# Secondary fear stage, bad breeding, socialization issues??



## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

I've talked about this in a different forum, but wanted to address it here, because I think it fits better. Titus is a 10 month old, mixed lines GSD. He was supposed to be bred basically as a family protector. We got him at 15 weeks, he hadn't been socialized. We tried to follow the basic advice about socializing. We had people over, he was excited, hyper, licky, jumpy, ECT. We went to the pet store, he got carsick every time, but wasn't shy with people. He got pano at 5 months, and the carsickness never got better, so we slowed down on the outings, from once a week to once every two weeks. He was increasingly nervous with strangers. We skied down even more, and completely stopped taking him to the pet store. Then the vet squeezed his painful leg, and he yelped and showed his teeth. He's not trusted strangers since that, and it takes me some time to carefully introduce him to people who come over. The trainers I've talked to mostly say that it's just because he's a German shepherd, but my other older GSD isn't like that at all. Her dad was a show dog who also has a Schutzhund title, and her mom was level 3 Schutzhund, bred for police and protection work. His parents seem more mixed than that, and I've had some advice that he might just have weak nerves. The breeder says it's mostly just his age, and he is learning who to trust. She also said we probably over socialized him. I thought we under socialized him. Has anyone had a pup go through a really difficult secondary fear stage like this, and turn out ok? Did we ruin him by taking him to the petstore? The black is Titus, Kona is in the back. The pedigrees are his parents.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No, you didn't ruin him. 

I don't think anyone can really answer your question directly without seeing the dog. Training also comes in to play and in the other thread you said when he's a butthead you only tell him No while using a halti that issues no correction. So the reason why doesn't really matter. The solution is obedience and black/white rules.

Hopefully David and Steve will post. They are both really good at describing solutions. I know what I would do but have a terrible time putting it into words to help others.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

You didn't ruin him by taking him to the pet store. I took Rollo to the pet store probably 100x when he was a puppy. But I do agree with Jax, the rules need to be 100% clear to the dog. They need to know exactly what behavior is acceptable & what behavior is not acceptable, and they need to be held accountable when they are engaging in an unacceptable behavior. The more a dog gets away with certain behaviors, the harder it becomes.


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

I've been told a pinch collar would make him more reactive, or likely to redirect. Is that not true? I did use one 15 years ago with my first shepherd who was reactive. She never really got to a point where she liked other dogs, but she was easy to walk. He struggles and whines, flips his head with the halti when other dogs are barking behind a fence, so I didn't think it's helping much. I'll try a pinch collar, I just don't want to make it worse. I think what I'm hearing is the socialization matters a lot less than genetics, is that right?


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

Also, is the secondary fear stage a real issue, or is the breeder making more of that than there is to distract from potential genetic problems?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It depends on how it's used and on the dog. A prong will help you control him while you teach him to walk on a leash so he doesn't hurt you. The choke collar is what I would use for the correction. He reacts, you lift up on the collar. You do not say a word. The correction is not about YOU, it's about the correction. I can send you a PM explaining how I do it maybe tomorrow.

Socializing matters. Don't get me wrong. How you socialize matters. Some people think flooding the dog with people and other dogs is great. I think that's all wrong. I think the puppy should be allowed to experience the world without being flooded.

Now, the other dogs barking behind the fence - you can't control that. And of course he's going to react. Your job is to teach him to ignore those dogs. You can't correct him for reacting. You teach him Leave It and to heel. Once he understands those, then you can give the command and if he ignores teh command, you can correct that.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Yea the prong or choke collar would be fine assuming it's used correctly! For either one, you need to correct the dog with it when he reacts. Like Jax said, don't yell "No, no no!" while you are doing it. The dog reacts, you give a quick little correction. When starting out, you don't want to put the dog in situations where you will be constantly correcting them, start small and work up in increments.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You could try contacting an IPO club and see if they have recommendations for trainers within a reasonable driving distance. Nia is in Olympia.
germanshepherddog.com
Cascade Schutzhund Verein

Timing for any correction is pretty important in this situation as well as the rewards for the correct behavior. Don't forget about the rewards. Black/white. Wrong-correction/Right-party.


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

Right, that all makes sense. I have the nylon choke, so I'll use that right away. I do use a single, firm No when he gets amped up around other dogs. What about when he is nervous and jumps back with people? We never really flooded him, and for the last 5 months or so, he's only had a handful of people he didn't already know try to pet him, under controlled circumstances. I never made him accept petting from anyone, I let him sniff, then they reach out, and he unusually backs up. We don't push him, and usually try to have them give him treats. The problem is, we rarely have anyone over. Most of the family isn't local, and we don't know many people in town. I could try going to a dog class, but most of them will only do private sessions for about 80-100 a session. I don't know how much help that will be, but it might be good to get him around someone who at least knows how to read dog body language, and has a calm dog we can work him around, in a controlled setting. Or I could just keep walking him in the neighborhood, and occasionally parks.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Jax08 said:


> You could try contacting an IPO club and see if they have recommendations for trainers within a reasonable driving distance. Nia is in Olympia.
> germanshepherddog.com
> Cascade Schutzhund Verein
> 
> Timing for any correction is pretty important in this situation as well as the rewards for the correct behavior. Don't forget about the rewards. Black/white. Wrong-correction/Right-party.


Absolutely! I can't believe I forgot to mention that. Figure out what your dog likes & motivates them, and incorporate that into their reward for correct behavior! (For Rollo, this is his tug - his absolute favorite thing in the world lol)


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'd just lump it under weak nerves and deal with it that way. Dogs like that are better with certainty and consistency in their life. Structure and routine. Random meeting of strangers or other dogs has them thinking too much about too many things. Things you don't view as random, in his mind really are. If you're going to use a prong or nylon, introduce it to him away from what bugs him. If you just put it on and try to correct him out of things, you're timing is generally going to be late and then the correction is just adding stress to his stress. Now you have conflict with you and thats one way you just amp them up or get a redirection. 

Don't quit taking him out though. Just use distance from things that bug him, play with him in as many places as possible. Think of people and dogs as distractions to be introduced later. Not through contact with them, just background that doesn't have any significance. Something I do is teach my dog Leave it very early. I walk him by something that will get a little attention, I say "Leave it" followed by an immediate pop with the leash and I just calmly keep moving. Later on I add in "Come" and I reward him for that. Then once I put a prong on, I use that same known sequence to introduce the prong. It helps teach a positive reaction to a prong correction. I use that basic sequence through their whole life.


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

Titus loves his ball, but not on a walk, or even if the neighbor dog is out. We will be having my in-laws toss it to him along with treats when they get here today. I think he'll like that. His prey drive is so high that he's on constant alert outside, I can get him to take treats most of the time. It's there any way to make him want the ball more, so that it's better than squirrels?


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

And I will contact someone about trainers in the area on Monday. Thanks for that. Finding a good trainer is frustrating at best. I think most of them don't know any more than I do (when I was young I worked as a trainer at Petsmart)


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

I will try that, Steve, thanks. What about having people over? Should I stick to the routine of counter conditioning?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You never stop counter conditioning. It will be a way of life for a weak nerved dog. The "counter conditioning" is just training and will help with the structure.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Michelle Asker said:


> I will try that, Steve, thanks. What about having people over? Should I stick to the routine of counter conditioning?


I wouldn't. Maybe I've just gotten lazy, but for me, whats the benefit to having my dog out with strangers? All I care about is that they're good with my wife and kids at home. When we have anyone over, I don't want to spend the time teaching a territorial dog to accept someone they may not see again for a month.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> Michelle Asker said:
> 
> 
> > I will try that, Steve, thanks. What about having people over? Should I stick to the routine of counter conditioning?
> ...


Couldn’t agree more with this. I have a 9yr old I got at 4yrs old, and she has weak nerves and fear aggression issues. If we are having people over, which is rarely, we put her in our room. When guests and dog have settled, we will let her out sometimes, and if she has a good reaction, she can hang out, if she seems nervous or alert, we put her back in the room. She LOVES being in my room, it’s her happy place. And she’s old, I don’t see the point in stressing her when we have infrequent guests. We let her out when DH’s family visits, because they are “regulars” and Lyka has never shown any discomfort around them. Which kinda sucks for me, I don’t like humans and it would give me an excuse to hide in my room with her if she didn’t like his family members ??? It’s usually easy to tell with her. She has the “I recognize that voice, I wanna say hi” bark, and then she has the “who the heck is that stranger talking, and what they heck are they doing in my house, let me out to bite them” bark. She’s only been uncomfortable with 2 people we have over regularly, so we just don’t bring her out. They are DH’s friends, and they are all so loud, I can’t really blame her. I’d want to bark and chase them out of the house too ?


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

So, crate him then? That's definitely an option, but they will be highly offended (they are "dog people" who don't really know that much about dog behavior). Also, we go there, with the dogs for the holidays. We can bring the crate and keep him locked up, but it won't set well with the in-laws.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> I wouldn't. Maybe I've just gotten lazy, but for me, whats the benefit to having my dog out with strangers? All I care about is that they're good with my wife and kids at home. When we have anyone over, I don't want to spend the time teaching a territorial dog to accept someone they may not see again for a month.


ohhhh...I misunderstood the question. 

I think you need to teach the dog to chill in the crate. If someone is in my house and Seger is locked away, he goes nuts because someone is in our house. So I still think there is some counter conditioning but perhaps in a different way. It might go back to crate training and learning to relax with people are in the house. Maybe teach him that if the doorbell rings or knocks on the door, that's his signal to go to the crate where great things like raw meaty bones happen.

We've had a couple of weak nerved dogs in different ways. Crating them actually helps them relax because it takes the stress of feeling they need to react to something away. Crate = Quiet Safety.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Michelle Asker said:


> So, crate him then? That's definitely an option, but they will be highly offended (they are "dog people" who don't really know that much about dog behavior). Also, we go there, with the dogs for the holidays. We can bring the crate and keep him locked up, but it won't set well with the in-laws.


Your dog. Your rules. Explain it nicely and be firm. You are training. End of story. If some day he starts to behave appropriately then he can be out.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Michelle Asker said:


> So, crate him then? That's definitely an option, but they will be highly offended (they are "dog people" who don't really know that much about dog behavior). Also, we go there, with the dogs for the holidays. We can bring the crate and keep him locked up, but it won't set well with the in-laws.


I know. The worlds full of "All dogs love me" folks. Lol. If you don't want the conflict, maybe board him instead of taking him.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just in general Michelle, I tend to look to obedience to solve problems. If my dog is obedient, he's not misbehaving. I follow the temperament is hardwired school of thought, so I don't try to change it.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Such great advice by very knowledgeable people here on our board. I have learned a lot from hanging around here too.

I would just also add - do not let the breeder try and insinuate you did something wrong. We can always have "done better" in life with dogs, kids etc. Can't say for sure by reading your posts of course, but I don't see any evidence you did anything off the reservation enough socializing wise to have made an impact on what is sounding like genetic nerve issues. Though I am not super knowledgeable in pedigrees I know enough to say that one doesn't look like what I am use to seeing (we will leave it at that) and also that USUALLY the terminology "straight back" means run straight back to the car with your money. Even though ok, maybe a little more correction was in order beyond the word no, I am not pinning this on you  So don't let someone pass the buck by acting like you ruined the perfectly well bred dog. I am 99.9% sure that is not what is happening here.

You seem open minded, caring, and you are taking heart to good advice. That, being black and white, and consistent all under the guidance of a breed knowledgeable trainer will be your formula for making your dog the best he can be and being able to manage what can only be managed.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Don't wait UNTIL he is 'amped up'. A correction at that moment will aggravate him more. Try this after you studied and worked the prong collar without the presence of distractions. Once you and Titus are comfortable working with the prong collar, go out to places where you can expect LEASHED dogs, also called 'training opportunities'. Keep the distance far enough to make him succeed. As soon as you see that he sees the other dog (ears up, stiff body, closed mouth), you tell him "leave it" (make sure he knows the meaning of it) and turn away and work/play with him once he has calmed down. Be matter of fact, commands only, no sweet talk or grey noise in these situations, or telling people "he is friendly!"  . Ignore people because going into a discussion distracts you from the training.
Up the obedience and don't let him get away with anything. I don't believe so much on these secondary fear stages; too easy of an umbrella for adolescent antics. My breeder calls them 'knuckle heads' and rightfully so.
He is not ruined, just needs more training and leadership IMO.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Michelle Asker said:


> So, crate him then? That's definitely an option, but they will be highly offended (they are "dog people" who don't really know that much about dog behavior). Also, we go there, with the dogs for the holidays. We can bring the crate and keep him locked up, but it won't set well with the in-laws.


You will have to learn to be firm with people especially family. “Dog people” doesn’t mean to me what it does to everyone else. It doesn’t mean they understand dog behavior. They may love dogs, they may have some experience, but they don’t have experience with your dog or your situation.

It’s coincidental, I was just planning to start a thread on types of dog lovers.


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

Thank you, everyone for all the information and advice. I'll be doing a couple things differently, and see howit goes. He is pretty comfortable in the crate, unless I try to put him in when he's already amped up. I do 'pop' the flat collar when I say no, but I agree it's probably not enough. When he was younger and got to crazy with the kids I would grab his scruff and very firmly tell him no, and that usually stopped it. That doesn't work as well outside the house, and people don't like to see it. I guess it looks really mean, but I know I'm not hurting him a bit.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Has someone said a correction is mean? Or are you assuming they think that, and does that keep you from correcting your dog? A quick correction that works is less mean than allowing a dog to continue to misbehave.

You said in another post your dog had pano. Did that interfere with socialization? Mine was bedridden a lot due to serious pano, which interrupted all our early training and time with strange people and dogs. Given that, we have had excellent results with him but it made all training more challenging.


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

My in-laws think I'm really mean to the dogs, there have been serious disagreements because of that. So, yeah, I am more hesitant than I was. I shouldn't be. And yeah, the pano really interfered with early training and socialization. So did his extreme fear of riding in the car. He would throw up on even short rides. We can medicate him and go on rides now.


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

And, it's nice to hear that maybe I didn't ruin him.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

On top of some really good advice already here, I'd like to stress the importance of absolutely black and white communication with fearful dogs, no matter what type of training you are doing.

I really like low level e-collar stim paired with rewards when working with fearful dogs. NePoPo is the term coined by Bart Bellon. It provides absolutely clear communication and any correction is behavior driven and doesn't come from your hands.

Fearful dogs take comfort in knowing what's going on and what's going to happen next. Obedience training is your friend here. It gives the dog a clear mission. Once you get obedience to commands like heel, leave it, place, down stay, here, kennel... You can control behavior. Once the unwanted behaviors are under control, the dog can see that following you makes life easy and that you are the one to handle the decision making.

I'm not suggesting you try and tackle e-collar training yourself. I would find a trainer that doesn't look at you like a unicorn when you mention NePoPo and have them walk you through a few training sessions. It's not rocket surgery, but there are a few pitfalls you want to avoid. I typically put the collar on the client and use quarters for rewards. I run them through a few exercises to show them timing and then we switch places and I wear the collar. I also help them find a suitable working level for their dog.

Once you have the timing down and a decent working level for the dog that isn't too high or low, you stand a pretty good chance of making quick headway.

A word of warning. Don't just slap an e-collar on the dog and stim them for bad behavior. You will have a train wreck on your hands. It will increase confusion and reactivity. 

I'm also not saying that the same results can't be had with a training collar and a leash.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Michelle Asker said:


> And, it's nice to hear that maybe I didn't ruin him.


You did not ruin him. I hate saying anything derogatory about people's dogs. It seems rude.
Your dog is not well bred and your breeder is not knowledgeable. 
If it were me I would assume genetics and work from that angle. 
My dog is a genetic nightmare. We do ok. I love her and don't put expectations on her that are unrealistic.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Michelle Asker said:


> My in-laws think I'm really mean to the dogs, there have been serious disagreements because of that. So, yeah, I am more hesitant than I was. I shouldn't be. And yeah, the pano really interfered with early training and socialization. So did his extreme fear of riding in the car. He would throw up on even short rides. We can medicate him and go on rides now.


Ha, ha, my in-laws were the same. I got the silent looks of disapproval, was not allowed to walk any of their dogs. Funny thing was that I was the only relative with well-behaved dogs but their quarters never fell. Instead, they resorted to neuter and spaying (many of them were vets), which of course didn't change anything beside turning their dogs' coats to mush.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Michelle Asker said:


> Titus loves his ball, but not on a walk, or even if the neighbor dog is out. We will be having my in-laws toss it to him along with treats when they get here today. I think he'll like that. His prey drive is so high that he's on constant alert outside, I can get him to take treats most of the time. It's there any way to make him want the ball more, so that it's better than squirrels?


You can build value in how he views toys. Limit his access to the toys, don't let him possess them throughout the day, bring them out for games/fetch sessions and put em up when done. Keep sessions short, Don't try to exhaust him through fetch, stop before his interest begins to fade. During the tug/fetch sessions be animated and make it fun as you are trying to add value to yourself as well. As you/your dog progress and his drive builds, you can add structure, impulse control etc...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> I really like low level e-collar stim paired with rewards


This is what I did for my Jax who was fear aggressive towards dogs. Counter conditioned with LAT. It worked beautifully. E to shut down the reaction. LAT to counter condition and rewards.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Michelle Asker said:


> Titus loves his ball, but not on a walk, or even if the neighbor dog is out. We will be having my in-laws toss it to him along with treats when they get here today. I think he'll like that. His prey drive is so high that he's on constant alert outside, I can get him to take treats most of the time. It's there any way to make him want the ball more, so that it's better than squirrels?



This is how I read this post. 

"Titus loves his ball but can easily be distracted from interacting with me. When he goes outside, his suspicion and reactivity possibly based in fear cause him to be on alert constantly. I don't have good focus and obedience on him so he will leave me to chase squirrels."

I'm not mocking you. I'm putting your words into dog context. I think you are misreading your dog and your relationship with him. The answer is Yes, there is a way to want the ball more than squirrels and other dogs. But it's not about the ball. It's about the interaction with you. The ball is just an extension of you. Some dogs have higher ball drive. Some less. He might have less and you need to find whatever he loves that will make him WANT to interact with you.

If you learn how to create the relationship so that his focus is more on you, and playing your game, then the obedience will come easier and the control to overcome the reactivity will come. If he's pushing into you to play, then he's not barking at other dogs. If you say Leave It and he understand the command and understand that doing the right thing gets him good things, he's not barking at other dogs.

You have to balance that Want To and Have To.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > I really like low level e-collar stim paired with rewards
> ...


I use this method for reactivity, but I'm sure to collar condition first using recall and known commands. I want the dog to understand the game before I start piling on new rules.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

We are all responsible for our dogs actions but you are not responsible for the reasons why your dog is having these actions. Timing is the most important you want to correct before the dog is hyper focused on something. My dog does not like dogs. - leave it command was always practiced at home naturally and was a word he knew well. It works well before any kind of reaction occurs and if ignoring the leave it command and the dog is still in a focused stiff state a correction is used with a prong collar or ecollar that is shown how to use by a trainer. 

You mentioned your dog does not feel comfortable around all your relatives. Just put him away. If you have a busy home and he feels uncomfortable with anyone visiting the home then could be challenging make sure everyone in the house knows the rules.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

No, you did not ruin your dog.

There are dogs that have been raised in puppy mills and never been socialized or been exposed to anything but life in a cage. Some of them can come out of a situation like that and make very fine pets with very little socialization/training. Others that are genetically weak-nerved will never recover.

I got a puppy at 8 weeks. The breeder was a friend, and I watched the puppy being born, and rubbed her dry. During her first 8 weeks, she was exposed to other dogs and cats and a young teenager. She passed her puppy evaluation with flying colours.

As she matured, there was a big change, and by 8 or 9 months, she was frightened of everything: strange dogs, cats, strangers, children and men. She had never had any bad experiences with anyone or anything. It was just poor genetics coming to the surface. I did tons of socialization with her, obedience classes, etc. and she made very little progress.

At 2 years, she was still not able to pass a basic temperament test. I rehomed her to a single woman who had no kids and a very quiet home with one other dog. 

Sometimes you just get bad luck with the way the genetic dice roll. The mother and father of this pup both had good temperaments, and so did some of the other pups in the litter.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

David Winners said:


> I use this method for reactivity, but I'm sure to collar condition first using recall and known commands. I want the dog to understand the game before I start piling on new rules.



I taught everything before. LAT was taught in my livingroom. Leave It was taught by putting food on the ground and rewarding from my hand. The ecollar was taught by a trainer at a session using commands she knew. 

It's so important for the dog to understand all components you will be using before being put in the setting that will entice the reactivity. Also important to not just throw the dog into the setting. But to start from a distance and move forward as they understand what is required of them.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

Just want to share our story with you……..looooong story short, I had to retire my now 5.5-year-old Malinois from ringsport due to severe epilepsy in early 2018. Hubby and I got a Malinois puppy from a very reputable breeder (mentioned here multiple times) in December 2018 for IGP. I wanted a puppy that was similar to my other Malinois, happy, bubbly, sociable, and loves to train. Imagine our surprise when we got a puppy that was scared of people, reserved, and didn’t want to interact with us. 

We got our puppy at 7.5 weeks of age. She is now 11 months old. Looking back, it seemed like in her mind, if she hadn’t met you by the time she was 8 weeks old, then she didn’t want to have anything to do with you. 

We took her to our IGP club when she was 9 weeks old, just for socialization. She did not want to have anything to do with anyone, didn’t want to be petted by anyone, barked at anyone who looked at her/tried to give her treats/approached her. When we took her in for puppy vaccinations at our vet, she snarled/snapped at our vet for trying to touch her (our vet has a “fear-free” practice so the staff was very patient and gentle with her). Our vet literally wrote “could not examine” on her records during all 3 of her puppy vaccination visits. 

We communicated with her breeder multiple times (he lives several states away). He gave us suggestions along the way, they helped to a certain extent but she was still very fearful of people. When she was 4.5 months old, we met her breeder at a trial (he was competing). He spent 30-45 minutes evaluating her. We didn’t want to take up too much of his time during trial time. We told him we would contact him in a week, and he could let us know what he thought then.

By that time, everyone around me was telling me to return her. I messaged breeder and he did not give me a hard time. Told me he could give me a refund or an exchange. We even set up a date to drive her back. At the end though, I couldn’t bring myself to do it. So she stayed. 

We kept in touch with breeder and he was very adamant about me building a play-based (not treat-based) working relationship with her. I took his advice and watched Ivan Balabanov’s possession game video. When she finished teething at 5.5 months of age, I started doing possession games with her. It made a huge difference and really brought her out of her shells! She used to be a very “serious” puppy, rarely smiled. Within a few weeks of playing possession games, her personality changed. She was happier, became more forward/playful with us, and her confidence grew. She started to regularly initiate play with me, something she had never done before. 

Other than the possession game, here are a couple of other things I did…..

To get her used to being around people, I take her to outdoor malls. I play tug with her in the parking lot until she is relaxed, then walk her through the shopping center while she is still panting happily. She gets to carry her toy in her mouth, if we have to walk by people at close proximity, I tug on the toy to re-direct/reward her. I walk her on a prong and she understands leash pressure. I did that several times a week (until it got too hot, we will re-start these walks now that it is starting to cool off) and they really helped to teach her to ignore people. 

We muzzle-trained her. It came in handy when we had to take her to a vet ophthalmologist (she had a corneal foreign body) several weeks ago. We muzzled her during examination and she actually did very well, took treats through her muzzle and showed minimal stress. 

She is still work-in-progress, but has certainly come a long way. Here is a video of her from a few days ago, when she accompanied us to our older dog’s neurology appointment. It was at a large teaching hospital. The first time she was there back in April, her ears were pinned/tail was tucked/refused treats/toys and low growled at anyone who looked at her. Fast forward 6 months, she is now learning to relax in public. 

Sorry for the long post but I just want to tell you not to give up. I know it is hard but I hope you find a good trainer that can help you bring out the best in him!


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

I really appreciate the last couple posts especially. I am realizing that we might not have chosen the best breeder, BUT, we really might have gotten an extra nervy pup out of a decent litter. We love him, he's a goofy sweety with us, and great with the kids. I must say, I'm not sure what exactly is meant by possession games, but I'll look it up. I need to put away his ball and kong, and tug toy. I have 2 teens who like to pick up a toy and play with him, so I'll have to talk with them about that. Maybe a squeaky toy as a special reward toy might be good, he's crazy about them, but we never buy them.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Michelle Asker said:


> So, crate him then? That's definitely an option, but they will be highly offended (they are "dog people" who don't really know that much about dog behavior). Also, we go there, with the dogs for the holidays. We can bring the crate and keep him locked up, but it won't set well with the in-laws.


I have a sister in law who was horrified by me putting Shadow in her crate. I don't care. My dog, my rules. 
You need to stand your ground and advocate for your dog. 
I had a brother in law who flat out told me no crate in his house. I simply agreed and stated that I would stay elsewhere. He gave in.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Do people honestly think that before domestication came around, wild dogs just keep moving nonstop from one spot to another? Never needing downtime, never needing to sleep or whelp pups? Where did they sleep? In a den. A secure area with one way in, one way out. That is what we recreate with a crate. It’s not torture or punishment, and I’ve never had a dog that didn’t willing go in and nap on their own during the day. 

Tell your in-laws that the dog must be crated, or you will be staying elsewhere.


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

:surprise:“ The choke collar is what I would use for the correction. He reacts, you lift up on the collar”

Please do not do this to your dog.

Your dog is still very much a puppy. He has entered his adolescence months, but he’s a puppy. Cruelty should *never* pass for training, particularly with a puppy. You may (likely will) shut your pup down. That’s not training. You won’t get the stable reliable adult dog you want. 

We can train dogs through fear without corrections. I’ve done it. Many of have. 

I messaged you info on trainers you can consider using, people I have used and respect as trainers. 

Importantly, these are folks I do not hesitate to drop off my puppy at their homes for a week and am certain that I would get a bounding confident happy dog when I pick him up.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

4K9Mom said:


> :surprise:“ The choke collar is what I would use for the correction. He reacts, you lift up on the collar”
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So using a choke collar is cruelty? Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Any equipment being used incorrectly can become cruelty. Even a basic flat collar, your hands, and verbally overcorrecting while angry.


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## Michelle Asker (Nov 4, 2014)

I do appreciate all of the training advice I've gotten. My original question of wether this is a socialization fear issue, or a problem with weak nerves still keeps me up at night. It seems to be mostly weak nerves, but I get told it's a training issue and that makes me wonder. I have another question now. I might think about returning him. The breeder does not offer any temperment guarentee (I thought they did, but I was wrong) but they will take dogs back, no refund. How would any of you bring that up to a breeder? Just looking for a good way to say it. I have brought up concerns about his fear several times, but she always said it's just me, not him. This is very hard for me to write, we love him very much, we just don't know if we can live with a dog like this. BTW, new behavior, he is resisting corrections, is that common adolescent behavior?


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

Michelle Asker said:


> I do appreciate all of the training advice I've gotten. My original question of wether this is a socialization fear issue, or a problem with weak nerves still keeps me up at night. It seems to be mostly weak nerves, but I get told it's a training issue and that makes me wonder. I have another question now. I might think about returning him. The breeder does not offer any temperment guarentee (I thought they did, but I was wrong) but they will take dogs back, no refund. How would any of you bring that up to a breeder? Just looking for a good way to say it. I have brought up concerns about his fear several times, but she always said it's just me, not him. This is very hard for me to write, we love him very much, we just don't know if we can live with a dog like this. BTW, new behavior, he is resisting corrections, is that common adolescent behavior?


It is a nerve issue. My older Malinois is very socially-stable, friendly to people, kids, dogs, even cats. We've had kids rushed up to us at parks, didn't bother her at all. Granted, I've done a lot of conditioning on her since she was a puppy, but at the end, she just has good nerves. 

If you are seriously thinking about returning him, I would just be honest with the breeder and tell him/her that his temperament is not suitable for your family's lifestyle/needs. I would opt for returning him sooner than later, there is a higher chance he can find a good home when he is still a puppy. 

What kind of corrections are you giving him? What are the corrections for?


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