# My dog bit my friends father! HELPPP



## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't know what to do now, I love her to death but i cant have a dog that will randomly attack people.

Zoey's quick background:
2 year old female Belgium Malinois/shepard mix.
Have had her for 1 month and a week.
Owner surrender. 

scene of events:
We went on a mini weekend vacation up to Maine at my friends cottage.
Arrived around 11 last night, she met his father and his uncle this morning at about 7AM and they were fine.
They were fine up until 11AM where we were moving some wood. He walks by with a stick in his hand and waves it in front of her head and walks away.
She goes after him barking growling snarling you name it. This was no play date, she wanted to put him down.
Bit him in the leg and broke the skin. 


Heres my adoption thread and everything i know about her. This wasn't known.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...rmation-general/180424-possible-adoption.html



Not sure where to go from here but i contact the rescue group i got her from and awaiting a reply. Any inputs?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok, I'm not excusing what Zoey did in anyway.

But, look at it from her point of view, a man waves a stick in front of her head? That can be perceived as a threatening gesture to a dog especially from a person she doesn't really know very well.

Do you know her background? As in, maybe someone whacked her with a stick before?? 

I know your friends dad probably meant absolutely no harm by what he did, but Zoey obviously didn't, and took it as a threat..

After all was said and done, and some time had passed, how was she with your friends Dad??


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I really don't think you should jump to rehoming her  You JUST got this dog... what kind of training/socialization have you put into her? What kind of rules have you set down, schedule, routine, etc etc etc. 

The bite may have been bad, however, you did place a 'new to you' dog in a situation where you could not possibly know how she would react... you never gave her enough time to 'get to know each other' and thus be capable of heading off inappropriate behavior on her part. 

Who knows what her past was like... perhaps she was uncomfortable the entire time and her discomfort just went unnoticed. She could have been in a heightened state of awareness or alertness.. she was in a new environment with new people!

German Shepherds are not your happy go lucky love everyone lab... but heck, that's why most of us love them. They come with a lot of responsibility and it takes training, respect, and understanding to own and care for them. 

I really think you should put a bit more time and effort into working with and training her (in a class setting or privately with a good trainer) before you just write her off


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

First I want to throw out there that re-homing her is the *last* option in my mind. I love this dog with all my heart, she really is an awesome dog. All of my friends LOVE her and she's never had an issue with anyone. I don't know her history but it does seem like she was abused at some point.

Now that I think about it, she also flipped out and went after my vet (older male) so it seems that she gets very iffy around those types of people. We left immediately after the bite so I don't know how they would've been, although right after, she seemed fine. I look back and I wish i never brought her, but i specifically told the rescue group i wanted a dog that i could take anywhere, where as Zoey, i don't think i can take her anywhere.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

when you rescue you really don't know exactly what you're going to get until you've had the dog for quite a bit longer than this girl has been with you. especially if you're wanting to expose her to new and/or unusual (to her) situations or people, i.e., taking her anywhere.

and totally what e.rigby said.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes it takes more than a month for an adult dog to settle into its new family, new surroundings, etc. In my opinion, you took the dog too soon, into a situation where the dog was in a new surrounding with new people for quite a while. And then the guy comes after her with a stick. Well, I think I would have bit him too. Why would he wave a stick at her head and then turn and start walking off? That is bazaar behavior. 

At the same time, you now know your dog will bite. Oh, any dog will bite. But some dog's threshold is on one end of a continuum and others are at the other end. Some need to be in serious pain or very scared. Others do not need much of an excuse. 

Get her into training. Do not keep her away from friends, and definitely take her places, but you need to be proactive and head her off at the pass so to speak. If children run up to her, you need to step in front and tell them to STOP. Until you know this dog a whole lot better, you are going to need to be very, very careful with her.

But please don't give up on her.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think you will be able to think a little more clearly once you talk to the rescue. I hope - I would wait and see what they have to say. 

It may not even be abuse, it may be some training she had in the past...never know. I limit opportunities by tethering a dog to me for as long as it takes to see them in many situations and with a variety of buttons pushed (for some dogs, it doesn't take much, other dogs buttons are few and far between). 

Let's hope they can give you some good info.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

What does the rescue you got the dog from say? What training have you been doing with her since she came to you? Have you contacted the trainer the rescue called in to evaluate this dog's possible dog aggression before you adopted her? 
Sheilah


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Well, you just learned a valuable, if very unfortunate, lesson about your dog. I've been in your shoes and it is very scary to know that your dog can and will bite. All dogs are capable of biting and it seems like not a day goes by without a new thread on a dog that has bitten someone. Many of these dogs were raised by the people from pup and something about a particular situation seems to set them off. Others are new rescues or rehomes whose history isn't known. 

I do think the stick over the head thing would be a trigger for a lot of dogs and I also think a trip to a strange place with strange people is another stressor. 

What's next is for you to get yourselves into classes with a really good trainer and to learn how to read and manage your dog. Basu was a biter but I learned how to effectively manage him and also how to read him so that he only bit once. I felt it was my job to protect him from that happening again. That one time was a big wake-up call for me (took me totally by surprise) but he lived with me and travelled with me for 6 more years after that. I was just extra cautious about handling him.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would give the dog more time. It's just one of those things that you couldn't have known. Honestly I wouldn't spend a ton of time prodding the rescue about this. They can't possibly test every scenario. Maybe they knew something but if they are a legit rescue, probably not otherwise they would have told you or not adopted the dog out yet. But now that you know she reacts this way, just keep her in sight and on leash when she's in a new environment, until you have some more training and bonding time (1 month is so very little time).


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I remember the earlier thread about your dog. At the time there was a question about dog aggression. There had been no training done by the previous owner. The suspected reason for the surrender was because the previous owner did not expect this to be such a high energy dog.

While this wasn't a fight, a reaction as strong as this was can lead up to further reactions. You now know she will bite, so take every precaution, especially when men are present, to prevent another bite. Keep her home, contained and managed for the next few weeks, while you and she get to know each other and a bond builds. 

Meanwhile, if you haven't started yet, begin researching trainers in your area. Be sure they are experienced with the high energy breeds such as GSD and Mals. 

With this bite being to the leg, I'm wondering if this was more fear based. Perhaps the previous owner did something similar?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Either decide to commit 100% to working with her issues or tell the rescue you'll foster her until they can find another home, and take a different dog. I've been through the same thing with a dog I was fostering. I had her for over a month, trained her, socialized her, and in the end, she growled at several men and bit one. By then I was also attached, but realized it wasn't the kind of dog I could have in my home. I was able to give her back to the rescue with detailed instructions on the type of home I thought she should have, and they found her just that home--more sedentary than I was, less social, out in a rural area where she wouldn't have to deal with a lot of strangers. She's doing very well with them. 

You are getting good advice on how to work with her if you can and want to do that. Don't let us talk you into keeping her if you have serious reservations about whether or not you can be the one who can change her behaviors. Only you can make that decision. I read both your threads on this dog, and it sounds like even though you are attached to her, she's not the dog you wanted. You're going to have this dog for at least 12 more years. You want a dog you can take everywhere. She's not it. In my experience, only a very experienced handler can deal with this type of aggression. She's gone after your older male vet, she's gone after your friend's father. Are you willing to own a dog that may never be comfortable with men? Are you willing to work with her for a year or more, and then decide she's not going to change enough to want to keep her? Will the rescue group take her back if you do that and still can't make the changes you need? 

If you talk to the rescue group and decide you are definitely going to try to keep her, then I suggest you find a good behaviorist to work with. You can do this on your own, but you are going to have to be dedicated to socializing her slowly, carefully, and often. Even then, she may always be unpredictable around men. I know this from experience. Also, a Malinois is not a GSD. They have different personalities and energy levels. So, don't assume you have another GSD, you don't. She may be more Malinois in temperament and personality than GSD.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I guess that I seem to have a slightly different interpretation than most posters on this dog. Of course I am also assuming that the guy just waved a stick at the dog and didn't actual wave it AT the dog, i.e. threaten the dog with the stick. That would of couse be a very different situation.

I am also assuming that the dog met the guy they bit earlier and was ok with him.

If my assumptions are true (BIG assumption!) - then the dog has a large problem, in my opinion.

Was the bite in the back of the leg? I assume further it was, since the OP said the person was walking away, right? If the dog had a normal gsd temperament, solid nerves and no fear but perhaps a low threshhold for defense, then I would have expected the bite to come AS the stick was waved over the dog - not as the waver was walking away.

If so, it certainly sounds like a bad case of FA. Tough one to cure/treat, I think!

I would recommend that the OP get to a GOOD behaviorist immediately and have the dog evaluated - whether or not they keep the dog. And of course contact the rescue immediately (as others have already mentioned!) - sounds like maybe somebody missed something in the initial evaluation, perhaps???????

Good luck with him - a very tough situation!!!!!!!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

What happened at the vet's office? There's some valuable info, as far as how she reacts to certain people.

How did you react after the bite? Immediately as it happened? Not that I want to criticise you, just to get a feel for the situation.

Swinging a stick at a dog is a dumb thing to do, and I'm not saying the bite was a 'normal' reaction, as it shouldn't have happened, but you just don't do things that might provoke a dog. Period. The good news is that I doubt he'll ever do that again, maybe saving himself from something much worse.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> At the same time, you now know your dog will bite. Oh, any dog will bite. But some dog's threshold is on one end of a continuum and others are at the other end. Some need to be in serious pain or very scared. Others do not need much of an excuse.


Yep. Her bite threshold is much lower than we would anticipate our pet dogs' to be.



> If so, it certainly sounds like a bad case of FA. Tough one to cure/treat, I think!


It does sound like fear aggression. We don't like to work with actual biting fear aggressors here (in our rescue). 
Sometimes all you can do with a dog like this is manage it. And this may be this particular dog's fate.

Main thing is - do not set her up to fail again. You knew when you went to the vet apparently, that she'd "go after" men, so this dog should have been, at the very least, leashed to you so it wouldn't "go after" anyone again.
In social situations, remove her completely. Don't try to integrate her, 'work on it' with her, or any other such thing, but do get an evaluation of her temperament from an experience trainer, particularly in fear aggression.

I'd lean towards not treating it at all and managing her, because the risk of getting a bad trainer on board and making her worse is so high.

That said, if you post your area, and perhaps with the help of your rescue, some folks may have a reputable trainer in mind.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

The rescue didn't really have much to say, they were in shock just as much as i was. Like i said, Zoey is an absolute sweetheart with everyone. It just seems like some men she doesnt take kindly to. They said that they support anything i choose to do whether keep Zoey or give her back or foster her until they find her a more suitable home.

Incident at the vet. Like i said she was completely fine, he was petting her, rubbing her you name it. Right when he sat down to talk to me and took his attention off of her, she freaked out. Just like up in Maine, she was fine with him and his uncle.

My reaction after the bite was normal i would say. I simply yanked her back (it was a cable line and my hands kept slipping) and put her on her normal leash. After that she was fine with everything.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

This is a pretty scary situation, when the dog just goes off without any warning, like with your vet. I'm not qualified to give any advice, but I can give you my sympathy. I know you love her.

I agree that you need an evaluation. I was reading through your old post, and I just want to add: do NOT involve your neighbor in this. Get some references if you can, someone who knows GSDs. Anyone can call themselves a trainer, and it takes a big person to admit when a problem is too much for them. Not very many people can do this, so you have to protect your dog from them.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

The dog might have a ring sport backround and the stick waving sent her into drive.


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## Pandora (Feb 29, 2012)

Zoey is two and only been with you a little over a month. From her reactions it is obvious she has been subjected to some abuse. 
I rescued a tiny puppy over 19 years ago. It was apparent from her utter terror that she had been horribly mistreated. I have never ever been unkind or rough with this dog, but she still quakes a bit when anyone approaches her. In all these years of love and kindness, she has never forgotten the first 2 months of her life.
Your mistake was getting Zoey around people who are not dog-savvy, who do not realize that a rescued dog must be treated with great care and respect. She needs a lot more time and experience. She may end up being the most loyal and devoted canine companion imaginable.
I trust she is spayed.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GregK said:


> The dog might have a ring sport backround and the stick waving sent her into drive.


 
But would such a trained dog wait till the stick holder turned and walked away? Very , very doubtful!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Many fearful dogs were simply not exposed to many things when they were young. 
The first 16 weeks of life are critical to get them out and get them used to things other than their mom and siblings, or you can wind up with an undersocialized, fearful dog.
It's no necessarily abuse - they just didn't get exposed to new and different things.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

codmaster said:


> But would such a trained dog wait till the stick holder turned and walked away? Very , very doubtful!


Maybe. Could be why he ended up in rescue - not protection sport material.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Not likely - unless I missed it when the OP said something about the training that the dog had in it's past life.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

How many past lives do dogs have? I know with cats it's 9.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

There is no known past history of any sort of training with Zoey. Everything she knows, I taught her. When waving a stick over her head, she gets real low, squints her eyes like shes about to get smacked. If i raise my voice she will get submissive and roll on her back. I have been working with her and i am certain that she would never bite or do harm to any of my family or friends. I can't be certain with strangers though.

I don't know how this dog was brought up or socialized. I am very attached to her already as is my girlfriend. She started to cry at the thought of giving Zoey back up as did I. I just dont know what to do.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

You have to give her more than just over a month to adjust. Nobody has the 'perfect dog' in this short amount of time. Even with puppies, you have to wait for them to mature. Please give her more time.

She's displaying some pretty bad behavior, and despite how sweet she acts around you, your family and friends - you just can't know that she won't bite. She's already proven that she WILL bite. 

Have you had any luck finding a good trainer in your area?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You do have Tuft's nearby as a resource. They have a pretty big behavioral clinic from what I understand - I do not know what exactly they do, but they certainly are an option. About Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic : Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine Dr. Dodman is there and they also have a PetFax service for consultations. 

Like someone said, please do not use your neighbor. 

I would not be certain she would never bite or do harm to any family or friends at this stage yet. 

You now know though that you will need to be attached to her at all times when you are out - so that you can shape her behaviors and so that you can set her up to succeed. 

That's what I would be focusing in on right now until you get a good handle on things - managing and containing so that she does not do this again, regardless of why it happened from her, it happened because a dog is like a liquid and they will expand to the size of their container - she was allowed to be a cup, she needs to be a teaspoon for a while. A loving one, but that kind of leadership will help her to see she doesn't need to help herself.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I can sympathize with your situation. It is very difficult to decide what to do when you are 'in the moment' so to speak. You have a dog that you clearly have become attached to and need to figure out a course of action. 

Please get her evaluated and into training. 

I adopted a female when she was 16 months old and she will be 5 in December. I was never told anything about her life before me, and the first few months were a nightmare. I seriously considered sending her back but did not want to be yet another human that failed her. So I dug my heels in and worked with her. She is the kind of dog that has to be managed. She will never overcome some of her quirks.

I often say she is neurotic. She is hyper-always wound up, always pacing, always anxious. She values her toys more than food, but just barely. She is a very strong dog too. 

I have learned that if given the chance with a stranger she will nip them. I cannot trust her with strangers and cannot let my guard down in that regard. But training definitely enabled us to form a bond. She is not a Bad dog, she is a special dog.

Even with all of that, she still gets to go places and do things. We go to the river, for walks in the park, to Dock Diving events. There is one particular park where I can let her run loose. Her recall is awesome and her OB is good. I just have to manage her around strangers for safety.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm going to talk to the rescue again. I love this dog, but after only a month of ownership, i'm approaching the $2,000 spent mark already. Trainers, behavioral experts etc etc seem pretty expensive.... I know money shouldn't be an option but i want to give her the BEST possible training an I don't know if i can afford it. Trying to save up for my own house, i see myself dip into my savings already to take care of all the extra expenses for Zoey. I just don't know.....

Then again, I don't want her to be given up by her third family, i can only imagine what that would do to her.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Do you think her original foster family will take her back into their home?
What did the rescue have to say about this? She might be happier and better off living a nice quite life with a single woman somewhere. Keeping her because you feel sorry for her won't make things better.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I've been talking to the foster family directly during all of this and during the past month, I've been updating her on Zoey's status with pictures and what not. The foster loves her and was completely shocked that she did this. She gave me 3 options. 1) I keep her and work through this. 2)I give her back. 3) I foster her until she finds a proper home for her.
I get upset at even the thought of giving her back but i want to do whats best for Zoey.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My impression, based on what was posted, is that this dog was overloaded. New home, new people, new dogs, all in one month. I am not trying to excuse a bite, but this happens with a dog that may have been handled harshly and may have a low bite threshold. There is a good reason for a two-week shutdown. The dog has time to regroup and bond with the new family. After that gradual expsure is recommended, one stressor at a time. Life with a new dog is a marathon, not a sprint. getting to know the dog's responses, likes and dislikes, over time, it is fun. People who had the perfect dog in the past are sometimes determined to immediately push a new dog into all the activities and people and dog interactions they had with their previous dog. Sometimes it works and often it does not. 

I feel that dogs do best with a lot of one on one interactions with their new owner. That may mean the new owner stepping back from social activities for a while, to allow time for a bond and trust to form. With a better bond, the owner can better read the body language and the dog develops more trust in the owner. 

My sense is that this dog may have been treated harshly, went through shelter, foster home, countless evaluations and a new home in a short period of time. It does not sound like she was given the quiet time to de-stress. She is full of stress hormones, and it is not that surprising what happened. An intelligent person should not have waved a stick in the face of a dog with an unknown past and she should not have responded the way she did.

It sounds like she is a good, loving dog with limitations that require management. It is not hard to use a muzzle when she is among strangers. There are training places in some locations that offer lifetime training for $1500. I am not sure what the $2000 expenses were, did she have any health issues.

My impression is that she has huge shoes to fill and she may or may not be able to do so.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Nickyb said:


> I'm going to talk to the rescue again. I love this dog, but after only a month of ownership, i'm approaching the $2,000 spent mark already. Trainers, behavioral experts etc etc seem pretty expensive.... I know money shouldn't be an option but i want to give her the BEST possible training an I don't know if i can afford it. Trying to save up for my own house, i see myself dip into my savings already to take care of all the extra expenses for Zoey. I just don't know.....
> 
> Then again, I don't want her to be given up by her third family, i can only imagine what that would do to her.


Did you do a "two week shut down" when you got her? Can you describe how your day-to-day interactions with her are?
Like...where does she sleep? Eat? Treats, toys? Not every detail but how you handle her sleeping/eating/treats, etc.? You don't even have to type them up here - but think about it as you read the rest of my post.

Does she have free rein throughout the house? 

If so - how would you integrate these - do you think you do some of these things already? If not, can you start?

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Now - as to social situations. Manage. Keep leashed to you on a sturdy leash if it's integral she be with you, if it's not necessary to have her with you, avoid it. Crate her, leave her in a room, etc.
Keep her safe.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

It was stated that i didn't need a full two week shutdown on this forum but i did do a mini shutdown (roughly a week) of nothing new or exciting.

The first week she only slept in her crate an has her own 10x10 room in my house. She was crated during the night and only had roam of the 10x10 room during this time. 

Our current day-to-day interactions.
-She sleeps at the foot of my bed every night, sometimes i'll get lucky and shell be game for some spoonage but usually just likes to lay down the side of my leg.
-She eat's directly to the left of my desk in the morning after our walk and in the evening after our second walk. I can take the bowl of food away at any time, she is not possessive of her food at all. in fact, she does something weird. She takes mouth-fulls of her food and walks away and eats it, then comes back for another mouth-full and does the same. 
-Our toys consist of a tug rope, tennis balls and a jolly ball. She's had some stuffed animals but chooses to destroy them. She'll tug on the ball and tug on her jolly ball but usually i will win. 
-Treats... well she gets them when shes a good girl and is calm, usually after doing a few tricks for daddy. 

Our schedule is pretty much set in stone except for the weekends where we both sleep in a bit.

6:30- wake up and go for a 2 mile walk
7- I feed her then take a shower so she digest's her food before we play a bit
7:20 i eat breakfast usually outside while she sniffs, poops and pee's
7:30 we play fetch for about 20 mins to drain her energy a bit, after all, she is part mali
7:50 I brush my teeth and give her a kong filled with frozen tuna/ broken up denta stick, confining her to her 10x10 room.
8 - i leave for work
Depending on the day, my mother usually comes and lets her out and hangs out with her at some point during the day, if not than around 3pm
5:30- Arrive from work and go for another 2mile walk.
6pm I make dinner and feed Zoey
6:30- i put my stuff away from work and prepare lunch and her kong for the next day. This is when she gets free reign of the house but usually stay by my side, inspecting what i'm doing.
7PM- Go outside and toss the ball around for a bit, work on tricks and commands, and then run her more while tossing the ball around.
8pm we settle down for the night, well play from now until 10pm and maybe a raw hide or bully stick while i play a video game, watch a movie or finish up with some work while she lays right by my side or in her crate if I'm on the computer.
10:30 bed time
Repeat.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> another 2mile walk.


Walking is good but can you run her? I'm sure she needs more exercise than a walk can provide, larger dogs can stroll along at their pace and not even get tired.

Your routine sounds fine - for some reason I thought you had another dog but now I see you don't, I apologize.

I think you're basically looking at a fearful dog who is really not comfortable around other people, and you'll have to manage her. 
It can be done, no reason to give her up. 
But be realistic too. If you want her to be around people and this is a strong desire of yours, you may not be the right home for her.

But then again, if she goes back to rescue, will they find a home suitable for her? 

Some people want their dogs to be very social because they are. If this is you, it's not a good match.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My concern was that you posted she already met all your friends, you also were looking for a trainer to work on playing with other dogs and you took her to a cottage with strangers, all within a month. I am concerned that she did not have much time to relax, while meeting Many new people, places and dogs. It can be too much. When my dogs were 2 years old, I did 45 minutes of fetching with them with two balls twice a day. A dog is tired when the tongue hangs to the side down to the ground. Getting them tired from exercise helps agains stress.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

We usually go for a job and shes pretty tired after that. I have so many people telling me to keep her and work with her or give her back because shes not suitable and you just never know with her. this sucks


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Nickyb said:


> We usually go for a job and shes pretty tired after that. I have so many people telling me to keep her and work with her or give her back because shes not suitable and you just never know with her. this sucks


we usually go for a jog/run**** not a job lol sorry about that.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Twyla said:


> With this bite being to the leg, I'm wondering if this was more fear based. Perhaps the previous owner did something similar?


Wave a stick over the head and the dog bites the leg, and its a Mal? Sounds to me like someone attempted some really crappy ringsport training and taught the dog people with sticks are to be bitten in the leg! 

Having seen (and still seeing and undoing) the after effects of a "Dog's gotta learn to come through the stick" F-grade helper work on multiple dogs, this sounds exactly like about 3 dogs I know.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

hunterisgreat said:


> Wave a stick over the head and the dog bites the leg, and its a Mal? Sounds to me like someone attempted some really crappy ringsport training and taught the dog people with sticks are to be bitten in the leg!
> 
> Having seen (and still seeing and undoing) the after effects of a "Dog's gotta learn to come through the stick" F-grade helper work on multiple dogs, this sounds exactly like about 3 dogs I know.


Exactly! If only she could talk and tell us the whole story.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

In a *controlled* back-tied situation, you could have someone replicate the stick over the head and judge the reaction. Then you'd have a really good idea.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GregK said:


> Exactly! If only she could talk and tell us the whole story.


I wish all dogs could. Why is this one afraid, that one not, or only afraid of people in hats, etc.
Basically - it doesn't matter. What matters is now. You've got this dog and it's got X issue and no matter what happened in the past, you have to deal with _now._ 
I'd say it's a fairly safe bet this dog simply felt threatened, and after the guy turned to walk away, she worked up the nerve to go for a bite. 
That's a classic fear response-- don't go for the front or face, too scared for that. 
A bite from behind is when the dog says "woah wait a minute, the **** you say!" and gets brave enough to bite.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't wish dogs could talk. I think that forcing us to communicate with them by looks and simple gestures makes us more in tune. Could you just imagine what my lot would sound like:

Sue, she nipped me
She started it
Did Not!
Yes you did
Can you two just shut up already, I'm trying to sleep!
Shut up yourself!
Can we have chicken tonight?
Yeah, Chicken
Bring Chicken home!
Don't forget the oranges.
You lot are waking the puppies!
Chicken, chicken we want chicken!
Hey that guy next door was shooting again today
Ewwww, Gretta has the runs again!
Better hurry up before she rolls in it. 
She won't roll in it, she will run through it and splatter it all into my kennel.
Hey, while you have that hose out, could you wet me down?
OUCH! She nipped me AGAIN!


I think I like the quiet looks, and gestures and the occasional whines, and the 2:30AM barking, and the howling at the trains. But no, I don't wish they could talk.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I wish all dogs could. Why is this one afraid, that one not, or only afraid of people in hats, etc.
> Basically - it doesn't matter. What matters is now. You've got this dog and it's got X issue and no matter what happened in the past, you have to deal with _now._
> I'd say it's a fairly safe bet this dog simply felt threatened, and after the guy turned to walk away, she worked up the nerve to go for a bite.
> That's a classic fear response-- don't go for the front or face, too scared for that.
> A bite from behind is when the dog says "woah wait a minute, the **** you say!" and gets brave enough to bite.


Flip side, it could even just be conditioning... the stick could have triggered "oh wait, we're doing bitework again? Sweet.. brb, I bite now"


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

selzer said:


> I don't wish dogs could talk. I think that forcing us to communicate with them by looks and simple gestures makes us more in tune. Could you just imagine what my lot would sound like:
> 
> Sue, she nipped me
> She started it
> ...


This was too funny...thanks for the laugh...:laugh:


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

If I understood it right, your dog was tied on a cable when the man approached her and waved the stick. When he turned, she bit out of fear. When you put her on the leash, she was fine. At the vet, she seemed to be fine, but really wasn't while the vet was petting her - she probably was just barely tolerating it, so when he stopped and focused on you - she had the opportunity to bite. Given her background - under stress - all the changes , those 2 incidents are understandable. You are giving her much needed exercise, training and attention. For tug, let her win after a struggle. Praise her for being the winner. That won't make her agresssive but will help to build up her confidence. Since you don't know what to do and keep going back and forth which I can sympathize with, it might be better if you took a month just to get to know your dog - no decision about should I keep her/should I return her. Just take it day by day. You could keep a journal, and at the end of the month use that to help you make your decision. And except for regular dog expenses (food, medical care, toys), also don't make any large dog related expenditures during this month. Hopefully that will take the pressure off of you and your dog will start to adjust, because she is sensing this tension and that certainly isn't helping her adjustment.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

hunterisgreat said:


> Flip side, it could even just be conditioning... the stick could have triggered "oh wait, we're doing bitework again? Sweet.. brb, I bite now"


Yeah. Because they taught her to bite the "bad guy" while he was walking away...??
This is a fearful dog with an uncertain history. She went after the vet, too, remember? What kind of training involves attacking veterinarians?
Glad you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think it's safe for the OP to do so. Either way it broke skin and she needs to be kept safe/away from people while he figures this out.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

> That's a classic fear response-- don't go for the front or face, too scared for that.
> A bite from behind is when the dog says "woah wait a minute, the **** you say!" and gets brave enough to bite.


Yep!! That's what my dog does. She waits till no one is looking, till they have their back turned, till they are not paying attention, then goes for it. 

The good news is, it can be managed


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's right...a brave dog would bite from the front, not wait until the victim's back is turned. The threat is gone when the victim's back is turned, for gosh sake. If a dog was truly responding to a 'challenge' or whatever, they'd meet it face on. 
A dog is not 'protecting' when it bites from behind.
One of my first 'almost got bit' incidences on the job was a Pug who had no water on a hot day, some called to report. 

I stopped to view the situation, he was chained in the front yard, but had shade, so I wasn't too concerned. The Pug was torqued that I was on "his" property, and barked quite a bit. 
The owner wasn't home, left a note on the door to give the dog water and turned to walk away. I heard the chain rattling, and turned around in time to see him coming at my pant leg. I just hollered at him, and he stopped and turned tail to run back to 'his spot'. 

I learned to be as careful how you leave a property as well as how you approach it! Don't turn your back on anyone!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> That's right...a brave dog would bite from the front, not wait until the victim's back is turned. The threat is gone when the victim's back is turned, for gosh sake. If a dog was truly responding to a 'challenge' or whatever, they'd meet it face on.
> A dog is not 'protecting' when it bites from behind.
> One of my first 'almost got bit' incidences on the job was a Pug who had no water on a hot day, some called to report.
> 
> ...


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Havent gotten a chance to look at all the responses but i remembered that she got a few shots @ the vet thursday night that she may have had a bad reaction to? She had a Lyme and Leptospirosis vaccination. Friday directly after work (right before we left for Maine) I came home to a room full of diahrea, which SHE'S NEVER DONE!! Could this be a possibility?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

It could have played a small role in it, not feeling well can make a dog do un normal things, but I wouldn't say this is why she did it..


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> Wave a stick over the head and the dog bites the leg, and its a Mal? Sounds to me like someone attempted some really crappy ringsport training and taught the dog people with sticks are to be bitten in the leg!
> 
> Having seen (and still seeing and undoing) the after effects of a "Dog's gotta learn to come through the stick" F-grade helper work on multiple dogs, this sounds exactly like about 3 dogs I know.


Per the OP's previous post on rescuing this dog, and reported by the foster home, this dog has not had any training at all.

With the bite to the leg, after the man had walked away, it points to being a fear based bite.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Yeah. Because they taught her to bite the "bad guy" while he was walking away...??
> This is a fearful dog with an uncertain history. She went after the vet, too, remember? What kind of training involves attacking veterinarians?
> Glad you want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think it's safe for the OP to do so. Either way it broke skin and she needs to be kept safe/away from people while he figures this out.


If he waved a stick perhaps she believed it was training time. I'm not saying it was good training, but just that it could be a learned behavior. BTW, dogs bite people from behind all the time in escape bites. Biting from behind is not in and of itself a show of fear.

I didn't see the part about attacking a vet, however thats not that uncommon depending on their experience with vets. My male loved the vet until they gave him a prostate exam and took a bladder sample with a catheter without any meds while holding him down. He hates the vet now, and I can't say I blame him.

I will say clearly though, if the dog ever bit someone that wasn't "supposed" to be bitten, I'd prevent that from ever happening again by not putting the dog or any person in a situation such that it was possible.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

My biggest fear is she goes from a 1 to a 10 in a split second.

I took Zoey for a walk with my buddies GSD, Laura. Laura is about 85-90 lbs, a lot bigger than Zoey, and is quite dominant of other dogs, especially young ones. They were walking fine and Laura would do something such as put her paw on Zoey and go to nip her neck, then Zoey would FLIPP and go hysterical. 1-10 in a flip of a switch and being a smaller dog, it was weird seeing her put such a dominant dog right in her place.

They did this a few times and at the end of the walk was the worst that Laura actually got scared and hid behind her owner. When Zoey gets mad, its no joke and my past GSD never did anything like this. Not only does she bark and lunge, but she snaps her teeth together so loud its extremely intimidating. 

I'm going to take a few weeks with just me and her and decide what I want to do.

I appreciate everyones response.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> That's right...a brave dog would bite from the front, not wait until the victim's back is turned. The threat is gone when the victim's back is turned, for gosh sake. If a dog was truly responding to a 'challenge' or whatever, they'd meet it face on.
> A dog is not 'protecting' when it bites from behind.
> One of my first 'almost got bit' incidences on the job was a Pug who had no water on a hot day, some called to report.
> 
> ...


Biting from the front or back is not indicative of bravery. The threat is gone when the threat is no longer present. The posturing is diminished when the threat turns away, but not gone. If you turn and square off with the wrong dog, that can very well *get* you bitten. Whether you realize it or not, you're giving threatening posture when you face a dog. When you look at him you're making it worse. When you talk to him you're making it worse. Your best bet is to turn sideways and the smallest profile you can present and watch out of the corner of your eye but not directly.

Infact your last statement "Don't turn your back on anyone" is infact an instinctual posturing response to say to "anyone" "I'm not to be messed with", and it is born out of a fear that "anyone" is not to be trusted and means you harm.

A brave dog will bite from the front, the side, the bottom, the top, the back (and all prefer to bite where there is the most safety for them) or anywhere else they can reach.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Nickyb said:


> My biggest fear is she goes from a 1 to a 10 in a split second.
> 
> I took Zoey for a walk with my buddies GSD, Laura. Laura is about 85-90 lbs, a lot bigger than Zoey, and is quite dominant of other dogs, especially young ones. They were walking fine and Laura would do something such as put her paw on Zoey and go to nip her neck, then Zoey would FLIPP and go hysterical. 1-10 in a flip of a switch and being a smaller dog, it was weird seeing her put such a dominant dog right in her place.
> 
> ...


Don't get intimidated by snappy teeth. All my dogs do that. Just means they fit together nicely .

Make sure, to the best of your ability, you have supreme control over your emotions. When she does snap, you need to be neutral in emotion, but firm in handling it. Hard to do, but the neutral emotional piece is important. Otherwise you're throwing gas on the fire.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Twyla said:


> Per the OP's previous post on rescuing this dog, and reported by the foster home, this dog has not had any training at all.
> 
> With the bite to the leg, after the man had walked away, it points to being a fear based bite.


Yes, but as though someone who realized (or just thought the dog sucked) they messed up the dog with some poor training in *bitework* is going to say any of that when surrendering the dog to a rescue or other place.

I'm not saying what I said is the most likely scenario, just that that is what jumped out at me when I read it, and is a possible scenario. I wasn't there. I don't know if he walked away 10 yards and then the dog bit, or if he saw the stink eye and tried to walk away briskly (which would look like an escape bite), or what. Or what the stick in the hand looked like (how fast did it move, what did the stick look like, did he say anything when the stick was in his hand, etc).


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There is the problem again - Laura shouldn't do that, because she shouldn't be allowed to do that by her human, and Zoey wouldn't have to defend herself from being bullied, because you would have stepped in and stopped the nonsense when Laura's human did not. 

What I would encourage you in all of this is to NOT place her yourself. You do not know her well enough, are not reading her well enough (no fault, just objectively saying) - I am not sure if the rescue is, but they have policies in place for her lifetime return, which is to everyone's advantage. 

I am not sure how you spent $2000 in one month but wow! That's a lot for a new dog.  The training part is the good investment, with a good return, IF you get the right trainer. So consider it that way...

Also, just FYI, the Lyme vaccine: Baker Institute : Animal Health : Lyme Disease way down, there are some thoughts about not doing it - something to research further for you while you are taking some quiet time! 

During that quiet time I would be redoing the shutdown for her benefit, making sure I was using NILIF, doing some tethering to me for fun, fast, obedience sessions with praise and rewards...and trying to find a trainer that was knowledgeable and practical, who could start her off teaching her in a positive way, as she is, training wise, a large 8 week old puppy, with the reactions of an adult dog. 

Good luck!


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Yeah. Because they taught her to bite the "bad guy" while he was walking away...??


 
You'd be surprised with some of the 'training' that goes on out there.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

hunterisgreat said:


> Infact your last statement "Don't turn your back on anyone" is infact an instinctual posturing response to say to "anyone" "I'm not to be messed with", and it is born out of a fear that "anyone" is not to be trusted and means you harm.


Um...WHAT??? I mean anyone as in "dogs". Here, we have so many dogs coming and going they are referred to as "someone" or "anyone". Not sure what you are talking about!? It's never a good idea to turn your back on a dog. Don't stare at it, but don't turn completely. Turn sideways and glance at it, but don't stare - but also do not turn your back because a fearful dog will bite _then._ 



hunterisgreat said:


> A brave dog will bite from the front, the side, the bottom, the top, the back (and all prefer to bite where there is the most safety for them) or anywhere else they can reach.


No, scaredy cat dogs that don't like confrontation will bite when someone's back is turned. They will not approach from the front and confront someone, they wait and go for the back - after the threat is removed - that is, the threat is now leaving. Dogs don't think like you or I as in "the threat is still there, it's over there", their fear begins to diminish immediately when the threat's back is turned and it's walking away. Why go after someone who's already leaving??



> They were walking fine and Laura would do something such as put her paw on Zoey and go to nip her neck, then Zoey would FLIPP and go hysterical. 1-10 in a flip of a switch and being a smaller dog, it was weird seeing her put such a dominant dog right in her place.


Well...um...this is Dog 101. No dog likes to have another (new) dog's paw placed on it's back! Why would you place Zoey in this position in the first place?
I hope the other dog's owner was there. If you wanted to walk, that is fine. But it seems you're putting Zoey deliberately into positions in which she's vastly uncomfortable, instead of gearing up for the long haul with her and getting her to trust you first


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## Zookeep (May 17, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> No, scaredy cat dogs that don't like confrontation will bite when someone's back is turned. They will not approach from the front and confront someone, they wait and go for the back - after the threat is removed - that is, the threat is now leaving. Dogs don't think like you or I as in "the threat is still there, it's over there", their fear begins to diminish immediately when the threat's back is turned and it's walking away. Why go after someone who's already leaving??



I agree. I had a dog which would watch people come toward him, and as soon as they passed, he would growl and lunge at them. I asked my vet about it, and she said he is fearful, and only brave enough to growl and lunge when they are moving away from him. It made a lot of sense to me.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Was there an argument that fearful dogs won't bite from behind??? :thinking:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GregK said:


> Was there an argument that fearful dogs won't bite from behind??? :thinking:


Yes. Scroll up. Or back to the next to the last page.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Um...WHAT??? I mean anyone as in "dogs". Here, we have so many dogs coming and going they are referred to as "someone" or "anyone". Not sure what you are talking about!? It's never a good idea to turn your back on a dog. Don't stare at it, but don't turn completely. Turn sideways and glance at it, but don't stare - but also do not turn your back because a fearful dog will bite _then._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So a scared dog, who wants the threat to go away, and the threat is going away, why would they bite to keep them there?? you contradict yourself. My point is simply that just because the bite came from behind doesn't mean the dog is full of fear. You can run walk or crawl away from mine, and if they thought it was an escape bite we were doing, they'd bite.. And they are well on the "fearless" side of the scale

I'm well aware of dog behavior. I work dogs that range from nervy and fearful to aggression machines, several times a week.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My fearful dog does not confront from behind. She goes straight at what she considers a threat (dogs). My Boxer will nail you coming and going if given a chance.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> why would they bite to keep them there??


Biting doesn't "keep them there", biting is like a parting shot, saying "...and don't come bck again!!"

Dogs don't think the way humans do. You're attributing human emotions to dogs. Dogs bark at the mail carriers. The mail carriers leave to go about their routes. 
The dog is all "WOW, I barked so loud I made the mail carrier leave!"

Dogs that bite someone as a parting shot are fearful, and the way they think, they've now driven the intruder away, and the extra parting shot (bite) is to make them think twice before coming back this way.




> just because the bite came from behind doesn't mean the dog is full of fear.


In this scenario, with the dog having been dumped @ the shelter and been through a doggie **** and back, yes I'm pretty certain this particular dog has bitten out of fear.

The dogs you work with and train are probably more sound than this rescued dog is.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Lol @ everyone saying that I put her into the worst situations and set her up for failure. I wasn't talking about the situation but if you want me to explain, than i will to stop the assumptions. Simply put, they walked together fine, we stopped and they were sniffing eachother.. ok thats fine..SHOULD I NOT BE DOING THIS BECAUSE I'M SETTING HER UP FOR FAILURE?!?!?!?!?!?!? ok that's what I thought. They were all fine and dandy and the owner and i were talking and Laura goes to put her paw on her. The owner immediately corrected her but Zoey was instant on the flip out. Before i could even think, Zoey already lunged for her neck, snapping her teeth and barking until i could correct her. She was fine after that until she did it again. 

You say that i set her up for failure by bringing her to Maine with strange people, but did you forget to read that shes MET them before she attacked him? The rescue I talked to even said "How will you know if shes ready until you actually put her in situations?" 

Talking to my best friends father, shes fine with it and loves him, but his neighbor walks over and she goes berserk.

During our walk yesterday, an old man is outside of his house. She catches a glimpse of him and FLIPS out, basically had to carry her out of there.

Yes i correct her whenever she tries to fixate on something or someone but there's only so much you can do. The rescue knows that they didn't properly evaluate her and will be looking for a more suitable home for her. I love this dog to death, but i want whats best for her and i feel my lifestyle is and would be to stressful on her. I will continue on working with her and pray that this is just a fluke so I can keep her but it looks dim.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Nickyb said:


> I will continue on working with her and pray that this is just a fluke so I can keep her but *it looks dim*.


Not beating you up 

I am saying however, that if there is any doubt whatsoever then you should work with the rescue for a suitable home. As much as you love her already, has done good in different situations, she has already proven she will have to be managed. She will become a lifestyle and if you aren't able to commit 100% to her it won't be fair to her or yourself. Be aware that the rescue may have a difficult time placing her with the history she has.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Twyla said:


> Not beating you up
> 
> I am saying however, that if there is any doubt whatsoever then you should work with the rescue for a suitable home. As much as you love her already, has done good in different situations, she has already proven she will have to be managed. She will become a lifestyle and if you aren't able to commit 100% to her it won't be fair to her or yourself. Be aware that the rescue may have a difficult time placing her with the history she has.


Thank you for the comment.

I truly just want the best for Zoey. I know with me, she'll be stressed whenever we go different places and I'll always have to have a leash on her whenever we do. Zoey doesn't deserve that, she is truly a good dog and one of the most affectionate I've ever owned. I've contacted the rescue and they will be making some phone calls for her, but I will foster her in the mean time. If we can't find another home for her, she's staying with me, but I want to give her the chance.

PS, i do apologize for my last comment, but those comments really boiled my blood.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Sometimes dogs just do not work out in certain homes or situations. It is not her fault or your fault, and I for one think you are smart for looking ahead and realizing that she is not going to work out. 
The majority of rescue dogs come with baggage and if the rescue you got her from did not totally evaluate her, then is sounds as if this is why she was in rescue in the first place.
Of course you love her and have tried very hard to make her work out, but sometimes that love you have for her means placing her back into the rescue and let them work out the issues and find another situation that will work, if that is possible.
You can only try and work on these issue for so long until you no longer "like" her or her issues. You will start to hate going anywhere or do anything because of her ability to blow up and at some point, it will become very dangerous and someone, including you can be hurt severely.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Nickyb said:


> Thank you for the comment.
> 
> I truly just want the best for Zoey. I know with me, she'll be stressed whenever we go different places and I'll always have to have a leash on her whenever we do. Zoey doesn't deserve that, she is truly a good dog and one of the most affectionate I've ever owned. I've contacted the rescue and they will be making some phone calls for her, but I will foster her in the mean time. If we can't find another home for her, she's staying with me, but I want to give her the chance.
> 
> PS, i do apologize for my last comment, but those comments really boiled my blood.


FA dogs are always controversial. There are a million different opinions for the causes, training and how to handle them. What it comes down to is you doing the research and doing what is best for your dog. 

I'm not surprised that Zoey is so affectionate. I can imagine as well that those that haven't seen her in action refuse to believe the Jekyll and Hyde personality. At least that is the way it is with Woolf.

Since there may be a chance you will be keeping her if the rescue is unable to find a home, begin doing some research now so you are prepared. You will probably learn a few things that will help while fostering her. Locate and talk with behaviorists, even have evaluations done. You'll learn more about Zoey for the long run or have information available for the rescue so that they can be better able to find the more appropriate home for her.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

We had a training session for our reactive dogs last night. My trainer is wonderful. She made a very important point that you need to keep in mind....

ALL AGGRESSION IS BASED IN FEAR

It's not that you are setting her up to fail. It's that you don't know what her triggers are and you are putting her in situations that are not controlled. You are right that until you put her in those situations, you'll never know if she's ready BUT you need to really pay attention to her body language and look for stress signs. And once she has successfully met a person/dog, then remove her so she won't have a reason to react.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Nickyb said:


> Thank you for the comment.
> 
> I truly just want the best for Zoey. I know with me, she'll be stressed whenever we go different places and I'll always have to have a leash on her whenever we do. Zoey doesn't deserve that, she is truly a good dog and one of the most affectionate I've ever owned. I've contacted the rescue and they will be making some phone calls for her, but I will foster her in the mean time. If we can't find another home for her, she's staying with me, but I want to give her the chance.
> 
> PS, i do apologize for my last comment, but those comments really boiled my blood.


I disagree with the comments that blamed you. You wanted a dog you can take everywhere with you, you let the rescue group know that in advance, and still ended up with a dog that doesn't fit your lifestyle or your needs. While an experienced handler may have been able to foresee those situations and deal with them, it sounds like she is so reactive even sensitive handling won't work with her. She needs to be in a home where she's not exposed to as many of her triggers.

You've done a service to the group and to the dog by doing their evaluation for them. Now they know the type of home she needs, they can make a better placement of her in the future. You also know what to look for and what questions to ask for the next dog. I had a similar situation to yours with a dog I fostered and planned to keep. Instead, I turned her over to a new home, where she is thriving. My lifestyle is more like yours, this dog needed a more sedentary home. We worked with a trainer, and still weren't able to deal with her issues (she chased cars). The trainer said any time someone tells you that you aren't working correctly with the dog, hand them the leash and tell them show you that they can handle her better. In the case of this dog, no one else could. 

I also don't like to fault the rescue group, they do the best they can. It sounds like whoever fostered and evaluated her didn't place her in trigger situations for her, so they saw the gentle loving side of the dog that you have come to know. Had they put her in similar places, with strangers waving their arms, and men of all ages, they would have seen the same thing.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank you everyone for the recent kind words, it has really brightened my spirit up. I've been beating myself up since the incident happened and been really confused, and now its clear. I've been looking at it as I'm abandoning her, and it has been killing me inside. Now I see it as I was re-evaluating her, even though it cost me $375 for a adoption fee that i probably wont see back, to help them out with her. 

At the beginning of this thread, I felt attacked when all I was looking for was help, advice and guidance to do the right thing. I'm a very stubborn person but when it comes to the sweet and innocent love from dogs, I want nothing but the absolute best for them. Again, I thank you, you've made it easier for me to live with this decision and made me realize to do the right thing.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It's not that you are setting her up to fail. It's that you don't know what her triggers are and you are putting her in situations that are not controlled.


Although it comes across as harsh (when I say "set her up for failure) and I do not intend it to, this is the best explanation. 

I feel the same way when people adopt a dog from us, and rush it out too soon to a petstore, for instance, before they even know how the dog will react to the situation. Often it ends in a semi-disaster and we have to go back to square one with the situation, although we usually can help the new owner work through things, often it just sets the stage for future failures.

I am sorry Zoey's not working out for you. It's one of the toughest things to have happen.
Remember, a life of management is stressful on all. When you do relinquish (if that's your decision, and nobody here would blame you) you'll feel a ton of weight lifted off your shoulders.

Also, although I respect your decision to rescue as opposed to buying, I'd say rescued dogs do sometimes have "baggage" and it's up to the rescue to provide you with as much info as they can, and also to make sure you're a good match. 
We had a dog a while back who was wonderful with other dogs but was leash reactive. We did not know that because we didn't leash walk her. If you saw where we lived you'd realize why not 
Anyway the adopters planned to take her all the cool places owners take their dogs, and it wasn't working because this dog became a brat on a leash and would bark at other dogs incessantly - as if aggressive.

We found the dog another placement. We didn't know, all we knew was she was fine with other dogs as she played with them daily.

It's about matching, as well as possible, the dog to the owner and in your situation the dog isn't matching what you need in a dog. As others said, neither you or the dog are at fault for this.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

What has not been addressed is that a dog that already has a bite history is hard to impossible to place. There are already too many without bite history looking for homes that adopters can chose from. Some rescues don't even place dogs with bite history, they euthanize them. 
People often go to rescues wanting to surrender the dog they love but cannot have because they cannot have the dog bite their friends. The question is, who can have such a dog. She is lucky if the rescue will work with her and possibly keep her forever (or not) after the bite.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Unfortunately I think what might be harder than the 'bite/nip' in placing, is the unpredictability


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

RebelGSD said:


> What has not been addressed is that a dog that already has a bite history is hard to impossible to place.


I agree. Keep her. Train her.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Unfortunately I think what might be harder than the 'bite/nip' in placing, is the unpredictability


Legally, for a rescue, there is huge difference between placing a reactive dog with no bite history and one with bite history. It also has legal consequences for the future adopter. Unfortunately a bite will often seal a rescue dog's fate, regardless of the circumstances.

It is not really that unpredictable. She seems very uncomfortable with older, new men in general, but deals with it and tries to please. Both the vet exam and the waving of the stick in her face were outside the pleasant pet interactions with a dog. She would likely need much more time to fully accept and relax around a person who falls into this class.l


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree about the bite. Not sure how the rescue wants to handle that.
Here, dogs that bite so badly they puncture skin, and especially a larger breed, and with little to no provocation, usually get a one way trip to the vet 

I agree also about the "unpredictability", and Rebel's assessment. 
This is why it's so critical to build a bonding process with troubled dogs that have been in rescue. The bonding process is where the dog learns to rely on you, and that you will "protect it" from things like have been going on. 

Leashing the dog is a form of protection - a muzzle at the vet is also a form of protection, because both of those take away decisions from the dog. The dog now has no decisions to make. Those things naturally will build reliance on the owner. 
The bonding process isn't about just being your dog's buddy, it's basically building and enforcing reliance (the dog's reliance) on and in the new owner.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> The bonding process isn't about just being your dog's buddy, it's basically building and enforcing reliance (the dog's reliance) on and in the new owner.


 New or old owner - that 's great advice to always remember. Zoey's behavior reminds me of "I'm Listening with One Ear Broken" by Vicky Kaseorg and "Rex and the City" by Lee Harrington. Both books (also on e-books) are true stories of rescue dogs who were fear aggressive, the doubts their new owners had about keeping them, and how the managed. While you're fostering Zoey, you may want to read them - they may give you some insight. Looking ahead, you may want to consider a different breed, one more known for socialibility, like a lab or golden retriever. Malinois, GSDs, Dobes are all known for being one-person or one-family dogs - it would be more difficult for you to find a sociable dog of those breeds.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I appreciate the all the comments. I will add one thing, this dog will NOT be put to sleep, period. If there is no home for her with her bite history(although it wasn't reported) she will have to live with me. This dog is too good of a dog to be put to sleep.

Mary Beth- thank you for the advice but i have to strongly disagree with gsd's and dobes not being social. Honestly it's all how you raise them, Princess was the most sociable dog I've ever met and she was mine, yes she had her quirks but i could take her anywhere I wanted without a worry. She was a purebred GSD, when I had party's at my house, she would hang out with everyone, not being a pain by asking to be petted, just watched and appreciated anyone that would say hello. I don't like labs or retrievers so I would never get one. 

The reason why I'm giving her up is so she has a chance to excel and be happy, if there's no home for her, she'll always have me.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Nickyb-

I have followed this thread from the beginning and want to say that I admire your dedication to do what is right for Zoey. It is not an easy road to follow and then again the rewards are immense, either way it goes. I say this from personal experience. 

My Nadia was much the same as Zoey although I can't swear how long my girl was in rescue. She is loving and sweet with me, and responds well to me. In the three years I have had her she has amazed me. But I remember being in your shoes in the beginning.

I was so frustrated. I wanted to cry. I thought about sending her back. I didn't think she was right for me. I didn't think I had it in me to do the work to make her whole. I didn't want to fail her after whatever she had been through before me though, so I dug my heels in and started doing everything I could think of. 

While there are always what if's, I found a balance that works for us. It was not without many trials and tribulations, and blood, sweat and tears. As it turned out, she is imply not the kind of dog that can be trusted 100% around people. She will do those sneaky nips any chance she gets, and being a powerful girl, she always leaves a bruise although doesn't break skin. 

Management is not as difficult as it sounds. When I have company, I know when they are coming most of the time and have her either kenneled or crated prior to their arrival. I still let her meet people, but just make sure she has a toy in her mouth when she does. I still take her out in public. She enjoys many activities, including Dock Diving, walking at the park and running free at another park. The biggest key for any of it is watching her and reading her body language. Easy to do because I know her that well. Recall is a blessing and hers is beautiful. 

So if you do keep her I am sure that you will build a bond and develop and understanding of her quirks that you can not only live with but easily manage. If she goes to another home, I have no doubt that she will find the perfect match where she can excel and be happy there too. Either way, you are doing your best to make sure she will be in good hands and that is what matters most.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Mary Beth- thank you for the advice but i have to strongly disagree with gsd's and dobes not being social. Honestly it's all how you raise them, Princess was the most sociable dog I've ever met


Actually the breed standard calls for "aloofness" with strangers. So yes, I'd tend to agree that if you want or except a social butterfly, you should not get a dog bred for aloof tendencies. 

German Shepherd Dog | American Kennel Club

"...a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships."

And Mals...

http://www.akc.org/breeds/belgian_malinois/
"The breed is confident, exhibiting neither shyness nor aggressiveness in new situations. The dog may be reserved with strangers but is affectionate with his own people."


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

To the OP---

I live with a fearful dog that has never bitten anyone but showed the potential to last December. It has taken *seven months* of training every single day for him to be comfortable (not growling or hiding) with strangers.

In December, if I had a person over, he would have growled at them until they left. I am proud to say that he has met 3 new people this week and let them pet him within 5 minutes of coming into the house without growling once.

With a fearful dog, the MOST IMPORTANT thing I have noticed is that they need a *ROUTINE*. I try to do the exact same things at the same time with Rocky every single day. This way he is not anxious---he knows what is going to happen, at what time, and where ... every single day.

If you do not have the time or money to train this dog, do not keep it. I will let you know that most fearful dogs are never cured...they are simply managed. This dog will NOT be a dog you can take everywhere. Once a dog bites, I would never let my guard down the rest of its life...plan everything and try to keep unexpecteds from happening. This can be difficult to do.

If you plan on keeping the dog, buy a ton of books, hire a trainer, and try to create a schedule that is close to the same every day. Also plan on going and sitting on a bench every day for 20-30 minutes and simply watching people walk by so your dog gets used to all kinds of people.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I will let you know that most fearful dogs are never cured...they are simply managed.


This is so very true. Know your dog has bitten, will bite, and do everything in your power to control every single situation so it doesn't happen again.


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> This is so very true. Know your dog has bitten, will bite, and do everything in your power to control every single situation so it doesn't happen again.


Yep, totally agree. Takes a ton of love and commitment.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

They found her a new home in NC.... They are a retired couple with a male Mali and a female GSD... I don't know if i can give her up now.......


she has been doing MUCH better on a prong collar. We walk by older men and lawnmowers and she seems to be bothered by them that much. Dogs barking dont seem to affect her that much either. Still have some work to do with seeing other dogs but this is going to be a lot harder then i thought. I read the email and started to cry.... I'm a 24 y/o male @ work reading this, thought I was a lot stronger than this.

What do you all think?


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Nickyb said:


> They found her a new home in NC.... They are a retired couple with a male Mali and a female GSD... I don't know if i can give her up now.......


Wow, hard decision isn't it? These special dogs steal your heart in a big way. I know mine has stolen my heart completely. 

Someone on another thread said it the best. An FA dog is a lifestyle. Sit back and look at it from both sides.

Good luck during this time of decision.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Twyla said:


> Wow, hard decision isn't it? .....An FA dog is a lifestyle. Sit back and look at it from both sides.


I couldn't agree more. It is perfectly clear that you want the best for your girl, the only difficulty is knowing what the best is. A retired couple probably includes an older man and he may trouble Zooey, at least at the beginning. Having another female dog could possibly be a problem or not. This possible new home may be great, but there are risks.

Our FA dog really did change how we lived. Some of it was inconvenient, like asking people to call before they entered the house. Most of it was wonderful, because our FA dog was the most gentle creature on earth, to us. He lived inside my heart. However, we are late middle age people with a very quiet home and we could institute a lot of predictability for our dog. That is a lot to ask of a young man for the next 10 years. 

My husband would probably not have adopted our dear Wolf, if he knew what it would mean to our household. I definitely would adopt Wolf again, given the chance. Sort of 50/50 and no help to you at all.

Zooey is lucky to have found you and you will surely honor her devotion in your decision.

Mary Jane


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Honestly? I don't think she is the right dog for you. This is going to come out sounding very rude, but I don't mean it to be. I just want to be honest with you, OP.

You decided before you ever met this dog that she was the one for you. You were given good advice on the other thread, but you wanted the dog that you had already started to mentally live with, before you had even met the dog. Unfortunately, the dog that actually walks through the front door is rarely (if ever) the same dog we have constructed with our imaginations. 

You commented earlier on this thread that you don't have the money to work with a professional to address her issues. Has that changed? Because a dog that will put their teeth on someone, regardless of why, needs the benefit of a qualified professional. Simply putting a prong on her is a band-aid and could easily cause more harm than good. You would need to step up and make a financial commitment to provide a trainer/behaviorist. And that trainer/behaviorist could ask you to change a great deal about how you live with this dog. Are you prepared for that? No justifications or rationalizations, just potentially spend a boatload of money and change your life style while doing it? Because living with a dog like this, you can't make the dog fit your life-style. You have to fit your life-style to the dog. Absolutely you have to while working on the problematic behaviors, and perhaps even for the rest of the dog's life. That is an on-going commitment, one that you have to follow through on day in and day out, and not just while you're emotional at the thought of returning the dog. How emotional are you going to be if you rely on a prong to "fix" the behaviors and the dog bites a child?

I have to question how well the rescue can place her, since they seem to have found her a new home without evaluating her at all. That is a huge red flag for me, given how serious a biting dog can be. Will the rescue take her back and evaluate her prior to sending her off to this other home that she might not be any more appropriate for than yours? My real concern is the dog at this point. It seems to me that people keep putting her in situations that she is not prepared to deal with. 

Again, I apologize for sounding rude. That was not my intention at all. Nor do I want to sound like a know-it-all. I just want you to set aside your emotional investment and take a hard, realistic look at what you're dealing with.

Good luck in your decision. You are both in a stinky situation, that is for sure.
Sheilah


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Nickyb said:


> They found her a new home in NC.... They are a retired couple with a male Mali and a female GSD... I don't know if i can give her up now.......
> 
> 
> she has been doing MUCH better on a prong collar. We walk by older men and lawnmowers and she seems to be bothered by them that much. Dogs barking dont seem to affect her that much either. Still have some work to do with seeing other dogs but this is going to be a lot harder then i thought. I read the email and started to cry.... I'm a 24 y/o male @ work reading this, thought I was a lot stronger than this.
> ...





> This dog is too good of a dog to be put to sleep


.

Here's the thing. 
If you don't have the money to work with her (trainer) then let her go.
As long as this new home is qualified and knows her bite history that is.
If they aren't telling people that - and haven't mentioned the potential dog aggression - the adoptive family owns a bitch already - then perhaps this rescue isn't looking out for the dog's best interest and instead, their own in this case.

Is there any way you can find out about those details??

But either way I agree with others. Using a prong is just a bandaid and you're still going to have another dog-human bite. I'm willing to bet on it.



> Because living with a dog like this, *you can't make the dog fit your life-style*.


This is the biggest cause of adoption failure, IMO.

Sometimes it was not clear when people adopted, often it's not clear, that (for instance) they need a dog who can go to a dog park. They don't verbalize that, but it's in their minds. 
They "love" this dog so much and are already attached to it, but it's not a dog park type dog.
Everyone is miserable, mostly the dog. And the adoption fails, eventually if not almost immediately.

Or the adopter is making the new dog like the old dog, in their minds. "This is how it always is, with my dog". 
I don't blame people for that, but they have to move on and accept that this new dog is not the old dog, and may not even be like the old dog. So don't treat the new dog like you did the old one. 
But people have a hard time changing how they interact with the new dog, because their mindset is on the old one who has passed away.

We have enough dogs here, that if one is not social and doesn't do well in social situations, we can bring one that does. If one isn't a cuddlebug and we want to cuddle, we grab one who does. 
I realize our situation is unique that way.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank you for the replys, I really appreciate it nor do i take it the wrong way. This is exactly what i was looking for.
I know that adopting Zoey, it was between me and this same person in NC. They chose me since i was local and could check in every now and then. They are checking him out with a local person down there and doing a vet check on him. It's extremely hard to rehome her with her history and I think this couple would be the best option. I don't know how shell do with the other dogs or him. He works weekly with his current dogs with a professional trainer and has plenty of time to train them on his own.

I have money, dont get me wrong. All I was saying was that creeping up on the 2 grand mark just in the first month was a bit much. I would be willing to work with her but I just dont trust her with other people.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We never adopt female GSDs to a home with an existing female dog.
We'll never own a female GSD for that reason as well.
Are they prepared to crate/rotate for life if things do not work out? Will they bring the dog back to the rescue? Is it required of the adopter to return the dog or can they place on their own?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

sit said:


> I have to question how well the rescue can place her, since they seem to have found her a new home without evaluating her at all. That is a huge red flag for me, given how serious a biting dog can be. Will the rescue take her back and evaluate her prior to sending her off to this other home that she might not be any more appropriate for than yours? My real concern is the dog at this point. It seems to me that people keep putting her in situations that she is not prepared to deal with.


I have a question on this as well. She is FA with other dogs also? And they are putting her in a home with 2 other dogs? Since she is living with you, do you feel this is a good fit?

I agree with Sheila that this is not the dog for you. FA takes a lot of time and commitment. It's not fun, it's unpredictable and sometimes just a real PIA. She needs to be with an experienced person that has the time and money for training.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I have money, dont get me wrong. All I was saying was that creeping up on the 2 grand mark just in the first month was a bit much. I would be willing to work with her but I just dont trust her with other people.


Someone asked you once before, what the 2k was spent on, but you didn't respond, maybe it's none of our business, but I'm curious too, since you mentioned it again, what was the 2k spent on? Health issues?

You're fine to not trust her with people. But don't use the prong to get around that, simply leave her home, or go places where running into someone isn't going to be an issue. 
Or send her back - but try to learn as much as you can about this placement and what happens to her if it doesn't work out, does she get sent back or what?
I think it's a major red flag they are sending her to a home w/another female.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

repeat post, sorry.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

The $2k was spent on a lot of normal things when you first get a dog (i recently moved out of my old house which was dog friendly into a smaller house with no fence), $600 dog kennel $150 cage $375 adoption fee $250 vet visit $200 to get stocked up for flea meds and heart worm pills (i feel like the vet smoked me on this) $200 in food and treats etc etc. I know a lot of this major expense is a one time thing, but to get hit this hard and something of this immediate nature to get put on me, it's a bit overwhelming and drained the pockets pretty quick. I know i would roughly spend $100 a month on food, treats and toys on her which was fine, but an extra $200+/mo for training at least once a week would get a bit overwhelming on the bank account.

She isn't FA of other dogs, if the dog is well mannered, she'll like it and play.... If the other dog is barking and being a lil sh!t... well she doesn't take to kindly of that.

I would be willing to work with her and give her all the time she needs but at the end of the day, I need to be certain she wouldn't bite any of my family.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Training is as important as vetting and as important as food. It is something you should have considered when you took on the dog, and I am surprised the rescue did not emphasize this. $200/month in training is hard to stomach. We can usually get six weeks for around $100 here. But if this is specifically for dogs with issues, done with a trainer experienced with dogs with issues, that may make total sense and be worth the money. 

It is amazing how dogs can nickel and dime you to death. Hopefully the fallout from the thread about whether or not they are ready for a dog is paying attention to this. Sometimes, you can get a dog, and with very little out of pocket, you can have a nice pet with no issues. For most of us though, the dog needs to get out and go through training, vetting, sometimes several different foods before something is found to work.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I did consider training and everything before getting her. I am fine with paying for professional help. Will I pay $200 every month for 6-8 years?... NO, but i will pay a reasonable amount for a while. I would be more than willing to work with her by all means, I may not have this right but I'm assuming a FA dog needs constant training throughout their life IE 1 session per week for x amount of years where as a normal dog wouldn't need nearly that. I was expecting once a week for the first few months and then slowly move away but what do i know. 
The thing that scared me was all the talk about behavioral experts and seasoned trainers. Well I'm not going to lie but the term "Behavioral expert" seems expensive and I didnt research what the price would be.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Sorry, but you knew going in that this particular dog had the potential for issues that would require good, professional help. And that kind of help isn't cheap, which you said at the time that you were okay with and ready to do whatever it took to make this dog work for you.

I really hope others can learn from your experience. 
Sheilah


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

sit said:


> Sorry, but you knew going in that this particular dog had the potential for issues that would require good, professional help. And that kind of help isn't cheap, which you said at the time that you were okay with and ready to do whatever it took to make this dog work for you.
> 
> I really hope others can learn from your experience.
> Sheilah


I knew going into it that she had problems with other dogs, NOT that she was FA against humans. This was never even mentioned nor did the rescue even know about it. Like I said, I anticipated training for her being dog reactive, sure I'll drop a couple of bucks to see if we can overcome this issue on top of regular training, but nothing to this caliber. I appreciate your criticism but when you falsely accuse me of "knowing that she had all of these problems", well that really gets under my skin and this thread wasn't made for that type of response. I come here looking for help and guidance, and here I am again explaining what i did and didn't know prior to adopting.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nickyb said:


> The thing that scared me was all the talk about behavioral experts and seasoned trainers. Well I'm not going to lie but the term "Behavioral expert" seems expensive and I didnt research what the price would be.


My trainer costs $60/hr. i don't go every week. I go every 2-3 weeks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Well I'm not going to lie but the term "Behavioral expert" seems expensive and I didnt research what the price would be.


The cost breakdown on the last page, could have been done more cheaply, if shopping on Craigslist for kennel (there's always one on our CL!) and crate(cage?), bowls and such we find at 2nd hand stores, etc.

Not sure about vet costs, maybe you got taken, maybe not. 

But either way, all the rest is pointless if you can't keep the dog out of situations she will bite someone in.

Everyone has told you, and I'll say it again, if you're not interested in working with a trainer or behaviorist, which I'm sure can be found cheaper, than simply give her back or leave her home and don't expose her to people.
Those are really your only choices.

1) give her back to the rescue
2) train her properly
3) Manage - which may be all you can do anyway, trainer or no trainer - by not taking her places where she can have a chance to bite someone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No! 

It should not be $200/month for 6 - 8 years. Sorry. YOU will learn her way sooner than that. 

You took a brand spanking new dog all around with you and within a couple of weeks the dog ended up biting someone who shook a stick at her. Now she has a bite history (unless you did not report it), but the rescue (if responsible) will have to tack that on to her ID card, making her near impossible to adopt again.

So giving this dog back, just might mean a death sentence. And, I think you know that. And don't count on it that the rescue will tell you that.

The dog may have never gone that extra mile. It may have never bitten anyone. The situation you put her in MAY have been the first time she felt so little confidence in herself or her responsible person, that she might have felt it necessary to bite.

It may be the rescue did not lie to you about the dog, the dog just may have been handled by people with more experience with dogs in the lurch. 

But I think that in six months of taking your dog to classes weekly and working with her daily, you and she should have built enough of a bond that you will feel a LOT more comfortable with her, her threshold, and her triggers. And she will most likely have confidence that YOU will protect her and get her out of situations, and not let bad things happen to her. Beyond the six months, going to classes may be something you both enjoy and worth the cost and you may continue, and you may back it down to 1 or 2 class sessions in a 12 month period, just tweaking. 

We all have an ideal dog in our brain when we go looking for a pup or a dog. They do not all live up to that ideal. We might want a dog for dock diving and we end up with a dog that hates the water. Do we trudge on teaching the dog to dive off of docks because it is what we want? Or do we go and find something else that the dog might enjoy more.

You wanted a dog you could take anywhere with you. I think you can have that dog, and this could be that dog, but it is not without a price. Maybe this dog will never be that for you. But the answer is not to throw it back and pick another. Sure you can do that, but sometimes you get everything you could dream of in a dog, and it develops a fatal disease, becomes paralyzed, is poisoned. There just aren't any guaranties.

It is not the goal that makes anything worth working for wonderful. It is the journey. We learn very little from the dogs that are easy. We learn the most, and sometimes become the most attached to the dogs that make us think and make us work.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Nickyb said:


> I appreciate your criticism but when you falsely accuse me of "knowing that she had all of these problems", well that really gets under my skin and this thread wasn't made for that type of response. I come here looking for help and guidance, and here I am again explaining what i did and didn't know prior to adopting.


I never said that you knew she had "all these problems". I said that you knew going in that she had "the potential for issues" and that those issues would require professional help. Go back and read through your other thread. You were clear that this was the dog you wanted and that you were willing to work with her. I don't mean to sound like I am criticizing you. But you said what you said. 

I agree, fear aggression directed at people is different from dog aggression. But regardless of which issue you are dealing with, professional help is necessary. And you stated that you were prepared and able to get that help when you decided to adopt the dog. Working through these types of issues doesn't require weekly sessions for the rest of the dog's life. It requires no more financial and time commitment to work through fear aggression than it does through dog aggression. 

If the dogs stays with you, there have to be changes in order for a better outcome. And one of those changes is finding a qualified professional to work with, regardless of how much you have spent already. 

Take the emotion out of it, look at the situation as it is and not how you want it to be or how it should be or how it might be. Then decide based on what is best for the dog. Maybe you could be the back-up for this other home? If it doesn't work out for her there, you could take her back and work with her yourself.
Sheilah


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I haven't commented on this thread before, but I did on your original adoption thread. 

I really don't think your dog is too bad. I think you put her into situations that were too stressful for her and the man with the stick really didn't help (How is he btw).

As you said in the other thread you were led to believe she was dog reactive - not FA with people. If you had been aware of the problem you'd have handled it differently, and so would your friends Dad. 

I see no reason why she shouldn't be turned around with the right handling, and you can always use a muzzle if necessary. 

I have a FA aggressive dog that I know we can never trust with people, and it's one h*ll of a huge commitment. But I don't think your dog is in that catergory. What did the vet think of his behaviour ?
_________
Sue


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I was 100% behind you when you posted originally about getting her. I still remain 100% behind her. You have a situation where she has had issues with 2 people out of how many? Both were older men? Seems to be a pattern that obviously the dog can't tell you about. Years ago I rescued a Rott that was between 1-3 years old...she just had puppies and was dumped. I brought her to my parents house and she instantly growled at my dad. My mom continued to hand me her credit card and told me to take her to the vet for shots and a check up. Well the vet didn't trust her either, he was down right scared. It took about 2-4 weeks of my dad walking her, ignoring her obvious dislike of him, showing her lots of love before this dog stopped growling at him. When the dog got older and had to be put to sleep my dad cried like a baby. My point is although I can understand that you have spent lots of money on this dog, the most important thing for her right now is additional training and socialization. Whether its based on abuse or fear(at this point its probably one in the same) simply has to be worked through. Lots of mental exercise and learning how to read her. I don't even know if I would considered it complete FA at this point, maybe the start of it. She did feel threatened and she really didn't know this person, even if she did meet him briefly that same day. If you learn how to read her, lots of things can be avoided. She is not used to your lifestyle, you have to train her and prepare her for this. You had her for a month and took her to another strange place, maybe she thought she was getting dumped again? I would wait at least 6 months before taking her anywhere that might scare her. 6 months is not a long time if that is what it takes for her to bond with you and trust you. Please give her a chance, it might be the best thing for both of you. Good Luck.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I came back and read this thread this afternoon, began a reply, and ended up just walking away from it. Decided to try again and attempt to be polite.

In your first post regarding the possible adoption of this dog, you were asked to do a LOT of research and reconsider adopting her. The possibility of her fitting into your lifestyle was shaky at best.

The potential for her being a great companion is there. Will she have to be managed? YES. It will require COMMITMENT from you. You bet it will be more then a couple of bucks for training, but it won't be the amount you are imagining. 

Instead of sending her on to yet another home, accept the responsibility and work with her. Shut her down for the next few months, spend the time in training and you learning how to manage her, let her learn to trust and bond to you, you learn her triggers. 

It's a hard decision to make. I still say good luck with it and adding that hope you do right by the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you take a dog as an adult out of its home, throw it into a foster home, it learns new people and then is uprooted again and adopted out, and taken all over, and never gets a chance to settle in and gain some confidence in its new person. 

And then you take some yayhoo that needs his head examined, who goes over and shakes a stick over the dog's head, and the dog bites him. 

OFF WITH IT'S HEAD!

A dog is only a poor beast. It does not speak our language. It has a different hierarchy of needs. If we choose to take an creature into our homes, we have some responsibility for it. If the dog is totally unstable and without any provocation bites, maybe it is better to spend the time on critters who are put down only because there is no room at the inn. BUT, if we take on a dog, and we realize that we made some mistakes, went way too far, way too fast, then we owe it to the dog to try.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> Yes I understand that.
> 
> But realistically, in this world, there will be strangers walking by with sticks or hats or whatever random object scares the dog. Dogs are domestic animals and need to be able to operate safely in society.
> 
> ...


All of your points would be valid if the new owner wasn't already aware there were issues with the dog. The OP was aware, while not to the possible extent of issues, the potential was there. He was advised to reconsider adoption based on his busy lifestyle.

An unsure dog was placed in a situation of stranger, no bond support and stick waved at her head. It was the perfect recipe for a bite.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

ALL dogs bite! i myself have been bite by yorkies and a chug..but i dont think a dog deserves to be put down because it has bit a guy holding a stick..and it bit his finger if i remeber correctly! think about the dog..he was in a foster home...then went to his new owners home who then took him to someone elses home..thats alot on a poor dog.Hes getting use to his surroundings and new things too.The man with the stick prob freaked him out.That dosent sound like a fear aggresive dog to me...sounds like a isolated incident. dont give up on the dog..the more the poor thing keeps getting bounced around the less confidence and trust he will build..he needs a stable and steady home life


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I really think the owner should not take the dog anywhere, but I think they should start the dog in classes. That is the only place they should go once a week. Stay out of the way if necessary, work behind a screen if necessary and possible, but the best way to build the bond, and learn each other is to do active training.

And some people can do this all on their own, but I need a class to keep on track.


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Twyla said:


> All of your points would be valid if the new owner wasn't already aware there were issues with the dog. The OP was aware, while not to the possible extent of issues, the potential was there. He was advised to reconsider adoption based on his busy lifestyle.
> 
> An unsure dog was placed in a situation of stranger, no bond support and stick waved at her head. It was the perfect recipe for a bite.


I didn't know the owner was aware there were issues with the dog at adoption? Dog reactivity, yes. Human aggression, no.

Of course I am a former pit bull owner so to me those two things are worlds apart from each other. 

I understand this is a rescue dog and she probably has a bad history. This is true. He had her for a month though before putting her in the new situation, which I see people saying is not enough time, but for most dogs it would be. People take rescues to new situations a month after getting them all the time and they do not bite people. 

I see a high level of expectation of coddling the dog here. Some people are up for that, others not so much.

I think generally we need dogs who are stable temperamentally and who can handle a certain level of change and most of the people they will encounter in the world. This could be an isolated incident, heck it could be a response to direct aggression, I don't know from the OP's description. Or it could be a sign this dog is going to require extensive training and a lifetime of management. If it's the latter, keeping her might not be the best thing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

minerva_deluthe said:


> I think generally we need dogs who are stable temperamentally and who can handle a certain level of change and most of the people they will encounter in the world. This could be an isolated incident, heck it could be a response to direct aggression, I don't know from the OP's description. Or it could be a sign this dog is going to require extensive training and a lifetime of management. If it's the latter, keeping her might not be the best thing.


The problem is that when a person decides to rescue a dog a stable temperament is a big gamble. Lots of dogs are in shelters because their original owners didn't take the time to train or socialize them. This is part of the deal when a person rescues a dog...there is no history, therefore making most rescues in need of lots of work and dedication. A dog needs structure, training, and socializing..we as the humans are the ones that give that to the dog.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Yes, you can keep Zoey, but she will never be the sociable dog like Princess was. Can you change yourself and become a loner? No, as one of the many posts in the original adoption thread commented, you would end of resenting the dog if you had to make such changes in your lifestyle. So, learn from this experience, and don't repeat the same mistake twice. There are plenty of sociable dogs out there who need a home. As I said before, unless you look into other breeds (labs, golden retrievers), it will be very difficult to find a sociable GSD, Malinois, or Dobe. Whatever breed or mixed breed dog you decide you want, the next time - take some of your friends along with you to meet the dog. When the rescue representative pays a home visit, have friends over and their dogs. That way the rescue will know better what environment the dog will be going into. You deserve to have a dog that fits your lifestyle. Let your head rule, not your heart,and find that dog. Let Zoey go on to her new home, and move on to your next dog.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Mary Beth said:


> Yes, you can keep Zoey, but she will never be the sociable dog like Princess was. Can you change yourself and become a loner? No, as one of the many posts in the original adoption thread commented, you would end of resenting the dog if you had to make such changes in your lifestyle. So, learn from this experience, and don't repeat the same mistake twice. There are plenty of sociable dogs out there who need a home. As I said before, unless you look into other breeds (labs, golden retrievers), it will be very difficult to find a sociable GSD, Malinois, or Dobe. Whatever breed or mixed breed dog you decide you want, the next time - take some of your friends along with you to meet the dog. When the rescue representative pays a home visit, have friends over and their dogs. That way the rescue will know better what environment the dog will be going into. You deserve to have a dog that fits your lifestyle. Let your head rule, not your heart,and find that dog. Let Zoey go on to her new home, and move on to your next dog.


Just out of curiosity, should they bring someone with a stick that may be threatening to the new dog? This is the problem and why so many dogs are homeless. If a person takes on the responsibility of a dog, it is not to be taken lightly. Dogs should not be tossed aside because of a poor human decision. Whatever happened to actually making things work and putting some time and dedication into everything we(people) do? Lets remember that the human chose the dog and not vice versa. Yes lets learn from our mistakes and make it right...by right I mean working with what we have and not tossing it aside to get something that might or might not be better.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

You guys may want to *do want to* (aka will) start another thread with this theoretical information so that the focus can remain on the reality of the situation here. Thanks!
Jean
Admin


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I'm sorry but this is hogwash, IMO.
> I've had to move dozens of dogs, or more, when they are sick and vomiting. They are more interested in vomiting than biting someone.
> No clue what was going on there, but if you can't move a dog (by collar or not), while it's vomiting, without fear of being bitten, there is a problem.


I don't see it as a problem and since I wasn't there to witness it, I believe that he probably grabbed her in a not so nice way. Again I must stress that in 7 years this is the only time she has ever bitten anyone. I move her all the time when she is not feeling well or getting ready to vomit on the bed versus the floor, etc. I'm not afraid to move her and she has never gone after me in any way when I touch her. So again I go back to the way he handle it and it wasn't very well.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I dunno about this one. 
If you waved a stick above my dog, he would wag his tail and "grin" at you expecting you to throw it. So would many other dogs. 

OP was hoping to get a dog who, per the rescue, was only DA. Unfortunately, the problems go deeper.

Not many people are equipped to handle an aggressive, biting dog. Not everyone has the time, not everyone has the dedication. Just because I would do things one way should not mean others should be expected to do as I would.

I honestly couldn't handle such a dog. If Op can't, then the dog would not be in the best situation, either and would best be placed with someone who could address the dog's problems..


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## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

llombardo said:


> The problem is that when a person decides to rescue a dog a stable temperament is a big gamble. Lots of dogs are in shelters because their original owners didn't take the time to train or socialize them. This is part of the deal when a person rescues a dog...there is no history, therefore making most rescues in need of lots of work and dedication. A dog needs structure, training, and socializing..we as the humans are the ones that give that to the dog.


I disagree with this. I think that if rescues are billed as a big gamble, going to take a ton of work, you never know what you're getting and must stick it through no matter what... we'd have a lot fewer dogs rescued. 

When a dog shows that it will bite, very careful stock of the situation needs to be taken. Deciding to keep such a dog is a weighty decision. So is giving it away, or putting it down, yes. But I'm really not getting the pressure here on the OP. He has a big decision to make, and there is no obvious answer or One Right Way.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm going to move on from this thread, but I sincerely hope that the OP decides to work with this dog. You(the OP) were so set on her and went back and forth on your decision to adopt her. In the end you got a good dog(you said so yourself) that has some issues that need work. I firmly believe that with some time, patience, and dedication this dog can be what you are looking for in a dog. Good Luck


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

For me - I am big into fear aggression. It's something I got pretty good at, so now I like it. I am not an overly social person - I like to outskirt things - or do things just with the dogs - I am very protective, a helicopter owner - so that my dog can't make a mistake, I wrote a big giant post that's a sticky here about how to avoid your dog being put in a position to bite someone, and so I am the kind of person that would be a good match for a dog like this. It would not cause me to alter my lifestyle or do anything different. That's the whole idea of match. 

You want social and that's not typical in the breed - you can find it - in adults, or in GSD mixes with social breeds like Huskies...but while they can hang out and be a part of things, they are not necessarily going to be going up to people. I am not sure what your definition of social is, or what your expectations are and I think those need to be clearly defined. 

Sit, stays first post with concerns about placing her again, with no eval - are these people going to drive up to MA to have the dogs meet to make sure they are compatible? What happens once she is there if something goes wrong...etc, etc, concerns me as well. 

So she pretty clearly is not a match for you - when you have children if you do - what will you be thinking then. But placement without meetings is not a good thing either. 

I don't know.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> I dunno about this one.
> If you waved a stick above my dog, he would wag his tail and "grin" at you expecting you to throw it. So would many other dogs.
> 
> OP was hoping to get a dog who, per the rescue, was only DA. Unfortunately, the problems go deeper.
> ...



Right, but you know your dog wasn't abused!! There is no history on this dog and no one knows what its been through before this. This might be her 10th home for all anyone knows. Okay I'll shut up now and move on


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

There is another thread in the Aggression section for the theoretical discussion.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> placement without meetings is not a good thing either.


Placement without meetings is kinda crazy, if you don't mind my saying so. Especially since the other family has a female. Sounds like an impending disaster.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I don't mind you saying so at all! I don't care how experienced people are, I do not think that is a best practice for dogs. 

Here is the theoretical thread: Theoretical parallel discussion on dog biting from another thread


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

But can a meeting really do what you want though? The dog is a female adult. The people have an adult female? The dog is dog aggressive? Are we setting this dog up to be put down? 

I mean, a dog who is uprooted might take some time before they settle in and the behaviors for which they are no longer homed, come out. Some dogs are fine with dogs outside of their pack but will fight with same sex within the pack. How will a meeting really help that. 

Isn't it better to look for a home where the people have no other dogs (DA), and, because this dog will likely need to have the attention to training, socialization, management etc, doesn't it make sense to give this dog a chance with a family that doesn't already have a dog and so time for training, etc, will likely be halved or close to halved?

When Jazzy (3years) came to live with me, Arwen was 2 years. Arwen was not dog aggressive, and I do not know that Jazzy was either. We lived together fine for about 2-3 months and then WWIII. From that point on, I spent two years keeping them separated because they would have killed each other. I heaved great sighs of relief when my brother took his dog back home. But they were fine together to start with. A meeting would not have helped.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

A meeting in MA is much better than sending this dog to the south, sight unseen, and having it happen there. 

I totally agree that the better way is to find someone who has a nice way of working with this behavior and either has no other dogs to interfere with that, or a nice, steady, balanced male to model good behaviors and to give confidence.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Something weird happened earlier and things got split from this post, I guess -- but I just wanted to respond to the OP, so I'm cutting and pasting it in. (Mod? Please do delete my "dupe" post on the "new" thread on this if needed! Thanks!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nickyb*  
_... I love this dog with all my heart, she really is an awesome dog. All of my friends LOVE her and she's never had an issue with anyone..._

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nickyb*  
_....I am very attached to her already as is my girlfriend. She started to cry at the thought of giving Zoey back up as did I...._

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nickyb*  
_....I love this dog....._

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nickyb*  
_I love this dog to death..._

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nickyb*  
_I truly just want the best for Zoey...._

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nickyb*  
_... I don't know if i can give her up now..._

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Nickyb*  
_... I read the email and started to cry.... I'm a 24 y/o male @ work reading this, thought I was a lot stronger than this...._

What do I think?  Put up or shut up.  Honestly I say that in all sweet sincerity. You love this dog. You want the best for this dog. This dog is perhaps "over your head," but I took on such a dog a few months back, too. Not the same issues, but you learn as you go.  I'm 4+ months in with my "challenge," and I don't regret it for a single second. Now, if you had talked to me 2 or 3 months ago?  Different answers probably. Is it "easy" now? NO! But we've had enough time now to bond, to develop routines, to work on basic training, etc. 

You've put lots of money into this. Now you need management, training, time, dedication and bond building. You can do this thing if you want to do this thing. You know her triggers. (Men, it sounds like.) Sure, a trainer to come in would be invaluable, but you can work this with LAT, NILIF and be much farther along than where you were! When you see success with such things, it will boost your confidence.

Did I cry at times? YEAH! He was a nutjob! He bashed me into walls! :rofl: I would lay in my bed thinking oh my goodness, WHAT have I done taking in this crazy dog??? I do NOT know what I'm doing here! (And I didn't.) I asked questions and slooowly, but surely, he wormed himself into my heart and as I tried various suggestions, they began to work... and life slowly became easier.

There are no overnight cures. No easy answers and no one size fits all solutions. 

The answer is in your own heart and you'll find it. Just do your best to get off the fence and go one direction or another.


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## SDChicken (May 6, 2012)

Just curious if anyone knows....Was the stick waved as in "hey wanna play fetch?" as he walked by or waved as in get out of my way as he approached the dog?

Just wondering if we even know in what context the stick was waved and I missed it?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I was thinking that if the dog thought the guy wanted to play with her, and when the guy did not throw the stick she might have clipped him from behind to say, hey, c'mon, throw the stick, in eagerness to play, and not ready yet for the game to end. Some dogs will get ramped up and get mouthy.

But if the bite was serious, then the dog probably was threatened by the man shaking the stick at her, and could only take action when he turned his head. Yes, one would want for a dog to go after the man as he was shaking the stick, and show courage. The nip or bite after the head is turned is not a sign of good character.

But that would hold true if you raised the dog from a pup and the dog had no reason to be fearful of men or strangers. We really do not know what this dog has been through. It may be just really weak nerves, and then you have to know what the triggers are, and be able to read the dog, and manage situations. This can be learned by training the dog regularly and building trust and confidence in each other. 

I would hate to see a dog put down because it is not schutzhund material.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I think that it is a horrible idea to send a dog off into a distant adoptive home with another female dog - knowing that she has the potential for dog aggression. Putting her into a home with a female without even having the dogs meet ?!? I am afraid this is a disaster waiting to happen.
If the two females get into it and someone gets bitten, it is going to be te last strike against this dog and she will be put down, considering her bit history.
IMO this is very wrong and even more stress and pressure on the poor dog.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

This dog is going to be freaked out if put on transport and handled by strangers. At least somebody with whom she is comfortable with should go along with her and introduce her properly to the new dog and family. She is not going to have many chances of adoption. 

As to biting family, FA dogs tend to be great with their own pack. Uncle Charlie from across the country and visiting once a year or once a month will not count as family in dog sense. Dog percieve family as people whom they interact with closely relatively frequently.People they love, they will recognize months later, which does not mean that they will accept again easily a person they are not very comfortable with. The new person may need re-introduction.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Hope the OP comes back and sees your posts, Rebel.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Anytime a dog reacts so negatively to an object or a motion, things must be done to desensitize the dog and create positive experiences to offset the negatives. Boyfriend had a pole used for a paint roller in his hands the other day and went into the part of the house that Renji lives (we have the bedrooms area gated off) and Renji took one look at the pole and slinked away. Clearly there was some negative event in his past involving a pole. I took the pole and showed it to Renji and had him sniff it. Tried to touch him with the pole, no dice. Had him sniff the pole again, then asked him to go under the pole several times to try and make a game. As he is used to me asking him to do strange things, his brain indeed went into a training/thinking mode and we ended the session with me rubbing the pole on his body and him no longer caring that the pole was there. Mind you, it was one session, but now he has one positive frame of reference and, in time, will have many, so that any negative associations he may have will be in the past. 

Since Renji clearly has some past histories I can only guess at, I have worked to get him used to me doing stupid things with objects such as banging things loudly, swinging them around, touching him with strange things, asking him to sniff unusual objects, etc. Does he still shrink and hide at some things? Yes, but for others, he has gotten much better. 

For your dog, we know sticks up high can be an issue. Working on this issue can easily turn into a game. Played enough, your dog will see you lift up a stick and immediately go into a playful state of mind. The next time a stranger decides to do that, she might not be playful but she likely will not turn aggressive/fearful. 

Would I have this dog put down? Honestly, heck no. I had to deal with something very similar. We worked hard and we continue to do so. Is it easy? Is it fun? No and no. Do you ever get to fully relax? Only at home with whom the dog sees as family. Do you want to give up some days? Yeeeeeup. When progress is made, is is that much more sweeter because you understood what you were up against? YES YES YES! Do you have to be brutally honest to decide whether or not you are up for this challenge? Yes. Is there shame in admitting you're in over your head? Not at all; safety is paramount, after all. Do you have to be extremely careful in where you place the dog and consider that euthanasia could be the only option? Yup.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

i had a gorgeous gsd , she adored me. i could do anything to her... yet i couldnt bring her in public as she was a biter... i got her as an 8 week old puppy.. socialized her,trained her, did everything right... what i couldnt fix was her GENETICS.. she was not abused, she was not mistreated. she had NO bad experiences with anyone when i got her at 8 weeks old.. she was just a genetic mess... she went after a few people in public - for NO reason.. i got a trainer, a behaviorist, and my vet involved.. i didnt get the social dog i wanted- i got a fearful aggressive dog who when out in public didnt think twice about biting anyone who came near.. in my home she was stellar.. i managed her the entire time i had her (ex got her in divorce) she rarely went out where people were- i micromanaged her for 10 years.. she never bit anyone again once i got the help i needed.. she hated going out in public, and loved being in her home/yard/woods with me instead where she was happiest... 

to rehome a dog who is a biter is not only not fair to the dog, but not fair to the next adopter... you can also be sued by the next adopter should the dog bite someone since the dog has a bite history.. if you got the dog from a rescue its your duty in your contract to return the dog to the rescue- NOT adopt the dog out on your own.. either keep the dog and keep her and humans safe or return her to the rescue. period...


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I dont get why people continuously post in this thread with the thoughts that I'm looking for a new home for her. Like I said previously, I contacted THE RESCUE where i got her and they found a new home for her. It is a great home for her and I think she'll excel. The rescue chose me over this home in the beginning because I was local and they did not know of her history.
The rescue tried to scare this couple away by telling them about her dog issues and her new found human issues, but they don't care. This is a retired couple and all they do is care and train for their dogs all day long. How can I compete with that while working 45 hours a day.
My intentions for this dog was that my girlfriend would take her while she was free on days I work, but that can't happen. I can't trust Zoey with anyone to be honest, without stressing out. It's tearing me down emotionally, i just want her to be happy.

My grandfather came over for dinner last night, and let me tell you she wasn't happy one bit. She was fine at first and then boom, she snapped. Barking growling lunging, basically just freaking out. She was fine after I gave them a proper introduction (I wasn't there at first) but only I can do that. Even then while she was in the kitchen, I had my eyes on her constantly and it was just too much. She's a great dog, but not a social one and has her faults, just really not the dog I was looking to rescue. 

This year hasn't been the greatest year for me, to be honest, it's flat our depressing. From the passing of my beloved Princess, moving twice in under a year, my best friend (bestfriends for 18 years) has been in a coma for the past two months from a severe car accident that happened while I was vacationing in Costa Rica the day of my 24th birthday with no way of knowing his outcome, an extremely stressful job and now this. I think it would be best for her to go to a better home. I'm just not qualified to handle this type of case in my situation i'm in.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Nickyb said:


> I dont get why people continuously post in this thread with the thoughts that I'm looking for a new home for her. Like I said previously, I contacted THE RESCUE where i got her and they found a new home for her. It is a great home for her and I think she'll excel. The rescue chose me over this home in the beginning because I was local and they did not know of her history.
> The rescue tried to scare this couple away by telling them about her dog issues and her new found human issues, but they don't care. This is a retired couple and all they do is care and train for their dogs all day long. How can I compete with that while working 45 hours a day.
> My intentions for this dog was that my girlfriend would take her while she was free on days I work, but that can't happen. I can't trust Zoey with anyone to be honest, without stressing out. It's tearing me down emotionally, i just want her to be happy.
> 
> ...


It is great that you could realize this and then find your dog as good home!


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Thanks, its been extremely hard to deal with, but this is my decision and i need to stand by it or else i'll regret it the rest of my life.
Thank you to everyone who gave me guidance.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It is a different home, we don't know whether is is a good home. A month ago the rescue thought the current home was a good home. The new one has a female dog and an older man in it, both of which the dog is sensitive to. She is moving there without having the opportunity to see how she reacts to the dog and the people. 

I certainly wish the poor dog the best. Hopefully the new owners will have the patience to work with her.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You and the rescue made the right decision. This is a very long topic, over 15 pages. I don't think some of those who are responding negatively now have read all the old posts or understand the situation. The couple who took her will provide the kind of home she needs and she'll be fine. I'm sorry to hear about all your other difficulties right now. I hope your friend recovers and that your life gets back on track. Good luck!


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## Lmilr (Jan 12, 2011)

Nickyb said:


> I dont get why people continuously post in this thread with the thoughts that I'm looking for a new home for her. Like I said previously, I contacted THE RESCUE where i got her and they found a new home for her. It is a great home for her and I think she'll excel. The rescue chose me over this home in the beginning because I was local and they did not know of her history.
> The rescue tried to scare this couple away by telling them about her dog issues and her new found human issues, but they don't care. This is a retired couple and all they do is care and train for their dogs all day long. How can I compete with that while working 45 hours a day.
> My intentions for this dog was that my girlfriend would take her while she was free on days I work, but that can't happen. I can't trust Zoey with anyone to be honest, without stressing out. It's tearing me down emotionally, i just want her to be happy.
> 
> ...


It definetely sounds like you are making the right decision. Even if it is extremely hard, hopefully everyone will be better off for it. :hug:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Nicky I think YOU are making the right decision, however, I'm not sure the rescue is making the right decision placing her with a couple she has never even met? 

Hope it works out


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I agree you made the right decision and I realize it was very difficult for you. Thank you for keeping us all posted.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Update: Zoey was transported to this so called great dog trainer down in NC on 7/6/12. Nothing was planned and a lot of tears were shed. I get a call back today saying the new owner doesn't want her. 

Zoey's being transported back up to me within a few days where she will stay forever.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

My GF and I have been, well, depressed. I did it because i wanted to give her a fair shot at a better life, but now she's mine. My heart dropped when I received the phone call, I honestly thought I would never see my baby again. We have some preparations to make but, i couldn't be happier.


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## rooandtree (May 13, 2012)

i hope everything works out! maybe she was just meant to be yours


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

It's good to hear your welcoming her home, I hope it all works out. Good luck.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Glad you are welcoming her back and already thinking about the preps you need to make.

My suggestion is to locate and get a behaviorist on board now so he/she is aware of the full background. With all the moves and changes your girl may have more issues to contend with and with the behaviorist involved, they'll be available to guide you in helping your girl to settle back in to home life.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sometimes you don't know what you got until its gone


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

I think it was meant to be also. Second week back, we will start some serious training and socialization. I have faith in her.

I talked to my buddies father a few days ago. He proceeded to tell me he over reacted and she barely broke the skin, it was more of a scratch. What I really think went down was that she play bit him and he freaked out, causing her to freak out and go after him.
Not that it matters, but it does make me a little less stressed out.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

In case someone hasn't said it already.. be confident, she will sense if you are nervous and feed off it.. you said already that you have faith in her.. great great start  

I aplaud you for taking her back, it's obvious you guys are meant for eachother and maybe just needed a trial and error to realize it! good luck and keep us updated on your progress


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would not assume it was a "play" bite. But under the circumstances, it would have been a warning bite. Get a trainer lined up.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

I hope that you and Zoey have a wonderful life together.

If you think she would benefit from a veterinary behaviorist consultation, you have one of the best facilities anywhere at Tufts with Dr. Nicholas Dodman. Foster Hospital for Small Animals: Behavior Veterinary Specialty — Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

Good luck and please keep us posted.


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank you mary jane, i would like to use the behaviorist as my next option since it's about an hour drive. I WILL however, fork up the cash to make her right at whatever cost needed.

I am going to start off with Mike Citro @ Baystate Kennel & Training Center | 9 Forms Way Middleton, MA 01949 and 1 day a week, drop her off at K-9 camp @ K-9 Top Performance | The best performance your dog can give. to work further on the dog issues. 

We are already to move forward with both trainers, they just need to actually MEET Zoey for a formal introduction before we start. There are a few other trainers that are excellent in my area, so i will have plenty of help in that area.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

So awesome that you are so prepared!! I'm very excited to see how everything works out!


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I am glad you are taking her back. In spite of what the people who have her now and their trainer said, the entire setup in the home did not sound right and the distance adoption complicated matters. You gave her a fair shot at it, you gave her a chance.

When she returns to you, she will be worse and more stressed out that when she left. I would focus on obedience training and build a rock solid obedience and the associated self confidence. I would back off from pushing socialization for a couple of months, until her obedience and your bond is solid. You may be dealing with a completely different dog in a couple of months. Pushing socialization and the associated failures drive the dog in a negative direction. I would muzzle her for her own safety around strangers for quite a while, until she is ready to re-start socialization.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RebelGSD said:


> I am glad you are taking her back. In spite of what the people who have her now and their trainer said, the entire setup in the home did not sound right and the distance adoption complicated matters. You gave her a fair shot at it, you gave her a chance.
> 
> When she returns to you, she will be worse and more stressed out that when she left. I would focus on obedience training and build a rock solid obedience and the associated self confidence. I would back off from pushing socialization for a couple of months, until her obedience and your bond is solid. You may be dealing with a completely different dog in a couple of months. Pushing socialization and the associated failures drive the dog in a negative direction. I would muzzle her for her own safety around strangers for quite a while, until she is ready to re-start socialization.


I agree, give her some time to adjust, and just work on some basic obedience type stuff. She is a young dog, and she may surprise you as she matures. But I agree with not pushing socialization at this point.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Wow, what great news! That is so wonderful of you to take her back and to be prepared to work with her - trainers and everything. She is one very lucky dog. And for your friend's father to tell you that that it was a more like a nip while playing. That does put a whole better light on the incident. She looks beautiful (I'm assuming that is her in your avator). Princess would be so proud of you!


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

I'm happy to hear you are giving it a try. I have a female with similar issues, and we have almost worked them out. She still needs watching, but you'll learn the signs and how to intervene. My girl is so loving and sweet it makes it worth it. If your's is anything like mine, she'll appreciate you taking over when things stress her out.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I get a call back today saying the new owner doesn't want her.


Gosh there's a shock...


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## Nickyb (Jul 11, 2011)

Thank you for the input, I will hold off on the k-9 camp for a bit.... I will keep her muzzled around mostly everyone, except my GF and immediate family. Not only for her, but to lower my stress levels and not have to worry about those jaws clenching down on something.

Is it sad that I can't WAIT to wake up to her laying on top of me, staring at me with her snout in my eye socket again?
Call me crazy


Also, what are your thought's on E-collars? Her foster home (before I got her) used the E-collar and she responded beautifully with it.

Yes thats Zoey :wub: in my Ava. Quick instagram snapshot of her.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Use of the e-collar for agression and fear issues can back fire and make the dog much worse. The instructions that comes with e-collars very clearly states that they are not intended for use with dogs that are aggressive or fearful. Since that seems to be Zoey's problem, I wouldn't use one on her. You might want to try "counter conditioning", I came across that in another thread on this training forum.
 OP: maureen mickel what is going on with my dog
“Yes things are going pretty well actually. She hasnt lunged at anyone yet since ive been doing counter conditioning, must be the age i guess but i dont want it getting worse so im putting a stop to it in a positive way! My theory seems to be correct so far, she will only lunge at people that dont greet her so i go over to the side of the side walk and praise her + click and treat for looking calmly at them! Thanks for all the suggestions guys! Chelle, i sugest you do the same, ifyou wnt more info on it ill gladly send you some :] “ You could send her a pm. Also ask others on this forum. Of course, you're counting the days until Zoey comes - and she doesn't know - she will be wild with joy!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd want to how _how _they used it. 
If they used it like a bandaid - shock her when she's doing something they didn't want/like - then no.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

The e-collar can be an excellent training tool in the right hands. You will need a qualified trainer to teach you how to use it. It is not about zapping the dog when it misbehaves.
Lou Castle is a ember of this board, check out his web page and you can also contact him.

I would get a very strong obedience on the dog, Bh level. As you connectvwith her better and she relies on you more her behavior could improve significantly. Every failure reinforces the behavior.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It is not about zapping the dog when it misbehaves.


Most folks I ever talk to who used it, use it this way.


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## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

I just read this whole thread and I have to say to Nicky: I understand the roller coaster. Nothing prepares us for an out of control dog. I've had two wonderful GSD (still do have one that will be 15 in Sept), then I got this wild one and it was like nothing I've ever dealt with. I've been up and down the same emotional whirlwind, though I decided awhile back that I would not try to rehome the young, wild, hyperactive, fear aggressive dog that I brought home in December. I've never worked so hard with a dog in my entire life, and sometimes it's exhausting. I'm a very active person with a lot of interests that I cannot just give up, but with some preparation, I have found ways to live my own life and yet deal with my nutty dog. When people come over, she now has a basement kennel to go in (which she loves), along with an outdoor kennel (she still hates the outdoor kennel, so it's small increments she's in it until she realizes I'm not abandoning her to it). When it's me, her and my older dog alone here (and I work from home so it's often), she's a happy dog. Faithfully training with her *every single night* has her more focused on me and I can even sometimes talk her down from reactions by simply telling her to focus (she knows that means to look at me and sit). Six months later, I've found a kennel that will work with FA dogs, so I can even go on weekend trips after we've spent some time (weeks? months?) getting her acclimated. I, too, fear the financial burden of a behaviorist, especially now that I know my job is being outsourced in January, but I'm going to have to find a way as my next step. I can honestly say, in hindsight, that it has taken my dog months to truly bond to me and trust me. I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but once it's on our laps - it is what it is. I'm learning to take a deep breath and slow down when it comes to this dog. I've also learned to forgive myself for the mistakes I've made (and trust me, I've made some), because I'm being trained, too, and I had no clue what to do. 

If it's what you choose to do, and it sounds like it is, hang in there.


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## Judykaye (Feb 20, 2007)

I have a friend who uses a trainer from the Boston area. If you would like I can get the name for you.


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