# Breeding philosophy



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Didn't want to hijack another thread but did want to explain my reasoning on New vs Old, in terms of breeding.
First, I am ole school when it comes to German Shepherds. We all have seen the disintergration of the breed into subsets,(ASL, WGSL, WGWL, Czech Line, DDR line, Herding Lines,etc), the lowering of the bar in terms of working service to man, and the mental/physical changes each subset possesses. 
I think this is an abomination, personally. The fault lies at the feet of people who have bred to fulfill their passion of involvement for the breed. The Sch people want more drive, the conformation people want more sidegait, the DDR people want bigger heads, the West showline people want richer colors(Bl and RD), the knpv people want more Mal like behavoir, etc. These elements have become the foundation of the majority of breeders today depending on which type you have. The breed is too popular, there are too many expert breeders that don't know jack, and peoples reasoning for why something is good for the breed is often grounded in what they read on the internet, or some breeder/handler at a showring told them, as opposed to them having experienced the reasoning. To be truly knowledgable usually takes a long time with a lot of repetitions. 
Today people breed German shepherds for type and trophy(ie EGO), and not for a functional working dog. Back in the day you never had long discourse on shoulder layback, color of dog, "grips" , over the top retrieve drive, etc. People didn't LOOK for a German Shepherd asking the breeder " this dog won't show aggression because I don't want that kind of temperament"...Hogwash!!
But, the dogs were consistently better representatives of the breed by far than what we have today. You never saw that worried look, tail pulled up under belly in puppy or grown dog,such insecurity to new situations, hyperactivity to point of driving you crazy,etc. These things were RARE !! Now you see these thing regularly, especially in certain subsets.
So did the new nomeclature guidelines of today prevent this from happening or has it contributed to it happening.??? 
Hips were evaluated by function/longevity in function. Not saying hip X-rays are bad (before some defensive maligned person feels I am saying this), just saying that dogs that demonstrated good functional working hips were not eliminated. 
My point to this post is that I donot subscribe to a lot of the current practices that supposedly bring about perfection to the breed. There is no perfection and the breed isn't healthier, and it goes to people's priorites and knowledge today are "instant". We have fast food German Shepherds, and though they may look and taste good, they aren't good for the breed.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Wow. We see them ALL in rescue too. And it is very sad to have to say no to, or let a dog go, because of crippling temperament or health issues (or keep them and deal with it very carefully







). Thank you for that post.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

Some nice dogs ARE being bred. solid nerves, nice looks, etc. I saw 3 out at the Sheriffs training centre. I got to see a new one being trained, it was awesome. but...I asked where they got their dogs, said all were imported.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Now, I am not a breeder or extremely knowledgable in the genetics, bloodlines, etc., of the breed; I am just a dog owner who loves and owns the breed and who is just starting out learning about dog sports and "this" stuff.

But.. 

I have to say, when looking for a puppy/dog a few years ago, I really didn't understand why there were so many "types" of German Shepherds. It was really confusing to me. What did I want? I wanted it all. I wanted a German Shepherd.

I have to agree with your post cliftonanderson1 because when researching breeders and telling them what I wanted (a German Shepherd who could do it all) I don't think they thought I was being realistic. How could I want all of those things in the same dog? You needed to select a "type" then go from there.. I understand now, but in the begining I was very confused.

I don't think having any willy-nilly person breed helps this either. It just starts to segregate the German Shepherd into different classes or "types" which is not good for the overall breed.

It's called a German Shepherd, they should all fall to the same standard, should they not? Temperament, health, structure, drive, etc., should all be within the same range (varying dog to dog of course - naturally).

Good food for thought. Thank you for posting that.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

Actually, as a person who got hurt with loss of dog who had temperament issue, I really liked your questioning. After I lost kenzo, I'm obsessed with the temperament, especially aggression. Yes people are breeding for their ago, correct ,I agree with that, but also there are people who extremely cautious about temperament. I think as you said, since the breed is so popular, back yard breeders or puppy mills get into action, taking advantage of this breed, causing interbred insane puppies. The result is full of poor dogs in shelters. From my point of view, protective breeds such as gsds, dobermanns, rotties or other large breeds should be banned to be sold in pet stores (No dog should be sold IMO, but that is utopia for now). And yes, even after a correct breeding, some puppies with temperamental issues may happen, but at least the numbers can be decreased for the sake of the dogs dumped or euthanized. I think what is causing the temperament problems we see today is breed's being popular and people who are taking advantage of this. My statement is just a part of problems that you are worried. I talked about temperament cause this is the one who hit me so bad. I'm all ears for other folks comments. Thanks


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Thank you for your post Cliff.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Cliff my first GSD and the one that made me fall in love with the breed was health and temperment wise every thing you wanted a GSD to be, he wasn't the most perfect in conformation but his body served him well for 13 1/2 years without any major work on my part. His dad was a working K9 and his mom was your solid 1970's female who's job it was to protect a business. She lost her life during a break in. I am sure that this breeding was done without hip xrays and a bunch of other stuff. It was done with what each parent had and would bring to the table.

Only one of my current dogs is close to what my first one was temperment wise, it is my male he is darn close but has a host of physical problems allergies and pancreatitis both I believe we passed on from the dam the Pancreatitis I know for sure. But the hip xrays were done.

I believe the GSD got too popular and everyone wanted one but not every should have owned one because IMHO it takes a strong leader to be a good GSD owner. Don't trash me people, but I think there was a lot of watering down because people couldn't handle them. I first GSD as a pup was a wholly terror, it took me a while to get him to understand I wasn't his personal attack toy. Tugs and Balls became his friends. If he had a tug toy I could pick up the tug with the pup attached and move him from room to room without him lossing his grip. From day one he was independent and fearless. 

Val


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Glad you bought up BYB. I usually get bristled up when I see the term BYB, because it lets the "elite" breeders have a stepping stone to allow them to continue what they are doing. This statement is going to cause people righteous indignation, but, Back in the day BYB bred much better dogs than the average dog of today. No question in my mind. Why??? because with their limited resources and sometimes knowledge, they tried to breed their BYD to the best dog available without regard to all those specializations that people put at the head of their breeding list. Today they may not necessarily because they are saddled with the stock of today and they read lists and hear what they ought ta do. Many BYB breeders breed their dogs because they have a good strong dog and they want to replicate it. They usually try to breed to another "good" dog. Now if they come on this list and seek help, instead of help based on what they have...we get the police that question their titles, certifications, health screening, and the more brash ones tell them breeding is for experts,( like them) or in some cases people who have never bred a little are leading the charge on what should be done. Where does your knowledge come from???
Now, I'm not advocating ANY type of breeder, but if a BYB breeder bred their own stock for 10 generations using dogs that were all interrelated to each other over and over we would be all over them for contributing to the surplus population!! Yet elite breeders do the same thing(so genetically the same thing is happening), and because they have a few titles and certs, or because they have CH on the front of the name...they are "responsible breeders!! Well, go ask people who work German Shepherds for a livingwhere are they more likely to get a dog that will stand up to the German Shepherd legacy. Trust me its not from Ch fronted names and many many titled cert dogs. WHY??? 
We are not breeding for the dog instead of ourselves and we need somebody(BYB) to differentiate ourselves from others cause we no longer can go to working practitioners for a working dog to validate our work. 
I know some people get inflamed when I say these things, (you know I don't care), but analyze the reason for the anger, is it because its me who you don't know and I am spewing out garbage,(if that's the case you wouldn't be mad just feel sorry for my ignorance), OR is it because what I write is what people are seeing and experiencing everyday and some ivory towers are being flushed out.?????


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I've learned so much from people like you Cliff. It wasn't until I got involved in Schtuzhund that I understood what a GSD was supposed to be, and how the vast majority of dogs fall short of that standard. 

I've had people tell me that being nervous and skittish is "normal" for a GSD, they are bred that way, to make them good guard dogs.
After a while, the shortcomings of the breed are seen as normal, and stories made up to justify them. It is painful to hear and see these things. 

I was reading a book a couple of years ago set in the 60's? One of the characters, a professional sport personality, got an injury that prevented him from being able to stand or walk for any lenght of time. His borther went to the local shelter and found a GSD to use as a brace/service dog for him. The dog carried out his duties flawlessly, the injured man being a celebrity often attending large social gatherings and functions, the dog just loving his new job and all the attention he was getting. 

I thought to myself that this is very unlikely, that a random dog, and a GSD at that, would have the intelligence and the temperament to just fall into this service dog/socialite role so naturally, as it would be difficult to find a GSD of the right temperament and enough working ethic to fufill these expectations. I thought the author probably had no or little experience with German Shepherds and was romanticizing the "nobility" of the dog. 
But after reading so many of your posts here, and the posts of others, as to what the German Shepherds _were_ like 40 - 50 years ago, I believe that it was a realistic part of the story, and h ow things have changed that 50 years later I'm even doubting if it could have been for real. 

And there was a thread going on just recently about what people's dogs fear - everything from a ringing phone to white plastic grocery bags . . . how very sad to see so many dogs with so many issues . . .


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

Maybe people are expecting a perfect dog and there is no such thing.
I am 48 and have had a GSD in my life nonstop for 43 years. After reading some of these posts on this board I think I did have the perfect GSD and I don't know what line she was. We paid $200 for her in 87, from lady in ME, from her house not a big kennel. Seems to me there are more problems or are people expecting to much. My current dogs an ASL she is young but very well behaved other than car sickness great dog, I never even heard of ASL. Also Bo DDR I never heard of DDR line GSDs, but he is also great he does have dog aggression on leash but that is all I can complain about, very solid calm dog other than that so far. Every time we wanted a GSD we never looked at their pedigree or line we just got one. We looked at the parents. I guess we got lucky but the line and pedigree for a pet home watchdog was fine for us what we got. Now that I have joined this board and learned about the differences I do hope that the GSD breed keeps the old and does not change.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

the first gsd I had when I moved out on my own was Jake. Some would probably call his breeder a BYB, she did OFA her dogs, didn't work them, bred a litter a year and usually kept a female to continue. I paid 350$ for him.

This was in 87, even tho I had grown up with gsd's (my father also grew up with them), I didn't know "much" )) 

Jake was out of Grafental lines, (didn't mean squat to me) and was the soundest dog I've ever had. It was a time when dogs roamed the neighborhood and didn't get in trouble for doing it)) He had a best buddy next door, a collie, and a little mutt down the road. 

All the kids in the neighborhood would play with him after school)
He was a true ambassador of the breed. He went to nursing homes, and anywhere with a big grin on his face. No real health problems, lived until 14. 

It's like Cliff said, very hard to find (if you can) a GSD like that things seem to get to complicated now)

I feel old)))


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## FlyByNight (Feb 16, 2004)

Interesting, because I look at the Border Collie arena and see them just breasting the cusp if this same sort of division. Whereas the traditional shepherd would define the Border Collie as a dog, any dog, regardless of looks, who can herd at a high level all day long in all weather (and often without direct supervision!), there are a lot of folks now coming into the market banking on the notion of "versatility." 

They are breeding Border Collies based on agility titles and obedience titles and therapy dog certs, and for the pet and show market, using the philosophy of "do it all" as an excuse to not so much as -ever- even dabble in actual herding.

A Border Collie on the individual level, of course, is a versatile animal, but it's precisely because of his heritage as a sheep herding critter that he is so flexible. These niche market Border Collies begin to diverge into something different, something not a Border Collie according to traditional philosophy, and more and more of these "sports" and "show" dogs are neurotic, unhealthy, hectic animals. 

As I see this, I wonder if the same follows for the GSD. I wonder if the concept of "versatility" hasn't actually hurt the breed by allowing so many people to attach the breed name to their own personal incarnation of the idea - niche animals for niche markets. 

I might argue that conformation has exacerbated this idea, allowing a whole slew of people to allude to a lot of lines and angles as correlating with supposed performance without ever physically trying their stock, I mean really trying them. Good hips don't matter if the legs don't perform. And fair hips can be fine in an optimally minded and athletic individual. 

Eh. But maybe I'm just irritated that I'm dubious I'll ever one day be able to find a Shepherd with the temperament I want and the body to keep up with days worth of backpacking rugged terrain.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The German Shepherds beat the BCs to this divergence, I believe.

In the past, the fingers of "specialization" breeding were not far reaching. The chances of more consistency were there because there had not been so much divergence from the original. I am thinking that BYBs (whatever that is really) had a greater chance of putting a typical GSD with a typical GSD for this reason.

If my memory serves me (which it seldom does anymore), there was a show on War Dogs of the Pacific. During the war effort, people's pets from the backyard were donated for service. They were family dogs who were donated and could be returned to owners after service. These GSDs stepped up to fill the bill. They returned home many times. One fellow mentioned he had no issues with putting his "war dog" back with the young children because "he was that kind of dog". No specialized production kennels and no specialized early foundation training occured for these dogs. Many of these dogs were Dobermans too. Now, that breed is another story, also.

As I watched this, I was thinking perhaps this situation is what people like Clifton are talking about. It didn't take particularly special owners to handle these dogs. It didn't take specialized breeders to produce them. There was a fairly consistent character and characteristics to the dogs. They were trained to protect, but then also diverted to specialized tasks in the military service. What are the chances of this happening out of the backyards of today.....I am surmising pretty slim.

There simply would not have been the option then of a person seeking a GSD pup and saying "but I don't want one really bred like a GSD....." The dogs themselves would not require super special situations for living either. 

Long ago my aunt, uncle and cousins had a GSD. A locally BYB bred dog so to speak. He was always with us as we played on the farm. That dog would not take prisoners if anyone tried to mess with us. But he was a great family dog. My aunt and uncle not dog experts... but tough farm people, near to the earth, that had an animal handling sense about them. Perhaps indeed those days are gone?

I do lots of things with my dogs. To do well in different venues, I now have to feed several types of GSDs. Strange days.


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## duramax (Dec 7, 2009)

I see it in the breeding of AQHA (quarter horses). There is division even within the divisions ie; racing, halter, cutting, reining, western pleasure, to name some. Now there is a trend to use what is termed a "versitilty show" , what people are doing trying to put the breed back to what they believe is what the breed was originally bred for. They are forgetting what it was intended for, which was quarter mile racing. What really is forgotten is the fact that, what they were used for was working ranches, ranches that used and bred horses for every day use, then for fun and entertaiment on weekends, ie;racing, halter, cutting and so on. What I believe, is what is happening within the GSD breed also, division among divisions. We can take a whole room full of GSD breeders from say, the WGWL. How many in that room would agree on what the breed should or shouldn't be? I'm sure the room would be divided. In reality what is happening is, the human factor is getting in the way, ie; opinions, egos, money. Who's right and who's wrong? Probably in reality, no one person or group of people is right or wrong. When any human uses their influence to state what they think is correct for the breed, that is exactly what it is, an opinion. But it is all subjective, what we each perceive to be the best. I am looking at this from an outsiders perspective, I don't breed dogs, I don't ever plan on breeding dogs. But as a long time breeder of horses, I see the almost exact thing happening in what we do. Even though we have the ability to reason, we could agree to disagree. I would venture to say, we couldn't agree on that.


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## VALIUM (Nov 15, 2007)

As a person who is learning this breed (being just a newbie), Thank you again for this thread. BYB back in days, as you said, were people who knew their dogs and doing this for the sake or love of the breed. But today, people (most of them or the ones I encountered with) are doing it just for money without having a clue as to what they bred for. I was asked many times in Petco, while I was shopping , if it is ok for me to use my dog as a stud dog. I explained that my dog has weak nerves and offsprings will not make good dogs. They said ''no problem, you can choose the pup you want'' How does that sound?. BYD back in days weren't these people Cliff. I definitely understand you. I wish the breed was back to those days.


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1......Back in the day BYB bred much better dogs than the average dog of today. No question in my mind. Why??? because with their limited resources and sometimes knowledge, they tried to breed their BYD to the best dog available without regard to all those specializations that people put at the head of their breeding list. Today they may not necessarily because they are saddled with the stock of today and they read lists and hear what they ought ta do. Many BYB breeders breed their dogs because they have a good strong dog and they want to replicate it. They usually try to breed to another "good" dog. Now if they come on this list and seek help, instead of help based on what they have...we get the police that question their titles, certifications, health screening, and the more brash ones tell them breeding is for experts,( like them) or in some cases people who have never bred a little are leading the charge on what should be done. Where does your knowledge come from???
> Now, I'm not advocating ANY type of breeder, but if a BYB breeder bred their own stock for 10 generations using dogs that were all interrelated to each other over and over we would be all over them for contributing to the surplus population!! Yet elite breeders do the same thing(so genetically the same thing is happening), and because they have a few titles and certs, or because they have CH on the front of the name...they are "responsible breeders!! Well, go ask people who work German Shepherds for a livingwhere are they more likely to get a dog that will stand up to the German Shepherd legacy. Trust me its not from Ch fronted names and many many titled cert dogs. WHY???
> We are not breeding for the dog instead of ourselves and we need somebody(BYB) to differentiate ourselves from others cause we no longer can go to working practitioners for a working dog to validate our work.
> I know some people get inflamed when I say these things, (you know I don't care), but analyze the reason for the anger, is it because its me who you don't know and I am spewing out garbage,(if that's the case you wouldn't be mad just feel sorry for my ignorance), OR is it because what I write is what people are seeing and experiencing everyday and some ivory towers are being flushed out.?????


I think what you are referring to as a BYB back then probably did mean someone would breed their good dog to another good dog - yes even without any testing. But there was still a lot of dogs of all types being bred by those that didn't desex their dogs and either drowned the offspring or gave them away or the dog went missing at the same time as the pups.

I think also, that back then, dogs were treated dfferently to the way they are now. Most dogs were not house dogs and many roamed. If the dog was sick or aggressive in any way, it was either isolated from interaction or putdown and probably not by a vet. Dogs were also not treated as a member of the family, they were the bottom of importance so they had no illusion of their place in the household (pack) so many of the aggression/dominance issues did not arise.

Those that had dogs as working dogs did not keep a dog that would not work or behave as it should - sentimentality as to the dogs worth was not of as much importance as it is today. So, yes, good dogs got bred to good dogs because the other type were not wanted. 

But it is a different world now and the role of the dog in many peoples lives have changed. The BYB of today is cashing in on the desires of a market that is often uninformed and more likely to see a dog in a different, more sentimental light and where price (either low or high end) can be seen as either as a measure of worth or as a good deal. That has also helped increase the incidence of weaker temperaments and other health issues from many sources at both ends of the market. 

What was a reputable BYB then, is now probably better classified as a hobby breeder. These breeders now have access to a greater pool of information of which they would be unwise to ignore, simply because of the prevalence of the offspring from unscrupulous breeders. But that pool of information also should include the advice of Clifton Anderson. 

But I must add that many of the people who come to the forum seeking advice on breeding their animals really should not be doing so - based on their lack of knowledge in many areas. The reception given sometimes does verge on an attack but maybe that is, if not justified, based on not wanting to further add to the perpetuation of the already occuring problems. Admittedly, those people will still breed and sell the resulting offspring anyway and the trend will continue. Peace


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Alison, just curious? When you speak of conditions and living arrangements for dogs back in the day are you speaking from what you saw and experienced or are you speaking from what you think. Just curious, because people can see things from same time period but different perspective and I know my small sphere of the world then didn't represent everything.
The problem I have with your rationalization of BYB of past equal Hobby breeders of today is you seem to be missing the point that people bred dogs to maintain what the dog was created for, as opposed to their personal likes of what they think the dog should be. Hobby breeders of today are notorious for breeding the ("specialization priority") dogs depending on what subset they belong to. So I don't see the average hobby breeders as the improvement in the breed with the current mindset on what is important to their breeding program.
I will start another topic in the breeding section where I will give some insight on the Army Bio- Sensor program of the sixties and early seventies. This was a scientific based breeding program by the Army conducted at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. These dogs had the highest degree of health testing available at that time. I was not only exposed to these dogs daily for three years, five days a week, but also trained them, in both infantry and law Enforcement capacity. You see many of my opinions are based on more than just reading and living...but I saw specialization first hand forty years ago.
Cliff


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Cliff,

I'm from Australia and I'm 51yo and our experience will vary greatly. I do admire you and your philosophy but I do see a different side to what you have posted - it may be totally foreign to your knowledge.

I guess I'm speaking from knowing "farmer" mentality via my family history and friends in the herding field and relating to kelpies, BCs and any other working dogs they had (gsd-collie mix included) - any dog was considered a worker just like another human employee, it they did not perform they were out. 

My immediate family always had dogs and they were not desexed but were monitored and not bred - the dogs were allowed restricted house access but as a priviledge not a given. Our dogs when I was growing up were allowed on the inside step and no further, we had a double storey house and the laundry was downstairs and that is where the dogs slept.

My uncle had two collie kelpie crosses and the bitch was constantly in pup but both were excellent working dogs and each pup was eagerly awaited. 

My fathers father (died before I was born so can't calll him a GF) bred white GSDs and they were weak nerved and all ended up being PTS for agression and this was back in the 1930's to 1940's.

And no, I'm not missing your point at all - I agree with you except for the term. A BYB in the old days is not the puppy mill of today but many BYB's today are puppy mills.

I don't disagree with you at all but I also do not want to encourage people with no knowledge to breed because they are perpetuating the problem.

I have read your strategy regarding your breeding program and if you had not researched your dogs, you would not be breeding the dogs you are - instead you would talking to your neighbours and seeing who had a good dog and arranging a meet up. That you are not doing that is the difference btwn a BYB and a considered breeder.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Alison, Thanks for the kind words...I think...smile!
If you have read my posts for years, I have always said that the key to breeding good German Shepherds is knowledge. Knowledge of history, knowledge of lines, knowledge of stock used and the vigilance to maintain the dog as a working dog. Always have said that, never deviated and don't believe in shortcuts. That's why it takes more than titles and certs to breed dog. The German Shepherd showline is the largest subset of German shepherds in the world. They also know the most about the history of the breed. They also have built in titles and Certs as requisites for the breed. Yet, this subset has steadily been declining in statue and ability to produce acceptable dogs for work. So I think it comes down to resources and committment. Resources being the knowledge of lines, history, and breeding stock used, and committment to the ideals of the breed being a uyility working dog first and foremost. Again, JMO, may well seem hogwash to many but its mine and I am sticking to it...smile!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Cliff, but when people like yourself write about their experiences, their philosophies, and help to answer people's question, is that not because you want to share your love and knowledge of the dogs that have been such a big part of your life? Then should the insight and understanding that we gain from reading what people write not count as valid, because it isn't first-hand?


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## darylehret (Mar 19, 2006)

Another great subject, Cliff. Thanks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Darryl, 
In general we see the breed from the same perspective, that's why I always value your opinion. It is well thought out and based usually on empirical data.


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