# Prong Collar or Gentle Leader?



## TheVintageAngel

Jemma is just about 6 months old, and I really need to either fit her with a prong collar or order her a gentle leader collar for her walks. She, like all the other pups here, is all muscle and energy, and on our walks if she sees another dog or jogger...she pulls, jumps, and just generally loses control (in a playful way, but it matters not to the other party in question). She also does this same type of thing when we are going somewhere really exciting...like daycare or the pet store....and I'm tired of looking like the pathetic little woman hanging on for dear life with the raging white beast - lol.

I'm trying to decide which avenue to take. I have some people that swear by one or the other. I have done research and both seem to work...but I thought I'd bring my question here to see what you guys suggest....

I did order the Cesar Millan collar that is double (almost like a turtle neck for pups - haha), but that is not safe until she's a year old....so that's in waiting...must do something now.

Up until now, she's had a flat, nylon collar...when I give her corrections while we see another dog passing...well, let's just say this is not enough for us right now.


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## Lilie

I use the Halti. It works very well for me. My dog was irritated by it at first, attempted to shake it off, and would also rub his face on the ground. But after he got used to it, I've never had any problems with him. 

What I like about the Halti, is if my dog begins to focus on something (dog, person, cat) I can give a small correction - which breaks the stare (moves his face) and I've stopped the reaction before it even starts. That works best for my dog. 

I like having control of his face.


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## GregK

TheVintageAngel said:


> Up until now, she's had a flat, nylon collar...when I give her corrections while we see another dog passing...well, let's just say this is not enough for us right now.


 
Work on your dog's attention behavior while another dog's passing instead of jerking on the leash.


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## wyoung2153

I use a head collar as well and it worked wonders for my walks with Titan. I am however looking into a prong collar for my Boerboel. She is a little stronger than Titan was just not sure the best avenue.. so I'm interested to see what people have to say..


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## RocketDog

GregK said:


> Work on your dog's attention behavior while another dog's passing instead of jerking on the leash.


This is obvious. 

However, some dogs are more social than others, and when in a small confined area (which yes, sometimes you HAVE to take the dog in such situations) it's putting them past the threshold where food or even yourself is not as stimulating or attractive as that other friendly pup 5 feet away.


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## GregK

RocketDog said:


> This is obvious.


No, it's not to a lot of people.





RocketDog said:


> However, some dogs are more social than others, and when in a small confined area (which yes, sometimes you HAVE to take the dog in such situations) it's putting them past the threshold where food or even yourself is not as stimulating or attractive as that other friendly pup 5 feet away.


Right, so you work on the other side of threshold first. Get is solid. Then progress.


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## Whiteboy

My pup pulls at times and I started using the gental leader.. He is not use to it yet and at times throws his nose into the ground and try's to get it off with his paws. I dot use a prong cause he seems to over react to physical corrections and the gental leader is well... Gental. But I have noticed he is getting better on walks ad when not over stimulated pays attention and walks right.


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## RocketDog

GregK said:


> No, it's not to a lot of people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Right, so you work on the other side of threshold first. Get is solid. Then progress.


So tell me how to avoid the over threshold in situations like, say going to training class....going to the vet's, stuff like that. 

Stand outside of the class the entire time, looking in the window and staying 20 ft away until you've achieved solidity in that respect?


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## GregK

RocketDog said:


> Stand outside of the class the entire time, looking in the window and staying 20 ft away until you've achieved solidity in that respect?


What's with the attitude?


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## qbchottu

TheVintageAngel said:


> Up until now, she's had a flat, nylon collar...when I give her corrections while we see another dog passing...well, let's just say this is not enough for us right now.


Use a prong if you want to give corrections and limit excessive pulling. Of course the bigger issue is her lack of focus on you and the fact that she doesn't heel on a loose leash. Both of that could be due to puppyhood, but she should be actively worked in obedience to stop these problems. 

I'm not a fan of gentle leaders and I wouldn't use a gentle leader to give corrections. It will rub the skin around the face and head raw if you jerk with too much pressure.


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## RocketDog

GregK said:


> What's with the attitude?



No attitude. I just find posts like that unhelpful. I'm serious. My dog has a FABULOUS temperament. He played fetch with a 4 year old yesterday, and everyone watching was impressed with how gentle he was, how he released the second she asked him, and just how well behaved he was. However, I am struggling with the same issue the OP has. The second he gets within close proximity to another dog, he is just as apt to pull me along, making me look like a crazy lady trying to dig her heels in. It's because he is Mr. Ryan Seacrest, happy-go-lucky HELLO I'M HERE. 

I'd really like to know how to avoid putting him over his threshold in those situations I'm referencing. How do I avoid him coming into proximity entering and exiting training class? Walking into the vet? Etc?

I'm sure the OP would like to hear, too.


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## kiya

RocketDog said:


> So tell me how to avoid the over threshold in situations like, say going to training class....going to the vet's, stuff like that.
> 
> *Stand outside of the class the entire time, looking in the window and staying 20 ft away until you've achieved solidity in that respect*?


Actually yes. I know a woman, her male is about 2 now. Last summer, I saw her sitting in the parking lot of our dog class school with her dog. I headed over to say hello and she asked me to stop and not come closer. He had started becoming reactive, DA as well. She used to sit in that parking lot and let him watch the other dogs come & go, there is also a pet store that you can bring your dog in so he got a double dose.


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## Lilie

qbchottu said:


> .
> 
> I'm not a fan of gentle leaders and I wouldn't use a gentle leader to give corrections. It will rub the skin around the face and head raw if you jerk with too much pressure.


I suppose it could. But I can say that I've used the Halti on my dog for the last two years. He's never been rubbed raw. I would think you could do worse damage to your dog with the Halti or Gentle Leader if you're jerking with such pressure your dog is getting raw. But - if you are having to use that much pressure with either of those, then you've got much bigger problems.


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## RocketDog

Yes, I do that too.  As he's only 8 months old though, I feel that BEING in training classes are beneficial too. 

BTW, OP, I did try a prong on him in one class. It worked very well. I'm considering buying one, I just am stubborn about training him on a flat buckle collar. 

ETA: This was for Kiya's post. Lilie slipped inbetween.


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## qbchottu

Lilie said:


> I suppose it could. But I can say that I've used the Halti on my dog for the last two years. He's never been rubbed raw. I would think you could do worse damage to your dog with the Halti or Gentle Leader if you're jerking with such pressure your dog is getting raw. But - if you are having to use that much pressure with either of those, then you've got much bigger problems.


I only discouraged the gentle leader because OP indicated she wanted to give corrections when the dog lunges at another dog during walks. I don't think you should use a gentle leader to give corrections. I have never used a gentle leader, but I have heard/seen raw areas and redness from other dogs being improperly corrected with a gentle leader.


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## Dakotasmom23

It depends greatly on the dog's temperament, nerves, and personality. If you have a confident, boisterous, strong nerved dog who doesn't wilt with corrections, or a dog who ignores corrections--then I use the prong. However, if you have a dog who is anxious, fearful, insecure, super submissive and responds easily to verbal corrections--then I use the gentle leader. I tend to try the gentle leader first with most dogs, then progress to a prong if the above criteria is true. The gentle leader is great if used in conjunction with counter conditioning. Goodluck.


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## Lilie

qbchottu said:


> I only discouraged the gentle leader because OP indicated she wanted to give corrections when the dog lunges at another dog during walks. I don't think you should use a gentle leader to give corrections. I have never used a gentle leader, but I have heard/seen raw areas and redness from other dogs being improperly corrected with a gentle leader.


I feel the same way about a prong! LOL! And I've never used one. I think I just worry when a person starts using harsh correctional devices on a puppy who isn't really balking at the request, but just doesn't have a strong foundation yet. 

You can't correct a behavior if the dog/puppy has no idea what the correct behavior is supposed to be.


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## Hillary_Plog

qbchottu said:


> I only discouraged the gentle leader because OP indicated she wanted to give corrections when the dog lunges at another dog during walks. I don't think you should use a gentle leader to give corrections. I have never used a gentle leader, but I have heard/seen raw areas and redness from other dogs being improperly corrected with a gentle leader.


:thumbup:
Exactly! 

OP, there are those that swear by one "certain" tool for loosh leash walking and having control over their dogs but not every dog is the same so you need to take into consideration your dog's pain threshold, handler sensitivity, environmental sensitivity and your own personal sense of comfort. 

For instance, I know people that still swear by choke collars...I wouldn't recommend them to "green" or "novice" handlers...but some people still have success with them. 

I ALSO don't recommend a halti or gentle leader...but, as I mentioned, some people do like them and find success with them (as you have seen with a few of the people here that have already commented). 

ANY tool can be used the wrong way, even a halti...do you have a trusted and respected trainer or obedience instructor in your area that you can consult? At least this way they could evaluate your dog in person and give you a better sense of what would work according to the criteria that I mentioned in my first paragraph.


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## qbchottu

Yes but a prong is generally used to give corrections to stop unwanted behaviors that can potentially harm the dog/handler (lunging at strange dogs) and a quick/firm correction with the prong will stop a behavior that is totally not allowed. A gentle leader is not created to use as a correction tool. It is supposed to limit pulling. If you are using a gentle leader to correct or if the dog is completely ignoring it to the point where it is creating raw areas, I think you would be better off with a prong. 

For my dogs, lunging at dogs and people is not acceptable in any scenario. I want my dogs to know that and to take that warning seriously. I don't unfairly correct a dog for not knowing to sit or down. But if I know the dog _knows_ that command and is just disobeying out of avoidance/resistance, then I will give a pop with the prong. But during the initial learning phase, the dogs do not get corrections for a command they don't know or understand. They will get corrected if they do completely unacceptable things like aggression towards another dog or person. Robin is really good at explaining this idea of training vs. behavior. I expect my dogs to behave a certain way in the house, around other people and in public. I train them to follow commands for obedience and dog sports. I simply don't tolerate unwanted behaviors, but I will be understanding, encouraging and guiding during training. 

Now in relation to another post, I would not use a prong on a soft dog. I can easily use a prong with my male because he can take hard corrections without being overly phased. In fact these days, it is a harsh tone from me that brings the most response rather than physical corrections. But that's only after our relationship was cemented and established. That relationship was helped by the prong. If you use the prong correctly, it can be a great training tool. Improperly used, like with any equipment, it can be an problem. But as OP said, jerks using a flat collar are not having an influence on her pup so she will have to move up to a harder form of correction imo. Take from this what you will. The best thing to do is enlist the help of a good trainer if you are having issues like this


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## Hillary_Plog

qbchottu said:


> Yes but a prong is generally used to give corrections to stop unwanted behaviors that can potentially harm the dog/handler (lunging at strange dogs) and a quick/firm correction with the prong will stop a behavior that is totally not allowed. A gentle leader is not created to use as a correction tool. It is supposed to limit pulling. If you are using a gentle leader to correct or if the dog is completely ignoring it to the point where it is creating raw areas, I think you would be better off with a prong.
> 
> For my dogs, lunging at dogs and people is not acceptable in any scenario. I want my dogs to know that and to take that warning seriously. I don't unfairly correct a dog for not knowing to sit or down. But if I know the dog _knows_ that command and is just disobeying out of avoidance/resistance, then I will give a pop with the prong. But during the initial learning phase, the dogs do not get corrections for a command they don't know or understand. They will get corrected if they do completely unacceptable things like aggression towards another dog or person. Robin is really good at explaining this idea of training vs. behavior. I expect my dogs to behave a certain way in the house, around other people and in public. I train them to follow commands for obedience and dog sports. I simply don't tolerate unwanted behaviors, but I will be understanding, encouraging and guiding during training.
> 
> Now in relation to another post, I would not use a prong on a soft dog. I can easily use a prong with my male because he can take hard corrections without being overly phased. In fact these days, it is a harsh tone from me that brings the most response rather than physical corrections. But that's only after our relationship was cemented and established. That relationship was helped by the prong. If you use the prong correctly, it can be a great training tool. Improperly used, like with any equipment, it can be an problem. But as OP said, jerks using a flat collar are not having an influence on her pup so she will have to move up to a harder form of correction imo. Take from this what you will. The best thing to do is enlist the help of a good trainer if you are having issues like this


Beautifully put...this is exactly the same philosophy that I adhere to as well.


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## &RIGGS

I just started using a Halti by recommendation of my trainer. Riggs is 4 months old and already very strong and, while not aggressive, very...interested...in other dogs:wild:. We used the Halti in class for a short period last night and I was very impressed with how well it works and how gentle it seems. Riggs caught on very quickly. He did attempt to "paw" it off and shake his head to get it off, but that's all part of the acclimation period. I don't anticipate it will take long for him to be completely used to it.

It's very nice to be able to very slightly pull on his leash and get a response from the dog. 

My trainer suggested starting with the Halti (or Gentle Leader) and saving the prong so you have something to progress to, if needed. She mentioned the pup potentially getting desensitized to it if it is used too early.


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## TheVintageAngel

To answer some of the questions/issues...Jemma's personality is VERY energetic, not the least bit fearful, playful and over-exhuberant when going anywhere where other dogs are (vets, pet store, doggie daycare, walks on our walking trail). If someone new comes over to visit, or someone she knows...she jumps, runs to greet with GREAT enthusiasm, etc. if I let her (I don't anymore, this is something we are working on with obedience training). She has been through puppy socialization type training and also is currently going through obedience training (private in home classes). I very much realize that I need to work on her focus on me and use positive reinforcement when she offers the correct behavior. But because of her age/personality, etc....she really goes over the top whenever another dog is approaching, or a jogger. There is NO proper behavior offered in these situations yet that I can reward. 

We play "this way" daily to work on focus where she walks on a loose leash well, right next to me and watches me while walking...she gets treated and praised. However, the INSTANT another dog enters her radar, this all falls apart. Waiting for her to offer the right behavior without correction right now is not an option in this scenario, or I'll be dragged face first toward on coming dog so she can play with them. I need better control of her, especially now that she's getting nice and big and strong and I weigh 110 pounds and am not the strongest of ladies.

I wasn't planning on using a correction with the gentle leader, but was hoping if she pulled, she'd wind up facing backwards and would stop herself from the behavior on her own. 

As for her pain thresh-hold...I suppose when she's in the "I see another dog coming" mode...it's pretty high....corrections with the nylon collar seem to not even be felt. Cesar type touching to distract or refocus are completely ignored.

As for waiting for her to learn to focus on me better...I'd never leave the house again...and then you'd all yell at me for not getting her enough exercise


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## GregK

RocketDog said:


> No attitude. I just find posts like that unhelpful. I'm serious.


 
Fair enough. You could of just asked for more details though. I have tons of stuff to write about this. Just limited time.

For now I'll say go ahead and use the prong in class. I'm not say tear his head off with corrections but use it to give youself that 'power steering' that will help control him.


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## RocketDog

OP, with the exception of a few minor points ( I don't have too many greeting issues and without CLOSE dogs my pup walks beautifully loose leash) you could be describing my pup! 

How old is yours again?


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## &RIGGS

RocketDog said:


> OP, with the exception of a few minor points ( I don't have too many greeting issues and without CLOSE dogs my pup walks beautifully loose leash) you could be describing my pup!
> 
> How old is yours again?


I second that! What about you? How old is RocketDog?


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## RocketDog

GregK said:


> Fair enough. You could of just asked for more details though. I have tons of stuff to write about this. Just limited time.
> 
> For now I'll say go ahead and use the prong in class. I'm not say tear his head off with corrections but use it to give youself that 'power steering' that will help control him.


You can PM me with suggestions when you have time.  

But honestly, I know this is a common scenario for pup owners. I'm sure many would love actual suggestions--after all, this is why we post. Sometimes obtuse is hard to translate.


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## TheVintageAngel

She'll be 6 months old in a few days. I'm seeing improvement in many areas with her through obedience training...but this is the worst of it and hardest to work through (and the most frustrating since I feel as if I nearly lose control of her on walks when we see another dog)...my trainer recommended a prong...but I always like to do my own research too - and was finding mixed feelings on them.


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## RocketDog

Rocket turned 8 months on the 15th.


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## RocketDog

I think the hardest thing about the prong is knowing what kind of dog you're using it on and what reaction you're actually dealing with. For me sometimes it's hard to tell whether it's a fear-based reaction or just a frustration-excitement reaction.


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## martemchik

My belief is that a prong can help you fix this problem and at one point you will be able to move to a regular collar without having an issue. A gentle leader on the other hand will probably always have to be worn, or at least worn for longer in order to get over this issue. My dog never cared about corrections until I got a prong. A snap with a prong doesn't phase him at all, so its really all about your dog. If your trainer suggested it, I'd go with it.


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## TheVintageAngel

Sounds good...I do appreciate all the great advice.

I suppose I'm just guessing that's it's excitement...I purposely socialized her with lots of other dogs at classes, play with friends with dogs, etc. and sometimes I feel like I created a monster...a play monster. I've seen her afraid a couple times...one time of a box our new vaccuum came in - LOL - so I don't *think* it's fear but I admittedly don't know for sure. I just have a high energy pup on my hands that LOVES play time with other dogs...so I assumed that's what it was.

Now the joggers...that could be fear...I'm not sure. I chalked it up to the fast movement...as we had the issue with her until only recently with moving cars...lunging and barking...took a TON of corrections, praise and treats when she didn't react, and hours of me standing in my front yard with her on leash as cars went by to get her over this...so I know there's hope...


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## Angelina03

I waited to post because I have the same concern as you. Jemma sound a lot like Rocco. He pulls, pulls, pulls, and goes crazy when he sees another dog (happy crazy because he just wants to play); and like you said, it's embarrasing sometimes because I can't control him.

At what age can you use a prong collar? I'm not going to use it until I get him back into training...just curious.


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## TheVintageAngel

6 months is the golden age where they can use a prong...Jemma is just a few days shy of her half b-day....

I just ordered one via www.leerburg.com and printed out their articles on fitting and properly using the prong collars. Very informative and I feel confident I know the do's and don'ts....now to wait for the delivery...should be timed just about right.


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## chelle

TheVintageAngel said:


> .....corrections with the nylon collar seem to not even be felt.


I wouldn't try to do corrections with the flat collar... call me paranoid, but I worry excessively about trachea damage, so that's why I went prong at about six months. 

I don't really know what to suggest to help you, but can you redirect with some thing really, really yummy?


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## RocketDog

So in case the OP is interested, Rocket and I went to class today wearing the harness that has the front ring and kind of tightens around the chest, that's supposed to stop pulling and he pulled just as bad when we were going in and he saw all the dogs in the small room. (They had given it to DH last week to try out). So the trainer asked if I'd ever tried the "Gentle Leader" halti, I said no, and she put it on him. He fussed for a couple of minutes, but it definitely made a difference. I was able to walk him by the other dogs, we sat right next to all the dogs, walked by them on the sidewalks, and he kinda tried to pull _a bit,_ but it was WAY easier to control him. Seriously I think I could've been wearing my 6" heels and been able to walk him by a dog. 

The thing is, I don't know if he would've been just as good by that point on a flat collar too, as he does tend to settle down. The thing I DIDN'T like was, it is really not a "correctable" collar--you can still say "NO" and give just a gentle tug but it's not really the same. I also worry about transitioning off of it, as it's SO OBVIOUS to the dog whether it's on or not, where as a prong can be on, but not clipped to a leash, then turned inside out, then just replaced with a heavier collar, etc. 

I brought home a HS prong to try too, as I don't know which one will work better. The interesting thing the trainer said to me is, when I talked about how I can issue a brief and succinct "correction" with the prong, to point out EXACTLY to Rocket what I DON'T want, she said, "remember, to HIM, the DOG, what he's doing isn't WRONG. It's just being a dog. Especially an 8 month old dog". It made me view it in a different light-- 

The halti did seem to calm him down also, but again, I'm not sure it was _exactly _what I want. The thing I guess I'm afraid of with the prong, is "correcting" him when he hasn't really learned what I want. I've always heard that prongs are best for correcting _when the dog chooses not to obey a known command. _

So if you look at it like she said, he's just being a dog, he doesn't really understand that what I _want_ is for him to ignore the other dogs and focus on me, unless given permission to go meet. I feel like this is one of those things I will only know for sure which is the right way in HINDSIGHT. Sigh.


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## vicky2200

The gentle leader did nothing for us. It helps dakota walk properly, but it leaves a mark on his muzzle because he still pulled, just not as much. Daisy makes a scene when we put it on her. She screams and rubs her face on the cement while walking (we tried to just keep going in hope that it would stop. it doesn't) Ditto also just paws at it the whole time. I do not support a prong collar, but I wouldn't recommend the gentle leader either. 
That being said, Ditto was a terrible walker until she was about a year old. Something just clicked and she walks much betters.


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## Freestep

A friend of mine used to use the prong collar for training sessions, and the Halti for control on regular walks. That dog was DA, and with prong collar, he would still pull and bark. With the Halti, however, he would not even try to go after other dogs.

One annoying thing about the Halti is that people on the street think it's a muzzle, and so assume the dog is vicious.


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## AkariKuragi

For the lack of not being able to correct your dog with the gentle leader, why not have the gentle leader and a correctable collar on at the same time, with two different leashes? That way you could give corrections while relying on the gentle leader to do it's thing. This is how I've seen it done, though I haven't done it myself with any of these things, so... Just a suggestion to throw out there. XD

And for the pulling, have you tried turning around and heading in the opposite direction? This might not be practical if you're trying to go somewhere, but you should see if you could find a friend who can bring their dog to help you with the unacceptable reaction to other dogs. Try to keep her attention, but as soon as she reacts, turn around and make her go the other way. That way she learns that the only way she can get where she wants to go is if she remains calm and focused on you.

I hope things work out with her. : )


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## lylol

My trainer suggested and I agree that the Snoot Loop brand dog head halter fits better and offers better control than the others I have tried. It is only avail on line.


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## Chicagocanine

Personally I would use a Halti or GL for that behavior. This will allow you to reward for good behavior when your dog is not pulling. In some dogs the head collar also has a calming effect.
I personally do not use prongs anymore although I used one with a previous dog. I would also be concerned with a prong collar, your dog may associate the correction with the person or dog they are trying to pull towards and could build a negative association. My dog did with the prong used in her previous home, when I got her it was to the point where ANY pressure on her neck would cause her reaction threshold to be MUCH lower (much more likely to react) to the point where even a flat collar connected to a leash would ramp her up.

However, if you use a headcollar I would be sure to not let the dog get jerked around by the collar, but instead use it to prevent the behavior (in other words pay attention, you don't want your puppy jumping and then getting jerked around by the collar.) 
I have used a Halti with a reactive dog who used to lunge and go nuts when she saw other dogs, and it has helped a lot, allowed me to control her and prevent the lunging while working on her learning how to be calm with other dogs present, and not to react.


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## lorihd

well i took lexie to obedience classes at 6mo and the pulling and the jumping with the other dogs, gosh, my trainer recommended the prong, she fitted lexie with one and showed me how to use it , well im sorry it took me a month to switch from a correction collar to a prong, no pulling, no jumping, what a huge difference it has made. i can say for me anyway it has all been positive. good luck


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## Shade

I've used the gentle leader before and found it great

I actually just purchased the new trix easy way collar today, it's very similar to the gentle leader but pulls from the back of the head rather then under the chin.


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