# Question



## Tayoh (Oct 28, 2011)

Since I do not know where this may belong... I have been offered a solid black female german shepherd. She has great bloodlines, and is super smart. Her owners are cousins with my best friend, and due to some personal reasons, they are finding her a new home. 

They bought her with intentions to breed. They had done years worth of research and bought the best lineage they could find and afford. It think they paid over $3000 for her. 

I'll start by saying this: I do not have any intentions of breeding this dog at the current time. 

The only way I would even CONSIDER breeding is if 1. She matures into a dog that displays near perfect conformation, size, coat, etc. 2. I find a top-notch male that is as close to perfect as humanly possible. 3. If both parent dogs pass all tests such as hip/elbow, etc. Plus many more "qualifications."

Again, I do not plan on breeding. I do not however, wish to have her fixed at the current time.

She is currently 9 months old. 

The advice I'm looking for is how does everyone in the forum who owns an un-altered female handle her during her heat? Does not fixing a female have any effect on her behavior other than during her heat? Have you had problems with neighborhood male dogs and if so, what did you do about it? 

Any information would be greatly appreciated.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

My current girl is intact. Two others i had were intact. We've never had any problems with males trying to gain access but we're also really strict on where they go. My current girl Shasta had her first heat cycle this summer. She was a royal pain in the butt! She had to be confined to her crate the better part of the time because she couldnt be trusted at all to behave and not pester. She completely forgot she was house broken the whole 3 weeks. She annoyed our male to the point he was more grouchy than usual so our male had to be confined for his safety and hers. Our male is fixed BTW. Shasta was just a total pain. She totally lost her brain. No manners even with enforcement. Whined constantly at our male. We had to rotate their bathrooms breaks because she annoyed our male so much. She was NEVER outside unsupervised and her walks were cut down to nothing for safety. She also didnt clean up after herself and she refused to keep the doggie pants on. She'll go through one more heat cycle before we have her spayed. After this, i have no intention of having another female at all. MIGHT consider a female who has already been spayed but I would rather have males for a good long while.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Keep her inside and away from any male, even recently neutered males (they CAN still reproduce for about a month). 

When you do take her out to potty stay right with her. I have never had a problem with neighboring dogs. But if you leave her in a yard, even a fenced yard, she will be very creative and determined in getting herself bred even if the boys do not manage to get into your yard, she might manage to get out to them. So stay vigilant, and do not let her out on her own. Easy. 

No, I really see no negative behaviors with keeping a bitch intact.

If you must walk your puppy when she is in heat. Put her in the car and drive her somewhere, then get out and walk her, and then drive her home. There is no need to create a path to your door for all of the neighborhood to follow. That helps a lot. 

Scroll down the the breeding section, should I breed my dog. In there is a flow chart. You may work your way around the flow chart and you will see what things you should accomplish with your bitch to determine her breed-worthiness. Your bitch may be breed-worthy, but not on her own merit, not only by conformation. You need to work with her, train her, and put her through some programs to prove that you and she are capable of training a dog to the point of achieving a goal. She is nine months old, get her out there and put a title on her. It will help you to learn a lot about training -- necessary to answer questions from buyers, and it will help you learn your pup's temperament inside and out. 

Good luck with your puppy. I hope she fulfills all of your expectations. Remember that breeding dogs, whelping/raising puppies is just a tiny part of any of our dogs' lives. Our dogs should be first and foremost companions. Whether they are ever bred does not change that. If you never breed your dog, she can still be a wonderful companion. There is a lot to breeding and if you are not in it for the whole nine yards, then it is much better to just say no.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

The only thing I do different when my female is in heat is I don't take her for walks or to swim in "public". Luckily I don't live in town and have no neighbors so I don't have to worry about strange males showing up. This means that she is still able to be outside and exercise just like when she isn't in heat. (She is never outside attended even when not it heat.)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh and I have had a dozen or so intact females, and never could understand why people say they smell or wrinkle their nose about the blood and mess, etc. It was a mystery. And then I had Joy. And Joy went into heat. Ick!!! 

So that depends on the bitch. Joy was awful, smell, mess, yuck. But not all bitches are.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Wanted to add that if you are not in a rural area with open spaces where you can see for quite a ways, I wouldn't walk her. Even if you drive her somewhere, you will have no control over any loose males that might be in the area. And trying to stop a strange male from attempting to breed her is a good way to get dog bit.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Sometimes I feel like a prison guard when both my females go into heat (one right after the other,usually). 

"Hunther - kennel up!"

"Britta -outside!" 

"Hunther - it's medication time!" (Said like Jack Nicholson in _One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest._) (50 mg acepromazine 2X daily...and when she's ovulating, it STILL doesn't work 100%)

Other than that, what Selzer said. Watch her like a hawk, don't let her out of your sight for even a minute.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BlackGSD said:


> Wanted to add that if you are not in a rural area with open spaces where you can see for quite a ways, I wouldn't walk her. Even if you drive her somewhere, you will have no control over any loose males that might be in the area. And trying to stop a strange male from attempting to breed her is a good way to get dog bit.



I have never, not with any one of my many intact bitches, met up with ANY males that would bite me to get at my bitch when I am right there with them. Might they try? Well, maybe and you don't even let them get to the point of sniffing her. 

I have also been in the process of breeding dogs with trained stud dogs, that is dogs that knew what was about to happen and were eager to get on with it. NEVER was I unable to manage the situation, never felt like I could not keep them apart if I wanted to. And NEVER felt in any danger of being bitten.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

selzer said:


> Oh and I have had a dozen or so intact females, and never could understand why people say they smell or wrinkle their nose about the blood and mess, etc. It was a mystery. And then I had Joy. And Joy went into heat. Ick!!!
> 
> So that depends on the bitch. Joy was awful, smell, mess, yuck. But not all bitches are.


 
oh i totally forgot the smell. Shelby was HORRIBLE. I mean if i could have left her outside unsupervised without fear of ending up with a litter in the future, she would have been outside to "air out" through her entire heat cycle. Mia was not bad. She cleaned up after herself and didnt smell. She even stayed off the furniture when she was in heat. Shasta is.... well she's not horrible smelling but she's not pleasant either. I usually stock up on febreeze air freshener anyway but it gets used a lot when there is a bitch in heat in the house. Our male has the worst gas i've ever known a dog to have that wasnt a bracheosophalic dog so the febreeze is necessary just for him to be around sometimes but a bitch in heat.... wild card with smell there.


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## Tayoh (Oct 28, 2011)

I do plan on training her in obedience. I initially wanted a male GSD, but I love this pup. Are females easier/harder to train? And will her unaltered-ness affect her learning like an unaltered male? I would love to train her in agility, and show her (if possible), but I have no idea how to get into things like that. As a trainer, though, I prefer my dogs be trained in obedience even if they're just pets. It keeps them stimulated. I live in a very rural area, but I have seen several intact "mutt" males, and a intact miniature schnauzer stud. 

For anyone who's trained their dogs in agility, schutzhund, or show their dogs, is there any great introduction and help with this on the web? I wouln't know where to start with schutzhund or showing. Agility wouldn't be too hard to start up, provided I could get the equiptment. 

If I brought her home and realize that being unaltered is a risk to she and I, I will have her spayed. I don't want to add to the population of 'mutt' pups, or 'just another german sheperd.' 

My mother's boyfriend is planning on buying a german line GSD in the future, and I'll also be training him. If I could get them both titled, tested, their temperaments right, etc, I would consider breeding, but again, I don't want to be an irresponsible breeder. If I do it at all, I want to do it right. 

Hopefully I'll know by the end of the day what her registered name is so that I can take a look at her pedigree and all. I'll share the information as I recieve it.

Thanks!


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## Discoetheque (Nov 2, 2011)

Heats for my unaltered female are pretty uneventful, really. It depends on the dog, but Discoe is an extremely clean dog about it. I not too often find a couple of blood spots on the hardwood because she tends to backtrack her steps and take care of her own messes.
Most things stay normal for us during the heat, except that she's kept far away from unaltered males. We still go on our walks and train. In group training, instead of our usual carpooling, I'll drive myself so that she's secure in my car and she will always go last, as not to be distracting to any of the boys that have to go before her. Loose neighborhood dogs are not a problem here...they're pretty far and inbetween, so I don't have any worries about us walking and training around home.

As for the ease of training, I think that also depends on the dog. My dog picks things up quickly and retains them decently with the proper repetition at the start. Though heats can fluctuate, we try our best to not plan trials or shows during them. I've never seen any hints of distraction during training, though.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

As luck would have it I just discussed that very topic in our obedience class last night with the trainer (schutzhund)

As a general rule of thumb he feels that females are more sensitive to correction. He said he likes handling/training females because he has to think more about what he is doing (keeps him honest so to speak).

I've always liked animals that were more to the sensitive side and have a female that I'm training with now (in horses I always chose the hot bloods such as Arabs and TBs for this same reason).

Also, with permission from the trainer, I have brought my female to training while she was in heat. She behaved and trained very well.

The downside is they can be less forgiving when you make a mistake....

As always this varies amongst individual animals but as a general rule of thumb my trainer's comments match my personal experiences as a dog owner.






Tayoh said:


> I do plan on training her in obedience. I initially wanted a male GSD, but I love this pup. Are females easier/harder to train? And will her unaltered-ness affect her learning like an unaltered male? I would love to train her in agility, and show her (if possible), but I have no idea how to get into things like that. As a trainer, though, I prefer my dogs be trained in obedience even if they're just pets. It keeps them stimulated. I live in a very rural area, but I have seen several intact "mutt" males, and a intact miniature schnauzer stud.
> 
> For anyone who's trained their dogs in agility, schutzhund, or show their dogs, is there any great introduction and help with this on the web? I wouln't know where to start with schutzhund or showing. Agility wouldn't be too hard to start up, provided I could get the equiptment.
> 
> ...


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

If she's a nice as you've described and you love her, I'd take her in a heart beat. That's a great age to take in a dog.

But I'd take her knowing I was never going to breed and would spay her after she's grown (18 months?). Breeding is a huge world with many pitfalls. And since the best breeders know they are responsible for EVERY puppy they ever breed for it's life, unless you are willing to end up with getting some puppies back and again finding homes for them, and deal with health issues that commonly occur to even the best breeders, and temperment issues that the new puppy owners may or may not be responsible for .............. ACK! :wild:

click this to see what really being a responsible breeder involves --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

I've been raising/training dogs for years now and one thing I know is I'll never breed!!!! Leave it to those who are better able to make it a lifetime commitment.

My dogs don't really change their personalities when in heat. Maybe a bit softer? If you purchase the puppy panty things and put the panty liners in,the mess is minimal. As long as you never leave your dog out unattended, you shouldn't have issues with other dogs (and your other males are neutered). 

They are in heat for THREE weeks though, so it's a timespan to be more vigilant.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> For anyone who's trained their dogs in agility, schutzhund, or show their dogs, is there any great introduction and help with this on the web? I wouln't know where to start with schutzhund or showing. *Agility wouldn't be too hard to start up, provided I could get the equiptment. *


One of the many reasons finding a good club/class for agility is because you will NOT have to initially have any equipment at all. You use the stuff at the training facility.

Though if you do love it like you should  you'll probably get a tunnel, some jumps (you can easily make them of PVC) and some weave poles....


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## Tayoh (Oct 28, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> But I'd take her knowing I was never going to breed and would spay her after she's grown (18 months?). Breeding is a huge world with many pitfalls. And since the best breeders know they are responsible for EVERY puppy they ever breed for it's life, unless you are willing to end up with getting some puppies back and again finding homes for them, and deal with health issues that commonly occur to even the best breeders, and temperment issues that the new puppy owners may or may not be responsible for .............. ACK! :wild:
> 
> click this to see what really being a responsible breeder involves --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


I already know that IF I ever breed, I definitely would take the puppy back in the event that the owner couldn't/ didn't want the puppy/dog any longer. I would actually prefer it that way so that I would know where my dogs end up being placed. I am extremely sensitive to where my rescues are placed, and in the end, they've ended up with loving, responsible families that are the right match for the dog. Most of my rescues are also trained. I also take any rescue back if the new family can't keep it, finds it unsuitable, or no longer wants it. (Contracts to return the dog to me instead of taking it to a shelter or giving it away are a must in my book) 

As for health issues, I have been researching A LOT on that topic. I know that IF I breed, I WILL have my GSD tested for any and all possible genetic problems, and will also go back to look at her pedigree to see if any problems run in her line. I also know that even after testing, and researching her pedigree, problems will occur at some point. At that point, I would be willing to figure out why it happen, to begin with, as well as possibly taking that puppy back and finding it a home where the owners would be educated on it's problem and willing to care for the dog, or keep the dog myself to care for the problem.

And temperment: If it can't be fixed by training, which I know is possible for some things, not so much with other, I would (again) be willing to take the puppy/dog back to place it in a home more suitable for the dog. 

If I ever decide to breed, it would be a choice done to better the breed as a GSD lover. Each dog I bring into my household, even the rescues, hold a special place in my heart and family. They are given the best I can offer, and are spoiled- however, the dogs I've owned are always given a "job" also. The only dog that I "own" (and I use that term extremely loosly, because I do not "own" the dog- it's a part of my family) is trained in obedience, and is expected to work for everything he gets and has. 



MaggieRoseLee said:


> One of the many reasons finding a good club/class for agility is because you will NOT have to initially have any equipment at all. You use the stuff at the training facility.
> 
> Though if you do love it like you should  you'll probably get a tunnel, some jumps (you can easily make them of PVC) and some weave poles....


The only problem I'm having here is where I'm located, there aren't any clubs near. There are other dog trainers that specialize in agility located about an hour or more away, then again, I'm not really looking for someone else to train her as much as I'm looking for a place to work her.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Maybe post the training questions in one of the training forums and we can keep this thread for the in heat females topic.

I have had intact bitches since '85 and I have never found it to be that big of an issue. Some girls are messy, some smell, some are cleaner and don't smell at all. I don't take my in heat females for walks in the neighborhood, but I do continue to train (in SchH) and we still travel to train. Since I don't use the panties anymore (I just crate my girls when they are in heat) I don't train at the AKC OB place when the girls are in. I do go to the park with them to train, but I drive there. Have never had an issue, but loose dogs are something to consider. 

Females getting ready to come into heat can become a bit, well, bitchy. Some can be down right nasty to other dogs. Then once they come in they become lovers. Others show no changes or are nasty the whole time. Heat cycles can affect the tracking ability of some females especially the first few times. Some females become soft and submissive and are harder to work. 

Something to remember is that you can not compete in obedience, rally or agility with a female in heat. You can compete in SchH, but the bitch goes last on the last day in both obedience and protection. They can not do an AD when in heat. You are allowed to compete in the conformation ring when a female is in heat.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I LOVE working with bitches. I like that they are sensitive, and I find them a little easier to train. Starting from the git go, you never need to use harsh corrections or training collars, a change in tone is almost all you ever need. Of course there are bitches and there are bitches. So some might be less sensitive and desiring to please than others. 

I have put something like 13 titles on 9 bitches, and only had two problems with heat cycles interfering with the process. I put a two legs on Heidi in April and wanted to finish her up at our May show. She went into heat. Then I bred her (this was the advanced title). I ended up titling her the following April, same show. And Joy, she was so ready to be titled in August, but went into heat, then she forgot how to walk on a lead. I ended up titling her in December -- low to mid nineties. If I showed in August, I think she would have been high nineties. No biggie. I certainly do not see this as a good reason to spay.


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