# Our 5-year old son was attacked by our neighbor's supposed "service dog”!?!?



## Wulf

So our neighbor has a service dog due to his PTSD. He also fosters other service dogs-in training. Back when I did search & rescue, there were people in my organization who trained service dogs (it was their full-time job, SAR was their hobby), so I got to witness some quality animals who were always calm and very well trained. I've also seen many service dogs while out and about, and none of them ever acted up or made me think they weren't service dogs. Maybe I was experiencing the cream of the crop, or was just lucky enough to see the good ones.


I've never been impressed by this particular neighbor's dogs, as I hear them growling, barking, whimpering, whining and basically misbehaving (if they are indeed service dogs) all of the time (or they're really just acting like normal untrained or barely trained pets/dogs). I even hear my neighbor in his yard hitting and beating and cursing at his dogs when they don't listen to him. I've researched the service dog company that donates these dogs, and it looks as if they are taking random dogs out of shelters, giving them some training to pass simple tests, and then giving them away for free as "supposed" service dogs.


Well, his main personal fully-trained service dog was accidentally let out of the house by one of his children. I don't even think he was home (not sure why his dog wasn't with him as he's usually with him whenever he goes somewhere). This dog ran into our yard and chased our son, who was playing with the neighbor's children. Their children screamed at and grabbed the dog and dragged him back inside their house. Within minutes, the same child went in and out again, again letting the dog escape a second time. The dog ran back into our yard, chased our son, clamped down onto his hip and bit him, leaving the 4 canine bite marks and puncturing/bruising his skin. My wife was home with windows and doors open, but the screaming kids sounded like kids playing (these particular neighbor kids are always loud and screaming). When my wife heard crying, she came out to investigate. By that time the dog had stopped biting and chasing my son, as I believe the neighbor kids again grabbed the dog and were in the process of putting him back inside. That's when my wife found out that this happened twice, but the first time the dog was grabbed before he could bite. The neighbor's parents never came out, and I don't think their children ever told them about the incident because there's been no apology. My wife is friendly with his wife, and she's been waiting until she sees her outside to go over and make her aware of what happened. My wife is an introvert and doesn't want to go over there if they are both home, with or without me. She also wanted to figure out the best way to approach this so they don't try to turn this around on us and claim it's our son's fault that it happened. She's been asking friends who might have experience with this sort of thing. Our kids have never been attacked before, so this is new to us. 


This service dog in question happened to be a pit bull. I have nothing against pit bulls, and I would own one in a second. I've been around plenty of them in shelters as a volunteer and with friends/co-workers who owned them. But I will admit that the majority of attacks on our dogs have come from pit bulls, and now 100% of the attacks on our children have been from a pit bull who is supposedly a service dog. It blows my mind.


So on top of this, last night we were at the vet with our dog and an older couple brought in 4 service dogs, all wearing SERVICE DOG vests. These dogs were barking and going ballistic as soon as they walked in the door and saw the other dogs in the waiting area. The vet staff told us that the service dogs don't get along with other dogs, so this couple was given a room to go back to before all of the other people who had been waiting longer.


*These 2 incidents got me thinking: have service dog requirements suddenly been relaxed? I've never seen service dogs attack people, children, other dogs, or even act up while out in public. Usually they are very calm, focused, and doing their job 100% of the time that they are with their person. I know there are plenty of people parading around with their pet claiming it's a service dog just so they can bring the dog anywhere and everywhere. Sometimes it's difficult to differentiate real SDs from pet "SDs". But in both cases here, they are confirmed SDs.*


The situation with my son getting bit is a sticky one, as we want to stay on good terms with all of our neighbors for various reasons. Our son's wounds have healed (though my wife took pictures of the bite marks as proof just in case we ever need it), he doesn't seem to be traumatized in any way towards dogs which is good, and we established new rules that our kids are not allowed to play outside if the neighbors are home. I understand that a dog attack can happen in seconds just as this one did, and that the next time it could be fatal (for our kids or any of the other neighborhood children). We want to make this dog's owners aware, and make our other neighbors aware, because a lot of our neighbors have small children and sometimes they're allowed to wander the neighborhood unsupervised. With this possibly vicious dog under the guise of a service dog title being allowed to escape and roam the neighborhood, we worry for other children's lives now.


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## Thecowboysgirl

There are tons of people who are taking advantage and bringing fake service dogs in public. There are also tons of people who are just ignorant and aren't really trying to be fraudulent, they just don't know the difference between a service dog and an emotional support animal and a therapy dog....they throw out whatever lingo comes to mind and these animals are usually just beloved pets or ESAs by legal definition.

Regardless, I feel strongly that you should have and should still report the bite. The dog is dangerous, it isn't being properly contained, it could have and could still get much worse. Document the injury, call the cops and call animal control. If the dog was actually a service dog it has no business ever working in public again.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Thecowboysgirl said:


> There are tons of people who are taking advantage and bringing fake service dogs in public. There are also tons of people who are just ignorant and aren't really trying to be fraudulent, they just don't know the difference between a service dog and an emotional support animal and a therapy dog....they throw out whatever lingo comes to mind and these animals are usually just beloved pets or ESAs by legal definition.
> 
> Regardless, I feel strongly that you should have and should still report the bite. The dog is dangerous, it isn't being properly contained, it could have and could still get much worse. Document the injury, call the cops and call animal control. If the dog was actually a service dog it has no business ever working in public again.


Completely agree. What are you waiting for? Report this. Did you take your son to the hospital/doctor? I would have thought they would have reported it. This is nothing to play round with.


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## Wulf

Thecowboysgirl said:


> There are tons of people who are taking advantage and bringing fake service dogs in public. There are also tons of people who are just ignorant and aren't really trying to be fraudulent, they just don't know the difference between a service dog and an emotional support animal and a therapy dog....they throw out whatever lingo comes to mind and these animals are usually just beloved pets or ESAs by legal definition.
> 
> Regardless, I feel strongly that you should have and should still report the bite. The dog is dangerous, it isn't being properly contained, it could have and could still get much worse. Document the injury, call the cops and call animal control. If the dog was actually a service dog it has no business ever working in public again.


 
So the community where we live, we are only allowed 2 pets. We have more than 2 pets (all of them are rescues who needed a home. Actually, many people here illegally have more than 2 pets [or have dog breeds that are banned; i.e. Pitbulls!], to include our neighbors.), so we're worried that if we report them over this bite, they could report us, as they know how many pets we have. This would create major problems, so our hands are somewhat tied, unintentionally. They are moving in a matter of weeks, and we're moving within 6 months. We won't have any issues between their dogs and our children with the new rules in place, but other families who live around them and are unaware might run into problems. This is a very difficult situation, especially if the dog kills someone and we had advanced warning. Our first step is to at least make them aware that they need to have better control over their dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl

My opinion is that your child's and everyone else's child's safety is the priority and it is your obligation to report this dog's behavior.

If it warrants the dog being declared dangerous in your state/county they can impose regulations on this dog about how it is housed and kept and impose siezure and euthanasia if those standards aren't met, which is appropriate.


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## Wulf

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My opinion is that your child's and everyone else's child's safety is the priority and it is your obligation to report this dog's behavior.
> 
> If it warrants the dog being declared dangerous in your state/county they can impose regulations on this dog about how it is housed and kept and impose siezure and euthanasia if those standards aren't met, which is appropriate.


In this particular situation, if we report this incident and they seek revenge and report our illegal number of pets, I could potentially lose my job and my retirement pension. I'm 6 months away from retirement. This isn't something I can play around with. We did not take our son to the hospital. My wife treated his wounds and did not deem them bad enough to warrant a doctor visit.


My wife learned her lesson when one of our 100%-indoor house cats scratched her hand and it got infected while she was pregnant, so she went to the hospital for treatment and told them what happened. Well, the community management quarantined our cat and we had to pay all sorts of money to run lab tests and pay for unnecessary vet bills with the threat of them putting our cat down (for a simple cat scratch!). Needless to say we'll be glad to move in half a year!


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## Steve Strom

Wulf said:


> In this particular situation, if we report this incident and they seek revenge and report our illegal number of pets, I could potentially lose my job and my retirement pension. I'm 6 months away from retirement. This isn't something I can play around with. We did not take our son to the hospital. My wife treated his wounds and did not deem them bad enough to warrant a doctor visit.
> 
> 
> My wife learned her lesson when one of our 100%-indoor house cats scratched her hand and it got infected while she was pregnant, so she went to the hospital for treatment and told them what happened. Well, the community management quarantined our cat and we had to pay all sorts of money to run lab tests and pay for unnecessary vet bills with the threat of them putting our cat down (for a simple cat scratch!). Needless to say we'll be glad to move in half a year!


Too many pets can affect your job and pension? With all due respect, you put yourself in this position and you've already decided you aren't going to do anything. There's no advice to give you.


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## CarrieJo

Okay no offense but for your son's sake you need to at the very least make sure he has had his rabies vaccine. I don't like vaccines but the idea of anyone having to undergo a series of shots is really unthinkable. 

Second I am trying to learn about training my dog to be a service dog but if she had ever shown aggression to other people I wouldn't let her become one. My understanding it takes a lot of time and training and I am still just working on the basics and figure if she was ever to be a service dog I would have to invest at least 2 years of training on top of what I am doing now. Maybe I am just ignorant but I would never want my dog to attack a person much less a child. Now if there are kids breaking into my home that is another matter all together.

So even if you do not report it which you probably should being that 1. your kid was not in the dog's yard 2. what happens if he attacks a smaller child or goes for the throat the next time? Gosh forbid it happens again before you leave and you lose a child yours or a neighbors. Then they are going to go at you for not reporting it in the first place. (of course I don't know the laws in your state or where you are but just because you are in the right doesn't mean you can't be sued. 3. YOU HAVE TO MAKE SURE SINCE THE SKIN WAS BROKEN THAT HE HAS A CURRENT RABIES VACCINE! That is for your child's health much less an adult. Personally as long as a dog has had 2 vaccines in their lives of rabies a year apart I would be good even if it had been over 3 years because Texas A & M did a long study that the rabies vaccine last at least 10 years (they didn't do the study longer than 10 years)

At the very least I would really ask to see proof of vaccine for the particular dog that bit him for your son's sake.


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## gsdsar

How can you lose your job because you have too many animals? 

I know you are in a bit of sticky situation BUT A DOG ATTACKED YOUR CHILD!! Seriously! 

This needs to be reported. Now! Although with as much time as has passed I don't know what will happen now. 

A dog attacked your child! These people kids don't have control or foresight and WILL let the dog out again. What if the next child it attacks dies. Are you going to be ok with that??

Have you even talked to neighbor yet?? Geez, I get your wife is an introvert, but for goodness sake A DOG ATTACKED YOUR CHILD ! Why the heck are you hemming and hawing. 

Keep your extra cats inside and hidden, they cannot force their way into your home to check and REPORT THIS!


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## CarrieJo

Also if you do not report it do not let your kids have friends over until you move away from him as a homeowner you would probably be legally responsible even if it wasn't your dog!


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## CarrieJo

gsdsar said:


> How can you lose your job because you have too many animals?
> 
> I know you are in a bit of sticky situation BUT A DOG ATTACKED YOUR CHILD!! Seriously!
> 
> This needs to be reported. Now! Although with as much time as has passed I don't know what will happen now.
> 
> A dog attacked your child! These people kids don't have control or foresight and WILL let the dog out again. What if the next child it attacks dies. Are you going to be ok with that??
> 
> Have you even talked to neighbor yet?? Geez, I get your wife is an introvert, but for goodness sake A DOG ATTACKED YOUR CHILD ! Why the heck are you hemming and hawing.
> 
> Keep your extra cats inside and hidden, they cannot force their way into your home to check and REPORT THIS!



Yea take your extra animals somewhere else for a while.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Wulf said:


> This is a very difficult situation, especially if the dog kills someone and we had advanced warning.


You think this dog might "kill" somebody and you are choosing inaction? What if that somebody it kills is your child?


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## Stevenzachsmom

OP, you spew all the stuff about service dogs not being service dogs, too many pets, your pension, etc. None of that is here nor there. There is only ONE point - Your child was bitten by a dog and you have chosen to do nothing.


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## GatorBytes

WOW... A lot of really good points here. I am sitting on the fence of both sides to reasons why. Especially the over legal limit as to why you don't want to report.


1) Yes, you have to report it for reasons already noted
2) Rabies reason is easy enough fix. You are tight with them, they will respect you asking for UTD or even a titer (at their expense) if not utd...
3) They are moving in weeks. You report, by time it comes back to you (if), you will be moving too. Like GSDSAR said, they cannot walk in if you say no (in most situations, bite maybe different and depending on area/laws) and you would likely get an extension based on your move
4) You are tight with neighbour and don't want to rock the boat...yes, but you're BOTH moving, so you don't have to worry about the next 20 yrs.!
5) Talk to the neighbour before in your best we love you guys way, as you lay out the facts as to why you have to


Side note: I didn't report a pitbull attack on my dog for fear that in his senior yrs he would have to have a rabies shot. I didn't license him for that reason (new town, so proof may have been req'd). Public health got involved due to my injury (hospital reported). No one came after me for proof or rabies or license. They just determined the PB to quarantine at home. AC was to be called by ME to report them. I was too scared


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## maxtmill

Wow. I don't even know what to say. Your child was bitten by a pittbull that has been known to be poorly trained. You really should report it, make sure it was rabies vaccinated. If the wound is healed, it could conceivably be too late to prevent a deadly rabies infection in your child! If you have over the limit on pets, just keep them inside - the animal control people cannot just barge into your home. If pittbulls are banned in your housing development, the neighbors may find themselves in trouble, but that is not your fault.


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## WateryTart

gsdsar said:


> How can you lose your job because you have too many animals?
> 
> I know you are in a bit of sticky situation BUT A DOG ATTACKED YOUR CHILD!! Seriously!
> 
> This needs to be reported. Now! Although with as much time as has passed I don't know what will happen now.
> 
> A dog attacked your child! These people kids don't have control or foresight and WILL let the dog out again. What if the next child it attacks dies. Are you going to be ok with that??
> 
> Have you even talked to neighbor yet?? Geez, I get your wife is an introvert, but for goodness sake A DOG ATTACKED YOUR CHILD ! Why the heck are you hemming and hawing.
> 
> Keep your extra cats inside and hidden, they cannot force their way into your home to check and REPORT THIS!


Introversion has nothing to do with this. Introversion/extroversion refers to how an individual is energized and is NOT synonymous with shyness. His wife may well prefer to recharge alone versus being in company with a crowd of people, but this has nothing to do with reticence. An off-the-charts introvert may still be assertive enough to address such a situation.

I guess you have to protect your livelihood if you really will lose both your job and your retirement, but declining to report this is simply not a good choice. I'm willing to be understanding that it could be the best choice for you, but objectively this is a bad choice. If the dog hurts your child again, or hurts someone else, that's partly on you now. 

I am trying to imagine how the OP's job and pension are at stake if he is caught with too many animals, but I'm coming up empty. That just seems crazy and frankly improbable to me. In any case, maybe this is a warning to begin downsizing and/or not replacing animals when they pass, and remaining under the limit in the future. If you follow the rules, you have a lot less to fear.


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## Wulf

Thanks to everyone for your advice.


My real question was more about understanding how these dogs become service dogs officially. This neighbor brings his dog to work and has the full blown service dog vest and everything. I'm 99.9% certain that service dogs are not supposed to attack children. I've read where service dogs are sometimes doctor prescribed. Are these dogs certified? Are there state tests they have to pass? Is it a federal program? Who regulates these dogs? I'm really starting to think that the place where he got this dog is not really distributing true service dogs. It's a dishonor to everyone who gets one of these poorly trained dogs (thinking they are true SDs), and it has now become a problem to anyone who lives around someone with one of these poorly trained dogs.


I'll see if you guys know, and I'll also google it.


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## ILGHAUS

As has been mentioned there are many individuals who for one reason or another buy a SD vest and put it on their pet dog or just verbally tell others it is a SD.

Some reasons are:
Banned breed in their area
Don't want to pay a pet deposit
Don't want to pay to transport a pet via airline
Want to be able to take their "Fluffy" everywhere they go
Dog has Separation Anxiety (SA) and can not be left home alone
Owner is not legally disabled, but likes the attention

There are also people who "train & sell" Service Dogs for an extra income and have no knowledge of the laws or how to properly train a dog. Most of the time these people have no idea how to pick a proper prospect and just grab the cheapest or easiest dog around. There are a great many people who will form a non-profit so they can receive donations. 

Scammers and unethical people are all around.


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## ILGHAUS

> I've never been impressed by this particular neighbor's dogs, as I hear them growling, barking, whimpering, whining and basically misbehaving (if they are indeed service dogs) all of the time (or they're really just acting like normal untrained or barely trained pets/dogs). I even hear my neighbor in his yard hitting and beating and cursing at his dogs when they don't listen to him. I've researched the service dog company that donates these dogs, and it looks as if they are taking random dogs out of shelters, giving them some training to pass simple tests, and then giving them away for free as "supposed" service dogs.


This sounds to me like it pretty well sums up the quality of trainer, SD group and quality of SD prospects involved.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Legally a SD meets definition if the person has a disabling medical condition, the dog is trained to perform tasks to mitigate that disability. This can be 100 percent owner trained with no professional help but businesses and other public places do have the right to ask a dog to leave that is out of control or not potty trained.

Lots of them are professionally trained through reputable organizations. Plenty of individuals owner train well behaved, useful, safe dogs. Training consists of public access training, where the dog learns to behave in public without sniffing people, merchandise ect, be quiet. Then there is task training where the dog learns its tasks such as retrieving items for a person who is wheelchair bound or guiding a blind person. These tasks will then be proofed in public too. Many dogs through big programs will be "team certified" with their handler, I am with my first SD. But there is no state or national certification, only the legal definition as stated above per Americans with Disabilities Act

Then....there is the rest. If this dog/guy represent an organization other than himself personally, I would absolutely notify that organization that this dog is dangerous and should not be working


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## Thecowboysgirl

If the whole organization is shady then report THEM too... I am not sure to who, BBB, scam alert, idk


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## MineAreWorkingline

Debate over 'fake' service animals


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## ILGHAUS

Wulf said:


> Thanks to everyone for your advice.
> 
> 
> My real question was more about understanding how these dogs become service dogs officially. This neighbor brings his dog to work and has the full blown service dog vest and everything. I'm 99.9% certain that service dogs are not supposed to attack children. I've read where service dogs are sometimes doctor prescribed. Are these dogs certified? Are there state tests they have to pass? Is it a federal program? Who regulates these dogs? I'm really starting to think that the place where he got this dog is not really distributing true service dogs. It's a dishonor to everyone who gets one of these poorly trained dogs (thinking they are true SDs), and it has now become a problem to anyone who lives around someone with one of these poorly trained dogs.
> 
> 
> I'll see if you guys know, and I'll also google it.



I've taken your post down into Q&A style so as to answer you in an easy format.


"The neighbor brings his dog to work" ... anyone can take a pet dog on the job if the employer allows it. Some people must put in a formal request and undergo a process to seek permission to do so. We don't know the details on this situation of your neighbor so anything said here would only be opinions based on no real information.

"and has the full blown service dog vest and everything" ... vests are easy to purchase via the Internet. Patches are also easily purchased. 
Registering a SD, buying gear and official looking ID are only as hard to buy as going through any of dozens fakers/scammers who sell these things online.



> Q. 17 Does the ADA require that service animals be certified as service animals?
> A: No. Covered entities may not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has
> been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal, as a condition for entry.
> 
> There are individuals and organizations that sell service animal certification or registration
> documents online. These documents do not convey any rights under the ADA and the
> Department of Justice does not recognize them as proof that the dog is a service animal.
> 
> _Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA
> U.S. Department of Justice
> Civil Rights Division
> Disability Rights Section_



" I'm 99.9% certain that service dogs are not supposed to attack children." ... A SD should never bite anyone without just cause and under no circumstances should ever attack anyone of any age. A bite to protect itself or their handler can be validated in some cases, but then the dog should be evaluated by a behaviorist to make sure the dog is okay to go back into service. In the case as cited above there is no justified reason for that dog to have attacked anyone much less a child. At that point it should be treated as any other aggressive dangerous animal. It should never be used as a SD in public or even taken out into public again without a muzzle and then only as needed such as a trip to a veterinarian. 

"I've read where service dogs are sometimes doctor prescribed." ... No, a doctor or other mental health care professional can prescribe an Emotional Support Animal (ESA). An ESA is not a Service Dog. These are two separate legal classifications.

A doctor can in their professional opinion state that a SD would be of help for their patient.
This can be of importance for the patient to be aware of especially if the doctor makes a notation in the medical files as a point of consideration if there is ever a future need. 

The Department of Justice (DOJ) the Federal Agency mandated by Congress to oversee Title II and Title III of the ADA does not require a doctor to sign off on any forms or letters that their patient needs or could be helped by using a SD.

"Are these dogs certified? Are there state tests they have to pass? Is it a federal program? Who regulates these dogs?" ... in short no. A Program SD is certified per the in-house policies of the program that trained it, but these are only for the program's internal record keeping. The DOJ has given a definition of what a SD is. There are various documents that have been published on the behavior of a SD. There are Federal and sometimes State Laws on Service Dogs. If a SD becomes a community problem or is dangerous they are treated as any other potentially dangerous dog. By virtue of being trained as a SD does not give the animal license to act in an aggressive manner.

"I'm really starting to think that the place where he got this dog is not really distributing true service dogs. It's a dishonor to everyone who gets one of these poorly trained dogs (thinking they are true SDs), and it has now become a problem to anyone who lives around someone with one of these poorly trained dogs." ... nothing more can be said to your statement here. You are 100% correct in this.


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## stepkau

Wulf - Glad your son is going to be okay.. sounds like there is a whole lot of gray area with SD reading this thread.. 

You're in the middle of things and sometimes emotions and other factors make decisions like reporting/not-reporting difficult. I know you have lots of concerns and the correct course of action is hard to see.. Those that have taken the time to read your post and comment can perhaps see things more clearly because they're not emotionally invested.. 

For the record I also believe you need to talk with your neighbor about rabies shots. From your original post, I'm not sure an adult owner of the dog even knows this happened. You can ask them to "self reported" the incident during the conversation without being confrontational about it. If they say they haven't or won't you can act surprised and remind them that it's their responsibility to do so.. Also that "it looks so much better to AC when you self report".. A little passive/aggressive but it will put them on notice that this isn't going to be swept under the rug. Let some time go by and follow up with AC to check the status of the report? Then file the report if they have not done so.. Just my opinion.. I wish you the best and hope things turn out..


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## Deb

Wulf, the simple answer to your question is no one regulates it. You got a lot of responses, but not what you really wanted. Read your initial post again and put yourself out of the equation. If you were reading this from someone else, what would you say to them? 


I sincerely pray this dog doesn't kill the next child because odds are it *will* attack another child.


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## Stevenzachsmom

OP, have you considered that the more time you allow to go by with inaction, makes you less believable? The neighbor can deny this ever happened - it wasn't 'his' dog. The authorities would ask, "Why didn't you report this immediately? Why didn't you take your son for medical treatment?" You worry about how many pets you have and your pension. Have you worried about being considered an unfit parent and having your children taken away? I honestly don't think you have thought this through. Your response, or lack there of, does not seem normal to the rest of us.

My daughter was bitten by a dog, when she was 6. It was her fault. I admit that. We were at the horse farm. It was an old farm dog. I was yelling, "NO!" as I saw what she was about to do. She bent over and hugged the old dog who had been sleeping. He bit her in the face. It wasn't a bad bite. Hardly broke the skin. He wasn't a nasty dog. She surprised him and should not have. Even so, I immediately went to the owner and told him what happened. All I wanted to know was, "Is your dog up to date on his shots?" There was no yelling or accusations. I later called his vet to verify the shots. I called my pediatrician who felt since it wasn't a bad bite and both my daughter and the dog were UTD on shots, it was OK. I covered my bases.

You have not covered your bases. If this dog attacks another child you will, as others have stated, share in the blame. Can you live with that?


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## Muskeg

Agree. This is your child. It sounds like there are a lot of small children around and this dog is let to run wild. It's a dog that has already shown it will bite a child, from a breed renowned for mauling kids. It makes no sense to not at least inform the owners. Dog had fun the first time, there is no reason it won't bite again.


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## Steve Strom

Wulf said:


> Thanks to everyone for your advice.
> 
> 
> My real question was more about understanding how these dogs become service dogs officially. This neighbor brings his dog to work and has the full blown service dog vest and everything. I'm 99.9% certain that service dogs are not supposed to attack children. I've read where service dogs are sometimes doctor prescribed. Are these dogs certified? Are there state tests they have to pass? Is it a federal program? Who regulates these dogs? I'm really starting to think that the place where he got this dog is not really distributing true service dogs. It's a dishonor to everyone who gets one of these poorly trained dogs (thinking they are true SDs), and it has now become a problem to anyone who lives around someone with one of these poorly trained dogs.
> 
> 
> I'll see if you guys know, and I'll also google it.


I'm 100% certain NO dog should attack kids, but unfortunately it does happen. Forget about the whole service dog thing. For every legit, reputable trainer and organization there's a group of goofs scamming the whole thing.


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## WateryTart

I'm still stuck on how the heck can a person get fired and lose his retirement as punishment for violating an animal ordinance? I'm truly curious. It's outside of my realm of experience.


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## maxtmill

WateryTart said:


> I'm still stuck on how the heck can a person get fired and lose his retirement as punishment for violating an animal ordinance? I'm truly curious. It's outside of my realm of experience.


I wonder, too - just nosey I guess.


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## maxtmill

Stevenzachsmom said:


> OP, have you considered that the more time you allow to go by with inaction, makes you less believable? The neighbor can deny this ever happened - it wasn't 'his' dog. The authorities would ask, "Why didn't you report this immediately? Why didn't you take your son for medical treatment?" You worry about how many pets you have and your pension. Have you worried about being considered an unfit parent and having your children taken away? I honestly don't think you have thought this through. Your response, or lack there of, does not seem normal to the rest of us.
> 
> My daughter was bitten by a dog, when she was 6. It was her fault. I admit that. We were at the horse farm. It was an old farm dog. I was yelling, "NO!" as I saw what she was about to do. She bent over and hugged the old dog who had been sleeping. He bit her in the face. It wasn't a bad bite. Hardly broke the skin. He wasn't a nasty dog. She surprised him and should not have. Even so, I immediately went to the owner and told him what happened. All I wanted to know was, "Is your dog up to date on his shots?" There was no yelling or accusations. I later called his vet to verify the shots. I called my pediatrician who felt since it wasn't a bad bite and both my daughter and the dog were UTD on shots, it was OK. I covered my bases.
> 
> You have not covered your bases. If this dog attacks another child you will, as others have stated, share in the blame. Can you live with that?


I totally agree that if another child is bitten or killed, the weight of that will be heavy on you!


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I am a little surprised reading back over this thread seeing commentors who normally would go into overkill at the slightest infraction of the law turn a blind eye to OP's neighbors owning a banned breed. These same people can't even find it to speak out about the dog being off leash and they surely would have had the breed been a non fighting breed puppy, or other normally innocuous breed, as has happened in the past. 

It makes me wonder what is truly behind all the harassment members receive on other threads for such things as having well behaved dogs off leash or about other people not cleaning up dog poop when there are no receptacles and other minor, harmless infractions of the law. 

Does one get to pick and choose what laws to follow? Is it a matter of convenience? Just what is it? Does it have something to do with the breed? Does owning specific breeds endow those owners with an automatic free pass to break the law without the usual outcry? Who makes that decision?

I have seen the finger pointed at OP, his introverted wife, his job and even the number of his pets, ... *a lot of victim blaming*, even blatantly stating his concerns over his job and pension seem crazy and improbable. Yet, nobody points the finger at the neighbor whose reckless and irresponsible actions has inflicted what has been deemed a dangerous animal by his community's law makers, with the support of his community, upon his family neighborhood resulting in a child being attacked. 

OP's best option at this point, which also protects his family, pets, job and pension, would be to turn this law breaker in for owning a banned breed. He should let the authorities know that the Pit Bull is responsible for an unreported attack on a child. This can all be done anonymously and would be in OP's and the community's better interest.

OP, I am truly sorry what people have said to you on this thread and for the aspersions they have cast on your concerns. Your child has been attacked and bitten, you did not deserve to be treated so poorly.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Speaking for myself only....I did not realize pits were banned where OP lives, obviously I missed that part? So that did not even factor into anything I said.

I suggested that the OP report the bite to the appropriate authorities hoping that those authorities would force the owner of the pit to control it properly because the actions of the pits owner so far made me think they aren't going to do any better with this dog until someone forces them to.

And if OP is in the US and it is really a service dog, that usually trumps state legislation banning breeds. So I believe you can have a pit bull SD even in a place where pit bulls are banned. But I also don't know what country OP is in...


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Speaking for myself only....I did not realize pits were banned where OP lives, obviously I missed that part? So that did not even factor into anything I said.
> 
> I suggested that the OP report the bite to the appropriate authorities hoping that those authorities would force the owner of the pit to control it properly because the actions of the pits owner so far made me think they aren't going to do any better with this dog until someone forces them to.
> 
> And if OP is in the US and it is really a service dog, that usually trumps state legislation banning breeds. So I believe you can have a pit bull SD even in a place where pit bulls are banned. But I also don't know what country OP is in...


OP has stated the breed is banned in his community. A Pit Bull SD would trump a banning BUT there would be a lot more accountability and documentation required in such a case, in essence: prove it.

Even if it were a documentable SD, it won't be the first Pit Bull SD to bite or attack. It just opens up a whole new venue that needs to be addressed.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Speaking for myself only....I did not realize pits were banned where OP lives, obviously I missed that part? So that did not even factor into anything I said.
> 
> I suggested that the OP report the bite to the appropriate authorities hoping that those authorities would force the owner of the pit to control it properly because the actions of the pits owner so far made me think they aren't going to do any better with this dog until someone forces them to.
> 
> And if OP is in the US and it is really a service dog, that usually trumps state legislation banning breeds. So I believe you can have a pit bull SD even in a place where pit bulls are banned. But I also don't know what country OP is in...


It appears that in order to circumvent a breed banning for a SD, exemption ordinances must be passed.

Pit bull service dog attacks three people in Yakima | Local | yakimaherald.com


----------



## Steve Strom

> I have seen the finger pointed at OP, his introverted wife, his job and even the number of his pets, ... a lot of victim blaming, even blatantly stating his concerns over his job and pension seem crazy and improbable. Yet, nobody points the finger at the neighbor whose reckless and irresponsible actions has inflicted what has been deemed a dangerous animal by his community's law makers, with the support of his community, upon his family neighborhood resulting in a child being attacked.


To be honest MAWL, and I would say there's a certain amount of finger pointing from me, I have a very difficult time understanding not going directly to the neighbor and speaking to them about it. And if you live in a place where there are strict rules that can effect your employment and pension and then you choose to ignore them? You talk about reckless and irresponsible, your families security and well being put aside for a couple extra cats? 

Even if the neighbor was a good friend or we hated each other, if you don't want to go to animal control this time you can't just explain to him that dog better not be on your property again and I want proof of his rabies vaccination right now? The neighbor may be the biggest goof in the world but you have a responsibility as a husband and father to your family.


----------



## Deb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It appears that in order to circumvent a breed banning for a SD, exemption ordinances must be passed.
> 
> Pit bull service dog attacks three people in Yakima | Local | yakimaherald.com


I really wish they wouldn't publish this kind of information in newspapers as it really opens a door that shouldn't be opened. How many more will read this and decide they can do it, too.
Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the city is only allowed to ask if the dog has been trained as a service animal, and what kind of service it performs. Caruso said the city is not allowed to ask for documentation showing the dog's training or proof that the person registering a service animal is actually disabled.


This has to be a hard reality for the OP, his child was bit and yet he feels behind the eight ball if he reports it. Now he has to live with the fear that what if the dog gets out again? His wife and kids could just be walking to their car and the dog could get out and attack again, maybe seriously hurting or maiming one of his children, they could be walking to the door from the school bus, going out for the mail, etc.. If his phone rings at work he has to be afraid it might be the call that says his child is on the way to the hospital. He now, because of his job and pension, he has to live in fear.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Steve Strom said:


> To be honest MAWL, and I would say there's a certain amount of finger pointing from me, I have a very difficult time understanding not going directly to the neighbor and speaking to them about it. And if you live in a place where there are strict rules that can effect your employment and pension and then you choose to ignore them? You talk about reckless and irresponsible, your families security and well being put aside for a couple extra cats?
> 
> Even if the neighbor was a good friend or we hated each other, if you don't want to go to animal control this time you can't just explain to him that dog better not be on your property again and I want proof of his rabies vaccination right now? The neighbor may be the biggest goof in the world but you have a responsibility as a husband and father to your family.


Steve, OP was put in a predicament that predates this incident and had chose inaction. If we were to point fingers, the time to do so was before this child was attacked.

To be told: "In any case, maybe this is a warning to begin downsizing and/or not replacing animals when they pass, and remaining under the limit in the future. If you follow the rules, you have a lot less to fear." is victim blaming to the nth degree. What a terrible thing to say to somebody who has had their child attacked and by the same token is worried about their job and pension regardless of their role in the scenario. How can one point an accusatory finger at OP as a lawbreaker and in essence, reaping what they sow for their errant ways while deliberately ignoring the role and actions of the neighbor who chooses to break a law that endangers people and pets in the community?

On a more personal note, if you had some of my neighbors, you would not go to them either. 

I think blaming strict rules where OP lives for his employment and pension predicament is really reaching. I speculate that OP's job hinges on him keeping a squeaky clean record as his job might entail him being upheld as a role model to children or other such consideration. Either way, it is none of our business and has nothing to do with his neighbor owning a banned breed that attacked his child. That is 100% on his neighbor.

People keep telling OP to keep his extra cats inside, did I miss something? Did OP even say he owns cats? Regardless, I agree that the health and welfare of one's family is a priority. But lets be honest, his community did not put dog breeds on pieces of paper and pull names out of a hat to ban a breed. There is a valid reason that his community banned Pit Bulls and if we are to fault OP on anything, it should have been his lack of action in turning the Pit Bull in to the proper authorities in the first place. He didn't. Nobody did. And now his child was bitten by a banned breed. It could have been worse, a child or pet could have been killed. It happens. If anything, OP's actions BEFORE the attack were reckless and irresponsible and led to this incident. 

Let me take a moment to make it quite clear that the purpose of breed banning and BSL is to *prevent the initial bite or attack*, not to punish after the fact. To say he is reckless and irresponsible now, is like closing the barn door after the horse got out.

I agree that he should enquire into the rabies vax status, but to each their own. There is a reason that OP is reluctant to approach this neighbor, he is not obligated to tell us. After all, his question is about the making of a service dog, not what he should do about this bite. 

IMO, I think the question now is what is OP going to do about this Pit Bull, and all the other Pit Bulls he states are illegally in this community? Does a child need to be mauled or killed? How about a German Shepherd puppy, would that be a viable sacrifice?

I understand your position as a father, and rightfully so. Most of us don't understand how the welfare of a child doesn't have top priority.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Deb said:


> I really wish they wouldn't publish this kind of information in newspapers as it really opens a door that shouldn't be opened. How many more will read this and decide they can do it, too.
> Under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the city is only allowed to ask if the dog has been trained as a service animal, and what kind of service it performs. Caruso said the city is not allowed to ask for documentation showing the dog's training or proof that the person registering a service animal is actually disabled.
> 
> 
> This has to be a hard reality for the OP, his child was bit and yet he feels behind the eight ball if he reports it. Now he has to live with the fear that what if the dog gets out again? His wife and kids could just be walking to their car and the dog could get out and attack again, maybe seriously hurting or maiming one of his children, they could be walking to the door from the school bus, going out for the mail, etc.. If his phone rings at work he has to be afraid it might be the call that says his child is on the way to the hospital. He now, because of his job and pension, he has to live in fear.


From some of the comments on this thread by people far more knowledgeable about service dogs than I am, it seems that is already is a huge problem, newspaper articles or not.


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am a little surprised reading back over this thread seeing commentors who normally would go into overkill at the slightest infraction of the law turn a blind eye to OP's neighbors owning a banned breed. These same people can't even find it to speak out about the dog being off leash and they surely would have had the breed been a non fighting breed puppy, or other normally innocuous breed, as has happened in the past.
> 
> It makes me wonder what is truly behind all the harassment members receive on other threads for such things as having well behaved dogs off leash or about other people not cleaning up dog poop when there are no receptacles and other minor, harmless infractions of the law.
> 
> Does one get to pick and choose what laws to follow? Is it a matter of convenience? Just what is it? Does it have something to do with the breed? Does owning specific breeds endow those owners with an automatic free pass to break the law without the usual outcry? Who makes that decision?
> 
> I have seen the finger pointed at OP, his introverted wife, his job and even the number of his pets, ... *a lot of victim blaming*, even blatantly stating his concerns over his job and pension seem crazy and improbable. Yet, nobody points the finger at the neighbor whose reckless and irresponsible actions has inflicted what has been deemed a dangerous animal by his community's law makers, with the support of his community, upon his family neighborhood resulting in a child being attacked.
> 
> OP's best option at this point, which also protects his family, pets, job and pension, would be to turn this law breaker in for owning a banned breed. He should let the authorities know that the Pit Bull is responsible for an unreported attack on a child. This can all be done anonymously and would be in OP's and the community's better interest.
> 
> OP, I am truly sorry what people have said to you on this thread and for the aspersions they have cast on your concerns. Your child has been attacked and bitten, you did not deserve to be treated so poorly.


I actually kind of get why he's not saying anything (assuming he's right about his job and pension being on the line), but I think what people are reacting to is the perceived failure by the OP to advocate for his child. I think that shocks people, to be honest.

We know the neighbors won't take precautions. They don't care. They should clean up after themselves (in a figurative sense), but they won't. Should OP have to? No, not in a perfect world. But will he have to if he wants to effectively protect his child? Likely. He has two bad choices to pick from. I can see why he chose the one he did. I still think it's a bad choice and I stand behind saying so. It just might be less bad than the alternative.

And on the number of pets thing: OP cited this as the reason why he was afraid to speak up. Okay. So maybe think about cutting back, or looking into a permit that would allow him to have extra animals. Something that helps him not have to fear relying on the system if he needs it. It's just logical. Again, I stand behind saying that.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> I actually kind of get why he's not saying anything (assuming he's right about his job and pension being on the line), but I think what people are reacting to is the perceived failure by the OP to advocate for his child. I think that shocks people, to be honest.
> 
> We know the neighbors won't take precautions. They don't care. They should clean up after themselves (in a figurative sense), but they won't. Should OP have to? No, not in a perfect world. But will he have to if he wants to effectively protect his child? Likely. He has two bad choices to pick from. I can see why he chose the one he did. I still think it's a bad choice and I stand behind saying so. It just might be less bad than the alternative.
> 
> And on the number of pets thing: OP cited this as the reason why he was afraid to speak up. Okay. So maybe think about cutting back, or looking into a permit that would allow him to have extra animals. Something that helps him not have to fear relying on the system if he needs it. It's just logical. Again, I stand behind saying that.


Some how I suspect that if OP had started a thread about his neighbor's Beagle running loose and not cleaning after it, there would have been so much more support for OP.


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Some how I suspect that if OP had started a thread about his neighbor's Beagle running loose and not cleaning after it, there would have been so much more support for OP.


I'd still think his options were just as bad, and I think people would be just as shocked that he didn't seem to be advocating more forcefully for his child.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> I'd still think his options were just as bad, and I think people would be just as shocked that he didn't seem to be advocating more forcefully for his child.


Yes, people are shocked that he did not advocate for his child, but people on here are also shocked at all the victim blaming and awful insinuations directed at OP.

We don't know his full story, and he came here not to tell it, but to ask about what goes in to making a service dog. He came looking for information and instead he got judged.


----------



## cloudpump

WateryTart said:


> I'd still think his options were just as bad, and I think people would be just as shocked that he didn't seem to be advocating more forcefully for his child.


But his question was about service dogs. Is it anyone's place to chastise anyone else? He has his reasoning.


----------



## WateryTart

cloudpump said:


> But his question was about service dogs. Is it anyone's place to chastise anyone else? He has his reasoning.


When I say "his options are just as bad" I mean that he's stuck between a rock and a hard place.


----------



## selzer

I'm with Watery Tart. Being neighborly is well and good, but you have a people-biting dog next door that children are in charge of, that bit your kid once already. Most of the pit bulls that have killed people have had previous incidents like what happened to your son. They have a lethal weapon over there with a mind of its own. It has targeted your son for some reason. 

I guess you can build a secure kennel and make your kid play in there when he is outside, or you can call the police and present the hospital bills to them and explain the situation, and get something done about it. 

There are service dogs and service dogs, and yes you can train your own. Heck, I have PTSD, lots of people do. If I say that my dog calms me down, I can probably get a doctor to say that a service dog is a good idea, and whoo hoo, I get to take my doggy everywhere. And, the thing is, no one can question it. Unless my dog acts up, and then they can ask me to leave. So yes, it is a system designed to be abused, but the alternative would be to demand proof of a medical need, and well, that too is kind of icky.

I don't do this for the same reason I don't take handicapped parking spots: I am grateful that I don't NEED a service dog, I don't want to ruin it for those who do. And, I have a twinge of, I don't know, negative feeling with the idea of taking something I am not entitled to. 

As dog lovers, yes, we would love to take our pooch everywhere with us. But think of what that means, really. Do you really want to take your dog with your to work and everywhere else, where half the population also has their dog with them? Sure, why not? Why not? Because 75% of dog owners haven't a clue how to properly train or manage their dogs. At least in the US it is like that. You got the elite dog owners on this site, just because they know their breed or mix and are looking for information, and a goodly number of us have trouble with basic obedience and house training. Can you imagine all these dogs everywhere you go. Sure, YOU wouldn't take a dog reactive or people aggressive dog to work with you, but what about your work-mate? Do they even know that their little Putsie is uncomfortable in the situation and being driven to bite? We can't seem to go by a few days without people presenting a horror story from the dog park or the pet store. Imagine this every day, every where you go. And where would that leave the people who truly rely on their dogs to function normally, trying to navigate, whatever, and someone's untrained, uncomfortable dog comes charging their dog. 

Ah well. Yes, the topic kind of burns me. Call the police, but not for pretending it is a service dog, but because it chewed on your kid.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> I'm with Watery Tart. Being neighborly is well and good, but you have a people-biting dog next door that children are in charge of, that bit your kid once already. Most of the pit bulls that have killed people have had previous incidents like what happened to your son. They have a lethal weapon over there with a mind of its own. It has targeted your son for some reason.
> 
> I guess you can build a secure kennel and make your kid play in there when he is outside, or you can call the police and present the hospital bills to them and explain the situation, and get something done about it.
> 
> There are service dogs and service dogs, and yes you can train your own. Heck, I have PTSD, lots of people do. If I say that my dog calms me down, I can probably get a doctor to say that a service dog is a good idea, and whoo hoo, I get to take my doggy everywhere. And, the thing is, no one can question it. Unless my dog acts up, and then they can ask me to leave. So yes, it is a system designed to be abused, but the alternative would be to demand proof of a medical need, and well, that too is kind of icky.
> 
> I don't do this for the same reason I don't take handicapped parking spots: I am grateful that I don't NEED a service dog, I don't want to ruin it for those who do. And, I have a twinge of, I don't know, negative feeling with the idea of taking something I am not entitled to.
> 
> As dog lovers, yes, we would love to take our pooch everywhere with us. But think of what that means, really. Do you really want to take your dog with your to work and everywhere else, where half the population also has their dog with them? Sure, why not? Why not? Because 75% of dog owners haven't a clue how to properly train or manage their dogs. At least in the US it is like that. You got the elite dog owners on this site, just because they know their breed or mix and are looking for information, and a goodly number of us have trouble with basic obedience and house training. Can you imagine all these dogs everywhere you go. Sure, YOU wouldn't take a dog reactive or people aggressive dog to work with you, but what about your work-mate? Do they even know that their little Putsie is uncomfortable in the situation and being driven to bite? We can't seem to go by a few days without people presenting a horror story from the dog park or the pet store. Imagine this every day, every where you go. And where would that leave the people who truly rely on their dogs to function normally, trying to navigate, whatever, and someone's untrained, uncomfortable dog comes charging their dog.
> 
> Ah well. Yes, the topic kind of burns me. Call the police, but not for pretending it is a service dog, but because it chewed on your kid.


But OP has a third option that would not jeopardize himself. The breed is illegal where he lives, turn it in along with its bite history.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> It appears that in order to circumvent a breed banning for a SD, exemption ordinances must be passed.
> 
> Pit bull service dog attacks three people in Yakima | Local | yakimaherald.com


If I am reading that article correctly, none of what they say that dog does qualifies as a legal task. It is an Emotional Support animal if anything. I remember when there was a whole hullaballoo about a family whose pit bull was taken away due to a breed ban. They said that it was their daughter's therapy dog. I made the assumption that if the family used the wrong terminology it was not a legit service dog. They had made a choice to move to a house in a breed ban area with the pit.


----------



## gsdsar

He told the story. Gave all the information. He opened himself up to judgement of that story. 

He would have gotten a different response if he had asked "SD should not be attacking people right?"


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I would guess by the way the OP talked about pit bulls he doesn't know how much danger his kid could be in either.


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> But OP has a third option that would not jeopardize himself. The breed is illegal where he lives, turn it in along with its bite history.


Actually, the OP had concerns that this WOULD jeopardize him. He was concerned that in retaliation, the neighbor would turn him in for having too many animals. Really, it DOESN'T matter if this is a pit bull or a Chinese Crested. The concern is the same: "If I report this bite and my neighbor doesn't like the results, could he try to get back at me by reporting my five animals when I can only have two?" (Five and two are made up numbers.)

*I get why he is not saying a word.* I also get why people are like, "Dude. What the heck, this dog bit your kid and could bite someone else! Yes I'm judging you right now!" People are understandably shocked that this kid was bitten and nothing is being done to remove the issue, and they are shocked at the OP for not advocating.


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am a little surprised reading back over this thread seeing commentors who normally would go into overkill at the slightest infraction of the law turn a blind eye to OP's neighbors owning a banned breed. These same people can't even find it to speak out about the dog being off leash and they surely would have had the breed been a non fighting breed puppy, or other normally innocuous breed, as has happened in the past.
> 
> It makes me wonder what is truly behind all the harassment members receive on other threads for such things as having well behaved dogs off leash or about other people not cleaning up dog poop when there are no receptacles and other minor, harmless infractions of the law.
> 
> Does one get to pick and choose what laws to follow? Is it a matter of convenience? Just what is it? Does it have something to do with the breed? Does owning specific breeds endow those owners with an automatic free pass to break the law without the usual outcry? Who makes that decision?
> 
> I have seen the finger pointed at OP, his introverted wife, his job and even the number of his pets, ... *a lot of victim blaming*, even blatantly stating his concerns over his job and pension seem crazy and improbable. Yet, nobody points the finger at the neighbor whose reckless and irresponsible actions has inflicted what has been deemed a dangerous animal by his community's law makers, with the support of his community, upon his family neighborhood resulting in a child being attacked.
> 
> OP's best option at this point, which also protects his family, pets, job and pension, would be to turn this law breaker in for owning a banned breed. He should let the authorities know that the Pit Bull is responsible for an unreported attack on a child. This can all be done anonymously and would be in OP's and the community's better interest.
> 
> OP, I am truly sorry what people have said to you on this thread and for the aspersions they have cast on your concerns. Your child has been attacked and bitten, you did not deserve to be treated so poorly.


I agree. There is a lot of finger pointing at anyone brave enough to post a controversial question. Why are we blaming the victim?


----------



## LuvShepherds

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If I am reading that article correctly, none of what they say that dog does qualifies as a legal task. It is an Emotional Support animal if anything. I remember when there was a whole hullaballoo about a family whose pit bull was taken away due to a breed ban. They said that it was their daughter's therapy dog. I made the assumption that if the family used the wrong terminology it was not a legit service dog. They had made a choice to move to a house in a breed ban area with the pit.


You are right it's not a service dog in the traditional definition.


----------



## LuvShepherds

WateryTart said:


> I actually kind of get why he's not saying anything (assuming he's right about his job and pension being on the line), but I think what people are reacting to is the perceived failure by the OP to advocate for his child. I think that shocks people, to be honest.
> 
> We know the neighbors won't take precautions. They don't care. They should clean up after themselves (in a figurative sense), but they won't. Should OP have to? No, not in a perfect world. But will he have to if he wants to effectively protect his child? Likely. He has two bad choices to pick from. I can see why he chose the one he did. I still think it's a bad choice and I stand behind saying so. It just might be less bad than the alternative.
> 
> And on the number of pets thing: OP cited this as the reason why he was afraid to speak up. Okay. So maybe think about cutting back, or looking into a permit that would allow him to have extra animals. Something that helps him not have to fear relying on the system if he needs it. It's just logical. Again, I stand behind saying that.


I read the first few pages then skipped to the new posts and walked into what looks like a pile on. Then we wonder why people don't come back or are afraid to post. I barely posted the first few years I was a member here because of that. Of course, we should all protect children, but I'm reading that there are reasons we may not even know for the OP's choices. I agree 100% with MAWL. Make an anonymous complaint. Our AC keeps complaints private if you ask. They may not pull a dog based on one but they will investigate. If the dog bit a neighbor chances are it won't be too friendly when an AC demands to see it at the door.


----------



## WateryTart

LuvShepherds said:


> I read the first few pages then skipped to the new posts and walked into what looks like a pile on. Then we wonder why people don't come back or are afraid to post. I barely posted the first few years I was a member here because of that. Of course, we should all protect children, but I'm reading that there are reasons we may not even know for the OP's choices. I agree 100% with MAWL. Make an anonymous complaint. Our AC keeps complaints private if you ask. They may not pull a dog based on one but they will investigate. If the dog bit a neighbor chances are it won't be too friendly when an AC demands to see it at the door.


Do we think it would actually be that private?

On paper it might be, but the neighbor might either surmise or assume it was OP, and OP could be right back where he's worried he'll be in terms of getting reported and losing his job and pension.

(STILL dying to know what job is in danger from having too many animals, but I will resign myself to not finding out.)

That's why I personally understand why he's keeping his mouth shut even though I get why it truly upsets other people and why I think it's a bad choice (while acknowledging it might be the better of his two bad options).


----------



## LuvShepherds

WateryTart said:


> Do we think it would actually be that private?
> 
> On paper it might be, but the neighbor might either surmise or assume it was OP, and OP could be right back where he's worried he'll be in terms of getting reported and losing his job and pension.
> 
> (STILL dying to know what job is in danger from having too many animals, but I will resign myself to not finding out.)
> 
> That's why I personally understand why he's keeping his mouth shut even though I get why it truly upsets other people and why I think it's a bad choice (while acknowledging it might be the better of his two bad options).


I would feel terrible if they moved and their dog bit someone else. It's not the OPs fault, it is the owners. Anyone who would let a dog bite a child amd keep the dog could be dangerous. I agree. But they removing soon. I must be tougher than others. I would at the very least get someone very intimidating to go with me and talk to them. Do the orients know the dog bit the child? Do they care?

I didnt have opinions about pit bulls but after reading one story after another, I dont want to be around them and have no respect for anyone who owns one, unless they know what they are doing.


----------



## ILGHAUS

I've not read the last couple of pages as I'm just getting on. Let me catch up and warnings to members will be given if they need to be.

In areas where there are breed bans such breeds are exempted if they are in fact a Service Dog.

A Service Dog -- doesn't matter the breed or type, a breed under a ban, or wears a pink tutu -- does not get a free pass to poop in a neighbor's yard, to pee in a store and most surely not attack someone. 

The victim in this case was a child. Children always need to be put first. If the skin was broken then care needed to be given. Then it is up to the adults be they parents or neighbors to step up and protect that child and any others in danger.

An attack by a dog needs to be dealt with at once. An aggressive dog needs to be contained so that it can not escape. Most areas have laws about this. Some areas have one bite and AC gets involved. 

So posters can go back and forth but legally it doesn't matter if the dog was a small ankle bitter or a Mastiff, a Service Dog or a trained military dog -- the dog was running free and attacked a child. 
Ethically, it does not matter breed, type or what the dog was trained or not trained for -- the dog was running free and attacked a child.

That part should not even be under discussion.


----------



## ILGHAUS

> I understand that a dog attack can happen in seconds just as this one did, and that the next time it could be fatal (for our kids or any of the other neighborhood children). We want to make this dog's owners aware, and make our other neighbors aware, because a lot of our neighbors have small children and sometimes they're allowed to wander the neighborhood unsupervised. With this possibly vicious dog under the guise of a service dog title being allowed to escape and roam the neighborhood, we worry for other children's lives now.



If someone has this much concern over a dog that is running loose then the dog needs to be reported to some authority at once so there is no way the dog can do so again. Just keeping the dog in the house did not succeed in keeping the dog contained. Again, the breed of the dog is not the point so that should be the least of anyone's concern.


----------



## ILGHAUS

> It appears that in order to circumvent a breed banning for a SD, exemption ordinances must be passed.



Local exemption ordinances do not have to be passed. Exemption was granted by the Department of Justice.

*Q22. Can service animals be any breed of dog?*
A: Yes. The ADA does not restrict the type of dog breeds that can be service animals.
_Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA
U.S. Department of Justice
Civil Rights Division
Disability Rights Section
July 20, 2015_



*Position on Breed Bans*
Breed limitations. A few commenters suggested that certain 
breeds of dogs should not be allowed to be used as service animals. 
Some suggested that the Department should defer to local laws 
restricting the breeds of dogs that individuals who reside in a 
community may own. Other commenters opposed breed restrictions, 
stating that the breed of a dog does not determine its propensity 
for aggression and that aggressive and non-aggressive dogs exist in 
all breeds.

The Department does not believe that it is either appropriate or 
consistent with the ADA to defer to local laws that prohibit certain 
breeds of dogs based on local concerns that these breeds may have a 
history of unprovoked aggression or attacks. Such deference would 
have the effect of limiting the rights of persons with disabilities 
under the ADA who use certain service animals based on where they 
live rather than on whether the use of a particular animal poses a 
direct threat to the health and safety of others. Breed restrictions 
differ significantly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Some 
jurisdictions have no breed restrictions. Others have restrictions 
that, while well-meaning, have the unintended effect of screening 
out the very breeds of dogs that have successfully served as service 
animals for decades without a history of the type of unprovoked 
aggression or attacks that would pose a direct threat, e.g., German 
Shepherds. Other jurisdictions prohibit animals over a certain 
weight, thereby restricting breeds without invoking an express breed 
ban. In addition, deference to breed restrictions contained in local 
laws would have the unacceptable consequence of restricting travel 
by an individual with a disability who uses a breed that is 
acceptable and poses no safety hazards in the individual's home 
jurisdiction but is nonetheless banned by other jurisdictions. 
Public accommodations have the ability to determine, on a case-by-
case basis, whether a particular service animal can be excluded 
based on that particular animal's actual behavior or history--not 
based on fears or generalizations about how an animal or breed might 
behave. This ability to exclude an animal whose behavior or history 
evidences a direct threat is sufficient to protect health and 
safety.
_[Federal Register: September 15, 2010 (Volume 75, Number 178)]
[Rules and Regulations] [Page 56236-56358]
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
28 CFR Part 36
[CRT Docket No. 106; AG Order No. 3181-2010]
RIN 1190-AA44_


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> Actually, the OP had concerns that this WOULD jeopardize him. He was concerned that in retaliation, the neighbor would turn him in for having too many animals. Really, it DOESN'T matter if this is a pit bull or a Chinese Crested. The concern is the same: "If I report this bite and my neighbor doesn't like the results, could he try to get back at me by reporting my five animals when I can only have two?" (Five and two are made up numbers.)
> 
> *I get why he is not saying a word.* I also get why people are like, "Dude. What the heck, this dog bit your kid and could bite someone else! Yes I'm judging you right now!" People are understandably shocked that this kid was bitten and nothing is being done to remove the issue, and they are shocked at the OP for not advocating.


No, this would be done anonymously and the neighbor would have no idea who did it. OP was concerned if he turned his neighbor in for a dog bite, which he would have to identify himself, then, he feared retaliation. So, no, the concern is by no means the same.

It absolutely matters whether it is a Pit Bull or a Chinese Crested. The Pit Bull is a banned breed where he lives, the Chinese Crested is not. Pits can, and do, maul and kill people and pets with regularity, Chinese Cresteds do not. Let's not be silly and ignore the law and the facts. I mean if the world is going to go to heck in a handbasket because a large breed puppy was running loose or somebody didn't pick up after their dog, because it is the law you know, then why should anybody turn a blind eye to breed under these extreme conditions?


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

ILGHAUS said:


> If someone has this much concern over a dog that is running loose then the dog needs to be reported to some authority at once so there is no way the dog can do so again. Just keeping the dog in the house did not succeed in keeping the dog contained. Again, the breed of the dog is not the point so that should be the least of anyone's concern.


With all due respect, how can breed not be the point when the breed is banned in that community? This incident is the very reason that any bannings or BSL are enacted, *to prevent the first attack *by the specific breed targeted with the law, and in this case, it is the Pit Bull.

And in this particular incident, this is OP's ticket to reporting anonymously. The same can't be said if the dog had been a Beagle. In this case, breed very much matters.


----------



## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> With all due respect, how can breed not be the point when the breed is banned in that community? This incident is the very reason that any bannings or BSL are enacted, *to prevent the first attack *by the specific breed targeted with the law, and in this case, it is the Pit Bull.
> 
> And in this particular incident, this is OP's ticket to reporting anonymously. The same can't be said if the dog had been a Beagle. In this case, breed very much matters.


You are right. It still bothers me we are after the OP for number of dogs and are giving out misleading information. Breed does matter. Posts on this site stay forever. The information posted should be accurate for the next person who finds this and needs answers. The dog is a banned breed, it didn't just happen to bite a child. The dog got loose and intentionally ran out and attacked a child. It could have been worse. We get all twisted up in minutiae when the only thing that matters is getting the injured child treated and stopping the dog from biting again or worse.

Everhing else is just background noise. The number of dogs, the fact that the families are moving, who is or is not to blame, whether the dog can be a service dog. It doesn't matter if it can or can't be a SD, it should not be allowed to get loose. Why are children responsible for a dangerous dog? Where were the parents?


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> No, this would be done anonymously and the neighbor would have no idea who did it. OP was concerned if he turned his neighbor in for a dog bite, which he would have to identify himself, then, he feared retaliation. So, no, the concern is by no means the same.
> 
> It absolutely matters whether it is a Pit Bull or a Chinese Crested. The Pit Bull is a banned breed where he lives, the Chinese Crested is not. Pits can, and do, maul and kill people and pets with regularity, Chinese Cresteds do not. Let's not be silly and ignore the law and the facts. I mean if the world is going to go to heck in a handbasket because a large breed puppy was running loose or somebody didn't pick up after their dog, because it is the law you know, then why should anybody turn a blind eye to breed under these extreme conditions?


Right, but as a prior poster pointed out, service dogs are exempted from breed bans.

Also, let's be realistic: I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that maybe the neighbor would have a pretty good guess about who turned him in. I don't think the neighbor would have to be all that bright to put two and two together if his dog bit somebody and then a week or two later he has AC showing up at his door. It isn't much to figure out that it was probably due to the bite incident and someone connected to said incident probably called it in.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> Right, but as a prior poster pointed out, service dogs are exempted from breed bans.
> 
> Also, let's be realistic: I don't think it's a huge stretch to think that maybe the neighbor would have a pretty good guess about who turned him in. I don't think the neighbor would have to be all that bright to put two and two together if his dog bit somebody and then a week or two later he has AC showing up at his door. It isn't much to figure out that it was probably due to the bite incident and someone connected to said incident probably called it in.


Claims of it being a service dog vs it actually being one are two entirely different things. OP should report it and let the authorities sort it out.

Why would you think that this neighbor would point the finger at OP? On what grounds? According to OP, 1) the neighbor does *NOT* know his Pit Bull bit a child and 2) OP has openly admitted to being a fan of Pit Bulls and would own one in a minute. Your statement, IMO, has no valid grounds.


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Claims of it being a service dog vs it actually being one are two entirely different things. OP should report it and let the authorities sort it out.
> 
> Why would you think that this neighbor would point the finger at OP? On what grounds? According to OP, 1) the neighbor does *NOT* know his Pit Bull bit a child and 2) OP has openly admitted to being a fan of Pit Bulls and would own one in a minute. Your statement, IMO, has no valid grounds.


What does the OP liking pits have to do with the price of tea in China? *scratches head*


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> What does the OP liking pits have to do with the price of tea in China? *scratches head*


You claim that OP's neighbor would point an accusatory finger at OP if he got into trouble for having a Pit in an area where Pits are banned. Why would a Pit Bull advocate turn in a Pit owner? On the other hand, it should be quite obvious that the most likely person to turn in a banned breed would be somebody that is NOT a fan. That really is rather simplistic.


----------



## WateryTart

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You claim that OP's neighbor would point an accusatory finger at OP if he got into trouble for having a Pit in an area where Pits are banned. Why would a Pit Bull advocate turn in a Pit owner? On the other hand, it should be quite obvious that the most likely person to turn in a banned breed would be somebody that is NOT a fan. That really is rather simplistic.


Oh, I see what you mean. Well, it is simplistic, but I'm not sure that's on me.

I admittedly made the assumption that perhaps since the child of the house tried to pull the dog back in, the neighbor might be aware now that there was an incident. True, the neighbor never came to apologize, but it's also possible (and I'm conjecturing here, yes) that they chose not to admit any responsibility in case the OP chose to make a complaint. 

Because I've assumed facts not in evidence, I will concede that it's possible that the neighbor wouldn't immediately suspect OP. However, let's not discount the possibility that if AC comes to the door, the kid says, "Oh yeah, Dad, Harvey went after Little Wulf last week...forgot to tell you about that." There's enough potential for the neighbor to have figured this out.

I'm still completely unsure of why liking the dog's breed matters. The dog bit the kid. Biting children means it's a dangerous specimen of [insert beloved breed here]. Someone can love a breed and still turn in a dangerous one.


----------



## Wulf

I'm still here and I'm still reading everyone's replies. I have been busy with work and life. I will answer as much as I can as soon as I have time.


I have thick skin. No one is going to chase me away. No worries there. And thank you for your concern, for both me and my son, and the other children around the neighborhood.


And I do know pit bulls. I know a lot about them. I mentioned that somewhere. We've been attacked many times, mostly by pits (but sometimes by mutts and other breeds). I've also taken care of a lot of them (the friendly ones who passed the tests for future adoption) at shelters. I understand that any dog can bite; some breeds can do more damage than others. I know about the lockjaw myth. I've wrestled (with my bare hands) off leash pit bulls away from my leashed dogs in the middle of full blown dog fights while on walks.


My son is fine. No need for a hospital visit at this time. We have dated pictures as proof, as the neighbor's children witnessed everything. I don't think they would lie to their parents if confronted about the details of how it all happened. We will be telling the parents, and warning our other neighbors. Time is of the essence, I understand. I am not worried about rabies with the pets around here.


And we're all in the military here, living in a "gated community" with our own security and everything. But because of that living situation, everything is related to everything else, so there are contracts between the privatized housing and the base leadership, so that's how this could affect my job, career and pension.


We have family rules in place that none of our children are allowed outside if the neighbors are home. Our backyard is fully fenced in and the gate has a padlock, so the kids can play there. If our children need to go out front for anything, my wife and/or I will go with them, and probably bring our GSD too, as an extra deterrent (backup! reinforcements!! the cavalry!!!).


I'll write more when I can. Thank you again.


Oh, and to the people who have PMd me, I don't have enough posts to be able to reply. That's rather silly, but I'll play the game...


----------



## WateryTart

Ohhhhh. Military. I guess that would make sense. I'm not in the military and don't know all the rules, but I do understand that there can be a lot of them. (Thanks, I was really curious!)


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> Oh, I see what you mean. Well, it is simplistic, but I'm not sure that's on me.
> 
> I admittedly made the assumption that perhaps since the child of the house tried to pull the dog back in, the neighbor might be aware now that there was an incident. True, the neighbor never came to apologize, but it's also possible (and I'm conjecturing here, yes) that they chose not to admit any responsibility in case the OP chose to make a complaint.
> 
> Because I've assumed facts not in evidence, I will concede that it's possible that the neighbor wouldn't immediately suspect OP. However, let's not discount the possibility that if AC comes to the door, the kid says, "Oh yeah, Dad, Harvey went after Little Wulf last week...forgot to tell you about that." There's enough potential for the neighbor to have figured this out.
> 
> I'm still completely unsure of why liking the dog's breed matters. The dog bit the kid. Biting children means it's a dangerous specimen of [insert beloved breed here]. Someone can love a breed and still turn in a dangerous one.


Perhaps somebody like me lives next door to OP's neighbor on the other side. If that were the case, rest assured that the neighbor would be casting a very suspicious eye in that neighbor's direction, especially if the neighbor knew that OP was a fan of the breed. That is why liking the breed would matter.

The dogs breed matters because it is a breed that is banned in that community. One of the major purposes of breed bans is to prevent the first bite from ever happening. This banning does not apply to Beagles or Chinese Cresteds in the community, but it does to Pit Bulls. Hence, breed matters. Define dangerous, a bandaid from a Chi bite or a toe tag from a Pit Bull mauling. Not all dangerous dogs are created equal.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

The dog being a service dog matters a lot in my opinion. SDs have way more contact and closer contact with the general public than pet dogs. That is why they are held to such high standards.

I can't tell you how many children have run headlong toward my dog yelling "doggie!" In the grocery store or wherever (parents are generally unconcerned or don't even notice). One child I actually physically intercepted right before she grabbed the dog. One bounced a balloon off of her head behind my back (I turned just in time to see it but not in time to stop it)

What might a dog like this do under those circumstances? The owner, the authorities, and the SD organization need to be made aware of the bite and if the owners or org continue to work the dog I would call the local news next.


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## Wulf

Wulf said:


> We have dated pictures as proof, as the neighbor's children witnessed everything.


 
That was supposed to read "AND the neighbor's children..."


I ran out of my 10 minutes editing time, and it doesn't make as much sense with AS. Sorry.


----------



## Wulf

On a side note, Dobermans were one of the first military working dogs, and they are also a banned breed on (as far as I know) ALL military bases today. Sad but true. We have people on base with chickens and all sorts of banned animals. The common rule is "if your neighbors don't have an issue with it, then no one else needs to know." I don't have an issue with pit bulls. I do have an issue with irresponsible dog owners who don't properly control their dogs (or children in this case [for letting the dog out not once but twice]). That's really the bottom line. I've found dog poop in my front yard and I know it's this same neighbor and his "service dog" and "service dogs-in-training" that he fosters. I've been in my front yard and one of his dogs was facing off with me, growling at me, and he recalled his dog and it ran back to him. He didn't seem to care that his dog was growling at me on my property while I was on my own property. But he recalled his dog and scolded it. He should be the one getting scolded. But my hands are tied, as he knows how many pets we have and could easily report me if we don't remain on good terms as neighbors. I just want to be on neutral terms. I don't even really talk to him or wave to him when I see him. I pretend like I don't see him, as if I'm busy doing something that helps me avoid contact with him. It's not rude, but it helps avoid conflict. I'm just trying to hang in there until he moves, and trying to stay off the radar until I can get my official retirement and get off this base and buy land and own my own house where I can legally have these pets.


----------



## Deb

Sadly, yes, Dobermans are banned on all military posts. People with them usually just live off Post.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I am not sure what Dobermanns have to do with any of this.


----------



## Wulf

I was in the middle of editing my last reply, but again ran out of time. I wanted it to look like this:




> On a side note, Dobermans were one of the first military working dogs, and they are also a banned breed on (as far as I know) ALL military bases today. Sad but true.
> 
> 
> We have people on base with chickens and all sorts of banned animals/breeds. The common rule is "if your neighbors don't have an issue with it, then no one else needs to know." I don't have an issue with pit bulls. I *DO* have an issue with irresponsible dog owners who don't properly control their dogs (or children in this case [for letting the dog out not once but twice]). That's really the bottom line.
> 
> 
> I've found dog poop in my front yard and I know it's this same neighbor and his running-amok "service dog" and "service dogs-in-training" that he fosters. Whenever he is out in his garage or front yard, he has this pit bull (and sometimes the other dogs too) running loose. I'll be in my house and hear him screaming for his dogs, which means he allowed them to wander off, and then gets mad at them for doing so. I've been in my front yard and one of his dogs was facing off with me, growling at me, and he recalled his dog and it ran back to him. He didn't seem to care that his dog was growling at me while I was on my own property. But he recalled his dog and scolded it. He should be the one getting scolded.
> 
> 
> But my hands are tied, as he knows how many pets we have and could easily report me if we don't remain on good terms as neighbors. I just want to be on neutral terms. I don't even really talk to him or wave to him when I see him. I pretend like I don't see him, as if I'm busy doing something that helps me avoid contact with him. It's not rude, but it helps avoid conflict. I'm just trying to hang in there until he moves, and trying to stay off the radar until I can get my official retirement and get off this base and buy land and own my own house where I can legally have these pets.


----------



## Wulf

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not sure what Dobermanns have to do with any of this.



I just like Dobermans and since we were talking about the military and banned breeds, I was trying to make a connection and lighten the mood I guess.


----------



## gsdsar

Wulf, thanks for sticking it out. 

I wish you the best and am glad that you are going to talk to the neighbor and have a plan in place to keep your children safe in the future. 

Thank you for your service and congrats on your retirement.


----------



## ILGHAUS

I hope your children and the other children in the area remain safe. Also that whichever base your neighbor goes to in the future that they do not have a problem with their dog.


----------



## LuvShepherds

Wulf said:


> On a side note, Dobermans were one of the first military working dogs, and they are also a banned breed on (as far as I know) ALL military bases today. Sad but true. We have people on base with chickens and all sorts of banned animals. The common rule is "if your neighbors don't have an issue with it, then no one else needs to know." I don't have an issue with pit bulls. I do have an issue with irresponsible dog owners who don't properly control their dogs (or children in this case [for letting the dog out not once but twice]). That's really the bottom line. I've found dog poop in my front yard and I know it's this same neighbor and his "service dog" and "service dogs-in-training" that he fosters. I've been in my front yard and one of his dogs was facing off with me, growling at me, and he recalled his dog and it ran back to him. He didn't seem to care that his dog was growling at me on my property while I was on my own property. But he recalled his dog and scolded it. He should be the one getting scolded. But my hands are tied, as he knows how many pets we have and could easily report me if we don't remain on good terms as neighbors. I just want to be on neutral terms. I don't even really talk to him or wave to him when I see him. I pretend like I don't see him, as if I'm busy doing something that helps me avoid contact with him. It's not rude, but it helps avoid conflict. I'm just trying to hang in there until he moves, and trying to stay off the radar until I can get my official retirement and get off this base and buy land and own my own house where I can legally have these pets.


You would have received more useful help right away if you had explained the details in your first post. That dog is not a service dog. They must pass certification to become an official service dog. One test is temperament. My friend trains them and has had dogs released from the program for even a slight behavior quirk. A dog that bites would be put down. There are groups that claim to train PTSD dogs they find in shelters, usually seem type of pit mix. I saw a TV show about them. That dog is dangerous. You have made a decision, but in answer to your first question, it is not a service dog.


----------



## gsdsar

LuvShepherds said:


> Wulf said:
> 
> 
> 
> On a side note, Dobermans were one of the first military working dogs, and they are also a banned breed on (as far as I know) ALL military bases today. Sad but true. We have people on base with chickens and all sorts of banned animals. The common rule is "if your neighbors don't have an issue with it, then no one else needs to know." I don't have an issue with pit bulls. I do have an issue with irresponsible dog owners who don't properly control their dogs (or children in this case [for letting the dog out not once but twice]). That's really the bottom line. I've found dog poop in my front yard and I know it's this same neighbor and his "service dog" and "service dogs-in-training" that he fosters. I've been in my front yard and one of his dogs was facing off with me, growling at me, and he recalled his dog and it ran back to him. He didn't seem to care that his dog was growling at me on my property while I was on my own property. But he recalled his dog and scolded it. He should be the one getting scolded. But my hands are tied, as he knows how many pets we have and could easily report me if we don't remain on good terms as neighbors. I just want to be on neutral terms. I don't even really talk to him or wave to him when I see him. I pretend like I don't see him, as if I'm busy doing something that helps me avoid contact with him. It's not rude, but it helps avoid conflict. I'm just trying to hang in there until he moves, and trying to stay off the radar until I can get my official retirement and get off this base and buy land and own my own house where I can legally have these pets.
> 
> 
> 
> You would have received more useful help right away if you had explained the details in your first post. That dog is not a service dog. They must pass certification to become an official service dog. One test is temperament. My friend trains them and has had dogs released from the program for even a slight behavior quirk. A dog that bites would be put down. There are groups that claim to train PTSD dogs they find in shelters, usually seem type of pit mix. I saw a TV show about them. That dog is dangerous. You have made a decision, but in answer to your first question, it is not a service dog.
Click to expand...


Just to clarify. There is NO test a dog must pass to be a service dog. There is NO standard.


----------



## LuvShepherds

gsdsar said:


> Just to clarify. There is NO test a dog must pass to be a service dog. There is NO standard.


Reputable groups set their own standards. Here is one. They would never use a pit bull or use a dog that bites.

Home - Canine Companions for Independence

From their website


Team Training - After the puppy raiser returns the dog to Canine Companions at approximately 14-16 months of age, the dog attends a six-nine month training course with professional instructors at a Regional Training Center. The first two weeks, dogs are screened, undergoing x-rays and medical tests as well as tests to evaluate their temperaments. Some dogs are released at this point due to medical or temperament problems. The others continue into training.


----------



## LuvShepherds

gsdsar said:


> Just to clarify. There is NO test a dog must pass to be a service dog. There is NO standard.


Here is a list of Service Dog trainers. They must all have some means of eliminating dangerous dogs from their programs.

Listing of Service Dog Training Organizations | DogCapes.com


----------



## Pan_GSD

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am not sure what Dobermanns have to do with any of this.


spent a while reading the WHOLE thread with a serious look and came across this post and it make me chuckle


----------



## Jax08

Pan_GSD said:


> spent a while reading the WHOLE thread with a serious look and came across this post and it make me chuckle



sometimeso this irony is worth reading the whole thread.:wink2:


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

gsdsar said:


> Just to clarify. There is NO test a dog must pass to be a service dog. There is NO standard.


There is a legal definition of what constitutes a service dog....


----------



## gsdsar

Thecowboysgirl said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just to clarify. There is NO test a dog must pass to be a service dog. There is NO standard.
> 
> 
> 
> There is a legal definition of what constitutes a service dog....
Click to expand...

Yes, but no test. There is no standardization test that all service dogs must pass. That's the point I was making. 

Some trainers are more proactive in washing dogs that are not good for the job. But that's their choice. Many device dogs are handler trained and thru do NOT have to pass a test or prove to any certifying authority that they meet any standards.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Most reputable service dog trainers and organizations do agree on a basic standard of conduct that a SD should adhere to. 

I think the part that is important about the legal definition is that the dog is individually task trained. I wouldn't be surprised if the dog in this case is not....if you asked the guy what are the dog's tasks you might get an answer similar to how they described the PTSD dog in that article, an ESA

I think there may be changes on the horizin due to the influx of poorly trained, un trained, and unsuitable dogs out there with SD patches.

Being partnered with a SD, I think those of us whk are should take matters into our own hands somehow and come ul with a solution that doesn't make life worse for us


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Most reputable service dog trainers and organizations do agree on a basic standard of conduct that a SD should adhere to.
> 
> I think the part that is important about the legal definition is that the dog is individually task trained. I wouldn't be surprised if the dog in this case is not....if you asked the guy what are the dog's tasks you might get an answer similar to how they described the PTSD dog in that article, an ESA
> 
> I think there may be changes on the horizin due to the influx of poorly trained, un trained, and unsuitable dogs out there with SD patches.
> 
> Being partnered with a SD, I think those of us whk are should take matters into our own hands somehow and come ul with a solution that doesn't make life worse for us


There is something wrong when there are many documented cases of SDs attacking people and pets as the one next door to OP and the one in the article referenced. How can the government force people to interact with them when they have not set any standards leaving the door wide open for fake, and often aggressive or unstable, SDs?


----------



## Deb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is something wrong when there are many documented cases of SDs attacking people and pets as the one next door to OP and the one in the article referenced. How can the government force people to interact with them when they have not set any standards leaving the door wide open for fake, and often aggressive or unstable, SDs?



My son and I were discussing this the other day. He's been researching it. He told me several congressmen and senators have tried to pass legislation on service dogs but basically have been stopped due to the funding it would cost to set it up. I'm afraid until several tragic things happen the government isn't going to be willing to spend the money needed. They'll have to be forced into it.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Deb said:


> My son and I were discussing this the other day. He's been researching it. He told me several congressmen and senators have tried to pass legislation on service dogs but basically have been stopped due to the funding it would cost to set it up. I'm afraid until several tragic things happen the government isn't going to be willing to spend the money needed. They'll have to be forced into it.


But several tragic events have happened, like in the article I referenced. I can list dozens of well documented serious attacks by SDs.


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## Thecowboysgirl

What I hear the most and have personally seen the most isn't fake SDs attacking people, nothing so dramatic. Usually it is just bad manners. I have told the story before of sharing a plane with a bichon in a service vest that repeatedly barked and lunged at my GSD while we were preparing to board, and it barked on and off the whole flight. I would be money it was a pet that they didn't want to pay the fee and this way it could sit in their lap. My dog shouldn't have been subjected to that and I asked the airline to do something about it but they were too afraid to say anything to the person with the dog. I told them they could legally exclude it because it was out of control but they didn't. If my GSD had been barking ad lunging at anything they probably would have....but I do understand nobody is really scared of a bichon nor can it do the damage a big dog can.

At any rate...I agree, nothing will change until something tragic happens. That is why I wish the SD handlers themselves would propose legislation or something in order to help the problem. I have said before, I would rather go to extra effort to certify or prove my dog's legitimacy than share space with fakers....but that is just me.


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## Deb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> But several tragic events have happened, like in the article I referenced. I can list dozens of well documented serious attacks by SDs.



Sadly I think it will take a death before something is done. It will take public outrage to make the government do something.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There is something wrong when there are many documented cases of SDs attacking people and pets as the one next door to OP and the one in the article referenced. How can the government force people to interact with them when they have not set any standards leaving the door wide open for fake, and often aggressive or unstable, SDs?


Good intentions, bad idea. Laws are made by bureaucrats. They won't know much about SDs, so they will get advisors. They are more likely to know animal rights advocates than SD trainers. So, then you have laws written and created by people with agendas for diverse groups with different purposes. Then they will want to pay for it, so the natural sources are the people the legislation is for, SD trainers, groups and recipients. They will put fees on dogs, making them out of reach for groups. The smaller groups will go under. The better funded groups will train fewer dogs. The people getting those dogs will suffer. The bad groups will ignore the laws and continue providing SDs under the radar, which is probably where the biting dog came from. 

The other bad effect will be poorly trained dogs. The laws will lower standards for the better organizations, putting downward pressure on them to cut costs and lower standards. Why ruin a good thing to try to bring the lowest level of standard up to passing levels?


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> Good intentions, bad idea. Laws are made by bureaucrats. They won't know much about SDs, so they will get advisors. They are more likely to know animal rights advocates than SD trainers. So, then you have laws written and created by people with agendas for diverse groups with different purposes. Then they will want to pay for it, so the natural sources are the people the legislation is for, SD trainers, groups and recipients. They will put fees on dogs, making them out of reach for groups. The smaller groups will go under. The better funded groups will train fewer dogs. The people getting those dogs will suffer. The bad groups will ignore the laws and continue providing SDs under the radar, which is probably where the biting dog came from.
> 
> The other bad effect will be poorly trained dogs. The laws will lower standards for the better organizations, putting downward pressure on them to cut costs and lower standards. Why ruin a good thing to try to bring the lowest level of standard up to passing levels?


Seriously, most of the people I know with SDs, got a puppy, had the knowledge of a slug, trained their own dog, and use the dog for a SD regardless of the adult temperament and capability. More or less, they bought this square peg as a puppy and they are going to force it into this round hole no matter the cost.


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## selzer

I think it matters what the breed is. If my kid was bitten by a Chinese Crested, I might read the neighbor the riot act, and wash my kid's hands and put a bandaid on him. If the kid was bitten by a pit bull, regardless of the severity, there is great potential in such a dog to do significant damage. I would file a report. 

Sorry if that makes me the equivalent of racist when it comes to dog breeds, but children do come first, and yes, I would be neighborly if it was a tiny dog, and try to get the dude to get his dog under control before going on with filing reports with authorities. But people who own GSDs, Rotties, Pitts, Cane Corsos, Dobermans, and a bunch of other breed, we cannot expect any leniency. We NEED to have our dogs under control.


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## ILGHAUS

Really for those responding back to where I said it did not matter the breed ... please take it in the context it was made in. I am not so dense as to go around saying that a toy poodle is as much of a concern as a Great Dane, a German Shepherd or a Pit that is running loose in a neighborhood. Several times I said it did not matter as to breed if a dog is a danger to a child it is a danger -- period. 

From the very beginning there seems to be a doubt by the OP that the neighbor's dog was in truth a SD. The title of the thread was: *Our 5-year old son was attacked by our neighbor's supposed "service dog”!?!? * which included the word supposed. 

So has the concerns of the OP been answered? The dog in question was not acting in the manner of a lawful SD per the requirements of The Department of Justice, HUD or The Department of Defense. The OP later informed us that the neighborhood in which he resided was on base housing. This negates the exemption of SDs where there is a breed ban. The Base Commander has the final say on which breeds can not be used on his base as a SD. 

The OP also was concerned on how to proceed and later was satisfied that they would speak to the neighbor about the dog running loose and that they would let the problem just ride as those neighbors would soon be moving away. 

So does anyone else have a question on SD law? If so it may be best to begin a new thread as this thread, while it could have progressed in several directions, now it seems to be going around and around in a loop.


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## Chip18

Deb said:


> Sadly, yes, Dobermans are banned on all military posts. People with them usually just live off Post.


Huh ...interestingly enough I'm a Navy Brat and we grew up in military housing. The first dog fight I broke up as a kid was between a GSD and a Doberman. One owner was going to get a gun! I don't recall what the other guys was doing ... I ran and grabbed a hose and broke them apart by spraying them with water ... worked out fine that was in Tenn.

Military housing Dobie incident number two ... Ca. I was running across the field in the back of our house. I hear some guy yell stop!! I stop and look forward and a young Dobbie is charging right at me. I remember the dog getting about 8 feet away he stopped, spread his front legs out and flat disappeared??? Next thing I know I get nipped in the back of the leg??? 

The guy got the dog under control, I told him I was fine. I never bothered to tell my parents. But I still remember it forty years later ... that dog was fast! 

Oh ...my point ... "when" did "Dobbies" get banned from military housing and why??


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## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What I hear the most and have personally seen the most isn't fake SDs attacking people, nothing so dramatic. Usually it is just bad manners. I have told the story before of sharing a plane with a bichon in a service vest that repeatedly barked and lunged at my GSD while we were preparing to board, and it barked on and off the whole flight. I would be money it was a pet that they didn't want to pay the fee and this way it could sit in their lap. My dog shouldn't have been subjected to that and I asked the airline to do something about it but they were too afraid to say anything to the person with the dog. I told them they could legally exclude it because it was out of control but they didn't. If my GSD had been barking ad lunging at anything they probably would have....but I do understand nobody is really scared of a bichon nor can it do the damage a big dog can.
> 
> At any rate...I agree, nothing will change until something tragic happens. That is why I wish the SD handlers themselves would propose legislation or something in order to help the problem. I have said before, I would rather go to extra effort to certify or prove my dog's legitimacy than share space with fakers....but that is just me.


No it's not just you. The people that do the "fake service dog" thing have the same sense of entitlement that able bodied "tools" that park in Handicapped spots do. 

I am fortunate in that I have no need of them (handicap spots) but people that do park in them and don't need them ...kinda ticks me off! 

And most likely the dog(S) in question are most certainly not "real service dogs!" If they are then the standards are pretty freaking low. Or I don't know maybe my standards are to high??? None of my dogs would behave like any of these fake "Service Dogs" in question.


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## ILGHAUS

I think this topic has been drug around enough. So before it turns into a pure breed bashing fest or the law should be .... for those in the U.S. we do have a process to change laws and I have posted several times in this forum when Federal and some state laws were coming up for changes ... I really think it is time to put this thread to rest.


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