# 6 months and choke chain training



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Here is this issue again. In a month Anton will be 6 months and I will be taking him for obedience class, actually it's called a leadership class (the school and this particular class was recommended). After the registration I have recieved the class info and discovered that the choke chains are required during the class. I really don't know if it's a good idea since in the past I had a bad experience with using a slip collar on my other dog Yana. 

Anton is a great puppy, extremely food motivated. When he starts pulling just a simple stop and telling him 'slow' works. I informally teach him attentive healing with food and he's doing wonderfully. I don't even need to pop a leash on him since the distractions to food or toy (sometimes) and watch me command works very well with him. His worst habit right now is getting excited and barking if we are too close to another dog (not just passing by but if two dogs are waiting and close to each other) and it's excited barking, not fear. Again, ignoring and redirection works so far, and I have a very happy puppy with me right now. 

I was thinking to reserve the prong collar and corrections for later times after he absolutely knows what is expected from him, and here it seems that they teach obedience using the choke. I have done that with Yana so I know it works but I am afraid I will destroy the bond I have with my puppy right now and kill all the fun of learning new stuff for him. What do you think? Am I too paranoid?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Would they let you use a fur saver? (Then you could attach the leach so that it doesn't "choke" but works like a "regular" collar instead.)


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

thanks, Tracy! I will ask about that. I prefer prong myself but I'm just afraid it's too early! I'm afraid that they will demand to put the leash on a live ring and the training would be to wait when the dog makes a mistake and then jerk the leash. The result will be a reluctantly obedient dog that doesn't want to look into my eyes (I'm still retraining Yana to love doing obedience).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, this isn't much help but I won't take my dogs to a training facility that makes blanket requirements about what tools or methods I can and cannot use.

In your case, I would put him on a simple nylon martingale. I'm hoping that their reasoning for a choke is so that the dogs cannot slip their collar. In most beginner level obedience classes I've been to, pretty much everyone is using a flat collar that is fitted way too loose, or they have a hyper or reactive dog flipping like a fish and backing right out of his collar. A properly fitted martingale ensures the dog cannot slip the collar, but has a limit so the dog cannot choke himself or damage the trachea with too much or constant pressure.

I don't use chokes of ANY kind for training or corrections (I do use slip collars and slip leads for ease and simplicity but only on Kenya who is trained). I think you are right to use a prong instead and wait until you have something in mind to use it for, not just slapping it on the puppy. The prong is a martingale collar.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

Can you call the trainer and see if he/she would be willing to make an exception for your puppy, or possibly go watch a class to see how everyone trains? Maybe they are more flexible than it sounds on the class info.

If not, I'd find a different class. Choke chains have become a thing of the past and it sounds like you're on the right track doing everything motivationally now and then adding the prong much later.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Liesje and phgsd, thank you for your input. I will call the trainer tomorrow and ask questions. It's more than an hour one way so for me it's hard to go there just to watch. I hope they are flexible. I do not want to use a choke because if I'm not comfortable with this tool I won't be able to use it correctly anyway, even on an adult dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ask why the requirement. If it is required to prevent a dog from slipping the collar, then ask if a martingale type collar would be ok instead. 

I have used choke chains for different reasons. I do not see them as necessary for young pups. prong collars are supposed to cause less injuries than choke chains. 

However, the prong collar cannot be used in AKC performance events, but a choke chain can be.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

I'm with Lies - I would question any trainer requiring the same equipment for all dogs and all ages of dogs.

Ask a lot questions. Why a choke collar. What style of training do they use. Can you watch a class or speak to a prior student.

I thoughtwe were long past the days of assigning equipment.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wish the trainer in the puppy class I went to with Jenna required a specific type of collar for all the dogs. 

The puppy class turned out to be general obedience with mostly adult dogs. Jenna was ten weeks old. 

The very first class the full-grown yellow lab slipped its flat collar twice and attacked Jenna both time. 

Until a trainer knows what they are dealing with (dogs and handlers), dogs should be contrained with some type of method where they cannot just slip out of it. 

That is just an opinion.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI
> Until a trainer knows what they are dealing with (dogs and handlers), dogs should be contrained with some type of method where they cannot just slip out of it.


I agree. But, a "choke chain" is NOT the only type of collar a dog can't slip out of.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI wish the trainer in the puppy class I went to with Jenna required a specific type of collar for all the dogs.
> 
> The puppy class turned out to be general obedience with mostly adult dogs. Jenna was ten weeks old.
> 
> ...


Well a good trainer should make suggestions and offer some training tools to try. At my first basic obedience class, the trainer looked at what each person had. A lot of people ended up with martingales and she let people borrow hers until they could buy their own. At the club I go to now, they sell everything the trainers recommend (usually easy walks or martingales), so the dogs can be fitted right there during class.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your comment and my son's experience with the so-called training classes are why I am a bit negative on enrolling my GSD's in these sessions.

Frankly, most of the trainers I have encountered know less then the folks on this board, and I see no reason why your pup needs to arrive with a chock collar.

From your response it sounds like your pup is doing just fine, so socialize the dog and spent that time wated in training classes working with your dog. You will also save a few dollars.

You are not to paranoid, and your opinions about your pup are right on. The excitement and barking at six months is quite normal.

If it continues you can correct it.

Also, I see no reason for calling the trainer and asking him/her about the chock collar. If that is their approach fine, but drop it. That requirement does not help a pup.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzer Jenna was ten weeks old.


Ten weeks is too young to be in any type of structured training class. First of all, the pup is still bonding with you as it's new parent and leader, does not have enough attention span or a developed enough brain to absorb training, and probably most importantly - has not had all its shots and should not be around other dogs for any length of time.

PS - if the trainer was worth anything, they would not accept a 10 week old.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

We took Kuno to the local trainer when he was still very young (about 3 months I think). We were in a class that was mostly other puppies, several GSDs, etc. They also required a choke collar or prong collar. Their method of training is constant leash corrections, sometimes fairly violent. The woman who owns the business and leads the training is pretty competent, but she had an "assistant" there that was way too extreme in her corrections. She was always on the borderline of abuse.

We dropped out about half way through, because of the above, and also that the class was just too full and there were too many distractions for puppy and owner alike. I have to say that what really disappointed me was that we never even got a phone call asking why we stopped coming. I guess since we paid for the whole course in advance she already had what she was after from us.

This has turned me off to dog trainers and anyone who wants to tell me how to train my dog. My opinion is, get to know your pup and what methods seem to work best and use those. If you can find a good trainer that will help you using the same or similar method then you're lucky - but the minute a trainer takes a "my way or the highway" attitude, I choose the latter immediately and don't look back.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepWe took Kuno to the local trainer when he was still very young (about 3 months I think). We were in a class that was mostly other puppies, several GSDs, etc. They also required a choke collar or prong collar. Their method of training is constant leash corrections, sometimes fairly violent. The woman who owns the business and leads the training is pretty competent, but she had an "assistant" there that was way too extreme in her corrections. She was always on the borderline of abuse.
> 
> We dropped out about half way through, because of the above, and also that the class was just too full and there were too many distractions for puppy and owner alike. I have to say that what really disappointed me was that we never even got a phone call asking why we stopped coming. I guess since we paid for the whole course in advance she already had what she was after from us.
> 
> This has turned me off to dog trainers and anyone who wants to tell me how to train my dog. My opinion is, get to know your pup and what methods seem to work best and use those. If you can find a good trainer that will help you using the same or similar method then you're lucky - but the minute a trainer takes a "my way or the highway" attitude, I choose the latter immediately and don't look back.



Max and I went through a same type of training, but, the corrections were made for the "sound", not the force, and there were only 8 dogs per class, Max was trained military style, sorry to hear that an assistant ruined it for you, its an excellent method of training if taught correctly, we were told to buy the German made chokers they release much quicker and have a distinct sound, but I decided for the prong is much safer for my boy and girl


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LedZep, sorry but I wiped the slime off of Jenna when she was born so she was pretty well bonded with me ten weeks later. Three years later, she is still well bonded. 

I signed up for a "puppy class." This woman told me that she defines puppies as dogs under five months old, then they are adolescents. When I got to the class and had the only animal less than a year old, you better believe I called her up that night. 

Ten weeks is not too young for a puppy class. Jenna was not too young for a basic obedience class given that I chose to do what I felt she was capable of, for as long as I thought she was capable of doing it. After a second session with the monstrous lab, the trainer did split me and the little foo foo dog that wasn't there the first night into our own class. 

My pups do not have the full complement of shots until they get their rabies shots between 16 and 18 weeks old -- that might even be put off a little longer from now on. But the girl had two sets of shots and that is really enough to get them started on. 

Timber1, I am sorry but I have to totally disagree. Having trained six puppies in the past two years, I think I know how to train a dog to sit and down and well (let's leave "heel" out of this). I do not NEED a trainer, but my dogs do need the classes with the other dogs and the other dog-friendly people there. 

It all depends on what you want to do with your dog. If your dog is going to stay in a kennel or on a chain in the back yard and take occasional spins around the block on a leash, then going to obedience classes is overkill. If you want to take your dog to pet stores and dog parks and take them off-lead to parks that allow that sort of thing, then I think obedience classes make sense. If you want to title your dog, then working them in a class setting is a must. 

No way should you take a green dog out into a busy show where there are people and dogs of every size and shape milling everywhere so that the only place you can relax is your couple of minutes in the ring itself. 

Dog classes are also helpful, for house dogs, dogs that are taken to the vet, dogs that are taken in to be groomed by someone they do not know, dogs that are boarded. 

There are plenty of things you can teach your dog in a vaccume. But at some point it makes sense to get them out where they will see others (dogs and people). And it makes it that much easier if the other people are also learning. They tend to be a little more careful, a little more knowledgeable and a little more forgiving than the average Joe on the street. 

In my ideal dog breeding setting, a requirement for puppy buyers would be that they have paid up front for 1 year of dog training at a local (for them) dog training fascility, and have $3000 in trust at their local vet. Unfortunately, I would never sell another puppy. 

But I truly believe that if everyone who bought a puppy was required to go through three or four sets of classes: Puppy kindergarten, Basic Obedience, Advanced Obedience, CGC, Begining Agility, Begining Herding, etc., there would be almost no dogs dropped at shelters.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Super post, Selzer.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Selzer some people especially a novice person with a GSD can reap benefits from going to puppy class. First it is usually a nice place to socialize, in most classes you do meets and greet with fellow students like you are outside walking your dog. It gets pups use to people and other pups/dogs approaching them.

Also some people work better with some guidance, if you can do your training fine, but I don't think you should advise people not to go to training classes. 

I don't really like the use of the choke chain and would hope that the OP will try to find another training center.

Val


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Selzer, regarding your comment which follows:

Timber1, I am sorry but I have to totally disagree. Having trained six puppies in the past two years, I think I know how to train a dog to sit and down and well (let's leave "heel" out of this). I do not NEED a trainer, but my dogs do need the classes with the other dogs and the other dog-friendly people there. 

The so-called classes have been a waste of time and $$$. As I said so many times before when my Germans are out playing in the yard as many as 5-7 dogs also attend. A Mastif, A Chow, of course a few labs, an adopted dog from Hurricane Katrina, etc.

Timber, again as I have said so many times has also been in crowds as high as 50,000 (Ducks Unlimited, Oshkosh, WI.) and his behavior has been perfect.

He now goes to the nursing home my father is in, and the old folks love him. 

Has there been some problems, absolutely, but this board has helped me resolve those. 

As for classes, I am suprised at your response, inpart because the rescue dogs I take, with their so-called certificates need to be re-trained.

I could elaborate, based on the experience of others, but most of these so-called classes do more harm then good, and then is somewhat apparent from reading this board.


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## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

Timber - I'm very sorry training classes did not work out for you. However, to make a blaket statement that MOST classes are not worth it is unfair.

Just like anything else, there are good and bad. We get a lot of repeat handlers in our classes - sometimes with a new, young dog after losing a faithful friend and sometimes just because the classes are great for working under distractions and for bonding - and they are fun!


Let's try to keep an open mind and just say that not all dogs and not all handlers need the classes. For those who have a lot to learn, who enjoy the time spent in the class or who's dogs will benefit from working around other dogs, classes should be safe, educational experiences. If not - blame that instructor, not all instructors.

I don't know what I like more - taking classes or teaching them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've taken 8 training classes with Kenya and 1 with Coke (and am currently in 2 more with Kenya). So far only one of the 11 classes I would consider 1 of them maybe not worth my time (but I kept going for the socialization and working around distractions, even if we didn't learn anything new), and I expressed my concerns to the people that organized it and they largely agreed with my complaints and are working to change the way the class is done. Several of the people in my classes are CPDT and/or NADOI endorsed trainers themselves. I've become heavily involved in both training clubs I attend, so my opinions matter and I have a say in what classes are offered and how they are taught. Dog training and socialization is a HUGE priority to me so I've made a big effort to invest a lot of my time in this aspect of my dogs' lives. If there's something I don't like about a class, I let the director know so that things can be improved for next time, rather than just quitting and telling people it's a waste of money. I've referred several people (GSD people too) to my trainers and so far have only heard great reviews from them. So I cannot agree that training in general is a waste of time and money. Like a lot of things in life, the first club you pick might not be the best pick. There are half a dozen clubs within 10 miles of my home and yet I drive 45 minutes each way 3 times a week and 1.5 hours each way once every two weeks. The first club I tried is not where I ended up.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Please remember, I did not say all, I said most. In part because I honestly think most of the people on this board would do better without training classes.

Nonetheless, as some of you may remember I did hire a behavior specialist to evaluate my GSD, and her advice was extremely helpful.

I have also had a bad experience, as had my son. 

So on balance if you are willing to spend the time socializing and training your GSD, I would take that approach.

Finally, my last three rescues has passed some time of training. However, the little they still remember I can re-inforce in a few days.

Obviously, there are good instructors, but for basic training I tend to feel the dog's owner needs to make the effort; ditto for socializing.

Extreme problems, a different issue, and I would look for the best person I can find.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> Obviously, there are good instructors, but for basic training I tend to feel the dog's owner needs to make the effort; ditto for socializing.


Right, but that's provided the owner knows how to do basic training. The lower level obedience (and even rally or agility) classes I have attended have really been the trainer showing the owner how to train the dog. Some people admittedly don't have a clue, especially if they've never had a dog or a GSD before.

If the dog is reactive or is too distracted for the owner to feel like anything is being accomplished, don't bring the dog. I've audited an obedience class (went to class by myself for 8 weeks) and still learned just as much as I have in classes I've done with my dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Val, Please re-read my post. If you still have a problem with it, ok then, we have communication issues. 

Timber, I am really sorry that you are violently opposed to classes. I will assure you that I have taken more than 30 sets of classes in the past few years and not a one of them was a waste of time or money. I do not scive off either. Generally, unless something catastrophic happens or I am showing (on Saturdays), I make my dog-classes. 

If you want start a poll and ask people in a neutral manner whether they felt dog classes were worth the time, money, and effort. And then we can get a true feel of what people on this site feel about dog classes. 

There is a problem and that is that ANYONE can put up a shingle and call themselves a dog-trainer. There have been some infamous ones discussed on this board -- the woman that put shock collars around the genitals, and the woman that killed the puppy in front of the owners. But these are extreme cases, that made national news. This is not the norm. 

Some people may feel they have a knack with dogs and call themselves a trainer and stick with the old tried and true choke chains and alpha rolls, and most of us would probably leave such a class and find another. 

In some of the more populated areas, people can be more demanding and expect their trainers to be certified by some type of training association. 

I am happy if the trainers actively train their own dogs and show them in obedience, rally, or agility, or some other dog sport that I am interested in. They have to have done more than get a title and a CGC, they have to be involved in dog shows, judging, or stewarding, or presiding at the events. They have to be up to date with modern methods and open minded about training techniques, equipment, etc. They also have to be able to take it if I do not choose to accept their advice.

With the help of a behaviorist/trainer whatever, I am glad that you have been able to get Timber where you want him to be. Because currently I really do not have any major issues, I feel that a class with other dogs and their owners makes a lot more sense for me. It also probably makes more sense for any one who is not experiencing serious issues with their dog. 

Sue


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

"Obviously, there are good instructors, but for basic training I tend to feel the dog's owner needs to make the effort; ditto for socializing."

I do not believe in anyone teaching a dog but its owner. Sending a dog away for training is completely out of the question for me. But that does not mean that the dog and owner cannot attend an obedience class and benefit from it. 

You mentioned that a lot of rescues have certificates and still need to be trained. True. Dogs can be trained for the situation they are in and for the people who trained them. New people will have to be trained to manage the dog and the dog to manage the new people and new environment. The idea that you can take a living being home and it will be 100% perfect with you is a bit much, but unfortunately, there are a lot of people who think that that is how it works.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Selzer, sorry I did misread your post.

I can train my dogs, I have taught some classes, but the class setting is usually a nice controlled environment where it is a good place for good socialization encounters.

Have I had nice solid reliable dogs without going to class, yep. But for me living in the country it gives my pups a change of scenery.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I agree and that does not mean to imply there are not good trainers. But, if you are willing to spend time with your dog, you will do a better job.

Slezer, mentioned in a subsequent post that if you want the dog to react well among crowds, be competitive, etc. training is a must.

Aside from the competitive part (ScHH) I disagree.

My German Sheoherds do well in crowds, and are both now certified to visit nursing homes, etc.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I agree and that does not mean to imply there are not good trainers. But, if you are willing to spend time with your dog, you will do a better job.


I'm not really sure what this statement means....that if one goes to a training club they are spending _less _time with their dog? If so, I disagree. Saturday a dog show all day, Sunday I walked Kenya to my Grandpa's apartment to socialize with family, Monday night was agility, last night we had a private lesson with a trainer at a park, then stopped to let the dogs run off lead on the way home, then I walked Kenya, tonight is a softball game where I take Kenya for socialization, tomorrow is APDT advanced rally class, Friday is Schutzhund club.....plus all the daily exercise, walks, training, and agility we do at home. And that's just ONE of the dogs. 

I don't see how the dog's training and socialization can suffer by taking classes at training clubs or that taking classes means someone else is training the dog, quite the contrary.


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## artisgsd (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LedZep
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: selzer Jenna was ten weeks old.
> ...


Ooh, I strongly disagree. Training at this age IS all about bonding...training at any age is bonding. This is why we make our new adopters take their new dogs for training. It's not about what they learn in the class, it's about creating a bond between new owner and new dog. 

They do have the desire to grown and learn at this age, I think you'd be surprised at how much they will pick up if you try. Shaping behaviors is fabulous at this age. It's also great socialization for them.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I agree and that does not mean to imply there are not good trainers. But, if you are willing to spend time with your dog, you will do a better job.
> 
> Slezer, mentioned in a subsequent post that if you want the dog to react well among crowds, be competitive, etc. training is a must.
> 
> ...


It's too bad you haven't been around some of the great training places that are out there. I'm not sure there is a better format for distraction training than in class. 
Just because you take a pup/dog to classes doesn't mean you spend less time with them







for many it means they spend more time


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Barb,

actually I have, some of the good ones and some not so good.


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## assortedagility (Jun 21, 2008)

IMO, you should ALWAYS sit in and watch a class before you register to participate under a trainer. This will sort out and answer the questions and worries you have. If they do not allow you to sit in, that is the first sign of someone you should run far, far away from. If they have nothing to hide, they will let you set in. And when you do sit in, you can see for yourself exactly what is taught, how things are handled, the environment and temperament of people and trainer towards their dogs, and if it is a class you would like to participate in. 

IMO, 6 months is too young for a choke. At 6 months, especially when you've been working with yours since a puppy, they are still very impressionable and trainable. There's no need for it for your particular dog, IMO. In addition, you've already made it clear that these methods have damaged your other dog, so I would steer clear. Are there any other classes in the area?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thank you again for all your input. I do think that classes are important and give puppies' minds challenge and distraction, plus I can see how they behave in different conditions. 

I won't agree for a choke for Anton since even a pop on his flat collar is a major deal for him and he responds to my voice and encouragement. Unfortunately, there is not lots of classes for pups around here: Petsmart, two more trainers with no treat/choke chain training and they don't separate puppies from other dogs, and our dog training club that have good classes and qualified trainers but they don't have any puppy classes available this summer session. In the fall he will be old enough to join classes for young dogs with the club. Gosh, I feel like I'm living on the Moon here, even a dog trainer is a luxuary so no wonder shelters are never empty









The only thing is that the trainer and the facility is very respected and it's not like the dogs are abused there. I wrote them an email and I will wait for the response before deciding anything.

Also I've seen two dogs that went thru this class and they are wonderful and their owners liked everything. The only thing that those dogs were not pups when they took the class.


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## assortedagility (Jun 21, 2008)

Well, if that is so, I believe you have done the smartest thing. I do hope the trainers are the kind that will allow you to tend to your individual dog's training needs. Chokes should NOT have to be required, though I would expect if they'd allow you to slip past that rule, that you take their direction in most everything else they teach. And if you find that you should not and cannot to maintain your dog's mental safety and health, it would be wise to leave the class. If you find your dog excelling and learning quickly and enjoying it, all the better!

I wish you the best of luck! And though you are already registered, it still may prepare you better to still sit in on a class to observe.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Barb,
> 
> actually I have, some of the good ones and some not so good.


I must have misunderstood all your posts.
They read to me that if you could do it at all yourself you shouldn't bother with classes.
That tells me that you haven't been in great classes 'cause if you had you'd know that they're worth every moment and much can be learned/taken/used/etc in class that you can't get on your own.

Now do some of the members need to spend time in classes with their dogs? Probably not but I'm guessing that the much higher % of board members could take much from great classes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.
> 
> 
> Timber1
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think the trainer I go to goes to other people's classes so she can train and socialize her own dog for a change. In class she will often bring one of her calm older dogs who can stay on a down during the class until required to demonstrate, but no way could she train a youngster while watching us handle our dogs. That wouldn't be fair to her dog or to us really. 

There truly are things that no dog person however savy can see about their own interaction with their own dog. The trainer is there to guide the class and make suggestions to people based on what they observe. Unless you videotape yourself working with your dog you will not be able to observe your own body language, etc.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Barb, just a few quick notes. Via E Mail it is tough to explain how we all deal with our dogs, nonetheless I will keep this brief.

As some may have seen my GSD was enrolled in a class, and also evaluated by a behavior specialist. My son, who owns two competitive dogs, also enrolled then in training classes. My son's oldest dog is approaching World Championship caliber, and the trainer almost ruined that.

On balance, with the exception of the behavior specialist, the so-called trainers knew less then we do. And yes, the lady that analyzed Timber's behavior was well worth it. 

As a rescue I have taken two dogs that were both in training classes. Frankly, I cannot figure out how either one passed. Don,t misunderstand, they are wonderful dogs, but need to almost start over.

Being retired, and having several dogs in the neighborhood, I am also fortunate that they can socialize both with dogs and humans.

So my take on trainers, assuming the owner can work with their dog, is mostly negative. However, that does not mean to imply good trianers do not exist. I just think they are rare, and finding a good one takes a bit of research.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Was your son's trainer the same trainer you worked with? World Championship? Is this obedience, showing, what? I know that if you are training for show, you have to be careful what you teach them obediencwise. For example, you do not want them to sit, every time you stop as you would in obedience. 

Are we lumping Dog Trainers all in one group and because you have had a problem with one of them, the whole group stinks? That is kind of what it sounds like. 

We have to be very careful to remember that people on the whole do not naturally tell you how wonderful someone was. But they are quick to say that someone stinks. "The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft intered with their bones...." There will be no reason for your neighbor to say, oh at training class last night the trainer taught fido not to pull me around. But if the trainer did an alpha roll on a young dog and got bitten the neighbor would be quick to tell you all about it. 

Better to illustrate, if a person after six weeks of obedience training, two of which he missed, fails to have a perfectly obedient dog, he will be quick to say that the trainer was no good, and the class was worthless. While the person whose dog no longer jumps on strangers is not going to shout it from the mountain tops. Partly this is because we are training our own dogs and our success/failure with classes often reflects our own efforts outside of class. But human nature is to claim the positive results as being our fault, while blaming negatives on the trainer.


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