# Need advice on breeding my female



## Cjem4 (Jan 28, 2010)

A little about my story is this; I have three White German Shepherd's (two females, one male) my youngest, Emma Grace, which just turned four in January comes into heat two to three times a year. I have considered breeding her with Sirrus, my male, which will turn 5 in February this time but here is what I have encountered. I have always kept them separated when she comes into heat but this time I ran them both together and of course he tried to mount and she attacked him! It was scary to say the least. She drew blood, grabbing his neck, throwing herself on him. Sirrus is such a sweet male. He laid on his back the whole time and yelped. I finally got her off of him and put her back into her pin. I have not let her run with him since. Is this a sign that she will not tolerate breeding? I grew up with GSD's and never had this problem. My other female Gretta, bread with Sirrus once and had no problem then I had her fixed. I need all the help I can get at this point. The only other time Emma is aggressive with him is when they are fed. Sirrus had always been the Alpha pack leader and the other two fall in line but I feel like she is trying to take his place by the domination traits she is starting to show?! Some breeders have told me to muzzle her while other have told me to muzzle her and hold her while he mounts?! I just don't think I could do that to her. Any and all suggestions on her behavior/breeding would help me out.
Thanks


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Females will typically only tolerate males trying to breed them at the point during their heat cycle right aroud ovulation. If it's not the time when they are prime for breeding, they often will not allow males to mate them and may be aggressive toward a male who tries.

Progesterone testing to determine when she is ready to breed, and only putting them together at those times, will probably help.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think it's a good thing that you've been watchful and conscious during Emma Grace's heat and have kept her apart from Sirrus during that time, so you don't end up with an accidental litter.

I am a little confused from your post as to whether you are looking for advice on whether you should or shouldn't breed Emma Grace and Sirrus, advice on how to breed her, or advice on how to tackle her aggression toward Sirrus? If you could clarify that, I think that would be very helpful to other posters here.

I would also love to know what you do prior to breeding in terms of health testing, and what activities you are involved in with your dogs? It's not terribly common that one meets a breeder who has two females AND a male who would all be a good match for one another in terms of what they will/may produce in their offspring.


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## Cjem4 (Jan 28, 2010)

I guess what I am wanting help with is if I should breed her with Sirrus. I don't like that fact that she attacked him. Is this a sign that I am not supposed to? I would love for them to have a litter of pups but I don't want to push her so to speak.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I guess that would really depend on what you are hoping to get out of the litter and what the dam and sire have to offer that would be worth taking the steps necessary for the breeding to take place.

If you are unsure whether it would be worth the trouble, I think you're already leaning toward not breeding them. In which case I would say, if it doesn't feel like the right thing to do, then don't do it.


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## Cjem4 (Jan 28, 2010)

I just had Gretta and Sirrus to begin with. To make a long story short, we live on 5 acres in the country and I run with them everyday. One afternoon my husband pulled out of the driveway and Gretta for some reason ran behind the truck and he ran over her. Six months in the vet clinic and $4000.00 dollars later, she is still with us but was fixed due to the fact that her pelvis was crushed. She is the best Shepherd in the world, but I guess I am a little partial. I actually rescued Emma when she was a puppy from a women that could not afford to keep her. They are very active everyday together on our property and I do have a trainer that comes periodically when I cannot run them as they should be. I am not looking to breed her more than once. Just one liter if possible then I will have her fixed. Hope that helps Historian


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Based on the information in your last post, TripleTime, my personal recommendation and feelings on the matter would be that I would not breed Emma Grace, and instead have her spayed and enjoy her as the wonderful companion that she is sure to be.

I know that your dogs are wonderful dogs and you enjoy them very much - you would not be here and asking questions and stating your concern about their welfare if they were not. But I believe that since you rescued Emma as a puppy, and you may not know about her background, lineage, and all that, it would not be right to breed her, especially when there are so many that are being put to sleep.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I think the act of mating is the LEAST stressful part to a female when it comes to producing a litter. 

This is coming from someone who just did an emergency C section, $1300, for 3 very large puppies. Had I not happen to inquire with my reproduction vet, I would (not could, one pup was indeed too large to pass) have easily lost the entire litter, if not my female with it. My local vets are of no or little help when it comes to complcations during labor. Just food for thought, think about what you are signing up for.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: TripleTime I am not looking to breed her more than once. Just one liter if possible then I will have her fixed.


Why do you want to breed her? Has her hips/health been checked? Do you have her papers? What would you be hoping to get out of the pups (not money wise, but personality, etc wise)?


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## Cjem4 (Jan 28, 2010)

Her health has been checked and she is AKC registered. They both have outstanding loyal qualities and demeanor. I have some family and friends that have asked if they could have one of their pups if I ever decided to breed them. I guess that is what I am hoping to get out of this situation. Loyal, loving GSD's for family and friends to have as companions. And yes, I myself have been through the whole c-section with Gretta and large pups before she was fixed.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

What does "her health has been checked" mean? Have you had their hips and elbows x-rayed? Have you received an OFA certification?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

If her pelvis has been crushed, it could be very very dangerous for to be pregant/give birth.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Angel, that's his other dog. I'm not condoning this breeding, just a word of advice. Confirm that list of family and friends - get them to give you a couple hundred bucks deposit towards puppy expenses. Betcha that list will get short real quick.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

TripleTime - this is a very large dog forum, and you will receive many opinions about breeding that come from very experienced breeders, people active in various dog sports, and people who are involved with rescue. 

I think that the general consensus will be that, based on what you have told us on this thread, you should not be breeding the dogs you have now. 

AKC registration really does not mean anything at all, except that her parents were both registered as purbred German Shepherds with the American Kennel Club. It does not mean she came from a good breeding or a responsible breeder, and it does not mean that she is of good quality, matches the breed standard, or has any outstanding qualities beyond being a wonderful pet and companion.

Health checks also do involve more than a trip to the veterinarian to get a clean bill of health. Health checking means things such as having hip and elbow x-rays taken and sending them in to OFFA to have them rated accordingly. It also means doing blood tests for common genetic disorders that could be passed on to the progeny.

And while loyalty and a lovely temperament are both wonderful things in a dog, they do not themselves constitute that the dog should be bred or that the dog contributes anything to the German Shepherd breed as a whole. Working your dog and trialing your dog in a sport or some other venue, such as actually herding sheep on an active farm, are indicators to the dog's abilities and traits that may (or may not) be good to pass on to progeny.

I think it's wonderful that you have family and friends who would love pups from your dogs, but I think that there are many ways in which they could get wonderful dogs for their own families, such as breed rescue, for example. Because your Emma Grace is herself a rescue dog, I think that showing people what a good girl she is could really encourage them to get a rescue dog as well.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Why not just go through a reputable breeder who knows what they're doing? Spay your bitch and save yourself the trouble. 
You can get loyal and breed worthy dog through reputable breeders as well.








The only difference is you'll end up with 1, not up to 12.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Well said Chris. Lets all leave it at that. This board could be a valuable resource for the OP. Or we could drive her off to do whatever she wants anyway.


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

Well worth repeating....



> Originally Posted By: HistorianTripleTime - this is a very large dog forum, and you will receive many opinions about breeding that come from very experienced breeders, people active in various dog sports, and people who are involved with rescue.
> 
> I think that the general consensus will be that, based on what you have told us on this thread, you should not be breeding the dogs you have now.
> 
> ...


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## Cjem4 (Jan 28, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your advice and input. I will consult with my husband and let him know what all I have found out.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaAngel, that's his other dog. I'm not condoning this breeding, just a word of advice. Confirm that list of family and friends - get them to give you a couple hundred bucks deposit towards puppy expenses. Betcha that list will get short real quick.


Good advice. Don't give the pup for free, not even to friends and family. Statistics show that "free pups from relatives" have a bigger chance to end in a shelter against a purchased pup where the owner did a good deal of thought before spending money and researching time in a breeder.

The dogs are yours, and we can't decide for you, but be aware, when reading this thread, that most people in this board would not choose to do a breeding with the dogs you have if we were in your shoes. It is not that anybody has nothing against your dogs, less against you, it is only that we have not enough information to suppose this litter will have optimal health and temperament yet.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

I think Rokenhaus was more commenting that you want to make sure you have a vet overseeing your dog that will be able to determine <u>in advance</u> that one of the pups is too large & have a C-section scheduled.

An aquaintance had an oops litter last year (male bred female though the crate door) & did all the ultrasounds etc so she knew how many pups were expected, arranged homes for pups + 1 (just in case someone changed their mind/circumstances etc), made everyone fill out puppy applicaions, accepted deposits (she basically charged the cost for puppy deworming, vaccines & a spay/neuter certificate pre-arranged with her vet) ... puppies were born, lost 1, had some trials with the mom getting mastitus, pups & mum needing antibiotics because of the mastitus, supplemental bottle feeding of the pups as mum had lost too much weight & was refusing to eat ... new puppy owners visited regularly & bonded with their pups

AND still she had 3 people change their minds when the pups were ready to go to their new homes - one friend actually took the pup home for 2 days & then decided she didn't want a pup afterall









Total cost of the litter ~$2000 OVER what she charged for the pups! (not counting time spent & laundry but including food & vet bills)

So be very certain that your friends & family are really committed not just to the puppies & the idea of having dogs but actually committed enough to be the kind of owner you are! (how many of these prospective puppy homes would've saved your other girl vs deciding they didn't have the funds for the emergency treatment + possible longterm health costs of a potentially incontinent, lame dog







)

Personally I'd spay your girl & get a wonderful puppy from another breeder or rescue & let your friends & relatives know where you got your pup so they can get one too


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

My point was the OP is being concerned about the stress when the female is bred, and I was relating that the stress of being bred is the nothing compared to the pain and stress of the actual whelping.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Wanting to add...

We all love this breed to pieces. This breed has a whole lot of health problems, at least *30* that are hereditary and many which are serious. The breed also has a lot of temperament problems that may not be evident to the average owner. In short, all the reputable breeders out there are STRUGGLING to resolve so many issues in the German shepherd breed while maintaining working ability and the qualities that make it great at everything, especially being a pet.

How did all these health and temperament problems arise? Most of the blame can be pinned on people breeding for fun or "just one litter" without carefully considering the breeding pair. Unless you are spaying and neutering each puppy before going to its prospective home, you are not just breeding one litter, but each subsequent litter as well! Say your male has a bit of a nerve issue (hates thunderstorms) and your female has hip dysplasia that is not quite yet apparent without proper xrays. So you have a litter, then those puppies grow up and some have their own litters. If those owners aren't careful, things could get so much worse- crippling hip dysplasia and fear biting. This is just one litter. Now keep in mind how many people out there are breeding for "just one litter," how many commercial operations are out there pumping out pups, and how many people are buying these pups and may have a litter of their own.

Think about that and then maybe you will understand why you are getting so many questions. If you love the breed, please spay/neuter your pets and support breeding programs of those who are working to preserve good health and temperament, those who are striving to keep the GSD the best it can be.









On a side note, the white shepherd people are REALLY working hard to improve health and maintain good temperament in their breed... yes, in some cases, white shepherds are a separate breed from German shepherds.. kind of a fuzzy area.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)




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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Are there studies that show temperment is heriditary? Off topic a little I apologize btw. I wonder because in large temperment can be manipulated by so many environmental factors I'm not sure in whole it could be attributed to genes. 

I got my Zoe from what many would call a backyard breeder though yes genetic, hips, elbows, and other tests were done before they decided to go through with it. The mother was seen during her pregnancy, the morning after the pups were born, and a few weeks after as well as the pups.

They followed the vets advice to a tee and had all pups sold by 9 weeks mostly to fellow police officers since this is a police family. None of Zoes parents or grandparents are titled or working dogs, but the bulk of dog owners do not purchase a dog to work, and instead to be a companion.

I can see the importance of genetic, hips, and elbow testing to keep the breed healthwise at its best, but lineage as far as temperment and titles seem less important for the average family pet. For the working or show dog sure.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Daniellec
> I can see the importance of genetic, hips, and elbow testing to keep the breed healthwise at its best, but lineage as far as temperment and titles seem less important for the average family pet. For the working or show dog sure.


I don't know about anyone else, but my family pets are asked to put up with a whole lot...children in and out of my home, visitors, typical suburban neighborhood, other pets and busy schedules are just the tip of the iceberg here. I think a family pet needs to have a rock solid temperament, too. They sure need to deal with a lifestyle that requires the ability to roll with the punches.

Titles in something and health tests prior to breeding are a part of doing right by the breed. Not the only part, but a big part. I think pet puppy buyers should be just as discriminating in their decision making as national level competitors are. Do the dogs we trust not to bite our children or eat the family cat deserve less of a good start than a working or show dog?
Sheilah


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Daniellec
> 
> I can see the importance of genetic, hips, and elbow testing to keep the breed healthwise at its best, but lineage as far as temperment and titles seem less important for the average family pet. For the working or show dog sure.












Temperment is CRUCIAL for a family pet.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: DaniellecAre there studies that show temperment is heriditary? [..] but lineage as far as temperment and titles seem less important for the average family pet.


I don't know about studies - don't hold much faith in them either. someone wants to make a point, there's always data to support their point and data that doesn't support it can be excluded. If it's a study, I want to see the word BLIND infront of that before I believe a word of it.

What I do know is my Otto comes from working lines, SCHHII father, Mother is a grafental. This puppy is a rock for his young age. He always has been. There's 3 children here - they're 6 and 5 years old, they get wild sometimes. Otto ignores it. Not since he was very small has he gotten excited by them running around. He's been having a few grumbles with my oldest lately over being near his food but other than that, he's been a rock. My 8 1/2 year old rescue female, she STILL just tonight gets excited when they run around. Stuff that Otto would ignore or lift his head and be like whatever, Morgan will chase them around.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

They all deserve the best start regardless of working or pet status, but if your not going to show or work the dog titles of the parents to me seem less important than the health and genetic testing. My home is like yours, but is temperment learned or actually genetic in dogs?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I guess I suck at conveying questions. I think temperment is important, but is it related to lineage? My lab is unaffected by my kids and so is Zoe. Both of the dogs breeders were parents of 4 kids so they were raised for the first 8 week in chaotic homes with kids, noise, and commotion. In a sense they were unintentionally conditioned to tolerate such madness as normal because of their environment. 

My labs parents are both titled, and he is smart, patient, and loving- I'm just not sure his lineage is the reason. I'm trying to learn btw not be combative, I just never understood the pricetag on dogs from titled blood lines being so high. I hear the dog has a better chance of growing to standard, good health, intelligence, and yes temperment; but given the wrong environment and poor training the dog may still hate kids, people, and other dogs and still never win a title themselves. This has always made me ask the nature v. nurture question with dogs.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Nature vs nurture is debatable. I think with nature, nurture is easier. With Otto I never had to work on things I had to with Morgan. Things like being in a crowd, being at a parade where they're shooting muskets every 2 minutes and he learned all his command very young without question. Want yum yum, do trick.

Not that he's perfect. He's just easier becuase the deck was stacked in our favor. The line that he comes from on his mother's side is fabulous IMO. I've met many of his cousins, all great dogs.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DaniellecMy home is like yours, but is temperment learned or actually genetic in dogs?


Well, I can tell you that my 3.5 year old male GSD has a similar (in many ways) temperament to his younger half-brother that is owned by a fellow board member here. They were raised in different environments, but we have seen some of the same issues with them. So, yes, I think that some aspects of temperament are genetic. A lot of it is learned, but I absolutely see a genetic link, too.

If breeders can reliably reproduce certain behavioral attributes that make training for a specific task easier, like a biddable sheep dog or a tenacious hound that won't give up a scent trail, why would it be so far fetched to think that weak nerves couldn't also be part of genetic make-up? If we can breed for desirable behavioral attributes, why wouldn't undesirable attributes also be possible?
Sheilah


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Temperament is very much genetics and also very much environment. Genetics is the foundation and will dictate the potential whereas environment will dictate whether or not that potential is reached, at least that is how I look at it.







Starting with crappy genetics means the best trainer will have a "dog project" and starting with the best genetics means the sky is the limit. 

For a pet, temperament is absolutely CRUCIAL. Dogs have to put up with people who are dog-naive or dog-ignorant, sometimes very poor (though well-intentioned) handling, kids being kids, the constant runaway ill-tempered dog down the street, loud city noises, the list goes on. A pro or seasoned dog-savvy handler can deal with the dogs of less stable temperament but the young family who is new to dogs ABSOLUTELY needs 1000000% stability for there to be full success.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

So then its not thought a dog with poor or at least untitled lineage can reach the same potential? Hmmm this is interesting. Is there any "good" literature on the genetic impact of temperment you guys know of? I have searched the web, but find nothing but speculative ideologies. Henry the lab was a charm to train. At 6 and unaltered he is not hyper, aggressive, and is always "on me" when we are out and about. Zoe has been the same so far and while she loves crowds only kid strangers and other dogs get sweet puppy kisses, adults get stared at,lol though she has stopped shying away from them in the last few days.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Well, if breeding dogs aren't being tested in some way, how does a breeder know if they are worthy of being reproduced?

I am always amazed when people tell me that they want to breed their un-tested dogs simply because they have such great temperaments and are such wonderful pets. I always ask them how they know if their dogs have such solid temperaments if all they know is their home, the local park and maybe a relative's house. Does an unbiased, breed knowledgeable third party also consider the dogs to be breeding worthy after watching the dogs perform some task, graded against an objective standard? Can that dog remain unruffled and solid in a strange place? 

All I know is that I can spot a particular local breeder's dogs a mile off, all based on their temperaments. I am sure a lot of that has to do with those first crucial weeks after birth, before they got sent out into the world. But some of it has to be genetic, too. 

I can't speak for anyone else. But I don't believe that an untitled dog can't reach the same potential as a titled dog. What I am saying is that before a dog is allowed to reproduce, a breeder should first determine what that particular dog's full potential is. And certain benchmarks should be reached before breeding that dog. Just assuming that the benchmarks *could* be met without testing that assumption defeats the purpose. 
Sheilah
P.S. I am using the term "tilted" to mean some type of formal recognition in some type of performance event. It doesn't matter what it is: agility, herding, schutzhund, conformation, etc. For me, there just needs to be some measurement against an objective standard, where the dog has been successful in meeting a basic standard of achievement.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Temperament is primarily genetic. Certainly environment and training can play a role in the expression of temperament via behavior, but it cannot change core temperament. Additionally, how much of a role environment can play is also determined by genetics. If a dog's genetic temperament is strongly geared to one direction or another, good or bad, environment has very little influence. In other words, a dog with genetically very strong temperament is going to be very, very difficult to mess up. And if that does happen due to bad environment, if removed from the bad environment and placed in a good one, the dog with strong genetic temperament will rebound with little long term baggage. Conversely, a dog with genetically weak temperament is going to be problematic, even if in the best environment. Then there are dogs who fit somewhere in the middle between those two extremes, without a strong genetic predisposition one way or the other, making them a bit more able to be influenced by environment.

So yes, when it comes to temperament, lineage in the sense of the genetic temperament traits that are present in that line is of utmost importance. Far moreso than environment.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Danielle - titling a dog is not so much about earning the actual title, but about working the dog and seeing it perform in different environments, under different levels of pressure, observed by a third party who can objectively judge the dog.

Also, you can work a dog under all those conditions without pursuing any sport titles. Military Working Dogs don't have sport titles, but they are most certainly asked to perform to a high standard under difficult conditions. Service Dogs don't have sport titles, either, but they are also asked to perform to a high standard under difficult conditions.

What it comes down to is that these dogs are worked in some venue, observed by an impartial observer, and rated accordingly. If the owner does the training, or is actively involved with the training and working, it's even better, because he (or she) is the one who, in the end, needs to take that information learned about the dog and decide whether or not to breed and whether or not there is anything worth passing on there.

Temperament is genetic to some extent. I, like many folks here, have been to some of the conformation shows and met dogs who were gorgeous but very spooky, if not fearful. These are dogs that travel a lot and show in various conformation venues. They're handled, groomed, trained, etc. but that still does not make up for the fact that they don't have that rock solid temperament as a foundation.

JMHO.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I totally agree with ^^chris)

Also, think of how many times you've heard "he/she is just like his mother/father"...

and also think, (just as an example here), how many times have people adopted/rescued dogs, that have come from abusive situations and are totally 'forgiving' to a new family..

I think if you start with a sound dog, you'll end up with a sound dog even tho they may have gone thru alot of undesirable experiences.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think all this makes sense thanks everyone for your patience and explainations!!!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Thanks Chris for that post!

i have living proof of what you explained.........and i totally agree!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think it's a terrible idea to breed primarily for "loving and loyal family pets." For every child that is born, there are seven "loving and loyal family pets" being born. SEVEN!!

About 6 million pets enter animal shelters every year. Of those, 60% to 70% are euthanized. Roughly 25% of dogs in shelters are purebred, and 60-70% were acquired from friends or family members. 


**sorry, that was a bit of a rant. I'm feeling tetchy because I just picked up a _gorgeous_ 8 or 9 month old purebred shepherd at the animal shelter. He'd been there almost a month and was about to be put down.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

For every child that is born, there are seven "loving and loyal family pets" being born. SEVEN


If you told me that a few years ago, I would still be BEGGING my parents to let me have 7 dogs.. 
Think about if every 'good' dog was bred though.. just once.
I'm sure if you went to your nearest animal shelter and saw all the dogs and cats suffering in cages instead of running around with a loving owner.. you would change your mind about breeding Emma Grace. On that note, I don't think that anybody is trying to change your mind but insight about these things is always good.
To me, it seems like some breeds have already been destroyed by puppy mills to pet shops and people breeding just because. I have a lot of friends who have smaller dogs and breed them. They even tried to breed a 2.5 pound yorkie (I'm serious)
If you were a bulldog breeder, breeding because you wanted puppies like the parents without full knowledge on how to handle the birth of the puppies.. you'd be in for it. 
I'm not saying you can't get a good GSD or any dog from a BYB because you can. Sometimes people and the dogs get lucky, but most of the time these dogs aren't tested towards things that matter.
But the chances of recieving a sound dog (to me anyways) seem higher if you got him/her from a responsible breeder, who does extensive testing. Testing costs, too. IF you breed Emma Grace and IF you test her before hand you might want to ask people to pay a good price for the puppies. Puppies can be expensive but the care provided to the bitch before they are born and before the pregnacy, and during the pregnacy can add up to an awful lot. Like somebody else said, somebody they knew had lost $2000.00 from one litter.
There are too many dogs and puppies in shelters for terrible reasons. You don't exactly know that one of your puppies wouldn't end up in a shelter too.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So does this mean that we should only have seven dogs in the course of our lifetime? Because I am way over that already, more than double. 

There are statistics all over the place, and most of them can be manipulated to say what you want them to.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> There are statistics all over the place, and most of them can be manipulated to say what you want them to.


Which is true - but statistics aside, there is no good reason to breed a dog for the sake of producing "pet" quality puppies when there are already so many breeders breeding for show or working and each of their litters produces pet quality pups for good homes. There's simply no need for John Public to buy a dog, consider it to be "a great dog" and a "loving companion", and then breed and sell puppies. That just hurts the breed.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> So does this mean that we should only have seven dogs in the course of our lifetime? Because I am way over that already, more than double.
> 
> There are statistics all over the place, and most of them can be manipulated to say what you want them to.


Then what should we base our argument on? Emotion?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> So does this mean that we should only have seven dogs in the course of our lifetime? Because I am way over that already, more than double.


Assuming the statistics are accurate, just because there are 7 dogs born for each person doesn't mean a person should only HAVE 7 dogs. For one thing many people never own a single dog in their lifetime, so there are plenty of "extra" dogs right there. 
Even if these statistics are not correct, one only has to visit a shelter to see that there is an overpopulation of dogs and not enough homes willing to adopt them all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And yet we have shelters going out of the country to bring puppies back, because they cannot supply the demand for puppies. This was a year or so ago, and they brought some rabid puppies into the country. 

Right now with the economy as it is puppies are a hard sell even if you are going about things properly and for the right reasons. 

I do not think everyone who has a nice registered dog should breed it, but I do not buy the 7 puppies for every baby born statistic as a reason not to breed. There are better ones.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the county I lived in in WV also ships in puppies for adoption. The problem is, as soon as they aren't puppies anymore, they end up right back at the pound. There are PLENTY of pups already at the pound, but everyone wants lab puppies and most of the shelter dogs are hunting mixes. Since the pound neuters all the pups before they go to their new home, the people just keep going to the shelter for new ones.

I know people who have adopted 3 or 4. They keep the pup until it becomes a "teenager" then take them back to the shelter and pick up a new puppy.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

selzer said:


> There are statistics all over the place, and most of them can be manipulated to say what you want them to.


80% of statistics are made up on the spot. 

Sorry, couldn't resist. 

Its not about dogs, but if someone wants to learn more about the genetics of temperament there have been MANY studies with monkeys that are used in psychology. With one study off the top of my head, they took very nervy mothers and very stable mothers and swapped the babies at birth so the one with the stable mother grew up with the nervy mother and nervy mothered grew up with the stable mother. The results showed that despite the environment (being raised with the opposite temperament mothers) the young monkeys temperament was very similar to their genetic mothers. There are also twin studies and adoption studies on the issues of temperament and genetics.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think genetics and temperament are most important for the family pet. Those who show and work dogs often have lots of experience and can make it with temperaments that others may not. Of course, for a particular task, the working dog needs genetic propensities. 

A dog in a home as a pet is often the most "on its own" type of dog and the genetics of the temperament are paramount.

I heard a statistic that a dog has a 1 in 10 chance of staying in its first home. I wonder how much of this is due to genetic temperament issues.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it has to do with poor ownership knowledge/responsibility to train the dog than the temperament. Many of the dogs in rescue have better temperaments than expected, especially with what baggage they may carry. And if the breeders were responsible, the dogs would have been sent back to them, vs dumped at a shelter.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm not a fan of designer breeds. I'm not a fan of BYB. I'm not a fan of producing pups for the sake of a dollar. Hec, I've had my pup for 3 months, and I've been approached several times by people wanting to bred to him. One was by a rot owner. What would be the purpose of that? $$$, is all. That really makes my blood boil. REALLY ticks me off. 

Hondo will be x-rayed. That will determine if I have him altered or leave him intact. Unless he developes some behavior issues, or something of that nature. But my schedule with the vet is for him to be x-rayed first. Unless he begins pooping gold and diamonds, then I ain't changing nothing!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, it is true about the shelter dogs many times. I have three rescues here that are wonderful.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Temperment is so important, read the ads of people looking to re-home a young dog, great tempered but hides under the bed during thunder, great tempered but a good guard dog, just needs to meet all visitors at least 3 times or they will be bit, great tempered but scared to be left alone, great tempered but.... 
How many re-homes come from great kennels? Yeah things happen but start with the best you can, don't breed for the sake of breeding, have a plan and direction and purpose. Train you dog, love your dog, do all you can, then buy another from a reputable place or rescue a great dog. DON'T breed for the sake of having pups.


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