# your Oppinon about that breeder ...



## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

i might be planning to buy a male from this breeder : Wendelin Farm


the male is Ox and the female Bria ... i took a look at their pedigree , but im kinda newb about it ..

any1 saw that breeder or heard anything about them ?

i am looking for a medium drive dog and good companion .. breeder said he would be good match for this .. with still some drive to be able to do some ScHh ...

here is the pups : http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/nemospeed/IMG_0953.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/nemospeed/IMG_0947.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/nemospeed/IMG_0946.jpg

http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/nemospeed/IMG_0945.jpg


he seems light on these picture .. but he was way darker when he was younger .. breeder said he will get back dark when he will get older , is that true ? 

im a bit conserned about the fact hes the last pups ... and its a male !? usualy male leave first no ? before female ?


anyway , gimme all your feed back , your oppinion guys are important for me ... thx


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Sables get darker as they get older-nice looking farm-their horses and cows are the same color-cool-


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

No males don't always leave first-sometimes the female does


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

the price is 1500$ also , to high ?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Wendelin Farms have been discussed previously on the forum, and the feedback has been positive. 

Here are the threads that have the farm mentioned:
German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results

You'll also find some recommendations for other kennels and breeders in your area. 

It means nothing if the puppy is the last one left, and no concern either that it is male. Good breeders make sure that the pups are matched to the right owner. You sound like the right owner for this pup. There might have been other people wanting a pup from this breeder, but perhaps they were looking for a high-drive competition prospect, so they were not offered this puppy, as it is more medium drive. Or someone else was looking for a low-drive couch potatoe, and were not offered this pup because this dog will not be happy without something to do. But just right for you! 

Sables do get darker as they age - they go through a lot of colour changes during the first year or two. 

Price is average for working lines from titled parents. (I say go for it!)


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## scuba_bob (May 5, 2008)

That pup doesn't look like it'll be a dark sable to me.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

IS it me or this breeding have the same old grand father ????

dam : VELMI DOBRY Bria z Kociciho dvora - German Shepherd Dog

stud : VYBORNY Ox z Jirkova dvora - German Shepherd Dog

Look at SG Dargo Ha-Ja-Da CS !!! this dog are on both bloodline ... !?!?!?!?! is that ok ? or if this is what we call co sanguine thingy !???


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

here a vid of him


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

He'll probably be a "regular" sable color. I think based on his current mahogony color he'll have very nice pigment, but isn't going to be mostly black. I think he'll be a handsome boy, though. His coloring to me looks about like what my guy's did when he was around that age. Definitely not LIGHT, but not what anyone would call a black sable.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

see here : http://i733.photobucket.com/albums/ww335/nemospeed/Same.jpg

is that not Co-sanguinity? ?


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Here is the answer of the breeder ..



*here is the linebreeding of the mating! this breeding was done becose of the linebreeding with Dargo Ha-ja -da 3on 3. *





*Linebreeding for the progency of VYBORNY Ox z Jirkova dvora and VELMI DOBRY Bria z Kociciho dvora*

*Linebreeding - 5 generations*


5 - 4............................................. in Cordon An-Sat
5 - 5............................................. in Omar z Blatenskeho zamku
5 - 5............................................. in SG Ben z Bolfu
5 - 5............................................. in SG Tina z Pohraniční stráce CS
5 - 5............................................. in SG 2*UM CR ZP Arys z Travnickova dvora CS
5 - 5............................................. in SG Zara z Blatenskeho zamku
4 - 4............................................. in V 2*UM CR Gero z Blatenskeho zamku
4 - 4............................................. in SG Grim z Pohranicni straze CS
4 - 4............................................. in DOBRY 5CKV1/P Cora Ha-Ja-Da CS
3 - 3............................................. in SG Dargo Ha-Ja-Da CS
5 - 5............................................. in DOBRY 4CLV7/34 Ester UV SOOD
he sended this to me after i asked why does the bitch and the stud had the same grand father , as u can see in the picture i posted ..


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

You are right, it is called line-breeding. Whether a 3-3 breeding is good or bad depends on many different things, and in this case, it sounds like the breeder did it on purpose to capture certain traits from that dog in order to achieve a specific outcome. 

I don't know enough about lines and pedigrees to comment. You could ask the breeder why he did a 3-3 line breeding on a certain dog, what he is trying to get, and ask him to tell you about the possible pros and cons. I would not be too concerned about a 3-3 breeding from someone who understands pedigrees and how they combine, and understands the pros and cons of their decision.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

so would u buy that dog anyway ?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

ask Cliff, he knows his pedigrees and would most likely tell you what you could expect out of this


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

who is cliff ?
what are his name on forum?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

his handle on here is cliffson1 he's always happy to help with pedigrees and can peg his dogs


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dexter said:


> so would u buy that dog anyway ?


I would if I felt that the breeder was acting on experience and was open and honest with all my questions. (And maybe after asking Cliff for some input  ).

I would not walk away from a pup based on a 3-3 linebreeding alone, there would be many other factors taken into consideration to base my decision on.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm with Lucia, if cliff had positive input, I wouldn't turn this puppy down, no he's most likely not going to be a black sable, but he's a handsome guy, I also like his retrieving skills in the video you showed..

I'd jump on him if you get positive feedback, as I know nothing about the breeder..


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes, Cliff has a LOT of experience on these lines. I can't really think of anyone else on the boards that has as much Czech bloodline knowledge.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

breeders use linebreeding (and gasp! sometimes even inbreeding), to solidify type. a 3-3 linebreeding from a experienced breeder is nothing to be concerned about. imho.


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

This breeder is on our list for our next male GSD (next year) We are planning to go and visit them when we are ready for the new addition to our family. They seem to be a good breeder we have been in contact with lady and have asked a tonne of questions.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hi Folks,
If Prager,(Hans) stays on this list he has far more knowledge than I on the Czech dogs. I am very familar with these lines though, and I would say that this would be as nice an acquisition as you can get at this age. From a temperament point of view,(and really that's the most important element ), this breeding will produce some strong confident dogs capable of being great family dogs and fun in Sch if you want to do it. This breeding is typical German Shepherd breeding as the breed was meant to be. The pup will get darker as it gets older, but how important is that in the big scheme of things. These dogs will not have Golden Retreiver temperament, nor should they, but they will have the nervebase to handle their strength of temperament as a German Shepherd should be. Bria, the mother, has a Zvv3, this is rare and exceptional for a female. You see the way she handles the ladder on the website. Do you know how many females today that won't attempt, much less do that excercise with the confidence and lack of stress in doing it. Good genetics. 
Overall, I would take a dog from this breeding, especially if it was for family and or sport fun. Obviously, there are some negatives to any breeding, but from an overall perspective this is an excellent breeding.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Christina is a very good breeeder who REALLY does her homework. I have met her in person at a seminar and she really studies PED's and deals a lot with Jiri with Jinopo which is good as she breeds primarily czech dogs.

3-3 linebreeding on the recently deceased Dargo is a plus.

arra is her name on here and she come on this board once in awhile


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> It means nothing if the puppy is the last one left, and no concern either that it is male. Good breeders make sure that the pups are matched to the right owner. You sound like the right owner for this pup. There might have been other people wanting a pup from this breeder, but perhaps they were looking for a high-drive competition prospect, so they were not offered this puppy, as it is more medium drive. Or someone else was looking for a low-drive couch potatoe, and were not offered this pup because this dog will not be happy without something to do. But just right for you!


Well said. I made that same mistake and it bothers me to this day. What makes it worse is that I know the person who has the dog now and everytime I hear the stories about her development......she was EXACTLY what I wanted. At least she is in great hands and I see pics all the time.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I will tell you that I have them in my sights and if I didn't have Zefra land on my doorstep (haha) then I would be very much interested in this breeding.

I have a Dargo Great-granddaughter (14 weeks: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=722747) and have been around a lot of progeny from him. I prefer these lines and can say that they are strong, correct to the standard dogs.

At 14 weeks, my female is confident, sure, superb nerve, medium thresholds (prefer this for schh), aloof but willing to engage when appropriate and already at so young is proving to be a excellent working dog.

Her mother, a Dargo granddaughter is well... amazing.

I say go for it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My pup Kopper is also linebred 3-3 (his mom and dad have the same grandfather) just like the pup in question. And, like the pup in question, the linebreeding was done on purpose. No issues at all so far. He's been fabulous. It's not an abnormal thing to do.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Actually, after looking at the pups pedigree, your pups mother and my pups mother are half sister's. They share the same sire Xant who is pretty impressive. He is also known for throwing good hips.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

ok ! well first i should say thx to you guys !!!! since i lost my dog 2 month ago cause of the bad pedigree , i was so scare to do a bad move !!!!

u guys helped me take the decision !!! thx a lot for the fast answer and also a special thx to cliff who answered my Pm and took the time to help me !!!

never been desapointed with people on that forum !!

ill take the pups for this thurday if the breeder wants too !!!

oh , and i also want to add , sry for my lack of knowledge , i just didnt wanted to buy a bad pups .. the lost of dexter hurted me so much ...


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Where are you located?

If you are close to KW, if you get the pup, we should do a play date. Are you doing any training/sport with your new pup?


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

hehe , im in canada , quebec , Montreal ... that play date would be AWSOOOOOME 

there is a Schh club near where i live !! schh RIve sub ... i might give it a try !

but i also have to admit tracking seems interesting .. so i can keep an eye on my girlfriend !


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

my pup is 3-3 on dargo. You will have your hands full with a fine dog.
Your making a good choice and you gotta post pics once you get him.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well Dexter, we INSIST on pictures once you get him


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

roger that !


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

the dog is linebred on Grim....there are MANY posts on this subject - high risk for hip dysplasia....given Cliff has been vehement about this risk...I am a little surprised that he is enthusiastic about the litter....of course, he may see things that are desireable that outweigh that risk..

Everyone who breeds looks at what levels of risk they feel comfortable with differently ....

I need a "do not feed the trolls" smilie.....

Lee


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Trolls? What Trolls? Can you elaborate?


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

wolfstraum said:


> the dog is linebred on Grim....there are MANY posts on this subject - high risk for hip dysplasia...


  ny 1 can confirm?


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

found that on pedigree database ... --->


According to what I have read and been told Grim brought a lot of working ability to the Czech lines but at a cost. The word is that line breeding to Grim increases the risk of bad hips and handler aggression problems. Given the number of Czech dogs with Grim in their bloodline best to proceed with caution. Several great dogs doing great work with Grim 3,3 but what will be the cost in the following generations if they are used in breeding programs



i dont know what to think .. im starting to think every breeder or pups ill ask will end by having some bad review or w/e ... does owning a GSD is really flippin the coin about dyplesia?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Dexter said:


> ny 1 can confirm?


Dexter, I don't know anything about Grim z PS, but I'd like to give you some advice. When I was researching my pup, I did _extensive_ research on his parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. Not only the dogs themselves but their siblings and their offspring. I wanted to see what kinds of titles they had earned, what hip and elbow scores they had received and what people who knew dogs and had worked with dogs were saying about those dogs. Since my pup is line-bred 3-3 on Sando Haus Iris, I did double the research on him.

I would suggest that you google every single dog in this puppy's pedigree. See what people are saying about those dogs on this forum, on pedigree database, on ddrlegends, and any other forum where dog people hang out. Pay special attention to people who _know_ these bloodlines like Cliff and Carmen. Again, don't just look into the dogs themselves, but their offspring-- your potential puppy's cousins, second cousins, aunts, uncles, etc. 

You asked if anyone could verify what wolfstraum said about Grim z PS. You can verify. Look at Grim's hip scores, his sibling's hip scores, his parents' hip scores, his children and grand-children's hip scores. Then you can make a more informed decision.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

where do i look that hip score ??? u mean the rating on pedigree database ? but you are right , thats what i did a bit and found what i posted just over your post ..


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Canada (OVC):
Hip and Elbow Dysplasia Evaluation: Search Database | Ontario Veterinary College | University of Guelph

United States (OFA):
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

These are the ones you will find some information on from dogs close up in the pedigree.

Like I said, I have met MANY dogs from these lines and have been close with a few and now own a pup of similar lines. I am VERY CLOSE friends and spend quite a bit of time with the half-sister of your potential pups mother. They share a sire so I can give you some feedback on her if you like.

I am not the most knowledgeable but I did do my research and know enough to make the decision that I did. If you would like to know my opinion/take on these lines, please feel free to PM me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When I look at a pedigree I also factor in hips when giving an opinion and also what is the purpose of the dog. I COULD write volumes about the dogs in this pedigree and also the intermingling. 
For the record, Grim is not a dog I would linebreed on IF I wanted to produce a stud dog or if I was breeding for hips. There are certain sons/daughters of Grim that have higher incidences of HD(like Xero z PS), and there are others that have much better records. 
I don't breed for hips specifically, nor do I place abnormal emphasis on hips. I do consider them. You CANNOT attempt to breed the perfect dog....so many people TRY to do this and have mucked up the breed in my opinion. 
Dexter, you indicated what you wanted the dog for...the odds are that this pup will meet those needs. If the dog has Fair hips, for the purposes you want the dog how will that negatively impact you???? If you were a kennel looking for a stud dog...maybe; because of the many little informed people that think perfect hips are the only successful dogs. 
This is a very sound breeding for a person wanting a good family dog, if the hips had an abnormal chance of being moderately or severely dysplastic....I would have said so. Is it possible....yes, but its possible with any two GS mated. 
There are no guarantees on hips ever, but this is a sound breeding for what you want. I see people that don't trial, work, or show their dogs, who get upset over their dog having Fair or NZ hips.....For what????? Its nothing more than Ego and status seeking as opposed to really understanding the breed....If you were a breeder seeking a dog as a puppy...maybe you might not want this, but if you had weak tempered dogs this breeding would be more important than hips anyway. There's a lot to consider, but not in this case....you are making this too complicated,imo.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

thx a lot cliff for your answer.Yes i have to admit i might making it complicated ...but the loss of dexter hurted so much. Maybe im trying to make myself more confortable with buying a pup with all these research before buying it. But something sure is i am learning. Fair hipe is absolutely fine for me and what ill do with the dog. The comment of the other guys just scared me , sounded like if the bloodline was high high high risk of HD...

anyways , im still considering that pups but my choice maybe ended on a pup from Wanda ( hena-c ).

rly debating between those 2 pups tbh


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> When I look at a pedigree I also factor in hips when giving an opinion and also what is the purpose of the dog. I COULD write volumes about the dogs in this pedigree and also the intermingling.
> For the record, Grim is not a dog I would linebreed on IF I wanted to produce a stud dog or if I was breeding for hips. There are certain sons/daughters of Grim that have higher incidences of HD(like Xero z PS), and there are others that have much better records.
> I don't breed for hips specifically, nor do I place abnormal emphasis on hips. I do consider them. You CANNOT attempt to breed the perfect dog....so many people TRY to do this and have mucked up the breed in my opinion.
> Dexter, you indicated what you wanted the dog for...the odds are that this pup will meet those needs. If the dog has Fair hips, for the purposes you want the dog how will that negatively impact you???? If you were a kennel looking for a stud dog...maybe; because of the many little informed people that think perfect hips are the only successful dogs.
> ...


Good post


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> I see people that don't trial, work, or show their dogs, who get upset over their dog having Fair or NZ hips.....For what????? Its nothing more than Ego and status seeking as opposed to really understanding the breed..


 I came to the same conclusion. Some time ago I was also taken by this 'perfect hips' thing but after owning a dog with week nerves/excellent hips and a dog with fair hips and absolutely outstanding temperament I can tell that I ditched the hips thing as irrelevant for my life. I am not a breeder and I do not do real SAR where the life of people may depend on the physical condition of the dog. Nowdays hips can be fixed, but nerves, unfortunately, can't.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

Dexter said:


> thx a lot cliff for your answer.Yes i have to admit i might making it complicated ...but the loss of dexter hurted so much. Maybe im trying to make myself more confortable with buying a pup with all these research before buying it. But something sure is i am learning. Fair hipe is absolutely fine for me and what ill do with the dog. The comment of the other guys just scared me , sounded like if the bloodline was high high high risk of HD....


Dexter,

It has been 2 months since you lost your dog and I see that it still hurts a lot. Maybe you should consider taking some more time before getting another pup? You seem liked you loved your dog so much and perhaps you are moving a little too quickly and maybe 1,2 or even 3 months more to help deal with your loss may be a better thing rather than replacing him with a new dog?

Now with regards to the Ox x Bria dog, you are making it too complicated and it really doesn't need to be. A medium drive dog with this pedigree is a good thing for you.

Here is the PED on my pup and Im not too concerned with Grim as he brings hardness to the breeding and Grim (from my sources) doesn't produce handler aggressive dogs. People can say "hey I have a friend who had a dog linebred on grim and he was handler aggressive." That means nothing as you don't know the enviornment the dog was in nor (most importantly) you don't know how the handler treated the dog.

Below is the ped on my pup which I ended up getting a very high drive one. I am not concerned about my dogs hips or elbows. I'm more concerned with nerves & workability.

*Linebreeding - 5 generations*



5,5 - 5........................................... in  Omar z Blatenskeho zamku
5 - 5,5........................................... in SG Ben z Bolfu
5 - 5,5........................................... in SG Tina z Pohraniční stráce CS
5 - 5............................................. in SG 2*UM CR ZP Arys z Travnickova dvora CS
5,5 - 5........................................... in SG Zara z Blatenskeho zamku
4,4 - 4........................................... in V 2*UM CR Gero z Blatenskeho zamku
4 - 4,4........................................... in SG Grim z Pohranicni straze CS
4 - 4............................................. in DOBRY 5CKV1/P Cora Ha-Ja-Da CS
3 - 3............................................. in SG Dargo Ha-Ja-Da CS
5 - 5............................................. in DOBRY 4CLV7/34 Ester UV SOOD


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Yes i might have made it become a bit complicated .. but i want to make sure i did the search i needed for !!! you know , wanted to make sure i dont repeat myself '' i should have done '' . now i feel pretty safe with these 2 Breeder ( Windelin Farm and Hena-C )

they both have 1 pups available atm ... the one from Windelin seems to have more the temperament i am looking for.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think you have two good choices there for you. I say go with your gut as to wich one you feel is the right puppy to go with.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

windelin farm also seems closer to you, since the puppy your considering from von hena c is in Kentucky not NH..


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## GizmoGSD (Jul 18, 2011)

Dexter have tried to reach christina by phone and left a message on their vocal box .. waiting news


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Thx to everybody who took the time to answer me and sry again for paranoid ...

i think we made the good choice .. cant wait to get the pups this thursday.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

pup_*s*_?


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Ace952 said:


> pup_*s*_?


 lol thanks for posting this.. was going through my mind also.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

pup !


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

lol! oh ok.. Had me worried for a minute!

I am very happy for you.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Might as well be pups--I b elieve his wife is on here somewhere posting about getting herself one too...


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

dont get it twisted , we one want 1 pup ! She just created her own loggin cause she didnt wanted to use mine... dont ask!!!

we found out the breeder and the pup. we going to get him at the dorval airport thursday.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

um, well, she was posting about you getting "your" pup and now it was her turn to look for one?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Justine, I think it was a bit of a language problem - Dexter was asking about one breeder, and Gizmo was asking about another, but if does sound to me that they were only planning on getting one pup, whichever breeder they would have settled on.


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## Dexter (Jul 25, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> Justine, I think it was a bit of a language problem - Dexter was asking about one breeder, and Gizmo was asking about another, but if does sound to me that they were only planning on getting one pup, whichever breeder they would have settled on.


here you go !

and yes sry peeps, our first language is french!!
So our typing might be broken sometimes !


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