# Aggressive behavior in a male GSD....help!



## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

I need some help please, I have a just 3 year young un-fixed male GSD who the day before Christmas Eve started to growl and corner my four year old daughter. He has never done this to her (got him at 6 weeks old), only barks and growls at our 1.5 year old female silky. Than on New Years Eve he started in with my husband too, but he still acts like a puppy with me. Our vet just got back to me an hour ago saying she is not surprised by this, says that most GSD's are a one person dog. Now we have a 4.5 year old female (just finished her cycle) and she is well behaved with all. Everything I have read on the subject says that they are loyal to their families (protective of children) and only act that way if they sense danger. The vet wants him fixed and sent to special training. What do you folks think? I love my boy, but I need to protect my family at the same time. Help us please....


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

They are amazing family dogs! I think you should follow your vets advice, get him fixed and then take up some training with him.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

Fix both dogs and train them both, too many hormones in your house when you have small kids too!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

808GSD said:


> I need some help please, I have a just 3 year young un-fixed male GSD who the day before Christmas Eve started to growl and corner my four year old daughter. He has never done this to her (got him at 6 weeks old), only barks and growls at our 1.5 year old female silky. Than on New Years Eve he started in with my husband too, but he still acts like a puppy with me. Our vet just got back to me an hour ago saying she is not surprised by this, says that most GSD's are a one person dog. *Now we have a 4.5 year old female (just finished her cycle) and she is well behaved with all.* Everything I have read on the subject says that they are loyal to their families (protective of children) and only act that way if they sense danger. The vet wants him fixed and sent to special training. What do you folks think? I love my boy, but I need to protect my family at the same time. Help us please....


I would probably neuter him, and step up your leadership. NOT by sending him away for training, but taking him yourself. Because your female is coming out of a heat cycle, he may be a mess hormonally. Find a good trainer to work with you. I'd also consider having his thyroid tested, he may have an imbalance, but I think it has to do with the bitch in heat. GSD's are loyal and protective with their family , not "one person" dogs(unless the handler has chosen to keep the dog that way).


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

Thank you. I would not send him alone, but would be by him the entire training. Like I stated before, we never had an issue till now. The last time our girl was in cycle, nothing...that is why we thought maybe he was ill, but showing no signs or symptoms. We are going to have him fixed, we were trying for one litter with our female (she is a medical alert pup for our daughter's sz disorder) as we wanted a back up for her. We originally got the male for that purpose, but he was unable to detect them and preferred protection duty.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So if your daughter has a sz disorder, do you think his behavior may have played into it? He may be the opposite of the detection/protection end, instead his mind is thinking "take out the weak"? Or did he corner her to protect her? Was the growl aimed at her or what?
I don't know....I have a female GSD she is a bully(fear based) and takes advantage of anyone showing weakness. How has he acted before when your daughter has seizures? There is more going on here than the fact that he's intact.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe there is, and maybe there isn't. Did your boy get to your bitch? 

Some boys have no change and are just as goofy and loving and sweet after they have achieved the wind and rain, and others note a change in the dog after having bred a bitch. 

The act of breeding is not like lady and the tramp, when the bitch is ready, she is usually, but not always willing to stand for the male. When she is not ready, she will not stand. But a dog that has to chase a bitch down to complete the process, may have to be a little aggressive himself. I don't mean biting or hurting her. But she might be aggressive to him, and he will have to be able to take her crap, and still chase her down and dominate her.

If the breeding was orgestrated -- the bitch is muzzled and/or held in place while the dog does what he needs to do, until a tie happens. Then usually the muzzle can be removed and everyone waits for the tie to release, without the bitch becoming hysterical and dragging him around, etc. Well in this case the dog does not need to exhert a more aggressive nature. And I haven't seen a dog change for the worst after this type of breeding. 

I have heard of a young male attacking a small girl who had been playing with a female who was in heat earlier in the day. This was years ago and a king shepherd, but it is hormones. Sometimes a dog will become full of himself after breeding a female, and he needs to be brought back to reality and quickly.


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

This is in response to Selzer's owners comments. Not sure if they did or did not mate as they were outside in our day kennel while I was sleeping (work nights) and like them to get fresh air if I am home. The last cycle I thought they did, but had ultra sound done and was negative for conception. I makes sense that if he had to fight to get his way, he would be in a higher testosterone lvl.


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

This is in response to onyx'girls comments. Sorry new to this.No that is not it, he has been around her since he was six weeks old and she has at least 2-3 a day. The female is the one who barks and stands guard over her till she is okay (been able to pick up on them since our daughter was nine months old, so we trained her to bark and protect when they happen). The issue with the male just happened out of the blue, the day before they were playing together when we were walking. But thank you for your information, never thought of that as a cause.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They may have bred if you weren't supervising them. That probably does explain his change in behavior. Like Selzer posted, after breeding there is sometimes a change....especially if it was done without supervision. 
Have you had health testing done on them? Hips/elbows/DM?


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

Yes, they both have testing done. We would never tried to have a litter if they were problems. We really just wanted another puppy (with our females bloodline since she can detect the sz's...we know there is no guarantee that one would, but stacking the deck couldn't hurt either). Going to try and work with him over the next few days and if no improvement, will look into a local trainer with GSD experience.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Oh oh, how long does it take for puppies? Im so sorry ur male is acting like this. I never knew mating would cause issues.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gestation is 63 days from the day of ovulation. Without progesterone testing to determine the exact day of ovulation, there is no way to know when in those three weeks she ovulated. 

Some bitches bleed heavier darker blood for a week or so, then a three day window of lighter blood, where she is very fertile, and the following weeks she is coming out. Others have been known to ovulate before any blood, and others have been mated on day 28 and produced a litter. 

So, we really don't know, especially if the day of the tie wasn't known. Of course they say fresh semen will last for up to 7 days. Usually the actual conception doesn't take place until a couple of days after ovulation. It is an interesting study. 

It is pretty safe to say that 60 days from now, you should know one way or the other. 

Whether or not there are puppies, doesn't mean that he did not manage to breed her. Conception will not take place outside the window of fertility. It will not happen if either is sterile. And if the litter naturally aborts up to a certain day, she will resorb the puppies, and it will be like she was never pregnant. 

Usually, if you leave an intact male with an intact female during her cycle, they will mate. If they did acheive a natural mating, or many, then chances are better much better than average that conception will take place. 

I think the OP should be prepared for a litter. Look up the information. X-raying too early is dangerous and ineffective. I think an ultrasound can be done at 4-5 weeks, pretty safely. X-rays should be about 56 days -- long enough for the bones to calcify, else you will not see puppies on the x-ray. Less exposure is better. And, the first trimester -- the first three weeks, most of which time the little pups are not yet attached, this is when she is most likely to abort.


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

selzer said:


> Gestation is 63 days from the day of ovulation. Without progesterone testing to determine the exact day of ovulation, there is no way to know when in those three weeks she ovulated. t.


Holy smokes. Ive been living under a rock I though it was between 3 to 4 months. 
I just read that this was something that OP wantedso I'm glad that at least she's prepared. I thought it was something that just happened unexpectedly. I'm wondering if they had mated before, why do you think is it only now that the male dog is becoming aggressive?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Msmaria said:


> Holy smokes. Ive been living under a rock I though it was between 3 to 4 months.
> I just read that this was something that OP wantedso I'm glad that at least she's prepared. I thought it was something that just happened unexpectedly. I'm wondering if they had mated before, why do you think is it only now that the male dog is becoming aggressive?


Nope just two months. I always think it is funny when people like to liken dogs being bred back to back to women having babies one after another. A bitch is pregnant for 2 months and she is done raising her pups when they are 8 weeks. A woman takes 9 months of pregnancy, and then raises the kid for 18, 20, or 30 years. It is a totally different scenario. But kind of O. T. 

Some males are ready to breed a female at 12 months. Some at 18 months. This bitch is older than him by a couple of years. She may not have let him complete the job the last time. It's really hard to say. They thought he may have bred her last heat. Maybe he was not ready then, or she wouldn't stand for him. It's hard to say. 

It is all conjecture that that is what is going on. If I was a betting person, I would denfinitely put a few bucks on it being the case. But it is just a guess.


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

Well thank you all for your imput. Will continue to monitor the situation, but he appears to be okay with my husband tonight. We just got back from an hour walk, my husband and daughter with our female and my male walking with me. No growls or barking at them during the walk (of course walked in the front and kept his attention focus on me), but once we were back at home and putting them into their kennels for the night, our boy started to growl/bark at our daughter as she stood by the stairs. Will kept working with him and if in a week or so he is still the same, will contact a trainer who works with GSDs.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if my dog cornered and growled at my 4 year old 
young daughter i would rehome him or give him back 
to his breeder. i would start the process of getting rid
of him before he finished growling at my daughter. my 
children come first. your dog cornered your daughter then 
growled at her later on when you were crating him and he 
growled at your husband. he growls at your other dog. family 
safety comes first in my book and i wouldn't take any chances.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Agreed Doggie dad. This is an accident that instead of waiting to happen, WILL happen.

Ultrasounds can be done as early as 28 days, as soon as implantation happens at around day 15 of the pregnancy, the hearts will show on ultrasound. It is always fun to see the little black balls with a tiny heartbeat.


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## debzxs (Nov 16, 2013)

My German Shepherd puppy is only 4 Months old. He doesn't like for me to touch his food or to touch him or get near him when he's eating . he kind of snaps and bites me(not hard but in a way to say please get away from food). He doesnt do it with my boyfriend , only with me. He has done the same behavior when I touch something he is messing with or something he plays with. Doesnt do it with his toys or treats. I do not know what's wrong.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

I would never be breeding a dog that may or may not have temperament and aggression issues. You don't need to be reproducing that.

It seems like you really have your hands full with two young children, one with special needs, two dogs, one with some training issues, and since you are asking your vet for advice and not a training/breeding mentor, I'm assuming you probably don't have a ton of experience whelping litters, matching pedigrees, and raising puppies.

If there hasn't been an accidental breeding I would advise against breeding at all, with any dogs. There are lots and lots of breeders out there that could help you get a dog that can alert for your daughter. You're actually probably more likely to find a puppy that way than breeding your dog to a random male and hoping for a pup that fit's your needs. I would suggest going the older dog route if you require another alert dog on top of the one you already have.

Good luck.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

808GSD said:


> Our vet just got back to me an hour ago saying she is not surprised by this, says that most GSD's are a one person dog. .


I just wanted to add - even though a GSD may favor one person in the family, it should not growl and threaten other members of the family. This is not normal behavior for a GSD.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

808GSD said:


> I need some help please, I have a just 3 year young un-fixed male GSD who the day before Christmas Eve started to growl and corner my four year old daughter. He has never done this to her (got him at 6 weeks old), only barks and growls at our 1.5 year old female silky. Than on New Years Eve he started in with my husband too, but he still acts like a puppy with me. Our vet just got back to me an hour ago saying she is not surprised by this, says that most GSD's are a one person dog. Now we have a 4.5 year old female (just finished her cycle) and she is well behaved with all. Everything I have read on the subject says that they are loyal to their families (protective of children) and only act that way if they sense danger. The vet wants him fixed and sent to special training. What do you folks think? I love my boy, but I need to protect my family at the same time. Help us please....


This dog has anxiety issues with being rehomed that will likely require more time, effort and vigilance than you are currently prepared for. An accident waiting to happen. The longer you hang on, the harder it will be to let go. He might fit in perfectly fine with an adult only home and be in 7th heaven. Sometimes we try to make square pegs fit in round holes, thinking we are the "only" savior option for the dog. Don't let anyone make you think such. 

My two cents. I agree with DoggieDad.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Lilie said:


> I just wanted to add - even though a GSD may favor one person in the family, it should not growl and threaten other members of the family. This is not normal behavior for a GSD.


Exactly!

Get a new vet and understand that this behavior is[ I] not [/I] acceptable. 

I do not think that neutering will solve the problem.

Stable GSDs do not threaten family members.

Find a new home for him. But neuter him first so that he will not be bred.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> I would never be breeding a dog that may or may not have temperament and aggression issues. You don't need to be reproducing that.
> 
> It seems like you really have your hands full with two young children, one with special needs, two dogs, one with some training issues, and since you are asking your vet for advice and not a training/breeding mentor, I'm assuming you probably don't have a ton of experience whelping litters, matching pedigrees, and raising puppies.
> 
> ...


It wasn't an accidental breeding. They left the bitch and dog together in hopes to produce a litter. 

Problems in temperament occured in the three -- almost three year old dog, after the breeding had probably taken place. This is not all that uncommon for young males who have started breeding to have an adjustment in their behavior. 

Lastly, I just don't know if she is better off breeding her bitch that she _knows _can alert siezures in order to get a puppy who can perform the service, or to try to purchase another. I mean, they a already whent that route without the results they were hoping for. 

I guess, I do not see this quite as black and white.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

one pup that _might_ be able to alert to a seizure out of what, 10-12 puppies with the tendency for poor temperaments, going to new homes, all intact and potentially breedable?
as said in other places on this message board you'd have better luck going back to the original breeder of the bitch for another pup rather than trying to recreate one when god only knows what temperament and issues you'll get from the _other half_ of the breeding. 
quite honestly this style of breeding is why this breed is in so much trouble.


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

Once again, thank you all for your opinions. Just want to clear a few things up. 1. We have had our male since he was six weeks old, never had a problem before with either our young daughter or any other person till the day before Christmas Eve. 2. We have never left the two GSDs with a young child unattended, ever. In fact, they only go off leash in our back yard with my husband or I there at all times. 3. We are going to have them both fixed soon as we know either way if our girl going to have pups or not. Do them both at the same time. 4. Both GSDs have been to training, it was not an issue of not doing that, we are going to have him attend a more advance training in about three weeks. 5. As for our vet, she has been taking care of all our pets for over sixteen years, I think she may see a side that all of you are not able to see. 6. I Will not send away, he is part of the family and I will get him the help he needs. 7. I may not be as experience in GSD's as many as you appear to be, but I was raised with at least three growing up (K-9), so I do know a little about handling them. 8. The boy cost us 1800.00 (I know some say that is nothing compare to a human life), but to bring a fully trained medical alert here would cost over 20k and that we can't afford. 8. He has come down quite a bit in the las two days, I think I forgot to mention our silky was also in heat at the same time. Both the girls are over their cycle, so maybe the person who said it was an imbalance due to all the hormones was right. I shall keep you updated as I can. Thank you all and Aloha!


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm 808GSD's husband. Majority of the responses have been very insightful. However, several of you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. I've been training GSD and other breeds since the 80's, though I have never bred. Our GSD's are trained in German and sign languages starting from several weeks old and are CGC certified. They are NOT rescue dogs. ALL our dogs are trained to allow food and toys to be taken from their mouth or dropped on command. Our dogs have never shown aggression, even when attacked by loose neighborhood dogs! This change has only happened in the last two weeks. Anyone that knows about medical alert dogs knows that there is no way to guarantee a dog will be able to detect a medical condition even within the same litter let alone same breeder. Anyone willing to fund $20k per dog until we find a dog that can definitively detect my daughter's seizures, please contact me. 


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

your male cannot detect them; what makes you so certain the puppies-to-be will take after the dam and not the sire? 
curious what lines you're striving to propagate and why you thought breeding the female would be a better choice than going 
back to the breeder you got her from? 
unless the male came from there too


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> your male cannot detect them; what makes you so certain the puppies-to-be will take after the dam and not the sire?
> curious what lines you're striving to propagate and why you thought breeding the female would be a better choice than going
> back to the breeder you got her from?
> unless the male came from there too


I don't think they indicated they were so certain of anything. It is worth a try though. My question is, at what point does a dog indicate siezures, would you know by 8 weeks, 16 weeks? How would you choose which pups to place and which to hang on to? 

All in all, they have a better reason for breeding their bitch than most people do, including most of the breeders out there. 

There are a LOT of hormones flying around there with two intact bitches and an intact dog though. I'd probably spay the bitch you aren't planning to breed and the dog. If this breeding doesn't take, or produce what you want, you may want to find a different stud for your bitch, and going back to your breeder for help with finding the best dog for what you are trying to produce might be a thought.


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

Okay guys, you all make good points on the subject. First we got the female from a breeder almost 5 years ago, since than he has been arrested for running a puppy mill (though both of ours do have impressive blood lines). Our male was brought from a military family that had a litter (their female is related to ours...older by 2litters, and the father is a German GSD that they picked up while over seas). We only have one professional breeder here, and we really didn't like the way the dogs/puppies looked or were being raised. 
And you did have a valid question, there is no way to pick a puppy from the litter, we lucked out with our girl (we originally brought her for S & R duty, but being all black, she could not take afternoon sun and training) so we just made her the family pet. It was after our daughter started having the sz's and stop breathing, that the doc (who also trains/shows dobby's) said to look into training her for that since she was able to bark (to get our attention) and get our daughter to snap out of it (by licking her). 
Oh and to the person who was upset about bring all the puppies into unprepared families, we have five police officers waiting and willing to take the puppies (three of them work with the local K-9 unit, and the other two have had them for years). 
I know you all have strong opinions on the subject, all I can say is we will look into every possible way to fix this, and if it can't then I will find him a loving home with one of the above law enforcement officers.
Oh yeah, he only growled once today at our daughter, so it's looking better each day. God Bless


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

808GSD said:


> Okay guys, you all make good points on the subject. First we got the female from a breeder almost 5 years ago, since than he has been arrested for running a puppy mill (though both of ours do have impressive blood lines). Our male was brought from a military family that had a litter (their female is related to ours...older by 2litters, and the father is a German GSD that they picked up while over seas). We only have one professional breeder here, and we really didn't like the way the dogs/puppies looked or were being raised.
> And you did have a valid question, there is no way to pick a puppy from the litter, we lucked out with our girl (we originally brought her for S & R duty, but being all black, she could not take afternoon sun and training) so we just made her the family pet. It was after our daughter started having the sz's and stop breathing, that the doc (who also trains/shows dobby's) said to look into training her for that since she was able to bark (to get our attention) and get our daughter to snap out of it (by licking her).
> Oh and to the person who was upset about bring all the puppies into unprepared families, we have five police officers waiting and willing to take the puppies (three of them work with the local K-9 unit, and the other two have had them for years).
> I know you all have strong opinions on the subject, all I can say is we will look into every possible way to fix this, and if it can't then I will find him a loving home with one of the above law enforcement officers.
> ...


OP, I'm glad you've decided to neuter/spay your dogs. The rest of this isn't for you, you sound like you are becoming more knowledgeable and honest with yourself about the repercussions surrounding breeding animals.

Selzer....now that you know the bitch was from a convicted and arrested puppy mill, you still going to commit to your usual diatribe of "this one litter isn't going to be the downfall of the breed." Because in my *humble* opinion, this is the exact situation and thinking that occurs over and over again within this breed that is a major contributing factor to it's "downfall." What's worse, in my humble opinion, is a *breeder*, such as yourself, coming on and defending/supporting this type of thinking, instead of giving advice and knowledge on why this isn't the ideal way to go about getting another dog like the pet. If I go back into your posts and count how many times you say, "this one litter isn't going to be the downfall of the breed," I bet we'd have a hefty amount of dogs/puppies on our hands.

I guess you and I will never see eye to eye on what a "reputable" and "responsible" breeder is. In my opinion, it goes beyond the actual breeding itself, and flows over into educating those who don't know any better....not supporting putting pets together because this one litter "won't contribute much to the downfall of the breed." I know you didn't say that in this thread, in this thread you instead blindly defended someone putting two dogs together with little to no knowledge of pedigrees, strengths/weaknesses, experience, genetic issues and how genetics are passed down (including the trait they are hoping to duplicate), etc....

You are supporting creating an entire litter of puppies, in hopes that maybe one will be what they need. Even that is a blind guess, because you can't tell at 8 weeks whether a dog will alert to seizures. They already have three dogs, only one of which is doing what they need....and the lack of neutering and spaying is creating major issues between all the dogs....the most major being the *adult male growling and cornering a human toddler*. I took your posts as a, "oh it's okay, he's probably just crazy because of all the hormones running around." I don't care...what matters is, a child was in danger, the situation wasn't controlled, and now there are issues. Thank God this isn't a worse situation, ie he attacked the child. 

However, this>>"he only growled once today" doesn't make me feel much better. My adult male dog growls at my four year old child he get's his clock cleaned....he does more than growl or worse, corners the child, he's gone...and not to a police officer friend's. No one who works with my husband, including the police canine handlers, would take a dog that think's it's okay to do this with children...nor would any of them take a dog from a litter like this for anything other than, hopefully, a family pet that doesn't get aggressive with children.

OP, I truly appreciate your honestly and self reflection on this entire situation. I really hope you don't have 10 puppies on your hands on top of everything else you are dealing with. If you do, please find a local breeder to assist you. Someone with hands on experience, not strictly internet advice, will give you a world of help.

Good luck!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It's rather concerning to me that your husband said he's been training GSD's since the 80's but this issue doesn't seem to be one he's been able to "fix"? (not being sarcastic or snooty, just an observation)

While it may be 'hormonal', I am sure there are MANY breeders and probably some on this forum who have stud dogs that aren't cornering their kids/humans in a situation like this.

I'm wondering if maybe the dog was picking up on your daughters medical issues, (not saying she was going to have a seizure) but that something is different about her? 

While it may be lessening with time, I wouldn't trust him with your daughter at all. 

A dog living with a family this long since puppyhood, has no business growling/nipping/biting ANYONE in their immediate household, I don't care if it's hormonal or not. Behaving this way with a child is bad enough, but an adult who's a trainer? He'd be getting a major attitude adjustment .

First thing I would do, is a complete medical work up. If that's clear, I doubt neutering will change temperament, but I would neuter him/spay your females because they WILL come into heat again, and maybe send him off his rocker neutered or not.

Impressive bloodlines doesn't guarantee good temperament.

Honestly, I think you've got a ticking time bomb on your hands and just because he only "growled at her once today", doesn't mean he's in the clear at all.

Just to add I do agree with Dani, one litter here, one litter there, they add up.

I hope you can get some resolution.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

Did you use correction when the dog growled?
If so, and the dog growled again, I would use more convincing corrections.
If not, I would use convincing corrections.
It sounds like you know what you are doing with training GSD, but I don't understand how a well trained obedient GSD growls at a young chil (family member). I don't have much experience with this type of behavior, so I am not trying to say that I know the answer, but it sounds to me like this is behavior that should be corrected quickly and timely before something horrible happens.
I wish you best of luck.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The dog is three and just started growling at the child out of the blue? If that's the case, I don't buy it's a temperament issue. I would lean toward medical and rule that out first. The dog has been part of the family for a long time, dogs don't just start growling/cornering family members for no reasons out of the blue. Maybe he does sense something and doesn't know how to react, who knows?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

llombardo said:


> The dog is three and just started growling at the child out of the blue? If that's the case, I don't buy it's a temperament issue. I would lean toward medical and rule that out first. The dog has been part of the family for a long time, dogs don't just start growling/cornering family members for no reasons out of the blue. Maybe he does sense something and doesn't know how to react, who knows?


That's assuming there haven't been signs all along, that were manifested and made worse by the frustration of being surrounded by TWO females in heat. Plenty of owners (myself included) can easily miss signs and signals of discomfort and frustration.

We aren't talking about a random growl and nip.....we are talking about a dog *cornering* and growling at a *child*. I don't care WHAT is going on with the dog. I very VERY rarely suggest extreme methods being taken, but things would have gotten extreme after that in my house, immediately. Also, if the dog STILL thinks it's okay to growl a month later...no way. He still thinks he can do what he wants to the child.

This thread is frustrating to me for so many reasons lol. The one I haven't touched on is using the proximity of a LEO as some kind of knowledge and clearance to breed. My husband is a LEO, his best friend (and his wife and kids) are best friends with my family. This best friend has been a k9 handler for years. He knows NOTHING about breeding, or what is a "good strong dog" when looking at the raw, untrained, unproven, product. He knows a lot about training HIS dog, and the basics of training other dogs. 

Just because someone is a LEO doesn't mean they know ANYTHING about breeding or what is a "good dog." They know what they've been taught about their dog and training. I'm not saying K9 LE handlers don't know a lot about training, especially if they are training other handlers. That's it though, 95% of the time trainer/handler does NOT equal breeder or *most of the time being able to evaluate a raw product. 

Unfortunately, a lot of them get on their high horse and think that because they've handled a great dog, they know how to create that. It's why you see SO many people saying, well my dog's grandfather/father, was a police k9...so that means he's a serious police dog. No. You don't know if that dog will genetically reproduce itself, if it was genetically paired with an appropriate female, if the female's fear traits (for example) will win out over the K9's courage traits....you just don't know....but the line "father was a police k9" is a big selling point for the unknowing, when it comes to byb.

ETA: I know a lot of successful breeders have dogs in police work. That's not what I am talking about. I am talking about a LEO breeding his dog (or suggesting a breeding would be good) because he wants that dog again, with little knowledge other than he likes his dog and found a bitch in season.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DaniFani said:


> OP, I'm glad you've decided to neuter/spay your dogs. The rest of this isn't for you, you sound like you are becoming more knowledgeable and honest with yourself about the repercussions surrounding breeding animals.
> 
> Selzer....now that you know the bitch was from a convicted and arrested puppy mill, you still going to commit to your usual diatribe of "this one litter isn't going to be the downfall of the breed." Because in my *humble* opinion, this is the exact situation and thinking that occurs over and over again within this breed that is a major contributing factor to it's "downfall." What's worse, in my humble opinion, is a *breeder*, such as yourself, coming on and defending/supporting this type of thinking, instead of giving advice and knowledge on why this isn't the ideal way to go about getting another dog like the pet. If I go back into your posts and count how many times you say, "this one litter isn't going to be the downfall of the breed," I bet we'd have a hefty amount of dogs/puppies on our hands.
> 
> ...


Dani, I don't think much is served to ream out new posters the moment they join the site. Their bitch has been bred -- probably better than 95% chance anyhow. And it wasn't an accident. 

At this point the OP needs to decide how to manage the situation that has arrisen after the breeding of their bitch with their dog. This is not good. I never said that it was good. But it is possible that the behavior is directly linked to having bred an older bitch on his own, and another bitch in the house also being in heat. Very possible. I encouraged spaying the bitch they were not intending on breeding, and the dog. 

I then encouraged working with their breeder to find a stud dog that would be a good candidate for producing what they want to produce. 

My crime is to not assume that these new people are totally clueless, and have a couple of geneticly messed up dogs that should never be bred, right off the bat. 

Dani, the vast majority of people who get a major whupping when they arrive on the site for having bred their bitch, well they are going to leave thinking we are a bunch of fanatics. They will breed their bitch, and breed them again. Because everything said here will have been taken with the same attitude once they feel that we are all crazy. 

The litter is on its way. It is possible that you might encourage them to spay/abort on this litter. Otherwise it is coming, most likely. If we are not a bunch of asses, then maybe these people hang around and learn some stuff. Over the course of six months on this forum, by the time those bitches come in heat again, they may have read and seen enough that they understand a lot more of what goes into responsible breeding. And the reasons not to breed at all. 

Your way, everyone goes bye-bye, and does exactly what they were planning on doing all along. 

Treating them with respect and being helpful, maybe they stick around and come to their own conclusions about why or why not they should breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

JakodaCD OA said:


> It's rather concerning to me that your husband said he's been training GSD's since the 80's but this issue doesn't seem to be one he's been able to "fix"? (not being sarcastic or snooty, just an observation)
> 
> *While it may be 'hormonal', I am sure there are MANY breeders and probably some on this forum who have stud dogs that aren't cornering their kids/humans in a situation like this*.
> 
> ...


Bolded: probably very true. I have had a few dogs that never showed any behavior changes after having been bred. However, most breeders do orchestrate breedings, and do not leave a dog to chase down and conquere the bitch. If you have a willing and submissive bitch who is in standing heat, that might not be a problem, if you have a strong dominant maiden female, throughout the heat cycle, the dog will have to be that much stronger and more dominant than she to succeed. And some maiden dogs can be a real pain, and bitches can be intolerant of them jumping on, jumping off, etc. It can cause a change in behavior. The temperament is what it is, but this sort of thing can bring out some attitudes that might have better been left untapped.


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## 808GSD (Jan 5, 2014)

To all whom have had input into this issue, it's been almost 6 weeks since I wrote looking for help. Our female is not pregnant, so both her and our male will be getting fixed in the next few weeks. As for the behavior, it appears to have disappeared, no more growling, no more trying to corner our daughter. So we are back to square one looking for a puppy to train as a back up to our female as a medical alert dog. Since the GSD availability here is slim and every rescue I have written, has been polite, but refused to fly us a puppy even if we pay for everything, we have no real choice but to give up and hope that maybe someday someone will have an extra puppy not born here that they would be willing to sell. Once again, thank you all for your information and God Bless.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

I read your first post and your last post, I'm a little confused? With your first post regarding your 3yo GSD growling and cornering your child and husband, I wonder if medically everything is good with him. I'm not sure if the fact that he is still entire has anything to do with this because my neutered male will sometimes go into a guard dog stance and bark if my husband or son (he is 18) walks into the room wearing something different, it is as though for a second there he just didn't recognise the person and reacted, this could have something to do with low B12 levels. It is your choice whether you fix him, but I would NOT send him to someone else for training.

With your last post, that's great he hasn't reacted like this in the last 6 weeks, I'm a bit confused about the rest of your story (sorry)


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## mcdanfam (Aug 27, 2013)

So glad to hear that you were able to keep your dog....good luck with finding a puppy to train...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My guess is still hormones. Especially since nothing more in six weeks. Good luck. Fixing everyone ought to do the trick. If not, then the boy for sure is one you would never want to breed. Let's hope that is the end of it. 

Did you do an x-ray to check for pregnancy, or have the nine-weeks from Ovulation date expired? 

Nothing wrong with checking into some NILIF, and upping the training and exercise. Wear his but out mentally and physically, and I would be very surprised if there are any other incidents.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Personally, I don't think you have any problem with your dog inside your family. It is typical for many young males *to pretend* *that they are guarding* you. He was growling only because nobody except your son or husband was present. He could well growl at you, if you came into your son bedroom at night to check on him and found your dog laying at his bed. To protect - is something in GSD, which has to have some sort of outcome, when your dog is barking at birds in the garden it also could be read as a wish to protect. That sort of behaviour could be observed when nothing really threatens the dog in his life. But, I should warn you - one day your dog may encounter a real threat, and his instincts would call him to meet the challenge. These growls are the signs of possible agressiveness. If he attacks even some stupid drunkard - you would be in a trouble. Train him to become obedient in order to avoid such a risk.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I guess some folks have a much higher threshold for acceptable behaviour than me! My dog growls at me and/or corner a child!!??!! It's on, dominant dog collar,drag leash, muzzle and re-education time! 

He doesn't bark at birds, the neighbors ,the neighbors dogs in their backyard or the neighbors in their backyard. I've only heard him growl twice and he meant business! 

First time was when he was new, he growled at company! Muzzle time, re-education time! The second time was when he was defending me from two charging dogs, I tripped and fell while I was defending him he stepped in front of me to "deter" the one dog that kept coming!

I haven't heard him growl now in 6 years, if he growls it means some serious crap is going down!

But as I say some people have higher thresholds for acceptable behaviour.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> I guess some folks have a much higher threshold for acceptable behaviour than me! My dog growls at me and/or corner a child!!??!! It's on, dominant dog collar,drag leash, muzzle and re-education time!
> 
> He doesn't bark at birds, the neighbors ,the neighbors dogs in their backyard or the neighbors in their backyard. I've only heard him growl twice and he meant business!
> 
> ...


IMHO, the appropriate way to approach the situation depends on why the dog is growling. If it's being a pushy jerk and overstepping its boundaries, then a physical correction approach could be the right approach, and very successful.

If the dog is fearful, corrections could make the situation worse. In this case, building the dogs confidence and trust in the owner would be the best course of action.

David Winners


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> IMHO, the appropriate way to approach the situation depends on why the dog is growling. If it's being a pushy jerk and overstepping its boundaries, then a physical correction approach could be the right approach, and very successful.
> 
> If the dog is fearful, corrections could make the situation worse. In this case, building the dogs confidence and trust in the owner would be the best course of action.
> 
> David Winners


You'll get no argument from me! We weren't there I don't think the OP was there?

I was merely stating how "I" deal/dealt with it in my case. The collar nor the muzzle ever came into play! But...it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!

Re-education was what I did. One unwarranted growl (in my opinion) was enough for me! My dog said "I got a problem here!" It was my job to figure out what the problem was and keep everyone safe while I did.

My Rocky, was sending me a message and I didn't need the whole book!  before I took corrective action!

But as I say some people have a higher threshold for unacceptable behaviour than I do?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip18 said:


> You'll get no argument from me! We weren't there I don't think the OP was there?
> 
> I was merely stating how "I" deal/dealt with it in my case. The collar nor the muzzle ever came into play! But...it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!
> 
> ...


I was just pointing out the difference in training approaches for different situations. Not saying you did anything wrong at all. If it works and you have the relationship you are looking for with your dog, your training was successful.

I don't understand what your comment about higher threshold for acceptable behavior had to do with my post. I didn't state what I accept for behavior in my house. I would call my dogs well adjusted and respectful. 

If you are referring to past posts of mine regarding my Cane Corso not being corrected for growling, I can accept that we have different approaches to communication with our dogs. I do not view growling, on its own, as aggression. He is allowed to growl if he is uncomfortable with a situation. Let's say the granddaughter is pestering him because she wants to play dress up and he wants a nap. He is allowed to say no, by growling, and she knows to leave him alone.

I'm sure many on here would disagree with that line of thinking, and I'm ok with that. I can read that dog and I know he isn't being aggressive or fearful in his protest. He's a vocal dog. I actually like that as my granddaughter has had the opportunity to learn a lot from being around Lucian. There is nothing subtle about him, and she has learned to observe the dog and tell what he's thinking.

He doesn't have to be stressed about the situation because he knows if he gives signals that he doesn't like something, we will pay attention and respect him.

DISCLAIMER: if you don't 100% understand why your dog is growling, you should seek the help of a professional. Misreading a dog can get people hurt badly.

Sorry for the hijack OP. 

David Winners


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The dog has been good for six weeks. 

I think it just might be possible that this young male, living unrestricted with a maiden bitch in heat , just may have had his hormones out of wack, and was a bit full of himself. Some dogs after breeding do have a bit of a change in their character, and some dogs will act different when there is a bitch in heat close by. Non-orchestrated breeding calls for more  on the part of the boy.

Bitch goes out of heat, everything calms down, the boy got back to his normal state. She is going to fix the dog and the bitch, and hopefully the scene will not repeat itself. 

I think some situations will tweak the responses of our pets. I mean, if your dog is sensitive of fireworks, and there have been fireworks going off for an hour and a half, and the dog has been in the corner shaking, and some two year old is over there spraying him with a water bottle or climbing on him, he might growl or snap. Without the fireworks that same dog might have been able to manage the water bottle or the mauling by the toddler. Think about that bitch in heat as three weeks of fireworks, and during the middle a couple of days of grand finale. 

I don't see it as impossible.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I see it as likely, especially since the behavior stopping coincided with the end of the heat cycle.

David Winners


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I see it as likely, especially since the behavior stopping coincided with the end of the heat cycle.
> 
> David Winners


No I was not talking about anything you said in this post or certainly not in a past post??? I was referencing this post and the growling and child cornering.

That's specifically what I meant by "higher threshold for unacceptable behaviour," Sounds like the issue is solved, so it's all good!  

I think we all agree a dogs growl means something?? Our job is to figure out what it means and take appropriate action.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I see it as likely, especially since the behavior stopping coincided with the end of the heat cycle.
> 
> David Winners


No I was not talking about anything you said in a past thread??? I was referencing this thread and the growling and child cornering?

That's specifically what I meant by "higher threshold for unacceptable behaviour," Sounds like the issue is solved, so it's all good!  But for me my dogs "don't growl or threaten me or family members, action is required! 

I think we all agree a dogs growl means something?? Our job is to figure out what it means and take appropriate action.


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