# Staying in drive



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

A little help needed please. Sorry for the length.

I have had Kahn since just before he was 4 months old. We attended a couple training sessions with the club I belong to, but during the last month or so I have not been able to attend very much do to family problems and my other pups medical issues.

Yesterday I attended a group training day and Kahn was excited to be out training again. He tracked fantastic! Due to the heat we decided to skip doing the OB and just go through some bitework. Well the trainer starts teasing him with the tug on a rope and he was pulling like crazy to get it. He brought the tug up and started to swing it and gave him a chance to grab and he missed the first shot, but didnt let the second even a chance to go by. Kahn held and I brought him around and the trainer then tugged and Kahn pulled like crazy to get it away. I brought him around again and Kahn decided to drop the tug. The trainer grabbed it again and swung it around and Kahn nailed it. I brought him around and he just dropped it again. The trainer picked it up and Kahn just starred at him. The trainer had to get a little more active and moved around a bit and that got Kahn going again for a min and he let Kahn win the tug he walked a few feet and dropped it. The trainers like what the ****. He grabbed it and swung it again and when Kahn grabbed it had me take him off the field. He said that his "want" died out. He suggested that when we play/practice some that as soon as he drops the tug for the first time to take it away and stop. 

Wel I had to work all night last night so I slept most of today. I did take him outside to do a little playing and practice what our trainer suggested. I teased him with the tug on the ground to get him started and he gets mouthfulls of dirt trying to attack the tug. So I brought it up and after 2 shots at grabbing it I let him win it. He played fine for a couple min and then just dropped it. I took it away gave him a min and tried again and he only held it for a short time and dropped it again and I couldnt really seem to get him excited again so I stopped. 

I have kept my session short no longer than 5 minutes to try to keep him interested but he is seeming to drop out of drive really fast. I am wondering if anyone else has any expierence or ideas on how to get him more interested and keeping his drive up longer. It has been suggested to crate him more so that when he come out he had more pent up energy so that when he is more focused and realizes that when he comes out its to be with me and play. I have tried this some and it worked some, but my fiance lets him out and lets him run all over the place and play with our other pup all evening and then takes them to bed with her. So I am not sure if that is hurting the process. Is there anything else I could do to help? If that is my best idea I will build a small kennel in my basement and ony work/play with him myself.


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

> ...but my fiance lets him out and lets him run all over the place and play with our other pup all evening and then takes them to bed with her...


How old is this dog? 

He might just be tired from the extra play, or he might have figured out that if he drops the toy the chase begins again. What does he do when you go to pick up the toy again? Does he come back after it?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You have two pups the same age, that is a challenge.

At my club, the helper prefers that we do no bitework(ragwork)with pups on our own as the confidence, deep bite may be reduced or the timing off if people don't know what they're doing.
Do you reprimand him if he has something he isn't supposed to? So he is in the habit of dropping the item/outing out of habit? I've seen this at the club, when the owner comes near, the pup spits the pillow/rag because the owner has chased them around to release a shoe, kids stuffed animal, whatever...pup associates it over time and outs so they don't get in trouble.

You can still play tug or use a flirtpole, though.
Tug is fun and builds confidence, let the pup win every time and end it before the pup is checking out, mix up some commands and reward with the tug. Use the same toys/tugs for training only, and they become more high value. 
Did you use a flirt pole when your pup was younger?
I don't believe in isolating a pup by kenneling to increase drive. Either they have it or they don't... But you have two pups the same age, so interaction should be limited with them playing together if you want more focus.


----------



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Well I had to work all night last night so I slept most of today. I did take him outside to do a little playing and practice what our trainer suggested. I teased him with the tug on the ground to get him started and he gets mouthfulls of dirt trying to attack the tug. So I brought it up and after 2 shots at grabbing it I let him win it. He played fine for a couple min and then just dropped it. I took it away gave him a min and tried again and he only held it for a short time and dropped it again and I couldn't really seem to get him excited again so I stopped.


I haven't had this problem with Bison, but Moose had little to no prey drive (not saying this is the case with Kahn, just for clarification). I never trained for SchH with him, but even playing I found it critical to keep the toy in motion and my voice short and clipped and super happy.

I am not sure if this is what you meant, but it sounds like you are agitating then letting the tug go and expecting him to play with it. If the toy isn't isn't moving, it isn't fun. If you aren't doing so already, I would suggest that after you let him win, you immediately re-engage with him. Don't give him a chance to get bored. If you notice that he is lagging after three interactions, stop after two. Always leave him wanting more. 

The other thing you can do is use your voice. It doesn't really matter what you are saying, it is how you say it. Though I personally find that the words that I say help me with the inflection. Things like "Oh do want to get this? You can't get it? Nice try, too slow... What a good tug. You are so strong." Think about your puppy's voice when he is excited about something and try to match that intensity. In a seminar that I attended, the instructor who trains K-9s said that he tells the officers, "If you don't sound like a school girl, you aren't doing it right.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

This was a good thread about building drive for objects. It's LONG but it has a lot of good information I think. You need to be exciting, the tug needs to be exciting, more exciting than other things. While you might not crate, you need to take away the toys, and maybe the other dog so that the most enjoyable play happens with YOU.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/how-do-i-teach-my-dog/130346-ball-drive.html

While I do not necessarily believe that you have to constantly crate/kennel a dog to bring out drive...I do think that they need to learn to "turn on" and "turn off". And I think that this is what the crate can help you to achieve. When I let my dogs out of the crate...We work. Immediately, even if it's only one or two behaviors. When they first come out of the crate they are excited and up and have more energy. Then once they have worked I free them, put up their toys, and then they can come inside and chill out in the house. What I want them to learn is that when I let them out, we work. This ties into a lot of the behaviors I expect from them at the fied. When my dog comes out of the crate at training he needs to be "On". Once they start to understand the games that we play I can ease up on the routine because what I am trying to create is a habit of behavior. If you are planning on training on say a Saturday morning, you crate Friday night and until training on Saturday? Maybe if you know you want to work with your dog when you get home form work, you ask for the dog to be crated a couple hours before you get home. I know I work with my dogs first thing in the morning when we all get up before breakfast, and then again when I get home from work, and the puppy gets extra right before bed. 

I understand why people do not like isolating a dog to create false drive, however, I also think it works to an extent. When Argos was in for mouth surgery, he had a number of stitches throughout his gums. He wasn't allowed to have anything hard including toys. He had to be kenneled whenever I couldn't directly supervise him because he would pick up anything in the house to chew on, and he also was restricted to leash walks because if he was loose in the field where we ran our dogs he would grab sticks and we simply couldn't take the chance of him messing up the healing in his mouth. This dog was never really food driven, but I have to say from all the confinement he was so EAGER to do ANYTHING that I taught him all kinds of new behaviors with hot dogs, which surprised me. Also, even once he was able to work for toys again, his food drive remained higher than it was prior to the surgery. I think what happened is that I was able to "teach" him food drive and create a connection in his brain between being excited to work and the food. 

So I do think to a certain extent that having a dog with some drive and not allowing them to put it anywhere else except into the work can help them to learn to channel their behaviors. However I also think that if you have a dog with a lower level of drive...you're not really going to be able to get a "drivey" dog from crating.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> his "want" died out


 

Don't you just hate it when that happens? lol. I love these explanations people come up with.  Most dogs will change as they mature and what was exciting for a puppy is boring to a young adult. So, maybe he still wants it but the helper work is just not exciting or challenging enough for the dog anymore. This is a common occurrence in the playful world of protection training called SchH. Almost every club is playing too much with young pups and young dogs. There has to be a balance of the drives to bring out the dog's desire to fight and and to possess the sleeve or tug and most dogs are worked too young, so, it is not possible to achieve that balance.

I don't ever ask people to work their dog at home unless I want them to just tease the dog and not give bites. That works much better than just giving the dog the bite over and over. Also, the dog has to be at the right drive level BEFORE the bite is offered in order to hold the sleeve or tug afterwards. What the dog does with the sleeve after it is slipped is an indicator of the helper's work. If he just drops it, the work is usually boring or else they are dropping it to go back after the helper. Doesn't sound like that is the case here, it sounds like the work is boring. I don't think it is anything to worry about but I would for sure not be handing the pup something to tug all the time and I would ask the helper to work more at a distance and get the dog higher in drive before he gives him a bite and not to give him bites all the time. If he is under a year old, I might not work him at all. I would let him watch and bark and carry on and never give him a bite. Believe me, that works but the mentality in SchH nowadays is too much about playing and "rewarding" with "grips". Makes it boring because the dog is always getting the bite and usually after not doing enough to get it . They have to be completely in drive and at the right level of drive before they get to bite and again, they should not always be getting the bite, even when the drive is high.

There is also this idea now that you have to build and work grips. I'll just tell you, you don't need to build bites, if it is a good dog, they KNOW how to bite. I will just offer this little bit of advice . Anyone who wants to have a good dog in protection should wait until they are over a year old to start working the dog. If he is not interested then, wait a couple more months. It is MUCH faster to train the dog when you do it that way because the dog is starting to develop all the things he needs to work in protection and it is there for the helper to use, ( if they know how). I recently started a twenty two month old dog in protection. We have worked him 7 times and next session we will start the guarding and hold and bark. This dog will be trained really fast because he has all we need to work with. The bite is all there and he does it all in spite of the lack of play and puppy prep work that so many seem to think is necessary now. So many people are just ruining their dogs with this idea of playing with them in protection as pups. It creates problems that people spend the rest of the dog's life trying to fix.


----------



## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

JKlatsky...very well said and thank you for that explanation! Gives me some insight for ways to create a good working relationship with my two as well!


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

I appreciate all of the advice. Taking on 2 pups around the same age has been a challenge but so far so good. They both look to me to play which can be a hassel if they are both out at once. I may start to crate him at night when I am sleeping so that when I get up we can work. I usually go to the gym immediatly after I wake up and then work him some when I come home because he is super hyper at that time. I asked my fiance last week to start crating him when she went to bed so I could work him some when I came home. She thought I was an idiot because it was dark outside and she doesnt want to hear him screaming. (If he even THINKS your in the house and he is in the crate he screams his head off for awhile) That is starting to go away though. 

I really believe his prey drive is there. I have watched him literally hit a wall while trying to catch our cat and I have seen him slam himself into the ground when trying to get the tug while playing with the tugs some. I have used the leash with my tug to tease. I have a dowel rod I was going to attach a rope and put a rag on the end to tease with some. He starts fantastic every time though, so he may be getting bored. I try to change the location up and throw in different distractions sometimes. He really seems to get "turned on" by the chase especially when I am running. So If he is getting bored what are other things I could do help with that? I also know he has a bite. I have 2 scars on my knee from where he got me while I was running and my fiance has some large bruises on her legs from him playing with her. 

As far as the toys go he ONLY gets the tugs and balls when I take him out to play. I am going to have to buy him some new stuff for in the house because he ripped apart and destroyed their last toy the other day. I have been really trying to create a high value with those toys. 

I have a friend who is the former head trainer for the VA State Police K9 units. He said they never got a dog to work that was under a year old. I explained to him what the trainers were doing with the pups and he said it could be good for them but they had never done that. I just dont want him to fall behind. I really wanted to try to get a Sch1 with him by the time he was 2. I will try the suggestions from here. Thanks to everyone so far.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I'll just tell you what we do at our club with pups. If the pups are on the rag, they get one bite and then they're done. None of the circle around stuff. A couple of misses, one bite, a short tug game with the helper and then the pup wins the rag and off to the car he goes. If he drops the rag on his way off the field, helper runs and grabs the rag and teases the pup with it as the pup is taken off the field. The whole thing takes about 10-20 seconds at the most. Sometimes if the pup has been acting un-enthused, then they may just bring the pup to the puppy circle, let him watch the other pups, tease him a little and then put him up. 

It's like what Anne said - puppy does not need to bite two, three times a week from the time they are 6 months in order to "build" a good bite. A lot of it is genetic. A good pup - you can not let him bite anytime until he is 15 months old and his bite will still be better than a so so pup that has been biting 3 times a week since for 12 months.

P.S. Why do you want him to get a Sch1 by the time he is 2? Why the hurry?


----------



## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

I just dont want him to fall behind. I really wanted to try to get a Sch1 with him by the time he was 2.[/quote]


Why the time frame for titleing? If you push for the 1 by age two you will probably fall behind. Our dogs are with us a long time...don't be in a hurry, work at the dogs pace and do it right. I've seen so many people (myself included) cause problems that remain as ghosts in your closet by trying to get it done too soon.

Sue


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with the time frame. If you push to get titled by a certain time, you may regret it. Males are much slower to mature, and it isn't fair to the dog to be rushed if not ready. 
I would rather wait, wait and wait some more til we are both ready than try to rush it. I also want my dog to be enthusiastic on the field, and putting pressure on may take that away.
A strong foundation takes time and now and then we have to back step because the dog goes thru maturity blips.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am currently looking at some training information from Raiser. Haven't gotten too far as this summer is turning out to be very busy.

The first thing that really stuck out for me was when he said the dog being trained was started at 18 months old ( obedience and tracking foundation were laid during this time though). The only protection work done was a periodic check of drives every few months. Obviously these were not training sessions. 

The particular dog progressed rather rapidly to high scores in sch I protection. I am thinking early work does not necessarily translate to early titling. 

Perhaps other people have thoughts on this.


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

It has been my experience that putting time pressure on yourself and your dog makes the trial a miserable experience. In my first trial, my dog picked up on my trial nerves; when we started the "sit out of motion," I took four steps, looked back, and there was my dog, sitting perfectly. She hadn't moved from the basic position. 

Apparently she'd forgotten the "out of motion" part of it.  

I have a 2 1/4 year old bitch that's almost ready for her SchH I. I plan on running her through four mock trials before I enter "for real." With the continuation of her training and the club schedule (they train police K9's at the field, which puts it off limits for us for most of a month), this will take a minimum of eight months. She's the third dog I've trained. I told myself that this time, I was going to enter a trial when I _knew_ she would pass, not when I _thought_ she would pass.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I heard that comment at the last trial I was at a couple weeks ago. A girl didn't compete, she knew her dog was ready, but said she didn't want to _just_ pass, but do well while passing, so decided to wait!


----------



## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I heard that comment at the last trial I was at a couple weeks ago. A girl didn't compete, she knew her dog was ready, but said she didn't want to _just_ pass, but do well while passing, so decided to wait!


I think it's more about me than the dog. When I took Hunther out to try for another SchH III, I was a lot more relaxed. After all, it didn't "matter" if he passed or not; he already had the title. I was able to enjoy it more.

I want to mentally get to a place where she and I both think, "We're going to play!" no matter what level of competition we reach. Easier said than done, but that's my goal.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

Jason L said:


> I'll just tell you what we do at our club with pups. If the pups are on the rag, they get one bite and then they're done. None of the circle around stuff. A couple of misses, one bite, a short tug game with the helper and then the pup wins the rag and off to the car he goes. If he drops the rag on his way off the field, helper runs and grabs the rag and teases the pup with it as the pup is taken off the field. The whole thing takes about 10-20 seconds at the most. Sometimes if the pup has been acting un-enthused, then they may just bring the pup to the puppy circle, let him watch the other pups, tease him a little and then put him up.
> 
> It's like what Anne said - puppy does not need to bite two, three times a week from the time they are 6 months in order to "build" a good bite. A lot of it is genetic. A good pup - you can not let him bite anytime until he is 15 months old and his bite will still be better than a so so pup that has been biting 3 times a week since for 12 months.
> 
> P.S. Why do you want him to get a Sch1 by the time he is 2? Why the hurry?


I am not neccesarrily trying to build a good bite but I want to help him do his best. I want him to have that I am going to win no matter what mentality. I am not going to push the time frame on purpose. I would like to be able to do that then but if he wasnt ready I wouldnt even try. I just was hoping he would be ready around then because if I recieve an offer from one of the jobs I am trying to get, I will be gone for the most part of a year to training and then to Afghansistan. Though if it doesnt happen then it is what it is.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with the time frame. If you push to get titled by a certain time, you may regret it. Males are much slower to mature, and it isn't fair to the dog to be rushed if not ready.
> I would rather wait, wait and wait some more til we are both ready than try to rush it. I also want my dog to be enthusiastic on the field, and putting pressure on may take that away.
> A strong foundation takes time and now and then we have to back step because the dog goes thru maturity blips.


I was told the males are much slower to mature but I really didnt think it was this slow. Well it is a learning process for me. So far there seems to be this HUGE learning curve. :crazy: I know they wont start him on the pillow until he is at least 8-9 months old. It just somtimes he really seems to lack enthusiasm when you try to get him focused on a task. His attention span seems to still be very short.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Samba said:


> I am currently looking at some training information from Raiser. Haven't gotten too far as this summer is turning out to be very busy.
> 
> The first thing that really stuck out for me was when he said the dog being trained was started at 18 months old ( obedience and tracking foundation were laid during this time though). The only protection work done was a periodic check of drives every few months. Obviously these were not training sessions.
> 
> ...


OK I'm training my first Schutzhund dog so take this with a large block of salt, but, what I have observed is that overall it's better to wait and do something right than do it wrong early on and fix it later. However, I think for a noob like me that lacks the knowledge and experience to jump right in at 15+ months and progress quickly, there is something to be gained by doing foundation work in all three phases with a puppy. I do not think that it changes our outcome as far as the best my dog can be in the future (other than presenting plenty of opportunities to screw up!), but the process has taught me more about the dogs, the drives, the training, the methods, etc in general. For the same reason, if my dog is sick or injured and I go to Schutzhund training without him, I'm still learning a good deal by watching, standing in as a group, giving critiques, etc. It's not *only* about getting the highest SchH3 scores possible. I'm willing to concede that with my first dog I will make a lot of mistakes and probably never reach full potential but that's just part of the learning process. I already know how I will train my next puppy differently but I don't think it means I was "wrong" in how I trained the first one, otherwise how would I have found out what I like/don't like about the training process and how to improve?

I agree that early work does not mean early titling. I think the titling and quality of the scores and the work first depend on the genetics of the dog and second on the quality of the training/helper work. I've seen a few dogs come out at 1 or 2 years old and do their very first bitework and be ten times better than other dogs who started weekly at 14 weeks but don't have it all there genetically. But, again, I don't think that makes anyone stupid for doing puppy foundation with a dog that is not top genetics. I have no aspirations to breed dogs and am happy to do Schutzhund for fun and for enrichment for the dog even if that means me making mistakes along the way or the dog not being from the top working lines. 

As for the age of titling, I just title when I feel like doing it. That's not unique to Schutzhund. I like to place and get ribbons. If I'm paying the entry fees I might as well wait until we are ready so we can get good scores. I don't do anything "just to get it over with". I kind of like the method of training the dog fully and then doing the 1, 2, 3 pretty quickly. I'm doing a BH this weekend because I do not want to wait forever and go the other direction where I'm nervous to trial so I'm "never ready" as an excuse. But, the training has always been with the 3 in mind so we have already been working on running multiple blinds, longer tracks, stand out of motion, call out of the blind, transports, etc. SchH is the main focus of our training; I'm not rushing to title for a V rating, breed survey, or anything like that. Also I don't have bottomless pockets either. We do agility and other types of training and competition so I have to balance traveling for trials and the entry fees.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

R3C0NWARR10R said:


> I was told the males are much slower to mature but I really didnt think it was this slow. Well it is a learning process for me. So far there seems to be this HUGE learning curve. :crazy: I know they wont start him on the pillow until he is at least 8-9 months old. It just somtimes he really seems to lack enthusiasm when you try to get him focused on a task. His attention span seems to still be very short.


I have a 15 month old male that still has the attention span of a gnat.  His sister is much farther along.

My male gets pulled out once in awhile to see where he is. He has had next to no bitework at all. He isn't ready. The female I have worked maybe a couple of more time, but didn't start any real work until she was almost 14 months. She has had 4 or 5 rounds of bitework in the last 1.5 months. She has a nice hold and bark started already. If they have the right genetics then you don't need to do all of that early play/rag/puppy work. If they don't have the right genetics then all of that early stuff isn't going to make much difference (IMO).


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have this sense that Lisa is on to something here.

Virtually a novice myself, but I have not been working my pup in protection. He is a year now and I imagine around 18 months perhaps he will be ready to show something more in protection. My being a novice makes me all the more ready to wait. I also am not sure the dog can bring the full complement of what it needs in protection at an early age. If this is so, then what is the immature dog really "learning"?

Surely it is difficult to "teach" what should be brought by the genetics any way?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

As someone who has started their dog at 9 weeks and someone who has also waited until 7 or 8 months...I think waiting is better. My dogs tend to mature very quickly...so it isn't really a maturation issue here, but the more I learn the more I think that to create a balanced dog, you have to train in a balanced way and no one's going to put defense on a little puppy. And if you have a crazy prey monster puppy and all you're training them in for months is prey...you might find that later on you have difficulty changing that. As long as you have a dog with the genetics, a concept for what you're trying to accomplish and do not inadvertantly create bad habits protection training later on should be easy! In fact I think the protection is probably the easiest phase there is. Either the dog has it, or it doesn't. If you're really having to work a ton on protection, then something's wrong. Either you, the dog, or the helper. There are plenty of really great competitors out there who only train protection several sessions at a time once a month. Maybe more if they're getting ready for trial...but no way should protection require as much work as tracking or obedience...

I understand why people want to work their dogs at a young age, Especially if it's their only dog. I think it's the same reason that puppy classes sell better than adult classes. Because you're excited about the new puppy!! People who go out and spend $1500 on their new puppy with SchH in mind want to go out and WORK the dog! Heck, some people learn about working dogs on these forums...get SO excited...research and wait_ months_ for the litter to come along...Who wants to be patient another *year*?? 

Despite the urge to get puppy out there to show what they've got...I think that waiting gives the dog a better mental foundation for accomplishing the task. I think some helpers will push a puppy that is big and showing well a little more than maybe they're mentally ready for, because it can be hard to remember that you're only dealing with a puppy. 

Personally, I really don't think it's any coincidence that my strongest protection dog is also the one I waited the longest on starting...


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I have worked Karlo in protection since he was done with teething. 
He has the "right" genetics and I trust the helper completely. I think the helper makes the difference, and not pushing the dog but having the dog grow in confidence doesn't hurt him. 
When we train, we do short sessions and some weeks no protection at all. As of right now Karlo hasn't done any bitework for a month, a break is always good.


----------



## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Ike is on a break too. The more experienced people at our club are happy with what they see in him so there is really no point in doing much more with him for now.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

German Shepherd, Dog Training, Grooming, Boarding, Breeding and Sales - Breeding Dogs

Kahn is a Banja and Alex pup. The genetics are there. 

I have to agree for the first timer it is good to learn with the pup. Though we may be making mistakes but it's how we learn. I have enjoyed paricipating and will definatly train future dogs as well. Well due to time constaints and our trainer will be gone for a bit he won't be doing much actual training so I will just take him out and let him be a silly pup. I was watching a video on the leerburg site and they talked about the different stress levels of the dog. It was interesting. They showed a dog that was so focused on the prey they didn't bark. Kahn does that. Though I think he is getting bored after a couple min. So what are some games or exercises I could do with him that wouldn't put any pressure on him and keep him interested and help build his focus?


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I would forget protection and tugs for now and start building in drive for a ball or rope knot or something. 

Your puppy is young and the simple fact is that if he's really getting bored...he's not that prey driven. Because focus is an aspect of drive. A dog that is very food driven will work intensely for a longer time with food than a dog that is not food driven. Likewise a dog that is toy/play/prey driven will work intensely for longer with that stimulus. Barking is often a function of frustration, and some dogs do not bark...but you'll see them still straining against their collars/harnesses to get the rag/tug/bite pillow/etc. If he's checking out from the prey work (which is usually what all that movement and hopping around is) there are generally 2 maybe 3 possible reasons. 1- He doesn't understand the game and is confused. 2- His drive for it has been exhausted in the beginning with the first bite and he's just not that into it. 3- He's apprehensive about engaging and something the helper did turned him off. 

Without seeing the puppy it's impossible to decide. When he drops it how is his body posture? How was the bite when he took it? You say he won't carry/hold it for long...once he's won it but will he stay on tugging for a reasonable amount of time or is it easy to take it form him? 

Regardless I would go to a ball that you can tug with. You can build a lot of the same behaviors with a ball without messing up grip or targeting. And if you can get him nutty about his ball, he'll have a foundation of behavior to build from when you get back to training and reintroduce the tug/rag. Find the thread on Ball Drive...it has good ideas.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

Well if you are tugging with him he will not release the tug for anything. He will fight until you give. Even if his mouth hurts (when he was teething he only has one baby tooth left). As long as he isn't on a lead he will trot off with the tug head held high and tail wagging. When he is on lead to make it easier to re-engage he will trot around at first but after he has been let to win a few times he doesn't hold his head as high and will just walk around and then just drop it, but if you try to pick it up he will grab it and will tug to stop you from getting it. I usually switch up between using his ball and his tug. Though he is so possesive about them when he wins off leash he will not bring thm back. I have read the forum on the ball drive. It has a lot of information there. I had already incorperated some of the exercises to increase his want for the ball. He loves it now. But getting him to bring it back is impossible lol.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Have another one ready to go when he brings back the one he posesses, he may give it up as long as he knows the game is still on. Wait for him to release before you engage the one you have.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Have another one ready to go when he brings back the one he posesses, he may give it up as long as he knows the game is still on. Wait for him to release before you engage the one you have.


I will try but usually he will trot off and won't bring it back he goes to somplace in the yard sits down and starts to chew on it. Hopefully he will hold on long enough to bring it back and hopfully I will be able to make myself intersting enough for him to return to me.


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Vandal makes some excellent points regarding puppies and protection work. Doesn't there seem to be a lot of value of having your dog watch protection work? 
I have seen videos and training sessions where several dogs are on tie outs or with the handlers posting their dogs while another dog/handler team are doing bite work. I have to appreciate the young dog/pups brain development. Its physiologically not possible for them to be "balanced"? 
So I offer this questions can the game of tug with your puppy be detrimental to their development in the protection aspect of SchH? In particular over developing their prey drive? I use tug as a reward in obedience and play tug with outs, etc --the pup is in play/prey drive when I do this . I am rough with him (he's 8 months) and he loves it , but its about engaging him...so the bite is the reward in the game of tug.

Sessions are varied and rather short.

Pup is on leash, too so he does not have option of taking off with the tug - i guide him back to me with gentle "pops" and engage him again. I will give him a bite when he is at the "mindset" I want him at


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

It goes back to what was already said. If you have to do all the spinning in circles to build drive, you might have a problem with the dog. I sure don't expect everyone to agree with me but I have never done this stuff that most people are doing now, and being encouraged to do, with the balls on strings and the endless spinning around asking the dog to chase it. If the drive is in the dog, it will come out without all that work. I also do not use the tug as a prey item to lure the dog with. I use it as a release for the dog in obedience. I expect that my dogs will want to do obedience and mostly I use praise and corrections with the tug used maybe once or twice or just at the end of the session. If the dog does not want to do obedience, I am not thrilled with the dog and will probably not work him/her. That is a bloodline issue, some dogs do not like obedience. I think people are now confusing willingness with prey drive and IMO, that is just one more problem for the breed.

Also, protection work doesn't have a lot to do with playing with the handler....or the helper for that matter. That is, if you are really expecting to work the dog in a way that uses the dog's protective instincts. What the dog does with you as far as how he bites should not be , (and never is), at all the same as how he bites the bad guy. Expecting him to is a mistake and shows a lack of understanding about protection.

IMO, all the spinning around is only good for getting dizzy. I tell my clients not to do much at all as far as raising prey drive. Even if they are planning to do SchH. It is there in the dog and it will be coming out without help and at the right level if the work is balanced. 

One of the things that I see many people struggling with nowadays, ( in protection ), is the barking/guarding. Dogs who work mostly using their prey instinct do not bark well, ( and the grip is not as strong....full but not as hard as it could be). If you watch protection, you will see that when a dog chases or is watching the sleeve moving, they do not bark. That is correct behavior, it is not natural for a dog to be barking when he is chasing. The problems start when there is too much of that kind of work and the dog is always looking for the bite. Then they get quiet in anticipation. In order for the dog to guard well, he has to switch drives but the early training, ( among other things), sets one behavior over the others. The dog will always revert to what he learns first, so, for me, I want to work them the first time using all the drives he will use in protection.

I have tried working dogs all kinds of ways over the years but I am finding that the old ways are usually the best ways.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do a lot of play and tug with my dog, it's not for bitework or grip or anything other than it is FUN for both of us, a way to interact and for him to get some exercise other than road work and regular training. Just last night I was getting ready for bed and he was pacing around like he needed more exercise so I picked up an old rag and we just tugged and chased each other around for 20 minutes. I haven't seen it effect bitework one way or the other, but he works more in defense than prey anyway. I'm not naive, I know his genetics and there is a lot of room for improvement both in my training and the pure genetics but I really don't think how I play with my dog effects his work and if it does, I guess that's just too bad. I'm not *that* obsessed with Schutzhund where I will not even play games and have fun with my dog in order to eek out a few more points. I like using the prey drive to interact with my dog and exercise him.

When I get frustrated with Schutzhund it's because I start to feel that everything is way over complicated. Why should I have to worry about messing up my dog's bitework when we're just playing a GAME? To me, bitework is not a game, and a dog knows the difference, or should. Likewise, just because you might observe me playing tug with my dog does NOT mean I am attempting to train bitework on my own, we're just _playing _together. My dogs are first and foremost my pets and companions, so I will act a fool and play with them everyday for no better reason than we both *like* it. If that is a horrible thing for a Schutzhund dog then I guess you'll just never see us on the podium.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I do a lot of play and tug with my dog, it's not for bitework or grip or anything other than it is FUN for both of us, a way to interact and for him to get some exercise other than road work and regular training. Just last night I was getting ready for bed and he was pacing around like he needed more exercise so I picked up an old rag and we just tugged and chased each other around for 20 minutes. I haven't seen it effect bitework one way or the other, but he works more in defense than prey anyway. I'm not naive, I know his genetics and there is a lot of room for improvement both in my training and the pure genetics but I really don't think how I play with my dog effects his work and if it does, I guess that's just too bad. I'm not *that* obsessed with Schutzhund where I will not even play games and have fun with my dog in order to eek out a few more points. I like using the prey drive to interact with my dog and exercise him.
> 
> When I get frustrated with Schutzhund it's because I start to feel that everything is way over complicated. Why should I have to worry about messing up my dog's bitework when we're just playing a GAME? To me, bitework is not a game, and a dog knows the difference, or should. Likewise, just because you might observe me playing tug with my dog does NOT mean I am attempting to train bitework on my own, we're just _playing _together. My dogs are first and foremost my pets and companions, so I will act a fool and play with them everyday for no better reason than we both *like* it. If that is a horrible thing for a Schutzhund dog then I guess you'll just never see us on the podium.


Well as my dog is a pup and LOVES to chase, bite, and tug that is usually how I play with him. I mainly was curious as to why he may be "falling out of drive". I try to keep the games short and finish when he is still interested but somtimes it is hard to tell. I talked to my police dog training friend and he said he is probobly just getting bored because thats what we do most of the time. I have been trying to incorperate different games and stuff to take him away for it for a time to see if that is it. Plus our trainer is the one that told me what games to play to build a good base for when we really start working when he gets older. I am really not worried about titling soon but want to do what is best for him. This has been a huge learning process.


----------



## ProGSD (May 8, 2007)

R3C0NWARR10R said:


> Well as my dog is a pup and LOVES to chase, bite, and tug that is usually how I play with him. I mainly was curious as to why he may be "falling out of drive". I try to keep the games short and finish when he is still interested but somtimes it is hard to tell. I talked to my police dog training friend and he said he is probobly just getting bored because thats what we do most of the time. I have been trying to incorperate different games and stuff to take him away for it for a time to see if that is it. Plus our trainer is the one that told me what games to play to build a good base for when we really start working when he gets older. I am really not worried about titling soon but want to do what is best for him. This has been a huge learning process.


Based on what I've read, it sounds like he thinks the game is over, so he's dropping the toy (tug or ball). If you're tugging, then you're still playing and he tugs back until he wins and then he gets to run off with it and he'll either drop it or go lay down and chew on it.

First, you need to keep him on a leash so he can't run off. Next, you want to be able to grab the ball or tug again as soon as he lets it go. The easiest way to do that is to keep the ball or tug on a rope (like a ball on a stick toy). That way when he drops it, he loses it, it's gone and he has to work his butt off to get it again.

Now when I say he has to work to get it, you should be able to make him chase the ball on the end of the line for a good 30 seconds back and forth before he can get it. Then you "fight" with him by tugging. Something you said he enjoys.

It's not easy and takes some practice, since you're holding the leash in one hand and the ball or tug in the other.

You mentioned attaching the toy to a leash. Just be careful with the snap on the leash.

A few short sessions of this and he'll hold on to it even when there's no tension (it's dead).

And even when he's holding it and it's dead, he's likely to relax his grip on it. A quick pop on the rope away from him and he'll lose it again and will have to work to get it back again.

You should soon be able to add in a cradle with him calmly holding the ball in his mouth for a few seconds and then, bam, back to fighting or he loses it and he has to work to get it again.

He also should get to the point where he wants to bring it back to you to get you to fight again.

You'll also get to the point where you can't get him to let go of it.

Now, what I'm describing is for obedience. Which is what you should be working on at home by yourself. Protection can be similar, but you'll have a helper at the end of the line and something other than a ball - sleeve, large tug or rag (chamois is much better than a rag or towel).


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

ProGSD said:


> Based on what I've read, it sounds like he thinks the game is over, so he's dropping the toy (tug or ball). *If you're tugging, then you're still playing and he tugs back until he wins and then he gets to run off with it and he'll either drop it or go lay down and chew on it.*_ I had been attaching him to a leash to stop this and reel him in. He pulls on the leash to get away from me with it. _
> 
> First, you need to keep him on a leash so he can't run off. Next, you want to be able to grab the ball or tug again as soon as he lets it go. *The easiest way to do that is to keep the ball or tug on a rope (like a ball on a stick toy). That way when he drops it, he loses it, it's gone and he has to work his butt off to get it again.*_ I use the Gappay balls on a rope and the leather ob 2 handle tug. _
> 
> ...


_I am truly begining to believe that he just gets bored because I can switch up what he is doing and he is good to go again._


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I prefer to work with 2 balls than removing, even with a rope, the ball the dog has by force. I would keep the long leash on the dog but not as much to reel him back as to not let him "relax and enjoy" with the ball he has. I would give him a ball and then tease him with the second ball. Use psychology, your alive ball has to be more interesting and fun than his dead ball, specially if you do not let him lay down and chew it as he wants. Throw the ball for him as soon as he drops his. Don't ask him to bring the ball at first, only reward by letting go, gradually you can ask him to drop it nearer and nearer to you until he finally gives it back.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

R3C0NWARR10R said:


> First, you need to keep him on a leash so he can't run off. Next, you want to be able to grab the ball or tug again as soon as he lets it go. The easiest way to do that is to keep the ball or tug on a rope (like a ball on a stick toy). That way when he drops it, he loses it, it's gone and he has to work his butt off to get it again. I use the Gappay balls on a rope and the leather ob 2 handle tug.


This is good when you want to build possessiveness for the toy, it is good for hard tugging and to play with the helper, but if your goal is that the dog gives the ball back... you are building exactly the opposite.

I like the 2 balls game not only because it teaches to give the toy back and then you can resume play or training, but because it builds a relationship of trust with the handler. Their humans is not the guy who ends fun, but the one who make it start again, the one who is the source of good things and not someone you have to fight and compete against. I think that it is more important to work with a young pup that the concepts of griping or outing.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

Catu said:


> This is good when you want to build possessiveness for the toy, it is good for hard tugging and to play with the helper, but if your goal is that the dog gives the ball back... you are building exactly the opposite.
> 
> I like the 2 balls game not only because it teaches to give the toy back and then you can resume play or training, but because it builds a relationship of trust with the handler. Their humans is not the guy who ends fun, but the one who make it start again, the one who is the source of good things and not someone you have to fight and compete against. I think that it is more important to work with a young pup that the concepts of griping or outing.


I am trying to create some posessiveness in him so that he wants to do everything he can to keep the toy, but at the same time want to re-engage me to play more. I need to get a piece of rope and make a new one for the one ball as they chewed through the one. I did put him down the hallway this morning threw and when he brought it back I gave him a treat. I am going to do that for a couple of days and then try it outside.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I am getting ready for work in the morning, my dog will bring me a cuz or whatever and push into me with it, he is trying to engage me...does your pup do this with you when you are ignoring him?

Having his favorite high value toys available only at training times helps the dog feel more possessive. I use a couple of french linen tugs, and balls on string for training only. 
They are more special in Karlo's eyes because they aren't available to him whenever.


----------



## R3C0NWARR10R (Mar 26, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> When I am getting ready for work in the morning, my dog will bring me a cuz or whatever and push into me with it, he is trying to engage me...does your pup do this with you when you are ignoring him?
> 
> Having his favorite high value toys available only at training times helps the dog feel more possessive. I use a couple of french linen tugs, and balls on string for training only.
> They are more special in Karlo's eyes because they aren't available to him whenever.


The balls and tugs are not available to him unless I get them to play/train some. The rest of the time he has a couple kongs and stuff laying around to play with or chew on. 

When I get up in the morning or when im home he will try to grab whatever is in my hand to play, even if it is not one of his toys:crazy:. Only every once in awhile he will bring me one of the toys to play. He would rather try and catch the cat most days.


----------



## ProGSD (May 8, 2007)

R3C0NWARR10R said:


> *Now when I say he has to work to get it, you should be able to make him chase the ball on the end of the line for a good 30 seconds back and forth before he can get it. Then you "fight"* *with him by tugging. Something you said he enjoys.*_This is what I have been doing with him. After I let him win I either re-engage or run him in a circle, then re-engage._
> 
> 
> *A few short sessions of this and he'll hold on to it even when there's no tension (it's dead). *_He already does this. I have actually gotten him to carry it 1/4 mile back up our road. _
> ...


I suspect you're not making him work long enough with you teasing him with the ball and not letting him get it.

If he's not "grabby" to get it back, tease him with the ball and make him really work to get it again.

You could also try starting to train the recall command (hier or come) with the ball under your chin and him on a long line.

He should want to bring it back to you to re-engage and fight or play.


----------

