# Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child



## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi Gang,

We are experiencing some very odd behavior w/our 11 month old non-neutered male. Up until a week or so ago, he has been a great dog for the family (my wife and two daughters 6 and 10). Without question a very dominant dog who needs a leader, but a wonderful companion. He has gone through basic obedience. Been very socialized and always been good around the kids. Originally a little mouthy but no real problems. He gets tons of exercise both mental and physical. 

Just in the past couple of days he has growled at both of our girls and has a particualr bead on our six year old. The growl is low and menacing and his body language is like he is wound super tight ready to launch. (Note: We have had him since 8 weeks old and he has never been this way.) Even spooks me a little, and I rarely get on high alert. Once he growled when the littlest tried to pet him and just tonight when she walked even near him. 

Neither girl has ever abused him in any way and have always been very affectionate but respectful with him. No ear or tail pulling, etc. They are also always supervised when they are with him by us. During the last two days he follows the 6 year old with his eyes constantly and not in the friendly manner he did but just a few weeks ago. When he growls we tell him "no" firmly and put him in a down. We also are keeping him on the lead constantly. Before the growling he had a lot of freedom, but now we have cut that back. Interestingly, after the growling incidents (three so far) he will come to either my wife and I licking and shaking a little. Both daughters feed him and have him sit, stay, etc. prior to feediing. NILIF is also being practiced. 

Suffice it to say, from what I am seeing, none of this seems like very good signs and I simply cannot afford an incident, he is a big dog. I also do not want to feel like my daughter's safety is in jeaopardy should I turn my back for a second, even if he is leashed and with me if she walks by him or something. 

This is my third GSD and I have never experienced anything like this. Never. Other than his hormones surging over the past couple of months as he has matured, I can find no explanation or really know what the realistic next step should be. Any thoughts would be most appreciated.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Did you read through the post at the top about the medical issues?
Perhaps something's up medically

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=554900&page=1#Post554900


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

is this the same boy who was growling when you picked him up (per earlier posts here), when he was younger? if so, i'm thinking you may have a temperment problem. i know you'll get many good answers from people who have more experience with training than i do, but i'd be very concerned (as i can see you are). wishing you the best, what an unfortunate experience.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Has he had any vaccinations, flea treatments or medications recently? Could be a case where he is trying to move up in "rank" over the kids or sees them like he would another dog. 

I would put him on a leash and tether him to you or your wife and not let him have any unsupervised access to the girls. If you can't have him under complete control, then crate him in another room. 

Were there any toys or bones near him when he growled. He sounds like my young dogs act toward each other - which is fine for other dogs, but not for kids.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Is it possible that the kids accidentally injured him in some way? What is his temperament like otherwise? Is he confident, shy, easygoing, nervous, etc.? 

Has he ever had any resource guarding issues?


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

Thank you all for your thoughts thus far. 

katiliz - Yes, this is the same pup, but . . . though always dominant, he has never ever shown this kind of tempermant issue. This is totally out of the blue and unprovoked. 

His health is fine and he is it top shape. 

There were no toys or bones involved, which again, is what causes me concern. If there were some kind of trigger (an issue over a toy, etc.), I would be more at ease. This is an out of the blue menaning growl. And his body language and eyes seem like he means some "serious" business. Problem is, nothing logical has provoked him. 

The moving up via "rank" could be the closest explanation, but this is a pretty deep and low growl which I would not expect him to use merely to dominate the kid, as he does not need to do that. It is out of character for the dog and the situation. 

No shots or vaccines yet either, and his behavior is not across the board, it is just focused really on the smallest child. 

No resource gaurding and very confident, not shy, but very dominant. The only odd issue is if he encounters an adult who is genuinley frightened by him, he will absolutely "go off" barking like mad, almost unexplanably. Inevitably when we ask the person why they were scared, we get the response that they have been bitten before. This has only happened a few times, but, in each instance he has picked up on the fear immediately. 

All really perplexing and frustrating.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Where are you? I think you need to get a really good behaviorist in there ASAP.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

When our Mastiff started to growl and be grumpy with our children we had a full blood panel run and there were some problems that needed treated with medication. Maybe ask the vet to run everything? I have a 6 yr old too and would be just as concerned as you are. Good Luck.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

You can have your vet check his thyroid but it would be highly out of the ordinary to see thyroid problems in a dog that young.


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Thanks again. Located in Los Angeles. 

We had a blood pannel done a month or so ago for unrelated item and all was really good. 

The dog has been absolutely bullet proof up to now. And I watch his body language, habits (energy/eating/drinking/pee/poop, etc.) as if he were one of my kids noticing even the slightest changes and all seems in order, though I guess I could get another panel done.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

have you spoken to gruenfeld? the growling when he was picked up as a younger puppy raises a red flag to me. none of my kidz have ever growled at me, and it would have especially concerned me if it happened when they were youngsters.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*



> Quote:
> We had a blood pannel done a month or so ago for unrelated item and all was really good.


Why did you do a blood panel a month ago? Did he have a problem or was he taking some kind of medication?

It doesn't say if you have taken your boy to any obedience classes, this might be a good start. I know a great trainer in Yorba Linda who is experienced with German Shepherds and also works with the GS Rescues. She has great classes and I personally have worked with her and know alot of people who have taken her classes. 

IMO The 1st resource for any owner for questions or concerns with a dog or pup is the breeder (or for people with rescue dogs - the rescue group), I would suggest contacting your breeder and asking for advice as well.


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi GS Mom. 

We did the blood panel for some possible dental work which never was performed and is not something he needs done at this point. 

We did obedience classes a few months back and took the fall off. We are getting back to them now. So he has had obedience and we are keeping at it. As I noted, he is generally well behaved, follows all basic commands. Not an unruly out of control dog in any way. (Even has an off switch with the few people he has barked aggressively at upon given a firm "no bark" and down stay command.) But, no question he could use more work, though it is in the pack dynamic (especially indoors) where he has shown this odd behavior. Only four growling incidents, but, after working with many dogs and and most recently GSDs for years, they were the kind of growls that puts you on high alert. The you know it when you hear it type. Hence my taking action immediately and reaching out to the community. 

I have also reached out to our breeder who is definitely a great resource and her instinct is he is trying to jockey up the pack order. I am going to be working with her and our local trainer to nip this in the bud. 

Thanks again all for the support and thoughts.


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## mmsteele01 (Dec 10, 2008)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Just a thought.....when Katie was younger we left her get up on our couch ~ all the time. Then about 3 years ago, 2 things: vet told us Katie's hips (dysplasia) could no longer take jumping up (or going upstairs) and we needed to get a new couch too, which my husband wanted to keep pristine and he said to start making her stay off the old couch. Well, I'll tell you every time I tried to get her off the couch she bared her teeth at me and did a low gutteral growl. I eventually got her permanently off the couch by putting pillows, etc. on it all the time, and she got the message after a while.

I'm thinking there's something that may have changed recently....and maybe it's just that your little girl is getting older and she's beginning to act differently too. Your male is only 11 months old? He's beginning to become a teenager and wants to see who's going to be the dominate puppy (remember you're his pack family). I don't know if this is so.....but if he isn't acting out otherwise it might be a possibility. I hope everything works out well! Good luck!


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

Michele you hit on what our breeder thinks also - he is asserting or trying to assert his ability as a teenage male to climb the pack ladder. Also, something my wife noted: for various reasons, I was AWOL for most of the holiday period (three weeks) with a situation immediately prior to his acting out which prevented me from actively 1) following our usual routines and 2) exercising my alpha leadership role. So, may very well be a perfect storm of situations to cause or provide fertile soil for the unwanted/threatening behavior. 1) Dog with very dominant personality. 2) Hormones and natural instinct. 3) Indisposed pack leader.


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

I have an un-neutered male who is 11.5 months old now, along with a 7 yr old daughter and almost 6 yr old son. About 2 months ago, Shadow began acting very similar to what you're describing, and it's only with my son. I also think that it's a pack ladder issue. Immediately following the first growl, I had my son start doing basic obedience with Shadow, sit, down, stay, heel etc. Shadow listens, my son treats. (I'm always right there "enforcing" the law). Also, Shadow is allowed on my bed. When the kids come in, the dog now gets off. Kids come first. We haven't had another incident in the past 2-3 weeks. He actually looks for my son now, because when my son is around, he gets "yummies". The kids give him cut up hot dogs as treats, DH and I just give the doggie cookies.

Good luck.


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Thank you for sharing the story Di. Nice to not be alone. We have stepped up the basic obedience with the kids. No incidents since, however, due to the power and size of Udo, were bringing in a trainer who has tons of experience with protection dogs, etc. and are going to have him observe how we all work with Udo, how he responds to the girls and their commands, etc. We're also back in weekly obedience class. We will also neutrer him next month when he turns 12 months old. In my opinion, these are zero margin of error dogs when it comes to kids, so hopefully progress will continue. Thanks again for everyone's input.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

one thing from your initial post struck me,,you said after each incident the dog would go to you or your wife,,licking and shaking a little..THAT to me, indicates a fear response..or a lack of feeling comfortable response..Growling is a warning,,he is warning your daughter to stay away. possibly..

I am in by no means saying what others have posted isn't on the mark,,just "that" statement by you, jumped out at me.

Growling with me anyhow, is a catch 22,,I certainly don't want a dog to just GO OFF,,no warning,,,growling indicates to me, the dog is either fearful or very uncomfortable in whatever situation it's in,
(and I have a male aussie who is a growler)..

What I do with my aussie, is never to tell him "no growling',,cause frankly I'd rather have some type of "warning" vs him just going off.
I basically use a 'leave it'..(which I tend to use to for ALOT of things) 

SO it growling IS a catch 22, and you have to do what you think will work with your own situation..

Good luck, hope you get to the bottom of the behavior


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Thanks for the thoughts Dianne. Yes, it was a "stay away" growl. And without question, there is that balance between qwelling the behavior and extinguishing the warning (which we don't want to do). Last few days of probation, no free roaming, no sleeping on kids bed, and either crate or leashed to one of the adults during all waking hours seems to have done some good. Lots of obedience, with all the kids requiring multiple controlled sits, downs, heels, etc. By no means out of the woods, and may never be. He may just be at a point where we got too comfortable and started letting him think too much for himself, something he may not necessarily want to do right now. 

One theory on the licking and submissive behavior, is that he comes to the Alphas after the incident to lick and submit such that he is trying to say, "my beef is not with you, it is with the other pack member, don't retalliate". That is one viewpoint at least.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowIs it possible that the kids accidentally injured him in some way? What is his temperament like otherwise? Is he confident, shy, easygoing, nervous, etc.?
> 
> Has he ever had any resource guarding issues?


I wouldn't put much stock in the kid's accidentally injuring him idea. A stable dog shouldn't carry around any issues from something like that.

I would definitely want a physical exam and thyroid panel done, in the least to rule out medical cause.

One thing I would recommend is NOT correcting him for growling. A dog who doesn't growl is a dangerous thing...that's the main warning we pick up on. Take that away and you aren't going to see a bite coming.

The way I'd likely tackle it isn't something I'd really recommend...because honestly, I'd challenge him. Those are MY children, they are under me and above him and no corrections/warnings/aggression toward them from him would be tolerated. If I caught him growling at them, we'd have a come to Jesus meeting on the spot. But you have said that he is a dominant boy and at his age...that could go badly for you.

I would suggest keeping him on a lead near the children and work on exercises that let him know that they are higher in ranking than him.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*



> Originally Posted By: slapshothis behavior is not across the board, it is just focused really on the smallest child.


That is a clue.

#1- the smallest/weakest member of the pack is the easiest (in the dog's mind) to climb up over to elevate his rank. If that's the issue, working on re-establishing and enforcing the child's position over him will go a long way.

#2- the smallest child tends to be the most animated. I have 3 boys, and my youngest (5) is definitely the loudest/most active. The child may be making the dog nervous. If that's the issue, I'd still work them together and try to get the child to bring it down a notch or two in regard to behavior.

I still think keeping him on a lead around them is a good idea until you get it figured out and ironed out.

Good luck!!!!


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## slapshot (Feb 2, 2007)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

Thanks Reichsmom! We are having our come to Jesus incidents once every other day and either I am not making my point hard enough - difficult to imagine as I drive it home - or the dog is very hard and simply does not take it in. The 10 year old called him over this morning, he came, when she started to pet him, he did his little growl. So, he has issues all over, with both kids. And the catch 22, as has been pointed out, if you correct them at the point of growl you extinguish the growl and risk losing the warning, if you don't the behavior goes on. So where to go from here. And this is definitely not a situation where treats or tangible rewards, etc. have any impact. Not that kind of mindset on him. 

This is our 3rd GSD, (actually one was a mix) and never have we had any issues like this. The question at this point really revolves around is he a dog which is (or can be made safe) or does this dog have weak nerves and poor temperment, or could this dog possibly just not be right for a family. We're in the process of doing the trainer at the house, evaluations, etc. But, definitely a very discouraging situation and not what i had expected at all out of the dog.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

*Re: Major Issue - Out Of Blue -w. 11 Month Old & Child*

If you're having meetings that often and it isn't changing anything...I would get in touch with a behaviorist. I've never encountered a dog (even stubborn old rotts) who haven't sung a different tune after a nice 'meeting'.

You have your hands full, and I wish you the best of luck!


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