# Need advice on serious dog/person aggression with 21 month old male.



## Mog (Aug 10, 2012)

Hi all,

I have a problem with Maximus that I need some assistance with. I know there are a lot of posts about dog aggression, but each situation is different and I wanted to post our situation and try and get some advice based off of what we are dealing with. 

First off, I want to say that Maximus is great all around dog; he's great with me, my daughter, the house, etc, except of course for his dog/person aggression which I'm hoping to curb. 

Side note, he has little to no food drive whatsoever. He's very mouthy and not much of a lap dog 

Going back, 2 weeks after we had taken Maximus home at 12 weeks of age, I was walking him on lead when a neighbors dog who supposedly had an electronic fence ran up from behind a bush, out onto the sidewalk and attacked Maximus. I'm not sure if this ties into the problem, but wanted to mention it. He wasn't seriously hurt, but the dog (Sharpei?) did pick him up in his mouth and shook him.

I went through all the socialization I could with Max. Did day work, night work, public locations, parks, sounds, playing with the neighbors dogs, etc... and Max did really well, but at about a year of age he started becoming dog aggressive. If we were walking on lead or if he was off leash in the back yard and someone would walk by the back yard on the sidewalk with their dog, he would become aggressive; hackels up, barking, lunging, the works. Wanting to nip it in the bud, I signed up for E-collar training. It worked initially, but now the E-collar can't break his concentration. He's bigger and stronger now and a handful to manage on walks. I stand at 6'2, 230lbs. I'm in good shape and it takes a lot to hold him back. 

For the past 2 months, he was getting better and better with people. Typically, I walk onto the grass, have him sit and he would sit while the person passes. But this past week, he's back to being aggressive again towards people without dogs. 

A lot of reading I've done said it's fear aggression... but I don't feel that's correct. Max stays in the kitchen while I'm at work and I have a monitor so I can see him whenever I want. He'll go ballistic if a squirrel or feral cat is in the back yard, which I can see being prey drive. Same though if a person with a dog goes by. When we are on a walk, like this morning, if he even sees another dog, he'll start pulling, hackles go up a bit and the dog can literally be a quarter of a mile away. Don't see that being fight or flight situation. 

I was hoping by working with him and him aging and maturing, he would calm down a little, but he hasn't. The E-collar works fine when there are no other dogs in the area. Lately though, he seems to turn into Cujo when there is another dog, regardless of the size. 

I'd like to do whatever I can to help control this aggression, but not sure what to do next... I don't want to use a prong collar as I feel he wouldn't notice it until he calmed down and would really hurt himself in his state. 

I don't think he would bite a person, but there are little children in the area and I'm fearful one may run up to pet him and ... so my first questions is about a muzzle. Should I use one for the time being? If so, any recommendations for a good one? Or should I avoid them and turn around when kids/people are seen? 

Next question, since the E-collar doesn't seem to be effective anymore, what's my next step in either trying to control his aggression or if possible, stop it. 

I'm sure there's more I left out, but this post is long enough all ready  I'll answer any specific questions that I forgot to. 

Thanks in advance for your help, you guys have always been the best resource.

Mog


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Please talk to your breeder. This is the 2nd dog you've had serious aggression issues with. Where did this one come from?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...hould-i-bring-pup-back-breeder-long-post.html

You needed behavior modification instead of just correcting him with an e-collar.


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## Mog (Aug 10, 2012)

Thanks for the helpful advice...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Were both of these puppies from the same breeder?

Do they have some of the same dogs behind them? 

Have you worked with a trainer, how often?

Have you discussed the current behavior with your trainer? 

Have you discussed the current behavior with your breeder?

What is your daily schedule like with respect to your dog -- what training, exercise, play, sleeping arrangement, freedom?


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

I would say a definite yes to the muzzle. If he is acting out like this it is a matter of time. Both of mine are accustomed to a basket muzzle, it doesn't bother them breathing. And of course, you need a trainer to help you with this, but run out and pick up a muzzle before you walk him again.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Just curious if your dog is purebred. It looks like it might be a GSD / Mal cross.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Hi there! I'm not qualified to give you advice, but if it were my dog, I think that I'd use a muzzle out in public just for peace of mind. I'd also look for a qualified trainer. Are there any IPO/schutzhund clubs in your area? My first GSD was somewhat dog aggressive. We hired a local trainer who worked with protection dogs, and it was very helpful.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Mog said:


> Hi all,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The actions you describe actually does describe fear aggression. What you or I see as a fight or flight issue can be perceived as something totally different by the dog. I can't comment on an ecollar for this as I never used it with Woolf. After getting a solid foundation in obedience, a prong collar was successfully introduced. 

You haven't said what kind of training has been done so far, so.. first step is locating an experienced trainer or behaviorist (tough to find). Many things can be helped online but the details with a FA dog makes it important to get that experienced set of eyes on him. While locating a trainer, order a basket muzzle  maybe a size 7. Avoid the nylon grooming muzzles, you want your dog to be able to pant and drink water.

For the kids in your neighborhood, be prepared to ask(tell) them to give you space. Even with a muzzle, your dog can do damage.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Ya know... you got to find a good trainer that knows the protection breeds and work with them. What you describe is significant and escalating and he is at the age where you better get this under control. The internet will be a bunch of piecemeal suggestions. Take a breath, find the good trainer and invest. And then invest some more.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have some fear reactivity in my puppy, which I introduced because I made a few mistakes when he was young. I immediately went to a behaviorist, paid the money and got both an evaluation and training. He is now showing very little reactivity. I don't care how tall you are, you have to know what signals you are giving the dog that he feels he needs to go into attack mode. 

I would do a few things right away. Get a good private behavior specialist in fear based aggression. Have the person observe in your own home and show you what to change. It is your behavior that is allowing it, not the dog. Do not leave him in a situation where he can see dogs or animals from a window. The frustration builds and he is obviously not handling it well, so he goes into attack mode. Don't walk him in places where he will see just one or two dogs or people and react. Train him in an open area away from your home with escape routes and a lot of distractions. Stop him before he reacts. He needs to know that if he doesn't react, you will remove the threat. A muzzle will keep him from biting but dogs can lunge, jump and even knock a muzzle off. You want to keep him below the threshold, not react after.

But please, get a good specialist to work with you. It's is worth the money. If you can't do this, rehome him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Mog said:


> Thanks for the helpful advice...


I'm sorry you are upset. However, where you got this puppy is valid. Is it from the same breeder? Did you talk to your breeder?

You used an e-collar for aggression. The manufacturers have a warning included with e-collars and using for aggression for a reason.

Now you have a potentially dangerous dog by your own description "serious dog/person aggression" and "I stand at 6'2, 230lbs. I'm in good shape and it takes a lot to hold him back.". So, IMO, ethically you need to find a good trainer that works with behavior modification to help you work thru this before someone gets hurt.

Find an IPO club and see who they recommend.

AND!! Talk to your breeder!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You said you signed up for e collar training, does that mean you worked on that with a trainer?

The way you describe using an e collar is worrisome to me...the dog is no longer responding to it...so, does that mean full blast on whatever collar you are using gets no reaponse? (I am not suggesting you try that if that's not what you meant!!!)

Or your dog is in such an aroused state that he is no longer responding to whatever "working level" used to work, and you stated that thr e collar is not working to stop the aggression anymore, so you were using an e collar to attempt to correct dog aggression?

Please correct me if I am wrong about any of that. Bottom line: it is possible to increase a dog's arousal level w/ e collar....by association I believe, could attempt to explain in kore detail if you are interested.

It is definitely possible to teach a negative association if you stimmed him while he was focused on another dog which could definitely make dog aggression worse (people, same)

It is possible this was a minor problem made worse by e collar. Maybe not. What collar do you use, what was the methodology? Escape training or correction for disobedience or...?

#1 is not to take him into a situation where he is going to be so out of control that he would hurt himself on a prong collar for instance. That's way over threshold. If he is hot over a dog at a quarter mile away maybe you need to be doing 3/4 and rewarding for eye contact with you....to start.

But I do agree with everyone else thst this requires one on one help from a professional just vet your professional carefully


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Yes, find a good trainer. Screen them very carefully, ask for references and check them! 

Fear aggression is an overused term and isn't real helpful. It's impossible to say if he is fearful without seeing him in action, but I'd say from your description he is reactive, and possibly more than anything wants that dog to go away. Not possible to diagnose on line though. 

This needs to be dealt with from someone who can see and work the dog. E-collar used wrong could make it all way worse. 

Be very careful fooling around with an e-collar if the dog is close to a kid, dog, etc. Could turn a bark into a bite. Not something to experiment with.


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