# Prong collar - right age?



## AthenaClimbs

Hi there, I have a 5 month old female and my trainer said she's ready for a prong collar. I feel she may be too young as the bones in her neck are not fully developed. Any advice?

FYI- a prong is necessary for my girl, she still pulls the leash a bit and jumps on us all the time, especially outside.


----------



## doggiedad

a prong collar, ummm, i wonder what would training with
a flat collar turn out ot be??? is a prong necessary or is finding out the
correct way to train necessary?



AthenaClimbs said:


> Hi there, I have a 5 month old female and my trainer said she's ready for a prong collar. I feel she may be too young as the bones in her neck are not fully developed. Any advice?
> 
> FYI- a prong is necessary for my girl, she still pulls the leash a bit and jumps on us all the time, especially outside.


----------



## KZoppa

NO, your puppy is not old enough for a prong collar yet. The youngest recommended age for a prong collar is 6 months but its best to wait until the pup is older. Personally i wouldnt use one until at least 8 months old. Step up your training with your pup and enforce proper leash walking. Changing direction helped a great deal as well as changing up the routine for walks. We never just followed the same path so she didnt get the chance to get used to the entire routine of walks. We'd go one direction one day and a complete different direction another day. We also worked heavily on if she lost focus on me, i changed direction abruptly.

prong collars shouldnt be used on puppies whose neck muscles arent as developed. dont even consider a choke/slip chain because those will cause far more damage.


----------



## AthenaClimbs

the trainer said the prong collar will help train her to be more calm on a leash. She has really bad on leash walking habits.


----------



## KZoppa

AthenaClimbs said:


> the trainer said the prong collar will help train her to be more calm on a leash. She has really bad on leash walking habits.


 
sorry but your trainer is wrong. If you put a prong collar on your puppy, you are very likely to cause physical harm at this age. I speak from experience. if you put in the time and work on actual training, even if you have to take her out a few times a day and make random quick turns on a flat collar in a field and feel like a total dork doing it, you're doing it for a reason. If you are unpredictable in your turns with your puppy, she has to eventually learn to pay better attention to you.

I made the mistake of training my husband's dog using a prong when he was too young to wear one. He has trachea damage because his neck muscles werent strong enough. I've trained several other dogs to walk nicely on leash, puppies included without using a prong collar to do so. Try training a 90lb determined 4 year old bitch who didnt have prior training of any kind to walk nicely on the leash. She walks like a dream on leash now because she never knows when i'll change direction on her.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Here is another thread, just the other day: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...basic/170318-what-age-start-prong-collar.html


----------



## selzer

She is a puppy and needs to learn to walk at your side. Right now what is out and about and around is much more exciting than you are. I would not put a prong on a 5 month old puppy. But I won't use them on my older dogs either.


----------



## windwalker718

Nothing takes the place of time spent working with your dog. Prong and E collars are too often substituted by instructors as a quick fix to a problem that a few hours work would resolve. I have had class members whose dogs don't pay attention, and thus do not see cues to behavior. (or the handler doesn't give clear cues also). I find that taking 10 minutes doing nothing but heel and quick reverses, changes in directions, stops and changes in speed do quite well in getting a dog to pay attention and also begin heeling better. I used to play a game like Simon says with my own dogs to get happy quick responses. It keeps heeling fun and exciting instead of being a drag. Today many better trainers/instructors treat, or click and treat to increase speed of response.

The main time that I will use a prong collar is when a dog is too strong for me to physically handle. I have some physical issues (back and right shoulder) that make it hard to give strong dogs corrections. My WL dog is 2+ and when he first goes outdoors, or comes out of his crate, or the car he is a "bit" wild. So I'll use a prong for the first burst of energy, then go back to a slip or choke collar for training. He doesn't get "training" as such til he's had time to work off some of the TNT.:wild:


----------



## Anthony8858

AthenaClimbs said:


> the trainer said the prong collar will help train her to be more calm on a leash. She has really bad on leash walking habits.


No YOU have very bad leash walking habits.

Get into obedience school asap. Obedience school doesn't teach the dog to do things, they teach the owners how to handle their dogs.

There are lots of on leash practices, that will teach your dog to properly walk with you.


----------



## LaRen616

The trainer that I am going through at Tops Training told me my puppy is ready for a prong too, so she's 5 months old and first had the prong on her last tuesday. It made a HUGE difference.


----------



## GSDElsa

Every puppy is different. I had one on mine around 7 months. HOWEVER, it was not used for something like getting my puppy to walk normally on a leash. I use it specificially for enhancing behaviors such as communication when heeling, opposition training, etc. I think there are a lot better ways to traing a 5month old puppy to walk calmly on a leash than a prong collar.


----------



## LaRen616

GSDElsa said:


> Every puppy is different. I had one on mine around 7 months. HOWEVER, it was not used for something like getting my puppy to walk normally on a leash. I use it specificially for enhancing behaviors such as communication when heeling, opposition training, etc. I think there are a lot better ways to traing a 5month old puppy to walk calmly on a leash than a prong collar.


I agree with you but at the same time Malice is a beast on a leash, she will sit when I ask her too but she pulls like a full grown husky. I cant risk injury because I can only use my left arm and if it gets injured I am screwed. So Malice is on the prong, she listens better and she doesn't pull.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

LaRen616 said:


> The trainer that I am going through at Tops Training told me my puppy is ready for a prong too, so she's 5 months old and first had the prong on her last tuesday. It made a HUGE difference.


So now, the question is - what can you do to replicate this result through training and not a tool? This is where the best tool we have comes in - our brain. It will be amazing to you/for you to do this without the prong. Get in her head, motivate her to do for you what you want. It IS a lot harder, initially. After that, it's like having a shared language.


----------



## LaRen616

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> So now, the question is - what can you do to replicate this result through training and not a tool? This is where the best tool we have comes in - our brain. It will be amazing to you/for you to do this without the prong. Get in her head, motivate her to do for you what you want. It IS a lot harder, initially. After that, it's like having a shared language.


Because even the best trained dog will pull if they see something they want and I cant risk injury to myself. 

Yes I can train her to walk perfectly on leash but I would still put a prong on her for my safety.

My right arm is barely attached to my body, if I fall on it I will be in big trouble, if I injury my good arm then I am screwed because I wont be able to work, which means I wont have a job and then I am on the streets.


----------



## TechieDog

LaRen616 said:


> Because even the best trained dog will pull if they see something they want and I cant risk injury to myself.
> 
> Yes I can train her to walk perfectly on leash but I would still put a prong on her for my safety.
> 
> My right arm is barely attached to my body, if I fall on it I will be in big trouble, if I injury my good arm then I am screwed because I wont be able to work, which means I wont have a job and then I am on the streets.


There is nothing wrong with using a prong that way...that is what it is for.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

You could use a prong, you could use a front hook harness with success as well - my concern with both is that the dog could still pull the leash out of your hand if they are going to take off in the way you describe, and would say brush up on your "command voice" to protect your arms. So that if you give a good strong verbal they will stop. And I would still do the training part more than anything else because that will stop a dog from taking off on you too.


----------



## Franksmom

Each dog and each situation is different, make sure above all else you understand how to use it and it is a training tool, among many others.
I use prong collars and then advance to a flat martingale type collar (if we're out somewhere) or a chain if at a dog show.
Most of my pups have been between 6-8 months when I do start with a prong collar, I have had some that never needed one, It all depends on the dog, I would much rather teach someone to use a prong over a choke chain for training, I do not like choke chains, but that's me. 
I've also used Gentle leaders and had good luck with them too, I'm just not as crazy about them for training.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I have found the front clip harness to be a more effective training tool than the prong. I used a Sense-ation. My Basu pulled like an out of control steam engine (he was adopted at 4.5 and had never been leash walked) and I tried everything with him. The front clip was the only thing that really increased our communication because it self-corrected by pulling his body back towards me. The other thing I liked about it was that there was no risk of injury. The Sense-ation gave me control and also a sense of safety (I had several dogs who were lungers when I first adopted them). 

Since then I have trained all of my puppies and dogs with the Sense-ation harness. 

However, as everyone has pointed out, it is very important to come up with a training plan that teaches your dog to listen to you when walking instead of using the collar to tell them what to do. Rafi follows my body so that if I move left he will move left or if I make a sudden turn he follows without any sort of correction. He also knows commands like, "This way," "Easy," and "Back" so that I don't have to make corrections with the collar to get his attention. 

I used games to teach him all of these commands and also to teach him to stay close to me when walking.


----------



## Dooney's Mom

Franksmom said:


> Each dog and each situation is different, make sure above all else you understand how to use it and it is a training tool, among many others.
> I use prong collars and then advance to a flat martingale type collar (if we're out somewhere) or a chain if at a dog show.
> Most of my pups have been between 6-8 months when I do start with a prong collar, I have had some that never needed one, It all depends on the dog, I would much rather teach someone to use a prong over a choke chain for training, I do not like choke chains, but that's me.
> I've also used Gentle leaders and had good luck with them too, I'm just not as crazy about them for training.


Ditto- if you do use it make sure you have someone show you how to fit it, use it etc. I had to start using one on Dooney at about 7 months, and I have just started going back to a regular collar every 2 walks or so.


----------



## [email protected]

Hi,

I've been reading the GSD boards for awhile now and have read sage advice as well as patronizing close-minded advice. I am certainly not a 'dog whisperer' but I do know that different things work for different dog personalities. I used a prong collar on my 'slightly over 5 mos. old GSD' and it was like magic. We suddenly had a dog who listened and looked to my wife and I for direction. The difference was literally amazing. (newbies should go to a professional to learn to size and train with a prong collar).. We have read so many of the 'positive only' reinforcement books and they just didn't work with our female GSD. I grew up with dogs and raised a couple as an adult so I do have some experience / idea what I'm talking about. You can use a prong collar in a loving yet firm way to produce dramatic & desirable results. We are currently still using the prong collar on our 5 mo old GSD but judging by her behavior, we won't need it for much longer (and haven't used it for that long). I'm sure that I'll be disparaged by some of the close minded owners on this board but my advice is to do what works for your dog's personality in a firm but loving way. Good luck - GSDs are a wonderful breed!


----------



## ShepherdsNShelties

I have been following this thread,and I also have done so much reading and talking to trainers about the use of a prong. I do have a Herm prong collar,but right now Edge is obviously way to young.
But nothing beats good handling,and time working with the pup. I work with Edge on leash,and working on heeling,and basic commands. I do use a clicker,as that is how all my shelties have been trained. And used correctly & good timing, you can achieve any thing with clicker & high value treats.
Edge is now 11 weeks,and 3x a day for 10-15 minutes on flat leash,I work with him outside,walking close to fence lines. He is on the inside (close to fence). This has taught him proper positioning in heel position,and also has helped for when I stop abruptly,he knows where I want him,then he goes immediately into a sit/stay until I release with cue word. I do this also in turning,and changing directions.
It actually is just basic heel work,that a dog will learn in beginning rally stations. Communication with Edge,is superb.He is looking at me,and always in tune with my body language.


----------



## wolfy dog

ShepherdsNShelties said:


> I do use a clicker,as that is how all my shelties have been trained. And used correctly & good timing, you can achieve any thing with clicker & high value treats.
> .


That was my thinking too until my GSD male started to mature. Prior to him I had trained all my pups with just the clicker. But at one point it wasn't sufficient for control anymore with the GSDs. It taught me to be more open minded to other techniques and use what I needed to reach my goals.


----------



## Chip18

LaRen616 said:


> Because even the best trained dog will pull if they see something they want and I cant risk injury to myself.


Your particular situation is understood! 

But the above statement is not quite accurate!  

It kinda slams millions of "seeing eye dog's" let alone other service dogs, working for there handlers! 

I'm a pet person not a Pro but I have worked with enough "pullers" to understand that what I do is not a "fluke" "Deer Dog" was my most impressive result thus far. 

Opps out of time! At any rate also teach your dog a solid "Stay" emergency back up plan as it were.


----------



## Jax08

wow...super old thread


----------



## CaliGSD3

I think a knowledgeable and experienced trainer can use a prong on a younger dog in a gentle way with no issues. 
However I do think waiting till 6-8 months is great advice in general and especially to random people on the internet who are having basic training and control issues with their puppies. 

Especially because a lot of people will tend to use it as a miracle/quick fix collar because it's easy to use that way and skip through taking the time to truly train your pup develop your bond and connection, and improve your timing. It can be too easy with a prong collar to put a dog in a situation that is way above his thresholds for excitement where a prong collar just isn't going to get his attention in the right way... This can easily cause leash reactivity and other issues. 

Obviously there is no law of nature or magical age when it is or isn't okay to use a certain training tool for every dog and person. But this is good advice imo. Especially when it comes to people looking for training advice on the Internet.


----------



## mmrose

*Prong Collar*

I had a trainer who believed the prong collar should be used on puppies (think 3+ months). As our training progressed, I knew that was a mistake. The prong collar made his neck not sensitive and eventually he never responded to it. I think that you should wait to use it at least until he is 9 months or older and stick to positive reinforcement when they are young. I am doing that now and it works much better.


----------



## Chip18

Jax08 said:


> wow...super old thread


Oh, I see that now! I will carry on...still has value but I will refrain from using OP.


----------



## Chip18

CaliGSD3 said:


> I think a knowledgeable and experienced trainer can use a prong on a younger dog in a gentle way with no issues.
> However I do think waiting till 6-8 months is great advice in general and especially to random people on the internet who are having basic training and control issues with their puppies.
> 
> Especially because a lot of people will tend to use it as a miracle/quick fix collar because it's easy to use that way and skip through taking the time to truly train your pup develop your bond and connection, and improve your timing. It can be too easy with a prong collar to put a dog in a situation that is way above his thresholds for excitement where a prong collar just isn't going to get his attention in the right way... This can easily cause leash reactivity and other issues.
> 
> Obviously there is no law of nature or magical age when it is or isn't okay to use a certain training tool for every dog and person. But this is good advice imo. Especially when it comes to people looking for training advice on the Internet.


Hey...you pretty much nailed it! 

It's not about the "tool" it's about as was stated previously "getting inside your dogs head!"

Foundation principle is in the first clip I will post. If you get that down then you can walk "any dog" on a loose leash! 

I've done it enough times now to know it's not a fluke! Dogs that are said to be pullers and dogs that have never seen a leash in there lives! No problems...they my have other issues?? (Volunteer work) but walking on a leash (with me) was not one of them!

I started out with a prong collar years ago and jacked that up! So I went the other way, Flat Collar and Leash excellent results once I got the "loose leash thing" down. Then I used a Slip Leash for the first time at Boxer Rescue better and faster results still!!

In essence a prong on a puppy? No very few would suggest that on a very young puppy, most would suggest a Slip lead in any case!!

But if you get the "loose leash concept down" flat collar and leash, Prong, Slip Leash or a jump rope (had to corral a stray and walk him home...door dasher) only thing at hand was a jump rope.

None of those make any difference, all it takes is very little pressure! You control the dog with your presence not the tool! 

Clips can be found here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6821033-post5.html


----------



## onyx'girl

Chip18 said:


> Oh, I see that now! I will carry on...still has value but I will refrain from using OP.


so many of the posters on this thread have left the building.... I enjoy the resurrecting of old threads....they have useful information and should not be locked just because they are a few or several yrs old.


----------



## Chip18

Yes I've seen that also. I guess it shows the search function works for lots of folks?? My browser sittings shut it(search) down??

Have to go incognito to use search on this site for me.


----------



## Jax08

mmrose said:


> I had a trainer who believed the prong collar should be used on puppies (think 3+ months). As our training progressed, I knew that was a mistake. The prong collar made his neck not sensitive and eventually he never responded to it. I think that you should wait to use it at least until he is 9 months or older and stick to positive reinforcement when they are young. I am doing that now and it works much better.


It totally depends on how you use it. Seger was 4-5 months when it was put on him, paired with food and used to motivate rather than correct.


----------



## Findlay

Finn became almost impossible for me to walk him when he was 4 or 5 months.
His trainer recommended the h Sprenger prong collar and he's been wearing it for walks and training ever since.


----------



## WesS

Jax08 said:


> It totally depends on how you use it. Seger was 4-5 months when it was put on him, paired with food and used to motivate rather than correct.



How do you motivate a dog with a prong?

I think maybe communicate is a better word?


----------



## Jax08

Motivate was the right word. Thank you.


----------



## WesS

Jax08 said:


> Motivate was the right word. Thank you.



I asked how? As it stands I disagree. But if you could explain you might educate instead of being cryptic.

You gave advice to use a prong to motivate instead of correct. But you did not explain when asked.


----------



## Jax08

lol You didn't ask "why". You told me I had the wrong word. I'm not sure how you can disagree with something when you aren't there but ok.


----------



## Jax08

Findlay said:


> Finn became almost impossible for me to walk him when he was 4 or 5 months.
> His trainer recommended the h Sprenger prong collar and he's been wearing it for walks and training ever since.


have you ever read The Naughty Dogge blog? she has a great piece on loose leash walking. It works great with Seger. My girl worked great with releasing to the pressure of the collar but Seger's opposition reflex is to strong. He just pulls more. But what she does with swinging your arm is fantastic for him.


----------



## WesS

WesS said:


> How do you motivate a dog with a prong?
> 
> I think maybe communicate is a better word?






Jax08 said:


> lol You didn't ask "why". You told me I had the wrong word. I'm not sure how you can disagree with something when you aren't there but ok.



As you can see. I did ask. I also did not say your word was 'wrong'. I said: 'I think *maybe' * communication is a 'better' word.

My post was neither, attacking you or trying to 'disprove' you.

Was done with good intention. 

1) it gave my opinion in how I perceive the use of the prong.

2) it asked for you to explain yours

. I might learn something. Or not. Either way was communicating with you, not trying to pick a fight.

Respectfully.

I use it for corrections, and to give subtle guidance. 'Communicate' with light pressure.


----------



## Jax08

WesS said:


> I asked how? As it stands I disagree. But if you could explain you might educate instead of being cryptic.
> 
> You gave advice to use a prong to motivate instead of correct. But you did not explain when asked.


You are correct. And I won't. Let me explain why. I no longer answer queries phrased in a confrontational manner. I don't need to defend my position nor do I need to explain it. I no longer recommend breeders or trainers publicly. I no longer give specifics on training publicly. I did not give advice to do anything. I simply stated what I did with my puppy. I find the constant confrontational manner on this board exhausting and have no desire to engage in it.


----------



## WesS

Jax08 said:


> You are correct. And I won't. Let me explain why. I no longer answer queries phrased in a confrontational manner. I don't need to defend my position nor do I need to explain it. I no longer recommend breeders or trainers publicly. I no longer give specifics on training publicly. I did not give advice to do anything. I simply stated what I did with my puppy. I find the constant confrontational manner on this board exhausting and have no desire to engage in it.



Ok... But I wasn't being confrontational. Sorry if you think I was.

I post to add value where I can, and to learn also.


----------



## Baillif

Motivation is the correct word. A dog can be motivated by the desire to obtain something or the desire to avoid pressure. Using a prong as negative reinforcement to obtain a behavior accomplishes the same thing as using positive reinforcement to obtain the same behavior.

A prong used tactfully and properly can be used on puppies. Age is not a factor. If you do not know how to use a prong you shouldn't use it on any dog no matter what their age. People always spout the same 5-7 month dribble, and that's exactly what it is.


----------



## WesS

Baillif said:


> Motivation is the correct word. A dog can be motivated by the desire to obtain something or the desire to avoid pressure. Using a prong as negative reinforcement to obtain a behavior accomplishes the same thing as using positive reinforcement to obtain the same behavior.
> 
> A prong used tactfully and properly can be used on puppies. Age is not a factor. If you do not know how to use a prong you shouldn't use it on any dog no matter what their age. People always spout the same 5-7 month dribble, and that's exactly what it is.


That's not the definition of motivation. And I am quite fine using a prong safely and effectively on my dogs. 

Your answer is a personal attack. Anyways I found a better answer here. Thanks for another subsequent post adding no value.

Here is a good answer for those who want to understand better, how it can motivate, because nobody wants to say anything for some strange reason. Maybe insecure in the reasons they act, and can't justify. Just do. I'm my book that's worse than not knowing how to use an application of tool. Part of it is just English vocabulary. Motivate drive to purposeful action is a much better explanation. 

"Corrections that Add Drive to the Dog
It may seem like a contradiction to say that a correction can add drive to a dog, but in fact that�s exactly what can happen when done properly.

To add drive, multiple corrections must be given very successively and quickly. They don't need to be "take your head off" corrections. Light little pops on the leash can have a positive effect.

When this is done during heeling it will bring a dog up in drive. In essence what happens is the dog's nerves are turned on. This means it becomes excited because the handler is saying NO! NO! NO! Pop! Pop! Pop! with the leash (or remote trainer). These low level corrections elevate the dog�s level of excitement (or concern). These multiple corrections cause the dog to quickly move into compliance."

Source: http://leerburg.com/corrections.htm


----------



## Baillif

It is very clear you do not know the definition of motivation.

You are not even entirely versed on the meaning of the word correction. If me pointing out your lack of knowledge is your idea of a personal attack you don't even know the definition of a personal attack.


----------



## WesS

Baillif said:


> It is very clear you do not know the definition of motivation.
> 
> You are not even entirely versed on the meaning of the word correction. If me pointing out your lack of knowledge is your idea of a personal attack you don't even know the definition of a personal attack.


Way you are describing it. The correct English word is avoidance. You just like to use motivation for marketing purposes.

Again the explanation on leerburg is great. Thank you leerburg. 
He clearly is showing how it can get dog into arousal mode, pay attention. Build drive, by waking into action (pay attention).


----------



## Baillif

I don't market anything. Motivation can come in the form of avoidance.


----------



## nezzz

I believe with time and patience you won't need to use a prong collar. I've not used a prong collar on my dog for a long time now. She's 16 months old now and doesn't pull on leash and fools about anymore. Its taken a while for me to train out those bad habits from her but it does work. There's still some bad habits remaining, but nothing that can't be corrected with a little more training.

Even as a positive tool, no dog will take long term to a prong collar long term though it may be used correctly. I've seen dogs do really good work while on prong, but they're not happy working. They're working not because they love it, but because they don't want to be corrected. Sure you get the same end result with or without a prong, a dog obeying your commands. But the difference is if the dog is happy or not while working.

Thats why rather than immediately slipping on a prong for new puppy owners, I rather them work on the problem long term instead of relying on a quick fix. Reason why puppies aren't doing what you tell them to is because they aren't bonded with you enough. Trained properly, a puppy should find you more interesting than that patch of grass with a new smell because you provide more stimulation to them with toys and games.


----------



## wolfy dog

Baillif said:


> Motivation is the correct word. A dog can be motivated by the desire to obtain something or the desire to avoid pressure. Using a prong as negative reinforcement to obtain a behavior accomplishes the same thing as using positive reinforcement to obtain the same behavior.
> 
> A prong used tactfully and properly can be used on puppies. Age is not a factor. If you do not know how to use a prong you shouldn't use it on any dog no matter what their age. People always spout the same 5-7 month dribble, and that's exactly what it is.


I agree, if that helps 
A fair correction with a prong is not any different than stopping when a dog pulls. Both are a negative to the dog. It is us that have problems with that, not the dogs. I have come to realize that positive only is not always the answer. But this is only once the dog has learned the desire behavior and decides to disobey for some reason.


----------



## Baillif

If you really want in on a little secret. A dog trained with a prong done right will do work just as happily for one that does everything for treats. Get your head around that. If you really understood dogs you would know why.


----------



## Chip18

Baillif said:


> If you really want in on a little secret. A dog trained with a prong done right will do work just as happily for one that does everything for treats. Get your head around that. If you really understood dogs you would know why.


 WOW big day for me! Finally after two years, I don't have to struggle to understand a "concept" your trying to explain!

Happy prong free dog vs sad prong dog... is prong done wrong! Any tool improperly used can be abused! 

I get how you could use a prong collar on a puppy. I also get why it is not usually advised! Most folks can't do it and an older stronger puppy gives them a built in "safety factor??"

I believe going out on a limb here...the "problem" with a prong is it can be used to put drive in a dog as well as take drive out?? A matter of degree as it were.

Next time I'm at rescue, I'll have to take a "puller" on a walk with a regular harness and see how that goes???


----------



## WesS

Chip18 said:


> WOW big day for me! Finally after two years, I don't have to struggle to understand a "concept" your trying to explain!
> 
> Happy prong free dog vs sad prong dog... is prong done wrong! Any tool improperly used can be abused!
> 
> I get how you could use a prong collar on a puppy. I also get why it is not usually advised! Most folks can't do it and an older stronger puppy gives them a built in "safety factor??"
> 
> I believe going out on a limb here...the "problem" with a prong is it can be used to put drive in a dog as well as take drive out?? A matter of degree as it were.
> 
> Next time I'm at rescue, I'll have to take a "puller" on a walk with a regular harness and see how that goes???



The point is that understanding a prong is an avoidance tool when used as corrective measure, means you are liberal in its use. It means you can better respect the tool and the dog.

It means you rely more rewards for 'motivation' rather than a prong. Some people will read that a prong is for motivation here and go about using the tool all wrong.


----------



## Baillif

Stick to what you know instead of what you think you know.


----------



## Jax08

Chip18 said:


> WOW big day for me! Finally after two years, I don't have to struggle to understand a "concept" your trying to explain!
> 
> Happy prong free dog vs sad prong dog... is prong done wrong! Any tool improperly used can be abused!
> 
> I get how you could use a prong collar on a puppy. I also get why it is not usually advised! Most folks can't do it and an older stronger puppy gives them a built in "safety factor??"
> 
> I believe going out on a limb here...the "problem" with a prong is it can be used to put drive in a dog as well as take drive out?? A matter of degree as it were.
> 
> Next time I'm at rescue, I'll have to take a "puller" on a walk with a regular harness and see how that goes???


oh Ugh! Send me a PM and I'll explain how, when and why to you. You all are just arguing over something without knowing the specifics.


----------



## Chip18

WesS said:


> The point is that understanding a prong is an avoidance tool when used as corrective measure, means you are liberal in its use. It means you can better respect the tool and the dog.
> 
> It means you rely more rewards for 'motivation' rather than a prong. Some people will read that a prong is for motivation here and go about using the tool all wrong.


Nope, folks have plenty of ways of getting a prong wrong! They don't need to come here!

Ten years ago ,I half way read a book on using a prong and decided I knew what I was doing with a prong! My first dog proved me wrong! So I did a 180 and went back to what I was first shown...15 years ago,which is the first video clip I posted!

I decided I knew better than the trainer my first dog said...yeah not so much!!! Back to basics! Loose leash training!! And at that... I am now very, very good! Prong, flat collar and leash, Slip lead leash or a jump rope!

It makes no difference! It's about the handler not the tool! 

I've also found that it does not service "the greater good" for people that "*know what they are doing to argue with each other*!!" No one benefits! I try not to do that myself and I point it out when I see it...just my thing!  

As I say, I train with a slip lead leash, it seems fairly simple and straight forward to me?? But if you look at Pros that train dogs for a living and have clients that they "need" to transfer "information to" by and large they teach a "prong collar" personally I don't get it??? But it does seem to be the case??


----------



## Chip18

Jax08 said:


> oh Ugh! Send me a PM and I'll explain how, when and why to you. You all are just arguing over something without knowing the specifics.


PM sent.


----------



## Findlay

Jax08 said:


> have you ever read The Naughty Dogge blog? she has a great piece on loose leash walking. It works great with Seger. My girl worked great with releasing to the pressure of the collar but Seger's opposition reflex is to strong. He just pulls more. But what she does with swinging your arm is fantastic for him.


Jax. Thanks. I will look at the Naughty Dog Blog (probably see a pic of Finn there) : )

I do have to side with WesS re motivation vs communication.
At least for me the prong is a means of communication. I've learned to use it very gently to send a reminder to Finn ie it's not ok to look at that dog or jogger or person on a bike. 
And it's just a small movement of my wrist (the way his trainer taught me) But that movement sends a message to him and I know that he gets the message because he ignores whatever it is I'm reminding him to ignore.
If he chooses not to ignore, then I correct him.

I don't think the prong hurts a dog.
Finn has never yelped or cowered while out on a walk or during training.


----------



## Jax08

Findlay said:


> I do have to side with WesS re motivation vs communication.


Okay


----------



## selzer

No dog _needs_ a prong collar. No dog _needs _treats. Some handlers need one or the other or both. If you can communicate effectively with your dog, than you _need_ neither. Crutches and training wheels -- can they help you get from here to there? Sure. Can they create bad habits, other issues? Sure. 

I don't understand why proponents of the prong collar have to diss those who don't use them, belittling them for using treats, etc. If using a prong collar helps you to communicate effectively with your dog and gives you the results you want, then knock yourself out. If treats does it for you, go for it, have a blast. Get out there with your dog and train, whatever the tools, crutches, training wheels, etc. 

My hope for you all is that you come to that sweet spot where your body language is enough to let your new pup know what it is you want. Why is it that a good trainer can take the leash of a dog they have never met before and get it to sit or down or heel with a minimum of effort, while the class and owners look on dumbfounded? The dog is a dog is a dog is a dog, and the training is for us. We learn to communicate with the dog. 

Yes, yes, dogs have different strengths, weaknesses, drive, intelligence, desire to work with the human/handler/owner. Sure. But with a little good leadership, the dog will follow a reasonable and consistent owner/handler. And such an owner will be tuned in to their dog enough to understand what motivation is necessary, and what communication style is most effective, and can adjust to suit the dog. 

The use of the tools does not bother me. What bothers me is the dependence on the tools and the how strongly and sometimes viciously they are defended.


----------

