# Attaining a Major



## cliffson1

I am going to try to have some intelligent discourse on this subject, but if people get mean or defensive will moderators please pull the plug.

It seems to me that the lack of entries in ASL is making it really difficult to create champions these days on a reasonable budget. Furthermore, it would also seem to reason that if the numbers for a Major is as little as 15 or less in many regions, then in many classes only one or two dogs are competing. This would not reflect any competition in the class ring more times than not. Certainly, this is not economics alone, because I see SV like conformation shows that are often overflowing with applicants,(though I feel my following premise applies to them also). 
So my thought process is....why doesn't the leadership of the GSDCA through their Judges program reflect a more moderate dog being able to finish. I think many people who enjoy conformation do not participate because they know their dog does not have the extreme traits to be capable of winning. Why WASTE money?.....yet we have many hundreds of people who compete in SV trials that have been bitten by conformation bug, and have AKC registered dogs. If a fraction of these people competed then the begging for numbers to make a Major wouldn't be necessary. It stands to reason that the leadership of the GSDCA would recognize this and by opening up the winning criteria to a more moderate dog, they could strengthen the numbers, the competition, the quality, and ultimately the breed. 
This makes sense to me, so what is the reason why this approach couldn't be taken to make Majors more attainable?......Just curious.


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## Doc

Now Cliff, that would also mean opening up the genetic pool and Lord knows we don't need that ...


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## Liesje

Maybe there is the element of prestige? I've heard AKC folks criticize SV and UKC because of how "easy" it is to get a top rating or to finish a CH (UKC GRCH, not so much). You get a rating in an SV show regardless of the dog's age or training, and you can earn a UKC CH in a weekend if you have a good dog and it's a large cluster (like AKC, you also need enough competition for wins to count).


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## dogfaeries

Since, I started this by griping about the numbers, I'll jump in. 




cliffson1 said:


> It seems to me that the lack of entries in ASL is making it really difficult to create champions these days on a reasonable budget.


Actually entries are down in general. Not just in GSDs. We were just discussing last week that it used to cost $10 to enter a dog in a class, and I just paid $28 an entry last week. If you are only showing one dog, then fine. But get multiple dogs in the ring, combined with hotel and travel expenses, it gets pricey. Oh, and if you have a handler, then the price goes way UP. 



cliffson1 said:


> Furthermore, it would also seem to reason that if the numbers for a Major is as little as 15 or less in many regions, then in many classes only one or two dogs are competing. This would not reflect any competition in the class ring more times than not.


Well actually, no. 
If there are 14 bitches at a show, it really doesn't make much difference in how they are distributed in the classes. The winners of each class then compete against each other for the points. Kind of like playoffs in basketball, lol. BTW, there are 3 pt majors, 4 pt majors, and 5 point majors. My girl Carly finished with two 3 pt majors and a 4 pt major. It's not impossible. 

I have a breeder friend that shows in Bred By Exhibitor. Oftentimes she is the only one entered in her class. She gets the blue in her class, and goes on to compete in Winners. Her male is NICE, and I've seen him get three Best of Breeds over champions, with him starting out as the only dog in Bred By. Just because he had no/little competition in his class, doesn't mean he had no competition to get the points, or BOB.

Does this make any sense? I think I'm rambling now...




cliffson1 said:


> why doesn't the leadership of the GSDCA through their Judges program reflect a more moderate dog being able to finish. I think many people who enjoy conformation do not participate because they know their dog does not have the extreme traits to be capable of winning.


It doesn't take "extreme traits" to win in the ring. Believe me there are all kinds of judges out there. They put emphasis on different traits. Some like a moderate dog. Some love side gait. Some have to have a dog that is clean coming and going. And yes some do like an extreme dog. Some judges put dogs up that I haven't a clue what they were going for. That breeder friend that wins Best of Breed from the Bred By class? Very moderate dog.

This is why it takes 2 majors under 2 different judges, and then the rest of your points from at least one other judge.


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## Xeph

^^What Diane said.

I don't have what I feel are extreme dogs, and they really do alright for themselves. Are they specialty types? In general, no. Wesson may do well in both rings, but I do not have a preference for specialties to begin with.

I just dropped over $200 in entry fees for the Raleigh cluster next week. That is freaking PAINFUL! Not to mention the cost of travel and lodging (Thank GOODNESS I have friends to split the cost of the room, or I'd be screwed).

These are the counts for Raleigh:
Thursday: 4-16(4-2)
Friday: 9-21(3-2)
Saturday: 11-18(3-3)
Sunday: 14-22(3-2)

There is a major on both sides 3 out of 4 days, however, on Friday it only makes a major by two dogs...if they don't show up, have to hope the judge will cross over the points from the bitch side.

It's a four point major all week for the bitches....where are all the boys? It's quite a pain when you have to hope the judge will cross over the points if your boy needs a major because not enough are entered.

This has been a VERY common trend, lately. Tons of bitches.....no dogs.


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## dogfaeries

Yes, tons of bitches and no dogs. I see it over and over. However our particular GSD club members suddenly are cropping up with males to show. Thank goodness, since I'll be having a male myself soon! (we'll be begging each other to enter).

My next show is in 11 days. I'm going alone with just Sage, and meeting my handler there. So I have a 3 day show, with one dog, with no one to share hotel expenses (ouch) and 3 days of entry and handler fees. I estimate it's going to be at least a $600 weekend.  That really stings when you come home with NO points, lol! Add in the fact that it's not even a major... sigh

Well, good luck on the Raleigh show, Jackie! Fingers crossed that your majors hold up and you get some points.


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## Andaka

I my area we see some WGSL/ASL crosses being shown and finished. And my ASL dogs are not extreme.

But...I have attended the judges' seminar put on by the GSDCA at a National and another breeder and I argued with the mentor of our group about the (lack of) virtues of an extreme rear. We could change her mind, but we tried.


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## dogfaeries

We have a breeder in this area that will occasionally show their WGSLs in AKC. They showed 2 weeks ago in Texas at the show Sage was in. They didn't do anything, but then neither did Sage. 

When Carly got her first 2 points, their WGSL male went Winners Dog and Best of Winners. Carly went Winners Bitch and their WGSL bitch went Reserve. Just sayin'...

(and Carly's litter sister went BOB)


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## Liesje

The last AKC event I did was a puppy match. The judges were people who were nearly finished with whatever program the AKC uses for new judges. The lady that judged our puppies had no idea that there were different types of GSD. She said ours (I went with a few others and we all had WGSL) looked different and she wasn't sure how to judge them. That did not inspire any confidence in me to continue with AKC conformation (though I should say the match before that, the man who judged gave me a good critique for Nikon and was very thorough, even with puppies).


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## selzer

Clubs put on shows and choose judges by how that judge judges. A good judge will give no points if there is not a dog worthy of points in the dogs he is judging. The judges that are giving points to dogs that have more angulation believe that the more angulated dog is correct. Forcing such a judge to give points to a dog that they believe is incorrect would corrupt. 

GSDCA is only really the parent club, and they have a list of judges, and those judges are all a little different in their interpretation of the standard. The judges chosen are the judges the people who put on the shows want judging. And all of that is basically specialty shows. In all-breed shows more moderate dogs do better. And there are sieger shows in places other than Germany. If you have a German dog, show them where the German dogs are. 

Bringing German dogs, show line or working line to a specialty show is just setting yourself up to be angry and your dog to lose. Why do that?


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## dogfaeries

^^ what seltzer said!




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## cliffson1

Why do that?....because they are German Shepherds. Not ASL, or WGSL, or WL, none of these terms are in the standard, I don't think. And I have been told that there are good dogs of all types so if I have a good structured dog it should do well against other dogs of less quality regardless of lines. 
@Dogfairies....I am aware of the conformation structure...lol...ask Jackie....I used to show in the breed ring in early seventies when you needed 60 to 70 dogs for majors.....and BBE was the only class that usually had less than 4 dogs in it. With the numbers I see now, it appears that many classes may only have 1 or 2 dogs in them. Yes, I understand your friend has nice bred by, but many mediocre dogs are shown also and if they win their class then wouldn't they be in contention for winners dog/bitch?
I am not trying to be cantankerous, it just seems that a good conformation dog should do well regardless of the origin of the show. To promulgate the separation of either American or German dogs from either ring if they are sound seems to me to be to not be right. Like Daphne said, their should be crosses that win if they have proper structure and temperament...regardless of lines. I hope a more universal approach to judging the breed is still sought by folks like Daphne because I see that as an opportunity for larger entries, which gives maybe better quality in winning selections.


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## Liesje

cliffson1 said:


> Why do that?....because they are German Shepherds. Not ASL, or WGSL, or WL, none of these terms are in the standard, I don't think. And I have been told that there are good dogs of all types so if I have a good structured dog it should do well against other dogs of less quality regardless of lines.
> [...]
> I am not trying to be cantankerous, it just seems that a good conformation dog should do well regardless of the origin of the show. To promulgate the separation of either American or German dogs from either ring if they are sound seems to me to be to not be right. Like Daphne said, their should be crosses that win if they have proper structure and temperament...regardless of lines. I hope a more universal approach to judging the breed is still sought by folks like Daphne because I see that as an opportunity for larger entries, which gives maybe better quality in winning selections.



Come play UKC!


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## gagsd

Around here, UKC shows are won by the same AKC type dogs.


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## Andaka

Lies, will you come down and show my dog?


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## Renoto

cliffson1 said:


> Why do that?....because they are German Shepherds. Not ASL, or WGSL, or WL, none of these terms are in the standard, I don't think. And I have been told that there are good dogs of all types so if I have a good structured dog it should do well against other dogs of less quality regardless of lines.
> 
> I am not trying to be cantankerous, it just seems that a good conformation dog should do well regardless of the origin of the show. To promulgate the separation of either American or German dogs from either ring if they are sound seems to me to be to not be right. Like Daphne said, their should be crosses that win if they have proper structure and temperament...regardless of lines. I hope a more universal approach to judging the breed is still sought by folks like Daphne because I see that as an opportunity for larger entries, which gives maybe better quality in winning selections


This is exactly how it should be, and I wish to God's green garden that it was, but the way things have evolved today different types of GSD's have emerged. The same way different races of people have emerged, were all one species but different varieties of it. 

I think the reason that it isnt that way though, or part of the reason, is because different people take different things out of different standards. I was going over the AKC standard the other day in preparation for my show this past weekend (with a working line bitch) and the standard calls for a rear that is as close to a 90° angle as possible. But then the SV standard (I think it was SV, I'm unsure now...) said that the rear angle should be closer to 120°. That is a big difference, and for a reason. 

If you look at the WGL and the DDR dogs, they evolved side by side, separated by a wall and two different societies and they evolved so much differently. Dogs were bred according to what was needed at the time, but it's not really needed anymore. AKC people believe the extreme rear helps the dog do it's job, they'll swear by it, yet you rarely see them in trials. Far as I know actually AKC people extremely dislike the working sports. It's all in how they interpret what is best for the breed. Differences of opinion is really hard to change. But because of that, you'll always see one type of dog benefiting in a specific venue. And more people who want to succeed there will breed more of the same, and the type will remain.

Sorry I wrote a lot. I'm very wordy online.


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## dogfaeries

cliffson1 said:


> Yes, I understand your friend has nice bred by, but many mediocre dogs are shown also and if they win their class then wouldn't they be in contention for winners dog/bitch?


I'm not sure I know what you mean by "mediocre" dogs.

There will always be a variety in the quality of dogs shown. The judge determines what in his mind is the best of the dogs presented to him, and awards accordingly. 

If you win some with your mediocre dog, you will eventually have to compete with better quality dogs. It all evens out.


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## Liesje

Andaka said:


> Lies, will you come down and show my dog?


Oh I'd LOVE to if I could travel more!! Flyball is sucking up my money pretty quick now that we're going farther and farther out. I'm hoping to show Nikon again in May.


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## dogfaeries

gagsd said:


> Around here, UKC shows are won by the same AKC type dogs.


I have a dog show friend who is a junior, that shows her Papillons and Border Collies in both AKC and UKC. She does well in both venues. 
She keeps badgering me to let her show Sage in UKC.


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## wolfstraum

I have done a few AKC shows for OB and gone to quite a few more to support friends...NOT GSD people, Visla, Aussies, GSPt....I see the GSD ring....even watch it a bit occasionally...generally, Euro dogs are shunned....they are usually placed last, even ignored by some judges - seriously one judge looked at his notes the whole time a WGWL dog was being gaited, did not even give the owner a courtesy of watching the dog... I used to be kind of friendly with a couple of people who stated they were tired of the spooky temperament in the AKC ring - one guy bred to Grand Victors, had finished several dogs and was active in the AKC ring....they just could not get past their adoration of "side gait". Even with German dogs in their kennels, training and a few even getting some titles, they kept going on about side gait as the be all and end all of the breed. This absolute fascination/adoration of 'side gait' and even recognizing the temperament issue, these people could NOT move on past their original attitude and belief that the ASL is the correct and Ultimate GSD....one even told me that the GERMANS did not know what a good GSD was!

I have often thought if the WGSL people would approach the AKC ring with entries consistently, that they could start a movement to change what was winning...but that would never fly in specialty shows or with AKC judges whose primary breed was GSDs...

Lee


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## Renoto

wolfstraum said:


> I have often thought if the WGSL people would approach the AKC ring with entries consistently, that they could start a movement to change what was winning...but that would never fly in specialty shows or with AKC judges whose primary breed was GSDs...
> Lee


Oh but it would be great fun. 
Actually the chief Steward for a lot of AKC shows around here is a personal friend of mine, and she's told me that she has noticed a lot more working type GSD's being entered in shows, which I think is fantastic. 
If more people of other types really did start consistently and actively participating in AKC conformation shows, who knows, maybe there could be a change. Especially as older members of the fancy start to gray out, who knows what a new generation could bring.
I know that at least 1 positive change is that GSD's now have to 'check in' with the judge. Basically the judge has to be able to pet and say 'hi' to all of them without issues. 
And I've been hearing a lot more talk with non-GSD people how they are tired of seeing all the 'froggy legged' GSD's at AKC shows. I had 1 lady tell me that my dog is what she pictured GSD's to look like, and my girl is a dark black sable working type. So there's people out there who want a change...


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## gagsd

And I stood ringside with my dark sable male, and a woman wearing an AKC Judge's ribbon commented on my Dutchie.

I used to show my young dogs in AKC conformation. The attitude of "what do you think you are doing here" coupled with complete lack of any engagement from any judge made me quit spending the money.


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## Liesje

It's not that I really have anything against AKC, but I am not made of money. There is only so much money I can spend and only so many hours in a day I can devote to my dogs. I already have two reputable venues of conformation within my reach that I enjoy doing. UKC lets me enter day-of, so I can wake up on a Saturday, see that the weather is nice and my dog is in coat, and go off to a show. For SV shows I often do ring photography and while I don't make much, it at least covers my own entry fee and cost to travel there. AKC doesn't afford either of these bonuses so why spend money on yet *another* conformation venue where my dog is not going to do well when we could do a flyball tournament or dock diving demo instead and my dog will have way more fun?


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## cliffson1

Not sure of an answer, I understand what the different perspectives are....just felt like there would be benefit to a more moderate approach in Judging for the overall health of the breed. The numbers in the American ring keeps getting smaller and smaller....Yet I see in both SV nationals in the states very large entries of 300 plus dogs....not reflecting that one is better than other, just that obviously there are plenty of people doing conformation and yet requirements for majors and points keep getting smaller in most places......seems like something isn't working.
Thanks for replies and everyone keeping things civil....TC.


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## onyx'girl

I train with a few (random, never the same) AKC people and when they see my dog for the first time, they kind of gasp...because they aren't use to seeing a sable or one with that type structure and temperament. And when he goes over/on the agility equipment without being lured or enticed, they are really surprised, because that's not what they expect a GSD to be after seeing them in the show or obedience ring.
Usually this is the first time we are ever in these venues, because we bop around and my dog doesn't care that it isn't familiar. He goes in with intrigue. 
I find it sad that people view the GSD as a timid, fearful tail tucked dog with rear end weakness.

I'm almost embarrassed lately to say what breed I even own/work.


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## Renoto

cliffson1 said:


> The numbers in the American ring keeps getting smaller and smaller....Yet I see in both SV nationals in the states very large entries of 300 plus dogs....


I was just thinking about that in the car too, at the last AKC show I went to there were only 8 GSD's, not even enough for 2 points in bitches. And there were 5 bitches to 3 dogs, 2 of the dogs were even specials. Smallest GSD ring I've ever seen heh. 

But with SV shows (again I think, still learning and reading up on these things) or at least breed surveys, a lot of these events seem to almost be required for breeding. Sure you can not work/train/compete with your GSD and still breed it, but you certainly wont be selling to anyone in that venue. It would be like if the AKC suddenly made it mandatory for all GSD's to have a Ch. to have puppies eligible for registration. Then maybe you'd see a bigger swell in people being involved in shows. 

With AKC though, I've never seen any....I cant think of the word...well reason to have a dog reach CH. status besides the notariety. I've known AKC breeders who will breed their dogs just because of the lines or who their dogs parents were (without ANY competition, not even agility), and for most show people lines are good enough a reason to breed. Theres nothing stopping breeders from breeding non-shown dogs until they get a pup they think will 'do something' in the ring. There's no incentive - that's the word! - to go beyond looks and lines.


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## wolfstraum

Problem is that the judging would have to change and the Euro dogs be considered rather than ignored before people would start showing....I've had a couple who might have done decent in the ring...Danger in particular...but why waste the money when there is such prejudice against the European dogs??? And getting beyond a cold shoulder from the ASL people - have tried, just in ob fun matches etc and there is no camaraderie or welcome

Lee


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## dogfaeries

onyx'girl said:


> I train with a few (random, never the same) AKC people and when they see my dog for the first time, they kind of gasp...because they aren't use to seeing a sable or one with that type structure and temperament. .


I keep hearing that no one shows sables, much less do well with them. 

That isn't true where I live. My local GSD club seems to be overflowing with sables right now. All ASL. 

One is an AKC Grand Champion. One sable puppy has her CD and she is working on her CDX right now (she has also been shown in conformation). Two other members each have sable male puppies that will be shown in conformation (and one of them will also do obedience and probably agility). We have sables coming out of our ears!


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## gsdsar

Many many years ago, I took my solid black DDR boy to a local GSD club match. More for exposure for him. It was a fun day. The stories of Ike are still remembered from that show. 

Everyone was wonderful. Handlers and owners helped me learn how to stack him, and gait him. It was great. Did we win, NOPE. But we had a blast. 

The judge was great. When he came to do his eval of Ike, his comment to me was " do you plan on showing this dog?" I found it hilarious, told him " no, he is my SAR dog, this is for exposure". And the judge dud everything he could to make it a good experience. Ike was 3 inches out if standard, stupid lanky with ears that could hear the TARDIS moving in space and time, not a show dog. But we felt super welcome. 

I am flirting with the idea of doing some shows with my new puppy. Not because I want to finish my pup, but because its good exposure. Judges can't put up what they don't see. And I don't need the validation of a judge to feel like a winner. 


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## Xeph

I have told people time and again (here and elsewhere), give me a good Euro dog, and I WILL SHOW IT, and I WILL WIN WITH IT!

Don't bring me a dog with a broken topline. Not unless it's real mild. It's not correct, no matter how much people insist it is and how much it is bred for. The back is supposed to be straight. You cannot convince me that a dog with a curve in its back has a straight back.

It is as offensive to me as a dog with a ridiculous amount of rear. My pretty bi color bitch? She's got too much rear! She actually mellowed out from when she was a baby, but she's still got rear! i'll be breeding her accordingly to temper that a bit.

Cliff, hand me one of your dogs, I'll show it, I'll win with it


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## carmspack

Hi Cliff , good discussion . Changes are needed . If you go back to German Shepherd Dog Reviews, the monthly magazine published by the German Shepherd Club of Amercia of the early 1970's you will see many a dog that was a direct German import competing , winning , in the same ring , with very similarly conformed dogs of the domestic "American" bred GSD --- and temperament was much closer also . This is a point I made to "Bethany" a young forum member who had asked for a mentor in preparation to her being a breeder some time in the near future. I sent her a dozen or so very early Reviews having spent more time than I had available earmarking dogs and making comments about them. I still have dozens of old books available - no charge but shipping must be covered . 
In my experience , having handled GSD in all-breed ring and in specialty ring , and under the "new" SV type shows , the difference toward a type became more polarized as time went on. I had the privilege of sitting with friend and Ann Mesdag of von Nassau GSD kennels who owned Lakesides Harrigan , that super producer 1972 GV CH (US) Lakeside's Harrigan.
We were at a National Specialty show with Grand Victor/Victrix at stake. She kept poking me in the ribs with her elbows -- what do you see? what about him? tell me this tell me that ! Little inside information. Which dogs had what done to them .. and things only a judge who would march up to a dog for examination would know about the character . 
Nobody that had anything to do with GSD in show on the east coast could help but witness a very rapid change and adoption to extreme , wobbly hocked , knit and purl club , GSD , in part largely created by Mirheim's Abbey , a Lance of Fran Jo daughter who was bred to her own sire Lance , producing Zeus, Zeto and Joey . Those breedings were done by Mary Vurma , who mentored a friend Jan Armstrong Sanhedrin - About Us.
Jan was mentored by Mary Vurma and has done exceptionally well in her chosen field . I took a fork in the road and I hope I can say I have done well.
My last American show lines ended with Carmspack Lalique , a "thing" of beauty --- helped her owner Bob Hooey select just the right male for her , which was Cobra which brought some of the Hessian (movement and front) which Lalique had through Carmspack Ambergris , merged with BlackJack's same family type , Hessian's Baldur , often used in illustrations for reach and movement . That produced co-bred "Marvelous" who was dam of 
---- the next generation resulting in Chimo SEL CH (US/CAN) Winning Ways Chimo - it worked !

next generation -- and there is a dog who in body type was/is closer to what I had 
Echo Cham's Perfect Storm

== there will be changes . A new handbook for judges , a new interpretation , bringing balance to the GSD is in the works , commissioned by the American German Shepherd Dog Club. That illustrator will be Linda Shaw , whose illustrations and articles are already available in the German publication Das Shaferhund Magazin.
Ironically now that there is a recognition and return to more balanced, moderate , let's hope standard , conformation in the American bred dogs, some of the German dogs are looking more like American specialty bred GSD !


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## Xeph

I thought the GSDCA had once hired Linda Shaw, and then fired her for "making fun" of a US Grand Victor?

(And I did take away more from your post than just that, Carmen )


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## carmspack

Linda is not compromising on her position . If asked to illustrate the standard it is the standard that they will get , not some other custom made version. Faults will be pointed out . These articles should cover it Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
then part two and three .
This is what Cliff is saying , same as Linda "“New activities” aren’t going to renew interest in American specialty shows. That is missing the point. The shows aren’t important. Returning to the standard is."

so not joking , reality check --


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## Xeph

I've seen her illustrations many times. I point many people to them. I find them well done and very useful.

The way you wrote your post made it sound as if the GSDCA had rehired her, hence my inquiry.


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## carmspack

she is commissioned again. and as I understand things she held her ground and said she would only do it if the illustration represented "the standard" not a version of some group or fancy . so not fired - just needed to set the terms.
She has also illustrated other breed clubs standards.


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## Xeph

That is excellent news


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## Liesje

My other hangup is that I just don't spend that much time ring training myself or my dogs, but I place a high value on my dogs being Handler-Owner-Trained and titled. I'm not against professional handling, I just don't want it for my dogs. I don't have enough experience in the AKC ring to do my dog justice.


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## wolfstraum

xeph - kristi lives about 40 miles south of you - towards the airport....she has in her hands a dog who might be a V dog - a sable WL girl....I will pay the entries to the memorial day show (as long as there is nothing else committed - but we should have Chuck x Hexe pups on the ground anyway) - Kristi handles in the ring for a few AKC people but lives with this dog so probably should not handle her...










this is a working line pup who got BOB, 2nd in Group in a Match...AKC judge doing the judging - but not a GSD guy.....said he should be in the ring....IPO1, RH1, SAR certified out the wazoo....

Lee


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## Xeph

He is beautiful!


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## cliffson1

As you know Jackie, I have a 15 month old male that I think has very nice structure....he literally floats when he moves and he can gait at a very fast pace with straight back and clean. AKC people I train with on Sunday's tell me in the days that they owned Cobert Reno's progeny he is very similar to those dogs and really has nice movement. Eye is not as dark as people like, but overall a very balanced nice male. Of course his temperament is a rock star to these folks....my point is, in the seventies I would show this dog in the breed ring because he would get a fair shot and not put to back just because he is European. Today, I dont have money to waste. The ladies who are still GSDCA members and officers in their club encourage me to, but shucks they have moved from owning AKC champions in the past to now having WGSL and WL dogs. They assure me he wont be looked at fairly because though he moves very nicely, he still looks German(whatever that means)......but they are also hopeful that the breed moves back to like it was when they had Cobert and Lakeside progeny. Anyway, I see things moving slowly, i guess my frustration is I wont see it in my lifetime....lol.


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## carmspack

he is a SHE 
yes there were some really good dogs , hope we see a return to them ..


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## Liesje

Uh it looks like a "he"....


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## martemchik

I've recently started showing in UKC. It was fun, but not much competition. A championship is quite easy to get. The AKC people at my club laughed at the UKC thing, but they did tell me to become a better handler and then possibly make some money off of that (AKC and SV). I was told to keep him out of any AKC specialty show (including our own) and I could try all-breed shows, but even that might be a tough go.

Like a previous poster mentioned...its extremely expensive to finish a dog. Majors are hard to come by, and when you do get one (at least in my area) every bitch is bred to him. It's pretty terrible actually.


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## Xeph

Uh, yeah. The dog posted has a penis, lol


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## carmspack

"she has in her hands a dog who might be a V dog - a sable WL girl....I will pay the entries to the memorial day " must be talking about two different dogs 

here I thought they, the owner of the female and other person, were talking about the judge , who should be in the ring , judging is not a gsd guy, "AKC judge doing the judging - but not a GSD guy.....said he should be in the ring" a conversation that may be had if the show is all breed and you are taking a dog into the ring to be judged by a person who might know rottweilers better . Some people will only take GSD under judges that breed GSD and not someone who has gsd on their ticket .
male , female , nice dog in any case - like the topline , croup, and stifle .


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## Xeph

Lies and I are talking about the picture that wolfstraum posted. The dog in the picture is male


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## Liesje

Carmen the description you quoted is for a different dog. This one is male and the description is below the photo.


wolfstraum said:


> this is a working line pup who got BOB, 2nd in Group in a Match...AKC judge doing the judging - but not a GSD guy.....said he should be in the ring....IPO1, RH1, SAR certified out the wazoo....


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## wolfstraum

LOL LOL Yes - that is Danger! a Basha son....he is the one who my friend - the handler, who has finished Dobes and now Rotts...also did a couple sch1s on Rotts - twisted my arm to put into the ring at a match where we were doing OB....Danger won Breed, and was second in Group - over 8 or 9 ASL dogs - the judge was a AKC judge too - don't know what breed he was associated with normally - this was a match and he volunteered to do a bunch of classes...Danger also had a couple VPs, and SGs prior to being titled....my co-owner never got him back to a ring where everyone said he would 'V' - heck even a big name show breeder thought he was by Champ Dakota since he did not look like Timo!

The other dog I mentioned is Kyra v Wolfstraum, born Halloween 2011 - don't have a good stack of her handy - Kristi and I were chatting about doing a couple all breeds with her for S&G - LOL but I would probably get steamed about being beat by ASLs....

Lee


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