# GSD Non-Standard Colors/Markings?



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

Okay so I'm new to GSDs and I've never actually had any pure breds....just mixes through the years, but I'm going to a Police Academy and I'm looking at getting a couple of dogs to use in my job from a breeder who's been at it for more than 30 years and has produced numerous top police dogs, a Secret Service dog for a VPs detail, 9-11 search and rescue heroes, movie and sitcom stars, and just good wokers and pets. These dogs are two brothers. One is Panda and the other is Liver. I like the unique and these boys qualify.

My question is, why the big color controversy? Is there a logical reason other than it's not to breed standard? I'm not making light of Breed Standards, but I'd really like to know if there's anything else? Are there dilute/Panda lines out there that don't have health problems that seem to be associated with the dilute and spotted GSDs?

It seems to me that there aren't any breeds out there where the only difference between that breed and another is it's color. There's so much more to the breeds than that. Conformation, personality, ability, trianability, etc seem like they should be much more important. Why make a fuss over colors that are naturally occuring in a breed because a breed association decided that the breed should be a certian color(s)? Especially in a breed where the founder is reported as saying "No good dog is a bad color"?

I'm looking for some good opinions that are reasonable and from those who don't have anything to gain either way (which seems to be difficult to obtain). Whatever dogs I get, I'd like to breed if they turn out to be exceptional at their jobs, but I want dogs that are going to last me a very long time and will be healthy and happy and will be good breeding prospects in the long run if they prove to be exceptional at their job. If anyone can help, I'd be very greatful.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

unlike in other breeds, I've not heard of colors in GSDs being a link to health problems. I dont generally pay much attention in the way of colors according to breed standard so i'm really not much help. Research the Panda Shepherd. Its a GSD with just unique coloring. It was found in one litter and the gene has only been linked to that particular lineage. Other people will be able to better explain that whole mess with breed standards and such. I dont plan on showing my dogs so coloring standard coloring doesnt mean much to me. I have a black male, a classic black and tan female, and two sables. I'd love to have a blue shepherd and a panda shepherd and i know there are people on here who would probably love to ring my neck for admitting such things. I'm not knocking liver colored shepherds but brown or chocolate is just not a color i'm interested in or like.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

GSDLover84 said:


> .....My question is, why the big color controversy?


 
There is no color controversy.

There is controversy over working and non-working GSDs. When the breed was founded by M. Stephanitz, it was established as a working dog with a breed worthiness test called Schutzhund...Herding, the original test, was/is still employed to determine breed worthiness.

Some breeders have moved away from the breed test, and therein lies the controversy. Not all lines of GSD are of acceptable temperament to perform law enforcement work. Some lines, like West German Show Lines, are typically, but not always, Red & Black, so superficially, color can be confused as the issue.


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

KZoppa: Thanks and I like the Blues too, but alas there don't seem to be any breeders anywhere near me working on them. I live in Texas and I'd pretty much drive anywhere in the South or as far as Colorado to find good ones, but the nearest seems to be the extreme NW corner of Kansas. As in, in the mountians. lol They are stunning dogs though.

W. Oliver: Really? Maybe these people I hear talking about how horrible it is to breed the more unusual colors/markings aren't the truly serious GSD folks because what I've read was pretty specific to the Diltues and Pandas and had nothing to do with anything important...at least anything I feel is truly important. I've seen some forums recently where people were bashing the concept. Even to the point of saying they HAD to be mixed breeds and the people breeding them were just trying to make money. Because, Heaven forbid someone just breed dogs they like because they like them. In the majority of breeds, Liver and Blue happen, correct? In Poodles, Blue is standardized (totally unfair) and is called "Silver". In Australian Shepherds, Liver is called "Red", as in Red Tri or Red Merle. The Standardized Wiemaraner color is Blue. Etc. It's all presumably the same two genes from breed to breed.

It's very nice to know that people really do see what's important. Conformation, personality, and ability are obviously the primary objective. Good stuff. Thanks.

I would like to know if there's any truth to this talk of health issues linked to the Dilutes? Or if there's certian lines that carry the problems? If so, anyone know which lines so I can avoid them like the plague?


----------



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

The issue with the "unique" colors and patterns is not with the dogs themselves, but with the breeders that breed specifically for those traits. 

You can have a very healthy German Shepherd that is a Blue, or liver, or panda, but when you consider how small the numbers are of them there, when a breeder limits him/herself to breeding only livers or only blues, then you stop focusing on the things that are important. 

You want a breeder that focuses on a healthy robust, and well balanced dog. If one of the breeders that I respect ended up having a puppy that was a liver or blue, or shiloh (however rare that would be) I would take it in a heart beat....no more or less than any other healthy pup that have.

When you start focusing on color alone, you start having breeders that will breed 2 dogs together, not because they are great examples of the breed, or they have iron clad temperaments and great working drive. They haven't proven themselves breedworthy....they just happen to be 2 good looking blue german shepherds...


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

W. Oliver: Oh oh oh...I'm sorry, but I gotta pick your brain since it seems so full and stuff.  Whaddaya mean about the not good law enforcement type stuff? Are there any particular lines you'd recommend? Or any "type" you'd find better than another? I'm thinking calm, but ready to work whenever if such an animal really exists. I figure you don't want a police dog to try to eat everyone or to be nearly jumping out of his skin 24-7, but you'd want him alert and ready for to work whenever duty calls. Are there any particular lines better for such a thing than others? Or combinations of lines? I know it's also about training, but genetics play a big part, too. Nature vs Nurture bit and all. 

Or if there's certian lines that carry the problems? For that matter...are there any lines of any kind that should be avoided?

I guess I don't just need law enforcement type dogs. I have a kid, other pets, livestock, and a daily life, too. I need dogs that will also be great pets when they're home and work hard when they're at work. Advice, please! I'm a virtual sponge.


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

GSDSunshine said:


> The issue with the "unique" colors and patterns is not with the dogs themselves, but with the breeders that breed specifically for those traits.
> 
> You can have a very healthy German Shepherd that is a Blue, or liver, or panda, but when you consider how small the numbers are of them there, when a breeder limits him/herself to breeding only livers or only blues, then you stop focusing on the things that are important.
> 
> ...


Yep, yep, yep. Gotcha. So some folks just aren't focusing on the important stuff and that's what worries other folks. Makes sense. I want the whole package. Like I said...I've always been drawn to marked and dilute-colored animals and if I could get that in a GSD I'd be over the moon, but I'd rather have a dependable partner than a less common color. I want both. I'm just not totally sure how to go about it and I wasn't sure if there was any merit to the talk of health issues associated with it. Don't want my dog itching and scratching from yucky skin stuff rather than biting the bad guy trying to take my head off. lol


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Before you get any puppy/dog that you want to use for your job and in your department, I'd make sure I was working WITH my department. Their goals and expectations as well as experience with dogs. Their policy on getting dogs.

I had a friend who got a GSD puppy when he entered his police department also with the intent to have it be used as part of his job. Only to find out they only let officers have dogs that had been in the job for at least 5 years as an incentive and seniority thing. Their K-9 Officers got more pay!

Many agencies also only purchase and use partially trained dogs at specific places, then send their new K-9 Officer to that location to finalize the training. 

So hate to see you get a dog specifically for K-9 and find out it won't work out. I know most LE Agencies in PA use dogs from working line breeders, Czech, West/East German lines so you'd NEVER see a liver or Panda coming from those lines. (well maybe a liver, but not a Panda). 

Panda's are a 'new' breed with the breeder who first got them really working on keeping the color and using them as show NOT working lines. Phenom Shepherds - Home Chances of them having a suitable temperment for police work wouldn't be high cause that's not the breeders goal.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

GSDLover84 said:


> Whaddaya mean about the not good law enforcement type stuff?


What I mean is that GSDs in law enforcement are typically from working lines.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

GSDLover84 , you want a 'rare' color in working lines, then look at the blacks! They aren't really 'rare' but no one ever sees them unless they are familiar with working lines.

BEAUTIFUL dogs but not the color people are used to. Here's one of my favorites...


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

That is a nice dog, I agree.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well how about sable as a "rare" colour, LOL? Never ever saw one until a few years ago, and it was so "different" that I did not even recognize the dog to be a German Shepherd.

The big plus here, is that sable is easily found in working lines, and you get one from a great breeder like I did, and you have a dog that runs faster and bites harder than any police dog our dog trainer has ever worked with, and sleeps on the bed with me at night, with the cats curled up to him. 

If you want a dog that does it all, then look at the breeder and what they produce, not at the colour of the dog.

edited to add: Very nice black bitch, I agree also!!! known to produce dogs that can impress world-lever Schutzhund competitors and police dog trainers and sleep on the bed at home with the cats curled up to him.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That black beauty is my pups Momma :wub:
Thanks for posting her gorgeousness, MRL!!


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

Okay so you want working lines for sure. That's what the instructors have been hinting at so it's nice to have it reinforced. I was a tad concerned about the pet part. I like that there are working lines that can bust their tails all day and curl up with the cats at night. That's the perfect dog for my family.

The department is actually pretty easy going about all of it and it's been discussed at length. Training would take time and the more the merrier in their minds although they didn't actually give a time limit on getting that far other than I'd have to get past my rookie year for sure, but I can't see it taking less than that with the smartest of dogs. I could be wrong though. The breeder I'm in contact with is well-known and her dogs have gone on to work with Dallas PD (on a more local-ish note). It will still have to be at their approval once training in complete, but they don't have a problem with my selecting my own dogs as long as they meet the requirements at that time. Either way...it wouldn't break my heart to have a few dogs and I wouldn't discard them if I couldn't use them for it. They'd just have to be found another fun job...something like running the neighboring ranch's cattle off our property every day. It's just me, my kiddo, and the animals so we have lots of time for extra fun stuff. I've considered agility and such for the dogs who aren't being used. My GSD mix girls wouldn't much care for it (they're a bit lazy), but I bet the GSDs would be.

Okay so the Pandas were origionally bred for show so that's probably not a terriffic choice. Got it. See this is why I wanted to ask people who weren't directly involved. I like the guys at the academy and in my sponsoring department, but I can't say they aren't at least partially bias to what they're familiar with. I wanted opinions from people who'd had experience with other animals. I have every intention of speaking with some police dog trainers, but I've yet to find any in my immediate area so...

I've seen the Black GSDs and they're stunning. Very sharp and lovely. It's a color I'm also drawn to. Had a SWAT guy waaaaay back in grade school bring in his two best drug dogs. One was a Belguim Shepherd and the other a Black GSD. That's the first time I'd ever seen one. They really are beautiful. The breeder didn't mention having any at the moment though. I think the majority of hers are BLK/TAN and White. I'm not totally sure where the Liver and Panda boys popped up. Haven't quite gotten that far. I don't want to fall in love with them until I'm more sure of whether they're really good prospects or not.

Sables are beautiful too. I was in a shelter recently and they had a Cream Sable Long Coat girl with a full mask in there. She was stunning. Very young. What a wonderful, sweet, patient girl she was. I was so relieved when a family came in to pick her up while I was there. I'd have had to take her home even if it was just to place her in another home.

Thank you for the info and feel free to add more whenever. As you can see, I need all the help I can get.


----------



## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

GSDLover84 said:


> The breeder I'm in contact with is well-known and her dogs have gone on to work with Dallas PD (on a more local-ish note).
> 
> ......and the other a Black GSD. That's the first time I'd ever seen one. They really are beautiful. The breeder didn't mention having any at the moment though. I think the majority of hers are BLK/TAN and White. I'm not totally sure where the Liver and Panda boys popped up. Haven't quite gotten that far. I don't want to fall in love with them until I'm more sure of whether they're really good prospects or not.


I would like to help you by saying....take your time, and please don't rush to buying a GSD. Allow yourself to focus on getting on the force, and knocking-out that rookie year.

While you're doing that, stay connected to this forum and any other reading materials you can get your hands on...study the GSD. Look for Schutzhund clubs in your area, and start hanging out with them. Give yourself some time to learn about GSDs before you buy a dog.

First and foremost, if you want a working dog, you're not shopping color. This isn't going to the Ford dealership and picking-out the red Mustang. Understand what you'll be asking the dog to due through training, and then examine the type of dogs this breeder you refer to is producing, and then ask yourself if this is the correct temperament to work the streets??


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

okay first i wanna get this out before i forget what i want to say. One of the good things about GSDs from good well bred lines (and in rare cases some who arent well bred who have kid aggressive parents) you can get a dog that is very chill and relaxed but also ready to work when you say "okay! lets work!" Thats one of the best things about the breed in general. Raised properly, socialized properly and trained properly, they are one of the best possible dogs to have around children. My kids climb all OVER my dogs. Zena has been the best, Riley tolerates it because he knows theres no escape so he's to the point now he just snoozes as he becomes a jungle gym, Shelby takes every opportunity she possibly can to give my kids kisses and Shasta being only 4.5 months old is already VERY tolerant and quickly becoming a very well behaved pup. My son was climbing all over her earlier at a friends house and Shasta just laid there with this dopey grin on her face the hole time. Now dont let this fool you. Some dogs simply will not tolerate kids but those are usually the dogs who've not been raised with kids or socialized properly with them. 

Now onto Dilute colors. Liver and Blues arent considered proper coloring by many because they stick so heavily to the breed standard and many people even refuse to believe that in some cases coloring doesnt always equal health issues. An example: Dobermans that come in white or blue tend to have health related issues due to their coloring. These colors in the dobie breed have been linked to cancers and/or increased risk of cancer, epilepsy, and any number of other health problems. I've heard, but dont know how true it is, that white dobermans are more prone to liver and/or kidney failures along with severe heart problems. Now look at the White shepherd. The white color in shepherds hasnt been linked to specific health related issues. Its simply a different color of the breed and is considered to be a recessive trait as is the Panda gene. I dont think i would personally have a white shepherd because i'm not a big fan of white and i tend to have darker interiors on my car and darker furniture. Intelligence and all the positives you're looking for in a dog should never be based upon color. Color should always be the last thing you look at, especially in terms of shepherds. They come in such a wide array you never know exactly what you're going to get. When someone breeds specifically for a color that is considered dilute more than breeding for good qualities and personality traits they'd like in the pups, thats when the real problems start and the pups are at risk for health problems throughout their lives.


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

Absolutely. Beilieve me...I'm the last person you have to worry about making a rash decision. I really hadn't intended to get one tomorrow. I like to research everything thoroughly before I get into it. Usually to the point that I either wait too long or talk myself out of it. lol I so promise I'm not trying to jump the gun as much as it probably sounds like I am. I just get excited over the concept. When it comes to actually committing to something I'm a total weenie and it takes me forever to make a decision. The poor breeder I'm talking to already knows this. These suggested dogs are merely that...a suggestion/option thrown out for the time being in case I'm suddenly in a hurry. lol Not much of a chance of that. Animals are a lifelong committment and I swear I don't take such a thing lightly. I absolutely am going to take my time, study the breed more, ask questions, and find the right dog. I might even wait and let the department choose one for me when the time comes. I'm not sure. That's why I'm here though. To get advice and learn all I can before I make a decision. I've spent my life rescuing animals that people took in not understanding what they're getting into and, while I am and have been numerous times, willing to adjust my lifestyle to the needs of the poor creatures we've taken in, this is an entirely different situation. This time I'll actually get to pick out the dog(s) I want based more on what I need and what they need to do the job I'm asking of them. It's an intriguing and foriegn situation for me and I'm all jumpy and on edge over it. I've literally picked out one dog in my entire life...20 years ago...when I was seven...at a Humane Society. lol The rest, and there's been loads of them, have been picked up off the side of the road, wandered up, dumped off, signed over (I had a small rescue for a while before I decided to go back to school) and just about anything else you can imagine. The idea of being able to actually walk up and say "I want that one" is...oh gosh...it's difficult to explain.

Would a working dog club also qualify? I know of one about an hour from me. That's as close as it gets. The closest Schutzhund (specifically) club is two hours away and in a different state. There are some agility clubs around here that I've worked with in the past (helped out...not actually competed in) and while I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with getting involved in them and I've enjoyed the time I've spent, I'm not sure if it's exactly where I need to be.

All of these questions I'm asking have been asked before by me to other people, but I'm looking for as many perspectives as I can possibly get before any decisions are made. I think I'll know when that perfect dog comes along and when the time is exactly right. I think I'll feel more confident that I'm fully prepared and doing the right thing when it happens. Is that the way it works or is my head way the heck up in the clouds?


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I rescued a solid black very LARGE male shepherd one day (freezing cold and 3 hours of sitting in the snow convincing him he was safe with me but he was 150% terrified of my cat lol). I knew he was a shepherd though i'd never seen a black shepherd, even in pictures. I've always been able to pick out PB GSDs with no trouble. His very terrifying bark was also a clue as to his breed. He was absolutely gorgeous and i would have kept him had i not been able to locate his owner. He's about 8 years old now. 

Shasta's dad was brought over from Europe but his papers were lost as he was bounced around from home to home. her dad is a VERY large red and black male, very masculan head. He was purchased for pet quality by the preacher of the church his current owner attends. When the preacher found out he had cancer, Nubie got rehomed because it was better for him with one of the church attendees. When she realized he was simply too large for her and too young (all that energy was too much) for her to handle, Nubie again got rehomed with his current owner who had the knowledge and time for a young large male GSD. He got out of the kennel while Stanley's female was in heat (they kept them seperated as best they could) and its how Shasta came to be. Accidental litter which i'm thankful for because Shasta is a truly wonderful little pup. Smart as a whip and i finally got my Sable pup. But i went into it knowing I wanted a pet quality GSD and when i got to meet her and realized she was a sable girl with the personality i was looking for, it just sealed the deal further. 

Shasta at 4.5 months









Shelby at 1 year









And Zena, my first sable girl at 6 years old (example of how my dogs are with my kids)


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

KZoppa (and whoever else wants to add info): Thanks (yeesh) for the info about the GSDs with your kids. That's wonderful to hear. I'm sure training has a lot to do with it, but I always worry about how a dog will react to my son. That's one of my BIG questions for this breeder. I tried calling her today as I've thought of more stuff to add to my list of needs, but I didn't catch her in time. I have a busy day and she usually doesn't take calls after 5 pm. There is another breeder who seems to have more show dogs of their own, but most are Schutzhund dogs...not necessarily proven police dogs. Is there really a difference? Would a proven police dog breeder be better? I think my local force would feel better about it, but I'm not sure they'd object to my getting a dog from another breeder. They look to have nice dogs, but I haven't made the 4 hour trek out there just yet. The thing that draws me to them is that they seem to have fewer dogs and maybe give more attention...although the other breeder has a good-sized staff, but I'm not sure that's the same as a family environment. I truly can't say either way...I'm just wondering really. Any thoughts?


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDLover84 said:


> Absolutely. Beilieve me...I'm the last person you have to worry about making a rash decision. I really hadn't intended to get one tomorrow. I like to research everything thoroughly before I get into it. Usually to the point that I either wait too long or talk myself out of it. lol I so promise I'm not trying to jump the gun as much as it probably sounds like I am. I just get excited over the concept. When it comes to actually committing to something I'm a total weenie and it takes me forever to make a decision. The poor breeder I'm talking to already knows this. These suggested dogs are merely that...a suggestion/option thrown out for the time being in case I'm suddenly in a hurry. lol Not much of a chance of that. Animals are a lifelong committment and I swear I don't take such a thing lightly. I absolutely am going to take my time, study the breed more, ask questions, and find the right dog. I might even wait and let the department choose one for me when the time comes. I'm not sure. That's why I'm here though. To get advice and learn all I can before I make a decision. I've spent my life rescuing animals that people took in not understanding what they're getting into and, while I am and have been numerous times, willing to adjust my lifestyle to the needs of the poor creatures we've taken in, this is an entirely different situation. This time I'll actually get to pick out the dog(s) I want based more on what I need and what they need to do the job I'm asking of them. It's an intriguing and foriegn situation for me and I'm all jumpy and on edge over it. I've literally picked out one dog in my entire life...20 years ago...when I was seven...at a Humane Society. lol The rest, and there's been loads of them, have been picked up off the side of the road, wandered up, dumped off, signed over (I had a small rescue for a while before I decided to go back to school) and just about anything else you can imagine. The idea of being able to actually walk up and say "I want that one" is...oh gosh...it's difficult to explain.
> 
> Would a working dog club also qualify? I know of one about an hour from me. That's as close as it gets. The closest Schutzhund (specifically) club is two hours away and in a different state. There are some agility clubs around here that I've worked with in the past (helped out...not actually competed in) and while I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with getting involved in them and I've enjoyed the time I've spent, I'm not sure if it's exactly where I need to be.
> 
> All of these questions I'm asking have been asked before by me to other people, but I'm looking for as many perspectives as I can possibly get before any decisions are made. I think I'll know when that perfect dog comes along and when the time is exactly right. I think I'll feel more confident that I'm fully prepared and doing the right thing when it happens. Is that the way it works or is my head way the heck up in the clouds?


 
it definitely sounds like you have the right idea and how to go about this. Many people leap first and THEN ask questions and end up with a problem dog on their hands because they didnt learn about the breed first (or in the case of mixed breeds, they didnt learn about the known breeds in the dog). I'm constantly learning about GSDs. One of the best things you can do next to researching the breed and getting to know the local dog club things, is talk to current owners, other K9 cops. Meet their dogs, Ask for tips (always taken with a grain of salt!). Ask what they like most about the breed and their dog specifically. I cant help myself. Any time someone else has a shepherd i'm asking questions, asking to meet their dog (s). Hands on is one of the best ways you can learn about the breed, watching videos. Everything you can do. Good luck!


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

Oh my goodness! How pretty are your puppies KZoppa! Lovely babies and what an adorable little one to boot. Looks like she's been there for a while with all her toys around and on your Zena girl.  Pretty family you've got there. Very good demonstration of sweetness. Doesn't get much better than that.

I had a Lab mix that let my son lay on her and sleep on her all of the time. I have some pics of him doing nearly the same thing, but on a rug instead of the couch.  Such sweet moments, right? I rescued her off the side of the road trying to eat newspaper to produce milk for a litter of pups she had hidden nearby...poor girl was completely emaciated and also had horrible hip displaysia and I had a great vet do surgery to get her out of all the pain she was in. After that she was a wonder dog. We lost her a few years ago to a stroke. She was 15 years old at the time. She is sorely missed. I wish I had that pic on a computer. I'll have to look for it tomorrow.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

lol thank you! I have tons of pictures of my kids climbing all over my dogs. Riley is the only one (no pics on the comp right now) who gets this please help me look on his face but he's good. No growling or grumbling when he first learned about kids. He'd never hurt a child,just grumble at them lol. he's a wimp. My girls have always been kid friendly but not exactly thrilled with men though tolerant. Zena has hip displacia as well so she gets a little grouchy in the cold but she'll just get up and walk away when the kids are too much. I cant wait to get her back from my inlaws. She's living with them (probably for the remainder of her life) because the humidity where we're currently stationed is too much for her ears and before we could ever get the ear infections cleared up she'd get sick with other stuff too. Dry climate is better for her but she's an awesome dog. Very large girl about 90 lbs. 










its been 6 months since Zena moved in with my inlaws back in CO and my daughter finally stopped asking when she would be home. But the minute she see's a picture of Zena its game over and the questions come out again.


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

I understand that. My son was too young to remember our Lab mix, but I rescued an Australian Shepherd girl from a local shelter a few years ago and he loved her crazy, jelous butt. She was kind of nutty. Probably why she was there in the first place. I rescued her with every intention of adopting her out and it took me a year to finally admit that she needed to be the only dog in the family. She went to a wonderful couple that own a ranch in Northern Colorado and she's their child and the only dog. She goes everywhere with them and they absolutely adore her. They still send me pics on occasion. She wears a bandana, too. I guess it's better than the riendeer antlers we used to put on our dogs around Christmas. lol She was really sweet and my son loved her and he still asks about her and even cries when I tell him we can't bring her back. Breaks my heart every time, but what can you do? What's best for the animals has to come first. It's always sad though, too. I hope you get to see her plenty. She's obviously a wonderful girl.


----------



## GSDLover84 (Sep 6, 2010)

Good Lord! Can I do a run on or what? I need to go to bed. My eyes are crossing.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

i'll get to see her when we go home for a friends wedding in february. She's my first PB girl. We rescued her as i wanted another dog and our male Riley needed a playmate. He refuses to play with anyone else to this day. Zena was his best pal in the world. She's my perfect example of the breed. loyal and protective and amazingly fabulous with kids. I have a 5 year old brother, a 3 year old brother and my sister will be 2 in january (i'm 23). We were at my parents house one time with the dogs shortly after my daughter was born and my mom was actually afraid of Zena at first (long story short, first day we had her i was at my parents house online and my dad had gotten surgery on his foot and came in on his crutches. Zena freaked went into protection mode and Riley being a follower was barking and growling too) Well after Zena adjusted to everything and knew she was safe, my mom saw the side of her thats just wonderful. My brother Tommy (3 at the time) was hanging on Zena a little too rough and Zena very carefully reached around, took his hand in her mouth and moved it away so he wasnt pulling fur anymore. After that my mom has been sold on the breed (but my dogs in general). And Zena continued to be climbed on and loved on and never anything but perfectly well behaved with kids. We're teaching Shelby not to barrell over the kids but she's only a year old and i'm the only person who's given her a chance. She's doing very well. My dad has always loved GSDs as he had one as a kid but Zena scared the crap out of him that day. Zena has always been more weary of men but never dangerous, just watchful. She's massively attached to my FIL. Hates my BIL which i find hilarious but he's also the type that has no respect for animals, especially dogs. He reaches into cars to pet dogs he doesnt know without owner permission or the owner present.


----------



## GSDGenes (Mar 9, 2006)

FYI, sable (agouti is a much more correct term) is the dominant pattern in the breed. The two tone pattern where the ground color and the black are distinctly separate as in the typical saddle black & tan dogs, is recessive to the sable pattern. The solid black is recessive to both of those.

A sable who carries the gene for the saddle black and tan will often show the saddle pattern so distinctly that it can be difficult to tell an adult saddle marked sable from an adult saddle marked black and tan unless one sees a puppy picture of the dogs in question. As puppies the two patterns are very different, as adults the saddle pattern sable can look like a black and tan. One well known example of such a saddle marked sable was Rin Tin Tin IV, most people don't realize he was a sable.
White is a recessive on a different locus, and acts as if a white sheet is dropped over a GSD of any color/pattern, hiding the dog's color & pattern until that white dog is bred to a colored dog and the color genetics of the white dog are revealed in its colored progeny. White to white can only produce white, but the hidden colors and patterns of these white dogs still pass along just as they do in colored dogs. This is how you can breed a black to a white and get a litter of sables or black and tans.
The Panda gene is DOMINANT, IT WAS A SPONTANEOUS MUTATION. Spontaneous mutations can and do happen every so often in all species. 
The brindle gene in the GSD is a dominant gene of the ground color (the red/tan/cream or silver), modifying the ground color to the typical brindle pattern. Because brindle affects the ground color, the black overlay pattern covers it, thus you can have a sable brindle, or a black and brindle or a solid black whose genetic ground color pattern is modified to brindle. I suspect that the brindle gene is a mutation that occurs regularly in the breed, but it takes a dog getting into the hands of a serious fancier to bring its existence to the attention of enthusiasts.


----------



## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

GSDLover84 said:


> I'm going to a Police Academy and I'm looking at getting a couple of dogs to use in my job from a breeder who's been at it for more than 30 years and has produced numerous top police dogs, a Secret Service dog for a VPs detail, 9-11 search and rescue heroes, movie and sitcom stars, and just good wokers and pets.


Your department is going to allow a rookie with no previous experience in this breed or training to select a dog for training?
That is not meant to be insulting, it is a HUGE task. We are talking about selecting a dog that is going to require a very specific temperament and can be a huge liability to the department. There is quite a bit to selecting and evaulating a dog for this type of training. 

While K9 units vary quite a bit across the board, typically K9 handlers have to put some years on the street as a patrol officer before getting their first dog. 

Also, most departments do not go with puppies, as it is a craps shoot. It can be very hard to determine at a young age which dogs will be suitable for training, even from the best breeders. 





GSDLover84 said:


> Conformation, personality, ability, trianability, etc seem like they should be much more important. Why make a fuss over colors that are naturally occuring in a breed because a breed association decided that the breed should be a certian color(s)? Especially in a breed where the founder is reported as saying "No good dog is a bad color"?


Then why is it so important your dog look unique?
Many people don't make a fuss over a dog that has all of the above and is an off color. 
As GSDSunshine has already pointed out, the issue is with breeding specifically for those traits. 
I find it extremely hard to believe someone consciously breeding to produce a certain coat color is doing so with equal focus on all the others important factors. 




GSDLover84 said:


> I'm thinking calm, but ready to work whenever if such an animal really exists. I figure you don't want a police dog to try to eat everyone or to be nearly jumping out of his skin 24-7, but you'd want him alert and ready for to work whenever duty calls. "?


That is what a sound GSD should be. 



KZoppa said:


> Now onto Dilute colors. Liver and Blues arent considered proper coloring by many because they stick so heavily to the breed standard and many people even refuse to believe that in some cases coloring doesnt always equal health issues.


I would be one of those who stick so heavily to the breed standard, 
I do believe that in the GSD breed, coloring does not always equal health issues.
My take on it is that if we start picking and choosing which parts of the standard are important and which aren't, where do we end up? We already have a huge division in the breed.
That is just my point of view. I am not saying others are wrong. 



GSDLover84 said:


> There is another breeder who seems to have more show dogs of their own, but most are Schutzhund dogs...not necessarily proven police dogs. Is there really a difference? Would a proven police dog breeder be better?...Any thoughts?


There are no standards for Police K9 training. There are many examples of dogs that should not be Police dogs, so simply producing a dog that has made it to be a Police dog is not necessarily an indication of being a good breeder. 
Now, if I was familiar with the department, and their training requirements and results, I would put a little more stock in it. 

Also, Schutzhund titles do not always mean a dog is a good dog either. I don't know that end of it, perhaps those more involved in the field can explain.


----------



## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Interesting thread!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Interesting thread although old thread . So how does the story end? Did you get a dog. I too was puzzled you being given encouragement to go out and find yourself a dog for law enforcement work. In Canada there sure are standards and annual recertification .
Panda colour GSD first showed up as a spontaneous mutation about 20 minutes drive from where I live. 
I don't know folks. Must be something in the water , or contrails in the air . Munchkin cats and Hairless Cats also had spontaneous appearances and they all first showed in the near Toronto area.
These dogs are now specifically bred for the novelty of the colour. I have seen a few. 
Police dog ? not so much -- unless the minutes gained by him being distracted or doing a double take count.

You want a dog for law enforcement -- don't buy a puppy . Do you have any idea the work that goes into developing the talent needed . Are you prepared to do the tracking , the scent work , the tracking, the scent work -- repeated myself because that is the bread and butter of working police dogs , not the bite work -- although a powerfully confident capable dog is absolute necessary , one that will not back off or back out , but good law work keeps the bite work to a minimum -- only when absolutely necessary . 

If you want a good candidate I can help you. Well prepared. Fairly priced .


----------

