# K9 Police dog?



## Ron Short

I was surprised today when walking my GSD past a "trained" Police K9...

My boy was well mannered and ignored the K9 pretty well but the K9 went ballistic!

Is this normal for a working dog??


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## gagsd

Is the dog certified?
Who trained/certified him?
Is he totally trained or in training?
Was he "in drive?"
How close were you?


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## JackB.

I have had the same thing happen to me and Jack when we were in the hardware store. Only difference was that it was a service dog in the store with a man in a wheelchair. It hunched down and began walking towards us with its head low, staring us down! Scared me, Jack barked, so we scurried away quickly. I was shocked that a service dog would act that way!


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## e.rigby

Heh, I remember going to the local big box petstore one day and there was an officer with his dog. He let him out of the car offleash to go potty and then the dog got back in and he drove off! He didn't even pick up after the dog  That's really been my only experience with a police dog. 

However, I've seen tons of ill behaved "Service dogs" ... perhaps they choose to act out while at pet stores, but I saw one wearing a vest accompanying a lady in a wheel chair pee on an aisle :/ I didn't have a dog with me so I offered to help her clean it up (since she wasn't going to be able to) but seriously? I've also seen service dogs growl at other dogs while working (even though the other dogs were not close to the SD).


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## Germanshepherdlova

There is a Police K9 that lives on the block over from me. I was walking my dog past his house and he was loose in the front yard and he came charging at my dog! He scared the crap out of me, and I began pulling my dog into the street in an effort to get away from him. At the last second the officers wife saw him running toward us and called him….he turned right back around and went home.


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## ILGHAUS

> Only difference was that it was a service dog in the store with a man in a wheelchair.





> However, I've seen tons of ill behaved "Service dogs" ... perhaps they choose to act out while at pet stores, but I saw one wearing a vest accompanying a lady in a wheel chair pee on an aisle :/


Just because a PWD has a dog with them does not mean that the dog is a SD. People with disabilities also have pet dogs and since these were locations that allowed pets chances are very good that is just what they were, pets with a lack of training. 

And if they were wearing a vest or other ID that stated SD that doesn't mean anything. People with or without a disability purchase vests online to drag their pets around claiming they are Service Dogs.


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## e.rigby

ILGHAUS said:


> Just because a PWD has a dog with them does not mean that the dog is a SD. People with disabilities also have pet dogs and since these were locations that allowed pets chances are very good that is just what they were, pets with a lack of training.
> 
> And if they were wearing a vest or other ID that stated SD that doesn't mean anything. People with or without a disability purchase vests online to drag their pets around claiming they are Service Dogs.


Every dog I've referred to as a SD had a vest stating it was a SD. Also, you're right, not every dog wearing such a vest is a legitimate service dog; however, one must assume unless told otherwise.


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## DFrost

Ron Short said:


> I was surprised today when walking my GSD past a "trained" Police K9...
> 
> My boy was well mannered and ignored the K9 pretty well but the K9 went ballistic!
> 
> Is this normal for a working dog??


Where was the "trained" police K9? In his kennel, yard, police car? Not all police canine, are dog friendly. Was the handler there? It's not uncommon for a police dog (or many dogs for that matter) to be territorial. Just because a dog goes "ballistic" doesn't mean it isn't trained.

DFrost


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## Mrs.K

DFrost said:


> Where was the "trained" police K9? In his kennel, yard, police car? Not all police canine, are dog friendly. Was the handler there? It's not uncommon for a police dog (or many dogs for that matter) to be territorial. Just because a dog goes "ballistic" doesn't mean it isn't trained.
> 
> DFrost


Exactly. Especially GSD's are territorial


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## GSDGunner

My next door neighbors GSD police dog (now retired) is dog aggressive. Bosco loves people whether little or big. Nothing fazes him, except other dogs.
He came from Czechoslovakia at about 2 years old. He was a decorated officer and never acted on his aggression towards any other police dog.
He was trained enough and his handler/owner knew how to handle him.

He's an outside dog (he refused to live in the house) with a huge kennel and dog house. They have three kids and they wanted to get another dog. They adopted a 5 month old Jack Russell mix last year. With intense training, Bosco and Shamrock are best friends now. He absolutely loves Shamrock. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?


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## Ron Short

The dog and his handler were standing on the sidewalk outside a coffee shop. The Officer (human) was taking a coffee break and I went to the other side of the street to give distance to the K9.... 

The dog pulled hard enough that the Officer dropped his coffee and then looked at me like it was my fault. 

BTW... This is a known officer/k9 to me and is certainly not in training. He has been in service for several years in my town...


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## DFrost

First, how do you know what the handler "meant" with his look. At any rate, the dog didn't bite you or your dog and you had the joy of watching him spill his coffee. In truth, mine has made me dump coffee, a Big Mac, soft drink, a hot dog, a breakfast taco, I think you get the drift. I always got mad at the dog (when in reality it was my fault for not being observant) when he did that. I think the dog may have taken some joy in it now that I think about it. Since you know the officer, does this happen all the time. How many people has he bitten by accident because of this behavior. How many dogs has he been in a fight with. How many cups of coffee has he made the handler drop over the past "several" years? 

DFrost


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## Ron Short

What I meant DFrost is that the Officer gave me a dirty look, that is all... 

I do not know the Officer personally just know of the pair in the area and don't know of any problems from the dog.

I was just surprised to see a trained dog like that react so strongly to stimulus at that range and at that intensity.


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## cliffson1

Hey Police dogs are human too. He was on leash and I have no doubt that if the officer had told the dog to down right there the dog would comply and the whole thing would be mute. Once the coffee went....welll lol. I wouldn't read anything into the dogs training from what you posted.


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## ladylaw203

Yep. they are not robots. If someone locks eye contact with one,which civilians routinely do, the dog may well cook off on you


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## Liesje

A trained dog is only as good as the commands he is given. I do not have K9s but I train my dogs in a variety of venues and my friends and family are often surprised at how much they are just like anyone else's pet dog around the house. I do not expect them to be executing commands and behaviors 24/7. As long as they do what I say WHEN I say so, that is fine with me. The rest of the time they are free to just be dogs. Because we do so much training and some of it is very challenging, there are other areas that aren't necessarily a priority for me. For example my dogs might jump with their paws up when people come over and they are happy and excited. They will counter surf if I leave food out.

Also there is context of the K9 working. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the ones I've seen tend to get more excited when they know they are on duty, which probably makes them more likely to react. My own dogs spend a lot of time in the vehicle in their kennels. At home or on vacation they are silent. People and other dogs can walk past and even touch the kennels and they don't stand up or make a peep. However, say we are at SchH training. They are more aroused in general because of the context. If a dog tries to jump in my van and sniff their kennel door or if one of the helpers walks directly past, you bet they are going to bark and go crazy for a minute.


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## msvette2u

I'd assume they are trained for duty - either searches and take-downs or drugs, either way, they aren't probably trained to be "good" with other dogs, their main job is police work, not making nice with the general public...


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## VonKromeHaus

Liesje said:


> A trained dog is only as good as the commands he is given. I do not have K9s but I train my dogs in a variety of venues and my friends and family are often surprised at how much they are just like anyone else's pet dog around the house. I do not expect them to be executing commands and behaviors 24/7. As long as they do what I say WHEN I say so, that is fine with me. The rest of the time they are free to just be dogs. Because we do so much training and some of it is very challenging, there are other areas that aren't necessarily a priority for me. For example my dogs might jump with their paws up when people come over and they are happy and excited. They will counter surf if I leave food out.
> 
> Also there is context of the K9 working. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but the ones I've seen tend to get more excited when they know they are on duty, which probably makes them more likely to react. My own dogs spend a lot of time in the vehicle in their kennels. At home or on vacation they are silent. People and other dogs can walk past and even touch the kennels and they don't stand up or make a peep. However, say we are at SchH training. They are more aroused in general because of the context. If a dog tries to jump in my van and sniff their kennel door or if one of the helpers walks directly past, you bet they are going to bark and go crazy for a minute.


Excellent Post! 

Judge is VERY well behaved in public and tolerates a lot, however, he doesn't appreciate a dog running up in his face and will unload on one if that happens. It's my job to be aware and make sure it doesn't happen. 

A dog is a dog is a dog no matter what their job is...they're all still dogs.


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## deacon

Unsure. My partner could care less about other animals of any kind. my cat paws him in the face and he walks away from his meal or toy. he tracks ignoring other animals almost daily. 
Now humans on the other hand he does not care for. Unlike when he was in training all his threats, injuries have come from them, hence he cares little for humans!!


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## Lyz

In my experience, I find that most Police K9, Military Working Dogs, and high-caliber working dogs will tend to experience bouts of aggression. Most people (commercial trainers and handlers, as well as pet owners) don't understand the concept of "too much of a good thing" and get super high drive dogs with no off button, thus the situation you probably saw. Very very very common. 

Too much drive and you lose control and balance. Too little and it's not a police dog. It's a tough set of skills to balance. Most of the police dogs I work with are *mod edit* retarded off duty. They tear through walls, I had one rip the steering wheel out of my car, kill small animals (cats, chickens, goats, etc.) you get the idea. Channel all that insane energy into a job, and you have an intense dog. Do nothing, and you have chaos.

You have a few good ones out there that are exceptionally balanced in all areas - great family dogs, great working dogs. But they're few and far between, and with so many units switching over to notoriously high drive Malinois ("Maligators") you'll probably see it more and more often.

But I've been lunged at by many police dogs - I travel with my GSD - so it's always amusing when I have bomb dogs lunging at me at the airport. This is where we insert the moment where I explain that I don't actually have a bomb and try to look as innocent as possibly while sporting my "don't taze me bro!" face. Grin.


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## ladylaw203

Well, I think I accidently deleted the whole third page while trying to do something with my own post. sigh. note to self,do not do things without your glasses..............


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## DFrost

ha ha, I hate it when that happens. 

DFrost


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## DFrost

Lyz said:


> In my experience, I find that most Police K9, Military Working Dogs, and high-caliber working dogs will tend to experience bouts of aggression. .


First a mod note. We don't disguise profanity such as you did. Please don't do that again. 

As a police officer, canine handler and police canine trainer, I wonder how much experience you have with PSD's. Your experiences do not reflect mine. I select nothing but high drive dogs. They only have "bouts of aggression" only when the handler tells them it's ok to do so. When bored they can be a bit of nuisance, agreed. Many however find their way into the household and become just another member of the family, while maintaining their ability to work. I don't intend my dogs to be the type that people walk up and routinely pet just because they are there, however for the most part, they probably could. Dogs lunging and out of control are poorly trained, poorly assigned and are not representive of the majority of well-trained police dogs being utilized across the country. 

dFrost


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## cliffson1

@ Lyz.....As a police k9 consultant who sees hundreds of police dogs, and a former militarypolice dog trainer and handler, Your basic assessment of police dogs is NOT my experience in general. I know a few police dogs like you describe, but I know 5x that many that live in family successful when off duty and when not on duty is very approachable. As matter of fact I went to train with the police yesterday and we couldn't start using the field until all the 2nd and 3rd graders bought to the training field by the school had an opportunity to PET all four of that municipalties dogs. This is common practice in NJ for the officers to bring the dogs to schools or schools to the dogs and familarize the kids with the dogs. What you write sounds good to the uninformed, and may be your experiences, but my experiences are over a region of 4 states that have many many police dogs. Don't see what you see in very very very many cases.JMO based on large numbers.


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## Castlemaid

My experience is very limited to the RCMP dogs I see at training, and my experience if the same as Cliff's and David's. Dogs with many a live bite to their name, calm, social, under control. No inappropriate aggression. I have no more concerns having them around than I do with my own dogs. 

Not saying that there are not working dogs out there that would act the way described with bouts of inappropriate aggression, but one can't make such a blanket statement without more involved personal experience.


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## carmspack

I don't know in what capacity or work experience you "deal" with police dogs ? If you had one rip the steering wheel out of your car then you had a management problem . Why was that dog not contained. 

Lunging bomb dogs at the airport --- I would think a detail explosives dog wouldn't give a flying fig about you , and even if you had an explosive device up the old wazzooo the dog wouldn't indicate by lunging . 
I've had bomb dogs at Houston , Washington DC , OPP (lots of positive press coverage - was the dog used for PopeJohn Paul's first North American Tour 1984, and finishing his career with protecting US President visiting for the 1988 Toronto G 8 Summit. Currently have one working for Metro Toronto. 
They were all social , sane , safe animals that never failed to work with energy and accuracy.

A good service dog should be able to work in any situation. 

I will never present a dog that is not balanced . Even the two that went to Michigan earlier this year as SWAT dogs . 
So I am on the same page as the people that have responded , D Frost , Cliff , Castlemaid , ....

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Catu

Lyz said:


> In my experience, I find that most Police K9, Military Working Dogs, and high-caliber working dogs will tend to experience bouts of aggression. Most people (commercial trainers and handlers, as well as pet owners) don't understand the concept of "too much of a good thing" and get super high drive dogs with no off button, thus the situation you probably saw. Very very very common.


In my experience I've had exposure to some police dogs in SAR, have some officer friends who train dogs for airports ,street work and jails. I also have friends that train their police dogs in Schutzhund. Oh! and I've also seen many, many movies and TV shows with police and military dogs in them!

In my experience, though so far I haven't had any bad experience with any of them, I can say that I have not enough experience to make any blank statement about how "most" are.


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## Lyz

Just something I noticed as common. I've seen safe and sane and the exact opposite. Back in Chicago where I'm from, I saw good and better. In Las Vegas where I am now, I see a lot worse. I guess it's geographic and specific to district, trainers, and methods. 

As for my experience with Police Dogs - most of which are pleasant - I just tend to find that these are high drive dogs with tenancies to act like high drive dogs. That wasn't a negative statement about the bulk of Police Dogs, just reiterating what I've seen and been around personally; dogs who pace frantically when off duty, vs. dogs who are calm and balanced family dogs. They're all different, I just tend to see more of the former. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing. One of my favorite dogs (Police K9, Michigan) would run a thousand laps around the pool -all day, everyday- at home and never sit still. He was still an excellent dog on duty and remains an excellent and stable dog today - sans pacing, but he was usually just looking for his ball. 

Anyway, not a point I'm going to argue. We all have our experiences. Those are mine.

And re: profanity - my apologies and dully noted.


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## Catu

Sorry, but there is a wide distance between high drive and "bouts of aggression"


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## Lyz

Unintentionally and poorly worded. That is, of course, my mistake. For which I apologize; there was no animosity intended toward police dogs in general. I love them; I love all working dogs.

But in regards to drive, I do tend to find that dogs with exceptionally high drive lose a lot of control because of it; states of arousal become overbearing and the dogs can act aggressive or out of control. There is such thing as "too much." 

Just a thought.


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## DFrost

Lyz said:


> But in regards to drive, I do tend to find that dogs with exceptionally high drive lose a lot of control because of it; states of arousal become overbearing and the dogs can act aggressive or out of control. There is such thing as "too much."
> 
> Just a thought.


I can't disagree that there is such a thing as "too much". If that is the case, then it was not a good selection for PSD. It would be the same as selecting a dog with "not enough". Neither candidate would be suitable for a good PSD. Selecting the correct dog, in my opinion, is more critical than selecting the handler. It's not to say the handler isn't an important component of the team, but I can do more with a mediocre handler, than I can with a mediocre dog. 

DFrost


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## Catu

DFrost said:


> It's not to say the handler isn't an important component of the team, but I can do more with a mediocre handler, than I can with a mediocre dog.


But (at least from my SAR perspective) good handlers are harder to find than good dogs. If you could only buy those...


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## Catu

Lyz said:


> But in regards to drive, I do tend to find that dogs with exceptionally high drive lose a lot of control because of it; states of arousal become overbearing and the dogs can act aggressive or out of control. There is such thing as "too much."


I agree that "too much" of anything is bad, but what you describe is more related to lack of good nerves than too much drive. Be it defense drive, fight drive, prey drive...


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## ladylaw203

Lyz said:


> - I just tend to find that these are high drive dogs with tenancies to act like high drive dogs. That wasn't a negative statement about the bulk of Police Dogs, just reiterating what I've seen and been around personally; dogs who pace frantically when off duty, vs. dogs who are calm and balanced family dogs.
> And re: profanity - my apologies and dully noted.


 
You have a very limited view of police dogs. We WANT high drive dogs,HOWEVER, we have to have solid nerves. A high drive neurotic dog is a nervy dog. We have to carefully evaluate dogs and some departments get dogs from vendors and the agency does not have a trainer with the expertise to eval themselves. Mals are an example of dogs that are great for police work,but some coming over are nervy along with the drive. We see this in GSDs as well. Do not judge all police service dogs by your limited exposure


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## ladylaw203

But in regards to drive, I do tend to find that dogs with exceptionally high drive lose a lot of control because of it; states of arousal become overbearing and the dogs can act aggressive or out of control. There is such thing as "too much." 
*******************

You are very very wrong. There is no such thing as too much drive. There is drive without the solid nerves to control it. We who train and handle these dogs and have for years know this

I have some of the highest drive dogs you will ever see. One is a GSD who have numerous titles including IRO SAR title. He is quite controllable. He is rock solid as are all of my dogs. That is why we evaluate the temperament and nerves along with the drive


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## suzzyq01

It really depends on the dog, the department, and what they consider ok.

Some departments have working K9's that can turn on and off the working behavior and are family dogs while at home "off duty" and are insane beasts while "on duty."

There are other departments that have working K9's that are off their rocker all the time and are kept separate from people other than their handler/animals because they will eat them all. There is no on or off switch for these dogs, they are "on" all the time.


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## selzer

I was working with my boy a couple of years ago, and a police dog, sherriff's Deputy k9, GSD, charged my dog. Two deputies were able to get him before he got us. They are not ALL dog-friendly, even if they are working police dogs.


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## suzzyq01

selzer said:


> I was working with my boy a couple of years ago, and a police dog, sherriff's Deputy k9, GSD, charged my dog. Two deputies were able to get him before he got us. They are not ALL dog-friendly, even if they are working police dogs.


Yea, socialization is NOT a high priority for a police dog. 

The K9 here is great with people/dogs unless he is in working mode. But just hanging out he is very social. If he is on a search and you get near the handler he will get very protective, even to other officers on the hunt with him so all other officers must stay 10 ft or more behind the K9 and his handler.


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## Jessiewessie99

The police dogs I have seen seem controllable and listen very well. I have only seen them at events. Lakewood doesn't have a K-9 unit(I don't think they do.), but they are with the LASD and LAPD, so the K-9 Units are with them I am assuming.


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## ladylaw203

German shepherds have a high propensity to be dog aggressive. Not just police k9s,but all. That is common knowledge. Just the way it is.


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## Lyz

The trend that I noticed with members (individually or collectively) of various units was that in some cases drive was taken in account over nerves. Trainers from different schools of thought produce different results- good, bad, and ugly. At the kennels here and back east, was a very common sight to see dogs who "could not socialize" or "weren't friendly." High drive, no nerve. Good nerve - poor handling. Good dog, bad training. Good dog, no socialization. Whatever the reason. 

But as always, it tends to boil down to training (or a lackthereof.) There are different methods out there which produce different results, irrespective of the traits of the dog. Bad training produces inconsistent results, of which, the aftermath is surprisingly common. Re: not only the topic of this thread, but the multiple stories within it, multiplied geographically in the hundreds. 

It only takes a bad experience with one dog to create a stigma for an entire breed. Unfortunately, because not all training standards are as high, accidents happen. I'm assuming you're no doubt familiar with the widely popular Youtube videos of the (Police Dog) who turned around and bit his handler in the hand, the dog that was released and didn't perform, and so on.


Anyway, no need to explain further. I'm sure you are very familiar with good and bad trainers, methods, and the point I'm trying to illustrate. Just a moot topic for me to keep defending; my original point being that -it does happen, all across the United States, in a variety of circumstances, for all sorts of reasons. Not saying that with a bias- just the obvious.




Best.


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## DFrost

Beating the proverbial dead horse certainly won't change your mind. From my perspective, if your experience is seeing a couple of dogs and a youtube of a dog that wouldn't engage and another than bit a handler, your experience is, at best, limited. While it may well only take one bad experience to create a stigma, the fact is, PSD's are held to a higher standard, on a daily basis, than most any other career with dogs. Are there dogs that should not be PSD's? Probably. Are there handlers that shouldn't be handlers? Probably. For the most part, they are a regulated group, operating in a pretty transparent arena. 

DFrost


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## Lyz

Oh no no no, a bit more than a few dogs. I'm not an officer, but I've trained ...gosh...hundreds, even thousands, of dogs. Working dogs, family pets, service dogs, AKC Obedience/Rally, Agility. The trainer I work with, and the trainer that trained me, was a police officer so I worked with him in Michigan and surrounding. I currently train for Schutzhund on the West Coast so much of my experience has been with working dogs - some of which are active duty police dogs, some retired, and a whole mix of others in between.

The mention of a Youtube video was just to give a sort of common example that might illustrate the point more clearly. I routinely board some awesome police dogs (two active, one retired) and enjoy them all. I'm currently involved more with training dogs commercially (commercials, movies, etc.) just because it's incredibly fun for me - but the principals are all the same: drive, control, discipline, affection. Not necessarily in that order.


But you make a good point, and in short, covered everything I would've said in less words.


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## ladylaw203

some of which are active duty police dogs, 




The important word there is SOME. My friend I dont think you are old enough to have trained thousands of dogs
I have been doing this for well over 20years,importing,handling,training and certifying police service dogs for the largest police k9 org in the nation and I have not trained thousands.

You have very limited experience with police dogs and sport has little to do with police work on the street. And there are some total nerve bags in sport because it is an arbitrary routine that a weak dog can be trained to pass. 

There are thousands of police service dogs in the US. Common sense would dictate that not all are spot on. If they were all perfect,there would be no need for them to come to me for certification each year. And some fail and must come back in a month after they have fixed the problem. You simply have not had enough exposure to a wide variety of police and military dogs to speak responsibly on a "trend". And as this is the case,you are not necessarily properly interpreting what you are seeing.


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## cliffson1

:thumbup:, Not to pile on, but I wrote a post last night about the difference in police and sport training and you can't use one as a validation of knowledge of the other. I scrapped it because I figured the people who do this routinely already know this, and others won't change their opinion whether it is informed or not. Ladylaw you are onpoint!


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## DFrost

I just say it very simply; What we do ain't sport.

DFrost


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## crewchief_chick

Being in the military I've seen a high variety of service dogs...whether it be for bitework, or bombs, or drugs.

Some of these dogs are highly approachable, and love people. I've met some who are actually biased towards certain ethnic groups (plus I think his handler egged him on to be that way, or he couldnt stand the smell)

There are some that you just dont mess with if you arent their handler. When those dogs step foot on my aircraft they are muzzled. I am not going to be bit by a dog who perceives me as a threat when I'm trying to get in or out of my crewchief station.

I've seen working dogs rip the doors of their kennels in an effort to get to someone cuz they are just that nutty, and I've gotten to "dogsit" (handler had to use the latrine), throw balls, kongs, rope toys, and enjoyed a few minutes getting to spend time with the k9 guys overseas. The 5 minutes you can spend loving on a dog (GSD, Mal, whatever) does wonders to ease the pressures of being overseas.

I've had a dog go nutty on me once, because a friend came up and half tackled me from behind. The dog was fine beforehand, but I knew he was not one that I was familiar enough with to be able to pet.

I've had awesome experiences, I've had bad experiences, and I've taken them all with a grain of salt. I ask before I approach, I say hello, and I'm generally greeted by a wet nose and a big ol kiss.


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## carmspack

those were pretty grandiose claims , without any proof of results even -- and even if on the off chance possible to see the dogs that work , how in the world do you get an over view of what or how the dogs are after hours , at home ???
to see many police service dogs at one time , in the "hundreds" go to a police dog trial. I go as often as I can when trials are reasonably close . Some are smaller , local , regional events . One I went to was in a football stadium and it was quite the show .
Best memory and impression was at a show which celebrated the service of a very popular dog , black GSD Carmspack Keno, Purina Hall of Famer, always positive press -- . I had got the special invite from his handler to attend not knowing that there was going to be anything special. Went with a bunch of friends . My eyes were bugging out at some of the dogs, my friends eyes (ladies) were bugging out at some of the fine officers . 
Anyway it was an experience never to be equalled to be made aware of the impact the dog had on fellow officers that had contact with the dog, and to see the appreciation of the crowd . 
As I said to my friends that day this was an experience that every show person every sport person should have attended.
Many of the dogs were nothing short of spectacular. There were several I would have taken home !!
You could see efficient working dog build.
You could see intensity under control.
You could see a flow of connection between handler and dog . 
Later I got invited back behind the tape and I got to ask questions about the dogs , there who and wheres and whats. Close contact . Even more impressive when you hear the service they provide.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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