# Only the Strong...nerved.



## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

As a devoted fan of the GSD, I am always interested in knowing the best specimens of the breed. In my opinion, nerve strength is one of the "sine qua non" of this breed, and so that is what this poll will focus on. Tell me which GSD, currently alive, do you think has the strongest nerves and please explain why you chose that dog.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are GSD all over the planet and I don't think anyone on this forum could answer your question and it actually mean anything.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Baillif said:


> There are GSD all over the planet and I don't think anyone on this forum could answer your question and it actually mean anything.


Your are probably right. Do you have any suggestions on how to phrase the statement better? I started this thread in hopes of having a discussion on nerve strength and identifying breed worthy dogs that have this quality. I purposely did not specify a particular type of line (e.g. show vs working) because I wanted a more inclusive discussion.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Identifying nerve strength comes through everyday life, training and trialing. Testing and putting dogs in various situations to see how they act/react. For some, a trial field tells them all they need to know, for others this means going further. No one can tell you what dogs in the world have the best nerve.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I've heard people say the best dog in the world is probably laying in someones back yard right now. In a sport context, something you can see, two current dogs I like are:
Kliff vom Floyd Haus

and

Boss vom Adlerschrei

People may not agree, but you don't travel anywhere, go into stadiums, and perform at this level without solid nerves.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

mycobraracr said:


> Identifying nerve strength comes through everyday life, training and trialing. Testing and putting dogs in various situations to see how they act/react. For some, a trial field tells them all they need to know, for others this means going further. No one can tell you what dogs in the world have the best nerve.


I agree with your statement. So may I ask you, of all the GSDs you have personally interacted with, is there a dog you feel has exceptionally strong nerves such that it should be known more to the GSD community? 

I purposely put this thread in the POLL section because I want people's subjective opinion. There is no right or wrong answer.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I've heard people say the best dog in the world is probably laying in someones back yard right now. In a sport context, something you can see, two current dogs I like are:
> Kliff vom Floyd Haus
> 
> and
> ...


I agree, some of the best dogs are unknown in public GSD community, but those are the dogs I want to find out about. I saw the video on Kliff at the FCI. Very strong protection. Will do some research on Boss. Thanks for giving your opinion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Every year the club I used to belong to, at their specialty, honored service dogs at a hero-dog ceramony, but I believe it is there that they also honor a non-service dog for a heroic feat. The idea being that the other dogs are trained for the service and perform well, but a dog that does something extraordinary without the training could be nominated for a reward as well. 

In Plymouth, Ohio, in Ashatbula, Ohio (not sure how many Plymoths, there may be. A GSD without training barked to alert the residents that there were trespassers. The robbers crashed through the door and the dog attacked. It was shot by both robbers but gave the owner enough time to get his gun, and at that point the robbers retreated. The dog was shot in the chest and in the muzzle, but he survived. I'd love to be able to say that was one I produced, but it wasn't. Just a very nice, strong-nerved dog, who did his job.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> Every year the club I used to belong to, at their specialty, honored service dogs at a hero-dog ceramony, but I believe it is there that they also honor a non-service dog for a heroic feat. The idea being that the other dogs are trained for the service and perform well, but a dog that does something extraordinary without the training could be nominated for a reward as well.
> 
> In Plymouth, Ohio, in Ashatbula, Ohio (not sure how many Plymoths, there may be. A GSD without training barked to alert the residents that there were trespassers. The robbers crashed through the door and the dog attacked. It was shot by both robbers but gave the owner enough time to get his gun, and at that point the robbers retreated. The dog was shot in the chest and in the muzzle, but he survived. I'd love to be able to say that was one I produced, but it wasn't. Just a very nice, strong-nerved dog, who did his job.


That is a very nice example of what a strong-nerved GSD is capable of. Do you know the name of the dog or its bloodlines?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> That is a very nice example of what a strong-nerved GSD is capable of. Do you know the name of the dog or its bloodlines?


No. Looking for the newspaper account, it must be too old.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

The responses so far are tilted toward the Sport Dog aspect, what about the GSD's that perform SAR work, Avalanche Dogs that fly in Helicopters and hang 60' or more below a helicopter?

Let alone Police and Military Dogs, GSD's used in the film industry, being on a film set is incredibly stressful for a dog..…and of course the nefarious Personal Protection Dogs.

_"Rin Tin Tin"_ does not exist, in fact the show dog Rin Tin Tin was at best…. a poor example of the breed, read the book.

A good dog is a good dog, Quality defined is - Fit for Use

Just my opinion, we all have one.

Kim


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I've heard people say the best dog in the world is probably laying in someones back yard right now.


Should be true, since I firmly believe that every dog should be with a human who believes it is the best dog in the world.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Pirates Lair said:


> The responses so far are tilted toward the Sport Dog aspect, what about the GSD's that perform SAR work, Avalanche Dogs that fly in Helicopters and hang 60' or more below a helicopter?
> 
> Let alone Police and Military Dogs, GSD's used in the film industry, being on a film set is incredibly stressful for a dog..…and of course the nefarious Personal Protection Dogs.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with you more. Many of the strongest-nerved GSDs are probably doing true work. Unfortunately, many in the GSD community including myself are unaware of these dogs. I would like to know these dogs, especially if they are breedworthy and are actually being bred. Do you have a particular dog in mind?

Take a look at this dog. I've never met this dog but I bet it has "rock-solid" nerves based on one of the pictures ( pun intended). 
https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2601916/Sund-Hund-Yang


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> Should be true, since I firmly believe that every dog should be with a human who believes it is the best dog in the world.


I'm going to disagree with you a little bit. I think every dog deserves to be treated like "the best dog in the world" but every owner should understand its dogs actual strengths and weaknesses in order to be fair to the dog and expect of the dog only what the dog is capable of.


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> I couldn't agree with you more. Many of the strongest-nerved GSDs are probably doing true work. Unfortunately, many in the GSD community including myself are unaware of these dogs. I would like to know these dogs, especially if they are breedworthy and are actually being bred. Do you have a particular dog in mind?
> 
> Take a look at this dog. I've never met this dog but I bet it has "rock-solid" nerves based on one of the pictures ( pun intended).
> https://www.working-dog.com/dogs-details/2601916/Sund-Hund-Yang


I'm not familiar with that dog, but he is a formidable looking specimen, and judging by his accomplishments a great example of the breed.


Kim


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> I'm going to disagree with you a little bit. I think every dog deserves to be treated like "the best dog in the world" but every owner should understand its dogs actual strengths and weaknesses in order to be fair to the dog and expect of the dog only what the dog is capable of.


And I can disagree with you, because what is best for me is not best for you. 

Sabi rose above breeding and background to become a true breed ambassador and a fabulous working dog and partner. She was known and loved by many throughout her life and truly a once in a lifetime dog. Standing over me as I knelt in an alley bleeding, she had no faults. Standing her ground, licking my tears, she had no weakness.
Dog, of unknown origin or breed, curled up beside a frightened young girl and stayed to keep watch and keep her warm in the shelter of an old shed through a frigid night. He was not hers and she was of no benefit to him. but he kept her safe. Stayed with her in the days to come and eased her loneliness. Best dog ever, again no fault or weakness to be had.
Stryker had no reason to trust and every reason to hate but defended a small girl from heinous predators and stayed near, ready to defend for months. If he had faults her innocent eyes could not see them. If he had weakness her small hands must have missed them.
Shadow has fought every odd and faced a life some would end with a wagging tail and laughing eyes. Humans should learn from her joyous nature and loving heart. Maybe she isn't the best for some, maybe they don't need her kind of Best. Maybe they don't deserve it. I am thankful to have her.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> And I can disagree with you, because what is best for me is not best for you.
> 
> Sabi rose above breeding and background to become a true breed ambassador and a fabulous working dog and partner. She was known and loved by many throughout her life and truly a once in a lifetime dog. Standing over me as I knelt in an alley bleeding, she had no faults. Standing her ground, licking my tears, she had no weakness.
> Dog, of unknown origin or breed, curled up beside a frightened young girl and stayed to keep watch and keep her warm in the shelter of an old shed through a frigid night. He was not hers and she was of no benefit to him. but he kept her safe. Stayed with her in the days to come and eased her loneliness. Best dog ever, again no fault or weakness to be had.
> ...


Thank you for sharing your personal experiences. Can't disagree with you there. You illustrate why we love this breed so much.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are individual dogs that are known or have great nerve strength, and there are lines that are known for consistently having and producing great nerve strength. The better breeders are well aware of this information or else their breeding program is based primarily on luck!


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> There are individual dogs that are known or have great nerve strength, and there are lines that are known for consistently having and producing great nerve strength. The better breeders are well aware of this information or else their breeding program is based primarily on luck!


I agree with you. So, would you be able to mention some of these individual dogs and lines? I think it is important that knowledge of these dogs and lines that produce strong nerves should be made public and discussed ad nauseam.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Pirates Lair said:


> Let alone Police and Military Dogs, GSD's used in the film industry, being on a film set is incredibly stressful for a dog..…
> 
> _"Rin Tin Tin"_ does not exist, in fact the show dog Rin Tin Tin was at best…. a poor example of the breed, read the book.
> 
> ...


Acutally, I HAVE read the book (Susan Orleans), and the original Rin Tin Tin was a pretty good example of the breed at that time. You have to remember he was found in a bombed-out kennel during World War I. His owner was never as happy with the dog he chose to replace him as he was with the original Rinty. The 1950's version of the dog was another story. He had washed out colour, and his conformation wasn't very good, either.

Here's the original, with his owner and trainer, Lee Duncan: If you take into account, he's wet from swimming in the ocean, he could nearly pass for a modern day working line dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> I agree with you. So, would you be able to mention some of these individual dogs and lines? I think it is important that knowledge of these dogs and lines that produce strong nerves should be made public and discussed ad nauseam.


One dog comes to mind with your description. Google Andy Maly Vah
Though, sadly he wasn't used much. But what he produced is proof that genetics were strong nerve, balanced. Thinking dogs.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

onyx'girl said:


> One dog comes to mind with your description. Google Andy Maly Vah
> Though, sadly he wasn't used much. But what he produced is proof that genetics were strong nerve, balanced. Thinking dogs.


I did some research on Andy Maly Vah including reading prior threads on this forum. Very nice dog. Was he prepotent in passing the nerve strength and balance on to his offsprings? Are there Andy progeny now that equal his nerve strength and balance? Is Andy a dog one would line breed on to retain the nerve strength?

Looking at his pedigree, which dogs would you say had the greatest influence in producing strong nerves? I noticed his sire line goes back to Ingo but through a son that is not as well known. Also, he is not line bred and he is a mix of DDR, Czech and old west german working lines(nothing wrong with that, just commenting). I do not know the old Czech/Slovak lines well, so I don't know how they factor in.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The nerve strength of Andy comes strongly through his dam, Nessie Ben ju, brother to Norbo Ben ju, who was known for nerve strength in particular!


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> The nerve strength of Andy comes strongly through his dam, Nessie Ben ju, brother to Norbo Ben ju, who was known for nerve strength in particular!


So have you found the nerve strength in Andy's progeny mainly passed on through his daughters and manifested back in his grandsons through his daughters (i.e Maternal Grandsire effect)?


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## Pirates Lair (Aug 9, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Acutally, I HAVE read the book (Susan Orleans), and the original Rin Tin Tin was a pretty good example of the breed at that time. You have to remember he was found in a bombed-out kennel during World War I. His owner was never as happy with the dog he chose to replace him as he was with the original Rinty. The 1950's version of the dog was another story. He had washed out colour, and his conformation wasn't very good, either.
> 
> Here's the original, with his owner and trainer, Lee Duncan: If you take into account, he's wet from swimming in the ocean, he could nearly pass for a modern day working line dog.



LOL, okay, maybe do some real research on Susan Orleans as well. The original _Rinty_ was what forum people like to refer to as a "_reactive dog_".

I'm done on this topic now. Have a good night. 

ps; I was not referring to Her Book


Kim


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

Also, looking at Pedigreedatabase, it looks like Andy Maly Vah did not have the impact on the breed that one would hope given his exceptional qualities. Is there an Andy-type dog alive now that we should be talking about?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay, Kim, thanks for the insight. I've only ever hear positive things about the original Rin Tin Tin.

My younger female has Norbo Ben Ju in her pedigree, on her father's side.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> Also, looking at Pedigreedatabase, it looks like Andy Maly Vah did not have the impact on the breed that one would hope given his exceptional qualities. Is there an Andy-type dog alive now that we should be talking about?


Most dogs in the states don't have much impact on the breed even when they are exceptional dogs. 

Jane's older male, Karlo, is an Andy son. Very solid nerved dog. Unfortunately, he is the only Andy kid I have ever seen.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The litter that Wildhaus bred with Andy as a sire was very good, IMO. Consistent, all dogs are of good nerve, and very biddable, yet the fight drive is evident in my male and I believe in the other male Gryffon. I'm sure the females had it as well, but only one really trained in IPO for titles. 
The only drawback(if it even is) was the size of the dogs produced, a tad over standard. The females rocked the agility course. Now at 8yrs old, most are retired from sport/competing.
If you look on the Wildhaus website, G litter, you can see what Andy and Della produced. I do believe there was Andy's influence in each dog. Though Della's genes showed as well. It was a good pedigree match, IMO. 
(Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)
None of the females ever whelped a litter, so no clue how it would have produced.
I did breed my Karlo with Hawke's Hunt lines, and the pups will be two in a couple of days. Most are in competitive obedience homes, a couple do SAR and one is a SD(still in training, but with his partner) and all are of good nerve and health.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

lhczth said:


> Most dogs in the states don't have much impact on the breed even when they are exceptional dogs.
> 
> And that is a shame because it is those exceptional dogs, especially ones with superb nerve strength, that should be impacting the breed.
> 
> Furthermore, dogs like Andy should be the rule and not the exception in our breed. Maybe, I am expecting too much.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

onyx'girl said:


> The litter that Wildhaus bred with Andy as a sire was very good, IMO. Consistent, all dogs are of good nerve, and very biddable, yet the fight drive is evident in my male and I believe in the other male Gryffon. I'm sure the females had it as well, but only one really trained in IPO for titles.
> The only drawback(if it even is) was the size of the dogs produced, a tad over standard. The females rocked the agility course. Now at 8yrs old, most are retired from sport/competing.
> If you look on the Wildhaus website, G litter, you can see what Andy and Della produced. I do believe there was Andy's influence in each dog. Though Della's genes showed as well. It was a good pedigree match, IMO.
> (Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)
> ...


Interesting that none of the females were bred. Did they go to non-breeding homes?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

GSDguy4EVER said:


> So have you found the nerve strength in Andy's progeny mainly passed on through his daughters and manifested back in his grandsons through his daughters (i.e Maternal Grandsire effect)?


The strength of Andy's nerves were the result of both dam lines( mother and sire) being very very strong. Notwithstanding the international knowledge of The N litter being known for nerve base....his sire's (Barry) dam/granddam; Aska and Gita were both Zvv3 females, which is an accomplishment in itself. So he had strong dam genetics on both sides.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> The litter that Wildhaus bred with Andy as a sire was very good, IMO. Consistent, all dogs are of good nerve, and very biddable, yet the fight drive is evident in my male and I believe in the other male Gryffon. I'm sure the females had it as well, but only one really trained in IPO for titles.
> The only drawback(if it even is) was the size of the dogs produced, a tad over standard. The females rocked the agility course. Now at 8yrs old, most are retired from sport/competing.
> If you look on the Wildhaus website, G litter, you can see what Andy and Della produced. I do believe there was Andy's influence in each dog. Though Della's genes showed as well. It was a good pedigree match, IMO.
> (Wildhaus Kennels G Litter)
> ...


One of the keys to the size passed by Andy comes from Gita Salrak through Aska Cega. Gita was 27 inches at shoulder, but was titled to Zvv3 and when bred to Grisha Schwarzen Milan, produced the B litter Cega that has six dogs that were IPO3 and two of which were national/world competitors. I owned a female that was linebred 3-3 on B litter Cega and she had bombproof nerves. 
I also had nine pups from Andy, and all had great health and rock solid nerves. I still see one in the next town over, and the largest male ( 27 inches) also became LE dog!
So Andy was definitely under utilized in U S, the sport people would never breed to him because he was Czech dog, of course the SL people wouldn't touch him, he was just a plain ole excellent German Shepherd in body, deed, and genetics.


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## GSDguy4EVER (Sep 9, 2017)

cliffson1 said:


> The strength of Andy's nerves were the result of both dam lines( mother and sire) being very very strong. Notwithstanding the international knowledge of The N litter being known for nerve base....his sire's (Barry) dam/granddam; Aska and Gita were both Zvv3 females, which is an accomplishment in itself. So he had strong dam genetics on both sides.


Strong dam genetics is key. Looking at Aska Cega's pedigree it is somewhat similar to many of todays Czech pedigrees in that the sire line goes back to a prominent West German stud while the dam line goes back to Czech lines. Also, in her case is it fair to say that her sire line is not a major contributing factor to her nerve strength?

With regards to current West German working lines and DDR lines, do you happen to know which dam lines are known for producing exceptionally strong nerves?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Though I am knowledgeable about West workinglines/DDR lines, it is much more complicated than just knowing quote strong female lines in both these types. Each dog has to be assessed on not only the complete dog, but on probable interactions of the genetics for the information to really have value. I have seen dogs with strong dam lines bred to totally wrong dogs( imo) that result in offspring not representative of the dam line. West dogs of today and DDR dogs are totally opposite ends of continuum in terms of prey drive these days. This interaction affects nerves also in terms of the perception of less knowledgeable as to strength of nerves.
This is why, there is no substitute for the experience part of pedigrees. In other words, you have to at minimum get out and see some of these lines work in trials or work to match meaning with terms used by knowledgeable people reading or assessing pedigrees. 
Understanding terms like leaking, capping, active aggression, nervy, soft, handler sensitive, handler hard, over the top, etc, can only be understood and properly utilized by folks with hands on experience or visual experience with mentor to see or do and then understand.
This is why you have so many people make ludicrous comments like workinglines mostly live in kennels, are too much for common sense dog owner, have too much aggression, etc by supposed experts most of whom have very very little dealings with workinglines....yet tens of thousands of workinglines are living in homes today, and their picture is the exception. The same holds true with naming traits pedigreewise of lines/dogs, this information is so easily distorted and passed on by folks not truly understanding what they are passing on, and thus leads people to be skeptical when they see dogs that don't represent what they read or what they perceive from internet or book.
I love your enthusiasm, and hope you are able to go out to trial, shows, training clubs and really learn about these traits, ( if you haven't already) and then we can share what we have learned that will help both of us improve this subject.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> One of the keys to the size passed by Andy comes from Gita Salrak through Aska Cega. Gita was 27 inches at shoulder, but was titled to Zvv3 and when bred to Grisha Schwarzen Milan, produced the B litter Cega that has six dogs that were IPO3 and two of which were national/world competitors. I owned a female that was linebred 3-3 on B litter Cega and she had bombproof nerves.
> I also had nine pups from Andy, and all had great health and rock solid nerves. I still see one in the next town over, and the largest male ( 27 inches) also became LE dog!
> So Andy was definitely under utilized in U S, the sport people would never breed to him because he was Czech dog, of course the SL people wouldn't touch him, he was just a plain ole excellent German Shepherd in body, deed, and genetics.


Friend of mine had a daughter of Barinja. We met because of our common interest in Grischa (her having a granddaughter and my having a great granddaughter plus another friend that had a daughter). That B litter was excellent. Barinja, unfortunately, died at around 9 years old when carrying her last litter from, I believe, an aneurysm.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The female I had was linebred 3-3 on Barinja/Bob....very nice dogs!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)




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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I had never noticed how much Karlo looks like him.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

This is first time I saw the complete anthology of Andy....though I have seen most of it in segments. I worked this dog on our home field, I bred to this dog, I saw this dog pass his PSA1 title on a day that no other dog passed that day.
BUT....the thing that impressed me the most about ANDY was in his prime( 5years), Melanie had a 5 year old daughter that Andy would literally babysit. He was so gentle with her even when she was throwing balls and tugs for him. I witnessed this myself!!! Besides he was a certified Therapy Dog!!! This is the type of dog I admire, I bred, and I consider the epitome of the breed. He could do ALL the things in the standard at a high level. He had incredible discernment just as a GS should and the COURAGE to use this discernment; tough when needed and gentle when called for. To me if as a breeder, this is not your blueprint for your breeding program,( from a temperament point of view), you are doing the breed a disservice.


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## RoninByDesign (Aug 11, 2017)

I have a (probably dumb) question. Is 'Nerve' synonymous or related to 'threshold' when speaking about temperament?


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