# Finding a female to breed my dog with



## Pascha's Dad

Greetings

I have a 3.5 month old Czech breed GSD I brought back from the Czech Republic. I am not planning to neuter him. In fact the breeder strongly advised me against neutering him. He's got incredible pedigree, physique, temperament, and color. He also has humongous paws (larger than most GSD puppies) and he's expected to be well above 100 pounds when fully matured. I don't want his pedigree to go to waist and I would like to get some information on how to eventually meet other owners who are interested in breeding their females. 
I live in New York City and would like to find potential mates with solid pedigrees for my dog. What are my options? 

Thanks


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## Wolfgeist

May we see the puppy's pedigree? Which kennel did it come from?

If your breeder is so interested in using your puppy for breeding, your breeder should help you pay for all the training and health clearances breeding stock should have. It's hard to say whether or not a 3.5 month old puppy will be breed worthy after they reach maturity, most reputable breeders will not pass that judgement until the dog is two years old and has proven it's worthiness for passing on it's genetics.

That being said, your breeder should help you find a female that is suitable. There is more to breeding than tossing two dogs together in a room.

You should begin by learning absolutely everything you can about the breed's history, present and future. Learn about the different bloodlines and the legendary dogs that seem to dominate today's pedigrees. Learn, learn, learn. Train your dog, prove your dog in a variety of venues and run your dog through sport tests, check all the appropriate things like hips and elbows, etc.


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## Kaity

Why anybody wants to breed a 100 pound GSD is beyond me. That to me, is not something to brag about. If he has such an amazing background and pedigree, bloodlines etc why didn't the breeder hold him back, and do you have RIGHTS to stud him out? Also, take up a dog sport. Prove your dog is worth something more than a fancy piece of paper with dogs he came from on it. Join Schutzhund, Ring.. something.


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## Freestep

Ditto what Wild Wolf said. If your breeder thinks is he a suitable prospect for breeding, you should keep in close touch with them as you go about proving his breedworthiness. You will need to get him certified with OFA to be free of hip dysplasia. That cannot be done until two years of age, but you can certainly get a preliminary x-ray before then.

You will need to train and title your dog in some kind of work or sport if you want reputable breeders with good bitches to consider him for stud. Believe me, you don't want to breed him to mediocre bitches--that will just make your dog and your breeder look bad if the offspring are mediocre (or worse). It's not really fair, but it's the stud dog that usually gets blamed if there is a problem with the offspring he sires.

There are many excellent, multi-titled male GSDs out there, and bitch owners have their pick. Of course, they are only going to want to breed to the best males they can find. What will make YOUR male stand out? If he has an outstanding, proven pedigree, he's already got that going for him, but he'll need more than that for the best in the GSD world to take him seriously.

You will likely need a lot of help from your breeder, so if you want to go through with showing and trialing, make sure they are on board and are willing to help guide you. Where did you get your pup?

It's good that you're thinking of this NOW, so that you have time to prepare him. if you're not a breeder with extensive knowledge of bloodlines, and you're not experienced with training/trialing dogs, you will need a lot of help and support as you go forward.

Keep him lean as he grows, and don't get hung up on how big he will get. The standard for a male GSD tops off at about 90 lb; anything bigger than that is considered oversize, so you really don't want a 100+ lb. dog, and neither do bitch owners--they will want a male that is within standard if they are breeding correctly.


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## Jax08

Since he is still a puppy, why don't you wait to arrange a marriage for him and learn a bit about breeding and what makes a dog worthy. A GSD topping well over 100 lbs is so far out of standard that it's crazy. Look up the standards for a German Shepherd, get the health certs done when it's time, get him trialed and tested.

There are alot of good studs out there. You need to prove to the owners of the good females that your dog is the right one and you do that by doing the above.


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## carmspack

The breeder is in Czech , so this is going to be an arm's length relationship with the breeder. Not much he can do .
post the sire and the dam


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## elisabeth_00117

I am very interested in the Czech lines, and would love to see your pups pedigree.

I have a 1/2 Czech female who I am in love with.. her mother being a Ben (dam's side)/Dargo (sire side) grand-daughter. Totally in love with them.. She is a Xant/Puci daughter and is just to die for.. :wub:

What kennel did your pup come from? Are you participating in any venue with him?


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## selzer

Slow down you have time. I hope your dog is not 100 pounds. That is way out of standard. Most working line breeders are not into the big dogs. So, you might have trouble finding a bitch in your lines whose owners want to breed to a large dog like that.

Get involved and build your dog a resume to go along with his pedigree. Dogs are a dime a dozen, yes even over-sized dogs, even imported dogs. A dog can breed multiple bitches per year. To breed your dog, you need to give your dog an edge. You need to prove your dog is special. To attract the owners of the best females, you need to have a top male. Paper alone will not give you that, you need to prove it. You need to get out there and train and trial your dog. Figure out what the bitch-owners want and train in that field. Don't get out there with a green dog and look green, wait until you and your boy are working together like a precision machine, and then take him out and showcase him.

It can take years, but years you have. Lots of time to learn how to do it right if you start now.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Pascha's Dad said:


> Greetings
> ..........would like to find potential mates with solid pedigrees for my dog. What are my options?
> 
> Thanks


You are getting great information from everyone. Please make sure you do realize that a 100 pound dog is way over the standard so some of the best breeders with bitches wouldn't look at your dog for that reason alone.

Added to the fact you have 2 years to have him grow and prove his wonderfulness. His parents aren't enough. Great start, but he need to prove his own worth with health (x-rays are just a start) and temperment (socialized and able to be wonderful in a family and in public) plus his ability to be trained in whatever venue you decide to start up in (Sch? Obedience? Tracking? Herding? )

Good place in NYC you may want to take you pup to and start off on the right foot with training AND the best connections for down the line is Home <--- click that for K9KEY Dog Training School

Great thing about them is they also breed GSD so you may, if your boy turns out as well as you expect, be able to work with them with your breeding plans.


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## vom Eisenherz

Just one comment...this idea that a dog 100lbs is "so far out of the standard" is not necessarily correct. A dog with substantial bone and who is extremely masculine can easily attain 100lbs, especially if kept muscular, and barely be out of the standard, if at all. 

Here are 2 I know personally. 

V Durbas von den Schwedenschanzen - German Shepherd Dog
Durbas is 103lbs

Caleb - German Shepherd Dog
Caleb ran between 98-102, and I keep my dogs THIN. The weight was in a massive head and huge bone structure.

My only point is to keep an open mind and not be armchair quarterbacks; the OP's dog may well turn out close to the standard- weight is more than a number.


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## Cassidy's Mom

vom Eisenherz said:


> Just one comment...this idea that a dog 100lbs is "so far out of the standard" is not necessarily correct. A dog with substantial bone and who is extremely masculine can easily attain 100lbs, especially if kept muscular, and barely be out of the standard, if at all.


:thinking: The German standard tops out at around 88 pounds (as converted from kgs) for a male. 100 pounds is 12 pounds above the high end, which is definitely "out of the standard", no matter how lean and muscular.


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## GsdLoverr729

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: The German standard tops out at around 88 pounds (as converted from kgs) for a male. 100 pounds is 12 pounds above the high end, which is definitely "out of the standard", no matter how lean and muscular.


 :thumbup:


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## robk

A good dog is a good dog. Some just turn out to be bigger than others. The op's dog may turn out awesome and be a very desirable stud dog in time. It's way to early to know. 

Here is more food for thought - Champions are not born they are made. Even if he is the best dog that ever lived, it will be tough to get good breedings with out proper exposure. Many people do not have the experience or resources to take even a great dog to a national level but everyone wants to breed to a champion. The dogs that get the most breedings may not always be the best dogs but the dogs with the most experienced and reputable owners.


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## doggiedad

opcorn:



Pascha's Dad said:


> Greetings
> 
> I have a 3.5 month old Czech breed GSD I brought back from the Czech Republic. I am not planning to neuter him. In fact the breeder strongly advised me against neutering him. He's got incredible pedigree, physique, temperament, and color. He also has humongous paws (larger than most GSD puppies) and he's expected to be well above 100 pounds when fully matured. I don't want his pedigree to go to waist and I would like to get some information on how to eventually meet other owners who are interested in breeding their females.
> I live in New York City and would like to find potential mates with solid pedigrees for my dog. What are my options?
> 
> Thanks


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## Pascha's Dad

Wild Wolf said:


> May we see the puppy's pedigree? Which kennel did it come from?
> 
> If your breeder is so interested in using your puppy for breeding, your breeder should help you pay for all the training and health clearances breeding stock should have. It's hard to say whether or not a 3.5 month old puppy will be breed worthy after they reach maturity, most reputable breeders will not pass that judgement until the dog is two years old and has proven it's worthiness for passing on it's genetics.
> 
> That being said, your breeder should help you find a female that is suitable. There is more to breeding than tossing two dogs together in a room.
> 
> You should begin by learning absolutely everything you can about the breed's history, present and future. Learn about the different bloodlines and the legendary dogs that seem to dominate today's pedigrees. Learn, learn, learn. Train your dog, prove your dog in a variety of venues and run your dog through sport tests, check all the appropriate things like hips and elbows, etc.





Thanks Wild Wolf

Not that it matters but neutering the dog would void the puppy's warranty. Plus I'm not a big fan of neutering dogs to begin with. The breeder has offered to help with breeding when the time comes. I was simply curious to know if there's a forum on this site (or any other site) connecting owners and their breeding prospects. 

Here's his pedigree

Sire:
EXCELLENT Kery Kamos Durabo - German Shepherd Dog

Dam:
SG Brita Polícia-Slovakia - German Shepherd Dog


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## Pascha's Dad

Thanks Vom Eisenherz

The dogs you posted look very similar to my puppy's sire:

EXCELLENT Kery Kamos Durabo - German Shepherd Dog


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## Pascha's Dad

Thanks everyone

I appreciate all the feedback and advise. I'm looking to register and train him at a local schutzhund club. I know I have a long road ahead but I'm excited to see how he turns out. 

Cheers!


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## Pascha's Dad

Kaity said:


> Why anybody wants to breed a 100 pound GSD is beyond me. That to me, is not something to brag about. If he has such an amazing background and pedigree, bloodlines etc why didn't the breeder hold him back, and do you have RIGHTS to stud him out? Also, take up a dog sport. Prove your dog is worth something more than a fancy piece of paper with dogs he came from on it. Join Schutzhund, Ring.. something.



LOL! You seem a bit tense Kaity. I thought having a dog helps most people with their ongoing issues. 
Read more about the Czech breed or maybe take a trip out there and see one in person. They're absolutely magnificent animals. just as magnificent and beautiful as your dog. 

Cheers!


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## Pascha's Dad

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Good place in NYC you may want to take you pup to and start off on the right foot with training AND the best connections for down the line is Home <--- click that for K9KEY Dog Training School
> 
> Great thing about them is they also breed GSD so you may, if your boy turns out as well as you expect, be able to work with them with your breeding plans.


Awesome! I'll definitely get in touch with them. 

Thanks!


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## JakodaCD OA

this boy is only 3.5 months old so he won't necessarily turn out to be 100lbs, but I'll be he's gonna be a gorgeous one)

If your joining a schutzhund club and your breeder is willing to help you thru the process I'd say you've got a good head start..

If that is him in your avatar, he is a REAL CUTIE! 

Good luck with him and have a fun journey


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## Jax08

vom Eisenherz said:


> Just one comment...this idea that a dog 100lbs is "so far out of the standard" is not necessarily correct. A dog with substantial bone and who is extremely masculine can easily attain 100lbs, especially if kept muscular, and barely be out of the standard, if at all.
> 
> Here are 2 I know personally.
> 
> V Durbas von den Schwedenschanzen - German Shepherd Dog
> Durbas is 103lbs
> 
> Caleb - German Shepherd Dog
> Caleb ran between 98-102, and I keep my dogs THIN. The weight was in a massive head and huge bone structure.
> 
> My only point is to keep an open mind and not be armchair quarterbacks; the OP's dog may well turn out close to the standard- weight is more than a number.


I rarely comment on these threads because I am not a breeder, don't know anything about breeding and have nothing to offer so I am rarely an "armchair quarterback"

And I don't disagree with your statement. It was the words the OP used "well above 100 lb" which to me is 120-130 lbs not 102 lbs, that sparked my comment. 

Obviously, nobody knows if he will actually grow to be such a weight and I wasn't speculating on that, just responding to the OP's question.

Would you not agree that a dog "well above" 100 lbs would be out of standard? Would a dog that is lean 120-130 lbs be a dog you would breed too? What is a dog that is "out of standard", in your opinion? 

OP - I'm not trashing your dog in any way! I really want to know the answers to these questions because I really like vom Eisenherz dogs so am curious.


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## ayoitzrimz

MaggieRoseLee said:


> You are getting great information from everyone. Please make sure you do realize that a 100 pound dog is way over the standard so some of the best breeders with bitches wouldn't look at your dog for that reason alone.
> 
> Added to the fact you have 2 years to have him grow and prove his wonderfulness. His parents aren't enough. Great start, but he need to prove his own worth with health (x-rays are just a start) and temperment (socialized and able to be wonderful in a family and in public) plus his ability to be trained in whatever venue you decide to start up in (Sch? Obedience? Tracking? Herding? )
> 
> Good place in NYC you may want to take you pup to and start off on the right foot with training AND the best connections for down the line is Home <--- click that for K9KEY Dog Training School
> 
> Great thing about them is they also breed GSD so you may, if your boy turns out as well as you expect, be able to work with them with your breeding plans.


I second k9key. Steve and Ki know a lot about conformation, schutzhund, breeding, pedigrees, the lots! And they can definitely work with you and help evaluate your pup and maybe even find a suitable female when the time is right if the dog is right.


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## vom Eisenherz

Ok, so let's only breed dogs who are at or under 88lbs, irrespective of bone size/density, musculature, head size, etc., just so long as they're the right height and weight??? 

*We need to breed DOGS, not "standards," hips, heights, weights, etc. Take the WHOLE DOG into account and go from there.* 

Look at some of the old German dogs and then say that the standard is (or should be) that males can't be more than 88lbs. And why are these dogs continuing to get V and SG ratings and KKL1s? I'll answer that...because they bring other things to the table that are more important for the forward progress of the working GSD. Durbas has the most glowing Koer report I have ever read...and yes, he is 103lbs...of solid bone and muscle. 

No wonder we have tall, skinny dogs who look like their dams got hooked up w/a coyote. I have seen showlines who are far taller than Caleb, yet their weight was below or within the standard. They looked like they could blow over in a strong wind. There are many who link fine bones to weaker temperament (discussion for another day...), which I'm not saying I do or don't agree with, just that genetics are funny things and again stressing that the WHOLE DOG needs to be judged, not it's individual physical attributes.

What a silly thing to get hung up on.......an otherwise excellent breeding prospect should be overlooked due to weight? I'm not saying anything about the OP's particular dog, just pointing out how silly saying a 100lb dog is automatically not a breeding prospect is.


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## hallix

I want pictures of this puppy. I LOVE Kery Kamos Durabo! He is one of my favorite Czech males right now.


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## Wolfgeist

vom Eisenherz said:


> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=483481
> Caleb - German Shepherd Dog
> Caleb ran between 98-102, and I keep my dogs THIN. The weight was in a massive head and huge bone structure.


Ohh, Caleb... *fans self*


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## Freestep

vom Eisenherz said:


> What a silly thing to get hung up on.......an otherwise excellent breeding prospect should be overlooked due to weight? I'm not saying anything about the OP's particular dog, just pointing out how silly saying a 100lb dog is automatically not a breeding prospect is.


I take it you have dogs that are over standard weight? 

I don't think anyone said a 100 lb dog is "automatically not a breeding prospect", but it's worthwhile pointing out that the standard tops out at 88 lb. That's not to say that an 89 pound dog is automatically out, but you have to draw the line somewhere. If a dog weighs 102 lb and is outstanding in every other aspect, I agree he may have something to bring to the table... but care should be taken to ensure that size doesn't get out of control. I don't think we ought to be breeding *for* oversize.


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## NancyJ

Pascha's Dad said:


> Thanks Wild Wolf
> 
> Here's his pedigree
> 
> Sire:
> EXCELLENT Kery Kamos Durabo - German Shepherd Dog
> 
> Dam:
> SG Brita Polícia-Slovakia - German Shepherd Dog


 
You can register on PDB and enter your puppy linking him up to his parents. 

He is a handsome little fella. Like others said "proof is in the pudding" and people you would want to consider will want to see his accomplishments, him, and his pedigree before considering a breeding.

But, the Czech and West German Working (about 1/4 of his pedigree) lines are VERY widely used so breeding him would not preserve something unusual-though I don't know enough to comment on how they combine.

As far as linking up and studding out a dog. Not on this forum.


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## Pascha's Dad

hallix said:


> I want pictures of this puppy. I LOVE Kery Kamos Durabo! He is one of my favorite Czech males right now.


I have a few pictures in an album on my profile. Feel free to check them out


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## Pascha's Dad

vom Eisenherz said:


> Ok, so let's only breed dogs who are at or under 88lbs, irrespective of bone size/density, musculature, head size, etc., just so long as they're the right height and weight???
> 
> *We need to breed DOGS, not "standards," hips, heights, weights, etc. Take the WHOLE DOG into account and go from there.*
> 
> Look at some of the old German dogs and then say that the standard is (or should be) that males can't be more than 88lbs. And why are these dogs continuing to get V and SG ratings and KKL1s? I'll answer that...because they bring other things to the table that are more important for the forward progress of the working GSD. Durbas has the most glowing Koer report I have ever read...and yes, he is 103lbs...of solid bone and muscle.
> 
> No wonder we have tall, skinny dogs who look like their dams got hooked up w/a coyote. I have seen showlines who are far taller than Caleb, yet their weight was below or within the standard. They looked like they could blow over in a strong wind. There are many who link fine bones to weaker temperament (discussion for another day...), which I'm not saying I do or don't agree with, just that genetics are funny things and again stressing that the WHOLE DOG needs to be judged, not it's individual physical attributes.
> 
> What a silly thing to get hung up on.......an otherwise excellent breeding prospect should be overlooked due to weight? I'm not saying anything about the OP's particular dog, just pointing out how silly saying a 100lb dog is automatically not a breeding prospect is.


Amen to that! I got this dog after doing extensive research. A GSD was and has been my dream dog since I was child. I was very fearful of ending up with a GSD with bad hips & elbows. The breeder I got my little boy from has been breeding working line & border patrol Czech dogs for a few decades now. If you read about the history of the DDR/Czech breed you'd understand why they tend to be bigger boned, with blocky heads, & fewer hip & elbow problems. Their studs are all medium/large dogs, top rated, & absolutely magnificent to look at. I'd consider myself lucky if my pup ends up looking like one of them with such excellent proportions. If he ends up like what the breeder promises, screw breeding I'd clone this guy if I could. No matter how many pounds over the "magic number" of 88 lbs. What a silly, useless standard?! In fact, based on his proportions now, I'd be disappointed if he ends up less than a 100 lbs. 
I'm feeding him moderate amounts of Orijen large breed puppy food and he weighs about 35 lbs at this point. 
As far as socializition goes, streets of Manhattan are a great start. He gets stopped at every corner by countless pedestrians & tourists & he absolutely loves people & the attention he gets. He's incredible with kids as well. So I got very little to worry with that. My only concern is when he's on the leash he gets too excited & barks at other dogs. He's going to puppy classes & occasional doggy daycare to get used to other dogs. 
Like I mentioned he's been such a joy to own & if he maintains his qualities & proportion right through adulthood I'll be one proud parent, no matter how many pounds above some arbitrary number. 

Thanks for your post!


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## cliffson1

I will send you an analysis of the pedigree as you requested in the pm you sent, there is good and maybe not so good. At best his partners for breeding should be chosen carefully, don't want to derail the thread with universal opinions, and you have already received many responses.....nice puppy.


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## Lucy Dog

A GSD in Manhattan?!? I'm there everyday and all I ever see are little fluffy apartment dogs. I don't think I've ever seen a GSD walking around. Maybe a couple senior ones, but that's it. Completely off topic, but how do you exercise him? 

Now I know to keep my eyes out. If you ever hear a random person yelling PASCHA from a car, you'll know who it is!


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## vom Eisenherz

Freestep said:


> I take it you have dogs that are over standard weight?
> 
> .


 Not a one.


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## gagsd

Not to derail..... But I have met several V rated dogs that were significantly above standard.


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## hallix

I don't know if this is who you got him from or not, but I know he has Kery litters sometimes, but Hans Prager at Alpine K9 usually is open to helping his puppy buyers learn about the pedigrees and what would pair well with them. It might be worth it to contact him as well.


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## hallix

Also, he's adorable and I love his name!


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## Freestep

Pascha's Dad said:


> What a silly, useless standard?! In fact, based on his proportions now, I'd be disappointed if he ends up less than a 100 lbs.


If you are serious about breeding, you'd be well advised to pay attention to that "silly, useless standard", as it is the blueprint for the breed and is what all GSDs are judged by.


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## vom Eisenherz

Just for reference on my weight point (bone, head, etc.).....here is Caleb, weighing in somewhere around 98lbs or so at the time this pic was taken, next to an Am. bred dog I was training, weighing around 80lbs. The Am. dog was a basketcase w/other dogs, so bad that he had landed both owners in the hospital w/back injuries due to being dragged down the street. I was working on desensitizing him to other dogs (hence the chain for back-up) and posed these two to show his owner his progress. 

Anyway...which one of these dogs appears more outside the standard? Granted, it's just one photo, but Caleb is closer to the camera and should appear much larger. My only point is that weight is more than a number and dogs should not be bred nor dismissed from breeding based on a number alone. 

Gagsd...absolutely. That's what I was saying- the dogs I used as examples are hardly BYB freaks, way outside of the standard. Heck, I just used V Boy von Zorra for stud. He's not exactly tiny.....


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## Elaine

Actually, Boy is well within standard and is nowhere near a hundred pounds. Last I heard, he's around 80 pounds. His huge head makes him look a lot bigger than he really is.


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## MustLoveGSDs

If I wanted a 100+ lb dog I would get a different breed. A GSD is a medium sized working breed according to both written standards. Bigger is not always better.


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## robk

Weight is a funny thing with dog people. I am not sure why it is obsessed over. The OPs dog will probably be magnificent. However, I get the most annoying comments about my dog because he is smaller than most people expect a GSD to be. He is 15 months old and under 70 lbs. He has impeccable character and loves to work. To me it is the attitude of the dog that counts. However everywhere I go people have to tell me about how much bigger (meaning better) their 100 lb dog is. It doesn't matter that their back yard bred dogs are fear aggressive and have no drive. It is only size that matters in America.


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## FlyAway

I admit that I do not breed my dogs. The reason is, there are so many good dogs out there and my dog's genes aren't necessary for the gene pool. 

But I was wondering, the puppy is on 4 months old, shouldn't you wait for him to grow up and see what he turns into? During the next 2 years you can take him to shows and clubs so people can see what you have. If he turns out to be as good as you expect, you will get plenty of interested parties. 

If he turns out big, you can breed him to a smaller female.


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## MustLoveGSDs

robk, I get the same comments about my GSD and Doberman. Both are around 75 lbs and my GSD has a smaller frame. My Doberman is correctly bred to standard at 27 1/2" tall. I will run into people who tell me "we used to/or have a Doberman that is soooo much bigger than yours."

Like I'm supposed to be impressed? Im sorry that I think a Doberman with a great Dane sized frame looks ridiculous and is not good for their health. Depending on the type of person, I'll educate or just smile and nod while throwing my proverbial WTF hands in the air. It's always fun to get the people that brag about their "warlock" Doberman or "king" shepherd. I enjoy raining on their parade.


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## robk

There is nothing wrong with any size dog that can get the job done. Remember, the GSD is a working dog.


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## vom Eisenherz

Elaine, I'm not sure what your point is in your comment about what you "heard" about Boy. I wasn't saying anything bad about him. I met Boy. He's large, his head is very nice, but not extreme. He's a lovely specimen of a proper GSD, imo. You want to gauge size, here he is tied with my 76lb V rated bitch. He's not a small dog. This weight thing is RIDICULOUS is my only point. It's totally silly that people are all hung up on a NUMBER ON A SCALE and not the overall dog. Bigger isn't "better", but it's not worse either! 

And Rob, ever notice how those morons are always exaggerating their dog's weight by about 30lbs? I love it; their "130lb GSD" always seemed to be smaller boned and shorter than my 95lb-er. They always have those fat dogs who look like sausages set on toothpicks for legs. Funny how that works- either their dog's weight is very well hidden  or they are flat out nuts (not to mention ignorant bragging about something sooo stupid.)Or the people who argue with me over what *my* dogs weigh, insisting Capri is 85+ and Caleb was 120+. Um, yeah....sure.:crazy:


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## Jax08

> It's totally silly that people are all hung up on a NUMBER ON A SCALE and not the overall dog. Bigger isn't "better", but it's not worse either!


Nobody was hung up on weight. I asked you a question, thinking that 120 lb dog would be so far out of standard that the size might not be able to be corrected by breeding to a smaller dog, and it was completely blown out of proportion from there. I won't make that mistake again.


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## Freestep

Really? You're using Doggie Porn to prove a point?

I'm with you on people exaggerating their dogs' weight. I run a grooming salon, and over the phone, men always overestimate their dog's weight, and women always underestimate. I have a weight limit of 75 lb. due to doctor's orders, which I do not strictly adhere to. A woman told me her Golden Retriever weighs "about 80 lb", and I should have known better, but I made the appointment... when the dog came in, I knew he was in no way 80 lb, so I put him on the scale, in front of his owner, and he weighed 103.  The woman was shocked. Shocked! And said "Oh, he's gained weight!!" ... well, that's what happens when you overfeed and don't pay attention.

Men, on the other hand, want their dogs to seem as big as possible. It's like those fishing stories.  I had a guy tell me his Golden was "about 90 pounds". But the dog was 16 years old, and I thought... #1, this is a *guy* talking about size. #2, a Golden Retriever wouldn't live to be 16 if he was overweight. I booked him an appointment.

The dog weighed 68 lb. And thank God, because the poor guy barely had any legs left. Were he 90 lb, he wouldn't have been able to stand up, let alone walk.


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## vom Eisenherz

Jax08 said:


> Nobody was hung up on weight. I asked you a question, thinking that 120 lb dog would be so far out of standard that the size might not be able to be corrected by breeding to a smaller dog, and it was completely blown out of proportion from there. I won't make that mistake again.


 Not sure why you would feel singled out; I wasn't aware I had replied directly to you even once. I was merely paraphrasing and generalizing the attitude toward larger-framed dogs. To be honest, I didn't even remember your comments. I just skim the board when I have lulls at work. 

Freestep, my apologies. I would've thought on an adult, dog-enthusiast forum, specifically a thread dedicated to breeding dogs, that the sight of 2 dogs breeding would be taken more matter-of-factly than it would in a junior high classroom. I did think it proved a certain point, and the private messages I'm receiving are concurring with my assessment. 

I'm sorry if it was offensive to you. To me, it was just basic animal behavior and the only photo I had of those two side by side. Elaine made a comment about Boy's size (for the record, he is around 88lbs at working weight, probably more not competing) and I was illustrating my previous point.


----------



## Elaine

vom Eisenherz said:


> I would've thought on an adult, dog-enthusiast forum, specifically a thread dedicated to breeding dogs, that the sight of 2 dogs breeding would be taken more matter-of-factly than it would in a junior high classroom.


Posting pictures like this is very tasteless. Taking it in the first place is even more tasteless, bordering on freakish. Who does that?!


----------



## Shaina

I mean, a breeder could use it for proof of a breeding, if nothing else?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

vom Eisenherz said:


> Just for reference on my weight point (bone, head, etc.).....here is Caleb, weighing in somewhere around 98lbs or so at the time this pic was taken, next to an Am. bred dog I was training, weighing around 80lbs. The Am. dog was a basketcase w/other dogs, so bad that he had landed both owners in the hospital w/back injuries due to being dragged down the street. I was working on desensitizing him to other dogs (hence the chain for back-up) and posed these two to show his owner his progress.
> 
> Anyway...which one of these dogs appears more outside the standard? Granted, it's just one photo, but Caleb is closer to the camera and should appear much larger. My only point is that weight is more than a number and dogs should not be bred nor dismissed from breeding based on a number alone.
> 
> Gagsd...absolutely. That's what I was saying- the dogs I used as examples are hardly BYB freaks, way outside of the standard. Heck, I just used V Boy von Zorra for stud. He's not exactly tiny.....



The black american dog looks fat to me. Caleb looks perfect, especially with his silly ears  What a cutie! Does he always pose with them like that?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

"Yup! I'm 130 pound of pure German muscle."


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

"Well I am 150 and I could kick your butt!"


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

"And though she be but little, she is fierce."
-Shakespeare


----------



## vom Eisenherz

Elaine said:


> Posting pictures like this is very tasteless. Taking it in the first place is even more tasteless, bordering on freakish. Who does that?!


Yes, Shaina...figures that probably the youngest person in this thread is proving to be one of the brightest. Stud owners do that, professional dog folks, to show the owner of the bitch that what they paid good money for was done. 

Elaine, I find it ironic that you are calling Jen & Bill freaks. 

I am terribly sorry to have brought them or their dog up on what is proving to be a discussion dominated by a very ignorant but very vocal minority. I would never have brought anyone else into this but they and their dogs seem well-respected, which is the point I was trying to make about breeding DOGS, not numbers.


----------



## vom Eisenherz

x0emiroxy0x said:


> the black american dog looks fat to me. Caleb looks perfect, especially with his silly ears  what a cutie! Does he always pose with them like that?


roflmao


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

vom Eisenherz said:


> roflmao


----------



## JakodaCD OA

How did this go SOOOOOO OFF TRACK? The OP was looking for a female to breed, I think he got his answers and suggestions, 

May be another thread could be started if one wishes to talk about over standard dogs, which has been hashed out so much it gives me a headache OR this one can just die a peaceful death OR be closed


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Sorry, I thought the pictures were funny. :/ I needed some humor today.


----------



## Xeph

x0emiroxy0x, the dog you called "fat" is Caleb. The dog with the "Silly ears" is the American dog.

87 lb Strauss









You know how much strangers usually guess him to be? 100-120. And then they get disappointed that he's "so small". Ugh.

He's 27" at the withers and 87 pounds LEAN. Come on, now.


----------



## Jax08

vom Eisenherz said:


> Not sure why you would feel singled out; I wasn't aware I had replied directly to you even once.


because the words you quoted came from my post


----------



## vom Eisenherz

LOL, Xeph. That's a well-constructed boy. He must not be a pound under 120.  

And I'm pretty sure that the Caleb comment was just another snide remark. There's not much to criticize with him, but certain people will always find something to pick at. It doesn't take a thing away from him or me or our relationship, so I chose to laugh it off. 

Jax, I didn't see where I excerpted anything from your post. Sorry if I missed it.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

vom Eisenherz --- Now I know why you posted ROFLMAO!! Sorry to have offended your dog! You would probably think my 2 year old looks too skinny. To each his own. 

It's just like women....some men like them skinny, some like them athletic, and some like them with curves. And some care about intelligence! lol jk

Honestly, I'm no breeder and I've only had one german shepherd so I'm no expert, just like my dogs on the leaner side.


----------



## Jax08

Caleb is gorgeous. Love those black dogs.


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## x0emiroxy0x

vom Eisenherz said:


> LOL, Xeph. That's a well-constructed boy. He must not be a pound under 120.
> 
> And I'm pretty sure that the Caleb comment was just another snide remark. I think it's pretty obvious to all but possibly Ray Charles that the black dog is not American, nor is he fat, if that could even be judged from that angle! I chose not to bother responding.
> 
> Jax, I didn't see where I excerpted anything from your post. Sorry if I missed it.


 Sorry you took that as a snide remark. I'm no breeder and honestly nowadays the line between American and other is hard to draw unless the dog is standing and I can see the angulation in the rear (at least to an untrained eye like mine) Unfortunately, it seems that the standard for the different lines isn't as regulated as it used to be. Show me a dog of each line from 20 years ago and I can pick them out correctly!


----------



## sitstay

vom Eisenherz said:


> I would've thought on an adult, dog-enthusiast forum, specifically a thread dedicated to breeding dogs, that the sight of 2 dogs breeding would be taken more matter-of-factly than it would in a junior high classroom.


Dog enthusiast, yes! Adult? Not so much. There are many ages here, from 13 year old kids to members in their 70's and maybe 80's. 

We can't cuss here, or even use symbols to denote cussing, because this is considered a family friendly board. Doggy porn hasn't been addressed in all the years that I have been a member here. But then, it has only been in the last month or so that pictures of copulating dogs have been publicly posted. At least, that I remember.
Sheilah
Sheilah


----------



## Xeph

I don't consider dogs breeding to be "porn", but ok....

I (pseudo) helped with a dog breeding at a social get together. There were dozens of people there. Nobody balked at it


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

My mother never let me go to those kind of parties


----------



## Wolfgeist

x0emiroxy0x said:


> My mother never let me go to those kind of parties


:rofl:


----------



## sitstay

Xeph said:


> I don't consider dogs breeding to be "porn", but ok....
> 
> I (pseudo) helped with a dog breeding at a social get together. There were dozens of people there. Nobody balked at it


One of the working definitions of porn is material "of an explicit sexual subject matter". A photo of two dogs "tied" in the process of mating would fit that. It is explicit and it is of a sexual nature (dependent on agreeing that procreation is sexual in nature). 

If I really wanted to be a smart alec I would mention that "(pseudo) helping" at a breeding (read "mating", read "sexual encounter") that was also a "social get together" could be defined as an orgy.

The time to chuckle would be now, since both are meant tongue in cheek. I would find an a little emoticon for that...but that emoticon would ABSOLUTELY look pornographic.
Sheilah


----------



## selzer

Yeah, not necessarily adults here. While, the photo isn't disgusting, pointing it out, well, I don't know. If the bitch-owner does not trust the stud owner, the bitch-owner should present her body with her bitch to ensure the correct dog was mated properly to the correct stud, the correct number of times. 

Taking a picture is kind of ew. 

I am present when my bitches are bred, and the stud owner offers to have me feel the knot or tie or whatever. Sorry, but I'll take your word for it. Just one more reason not to be a stud owner. Ick ick ick!!!. 

This is the first time though that I have seen a picture of a tie posted on the site -- just when I thought I have seen it all on here, someone has to wow me. 

I have to agree, it is really in poor taste, and now the site will probably have to create a rule that pictures of canines in the process of mating will not be allowed. Which is not the end of the world. But really, it shouldn't be necessary.

I am trying to figure out what kind of social event might have dog mating on the side. This thread has some oddities to be sure.


----------



## vom Eisenherz

Here you go, boys and girls. Forget that horrible, pornographic photo. THIS is how we get puppies:


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I don't see anyone getting "hung up on a NUMBER ON A SCALE". :thinking: A 100+ pound dog IS over the standard - pointing that out is not a judgement, it's just a simple fact. The standard does not make any reference to the muscle and bone of the dog, just the height and weight. 

If the standard is not important to you, that's perfectly okay. Many breeders don't seem to care about it. And I do agree that health and temperament are much more important than size and weight, but the standard is still the standard, and over that is oversized.


----------



## qbchottu

vom Eisenherz said:


> And I'm pretty sure that the Caleb comment was just another snide remark. *There's not much to criticize with him*, but certain people will always find something to pick at.


Interesting comment 


On the mating picture:
Are you guys seriously offended by that? I'm especially surprised at you as a breeder Sue. Many breeders will take pictures of a breeding so you can prove that a live breeding occurred between said dogs. Especially in Germany where you _have_ to do live breedings. Some people even take videos. I've heard of others keeping a collection of pictures so breedings can be properly documented in case of a dispute. Especially with the big stud dogs in Germany that might get a 100 breedings a year for several years, after being studded out so frequently, they will sometimes stop breeding naturally. To ensure full transparency, documentation in the form of pictures and videos can be an asset if a dispute occurs later on. If a bitch of mine is bred in the future, I'll take a picture just in case. It's not because I'm a perv or a weirdo, it's because I want it for documentation purposes. But I wouldn't necessarily post them on a public forum... 

I understand what Xeph is talking about. At my club, we frequently do breedings after training. We don't do it around newbies, but if it's just team members, then there is no issue. I've helped out by holding the female. While the dogs are tied, we hang out just the same. Some ties can last 40 minutes so the rest of us go about our business just the same. 
What are we supposed to do? Get the dogs a private room with roses and scented candles? They're dogs! They breed for 2 seconds, stay tied for longer and then it's over. I can't understand how this is considered offensive. It's nature. How do you think all of our puppies were made? 

However, I do agree that it's an odd picture to post in order to compare size... There are less questionable ways to get that point across. Obviously for people that aren't used to this type of thing, it can be a jarring picture. No reason to unnecessarily offend others with more delicate sensibilities.


----------



## GatorDog

I also found that comment interesting...Must be a 'perfect' GSD..

If breeders aren't going to adhere to a standard, then there really is no use for a standard at all, is there? Nobody NEEDS to breed dogs, they want to. A good breeder will try and adhere to the standard as closely as possible, but I guess I'm ignorant for thinking that..


----------



## qbchottu

GatorDog said:


> I also found that comment interesting...Must be a 'perfect' GSD..
> 
> If breeders aren't going to adhere to a standard, then there really is no use for a standard at all, is there? Nobody NEEDS to breed dogs, they want to. A good breeder will try and adhere to the standard as closely as possible, but I guess I'm ignorant for thinking that..


Good call. I was wondering about that as well. So if we start excusing anything and everything, at which point we do just chuck the standard right out the window? I don't think it's doing anybody any favors if the standard is completely disregarded and deviations from the norm are excused on a whim.


----------



## middleofnowhere

Geeze our club is tame! All we do is train dogs and argue about politics! And to think that we have reservations about politics making people a bit uncomfortable...


----------



## vom Eisenherz

What's so interesting about saying there wasn't much to criticize about Caleb? Odd remark to make and just leave hanging. Not a person who ever met him had much bad to say about him (experienced anyway...inexperienced were typically scared, lol).

As far as the pic, it's the only pic I had with the two of them together, period. Never in my wildest dreams would I think that in the BREEDING section of a DOG FORUM that dogs BREEDING would be offensive. From now on, I will promise to only say "awww" and "oh, that's so cute!" and "oh, I love puppy breath!" as I see this is not really a dog breeding-friendly forum. 

I have received several interesting messages about the "hazing" that the mega-members seem to impose on anyone who doesn't post much and I admit I do find it a bit odd. I appreciate the kind words, but I'm not offended by the snippy comments and have a pretty thick skin. I'm not one to duck and cover, but I have to say that I can't think of a time when I've encountered such unfounded animosity and just plain cattiness since high school....not even on PDB. It's kind of a shame. There are people here who want to learn and they're forced to read quietly and send private message, for fear of being ganged up on. Pretty sad that I have people thanking me for posting info beyond "my baby puppy was attacked at the dog park."

Jen


----------



## GatorDog

vom Eisenherz said:


> What's so interesting about saying there wasn't much to criticize about Caleb? Odd remark to make and just leave hanging. Not a person who ever met him had much bad to say about him (experienced anyway...inexperienced were typically scared, lol).
> 
> As far as the pic, it's the only pic I had with the two of them together, period. Never in my wildest dreams would I think that in the BREEDING section of a DOG FORUM that dogs BREEDING would be offensive. From now on, I will promise to only say "awww" and "oh, that's so cute!" and "oh, I love puppy breath!" as I see this is not really a dog breeding-friendly forum.
> 
> I have received several interesting messages about the "hazing" that the mega-members seem to impose on anyone who doesn't post much and I admit I do find it a bit odd. I appreciate the kind words, but I'm not offended by the snippy comments and have a pretty thick skin. I'm not one to duck and cover, but I have to say that I can't think of a time when I've encountered such unfounded animosity and just plain cattiness since high school....not even on PDB. It's kind of a shame. There are people here who want to learn and they're forced to read quietly and send private message, for fear of being ganged up on. Pretty sad that I have people thanking me for posting info beyond "my baby puppy was attacked at the dog park."
> 
> Jen


Interesting..You remark about everyone's cattiness, yet you called those who disagreed with you ignorant.


----------



## qbchottu

Jen, you can't even for one second imagine how others that don't have the exposure that you do would feel taken back by a picture of two dogs in a tie? I have no problem with it. As I stated above, I find it odd that people would have an issue with it. But I've been around it and know that world. For people that have no clue, don't you think that it might for just one second offend their sensibilities in a way? Especially when they've had no warning? I agree with you on your points, but try to see it the other way as well. 

Also, members post "real" comments all the time, not just "cute pup". The WAY you come across matters... What'd they teach us in grade school? Treat others the way you wish to be treated.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Off topic, but vom Eisenherz, just wanted to say thanks for the question/advice on my thread. I'm not sure if you had already ready the comment I put on this thread about me having no experience with breeding and my dog being on the skinny side, but even if you had already read it and realized I had no bad intentions towards you, I really appreciate it.  Many people here will argue with you about an opinion on one thread and then bash the crap out of you when you really need help on another thread to "get back".

And I went to your website and the other pictures of Caleb do not look fat. Sometimes when they sit and their fur gets bunched up, they have unflattering angles just like humans! You should post the link to your site so people can see that your dogs are not oversized (if you care about proving it)


----------



## Rei

Xeph said:


> I don't consider dogs breeding to be "porn", but ok....


Me neither... and to call a breeder "freakish"? I'm sorry, but to be honest I do find _that _to be uncalled for. I did not expect that to come from the member it did, but it's also true that I am reacting under a different mindset - I was actually under the impression that it's not an uncommon practice (to take a picture of the tie)... I browse American Pit Bull Terrier pedigrees frequently and many (possibly even the majority) of the litter/breeding announcements I have seen include such a picture. 

Do I prefer not to see it? Well, yes, that would be preferred, but at this point it does not bother me, either, and even if it did I would not classify it as "porn". I understand the dictionary definition may have such a picture falling under such a category, but "inappropriate" doesn't automatically mean "porn". I feel that it is offensive to the breeders involved to make such a statement and do see it as accusatory. 

And yes, I could be considered one of the more juvenile/younger members of the forum. I skimmed and scrolled past the picture and post without a second thought, until I read the reactions following. I don't deny that it wasn't the most appropriate choice for simple size comparison, but I am surprised with the reactions nonetheless. 




qbchottu said:


> Interesting comment
> 
> 
> On the mating picture:
> Are you guys seriously offended by that? I'm especially surprised at you as a breeder Sue. Many breeders will take pictures of a breeding so you can prove that a live breeding occurred between said dogs. Especially in Germany where you _have_ to do live breedings. Some people even take videos. I've heard of others keeping a collection of pictures so breedings can be properly documented in case of a dispute. Especially with the big stud dogs in Germany that might get a 100 breedings a year for several years, after being studded out so frequently, they will sometimes stop breeding naturally. To ensure full transparency, documentation in the form of pictures and videos can be an asset if a dispute occurs later on. If a bitch of mine is bred in the future, I'll take a picture just in case. It's not because I'm a perv or a weirdo, it's because I want it for documentation purposes. But I wouldn't necessarily post them on a public forum...
> 
> I understand what Xeph is talking about. At my club, we frequently do breedings after training. We don't do it around newbies, but if it's just team members, then there is no issue. I've helped out by holding the female. While the dogs are tied, we hang out just the same. Some ties can last 40 minutes so the rest of us go about our business just the same.
> What are we supposed to do? Get the dogs a private room with roses and scented candles? They're dogs! They breed for 2 seconds, stay tied for longer and then it's over. I can't understand how this is considered offensive. It's nature. How do you think all of our puppies were made?
> 
> However, I do agree that it's an odd picture to post in order to compare size... There are less questionable ways to get that point across. Obviously for people that aren't used to this type of thing, it can be a jarring picture. No reason to unnecessarily offend others with more delicate sensibilities.


:thumbup::thumbup:

Regarding the comments on breeding to standard - I understand where vom Eisenherz is coming from. Breeding a German Shepherd Dog is not simply breeding a dog within size requirements set forth by the standard. In my personal opinion, an oversized or undersized GSD could still be considered an excellent representation of the breed, and on the same note, a dog should not be discounted because of size. 

I think it is easy to say that a dog should not be bred due to size because it is a tangible requirement that can be unbiasedly assessed, unlike many other important aspects of the breed. When people see a dog, they will not automatically ask "tell me more about this dog's nerves and thresholds" or "well, I believe this dog's thresholds are too low and that he is too sharp to be good representative of the breed". Often those elements of temperament are difficult to judge against a standard, and frankly, to standardize in the first place. Size and color, on the other hand, is the easiest target. But considering the breed is a working dog first and foremost, I feel that size should never be what makes or breaks the dog as a breeding prospect, when there is so much more to consider in what makes the total German Shepherd.


----------



## GatorDog

Rei said:


> Me neither... and to call a breeder "freakish"? I'm sorry, but to be honest I do find _that _tasteless and uncalled for. I did not expect that to come from the member it did, but it's also true that I am reacting under a different mindset - I was actually under the impression that it's not an uncommon practice (to take a picture of the tie)... I browse American Pit Bull Terrier pedigrees frequently and many (possibly even the majority) of the litter/breeding announcements I have seen include such a picture.
> 
> Do I prefer not to see it? Well, yes, that would be preferred, but at this point it does not bother me, either, and even if it did I would not classify it as "porn". I understand the dictionary definition may have such a picture falling under such a category, but "inappropriate" doesn't automatically mean "porn". I feel that it is offensive to the breeders involved to make such a statement and do see it as accusatory.
> 
> And yes, I could be considered one of the more juvenile/younger members of the forum. I skimmed and scrolled past the picture and post without a second thought, until I read the reactions following. I don't deny that it wasn't the most appropriate choice for simple size comparison, but I am surprised with the reactions nonetheless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> Regarding the comments on breeding to standard - I understand where vom Eisenherz is coming from. Breeding a German Shepherd Dog is not simply breeding a dog within size requirements set forth by the standard. In my personal opinion, an oversized or undersized GSD could still be considered an excellent representation of the breed, and on the same note, a dog should not be discounted because of size.
> 
> I think it is easy to say that a dog should not be bred due to size because it is a tangible requirement that can be unbiasedly assessed, unlike many other important aspects of the breed. When people see a dog, they will not automatically ask "tell me more about this dog's nerves and thresholds" or "well, I believe this dog's thresholds are too low and that he is too sharp to be good representative of the breed". Often those elements of temperament are difficult to judge against a standard, and frankly, to standardize in the first place. Size and color, on the other hand, is the easiest target.* But considering the breed is a working dog first and foremost, I feel that size should never be what makes or breaks the dog as a breeding prospect, when there is so much more to consider in what makes the total German Shepherd.*


I don't think anyone here would disagreed with you on that one. There were multiple posters who merely stated what the standard weight calls for.


----------



## vom Eisenherz

NEVER MIND. Pointless.


----------



## GatorDog

vom Eisenherz said:


> You're welcome on the reply. Sad that you feel you have to thank someone for trying to help your dog.  Regarding my dog, Caleb's ribs showed his whole life. Not going to bother posting the thousands of ribby pics I have of him to prove a point. It never crossed my mind that anyone could think he was American, so it didn't occur to me that your post could be anything other than yet another veiled nasty remark. I could show you pics of him that show his physique, but I'm afraid his penis or testicles may be evident, so I'd better not.  But seriously, if you were honestly confused, then I apologize for misunderstanding. So, no worries there.
> 
> Not sure why this turned into a thread about me and my dog. I was making a point on size. Why was my dog dragged into it when I posted others who are even larger??? Interesting, if you want me to believe this is about the standard and not about being obnoxiously cliquey.
> 
> As to the tie, my mistake. Can someone please direct me to the breeding section of the forum? That way, people will expect breeding topics to be presented and if those offend them, they will likely stay away. :laugh:
> 
> I did not treat anyone in any bad manner from the beginning, so save that "treat others....". I trust none of _you_ are getting the influx of emails I am about how nasty _I_ am just for the **** of it...which is what I'm getting. If you want people of different experience levels to post, perhaps you might consider your attitudes and overall nastiness. *You remind me of a bunch of insecure, nasty high school girls. Sorry to be blunt and insulting, but this is ridiculous. Safety in numbers, huh? I'm not exactly new to the dog forum world, but I am still getting a good chuckle out of this one. *
> 
> Gotta go watch some more doggy porn now (Capri is nursing).


:headbang: You're such a charmer.


----------



## Rei

GatorDog said:


> I don't think anyone here would disagreed with you on that one. There were multiple posters who merely stated what the standard weight calls for.


Absolutely, and when I read the original post, that was certainly my first response, too. "Well over 100 lbs? GREAT :crazy:" and I'll be lying if I say otherwise.

I just think that given vom Eisenher's personal investment in the breed and working dogs, as a breeder, and the general tone this forum admittedly has towards oversized German Shepherds... I can understand where her response is coming from. I think there was some misinterpretation of the message she was originally trying to deliver regarding size and the standard, but may just be me.


----------



## qbchottu

:spittingcoffee:

Oh Jen....
Never change!


----------



## Xeph

Dear Jen,
I definitely want to be your friend

Amazed that so many people think that breeding picture is offensive. Or even shocking. You can't even see anybody's bits! If Jen hadn't said anything, they'd just look like they were standing next to each other.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

vom Eisenherz said:


> NEVER MIND. Pointless.


I think this is where the whole thread has lead - pointless. And I don't mean your post Vom Eisenherz.

I can't stand when someone comes here trying to learn about something, and the threads end up like this. 

My goodness... grow up people.

I don't usually comment in this manner, but gesh! It's so annoying to read through a thread and see it derailed to this degree!

Can we please get back on topic now?!


----------



## vom Eisenherz

Xeph, being my friend is political suicide. 

But I'd love to have you. I haven't been to a good party in a while.


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Well, pass the koolaid, I'm coming to your party!


----------



## Shaina

vom Eisenherz said:


> Xeph, being my friend is political suicide.
> 
> But I'd love to have you. I haven't been to a good party in a while.


Hey, I'll take you as a friend too - and that "fat" Caleb off your hands, if you are looking for a "standard" dog..


----------



## Xeph

Due to faults, every dog is out of standard, doncha think?

And I've never been much for politics and junk


----------



## NancyJ

BACK to the OP - goodness how derailed this thread got.

As your dog grows. I just spent 5 hours training with several LE K9 units yesterday and most of the male GSDs were probably in the 80 to 90lb range (and the Malnois was smaller) They had a little female there (not a patrol dog though) probably in the 50lb range. 

If you think about what the dogs are used for, and too big gets too big for throwing over your shoulders or hanging from a harness. Not to mention a shorterned service life. Even a 65lb Malnois can knock a man off his feet

So I would keep the breed standard and balance in mind. I think one of the reasons Czech dogs have been coming in so nicely and have improved (IMO) the GSDs here is their working ability in real life. Always keep that in mind. Pedigrees are fine but it is the dog, plus the pedigree.

Here is a question? Other than muscle most of the Czech dogs I have seen have not been particularly large. More compact but very well muscled...


----------



## GatorDog

It's really disappointing to see that this is the reaction when someone is disagreed with.


----------



## GatorDog

jocoyn said:


> BACK to the OP - goodness how derailed this thread got.
> 
> As your dog grows. I just spent 5 hours training with several LE K9 units yesterday and most of the male GSDs were probably in the 80 to 90lb range (and the Malnois was smaller) They had a little female there (not a patrol dog though) probably in the 50lb range.
> 
> If you think about what the dogs are used for, and too big gets too big for throwing over your shoulders or hanging from a harness. Not to mention a shorterned service life. Even a 65lb Malnois can knock a man off his feet
> 
> So I would keep the breed standard and balance in mind. I think one of the reasons Czech dogs have been coming in so nicely and have improved (IMO) the GSDs here is their working ability in real life. Always keep that in mind. Pedigrees are fine but it is the dog, plus the pedigree.
> 
> Here is a question? Other than muscle most of the Czech dogs I have seen have not been particularly large. More compact but very well muscled...


I totally agree with this. I've seen more and more 'little' dogs lately that have the same, if not more power than the big giant dogs. The smaller size is absolutely more practical for the work IMO.


----------



## Lilie

GatorDog said:


> I totally agree with this. I've seen more and more 'little' dogs lately that have the same, if not more power than the big giant dogs. *The smaller size is absolutely more practical for the work* IMO.


And then suddenly 'Miniture Shepherds' hit the market, like it did with the Aussies.


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## GatorDog

Lilie said:


> And then suddenly 'Miniture Shepherds' hit the market, like it did with the Aussies.


Oh Geez, I sure hope not. By smaller I meant like 70lbs vs. 90lb.


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## cliffson1

:hammer:


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## vom Eisenherz

LOL, Cliff. 

70 is not "smaller". That is "normal."


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## GatorDog

vom Eisenherz said:


> LOL, Cliff.
> 
> 70 is not "smaller". That is "normal."


It's the smaller side of the standard. I was speaking in comparison to dogs on the larger side of the standard.


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## Freestep

vom Eisenherz said:


> Freestep, my apologies. I would've thought on an adult, dog-enthusiast forum, specifically a thread dedicated to breeding dogs, that the sight of 2 dogs breeding would be taken more matter-of-factly than it would in a junior high classroom.


I wasn't offended, but we aren't even allowed to swear on this forum because... well... actually I'm not sure why... perhaps because there are kids here? Maybe the mods can address that question. I was just surprised to see a tie photo on this forum. I know the pit bull people are really into posting photos of dogs mating, but it isn't common here. It's just an odd choice of photo to show a size difference, that's all.

The fact that your reply was overly defensive is more telling. In fact, you haven't been here very long and you're already posting a lot of angry, abusive, defensive replies. I'm sure you'll tell me all about ALL those positive private messages you're getting (which, conveniently, no one else can see), but the point is, you're being hostile toward people who had no hostile intent toward you. Why the low threshold?


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## vom Eisenherz

I've done nothing to defend. A quick skim of the thread shows a decent bit of hostility, but I guess we have a serious difference of opinion on what constitutes "abusive" and where the animosity originated from. Insinuating that I am making up the support and welcome I've received via email and pm is awfully telling as well. Cliff is dead on, but I have a week off of work, no child at home right now, and I'm bored. :laugh: Maybe if I can speak up enough that a few others feel comfortable posting their thoughts and experiences, the board will be a bit more tolerant in the future??? It's a thought, anyway...

I doubt it's allowed to post private messages, even anonymously, and I would never throw anyone under the bus, but here is a copy of what it shows when I log in. I'd say that's a few private messages for a short amount of time. 

*Welcome, vom Eisenherz.*
Private Messages: Unread 0, Total 58.
​ 

Hey, if you don't care what your peers think and that they're afraid to post against "mob mentality" as they called it, or "drink the kool-aid", then carry on. I just thought I'd mention it in case you wanted to help people learn.


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## Chris Wild

This thread has become downright absurd and there appears to be no salvaging it back to the original topic despite a couple of attempts. Hopefully the OP was able to glean some important info earlier in the thread.

Thread closed.

-Admin


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