# I know, Done to DEATH but please share your opinions.



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

OMG My head is spinning. I've just been searching this forum and reading kibble thread after kibble thread...and then searching the 'net for ingredients, analysis, etc. Ooof. I know this has been beaten to DEATH, but there's sooo much information it's hard to make sense of it. 

So the thing is, Rocket is on Orijen LBP. He will be 9 months on the 15th. He is doing ok on the Orijen, but he doesn't love it. He still sometimes has diarrhea. No biggie because he's had Kennel Cough and is on antibiotics. But I kind of have been looking for something else. 

1) How long does the calcium thing hold? 1 year? 2 years?

2) If he's been grain free, should I keep him there, or does it matter? I've fed grain free for the last 7-8 years. But Wellness Super5 mix looked pretty good to me.

3) Here are a couple of foods I found interesting but I can't find any calcium information on them. 
Great Life Dog Food

Super Premium Dog Food & Cat Food | NutriSource (this one also has an organic line I REALLY like--also the PureVita looked good too)

To be honest, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if I could find a food a little less expensive than the Orijen, but I'm not going to freak out about $10-15 cheaper either. 

Thoughts? Opinions? 



As a side note: He has been battling this kennel cough for two months now, and is on cephalexin and is almost done. Went back to the vet today, he looks good, lungs sound good, but still coughs at night. Not lots, but still does. He said the next step is chest xrays if it doesn't clear up in a week or so. I read somewhere in all this food searching someone here said their dog retched when they ate salmon. Just thinking...


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We went through several brands before we found 1 that all 8 GSDs (and one Lancashire Heeler) could eat. We went with Nature's Variety Instinct Chicken. They use Tapioca which is what swayed us finally. DH did all kinds of reading and found that tapioca was good if you have dogs with sensitive tummies or allergy issues (we had a few of each). So far, so good. It is just about 2 years that we switched and are still very happy with it. 
Do some reading on Tapioca and dog digestion. If I recall correctly, tapioca is a starch but is gluten free which works with some dogs prone to digestive issues.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I looked at that, but the calcium level is over 2%--- doesn't that make it unsuitable for him? Or is he past that now?

Also: if he does not appear to have any sensitivities or allergies right now, should I use a food like that? I've heard then you don't have anything to fall back on if they develop them later.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Honestly... use what works! You don't have to buy the most expensive food, just try out something that looks good to you, and see how they do on it. My dogs mainly eat Kirkland (Nature's Domain) kibble, which is quite inexpensive, but they do very well on it. Don't be afraid to use "cheaper" food, as long as the ingredient list and analysis is appropriate.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Can't comment on the foods just on the salmon in general.

Woolf did salmon (different brand) for a while, did good on it. I just couldn't handle it any longer. It just made him smell BAD, not gassy bad, just bad overall. Changed the protein and the smell went away. Never thought about food having this kind of affect.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Rocket doesn't have any problems on the Orijen, with smelling, he just doesn't love it. 

Freestep, I agree, just wondering about including grain. And about the calcium thing.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I have raised of the 8 GSDs we have been feeding the Nature's Variety, 5 of them have been pups or juveniles and have had no issues. I tend to keep all young dogs pretty lean which I think has a lot to do with joint development. 
If your dog is prone to allergies, it can develop an allergy to pretty much anything. Over exposure and ingredients regardless. When I was a vet asst I think the biggest food allergy we saw was chicken, but yet it does fine for ours. I'm pretty convinced that a combo of things create an overexposure allergy more than the one ingredient itself. That is , cheap dog food that is chicken based created a bunch of chicken issues but I think more because of the other crap in the food. The body sees chicken as the biggest ingredient and focuses on that, but it is because of all the other crap sending the body into fits! For example, I'm allergic to eggs, but have figured out after 20 years ( I didn't become allergic until I was a teenager) that I can eat stuff with eggs in it as long as I don't combine it with chicken or too high a concentrate of whites. Chicken egg drop soup is a no no, as is chicken pot pie with an egg white based gravy, but I can eat angel food cake which is mostly eggs! Go figure.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

He is a little on the lean side.  The vet said he could gain a couple lbs, but at 8 months he kind of stopped eating in that his growth slowed down. Then the KC, but he's gained 4lbs in the last month. He's now 76.2.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are looking for something with decent ingredients and a cheaper price tag, check out 4Health, sold at tractor supply. 

I feed the 35# bag of Chicken and rice. 11 dogs are doing good on it. The cost is $29.00

Ingredients: Chicken, chicken meal, cracked pearled barley, millet, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), beet pulp, natural chicken flavor, flaxseed, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, Yucca schidigera extract, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid

Analysis:
TSC - 4Health Dog Food Chicken and Rice Formula

The large breed lists out the calcium/phosphorus levels


I also feed the lamb and rice, and chicken and rice cans under certain circumstances -- pregnant bitches. Cans are 99 cents. 

4health Chicken & Rice Formula Dog Food, 13.2 oz. - 1159234 | Tractor Supply Company

It is only sold at tractor supply and the kibble is probably made by diamond, but so is TOTW, and so many others. My dogs are doing well on it.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Just to put it out there, I have never seen a Tractor Supply here-- we have a local farm supply store called Aslin Finch. They probably carry the same things-- but they're not any cheaper than the locally owned small pet food store I go to. She carries the food I linked in my first post. She might even carry the 4health v


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I have a friend that feeds Great Life, G.F. Buffalo to her 3 dogs. (Adult male Malinois, adult male Dutch Shepherd and a little mini Dashshund puppy.) All do well on it.

My only thought is since Buffalo is the first ingredient, instead of buffalo meal, how much meat is REALLY in it? Second ingredient Tapioca, then Jicama.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Some dogs do just fine on grains, others not so much. All you can do is try it and see how your dogs do on it. Dogs have probably been eating grains for as long as humans have, so the majority of dogs will probably tolerate it just fine--I think the new "grain-free" craze is mainly a marketing thing. I have noticed that Vinca has a little firmer stool when on the Nature's Domain (grain-free) than she did with the Diamond (has barley and rice), but it makes no difference at all to Luka. Both dogs will gladly gobble up anything put in front of them, so I don't have to worry about whether they will *like* a certain type of kibble.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, I saw this too. Honestly, if I were to go just by ingredients, I love the Orijen. I just wish Rocket did too. He eats it, just not with excitement. 

@ BlackGSD. 

You're probably right Freestep.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

So is the general consensus that I shouldn't worry too much anymore about the calcium?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

There are no Tractor Suppily stores in WA.
Dels Feed and Farm suppily is affiliated with TSC. But the CLOSEST one to you is in Lewiston.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I love him to death, but that's a bit far, lol.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Personally I WOULD. While it may not hurt him to "not worry about calcium". It dang sure won't hurt him to keep the calcium low until he is 12 months old either.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

rocketdog said:


> i love him to death, but that's a bit far, lol.


lol


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> Personally I WOULD. While it may not hurt him to "not worry about calcium". It dang sure won't hurt him to keep the calcium low until he is 12 months old either.


My plan originally was to keep him on Orijen until a year, then maybe switch him. It IS important to me to keep him growing as slowly and properly because I'd like him to do some running with me.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

What's the price like on the PureVita? Notice though that the BIGGEST bag is only 25lbs. :rolleyes2:


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Also wanted to say that I personally don't have a problem feeding foods WITH grains. (Even though I feed TOTW.) I wouldn't worry about feeling like you NEED to stay grain free.(Unless you want to.)


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I didn't look at the price on the bag there at the store--I wanted to check the calcium levels. Which I don't think the website showed, so I'll have to call them if I want to consider it. I doubt it's really any cheaper than Orijen.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

That figures. (on both counts.)

Great Life is pretty spendy too I think. Don't know how it compares to Orijen as there are none of these kibbles around HERE!!


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## Rallhaus (May 17, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> He still sometimes has diarrhea.


He may have giardia....


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, Spokane is a Mecca comparatively speaking, lol. 

He's had several stool samples checked, including one last week. (Since we do a lot of hiking, I randomly bring them in, because he used to eat lots of stuff on the trail.) All have been clear.  I think his diarrhea is related to the antibiotic he's on right now. And it's not bad, just loose. Thanks for keeping that in mind, though. He does like to drink out of streams when they're not frozen.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

You mentioned you wanted to try Wellness super 5, right? It's a pretty decent food, so give it a shot. Innova's another one similar to Wellness. 

There are plenty of dogs out there who do perfectly fine on grains. Give it a shot and see how it goes.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, Innova was the other one that looked good to me. My cats are on an Evo grain free (I don't have the bag in front of me, it's purple and chicken and turkey formula). My Labrador did great on Wellness Core for a long time.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

My dogs don't tolerate Wellness at all (shooters!). They do okay on Evo, but GREAT on California Naturals GF. I think the calcium level might be too high on the CN though.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We fed Evo beef prior to the Instinct. It did change when Proctor and Gamble bought the company which is one of the reasons we switched.


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## TaZoR (Jan 26, 2012)

I have a about 30 lbs of wellness that none of my dogs will touch. They hate it. I feed 4 health now from tractor supply..puppy. All are great with it.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I feed TOTW high prairie. Stools are firm, dogs still love the flavor and get excited for mealtime, good weight, nice coat and great energy levels. The price is reasonable for grain free. However, if I had the resources and time, I would feed raw. I think raw fed dogs have the best poops, great energy and healthy look.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree on the raw, but for the same reasons as you it's out of the question. Maybe some day when the three teens are out and I don't work 60+ hours a week... 

I also fed TOTW High Prairie to my lab. But the calcium level is too high--over 2%. 

Does anyone here use Pinnacle or Timberwolf Organics?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I use Pinnacle all the time, especially with puppies. The chicken/oats is very fibery.  My adult dogs did well on the Turkey and Salmon grain free varieties as well. I feed grains, I rotate around once they are adults. 

I used to looooove Timberwolf. There was a small cult on the board - this was probably 6 or more years ago. Then they changed stuff, charged more, weren't clear about things and we all got upset. Cult disbanded. I am not sure what their current status is.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I used to looooove Timberwolf. There was a small cult on the board - this was probably 6 or more years ago. Then they changed stuff, charged more, weren't clear about things and we all got upset. Cult disbanded. I am not sure what their current status is.


I still get mad when I think about that :rofl: Loved that food!!

I'm feeding Kaos the adult California Natural Chicken and Rice when she got soft stools on the Nature's Logic I feed Dante. 
She's doing very well on it , though one of these days I'll try her on the NL again because it would be so nice to feed both dogs the same food!!!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I appreciate hearing everything that everyone's feeding, but the calcium levels in the adult foods are over 2% in most of these. As Rocket is only turning 9 months, does this mean everyone feeds higher calcium anyway?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I raise puppies mostly on raw, so I never worried about calcium. Bones do have a lot of calcium but I notice that the excess simply comes out in the stool--the stools on a raw diet turn chalky white after a day or two, so maybe they just excrete what they don't need?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Pinnacle Chicken and Oats is Pinnacle® - Chicken & Oatmeal Recipe Premium Dry Dog Food here. There is also a nice spreadsheet that Jasmine's dad started - I believe in the puppy food section. There is also a sticky there about feeding puppies. 

I just read - oh wow, am concerned that this dog has had a URI for that long. X-rays should have been done sooner - if he has pneumonia, severe exercise restrictions, etc, need to happen, and he may need a culture done to see what abx will work. Unless it's something else that he's only coughing at night? 

Real salmon or dog food salmon? Salmon Poisoning Disease


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I have the spreadsheet open as we speak, LOL!

He doesn't eat real salmon (well I sometimes make some treats with the Kirkland canned wild salmon), I just remember someone saying something about it in some thread here. 

He has been to the vet once a week at least the last 6 weeks. The thing is, for all intents and purposes he acts just fine. No temp---although he had one for ONE day and we started him on the antibiotics the next day and one day after that, back to normal---, nothing sounds off in his lungs, they can't even get him to "cough" if they press on his throat. It's just when he's laying down at night. We've been over and over it. The vet doesn't think it's heartworm, because of his age and the fact that mosquito season was over before he really even got started and again, they don't see much here of that. But we might do the blood test anyway in the next couple of weeks if it doesn't clear up. 

He bounces around here and is DYING to go do stuff. I've been restricting his exercise now for 3 weeks at least. He has only been on two SLOW walks totaling less than a mile. He is really needing a good hike, but I'm not letting him go on one until this is resolved. The most he has done is walk around the back yard. My pillows are bearing the brunt of this. He doesn't chew them, but he grabs them and mouths them, carries them around, to let me know he is tired of laying around.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That is weird. It's almost like people who have sleep apnea or something. Though I know with my lungs, if I am having trouble, when I am up and moving, okay, laying down, things start to pool and I start hacking. So maybe not so weird! 
Pneumonia Management 

It can also be roundworm.  I am not sure if roundworm is one that is difficult to find in the stool or not. 

Dog Coughs at Night - VetInfo


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Thanks for the info. We've had at least 4 stool samples checked, and done rounds of Robitussin and Torbutrol. Didn't seem to help. 

Frankly, we've cancelled our spring break plans because we've spent all our funds on him and the cat (broken foot). So we're going to finish the antibiotics (2 more days) and see what happens.


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## damaya (Feb 1, 2011)

Freestep said:


> as long as the ingredient list and analysis is appropriate.


Somebody post a little bit more on this. What constitutes appropriate?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

"Appropriate" means good for the particular dog in question, whether it is a puppy, adult, older dog, taking into account body condition, the amount of exercise he's getting, any allergies/sensitivities, etc. So different foods will be needed for different life stages and different conditions. 

But generally, the first ingredient on the label should be some kind of meat. Preferably, two out of the first three ingredients should be some kind of meat. Protein levels and fat levels should be appropriate (protein anywhere from 21 to 35% and fat anywhere from 10-25% depending on the dog's specific needs). If the dog has allergies to wheat or corn, you want to find a food that doesn't have that. Etc.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Needing a different kibble for different life stages is a matter of opinion.

Puppy food, large breed food, lite/weight management food, senior food are generally NOT necessary for the average healthy dog.

They are perfectly capable of eating the same kibble from weaning until death with no averse effects.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> Honestly... use what works! You don't have to buy the most expensive food, just try out something that looks good to you, and see how they do on it. My dogs mainly eat Kirkland (Nature's Domain) kibble, which is quite inexpensive, but they do very well on it. Don't be afraid to use "cheaper" food, as long as the ingredient list and analysis is appropriate.


This is my opinion too. If someone has an issue w/you feeding Kirkland, don't listen to them. Not everyone can afford the most expensive foods on the market, and when you look at the ingredient lists of the pricey ones compared to Kirkland or Diamond Naturals, often they are quite comparable plus you're saving $20 + per bag.

We feed, and also recommend Kirkland Signature to our adopters. Nature's Domain for adult allergic dogs and their regular chicken/rice for non-allergic dogs. 
We also tell them to not buy anything with wheat, corn, soy, or by-products (rules out ALL Science diets and Purinas and Ol' Roys and Kibbles n Bits) and once you've done that you'll have a decent food in front of you.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Something to keep in mind though is not only price, but how much you will need to feed.

I'll use Natures Domain since it was mentioned.

It only has 336 calories a cup, which is fairly low. So while you may save money on a per bag basis, over time, you may not be saving money. Or you could be spending MORE since you may be feeding more than you would have to feed with a bit higher priced, higher CALORIE kibble.

Say with a higher priced, higher calorie kibble, you only need 1 bag a month, but with the lowet priced one, you are having to feed more and have to buy 2 bags to get thru the month. Which is REALLY "cheaper" to feed??

This isn't a bash on that kibble at all. And it may be more important to save money on a per bag basis. (which I totally get!!) That on a "over time" basis. 

Also folks need to pay attention to the weight of the bag. All "large bags" are NOT created equal!!!!

Some are 40+ lbs, some are 25lbs and others usually somewhere inbetween.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BlackGSD said:


> Say with a higher priced, higher calorie kibble, you only need 1 bag a month, but with the lowet priced one, you are having to feed more and have to buy 2 bags to get thru the month. Which is REALLY "cheaper" to feed??


That's a good point. You have to crunch some numbers to find out how much kibble REALLY costs. Nature's Domain at 336 calories a cup vs. say, Diamond Extreme Athlete (Protein: 32% Fat: 25% Calories: 470 kcal/cup). I get Extreme Athelete at TSC at a good price (can't remember the exact amount) but you get a lot of bang for the buck. It isn't a grain-free food, but I only have to feed 2 cups of this vs. 3 cups of Nature's Domain. I haven't actually crunched the numbers because I'm lazy.


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## Rainer (Feb 15, 2012)

I've been feeding my puppy (16 weeks) Fromm Four Star Grain Free Surf & Turf / Beef Frittata Veg. I originally switched him from Cannidae ALS (itch) to the Bef Frittata Veg formula which he loved but then decided to try the Acana Pacifica. Turns out that was too rich for him/too much protein for his tummy = pudding poo, even with pumpkin added in. Thankfully, I was able to return it and got the Surf & Turf formula. His poop immediately became more solid and he's not having the tummy problems anymore. Both formulas are very low in calcium (1.0% and 1.2% respectively) and phosphorus (0.9% and 1.0%). Best of all is he loves it and his coat looks wonderful


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## damaya (Feb 1, 2011)

Very helpful. Thanks.
Next question. At what point (age) did/do you go from puppy food to dog food.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I used to buy large breed dog food. But I noticed that large breed dog food _usually _has less calories per cup. So if you feed large breed food, they suggest 3-4 cups for a dog 50 - 75 pounds, and 4-4 3/4 for a dog 75 - 100 pounds at 327kcal/cup. So figure 4 cups for a 75 pound dog. 

For the regular kibble, it is 351kcal/cup, and they suggest the following feeding:
2 3/4 - 3 1/3 cups for a 60-80 pound dog. 

Both cost 29.99 for 35 pounds. I guess my girls are pigs because most of them eat 3.5 cups per day, and some eat 4. None of them weigh 80. 

And you really cannot just go by how many cups you feed, because a denser kibble will need less cups as you have a higher calorie content, and so fewer cups are needed, but the bag will contain fewer cups. So look at the over all calorie content of the bag. 

I am doing 4Health because that is what I have open, but regular is 3755kcal/kg / 2.2 pounds/kg (I think) =1706.8 kcal/pound * 35 pounds = 59,738.6 kcal/bag 
/ 351 kcal/cup = about 170.2 cups in a bag 
/ 34 cups/day = 5.00 days to go through a bag (at my house) give or take. 

The large breed would be 3499 kcal / kg / 2.2 pounds/kg = 1590kcal/pound
* 35 pounds = 55,665.9 kcal/bag
/ 327 kcal/cup = about 170.2 cups in a bag 

Which is about the same. 

However, the dogs will need to actually eat more of the kibble to maintain their weight as per the bag, by almost 1 cup per dog or 10 cups per day. ick. 

Which means, my lot would finish a bag in, 3.86 days. 

That may not seem like a lot, but going through ten bags in 38 days as opposed to 50 days, that is almost two weeks worth of dog food in two months. 

I guess they figure if you own a big dog, then you can afford to pay more for dog food. The dog needs so many calories. You get more calories with the regular dog food. Back in the beginning, there was no adjustments for large breed, small breed, old dogs, fat dogs, high energy dogs. You just fed them more or less dependent on their energy levels. 

I usually give them a couple of raw meat meals a week. 

I guess you cannot get this stuff, but the dogs all of them love it. Cujo, my parents dog is pretty picky, and my dad has remarked about a dozen times how he seems to like it. My crew, if they were ever rescued people would think they must have been starved to death because they go nutso like they haven't eaten in three weeks and food is gone in a matter of seconds. Of course I have that multiple dog thing going where even if they are separated, they believe someone else will get it if they do not scarf it up.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

The gal at the pet food store said the reason the LB puppy food had less calories was to encourage slower growth. Made sense the way she explained it. Although you could just feed less. Anyhow, I guess I'll just have to get a few samples to see if first he likes the taste, then try some out. I can always go back to Orijen.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

damaya said:


> Very helpful. Thanks.
> Next question. At what point (age) did/do you go from puppy food to dog food.


Just after I get them. If they are eating puppy food at the breeders, I get a small bag of whatever they have been eating. If they are eating well after I bring them home at 8 weeks, I start the switch away from puppy food by 9 weeks of age.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

RocketDog said:


> The gal at the pet food store said the reason the LB puppy food had less calories was to encourage slower growth. Made sense the way she explained it. Although you could just feed less. Anyhow, I guess I'll just have to get a few samples to see if first he likes the taste, then try some out. I can always go back to Orijen.


To me, less calories doesn't make sense.

Say the pup needs x number of calories to maintain condition.

The LBP food has 100 less calories per cup than similar non LBP kibble. Which means that you will have to feed MORE of the LBP kibble to maintain condition than you have to feed of the other kibble.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RocketDog said:


> The gal at the pet food store said the reason the LB puppy food had less calories was to encourage slower growth. Made sense the way she explained it. Although you could just feed less. Anyhow, I guess I'll just have to get a few samples to see if first he likes the taste, then try some out. I can always go back to Orijen.


But my figures are for dog food, not puppy food. 

I think that back when I was a child, they came out with Cycle dog food. Cycle 1 for puppies, Cycle 2 for adults, Cycle 3 for overweight dogs, and Cycle 4 for seniors. And since then people have been paying more money to differentiate foods to their specific dog's specific needs. A few years ago, I think Canidae was the one that started the ALL LIFE STAGES. So we come full-cycle. But people are not happy if you do not have a large breed food, and a puppy food, and a large breed lamb and rice puppy food for sensitive digestive tracts, and skin problems. How about a German Shepherd Dog food for 6-15 months?

It is all marketing, or mostly marketing. 

I think back in the day, they took adult food and adjusted the numbers and put more calcium in some of the food and called it puppy food. Then they found out that dogs prone to joint problems should not have all that calcium so they adjusted the numbers again, added some glucosamine and chondroitin to the original recipe and called it large breed puppy. So if you feed your pup adult dog food your are ok. If you feed your pup puppy food you are ok (if the pup is not a large breed). But if you want to feed your puppy puppy food, then use a large-breed puppy, and it makes you feel better. 

I talked to my vet about the puppy growing too fast on puppy food. He said puppies are going to grow as fast as they are going to grow, you need to keep up with the nutrition for their growth. Not sure if I got that right though. So, I figure if you are feeding grocery store garbage, then you might want to ensure that you are doing a large breed puppy type food. Because they pump so much molasses in the food because dogs will eat, eat, eat the sweet stuff. So maybe you want to go with a lower cal. (I know you are feeding top quality food.) 

More food = more poop. I guess I do not buy it that there is that much of a difference if you are using quality dog food, unless there is some sort of statement that tells you that it is not appropriate for dogs under 12 months. 

So I feed adult food to puppies, and do not bother with large breed food. I do not understand why a food that is sufficient for a 50 pound setter is not sufficient for a 67 pound GSD. But a food that is sufficient for a 67 pound GSD is sufficient for a 220 pound Mastiff.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I don't really know, unless you look at feeding say, 4 cups a day for an active 5 month old pup. Maybe getting MORE calories would increase growth too fast, instead of LESS keeping it more even. Make sense? :crazy:

It did the day she explained it, LOL


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Also, I've always been of the mind that dog food in general is all marketing. Both my parents and their parents (etc) never ever fed dog food. They fed table scraps and bones from the butcher. You always knew who was "poor" and never had enough left over to feed a dog, my mom said (she also said they were poor but good friends with the butcher, wink) The beginning dog kibbles were nothing but crap in my opinion--just someone's brilliant idea one day to get rid of all the left over grain. 

It's come a long way, but I do take much with a grain of salt. This is why it's so confusing!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Here is a direct copy and paste from Innova's website regarding their LB puppy food:

"_*Innova Large Breed Puppy Food* contains 6% fewer calories than regular Innova Puppy Food and includes balanced levels of calcium and phosphorus. Innova Large Breed Puppy Food also has less protein and is balanced with the appropriate mineral content for optimal skeletal development. Innova Large Breed Puppy Food also contains a bit more fiber than regular Innova Puppy food to prevent overfeeding. Innova Large Breed Puppy Food provides complete and balanced nutrition."

_To me, 6% is not much.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If it is between large breed puppy and regular puppy, get the large breed puppy. 

I skip the whole large breed and the puppy, and get regular adult dog food.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I agree with the marketing Selzer was talking about.

It's a wonder any of us managed to keep or dogs alive in years past.

They all ate the same thing wether they were a 200lb senior mastiff or a Chihuahua puppy. And no one thought that was "wrong".

Personally I've fed GSD and other similar sized puppies, adults and seniors the exact same adult kibble. I've NEVER had any issues from doing so.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Well, personally I could give a rat's a$$ about whether it's a "puppy" food, but the calcium levels in many adult foods are too high, from what the general agreement seems to be. I mean, I see back and forth in this very thread about that, but to me it seems safest to wait a bit to raise those.


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## rustilldown (Mar 9, 2011)

I didn't read this whole thread, so sorry for any overlap. I went through what you are now a few months ago. Wanted high protein, low calcium.

After probably 10+ hours of research I went with Earthborn Holistic. I also almost went with Fromm but liked Earthborn better. I had Emma on Kirkland prior to the change. 

I made the change at about 13 months. We are almost through our first bag and I just ordered two more. She is awesome on it. Never knew poo could be so hard! Haha

Highly recommend Earthborn Holistic! I order from doggiefood.com


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

There are several good "adult" kibbles that don't have thru the roof calcium levels. 

BUT, most are grain kibbles, OR they are grain free, BUT have more potato, peas, ect... than they do actual meat.

For instance personally it wouldn't bother me to feed a puppy of mine Innova adult. (Either the regular or the red meat.)


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, Innova's high on my short list.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Also if you look at Wellness, the adult has LESS calcium than the LBP. It also has less protien though.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just a PS. I would not recommend Nature's Domain for a growing puppy and have recommended against it. For an average adult dog that's not doing a lot of exercising, I would recommend it.


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