# Aargh! Jack jumped into a fight this evening.



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

It took three, THREE recalls to get him out. Dangit dang it dang it. I thought I had him under control 

I guess the good news is that it only took three recalls. He didn't start it. The neighbor's little ankle biter started it, with another neighbors ankle biter that came into our yard and postured. Jack went in to finish it, tho  dangit dang it, dang it!!

But gosh darnit!!!! Jack is the most poorly bred, temperamental GSD I have ever owned. Aloof, what ?!?!?!?

Thank goodness, we are less than a month away from our consultation with Al Longoria. Al and God, please help this dog. 

I can't afford the liability  I mean, I've assumed it and the neighbor's ankle biter has two punctures, which I'm paying for... But gosh darnit, darnit, darnit!!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think my dog has a great recall and is trained well. Tonight we were out in the front yard training and the neighbors sheltie was going for a walk with his owner and toddler. 
They stopped to chat and I kept the line on my dog, because you never know when the other dog will start teasing. My dog was indifferent because the sheltie was neutral as well...but if the sheltie would have started barking and circling his people(as he's known to do often, in herding mode) Karlo would have been turned on/prey drive kicking in.

So sorry Jack didn't call off, but dogs are dogs, and when they are being taunted, some just can't control their instincts. 
Hope the ankle biter will be ok.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Thank you! The punctured dog will be fine. The couple who brought him were especially understanding and sympathetic. It's just the permanent neighbors who are unforgiving. "You can never trust those dogs!" He said. I so thought we had proven that wrong!

Going to roll up the newspaper now, and correct myself. 


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Not that it's ok, but the dogs came into YOUR yard? How are you financially responsible? 

I am glad the other dog is okay, and that you are already getting help. 


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

yeah.... the dogs were doing this in your yard. Seems to me your dog was defending his property. I don't think can fault him for that. He didn't start it but he wanted it done with. Glad one neighbor is understanding. Too bad the other neighbor, who correct me if i'm wrong, is not so understanding of their dog trespassing on your property and starting fights with other dogs.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Not that it's ok, but the dogs came into YOUR yard? How are you financially responsible?
> 
> I am glad the other dog is okay, and that you are already getting help.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I am financially responsible because my dog was off leash, my recall failed, and my dog got to the other one before I regained control... I understand it is my yard, but I also am already aware that there will be strange dogs roaming our unfenced subdivision all summer long, and a lot of them will be weekenders coming up from Houston to visit the lake (dogs we haven't met, and owners who are partying and not paying attention)... so I need to be more vigilant and manage my own dog better. I assumed that responsibility when I chose to move in there, and it was my failure for not having adequately proofed my own dog, even though I really thought I had. Proofed for squirrels, cats, passers by, passers by with leashed dogs, the existing neighbors' dogs (inlcuding Trixie the Pappilon, Flash the rat terrier, Gracie the Poopstarter in this scenario, and even Maggie the across the street neighbors' outta control Boston Terrier), rowdy kids on ATVs, the UPS man, you name it... just not _dog fights_, doh.

PLUS, my across-the-street neighbors who were hosting the trespasser went _ballistic_, and the husband is on the short list for having a stroke per his doctor, and I sure don't want to end up being the neighbor with the untrustworthy GSD who gave Bob a stroke! I'd much rather pay to clean up a couple of abscessed wounds if needed and continue to be the sweet, responsible neighbor with the GOOD dogs if that's still possible


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Stuff happens, that's why we train train train and then train again. It doesn't mean it's foolproof unfortunately  I'm glad the other dog is ok and honestly it is very nice of you to pay for the vet care. I probably would do the same just to avoid the stereotype of being a nasty neighbor


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

KZoppa said:


> yeah.... the dogs were doing this in your yard. Seems to me your dog was defending his property. I don't think can fault him for that. He didn't start it but he wanted it done with. Glad one neighbor is understanding. Too bad the other neighbor, who correct me if i'm wrong, is not so understanding of their dog trespassing on your property and starting fights with other dogs.


You understand correctly. The visiting couple who brought the dog and let it approach my yard were really okay about it all. It was my neighbors who they were visiting who went ballistic. I think the husband has anger management issues. I mean, he was screaming that he would shoot my dogs, etc. Honestly, I think it just scared them to death, and they reacted like a lot of people would.

And yes, I can't fault Jack for it. I was still upset when I posted, and though his breeding is questionable, it is my training and management failure that is the only thing to fault here.

Jack is now back on full-time management, until he can prove he is a good citizen. He has lost all privileges, which in hindsight I granted too easily and too early. He is either on a leash or kennelled (for meals) outdoors The only exception being fetch, and his ball drive is so crazy the odds of him breaking a fetch are slim to none, and it's not like we have dog fights every day after all. 

And since he busted the glass out of a window pane the very next day after the fight, trying to get at two other strange dogs roaming around, he's back in the crate indoors when I'm not home. Also, I evaluated both of us over the weekend, and realized he's been getting away with being way too pushy with me, climbing up on my bed and me, stepping into my path, trying to push out the door ahead of me, etc. Professional help can't come soon enough!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Do you realise, that, in order to train him better you have to have pre-task situation rehersals?


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Do you realise, that, in order to train him better you have to have pre-task situation rehersals?


Nope...just relying on my own (lack of) experience and an arsenal of manuals. Tried residency training with him last year. Three weeks away while I was relocating for work. He was still a fearful rescue at that point, and wouldn't respond to anyone except me, so it was an epic fail and a waste of almost $2K.

Now that my work schedule is back to a 5-day, instead of a 7-day week, and I'm back home in Texas, I have tried to find someone local to teach me how to properly train him. But I'm in a small town in a rural area and can't find the expertise he needs nearby, so I'm scheduled for a consultation with a trainer in Houston whom several people in the forums have recommended, but the earliest he can meet us is May 30th.

It's clear I'm failing the dog, at this point. When I say proofed, I guess I'm speaking in layman's terms...meaning I probably don't have a complete understanding, beyond the fact that we have encountered such and such scenario multiple times and he has been either non-reactive or gave me his immediate attention and returned to me when called.

Admittedly, it's _not_ that tough to keep this dog focused on me. His life revolves around me, and the ball, with the occasional flirt pole diversion. He really could give a hoot about anyone or anything else... except dog fights, obviously. Doh.

I can google it, or it may be farther into my books than I've gotten...but what is a pre-task situation rehearsal?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

It's when everything repeats. One of my previous GSDs, his name was Damire, was like that. It is not very nice when your dog has scars on his face, but that is exactly what will appear if he doesn't turn his darn nose away. He never did. What helped us - when we found first bride...Then he turned selective, started to measure only his sizes. Fortunately, there weren't so many big dogs living around us. And he was all perfect on the training ground anywhere we went, no problem whatsoever.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

If you're here, then you are trying your best and certainly not failing. 
I suggest putting him on a long line when you're out front and practicing with recalls as people / dogs wander by. That way he can't reach them. If hes strong, tie the long line to a tree near the house so when he hits the end of it you don't pull your arm out of the socket.. Hot Dogs are a favorite here when it comes to recall treats.

How have you been teaching his recall?


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> It's when everything repeats. One of my previous GSDs, his name was Damire, was like that. It is not very nice when your dog has scars on his face, but that is exactly what will appear if he doesn't turn his darn nose away. He never did. What helped us - when we found first bride...Then he turned selective, started to measure only his sizes. Fortunately, there weren't so many big dogs living around us. And he was all perfect on the training ground anywhere we went, no problem whatsoever.


I'm sorry. I'm not sure I understand about the first bride?


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

angryrainbow said:


> If you're here, then you are trying your best and certainly not failing.
> I suggest putting him on a long line when you're out front and practicing with recalls as people / dogs wander by. That way he can't reach them. If hes strong, tie the long line to a tree near the house so when he hits the end of it you don't pull your arm out of the socket.. Hot Dogs are a favorite here when it comes to recall treats.
> 
> How have you been teaching his recall?


Affection. This dog is not food motivated. The girls are, but he will bypass a treat in favor of my attention. He will take a treat for a sit, etc., but it seems more to please me that he took it than to actually have it. LOL! He will accept a random treat from the neighbor, but then he almost always spits them out (milk bones and such, which I would rather he didn't eat anyway).

I have a few different varieties of training treats that the girls will go wild for, have even cut up and baked chicken hearts for him, since I'm a raw feeder...thinking that would be more motivating. He just could hardly care less.

Honestly, the recall is about the only thing I did feel solid on, and that's because he really doesn't want to be anywhere out of my sight. He was lying in the grass about 6' away from me when the scuffle started and he leapt up and joined in.

One simple "Jack" and he turns and heads my way, usually without fail. I have heard about the line, but never really needed one. But again, this is my velcro dog, and unless someone is playing ball / flirt pole with him, he is all eyes on me. That fight was just too much of a distraction!

Hmm...just thinking here. Maybe I Never had a good recall, just a codependent dog. Saying that about the ball / flirt pole is making me question. I need to get a long line and practice the recall with the ball as a distraction, maybe?!? Distraction and reward, maybe, since the ball game is the only thing I know of that higher value than my attention...is that even possible?


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

A game that we did to proof recall around the ball is to have the dog on a leash and toss the ball just out of his reach, he'll go to get it, won't be able to get it, and will probably be scrambling towards it or eyeing it.. Say "Jack" or "come", whatever your recall word is, if you need to then reel him into you and praise when he comes back, ask him to sit and then drop the leash and release him to go get the ball. 
He'll kinda learn that to go chase the ball, you need to tell him its ok, so he'll be looking to you and having his attention on you.

With Flirt pole I like having them in down/stay until I say its ok to get it.. Sometimes I'll leave my dogs in down stay and walk 100ft away and tell them ok, just to have them down about 50 ft away and tell them to stay again.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

angryrainbow said:


> A game that we did to proof recall around the ball is to have the dog on a leash and toss the ball just out of his reach, he'll go to get it, won't be able to get it, and will probably be scrambling towards it or eyeing it.. Say "Jack" or "come", whatever your recall word is, if you need to then reel him into you and praise when he comes back, ask him to sit and then drop the leash and release him to go get the ball.
> He'll kinda learn that to go chase the ball, you need to tell him its ok, so he'll be looking to you and having his attention on you.
> 
> With Flirt pole I like having them in down/stay until I say its ok to get it.. Sometimes I'll leave my dogs in down stay and walk 100ft away and tell them ok, just to have them down about 50 ft away and tell them to stay again.


Thank you! I will try this  

Also, I really appreciate you saying I haven't failed him. I know you're right, but its a feeling and it helps a lot to hear some encouragement ?


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I also think you're doing great, and definitely not failing Jack. I know it might seem like you should have better control, blah blah blah, but realistically these things do take time and when you're proofing something it's hard to manufacture the exact scenario you're looking for. Like random dogs fighting on your home turf, lol! It's not like you can just put an ad on craiglist looking for them. Or could you? Lol, jk!

The broken window sucks. I hope he didn't hurt himself with that one. I guess he was still pretty worked up from the fight. There's a member here, Longfisher, who gave me a lead on a trainer in Houston. This trainer sounded very intuitive, and he had years of experience working with GSDs. In case the one you're going to see doesn't work out, I thought I'd mention it. Good luck, and don't be so hard on yourself 

ETA: I actually thought it was very good that Jack was able to recall from the fight. Usually, that's how people end up getting hurt, trying to pull the dogs apart. Good work!


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

e-collar training can be helpful for off lead 'do or die' situations such as this. its a long lead - with a quarter mile range.


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## justallen30 (Feb 22, 2013)

I agree with e-collar training. My female Ava has done very well with it. She is always off leash on my property and she is usually in my shadow most of the time. But I have had dogs go by and she will do a few barks but I put her in a sit or down and she just watches them pass by. This is also worked on in obedience training with good socialization with a good amount of dogs. I payed only 200 for this training and we meet in a park every week. I think it was a great deal!

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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Blanketback said:


> I also think you're doing great, and definitely not failing Jack. I know it might seem like you should have better control, blah blah blah, but realistically these things do take time and when you're proofing something it's hard to manufacture the exact scenario you're looking for. *Like random dogs fighting on your home turf, lol! It's not like you can just put an ad on craiglist looking for them. Or could you? Lol, jk*!
> 
> The broken window sucks. I hope he didn't hurt himself with that one. I guess he was still pretty worked up from the fight. There's a member here, Longfisher, who gave me a lead on a trainer in Houston. This trainer sounded very intuitive, and he had years of experience working with GSDs. In case the one you're going to see doesn't work out, I thought I'd mention it. Good luck, and don't be so hard on yourself
> 
> ETA: I actually thought it was very good that Jack was able to recall from the fight. Usually, that's how people end up getting hurt, trying to pull the dogs apart. Good work!


Thank you for the giggle! And the encouragement 

And in retrospect, I actually am proud that he I was able to call him out of it. I think it helped a lot that the little dog turned tail when Jack jumped in, but it sure was a disaster averted, either way. He just needs work, but I know now that he's not a killer at heart. I'll get him where he needs to be.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Yep. The problem with the e-collar comes when you get relaxed, and forget to charge them and then neglect to put them on the dog, because you think you have achieved your goals. Doh :headbang:

Actually, the residency training I sent both Jack and Lillian to last year was an e-collar program. It worked _wonders_ with the weimaraner. She had zero recall before that, and now I basically only use the vibrate function on the collar as a pager when she goes squirrel sitting out of my sight...it'll bring her back around from the friendly neighbor's side yard without me having to yell my head off. But she's wilful. Sweet as pie, but independent and not really a biddable bone in her wagglebutt body. It has been a great tool for her.

Jack, OTOH, is focused on me and aims to please. The problem I'm having with him is that we had to transition from a fearful rescue into a more confident dog before we could even approach training. And with a dog that I was unwilling to make corrections with, and who was NOT food motivated...well, you can imagine the hurdles.

The e-collar training didn't take with Jack. He was still too fresh a rescue, out of a longbarn with 200+ dogs at eleven months of age. Too many fears, and most especially of the trainer himself  The trainer switched him to positive reinforcement methods, and even click'n' and real chicken wasn't motivating. He finally achieved a sit, a place, walk on leash, and a don't rush the door by using the clicker and _the weimaraner's presence_ as his reward. But we agreed that Jack is super uncomfortable just on vibrate, to the point of distraction, so it's not really the training tool I need for him. Jack only wears his collar now for "just-in-case" scenarios like the one we ended up facing... Emergencies that could lead to accidental death or being PTS.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

One little problem. His ball and yet another disrespectful wagging ******* are not exactly the same thing. I would say, they are very dissimilar. It is not difficult to teach your dog to stop half-way to the ball on command "Stop! Stay!", then ask him to continue his run/walk towards the ball. He would retrieve it, turn back to you, you ask him (with a ball in his mouth) to stop, then to continue walking and place the ball into your hand. You don't need anything to teech him that except the ball. Even if he is ball-mad. This rubber thing drives out only positive emotions.
Dogs are territorial animals, and, when he sees another dog, by calling him back and telling him "No" you are saying to him that his territory doesn't belong to him. His territory stretches from West to East, and from North to South, the posts of its borders are marked dailly, and the dragon of your dog's heart starts hissing with fire just only he smells the intruder to his golden den from the distance. Your Jack rested on the grass. What, you think, was he doing? He was smelling the air, in fact, that is the parallel action to anything else your dog might do all the time, especially outside. The smell alarmed him long befere he saw that dog. He was ready to jump up every second. If I understood you correctly, he attacks in certain situations regularly. So, he gets some sort of satisfaction, he really likes something in all of it. He smells something first (by smell your dog is capable to ascertain to himself the age, state of health, the intensity of hormonal flow and ... the size of his opponent/prey) - he starts running towards - hears your call - attacks - comes back obediently - he is a participant in all that commotion with the abused - and finally he hears "Bad boy!" or some other punishing words, which, probably, he reads as "Idiot! you should have grabbed him by his neck for longer, and you have ripped his hide instead! Bad boy!" When you run after him - you simply support the chase. Jack is a hunter, because he mainly attacks smaller dogs, isn't it so? And his own back yard is his hunting ground, dog's won't hunt on the confusing common territory or somebody else's - that's why he appears OK for you somewhere away from your home. 
The master exercises in bringing to perfection his training skills, while the dog brings to perfection his hunting skills. You don't read each other. Everything you can do - you can change your approach to the task, approach similar situation having something, some people may say "wild", in your mind. Put his muzzle on him and go for a walk hunting small dogs. Hunt them in your back yard. Let him attack. He must attack on command only. He must learn to keep still in waiting and miss the prey sometimes allowing it to pass by. But you shouldn't totally leave him without the game.
What else you can do - you can let steam off ... Find him a bride... You will redirect his nose this way.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> One little problem. His ball and yet another disrespectful wagging ******* are not exactly the same thing. I would say, they are very dissimilar. It is not difficult to teach your dog to stop half-way to the ball on command "Stop! Stay!", then ask him to continue his run/walk towards the ball. He would retrieve it, turn back to you, you ask him (with a ball in his mouth) to stop, then to continue walking and place the ball into your hand. You don't need anything to teech him that except the ball. Even if he is ball-mad. This rubber thing drives out only positive emotions.
> Dogs are territorial animals, and, when he sees another dog, by calling him back and telling him "No" you are saying to him that his territory doesn't belong to him. His territory stretches from West to East, and from North to South, the posts of its borders are marked dailly, and the dragon of your dog's heart starts hissing with fire just only he smells the intruder to his golden den from the distance. Your Jack rested on the grass. What, you think, was he doing? He was smelling the air, in fact, that is the parallel action to anything else your dog might do all the time, especially outside. The smell alarmed him long befere he saw that dog. He was ready to jump up every second. If I understood you correctly, he attacks in certain situations regularly. So, he gets some sort of satisfaction, he really likes something in all of it. He smells something first (by smell your dog is capable to ascertain to himself the age, state of health, the intensity of hormonal flow and ... the size of his opponent/prey) - he starts running towards - hears your call - attacks - comes back obediently - he is a participant in all that commotion with the abused - and finally he hears "Bad boy!" or some other punishing words, which, probably, he reads as "Idiot! you should have grabbed him by his neck for longer, and you have ripped his hide instead! Bad boy!" When you run after him - you simply support the chase. Jack is a hunter, because he mainly attacks smaller dogs, isn't it so? And his own back yard is his hunting ground, dog's won't hunt on the confusing common territory or somebody else's - that's why he appears OK for you somewhere away from your home.
> The master exercises in bringing to perfection his training skills, while the dog brings to perfection his hunting skills. You don't read each other. Everything you can do - you can change your approach to the task, approach similar situation having something, some people may say "wild", in your mind. Put his muzzle on him and go for a walk hunting small dogs. Hunt them in your back yard. Let him attack. He must attack on command only. He must learn to keep still in waiting and miss the prey sometimes allowing it to pass by. But you shouldn't totally leave him without the game.
> What else you can do - you can let steam off ... Find him a bride... You will redirect his nose this way.


I never told him No. I called him to me 

I'm sure he was smelling, but he followed a more reactive dog into the fight. He did not instigate. He joined. 

I am grateful and pleased to say that he does Not attack in certain situations regularly. He has actually Never attacked. He has defended himself, and now, he has reacted. But he has never been the first attacker. 

I have never used the words Bad Boy or Bad Girl or Bad Dog with any if my dogs. It doesn't make sense to me to do that. 

When he recalled, he got a Good Boy and In the House! Then he got a pet and I left him inside to go apologize and calm the neighbors. 

I Do Agree, I can make some serious good use of that ball drive in training!!

Thank you for your response, but I think we are doing better than you understood. 


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Oh, and I don't run after my dogs, either. Running away is much more effective in gaining their attention and compelling them to follow. 

And LOLLLOL! He doesn't need a bride. He needs some more obedience training 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Wow. IMHO I think you maybe being somewhat too hard on yourself. I can only commend you for trying to do the right thing by everybody, neighbors and your dogs!!

Please understand what I say below is not intended to mean you made bad choices in dealing with your neighbors in this incident. I respect the choices you made for the sake of peace and the man with anger issues....I really do...

*BUT*...this is just food for thought, there are some people who will never be happy, never think you do enough and despite all your efforts will still accuse of wrong doing.

This is why I make it really clear with all my neighbors that if their dog goes on my yard anything that happens is NOT my responsibilty.

Our neighbor oftens let's his little Chi off leash in the front yard.

He's a typical untrained little nasty Napolean complex Chi that thinks he owns the neighborhood and I've seen him dash across the street on many occasions.

My dogs are usually non reactive but that little monster just sets them and the whole neighborhood off. 

I've told this neighbor that if his dog comes onto my property and gets bit by one of my dogs I am not going to be responsible. He is responsible not me. I like him and his wife but they treat both of their little dogs like they are human children and that is what causes the problems.

Last night another neighbor had his dog off leash while walking and the dog cruised way up into my yard. I had just got back from training and Ilda was just getting ready to hop out of my SUV and held her in there until the dog passed. She is calm and aloof around other dogs, until they charge up to her on her property. I'm going to have to send an e.mail out to the HOA about this after reading your story.

I keep my dogs off of my neighbor's property because I respect them I expect the same in return. 

I don't like the fact that just because we have the larger dog or the 'dangerous' dog that we are automatically viewed as the guilty parties. This will only enable people who are trying put in place breed bans and BSL to achieve their goals....which is now an ongoing legislative effort here in GA btw.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

David Taggart said:


> Put his muzzle on him and go for a walk hunting small dogs. Hunt them in your back yard. Let him attack. He must attack on command only.


David, I usually love reading your posts because you have a novel approach which I find interesting. However, I'm really having a 'now I've heard it all' moment with this latest one. You can't be serious, or there must be some kind of misunderstanding on my part.

For one thing, forgetting the most obvious issue, the GSD will certainly be able to harm the smaller dog, even with a muzzle on. Not to mention that some of the smaller dogs are quite vicious and can harm the GSD.

The bigger issue is: why the heck wouldn't you encourage this predation in a nice open field where the prey knows what a predator is? You're suggesting somebody's pet? Come on! Tell me I'm wrong, please.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JackandMattie said:


> Thank you. I am financially responsible because my dog was off leash, my recall failed, and my dog got to the other one before I regained control... I understand it is my yard, but I also am already aware that there will be strange dogs roaming our unfenced subdivision all summer long, and a lot of them will be weekenders coming up from Houston to visit the lake (dogs we haven't met, and owners who are partying and not paying attention)... so I need to be more vigilant and manage my own dog better. I assumed that responsibility when I chose to move in there, and it was my failure for not having adequately proofed my own dog, even though I really thought I had. Proofed for squirrels, cats, passers by, passers by with leashed dogs, the existing neighbors' dogs (inlcuding Trixie the Pappilon, Flash the rat terrier, Gracie the Poopstarter in this scenario, and even Maggie the across the street neighbors' outta control Boston Terrier), rowdy kids on ATVs, the UPS man, you name it... just not _dog fights_, doh.
> 
> 
> PLUS, my across-the-street neighbors who were hosting the trespasser went _ballistic_, and the husband is on the short list for having a stroke per his doctor, and I sure don't want to end up being the neighbor with the untrustworthy GSD who gave Bob a stroke! I'd much rather pay to clean up a couple of abscessed wounds if needed and continue to be the sweet, responsible neighbor with the GOOD dogs if that's still possible


It's still not your fault because the dog should have NEVER been in your yard in the first place. It doesn't matter if the re-call failed, the dog was on YOUR property!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

yup. I get that people are trying to set a good example and be responsible but at some point property rights have got to mean something...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> yup. I get that people are trying to set a good example and be responsible but at some point property rights have got to mean something...


Exactly that! 

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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I need to clarify the part about my yard, because I'm starting to feel like a liar, and I didn't mean for that to become the focus. The recall was my focus.

The fact is that it technically was not my yard, at least _not on my lawn_. The trespasser was on the _very edge_ of our side of the street, just _about _to enter the yard when Gracie charged him and then Jack followed. 

So, actually, the fight started a few inches off my grass and into the road easement. Now, here in Texas (absent a fee conveyance to the gov't) my lot extends to the center of the street, subject to the road easement...so it's still legally my property, but it is dedicated to public use. And the fight ended at the opposite edge of the street as the dog was retreating, and when Jack responded to me.

I described it as my yard, because the dog _was on it's way_ into the yard. He _just_ didn't _quite_ get to take that last step.

Now, the boundary I enforce is that my dogs can go right up to the edge of the street, but they are NOT supposed to step off onto the concrete. So I can't be sure whether Jack felt it was his yard or not, but that's what it felt like to me at the time, and I was still kinda shaken up when I originally posted so I didn't go into the details... And coincidentally (maybe), the point at which he was about to enter is right where Jack marks daily, because there's a utility meter handy for him to lift his leg on.

At any rate, maybe that changes the conversation some.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

JackandMattie said:


> I need to clarify the part about my yard, because I'm starting to feel like a liar, and I didn't mean for that to become the focus. The recall was my focus.
> 
> The fact is that it technically was not my yard, at least _not on my lawn_. The trespasser was on the _very edge_ of our side of the street, just _about _to enter the yard when Gracie charged him and then Jack followed.
> 
> ...


I kind of assumed this when I read your first post. I felt like although the dog had entered your "property" you clearly didn't have enough control of your dog that you could stop him before he left your property. So although the dog started out protecting "his" property, he kept going past the property line so to speak and it shows that you don't have control/containment of the animal.

I think you're right to be upset about his reaction and your lack of control of your dog. It will get you in trouble one day as no one is really going to care that the issue "started" on your property. I'm just getting a yard in about a month, so I'm not really "jaded" yet by people coming onto my property...but my thought is that the dog should always be in the back yard or at least a fenced yard if you don't have 100% control of him. No matter what, I don't want my dog ever charging at anything walking on the road or the sidewalk...its just asking for trouble.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I kind of assumed this when I read your first post. I felt like although the dog had entered your "property" you clearly didn't have enough control of your dog that you could stop him before he left your property. So although the dog started out protecting "his" property, he kept going past the property line so to speak and it shows that you don't have control/containment of the animal.
> 
> I think you're right to be upset about his reaction and your lack of control of your dog. It will get you in trouble one day as no one is really going to care that the issue "started" on your property. I'm just getting a yard in about a month, so I'm not really "jaded" yet by people coming onto my property...but my thought is that the dog should always be in the back yard or at least a fenced yard if you don't have 100% control of him. No matter what, I don't want my dog ever charging at anything walking on the road or the sidewalk...its just asking for trouble.


Exactly 

OH, GOOD NEWS THIS MORNING!! The trainer's people saw this thread, and we've been moved up from May 30th to May 11th!! Yaya!!!! :happyboogie:


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## tropicalsun (Jun 7, 2011)

JackandMattie said:


> Exactly
> 
> OH, GOOD NEWS THIS MORNING!! The trainer's people saw this thread, and we've been moved up from May 30th to May 11th!! Yaya!!!! :happyboogie:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

O.K. yeah, It's a bit different if on a public easement. Thanks for clarifying.

As I said earlier, I commend you for the actions you have and are taking, no matter what! (still think you're beating yourself up a bit too much....  ). 




JackandMattie said:


> I need to clarify the part about my yard, because I'm starting to feel like a liar, and I didn't mean for that to become the focus. The recall was my focus.
> 
> The fact is that it technically was not my yard, at least _not on my lawn_. The trespasser was on the _very edge_ of our side of the street, just _about _to enter the yard when Gracie charged him and then Jack followed.
> 
> ...


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

*For one thing, forgetting the most obvious issue, the GSD will certainly be able to h*

It is very unlikely that your dog would be able to harm somewhat terribly wearing the muzzle. The muzzle itself disencourages him. My dog stomped badly a little toy-terrier once, but that's all. Yes, I'm very sorry, a tiny tear drop just started to roll down my left wrinkled cheek. But, which other way could I tell him that the prey wasn't worth chasing? Finally, he stopped attacking when he had his muzzle on, though, there were many electric moments, when my heart trembled. Training him to behave without the muzzle wasn't necessary, he had lost interest with time, and I relaxed. We had some trouble with younger big dogs in the course, but he already learned to expect a call from me. It is easir with large breeds, I had noticed for myself that times. And I let him go ahead with attack when he was failing to recognise a friend.

"Defence" and "attack" are human concepts. The dog always defends something by attacking. He attacks, defending his balls, his territory, his Führer.

Positive training? It turns to be a dead trap sometimes. He was a good boy, because he jumped up in time, reached the object in time, and reacted on your call in time. Good speed. But, this way your dog becomes a constant worry for you, because you might turn your eyes away from him.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> "Defence" and "attack" are human concepts. The dog always defends something by attacking. He attacks, defending his balls, his territory, his Führer.


This makes sense to me  I will examine the concepts further.



David Taggart said:


> Positive training? It turns to be a dead trap sometimes. He was a good boy, because he jumped up in time, reached the object in time, and reacted on your call in time. Good speed. But, this way your dog becomes a constant worry for you, because you might turn your eyes away from him.


Yes, I agree. I was reading the thread on a similar topic this morning. And upon reflection, my statement about not being willing to make corrections is not really true any longer. In practice, there are plenty of times he gets an "eh-eh" from me to redirect. He also gets body blocks and crate time-outs...so I am using a mix of techniques. And I think this dog will require all resources at my disposal. The professional trainer will hopefully help me to gain a much better understanding, and to recognize what *I *am doing that fails to communicate clearly my expectations to the dog.

I do not want to have to spend the next 12-14 years with a muzzled/leashed dog. I pray that he has not been that badly damaged/bred that he will require lifetime management. After all, this was a one-off incident. He is generally an aloof, but friendly, member of the community. All the other neighbors have nothing but compliments for him, and the boys come to play with him, asking by name and they don't care at all to play with either of my girls. He is loved and admired, and not feared. I want to keep it that way!

He is the biggest challenge I have ever faced, but I am grateful. Jack's needs are pushing me to explore a whole new level in the world of dog ownership and training. If I can successfully rehabilitate this dog (and someday get beyond having to do as much management, hopefully before he's a senior), I will have a true accomplishment on record.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

My Damire attacked not just small dogs, but some men of certain complection as well. He never bit anybody, but scared many with his bass. Once I was reported to police by couple at time when I was very short with finances. At the station, one officer was writing, and his colleague was sitting against us questioning me. I knew it all was my falt, but I started to lie, saying that these people simply hate dogs. The police officer frowned at me, he was saying something, when at that moment Damire jumped up, leaped forward, somewhat interesting way his tongue wiggled out from the side of his muzzle and he licked the officer's lips. It happened in seconds. Almost a film scenario! My jaw dropped - "What a .....!" The law was different than nowdays, I don't really remember how the situation had developed, but I didn't pay any charges, only had a warning. So, they are very friendly when they want to.

Muzzle - is a temporary tool.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, a Muzzle is a God Sent for every dog owner, if utilized the correct way. I put a dog to sleep because back then I did not "believe" in muzzles. 

Meanwhile, I've rehabilitated quite a few dogs with the muzzle approach and I WISHED I had done the same thing with my female. 

So what your dog needs to be managed or muzzled anytime you take them for a walk. WHO CARES! Let "them" think what they want. PEople will always have an opinion. 

When I first got my little Mal, she's was highly leash aggressive. She's the sweetest girl off leash and SUPER with dogs. Meanwhile, she's gotten much better but without a muzzle she would re-direct onto one of my dogs. 

Even if I had to muzzle a dog for the rest of his life, when taking him on a walk, in this day and society there is not much room for a slip up anymore. I'd rather keep my dog safe and myself safe from being sued for everything I have than NOT muzzling my dog and take the chance of slipping up. 

If you can't trust your dog, UTILIZE a muzzle, period!

A muzzle is not a bad thing at all. It protects you, your dog and the society.

And honestly, I'd rather muzzle than having to lie to an Officer. 

Austria, for example, requires every dog over 40 pounds (I believe) to be muzzled when in public. It's the law and not a bad one at that.


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