# Struggling to find what I want ... am I too picky? (LONG--sorry!)



## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Hello, all.

First, I'd like to thank everyone who responded in my other threads with so much advice. You have no idea how much I appreciate all the help. This is turning out to be a much bigger undertaking than I imagined, and now, I'm so turned around and uncertain that I'm almost completely stalled. Hence, this new thread.

Okay, so, I decided to make a list of what I'm looking for in a pup so that I can get some advice as to whether or not I'm being too choosy. BTW, I spoke with my husband about possibly adopting a rescue, and he was very firm on the idea of getting a pup this time. Maybe in a few years when we have our house built on acreage we can look into adopting, since I think it's a wonderful idea.

So, here's my "list":
-Male
-8-10 weeks
-Socialization started
-NOT angulated
-German lines (not American)
-_Possibility_ of Schutzhund training in the future
-Standard (or "smooth") coat. Plush _maybe_. NO long coat.
-Black/red preferred over black/tan
-More black than red/tan (I like "darker" dogs, rather than the traditional "saddle" only)
-Ready to go home near the middle of May to the end of June
-$1,200 - $1,500 (including shipping, if necessary)

The traits I'm having the hardest time finding are the "aesthetic" ones. I have decided, after looking at a ton of breeders, that I just do NOT like the sharply angulated look. I don't know a ton about it, but from what I've been reading, it seems that this may be preferred in the conformation show ring, which is fine--but I just don't like it for me. I find that the dogs look almost hump-backed and crippled in the hind-end, and because so many breeders only show their dogs stacked in that way, I don't even know if that's just how the dogs are built, or if they actually look "normal" when they're just running around. I've seen some stacked dogs that have a gently sloping back and slightly crouched hind-end, and those don't bother me because they look more natural, but it almost seems like, the "better" the bloodlines and pricier the dogs, the more angulated they look. Does that mean, then, that I should look at less "accomplished" breeders? The ones who may have nice-looking dogs, but they don't have titles? I've seen some pretty dogs that I really liked, but weren't titled, and because of the advice I've gotten here, I've completely avoided them--but now I don't know.

The other thing is, long-coats seem to be REALLY popular these days, and a lot of the breeding dogs I've looked at have them--which makes me wonder if I were to put down a deposit on a dog ... would I end up stuck with a long-coated pup, too? So, even if I like the look of a breeder, if a lot of their dogs are long-coated, I've shied away from them, too.

This may be a shallow thing, but I just really like darker GSDs. If no one knows what I'm referring to, I'll find some pics online, but I like it when they have more than just the saddle and a little bit of black on their face. My last GSD had a lot of black, with red on his chest, undercarriage, legs, and a little bit on his face. I'm okay with sables, but I do still have a preference for the traditional saddle--just with a larger area of black. Bleh, I dunno if I'm making sense here. Maybe I'll just post some pics I've found of the coloration I like. Essentially, though, I've found that most of the breeders that do a lot of showing and all their dogs are titled go for the saddle, a bit of black on the face, and the rest is red or tan. I like more black than red/tan, not the other way around.

I'm getting so discouraged. I know it can take a long time to find the right breeder, and while previously, I thought I was limited to breeders within driving distance of myself so that I could visit the parents, etc., I'm now faced with the prospect of just having to google "GSD breeders USA" and start clicking one by one.

I do want to thank the people that have given me recommendations on breeders thus far, and for the people who have also steered me away from a couple that had bad reps. I've looked at every single recommendation given to me, but either I just can't find the "look" I'm looking for, or the price range is WAY out of my reach, or there will be no pups in the time frame I'm needing.

I've seen a few breeders with dogs that are $2,500 on up to $7,000+, and that isn't even remotely in the cards for my family and I. I realize that GSDs are an expensive breed, and we're willing to pay, as I said, $1,200 - $1,500, but that's still a not-so-small amount of money for us, so on one hand, I feel like--for that money--we ought to be able to get exactly what we want. But it's feeling more and more like we're going to have to settle on something we may not be completely satisfied with because we aren't willing to spend many thousands of dollars.

I realize this whole post has made me come off like the biggest whiner in the world. I'm really sorry, if that's the case.  I guess this is just my frustration coming out, and I'm looking for some sort of starting point for my search, or for someone to tell me that I will never find those things in my list because I'm being too picky.

One final note: I've seen that people seem to be _extremely_ against breeders with dogs that have no titles, but I've found a few with dogs that I really liked the look of, and they have tons of pics of previous pups that are now adults accompanied by letters from their owners about how much they love them, etc. Because I tend to like some of these dogs ... does this mean I have a horrible "eye" for GSDs, and that I only like "junk"? I'm second-guessing myself at every step, and I'm thoroughly confused.

ANYway, if you made it this far without throwing your computer out the window, thank you. I just really want to make the right decision, here, and I think I'm more confused now than when I started my search two months ago. hehe

Thanks, everyone. 

Kaci


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Home Traumwolfen - Marsha Seck - board member here....has a litter coming - transport could be probably arranged by meeting part way for some gas money....

Utta is a black and tan, bred to a sable, so some of the pups should be black and tan

Lee


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

kejhix said:


> So, here's my "list":
> -Male
> -8-10 weeks
> -Socialization started
> ...


Male, 8-10 weeks, some socialization, and not overly angulated shouldn't be a problem, especially if you're looking at German lines. Not all American lines are overly angulated, but it's going to be more common than with the German lines. If black and red is important to you you're looking at German showlines, not working lines. And you can find some that you could do Schutzhund with, but it's going to be easier to find a working line dog that will do well in Schutzhund, so these two requirements are somewhat contradictory. The working lines will be sable, solid black, black and tan, or bi-color, not black and red. Finding a black and red dog with lots of black might not be that easy - some have darker faces (Keefer is one), but even a puppy with a very black face will not have as much black when fully mature. 

This is Keef at 6 months old:










This is what he looks like now, at 6-1/2 years old:












> The other thing is, long-coats seem to be REALLY popular these days, and a lot of the breeding dogs I've looked at have them--which makes me wonder if I were to put down a deposit on a dog ... would I end up stuck with a long-coated pup, too? So, even if I like the look of a breeder, if a lot of their dogs are long-coated, I've shied away from them, too.


As you can see, Keefer is a longcoat. But your perception of them being really popular isn't that accurate. Many people (like me!) prefer them, but other than the breeders who are only breeding for particular colors or coat types rather than looking at the whole picture of health, structure, and working character, most breeders are not producing them on purpose. It's a recessive gene, so if both parents carry the gene, approximately 25% of the puppies they produce, (on average), will be coaties, even if both parents have standard stock coats themselves. If only one parent carries the gene, or if neither do, there will be no longcoats in the litter. Keefer was the only coatie in his litter and his half sister Dena was one of two coaties in her litter. If you go with a reputable breeder and clearly state that you are not interested in a longcoat there shouldn't be a problem. Make you understand the contract before you send a deposit - if there isn't a puppy in the litter that meets your criteria you may be able to either have your deposit transferred to another litter or refunded, but discuss this with your breeder in advance, do not assume!

Your time frame and budget may be too limiting. Not saying it's impossible, but the German showlines tend to be more expensive, so finding one in that price range will be difficult. If you're willing to compromise on color and would consider a working line puppy your price range is very do-able. Halo is West German working lines and she was $1200.

And puppies available in the middle of May would have to be born right around now, and for the end of June you're looking at a dam that's already pregnant. That doesn't give you a lot of time to shop around, and many current litters will already have deposits on them.


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Hi, Lee!

There. Those are dogs that I like the look of--AND they're titled. lol I couldn't seem to find both in one package. I am insanely interested in the breeding you're referring to, with Utta and Nathan. I'll be in touch with this breeder ASAP. Thank you thank you SO much! I wonder why they didn't pop up when I searched for GSD breeders in Colorado?

Anyway, thank you very much. I will for sure consider them, since they seem to be just about everything I'm looking for. 

Kaci

PS - Since I'm admittedly new-ish to all of this, if anyone has comments about breeders that have been recommended to me, please let me know. Good, of course, can be posted here in this thread. Bad, I would absolutely appreciate a PM to let me know what I should avoid.

Thanks, everyone.


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Hi, Debbie!

Thank you SO much for all that info!

I didn't know that working lines tend to not have black/red coloration, so thanks a ton for that head's up.  I like black/red the best, but that's not a deal breaker for me--it's only a preference. I suppose my order of preference goes black/red (black predominant); black/tan (black predominant); sable; then "traditional" black/red or black/tan (where the red/tan are predominant). I don't particularly want a solid black. I'm pretty certain I do want a dog from working lines.

As far as the long-coat issue, I did some research previously and did discover that it's a recessive gene ... I just didn't know if GSDs had testing that breeders ever did to determine homozygosity or not, so when I would see a breeder with the majority of their breeding dogs that were long-coats, I'd wonder if I should even contact them, since they might produce predominantly long-coats.

I feel encouraged when you say that if I want working lines (which I do) that my price range/time frame is doable. I do realize that my time frame will make things somewhat difficult, which I've definitely found. Most of the dogs with pups available in my time frame already have reservations on the male pups, so I've been a bit downcast about that, wondering if we may have to wait 4-6 months for a pup.

Thank you, Debbie, for all your advice. It definitely helps me so that I can clarify my "list" and figure out what's most important. 

Kaci


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

kejhix said:


> As far as the long-coat issue, I did some research previously and did discover that it's a recessive gene ... I just didn't know if GSDs had testing that breeders ever did to determine homozygosity or not, so when I would see a breeder with the majority of their breeding dogs that were long-coats, I'd wonder if I should even contact them, since they might produce predominantly long-coats.


If the majority of their breeding dogs were longcoats, then they're breeding for a coat type, not the whole package - two longcoated parents will product only longcoated puppies, so just avoid those breeders. It seems that coaties are more common in the show vs working lines, so I really don't think it's going to be a problem for you if that's the direction you want to go.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Utta - callname Chita - is a super good tempered female and should be able to produce what you are looking for....she had black and tan pups in her previous litter....color should be the the last element in your priority list - tan is not red -but as Debbie said, what you are looking for is going to be in a working line more likely than a show line....Marsha is not all that far from you ....much closer than I am and driving is doable with her in NE (closer to CO) ...

Lee


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Bi-color. D'oh. I've seen that mentioned twice now, but didn't know what it meant, and it turns out THAT is my preference. When I kept saying I like more black than red/tan, bi-color is what I meant. Rawr. I had no clue there was a name for that exact coloration. I feel dumb. :blush:

ANYway, aside from all that ... color actually is the last in my list of preferences. I should have been more clear on that. As I said in a previous reply, I have my "order of preferences" for color, but that's all they are--preferences. The long-coat thing, and the non-angulation ... those are actual deal-breakers for me, while coat color is just something that I have a definite preference for, but will not cause me to pass on a pup I think will be a good match for my family.

Ahh, they're in NE. I was wondering, and planned on asking them when I got in touch. Thanks again, Lee, for the reference.  And thank you again, too, Debbie, for your information!

Kaci


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

kejhix said:


> So, here's my "list":
> -Male
> -8-10 weeks
> -Socialization started
> ...


I wish there were an edit button (or if there is, I wish I were a little bit less derp and could have found it) so that I could have changed my "wish list" in my original post, now that I've discovered there is an actual term for my color preference. lol

Kaci


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Knowing you like bicolors makes it a lot easier. 

Also, you can only edit a post within 15 minutes of writing it.


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Emoore said:


> Knowing you like bicolors makes it a lot easier.
> 
> Also, you can only edit a post within 15 minutes of writing it.


Ahhhh, okay. Makes me feel better that I didn't just miss it--especially because I looked for the edit button for a REALLY long time. haha

And yes ... I'm sure there are now more people who are going, "Oh, bi-color. Why didn't she say that in the first place!" lol I didn't know how to clarify that I liked "darker" GSDs, other than to say, "I like it when they have more black than tan." haha

And I'm definitely glad to see it's a common color in the working lines, since it appears that my wish list falls very much in the working lines category, and that working lines seem to be more in line with my price range. 

I'm hoping desperately that I can find the pup I'm looking for, but here soon, I'm going to post the 2 or 3 breeders that have been recommended to me in the "Breeder" forum to get opinions from people before I make my final choice. 

SO glad I found these forums before I got locked in with a breeder!

Kaci


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## Jo_in_TX (Feb 14, 2012)

I think it's great that color preference isn't as important as temperament issues. However, I just wanted to mention that you might check out the difference between bi-colored and black and tan blanket back (instead of saddle back). Then you'll know for sure exactly what you are asking for. 

Good luck! My baby is a black and tan saddle back and I just lover her so much. Definitely the personality!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Hey man, we all start somewhere.  You have a good attitude.

I agree with Jo, you might want to look into the blanket backs as well. They're common in working lines also. That's what my Rocky is-- blanket back black and tan. He's the one on the right in my avatar.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Bi-colour is not very common - I believe about 5% of working dogs are bicolour? (someone correct me if I'm wrong).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Castlemaid said:


> Bi-colour is not very common - I believe about 5% of working dogs are bicolour? (someone correct me if I'm wrong).


Really? Seems like back when I was looking, every litter I looked at was bi-colors and sables.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Emoore said:


> Hey man, we all start somewhere.  You have a good attitude.
> 
> I agree with Jo, you might want to look into the blanket backs as well. They're common in working lines also. That's what my Rocky is-- blanket back black and tan. He's the one on the right in my avatar.


This is my blanket back black and tan


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

Gah! Color isn't my main consideration, but it does play at least somewhat of a role in my choice ... and it appears I need to research THAT more. lol I had no idea there were this many variations with actual names. haha

I do really like the blanket back ... my GSD before my last (who was a bi-color) was a blanket back, it seems. haha I still like bi-colors the most, but I would say the blanket back would be right after, maybe about equal with the sable in my preference order.

Thank you all SO much for all the info. I know I keep saying it, but this is helping a ton! Love learning more about this breed! 

Kaci


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

Good l uh for on your search. I'm glad you are doing this the right way versus the whole Craigslist hey there is a puppy way! I looked into my pup after the litter was born so I saved the 300 deposit fee so she was 1200. I lucked out we were looking for a female and there were deposits for males and only 1 boy was born and 6 or 7 girls. Color was not super important to me I just know I wanted sable and that is a very common color so no issues there. It may take some time to find your perfect pup but it will be worth the wait. Good luck!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Emoore said:


> Really? Seems like back when I was looking, every litter I looked at was bi-colors and sables.


Were they REALLY bi-colors??

The vast majority that I see advertised as bi-colors are really NOT. They are blanket backs.


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## kejhix (Mar 16, 2012)

I just had a wonderful 1 1/2 hour conversation with the breeder I think I'm going to go with (Planned Litters), and we got into the topic of bicolors. She said that her female (Utta, the one whose litter I'm interested in) looks like a bicolor, but is actually considered a black/tan. She said that the defining characteristic of a bicolor, and one that can be determined when they are pups, is that a black/tan will have tan hair surrounding the anus, whereas a bicolor will be black.

Sooo, turns out Magnum (my last GSD) wasn't a bicolor after all--he just looked like one. lol But, I do really like that sort of coloration, even if the dog isn't a true bicolor, which doesn't matter to me at all. 

Kaci


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BlackGSD said:


> Were they REALLY bi-colors??
> 
> The vast majority that I see advertised as bi-colors are really NOT. They are blanket backs.


Good question. I don't know. A lot of times I was looking at litters prior to birth and the breeder would say, "We expect sables and bi-colors." Either that or they were black 4 day old fuzzbals with brown between the toes and under the tail. Hard to say.


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