# Would you recommend breeding if...



## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

I know this is frowned upon mostly. But, because my pup is about 26 weeks old, and has one of the best temperaments, personalities and looks I have seen in any breed of dog, I want to consider studding him. He is always complemented by others near and far; is smart, attached, attentive, calm, aloof, friendly, and quiet. Everything that I look for in a dog.

The only thing is, he was purchased from a pet shop, who do proclaim that they inspect each kennel and puppy by AKC standards, that they purchase from, so that makes me feel better. I have not had his joints examined yet, have only been teaching him basic obedience so far, but I can honestly say he is one of the better dogs I have been around. 

My questions;
How essential is the pedigree?
Recommend breeding just to keep these traits?
When do the "real" traits come out?
Is this completely discouraged when you don't purchase from a highly reputable breeder, and have never bred yourself?

My vet is encouraging me to neuter him at 6months and no less or more, just for her reasoning that it makes them "calmer and more obedient". I am requesting a pedigree from the breeder tonight it's $50 to register my pup and receive the pedigree.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

oh honey I honestly think my pup is THE best looking out there. and she picks up commands like none other + her temprament and nerve is pretty average (ehm). But, no I wouldn't breed her for those reasons. I'm sure others can answer more scientifically but just because a parent has good genes doesn't mean those genes will transfer over to the puppies...it probably has to be generations of good genes, you know? 

How essential is the pedigree? I honestly do not know
Recommend breeding just to keep these traits? Like I said, I don't think traits always transfer over from parent to puppies that easily...
When do the "real" traits come out? I do not know 
Is this completely discouraged when you don't purchase from a highly reputable breeder, and have never bred yourself? IMO I wouldn't discourage it but I wouldn't encourage it either.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If he was purchased from a pet shop it's highly likely he's a puppy mill dog. Just because they inspect the kennel and the dogs doesn't mean the facility is not a high volume commercial kennel. 

You may have won the lottery and gotten a terrific dog, but I would definitely not breed him if there's any possibility he's from a puppy mill. In answer to your questions, the pedigree is very important, and there are plenty of dogs with great looks, health, and temperament being bred so even if your dog is all of that, the breed will not suffer is you don't breed him. Until he's mature you really won't know what his "real" traits are, and he would need to be at least 2 years old in order to be OFA certified which would be the absolute bare minimum you should do prior to making decisions about breeding.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Why do you want to breed her?

I know with both my dogs their real traits didn't come out until they hit about 1.5 years old. As puppies, it was difficult to find a single flaw in their temperament. As adults now, I think they have good temperaments but not good enough for breeding.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

A good link: Friends of Animals | Puppy Mills, Pet Shops, and the AKC Basic Facts


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Don't breed this dog. You will be contributing to the pet overpopulation problem in this society if you breed this dog.


How essential is the pedigree? *Very. No reputable breeder will even consider breeding to a dog without one or to one with a pet shop pedigree. Ever wonder why they ask about your Grandparents and Parents when you go to the doctor? That's because genetic diseases are passed through families. If you have no clue about your dog's family history, how do you know if this family line is healthy or breed worthy?*
Recommend breeding just to keep these traits? *No. There are thousands of other GSDs with the exact same traits you are describing, but that in no way makes your dog breed worthy. Leave it to someone who knows what they are doing and has the experience to do it right. Good stud males are a dime a dozen. There is no reason to breed a puppy mill dog, sorry. *
When do the "real" traits come out? *Your puppy is too young to even consider breeding. Their personalities tend to emerge as they grow. GSDs are usually considered adults at age 2 or so. *
Is this completely discouraged when you don't purchase from a highly reputable breeder, and have never bred yourself? *Yes. No reputable breeder will use a pet shop dog as a stud for their bitch. Those that are asking you to breed do not have the best interest of the breed in mind and probably have no clue what makes for breed worthy dogs. *

Neuter your dog at your vet's recommendation. This dog doesn't need to be bred. No reputable breeder will allow their dogs to be sold out of a pet shop. No offense, but any dog from a pet shop is not a breeding candidate imo.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

if you purchased an AKC registered put (even from a pet shop) they aren't allowed to charge more to "register" him later. Or do you mean that it will cost you $50 to register him with the AKC? I believe that it is against AKC regulations to charge more money after the fact to register the dog. The litter should have been registered with AKC long before the pups went to a new home. Then the paperwork is given to you (or completed by the breeder) registering that particular pup under your name. 

Second, at only 26 weeks it is WAY too early to tell what his temperament in going to be like. He won't finish growing until he is over 2 years old. 
There are a TON of dogs with excellent pedigrees that are all of the things that you describe. They are also worked and titled to prove it. They are complimented not by people on the street (who, honestly, don't know crap about dogs) but by judges and experts in the breed. 

Pedigree is 100% essential. A dog is only as good as the worst dog in his pedigree when it comes time to breed. By that, I mean that the traits from that "bad" dog are in his genetic makeup and could be inherited by one of the pups in the litter. You need to know what type of temperament the rest of his family has as well. You say that he is smart, attentive, calm, friendly, etc. What if he is the only one in the entire litter that turned out that way? Without knowing his family, the rest of them could be buck-toothed, knobby-kneed, and dumb as a box of rocks.

It's pretty much discouraged that anyone breed if they aren't experienced in the GSD or at least have an experienced mentor to guide them through the process. This is true whether you spent $3000 on a pup from a good breeder or got him from a pet store. There are a lot of factors that go into play on the genetic side of breeding. It takes knowledge of not only your dog but his ancestors as well as the GSD standard AND knowledge of the pedigree of the dog you are breeding too.

You mentioned that they inspect each kennel by "AKC standards" at best that means there wasn't any blatant abuse or neglect bad enough for the kennel to lose the right to register with the AKC. As you can guess, that leaves the field pretty wide open on what you can get away with. In the end, no good breeder will sell their dogs to a pet store. Why? Because a good breeder cares what kind of home the puppies end up in. A pet store will sell a dog to whoever has cash.

In the end, no I wouldn't breed this dog. With a pet store background, it's highly unlikely that there is anything superb. If you might want to breed in the future, start learning now. Take this little guy and title him - obedience, rally, something. Learn the GSD standard and the history of the breed. Learn pedigrees and genetics. Learn how the traits you like are passed on and how to preserve them. Look at your dog honestly and learn what needs to be improved (no dog is perfect!). Then, when you are ready, go shopping for a dog that fits your criteria. Get a mentor and learn more about breeding. Title that dog and do all of the health testing and THEN start thinking about if he should be bred.

For the neutering, 6 months is what most vets recommend. I prefer to wait until 18 months or older so that the dog reaches his full growth before removing the hormones. Of course, you have to be 100% dedicated to making sure that he doesn't get out and start sowing his wild oats. All it takes is dedication and supervision. But, if you think that there is the tiniest possibility of an accident then you should have him neutered sooner.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The pedigree is important if you want to even come close to breeding him with a good female. The stud side of the breeding isn't as important because a single stud can pretty much be the one for a given area. You have to remember, 1/2 the genes are coming from the female, and just because your 6 month old has a great temperament, it doesn't mean he'll pass it on. Studding is not cloning, always remember that.

Most people will also look for AKC certified pedigrees in order to purchase pups. You won't have that, or at least I doubt your breeder is registered with the AKC or your store would've been advertising AKC certified pups and you'd have the pedigree already. You'll have a very hard time convincing a customer that your dogs are just as good as the ones next door that have AKC pedigrees.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Okay, I'm convinced to just leave it to the pros. Don't want to be a shady dog owner here 

And yes, I know all about puppy mills (my logic behind this purchase; let's just say he looked like he needed a good home), and just didn't know what "AKC standard inspection" means, or whether it gives any credibility. Seems not. 

Thanks for the responses. One last thing, do I even bother requesting the pedigree for that $50 - which I think is the fee to register with the breeder not AKC, load of ****? - or just go on my merry way with him?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

What type of pedigree is this "breeder" offering you? An AKC pedigree? In which case, he shouldn't even be charging, and you would only pay a fee to the AKC to register your dog under your name. Then the AKC would send YOU a pedigree directly. 
Or is he offering to register your dog with one of the other registries? Did he mention anything like "continental kennel club" or "national kennel club" registered? Keep in mind that there are other registries that are just made up so that puppy mill types can register their dogs there. If it isn't an official AKC pedigree sent to you from the AKC, it's not official and there is no actual proof that the parents are purebred and registered. In which case, don't bother giving any more of your money to this breeder, and enjoy your dog.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

How essential is the pedigree? *Very*
Recommend breeding just to keep these traits? *Lots of grown and proven GSD's with those traits already.*
When do the "real" traits come out? *Sometimes not until 3 or 4 years. Your pup is still way too young.*
Is this completely discouraged when you don't purchase from a highly reputable breeder, and have never bred yourself? *Probably a case by case thing. Every situation is different.

*Have you had a chance to look at this flow chart?












jeliya said:


> Thanks for the responses. One last thing, do I even bother requesting the pedigree for that $50 - which I think is the fee to register with the breeder not AKC, load of ****? - or just go on my merry way with him?


I wouldn't even bother. If it's not AKC or some other reputable registry, it's not worth spending the $50. If you got your pup from a pet store, chances are it's some bogus registration. Not saying he's not a purebred GSD, it's just not worth the money (the pedigree), but that's your decision


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad your not going to breed him..I don't think any animal purchased at a petstore should be bred just my opinion.

The pedigree AKC is offering, is the lineage of your dog. IF you want to know who is behind him, parents, grandparents etc, yes it's a good thing just to have for one's own personal info..


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

His pedigree is worthless because, as a puppymill dog, there's no way to know if he's really from the dogs on it. It's not like those people are reputable about keeping track of who was bred to who and which puppies came from them.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

If a person wants to breed, pedigree is VERY important to research the lines. It is possible that you just got very lucky and got a wonderful, healthy dog with a stellar temperament. But who knows what genetic issues lie behind him? Perhaps he has great hips, but parents and siblings, not so much. Perhaps he is healthy, but maybe lots of dogs from his lines died young of cancer or other horrifying diseases - not something you want to pass on in the bloodlines! 

People say, you don't breed the pedigree, you breed the dog - which means that no matter how great a pedigree the dog comes from, if you have a dog that is less than ideal in conformation, temperament, health, then you don't breed. 

The same goes the other way around. Many people have great dogs, but if there are lots of temperament and health issues in the pedigree, then you don't breed your perfect dog, as the risk of carrying forward all those issues are too great. That is why the pedigree is very important. 

For your pup, if you are curious, up to you to get a pedigree and get more info about him. But unless it is an AKC pedigree, there is no telling that the information you get is correct or accurate.

Everybody should feel that they won the lottery and got the best pup in the world! (I do!!) But that alone is not reason to breed - heck, I got my pup from a reputable breeder, has a great pedigree with great dogs behind him, OFA good hips, strong working ability, wonderful temperament (considering doing therapy work with him) - yet he is not breeding material for a number of reasons. It takes years of involvement in training and working with GSDs to understand just what balance of traits is needed to maintain and pass on the best of the GSD temperament.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I'm not an expert giving you advice, but I really don't think you should be concerned with breeding at this point. By all means get the pedigree to see what the genetics of the dog is.(the dogs papers should list the breeder to allow you to pursue the validity of the parentage if there is a concern). When your dog is an adult, you will have a much better idea of if it's breeding stock based on hips,elbows clearances and lack of any major faults. If he turns out to be a nice dog as you envision with these things done, I have been told by people that his compatibility with the dog chosen to mate him with is much more important than where he was brought from. I have also heard that you can get dogs with major shortcomings from any breeder, but obviously there are many important views on this. Don't give up, just let your dog grow up and get the papers and pedigree on the dog. Also, once you get that get info, get in touch with a person experienced and knowledgable about those lines and get an assessment of your dogs pedigree so that if you did endeavor to breed him it would be with a somewhat compatible dog. 
I'm of the mind that where he is from is not as important as his genetics and compatibility, but obviously I am in a minority on the board and maybe it's safer to heed the words of the many for getting the best advice. Good Luck!


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

To the OP: if I were going to listen to anyone on a pet forum as to whether or not to breed, I would listen to Cliff. 

I know of a pet store who used to get good dogs from "reputable" (whatever that means) breeders frequently. *I'm not saying your dog is or isn't a well-bred dog.* In all likelihood, his pedigree is probably not something that just can't be passed up for breeding, as most pet stores don't get top quality dogs in, but whoever said the traits don't get passed that well from the parents has obviously had far, far different dog experience than I have. Your dog might be a fluke, or he might come from a long line of really nice dogs and for whatever reason, ended up at a pet store. I'd be curious enough to get the papers and see what he is. What can it hurt? 

Regardless of breeding, I would NOT let a vet near him at 6mos. old. You are asking for joint trouble. There is very compelling evidence to suggest predisposition to a myriad of health problems if neutered early. I'm happy to supply links if need be. I just posted them on another thread about spaying. 

I will say, just to be contrary, :laugh:I got a very nice dog at a pet store; he was being sold on consignment because the husband brought him in to be sold when the wife was at work. Did this affect his genetics? I think not. He was the best! Crazy stories of nice dogs in crazy places are all over. Look at some of the dogs ending up in rescue lately. I don't know how someone from the internet can tell you that you're contributing to the overpopulation problem by breeding a dog they have never seen or what kind of quality your dog is or isn't. Unless their computers offer features mine doesn't have, I'd say they're guessing and assuming and are _probably_ right. But who knows? Get his papers and post back. You've got a long while to decide about breeding. Most dogs shouldn't be bred, really. Yours, in my eyes, doesn't have much more or less of a chance of being breedworthy than some of the pups people pay thousands for from some commercial pet breeder whose set-up is probably not that different from what the internet judges would call a "puppy mill" in all practicality. 

Glad you're enjoying your dog. He's lucky.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

vom Eisenherz said:


> :laugh:I got a very nice dog at a pet store; he was being sold on consignment because the husband brought him in to be sold when the wife was at work. Did this affect his genetics? I think not. He was the best!


Yeah, but did you BREED him?

Very nice dogs are found everywhere; from breeders, from rescue, from shelters, from pet stores. 

To the OP: You got lucky and got one of the good ones, which is amazing considering where he came from. But there are a LOT of things which, to put it simply, skip a generation in breeding. You don't know who your dog's parents are--they might be the ugliest, most ornery, unhealthiest dogs alive. Even though your dog, thankfully, got none of that, he could still pass it along. While reputable breeders wouldn't breed ugly, bad-tempered, unhealthy dogs, puppy mills will, because they will still make their money and don't have to stand by the quality of the pups they produce. 

I'm glad you decided not to breed him. Have him neutered when he's ready, and enjoy having the perfect dog. 

In breeding, the pedigree is the most important thing next to the dog himself. But as a pet owner, it means little. I wouldn't even bother getting the pedigree, especially if you have to pay extra for it. Chances are, there will not be well-known dogs that anyone knows or could trace, which IMO is the only reason a pet owner would need a pedigree. Sometimes a pedigree can give you clues about what to expect from your dog as he grows up, but only if the dogs in the pedigree are known by others in the GSD community.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Get the pedigree if you can.....you have just as might right to have as much knowledge about your dog as everybody else on this forum regardless of where you got the dog from!!!!!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I had the most incredible dog, Baer. Incredible temperament, health, no faults, social, loved to work. Traveled all over with me, ofa excellent, sch titled, koer'd all under SV judge. protection V under tough judging.

Did therapy work at Ronald McDonald House, was CGC and TT.

I did not breed him. Why? Because - just because a dog has "je ne sais quoi" does not mean you bred them.....-------> something intangible that you love about them and you want to have more (e.g. puppies).


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## dbrk9 (Aug 9, 2012)

Your dog looks beautiful, if that is him in your avatar. I could be wrong but I think most dogs at stud are accomplished in one way or another. I would get his papers and get with a trainer and see how he does in competitions. If you compete in AKC they can not be fixed! Then you can go from there. If he was purchased at a pet shop though, that is telling me that he is pet quality. And there are so many dogs, and in our area tons of GSD that need homes!

Also, breeding is very hard work if you are birthing and raising the puppies. You have to be with them 24/7 and ensure that they get good homes. It is draining because you can get so attached. We had a little dachshund that was show bred and got her but had to let the breeder get a litter out of her. She had four puppies and one died at birth  Then I will never forget how hard I cried when my husband met with the breeder and took the little male we wanted to keep along with a little female that was to get a home and he let the little male go instead. My daughter and I were devastated. We cried and cried. She had named him and everything...

If for personal reasons you would like to someday get a puppy from your lovely dog you could having him collected and stored before you neuter him. 

Well there are lot's of options but I would say enjoy him and love him every day and keep it your journey!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Get the pedigree if you can.....you have just as might right to have as much knowledge about your dog as everybody else on this forum regardless of where you got the dog from!!!!!


Of course everyone has the right to their dog's pedigree, if one exists, but in this case I think OP's money could be better spent. If the pedigree is even genuine (puppy mills fudge or outright fake them all the time), it probably won't have any names anyone would recognize. Some puppy mills have generation after generation of their own dogs, their own "line" if you will, so they are not dogs anyone in the GSD community would know anything about. 

If the AKC numbers are real, you could try to trace them back via the AKC (though I'm not sure how one does that) or Pedigree Database, if anyone has entered the numbers.

But if you're not breeding him, and he's just the most awesome pet alive, I just don't think it's worth $50 for a piece of paper that probably won't tell you much. If you do go ahead and order his pedigree, however, I'll be curious to know what it says. The ones I've seen in the past had puppy-mill names across the page, and no clue as to where the original breeding stock was from unless you were to do your own research way back.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

The registry they claim is "America's Pet Registry" which a quick google search directed me to plenty of pages claiming that it's a fudgy puppy mill reg. No use in that. They do provide the dame and sire's numbers, does anyone have a sample of an AKC registration number? These ones are, IE; E06-ZA-BI-33892T

Also did a little research on the breeder/mill (it's definite a mill; plenty of puppies and kitties named), and it had USDA reportable issues up until 2002. After 2002, nothing noted. No AKC sanctions against them, ever, but not sure if they even deal with AKC.

Now I'm really debating the usefulness of the pedigree. I seriously doubt they would give me any real information (genetics, decorations, diseases), so what's the point? I think he would enjoy $50 for his food and toys, rather than some paper, though he'd love to chew that too.

As far as neutering, I need to speak to the vet. He is already shy enough, I think that removing those hormones may well play against him. I think I should wait until he seems more confident before moving on that path, who knows how long?

Not that I am going to breed him, decidedly against that now... but this is his profile view - not stacked. His hind does not have a noticeable slope (correct word?), even when he is stacked. Maybe I was not doing it correctly, but his rear will be pretty much parallel to his shoulders. Anyone know if this is still considered pure GSD? I had someone tell me this is the Czech GSD style. Also other shots showing his front.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

jeliya- my dog is also from a puppy mill, and registered with the APRI. You may find a lot of useful information here: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/bloodlines-pedigrees/156223-tracing-pet-store-pup.html


[EDIT]- I also wanted to say that my dog has proved to be quite a nice dog. She has good drive, loves to work, has decent conformation (well, it's not great, but she's very balanced), has earned a few titles, has a phenomenal temperament, has ok nerve, has OFA good hips, and hasn't had any major health issues. But without the knowledge of her lineage, there's no chance I would breed her (she's spayed anyhow). How would I know what I was passing on?

I know you have already decided not to breed your dog. My point is that just because you have a puppy mill dog, there is no reason you can't work your dog, earn those titles, prove your dog's worthiness, and just have fun! Enjoy your dog!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

jeliya said:


> Now I'm really debating the usefulness of the pedigree. I seriously doubt they would give me any real information (genetics, decorations, diseases), so what's the point? I think he would enjoy $50 for his food and toys, rather than some paper, though he'd love to chew that too.


That was exactly my point. Since he's registered with a bogus registry, you probably won't get any useful information from it... if it were at least AKC, you could trace the AKC numbers and possibly find out OFA information, etc.



> As far as neutering, I need to speak to the vet. He is already shy enough, I think that removing those hormones may well play against him. I think I should wait until he seems more confident before moving on that path, who knows how long?


I am not convinced that leaving a dog intact will increase his confidence. I have seen many shy, fearful, nervous dogs that were intact. In fact, I used to groom a toy poodle, an intact male, who was chronically thin, nervous, and shy. His owner had him neutered at 6 years of age, and the dog actually calmed down, and finally got some decent weight. His owner remarked that his nervous behavior had all but ceased. He was much easier to groom, too. I have seen enough dogs that got calmer and easier to manage once neutered, that I have come to the conclusion that testosterone does not solve temperament issues.

Also, you know that shy temperament is heritable, right? Yet another reason you can be secure in your decision not to breed. He would likely pass the shyness on to his offspring.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is no hurry to neuter. The hormones will probably not help shyness, I haven't really heard that in increases shy behavior, but whatever. But the hormones do play a part in how the dog matures structurally, and they can reduce the risk of some types of cancer. 

The problem is, that when people leave the dog reach its potential, the dog is more mature, and sometimes people forget that they resolved not to breed the dog. Your dog cannot be registered through a reputable registry. So he should not be bred, ever. If you want to switch your focus to performance and getting titles, once you neuter your dog, you can get a PAL number on him through the AKC and enter him in shows. 

Trust me that that can be a whole lot of fun and will make you very proud of your boy and all the work you will put into it. 

Good luck.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> There is no hurry to neuter. The hormones will probably not help shyness, I haven't really heard that in increases shy behavior, but whatever.


I don't think the hormones *increase* shy behavior, but what I've noticed about intact males is that they have more of an "edge" to them. And a shy, nervous dog with an "edge" is not a good thing.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I don't think the hormones *increase* shy behavior, but what I've noticed about intact males is that they have more of an "edge" to them. And a shy, nervous dog with an "edge" is not a good thing.


My dog was like this until recently. His teenager years were horrible. He probably should have been neutered. I didn't neuter him because I was a lot more anti-neuter a year ago than I am now, and there were some medical issues going on then too. Now I am more open to seeing the benefits in individual cases and why it might actually be necessary. If I have another dog who has the same issues I would definitely consider getting him booked for surgery.

I don't think a neuter will affect shy behavior. Leaving him intact, as Freestep said, MAY increase the level of "edge" he has, which can contribute to behavioral issues. I notice mine has more of that (he's not as shy anymore, still has the intact male edge).

Talk with your vet. He may have some input for you concerning this.


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