# drive and bite problems



## bravo-05 (Apr 6, 2015)

I have a dog that is a lower drive dog. He is still young at 1.5 years old. He usually bites full and when the pillow or tug is released to him after a good bite he will run around with it a bit and mouth it and drop it. 

I am trying to increase his possession by trying to pull the tug out of his mouth which makes him bite down harder, but he then releases it soon after.

1) what can I do to increase his drive in general? I frustrate him by making him miss bites on tugs and balls but it is as if his drive will only stay at a certain level even when i try using my "happy voice" to encourage him.

2) how can I make him keep the tug or pillow after a bite (i run with him but he still drops it). (*we havent moved on to the sleeve yet)

thx!!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Are you working with a helper?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah this is a thing you go to an expert training helper to deal with.


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## bravo-05 (Apr 6, 2015)

There are helpers at my club but I am open to everyone s opinions and past experiences. I figured it could not hurt to see if someone on this board had these specific issues.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

best to work with experienced helpers who can read the dog instead of trying to glean advice from people who aren't able to view what is going on.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is hard to make recommendations without seeing the dog and the work. It could be the dog is not being brought up to its optimum level of drive. It could be the dog is not being worked in the right drive. It could be the dog doesn't have what is needed for the sport. 

Not all dogs carry well. I have a female that doesn't always carry well especially if the helper doesn't have her in the right mind set when he slips. It is who she is. 

I would not allow your dog to mouth the pillow. Minute he isn't holding well he is told to out. You may also be asking him to carry for too long so he is dropping too far in drive.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm with the others. Work with an experienced helper/decoy. Can't give accurate advise without seeing the dog.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Let me explain you something what you must probably have supposed yourself. That what you can see on the sports ground (a fight) is not what is in reality for your dog and definitely not what is in his head.
During the fight there is a competition between a decoy and the dog. The prey is not a sleeve, but the decoy himself. The decoy represents a buffalo, and the sleeve represents a piece of meat with fur ripped off him. You are - a member of the pack, wolves hunt in packs, when one bites - the other one distracts the victim and gives certain signals to his companion. That is the formula. When you send your dog onto decoy - he will hold as long as "the piece of meat" is not going, but ready to release. But if you start walking towards the decoy - your dog would squeeze his jaws harder, because your close proximity would indicate that you are going to join him in biting, so you would rip "the buffalo" apart together. Everything dog does - is an instinct, everything dog learns - is unnatural for him, he learns to fight together with another animal, that is human, that is you. Your task is to teach him fighting your way. But for the reason it could be helpful for you to watch videos with wolves hunting, try to understand their cooperative movements.
When you play with your dog you just help him to strengthen his jaw muscles. Thus young cubs pull a deer leg out of each other's mouth when prey was brought back to the den, thus two puppies play with a stick or some toy, they want to have it each for himself only. If your dog drops this "piece of meat" - he does it for you, say, he sacrifices precious object for the stronger, because he minds you stronger than him and because he loves you. In such plays a dog who minds himself equal with his master would hold for longer, play more vigorously. And, the dog who minds himself stronger than his master - would never give up before he grabs the object all just for himself. It doesn't mean that the dog will behave in the same manner with a decoy.
Please, don't worry. You simply need to work with professionals. It is time to join the club.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wait...What?


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## bravo-05 (Apr 6, 2015)

Thx for the reply David 

So you believe that because I am the alpha he is in conflict and wants to leave the sleeve to me?

Not sure I follow because every handler should be the alpha


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Only advice that can be given without seeing the dog is DONT LISTEN to that David guy..


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Dances with IPO wolves..... :shrug:



Jax08 said:


> Wait...What?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

bravo-05 said:


> Thx for the reply David
> 
> So you believe that because I am the alpha he is in conflict and wants to leave the sleeve to me?
> 
> Not sure I follow because every handler should be the alpha


You read that??


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Of course the handler is alpha. That is what is going on during the hunt: the pack leader is preparing to go for buffalo's throat while "bettas" are holding him on from sides and on his muzzle. It is important for decoy not to frighten the young dog the very first times, some wolves never go for big prey again once they understood the strength of that animal. But, we cannot see Schutz only through the prism of pack hunting, because wolves rob other big predators as well. Very well you can look at decoy as a lion, sleeve - killed by him antelope, and the dog with his handler - two hyenas. If a bear steps into the territory of a wolf pack - they might attack and eat him (often happens with young bears). Everything in dogs is an instinct of a predator, and without understanding their natural behaviour you would never understand how Schutzhund protection works. It is a THEATRE!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

bravo-05 said:


> I have a dog that is a lower drive dog. He is still young at 1.5 years old. He usually bites full and when the pillow or tug is released to him after a good bite he will run around with it a bit and mouth it and drop it.
> 
> I am trying to increase his possession by trying to pull the tug out of his mouth which makes him bite down harder, but he then releases it soon after.
> 
> ...


Well, when you describe him as lower drive that's a limit on everything right there. But just a couple ideas, maybe quit trying to increase possession, quit ripping it away from him. Between that and maybe getting carried away with the misses, you may be leaving him thinking there's no sense in trying.

Try playing some tug, you release it and encouraging him to come forward to you to play some more. If you out him, let him re-bite again right away. See if that will carry over to when you're working with the helper. Call him to you when the helper lets him have the pillow for a little play with you, maybe turn that into a cradle. See what the helpers think about some of that.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Puppy would compete with his superior companion (handler) when he is young, just like all puppies compete between each other for a dead rabbit their mother brings them. Closer to one year of age young canines learn to hunt themselves, understanding who is the leader and who is the secondary to copy the leader reflects in dog's interest to certain objects like a rope or a ball on rope, pillow, etc. Not all dogs would compete with the leader for possession, it is simply not natural for a young canine at that age , but they would compete with that stranger, who, they think, is weaker, has no rights to remove a precious object from them. That is what the decoy does at the beginning of training - he pretends to be weaker, canning, teasing, provoking, like a wiked thief. It is called "puppy conditioning". I do not believe in Schutz training without decoy/helper, and have never heard that someone has achieved a good bite from a dog who doesn't want to compete with his owner.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't disagree with David, but I think his explanation is hard to understand for a novice in reading and training dogs. The best thing, imo, is to get under tutelage of good training director which could or could not be the decoy. There are practice/trial decoys and there are training decoys, though a person can be both, often today they are seperate....you need a training decoy. A dog can usually be taught to " carry" along the way of " developing" the grip. I call it foundation work, which sometimes takes a fairly long time for lower drive or high defense dogs.....but it can be done. I just did it with two nice high defense Czech dogs and it took about 3/4 months just working on that phase and nothing else....now the dogs are ready for graduating pressure to be applied to occaison. But you really need someone to see the dog that can assess and come up with best approach.


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## bravo-05 (Apr 6, 2015)

thanks for all the info. I am working with helpers at my club. I just wanted to know if any of you have gone through something similar and had success with "something" that you have done. 

i figured that with all these users there is a greater wealth of knowledge than any one helper can have. 

I'm not looking for a quick fix. Just looking for experienced opinions.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

smh




cliffson1 said:


> I don't disagree with David, but I think his explanation is hard to understand for a novice in reading and training dogs. The best thing, imo, is to get under tutelage of good training director which could or could not be the decoy. There are practice/trial decoys and there are training decoys, though a person can be both, often today they are seperate....you need a training decoy. A dog can usually be taught to " carry" along the way of " developing" the grip. I call it foundation work, which sometimes takes a fairly long time for lower drive or high defense dogs.....but it can be done. I just did it with two nice high defense Czech dogs and it took about 3/4 months just working on that phase and nothing else....now the dogs are ready for graduating pressure to be applied to occaison. But you really need someone to see the dog that can assess and come up with best approach.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Are you shaking you head up and down or side to side


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOLOL!! 


Cliff, David Taggert and Buffalo and wolves..... 

Nooooooo, not you... :help:





cliffson1 said:


> Are you shaking you head up and down or side to side


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

After reading another post about DDR and Soviet bloc GS, I am beginning to see the light.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Bravo---- Just jumping into this discussion from a reader's perspective I can tell you from personal experience owning what appeared to be a low drive wlgsd that his nature/toy/prey/fight/defense drives totally changed by doing a couple of things.... But like most every one else who didn't go all "pack" on you I would advise you to find a good trainer for what ever you are trying to do with your dog.. (PP. IPO, Ring, KNPV, K9 etc.)
If your dog has lots of toys, tugs, balls etc around the house, in his kennel or where ever, take them all away from him and totally stop playing with them and him for a week. Every time he begs you to play w/him ignore him for the whole week.. If he has any drive he should be pretty much nuts at the end of the week..
After the week, once a day play with him with the tugs or ball on a rope but never enough to satisfy his play/work drive. The toys should only be a reward for good work from this point on until you are satisfied with his drives... By that time you should be working with a trainer, the dog will realize why he has toys and tugs etc. and know how to please you to get to play with them... Holding on to the tug can be taught, he just has to win all the time to gain that kind of drive... Chase him with the tug in his mouth, make it a game... Remember, you want the dog to develop into an Alpha Male not a pack buddy. A good trainer will be able to bring out those traits regardless of what your dog appears to be now. Once he moves on to the sleeve and your trainer brings out both the pray and defense drives and Jr. begins to mature he should surprise you. Remember he is just a kid now and you need to build up his alpha self confidence.. 
Good Luck,, Have fun with him...

Phil


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## bravo-05 (Apr 6, 2015)

Thx Phil!!!! I am training for Shutz and he has no toys around the house,,,,,,,only his bone to chew on. He only plays with me and that's when they come out. Maybe I am training him too much (every day several times a day) and should do what you say, avoid play for a while. I think that is a great suggestion and is exactly the type of advice I am looking for. THX!!!


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## t.lesniak (Jan 4, 2010)

how does the buffalo theory work in a dog with low/no prey drive, but is instead driven by defense?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Is there really any border line that puts apart two concepts as "attack" and "defense" ? "The best defence is an attack" - that works for protection as well. This mechanism would be switched on much later in training, when the dog already could be easily engaged, outs well, and comes back without hesitation. So, don't confuse OP by starting from the end.
At the moment he has to revive natural instinct in his dog. Some dogs like to compete with the owner, some don't. The story could be different with experienced decoy, when OP will stand on one side with other young GSDS barking and lunging. Dogs tend to copy dogs, not always their owners (LOL). The presence of other dogs will defenitely help. And, if decoy will achieve nothing - only then you can say that prey drive is too weak to bother about training.


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## IconsDad (Apr 16, 2015)

Bravo, your first question "How do I increase drive" I would ask what drive are you or the helpers trying to get out of him? Prey or Defense? Also you mention that you work him everyday so by missed bites you are not frustrating him as he knows he is going to do the same thing tomorrow.

Second question you asked "how can I make him keep the tug or pillow after a bite". If he hasn't figured out the game and wants to hold it, keep it by this age then you need to change the game and or get a GSD from working lines. IMO


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