# Would You Issue a Refund?



## No228 (Jan 2, 2014)

I am hoping some of the breeders will weigh in on this...

My husband and I purchased a GSD from a reputable breeder after quite a bit of research and lurking around this site. I've seen very respectable comments regarding this breeder and breeding program here and elsewhere, and the 13 week old pup we brought home was amazing and everything we'd expected. 

We had the pup for less than 72 hours.... within the first day, both my husband and my son began to exhibit signs of being allergic (my husband later admitted that he had felt the same symptoms when we had visited the breeder several weeks earlier, but at the time he thought he was coming down with a cold). My husband contacted a good friend of ours who works for a large local medical center - as a favor he did a quick skin test to be certain, and it was positive. We had no reason to believe he was allergic prior to this (we also had no reason to believe that he was allergic to Penicillin, as he'd taken it multiple times in his life, until the day he had a severe anaphylactic reaction to that and landed in the ER - no idea if the two are related!). 

After a long and heart-wrenching discussion, we decided we could not keep the puppy and subject our son to a youth of allergies or allergy medication. I immediately contacted the breeder, with the end result being that I returned the pup to the breeder the following day. 

I did not discuss nor request any type of refund upon returning the puppy as it was upsetting enough to begin with, however, I did contact the breeder afterword and ask if considerations for either a full or partial refund would be made given that we tried to do the right thing and return the puppy as quickly as possible. 

I was told that a refund is not possible, and per the terms of the contract, which we were never asked to sign, we are not owed a refund. My husband and I are reasonable people and we understand that finding suitable homes for puppies is a time consuming process, however, it's difficult not to feel as if we were "taken" assuming the puppy was re-homed, especially if it happened quickly. 

Do you feel we should pursue this further? I am NOT suggesting that I intend to take legal action in any way - I have simply not yet responded to the breeder's original response, and I'd like to know if other breeders would consider a refund under these circumstances. 

Thank you in advance.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

imho, they do not owe you a refund. this always irks me though, as in most breeder contracts, you are obligated to return the puppy to the breeder, who will most likely resell said pup, but i am not a breeder and i am sure some breeders will respond.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Wow, tough one. Not a breeder, so not really the response you were asking for, but I will give it anyway. 

I think the nice and respectable thing would be to issue you a partial refund. You returned the puppy when it was still young, young enough to rehome quickly. 

But it would be a generosity on the breeders part. The breeder fulfilled their end of the bargain. You got a lovely healthy puppy. It's your situation that keeps you from keeping the puppy. Not the breeders fault. So I see their side as well. I would not fault them for not refunding money. But I do think it would be a nice gesture. 

Sorry about the turn of events it must be tough on you. 


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## BellaLuna (Jan 27, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Wow, tough one. Not a breeder, so not really the response you were asking for, but I will give it anyway.
> 
> I think the nice and respectable thing would be to issue you a partial refund. You returned the puppy when it was still young, young enough to rehome quickly.
> 
> ...


Not a breeder but I 100% agree with this, my thoughts exactly...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I have been in this situation and in each instance have taken the dog back and given 100% refund.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think you did the right thing. The breeder may not "owe" you a refund, but I don't see how any respectable person would not do it. There is nothing wrong with the puppy and you had it less than a week. The breeder can sell it to someone else. Also, you were nice enough to *give* the puppy back. If it were me and had I known the breeder would not be willing to issue a refund (even waiting until re-selling the puppy), I would have used a standard "first right of refusal" and offered the puppy to the breeder to BUY back. That is typically how most dog purchase agreements work. You are not obligated to GIVE a dog back even if a breeder makes it sound that way, you are usually obligated to offer the breeder the chance to "get" (ie, purchase) the dog back before selling it to someone else.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

carmspack said:


> I have been in this situation and in each instance have taken the dog back and given 100% refund.


:thumbup: 
Integrity and ethic goes a long way.


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## Wodinaz (Dec 19, 2013)

carmspack said:


> I have been in this situation and in each instance have taken the dog back and given 100% refund.


We've also done this. Ours was a 30 day written guarantee. Wether it's an allergy issue, puppy not settling in the home, or not fitting with other pets. Rather have the pup back and try again then someone taking it to a shelter.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with, the respectable thing to do would be to give you a refund. 

You had the puppy less than 72 hours, it must have been heartbreaking for you to return it, especially for your son

I'm not a breeder, but I would have refunded your money, contract or no contract. 

I would have felt like a thief if I had kept your money and turned around and sold the puppy making double off it 

Can you pm me the name of the breeder? Someone I would scratch off my list...


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

it concerns me that you were never asked to sign the contract. When I purchased my dog we had to have the contract signed before we were allowed to take the puppy, but she doesn't owe you, I agree at least a partial refund is totally reasonable though


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

get rid of your husband- problem solved!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

eww I missed the part that you never signed a contract...I think I might bring up the fact to the breeder that you never 'signed' a contract because you weren't asked to. 

So in reality, there is no written contract

You could also say, ok give me the puppy back and you sell it..?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm a breeder, and I give two weeks, 100% money back refund for any reason or no reason. After two weeks, I do not refund cash. 

The breeder should do what is right. If the breeder paid for shipment, then I would refund that. But beyond that, the breeder should give you your money back.


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## vom Eisenherz (Feb 13, 2012)

Good Lord. You had the puppy a few days and they didn't OFFER IMMEDIATELY to refund you if you brought the pup back? 

As a breeder, I'd be thrilled you didn't dump him on craigslist and would give your money back in a heartbeat, or at the very least when I resold the pup.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Might be a good idea to give you a refund. Goodwill is important.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Wow. This is disappointing to hear. There's always two sides. Wonder how they justify keeping the money after the puppy was returned a few days later?

If said breeder is reading this thread I hope you reconsider.


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## sarah1366 (Nov 3, 2013)

Most respectable breeders would issue refund but in same instance if you didnt explain about the unforseen circumstances of your son's unknown allergy then they may feel pup was returned without good reason if was me would pursue it but would also explain why pup had to be returned and wasn't fault of pup or you because u didn't sign contract therefore contract isn't legally binding but good luck and yes pursue don't give in too easily otherwise they have had money for this pup twice over once when you bought pup and again when resold 

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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You did not sign a contract - most breeders have pretty similar terms...you have x number of days to return a puppy....

IMO, as this was unforeseen, you should get at least 75% refund, if not 100%.....you could have just resold the pup and recouped your money...but did the morally/ethically correct thing by returning the puppy....I would much rather get a pup back in this situation than have the buyer place the puppy who knows where.

Lee


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## Thorny (Nov 4, 2012)

If I were you, I'd ask the breeder what their intentions are with the puppy. If it is to sell it, then I'd ask for 75% of the proceeds of that sale (or whatever % you are comfortable with). If the breeder says no, I'd ask for the puppy back and sell it yourself. 

If the breeder is well thought of, as you indicated earlier, I bet you can sell the puppy quickly with the help of folks on this board.

In the mean time, keep the pup crated in one room of your house and contain the allergens there. Start regular training and do what you can to move that pup forward until you are able to sell it.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

My contracts stated that within 1 week I would take the puppy back for whatever reason(as long as puppy was not injured while in new persons care and they didn't want to pay vet bills, etc) and issue a full refund.
If it was after that time, then I would take puppy back and as soon as puppy was sold, the original buyer received their money back then or however much I got for puppy's second home.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

ask for the pup back. i mean you did pay full price for him. in the end it is ultimately your fault but not giving someone their money back because they owned a pup for less than a week is shady. 

depending on the breeder it might be hard for them to get another buyer for the pup but taking your money and then selling the pup again is stealing.


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## No228 (Jan 2, 2014)

Thank you all VERY much for your insight. I truly appreciate it.

Unfortunately, this has been going on several months. My original e-mail requesting a full or partial refund was sent shortly after the dog was returned (this alone was quite expensive in terms of gas and time, as it was ~1000 miles of driving in one day), however, after not receiving a response for several weeks, I forwarded the original e-mail to the breeder again and noted that I had originally sent it almost a month earlier and had not yet heard back (my fault for not being more on top of this - I totally accept that). 

Over a month had passed by the time I received a response stating that "...I do not offer refunds, as was listed in the contract. I am not in a position to offer money back as pretty much whatever comes in, goes back out for rent, feed, heat, and vet care for the dogs... " 

In the response I received, the breeder also noted that on the day I returned the puppy, the puppy's eyes were completely red/bloodshot, stated pictures were taken of the puppies eyes, and noted that, among other things (such as bathing him, which we did not do in the less than 2 days we had him in our home) it could be due to him straining against the leash. We do not have a fenced in yard - which the breeder was aware of and actually stated was "preferred" (that way the puppy is not "left outside" for long periods of time to fend for itself) - therefore, when I took the puppy out it was ALWAYS on a leash. My neighbor has two large mixed breeds, and they were often out in her fenced yard. The puppy did get excited and strained on the leash EVERY time, anxious to see the other dogs. I was certainly very upset to hear that this had happened, but ultimately the breeder stated that it had cleared up within a week and there weren't any other signs of problem or stress. 

At the time I received the reply, it didn't sound as if the puppy had been re-homed, and the breeder's website hasn't been updated in months. 

Again, thank you all so much for your insight. I just wish I had asked MUCH earlier!!!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

it's in your contract no refund then it's no refund. i understand the breeder's side. i may not like it but i understand it.

has your family members been around any other dogs? was there an
allergic reaction?

you have a contract but you never signed it. the breeder didn't
ask you to sign the contract?

you get a pup, your family members become allergic. they didn't
know they were allergic to dogs before you brought the pup?
that seems sketchy.

i think there's more to story than you bought a pup then an allergic
reaction developed.

a puppy strained so hard against the leash untill it's eyes became
blood shot, really?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

As I stated there's always two sides. This last post had more telling information than the first. The breeder felt the pup came back in a different condition than it left in their care. I don't know....


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

there's always 3 sides. the OP's side, the breeder's side
and what really happened.



Courtney said:


> >>>>>As I stated there's always two sides.<<<<<
> 
> This last post had more telling information than the first. The breeder felt the pup came back in a different condition than it left in their care. I don't know....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

believe it or not I had a dog that I sent out as a pup that was returned because of size .
not so much the dogs size , but how the owner and the dog looked together .
got lots of very positive feed back regarding the dogs stable temperament and drive .
then out of the blue when the dog is close to two years I get a call and the guy says he isn't happy with the dog because he didn't grow as big as he expected and wanted . He said he is a big man , one of these man and a half and he feels silly like walking a poodle silly because of it . Asks if I want him to sell the dog or do I want the dog back. (which has additional air transport charges to bring the dog "home"). Obviously the guy no longer wants the dog . I felt he would take the easy solution , not screening , or really caring to place the dog in the best interest of the dog . Who knows where he could end up -- 
Without hesitation I said send him home. Gave full refund and paid all expenses . 100%

dog came back in good condition . thanks for that . 25 inch male .

dog was re-homed to a person who had dogs from me previously .
a person who is an animal wrangler for movies and other media .

loved the dog . he did some scenes as a "wolf" and other walk ons in shows .


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Doggiedad. The allergy thing. Yes. You may be around dogs but then when a puppy is licking you around the face etc. you discover the allergy which you had never noticed before. And for some it can escalate.

It is true - when you only get one side of the story you don't hear the other side, but I think the OP was simply asking what other folks would do given the situation and not planning legal action. I am just glad they figured it out early on. The bloodshot eye thing concerns me though as I have never seen that. I actually don't think I have had a 13 week old pup really pulling hard either though. Or a breeder NOT preferring a fenced yard. To me that is a second layer of safety.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as for allergies . I had a woman buy a dog from me who had grown up as a child with one of my dogs in her family home.
she adored the dog and wanted her own kids to experience this special connection .
she came several times . sat for hours in my living room with pups piling over her . that litter was not good timing for her .
just over a year later she contacts again and is ready for a pup.

invited to come to visit any time after the pups are over 5 weeks. 
guests are never rushed , so they can come as often and stay as long as they want . 
never a problem.
choose a pup .
send pictures of pup and the kids . pup on bed getting nails painted. right in the thick of things.
but as time went on the lady began to have congestion , allergic response , which she was really puzzled about. 
got tested . dog allergy . 
tried everything in her house cleaning . then one time her throat closed up and she could barely breathe.
bring the dog back -- full refund.

these are the things that people who come on to the forum asking about being a breeder don't even think about . You owe it to the dogs .


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would buy the puppy back. If I was very short of money then the OP might have to wait for a refund until I resold the puppy.


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## No228 (Jan 2, 2014)

Yes, I intentionally left out the bit about the red/bloodshot eyes in my original post because I was hoping for un-biased responses, and I thank you for those. I apologize if anyone feels that was deceptive of me. 

Here is my point: I returned the puppy in the condition in which it was received, which was 100% healthy, adorable, and happy. Had I noticed something as concerning as red/bloodshot eyes, I would have contacted both the breeder and a vet immediately. I was on good terms with the breeder, and upon returning the puppy, spent close to an hour there talking about the puppy and various other things. At no point did the breeder inspect the puppy in front of me, and I never heard anything about the red/bloodshot eyes until AFTER I asked for a refund (please keep in mind it was well over a month until I received a response to my original email). I have no way of knowing what happened to the puppy in that period of time. Had this been noted when I returned the puppy and pictures taken in my presence, I would have taken full responsibility and been entirely too ashamed to even ask for a refund in the first place. Personally, I'm confused as to why the breeder didn't contact me immediately upon noticing that something was wrong to try to determine the cause. 

Regarding allergies, yes, per the allergist my husband saw after his reaction to Penicillin, it is absolutely possible to develop allergies later in life. He literally almost died on our kitchen floor from a severe reaction to the Penicillin, which he'd taken several times in his life prior to that incident (PSA - NEVER take a new medication when you're alone, please! If I hadn't been there to call 911, he wouldn't have made it... It happened THAT fast). We only have two family members with dogs - one is a Cavashon (a Cavalier King Charles/Bichon mix), the other is a Lhasa Apso. Both "hypoallergenic" breeds, and we live over 300 miles from our family, so we are rarely around them. Our neighbors with the two dogs I mentioned in my earlier post are a bit reclusive, and we've never even interacted with their dogs - they do not walk them, they only let them out in the fenced yard. Other than that, most of our friends live in small apartments in the city, and I honestly can't name one that has a dog. So I'm sorry to say that we truly didn't know and certainly didn't expect this situation to occur. 

Finally, I would like the opportunity to resolve this situation with the breeder before I PM anyone. I do understand where this could create a financial hardship for the breeder, and I am doing my best to do what is morally right - I do believe the dog itself was exceptionally well-bred, and I prefer not to give anyone a bad name until things are fully resolved. In the meantime, all I can advise is to carefully discuss "Return Policies" with breeders you may be considering! I WILL give you my word that you will hear back from me when things have been finalized, one way or another. 

Thanks again to everyone who took the time to reply!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think your being very nice about it all 

I guess the things I find disturbing is, the breeder says 'per the contract', but you don't have/didn't SIGN a contract.../ you returned the dog within 72 hours, drove over 1000 miles??? YIKES!..and their lack of communication with you after the fact.

I seriously doubt the eye thing, was from 'pulling' on it's leash..sounds like just something to be brought up after the fact,,as for financial hardship? Well I know most breeders aren't millionaires, but there is no reason to 'avoid' the topic with you, and the 'right' thing to do would be to refund you some of the money..

I know there are always 3 sides to a story, this just doesn't sit well with me Hope you can get some type of resolution


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

did you have good communications with the breeder BEFORE driving out the 1,000 miles?
how did you present your problem ? 
you could have found out about a refund , negotiated on when you might or if you might receive one . I think it is totally unfair to not get the refund but that is up to whatever agreement you and that breeder had .


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

The very least the breeder can do is issue to you what they are able to sell the puppy for minus expenses the puppy incurs. That could mean you have to wait and could also mean they keep the puppy and don't sell. It would at least be a good will gesture. It would not be right for the breeder to sell the puppy twice and keep all monies.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

So the OP drove a 1000 miles to return a puppy to the breeder and left without even discussing the refund?


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## GSDlover143 (Nov 8, 2013)

volcano said:


> get rid of your husband- problem solved!


This made me lol 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are two sides to every story, yes. But, the dog was returned within 72 hours. If some people want to give a 100% refund after the dog is full grown, well bully for them. I don't think anyone should expect that from a breeder. Certainly not for something like, the dog didn't grow big enough for over-sized me. If the dog was a dwarf or under the standard, let's talk.

Be that as it may be, this pup was 3 days -- many places have a law stating that you have so many hours for ANY major purchase, including puppies. The OP acted the way we would hope people on this site would act, she returned the dog to the breeder, and my guess is that the dog was in good shape when she returned it. 

I am pretty surprised that the breeder didn't offer something. Fine, I'm broke too, but a guy bought a dog from me for his kid and the kid wanted a dachsund. After 11 days, he told me he wanted to bring her back because she was chasing his cats and bit one. We are talking a nine week old puppy. I said, bring her back. I told him I had to get a duplicate litter certificate and would send him a check after I received it. This was true, but also, I wanted to make sure his check cleared, and the time for them to stop payment or whatever would be up. I had no reason to doubt this guy, but I didn't know him either. He told me to keep $100 for my trouble, which was nice. I had spent some gas on the deal, and the duplicate certificate. I would have refunded the whole amount though. 

Since I give people 2 weeks, I usually do not spend the money that comes in on a puppy until I feel relatively confident they are keeping the puppy -- 2 weeks, minimum. 

Yes, the money we get for the puppies goes to the vet and for food and for other needs that they have. Certainly. But a person who doesn't have the puppy after 72 hours, that person should not have paid for something they don't have. It's despicable. 

It costs the breeder a duplicate litter certificate, not the cost of a puppy.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> If some people want to give a 100% refund after the dog is full grown, well bully for them. I don't think anyone should expect that from a breeder. Certainly not for something like, the dog didn't grow big enough for over-sized me. If the dog was a dwarf or under the standard, let's talk.


This is what defines an extraordinary and extremely responsible breeder from a byb. One who will do everything possible to keep their puppies out of a shelter or crap home. It's not supposed to be ALL about the money. 

It is also why I was instantly impressed by Carmen...she is an extraordinary person.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> This is what defines an extraordinary and extremely responsible breeder from a byb. One who will do everything possible to keep their puppies out of a shelter or crap home. It's not supposed to be ALL about the money.
> 
> It is also why I was instantly impressed by Carmen...she is an extraordinary person.


A good breeder takes their dogs back at any point in their lives when they need a home. 

Refunding the owner of said dog is a personal decision that a breeder made. There are probably as many reasons to do that that are less than altruistic than there are that are.

And I wouldn't be proud about being instantly impressed with someone because of something they said of themselves on the internet.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

selzer said:


> And I wouldn't be proud about being instantly impressed with someone because of something they said of themselves on the internet.


Saphire is impressed with Carmen because she sees her all the time and knows her personally.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sunflowers>was going to fix your 'does' to knows but you beat me to it, I was laughing my butt off,,sorry to go OT


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I was instantly impressed when I met Carmen. I continue to be impressed when I read her posts here. I was impressed everytime she came to watch Gus' training sessions. I cannot say enough about the spectacular person this woman is. Her knowledge baffles me.
I am not impressed with breeders who don't title and prove their dogs prior to breeding and who would not do everything possible to keep their puppies out of harms way...even if it meant buying an adult back. 
I also know there are more crappy breeders than there are good. Identifying the good from bad is NOT always an easy task especially on a forum. It is very easy for a less than desirable breeder to look and sound good from behind a computer screen.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> sunflowers>was going to fix your 'does' to knows but you beat me to it, I was laughing my butt off,,sorry to go OT


Saw that, huh? Shoot...darned Siri!

No matter how quick you are, someone is faster LOL


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sun> you were quick too it was funny


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

I read one contract where if you return a dog they will give you a refund minus $300 of what they resell it for. That seems fair.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I was instantly impressed when I met Carmen. I continue to be impressed when I read her posts here. I was impressed everytime she came to watch Gus' training sessions. I cannot say enough about the spectacular person this woman is. Her knowledge baffles me.
> I am not impressed with breeders who don't title and prove their dogs prior to breeding and who would not do everything possible to keep their puppies out of harms way...even if it meant buying an adult back.
> I also know there are more crappy breeders than there are good. Identifying the good from bad is NOT always an easy task especially on a forum. It is very easy for a less than desirable breeder to look and sound good from behind a computer screen.



:toasting: Saphire, we really need to go have a beer together sometime!! ;-)


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Saphire said:


> ...
> I also know there are more crappy breeders than there are good. Identifying the good from bad is NOT always an easy task especially on a forum. It is very easy for a less than desirable breeder to look and sound good from behind a computer screen.


And some manage to look and sound good face-to-face...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Saphire said:


> I was instantly impressed when I met Carmen. I continue to be impressed when I read her posts here. I was impressed everytime she came to watch Gus' training sessions. I cannot say enough about the spectacular person this woman is. Her knowledge baffles me.
> I am not impressed with breeders who don't title and prove their dogs prior to breeding and who would not do everything possible to keep their puppies out of harms way...even if it meant buying an adult back.
> I also know there are more crappy breeders than there are good. Identifying the good from bad is NOT always an easy task especially on a forum. It is very easy for a less than desirable breeder to look and sound good from behind a computer screen.


That's a good reason to be impressed with someone. It is very true that people can be very different from what they post on a internet forum, that was my point. The OP says that this breeder is on this forum and thought highly of too. I think we should all really consider carefully who we individually endorse. Someone can get all the titles in the world, but if they won't refund a puppy after 72 hours how can they be ethical?


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## No228 (Jan 2, 2014)

Actually, I've only ever seen one post in these forums from the breeder I'm referring to. I did, however, say that I've seen recommendations from others in the forums regarding this breeder and had PM'd some regarding their thoughts and nothing but good things were said.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Can I ask if the people that gave recommendations 'have' the breeders dogs? Or where they just 'recomendations'? Just curious. 

There are some breeders that when things go good, they are all over it, and then there are the same, when things go bad they just ignore/write you off, they don't want to hear it or deal with it.. 

Certainly that is just a general statement, and to add, there are MANY really good breeders out there that will stand behind their dogs to the death.

Sometimes I read posts like this and just shake my head, and just don't understand


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## No228 (Jan 2, 2014)

@Diane - PM'd you.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Can I ask if the people that gave recommendations 'have' the breeders dogs? Or where they just 'recomendations'? Just curious.


 I was curious about that too...

I wish you the best of luck and hopefully you'll be able to re-coup some money..


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

We had this exact same situation happen with a male pup in our M litter. We did refund the purchase price of the puppy once he was returned, though the customer was responsible for the shipping costs to return the puppy. I felt it was the right thing to do and really no big deal on our end as we were able to sell the puppy to someone else for the same puppy price. Sure, it was inconvenient and we did incur some minor costs, but nothing significant and nothing close to the heartbreak that the owner suffered when he realized he couldn't keep the puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It would be so much easier if breeders who produced problems, or who treated their buyers with complete lack of ethics, always produced problems and always acted unethically. The thing is, probably lots of people have had perfectly nice puppies from the breeder -- there is no argument on that by the op, the pup was everything they wanted. And their transactions, if they actually bought puppies and were not just spouting advice about where to buy a pup, their transactions probably went perfectly smoothly. Because they didn't ask for their money back. 

Everyone was indeed happy. They gave good recommendations. And most of the time, that will be the case. A crappy breeders is not going to have 98 out of 100 people dissatisfied. 

It is a lesson on the giving and the taking of recommendations. Definitely we want to hear from people who have purchased from someone, the good and the bad. But even if several people have a positive experience, it really doesn't mean that everything will go well. 

I guess you have to listen to other people's experience/recommendations and weigh it as one of the pieces of the puzzle.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

No228 said:


> Actually, I've only ever seen one post in these forums from the breeder I'm referring to. I did, however, say that I've seen recommendations from others in the forums regarding this breeder and had PM'd some regarding their thoughts and nothing but good things were said.


 
Not a breeder here. So non breeder opinion here.

First of all, when asking about this breeder, you can't cover every situation on a forum. This is something that probably should have been covered and discussed before buying the dog between you and the breeder. 

I also think a responsible breeder should refund 100% of the money for someone having a medical condition due to the dog they sold. There is a big difference from someone that just bit off more than they could chew or just doesn't want the dog now, excuse and someone who is having a medical situation.


Is there a way you could have resold the dog through the breeder? I mean, if there is no signed contract, and they sell the dog again, that just seems kind of underhanded. To me you should be intitled to some refund or sale price if the dog is resold. 

Just for what it's worth. I also have allergies to animals. They get pretty bad sometimes. I treat mine with allergy shots every six months and sometimes pill medication on top of that. So I understand what they are going through with those allergies. It's no fun. I also understand letting go of your pup was not an easy decision. That had to be rough.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

selzer said:


> It would be so much easier if breeders who produced problems, or who treated their buyers with complete lack of ethics, always produced problems and always acted unethically. The thing is, probably lots of people have had perfectly nice puppies from the breeder -- there is no argument on that by the op, the pup was everything they wanted. And their transactions, if they actually bought puppies and were not just spouting advice about where to buy a pup, their transactions probably went perfectly smoothly. Because they didn't ask for their money back.
> 
> Everyone was indeed happy. They gave good recommendations. And most of the time, that will be the case. A crappy breeders is not going to have 98 out of 100 people dissatisfied.
> 
> ...


 
This is very true^^^^

This could be a very good learning thread in what buyers should discuss at the time of buying the dog. Refunds should be a major point of emphasis in those discussions at the time of sale. That way there is no gray area.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think the OP did the right thing returning the pup to the breeder-the breeder should refund the money especially based on the reason


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am not a breeder but a trainer and in your case I would have refunded the full amount if you showed written proof from the allergist. It reminded me of a lady in my class who dropped out and asked her money back I asked her why she decided to drop out and she said that her Chihuahua got sick from the clicker. I told her to get a written statement from the vet that the dog did indeed get sick from the clicker in which case I would have refunded her her money. Of course she couldn't get that statement so I did not refund her the money.
I think it was unethical and possibly damaging to your breeder's reputation to let you down.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I have refunded the full purchase price when someone had the pup for about a month and then said his son was allergic. Have to admit i did wonder how much the allergies were related to all the white carpet I had seen in the pics but I am sometimes a suspicious person.

I try and be guided by what I think is the best thing for the dog involved and block out everything else...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Betty said:


> I have refunded the full purchase price when someone had the pup for about a month and then said his son was allergic. Have to admit i did wonder how much the allergies were related to all the white carpet I had seen in the pics but I am sometimes a suspicious person.
> 
> I try and be guided by what I think is the best thing for the dog involved and block out everything else...


This mindset, placing the welfare of the dog first in all things, is what qualifies responsible breeders IMHO. You pick dogs to breed based on the welfare of the litter, husbandry, socialization and early training based on enabling stable dogs, and homes for puppies based on the welfare you feel they will provide.

I think if a breeder is following this model, and utilizing help from experienced, knowledgeable breeders, they are what I would consider a responsible breeder.

David Winners


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

I haven’t commented on this thread because I have never purchased a dog from a breeder, and I never will because it is my personal preference to adopt from a shelter/rescue. 

But, I just wanted to say to those breeders who have responded to this thread how great I think your responses have been… putting the interest of the dog above all else! 

@ Carmspack and Chris Wild,… while I know I have never met either one of you, I would not hesitate to refer someone to your kennels - based not only on your individual posts here, but also on the mindset those who have purchased dogs from you have about breeders.

@Chris Wild, I have met some of your dogs in real life (and their owners) and I have been impressed with both.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

David Winners said:


> This mindset, placing the welfare of the dog first in all things, is what qualifies responsible breeders IMHO.


Well, I think I was still typing my post when you posted this... as you can tell from my post, I agree 100% with this statement.


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## Kejasa (Jul 8, 2012)

Not a breeder, but it seems that refunding your money would be the ethical thing to do. There are laws about being able to inspect/return items within a certain amount of time. You might also want to look up unjust enrichment.

As for breeders, I had a horrible experience with a breeder who was highly recommended on this board. For now on I have decided to only ask for information from people who actually had a problem with the breeder. I want to know how a breeder treats his/her customers when a problem arises.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A lot of people recommend breeders that they know nothing about based on what they see on the breeder's website. They say something like: I love her dogs (based on pictures posted on the breeder's website or on here), and would not hesitate to recommend this breeder (based on the fact that their name may come up often). 

They have never dealt with the breeder, have never seen or met the dogs in person, and they themselves may not have ever bought a dog from a breeder, their dogs having been all rescues, so they may not even have a base-line of personal experience with ANY breeder to make recommendations. Not referring to anyone in particular, just generalizing from many similar posts I've seen over the years. 

When people consider going with a breeder, they need to ask for a bunch of references, find people that own dogs from the breeder on their own, and get feedback like that.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yup...huge problem on this forum. People recommending breeders they have no experience with except for a few posts here and there on this forum. I've always found an issue with that, especially once I started actually meeting dogs from kennels and breeders in real life. Things are really different when you step away from the computer screen.

If you look at everyone's signature, you'll notice very very very few people have a dog from the same breeder. I've met a few dogs from the same kennel, but its rare. If a breeder has 5 or more litters a year, there's a chance you meet a couple dogs over a period of a few years if they're in your area. So few dogs travel far, and most dogs stay within the area. Many go to pet homes, which are never heard from or seen again, and then there are a few that are shown/trialed that you get to see.

It's really not about the breeder being ethical, moral, reputable, whatever. Sadly, sometimes people don't act the way we want them to or expect them to. Dogs lose value very quickly if there isn't training on them. Most puppy buyers want their dogs in the door at 8 weeks old. There are some that are looking for an older one, but its rarer. Breeder could be out money, time, ect.

It's funny...we want to treat dogs like they're more than just property, but as soon as a dispute over money comes up, property rights and laws start getting pulled in. Laws about right of return, money back, ect gets brought up as if this is just another thing...and yet if the breeder treats their puppies like property, they get questioned and called out for that as well.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> A lot of people recommend breeders that they know nothing about based on what they see on the breeder's website. They say something like: I love her dogs (based on pictures posted on the breeder's website or on here), and would not hesitate to recommend this breeder (based on the fact that their name may come up often).
> 
> They have never dealt with the breeder, have never seen or met the dogs in person, and they themselves may not have ever bought a dog from a breeder, their dogs having been all rescues, so they may not even have a base-line of personal experience with ANY breeder to make recommendations. Not referring to anyone in particular, just generalizing from many similar posts I've seen over the years.


Just in case this is in reference to my earlier post, I will clarify 

I would have no problem referring any of my friends *in real life* to the kennels I named if they were interested in purchasing a GSD. I know my friends and trust that *they would do additional research* before making any final purchase decision. 

If I didn't know them well enough to know that about them, I would give them generic "How to find a breeder" advice.

I have never, and would never, make breeder recommendations to people I do not know on an Internet forum.  I typically don’t even look at those threads, much less reply.


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## Kejasa (Jul 8, 2012)

martemchik said:


> It's really not about the breeder being ethical, moral, reputable, whatever. Sadly, sometimes people don't act the way we want them to or expect them to. Dogs lose value very quickly if there isn't training on them. Most puppy buyers want their dogs in the door at 8 weeks old. There are some that are looking for an older one, but its rarer. Breeder could be out money, time, ect.
> 
> It's funny...we want to treat dogs like they're more than just property, but as soon as a dispute over money comes up, property rights and laws start getting pulled in. Laws about right of return, money back, ect gets brought up as if this is just another thing...and yet if the breeder treats their puppies like property, they get questioned and called out for that as well.


Animals are considered "goods" when sold whether we like it or not. You might want to check out: Animal Legal & Historical Center - Michigan State University College of Law


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Kejasa said:


> Animals are considered "goods" when sold whether we like it or not. You might want to check out: Animal Legal & Historical Center - Michigan State University College of Law


Again, I don't have a problem looking at a dog as a good. But there are too many times when a breeder takes that POV and the forum makes them out to be the bad guy and not being "humane" enough. Plenty of times I've read, "we're dealing with living things not X," and so the breeder is expected to be more understanding than if they were selling an inanimate object.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy and what the public seems to expect from breeders.

I can't drive a car around for 3 days, find nothing wrong with it, and then return it for a full refund just because.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LifeofRiley said:


> Just in case this is in reference to my earlier post, I will clarify


I just knew that someone would take my remarks persnally, LOL!


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> A lot of people recommend breeders that they know nothing about based on what they see on the breeder's website. They say something like: I love her dogs (based on pictures posted on the breeder's website or on here), and would not hesitate to recommend this breeder (based on the fact that their name may come up often).
> 
> They have never dealt with the breeder, have never seen or met the dogs in person, and they themselves may not have ever bought a dog from a breeder, their dogs having been all rescues, so they may not even have a base-line of personal experience with ANY breeder to make recommendations. *Not referring to anyone in particular, just generalizing from many similar posts I've seen over the years*.
> 
> When people consider going with a breeder, they need to ask for a bunch of references, find people that own dogs from the breeder on their own, and get feedback like that.





Castlemaid said:


> I just knew that someone would take my remarks persnally, LOL!


Hmmm... Wonder why?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I no longer recommend breeders on here after I turned out to be wrong about a breeder I dealt with, I will say "I know John Doe has a couple of their dogs and they are happy with them, speak to John Doe about his dogs and his relationship with said breeder."

I personally have never met a respectable, reputable GSD breeder. 

Also, I don't remember the exact wording in my contract with my Dalmatian breeder but I believe it's if I return him within 6 months I get a full refund, if I return him within 1 year I get half a refund.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

alexg said:


> Hmmm... Wonder why?


Because I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, but pointing out a general pattern that I see all the time, (as mentioned in my post, but I guess some people love getting into conspiracy theory mindset and read way more into stuff than they should.)

I'd say to those who feel that way FIND people that have gotten pups from them, and ASK about the dog and their experience with the breeder.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Castlemaid said:


> Because I wasn't referring to anyone in particular...QUOTE] I know you were not. I even highlighted that in my quote.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

For anyone thinking the breeder should give a full refund, couldn't anyone claim allergies when wanting to return a dog?

It's like the sign at the shoe store, you can't return shoe simply because you don't like them. So, most people just say they hurt their feet.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Harley120R said:


> For anyone thinking the breeder should give a full refund, couldn't anyone claim allergies when wanting to return a dog?
> 
> It's like the sign at the shoe store, you can't return shoe simply because you don't like them. So, most people just say they hurt their feet.



Yes they could. 

And this is where I as a breeder have to step back and make a decision on what I think is best for the dog and not worry about if someone is pulling something on me or not.

But that is my comfort level and every breeder has to find their own.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Betty said:


> And this is where I as a breeder have to step back and make a decision on what I think is best for the dog and not worry about if someone is pulling something on me or not.


Agree, but that's just me.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Betty said:


> Yes they could.
> 
> *And this is where I as a breeder have to step back and make a decision on what I think is best for the dog and not worry about if someone is pulling something on me or not.*
> 
> But that is my comfort level and every breeder has to find their own.


Exactly! I am no breeder but hypothetically I wouldn't care if someone was trying to pull one over on me or not. If I ever do decide to breed (years and years down the line) I am taking full responsibility for any life I bring into this world regardless of age, ailment, behavior size or whatever the issue may be. Would the dog be better suited in a home thats frustrated with the dog and breeder, or sold on craigslist who wants nothing more than to tie them up outside for their entire lives and use them as an incubator just to "make money" or back with me where I can make the appropriate accomodations for the dog in question. Take the time to find the right home, and know that I placed the dog in a better home more suited for its needs. To me its a no-brainer. I would gladly give the money back than to loose a dog I chose to bring into this world for good! 

As for recommending breeders, it takes ALOT for me to recognize a good breeder. And to actually reccomend one I feel you need to have multiple experiences with said breeder (either by owning their dogs and seeing their true ethical code come out once the purchase has been made and the type of support they are willing to offer or by being around them and their dogs on multiple occasions with sufficient experience to where you can actually form an opinion. There are only 2 breeders I can legitimately reccomend because I've experienced their dogs, their ethics and what I believe they stand for. Even then I will only refer and suggest they follow up with their own assessments.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Repost


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Betty said:


> Yes they could.
> 
> And this is where I as a breeder have to step back and make a decision on what I think is best for the dog and not worry about if someone is pulling something on me or not.
> 
> But that is my comfort level and every breeder has to find their own.


If the dog is being returned to you, how is the best interest of the dog being affected whether you give a full or partial refund or no refund at all for that matter?

Myself, I would give a refund in this case. That's just me. But, I'd do it if it was an inanimate object too. That's just me.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

As far as recommending breeders. People shouldn't do it unless they know exactly what they are talking about. I've learned that the short time I've been reading this forum. 

There is no way anyone should recommend a breeder because they simply read their website and liked the look of their dogs. 

No recommendation should be based on the fact that a person once talked to the breeder and they seemed like a nice person. I'd rather buy a quality dog from a mean person than a less quality dog from a nice person.

A recommendation shouldn't be based on the one bit of knowledge that you know someone here that bought a dog from breeder xyz and they seem happy with their dog. Most people aren't going to admit they don't like their dog and a sample of one just isn't enough. 

I've been publicly recommend breeders and asked about others in private then I get PM's or answers saying to run the other direction. It's my guess, there are many bad breeders but they are made common knowledge because of the policy not to give bad reviews openly. So, the only individuals that know are those that ask specifically about a breeder and get PM's from people or you get lucky enough to get involved with someone that gets around and he/she personally knows who is a quality breeder first hand. 

That's my very amature knowledge.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Flipside, when people don't do their own homework, but want to be spoonfed recommendations, they are to blame just as much as the person recommending a breeder.

Best way to find a good dog is to go out and see dogs in training, and chat with the handlers. Research bloodlines and pedigrees and try to find a breeder that is matching up what works. 
It's super easy to post a thread on choosing a breeder, but there is no point in it if you don't know what you don't know.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, consider the age of the dog. I see a lot of people on forums comment that they are absolutely thrilled with their dog and it's 10 weeks old. How about people who have dogs that are healthy adults? Did they accomplish the training and titles they wanted? Would they go back to the breeder for another puppy?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Also, consider the age of the dog. I see a lot of people on forums comment that they are absolutely thrilled with their dog and it's 10 weeks old. How about people who have dogs that are healthy adults? Did they accomplish the training and titles they wanted? Would they go back to the breeder for another puppy?


God that kills me as well..."I've had this dog a week! It's the smartest dog in the world! It already knows sit!" Everyone of our dogs knew sit within a week... And...dog is super healthy! No sign of HD!

I know you're all talking about how you'd give the money back, but what if the breeder has something going on where they really can't have the dog around and its a huge inconvenience that the dog was returned 3 days after going home? What if they now have to board this dog because they're planning a vacation and had everything set for after the puppies were gone?

Yes...many of us go to breeders with long waiting lists, and when 8 puppies are born, there are 16 people hoping to get one. But there are plenty of good, reputable, or not so reputable breeders that don't have this problem. They sell 8, they don't have a home for one if it gets returned. They've been turning people away for months saying they're sold out and those people went elsewhere and now have pups...most people aren't willing to wait around on a waiting list for months. On top of that, I remember how angry the forum gets when a breeder holds a deposit for months or years through failed breedings, so I never recommend anyone puts a deposit down without their puppy being on the ground.

Some breeders (on this forum) have multiple litters down at a time. Expenses get covered by the fact that a litter just went home. There might not be $1200 sitting in the bank account even though its only been 3 days.

Personally, I want to think that I'd give back the money, but who knows? I'm surprised OP didn't call the breeder and ask this question before returning the dog. All this could've been avoided with a phone call. Maybe if OP found out the money wasn't going to be returned, OP could've sold the dog to a friend or family member that was looking for one and the breeder would've been happy with that arrangement.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> All this could've been avoided with a phone call. Maybe if OP found out the money wasn't going to be returned, OP could've sold the dog to a friend or family member that was looking for one and the breeder would've been happy with that arrangement.


Ask the question *before* you place the deposit. I know of someone that asked a breeder what happens if the pup doesn't work out for IPO. Breeder right then and there discontinued any relationship. Breeder was protecting themselves(puppy) from a situation where the dog would be rehomed instead of loved if it was a wash. I understand the potential buyers question, because she was looking for her future IPO competitor. Hard to find green dogs reasonably priced with little foundation placed that are good to go in the sport. And not knowing if the pup chosen can do what it takes is a risk too.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Flipside, when people don't do their own homework, but want to be spoonfed recommendations, they are to blame just as much as the person recommending a breeder.
> 
> Best way to find a good dog is to go out and see dogs in training, and chat with the handlers. Research bloodlines and pedigrees and try to find a breeder that is matching up what works.
> It's super easy to post a thread on choosing a breeder, but there is no point in it if you don't know what you don't know.


How do I know what to look for at these training sessions? What if they brought their one good dog out of a hundred. Nice to go visit their kennel but what if they are 1000 miles away?

I can't read a pedigree. Don't know if your way is the "best" way but it is one way. I think you can get a professional to help. 

Would you go observe a construction site then build your own house or would you consult professionals if you had no clue?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I don't think many people buy a dog thinking they are going to have to return it...I think when you buy a dog you need to take responsibility for the breeder you choose even if someone on a board recommended them...and in the end I think it boils down to meeting the person and deciding if your trust them...Funny when I bought Rorie the breeder promised me another dog if she wasn't a schutzhund candidate...she is...I am not...not sure what happens then...its just life I guess


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> How do I know what to look for at these training sessions? What if they brought their one good dog out of a hundred. Nice to go visit their kennel but what if they are 1000 miles away?
> 
> I can't read a pedigree. Don't know if your way is the "best" way but it is one way. I think you can get a professional to help.
> 
> Would you go observe a construction site then build your own house or would you consult professionals if you had no clue?


How do you know if someone is a "professional" if you don't do a bit of homework? I'm not talking about going to a breeders place and watch them train(though nothing wrong with that) but go to some clubs or whereever and look at the dogs...how they work, their temperaments do show thru when they train. If you don't know what to look for, keep going, it will eventually appear to you and you'll see what you really love and sometimes see what you don't really want to own. Like I posted, we don't know what we don't know. It isn't as easy as asking a question and getting a black and white answer. Experience is usually the best way to learn. There are some really good facebook pages that are informative on lines, first hand experience chiming in on dogs pedigree's. I've learned quite a bit from those pages.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Harley120R, the more I observe dogs and train dogs the more I just go with my gut  It's your family/lifestyle, your goals, YOUR dog. You are absolutely right that many people will say what you want to hear and show you only what they think you want to see, some even with good intentions and unknowingly kennel blind. You don't have to be an expert to observe a dog and interact with that dog and make some judgment calls about whether YOU think that type of dog will work in your home/situation. Even the dogs I've sought out as sport prospects were chosen not based solely on the performance or titles of the parents (and in one case, even in spite of), but based on the temperament I saw and interacted with around the house, casually on the sidelines of training, how the bitch interacted with the puppies and with people coming to see the litter, etc. I can't predict with 100% accuracy whether any dog will turn out exactly as I'd hoped as far as training and titling goals but at least I can try to find the best fit for my family and lifestyle so the dog fits in our home regardless.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Harley120R said:


> How do I know what to look for at these training sessions? What if they brought their one good dog out of a hundred. Nice to go visit their kennel but what if they are 1000 miles away?
> 
> I can't read a pedigree. Don't know if your way is the "best" way but it is one way. I think you can get a professional to help.
> 
> Would you go observe a construction site then build your own house or would you consult professionals if you had no clue?


I can't read a pedigree either. So when I was looking I went to events to watch the dogs. What do I like in a dog? Which ones caught my eye?

I went to clubs and met some dogs from breeders I was interested in. Watched some more work. I met Wolfstraum dogs, Alto Baum dogs, Wildhaus dogs, Olgameister, imported dogs. People import dogs from all over. You don't need to travel far to get a feel for the kinds of dogs you like and find a breeder that can provide that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liesje said:


> Harley120R, the more I observe dogs and train dogs the more I just go with my gut  It's your family/lifestyle, your goals, YOUR dog. You are absolutely right that many people will say what you want to hear and show you only what they think you want to see, some even with good intentions and unknowingly kennel blind. You don't have to be an expert to observe a dog and interact with that dog and make some judgment calls about whether YOU think that type of dog will work in your home/situation. Even the dogs I've sought out as sport prospects were chosen not based solely on the performance or titles of the parents (and in one case, even in spite of), but based on the temperament I saw and interacted with around the house, casually on the sidelines of training, how the bitch interacted with the puppies and with people coming to see the litter, etc. I can't predict with 100% accuracy whether any dog will turn out exactly as I'd hoped as far as training and titling goals but at least I can try to find the best fit for my family and lifestyle so the dog fits in our home regardless.


Well, as you've pointed out many times, you never buy a puppy with a contract, so you have the right to sell if it is a wash, or if there are problems with the dog fitting in.
Though without buying/selling on a contract creates problems....
Easy to rehome a puppy when the breeder allows the buyer to do whatever they want with their dog. I guess the moral of this thread is don't buy a pup on a contract. 
Not sure though, how many responsible breeders are ok with what they produce being moved from home to home(or bred without health tests or titles). I think most want the dog to stay where they've carefully screened/ and placed it. And don't want their kennel name associated with poor breeding practices.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Well, as you've pointed out many times, you never buy a puppy with a contract, so you have the right to sell if it is a wash, or if there are problems with the dog fitting in.
> Though without buying/selling on a contract creates problems....
> Easy to rehome a puppy when the breeder allows the buyer to do whatever they want with their dog. I guess the moral of this thread is don't buy a pup on a contract.
> Not sure though, how many responsible breeders are ok with what they produce being moved from home to home(or bred without health tests or titles). I think most want the dog to stay where they've carefully screened/ and placed it. And don't want their kennel name associated with poor breeding practices.


I think it comes down to what you are comfortable with. Not specifically contract or no contract. But if you are comfortable and understand all the terms of the contract then by all means sign one if not look for alternate options (no contract or a breeder with a contract you are more agreeable with) but if you choose to sign a contract then morally (and legally) you have to oblige to its terms. If it clearly says no refunds under any circumstances then don't expect one. Morally I would issue a refund but legally there is no expectation as its clearly written. But the fact that you never signed it raises some red flags. Still I would honor the contract both parties were clear on. It would be nice if they refunded the money but they put a claus stating they dont have too. Morally they should, legally not so much.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> How do you know if someone is a "professional" if you don't do a bit of homework? I'm not talking about going to a breeders place and watch them train(though nothing wrong with that) but go to some clubs or whereever and look at the dogs...how they work, their temperaments do show thru when they train. If you don't know what to look for, keep going, it will eventually appear to you and you'll see what you really love and sometimes see what you don't really want to own. Like I posted, we don't know what we don't know. It isn't as easy as asking a question and getting a black and white answer. Experience is usually the best way to learn. There are some really good facebook pages that are informative on lines, first hand experience chiming in on dogs pedigree's. I've learned quite a bit from those pages.


I'm not arguing with you. I'm sure you know what you're talking about. But, I did ask the question and did eventually get a black and white answer. I threw out all the recommendations that just came as one word. The name of the Kennel. 

I did accept the recommendation by the person who gave it with an explanation. I was able to not only research the breeder recommended but also able to research the breeder giving the recommendation. I'll have to take my chances on that. Me going to watch the dog train will ad nothing to the equation. 

I bet a talented trainer can make an ok dog look a lot better than I could make a great dog look.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've bought puppies with contracts, only one (Nikon) hasn't had one. I don't *care* if they come with a contract or guarantee, but almost all bought in the US do. I won't buy limited registration if that's what you mean.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Harley120R said:


> Me going to watch the dog train will ad nothing to the equation.
> 
> I bet a talented trainer can make an ok dog look a lot better than I could make a great dog look.


You wouldn't go to watch a routine (go to a trial for that), but often people go "watch dogs train" to actually meet the dog, ask questions on the sidelines, spend some time just hanging out with the dogs to see how they behave both when on the field but also off. For example, last puppy I bought I wanted a dog that would be on the friendly side of a GSD, accepting of other people, OK living as a pet even being trained to a high level of performance, so I wasn't signing any papers or checks without meeting both the sire and the dam. I already saw the sire perform on the field, but I went to the training club to meet the dogs on the side, see how they interacted with their owner and random people, play with them, etc.

Like getting a new car...I'm no mechanic but there's no chance I'd consider buying a vehicle without a test drive even if I'm just cruising around the block and have little knowledge of how to really test what's under the hood. It won't necessarily make the sale but is a jumping off point. If I like how it handles on the road, I can consider further...


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> Well, as you've pointed out many times, you never buy a puppy with a contract, so you have the right to sell if it is a wash, or if there are problems with the dog fitting in.
> Though without buying/selling on a contract creates problems....
> Easy to rehome a puppy when the breeder allows the buyer to do whatever they want with their dog. I guess the moral of this thread is don't buy a pup on a contract.
> Not sure though, how many responsible breeders are ok with what they produce being moved from home to home(or bred without health tests or titles). I think most want the dog to stay where they've carefully screened/ and placed it. And don't want their kennel name associated with poor breeding practices.


You bring up a great subject that's been weighing on my mind, but I didn't want to be accused of be cynical. 

I agree there should be a guarantee in writing on the dogs health. What gets me is this thing about you having to return the dog at your expense if some reason, at any time, you can't keep it. Why? So the breeder can resell it for more profit? Smells like dog poo to me. 

I did see one contract, I posted this before, where they would rehome it and give you the money minus $300 of the selling price. That seems more reasonable.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Liesje said:


> You wouldn't go to watch a routine (go to a trial for that), but often people go "watch dogs train" to actually meet the dog, ask questions on the sidelines, spend some time just hanging out with the dogs to see how they behave both when on the field but also off. For example, last puppy I bought I wanted a dog that would be on the friendly side of a GSD, accepting of other people, OK living as a pet even being trained to a high level of performance, so I wasn't signing any papers or checks without meeting both the sire and the dam. I already saw the sire perform on the field, but I went to the training club to meet the dogs on the side, see how they interacted with their owner and random people, play with them, etc.
> 
> Like getting a new car...I'm no mechanic but there's no chance I'd consider buying a vehicle without a test drive even if I'm just cruising around the block and have little knowledge of how to really test what's under the hood. It won't necessarily make the sale but is a jumping off point. If I like how it handles on the road, I can consider further...


I live in St Louis. Their is some sort if Sieger show here in May and something here in October. I'll check them out, but I actually planned on my yet to be born puppy to win both those events. 

My experience with GSD is this. I once had a GSD love me so much, he wouldn't let go of me. Kept tugging at my britches. Turns out it was a police dog and I was running from a cop. Thus my disdain for the working line dog. 



Just kidding. 

Back on the cars again? I've bought many without ever stepping foot in them and a few sight unseen. You know what you know.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The health guarantee(hips/elbows?) will usually replace the pup, but won't pay for medical. And how many really will give up a puppy they've fallen in love with? 
What about chronic allergies or other daily management type issues? Those aren't usually worded in a contract. Onyx was sold on a limited and I'd never, ever return her to her 'breeder'. And even if I did, I wouldn't want a pup from that breeder as a replacement. 
She's the reason I say do your own research and support the breeder that is producing the GSD that should be represented.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Liesje said:


> I've bought puppies with contracts, only one (Nikon) hasn't had one. I don't *care* if they come with a contract or guarantee, but almost all bought in the US do. I won't buy limited registration if that's what you mean.


You bring up another point I wanted to ask about. Limited registration. Is it common for a breeder to charge one price for limited registration and ask for a higher price for full registration. Or give limited registration with the option to upgrade after a couple years after seeing how the dog turns out? Seems weird to me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The OP had the dog less than three days, not three weeks. 

Yes, it is harder to find a home for a dog that is 11 weeks old than it is to find a home for a dog that is 8 weeks, especially when you have been telling everyone for a month, that the litter is spoken for. 

But, this dog was 13 weeks old already. The breeder did not turn down seventeen people to sell this dog to the OP who sends it back after a test drive. No. This transaction cost the breeder zilch. They should fork over a refund. 

I give my people 2 weeks, whenever they get the dog. So if they got the dog at 14 weeks, bring it back and 16, they get their money back. If they got their dog at 8 weeks, and I have turned down other people, and I get the dog back at 10 weeks -- I did, I got a dog back after 11 days. The owner was refunded. It's my problem. I sold the dog to someone who's kid wanted a dachsund. I was worried about it, and was just as happy to get the pup back. 

I sold her again without any trouble at all. 

If someone takes a pup home at 8 weeks, and then brings it back in a year, it may be irresponsible to just sell the dog without giving it some time to acclimate to its surroundings, work with it and do some training. With training, and socialization, and time spent with the puppy it may be worth the same as a 8 week old puppy to the right buyer. Chances are its going to be in your home, going to classes, getting vetted, etc for a while until you find the right buyer. 

Most decent buyers will give the dog back to the breeder rather than dumping it at the vet. I will offer to pick the puppy up, so they are not put out on gas or any other expense. I don't think breeders should feel compelled to buy a puppy back. 

But if someone realizes right away that it isn't working out, then refund the money and call a few of the people you turned down. Probably one of them will be happy to take the puppy. And, holding onto the original purchase price, when the dog was out of your house for a couple of day, is theft. There is no ethical excuse or scenario, unless they let the dog get hit by a car, or drink antifreeze. If the pup is alive, and the people realize that it isn't working, whatever the reason, give them their money back and resell the puppy. 

It _is _a business, however much we don't like to hear about it in those terms. In any business you want happy customers. Happy customers come back. Happy customers say good things about you. But in the dog-business it is more. We care about those little fur balls. We want happy customers, because we want our puppies to be in homes where they are likely to succeed. If we find out that there is a reason that this dog/family match is going to be miserable, bring him back and we'll find another home where he is better suited. 

Going to a breeder, a puppy buyer should ask or like hearing that the breeder will take the puppy back at any point in their lives. But they should be going into this with the idea that that will never happen. I would never expect a puppy buyer to ask ALL of the possible scenarios that might make this not work out, like what if one of us suddenly develops and allergy to the dog?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Harley120R said:


> I live in St Louis. Their is some sort if Sieger show here in May and something here in October. I'll check them out, but I actually planned on my yet to be born puppy to win both those events.
> 
> My experience with GSD is this. I once had a GSD love me so much, he wouldn't let go of me. Kept tugging at my britches. Turns out it was a police dog and I was running from a cop. Thus my disdain for the working line dog.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you want us to say then. You don't want to get duped and only want recommendations from people who "know exactly what they are talking about", but don't want to actually meet dogs, breeders, observe them training, performing, or just interacting casually and decide for yourself? You want a full health guarantee including expenses incurred for the breeder to take the dog back but can't read the pedigree. IF you want a professional to help, I'd say use a dog broker with good contacts to find you what you are looking for. But then you get the fun of figuring out which dog brokers are legit....

If you live in St. Louis you can attend lots of dog events with Purina Farms so close. We competed in U-FLI nationals there in Aug (I think our nationals goes there every other year so will be back in 2015). There are tons of dog and GSD events there.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Harley120R said:


> You bring up another point I wanted to ask about. Limited registration. Is it common for a breeder to charge one price for limited registration and ask for a higher price for full registration. Or give limited registration with the option to upgrade after a couple years after seeing how the dog turns out? Seems weird to me.


Most decent breeders do not charge different prices based solely on registration, since that has no bearing on the quality of the dog. Usually it's the latter, you buy on limited and when you can prove (whatever the particular breeder requires) that the dog is breedworthy, they will upgrade the registration to full. There are pros and cons for both, and luckily plenty of breeders doing it each way so it's generally not a problem whether you want limited or full, and many breeders who say or advertise limited registration will issue full registration if you talk to them privately and have a good reason. For those looking for a pet or most competition/sport dogs, full registration is not necessary. Some breeders do have pricing "tiers" and will sell a dog on full registration for like $500+ more which is shady to me since the cost difference in the registration is NOT that much.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Harley120R said:


> You bring up another point I wanted to ask about. Limited registration. Is it common for a breeder to charge one price for limited registration and ask for a higher price for full registration. Or give limited registration with the option to upgrade after a couple years after seeing how the dog turns out? Seems weird to me.


I think a responsible breeder mostly sells on a limited, with the upgrade to full when the dog passes health and titles(no extra fee other than what AKC requires). Thoug, they may trust the buyer if the buyer wants a full registration(no extra fee)
The reason mostly for limited is so the breeder can make sure their kennel name is not tarnished with someone breeding a pup from their registration before the health clearances and titles are achieved. It protects their reputation. When a breeder sells on a full registration, who knows what may happen when their registered name thru the puppy, is producing some dogs that are less than stellar, or god forbid breeding ooops litters over and over. Kennel name should be protected and usually that is done easier with a limited.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Harley120R said:


> What gets me is this thing about you having to return the dog at your expense if some reason, at any time, you can't keep it. Why? So the breeder can resell it for more profit? Smells like dog poo to me.


The fact of the matter is that the majority of people who purchase a pup from a breeder (i.e. not representative of folks on this forum) do so locally. From a rescue perspective, I wish more breeders had “right of first refusal” in their contracts as well as a “guarantee” to always take the dog back no matter what the circumstance.

I know first hand that many people who have surrendered their dog would have preferred to return the dog to the breeder because it would have either eased their fears or their conscience about the whole situation. Of course, in other situations, I think the only thing it would have eased is their convenience… but, that is another story.

ETA: But, maybe, in many of the cases I witnessed, it is best the dog came to rescue vs. back to the breeder.... so, I don't know. I know that I think it is great that the reputable breeders, those who keep the best interest of the dog at the forefront, do guarantee to take their dogs back.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Liesje said:


> I'm not sure what you want us to say then. You don't want to get duped and only want recommendations from people who "know exactly what they are talking about", but don't want to actually meet dogs, breeders, observe them training, performing, or just interacting casually and decide for yourself? You want a full health guarantee including expenses incurred for the breeder to take the dog back but can't read the pedigree. IF you want a professional to help, I'd say use a dog broker with good contacts to find you what you are looking for. But then you get the fun of figuring out which dog brokers are legit....
> 
> If you live in St. Louis you can attend lots of dog events with Purina Farms so close. We competed in U-FLI nationals there in Aug (I think our nationals goes there every other year so will be back in 2015). There are tons of dog and GSD events there.


Since most people around here miss out on any kind of attempt at humor at all, I specifically wrote "just kidding" and it still didn't fly. 

I guess that's why a lot of you are better with dogs than people. JUST KIDDING.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I bet a talented trainer can make an ok dog look a lot better than I could make a great dog look.


Man, I _wish_ it were that easy to make an iffy dog look good. Sure would take a lot of stress out of my life.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> I think a responsible breeder mostly sells on a limited, with the upgrade to full when the dog passes health and titles(no extra fee other than what AKC requires). Thoug, they may trust the buyer if the buyer wants a full registration(no extra fee)
> The reason mostly for limited is so the breeder can make sure their kennel name is not tarnished with someone breeding a pup from their registration before the health clearances and titles are achieved. It protects their reputation. When a breeder sells on a full registration, who knows what may happen when their registered name thru the puppy, is producing some dogs that are less than stellar, or god forbid breeding ooops litters over and over. Kennel name should be protected and usually that is done easier with a limited.


You made that quite clear. Thanks.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I would never buy a dog with limited registration and never have.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> Yes, it is harder to find a home for a dog that is 11 weeks old than it is to find a home for a dog that is 8 weeks, especially when you have been telling everyone for a month, that the litter is spoken for.


I was reading the "Who to select a Breeder" section in this forum. And it said to stay away from breeders that lower the price of their puppies as they get older. In fact, it said the price of the puppy should go up as it got older because it would be better trained. Wouldn't an 11 or 13 week old puppy, if being properly socialized, crate trained etc, be worth more and more expensive than an 8 week old? 

Did I read that wrong or was it poorly written. I'd like to know because I might have passed up on a great deal today.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Merciel said:


> Man, I _wish_ it were that easy to make an iffy dog look good. Sure would take a lot of stress out of my life.


I bet I can make a Champ look like a Chump.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Harley120R said:


> I was reading the "Who to select a Breeder" section in this forum. And it said to stay away from breeders that lower the price of their puppies as they get older. In fact, it said the price of the puppy should go up as it got older because it would be better trained. Wouldn't an 11 or 13 week old puppy, if being properly socialized, crate trained etc, be worth more and more expensive than an 8 week old?
> 
> Did I read that wrong or was it poorly written. I'd like to know because I might have passed up on a great deal today.


It depends on the dog....I wouldn't necessarily pay more for a dog with a foundation that isn't what I'd want. And I would pay a bit more for a dog with vetting, etc and a nice start. I personally wouldn't look at the price, but the individual dog/training, etc. And why the dog is being sold in the first place is probably most important. Seller should be transparent.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Harley120R said:


> I was reading the "Who to select a Breeder" section in this forum. And it said to stay away from breeders that lower the price of their puppies as they get older. In fact, it said the price of the puppy should go up as it got older because it would be better trained. Wouldn't an 11 or 13 week old puppy, if being properly socialized, crate trained etc, be worth more and more expensive than an 8 week old?
> 
> Did I read that wrong or was it poorly written. I'd like to know because I might have passed up on a great deal today.


This isn't always the case. Especially in the United States. There are a lot more people looking for 8 week old puppies than there are for 8 month old "green dogs." It's actually a very small market for people that want a dog that's a little trained, or has had what is commonly called a "foundation." Those that want that type of dog, are the ones that need the dog for something in particular and can't have a puppy "fail."

When it comes to dogs, the size/cuteness is tremendous from 8 weeks to 12 weeks. So pet homes want 8 week old puppies. The longer the dog sits, the bigger it gets, the more people think something is wrong with it, and so the price generally decreases to give people an incentive to buy that dog. And in the United States its much more likely the older pup is just a kennel dog, not really in the house and not really getting trained. The breeders have other things to do than take care of a dog they're getting rid of anyways.

As for breeders that get first right of refusal...many don't resell the dog. They place it in a trusted home that they can GUARANTEE won't rehome the dog. I just got a female like that. It was a breeder that I was going to get a puppy from, and they ended up getting a female back. They were more than happy to give her to me because they knew she'd live the good life for the rest of her life.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

As for limited/full registration. I'm not buying a dog from a breeder that doesn't trust me enough to sell me full right off the bat. I'm not messing around with not fully owning the thing I just paid 4 figures for.


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

martemchik said:


> It's actually a very small market for people that want a dog that's a little trained, or has had what is commonly called a "foundation."


Really? I think there is a large underserved market in this area, at least, from breeders who anyone would trust with providing that foundation.

In fact, perhaps the reason people are not seeing the "demand" in the purebred markets is because it is largely being met by rescues... known temperament, housetraining & basic obedience done by a foster home.

Most people want a great family pet in my dog world, not a world competitor, and rescues can help provide them that.

ETA: I met someone over the holidays who is buying a puppy from a place that purports to train them in all the basics and thus the pups will only be available after 6 months of age. Interesting.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I was reading the "Who to select a Breeder" section in this forum. And it said to stay away from breeders that lower the price of their puppies as they get older. In fact, it said the price of the puppy should go up as it got older because it would be better trained. Wouldn't an 11 or 13 week old puppy, if being properly socialized, crate trained etc, be worth more and more expensive than an 8 week old?
> 
> Did I read that wrong or was it poorly written. I'd like to know because I might have passed up on a great deal today.


I can see a good reason for the price to go up as the puppy is getting older.
Considering you are (as you should) buying from a reputable breeder, the older puppy will have a next round(s) of vaccination (breeder's expense), training and socialization by someone who has a lot of experience and you already trust (otherwise you would be buying elsewhere).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with that, & the dog with a limited amount of training,vetting, and health testing from a breeder or a broker is usually quadruple what a rescue would ask.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Some people do it that aren't the breeder. In certain circles, it's really not all that rare for a puppy to be sent to someone else for anything from a few weeks to many months, either to just "grow out" or to be trained/socialized with a certain foundation that that person can provide. I've seen it quite a bit in Schutzhund as well as flyball, both of which you don't start training in earnest until a dog is more physically and mentally developed but have a better chance (well, more choice) of finding what you want in a puppy. A friend of mine sent me one of the best puppies from her first litter and when we had someone that wanted to buy a puppy of a certain age with specific things done, that is what I provided for them. He was raised a bit differently than how I would have raised my own puppy but was purchased for a specific purpose and we were able to provide what they were looking for at that age. You can't really make (in $$$) what you put in, but some people enjoy doing it.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LifeofRiley said:


> Really? I think there is a large underserved market in this area, at least, from breeders who anyone would trust with providing that foundation.
> 
> In fact, perhaps the reason people are not seeing the "demand" in the purebred markets is because it is largely being met by rescues... known temperament, housetraining & basic obedience done by a foster home.
> 
> ...


We're talking about two different markets...

People that NEED a dog for work, are usually willing to pay more, and therefore care more about that foundation.

Pet people, that want a known temperament because they want their animal to "fit," aren't going to be shelling out $3000 for a dog because like you said, you can get a shelter/rescue for $200. The "foundation" you're talking about is way different than a foundation necessary for a service dog, police dog, or Schutzhund dog. That market is TINY. A solid pet is fairly easy to find. A solid working prospect...not so much.

You've even proved that the market is tiny because you've met ONE person that's looking for that type of dog. One person, in all of Chicago, that wants a "trained" puppy. And that person is probably one of the famous Chicagoans (I grew up there) that has more money than they know what to do with and therefore is getting ripped off because no 6 month old puppy will be solid at most commands.

At the same time...those in the know will only pay so much for simple training. So, how much more is a housebroken dog that knows how to sit worth to me? Nothing more than an untrained one. How much more is a dog worth to me that has some basic manners? Who knows? What if those manners were just beaten into the dog? When you start allowing people to train your pet, you open up a whole new can of worms on top of the picking the breeder can of worms.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Some people do it that aren't the breeder. In certain circles, it's really not all that rare for a puppy to be sent to someone else for anything from a few weeks to many months, either to just "grow out" or to be trained/socialized with a certain foundation that that person can provide. I've seen it quite a bit in Schutzhund as well as flyball, both of which you don't start training in earnest until a dog is more physically and mentally developed but have a better chance (well, more choice) of finding what you want in a puppy. A friend of mine sent me one of the best puppies from her first litter and when we had someone that wanted to buy a puppy of a certain age with specific things done, that is what I provided for them. He was raised a bit differently than how I would have raised my own puppy but was purchased for a specific purpose and we were able to provide what they were looking for at that age. You can't really make (in $$$) what you put in, but some people enjoy doing it.



I'm not a breeder, but I have a puppy coming in that I'm raising up just to sell. Socialization and foundation work is all I'm doing then at about 8-10 months he will be for sale.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm not a breeder, but I have a puppy coming in that I'm raising up just to sell. Socialization and foundation work is all I'm doing then at about 8-10 months he will be for sale.


And how much money do you expect to sell him for?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

martemchik said:


> And how much money do you expect to sell him for?



I will decide that when I see how he turns out. I will only sell him for what I think he's worth.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

There is a market for green dogs....but it all depends on who is doing the training and what the purpose/goal is. 
I'm glad you are doing this mycobraracr, wish you success!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah I think its a great thing to do...and I think there is definitely a market there. But to make a living from that type of work? Not sure how possible it would be. If you enjoy working dogs, raising a green dog or two every year...its more of a hobby than a way to make a living.

I think "alpha dogs" pretty much spelled out how you can make a living with that type of work. Have a kennel of almost 300 dogs that you're training and selling. Plus government contracts always help...


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

martemchik said:


> As for limited/full registration. I'm not buying a dog from a breeder that doesn't trust me enough to sell me full right off the bat. I'm not messing around with not fully owning the thing I just paid 4 figures for.


I'm not buying from a breeder that isn't confident enough to know what his pup is going to turn out to be.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks! I have no intentions of making a living out of it. I figure I can do one or two at a time and see how it goes. At this point I just want to make sure people can look at me and say I'm honest, trustworthy, and that you know what you're getting with me. I just know, it's very hard to find a nice green dog in the states. I have looked with little success, and a friend recently was looking, came up empty so he imported a green dog from Germany.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

alexg said:


> I can see a good reason for the price to go up as the puppy is getting older.
> Considering you are (as you should) buying from a reputable breeder, the older puppy will have a next round(s) of vaccination (breeder's expense), training and socialization by someone who has a lot of experience and you already trust (otherwise you would be buying elsewhere).


Please define reputable breeder. I just talked to a reputable breeder that bred his $3500 puppy mill dog (yea right) with a champion working line dog with no pedigree. He was insulted when I said I'd seek else where.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> I will decide that when I see how he turns out. I will only sell him for what I think he's worth.


What is your future anticipated sales price? You have to have a plan?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> Thanks! I have no intentions of making a living out of it. I figure I can do one or two at a time and see how it goes. At this point I just want to make sure people can look at me and say I'm honest, trustworthy, and that you know what you're getting with me. I just know, it's very hard to find a nice green dog in the states. I have looked with little success, and a friend recently was looking, came up empty so he imported a green dog from Germany.


What an awesome way to gain experience as well! Are you going to stick to one breeder to receive dogs from, or try different ones?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> What an awesome way to gain experience as well! Are you going to stick to one breeder to receive dogs from, or try different ones?


I want to try different breeders and bloodlines.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I'm not buying from a breeder that isn't confident enough to know what his pup is going to turn out to be.


When it comes to actually working dogs there are no guarantees. Not every working line litter is full of police dogs, high level competition dogs, etc...pets? Probably, myco is preparing dogs for jobs and/or sport.

If it were that simple every person in professional sports would have offspring that could do professional sports...not the case.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

mycobraracr said:


> I want to try different breeders and bloodlines.


That sounds so interesting! You should write a blog or start a thread about your experiences. I'd def follow that, especially with regards to working the different lines.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Harley120R said:


> What is your future anticipated sales price? You have to have a plan?



I do have a plan but unfortunately, not a crystal ball. This is all going to be a gamble. Especially on my first "green dog". When I feel he's at a point ready to sell, I will decide then what to ask. He may be a great working prospect or he could be pet quality. The price is very different for those. Let's not forget those hip and elbow prelims. Who knows what those are going to look like. So I really can't give and estimated price. Too many variables.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> Please define reputable breeder. I just talked to a reputable breeder that bred his $3500 puppy mill dog (yea right) with a champion working line dog with no pedigree. He was insulted when I said I'd seek else where.


That will be your call to decide who you believe is a reputable breeder. It is someone that YOU choose to trust. I was just bringing the point for the price should be going up, not going down as the puppy getting older.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> I do have a plan but unfortunately, not a crystal ball. This is all going to be a gamble. Especially on my first "green dog". When I feel he's at a point ready to sell, I will decide then what to ask. He may be a great working prospect or he could be pet quality. The price is very different for those. Let's not forget those hip and elbow prelims. Who knows what those are going to look like. So I really can't give and estimated price. Too many variables.


I'd get a weather man's job.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Harley120R said:


> Please define reputable breeder. I just talked to a reputable breeder that bred his $3500 puppy mill dog (yea right) with a champion working line dog with no pedigree. He was insulted when I said I'd seek else where.


There is no definition. You need to decide for yourself what makes a breeder one you would deal with. 

For me, the first step in determining breedworthyness is proper registration with the accepted kennel club for the country. AKC or SV or Canadian Kennel Club for Canada. If the dog is not eligible to be registered -- doesn't have a recognized pedigree, than I don't have to look any farther. So for me, your reputable breeder is not reputable.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> When it comes to actually working dogs there are no guarantees. Not every working line litter is full of police dogs, high level competition dogs, etc...pets? Probably, myco is preparing dogs for jobs and/or sport.
> 
> If it were that simple every person in professional sports would have offspring that could do professional sports...not the case.


Don't they know when they are matching the dog with owner like I keep reading. Like all the good breeders do or is that just a fancy selling point. I'm starting to think I can go to the pound and get just as good a dog as I can get from xxxxx


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'd rather use the term responsible instead of reputable. Reputable can mean many things, and some aren't kind. If you don't know the difference in what to look for in a good breeder, there is a forum here and stickies to help inform.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Harley120R said:


> Don't they know when they are matching the dog with owner like I keep reading. Like all the good breeders do or is that just a fancy selling point. I'm starting to think I can go to the pound and get just as good a dog as I can get from xxxxx


It just depends on the level of excellence/training the owner expects. If a person expects a Schutzhund 3 title within 5 years, that can happen. If a person expects a world champion within 3 years, that's harder to find and match. A pet home, pretty easy to match. Just don't give them a dog that might be too much for them and they'll probably be happy with it. At the end of the day, a pet home will be happy with a dog that is much less driven/energetic than a home looking for that working prospect.

You have to be able to look at it from different POV. As a pet owner/buyer, its much easier to make you happy than it is someone that's been competing for 30 years and expects to get a Schutzhund 3 title with scores in the 295 range.

It goes back to when people recommend dogs...experience matters. If I ask for a good breeder recommendation, and a bunch of "pet owners" recommend some, is it really the same as a bunch of people that are working dogs and doing what I want to do with their dogs? To a pet owner, a good dog has a much different definition than to someone that is competing or working their dog.

BTW...I know it sounds bad when I say "pet owner" because we're all pet owners, but its just the easiest way to make the distinction between people that work their dogs and those that don't. And I in no way think there is anything wrong with being just a regular pet owner. Regular pet owners are 99% of the market.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> There is no definition. You need to decide for yourself what makes a breeder one you would deal with.
> 
> For me, the first step in determining breedworthyness is proper registration with the accepted kennel club for the country. AKC or SV or Canadian Kennel Club for Canada. If the dog is not eligible to be registered -- doesn't have a recognized pedigree, than I don't have to look any farther. So for me, your reputable breeder is not reputable.


That is the first step of course. Is it true that being able to register a dog tells you nothing about the quality of the dog? You may be able to look up their pedigree of course. 

You're a breeder. If I look up your registered dogs pedigrees what would it tell me? I can't read pedigree unless it says VA. I think that means Very Awesome.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

martemchik said:


> It just depends on the level of excellence/training the owner expects. If a person expects a Schutzhund 3 title within 5 years, that can happen. If a person expects a world champion within 3 years, that's harder to find and match. A pet home, pretty easy to match. Just don't give them a dog that might be too much for them and they'll probably be happy with it. At the end of the day, a pet home will be happy with a dog that is much less driven/energetic than a home looking for that working prospect.
> 
> You have to be able to look at it from different POV. As a pet owner/buyer, its much easier to make you happy than it is someone that's been competing for 30 years and expects to get a Schutzhund 3 title with scores in the 295 range.
> 
> ...


I just had my ole lady book me a flight to Germany. Time to catch up with a few of the cousins. Who said there are no short cuts and money can't buy everything. You know who said that? People with no money.


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## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I just had my ole lady book me a flight to Germany. Time to catch up with a few of the cousins. Who said there are no short cuts and money can't buy everything. You know who said that? People with no money.


I'm sure there is wide range in quality of the dogs in Germany and there are plenty of breeders to help people to part with their money.
You still need to know what are you doing, or need to know someone who does.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Harley120R said:


> That is the first step of course. Is it true that being able to register a dog tells you nothing about the quality of the dog? You may be able to look up their pedigree of course.
> 
> You're a breeder. If I look up your registered dogs pedigrees what would it tell me? I can't read pedigree unless it says VA. I think that means Very Awesome.


Actually, being AKC doesn't tell you anything about quality, except that you can be relatively certain that the dogs used to produce the litter were purebred GSDs. Yes, people can cheat anywhere, but they can also be caught, and frankly it is not worth it. It is not hard to obtain AKC registratable dogs and to register them. If someone is breeding without that, then why? 

Either they are breeding dogs they have no right to breed -- bought on a limited registration, or stolen, or their dogs or they are ineligible. This means the dogs ancestry is not known/unregistered, or the breeder was suspended from the AKC. Usually this happens for something pretty bad, like animal cruelty charges, or fraudulently registering litters. 

It depends on what organization does the pedigree. The AKC pedigrees do not list the VA dogs. Those are SV titles. SV is the breed club in Germany. So the AKC pedigree only lists AKC Champions, and AKC titles, color, hip and elbow ratings, dna, etc. 

A pedigree from pedigree database can be erroneous because people load them themselves on dogs that are not already listed. Odie's pedigree is here:SG1 Odessa von Aurelius

It says SG1 which would be the number 1 spot for the SG class -- puppies can only get up to SG1, which is Very good, Sehr gut. Anyway, her show book that I have only says SG-3 which is still really good, that means she was third in her class overall. German shows are generally much better populated than American shows. 

It also says ed-normal, but she also has her hips a-stamped. I'm not a member over there, so I don't edit. I just look at what is in there and shake my head. 

VA is Excellent Select and the ratings is only given out at the Sieger show, and the number 1 dog is VA1 is the Sieger and the top bitch VA1 for the year is the Siegerin. These dogs will be heavily bred to and usually there are only a dozen or less dogs given the rating of VA. 

V is excellent, and sometimes that will have a number V26, V1, that is the dog's rating in the class. 

SG and so forth. 

It will list titles, like SchH1 or IPO1, and for dogs in other registries LOF, Listing of France, will have BREVET etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Harley120R said:


> I just had my ole lady book me a flight to Germany. Time to catch up with a few of the cousins. Who said there are no short cuts and money can't buy everything. You know who said that? People with no money.


What is it Weird Al says on the subject?:

"If money can't buy happiness, I guess I'll have to rent it."


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

ENOUGH!! There will be more than one getting warnings tonight!! 

ADMIN Lisa


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## LifeofRiley (Oct 20, 2011)

Wow, this tangential discussion went south really quickly. Yikes! 

OP, please do post an update on your situation despite all of this. I really do hope that you and the breeder are able to come to an agreement that is fair for both parties.

And, FWIW, I think you deserve full or partial refund.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Me too, you can't not watch that when it's on! OK enough derailment of this thread...I stand by my story, the OP deserves a full refund (but should cover the cost incurred to return the dog).


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

alexg said:


> I'm sure there is wide range in quality of the dogs in Germany and there are plenty of breeders to help people to part with their money.
> You still need to know what are you doing, or need to know someone who does.


Figure I'll just buy one of those World Series Champion dogs.


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Seltzer that was a compliment" in case no one knows! Bill


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Liesje said:


> Me too, you can't not watch that when it's on! OK enough derailment of this thread...I stand by my story, the OP deserves a full refund (but should cover the cost incurred to return the dog).


Then they should change the policy of calling out breeders on the forum publicly. Only forum I know where the seller is immune from buyer feedback. Most people will only buy one dog from a particular breeder in their lifetime. Where is the incentive of the breeder to be honorable? A car dealer would be bashed and worry about their public opinion. Not dog breeders. I'm starting to disdain the dog world or is it just this site and the click on here?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's the owners of the site not wanting to spend their time and $$$ to host a venue for those sorts of complaints. It's not the purpose of this board to dispute he-said-she-said between breeders and sellers. Use BBB, Ripoff Report, or even the Pedigree Database. IMO, a public web forum is not the best place to be making decisions about which breeders to use so is not the best place for complaints and disputes. The majority of the sub-forums here are not related to breeding or purchasing dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Harley120R said:


> Then they should change the policy of calling out breeders on the forum publicly. Only forum I know where the seller is immune from buyer feedback. Most people will only buy one dog from a particular breeder in their lifetime. Where is the incentive of the breeder to be honorable? A car dealer would be bashed and worry about their public opinion. Not dog breeders. I'm starting to disdain the dog world or is it just this site and the click on here?


In general, there are two sides to each story, and this site really doesn't want to get in the middle between buyer and purchaser disputes. That's down in the rules. 

Also, the buyer's reputation is not at stake, the breeder's is. There is no GermanShepherds.com court that will send out investigators and verify claims against the breeder. So they do not allow it over the open forum. 

Some of us do sell more than one dog to the same people. Repeat customers are the best. But someone else said that most sell locally, and if you are selling locally, your name will get circulated. 

Negative feedback in every form flows faster and spreads we wider.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Liesje said:


> It's the owners of the site not wanting to spend their time and $$$ to host a venue for those sorts of complaints. It's not the purpose of this board to dispute he-said-she-said between breeders and sellers. Use BBB, Ripoff Report, or even the Pedigree Database. IMO, a public web forum is not the best place to be making decisions about which breeders to use so is not the best place for complaints and disputes. The majority of the sub-forums here are not related to breeding or purchasing dogs.


Then bad recommendations shouldn't be allowed either. Can I sue the host site if I get a bad recommendation? I hear your explanation but if you have ever ventured out of the puppy world you know it is bogus. Extremely bogus. A breeder is going to sue because his pups suck and was called out on it? Good luck selling another pup. Pups are property, let's not forget. If you said the car I sold you was lame, I'd make it right before you could bash me. Me thinks breeders be supporting this site with money. Money talks. I know that. Love of the breed my donkey. It's huge business.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

guess I missed all the nastiness.

Breeders are not supporting this site with money, it is a privately owned forum which has it's own set of rules. Simple, you don't like them, there are other forums out there where you can bash away and get your fix.

I agree with Lies. You want a good dog, do your homework, do background checks, get the names of previous puppy buyers, get the names of those puppies that are now adults. Educate yourself.

I've had 5 german shepherds in my adult life, and haven't had a breeder issue nor a terminal health issue with any of them. 

I think this thread needs to go back on topic or start one of your own/


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I forgot to mention that I feel the OP deserves a full refund, not a partial, a full refund.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

doesn't matter what i think about the refund, i will defer to the breeders opinion on the board. that being said, you walk away with out a contract, you take your chances.


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## No228 (Jan 2, 2014)

I've been following along (well... sort of!), but I've been waiting to check back in in hopes that I would have had a reply from the breeder by this point. I still do not have a response to my e-mail, which I plan to re-send later today on the off-chance that it wasn't received when I initially sent it a few days ago.


With regard to why I chose to immediately return the puppy to the breeder versus keeping the pup and attempting to re-home him myself and recoup my losses... My husband and my five year old son were clearly allergic. After my husband had a scratch test confirming the allergy, they both took Benadryl and symptoms improved for both. I never even considered re-homing or "selling" the pup on my own - I have zero experience placing dogs in appropriate and reponsible homes. In addition to that, as a previous person commented, the puppy and the allergens would've had to have been confined to an area of my home - in my case, the only option would be the basement - which would not be fair to the puppy, or either of my sons who wouldn't understand why they weren't allowed to play with him (I have an older son as well, who had no allergy symptoms around the pup and was particularly devastated when we returned him). Had I kept the puppy in an attempt to re-home him on my own or with the breeders help, it would have resulted in a pup who was isolated and unsocialized for the period of time it took to re-home him. 

We do have proof that my husband is allergic - the initial scratch test was performed by a very good friend of ours who happens to be a doctor (not an allergist), and he recommended following up with the allergist who saw my husband after his reaction to Penicillin, which he did. I have not had my son tested as he is only five... 

Finally, I do have my reasons for not finalizing talk of a refund prior to driving 500+ miles to the breeder and then turning around for the 500+ miles home. I prefer not to discuss my reasons as it would give information about the breeder and the breeder's situation that could be used to identify them. I know that this creates curiosity and skepticism, but I genuinely believe that this situation is an isolated incident and this breeder is otherwise reputable and has well-bred dogs, which is why I'm hesitant to give up any information that could identify the breeder on a public forum and expose them to scrutiny in any way. I hope that's understandable, and I apologize if I'm being controversial. While I (and others) may believe that it's wrong for the breeder to keep my money, re-home the dog and profit from him twice, that in no way means I'm willing to damage the breeder's reputation. 

Thanks again for the comments and support. I really do appreciate it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks for the update. I think you've handled the situation with maturity, hopefully the breeder will do the same.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Harley120R said:


> I'm not buying from a breeder that isn't confident enough to know what his pup is going to turn out to be.



Missed alot on this thread!!!! 


No one can tell 100% what a pup will turn out to be...they can tell what the potential is...and what type of home should be best suited for the pup...I have put pups in pet homes and they have gone on to do sport and multiple SchH/IPO3s, and put pups into homes where the buyers seem to be gung ho on training and titles and have them return the dog 1-2 years later due to family issues - one of those I am training right now....

A show line breeder judges his puppies on potential for winning structure in the show ring....a working line breeder on potential for type of sport....

Limited is not JUST to protect the kennel name....it is to protect the puppy from being dumped into a less than stellar breeding operation...people die, people get divorced, lose their jobs....one of mine ended up in a kennel of a big name trainer where owner left the dog for training and then lost job/divorced etc...just handed the trainer the papers and I did not know about it...he asked me to sign off (without titles or x-rays) so he could see the dog to someone who wanted a stud dog...I refused, then he asked me to buy the dog back for a big $$$$ amount - green dog ready to title - I tried to get someone to buy the dog, but by the time I got it all done, the dog had been sold as a PPD.....well - at least he is with someone who can afford to buy that kind of dog and not in a kennel run being used to pump out mediocre pups.

Limited is used to protect the dog in my usage. Period. I have right of first refusal, prefer if the dog cannot be kept by the purchaser to have it returned....babies, wife afraid of dogs, neighbor problems, too much dog, divorce...whatever - they can come back and I will find a suitable situation. Some I have rebought and some were just returned with no expectations of money back.

Lee


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lies, and a suggestion..Maybe instead of email, send them a certified letter which they have to sign for..


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Second Diane's suggestion.

And kudo's to you for the way you are handling the situation.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I applaud your decision to return the pup to the breeder. Pet people (& I am one) are rarely well situated to responsibly screen prospective homes & place pups. Statistically, each additional homing makes a dog less likely to 'succeed' & more likely to be abandoned to a shelter & wind up pts. You've put the welfare of that little guy first. It's wonderful to see that happen.

I think you're due a refund & I sincerely hope that the breeder eventually agrees. 

I'm very, very sorry the pup couldn't work for you. That must have been heartbreaking for your family, especially the children.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I think the OP has handled the situation with grace and responsibility. Things happen in people's lives that change their circumstances and sometimes they are overwhelmed. Perhaps, and hopefully, the breeder will eventually deal with this if such is the case at this point in her life and this is truly an isolated occurrence.

Lee


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