# Is this a good breeder in Montreal area (new member). Help needed please :)



## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Hi guys, new member here, been lurking for a while. My girlfriend and I have decided to get a GSD and we're really excited. I am in Montreal area, have already visited one breeder, but still decided to look around. Last week, we visited this breeder about half an hour away from Montreal. I absolutely fell in love with his dogs. His dogs looked healthy (doesn't necessarily mean that they WERE healthy) and were just everything that we were looking for. Now, here is the thing, his dogs are not registered, his puppies come with no guarantee and are not tested. They are workline. I am no expert in german shepherds but have been doing as much research as I can. A lot of people have said that papers prove nothing. I am really confused. I called him a few days ago and asked him why he doesn't get his puppies tested and he told me that the majority of breeders got rid of HD a long time ago and it's not as prevalent as it used to be. As for the papers, he told me that his dogs are of Canadian origin and they don't need them. Today, I found out that it's basically illegal to sell non registered dogs. I also learned that non registered dogs aren't purebred . When i went there, they seemed to be really caring of their dogs. Also, he sells his puppies for 800$ . 

You guys here seem to be really educated and experienced on German Shepherds. Your help would mean everything to us. Again thank you so much in advance. :help::help:

It's my first post , after 2 more i'd be able to post the link to the breeder's website. But if you guys really wanna check out his website, just google '' berger allemand chiots'' and it'll be the first link. It's in french, you can check out his dogs, he posts a lot of videos of puppies, them playing, getting their shots. If you have any questions, ask away.

Sorry for my english, French Canadian here


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

PS: Just want to include that his dogs don't come with a microchip and are not examined for potential hip and elbow problems. All they get are shots and i could put the links to the videos of them getting it. Strange cause people have nothing but good things to say about them in the testimony on the website


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Hi there, I'm from Ontario and actually planning on moving to Montreal soon!

First off - avoid this guy. Everything you said about him describes him as a backyard breeder, pretty much everything he said to you was a lie. Complete bull****teux. Registration doesn't prove anything, but it is still important. Any responsible breeder in Canada will have their dogs registered with the CKC. Hip/elbow issues have no been eliminated from the breed, health testing is absolutely necessary. Here is a good post on Reddit on how to evaluate a breeder.  Basically a breeder should be proving their breeding stock in 2 ways. 1. Health testing. 2. proving their ability/temperament through show/sport/work.

Second, why are you looking at working lines? Any GSD is going to be high energy and require a huge level of commitment, but working lines typically take this to another level. Especially since you don't seem to have very much experience with the breed, I would recommend focusing your research into show lines.

I'm going to do some searching and see if I can direct you to some good breeders, most of the ones I am familiar with are a little further away from you in southern Ontario.


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Here is a breeder in Granby. These are West German Show Lines. It appears they health test and participate in show, there is also a lot of good general information about the breed on their site. 

Something I forgot to mention is degenerative myelopathy (DM), a common genetic illness in the breed which should be tested for. Their website has no mention about it, so this is something you would want to bring up with them if you decide to give them a call. 

You can try contacting the GSD club, local show clubs, etc. to search for breeders. I would also recommend going out to some GSD events.

Here is an example of a proper working line breeder, who also happens to be near Montreal.  She is focused primarily in Czech (working) lines. Again I don't think this is necessarily the right dog for you, but think you should be informed anyway.


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## RZZNSTR (Jan 24, 2015)

Wendelin Farm.


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Avoid that guy.. HD has not been eliminated, and he's a scamming backyard breeder. You also do not need to get a show line for your first gsd. There are several people on here that have gotten WL for their first dogs. 

If you have been lurking for awhile you are probably aware the amount of exercise on needs (it doesn't prepare you). Good luck on your search. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

RZZNSTR said:


> Wendelin Farm.


 Agree....never met the breeder but know 2 dogs from them. Beautiful dogs but really high drive so maybe not so good for a novice.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'd avoid at all costs, you can PM Vaks who is in your area and used to breed GSD's so she will have contacts nearby and hopefully help you find a match

If you're willing to put in the time and effort a WL can be a fantastic active pet, but you do need to commit  There are some that are couch potatoes, it's all in matching the right dog to you


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Exactly what I expected from this forum, amazing ! Thank you so much for your help guys

Too many to quote ha so: 

@Otakunberry Thanks a lot man, and yes now I am certain that I am not going with this ''breeder''. Yes I have already looked into the breeder in Granby, but to be honest I don't like the look of their dogs with the roach back. I am an athlete and want a dog who I can sprint with and do activities with. Based on my research , workline would be better. The thing my gf and I are very picky about our puppy ahaha . And yes I've already seen the Wendelin Farms and honestly we don't like the color of their dogs , too dark for us. We can say that we're looking for the classic GSD look 

@RZZNSTAR Thanks , have already looked into it, would prefer a dog with the classic GSD coat (black and tan)

@amburger16 Thank you, I am not worried about exercise and I am aware of it 

@MishkasMom Thank You 

@Shade Opposite of a couch potato here my friend . And yes we will be fully commited. Thank you so much 

I love it , thanks a lot guys. Any more help would be really appreciated.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I agree with everyone else, I just wanted to clarify a few things for you. 

In Canada we have the Animal Pedigree Act which basically states that in order for an animal to be represented as a purebred it must be eligible for registration. The Act also prohibits charging more for animals 'with papers'. So if the animal is eligible the registration must be provided at no additional charge. A breeder can have the buyer submit and pay for the individual registration but the litter must be registered to do that.
So it doesn't mean the dogs aren't purebred, it just means that in this country it is illegal to represent them as such to sell. 
And trust me, it hasn't stopped the backyard breeders at all.

You need to also be aware that Quebec has come under fire a lot for the number of commercial animal breeders there. It has achieved the dubious honor of being the puppy mill capitol of Canada, so it's great that you are asking for advice and feedback. Good luck in your search.


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Panzer22 said:


> Exactly what I expected from this forum, amazing ! Thank you so much for your help guys
> 
> Too many to quote ha so:
> 
> ...


I guarantee that any GSD regardless of line will be able to outpace you lol! I sympathize with having structural preferences, but you should never select a dog based on coat colour. Keep in mind that the stack (the way they are posed) usually emphasizes the arched/sloped toplines. Most dogs look better in a normal position.

The traditional black and tan is actually most common in American show lines. Here is a breeder in between Ottawa and Toronto. http://www.hellwiggshepherds.com/first.html

Lucescu Kennels is a working line breeder who has incorporated show lines into her female dogs, and they throw the black/tan very often. She is in the Niagara area though. http://www.committedtocanine.com

I think I'm not able to find many Quebecois breeder because I'm searching in English... like I said contacting your local clubs/attending events is the best way to meet people and learn about the breed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

We can say that we're looking for the classic GSD look 

except that it's not classic - and is pretty much confined to the west German show lines which you say you don't want because of the roach back.


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

@Otakubenny Yesss !! A fast, athletic dog is what I am really looking for, and if he can outrun me, then that's great ! So you mean it's not possible to get a black/tan workline, and they only come in black, sable. All the research I've been doing for the past like 5 months seems like a waste of time now, I should've registered on this forum a loooong time ago. I am learning more and more , and yes I am confused as **** LOL. 

@carmspack Thanks for your help. Again, based on my research, I've seen black/tan worklines. But I know I am completely wrong because you guys clearly know better than I do. So if you could elaborate on that it would be really appreciated

BTW, I found this breeder 3 hours from Montreal: http://www.monbergerallemand.ca/ 

Seems really professional


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Panzer22 said:


> @Otakubenny Yesss !! A fast, athletic dog is what I am really looking for, and if he can outrun me, then that's great ! So you mean it's not possible to get a black/tan workline, and they only come in black, sable. All the research I've been doing for the past like 5 months seems like a waste of time now,http://www.monbergerallemand.ca/
> 
> l


You can find black/tan working lines. Sables, blacks and bi's are most prevalent but you can certainly find black/tan. The ones I've seen have a heavier saddle or are blanket backs.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

black/tans
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695601557207236.1073741842.695601147207277&type=3
Welcome to Rebel Yelle
Fyte vd Staatsmacht - WUSV competitor
2015uscanationals
staatsmacht

There are many more.


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> black/tans
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.695601557207236.1073741842.695601147207277&type=3
> Welcome to Rebel Yelle
> Fyte vd Staatsmacht - WUSV competitor
> ...




WOW , thank you so much Jax ! The dog from the first link is EXACTLY what i am looking for. Unfortunately, it's too far for me. I can't find one like that here in Quebec or even in Ontario.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

So import one


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> So import one


Sounds good


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

You can still find black and tan working lines for sure. I think they're still less common, but I just had a litter out of my bitch (sable) and the 4 male puppies were all black and tan (as is their sire).

10/25/15 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr

10/25/15 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr

10/6/15 by Alexis Roy, on Flickr

I know of a few other breeders in the states that have produced black and tans, but I'm not sure I could offer much insight to breeders in Canada. Good luck!


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Otakubenny said:


> Hi there, I'm from Ontario and actually planning on moving to Montreal soon!
> 
> First off - avoid this guy. Everything you said about him describes him as a backyard breeder, pretty much everything he said to you was a lie. Complete bull****teux. Registration doesn't prove anything, but it is still important. Any responsible breeder in Canada will have their dogs registered with the CKC. Hip/elbow issues have no been eliminated from the breed, health testing is absolutely necessary. Here is a good post on Reddit on how to evaluate a breeder.  Basically a breeder should be proving their breeding stock in 2 ways. 1. Health testing. 2. proving their ability/temperament through show/sport/work.
> 
> ...



I have to disagree here on the redirection to Showline. I would 100% consider Working Lines. It is really dependent on the individual dog. My WL male is high drive ( his Dad is Iron von den wolfen) but has a great off switch and I believe could be handled even in an active pet home. I had a Showline male who was harder to handle. Again talk to a good breeder and they will help you select the right puppy. 

BTW I got my pup from Wendelin Farms in Quebec. Excellent breeder, great support . I got everything I asked for in my pup.


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

mattpayne said:


> I have to disagree here on the redirection to Showline. I would 100% consider Working Lines. It is really dependent on the individual dog. My WL male is high drive ( his Dad is Iron von den wolfen) but has a great off switch and I believe could be handled even in an active pet home. I had a Showline male who was harder to handle. Again talk to a good breeder and they will help you select the right puppy.
> 
> BTW I got my pup from Wendelin Farms in Quebec. Excellent breeder, great support . I got everything I asked for in my pup.


Thank you for your help. I know about Wendelin Farms and have heard nothing but good things. The only issue is the color of the coat, as I mentioned in the OP, I am looking more for black/tan. Again , thank you


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Is this a workline ? It's from the breeder mentioned in the OP.

''The price includes the first vaccination and health check , deworming , a starter kit and a Royal Canin pack and obedience class if you live close enough to our region''

What the price includes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's impossible to tell. I doubt it. she looks more like an american/canadian showline. Looking at the pictures, I'd say a mash of lines.

And that price also includes zero health testing on his breeding stock.


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> It's impossible to tell. I doubt it. she looks more like an american/canadian showline. Looking at the pictures, I'd say a mash of lines.
> 
> And that price also includes zero health testing on his breeding stock.


WOW, being on this forum has been an eye opener. And I thought, well I learned that straight back= pure workline. 

I knew there was something shady about the guy

Thanks again Jax


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The "straight back" is not correct. All German Shepherds are supposed to have an angle. Some lines are more angulated like the American showlines but it really shows in a stack.

Here is my boy. 100% working line, predominantly WG


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

mattpayne said:


> I have to disagree here on the redirection to Showline. I would 100% consider Working Lines. It is really dependent on the individual dog. My WL male is high drive ( his Dad is Iron von den wolfen) but has a great off switch and I believe could be handled even in an active pet home. I had a Showline male who was harder to handle. Again talk to a good breeder and they will help you select the right puppy.
> 
> BTW I got my pup from Wendelin Farms in Quebec. Excellent breeder, great support . I got everything I asked for in my pup.


Really though for how inexperienced the OP is? This guy went as far as visiting this very obvious BYB and came very close to being completely swindled. No offense to the OP because we all start somewhere, and luckily something made him post here.

IMO a WL can work well as a pet if the person is at least somewhat experienced and truly understands both their physical and mental needs. A lot of dogs can be exercised all day but still won't settle because they don't get enough mental stimulation. I think the threshold for these things are higher in WLs and an inexperienced owner may have trouble dealing with it once problems arise. The propensity for the everyday dog problems a typical owner faces is just amplified with a WL.

I agree that it depends largely on the individual dog, but there is still a larger risk for (again) how inexperienced the OP is. Puppies are sort of inherently a gamble. Many "runts" of the litter are just slow to mature and will develop much stronger drives in the future. In which case if OP really wanted to stick to a WL I would recommend an adult dog so he knows 100% what the dog is like.

I would also reason that because you had that showline in the past you are now a better handler with your current dog, which is why he behaves as well as he does. How do you think your WL might have turned out if you had gotten him when you got your SL?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

mattpayne said:


> I have to disagree here on the redirection to Showline. I would 100% consider Working Lines. It is really dependent on the individual dog. * My WL male is high drive ( his Dad is Iron von den wolfen) but has a great off switch and I believe could be handled even in an active pet home.*
> 
> BTW I got my pup from Wendelin Farms in Quebec. Excellent breeder, great support . I got everything I asked for in my pup.


100% agree.

It's those Eros kids.  There are many in active pet homes. Mine is laying next to me. 

And Wendelin has an excellent reputation.


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Otakubenny said:


> Really though for how inexperienced the OP is? This guy went as far as visiting this very obvious BYB and came very close to being completely swindled. No offense to the OP because we all start somewhere, and luckily something made him post here.
> 
> IMO a WL can work well as a pet if the person is at least somewhat experienced and truly understands both their physical and mental needs. A lot of dogs can be exercised all day but still won't settle because they don't get enough mental stimulation. I think the threshold for these things are higher in WLs and an inexperienced owner may have trouble dealing with it once problems arise. The propensity for the everyday dog problems a typical owner faces is just amplified with a WL.
> 
> ...



With every post, I learn more and more. Thank you all. If you don't mind , can I PM you ?


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## Otakubenny (Sep 22, 2015)

Panzer22 said:


> With every post, I learn more and more. Thank you all. If you don't mind , can I PM you ?


Feel free to PM me.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

My WL is a sable but the breeder has black and tans that are full WL too. You do not find the sables and black in the show lines much but there are black and tans in WL. The darker dogs have become very popular so I think that is part of the reason you see more. Sudenblick in TX is my breeder. May be too far but you can certainly look at her site and see her dogs...I'm sure she would ship. My girl has a nice drive and is very active but she also settles and has been great in the house and is not hyper or destructive. Very sound mentally and physically. She would not be too much as long as someone gives the time and training.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Panzer22 said:


> Thank you for your help. I know about Wendelin Farms and have heard nothing but good things. The only issue is the color of the coat, as I mentioned in the OP, I am looking more for black/tan. Again , thank you


I can't help you with searching for a breeder, although I could point out that breeders ship pups. But I can tell you that my male is black/red, and he is definitely WL. 






















My best suggestion would be to broaden your search area, and have the pup shipped to you.


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

SiegersMom said:


> My WL is a sable but the breeder has black and tans that are full WL too. You do not find the sables and black in the show lines much but there are black and tans in WL. The darker dogs have become very popular so I think that is part of the reason you see more. Sudenblick in TX is my breeder. May be too far but you can certainly look at her site and see her dogs...I'm sure she would ship. My girl has a nice drive and is very active but she also settles and has been great in the house and is not hyper or destructive. Very sound mentally and physically. She would not be too much as long as someone gives the time and training.


Thank you, I am still looking


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## Panzer22 (Oct 28, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I can't help you with searching for a breeder, although I could point out that breeders ship pups. But I can tell you that my male is black/red, and he is definitely WL.
> View attachment 326698
> 
> View attachment 326706
> ...


He's beautiful ! Yes it's true that I could have one shipped, but ideally if I find one here in Quebec I'd be a happy man


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Élevage sélectif de Berger Allemand

These are showline, but keep an open mind and ignore the stack. Just loock at the dogs.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I think you calling the showlines roach back and asking for 'straight back' dogs shows your level of inexperience... Don't be fooled by photos of stacked dogs. The picture I've attached is my dog stacked in various ways(granted not the best examples of stacks lol) but they are all the same dog.  I'd recommend trying to spend some time with these dogs, see if you can find a GSD club and/or an IPO club to get a feel for the different lines.

My boy in the photo is 50% west German show and the rest is a mix of west German working and DDR(he's also a long coat). He's an amazing house dog, fabulous off switch but will herd until he dropped dead. But I did deal with some pretty serious dog reactivity and some other issues that made him hard to handle so he wasn't the 'best' dog for a novice but I sure learned a lot about being a better handler from him. He could easily be a good running buddy too, I bike with him and we hike a lot too. Would I recommend a cross? Hmmm well not unless the breeder really knew what they were doing mixing the lines. 

My west German working female is very different from him, she needs A LOT more mental stimulation... physical exercise really does nothing for her and if I ONLY exercise her and don't work her brain she never gets tired and won't settle in the house. I would have definitely been way over my head had I had her before my male!

Good luck on your search!


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