# Koehler Method for 9 month old pup?



## PaperclipHearts (Jun 2, 2014)

Hi all, I would love to have some advice regarding our new puppy!

Mum and Dad recently bought a handsome sable 8 month old pup (Shadow) who was being bullied by his previous owner's older male dog (hence why they decided it would be best to rehome him). He's from the Czech line and is an absolutely sweetheart - he'd been bought by the previous owners to train as a guard dog but they found he didn't have the right disposition, being such as a sweet and gentle dog. However, he is a big boy - he's going to be 9 months old soon and is around 60lbs!

Mum and Dad have tried to train him, but I suspect he is too intelligent and stubborn to listen to their repeated insistence on "sit, sit sit SIT SIT". He will learn quickly if he sees the need to and is motivated, since I did teach him to play fetch in under half an hour. I used a bag of treats and lots of praise at first, but after he got the hang of it, he fetched simply for the pleasure of having the ball thrown so he could fetch it again!

My parents have been having difficulties getting him to heel; my mum's pretty frail and can't handle his size and strength - she was taking him on a walk once when he spotted a cat and raced after it, causing her to fall on the road. He's a lovely boy otherwise, I know he's only a pup but I think it's important we train him now so as to avoid any future problems - I think it'll only get more difficult as he gets bigger and older and I don't want it to get to that stage. Furthermore, the reality is that if they simply can't handle him, then their options are to either send him for boarded training (which is quite expensive and probably beyond their means) or to rehome him again, so I want to do my best to train him as I know he has the potential to be an absolutely amazing dog!

I've been researching different dog training methods. My parents have tried using the reward-based method which was demonstrated to them by the trainer, but they haven't had much luck with that because he only listens when he knows there's a treat in your hand, which obviously isn't ideal. I came across the Koehler method a few years back, and I think this method might suit him - I particularly like that Koehler treats the dog like a _thinking_ animal who gets to make his own choices, and I think that'll suit Shadow because he's a clever dog and I think he'd respond better to training where he gets to think and make his own decisions? Am I right in this, or should we just continue with the reward-based training?

My parents aren't too keen on the Koehler method - unfortunately, they do see it as being a "harsh" way of training, so it'll be up to me to train him. I've read the book several times, but I'm just a bit nervous - I don't want to mess things up. Do you have any tips? Also, the book needs about 13 weeks to train the dog, but I'll only be visiting my parents for 8 weeks. Would it be possible to condense the training into this period of time? I don't mean leave stuff out, as Koehler was very against that, but say I were to have 2 training sessions per day instead of one - would that work?

On a side note, Shadow started chasing his tail (and peeing like a girl) when he was with the previous owner, and they suspected it was in response to the bullying. Is there any way to train him to stop doing this, or will he eventually grow out of it once he gets his confidence back? (we've only had him for a few weeks, after all!) 

Thank you!


EDIT: Here's a picture!


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

You don't need a 'one method' or 'one-sized fits all' training. 
Positive reinforcement is an excellent way to train a dog; this is what your parents are attempting to do, but in the meantime, your mother needs to have physical control of your dog. Halti, gentle leader, front hook harness, prong collar, are devices that can help. You or her, would need proper instruction on using a prong collar. Halti's often work quite well, but dogs usually hate them, and can hurt themselves. I haven't tried a front-hook harness, so I can't say, they could try one of those.
Are your parents taking classes? Are they willing to take classes? It should be them training the dog.
I'd be suggesting they take a class that is 'mostly' positive reinforcement with a trainer that puts safety (the dogs and your parents) first, aka 'balanced trainer'.


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## dogchamp (May 19, 2016)

In my opinion the reward based training methodology is better than any other methodology when it comes to train a dog.

Whatever method you choose, it's up to you but make sure to take one step at a time. I mean if you are teaching a specific command e.g. the "sit" command then wait until your dog is fully trained on that command before jumping to the next one. 

Best advice I can give is to make your dog realize that he has to earn his desired behavior. I mean he should be only getting treats, if he is behaving as you want him to. Hope it helps.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

No matter how well trained a dog is,if your parents aren't well trained and confident handlers the dog will do as it pleases.The tail chasing must stop immediately!It can quickly become obsessive compulsive behavior.Is he getting plenty of exercise?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Koehler triggers a bad reaction in positive only trainers because he says to do things like hang the dog on a choke chain if it doesn't respond. If you have his book, read it and pull out what is useful, then disregard the rest. I personally don't care for treat training for most tasks, but it works well for simple things like sit and down. It's very distracting for other behaviors and when you don't have treats, your dog may ignore you. I've tried all methods. I prefer a balanced approach, so I use a pinch or training collar when I need it and I use treats when I need them. Now, I've moved away from treats and I use verbal praise, which is all my dog needs. 

If you know Koehler and can use it safely, then try it. If I have time, I work my dog 2-3 times a day until his attention starts to wander. 10 minutes at a time is enough. I take months to set a behavior in my dog. With recall, I wait a year before assuming the dog will never ignore a command. Others here have different methods and schedules.

Make sure whatever you use, your parents are comfortable with its since they will be handling him when you leave. Since you are there for a short time, make sure he responds to Sit, Down, Heel without treats by the time you leave. Also Wait at doors, not crowding when they are walking in the house. Get him started on Sit Stay for three minutes and a long Down Stay for ten minutes. Also, teach the Place command. I'm sorry this is not a German Shepherd, I think it's a Rottie Mix but it's the best and most patient teaching of Place I have found.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Here are some different methods. Pick just one and stick with it. These are both treat based. I'm not recommding any one trainer, just showing you options


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Koehler... not a fan.

Dogs need leadership, not negative reinforcement.

I do use an ecollar for certain behaviors.. but not before dog knows command.

I do use a properly fit prong collar.

Old enough to remember negative reinforcement techniques, but this is a super intelligent breed and should learn commands quickly. Then repetition, repetition until it's an almost ingrained behavior.

There is no magic or quick fix. Time and consistency - IMHO.

Good luck


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Dont use Koehler, it's abusive and out-dated. He has good methods on training a guard dog like the decoy work and setting up environments. But he goes too far in suggesting to hang a dog until he passes out to get him to stop biting you. Use a clicker with positive reinforcements.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Here are some nice videos for place.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Julian G said:


> Dont use Koehler, it's abusive and out-dated. He has good methods on training a guard dog like the decoy work and setting up environments. But he goes too far in suggesting to hang a dog until he passes out to get him to stop biting you. Use a clicker with positive reinforcements.


Not abusive. The technique you are speaking of is for behavior modification not training, and is not speaking of your puppy biting but addressing the issue of dogs who turn on their handlers in response to being restricted or corrected. Not outdated, still widely used and highly successful. 

Now clicker training is in my mind abusive. I am going to give you NO direction and NO foundation and then I am going to sit here and taunt you with something you really want until you accidently do what I want. Then I'm going to do it again, and again, and again. That's cruel.:shrug:

To the OP, before you use Koehlers method, study it and learn it. There is a whole system to it, each thing leads into the next and lays your foundation. And he was a big believer in homework:smile2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

In a "nut shell" ..." KMODT" is about teaching your dog to "Make Good Choices." And I am not "aware" of any other "method" that can guarantee a fully off leash trained dog in "Ten Weeks??"

By and large most "effective" Dog Trainers pick and chose parts of the "KMODT and mold it to fit "today's" sensibilities. I view "Conversal Leash Work" as a variation on KMODT leash work ...you just "guide" the dog in the intended direction, instead of making the "Hard right angle changes" of direction regardless of where the dog is. A dog trained in "KMODT style, quickly learns that it is in his "best interest" to "Choose" to pay attention to you." 

"Controversial Leash Work" ... see here:





And a discussion on "KMODT" from sigh ... a former member and pass "Trainer" can be found in this thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/577802-koehler-method-dog-training.html

So if your goal is a fully "Off Leash Trained Dog in 10 weeks??" Go with KMODT, if all you want is a well trained well disciplined dog, there are other ways of getting there. 

I'm going to break out a few things for you from this thread.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

Rules Discipline and Structure is what a dog needs, Crate Training would be step one, and a no Free roaming in the house policy and Place would be part two and three. No bed privileges and no up on the furniture. It does not need to be for life but 30 to 90 days would be best. Indoors the Dog would be in "Place" or in his Crate period.

Place and Sit on the Dog train calmness into the dog, there is a thread in that link that explains all of that. 

The basis of training a dog to walk "properly" on a loose leash is in the first video clip here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

That's it get that down understand the concept behind it by watching your dog and understanding how he moves and your job is done. It was the first thing I was taught ... I ditched it I figured I knew better ... I was wrong ... back to basics ... worked out fine. 

So I never had a problem walking a dog with a regular collar and flat leash but at a "Boxer Rescue event I was given a Slip Lead Leash?? Well ... if you can walk a dog properly with a flat leash and regular collar ... a SLL is a piece of cake! Details on using a SLL are here:

Slip Lead leash - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

So you can use "KMODT" but you don't "need"to. KMODT works but so does "Place and Sit on the Dog" and a "No Free Roaming in the house policy for the dog, and those are not a part of the "KMODT." Those are all things you can do and none of them would be considered "harsh." 

Handsome dog by the way and the high anxiety level with the "previous" owner ... not really sure why the dog "needs" to be exposed to them?? If he needs to be around the "previous owner" and you want the behaviour to stop?? Two things to be done ... the dog should be in "Place" and you could correct your dog for breaking "Place" (Once properly taught) and you need to keep that owner out of the dogs "face." Tell them look but don't touch, "Advocate for your dog."


As always ... ask questions and welcome aboard.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

I use Tyler Muto's 'conversational leash work with Sonic, in situations where he is too excited to think about treats. It works, and calms him down (and I do this on a flat collar-but he is only a 38 lb dog), but I don't dispense with the treatbag and other motivators, it's just one more tool in the tool box.
It's good to keep an open mind, and all dogs are different, and even in different situations, but back to the OP. I really think you need to talk to your parents, get a conversation going. He sounds like a very nice dog, cat chasing is pretty normal for a an untrained dog. They need a way to walk him safely (without fear of getting dragged down the street), but they need to part of the conversation. Keep reading and watching and thinking, and then share your thoughts with them, then listen to them; what do they want and need. 
This board is great place to get advice, keep on asking.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The important thing is to find one method that works for you and your dog and use it. Jumping from one thing to another is confusing for the dog and doesn't build good training skills. I decided to try new methods with my puppy, used a lot of videos and ended up creating a few problems. We found a good trainer who is working with us on method and consistency and the problems are vanishing, almost overnight. If you have limited time and aren't finding solutions, it's worth using a good trainer to train you. You can learn only so much from a video. I share them because it's better than nothing, but unless you are very good at observing and copying a method, there are things trainers do which are hard to follow.

I have used videos successfully for rote behaves like sit, down, etc. I have not found them helpful in solving complex behavioral problems.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Not abusive. The technique you are speaking of is for behavior modification not training, and is not speaking of your puppy biting but addressing the issue of dogs who turn on their handlers in response to being restricted or corrected. Not outdated, still widely used and highly successful.
> 
> Now clicker training is in my mind abusive. I am going to give you NO direction and NO foundation and then I am going to sit here and taunt you with something you really want until you accidently do what I want. Then I'm going to do it again, and again, and again. That's cruel.:shrug:
> 
> To the OP, before you use Koehlers method, study it and learn it. There is a whole system to it, each thing leads into the next and lays your foundation. And he was a big believer in homework:smile2:


So you support hanging your dog until it passes out? Hoping he regains consciousness? Or how about we trick the dog into running at full speed with a choke collar and letting him mess his throat up. I do not agree with some of his methods. I like a lot of his methods, but some are just off the wall medieval times cruelty. But please, enlighten me, I am always open to learning new things.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Julian G said:


> So you support hanging your dog until it passes out? Hoping he regains consciousness? Or how about we trick the dog into running at full speed with a choke collar and letting him mess his throat up. I do not agree with some of his methods. I like a lot of his methods, but some are just off the wall medieval times cruelty. *But please, enlighten me, I am always open to learning new things*.


To be open to learning new things one must learn to close their mouth and open their minds. 

If my dog is one that thinks it is acceptable to bite me in protest or anger then yes, I support the 'hanging method'. Which by the way is also still widely used.
As for messing up the throat, maybe. Far less damaging then being hit by a car I imagine.

As Chip pointed out, it's about teaching your dog to make good choices. And it's about a few serious corrections rather then repeated half corrections that most certainly teach a dog you are a joke, and could damage the dogs throat or worse. 
Use any method that works for you, or if you are smart use them all. All tools are good tools. Some jobs require needle nose pliers and some just require a sledge hammer, but most jobs are better done once and done right.

I own a dog that would, at 14, still happily and with enthusiasm snack on an ineffective handler. He just proved that this morning, when a house guest gave him a soft check for pulling on his collar while being held back. Fortunately I was close, and guest got a piece of my mind for both the holding and the correcting.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> Not abusive. The technique you are speaking of is for behavior modification not training, and is not speaking of your puppy biting but addressing the issue of dogs who turn on their handlers in response to being restricted or corrected. Not outdated, still widely used and highly successful.
> 
> Now clicker training is in my mind abusive. I am going to give you NO direction and NO foundation and then I am going to sit here and taunt you with something you really want until you accidently do what I want. Then I'm going to do it again, and again, and again. That's cruel.:shrug:
> 
> To the OP, before you use Koehlers method, study it and learn it. There is a whole system to it, each thing leads into the next and lays your foundation. And he was a big believer in homework:smile2:


 I don't know that "Clicker Training in itself is "abusive per se??"

But what a do know is that it "Adds an additional layer of distraction" between and owner and his dog. 

To use a "Clicker Properly" one must first understand how the tool is used and then "Translate" what one "Thinks" they understand to the dog. It's "too" much crap for me! I like to "KISS" so I am the SLL guy! I believe in the absolute "minimum" of "filters" between "Dog and Owner." 


So ... imagine my surprise and "Horror" when I discovered, that one of the "Trainers" I do "Respect" ... "Bonker guy" Gary Wilkes not only is "The" Clicker guy but also an "advocate" of the "Nose harness" "Crap???" 

Oh well .... as they said ... the only thing three dog trainers will "agree" on ... is that "One of them is Wrong!" 

That said ... "Bonker Guy (Gary Wilkes)" is also ... "The Clicker Guy":

Home

I say "KISS" myself a SLL and I'm good.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

OP - where do you live? Just relevant so to know what correction collars are available to you.

First, at 8 months old, this is probably just a LARGE puppy who was never taught anything. Since your mom is frail and has already been hurt, my first inclination is to tell you to use a prong collar to correct him, keep her safe AND in while you are doing that use treats to teach him position. It's not the ideal way but it's quick and effective. However, if you are in the UK then I think prong collars are not legal?

The slow way, that I prefer is to teach position by teaching them to release to the pressure of the leash. Much like as described in this blog.
The Domestics of Leash Walking | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee

When you use treats, you have to phase them out. In order to do that, you have to have a relationship with the dog so the dog enjoys working with you. "Work" as in obedience should be the same as PLAY to the dog. 

A clicker helps the dog learn faster. It can mark the action faster than we can. but to depend on it solely often doesn't work. Sometimes we need to tell our dogs "No! This is not allowed" and since you are starting with an 8 month old vs an 8 week old, you might have to being with No! before you can teach How.

Don't worry about the "peeing like a girl". Many male dogs don't lift their leg until they get older. DO worry about the tail chasing. Do not allow him to do that. Stop him. Redirect him with a toy or attention. But do everything possible to stop it.

Aren't there any classes you can take him to in your area? any dog clubs?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> To be open to learning new things one must learn to close their mouth and open their minds.
> 
> If my dog is one that thinks it is acceptable to bite me in protest or anger then yes, I support the 'hanging method'. Which by the way is also still widely used.
> As for messing up the throat, maybe. Far less damaging then being hit by a car I imagine.
> ...


LOL where do people fine these dogs??? 

And yes ... by and large people that "Think" Hanging" a dog is a "Training Technique" ... have no idea what they are talking about! Hanging a dog is a "Self Defense" measure! By and large I tend to think that anyone that does not "understand that ... has never seen a "Red Zone Dog??" If "PO" only advocates ... "Think" they "can Rehab" a "Dog Killing, Human Handler, Aggressive," dog with "PO" only techniques?? Jeff Gellman has a standing $25,000 challenge to "Anyone that says they can "Successfully" Rehab the "Dog Killing , Human Aggressive Dogs" that he works with on a "Daily Basis!" 

So ... Victoria Principal disciples ... step on up!:










As I am want to say ... I like to keep to:









For people

... moving on ...by and large most of the "Critics of the "KMODT" have not *"READ THE BOOK!" 
*
And no it's most likely "not" the only way to train a dog to be "Off Leash RELIABLE" in ten weeks???

But as I am want to say:


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Now clicker training is in my mind abusive. I am going to give you NO direction and NO foundation and then I am going to sit here and taunt you


Maybe you are joking. Anyways here is some info to inform people on clicker training. 

It really is tried and tested for a long time so no need to dismiss it because you don't like it. Some people might simply like to use a word as a marker instead of the clicker but the concept is the same.

Clicker Training: Communicating with Your Dog, Positively and Effectively.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> LOL where do people fine these dogs???
> 
> And yes ... by and large people that "Think" Hanging" a dog is a "Training Technique" ... have no idea what they are talking about! Hanging a dog is a "Self Defense" measure! By and large I tend to think that anyone that does not "understand that ... has never seen a "Red Zone Dog??" If "PO" only advocates ... "Think" they "can Rehab" a "Dog Killing, Human Handler, Aggressive," dog with "PO" only techniques?? Jeff Gellman has a standing $25,000 challenge to "Anyone that says they can "Successfully" Rehab the "Dog Killing , Human Aggressive Dogs" that he works with on a "Daily Basis!"
> 
> ...


 Oh yeah... Click and Treat ... Home


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Dog Training Corrections are one of the most controversial issues for Dog Owners

Guide to operant conditioning, rewards, corrections, how a dog learns and a lot more.

http://www.training-your-dog-and-you.com/Clicker-Training.html


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MadLab said:


> Dog Training Corrections are one of the most controversial issues for Dog Owners
> 
> Guide to operant conditioning, rewards, corrections, how a dog learns and a lot more.
> 
> Clicker Training: Communicating with Your Dog, Positively and Effectively.


That is a great site and I make use of it since you pointed it out to me. 

So I use it myself, but to help people better understand the 4 QOCOP ... I kinda like these guys.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> *To be open to learning new things one must learn to close their mouth and open their minds. *
> 
> If my dog is one that thinks it is acceptable to bite me in protest or anger then yes, I support the 'hanging method'. Which by the way is also still widely used.
> As for messing up the throat, maybe. Far less damaging then being hit by a car I imagine.
> ...


No need to get angry and hostile. And my mouth isn't open, I am just typing on a computer. Michael Ellis uses clicker training, not with a clicker but with a marker word like "yes". If someone is a good handler to begin with, why would a dog who you properly raised since birth turn on you? Maybe I missed something.



MadLab said:


> Maybe you are joking. Anyways here is some info to inform people on clicker training.
> 
> It really is tried and tested for a long time so no need to dismiss it because you don't like it. Some people might simply like to use a word as a marker instead of the clicker but the concept is the same.
> 
> Clicker Training: Communicating with Your Dog, Positively and Effectively.


I don't think she is joking, I can feel her anger through her post:grin2:.
With clicker training or marker word training, the dog learns to make good decisions just like she and Koehler tried to promote, only the dog isn't feeling pain.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> why would a dog who you properly raised since birth turn on you? Maybe I missed something.


Why did your dog shred you when you tried to leash him?


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Why did your dog shred you when you tried to leash him?


Because he was a puppy and that's what GSD puppies do.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Not all of them. But if you look at it as he was letting you know he didn't want to do what you wanted him to, you can see how a very strong, mature dog can sometimes protest you trying to make him do something he doesn't want to when there's something else he'd really rather do.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Julian G said:


> No need to get angry and hostile. And my mouth isn't open, I am just typing on a computer. Michael Ellis uses clicker training, not with a clicker but with a marker word like "yes". If someone is a good handler to begin with, why would a dog who you properly raised since birth turn on you? Maybe I missed something.
> 
> Well I haven't raised him from birth and he didn't turn on me. He used to but not anymore. And my point was that even at his end of life stage, I own a dog that doesn't respect wishy washy handling, or unfair corrections. And he will tell you so.
> 
> ...


I find it amusing that clicker training is so popular. First of all it makes the assumption that all dogs want to please, which is incorrect, and it really is basically endlessly taunting your dog. The difference between the two is that one dog gets a couple of corrections and learns from it, one dog spends endless amounts of time trying to figure out what the heck you want it to do and when.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> I find it amusing that clicker training is so popular. First of all it makes the assumption that all dogs want to please, which is incorrect, and it really is basically endlessly taunting your dog. The difference between the two is that one dog gets a couple of corrections and learns from it, one dog spends endless amounts of time trying to figure out what the heck you want it to do and when.




Well, not in my experience with training Italian Greyhounds and a Dobe. I've never used a clicker with a GSD, but it was absolutely made for a sighthound brain. I used to assist a trainer years ago in a beginner class, and anytime we had a sighthound it was handed off to me and my trusty clicker. I got results WAY faster than traditional methods. My own Dobe thought the clicker was about the most fun thing EVER. She'd dance in excitement when she saw it. Like I said, I've never used one with a GSD.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Wanted to add that its not been my experience that all dogs want to please. Dogs do what benefits them. My own dogs loved the clicker, and yes, would throw behaviors at me to get me to click so they could get the treats. You could practically see the gears twirling in their brains. It wasn't frustrating to them. Believe me, a sighthound is all about themselves, and pleasing you doesn't factor into anything they do, lol.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> I find it amusing that clicker training is so popular. First of all it makes the assumption that all dogs want to please, which is incorrect, and it really is basically endlessly taunting your dog. The difference between the two is that one dog gets a couple of corrections and learns from it, one dog spends endless amounts of time trying to figure out what the heck you want it to do and when.


I think you're mixing an opinion of certain people who use a clicker with the actual use of a clicker. Its really helpful with narrowing down to a specific behavior that you may want some detail with. Every dog wants to please themselves, but using a clicker isn't dependent on a dog wanting to please you. If you wanted to, you could combine it with as much neck cranking compulsion as you're physically capable of. 

I think you're really stretching here to make a point. There's nothing even resembling taunting about clickers or free shaping something.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> I find it amusing that clicker training is so popular. First of all it makes the assumption that all dogs want to please, which is incorrect, and it really is basically endlessly taunting your dog. The difference between the two is that one dog gets a couple of corrections and learns from it, one dog spends endless amounts of time trying to figure out what the heck you want it to do and when.


This description is so full of assumptions on what clicker training is and so far off of what the use of a clicker actually is. Not once have I taunted my dog. Not once have I let my dog stand there helplessly trying to figure out what to do. Those statements are just absurd.

A clicker is simply a device that marks an action to break an exercise down to it's simplest steps. You can free shape it. You can lure.. However you do it, it's simply a training device. A device that one trainer I went to called "the most powerful took in dog training" because you can mark the behavior or action so quickly helping the dogs learn and understand that much easier.

I find it sad that anyone has that much of a misconception OR can't take the device and figure out how to use it in a way that is beneficial. It's hysterical that anyone could attach this to an abuse scenario. I guess maybe if I threw it at my dog


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

That description of clicker training sounds like a poor description of free shaping.

Plenty (I'd say even most) of clicker and other marker training is done with luring so there is no guesswork for the dog.

As for free shaping, my impression of it is that the dog is happiky screwing around doing whatever and surprise! Click! Treat! First time he may not make the connecttion and the click and treat may seem to come from the sky, which is nit a hardship, second time he usualky makes the connection his feet were in a certain place or he was looking at you or so on, and he repeats it to see if that is right and gets more click and treat. Then creativity is born because he realizes he can offer stuff to see if that might work.

Whenever my dogs get frustrated because they can't figure it out, I am aware of it. Sometimes, they need to get a little frustrated to get it but very often I need to jump in and help so they stay motivatdd and feel successful, and I do. I would never leave a dog hanging who really wants to work with me, is trying but just doesn't get it, and is therefore getting frustrated and upset.

Markers make communication much MORE clear, look at Michael Ellis work a dog and see if that dog is feeling taunted and like it doesn't know what is expected of it


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I think it depends how it is used. I've seen clicker training work very well or work badly. The important thing isn't the method but whether the handler is using it correctly and whether the dog responds. I personally hate treat training but I've seen it work for other people. I'm using a form of clicker training and it's working very well for my dog. We are shaping behaviors but without the use of treats.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Not all of them. But if you look at it as he was letting you know he didn't want to do what you wanted him to, you can see how a very strong, mature dog can sometimes protest you trying to make him do something he doesn't want to when there's something else he'd really rather do.


The way he used to do it (its engraved in my mind) was he loved to play and soft-mouth my hands. Anytime my hands got near him, he soft mouthed it. With their razor sharp teeth, to me it would result in scratches. And I kept him crated a lot, so when I took him out it was straight to the leash for his walk, he had all that built up energy from being crated. I had a hard time teaching him not to pee in the house without having to crate him all the time. It was just a mess of a situation, I was moving, there were items and boxes and clothes all over the house, I was not ready for a dog. When I finally moved, it brought stability to my situation and I finally got it all under control. So it's not that he didn't like the leash, he loved going on walks and looked forward to it. I also loved to wrestle with him and pull on the loose skin around his face and neck, he was just too **** cute. I find it hard to believe so many trainers say to not over-pet your dog especially a GSD, when they are pups they are the cutest things in the world and it's really hard to resist. I would have college girls run up to me and beg to pet him, every single day. I guess that is not something a "strong" handler does huh?



Sabis mom said:


> I find it amusing that clicker training is so popular. First of all it makes the assumption that all dogs want to please, which is incorrect, and it really is basically endlessly taunting your dog. The difference between the two is that one dog gets a couple of corrections and learns from it, one dog spends endless amounts of time trying to figure out what the heck you want it to do and when.


How would you correct a dog to sit, or lay? I am truly curious. Because I was also thinking that there has to be a way to teach a dog these things without bribing them with food. And I hope you dont think I was being a smart ass, sometimes when writing something it's hard to put a friendly tone to it. I met a trainer who made sure the dogs were starved before their sessions, so they had to please you in order to get food. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the first 2 weeks of bringing home a pup is the most crucial. Discovering the magic recipe to perfectly bond with the pup, I think, will set you up for easy training and long lasting results.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Julian G said:


> The way he used to do it (its engraved in my mind) was he loved to play and soft-mouth my hands. Anytime my hands got near him, he soft mouthed it. With their razor sharp teeth, to me it would result in scratches. And I kept him crated a lot, so when I took him out it was straight to the leash for his walk, he had all that built up energy from being crated. I had a hard time teaching him not to pee in the house without having to crate him all the time. It was just a mess of a situation, I was moving, there were items and boxes and clothes all over the house, I was not ready for a dog. When I finally moved, it brought stability to my situation and I finally got it all under control. So it's not that he didn't like the leash, he loved going on walks and looked forward to it. I also loved to wrestle with him and pull on the loose skin around his face and neck, he was just too **** cute. I find it hard to believe so many trainers say to not over-pet your dog especially a GSD, when they are pups they are the cutest things in the world and it's really hard to resist. I would have college girls run up to me and beg to pet him, every single day. I guess that is not something a "strong" handler does huh?
> 
> 
> How would you correct a dog to sit, or lay? I am truly curious. Because I was also thinking that there has to be a way to teach a dog these things without bribing them with food. And I hope you dont think I was being a smart ass, sometimes when writing something it's hard to put a friendly tone to it. I met a trainer who made sure the dogs were starved before their sessions, so they had to please you in order to get food. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the first 2 weeks of bringing home a pup is the most crucial. Discovering the magic recipe to perfectly bond with the pup, I think, will set you up for easy training and long lasting results.


See you are over exaggerating everything. Many trainers keep dogs hungry before training. They aren't "starving".


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are many trainers that will starve their dogs before training. Won't track? Ok so you don't eat for a couple of days.

And then there are those of us that just use them meals for training and use the dogs genetic drives.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> This description is so full of assumptions on what clicker training is and so far off of what the use of a clicker actually is. Not once have I taunted my dog. Not once have I let my dog stand there helplessly trying to figure out what to do. Those statements are just absurd.
> 
> A clicker is simply a device that marks an action to break an exercise down to it's simplest steps. You can free shape it. You can lure.. However you do it, it's simply a training device. A device that one trainer I went to called "the most powerful took in dog training" because you can mark the behavior or action so quickly helping the dogs learn and understand that much easier.
> 
> I find it sad that anyone has that much of a misconception OR can't take the device and figure out how to use it in a way that is beneficial. It's hysterical that anyone could attach this to an abuse scenario. I guess maybe if I threw it at my dog


:thumbup:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> *This description is so full of assumptions on what clicker training is and so far off of what the use of a clicker actually is.* Not once have I taunted my dog. Not once have I let my dog stand there helplessly trying to figure out what to do. Those statements are just absurd.
> 
> A clicker is simply a device that marks an action to break an exercise down to it's simplest steps. You can free shape it. You can lure.. However you do it, it's simply a training device. A device that one trainer I went to called "the most powerful took in dog training" because you can mark the behavior or action so quickly helping the dogs learn and understand that much easier.
> 
> I find it sad that anyone has that much of a misconception OR can't take the device and figure out how to use it in a way that is beneficial. It's hysterical that anyone could attach this to an abuse scenario. I guess maybe if I threw it at my dog


Kind of like all the people who spout off about KMODT being abusive?

Difference is I have actually used clicker training, I understand it. Luring and shaping are fine for some dogs, for some dogs they aren't. Marking a behavior is fine, if you can get the dog to perform the behavior. And again, not all dogs want to please and I prefer to use whatever methods, techniques and tools work for the job.
Example? Shadow now walks on a prong. I have never used one before, never had a need to. I am old, I have owned, fostered and worked with countless dogs, never needed a prong. 

But I understand the importance of the right tool.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Julian G said:


> How would you correct a dog to sit, or lay? I am truly curious. Because I was also thinking that there has to be a way to teach a dog these things without bribing them with food.


Using food rewards is not "bribing". Here's a great article that explains the difference: Lures, Rewards and Bribes | Dog Star Daily


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Can we get back on topic now? 

This thread has absolutely proven multiple things.

Very few of you get sarcasm, that's sad.

Lots of you clearly are quite young

And typically, many of you are ok with attacking someone else's beliefs but get really upset when your own are attacked.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yes, there are some dogs who won't work for food or praise. I knew an Akita like that. He could NOT be bothered. 

Only reward of value was a flirt pole, a d being allowed to run free. He was taught recall with an e collar and leash manners with a prong and became a very manageable dog, and he did begin to have interest in food rewards once he was started on both those other tools.

Of all the dogs I have known, ones who couldn't be bothered with food or praise were the minority by a long shot...unless you are trying to teach offleash recall to a hunting dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sigh ... I thought this was a thread about the "KMODT??" Not "freaking "Clicker Trainer?? KDODT works with "All" dogs ..."Clicker Trainer does not! A person that at the "minimum" "Understands" the "concepts" and principles behind the "KMODT" is at the "minimum" prepared to deal with an unexpected "Up Leash dog. "

But hey .. if it's turned into a thread for "crap" that may or may not work with "ALL" dogs I can play to!

https://www.youtube.com/user/zakgeorge21

And my favorite :
https://positively.com/ 

Out of curiosity once ... I looked up VP's "advise" on Dog v Cat situations ( up to three dogs and 17 cats and in 15 years "never" a single issue .. so yeah, I get Cat v Dog, VP's advise ... "Find a Trainer!" 

I would doubt a "Clicker" could accomplish that?? I don't "bribe" my dogs I teach them "To Make Good Choices" and" Yank and Crank" free I would add.


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## 6girl (Aug 23, 2015)

My gsd and I are currently in a KMODT class and it's been amazing! I am so impressed with the calming effect it has had on my dog, she is more mannerly 24/7. There is a rescue dog in my class that was started on the clicker method and that dog is a nut job, bouncing around trying to figure out how to get a treat. I've never used the clicker method so can't really speak to it's veracity, but it never made sense to me. I have a horse training background and a lot of that training would be in the same arena (pun intended) as Koehler. I can't imagine trying to train a horse with treats, that would be deadly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

6girl said:


> My gsd and I are currently in a KMODT class and it's been amazing! I am so impressed with the calming effect it has had on my dog, she is more mannerly 24/7. There is a rescue dog in my class that was started on the clicker method and that dog is a nut job, bouncing around trying to figure out how to get a treat. I've never used the clicker method so can't really speak to it's veracity, but it never made sense to me. I have a horse training background and a lot of that training would be in the same arena (pun intended) as Koehler. I can't imagine trying to train a horse with treats, that would be deadly.


LOL ... train a horse with "treats???" That sounds "hysterical!" 

I have seen on some episodes of "The Dog Whisper" some people that can train horses but can't train a freaking dog?? I'm not sure how that happens???

In anycase ... the "threshold training" using KMODT, is pretty obvious. But "Place" not so much?? I know it happens but I don't see it ... "in the Book" as a separate technique?? 

So I'm a little curious about how dogs learn to chill ... through Kohler?? Other than that ... long line, short line ... no line. What week are you in and welcome aboard.


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Koehler triggers a bad reaction in positive only trainers because he says to do things like hang the dog on a choke chain if it doesn't respond. If you have his book, read it and pull out what is useful, then disregard the rest. I personally don't care for treat training for most tasks, but it works well for simple things like sit and down. It's very distracting for other behaviors and when you don't have treats, your dog may ignore you. I've tried all methods. I prefer a balanced approach, so I use a pinch or training collar when I need it and I use treats when I need them. Now, I've moved away from treats and I use verbal praise, which is all my dog needs.
> 
> If you know Koehler and can use it safely, then try it. If I have time, I work my dog 2-3 times a day until his attention starts to wander. 10 minutes at a time is enough. I take months to set a behavior in my dog. With recall, I wait a year before assuming the dog will never ignore a command. Others here have different methods and schedules.
> 
> ...


I agreee, but I'm a Junior on here haha Good luck!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Dare I say that I started private lessons today with what I would call "modified Koehler." My boy is 2.5 years old and has been through lots of clicker training from watching dvds, some private classes with a behaviorist, six months of nose work, some focused heeling from a Schutzhund club, etc. 

Aside from the trainer saying two different times what a great GSD head he has, she commented during the breaks from training, how relaxed and happy he was--Simon had great body language on his breaks by rolling around in the grass, looking up with a great big smile, wagging his tail in a relaxed way, and generally just being goofy.

I am taking the class to tighten up his obedience foundation by improving my leadership skills. Then I want to move onto advanced off leash obedience. 

The one point she really made today was being FAIR to the dog. Always allowing the full 6 feet for the dog to walk off command by moving the leash between hands and behind back. Giving extra leash on turns when heeling so as not to unfairly penalize the dog, etc. Simon had a great time. I learned some great tips. We go back tomorrow.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LOL "conversational leash work":







No one likes the sharp hard turns, without notice these days. Keep us posted.


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