# Now it's Malinios On the Way Out.....



## Gwenhwyfair

Remember how many predicted the demise of the GSD, at least as a working dog, because some military/police in the U.S. and worldwide were switching to the Malinois.

Apparently the breed is now experiencing the same woes that beset GSDs in being bred for extremes. 

I had a couple of friends predict this and also state that Malis aren't - weren't necessarily the best dog for all LE applications. 

According to the links I've read on FB it's also happening in the U.S. and Canada, Sweden and elsewhere.

Norway has put the brakes on malinios all together.

Translated from Norweigen. Article linked below.




> The breed malinois will not be tested for approval as a police dog in the future. The Norwegian Police University College ( PHS ) determined. Police Directorate is now investigating adverse events associated malinois , and there are pending investigations that PHS paused the mental testing of dogs.
> 
> In a letter to the police districts writes PHS that the decision is effective with immediate effect. Now fear however representative for Dog Service in Oslo, Anders Hjerthén , it can have very serious consequences for the dog preparedness
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> Some countries have chosen to cut out to use it, including Denmark . In Sweden underway a process around that


Politihøgskolen stopper testing av viktig politihunderase - Politiforum


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## 9mmmac

Ya, it's unfortunate that dogs go through "cool" phases. Hopefully they won't get hijacked by the criminal elements that use American Staffordshire Terriers nowdays. 

I'll stick with my GSD TYVM. 

So if Maligators aren't the answer, then will the GSD's make a resurgence? I'm guessing the (insert bad trigger word here) of the Malis made them unsuitable for public facing applications. 

I've observed some real working Malis, and I wouldn't touch them with a 10 ft. pole. I have tremendous respect for them, the jobs they do and the humans who work with them- and I ain't cut from that cloth.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I have to say 9mmmac, That's one honest to the point post!


:thumbup:


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## MineAreWorkingline

I would love to hear a few details, and from what country, this part originated: "adverse events associated malinois".


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## MadLab

If you use chrome you can translate the articles into english(ish)

Norway

Hunden Norge ikke kunne miste - Politiforum
Politihøgskolen stopper testing av viktig politihunderase - Politiforum

The 2 incidents were a Mal in '06 biting an officers childs friend. Dog left in crate in own home, while PO out, kid lets dog out. It's called the 'Pelle" case

Other one was Mal biting a handler or some one looking after kennel.

From the article which is not translated properly it seems like they only have 30 police dogs and 15 are Mals. 

I don't think this is the start of the fall at all of the Mal lol.

There are bigger issues in these parts of Europe at the moment that politicians need to think about.


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## MadLab

Same case I think

Norway girl mauled by off-duty police dog - The Local


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## RubenZ

The bad thing is Mallis are rising fast in popularity in the craigslist markets. Everyone seems to be selling them as "working line dogs" and these are just backyard breeders selling them for 200$


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## mycobraracr

This goes along with the thread I started a week or two ago. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/police-k-9/614042-drive-hectic-behavior-nerve.html


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## DutchKarin

I don't get it. Has not much to do with the dog being a mal. In my mind any K9 trained for apprehension should NEVER be available to anyone unless the handler is there and in control. The girl getting mauled was totally the handler's fault. This could easily happen with any other breed of dog if the dog has that training. Biting the handler...? Read David Winner's blog on Fama the *&*^hole Bomb Dog about coming up the leash. Fama is a GSD and those of us who know her story love her. I agree with Mycobraracr... it is the training and the selection of genetics. (P.S. I miss David's posts). Norway can ban the breed... but that is sort of a misplaced responsibility I think.


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## Gwenhwyfair

First it starts anecdotally.

Then in progresses to a trend.

I've been hearing a lot of anecdotal stories about mals being too sharp and biting when they shouldn't bite, biting people they shouldn't bite. In a nut shell. Happened to a local PD last summer, a police K9 mal put the officer in the hospital requiring knee surgery.

A police K9 trainer commented on this forum a couple years ago they were having problems with the mals coming up the leash too often.

Finally I saw this article put out on FB by a Mali breeder who said, we have a problem folks.

Now it's turning into a trend.

The problem is, ultimately, the mals were thought to be 'it', 'the' dog, 'the' fix for all the perceived (IMO) flaws and downfalls of the GSDs. There is no easy quick fix, hop to the next breed and it will all be better. Rinse, repeat....


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## Slamdunc

Any animal with teeth can bite. To think that Malinois will not be used for Police or MWD's is silly. They are different than GSD's, but I know of plenty of GSD's that have bitten handlers, owners, children, etc. The vast majority of GSD's that bite people, bite them in the butt out of fear. 

As the owner of any dog you have a responsibility to secure your dog and not allow it to bite inappropriately. As a K-9 handler, your liability and responsibility is even greater. You are held to a higher standard and rightfully so. 

When more GSD's are bred and available with the right mix of working traits, drives and temperament then and only then will we see more GSD's as Police and MWD's. There are great GSD's out there that can do the job, but most get sold to sport folks or pet homes. 

I've owned and trained GSD's since the 80's. I have HOT trained a few from pups to SchH 3. I've owned some high drive dogs, GSL and WGWL. I've owned some handler aggressive dogs and I was part of the problem. We all live and learn and now I do things differently and handle these dogs differently. GSD's are not immune to handler aggression or coming up the leash, just like any breed can. Boomer, my current Patrol dog is an outstanding GSD. A once in a lifetime dog. A super Patrol and Narcotics dog, would have been a better IPO dog. I raised him from a pup and he is no joke. A novice handler would have had huge problems with him. He is exactly the dog that you don't let kids or adults handle or have out at parties, and he is not a Malinois, he is a GSD. 

To speak in generalizations, Malinois are more reactive and can be quicker to bite. You don't work them like you would a GSD. IME, in the East Coast, Mals, Mal X and Dutch Shepherds are consistently gaining popularity as LE and MWd's. It will not change any time soon. I still see some very nice GSD's working and being purchased and trained as LE. I am involved in the training of Police K-9's as part of my job. I was training with several departments in the past two weeks and worked a bunch of dogs myself. I am training a new dog myself, so for the next 4 months my job once again will be primarily training. I am constantly observing and evaluating dogs and handlers. When I train, I am always watching dogs and how they are handled, how they respond and how they perform. Dogs are individuals and there is no perfect dog. In my constant "reading" of dogs and their behavior, temperament and reactions, I have the ability to compare dogs in similar situations. Some of these situations are extremely intense and stressful on the dogs by design. I see "dogs" that perform exceptionally well, some that need help and some that fail. I can not say that one breed is far superior than another. But, comparing dogs to dogs, I see a lot of Malinois and Malinois X's doing a great job. I also see some very nice GSD's. 

The issues that I see with GSD's are high prey, lacking defensive and being slower to react and not intense enough. I should be clear, in my area we want dogs that will engage a bad guy with intensity. I want dogs that can bring some serious aggression, while being clear headed and under control. I often pass on many dogs that just lack the aggression and "civilness" that we want. I then see other PD's form neighboring states buy these dogs. They will certify them as patrol dogs, but many of those dogs would not bite a biscuit. I worry for the safety of their handlers and it concerns me. But, that is probably all the dog that those PD's want and can handle. Last year I went to large vendor to test dogs. We explained what we wanted and the vendor had 40+ dogs for sale as patrol prospects. Not wanting to test 40 dogs, we said "bring out your best 7 dogs for us." The vendor brought out 2 GSD's and 5 Malinois or Dutch Shepherd mixes. I watched another agency test dogs and the vendor told me he was only offering them GSD's. He said they didn't want or couldn't handle the dogs he was showing us. We purchased a 10 month old DS, a GSD was tied for 2nd place with a Malinois. 

To say that a breed is doomed because a few people got bit is inaccurate. Plenty of people have been bitten by other breeds including GSD's and Chi's. To say that Malinois are losing favor with PD's is really inaccurate. Sure, some PD's don't want dogs that really bite. They need the lab in GSD clothing that we see so often. Most breeders of true working GSD's do not sell their dogs to vendors in the US. They generally have no problem selling their pups to their own clientele. Most pet owners are not visiting vendors and testing and selecting dogs in the $6-8K price range. 

I have owned GSD's since the 80's and I will always own GSD's for sport and companions. But, I will work the dog that I feel will do the best job for me and has the drives and traits that I like and want. I will also test and select the best dogs for my department regardless of breed or color.


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## Muskeg

What Jim said. Our department here is all malis or dutchies and the dogs get the job done. To say the malinois is going out of favor is simply wrong.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's not wrong to say something when there is evidence that *it is* happening.

Whether you agree with *why* it's happening is a different matter.




Muskeg said:


> What Jim said. Our department here is all malis or dutchies and the dogs get the job done. To say the malinois is going out of favor is simply wrong.


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## Muskeg

But where is the evidence that it is happening? Norway is a tiny country, with very low crime rates. Hardly comparable to any major city PD in the US.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...



Gwenhwyfair said:


> *Remember how many predicted the demise of the GSD, at least as a working dog*, because some military/police in the U.S. and worldwide were switching to the Malinois.
> 
> <snipped>


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## Gwenhwyfair

Where does it say that it's ONLY in Norway?



Muskeg said:


> But where is the evidence that it is happening? Norway is a tiny country, with very low crime rates. Hardly comparable to any major city PD in the US.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I don't read a lot in that forum. Sorry for the repost! 

Your observations and concerns match that of the *mali breeder* on whose page I found the article just yesterday, btw.




mycobraracr said:


> This goes along with the thread I started a week or two ago.
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/police-k-9/614042-drive-hectic-behavior-nerve.html


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## DutchKarin

But where is the evidence that this is happening? You say it is but that is not enough for me, I have no idea who you are and what your experience is. You say it is on FB but that doesn't mean a lot. I actually doubt that Norway will ban the dogs. But then I'm a skeptic. One Malinois breeder on FB is not a lot of data points. Again, the problems you site... attacking a child or coming up the leash at a handler has little to do with breed itself and more to do with the selection of a dog for LE or military and what they need to do their jobs well, then training and what they are training for, then the handler's responsibility to manage this dog with other's safety in mind . You can see this in the high drive GSDs in LE too. Again, think of David Winner and Fama (I'm pretty sure you were around for his contribution to this forum)... Fama is and was a tough MWD. He had his hands full, there were bites on him and others in his company and he took responsibility and ...and she saved many people in Afghanistan because of who she is/was and her talents. And now that he has her in retirement, I believe he made implications that he still has a responsibility to keep her and others safe by managing her. Maybe it is less the dog and more the irresponsibility of those who choose those dogs and don't take them seriously or bother to adjust what they do for that particular individual. I'll give you that. And I'll give you that there are a lot of crap breeders... in any breed. And while I'm not in LE, I am in SAR and the number of dutchies and mals are increasing although the field is still dominated by labs, goldens and GSD.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I outlined it in my first post.

Inadvertently there's more supporting information in Jeremy's thread which I had not seen until I followed the link he provided here.

Here's the thing though, if you don't want to believe it no amount of evidence will change your mind.

I am fine with that.


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## Gwenhwyfair

What I find interesting was one article written in a German Magazine about one German police department switching to malinios was put forth as the beginning of the end of the working GSD.

Now *more* then one country is officially reviewing the use of malinios, fundamentally based on the concerns outlined in Jeremy's thread, and it's much ado about nothing. 

Like I said, I find that really interesting and perplexing.

Other then that I think Jeremy's thread covers the *whys* well, including people who are/work with/train for LE K9s sharing views that don't agree with each other.....


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## Nigel

I believe both our county and city police K-9 units use primarily gsds if not all gsds, last I looked anyways. I thought one of the draws for mals was cost?


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## MadLab

> if you don't want to believe it no amount of evidence will change your mind.


Is that your way of saying there is no credible evidence to support your opinion?


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yes, but there's more to it. Check out Jeremy's thread, it is discussed in detail there.




Nigel said:


> I believe both our county and city police K-9 units use primarily gsds if not all gsds, last I looked anyways. I thought one of the draws for mals was cost?


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## Slamdunc

Ok, first off as long as the AKC show line people stay away from the Malinois and Dutch Shepherd those dogs will be preserved as a working breed. As long as we have breeders that breed for working ability and not looks, color, conformation and the ability to run in circles we will have good working dogs. Thankfully, the Mali and Dutch Shepherds are not on the SL breeders radar. 

There is a lot of misinformation being touted in "Jeremy's thread." Not by Jeremy. One poster would like you believe that all Police Dogs must be Lassie like, need to be petted and coddled by everyone they meet and never show any signs of aggression to a handler or anyone else, except a really bad man. Then know how to do so with as little force as possible, actually walking beside the bad guy is even ok. Because that is how it was 30 years ago……

Yes, when it comes to price there are more suitable Malinois and Malinois X GSD crosses available from Europe. In the $6K - 8K price range, the average price for a green dual purpose patrol prospect, you will see more Mals for sale than GSD's. You will still see GSD's not but like I did 6, 7, or 8 years ago. 

Some PD's still want GSD's and that is fine, but many more want good working dogs with the right drives and right temperament, in the 6-7K range that dog will be a Malinois or a Mali X. The really good GSD's are sold for more. 

9 years ago every dog in our patrol unit was a GSD, now we have two GSD's the rest are Malinois, X's and Dutch Shepherds. The GSD's as they retire are being replaced by Mals, X or DS by a factor of 4 or 5 to 1. I know of other agencies with large K-9 units, around 20 dogs who will no longer select GSD's, they have had great success with the other dogs and are "sold" on Malis', X's or DS. 

This is a "hot topic" and I can only speak for the K-9 units in my area and in my state. I go to a statewide K-9 seminar twice a year and see lots of dogs. I'm sure in other states things may be different. I would prefer to work a GSD, if he had the drives and temperament of Boomer. That is very rare and getting even rarer. 

It is an age old debate like Ford vs Chevy. A Chevy Tahoe is a really nice truck, so is a Ford Explorer. Both are sold as Police vehicles, my PD has both. I don't want a CHevy Tahoe, I like my Ford Interceptor. The Tahoe is $20K more, but I like the size and handling of the Ford over the Chevy. The Tahoe, IMO is too big and doesn't handle as well. I have seen some K-9 guys that only want Tahoes and hate the Fords. To each his own, for my needs the Ford Interceptor SUV is outstanding. I've got my PD switching over to them. It is personal preference, I prefer vanilla ice cream. I also prefer dogs that work, simple as that.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Honestly, I would not have started this thread had I read Jeremy's thread first. I didn't see it until he linked it here. 

That thread covered the different points of view except the article he also linked there, it wasn't delved into.

AKC SL people are breeding and showing the malis. They aren't the bad guys.

Reading through that thread and Lou's comments as well it sounds like temperament is the problem, not the breed(s). A temperament problem that is affecting the malis as well, to the point that several countries are revisiting their suitability as police K9s working amongst civilians. 

I found that article linked on a Mali breeder page too, the breeder said, no excuses, we have a problem.


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## DutchKarin

So, one Malinois breeder says "we have a problem" on the internet. Norway (what other several countries... you keep saying that... do you have a source?) according to one journalist might be reconsidering Malinois in their forces. And AKC show people are not the bad guys.

I think we just speak different languages.


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## Slamdunc

*Reading through that thread and Lou's comments as well it sounds like temperament is the problem, not the breed(s). A temperament problem that is affecting the malis as well, to the point that several countries are revisiting their suitability as police K9s working amongst civilians*. 


I have great difficulty taking anyone seriously that advocates teaching a dog to sit with a leash jerk and E collar stimulation as part of their system. I find it much easier and more reliable to use other methods to train my dogs. 

Any dog can have temperament issues, regardless of breed. Dogs with temperament or nerve issues should not be Police, MWD's or service dogs. Not everyone is capable of handling a strong, high drive dog, not every K-9 Handler is either. Handlers and owners need to be trained and educated to own or work a high drive dog. Some dogs make great Police K-9's but aren't the greatest as pets. In all reality, with the added liability of working and handling a Police K-9 it should not be treated as a pet. 

I never said that AKC SL breeders where the bad guys, but when you breed for color and structure and lose working ability, you do the breed a disservice. Look at labs, spaniels and any other popular breed that is shown regularly, the winning dogs rarely can work well or as the breed was designed to work. I don't want to turn this into a SL vs WL issue, it is a breeding issue. It is about maintaining the working ability of the GSD. Breeders that breed "working line" dogs but do not train, test and title their own dogs are part of the problem, IMHO. Breeders who sell their so called "working line" pups based on the accomplishments of dogs 2, 3 or 4 generations back, but have never worked or titled a dog of their own breeding are part of the problem I am speaking to the issue of why the GSD is losing prominence to other working breeds for Police and MWD's. If you think that it is not happening, you are not seeing what I am. I have my finger on the pulse of Police and MWD's and what the trends are becoming.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Go back to my first post and read it, carefully. How many countries are mentioned, in the article alone. Hint they are within the translated quote.

Here's the thing you didn't see those countries written in my first post cited by the article probably because you breezed through it shaking your head saying no way.

I could list more points of data but I strongly suspect you would dismiss them all. "Only one country" "only one journalist" "only one breeder" "only one thread" ....except they aren't just one of anything that's just your way of saying this can't be.

You don't want beleive it fine.

I honestly don't care. I thought this was interesting in the context of other discussions we've had here in the past. I still think it's interesting but not enough to spend time trying to change your mind about it.







DutchKarin said:


> So, one Malinois breeder says "we have a problem" on the internet. Norway (what other several countries... you keep saying that... do you have a source?) according to one journalist might be reconsidering Malinois in their forces. And AKC show people are not the bad guys.
> 
> I think we just speak different languages.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Jim,

I'm not going to get between you and Lou except to say he's not an outsider to the LE community.



> Ok, first off as long as the AKC show line people stay away from the Malinois and Dutch Shepherd those dogs will be preserved as a working breed. As long as we have breeders that breed for working ability and not looks, color, conformation and the ability to run in circles we will have good working dogs. Thankfully, the Mali and Dutch Shepherds are not on the SL breeders radar.


But there are AKC people breeding and showing malis.

The problem with your statement above is you lay responsibility for the problems with working dogs at the show breeders door.

I don't agree with that because they don't control the entire breed and therefore cannot be destroying the working qualities of dogs. They aren't out there forcing other breeders to breed for show only.

Dog breeding is driven by the free market, demand, not the breeders themselves.

SL people get scapegoated, when in fact they are supplying the dogs most people want as pets.


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## yuriy

Slamdunc said:


> I prefer vanilla ice cream.


You had me until that point, but that's just crossing the line.


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## MadLab

GWENHYFAIR quoted, 



> How many countries are mentioned, in the article alone.


3 Mam, and the article lists 1 child attacked by unattended police dog and one handler bitten. (Just maybe the child getting bitten moved PC politicians and media to action.)



> you didn't see those countries written in my first post cited by the article probably because you breezed through it shaking your head saying no way.


Are you doubting people intelligence to read a simple post like yours?? And are you saying a piece of an article translated by google into broken english is evidence that we must bow down too?? Even when it is so insubstantial. Please...



> I could list more points of data but I strongly suspect you would dismiss them all.


What is a point of data? Seriously, any data would be welcome here so if you have it please post, otherwise your just bluffing.

I sincerely think nobody wants to hide from the truth, but sometimes the truth is hard to fathom and people want to see some hard evidence before they go making up there minds. It is better to question a story sometimes than swallow it whole. Maybe it is your vague way to say what you mean that people don't understand. You have a hunch and are making out like it is the reality and are trying to dismiss people who question you.


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## MadLab

SlanDunc said



> I have great difficulty taking anyone seriously that advocates teaching a dog to sit with a leash jerk and E collar stimulation as part of their system. I find it much easier and more reliable to use other methods to train my dogs.


Lets not question Lous theories now that he is banned and can't defend himself. Hopefully it is a time out rather than a ban. You weren't into talking theory when he questioned you. Might have been a bit ott but a bit of drama is good sometimes.


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## Clay Hill

As a gundog trainer, new GSD owner, and lover of all things working dog, I'm a member of many breed forums. The same holds true for all of them. Some threads just end up working lines vs show lines. Fact is, it's both that do damage to breeds and both that are amazing advacate's and do amazing work preserving the breed of choice. Irresponsible showbreeders as well as pet breeders breed for the extreme in looks and conformation and hold that higher than all standards and at times ignoring standards all together to get what they deem desirable. Show breeders catch far more criticism at times mainly because the damage caused by these irresponsible breeders is physically noticeable. Now working breeders, irresponsible ones breed for extremes as well forgetting standard and purpose attempting to one up the competition in the games. This goes unseen by most general public until a movie is made and everyone wants this new "great dog" as seen on screen. Overall both types of irresponsible breeders are responsible for putting opinion over standard and damaging the breed. 
All that being said let's not forget the many great breeders both show and working that work hard maintaining and improving the gene pool. Not for profit or fame in the games but pure love for ones chosen breed. Those breeders are out there. 
The irresponsible ones on both sides will never look with judgment in the mirror, this is up to both communities both show and worker to do this within their own community and not across lines. This only damages the breeds further. 

My 2 cents from a newbie to both GSD's and this forum.


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## Slamdunc

MadLab said:


> SlanDunc said
> 
> 
> 
> Lets not question Lous theories now that he is banned and can't defend himself. Hopefully it is a time out rather than a ban. You weren't into talking theory when he questioned you. Might have been a bit ott but a bit of drama is good sometimes.


Fair enough. I'm always into talking about about training and technique, just not into banging my head against my keyboard. :laugh: I would rather debate politics and who will be the next POTUS with Trump, Clinton, Sanders, Christy, Cruz and Rubio while stuck in an elevator, far less futile. 

As I said, and I sincerely mean it, if there was a question asked of me that someone actually wanted an answer to, or my opinion, I will gladly respond. Gwenhyfair brought up the other thread, trust me there is a lot I wanted to respond to on that thread, but just didn't feel it was worth it. Sometimes, it is better to read and move on.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Holy cow. I ignored your first attempt at baiting for a reason, so now you kick it up a notch just as I knew you would.

It has *nothing* to do with intelligence. The whys and wherefores are WAY off topic so I'll leave it at that.

I know you are trying to make it appear that I'm insulting DutchKaren in the hopes you can discredit me and appeal to emotions of others. Go ahead. Knock yourself out.

That doesn't work on this forum. 

Most of the people on this forum have thick enough skins, just as I do. 




MadLab said:


> GWENHYFAIR quoted,
> 
> 
> 
> 3 Mam, and the article lists 1 child attacked by unattended police dog and one handler bitten. (Just maybe the child getting bitten moved PC politici
> 
> 
> 
> Are you doubting people intelligence to read a simple post like yours?? And are you saying a piece of an article translated by google into broken english is evidence that we must bow down too?? Even when it is so insubstantial. Please...
> 
> 
> 
> What is a point of data? Seriously, any data would be welcome here so if you have it please post, otherwise your just bluffing.
> 
> I sincerely think nobody wants to hide from the truth, but sometimes the truth is hard to fathom and people want to see some hard evidence before they go making up there minds. It is better to question a story sometimes than swallow it whole. Maybe it is your vague way to say what you mean that people don't understand. You have a hunch and are making out like it is the reality and are trying to dismiss people who question you.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Actually Jeremy linked it in this thread, so technically he brought it up. . This thread really is a duplicate as I didn't see it until he linked it here. 





Slamdunc said:


> Fair enough. I'm always into talking about about training and technique, just not into banging my head against my keyboard. :laugh: I would rather debate politics and who will be the next POTUS with Trump, Clinton, Sanders, Christy, Cruz and Rubio while stuck in an elevator, far less futile.
> 
> As I said, and I sincerely mean it, if there was a question asked of me that someone actually wanted an answer to, or my opinion, I will gladly respond. Gwenhyfair brought up the other thread, trust me there is a lot I wanted to respond to on that thread, but just didn't feel it was worth it. Sometimes, it is better to read and move on.


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## Gwenhwyfair

This is true. What ultimately drives these different niches in the lines is demand though. It's been said by others and myself that demand for certain types of dogs drives the extremes. It's not really the breeders driving it.

There's even arguments within the GSD working lines about prey vs defense or civil aggression. If you are interested search for a thread called "Prey Monkey". 

At the end of the day there is always competition and demand driving the extremes, including that of LE K9s.



Clay Hill said:


> As a gundog trainer, new GSD owner, and lover of all things working dog, I'm a member of many breed forums. The same holds true for all of them. Some threads just end up working lines vs show lines. Fact is, it's both that do damage to breeds and both that are amazing advacate's and do amazing work preserving the breed of choice. Irresponsible showbreeders as well as pet breeders breed for the extreme in looks and conformation and hold that higher than all standards and at times ignoring standards all together to get what they deem desirable. Show breeders catch far more criticism at times mainly because the damage caused by these irresponsible breeders is physically noticeable. Now working breeders, irresponsible ones breed for extremes as well forgetting standard and purpose attempting to one up the competition in the games. This goes unseen by most general public until a movie is made and everyone wants this new "great dog" as seen on screen. Overall both types of irresponsible breeders are responsible for putting opinion over standard and damaging the breed.
> All that being said let's not forget the many great breeders both show and working that work hard maintaining and improving the gene pool. Not for profit or fame in the games but pure love for ones chosen breed. Those breeders are out there.
> The irresponsible ones on both sides will never look with judgment in the mirror, this is up to both communities both show and worker to do this within their own community and not across lines. This only damages the breeds further.
> 
> My 2 cents from a newbie to both GSD's and this forum.


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## MadLab

> Holy cow. I ignored your first attempt at baiting for a reason,


What you did was post a post sarcastically calling me a genius and then deleted it within the 10 minutes. I don't consider that an ignore. 



> I could list more points of data but I strongly suspect you would dismiss them all.


Please do. Or just pretend that the data exists.


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## Slamdunc

Since, this thread was about the demise of the Malinois as a working breed do the extremes of the breed and a few isolated incidents. I have no issues with SL breeders that work to produce a healthy animal with great conformation. I have owned ASL's, WGSL's and even an AWGSL GSD. I have also owned a white GSD, and several WGWL and Czech lines with WGWL's. I've owned a few GSD's over the years and loved them all. I am a GSD guy and always will be. I will always have a GSD for a pet, companion and to do sport, whether it is agility or IPO. GSD's are my breed and have been for a long time. I know some excellent SL breeders that I would be happy to have a dog from, I really love a Black / red GSD, I think they are gorgeous. I know many WL breeders that I absolutely would have a dog form their breeding. I know some so called "WL" breeders that I would never take a dog from unless it was to rescue and foster it. 

There are many GSD breeders doing a great job and producing excellent dogs, many are on this forum. I run from the ones that claim they are preserving the "old style" dogs or are selling dogs to "save" the breed. I am not knocking GSD breeders that work at producing dogs with a goal in mind, whether it is conformation or working ability. Breeders with a vision and a plan are what is needed, tangible results speak for themselves. 

While there are many that breed excellent dogs, many that would be super Police dogs, they are generally not available to PD's. Those breeders are highly sought after and the pups are placed, generally before the litter is whelped. In the US, it is rare to take and pup and raise it for a Police K-9, I've done it with Boomer. I only know of a couple of other handlers that have done that. I knew the pedigree, the breeder and what type of dog would be produced by this breeding. I was fortunate to get the exact GSD that I wanted and he turned out super. The breeder had a plan, I had a plan and it all worked out. 

I test and evaluate dogs for my PD and others, and this thread is about the supposed decline of the Malinois. As you can guess, when it comes to testing, selecting and evaluating a potential LE K-9 prospect, I have high standards and expectations. in the past to find one dog, I have tested 40 dogs to find the best one that I feel will do an outstanding job with his handler. Would some of the others work, sure they would be fine. Would many not be up to my standards, most definitely. If I am spending my cities money and selecting a dog that one day may save it's handler's life, I believe I have a responsibility to be thorough and select the best dog available. If that means passing on one vendor and driving 8 hours to the next, you can bet I will do it. For the next 7 or 8 years that dog will be working day in and day, keeping his handler, other Officers and the citizens safe. I would feel I did a poor job and embarrassed for a handler with a dog that I believe is mediocre. There is just to much at stake. I train with other PD's and see guys come out with nice, super social dogs, that have medium to low drives and really are not up to the job. I see the looks on handlers faces when they bring out a dog that barely wants to find narcotics on a vehicle search on a hot day. I decoy for other PD's and see some dogs that want to fold like a lawn chair and my heart sinks. I can not imagine what it is like to go to work every day wondering if your dog is going to do it's job? I have been spoiled over the years with a dog that just brings it every time he gets out of the car. Whether to track and apprehend a suspect or a missing person through a swamp, or be driven to search a car on 120 degree asphalt on a 100 degree day. With that drive, desire to work and aggression comes a trade off, great working ability but wound kinda tight. Not the dog you take to the family picnic, not the dog you let people pet, a dog you need to be highly vigilant with. I'll take the trade off, for me it's worth it. Officers know when our dogs show up, good things happen. People get found, drugs are located and Officer safety is much higher. 

That is why a Police K-9 needs to be a highly driven, clear headed, strong nerved, social to a point, confident animal. There are plenty of GSD's like this, but I see far more Malinois, X's and DS with the higher drives needed for a very demanding job. These dogs are Police K-9's first and pets second and sometimes not the best pets. It is a trade off. That is why I don't see the Malinois going anywhere anytime soon. 

For a working dog, I now have a DS. For a pet, companion and sport I will always have a GSD. I am excited about my new dog, he's no Boomer, but then few are.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I did put a question mark icon in the title, for a reason.

As far as "isolated incidents", that's debatable Jim.

The threshold for what is isolated and what is a trend is relative and subjective.

In some countries that treshold has been crossed.

Also, and you've admitted this yourself in the past, not all police departments are created equal and you wouldn't know about the Mali incident that put an officer in the hospital in one or our local small PDs last summer.

Or about another small department down the road that had malis and now no longer has dogs at all. Too much liability and cost, yes even with malis, is what the officer told me.

I think it's becoming a problem with malis consistent enough that people who are involved in LE and the breed are concerned. 

That's not an unreasonable conclusion on my part. Of course people can say I'm wrong if they want but I've seen, heard, read enough evidence to agree with those authorities who disagree with you Jim.

Fwiw. I'm sorry that Boomer is retiring. Clearly based on your videos and what you've shared about him he truly is exceptional. I wish him a happy healthy long retirement with you.


----------



## Slamdunc

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I did put a question mark icon in the title, for a reason.
> 
> As far as "isolated incidents", that's debatable Jim.
> 
> The threshold for what is isolated and what is a trend is relative and subjective.
> 
> In some countries that treshold has been crossed.
> 
> Also, and you've admitted this yourself in the past, not all police departments are created equal and you wouldn't know about the Mali incident that put an officer in the hospital in one or our local small PDs last summer.
> 
> Or about another small department down the road that had malis and now no longer has dogs at all. Too much liability and cost, yes even with malis, is what the officer told me.
> 
> I think it's becoming a problem with malis consistent enough that people who are involved in LE and the breed are concerned.
> 
> That's not an unreasonable conclusion on my part. Of course people can say I'm wrong if they want but I've seen, heard, read enough evidence to agree with those authorities who disagree with you Jim.
> 
> Fwiw. I'm sorry that Boomer is retiring. Clearly based on your videos and what you've shared about him he truly is exceptional. I wish him a happy healthy long retirement with you.


Thanks for the kind words about Boomer. To be honest, Boomer with the wrong handler would do some serious damage. I have made many hospital visits to get pictures and updates on suspects that he has apprehended and foolishly decided to punch or kick him. He has also tagged a cop or two. 

We can disagree, that is fine. IME, more PD's are worried about the lack of working ability in many GSD's offered for sale that is why they are switching. You need to keep an open mind and realize that there are thousands of Mali's doing a great job as LE and MWD's. 

I do agree that there is a problem with many small departments lacking resources, expertise and training to properly handle a K-9. You can not train a Malinois or a DS as if it was a GSD. They are more reactive and can be less forgiving. A small PD that lacks knowledgeable handlers and resources, probably shouldn't have Malinois, maybe a GSD is a better fit. 

I have my opinions based on doing the job today, working and training dogs from scratch for my PD. I have also worked Boomer on the SWAT team for the past 7 years. That is a role that most dogs can not do. It requires a certain type of dog and temperament. The two other GSD's on my PD will never be SWAT dogs, they just don't have it. We have 3 other dogs, Mali, Mali X GSD and DS that are our SWAT dogs. 

Working and training LE dogs comes with some risk, one risk is getting bit. I was bit last Wednesday in the hand while decoying for another agencies dog. I was told later "he's a hand biter." Good info to have while wearing a "competition suit" with no way to bring your hands in. We did another scenario with 3 decoys fighting one dog, like a bar room brawl. Very intense, very stressful for the dog and another guy got bit in the left hand. I thought that was funny as we both sat around bleeding. It happens, I went right back to work decoying once the bleeding stopped, the other guy, not so much he was done. 

Handler aggression is a problem and not limited to Malinois. I try to select dogs that are not handler aggressive, as they do not bite harder, run faster or work any better than a dog that is not HA. I do not like it, I don't think it's cool, it's not an ego boost to wear a dog like a fur coat for me. We have had some HA GSD's in our unit in the past and often it is a handling or training issue. As I type this I am getting ready to head out and work "Boru." HA was one of the reasons that he was available to me. I was told, he needs one, strong handler. I have see the issue and the reactiveness first hand. 2 weeks of bonding and modifying my approach and it is working. You simply have to be smart, stearn and realize that it is not a GSD on the other end of the leash. I think I will get it all worked out, a novice handler would probably get bit a lot. You are not going to hammer this dog into compliance, he's tough and won't take it. 

You can not always blame the dog or the breed for defending itself against harsh treatment, that is what tough dogs do. Especially, with someone that they do not know, have not bonded with or simply do not trust or respect.


----------



## Stonevintage

Slamdunc said:


> When more GSD's are bred and available with the right mix of working traits, drives and temperament then and only then will we see more GSD's as Police and MWD's. There are great GSD's out there that can do the job, but most get sold to sport folks or pet homes.



One only needs to look to the GSD with all it's current temperament and health issues to see the future of the Malinois Breed. They just haven't been "used and abused" enough yet to totally shatter health, temperament and appearance as much as the GSD. 

If you breed for certain extreme traits to satisfy demand, other desirable traits will be lost. But, that seems to be ok because the demand is there and the money is there.... and that cycle won't stop until the breed has been used up and changed so much it will take decades to correct. 

A well rounded dog cannot compete because there are no extremes in a well rounded dog. Would the GSD of 30-40 years ago that served in LE or the military be considered inadequate today? Probably. Why? Because the expectations have changed and extremes are now the norm. 

What would show judges do 30-40 years ago if a top winner of today was in their ring with show dogs of that era?

Do we have better dogs today? Are we taking the breed at it's most balanced and holding that as most desirable? Is the demand on the breeders to produce more extreme dogs likely to decrease?

I'm all for a well balanced GSD but I need one that can compete and excel in the show ring. I'm all for it but I need one that can excel in agility and sports, I'm all for it but I need one with a good bite that will be very aggressive but a sweetheart with little kids..... bla, bla, bla 

So, what are the right mix of working traits, drives and temperament? When what used to be acceptable is no longer good enough and it seems that the sacrifice of health or temperament are acceptable losses to get the extreme.

Which camp will be the first to step away from extremes and concentrate efforts on a more well rounded dog?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, and there in lies the problem a lot more small depts. around, a lot of handlers that are green to working dogs too. Add a dog into the mix that is more reactive and less forgiving and it's bound to increase the problem. I find it telling that the dept. one town over from me dropped the program entirely and their last dogs were malis. 

How many incidents does it take, nationwide, for a red flag to be raised?

How many countries rethinking these dogs constitutes enough of a trend?

In the U.S. it'll probably take a number of expensive law suits to raise awareness which is really unfortunate way of doing things. It ultimately increases the costs and tax burden on all of us. 

BTW- getting bit while decoying doesn't count.  I got nailed good by my (errr WGSL...) dog playing tug with him. I didn't laugh though. I said, OUCH! and then cursed myself for being too dang slow. 






Slamdunc said:


> Thanks for the kind words about Boomer. To be honest, Boomer with the wrong handler would do some serious damage. I have made many hospital visits to get pictures and updates on suspects that he has apprehended and foolishly decided to punch or kick him. He has also tagged a cop or two.
> 
> We can disagree, that is fine. IME, more PD's are worried about the lack of working ability in many GSD's offered for sale that is why they are switching. You need to keep an open mind and realize that there are thousands of Mali's doing a great job as LE and MWD's.
> 
> *I do agree that there is a problem with many small departments lacking resources, expertise and training to properly handle a K-9. You can not train a Malinois or a DS as if it was a GSD. They are more reactive and can be less forgiving. A small PD that lacks knowledgeable handlers and resources, probably shouldn't have Malinois, maybe a GSD is a better fit.
> *
> I have my opinions based on doing the job today, working and training dogs from scratch for my PD. I have also worked Boomer on the SWAT team for the past 7 years. That is a role that most dogs can not do. It requires a certain type of dog and temperament. The two other GSD's on my PD will never be SWAT dogs, they just don't have it. We have 3 other dogs, Mali, Mali X GSD and DS that are our SWAT dogs.
> 
> Working and training LE dogs comes with some risk, one risk is getting bit. I was bit last Wednesday in the hand while decoying for another agencies dog. I was told later "he's a hand biter." Good info to have while wearing a "competition suit" with no way to bring your hands in. We did another scenario with 3 decoys fighting one dog, like a bar room brawl. Very intense, very stressful for the dog and another guy got bit in the left hand. I thought that was funny as we both sat around bleeding. It happens, I went right back to work decoying once the bleeding stopped, the other guy, not so much he was done.
> 
> Handler aggression is a problem and not limited to Malinois. I try to select dogs that are not handler aggressive, as they do not bite harder, run faster or work any better than a dog that is not HA. I do not like it, I don't think it's cool, it's not an ego boost to wear a dog like a fur coat for me. We have had some HA GSD's in our unit in the past and often it is a handling or training issue. As I type this I am getting ready to head out and work "Boru." HA was one of the reasons that he was available to me. I was told, he needs one, strong handler. I have see the issue and the reactiveness first hand. 2 weeks of bonding and modifying my approach and it is working. You simply have to be smart, stearn and realize that it is not a GSD on the other end of the leash. I think I will get it all worked out, a novice handler would probably get bit a lot. You are not going to hammer this dog into compliance, he's tough and won't take it.
> 
> You can not always blame the dog or the breed for defending itself against harsh treatment, that is what tough dogs do. Especially, with someone that they do not know, have not bonded with or simply do not trust or respect.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, I agree with you there and I believe Dani mentioned it as well in the other thread. I think that's part of the mix, a change in expectations too.



Stonevintage said:


> <snipped>
> 
> So, what are the right mix of working traits, drives and temperament? When what used to be acceptable is no longer good enough and it seems that the sacrifice of health or temperament are acceptable losses to get the extreme.
> 
> Which camp will be the first to step away from extremes and concentrate efforts on a more well rounded dog?


----------



## Slamdunc

Gwenhyfair,
Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. I do not know where you are from, but I see LE K-9's first hand on a large scale. Departments do away with specialty units for many reasons, one being economics. If a small PD has one dog and the handler and dog are really not successful, then the PD may end the program. With out knowing the details or the PD, I simply can not speculate. There are many reasons that a PD may shut down their K-9 program, the least of them is a problem dog. If they were committed to the program, they would replace the dog with one more suitable. 

It seems we are discussing things in a vague way, I would be more inclined to discuss this based on facts and actual events that can be linked too. A few random incidents shouldn't tarnish a breed or a tool that overall is doing a fantastic job.


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## Gwenhwyfair

My point is that the malis didn't help keep the K9 unit going (in the context of being less expensive then GSDs ). In this case it's not speculation, the officer I spoke with about it in person said specifically cost and liability.

Again, what constitutes a 'few' is subjective and we don't have a lot of specifics in the U.S. because there's not a cohesive tracking/reporting mechanism(?).

I put a question mark icon at the beginning of this because I didn't expect people to agree with me. Some will, some won't.

For me, the evidence I've read, seen, heard over the last few years is enough to draw the conclusion that there's a problem with malis. Also, I'm really careful to give more weight to statements made by people who are your peers, who are involved in and train in and around LE and malis. Even your statements.

That of course doesn't mean ALL malis are going to be a problem, that goes without saying....and....leads to.....

In blue, then that should hold true for GSDs as well. 



Slamdunc said:


> Gwenhyfair,
> Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. I do not know where you are from, but I see LE K-9's first hand on a large scale. Departments do away with specialty units for many reasons, one being economics. If a small PD has one dog and the handler and dog are really not successful, then the PD may end the program. With out knowing the details or the PD, I simply can not speculate. There are many reasons that a PD may shut down their K-9 program, the least of them is a problem dog. If they were committed to the program, they would replace the dog with one more suitable.
> 
> It seems we are discussing things in a vague way, I would be more inclined to discuss this based on facts and actual events that can be linked too. A *few random incidents shouldn't tarnish a breed* or a tool that overall is doing a fantastic job.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I did put a question mark icon in the title, for a reason.
> 
> As far as "isolated incidents", that's debatable Jim.
> 
> The threshold for what is isolated and what is a trend is relative and subjective.
> 
> In some countries that treshold has been crossed.
> 
> Also, and you've admitted this yourself in the past, not all police departments are created equal and you wouldn't know about the Mali incident that put an officer in the hospital in one or our local small PDs last summer.
> 
> Or about another small department down the road that had malis and now no longer has dogs at all. Too much liability and cost, yes even with malis, is what the officer told me.
> 
> I think it's becoming a problem with malis consistent enough that people who are involved in LE and the breed are concerned.
> 
> That's not an unreasonable conclusion on my part. Of course people can say I'm wrong if they want but I've seen, heard, read enough evidence to agree with those authorities who disagree with you Jim.
> 
> Fwiw. I'm sorry that Boomer is retiring. Clearly based on your videos and what you've shared about him he truly is exceptional. I wish him a happy healthy long retirement with you.


I questioned this when it was first posted that there were only two isolated incidents. One skeptical person's research to support a point does not make it all there is to the problem. What are the chances of there being more incidents that simply aren't referenced?

I have read of quite a few incidents in the US regarding K9s in the US the last couple of years, complete with actual photos of the dog, not stock pictures. The majority that make it to the headlines that I have seen have been Mals, or Mal crosses such as the one where the K9 chewed off its handler's 4 year old son's foot less than a year ago.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In closing, thank you for the respectful discussion Jim.

I appreciate it.

It's a beautiful day out, time to go train!! 

Hey there MAWL! Have a good Saturday with that pack of yours!


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## MadLab

Here's a look at some Norwegian GSD's. It also states they have 12 police dogs! 

The first dog looks the most all over the place, almost goes for the police officers leg getting off the bike and later tries to jump over the bike after his muzzle.

Dogs look like they just want treats and there toys.

What do people think of this?

Would you leave one of these animals in an unlocked crate with your young children?


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## Slamdunc

Those are nice GSD's in the video. Nicely trained and a nice demo. I like the handlers too.  


*Would you leave one of these animals in an unlocked crate with your young children?* 

I generally do not put young children in a crate, if I do put the kids in a crate it is always locked. :laugh:

I see high prey / toy drive. I didn't see any defense or anything that tells me that these dogs would be aggressive with anyone. It appears to me at least, that these are young, new dogs. I agree, they really want their treats and toys.

More importantly, how did you embed that video into your post?


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## Dalko43

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *Remember how many predicted the demise of the GSD, at least as a working dog, because some military/police in the U.S. and worldwide were switching to the Malinois.*





9mmmac said:


> So if Maligators aren't the answer, t*hen will the GSD's make a resurgence? *I'm guessing the (insert bad trigger word here) of the Malis made them unsuitable for public facing applications.


Not to burst anyone's bubble here, but the GSD is still widely used on the military side of things (can't speak to LE side, though I've seen a few there as well) for many different applications, including aggressor situations. These aren't the same GSD's you're average joe is buying at Petsmart, as they're either imported from Europe or bought from a dedicated working line breeder stateside.

The Belgian malinois might be used as Mil/LE K9's in greater numbers nowadays than they were in the past, but the GSD is still used as well and I've heard of no talk to ditch the breed.


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## Blitzkrieg1

The breed is in no danger.

I know of the malinois breeder that inspired this post and have seen some of the dogs she produces and breeds too in various stages of development.
She is an excellent example of why you shouldn't be breeding these dogs if you lack the ability to properly evaluate what is good and what is not. Soft dogs with lackluster nerve and more focus on structure and pigment then I have ever seen in a Mal breeder. Also if that wasn't bad enough she shows CKC. 
It seems like she is on a little crusade since some people questioned her program and her dogs. Out to prove that the people who have been doing it for generations and got the dogs where they are now are all wrong. The usual bs about versatility to justify why the dogs are lackluster.

If you want a pretty Mal that you do some dock diving or something low key like that with look no farther then this program.

Ironically this type of breeder is a threat to the breed as a whole and definitely has muddied the water locally with a lot of low quality pups.


----------



## Slamdunc

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The breed is in no danger.
> 
> I know of the malinois breeder that inspired this post and have seen some of the dogs she produces and breeds too in various stages of development.
> *She is an excellent example of why you shouldn't be breeding these dogs if you lack the ability to properly evaluate what is good and what is not. Soft dogs with lackluster nerve and more focus on structure and pigment then I have ever seen in a Mal breeder. Also if that wasn't bad enough she shows CKC. *
> It seems like she is on a little crusade since some people questioned her program and her dogs. Out to prove that the people who have been doing it for generations and got the dogs where they are now are all wrong. The usual bs about versatility to justify why the dogs are lackluster.
> 
> If you want a pretty Mal that you do some dock diving or something low key like that with look no farther then this program.
> 
> *Ironically this type of breeder is a threat to the breed as a whole and definitely has muddied the water locally with a lot of low quality pups*.


This type of breeder is a threat to any breed. This is exactly what has happened to the GSD and why we have such a split in the breed. Ironically, I said earlier in this thread that as long as the SL breeders stay away from the Malinois the breed would be safe. This is exactly the type of breeder that I was talking about. 

Neither breed is in danger of being on the way out. There is plenty of demand for GSD's and Malinois for many different reasons. Malinois, DS and Mali X's are absolutely gaining popularity in the LE world. They are also gaining popularity in the Tier 1 SF world. This has been going on for several years and is not about to stop or change. There are still many GSD's working as LE and MWD's and there will be for the foreseeable future. As I said earlier, there are some depts that should stick with GSD's. With that said, I have also seen plenty of handler aggressive and highly reactive GSD's that will bite a handler or stranger in a heart beat. It is hard to paint a breed with such a wide brush stroke, especially if your experience with all of the breeds working in these capacities is limited. I think a little more than a few reports, anecdotal evidence or facebook is needed to come to a full conclusion.


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## MadLab

> how did you embed that video into your post?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxzTRfVgFJ0

Won't work, 

Cut the https:// off and the address is

www (dot) youtube.com/watch?v=GxzTRfVgFJ0

=






You can hit preview to see if it works


----------



## Slamdunc

:thumbup: Thanks!


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Slamdunc said:


> This type of breeder is a threat to any breed. This is exactly what has happened to the GSD and why we have such a split in the breed. Ironically, I said earlier in this thread that as long as the SL breeders stay away from the Malinois the breed would be safe. This is exactly the type of breeder that I was talking about.
> 
> Neither breed is in danger of being on the way out. There is plenty of demand for GSD's and Malinois for many different reasons. Malinois, DS and Mali X's are absolutely gaining popularity in the LE world. They are also gaining popularity in the Tier 1 SF world. This has been going on for several years and is not about to stop or change. There are still many GSD's working as LE and MWD's and there will be for the foreseeable future. As I said earlier, there are some depts that should stick with GSD's. With that said, I have also seen plenty of handler aggressive and highly reactive GSD's that will bite a handler or stranger in a heart beat. It is hard to paint a breed with such a wide brush stroke, especially if your experience with all of the breeds working in these capacities is limited. I think a little more than a few reports, anecdotal evidence or facebook is needed to come to a full conclusion.


Agreed. 
Where a lot of people run into issues with the Mals is relationship which is often termed as handler sensitivity and managing capping more drive then most people know how to handle.
Not the easiest dogs for new handlers and downright dangerous if you have a high calibre dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

I lot of the kerfluffery on this board is just that.

I get tired of hearing about how terrible the German Shepherd breed is here on a German Shepherd forum.

So it's interesting to read the posts when the shoe is on the other foot. 






Dalko43 said:


> *Not to burst anyone's bubble here, but the GSD is still widely used on the military side of things* (can't speak to LE side, though I've seen a few there as well) for many different applications, including aggressor situations. These aren't the same GSD's you're average joe is buying at Petsmart, as they're either imported from Europe or bought from a dedicated working line breeder stateside.
> 
> The Belgian malinois might be used as Mil/LE K9's in greater numbers nowadays than they were in the past, but the GSD is still used as well and I've heard of no talk to ditch the breed.


----------



## Stonevintage

Our LE GSD's are heroes in my small city. One dog had 3 "contacts" just last week.

One was a woman that led police on a high speed chase. When they finally cornered her in a parking lot - she wouldn't get out of the car she had stolen and would not respond to officers in any way. The dog was latched on to her arm for a full 2 minutes and she was so high she didn't even register the dog firmly attached to her arm....

Our community is 100% behind LE GSD's.


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## Dalko43

Gwenhwyfair said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I lot of the kerfluffery on this board is just that.
> 
> I get tired of hearing about how terrible the German Shepherd breed is here on a German Shepherd forum.
> 
> So it's interesting to read the posts when the shoe is on the other foot.


I think the reason the GSD gets that "terrible" reputation in certain forums is because of the bad breeding practices that have dominated the American GSD and, arguably, have degraded its working ability. As a result, just about anyone who is serious about getting a solid, healthy, working GSD (Police, Military, dog sports, protection work) gets one from overseas or buys from a stateside breeder who brings in European lines. 

The good, working GSD's are out there, but because of lax breeding standards here in America, the perception of the breed overall has fallen (at least in the view of dog fanciers and handlers).

As for the Belgian Malinois, I've seen a few in action; they're great working dogs, no doubt about it. But I equate their rise in popularity to a trendsetting activity like Crossfit. Crossfit is new, looks unique and cool, has a different vibe, but the reality is that it incorporates a whole bunch of routines/exercises that have been around for quite some time. The Malinois is used to perform a lot of the same functions that a good, healthy, working-line GSD can perform just as well, if not better. The main difference of a Malinois (from a working GSD) is that it is smaller and more agile (in general) and perhaps a bit more reward-driven. This means that groups like special forces, are more inclined to use them to enhance their mobility and competitive dog sport handlers are inclined to use them because a fast, highly animated dog is a lot more fun to watch than a slower, calmer one.

For most working functions, either a GSD or a Malinois will do just fine. For those few, specific roles that require increased agility and lighter weight, I can see the value of having a Malinois versus a GSD. A lot of people foolishly think that because the Navy Seals use a certain piece of gear (or a dog) that it then must be the best available and they need to have it. But they're doing that on the basis of assuming they share the same gear/dog requirements as Navy Seals (or world class dog sport handlers); they don't. Navy Seals, and other special forces, use the Malinois for their own reasons, and many other units/groups employ GSD's, among other breeds, for their own reasons. Anyone who thinks that one dog is definitively better than the other letting their myopia get the better of them.


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## Slamdunc

"Kerfluffery" Funny stuff, for sure. 

Dalko43,
You make a good point and for the most part I agree with you. There are no doubt good working GSD's out there, I own two currently. If you know where to go and what breeders to seek out you can find very nice working GSD's. 20 years ago the WGSL dogs made good working dogs and were used here in the US as Police K-9's. You will not see many today being selected as Police K-9's. There are many reasons for this. 

You are correct that Belgian Malinois make excellent working dogs. Their rise in popularity is due to demand. Simple "Supply and Demand." They work, they are agile, they are healthy and they have drive. Price and features make them an excellent working dog for MWD's and LE K-9's. This doesn't mean that a GSD can't do it, they certainly can. But, with the current demand for working dogs worldwide, the malinois is filling the need. It is certainly not a trend or fad as those not in the know would think. 

For what I do at work, I am beginning to prefer Mal X GSD crosses and Mals over GSD's. It is just my myopic view of what is needed to accomplish the tasks that we need to do each day. I still see some nice GSD's, but it is easier to find a Mali in the $7,000 price range than a GSD. 

I have my hands on a lot of dogs, I train regularly with several other large agencies and even SEAL team dog handlers and trainers. I think we do share many of the same requirements as my SEAL team friends, when it comes to dogs. Our SWAT dogs must function on a high level and not every patrol dog can do it. The main difference between our dogs and theirs, besides budget and going to Holland to select dogs, is their dogs must work with multiple handlers. Ours only have to work with one. My current dog that I am training came to me from a SF unit because the dog wasn't adapting well to multiple handlers. He has nailed 5 people so far in training. He was tested and selected in Holland as 1 of 3 out of 45 dogs for a SF team. They paid double what we pay and he is something else. He is a Belgian Malinois / Dutch Shepherd mix and is not small by any means. He is as big or bigger than my GSD. Just a little lighter. 

Yup, I want the same type of dog for my handlers as the Tier 1 SF teams want. I want the best dog I can get to put on the street and keep that handler safe. I want speed, agility, aggression, high drives, clear headed and balanced. I also want the same drives in my sport dogs, so the only thing holding my dog back from high level competition is me. What I want, choose and select is not for everyone and really shouldn't be. It fits my needs and what I like and want in a dog. My new dog is absolutely a good example of this, he is hard to handle and would be a terrible match for most handlers. 

On a bright note to add into all the kerfluffery, I saw a GSD being worked by SF guys last week. A very nice dog, the first GSD I have seen there in 5 years or more. Perhaps, there is hope, or is that the odd GSD in mali clothing? 

Like I have said before, I am a GSD guy and will always have GSD's as pets and companions and for sport. For work, knowing that I will probably not find a GSD as good as my current dog, I have switched to a DS X BM cross of a thing. This dog brings it, and brings it hard and fast. At the end of the day or the end of my leash that is what i want going to work every night. It is definitely more work to manage, different to handle, but when I need it, he is bringing it. The last thing I want is to exit my car and wonder if my dog has it, and many K9 handlers do worry.


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc,
I wasn't implying that the Malinois was a fad that would pass. I think the Malinois has definitely solidified its role as working dog, and short of some very bad breeding, that's not going to change. My point was that a lot of people want the Malinois for work or sport because of the trends set in certain military and sporting environments. The reality is, a GSD or Malinois will equally suffice for *most *situations.

My other point is that just because a special forces unit uses a method or sets a trend, doesn't mean everyone else should follow suite. We can talk about the numerous weapon calibers and setups that SEALS and other groups have tried out and discontinued to illustrate that. 

You may "*want*" the same type of dog that a SF team uses, but just because SF has a Malinois doesn't necessarily mean that you *need* one as well. You've likely done your own mission analysis to determine which dog is best suited to your needs/requirements. It doesn't mean that your dog (which ever you choose to employ) is the "best;" it means that you've got a dog that meets your specific needs.

SF using Belgian Malinois =/= the "best" dog. The "best" dog is the one that meets the needs/requirements of the owner, trainer, or handler. I think a lot of dog sport handlers and even police departments have automatically assumed that the Belgian Malinois is the better dog and thus should be used because of the trends set by SF, among others. That was the trending or "fad" I was referring to; people see a top tier unit employ something and so they follow suit without really doing their own mission analysis. 

The working GSD is alive and well and, the minor differences in temperament, size, and agility aside, is just as capable as the Belgian Malinois when it comes to working/training. There are plenty of American breeders who provide good, stable working GSD's, so the supply is there. And with all the GSD's I've seen walking patrol, standing guard, conducting sweeps and missions, the demand hasn't gone away either.


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## Slamdunc

Ahhh, we are going off on a tangent. I should probably make my point clearer if I can.

*You may "want" the same type of dog that a SF team uses, but just because SF has a Malinois doesn't necessarily mean that you need one as well. You've likely done your own mission analysis to determine which dog is best suited to your needs/requirements. It doesn't mean that your dog (which ever you choose to employ) is the "best;" it means that you've got a dog that meets your specific needs.*

When I say that I want the same type of dog as my SF buddies and trainers, I mean the same temperament, the same drives, the same clear headed, social enough to work around other operators, strong, confident and balanced. It is the same "type" of dog, not a breed type, or a fad type, but a "working type." A dog that is comfortable on all surfaces and all environments. A dog that can unleash serious aggression when needed and switch to detection work just as quickly. That is the same "type" of dog that they like and I like. I see more of this "type" lately in the Mali X GSD. Actually, in the KNPV line dogs. 

The working GSD is alive, but not in the numbers it was 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. That is my opinion, based on testing and selecting dogs for over 10 years for LE work and being in involved in IPO for quite a bit longer. 

We are discussing apples and oranges, I have said many times that there are still good GSD's out there. I have said that I will always own one, I will always be able to find one. 

The supply is not really there though for MWD and LE K-9's, compared to the amount of BM's, DS and X's available that also get the job done equally as well. This is just my experience and opinion, from a few years of working dogs on the East coast with LE and MWD's. 

I hope that more GSD breeders step up and start producing better working dogs. Yet again, supply and demand and simple economics. It is not in the best interest of most breeders, even some of the large (puppy mill) types from Czech to produce real working dogs. Simply because there customer is the pet home, that is where the money is, the demand is and how they stay afloat.  Selling the "real dogs" they advertise or the old style dogs would be disastrous for them. Most folks do not want a high drive, tough GSD or could even handle one if they had one. 

Like I said before, I am in agreement with you for the most part. I just can't get past my myopic view of what a good working dog is and the type I like. It always brings a smile to my face to see a really nice GSD Police K-9. I always ask the handler where the dog came from and make a note. I will be training a new handler in the couple of months and testing and selecting a dog for him/her. If I can find a GSD that tests better than the other dogs I test, I will certainly select it. But, I am selecting on the "type" of working dog I like and will leave my bias for GSD's out and select the best working dog I can find.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue. 

The Europeans usually don't send the best of the best. I've seen this in the Dressage world (warmbloods). The problem usually is pricing.

It's more about business then it is the dogs. After 9/11 security related market came under pressure. So prices went up. Yeah there's going to be lax breeding here, malis too, but there's no sure fire guarantee on anything coming from Europe. It would be nice if the standards here were more like in Germany/Europe but that's another topic.

It's only natural that as the malis rose in popularity they too, will and do face the same issues/problems/fate.

See Blitz's post.....

All of that is really an aside. What I find interesting is how often we hear about it here on a GSD forum and how people react when a finger is pointed at the mali. Very interesting indeed.

In red. Fair enough! 

Though I don't ever see myself owning a mali. They aren't my cup of tea, just a matter of preference.


(P.S. I saw a European import Mali performing a PSA demo couple of years ago and he was big boy....)




Dalko43 said:


> I think the reason the GSD gets that "terrible" reputation in certain forums is because of the bad breeding practices that have dominated the American GSD and, arguably, have degraded its working ability. As a result, just about anyone who is serious about getting a solid, healthy, working GSD (Police, Military, dog sports, protection work) gets one from overseas or buys from a stateside breeder who brings in European lines.
> 
> The good, working GSD's are out there, but because of lax breeding standards here in America, the perception of the breed overall has fallen (at least in the view of dog fanciers and handlers).
> 
> As for the Belgian Malinois, I've seen a few in action; they're great working dogs, no doubt about it. But I equate their rise in popularity to a trendsetting activity like Crossfit. Crossfit is new, looks unique and cool, has a different vibe, but the reality is that it incorporates a whole bunch of routines/exercises that have been around for quite some time. The Malinois is used to perform a lot of the same functions that a good, healthy, working-line GSD can perform just as well, if not better. The main difference of a Malinois (from a working GSD) is that it is smaller and more agile (in general) and perhaps a bit more reward-driven. This means that groups like special forces, are more inclined to use them to enhance their mobility and competitive dog sport handlers are inclined to use them because a fast, highly animated dog is a lot more fun to watch than a slower, calmer one.
> 
> For most working functions, either a GSD or a Malinois will do just fine. For those few, specific roles that require increased agility and lighter weight, I can see the value of having a Malinois versus a GSD. A lot of people foolishly think that because the Navy Seals use a certain piece of gear (or a dog) that it then must be the best available and they need to have it. But they're doing that on the basis of assuming they share the same gear/dog requirements as Navy Seals (or world class dog sport handlers); they don't. Navy Seals, and other special forces, use the Malinois for their own reasons, and many other units/groups employ GSD's, among other breeds, for their own reasons. *Anyone who thinks that one dog is definitively better than the other letting their myopia get the better of them*.


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## Slamdunc

Gwenhwyfair,

*All of that is really an aside. What I find interesting is how often we hear about it here on a GSD forum and how people react when a finger is pointed at the mali. Very interesting indeed*

You started the kerfluffery, with a post about Malinois on the GSD forum. LOL

Do you know of a good Malinois or other active working dog forum where this discussed?

I do agree that it would be nice if we had higher standards or some standards in the US to regulate breeding. But, that is a whole other argument or discussion. The good breeders have standards, the BYB's well, they have a back yard and a female.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In what context did you think I used the term "kerfluffery" Jim?




Slamdunc said:


> "Kerfluffery" Funny stuff, for sure.
> 
> <snipped>.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It's meant as an object lesson. 

Nothing personal.

Certainly not as a slam against police officers either.

As for Malinios forums, people have come here looking for them and apparently there aren't that many. One member pointed to a forum based out of Europe some time ago.

The GSD is far more popular. 



Slamdunc said:


> Gwenhwyfair,
> 
> *All of that is really an aside. What I find interesting is how often we hear about it here on a GSD forum and how people react when a finger is pointed at the mali. Very interesting indeed*
> 
> You started the kerfluffery, with a post about Malinois on the GSD forum. LOL
> 
> Do you know of a good Malinois or other active working dog forum where this discussed?


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## Slamdunc

In the same context you used it, I hadn't heard it before. I did get a laugh out of it. 

Yup, the GSD is more popular and hence the problem.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Actually Dalko43 did a very good job of explaining away the 'kerfluffery' in the context in which I used it.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I see you added this. Yup, it's territory that's been covered.

It would be a step in the right direction, no matter the breed really.

Having said that, it reminds me of the saying about dog trainers. The only way to get 2 dog trainers to agree is when they point out what the 3rd dog trainer is doing wrong. 

Same with breeders.  



Slamdunc said:


> <snipped>
> 
> I do agree that it would be nice if we had higher standards or some standards in the US to regulate breeding. But, that is a whole other argument or discussion. The good breeders have standards, the BYB's well, they have a back yard and a female.


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc said:


> When I say that I want the same type of dog as my SF buddies and trainers, I mean the same temperament, the same drives, the same clear headed, social enough to work around other operators, strong, confident and balanced. It is the same "type" of dog, not a breed type, or a fad type, but a "working type." A dog that is comfortable on all surfaces and all environments. A dog that can unleash serious aggression when needed and switch to detection work just as quickly. That is the same "type" of dog that they like and I like. * I see more of this "type" lately in the Mali X GSD. Actually, in the KNPV line dogs. *


Well if you think the ideal "working" dog is a Mali x GSD mix, then you can't really say that either dog is of better working caliber than the other. Obviously the breeder was catering to a demand and saw a need to breed a dog that had certain traits from both breeds. By the way, the traits you emphasize (strong, confident, balanced) are all traits that the traditional working GSD's are known for, perhaps more so than the Malinois. 




Slamdunc said:


> The working GSD is alive, but not in the numbers it was 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. That is my opinion, based on testing and selecting dogs for over 10 years for LE work and being in involved in IPO for quite a bit longer.


I think the availability of working GSD's hasn't really changed. What has changed are trainer's/handler's expectations and the *overall* quality of the GSD breed, which I agree has suffered horribly here in America. The perception of the GSD has suffered as a result, but the working GSD is still there, you just need to find the right breeder (that's true for any breed, but becomes more of an issue as the breed gains in popularity). 




Slamdunc said:


> The supply is not really there though for MWD and LE K-9's, compared to the amount of BM's, DS and X's available that also get the job done equally as well. This is just my experience and opinion, from a few years of working dogs on the East coast with LE and MWD's.


If anyone on this forum was stationed or ever worked at Lackland AFB, their input would come in handy. As far as I could tell from my time in service, the GSD still constitutes a healthy portion of the MWD #'s, and I never really got the impression that supply was an issue. 




Slamdunc said:


> *I hope that more GSD breeders step up and start producing better working dogs. * Yet again, supply and demand and simple economics. It is not in the best interest of most breeders, even some of the large (puppy mill) types from Czech to produce real working dogs. Simply because there customer is the pet home, that is where the money is, the demand is and how they stay afloat. Selling the "real dogs" they advertise or the old style dogs would be disastrous for them. Most folks do not want a high drive, tough GSD or could even handle one if they had one.
> 
> Like I said before, I am in agreement with you for the most part. I just can't get past my myopic view of what a good working dog is and the type I like. It always brings a smile to my face to see a really nice GSD Police K-9. I always ask the handler where the dog came from and make a note. I will be training a new handler in the couple of months and testing and selecting a dog for him/her. If I can find a GSD that tests better than the other dogs I test, I will certainly select it. But, I am selecting on the "type" of working dog I like and will leave my bias for GSD's out and select the best working dog I can find.


Again, I think you're discussing the *perception* of the GSD more than anything else. There is certainly the perception that the GSD is no longer a good working breed (or at least not as capable as the Mali), mostly because of lax and economically-motivated puppy-mill breeding (and also due to the Mali's recent gain in recognition and popularity from SF employment). The reality is there are plenty of dedicated breeders propagating the working lines and keeping true to Von Stephanitz's original vision for the breed. You have to pay a bit more (relative to a poorly-bred GSD) and do a little research, but they're there. And with the number of GSD's I see as protection dogs, sport dogs, MWD's, police K9's, I really have a hard time believing that the demand has trailed off. If anything, with so many poor-nerved, bad temperament GSD's here in America, overcrowding our rescue shelters, I would think the demand for those solid, working line GSD's is higher than ever.

For the record, I too hope that the GSD breed as a whole recovers from its current issues and I hope as well the that Mailnois never suffers the same fate. I don't want to piss off anyone here who is into showing their dog, but I am a firm believer that function should always trump form.


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## Slamdunc

Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
When I say that I want the same type of dog as my SF buddies and trainers, I mean the same temperament, the same drives, the same clear headed, social enough to work around other operators, strong, confident and balanced. It is the same "type" of dog, not a breed type, or a fad type, but a "working type." A dog that is comfortable on all surfaces and all environments. A dog that can unleash serious aggression when needed and switch to detection work just as quickly. That is the same "type" of dog that they like and I like. I see more of this "type" lately in the Mali X GSD. Actually, in the KNPV line dogs.

*Well if you think the ideal "working" dog is a Mali x GSD mix, then you can't really say that either dog is of better working caliber than the other. Obviously the breeder was catering to a demand and saw a need to breed a dog that had certain traits from both breeds. By the way, the traits you emphasize (strong, confident, balanced) are all traits that the traditional working GSD's are known for, perhaps more so than the Malinois. *

Yes, but the drives are the difference. The GSD may have been known for these traits, it is hard to still find them with these traits. With the high prey and aggression, that is what is hard to find along with balance and clear headedness. If you know of GSD's like this readily available in sufficient quantity, please let me know where to find them. 

Again, we are saying pretty much the same thing. Yes, I have no problems finding super nice GSD's for myself, there are some excellent breeders producing them. 

This thread was started about the Malinois and it falling out of favor with LE. I just do not see that happening and I hope it never does. Everything else is kerfluffery. 

One last thing, I am not discussing "perception" of the breed. I am discussing what I have seen and experienced over the past few years. No offense intended, I think you are discussing perception. I work dogs and test dogs, this is not hypothesis on my part, it's "test and not a testimonial."


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc said:


> Yes, but the drives are the difference. The GSD may have been known for these traits, it is hard to still find them with these traits. With the high prey and aggression, that is what is hard to find along with balance and clear headedness. *If you know of GSD's like this readily available in sufficient quantity, please let me know where to find them. *


Go ask Lackland's selection program where they get their GSD's.
Go ask any number of police departments where they get their GSD's.
Go ask the American kennels that produce working and protection GSD's, where they get their dogs. 
They all seem to be getting access to solid GSD lines without much of a problem.

I don't work for your department and thus I don't know what resources you have available. But the implication that capable, balanced, working GSD's are as elusive as unicorns doesn't hold much water IMHO considering how many working GSD's I've seen in MWD roles, as police K9's, or as protection and/or sport dogs. 

You yourself acknowledged that the ideal working dog would be a *Mali and GSD mix, like some of the ones used for KNPV.* Obviously those breeders had to find some solid GSD lines somewhere in order to create that mix. Right?

I realize that I am right on the cusp of turning this into a Mail vs GSD debate, which is way OT and certainly a topic I was hoping to avoid. Both breeds have great working pedigrees. SF and others might prefer a Mail over a GSD for their own reasons; it doesn't mean that a GSD (working line obviously) is any less capable of taking down a bad guy or operating under pressure.

If you have yet to come across a solid breeder who is actively training and raising working line GSD's, then I would say that your view of the GSD's working ability is based off of perception rather than reality. The reality is that there are plenty of working GSD's out there fulfilling their intended roles; a quick google search on your part and some phone calls might allow you to turn up some breeder names fairly quickly.


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## Slamdunc

Well, I think that you need to go back and read some of my posts,even the ones on this topic. 

Do you regularly train with LE, sport or MWD's? Are you in the position to test and select working dogs? What do you base your perceptions on? 

For the last time, I know plenty of breeders to get a good GSD for myself from. But, not enough to supply the demand that exists for working dogs. I was curious of when the last time you saw this plethora of outstanding working GSD's? 

To be clear, I see plenty offered for sale, but not enough with the traits and drive that I or other LE Agencies out here want. I suppose standards are what the discrepancy may be.

Again, I agree with most of what you have to say. Certainly not everything, based on current experience and having my finger on the pulse of working dogs in the SE.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Blindness is a choice. You talk to anyone that actually imports, works or trains dogs the story is the same. Sadly the truth does not change no matter how much a few keyboard warriors and pet breeders on a dog forum may wish it too.


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## Nigel

My sample size is small, but If the mals I'm seeing in my area are any indication of where the breed is heading, then yes they are in trouble. 

Those saying people will want a mal cause the Seals use them are spot on. This is the exact reason my wife's boss purchased his. It ended up being a neurotic mess. My sample size for dutchies is even smaller, only 4, but I'd be happy to have any one of them.


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## Slamdunc

Nigel said:


> My sample size is small, but If the mals I'm seeing in my area are any indication of where the breed is heading, then yes they are in trouble.
> 
> Those saying people will want a mal cause the Seals use them are spot on. This is the exact reason my wife's boss purchased his. It ended up being a neurotic mess. My sample size for dutchies is even smaller, only 4, but I'd be happy to have any one of them.


Small sample size may mean that there is a poor breeder in your area. Like any breed, if you do not know what to look for, test for or how to select, then you will be taken advantage of. I know a few GSD breeders that will gladly take advantage of a novice with tall tales and a bunch of BS. It happens in every breed as soon as they get recognition and popular. True working dogs, dogs that are bred to work, don't always make the best pets with inexperienced owners. Whether it is a GSD, Mali or DS.


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## Nigel

I don't think we have any byb mal breeders yet, but my guess is it won't be too long before one pops up. 

My wife's boss had his flown in from Seattle, a couple others I spoke with had them brought in through a local GSD breeder, not sure where he got them from. I agree with you about breeders (of any breed) willing to tell tales. Sadly one of the nice dutchies I met belongs to the byb our Czech WL came from, she'll be pumping them out soon if she's not already.


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## DutchKarin

Just a few points.... Nigel most of the dutchies in the US are out of KNPV lines which liberally cross mals and dutchies. So are technically DSx but you can think of them as a brindle colored mal. No difference.

Second, my dutch is super environmentally stable and a fun dog to work. He is a certified SAR dog (god it feels good to finally say that) and training to get his avalanche cert. Easy dog to live with. Have to be a little careful with him around other dogs. BUT he would have been a neurotic dog if I did not exercise the heck out of him, give him a job and plenty of mental exercise. But I love it and he and I work well together. However, he can get a bit pushy and destructive and adolescent when he is not worked. I do believe that most people are not willing to do what is needed for the mals and dutchies and that is when you see problems as well. 

So it may be genetics... it may be genetics and someone not ready or willing to deal with what the mal/ds needs.


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc said:


> Well, I think that you need to go back and read some of my posts,even the ones on this topic.
> 
> Do you regularly train with LE, sport or MWD's? Are you in the position to test and select working dogs? What do you base your perceptions on?
> 
> For the last time, I know plenty of breeders to get a good GSD for myself from. But, not enough to supply the demand that exists for working dogs. I was curious of when the last time you saw this plethora of outstanding working GSD's?
> 
> To be clear, I see plenty offered for sale, but not enough with the traits and drive that I or other LE Agencies out here want. I suppose standards are what the discrepancy may be.
> 
> Again, I agree with most of what you have to say. Certainly not everything, based on current experience and having my finger on the pulse of working dogs in the SE.


I've freely admitted that I have no working experience with GSD or Mali's on the LE side. I have seen a few police K9's at local training seminars and talks; all the ones I've seen are imported GSD's from Euro working lines. That's not to say that there aren't any police Belgian Malinois in my area, because I'm sure there are. My point is that if working GSD's are as hard to come by as you say they are, I don't know why I've seen so many serving in K9 units.

On the military side, I worked with MWD's extensively during deployments overseas including GSD's, Malinios, labs, ect. The slight differences in size and temperament taken into account, the GSD's and Mali's both did their job well. Like I said earlier, if I ever got into a situation where I had to jump up walls, crawl through narrow spaces, ect. I would readily take a Malinois over a GSD due to mobility considerations. As it was, my deployments were to mostly open, arid areas, so the dog's weight wasn't so much of an issue.

Also, to be clear, SF and other military units have vastly different tactical priorities from a SWAT team. I'm not saying there isn't some degree of overlap, but this idea that you want the same dog that top tier SF teams use because its the "best" dog seems indicative of group think.



Slamdunc said:


> *Yup, I want the same type of dog for my handlers as the Tier 1 SF teams want. I want the best dog I can get *to put on the street and keep that handler safe. I want speed, agility, aggression, high drives, clear headed and balanced.


It's that statement above that really motivated me to stay engaged in this OT discussion. Hopefully, police teams, including SWAT, across the nation are actually conducting their own mission analysis to determine what gear, dogs, and techniques they need rather than just trying to imitate SF....okay that's sarcasm on my part; I'm sure that most police units are avoiding that pitfall.

To extend an olive branch, I'm not a GSD vs Mali kind of guy. I admire both breeds and I love the working/herding breeds in general. I emphatically believe that these types of dogs are meant to be raised and trained for functional tasks (whether it be SAR, police-work, protection work, dog sports, ect.). And I sincerely hope that both breeds maintain their working pedigrees going into the future.


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## Muskeg

Photos: Meet Orange County's K-9s, how they're trained and what they do - The Orange County Register

This is an interesting article on police k9s. Sounds like one department favors the mali-DS type and the other GSDs. Supports what SlamDunc has been saying.

From the Article:

All of Anaheim’s K-9s are German shepherds, but the majority of Orange County police departments use Belgian Malinois because they’re leaner with a smaller bone structure, and have better health and faster speed compared to German shepherds.

Bodhy, a 7 1/2-year-old Belgian Malinois, is the epitome of a police K-9. With a loud bark, strong muscle and a mouth that would scare even the most innocent of drivers during a car stop, Bodhy once found 27 kilograms of cocaine worth $1.3 million during a car search, said his handler Huntington Beach Officer Casey Thomas.

“They’re super agile, super quick,” Thomas said. “After I saw how the Belgian Malinois performed next to a German shepherd, I knew this was the breed I wanted.”


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## Dalko43

Muskeg said:


> This is an interesting article on police k9s. Sounds like one department favors the mali-DS type and the other GSDs. Supports what SlamDunc has been saying.
> 
> From the Article:
> 
> All of Anaheim’s K-9s are German shepherds, but the majority of Orange County police departments use Belgian Malinois *because they’re leaner with a smaller bone structure, and have better health and faster speed compared to German shepherds.*


I've actually noted those distinctions (in bold) from the very beginning.

Other than that, I'm not really sure what you think the article proves or disproves. Both GSD's and Mali's are mentioned in the article.


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## Muskeg

Nope, not saying it proves or disproves anything about the workability of either breed. Just shows that different departments have various reasons for preferring one breed over the other.


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## Stonevintage

When you have to release a LE dog for a bite, why would you want one that is leaner with smaller bone structure than the GSD? Are the bad guys really able to outrun a GSD these days but not a Mal? It seems to me more weight is a positive factor when a GSD needs to take a bad guy to the ground and keep him there as needed.... 

Overall, how does the lighter weight benefit a dual or multi purpose LE dog?


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## Sabis mom

Stonevintage said:


> When you have to release a LE dog for a bite, why would you want one that is leaner with smaller bone structure than the GSD? Are the bad guys really able to outrun a GSD these days but not a Mal? It seems to me more weight is a positive factor when a GSD needs to take a bad guy to the ground and keep him there as needed....
> 
> Overall, how does the lighter weight benefit a dual or multi purpose LE dog?


 Well. I can say definitively that lifting or carrying an 85 lb dog sucks

I like watching Mals work but give me a good ol' shepherd anyday! I'll take the slower, heavier dog and be proud to do so.


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## DutchKarin

Stonevintage,
There are lots of factors that would go into taking down the bad guy. Size would be one, but muscle mass and strength and fitness another, speed and velocity of the hit, jaw strength, tenacity, commitment to holding on, quick reaction for adjusting or going in to the guy again, probably others. Keep in mind that some of the mals out there do reach into the 70 and 80 lb range these days.

I agree with Sabis mom that carrying an 85 lb dog would suck. As part of SAR work we do have to hoist or carry the dog from time to time. Glad my DS is 63 lbs in prime weight. I am imagining that SF also end up carrying the dogs more than other missions???? Maybe hence the preference for lighter weight.

I think of the mal and DS as , on balance, more intense (fire in the belly) than the GSD working lines. Of course there are individuals and outliers on both sides. But that intensity, when handled correctly (and that is a huge factor in my mind requiring a very skilled skilled handler and I don't think they are a dime a dozen) gives you a dog that is more apt to commit 1000% to his or her job at lightening speed with no questions or hesitation. Depending on your role in LE or Military that could be a great asset and a wonderful feeling. BUT it needs to be handled well. I can imagine that there are plenty of handlers in these fields that prefer the slight decrease in speed and the maybe more thoughtfulness of a GSD. 

Are there GSD in that category, of course, and I'm sure there are breeders that breed to that, but then those dogs should not be available to just anyone. We are just flooded with GSD that were bred to other standards.

Are there less intense mals and dutch. Yup.


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## Slamdunc

Dalko43,
I appreciate your Military Service and mention of the "olive branch." As I said, I agree 

You posted:

_Also, to be clear, SF and other military units have vastly different tactical priorities from a SWAT team. I'm not saying there isn't some degree of overlap, but this idea that you want the same dog that top tier SF teams use because its the "best" dog seems indicative of group think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
Yup, I want the same type of dog for my handlers as the Tier 1 SF teams want. I want the best dog I can get to put on the street and keep that handler safe. I want speed, agility, aggression, high drives, clear headed and balanced.
It's that statement above that really motivated me to stay engaged in this OT discussion. *Hopefully, police teams, including SWAT, across the nation are actually conducting their own mission analysis to determine what gear, dogs, and techniques they need rather than just trying to imitate SF....okay that's sarcasm on my part; I'm sure that most police units are avoiding that pitfall.*
_
No one is trying to imitate the SF guys, that sounded more condescending than sarcastic, but I am a fan of sarcasm. 

Ok, here's the thing that you may not realize with your limited experience nor fully understand. I speak with and train with several SF trainers regularly, the guys that test, select and train some very high level handlers and dogs. I have also worked a dog on a SWAT team for a little while. Actually, I have been working a GSD for the past 8 years, 7 on SWAT with this dog. In conversations we discuss dogs, traits, deployments and training. What they like in a dog and a dog that serves their purposes is a high drive, balanced, clear headed dog with high prey and defense. Good in all environments, strong, stable and confident. They also place a great deal of emphasis on the dog being social, with high aggression. Funny, but these are the traits that make a good SWAT dog. These are the same traits that I look for in a patrol dog prospect, except, I do not place as much emphasis on the dog being social. I like a social dog, but it is not the highest priority for me. I need the dog to be "social" and stable enough to work around other cops. 

Here is another fact, most Patrol dogs can not be SWAT dogs. It takes a very special dog to be able to be worked on the SWAT team. It is not for every patrol dog, just as every cop can be a SWAT operator. It requires a certain temperament, drive and character to handle the stress and pressure. But any SWAT dog can be a Patrol dog. It is the rarer dog that can be a dual purpose Patrol / Detection and SWAT dog. 

I also do disagree with your statements about SF and SWAT mission statements. Tactics generally change through tragedy, I know this first hand. I have adopted, stolen and use some of the same techniques that our top SF handlers use. I have brought some of them to our SWAT team. When a team has an almost unlimited research and development money, brings in world level trainers and has an unreal facility it is certainly advantageous. I am fortunate to be in close proximity and we share training locations. When it comes to dogs, training and deployment there is a lot to be learned from these guys. A covert clear with a K-9 is something we do regularly, some of the tactics do work well in our operating environment. 

Bottom line, whatever the work, a dog is a dog. But, some dogs bring a little more, have a little more and can do more. Since, I test and select our dogs from several vendors, why wouldn't I get the best dog that I can?

Attached is a pic of my current dog, who is now 10 and retiring in a couple of months. Please note this dog is a GSD. One that I bought as a 7 week old pup from an excellent breeder that produces outstanding working dogs. This is a dog that could have been a Nat'l Level IPO dog, but instead he became my dual purpose patrol SWAT K-9. I think I made the right choice. I'm a GSD guy, but I am also a working dog guy, and the dog that works best wins. Regardless of breed. color or size.


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## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> When you have to release a LE dog for a bite, why would you want one that is leaner with smaller bone structure than the GSD? Are the bad guys really able to outrun a GSD these days but not a Mal? It seems to me more weight is a positive factor when a GSD needs to take a bad guy to the ground and keep him there as needed....
> 
> Overall, how does the lighter weight benefit a dual or multi purpose LE dog?


Actually, I have clocked my 82lb GSD at 32 mph's. He was faster than most Malinois at an event we hosted. The two fastest dogs out of 40 LE K-9s were my buddies GSD at 33 and mine at 32. That was after a 3 mile run. 

But it is not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog. 

Weight has nothing to do with it. It is all about intensity and drive as DK correctly pointed out. Force = mass x speed. We have a couple of 60 lb Malinois in our unit that have no problem taking a bad guy to the ground. They have both done it many times. One of those dogs is the hardest biting dog in our unit. The dog gives 125% on every bite and apprehension. He bites far harder than some of the 80lb GSD's.


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## Stonevintage

Thank you for the perspective on this. I am a novice and have to admit that the White House thing with the Mals made me wonder if it had been 2 good sized GSD's instead of Mals - if that would have been the same outcome.

In the perspective of 2 Mals on one guy vs 2 GSD's. I've watched GSD's "work together".


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## Nigel

DutchKarin said:


> Just a few points.... Nigel most of the dutchies in the US are out of KNPV lines which liberally cross mals and dutchies. So are technically DSx but you can think of them as a brindle colored mal. No difference.
> 
> Second, my dutch is super environmentally stable and a fun dog to work. He is a certified SAR dog (god it feels good to finally say that) and training to get his avalanche cert. Easy dog to live with. Have to be a little careful with him around other dogs. BUT he would have been a neurotic dog if I did not exercise the heck out of him, give him a job and plenty of mental exercise. But I love it and he and I work well together. However, he can get a bit pushy and destructive and adolescent when he is not worked. I do believe that most people are not willing to do what is needed for the mals and dutchies and that is when you see problems as well.
> 
> So it may be genetics... it may be genetics and someone not ready or willing to deal with what the mal/ds needs.


Thanks for the explanation and congratulations on your certification! 

And I agree there is a possibility that environmental factors could be at play in at least some mals I've encountered.


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc,
I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you over who has the longer list of accomplishments. From the way you talk, I'm willing to bet that you have more experience than I in certain areas, and I have more experience than you in certain areas. BTW, "training" and "talking" with SF instructors is not the same as actually operating in that type of combat environment. SWAT's purpose is to enforce the law and protect people, albeit it's on the more kinetic end of the LE spectrum. SF, along with the other combat arms groups, have a totally different missions, ROE, and, as mentioned before, gear requirements. That's not to say that there won't be some common techniques and equipment used in both environments.

If you and your department have done your own mission analysis and determined that a Belgian Malinois is a better fit, I have no argument with that thought process. *But what you said at first was that you want the same dog as the SF groups, because you wanted the "best" dog available.* That statement seems indicative of a "monkey see monkey do" mentality in my view and shows a lack of critical thinking. Maybe I misinterpreted what you said? If so, a clarification from you on that earlier statement would be helpful.

As for the rest of the stuff said by you and others how the Belgian Malinois has more intensity, harder bites and is generally better suited to high-stress SWAT work, I see all that as more subjective than anything else. The GSD's bite has been tested and is generally considered one of the more powerful bites out there (for domesticated dogs). You can maybe show some data if you want to discuss how the Mali's bite compares. Intensity, hardness of character, drive...different people will have different opinions on what they see in a particular dog, so I don't see any point in continuing this discussion of GSD vs Mali (which is what I was trying to avoid from the get go).

Also, you have a GSD working with SWAT? Doesn't that prove my point that there are good working examples of both breeds that are suitable for the high-risk work you are talking about?


----------



## Slamdunc

I really think it would be impossible for me to clarify things any further. I tried and obviously it is clear as mud. I don't know how else to say it or clarify it any further.


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## Gwenhwyfair

IMO a very interesting discussion. 

Thank you Jim and Dalko43!


And the best way to end....with a German Shepherd that's not only drop dead gorgeous but a hero. Yeah...I'm smitten. :wub::wub::wub:


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## Dalko43

OP, the Malinois has a pretty solid reputation as a working dog and I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon, even if the show breeders get a hold of them.

As for the huge tangent this thread took, the GSD has working lines that are still widely used as well by both LE and Mil handlers. I went scrolling through NY's state police K9 lineup on their website, and I saw more GSD's than I did Mali's: https://www.troopers.ny.gov/Specialized_Services/Canine_Unit/Canine_Gallery/
Nothing scientific about my methods there, but still, if the good GSD's were as hard to find as some people claim, I'm not sure why I've seen so many being used by my local LE and military MWD units.

Both breeds are great working dogs, each in their own nuanced ways. Anyone who says Breed X is better than breed Y or that it's hard to find good working GSD is biased. There are plenty of reputable kennels in the US which focus on producing good, stable GSD's for K9 duties, protection, dog sport, ect. There are also a lot of bad kennels/breeders that produce dogs of poor health and temperament....but that kind of goes without saying for just about any breed of dog being sold/bought here in America.

SF primarily uses the Mali for reasons specific to SF (mostly due to size and mobility). It doesn't mean that the Mail is the "best" working dog out there. It also doesn't necessarily mean that SF will still be using the Mali 15 years from now. A lot of SF insist on using .45 caliber for their sidearms, while many combat groups (including SEAL's as of late) prefer 9mm sidearms. It doesn't mean that one caliber is definitively better than the other; it means that different groups have different requirements and different views on how to meet those requirements. For those unfamiliar with firearms, the 9mm vs .45 (both are pistol calibers) is a never-ending topic for debate among the firearm communities (professional and civilian); the reality is neither caliber is the "best" and each offers its own inherent pro's and con's.

The GSD vs Mali debate, which unfortunately this thread devolved into, is no different. Neither breed is inherently "better" for working duties; each works well in slightly different ways. With the proper training and relationship building, a good handler can take good working examples of either breed and accomplish even the most arduous of tasks.


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## Slamdunc

Dalko,
Why I agree in principle that it is possible to still find good working GSD's. The point is that they are not as readily available to the LE market in the price range (7-8 K) we generally pay. In that market, on the East coast at least, Working dogs with the desired traits and available for sale are malinois, dutch Shepherds and X's 2-1 over GSD's. You can agree with that or not, however it is a fact. It is not a bias on my part as I am a GSD guy and have owned GSD's since the 80's. I am biased towards dogs with the correct traits, drives and temperament for LE dogs. I do not care about breed or color. 

This thread was started to say that the Malinois is falling out of favor with the LE community, that is simply not true. I can easily find a great a working line GSD, it is easy for me, that is why I posted the picture of my dog. But, most PD's do not have the resources or network that I do. Funny, but my current K-9 that I am now training is a Belgian Malinois X Dutch Shepherd. Yes, me a guy that can easily find good GSD's for sport, and knows the breeders to go to for good GSD's, has gone to the dark side. There is a very simple reason for my choice and it is all about working ability, drive and intensity. This comes at a price that most people and K-9 handlers may not want and not a pet dog. But, when he comes out of the car he will be all business, with the drives, confidence and temperament to back it up. 

From your posts, I can tell you are a person that simply must see it to believe it. I read your thread on the working ability, actually lack there of of the King shepherd. Several knowledgeable posters commented about the lack of working ability in those "breeds." You seem to rather believe Wikipedia or a breeder's website, rather than folks that actually do the sport you were asking about. To think a King Shepherd can do Schutzhund is truly searching for that elusive unicorn. 

I realize that this is a dog forum on the internet, but there are many people on here that have a tremendous amount of experience with dogs in various venues. That is one of the things that I like about this forum in particular. While I have been around a few dogs, I consistently see folks on here that have more experience than me, or are better handlers than me and I read there posts with great interest. 

No offense intended, and I certainly hope you do not take any. We all have our opinions, mine are based on my experiences. I'm not biased, just pragmatic and very objective when it comes to dogs for LE work. I removed the rose colored glasses a long time ago.


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## Chip18

Gwenhwyfair said:


> IMO a very interesting discussion.
> 
> Thank you Jim and Dalko43!
> 
> 
> And the best way to end....with a German Shepherd that's not only drop dead gorgeous but a hero. Yeah...I'm smitten. :wub::wub::wub:


Jim ... I "have to ask ..." in light of the aborted $73000 dollar fundraising effort to have an officer keep his still "serviceable dog," is your dog going home with you without a lot of fuss?? 

I had to ask??


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## Slamdunc

Chip,
Our handlers always get the first choice of keeping their partners when they retire. If the handler can not for some reason take the dog, we will find a family in the Police Dept to take the dog for his retirement. We have handlers that have a retired dog and current dog at their home. One handler had 2 retired dogs and his current dog at his home, three patrol dogs is a handful. 

In my case, I have had Boomer since he was 7 weeks old. I raised that dog from a pup and he is my buddy. That dog will always have a place with me and I hope for a very long time. Boomer is still working and got an award the other day. I can certainly say that no one else wants Boomer as he is not the most social dog. He will not take corrections from a stranger and would be hard to place. He is still driven and a beast at 10 years old. A super easy dog for me and the perfect partner, but he does unnerve the other K-9 handlers and even Schutzhund decoys. Yes, I'm safe that he is coming with me. Also, I donated him to my PD to be my K-9, so I have no worries. The only concern I have is that Boomer is very dog aggressive and I am juggling dogs like a circus clown juggles balls. 

No fuss at all, and Boomer is still working. He hit on 3 ounces of Heroin and an oz of coke on an FBI Search Warrant the other day. The dope was hidden in a cooler hung from the rafters in the back garage. We have a clear understanding that Boomer is mine when he retires. The dog has done an exceptional job and will retire to a comfortable life hanging out with me during the day and my wife on the evenings that I work.


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## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> Chip,
> Our handlers always get the first choice of keeping their partners when they retire. If the handler can not for some reason take the dog, we will find a family in the Police Dept to take the dog for his retirement. We have handlers that have a retired dog and current dog at their home. One handler had 2 retired dogs and his current dog at his home, three patrol dogs is a handful.
> 
> In my case, I have had Boomer since he was 7 weeks old. I raised that dog from a pup and he is my buddy. That dog will always have a place with me and I hope for a very long time. Boomer is still working and got an award the other day. I can certainly say that no one else wants Boomer as he is not the most social dog. He will not take corrections from a stranger and would be hard to place. He is still driven and a beast at 10 years old. A super easy dog for me and the perfect partner, but he does unnerve the other K-9 handlers and even Schutzhund decoys. Yes, I'm safe that he is coming with me. Also, I donated him to my PD to be my K-9, so I have no worries. The only concern I have is that Boomer is very dog aggressive and I am juggling dogs like a circus clown juggles balls.
> 
> No fuss at all, and Boomer is still working. He hit on 3 ounces of Heroin and an oz of coke on an FBI Search Warrant the other day. The dope was hidden in a cooler hung from the rafters in the back garage. We have a clear understanding that Boomer is mine when he retires. The dog has done an exceptional job and will retire to a comfortable life hanging out with me during the day and my wife on the evenings that I work.


Outstanding then the only thing left for me to do is aware a Houndy for *"exceptional service"* by the two of you! :


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> Chip,
> Our handlers always get the first choice of keeping their partners when they retire. If the handler can not for some reason take the dog, we will find a family in the Police Dept to take the dog for his retirement. We have handlers that have a retired dog and current dog at their home. One handler had 2 retired dogs and his current dog at his home, three patrol dogs is a handful.
> 
> In my case, I have had Boomer since he was 7 weeks old. I raised that dog from a pup and he is my buddy. That dog will always have a place with me and I hope for a very long time. Boomer is still working and got an award the other day. I can certainly say that no one else wants Boomer as he is not the most social dog. He will not take corrections from a stranger and would be hard to place. He is still driven and a beast at 10 years old. A super easy dog for me and the perfect partner, but he does unnerve the other K-9 handlers and even Schutzhund decoys. Yes, I'm safe that he is coming with me. Also, I donated him to my PD to be my K-9, so I have no worries. * The only concern I have is that Boomer is very dog aggressive and I am juggling dogs like a circus clown juggles balls.
> *
> No fuss at all, and Boomer is still working. He hit on 3 ounces of Heroin and an oz of coke on an FBI Search Warrant the other day. The dope was hidden in a cooler hung from the rafters in the back garage. We have a clear understanding that Boomer is mine when he retires. The dog has done an exceptional job and will retire to a comfortable life hanging out with me during the day and my wife on the evenings that I work.


Where will your new partner reside?


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## Slamdunc

Chip,
HA! Great picture, thanks!

MAW,
All od our dogs reside with their handlers.

I have Boru and Boomer at my house, along with my female GSD Francesca. Francesca gets along with everyone, I just have to keep Boomer and Boru separate. We have "new rules" at my house. My wife no longer lets dogs in or outside. Currently, she has very little interaction with Boru, unless I am there to supervise. It is a bit of change, my wife used to let the dogs out in the morning, especially on my evening shifts if I was sleeping later in the morning. My wife is an early riser and starts her day around 6AM. I was pretty spoiled with the two dogs and her ability to handle Boomer and Francesca. It has only been about a month with Boru, and we are still getting to know each other. He is fine with me, but not so great with others. One nice thing about Boru is that he is not DA, but loose in the yard with Boomer, Boomer would start a fight. I have no desire to break up a dog fight between these two. My days of sleeping in are over, I have two 6' x 20' kennels set up in one area of my yard that is fenced off. I have and area that is for the dogs that is fenced with privacy fence and then the back yard area with my deck, patio and grass around the pool. That is primarily where the dogs hang out when in the yard. I can completely separate the dogs in the yard with the different fenced areas and kennels, but I don't like all the barking. So I rotate dogs, it's not that big of deal, I just can't sleep anymore in the mornings. Sleep is highly over rated anyway. 

Boomer is still working until I finish training Boru and certify him. On days when Boomer is the only dog working or the only Dual Purpose dog I take him to work. On days when we have other dogs working I take Boru and train him. I haven't put the two of them together in my truck yet, but I will probably do that next week. Boomer in the kennel and Boru in the back in a crate. I will just need to wear ear plugs as I'm sure it will be loud until I settle them down. 

One goal is to be able to take both to work, but I'm doing baby steps first. My first goal, which is coming along so far, is not getting bit. Priorities, working on the important things first.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> Chip,
> HA! Great picture, thanks!
> 
> MAW,
> All od our dogs reside with their handlers.
> 
> I have Boru and Boomer at my house, along with my female GSD Francesca. Francesca gets along with everyone, I just have to keep Boomer and Boru separate. We have "new rules" at my house. My wife no longer lets dogs in or outside. Currently, she has very little interaction with Boru, unless I am there to supervise. It is a bit of change, my wife used to let the dogs out in the morning, especially on my evening shifts if I was sleeping later in the morning. My wife is an early riser and starts her day around 6AM. I was pretty spoiled with the two dogs and her ability to handle Boomer and Francesca. It has only been about a month with Boru, and we are still getting to know each other. He is fine with me, but not so great with others. One nice thing about Boru is that he is not DA, but loose in the yard with Boomer, Boomer would start a fight. I have no desire to break up a dog fight between these two. My days of sleeping in are over, I have two 6' x 20' kennels set up in one area of my yard that is fenced off. I have and area that is for the dogs that is fenced with privacy fence and then the back yard area with my deck, patio and grass around the pool. That is primarily where the dogs hang out when in the yard. I can completely separate the dogs in the yard with the different fenced areas and kennels, but I don't like all the barking. So I rotate dogs, it's not that big of deal, I just can't sleep anymore in the mornings. Sleep is highly over rated anyway.
> 
> Boomer is still working until I finish training Boru and certify him. On days when Boomer is the only dog working or the only Dual Purpose dog I take him to work. On days when we have other dogs working I take Boru and train him. I haven't put the two of them together in my truck yet, but I will probably do that next week. Boomer in the kennel and Boru in the back in a crate. I will just need to wear ear plugs as I'm sure it will be loud until I settle them down.
> 
> One goal is to be able to take both to work, but I'm doing baby steps first. My first goal, which is coming along so far, is not getting bit. Priorities, working on the important things first.


You have four dogs listed in your signature, I thought you might be juggling five dogs. That would make a heck of a video!!!


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## Slamdunc

MAW,
When I first set that signature line up, I still had Annabelle. I added "Zeus" aka Herman, because of some obnoxious questions by a dolt on another forum that claimed a V rated SL dog couldn't be a HOT SchH 3 dog. Herman had enough drive for 3 GSD's and 2 Mali's. He was also 1/4 American SL and 3/4 WG SL. Some years ago it was easy to get SL dogs that could work and even be Patrol dogs. I had some serious offers on Herman to be a patrol dog. He would have been an awesome patrol dog. I wish I could get that dog back again as a puppy. With what I know now and what that dog taught me, he would be an outstanding dog to own. My other dogs have all benefited from the lessons that I learned from that dog. Annabelle passed away in 2013 at 13 1/2 years old, another awesome dog. 

Currently, I have Boomer who will be 10 next week, Francesca who is 14 months and Boru who is about 3 1/2. I should update that signature line.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Slamdunc said:


> MAW,
> When I first set that signature line up, I still had Annabelle. I added "Zeus" aka Herman, because of some obnoxious questions by a dolt on another forum that claimed a V rated SL dog couldn't be a HOT SchH 3 dog. Herman had enough drive for 3 GSD's and 2 Mali's. He was also 1/4 American SL and 3/4 WG SL. Some years ago it was easy to get SL dogs that could work and even be Patrol dogs. I had some serious offers on Herman to be a patrol dog. He would have been an awesome patrol dog. I wish I could get that dog back again as a puppy. With what I know now and what that dog taught me, he would be an outstanding dog to own. My other dogs have all benefited from the lessons that I learned from that dog. Annabelle passed away in 2013 at 13 1/2 years old, another awesome dog.
> 
> Currently, I have Boomer who will be 10 next week, Francesca who is 14 months and Boru who is about 3 1/2. I should update that signature line.


Sorry to hear about Annabelle. I have four WL and one WGSL. I was hoping we could exchange juggling videos. LOL! But anyhow, my WGSL is the first I have owned and I am rather surprised at his drive. I got him as a pet but might have to reconsider. A friend in Florida has an ASL that is not too shabby. I guess you never know.


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## Slamdunc

MAW,
That is a lot of dogs. I wish these two males could get along, but that is not going to happen. Yes, there are some very nice SL dogs with nice drives. I was into WGSL dogs for a number of years and even handled dogs at some of the regional and USA Sieger shows. 

Then I got into working line dogs, which I love. I figured that I did more working than showing and went to WL dogs for myself. Now, I have a brindle colored Malinois X Dutch Shepherd cross for a working dog to add to the mix. It is a big change and a big adjustment.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Who would'a thunk it. hehehe. Never judge a book by it's cover, for sure.

  :thumbup:

Very cool. 



Slamdunc said:


> MAW,
> That is a lot of dogs. I wish these two males could get along, but that is not going to happen. Yes, there are some very nice SL dogs with nice drives. *I was into WGSL dogs for a number of years and even handled dogs at some of the regional and USA Sieger shows.
> *
> Then I got into working line dogs, which I love. I figured that I did more working than showing and went to WL dogs for myself. Now, I have a brindle colored Malinois X Dutch Shepherd cross for a working dog to add to the mix. It is a big change and a big adjustment.


----------



## Slamdunc

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Who would'a thunk it. hehehe. Never judge a book by it's cover, for sure.
> 
> :thumbup:
> 
> Very cool.


Ha! I've owned a few GSD's over the years. My first GSD was a solid black American SL female. Then I had a WG X ASL dog, a beautiful solid white GSD that I rescued. Then a WGWL female from old working lines, and that was my intro into working line dogs. Now I have two WG and Czech working line dogs. Oh, I also have that brindled colored Belgian Malinois X Dutch Shepherd. 

I love dogs, I've owned dogs all my life. My breed preference is the GSD, and I especially like GSD's that work.


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## Gwenhwyfair

hehehe!

Deep into the "irony" department now. I received an informational flyer from the AKC on the "German Shepherd Dog".

Pictured near the top of the flyer is a police officer with his K9, posing next to the police car. The flyer goes on to share how the German Shepherd dog is often used in police work.

Only one problem....

You'll never guess what breed the dog was in the picture......

Yup. A Mali on the AKC GSD flyer! OY! :blush: :crazy: :laugh:


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc said:


> Dalko,
> Why I agree in principle that it is possible to still find good working GSD's. The point is that they are not as readily available to the LE market in the price range (7-8 K) we generally pay. In that market, on the East coast at least, Working dogs with the desired traits and available for sale are malinois, dutch Shepherds and X's 2-1 over GSD's. You can agree with that or not, however it is a fact. It is not a bias on my part as I am a GSD guy and have owned GSD's since the 80's. I am biased towards dogs with the correct traits, drives and temperament for LE dogs. I do not care about breed or color.
> 
> This thread was started to say that the Malinois is falling out of favor with the LE community, that is simply not true. I can easily find a great a working line GSD, it is easy for me, that is why I posted the picture of my dog. But, most PD's do not have the resources or network that I do. Funny, but my current K-9 that I am now training is a Belgian Malinois X Dutch Shepherd. Yes, me a guy that can easily find good GSD's for sport, and knows the breeders to go to for good GSD's, has gone to the dark side. There is a very simple reason for my choice and it is all about working ability, drive and intensity. This comes at a price that most people and K-9 handlers may not want and not a pet dog. But, when he comes out of the car he will be all business, with the drives, confidence and temperament to back it up.
> 
> From your posts, I can tell you are a person that simply must see it to believe it. I read your thread on the working ability, actually lack there of of the King shepherd. Several knowledgeable posters commented about the lack of working ability in those "breeds." You seem to rather believe Wikipedia or a breeder's website, rather than folks that actually do the sport you were asking about. To think a King Shepherd can do Schutzhund is truly searching for that elusive unicorn.
> 
> I realize that this is a dog forum on the internet, but there are many people on here that have a tremendous amount of experience with dogs in various venues. That is one of the things that I like about this forum in particular. While I have been around a few dogs, I consistently see folks on here that have more experience than me, or are better handlers than me and I read there posts with great interest.
> 
> No offense intended, and I certainly hope you do not take any. We all have our opinions, mine are based on my experiences. I'm not biased, just pragmatic and very objective when it comes to dogs for LE work. I removed the rose colored glasses a long time ago.


Go re-read that thread on the King Shepherd. I was asking for very specific feedback on whether there were any forum members with first-hand experience owning/training King Shepherds, specifically working ones. I recall only 1-2 people posters claiming to have even owned them, none had been used for working duties. Everyone else, by their own admission, was speaking from anecdotal experience, which is why I was skeptical of a lot of the posts that I saw.

This so-called fact you keep referring to on the Mali and Dutch Shepherds being 2x as prevalent as the GSD in working form seems open to dispute. For example, I provided a link in my earlier post showing the NY state trooper's K9 lineup (where GSD's easily outnumbered the Mali's).
And I recall seeing many more GSD's than I did Mali's in as MWD's.

But all of that is tangential to what you and I were really discussing. I don't have a problem with a team (whether it be LE or military) finding the right dog that is suited for their mission requirements...I've said as much many times over. I do have a problem with people, especially LE, pretending to be something they are not and using the same gear (and dogs) that SF use simply because they want to have the "best" stuff. That's a BS and amateurish mentality...and I've spent plenty of time explaining why, though oddly enough I never have gotten any direct responses from you regarding that topic.

I'm not dismissing the Malinois or the Dutch Shepherd. I own a GSD but I can still appreciate what other breeds bring to the table. Earlier in your posts, you said you preferred a Malinois at your side for SWAT because that's what SF uses and you wanted the "best" dog available. That's what got my attention.
1) You're not SF and don't have the exact same mission requirements.
2) SF doesn't use the Mali because it's the "best." They use it because it meets their mission requirements (mostly related to size and mobility).


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## Blitzkrieg1

King Shepherd is not a breed. There is no such thing as a working "king" shepherd. 

SF, Border Patrol and many LE depts Like xMals because they work well, have good health, are plentiful and relatively cheap. 
The dogs role in all those functions may differ slightly but in the end they are too slight to matter.
Find drugs, bombs, people. Apprehend people. Protect the handler.


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## Slamdunc

Dalko,
I'm certainly not pretending to be anything that I'm not. I've explained my thoughts and experience on this thread regarding working dogs. I can't even imagine what direct responses that you think I didn't provide you? 

As far as the NY State Police go, well I'm a little familiar with one breeder that has supplied them with a GSD. Truly, they found the elusive unicorn from that breeder; or our standards are much higher. I think both are likely. 

I think when you get some real experience working dogs yourself, then things will be much clearer. Hands on experience working dogs of varied breeds in different venues is really the best way to learn or even begin to form a conclusion, IMHO.

Best of luck in your search for your new dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I think the key words are "mission requirements".

Something which has shifted since 9/11 and has been debated.

Watching the tragic events unfold in Belgium I noticed two differently uniformed groups doing sweeps and crowd control. One group had all mals, one group all GSDs.


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc said:


> Dalko,
> I'm certainly not pretending to be anything that I'm not. I've explained my thoughts and experience on this thread regarding working dogs. I can't even imagine what direct responses that you think I didn't provide you?
> 
> As far as the NY State Police go, well I'm a little familiar with one breeder that has supplied them with a GSD. Truly, they found the elusive unicorn from that breeder; or our standards are much higher. I think both are likely.
> 
> I think when you get some real experience working dogs yourself, then things will be much clearer. Hands on experience working dogs of varied breeds in different venues is really the best way to learn or even begin to form a conclusion, IMHO.
> 
> Best of luck in your search for your new dog.


Slam, I've brought up several times now why I am responding to our posts. It has nothing to do with your preference (for working duties) for the Mali over the GSD and everything to do with this statement you made early on:



Slamdunc said:


> Yup, I want the same type of dog for my handlers as the Tier 1 SF teams want. I want the best dog I can get to put on the street and keep that handler safe.


And, I have yet to hear you respond to my main points of contention:
1) You're not SF. Receiving a little "training" from former SEAL's doesn't mean that you operate the same way or in the same type of environment.
2) Just because SF uses something, does mean that it is inherently the "best" as you seem to think it is. Refer to my discussion on pistol calibers.

As for the NY state troopers dog preferences....so you know the breeder who provides most of their GSD's? Who is it?

I also don't know how you can comment on the NY trooper's breed standards or lack thereof, seeing as you don't work for them. I am sure if I did a little digging, I could find other police departments that have just as many GSD's, or more, relative to Mali's. I seem to recall MWD's having just as many GSD's, probably more, than Mali's and Dutch Shepherds.

So you're going to argue that all of those dog programs either:
A) have access to some "unicorn" GSD breeder?
or 
B) have less stringent standards for the dogs to meet?

With so many GSD's in LE, military, and other working services, I have a hard time accepting the "unicorn" argument. I'd just say that there are good breeders and bad breeders; the same holds true for just about any breed.

And seeing as how you haven't mentioned any service time either in the military or with some of these other PD's, I'm not sure how you can claim that their dog programs are less rigorous than your department's.

If you prefer the Mali over the GSD for your particular duties and job, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you...that's a subjective matter and everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But from all of the rhetoric I've seen from you about how the working GSD is a "unicorn" compared to the Mali, I can't help but think of you as fanboy toting the "malinois or bust" party line. At the very least, I've provided some quantitative evidence, albeit of a limited sample size, showing that working GSD's are still used in great numbers. Your PD may prefer the Malinois for working duties. That's all well and good. But is your PD necessarily representative of the entire working dog community?


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## Steve Strom

> Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
> Yup, I want the same type of dog for my handlers as the Tier 1 SF teams want. I want the best dog I can get to put on the street and keep that handler safe.


Uh oh. I want the same type and I'm not even a cop.


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## Stonevintage

And every 1st time dog owner is absolutely sure they want the same type of dog too. It's said to be the best and certainly everyone wants the best and breeders aim to please - some will not screen properly. So, you get someone with way too much dog than they can handle. No one goes to a breeder and says they want a doormat dog. They want a dog like SF or LEO's have.

That's why I'm concerned about this push for these "super dogs". Every weapon created eventually ends up as up in the wrong hands as well as the right hands and then there's a problem. There is a point where I think that a permit, proven training and proper enclosure needs to be in place to own one of these dogs. LEO's taking their trained super dogs home to let them romp with their kids. I think is coming to an end. This because the demand and temperament changes are creating an animal no longer well balanced and now more of a danger.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Great idea. More laws and permits. I look forward to hearing what govt organization will be qualified to first determine if the dog is a "super dog", then if the training is correct. 
There is no "push" for anything. Dogs like this have existed for a long time. Thanks to the internet people not in the business on forums like this get to hear about them. Niether should the assumption be made that because such a dog is more then most petsmart type training and the average pet owner can handle that they lack balance or are some sort of time bomb waiting to go off. 
I'm more worried about the fear aggressive labs and pet line GSDs I get in my classes. Less predictable and more prone to biting at the wrong time.

As Slam already said. Once you get some hands on experience with the dogs and the training required then you can start to have legitimate concerns.


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## Slamdunc

Dalko,
I think you need to go back and reread my posts. You are not really grasping what I have posted. 

First, I responded to your question about why I like the dogs that I like and what we do with them. To simplify it for you, a good dog is a good dog. Some dogs are better than others at certain tasks. I described in detail the traits, drives and temperament that I have found based on my experience, make excellent SF, LE, SWAT or MWD's. The traits, drives, working ability are the same, not all dogs have it in the right combination. Please go back and see for yourself where I answered what types of dogs and specifically what traits I look for in a working dog. I also gave a detailed answer and comparison of what the Tier 1 guys want in a dog and what I want and the differences between the two. I am not inclined to do it twice or even three times in one thread. 

Regarding the NYS K-9 unit, again you missed the mark on what I said. At this point, I really think you need to read posts a little more slowly or perhaps your on your phone with a really small screen? I was referring to one breeder that sold them a couple of dogs. Yes, working GSD's from that breeder are truly unicorns. I suppose even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then. I will not mention the breeder's name as I have little respect for their breeding or for them as people. 

Sorry, but you have not provided any "quantitative evidence, albeit of a limited sample size," as even of a limited size is meaningless. Here say and testimonal evidence based on bias and I saw this one time or I found it on Wikipedia does not convince me. 

This is really a futile discussion at this point, IMO. I have said that I am a GSD guy, there are excellent GSD breeders out there producing great dogs. I own two currently, one for sport and one for work. Of course, you can still find excellent GSD's for MWD's and LE dogs. I never said that you couldn't. They are just not as readily available as other working breeds in sufficient quantities at competitive prices. 

I suppose that I am as clear as mud, again. 

Sir, best of luck to you with your dog and your search for a new dog. I'm finished debating this with you as this may be one of those times where agreement is not likely. We can agree to disagree on this. I suppose it all boils down to what traits a person wants for a working dog and what they can handle. Not everyone wants the dogs that I like, nor can they handle them or work them. There is most certainly a personal preference. I had a conversation with one of handlers tonight, his GSD is 9 and will be retiring soon. A nice dog, a good patrol dog and a good narcotics K-9. Not great, but pretty good. I tested and selected this dog for this handler almost 8 years ago and they have done a good job on the street. This GSD would never have made a SWAT dog, but neither would his handler ever be a SWAT handler. This particular GSD is a well functioning dual purpose Patrol / Narcotics dog. He has done a good job and has had some nice apprehensions. We discussed getting the Handler a new dog tonight and one of the first things he said was that he didn't want a dog like mine. Honestly, he couldn't have handled my GSD Boomer and certainly wants no part of my new Malinois X Dutch Shepherd, Boru. He is very uncomfortable around my new dog and made it pretty clear, that is not want he wants. So, in a few months I will need to find him a dog that is suitable for him. Not a super high drive dog, not an overly civil dog and a dog that is easier to handle. I may very well select a GSD for him. He needs a good overall dog that can get the job done, nothing too high speed. The dog that I select for him will probably not be a dog I would select for myself or some of the other handlers in my unit.


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## Slamdunc

Stonevintage said:


> And every 1st time dog owner is absolutely sure they want the same type of dog too. It's said to be the best and certainly everyone wants the best and breeders aim to please - some will not screen properly. So, you get someone with way too much dog than they can handle. No one goes to a breeder and says they want a doormat dog. They want a dog like SF or LEO's have.
> 
> That's why I'm concerned about this push for these "super dogs". Every weapon created eventually ends up as up in the wrong hands as well as the right hands and then there's a problem. There is a point where I think that a permit, proven training and proper enclosure needs to be in place to own one of these dogs. LEO's taking their trained super dogs home to let them romp with their kids. I think is coming to an end. *This because the demand and temperament changes are creating an animal no longer well balanced and now more of a danger.*


Dogs that are not well balanced and "more of a danger" have no place as LE K-9's, IMHO. 

I do agree that anyone owning a dog needs to have a proper enclosure for their dogs. Too many dogs wind up getting hit by cars or euthanized at shelters daily, because irresponsible owners could not / would not / or did not secure them properly.


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## viking

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Great idea. More laws and permits. I look forward to hearing what govt organization will be qualified to first determine if the dog is a "super dog", then if the training is correct.
> There is no "push" for anything. Dogs like this have existed for a long time. Thanks to the internet people not in the business on forums like this get to hear about them. Niether should the assumption be made that because such a dog is more then most petsmart type training and the average pet owner can handle that they lack balance or are some sort of time bomb waiting to go off.
> I'm more worried about the fear aggressive labs and pet line GSDs I get in my classes. Less predictable and more prone to biting at the wrong time.
> 
> As Slam already said. Once you get some hands on experience with the dogs and the training required then you can start to have legitimate concerns.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Bravo!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Great idea. More laws and permits. I look forward to hearing what govt organization will be qualified to first determine if the dog is a "super dog", then if the training is correct.
> There is no "push" for anything. Dogs like this have existed for a long time. Thanks to the internet people not in the business on forums like this get to hear about them. Niether should the assumption be made that because such a dog is more then most petsmart type training and the average pet owner can handle that they lack balance or are some sort of time bomb waiting to go off.
> I'm more worried about the fear aggressive labs and pet line GSDs I get in my classes. Less predictable and more prone to biting at the wrong time.
> 
> As Slam already said. Once you get some hands on experience with the dogs and the training required then you can start to have legitimate concerns.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:




Slamdunc said:


> Dogs that are not well balanced and "more of a danger" have no place as LE K-9's, IMHO.
> 
> I do agree that anyone owning a dog needs to have a proper enclosure for their dogs. Too many dogs wind up getting hit by cars or euthanized at shelters daily, because irresponsible owners could not / would not / or did not secure them properly.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Well said for well bred!!!


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## Chip18

Oh well if we also discussions "unicorns??" I'm wondering about the "mythical" Working "King Shepherds??" Not a term I'm familiar with??


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## Stonevintage

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Thanks to the internet people not in the business on forums like this get to hear about them.


Only from one or two people such as yourself. Perhaps if you were posting on a K9 military or LE dog forum you would not be getting opinions and comments from pet owners. But you're not - you are posting on what is primarily a GSD pet site. As it is, it is apparent that you feel that your training methods and dogs are superior, yet you acknowledge using whips on the dog as a training tool? That will get you arrested, no need to make a new law there and no need for us pet people to try out whipping a dog before we form an opinion....

So this has become a place for professionals to argue over who needs an SF quality dog or not? Who is bringing this information here and expecting the topic not to raise questions or concerns when every detail of what type of work and harsh training is involved with pro dogs is discussed? When you sing the praises of these dogs here, exercise your egos and discount others - don't you think you are adding to the problem rather than taking away from it?

Wouldn't a site that hosts professionals such as yourself be better for you to discuss the finer points on professional protection training and what kind of dog you need? Your peer group is glaringly absent from primarily pet sites. I think that's for good reason....


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## Slamdunc

Stonevintage,
This thread started about the "Malinois being on the way out." Based on a couple of articles or incidents that were reported. As i said earlier in the thread, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. If we are discussing dogs being unbalanced or overly aggressive, there are GSD's that would fall into this category as well. It was not my intention to argue over the merits of different breeds of dogs, just offer my real world experience. A good working dog is a good working dog, regardless of breed. 

Now, there are plenty of dog breeds that are not used for LE work and are highly aggressive, can be unbalanced and can be very dangerous. 

I see the outstanding work the Belgian Malinois, Mal X GSD, Dutch Shepherd and GSD's do every day. Over the past 7 - 8 years of testing, selecting and working dogs as a K-9 Handler and K-9 trainer I have seen a shift in the dogs available. It is a simple fact, the GSD, while still an excellent choice for LE work is not as readily available as the Mals and X's are. You can still find excellent GSD's, they are still out there doing an excellent job. If I was told to only select a GSD for our next handler, of course I could find one. It would be a lot more work, a lot more testing with various vendors and a lot more time invested. I refuse to limit or handcuff myself when it comes to a good working dog. I simply test dogs, find ones that meet my needs, criteria and expectations. If it's a GSD, Mal or X, I don't care. For me, it is all about the dog and the working ability. It is not about breed.


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## Dalko43

Slamdunc said:


> I refuse to limit or handcuff myself when it comes to a good working dog. I simply test dogs, find ones that meet my needs, criteria and expectations. * If it's a GSD, Mal or X, I don't care. For me, it is all about the dog and the working ability. It is not about breed.*


Now if you had just said that from the very beginning instead of giving your whole speech about how you need what SF uses, because you need the "best" dogs out there, I think you and I would have had a lot more agreement throughout this conversation.


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## Slamdunc

Dalko43 said:


> Now if you had just said that from the very beginning instead of giving your whole speech about how you need what SF uses, because you need the "best" dogs out there, I think you and I would have had a lot more agreement throughout this conversation.


I did, several times. :wink2:


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