# How do I teach forced fetch (e-collar training)?



## TX Shepherd (Feb 3, 2009)

First, let me start off by saying that I am not interested in a lecture about using an e-collar as a training tool or how some other method would be better for my dog. Please do not ask me why I choose to use an e-collar instead of another method.....I will not answer you and it will only derail my thread. Call me cruel, closeminded, stubborn....I don't care. I am only looking for help from people who use e-collars for training.
I have seen all the threads (bashing) about e-collars & because of the mentality around here I have been reluctant to ask for help. So, if you don't have any e-collar training advice, please don't participate.......thanks.



First, a little history on my experience.......
I have been using a dogtra e-collar for training for about 9 months. I am not sure of the model, but the levels are 0 - 127. Lobo has a working level of 7. The highest I have ever had to go was 17 when he was extremely distracted.
I bought the e-collar through a local trainer & payed for 12 private sessions with them.
My trainer has left the area, so I don't have him to talk to anymore about teaching new commands.
Typically, we have not used the e-collar when first teaching a new command. The new command is taught using praise as a reward until Lobo has an understanding of the command and then the e-collar is used to reinforce the command & make him "sharper".


Now for the question......
I want to teach Lobo to retrieve items that I throw on land or in the water (floating) & bring them back to me or carry them around in his mouth until I tell him to drop it.
I want to be able to tell him to go get something and have him bring it back to me (newspaper, soda, remote, etc...).
I would appreciate any help/advice on how to go about this.....


Thanks!


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## TX Shepherd (Feb 3, 2009)

Oh, and Lobo is an 80 lb. white GSD. He is not aggressive or overly submissive. 
When we are training you can tell that he enjoys it and is very confident.

Just trying to give you guys a little bit of info on his temperment......


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

http://www.loucastle.com

Lou has some great information on e-collar training and will talk to you as well if you are having problems, especially read the part on finding the dogs working stim level. Good luck


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Yep, Lou's the man!

I keep trying to get my dogs to pick up the remote control when I drop it, but they always bring back a toy instead. DOH! (Sorry, little humor there. )


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I taught a forced retrieve to my German Shepherd, Abby, who has no natural instinct for chasing and retrieving anything. 

I taught this in increments - first, I taught her to take an item from my hand (then later from the ground), then I taught her to hold and carry it, and lastly I taught her to give it back to me (and later, drop it). After that, I taught her to "go get" an item that I threw and have her bring it back, building on the initial take/hold/release skills.

That said, I did not teach this with an eCollar, but maybe the general method I used and the way I broke it down could be useful to you?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Hi Tex,

Just kind of curious as to why you want to make forced retrieves on these items? You have to realize that training a forced retrieve takes a lot of commitment from the trainer and it is not the most pleasent activity for you or the dog. So if this is just something that you are looking at for fun, you may want to reconsider.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I taught Jax how to retrieve and Art is absolutely correct. I was ready to throw in the towel the day she ran from me. Now she'll take it, bring it, drop it. She still hates "Take It" so I tell her to "Bring It" and then she thinks it's fun. My plan for her changed and I had a reason for teaching her this. But if all you want to do is play with her perhaps you could find a way that is a bit more fun than a forced retrieve.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm also curious if TX has tried a motivational retrieve and it's not working, or s/he's not interested in even trying it. Even if you're committed to training with an e-collar that doesn't mean you have to use it for EVERYTHING. I bookmarked a really cool (unedited) video where someone free shapes a retrieve with an object the dog has never seen before using a clicker and treats in about 3 minutes. This is with a clicker-savvy dog, so with a dog that doesn't already grasp the concept it would probably take a bit longer. I can post the link if you're interested. 

Hope my question hasn't violated the "rules" of your thread.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Also, I saw in your other posts that you're working with a trainer. Why is s/he not helping you with this?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomAlso, I saw in your other posts that you're working with a trainer. Why is s/he not helping you with this?


I believe the OP answers this question in the post ...



> Quote:
> My trainer has left the area, so I don't have him to talk to anymore about teaching new commands.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ah, missed that. I'm sure there are other trainers in the area though.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

It was really hard for me to find a good e-collar trainer in NC, and then I had to drive 3 hours to get to him. I cant find anybody in S. MS I would trust yet. That is why I suggested Lou, I know Lou can help him, even if he doesnt currently have a written protocol for it (which I doubt, I swear Lou has an article for everything!). The OP may be in an area like me with limited or no options.


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## TX Shepherd (Feb 3, 2009)

Maybe I am using the wrong terminology.......

I want my dog to retrieve an item I throw (ball, bumper, etc.....). 
I also want to teach him bring things to me (newspaper, remote, soda bottle, pillow, etc....)

Maybe forced fetch is the wrong term for this.

If I attempt to play "fetch" with him he will chase the ball (or whatever I throw) & pick it up and play with it, but will not bring it back (I've at least been able to teach him to "drop it"). I just can't get him to understand what I want him to do. I have tried using two balls like I have read, but that has not worked.

Treats will not work with him. He could care less what kind of food you have....he is not motivated by it. He is most motivated by praise.
He is very confident and hasn't ever "shut down" on me during training and can be pushed pretty hard when learning something.
I just don't know how to go about teaching him this.


As far as other trainers, the only other trainers in the area use clicker training & treats. All they are interested in doing is "saving" my dog from the e-collar.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I have trained Ava to get things (the find it game). And also to take things to other people. (take daddy the phone, take Amber her shirt, etc....... I didnt use the e-collar though for those activities. I am sure you could, but I just didnt. If you are ineterested in how I taught those with out the e-collar, let me know or send me a PM or something. I'm more than happy to share. It is hard when your dog isnt particularly food motivated. Ava really isnt, unless it's hot dogs or sweet potatoes. But you could leave a long line on the dog while playing fetch and hold out the FAVORITE toy and use that as the reward, out the toy, and throw the ball again, she gets to play with the toy again when she retrieves the item.....but again, Lou really is your best bet for the e-collar training. Send him an e-mail and explain what you want, I bet he responds pretty quickly.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: If I attempt to play "fetch" with him he will chase the ball (or whatever I throw) & pick it up and play with it, but will not bring it back (I've at least been able to teach him to "drop it"). I just can't get him to understand what I want him to do


I have a pup that is/was like that.. I used a long line.. That way I could/can always get him back to me to re-start the game.. It took a bit of work on my part but now he comes back with his toy when I call him..

The e-collar certainly would work to re-enforce the dog coming back to you..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BetsyI didnt use the e-collar though for those activities. I am sure you could, but I just didnt. If you are ineterested in how I taught those with out the e-collar, let me know or send me a PM or something. I'm more than happy to share.


Why not put it here anyways so someone else might benefit from it?


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

Glad you took the forced

I used a similar method as Chris (Historian) mentioned. 


> Originally Posted By: Historian
> I taught this in increments - first, I taught her to take an item from my hand (then later from the ground), then *(2)* I taught her to hold and carry it, and lastly *(3)* I taught her to give it back to me (and later, drop it). After that, I taught her to "go get" an item that I threw and have her bring it back, building on the initial take/hold/release skills.


Except that I switched (2) and (3) around.

Taught this with a dumbbell, I would place it in her mouth and let her spit it out in my hand, which happened pretty quick at first. The praise and award initially came when she spit it in my hand eventually progressing to where she held it until I took it from her. As she learned that the money part was getting me to take it, we progressed to moving the piece further from me, tossing it short and increasingly longer distances. And the "fetch" wasn't so much forced it was the part of the expansion of the exercise with the "take it" and then having to return to "give" it to me.

Not sure how or where the e-collar usage would fit in here as I haven't used one, but I'm sure that those with that experience can fill in that usage.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Everett54Taught this with a dumbbell, I would place it in her mouth and let her spit it out in my hand, which happened pretty quick at first. The praise and award initially came when she spit it in my hand eventually progressing to where she held it until I took it from her. As she learned that the money part was getting me to take it, we progressed to moving the piece further from me, tossing it short and increasingly longer distances. And the "fetch" wasn't so much forced it was the part of the expansion of the exercise with the "take it" and then having to return to "give" it to me.


What a great idea!! Have the dogs natural inclination (spit out the thing) work FOR us instead of trying to work against THEM (force them to hold it).

I'll have to try this with Mauser. I haven't worked on a formal retrieve yet and this is such a neat way of doing it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

I prefer to teach the fetch naturally using the dog's drives, but that has the dog wanting to bring the toy back so that you can throw it again. There are ways to get this but since you asked about how to use the Ecollar to accomplish this end, I'll address this. 

It sounds as if you want the same sort of tricks that a service dog does, in bringing whatever object the handler wants, to you. 

The most reliable way to get this is with a forced fetch but that training that is not much fun for the dog or the handler. It's usually done with an ear pinch and then a toe pinch but usually those are people who are training gun dogs. 

It can be done with an Ecollar in place of the ear pinch. Follow the protocol for the recall roughly. That means that you place an object, something easy for the dog to grasp like a retrieve toy, in his mouth. If he won't take it you have to place it into his mouth. He'll probably take it and then will soon drop it. When he does press the button at the lowest level that he can feel and hold it while you place the object back into this mouth. As soon as it's in his mouth, release the button. Repeat until he's holding it reliably. Basically you're applying pressure to get him to hold the object and releasing the pressure when he is holding it. 

After he's got that you move on to holding the object in front of the dog a few inches and having him move forward to take it. You extend the distance a little at a time, making sure that he's reliable at each stage before moving on. 

I'd suggest doing some reading on the ear pinch method, there are lots of articles on the Net about it, and switching the ear pinch for the button press of an Ecollar. 

At some point you have to start teaching the dog the names of the various objects that you want him to retrieve.


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## TX Shepherd (Feb 3, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleI prefer to teach the fetch naturally using the dog's drives, but that has the dog wanting to bring the toy back so that you can throw it again.


Could you explain this further?


It sounds as though the forced fetch training could become a little confrontational between me & Lobo. Maybe I should drop the idea of a "true" forced fetch.......


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: TX Shepherd
> Could you explain this further?


Most GSD's have a fairly high degree of prey drive. This makes them fairly easy to train for this. They want to chase and catch things that are thrown. For the most part, how badly they want to do this is genetically determined. You can build this drive but if it's not there you can't put it in. 

If your dog's interest in this is low you can build it with a "flirt pole." Basically it’s a stick with a toy on a rope. You can buy them or make them yourself. If you do a Google search for this you'll get a lot of hits on stripers poles and "Santa–like" lingerie. They're not the same thing. lol



> Originally Posted By: TX ShepherdIt sounds as though the forced fetch training could become a little confrontational between me & Lobo. Maybe I should drop the idea of a "true" forced fetch.......


Forced fetching sometimes does become confrontational. It's rare but it does happen. 

I'd stick with the fun side of things. It's usually not as reliable (it's rare that a high level competitor does NOT use FF) but you'll be much happier and so will Lobo.


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## TX Shepherd (Feb 3, 2009)

I will try the "ball & string" first.

What do I do if he is not interested in chasing it?


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

What is his favorite toy? you can try that, I dont think it has to be a ball. Then once he gets that down, you can hold on to that, throw the ball with a rope and his reward is his favorite toy. Ava loves tug games, I often reward her with a game of tug. Of course his favorite toy will have to be put up and he only gets to play with it while you are working these sessions.

I also have a great little bright orange bumper toy I picked up at Academy sports for about 6 bucks that Ava is in love with.

Getting Ava really keyed up helped me with the find it and bring it game. Before we would start, I would do a little OB with her, she really likes that and gets her attention on following instructions. Then we would play, race around, bumping shoulders, playing tug, then I would ask her to get me something. I'm not sure, but her attitude is like OKAY is this part of the game too? She often does the kill shake as she brings me what I've asked for.......... hehehe. I can tell she is the most keyed up when she is doing the kill shake on everything.

Pump up the game, make it the funnest game there is. When you have a dog that is not driven by food, it can be really hard to get them to do things, Ava is like that as well.................but if we are playing.........that is sooooo much fun for her, she learns new tricks easier that way.


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