# What constitutes a "bite" history?



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Bit of a rant...

A recent thread in which a dog fended off a teenage boy when he had a bone got me to thinking how much times have changed! 

Back when I was a kid, if I'd have poked my face down by a dog for any reason and got bit, sure my parents would have assessed the seriousness of the injury, but all the while pointing out that it was my own fault for bothering the dog!

Now the dog has a "bite" history and nobody wants him. Back then, the kid got scolded and the dog got left alone!

Personally, when I think of "bite history" it isn't about whether the dog has bitten someone, it's about the circumstances leading up to the bite, and the severity.

Not because the dog shooed a kid away from his bone or food or bed or similar. That just seems like over labeling to me! Thoughts? Does the dog really deserve a label?


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

I was bit in the face by a bully breed as a teenager. Who’s fault? My own, because I reached down to kiss this dog on the head, who I had met only about an hour before. Needless to say, the only kissing involved was teeth on my cheek & chin.

If that happened today? That dog would likely not be around anymore.

Kids & teens (and most adults) need to be taught dog etiquette. Nowadays anyone is entitled to touching your dog or being in his space.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> Bit of a rant...
> 
> A recent thread in which a dog fended off a teenage boy when he had a bone got me to thinking how much times have changed!
> 
> ...


“Bite history” is most often used in a legal context…and i believe is generally defined as breaking skin and/or requiring medical treatment, including first aid. This may vary in different jurisdictions. Justifiable or not is subjective….and from a rescue/shelter stand point, a risk/liability, if said dog were to bite again, even if it was originally disclosed to the adopter.

In the county and facility where i work, a bite report has to be generated and many times the dog has to be quarantined even in situations of accidental bites (regripping a toy for instance), if skin is broken.

I was raised similarly as a child, our cockapoo bit me countless times…. but just as the times have changed in that regard, they’ve also changed in what people will sue over.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I sort of agree Tim. When I was a kid if I got bit the assumption was usually that I had been somewhere I shouldn't and was doing something I shouldn't.
Kids are always my line in the sand though, real kids not teens. I never crossed it when I was fostering or rescuing. In my opinion a dog that bites a child simply is not, and should not be, a companion animal.
But lets talk about bites. A bite is not a dog hitting someone with teeth. A bite is not a dog grabbing your hand and leaving a bruise.
When I was about six the Cocker Spaniel down the road ran at me and grabbed my leg. It was a bite. And Daddy was ticked off! I was not trespassing and not bothering the dog. We were walking past on the way to school. That is a bite.
When I was seven I was staying with a friend of my moms who bred and showed Chows. I was helping in the kennels, filling water buckets. I walked into the one dogs kennel and he charged and bit me. Still have the scars. That was a bite.
My grandparents nasty little Peke used to pinch me with her teeth, also slept with me. Never broke skin, just literally pinched the skin. Not a bite, just an old dog being cranky.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

To me, a bite history is when a bite has been publicly recorded. For me and mine if it isn’t Publicly recorded it didn’t happen. My previous boy and heart dog decisively bit me and my husband (Different times) It didn’t need a doctors attention it was novice handler error and I wasn’t about to jeopardize my boy for our stupidity. years later, my adult son was rough housing with him. He had a jagged canine and I just got telling my son if he got bit he best not even consider going to the doctors. Well, my boy tagged him above the eye from playing. That didn’t happen either.

I know all three did happen but my point is, if humans arent going to do their due diligence and learn how not to get bit from a reasonably stable dog, then they have the responsibility to protect their dog from possible consequences. 

but I don’t have young kids. and for me there is a line there. My son has been bit and so has my daughter when they were young By neighbors dogs. Not seriously so didn’t report it. 
Both kids had a talking to Ie stay the heck away from those dogs!


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

This is a good thread. Have to add this, the first time I ever read a post here where the owner admitted his dog bit him was Slamdunc in one of his Boru threads. It was just a little while after my boy had bitten me and the way Slamdunc talked about it as if it wasn’t the end of the world made me feel so much better about my own situation. like ok, a mistake can be made and life can move on and be made better. Up til then I was feeling pretty miserable about the whole thing.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

What is so troubling to me is that many many people have dogs that will resource guard something. My own dog, when she was just under a year found a nice bone on the ground and absolutely would have bit me if I tried to take it away. It's the only time she growled at me without playing.

But seeing that, I did not press her physically...so no bite. I did get her to drop it and leave it, grudgingly, then gave it back.

But you'd have to be sleepwalking not to see the dog's signals. So maybe we should label the person and not the dog LOL!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Fodder said:


> “Bite history” is most often used in a legal context…and i believe is generally defined as breaking skin and/or requiring medical treatment, including first aid.


If that were true, wouldn't every puppy that ever lived have a label? 

I have a friend who has a boxer mix dog. He posts signs that ask people to ring before entering his fenced in yard.

Pizza delivery guy disregards the sign and enter without warning. The dog, it's unclear, either jumped on or possibly nipped him.

Animal control was called, and my friend had to quarantine his dog for 10 days. And yep, now the dog has a bite history...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

tim_s_adams said:


> *If that were true, wouldn't every puppy that ever lived have a label? *
> 
> I have a friend who has a boxer mix dog. He posts signs that ask people to ring before entering his fenced in yard.
> 
> ...


yes, if people were to report their puppies to animal control


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

That’s the thing, we expect our dogs to obey our boundaries but there’s never any discussion about the boundaries that a dog may have and whether or not they’re reasonable my heartdog had boundaries your girl had boundaries once we learn to respect them and work with it, things stay smooth.


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## Cat Mom Adopts German Boy (Jan 4, 2021)

Very good thread and an important discussion.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Aha! Our very first dog, as a 6 week old pup ended up with a bite history and animal control did a 10 day in home quarenteen. A nip that needed a stitch. The dr wouldn’t listen and reported it. That was a long ago memory.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My pup would have been labeled an axe murderer for what she did to me on a daily basis LOL! But as I've said before, to each their own, but I don't want a dog that doesn't bite me on occasion, what fun is there in that?!


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> My pup would have been labeled an axe murderer for what she did to me on a daily basis LOL! But as I've said before, to each their own, but I don't want a dog that doesn't bite me on occasion, what fun is there in that?!


I hope I get to see a puppy biting thread where the op is complaining that they can't get there puppy to bite them enough someday!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

On a serious note, I'd really like to see a more narrow definition legally. Something along the lines of "the bite has to be unprovoked and, from the standpoint of a reasonable person, unwarranted in any way. And the dog, through it's actions and the severity of the bite, has to show clear intent to do serious harm."

To me, that would be much more fair and correct.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i think this discussion is interesting in general, but as far as the situation/thread that inspired it… there are still huge holes in the story and i think the over simplifying it based on very limited information can color our opinions. there is always an initial incident that lets you know your dog is a resource guarder… there were likely warning signs, but let’s pretend there weren’t, or they were missed. a bite in the face that drew blood is alarming to me, personally. towards a teen, less so than a small child, but we don’t know… this could be a teen with a developmental disorder, etc. the bite happened in january - here we are 10 months later, following another incident that has broken the trust in this family. maybe the dog was crated as part of the management plan… again, we don’t know. as much as i agree that the tone of the post presented as someone looking for a quick and immediate solution… as someone who has worked in rescue and dog placement, i commend them for divulging the information, as many people looking to surrender their dogs dont / wouldnt. whether justified or not and even if it seems overboard or unfair - i do believe that it’s their responsibility to share the information that they have. for the next person. i already addressed why shelters, but more specifically rescues, may not want to get involved, but truth is, how many of you would? the majority would not consider a 3yr old _without_ a bite incident. if there were other traits that you or i really liked in the dog (which is why i hinted towards gaining more info about the dogs personality), then one might inquire about more details…… but with so many gsd needing homes, he’d be an easy one to bypass.

so anyway, circling back to the original topic somewhat… many justifiable bites such as the ones mentioned between family members and dogs, aren’t reported, so to call it a “bite history” could seem a bit much outside of a legal situation, but as far as information sharing - even if i’m rehoming a dog that is mouthy or has nicked my hand while playing tug or has shown resource guarding tendencies but has not bitten….. i’m going to share those details. let the potential adopter decide what’s justifiable or within their comfort level.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> On a serious note, I'd really like to see a more narrow definition legally. Something along the lines of "the bite has to be unprovoked and, from the standpoint of a reasonable person, unwarranted in any way. And the dog, through it's actions and the severity of the bite, has to show clear intent to do serious harm."
> 
> To me, that would be much more fair and correct.


Agreed. This is very well put.


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't think a bit report is for when your puppies little sharp tooth snags you finger.Two block over from my house there is a neighbor who doesn't keep his Jack Russell contained in his yard.He has attacked my dog as a puppy twice. I put a end to it . No phone calls, just a warning that if it happened again I would punt his dog like foot ball,and deal with him in another way There are to many people who don't contain their dogs and they get out and do massive amounts of damage to innocent people or other animals.Most bits are caused by irresponsible stupid owners. If a dog is not trained properly it can be very dangerous At a sidewalk art show.I had a kid come up from behind and jab my dog in the rear quarters .If my Sawyer had not been trained ,he mint have responded differently.I have never had a GSD that would not bit if he felt like there was a threat.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> i think this discussion is interesting in general, but as far as the situation/thread that inspired it… there are still huge holes in the story and i think the over simplifying it based on very limited information can color our opinions. there is always an initial incident that lets you know your dog is a resource guarder… there were likely warning signs, but let’s pretend there weren’t, or they were missed. a bite in the face that drew blood is alarming to me, personally. towards a teen, less so than a small child, but we don’t know… this could be a teen with a developmental disorder, etc. the bite happened in january - here we are 10 months later, following another incident that has broken the trust in this family. maybe the dog was crated as part of the management plan… again, we don’t know. as much as i agree that the tone of the post presented as someone looking for a quick and immediate solution… as someone who has worked in rescue and dog placement, i commend them for divulging the information, as many people looking to surrender their dogs dont / wouldnt. whether justified or not and even if it seems overboard or unfair - i do believe that it’s their responsibility to share the information that they have. for the next person. i already addressed why shelters, but more specifically rescues, may not want to get involved, but truth is, how many of you would? the majority would not consider a 3yr old _without_ a bite incident. if there were other traits that you or i really liked in the dog (which is why i hinted towards gaining more info about the dogs personality), then one might inquire about more details…… but with so many gsd needing homes, he’d be an easy one to bypass.
> 
> so anyway, circling back to the original topic somewhat… many justifiable bites such as the ones mentioned between family members and dogs, aren’t reported, so to call it a “bite history” could seem a bit much outside of a legal situation, but as far as information sharing - even if i’m rehoming a dog that is mouthy or has nicked my hand while playing tug or has shown resource guarding tendencies but has not bitten….. i’m going to share those details. let the potential adopter decide what’s justifiable or within their comfort level.


Here's the thing.

GSDs are bred to chase and bite people. It's part of the breeding requirements in Germany.

Anyone that is surprised by their dog chasting and/or biting things, including people, is stupid. 

I got bit by several dogs when I was a kid. Every time it was my fault.

I have been bit by several dogs as an adult. Every time it was my fault.

If you can't handle your dog, get help. It's not rocket surgery. We all learn through our mistakes and some of them are painful.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Here's the thing.
> 
> GSDs are bred to chase and bite people. It's part of the breeding requirements in Germany.
> 
> ...


It can't be expressed more succinctly than that! 200% agree!

Love the mixed metaphors too "rocket surgery".


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> If you can't handle your dog, get help. It's not rocket surgery. We all learn through our mistakes and some of them are painful.


or…. you come to the realization that it’s not the breed for you if you can’t (don’t, won’t) keep your child and dog safe.

the only dog i’ve been seriously bitten by was a GSD, and, well, here i am 🤷🏽


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> or…. you come to the realization that it’s not the breed for you if you can’t (don’t, won’t) keep your child and dog safe.
> 
> the only dog i’ve been seriously bitten by was a GSD, and, well, here i am 🤷🏽


Yes! 

I'm not trying to be elitist, because I literally want everyone to succeed.

But some people shouldn't own a GSD. 

I train dogs for free to help them get along with their families. Most people don't need a pointy eared dog in their lives. I'm thinking about bumper stickers.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Nothing we say here is gong to make the slightest bit of difference, but the way people treat dogs these days is just beyond belief. Here's an excellent example:

Tasha was not good with strangers. My husband insisted on taking her with us just about everywhere he went. One day, I was dong gardening at the apartment we owned, which had a very busy retail nursery just across the street from it. Tasha was tied to a tree on the lawn, as it was one of the few places that had enough shade on this warm summer day. She was as far away from the road as possible.

A guy parked his car, got out, stepped across the foot high fence surrounding the lawn, walked up to Tasha and bent over her to pet her. I must have had my nose in the flowerbed, pulling weeds, because I never saw him until Tasha's growl made me took up. He was EXTREMELY lucky her lunge and snap didn't make contact with his face.

Then, the capper: "Why did she do that? Do you think it may be because she smells my dog on me?"

We MIGHT have had a dog with a bite history if things had gone a bit differently, though Tasha's snaps rarely drew blood, even when she did make contact with the skin. And it would have been ENTIRELY the stranger's fault, even though he had ZERO clues as to what he'd done wrong! 🤬


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> And it would have been ENTIRELY the stranger's fault, even though he had ZERO clues as to what he'd done wrong! 🤬


^THIS is exactly why the legal definition SHOULD change! Perfect example of some arbitrary person messing up and then labeling your dog! IMHO, as dog owners we should all be pushing for this change!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

To me a bite has to show intent, I have been bitten a lot. Like David said, it was mostly my fault. But not always. Ginger, the Cocker, was just a witch. And I also lived for a while near a hugely aggressive Dobe that simply bit anything he could get teeth on every time he broke his chain.
The Chow? I don't know. He was a kennel dog, should have been used to people cleaning, feeding, etc. He knew me. I was staying there for the summer. I had been in his kennel before.
All the other bites? I was either doing something dumb or ignoring body language.
As to a kid leaning over a crate? That's like rule number 2 I think. Don't ever corner a dog in it's crate.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

My brother had a male dobe that would literally shred anything or anyone he could get his teeth on as you were leaving our property! Didn't matter, household members or strangers were all treated the same!

He was an awesome dog! I put him in a cab one night to go pick up something from a quickie mart. When I went to go into the store, the cab driver was very clear that he was uncomfortable with me exiting and leaving the dog behind. So I took him, put him in a sit five or so feet from the door, and went in to get whatever it was I was after.

People walking by, right in front of him, no problem. He was exactly where I left him when I came out. Got back into the cab and went home, again no issues at all!

But have the audacity to drive away from our country property, he'd attack everytime! He was one of the greatest dogs I've ever had the pleasure of knowing...

ETA: When the dog was in the car, my brother would only roll the window down an inch and always caution people not to get too close. He would bite, everytime!

At home, he was really good with other dogs and kids, and even any visitors we welcomed in. But if you were in any way a threat, this was not a dog you'd want to meet! Never had a "bite history"...we made sure they didn't survive (KIDDING! Lighten up!)


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

I have been following that thread with interest, because of my own story re: adopting Maggie:
At the VERY END of the adoption process, I was told by the Shelter, "We legally have to disclose that she bit her previous owner. We don't actually consider it a bite, since the owner was breaking up a fight between 2 bitches in the home". 
As a person without the benefit of the experience demonstrated in this thread, this made me a bit watchful of her. 

Long story short, in the 1.4 years I've had her, she has shown NO aggression, even when provoked by other dogs. 
Of course, she's very strong & biting does seem to be fun for her - *and *It only took 1 or 2 "NO"s when she drew blood while playing with me - & she is now very, very careful & aware of my own "no tolerance" stance on biting people (clearly, people in her past did think it was fun). 

Yes, the dog is at the mercy of the humans it encounters. Lots of people aren't attuned to dog communication, & of course the dog will pay the price. It is so sad, for everybody concerned.


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## Cigar (Feb 19, 2021)

Fodder said:


> i think this discussion is interesting in general, but as far as the situation/thread that inspired it… there are still huge holes in the story and i think the over simplifying it based on very limited information can color our opinions. there is always an initial incident that lets you know your dog is a resource guarder… there were likely warning signs, but let’s pretend there weren’t, or they were missed. a bite in the face that drew blood is alarming to me, personally. towards a teen, less so than a small child, but we don’t know… this could be a teen with a developmental disorder, etc. the bite happened in january - here we are 10 months later, following another incident that has broken the trust in this family. maybe the dog was crated as part of the management plan… again, we don’t know. as much as i agree that the tone of the post presented as someone looking for a quick and immediate solution… as someone who has worked in rescue and dog placement, i commend them for divulging the information, as many people looking to surrender their dogs dont / wouldnt. whether justified or not and even if it seems overboard or unfair - i do believe that it’s their responsibility to share the information that they have. for the next person. i already addressed why shelters, but more specifically rescues, may not want to get involved, but truth is, how many of you would? the majority would not consider a 3yr old _without_ a bite incident. if there were other traits that you or i really liked in the dog (which is why i hinted towards gaining more info about the dogs personality), then one might inquire about more details…… but with so many gsd needing homes, he’d be an easy one to bypass.
> 
> so anyway, circling back to the original topic somewhat… many justifiable bites such as the ones mentioned between family members and dogs, aren’t reported, so to call it a “bite history” could seem a bit much outside of a legal situation, but as far as information sharing - even if i’m rehoming a dog that is mouthy or has nicked my hand while playing tug or has shown resource guarding tendencies but has not bitten….. i’m going to share those details. let the potential adopter decide what’s justifiable or within their comfort level.


Wow. Great post. Exactly covers my thoughts on the topic. It's good to disclose, for everyone's sake. Any person with integrity would disclose. 
In my case, I think the Shelter handled the situation perfectly. They cared about Maggie (then "Luna") & if they had told me "bite history" right off the bat, I might well have declined - not knowing what I know now.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> To me a bite has to show intent, I have been bitten a lot. Like David said, it was mostly my fault. But not always.


What's a perforated calf muscle between friends LOL! I don't even try to keep count, though I do get a little testy about my hands...

But even unprovoked bites that don't really do serious damage, just don't warrant a label IMHO! 

Dogs have a language, and teeth and growls are what they've got, other than the ample body language they usually preempt that with!

It's like I said in that other thread, put your dog, or allow your dog to be put in, these compromising situations, what do you/can you "reasonably" expect?!!

Meh, I"ve been bitten by a GSD and made friends with that same dog on the same visit more times that I can remember.

It shouldn't mark the dog for life...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Striker bit me multiple times while trying to get the chain cut, silly Mastiff mix punctured my hand after I spent two hours coaxing him out of the car, Xandra narrowly missed my eye while we were loading her, Creech almost cost me a finger and I have multiple scars from Bud. None of those dogs meant anything by it. They were scared or hurt or confused.
Shadow bites me, sometimes she is playing, sometimes frightened all is forgiven with a kiss


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Not one of them dangerous, and that's the point! It's not a fairly or even evenly applied label. Bite history. I do and always will treat every dog as a bite potential, because they are! Any dog anywhere can be provoked to bite. Most won't and don't want to, so they give you all kinds of body signals. 

I don't know, listen or don't, but don't whine when the inevitable happens, and for sure don't blame the dog!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

@tim_s_adams your doberman story brought back brought back memories. In my preteen/teen years my good friend that I spent a great deal of time with had dobermans. They were good dogs and trained to be friendly to welcomed guests. As they got older one decided much the same thing. If you were in the room or vicinity of him he was fine. But turn your back to him to leave the room or house and he would attempt to seriously take a bite out of your behind. This was discovered the day he removed a large patch of material from his owners jean leaving a bit of a bloody bum in the process. Being the 70's it wasn't reported. From that point forward the dog was put away from those unfamiliar. Everyone else was told and retold to always back out of the room if the dog was present. "Never ever turn your back to him he will bite you" ! And so that is what we did. He lived a happy contented life, well loved for a couple more years with no bites because we all followed the rule. Is it a doberman thing to have this trait I wonder?

I have been bitten by a few dogs. Our Lasa Apso bit my 3-4 year old niece in the face while being provoked. She needed stitches and has the scar. Again, early 70's, small town hospital no official report. Same dog bit me unprovoked. Well unless you call rocking in rocking chair provoking. Dog just walked over and bit my foot and gave me a deep gash. He had issues and after a couple more incidents mother had him euthanized. Not because she was forced to by an official "bite history" because back then where we lived dogs didn't have those. But it was the right thing to do because he became progressive more aggressive and unpredictable.

Every other time I have been bitten it was my fault. Step on a sleeping dogs tail in the dark and you might get bit. Try to get a terrified in pain dog with a trapped leg freed without covering it's head first...well...you get bit.

I think "bites" are subjective. Was it a bite with intent? Was it a bite in defense/preservation? Was a bite from a startle? Was it provoked? Was it really a bite or a warning nip? Bites can be accidents. Anytime a dog bites should be treated uniquely taking into account the situation the bite occurred before a dog is labeled with a "bite history".

I totally agree that laws and regulations should be much more clear on what constitutes a "bite" deserving of a bite history. People to easily forget they are dogs and not people. They don't reason the same way people do (or should).


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Sabis mom said:


> As to a kid leaning over a crate? That's like rule number 2 I think. Don't ever corner a dog in it's crate.


As to a kid leaning over a crate with a dog who is unknown or has a questionable temperament or is or has bitten them in the past, sure…. but generally speaking, i do have the expectation of a pet dog being ok with a family member doing this. i don’t want to live with a bunch of rules and walk on eggshells in my own house.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Springbrz said:


> Well unless you call rocking in rocking chair provoking.


I'm sorry but that made me choke on my chocolate! Dogs are weird. Sabi used to get really testy about being pointed at, Bud hated the hose, and didn't like me building snowmen, Shadow does not like me using the mini chopper. Lots of what we do is provoking apparently. Lol.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

I'm in total agreement with the general consensus...there are incidental bites and then there are attacks. In our profession, arborists, we go into people's yards all the time. Sometimes they are there, sometimes not. I always ask if they have dogs. We take nothing for granted. My husband has been bit once by a miniature schnauzer that left a softball size hematoma on his calf. This was during an estimate and the owners were standing right by. David just quietly walked up to me and said "watch the dog, he bites". We got the job and the owner admitted that "sometimes" the dog bites, so we should be home when you do the work. 
I have been bit 3 times. Once by a neighbor's mutt, nailed on the butt when leaving, ripped my jeans but just left a bruise. Didn't break the skin. The neighbor wasn't home. I didn't even mention it to her as I felt the dog was protecting its property, although in a rather timid way, as it didn't react when I got there.
The other times one was during an estimate by a standard poodle that nailed me on the hand, drew blood (I did say 'ouch' and suggested the dog be put in the house for the rest of the estimate), with the owner right there. She was mortified, although she admitted knowing the dog had this potential. SHE reported it to her vet, but I am sure no "report" was made.
Another time was from a million year old labrador that nailed my thigh while I was talking with the client. I don't think she even noticed and I didn't say anything.
A tragic circumstance happened, not involving us, by with a client. She had a large dog, whose breed I can't remember, that had a known bite history. She had warned us about him and assured us he would be contained any time we were there doing work. However, the time she missed paying attention was when family members were visiting. The dog was outside and a young child went out. The dog attacked the child resulting in severe head wounds. They immediately and voluntarily had the dog put down. But the guilt that was left and the rift created in the family were long-lasting. 
However, I also agree that people do not educate their children well in how to behave around animals in general, not just dogs. We were downtown with our Rottie (on leash, of course). A family was walking behind us and all of a sudden this toddler ran up to our dog and grabbed his butt. He didn't react at all other than to glance over his shoulder. But I went ballistic on the father who was laughing! at the incident. Told him in no uncertain terms that was a great way to get his child severely bit. 
Our latest dogs are JRTs. Our neighbor brought a visiting friend and her child over for a visit (with our permission). Our neighbor knew the protocol: ignore the dogs until they settle after new people are acknowledged. Otherwise, they stay higher than kites. The child was in shorts and when our male jumped, (did not make contact) she started screaming and kicking him. That did not go over well at all. I had control of him, but told my friend to get the kid out of there before something bad happened. They went back to my neighbor's house, changed the child into long jeans and explained to the girl a bit more about how to engage with the dogs, came back and the child and dogs played the rest of the day together in the garden.


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## Clipper (May 7, 2021)

My dog was in a down/stay as I spoke with a neighbor. The neighbor, without asking, bent down to pet my dog. My dog bit him on the sleeve of the jacket, no skin was touched.
The neighbor reported it to Animal Services and home quarantine was required.
The officer who visited was very nice. I asked her why it happened, and she said he was protecting you as he should.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

I've been bitten, thankfully never what I'd call a serious bite... the only 100% unprovoked bite was a JRT that my mother kept in her kennel (occasional guest). Dog who had many bites under his belt, thankfully he had old dull teeth. I went to let him out, I knew and followed the rules I was well into my 30's at the time. Open kennel door, stay out of the way and allow him an obstructed path to the outdoor run. That little (REMOVED) came out of the kennel, over a chair and around the now open kennel door and latched onto my hand... (thankful once again for old dull teeth) because I walked him outside hanging off my hand and tossed him off. I had a few decent red marks and scrapes but no punctures from it.

I was riding horses from the time I was 5yrs old, maybe that instilled a pretty solid sense of animal body language and the intuition to notice changes. They're diff beasts and communicate differently but almost all of the time it's easy to see something escalating to the point of no return. That said, I had a GSD years ago who simply was not tolerant of strangers in my home, he was a solid dog anywhere else but inside my house all bets were off .. he'd escalate with little to no warning and for no reason. I knew his cues, they were subtle.. a look that lasted too long was usually the precursor (I'd notice him starting to focus on someone, no fault of the guest). He was managed, crated or leashed when I had company and did all his socializing outside of my home.

My Corso was a warning filled machine .. you would have had to be the most clueless human being on earth to not see a warning from him. He didn't ever bite anyone, but when he was unhappy or uncomfortable there were hackles, growls, barks... he'd stand his ground but never advance towards his perceived threat if they just stopped coming towards him. He was also quick to recover, a word from me to tell him all was well and relax and he'd trot over for a hello and ear scratches. He simply wouldn't let anyone sneak up on me.

The current, Finn... so far he's been a solid dog but he isn't shy about teeth and open mouth greetings. Do I worry he would attack someone... absolutely not unless provoked and most likely cornered. Do I worry that in play he'll connect with someone - 100%.... or wander by the wrong person with his mouth open and have them feel teeth and accuse a bite - 100%! He is also managed in that he doesn't meet strangers on walks... NOPE you cannot pet him, WHY? cuz I said so!!! He doesn't play with peoples kids or anyone who isn't knowledgeable enough to know he'll come for a ball if you're not on top of the game and so on.

I saw an article years ago that I should have saved, it was statistics about dog bites - specifically whose care the dogs were under when they bit/attacked. Very very often (if my memory serves) they were not under the direct supervision of their owner ie - left with family, friends, etc. I tend to operate on the belief that no one around my dog knows how to act around dogs, and take very seriously the job of protecting him from being put in a bad spot. In a perfect world all the peoples would know about dog body language and warning signs - in this world it's my job to interpret for them.

I don't think I'd ever report anything less than a completely unprovoked bite/attack from a dog whose owner was not holding up their end of the "manage the dog I have" deal. Here in Ontario though and I'm presuming other places - all medical facilities are required to report caring for any animal bite to the health unit and usually police or bylaw.


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## doubleroll (Jul 5, 2011)

Great thread! I agree with most of the comments and that there should be well defined rules for reporting bites…
I have been bit several times over the years, including a friends GSD. Our Chihuahua has bitten just about everyone in the family, including our female GSD…
However, our previous male GSD also bit someone. Lou was the sweetest dog ever and I would not have ever believed he could bite anything let alone a person. He never chased rabbits or squirrels, let birds eat out of his bowl, loved children, etc. Just a lovable 85 pound fur ball.

Apparently, a delivery person, dropping off lost luggage, decided to snoop around house and go to the back door for some unknown reason. Lou was tethered by the back patio door as we did at times when his kennel was unavailable as he loved to stay outside. I was not home but my wife said Lou bit the guy‘s hand when he walked in the back of the house. The delivery guy drove to the local Police station and I received a call stating that my dog was loose and ran to the front to bite the guy. This was totally false and I had witnesses that the dog was in the back tied to a line that did not even reach anywhere near the front. The police asked for my dogs records, Rabbies vaccination, etc. Which of course we provided. I asked the Police to question why this delivery guy was the back of my house…only answer I got was that the guy didnt want to press charges or file a report just wanted to make sure our GSD was vaccinated. He barely had a scratch on his hand, lucky for him Lou was a very “unaggressive” GSD…But Lou did protect his home and family. I am not even sure if Lou had a bite record filed. This was several years ago but didn‘t really matter to us at the time.

We loved Lou for the 12 years that he gave us…and miss him dearly. Not so sure how our current girl would react if someone startled her but probably not as gently as Lou ;-)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Clipper said:


> My dog was in a down/stay as I spoke with a neighbor. The neighbor, without asking, bent down to pet my dog. My dog bit him on the sleeve of the jacket, no skin was touched.
> The neighbor reported it to Animal Services and home quarantine was required.
> The officer who visited was very nice. I asked her why it happened, and she said he was protecting you as he should.


People are stupid.

I was walking an English Mastiff I had for board and train. Big dog. 28" collar.

We were walking behind some businesses when this mother and daughter of about 5 comes out of a coffee shop. The girl squeals and sprints right at the dog. Mom said nothing. Not one word to the daughter. The kid was on our left and I didn't have time to get in between her and the dog.

I put him in a sit. She ran up and threw her arms around his neck and started giving him kisses. I was ready to hang that dog if necessary to save that kid. Luckily, he was fine.

I had a serious talk with the mom who defended her lack of actions saying that the dog looked nice enough. He could have killed that kid in a heartbeat. Her head would fit in his mouth.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

I agree with most said here but the reality is the general public will never care about the intent of the dog especially if the intent of the person bit was supposedly good/friendly. I'm all for it if they can narrow the definition of a 'legal bite' but mostly I just accept theres an awful lot of idiots out there and anything that happens in public will be pinned on me and my dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think intent has a lot to do with it. Puppy biting is ruled out for me because of intent.

I don’t know how I feel about downplaying bites that are less serious. I got bit in the ear by my grandparent’s nasty cocker. I believe it broke skin but not serious at all. The cocker stole soap and tissues to eat (weird) and I believe I may have crawled under a table to try and retrieve a bar of soap the dog was eating and got bit for my trouble. I was probably pretty young. Certainly nothing was done to the dog over it and I never made that mistake again. I don't remember specifics but I'm pretty sure that dog had bitten just about everybody.

I board plenty of dogs who will growl or snap at you for doing something they don’t like and I don’t consider them dangerous…one would straight up rip your throat out if he could but he is a 5lb chi and I have a muzzle that fits him when necessary so I take the risk 🤣 I have one I've boarded since she was a puppy and she will snap at your hand if you try and pull brambles out of her floof. She's made contact with my bare skin before but didn't leave a mark. 

yet, I have really mixed feelings about shrugging off a dog who angrily puts teeth to skin

I have way less tolerance for it than I used to, but of course it isn't my dogs we're talking about. If it were one of my dogs who had done something I'm sure I would protect them however I could because I love them so much and that's typically why people do protect and excuse stuff.

I got sent to the ER by a dog who was trying to check in to board. An unprovoked attack that would have been much worse if the owner had not still been present and able to pull the dog off me. There were a lot of warning signs that were justified, ignored, excused, or just lied about by those owners. During the first few weeks after that, when I didn't really know if I would get back full use of my right hand, I REALLY rethought everything I thought about nasty dogs.

I have very little tolerance for it anymore. I recently dismissed a dog from boarding who "bit" me...she just loads up at her kennel gate, she's neurotic, and the she redirects on anything that is near her that moves, which was me. I was just trying to give her a fresh water bucket. It didn't break the skin but left a mark. She had two other strikes against her including rolling a neutral dog for no reason and she had redirected and tagged me another time and ripped my shirt so if she had been just an inch or two different that would have been a puncture.

Basically as long as people are willing to pay me to take care of sweet fluffballs who don't bite, that's who I will take. there are a LOT of sweet fluffballs out there.

And are GSDs for everyone maybe not...I'm questioning pretty hard if I will ever have another. But even still. They should not be biting their families in anger.

My WL girl bit me and my husband both pretty badly AND my 12 y.o step daughter (much less badly). Never in anger. She was just sloppy and stupid with her hard mouth and toys and she didn't care if she missed. That was mostly on me for not making her do better when she was young and impressionable. Because when I laid down the law with her that she had to make sure she didn't hit people with her teeth she was perfectly able and willing


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

The dog looked nice enough! Now there's a statement that will lead to problems SMH!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> People are stupid.
> 
> I was walking an English Mastiff I had for board and train. Big dog. 28" collar.
> 
> ...


Yes, this exact same thing happened to me in the grocery store with my old GSD service dog. Small child sprinting at us, arms outstretched. I had time to step in front of the dog and catch the child. She wouldn't have done anything, but still. Who lets their kid sprint up to a GSD??? Same thing for us, parent said and did nothing.

Same dog in line for ice cream years later, a 10 ish year old boy asked if he could pet her and I said he could. He petted her and then leaned down and kissed her right between the eyes. I still feel guilty for not educating him and his parents about how dangerous that was. She was fine, she would never bite a kid for such a thing and she actually liked forhead kisses so, good good luck.

I was picking up a prescription in the grocery store with my lab SD yesterday. He was standing in front of me sort of facing backwards, and I realized someone had come up and looked to see a woman _right_ behind me, bending over to stare directly into his eyes very close. Talking about how she knows she can't touch him BUT he is just so cute. And that is why SDs have to be so bomb proof, because the general population of people are just so stupid.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

This is my former SD. Nothing about him looked nice or friendly. He had to endure all kinds of stuff like that. People staring. Sneaking up to pet him. Bending over him when he was laying down. Kids plucking at his tail / ears / feet.

Bomb proof is an understatement.


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

Sorry for the pseudo swear, I shall be more careful!!


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

The only time I've been bitten by a dog was a little small matted, dirty, dog that was clearly lost. I was determined to get it somewhere safe so I grabbed it despite it warning me. My husband was with me, it bit me, we got it in the trunk (hatch) and took it to a nearby vet who reunited it with its owners. I warned the vet clinic it would bite so they used towels handling it and possibly those leather gauntlets. 

But if it had been a bigger dog, I would've backed down rather than be bit. It's size was definitely a factor in me knowing and accepting it would bite me. 

So my fault, but I'd do it again. Poor thing was terrified and in bad shape.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

During the time I ran the kennel, I had one bite that needed medical treatment. Nasty little JRT mix, nailed me while I was clipping its nails. Two days later, the bite was so infected, I couldn't close the hand. My doctor ASKED me if I wanted to report it, and I said no, the dog belonged to a really sweet elderly widower, and I certainly didn't want him to have to deal with the hassle. He didn't have a lot of money, so I only charged him $5 for the nail clip. Yeah, $5 for the clip - $20 for antibiotics - part of the cost of doing business!  I should have muzzled the dog, and not trusted the owner to keep him from turning on me.

As for drawing the line with kids being bit, I don't like that. You NEVER know what a kid is going to do to a dog! I wish I remember where I saw this story, but I don't...Toddler gets bitten by the family dog. After the child has been looked after, the family hustles the dog to the vet for euthanasia. The vet says, 'wait a minute, let's just check the dog out and see if we can find what triggered this' as the dog had always seemed friendly and stable.

Guess what? The vet found not one, but TWO crayons stuffed in the dog's ear!

In Brian Kilcommon's book, 'Childproofing Your Dog' the NUMBER ONE rule is 'always SUPERVISE your children when they are with the dog'!

If only people would do that...😥


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Saphire, I keep thinking of Gus and open mouth kisses! Lol. 
Five minutes after meeting him, he dove straight up to give me a very toothy kiss! I guess many would have been terrified, I was in love. Lol. I would have been thrilled to get right down to a good tussle. My kind of dog.
I know that happy, exuberant dogs will sometimes use teeth to express joy. I am ok with that. I like it. I expect it. 
Shadow used to wear a muzzle off property, to protect against stupid people who would randomly grab and touch her.
I tell people to go to my right, you would be surprised how many ignore me and try to walk right on top of her.
People suck. Dogs are cool.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

If people haven’t already done so - I encourage you to look up the laws in your state. Although i couldn’t find where CA defines a bite anymore specifically than one that breaks skin…. there are additional protections/exclusions for dogs that are being intentionally provoked or having harm inflicted upon them as well as a special section for bites involving children under the age of 5yrs.

I also think it’s important to point out that filing a bite report isn’t the same as registering your dog as a dangerous animal. the point of the report is to collect details about the animal, circumstances surrounding the bite, etc.

My dog as a teen had a bite history (bit the neighbors foot when he was breaking up a dog fight)… a single bite, no 2nd offense, we weren’t moving or switching homeowners insurance or trying to rehome her, etc. Our lives went unchanged despite her “record”.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> People are stupid.
> 
> I was walking an English Mastiff I had for board and train. Big dog. 28" collar.
> 
> ...


People can be idiots.

Years ago I had a male and a female Rottweiler in the back of a Jeep with the rear window down 4" for air while I was in a hardware store. I always parked away from other cars where possible. This was before most people had ever heard about Rotties and they had no reputation. I was asked a few times where I got the big Doberman.

I came out just in time to see a guy about to stick his hand through and pet the nice dogs. That was a crisis averted since that male would protect without a growl. I think he would have kept the hand.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fama, my retired military dog, was very protective of the vehicle. I was parked as far as I could get from the entrance to Wal-Mart. I ran in for a couple things and when I came out, I could hear her.

A guy was trying to open the rear door on my SUV. There were caution working dog stickers on all the windows. The truck was rocking all over as she was spinning and trying to get out the door.

I have no idea what his motivation was for opening the door. Suicide by K9? He ran away when I started yelling at him.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

REEHGE said:


> I agree with most said here but the reality is the general public will never care about the intent of the dog especially if the intent of the person bit was supposedly good/friendly. I'm all for it if they can narrow the definition of a 'legal bite' but mostly I just accept theres an awful lot of idiots out there and anything that happens in public will be pinned on me and my dog.


And that's the reality we must deal with.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

David Winners said:


> I have no idea what his motivation was for opening the door. Suicide by K9? He ran away when I started yelling at him.


Seriously! What's WRONG with people???


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

People can be idiots on a grand scale. As I said earlier for me bites are subjective in the perspective of the dog and the one bitten and the hows and whys of the incident. A dog can have intent to defend itself and not be dangerous or vicious. The majority of people have an unrealistic belief that all pets should always be docile all the time under all circumstances. I'm sorry but if you hurt or scare any animal it's going to do one of two things. It's going to fight or flight mode just like humans. If people would just understand that we would have far less BS with the whole thing. With every dog I have ever owned, no matter what the breed, when asked if my dog bites I have always answered "s/he might" because well...??? Sure with must dogs good solid temperament and solid training offers better odds of no bite incidents but I would never say never with any dog. It's just unrealistic in my view.

And yeah, some dogs are just truly aggressive and wired wrong and that is a whole different scenario. I had one and he wasn't long for this world when he showed those traits and all the training and things made no change and the world (especially my children) wasn't safe with him in it.

Example: At a former job my boss thought it would be funny to sneak up behind me and finger poke me in the sides. I jumped, screamed and threw me fist up and back in a split second. I nailed him square in the face with a back handed closed fist hard. He didn't call the cops and file an assault charge even though I hit him. He knew darn well it was his own fault for scaring the crap out of me. Now lets say this was a dog. Someone startles the dog while sleeping, stranger/child runs up to it full speed to hug it. A stranger is on your property. The dog doesn't always know it isn't a threat. It reacts just like I did. It defends itself the only way it knows how...growl, bark or even a bite. Yet because it is a dog that can't articulate in human language what it perceived it's labeled as one of many labels...Mean, aggressive, vicious or dangerous because it bit someone. Well if I were a dog I guess I'd have a "bite history" because I gave my boss a bloody nose and a fat lip that he didn't see coming.


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## Clipper (May 7, 2021)

I was getting gas at a filling station with my dog in the car. An attendant walked by and commented "Do you know some people are so stupid that they will try to reach into your car and try to pet your dog?" He was on target.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Fama, my retired military dog, was very protective of the vehicle. I was parked as far as I could get from the entrance to Wal-Mart. I ran in for a couple things and when I came out, I could hear her.
> 
> A guy was trying to open the rear door on my SUV. There were caution working dog stickers on all the windows. The truck was rocking all over as she was spinning and trying to get out the door.
> 
> I have no idea what his motivation was for opening the door. Suicide by K9? He ran away when I started yelling at him.


we’ve had many same experiences. I had my 2 GSDs in the back of my station wagon years ago. I was in a store with my husband but also able to see them. A guy went up and started knocking on the windows basically antagonizing them. I went out and told him to leave the dogs alone. I can’t remember what I said “stop bothering the dogs” or something and he was immediately like “Im just saying hi” or something totally stupid. He wouldn’t leave till my husband came out to back me up.

I was sitting parked at the entrance to a campground waiting for my husband to arrive with the camper. My GSD loose in cab of my truck. Had the windows down because it was hot. A drunk guy came over and leaned in the window and asked to pet him. I said no. While he was flabbergasted-replying” no!?” I said “and you better get your arm out of my cab or he might bite it”. Because my dog was looking at him in a not nice way. He is a little territorial of the truck.

you honestly think it’s fine to stick your arms in open windows with a German shepherd who is clearly showing no signs of being friendly. Silently glaring at you from the back, no doubt what he is thinking/ gonna do.


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

I want any 'bite history' to come with a narrative. Referring to a 'bite history' as a term (or label) and not supporting it with anything else is of little use. What history? Let's have some numbers, and narrative around those numbers, like all statistics. Statistics need narrative to make the data meaningful. I'm aware one or two other posts say similar.

Also, some of the posts above reminded me of when I was learning to drive. My Dad told me to constantly expect the unexpected. To consider everyone else on the road as complete idiots. He said: "_Imagine they're going to do something stupid, such as turn without indicating, drive through the stop sign, stop suddenly for no reason on a main road, or that pedestrian might step right out in front of the car without looking."_ Great advice which has saved me on countless occasions. No, I don't drive like Miss Daisy but I am aware of what's going on around me.

As a dog owner I use the same approach. Every person out there, is, or has the potential to be, an absolute moron. They could do something unexpected or stupid at any time whether it be stupid, sheer reckless, or unintentional. Including me. We are all human. We can all have an off day, a momentary lapse in concentration; a moment of madness, sudden illness, etc.

So I go out prepared,_ not paranoid,_ but ready. Anticipating the unexpected. And yes, there's only so much we can do or allow for, but referring back to stupidity, I don't underestimate it.

I could have probably given you my answer in two words Tim: Meaningful data.


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## Barrie (Jul 5, 2021)

Too far out??

A hit and run driver injures a person in his car. The car doesn't get a history. The offender is the driver.

A shooter shoots someone with a gun. The gun doesn't get a history. The offender is the shooter.

A dog bites someone...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have to tell you all a story. It ties in nicely with this thread.
When Shadow was very young, maybe a year old, we had new neighbors move in. Shadow was about at the peak of her idiocy, afraid of everything and fairly aggressive about being touched. Our front yard had a fence that was about 3 feet high, and the dogs were only out if I was with them. 
The new neighbors pulled in and got out of their vehicle. I was playing frisbee with Punk and Sabs was playing with her brick. Shadow was completely fixated on Frisbee, standing by the fence and trying to pick it up off the ground. Neighbor guy walks to the fence, reaches over and ruffles Shadows back before anyone could say anything. In a split second Shadow had spun around and lashed out at him before bolting to the steps. She left a delightful gash on his hand. I was apologetic to a point, his wife not so much. She flat out told him he was an idiot and not to even think of blaming the dog. 
Had it been reported, I would have potentially faced a fine and a muzzle order. In spite of the fact that my dog was contained and he reached over a fence to "grab" at a strange dog. 
Context is everything! Shadow did nothing wrong in my opinion. Had she seen him she would have moved away. She did not attack, did not even hold on. She lashed out in defense. A dog in its own yard cannot reasonably be expected to anticipate that a stranger is going to touch them. 
Three days ago, the cutest little girl squealed and jumped at Shadow to give her a kiss. I would have hung the dog to protect the kid before anyone gets excited.
I was unlocking my door. And my neighbor a few doors down showed up with her little one. Cutest kid. Golden chestnut curls, chubby cheeks, always smiling. She's about two. Loves dogs. 
Anyway, this kid launches at Shadow and I have one of those "Oh-Fudge!" moments. She grabs Shadow and plants a kiss right on Shadows forehead! What does my little weirdo do? Wiggles, whines, and kisses her back!
Shadow has bitten or muzzle punched a number of people that moved too quick for me to stop the stupidity, but apparently even she understands discernment. And that is the key. Teens are a bit of muddy water because really, the puppy pass has expired on them. So bites to teens really are a whole separate category. And we really need a better understanding across the general public of the difference between a bite, an attack, a defense slash and a stop it nip. Because it boils down to intent.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> @Saphire, I keep thinking of Gus and open mouth kisses! Lol.
> Five minutes after meeting him, he dove straight up to give me a very toothy kiss! I guess many would have been terrified, I was in love. Lol. I would have been thrilled to get right down to a good tussle. My kind of dog.
> I know that happy, exuberant dogs will sometimes use teeth to express joy. I am ok with that. I like it. I expect it.
> Shadow used to wear a muzzle off property, to protect against stupid people who would randomly grab and touch her.
> ...


There are very few people I allow to approach Gus, no reason for it but at home and in the yard he is solid. He has no issue with my kids adult friends coming and going but he does keep a keen eye on them. His kisses aren’t normal lol so only dog savy people I know and trust are allowed to interact in that way. As for rough play omg he amps up quickly and does get rough so I do discourage.


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## CeeSoo (Jul 7, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> Bit of a rant...
> 
> A recent thread in which a dog fended off a teenage boy when he had a bone got me to thinking how much times have changed!
> 
> ...


Back in 1977 my dog was taken away because the dog had bitten someone getting out of their car. I was just a kid and it was the biggest saddest time to come home from school to call her and she would not come. It even makes me sad to write this. I do not believe she was an aggressive dog but she was protective of our property. I do not agree the dog needed to be taken away. If ever I am in such a situation even if I need medical care I will never let this happen to another pet owner.


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## CPO Rob (Oct 25, 2021)

As one of the members wrote "Bite History" is a legal term. Yes I remember my parents telling me not to bother the dog when she was eating or chewing a bone. And yes that collie would show her teeth which was a fair warning to us kids. At that time it was a swift chop to the muzzle by my dad and the warning to us to stay away.

Fast forward many years proper training can eliminate this. My present GSD was labeled aggressive and had a bite history at a year old. The owners were afraid of the dog. My veterinarian referred this young couple to me because of the work I did with my GSDs at the time. I went to the home and they had twins of 7-8 years old. They also had a beagle that was the existing dog, the beagle terrorized the GSD in the cage they kept her in. The beagle ran free, the GSD stayed in the cage. That day I asked them to put the beagle out and let me see the GSD. She came running around the corner got between me and the twins and hair was up and she was standing by. Oh boy! 

I squatted down and opened my arms and she came up to me. That was when I decided that I was taking her home. With much tender and loving work, this dog will "allow" you to touch her when eating, chewing a chew bone. She will not show any aggression to my 5 grandkids. They can touch her, pull her tail and sit next to her while she eats. But her aggression was to other dogs. That reconditioning took about 6-8 weeks of taking her to the vets office for an hour at a time 3 nights a week. 1st with a muzzle, over the time, she did not even flinch when another dog approached her.

So to sum this diatribe up. Dogs bite. Dogs bite for a reason. As a responsible owner, this is something that you need to identify and work on. It takes time and patience, but this can be overcome.
If you need some tips, message me. I would be glad to help.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Why did you decide on the spot you are taking her home? Why didn’t you decide to help the existing owners to understand and train her? You just told them the dog is beyond help and took her off their hands? Just curious…


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

CPO Rob said:


> As one of the members wrote "Bite History" is a legal term. Yes I remember my parents telling me not to bother the dog when she was eating or chewing a bone. And yes that collie would show her teeth which was a fair warning to us kids. At that time it was a swift chop to the muzzle by my dad and the warning to us to stay away.
> 
> Fast forward many years proper training can eliminate this. My present GSD was labeled aggressive and had a bite history at a year old. The owners were afraid of the dog. My veterinarian referred this young couple to me because of the work I did with my GSDs at the time. I went to the home and they had twins of 7-8 years old. They also had a beagle that was the existing dog, the beagle terrorized the GSD in the cage they kept her in. The beagle ran free, the GSD stayed in the cage. That day I asked them to put the beagle out and let me see the GSD. She came running around the corner got between me and the twins and hair was up and she was standing by. Oh boy!
> 
> ...


Why not share your tips with the board so others may benefit?


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## SulcoPete (Sep 10, 2020)

Sorry....can't get on board with this. I haven't asked her, but I bet the breeder I bought my dog from doesn't breed for chasing and biting people. She breeds for temperment (as in good temperment) and structure. My dog is as sweet as can be, and I'd be stunned if she ever chased a bit a person. But somehow, I'm not a stupid person either. Just one with a friendly GSD. All I'm trying to say is the world is a big place and there are as many different types of dogs and people as there are dogs and people. Blanket statements are bad, and simply untrue.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SulcoPete said:


> Sorry....can't get on board with this. I haven't asked her, but I bet the breeder I bought my dog from doesn't breed for chasing and biting people. She breeds for temperment (as in good temperment) and structure. My dog is as sweet as can be, and I'd be stunned if she ever chased a bit a person. But somehow, I'm not a stupid person either. Just one with a friendly GSD. All I'm trying to say is the world is a big place and there are as many different types of dogs and people as there are dogs and people. Blanket statements are bad, and simply untrue.


Blanket statement or breed standard?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

SulcoPete said:


> Sorry....can't get on board with this. I haven't asked her, but I bet the breeder I bought my dog from doesn't breed for chasing and biting people. She breeds for temperment (as in good temperment) and structure. My dog is as sweet as can be, and I'd be stunned if she ever chased a bit a person. But somehow, I'm not a stupid person either. Just one with a friendly GSD. All I'm trying to say is the world is a big place and there are as many different types of dogs and people as there are dogs and people. Blanket statements are bad, and simply untrue.


It's in the breed standard. GSDs are not supposed to be overly friendly, being aloof is also part of the standard.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

SulcoPete said:


> Sorry....can't get on board with this. I haven't asked her, but I bet the breeder I bought my dog from doesn't breed for chasing and biting people. She breeds for temperment (as in good temperment) and structure. My dog is as sweet as can be, and I'd be stunned if she ever chased a bit a person. But somehow, I'm not a stupid person either. Just one with a friendly GSD. All I'm trying to say is the world is a big place and there are as many different types of dogs and people as there are dogs and people. Blanket statements are bad, and simply untrue.


If your breeder doesn't breed for bite work, then they don't breed to any GSD standard.

The world is a big place, and there are hundreds of dog breeds. Some of those breeds are designed to be companion dogs that are friendly to everyone. While not every GSD is a working dog, it is a breed designed to do police type work, so no one should be surprised if their GSD has a propensity to chase and bite stuff, including people.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Winners said:


> People are stupid.
> 
> I was walking an English Mastiff I had for board and train. Big dog. 28" collar.
> 
> ...


I had a similar situation when Gus was about 1.5yrs old. There was a large store called Big Lots that would allow me in to do training with Gus which was basically walking beside a shopping cart, staying calm and watching me. He had to wear a vest stating “In training”. A little girl about 4-5yrs old came running and screaming from behind me and grabbed Gus around the neck, flopped on him hugging him with her face to his cheek. It happened sooooo fast, caught us both off guard. Gus was initially startled but be damned he sat there like a Saint while I spoke through my teeth to the dad. I didn’t want to touch or pull the child off with how things are but I told him to “call your daughter off my dog plz”. He did and then told me it was obviously ok since he was a service dog and well trained. “In training” and “do not pet” vest on him. I immediately stopped putting a vest on him for outings.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@David Winners I had a similar incident with my Dane. Small, vocal hurricane of a child suddenly wrapped around my dogs face. She was a small Dane, but a small Dane is still a big dog. Lol. Thankfully she inherited a full sized Dane attitude and love of children. After my mild heart attack I gave the mother a serious and graphic lecture on what could have happened. 
@Saphire I would expect nothing less from a Carmspack dog. 
In the initial vision for the breed was a dog that would watch the woman and the property while entertaining the children as necessary. It is in the book, in black and white. 
The GSD is supposed to like children. That does not mean parents should not watch their children, it means the breed should have a natural tolerance for small humans.
Shadow was not raised with small children so I am extra careful. It has not proved necessary, she just requires enough supervision to keep her from bowing to those herder instincts to chase should the children get too wound up. Bud was not a fan of small, fast moving, shrill humans but would simply vacate the area. Even he understood that violence against a child was not alright. No reputable breeder should allow a dog that has displayed aggression toward children to breed. Some breeders would not allow such a dog to live. Lex loved children but they confused her. Sabi adored children and babies. Adored. Would have been delighted in a daycare. No offense mattered if the offender was a child. They could fall on her, scream, grab at her, hug her. The more they interacted with her, the softer she got. She did not care if it was my kid, the neighbors kid or a random child out in public. She LOVED them! She was absolutely different toward teens. Not at all tolerant and really not a fan.


SulcoPete said:


> Sorry....can't get on board with this. I haven't asked her, but I bet the breeder I bought my dog from doesn't breed for chasing and biting people. She breeds for temperment (as in good temperment) and structure.


You do understand that these are German Shep*herds*? 
It is the herding behaviors that we so willingly exploit to serve our more modern uses for the breed. The instinct to identify and chase predators, engage without hesitation any threat, tolerate the antics of young lambs, watch over them faithfully and lead/move them to safety. You cannot remove those qualities or allow them to be lost without irreversibly damaging the breed.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> Sabi adored children and babies. Adored. Would have been delighted in a daycare. No offense mattered if the offender was a child. They could fall on her, scream, grab at her, hug her. The more they interacted with her, the softer she got. She did not care if it was my kid, the neighbors kid or a random child out in public.


Thia made me smile! Sabi and Nyx are very similar in that regard. I had my dog in the small dog enclosure when no little dogs were using it because she was just ending a heat, but really NEEDED some exercise. A friend showed up with her 2 hound dogs and her 15 month old girl in tow. She saw us and asked if her daughter could come in there with Nyx for her safety, because it was a fairly busy day and the kid was very ambulatory. Of course I said sure!

So the little one comes in and I show her how to throw the ball for Nyx. Which was fine for about 3 throws, then Nyx lost interest in those short throws and laid down to chew a bit on the ball.

The kid started investigating a tunnel that was there, and Mom said something to me so I turned to respond. As she was speaking back, about halfway through she started making faces, so I whipped around to see her daughter, face 3 inches from Nyx's muzzle, with her hands firmly gripping her jaws to pry them open and get the ball. 

You know in that instant, which was far from her first with small children, you instantly take in the dog's demeanor to assess if there's any danger. Nyx has a very solid "drop it" command, but there was just no need to use it, so I just chuckled and watched.

Her eyes said she perfectly understood the kids logic and it was fine! 

On another occasion, I was at a local river. We were walking along a sort of road about 10 ft above the actual beach. There was a family with a bunch of kids playing on the beach below us. Out of the blue, Nyx decided that she needed a drink, so she leaped down the embankment and ran into the water to get a drink...about 3-5 ft away from there little girls playing on the beach!

When they saw her they all shrieked and ran. Nyx didn't even look up, just got her drink, then leapt back up the bank and we continued our walk.

A little bit later I was walking down the actual beach and passed this family again, so I made a point of apologizing. The father was very quick to say, no problem, that's a great dog! And, of course, she is that...


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## CPO Rob (Oct 25, 2021)

GSD07 said:


> Why did you decide on the spot you are taking her home? Why didn’t you decide to help the existing owners to understand and train her? You just told them the dog is beyond help and took her off their hands? Just curious…


The existing owners were taking it to the SPCA. I did not want that.


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## CPO Rob (Oct 25, 2021)

David Winners said:


> If your breeder doesn't breed for bite work, then they don't breed to any GSD standard.
> 
> The world is a big place, and there are hundreds of dog breeds. Some of those breeds are designed to be companion dogs that are friendly to everyone. While not every GSD is a working dog, it is a breed designed to do police type work, so no one should be surprised if their GSD has a propensity to chase and bite stuff, including people.


Dave I see your point.


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