# Question on Genetic testing - Results bi-color - Looks black and tan



## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Hello everyone!

I did a DNA test on my female german shepherd. I was surprised by the results coming back for her coat color. I was expecting her to be as/as, as/at, or as/a. However, she came back as being at/at which would indicate that she is supposed to be genetically bi-color. She is 5 months old and I am well aware that she does not have her final coat color. I expect her to continue to lighten up and turn into a blanket back like her father or a proper saddle back like her mom. My girl being as/at would make sense since her grandfather on her father's side is a true bi-color with the tar heels and toe penciling. Her father is either as/at or as/a since the grandfather is for sure at/a. Her mother I am struggling with her being anything other than as/as. The statistical chance of her carrying bi-color is exceedingly low. Her closest bi-color ancestor being from the 1960s as far as I can tell. 

What is confusing me is that in no way does she look bi-color nor like she could gain the black back to be bi-color. I suspect that either the test results are incorrect, there is a modifying gene in the mix changing how the bi-color presents, or I am misunderstanding what at/at can look like in a phenotype. 

Please help me understand what is going on here! I'm so entirely confused!

Here is a link to her pedigree: 
Cinder Lilly vom Haus Radtke

Here is a link to her results from the testing:
https://os.genoscoper.com/crm/index.html#os/animals/BR09864/pass


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ummm...I would send that back in to be retested.

I would have expected to see either as/at or as/as. I don't see any black in her pedigree?


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I'm probably not very well informed about this so I'll further the question surrounding genetic bi-colors. I understood that both 'at/at' and 'at/a' would be labeled 'bi-color'. OP, yours looks back and tan with a good amount of tan on the face. My pup's mom is an 'at/a' yet appears blanket back with light tan on the face. I uploaded the mom's picture below. 

Do some 'at/a' and 'at/at' still appear black and tan even if they are genetically bi-color?

Mother: Rogue Vom Wildhaus, Rogue Vom Wildhaus
genetic link: https://os.genoscoper.com/crm/index.html#os/animals/BR02929/pass/summary


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What company did these tests?

Rogue is a blanket back.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Ummm...I would send that back in to be retested.
> 
> I would have expected to see either as/at or as/as. I don't see any black in her pedigree?



Her grandfather Klaus has sired black pups so I know that my pups father has a chance of carrying for it. 
I agree completely with your expectation of as/at or as/as. 

I'm definitely considering retesting.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> What company did these tests?
> 
> Rogue is a blanket back.


It looks like their tests and my tests were done by the same company. They are optimal-selection through Wisdom Health. It is their product for breeders. It offers a useful tool to send in the results directly to the OFA and covers the most genetic tests for German Shephereds in one place, which is why I choose this product. 

Where their normal product includes breed identification.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Do some 'at/a' and 'at/at' still appear black and tan even if they are genetically bi-color?


This is what I'm basically getting at. I do not know the answer to this. The dog you linked certainly looks like my pups father's pattern only he is long coated and they look more grey.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Rogue is a blanket back.


I agree that Rogue is blanket back, which is why I question her 'at/a' genetic marker for bi-color.



JRadtke said:


> This is what I'm basically getting at. I do not know the answer to this. The dog you linked certainly looks like my pups father's pattern only he is long coated and they look more grey.


Yep. Looks like we have the same question. I've heard of the term 'melanistic' but I'm not exactly sure how it ties into this question.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JRadtke said:


> It looks like their tests and my tests were done by the same company. They are optimal-selection through Wisdom Health. It is their product for breeders. It offers a useful tool to send in the results directly to the OFA and covers the most genetic tests for German Shephereds in one place, which is why I choose this product.
> 
> Where their normal product includes breed identification.


I would like to see the results thru Embark. I wonder if in Wisdom Health's database they don't recognize "as" only "at" as all bi-colors are black/tan with extended black. 

There used to be a great Facebook page, German Shepherd Breeders, that you could have asked these questions on but since PETA now is a stockholder, they are going after any page that has ads for puppies. Val did move it to MeWe but it's not very active. You could try to post there though. There were a couple of geneticists on that page.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Yep. Looks like we have the same question. I've heard of the term 'melanistic' but I'm not exactly sure how it ties into this question.


I was under the impression that 'melanistic' refers more to the mask on the face.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> I would like to see the results thru Embark. I wonder if in Wisdom Health's database they don't recognize "as" only "at" as all bi-colors are black/tan with extended black.
> 
> There used to be a great Facebook page, German Shepherd Breeders, that you could have asked these questions on but since PETA now is a stockholder, they are going after any page that has ads for puppies. Val did move it to MeWe but it's not very active. You could try to post there though. There were a couple of geneticists on that page.


That's cool to know! I actually have a MeWe account for the reason. I just haven't done anything with it. I wanted to follow my breeder and know what was up with my puppies family. I'll see if I can't reach out there too. 

I think it's certainly possible that Wisdom Health has limitations that I don't know about. As it stands I plan to call them when they are during regular business hours.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

JRadtke said:


> I was under the impression that 'melanistic' refers more to the mask on the face.


My girl is melanistic black/tan blanket. Melanistic just means heavy black.

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/critique-my-dog/756143-faren-10-months.html


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I have heard through various FB pages (that like Jax08 said are dropping like flies due to PETA) that Wisdom is known to make some real wonky mistakes.


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

CometDog said:


> I have heard through various FB pages (that like Jax08 said are dropping like flies due to PETA) that Wisdom is known to make some real wonky mistakes.


I believe I have this solved!!!!!! 

With some help from other forums that I've asked, it turns out that both Embark and Wisdom report both black and tan(as) and bi-color(at) as being at. 

The saddle back gene is under the RALY gene and not taken into consideration where it states the A Locus results.

So my girl is in fact shown in the report to be a saddle back pattern or 'as' genetically. The only question that I have left is if she is as/at or as/as since that part of the test is unclear to me!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Good job digging


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## JRadtke (Sep 9, 2019)

CeraDean said:


> Good job digging


Boy did it take a lot of asking around to sort it out! 

It looks like Rogue says the same in the report as it does for my pup. 

I finally got a hold of someone on facebook who had done DNA testing before and could explain it. I easily had over 100+ messages back and forth with different people telling me what I already knew! Turns out I was reading the report wrong!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

If you are on FB then I would join this group and ask on there.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/295684027143185/


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