# Weight and Hip Bones?



## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

I thought I was pretty knowledgeable about my dog but im going to have to refer to the experts here. Justice is three and a half and im seeing some things for the first time in her that I don't know if I should be concerned with. 

First of all, I cannot get her to gain some weight. She is between 55 and 60 lbs and although the doc says shes healthy ide like her to put on a few pounds for the winter (few meaning maybe 5 to ten). Shes eating a good amount of Timberwolf but its just not putting the weight on her. 

Second, at the base of her spine her two bones on each side, im going to call hip bones but I dont think theyr the hips are just protruding almost disgustingly. This may be fixed with the food problem. 

What is going on with this dog??


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Photos would be very helpful. (Several photos, including side profile and shots looking straight down at her). 

It's hard to judge WITH photos, but without them, impossible. 

Also, how tall is she? Do you know how large her dam and sire were? Any info on her litter-mates and how big they (especially the females) are?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Also, how is her digestion -- any loose stools, etc.?


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

I dont have any information on her siblings but her mother was 90 lbs and dad was 110-20. Much MUCH larger than she is. 

As far as her digestion. shes been having some issues. she was having not watery stool but definitly not formed up. It was also yellow. We switched the food from Pinnacle duck to Timberwolf Fish. Her stool for the most part is formed up but now she is messing 4-6 times a day! She pees almost every time I take her out where before she was peeing 3 to 4 times a day. I thought it was a parasite so we used two different meds to deworm her. Here are some pics of her hips. 

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g258/hidroshock/DSCN2211.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g258/hidroshock/DSCN2210.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g258/hidroshock/DSCN2207.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g258/hidroshock/DSCN2208.jpg


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

This is from a website for Humans, but I find it very useful when we're trying to analyze what poop means. 



> Quote:
> 4. Gray stools, pale stools, putty or clay colored stools may be seen in hepatitis, gallbladder disorders, or malabsorption conditions. Bile salts in the stool excreted by the liver give it a normal brown color. Obstruction to bile flow out of the liver (you may see the word "cholestasis"), or liver infections like viral hepatitis (A, B, C, etc.), may produce clay colored stools. Possible causes for clay colored stool result from problems in the biliary system (the drainage system of the gallbladder, liver, and pancreas): *Malabsorption problems can cause undigested fat in the stool (steatorrhea) which is characterized by foul smelling, light yellow to gray, greasy or frothy stools.*This may also be caused by low bile output.
> 
> Stool starts out green , then turns bright yellow as it goes through the digestive tract. It is bile and bacteria that finally turn it brown. *Yellow or green stools can indicate stool is passing through the digestive tract too rapidly *not giving it a chance to change colour. Bright yellow stools can also indicate not enough bile / bilary obstruction.



http://www.enzymestuff.com/rtstools.htm

Have you done any other tests on her? It's hard to judge from your photos, but she does look a bit thin to me. It might be time to run a few more tests.

I'd certainly test her for a urinary tract infection, based on what you've told us. And if she's pooping that often (and it's soft), a giardia antigen test is something I'd request.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

This was the clearest for me to see that yes, she is underweight:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g258/hidroshock/DSCN2210.jpg

I would have some tests run -- you need to see a vet and rule out a few things. With GSDs, certainly you need to be concerned about EPI and SIBO (malabsorption and bacterial overgrowth), and there are a few other things that might be contributing to this. 

Off to the vet!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Lisa, if this pup has had something as simple as giardia for months, she wouldn't be absorbing food because it's going through her intestines too fast. Would you recommend tests for EPI and SIBO now or do step-by-step tests, ruling out as you went? 

My concern is that the OP's vet thinks the dog is at a good weight. There may be resistance to running all the tests at once. 

Just kind of thinking aloud over here....


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good thinking 3K9.

First thing is that I would find a new vet.

....epd0407, do you know the name of the meds that you have tried? Panacur? Drontal? Flagyl? Etc?


I was thinking food issues, which made me think more towards bacterial overgrowth than giardia, but it certainly could be either. And the urination thing...food allergy, infection....????


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

With runny poop, fecal matter is bound to migrate across skin and/or fur. I bet it's a UTI. 

Anymore, I expect a UTI whenever I see runny stools, esp in females, but males too. They go hand-in-hand (paw-in-paw?) it seems. Migrating fecal matter; diarrhea weakens the immune system. I'm never surprised when I see them together.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

That makes complete sense regarding the UTI -- a secondary condition.

You know, even if the vet didn't want to test, as there are so many false negatives, there are still things I would be doing.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Not that anyone asked me







but I'd have Giardia Antigen and a Urinalysis run - if Giardia negative I'd think about the EPI and SIBO


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

We always want to know what you think, Barb (especially when you agree with me!







)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I have no arguments with that, sounds like you ladies have the logical order!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I remember that Dante was eating like 6-7 cups of food a day back when he had Giardia - dropped in half once the Giardia was gone!

Of course I went about it backwards, had EPI and SIBO and Antigen all done at the same time


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTGood thinking 3K9.
> 
> First thing is that I would find a new vet.
> 
> ...


She has had the Giardia test done several times with nothing showing. # my request they ran a course of Panicure along with round of Probiotics. When the matter didnt solve itself I suspected a tape worm as she would lick her butt alot @ night. I called up and told the vet what I thought and they put her on Drontal. 

She did the round of this and when it didnt solve the issue I decided on the food change. She was on Pinnacle Duck. The doc suspected the loose stool was a food allergy and wanted to put her on a prescription science diet. Being dead set against SD I went and found a food she could eat Timberwolf Fish without the excessive scratching with no poultry protein. Surprisingly this worked and her stool is formed up and is brown again all be it crapping upwards of 6 and 7 times a day!. Looking to hae her gain weight I increased her food substantially but as you can see its not working too well other than the extreme poop factor. 

The urine I suspected could be the increase in protein from 22 percent in Pinnacle to TW 26. Im suspecting Diabetes could be the problem but im hoping not. ???


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: epd0407......She has had the Giardia test done several times with nothing showing. # my request they ran a course of Panicure along with round of Probiotics. When the matter didnt solve itself I suspected a tape worm as she would lick her butt alot @ night. I called up and told the vet what I thought and they put her on Drontal.
> 
> She did the round of this and when it didnt solve the issue I decided on the food change. She was on Pinnacle Duck. The doc suspected the loose stool was a food allergy and wanted to put her on a prescription science diet. Being dead set against SD I went and found a food she could eat Timberwolf Fish without the excessive scratching with no poultry protein. Surprisingly this worked and her stool is formed up and is brown again all be it crapping upwards of 6 and 7 times a day!. Looking to hae her gain weight I increased her food substantially but as you can see its not working too well other than the extreme poop factor.
> 
> The urine I suspected could be the increase in protein from 22 percent in Pinnacle to TW 26. Im suspecting Diabetes could be the problem but im hoping not. ???


I don't know why, but diabetes would be last on my list right now....

Okay, I'm inclined now to put giardia pretty lower on the list now too, and consider more of a bacterial overgrowth, which may or may not be accompanied by pancreatic insufficiency. Food sensitivity/allergy most definitely involved.

My GSD licks his butt a lot when he has either too much salmon (the fat maybe?) in his diet, or too many digestive enzymes, or something with garlic in it. Really werid things can apparently trigger that in our boy.... (Btw, if the panacur helped at all, it should be repeated about 3 weeks after the first round.) 

More food in these instances almost never seems to work -- more frequent small amounts might, but more is not necessarily better.

You can try some digestive enzymes -- if there is improvement, then you know that's an issue, or you can test for EPI, or do both. 

You can test for SIBO, or you can try some Tylan or flagyl, or you can do both.

Or.....you can even play around with the diet some more, but the problem with that is that you could mess up the food, when the problem lies elsewhere.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Both the Pinnacle and the Timberwolf have grains in them. Wonder what would happen if you tried grain free food? My dog is allergic to every grain that's out there, rice and even oats. Perhaps even a home cooked or raw diet, starting with an elimination diet, but she is thin, so gosh, we'd have to feed her A LOT of chicken (or turkey) to keep her calories up. 

What formula of Timberwolf? I'm curious how she's reacting to what percentage of fat. The Pinnacle is only 13% fat, which isn't really very high, even for a SIBO dog

It's probably time to look at SIBO and EPI testing then. 

But was the giardia test the ANTIGEN test? Giardia don't shed cells all the time, so you can get false negatives.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

Im sure I can request another round of Panicure. They suggested a blood test today which I may take them up on. As far as the diet, ill try more frequent meals. Anyone else have any insight?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

yeah, diabetes is really low on my list too. 

And too much food all at once WILL cause diarrhea. It's probably the #1 cause of diarrhea we see in puppies and newly acquired dogs. Dogs that need a lot of food need to eat it in small doses over a period of time.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

I dont know if it was the Antigen test. She is on the Fish "Salmon" formula. Also, she did the Evo RM and did excelent on it other than the frequent urination.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

What blood test did the vet suggest? Have you run a full blood panel? I always like to suggest one of those in dogs like yours, just to make sure we're not missing something big and systemic (but often easily treated). Toss in a thyroid test too. 

Sometimes we get stuck thinking about the GI tract and the issue is somewhere else entirely. 

Then, I would ask my vet about the TLI/Cobalamin folate test. Make absolutely sure it's a fasting test. 

This is kind of helpful. http://www.daiquirisdogs.com/TLI.htm


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

they suggested a full blood panel.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

The full blood panel is good to have at this point. If anything is off, you will want to know. If all is normal, it provides a baseline for later, in addition to knowing that all is well.

The cobalamin/folate test is for the SIBO, and the TLI is to test for EPI. If you have the TLI done, absolutely be sure that you fast, as 3K9 mentioned. I know that my vet didn't tell me the time period to fast (it's longer than a regular fast for a blood panel), and it can throw the results off.


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## graciesmom (Jun 10, 2006)

In reviewing the pictures of your Justice, I can't help but remark how similar your issues seem to be to what I'm going through with my Gracie. Gracie will be 3 years old next week. She has always been on the skinny side, weighing in at ~ 60 pounds. Before switching to a raw diet, Gracie was fed Timberwolf. I've tried increasing the amount of food in her diet in the past, only to have her suffer from diarhea, whick I always took as an indication of overfeeding, so backed off and stools would return to normal. Recently, however, she had a bout of diarhea without any "overfeeding" on my part. She would also occasionally vomit some bile, which I understood to be an indication of an empty tummy. This bout took longer to clear up than usual. I did all the usual things, fasting first to give her system a rest, then slowly starting her back on bland diet with rice, then adding a bit of chicken, etc. Things cleared up, but in the process she dropped from 60 pounds to 52 in a matter of weeks, which is definitely too skinny. I was starting to worry about giardia or SIBO or EPI and brought it to my vet's attention. We had a fecal test done, which came back negative. Since she was eating well and her poops were good, vet suspected that she may have had a bit of colitis & suggested that rather than trying to increase her food intake at 2 meals per day, that I slowly start to add a 3rd meal. He also suggested adding some sweet potatoes, for calories/fibre and said it is soothing to an irritated tummy. So far, this is working great. She's regained 3 pounds (probably a bit more since she was weighed last week) and continues to have perfect banana poops. We will be doing a full blood test panel next week. Keep us posted on Justice's progress and I'll let you know what Gracie's results are.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

Update:

Justice went for her tests today. Doc thinks its EPI but said not to get upset if the tests come back negative. She started throwing the "C" word around. Im hoping for the best :-(


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Naw, it's gonna be EPI.....

Do keep us posted!


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

If it is EPI are there many others on this forum that have a dog diagnosed with it? Who can you ask questions to?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Throw a stick with your eyes closed and you'll probably hit someone on this board that has a dog with EPI









It's *very* common here on this board. And some of us have dogs that act like EPI dogs, with negative tests, and we just have to be more creative in what we do.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

Well I tell you, I have sooooooooo many questions and would like to be able to talk to someone who is going through this. If someone could PM me ide be appreciative.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Why don't you start a new thread -- you will get several responses.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

Well blood tests all came back good :-/. The absorption part of the test I guess takes a few days. We're starting her on Metronidazole today just to try and nip it in the butt since the results wont be in till Wed. Anyone have any advise for dogs "owners" going on this? Ive read that it can wreak havoc on some dogs.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

EPI test came back as "consistent with". So its official.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*EPI Diagnosis Re: Weight and Hip Bones?*

Hi, I changed your subject line to get you some EPI attention. I had a dog with it, it's fairly easy to control you just have to be extra vigilant about what your dog eats. 

NO, I repeat, NO greasy meat. 

My dog could have carb snacks (like crackers and cakelike treats I make with a bullion cube, flour and some eggs)


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Do you know what the TLI number was?
Just curious









I wish you the best, you'll get some good help here.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

TLI was 1.... :-(


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*TLI=1 - Weight and Hip Bones?*

Ouch, that is low, though I have read about lower that a dog did very well once the enzymes started their thing and the right diet was found.

I do wish you the best of luck and I hope once you find the right combination for your dog you'll continue to keep us updated!!

Be sure to talk to Tula here on this site!


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

*Re: TLI=1 - Weight and Hip Bones?*

Good news is that she has gained almost 5 lbs since Saturday. Her ribs arent showing as bad and her hip bones are starting to go again.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Weight and Hip Bones?/ now EPI*



> Originally Posted By: epd0407TLI was 1.... :-(


Wow, I don't think we've seen a lower number on this site???? You take the prize?!?!? 

Great about the 5 lbs -- I bet you will see steady improvement.

Watch for weird neurological signs on the metronidazole, including hind end weakness or spasticity. Most dogs are fine on it, but some do have adverse reactions.


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

*Re: Weight and Hip Bones?/ now EPI*

Shes only on it or 5 days or so. It really seems like its helped She went twice during the night and both were really light volume. On the vets recommendation I emailed her breeder to let her know about what happened. She has been insistent that there are no health defects with the dogs. I hope she dont take it personally, I think I put it pretty nice. Now we just have to wait for the SIBO tests.........


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## epd0407 (May 10, 2005)

*Re: Weight and Hip Bones?/ now EPI*

So I just got a call from one of the Techs at the Hospital. Justices Cobalamin folate Test came back. She wouldnt tell me anything other than the Doc would call me tomoorw. She said they may have to give Justice some B12 shots?????? and both were off. Does this mean that she has the SIBO or no??


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Weight and Hip Bones?/ now EPI*

That sounds like SIBO - But SIBO often comes hand in hand with EPI and isn't necessaryily the same "chronic" type so often seen in GSDs.
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/courses_vm546/...erial_overg.htm


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