# Opinions please on this lineage



## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Hi there - am considering a puppy from the following lineage

Curious to know if any of the experts out there see any red flags here in terms of unstable temperament/aggression etc.









Vera zo Severnej hranice | Hundeprofil - Informationen und Daten – working-dog


Alle relevanten Informationen sowie Bilder, Videos und einen detaillierten Stammbaum zu Vera zo Severnej hranice findest du bei working-dog.



www.working-dog.com









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Onyx von D'Andico


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Onyx von D'Andico




www.pedigreedatabase.com





Thanks!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i see a generations on generations of missing hip info, titles, etc.
more than i’m comfortable with unless you’ve verified the information elsewhere?


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

No I have no idea about any of it, although both the immediate parents are supposed to have good hip results. Do you see any unstable aggression anywhere in that lineage?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

YES....
And if names are cited, people get in an uproar and a snit because THEIR dog may have that name in it's pedigree "and it is a wonderful dog! It is a perfect dog" on and on and there is no discussing negatives publically on this board as it starts unholy war!

Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Absent information on pedigreedatabase only means the person who put the dog in didn't fill out all the information. You should go back to the owner and ask for HD/ED information, DM information, any titles/training in the that line. I just don't think it's even fair to try to give an opinion with all the missing information.

The one thing I've seen consistent with Karn progeny is a bit of nerve and leaking in drive. But you also will see a ton of natural aggression. Now - that is a generalization without taking into account the rest of the pedigree. It only what I'm seeing in dogs that have him within 5 generations from different breeders.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Hi, when you say a bit of nerve and leaking in drive, what does that mean?


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

wolfstraum said:


> YES....
> And if names are cited, people get in an uproar and a snit because THEIR dog may have that name in it's pedigree "and it is a wonderful dog! It is a perfect dog" on and on and there is no discussing negatives publically on this board as it starts unholy war!
> 
> Lee


Thank you. I don't need to know which dog or lineage has the aggression issues, just whether or not there is instability in temperament, so by the sounds of it there is.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sambazon said:


> Hi, when you say a bit of nerve and leaking in drive, what does that mean?


They are noisy and screechy while they are in drive because they have a hard time capping drive (containing themselves). Leaking is their way of unloading. Depending on the severity, it could be a nerve issue. I just find it annoying. This dog (does not have Karn in him) leaks the whole obedience routine. He's a world level dog and one of the top producers in the U.S. right now. Find his obedience routine from Nationals and see if you can hear him. (disclaimer - this dog is a half uncle to my girl. It's why I said my statement above is general. The leaking in her could very well have come thru the Lennox lines too)








Vegas von der Burg Hinte – working-dog


You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Vegas von der Burg Hinte at working-dog.



en.working-dog.com


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Sambazon you have two threads going right now that are both with regards to a breeder/trainer who is banned from this forum.
While opinions are all fine and well I would hope that you are asking these questions of him as well. 
The man is a legitimate and respected trainer and it seems unfair to be potentially damaging his reputation when he cannot speak.
I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong, just perhaps that you should be mindful. If he were not banned that would be different.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

for the record- I have absolutely NO idea of who owns these dogs -whether one or two people- or anything about the owner as listed on Working Dog - I looked only at pedigrees....

Lee


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

And I don't care if the breeder is Max Emil Friedrich von Stephanitz. 11,000 dollars is too much money for a 4 month old puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> @Sambazon you have two threads going right now that are both with regards to a breeder/trainer who is banned from this forum.
> While opinions are all fine and well I would hope that you are asking these questions of him as well.
> The man is a legitimate and respected trainer and it seems unfair to be potentially damaging his reputation when he cannot speak.
> I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong, just perhaps that you should be mindful. If he were not banned that would be different.


I'm sure there are posts that I'm not seeing that prompted your post so just to say that regardless of whether someone is banned from this forum, people should be talking to the breeder/trainer. Most breeders and trainers are not on this forum. This forum has turned into a black hole for that with very few trainers and breeders on here and they are either on Facebook or have ditched social media all together. 

So realistically, I see no difference discussing a breeder/trainer that is banned vs the many we discuss that aren't even on this board and are unaware they are being discussed. I distinctly remember a breeder being bashed for the website from someone who had zero clue what the real deal was with the dog. Just yammering away as if she was had something worth saying. And people on the board seem to think that's just fine to do. So...yeah....zero difference just because they are banned.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> And I don't care if the breeder is Max Emil Friedrich von Stephanitz. 11,000 dollars is too much money for a 4 month old puppy.


It's insane. Totally insane. A person can import a proven, titled, working line for that kind of money and know exactly what they are getting.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> @Sambazon you have two threads going right now that are both with regards to a breeder/trainer who is banned from this forum.
> While opinions are all fine and well I would hope that you are asking these questions of him as well.
> The man is a legitimate and respected trainer and it seems unfair to be potentially damaging his reputation when he cannot speak.
> I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong, just perhaps that you should be mindful. If he were not banned that would be different.


Well, to be fair, the two threads are different, one is about the breeder himself and the merits of buying an older trained puppy where he is named, one is strictly about the lineage of the dogs (and I didn't cite the breeder in this thread). In any case, I have spoken to the breeder in question but am doing due diligence. No breeder is going to tell me there is unstable aggression in their breeding female/studs.
I spoke to one breeder last week who sounded great and then next thing I know another person PM'd me this week when I mentioned her and in doing further confirmed research it seems said breeder has some major issues with some of her dogs.
That said, no one has said anything negative about the breeder we are talking about right now or his company, if anything all the feedback aside from price has been incredibly positive about him as a trainer, the uncertainty is in the background of the dogs he breeds in house. And to be clear, there has been no negativity in that respect either, just people are unfamiliar with his actual in-house dogs, hence why I thought it would be fair enough to start a different thread simply on lineage to see what some experts could glean and not cite said breeder's name.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Unfortunately, there is a large gap in the pedigree with unknown dogs. The combination of dogs is more important than one single dog in the pedigree. You're best bet is to review the contract, meet the dogs, look up the HD/ED scores and discuss with the breeders.

And keep in mind that people can be just as unjustly biased AGAINST a breeder, dog line, trainer as they can be unjustly biased towards. So please do your due diligence when you get PM's to weed out the truth from the malice and ignorance. 

I'm actually kind of stumped on why you are going to Canada when there are good breeders and trainers here in the States.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Unfortunately, there is a large gap in the pedigree with unknown dogs. The combination of dogs is more important than one single dog in the pedigree. You're best bet is to review the contract, meet the dogs, look up the HD/ED scores and discuss with the breeders.
> 
> And keep in mind that people can be just as unjustly biased AGAINST a breeder, dog line, trainer as they can be unjustly biased towards. So please do your due diligence when you get PM's to weed out the truth from the malice and ignorance.
> 
> I'm actually kind of stumped on why you are going to Canada when there are good breeders and trainers here in the States.


Well the simple answer to that is, because all the recommendations have largely been Canadian . In terms of PPD though, I haven't liked most of the USA PPD companies I have spoken with. This particular trainer was the first one that I somewhat liked.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sambazon said:


> Well the simple answer to that is, because all the recommendations have largely been Canadian . In terms of PPD though, I haven't liked most of the USA PPD companies I have spoken with. This particular trainer was the first one that I somewhat liked.


Trust is important


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I was not saying anyone had said anything, simply that I felt these questions should be put to him personally. I absolutely agree that other opinions and input are beneficial.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Haz doesn’t come to this forum anymore. His actual profile here isn’t banned though.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Bearshandler said:


> Haz doesn’t come to this forum anymore. His actual profile here isn’t banned though.


That's interesting. It was banned as of last week, I was looking at some old posts. Good to know he could come back though.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Not banned, no ban history, just not active in a while.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

...and don't be afraid to look at the actual dog. If this is the same Onyx, I've seen worse:


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## Tikkie (Apr 10, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> Absent information on pedigreedatabase only means the person who put the dog in didn't fill out all the information. You should go back to the owner and ask for HD/ED information, DM information, any titles/training in the that line. I just don't think it's even fair to try to give an opinion with all the missing information.
> 
> The one thing I've seen consistent with Karn progeny is a bit of nerve and leaking in drive. But you also will see a ton of natural aggression. Now - that is a generalization without taking into account the rest of the pedigree. It only what I'm seeing in dogs that have him within 5 generations from different breeders.



Its very true though. And without that little bit of nerve we wouldn’t have the aggression. There is good nerve and bad nerve. I would not call any of them nervy but we have both seen the nerve and without it, they would not have the needed suspicion or aggression to be as exceptional as they are. People dont get that you have stable, all around solid dogs but you have to be careful as to how you use it.
Same with the Tom lines. Too much of it can turn into a bad thing quickly.


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## Sambazon (Dec 24, 2020)

Hi - to the experts on here, any thoughts on this lineage?









Froulund Eddie | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog


You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Froulund Eddie at working-dog.



en.working-dog.com













Xisi Venušina sopka | Dog profile - information and data – working-dog


You will find all relevant information, images, videos and a detailed pedigree for Xisi Venušina sopka at working-dog.



en.working-dog.com





Not too concerned about hips/DM, breeder says they are fine on both counts. More interested if any of the more knowledgeable on here see anything in terms of unstable aggression/temperament or weak nerves?

Thanks all!


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## EMH (Jul 28, 2014)

Tikkie said:


> Its very true though. And without that little bit of nerve we wouldn’t have the aggression. There is good nerve and bad nerve. I would not call any of them nervy but we have both seen the nerve and without it, they would not have the needed suspicion or aggression to be as exceptional as they are. People dont get that you have stable, all around solid dogs but you have to be careful as to how you use it.
> Same with the Tom lines. Too much of it can turn into a bad thing quickly.


Which Tom lines? Tom z PS or Tom van't Leefdaalhof?


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