# Devastated, need advice.



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

We got our new baby Saturday, her name is Storm. Within an hour of picking her up, I suspected she was deaf. I shared my concerns with hubby last night, he had also noticed she wasn't responding to sound. Vet check today, vet is positive she is deaf, as well. BAER testing is $250, vet says it's a waste of money, there is no doubt she cannot hear.

Breeder has offered a replacement puppy, or a partial refund, and asked what we thought was fair. I need to get back with her tonight with a decision.

I've been doing research, I know a deaf dog isn't the end of the world, and I know we can train her with hand signals. I will not let her be put to sleep. SHE doesn't know she is deaf.

Our heartache, we have a 3 yr old, he is a bit delayed. It may be a year before he understands to stomp the floor to let Storm know he is there.

What should we do?

Hubby wants to have the breeder replace her with another puppy, and allow *us* to find a home that can deal with a deaf puppy. Breeder says she has never had a deaf puppy before, I do believe her about her, and she did not say what she would do with Storm if we exchanged her for another puppy. I am afraid she will put her to sleep...everything I've read on Google says most breeders will do that.

I am simply devastated. I was prepared for HD, but a deaf puppy never crossed my mind. We ALL love her (hubby and all our kids). I want to keep her, and if I have to, put a basket muzzle on her until the toddler can understand how to alert her to his presence. Hubby thinks that is terribly cruel and unfair to her.

Please share your thoughts, I have cried for the last two hours since the vet confirmed our suspicions. I HAVE to put my son first, obviously, but I need to be fair to this baby too. CAN she have quality of life in a muzzle most of the time????? Can she EVER be trusted not to startle bite?


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this.

Having children and a GSD puppy is hard enough when those kids are 7 and 9 (in my case) and I cannot imagine having one _and_ a 3 year old, and, on top of that, a special needs 3 year old.

I would put emotion aside and look at the next 10 years, and take a replacement puppy and start with the odds more in my favor.


----------



## Sibze (Jan 30, 2013)

As hard as it is to say it I think sunflowers said it best by trying to remove all emotion from it. I like the idea of you finding it a home but the breeder may not want you to do that. 

If I was in your situation with a young child, I would want to be able to get my dogs attention from a distance just in case and for everyone's safety


----------



## Bear GSD (Apr 12, 2012)

I agree , it's a heartbreaking situation. Has the breeder said what she would do with the puppy?


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I agree with the others. A deaf dog presents many challenges, and your human family needs to come first. I would get a replacement pup and let the breeder place the deaf one.

I had not heard of deafness in GSDs. Is she white?


----------



## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

I do not have experience with this issue other than a deaf kitty....no kids in the house so I really do not have anything to offer in what you are asking. I wanted to tell you I have been following your other thread and we all had fingers, toes, paws and hooves crossed for a better diagnosis for your family and sweet baby girl, Storm. I was SO excited anticipating the arrival of our pup so I can imagine how devastated you are.....big hugs. I believe you will need to follow your heart along with your instinct in this decision. I can tell you have a big heart and would definitely give little Storm every opportunity to have a wonderful life with your family. I also want to say if your instinct question whether this is right for your family, then their is no shame in thus situation in not trying to keep her. If you don't keep her, I love hubby's idea if y'all placing the pup in the right hone. Good luck and I hope all works out for the best to you, your family and sweet Storm. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

Are the other 3 senses good on her? One thing is you would never have to worry about storm with fire works, bangs booms and things. You would have to protect her more though. From cars and things like that. You would be surprised how well a dog can get along missing one of their senses. I say this in hopes that the breeder gives her a chance at life.


----------



## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

Wishing you the best with your tough decision


----------



## GSDLover2000 (Jul 9, 2013)

That is terrible. My heart goes out to you and Storm. I do believe you should replace the puppy, but you need to make sure she will not put her to sleep. And you know, why not give Storm to a family that can handle a deaf puppy, and then get the partial refund. So, Storm still has a life and a home, and you get a puppy that works for your family. Good Luck!


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

That's a tough decision to make tonight. Perhaps ask the breeder if you can sleep on it?


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm usually the first to protect children from potential problems and getting another pup is probably the best choice. 
On the other hand.
I don't understand why the breeder needs to know tonight. You just got the pup and shouldn't be hurried into a decision. There is no hurry right now.

I don't know a dang thing about raising a deaf pup but I believe you should at least have time to speak to someone who does.

Maybe Jean would know. She is an administrator on here.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think it can be really hard to work with a deaf puppy, I know alot of aussie people deal with deaf dogs (it can be rather prevailant within the breed espec merlexmerle breedings)..I DO Know it CAN be done. 

I believe there is a deaf dog forum 'somewhere',,that could help.

I'm not sure I'd have the time/patience to deal espec with a puppy Keeping them forever onleash, in fenced areas especially.

My 13 yr old aussie lost her hearing maybe a year ago, she's deaf as a doornail..However, I teach all my dogs hand signals early on, so it's easier dealing with this "now" vs her whole life..

I like your husband's idea..ask if the breeder will allow YOU to find an appropriate home for her, if she refuses, I would kinda want to know what they would do with her.

It's very hard to keep 'emotion' out of it because it's not her fault, she's a cute little bundle of fur.

I don't envy your decision, good luck with whatever you decide


----------



## TxQuax (Jul 13, 2013)

My apologies for the typos....should have proofed before submitting. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't know how you take the emotions out of it. Maybe some can, but not me. 
I don't think I could send an otherwise healthy puppy back to a breeder, if there were any possibility it would be euthanized. 

I can't offer advice re dealing with a special needs pup while raising a special needs child, as I haven't lived through that.

Having a blind dog has permanently changed me, and how I view these dogs. I never thought I wanted a special needs dog. I ended up with one by accident after we fostered this dog -- and fell madly in love with his clever, goofy, fun personality. 
He was meant to be part of our family all along.

Having a blind dog has made me a better, more aware dog owner -- it's been an awesome, fun, wonderful journey with this dog. I haven't had a deaf dog (other than a senior who is _going _deaf), so I don't know if it's the same experience. I can say that my life is better for having this blind dog in it, even though he is missing one of his senses. We don't feel like we have a "broken" dog--we have a dog who has become a dad-gum mascot for our training group, is known by name all over town, selected as the dog of the year by a charity group, who lives life to its fullest and is one of the happiest dogs I've ever known.

I think you'll have many challenges with this pup. I know it's a very hard decision. Good luck!


----------



## RiverDan (Mar 22, 2013)

I really hate to say it. Go get a replacement puppy.
A 10-15 year lifespan vs the short time you've had her?
I am sure a non-deaf puppy will be a lot easier on the entire family.
Sorry for having such a tough decision to make.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know how one would take the emotion out of it either..For me, if I knew the puppy would go to a good home with someone willing to devote the time this is going to take, I would be at peace with that..


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would recommend returning the pup to the breeder. I don't know how this could have been missed, not with good socialization. I know when I have my pups I take one pup out of the "pack" and have it hang around with me one-on-one , a dog of the day . Had she done this she would have caught it , easily. My vet , who does house calls, does neurological tests for hearing , eye , balance , and co-ordination reflexes. 

She is offering a replacement -- that is good , but have it tested (satisfy yourself !) . I don't understand the partial refund ??? --- FULL refund . You have only had the dog a few hours - .
The onus should be on her to find a home, not you or your husband. She will have the network -- even if she were to offer the dog to someone who has previously had a deaf dog (white boxers?) (dalmations) . 
If you were to keep her the family dynamics will suffer. Stress . Inhibitions . It is not fair to have her under vigilant surveillance and muzzles . She needs to be a natural dog , your child needs to stretch and be spontaneous and be a natural baby , "kiddo". 

As far as hand signals for training , fine if you had dedication and skill and had an attentive dog receptive to learning -- not all are ! and as you see on the forum , people seem to be challenged with normal pups .

there is a difference when a dog has been with you and bonded and over time and with age things fail -- you have the foundation and routine and relationship which will help you accept problems and continue to enjoy a good rewarding relationship. When you start off and it is work-work-work- frustration - right out of the gate , that is different . Better to rehome for someone totally prepared , rather than regret or resent and rehome later , when family tempers are frayed.


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Ugh, this is so hard. Just to clarify, the breeder did not say I had to let her know tonight. I called her as soon as I got home from the vet, to be within the 72 hour health guarantee. I left her know Storm is deaf, she immediately offered a new pup. I said no, but that I thought a partial refund was in order. She asked how much, I said I would discuss with my husband and get back to her tonight. Obviously my heart was (and still is) doing the talking, fortunately my husband is a little better at looking at the long-term unemotionally. To my knowledge, there are still puppies available from her litter. I feel that if I want a different pup, I should let her know ASAP. 

The board seems to be pretty unanimous we would be better off with a hearing puppy, and since you all have no vested interest one way or another, that's important to me.

I need to do right by my kiddo, and I need to do right by my puppy. This is really hard.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## vseagle (Jul 24, 2013)

Have you considered keeping the deaf puppy and getting another one as well? I would be concerned about what the breeder might do to a less than perfect puppy. I had a deaf cat for 17 years and he did fine but I've never had a deaf dog.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

MAybe you should ask for a full refund and go with a different breeder altogether? Perhaps she would let the puppy be placed through a reputable gsd rescue? That's what I would try to do. I would not give that puppy back if you think there is even a chance she will be pts. Ask her directly what she is going to do with the puppy and also contact rescue to ask if they would consider taking the pup if the breeder signs him over. 

I personally would keep the pup but I don't have a developmentally delayed child and I always adopt animals with known issues. 

Also, just in case you are thinking about keeping her--there are other options such as tethering her to you (which is the best way to teach housebreaking) and using crates and gates to keep her separate from your son until he gets how to handle her. 

Did you join that yahoo group I posted on your original thread? I am positive they could give you much better advice than we can.


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

We cannot have two dogs at this point in our lives, unfortunately. We are military, with at least 4 years until retirement. We also have several cats, and it is very diicult to find places to rent. We just moved into this rental home, and our lease specifies the number of cats, our parrot, and one puppy. I didn't commit to puppy until I found a place that would allow a puppy. We can usually slide under the radar in post housing with the cats, but there is no way we could do it with two dogs...the pet limit in Army housing is TWO. I also have to take into account the costs of moving with a dog...that sometimes includes expensive airfare and even more expensive quarantines.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Oops, forgot this part. I am also concerned about what a breeder (any breeder) would do with a deaf dog, that is why we would prefer to find her a home ourselves.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I have taken *senior* dogs partially blind and partially deaf. But that has always been a 3-4 year commitment, at most. And my only child is grown and away at university, so I have never faced your situation. 

Sometime within the next 5-6 years, when I am down to my last rescue, I will choose to purchase over rescue. And when I purchase a pup, I will expect a perfectly healthy pup. A dog may live 8, 10, 12, 17 years. It's a huge investment, and commitment, bringing a new puppy home. I will expect to own the dog I paid for, and the breeder will be responsible for fulfilling our contract. 

If I were you, facing this decision today, I would return the pup. The breeder really is in the best position to decide the pup's outcome. It's her responsibility. Please don't feel badly. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

My nephew had gotten a white boxer as a pup that ended up being deaf. He did not take my advice and kept the pup and she did do remarkably well.

Different breed of course. I was amazed though.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

having young kids myself, I'd honestly return the puppy for sanity's sake. The time needed for a GSD puppy is a lot. The time needed for a deaf GSD puppy.... even more. I understand its hard to keep the emotion out of it. It's a puppy. They pull you in instantly. But you have to do what's best for you to make this as easy on your family as possible.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think you're going to have a hard time with a deaf pup.
i think the pup is going to know when someone is close to
him. i don't think you're going to need a muzzle. these are my gut 
feelings.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

why do you have to spend more time with training than usual?
the pup is deaf not mentally challenged.



KZoppa said:


> having young kids myself, I'd honestly return the puppy for sanity's sake.
> 
> >>>>> The time needed for a GSD puppy is a lot. The time needed for a deaf GSD puppy.... even more. <<<<<
> 
> I understand its hard to keep the emotion out of it. It's a puppy. They pull you in instantly. But you have to do what's best for you to make this as easy on your family as possible.


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if a Boxer can do it it's going to be a piece of cake for a GSD.
your nephew gets a lot of credit for the training and socializing.



Betty said:


> My nephew had gotten a white boxer as a pup that ended up being deaf. He did not take my advice and kept the pup and she did do remarkably well.
> 
> >>>>> Different breed of course.<<<<<
> 
> I was amazed though.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Contrary said:


> Oops, forgot this part. I am also concerned about what a breeder (any breeder) would do with a deaf dog, that is why we would prefer to find her a home ourselves.


A responsible breeder will try to place the puppy in a home equipped to care for a special-needs dog, and will keep the pup themselves until such a home is found.

I am sure some breeders euthanize deaf puppies, but I haven't personally heard of that going on. In some breeds, deafness is rather common. Returning the pup to the breeder is not a death sentence, and they will have a lot more resources to place the pup than you could ever dream of having! I think it's in the pup's best interest, as well as yours, to go back to the breeder.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

It doesn't sound like this breeder maybe has those resources? Why not ask her directly what will happen to the puppy? 

Also, did you see my earlier post?


----------



## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

doggiedad said:


> if a Boxer can do it it's going to be a piece of cake for a GSD.
> your nephew gets a lot of credit for the training and socializing.


You know those situations where you have to really eat your words? This was one of them. 

They really did not so that much outside the norm. Normal socialization, training with hand signals. The dog was very attune to them.

They did fence in an area in the back yard and on my advice got a vibrating collar for a recall. 

She was my nephews companion until the day she died. She was really a sweet sweet dog. You had to remind yourself that she was deaf.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

doggiedad said:


> why do you have to spend more time with training than usual?
> the pup is deaf not mentally challenged.


 
its more challenging to teach a pup to focus on you and learn if you cant get their attention easily with a noise. And if this is their first GSD pup, it makes it all the more complicated. 

OP already mentioned they have a child that is delayed so trying to train a deaf puppy can very easily add stress.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I just saw your other post about where you got this dog and choosing a breeder.


You have cats, a parrot, are in the military, and have a special needs 3 year old.
I am in awe of adding a GSD puppy to all that, but a deaf one would just put things over the top for me.

I would be asking for a refund and seeking a different breeder. Breeder should have been on top of this, as Carmen said.


----------



## TheRescueHawkeyeGSD (Jul 30, 2013)

If you have the time and the mental concentration he could be a great move. If It was my disposition I would try.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The first puppy I got from my breeder had a genetic disorder. It wasn't deafness, but it was a disease that was going to end up killing him before his time. It was going to be hard for us to keep him and we returned him for another pup out of the same litter. We had the dog for about a week and of course we bonded with him, but we knew life with him was going to be tough. Sadly...he passed about a year ago at the age of 1.5.

Take the other people's advice...return the pup and get another one. If you're really worried about what the breeder will do, just ask and see. If they're a "larger" operation, and have more than just two dogs there is a very high chance they'll be able to keep the dog and raise it right.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

doggiedad said:


> why do you have to spend more time with training than usual?
> 
> 
> Not mentally challenged, but I think how often I call my Tess when she is not looking at me. It would be so difficult if she couldn't hear me. They are both better now, but when Tess and my granddaughter were both little I was exhausted when my granddaughter went home at the end of the day. The extra work of a dog with a hearing handicap is definitely something to seriously consider.
> I'm so sorry for you,your family and your pup.


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

About my son, his delays aren't a big deal, and he hasn't been diagnosed (intentionally, I simply have not mentioned it to the doctors, and we've moved so much in his life that he's only seen the same doc a max of three times since he was 4 months old). He's 3.5 and only just started talking, and is no where near ready to potty train. I know he has delays because my 15 year old IS diagnosed as dev. delayed, and had years of therapy, starting at age two when I finally convinced his doctor he had problems. So, B is somewhere around 2.5 with some areas of his development...not a big deal, but it's important with this puppy because while I could probably teach the average 4 year old the importance of alerting Storm to his presence...B doesn't understand that yet. Other than in relation to the puppy, we do not consider B to be special needs.

I have spoken with the husband now, the wife is asleep. He asked me to email what I propose, so they can discuss it in the morning, so that's what I will do.

I have intentionally not said Storm's breeder on here because they are not well thought of on this forum. I did not find this forum until after Storm was paid for, or I might have made a different choice. What's done is done, I cannot change it now. If I ever again buy an animal from a breeder, I will do it differently. This is the first dog I have ever purchased from a breeder, and may well be my last. Usually we do rescue animals, but with having a toddler, and knowing GSD can be challenging if not raised/trained properly, we wanted to go with a breeder for this puppy.

Anyway, in case hubby does an about face, I am continuing to research about deaf dogs. I already tether her to me most of the day for potty training, and she's doing very well with that. The crate is a challenge, but I'm sure she will adjust soon. It's awkward not being able to use words to try to calm her, but I did look up the sign for sleep last night after hubby and I decided she was deaf, and have been using it when kenneling her. I do make sure she is looking at me when I do it.

I had planned to clicker train (and purchased a 20 pack of clickers on eBay just for that lol), but obviously that won't work for her. Some of what I read last night said to teach a "yes" for a marker, so tomorrow I will start working on teaching a thumbs up. Fortunately, she loves the homemade liver treats I made for training, she isn't so much enamored with Zuke's yet.

Crating her isn't an issue (other than her crying, of course), but the way this house is set up, baby gates wouldn't work, as it's a very open floor plan, and my little guy can open them anyway 

(For those who may think we are a bit nuts getting a puppy, we have 5 kids, 4 are still at home. The 3 yr old was that baby that sometimes comes along after docs say you can't have anymore kids, and is the most amazing miracle you could have ever asked for. Our 21 yr old lives about 15 miles away, and we have 19, 15, 14, and 3 still at home. All of our other animals are rescues, including the parrot lol. We own a home out in the country that we will return to when the hubby retires from the Army, and we homestead there...chickens, pigs, cows, etc. Whatever puppy we end up with never want for love and attention, and eventually the room to roam and chase a ball thrown from a Chuck-it lol.)


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> You have cats, a parrot, are in the military, and have a special needs 3 year old.


Yeah, these are the key things for me.

I know a couple of people who compete with deaf dogs in Rally, and I know another deaf dog from our dog park. Here's a (sadly not very good) picture of one lady running her deaf Border Collie. The puppy was seven or eight months old at the time and did just fine running a course alongside all the "normal" dogs, although the handler did have to use very big hand signals.










So it's certainly doable, with vibrating collars and hand signals and care and attentiveness in training. There's absolutely no reason that deaf dogs can't live full, happy lives and participate in sports and be cherished family members. Lots of them do just that.

But is it doable with a young special-needs child and a full house including other pets and frequent moves? That I don't know.


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Forgot to answer...she is NOT white. B&T saddle, pic is a bit blurry, but here she is:

_ *** Removed by ADMIN due to size ( 1840 X 3264) *** _

I spoke with people at Colorado State University's veterinary neuro dept, at two vets in Denver that do BAER testing, and the vet I took Storm to (KZoppa's vet) and all of them were VERY surprised when I said she was a GSD. First question they asked was if she was white. Apparently deafness is not very common in GSDs, particularly not non-white ones.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Contrary said:


> Forgot to answer...she is NOT white. B&T saddle, pic is a bit blurry, but here she is:
> 
> _*** Removed by ADMIN due to size ( 1840 X 3264) *** _
> 
> I spoke with people at Colorado State University's veterinary neuro dept, at two vets in Denver that do BAER testing, and the vet I took Storm to (KZoppa's vet) and all of them were VERY surprised when I said she was a GSD. First question they asked was if she was white. Apparently deafness is not very common in GSDs, particularly not non-white ones.


 
yeah I've never heard of a deaf GSD before that wasn't old and have hearing loss from old age. never heard of deafness or blindness being associated with white GSDs either so I'm mildly surprised people have been asking if she's a WGSD. I know it's associated in white Dobermans and aussies but never heard of health problems in WGSDs associated with color. 

It's possible in any breed no matter what but some its more common while others it's not. Unfortunately, you got the pup in the breed it's not common in.


----------



## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Contrary said:


> Forgot to answer...she is NOT white. B&T saddle, pic is a bit blurry, but here she is:
> 
> _ *** Removed by ADMIN due to size ( 1840 X 3264) *** _
> 
> I spoke with people at Colorado State University's veterinary neuro dept, at two vets in Denver that do BAER testing, and the vet I took Storm to (KZoppa's vet) and all of them were VERY surprised when I said she was a GSD. First question they asked was if she was white. Apparently deafness is not very common in GSDs, particularly not non-white ones.


Did they have their breeds mixed up? The gene that causes deafness is not associated with the gene that causes white coats in german shepherds like the way it is with other breeds.


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Dogs don't perceive the world the same way humans do. Humans hear first, see second, then smell. Touch is last in both species. 

Dogs smell first, see second, and hear third. Again, touch is last. 

It is actually waay easier to train a dog on hand signals than it is by voice signals. Think about it. Dogs don't talk to one another. They don't speak English. They rely on body language in the dog pack. They have no idea what "Sit" means until we teach them the association. Every voice command has to be first imprinted through conditioning, and then, or simultaneously, be associated with a verbal cue. Most of the basic commands, like sit, we teach them simultaneously. We move the treat over their head, luring them into sit position, while we say "Sit" out loud. We can drop the verbal, continue with moving the closed fist over their head, open the fist and reward when they assume the sit. And they will be successful. Alternately, we can choose to Never say a word, and can still achieve the same behavior. Same deal with down, stay, etc. All of the basic commands can be trained without ever speaking a single human word. 

When it comes to recall, you will need the vibrate stim. But, if you hand feed... Condition, focus and attention.... It might not be that different than training a hearing dog. GSDs are Velcro dogs. No matter what you do, they are most likely paying attention  meaning, looking at you! Mine seldom take their eyes off me. They have, but it's rare. 

A far as the stomping goes.. That doesn't make any sense to me. Unless you live in the forest, where the capricious winds control all nasal perception, it is Highly Unlikely that your toddler in diapers will sneak up on your dog!

Smell, sight, sound, touch. That is every dog's world perspective, in that order. 

Still, if it were me, and I had purchased the dog, I would return it ;( 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Dogs smell first, see second, and hear third. Again, touch is last. "

I don't agree with this . I think sight is the least important - leaving touch out of it .

Hearing is very acute . The dogs can hear the difference between the postal delivery and a visitor car at the end of the drive . They can hear and differentiate the footfall of "dad" returning home from someone else's. 
Personally I would rather have a blind dog than a deaf dog.
With hearing there is a greater range of warning . No sudden surprises .

We don't know the basic temperament of the pup . If she is at all reactive or spooky that can be a real problem as she will always be caught unawares . I wonder how well or how much social experience she had , and wonder also because the OP said the breeder was not one held in high regard ??? so maybe the genetics for nerves are questionable also.


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Syaoransbear said:


> Did they have their breeds mixed up? The gene that causes deafness is not associated with the gene that causes white coats in german shepherds like the way it is with other breeds.


OK, to be correct, I spoke with the vet OFFICE, not the vets themselves.

After I started Googling about deaf dogs, I found that the BAER test is the "gold standard" for deafness testing for dogs. Then I Google'd "BAER test Colorado" to see if I could find someone near me that does it. I found these lists:

http://www.btca.com/content/documents/pdf/BAER_test_sites_09282008.pdf

BAER Test Sites

Dog/Canine Health Test Clinic Schedule

CSU no longer does the testing, and their new neurologist won't be there until October. Their previous neurologist was Dr. Cuddon. Whomever I spoke to in the neuro dept asked me what breed, why I suspected the puppy was deaf, and what color she was.

I then called VCA Alameda East Veterinary Hospital because one of the lists said Dr. Cuddon was there. He is no longer there, and they no longer do the BAER testing.

Next was About Us | Neurological Center for Animals. Everyone knowledgeable was in surgery at the time, and the person who answered the phone said they don't do many BAER tests, and was not sure whether they still did them or not. Asked why I thought puppy was deaf, asked breed, said he had never heard of a deaf GSD puppy and then asked if she was white.

Found out that Dr. Cuddon now works at 
Wheat Ridge Animal Hospital & Veterinary Specialists, so called them. A tech called me back with the price ($250) of the BAER testing and we scheduled an appt for Aug 9. She said she has a deaf dog, told me the breed (I forgot what it is), and was very surprised to learn my puppy was a GSD. Asked if she was white.

I was supposed to call About Us | Neurological Center for Animals while I was at my vet, however, I forgot. 

It was pouring rain when I left, the clinic is about a 30 minute drive in good weather. Got halfway there and realized I forgot the breeder's shot records at home, so came home and got them. My GPS took me into a neighborhood to get to the vet...I got to the house closest to the clinic and was greeted by a flash flood. A city worker had me turn around. I asked the people if I could park at their house while I ran to the vet, they said no problem. Grabbed Storm out of the kennel, grabbed the records, my purse, and the towel. Walked to the edge of the water and yelled across to the city guy to see if he thought it was safe to walk across. He said it was about 18" deep and he wouldn't recommend it. He told me how to get to the main road and come in to the vet from a different way. Called hubby, asked him to call vet and explain what was going on.

The vet was great (thank you KZoppa for the recommendation!), I wish I had video of his face when I said I thought Storm was deaf. He did a few "tests" (clapping, snapping, etc.) and confirmed my suspicion. I told him I had her scheduled for BAER testing, and he told me flat-out not to waste my money, there was no question she is deaf. Obviously he did not ask me her breed or color since she was right in front of him.

I KNEW...I mentioned in two threads about it prior to going to the vet...I thought I was prepared to hear it confirmed. I was not. We discussed training, how to work on her to try to prevent startle biting, he expressed some concern about my son. Asked me what I would do if she did startle bite when she was older. Asked me if I was prepared to rehome. I said I would use a basket muzzle.

Taking into account that she is about 9 weeks old, give or take...she shows no sign of knowing you are there until you touch. My floors aren't "quiet"...meaning, they are hardwood, over a basement, they move and vibrate. I was dumb on Sunday and did not take her outside to potty immediately after I took her out of the crate. She squatted to pee, and I ran, stomping and "yelling" to startle her, so I could interrupt her and get her outside. She DID react to that, she stopped the squat, only dribbled a tiny bit, and we made it outside. This was before I was certain she was deaf, so obviously she reacted to the floor vibration.

Anyway, even if you stomp up to her while she is sleeping, she does not react til you touch her, and sometimes it takes some firm petting to rouse her. I'm attributing that to having the cold, being in a new environment, and being a young, sleepy puppy....but I could be wrong.

Absolutely right now, my toddler can "sneak" up on her. Any of us can. Will it always be that way? I have no idea.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sorry this has happened. Given the child with delays and a busy house (which sounds absolutely wonderful) I think I would take my losses and take the time to find another home for the puppy if you don't feel the breeder will do the right thing by her. The pup may thrive in a one on one situation.

I would not discount getting a nice pup from a better breeder; it sounds like yours would be a great home...and there may be the right rescue out there. I would definitely spend time to do research though. There are some solid lines that are calm and patient and a good GSD is a marvel with a small child.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Contrary said:


> OK, to be correct, I spoke with the vet OFFICE, not the vets themselves.
> 
> After I started Googling about deaf dogs, I found that the BAER test is the "gold standard" for deafness testing for dogs. Then I Google'd "BAER test Colorado" to see if I could find someone near me that does it. I found these lists:
> 
> ...


 
shoot! sorry. I forgot to tell you that part tends to flood over there by the vets office. Doesn't usually bother us because we've always had ways around or... stupidly driven through it. Course by the time we get there, it's not more than a puddle. Always go at it from Academy and Austin Bluffs. Easiest to go that way. My first apartment was there off Academy in Summer Grove so I know that little neighborhood pretty well lol. Used to work at the Woodmen Walmart.


----------



## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

How sad, I would probably agree with every one and figure out the best way to rehome the pup.
That being said I do not feel that working with deaf dogs is extremely challenging. I have run classes and private training for years and have worked with a few deaf dogs. One was a nervous, high strung English setter who we worked with from a pup and I found him easy to work with aside from his basic temperament that offered challenges (but would have been challenging even if he could hear). Although he would purposely not look at you to receive commands if he didn't want to do it lol. The other dog was a 2 year old pit bull mix that came into rescue. He had some issues, resource guarded and made god awful noises but again, easy to work with. He went to a home with a whole bunch of other dogs, cats, a parrot and toddlers and is about 10 years old now and doing great. 
I also train with a lady who trials her deaf great dane in agility. It is absolutely amazing to watch that team work! 
You just have to be more vigilant with deaf dogs, but you raise them the same as any other dog. I have also heard about using lights instead of clickers, never tried it but the theory makes sense. I have always just used a thumbs up for a positive marker and a different hand signal for a negative marker.


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

carmspack said:


> "Dogs smell first, see second, and hear third. Again, touch is last. "
> 
> I don't agree with this . I think sight is the least important - leaving touch out of it .
> 
> ...


Excellent points, Carmspack. And I am definitely a beginner in the dog training world. I would consider you to be much more of an expert when it comes to all things GSD. 

I just wanted to share what my trainer taught me. Jack and I only just completed our first 6-week course with a trainer I trust and admire for his Schutzhund accomplishments with his own dogs. The third question on my written exam was "In which order does a dog generally perceive its environment?" I gave the answer he had drilled into me: "smell sight sound touch," and he marked it as correct. I was reading the thread and hoped the info might prove encouraging to the OP. Still, if I were in her situation, I *would* choose to return the pup, so maybe that was a thoughtless share on my part. 

I think maybe my trainer's point wasn't as much how they perceive their environment overall, but more specifically how they perceive it for communication purposes, related to training. Though dogs' hearing is incredibly acute, and while they do have vocal communications, his point that they communicate in the order he described does make sense to me. Like when dogs first meet, they smell one another and watch each other's body language first and foremost -- barking, lunging, reactive dogs aside . But then actually, they're observing that body language way before they approach and sniff, aren't they, so maybe the order isn't really that definite. IDK whether it's a matter of which sense is more acute, though, but rather in which order they employ them in reading humans? I'm still figuring all this out 

At any rate, my heart goes out to the OP. With so many children and pets at home, she is clearly a remarkably generous caregiver, and I don't envy her the situation 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Well, we have heard nothing from the breeder today. I've left a message on her cell phone and multiple messages on the home phone. The husband's cell voicemail is full.

My husband has run out of patience, so if they do not call back tonight, he will be taking everything to JAG in the morning. Fortunately, I paid the majority via a credit card through PayPal, so I will talk to my bank tomorrow and start the dispute process with PayPal. I did tell them on the last message if I did not hear from them tonight, I would be seeking legal advice and contacting my credit card company to dispute.

Last night when I started this thread, the litter was still listed on their website, with 3 females still available. Today, the pictures and all information about the breeding is gone. I did save all the pictures they posted from the time I reserved my baby to my hard drive.

For anyone who reads this before they reserve their puppy, please learn from my huge mistakes. Don't ignore red flags, find a breed specific forum, study the Choosing a Breeder forum.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Wow. This has officially gone from a difficult situation to a legitimately Hot Mess  with an innocent pup caught in the middle. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Storm isn't caught in the middle, no worries there. We love her and will do whatever we can to help her succeed in our home. We will, of course, be extra vigilant, and I will begin consulting local trainers tomorrow to see if any of them have experience with deaf puppies. She's already doing fantastic on potty training, and we found her bark when we introduced her to one of our cats tonight. (They are currently confined to the basement until October, because my mom is terribly allergic to them and is coming to visit. The basement is about 1000 sq ft, so they aren't neglected or in a small space. The kids' play room is down there, so they have company most of the day.)

My biggest concern for right now is how to teach to her to pay attention to me. I'm working on teaching her the thumbs up sign, but she is way more interested in the treats than looking at me, so I'm off to join the Yahoo group, and a couple FB pages I found for deaf dogs. She may be too young to "get it" yet.

Also, someone asked about the confusion over her age...the breeder's website, and her AKC registration papers say she was born May 22. The breeder's husband, who apparently does most of the work with the dogs, says she was born May 29th, and that's what is on her shot record from them.

I showed both to the vet and he recorded her birthdate as a compromise...May 25th


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

That's super news. "Look at me" is actually pretty easy. Hand feeding is a great way to start. Get rid of the food bowl. Every bite comes from your hand. Carry the kibble from your closed hand, under the dog's nose, and then up between your eyes. When the pup makes eye contact, give a marker, which I suppose with your pup will be a thumbs up or a light flicker, and then release the food. Sometimes the pup will earn one piece of kibble, alternate that with a jackpot handful, 2-3 pieces, one bite, a jackpot... To keep the pup on his toes. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I'm no expert, but that was the exercise my trainer gave me that we worked on for three weeks before our first OB training session. It's called the attention game  and it worked for both my GSD and my Weimeraner. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Hmmm, that's a fantastic idea...we're going to go full on raw soon, because she isn't eating enough kibble. Wonder what the best way to cut up food is to not cause a problem with the bones?


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I just wanted to say that I am sorry to hear about your pup. I have recently heard this saying from multiple people in regards to my current pup (usually when I am calling her a devil or Satan) - We get the pup we need, not the one we may want. I just thought that it was appropriate here. 

Good luck with her! I am sure you both will do great!


----------



## GoldenGloves (Jul 7, 2013)

When I was in high school a friend of mine had adopted a blind / deaf (but beautiful) Aussie. Her name was Helen Keller, they worked around with startling by training her with a vibrating collar, not a shock collar but a vibrating one with a remote. If they were walking up to her they would press they button, she would stand and wag her tail. Amazing dog, I think you have her for a reason, if you chose to keep her it may be hard but rewarding. The remote was the easiest way to get around the "startling" they said, vet recommended a muzzle too but they knew she was special and could learn if they tried. I wish you the best of luck. I don't have a lot of time this very second as I am on my way to the airport but please pm me, I remember this dog very well and how they trained her, I can tell you all about it if you want to hear good luck to you and yours from the bottom of my heart. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Well... Idk. I was a raw feeder, and swear by it!, but have given it up meantime to achieve my training goals. I was perfectly happy to pass out full portions of raw meat. Much less so when it came to hand feeding, lol! Kinda hate the kibble, because now I have to clean my dogs ears and teeth, *and* bathe them, even though we went with a grain free kibble (Wellness CORE), but it's worth it for the time being. I really need the OB! We will go back to raw once we achieve our training goals. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I went raw in the first place because I couldn't keep weight on my rescue Jack. He was totally not motivated to eat, before the switch to raw... Long back story. So when the trainer said kibble, I figured Jack would starve to death before we got anywhere. I was pleasantly surprised that all three dogs switched readily from the raw to the Wellness kibble. It's *not* the best kibble available, but I live in the middle of nowhere and they sell it at the Tractor Supply half an hour away, so I tried it first and they love it. Maybe it will work for you too. They are so individual, I can't say. Just my experience. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Wondering if I could cut boneless meat/chicken into bite sized pieces for training, and give chicken necks as a chew "treat" to get the bone in there. Think that would work?


----------



## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

It's worth a shot. You'll know whether it's working when you see her stools. The only problem I see is that when you're on raw, organ meat is very important, and very yucky and juicy. Not something I would want to hand feed, lol!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

how the heck does the breeder not know that a pup is deaf by 8 weeks? who is the breeder so people will know to stay away from them? i dont know how experienced you are but raising a gsd pup is a lot of work. she might seem cute now but when shes 5-6 months and hyper it might not be so cute. if you do decided to keep the pup im predicting you will have lots of very frustrating moments as well as some very rewarding ones. 

also not to sound stupid but are you positive the pup is deaf? when i got my pup at 8 weeks i also thought he was deaf. i could yell his name as loud as possible from behind and he wouldnt even flinch. i clapped and he didnt care. i banged a pan and he didnt care. turns out he just had a very high tolerance for loud sounds. he grew up to not be afraid of thunder, fireworks, motorcycles, etc but he could hear perfectly fine. a pups senses are still developing at this age.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Contrary, contact Jim Beinlich at CoolK9's dog training. He's a good trainer and he knows the breed well since he has GSDs himself. Explain to him about the situation and your need for help training her. I believe he can help you or he very possibly can refer you to someone who can in the area. 

https://www.facebook.com/coolk9s

Cool K9's Colorado Springs Area Dog Training Home

Tell him Micky Rat's niece sent you.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I couldn't take the emotion out of it and I would keep her. I think they all go through a stage when they "don't hear you". I swear mine don't hear me at all when I'm trying to get his attention. Hand signals work and I've heard of the vibrating collar working too. It can be done, it just depends on how much time and patience you have. I don't know of to many people that would take on a deaf dog, much less a GSD that will probably have a good energy level...I just think about the things that you could accomplish and how good the feeling would be. Good Luck with whatever you decide.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Contrary said:


> Wondering if I could cut boneless meat/chicken into bite sized pieces for training, and give chicken necks as a chew "treat" to get the bone in there. Think that would work?


There are a lot of great options for dehydrated raw that you can use for training treats. 

And glad you are keeping her. I think you all will do great together! Also you can hold treats in your mouth (not anything raw or yucky, of course) and spit them at her to get her looking directly at you. That's what some people do to get those flashy fronts and heels with eye contact.


----------



## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I feed raw - we use hot dogs (cooked), cheese, and other small (various kinds) of dog treats for training. We have also used cooked meat as well. I like using a "doggie trail mix" of treats so she never knows what is coming up.


----------



## FoxyMom (Feb 9, 2013)

I've been following this story, and I am so excited you are keeping her! You've got a great start with all of the info you've gotten from here. I can't wait to see how she does. Please keep us updated!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> how the heck does the breeder not know that a pup is deaf by 8 weeks? who is the breeder so people will know to stay away from them? i dont know how experienced you are but raising a gsd pup is a lot of work. she might seem cute now but when shes 5-6 months and hyper it might not be so cute. if you do decided to keep the pup im predicting you will have lots of very frustrating moments as well as some very rewarding ones.
> 
> also not to sound stupid but are you positive the pup is deaf? when i got my pup at 8 weeks i also thought he was deaf. i could yell his name as loud as possible from behind and he wouldnt even flinch. i clapped and he didnt care. i banged a pan and he didnt care. turns out he just had a very high tolerance for loud sounds. he grew up to not be afraid of thunder, fireworks, motorcycles, etc but he could hear perfectly fine. a pups senses are still developing at this age.


You're kinda contradicting yourself. You say you thought your 8 week old was deaf, but you question how the breeder couldn't have known. Here is the thread where I asked for thoughts about whether she might be deaf: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/310562-selective-hearing-deaf.html



KZoppa said:


> Contrary, contact Jim Beinlich at CoolK9's dog training. He's a good trainer and he knows the breed well since he has GSDs himself. Explain to him about the situation and your need for help training her. I believe he can help you or he very possibly can refer you to someone who can in the area.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/coolk9s
> 
> ...


He's the first one I plan to call! I joined his FB page when you told me about him, but I think I remember she needed to complete puppy shots before we could work with him. I'm thinking I may need some professional advice prior to that, so I will definitely call him tomorrow.

Thanks for all the good thoughts everyone, I've opened a dispute with PayPal, we will see where it goes from there.

I'm not going to say her breeder at this time. I don't know if I ever will. I will pursue this through every avenue available, including filing complaints with her state, the BBB, etc. I can say had I done just a bit more Google'ing, or even searched the breeder's kennel name on this forum...I would have been forewarned.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm happy for this pup, and I admire and respect your courage and determination. She's a lucky pup. 

Even though she's not the kind of dog you wanted, I have a feeling that over time, she'll reveal herself to be exactly the dog you need. I can't say how or why that will be so, but I just have a hunch she'll have a special purpose for your family. 

I wish you and your family all the best!


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Ahhhhhhh, this is turning into a saga :help:

Breeder just emailed, they were at the vet with one of the puppies from Storm's litter last night. She wants to keep the rest of the litter for two weeks to finish their antibiotics, and then exchange Storm for one of her sisters. She said she will email me when she gets home from work. I emailed back and told her that she has to get back with me TODAY so we can come to a resolution. She said she will find Storm a home with one of her friends (I believe she will, but we will explore that further when she gets back with me.)

Printed the emails and left them on hubby's laptop so he will see them when he wakes up in a few hours (I'm a night owl, he is not)

So, we're back to being up in the air. Having had a day or so to think on having a deaf puppy/dog, I KNOW we are probably not the best home for this baby...my heart greatly disagrees, of course, I have fallen heads over heels in love with Storm. I did join the deaf dogs Yahoo group, my message to them is awaiting moderation, hopefully they will approve it early in the day so I can get some feedback from folks who have deaf dogs. If I could guarantee she will never be a startle biter, there would be no question whatsoever...

Ugh.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

not to be nosey and you don't have to answer, but why would the breeder's puppies be on antibiotics? 

If you really trust her to find storm a home with one of her friends, well that's up to you and your husband to decide. 

I'm not sure I'd be comortable taking another puppy from her, if you do decide to return storm, I would ask for a full refund. 

Check out the puppy lemon laws in your area,,since you had her checked out within the purchase period, you 'may' be entitled to your refund AND vet expenses related to the hearing thing.

BOOMER> naming the breeder here would be against forum rules.

Good luck with your decision, tough one for sure, honestly, I'm not sure I would have the patience or time to work a deaf puppy


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would get a full refund , not a pup .

Why are they on anti biotics ??? Could the deafness have been caused by some illness , reaction to vaccination, nerve damage from prolonged body temperature rise.

without naming the breeder , do you see any inbreeding on the pedigree - can you hint at a pedigree .


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

who needs to eat their words and for what?



doggiedad said:


> if a Boxer can do it it's going to be a piece of cake for a GSD.
> your nephew gets a lot of credit for the training and socializing.





Betty said:


> >>>>> You know those situations where you have to really eat your words? This was one of them. <<<<<
> 
> They really did not so that much outside the norm. Normal socialization, training with hand signals. The dog was very attune to them.
> 
> ...


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

If the OP names the breeder, is that considered "breeder bashing"? She hasn't bashed the breeder at all, merely told her story. The truth is not actionable.


----------



## GoldenGloves (Jul 7, 2013)

I really truly hope you decide to keep her, she could really be a secret blessing. I know it's hard, I truly do as I have a lot of experience with disabled pets and children. Again, please consider contacting me so we can talk further about your specific situation. 
"When life gives you lemons... Paint them gold"


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

None of the states involved seem to have puppy lemon laws. I don't believe the breeder has the money to give me a refund, or that is probably the route I would take. Without a refund, it will be a few months before I can afford to get a puppy from a different breeder. We are not poor by any stretch, and I have a credit card with a large line set aside just for any puppy emergencies, but I don't have $1500-2000 just lying around now.

Carmspack, I know little about pedigree, but I am finding some of it on The Pedigree Database - Home of the pedigree enthusiast. I will PM you.


----------



## Contrary (Jun 12, 2013)

Oh, and the abx are for an upper respiratory infection. I was unaware any of the litter was sick until I picked up Storm. I was told at that time that 2 puppies were starting to get sick, they had been isolated, and was given prophylactic penicillin to give Storm. Took everything with me to the vet, he said the pen probably had helped hold it at bay, Storm does not have pneumonia, but wanted to bump up the abx to something more full spectrum, and she's on Clavamox now.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that is what I was wondering - if the sickness caused hearing loss or impairment , like when you have conjested sinus or swollen glands , hearing ability decreases.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Is it possible she will regain her hearing then? We had an employee with a really bad inner and outer ear infection, vertigo as well. He had a hard time hearing but was fine after meds.


----------

