# Seeking personal info on Germ. Show lines



## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi Everyone,

I would like to get peoples personal experience and opinions with German show lines that they own or have owned previously.

In particular I am looking for information on their natural protection instinct and display of it.

I am concerned because I hear from numerous people that show lines will not be naturally protective, they are not as smart, need more training than working lines, etc.

I basically want a dog who will be fit for a family with kids, smart, easy to train, healthy, and has natural protective qualities that doesn't need training for (what I mean by that is if someone breaks in to the home the dog will bite if need be).

I don't want a working line dog because I have a family and won't have time to go to lots of training, do SCH, or keep the dog otherwise occupied.

Sorry for the long post, I hope this makes sense.

Thank you,
czel


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> (what I mean by that is if someone breaks in to the home the dog will bite if need be).


I need to state up front that this is something that NEEDS to be trained. You can't just expect the dog to do it. And even if you train the dog to bite, the dog may not actually engage an intruder.

I'll let somebody else bring up the liability aspect.

If you don't have time to do "lots of training" you don't have time for a German Shepherd Dog :-/

GSDs, regardless of line, require time and training, and they will not protect you just because you love them a lot.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Natural Protection Instinct comes down to the individual dog. I've met plenty of German Showlines (albeit almost always males IME) who are perfectly nasty in their guard work. The good ones I have known have had strong defensive instincts. And there are some that don't have a protective instinct at all. But a good dog of sound temperament will assess the situation and act accordingly- regardless of line. This of course cannot be guaranteed in a puppy because you don't really know how these traits will really be until the dog matures. 

For competition work, higher level obedience, etc. I think you could generalize that it is more difficult to achieve high level success with a Showline. Workinglines are more DRIVEN than showlines. Do not mistake this for energy. Showlines have the possibility to be every bit as energetic and needing of physical outlets as a workingline shepherd. They just are not as likely to need a job. I woudl say though that if you know you don't have the time for training a GSD may not be for you. They do require a lot of time and are not generally very independent dogs content to just hang around the house. 

I would also add that it is highly unlikely that unless properly trained in protection the average family pet (of any line) will bite someone who breaks into the house. Bark? Sure. Attempt to scare an intruder? Probably. Actually engage an intruder and bite them? No. And the reality is also that anyone who comes into your house despite the barking dog will probably just shoot or poison the dog anyway. My workingline protection trained dogs probably wouldn't bite someone coming into the house...and truthfully I wouldn't expect them to. Their job is to alert...my job is to take care of the threat.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Don't get a German Shepherd Dog if you won't have the commitment to give them the time, attention and challenges they need. Get a nice easy-going mutt who equally deserves a good home.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

I had a shelter GSD pup, God knows only from which lines (was black and tan but not a blanket one), who lived until 10 and he was super protective and there was an incident at our home one day where we needed his protection help and sure enough he chased the intruder, bit there leg, and helped us. He was never trained in any protection work, all the training was done at home for just general/basic commands. He was fantastic.

He had lots of health issues all his life which cost us tons in medical bills so now we want a pup from good healthy lines that hopefully we won't have to spend as much on in vet bills.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

As far as time commitment, we have enough time to take care of a dog, and do basic training, go on hikes with, etc. But I don't want to spend time in a SCH club, training for competitions, do agility, etc. I don't think I need to or have to in order to raise a happy GSD pup.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

you miss the point. A GSD is a working dog, bred to working standards, or at least should be. They should have drive, they should have good temperment and should be athletic and have energy.

If you don't have time to train a dog, you certainly don't have time for a GSD. you don't need to do agility, you don't need to do schutzhund, but you do need to do something.

If you're wanting a dog that doesn't need interaction, training, and work everyday, you should be looking at a breed other than a GSD.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have a male German show line. Moderate drive, HIGH defense, but high threshold. I am training him for SchH but we also do different types of protection work (more practical, like personal protection but not quite the same) and that actually suits him better (pun intended). But like I said, he has a pretty high threshold, so he is actually my safest dog, the LEAST likely to react, and he only goes into defense 1) when I tell him to and 2) when there is actually a threat present. He will not eat strangers that want to pet him or guests that come into my home. IMO this is not the norm for German show lines. I got started in this breed in German show lines and in my experience they generally have decent drive BUT are lacking in nerve and often have too low of a threshold (for me, at least). Many seem to do very well even in SchH or protection sports until they mature and don't have the drive and nerve to really carry through, or they are mainly "prey" dogs and don't have enough natural defense or fight to really work in protection.

But, like the others have said, most GSDs will alert bark for you, and IMO most times I need "protection" from my dog, all I really need is some very solid obedience. People on the street see an adult GSD coming their way and cross the street when they see the dog heeling very precisely and doing exactly what I say. Of all my GSDs, people are most frightened of the one that has the least drive and weakest nerve, but they don't know that.

I guess I don't understand wanting a dog to protect your life with his and actually engage an intruder but not having time to actually train it? Sounds like a law suit waiting to happen...

What a lot of people call "protection" is really the dog being reactive out of fear/insecurity and the "fight or flight" response kicking in to save his own butt. To me, it's just not fair to put a dog in that situation, with no training, no work put into the dog to build his confidence and show him that HE can control and diffuse a threatening person. It is first of all having a dog that possesses the drive and nerve genetically, and THEN showing the dog how to express those traits in a controlled, confident manner.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

> I have a family and won't have time to go to lots of training, do SCH, or keep the dog otherwise occupied.


I think it was this comment that had people concerned. There is nothing worse than an untrained, bored GSD. And dangerous as well.



> I am concerned because I hear from numerous people that show lines will not be naturally protective, they are not as smart, need more training than working lines, etc.


I would disagree but I am basing that on my dog.
Gunner is an American Showline. Just as smart as any GSD line, very loyal, picked up training very easily and was eager to learn and naturally protective.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi Liesje,

No I don't want a dog to eat visitors or strangers. I just want one who knows the difference between welcomed/good visitors or danger.

Thank you for sharing. Your post was very helpful.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you encourage "protectiveness" based on a dog's insecurity, then that is what you get, a dog that just might eat a stranger. If you have no experience or training with protection work, then how will you know fear based reactions from appropriate protective instincts? Too often people come on a board like this boasting about how their 6 month old dog (a baby!) growled and hackled and chased off a stranger that the person just assumed was up to no good. To me that is very sad, encouraging stuff like that without putting in any effort to ensure that the dog is actually working from a confident state of mind and showing him how to use his own power rather than letting him be pressured into a "fight" reaction. Also, good dogs will naturally protect without training (but like I said, how would you know?) but need the training to control it. In SchH you can't do any titles without a BH (obedience and temperament test) and you cannot ever compete in the protection phase without also completing the obedience phase. I do a different style of protection training/titles and the same is true, dog must first pass and obedience test, and then it can do the protection test but only after completing the obedience phase at that level. Just something to keep in mind.

This is just generally speaking, not unique to show line dogs or owners.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Liesje, thank you, that is a lot to think about. I appreciate your time and advice.


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

Wow, where is Dfrost and Ladylaw when you need them. I do believe they would be thinking the same thing I am rightnow. Some people amaze me...


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

I have a WGSL male. He is VERY alert to his surroundings and will bark if anyone is near our property. He will check out any strange noises he hears while at home, at night, etc. He senses anything that is going on that is different from the routine! He certainly is intimidating to people because of his appearance and how he carries himself. I don't know if he would bite anyone if we were in danger b/c it hasn't happened yet! Not likely though... 

I think unless you are planning on doing actual protection training this is what you MIGHT end up with.
Be realistic about the amount of time you have to work with and exercise your dog every day. Talk to reputable breeders about what your expectations are and please understand that this will be a companion first and foremost!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Nick, what do you mean by that comment? Can you share your thoughts?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Just a related question about GSD's.

Should we EXPECT any GSD to be at least somewhat protective of it's family?

Now I realize that not all of them WILL posses this ability, but based on how I read the standard; we sholud expect them all to have this built into their genes.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

codmaster said:


> Just a related question about GSD's.
> 
> Should we EXPECT any GSD to be at least somewhat protective of it's family?
> 
> Now I realize that not all of them WILL posses this ability, but based on how I read the standard; we sholud expect them all to have this built into their genes.


I don't expect a dog to be protective of me, no. 

My dog: 
Weighs 75lb
Has basically no pre-frontal cortex
Has never been in a fight in his life
His biggest weapon is teeth.

I:
Weigh 140lb
Have a highly developed pre-frontal cortex
Have spent a few years as an amateur boxer
Own a very nice shotgun.

Advantage: me. His job is to bark and look scary.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Just a related question about GSD's.
> 
> Should we EXPECT any GSD to be at least somewhat protective of it's family?
> 
> Now I realize that not all of them WILL posses this ability, but based on how I read the standard; we sholud expect them all to have this built into their genes.


Ideally, yes I believe we should expect this. But, ideally, we also expect the breed to be sound in temperament, possess drive and nerve for work, be correct size and structure to be an agile working dog, free of crippling health problems, etc, etc.... So ideally, yes, but realistically....unfortunately no. People don't breed for it so we can't expect it to be built into their genes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also to the OP, I'm *not* saying don't get a shepherd or don't get a German show line, I'm just saying to really think about what it is you want and what it is you are prepared to have. Also I would go out and meet as many GSDs as possible, find the ones you like _in person_ and not just based on what a web site or someone like me is telling you, and go from there.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I expect any German Shepherd that I would breed to engage a person if they broke into my house...especially if they were strangers. And they don't need training to do that as they are defending their territory and home. Why wouldn't I expect that??? This is part of what the dog is supposed to be!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I don't expect a dog to be protective of me, no.
> My dog:
> Weighs 75lb
> Has basically no pre-frontal cortex
> ...


Interesting thought!

Actually in many instances the big advantage a dog has over a human in an altercation is psychological - many if not most peaople are afraid of a big aggressive dog. Partly because a person will often expect another person to 'fight fair' - i.e. not hit them when they are down, or maybe not kick in the groin or stick a finger in their eye, or bite them, etc. whereas a dog will do "anything" and "fight to the death".

This is not always true of course, but most non street fighters will believe it. (OTOH I always would go into a fight 9real fight0 just assuming that I would do anything to win with no Marquis of Queensberry assumptions.

That is why one cop with a dog can control a crowd MUCH better than 2 cops w/o one!

I would certainly expect my dog (3 yo male GSD) to fight to protect me and our family (not by himself however - we would be fighting together if need be).

Would you expect a GSD to protect his flock (herding dog) against a wolf or bear or something similar or is that the human shepherd's job?

I think that the standard has some words in it to sort of define this expectation of the GSD.

just sort of curious of what most people's expectation would be.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Would you expect a GSD to protect his flock (herding dog) against a wolf or bear or something similar or is that the human shepherd's job?


I think traditionally, this is more the job of the LGD (livestock guardian dog). They are typically raised with the livestock and more bonded to them, whereas the GSD answers to the shepherd (human).


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

cliffson1 said:


> I expect any German Shepherd that I would breed to engage a person if they broke into my house...especially if they were strangers. And they don't need training to do that as they are defending their territory and home. Why wouldn't I expect that??? This is part of what the dog is supposed to be!!


Cliff... how is a dog, without training or being given a command, supposed to know the difference between someone breaking into the house and a harmless stranger?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Liesje said:


> I think traditionally, this is more the job of the LGD (livestock guardian dog). They are typically raised with the livestock and more bonded to them, whereas the GSD answers to the shepherd (human).


Does that mean thet the owner would have GSD's running around keeping the sheep in the field and that there would be other dogs out with them doing the protection stuff/ I.E. Komondor's or some such dog breed?

Never thought of that.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

we had a young male returned to us...for doing *exactly that.*
short sory:*stranger ran in home yelling and play fighting with college daughter.....young male 13mos old, *immediately* attacked stranger and bit his chest and arm.*
Daughter was upset and threatened to live in dorm.....father decided to return young dog. Happily we took him back.....*good dog!*


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

codmaster said:


> I would certainly expect my dog (3 yo male GSD) to fight to protect me and our family (not by himself however - we would be fighting together if need be).
> 
> Would you expect a GSD to protect his flock (herding dog) against a wolf or bear or something similar or is that the human shepherd's job?
> 
> ...



I guess I should re-phrase. I think a well-bred GSD should be inclined to be protective. It is, after all, part of what they were originally bred for. That said, we live in a very different world than Captain Max did over 100 years ago, and my dogs are my kids. For those reasons and the reasons I listed above, I would not expect or want them to protect me. Should a well-bred GSD be protective? Yes. Would I want my dog to engage a criminal that probably has a gun? No.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

BTW...dog was owned by a Police officer....he was very happy with the dog's response. (but also is a little concerned with daughters friends coming in & out all hours)...and...does NOT want daughter to live in dorm.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Babs and Jenna's sire was all German Showline, and their dam had some German showline, and the rest American showline.

At eight months old, while out with them at night, I was accosted by a drunk crazy guy who lunged at me. Both girls flew barking into his face, backed him up, and he turned and without a word took off. 

Rush's dam was German showline, his sire was a mixture of working lines and American lines. One night after being a perfect gentleman to people of all sorts, sizes, and ages at a street fair, I was talking to a drunk man that I knew but he did not (my brother in law). The man clapped his hands loud right over the dog's head. Rush backed a little and looked up to see what it was, this was not being timid at all, he just wanted to see what he was dealing with, and if there was a reason to be concerned. Rush was the dog though that needed two bitches in kennels in front of him to protect him from the burglars. He would go with them. My sub-contractor could go right into the kennel with him, even if I was not there. He liked people, and never showed any fear or aggressive behavior, nor protective behavior -- not toward humans. 

Babs is my guard dog at home, she is the one that I have in with me when strangers or sub-contractors come over. She is fairly low energy, but has good obedience skills. She does not like sub-contractors, but sits and watches them and I trust her completely. She gives the impression that she will chew your leg off for the fun of it. And she is just the sweetest little thing. Very alert, very obedient, very quiet.

Dubya was all German showline. He was another, that sub-contractors could go right into his kennel, until the concrete man teased him terribly (they made him jump up and down in his kennel until he was hitting his head on the six foot fence, the next day he was paralyzed in the back end; I was at work when the concrete guys were there, and found out months later what happened). He never showed any major protective qualities. He let the bitches do that. 

Odessa is all German Showline. She has a schutzhund I, though I have not worked her at all yet. She has been great with people at the airport, at the vets' offices, me with her puppies, my friend, my parents. And did not have any trouble with the Amerigas man coming in to light the furnace, though I was right there. I have not seen any serious protectiveness going on, but I have not put her in any situation where it would be necessary either. 

What I find is that the shepherd's bark is really enough to keep most people at bay. If someone is willing to continue regardless to hearing a GSD barking, the chances are that they probably have a gun and will shoot the dog if necessary. As a deterrent, GSDs are great for their size, their upright ears and alert expression, and their voice. That is all I want or need. 

Having a dog that is alert and willing to obey commands while in the presence of a stranger, in the home or outside of the home, is very different than a dog who will bark and lunge and bite strangers -- those dogs are often fearful to the point of aggression, unless someone has trained them to act that way toward people. 

I also find that people tend to be even more leery of a quiet dog that obeys simple commands, than they are a dog that is jumping around and barking. That is why I like Babsy so much. People think she is a trained attack dog, LOL!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Does that mean thet the owner would have GSD's running around keeping the sheep in the field and that there would be other dogs out with them doing the protection stuff/ I.E. Komondor's or some such dog breed?
> 
> Never thought of that.


I think so.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

selzer said:


> I also find that people tend to be even more leery of a quiet dog that obeys simple commands, than they are a dog that is jumping around and barking. That is why I like Babsy so much. People think she is a trained attack dog, LOL!


Absolutely agree with that. Something like this actually happened to me tonight. 

I was walking Lucy a few hours ago around the park and a cop came up to me just to let me know I couldn't walk through at this time. Something about the park being closed after the sun goes down... no big deal. 

He gets out of the car and asks if he can meet the dog. I said sure, lucy loves everyone and always wants to meet a stranger. The cop was pretty cool about everything and we started talking for a little bit. 

I had lucy in a sit,stay right by my side. As we were talking, i kept seeing the cop give that hesitant look down in the corner of his eye at lucy just to make sure she was still there. You could tell he was a little nervous about the calm stare she was giving just being there.

People really underestimate the calmness of an obedient and self assured german shepherd. Like you said, it really can be just as intimidating as a fearful dog jumping, pulling, and barking at anything they don't know.... just without the stress for us as owners.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I expect any German Shepherd that I would breed to engage a person if they broke into my house...especially if they were strangers. And they don't need training to do that as they are defending their territory and home. Why wouldn't I expect that??? This is part of what the dog is supposed to be!!


I agree with Cliffson1; that's what my expectation is. 

I am not a GSD expert since I had only one before but my understanding about what made the breed so special was the fact that they were so smart, able to tell a friend from foe, great family companions and protectors. 

But maybe that's what a GSD was like before. I know my unknown bloodline rescue pup was like this too.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

I wrote and article about this on my website
A few thoughts - Smokey German Shepherds
some of the basic thoughts have been touched on from various training websites. I just put it in my own words (from my mind) and posted the whole thing for people to consider. basically to discourage someone from thinking they are buying a tough as nails super duper guard dog extreme when in reality that requires years of training at thousands of dollars in cost


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> I expect any German Shepherd that I would breed to engage a person if they broke into my house...especially if they were strangers. And they don't need training to do that as they are defending their territory and home. Why wouldn't I expect that??? This is part of what the dog is supposed to be!!


I would expect this too, but how do you know unless something happens? I tend to think, based on other behaviors, that Max would do this. I just don't know for sure since this ability hasn't been tested ( thank 
goodness)! So how do you evaluate this?
I've read a lot of posts on this site where people did NOT feel their GSD would be protective at such times and it makes me think if you want that behavior to happen for sure you would need to train for it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If the OP is not already interested in certain German show line dogs/breeders, I would encourage them to re-consider working lines. The original post seems to imply that working lines are "too much dog" for an active family. My experience has been that my two working line dogs are actually my best house pets. They have an "off switch". I feel most connected to my show line dog, but admittedly he's a bit more hyper, takes longer to settle down in the house.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Regardless of show line or working line both require exercise. So I don't really think show line equals less work The only one of my dogs that has been in a threatening situation was Max my showline. We had taken the ferry back to Bar Harbour from NS and I was staying in a motel that I don't usually stay at and he flew to the door barking -he wouldn't go back to sleep just kept pacing back and forth whining. I finally thought that he had to go out so I got up and when I opened the door there was an intoxicated man standing there and he said keep that dog away from me-Max never bit he didn't have to He knew someone was there who shouldn't have been


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Liesje said:


> If the OP is not already interested in certain German show line dogs/breeders, I would encourage them to re-consider working lines. The original post seems to imply that working lines are "too much dog" for an active family. My experience has been that my two working line dogs are actually my best house pets. They have an "off switch". I feel most connected to my show line dog, but admittedly he's a bit more hyper, takes longer to settle down in the house.


Hi again,

The problem I hear with working lines is that they really need to work. It's one thing for us, an active family, to have a dog to share our lives with but I am concerned that they need to be doing SCH, or some other routines/sports, in order to be calm at home. Also I hear they are too dominating and can be a risk with kids. 

I have seen some dogs from WL but they are already a finished product and older with owners who have done SCH. For me SCH is not an option - no clubs close by, too much time, and don't personally want to do it.

I just want a family dog who will be protective. Sorry for repeating myself but I did have that before with my other GSD. I just didn't know that know it seems almost impossible to find it in another one .


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

Showline dogs can have extreme drives like the working lines. My SL required (as in not optional), 30-60 minutes of full sprint ball play every night when I got home from work. It gradually tapered off at 5 years old, and he still brought the ball to me nightly at 9 years old. I had to trade the tennis ball for a special frisbee that could fly over 100 yards because my throwing arm couldn't handle the exercise, even with a "chuck-it". 

A 1 mile walk would earn me a ball in my lap when we got home, the walk did virtually nothing to tire him out. 

Protection: trained 15 mostly SL, a couple WL, a couple Malinois, couple Dutch... none of them were untrainable. One shy SL female, but I attributed that to a very spoiled, possibly lazy family life, she eventually came around. 

All dogs need training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

4evrlove said:


> Hi again,
> 
> The problem I hear with working lines is that they really need to work. It's one thing for us, an active family, to have a dog to share our lives with but I am concerned that they need to be doing SCH, or some other routines/sports, in order to be calm at home. Also I hear they are too dominating and can be a risk with kids.
> 
> ...


Well, with all due respect a German shepherd dog in general is a working dog and needs "work", even if that is just daily exercise and mental stimulation like training of *some* sort.

Show lines are bred primarily for show. They are not specifically bred to be LESS energetic or less drivey than any other line, but since they are bred primarily for show, there is a huge spectrum of drive, energy, and temperament. Most of the nice show lines I've seen actually have plenty of drive but lack the soundness in nerves to back it up, and many are "unsettled", meaning they don't necessarily have an on/off switch and can act a bit neurotic, can't settle in the house, whine/spin/pace, etc.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Harmless strngers don't break into your house...harmless strangers don't elicit fear from you when they break into your house if you are home. Discernment is a valuable trait of the breed much like genetic obedience, that when present is unmistakable. The whole concept of GS breeding and ownership has changed so much that many people donot have a clue about what discernment traits are, much less what the capabilities are. The breed is supposed to be capable of being a manstopper, AND should have the discernment to use this capability judiciously. Of course with all the new expert breeders in the breed who don't breed for these traits, or even don't approve of these traits, it is somewhat diffcult to find these dogs unless you know the breeders/dogs.
Still, these are necessary traits for the dog to perform many of the tasks that made it worthy.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Harmless strngers don't break into your house...harmless strangers don't elicit fear from you when they break into your house if you are home. Discernment is a valuable trait of the breed much like genetic obedience, that when present is unmistakable. The whole concept of GS breeding and ownership has changed so much that many people donot have a clue about what discernment traits are, much less what the capabilities are. The breed is supposed to be capable of being a manstopper, AND should have the discernment to use this capability judiciously. Of course with all the new expert breeders in the breed who don't breed for these traits, or even don't approve of these traits, it is somewhat diffcult to find these dogs unless you know the breeders/dogs.
> Still, these are necessary traits for the dog to perform many of the tasks that made it worthy.


This is interesting to me. I have noticed that if we are in the house and hear something "unusual" Max will often woof and then look to me to see MY reaction before getting up and checking on things. When someone approaches the house that he doesn't know he carries on (barks aggressively). If he knows them, nothing but the occasional "hey someone's out there" bark. He seems protective, but again, how would I know that he would physically protect me if something happened?


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Harmless strngers don't break into your house...harmless strangers don't elicit fear from you when they break into your house if you are home. Discernment is a valuable trait of the breed much like genetic obedience, that when present is unmistakable. The whole concept of GS breeding and ownership has changed so much that many people donot have a clue about what discernment traits are, much less what the capabilities are. The breed is supposed to be capable of being a manstopper, AND should have the discernment to use this capability judiciously. Of course with all the new expert breeders in the breed who don't breed for these traits, or even don't approve of these traits, it is somewhat diffcult to find these dogs unless you know the breeders/dogs.
> Still, these are necessary traits for the dog to perform many of the tasks that made it worthy.


I 100% agree with you. In my mind that is what I think a GSD should be like. Ok, so which lines produce these type of dogs?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think it is important not to want a German Shepherd that is not too much like a German Shepherd! But, with all the breeding of different types of German Shepherds one can get the looks without the insides in many places. There can be extremes found in all the traits of the breed also in unbalanced breedings.

I have seldom had a GSD puppy of any lines that was not pain in the butt active! i can say that I have found rescue to be good place to find a German Shepherd that fit a certain bill for me. The little bit older dog shows what and who it is.

If one does want a truley protective dog, then you have to be able to step up to the care and training of that type of dog. I have known a number of people who wanted a good protective GSD and then unwanted it pretty fast!

Finding a dog with solid nerves is most important. In the breed, problems with nerves can certainly be found without looking toO hard or far!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with Cliff, the problem is what the breed should be and what it is has become very different, so we can no longer look at dogs from any line and assume that it will be of sound nerve and naturally protective. Also with today's overly litigious society we have to be careful because honestly the dog* I want* might be the dog that gets me sued. I just purchased a home and have to pay a higher premium on home owner's insurance because I have two GSDs in the home (mutt doesn't matter).


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I just purchased a home and have to pay a higher premium on home owner's insurance because I have two GSDs in the home (mutt doesn't matter).


Yep, they got me for that too. I am paying higher premiums also.

I understand that protective can be a liability, however, I think what I am saying and Cliffson1 is saying is that these dogs should be able to discern danger and then react. In this situation no one can sue you for protecting yourself. And if they do well then the I'll let the insurance company who charges me a higher premium deal with it on my behalf.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

This is an interesting thread. My pup is showline and I really didn't have any preconceived notions about that. I've had some experience with American and Working lines. At 14 weeks, my pup is responsive, he retrieves, he seems a bit drivey ..chasing ducks and squirrels etc but he is easily diverted. He is very clever and affectionate but not a cuddler. I''d have to say, if pressed, that he seems mellower and more people focused than the working lines that I've had limited experience with but that may be due to environment and early socialization.

I am very happy with him. As far as protection goes, he's already an imposing figure with a quality of "watchfulness" that I think is quite a deterrent to some of the skeevy characters in my mixed urban neighborhood.

Someone on this forum made the point that being a dog in an active family can be challenging and fulfilling for a working dog. I think that really making a dog a valued and trusted family member with boundaries and responsibilities is quite the job for dog and owner. Pup goes everywhere that he possibly can go with us--the grocery store, the pet store, the car dealership. We walk him through school zones and work on his focus. When we cook, he's on a bed in the kitchen door. When he can't go with us, we crate or bribe my son to dogsit. He's in two puppy classes at different facilities. All of this training and attention now is exhausting for him (and me) but I want a dog that can go out for coffee or be left happily at home as an adult.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I too own dogs that might bite someone. But the dog that is most likely to is probably my one from lines not known for protectiveness or courage to fight, but also not of great nerve structure. 

The stronger dogs also fortunately has solid nerves and courage. They are not spurred into self protection easily. But they will likely protect myself or my stuff. I have seen a lot of GSDs that put up a show of barking and challenging. Their owners think that the dog is protective of them and their stuff. More likely the dog is worried and is being protective of itself in these instances. It is garnering enough support from owner or familiar surroundings to mount an effort to scare a perceived threat away. 

I don't know how dogs "think". But my dogs who might bite you for a real threat are more likely to not be concerned about people. But let the person do something hinky or try to get into my things and the dog is going to act like "well, you so-and-so, you should not be doing that!". These dogs are calm, sure and able to "think" about what is happening! Good nerves are critical in a dog who can really serve. 

German Shepherds are smart and powerful. They have drive and abilities that lend themselves to working. A lay about "easy" dog does not necessarily have what the breed is supposed to have. We can not have our cake and eat it too. 

But, I find them to be the best companions ever. They do super in a family and can go anywhere and do about anything, if you have the time and energy to put into them. This probably goes to any dog though. My friend's Yorkie who has been allowed a laid back home existence is a terror and difficult to own... bites too!!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I do not necessarily equate a strong dog with a lot of drive. Many people think hard and strong in terms of dogs means drive. Also, you can't evaluate what your dog will do in a real situation in normal ownership setups. Partially because a good dog with discernment will let the situation drive his response. Your body language becomes elevated, angry, fearful, and their discernment should kick in. A good mother dog will not let a nonfamily member approach her litter during the first 2-3 weeks. That's discernment...after that then maby very familar friends/relatives are Okay. How do they know???Its innate. I good German shepherd is a dog of joy in my eyes.LOL


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> Their job is to alert...my job is to take care of the threat.


THIS!!!!!

Someone else posted that a human has an advantage because a human might have a GUN. Personally, I think it is MY responsbility to protect my dogs. They alert me to potential danger, and then it is my job to act on it.

I have two "rescue line"  GSDs and they are naturally protective. HOWEVER, I would never encourage anything other than an alert bark (and perhaps looking scary). 

(P.S. I do work for a personal injury law firm and know what could happen to me & my dogs if I encourage actual attacks/bites!)

A human with a gun is going to win vs. a dog just about every time. IMO, what we should be after is an "alarm system" not an attack squad. There are many breeds of dog that will alert to potential danger. If the OP is interested in a GSD for more reasons than just protectiveness... I think they should continue their research. If protectiveness is the only motivating factor well... maybe not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It always makes me nervous when I hear that a person wants a dog that will be protective of the home and family. But then eighteen months later, he is facing a lawsuit because his puppy protected his son from a young comrad. You have kids. Kids sometimes walk right into friends' homes. They sometimes walk right up to a dog they have met several times before and do things they do with other freinds' dogs or their own dogs. 

You really cannot get that level of protectiveness, without a good amount of risk, without a large amount of bonding and training and trusting the dog. You have to start out with a dog with great nerves, and good intelligence/discernment -- they ARE found in lines other than working lines too. And then you have to put the time in, you have to train and socialize the dog. You also have to let the dog grow up, you cannot expect an six month old puppy to be protective. 

Your best bet is to get a GSD that matches your family well. And the fact that you have one will deter most would be assailants. Train and socialize your dog to be an excellent companion and pet. I would not encourage protection training, because you have already intimated that you do not have the time to put into that level of training. 

If you are really feeling nervous about where you live and your family's safety, get an alarm system, move to a nicer neighborhood, take self-defense courses, and learn safer approaches to every day situations.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi Selzer,

Thank you for your post. I think the problem is that besides the dog people have to be responsible too. Just because the dog is protective it doesn't mean it will bite/attack a harmless person or child. If the dog is too protective than the owner should be responsible and put the dog away when guests/children come over. But that too me shows a dog who is not thinking and assessing rather just reacting to anything that moves. Which again is not what a GSD used to be at least in my eyes or opinion.

When my other dog was alive (I have 2 kids) he would never display nothing but love and acceptance to anyone who entered the house invited and even unannounced (like neighbors kids). He would play with them, lick them, chase ball for them, and just lay down next to them. Occasionally when the UPS/Fedex man arrived he did growl and bark. However, the one night when someone came in to the yard in hopes to get in to the house he did chase him (we have a doggy door), bite him, and perhaps saved us from a huge nightmare. By the way I also have a gardner and a pool guy who come weekly and he never once tried to go after them.

That to me is what a GSD should be - smart, discerning, loving, protective, a family member!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is true that a strong dog does not necessarily have to have "a lot" of drive. A German Shepherd should have enough drive to work long, long hours. I consider that a fair amount of drive.

This again is something I have a hard time figuring out what people mean by it. I have a friend overwhelmed by her pup with so much drive she can hardly live with it. One of the calmest GSD pups I have ever seen! 

Interesting on protecting the kids. My female was once out with my son and and friends. She liked kids. One of the boys pulled back a fist and aimed at my son's face. She jumped straight up in the air in front of him and snapped her teeth together. Not bared teeth or showing extreme aggression. The message was tempered to "kidness" level. Judgement on the dog's part. The kid was impressed also!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

4evrlove said:


> The problem I hear with working lines is that they really need to work. It's one thing for us, an active family, to have a dog to share our lives with but I am concerned that they need to be doing SCH, or some other routines/sports, in order to be calm at home. Also I hear they are too dominating and can be a risk with kids.


As Lies pointed out, "work" does not have to be Schutzhund, it can be regular mental stimulation and physical exercise, and should definitely include training. 

I currently have a show line and a working line. They are both energetic, with good drives, and will go, go, go at the park, but they're both just fine hanging around the house. They turn on, and then they turn off, neither of them are hyper or drive us crazy at home. The main difference between them is that my working line girl has lower thresholds and more suspicion than my show line boy, but she's also much younger. His thresholds were more like hers when he was her age, but he's mellowed a lot since then, and I expect that she will too as she matures. She turned 2 in November, he's 5-1/2. 

The suspicion is new for me, Keefer has always been very accepting of new people (let's face it - he's an attention *****!) but she's been in training since we got her at 10 weeks old, either on my own at home, in a class (she's taken 5 so far and does extremely well in that environment) or working with a private trainer (for around 6 months last year), and even when we're not formally training I'm constantly getting her out places and working with her casually around lots of different distractions. She is amazingly smart and focused, very intense, and extremely athletic and agile. I do plan on entering her in agility and/or flyball classes for fun because I know she'd have a blast and probably do very well. Hopefully her slow old handler can keep up. :help: 

Even when we got Halo I wasn't completely sure that we'd be able to handle a working line and that she wouldn't be "too much dog" for us. I thought long and hard about it, and we discussed it extensively and then took a leap. She IS a lot of dog and at times has been challenging, but she's also been a lot fun to train and live with.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

4evrlove said:


> Hi Selzer,
> 
> Thank you for your post. I think the problem is that besides the dog people have to be responsible too. Just because the dog is protective it doesn't mean it will bite/attack a harmless person or child. If the dog is too protective than the owner should be responsible and put the dog away when guests/children come over. But that too me shows a dog who is not thinking and assessing rather just reacting to anything that moves. Which again is not what a GSD used to be at least in my eyes or opinion.
> 
> ...


4everlove, did you get your last dog at seven or eight weeks old? Were you the primary caregiver and trainer?

From what puppy buyers tell me, it seems that raising puppies is kind of like the man's view of childbirth in the Bible, how the pain is soon forgotton (my mother tells a different story and as she experienced childbirth six times more than the Biblical author, I am going with her assessment). Anyhow, my point is that people FORGET what raising a puppy is like. They FORGET the time they put into it, or they do not know because they did not raise the puppy.

They got a dog that was good with kids, and had good intelligence, nerve, and discernment. 

Then they get this eight week old puppy who doesn't have a protective bone in its body, and leaks, and poops, and doesn't have a clue. And suddenly they are disappointed in a puppy that is far too young to even be expected to be obedient, have discernment, be protective, etc. 

Whether you raised or trained your dog yourself, or got him a little older, you are really setting up a youngster with some huge paws to fill. Yes, German Shepherds ARE intelligent, and yes, they do show remarkable discernment -- sometimes. 

Your best bet for a dog who will use good discernment is to socialize the dog extensively. The dog draws on their young experiences to determine whether a situation is ok or not. The more varied, good experiences are, the better chance your puppy will not make a bad decision down the road. 

I truly do not know for sure whether any of my dogs will bite someone, because I have yet to be in a bite situation. In the few threatening situations, the dogs threatened back and the threat went away. But I have no clue whether they will go the extra mile and use their teeth. I actually hope I will never need to know.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi Selzer,

Yes, I got him when he was approx 4mos old. Raised and trained him myself just basic behavior and commands. Nothing extensive.

No I have no expectations of a pup that young displaying protective behavior. That was never my intention with this post. I was referring to adult dogs.

The problem is that in my search for a dog that will fit our lifestyle I hear so many contradictory opinions on various bloodlines that it spins my head and makes me sad that what I had and believed a GSD should be seems to no longer exist. It seems that these dogs are now bred for a special singular purpose only and not the complete balanced dog I envision in my mind.

Anyway, I was just trying to get real info and opinion on dogs from the SL. 

Thank you,
czel


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I think the key to having a well rounded dog is the early socializing and having the dog be an integral member of the family, everyday, not when the mood arises, a dog sort of melds into your lifestyle and becomes so in sync with your attitude and moods. I have Showline dogs and while I didn't acquire than for protection so to speak, I do expect them to provide me with a sense of security, which they do. I am a single woman living alone in a rural area, yet having horses I have lots of visitors, I cannot afford to have out of control maniacs, my dogs are formidable watch dogs in the yard, yet, like last week, a co-worker brought her daughters Girl Scout group over to earn a Horsemanship Badge, after doing the horses, the dogs were let out and the girls all enjoyed petting and hugging the dogs, who thoroughly enjoyed the attention, they have fantastic dispositions and I didn't have a minute of apprehension that one would snap or bite. 

I don't believe any line has the market on being the best family pet, it's all about purchasing from reputable breeders who breed sound dogs. There are good and bad dogs in ALL the lines, just do your research beforehand.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LARHAGE said:


> I think the key to having a well rounded dog is the early socializing and having the dog be an integral member of the family, everyday, not when the mood arises, a dog sort of melds into your lifestyle and becomes so in sync with your attitude and moods. I have Showline dogs and while I didn't acquire than for protection so to speak, I do expect them to provide me with a sense of security, which they do. I am a single woman living alone in a rural area, yet having horses I have lots of visitors, I cannot afford to have out of control maniacs, my dogs are formidable watch dogs in the yard, yet, like last week, a co-worker brought her daughters Girl Scout group over to earn a Horsemanship Badge, after doing the horses, the dogs were let out and the girls all enjoyed petting and hugging the dogs, who thoroughly enjoyed the attention, they have fantastic dispositions and I didn't have a minute of apprehension that one would snap or bite.
> 
> *I don't believe any line has the market on being the best family pet, it's all about purchasing from reputable breeders who breed sound dogs. There are good and bad dogs in ALL the lines, just do your research beforehand*.



Yes, this. 

If you listen to the hardcore working line people who are into competitive schutzhund, or other protection sports, they often make very dispareging remarks about showline dogs. This is because the showline dogs do not necessarily have the same things they are looking for in their dogs. It does not mean that the dog will not be protective, or will not act like a GSD. It just means they want a dog that has more of one drive or another, or has a harder temperament. 

If you listen to the hardcore show line people, German or American, they will have their nasty remarks about working lines and other showlines as well. Fanciers from ALL the lines diss the other lines' temperament.

You have to kind of pick and choose what you listen to, where it is coming from, and if what they are describing is going to be a concern for you.

While there are some things, phobias, genetic weak nerves, rage syndrome; for the most part, there are lots of awesome dogs and puppies out there, and you just have to take them home and work with them, socialize them, train them and they will be fine.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Yes, I know, I hear all sorts of things about one line or another. That's why I wanted to get opinions from owners. 

Thank you all for sharing. I really appreciate everyones opinions and advice.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

A big part of it is really knowing WHAT it is you want. My first few dogs are kind of a toss up. They are great dogs, great learning experience, one is my heart dog, but would I now get dogs like that? Probably not, because they helped me learn more about the breed and what it is I really want or don't want (not just what looks cool in YouTube videos or what a breeder tries to sell you on). My last few dogs are basically perfect. Not perfect dogs, but perfect for me because I spent a lot more time learning and experiencing dogs, narrowing down what I was really looking for, what type of dog *I* wanted to live with. Their strengths are those aspects of temperament most important to me, and their "weaknesses" are of no consequence to me. Finding what I wanted was not nearly as hard as figuring out what I wanted.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi Liesje,

Yes I agree with you. I do know what I want I am just not sure what line will carry most of what I want. But I am searching.

Basically I am looking for good temperament, not too drivey, healthy, smart, easy to train, long living, protective, four legged family member. That to me is perfect. 

czel


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you have any clubs or events near you? Best thing would be to meet, touch, interact with various dogs, keep a list of what you like and don't like, ask the owners for the names/lines so you can compare, maybe even get a referral to a local breeder that would meet your needs.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Unfortunately there are no clubs close to where I am. That too is why I am not interested in any type of Sch training -nowhere close by to participate.


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

If you listen to the hardcore show line people, German or American, they will have their nasty remarks about working lines and other showlines as well. Fanciers from ALL the lines diss the other lines' temperament.

- Extremely well stated Selzer.

There are also quite a few breeders on this site doing their best to promote their own, subconsciously or not. 

It seems like you are doing good research, and you may be ready to find a breeder. I am convinced that no matter what Line you end up with, your best bet is to find an awesome breeder. Not just one that's good, or one that can blab about the titles, but one that really knows why their breeding program is producing the best dogs in your area and has the parents on site to prove it. If there are none in your area, go further until you find one. By doing this, whether you pick SL or WD you will get a great, healthy, pup that can be trained to do what ever you want, if you put the time in. An awesome breeder will also help you choose which of the littermates exhibits what you are asking for, and which parents have the qualities you want as well.


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## 4evrlove (Mar 13, 2011)

Hey Dr. Teeth,

I agree with everything you said. Finding an awesome breeder is a daunting task and hard to find out if the breeder is truly good. But I am searching.

Thank you,
czel


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