# I heard from the rescue agency.. Is this dog safe?



## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

Here is what they said:

"Kaspar is a nice boy. 
I do want to let you know that he would not be able to stay outdoors unattended. 
He has a panic attack and will bolt to go over a fence, break through a gate, or start to dig. 

He does well only if you are out with him.
He is crate trained, and will need to be in a crate when you leave him.
He is a very social guy to people.
He loves to play ball.

Please let me know your thoughts. 
Would you like to stay on the list for him. 
Are you okay with always being with him outside, even when going potty?"


* I just want to make sure my daughter is safe. Do you think this is something that can be overcome?*


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Sounds like he has fear/flight issues and a lot of separation anxiety, from what it says here I would not fear for yourself or your daughter, only for him if he panics. How old is he?


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*He is around a year and a half old. Nice lookin dog.. I just wonder if it is something that he will get over (from being passed around). *


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*She also just said, "I do not think he would ever bite. He really likes people.
He just does not want to be stranded outside. 

I have to stand and wait for him to go potty.
If he thinks I am going to sneak in he will not go potty, and starts pacing the fence looking for a way out.
We like to test the dogs and see what they will do if we leave them out to potty. I watch from the window.
He is keen on finding a gate and wiggles them to get them open, or find a weakness. He never does that if you are with him.

He does not act that way in the house.
I do crate him when I leave, and when I sleep.

He is a really nice boy. He greets everyone he meets in a friendly manner.
Many of the dogs we get in rescue can not be left out unsupervised.
Something has happened, and they must be with people.

Kaspar will do best in a home where someone is with him a lot.
The must be part of the family. He loves attention, and will thrive in a nurturing environment.
He prefers men if he has a choice, but is good with me.

I do not think he will overcome the desire to run away if left out unattended. I think he will need a home committed to understanding this behavior. If left on his own to test the behavior, he could get out and be killed by a car, or lost. We did get him from a County Shelter as a stray." *


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Overcome? Do you mean you want to be able to let him out unsupervised or with only your daughter? If your daughter cannot physically control the dog, she shouldn't be at the other end of the dog's leash. He sounds fine to me, personally I don't think I'd ever let my dog out unsupervised but then again we're used to that because we don't have a yard.







Even if we did, I think I'd make a little setup where I could sit or stand outside and be shielded from the elements while my dog does his thing. Call me paranoid but if he's within my sight, he's that much safer. Other than that, I see nothing in that message that says "he likes to eat young girls," just a notice that you must be outside with him at all times because he is prone to panic. That's a nerve issue; he basically has separation anxiety and will do whatever it takes to get back to his people. 



> Quote:He is a very social guy to people.
> He loves to play ball.


See, that's gold. He loves people, and he loves playing ball. The former is FANTASTIC, and the latter is a GREAT way to train and reward. Kaspar sounds excellent! However, if you are not confident in your abilities to handle him or not confident in your daughter's abilities, even with the help of a good trainer (which you should prepare to see almost immediately after adoption), then yes do reconsider; you shouldn't be put into a position you're not ready for or able to overcome. If you feel your daughter cannot restrain Kaspar and she would have to assist in the walking duties by herself, then you will have to rethink. Whoever holds the leash must be able to restrain the dog should be try to get free. A prong collar can help with this; it's like power steering for dogs when used properly.

Good luck! You're doing a great job with researching prior to adoption. Kudos to you for that!


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

If he is 18 months then this is really not a surprising reaction. Often GSD's will go through a fear/flight stage where they suddenly become spooked and fearful of things that have never bothered them before. Has he been evaluated by a trainer experienced in GSD's and their behaviors? 

Often dogs that have been through a hard time and thrown into different situations cling to the security of the "pack leader" human. As they become secure with their situatiuon they will become more confident and slightly less clingy but he may always be a "velcro" dog so you need to think about if that is what you want. Sounds like this dog has a lot of positives.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I just read the other posts. He might be able to overcome his issues, he might not be. The best way to test this would be to enroll in classes where *eventually* supervised separation can be worked on. The Canine Good Citizen test has one portion that requires the owner leave the dog with a judge or other acceptable person for three minutes, remaining out of sight the entire time. The dog must not exhibit a lot of stress to pass. Controlled situations like these are the only times I'd work on supervised separation, at least to start, UNLESS you happen to possess a 12' high solid wall of a fence that even a lion couldn't escape from.







Even then I wouldn't push it. 

Kaspar does sound like a dog that will need a way to keep his mind busy. I think he'd have fun with agility and rally!


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* I was just hoping I could leave him unsupervised (primarily because we have another dog that does roam in the backyard unsupervised when no one is home). As far as my daughter goes, she is 4 months old, so no walking the dog for a LONG time haha..And they would not be left alone together. I also have this vision of me being able to run on the beach with him off leash and not have him run away... It sounds like as long as I am there he would not leave me, but it would really suck if he took off and didn't come back lol. *


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

That's why you never have a dog off leash until plenty of training and PROOFING with a long line has taken place.







Better yet, your dog can run alongside you dragging a long line, that way you have a means to control should he decide to go elsewhere! Other than that, I don't think leaving your other dog unsupervised in the backyard alone is ideal at all and I would be surprised if a rescue adopted to you knowing the dog would also be outdoors unsupervised for a long period of time. One exception would be the dogs in securely fenced and roofed kennels set in concrete (escape-proof). I know I'd have an issue with that because most dogs in that situation are bored and defenseless, so they bark (boredom) and are prone to theft and poisoning/other harm from neighbors sick of the barking (it happens more than you think).


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

For any off leash work I would suggest attending formal training classes that include proofing the dog with distractions with a recall in addition to other proofing. 

I would never, ever suggest leaving any dog unsupervised outside for any length of time, especially when you are not home. Bad things can happen outside really quickly. My dogs are outside right now but I am constantly hopping up to check on them and they have a 2 acre yard, 5 foot fence with 10 fenced acres around them.

I also have to ask...and this is not being negative....but have you really thought about taking on an 18 month old shepherd "puppy" who has separation anxiety issues ect while you have a 4 month old?


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Sorry Diana, I was thinking it while you were typing it.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM Other than that, I don't think leaving your other dog unsupervised in the backyard alone is ideal at all and I would be surprised if a rescue adopted to you knowing the dog would also be outdoors unsupervised for a long period of time. One exception would be the dogs in securely fenced and roofed kennels set in concrete (escape-proof). I know I'd have an issue with that because most dogs in that situation are bored and defenseless, so they bark (boredom) *and are prone to theft and poisoning/other harm from neighbors sick of the barking (it happens more than you think).*


Wasn't there just a post a couple of days ago from someone whose dog was shot when left outside alone???


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

Yes. And there was a woman a couple of years ago who spent many months fund raising for surgery for her GSD who was shot in the face at point blank range by a neighbor. 

One of my neighbors had their dog deliberately poisoned, and I live in suburbia, so this is not just a rural phenomenon. Dogs are not safe outside on their own.


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## AndreaG (Mar 3, 2006)

Yes...here it is:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=886874&page=1&fpart=1


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Okay I will chime in. Kaspar sounds like a clone of my Max. No he may not look like him but Max also was an escaper if left alone outdoors.

Max was adopted from the animal shelter at about 18 months as well. He had been picked up as a stray so we had no history on him.
We have had him for almost 9 years now and he is the sweetest dog, loves kids, loves to play. He did finally overcome his desire to bolt but it took a few years.

It did get old walking him on a leash in his own fenced yard at 5 AM in the snow or rain when we lived in Kentucky. If Kaspar will stay in the yard as long as you are out with him that is actually better than Max. You can stand in a place to at least stay dry when it rains. 

If you have the ability and the desire to put time into Kaspar he sounds like he would be a great dog over time. If this sounds like more than you are willing to do keep looking. You know even a puppy would probably require more effort than this dog will.

Kaspar sounds like he is safe with people. Keep in mind any dog may nip at a toddler if it is picked on. 

Training will be mandatory with any dog and no dog should be off leash without a very reliable recall. Use a long line when you want to give him more freedom on a run on the beach for awhile. At the same time train the recall and it should get better but there are never any guarantees even with a pup you raise and train from day one. Unfortunately my Max's recall has disintegrated as he has aged. It did get pretty good for many years but he is showing signs of dementia and forgetting some things now so he is reverting to some old behaviors. Thankfully escaping is not one of them and he is too old to escape by jumping.

Having Max taught me that it really is not safe for any dog to be left outside while I am away from the house. I am at work and all my shepherds are safely in the house. Crates and dog walkers are beautiful things. 

This is a tough decision.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* Our other dog that is outside while we are at work has never tried to get out..But, at most he is out there for a few hours in the fenced back yard. He may bark while we are gone, but we have never had any complaints...yet.. I have definitely thought about what age dog to get while my daughter is so young. It was pretty unanimous on this board that everyone recommended a young adult and not a puppy. Also, this dog sounds like he does very well with people and other dogs.. He just does not want to be left alone outdoors. I am not first on the waiting list for him, so if it is meant to be then I will get him.. If not, I notified them that I was looking for a young adult male in the future.*


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

MXpro, your current dog sounds like the exception than the rule. I can tell you that most GSDs do NOT take well to being left to their own devices in a yard and also that many GSDs like the sound of their own voices. I strongly suggest you rethink your future dog's living conditions and I hope you consider either building a kennel or making arrangements to keep your future GSD crated indoors while you are away.



> Quote:It was pretty unanimous on this board that everyone recommended a young adult and not a puppy.


Yes, however 18 months is not quite "adult" for many GSDs.







This breed matures slowly and 18 months can still be "crazy college frat boy" stage. 2-3 years would be a better range, give or take the individual dog. Your best bet would be a dog in foster care that is known good around babies and toddlers along with keeping your dog safely indoors or in a securely built kennel. I know your current dog is fine and we're all sounding like broken records but please understand that we're emphasizing this point for very good reasons, reasons we hope you never experience for yourself.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I think you will find the best for you if it is not Kaspar. He sounds wonderful and he will find a great home even if it is not yours. 

I thank you for considering rescue.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* I can most certainly make arrangements for a crate indoors.. That part is easily done. It just seems hard to find the dog that would be best for me. It really appears like my requirements are going to make it very difficult to find the appropriate dog. 
Like my window keeps getting smaller and smaller.. If no one takes Kaspar I still will get to meet him.. I will bring our current dog and my daughter along and introduce them to Kaspar individually and see what his reactions are. Now, since he is POSSIBLY under 2 years old and not quite maturing, do you think that he might grow out of some of that anxiety?*


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Part of the dog is nature and part is nurture. The dog will not run off on the beach only if you train him for recall. How his personality develops in a home will depend on his interaction with the family and the training you provide for him. So the question is how much time you have to devote to your new dog and his training? German Shepherds require social interaction and mental challenges. Do you have the time and interest to provide that? 
The rescues I know will decline applicants who leave their dog unsupervised in the back yard when away from home. While some dogs and some breeds may do OK in the backyard, German Shepherds are likely to get themselves into trouble, they are very intelligent and get bored easily. No rescue wants to see their dog end up under a car or lost after jumping a fence.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Sounds like your current dog is a male? Have you thought about looking for a FEMALE for a second dog?


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* The rescue already stated that he must not be left outside without supervision. Im ok with that. I have time to devote and will have fun playing with him and running, etc.. *


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*Well, I have asked that question on this site a few months ago. 90% of people said a male would be better with the baby for some reason.. But at the time I wasn't living with a current male dog. The main dog that my GSD will be living with is a female black lab. We are living at my mom's house for a few more months and the black lab is at my mother in law's house. *


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Has he been tested with other dogs? You can ask the rescue about that. 

As for the going outside bit--most of my gsds have hated being outside on their own so I end up going out with them anyway. You just get used to it. My Basu was a runner and we were told never to allow him off leash because he would "run away." He had run away from home so many times that he actually had a police record. We had no problems with him running away and, in fact, the only time something like that happened was when the neighbor took him to the park when I was home. He let himself out of the park and started running home!







Luckily she had her cell and called me and I intercepted him before he crossed the road. He was using the sidewalk too, like a good boy.









I have seen stray gsds panic like described for a while after they're rehomed. I think they are trying to find their way back to their original home.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

It might be a good idea to hold off getting another dog until your living situation is more permanent. The dog will hardly have time to adjust to your current living situation and dog only to move into a completely new setting in a few months.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

So where you live NOW has a female lab, but where you WILL be there is a male dog?

And a male being better with children is a myth or old wives tale or whatever you want to call it. That is TOTALLY based on the individual dog. There are plenty of males out there that aren't good with kids and there are plenty of females that are wonderfull with kids.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*That is a funny story lol . She did say that he was good with the other dogs he was in contact with. As far as moving in a few months, it will actually be more like a year. We still have to buy a house and what not before we leave this house. It will be a while unfortunately. *


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*Right now we live with a male Lhasapoo.. But when we buy our house my wife's female black lab will be in the household and the Lhasapoo won't be. I think just initially I always assumed I would have a male, but I am open to that thought for sure. I honestly don't care either way. I just like that the males are a little bigger. *


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* But Rebel, you are right.. If for some reason I do not get Kaspar (odds aren't really with me since I have a few people higher on the list than me) I intend on not looking for a dog until we are situated more permanently. It is hard to do that especially now that I am super excited, but I know it would be best. *


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

How is the Lhasapoo with other male dogs?

Since you are eventually going to be living with a female lab, a male GSD WOULD likely be best. While there ARE female GSDs outthere that get along with other females, your chances of them getting along long term are better with a male GSD.

(And males AREN'T always bigger.







)


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*The Lhasapoo is very protective of his home at first. All of our dogs were dead by the time my mom got Turbo (Lhasapoo). So, he thinks he owns the place and my mom. But we have temporarily adopted dogs in the past or doggy sat, and it takes Turbo a little time to get used to another dog in the family. He is a very smart boy and will learn quickly that Kaspar (if I got him) is mine and not there to take over my mom. Turbo, once getting used to another dog, loves to play. So I know they would have a blast together after a week or so. And I do trust you that not all males are bigger than females







.. *


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* I better clarify.. Kaspar would not be a temporarily adopted dog. The other ones were favors for friends. *


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Mxpro let me ask a difficult question - I don't know you or your situation so I can only infer information based on your posts and I don't want to assume anything either - but ---- are you really ready for a dog yet? Even if you really want one are you ready for one? 

You may be, and you may be the best home out there, but it seems as if your situation is in flux which can make things difficult for families and dogs. 

I apologize in advance if I am talking out of school.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

Very possibly this dog was never in a stable enviornment and once settled this could possibly completely go away with time. 

Does not sound like a dangerous dog at all.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*I think many people are in similar or worse situations when they get dogs. If I'm not ready now then I probably wouldn't be more ready until my daughter was a lot older (and I don't want to wait that much longer). The only thing difficult about my situation now is just that this would be a temporary house for a new dog for a while until we bought a new house. A lot of dogs get moved around and adapt. This isn't an on-going thing by any means. I will be able to devote a lot of time and energy. So, I think I am ready. *


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Okay. Did not mean to intrude or imply anything as only you know the answer to that and the rescue most likely would not have approved you if they thought or knew your situation could be unstable. 

So when do you get to meet Kaspar?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Have you done any training with your previous dogs?


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*Oh no worries. I am not offended or anything. I know you are all very protective over the breed in general. I assure you I am a great, positive person. I will treat him like a child. 

I have only done training on my own. I haven't gone through any professional courses or anything. I watch training vids on YouTube and what not. But I will most certainly enroll in some classes with my new addition. He will be MY first real dog. I have grown up with dogs all my life, but I have never had one to call my own. So he will be my baby. *


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MXpro982 I will treat him like a child.
> [/b]


You DON'T want to do that. You can spoil within reason, but gsd's need a firm leader or they'll take the upper hand


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* haha I will have plenty of authority.. I just meant my love for him. *


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Angela is right. Like with children, love, running and playing is not enough. They need training, socialization and boundaries. It is similar like education and social activities for children.

The other thing is that German Shepherds shed. many women are sensitive about having doghair around young babies.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* I will have fun doing all of those and have intended to all along. I will take a lot of pride in the training and watching the progress/transition. I don't just want a dog to pet. I also want a challenge. My daughter has been around my mother-in-laws malamute and hasn't had any issues with the shedding. I plan on buying a pet vaccuum and doing a lot of brushing his coat. *


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*Well, I just got word that someone is meeting Kaspar Sunday and another person meeting him on Wednesday.. So unless those two options collapse I will not be getting Kaspar







*


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Well we hope they don't like him!!!

As for treating a dog like a child... well, I treat my dogs like my kid. My kid is a responsible 24 year old adult who was raised in a home with boundaries and limits and fair and consistent rules. Just what a dog needs!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I had 2 Sibes & a friend had Malamutes. They blew their coats seasonally, but they didn't have the ongoing shedding I see with my GSDs. The shedding doesn't bother me, but I read that it's among the biggest reasons people don't keep 'em. Which just blows me away! I can't fathom it. Sooo, Malamutes might not have prepared you for GSD shedding.

I wouldn't automatically rule out a female GSD, especially since your other dog is a Lab, who tend to be lovers rather than fighters usually. Good rescues usually evaluate with both sexes & should know if an available bitch is intolerant of other females.

Provided your dog continues to get adequate exercise & attention, the stress of moving s/b manageable. Dogs bond much more closely with their people than their habitat.

My niece's rescue has a somewhat shaky temperament & life long separation anxiety. She's a student & has moved many times, including to different cities & states. Many of the homes were shared rentals where there was already a dog(or 2). Despite his problems, her guy has never had trouble moving to a new place.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

* I'm not worried about the shedding at all. I know exactly what I am getting into and I'm not going into it blind. The people who dissown their GSDs because of shedding must not know a lot about a shepherd and obviously weren't prepared. I would sure think that the dog could adapt to different locations as long as he has the same family. Thanks for all the comments and concerns.. Time to cross my fingers. If its meant to be it will happen..If not, then I will get one in a year or so..







*


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I had a male GSD that appeared injured in my backyard - he had a history of leaving if left alone outside for any amount of time. When we moved to an acre (and he had a companion) he stopped for the most part as long as his routine was maintained -- two walks a day and one long walk a week. The companion dog (my "original" dog) really helped out in the house (he had gone through closed windows in prior homes). The acre and regular excersize/routine controlled his urge to roam outside.

It is probably more you learning what he needs rather than him "outgrowing" the behavior.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:I know exactly what I am getting into and I'm not going into it blind.


I believe you do, which is why my post generally assumed you're getting a GSD ASAP. It was intended as global info & not as a warning or heads up to you specifically. My apologies for not making that clear.


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## MXpro982 (Aug 31, 2008)

*Oh no problems lol.. It sounds like I won't be getting one for a little while now. If Kaspar doesn't work out,I am just going to wait til I buy a house. Make it easier on everyone. *


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