# Anna 11.5 months old



## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Some obedience with Anna this morning 



IPO obedience with Anna - YouTube



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Looking pretty good for your first dog! 

I admit I only watched like the first minute before I got distracted, but I wanted to comment (with my limited experience) and say that instead of waiting for her to get ahead and need to bounce back to get into position, I would be rewarding more frequently for getting it right, breaking for a little tug to amp her up, then going back for more. 

This is where I'm at with Patton, if you care to see. We haven't been spending much time on it and I don't know a lot of what I'm doing, either... Just trying to keep him in position and reward for proper positioning as much as possible. It's hard to tell sometimes! 





 
Also, love your vest! Where did you get it? Is it a training vest or other?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Liz&Anna said:


> Some obedience with Anna this morning
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Cool. It will get even better if you take 1-2 steps only then reward with ball BUT throw the ball back behind you and not in front as you have been doing.

These 2 simple changes will help in,

1. Reward while in good position
2. Stop forging (dog is forging because of reward direction anticipation)


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Nice video! I wouldn't throw the ball forward either. Don't give the dog any reason to want to forge. Honestly the only place that ball needs to be is under your armpit and then just raise your arm and drop it to the dog. 

Also clear to see the dog lacks rear end awareness. It isn't comfortable backing up or turning it's butt. Lots more turns while standing still and in motion!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I think what you are doing looks great! Your dog is coming along very nice and you are doing a great job. Nice pivot into position.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I just realized that I was actually watching DJEtzels video and not Liz&Anna's video. Liz yours looks good as well. Dog training is a learning process. Keep up the good work!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

robk said:


> I just realized that I was actually watching DJEtzels video and not Liz&Anna's video. Liz yours looks good as well. Dog training is a learning process. Keep up the good work!


Whoops!! Sorry/thanks? lol :wild:


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liz&Anna said:


> Some obedience with Anna this morning
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Nice! The only suggestion I have that I didn't see yet is to not always throw the ball away from you. Throw it past you(or between your legs) as she's running back. You can already see that her recall is far from you. This is because she's anticipating the ball getting thrown behind her. 

Also the "find/follow the leg" game like in DjEtzels video is great. That's all I did with Kimber for a long while.

Edit: Also walking faster(with a purpose) can help keep the dog engaged and focused.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Nice! I like following your journey with Anna. This may be nitpicking, but this is what I see...and only because I get nitpicked by my TD for some of the same stuff lol.

You lose the dog on your first step, can be remedied by doing some focus work and rewarding unexpectedly on the first step...then the third...then the second...then the first, then the fifth..etc. Create the expectation for the reward. 

You also get a head drop every tenth or so step. I would add a lot more rewards into your healing. You've got some forging, I'd do some pivot work and make BIG circles to the left in healing. I have a video of me doing some of this (pivot work). I put the leash behind my legs and kind of steer the dog with the leash to teach the mechanics of pivoting. I am still doing a LOT of this to teach my dog rear-end-awareness. I also reward from my left and just drop the ball/tug out of my armpit or pull it out of my back pocket with my left hand and back up so the dog has to jump back to get the reward.

You use a lot of body language and signals to lure/help the dog into position, turning, motioning, hand luring (especially start/finish). I would work on phasing that out. Once my dog knows the mechanics, I correct into position for noncompliance. Reward for compliance and during the attempt(touch, voice, etc...) and big rewards for the perfect picture (break for the toy).

Do you have to use a tennis ball for reward? Can you use a tug/ball on a string? Anything that keeps the dog interacting and playing with you instead of running away? I personally like the constant interaction during play, but that may be a personal preference. I find that it seems to keep the dog even more engaged with me during healing, everything is about me. Reward is fighting/playing with me. I think it also bleeds over into the dumb bell. You don't want the dog dropping the dumbell every time it comes in because that's what it learned to do with the ball.

So, although I seem to be really nitpicking...it's only because I heard a lot of the same stuff and our dogs are the exact same age (I think mine is a month younger than yours). I focused way more on play/fun for the last several minutes with mostly a TON of focus and foundation play work. Focus under LOTS of distraction, pivot work, dumb bell work, and send out work. I didn't do a lot of heeling obedience, but that is changing a lot right about now. Healing is getting more serious lol. My TD sets the bar pretty high for obedience and we don't move on in healing (longer distance healing) until the picture is perfect right from the get go lol. It's a pain, but I'm also learning a LOT and having to work a lot with my dog. So, I'm new to this (about 20 months into IPO, ~12 months with my current dog)...this is just all my personal/humble opinion, and there are obviously a million and a half ways to train obedience IPO.  Cheers!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Thank you everyone!! I've been trying to get Anna more engaged with food rewards for months now to reshape the behavior, she does t care to much for it, even if she is starving I get more focus from a toy...my trainer says no toy (any one know why someone would encourage a reward that isn't the best motivator for your dog??) 

We have about a year to get her heel perfected >_< and it's been the hardest thing for me, if I lure her she won't look at the food or follow it (in heel position) she looks at my face- always :/ 

Hahah but thank you I'll check back in, in a few weeks and see what we have


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

I would ditch the food all together. Why can't you lure with a ball? Food lowers drive. You want to build drive during heeling to keep the dog engaged and precise. 

Just get a ball big enough that the dog can see and stick it under your arm pit. The dog will stare at the ball and will move with the ball. That's luring.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I agree with the above! 

If food's not working, use a toy! (preferably one you can tug with!  )


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I am going to disagree and say that improper use of food lowers drive, look at how Alexis uses with her puppy for luring and there can be an example of to you successfully using food to build drive. I like to use food to teach in the kitchen and a tug to work with on the field. Some dogs need the food to help teach them clearly where a tug makes them go spastic so longer to learn. Also want the dog driving into the food or tug and work with you. That why I like tugs more than balls for reward so when they get you can tug and play rough with them to get more excited. With our TD he always encourage from the first step to have the dog looking at us since that is the starting or we can lose too quiclky. I had a hard time hearing your yes or release command so up that if you can. Also I would reward quicker a couple of time for you the dog was starting to look away and then you rewarded to late. Overall a decent picture a few things to clear up but coming along. I think I rad that you are using tennis balls for reward my understanding is the ocvering on the outside can be bad for dogs teeth so one thing to think about.

For DJEtzel did you notice your dog does not always at position his butt is about 3-4" off the ground in 3 of the formal sit positions beside you, careful that can be a problem later. Otherwise nice enthusiasm from both of you.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

szariksdad said:


> I am going to disagree and say that improper use of food lowers drive, look at how Alexis uses with her puppy for luring and there can be an example of to you successfully using food to build drive. I like to use food to teach in the kitchen and a tug to work with on the field. Some dogs need the food to help teach them clearly where a tug makes them go spastic so longer to learn. Also want the dog driving into the food or tug and work with you. That why I like tugs more than balls for reward so when they get you can tug and play rough with them to get more excited. With our TD he always encourage from the first step to have the dog looking at us since that is the starting or we can lose too quiclky. I had a hard time hearing your yes or release command so up that if you can. Also I would reward quicker a couple of time for you the dog was starting to look away and then you rewarded to late. Overall a decent picture a few things to clear up but coming along. I think I rad that you are using tennis balls for reward my understanding is the ocvering on the outside can be bad for dogs teeth so one thing to think about.
> 
> For DJEtzel did you notice your dog does not always at position his butt is about 3-4" off the ground in 3 of the formal sit positions beside you, careful that can be a problem later. Otherwise nice enthusiasm from both of you.



Thanks!! I do have a ball with a rope I just didn't have it with me when i had my boyfriend record us, unless I can see how I'm doing I often miss little thins like they every now and then head drop -_- (should have rewarded before that happened) 

Is it OK that she looks at my face as long as she isn't forging? All I want to know is- will a heel with a dog looking at your face (as long as there is no forging or any other issues) be ok in a trial? Everyone keeps trying to have me reteach a new position and it doesn't seem to be working it looks good when we aren't moving but the second I take a step she's looking at my face and luring with food at this point does not work (because she thinks looking at my face is right, I've been doing it since she was 8 weeks old) 

This is my first working dog, and this has been very hard!! Hahah, it's crazy, everything else is so easy!!! The tracking the bitework, all the other parts of OB, but this darn heel is killing me!!!!!


Thank you all for you advice


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I start food work with puppies and depending on the dog, will stay with food for a while.

This is Carma with food foundation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghzd-pvu5oA&list=UUej_BHg9iAW0obB7jQfr89w

And when I introduced the ball 2 weeks later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBbpz1ClIKk&list=UUej_BHg9iAW0obB7jQfr89w

And some progression a few months later when I began asking for absolute correct position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUKGbYTFqRs&list=UUej_BHg9iAW0obB7jQfr89w

I have worked some off the body rewards by heeling around a ball and sending her to it as well, but find that for this dog, the delivery from the armpit works best for her most often. I also use a ball on a rope to encourage the tugging and engagement with me. For your dog, I would bring in more rewards while she is in correct position, so she doesn't get in the habit of stopping forward and having to double back to correct herself in the right position. If she likes a ball, I would get one on a rope and start rewarding her from the left side, either under the arm or with the left hand throwing behind her.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Liz&Anna said:


> Thanks!! I do have a ball with a rope I just didn't have it with me when i had my boyfriend record us, unless I can see how I'm doing I often miss little thins like they every now and then head drop -_- (should have rewarded before that happened)
> 
> Is it OK that she looks at my face as long as she isn't forging? All I want to know is- will a heel with a dog looking at your face (as long as there is no forging or any other issues) be ok in a trial? Everyone keeps trying to have me reteach a new position and it doesn't seem to be working it looks good when we aren't moving but the second I take a step she's looking at my face and luring with food at this point does not work (because she thinks looking at my face is right, I've been doing it since she was 8 weeks old)
> 
> ...


You could get a bh with the way you're heeling but you aren't going to score very high in trail. The most important part of heeling is the body position. Dogs shoulders parallel to your leg the entire time.


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Nice dogs and nice work! Bear is almost 10 months old and starting heeling for both IPO and AKC obedience. We're both learning as we go - it's my first time to teach a dog to heel, and it's not as easy as it looks. No videos yet, haha. It's always nice to see what others are doing and to hear what has worked/didn't work for others.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Liz&Anna said:


> Thanks!! I do have a ball with a rope I just didn't have it with me when i had my boyfriend record us, unless I can see how I'm doing I often miss little thins like they every now and then head drop -_- (should have rewarded before that happened)
> 
> Is it OK that she looks at my face as long as she isn't forging? All I want to know is- will a heel with a dog looking at your face (as long as there is no forging or any other issues) be ok in a trial? Everyone keeps trying to have me reteach a new position and it doesn't seem to be working it looks good when we aren't moving but the second I take a step she's looking at my face and luring with food at this point does not work (because she thinks looking at my face is right, I've been doing it since she was 8 weeks old)
> 
> ...


Hey Liz, I know you were pretty adamant about not stepping back, but I think you'd be better off spending some time really playing with the ball to build her desire for it. I think the problem is going to be that her foundation is now eye contact, and thats really,really hard to maintain and really easy to turn into forging, then crowding and bumping, and then just losing attention altogether. 

Shes going to have to want that ball more then anything for you to be able to teach her to target it on the left side, under your arm or on your shoulder.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Liz, I know you were pretty adamant about not stepping back, but I think you'd be better off spending some time really playing with the ball to build her desire for it. I think the problem is going to be that her foundation is now eye contact, and thats really,really hard to maintain and really easy to turn into forging, then crowding and bumping, and then just losing attention altogether.
> 
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> Shes going to have to want that ball more then anything for you to be able to teach her to target it on the left side, under your arm or on your shoulder.



She OBSESSES Over the ball- it is her ultimate reward, she will do anything for it and stop at nothing to get it, only thing is, after like 20 minutes maybe a little less, could even be 15 minutes of actual fetch I can tell I've lost her, dunno if it makes much since, she gets like a glazed look in her eye lol, she foams at the mouth and her pupil dilate and I know at that moment shaping behavior is out of the question and we have to stop. 

I can't leave her toys out she gets nothing unles she is working for it and the ball is special she only gets it from me, and only when training or dock diving.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> I start food work with puppies and depending on the dog, will stay with food for a while.
> 
> This is Carma with food foundation.
> 
> ...




I LOOOOVVE your dog and you obedience!!! Love!!!! I always watch your videos and wish I could go back to when Anna was small (because I didn't plan on doing IPO so I messed up allot when she was younger) and try to do things exactly the way you do! I'm always very impressed with your work!! Thank you, I do reward from under my arm sometimes bit she still looks at my face -_- maybe a larger toy?


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

osito23 said:


> Nice dogs and nice work! Bear is almost 10 months old and starting heeling for both IPO and AKC obedience. We're both learning as we go - it's my first time to teach a dog to heel, and it's not as easy as it looks. No videos yet, haha. It's always nice to see what others are doing and to hear what has worked/didn't work for others.



Yup that's really the only reason I check in here any more! I creep through the IPO section all the time


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Liz&Anna said:


> I LOOOOVVE your dog and you obedience!!! Love!!!! I always watch your videos and wish I could go back to when Anna was small (because I didn't plan on doing IPO so I messed up allot when she was younger) and try to do things exactly the way you do! I'm always very impressed with your work!! Thank you, I do reward from under my arm sometimes bit she still looks at my face -_- maybe a larger toy?


You'd have to reprogram her to stare at the ball instead. Walk with it in your hand but straight above her head. Take baby steps in the beginning, rewarding for just sitting in basic position and staring at the ball, then for one step, then two, etc. 

This is Jason, from this forum. He does what I'm talking about. You are essentially training them to walk with their head straight vs looking inwards. But like I said, you would have to back track for weeks, if not months, to re program her idea of heeling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS5B7eJBpRg&list=UUPLhTirxrVhvT716qHOZ8UA


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

At about 1:25, look where Carma goes on the release. Thats what you want Liz, that expectation that the ball could always be there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUKGbYTFqRs&list=UUej_BHg9iAW0obB7jQfr89w


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> For DJEtzel did you notice your dog does not always at position his butt is about 3-4" off the ground in 3 of the formal sit positions beside you, careful that can be a problem later. Otherwise nice enthusiasm from both of you.


Thank you for this! It's something aware of, but not always noticing- we trained for a while in a room full of mirrors which helped SO much. I really need an outside eye when training to make sure I am noticing. I lean to check and he moves with my shoulders. :-/


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

That the nice thing of training with a spotter. have you tried to just turn your head to look instead of the shoulders or does he move with that one too.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I think steve is right with her looking at your eyes it can usually lead to the forging especially since you reward to the front of you instead of from the shoulder. One thing you can do with the food is bring down like you do and have a small nibble and then bring up to the shoulder and take one step when she is right and reward that and build up. The other option is to grad a wooden dowel and put in your right hand and when she is forging tap across the front of her to back her up into position. But then reward the right position with her so she gets it. That might work to solve the problem. Alexis is right in that once we have created a learned behavior one way it often takes twice as long to unlearn and relearn the behavior a different way.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> That the nice thing of training with a spotter. have you tried to just turn your head to look instead of the shoulders or does he move with that one too.


He doesn't move much, if at all with just a head turn, it's just hard for me to tell without leaning much. Lol.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A turn of the head is enough body movement for many dogs when learning. Even a shoulder higher than the other can cue the dog. I was told to look down/ thru, instead of turning my head.

If you ever want a spotter DJ, let me know, when K is recovered I'd be happy to train somewhere with you. It always great to have someone spot obedience and report in/ follow along during tracking.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I have a new question- so I've started using the ball under my arm, she is much more intense and seems happier, we working on LOTS of left turns, they aren't perfect but there improving, is this position better??






Also- new problem maybe, so I'm starting to reward on the first step so that she doesn't drop her head, my question is, and it's hard to explain I'm sure I'm not the only person who has seen this, when she is in fuss while we are still, her body/paw placement is correct but she angels out, like she's ready for the ball. I don't know if that makes sense 

Will this pass? I don't want to reward her unless her shoulder is straight and in line with my leg


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

That looks MUCH better! Only advice I would have is to pick up the pace and walk faster. As far as her changing position to anticipate reward, I would have to see it to really understand, but I would probably just keep doing what you're doing. Sometimes maybe reward during motion of the heeling and not always during a halt.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

GatorDog said:


> That looks MUCH better! Only advice I would have is to pick up the pace and walk faster. As far as her changing position to anticipate reward, I would have to see it to really understand, but I would probably just keep doing what you're doing. Sometimes maybe reward during motion of the heeling and not always during a halt.



Great! Thank you!! I'll try and get a picture of it, I realized it while trying to stop her head dropping in the first step


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

That looks so nice!


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Thank you!! This is like the first positive feed back I have really gotten


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