# Can puppies be depressed?



## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So first let me say sorry about all the threads. Since i've gotten my puppy i've been posting a lot. Some times the questions may be similar. But anyway my puppy is acting a little strange. I think I'm gonna give training a rest for a few days. When I get home from work, he is in his cage sitting up and he sees me and doesn't even make a peep. He usually is dying to get out his crate. Crying and whining. And my wife sais he doesn't want to walk at all on the leash anymore. He was also doing that with me the past couple of days. I literally have to carry him to the grassy area for him to go potty. And usually I run away from him and he'll run to get to me after I get like 20-30 ft from him. But today he just slowly walked to me. I know he probably misses home. How long does it usually take for your puppy to get used to you. We've had him since Thursday I know that's not a long time. It just seems like he's acting too different I guess. And do they ever go through a depressing stage when you bring them home.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Get him to a vet. That isn't normal.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree, I would have a vet exam


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Third recommendation for a vet visit, just in case. Puppies are not exactly prone to "depression", they should be happy and curious and eager to bond even if they "miss home".

Good luck, keep us updated!


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## ZoeD1217 (Feb 7, 2014)

Poor pup  I'd take him to the vet. 

My puppy cried a bit her first few days but she was always following us everywhere and full of energy between puppy naps. 

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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

I have to echo that too. Get to a vet ASAP.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Vet, depression -- lethargy is not a good sign for a young puppy.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Without any disrespect I would certainly like to ask a couple of questions that were not mentioned ..

How old is the puppy --? what shots has the puppy had --? what do the stools look like --? how much time is the puppy spending in the crate during the day --? how much water is the puppy drinking during the day in the crate and is the puppy being let out to use the restroom --? what is the normal activity level in the first 72 hours --?

I think most of the members know what's going on here.. I hope that I'm wrong -- get the puppy checked out by veterinarian as soon as possible .


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

We here at the vet now.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

sehrgutcsg said:


> Without any disrespect I would certainly like to ask a couple of questions that were not mentioned ..
> 
> How old is the puppy --? what shots has the puppy had --? what do the stools look like --? how much time is the puppy spending in the crate during the day --? how much water is the puppy drinking during the day in the crate and is the puppy being let out to use the restroom --? what is the normal activity level in the first 72 hours --?
> 
> I think most of the members know what's going on here.. I hope that I'm wrong -- get the puppy checked out by veterinarian as soon as possible .


9 weeks. Can't think of them off the top of my head. His last stool was black and dry. Usually it is green and moist. He is taken out of the crate atleast every 3 hours for bathroom breaks. He Is played with a lot as well. He drinks quite a bit of water actually. Until today he was following us everywhere. Playing a little bit of tug. Most of the time hw was lazy and just sitting down holding it in his mouth. Crying and whining to get out the crate. Today he saw me while he was in his crate and didn't even make a peep. He just layed there. And usually he bolts out the door when I open it. But I opened his door today and just layed there


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

please let us know how he makes out, keeping fingers crossed he's ok..


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

If it is actually black and tar-like that is indication of bleeding in the upper intestines.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> please let us know how he makes out, keeping fingers crossed he's ok..


Thanks. And I will. We are getting parvo tests done on him now. The vet sais she really doubtIt is parvo.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

make sure they do a fecal as well..


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

He also had exrays which came back clear and his white blood cells are elevated.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> make sure they do a fecal as well..


Yes they will be doing that as well


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I was going to say vet but you are there so kudos! For being awesome. 

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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Good call, I hope that it is nothing serious.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Praying!!!!!

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## lafalce (Jan 16, 2001)

nktigger99 said:


> Praying!!!!!
> 
> 
> Same here. Poor baby. Good luck.


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## TAR HEEL MOM (Mar 22, 2013)

Black stools can also be a sign of hookworm (bleeding intestinally). Please update us.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

well, darn....so sorry that your puppy isn't feeling well. Zooming positive thoughts for him. The breeder is informed? All other pups are ok?


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So after running all the test the vet still doesn't know what's the problem. They gave him a few antibiotics and some fluids and said if he isn't better in 12 hours to bring him to the emergency room. Parvo came back negative. I don't know what it could be. It makes us really bsad to see him like this. Thanks for the prayers everyone. We really appreciate it and both my wife and I know that prayer works.


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

Well I can honestly say. I'm glad to hear that coming back negative for Parvo, being discharged from the hospital are all good signs, you got there to the vets office in time, took care of it and it should be a happy ending..


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

Woke up this morning and it seems like he is now struggling to walk.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

So sorry to hear your puppy isn't doing well. Did you contact the breeder to see if he has any ideas?


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

What are you feeding him, may I ask?


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

Sri said:


> So sorry to hear your puppy isn't doing well. Did you contact the breeder to see if he has any ideas?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No not yet. I will give him a call today. He Is being bfed TOTW wetland


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would get him to the doggie ER NOW (or at the very least call them and see if they think it can wait until the vet is open; I have done that when I have not been so sure). Usually after 8am things are different in terms of getting in (they want you to go to the regular vet first, at least that is with the two I have dealt with). It is more expensive but my experience has been you get the cream of the crop specialists at these places. 

So sorry this is going on.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also would be getting him to the doggie er ASAP....Did they xray??? Maybe he's got a blockage? Instusseception(sp)????? 

Hoping they can figure out what's going on.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Ugh...you of all people, you are so diligent and were asking all the right questions before getting the pup. Hang in there, lots of good energy your and your pups way.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I also would be getting him to the doggie er ASAP....Did they xray??? Maybe he's got a blockage? Instusseception(sp)?????
> 
> Hoping they can figure out what's going on.


Yes they did do an xray. They couldn't see anything. My wife and I are both at work right now. I can't leav for sure. So my wife is trying to find out if she can.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm so sorry that your puppy isn't well! And how awful that your vet's already seen him and doesn't have a clue what's wrong. I know how worried and upset you must be, and I'm praying for him too. Hugs and good thoughts to all of you!


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

We fell asleep with him on the floor last night. Set an alarm but we were so tired it didn't wake us. He had two accidents. Not surr if that's bad or not because atleast he got up and walked to the floor. My wife said before she left he didn't want to move at all. His back legs seem to be causing be him pain. Not completely sure tho.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sorry missed the xray thing.. high white blood cell can indicate infection, I also agree with the dark/black tarry stool can indicate old blood..

It's really frustrating when our dogs get sick and they can't figure out what the heck it is I hope you can get some answers today..

Not sure a puppy this young can contract tick disease, but I guess it's possible as well..


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

Which us better er room or vets office.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would go to your personal vet first, and go from there..But I would tell them its an ER..


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Has your pup had any vomiting, loss stools running noise or anything?

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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Oh, yes if your vet is open there first. The ER probably would not see you. But DO impress on them what is going. 

But CALL . Sometimes desk staff don't grasp the seriousness of a situation. Sometimes the vets are doing surgery in the am. and can't see patients.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

nktigger99 said:


> Has your pup had any vomiting, loss stools running noise or anything?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No he hasn't. The doctors are saying they don't know what it could be. His symptoms are so vague.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

His temperature wqs also normal as well. They did it through his bottom. He didn't even move when they put it in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm so sorry. I hope the vet can pinpoint what is going on. Is there a university vet hospital nearby for consult?


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I'm so sorry. I hope the vet can pinpoint what is going on. Is there a university vet hospital nearby for consult?


I have no idea. Im here in NJ and only been here for 8 months. I can ask the vet


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

When did he last have vaccines? How long after vaccines did he start acting depressed. Vets wont look for reaction to vaccines.Since u dont remember what he had , vaccines, ask ur vet or check paperwork they give you (your vaccine records that u keep)Also call the breeder, there might be other puppies with the same symptoms and he could help you.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So im preety sure something is wrong with his legs. I'll post a video to my Facebook page. If you guys can look at it and tell me what you think. Idk how to post videos on here without uploasding them to YouTube first which take forever.

Pj jean-Batiste


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

hod?


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

The video is posted. If you guys can comment back on the forum I would appreciate itm do you thibk it could be HD?


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Have you contacted the breeder??

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

no not hd but possibly hod

Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy | AKC Canine Health Foundation

get the puppy to the vet at once


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Maybe its just me, but I dont see a video or link to a video. 

HD would show up on an xray, so I dont think so
Is he trembling or panting (showing signs of pain) ?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

If you go to facebook and search the name he gave, you can see the video. Really favoring that leg.

Pj jean-Batiste is the search term.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If he was perfectly fine when you picked him up at the breeder I wonder if he injured himself somehow, it looks like he is limping in the video...his expression does look like he is in pain.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=717828651594705&set=vb.100001027312117&type=2&theater


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

can someone please post the link here?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=717828651594705&set=vb.100001027312117&type=2&theater


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That puppy is in pain. Not sure where you are in NJ.

Penn State has a hospital and so does Cornell. Can your vet get on the phone with either of these?


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

What a cute little guy. I would try another vet. Did the vet xray his back legs? He didnt advice to rest the dog, no pain pills?? nothing? The puppy is obviously in pain. The reason why we dont think its HD is because you said you have had an xray done and HD would show up. Although if its in a puppy this young its bad HD. I hope the experienced people show up this morning to see video and help you out, but Id check with another vet because I dont see how a vet is checking for parvo when this dog is obviously limping.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

HD would not show up in x-ray unless the hips were actually x-rayed, I think they did an x-ray for a blockage, not to look at the hips? Did the limping start after the vet visit? I wonder if he got caught up in his crate or something


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

nktigger99 said:


> Have you contacted the breeder??
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


He sais none of his other puppies are having any sort of problems.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Airman1stclass said:


> He sais none of his other puppies are having any sort of problems.


I don't know that I would completely trust this breeder to tell you the truth if there is a problem with the other puppies, I just get a bad feeling about him especially when he told you that your puppy should be spending 80% of it's time in a crate.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> HD would not show up in x-ray unless the hips were actually x-rayed, I think they did an x-ray for a blockage, not to look at the hips? Did the limping start after the vet visit? I wonder if he got caught up in his crate or something


What kind of vet does an xray for blockage when the dog is limping? That would be my first question to this vet. If the limping started after the vet visit then this is not the only problem the OP has with this puppy.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The poop was black, thus the reason for the blockage possibility.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

Msmaria said:


> What kind of vet does an xray for blockage when the dog is limping? That would be my first question to this vet. If the limping started after the vet visit then this is not the only problem the OP has with this puppy.


The puppy started limping after the vet visit. He wasn't walking when we brought him. We had to carry him.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> I don't know that I would completely trust this breeder to tell you the truth if there is a problem with the other puppies, I just get a bad feeling about him especially when he told you that your puppy should be spending 80% of it's time in a crate.


He actually got really defensive when I tokd him what was going on.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Then I guess its a visit back to the vet for the OP to xray the dogs hips and legs. Poor little guy.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

he smells a puppy lemon law case probably
either way you need to get this puppy to the vet
is it just the one leg or is he limping on both backs or all 4??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

how long have you had the pup for? Was there a vet visit within a couple days of taking him from the breeder? Was he shipped or did you pick him up? Sorry for all the questions.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> how long have you had the pup for? Was there a vet visit within a couple days of taking him from the breeder? Was he shipped or did you pick him up? Sorry for all the questions.


Since Thursday afternoon. Yes we had a visit Saturday. Everything came up clear. We picked him up. Idk what could have happen. He wasn't dropped he is always carried down the stairs. Idk what we could have done for his legs to be in pain. We believe its both his back legs.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I watched the video, there is something definitely going on with atleast one rear leg, maybe he dislocated his hip? 

I would get a hip/leg xray of that rear leg if not both..

My aussie dislocated her hip a couple years ago, and her leg 'hung" just like the one in the video.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Poor baby . 

I hope its a minor injury and something that can be healed soon. Praying for him 

Just to let you know, I was trying to remember how our puppy was the first few weeks after we got him. He was very lethargic and slept most of the time. i was really worried, but everything else was normal(food, poop, urine, etc.) He did have some parasites though which cleared up with meds fairly quickly. But the sleeping continued and I believe thats just how he was. He was growing a lot and needed that sleep. We couldnt really play more than a few minutes in the first weeks with him. It wasn't until almost 9 months that he gave up his long day naps. I would take him to training and he would lie down and fall asleep. But he was a calm and happy pup when he was awake.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I watched the video, there is something definitely going on with atleast one rear leg, maybe he dislocated his hip?
> 
> I would get a hip/leg xray of that rear leg if not both..
> 
> My aussie dislocated her hip a couple years ago, and her leg 'hung" just like the one in the video.


Did it need surgery or can they just pop it back in. Not sure if this is what's wrong with our guy or not.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no surgery, when we put her on the table for xray, because we weren't sure what she had done, it popped back in.. (Mine did it racing thru the kitchen, hit linoleum and slid into center island.)


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

*Update on our boy*

He has been diagnosed with Panosteitis. He was xray again and the doctor sais since he is so young its really hard to tell what may actually be the problem. They gave us some inflimation meds to give to him orally for the next few days and if that doesn't work we are going to see a specialist. Right now he is more alert an active it's just he doesn't want to walk. He'll mouth your hand like a puppy and he'll chew on covers but his back right leg is definitely in pain. Only thing is he showed ni signs of pain when the vet was touching his right leg. But we're praying he gets better. Thanks everyone for the prayers. Please continue to send them. We want our boy to be outside playing and not just laying around the house.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would keep a real close eye on him..I have had dogs with pano, some severe, but have never had it in a puppy that young..

With pano, and your vet may have explained this to you, it can go from one leg to the other, to another..It's usually not just "one" leg (altho one leg at a time can be affected, make sense? 

It's good he has no fever, it's good he's feeling a little better, the meds may mask the issue..

I'm glad your on top of it, and yes, I would suggest if you don't see improvement or you see him declining in the next few days, I'd go to a specialist..

Still throwing good vibes out there for him!


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would keep a real close eye on him..I have had dogs with pano, some severe, but have never had it in a puppy that young..
> 
> With pano, and your vet may have explained this to you, it can go from one leg to the other, to another..It's usually not just "one" leg (altho one leg at a time can be affected, make sense?
> 
> ...


Yeah we are keeping really closr eyes on him. Were actually sleeping on the floor with him now. Hopefully this will help in us bonding as well. Thanks.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> the doctor sais since he is so young its really hard to tell what may actually be the problem.


I don't believe it is Pano....I've never heard of it happening in such a young puppy and it doesn't affect the whole rear end like that. 
I think Diane is right, specialist or university would be my move. I wouldn't be waiting...those meds are going to mask his pain, but won't 'heal' his problem.
Because the vet doesn't really know what is going on, I think he's using Pano as an excuse. Though, I hope I'm wrong and your vet is correct! Pano is temporary.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Is the pup having any issue with going to the bathroom??

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

get a second opinion and or see a specialist because as diane said
pano moves around and doesnt affect both legs at once
it isnt usually seen in puppies that young
and even when they have pano the pups usually move around
in fact our gsd with pano ran all over but only limped when he would slow down to come inside


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

nktigger99 said:


> Is the pup having any issue with going to the bathroom??
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The puppy isn't having any issue witg the bathroom. Unfortunately we have to carry him everywhere including to go the bathroom. He just stands there and pivots on his left hind leg. He took a few steps today. He's trying to walk but you can tell it hurts.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't believe it is Pano....I've never heard of it happening in such a young puppy and it doesn't affect the whole rear end like that.
> I think Diane is right, specialist or university would be my move. I wouldn't be waiting...those meds are going to mask his pain, but won't 'heal' his problem.
> Because the vet doesn't really know what is going on, I think he's using Pano as an excuse. Though, I hope I'm wrong and your vet is correct! Pano is temporary.



Agree. Take the dog to the vet. Guessing is not going to get u anywhere. The dog needs an xray.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Good luck,

I'm a firm believer in second opinions.


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## Jakesworld (Mar 4, 2014)

Sorry your pup's an unhappy camper. Whether it's pano or something else, I hope you find out soon. But I have another question. You said his stools are normally green and soft. Has he been checked for Giardia? It too can cause "out of sorts" behavior.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I also would highly question the pano diagnoses. Not saying this is the case with you but there are vets out there that are completely incompetent. Get a second opinion. Your pup seems way way way too young for pano. 

When my pup had pano he would whine at night from the pain and limp severely around the house but if I threw his ball outside he ran after it full speed with no limp like nothing was wrong. His drive and adrenaline kicked in to block out the pain. If your pup has trouble just moving around then it might be more than just pain, it could be structural damage.


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## Jakesworld (Mar 4, 2014)

Have to agree with BoomerII, there are a lot of incompetent vets out there. Just found a new vet , really like him, wonderful bedside manner. Took my boy in for possible tendon, ligament injury, after exam and X-rays, positively ruled out pano. Diagnosed it as a bone bruise. Well here we are a month later...Jake with pano. Fortunately a very mild case. I think I would be looking for a good specialist with so many questions unanswered.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Poor pup, I'm sorry he's not feeling well.

I think a second opinion is in order as well. Sooner the better. Young pups like that don't have a lot of reserves.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

Msmaria said:


> Agree. Take the dog to the vet. Guessing is not going to get u anywhere. The dog needs an xray.


He's been to the vet more than once and had x-rays taken.

OP- I hope your pup gets better soon! Sorry I don't have anything more helpful to add, just well wishes and good thoughts


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

I guess I would have to ask one very simple question the puppy was put on a stainless steel table to be looked at by the veterinarian -- were you in the room -- is there any chance the puppy slipped on the table and fell ? That would be the only thing I would want to know, because it seems to me this puppy hurt it's leg. I am no expert on pano.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

obviously the dog has worsened since the x rays and the x rays were of its abdomen to rule out a blockage
not of its legs

an x ray could rule out or rule in pano, but also HOD which could cause the puppy to be so painful
another thing is it could have injured itself somehow but not sure because op seems confident it isnt that

but one thing is for sure
this puppy is in a lot of pain and needs to be looked at by another vet or a specialist even


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So we will most likely be taking our pup to the specialist tomorrow. Its most likely going to be a really expensive bill. We are looking to get insurance. Do you guys know of any pet insurance that covers pre existing conditions?


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

no
but look at care credit


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Airman1stclass said:


> So we will most likely be taking our pup to the specialist tomorrow. Its most likely going to be a really expensive bill. We are looking to get insurance. Do you guys know of any pet insurance that covers pre existing conditions?


That is tough i think you will be hard pressed to find one, i hope all goes well at the specialist,


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## DellaWrangler (Feb 24, 2014)

Look at PetPlan and Trupanion. Better yet, call them and confirm that they'll cover his condition. Either way, there's a 30 to 45 day (I think) waiting period, before the insurance kicks in, so it might not be much help for the specialist visit, but could help you with follow-up costs. Best of luck!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you register your dog with the AKC, you have so many days to sign up for the insurance plan, but you are supposedly covered. I might consider that.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't have any input because you are already doing everything I would have done. I would definitely be headed to a specialist for a second opinion. I hope you get some more definitive news. Keep us posted.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

None cover pre-existing conditions.

Most have a time period that you have to pass before they will cover. I had 2 weeks before Healthy Paws kicked in for Seger.

Apply for Care Credit. Make SURE the vet accepts it. They have several "programs". One is a start 14% interest for whatever time period you choose. The other is pay it back in 6 mths or the whole thing is about 30% interest.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So I just realized that the second or third day we got Meiko he fell off the couch while laying on me. He tried to get off and lost his footing I guess. Only thing is I don't remember how he landed. Also this happened like the second or third day I had him. Which was Friday or Saturday. We brought him to the vet Monday when we noticed he was being lethargic. Could it take a couple days for symptoms to show up?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If he hurt his back, then it can take a couple of days for the symptoms to worsen to the point where you are seeing them. But GSD puppies aren't made out of glass. If that puppy hurt himself bad he would have yelped. They will cry like babies if they are hurt. Some of them anyway. 

I doubt that slipping off the couch would have done this, unless he immediately made some response about it. Certainly significant enough for you to remember it the next day when he was acting lethargic. 

On the other hand, if he did hurt is back, where a disk started pushing on his spinal cord, which can cause one or both back legs to show signs of limping or total lameness, one of the common responses in doggy behavior is to go to his safe spot and not want to come out. 

Spinal injuries will take a while because the spinal column will swell and put pressure on a disk and the disk will then push on the chord. But anti-inflammatories should help this. And x-ray should show if a disk space is narrowed or pressing in on the spinal chord -- I think. 

I haven't heard of a dog this young having a disk problem, but I expect it can happen at any time.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So we are looking at veterinary specialty and emergency center (VSEC) in Levittown, Pa. Has anyone here used their specialist before?


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

selzer said:


> If he hurt his back, then it can take a couple of days for the symptoms to worsen to the point where you are seeing them. But GSD puppies aren't made out of glass. If that puppy hurt himself bad he would have yelped. They will cry like babies if they are hurt. Some of them anyway.
> 
> I doubt that slipping off the couch would have done this, unless he immediately made some response about it. Certainly significant enough for you to remember it the next day when he was acting lethargic.
> 
> ...


He didn't yelp or anything. Atleast not that I could remember.


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## ApselBear (Feb 10, 2014)

Airman1stclass said:


> He didn't yelp or anything. Atleast not that I could remember.


Even without a yelp, it could be some swelling as Selz mentioned. If the original xrays were focused on finding an intestinal blockage to determine cause of lethargy, since the limp was after the original vet visit, a spinal injury could be easily missed and you should include this drop incident when speaking with any future specialist visits so they know to maybe look for more of a spinal/hip injury.

My thoughts are you know he was dropped, however minor it might have been, so its not a bad idea to completely focus on that first and then move on to illness such as pano. JMO though


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pano is diagnosed definitely by x-ray. It is supposed be dark patches on the long bones. It should not be a mistake, if they took x-rays and showed you dark patches on the long bones. 

The thing is, pano is usually caused by rapid growth. Usually male puppies. The membrane on the long bones becomes inflamed and it causes pain. Baby puppies like this one, haven't usually had a big enough growth spurt to have pano. 

It doesn't really follow pano. 

If it is pano, Albon a wormer has been used to some effect with pano dogs. 

But I don't know. Did the vet show you dark patches on the long bones on x-ray?


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your pup's mysterious symptoms. You have been so excited about getting a puppy and it seems too soon to be dealing with health issues. I hope the anti-inflammatory meds are helping now. Will you be seeing an orthopedic vet? As much as I like our regular vet, she was not too helpful when our dog started limping, the ortho vet was the way to go. We are dealing with lingering limping and slow healing knee inflammation in our dog.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

selzer said:


> Pano is diagnosed definitely by x-ray. It is supposed be dark patches on the long bones. It should not be a mistake, if they took x-rays and showed you dark patches on the long bones.
> 
> The thing is, pano is usually caused by rapid growth. Usually male puppies. The membrane on the long bones becomes inflamed and it causes pain. Baby puppies like this one, haven't usually had a big enough growth spurt to have pano.
> 
> ...


No she didn't show us any black spots. When showed the xray of his legs she kept saying how he Is so young and it is really hard to tell because his bones are still developing and she is not that experienced with xraying really young puppies.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would mention the falling off the sofa to the vet, I think a spinal xray is in order

The xrays showing pano, would show 'cloudiness' along the long bone, as sue mentioned..unless the vet pointed it out, you may not even recognize it.

Unfortunately, I still don't think a puppy that young would have pano...he may have twisted wrong,,has a slip/bulging disc? from the fall..and yeah it may take a couple days to really kick in with pain/inflammation..


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if it is one leg as it appears in the vid then it could easily be from having fallen off the couch
definitely ask the vet
i thought white cells were elevated the first time you brought him to the vet?


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> if it is one leg as it appears in the vid then it could easily be from having fallen off the couch
> definitely ask the vet
> i thought white cells were elevated the first time you brought him to the vet?


Yes the white cells were elvated the first time we brought him. He was given antibiotics and meds for inflammation. At that time he wasn't walking or doing anything really. He was just laying on the floor being really lethargic. A day later he started trying to walk like in the video but was limping badly on his right leg. Today he is still doing the samething. The vet recommend me to an orthopedic specialist. We've scheduleld an appointment for Monday.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the elevated blood cell count may be due to the injury....body's way of protecting itself. When you run your hands over his body, are there any places that feel hot? Too bad you have to wait until Monday...that is too long for a baby puppy to suffer. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

it could be his spine
if it is spinal and there is muscle spasm
it would hurt to walk
i agree
if you can get him in sooner *anywhere* it could be the different between a permanent injury and a minor inconvenience


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> the elevated blood cell count may be due to the injury....body's way of protecting itself. When you run your hands over his body, are there any places that feel hot? Too bad you have to wait until Monday...that is too long for a baby puppy to suffer. I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.


I don't really notice any part of him feeling hot. He didn't cry when the vet was trying to see if it would hurt by her applying pressure up and down his leg. She even tried both sides. He didn't seem to be in any pain.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> it could be his spine
> if it is spinal and there is muscle spasm
> it would hurt to walk
> i agree
> if you can get him in sooner *anywhere* it could be the different between a permanent injury and a minor inconvenience


I tried calling the university of penn and they told me to call back tomorrow morning. Monday bis the soonest the other two orthopedic specialist could see me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It may not be the legs that are causing the issue, but the spine/back. If the vet took xrays, is there a way to see if the spine shows anything abnormal or inflamed? And if the vet wasn't focusing on that area, but the abdomen, she may have missed something..if you are local to your vet you should ask to take photo's of the xrays, put them on a lightbox there and snap away.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> It may not be the legs that are causing the issue, but the spine/back. If the vet took xrays, is there a way to see if the spine shows anything abnormal or inflamed? And if the vet wasn't focusing on that area, but the abdomen, she may have missed something..if you are local to your vet you should ask to take photo's of the xrays, put them on a lightbox there and snap away.


I have dvds of the xrays that were taken. Wish I could upload them on here for you guys but I have no cpu right now.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

If the vet admitted she wasn't that experienced in xraying puppies, methinks, I'd either consult with another vet in the practice, or head for a specialist who can probably read those xrays better than a vet.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

any ol vet ought to be able to diagnose a back injury vs a leg injury
i am sorry but a simple exam ought to show that
bring along the x rays just in case 

op can you find a different vet tonight or tomorrow??


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I've had friends who's dogs were xrayed by vets who said one thing, then taken those same xrays to an ortho surgeon who has picked up something totally different than what the vet "thought"..so some vets may be able to see something, but again, a specialist may see 'more'


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> any ol vet ought to be able to diagnose a back injury vs a leg injury
> i am sorry but a simple exam ought to show that
> bring along the x rays just in case
> 
> op can you find a different vet tonight or tomorrow??


Im pretty sure I can find another one tomorrow. A good friend I work with grandad owns a veterinary clinic.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A vet might not be experienced with x-raying baby-puppies. 

I am thinking injury. 

Is the dog stable, better, worse, neither better nor worse? 

Ok, New Jersey fans, do we have a 24 hour clinic within driving distance -- 1-3 hours? ERs suck sometimes. At least here they do. They have high turn-over rate and the vets in them do not necessarily have any expertise, you pretty much get whatever you draw -- the lottery, the lab is not necessarily good, nor can the do the more extensive testing that requires specialists. 

A 24 hour clinic is different. At least here it is. It is a facility that has a number of veterinary specialists, a sufficient lab, ultra-sound and x-ray and possibly MRI equipment. When you call you tell them what you are bringing in and when you will be there, and they may have a regular evening/night vet look the dog over, but if they feel it warranted, they will call their specialist in, and they will take care of the dog. 

It beats waiting until monday. 

If this dog has a bulging disk, meds can relieve the pressure and possibly get the dog back on track. If that disk ruptures, you are looking at back surgery and possible paralysis. I hate to scare people, go with your gut. If you think this dog needs to go to someone who can figure out what it needs, to a vet with the added information about the fall, then consider a 24 hour clinic. 

There is one in Ohio that I would recommend, but I think our people in the NE might be able to come up with one closer.

Good luck.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i am also concerned about a disk injury
if it was my puppy i would not settle for a vet saying 
Well I'm not good with xraying puppies
i know you are a new dog owner and that is taken into consideration 
but you have a whole board telling you we believe the vets diagnosis is wrong and this is years of experience talking
perhaps it is a bizarre case of pano but my gut is telling me otherwise after seeing that vid


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> i am also concerned about a disk injury
> if it was my puppy i would not settle for a vet saying
> Well I'm not good with xraying puppies
> i know you are a new dog owner and that is taken into consideration
> ...


We are going to see a specialist. I am trying to see if we can go in tomorrow instead of having to wait until Monday.


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## nktigger99 (Aug 22, 2006)

Any updates???

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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

nktigger99 said:


> Any updates???
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


As for his leg. It still has not gotten any better. He is definitely being more active and alert. He is actually playing with his chew tow right now. We called the university of penn and they can't make an appoinment until Tuesday and the latest they have appointments ia 12:00. I couldn't make that even if I wanted to.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So our boy is walking today. Unfortunately he still has a limp but atleast he is walking. I posted some more videos on FB for you guys to check out. My name is PJ Jean-Batiste. We are still going to take him to the orthopedic specialist Monday. But we are happy to see him walking. Hopefully the specialist can tell us what is wrong and be able to fix the problem.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad he's walking better and acting more alert..yes I'd still keep that monday appt just 'cause'...Hope they can get a better handle on what is or was going on!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ABSOLUTELY. Even if he is 100%, take those videos with you! 

It is good to see him moving a lot better but you need some guidance moving forward! And you need to know what was causing it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

good idea nancy! Take the videos with you!!!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm glad you're still taking him in. I hope the orthopedic specialist can get him on the mend really soon!

He is a really cute little guy!


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> ABSOLUTELY. Even if he is 100%, take those videos with you!
> 
> It is good to see him moving a lot better but you need some guidance moving forward! And you need to know what was causing it.


Yes of course because like some one mentioned. His meds could be masking his pain. But my wife and were very excited to see him walking again.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Poor little guy. I sure hope he recovers!


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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

I was thinking about your puppy. Though he does not fit the profile (small breed dogs 5-8 months of age), ask the vet if there is Legg-Calvé-Perthes Disease. Not sure if your vet who admits not being an expert in x-raying little ones looked for that. It's not just frank dislocation of hips, it has to do with the femoral head itself. The symptoms sound right though the dog profile is not. The sheltie folk battle this. The sheltie folk also have had good results with dog chiropractic if it is a disc issue. Many have adjustments periodically, if that is what his diagnosis is.

I am glad to hear the pup walking, I hope there is full recovery quickly. Maybe he caught a limb in the crate while you all were at work and it is healing. My bog caught his leg in the crate but I was right there to free him. Last time he was crated without having a soft crate inside the wire crate too, but he was really good crated. 

You have my thoughts until this is resolved and you are able to enjoy your puppy fully.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

So I was just wondering. Like I said before the vet has taken xrays of our pup already and couldn't really tell what was wrong. Im guessing we need a more hi-tech xray to actually find out what's wrong if anything is still wrong for that matter. He has been doing better. You can't even tell something was wrong with him. He seems to be perfectly fine now. We still have the appoibtment with the orthopedic specialist. Would anyone know what type of xray would need to be done to diagnose him? Like a cat scan or MRI. And what price should I be looking at paying for? I was just told that when seeing a an orthopedic the price could easily get too $1000. That does seem pretty high just for an xray. Is this normal?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I would take the xrays your vet took with you, (along with your videos)..I think I said previously, sometime an ortho surgeon will see something on a vet xray that the vet may not have picked up on, with that, he may not need to re xray..

I'm sure it depends on the ortho how they wish to proceed and pricing can be different again, depending on the surgeon


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would take the xrays your vet took with you, (along with your videos)..I think I said previously, sometime an ortho surgeon will see something on a vet xray that the vet may not have picked up on, with that, he may not need to re xray..
> 
> I'm sure it depends on the ortho how they wish to proceed and pricing can be different again, depending on the surgeon


Ok. Yeah we were planning on bring them. Hopefully he'll be able to use the ones we already have.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I forgot to add, I doubt xrays if the ortho does them, would hit the 1000 mark, mostly orthos are more expensive for surgeries/mri's, specialty stuff vs the regular things like an xray..


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Best wishes for a clean and simple outcome tomorrow, Airman.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

*Great news!*

Meiko is ok. Orthopedic surgeon sais he doesn't believe its panostietis. And that he should he fine. He also said Meiko would be his youngest case of it if it were but as of now he doesn't believe Meiko has it. He just said if he ever starts limping again to do new xrays but other than that he is ok. Thangs again every one for the thoughts and prayers.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Is the limp gone now? Sounds like good news!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

this sounds GOOD! tho I hate these mystery illnesses


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Is the limp gone now? Sounds like good news!


Yes it is. The limp has been gone for a few days actually. Since Saturday I believe.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Yay! Glad it appears to be resolved!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Next time vaccines are given, if something odd happens, make sure you document it to your vet. Not saying his vaccines caused his issue, just something to be aware of.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Next time vaccines are given, if something odd happens, make sure you document it to your vet. Not saying his vaccines caused his issue, just something to be aware of.


Definitely will do this. Also the vet advised us to stop feeding TOTW and to feed Purina Pro Plan. So did the ortho surgeon.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Why did they feel proplan was better......Some of the adult to two formulas are too high on calcium....I was very happy with from large breed puppy gold


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

jocoyn said:


> Why did they feel proplan was better......Some of the adult to two formulas are too high on calcium....I was very happy with from large breed puppy gold


They said the TOTW has too much protein for a puppy. Pro plan would be better.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The calcium and phosporous ratios should be balanced. There are alot of threads on nutrition. You may want to read some and decide which brand is best to go with. If I fed kibble to a pup I'd probably feed wellness puppy or earthborn holistics(meadow feast has the right ratio of cal/phos) 
Better to spend a bit more on nutrition while pup is in the important growing phase.


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## Airman1stclass (Jan 12, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> The calcium and phosporous ratios should be balanced. There are alot of threads on nutrition. You may want to read some and decide which brand is best to go with. If I fed kibble to a pup I'd probably feed wellness puppy or earthborn holistics(meadow feast has the right ratio of cal/phos)
> Better to spend a bit more on nutrition while pup is in the important growing phase.


Ok will do. I kinda feel bad feeding him the Purina. A lot of not so good reviews. But I thought the vet would know best.


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## igottabecrazy (May 24, 2013)

So happy to hear he is better. I've been praying for good news for all of you.

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## Cara Fusinato (May 29, 2011)

SO glad to hear he is better. Maybe the power of ALL of us thinking of your baby encouraged healing. I know your family has been on a lot of minds this weekend.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

There is some good info here on Calcium and Phosphorus and Protein levels.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/feeding-our-puppy/163201-feeding-puppies.html

Vets can be so so on food though. MOST high protein foods rely on a lot of meat meal and little meat and are unbalanced with Calcium to Phosphorus and that includes many TOTW formulas. The TOTW PUPPY formulas are pretty balanced though and in line with OTHER puppy formulas, including the Pro Plan 

I left TOTW anyway after the last go round with Diamond Brands (they make MANY brands of pet food, including TOTW and have had a lot of recalls). By the same token nobody knows WHO makes the Blue Buffalo foods. Fromm has a good reputation. I think Wellness does. You can probably look up any name on this form and dogfoodadvisor.com to see reviews. 

Were you feeding the puppy food or the adult food. This page shows the calcium, protein and phosphorus in the entire line. The pups should be lower on the calcium and phosphorus and as close to 1:1 as possible as pups can't process high calcium as well as adult dogs.

Natural, Healthy, Premium Cat and Dog Food


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