# Prong collar …. Other alternative methods for pulling and reactivity



## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

Hi all,
We are currently using a prong collar for my 12 month girl under supervision of a dog trainer. 
we tried CONSISTENT lead training with her for her first 8 months on just a collar and lead, but I obviously went wrong somewhere as we needed to start trying other collars to get her to walk to heal…. Finally 4 months after changing up with different leads the prong is working great.

however…. I’m not 100% keen on using the prong despite how effective it is (just my personal opinion, I’ve got nothing against people who love using them).

is there any other methods anyone else uses (not prong or e collar) what can help with Her reactivity and constant pulling?

In 6 months time once her growth plates have closed I want to start training her to run with me so hopefully I can get her off this prong in that time!! As obviously do not want her running with a prong 😬 but equally don’t want to risk being dragged along the road 😆

any tips I would very much appreciate ♥ 🐕


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

That was my desire as well. However they are too smart and will know when they are having the prong on or not. I know you can teach them otherwise and I probably failed in this out of laziness but I finally decided that I just take her on the prong whenever there are too many distractions and I need power-steering.


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

At 12 months she is an adolescent.

If you are managing her behaviour with a prong then that is great. At this age she doesn’t necessarily need to be taught, just disallowed to partake in bad behaviour, when she emerges as an adult, she’ll be fine. It’s like telling a teenager they can’t drive til they’re 17, with the idea being by that age they’ll be old enough to manage the responsibility. In this analogy, the prong is ‘disallowing driving’.


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Summer86 said:


> Hi all,
> We are currently using a prong collar for my 12 month girl under supervision of a dog trainer.
> we tried CONSISTENT lead training with her for her first 8 months on just a collar and lead, but I obviously went wrong somewhere as we needed to start trying other collars to get her to walk to heal…. Finally 4 months after changing up with different leads the prong is working great.
> 
> ...


Also, I’d note you’re UK based like me and my dog,

I’m guessing you’ve received negative attention for the prong?

We have got a lot wrong in the UK with dog training; crate training is unusual and prongs are cruel? It’s all political but rest assured any serious dog trainer will respect the use of prong - the only problem is that 99% of British dog owners are clueless - I’d hope you agree (wherever in the UK you’re from) that most dogs here are typically harmless but untrained. Meanwhile you or I might be the ones judged for actually taking a pragmatic approach to dog training (a potentially dangerous breed).

You’re doing a good job and don’t bow down to the haters.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

What is the dog like to train? Adolescence is difficult. Has she really had a strong correction? How long can she walk in heel? How long do you need her to? How outrageous are the reactions?

Edit- I have a 5 year old I don't really trust without the prong. I'm just getting there


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> What is the dog like to train? Adolescence is difficult. Has she really had a strong correction? How long can she walk in heel? How long do you need her to? How outrageous are the reactions?
> 
> Edit- I have a 5 year old I don't really trust without the prong. I'm just getting there


Really interested to know if you’ve had him in a prong since he was a pup or you got him as a rescue then have had him on the prong since then?


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

I had a GSD mix 20 years ago who loved it when I brought out the prong collar. That meant we were going to train. As soon as she saw it she would sit and her tail swished like crazy. She would have been great at obedience competition. Unfortunately back then mixed breeds couldn't compete.


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Rosebud99 said:


> I had a GSD mix 20 years ago who loved it when I brought out the prong collar. That meant we were going to train. As soon as she saw it she would sit and her tail swished like crazy. She would have been great at obedience competition. Unfortunately back then mixed breeds couldn't compete.


Good introduction and good use means they love it and are at their best - at least that’s what I’ve found so far!


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## perrymel (Oct 28, 2021)

There us so much negativity around the prong collar ( and I was one of them) But I have total control of my boy (14months , 92 lbs) and now am a believer. We both really enjoy our walks and it would be nice one day to not have to use it, but he really doesn't mind it , and it gives me peace of mind.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

There are other ways. How you do it depends on why the dog is pulling. Does the dog always pull or is there a specific reason like another dog or place they want to get to? A slip may work. Using other methods that don’t add an adversive of some sort usually take more time and consistency, especially if the habit is already there. This is something you should consult your trainer about since you are already working together.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

I am starting with a plain martingale for now. Frankie is getting really strong and we have just been able to get into a class. He had Giardia so we had to keep to our property for weeks, not conducive to walking on a leash. Fingers crossed I won't need to use a prong. But when he's older (only 5 months now) I wouldn't hesitate. Personally I think a prong is safer than a slip collar, aka choke chain.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

English slip leads are popular if you can become skilled at using it. I never planned to use a prong but I took a strong dog to a class and the instructor told us to leave until I bought one. She trained K9s and it was the difference between getting pulled around and having total control over a situation. That was my first purebred German Shepherd. I use them with some dogs and never needed one with others. It depends on the dog, on your training abilities, your strength and size. If you can train loose lead walking and recall early enough, you will never need one but if your dog learns to tolerate pulling on a collar it’s nearly impossible to train them out of it.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

They say prong collars are like "power-steering" for dogs, lol.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

LuvShepherds said:


> English slip leads are popular if you can become skilled at using it.


That's the thing. I never felt like I "got it." I was always afraid of hurting my dogs' necks. I'm more comfortable using a prong if I need something a little "extra."


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I got Apex as a pup used the prong during adolescence for some control. It worked minimally. I didn't know how to use it effectively. Brought it back out after learning how to use it about 4 months ago. @Rudolph-Rainn


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

It sometimes helps to use the term pinch collar rather than prong. There are no "prongs, they're blunt and they pinch.
But they're prong collars ....


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

Rudolph-Rainn said:


> Also, I’d note you’re UK based like me and my dog,
> 
> I’m guessing you’ve received negative attention for the prong?
> 
> ...


yes we have recieved a lot of negative attention and I also feel the need to explain myself to EVERYONE 🤦‍♀️ As I’m sure you know as well GSD’s over in the uk get the negative attention anyway just because of their breed. Our country is full of so many judgy people! (We are in Dorset btw)
If I didn’t receive that attention i would be happy using it. 
I love the point you made before about her age, hopefully in another 6 months by the time I want to take her out on the trails with the harness she will begin making better decisions…. If not we will just keep waiting for that wonderful adult age to arrive 😂


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

WNGD said:


> It sometimes helps to use the term pinch collar rather than prong. There are no "prongs, they're blunt and they pinch.
> But they're prong collars ....


Pinch definitely sounds better!


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> English slip leads are popular if you can become skilled at using it. I never planned to use a prong but I took a strong dog to a class and the instructor told us to leave until I bought one. She trained K9s and it was the difference between getting pulled around and having total control over a situation. That was my first purebred German Shepherd. I use them with some dogs and never needed one with others. It depends on the dog, on your training abilities, your strength and size. If you can train loose lead walking and recall early enough, you will never need one but if your dog learns to tolerate pulling on a collar it’s nearly impossible to train them out of it.


We tried slip on her but even the dog trainer agreed it wasn’t right for her. We also tried halti, and bridle but even with de sensitisation anything over her nose drives her crazy!!


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> English slip leads are popular if you can become skilled at using it. I never planned to use a prong but I took a strong dog to a class and the instructor told us to leave until I bought one. She trained K9s and it was the difference between getting pulled around and having total control over a situation. That was my first purebred German Shepherd. I use them with some dogs and never needed one with others. It depends on the dog, on your training abilities, your strength and size. If you can train loose lead walking and recall early enough, you will never need one but if your dog learns to tolerate pulling on a collar it’s nearly impossible to train them out of it.


We started loose lead training and heal training at 8 weeks and then any spare moment we had from that point. We also did it along side weekly obedience classes. She did loose lead walk consistently for about a month…. But then her first season came (at 8 month) 
After that everything we ever taught her went out the window so we had to start from scratch and she also became super reactive. From 8 months she still hasn’t been allowed off her drag line either as recall is another thing that totall disappeared 🤪

This pup is definitely throwing me some curve balls compared to my previous dogs 😂


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> What is the dog like to train? Adolescence is difficult. Has she really had a strong correction? How long can she walk in heel? How long do you need her to? How outrageous are the reactions?
> 
> Edit- I have a 5 year old I don't really trust without the prong. I'm just getting there


She is super eager to please and loves to learn new things… she especially enjoys learning new tricks.
Her mind is constantly active, but her prey drive is super high… even noted by our trainer. 
She is great with everything inside the boundaries of our home. If using the prong she walks beautifully (only need to hold the lead with two fingers!), she listens to commands really well (sit, wait, leave etc).

I think I’m answering my own question in this comment… why would I change the prong if it’s working so well?! I think my dream goal was so have my dog walk to heal with 100% trust like my old dog. I’m probably just fighting my own issues 🤦‍♀️

If I took her off the prong and used a slip or any other lead I get dragged for the whole walk, she growls and lunges as other dogs to the point I loose my balance.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

Stick with the prong. It is working. You are able to have a compliant dog as you say you "only need to hold the lead with two fingers". You, and she, are going through a tumultuous period in her life....adolescence, where the hormones are starting to kick in and the mind disengages, and a heat cycle, same. Evidently this roller coaster goes on until full maturity kicks in. (Our pup is almost 6 months and we are already in to the "What???" stage over behaviors she normally is rock solid at.)
When we went to a prong, as Ilita was a puller extraordinaire, it was the virtual night and day. And, yes, she has experienced strong corrections, an unfortunate necessity at times. We went with the Keeper Collar from Leerburg because 1) you don't have to have two collars, unlike the normal prong which can break, the 'keeper' is a fabric and leather overlay to the prongs so it cannot fall apart and 2) nice and discrete, it looks like a regular collar when on. 

Leerburg | Keeper Collars


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

There are covers made to hide a prong collar, I've not tried one myself as we've not had anybody hassle us. There are prong collars built into others, saw this one the other day.

Covert Pinch Collars


Edit: just saw SMcN posted the same kind of collar.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@Summer86 keep it up stay consistent she will mature into a fine dog with good habits. 
By using the prong properly you are keeping her in a good head space by correcting the bad behavior. It's clear to the dog and it's working don't rush the process. More control with come in time with clarity, consistency, relationship and maturity. Keep getting her out to see the world. Take what she has learned at home generalize it in other places.

Prong is a really useful tool when used properly that many dogs need. 

It's just the kind of dog she is. Some people can't understand when they have never had a dog who needed the tool.


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

Thank you so much everyone 😍 I’ve had such positive feedback from all of you and it has helped me so much!! What a lovely bunch you all are ❤ 🐕


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Summer86 said:


> Hi all,
> We are currently using a prong collar for my 12 month girl under supervision of a dog trainer.
> we tried CONSISTENT lead training with her for her first 8 months on just a collar and lead, but I obviously went wrong somewhere as we needed to start trying other collars to get her to walk to heal…. Finally 4 months after changing up with different leads the prong is working great.
> 
> ...


I used a gentle leader - head collar - halti. Brilliant peace of equipment IMO. It helped with redirecting him as you can turn his head in the direction you want him to go just by a gentle pull. It also stopped pulling. He's improved so much I don't need to use it anymore he's on a flat collar.

It did take time for him to get used to wearing it and he did try to remove it in the beginning but I never gave up with it and he soon excepted it with loads of positive association using treats and giving him his favourite toy - a ball. He also has high drive.

If you think about how a horse which is far larger and more powerful than a dog is lead around by just a head collar and lead rope then you can understand just how affective this method is with the bonus of being painless unlike the prong.

If you do decide to try one just make sure you get one which fits properly and has a safety clip. The one used also had some padding one the nose band.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Catgsd said:


> I used a gentle leader - head collar - halti. Brilliant peace of equipment IMO. It helped with redirecting him as you can turn his head in the direction you want him to go just by a gentle pull. It also stopped pulling. He's improved so much I don't need to use it anymore he's on a flat collar.
> 
> It did take time for him to get used to wearing it and he did try to remove it in the beginning but I never gave up with it and he soon excepted it with loads of positive association using treats and giving him his favourite toy - a ball. He also has high drive.
> 
> ...


I understand the comparison but no horse I've ever had displayed prey drive to chase rabbits or deer ......not even the barn cats


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Catgsd said:


> I used a gentle leader - head collar - halti. Brilliant peace of equipment IMO. It helped with redirecting him as you can turn his head in the direction you want him to go just by a gentle pull. It also stopped pulling. He's improved so much I don't need to use it anymore he's on a flat collar.
> 
> It did take time for him to get used to wearing it and he did try to remove it in the beginning but I never gave up with it and he soon excepted it with loads of positive association using treats and giving him his favourite toy - a ball. He also has high drive.
> 
> ...


opinions very, mine is: When used correctly and not abused a prong collar is not painful. A dog that is in full drive can hit the end of the line and teak or injure its neck with a halti / gentle lead. A horse cannot go from a dead stop to full speed drive in 3ft, a fit athletic GSD can. Now add in all the people using flexi leads that allow the dog 10 to 14 feet of runway and the owner ends up face planted and dog with an injured neck.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> opinions very, mine is: When used correctly and not abused a prong collar is not painful. A dog that is in full drive can hit the end of the line and teak or injure its neck with a halti / gentle lead. A horse cannot go from a dead stop to full speed drive in 3ft, a fit athletic GSD can. Now add in all the people using flexi leads that allow the dog 10 to 14 feet of runway and the owner ends up face planted and dog with an injured neck.


Risks and Concerns | Training Collars: The Impact on the Welfare of Domestic Dogs 



And when prongs used incorrectly they can cause horrific injury 💁‍♀️


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

WNGD said:


> I understand the comparison but no horse I've ever had displayed prey drive to chase rabbits or deer ......not even the barn cats


No but they have a high tendency for fight or flight and the disire to run for your life is much stronger than catching a rabbit


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## perrymel (Oct 28, 2021)

Summer86 said:


> She is super eager to please and loves to learn new things… she especially enjoys learning new tricks.
> Her mind is constantly active, but her prey drive is super high… even noted by our trainer.
> She is great with everything inside the boundaries of our home. If using the prong she walks beautifully (only need to hold the lead with two fingers!), she listens to commands really well (sit, wait, leave etc).
> 
> ...


You can buy a cover for the prong?pinch collar on ebay or amazon !! then it looks just like a normal collar  works well for us!


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## perrymel (Oct 28, 2021)

perrymel said:


> You can buy a cover for the prong?pinch collar on ebay or amazon !! then it looks just like a normal collar  works well for us!


oops, didn't read all the posts and seen someone else already suggested the cover


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## finn'smom (Oct 4, 2019)

That's my covert prong, was ordered with the cover! Mostly I just use a regular prong with a safety strap to the flat collar but have that if for some reason I don't want it to be obvious!


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Catgsd said:


> Risks and Concerns | Training Collars: The Impact on the Welfare of Domestic Dogs
> 
> 
> 
> And when prongs used incorrectly they can cause horrific injury 💁‍♀️


Injuries like that are from leaving it on 24/7 and then having the dog tied out for a very long time. They don't result from putting it on going for walk or training session and taking it off. 

An animal pulling away and activity fighting a lead using their neck muscles has nowhere near the potential for harm as an unexpected sudden sharp pull to the side and back while the full force of their body and it's kentic energy is still moving forward. 

When my girl lunges or jumps a quick snap of leash brings her back under control while my arm acts as shock absorber, there is no sudden full force stop or cranking of the neck. 

Like I said difference of opinion, everybody should do their research and pick what works best for the dog in front of you.


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> Risks and Concerns | Training Collars: The Impact on the Welfare of Domestic Dogs
> 
> 
> 
> And when prongs used incorrectly they can cause horrific injury 💁‍♀️


My guy did not get along with a gentle leader at all. Despite proper introduction etc.

There’s plenty of different tools because all dogs are different. It’s not one size fits all.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

If you show you can also just make a fabric cover to slip the prong collar into - just sew a simple tube of fabric. I used to have a few. I haven't used a prong collar in 20 years. I may have to for my new guy. No idea where I stored that thing.....


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

That was supposed to say "sew" not "show."


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> Risks and Concerns | Training Collars: The Impact on the Welfare of Domestic Dogs
> 
> 
> 
> And when prongs used incorrectly they can cause horrific injury 💁‍♀️


That article is heavily biased and those injuries are extreme.

There is no doubt people abuse dogs but it’s anecdotal.

A good prong collar is blunt, on purpose.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Just in case it's not clear, if your dog is pulling at the end of the leash while wearing prong, you're not using it correctly. Get with a trainer to help learn the proper techniques.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

It's all about personal preferences and I was giving advice on what worked for me as the original question was they were looking for an alternative to the prong. 

Every dog is different some take to the head collars and learn not to pull or lung whilst wearing one. Some continue to pull against it some take to a correction from a prong some choke themselves out and cause damage.

Some people use the wrong lead with the wrong collars, harnesses etc. its human nature to make mistakes 

There is tons of evidence showing the damage training tools can cause especially prong and choke collars. 

I've personally witnessed this myself the damage a prong can do and it's wasn't on the dogs the whole time or the dog wasn't tided up either. I ended up rehoming this dog from the owner who was clueless.

Therefore it comes down to the owners ability do there research and learn how to use these tools correctly. 

Summer86 is doing the best job by employing a trainer and having him show her how to use these tools. Unfortunately not everyone does


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> It's all about personal preferences and I was giving advice on what worked for me as the original question was they were looking for an alternative to the prong.
> 
> Every dog is different some take to the head collars and learn not to pull or lung whilst wearing one. Some continue to pull against it some take to a correction from a prong some choke themselves out and cause damage.
> 
> ...


It’s great you’ve rescued a dog from an abusive owner!


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Rudolph-Rainn said:


> It’s great you’ve rescued a dog from an abusive owner!


The sad thing is he wasn't deliberately being abusive just extremely naive. 

Unfortunately he was the main reason the for the dogs behaviours due to having no experience with dogs at all and the dog being a gsd rottie cross. This happened before the internet therefore he had limited places to go for advice and the advice he was getting was questionable to say the least. 

Sam was the dog's name with the correct training he turned into a wonderful balanced take anywhere dog. 

I still miss him.


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Unfortunately, any type of collar can cause an injury if used improperly. The picture of the dog with prong collar holes in its neck, has been circulating the net for a while. That poor dog has clearly had the collar left on for a very long time, resulting in the neck growing into the collar.

Prong collars are only used as a training aid, they are never to be left on a dog all day. As the dog grows, so does the neck, and like all collars, you adjust the size up.

The prongs are rounded and blunt, the mechanical action grips the neck in a pinch like action, it does not pierce the skin of the neck. Granted, there are cheap versions out there but a good company like Herm Sprenger produce quality prong collars with rounded prongs.

Head halters can be seen as an unnatural tool to get the dog to comply, they are designed for horses not for dogs. Unlike horses, dogs have sensitive nerve endings around the muzzle, that is why they will often roll around and paw at the head collar and try and remove it.

If a dog was to jolt, the head collar can cause injuries to the dog's neck because of the way the head collar is designed, it pulls the head towards you, whilst the rest of the body is facing forward. Think how painful it is when you suddenly turn your head, and you pull a neck muscle.

Now, if used correctly, the head collar can be a great training tool for some dogs, as can any training collar, including the prong/pinch collar.

The problem is not the tool but the person using it.

A good training collar, is only as good as the person using it and one that gets results, without causing injury to the dog.



Sent from my X2 using Tapatalk


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> The sad thing is he wasn't deliberately being abusive just extremely naive.
> 
> Unfortunately he was the main reason the for the dogs behaviours due to having no experience with dogs at all and the dog being a gsd rottie cross. This happened before the internet therefore he had limited places to go for advice and the advice he was getting was questionable to say the least.
> 
> ...


Well Sam got lucky in the end!
But remember his story is anecdotal:

A person used a tool without having a clue how to use it on a dog that they didn’t understand. With bad results.

There is a huge variety of reasons why people fail their dogs; lack of understanding of a tool is just one.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

I'm not getting into a debate regarding which are the best tools. 

I was simply answering the question of what is an alternative to the prong and the reason the question was asked is because the owner didn't want to use the prong because of the stigma associated as there known to cause pain and damage more than a flat collar or a harness or a head collar when used incorrectly hence why there are covers for them to hide the fact the dogs wearing one. 

This is a fact.

like I said it's totally down to the person's prefence which one they prefer. 
And am not judging anyone who uses one or wishes to use one. As it's been said many times in this post. ALL training aids can cause damage whether physical or mental when used incorrectly and can be a god send when used in the way they were designed.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

Slips make me cringe.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Gwyllgi said:


> Unfortunately, any type of collar can cause an injury if used improperly. The picture of the dog with prong collar holes in its neck, has been circulating the net for a while. That poor dog has clearly had the collar left on for a very long time, resulting in the neck growing into the collar.
> 
> Prong collars are only used as a training aid, they are never to be left on a dog all day. As the dog grows, so does the neck, and like all collars, you adjust the size up.
> 
> ...


Would you mind sharing with me where have you researched dogs muzzles being more sensitive than a horse's? 

Not a criticism just generally interested.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Apex1 said:


> Slips make me cringe.


Keep one around to use on loose runaways that come our way.


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## markdog (Dec 8, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> I was simply answering the question of what is an alternative to the prong and the reason the question was asked is because the owner didn't want to use the prong because of the stigma associated* as there known to cause pain and damage more than a flat collar or a harness or a head collar when used incorrectly* hence why there are covers for them to hide the fact the dogs wearing one.
> 
> This is a fact.


This is a fact ??


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

markdog said:


> This is a fact ??


Perception is reality LOL!


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

markdog said:


> This is a fact ??











Why Prong Collars Hurt - eileenanddogs


The plain mathematical facts about prong collars compared to flat collars.




eileenanddogs.com


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## markdog (Dec 8, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> Why Prong Collars Hurt - eileenanddogs
> 
> 
> The plain mathematical facts about prong collars compared to flat collars.
> ...


Who is Eileen? A pet dog owner whose owned three dogs lol.

Try looking for better sources of information because you're both wrong.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

markdog said:


> Who is Eileen? A pet dog owner whose owned three dogs lol.
> 
> Try looking for better sources of information because you're both wrong.


Same to you. end of discussion.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Catgsd said:


> No but they have a high tendency for fight or flight and the disire to run for your life is much stronger than catching a rabbit


Horse and dog head and neck anatomy are different. I am not a fan of halti/head collars. The premise is fine, but the reality of how they work with dog bodies is not IMHO.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@markdog different opinions are welcomed. It's not necessary to be argumentative or hostile while expressing your perspective.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Rosebud99 said:


> Horse and dog head and neck anatomy are different. I am not a fan of halti/head collars. The premise is fine, but the reality of how they work with dog bodies is not IMHO.


The reason I asked is I have limited experience with horses but the ones I rode or was around always seemed to be sensitive around the the muzzle and most loved to be scratched and petted there. It would make them relaxed and some would seems as if to go to sleep. So was just curious and looking for more insight.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Catgsd said:


> I used a gentle leader - head collar - halti. Brilliant peace of equipment IMO. It helped with redirecting him as you can turn his head in the direction you want him to go just by a gentle pull. It also stopped pulling. He's improved so much I don't need to use it anymore he's on a flat collar.


My dogs wear martingale collars, but when they were young and even now during times that they can be easily distracted (like going to the vet) I use a Gentle Leader. I haven't found the halti to be an effective training tool; there is no substitute for teaching the dog to focus on you during loose leash walking. But the halti does work to stop the dog from pulling until such time as loose leash skills can be established. I used a lot of treats and eye contact training to teach loose leash. I also found that teaching them to heel off leash helped a lot with loose leash walking. As for the Gentle Leader, I think it works by distracting the dog. Neither of my pups like the halti but they will tolerate it. If they have it on, I find they behave better and focus less on outside distractions, even if the leash is hooked to the martingale collar. 
I would definitely prefer a prong over a slip collar. My first shepherd had a neck disc problem that I think was from my incorrect use of the slip.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> Why Prong Collars Hurt - eileenanddogs
> 
> 
> The plain mathematical facts about prong collars compared to flat collars.
> ...


Yikes the math on that is cringe. I'm not sure why they would do the calculations in a vacuum that is assuming the force is distributed equally across the flat collar. They even admit at the end that they have no idea what went wrong with the math, I would not trust that source at all. A flat collar does not apply force all the way around when a dog is pulling or if you pop them. It is concentrated on one general area. If a dog is pulling forward, most of the pressure will be put on the front... Seems to be a huge error on her part.

But even with corrections, she proved herself wrong ironically. They insist prongs are painful because they put all the force on one point. But it's clearly not like that because she even said her prong collar had 18 points. She basically flipped the concept. Flat collars distribute at one point and prongs distribute it at multiple points aka on the prongs...

Unfortunately, none of these arguments hold up because it is based on the premise of the owners using the prongs incorrectly anyways. I understand your point but I would look into reputable sources instead of someone who even admits their calculations are off...


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## w1ll (9 mo ago)

I personally have a prong on my dog as he’s reactive to other dogs and it works great depending on who’s walking him. He’s almost a year and 90 pounds. With me I give him freedom when we walk with a 6 foot leash and if i see another dog or people I can instantly call him into a heel. With my mom it’s a whole different story he will pull and drag her and has made her fall before lunging at another dog with the prong on. She is a lot smaller than me and he knows he can pull and bully her on the leash without that hard of a correction. It also depends on your training as i’ve trained him since we got him and he’s great with me but not so much other people even though they take care of him on a daily basis. I think if you want them to listen to you in their teenage part of their life you need some sort of correction as with my dog it was night and day with a prong vs a harness or some sorts and treats. just my 2 cents looking forward to seeing more opinions


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## perrymel (Oct 28, 2021)

I am very much enjoying this thread !! , and value everyone's point of view even if I disagree. We have used a flat collar, a Halti, a front clip harness, a back clip harness. We have used a chain leash ( we were using nylon, but the dog kept chewing it) this was when he was a younger pup, now we are back to nylon and he walks fine and doesn't chew it. But back to topic, we use a prong collar for total control of our dog. Yes we have had training, and as I said in a earlier post, I was against the prong until I was taught how to use it properly. We have had many trainers, one that hated harnesses and made us remove it for her classes and use the flat collar. We have learned sooooo much from all the different trainers, and have taken away from each class the things that work for us. We are always open to learn, we are first time GS owners and want as much advice as we can get, but of course will use what works for our dog. As other posters have said, use what works for you and your dog, every situation is different. I would NEVER do anything to harm my dog, and if I believed the prong collar was hurting him I wouldn't use it. Our dog looks forward to our walks and training and that is the only time we use the prong. We also have a bark collar and a e collar lol, but the only collar that stays on him 24/7 is the flat collar with his ID on it. I will use which ever tools give us success in training our boy  Gabriel is 14 months old, so a teenager, things are going well, I get nervous when I read how they can turn into little brats at this age, but we stay on top of his manners and training and so far so good. I am so happy that I found this forum and have the chance to learn from all the posters on here, thank you all !!!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Catgsd said:


> If you think about how a horse which is far larger and more powerful than a dog is lead around by just a head collar and lead rope then you can understand just how affective this method is with the bonus of being painless unlike the prong.


This is factually incorrect. A head halter is not painless. I think a simple understanding of why the dog is forced to follow you with minimum force should tell you it’s not painless. It’s an adversive tool.


Catgsd said:


> I was simply answering the question of what is an alternative to the prong and the reason the question was asked is because the owner didn't want to use the prong because of the stigma associated as there known to cause pain and damage more than a flat collar or a harness or a head collar when used incorrectly hence why there are covers for them to hide the fact the dogs wearing one.
> 
> This is a fact.


This is not a fact. Of all the tools you’ve listed, the “head collar” has the potential to cause the most damage both when used intentionally incorrectly and when deliberately used for abuse. You can use the tool you want. I just believe you are trafficking biased opinions or blatantly incorrect statements as facts.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Catgsd said:


> If you think about how a horse which is far larger and more powerful than a dog is lead around by just a head collar and lead rope then you can understand just how affective this method is with the bonus of being painless unlike the prong.


Really? Ever heard of a stud chain? As a horsewoman I can tell you that not all horses walk nicely with just a halter and lead. I can also tell you that the nerves and blood vessels present in a dogs muzzle are not present to anywhere near the same extent on a horse. And I can point out that a horse has a longer neck that is much more flexible then a dogs. Last I will point out that a horse weighs much more then a dog and a human isn't capable of stopping a horse with the same force as stopping a dog.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> This is factually incorrect. A head halter is not painless. I think a simple understanding of why the dog is forced to follow you with minimum force should tell you it’s not painless. It’s an adversive tool.
> 
> This is not a fact. Of all the tools you’ve listed, the “head collar” has the potential to cause the most damage both when used intentionally incorrectly and when deliberately used for abuse. You can use the tool you want. I just believe you are trafficking biased opinions or blatantly incorrect statements as facts.


I am not trafficking bias I am going on what research I have available to me and the experience Ive had with prongs and the many people who have used them. The fact that you say head collars have the potential to cause most damage and cause pain where is the evidence to support this? Reg prongs which are banned in some countries and the fact that studies have been carried out and there is evidence to support this doesn't make me bais.

I've never had the need to used a prong with my current dog he is the only dog I've owned who was extremely reactive where the flat collar was useless. Hence why I tried the head collar and it worked.

Like I've said more than once now it's person preference. If your having success with the prong them great by all means carry on. As I know first hand how difficult it can be to control a extremely reactive adolescent dog.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Really? Ever heard of a stud chain? As a horsewoman I can tell you that not all horses walk nicely with just a halter and lead. I can also tell you that the nerves and blood vessels present in a dogs muzzle are not present to anywhere near the same extent on a horse. And I can point out that a horse has a longer neck that is much more flexible then a dogs. Last I will point out that a horse weighs much more then a dog and a human isn't capable of stopping a horse with the same force as stopping a dog.





Sabis mom said:


> Really? Ever heard of a stud chain? As a horsewoman I can tell you that not all horses walk nicely with just a halter and lead. I can also tell you that the nerves and blood vessels present in a dogs muzzle are not present to anywhere near the same extent on a horse. And I can point out that a horse has a longer neck that is much more flexible then a dogs. Last I will point out that a horse weighs much more then a dog and a human isn't capable of stopping a horse with the same force as stopping a dog.


No sorry never heard of a stud chain. And I was referring to the principal of being lead by around the head as to around the neck.


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

Catgsd said:


> It's all about personal preferences and I was giving advice on what worked for me as the original question was they were looking for an alternative to the prong.
> 
> Every dog is different some take to the head collars and learn not to pull or lung whilst wearing one. Some continue to pull against it some take to a correction from a prong some choke themselves out and cause damage.
> 
> ...


thank you. I absolutely wouldn’t have headed out and got one without proper (and on going) guidance.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Catgsd said:


> I am not trafficking bias I am going on what research I have available to me and the experience Ive had with prongs and the many people who have used them. The fact that you say head collars have the potential to cause most damage and cause pain where is the evidence to support this? Reg prongs which are banned in some countries and the fact that studies have been carried out and there is evidence to support this doesn't make me bais.
> 
> I've never had the need to used a prong and my current dog is the only dog who was extremely reactive where the flat collar was useless. Hence why I tried the head collar and it worked.
> 
> Like I've said more than once now it's person preference. If your having success with the prong them great by all means carry on. As I know first hand how difficult it can be to control a extremely reactive adolescent dog.







__





Head Halter Training for Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital


Head halters are commonly used as an alternative to neck control collars and have many advantages. Firstly, they make control easier, requiring less physical effort, so you don't end up battling with your pet or trying to save your shoulders from being pulled out of their sockets when going for...




vcahospitals.com




Here is an article describing the use of a head halter. Notice it is said that the halter “applies pressure” and that it is described as “negative reinforcement.” Negative reinforcement is typically removing an adversive stimuli from the dog when the desired behavior is achieved to encourage that behavior. In this case it’s the pressure from the head halter. While pressure can be different things in different contexts, it is pain here. Head halters are noted to be capable of causing neck injuries when used incorrectly. I’m not telling anybody you what you should or shouldn’t use, just pointing out some misconceptions you’ve stated.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Hopps said:


> Yikes the math on that is cringe. I'm not sure why they would do the calculations in a vacuum that is assuming the force is distributed equally across the flat collar. They even admit at the end that they have no idea what went wrong with the math, I would not trust that source at all. A flat collar does not apply force all the way around when a dog is pulling or if you pop them. It is concentrated on one general area. If a dog is pulling forward, most of the pressure will be put on the front... Seems to be a huge error on her part.
> 
> But even with corrections, she proved herself wrong ironically. They insist prongs are painful because they put all the force on one point. But it's clearly not like that because she even said her prong collar had 18 points. She basically flipped the concept. Flat collars distribute at one point and prongs distribute it at multiple points aka on the prongs...
> 
> Unfortunately, none of these arguments hold up because it is based on the premise of the owners using the prongs incorrectly anyways. I understand your point but I would look into reputable sources instead of someone who even admits their calculations are off...





Hopps said:


> Yikes the math on that is cringe. I'm not sure why they would do the calculations in a vacuum that is assuming the force is distributed equally across the flat collar. They even admit at the end that they have no idea what went wrong with the math, I would not trust that source at all. A flat collar does not apply force all the way around when a dog is pulling or if you pop them. It is concentrated on one general area. If a dog is pulling forward, most of the pressure will be put on the front... Seems to be a huge error on her part.
> 
> But even with corrections, she proved herself wrong ironically. They insist prongs are painful because they put all the force on one point. But it's clearly not like that because she even said her prong collar had 18 points. She basically flipped the concept. Flat collars distribute at one point and prongs distribute it at multiple points aka on the prongs...
> 
> Unfortunately, none of these arguments hold up because it is based on the premise of the owners using the prongs incorrectly anyways. I understand your point but I would look into reputable sources instead of someone who even admits their calculations are off...





Bearshandler said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Bearshandler said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeh like you say pressure can mean certain things and I've never seen my dog react as if he was in pain when using the head collar. The unnatrual pressure around his muzzle made him turn his head with just light pressure. But then dogs can't talk or tell us there in pain and most hide it.
And like you said it's one article! When there are tons of articles regarding the use of the prong and this is for good reason.
We could go round in circles all day as everyone has there own opinons in what's right and what not given there experiences therefore I see no point on continuing to reply to this thread.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

This thread has taken an interesting turn and, perhaps, one that is pointing out a problematical trend. Quoting research.

It is easy to read an article or paper and believe that since it is "published" it is, therefore, viable. But anybody can get anything published. In lectures I have given, I point out when you read a paper, you need to read the entire paper. Not just the abstract and discussion or conclusion but the methods and materials as well. 

I have read papers where the conclusion stated their findings that was not supported by their research AT ALL within the paper. They were stating a predetermined conclusion that supported their hypothesis, trusting that the reader would not read the entire paper. I read one paper that quoted another using it to prove their hypothesis. But I had just read the quoted paper and it did NOT come to the conclusion claimed by the second paper. You also have to check citations. It is not uncommon for a citation to be made that has little relevance to the cited statement.

Bias is rampant in research where the study is designed to prove the hypothesis rather than a truly objective effort to determine if the hypothesis has merit or not. This is all-to-common across disciplines. 

The internet has allowed anybody to publish whatever they want, no matter how unskilled, uninformed they may be on the topic. Just watch YouTube videos on people espousing their views on whatever topic you pick with virtually no expertise or long-term knowledge. 

It is definitely a "buyer beware" world, now more than ever. It is all to easy to read or see something that supports what you want to believe rather than staying objective and evaluating just what it is they are actually saying.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

SMcN said:


> This thread has taken an interesting turn and, perhaps, one that is pointing out a problematical trend. Quoting research.
> 
> It is easy to read an article or paper and believe that since it is "published" it is, therefore, viable. But anybody can get anything published. In lectures I have given, I point out when you read a paper, you need to read the entire paper. Not just the abstract and discussion or conclusion but the methods and materials as well.
> 
> ...


A very well written and relevant post.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

SMcN said:


> It is all to easy to read or see something that supports what you want to believe rather than staying objective and evaluating just what it is they are actually saying.


I can't recall the exact quote, but it was basically how people will cling to a concept that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be false.They refuse to entertain they were misled and never learn anything new.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> I can't recall the exact quote, but it was basically how people will cling to a concept that can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be false.They refuse to entertain they were misled and never learn anything new.


My dad used to say "My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with the facts", he also said "I study the issues, and each candidates position and records, I then vote a straight party ticket"


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)




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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> My dad used to say "My mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with the facts", he also said "I study the issues, and each candidates position and records, I then vote a straight party ticket"


My dad used to quote the "don't confuse me with facts" statement as well as "Figures don't lie, but liars do figure." And then there is Mark Twain's famous saying "There are lies, **** lies and then there are statistics." All satirical, if that is the correct term, but all too true.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Catgsd said:


> No sorry never heard of a stud chain. And I was referring to the principal of being lead by around the head as to around the neck.


I don't even know what this means. The head of most animals is connected to the neck.



















Two relatively normal stud chains. Used on tons of horses, not just studs. I worked a filly that would take your head off at any opportunity. She was always on one. You do know that most horses start halter training at a few days old?


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> I don't even know what this means. The head of most animals is connected to the neck.
> View attachment 586353
> 
> 
> ...


No I've never seen a foul been introduced to a halter at a few days old. The only experience I had with a foul being introduced was a little older and I never witnessed the whole process. And the horses I have been around have never used a stud chain only flat head collars but these horses were considered bomb proof and had a wonderful relationship with the owner and there handlers


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Catgsd said:


> No I've never seen a foul been introduced to a halter at a few days old. The only experience I had with a foul being introduced was a little older and I never witnessed the whole process. And the horses I have been around have never used a stud chain only flat head collars but these horses were considered bomb proof and had a wonderful relationship with the owner and there handlers


Right. So to get to bomb proof requires training, just like with dogs. I can promise you that over the course of my many years I have seen some seriously aversive training employed on horses. In fact the trainers that created the term "bomb proof" generationally were for the most part down right abusive. A "bomb proof" horse was a horse so traumatized it was essentially shut down.
Back to dogs, I have seen some truly abusive training using completely innocuous equipment. Head collars are a good choice for some situations, most of which they are never used for, but as to being gentle and kind? Not so much.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The truth is that if the introduction of any piece of equipment changes the behavior of the dog in a negative manner, according to the dog, it is aversive. The piece of equipment is irrelevant to the conversation when it comes to the dog, other than potential injuries. If your focus is on how the dog perceives the equipment, and not the equipment itself, it makes it easier to see things from the point of view of the dog. 

Before you believe an internet article, I suggest you do some research on whomever produced that article and where they got their information. There are a lot of articles rooted in an emotional opinion and not facts.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Ah ok which does make sense. Its interesting regarding the term bomb proof as I've heard this many times to describe a horse's nature - being totally unfazed by anything from the day they were born. Therefore always associated this term with the nature of the animal and not just training. Thank you for a more insightful explanation.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Catgsd said:


> Ah ok which does make sense. Its interesting regarding the term bomb proof as I've heard this many times to describe a horse's nature - being totally unfazed by anything from the day they were born. Therefore always associated this term with the nature of the animal and not just training. Thank you for a more insightful explanation.


Given where you live, a cob has a much different disposition then the average warmblood, it's like comparing a GSD to a lap dog. Also since you are clearly a novice, horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. There are different motivators there and breeding either to not possess those instincts is an affront to nature.


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Given where you live, a cob has a much different disposition then the average warmblood, it's like comparing a GSD to a lap dog. Also since you are clearly a novice, horses are prey animals and dogs are predators. There are different motivators there and breeding either to not possess those instincts is an affront to nature.


There is no need to be insulting I know fine well the difference. Even the so called experts are limited by what they have studied and the experiences they share.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

If you want to control your crazy GSD or horse .... I'm thinking of trying this


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## Catgsd (Oct 15, 2021)




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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Rudolph-Rainn said:


> My guy did not get along with a gentle leader at all. Despite proper introduction etc.
> 
> There’s plenty of different tools because all dogs are different. It’s not one size fits all.


We were trained in using a Halti and it seemed to work, so I tried it on a walk. My dog nearly broke her neck trying to escape it. She likes to scan everything and look behind her when we walk. She couldn’t look anywhere but straight ahead and could not handle it. I took it off immediately.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Catgsd said:


> I am not trafficking bias I am going on what research I have available to me and the experience Ive had with prongs and the many people who have used them. The fact that you say head collars have the potential to cause most damage and cause pain where is the evidence to support this? Reg prongs which are banned in some countries and the fact that studies have been carried out and there is evidence to support this doesn't make me bais.
> 
> I've never had the need to used a prong with my current dog he is the only dog I've owned who was extremely reactive where the flat collar was useless. Hence why I tried the head collar and it worked.
> 
> Like I've said more than once now it's person preference. If your having success with the prong them great by all means carry on. As I know first hand how difficult it can be to control a extremely reactive adolescent dog.


Prongs are banned because vocal and powerful people have an aversion to using metal on a dog. I have tried all of them over the years. Used correctly, prongs and e collars cause the least long term or serious damage. Professional trainers with a lot of high drive German Shepherd experience often recommend them if an owner is having difficulty controlling their dogs. Just because one person doesn’t like them doesn’t mean they are bad. It usually means that person isn’t adept at using one. Any collar can be useful if used well. Any collar can be dangerous if misused. Even a flat collar can choke a dog if the dog pulls hard enough. Following the least harm line of reasoning, the only solution would be to let a dog learn to walk without a collar or leash at all, which isn’t practical for most of us.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

1 or 2 properly timed corrections vs a lifetime of a dog freight training down the street and choking itself with a frustrated owner trailing behind frantically yelling "Sophie, heel, please HEEL!" ..... I've seen it a hundred times.

As someone above said, if your dog is pulling against the pinch collar, you're not using it right.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

WNGD said:


> 1 or 2 properly timed corrections vs a lifetime of a dog freight training down the street and choking itself with a frustrated owner trailing behind frantically yelling "Sophie, heel, please HEEL!" ..... I've seen it a hundred times.
> 
> As someone above said, if your dog is pulling against the pinch collar, you're not using it right.


I saw a lot of small dogs that pulled constantly on their flat collars. They ended up with tracheal collapse. Most of these owners would much rather keep their dogs on the humane pretty pink flat collars vs using a some sort of training collar to quickly remedy the issues. Watching all the cute and spunky small dogs cough like that was the saddest thing, not to mention the shortened lifespan.


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

WNGD said:


> 1 or 2 properly timed corrections vs a lifetime of a dog freight training down the street and choking itself with a frustrated owner trailing behind frantically yelling "Sophie, heel, please HEEL!" ..... I've seen it a hundred times.
> 
> As someone above said, if your dog is pulling against the pinch collar, you're not using it right.


Most objections to the prong collar I hear are from people who can’t control their dogs. 🤷


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## 504288 (Dec 19, 2021)

Hopps said:


> I saw a lot of small dogs that pulled constantly on their flat collars. They ended up with tracheal collapse. Most of these owners would much rather keep their dogs on the humane pretty pink flat collars vs using a some sort of training collar to quickly remedy the issues. Watching all the cute and spunky small dogs cough like that was the saddest thing, not to mention the shortened lifespan.


The problem with small dog owners I’ve found is that they can handle, and don’t mind the constant pulling, for years and years. Rather than try to fix an issue.

Unfortunately I’ve found that typically, the smaller the dog the less responsible the owner. Because a pulling, barking teacup terrier can do no harm; whereas if you have an out of control gsd then…


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Rudolph-Rainn said:


> The problem with small dog owners I’ve found is that they can handle, and don’t mind the constant pulling, for years and years. Rather than try to fix an issue.
> 
> Unfortunately I’ve found that typically, the smaller the dog the less responsible the owner. Because a pulling, barking teacup terrier can do no harm; whereas if you have an out of control gsd then…


It's absolutely insane how much they put up with their dogs. Unfortunately, my friend is one of those people, the positive thing was it made it super easy to cut her off! You are 100% right, they never see these things as a problem in the first place. They either find it amusing or they just don't seem to care at all... 

Disclaimer: We are talking about irresponsible small dog owners, not the lovely nice ones


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

In my whole life I've only ever known one "lovely nice one" when it came to an owner of a small dog that actually trained and took care of the dog(s). The other dogs were just allowed to do what they wanted or were kept in crates most of thier time and allowed out to go pee or when the owner felt like dealing with them for a short while.

I know they exist out there somewhere, but apparently not anywhere I've lived.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The lovely nice little dogs slip under the radar because they don't draw attention to themselves. They are more prolific than you think. Think about how many people are afraid of GSDs,Rotties, etc.Because they only notice the badly behaved ones.


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## Al Pozzolini (Aug 13, 2013)

Summer86 said:


> Hi all,
> We are currently using a prong collar for my 12 month girl under supervision of a dog trainer.
> we tried CONSISTENT lead training with her for her first 8 months on just a collar and lead, but I obviously went wrong somewhere as we needed to start trying other collars to get her to walk to heal…. Finally 4 months after changing up with different leads the prong is working great.
> 
> ...


On more than one occasion we've had trainers call and order batches of M1-K9 Collars for their clients. I guess because they are wide they like them to keep the prong collar right under the jaw where it's supposed to be to work the best. You can check em' out at M1-K9.com


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## Mango_the_shepherd (Dec 4, 2020)

Summer86 said:


> yes we have recieved a lot of negative attention and I also feel the need to explain myself to EVERYONE 🤦‍♀️ As I’m sure you know as well GSD’s over in the uk get the negative attention anyway just because of their breed. Our country is full of so many judgy people! (We are in Dorset btw)
> If I didn’t receive that attention i would be happy using it.
> I love the point you made before about her age, hopefully in another 6 months by the time I want to take her out on the trails with the harness she will begin making better decisions…. If not we will just keep waiting for that wonderful adult age to arrive 😂


We use a hidden prong collar, so it's hard for people to see if you are concerned about them: 1 Inch Webbing Mamba Collar Black Web with Black Leather and Chrome Hardware


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## Natalie S. (Feb 4, 2020)

When I rescued my shepherd husky mix (60lbs now), when she was 6 months old. She was terrible, and to be honest I hated walking her because she would constantly pull and I’m not even 5ft tall so it became a huge struggle. I’ve tried everything from prong collar (well fitted—and she still would basically choke herself), flat lead, martingale, slip lead, no pull harness and the ONLY thing that would mellow her out enough to have full control is using a head halter. I can not stress how life changing this has been for me. Every dog is different and might respond to other things differently especially when it comes to training.

Figuring out what tool works for you and your pup can be helpful along with supplemental things. Some are more treat, affection or toy motivated. Also, take your time and you might need to go back a few steps at times here and there, which is okay. Most importantly, make the training fun for you both. Yes it might be frustrating at times, but breaks are okay and the relationship between you guys should be one of trust and skies are the limit with the work put in. Best of luck!


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## Tstone (Dec 1, 2020)

Summer86 said:


> Hi all,
> We are currently using a prong collar for my 12 month girl under supervision of a dog trainer.
> we tried CONSISTENT lead training with her for her first 8 months on just a collar and lead, but I obviously went wrong somewhere as we needed to start trying other collars to get her to walk to heal…. Finally 4 months after changing up with different leads the prong is working great.
> 
> ...


We recently changed our trainer, and unknowingly still had her on a puppy pinch (prong) collar. Maybe check your collar and make sure it's the correct one. She had it for almost two years, and our other trainers didn't say a thing, and it wasn't working for her either. Our new trainer upgraded her to an adult pinch (prong) collar and it's made a world of difference. Also I recommend Herm Springer brand if it's not what your using. Plus other training methods were enacted. I also watch Tom Davis, No Bad Dogs on YouTube. He's got some amazing heeling videos and relies only on a slip leash.





 Here's the video, amazing advice on teaching a heel, or any behavior for that matter. Good luck!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Tstone said:


> We recently changed our trainer, and unknowingly still had her on a puppy pinch (prong) collar. Maybe check your collar and make sure it's the correct one. She had it for almost two years, and our other trainers didn't say a thing, and it wasn't working for her either. Our new trainer upgraded her to an adult pinch (prong) collar and it's made a world of difference. Also I recommend Herm Springer brand if it's not what your using. Plus other training methods were enacted. I also watch Tom Davis, No Bad Dogs on YouTube. He's got some amazing heeling videos and relies only on a slip leash.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would you mind explaining or linking to what a “puppy pinch collar” is? I’ve never heard that before. Are you maybe talking about a prong collar that has the smaller 2.25mm links?


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## Maxine222 (May 25, 2020)

Pytheis said:


> Would you mind explaining or linking to what a “puppy pinch collar” is? I’ve never heard that before. Are you maybe talking about a prong collar that has the smaller 2.25mm links?


Believe it or not The Gentle Leader WORKS!! I kid you not. Bought this leader years ago for a gsd I had long ago. Thew it in a draw cause I didn't give it a GOOD chance and gave up on it. Well my current gsd, Maxine, is HEAD STRONG. but a fantastic girl. Found the gentle leader I forgot I had and gave it another try. Almost gave up again cause she did not like it. Eventually she gave in cause walks are fun right? Well all I can say is, it's like power steering and allows me easily to redirect her without words or use of the prong collar. All I can say is USE THE GENTLE LEADER, AND DON'T GIVE UP ON TRAINING YOUR DOG ON IT. Have a new experience walking. Good luck. Also you don't have to use it all the time.


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

I used to use head collars way back when, and with training, they CAN work, yes, but I don't really care for them anymore myself. It takes time to get the dog used to wearing it, which most people seem to skip over and go right to the fighting and rearing like an angry shetland pony stage.

I have limited exposure to prong collars (haven't needed one yet) but from watching other trainers, it looks like they take less time to get used to and can be effective. I've3 only seen a dog rear against one once and it was an improper use, although I'm sure it's happened more than that one time.

No Pull harnesses rarely work, in my personal experience. They might work for a short time but the dogs always get used to them very quickly and go right back to their bad habits. Front clip harnesses are so awkward for me and I hate using those. They can be good to stop a sudden mad dash, but for walking and even training in general, they're not as user-friendly as advertised. At least not for me.

But, I always say, go with what works for you. What's worked for me (so far) probably wouldn't for most other people.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Maxine222 said:


> Believe it or not The Gentle Leader WORKS!! I kid you not. Bought this leader years ago for a gsd I had long ago. Thew it in a draw cause I didn't give it a GOOD chance and gave up on it. Well my current gsd, Maxine, is HEAD STRONG. but a fantastic girl. Found the gentle leader I forgot I had and gave it another try. Almost gave up again cause she did not like it. Eventually she gave in cause walks are fun right? Well all I can say is, it's like power steering and allows me easily to redirect her without words or use of the prong collar. All I can say is USE THE GENTLE LEADER, AND DON'T GIVE UP ON TRAINING YOUR DOG ON IT. Have a new experience walking. Good luck. Also you don't have to use it all the time.


I currently work as a trainer at a facility that straps head collars on almost every dog that walks through the door, including 8 week old puppies. I don’t agree with it, but I’m not the head trainer and it isn’t my choice. It’s up to the owners of the dogs to say yes or no. However, I will NEVER put a head collar of any kind on one of _my_ dogs. It’s a personal opinion. My dogs are all trained loose leash walking and heel on a flat collar and leash, no special tools needed.

You honestly come across as spam. You do nothing but sing high praises of a gentle leader and didn’t even answer my question, the one that you quoted. I’m not sure at all what a question about what a “puppy pinch collar” is had to do with gentle leaders.


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## Maxine222 (May 25, 2020)

Rabidwolfie said:


> I used to use head collars way back when, and with training, they CAN work, yes, but I don't really care for them anymore myself. It takes time to get the dog used to wearing it, which most people seem to skip over and go right to the fighting and rearing like an angry shetland pony stage.
> 
> I have limited exposure to prong collars (haven't needed one yet) but from watching other trainers, it looks like they take less time to get used to and can be effective. I've3 only seen a dog rear against one once and it was an improper use, although I'm sure it's happened more than that one time.
> 
> ...


Definitely go what works for dog and owner,. After all it's about a quality walk for the dog and trust of their owner, to provide that. As a result I don't have to use the GL as much. Seems like Maxine has learned how to follow my lead. But man, German Shepherds are fun and so smart. Yes they are like shetland ponies and react like that! lol


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## Summer86 (Aug 7, 2021)

Tstone said:


> We recently changed our trainer, and unknowingly still had her on a puppy pinch (prong) collar. Maybe check your collar and make sure it's the correct one. She had it for almost two years, and our other trainers didn't say a thing, and it wasn't working for her either. Our new trainer upgraded her to an adult pinch (prong) collar and it's made a world of difference. Also I recommend Herm Springer brand if it's not what your using. Plus other training methods were enacted. I also watch Tom Davis, No Bad Dogs on YouTube. He's got some amazing heeling videos and relies only on a slip leash.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We are using the Herm springer brand, thank you for linking the video too 🤩


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## Tstone (Dec 1, 2020)

Pytheis said:


> Would you mind explaining or linking to what a “puppy pinch collar” is? I’ve never heard that before. Are you maybe talking about a prong collar that has the smaller 2.25mm links?


I'm quoting our trainers use of the word - he called it a pinch collar, say it mimics Mom's corrective bites when they are puppies. So assuming the adult collar is referred to as a prong collar.? Yes her puppy one was smaller links.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Pinch collar is just a politically correct term for the same item as a prong collar. The newer ones don't have pointed ends and really do just pinch. Timing is the key


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## fkouretas (8 mo ago)

Prong collar for most reactive German Shepherds works like a charm. When fitted properly, you will get the results you want and on occasion when needed one good correction solves a problem for good. My initial "treat trainer" spent weeks trying to get me to properly walk my GSD and it never really worked out that well - not to mention that 8 months in he was still ankle biting on walks. Called my breeder who walked me through how to use the prong over the phone, all bad behaviour stopped, walks were amazing, the dog is not hurt and he respects and loves us tremendously. Before the prong he was treating us like litter mates when we were on our walks  As a first time dog owner who was adventurous enough to buy a high energy GSD, I could honestly say I might not have been able to handle him without it. Now, he is the nicest dog you can imagine withor without the prong collar.


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## happyblond (Sep 14, 2012)

Summer86, sounds like you are doing right by your dog if the prong is working for you I'd try and ignore the busy body people and keep going as you are, I myself use head collars for my two and I think they are ok mine are very desensitized to them but I'd really like to switch to prongs but finding an accessible trainer to teach me is proving difficult..
Good luck with your training I'm sure it will all work out for you whatever you decide on 😊


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## ODA564 (Jun 23, 2021)

504288 said:


> Also, I’d note you’re UK based like me and my dog,
> 
> I’m guessing you’ve received negative attention for the prong?
> 
> ...


Same in the US. People ass-u-me they are cruel (and a lot of people get them and don't use them properly because they never invest in training - heck, just watch some good videos on YouTube!

I see people with huge dogs struggling with gentle leaders (worthless) and harnesses (wrong tool) to try and control their beast as it pulls them hither and yon.


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