# California, Fresno, 3 day old baby killed by family dogs



## selzer

California newborn killed by family dogs | cleveland.com

We think it was an accident. 

Who would mix shar peis with pit bulls?

Who would leave a 3 day old baby on a couch with the door wide open and dogs you know are aggressive out there, tied up? 

33 year old woman with no brains at all. 3 day old baby no chance at all. 

I know, I know, I know. 

Maybe she was living with her brother, and her brother wasn't living with her. Maybe she needed a place to stay, and he had dogs. You don't give up your dogs because your sister moves in with her baby. Maybe. So often when people want to rehome a dog that will bite children, this is what I envision, the fact that people cannot be with an infant/small child every moment of every day to prevent a tragedy like this one. Sooner or later with a dog that will bite, there is going to be something happen. 

:frown2:

Glad it wasn't a shepherd, but this kind of thing hurts all dog owners everywhere.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Monday was a banner day. This woman died that day too from a Pit Bull attack a week ago. Her injuries were compared to Charla Gnash whose face was mauled off by a friend's chimpanzee. 

Woman dies one week after dog attack in New Haven - WFSB 3 Connecticut


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## MineAreWorkingline

This woman was killed earlier this month as she sat in her own backyard by a neighbor's Pit Bull.

Neighbour describes dog attack on woman killed in her backyard - Montreal - CBC News


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## MineAreWorkingline

There have been 3 cases so far this year of 3 day old babies being killed by dogs, two were by Pit mixes. Pit types are only 6% of total dogs owned. Two of the fatalities were in Ohio. I am not sure about the third.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Correction, only one was in Ohio.


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## llombardo

I read this earlier and someone posted they were Sharpei and Lab, but I don't know how they said that when I have't seen a picture of the dogs anywhere. I stopped reading the story when it read "thought the dogs were tied up". My first thought was why were dogs tied up in a yard with a fence unless there was an issue? Where do these people get these dogs? Do they just get a dog and leave it outside without any interaction? I don't understand how you bring a baby home to this kind of scenario? These people get dogs and have no clue what to do with them, now an innocent baby is dead. These people should be charged with being stupid.


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## MineAreWorkingline

"Lab mix" is shelter code name used to dupe the public to increase the chances of getting a Pit Bull adopted. 

I have read a few versions of OP's article. All of them stated Pit Bull / Sharpei mix.


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## Elf

llombardo said:


> I read this earlier and someone posted they were Sharpei and Lab, but I don't know how they said that when I have't seen a picture of the dogs anywhere. I stopped reading the story when it read "thought the dogs were tied up". My first thought was why were dogs tied up in a yard with a fence unless there was an issue? Where do these people get these dogs? Do they just get a dog and leave it outside without any interaction? I don't understand how you bring a baby home to this kind of scenario? These people get dogs and have no clue what to do with them, now an innocent baby is dead. These people should be charged with being stupid.


Exactly.


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## llombardo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "Lab mix" is shelter code name used to dupe the public to increase the chances of getting a Pit Bull adopted.
> 
> I have read a few versions of OP's article. All of them stated Pit Bull / Sharpei mix.


It wasn't in the article that I seen it, it was comments that someone made that knew the dogs. I can't say one way or the other, but the media tends to go with pit bull for anything like this, it gets way more attention then if it was a poodle. Here, everything is a pit bull mix even if it isn't, they don't have problems adopting out dogs because they are pit bulls, there are just to many of them. No matter what breed it was, my guess is that this would have happened no matter what because these people had no clue about dogs period.


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## Thecowboysgirl

there is a pic of at least 1 of the dogs if you look for it.

I definitely see the shar pei. Couldn't say with any certaintly what else


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## Thecowboysgirl

Here it is


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## llombardo

I did a search and there is a very and I mean very short video clip of both dogs. The first dog has pointy ears and at first glance which was really fast I thought a Belgian Mal mix, but then it was on the shorter heavier side. 


If really doesn't matter because a baby and two dogs are dead over stupidity.


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## MineAreWorkingline

13 out of 16 dog bite related fatalities of 2016 were by pit bull types. 2 out of 3 three day old babies killed in 2016 by Pit Bull types. Does anybody else see a correlation?


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## Thecowboysgirl

MAWL I am totally with you on the pit thing. Not sure they were the culprits here but they usually are.


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## selzer

Any dog might kill a 3 day old baby, given the opportunity. But there is enough hysteria and enough stories about pit bulls and attacks/deaths that people who have 3 day old babies should ensure that the baby is out of Harm's way. 

Shepherds are great mother dogs. They will mother anything (even baby mice, ew!). When, as a dam, their puppies make noises, they are right there figuring out if it is hungry or needs to be relieved -- the bitches have to stimulate this to make it function when they are new. They are careful and protective, and will move their babies if they are anxious about the where they are situated. Other bitches will hear the cries of another bitch's pups and want to do something about it. 

When a young couple had a new baby, the shepherd bitch heard the baby crying and went and took the baby to the couple. Total accident, understanding how bitches are, but human babies are not made to be hauled around by dogs. It did not survive the encounter. 

If you have a Pomeranian, maybe you can plead ignorance when the dog kills the newborn that was left lying on the bed. (Happened.) If you have a pit bull you can't plead ignorance. I am sorry, but charges need to be filed in this case. I hate adding to the parent's pain, but this sort of negligence is criminal. That poor baby.


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## MineAreWorkingline

llombardo said:


> It wasn't in the article that I seen it, it was comments that someone made that knew the dogs. I can't say one way or the other, but the media tends to go with pit bull for anything like this, it gets way more attention then if it was a poodle. Here, everything is a pit bull mix even if it isn't, they don't have problems adopting out dogs because they are pit bulls, there are just to many of them. No matter what breed it was, my guess is that this would have happened no matter what because these people had no clue about dogs period.


A Poodle mauling or killing would be headline news. Human deaths by dog bites are not dismissed because the breed is not a Pit or a Pit mix. The media tends to go with what the dog owners or Animal Control tells them. The media is very leery of speculating as to breed as they have come under fire for that in the past. Where I live, everything is a Pit Bull mix too, but that is because that is the breed in shelters, etc. People are capable of recognizing a Beagle, a Collie, an Irish Setter or a Pit Bull just by appearances. I disagree 100% that no matter what breed it is that the same would have happened. Right or wrong, mothers leave babies alone with dogs all the time to run to the bathroom and come back to unharmed children.

This is the second time this year that Pit Bulls have killed a three day old baby. The third three day old baby was killed by a terrier mix. Pit Bulls and their mixes only represent 6% of dogs owned. Two out of three fatal attacks on three day old babies for a fairly unpopular breed is not something one can chalk up to say any breed could have done it.


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## Jax08

Pitbulls are just the latest breed to be top of the list. Google the stats. You'll find that German Shepherds were the top in the 70s. Then Dobes. Then Rotts.

It would be great if we could keep the bully breed hating threads off this board.


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## selzer

Jax08 said:


> Pitbulls are just the latest breed to be top of the list. Google the stats. You'll find that German Shepherds were the top in the 70s. Then Dobes. Then Rotts.
> 
> It would be great if we could keep the bully breed hating threads off this board.


This is baloney Michelle, and you know it. In the 20 years ending in 2001, pit bulls were on the top of fatalities. They still are. 

Maybe in ancient history, the 1970s when everything with pointy ears was a GSD, and no one heard about pit bulls, GSDs were it. But they have never topped the rating in killings for decades. What is it, 4 decades, 5? I am sick and tired of taking the fall for pit bulls. Their owners shouldn't get a free pass anymore. If you want a pit bull, fine. If it kills someone, go to prison.

And, this is a current dog event. It is allowed here to have a thread about a baby being killed by dogs because it effects all of us when something like this happens. It isn't a pit bull hating thread, it is a dog killing baby thread, and I think that the baby is more important than being politically correct when it comes to pit bulls.


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## MineAreWorkingline

German Shepherds and Dobes never earned that reputation. Rotts did to a degree, but a far distant second to Pits. 

It is hard not to engage when one can't walk their dog around the block without a Pit Bull problem. I have a friend in Erie. He says the Pit Bull problem is extremely bad up that way.


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## Muskeg

I would never leave my newborn baby out with the dogs. It's all so new, maybe the dog goes to eat the poop in the baby's diaper and hurts the baby. Nothing would be more important to me than the baby, and to lose the dogs and baby at once, wow, why in the world risk a thing?

After the baby is a bit older, sure. Watch the dogs, see how they are reacting, and move forward with caution for all. 

How in the world would you not make protecting your child and the dogs you love a priority and not take risks? 

These deaths are so easy to prevent. I think people forget that dogs are predators and there is this myth that dogs somehow instinctively would never hurt a baby. Well, dogs are dogs and they might, even accidentally.

People need to be smart about their tiny newborns and their dogs. I see no reason why my dogs wouldn't be fine with a baby, but why why why risk a thing? 

Maybe it's due to a general lack of understanding of dogs as predator. The photos and videos of dogs sitting with tiny babies or being sat on by toddlers are all over the place. This idea that a dog should tolerate anything a child dishes out is wrong and dangerous and unfair to the dog. 

I expect and have seen tolerance from my dogs for kids antics. But, take it too far and you have a dead dog and a hurt kid. People need to get smarter about animal behavior. Know your breed, too. My dogs might be very cool with kids, but if the kids starts running, and screaming, and I'm not there, maybe they'd chase and nip at their pants. I just won't take any risks.

I think we (society we) are very confused by cartoons, bad "positive only" training, and the myth of dogs as furry babysitters. I have a good friend who allows their 2 year old to sit on the dog. The dog looked OK with it, but I made a mental note not to allow that kid to play with my dogs. My dogs are fine with kids, are gentle and play fetch, but it would be unfair to expect them to tolerate an unknown toddler playing bronco on their ribcage. Again, why risk it? There is little benefit and huge risk.


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## selzer

Muskeg said:


> I would never leave my newborn baby out with the dogs. It's all so new, maybe the dog goes to eat the poop in the baby's diaper and hurts the baby. Nothing would be more important to me than the baby, and to lose the dogs and baby at once, wow, why in the world risk a thing?
> 
> After the baby is a bit older, sure. Watch the dogs, see how they are reacting, and move forward with caution for all.
> 
> How in the world would you not make protecting your child and the dogs you love a priority and not take risks?
> 
> These deaths are so easy to prevent. I think people forget that dogs are predators and there is this myth that dogs somehow instinctively would never hurt a baby. Well, dogs are dogs and they might, even accidentally.
> 
> People need to be smart about their tiny newborns and their dogs. I see no reason why my dogs wouldn't be fine with a baby, but why why why risk a thing?
> 
> Maybe it's due to a general lack of understanding of dogs as predator. The photos and videos of dogs sitting with tiny babies or being sat on by toddlers are all over the place. This idea that a dog should tolerate anything a child dishes out is wrong and dangerous and unfair to the dog.
> 
> I expect and have seen tolerance from my dogs for kids antics. But, take it too far and you have a dead dog and a hurt kid. People need to get smarter about animal behavior. Know your breed, too. My dogs might be very cool with kids, but if the kids starts running, and screaming, and I'm not there, maybe they'd chase and nip at their pants. I just won't take any risks.
> 
> I think we (society we) are very confused by cartoons, bad "positive only" training, and the myth of dogs as furry babysitters. I have a good friend who allows their 2 year old to sit on the dog. The dog looked OK with it, but I made a mental note not to allow that kid to play with my dogs. My dogs are fine with kids, are gentle and play fetch, but it would be unfair to expect them to tolerate an unknown toddler playing bronco on their ribcage. Again, why risk it? There is little benefit and huge risk.


I think she did not feel she was leaving the baby out with dogs. I think the dogs were tied outside, and they had the doors open, it was hot, and she lay the baby down, and the dogs were either not tied or broke their chains, both of them, and we have a tragedy. 

It is impossible to have a baby that never, ever is left with the dog for even a moment. But at 3 days, yeah, no one should deliberately set that up. Keeping aggressive dogs when you have a baby, keeping dogs that will bite kids, it is such a risk. She knew the dogs were aggressive, but she thought they were outside. Poor baby. I don't know why so many people like these dogs, even if they are known to be aggressive. And yes, dogs will often pile on when there is an attack. Keeping an aggressive dog in this case means losing a baby and losing both dogs.


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## maxtmill

I agree, Muskeg - videos of kids climbing all over dogs is rampant on the internet. Not wise at all, in my opinion. Certain breeds were developed for certain purposes. My two Boxers from years ago were running in our fenced pasture one day, and to our shock, they began bull-baiting! One nipped at one of our cows' ankles, and when she put her head down to shoo him away, our other Boxer grabbed her by the nose. This continued until we got the dogs out of the pasture. Boxers were bred for bull-baiting. Pit bulls were bred to fight. Period.And stupid young guys breeding pits for size and ferocity have only made the situation worse.


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## jcm3

These stories are so sad. When our kids were young, we wanted a dog but I didn't want a dog that could kill our kids (our Shnauzer/Terrier mix would probably lick them to death, but would have a hard time hurting them if it wanted to) in a worst case scenario.


Now that our kids are older (9 year old and 11 year old twins), we wanted a dog that could help protect, or at least scare anyone off if it barked. So, we just got a female GSD from a breeder.


So sad that people are negligent enough to allow this to happen. Some may be innocent (but negligent), some plain stupid and negligent.


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## wolfy dog

llombardo said:


> No matter what breed it was, my guess is that this would have happened no matter what because these people had no clue about dogs period.


Ever heard of a Whippet killing a kid, Collie, poodle? I don't like stereo typing at all, but Pits seem to be a risk factor for people like this.
There are lot of other breeds being abused, chained etc by stupid people, but these dogs don't make it into the news.
The flip side is that responsible people tend not to have Pits at least I haven't met them in our area.


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## selzer

wolfy dog said:


> Ever heard of a Whippet killing a kid, Collie, poodle? I don't like stereo typing at all, but Pits seem to be a risk factor for people like this.
> There are lot of other breeds being abused, chained etc by stupid people, but these dogs don't make it into the news.
> The flip side is that responsible people tend not to have Pits at least I haven't met them in our area.


No fan of pit bulls, but 3 days old? 

I have heard of huskies killing kids, GSDs killing babies, a pappillion or Pomeranian killed an infant. It does happen with other breeds. One of the GSDs, was afraid of the lawn mower so the father stopped and put the dog inside not realizing the mom had put the baby on the floor. Another, a female shepherd, who are spectacular mothers, heard the baby crying or making noise and took it to the parents. Unfortunately it did not survive her method of carrying it. Infants have no chance at all against a dog. Any dog. It's a terribly sad story.

BTW, it was a schnauzer that bit my little sister twice when she was about 1 year old.


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## brookwoodgirl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The third three day old baby was killed by a terrier mix. Pit Bulls and their mixes only represent 6% of dogs owned. Two out of three fatal attacks on three day old babies for a fairly unpopular breed is not something one can chalk up to say any breed could have done it.


Re the "terrier mix", our shelters have renamed pit bulls as "terrier mixes" now rather than calling them pit bulls, even when they are obviously pit bulls - it's a description that is more likely to get them a second look by adoptees then to call them just pit bulls. Many people probably think of terriers as something smaller and cuter, Eddie from Frasier, Scruffy from the Ghost and Mrs Muir, etc, forgetting that pit bulls are terriers too.


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## CanineKarma

OLD POST BUT A Golden??????? Crazy! 

Dog killed ripped 2-month-old baby's legs off while father slept in other room: police - NY Daily News


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## selzer

See, it was a lab/golden mix. Even so. No charges here. baby dies. Other thread, dogs die = charges. Yeah, they aren't related, but still.


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## maxtmill

Jax08 said:


> Pitbulls are just the latest breed to be top of the list. Google the stats. You'll find that German Shepherds were the top in the 70s. Then Dobes. Then Rotts.
> 
> It would be great if we could keep the bully breed hating threads off this board.


I have owned bully breeds in the past, but never a pittbull. I currently have a French Bulldog that is a dog not for the faint of heart - he has lived every day of his 11 years with NILIF. So, I am not a bully breed hater. That being said, I would never own a pittbull. Breeds of dogs were developed and bred to perform certain tasks. Pitt bulls have unfortunately been poorly bred for years now by BYBs to fight. Period.


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## selzer

Jax08 said:


> Pitbulls are just the latest breed to be top of the list. Google the stats. You'll find that German Shepherds were the top in the 70s. Then Dobes. Then Rotts.
> 
> It would be great if we could keep the bully breed hating threads off this board.


Pit bulls do actually kill more than other breeds, even though their numbers are not as high as some of the more popular breeds. If we pretend that isn't true, then people take home dogs they have no business owning and tragedies like this one occur. 

I don't care about what dog breeds were targeted in the past. Even in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, no breed kills as many as pits do. It isn't even close. GSDs and their mixes in a 20 year period killed I think 17 country-wide. I would be surprised if pit bulls and their mixes do not kill that many in a year now, because it is getting worse, not better. In that period the pits and their mixes killed 66, though their overall popularity at that time was not nearly what it is today, nor close to GSDs. 

If we look honestly at the numbers and compare them to the population of each breed, then people would have more information and might choose a different breed. Maybe it would mean BSL in areas, or special licensing and housing and insuring requirements. I don't want to carry liability insurance, bonds, muzzle my dogs, pay extra to own the dog because one breed is out there causing a LOT of damage. We should look not only at deaths, but the accumulated cost of health care related to each breed when bites/attacks happen. I've been bitten by shepherds a number of times and have gone to the doctor a few times. I never needed plastic surgery. A stitch or two and a tetnus shot. 

Getting bit by a dog should be like a bicycle accident for a kid. A contusion, a puncture maybe. It shouldn't be internal organs hanging out, and people beating the dog off with a shovel. 

Yes, I don't like the breed. I am sick of people saying it is how you raise them. Every one that owns one that does something awful says, "I can't believe it, he never did anything like this before." Bull. People get these dogs because they have a rotten reputation and people want to look BAD. They are impressed by their power. They are impressed by their game-ness -- kind of like the way so many of us are impressed with how dogs hit the sleeve. Kind of how many of us have this breed because they are a formidable dog and people think twice before messing with them. But there is no contest when it comes to the damage the one breed does. We shouldn't let what is currently proper to say/think, let us mask facts because they might involve repercussions.


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## Gretchen

The two stories posted here, the one in Fresno and the one where the legs are ripped off - both examples of bad parenting. I would not leave a 3 day old baby on the couch, it would be with me or in a safe place for a baby - a crib or bassinet. The other child was left in a swing - I would definitely not leave a baby in swing and then go off to sleep. As much as I dislike govt coming into our life, maybe a parenting class should be offered in schools.


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## Julian G

I would never leave a baby with a huge dog like that, its very possible the dogs thought the baby was a chew toy, or a small animal. And I try to socialize my dogs with kids at an early age and teach them to be gentle just in case they ever do come in contact with a child.


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## cdwoodcox

I seen a pic on a GSD Facebook page a week ago of a new born baby leaning on a full grown gsd. The post said whatever name dog loves his new baby sister. I wanted to comment "The baby is not his sister, and I have seen how GSD's play with siblings. Your baby won't survive. Don't forget that a dog is a dog and your kid is a kid." But in a lot of people's eyes they have the perfect dog who can do no wrong. Until it does something wrong. People don't realize that a dog correcting baby or kid usually ends with a final correction involving teeth. And it's usually because the owners don't even realize the dog is giving warning after warning that go ignored.


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## selzer

It's been about 37 years since I've seen one, but a bassinette is no match for a formidable dog. 

If the lady owned/rented the house, knew the dogs were aggressive, she should have gotten rid of the dogs, or told her brother to go. She knew the dogs were aggressive, or one was. It only takes one -- the other will often follow. I am sorry, I know we love dogs, but, babies are more important, and it isn't going to happen for the kid to be raised for 5-7 years and never be close enough to the dog to incur serious injuries.

If the brother owned/rented the house (his dogs), and that was the best the sister could do, flop in with her newborn on her brother and his pit bulls, maybe she should have put the child up for adoption. If that were the case, than she couldn't support the child. 

Living with and infant and an aggressive pit bull, and another pit bull or mixes thereof, is just a disaster waiting to happen. 

So bloody sad.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Dog that attacked and killed child near Desert Inn and Hollywood has been euthanized | KSNV


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## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dog that attacked and killed child near Desert Inn and Hollywood has been euthanized | KSNV


How terribly sad.


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> How terribly sad.


Other years bully breeds average one fatality every ten days, this year it is up to every seven days. Just a few days ago a woman who was some kind of degreed dog behaviorist lost her life to her boyfriend's Pit Bull.


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## LuvShepherds

I can't even read this stuff anymore. It's too upsetting. I was out the other day and saw four different people with their dogs. All four were pit mixes. I wonder if they even know what they own. Probably think they are boxers or labs based on the colors.


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## Muskeg

What has changed to increase deadly attacks? 

Has there been a shift in the genetics, numbers, understanding of dog behavior and dog handling/management or something else?


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## MineAreWorkingline

You can thank your shelters for lying to push them out the door. The sad part is other people's pets will be attacked or worse so shelters can be no kill.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> What has changed to increase deadly attacks?
> 
> Has there been a shift in the genetics, numbers, understanding of dog behavior and dog handling/management or something else?


Shelters have been deliberately mislabeling them as Lab and Hound mixes for one thing. Too much "how you raise and train them" pushed by humane organizations.


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## selzer

I think it is a mixture of bad breeding, and lack of knowing how to tie your shoes when it comes to dogs. We see people all the time that shouldn't own a guppy, trying to raise shepherd puppies, and can't potty train them or stop them from mouthing. We see dogs out of control because people are applying touchy-feely-human attributes to dogs and trying to lead/manage them this way. 

But when you have dogs that were created and used for blood sports, ignorant breeding and ignorant ownership is going to net you some serious problems. 

But that is just my opinion, and I don't know very much about pits, because I don't have a dog in this fight. I just see the reports and the deaths, and am irritated when they liken the hysteria over the breed to that of GSDs, with the implication that in the 70s it was GSDs killing people all over.


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## selzer

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Shelters have been deliberately mislabeling them as Lab and Hound mixes for one thing. Too much "how you raise and train them" pushed by humane organizations.


And this (mislabeling them) should be a criminal offense. 

Did you all see the lovely cat some humane official was trying to adopt out, and within moments it attacked and bit him. They aren't necessarily experts. 

In Ashtabula, Ohio, it has been against the law to own the breed for years. But now they have changed it to say you can adopt one from a shelter that has passed a temperament test, but you cannot get one from a breeder. Whatever. I just don't think the volunteers at the shelter really can say what dogs might attack under what sort of handling and what dogs won't.


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## MineAreWorkingline

selzer said:


> And this (mislabeling them) should be a criminal offense.
> 
> Did you all see the lovely cat some humane official was trying to adopt out, and within moments it attacked and bit him. They aren't necessarily experts.
> 
> In Ashtabula, Ohio, it has been against the law to own the breed for years. But now they have changed it to say you can adopt one from a shelter that has passed a temperament test, but you cannot get one from a breeder. Whatever. I just don't think the volunteers at the shelter really can say what dogs might attack under what sort of handling and what dogs won't.


Too many shelter Pits have passed temperament tests, been adopted out, mauled and even killed, were brought back to the shelter only to pass the test again.


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## LuvShepherds

Muskeg said:


> What has changed to increase deadly attacks?
> 
> Has there been a shift in the genetics, numbers, understanding of dog behavior and dog handling/management or something else?


This is just my observation but the shelters I monitor when asked by a rescue have more pits and pit mixes than anything else. They call them by other breed names, so people have no idea what they are adopting. There are more trainers pushing the idea that anyone can rescue a dog and any rescue can be trained. So a lot of people who know nothing about dogs are getting dogs they can't handle. Add that to poorly bred dogs with unstable temperaments and more dogs left alone all day, it's a recipe for senseless accidents. 

When I got my first dog as a teenager, there was one local training option, a man working at a park with 20 years experience. Now, in store trainers are like Starbucks. There are dog trainers on every corner, or at least in every pet store. With my last rescue, an 18 yr old girl handed me her card in a Petco and offered me a free socialization class. I decided to go to help her out because she said no one was showing up. She was giving me advice about my rescued puppy and I had to try very hard not to laugh, because it was nothing I could use at all. She asked if it was my first dog. I told her a quick rundown of my dog ownership and rescue experience, and she said, I can't teach you anything new. These are the trainers the pet stores are putting out there. It's not surprising they can't handle challenging dogs. She had no experience outside of her short training course.


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## Baillif

The biggest factor is probably their popularity. It's the hipster dog of choice here.

The boarding and daycare side accepts them and we are probably the only one anywhere around here that does. Many of them are stable enough to go into group play but they all get watched like Hawks. I take special precautions when introducing them to other dogs. There is a definite breed tendency for them to fight or provoke one. 

They're usually annoying to train because when they have a problem it's 100 times worse than with another breed of dog. On top of that since the hipsters have started to coddle them there's a big chance you have a super weak handler paired with a strong insensitive dog that has learned how to get his way and that's a pain to deal with mostly because of the human.

There are some cool ones too. I actually prefer the gamey ones to the super weak shake in a corner neurotic ones.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> The biggest factor is probably their popularity. It's the hipster dog of choice here.
> 
> The boarding and daycare side accepts them and we are probably the only one anywhere around here that does. Many of them are stable enough to go into group play but they all get watched like Hawks. I take special precautions when introducing them to other dogs. *There is a definite breed tendency for them to fight or provoke one. *
> 
> They're usually annoying to train because when they have a problem it's 100 times worse than with another breed of dog. On top of that since the hipsters have started to coddle them there's a big chance you have a super weak handler paired with a strong insensitive dog that has learned how to get his way and that's a pain to deal with mostly because of the human.
> 
> There are some cool ones too. I actually prefer the gamey ones to the super weak shake in a corner neurotic ones.


Thanks for posting this. One of the biggest fallacies today among the "hipsters" or Pit Bull mommies is that Pit Bulls don't tend to start fights, but when attacked, will finish them.

I have personally witnessed dozens of Pit Bull attacks, many on my own dogs, and not one single time did the other dog initiate the fight. Although I am sure there are some exceptions to the rule, IME and that of many people I know, it was ALWAYS the Pit that started the fight.


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## Muskeg

Interesting, I was thinking the same, that it's not just the tough guys but the hipster types getting pitbulls now.

But I still find the increase in attacks puzzling.


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## MadLab

> Interesting...... it's not just the tough guys but the hipster types getting pitbulls now.


And don't forget the ********.

And maybe some normal decent people too. 

lol


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## Muskeg

True, MadLab. There are plenty of "normal" people who go adopt a pit bull from the shelter. 

In fact, I think that may be the biggest factor. Shelters are mostly pit bulls these days. A family goes to adopt a dog, and a pit bull is what they get.

Good point.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> Interesting, I was thinking the same, that it's not just the tough guys but the hipster types getting pitbulls now.
> 
> But I still find the increase in attacks puzzling.


Maybe it has to do with the number of "popular" trainers promoting "a dog is just a dog", especially those that "specialize" in aggressive dogs. If they spoke the truth as Baillif just did, they might find themselves afflicted with a condition called "skinny wallets" as people might start choosing more "user friendly" breeds.


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## Baillif

I don't think that has anything to do with it. User friendly breeds end up in training all the time for behaviors that are more annoyances than anything else.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Baillif said:


> I don't think that has anything to do with it. User friendly breeds end up in training all the time for behaviors that are more annoyances than anything else.


If I understand you correctly, then you are saying that if "those" trainers would be honest about breed behavior and that resulted in a shift to more "user friendly breeds, then there would just be a shift in the type of problems "those" trainers would be handling rather than a loss of business.

So why the dishonesty among them?

I just read a few days ago that among Scott and Fullers findings, that the dogs they used in their studies, which were not random purebreds but wellbreds that were temperamentally representative specimens of their respective breeds, that although there are variations in temperaments within breeds, there are very marked behavioral differences between breeds themselves. So a dog is not just a dog. Why not be honest about it?


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## Baillif

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If I understand you correctly, then you are saying that if "those" trainers would be honest about breed behavior and that resulted in a shift to more "user friendly breeds, then there would just be a shift in the type of problems "those" trainers would be handling rather than a loss of business.
> 
> So why the dishonesty among them?
> 
> I just read a few days ago that among Scott and Fullers findings, that the dogs they used in their studies, which were not random purebreds but wellbreds that were temperamentally representative specimens of their respective breeds, that although there are variations in temperaments within breeds, there are very marked behavioral differences between breeds themselves. So a dog is not just a dog. Why not be honest about it?


I don't know. Pitbull and pit mixes are not that common an occurance in board and train here. There have been quite a few but it's maybe 1 out of 20 dogs or so. They are not a huge money maker. Most people probably just regurgitate what the Pitbull propagandists say or assume they've been used for fighting or subjects of abuse when it's (usually) really crap temperament.

It really isn't that uncommon a trait for any breed of dog to want to fight strange dogs though. It is part of the ethology of the animal. There is a biological imperative to defending oneself and ones territory from invaders that live off the same natural resources. Where the Pitbull becomes a problem was certain groups of people selected for this trait and enhanced it, and then also created a strong insensitive animal also. Just a bad combination.


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## Muskeg

I don't know really, just speculating. 

But since usually the victims are kids known to the dog, I wonder. Wasn't there a recent study showing that the canine genes for human aggression to known humans vs. the genes for human aggression to strangers are completely different?

Seems to me that somehow, through rescue, adoption, over-breeding, dogs with the genes to attack their own handlers/owners AND genes to attack strangers are ending up in family homes, and that is the root of the issue.


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## LuvShepherds

There is a very popular trainer from AZ who has a national radio show who promotes that any dog from any shelter can be saved and trained. He said he proved it by taking the first dog he saw in a shelter from a hoarding situation and trained it. It was not a pit and he has been training dogs for 40 years. He started out training mostly German Shepherds.. He said it bothers him when he sees people using training collars on dogs. I used to respect his opinions, now I think he is just dangerous. That kind of promotion without warning people about how to select a dog from a shelter or rescue leads to disasters.

A woman was telling me her young adult daughter's male dog attacked another dog on a walk in a crowded area and would not let go. Her daughter didn't have any idea what to do because the dog, which was a rescue, was very easy and gentle at home. The other dog's owner finally kicked her dog away and upset her. This young woman lives in an apartment, the dog is locked up all day with no interactions and only sees dogs on walks. She had the dog for six months, when it attacked without warning. I asked her what kind of dog it was and she said they had always had labs so her daughter picked the lab from the shelter. The man whose dog was attacked told her the dog was a pitbull. Until he told her, she thought it was a lab mix. It may have been part lab, I haven't seen the dog. I didn't see her again so I don't know the outcome, but the woman thought that her daughter paid the vet bills and kept the dog. She was upset that the man wasn't understanding after his dog was injured. This is an unintended consequence of the new attitude. How does someone get a pit mix from a shelter, own it for six months and not know what they have? Why would a dog owner whose dog bit another dog get upset with the other dog's owner?


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## selzer

Pits are intelligent dogs and loyal dogs. (Though I have never had one, and that is all I hear form people who have them.) It is possible, that many live without any outside training because they are quick to pick up where their owner wants them to potty, and what their owner wants for them to do. 

I think a LOT of people wait until the teenager stage when their dog is becoming a handful to seek out any type of training. So if the people with pits are happy with the way their dog naturally acts, maybe they aren't seeking out training for the most part, unless the dog is already having issues. 

But I do think that shelters/humane orgainizations, and the pit bull lobby own some of the blame to the increase in violence by these dogs: 

As has been mentioned, shelters pawn the dogs off as something else, a lab-pit cross becomes a pit mix. A JRT-pit cross might become a lab mix, and so on. Sometimes they really don't know but they don't want to label the dog a pit-mix because that will turn some potential buyers off. But more than that, they have made adopting shelter dogs a type of religious pinnacle. The closer to death the dog is, either due to serious physical condition, or because of room in the shelter, or because of their behavior and need for the right home, the closer to God you as the adopter bring yourself. People who buy dogs from breeders, are right next to Lucifer himself. They have news articles out there comparing "adopting from a shelter" and "buying from a breeder" where they list all the money you will have to shell out for training and food and vet care if you buy from a breeder, because shelter dogs are somehow dynamos when it comes to health and well-being, the only major expenditure a dog should have -- spay/neuter is already done for you. They can also eat Ole Roy for 17 years and die peacefully in their sleep. And they need no training at all or a cheap class for $40, where there purebred cousins require thousands. 

I have read this article. The idea of course is to encourage people to hit their local shelter first when getting a pet. I have heard remarks parroted here and everywhere -- I will always get my dog from a shelter; if I needed a dog for some purpose, then maybe I would go to a breeder. And so on. 

But this is not about shelters and breeders. It is simply about the way a proportion of the people out there nowadays see getting a specific breed of dog over getting a needy mutt from the shelter, how it is superior/makes you a better person to adopt a mix. A lot of people have taken up the cause and turned their noses up at friends, relatives, and complete strangers for owning a purebred or for obtaining their dog from a breeder. (BTW, it is improper in the current society to use the words adopt and breeder in the same sentence; as it is to use the words buy and shelter.)

This atmosphere drives the young pet-seeking public to shelters to get pets. And what is at the shelters?


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## selzer

Ok. Breeders are often involved in breed rescue, and breed clubs, and so many breeds have rescues scoping out shelters to ensure their breeds do not end up gassed, heart stuck, or even on the wrong end of a needle. This is a good thing. But if you walk through your local shelter, you will often see signs on cages saying that the dog is being held until a rescue that has agreed to take him, takes him -- all the shepherds, or maybe they leave one or two at the shelter with severe cage aggression. Those dogs the shelter is not going to sell -- too much liability. If their owner does not show up and claim them, then the no-kill shelter will kill them. 

And other breeds have their rescue groups. 

A lot of small breeds do not make it to the shelter because they are easy enough to find homes for on Craig's list, or through Facebook postings. And Uncle Lois' little dog was loved by half the family, and will go to Aunt Dot. 

What you have left in shelters are big black dogs, pit bulls, and medium-large dogs that have behavioral issues: biting labs; a weak-nerved golden that the golden rescue didn't have a foster for; a few half-feral hounds. Lots and lots of pit bulls. Pit bull puppies. Pit bull adults. Pit bulls of the color of your choice. They are tidy -- don't look like they will shed themselves three times over all over your furniture and clothes in the next month. They may even behave better in a shelter environment than the shepherds going crazy in the back, and old sick golden totally depressed and missing her family.

The pit bull lobby -- they ought to know better. No, they do not want BSL. But dubbing these dogs "nanny-dogs" so uncool. Everyone says, "Remember Petie?" Well, yes, he was a pit bull. And as often as not he was chewing into someone in that show. That kind of dog ownership couldn't happen in the US today. That kind of parenting wouldn't go far either. They claim it is how it is raised, not the breed. But then, maybe they ought to get their shtuff together because the breed is racking up points and people are getting tired of it. 

Shepherd people are just as likely to dissuade people from getting a shepherd. They understand the breed has requirements when it comes to an owner. A weak owner who lacks confidence is going to probably have problems raising a shepherd. Why? Because the dogs are smart, and they sense a lack of confidence and it makes them uneasy. Constant weakness in an owner will make a decent dog make some bad decisions, and it could make a nervy dog dangerous. 

The pit bull lobby pretty much go around encouraging everyone to have these dogs. They are so loyal, so intelligent, so cute, so sweet, so good with the kids, such great companions, that they cannot imagine anyone who should not own one. The valiantly defend their breed. And they will prove to everyone how right they are, by having their kids interact with their dogs failing to believe the dog capable of doing any harm. 

I must admit, I feel the same way about my sheps. My brother tells me he is afraid they will find me attacked and killed by my dogs -- insanity. Total and complete insanity. My dogs will lick me to death maybe. Their hard heads might plow into me and kill me, but they will never viciously attack me. I know this. 

Not only are people encouraged to get pit bulls and their mixes, but it is the fashion to have dogs, not a dog. It is infrequent that a single dog attacks and kills. Yes, get the right dog and it will attack. But the other dogs then jump into the fray. Here you are thinking you have 5 dogs that would jump off a precipice into the abyss for you, and they are ALL attacking. Because we forget sometimes that they are dogs first.

I have a bunch of dogs. But I don't let 14 run around together -- that's nuts. Mostly they are kenneled, individually, or in pairs. I have a mother and two young bitches together. But I think we forget that when we have one dog or two dogs, they are pets. When we have more dogs running together, 3 sometimes, 4 and more, it becomes a pack. And pack dynamics are different. Weaker temperaments will follow the strong dog. If that strong dog has solid temperament and nerve, then the pack will probably be fairly stable. If the strong dog has a screw loose, has it in him to attack humans, than watch out, it is a disaster just waiting to happen. 

People that shouldn't own a guppy are owning 4 or 5 or more dogs and letting them all run together like a big happy family, and are treating them like furry kids rather than dogs. And often give in to the dogs -- "He doesn't like his toenails trimmed, so we have to have the vet do it under sedation." "He doesn't like me to hug people, so I don't." Instead of defining the lines between human and animal (something else that is frowned on in this culture), they are letting the animal dictate behavior and that way peace of sorts is maintained. When really, the dog has issues that aren't being addressed and in the right scenario will be played out and become tragic for the dog, probably, and for the people possibly. 

Dogs are family. Nope, they are not. But we do make our decisions based on the responsibility we have when we own a pet. So yes, I think maybe we turn down a promotion if it means 25% more travel and we own an animal that we don't want boarded that much or can't be boarded. But not because the animal is family. We blur the lines. We say we will save our dog over people -- that's nuts. When we see a dog like a little furry kid, we might allow behaviors by our "skin-kid" baby, infant, because we aren't seeing this predator clearly. Pit bulls are tough. A kid might sit on them, hug them, ride on them without hurting them. Tough little buggers. But letting that happen, watching that happen, gives us a false sense of security with the dog around the kids. He would never, he's great with kids. 

And 3-day-old babies are infants/newborns, not kids. It is a whole other creature. It smells different than the other kids. It cries different. Its helplessness might trigger a prey drive in some dogs. I don't know. I'm not a dog. Do dogs get jealous. Yes, they have something very similar to our emotion of jealousy, much more raw and primal. But I cannot say that a dog that attacks a baby is jealous. It is just a possibility. A dog might sniff a disease or cancer, and kill the baby for that reason. The dog might see the baby as prey and kill it for that reason. The baby might just be there, and the dog being curious sniffs, presses on it, it elicits a different kind of noise and ramps the dog up. Who knows. Forgetting that these are dogs can be fatal to human babies.


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## voodoolamb

> What has changed to increase deadly attacks?
> 
> Has there been a shift in the genetics, numbers, understanding of dog behavior and dog handling/management or something else?


Hip Hop culture gave the fatal blow. 

Rescue culture put the final nail in the coffin. 

Back before the 80's pit bulls were non issues. They were either owned by dogmen, bred and used for fighting - the fighting pits never caused problems because it would bring to light their owner's illegal activities. Or they were owned under the am staff monitor by the AKC show people who are generally a responsible bunch of owners so they didn't cause problems. 

Then hip hop culture exploded. The artists and the fans embraced and celebrated criminal activity - including dog fighting. They start airing music videos of rappers with big stacks of cash, fast cars, beautiful women, and a pit bulls. Pit bulls surged in popularity, but their popularity was with those type of people who had no business owning any dog. 

Then the bad breeding practices started. BYBs started throwing together dogs to get the popular colors and heavier muscling. And even more concerning they started selecting for dogs that did show human aggression. Many tried to turn pits into guard dogs. As protection is not their nature at all - it was the unstable dogs that were bred. It's what their buyers wanted. Big tough macho dogs.

Of course the people who bought dogs because it was on mtv weren't/aren't exactly the responsible type of dog owners. So shelter numbers also exploded. 

Then enter the rescue people and their desire to save the dogs and abolish kill shelters. Pits are great dogs. It's not a surprise the rescuers latched on and made them their cause. Pits became the misunderstood love bugs. People love the underdog. The outcast. So they began to attract another type of irresponsible owner - the ones who believe they can love all their problems away. And the shelter pits, boy do they have problems. Bad genetics from the last 30 years of bad breeding. 

their very nature of even a well bred pit makes them poor choices for the vast majority of the dog owning community though. Even people experienced with dogs in general aren't ready for pits. Many of the warning signs for impending aggression were bred out. Dogmen didn't want their gladiators wasting time and energy on threat displays. Pits are hard to read, tenacious, strong willed, with genetic aggression. To say they are not for everyone is an understatement. 

They aren't the only breeds like this - there are many breeds just as, if not more, dangerous than pits - other bull and molosser breeds. Some of the LSG types - they are just no where near as popular and first the most part stay in responsible hands.

I loved my pits. They are some of the best dogs I have ever known. And no. I did not get them because I wanted to look bad. I didn't get them because I wanted a macho dog. I was volunteering with an all breed rescue and fell in love with the ones I met through there. I did learn to appreciate their gameness. I actually found that the true fighting line pits were much more stable so I ended up taking ex fighters as my own personal pets. They were well managed and never caused issue. 

I ended up leaving the rescue community - with a big part if my exit being due to the pit bull issue. I got to the point where I was incredibly tough on which pits were spared the needle. The community got pretty nasty towards me. 

It's a problem that has no easy solution.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Muskeg said:


> I don't know really, just speculating.
> 
> But since usually the victims are kids known to the dog, I wonder. Wasn't there a recent study showing that the canine genes for human aggression to known humans vs. the genes for human aggression to strangers are completely different?
> 
> Seems to me that somehow, through rescue, adoption, over-breeding, dogs with the genes to attack their own handlers/owners AND genes to attack strangers are ending up in family homes, and that is the root of the issue.


Any chance to a link on that study?


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## Muskeg

Here is a start: 

Dog Fear and Aggression Genes Related to Human Anxiety | GEN News Highlights | GEN


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## MineAreWorkingline

voodoolamb said:


> Hip Hop culture gave the fatal blow.
> 
> Rescue culture put the final nail in the coffin.
> 
> Back before the 80's pit bulls were non issues. They were either owned by dogmen, bred and used for fighting - the fighting pits never caused problems because it would bring to light their owner's illegal activities. Or they were owned under the am staff monitor by the AKC show people who are generally a responsible bunch of owners so they didn't cause problems.
> 
> Then hip hop culture exploded. The artists and the fans embraced and celebrated criminal activity - including dog fighting. They start airing music videos of rappers with big stacks of cash, fast cars, beautiful women, and a pit bulls. Pit bulls surged in popularity, but their popularity was with those type of people who had no business owning any dog.
> 
> Then the bad breeding practices started. BYBs started throwing together dogs to get the popular colors and heavier muscling. And even more concerning they started selecting for dogs that did show human aggression. Many tried to turn pits into guard dogs. As protection is not their nature at all - it was the unstable dogs that were bred. It's what their buyers wanted. Big tough macho dogs.
> 
> Of course the people who bought dogs because it was on mtv weren't/aren't exactly the responsible type of dog owners. So shelter numbers also exploded.
> 
> Then enter the rescue people and their desire to save the dogs and abolish kill shelters. Pits are great dogs. It's not a surprise the rescuers latched on and made them their cause. Pits became the misunderstood love bugs. People love the underdog. The outcast. So they began to attract another type of irresponsible owner - the ones who believe they can love all their problems away. And the shelter pits, boy do they have problems. Bad genetics from the last 30 years of bad breeding.
> 
> their very nature of even a well bred pit makes them poor choices for the vast majority of the dog owning community though. Even people experienced with dogs in general aren't ready for pits. Many of the warning signs for impending aggression were bred out. Dogmen didn't want their gladiators wasting time and energy on threat displays. Pits are hard to read, tenacious, strong willed, with genetic aggression. To say they are not for everyone is an understatement.
> 
> They aren't the only breeds like this - there are many breeds just as, if not more, dangerous than pits - other bull and molosser breeds. Some of the LSG types - they are just no where near as popular and first the most part stay in responsible hands.
> 
> I loved my pits. They are some of the best dogs I have ever known. And no. I did not get them because I wanted to look bad. I didn't get them because I wanted a macho dog. I was volunteering with an all breed rescue and fell in love with the ones I met through there. I did learn to appreciate their gameness. I actually found that the true fighting line pits were much more stable so I ended up taking ex fighters as my own personal pets. They were well managed and never caused issue.
> 
> I ended up leaving the rescue community - with a big part if my exit being due to the pit bull issue. I got to the point where I was incredibly tough on which pits were spared the needle. The community got pretty nasty towards me.
> 
> It's a problem that has no easy solution.


One thing I would like to add to this is that the Pits' popularity explosion coincided with the passage of laws to make dog fighting illegal. Rescues and shelters were then faced with what to do with hundreds of Pits from all these dog fighting busts. Many were very human friendly and rescue / shelter employees in their infinite ignorance about dogs, or should I say for some, willful ignorance, decided rather than have the blood on their hands of so many human friendly Pits, they decided to promote them as good family dogs, a dog is just a dog, it is all in how you raise and train them. When these propagandists were called out on "how you raise and train them", as these Pits were raised and trained to fight, the propaganda slowly turned to "curing" dogs of their genetics, and that is a topic that has been discussed in depth on other threads.


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## LuvShepherds

MineAreWorkingline said:


> One thing I would like to add to this is that the Pits' popularity explosion coincided with the passage of laws to make dog fighting illegal. Rescues and shelters were then faced with what to do with hundreds of Pits from all these dog fighting busts. Many were very human friendly and rescue / shelter employees in their infinite ignorance about dogs, or should I say for some, willful ignorance, decided rather than have the blood on their hands of so many human friendly Pits, they decided to promote them as good family dogs, a dog is just a dog, it is all in how you raise and train them. When these propagandists were called out on "how you raise and train them", as these Pits were raised and trained to fight, the propaganda slowly turned to "curing" dogs of their genetics, and that is a topic that has been discussed in depth on other threads.


I don't want to blame rescues or shelters for doing what they think is right. If they are there to save dogs and the dogs they are getting are all pitbulls, they are doing what they are there to do. There are rescue groups that handle only pitbulls and they tend to be more responsible because they will get the dogs back if they don't place them well.


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## MineAreWorkingline

LuvShepherds said:


> I don't want to blame rescues or shelters for doing what they think is right. If they are there to save dogs and the dogs they are getting are all pitbulls, they are doing what they are there to do. There are rescue groups that handle only pitbulls and they tend to be more responsible because they will get the dogs back if they don't place them well.


Shelters and rescues don't have the right to blatantly lie to adopters, not unless they want to be held liable in a lawsuit. If somebody point blank does NOT want a specific breed or its mix, it is not up to shelters and rescues to play God and force their will on other people. 

And the lives they save may be that of the Pit Bulls but don't forget all the innocent pets owned by the adoptive families and in the neighborhood that lose their lives because shelters and rescues deceived families into not only adopting a dangerous breed but one the adoptive family was ill prepared to manage and control let alone have the desire to take on such a project.

It is estimated that Pit Bulls kill approximately 50,000 innocent cats and dogs each and every year.


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## Baillif

The whole Pitbull threat display thing being bred out is a myth.

What's really happening is the dogs attack out of prey drive. Dogs don't posture on their prey they just run in there grab it take over and kill it as quickly as possible. They look all happy and excited because it's like OOOH prey! 

When you're training a fighting dog you don't want it posturing and showing threat displays. You want it running in there dominating and taking over as quickly as possible. The people that know what they are doing want them flying in for the kill from the get go. Attacking is a foregone conclusion. It starts with prey drive but after that it's just straight up fight drive. They don't come up all timid evaluating the other dog like are we gonna fight? They're out to kill from the second they see them. When you see cases of pits killing kids guess what? Usually they saw that kid as a prey item. Go back and look at the vid of that dog that went for that kid but got thwarted by a cat. That dog was hunting a child. It wasn't defending territory. It was hunting.

People think they are hard to read but they aren't. If you can recognize a dog locked on and fixated in prey you can read a gamey pit.


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## dogma13

IME observing pits I can't read their intent unless I'm in a position to see their eyes.Their body posture doesn't change,ears don't move forward,mouth remains open and relaxed,tail slowly waving.But the eyes lock on intently and then the lunge.


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## WillCorw

sad and threatening as well :c


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