# Embark/Breeder nightmare



## Ckai (Dec 31, 2019)

When I say this is for a friend, it really is for a friend, although I’ve had a pup in the past from this breeder.
First, I feel guilty as all get out. Here is the story:

A close dog friend of mine has a 16 month old pup. AKC registered with limited registration until her spay, at which time the breeder would file to have the status change to full AKC registration. No biggie, been there done that with plenty of pups, as has my friend, so he didn’t think twice about it. I was visiting with him when the pup was about 3/4 months old. Not positive of the timeline. Anyhow, I noticed the pups tail curled like a husky or chow. I made a passing comment about it, and didn’t think about it again. Until this morning. My dear friend called and is in a panic. He apparently sent off a DNA test to Embark, and the results are less than stellar. My passing comment had him questioning it as well, and he couldn’t stop thinking about it, so he decided to use Embark. I cannot post the results as I don’t have his permission, but he is asking advice on how to handle this.
He is not breeding or competing, so the results aren’t going to have a negative impact on him or his plans for the pup, however, he feels like he should be reimbursed for the difference in what a pet quality GSD vs a fully registered GSD (after the spay) would cost.
My advice was to contact the breeder calmly. I don’t know how accurate these tests are, and he could easily ruin a popular breeders reputation based on these new DNA things. He is pretty livid and wants to scream it from the rooftop, but did agree to let a day or two go by before he contacts the breeder so he can speak rationally. His temper has a tendency to explode into nasty expletives when he’s angry. He’s asking me to be part of the conversation with the breeder, and I feel like it’s my fault for bringing up that danged tail to begin with, so I’m in a pickle.
This is a very reputable breeder, I will NOT post any info on the breeder or lines at this point, because the breeder is well known to forum members, and I don’t want to cause a stir if these tests are faulty. I had no issue competing with my pup once I had full registration on her, but this was about 9 years ago. The lineage checks out on the AKC website for both sire and dam, and no issues on reviews for the breeder in the past with the exception of one who “got a sick puppy” but also admitted to taking the pup everywhere from day one without vet care, so that one I wouldn’t even consider.
One day I will learn to edit my own posts, I know I’m wordy. Just looking for any advice on anyone else that may have had a similar experience, and how it was handled. He doesn’t want to return the pup because he’s bonded, and just wanted a companion, but paid well over the amount than a pet quality dog would go for. He doesn’t want to drag the breeder through the mud and possibly ruin a great reputation, just wants the difference in what he paid returned. And probably wants to use every bad word in the dictionary, along with some new ones he loves to make up, and unload that on the breeder first. So any advice? Had it been my pup, I would contact the breeder by phone or email, give all details as well as a copy of the results, and see what the breeder had to say before I took it anywhere.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wait. How does embark tell you the difference of a pet quality to a well bred dog? That makes no sense. 
" should be reimbursed for the difference in what a pet quality GSD vs a fully registered GSD (after the spay) would cost. "

Either the dog is purebred (and the DNA shows 100% shepherd) or it's not. But it can't tell whether it's "well bred" or not. If it shows health issues, well even the world champions have DM in their lines so...

If it came back as a mixed breed, then the DNA of the parents may be filed with the AKC and it can be verified that way. And yes, the breeder should be notified of these results.

And also, if you spay/neuter an animal then having full registration vs. limited means absolutely nothing. Limited only means the dog's progeny can't be registered. Full registration only comes in if you want to breed the animal or show in conformation. Neither of which you can do if the dog is spayed.

To be frank, I'm always baffled why people think a "pet quality" dog is worth less than other dogs. These dogs are crap. They come from the same litters as the dogs being bred.


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

My parents used to breed and show AKC registered dogs and my dad used to say that the registration papers didn't mean diddly squat. This was long before dna was used. But he claimed unless one witnessed the actual mating and
the female was not exposed to another male, then no one actually knows who the parents are. The papers were just
a piece of paper. No proof of anything.
Embark is considered to be quite accurate. Your friend needs to research the difference in price for a 'pet quality',
unregistered mixed breed and what he paid. Could be the whole price paid. Example: My Embarked 100% GSD
unregistered, cost $10. at the shelter, spayed, shots, chipped included.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I would think a pup sold on limited registration pending a spay is NOT considered breed-worthy anyway.
That aside, the owner still paid for what he thought was a purebred GSD, and obviously is not. And as far as I understand how things work with AKC, this means the breeder is in BIG trouble!!

If the breeder had any inkling that another dog accidentally got to the bitch while she was in season, the pups should not have been sold with any sort of registration.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Ckai said:


> When I say this is for a friend, it really is for a friend, although I’ve had a pup in the past from this breeder.
> First, I feel guilty as all get out. Here is the story:
> 
> A close dog friend of mine has a 16 month old pup. AKC registered with limited registration until her spay, at which time the breeder would file to have the status change to full AKC registration. No biggie, been there done that with plenty of pups, as has my friend, so he didn’t think twice about it. I was visiting with him when the pup was about 3/4 months old. Not positive of the timeline. Anyhow, I noticed the pups tail curled like a husky or chow. I made a passing comment about it, and didn’t think about it again. Until this morning. My dear friend called and is in a panic. He apparently sent off a DNA test to Embark, and the results are less than stellar. My passing comment had him questioning it as well, and he couldn’t stop thinking about it, so he decided to use Embark. I cannot post the results as I don’t have his permission, but he is asking advice on how to handle this.
> ...


What is the purpose of full AKc reg after a spay? I thought the only difference between full and limited was the ability to register offspring and if the dog is spayed there won't be any

You can compete in AKC events with limited reg. I don't know about conformation. I would assume altered classes wouldn't care between full and limited


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ahhh...well your post kept saying "pet quality GSD". If he was sold a mixed breed when he was promised a purebred, that's another matter. He should calmly take the results to the breeder and ask to DNA the parents. Let him work it out between the breeder. It's really that simple. 

I don't know a single working line breeder that sells "pet quality" for less. Because you don't always know how the dogs will turn out. And the dog isn't worth less when it's the perfect dog for one person, just not another. That's typically a showline breeder thing, not a working line breeder thing. And it's stupid.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What is the purpose of full AKc reg after a spay? I thought the only difference between full and limited was the ability to register offspring and if the dog is spayed there won't be any
> 
> You can compete in AKC events with limited reg. I don't know about conformation. I would assume altered classes wouldn't care between full and limited


Exactly!!!! You can still do sports with limited, just not conformation. And if you spay the dog, then full registration is pointless anyways because you can't show an altered animal and you can't breed them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

He paid 5k for a puppy? I assume that had to be show line breeder when you consider the price and the grading of the puppies from show to pet. 

This really isn't your problem. He just needs to take the results to the breeder and ask to DNA the parents. It either is or it isn't and then it's a civil issue between them. Sometimes, it's better to stay out of fight.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Opinion: This isn't your fight.... tread lightly.

Fact: You can do ALL venues of AKC _except for conformation showing_ with limited registration. Spayed/neutered dogs are ineligible for AKC conformation. There's really no point in changing the papers over.... it does nothing. 

You can get a UKC number to do UKC sports with limited AKC registration. Unlike AKC, UKC has an altered class, so if your friend wants to do conformation with a neutered dog, that's probably their best option anyway. Dozens of other venues don't require anything besides a tracking number that anyone can acquire - purebred, mixed, or unknown.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Limited registration in which again means in the breeders eyes the dog is not breed worthy which I can understand that can change later per breeder depending how the pup matures. In a addition for showlines means that dog can not be entered in shows but can compete in other venues. $5,000 is an awful lot of money to pay for a limited registration pup. A curled tail at rest? Perhaps why limited just guessing on that. My male retained testicle a limited registration. I new that before I bought the dog. A curled tail does not depict a mixed breed - purebred dogs can have faults . My male carry his tail many different way which would be considered standard. I hear those tests are not always accurate and compared to human dna tests there are no regulations for dog dna tests. I would imagine it to be fun though. As mentioned they should bring this up to the breeder.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Without seeing the dog it sounds like it is a gay tail which can be a fault In German shepherds which is no major issue in the slightest. Again I would not put that much into dog dna tests not at the present time maybe in the future hopefully it will improve. Spending 5,000 on a pup I would assume your friend did some research on the breeder. For 5,000 I hope their is open communication with the breeder.








Should you get your pet's DNA tested? Scientists urge caution


Science chats with a veterinarian and an evolutionary biologist about the potential benefits—and pitfalls—of dog and cat DNA testing




www.sciencemag.org


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Embark is by no means a guarantee of anything. I have seen a lot of crazy things that just aren't possible on their Facebook page. Things such as a dog coming back as a Dobe and Pointer mix yet the dog had a Great Pyrenees coat. 

I personally pointed something out to them about dogs that weigh over 25# and like magic, it stopped. Things that make you go hmmm.

I have a GSD with a ring tail. It is not carried like that all the time, just when he is aroused. I don't think it's such a big deal.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

How far back is the mix? It's possible that somewhere along the line another breed was introduced into the bloodline but doesn't necessarily mean it was introduced by the breeder he dealt with. 

1. He should tell the breeder about the test results.

2. He should send a copy of the registration papers along with the results of the test to the AKC stating his concern that the dog may not be a purebred GSD. (tell him to call the AKC first and talk with someone about how to proceed. If this is a reputable breeder chances are the AKC has at least some DNA on file for parentage in the bloodline. 

Should the breeder agree to give some money back my advice would still be to contact the AKC.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Exactly!!!! You can still do sports with limited, just not conformation. And if you spay the dog, then full registration is pointless anyways because you can't show an altered animal and you can't breed them.


Does AKC not have altered conformation classes? I know ASCA does. I don't know much about conformation

And if you don't have full reg you can't show in AKC conformation?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Nevermind I see the answer to my question above.

So if you buy a dog with limited reg you cannot decide one day you want to show in conformation? That seems kind of unfair...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Nevermind I see the answer to my question above.
> 
> So if you buy a dog with limited reg you cannot decide one day you want to show in conformation? That seems kind of unfair...


If you plan on showing, why would you buy limited? Or the breeder can change it to full registration. Faren has limited registration. When she's titled, it will be changed to full. This is super common. BUT - if the dog is spayed then it's pointless to have it changed to full. You do not gain anything.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So if you buy a dog with limited reg you cannot decide one day you want to show in conformation? That seems kind of unfair...


This is where co-owns are popular. A good number of people who buy with intent to show, but the breeder/seller isn't going to release full registration to them (immediately), end up co-owning (full registration). It protects the dog from being bred indiscriminately, but the puppy/young dog/adult can be shown in AKC conformation.

(ETA, the above is in reference to AKC, not other venues).


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Does AKC not have altered conformation classes?


The only ones I'm aware of are non-regular classes, or "sweeps". There was one at the GSDCA National last year as part of the versatility competition. Dogs competing in 3+ venues could enter the versatility sweeps in order to be shown in conformation at a large event that otherwise favors a more specific flavor of the breed. Altered dogs were eligible, but this class was entirely separate from what people refer to as "the breed ring", and it's not common.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You do not need full registration to show in an SV show


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> If you plan on showing, why would you buy limited? Or the breeder can change it to full registration. Faren has limited registration. When she's titled, it will be changed to full. This is super common. BUT - if the dog is spayed then it's pointless to have it changed to full. You do not gain anything.


Why would I buy limited...I wouldn't choose to but seems like the vast majority of breeders that's their terms. I am glad I just found this out because I had thought to try conformation in the future.


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## buddyr93 (Sep 26, 2017)

$5K for a mix?? That's totally unacceptable. Any breeder who charges that much surely has to know their dogs inside and out. It just shouldn't happen. How many other people paid that and have no idea??


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Ckai said:


> You’re right, I shouldn’t get involved. I don’t know the conversations he had with the breeder, I don’t know what transpired from the time of the contract until now, and I can’t even say confidently that this is indeed the same dog he purchased from the breeder. I saw the puppy once, and made a passing remark about her tail, and aside from conversations regarding the activities we do with our dogs, and tossing new ideas on how to challenge them back and forth, I’ve had no specific conversations regarding this particular puppy. I just feel guilty I planted the seed when I made the tail remark. And I know how he can overreact to situations, so I talked him off the ledge so to speak, and convinced him to give it a few days before contacting the breeder. I’ll let him know that’s as comfortable as I feel getting involved. It may put a strain on our petshinship, but I think we can recover from that eventually.


You shouldn't feel guilty about making a remark on a puppy's tail. Are you not allowed to make comments on anything? What your friend did about it (getting an Embark test done)...it's on him, not you. Your comment may get back some of 5 grand that your friend paid the breeder...either in court or out of it. Btw, 5k for a companion dog?


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## Orphan Heidi (Sep 21, 2018)

just a thought and question:
Who actually oversees that dna of breeding dogs is accurate and valid? Is there a witness from AKC when dog is swabbed? And dog is then matched to a chip or tatoo?
When I swabbed my dog for Embark, it was in my kitchen and no witnesses and then I mailed it in. Is the AKC dna
swabbing handled as loosely?
My point is, unless dna swabbing is monitored and handled by authorities, any dog's dna could have been sent in under the name of XXX dog. Switch and bait???


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

He paid 5k for a dog he was going to spay and THEN get full registration on? Good deal you stepped out of it. The whole thing is just atypical. I can get buying an expensive dog just because you can, but I don't get the rhyme or reason for a spay being a condition of full registration. Anyway, Embark can be inaccurate. It sounds like he bought a SL (considering the price), and you somewhat indicated on top of a curled tail he didn't get the "drive" he was looking for. Was it a SL or WL? I'd stay out of it as you have wisely chosen to do.


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## Petra's Dad (Jan 6, 2020)

I find it very strange that the OP of this thread got banned before explaining anything that happened. I guess we'll never know now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Petra's Dad said:


> I find it very strange that the OP of this thread got banned before explaining anything that happened. I guess we'll never know now.


You think she was banned because of this thread?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> You think she was banned because of this thread?


We will never know but usually it’s something extreme or rude, or having two accounts.


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## Petra's Dad (Jan 6, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> You think she was banned because of this thread?



No. Just wondering why they were banned.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Petra's Dad said:


> No. Just wondering why they were banned.


We are rarely told why someone was banned unless there is a ton of drama. but like LuvShepherds said, it's usually extreme or having two accounts or sometimes 6 all with different personalities.


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## Petra's Dad (Jan 6, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> We are rarely told why someone was banned unless there is a ton of drama. but like LuvShepherds said, it's usually extreme or having two accounts or sometimes 6 all with different personalities.


Wow, 6 accounts!? Don't see the point but hey it's the internet I guess.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Petra's Dad said:


> I find it very strange that the OP of this thread got banned before explaining anything that happened. I guess we'll never know now.


We do not publicly discuss reasons for banning, but I can assure you it had nothing to do with this thread.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

When thing don't makes sense, a reason there usually is (Yoda voice)


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I want to thank the moderators for everything they do to keep this very active and sometimes dramatic forum running so smoothly.


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