# Chronic Renal Failure in Senior



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Original thread
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/172341-senior-peeing-house.html#post2341535

Bloodwork today showed early stages of chronic renal failure. We are moving forward with getting her nasty infected teeth out today to get rid of that poison (and I'm sure that contributed to the CRF).

Diet - Raw diet. Doc suggested reducing protein. BUT..isn't the key to reduce phosphorus more than protein? Any input on this?

Fluid intake - anything special? just increased water? does she need added electrolytes?

Anything else to take out of her diet? Fatty items like pork?

Vege/Fruit to replace part of her meat portion - what ones? Again, is phosphorus a concern? What to keep carbs low due to possible mast cell tumor. So what foods are good and BALANCED?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

No knowledge on any of the diet questions...wish I could help. Just wanted to say sorry you are going through all of this with her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks. I think this is our fault. We didn't get her teeth done when she was 10 because she had a re-occurrence of growths that looked like the mast cell she had before. So we decided to let her be, thinking the mast cell cancer would take her long before now. Two years later, here we are and her teeth should have been taken out two years ago. We did this to her by making the wrong choice.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Any opinions on this info?

http://www.windyhollowvet.com/Document/info/ChronicRenalFailureDiet.pdf


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

I have a 20+ year old cat suffering with kidney disease. In my case the cat will only eat certain foods. Hills makes a special canned Kidney diet that is helping. When we started the subcutaneous fluids, the test results swung back to almost normal ranges. These are the things that were recommended to me. Good luck.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what I am sending you will provide the fats -- high in omega 3 and natural complex 4 tocopherols , 4 tocotrienol Vitamin E. Most vitamin E capsules are alpha tocopherol (for human use) . A complete Vitamin E would have alpha, beta , gamma (high interest in studies for anti cancer) and delta . A sample of some research just to whet your interest 
*Differences Between Alpha and Gamma Tocopherol*

Alpha tocopherol is the best known form of vitamin E and is found in the largest quantities in blood and tissue. It is critical, however, for anyone supplementing with vitamin E to make sure they are also getting adequate gamma tocopherol each day. 
The key benefit is gamma tocopherol’s ability to dramatically reduce inflammatory threats, a major cause of virtually all degenerative diseases. Current research supports the importance of gamma tocopherol in preventing numerous components of the degenerative diseases associated with aging.2,3 
Atherosclerosis
Although little known to the general public, gamma tocopherol is the form of vitamin E most prevalent in our natural diets. In addition to it’s impressive antioxidant capacity, gamma tocopherol possesses key functions critical to our well-being.4,5 It is now recognized that gamma tocopherol, like alpha tocopherol, is retained in the body and delivered to tissues.6
Gamma tocopherol has far more powerful anti-inflammatory actions than does the alpha form. Further, it is more potent at inhibiting certain inflammatory cytokines in cell culture and in living animals.7-9 And it inhibits production of stress-related “heat shock proteins” that result from inflammatory stimuli.10 Kidney dialysis patients, with huge inflammatory stresses, show reduced markers of inflammation when supplemented with gamma tocopherol.11 
A complete E would have alpha , beta, gamma and delta tocotrienol. Gamma trocotrienol triggers cancer cell apotosis . Tocotrienols " “results demonstrate that gamma-tocotrienol is a potent inhibitor of NF-kappaB activation, which may explain its anti-angiogenic, anti-proliferative, proapoptotic, antimetastatic, anti-inflammatory, and immunomodulatory effects.” Moreover, they pointed out that their “data are in agreement with other published reports that tocotrienol is a superior molecule among the members of the family of Vitamin E” (13). 

The new oil has one of the richest sources for omega 3 , and the richest sources for complex E , complete 4 tocopherols , 4 tocotrienols plus gamma oryzanol which has shown to counter the effects of chemotherapy and radiation . Animal studies have shown promising results in cancer .

The Vitamin E used in commercial dog food is alpha tocopherol , most likey a synthetic form , indicated by dl - prefix -- which is just not the same as a natural for --

"Alpha-tocopherol is the most biologically active form of vitamin E, and its natural form consists of one isomer.

In contrast, synthetic alpha-tocopherol contains eight different isomers, of which only one (about 12 percent of the synthetic molecule) is identical to natural vitamin E. 

The other seven isomers range in potency from 21 percent to 90 percent of natural d-alpha-tocopherol.

This may appear to be arcane nutritional chemistry, but it is key to understanding how the body absorbs natural and synthetic supplements differently. 

Molecular structure determines how the body uses vitamin E. Researchers have found that natural vitamin E assimilates far better than synthetic versions. Specific binding and transport proteins produced in the liver select the natural d-alpha form of vitamin E and largely ignore all other forms."

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Any opinions on this info?
> 
> http://www.windyhollowvet.com/Document/info/ChronicRenalFailureDiet.pdf


Seems reasonable and makes sense health wise. Of course the disclaimer is I am a no expert. I don't even play one on TV!! 



Jax08 said:


> Thanks. I think this is our fault. We didn't get her teeth done when she was 10 because she had a re-occurrence of growths that looked like the mast cell she had before. So we decided to let her be, thinking the mast cell cancer would take her long before now. Two years later, here we are and her teeth should have been taken out two years ago. We did this to her by making the wrong choice.


I know it's easy to feel at fault....but please don't. There are some things you just can't know. Had I been in the same situation I would have assumed the same thing about the tumor and not opted for dental work . If that helps at all.......You obviously love her very much and take great care of her, so please don't beat yourself up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Carmen. That covers the fatty oils completely. Your Feed-Sentials will cover keeping her diet balanced so I'll have to order that since I only ordered the Sunday Sundae with some samples of feed-sentials and the oil. 

so, the only question I have is phosphorus vs protein requirements. I'll have to look up the amounts in all the foods we feed her and figure out what to sub in to keep the phosphorus levels low. I know we have a mix of turkey neck and hearts down there that will be high in phosphorus.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you mysweetkaos. I wonder if her kidney function will recover some when the teeth are gone and the toxins are removed from her system. I hope so. I'm sure she'll feel better. She was boxing DH and Jax this morning before we left.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Thank you mysweetkaos. I wonder if her kidney function will recover some when the teeth are gone and the toxins are removed from her system. I hope so. I'm sure she'll feel better. She was boxing DH and Jax this morning before we left.


It would stand to reason that once her kidneys are not having the extra toxin from her teeth that that energy could go elsewhere. I used to work as a nurse (before I became caretaker to 3 kids and 2 dogs) So from human standpoint yes it would help. I did my grandpa's dialysis for a few years, so I know a "little" about kidneys. As for food....I don't know much. I know wellness core is high in protien, but not sure on phosphorus levels....it looks like you feed raw though....so I have beyond no knowledge, if that's possible:blush: Isn't it nice to see when our seniors get crazy bursts of energy....sounds silly but nothing makes me happier than watching Kaos chase Sherman and trying to fit his whole head in his mouth, that means it's a good day!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I was reading about fluid intake. Will she need extra electrolytes? If so, what do I give her? I assume things like gatorade with all their sugar are bad. the owner of the natural food store told me water, lemon juice and sea salt is "natural" gatorade.


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

A lot of useful info here:

DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Thanks. I think this is our fault. We didn't get her teeth done when she was 10 because she had a re-occurrence of growths that looked like the mast cell she had before. So we decided to let her be, thinking the mast cell cancer would take her long before now. Two years later, here we are and her teeth should have been taken out two years ago. We did this to her by making the wrong choice.


I'm sure it wasn't just that, although dental disease can cause heart and kidney problems. The kidneys are constantly filtering the blood and any other foreign substances along with bacteria, can really wreak havoc.
If it's mild, I'd suggest getting the teeth out and keeping her on antibiotics for up to a month, at the _very _least, 2 straight weeks. This may help mend the kidneys some.

When our little Dachshund ate ibuprofen and almost killed himself, he was left with mild kidney failure. We were advised to put him on "diet" kibble. We chose Avoderm at 18% protein, but they changed formulas. The best we can do now is Natural Balance as it's lower in fat, protein and calories. That is what I'd advise you feed your dog. It's good nutrition and would meet the "diet food" requirement of lower protein, not that you want to avoid the protein but a reduced amount will give the kidneys a break.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> I was reading about fluid intake. Will she need extra electrolytes? If so, what do I give her? I assume things like gatorade with all their sugar are bad. the owner of the natural food store told me water, lemon juice and sea salt is "natural" gatorade.


No, just water is fine. Water and a quality diet will replace whatever electrolytes she may be losing.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

I kept our late Blue alive for over 3 years using a protocol developed by Lew Olson www.b-naturals.com (look in the newsletter/recipe section for info.) and he was in a chronic state throughout - we had to give subcutaneous fluids on a regular basis. It doesn't sound as though your dog is that far along, but an appropriate diet is key to management. (And contrary to what a lot of vets will tell you your dog NEEDS protein. You just have to watch the phosphorus levels). Lew told me to put Blue on 50% protein/50%carbohydrates. A typical meal for him consisted of raw hamburger (you can also lightly cook it if you like) or chicken, pork or lamb, plus a mixture of Japanese (sticky) rice, and sweet potato or squash. He could have butter, cream, or grated cheese to spark up the taste and add calories.You use ground eggshell (NOT bonemeal, which is high in phosphorus) for calcium. It's a simple diet, and there are variations, such as using Malt-O-Meal instead of rice, and egg whites. See the website for other ingredients, and necessary supplements. CoQ10 is one of them......

Another good resource is www.dogaware.com
where you can find tables listing the phosphorus counts of many different foods.

I did not give anything but water for liquid - but he was getting additonal items in the subcu. fluids.
_______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> I was reading about fluid intake. Will she need extra electrolytes? If so, what do I give her? I assume things like gatorade with all their sugar are bad. the owner of the natural food store told me water, lemon juice and sea salt is "natural" gatorade.


 
I don't have time to do it right now (I have family coming in for 2nd round of holiday madness)....the one thing I can think of is Raw Apple cidar vinegar, but would have to "investigate" further. Only issue I am not sure on is it may have too much potassium. Worth researching though I know it can help balance nutrient losses and is chalked full of good stuff. Other than that, you could do subq injections at home I believe as a maintenance if your vet feels it is necessary.


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## teriod (Jun 12, 2011)

Please do not use anything with sodium in it for your dog..kidney disease causes hi blood pressure and so does salt and electrolytes ask your vet about supplements.
It is correct to advise a low protein diet and you are.correct about the phosphorous!
It cannot be flushed by the kidneys and gathers and causes crystals in the blood stream, this can be taken care with a phosphorous binder taken with meals.
Another blood level to keep an eye on is potassium,it can be either hi or low.

You need to ask about the Gfr, glomer filtration rate, it is an index in which you see how far the disease has progressed


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I already posted the supplement suggestions on the other board. I would order those--I know many people who have used them for dogs and they really helped. 

Cleo's rotten teeth were pulled and that didn't change her kidney values in any way. 

SubQs are not recommended for regular use until they are necessary. Until then add water to her regular diet and provide her with lots of water bowls and preferably one of those fountains with the circulating water. 

Cleo had CRF and peed every few hours so that may be the reason for the peeing on the floor. 

You don't need a phosphorous binder until the phosphorous is high. Cleo had CRF for 3 years and never needed a binder. In fact, her phosphorous levels came down. 

You want high quality proteins. I know in cats it's recommended to stay away from beef and other red meats (harder to process) and not to give too much fish. 

I'm sure there's a yahoo group for CRF in dogs. I found the one for cats very helpful for Cleo


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I printed your post, Ruth. Thanks for those. Carmen's probiotic supplement has all of what the one has plus. I'm reading about binders right now. Says if her levels don't come down then add binders. Looking up nutrient info on the food we already have mixed up. Unfortunately turkey neck which seems to be crazy high but I'll see if I can balance it out with vege's or have to feed it to another.

Looks like I need to change her diet and get her levels retested in a month from what I'm reading. Still haven't talked to the vet. He had some emergency farm calls so she is in surgery right now.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Look up egg whites. I remember that those are low in phosphorous. Perhaps you can supplement with those. 

Are her phos levels high now? 

And remember that BUN is hydration while Creatine is an indicator of overall kidney function.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm not sure, Ruth. I had a message from him when I got home so I haven't seen any paperwork. Her BUN is usually a bit high but nothing to be concerned with. This time her BUN has gone down slightly but her CRE is up over the norm. He said in his message that when BOTH are up, it is an indication of CRF. I'm assuming they did the test that also shows the PH/Ca levels but not sure yet. 

Eggs...said great high quality protein but yolks are very high in phosphorus. One site said to give an egg + and egg white.

ETA: it does look like the duck necks we usually feed will be a good option with more calcium than phosphorus.
http://gratefulpet.com/duckneckswhole2lbs.aspx


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> Diet - Raw diet. Doc suggested reducing protein. BUT..isn't the key to reduce phosphorus more than protein? Any input on this?


You are correct, reducing phosphorus is the key. Low phosphorous, moderate protein: which describes a raw prey model diet.



Jax08 said:


> I'm not sure, Ruth. I had a message from him when I got home so I haven't seen any paperwork. Her BUN is usually a bit high but nothing to be concerned with. This time her BUN has gone down slightly but her CRE is up over the norm. He said in his message that when BOTH are up, it is an indication of CRF. I'm assuming they did the test that also shows the PH/Ca levels but not sure yet.


My Apollo was diagnosed with chronic renal failure.. his BUN and creatinine levels were fluctuating: sometimes both were up, sometimes one was up and not the other, and sometimes both were okay. I was basically sent home with a bag of k/d and told my dog was going to die. I wasn't willing to accept that and consulted numerous vets/specialists. The moral of the story is that we never did find out what was wrong, but his levels returned to normal without any expensive "low protein" kidney diet.

Have you checked out the K9KIDNEYS Yahoo group? I highly recommend it. Get copies of the lab reports and post the exact levels and someone there will help you interpret it.

Also, this site is fantastic: DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No, haven't looked for kidney groups yet. Ruth posted the dogaware links on another forum and I'm browsing that now.

My vet didn't say here's a bag of crap, take your dog home to die.  He said I"m going ahead with the surgery to pull her teeth, I have a list of home made diets for you. 

Her bloodwork has been consistent the last two years with a slightly elevated BUN but something changed in the last month from her November check up to now. It will be easy for us to adjust her diet once I gather all the information in my ever so anal spreadsheet making way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Confused on phosphorus/calcium amounts. Is it an amount such as per milligram or is it a ratio?


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## M&J (Nov 16, 2002)

The k9kidney yahoo group scared the daylights out of me! There were a lot of dogs who were crashing. I got a lot excellent help when I joined the yahoo k9kidneydiet group.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Green tripe is another excellent food for dogs w/kidney disease, - I bought it (and still do, it's good for healthy dogs as well) in 5 lb chubs.......Even when Blue was at his sickest, he never turned it down.
________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge :angel:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That is on my list and in my freezer.  

Just heard from the vet. 31 nasty teeth gone. Her CRE level was just slightly elevated by a small percentage. He said it was 1.7 in Nov and is up by 0.2. Her phosphorus levels and calcium levels are still good. He is going to print diets for me to look at and he wants to recheck her in 3 months. He is sending her home with tramadol for pain because he thinks that will be easier on her kidneys.

He thinks her peeing on the floor is partly due to this and partly due to a bit of dementia but that she did NOT have a UTI. He said to NOT restrict her water intake and just deal with the mess in the morning. Guess I need to look for some mats that will catch the pee! When I get old...I hope my kids do the same for me.


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear about all of this. UCONNGSD has a dog with CRF and is a wealth of knowledge. You should contact her. My GSD, Brody, has had some kidney damage from what, we have no idea. I check his levels every 3 months. He's not in per say "renal failure" just yet and my goal is to keep him out of that. But, I've been doing my own research via the yahoo kidney diet group, dog awareness, and uconngsd. The biggest thing is the diet and supplements. COQ10 is an excellent vitamin for reducing creatinine levels, new studies are showing. Omega 3's are good for preventing further damage to the kidneys, along with vitamin e. I also have Brody on Renal essentials vitamins from vetriscience. Sub Q fluids are good for assisting in flushing out the toxins. But all of this depends on the dogs levels. Do you know what bloodwork numbers are? Also, depending on the numbers, depends on the protein level in the food. For Brody, his levels aren't horrible so I can still feed a decent amount of protein. Once levels are at a certain point, lower protein is better. But phosphorous is a key element you want to keep an eye on. Green Tripe like someone said above is excellent. Another thing is a calcium/phosphorous binder. Again, it depends on what levels your dogs bloodwork is showing. I would highly recommend talking to uconngsd. Her dog was diagnosed at 8 months old with CRF and is almost 4 years old I'm pretty sure. There is a wealth of knowledge out there, you can join me in learning!


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## Lesley1905 (Aug 25, 2010)

Some of the information on supplements, bloodwork numbers, diet, etc can be sooooo overwhelming. Another thing I did was make a spreadsheet of Brodys bloodwork so I can track his numbers. We also had his kidneys ultrasounded to make sure they looked healthy, thankfully they looked fine! I also test his urine frequently to make sure his urine specific gravity is ok. We do his bloodwork every 3 months. If your interested in the spreadsheet, I can email you mine and you can replace Brodys values with your dogs values.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

bingo -- just had a thought I know a woman who was head nurse of the dialysis unit at a major hospital (currently returned to school - one year to go to getting her ND)


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

soooo...

Carmen's oil, probiotic mix and feed sentials. Add to that CoQ10. Recheck bloodwork in 3 months to give diet a chance to make a difference. I think at this point, it will be decided whether she needs a binder. 

Vet did not suggest subq fluids at this stage and at her age, he didn't feel the prognosis once we got to that stage would be very good so if we reach that stage we'll have a decision to make. From her bloodwork, it looks like this was caught just as things were starting to change.

Yes, I would like a copy of your spreadsheet. I'll PM you my email address.

Carmen - Looking at the Renal Essentials (Vetri-Science Renal Essentials - Vetri-Science Renal Essentials For Dogs (90 Tabs)), how does this differ from your products? I see different ingredients but do they achieve the same end as yours?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

If the CREA isn't high that doesn't really support the peeing on the floor theory. 

And I think Carmen's products are formulated for boosting the immune system, right? You need something that specifically addresses kidney function...and you also may need something like Tinkle Tonic that addresses the incontinence issue. 

WDJ had a good article on dementia: How to Care For an Older Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'll let Carmen address what her products are for, but IMO, they are not 'just' for boosting immune system. They are all listed on her website and have very similar ingredients to the Renal Essentials and Adozyl.
Carmspack Working German Shepherds, Feed-Sentials

The CREA is higher than normal (up by 0.5) and Doc thought it did address the peeing on the floor. Added to that dementia which he felt she was developing. He said in CRF that animals feel more thirsty so are drinking more, which she is. He didn't want her water to be restricted for an extended period of time. 6-8 hours is ok but not picking up the water at 6pm until 6am. I read yesterday that by the time the levels on the blood test show a problem that the kidneys are already 75% compromised.

Again..this is not a leaking incontinence issue, this is a full bladder release at night at any time during the night. This isn't an urinary tract issue, this is a kidney issue. That Tinkle Tonic has a diuretic in it. From everything I've read, that is the last thing you want to give. At least one of the other ingredients is in Carmen's supplement.

What I read on the CoQ10 was very promising. It seems it's been shown to help not only renal function but cognitive processes as well. I'm getting quite the list in my Amazon shopping cart.

And very good article! Thanks for posting it!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok...someone please expand on this to see if I have this right...

Calcium carbonate is what I need to replace the bone with. It is also a phosphate binder. So by using this, I am achieving both goals? 

I have 60 lbs of ground meat/bone in the freezer for her right now. If I add this to the mixture, that should bind some of the phosphates from the bone?

It says initial dose should be 100 mg/kg per day. kg of the meat being given? And what is aluminum hydroxide? Is that safe to feed? anything aluminum worries me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Luckily the condition was caught in the early stage .
Now Jax08 has a diagnosis -- with solutions so varied to make your head spin.
I know that in conversations with my holistic vet , the advice was high quality clean protein so that the kidney does not have to filter a lot of "junk" . Yet so much is written and advice given on lowering the protein. Yet studies support - I believe even Dodds but would have to research this and don't have the time at the moment , recommend high protein , as in normal not lowered.
I know my friend who was head of a kidney dialysis ward did agree in the high clean source of protein , high once again meaning available without a lot of effort .

Then there is literature that says kelp is to be excluded because of salt , and others that recommend kelp because of its buffering toxin neutralizing alginate properties . Also recommended to aid digestion . 


I know that sesame seeds - tahini are a good source for bioavailable calcium - even Billinghurst says this.

Get your recommendations from your vet, consult a holistic , naturapathic vet - and review all the ingredients as to suitability. 

some say no diuretics yet some treatments specifically include mild diuretics - parsley being one such ingredient.

Hemp seed flour is an excellent full amino acid profile supply of protein that is nearly phosphorus free . 

Not one thing will be done without veterinary approval. 
If it is not appropriate then that will be clearly said. If it means an exclusion of an ingredient or so , then I could look at this .


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Not high protein, high quality protein I believe? And lower phosphorous like people are saying. Look at this recipe on Dog Aware - it's about 60% animal - 40% grain right, which is not the same as what people who feed raw do is it? I don't feed raw so do not know. 

*SAMPLE DAILY DIET for Early to Moderate Kidney Disease* 
*Amount Fed* *Protein 
(Grams)* *Phos 
(Mg)* *Calories* *Phos/100 kcal* *Meat* *6 ounces (3/4 cup)* *28.8* *276* *355* *78* *Grains and Veggies * *6 ounces (3/4 cup)* *4.1* *51* *153* *35* *1 Large Egg + 1 Egg White* *3 ounces* *9.9* *101* *91* *111* *Liver/Kidney* *1* *ounce* *4.5* *76* *32* *238* *Extras* *1 ounce* *0.7* *19* *87* *22* 





*Totals* *17 ounces* *48* *523* *718* *73*
DogAware.com Health: Sample Daily Diet for Dogs with Kidney Disease

I have been reading that site a ton, plus joined a group they have listed - I joined the first one: 


K9KIDNEYS
K9KidneyDiet (also covers dogs prone to forming calcium oxalate stones)
I haven't posted on it yet, it's pretty intimidating in terms of info but the files and archives are incredible. 


There was a hotsy thread on aluminum hydroxide today I think!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Yes, high quality, easier to digest proteins. 

Is the phosphorous high? If so then you need a binder. Again, if not, you do not need a binder. There is some evidence that shows that eggshell powder (a natural source of calcium carbonate) is an effective binder. I do not know the levels of calcium carbonate in ground bones. However, you do not want to use two kinds of binders. 

There is good info here. It is for cats but has some good sources for further research: Page-4 | Chronic Renal Failure

The VetriScience Renal Essentials are specifically formulated to support animals with kidney failure. Carmen's products are not. That is not a judgement of her products in any way (which look great). 

Have you contacted UConnGsd? She has extensively researched all of this and been dealing with for years with Wolfie.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I have been reading that site a ton, plus joined a group they have listed - I joined the first one:
> 
> 
> K9KIDNEYS
> ...


Jean, don't forget this one, as an overview, written by a now-retired vet at UCD:
Diet and Chronic Renal Disease

I should add, I've always thought his actual diets were too grain heavy, I'm not sure about the included diets, but the general info is good.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax08 - I'll be directing you to look into phytoplankton - split cell chlorella, spirulina etc which is top line up of new powder --


reading material -- arm yourself with knowledge so that you can ask the vet the right questions http://www.alternativepethealth.com/kidney-failure.html


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No, I haven't contacted UConn yet. Spent a good portion of the day on couch with a heating pad.

Carmen - Yeppers...my head is spinning. Does kelp have the potential to interfere with her thyroid meds? That has iodine in it? I'll contact a friend tomorrow and ask her who her holistic vet is. I don't think my vet would know much about the ingredients of your products and how they would work with kidney issues. So, I'll start Jax on the probiotic and supplements as originally planned for her itchies and allergies until I have a holistic vet review for Banshee. Sound like a plan? We can discuss further by phone? Will you be around this weekend?

Ruth - Phosphorus and calcium are still at normal levels. From the info I read and the conversation with the vet, the ground bone would be replaced with calcium carbonate so it would act to give her required calcium and as a binder. When I spoke to my sister (RN) she said by acting as a binder the phosphate would never see the kidney as it would be excreted out the bowel. So then I asked her if by doing that the daily phosphorus level (in mg) could be raised and would it work as a proportion. I think I HEARD her eyes roll when she said "I'm a nurse and would never think of that. Is that the engineer in you coming out?" :rofl: So, she's checking on that for me.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Jax - I just wanted to wish you luck, my two cats have CRF and I know all the info for them can be overwhelming :hugs:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Bianca!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

For anyone as anal about specifics as me...

The Phosphate Binder Equivalent Dose - Daugirdas - 2011 - Seminars in Dialysis - Wiley Online Library

44 mg phosphate bound by 1 g of calcium acetate
45 mg phosphate bound by 1 g calcium carbonate


> In a study of patients with chronic kidney disease
> (CKD) (mean GFR 26 ml ⁄minutes), 2.0 g calcium carbonate
> reduced urinary phosphate excretion from 496
> to 413 mg per 24 hours or by 41.5 mg⁄g of calcium
> ...


http://www.nowfoods.com/Supplements...ls/Calcium-Magnesium-Pure-Powders/M003065.htm
1 level teaspoon = 1.2 g of calcium carbonate


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

*Conclusion*

There is clear evidence in the form of prospective, randomized trials that calcium-based binders are associated with increasing arterial calcification compared with the non–calcium-based phosphate binder sevelamer. There is sound biologic plausibility as to the mechanism by which excess calcium load from binders contributes to vascular calcification. As nephrologists, we should leave the old treatment paradigms behind us and advance our patient care into the 21st century as supported by advancements in science. 

gave conclusion first - here is the study The Case against Calcium-Based Phosphate Binders


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ugh...just when I thought I had it all figured out. If I add more meat then I have to add a calcium supplement to her food. The 45 mg of phosphate that 1 g of calcium takes out seems minimal in the grand scheme of things. And how much calcium based phosphate binder would need to be incorporated to cause the calcification? Over how long of a time period? 

So...what calcium supplement should be used? At this point, I think I have her diet figured out so that the calcium carbonate is supplementing the bone taken out more than actually working as a binder. 

Have to run right now but will read the article you posted again later to see if I can answer some of my own questions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Algae based calcium - does it have phosphor in it? How will adding vitamin D (in the algae) affect kidneys?

AlgaeCal Calcium Supplement Builds Stronger Bones - Guaranteed!


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> K9KIDNEYS
> K9KidneyDiet (also covers dogs prone to forming calcium oxalate stones)
> I haven't posted on it yet, it's pretty intimidating in terms of info but the files and archives are incredible.
> 
> ...


These websites were immensely helpful when LJ had a kidney crisis.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Banshee has not had any accidents lately. I think 2 since her teeth were taken out. I don't think she is drinking near as much as she was to begin with. I think she is sleeping better. She's not wandering as much so possibly a sign that she is more comfortable? Still standing by the door alot to go out and stare into the wild blue yonder. I have noticed a habit of sleeping on the floor rather than the chair and wonder if the cold weather is making her hurt so am getting joint supplements started. DH was supposed to take a urine sample into the vet to get a baseline specific gravity on Saturday but apparently forgot too. So that is still not done.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax08 - in the link you provided this point was made , and this question asked "Chances are the calcium supplement you are taking now is made from limestone or marble. The label will say "calcium carbonate" or "calcium citrate", which is nothing more than ground up stone. Do you eat rocks in any other food or supplement'

when you get calcium from a plant source the breakdown from "rock" to bioavailable form has already been done by the plant.
most herbivores have very dense weight bearing bones .

look at the ingredients of the supplements -
wheat grass "The therapeutic powers of wheatgrass can be attributed to the oxygenating effects of the chlorophyll it contains, as well as its complete spectrum of vitamins and minerals, amino acids, enzymes and essential fatty acids. Over 80 enzymes have been identified in it and it contains vitamins A, C, E, B1, B2, B3, B6 and K. When grown on the most mineral rich soil, wheatgrass is able to assimilate and therefore supply, the full spectrum of 92 minerals and trace minerals, including zinc, selenium, phosphorus, potassium, calcium, boron, chloride, chromium, cobalt, copper, iodine, iron, magnesium, manganese, nickel, sodium and sulpher" 
quote The Complete Guide to Growing and Using Wheatgrass: Everything You Need to ... - Loraine R. Dégraff - Google Books

quote Calcium cannot be used properly, if other trace minerals are not present. Plants such as Wheatgrass Juice and other live foods, have the trace minerals present to make the calcium absorbed by the body. Even though spinach, beet greens, and chard have more calcium that Wheatgrass, the presence of oxalic acid binds the calcium making it unusable by the body

a biochemist that I had the pleasure spending an afternoon with commented that it is his companies opinion (slight diversion here but getting to relevant point) that since the introduction of homogenized milk there has been a spike in adult onset diabetes. We had further discussion on pasteurization . This past Saturday I was a contributor to a "health" convention , met many naturapaths , struck up a friendly connection and much information exchanged and they were of the same opinion. Also the reminder for calcium to be absorbed it had to be joined by fat. So all those who are dieting , adding calcium through dairy, and cutting calories by using skim and zero fat yogurts, well, waste of time . The closer something is to real the better . So at least whole fat dairy. Second to this dairy as a source of calcium - raw milk even better but that is a hotly debated issue in Ontario - re Michael Schmidt Raw milk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . I am able to get raw goat milk and raw goat whey liquid which I provide for the pups and less frequently the adults (more whey) 
commercially available Answers Raw Pet Food Company: ADDITIONAL - Raw Goat's Milk

this is what I include in the supplements via goat whey powder and why 
*Why Goat’s Milk?*
Today, over 65% of the world’s population drinks the milk of goats. Goat’s milk qualifies as foods high in potassium and calcium and the most like human milk in composition and is praised for its ready digestibility. Our bodies can digest goat’s milk in 20 minutes, whereas it takes 2-3 hours to digest cow’s milk. Moreover, the composition and size of goat milk fat globules are 5-10 times smaller than those found in cow’s milk. Goat’s milk is an alkaline food that is also naturally homogenized. Under the heading of dietetics and hygiene, the Journal of American Medicine, the official organization for over 100,000 physicians in the United States, writes, “The goat is the healthiest domestic animal known, and its milk is superior in every way to cow’s milk. Goat’s milk is the ideal food for babies, convalescents, and invalids, especially those with weakened digestive powers. Goat’s milk is the purest, most healthful and most complete food known.
*Why do we need the minerals in Mineral Matrix™?*
Since 90% of the minerals in milk are contained in the whey, MM minerals are a natural part of the microstructure of concentrated whey. Nutrient intake works best when groups of nutrients, including minerals, are available in the digestive tract at the same time. MM is a concentrated food that contains minerals in naturally occurring combinations that are well assimilated. Senate Document #264, 74th Congress, 2nd Session, claims there are serious nutritional deficiencies developing in this country because our food is lacking in certain minerals and trace elements the body requires to stay healthy. This claim was made in 1936! If concerns about the quality of our food were raised over 70 years ago, where does that leave us today? The obvious conclusion is supplying our bodies with foods high in potassium amd calcium and other minerals. What an excellent description of Mineral Matrix™!

barley grass -- Barley grass is said to have 30 times more vitamin B1 and 11 times the amount of calcium than there is in cow’s milk

nettles - the Master Herbalist says nettles are so beneficial rich in minerals Nettles is specific for the kidneys, being useful in expelling gravel from the bladder and dissolving kidney stones. It is a powerful blood purifier that drives out toxins and metabolic wastes by stimulating the kidneys to excrete more water. Nettles tea will clean out the entire intestinal tract while activating the body’s natural defense mechanisms. The tea will also kill and expel intestinal worms. " It is also very high in the minerals calcium, magnesium, silicon, sulphur, copper, chromium, zinc, cobalt, potassium and phosphorus. Nettles also contain high amounts of vitamins A, C, D, E, and K as well as riboflavin and thiamine._

Jax08 dandelion greens 10 Reasons You Should Use Dandelion Greens In Your Green Smoothie | Incredible Smoothies

chlorella and spirulina The vitamin and mineral content of chlorella and spirulina

carob 
*Calcium Content of Carob*

Carob contains more calcium, with a content of 352 milligrams per 100 grams, than an equal serving of yogurt or cottage cheese, which yield 120 milligrams per 100 grams and 94 milligrams per 100 grams, respectively. In addition, carob contains approximately twice the amount of calcium per serving as chocolate, which contains about 153 milligrams per 100 grams, giving carob the advantage over chocolate as the healthier treat. Further promoting its use as a source of calcium over chocolate is the fact that carob does not contain oxalic acid, a compound found in chocolate that interferes with your body's ability to absorb calcium.


Read more: Carob As A Source Of Calcium | LIVESTRONG.COM

You have MORE than enough sources of bioavailable calcium paired with co factors and essential fatty acids .
​ 
This is something that I have commented on many times (forum and other) , that this is not a bioavailable source of calcium . Nor is bone-meal quote "
. As of 2011, organic bone meal supplements are the best choice, because high levels of toxins have been found in the bones of animals not raised organically


Furthermore the bone used in creating bone meal comes from the dense weight bearing bone of mature cattle . In landscape industry when spreading bone meal you are advised to wear a mask so that you are not inhaling lead and other contaminants (great !) (if you were to mineralize with Jersey Greensand the plants would have access to calcium in the soil ) . Also the bone is heated and baked at least 2 to 3 times which makes bone , which is living and dynamic into dead "glass" for lack of better description -- ever heard of fine porcelain china ware, fine bone china ? well that is bone ash incorporated into the china to harden it. You can have a very thin translucent , item , that at the same time is strong.

later
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs 
​


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I looked up the spirulina and chlorella yesterday...talk about superfoods!  Will you be available later this evening for a phone call?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just heading out - how about tomorrow afternoon


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'll be working at the office rest of the week except Thursday vet appt for Jax at the ortho. Usually home after 6pm. Will catch up with you this weekend if possible. I'll send an email with my questions. They aren't to extensive. Just dosage and a couple of questions on ingredients.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Don't have time to read this entire thread right now but wanted to give you a thread I've kept in case Eli ever needs it:

Vétoquinol: Azodyl - Enteric Dialysis® reduces azotemia associated with CKD


Edit- they have a few products in the Renal area.

Good luck and I'll catch up later.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Rosa. I've looked at that product. It's a probiotic. I guess I spoke too soon about accidents at night and jinxed us!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

shilohsmom said:


> Don't have time to read this entire thread right now but wanted to give you a thread I've kept in case Eli ever needs it:
> 
> Vétoquinol: Azodyl - Enteric Dialysis® reduces azotemia associated with CKD
> 
> ...


Rosa, a lot of dogs have had good luck lowering their creatinine with this product, great idea!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jax08 , remembered this great anti oxidant when cruising the health food store today -- N A C also good for spinal degenerative problems N-Acetylcysteine | VCA Animal Hospitals 

*N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine*—known as "NAC"—provides powerful immune support, and has been shown to play a protective role against a variety of toxins including cigarette smoke, auto exhaust and certain herbicides. It is especially beneficial to animals with respiratory problems and to aging animals, since it protects DNA and RNA from free radical damage. 
NAC is a precursor to glutathione—one of the most important antioxidants—which is composed of three different amino acids, cysteine, glutamic acid and glycine. Glutathione also neutralizes damaging free radicals and peroxide molecules, and regenerates oxidized vitamin C. _Supplementing with NAC is probably the most cost effective way to boost your pet's glutathione levels._
Glutathione:

Slows down the aging process
Enhances the immune system
Helps to reduce the side effects of chemotherapy
Detoxifies the liver
Treats blood and liver disorders
Supports the cardiovascular system
N-acetylsteine to Support Heal Tissue Damage in Dogs | Dog Supplement Index | Supplement & Vitamin Information | FetchDog


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Jax, if you're supplementing with CoQ10, consider giving ubiquinol instead. Ubiquinol is the reduced (active) form & is more readily utilized, especially by seniors.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks!!! I'll look into them!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Miss Boo has her first UTI. By the time we figured out it was her peeing on the floor, the vet was closed. Talked to them on the phone and she said bringing in a urine sample could wait till morning and wouldn't adversely affect her CRF.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Poor thing. Hope she feels better soon!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The vet seems very confident that this was an UTI. She's snoozing right now. From what I read, this is common for CRF dogs. I think the supplements I'm giving her are good for bladder health. Maybe I need to add some cranberry to her diet.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I am so going to be mopping floors tomorrow. My poor old girl


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

I know cranberries are good for humans. They are safe for dogs, I know some commercial kibbles have them. I am not sure if they have the same health effects on dogs, wish I had a better answer.
Poor girl probably hates going in the house too


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

She was peeing and I yelled. She almost hit the deck. I didn't mean to yell, it was a surprised yell, not a mad yell. But a yell is a yell.  I have a meeting in the morning so will get the sample and run it up afterwards.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Heading out to a meeting and then to take Banshee's urine sample in. Really worried about this. She had maybe a 1/4 cup output this morning. Why so little? And it's very bloody. Why can't UTI's start in the morning so the vet office isn't closed by the time you figure it out?


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Has she been drinking a regular amount? Try not to worry...I know that's impossible. I have lost more sleep over Kaos than I care to admit. Hope the vet has good, fast answers for you.:fingerscrossed:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Vet tech said it wasn't uncommon for so little output and I did let her out quite late last night. $70 for an antibiotic! I'm looking at the report right now. Says "rods & cocci". Stopped to get her some cranberry to add to her food and will use Carmen's probiotic mix daily instead of 2x weekly till her antibiotic is gone. Trying to figure out the numbers on the test and what they mean!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SG is skewed because of the infection so will be redone in 3 weeks.
PH=6.5
LEU = 500 LEU/uL
PRO = 500 mg/dL
Glu = neg
KET = neg
UBG = norm
BIL = 1 mg/dL
BLD = 250 Ery/uL
SG = 1021

She had rods and cocci visible. Does anyone know if the protein level fo 500 mg/dL is relevant to the UTI or is that only relevant to the CRF? I can't find an answer online. I found one article that said the PRO was due to the kidneys 'sluffing' off protein due to kidney


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Protein presence is usually due to impaired kidney function. 
I forget too if it's caused by infection or not.
What antibiotic was it? Do you get a script and take to the pharmacy or buy from the vet?


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Protein presence is usually due to impaired kidney function.
> I forget too if it's caused by infection or not.


It can be - that's how my pup was diagnosed with a UTI when the culture came back negative. I've had it happen before, where you can do two or three cultures before you see growth and get confirmation of an infection, but the protein was there from the beginning. This was in a dog with 100% healthy kidneys.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Was a urine protein/creatinine ratio done when she diagnosed with CRF?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. I was reading about that today. I think I should have that done when I have the recheck in 3 weeks. Yes?

I see her SG is on the lower end. What does that mean?

eta:
http://www.newportharborvets.com/dog_articles/kidney-failure-chronic-in-dogs.html

I think, given her lower SG, that she would have about 25% function left per the above article.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

This is another good article. 

DogAware.com Health: Tests used to Diagnose Kidney Disease in Dogs

An untreated bacterial infection can lead to kidney failure.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

:thinking: It's not untreated, just started yesterday. This is her first one ever and she's on a pretty hefty antibiotic for it.

ETA: aha!! The blood in the urine would also cause protein to show. And her urine had lots of blood in it. So that is at least part of the high value.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

UTI's can be pretty sneaky. I considered myself a knowledgeable owner who is very aware of what is going on with her dogs and I completely missed LJ's. She was on a hefty (and pricey) antibiotic for 30 days to clear it up. It also cleared up her CRF. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I'd like to have some hope.

This is another reason it's so important to have all the proper testing at diagnosis. You would know where you stand - what stage your dog is at.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There wasn't anything sneaky about this UTI. And while I would like to think this antibiotic would clear up her CRF, from everything I"ve read once it shows up one the bloodwork at least 2/3 of the kidney function is gone. If it was acute and caused by something like tick disease then it could have happened quickly but my vet feels it is caused by old age and that is a slower process. If an antibiotic was going to clear up the CRF, the one she was on when her teeth were taken out would have done that. I would like to be optimistic, and I actually am because I don't see her leaving anytime soon, I don't think it's realistic to think that (1) a UTI caused her CRF (2) this antibiotic will clear up the CRF. As far as the rest of the diagnostic testing, he wanted her back within 3 months after changing her diet so she is due to go back soon.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

LJsMom said:


> An untreated bacterial infection can lead to kidney failure.


This is what I was thinking too. We've had several dogs go into CRF on this forum from bacterila infections, two that I am thinking of were E. Coli infections.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Since she didn't have a UTI in December when the CRF was found, maybe the CRF is causing the UTI...which is very common.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> Since she didn't have a UTI in December when the CRF was found, maybe the CRF is causing the UTI...which is very common.


Did you have a urinalysis done when the CRF was diagnosed? And the other urine test that Joanne mentioned?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lisa - I am not doing this with you and I'm not going to answer any of your questions given your nasty attitude on the other board. Also the reason I haven't put everything we've done on the board. If you would like to call and argue with my vet then feel free. I suspect you will get a dial tone. Or call and report me for animal abuse. You'll get the dial tone there too. If you have nothing else to offer than a non existant UTI caused the CRF then knock it off. Your entire "theory" is based on her periodically peeing on the floor at night. Which is a symptom of CRF. My vet's entire theory is based on diagnostic tests and an exam. See ya. I'm not going to allow you to engage me any further and detract from BANSHEE's thread.


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## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

I asked about the urinalysis with the protein/creatinine ratio. If you had done this when Banshee was diagnosed you would know what stage she is, if she need a binder or not, and if the high protein was caused by the CRF or the UTI.

I am just trying to help others that come along and read this. The urinalysis is a vital part of the diagnosis. It should not be skipped just because you're ticked at a poster.

Don't worry - I won't post again on your thread.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Joanne -

I am not skipping any diagnostic testing because I'm "ticked at a poster". I would never do anything to harm, or neglect, my animals because of "poster". What kind of sick person does something like that? Where did you even get that from? Because I'm not posting everything that I have discussed with my vet?

I appreciate your posts here and you've given me great information. I'm sorry you feel that way but I'm not going to have an ongoing argument with Lisa that detracts from Banshee's thread.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Banshee bounced up to Cracker and tried to stomp on him. Cracker sat up on his hind legs, batted her three times in the face and stalked away. Banshee ran to DH and cried to him. Jax ran over and harrassed Cracker for 5 minutes until he ran away.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

recheck for Banshee tomorrow. Think we'll have the blood work redone a month early while she's there. Is it better to do the BW fasting?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Results were good!!! Urine protein down to 30 from 500. BUN back in normal range. CREA up slightly, Calcium and Phosp in normal ranges. Recheck in 3 mths

Carmen! I'll email you the results and report from Doc. He'll call your vet to give results and work out the supplement! He said "keep doing what you're doing"


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ok...few minutes to write all this out for anyone that might be going through a similar experience...

Over the past summer, Banshee started peeing at night periodically and only at night. She would wander a bit. If someone stands up, she goes right to the door to go out. Seems a bit lost at times. Vet thinks the wandering, going to the door is due to a bit of dementia.

12/29/2011 had 31 teeth pulled that were terribly infected. Reason we waited was she probably has a return of mast cell cancer and we didn't think she would have that long to live. For anyone wanting further explanation on why we waited read thread on other board. 
Mast Cell Tumors - GermanShepherdHome.net

Here we are 2 years later.... After surgery, we had to wait for that bacteria along with the antibiotics to work out of her system before running any tests. Had a couple weeks break before she developed a UTI. Antibiotics for 3 weeks. 2/25/2012 - First clear weekend not on any antibiotics and bacteria from teeth out of system.

Vet said we did the right thing by waiting to run tests. Would have had skewed test results if we had done the tests at time of diagnosis because of the teeth bacteria and being on an antibiotic. Today, did a Chem17 and urinalysis. Someone stated previously in this thread that a crea/protein ratio should have been done at time of diagnosis. Per vet, that is incorrect. A crea/pro ratio is done as a preliminary test to help determine if there is CRF We already know there is so that would have been a waste of money and can get the same information from the Chem17 w/ electrolytes we ran plus more important values.. Urine was clear today, no infection. She still pees on the floor at night. It is due to the CRF and is a symptom of CRF. 

Supplements: CoQ10, Vit B12, Cranberry, a new supplement from Carmen for kidney/urinary health, O3 oils with vit e (again from Carmen) 

Also discussed calcium supplements with vet. He cringed, literally, when I said calcium supplements until I explained that we were using egg shells. He strongly advised egg shells over calcium supplements because (as Carmen pointed out previously in thread) the supplements are made from rocks whereas egg shells are a food.

Said he was not concerned with Crea level going from 1.9 to 2.1 at this time. Said the levels often go up and level off so next BW will give an idea of what that is doing.

Overall, very happy with what we were doing. Continue supplements, he will discuss Banshee with holistic vet to coordinate with Carmen, continue RAW diet with reduced phosphorus levels. Recheck in 3 months.

When I get time I'll scan BW and UA results in and post.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Sounds like the vet picked the right antibiotic to hit the uti with, which is very likely what brought those numbers inline, of course along with supportive care of the supps. 

What antibiotic was used?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

if thinking she had a uti in December while ignoring everything else makes you sleep better, then you continue to think that. Like a rabid dog with a bone....


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Sigh, no, but if you want to leave information for other people to learn from, I'm thinking that it should at least be complete.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carmen - emailed BW and UA results to you just now. Thank you very much for all the help you've given me!


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Carmen - emailed BW and UA results to you just now. Thank you very much for all the help you've given me!


Jax, I am thrilled to hear the results are good. You are obviously doing something right. Good for you. Please give your Jax a hug from me. :wub:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Elvi! It's been a nail biting couple of months waiting to redo the blood work results for Banshee. I"m just thrilled to see we are on the right track with diet and supplements. The facebook CRF group has been a great help as well.


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Thanks Elvi! It's been a nail biting couple of months waiting to redo the blood work results for Banshee. I"m just thrilled to see we are on the right track with diet and supplements. The facebook CRF group has been a great help as well.


Ooops, I meant Banshee...sorry Banshee, didn't mean to use the wrong name for you. I swear I did mean you. 

Yeah, right, when it comes to our babies, it is so stressful seeing them not feeling their best and just winging it is not an option. I am glad you found a support group that knows what they are doing and have been a help. So, hopefully, this is a beginning of perfect health for Banshee regardless of what predictions the Vet may make.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My vet seems pretty optimistic. He was very happy with the results today. I don't think Boo is going anywhere soon.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My old GSD girl is getting Azodyl and CoQ10. I had ordered an oil for my old BC when she was diagnosed. The BC lived 2 years of a good life even with significant lab values. I will have to look for that oil again. My GSD I caught earlier as I was watching and doing labs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've looked at the Azodyl. It has 3 different probiotics and I'm not sure yet if the same flora is in the supplement I'm already giving. That is definitely something I'm looking at adding. And the next time I order CoQ10, I'll go with the ubiquinol instead.

What is the dosage of CoQ10 you are giving? We're giving 100mg once per day.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Looking at the Azodyl information this morning. Per the info I've found, the Azodyl decreases the BUN value but not so much the CREA level. Right now, her BUN level is dead center of normal. 

http://www.vetoquinolusa.com/Studies/Azotemia/EpakitinAzodyl.pdf
Here are the probiotics in AZodyl,



> Kibow Biotics®is
> produced by Kibow Biotech and contains a patented mixture of probiotic bacteria consisting of Streptococus
> thermophilus, Lactobacillus acidophilus, and Bifidobacterium longum.


ETA: In the above study, it does show a decrease in CREA levels.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)




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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Best news - thanks so much .
YES - Sunday Sundae DOES have 

_probiotic bacteria consisting of Streptococus
thermophilus, Lactobacillus acidophilus, and Bifidobacterium longum _


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Today's pics : 12 years, 3 months



















I"m wrong Carmen! She DOES shine! And she needs a bath!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

~sigh~ If it's not one thing, it's another. Found an ugly growth on Bansh's back yesterday.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wow -- burnished copper -- love it .

growth-- (the greens -- phyt'n chance) -


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'll look up the copper. Thanks Carmen. She has other growths that we chose not to remove because we didn't want to disturb them (possibly a return of mast cell cancer). This is a new growth though. Really hoping the one on her face wasn't disturbed to "seed" her body with mast cells.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Love your pics, she looks so regal. What a wise, sweet face


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no -- don't look up copper !!!!! lol I was saying the dog's coat and colour (my favourite) is like burnished copper - beautiful shine.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh lol Yes! She does have that shine!  I didn't realize how much until I took the picture


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good article!

Age in Senior Dogs Does Not Cause Renal Failure | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

I, personally, have believed from the start that Banshee's CRF was caused by her teeth. We found growths on her about 2 years ago that we think is a return of mast cell cancer. The one of her chest receded, the one on her face has slowly grown over the last two years. We chose then to leave her be. Now there is a growth on her back. MCT are so unpredictable. Removing them could seed her body. Verifying that they are in MCT without removal could seed her body. Putting her under anesthesia, we could lose her. So we chose to leave her be. Her BUN has been high for over a year. We contributed it to her RAW diet as that can throw off results. Asked online and told if the CREA wasn't high then it shouldn't be anything to worry about. All I can say in hindsight is she probably would not be in CRF if we had pursued reasons for the BUN in more depth and if we had made a different choice regarding putting her under anesthesia and had her teeth taken out sooner. Fear of losing her kept us from doing it. We changed diet to a "cancer" diet, added supplements...all of which I would do over again. I don't regret not having the growths removed and think we made a good choice to not disturb them. I hope that if anyone else is in the same situation and they come across this thread that they pursue what we didn't in regards to her teeth.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Lamenting to DH last night how much I hate driving 40 minutes to go to a vet. I drive 2 hours a day to work and back and just hate to drive any more.

As I stood in the exam room with Jax waiting for the doc, I got my answer on why I do that.

He came in, with his face full of concern and interest, and said 'How is Banshee?"  And if I'm in there with Banshee and seeing the other Doc...he always asks about Jax and her knee. yep...this is why I make the drive instead of to a closer vet.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thursday, Banshee started limping so made a vet appointment for this morning. Last night, we found a large mass the size of my hand on her chest on the opposite side. Options discussed, Lyme's test done to rule out, xrays taken. Stunned at the size of the mass, I kept asking him how we could have missed that. Can they really grow that fast? The answer was Yes, they can. She was playing Wednesday morning at 6:30am without a care in the world.

The limp is coming from a disk in her back, impinging on the nerves much like a herniated disk would with us. It is completely unrelated to the mass. Funny how things work out. We saw the limp and made the appointment and then found the mass. 

However the mass is large, firm and fast growing so he is confident this is a mast cell tumor. He's put her on prednisone to try to slow the growth and to help with the inflammation in her back. We discussed the balance of shutting down the histamines vs shutting down her immune system vs drugs to further damage her kidneys due to the CRF and he explained that is in the dosage and this is the best drug to address all the issues with the last amount of damage to the kidney...basically the lesser of all the evils. It's a 3 week regimen and we are to let him know the progress in 10 days. If it slows the growth, hopefully halts it at least temporarily, then we will do a maintenance dose the rest of her life. If she is still in pain for her back, we will have to do pain killers, probably tramadol. While this will be hard on her kidneys, at this point it's about quality of life.

I know, in my heart, this is the beginning of the end. It's truly the end of an era for us. Banshee has been there to watch my kids grow up, protect them when we were working and they were home by themselves, greet them at the door and love them. We are looking, best case scenario, a few months. Worst case, a few weeks. If the mass continues to grow it will impede her ability to walk on the other front leg. At this time, it is all about the mast cell and keeping her comfortable. He said they would come here when it's her time.

For anyone who may be going through something similar, Doc said that 13 was ancient for a Boxer and said the reason she has lived so long with quality was the changes we made in her diet, the additional supplement, and OTC drugs that gave us an additional 2 1/2 years with her that we never dreamed we would have.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

One of my rescues from SC developed a very fast growing lump on the leg and we thought the worst. It turned out to be bot fly and simple meds and antibiotics took care of it. I have never even heard of a bot fly before. Just putting it out there as an option.

Sending you positive thoughts...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Rebel.  Bot flies are nasty. This mass showed on xray and it's firm. It's the size of my hand.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Jax My thoughts are w/ you and i pray for a simple problem that is quickly mended. Sounds like yopu have a great vet.
Maggi


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with the excessive drinking which results in the peeing on the floor in Great Lake size puddles at night? I don't want to restrict her water. Not sure if that will harm her kidneys? 

Daytime should not be an issue. DH is home at noon to let them out. Pee pads in the areas that she goes? Diapers? Really hate to do that. Afraid she'll rip it off or have skin irritation issues.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

There are large, bedsize, absorbing sheets used in hospitals for incontinent patients. You can put them on the floor.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Rebel! There was a huge mess when he got home at lunch and again when he got home from work. Poor girl can't even make it a couple hours and we think she's peeing when sleeping and not even knowing it. 5 more days till we start dropping the dosage


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with the excessive drinking which results in the peeing on the floor in Great Lake size puddles at night? I don't want to restrict her water. Not sure if that will harm her kidneys?
> 
> Daytime should not be an issue. DH is home at noon to let them out. Pee pads in the areas that she goes? Diapers? Really hate to do that. Afraid she'll rip it off or have skin irritation issues.


Michelle, have you thought of putting doggie diapers on her? This may help not soiling your house.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's a consideration but I dont' want to do anything that might irritate her skin and cause another issue. I think I'm going to place the pee pads around the house in areas that she's gone. Hopefully, DH remembered to block the furniture when he left for work since it looks like she leaked while sleeping on the couch yesterday.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have never heard of bot fly on a dog? How was this tested.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

carmspack said:


> I have never heard of bot fly on a dog? How was this tested.


Neither have I. One vet thought it could be cancer. It was a large growth under the rear leg. I feared lymphoma. Luckily the vet recognized it by visual exam. It was $10 worth of meds that took care of it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good news...Banshee is no longer limping. She was chasing cats and boxing at me Monday night. Not sure if the prednisone is keeping the mass from growing more. Wait and see on that. But for now, she seems pain free and happy.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> It's a consideration but I dont' want to do anything that might irritate her skin and cause another issue. I think I'm going to place the pee pads around the house in areas that she's gone. Hopefully, DH remembered to block the furniture when he left for work since it looks like she leaked while sleeping on the couch yesterday.


I would not fool w/dog diapers but would get adult depends. You can cut a tail hole and they usually fit better than dog things, on large dogs anyway.

If you change regularly you'll know when/if she starts getting a rash and can stop with them. I think the depends may have better absorbency than dog diapers. 
Girls are easier to diaper than boys because of anatomical reasons


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Just had a conversation in my place of work with a customer.

She has a senior in renal failure, and has made huge improvements in health and quality life by switching to this diet:

http://www.theskyesthelimit.com/product listing.htm#Kidney

Canine Life Kidney Formula... 

She said she added more protein to increase the percentage to %18. She also does several tablespoons of crushed dried egg shell into her batches for the calcium, no phosphorus... I met the dog, was very impressed... did not seem at all like she was sick. She was so, so happy with the results of this change that she asked me to recommend it to anyone having the same issue.

It's an opinion, definitely should look into it!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks Angel. Banshee gets RAW and is doing well on it. Thank you for adding it to this thread in case anyone else might see it though!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Can prednisone make a mast cell shrink??? I read the size of the mass can go up and down but this seems to be significantly smaller than before the prednisone.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Raw is the best!  Any updates on how the puppers is doing lately?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

As far as kidney function? No, we didn't have the bloodwork done yet. Her limp is gone and she's boxing again so the pred must have taken care of the inflammation and it seems her mass is smaller. I know the MCT's can go up and down so will have to call the vet.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Can prednisone make a mast cell shrink??? I read the size of the mass can go up and down but this seems to be significantly smaller than before the prednisone.


Yes it definitely can. The reason is, mast cells react like an allergic reaction. They are quite "irritable", and swell, and the pred. calms cells down, especially mast cells in the body, which is why they use it in allergic reactions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I know what causes them. Just did not expect to see such a significant reduction so quickly. But then it grew quickly so I guess it shouldn't surprise me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Pred, for all it's downfalls, is a miracle drug in many ways. 
Short term "bursts" are not as bad as being on it for months or years.

I forget if your vet is sure it's a mast cell tumor or if they are just guessing?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Educated guess based on exam, xray, breed, age and history. could it be something else? yes, it wasn't aspirated or removed and biopsied. But the chances are pretty slim.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Aspiration and what not can aggravate it due to the irritability of the cells, so it makes sense to try this first.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I know. We've been there and done this before. Except last time it was small enough to remove with clean margins. There is no reason to aspirate this. I don't think they can get clean margins if they removed it since it's in her armpit and I have to wonder with it being that close to the lymph nodes that it isn't already systematic. So the only reason to aspirate it would be to give us a definitive diagnosis but by doing so could seed her body with mast cells. We had this discussion 2 1/2 years ago when we starting finding growths are her. Keep in mind this is a Boxer...a 13 yr old Boxer...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Who's on first...that is a conversation I always feel I'm having with one particular lady at the vet's office. Sweet as can be but it's like pulling teeth to get the answer you need, just seems to have trouble following the plot.









So, Banshee is on 1 pred per day, will start every other day this coming Saturday and has a recheck with the vet on the 26th. Said the panting, at night that is a normal side affect of prednisone, will subside as the pred is decreased but I really didn't understand if it was only on the days she wasn't on it or in general.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I would think "in general" since it probably lasts longer than 24hrs. and it likely has a cumulative effect.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would think that as well but that is not the way she phrased it. Very scattered...sweet...but scattered.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, prenisone "therapy" would have to be considered as a large picture, ongoing process, not just one day at a time.
I believe you can have side effects for probably 2-3 mos. after stopping it.

Panting can be pain as well, or just a simple matter of being too warm. Pred. may accentuate the feeling of being too warm. I never saw that as a side effect, or didn't notice it.
I saw increased appetite and I swear it was Pred that gave my Dachshund Cushing's disease


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My sister mentioned prednisone causing Cushings in people if you stop taking it suddenly so that is entirely possible that it caused your dog's Cushings.

Panting is a listed side affect of prednisone and quite common from what I'm reading. Seems to be worse at night. If she were in pain, I doubt she'd be jumping around and I would think that she would be panting during the day. The onset of the panting is always in the evening, which also seems to be common. I've read several theories on why but nothing from reliable source.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We've started to decrease her dosage to 1 pill per day. She's still very restless, panting and now really whiny at night. I think the whining comes from being restless. We start every other day on Saturday. I"m going to discuss with the vet the dosage. 20 mg seems to be a standard dosage but it seems high to me. My daughter was taking 10 mg pills for her asthma. I wonder if a lower dosage might work to keep the MCT under control. Also read that the methylprednilisone doesn't have the side affects as pred so that's an option.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Update: Banshee's limp was gone, acting like a 2 year old, and her mass had shrunk to the point that you and to search for it to find it. Doc said because of the way it reacted to the prednisone that he felt it was not a MCT and was a type of tumor that was typically benign. She's been off the pred for a week now. The plan is to see how she reacts....does the pain come back? Does the mass grow again?

I can see her slowing down and looked like she's limping slightly last night. I'll watch her over the weekend when I"m home more to see how she's doing. I think she'll end up on a maintenance dosage of 10mg every few days.


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Update: Banshee's limp was gone, acting like a 2 year old, and her mass had shrunk to the point that you and to search for it to find it. Doc said because of the way it reacted to the prednisone that he felt it was not a MCT and was a type of tumor that was typically benign. She's been off the pred for a week now. The plan is to see how she reacts....does the pain come back? Does the mass grow again?
> 
> I can see her slowing down and looked like she's limping slightly last night. I'll watch her over the weekend when I"m home more to see how she's doing. I think she'll end up on a maintenance dosage of 10mg every few days.


I'm glad she was feeling better. It does sound like some prednisone should be taken. Irregardless, glad there is positive signs!!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Banshee...Banshee...Bansheee...what can I say. 

Her birthday was Wednesday. She's now 13 years old.

BW done today.

CREA is back in normal range of 1.2. 

Doc said that happens. The CREA will level off, body makes adjustments and the CREA will drop back down.

BUN was high but he wasn't concerned because she had just eaten. 
All other values in range.

He said she was one of the oldest Boxer they had ever had. There was a 14 yr old once but that's it. _ 

*Tough ole bird.*_


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## KSdogowner (Jun 22, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> Banshee...Banshee...Bansheee...what can I say.
> 
> Her birthday was Wednesday. She's now 13 years old.
> 
> ...


That is A W E S O M E news!!!! Happy belated Birthday Banshee!!!! I know this has been a tough ride for your family. So, so glad to hear Banshee is doing much better.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Happy Birthday Banshee!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Banshee is having a really rough night. She's stumbling, going to lay down in corners and really disoriented.  We finally got her to lay on the couch and settle down. Sierra was sticking really close to her.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Oh no  How is she doing now? Sending so many good thoughts for you all :hugs:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Part of the problem is her back was hurting her again. I gave her a tramadol and Scott gave her 5 mg of pred for the inflammation. I don't know why my husband thinks I"m a vet. He asked me if I wanted him to give her pred this morning. ummm...I don't know. How about you call the vet and work out a plan? LOL

The other problem is she's just very old and sometimes gets lost. When let outside, she just stood there in the same spot for 15 minutes staring out into the dark.

So, she is better this morning..mostly due to the tramadol and I"ll run over at lunch to pick up some turmeric for inflammation. He needs to order the Zeel for the pain tonight. But she's still a little lost.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Just sent you a PM.


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## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

I'm glad she is feeling a bit better. Happy Birthday, belated, pup!


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Just wondering how Banshee is doing?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Good! We have her on 5mg with little side affects. We do that for 10 days and then 10 days every third day. Started her on Dasuquin and need to order Zeel and Traumeel for her today.


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## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

I'm pleased to read that


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Banshee just had a seizure. The vet said to watch her, keep her quiet. It could be a fluke thing but most likely given she's a senior that there is an underlying condition such as a brain tumor. She named off a couple other underlying conditions. I'll have to make a appt for Friday when they open on Tuesday.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Posting her seizure thread just so I can tie these posts together in the future

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/279514-after-seizure.html


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## Mac's Mom (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm really sorry you're going through this.


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