# Rehome, euthanize or other options?



## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

My heart is breaking.

Frieda went after another dog Monday. I was getting her out of the car, stepped wrong and fell. She seized the opportunity and went after our neighbor's little dog. She terrified everyone present, and although Lola (the little dog) screamed bloody murder, no one could find any blood or tooth marks on her.

The neighbors want Frieda gone, and they don't care how we accomplish it. They are afraid she will attack and kill one of their dogs, or worse, one of the children. She had a history a year ago shortly after we got her of escaping from the house and going after another dog, but again, no teeth marks or blood, just a big display of growling, etc. We changed the gates to our fence, put an automatic door closer on the front door so the kids can't accidentally leave it open, and we leash her to the banister if we answer the door - but she still found a way to attack another dog. She has always been dog reactive, and she will bark at children if they move too fast, but recently my husband has seen her growl and try to lunge at children at the park. I don't take her anywhere that there are children around (other than my own), so I can't tell from DH's description whether it's just a social display or if she's serious about doing something, and I'm sure not going to borrow a neighbor's kid to find out. She is very tolerant and affectionate with my own children and has never given me any reason to be concerned. They are never unsupervised when they are around her.

We have gone through multiple trainers, medications, LAT, CAT, BAT - you name it, and we've tried it. She had recently had tremendous improvement in her leash manners around other dogs, but she seems to have gotten acutely worse again. The bottom line is that she is the fear aggressive product of BYB genetics and poor socialization, and that cannot be changed, only managed. We now have a muzzle and use it every time she leaves the house. I now also have a waist leash, and it is attached to a harness, plus I use a regular leash with her head collar, so if she lunges and I lose my grip, I've got a backup restraint in place.

I think keeping Frieda with the safeguards of the muzzle and waist tether is a viable option. My husband does not. Most of the neighbors do not think so, either. I am reluctant to rehome a dog who has fear aggression, especially around children. Either she is a dangerous dog, in which case she needs to be euthanized before she does harm, or she is not, and she should be able to stay with us. I just want Frieda to feel safe and happy, but I don't know if that's possible. 

Our trainer is currently in Ireland attending a seminar on aggressive dogs. We will see what she has to say when she returns.

Any opinions, or suggestions for other options?

:help:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sounds to me like the biggest issues are control and management. Honestly I'm not all that worried about a GSD that goes after other dogs. Lots of GSDs just aren't tolerant of other dogs. If management (keeping her contained and keeping here away from kids and other dogs) is going to be a problem, then I would rehome her. Just based on your post at this point, euthanization seems pretty harsh especially if she doesn't actually have a bite history. My question is, if she cannot be walked without a muzzle, harness, and multiple leashes, why is she leaving the house in the first place? Why not working on training and control at home where she feels more secure? Again, hard to say from just one post but she may be a dog that just needs strong leadership and boundaries.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Monday we were at the vet's. I can't get the vet to make house calls.

99.9% of the time, she is fine on walks. She's great in the car. She enjoys being outside, as much as I think she enjoys anything. Her problem is the 0.1% of the time when my focus isn't on her. Frieda is an opportunist, and she will take full advantage of any drop in my (or anyone else's) concentration.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If she's just on a normal leash and collar does she react? I just ask because sometimes all this other "stuff" just makes it worse. If you're really nervous you might be inadvertently cueing her reactive behavior. Usually a dog like this needs a strong leader, not strong as in heavy handed but someone that shows confidence and control. Sometimes the bigger deal we make of situations, the bigger deal it becomes to the dog.

Also how old is Frieda?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I can't in any way recommend rehoming. Can the other home guarantee 110% that this dog will never encounter another dog or child and that it will be contained for the rest of its life? You really need to work on containment, and training when getting in and out of things where you don't have complete control of her.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Frieda is 18 months old. She has been like this since she was rescued. It gets better and gets worse, but it's always been there. Yes, she will react even on a normal leash and collar. She reacts even worse on a pinch/prong, and using a martingale collar didn't really make any difference.

I don't think I'm nervous. We have worked really hard at giving her clear boundaries, and she respects them. Monday I didn't even see that the other dog was out - I would have waited until they walked by the house before unloading her from the car if I had seen her. Usually her reaction to dogs is bark bark bark, lunge, dance around, growl - but this was very silent. No warning.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

martemchik said:


> I can't in any way recommend rehoming. Can the other home guarantee 110% that this dog will never encounter another dog or child and that it will be contained for the rest of its life? You really need to work on containment, and training when getting in and out of things where you don't have complete control of her.


How to work on containment?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It is going to be impossible to rehome a dog with this history. I think euthanizing is overboard since she has not hurt the other dog. If she always has a muzzle on when she leaves the house, this can be managed. You can put her up in a crate in a locked room when kids visit. She is quite young and she has the teenage issues coupled with other stuff.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

You can also have a leash attached to a headrest or the door armrest that she is clipped to until you are out of the car - in this way she won't be able to bolt.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

I should add, we have a six foot fence. It is chain link, but at the trainer's suggestion we put the bamboo roll stuff around it so she can't see through it. The windows in the front of the house have the frosted peel and stick paper so she can't see through them and practice barking at every dog that walks by the house. If we had a garage, I would load/unload her in there, but we don't. 

Her thyroid levels are fine, and these don't look like seizure events.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I went back through old posts - you found her on the highway? You've had her a year? But she was on her own for who knows how long...

It is very weird...trying to get a handle on this behavior and understanding it, just from reading this and old threads. 

I think you are containing, moreso than most people on this board have ever described. 

Is she any different when someone else handles her? Like the trainer? I will hand my dogs off on a specific behavior to see if the respond differently with someone else, and lots of times they do. Sometimes it is worse! But sometimes better. 

Do you do NILIF with her? I have an opportunist and she's been on NILIF since I started fostering her when she was 4months. I just realized I've been slipping a bit and she's been stepping up her behaviors. 

And I know I will get eye rolls but whatever, I've done it before and it worked, but a good animal communicator can sometimes be of assistance. When you are backed into a corner, all options might be on the table. Example - this was not a terrible thing, but potentially dangerous - my one dog was "fence fighting" with the neighbor - neighbor had dementia and was throwing things over the fence at my dog when my dog would bark at him. I told the communicator and he said, Bruno says the guy is starting it. No way, I was out there with my dogs every time, my dog would start barking first. He said go sit by the fence quietly and see. I did, and yes, the man would knock on the fence lightly to get the dog barking and then would throw rocks (and a rototiller - that's when *I* barked, demented or not) at my dog. So, I was able to control the behavior from there on out. Weird.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I would find a good trainer who trains with the ecollar. The ecollar can work wonders for control.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

RebelGSD, that is a good idea about the leash in the vehicle. She already is crated and the door to the bedroom is shut and locked if we have kids over.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

RebelGSD, we've already tried the ecollar. I was so hopeful it would work - but it was a miserable failure.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

How did you use the ecollar?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It sounds awesome the stuff you are already doing. Sometimes it takes more time, she is a young dog and she is going through different development stages.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

I feel for you. One of our Shutzhund members just had to rehome her SCh3 dog due to dog aggression.

Her dog took an opportunity to go after the neighbors small dog and bit and shook it. The dog had to have drainage tubes put in and stitches.

This dog was not a product of byb breeding, but imported from Germany and came into the states already titled as a Sch3. Some dogs are just wired as dog aggressive.

The long and short of it is , she had to rehome her with some folks that have a kennel because the homeowners association was coming after her. Even our Shutuzhund president would not take this dog because she has a kennel with 12 other imports and did not want a DA dog on her property long term.

I hope your trainer can help you. My Shutzhund member associate is heartbroken about having to follow home owners association rules about giving her dog up.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Neo93 said:


> How to work on containment?


I was going to say a large run in the back yard, and only allowed in the back yard. But really, I don't know. If the neighbors are already involved its really a bad situation for everyone. I don't want to recommend euthanization because this dog doesn't have a bite history, but there are some demons there that you are having trouble containing. Its really sad to hear about a dog like this, but I just wanted to put in my two cents about even thinking about rehoming. Think of the home you'd have to find, and the liability you're giving to the new owners.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Crates and gates. Gate the front door. Crate in the house and in the car.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

RebelGSD said:


> I would find a good trainer who trains with the ecollar. The ecollar can work wonders for control.


Agreed, e collars should be implemented with someone who know how to use them first.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

It seems IMHO that your environment isn't the right one for this dog. It is possible that you can find a rehoming situation that suits her and she is the type that the new owners can handle and give her training and a good life.
JMHO. For example, a couple or person without children and little contact with other dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> JMHO. For example, a couple or person without children and little contact with other dogs.


And this can be guaranteed for the life of this dog?


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Jean, I cannot get a handle on her behavior either. She is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma (to quote Churchill), for sure. Her behavior is not purely fear based. She's this weird combo of smart, cocky, wanna be alpha dog and fearful. My son is on the autism spectrum, and we joke that Frieda is as well. Sometimes she's great - ignores other distractions, focused on me, responsive to commands, just the picture of GSD perfection - and sometimes, well, she's not. Same location, same weather, same treats, same time of day - from my pov nothing has changed. I can't figure out the variables.

Yes, we found her on the highway at around 7 months of age, but I don't know whether she'd been on her own for most of that or not. She was thin but not malnourished. We've had her for a little more than a year. 

She is more reactive when my husband handles her - but he isn't the one who usually does. She is somewhat less reactive when the trainer handles her, but I have still seen her look for an opportunity to react when the trainer is not exclusively focused on her.

We practice NILIF as well. I'll have to pay a little more attention and see if we've been slipping. 

I may try an animal communicator. At this point if you told me to hang upside down from the celing while holding Frieda, I would.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Neo93 said:


> My heart is breaking.
> 
> Frieda went after another dog Monday. I was getting her out of the car, stepped wrong and fell. She seized the opportunity and went after our neighbor's little dog. She terrified everyone present, and although Lola (the little dog) screamed bloody murder, *no one could find any blood or tooth marks on her.*
> 
> :help:


Im sorry your having such a hard time with your dog. I am no expert but if the dog was that aggressive she would have left a mark or worse. Obviously you can never ever let her get that opportunity again. I hope your able to work thru this. Good luck.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> And this can be guaranteed for the life of this dog?


I rehomed a dog to a household with no other dogs and kids (for different reasons than Frieda) and it's worked quite well. A few times a year I get an e-mail and a picture.

IMO there are really no "guarantees" at all when it comes to owning animals.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Check out Lou Castle's web page and you can also contact him by PM. With his methods they train high drive police dogs not to chase cats when they are on duty. You have to keep in mind that training does have up and downs. Sometimes you think it will never happen, and then suddenly something clicks in the dog and things fall into place. Suddenly all the training is there and you have a great dog. hang in there, you are doing the right things. You can try to a rehome, but it is unlikely that you will find a good home for her. Most people want a no-work pet.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

We worked with a local ecollar trainer who came highly recommended. The sheriff's office uses them for ecollar work with their dogs, so I think he knew what he was doing. 

PaddyD, if I could sell my house and move to the country with a large fenced acreage in the middle of nowhere, I would, because I think that's what would be the perfect home for her. Unfortunately, with real estate values the way they are, it's not going to happen. 

It would be really hard to find that perfect situation for her, though, and I am afraid of passing on that liability.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I really think the HOW you used the ecollare question is very relevant! Lou Castle is a very special low stim technique and others blast the dog while in drive. Once the dog is in drive they become immune to pain or it even ramps them up more. Low stim - is always done at a place where the dog is clear headed.


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## myshepharley (Feb 11, 2011)

Neo93 I feel your pain and confusion. Harley is exactly the same way. He is not fond of little kids running around and is sometimes aggressive to other dogs. Just the other day I watched my friend's dog for alittle. It is a small breed. I had the kids take him upstairs so I could put Harley outside. In the blink of an eye, he bolted to the stairs and before I could grab him, I slipped. He ran straight to the dog, grabbed him and kept shaking him. Got him off and downstairs locked in room. The other dog had fur ripped off and bruises. No blood, thank god. It was awful and I feel horrible because I could of taken more precautions. He is doing fine but did come out of it with a broken rib. Harley seems to be showing this kind of behavior at home only. I now have to watch him constantly or make sure he is locked in my room. I would not of thought he would do this but now I know that every precaution needs to be taken. I have been given the suggestion to rehome him. Want to try to keep him in his home before resorting to that.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> I really think the HOW you used the ecollare question is very relevant! Lou Castle is a very special low stim technique and others blast the dog while in drive. Once the dog is in drive they become immune to pain or it even ramps them up more. Low stim - is always done at a place where the dog is clear headed.


I hate to sound ignorant, but I have no idea how he used the ecollar, whether it was low or high stim. It was early in my Frieda adventure, and I had not learned as much about it as I probably should have before letting the trainer try it. It was also when Frieda was pretty much away shut down, away mentally on some German Shepherd planet. I will call this afternoon and see if I can get details.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I rehomed a dog to a household with no other dogs and kids (for different reasons than Frieda) and it's worked quite well. A few times a year I get an e-mail and a picture.
> 
> IMO there are really no "guarantees" at all when it comes to owning animals.


It's not about the household, its about daily life. Can you find a home where there won't be little children ever around this dog, or other animals? And its not placing the dog there, its the liability that something might happen. To me, anytime a question or discussion like this arises you really have to think about, what if this happens with the new owners? And what if its worse?

In this situation, there should be a guarantee, they're thinking about rehoming a dangerous dog, if you can't guarantee that this would never happen again, you shouldn't put that burden on someone else.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I just think it's premature to label an adolescent dog with no actual bite history with kids as a "dangerous dog". So far I think the OP has it right with regard to kids. The dog has never touched her kids, and she puts the dog away when other kids are around. I do the exact same with all my dogs even though I have no reason to believe they'd attack a child and two of my three are quite fond of kids. This is just common sense and does not make a dog any more dangerous than any other. As for attacking the other dogs, well that just needs to be managed. Don't let the dog out of the car without holding the leash or collar.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't know the exact answers for your situation. Each owner/dog dyad is its own deal.

I have many dogs here. There are 6 large ones made up of the GSDs and the Catahoula. I only have one that I would feel any confidence about with strange dogs and small dogs. I did not know they were supposed to tolerate them, I guess! Some of my dogs do not enjoy strangers in the house either. Our neighborhood is old and in the middle of town. Houses are close together and next door are children behaving irresponsibly with their Yorkie pup.

I would recommend that you get with a good training place. Find some good dog folks to train with. When I have a dog with control issues, they are in training bootcamp. Some work every day. Planning of household life so control is well learned and the dog can have a consistently clear picture of how we interact. That dog would go to organized training with our training group at least twice a week. Preferably the group eventually gets you the ooportunity to be around all sorts and sizes of dogs. Not with goal of ever playing with them, but to neutralize any interest in them. 

This does not take the rest of the dog's life, but a period of commitment is needed and then life long consistency. 

I am thinking that perhaps shorter term attempts have been made to fix things. Even e collar training can take some considered time and effort.

There are no perfect dogs. Even dogs from better situations can have their deals...being dogs and all.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Samba, we do train twice a week with our trainer and her assortment of bombproof dogs, and we have been training at least twice a week plus a nosework class since last August. I really thought she had made some great progress until this week. 

Outside of class it is difficult to find dogs to work with, as (obviously) the neighbors want nothing to do with the big bad GSD- but we work on impulse control with the flirt pole in the back yard, brush up on basic commands before each frisbee toss, and it's always easy to find squirrels to help me work on impulse control . The trainer does think that we'll probably be in some sort of training for the life of the dog, and I tend to agree, as there is always a predictable backslide in behavior when one or the other of us goes on vacation for a few weeks. I refer to Frieda as a "lifer" at the training facility. I want to get her a skull bandanna and patch for her Thundershirt (a little black humor to get me through the hard parts of training ).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Neo93 said:


> Samba, we do train twice a week with our trainer and her assortment of bombproof dogs, and we have been training at least twice a week plus a nosework class since last August. I really thought she had made some great progress until this week.
> 
> Outside of class it is difficult to find dogs to work with, as (obviously) the neighbors want nothing to do with the big bad GSD- but we work on impulse control with the flirt pole in the back yard, brush up on basic commands before each frisbee toss, and it's always easy to find squirrels to help me work on impulse control . The trainer does think that we'll probably be in some sort of training for the life of the dog, and I tend to agree, as there is always a predictable backslide in behavior when one or the other of us goes on vacation for a few weeks. I refer to Frieda as a "lifer" at the training facility. I want to get her a skull bandanna and patch for her Thundershirt (a little black humor to get me through the hard parts of training ).


This makes it sound like you are making strides in managing her. I don't think there is ever an issue with being a lifer at a training facility, I will train my dog at our facility as long as he is willing. I was also not trying to label her as a "dangerous dog" in the sense of what the AC or police may think of her, just that she is more dangerous than a well balanced GSD. She acts out on her impulses and is not safe around children or fast moving objects, which is being managed pretty well. But she is still a danger to the neighborhood, and to other people's pets. Let's put it this way, if a dog ran up to my dog and barked in his face once, I'll let it go, twice, we'll have a talking, more than that, and you will have other issues than just managing your dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Samba said:


> I only have one that I would feel any confidence about with strange dogs and small dogs. I did not know they were supposed to tolerate them, I guess!


LOL I feel the same way. In fact I think in general my dogs are more tolerant of strange dogs and small dogs than I am.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Maybe I'm not being clear - we have made strides in managing her, but she still has persistent issues with dogs, especially small dogs, fast moving objects, and children (those might fall under fast moving objects). She has control/impulse issues in real life situations - she does not always generalize well between wait/leave it/ aus for her flirt pole or frisbee and leave it for a dog or other fast moving object.

I wonder, though, if our point of maximum returns from training has been reached. We will obviously continue training, but I don't know that we will ever consistently be able to overcome the dog issue. 

We go out with the muzzle not because I think she has to have it to prevent her biting, but as a safeguard for the "what if" case. My hope is that it also will put the neighbors more at ease if they see her mouth (and more importantly, teeth) are contained. We did not use it prior to Monday's event. I apologize if I gave the impression that she was so uncontrollable that we did not need to be out of the house.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Say a dog or fast moving object comes by, how does that usually play out? What does she do and what is your reaction?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Neo....how much of the training focuses on the things that set Frieda off? I ask because maybe a better approach is just more training and control in general. She's probably a dog that will always be aroused by fast moving objects and won't ever tolerate strange dogs. That's fine, many many GSDs are like that and are not dangerous. Instead of focusing on those issues you can't change, I would continue working on her obedience and responsiveness to you (and your bond!) in general. I've found with my dogs that when they go through phases of being really reactive and lacking impulse control, just focusing on their obedience and motivation to work with me as a partner in general is far more valuable than focusing on really specific issues that we may or may not ever be able to overcome. My oldest GSD isn't real tolerant of other people or dogs but he's not a problem because he is so obedient and biddable. As a young dog he would most definitely have darted out of the car after a smaller dog but now he couldn't care less. Even though he has no desire to be friends with most other dogs, he's not dangerous or out of control because he has learned to trust me and not have to worry about every little movement or what every other dog is doing. I think a lot of it comes with maturity as well. Your dog is very young and maybe behind on maturity because of her rocky start. I think if training was more fun rather than just dealing with problems, you will start to see a trickle down effect with how the dog behaves in these problem situations.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

On leash on a walk? Or off leash in the yard? 

On a walk, if I see it first, we will stop, wait for her to notice, wait for a calming signal (we're doing BAT), and then retreat and praise/treat. If I don't think there's any way on earth she's going to offer a calming signal to that particular dog, I will click her for looking and retreat.

If she sees it first, depending on the kind of day she's having, she will either (a) ignore it, for which she gets heavily praised, (b) stop to look at it, and then we proceed as above or (c) bark, growl, lunge, for which she gets a strong verbal correction, and we retreat once she is calm.

If she were to see the dog while she is in the fenced yard and the other dog is not, she would stiffen, bark, and then run after the dog. She will stop at the fence, try to climb up the fence while jumping on her hind legs and barking hysterically. Sometimes I can call her off that behavior, and sometimes I can't. That is one reason that we put up the bamboo around our fence, so she can't see other dogs as they pass.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Liesje, that is one reason we started nosework - I wanted at least part of her training to be something that she enjoyed. Most of the training I do on my own (not at the training facility) is working on her focus on me and obedience in general. About half of the training at the facility revolves around working with other dogs or similarly difficult things. Maybe we need to back off that and work more on focus?


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

OP can you describe the attack on the little dog? Did she mouth it or was it a growling show? I've owned a DA dog in the past and when he went after something, there was no doubt that he was intent on killing it. Although every once in a while he would manage to get to another dog, it can be controlled and managed. Over time we came to have an understanding with the neighbors that he would not bother their dogs as long as they stayed out of our yard, nor were we going to force him to spend his life on the leash merely because they couldn't control their dogs. It got tense at times, but we managed to maintain the peace.

I've also watched Freyja get in a fight with a smaller dog (other dog started it), there was saliva, horrible noises, but no puncture marks on the other dog. If she wanted to do damage she easily could, but was merely defending herself/asserting dominance. It was terrifying to watch, but she didn't want to cause harm. It is starting to sound like your dog does the same, or has no idea how to handle smaller dogs. If she wanted to hurt the small dog, the second she came in contact with the dog it would be over and no matter how quick you were, there would be nothing you could do. Have you socialized her at the trainers with small dogs? If so, how does she react with the dogs on neutral grounds? It is also possible that the other dogs do something to instigate the situation. When we had Teddy, the neighbor's purse dog thought it could take him on and came up aggressively, I am just thankful that I had him on a leash that day. That dumb dog never learned its lesson though, and to the day that it died (car) would always try to instigate fights, some small dogs have Napoleon complexes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Again since I can't see I won't say for sure but.... it seems pretty clear she's not real safe or real tolerant around other dogs, so I personally would not force that issue. When dogs get reactive they are showing their discomfort so why continue to press her into those situations? I think LAT is really valuable *if* it works. I tend to use that sort of training on the fly, like if one of my dogs normally reacts but one time does not, THEN I throw a huge party. But I don't really setup training to work specifically on LAT games and that sort of thing. It just happens when it happens. When my dog was going through a terribly reactive period I had NO luck focusing my training specifically on that issue and continually putting him near other dogs. We either did not make any progress or he only had more of a reason to react and not trust me. It's not so much instilling focus as in eye contact, but focus as in the dog is learning to have fun with me and trust me and thus offers more focus on his own. The obedience and control come more naturally when you have the dog's respect and trust. You want the training to be a partnership and not constantly setting up conflicts where your will and your dog's will are at odds. As she develops this bond and matures, she may surprise you. I thought my GSD and I were best buds when he was a few months old but looking back that is nothing compared to the intuitive bond we have after several years of training.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Neo, just saw this. 

As we've talked about before, both our dogs have similar issues with the bad starts in life and what it has done to them. I haven't gone the route of the communicator yet, however it is on the table. The behaviorist we train with does have a communicator she uses, if you'd like I can get you in touch with her or get the contact info from her. It may be that you want a second set of eyes as well on Frieda to give another evaluation, offer if possible another option for management and training or just another opinion overall.

On Frieda's behalf; the little dog next door may have been giving some signals that set her off - small dog syndrome - they are big, bad and own everything (don't blast me people it happens). I have to deal with that here with Woolf and a chiwawa (spelling sux  ) It's management, rather micromanagement.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

I feel your pain.  Got a friend to take me in a truck and got Rey's outdoor play kennel yesterday, the indoor kennel for the basement is on its way from Home Depot (I don't want to crate her in the day when friends are over since she sleeps in the crate at night and I want to give her stretch room). She'll be in the house with me as usual most of the time, but this will give me peace of mind when I need a place to contain her. 

Entering and leaving my car with Rey is a training experience EVERY TIME and I never let my guard down in that circumstance. She has to sit in the back seat and I crack the back windows and give her treats for doing so when I enter or exit, and throw a treat in the back when I'm getting out of the car to divert her. When I don't have time to do this, she simply can't go with me. I also leave her leash on while in the car. She was about the same age as your dog when I got her, and will turn 2 this month. It's been a real experience in WILD. 

We do "treats for tricks" EVERY SINGLE DAY, and I use cut-up boiled gizzards now to avoid the fat and junk in other treats since I'm giving her so many with training. She's so hyper that when I got treats out, she'd go through a series of sitting, laying, putting out her right paw, then her left paw trying to figure out in advance what to do to get the treat. Not good, and was a good opportunity work on FOCUS. I stopped it by starting with "give me your . . . " and waiting so she had to focus on the command to get the treat. It's working and directing her attention on me alone. Now she stops and cocks her head, knowing she's not getting anything until she stops and listens. This spastic, wired, fear aggressive dog is actually getting it with "stay" and now whines at "leave it," when barking at rabbits, birds, whatever, and then quiets. I surprised her the other night when she barked at coyotes howling with "good girl," teaching her to differentiate what it's okay to give warning about. Consistency is paying off, but with these wired dogs it's very slow going. She crumbles when I correct her or she displeases me and I use that against her, to immediately turn it around in rewarding every itty bitty appropriate thing she does with tons of reinforcement. I was told to never correct a fear aggressive dog, but I have because there are times I've HAD to. I just made sure the corrections were very directly related to a behavior at the moment they were happening, were quick, fair, not overly harsh, then over with, then made a huge deal over the desired changed behavior. When Rey plays too rough with my elderly dog, Buddy, all I have to say is "Do I have to get the fly-swatter?" and she stops (and I only swatted her on the butt with it once, very lightly, to which she acted like she was going to just die or something). I made a huge deal out of it when she stopped with praise and neck rubs. (I know a few people will probably jump me for that, but it worked and made living with this dog possible.) It's a matter of figuring out what your dog responds to and then you taking charge. Redirect as much as you can. Every time Rey started lunging and going ballistic at something she saw, I put a Kong or Nylabone in her mouth, tell her to focus, make her look at me and calm down. Now she does it herself. When she's stressing, she goes and gets her "chewbone" and furiously chews on it, an appropriate way to dispel some anxiety. I leave a toy in my backseat for the same purpose.

I won't tell you what to do, and can only share my own experiences in this learning curve I'm on myself. But will I say it does not sound like your dog has really hurt anything. It sounds like you need to always remember that you have to be aware at all times in certain situations. I've had the same thoughts you're having, too. I'm attached to her and her to I, so I figure if I rehome her to someone who isn't, she may have a truly horrible life, and I'd have her euthanized before I'd make her go through another rehoming (it took her about 2 months to adjust here). At this point, neither are an option, since I'm seeing slow progress. I also know part of her wild is related to her age. Only you can make the decision, but I think you'll find more containment will solve a lot of your problem, along with continual work on getting your dog focused on you above anything else. Granted, it is a LOT of exhausting work, but considering the options . . .


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Hi neo

I was wondering as well how the little dog was behaving - if you noticed that is - as you'd fallen over.

We rescued a 12 month old male GSD, and we already had an 11 year old GSD bitch who was totally confident, sociable, non-reactive, and never leashed. 

One day we left our house and were about to get into the car when a small Jack Russell appeared from another house and came racing at full speed and barking like crazy at our dogs - our older dog lost it and had the small dog in her mouth while growling and shaking it. It was horrible. John shouted 'Gemma No' and she just released the dog - no damage whatsoever - just like your Freida. We could only assume she was protecting the younger dog, as it was completely out of character. 

I'm not saying this is the case with Freida - but I am wondereing how the little dog was behaving, and bearing in mind you had fallen over.
_______________
Sue


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

Sent you a PM.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

It seems like you're in a very tough situation. You've obviously done a lot of training with this dog and she is not getting better. You say the neighbors want her gone? The exact same thing happened to us about a month ago when we moved into our new house. My husband was letting the girls out of the car to enter the home and they went for our neighbors small dog who was walking around unleashed in the middle of the street. Cece was called off before she made contact but my other dog attacked but left no marks on the little one. We felt horrible and understandably the neighbor was very upset. We apologized and went back the next day with a gift bag of treats and toys for her dog and assured her that our dogs would NEVER be outside off leash again-even the few feet from our door to the car. Perhaps you could do something similar with your neighbor and they won't be so adamant about getting rid of your dog. However, I can understand if after a lot of soul searching you decide that putting her down is the right decision.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Something else for you to consider I'm afraid. 

How old are your children? I honestly believe that containment is very difficult if you have kids. You can't rely on them to behave like adults and always do what's necessary to ensure the dog can't get out, or is safely locked in another room if friends come over. For example the kids think 'mom's got Freida in the kitchen' or whatever, and you think hubbie's got her and ........... 

We have to manage our dog but there's only the two of us - and I'm a worry freak so I check and double check. 
______________
Sue


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

For those of you who asked what the other dog was doing - I'm afraid I didn't notice, what with being on the ground whimpering in pain. I'm guessing it wasn't doing anything, because I didn't hear anything prior to letting Frieda out. I always do a quick survey after getting out of the car, and I didn't see or hear anything until I heard the little dog yowl and her owner scream. By the time I'd gotten up and run over there, Frieda was circling the little dog but not doing anything. She came right over to me and sat in front, and stayed there while we made sure everyone was ok. She just sat there like nothing had happened - it was bizarre.

Jake's Mom - my kids are nine. My son has Asperger's, so we are always always careful to make sure he shuts doors. The front door has an automatic door closer mechanism, so it will close on its own. The back door opens to the yard, which is always locked, and the gates have a combination lock that my children don't know the combination to. If anyone is over, Frieda is in my room in her crate with the door locked with a sliding bolt from outside. I have voiced my concerns to my husband about always knowing where the dog is, because honestly he's as bad as the kids once he gets absorbed in something. If there is the smallest doubt - she's up in the room with me. I feel bad that she doesn't get any freedom - but then again she can't handle it if she does.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Unless you legally have to euthanize the dog, I would refuse to do it. If it were my dog, it wouldn't leave the house without a muzzle on. That way, there can be no chance of a bite. I would also continue working with the dog as you have been, but always with a muzzle. If you feel like you cannot provide proper care for the animal (in a safe manner, for everyone in the area,) perhaps you could find a no kill rescue that could work with her and find a proper home for her.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Neo93 said:


> I feel bad that she doesn't get any freedom - but then again she can't handle it if she does.


Don't feel bad at all! This dog has a second chance at life with you and its getting the best kind of training and care it probably could have ever gotten. Not all dogs should be allowed to have freedom, don't compare her to other dogs that are stable and can walk normally, can obey under all circumstances, and are allowed the "freedoms" that owners give them. I only recently started letting my boy off leash and playing fetch in the park, I didn't have the trust in him to not run off when he saw another dog (friendly), but now that I do, he has the freedom to run without his leash on in an unfenced area. I think you're doing great with the dog, and it really doesn't sound like you need to change much. Just a little better management in unpredictable situations. It sucks that your neighbors already feel this way and that there have been so many instances when for one reason or another you slipped and didn't have the leash. In my mind those are all unacceptable because you should be a lot more vigilant knowing your dog has the issues she does.

I would just take the advice of some of the other posters talking about managing their DA dogs, its tough but it sounds like you have the ability to do it. You can never let your attention lapse for even a moment when she's out in public with you, but I truly think that its the best situation for her.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Neo, I'd like to suggest something. Just throwing an idea out there....

Going back to the small dog. When outside, without Frieda, watch the small dog's body language and behavior. Is it bossy, head up, chest out, open eye and all the other behaviors small dominant dogs present; especially when she looks at other dogs? With Frieda being FA, it is unusual for there not to be the warning growls, barks and dance they do. With this being a silent attack, I am wondering if a message was given from the small dog.

I had to do something like this when the chiwawa first appeared. Woolf kept reacting in a form completely different then his usual dance. Doing this gave me a good idea of what is going on and what direction to go.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ya know, sometimes we try too hard. 

I think your containment ideas are good. I like the locks on the fence, and the door opening out to the yard. I like the bamboo around the fencing. I like that you have made it impossible to see out of the front windows and aggress toward dogs from inside. Good, good, good. 

I would stop trying to make your dog accept other dogs. 

I might put training on hold, unless it is something that both you and she enjoy tremendously.

I would take the dog no where at all (except the vet if necessary) for a couple of months anyway. This is not punishment for attacking the dog. This is just giving the dog an opportunity to mature a little with less stress. Take her out in the yard and throw the ball to give her exercise. 

Do three to five five minute training sessions per day with one longer session every three days or so. Mix it up a little, and use lots of treats and praise. This is to solidify and grow the bond of trust between the two of you, and build her confidence. I would not use a e-collar, or prong collar, but I would use a martingale or choke chain to prevent the collar from being slipped (if you have to go to the vet). And I would muzzle her. 

In fact, to go somewhere use the front door and always muzzle before opening the front door. No exceptions. 

I do not like tethering her to a bannister to open the door. Tethering gives some dogs the feeling that they are on guard. Most bites happen when dogs are tethered. Instead I would crate her when the door bell rings. Every time. 

I would crate her when there are strangers or children in the house other than your own. 

You have to get past a stage in your dog's life. A stage that must be worked through, but a year from now, this dog might relax a whole lot from where they are today. And two years, even more. If you have a big basement, you might put a kennel for her down there. And when there are non-habitants in the home, put her in her kennel and lock it. And make downstairs off limits. 

Sometimes we try really really hard to cram a round peg into a square hole. Sometimes we have to stop and evaluate. Is Frieda better or worse with other dogs. Well if she is not better, that did not work. Maybe Frieda is not a dog-dog. And no matter how many days you try to flood her with other dogs, and doggy situations, it won't get better. But maybe by taking a break, reducing stress to a minimum, and only taking her to the place that is absolutely essential if necessary, you can try again in three or six months, and she will have matured a bit, and will be less concerned about the other dogs, and less likely to react. 

And if not, maybe your dog is a stay-at-home dog. A stay-at-home dog is not sad. There are dogs out there that prefer to be at home, and never need to go anywhere to have a wonderful life. Maybe she is one of them. 

I would not kill this dog. She has not gone that distance, though she might if nothing changes. I suggest reducing stress and giving her and you a vacation.

I do not like the idea of rehoming a dog with problems, unless you can find the right home for her. No you cannot guaranty that this dog will never see dogs or kids again. Not possible. But if you are completely honest with whoever you rehome her to, about what she has done, and what behaviors she has exhibited that make you or your husband uneasy, and you feel confidence in the person to whom you are rehoming her, I think that that may be a viable course of action, as she has not visciously attacked a person yet.

Please do not minimize the attack on the dog, or try to blame it on the other dog as some have suggested. It will not help this situation. Explain to your neighbors that you are working on the problem and she will not be taken outside of your home without a muzzle, apologize if you haven't already, and assure them that there will not be a repeat. 

This is a young dog that had a questionable beginning and you are giving it a good life. If that good life is within your property's borders, it is still a good life. It would be a crying shame for this dog to be put down for this.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

selzer said:


> Please do not minimize the attack on the dog, or try to blame it on the other dog as some have suggested. It will not help this situation. Explain to your neighbors that you are working on the problem and she will not be taken outside of your home without a muzzle, apologize if you haven't already, and assure them that there will not be a repeat.


There is a misunderstanding I think. I am not blaming the small dog. What I am doing is suggesting that the behavior, if there is one, that sent Frieda into attack mode be discovered. If that is the case, it's another piece of knowledge that will aid in Frieda's management. Part of the micromanagement, knowing what sets the dog off and to what level.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Twyla said:


> There is a misunderstanding I think. I am not blaming the small dog. What I am doing is suggesting that the behavior, if there is one, that sent Frieda into attack mode be discovered. If that is the case, it's another piece of knowledge that will aid in Frieda's management. Part of the micromanagement, knowing what sets the dog off and to what level.


Ok. But from what the OP has written the dog is looking for opportunities, even when the trainer is handling it, if the trainer is not paying 100% attention to her. The dog looks for opportunities, and there was no warning, immediate attack. I personally do not care if the dog out there was laughing and doing a hoola dance in front of this dog. Knowing that will not change the fact that this dog is what she is. She is dog aggressive at this point, and she is going to cause her owner a lot of heart ache if the little opportunist gets another opportunity. I know all the crap about dominant dogs and submissive dogs, and little dogs acting dominant and causing fights, and dogs fighting for pack order and all that. 

This dog did not live with her. It is not a pack order fight. It has nothing to do with dominance. It has to do with either being terrified of other dogs or hating other dogs. I don't know if it really matters that much which to find a solution in how to manage it.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

selzer said:


> Ok. But from what the OP has written the dog is looking for opportunities, even when the trainer is handling it, if the trainer is not paying 100% attention to her. The dog looks for opportunities, and there was no warning, immediate attack. I personally do not care if the dog out there was laughing and doing a hoola dance in front of this dog. Knowing that will not change the fact that this dog is what she is. She is dog aggressive at this point, and she is going to cause her owner a lot of heart ache if the little opportunist gets another opportunity. I know all the crap about dominant dogs and submissive dogs, and little dogs acting dominant and causing fights, and dogs fighting for pack order and all that.
> 
> This dog did not live with her. It is not a pack order fight. It has nothing to do with dominance. It has to do with either being terrified of other dogs or hating other dogs. I don't know if it really matters that much which to find a solution in how to manage it.


I am not going to take the focus of this thread off the issue the OP is having with her dog with any back and forth on this.

I made the suggestion because I know it made a difference in Woolf's management here dealing with similar issues and situation.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

I think Twyla made that point because at some point in this thread I made a comment that Frieda's reaction to this dog was silent, as opposed to what is usually a very vocal reaction, and I did not know why.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Selzer, that is a good point about tethering her. Although it is impractical for me to haul her up two flights of stairs to get to her crate, there is a small bathroom off the hallway that she actually likes to sleep in during the day. I will try putting her in there.

She is always crated when we leave and crated at night as well as crated in the car. 

I wonder how much of the sad I feel is that I wanted a dog who could do stuff with me - go on hikes, run beside the kids as they biked, maybe train for SAR. That is not the dog I got, but I have to be careful not to project my feelings on to Frieda. I do think she gets bored in the house, but hopefully I can find some back yard stuff for her to do.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I think a lot of your decision will have to base on whether your neighbor wants your dog gone or not? Maybe I missed it, have you gotten a chance to talk to them? Are you going to keep Frieda if you neighbor insists on getting rid of her? 

Other than management, you need to have 100% recall on this dog. No matter what happens, on or off leash, with or without a muzzle, this dog needs to able to recall off of anything. IMHO, keep her only if you think you can achieve that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Twyla said:


> I am not going to take the focus of this thread off the issue the OP is having with her dog with any back and forth on this.
> 
> I made the suggestion because I know it made a difference in Woolf's management here dealing with similar issues and situation.


Twyla, I am sorry. I was typing my post when you posted yours and my post had nothing to do with your statement individually, although your statement fit into what I had said. You came on and defended your post. That is ok. That tiny section in my post which you dragged out as being an attack on yours, had absolutely nothing to do with you. So it was nothing personal. But I will defend my rebuttle, it really doesn't matter why Frieda attacked, what is important is managing the behavior, what is important is that she no longer has the barking, lunging, growling, snapping behavior to rely upon, and has to prevent situations before they become situations without any warning.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Neo93 said:


> Frieda is 18 months old. She has been like this since she was rescued. It gets better and gets worse, but it's always been there. Yes, she will react even on a normal leash and collar. She reacts even worse on a pinch/prong, and using a martingale collar didn't really make any difference.
> 
> I don't think I'm nervous. We have worked really hard at giving her clear boundaries, and she respects them. Monday I didn't even see that the other dog was out - I would have waited until they walked by the house before unloading her from the car if I had seen her. Usually her reaction to dogs is bark bark bark, lunge, dance around, growl - but this was very silent. No warning.


I am sooo sorry for you. I had to rehome my beloved GSD Sasha for the same thing. I completely understand what you are going thru. Sasha was either in a calm state or in an intense attack n kill state. Lots of training and still not a lot of progress.
I was very lucky that she only attacked my dogs or myself on my watch. I sent Sasha to a special training facility at Lexington prison. 
Later, I find out the trainer felt she was 'better" and rehomed her with another family with a little kid! Last I heard the lady found me on this website no doubt. Sasha has attacked her neighbors dog and the new owner was very concern about her aggression. So obviously she has not progressed. 
I wish I would have never rehomed her but she was terrorizing my other dogs. I am in constant agony that she is not with me. Sometimes I wish I would have kept her but I know my other dogs are better now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Neo93 said:


> Selzer, that is a good point about tethering her. Although it is impractical for me to haul her up two flights of stairs to get to her crate, there is a small bathroom off the hallway that she actually likes to sleep in during the day. I will try putting her in there.
> 
> She is always crated when we leave and crated at night as well as crated in the car.
> 
> I wonder how much of the sad I feel is that I wanted a dog who could do stuff with me - go on hikes, run beside the kids as they biked, maybe train for SAR. That is not the dog I got, but I have to be careful not to project my feelings on to Frieda. I do think she gets bored in the house, but hopefully I can find some back yard stuff for her to do.


If you can't have the one you want, then love the one you've got. My dogs would be a pretty sad lot if they wanted a track star to run with them, or a shepherd to provide sheep for them to chase and herd, or someone who loves to get dirty and and wet, or someone with lots of money so they could get bully sticks and spa days. 

The bathroom makes me a little nervous as GSDs are known to open doors, and that might make the pup dog more likely to rush into the room. No chance at getting a crate and parking it near the front door so it becomes a ritual, door bell rings, dog goes in crate. Maybe if you are not taking her many places the crate in the car can be moved in the house for a period. 

1


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm with Sue, in that, love the dog you have

I would not euthanize or even think of rehoming Freida..You know what you've got, you have gone above and beyond to make sure all is safe. Accidents happen. While I'm not saying her behavior was appropriate, it surely could have been MUCH worse.

Sometimes just the noise alone (barking, carrying on), makes a person who doesn't know her much more 'afraid', which is understandable.

I don't know if it would help in your yard or house, when she goes bonkers, barking etc, but how about a bark collar? I have one for my aussie he's 11 years old. I pride myself on being a good trainer with all my dogs, but that dang dog has been the bain of my existence since I got him at 12 weeks old with his 'barking'...He works himself up into such a lather, he just 'zones' out, say if he sees a dog go by, person walking by, a bug flying by

He is the first dog I have ever resorted to throwing a bark collar on...IT WORKS it's a self zap, gets stronger goes to 5levels, he's a tad weird, and just loves it when I put that darn bark collar on him, and he does not bark...I swear it honestly chills him out because he doesn't go into the 'zone', because he's not barking and working himself up..

It won't help with behavior issues, but it may keep her barking toned down, thus keeping 'her' toned down when she goes bonkers at your fence...*I also do not leave him unattended with this on..

Just a thought...

I know your neighbors may be unhappy, but it sounds like no one made any kind of report, she did not bite anyone/anything, scarey for sure, but I would keep doing what your doing, and for your peace of mind, walk her with a muzzle..

Diane


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

selzer said:


> The bathroom makes me a little nervous as GSDs are known to open doors, and that might make the pup dog more likely to rush into the room. No chance at getting a crate and parking it near the front door so it becomes a ritual, door bell rings, dog goes in crate. Maybe if you are not taking her many places the crate in the car can be moved in the house for a period.
> 
> 1


What - you can't lock your bathroom from the outside?:laugh: Ours has a sliding bolt lock on it - dating back to when my son was obsessed with holding his face in front of the toilet bowl and flushing the toilet so his face caught the spray . We put a lock on the outside to keep him from going in without our knowledge. Who'd have thought it would come in handy years later?


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

San said:


> I think a lot of your decision will have to base on whether your neighbor wants your dog gone or not? Maybe I missed it, have you gotten a chance to talk to them? Are you going to keep Frieda if you neighbor insists on getting rid of her?
> 
> Other than management, you need to have 100% recall on this dog. No matter what happens, on or off leash, with or without a muzzle, this dog needs to able to recall off of anything. IMHO, keep her only if you think you can achieve that.


The neighbors want the dog gone - no matter what steps we take. Their view is that safeguards failed once, and they can fail again. I don't think they can legally force me to get rid of her, though, since she did not bite. I think the bigger question is am I going to keep her if my DH wants to rehome her. He is not altogether on board with the idea of keeping her because he feels it is "too risky." I don't think he will insist, though.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I haven't even read through this whole post, but I'm in the keep her and love her crowd. You might not have neighbors that are your friends anymore, but that is there problem Accidents happened and I'm positive that if your dog wanted to do damage she would have done damage. Just be as careful as you have been and do not give her any opportunities. Good Luck


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

neo93... I don't have any experience with the problems you are having, but I do admire your dedication to this dog, and your sense of humor...hoping it all works out well...:thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Normally, I am always trying to keep neighbors on my good side. But that is because I do not want neighbors to give me trouble about my dogs. If your neighbor wants you to get rid of the dog for an altercation where no was injured, and not even their pet had any visible injury, I think they are making an unreasonable request. 

The husband is the one you need to work on. If the dog is more solid around you, and less solid when the husband is handling her, that can be a big part of the problem. I am not married so I really do not have a lot of experience dealing with the other half, but for this I would put my foot down. I would have a discussion with the husband, and tell him that the dog is staying. Now, let's discuss what you want for us to do to make this work. If that means you and only you walk the dog, ok. If that means he is a lot more involved in training, leadership, and management, ok. The details the two of you need to work out and agree upon and own. Otherwise you are dead in the water.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I don't have any advice but I wanted to let you know that I think you're doing the right thing by your girl. We're in the same situation with our GSD Sasha and she just turned 4 in Febuary and I wanted to give you hope that with alot of work on our part, alot of managment (muzzles, crates, always on leash), and alot of accepting her boundaries she has improved alot  I understand the disappointment you are feeling from not having the "constant companion" dog that you wanted. I'm in the same boat. Some days I wish so badly that Sasha could do everything I wanted to do with her but our relationship with her and her behavior has improved a ton once we accepted what her limits were and stay within them. 

You've received some awesome advice on here so far so I won't repeat it all but I wish you luck with your girl!! I hope you're able to find a routine that makes everyone happy, including Frieda! 

Oh, and I would tell the neighbors that this is NOT their decision. She didn't hurt their dog even though she easily could have killed it.


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

selzer said:


> If you can't have the one you want, then love the one you've got. My dogs would be a pretty sad lot if they wanted a track star to run with them, or a shepherd to provide sheep for them to chase and herd, or someone who loves to get dirty and and wet, or someone with lots of money so they could get bully sticks and spa days.
> 
> The bathroom makes me a little nervous as GSDs are known to open doors, and that might make the pup dog more likely to rush into the room. No chance at getting a crate and parking it near the front door so it becomes a ritual, door bell rings, dog goes in crate. Maybe if you are not taking her many places the crate in the car can be moved in the house for a period.
> 
> 1


I'm 100% behind this statement. Just because you don't have the dog you 100% want, doesn't mean you give up on the one you have. We rescued Teddy at 9 months, all his baggage included, including issues from physical abuse. We even had to train him to not bite/attack my father (he hated men). Through years of training we taught Teddy where his boundaries were, and if a dog was outside those boundaries he wouldn't bother them. We eventually got to the point that all was needed was the threat of an electric fence. His dog aggressive tendencies were evident from the first day we brought him home. Fortunately we had the benefit of having a father that trained K9s for the CT State Police. It was essential that every member of the family worked with him every day to retrain this behavior, including both me and my sister (kindergarten and pre-school). Luckily we had tolerant neighbors who would use their dogs as training tools. Your entire family will need to participate in this training. Even the children. 

Although you cannot work with your neighbors in this situation, you can still work with a trainer to establish the boundaries to your yard as a line that should NEVER be crossed. If you work on the boundaries, you can possibly live a life where, although she will be tempted to leave the yard, she will most often respect the boundaries, and everyone could live in peace. You are also willing to do anything you can to save your dog. I know that feeling, we had multiple instances where we were backed against the wall with being forced to put Teddy down, either attacking my sister his first day home or attacking a neighbors' pet. You are working with a professional trainer, instead of forcing your dog to accept others, can you work with her to learn and abide by the boundaries of her yard? I still support fencing your yard in order to give her a safe place to run, but I sill think it will be beneficial to work on this learning. Remember, I've watched Freyja clear 6 feet from a standstill. After you establish the "safe zone" you can expand this to your walks. I have dealt with a severely DA dog. If you need any encouragement or advice, feel free to PM me.


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## Caitydid255 (Aug 28, 2010)

Neo93 said:


> The neighbors want the dog gone - no matter what steps we take. Their view is that safeguards failed once, and they can fail again. I don't think they can legally force me to get rid of her, though, since she did not bite. I think the bigger question is am I going to keep her if my DH wants to rehome her. He is not altogether on board with the idea of keeping her because he feels it is "too risky." I don't think he will insist, though.


Our neighbors bound together to remove Teddy. He had killed several of their cats, and had attacked several of their dogs (they were in our yard) Quite frankly, your girl hasn't even risen to this level. Their fear was diminished once they saw the steps we were taking to retrain and work with him. After viewing our work firsthand, and being asked to be involved in his training, the coalition began to break apart. The only die-hard member of the group was a man who believed his dogs should be allowed to wander wherever they pleased, never-mind that his dog actually bit a human. I say that you start working with a trainer and as your training progresses, involve the neighbors. This will show to them firsthand the effort you are putting into training your girl.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

krystyne73 said:


> I was very lucky that she only attacked my dogs or myself on my watch.


Yikes! I think if one of my own dogs ever attacked me that would be the end of story.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Neo93, I think you are awesome. You are doing everything right.

For backyard stuff to entertain/exercise her, can you cobble together some agility equipment? I know there are some do it yourself type designs using cheap materials like PVC. And you can do the nosework in your backyard too.

Best of luck, I really hope that time helps like Selzer said and maybe when she is a little older she will be better able to control her impulses.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> I would stop trying to make your dog accept other dogs.
> 
> I might put training on hold, unless it is something that both you and she enjoy tremendously.
> 
> ...


Completely agree with all these bits.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Neo93 said:


> The neighbors want the dog gone - no matter what steps we take. Their view is that safeguards failed once, and they can fail again. I don't think they can legally force me to get rid of her, though, since she did not bite. I think the bigger question is am I going to keep her if my DH wants to rehome her. He is not altogether on board with the idea of keeping her because he feels it is "too risky." I don't think he will insist, though.


I haven't read every single post so maybe someone has already mentioned this, but what stood out to me in is that she COULD have bitten the dog, but did not. Dogs don't generally miss. If she had intended to hurt the dog, she would have, so the fact that she had the opportunity to but did not means that while it looked and sounded terrifying, there was probably no intent to harm. 

I would certainly not be pleased with my dog, but euthanasia seems extreme under the circumstances. Maybe you could explain it this way to your husband? I do think strict management and finding a good trainer, as others have suggested, are a good solution. Please don't make a rash decision based on an incident that could have been so much worse. If she had killed, seriously injured, or even bitten the other dog, that would be different. The fact that she didn't is a factor that should be given the weight it deserves.


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## Neo93 (Apr 25, 2011)

Yes, I have pointed out at length that she did not bite, maim, or otherwise injure either dog she has gone after. It apparently makes no difference to my husband or to my neighbors. "But she could have..." or "But she has the potential to harm one of the children...."

Any dog does. Heck, their yappy little dogs that are off leash every afternoon in the middle of the street COULD bite and inflict some serious damage. Yes, Frieda went after the dog. I had her on leash and fell as I was turning around. I don't think I could have done anything to prevent losing control of her at that point - but still, she was my responsibility and I failed. 

I will not euthanize her unless legally forced to do so, and I don't think they can do that at this point. I absolutely cannot give up on her now. She may not be my dream dog, but she is my heart dog. 

Thank you, everyone, for your support and suggestions for helping Frieda.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

:thumbup:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Neo93 said:


> Yes, I have pointed out at length that she did not bite, maim, or otherwise injure either dog she has gone after. It apparently makes no difference to my husband or to my neighbors. "But she could have..." or "But she has the potential to harm one of the children...."
> 
> Any dog does.


Exactly. Obviously they don't understand that, but it's the truth - ANY dog. At least in her case you know that she "could have" but did not. Better that than finding out the hard way what your dog is capable of. I hope you can find a way to get that through to him.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

i would say at her age there is no way that training has come anywhere close to maxxed out!

i had a dog who was thrown out of obedience club due to feared liability. she was reactive to most anything a football field away even! an absolute terror in her youth. your dog is still very much in this youth stage as a GSD. A behaviorist was quite frightened and warned about that girl too!

she turned out to be an incredible with very high scores in her multiple titles. We worried, I cried. But in the end that reactive, aggressive acting terror became an incredible dog. At the age your dog is our training had only its moderate effect due to the maturity of the dog. I was novice and not familiar with what to do.

Wish you lived close. Hope a workable solution can be found.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Samba said:


> i would say at her age there is no way that training has come anywhere close to maxxed out!
> 
> i had a dog who was thrown out of obedience club due to feared liability. she was reactive to most anything a football field away even! an absolute terror in her youth. your dog is still very much in this youth stage as a GSD. A behaviorist was quite frightened and warned about that girl too!
> 
> she turned out to be an incredible with very high scores in her multiple titles. We worried, I cried. But in the end that reactive, aggressive acting terror became an incredible dog. At the age your dog is our training had only its moderate effect due to the maturity of the dog. I was novice and not familiar with what to do.


:thumbup: Totally! Halo went through a weird suspicious phase around a year and a half old, and there was an incident that scared the crap out of us. She was very friendly to most people but every so often, completely unpredictably, she would react to someone as if she wanted to kill them. We found an excellent private trainer to help us work through it, and she has matured into a fabulous dog. We joined a flyball club this year and Halo was in her first tournament last month, running 7 clean heats and earning her first two titles! She's sweet and loving and kissy - just a delight!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

its not a fun journey thats for sure. i have one similar to her. the first three years were very frustrating and stressful, trying to figure things out, find the right trainer, and get things into perspective. Sam my gsd has a tendancy to charge other dogs. he did go after a neighbors dog, they were walking past my drive, i was outside mowing the lawn, the little dog in the past had been running loose in the neighborhood and come in my yard before. the woman had the little dog on a flexy lead and her dog was halfway in my driveway while they walked past. Sam saw it in his yard and took off after it. alot of noise, and the little dog was squealing sounded like he was being killed. i grabbed ran and grabbed Sam, needless to say the woman wasn't happy, and niether was i. the little dog had no marks or bite wounds, thankfully..........i am not excusing Sam since this little dog has come in the yard terrorizing my dogs before, but under no circumstances do i want him to feel he has to attack other dogs.
we have several friends with mild dogs that i walk with. Sam has gotten used to them and is pretty good. every once in a while he may get out of line, and i put him down and hold him there until he's calm, then i give him another chance to go see the dog, and then reward him for greeting nicely.
all i can say is stay with the training, don't give up, things will get better with time if you are consistant and determined. i had a double wammy because not only was my dog aggressive with other dogs but he was not good with people. he's 4 years old now, and has excepted people quite well with my consistant supervision. he will always tend to be dog aggressive especially if there are loose dogs. he is good onleash i can get his focus and redirect.
it is a case of fear and not a balanced dog, stinks, because its a huge commitment. its what your willing to put in and alot of determination. there will be set backs along the way, but you have to re group and keep going.


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