# Go out and meet dogs



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ok, so a couple of recent threads got me thinking...and I just want to get this off my chest.

I love having this forum to review and read. It's a great resource when I have a problem or a question and once in a while there is an interesting GSD or dog topic that pops up that's always fun to discuss and see where people are coming from. But this forum is also contributing to an issue...people reading about GSDs, reading opinions about GSDs, and thinking they know what the dogs are. It's what we tell everyone to do...research, but this forum is secondary research and causes people to develop biases and opinions that aren't always correct. For some reason, people that have never had a GSD think they know everything about the breed after reading a few websites and threads.

Now, I've learned a lot from this forum, but everything I read here I take with a grain of salt because I have my own experience (not that much of) and also real-life people that I trust a lot more than any of you (no offense, my relationship with them is real and not just through the interweb) telling me their experiences and what they believe about the breed. I think we can all learn a lot from each other, but how do we get people to understand that one poster's experience isn't the end all be all. That a post isn't law, its just all opinion.

I sometimes have to catch myself before I post something that will clearly be disheartening to someone, but isn't that kind of reality check sometimes necessary? I don't want to hurt people's feelings, or leave them feeling like they got attacked, but once in a while I read something on here that makes me go...WHAT?!?!?!

The point of this is, read, read, and read, but please, go and see German Shepherds somewhere other than your home. Meet the dogs you want to learn about, look at their lines, ask for pedigrees. People are generally very welcoming to such questions. People love talking about their dogs.

I'll come back on and elaborate and vent a little more in a bit. If anyone else feels like they want to add, please do.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

It's overwhelming at times because there's SO many regular posters with differing opinions (some more vocal then others)

I agree take advice with a grain of salt and do your own research both online and in person, and above all be ready to learn each day


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I don't want to hurt people's feelings, or leave them feeling like they got attacked, but once in a while I read something on here that makes me go...WHAT?!?!?!


Agreed. I try to be considerate of other people's feelings by saying what I want to say and also stating that I mean no harm in posting an opposing or differing opinion. I think if you feel like someone has posted something wrong, you should be brave enough to call them out politely of course...I know some people regardless of how polite you try to be will take a post like that negatively but in the end it'll be for the greater good.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I completely agree that people need to go out and meet dogs. 

I also would not recommend any breeder if I had not met their dogs. They may look great online, or in pictures, but until you see their activity level, temperament, etc, in person...hard to really recommend. 

Where can you see German Shepherds?
Training clubs and centers - anywhere dogs are being trained
Breed Clubs
German Shepherd Rescues - have a variety of dogs of all lines, known and unknown (obvious and not) and like to have people at the Meet/Greet events to hang with the dogs
Dog shows
Events like Flyball, Agility
Schutzuhnd clubs and competitions
Hopefully at any herding events
Others?

When you look at your area, and google these things you should find places where you can see German Shepherds. You may even want to travel - when I was little we did a "pilgrimage" to the University of Vermont Morgan Horse Farm. You could take a family trip to different GSD events. You can see different lines, you can look at what the breeders value in their dogs, you can see how different dogs act and you can develop a preference for what you want in your own dogs.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

When I first got on this forum just a little over a year ago there were a lot of people who had genuine experience. One of them being the breeder of my Jack.

When I say experience like hers I mean 30 plus years of breeding, training, trialing, titleing. Working with problem dogs, boarding, and an incredible knowledge of what a GSD should be.

There were and are others like her that rarely post anymore.

I can tell by the repetative nature of some topics like "reputable breeders" that many have read what one "should be" but probably would not recognize one if they fell over it.

I'm no expert, I can only share my own experiences from having had a number of GSD's and many other dogs. I like to learn from those who "really" know the breed. I wish they would return.

I agree a lot with martemchik. Too many read something and make it their own. It's hard to defend a position with only intellectual knowledge.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've had my boy for a good 2 years now. That is pretty much all my experience with not just the breed but dogs in general. I joined a GSD club, I show, and I've explored Schutzhund clubs and even gone herding with my boy. I don't ever judge a dog until I have seen it work and so I have formed my own opinions on different lines and different bloodlines. So I have very limited knowledge of the breed, and because I don't ever see myself needing to know the exact bloodlines and what certain dogs bring to the breeding table, I don't spend my time learning that much about pedigrees.

But sometimes you get opinions from people that do less (by their own admission) or are just planning to get a GSD, or maybe just got one that make me go, what in the world caused you to make that statement?

Jean...great advice on where to see dogs. We just had a couple come to our club with a puppy, they live about 10 minutes away and never heard of it. They did get their dog from a breeder (not sure how reputable) but it sounded like they're alright. I wasn't about to drill them on the breeder of their 9 week old puppy. I know breeders at the club are sometimes "hurt" or disappointed when people don't contact them first, but it is shocking that they live 10 minutes away and never thought about the club before they got their dog. It would've taken an quick google search to find us and they didn't even do that.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

martemchik said:


> I joined a GSD club, I show, and I've explored Schutzhund clubs and even gone herding with my boy.


You are 1 in a million, seriously. Any GSD would LOVE to live with you, and I'm positive that there are gazillions of GSDs who'd trade owners right now if they knew what kind of a life you're offering them.

Going and seeing the dogs isn't the issue, although I see where you're coming from. So many people have seen my GSDs and, liking what they see, tell me they're going to get one. If it's a stranger then I'm polite and tell them that it takes a lot of work and a huge commitment to get them to this point. I'm not going to instantly judge them...but honestly, with my friends I usually tell them NOT to get a GSD. Why? Because I know them: I know what their priorities are, I know what their commitment level is, I know how assertive (mostly not) they are...very rarely have I said that it would be a marvelous idea. Sure, I'd love it if every household had a GSD, but not every household has what it takes. And it drives me crazy to see them kept in sub-standard conditions.

I don't even mean that the dogs absolutely need to be worked the way you do - I've had 4 GSDs and they've all only ever been companions. But when I say 'only' companions, I mean I take them everywhere I can. My last boy went to work with me every day, did therapy work...they are an integral part of my life - my life revolves around the needs of my dogs. And I wouldn't have it any other way, because I adore the breed and I don't find it to be a compromise at all - just the way it is. Trip? Only if the dog can come, lol. Where will I move? Wherever would be best for the dog. Etc. etc. etc. 

I think a real issue is the personality of the prospective owner. I had the opportunity to help out at a GSD rescue, and met some of the owners surrendering their sweeties. They all had one thing in common (in my limited experience) they were all super nice nice nice and couldn't wear the pants in the family if their lives depended on it. And of course all of their dogs came in with a bite history, making adoptions near impossible.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

research is great and I encourage anyone to do it, you can never "learn" to much.

Hands on experience is , whether its dog shows, clubs, meeting breeders and their dogs, finding a mentor! is invaluable. "Reading" is easy, real life experiencing it is what you'll (general you) end up with.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We have 8 GSDs in our home. 2 are WGSL the rest are working line. I also have a dog daycare as part of my business. We are known at "The GSD Place" around here, so have a disproportionately high number of GSDs that attend our daycare. (I meant to take a pic yesterday, all but 2 dogs here were GSDs). At the daycare, we get everything, BYB American lines, Highly bred American Show Lines (Jimmy Moses is in the area)Working lines, one from a place that is geared toward agility, rescues, WGSL, you name it. Even after all these years I learn something new about the breed and/or the lines on a regular basis. 
We aren't breeders but we get at least one call a week from someone looking to buy a dog or puppy. We have a few breeders we will recommend. I am also happy to look at websites of breeders they are interested in and tell them what questions they should ask. We have also gone out with people to look at litters (when it is in a reasonable distance) and help them pick a puppy if they ask. We are clear, however, that a dog is a living thing and regardless of a paper guarantee, there are really no guarantees in life. 

I'm one of those people who will research something to death. If I am going to make a major purchase or get involved in an activity that requires serious commitment then I will read all I can BEFORE I jump in, but I have come to realize that most aren't going to do that. 
We recently had to tell a client that their GSD, while a sweet pet, will most likely never get a Schutzhund title. The guy is heartbroken, but we just didn't want to see him push the dog when it is obvious the dog is pretty miserable. He spent a lot of money on the dog but was totally taken. He believed the website and didn't look any further.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Martemchik, I'm getting a slightly different vibe/undertone from your post than most of the other posters, I think, except Jack's dad (great post, Jack's dad, btw). If I'm reading you right, I want to say I agree 1000%. :thumbup:

I remember a guy giving me a hard time about how I handled a couple dogs who wanted to fight all the time. 2 were Pits and the others were GSDs. He had some crazy ideas about how it "should" work with separating and training, etc. and I asked him his experience and how he came to that conclusion, genuinely interested. Now, I was doing just fine, but it was a lot of work. If there was a better way out there, I was all ears. He came off as an APBT expert, well-read on bloodlines and temperament, etc. Turns out...he didn't even have a dog!!!

Armchair quarterbacks seldom win the Heisman.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yeah Jenni, BUT the armchair QB's know more than the newbies, and unfortunately is where a lot of newbies get there information. Many of us have decided to glance at replies, often for amusement and let the games continue.  Took me a little longer than others to realize I shouldnt be arguing with people about things I know to be true and I know they dont really know. If the newbies really want to learn they will go out and see the dogs at shows and events, and then they will quickly realize who is giving good info to the board.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

cliffson1 said:


> Yeah Jenni, BUT the armchair QB's know more than the newbies, and unfortunately is where a lot of newbies get there information. Many of us have decided to glance at replies, often for amusement and let the games continue.  Took me a little longer than others to realize I shouldnt be arguing with people about things I know to be true and I know they dont really know. If the newbies really want to learn they will go out and see the dogs at shows and events, and then they will quickly realize who is giving good info to the board.


You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink no matter how tasty you might consider it


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's where I'm coming from...

This is my first dog, I bought 2 GSD books and looked at plenty of websites before I purchased. I didn't much care for titles (didn't understand them at the time) and didn't much care for conformation because I never planned on doing any of that. I was planning on having a pet. I got my dog, joined our GSD club, mostly because the cost of training is less for a whole year than petsmart is for 8 weeks. I started to like the people, I joined our club show, and got bit by the bug. At that point I joined the forum, I started reading, I really enjoyed seeing people's opinions on what is going on in the GSD world. Some people (like cliff and carmen to name a few) are way over my head. I will never know anywhere near as much as they do about the breed and I really don't care to. I respect them enough though that I wish more people were like them and really knew that much before doing any kind of breeding, but I'm a realist and I know it won't happen. But I bet cliff would feel the same way I do if I started talking about accounting.

I have a hard time taking people serious when they have admitted they don't have a dog, or they don't do what I do with my dog. I'll read their opinion, but to me it really doesn't hold much weight. But that took a year of being on this forum to realize who is who. It really gets me going when the information is clearly from something else, or they even take the time to put the link to where they got their information as if who ever wrote that article is supposed to be more reputable.

I think people want to learn, they want to be more knowledgeable, but they don't want to take the time to learn about it first hand. They want to see what has worked for others and then hopefully that one solution will work for them. I myself don't want to drive 2+ hours to a show (so I pick shows close to me lol) but I have definitely learned more from going to shows and speaking to my club members than I could've ever learned on this forum. It's much easier to understand things when they are talked about first hand, its more interesting to sit and listen about someones 30 year history with the breed and where it has gone in that time. It just makes me want more and more GSDs and I can't imagine when I'll be on my 10th or 15th.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Amen to this!

I researched breeders and lines for over a year. I read and looked at pictures and thought I knew exactly what I wanted!! I was planning on a nice big DDR male. And then you know what I did?

I went to dog shows to see and meet GSDs.
I met with people and their GSDs from various lines.
I went to trials to watch them work and meet them.
I called people on the phone and talked at length about their own GSD's lines and temperament.
And most importantly I went to visit breeders of various lines and met the dogs I had been looking at on their websites.

I came away from this KNOWING I in fact wanted a WGWL, and I wanted a female (something I never would have believed before meeting so many dogs). I ended up going with a breeder I never laid eyes on in person, but that was the perfect choice for me because after visiting lots of dogs I was SURE of what I wanted. 

Your imaginary future dog is just imaginary. My best advice is to go out and meet REAL dogs and make a reality based decision, not a decision based on emotion and website pictures.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I agree with you pretty much 100%, but when someone posts a training question, I feel like anyone who has dealt with the situation and conquered it should feel free to post.

If someone asks about fear aggressive dogs, like someone did two days ago, I will share my experience with Rocky and what I did to fix it.

Sometimes, you don't have to have been breeding german shepherds for 30 years to answer a question.

The people who have their perfectly bred german shepherds from awesome breeders shouldn't be dealing with fear aggression or aggression.....when someone with a BYB dog asks a question, they can often get better advice from another person with first hand experience rather than an awesome breeder with dogs with great temperament.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

Shade said:


> It's overwhelming at times because there's SO many regular posters with differing opinions (some more vocal then others)


learn to separate the chaff from the wheat.
i take cliffson1, carmspack, wolfstraum, chris wild ('s) posts as gospel.
i only wish these guys posts more than the chaffs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I sometimes have to catch myself before I post something that will clearly be disheartening to someone, but isn't that kind of reality check sometimes necessary? I don't want to hurt people's feelings, or leave them feeling like they got attacked, but once in a while I read something on here that makes me go...WHAT?!?!?!


Exactly. A perfect example is the poster that didn't know GSDs could be aggressive... despite all the posts from people looking for advice on how to handle aggressive behavior in their GSDs. It's shocking sometimes, but you have to remember... if someone has absolutely NO experience with the breed except for what they've read, they have to start somewhere, and I think it's our duty to tell them what they need to hear, even if they don't like it or take it personally.

Over the past 25 years or so, I've owned several GSDs and one GSD mix. I got my first purebred GSD pre-internet, so I had to drive around, visit breeders, see dogs, go to shows and trials, talk to breeders over the phone, etc. 

Over the years I've had GSDs, I've trained, trialed, travelled, gone backpacking, participated in dog events, even showed in AKC conformation once (hope I never have to do THAT again).

I've been working professionally with animals since 1990, first as a vet tech, then as a groomer. I've seen and worked with hundreds of GSDs, of all stripes--BYB dogs, show dogs, working dogs, police dogs, rescue dogs, pet dogs. 

Now, I admit I've never been a breeder so I am woefully ignorant about the specifics of bloodlines, breeding, raising litters, selling puppies, etc. However, I am pretty close with a few breeders, and over the years I have seen what they go through, so I have a different perspective than the average pet owner.

I've also never been a professional trainer (though I do sneak some training in while I'm grooming). So when someone has a serious behavior issue, I have to deign to those more knowledgable.

I'm here, as many others are, because learning is a lifelong experience. If I can help someone, that's a bonus, but I'm really interested in learning more than anything. I love it when experienced breeders, trainers, etc. share their knowledge.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

rshkr said:


> learn to separate the chaff from the wheat.
> i take cliffson1, carmspack, wolfstraum, chris wild ('s) posts as gospel.
> i only wish these guys posts more than the chaffs.


Sure I've learned that but I've always been naturally aloof towards other people's opinions. I'll sit back and watch then do my own research and form my own opinions. Not everyone can do that though, some people are so wishy washy they follow any new trend or fad

Noone is perfect and people make mistakes, Chris told me I was wrong in calling my dog a bicolour but that's what he is without a doubt. But does that mean I'd throw out all advice, certainly not! We all learn from our mistakes and there's a lifetimes worth of knowledge from those people. Robin, Lee, Lisa, Cliff, and Carmen - what I wouldn't give to tour their kennels and spends hours talking to them as a group. I found Stalworth Kennels through Carmen and my vet's recommendation so I owe Carmen a lot of gratitude for that alone


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

cassadee7 said:


> I was planning on a nice big DDR male. And then you know what I did?
> 
> I went to dog shows to see and meet GSDs.


OMG, Shawn, please don't tell me that meeting Anton stopped you from getting a nice big DDR male!  :wild:oke:


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

When I was younger we always had a dog that was a GSD mix, but never a purebred. My boyfriend's grandfather had a couple and he said they were wonderful dogs. With all of that being said, I had no clue what I was getting into with a purebred GSD. When we got her and took her to get her collar and leash, my golden's trainer was there and she suggested obedience classes as soon as possible. I agreed but the boyfriend didn't. He didn't want to spend the money and insisted we did it at home. Needless to say one week later we were in class Once we started classes, I researched everything that I could on this breed...a little late, but I wanted to learn and make a better life for her. I think we have done well..she has had schooling almost her whole life, she has tried schutzhund, and she will be trying agility next. I feel that in the last 8 months that I have learned lots about the breed(most of it on here--thanks to everyone with an opinion) and I take what I'm told and evaluate it to make sure its what I feel is best. I love the GSD breed and I hope to continue learning. I can't wait to get my next one, so I can start all over and give another dog everything it needs to be what its meant to be


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, remember just because someone has dogs with a certain kennel name doesn't mean other people should be recommending them. I've seen people recommending my dogs' breeders and these people have never met me, my dogs, or my breeders. I'm not saying I don't recommend them but I find that a little off. I could have the best dogs in the world or they could be downright monsters, lol. I know several people who have dogs they are happy with but would not return to the same breeder for another dog.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> OMG, Shawn, please don't tell me that meeting Anton stopped you from getting a nice big DDR male!  :wild:oke:


LOL! I love Anton  He is a big furry bear!

You remember Dany v Grafental... she is the one who pushed me firmly into wanting a female! And those Grunheide dogs, I met them and just knew I wanted a WGWL! (Although they had some NICE DDR studs!)


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