# How do you punish your dog?



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Some of you may remember me from earlier in the year with my two males (litter mates) fighting. Anyway, we've got that situation sorted out, one has been neutered and we are fight-free for at least 8 months, not sure what the actual time is though haha.

Anyway, I'm running into another problem. Usually when they do something bad I take them to the scene (for example they chew up the apple tree), they bow their head because they know I'm mad and I point at them and give them the "I'm angry" voice.

Shadow has always eaten his poop, no product we find can stop it. Keep in mind it's not like we leave it sit for a week before we pick it up, he will poop, turn around and eat it. He also eats Darguns poop too. Anyway, I do the same thing I normally do, I'll yell his name, point at him and give him the angry voice telling him bad boy, knock it off. Now when I do this, he takes off. He will look around and dart. I don't like running through peoples yards and I know in my neighbor hood, there is no chance at catching a dog unless they want to be caught (big yards). The only way I get him back is if the pound picks him up, if he decides to come home, or if I start the van. We have several vehicles, but only one of them has enough space for the dogs, the van. They know the sound of the van as "yay we get to go bye-bye" so usually they will come running to the van.

My question is, how do I punish Shadow for running off? It seems like if I punish him when he comes home, he might think he is being punished for coming back, yet if I wait then he thinks he's being punished for no reason.

Please keep in mind that we do not have a fenced yard, and I let them out multiple times a day (5+ usually) for at least 30 mins. If it's raining I'll sit on the porch and they will just poop and pee and go back in. They get plenty of play time and never run off during play time, but when Shadow is in trouble, he will bolt. I don't have this problem with Dargun, but he doesn't eat poop and right now that is the only thing that is going bad.

Shadow is the light guy on the right, and Dargun is the dark guy on the left.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

From the examples you used, I'm wondering what training methods you use to train them not to chew the tree, or eat their poop or take off when you are angry.....

What method of training are you using for these things? Do you have a hired trainer or are you training from what you learned in online videos or? Food reward training, clicker training, positive reinforcement or a combination?


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Also I just went back and looked at your pic of the rolling fence post, is that what they've destroyed? the wood part - is that the only place they are getting out? Can you use a hot wire just there?


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

He isn't running off, unfortunately, you're chasing him off. The only way you can punish something is right at the moment they do it and for the most part, calm and without emotion is more helpful. I'd keep him on a line everytime he's outside and you can use it to correct him as soon as he looks at the poop and you can concentrate on teaching him coming to you is good.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

As far as the tree went, I didn't want the tree to die and they just kept chewing on it so eventually I built a fence around it as I didn't know how to punish them.

As far as training methods, I seen the clicker training thing on Youtube but that did not work out so well. Any time we clicked anything like a pen or pressed a sticky button, their ears would go up and they think they did something good and they would get a treat. We stopped that and went to giving them treats when they did something good, but we had to phase out of that because my grandparents will give them a tread just for being a dog when ever they see them (we are their care takers so we live with them). I started buying a different kind of treat to train them with, but after sit, stay, lay down, and shake there isn't much more I want them to do. I've gotten a lot of free time so I've been training them to go to something and get it on command (eventually for bird hunting). I'm doing this with a little RC truck, I will point at it to show them it, they will be laying down and my hand is on their back, then I'll start moving the truck. When I tap them on the back and say "go get it" they will bring it back to me and they get a treat. I phase them out of it though and just give love. For example "good boy here's a treat" on the first one, then every other one, then every few, and eventually no treats, just love.

I can tell them not to go on something, for example we have a bed in the garage so we can sleep with them without getting the house all dirty. We let them up on the bed, but if it's wet we point at the bed and wave our hand down low and they will not get on it until we ask them to. Same thing with the couch (although they are never allowed on the couch). I tried this with the tree and it didn't work but like I said I didn't have a whole lot of time as I didn't want it to die.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I had a problem with Summer poop eating from day 1. I called the breeder and here's the advice I got; "You have to stop this right now", "If you don't, it will be a lifelong battle".

But, no advice as to how to stop it or why it was happening. So, I looked on the internet and nobody really knows why. So I joined this forum and was told you have to be right there and ON IT when it happens and get rid of it. Some described their dogs turning around to dine before they were even done pooping. Most suggestions were to correct as you would anything else or be there to shovel it up right away.

So I did this, for months and months and months.... She tried going to every hidden recess in the yard to poop so she could get to it before I could get to her and bust her for it. Finally, she gave up and all was well. I relaxed and low and behold - 1 year later she's starting it again! So, I'm right back out there again. 

The ONE thing I have going for me on this unusual behavior/disorder is I feed my dog on schedule and as a result - her poops are so predictable like not 5 or 10 minutes after eating, but definately 15 to 20 minutes after eating - so it's not a big deal for me to be out there in the yard to keep her off her poop. She gives it one look and I can be 50 feet away and say "Leave it' and she'll be off and never give it a 2nd thought. The "trigger" seems to be in the 1st minute or 2 and I think (this sounds gross) but the odor hot and steamy fresh out of the oven is the attraction - 

Does your dog eat your other dogs poop only when it's "fresh" arrgh! or is he eating old poop too?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is actually frustrating. How do I punish my dog? I don't. I don't need to. Occasionally I correct a dog, by letting them know, with my voice, that this is MINE, and I will give them something else and say, YOURS. I will say, "Eh!" when I see the pup considering the garbage can, and that immediately stops the behavior.

I supervise the puppy or put the puppy where he cannot get herself in trouble. She has an indoor/outdoor area that is safe for her. When I cannot supervise, she is in there, often with Babs. 

I do not leave an untrained dog off lead in an area that is not secure. So my dogs do not run over or through the neighbor's yard. If necessary, I put on line on them. Recall is so crucial that I take my time with it and teach it. I do not give the command unless I can immediately enforce it. This is not a command I want them to think they can ignore.

In fact, I am not good with them ignoring my commands. I try not to give ANY command that I cannot enforce immediately. By doing so, the dog understands that commands are commands, not requests, not suggestions. I do not curl my command into a question. Dogs are smart. If you think they may not listen, they may not listen. You have no confidence, why should they listen to you? I do not repeat commands. Repeating commands teaches a dog to ignore you. They wait until you reach that pitch in your voice that says, "I am going to kill you." Then they do it. If you are running through yards, calling your dog to come, when he knows you are irrationally angry at him for some reason, of course he isn't going to come. And you are right, punish him after he comes home and he will be less likely to come home again -- you will then have to catch him.

You don't have a fence. Well then put a leash on your dog and take him out on leash. Yep, every single time. Work on come on a long line. And don't go off lead with this one. If you work with recall on a long line for 3 years, and you drop your lead in a parking lot, and you need your dog to come, he will come. Because every single time you called him to come, you were able to bring him to where you were and had him sit. It's not optional. Don't go off lead. Don't let him figure that he can choose not to. You might want to change the word to HERE, because you have abused the word you have been using if that was COME. Every time you follow through. You do not repeat commands, you give a command, give him a moment to do it on his own, if he does not, you help him. 

When you teach the recall. Start with a come or here, and pet and praise, but quickly add a SIT. Teach him to come and sit in front of you, close enough for you to pet his head and play with his collar. If you are ever in a seriously dangerous situation, you do not want a fly by. You want him to come to the front of you, sit and get pets, have you play with (secure) his collar. And because you practiced this on a line regularly, your dog lives. Yay! 

Let your dogs run about and through the neighbor's yards, caught by animal control, and you might lose your dog, and he may die. Animal control people tend to get irritated at repeat offenders, and if they see your dog without a collar and catch him, they may just quietly hold him and adopt him out at the first opportunity. Because they are seeing you as irresponsible. 

Get your act together because you are giving our breed a bad name.


----------



## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

I ended the poop eating problem in 2 days. It's quite simple actually, the moment I took him out in the morning to pee/poop he was on a leash. I let him poop, he turns around to eat it and I give a strong yank on the leash and a firm loud "NO". I did this for 2 days, so that's about 4-6 poops and he got the point. Plus I live in a city so my eyes were glued to the ground during a walk on the lookout for other dogs crap. As soon as he got near another dogs poop I give a strong yank and a firm no. You can also try to carry a small water gun and the moment he turns to eat the poop you squirt him and give a firm NO. 
Hope this helps. 
By the way, is it hard to manage 2 males? If I would ever get 2 dogs at the same time I always thought a male and female is the best mix.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My dogs are not bad, but I do leash up Gambit when he chases the hose when we are trying to water. Or crate him if bitey face game gets out of hand. None of my dogs are destructive, poop eaters or generally naughty. 
I would rather contain them when needed. They are given freedom, but not so much that running off is an option if I know they don't have a good recall. Recalls are part of the foundation training.
During their puppyhood, I try to shape their character as far as supporting neutral behaviors with other dogs or people. I don't do it with corrections but just redirection and praise when I capture them doing what I think is right. I like a confident dog that won't shut down or is banged on so much that they get inhibited. Would rather have a free soul that can deal with some boundaries that are understood. I try to set them up to succeed. If they fail they do learn a lesson, but fairness is what I try to keep foremost. Correction is usually verbal from me in the day to day home stuff, and or other dogs will correct the younger dogs, again they are doing it fairly and the younger dog understands. 
When it comes to obedience training or sport, collar pops, ecollar information is what I use, but verbal is always the first go to.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

When I was looking into the "poop eating" disorder (officially called coprophagia) I learned that it might be a dietary deficiency that causes the problem. Since you have two sibs, and one that does and one that does not.... you have to wonder.

The reason I asked if it's an all the time problem, rather than if the fresh smell triggers it or it's older poop too - I would think a compulsion behavior (backed by smell) as opposed to eating all poop (dietary problem) would be something to think about. But, since you have sibs - that pretty much blows both theories/speculation out of the water for me.:surprise:


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Thanks guys, I will try a few of your suggestions and see where I get.

Shadow will eat any poop. His poop, his brothers poop, our labs poop, the neighbors poop, old poop, fresh poop, it don't matter.

As far as the spray gun goes, I don't think that's going to work as they love water. They love to play with the hose and I made them a water bottle that I can squirt so they will play with that (it started when Shadow got sick and wouldn't drink water, I made it a game for him).

As far as the dogs running through the neighbor hood, it's not like I want them to. I don't send them out and say "come home when you feel like it" They know their boundaries and they know what will happen when they cross that boundary- play time is over. We have 3 sections of our yard and they are not allowed to go to a different one unless I invite them to go. We only had a select few issues with running off when they where puppies and they seen a bird or something. Right now all their walks around the neighbor hood are off-leash (though I have collars on and leashes on me if I spot a dog I don't think they will get along with) and they do great. When I say "heel", they heel. When I say "you're free", they can play close to me. When I say "too far" they will stop playing, and stay where they are until I say "you're free" again. Right now the issue is Shadow deciding to run off when I yell at him for eating poop. We have our dogs off lease because as you know, GSD have a lot of energy and need to run. A 15' leash doesn't let them get a lot of energy out, they can't run full speed (without dis-locating your shoulder). We let them off leash and we let them play as long as there is a mutual respect between them and us. We've never had an issue with them running off on an off-leash walk besides when they where young pups with short attention spans.

I can say we're all glad (now) that we have two males. As puppies it was hard mainly because they wanted to keep fighting, and we thought it's get harder as time went on because there are a few female dogs in the neighbor hood, so when those dogs go in heat we assumed we'd have problems. Trust me when I say we hate getting dogs neutered. We tried everything to get them to stop fighting and people recommended us neuter Dargun as he was the runt of the litter and at the time not the alpha. We wanted babies from Dargun and we decided that we are alpha so we neutered Shadow and after a month past by, no more fights. We've never had a female dog so we just decided why get one? Always had male dogs for what ever reason so we went with what we have "experience" with.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is just no talking to some people. Your dog knows the boundaries, doesn't respect them, but you are going to let him off lead anyway, because you won't listen to reason. 

Good luck on that. I hope your dog does not suffer because his owner won't protect him.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hey Double - where are you???? You have awesome looking dogs and the fact that they're this age and looking good means you're doing a lot of right things for them.

If you find some of the posts overwhelming for now, just respond to/ work with the ones you can deal with. You're here for a reason and there's lots of good help here - just take it in small portions. Don't spend your time trying to justify your past training with these dogs - just move forward. 

None of this is personal at you and don't let anyone get to you trying to put shame on you, one or two may try but the rest just want to help without guilt tripping you:surprise:. You sound like you have your hands full taking care of your elder family and what your doing is what many others would not.....

Get your but back here when you can! and get the bits and pieces of information you can get here from helpful posters - to help you and soldier on - you can do this.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Well, I guess the only thing to add then is, I wouldn't let him lick your face when animal control returns him..


----------



## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Haven't read all of the posts, but my dog goes to work with me and cannot be off leash, so I bought a 33' biothane tracking line. I am able to throw the ball pretty far and he can run pretty hard to retrieve it without dislocating my shoulder or his neck.
I am able to work a lot of his energy out that way. Just a thought...


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

MyHans-someBoy said:


> Haven't read all of the posts, but my dog goes to work with me and cannot be off leash, so I bought a 33' biothane tracking line. I am able to throw the ball pretty far and he can run pretty hard to retrieve it without dislocating my shoulder or his neck.
> I am able to work a lot of his energy out that way. Just a thought...


make sure you know where that line is so you aren't taken out by the ankles!


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Double Trouble said:


> As far as the dogs running through the neighbor hood, it's not like I want them to. I don't send them out and say "come home when you feel like it" They know their boundaries and they know what will happen when they cross that boundary- play time is over.


I think this is a most immediate, very dangerous problem and should be focused on. Poop eating won't get them dead - this will.....

I understand now, why you're asking how people discipline their dogs. With just this one problem... what kind of play time can you offer two adult male GSD's that would be so intriguing that they would abandon their natural drives and instincts for (to leave your property for) if you withhold it? There isn't any.... Your bond, without professional perimeter training is not providing the glue that can make this happen. 

What are your dogs doing when they are out and about without supervision? If they come across a neighbor's cat or chickens? Will they eventually do what their drive and instinct tells them to do?

IMO - #1 is to get them confined to your property where they cannot escape to be on their own to do as they will... This is a recipe for a bullet to the brain on your dogs.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> make sure you know where that line is so you aren't taken out by the ankles!


It hurts:


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

selzer said:


> There is just no talking to some people. Your dog knows the boundaries, doesn't respect them, but you are going to let him off lead anyway, because you won't listen to reason.
> 
> Good luck on that. I hope your dog does not suffer because his owner won't protect him.


I don't think you understand what I'm trying to relay to you...

They are both fine, they know their boundaries and respect them UNTIL Shadow gets in trouble. At that point, Shadow runs off. If I let Shadow eat his poop, he won't run off. As soon as I get mad at him, he runs. Does that make sense to you?


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Hey Double - where are you???? You have awesome looking dogs and the fact that they're this age and looking good means you're doing a lot of right things for them.
> 
> If you find some of the posts overwhelming for now, just respond to/ work with the ones you can deal with. You're here for a reason and there's lots of good help here - just take it in small portions. Don't spend your time trying to justify your past training with these dogs - just move forward.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I live on Camano island WA, pretty soon I'm going to buy a new truck so I think my brother and I are going to take the dogs to Kellog, ID and I'm going to look at a couple Rams at Dave Smith motors and we'll probably stay out there for a couple weeks. I see you're in ID too haha.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> He isn't running off, unfortunately, you're chasing him off. The only way you can punish something is right at the moment they do it and for the most part, calm and without emotion is more helpful. I'd keep him on a line everytime he's outside and you can use it to correct him as soon as he looks at the poop and you can concentrate on teaching him coming to you is good.


Does that make sense DT?


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I saw in your earlier post a 6' chain link fence strung across your backyard but with no caps and parallel supports on it. Is that the wire they're bending because the fence isn't finished?

Here's what goes on top - coyote rollers only on the inside to keep your dogs in their yard and not running loose. It will be the end to this problem. It works especially well on chain link fence that has the top cross bars and supports properly installed. I noticed in the photo, yours does not....


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I think this is a most immediate, very dangerous problem and should be focused on. Poop eating won't get them dead - this will.....
> 
> I understand now, why you're asking how people discipline their dogs. With just this one problem... what kind of play time can you offer two adult male GSD's that would be so intriguing that they would abandon their natural drives and instincts for (to leave your property for) if you withhold it? There isn't any.... Your bond, without professional perimeter training is not providing the glue that can make this happen.
> 
> ...


It is the first priority, however, as I've mentioned they stay in the boundary area unless I invite them to go to a different one, or Shadow gets in trouble, in which case he takes off. I've tested this many times to ensure they will listen to me. I take that little RC truck I'm training them with (mainly for hunting) and I run it across the road to see if they'll chase it. People have walked down our road with their dogs and my dogs do not follow. They do trot up until I call their names and they turn around. I have yet to have a high energy dog barking and pulling the owner come down the road, but I'd venture to guess they would run to it and not listen to me.

Long story short, I am very confident that Dargun knows his boundaries and he respects them. Same thing with Shadow with the only exception being him getting in trouble and running off.

I'm no dog training expert, I'm a finish carpenter but I do feel my dogs know what I'm saying and they respect that. How do I know it? Because they show me. They can pas my RC truck test, but when an out of the blue dog walks down the street and they listen to me instead of running to say hi to the other dog, I know I'm doing something right. As of right now the focus is on how do I punish my dogs when they run off, or maybe in the future when they do something bad.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Double Trouble said:


> Thank you! I live on Camano island WA, pretty soon I'm going to buy a new truck so I think my brother and I are going to take the dogs to Kellog, ID and I'm going to look at a couple Rams at Dave Smith motors and we'll probably stay out there for a couple weeks. I see you're in ID too haha.


Yea, I have a friend that works there. Shoot me an message here and I'll get you his name and number before you come.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> I don't think you understand what I'm trying to relay to you...
> 
> They are both fine, they know their boundaries and respect them UNTIL Shadow gets in trouble. At that point, Shadow runs off. If I let Shadow eat his poop, he won't run off. As soon as I get mad at him, he runs. Does that make sense to you?


If a dog is allowed off lead and he runs, he is not respecting his boundaries. You have taught him to run away. I just had this same discussion with a neighbor after we found her dog running down the middle of the street for the second time in a week.

Me: why is your dog running down the street?
Her: I'm teaching my dog to stay
Me: Why is she off lead?
Her: Because I'm showing her how to stay on the front yard
Me: But she's not staying in your yard. Why is she not on a long line?
Her: Because she stays most of the time. She just runs away when she sees someone in your yard (meaning "it's your fault for being in your yard")
Me: Then she doesn't know Stay and you have just taught her she doesn't have to stay because you allowed her to run off.
Her: No, I'm teaching her Stay

We could have gone in circles like this for an hour because the owner of this dog refuses to understand basic dog behavior or her responsibility in creating a situation where her dog learns the opposite of what she is trying to teach her. Do you see a parallel here between my example and your situation?


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Are they cut?


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> I saw in your earlier post a 6' chain link fence strung across your backyard but with no caps and parallel supports on it. Is that the wire they're bending because the fence isn't finished?
> 
> Here's what goes on top - coyote rollers only on the inside to keep your dogs in their yard and not running loose. It will be the end to this problem. It works especially well on chain link fence that has the top cross bars and supports properly installed. I noticed in the photo, yours does not....


Yeah I ran out of fence posts and I bought 3 more 6' ones because my brain wasn't working right so I had to go back and get 8' ones lol. They still haven't dug under or jumped over the fence, and that is just their area where we put them when we're not outside. They have a 10x20 covered area (AKC welded wire kennel, 2 10x10's put together) and it also goes into the garage. That way if we're doing something in the garage we can lock the outside and they still have a covered area and room to play.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> Does that make sense DT?


Hence why I'm making this thread...

Since I know some one is going to say "why?", let me re-hash the situation. Shadow eats poop, we are all on the same page with that. I yell his name in the "I'm mad voice", we're all on the same page with that. Where everyone is getting confused is the part where he runs off and I don't know how to punish him both while he's eating poop and when he runs off. That is the whole point of this thread. I've tried the soft "oh Shadow don't do that", but it doesn't work. The snap of my saying "Shadow" fast gets his attention and in my mind saying "knock it off" in the I'm mad voice would tell him that's a bad thing to do. However, that's not working as he runs off and I have no idea how to punish him when I get him back.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> Yea, I have a friend that works there. Shoot me an message here and I'll get you his name and number before you come.


Will do haha, I'm supposed to fly out to D.C. for work shortly so I'm hoping that around October / November I can get around to selling my truck and buying a new one.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If a dog is allowed off lead and he runs, he is not respecting his boundaries. You have taught him to run away. I just had this same discussion with a neighbor after we found her dog running down the middle of the street for the second time in a week.
> 
> Me: why is your dog running down the street?
> Her: I'm teaching my dog to stay
> ...


That's fine and great however, I will say it one more time. Both dogs stay in my yard, more specifically in the boundary I let them in as we have 3 parts to our yard, and they know the limits of each one. They don't run off when they see the dog walking down the street. They don't run off when they see RC truck going down the street. Shadow runs off when he gets in trouble for eating poop. That's whats going on. If you're local I'd love to show you what I'm talking about as I sense a bit of mis-communication.



Stonevintage said:


> Are they cut?


Shadow has been neutered for about a year now and Dargun is not neutered.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> Hence why I'm making this thread...
> 
> Since I know some one is going to say "why?", let me re-hash the situation. Shadow eats poop, we are all on the same page with that. I yell his name in the "I'm mad voice", we're all on the same page with that. Where everyone is getting confused is the part where he runs off and I don't know how to punish him both while he's eating poop and when he runs off. That is the whole point of this thread. I've tried the soft "oh Shadow don't do that", but it doesn't work. The snap of my saying "Shadow" fast gets his attention and in my mind saying "knock it off" in the I'm mad voice would tell him that's a bad thing to do. However, that's not working as he runs off and I have no idea how to punish him when I get him back.


You can't. If you give him a negative when he returns you are punishing him for returning. 

You know what. Get an e collar, have someone responsible show you how to use it and correct him from a distance a second before his mouth touches the poop. Use a quiet voice. You need to stop him before he eats it not after. Once you raise your voice you have become ineffective. 

Another solution which you won't do is to leash him, walk him around to poop, and then clean it up right away. If he tries to eat it, give him a leash pop before he gets it in his mouth. Once he even licks it, he is rewarding himself by treating himself with the poop. It seems disgusting to us but to him it's a type of reward.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm just about worn out on this thread. IMO - if your dog's eating old poop too - there may be a nutrient absorption problem with his system. Spend the 25 bucks, take his poop in and have it checked.

I see your fence and I think I busted you on that0 So - get your act together and get it done. You have two awesome dogs. Don't let your ego compromise their safety about keeping themselves parked on your property. One leaves, the other will follow. IMO now, it's only when the joy stops but soon you will not be able to offer more than a mature dog has the drive to go out and do..... Doesn't matter if you only have a problem with one dog now....it will rub off on the other if it isn't stopped.

Don't get your dogs dead over your confidence. A remote control car has nothing to do with real life and the smells, sights and vibes that mother nature drives them to seek....


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> It is the first priority, however, as I've mentioned they stay in the boundary area unless I invite them to go to a different one, or Shadow gets in trouble, in which case he takes off. I've tested this many times to ensure they will listen to me. I take that little RC truck I'm training them with (mainly for hunting) and I run it across the road to see if they'll chase it. People have walked down our road with their dogs and my dogs do not follow. They do trot up until I call their names and they turn around. I have yet to have a high energy dog barking and pulling the owner come down the road, but I'd venture to guess they would run to it and not listen to me.
> 
> Long story short, I am very confident that Dargun knows his boundaries and he respects them. Same thing with* Shadow with the only exception being him getting in trouble and running off.*
> 
> I'm no dog training expert, I'm a finish carpenter but I do feel my dogs know what I'm saying and they respect that. How do I know it? Because they show me. They can pas my RC truck test, but when an out of the blue dog walks down the street and they listen to me instead of running to say hi to the other dog, I know I'm doing something right. As of right now the focus is on how do I punish my dogs when they run off, or maybe in the future when they do something bad.


I'm not sure if Shadow runs because you taught him; mom/dad is mad and that's the que for the chase game? Or Shadow is a soft dog, your corrections have been unfair or maybe both?


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Shadow does not know his boundaries. Really. He. Does. Not. If he runs off for any reason and goes past the boundaries he doesn't know them. Even one time is too much.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Double Trouble said:


> Shadow has been neutered for about a year now and Dargun is not neutered.


Sometimes I wonder if a dog cut before full maturity isn't stopped somehow in his mental maturity as well....so things don't move on and they settle and get trapped into a same mindset complete with learning issues....

again, you have sib bros so it's very interesting you have these two problems with 1 of your boys - I wish someone could explain this...at a documented level.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> Sometimes I wonder if a dog cut before full maturity isn't stopped somehow in his mental maturity as well....so things don't move on and they settle and get trapped into a same mindset complete with learning issues....
> 
> again, you have sib bros so it's very interesting you have these two problems with 1 of your boys - I wish someone could explain this...at a documented level.


Siblings can be very different, my girls dont share all the same qualities.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Punishing your dog is getting him in trouble. 

So what do we want to do? Punish the dog for being afraid of punishment. 

Instead of employing a leash while your dog goes out to do his business, so you can eliminate the elimination behavior which is becoming a habit that you don't like, we want to prove how wonderful we are by training the dog not to eat the poop, and not to go out of the yard, even if staying in the yard will mean punishment, which he is afraid of. 

Yes, when you yell at your dog with your punishment voice, and the dog continues to eat the poop, and your punishment isn't good enough, so what do we do? more punishment. The dog thinks you are angry and is afraid of you. 

Once upon a time I had a bitch, and I had her in classes, and the trainer wanted a 30 minute down-stay. This bitch was awesome. The very first night she gave me a 30 minute down stay while I ate dinner. Great. The next night, I settled her in a down, stay, and I started eating. About 15 minutes later, she broke her stay. I yelled at her, because ya know, she did this once, so she knew how to do it. I spend the next hour struggling her into a down and trying to get her to stay there. 

The next day I went and got my leash, and she went and hid in the other room. 

What you have to understand is that I LOVED this dog. She was perfect in every way. My first dog was a dominant, drop-eared, working-line, bi-color, disaster of a dog. THIS bitch was beautiful, and calm, and sweet, and good, and looked like my inner picture of a GSD. I had her from just under six weeks, so she was my baby too. She was special.

But she was hiding from me. 

I learned about dog training from that English Hag who was a proponent of the Kohler method, the Walkies-lady. And, I was taking her to a class with someone who used the choke chain, an old gal who was actually pretty good, but also no-nonsense. And that boy I had, you had to show him who was the boss to get behavior out of him. 

But this girl. I had to re-think everything I knew. I threw it all out. I knew this dog wanted to please me. Knew it. I threw out the 30 minute down stay. I threw out leash pops and corrections. I threw out yelling and punishing. 

I learned that it is up to me to communicate to the dog what I wanted for her to do, and if she didn't do it, it was on me. I didn't communicate it effectively, and I needed to try it differently. 

She did not do treats or toys or tug or fetch. She didn't care about them at all. But she would jump off a cliff for me for praise. I had to learn how to use praise for everything, and that meant moderating it to fit the circumstances. 

We figured it out. But not until I understood the fault was on me. She was top of her class. She earned 3 blue ribbons for her obedience title. I could walk her anywhere on lead, off lead, anything. She understood me and I understood her perfectly. 

It cut me to the core to know she was afraid of my leadership style. It made me change how I viewed ownership. 

I don't punish my dogs. 

I will say Eh! or No! when they are going to do something I do not want -- that is how I house train, by supervising and teaching what is allowed and what is now. House training is more than pottying in the right place. 

All of my dogs can go in my front yard -- not fenced without collar or lead. Because everyone will come back when I call their name. Coming to me is ALWAYS a good thing. Always. I wouldn't be calling a dog to come to me after yelling about a behavior I didn't want, because 1st, I do not give commands that I cannot enforce immediately, so I would not call Jenna, COME! and I do not give commands that they are unlikely to follow. If Jenna and Heidi are trying to kill each other, I am not going to say, Jenna, COME! No. If I want a dog in my front yard, not collared to come, I will call, KARMA, and then I might say, come on, or Now, or lets go, but not COME. COME is something I don't use lightly, because I want it 100% all the time. So it is 100% on leash. 

But when I was in a busy parking lot and I had a leash malfunction, I called COME, and my pup turned and came right back to me, because the dog knows that it isn't optional. 

When we are talking about punishing the dog, we should be talking about training the owner. If the dog needs to be punished, than there is a failure in management, leadership and/or training. All of that is on the owner, not the dog.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> You can't. If you give him a negative when he returns you are punishing him for returning.
> 
> You know what. Get an e collar, have someone responsible show you how to use it and correct him from a distance a second before his mouth touches the poop. Use a quiet voice. You need to stop him before he eats it not after. Once you raise your voice you have become ineffective.
> 
> Another solution which you won't do is to leash him, walk him around to poop, and then clean it up right away. If he tries to eat it, give him a leash pop before he gets it in his mouth. Once he even licks it, he is rewarding himself by treating himself with the poop. It seems disgusting to us but to him it's a type of reward.


I will try to walk him around the poop on a leash so and pop the collar when he tried to eat it, but I will just be honest, it won't be a forever thing. As I mentioned before, I just don't feel that they get enough exercise in on a leash.



Stonevintage said:


> I'm just about worn out on this thread. IMO - if your dog's eating old poop too - there may be a nutrient absorption problem with his system. Spend the 25 bucks, take his poop in and have it checked.
> 
> I see your fence and I think I busted you on that0 So - get your act together and get it done. You have two awesome dogs. Don't let your ego compromise their safety about keeping themselves parked on your property. One leaves, the other will follow. IMO now, it's only when the joy stops but soon you will not be able to offer more than a mature dog has the drive to go out and do..... Doesn't matter if you only have a problem with one dog now....it will rub off on the other if it isn't stopped.
> 
> Don't get your dogs dead over your confidence. A remote control car has nothing to do with real life and the smells, sights and vibes that mother nature drives them to seek....


Where do I get it tested? I didn't know that was a thing lol. Hypothetically let's say he's not getting enough nutrients, do you know what I do then? 

The fence hasn't been an issue for some time, not something I'm too worried about however once I get the money and the man power, we're moving one of our sheds behind the other and will do a permanent fence from the side yard forward. To be honest this fence wasn't supposed to last this long lol.



LuvShepherds said:


> Shadow does not know his boundaries. Really. He. Does. Not. If he runs off for any reason and goes past the boundaries he doesn't know them. Even one time is too much.


Shadow absolutely knows his boundaries, however it is willful dis-obedience when he runs off after I yell at him for eating poop. Let's take dogs out of the question. Let's say you tell a kid he can't have a cookie, but when you're looking away he takes a cookie. Does he not know that he can't have it? Or is he willfully being disobedient? Now let's take it back to the dogs. Shadow knows the boundaries and respects them up until he eats poop and I yell his name in the I'm angry voice.



Stonevintage said:


> Sometimes I wonder if a dog cut before full maturity isn't stopped somehow in his mental maturity as well....so things don't move on and they settle and get trapped into a same mindset complete with learning issues....
> 
> again, you have sib bros so it's very interesting you have these two problems with 1 of your boys - I wish someone could explain this...at a documented level.


I've never thought about that haha. Shadow is our first neutered dog so I guess it's a learning experience. I just figured neutering would make him be more obedient as he's not smelling for dogs in heat to go chase after.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

selzer said:


> Punishing your dog is getting him in trouble.
> 
> So what do we want to do? Punish the dog for being afraid of punishment.
> 
> ...


I can agree with that, I took 2 classes when we first got our dogs and I quickly learned that dog training is more about training yourself.

As far as getting Shadow to stop eating poop / not running away, do you think I should forget about the punishing aspect of it? I'm thinking of how my parents raised me and when I did something bad, something got taken away or I got spanked. That just doesn't work with dogs in my opinion. Would a better option be to instead of yelling Shadows name and saying "knock it off" in the I'm mad voice, say his name in a commanding sharp voice and say "NO" in a commanding voice? I'm not sure if it's me saying his name sharply that's scaring him, or if it's the "knock it off" in the I'm mad voice. Tomorrow I'll try to just say his name in a sharp commanding voice and say "NO" and see where that gets me. Of course if it gets him to stop and he doesn't run off praises come.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You don't need to use a commanding voice, try teaching him to "leave it" instead. There are will threads that explain it better than I can.


----------



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

If you say his name and NO! You are saying him/his being NO! not the action he did. This is why it's more of a long haul back to commands for you. You're giving messages that personally attack his being (you don't like him!) not his action - and that's why he runs.... you hate him! not his action....


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

DT what everyone is trying to explain is that you have inadvertently taught Shadow to run out of the yard.It became a default behavior when he hears your angry voice IN THAT SPECIFIC SCENARIO.It's now an ingrained habit;angry voice= run.
In order for it to stop you must create a new behavior.Something as simple as just calling him to you instead of yelling at him.Or tossing him a favorite toy"Shadow catch!"Break the cycle.
I've got a poop eater too,lol!And on occasion he will still get in a lick or (Yuck!) pick up a piece.Then it's just"Samson leave it" in a normal voice.
Selzer's post makes so much sense.If something just isn't working rethink it and change it up.I think you're stuck in a rut expecting Shadow to run and thinking a new word or punishment will work.IMO same thing different day.
We've all been there!Having to rethink and see from a new perspective.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

Thank you guys, we've been working on the "leave it" part since they where puppies as they used to like to chew on rocks lol. I will try and apply that to the poop eating and let you guys know how that works out!


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> Shadow absolutely knows his boundaries, however it is willful dis-obedience when he runs off after I yell at him for eating poop. Let's take dogs out of the question. Let's say you tell a kid he can't have a cookie, but when you're looking away he takes a cookie. Does he not know that he can't have it? Or is he willfully being disobedient? Now let's take it back to the dogs. Shadow knows the boundaries and respects them up until he eats poop and I yell his name in the I'm angry voice.


If you want to cling to that thought, it's your choice. If you want to solve the problem, stop trying to humanize your dog and try to think like a dog. Do you know what proofing is? It's when you test a dog on a task or behavior and they get it right every single time in any setting. Your dog may be aware of the boundaries you have set up in your mind, but it's clear he doesn't respect them. His fear of your angry voice is far greater than his acceptance of boundaries. Dogs aren't children, they aren't people and they don't willfully disregard boundaries. He is reacting to you chasing him, not intentionally crossing an invisible boundary. It's up to you. If you want to stop the running behavior, then you need to teach the dog not to run off.

He's not pooping constantly, so if you keep him on the leash until he goes and you are sure he's not going to go again, then remove the leash and make him wait for a release command, he may go back to observing the boundaries. If you take the leash off and immediately let him run around, he will also learn to run off the second he is unleashed and you will have inadvertently taught another bad behavior.

I don't care if you leash him or not, it's your dog. But if you take it away too soon, you will not have stopped the problem. It can take a very long time to be sure your dog is proofed on anything. 

Got behaviors? Want proof? | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> You know what. Get an e collar, have someone responsible show you how to use it and correct him from a distance a second before his mouth touches the poop. Use a quiet voice. You need to stop him before he eats it not after. Once you raise your voice you have become ineffective.


I wouldn't start using an ecollar with this dog, even with help. The move to Idaho will have to go through Utah cause that's probably where he'll end up.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

So little update, as if the universe put the stars against me yet oddly for me, I let the dogs out and Dargun goes poop. Shadow doesn't touch it so I figure I'll leave it until we're done then I'll pick up it just to see if Shadow will try to eat it and if my new method will work. About 10 mins later, Shadow goes to eat it and I attempt the new method. I say Shadows name with a snap to get his attention and say "leave it" in a normal voice. Not the I love you voice or the I'm mad, voice, just a normal voice. He looked around like he does when he would bolt but he dropped it and went back to playing with Dargun. I'll keep doing this and report back in a week!


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> If you want to cling to that thought, it's your choice. If you want to solve the problem, stop trying to humanize your dog and try to think like a dog. Do you know what proofing is? It's when you test a dog on a task or behavior and they get it right every single time in any setting. Your dog may be aware of the boundaries you have set up in your mind, but it's clear he doesn't respect them. His fear of your angry voice is far greater than his acceptance of boundaries. Dogs aren't children, they aren't people and they don't willfully disregard boundaries. He is reacting to you chasing him, not intentionally crossing an invisible boundary. It's up to you. If you want to stop the running behavior, then you need to teach the dog not to run off.
> 
> He's not pooping constantly, so if you keep him on the leash until he goes and you are sure he's not going to go again, then remove the leash and make him wait for a release command, he may go back to observing the boundaries. If you take the leash off and immediately let him run around, he will also learn to run off the second he is unleashed and you will have inadvertently taught another bad behavior.
> 
> ...


Again, I have tested both dogs many times, and they have passed a test not set by me. I run the RC truck down the street and they don't run after it. When the lady came with her dog they didn't chase them. It's only when Shadow got in trouble did he leave the area. You may call this not knowing boundaries, but at the end of the day it's willful disobedience.

I had both dogs trained really well. My brother and my dad both work out of state so that left me to watch the dogs as no one else in the house will sit out with them. I still have to work, so when I'm mowing lawns or something I had them follow me and lay down until I went out of site. I know they both respect me and my commands that they understand (for example they won't roll over if I say roll over because I haven't taught them). I think the other guy hit the nail on the head- I was scaring Shadow with the I'm mad voice and like any living creature that is scared, he ran.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Double Trouble said:


> Again, I have tested both dogs many times, and they have passed a test not set by me. I run the RC truck down the street and they don't run after it. When the lady came with her dog they didn't chase them. It's only when Shadow got in trouble did he leave the area. You may call this not knowing boundaries, but at the end of the day it's willful disobedience.
> 
> I had both dogs trained really well. My brother and my dad both work out of state so that left me to watch the dogs as no one else in the house will sit out with them. I still have to work, so when I'm mowing lawns or something I had them follow me and lay down until I went out of site. I know they both respect me and my commands that they understand (for example they won't roll over if I say roll over because I haven't taught them). I think the other guy hit the nail on the head- I was scaring Shadow with the I'm mad voice and like any living creature that is scared, he ran.


Well, good, then you have no more problems and your situation has been resolved. Since you apparently know more about dog psychology than I do, I have said as much as I can here. Good luck with your dog.


----------



## Double Trouble (Jun 17, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Well, good, then you have no more problems and your situation has been resolved. Since you apparently know more about dog psychology than I do, I have said as much as I can here. Good luck with your dog.


This isn't about who knows what or who doesn't know what. I am explaining the problem and you didn't understand what I was saying so I had to explain it to you in another way. 

By the way, this is the internet. I don't know you and you don't know me. I have been a dog psychologist for the past 20 years, you wouldn't know the better. I take information that people give and I see if it's reasonable or not. I ask how you punish your dog and you go on about how my dog does not know his boundaries because he runs off. I'm trying to keep you on track here, but I got more useful information from other people. Thank you for your effort professor.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Whats a dog psychologist?


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Double Trouble said:


> This isn't about who knows what or who doesn't know what. I am explaining the problem and you didn't understand what I was saying so I had to explain it to you in another way.
> 
> .


This is the problem. What you think you proved in those experiments is that the dog is 100% on boundaries.

What you actually proved? Your dog knows not to chase the RC car when it is driving outside the yard. He knows not to chase that lady when she walks by with her dog.

What we know? Your dog knows that leaving the boundary is the way to escape from your anger.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I ask how you punish your dog and you go on about how my dog does not know his boundaries because he runs off.


He knows his boundaries, with out a doubt. Its wherever he wants it to be or until animal control catches him. Whichever comes first. I don't have to know you to read what you typed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I just want to know what OP is going to do when some day Animal Control calls to tell him that they have his dog. They scraped him off the road a few blocks away. I wonder if OP will think back to all the knowledgeable people who gave him sound advice on here and wonder if he should have given the advice some serious consideration rather than argue who was right and who was wrong on this thread.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sit on the couch and analyze it?


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

OK, I think this thread and the sarcasm have run their course. OP, if you want to post about your progress, please do so in a new thread. 

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa


----------

