# Calming him down during bitework?



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Hey everyone,

so I think it's time to address my dog's raging drive during bitework.

I included a video (full 10 minutes unedited) of him doing bite work on one of his worse days. His best days are not that much better...

I could really use some advice from the seasoned veterans.

Btw the helper is also my trainer. A great guy. I'd love it if you can refrain from commenting on his work unless absolutely necessary, I really would like to keep it about my dog and myself.

So please, feel free to criticize what I'm doing and offer advice because I'd love to be able to get him under control during bite work.

Some more background: he's 14 months. He's a very very driven dog (even in general - on walks, during obedience, etc). Working out of prey drive (it seems). A great dog but I'd love some advice on getting him under control during bite work.

Thanks!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

saw cheap bites, repeated over and over . 

dog does not need to get a bite given to him. use your obedience !! 
dog goes in to blind , barks , which is all high pitched prey , you call him out to fuss position. 
instead of sending him to the blind --- use your obedience and direct him to do a blind search on the other ones (empty) , have him return to you , and you direct him. 
I don't see driven so much as excited in prey and needing to cap his drive. The driven will prove itself in the work that takes him away from the decoy , the drive to search the other blinds, the drive to work with you to heel past the decoy in blind, the power in the bark, the clarity to call off , the ability to bark and hold without a bite , and no bite -- frustrate and control -- 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Few quick comments... I am not really experienced, but my dog looked similar at times. So based on the first 2 minutes ( still loading the rest)......

Take your dog farther away after the bite.
Down and Out before he starts thrashing.
ask your helper to turn away while you get the down.
you put the sleeve out... then focus on the dog.
ask helper to come in quietly, get sleeve, no heat.
helper backs up, is still, then release dog into a bark and hold.

Maybe get totally away from working in the blind.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

THanks for the advice gagsd and carmspack (Carmspack you always seem to give good advice on this forum - i'd be interested to hear more ideas you might have and how you'd work him in bite work if you were given this dog right now). 

The cheap shots is something we've been working on, and it is a problem I am aware of... On his better ways he controls himself a little better...

So what you are suggesting is after sending him into the blind I should call him back to fuss and refocus on me. In this case, when should I let him have the bite? What would you look for? 

Fussing around the blind is something I need to try and will try next week...

What about the constant whining? Just frustration I guess but what can I do to control it? It's really excessive... Even on the long down he'll whine if he's frustrated...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

NO Bite . He does not need to be calmed in the bite , he needs to be calmed , period. You need him to focus on you. With or without the decoy being there. With or without the sleeve. Don't make him a prey monkey. 
The next bite this dog saw, if I were working him, would be with pressure and presence from the decoy -- put him in fight -- and that would mean lots of build up , with the decoy teasing and taunting and NO bite -- until real power was there.
In the meantime he would have the flame under his rear to get searching the blinds as directed , to work under control . He yips and he gets moved away from what he wants , he will soon quit (as best as he can ) when the yip and excitement becomes non productive. 
I think by and large people start bite work much too soon, much too easy . The decoy is not given the dog any opposition. He is handing the sleeve to him, count the barks and see -- it is a set routine , 6 to 8 barks and then the sleeve. You have turned this into a bark for the toy routine . 

what do you think would happen if you sent the dog to do the blind search and the decoy did not have a sleeve ? would the dog know what he is there for?

what is the pedigree. 

Carmen


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When you've worked him as he was younger, did you calmly pet him, cradle his lower jaw while he held the sleeve? I don't understand why you out him so far down the field. I would out him after a few circles, if he'll hold calmly then out near the helper, and fuss him away. 
His hold and bark looks good, though I would walk in faster and check him if he bites dirty, so he'll know it isn't acceptable(or have the helper do it with the stick). The helper needs to show some aggression without the sleeve, so the dog won't focus on the sleeve, but the helper.

I would do some blind searches during obedience phase, with no helper or sleeves in sight so he won't get all jacked up, but learn to run them. Then you can make one hot when he understands that. 14 months is still very young, and slow going is good, IMO!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

One rule I had drilled into me was "don't let the dog do anything with the sleeve off the helper that you wouldn't want him doing if the sleeve were on the helper." So, the minute he puts that sleeve to the ground, you need to get it away from him. You have a couple of options here, but probably the easiest is to put your left hand on his collar and kick the sleeve away from you. Your helper can assist at this point by making some motion or noise to get the dog to look at him, not the sleeve on the ground. 

Don't stand there over a dead sleeve with him barking--give him something else to do--because him going into a prey bark is what he's been trained to do--bark to make something move--turn and move away in a circle, make him sit or down or make him heel. Ask him to control himself before you go back into work. What I'm saying is you have two options--go right back into drive *on the decoy* (not on a dead sleeve on the ground) or go into obedience.

He's not far enough along in training or capable of capping himself with the sleeve that close to him. So, if you down him, make sure the sleeve is at least 8 or so feet away. In addition, what is going to restart the action for him? It needs to be the decoy or him obeying you--and then you signalling him to go into a guard that will trigger the decoy back into moving and rewarding. If he can self-reward, there is no reason for him to learn to cap himself or to hold that downstay.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I had a dog who "talked" -- he whined, sometimes a LOT. In protection, for now, ignore it. Give him something better to do, something else to think about. Start by practicing capping and quiet in lower drive situations--say in obedience for a ball or 100 yards away from the protection field. He needs to understand that his silence and focus on you can drive you to reward him just as barking in protection drives the decoy to reward him.

Off the field work on defining sit as "sitting still with no whining" -- and reward during silence. Also work on defining down as "lying down with no whining" -- so whining breaks the sit or down as much as does standing up or shuffling feet. If he doesn't understand it or can't do it while doing obedience for a ball, he's not going to be able to do it in protection with the higher levels of drive and higher value rewards.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't understand why people feel they need to "teach" capping. Anyway, I think your life would be a whole lot easier if you learned how to walk up and down your leash. That means you reel it in when you need to and then back out. Most all of what your dog is doing "wrong" you are allowing because your leash is never ready..

Edited to add: and other times you just drop it or hold it and allow him to do what he is doing. You have a leash on the dog, USE IT! lol


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Carmspack - the pedigree is at home but hes from Czech/DDR lines. Stormfront's brawnson was the grandfather if I remember correctly.

Looks like two things need to be changed (for starts):
1. I need to keep him moving and focused. No more trying to have a platz with the sleeve just yet. I'll try to have him out it and fuss him away from the sleeve
2. Get him more focused on the helper (I'll talk to him about it)

Well there's obviously more 
3. Some blind searches before bitework - we actually have been doing that
4. Control those **** cheap shots
5. I think people are hinting here that they'd like to see more defense drive and less of a prey monster... I'll need to start working on that.

Thanks all for the replies! Sorry about the short reply I am typing this from a phone...


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I am not going to try to give you specific advice over the internet, it is impossible, and aside from that my fingers would fall off from typing so much. What I will give is some basic fundemental principles.

1. If you give a command the dog must comply. I see you give a command then beg the dog then threaten the dog but you never make the dog comply. This is basic and absolutely a must.

2. This is time for the dog to work, it is not play time. The dog is much too free, and the training is unstructured. 

3. The dog must get some satisfaction from engaging the helper. Biting a dead fish for an arm and having it come right off is not satisfaction. The dog must bite, then be challenged then ultimately win. This is very important. Think of it like this: which would make you feel like a big, bad MoFo, beating up a 10 year old or beating up Mike Tyson? 
4. I know a lot of people do the run in a circle thing. I don't like this. For me, when the sleeve is not on the helper's arm, the dog should be sitting at heel position and holding it. 
5. Finally, train smart. Why is the helper trying to make the dog out with the stick when you have a line in your hand?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

ayoitzrimz said:


> 5. I think people are hinting here that they'd like to see more defense drive and less of a prey monster... I'll need to start working on that.


It's just as easy to have a hectic and out of control dog in defense as in prey. I'd just like to see the prey (or defense) focused usefully and controlled so you are able to control the dog later on when you will really need it.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Vandal said:


> I don't understand why people feel they need to "teach" capping.


By this do you mean that you shouldn't need to teach capping (because the dog inherently knows it) or because you don't find value in capping?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> The next bite this dog saw, if I were working him, would be with pressure and presence from the decoy -- put him in fight -- and that would mean lots of build up , with the decoy teasing and taunting and NO bite -- until real power was there.
> <snip>
> I think by and large people start bite work much too soon, much too easy . The decoy is not given the dog any opposition. He is handing the sleeve to him, count the barks and see -- it is a set routine , 6 to 8 barks and then the sleeve. You have turned this into a bark for the toy routine


I have to say, I can't agree with this more. Everywhere I go I am asked to work dogs. They are flat, bored, never challenged. The dog in the video does not look over stimulated to me. Like Carmen said, he is getting the sleeve for putting out very little effort.

I will give the helper a break and say he is lowering the level to fit your handling, which, yes....needs some work. The leash is the best tool available but so many people just refuse to use it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Finally, train smart. Why is the helper trying to make the dog out with the stick when you have a line in your hand?


Because he is not using it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> By this do you mean that you shouldn't need to teach capping (because the dog inherently knows it) or because you don't find value in capping?


I just watch people causing all KINDS of problems trying to "teach it". Sure, you can get more power when you cap a dog but I have never had to teach a dog to do it the way I see in these videos. There is this big, long struggle going on. I say sit and that's it...the dog does it.

Edited to add: BTW, I think people have a really WRONG idea about what capping is. It is to bring power. It is "putting power in the pot". It is not a case of simply teaching the dog to control himself .


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I have a suggestion for the whining. My dog is the same way. Instead of trying to get rid of that on the training field, I am removing it from the kitchen. I am taking advantage of the fact that she does it in the house when waiting for something (i.e. breakfast, dinner). She doesnt get to eat until she is 'CALMLY' and quietly in a platz with her chin on the floor. No sound. This took some work, but she completely understands 'QUIET' now. We lost 1/2 point at a trial for her whining during her long down (CDX).


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

1. The dog is kind of young and not quit ready for a h&b IMO.
I would finish the h&b out in the open before going to the blind.
At this point, your dog may always work out of prey in the blind.

2. The dog does not understand what you want. It is not black and
white for him. You have already created alot of conflict with your dog
and unless you get a handle on it this will only become worse. I know
from experience. The dog has really nice drive but not so much that 
it should be a problem. Some of what you are seeing isnt drive it is 
hectic bratty behavior.

3. To different things between capping and obedience. If you sit or
turn off your dog and it drops in drive at all that is obedience.
Capping is different and I do think you need to be able to identify it
and work on it. Most of the time you cant just say "sit" to the dog it
and magically happens without leaking or dumping drive. You at lest
have to understand what it is.

4. What are you working on in the session? H&B, blind search,
control? Work on one thing at a time if it is bringing power work on 
that for the session, grips another session, control can be another 
session. Get the point? Since the dog has nice drive dont have 
the helper stimulate the dog so much when you are doing a control 
session....it will be ok.

It seems you are trying to paint each room in the house all at once. Break it down and take your time. The dog is still young.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

You are all correct, and thanks for the advice... some people put it in nicer terms than others but all advice is great. 

Not making excuses, but to my defense it is the first dog I've ever owned. I probably should have gotten a trained dog already so that I can work on being a decent handler (right now I suck at it, at least in protection). I mean I've owned dogs for a whole 12 months already and doing SchH for a whole 7 months (this time last year I didn't even know what it was), I should be an expert by now (jk) but I'm going to work on it and hopefully not ruin the dog in the process....


Anyway, these are all things I'm going to start working on... glad I have more experienced people to talk to here.


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## mareg (Mar 10, 2011)

You will be ok. If you would have bought a trained dog it would have slipped back in training due to your inexperience. You are learning alot with this dog. Just be thankful that the dog likes to work and will be forgiving.

You arent making mistakes most new people and often experienced people continue to make.

Dont get caught up in looking at the trial sequece as a whole. Break each part down and train the dog for what it is supposed to be showing for each individual exercise. This way you will have a trained dog.

If you focus on just getting the trial routine down you will be doing a two person obedience routine with little resemblance to protection. Enjoy the journey.......


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Thanks for the encouraging words mareg. I'm definitely trying and yes, I did get lucky with this dog. He's very forgiving and I really think I would need to mess something up big time to completely ruin him.

I'll just keep working at it, I'm not one to give up...


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