# Vet concerned about puppy aggression - help!



## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

Hey.. I am new to this forum. Have a 7 year old gsd female with a very even, solid, confident temperament. We just got a male puppy from a reputable breeder (who is frequently recommended/mentioned on this site) about 10 days ago. He was 9 1/2 weeks when we got him. My vet is very active in the gsd working world and has always owned multiple shepherds. I took him to be checked out a day after we got home... The vet gave him a basic once over - ears, paws, mouth... And he became aggressive at some point when he was being held by the vet tech and examined by the vet (growly and trying to bite -- not normal curiosity, squirmy, mouthy). She told me at that point she was concerned that a puppy that age should NOT show that kind of behavior - squirm to get away, crying, etc. are expected, but not aggression... that should not be in his "playbook" that young. She said that she would not keep him, but that if I did, he would need LOTs of work to counter that basic fear/aggression response.

Since that time, I have taken him up to the vet for socialization (3 hour periods) where he can be handled, given treats, nail trimmed, etc... and he has done much better.. has been totally fine each time with various ppl looking at his teeth, messing with paws and ears, etc. I have also taken him to a highly recommended trainer to get her thoughts (clicker based and dog behaviorist)... She said that aggression was unusual, but she also said she didn't see anything in his behavior (2 sessions) that was worrisome. He seemed not to be overly fearful, that he is willing and motivated learner.

He has been great around the house. He is smart and eager to learn. He has been great when Ive taken him out as well. He obeys, is happy, plays well with my other dog (although can annoy her), is easily redirected, and can play appropriately at my feet without getting into tons of mischief at this point.

However, yesterday my husband was home (I was not there)... and puppy started to go potty on the carpet. My husband spoke loudly and ran over to him (mistake) and tried to pick him up.. at which point puppy reacted similarly to the vet (probably not quite as extreme) but took a fear/aggressive posture and tried to bite/tell him off. 

I was 100% leaning toward keeping him because he has so many excellent qualities and he is such a wonderful dog so far... until last night. Now I am wondering if 2 of those episodes in 10 days should be a red flag. This is not the same thing as puppy mouthiness and playing.. it seems defensive and seems as if training can help, but if push comes to shove when he's older, that may be his go-to under stress. Am conflicted bc I love him and bc this breeder has a great reputation. 

I would love some of your thoughts/opinions!


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Have you spoken to his breeder about your concerns? That would be my first step.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Sounds to me like the puppy was freaked out/scared by the situation both times. Still brand new to you and a baby.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I've seen this in a young pup, who has matured into one of the top dogs of that litter. It started at six weeks. It was NOT fearful. He was being a big brat, but it was not fear at all. It happened first when we went to pick him up and bring him inside and he didn't want to. Yell, scream, squirm, bite, make more noise and get very angry. The vet was the same way as yours, told me he was aggressive a baby pup. He's not, he's a social, pushy, confident dog. He is very balanced. But he does need a strong, confident handler and good mental and physical outlets. There are some videos of this behavior in other pups online. One is malinois, one GSD. I can try to find them so you can see. These are nice pups! Just pushy brats. 

The dog is now the most social of that litter. He is an intact male, and a dog-park dog, human social, friendly, confident, go anywhere kind of dog. Nice drives, beautiful temperament. He does need a firm and strong handler, but he is far from unstable or aggressive. 

Find someone who knows more about the lines of dog you have and actually has seen some variety. From personal experience, this type of aggression in a pup so young can actually mean you have a very nice, solid pup, but YOU need to be sure to up your game as a handler. Make sure you find a good trainer to help you, and by good I mean someone who knows how to train and does not use cookies alone. Not sure where you are located, but the board often has some good trainer recommendations.

You need to let him know he can't get away with acting like a brat, because he'll get bigger and still be a brat and harder to handle. I don't like to give detailed advice on this forum around these type of issues, but you can always PM me. 

From the sound of it, you have a nice dog.

Hope this helps.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Go get the dog evaluated by a real dog trainer. Sounds like the dog has an edge. Nothing to be concerned about unless it realizes it can use aggression to get its way. If that happens then you're in trouble.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would probably listen to your vet. For a 10-12 week old puppy to use aggression toward a family member, and yes, 10 days in, your husband is a family member, that's serious. It may be too serious of a dog for you and your husband. 

For another owner, this pup may be exactly what he wants. I don't know, haven't seen the puppy. But it seems way too young to give a fear/aggressive response that is noted by the vet as unusual in the breed, and then again to a family member 9-10 days into ownership. 

There is probably another puppy, that has a different temperament that would suit your situation better. It sounds like this one will be challenging.

On the other hand, you do grow as owners when you work with a challenging dog. 

Call the breeder and explain what is going on.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

thank you all for your quick responses!... The diversity of opinions illustrates my dilemma! I have talked to the breeder and she is in the "bratty behavior" camp but says I need to be comfortable with him so is willing to accommodate whatever I decide. She said she saw nothing in him that concerned her re aggression. But the vet says something completely different. The trainer is kind of in the middle. 

BTW, I am in NC. I am using a trainer that was recommended by my vet. She uses a psychology premise and does a lot of reward/clicker driven training.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I think you and your husband need to sit down and seriously discuss if this is the right puppy for you. If you decide it's not, that's not a failure, it's being realistic to what you are able and willing to commit to at this point in time. If you decide the puppy is right for you then you know you may have a challenge ahead that you're both committed to and are ready and willing to meet.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

4girls said:


> thank you all for your quick responses!... The diversity of opinions illustrates my dilemma! I have talked to the breeder and she is in the "bratty behavior" camp but says I need to be comfortable with him so is willing to accommodate whatever I decide. She said she saw nothing in him that concerned her re aggression. But the vet says something completely different. The trainer is kind of in the middle.
> 
> BTW, I am in NC. I am using a trainer that was recommended by my vet. She uses a psychology premise and does a lot of reward/clicker driven training.


Where in NC are you? I'm a trainer in Durham I can have a look at the guy.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

I am in Davidson (suburb north of Charlotte)... so not real close to Durham but not crazy far either....

What is tough is he is so good virtually all the time.. prompt obedience, happy and calm. If I felt he was aggressive, I wouldn't hesitate, but something in my heart (very possibly misguided) isn't positive....


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

4girls said:


> Hey.. I am new to this forum. Have a 7 year old gsd female with a very even, solid, confident temperament. We just got a male puppy from a reputable breeder (who is frequently recommended/mentioned on this site) about 10 days ago. He was 9 1/2 weeks when we got him. My vet is very active in the gsd working world and has always owned multiple shepherds. I took him to be checked out a day after we got home... The vet gave him a basic once over - ears, paws, mouth... And he became aggressive at some point when he was being held by the vet tech and examined by the vet (growly and trying to bite -- not normal curiosity, squirmy, mouthy). She told me at that point she was concerned that a puppy that age should NOT show that kind of behavior - squirm to get away, crying, etc. are expected, but not aggression... that should not be in his "playbook" that young. She said that she would not keep him, but that if I did, he would need LOTs of work to counter that basic fear/aggression response.
> 
> Since that time, I have taken him up to the vet for socialization (3 hour periods) where he can be handled, given treats, nail trimmed, etc... and he has done much better.. has been totally fine each time with various ppl looking at his teeth, messing with paws and ears, etc. I have also taken him to a highly recommended trainer to get her thoughts (clicker based and dog behaviorist)... She said that aggression was unusual, but she also said she didn't see anything in his behavior (2 sessions) that was worrisome. He seemed not to be overly fearful, that he is willing and motivated learner.
> 
> ...


What is his breeding?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I think taking bailiff up on his offer is your best bet.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

4girls said:


> thank you all for your quick responses!... The diversity of opinions illustrates my dilemma! I have talked to the breeder and she is in the "bratty behavior" camp but says I need to be comfortable with him so is willing to accommodate whatever I decide. She said she saw nothing in him that concerned her re aggression. But the vet says something completely different. The trainer is kind of in the middle.
> 
> BTW, I am in NC. I am using a trainer that was recommended by my vet. She uses a psychology premise and does a lot of reward/clicker driven training.


I am all for reward/clicker training AND I found my GSD needed a firm hand and leadership. My guy needed CORRECTION too--especially as he aged. A full sister to my GSD's maternal grandfather was brought into a well-known (on the forum) breeder's line to bring in civil. My guy became a fabulous dog after he found out the party was over and he HAD to obey. You give him an inch, he goes next for the mile.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

He is from a West German show line. His dad is IPO3, Kor, HDa1, Eda1, V (USA 2016). His mom is IPO1 and those other things as well. The male is one of the breeder's primary studs. If I google the owner/kennel, the her dogs appear in a variety of places competitive/show venues.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

4girls said:


> I am in Davidson (suburb north of Charlotte)... so not real close to Durham but not crazy far either....
> 
> What is tough is he is so good virtually all the time.. prompt obedience, happy and calm. If I felt he was aggressive, I wouldn't hesitate, but something in my heart (very possibly misguided) isn't positive....


Assuming his nerves are good he has an edge and being approached quick and manhandled or when he perceived pressure is a trigger for him to lash out. 

In a puppy it is no big deal. The problem is if it isn't dealt with now it will be a behavior he can carry over into adulthood and the stakes will be considerably higher then. Putting inhibition on a puppy for that kind of behavior now is way easier than doing it later on in life.

The behavior can become a go to coping mechanism in other areas in life. If he sees pictures where snapping and growling at you can get you to back off or hesitate for even a little while it is often reinforcement enough to see an acceleration of the behavior. It is best dealt with now.

Susan Garrett often talked about behaviors she called sun showers or icebergs. A sunshower behavior is one that seems like trouble but just kinda goes away on its own pretty quickly if not addressed. The behavior you're seeing is an iceberg though. Doesn't seem like much on the surface now but you have a huge problem dwelling below the surface. A dog of his age displaying don't f with me tendencies is trouble waiting to happen.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

4girls said:


> I am in Davidson (suburb north of Charlotte)... so not real close to Durham but not crazy far either....
> 
> What is tough is he is so good virtually all the time.. prompt obedience, happy and calm. If I felt he was aggressive, I wouldn't hesitate, but something in my heart (very possibly misguided) isn't positive....



Hi 4girls,

I would take Baillif's offer as soon as possible. 

*IF* there is a possibility that you are going to return the pup, you will want to know sooner than later since bonds are being formed now.

About a 2 hour drive would be well worth it for your family!


Best of luck to you. This must be heart wrenching! 
Moms


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

My dutchie was a nightmarish puppy in terms of bratty, confident, bite, growl. But not all the time. My vet at the time did not like him... more he had preconceived notions of the dutch and read me the riot act. I went through three trainers before the fourth who was awesome and who understood the mal/dutch/high drive confident shepherd. Now I have an awesome awesome dog. My trainer could read this type of dog so so well. And in two seconds got me on the right track. Now I had to work hard but it was so worth it. I also found a vet that was more comfortable with the presence of a dutch.

I would absolutely pack up the car and get myself to Bailiff several times over the next year. You need a no nonsense trainer that can actually read a dog and has lots of experience and in my opinion that is about 5-10% of the trainers out there. I would not think twice about this. 

This type of dog, if it is what I suspect, can be super fun to work but challenging to your handler skills. You have to be willing to go there of course. If you want a golden retriever than this might not be the dog for you.

Good luck.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

Bailiff - can you send me a PM and maybe I can respond to you that way? Since I am new to the site it is not letting me send/initiate PMs until I've done a certain number of posts, it seems...

thanks!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Done. Let me know if you can't respond


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

Ugh! I just typed out a whole PM response, and when I hit "send" it told me I'm not allowed to do it yet due to number of posts. I will contact you via email.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Baillif said:


> Done. Let me know if you can't respond


Bailiff, Thank You for helping 4girls!

This is very kind of you! :thumbup:

Moms


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

4girls said:


> Ugh! I just typed out a whole PM response, and when I hit "send" it told me I'm not allowed to do it yet due to number of posts. I will contact you via email.


Hi 4girls!

You need 15 posts to pm someone.

You only need a few more, so post on some other threads like Introduction and Welcome Mat or post some separate pics of the pup on this thread with a few comments!

Moms


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DutchKarin said:


> My dutchie was a nightmarish puppy in terms of bratty, confident, bite, growl. But not all the time. My vet at the time did not like him... more he had preconceived notions of the dutch and read me the riot act. I went through three trainers before the fourth who was awesome and who understood the mal/dutch/high drive confident shepherd. Now I have an awesome awesome dog. My trainer could read this type of dog so so well. And in two seconds got me on the right track. Now I had to work hard but it was so worth it. I also found a vet that was more comfortable with the presence of a dutch.
> 
> *I would absolutely pack up the car and get myself to Bailiff several times over the next year. You need a no nonsense trainer that can actually read a dog and has lots of experience and in my opinion that is about 5-10% of the trainers out there. I would not think twice about this. *
> 
> ...


And this is why I think you should think long and hard whether or not this is the dog for you. 5-10% of the trainers might be able to help you with this dog. With most dogs, maybe 70-80% of trainers can get you moving on a path with some forward progress. There are some rummies out there, sure. But most trainers will be unable to help you with this puppy, especially if you wait. We know that he does not like liberties taken by the vet, and some people do muzzle their dogs at the vet -- stressful environment for intelligent dogs, they feed off of our apprehension, etc. And maybe we can let him know now that you and your husbands are supreme beings, and he must never object with you. Will this dog be a dog that, if a 5 year old runs up and hugs, he is going to change the style of the kid's face? Maybe, maybe not. The dogs are smart, and they may be willing to come up the leash at an unjustified correction, while still accepting that a young child is not a threat and put up with what a lot of dogs see as very rude behavior. It is a risk that you have to be willing to accept. It is why a dog like this really should be in the hands of an experienced owner. 

An owner experienced with this kind of dog projects himself differently, and the dog is much less of a threat in all situations because he completely accepts his human's leadership. An owner on their first rodeo is going to make a lot of mistakes and the dog might not have as much confidence in that owner's leadership. Of course, you do not get to be a veteran without that first tour of duty. Even so, the vast majority of GSDs out there do not have this temperament. Not saying it is faulty. I am saying that you can become an excellent owner and trainer without owning a dog with this level of challenge.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I would wait and see what Bailiff says when he sees the pup. He'll be able to make a much better assessment than anyone on the internet, and also can advise the owners on handling and discuss whether this pup is a good fit.

This behavior is just one aspect of the dog, and how the dog matures depends on nerve strength, how the dog is trained/handled, and some other genetic factors of temperament. 

If the dog is very social and outgoing, like the pup I dealt with, he's probably not going to be a liability if properly handled as a pup and then an adult. I am in close contact with the dog's owner, and have checked in and actually seen the dog on occasion. Is this a dog for everyone? NO! But neither are many working-line dogs. They are a not for the faint hearted. 

Just for the readers out there, veterinarians are medical specialists. Just because they are not familiar with the very small niche of working-quality GSDs/malinois does not mean they are bad at their job. Knowing about these real niche lines are not important to their job. My vet trusts me to keep her safe, because I have proven I know my dogs and won't open her up to injury. It helps that most of my dogs love people. As I often say "know your dog". It's not fair to expect a veterinarian to know how to handle (or enjoy handling) an over the top working line pup. That is your job, if you choose to accept it...


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

This is super interesting! @4girls, Can you let us know your progress? I for one, would love to know how this turns out!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Keep your breeder in the loop. Most breeders will refund the purchase price up to 2 weeks, be sure that if you are going to have the dog evaluated that your breeder is ok with extending this to allow for the evaluation. 

Really the time to make decisions like this is sooner, rather than later. Every day that goes by we become more attached and it gets harder to make that decision using logic and knowledge over emotion.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I agree, Selzer. And it is much harder to return a 12-month old who has gotten practice with bad behaviors, than an under-12 week old. 

Best to decide quickly whether this pup is something you want to take on. Even if he is a good pup overall, and he sounds like it, he is certainly going to require more work and skill than most. You need to be brutally honest with yourself, as a handler, as to whether you are up for the challenge. I'd try to get out for an evaluation this weekend. 

Sorry, OP, I don't know what you have in the works.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

selzer said:


> And this is why I think you should think long and hard whether or not this is the dog for you. 5-10% of the trainers might be able to help you with this dog. With most dogs, maybe 70-80% of trainers can get you moving on a path with some forward progress. There are some rummies out there, sure. But most trainers will be unable to help you with this puppy, especially if you wait. We know that he does not like liberties taken by the vet, and some people do muzzle their dogs at the vet -- stressful environment for intelligent dogs, they feed off of our apprehension, etc. And maybe we can let him know now that you and your husbands are supreme beings, and he must never object with you. Will this dog be a dog that, if a 5 year old runs up and hugs, he is going to change the style of the kid's face? Maybe, maybe not. The dogs are smart, and they may be willing to come up the leash at an unjustified correction, while still accepting that a young child is not a threat and put up with what a lot of dogs see as very rude behavior. It is a risk that you have to be willing to accept. It is why a dog like this really should be in the hands of an experienced owner.
> 
> An owner experienced with this kind of dog projects himself differently, and the dog is much less of a threat in all situations because he completely accepts his human's leadership. An owner on their first rodeo is going to make a lot of mistakes and the dog might not have as much confidence in that owner's leadership. Of course, you do not get to be a veteran without that first tour of duty. Even so, the vast majority of GSDs out there do not have this temperament. Not saying it is faulty. I am saying that you can become an excellent owner and trainer without owning a dog with this level of challenge.


A couple of things. I do have another german shepherd... She is 7. But she has always been a good girl (except for a few years while she was young.. just a pizz!) How do I account for the fact that everyone else at the vet's office has said he is a wonderful dog, and he has given them no trouble, and they said they would not give him back. (I took him up there 3 times for 3 hours/ea where they messed with his ears, mouth, paws, and clipped his nails, and played with him successfully.) And, the trainer (recommended by the vet) has also said he seems eager and motivated to learn and she sees no usual fear, aggression, hesitancy, or anything that gives her cause for concern. 

I have also not seen anything with any other dog with whom he's interacted, or any person/stranger that I've had him exposed to. (he is not super interested in people he doesn't know. Will sniff them and is fine to be petted but then will get distracted by other scents, etc.) 

So, it is not super obvious that he is trouble. At this point, he is very obedient, responsive, and willing to please. Granted, he's a baby and he should be.

In your opinion, what other things should I be seeing if he were to have aggression issues? thanks!!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

In wouldn't be too concerned with opinions of anyone that hasn't seen the dog in person. Until you put the dog in front of you push its buttons a bit and put it in situations where the behavior might present itself and get a good general feel for the dog through interaction most everything is conjecture and firing from the hip opinion.

Maybe there's an issue maybe the problem is more on your end of the leash than the dog but that cant be evaluated over the Internet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so , your dog was at the vet's getting a full body physical and everything went swimmingly . 
UNTIL
quote " And he became aggressive at some point when he was being held by the vet tech "

so he was constricted, confined , too close to the stranger -- 

Later in the week when , quote
"My husband spoke loudly and ran over to him (mistake) and tried to pick him up.. at which point puppy reacted similarly to the vet (probably not quite as extreme) but took a fear/aggressive posture and tried to bite/tell him off. "

question , who chose this pup for you? The breeder or yourself?

Not all pups like to be held, squeezed , cuddled . BUT they need to tolerate it from the owner - for the sheer fact that there may be a day where the dog needs to be lifted when ill or injured or unable to scale some height . 

Take advantage of Bailiff's offer. 

Pup needs to have his wagon fixed . The last thing you want to do is to indulge him.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I was showing muskeg a video that's been running around YouTube of a litter of Belgian Malinois bred by a pretty well known (in working circles) breeder in Europe that had a 5.5 week old Malinois puppy that would go raving mad when he tried to restrain the dog and he was thrilled with it. So maybe that's what you're seeing who knows without seeing it in person though.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

I sent you an email earlier today to the email listed on your training website. I would def be interested in coming to see you in the next few days! thank you SO much for your help... and everyone's!!!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The email on the website went to Juan I gave him the heads up to expect it so hopefully he gets back to you pretty quick and you guys can schedule something.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

carmspack said:


> so , your dog was at the vet's getting a full body physical and everything went swimmingly .
> UNTIL
> quote " And he became aggressive at some point when he was being held by the vet tech "
> 
> ...


Yes, I don't want to indulge him. The breeder chose the pup (and I don't think she put a ton of thought into it since I have a gsd now...) The breeder is someone who is mentioned here as being very good. And, fwiw, he does tolerate being held, turned over, "bothered", and roughed up and fiddled with and has never given me or my husband grief about that, except the one time that he was literally going #2 and was "mid potty" when my husband tried to pick him up. 

I am trying to coordinate to get to Bailiff in the next few days, as I am running out of time to make a decision. Want it to be the right one. 

I am not trying to defend the dog.. just want to make sure I make the right decision!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

4girls said:


> A couple of things. I do have another german shepherd... She is 7. But she has always been a good girl (except for a few years while she was young.. just a pizz!) How do I account for the fact that everyone else at the vet's office has said he is a wonderful dog, and he has given them no trouble, and they said they would not give him back. (I took him up there 3 times for 3 hours/ea where they messed with his ears, mouth, paws, and clipped his nails, and played with him successfully.) And, the trainer (recommended by the vet) has also said he seems eager and motivated to learn and she sees no usual fear, aggression, hesitancy, or anything that gives her cause for concern.
> 
> I have also not seen anything with any other dog with whom he's interacted, or any person/stranger that I've had him exposed to. (he is not super interested in people he doesn't know. Will sniff them and is fine to be petted but then will get distracted by other scents, etc.)
> 
> ...


At nine-ten weeks old, you should have a puppy that hasn't even begun being suspicious of strangers, or protecting himself. 

Puppies have a puppy license that drops off somewhere in the area of 4-5 months. Dogs generally let the puppy do ANYTHING, pull ears, tails, come up and take a pig's ear out of the other dog's mouth. The momma dog will get up and get away if possible if her underside is being hurt by them, and she may get a little snarly if she cannot get away from them, but it is generally all noise. Then somewhere between 16 and 24 weeks, dogs stop giving puppies a free pass. 

Something else happens at this time. Puppies can recognize their own people early on. But now they start recognizing strangers as strangers and will sometimes avoid or act suspicious toward them. They will not be as willing as a young pup is to run up and get pets all over by them. 

And this is the reason that people bring home dogs between 7 and 10 weeks of age, and then try to get them out as much as possible. They want a lot of positive experiences for the dog to draw on right now, because that puppy IS going to go through some stages where he will be far less likely to be happy go lucky with everyone.

What your puppy ought to be right now, is happy go lucky with the people at the vet clinic, and with trainers, and with family members, and with people on the street and with dogs. He shouldn't be thinking about protecting himself, or asserting himself for an unjust correction. Startled -- yes a puppy can be startled, but that shouldn't cause such a young one to lash out with teeth, especially not to a family member. He's a baby. If he is startled, he should scrinch down maybe on the floor and watch, or tuck his tail, or back up, or turn over and offer his belly, even pee a little. Startled at 10 weeks old should not look anything like protecting himself from a human. 

Can a 10 week old puppy play rough, growl, bite, grab, chase, and bark like they mean it? Sure they can. You can ramp them up. GSD puppies play in their litter, and sometimes you look at the little hoodlums (piranha) and wonder where that came from. But this doesn't happen with the vet. And it doesn't sound like what was happening with your husband. 

I have limited experience with working lines. If I saw the behavior you described, I would be very concerned.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Baillif said:


> I was showing muskeg a video that's been running around YouTube of a litter of Belgian Malinois bred by a pretty well known (in working circles) breeder in Europe that had a 5.5 week old Malinois puppy that would go raving mad when he tried to restrain the dog and he was thrilled with it. So maybe that's what you're seeing who knows without seeing it in person though.


yeah , a little snot of a dog that has priority rights , just has to learn that you out-rank him.

in the litter this is the pup that has the select , bestest spot for sleeping, will steal and stockpile the "toys" or food (best seen in raw fed dogs who can grab that chicken neck , or that chunk of muscle meat). 

I don't put much faith vets or vet tech's evaluation on temperament . 
There is even a behaviourist , university level , who had a radio program , that had unbelievably ridiculous advice - example thunder storm , dog afraid ? Join him in the closet ----what? 

I find that a lot of trainers do things without feel or , yes , not reading , not being able to read the dog . They go through the motions. That is frustrating. 

Whatever this behaviour needs to be altered . 

GOOD socialization can take mere minutes - and be effective and lasting.

3 hours of ???? socialization at the vets might be useless -- and wrong .


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

You're user name is 4girls, so do you have children at home, or maybe will have grandchildren coming over? This needs to go into the equation as well. You said your vet is into working dogs and has GSDs? So she/he is more than just a regular vet with no real experience with working line GSDs. I'm glad you're going to see Baillif and getting a second opinion.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

Baillif said:


> The email on the website went to Juan I gave him the heads up to expect it so hopefully he gets back to you pretty quick and you guys can schedule something.


Ok! I figured you were Juan!... :smile2:


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good luck 4Girls! Keep us posted if you can. I'm curious to hear what Juan and/or Bailiff think about your pup after an evaluation.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Is he a working line pup? I think you are overthinking things, sounds like normal weird behavior (if that makes sense). The pup is just a baby and is learning every minute how to behave and react and act. At this age I (and many experts) say that there is no such thing as aggression. My pup squirmed and snapped at the vet tech for poking at him and checking his ears too, doesn't mean he had bad temperament, in fact he was a sweetheart. If I had a puppy who was a bit edgy, I would not even do any obedience whatsoever for now. All I would do for the next 2 weeks is bond, bond, bond with the pup. I would hand feed him, speak in soft tones, gently pet him and let him sleep in my room. The pup has to learn to trust you. Don't yell at him for peeing on the carpet, don't charge at him don't be mean to him. Just take it easy for now. I wouldn't at all be concerned from the things you're describing. Whenever people think they have a demon puppy I always refer to this video which shows a normal high drive puppy who may seem like he's bat s*** crazy but in reality he's completely normal.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I really don't like that video.

Bonding is very important, but a pup like this also needs limitations. If all you do is sweet talk and play gently with a pup like this, you will not have a good relationship down the road. You can not sweet talk it out of them.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

Here are my guys...


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

And here is a closer one of the little guy...


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> I really don't like that video.
> 
> Bonding is very important, but a pup like this also needs limitations. If all you do is sweet talk and play gently with a pup like this, you will not have a good relationship down the road. You can not sweet talk it out of them.


Yea you totally missed my point.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

4girls said:


> And here is a closer one of the little guy...


I highly doubt he's aggressive. Sorry I just don't really believe in a pup that young being aggressive unless he was abused from an early age.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The little guy looks like a German Show Line pup. Are we sure he is working line?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^ OP said he's west german showlines.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, thanks Fodder. That's what it looks like. I have West German Show Lines, and I would find the behavior very strange at this age.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I saw the puppy. He's confident with a little edge but nothing to send him back to the breeder about. We can put this thread to bed. Moral of the story is don't take behavior advice from vets or Internet forums that haven't even seen the dog.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> I saw the puppy. He's confident with a little edge but nothing to send him back to the breeder about. We can put this thread to bed. Moral of the story is don't take behavior advice from vets or Internet forums that haven't even seen the dog.


I'm curious what you recommend.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Her business if she wants to talk about what we talked about, but I didn't recommend anything I wouldn't recommend for anybody no matter what kind of dog they have or what its personality is like. Good consistent training and a lifestyle that is conducive to raising a balanced well behaved dog.


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## 4girls (Sep 22, 2016)

hey all... I had to let you guys know, if you don't already, Bailif is AWESOME! I met with him and his wonderful dog(s) yesterday for several hours. His dogs are phenomenal and are a true testament to the effectiveness of his training/methods (positive, negative, clear, consistent, works effectively with the dog brain/motivation)... The whole place was so impressive! We are so fortunate to have him and his wisdom/insight on this forum!

He did say that little guy has an edge, but that he is confident (not fear based issues) and has good nerves, did not startle, and is a good dog... and that edge can be dealt with effectively in training... He said he's seen plenty of bad shepherds and pup is not one. So he will be going to a 2 week camp with Bailif in a couple of weeks. I am feeling much more confident after meeting with bailif that we will get a well balanced, happy dog as a result of his training. 

I am so eager to get started on the right foot and so thankful I found this forum!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Fantastic!Looking forward to updates as you go along


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yup, Bailiff knows his stuff. Glad you are going to work with him.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Her business if she wants to talk about what we talked about, but I didn't recommend anything I wouldn't recommend for anybody no matter what kind of dog they have or what its personality is like. Good consistent training and a lifestyle that is conducive to raising a balanced well behaved dog.


That's what I was asking. Just curious as I go deeper down the rabbit hole in assertive dogs.


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