# Coyote as a pet?



## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

I recently joined a neighborhood forum. I just came across a post of someone in a community not even a mile away from me posting that their pet coyote is missing! Further down the forum few people in that community posted about spotting a coyote, 1 person claiming that it ate a small dog. Is having a coyote as a pet legal? How safe would that be? There is a pic showing this coyote sniffing a nose of a small child. Thoughts? :surprise:


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

A wild animal can never be a PET, it took decades to domesticate dogs, probably hundreds of years of selective breeding before they are even actual pets. There are still people breeding to make dogs that are more and more docile. 

I sure am interested in owning a wolf or wolfdog, but I would NEVER force it to live the life of a house pet. There are plenty of wolfdog rescues because people try to do this and it doesn't work out. It is the same exact issue with coydogs and coyotes.

This is not like taking in a fawn and raising it, hand feeding it and loving on it, because deer are herbivores/prey. A deer would essentially be like a goat, and people don't (normally) take goats on car rides, walks and share meals in the same room with them. People do that with dogs, and wolves and coyotes do not end up like dogs.

Letting this animal around kids is very irresponsible no matter how trustworthy the owner thinks it is. I know my dog is good with kids but I still am cautious with him.

As far as legalities it depends on your area, but in my area it's not very difficult to get a permit to own a wild animal, depending on the animal, lots of people here own wolves, haven't met anyone with a tiger. Call your local police department, there's usually a 'receptionist' who can answer questions and note your concerns to have someone look into it.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Legalities will depend on several things including state and city ordinances (do you need liability insurance, what kind of licensing [USDA?]) as well as regulations put on specific neighborhoods, etc. It's probably not what I would call safe. I have a degree in large carnivore studies and actually raised wolves at the International Wolf Center while I was in college, and I've never advocated for keeping wild animals as pets. Even wolfdogs make me nervous, but if they come from lines far removed from properly "wild" wolves and the right people own them (educated people who have made proper accommodations,)...to each their own, I guess.

Coyotes are even more flighty than wolves and have extremely high prey drives when it comes to small animals. I'd think about reporting the person. If they've truly "domesticated" the animal, that basically means they've socialized it and lowered the animals natural instinct to stay away from people, only emboldening it so that it feels safe going after small dogs in the neighborhood.

Out here in North Texas we have coyotes all over the place and they're becoming a big nuisance, going after dogs and cats. Trying to keep one as a "pet" is not the best idea.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Illinois


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I wonder if it is just a troll trying to get a rise out of people. Have you seen that facebook thing where the person photoshopped a coyote on the couch with their toddler texting the huband saying "look at the dog we found, can we keep it?"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Interesting ... most likely as time goes by "it will happen??" There is always that guy. But without a permit ... in "NV" it is illegal. Wild Animals belong to the state. But ..."NV" you know kinda the "Whatever" state ...here's your permit ... good luck ...most likely ... see you in court down the road???

As has been stated ... domesticating a "Wild Animal" ... is not a good idea??? Wolves and Wolf Dog Hybrids have a long sad history of fails. No reason to think that Coyotes or CoyDogs would not turn out the same way??  

Some people can't even train/control "Dogs!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

kimbale said:


> If they've truly "domesticated" the animal, that basically means they've socialized it and lowered the animals natural instinct to stay away from people, only emboldening it so that it feels safe going after small dogs in the neighborhood.


That is already happening "Coyotes" are everywhere. I saw one at our local Quickie Mart one night and I suspect ... "Rockyed saw or sensed them one night on walk?? 

Off leash and on point ...he did the ear alert thing as he peered into the darkness ... he looked at me once and turned around and headed for home! I looked into the darkness and saw or heard nothing??? But I followed him home.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If it's local, do you know anyone who knows the person to find out if it's true?


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## ghinchcl (Mar 2, 2017)

My opinion is definitely should not be taking in a coyote for their family's safety as well as the neighbors. To me this a big ***** to all the neighbors and pretty much saying we do not care about anyone's else's safety. If they rescued a baby they should have brought it to the state and let them handle the situation. If I was to see a coyote I would shoot it and not think twice. Think about you family and neighbors. Total disregard for anyone else.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

They're around, in some states. If you go to bird & game breeder swaps / meetings, you'll meet people who are into keeping these types of animals. 

The fact that they're sharing pictures in public venues makes me doubt they're responsible and careful people... the individuals I know who are legally involved with wild animals (wolves/mixes, raptors, etc) tend to be VERY private as they do NOT want to attract unwanted attention. Posting pictures like that screams for attention and problems....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I wouldn't ever think about having one as a pet and I'm pretty sure I would turn someone in if they did-it's just not safe.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I believe in leaving the wild, wild. Not many baby wild animals raised as pets do well once they are mature because actual domestication involves massive genetic changes that are passed on to offspring, and so actual domestication is much more than just "taming" an animal. 

Even the chimp raised with the family as a child would be, and taught sign language, was not able to stay in the house once she reached sexual maturity. 

Part of what makes our dogs, domestic, is that there aren't many major changes when they reach sexual maturity. Yes, I know there are some changes in a sexually mature dog, but they are minor compared to, say, the changes in a less domesticated animal like a bull (cattle) or a completely undomesticated animal like a hyena. 

Sad fact, there are more tigers as "pets" in the United States than there are currently wild in India/China/Russia. I still have a hard time wrapping my head around that.

If you want a dog that resembles in appearance a coyote, get one, there are a few choices out there and all are domesticated and would make fine pets. I actually like coyotes, and totally respect their adaptations to life in cities and suburbs, but that does not mean I want one as a pet.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I agree with Muskeg. I still hold a captive wildlife license, I've been involved with different groups/efforts in the past, some things are a constant battle and no one "wins".

My personal opinion? Leave them be. But there are people - some legally, others illegally - who think otherwise.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww well people do stuff if on,e is determined to be that different and they think they are ... good enough ... here you go.:

Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Dog Breed Information and Pictures

I heard those guys can easily run 35 to 50 miles in a day ... so good luck to the "Exercise solves all fans" ... just saying.


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

A few family members/neighbors have had raccoons, fawns, opossums, and squirrels as pets but not sure about a coyote. It is all fine and cute when they are babies but once they mature and get to about the age they want to mate all **** breaks loose. They just get mean and unpredictable. The raccoons and opossums always bite someone, bad, for seemingly no reason. I would think raising any wild animal would be a bad idea. 
If being concerned for you own well being is not enough you also need to think of the animal. Not only will they be completely dependent on you but most places it's illegal and if the authorities find out about your illegal pet most states have laws stating that the animal will be destroyed. Here's a recent story of someone's pet deer being killed by wildlife authorities, the video is really disturbing, I wouldn't recommend watching it. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...that-kept-it-as-a-pet/?utm_term=.171f2b16b370


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If it's local, do you know anyone who knows the person to find out if it's true?


No, I dont know anyone in that community to be able to find out if it's real or not. I'll post the pic of the coyote and girl.
@WIBackpacker, I agree with you, licensed people wouldn't be advertising the fact of having a coyote plus I would think they be more responsible on letting the coyote escape! No apologies or warnings about the animal, post just says help, pet coyote missing. The post also has name of person plus number to reach them, so why fake it? 

I don't like when people just decide to "raise a wildlife animal as a pet" it's so unfair to the animal. The animal suffers and so does habitats that they are sometimes released in when the animal gets out of control!


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

That little girl is sitting very quietly with her hands on her legs. No move towards touching the coyote. Her posture is very straight up, no leaning in to it. That to me says a lot.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm guessing it is fake, though. Coyotes make really terrible pets.

People who say they will shoot any coyote they see --- why? Read up on coyote biology. The more they are prosecuted- hunted, trapped, poisoned- the more they reproduce. More females will have more babies more often. That means more young adolescent coyotes out there who are more likely to get in trouble with people- kill chickens, kill pets, and the like. If you just leave the coyotes alone, their numbers will be the same because they won't reproduce at such high rates. And there will be fewer juveniles out there to get into trouble. Older, savvy coyotes aren't going to let themselves be seen by people, or get into trouble with humans and their pets. 

Look where year-round open season on coyotes have gotten us- coy-wolves and coyotes all the way along the east coast, in our suburbs and cities at higher numbers than ever, and doing very well in the rural areas as well. Clearly, this "only good coyote is a dead coyote" management strategy is not a solution! I hate to hear people say they'll shoot any coyote they see. It's just bad management of wildlife, first, it has led to lots of cruelty with trapping and poisoning, second (that kills many non-target species including our pets), and people like this often end up shooting the neighbor's German shepherd that "looks like a coyote". Ugh.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I never heard of a coyote as a pet. Is it legal? I have heard some people keep dingos as pets and its legal.


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## Suki's Mom (Nov 24, 2008)

I used to follow the blog "The Daily Coyote", and have read the book by the same name. The author raised a 10-day old coyote puppy after its parent were killed (and Charlie still lives with her). However, she realized that he is not a pet. I remember her writing about the time that he almost attached her one night, and she had to set boundaries (no more sleeping in her bedroom, etc.). And this is after she hand raised him!


The Daily Coyote » About Us


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

You could always report them to animal control. Local animal control is who this would fall under. They handle issues with domestic and wild animals.

Out here in North Texas they are who we call when the coyotes start getting too close. My best friend and her husband have a house with a backyard that backs up onto a greenbelt and beyond that is a lake. The coyotes patrol that area regularly and we often see them beyond the backyard. They've been known to try and get at people's dogs and when they become too bold we have to call animal control.

Also saw a cougar and an alligator out there.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

This is Chicago--Animal Control can't even keep up with strays, I do not see them being of any help with a coyote.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

ghinchcl said:


> My opinion is definitely should not be taking in a coyote for their family's safety as well as the neighbors. To me this a big FU to all the neighbors and pretty much saying we do not care about anyone's else's safety. If they rescued a baby they should have brought it to the state and let them handle the situation. If I was to see a coyote I would shoot it and not think twice. Think about you family and neighbors. Total disregard for anyone else.


They are there for a reason and serve a purpose in the environment. Wild coyotes and wolves pose no threat to humans. An LGD would be a much more reasonable solution to the threat they pose to livestock.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> They are there for a reason and serve a purpose in the environment. Wild coyotes and wolves pose no threat to humans. An LGD would be a much more reasonable solution to the threat they pose to livestock.


I don't think any and all coyotes need to be shot because, as you noted, they do serve a purpose in the environment. But they do need to be _managed_ (just like any predator) because they do impact local livestock and other animal populations. Part of that management is good fencing, guardian animals (like you mentioned) and other passive measures. And part of it entails hunting and trapping, especially in preparation for the spring birthing season, when newborn animals (wild and domesticated alike) are most vulnerable. 

Also, that claim about how wolves and coyote aren't a threat to humans is way too simplistic. Wolves, for the most part, don't inhabit the same lands as humans so they rarely cross paths with us. But in areas where they are abundant (Alaska, western Canada, Great Lakes area) there have been instances of them attacking and killing lone humans as well as attempting to corner and isolate others. They are naturally wary of humans, but that doesn't preclude them from trying to make a meal out of us if they see an opportunity. The same applies, to a lesser degree, to coyotes. If they see a lone child or otherwise vulnerable human, they will try to exploit that opportunity. In fact, there was a recent incident where a young woman was attacked and killed by coyotes up in Canada. 

Now I'm not saying that to try and drum up fear and demonize these predators. People traveling in groups or taking the right precautions should be fine while out visiting coyote or wolf territory. But these are opportunistic predators we are talking about here...if they see an opportunity for an easy meal, they will take it.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Lots of people who have never actually had dealings with coyotes have strong opinions about coyotes. Some of these opinions are informed, some are not.

There are an awful lot of sable dogs on here. All of our sable dogs were lanky, out-of-coat youngsters at some point. Fear-mongering and spreading paranoia about coyotes is a bad, bad idea.

We do not need trigger happy idiots staring down the barrel at our dogs.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The thing is, "standard" methods of predator control - hunting, trapping, poisoning- have been shown again and again to utterly fail and actually cause more harm than good. Just killing coyotes actually increases negative interactions with humans and their pets or livestock. This applies to coyotes, specifically. Clearly, gray wolves and mountain lions are far more vulnerable to these types of controls, as both have been extirpated from most of their former range in the lower 48. (although cougars are also moving east again). 

Despite active campaigns to eliminate them, coyotes have thrived, increased in size, interbred with wolves, and settled in to the suburbs and cities of the east coast. 

Rather, we should be looking at alternative means of control, which would allow the older, smart, human-savvy females to pass on these traits to their young and so on. Hazing with LGDs, donkeys, is one alternative. 

Killing the animals, just out of some sort of hatred of predators, has failed and will continue to fail. It actually creates a bigger coyote problem. If we are going to manage predators, it's time we caught up with the times and research and actually managed them effectively. 

This isn't an issue of liking or disliking coyotes, it's a matter of what actually works to meet the needs of the public and farmers when they have problems with coyotes. Just killing coyotes is not the scientific approach and clearly does not work! 

Given the fact that coyotes live, breed, and thrive in the suburbs of many major cities, and there have been next to no attacks on people, the risk of attack on a human is quite rare, far rarer than attack on human by domestic dog.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> We do not need trigger happy idiots staring down the barrel at our dogs.]


That goes for our black GSDs looking like wolves or wolfdogs too. If they get lost and wonder onto someone's property, I feel they have less of a chance of surviving than other, non wolfy dogs. I bought an orange reflective collar for when we are out in the woods because of this. People will shoot at anything, probably best staying out of the woods during hunting season all together.


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

I like live and let live. I certainly don't have anything against wild coyotes and their habitat. They exist around here, but you don't see them. My thing with this one being a "pet" and on the loose now is that he might be fine with the people who raised him and may not be fine with other humans. With anyone in the community and nearby knowing about this coyote might decide to try and catch it, succeed, only to find out the hard way that it's not so friendly to them or their animals. What happens then? One real possibility is then that one will be put down just for doing what came natural to him. That's what is not fair.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Dracovich said:


> That goes for our black GSDs looking like wolves or wolfdogs too. If they get lost and wonder onto someone's property, I feel they have less of a chance of surviving than other, non wolfy dogs. I bought an orange reflective collar for when we are out in the woods because of this. People will shoot at anything, probably best staying out of the woods during hunting season all together.


"Rabbit season!"

"Duck season!"

"Rabbit season!"

"Duck season!"

"Rabbit season!"

"Duck season!"

"Rabbit season!"

"Rabbit season!"

"Duck season, fire!"


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> Lots of people who have never actually had dealings with coyotes have strong opinions about coyotes. Some of these opinions are informed, some are not.
> 
> There are an awful lot of sable dogs on here. All of our sable dogs were lanky, out-of-coat youngsters at some point. Fear-mongering and spreading paranoia about coyotes is a bad, bad idea.
> 
> We do not need trigger happy idiots staring down the barrel at our dogs.



Trust me, I have my dog afield with me during parts of the hunting season, so I am well aware of the risk of confusing a GSD for a coyote. It is for that reason, that I rarely let my dog off leash and he'll normally have some sort of bright-colored harness on. There are some trigger happy idiots out there, but there are also well-meaning, good-hearted hunters out there (I think the latter outnumbers the former) and in the heat of the moment, mistakes can be made, even with the best of hunters. So it's incumbent on every dog owner to take the proper precautions, just as much as its incumbent on every hunter to properly ID his/her target.

By the way, there was no fear mongering on my part. As I said, I think coyote and all predators serve a purpose. But this idea that these animals are cute, fluffy and harmless to us is completely naive. In the right circumstances, they will take a chomp at us, because that's what predators do.




Muskeg said:


> The thing is, "standard" methods of predator control - hunting, trapping, poisoning- have been shown again and again to utterly fail and actually cause more harm than good. Just killing coyotes actually increases negative interactions with humans and their pets or livestock. This applies to coyotes, specifically.


Coyote do tend to have large litters when under hunting pressure; so you're right that they don't respond the same way as other predators to traditional control methods. However, hunting and trapping them over the winter and right before the spring birthing season provides a huge amount of relief to both livestock and wild game; it removes hungry adults and potentially new pups, from the equation right when many animals are the most vulnerable (due to severe weather and lack of food).

I'm not sure what you mean by increasing negative interactions with humans. Where I live in NY, coyotes get hunted pretty well through the end of March. Just about all of the local farmers and livestock owners (as well as the pregnant doe) are very appreciative of those efforts. No one is under the illusion that we are really decreasing the overall coyote population for the long term, but in the short term hunting and trapping does control how how much pressure the coyotes are putting on other animals come spring time.

It's a contentious topic, and by no means is it settled as there are different studies and reports that seem to champion conflicting views and conclusions. 




Muskeg said:


> Despite active campaigns to eliminate them, coyotes have thrived, increased in size, interbred with wolves, and settled in to the suburbs and cities of the east coast.
> 
> Rather, we should be looking at alternative means of control, which would allow the older, smart, human-savvy females to pass on these traits to their young and so on. Hazing with LGDs, donkeys, is one alternative.
> 
> ...


There is so much opinion here that is being pushed as fact, and I don't know that I should really address it all, lest this devolve into an environmental debate.

Well firstly, let's start with what you got right: Coyotes have thrived and expanded their populations throughout North America, often times in spite of traditional management practices (like hunting and poisoning). Not only has the coyote thrived, it has changed here in the east into something in between a coyote and wolf and is starting to prey on bigger animals (like adult deer). And when you have a bigger, more capable predator, it's impact on the local ecosystem grows as well; for that reason it needs to be pro-actively managed (that's where hunting and trapping come in). Winters here in western and upper NY are especially tough on the deer (and other game species like Turkey) and thinning out the coyote numbers (even if temporarily) during those hard times does give the deer and others a little bit of breathing room.

I fully agree that there are multitude of non-lethal measures that farmers can, and in fact have, adopted (guardian animals, better fencing, lighting, ect.) to mitigate coyote predation. Hunting and trapping are by no means outdated or irrelevant. Rather they work very well to compliment and fill-in where the non-lethal measures fail (and at some point or another coyotes will exploit vulnerabilities with a given measure). I don't think one approach has to be used at the exclusion of the other; rather they are all part of an overall strategy of predator management and deterrence. 

I hunt coyotes quite a bit, by myself and with others. I personally don't know of any hunter that truly "hates" coyotes (though a lot of anti-hunting groups like to say that we do). Rather we have a lot of respect for the coyote, both as a part of the ecosystem and as a tough animal to hunt. Most hunters do make use of the fur as well. Whether with calling or with dogs, or even with trapping, it's no easy task to bring in a coyote. It takes a lot of skill and dedication and a lot of knowledge of how both the coyote and their prey behave. If our hunting truly increases the "negative" interactions that farmers and local livestock have with coyotes, then I don't know why it's so easy for us to get permission to hunt on their properties. People here are very protective of their turkey and deer hunting spots, but when it comes to coyote, many, if not most, welcome coyote hunters with open arms. If hunting and trapping were truly causing an increase negative coyote interactions, I suspect that most farmers would have a practical reason to keep us off their property, but they don't.

I kind of understand where you are coming from. In decades past, the mentality of most state and federal game officials and hunters was to kill anything and everything that eats meat...basically to wipe all major predators off the landscape. Well modern predator management has evolved a lot from those times. We as a society, including hunters and farmers, accept that predators will inhabit the landscape and that they add some benefit to the environment. There are also newer methods, both lethal and non-lethal, and as well there is, generally-speaking, a bit more regulation and scientific oversight in place to ensure that no populations are extirpated or genetically threatened by hunting and trapping.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> Winters here in western and upper NY are especially tough on the deer (and other game species like Turkey) and *thinning out the coyote numbers (even if temporarily) during those hard times does give the deer and others a little bit of breathing room.*
> 
> I fully agree that there are multitude of non-lethal measures that farmers can, and in fact have, adopted (guardian animals, better fencing, lighting, ect.) to mitigate coyote predation. Hunting and trapping are by no means outdated or irrelevant. Rather they work very well to compliment and fill-in where the non-lethal measures fail (and at some point or another coyotes will exploit vulnerabilities with a given measure). I don't think one approach has to be used at the exclusion of the other; rather they are all part of an overall strategy of predator management and deterrence.


My earlier comment wasn't directed at anyone specific.

I disagree with the bolded part above. This is the same mentality that resulted in the "fewer wolves = more deer" mentality that has trashed huge swatches of the Midwestern ecosystem. 

To quote a great hunter, and a great naturalist....



> "In those days we had never heard of passing up a chance to kill a wolf. In a second we were pumping lead into the pack, but with more excitement than accuracy: how to aim a steep downhill shot is always confusing. When our rifles were empty, the old wolf was down, and a pup was dragging a leg into impassable slide-rocks.
> 
> We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes - something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.
> 
> ...


I'm not an idealist, I don't think wild animals are fluffy and harmless. I have livestock, some of our land has "game farm" status so we're within our legal rights to march out the door and shoot predators just about any time for any reason.

I changed my fencing and acquired a donkey to deal with predation. It worked.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Below I've linked to just two peer reviewed articles containing the science behind what I've said, where killing coyotes actually leads to an increase in their population and is ineffective. Wildlife has historically been managed to "maximum sustainable yield" which generally works poorly or not at all for social, carnivorous species like wolves and coyotes. An ecosystem-based management approach is far more effective. Also, there is a strong link between increased tick diseases and coyote-wolf populations. I'm betting that far more people die and are sickened by Lyme disease than coyote attacks, and I'm also betting plenty of people would prefer to live with coyotes than rampant disease-carrying ticks. This is just one example where understanding the ecosystem and connections between species really matters. 

Pack Density Doubles Following the Death of a Resident Territorial Male. 

Double-litters in Coywolf, Canis latrans × lycaon, Packs Following the Death or Disappearance of a Resident Territorial Male


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## SamsontheGSD (Dec 23, 2016)

Dracovich said:


> WIBackpacker said:
> 
> 
> > We do not need trigger happy idiots staring down the barrel at our dogs.]
> ...


Have y'all seen this?

https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxn...olf-hybrid-wont-return-him-to-owners.amp.html

I don't know much about wolf hybrids, but the dog in the picture looks like a black german shepherd mix.

As for Coyotes, they are here in my area if South Carolina now. We've heard them for years in the woods at night, but recently spotted one in our neighborhood. That was a first. Interestingly, Samson would not go in the area the coyote was spotted tge last time i attempted to walk him there at night. Unusual behavior for him.

Supposedly coyotes can pick up on human patterns like walking a dog in the same area every day at the same time.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> My earlier comment wasn't directed at anyone specific.
> 
> I disagree with the bolded part above. This is the same mentality that resulted in the "fewer wolves = more deer" mentality that has trashed huge swatches of the Midwestern ecosystem.
> 
> To quote a great hunter, and a great naturalist....


Well I don't believe fewer wolves = more deer is a hard rule either, since deer, just like any animal population, can fluctuate for a variety of complex reasons (it's rarely so black-and-white that we can attribute the change to one particular predator or factor).

However, wolves and other apex predators certainly have the _potential_ to greatly impact species at local level. If you need proof of that, go read about how elk numbers have dropped significantly in Yellowstone since the reintroduction of wolves in the 90's.

And again, this naturalist your quoting was referring to the extreme and largely unregulated extirpation efforts that took place in decades past. Modern wildlife conservation isn't like that. And most hunters, farmers and ranchers, aren't advocating for such extreme measures; rather they want a balanced management approach where a variety of methods (to include hunting and trapping) are used to deter and control predator activity related to livestock and wild game populations. Even in a state like California that is politically and culturally opposed to hunting of certain predator species (like cougar) the state still pays contract hunters to cull ~150 individuals every year because it realizes the need for population management.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Yes, I'm reasonably well versed. My formal education included a hefty dose of university level ecology, and my professional and personal day-to-day experiences have shaped my opinions on coyotes.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

There's a difference between shooting on sight and responsible tag hunting. Hunting has caused many species to go extinct and some are still endangered and are having a very slow recovery. Most of those species are predators, because people find risk in every predator despite proof that they pose little to no risk to humans. Deer kill more people than any predator.

I very much support owning LGDs (as long as they are responsibly and humanely kept, many are treated poorly), it's a much more reliable and environmentally friendly solution to predators killing livestock. The only way to keep livestock safe from predators using guns is by killing every single one, whereas LGDs will constantly keep predators at bay and only occasionally picking one off, keeping predator packs and populations intact.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> Below I've linked to just two peer reviewed articles containing the science behind what I've said, where killing coyotes actually leads to an increase in their population and is ineffective. Wildlife has historically been managed to "maximum sustainable yield" which generally works poorly or not at all for social, carnivorous species like wolves and coyotes. An ecosystem-based management approach is far more effective. Also, there is a strong link between increased tick diseases and coyote-wolf populations. I'm betting that far more people die and are sickened by Lyme disease than coyote attacks, and I'm also betting plenty of people would prefer to live with coyotes than rampant disease-carrying ticks. This is just one example where understanding the ecosystem and connections between species really matters.
> 
> Pack Density Doubles Following the Death of a Resident Territorial Male.
> 
> Double-litters in Coywolf, Canis latrans × lycaon, Packs Following the Death or Disappearance of a Resident Territorial Male


That's why hunters don't just target males. We've taken many more female coyotes than males this season...there will be less litters dropped this spring because of that. 

And there have been more than a few studies in the northeast and southeast that have demonstrated how coyote predation is having an increasing effect on fawn survival rates. No one disputes the balance that coyotes bring to the environment. But the coyotes themselves need to be balanced and managed, either by us or by nature. Historically, nature balances overpopulation through disease and starvation (that has happened in the past for certain rodents and nest predators like raccoon and possum in my area). I'd rather see us take a proactive role in that management than see nature take its course.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> There's a difference between shooting on sight and responsible tag hunting. Hunting has caused many species to go extinct and some are still endangered and are having a very slow recovery. Most of those species are predators, because people find risk in every predator *despite proof that they pose little to no risk to humans.* *Deer kill more people than any predator.*


See it's these kinds of comments that started this whole tangent. *Unregulated hunting* of years past has caused extirpation. *Regulated hunting* as it exists today has been a driving force, financially and culturally, to maintain, grow and reintroduce many species. I don't know why people are so inclined to make such broad and inaccurate statements. You should do a little research on how much money has been generated by hunting fees/permits and non-profit groups (Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, National Turkey Federation) and then put into conservation efforts like habitat promotion, wildlife monitoring and studies and compare that amount to how much money animal groups like PETA and HUSUS have put into that pot. For North America, hunters and anglers have collectively been some of the biggest promoters of wildlife conservation. Regulated hunting in North America doesn't slow recovery from endangered status. The Endangered Species Act is in place for as long as the Federal government deems that a species is in trouble; once it has recovered, it is shifted back to state management (at least that is how it was designed to work).

Deer account for more fatalities because they have a much greater presence in human habitat than wolves and cause many car accidents. But to try and use that statistic as proof that wolves aren't a threat to humans is foolish. Wolves generally avoid areas of human presence, but if you don't conduct yourself properly, they can and will treat you as prey....there's no point in trying to sugarcoat that.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

There is a vast difference between hunting a prey species that is designed though tens of thousands of years of evolution to experience top-down regulation of numbers due to natural predation by wolves, bear, lynx, bobcat, etc. (now human hunters), and hunting a top-carnivore like a wolf, coyote, or cougar, species which have not evolved to experience top-down "predation" by humans and are unable to sustain their role in the ecosystem when they are hunted. 

I understand people are part of the ecosystem, but at a population of 7.5 billion and counting- we were below 2 billion for most of human history excepting the last 200 years- humans are taking on an oversized role, and it's especially important to manage our remaining wildlife and wildlands with an ecosystems-based approach, that integrates the best available science.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> There is a vast difference between hunting a prey species that is designed though tens of thousands of years of evolution to experience top-down regulation of numbers due to natural predation by wolves, bear, lynx, bobcat, etc. (now human hunters), and hunting a top-carnivore like a wolf, coyote, or cougar, species which have not evolved to experience top-down "predation" by humans and are unable to sustain their role in the ecosystem when they are hunted.
> 
> I understand people are part of the ecosystem, but at a population of 7.5 billion and counting- we were below 2 billion for most of human history excepting the last 200 years- humans are taking on an oversized role, and it's especially important to manage our remaining wildlife and wildlands with an ecosystems-based approach, that integrates the best available science.


These "top-carnivores" have been hunted by us for thousands of years now, so it's not like this is a new experiment or trend for the humans or animals in question. The key to making such hunting (and the populations being hunted) sustainable is ensuring that it is _regulated_ and scientifically-vetted. Wolves and grizzly are hunted with quite liberal seasons in Alaska and western Canada, albeit with specific regulations and restrictions in place to control the harvest rate. The same applies for black bear in the west and east, cougar in certain parts of Canada and the western US, and coyote in just about every state. Despite all of that, the predators in these areas have continued to thrive and even grow _because the hunting is regulated and driven largely by what the state biologists say the ecosystem can support_. 

You talk about using the "best available science" to make wildlife management decisions. It is because of scientists/biologists with on-the-ground experience that we are able, and in some cases required, to hunt these predators with the environment's long term health and stability in mind.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Dalko43 said:


> These "top-carnivores" have been hunted by us for thousands of years now, so it's not like this is a new experiment or trend for the humans or animals in question. The key to making such hunting (and the populations being hunted) sustainable is ensuring that it is _regulated_ and scientifically-vetted. Wolves and grizzly are hunted with quite liberal seasons in Alaska and western Canada, albeit with specific regulations and restrictions in place to control the harvest rate. The same applies for black bear in the west and east, cougar in certain parts of Canada and the western US, and coyote in just about every state. Despite all of that, the predators in these areas have continued to thrive and even grow _because the hunting is regulated and driven largely by what the state biologists say the ecosystem can support_.
> 
> You talk about using the "best available science" to make wildlife management decisions. It is because of scientists/biologists with on-the-ground experience that we are able, and in some cases required, to hunt these predators with the environment's long term health and stability in mind.


In other news, mansplaining is at an all time high...


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> See it's these kinds of comments that started this whole tangent. *Unregulated hunting* of years past has caused extirpation. *Regulated hunting* as it exists today has been a driving force, financially and culturally, to maintain, grow and reintroduce many species. I don't know why people are so inclined to make such broad and inaccurate statements. You should do a little research on how much money has been generated by hunting fees/permits and non-profit groups (Ducks Unlimited, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, National Turkey Federation) and then put into conservation efforts like habitat promotion, wildlife monitoring and studies and compare that amount to how much money animal groups like PETA and HUSUS have put into that pot. For North America, hunters and anglers have collectively been some of the biggest promoters of wildlife conservation. Regulated hunting in North America doesn't slow recovery from endangered status. The Endangered Species Act is in place for as long as the Federal government deems that a species is in trouble; once it has recovered, it is shifted back to state management (at least that is how it was designed to work).
> 
> Deer account for more fatalities because they have a much greater presence in human habitat than wolves and cause many car accidents. But to try and use that statistic as proof that wolves aren't a threat to humans is foolish. Wolves generally avoid areas of human presence, but if you don't conduct yourself properly, they can and will treat you as prey....there's no point in trying to sugarcoat that.


I used to hunt, research has made me stop. If you bothered to read properly, I made no jab at tag hunting. Try again.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> Aww well people do stuff if on,e is determined to be that different and they think they are ... good enough ... here you go.:
> 
> Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Dog Breed Information and Pictures
> 
> I heard those guys can easily run 35 to 50 miles in a day ... so good luck to the "Exercise solves all fans" ... just saying.


knowing a young man (well he was way back in the day) , working as a conscript in the Pohranicni Straze kennels , with the wolf-dog experimental offspring I understand that they were never pettish and retained a lot of the avoidance tactics that a wild type animal would have. 

I respect coyotes . Our property was actually under study by the Suzuki group , because we live in a corridor . I see them often, hear them regularly , especially now because it must be breeding time. But I am so impressed by their adaptabiltiy to environments -- the generalists seem to win . Plus there is a beauty to them . Conformation so functional. Love to see the fresh tracks in new snow as they travel a few feet from the house into our green pine covers .
Single tracking . One will even track back on his own track. just amazing.

The wolf dogs and the coyotes and a PROPERLY built fit GSD all can cover the same ground.
There is one story of a shepherd taking his dog off the field , biking 20 km's , trialing him, turning around and biking back 20 km's and the dog carries on with his duties as the living fence with no stress or problems .

The coyote is a highly social animal . 
To isolate him from his social kind is cruel. 

Dogs are social . But we are , through some 60,000 , maybe more years of selection and genetic changes , able to fulfill that role. 

That is what makes dogs so very special , and unique, among all the animals which join us in domestication .


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## ghinchcl (Mar 2, 2017)

Those neighbors are clueless. They should not try to domesticate a natural wild animal. It will/can turn on the family or neighbors. If I personally saw that in my yard I would shoot it and do the whole neighborhood a favor. That is a big FU to the whole neighborhood by them. Ot caring about anyone's safety


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I too was going to recommend the book Daily Coyote.

where do you release them too? 

it's not all romantic notions of the wild beast being freed and embraced by the packs out there .
closer to a death sentence --- even with squirrels --- all are highly territorial. Coyotes have a very sophisticated family pack structure . 

take it one step further . would you adopt a baby bear cub?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Habitat loss caused by each and everyone of us is the greatest threat to wildlife. Ecosystems are destroyed to build sprawling sub divisions, shopping malls, roads, or cleared for farming/ranching, we all pull the trigger.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SamsontheGSD said:


> Have y'all seen this?
> 
> https://www.google.com/amp/www.foxn...olf-hybrid-wont-return-him-to-owners.amp.html


LOL ... that "Dog" looks like Rocky! And I have no idea how many times I've said "No he is not a Wolf ... he's an Oversized Wl GSD." But hey maybe "that one" is a wolf dog???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> *The wolf dogs and the coyotes and a PROPERLY built fit GSD all can cover the same ground.*


LOL thank you and a great post as usual ... but the part in bold??? PITB, that I can be ... I have no choice but to say ... so much for the exercise as the solution to all crowd. 

For me ... raising a well adjusted, happy family pet ... is all about "Balance."


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> In other news, mansplaining is at an all time high...


Well ... I am a "male" ... but yep ... I see it the same as you.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Chip18 said:


> LOL thank you and a great post as usual ... but the part in bold??? PITB, that I can be ... I have no choice but to say ... so much for the exercise as the solution to all crowd.
> 
> For me ... raising a well adjusted, happy family pet ... is all about "Balance."



Transhumance . The once a year migration of livestock , sheep , from valley to higher altitude grazing fields . The shepherd and his dogs would easily cover close to this distance . Moreso the dog who did not go in a straight linear route , but would be on the constant move , back and forth , and around and back and forth to keep the flock moving together and forward.

one ancient transhumance is the san grasso route.

Klinghammer, and the Coppingers cover this yearly migration and the dogs useful for it in their book Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution, Coppinger, Coppinger


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL thank you and a great post as usual ... but the part in bold??? PITB, that I can be ... I have no choice but to say ... so much for the exercise as the solution to all crowd.
> 
> For me ... raising a well adjusted, happy family pet ... is all about "Balance."


Or you could look at it as meeting the needs of your pet...
A dog who doesn't exercise will excercise...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Or you could look at it as meeting the needs of your pet...
> A dog who doesn't exercise will excercise...


Good point. True balance is meeting all the dog's requirements before expecting the dog to meet all of yours.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Transhumance . The once a year migration of livestock , sheep , from valley to higher altitude grazing fields . The shepherd and his dogs would easily cover close to this distance . Moreso the dog who did not go in a straight linear route , but would be on the constant move , back and forth , and around and back and forth to keep the flock moving together and forward.
> 
> one ancient transhumance is the san grasso route.
> 
> Klinghammer, and the Coppingers cover this yearly migration and the dogs useful for it in their book Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution, Coppinger, Coppinger


Crap ... like I needed another book but ... I just bought it. 

I forgot about the "Sheep" thing?? Large herds of them come out here in the spring every year. Up from over the mountains as near as I can tell??? I've even heard tale of a "Sweeping Herding Boxer in these parts but I've never seen him or her???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Good point. True balance is meeting all the dog's requirements before expecting the dog to meet all of yours.


Nope ... I'm not going there ... "exercise" is to easy for "me." I have literally hundreds of miles of open desert a couple blocks away. All I have to add is a "Solid Recall" and well a "NO" if the Jack Rabbits break the wrong way. 

Hm ... and as it happens I also proved that American Line Boxers ... don't have an issue with high heat in the NV desert. But I'll take that up with Strudells, short muzzled "Euro" counter parts on BoxerFroum. 

So I've done enough ... up to the city dwelling "GSD"owners to say what exactly is the right "balance" for "Exercise."


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## ghinchcl (Mar 2, 2017)

Let them attach your dog or even worse one of kids an tell me your opinions of shooting it does not change. What a joke


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## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

Coleen said:


> I recently joined a neighborhood forum. I just came across a post of someone in a community not even a mile away from me posting that their pet coyote is missing! Further down the forum few people in that community posted about spotting a coyote, 1 person claiming that it ate a small dog. Is having a coyote as a pet legal? How safe would that be? There is a pic showing this coyote sniffing a nose of a small child. Thoughts? :surprise:


I am also the NW burbs, do you care to share what area this is?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Nope ... I'm not going there ... "exercise" is to easy for "me." I have literally hundreds of miles of open desert a couple blocks away. All I have to add is a "Solid Recall" and well a "NO" if the Jack Rabbits break the wrong way.
> 
> Hm ... and as it happens I also proved that American Line Boxers ... don't have an issue with high heat in the NV desert. But I'll take that up with Strudells, short muzzled "Euro" counter parts on BoxerFroum.
> 
> So I've done enough ... up to the city dwelling "GSD"owners to say what exactly is the right "balance" for "Exercise."


The need for appropriate exercise is not an opinion but a scientific fact.


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## Coleen (Sep 18, 2015)

BigHemi45 said:


> I am also the NW burbs, do you care to share what area this is?


Plainfield area


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

This so called 'pet coyote' that is now missing- Could this just be a coyote this woman has been feeding on the back porch? I saw the picture of it sniffing the child. It looked like it could be on a porch. Lots of idiots feed wildlife and think its cute. Coyote are smart and will exploit any reliable food source. Cat food bowl empty> Hey, I'll eat the cat. Urban coyotes have lost their natural fear of close by humans. Out here in cattle country the yote population fluctuates. It builds up then takes a dive. Cause- distemper outbreaks and heartworm.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

ghinchcl said:


> Let them attach your dog or even worse one of kids an tell me your opinions of shooting it does not change. What a joke


It might, except for the fact that simply doesn't happen. I live in a coyote dense area and rarely ever is there an attack on dogs, never attacks on humans. I have a large strong breed for a reason.

I mean, just wait until that ice cream gives your kids diabetes and they die then tell me your opinion on ice cream doesn't change. That excuse can be used on everything.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well ...when/if the "Zombie Apocalypse comes down ... all us "let them be type" will go running screaming into the night 
and most likely ... be eaten by roving bands of Human Aggressive Coyotes. And as they chow down on us most likey the Coyotes will think ... hmm taste like chicken.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Coleen said:


> No, I dont know anyone in that community to be able to find out if it's real or not. I'll post the pic of the coyote and girl.


Debate aside, I took another look at the photograph this morning (Coleen's post on Page 2, http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/689793-coyote-pet-2.html#post8407785 )

The picture quality is poor, so take this with a grain of salt. Look at the shadows cast by the coyote's legs - the shadows cross, the shadow of the right forelimb is cast up and to the left. Everything else in the room (the table, the child) casts a shadow down toward the lower left.

Either that room has a variety of unusual light sources (which is possible) or this was an amateur-ish Photoshop endeavor.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I believe the pic is legit and from an older story approximately 3-4 years back. If the pic comes from where I suspect, the family would have to have moved and I don't think that has happened, could be wrong though. It would also involve crossing state lines and new laws regarding ownership.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Nigel said:


> I believe the pic is legit and from an older story approximately 3-4 years back. If the pic comes from where I suspect, the family would have to have moved and I don't think that has happened, could be wrong though. It would also involve crossing state lines and new laws regarding ownership.


This one? The young girl looks very similar. The original photo is probably a still-shot taken from the video clip below. Same child, same table, same coyote....

The eight-year-old Wisconsin girl who has a pet coyote called Wiley | Daily Mail Online

http://www.lifedaily.com/dad-brings-home-baby-coyote-for-his-daughter/


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> This one? The young girl looks very similar.
> 
> The eight-year-old Wisconsin girl who has a pet coyote called Wiley | Daily Mail Online
> 
> ...


Yes, that's the one.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I read the article, and it has yet another misunderstanding of the definition of domestication vs. taming. A wild animal is not domesticated in one generation. A wild animal becomes domesticated through artificial (human) selection for desired traits over many generations. An animal is domesticated when it will reliably pass on those selected traits to offspring. 

An animal can easily be "tamed" in one generation, sometimes more reliably than other times, but taming involves no changes to the genetic traits that animal will pass on. An easily tamed animal, on the other hand, may be a good start for developing a domestication breeding program, but you'd have to see subsequent generations to know. 

I worked with an organization that claimed to be "domesticating" musk-oxen for a tiny while, and it drove me crazy to hear the directors talk about how they were "domesticating" the animals when they were doing nothing of the sort. There was no selection for traits, and once mature, next to no taming either. The animals also were very susceptible to diseases because they evolved in the Arctic and lived a nomadic lifestyle. So you were lucky if half the calves survived to adulthood, giving a caretaker even less chance to select for traits. A poor candidate species for domestication if there ever was one, but that story made the tourists happy, and they are cool looking animals.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

There are quite a few articles and interviews regarding that coyote....

Patricia Randolph's Madravenspeak: A hunter?s story of love and transformation | Opinion | host.madison.com

Coleen, to your original question, you're only a few hours away from where that coyote used to live. If the family moved one state over, it might very well be the one.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

WIBackpacker said:


> There are quite a few articles and interviews regarding that coyote....
> 
> Patricia Randolph's Madravenspeak: A hunter?s story of love and transformation | Opinion | host.madison.com
> 
> Coleen, to your original question, you're only a few hours away from where that coyote used to live. If the family moved one state over, it might very well be the one.


Heres one I recall coming across some time back.
https://wiwildlifeethic.org/2013/02...sin-hunters-story-of-love-and-transformation/

It's possible the family moved, also could be someone trolling the OP's forum too. The op could check the contact info on the FB post.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> In other news, mansplaining is at an all time high...


Not sure how that term is even relevant here, or why it's even included in our modern vocabulary.

Your input was very insightful though.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dalko43 said:


> Not sure how that term is even relevant here, or why it's even included in our modern vocabulary.
> 
> Your input was very insightful though.


LOL ... well that's odd becasue I get it??? But ... if I try and explain ... down another "Rabbit hole" we will go.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> That goes for our black GSDs looking like wolves or wolfdogs too. If they get lost and wonder onto someone's property, I feel they have less of a chance of surviving than other, non wolfy dogs. I bought an orange reflective collar for when we are out in the . woods because of this. People will shoot at anything, probably best staying out of the woods during hunting season all together.


No hunters ...out and about where I am ... but I have fielded the "is Rocky a Wolf " question on many occasions. My answer is always no ... he is a dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The need for appropriate exercise is not an opinion but a scientific fact.


So you know ... I am not "ignoring you??" But I am going to stand firm on my postion as stated. Blame "boxerforum" if you will ... there take on "me" was ... maybe if we can get this bad dawg ... in the "Dog Park" under control ... perhaps he has some value to us??? >


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> Not sure how that term is even relevant here, or why it's even included in our modern vocabulary.
> 
> Your input was very insightful though.


You're saying that men don't sometimes explain things in a condescending manner? My husband does it to me all the time when we play video games, and I womansplain to him when it comes to dogs (specifically my dog, he isn't used to big dogs), etc. The way in which you responded to muskeg was demeaning, what with the quotation marks and general attitude, and made a made an assumption and responded to me with a completely irrelevant spiel. As a result, your long comments are being seen as mansplaining.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> No hunters ...out and about where I am ... but I have fielded the "is Rocky a Wolf " question on many occasions. My answer is always no ... he is a dog.


Yep all too many times... I go into hunting areas because they generally have no traffic, which makes off leash hiking and exploring more relaxing. Hunting season here is nearer to the end of the year, when weather is not pleasant, so I don't go out during hunting season anyway. Perhaps fowl hunters would be out, but not likely.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> You're saying that men don't sometimes explain things in a condescending manner? My husband does it to me all the time when we play video games, and I womansplain to him when it comes to dogs (specifically my dog, he isn't used to big dogs), etc. The way in which you responded to muskeg was demeaning, what with the quotation marks and general attitude, and made a made an assumption and responded to me with a completely irrelevant spiel. As a result, your long comments are being seen as mansplaining.


LOL ... quotation marks .... those really seems to "tick some people off??"


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> So you know ... I am not "ignoring you??" But I am going to stand firm on my postion as stated. Blame "boxerforum" if you will ... there take on "me" was ... maybe if we can get this bad dawg ... in the "Dog Park" under control ... perhaps he has some value to us??? >


Your opinion does not supersede the research of scientists, biologists, etc.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> Yep all too many times... I go into hunting areas because they generally have no traffic, which makes off leash hiking and exploring more relaxing. Hunting season here is nearer to the end of the year, when weather is not pleasant, so I don't go out during hunting season anyway. Perhaps fowl hunters would be out, but not likely.


LOL "Fowl Hunters??" That should be safe for "Wolf looking GSD's??? I don't have the reference but a freaking "Weimaraner" was shot and killed at distance while there owners were there and it was done at a "distance" by some freaking tool of a hunter! His "explanation" was ... I thought it was a "Coyote???"


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... quotation marks .... those really seems to "tick some people off??"


Excluding you, of course


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Your opinion does not supersede the research of scientists, biologists, etc.


Near as I can tell?? I made no statement saying otherwise??? Accept the win or are your going to be like ... "the breed that shall be mentioned???"


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> LOL "Fowl Hunters??" That should be safe for "Wolf looking GSD's??? I don't have the reference but a freaking "Weimaraner" was shot and killed at distance while there owners were there and it was done at a "distance" by some freaking tool of a hunter! His "explanation" was ... I thought it was a "Coyote???"


That reminds me of *this jerk*

same story?

Mistakes happen, yeah, but after all that Mike Chedester decided to open a facebook page MOCKING the whole thing and the dogs owner. Admitted he did it publicly on his page, then claimed he was innocent. People are crazy and some hunters just want something to shoot.

Here's Byers and his dogs

I've been looking at orange vests to buy, havent found one that will fit Draco, but I hope his orange reflective collar provides some protection.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> That reminds me of *this jerk*
> 
> same story?


No sadly ... not the same story. But there is no shortage of "gun toting tools" gunning down family pets. Stay Down and Car Proofing ... are mandatory for my dogs. Because of a story I read in 2000?? Traffic stop and the highlights family "Bulldog" hopped out of the van unbid and approached an officer and got gunned down!! The "officer's" explanation ... was of course "I felt threatened."

Two family Boxers chased down and shot/killed by a gun toting member of "JQP" ...escaped the yard and heading to where Grand Ma used to live. They did it all the time but this time ... some self appointed tool decided that those "Brindle and Flashy BOXERS" looked like (Breed that shall not be mentioned) and chose to gun them down.

Number three ... three "Boxers" bolted out an open garage door and ran across the street into a neighbor's garage and got gunned by a wanna be cop. 

At the heart of all those incidents however is a failure on the part of the owners and those dogs ... paided with there lives for there owners failure. 

But the "Weimaraner" ...no not on the owners, there dogs was shot in front of them while they were out with him. That tool shot those peoples dog feet from them.

I don't own a gun ... so shooting an animal just becasue I can ... is not a first resort for me. Still I would think that if one is running around shooting "wildlife" ... a minimum requirement (I would think) ought to be ... the ability to tell the difference between a "Coyote a Wolf and a freaking dog??? Rocky and I ... would go somewhere else during hunting season but we don't have that issue where we are.


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## ghinchcl (Mar 2, 2017)

Dragovich comment on diabetes. Let see them attack your large breed. That is stupid analogy!! You are taking in a wild animal who can attack and will!!


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## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

Coleen said:


> Plainfield area


O you mean the far SW suburbs. I lived there for a brief time in the mid 90's.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

ghinchcl said:


> Dragovich comment on diabetes. Let see them attack your large breed. That is stupid analogy!! You are taking in a wild animal who can attack and will!!


You realize there are dogs built to take dangerous predators, right? I've watched my Great Pyr chase off a cougar. Wild animals are just as afraid as you are. We're talking coyotes anyway, not the boogie man. Coyotes are small and extremely timid.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> You're saying that men don't sometimes explain things in a condescending manner? My husband does it to me all the time when we play video games, and I womansplain to him when it comes to dogs (specifically my dog, he isn't used to big dogs), etc. The way in which you responded to muskeg was demeaning, what with the quotation marks and general attitude, and made a made an assumption and responded to me with a completely irrelevant spiel. As a result, your long comments are being seen as mansplaining.


I still don't get what mansplanning is or why it people even use that kind of word. If you think someone is condescending, just say they're condescending instead of making up arbitrary and trendy definitions. 

And for the record, I don't think I was condescending anyone. I was explaining my point of view as a hunter/conservationist. Muskeg disagrees with my point of view, which is perfectly fine and normal in this day and age. If you or anyone else disagrees with my point of view, you should state your specific reasons or counterpoints....throwing vague and PC-inspired labels at me (which is the vibe I get when I hear someone use "mansplanning") is a cop-out.



Dracovich said:


> You realize there are dogs built to take dangerous predators, right? I've watched my Great Pyr chase off a cougar. Wild animals are just as afraid as you are. We're talking coyotes anyway, not the boogie man. Coyotes are small and extremely timid.


Coyotes in the east are generally bigger than the ones out west. I've seen some that are 50lbs and heavier. And you can sugar-coat it all you want, but they are very cunning predators who take down livestock and dogs alike, if they get the right opportunity. LGD (like the GP you referenced) losses to coyote, wolves and cougar are not at all uncommon, especially out west.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> I still don't get what mansplanning is or why it people even use that kind of word. If you think someone is condescending, just say they're condescending instead of making up arbitrary and trendy definitions.
> 
> And for the record, I don't think I was condescending anyone. I was explaining my point of view as a hunter/conservationist. Muskeg disagrees with my point of view, which is perfectly fine and normal in this day and age. If you or anyone else disagrees with my point of view, you should state your specific reasons or counterpoints....throwing vague and PC-inspired labels at me (which is the vibe I get when I hear someone use "mansplanning") is a cop-out.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you know very little about LGDs, so I forgive you. 50 lbs seems rather small to me, when wolves can be over 100 lbs and a good LGD can handle them. You're just speaking theoretically, when I have personally encountered coyotes many times with zero issues. Wild predators are extremely timid of humans and large dogs. Breeds like GSDs and Great Pyrs are often bred to be extremely brave/courageous, often ignoring risk to their survival. Wild animals will always prioritize survival, meaning flight in a predator vs predator confrontation is preferred.

Here's a video of a coyote being killed by a dog, a mutt too.





There are numerous videos of the like, you could look into it.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> Sounds like you know very little about LGDs, so I forgive you. 50 lbs seems rather small to me, when wolves can be over 100 lbs and a good LGD can handle them. You're just speaking theoretically, when I have personally encountered coyotes many times with zero issues. Wild predators are extremely timid of humans and large dogs. Breeds like GSDs and Great Pyrs are often bred to be extremely brave/courageous, often ignoring risk to their survival. Wild animals will always prioritize survival, meaning flight in a predator vs predator confrontation is preferred.
> 
> Here's a video of a coyote being killed by a dog, a mutt too.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncillLINO2I
> ...


Draco, a youtube video is fine and dandy, but go to the farming/ranching forums, go read some news articles or better yet go talk to some farmers...dogs get lured out and killed all the time by coyotes (a lot of times the owners don't even bother reporting it).

I know what LGD's are and what they're capable of. But they're not invincible. And your dismissive attitude towards the coyote's size and capabilities indicates to me that you have very little first-hand experience with them.
1) 50lbs and up is considered to be very big for a coyote. Height-wise, some of them are getting into Malinois or DS territory.
2) It's not just the size of the coyote that makes them such formidable predators. Just like it's not just a wolf's size that allows it take down full-sized caribou and elk. Coyote rely on their cunning and teamwork to take down larger-sized animals. And there have been many reports of them instigating and luring away lone dogs (even LGD's) into the woods where a group of coyotes then ambushed and killed the dog.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> Draco, a youtube video is fine and dandy, but go to the farming/ranching forums, go read some news articles or better yet go talk to some farmers...dogs get lured out and killed all the time by coyotes (a lot of times the owners don't even bother reporting it).
> 
> I know what LGD's are and what they're capable of. But they're not invincible. And your dismissive attitude towards the coyote's size and capabilities indicates to me that you have very little first-hand experience with them.
> 1) 50lbs and up is considered to be very big for a coyote. Height-wise, some of them are getting into Malinois or DS territory.
> 2) It's not the size of the coyote that makes them such formidable predators. Just like it's not a wolf's size that allows it take down full-sized caribou and elk. Coyote rely on their cunning and teamwork to take down larger-sized animals. And there have been many reports of them instigating and luring away lone dogs (even LGD's) into the woods where a group of coyotes then ambushed and killed the dog.


People have used dogs to hunt and kill predators for CENTURIES, this should not be new information to you. I live in a densely predator populated area, lots of cougars, bears, coyotes, NEVER have heard of one killing a dog around here, much less a large dog bred for combat. There have also been a lot of reports of big foot and alien abductions, does that make it true or reliable information? I'm speaking from first hand experience, coyotes have always run when they see me or my dogs. In the end you're just making petty excuses for poaching animals for fun.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> People have used dogs to hunt and kill predators for CENTURIES, this should not be new information to you. I live in a densely predator populated area, lots of cougars, bears, coyotes, *NEVER have heard of one killing a dog around here, much less a large dog bred for combat. There have also been a lot of reports of big foot and alien abductions*, does that make it true or reliable information?


If you think a coyote killing a dog is as rare or unlikely as bigfoot or alien abductions, then you must really have your head in the sand. It happens all the time....you either don't pay attention or you choose to ignore it because it discredits your romanticized perception of a cute fluffly animal.

Have a nice day.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> If you think a coyote killing a dog is as rare or unlikely as bigfoot or alien abductions, then you must really have your head in the sand. It happens all the time....you either don't pay attention or you chose to ignore it because it disproves your romanticized perception of a cute fluffly animal.
> 
> Have a nice day.


As I said before, there is a reason I own large capable dogs. Predators often kill smaller dogs, not combat bred dogs. Your dog is more likely to be killed in a car accident, should we stop driving or start shooting our cars?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If you keep your dogs in sight, and under control, a cunning coyote won't get a chance to lure it out and kill it. Never heard of anyone's dog getting killed by coyote or coy-wolf, personally. I have heard of many dogs that died or got extremely sick from tick illness. It's not my opinion, but it's fact that tick illnesses are directly related to coyote-prey dynamics. It's also a fact that more dogs die and get very sick from ticks than get eaten by coyotes. Again, not opinion. 

I'm not just sitting her pontificating on animals with which I have no experience. I have probably encountered more large predators in the wild than almost anyone on this forum, and lived to tell the tale. 

I have met cougars (including mom and kittens), numerous brown bear (including mom and cubs), many black bears, wolverines (up close three times), coyotes, coy-wolves, and wolves. I used to work a job where I worked entire nights in cougar-bear-wolf country. I still spend a lot of time out in the bush just for recreation. The animal that actually inflicted the most damage on me and mine? Moose ($6,000 vet bill for a bad kick to my dog while we were skijoring) and porcupine (a dog gets just a tiny bit too close and whack... $300 vet bill). Beavers can also kill a swimming dog, and I do know people who have had dogs nearly eviscerated by one. Never had even a bit of a problem with smaller predators like bobcats, lynx, fisher, mink.

But- the species that actually killed one of my dog was a fungi (Valley Fever) and the species that made my dog so sick I needed to take him to a vet teaching hospital- tick (ehrlichia), and made a different dog of mine very sick - tick (ehrlichia again). Also, I got laid out by tick illness myself (Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever). 

So, yes, in all my time outdoors it was the tiny fungi and little ticks that caused the most death and destruction. Not the big bad coyote, wolf, or bear.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> So, yes, in all my time outdoors it was the tiny fungi and little ticks that caused the most death and destruction. Not the big bad coyote, wolf, or bear.


***** and a skunk have done the most damage to my dogs, luckily no need for vet visits though. ***** scratch their faces up, and once a skunk got Draco up his sinuses and mouth, no doubt Draco was getting closer than was wise. Had to hose his nose and let him sneeze what he could out. It was extremely unpleasant, probably for him too


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## np307 (Feb 22, 2017)

I can't speak to any other locations laws or practices, only NC where I'm from. Here (as I imagine is true anywhere else) it is illegal to own any wild animal as a pet. We have plenty of coyotes here and they've wreaked plenty of havoc. Mostly on wildlife. Turkey especially. I know farmers who have had livestock attacked and killed by coyotes. My dad has been face to face with one that did not back down. They're used to people around here and aren't as scared as you would expect them to be. They also aren't native to our state, and are thankfully considered a pest. No limits for hunting or trapping them. Trapping is an effective method for reducing large numbers of coyotes, at least when done on large tracts of land. I'm not sure why some people would act like coyotes don't pose a legitimate risk to people. I also don't understand why some have to act like they're going to kill us all. 

In this neck of the woods, I'm not going to be very forgiving when it comes to coyotes. I know the difference between a coyote and a dog. Each location is different, but I don't think anyone has a legitimate argument against the extirpation of coyotes in regions they are not native to, especially with the damage that they have done here.

For someone to keep one as a pet? They'll end up with what they deserve.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> If you keep your dogs in sight, and under control, a cunning coyote won't get a chance to lure it out and kill it. Never heard of anyone's dog getting killed by coyote or coy-wolf, personally. I have heard of many dogs that died or got extremely sick from tick illness. It's not my opinion, but it's fact that tick illnesses are directly related to coyote-prey dynamics. It's also a fact that more dogs die and get very sick from ticks than get eaten by coyotes. Again, not opinion.
> 
> I'm not just sitting her pontificating on animals with which I have no experience. I have probably encountered more large predators in the wild than almost anyone on this forum, and lived to tell the tale.
> 
> ...


Lol, you and Draco can play whatever justification games that you want. I wasn't pontificating on how coyote predation is the #1 cause of fatality for dogs. I was simply pointing out to Draco that coyotes _can and will_ target and kill dogs if they seen an opportunity, despite his perceptions to the contrary. 

And in farm or wilderness country, where coyotes have a heavy presence, it is a common occurrence. Encounters with moose, tick, beaver, porcupines are all threats to be aware of (though the latter two are rarely fatal, despite your unique story). I really don't care if you two take issue with that or want to add all sorts of minutia and off-topic caveats to the discussion. I've spent enough time in predator country to know there is truth behind what I'm saying.


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## lytrefry (Oct 20, 2016)

Coyotes in our area have been known to attack people, animals.. pretty much anything they can get their teeth into. No one walks at all without some sort of weapon to deter them... 
Definitely would not keep them as a pet!


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> Lol, you and Draco can play whatever justification games that you want. I wasn't pontificating on how coyote predation is the #1 cause of fatality for dogs. I was simply pointing out to Draco that coyotes _can and will_ target and kill dogs if they seen an opportunity, despite his perceptions to the contrary.
> 
> And in farm or wilderness country, where coyotes have a heavy presence, it is a common occurrence. Encounters with moose, tick, beaver, porcupines are all threats to be aware of (though the latter two are rarely fatal, despite your unique story). I really don't care if you two take issue with that or want to add all sorts of minutia and off-topic caveats to the discussion. I've spent enough time in predator country to know there is truth behind what I'm saying.


I grew up a hunter in Oregon and still journey up the mountains which are densely populated by wildlife, which is part of the reason I got my dog. You're "dismissive attitude" (complete sarcasm and condescending attitude intended with this quote) toward me and my experience is only a petty attempt to weaken my argument and strengthen yours, but it just makes you look bad for making blind assumptions, you don't know me or muskeg. Both of us have first hand experience where these predators *have had the opportunity*. Yet you have *ZERO* first hand experiences to provide for us, but instead the tall tales of farmers that you repeat.

I never once implied predators do not kill smaller dogs, but said that large dogs bred for combat are stronger than coyotes and have a much greater chance in the fight. Please continue your boogie man stories and mansplain to us. I love the big words you use improperly.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Look at it this way, there is little footage of coyotes actually attacking dogs where the dogs lose. The footage there is it is of small dogs. On the other hand, there is PLENTY of footage of dogs attacking, even killing coyotes.

Here is a PACK of coyotes attempting an attack on one dog, not even a very large dog or a combat bred dog:


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I'm very sorry if anyone is sensitive to the videos I posted, doesn't help the huge screenshot this forum puts up. I find myself fascinated with the predatory aspect of dogs, despite that I feel it's unfortunate animals often suffer from it. I love that my dog has prey drive but I keep him away from other non dog animals.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Why do you keep saying "combat" bred dogs? LGD's aren't raise for combat, they are raised to live with and watch over livestock.

I've seen the after affects of coyote predation on livestock, deer and even domestic dogs (even the big "combat" ones you keep referring to). It happens frequently enough that people living in agricultural or rural areas no longer view it as abnormal; it's simply taken for granted that if you leave an animal exposed and vulnerable in coyote territory, it will get targeted. I can't explain why you haven't seen such incidents, but since you live in Oregon, it would probably take only a slight amount of travel or research on your part to find someone in your state who has had such an experience. 

You say that you grew up hunting (that seems to be a common theme among many anti-hunters, as if it somehow justifies their views). Well if you truly did hunt when you were young, you would've learned about the animals you were hunting (at least if you were paying attention). Through hunting eastern coyote, I've learned a lot about them: what they eat; when they're active; how they move; how they respond when pressured; how their behaviors change depending upon the season; how other animals respond when pressured by them; what sign and indications they leave; what kind of country attracts them; ect. Here in the east, they are bigger and much more aggressive predators than what many westerners may be accustomed to. As an example, one winter night, I went out to do some blood tracking on an artificial line with my dog. While mid-track, I bumped (or rather came across) a large, mature buck; I saw him with my headlamp (which I quickly turned off) and he saw and sniffed me and my dog. He definitely knew what I was (or else he wouldn't have gotten to be that big) and knew enough about dogs to keep his distance from my guy. But he didn't run off as I expected him to....the reason for that came creeping up behind him in the form of 4 sets of yipping eyes. A quick flash of my headlamp revealed 4 adult coyote (2 of them easily at 45+lbs). The coyotes quickly ran off when they realized I was there...the deer took his time, walking in my general area for a few minutes before finally heading into some nearby brush. The buck was more worried about evading the coyotes than he was about getting away from me (and I was in an area that is hunted heavily for big-rack bucks).

I say all this not to portray them as "boogie men," I actually found the whole experience to be quite amazing and insightful. But rather to illustrate that the coyote here are: bigger than normal; more aggressive as predators; inclined to pack up to take down bigger animals; and mostly operate at night. Any dog, "combat-bred" or otherwise, that wanders off into coyote territory by itself, especially during the night, stands a very good chance of being dead by sunrise. That's not fear-mongering or demonizing the coyote...I respect them as predators. It's just the way things are.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

I personally allow my dogs to come in and out of the house to our small fenced in yard all day. Once it gets dark at about 5:45 PM the doors are closed. The dogs go out on leash for their last pee of the night. Two dogs have been killed here recently when allowed to go out to pee after dark -not coyotes, but a puma. And erlichiosis is the biggest killer of dogs here in Costa Rica. And cane toads, which come out at dusk. Numerous neighbors have lost dogs to cane toads recently, within 15 minutes - no time to get to a vet. Know your enemy!


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> Why do you keep saying "combat" bred dogs? LGD's aren't raise for combat, they were raised to live with and watch over livestock.


Watch over them to prevent what? and prevent it how? Combat... I also never said I am against hunting, but your "unique stories" are hilarious.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> Watch over them to prevent what? and prevent it how? Combat... I also never said I am against hunting, but your "unique stories" are hilarious.


They're bred to watch and deter more than anything else; fighting, for most of them, is a last resort. Calling them "combat-bred" dogs gives a false perception of what they're intended for.

As for hunting, you have certainly implied that you don't agree with predator hunting as a management tool. So you're selectively anti-hunting? Don't really care. I've got plenty of time in the field, looking for, hunting and studying these animals...and I'll continue to spend many more years doing that and expanding my understanding of these animals. You seem to have it all figured out though, so have fun with your "combat-bred" dogs and stay safe.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Dalko43 said:


> They're bred to watch and deter more than anything else; fighting, for most of them, is a last resort. Calling them "combat-bred" dogs gives a false perception of what they're intended for.
> 
> As for hunting, you have certainly implied that you don't agree with predator hunting as a management tool. So you're selectively anti-hunting? Don't really care. I've got plenty of time in the field, looking for, hunting and studying these animals...and I'll continue to spend many more years doing that and expanding my understanding of these animals. You seem to have it all figured out though, so have fun with your "combat-bred" dogs and stay safe.


Mansplaining at its finest. I am glad you're happy in your ignorance and arrogance.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

At this junction ... I got no choice:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dracovich said:


> As I said before, there is a reason I own large capable dogs. Predators often kill smaller dogs, not combat bred dogs. Your dog is more likely to be killed in a car accident, should we stop driving or start shooting our cars?


I don't know what size the coyotes are by everyone else, but they are huge here. They take down deer without issue. They favor killing smaller dogs, but in certain areas they will take on large single dogs and multiple large dogs. I am very hesitant to walk my dogs near where I live because I'm very close to a prairie path they use to move from area to area. They recently atracked a weim, 3 of them chased down 4 dogs(the coyotes jumped the fence and thrn continue to break the glass on the back door trying to get to the dogs. They don't play here. I don't bother them, I respect them and I have had no issues. When babies are born I sit outside and I can listen to them for hours--love it. I do not put my dogs in any situation that would require a fight with a coyote--it would not end well. 

They are huge and I'm only 30 minutes west of Chicago. These animals travel great distances.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

They are here but I have only seen one. Rocky I suspect ... noted them one of our later exercises and turned around and headed back to home ... on one of my "rare" occasions of using good sense ... I followed him. 

And yes "Coyotes" do lure dogs and attack them in packs. I heard from a "Breed Shall that mentioned" owner whose dogs was attacked by a pack of four Coyotes!" On his property ... his room mates let the dog out and that particular "Breed that shall not be mentioned " ... fought off four "Coyotes" ... the dog was hurt but he survived!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I had to look up "mansplaining" to make sure I knew what it meant....thought it was funny....but as a member of the male community.......I'm going to my safe zone now....I kind of built the area...but didn't bother to read the instructions.


McSuperG


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

We have coyotes living in town. I see them on the days I pedal to work. I wouldn't describe them as timid, they look pretty comfortable in an urban environment. I've seen them hanging out near the entrance of a Safeway store and had a couple stroll past me as I was checking out my plow truck for work this winter. I like coyotes, but I also have a healthy respect for them. i wouldn't be so dismissive of them as some suggest. 

This is a wiki link, but if even half the numbers are accurate that's a lot of attacks for a purportedly shy and timid animal.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Nigel said:


> We have coyotes living in town. I see them on the days I pedal to work. I wouldn't describe them as timid, they look pretty comfortable in an urban environment. I've seen them hanging out near the entrance of a Safeway store and had a couple stroll past me as I was checking out my plow truck for work this winter. I like coyotes, but I also have a healthy respect for them. i wouldn't be so dismissive of them as some suggest.
> 
> This is a wiki link, but if even half the numbers are accurate that's a lot of attacks for a purportedly shy and timid animal.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote_attacks_on_humans


You linked TWO confirmed fatalities caused by coyotes, according to Wikipedia anyway, which states "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." on the home page, making it not reliable.

Even so, I'm sure those fatalities are probably real, but TWO fatalities in all that time is not concerning to me. The supposed attacks are only REPORTS, and again, there are reports of UFO sightings. Dogs kill 20-30 people annually, and 2 deaths from 1981 to 2009, even taking population into consideration, makes dogs statistically *FAR* more dangerous.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Dracovich said:


> You linked TWO confirmed fatalities caused by coyotes, according to Wikipedia anyway, which states "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." on the home page, making it not reliable.
> 
> Even so, I'm sure those fatalities are probably real, but TWO fatalities in all that time is not concerning to me. The supposed attacks are only REPORTS, and again, there are reports of UFO sightings. Dogs kill 20-30 people annually, and 2 deaths from 1981 to 2009, even taking population into consideration, makes dogs statistically *FAR* more dangerous.


try reading down the page a littler further, there are numerous attacks, with several being adults. It's not all about fatalities. Wiki can be edited, but they do a decent job keeping up that for the most part. I picked a couple of the stories with times and locations and they can be verified with legit news stories.

Cows kill 20 people a year, what's that got to do with coyotes?


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Nigel said:


> try reading down the page a littler further, there are numerous attacks, with several being adults. It's not all about fatalities. Wiki can be edited, but they do a decent job keeping up that for the most part. I picked a couple of the stories with times and locations and they can be verified with legit news stories.
> 
> Cows kill 20 people a year, what's that got to do with coyotes?


I did read down the page, those were just reports, none of them confirmed. What do you mean keeping up that? It's an open encyclopedia for anyone to have at. Statistically and scientifically speaking, cows and dogs are far more dangerous than coyotes, but people aren't (generally) afraid of them. You're more likely to be attacked by a stranger, but we don't quiver in fear at the grocery store.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

A quick Google search on many of those reports will turn up a news story to accompany it. A bit of work I know, but I was surprised by the numbers, hence the reason I went thru the trouble of checking. I don't think anyone is suggesting to "be fearful" of the big bad coyote, only to be respectful of their potential as you would with any wild animal. And yes, people can be far more dangerous, few will dispute this.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Nigel said:


> A quick Google search on many of those reports will turn up a news story to accompany it. A bit of work I know, but I was surprised by the numbers, hence the reason I went thru the trouble of checking. I don't think anyone is suggesting to "be fearful" of the big bad coyote, only to be respectful of their potential as you would with any wild animal. And yes, people can be far more dangerous, few will dispute this.


If researched one can find that kids are often the targets and would be fatalities if not rescued.


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## DJGinger (Jun 5, 2013)

I had half coyote as a pet as a kid (mom was a wild that I rescued and set free after recovery, she kinda hung in the region where i lived after that. She cam and greeted and begged, then that night plopped them down on my porch as a "gift?" She left after two days just trotting merrily and tongue lolling. I really dont know her motivation, 2 months later I never saw her in area again.
Of the 3 the one female was very much oriented to us people. The small male died at 1 month old, the other male was skittish and ran away at about 8 mos old. I had Puppup for 7 years before she lived with my dad til dying at age 12. I had a great experince with her but know a guy a few years ago that had his pretty much cause havoc eating neighbor rabbits, cats and gardens.

As a natural undomesticated animal it is not best to think "pet" or even "companion" in most cases. Coyotes are milder, more curious and less aggressive than wolves, but they have a higher prey drive to small things and are not picky eaters. This puts small children at risk . Trouble is it depends on the very very individual animal. Many states , like with wolves, wont allow it, vet care may be difficult, they are escape artists though not as strong as wolves, they are great diggers and athletic in jump/climbing.

Puppup had problem sometimes with new animals in the neighborhood, cats represented temptation to chase (we had 4 of our own), new dogs were met with hostility.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Nigel said:


> A quick Google search on many of those reports will turn up a news story to accompany it. A bit of work I know, but I was surprised by the numbers, hence the reason I went thru the trouble of checking. I don't think anyone is suggesting to "be fearful" of the big bad coyote, only to be respectful of their potential as you would with any wild animal. And yes, people can be far more dangerous, few will dispute this.


I have no problem with being respectful of any predator, but to make them out to be more dangerous than they are in reality is absurd, especially to the point of making excuses to poach them for the fun of it. There's also news articles on UFO sightings.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dracovich said:


> I have no problem with being respectful of any predator, but to make them out to be more dangerous than they are in reality is absurd, especially to the point of making excuses to poach them for the fun of it. There's also news articles on UFO sightings.


I do not think they should be hunted or poached but I do think they are dangerous. I'm not going to pretend they aren't and most people do not respect them or their space.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Please don't misunderstand me, of course coyotes deserve respect and can be dangerous.

But there are studies showing how many coy-wolves live right in suburbs and cities and people don't even know they are there! So clearly, the coyotes are doing most of the avoidance of people, not the other way around. I'm sure lots of coyotes have watched me but I've never seen them. 

#1 animal killer in the world is mosquitoes, followed by humans, followed by various venomous snakes. Canids don't even make the list of top five mammal killers in the world- hippos of all things top that list, followed by Cape Buffalo. Here's a link to the study: Man vs. Beast: the odds of dying by animal where you live


In US, the #1 animal killers are deer, followed by bees/wasps/hornets, and then dogs, though more people die from horses and cows combined than dogs. 

A shark kills maybe one person in the US each year and yet we are very afraid of sharks... I guess there is something primal in our DNA for fear of sharks and fear of coyotes. But it doesn't mean we should gun them all down.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Dracovich said:


> I have no problem with being respectful of any predator, but to make them out to be more dangerous than they are in reality is absurd, especially to the point of making excuses to poach them for the fun of it. There's also news articles on UFO sightings.


Hmmm... Don't recall anyone advocating poaching, may have missed the post? "News" articles on Ufo sightings? If that's your thing knock yourself out. I'm not interested, unless somehow Elvis was involved, then it might be read worthy.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Nigel said:


> Hmmm... Don't recall anyone advocating poaching, may have missed the post? "News" articles on Ufo sightings? If that's your thing knock yourself out. I'm not interested, unless somehow Elvis was involved, then it might be read worthy.


Shoot on sight is poaching in almost every situation. You may have missed this in writing class, but comparing someone's argument with an extreme to invalidate it is the method I am using. News articles and reports are not reliable because they also apply to UFO sightings.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Dracovich said:


> Shoot on sight is poaching in almost every situation. You may have missed this in writing class, but comparing someone's argument with an extreme to invalidate it is the method I am using. News articles and reports are not reliable because they also apply to UFO sightings.


And yet threads get "out of hand" in your opinion. I would venture a guess that not using hyperbole would help with that, because some are going to take it literally.

(Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some good hyperbole, and I dearly love sarcasm, but I also figure someone is going to take it literally and freak out.)


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> And yet threads get "out of hand" in your opinion. I would venture a guess that not using hyperbole would help with that, because some are going to take it literally.
> 
> (Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some good hyperbole, and I dearly love sarcasm, but I also figure someone is going to take it literally and freak out.)


Is there some social rule that states that one cannot participate in an argument they find ridiculous? Seems that's what you're doing, as well.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Dracovich said:


> Is there some social rule that states that one cannot participate in an argument they find ridiculous? Seems that's what you're doing, as well.


HAHAHAHA no. I'm just saying that X is a reasonable, foreseeable consequence of Y. If I don't want X to happen, and it really really bugs me, then I should avoid doing Y.

Just trying to be helpful.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> HAHAHAHA no. I'm just saying that X is a reasonable, foreseeable consequence of Y. If I don't want X to happen, and it really really bugs me, then I should avoid doing Y.
> 
> Just trying to be helpful.


It does not effect my life at all, I just like to laugh at people when they make ridiculous claims, especially when 'backed up' by unreliable websites. 

People treat predators like they are werewolves and vampires, and I cant help but to poke fun at illogical fears.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Dracovich said:


> It does not effect my life at all, I just like to laugh at people when they make ridiculous claims, especially when 'backed up' by unreliable websites.
> 
> People treat predators like they are werewolves and vampires, and I cant help but to poke fun at illogical fears.


Pardon my mistake. It sounded like you were annoyed and unsure of how to handle that. I'm glad to hear that is not the case.


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## Dalko43 (Mar 30, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> It does not effect my life at all, I just like to laugh at people when they make ridiculous claims, especially when 'backed up' by unreliable websites.
> 
> People treat predators like they are werewolves and vampires, and I cant help but to poke fun at illogical fears.


No one was making them out to be "werewolves," though some here have pointed out how there have been quite a few negative interactions between coyotes and humans (though few of them have turned out fatal). The news sources aren't lacking..spend just a few minutes on Google and you'll turn up those stories. You can keep pretending those examples don't exist if it hurts your feelings though.

I personally respect the coyote as a predator and enjoy hearing it's yips and howls while out camping. I know that as a "mansplanning" hunter, I'm not technically not allowed to respect any animals....I guess I'll have to give up my man card in the near future.

By the way, your definition of a "poacher" was unique. I had grown up learning that a poacher was someone who shot an animal outside of season and/or regulation...but I guess I and many other hunters are now "poachers" for legally shooting deer and coyote and rabbit on sight.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh well ... people can do what they want. As for me ... I live in the high desert ... if I go up into the low mountains ... I might stumble upon an abandoned Coyote pup??? 

The state of NV owns wild life, but you can apply for a permit. And if I find an abandoned Coyote pup ... it's mine!!! If it happens ... I'll let folks know how that works out.


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

Well, it appears this thread got out of control rather quickly! I will just give my opinion that coyotes or any other wild creature should not be kept as pets. Wolf hybrids, scarey. Being tamed and being domesticated are two different things. I think monkeys and fennec Foxes and so forth are cute, but I cannot get past the foolish look of monkeys wearing dresses, etc. They belong in their natural habitats when ever possinle. Yes, I have had multiple tropical fish tanks and several tortoises, so perhaps this is a bit hypocritical.


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