# Renji bloated again- gastropexy?



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Coming out of hiding for this one.. sorry folks, it's been a tough and interesting year, still have a lot on my plate, health is... random, haven't forgotten about stuff I owe.

Awhile back, Renji bloated and we dashed off to the vet. He burped on the way up and the xrays didn't show much of anything but food. The vet said we overfed him, I called BS on that. Several more times after that he did bloat, but GasX deflated him within an hour and we did not rush to a vet. We ALWAYS have GasX on hand and he sometimes had it with meals as preventative. If I don't hear a burp or he acts funny after eating, he gets pilled.

Last night was SCARY. We did an indoor training session, low key stuff, just a bunch of sits and downs but he was soooo hungry and antsy to eat. We ended very well and I fed him a small chicken back/breast portion with some canned mackerel and a whole, crushed egg. This was a small meal for him, the bird was mostly frozen but this typically has no ill affect on him. He ate around 8pm. A few minutes later, he started pacing, frantically licking the air and the carpet (even with snapping noises from his tongue), pacing, and hacking. Popped open two GasX pills and gave him both. 845p, no change, gave him two more. Finally he settled down and stopped pacing and licking but still looked pretty distended. He did burp. Then, he started madly licking and pacing and hacking, this time bringing up white foam. He was very distended and his left side was sticking out more than the right. Stomach was taut and very painful to the touch. This was around 930p. Loaded up and raced to the e-vet which is an hour away. 









That was his stomach. HUGE. Thank goodness, no torsion. I discussed the situation and Renji's history with the vet, he said we need to think about scheduling him for a gastropexy because if he bloats often, he will twist and we need to prevent it. 









I asked about tubing him, they did. The above xray is the result of their tubing of Renji. They said they had big problems tubing him and could only get a little gas and food out, but the above is an improvement. The vet told me that at home, I shouldn't bother tubing him with the raw diet; just pump him full of GasX and if he doesn't deflate, rush in. The GasX seems to buy him enough time but he is strongly recommending the gastropexy.

We are going to schedule it as a prophylactic surgery, but I have some questions:

-What does the surgery involve?
-What is recovery time?
-How much does this typically cost in a non-emergency situation?
-Any experiences with gastropexy breaking down over time?

This morning, he's okay, a little wonky. I checked his gums first thing and they were a little pale I THINK. Took him outside to pee, came back, checked again and checked once more a little bit ago and they have better color. It's so hard to tell with that darn chow mouth of his. He is resting but otherwise is acting almost fine, tried to play earlier, but I'm still worried. I can't drive right now thanks to a massive headache/migraine but I am watching him CLOSELY as the vet said he could bloat again. As soon as we got home, he did get two more GasX.

Thanks all. FYI, simethicone (GasX) is ridiculously safe to give per the vet, so please keep GasX on hand at all times and do not be afraid to pump your dog full of the stuff if you suspect any bloat! Renji is about 45-46 lbs and he had a total of six extra strength GasX pills in less than six hours, four within two hours. Also, I asked the vet if there is anything else we can do to help prevent bloat and he said, in his opinion, all the research about diets and exercising and whatnot is useless- he feels it's primarily genetics which is my opinion after my research and experience (and I also think STRESS is a very big factor as well). Kibble or raw, food or water, exercise or sedentary, if your dog has the genes to bloat, it's going to bloat regardless, so please be ready, know the symptoms. He said their e-vet practice typically gets the dogs that are suddenly bloating and twisting in the middle of the night regardless of food or exercise.


----------



## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

OH NO! Im sorry this happened! Thank God hes ok!!
I would personally get him the surgery. 
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/bloat_prevention_gastropexy_htm.htm
http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-bloat.htm


Im glad hes ok!!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Diana-was just thinking of you guys and Renzi! 

I don't have any advice or information, I think that just prevents the torsion right? Which is good, because it seems like that's what is the worst? I don't know, but with his history, am glad you are here, asking questions. If I had a young dog who had bloated, I would be doing the research and almost 99% likely the surgery from what I can tell. 

I am also glad he is with you and that you have done so well with him. He is one of my all time favorites. 

Please take care.


----------



## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

My Dad had a Chow mix, he lived til like 14 or 15 yr old so I do think maybe i IS a genetic thing? My Dad would give his dog cat food because he liked it so much! I couldnt believe how healthy he was as I struggled with Sashi' ear infections, allergies, changing foods etc!
Neek has given me a couple of scares, he is 4. He acts weird and wants to go outside and eat tons of GRASS nd leaves, etc I bring him in and give him liquid simethecone. (sp) I dont know why he does this but he did it once after I gave him a VERY small dish of ice cream so i thought maybe he was lactose intolerant, he doesnt get it anymore. 
Anyways, I sure am glad your Renji is OK


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

My friend just had her dog gastropexied. He recovered very very quickly. You would not know something had been done by the time he was home the next day.

This was a prophylactic gastropexy and the dog was not ill. Our vet costs here are very reasonable, so it was a several hundred dollars. 

I have not seen any pexies by my vet have a problem. There is another vet in town and every one that I know of that he has done, has failed. So, it is important the skill at this of the particular veterinarian.

I have had two dogs bloat and torsion. One had a gastropexy and had no problems the rest of his life. The second did not survive the torsion. 
Our new puppy will have prophylactic gastropexy as soon as he is old enough without hesitation. Another vet friend of mine just prophylactically pexied his young lab. My vet pexied his female Shepherd recently when he performed her spay. I wish I had done so when my girls were spayed.


----------



## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Years ago I had this surgery performed on one of our dogs. She had eaten a large rock which couldn't pass out of her stomach - while she was under having it removed the vet stapled her tummy.... his suggestion, because even though she had never bloated, she had a propensity for stuffing herself with inappropriate objects (stones, twigs, soap (ugh!) and of course food if she could get to it. We later found out that she had Cushing's Disease, an abnormality of the adrenal glands which often results in pica...) I don't think there is any particular recovery time - your dog will have an abdominal incision, so however long it takes to heal will probably depend on the individual. I think we were just careful about feeding for a while after the surgery, and I suppose she was on antibiotics, but it's been a very long time so I'm not absolutely sure. For the peace of mind it brings I would say go for it - you will never have to worry about torsion again. 

__________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiitng at the Bridge


----------



## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

I really appreciate you sharing this with us, I am very scared of this.
If the dogs is ill how do you get them to want to take a GasX Pill? How do you get them to swallow it? I think I better buy some and have it on hand after reading this.

Hope your Renji will be okay.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

An article about the surgery follows. We don't have access to laproscopic surgery in our town. That would be less invasive but would require the skill needed to do it this way.

http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/gdv.htm

Thanks for the word on the simethicone. I too think genetics plays a big role. My males had very deep chests. If they had any stress around their incident of bloat and torsion, I would not be able to identify it. Normal days, normal meals... plain ol day and week, each one of them.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm so sorry this happened!!!

Something similar happened to Bruiser but it righted itself quickly before I could get in the house and get the Gas-X. When I posted on the board, most people felt he had experienced a partial torsion that thankfully never developed (same symptoms including white foam vomit and he also cried).

I made the decision to have his stomach tacked.

He had to have surgery to remove a tumor so the price I paid was a two for one surgery including a biopsy on the tumor so it's higher than just a stomach tacking alone. 

The pre-surgery exam, full blood screen (both in house and sent out), vaccinations this vet insisted he have, was a couple hundred dollars. The actual surgery for both problems was $700 including the biopsy which ran over $100. 

This was done by a local vet in Ocala.

He had another "episode" about a week ago without the white foam vomit - was eating his supper, all of a sudden stopped, stared running around (did not cry this time). I gave him a Gas-X and he was fine - I made him wait awhile before he could finish his meal.

I'm glad to see you again, hope things get better for you!!!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Jean, your comments mean so much to me, thank you.









We're definitely going to have the surgery done, but being that it's a Sunday I can't call my usual vet to discuss the procedure. Of COURSE this stuff always happens on weekends!

I think it's genetics and stress, personally.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Thanks everyone. I want to look for the laparoscopic option. 

Renji is food motivated enough that he ate all the GasX with food- First two pill liquids were poured onto a piece of pepperoni, second two pills were on a pat of butter and this time I just smashed the butter on the roof of his mouth to force him to lick it, and after we got home that batch was in a teeny bowl of canned mackerel juice and water- I wanted him to have a little liquid to hydrate. 

I think putting the liquid in butter and shoving your hand in your dog's mouth and rubbing it on some surface may be a good idea- forced to deal with it! It's a small amount too so not very cumbersome. Just pierce the gelcaps to get to the liquid or purchase the liquid stuff on its own.

Thanks for the links, I'm reading reading reading.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hi Diana, missed you on the board. Sorry that your return is in the midst of a crisis. No experience with bloat or the surgery you are considering, but just wanted to give you some support and positive thoughts, and hoping for no more issues for Renji. 

Thank you about the information on the Gas-X, I have some at hand, but wasn't sure how much to give, and how to give it, would it ever be needed. 

Does anyone know how the Gas-X works? Does it neutralize the gas? Absorbs it? Allows the alimentary tract to relax enough to release the gas?


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Diana, I have missed you and Renji soooo much! Know that you remain in my thoughts, and especially dear Renji.







Those chow mixes are all about charisma, I think! I haven't any info on gastropexy, just well-wishes for you and Renji. May the surgery be easy, the recovery smooth. The Renji fanclub unites in wishing him the very best recovery!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My thoughts are with you and Renji. I am glad you came back, if only for a bit! May both of you have healing.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is an upsetting thing. I know you don't want to take your eyes off of him!

Another friend had a dog from a long line of dogs with torsion. She said she could finally sleep through the night after his pexy. You are lucky to get this "warning", so to speak. I hope surgery goes very well. It is so much better to do on dog who is healthy rather than on one compromised during torsion.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think the more a dog bloats, the more likely it will torsion at some point. That's based on nothing, but just thinking about things getting looser in there as the stomach stretches out. Could be hogwash?

Wonder if treating for SIBO would make a difference? Use some Tylan for a bit?

Does his stomach often feel full and firm?

One thing for sure, gastroplexy is cheaper than, and easier to recover from full blaot surgery!

I'm glad that he is okay!


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

BoBo had it done when his spleen was removed (after bleeding from hemangiosarcoma). The day after surgery he was marking bushes in front of the hospital.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Lisa, yes I think each episode puts us closer to disaster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simethicone
How GasX (simethicone) works. 

Patti!





















I am so happy that you and Grimmi are back together. You are a model of strength and resilience and caring. If I were half the human being you are, I'd be twice who I am now. You are awesome.









Renji is resting and napping, but he is occasionally coughing hard. I'm hoping it is irritation from the tube. Still watching him closely.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Renji did not eat today. No exercise, no walks longer than crossing the street to pee. He just started licking the carpet and air and hacking. I shoved liquids from six GasX into him. He's not distended yet but he is uncomfortable and pacing.

Watching him SUPER close..... so worried. Right now I can't afford a repeat of last night, but if we have to go, we'll go. Please cross your fingers. Should I crate him to keep him still or is movement better??

Poor Renji.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Anyone know if crating him would be best now or keep him moving? Giving time for the GasX to work. His gums are still looking normal. Financially we're in the pits right now, trying to rectify it, otherwise I'd be in the car right now. Giving him a little bit more time before we go in again. I just don't want to do an emergency gastropexy if we can avoid it- rather pay $600 at a good vet than $2000 with a surgeon I haven't researched.. that's a vent, of course- I'll do what we have to do.

Scared out of my wits right now.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

No advice for you, just wanted to say I'm sorry you're going through this and that I hope Renji is okay.


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I know that my grandparents kept walking the goats when they started bloating. I am assuming that moving them moves the bowels which helps the gas to pass. Maybe he has some form of gastritis that generates gas. Has the vet recommended the Gas-x at regular intervals?


----------



## krispifsu (Dec 23, 2007)

Diana - no advice for you either but just wanted to pass on a bunch of hugs!










Missed seeing you around. PLEASE catch up once you get Mr. Renji on the mend. We started with a new training center but might try to head to the Canine Center in a week or two for the Sat AM walk. Would love to see you and the handsome Renji. 

Lots of well wishes for BOTH of you....


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh my, I hope everything is going okay....


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

We're going in. He's distending and going downhill. Wish us luck.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Prayers for Renji and the vet to do the absolute best by him. For you too, prayers of strength...


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Good luck, Diana! Fingers and paws crossed for Renji.


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Prayers going your way and paws crossed for Renji.


----------



## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Best wishes


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

That mix combo is tough-he can do this. Don't forget about http://www.carecredit.com and http://www.imom.org if you are denied and it is an emergency (if you can access online). 

Can ayone Reiki Renji?








to you all.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Dang... I just saw he's going in.

Hold on Renji... we're all with you!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

You can do this Renji, hang in there.....

DianaM hugs to you!


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMRenji did not eat today. No exercise, no walks longer than crossing the street to pee. He just started licking the carpet and air and hacking. I shoved liquids from six GasX into him. He's not distended yet but he is uncomfortable and pacing.
> 
> Watching him SUPER close..... so worried. Right now I can't afford a repeat of last night, but if we have to go, we'll go. Please cross your fingers. Should I crate him to keep him still or is movement better??
> 
> Poor Renji.


ETA: Just realized you took him in. Sending lots of positive energy out there for Renji and you! 

Just saw this. KEEP HIM MOVING!!!!!! According to my vet (Chama bloated last spring) alternating between Gas X and activated charcoal and keeping them moving are the best things you can do on your own. Wishing you all the best with your sweet Renji!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMWe're going in. He's distending and going downhill. Wish us luck.


This was the latest news at 7:52pm







......keep beaming those positive thoughts folks


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Thanks everyone, you guys have worked your magic! We're home now. Some gas in the tract, nothing twisted, thank goodness. Doc was not really sure what could be going on and said he is definitely moving stuff through; we could see this on the xrays. He said if it continues, we should do an ultrasound and a barium. I asked for a shot of Reglan which he had the first time this started awhile back, and they gave it to him and it immediately started working. I could hear his stomach gurgle and he came out a lot perkier and even pooped a normal poop. Still coughing a little but he's doing much better.

Thanks again everyone. I'll keep you posted on what happens next.


----------



## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

Glad to hear he is ok. That has to be terrifying!

I know this is a bit off topic, but my son was born dead, he was revived within 3 mins after his birth. This set us up for a ton of developmental issues. One of which, he could not digest formula correctly, including special formula we had to get with a perscription. Long and short of it was, we had to give him simethicone daily. I was told by my ped, that it was NOT absorbed into the bloodstream so was safe even for a neborn baby.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Whew. Hope he (and you!) have a better day tomorrow. 

After Chama bloated I gave her slippery elm about 45 minutes before each meal.


----------



## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

So glad he is alright! Hope this gets sorted out quickly.


----------



## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I'm sorry to hear things are so rough with Renji right now.







I don't have any advice, just wanted to wish you both the best.


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I was thinking of you all night. So happy Renji is better. Maybe you can give him gas-x every couple of hours for some time. Also Reglan is available in tablets and my dogs got it when they had stomach problems. I take it myself when I have nausea with the migraine. It is a very effective medication and I don't get side effects.


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-ElperroguapoI'm sorry to hear things are so rough with Renji right now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ditto


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Thinking good thought for you and Renji, Diana. I recall one forummember who walked her dog after each meal, to help move food and gas along. And, gave Gas-x regularly with meals, too. 

Here is hoping that Renji's Gastropexy goes very, very well, and that his recovery is both quick and smooth. More good thoughts coming Renji's way!


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'm glad to hear nothing was twisted! Here's hoping a better day today for Renji.


----------



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I just saw this, I have no great words of advice but I'll keep you in my thoughts.

It's good to see you, even if under such dire circumstances (sp)


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

I would def consider Gastroplexy for Renji. Do you have a Vet School close by that you might be able to go to? That might save you quite a bit of money. They also might have more experience with doing this type of surgery. There is a laproscopic gastroplexy available but the costs of this in private practice might be astronomical. I live in the SF Bay Area and things are generally expensive here. There was one Vet I called that did it laproscopically and he wanted $6,000!!! At the Vet School the price dropped to under $2,000. Open Gastroplexy was much less. 

I wish you and Renji the very best. The tortion is what causes the worst damage so if you can avoid that you'll be steps ahead of the game. Keep at it until you have an understanding as to why he is having such problem with gas buildling up in the first place. There has to be an answer to this. And please keep us posted. Just wondering....are you by chance adding water to his food?


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANDiana-was just thinking of you guys and Renzi!
> 
> I don't have any advice or information, I think that just prevents the torsion right? Which is good, because it seems like that's what is the worst? I don't know, but with his history, am glad you are here, asking questions. If I had a young dog who had bloated, I would be doing the research and almost 99% likely the surgery from what I can tell.
> 
> ...


Exactly, the torsion is what causes the majority of the problems. But when the stomach gets that enlarged it does constrict the blood from leaving and getting to the heart. All of the organs behind the stomach then are in danger of damage.

By tacking the stomach it will avoid it from flipping over onto itself which cuts off oxgen and blood flow to the stomach as well.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMAnyone know if crating him would be best now or keep him moving? Giving time for the GasX to work. His gums are still looking normal. Financially we're in the pits right now, trying to rectify it, otherwise I'd be in the car right now. Giving him a little bit more time before we go in again. I just don't want to do an emergency gastropexy if we can avoid it- rather pay $600 at a good vet than $2000 with a surgeon I haven't researched.. that's a vent, of course- I'll do what we have to do.
> 
> Scared out of my wits right now.


Based on this I would def talk to your Vet about doing this with them. If you end up doing this at a EVet the cost is going to be so much more. Perhaps your Vet would even let you make payments. But do check out Vet Schools in your area. I don't know where your at so I can't make any recommendations.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Thinking of you guys today


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Thank you for your kind words and well wishes, everyone. It's all so much appreciated.









Rosa, I am seriously hoping that laparoscopic surgery does not cost that much. If it does, I'm gonna drop dead! Might have to do it open....







Good idea on calling vet schools, I will check into that. Also, good point on the bloating itself causing problems with the organs. 

I am thinking about giving GasX with each meal or maybe only during times that he appears stressy. Good idea about the slippery elm, too.

Question: I am going to look into CareCredit. I'm off to their website now, but can anyone shoot me any pointers, please?

ETA: Just checked out the CareCredit site, doesn't look too painful. I'm going to apply as soon as I figure out where Renji will have the 'pexy. I would love to hear everyone's CareCredit experiences, if possible! I've never done something like this before.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Oh, and Renji is doing well today. He is pushing toys on me. Little goober.









Got bored over Christmas break. Renji is not that amused.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMOh, and Renji is doing well today. He is pushing toys on me. Little goober.


What a relief!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Very handsome though









I think for bloating, I would go with a charcoal capsule each night before bedtime.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Thank you, Lisa. Where can charcoal caps be bought? What do they do?


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Activated charcoal can be found at many pharmacies and also health food stores. They absorb gas. This is what I used for Chama, alternating with Gas X, when she bloated and anytime she got really gassy. The slippery elm, before meals, did cut down significantly on the problem, btw.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Activated charcoal capsules can be bought at any health food store, or some super markets, and certainly online.

The charcoal can absorb gas, but also other bad things in the digestive tract that shouldn't be there, or might be causing distress (even excess stomach acid). The good thing about charcoal is that it moves stuff out of the system so that the system doesn't have to deal with it.

The only caution is that it will absorb meds and nutrients too, so you want to give it a couple of hours after they have eaten or taken meds. It will turn the stools dark, which is good to know so you don't think something else is going wrong!


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

After Zamboni bloated the first time (which was decompressed via tube & lavage), we gave her Gas-X and took her for walks after every meal. For some reason, night time was when she seemed most inclined to bloat, so she got more Gas-X and a longer walk at bed time. 

She quickly learned that if she started to feel bad, all she had to do was come over and "tell" me, and we'd go for a walk. We often walked around the neighborhood at 3am. We got a treadmill that helped for the nasty rainy weather, but mostly, we walked the neighborhood. 

Apparently, this is what you do with horses with colic? You walk them? 

Simethicone is ridiculously safe. Boni weighed 38 lbs and took sometimes as much as 8-10 Gas-x per day. She didn't seem to have any side effects. Of course, you need to consult your vet on dosage. But I wouldn't hesitate to load my dogs up with Simethicone if they were bloating. After all, what's my option? 

Bloating is painful though. Even managing it the way we did, it's painful. (Although, in between bloat "sessions," the dog seems to feel fine.) Torsion can be deadly. So anything we can do to mitigate the risks at this point for Renji, I would do. 

I'm not so thrilled with laparoscopic pexis. I know all the benefits of laparoscopic surgeries. But please tell the surgeon that you EXPECT him to convert it to a traditional surgery if anything feels "off." With traditional surgery, he can look around and ensure that everything is ok before he closes. It's a lot harder to do so when you're working with scopes. 

Please also have a CBC run, with platelet count, and a clotting test, especially if you're not sure if Renji has Von Willebrand's. Pexis are a major surgery. 

Keeping you both in our thoughts.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Just a weird thought, but I wonder if the diet is deficient in magnesium? That could cause the muscles to contract and perhaps not work properly? 

In general, we are typically VERY careful to balance calcium, not so much with magnesium. Gotta be careful with magnesium though, too much will give the runs. I find with Max, I just give about 1/5 a capsule a day, and his stomach isn't so tense all the time. Any more in the diet, it gives him loose stools.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

I just can't help but wonder why this dog is having such problems with Gas....what can be wrong with his stomach thats causing him to convert all this food to gas? Is there citric acid in his diet? I'm thinking that will convert to gas especially if water is added. Could he have a type of H Pylori for dogs????


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I was thinking the same thing, which was why I thought to treat for SIBO in an earlier post. 

My understanding is that this is a raw-fed dog, so none of the usual candidates apply here?


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Okie dokie, so let's answer a few questions first..

Renji is on a raw diet, so no added citric acid. He primarily gets whole chickens (obviously different parts each day), then chicken quarters, pork necks, used to get a lot of beef heart but has not been lately (think I should add that back in), canned fish, canned (Solid Gold) tripe, organs and stuff, goat and rabbit. Since he does not seem to have the strongest gut, chicken is what we use most. So Lisa, you think I should supplement with Mg? Might be a good idea as he might not get enough organ meat and red meat if I really think about it. I do sometimes add a little water to his meals.

Normally his poops are ridiculously good. About once every other month, maybe less, he'll have some diarrhea, but quickly is back to normal. Turkey is bad, but chicken, beef, pork, goat, and rabbit are good. Good question on the H pylori, I should have that checked. He does cough/sneeze a lot after being on his back, I wonder if he has issues with acid reflux.

On to the plexy- my vet called the specialist place and made it crystal clear about Renji's history. The specialist said the lap plexy is $2000 (yikes) BUT they will examine him for any weak part of the stomach. If there are weaknesses, they will have to open him up and resect the compromised parts.







Probably close to $3000 for that. I am going to call Gainesville and Tampa universities and see what they say. 

You know, now that I REALLY think about it, I don't think he had problems when he was getting beef heart every day................ guess tomorrow I will be buying beef heart.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Also, I just fed Renji a little water, shell-less egg, canned no-added-salt peas, canned mackerel, and four gas-x. I just want him to hydrate up. Not sure if the peas will do any good, but it was just a couple spoons' worth and he normally tolerates them very well. Everything was mashed together in a slurry.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Sweet potato is a good source of magnesium and manganese:



> Quote:
> Stomach acid levels heavily interact synergistically with iron and manganese, whereby the absorption of both minerals is enhanced by higher HCl acid levels, and likewise, an increase in iron or manganese will generally - but not always - result in raised stomach acid levels. Since calcium and magnesium have the exact opposite effect on stomach acid levels, their interaction with iron and manganese have a major impact on medical conditions that are associated with raised or lowered stomach acid levels


http://www.acu-cell.com/femn.html


I'm always worried that we don't drop stomach acid levels too much with dogs that have bloated. We want to move the food out of the stomach quickly. If we drop the acidity of the stomach, the food isn't going to be digested as quickly. But if we raise the acidity too much, that brings a whole other set of problems.

So balancing manganese and magnesium (as well as ensuring that calcium and iron are never far out of balance) is important. 

A favorite drug of mine is Reglan (metoclopramide). It helps to empty the stomach by stimulating the muscles of the GI tract including the muscles of the lower esophageal sphincter, stomach, and small intestine. Its available in pill form and you can get it in injectable form. I personally prefer the injectable form because it's easier to get the EXACT dose that works for the dog (you can tinker up a cc or down a cc, whereas you can't break up pills into such exact measurements). 

I recommend working with an internist for long term management after surgery. You consult with the internist a couple of times, then she supervises "long distance" (via phone and email) as you work with your regular vet. It's efficient because the internist is more knowledgeable so you don't waste time (and therefore money) bumbling around on what *might* work well. 

For example, I've heard often of regular vets prescribing PPIs (Pepcid, Prilosec) for post bloat patients even though:



> Quote:
> The most common reported adverse events associated with PPIs include headache, diarrhea, abdominal pain, and nausea and constipation * and bloating. *


http://www.webgerd.com/PrescribedMedications.htm

There may be a need for such a drug like a PPI or especially Carafate; trauma to the stomach by the bloat and surgery may indicate keeping stomach acid low at first, but this needs to be done by an expert who understands the risks as well, not just someone who is used to suggesting Pepcid for every stomach ailment that walks into his office.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I was drafting my last post when you posted Diana.... Iron could be an issue as much as Magnesium, if he's not eating a lot of beef.

But... a lot about what we know is that it's just genetic. Male dogs with weaker nerves... and genetic.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Yes Lisa, I checked some other posts and it looks like he is only raw fed. SIBO treatment would be a good thought. My concern is some type of stomach infection or condition thats causing him to produce too much gas. From what I've read he should have been placed on antiboitics after the first incident-was he? 

I'm really wondering about H Pylori-but I don't have much of a chance right now to look at that. 

One things almost for sure, if he doesn't get the gastroplexy he's likely to bloat again and torsion could be involved which could be awful. 

I wouldn't worry about getting the surgery done laproscopically or open-do what you can afford. From what I understand the recovery is about the same...sure the incision will hurt more in open (since its a larger incision) but your really saving your dogs life here.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I believe that no abx have been given.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

After my experience, it this were my dog, I'd go for open... that's just me. But that's what I would do. 

I don't care if an open pexi cost MORE.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTI believe that no abx have been given.


So far everything I've been reading say antibotics should be given.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomAfter my experience, it this were my dog, I'd go for open... that's just me. But that's what I would do.
> 
> I don't care if an open pexi cost MORE.


I'm with you. When I decide to get Eli done I will be doing it open instead of Laproscopically.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Rosa, that was my first instinct too. 

I will always wonder if that wouldn't have averted some of Max's problems. His best response was to amoxicillin or doxy, tylan didn"t do much for him. Of course, I didn't treat until long after he torsioned, but he had symptoms all along. This was before I understood GSDs as well as I do now.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

I hope Diana comes back soon. I'd really like to see this guy on something starting NOW (and not have to wait another day)


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

A human friend of mine was in a coma for months after a laproscopic surgery left a leak and led to sepsis and a stroke. I would prefer open surgery too, regardless of the cost.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

No abx post-bloat but he was on abx about a month or so ago for something else, can't remember what it was now. It was about a three week treatment.... maybe cipro or doxy?

Open surgery it is. As soon as the vet mentioned about the compromised stomach, that was my first thought, too. 

I wish I would have known about abx and bloat! Vet didn't make a peep about it. I'm going to call and ask when they open tomorrow and see if they can call me in a script.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Are they closed for the day??? If not, CALL NOW sweetie. I'm very worried about your dog and I know you are as well. You went to ER Vet the other night, you can call them and they can do a script for antibotics.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

As the night settles in, Diana, all I can suggest is dinner, then walk. Then a walk before bedtime. No sniffing, just cruising up and down the streets. Nothing crazy vigorous, but moving at a good clip. Enjoy your time together. Get some fresh







air, and some good exercise. 

For us, it helped prevent many episodes. I'm sure of it. 

Bundle up. And know we're thinking of you.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomAs the night settles in, Diana, all I can suggest is dinner, then walk. Then a walk before bedtime. No sniffing, just cruising up and down the streets. Nothing crazy vigorous, but moving at a good clip. Enjoy your time together. Get some fresh
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said it better.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DianaM...
> Open surgery it is. As soon as the vet mentioned about the compromised stomach, that was my first thought, too.


If you want the name and number of the vet who did Bruiser's gastropexy in Ocala I'll PM you. As I mendtioned in my prior post, the price I quoted included two different surgical procedures so I'm not sure how much the gastropexy alone runs.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Gayle, please do PM me! I would LOVE recommendations!

Renji is doing well tonight. Due to the weather and my health, I cannot get outside much but we did do some walking. He is curled up and sleeping. Because I feel he triggers more from stress, I have to be careful about being outside. If he sees other people and other dogs, he reacts and stresses.







I really wish we had somewhere private we can go to walk around where he can stop worrying about the world.

Saturday night after he woke up from sedation, they told me I had to go back to get him because he wouldn't let anyone get near him. I went back there to see him laying down with his head up in a glazed stare. I didn't dare reach in myself, I just crouched down and talked to him like nothing was wrong and he finally crept out, but man, he was so stressed out, he just looked plain freaky. The first and only time we had to board him, just one night, he wouldn't allow anyone else to get him- we had to go back there and again it took awhile for him to come out. He's such a stressball.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

DianaM, have you tried any herbal claming remedies for Renji. It might help if you can lower his stress level. 

DeeDee responds well to the DAP plugin and in higher stress times I have found TranquilTabs http://www.entirelypets.com/tranquil60.html

I have no knowledge or experience with bloat. Just thinking if maybe you could find something to help take the stress down if might be helpful.

Val


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Val, good ideas. I should look into homeopathy. Right now, I don't dare let him have grains in anything more than a teeny quantity once in a purple polka-dotted moon. Grains make him lose his brain. I will check into these calming herbs and the DAP. Thank you.









Any other good calming herbs? What about using melatonin?


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Melatonin seems to work for some dogs and not others. Didn't do a darn thing for DeeDee. But I have found the same thing with herbals, some work for some dogs and not others. Sort of a trail and error.

I just checked the bottle on the TranquilTabs and it doesn't show any inactive ingredients and no grains listed.

Also just a thought, you posted that Renji does good on Beef Heart have you tried just some beef meals? 

Val


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Diana,

For homeopathy you would want to use Nux Vomica and Argentrum Nitricum. In the acute situations you would want Carbo Vegetabilis. Chama responded really well to homeopathy when she bloated and my cat Cleo (who seems to have a brush with death every few months lately) also responds well to homeopathy.


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I had two dogs that with behavioral issues that did not seem to respond to training. One was dog/people aggression and the other one was extremely fearful. In desparation I tried antidepressants and I feel that it worked. The trainer was very much against it and she noticed a big positive change in the dog. When we came to the training class after starting the antidepressant, she immediately asked whether the dog was on something. Just an idea to consider.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Ok going to find a homeopathic vet and find some goodies there. May do antidepressants... Maybe the purple happy pill.







Val, no all beef diets- there is no beef bone small enough for him. Mix chick and beef has been great, though. I am going back to that starting tonight. 

We have been approved for CareCredit. I called Gainesville vet school, they estimate about a grand. I'm going to go there unless anyone has any bad experiences?


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Did you ask about the antibotics?


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Shoot no, that blew my brain. Goldfish memory. 

But evaluation and surgery is this next tuesday and Wednesday. I don't want to mess with surgery so we will leave it as is.


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

I don't mean to scare you but if there is an infection going on wouldn't it be safer to deal with that now? I'm not sure if this is something that would show up on a standard blood (this type of infection that is) but if his white blood cell count is high from fighting an infection that might put off the surgery right? 

Either way I wish you and Renji the very best. Please keep us posted.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm with you Rosa.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

True.... ok calling first thing, noting that in the phone so silly me won't forget.

Picked up beef heart, calf's liver, chicken liver, baby spinach, and soybeans. Going to mix the liver, a little spinach, some soybeans, and some kidneys into a slurry for the dog. I know spinach has a lot of oxalates but I won't be adding much. I am not yet sure on the soybeans but both of these are high in magnesium. I also picked up Mg supplement tablets as they might even help me with my issues... maybe I can toss some in for the dog. Any yeas or nays? I know soy can be an allergen, trying to weigh pros and cons here.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Soy is kind of legume-y, it kind of makes dogs, uh, gassy, when it's in a kibble. Even pureed or an extract, I might think soy might up the risk of gas. The spinach sounds good, and heart, liver, etc. Not sure what other foods to consider. You are doing an amazing job with Renji's care!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Thanks, Patti. I've decided to bogart all the soybeans for myself.







The spinach I do have to be careful with because I don't want to give him oxalate/calcium problems but I will add some. I'd prefer to do that instead of give supplements, but today I added about 60 mg of magnesium. We'll see how that goes. I'm going to start taking some myself because I read that a Mg deficiency could be causing a lot of MY problems- acid reflux, various pains, asthma, headaches, etc.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I have already had some really good recommendations on University of Florida - Gainesville's veterinary college, so I'm confident everything will go well. Once all is said and done, I will post all the details and the cost for educational purposes.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Diana, I am so glad that you have good vets, good support! Please know that you are very cared about here-- as is sweet Renji.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I wouldn't worry too much about oxalates. I think you have to seriously overfeed them for them to be a concern. And honestly, bloat issues WAY outweigh urinary concerns. 

We need to be more concerned about balancing iron and calcium (and then calcium and zinc). They offset each other's absorption, so feed separately to the extent possible.

Along the lines of what causes gas, spinach could. Steam it, but let it lie in a bed of water as you do. That should help break down the cellulose some more. Then serve with the water, so you don't lose the nutrients. 

Hang in there Diana. When your head feels like it's going to explode, that means you've just about got a grasp on all of this.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I was giving my dog spinach for the Mg as part of his diet until I switched to Mg capsules with powder inside. I was feeding the frozen, shredded spinach and that worked well with no additional work done to it as it comes out of the box fairly mushy.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Diana, how's Renji doing today?


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

checking in.....

(haven't been able to post, the board changed and my phone is locked out!!)


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Pupdate!

We are not on abx but Renji is doing awesome right now (actually I haven't heard back from my vet which really sucks but I also was away at a conference for work.... great dang timing.....). He is acting perfectly normal. We just took him to the fields to run and play Chuck-It and I haven't seen him so happy and bouncy in awhile.







Got his nails trimmed (go Dremel!) and afterward I bathed him so he'll be clean for surgery (he got to roll in dirt and romp in cow pies). Ok so Bath Day is a few days before the event but today was his last romp and from here on out it's just going to be leash walks. 

I am feeding him chicken parts or pork necks, beef heart, and calf liver, with other goodies thrown in depending on the day. This seems to do him well as his poops are fantastic. I've also been using Beano. Right now he is acting completely normal, just as he should be acting. 

So far, so good. The coughing has subsided which I think was due to acid reflux exacerbated by the tubing and gastric lavage. I suspect the diet change is doing a good thing for him, maybe it was me causing some of the problems. Live and learn. I'll update as events warrant. 

Everyone, thank you SOOOOOOOO MUCH for all advice and help.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Great to hear the positive update!

So what exactly are you doing differently?


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

The past few days he was fed in the morning because of the conference. I also have added beef heart and calf's liver and occasional Mg supplementation. I'm going to have to keep track long term, but I think regardless of what he eats he will always have some beef heart and possibly calf's liver. 

Here is the profile for calf's liver:
http://whfoods.org/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=129#nutritionalprofile

The only thing I am concerned about here is the high copper. Any thoughts? I love how the folate and selenium are high. I may have to either alternate with another liver or only give this every other day due to the high copper.

As for the morning feedings, I can only do this when DF is home during the day. If his work schedules him for shifts concurrent to mine, I must feed Renji in the evening. He just ate right now- pork necks, beef heart, calf liver, canned mackerel, fish oil, vit E, less than 1/4 Mg tablet.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

And you also added the Beano? Anything else added? Are you giving the beano with each meal?


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

No, not giving the Beano at each meal. Actually, for the past few days, no GasX, either. Tonight he was very chill. Slept most of the night but wakes up and walks over if we move. Today was his first big run after the bloat incident and I ran him hard. This is absolutely how he should be acting. 

We'll see how the next few months go. He will still bloat despite the surgery but if we don't see any gassy episodes, I would pin it on a nutrient deficiency of some sort.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am so pleased to hear that he's feeling better. And here's hoping for an easy recovery from the surgery!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I am going to steam spinach, romaine lettuce, and a few brussel sprouts, mash in a blender, then freeze in an ice cube tray. These veggies provide a lot of good nutrients that Renji could use. I'm not going to add a lot of sprouts as those can be gassy, just a couple so there is a small hit of their vitamins. Brussel sprouts actually have similar vitamins to liver, strangely enough.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Leave out the spinach and substitute kale. It has far more vitamins. I puree leafy greens for the dogs and feed them raw and it has never caused them digestive problems.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I couldn't find kale over here the last time I went but when this batch is done, I'll hunt down the kale.

Today he ate some chicken breast w/ back and ribs, chicken wing, calf liver, beef heart, and some of the mixture which also had organic raw apple cider vinegar and carrots mixed in, plus a wee shot of that super healthy veggie juice (not V8... cough ick cough). So far so good, he is resting, he burped a little, crossing fingers that today will also be uneventful.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am glad to hear the Renji is doing better. Fingers crossed.

Val


----------



## Woodreb (Oct 27, 2008)

Maybe you could get collard greens if you can't find kale. They're from the same family.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Collard greens I can definitely get, good idea! Okay so Renji has the pudding poops today. One soft but formed pile and later on came the butterscotch pudding... blech. What was different? That Mg pill part I gave him yesterday! I think he and I have the same problems with Mg pills. So no more Mg pills ever! Just food sources from now on.







He is otherwise acting fine. Yesterday he did not have any veggie mix so I know it's not that. 

I'll take squishy







over the bloats any day of the week!

Is anyone interested in a day by day dietary log with any notes on gastric upsets/bloats and what exactly I feed him?


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yeah, it only seems to take a bit of magnesium. I have capsules here, and I used two capsules for the whole week - I open them up and put "just a bit" in for each day. There is a noticeable difference when I don't do that, and a noticeable difference when I put too much! For you, you might just want to make sure that your calcium supplement contains magnesium, and isn't straight calcium?

I am finding it fascinating that he was having so much trouble, and suddenly seems to be better with these changes. There have been no bloat flairups at all?

I think for me, something like a weekly synopsis works better than day-by-day


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I use collard greens and chard as well. And I eat all of that yummy stuff too!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

No bloat flare-ups but he's gone weeks without issues. It's still too early to tell.

Lisa, my multivitamin has some Mg. I think for Renji I will stick to dietary sources and for me, maybe I will try taking 1/4 pill.... or not, the affects were horrible


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm guessing that multivitamins don't have that much, and if you are taking calcium, then that knocks your CA:Mg ratio out of wack. I actually have had trouble finding a good human product that I like, so they must be messing with magnesium sources too, the way everything else is becoming adulterated









I do hope that it's a dietary issue and that it's fixed


----------



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Very glad to hear Renji is doing better!!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

We're all packed and heading up for his evaluation today. No idea if Renji will be staying in our hotel room tonight or if he will get admitted to start IVs. Yesterday was his last meal and he had a HUGE walk afterward. No further issues thus far and Renji is doing well (and being a big brat on the walks... I saw Lies's Weenie Walker, watch our, Renji!







Just Kidding!) I'll keep everyone posted.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

Good luck today!


----------



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

_*Zooming good thoughts your way*_


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

The estimate so far, with today's evaluation and tomorrow's procedure AND hip xrays just to see is UNDER $1000! Wow not bad! So far so good.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Well, that would be nice! Hoping for all good things for you guys.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

We're in the hotel room now. They said it would be best if we keep Renji for the night to ease his stress. Everyone there was GREAT with Renji. They made allowances for his dog aggression and were very gentle and easygoing with him. They suggested the laparoscopic surgery first but I asked for the open surgery which they were also going to talk to me about. So yes, we are doing open surgery and they will do a close check of everything. They are doing bloodwork as well. I was impressed with how thorough they are! They suggested we feed Renji a light meal before midnight tonight, so he had two small cans of Natural Balance duck and venison, both he tolerates very well. So far I am very pleased with University of Florida - Gainesville's Vet College small animal clinic (whew, mouthful). 

We drop Renji off tomorrow morning between 7a-730a for his surgery.


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Mary Jane


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Fingers and paws are crossed.....wishing you both the very best. Please keep us updated.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Keeping you and Renji on my sending healting calming thoughts to for tommorow.

Val


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm really glad that things are going so well! Best of luck,we'll be thinking of you!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Thank you everyone.









Renji was dropped off a little over an hour ago. They will call me as soon as he gets out and then an update later on. We are not sure if we are taking him home tonight or not. I'd rather he stay at the hospital but he stresses so much that even the vets feel he might do better with us at the hotel. Chances are they will keep him pretty well sedated so they can keep him the night for monitoring.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I bet they will keep him for the night, but I could be wrong.

I always hate waiting when they are getting worked on - hang in there!


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

More thoughts and prayers are sent your way.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Renji is out of surgery; it went very well, no organ issues. Unfortunately he does seem to have laxity and subluxation in the hips. They confirmed my suspicion by doing a certain range of motion test. They are taking him into radiology right now and later today I will get to see the xrays.

We have the opportunity to visit him but I wonder if that would be too much stress?


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I would visit him, and when you leave, just explain to him what is going on. Maybe I'm nuts, but I think it helps them.

I'm glad that the surgery went very well! At least with the hips, you can do stuff with supplements and alternative care. When you post about that on the board, do be sure to say what kind of supplements you are using, etc.

Such a relief for the surgery to be done - that's a huge stress over with!


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Glad to hear his surgery went well.


----------



## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Just go in & out with as little emotion/commotion as possible - like he's at a friends having the best time ever & you just dropped in to say Hi - & he'll be so much happier









It's so great to have a good vet team on board









If you feel comfortable about having him at the motel & the vets feel it would be better for him, I would - ask for details on how they would monitor him through the night & do the same: I assume you can crate him quietly & the clinic is very close by in case of anything untoward happening.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

They are keeping him the night. We did not get to see him but that's ok, I would just let him relax and not worry. The recovery is going well. That's the good news. 

Bad news though. Bilateral hip dysplasia, left worse than right. Tomorrow I will see the xrays. No arthritis yet and he may be able to be medically managed for life. When they opened him, they noticed the liver was discolored. It normalized later on in the procedure but that was strange. 

Now the bad news. A lump on or by the spleen. They biopsied it. I point blank asked about hemangiosarcoma and they said it is a
concern but also could be a random nothing. Results come back Friday or Monday. I am so worried now. 

At least the surgery went well and the bloat-related
concerns are fine.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Be sure to get a copy on a CD of the xrays to take with you. When I had Indy at the university, I had to fight for one - I told them, you're the University of CA, certainly if my vet can do it, you can do it too? Couldn't believe that it was such a pain. $25 later, I had the xrays. The vet can access them online, I just like to have copies of everything....

Wow, just read the rest of the post, didn't expect any of that....

As for the liver, a good liver support should help after the surgery. As for the spleen, oh my goodness, what a complete shock , I sure hope it's not hemangio. IF it is, how lucky to have caught this early, but I sooooooo hope it's just a funny spot.

No way around it, I'm sure you will be on pins and needles until you find out, I'm so sorry


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Lisa, they said they will have copies for us. They also made copies of our discs to keep on their file. They are fantastic here.

I'm just stupidly worried about that splenic lump.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good about the xray.

I guess it does no good telling you that worrying won't help









I would be worried too, but I sure hope that it's just something goofy. These darn dogs get goofy stuff all the time, and they just like to worry us


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

I know very little about hemangio, not even how it manifests. The vet said it was a lump of splenic tissue that is sitting right next to (or on?) the spleen... doesn't make sense.


----------



## LJsMom (Jan 6, 2008)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Maybe the spleen had some damage from the repeated bloats? When Max bloated, he had some vessels that pulled away from the spleen. I think I will choose to believe that version of the story, until told otherwise!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Well, they said it was a lump and they biopsied it right then and there...







They said there were no bloat-related issues. 

Are there any other causes for random lumps on the spleen or the spleen's viscera??? Are benign lumps common here?


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Darn it, I kinda liked my made up story, it made me feel better!

I'm outta my league here....hope other folks will be able to provide some issues....

When I think of spleen, the only other thing I can think of is tick disease, or some other weird thing like tularemia. But those might be lesions, which may be different than lumps....


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Time for a new topic, I guess.... thanks Lisa and everyone.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Just reading this. I'm so sorry and understand your worry.









Do they think the lump is what has been causing him to bloat?


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Ruth, I will ask that question. Wouldn't that be interesting...


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

The reason I ask is because Chama bloated when she was 14. The vet said at her age it was likely there was something causing the bloat, like a tumor. In her case it turned out to be an isolated incident but my friend had the same thing happen with her dog (tortion actually) and when they opened him up to do the surgery they found cancer everywhere. I also remember that when Jean's Kramer bloated they opened him up and found a tumor. In his case they removed it and that bought him some good time. 

I think it could definitely be benign but the important thing is to get it out of there so that it doesn't rupture.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Ruth, that's very interesting. I am not sure if they just biopsied the lump or if they excised it altogether. 

Good news: Renji is doing well and we can pick him up between 12p-2p. The student vet will call when we can come.







He says the stitches look good but he is very sensitive in that area. They are keeping him aced to keep him as calm as possible. I will post the grand total of everything here when all is done.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

Do you have some Arnica?


----------



## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

I'm so happy he gets to go home today.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

We are at home now. The incision looks beautiful and Renji looks totally sad and pathetic, poor thing. He's on his bed in his crate right now. We picked up some Wellness canned for him to eat for the rest of today and maybe even part of tomorrow just to ease him in. Otherwise, he can be fed his normal raw diet except we have to split it into four or five meals for the next two weeks. Thereafter, they are recommending twice or three times daily meals. I think we will do two times a day and see how that works out. I suppose it is a good sign that Renji is ravenously hungry and wanted to play with his toys.









Thank you everyone for your help and support!









Lisa, what's Arnica?


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Gastropexy Grand Total $$*

Gastropexy (open) + hip xrays (two or three views) + Tramadol + Acepromazine + Elizabethan collar + 1.5 days/1 night hospital stay + biopsy + bloodwork at what is considered the third best veterinary school in the country = Just under $1200. Woo hoo!

Of course the stitch removal will be a separate fee but that's not too bad.







They were SOOOOO good to us. Incidentally an FHO is about $1800 per hip there but a THR is $5000-$6000 per hip.... egad. But I am EXTREMELY pleased with how UF Gainesville treated Renji and us, they did a fabulous job and was very understanding of his temperament. We will definitely go back if we need any further major procedures done.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

*Re: Gastropexy Grand Total $$*

I just got home a few hours ago and caught up with Renji's surgery and biopsy.

Glad everything went well at the University - that price sounds very reasonable. I know I've always been happy with them!

Sending prayers and warm thoughts that the biopsy comes back with good news.

Hugs!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*



> Originally Posted By: DianaMLisa, what's Arnica?


Arnica is a homeopathic remedy that will help with pain and muscle trauma. After Max bloated, I used Metacam maybe once, found it didn't work nearly as well as the Arnica. I also used it for my neice when she broke her back - it got her off the morphine.

It comes in little pellets at the health food store. You want at least a 30C potency. If they have a 200C potency, that would be better. I used a 1M potency for severe trauma, for Max after the bloat, but you have to get that via mail order.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: 'Pexy ok, spleen lump*

I'm glad that Renji is home. I would stick with the 30c potency for the Arnica.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Renji is having a tough night. We're about an hour and a half from his next pain pill. I gave him a quarter pill of ace as a half really knocks him out hard. He doesn't want to lay down and is acting completely uncomfortable and panting a little much. I know he has to poop but he's reluctant to do so. I'm thinking he's just itchy and hurty. Any ideas? The incision site looks fantastic, by the way.

I will probably give his pain pill a little early. Poor thing.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

I'm so very sorry, Diana. May Renji pass his poop easily, and the night easily, too. He's probably just healing, is ouchy for now, and giving his pain meds a bit early isn't a bad thing. You'll both rest well tonight, I am sure. Sorry no real sage healthcare advice, just wished you to know that Renji is warmly held in my thoughts! (you too, of course!







)


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Can you give them a call? I would just to make sure that is normal. Kramer was in an x-pen after his bloat/torsion/tacking/tumor extravaganza, but seemed to recover easily with very little pain management. 

I have a new worry for abdominal surgeries with the adhesions that Kyah had. Sorry to give you something awful to think of. But that's what I do.







She went from eating to not, still drank, and vomiting. It happened (well the adhesions didn't but the symptoms did) in one afternoon. 

Really I hope that doesn't worry you, but I always think oh, toe hurts, gout, instead of new shoe, ya know? 

Please take care and great job with him as always.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

He's still eating no problem. Looks like it's the stitches. I asked him to lay down, he did very reluctantly, then a bounced up looking miserable and tried to itch by the stitches. When I lightly scritch him over there, he acts so relieved. He was otherwise doing pretty well but if I judge correctly, this should be the time where stuff starts to get really funky and itchy. Some of the stitch strands are pretty long and pokey-looking now. 

I tried calling and it's closed except for emergencies. Going to let this pain pill kick in and if there is no change, I'll call and worm my way through the late night system.

Thanks all.


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

No great ideas here. I just used a high potency Arnica for Max's pain, didn't need anything else.

For the itchiness, I used some aloe vera gel, sparingly.

There isn't any need for some gas-x right now, is there? Is his stomach feely bloaty at all?

You might want to check if constipation is one of the side effects of the meds? If so, maybe supplement with some flax, or pumpkin, or some food with magnesium in it







(no mag supps though, too harsh for him now!), to keep things moving...

Max used to always pant when he had to have a bowel movement - hopes that it here too.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Yeah Renji definitely has a poop festering in there. Soon I'm going to take him back outside to see if the pain pill has kicked in enough. Tramadol is a narcotic which means it does promote constipation, but his poops have been great.

Please, some







promoting thoughts for Renji!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

He JUST laid down.... whew! Pain pills have kicked in. Maybe he can rest awhile and then have a successful poop.

ETA: He fell asleep. Poor baby was probably just really uncomfortable and just wanted to sleep.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

He jumped up again and is looking miserable. After he jumped up he closely inspected the bed. He did this before, too. I think he thinks the bed is poking him. I feel so bad for him.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Poor Renji.







No advice just a big hug for you and for both of you.


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*






















How's he feeling this morning - calmed down/resting or still acting antsy? Hope he's doing better.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Hope he's feeling better. I just read the start of the thread & the last page.

One thought - nothing spicy like pepperoni for a dog prone to stomach problems.

another - if he has a pain patch or if the pain meds are similiar, yes they cause constipation. To prevent this, a vet recommended we use a can of tuna in oil per meal.

yet another - feed him more small meals (you were going to try two and I am sorry no one waded in here before surgery to suggest feeding small meals) try for three if you can.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Middle, the two meals are for post-healing and after the stitches come out. Since the surgery, he gets about 4-7 small meals a day.







He is not constipated, he did a HUGE poop today, I think he was just farting from the canned food. Thank goodness he is still moving. I also try to avoid spicy foods but that pepp was the closest thing I had on hand to give him the gasx. I wanted to make darn sure he'd eat it. I have some oils I can add if his poops start to get a little too hard.

Renji is doing much better today. He's just very uncomfortable from the stitches. Some of the threads stick out nearly an inch so I'm sure that is driving him batty. But yes, he pooped a normal poop and is otherwise well and eating. I tried to get him off the ace but since the stitches are really getting bothersome we are giving both ace and tramadol to keep him comfy and help him to relax and rest. He has a look of total misery in his face and is soaking up any attention he can.
















to everyone!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

So Renji is doing this "smoker's cough" snorty thing. I also noticed his nose is dry. What's up? He's quite hydrated since he pees like a racehorse when I take him out. Gums look good.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Kennel cough? He could have picked it up at the vets. 

The poor guy!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

The coughing pretty much stopped. Would not be surprised if he picked up a bug but also not surprised if it's a little acid reflux. He's doing ok right now, just kind of meandering around in misery. Almost time for more tramadol/ace.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Poor sweetie pie Renji. My hope is that today is his turning point in the recovery and he begins to become a handful again.







Renji is so loveable, and you are doing all the right things for him. More good thoughts flowing Renji's way!


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Aww Renji, I"m hoping you have a better night tonight. Otti was pretty uncomfortable too when he had to wear the cone. I think it took 3 or 4 nights before he stopped pacing around trying to get comfortable and bashing the cone into eveyrthing.


----------



## Skye'sMom (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Good thoughts for Renji to have a better day and night and for mom to get some rest.

Our dogs get better and we get run down from the worry and lack of sleep.

Heal, Renji!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

I really appreciate all the kind words and support, everyone! It's so sad and amusing to see Renji walk around then stop in a random location in the room, stand totally still with tail dangling and head down, looking like his face is going to melt out of the cone. Poor tough boy is a total weenie right now but I don't blame him.

He's doing fine, it's just the stitches that are seriously bugging him. He's peeing great, pooping normally, still has a heck of an appetite, just those darn pokey stitches keep bugging him. 

We are going to schedule removal for the following Tuesday.







Will he be put under for this??


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Diana, can you trim them down to a shorter length? Very carefully of course! 

He shouldn't be put under - I have never seen it done for stitch removal, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Can I??? I'd love to....


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

I dunno...I've never done it...


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

As long as you don't cut it too short so the stitch can undo itself....


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

That is so what I am worried about.... when I had stitches in my mouth, I would spend hours trimming them when they would dissolve and get all pokey, but that was me and I could deal with the consequences... I did it for DF too when he had stitches.

My luck I'll trim a little off the top and the next morning Renji is laying next to his insides.


----------



## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*



> Originally Posted By: DianaM.....
> My luck I'll trim a little off the top and the next morning Renji is laying next to his insides.


Geez thanks for that image
















I hope he is feeling better.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Renji is feeling much better. He is getting used to it, I guess.

And.........

Biopsy results = BENIGN!







Just a piece of spleen that broke off of the mothership.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

What a HUGE relief!


----------



## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*



> Originally Posted By: DianaMBiopsy results = BENIGN!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yowza, great day for biopsy and pathology reports on the health board tonight, wonderful to hear


----------



## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*

Great news!!


----------



## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*








That's great news!!!!


----------



## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

*Re: Rough night in healing process*



> Originally Posted By: DianaMRenji is feeling much better. He is getting used to it, I guess.
> 
> And.........
> 
> ...


----------

