# Breeding Ethics / Questions



## BenderR (Mar 13, 2013)

Hello - long time lurker new member. Let's cut right to the chase

I have a 2 year old German Shepherd (black/tan). She is a long hair shepherd with above average traits (very much the pick of the liter), She is AKC PAL/IP registered. Very excellent temperment, above average work drive, very easily trained. (we taught her to crawl under fences and picnic tables in 45 seconds with a light push on her back off the down command and motioned her forward while saying "crawl" "good girl" "crawl" just to give an idea of this dogs intelligence levels. A year after we purchased her we decided it was time to look for another puppy - a companion so to speak. We met up with a breeder for all black Czech Shepherds. Again - we pretty much had pick of the litter the breeder was holding "the pick male" for someone but was obviously new to puppy breeding and had no idea what too look for she was going off of weight gained, and not whom all the puppies where following and who ate first, and many other things you find in an above average puppy. So we obtained a very special male as well with very of the same characteristics, except better - he is very agile, is just as easily trained. He is full AKC registered.

My question being several things -

Yes i know it is shunned upon to own both male and female for a breed, but I do feel as both these dogs are from such great proven blood lines it'd be great.

My main question is - my male had one testicle that never descended - he just hit about a year, and nothing has dropped we're going to get the surgery too get the non descended testicle either dropped or removed. But how can this effect puppies if at all? He was the only male in his liter of 10 with 4 other males that had this issue. 

Should I leave the other testical in tact for a "home breed," or remove both testicals and search for another stud?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

A dog with cryptorchidism should never be bred. Neuter your male. Retained testes can turn cancerous with greater frequency. 

Read the recommended pre-recs for breeding, and familiarize yourself further with the breed before you consider doing anything. What lines are the dogs? What is the pedigree? How have you proved your dog's abilities? (Sorry crawling under a fence on command isn't a tangible test for breeding worth) What are the hip/elbow scores? What do you know about the dam/sire? How did they produce? Grandparents? Greatgrandparents? The dogs may come from good bloodlines, but what have you done to prove the breeding dogs? Additional health tests - DM? Go deeper into the breed, and educate yourself further before considering breeding - it is the responsible thing to do...

Thinking About Becoming A Breeder? - German Shepherd Dog Forums
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would neuter the male when he is mature and not use him for breeding. There are plenty of awesome studs out there. It's very cheap, sometimes even free, to find a really nice stud that has show title, working title, all health certs, and free from genetic problems. Unless this male brings something absolutely phenomenal to the table I would not consider it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My understanding is also that retained testicles are a simple recessive and if your dog is a cryptorchid, he WILL pass that gene along and how it will play out depends on whether or not the dam also carries the gene. The fact that the others had them drop just means they got the luck of the draw.

Decent flowchart here on thinking about breeding:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Your female is registered under the PAL/IP system which means she is not a registered purebred. Please do not breed her.
Have your male neutered.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Great catch Lee - completely missed that...

Purebred Alternative Listing/Indefinite Listing Privilege
Your litter would never be registrable with the AKC as the mother is not AKC registered...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I was always amazed at how many successful competitors in AKC events had spayed/neutered pets in addition to the dogs they competed with. In talking with people, I learned that many, many, many people were first involved in competition with a dog that didn't hold up. They spayed/neutered the dog, used the connections they had forged to get hooked up with a good breeder and carried on with their competition goals. 

There are very, very few people who discover that they have a winning dog right out of the box. What they do find is a great attraction to the sport and a desire to be involved. So they recalibrate how they will reach their goals and start again with a dog more appropriate.

OP, neuter your male. If your female has a PAL/ILP registration, she would be spayed already. Dip your toes in the various sport venues, find the one that really speaks to you and then find a breeder who produces the type of dog that does well in your sport and start your breeding program there, with a dog that can compete in your sport and prove itself worthy of being breed. And honor your current dogs for getting you started on the path, even though you ended up doing the right thing for the breed and those dogs by not breeding them.
Sheilah


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That is a good catch. I just looked because I thought that AKC required spayed or neutered to be listed PAL and it does.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADPAL1.pdf


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

Well d'uh! 
I forgot that too!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

How does AKC ask that you prove the dog is spayed or neutered? I took a look at the application, and all you have to do is provide a signature that the animal was altered.
http://images.akc.org/pdf/ADPAL1.pdf

But if the AKC does find out any information on the PAL registration was falsified, the PAL reg will be voided. OP: did the breeder register the dog with PAL and sell the dog to you as registered?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

So you have a female that is not a registered purebred with documented lineage and thus no knowledge of her bloodlines, pedigree or background, who is registered through the PAL/ILP system which requires dogs to be spayed/neutered yet she isn't so apparently someone lied on her PAL/ILP application.

And a male from a breeder who didn't know what she was doing, who is cryptorchid.

Does either the male or the female have any sort of temperament testing or performance title? As others have said, teaching basic obedience and tricks is no where near sufficient proof of temperament and nerve for breeding. Does either have health clearances, at least hip and elbow certifications at minimum? 

Even if the answers to those things are yes, which they don't seem to be, I do not think this is an appropriate breeding pair. The cryptorchid male should not be bred. Rather than look for another stud for the female, I wouldn't consider breeding her at all. A female without a real registration and pedigree, health clearances and some sort of objective temperament testing shouldn't be bred either.


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

If you are thinking that the breeder of the male was new to breeding, and seems like they didn't know what they were doing, that is reason enough to not breed the male. Also breeding a cryptorchid male is a big no-no. That is a genetic fault that can be passed on and cause issues in future generations. If your female is a long coat, that is also a fault per the GSD standard. This breed already has so many issues, so breeding a dog that does not even fit the standard to a dog who has a genetic issue is just not a good idea at all. It's only adding to the problem. Just keep them as pets and have them spayed and neutered.


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## BenderR (Mar 13, 2013)

Seems I came to the correct place for answers. The male will be neutered this next Thursday fully. We had hoped the testical would descend but unfortunately it did not. With the strangulation concerns and reading what I just read i feel its the best decision. I find it interesting the cryptorchid recessive trait become prepubescent in dogs that have it. I sincerly appreciate everyones input on that subject. 

The falsification of AKC PAL/IP paperwork will be dealt with. I never even read over the paperwork it was given to be from the breeder. As my female just came outta heat (she wears diapers when outta kennel and crate and around male) I know for a fact she is not spayed. We do have the documented lineage on her - the breeder was getting out of the community and never registered a male he bred that he later used on another female that was AKC registered. 

I do find it very important too say, my goals for breeding are simply too have more of my own shepherds and too give the remaining puppies too family for free. We want too breed once every decade or so from breeders with good pedigree dogs. We are not looking for money, we just want more dogs for ourselves and too bless some family who just simply can't afford the price of a good lineage dog. But we still want too apply a very high standard too our own dog though in the same breathe. 

I will be contacting and looking into temperment testing, getting health clearances, x-ray.

This has been an eye opening experience, and i appreciate the years of experience that have commented on my post. thanks again for your help - time to call the vet and start checking out my female.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

BenderR said:


> Seems I came to the correct place for answers. The male will be neutered this next Thursday fully. We had hoped the testical would descend but unfortunately it did not. With the strangulation concerns and reading what I just read i feel its the best decision. I find it interesting the cryptorchid recessive trait become prepubescent in dogs that have it. I sincerly appreciate everyones input on that subject.
> 
> The falsification of AKC PAL/IP paperwork will be dealt with. I never even read over the paperwork it was given to be from the breeder. As my female just came outta heat (she wears diapers when outta kennel and crate and around male) I know for a fact she is not spayed. We do have the documented lineage on her - the breeder was getting out of the community and never registered a male he bred that he later used on another female that was AKC registered.
> 
> ...


This is so refreshing to read! I truly appreciate your question, all the intelligent, thoughtful repsonses, and your ultimate decision. Thank you!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sounds like you're going about it all the right way! Maybe the female is not ILP but limited registration? Limited registration means she can remain intact but the breeder would have to lift the limit before any puppies could be registered. Can you tell us her full name or number, or scan the paper?


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## BenderR (Mar 13, 2013)

After speaking with my vet, she has told me that due too my females allergies, she maybe undesirable as a dam as well. We are gonna proceed with blood testing to find out if its genetic or something in the house too determine if further testing is worth it. 

Kinda a bummer...would've been really special too breed puppies with our first two dogs together, or atleast one of them. But hey - we didn't embark on this journey to do it with one shoe on either. It's all about the love and just being around this magnificent beast we call the German Shepherd. 


My females mothers paperwork - Shauna vom Adelhaus Neuburg

as previously said the male wasn't registered and the gentlemen has since retired and moved so finding out any of that information is kind of null. He had the documentation of the dogs parents on his walls like a trophy collection, my eyes seen them but doesn't do much for proof in the eyes of breeding respectable puppies for ones self.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If the sire of your female was not registered, then the female is fraudulently registered and will never get regular papers. She should be spayed to comply with the ILP paperwork.

As far as excellent lineage, please start studying the pedigrees of breeders dogs you find on here....note the titles and accomplishments of the dogs in the pedigrees, and then the peripheral pedigrees....Unfortunately, the lineage of your female's dam is not consistent in either AKC show lines, or German lines and the only titles are in the third generation. A positive is that many dogs are cited to be OFA certified. But that in itself is not enough to base a breeding upon.

Look through the rescue section....right now there are two very nice tempered purebred GSDs in a high kill shelter that I, among others, are trying to get permanent homes for...a 4 year old male and a 2 year old female. There are many many nice dogs who could fill your lives up without breeding pups from your wonderful pets....

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

BenderR said:


> I have a 2 year old German Shepherd (black/tan). She is a long hair shepherd with above average traits (very much the pick of the liter), She is AKC PAL/IP registered. Very excellent temperment, above average work drive, very easily trained. (we taught her to crawl under fences and picnic tables in 45 seconds with a light push on her back off the down command and motioned her forward while saying "crawl" "good girl" "crawl" just to give an idea of this dogs intelligence levels.


Not to pick on you, but these are your first two German Shepherds. You don't compete with them, and I'm guessing you're not a part of a GSD club where you're around the breed a lot. BTW...I'm also not that far ahead of you to gauge these things either. My first dog, but I do compete and am part of a club. So I have a lot more to compare to.

You have absolutely no idea how to gauge her drives, temperament, intelligence, ect because you don't have anything to compare to. Just the fact that you say "above average work drive," what does that mean? What is "average work drive"? If you go to my GSD club you'll see a lot of dogs with very low work drive, compared to them my boy has extremely high drives...but that is not the average in the population as a whole.

Teaching a simple command doesn't prove intelligence, I'm not calling her dumb by any means, but many of us can train our dogs to do simple tasks quite quickly. The true test is being able to perform tasks on command, in a strange place, with tons of distractions, while being judged. The judging is key because it puts stress/pressure on the handler, and the dogs easily pick up on that stress.

I think your girl could've been a great candidate to breed if a lot of other things lined up. But there are just so many things stacked against her. I think you're making the right ethical decision to not breed, just enjoy your dog, and if you like her lines so much, the next time you want one, try to find those lines again.


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

wolfstraum said:


> Look through the rescue section....right now there are two very nice tempered purebred GSDs in a high kill shelter that I, among others, are trying to get permanent homes for...a 4 year old male and a 2 year old female. There are many many nice dogs who could fill your lives up without breeding pups from your wonderful pets....
> 
> Lee


That's a really good idea, Wolfstraum. Thank you for bringing it up. The OP did mention dogs for his family, etc., that were affordable. Rescues can fit that bill.

And, kind of like breeding your own, you get an idea of what you're getting from the start. Actually, maybe even more so, b/c when you start with an adult dog, you already Know what it's gonna look like, can judge a thing or two about it's temperament...

So, you're already starting out with what you have determined to be a good match. And on top of that, the dogs I have rescued have only gotten _better_ with time!


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## BenderR (Mar 13, 2013)

You're assuming a lot, and ranting about a reading comprehension issue on your own behalf. I said our first two shepherds together, inferring my wife and I's first dog together in our house, I've been raising shepherds for 20 years passionately, and my wife with several other breeds for 15 years. Don't mean to be rude, but that was one **** of a rant that came off rather insulting.



martemchik said:


> Not to pick on you, but these are your first two German Shepherds. You don't compete with them, and I'm guessing you're not a part of a GSD club where you're around the breed a lot. BTW...I'm also not that far ahead of you to gauge these things either. My first dog, but I do compete and am part of a club. So I have a lot more to compare to.
> 
> You have absolutely no idea how to gauge her drives, temperament, intelligence, ect because you don't have anything to compare to. Just the fact that you say "above average work drive," what does that mean? What is "average work drive"? If you go to my GSD club you'll see a lot of dogs with very low work drive, compared to them my boy has extremely high drives...but that is not the average in the population as a whole.
> 
> ...


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> The male will be neutered this next Thursday fully.


You’ve come to a wise & ethical decision, IMO. Kudos on acting in the best interests of your dog.

A bit of advice…Don’t give dogs/pups away. Sadly, all too often free or inexpensive dogs aren’t properly valued, & are quickly dumped when they become inconvenient. Far better to breed dogs people are willing, even eager to pay for, & to include a ‘right of 1st refusal’ in your contract with the buyers. It’s a major commitment to agree to take back any dog throughout its lifetime, but no less than the dogs deserve.




> There are plenty of awesome studs out there. It's very cheap, sometimes even free, to find a really nice stud that has show title, working title, all health certs, and *free from genetic problems*. Unless this male brings something absolutely phenomenal to the table I would not consider it.


Lies, I’m somewhat surprised you’re making this statement. Does this mean you’ve decided against breeding Nikon?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Lies, I’m somewhat surprised you’re making this statement. Does this mean you’ve decided against breeding Nikon?


Is this supposed to be some covert way of stating there's something "wrong" with Nikon?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought it sounded kind of snarky, but then I wasn't sure if it was just my warped anti-winter feelings leaking through.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think it makes sense here to stay to the original topic......the OPs question not other dogs.

BenderR, I am glad you are backing off both on the pedigree thing and the allergy thing. GSDs' issues with allergy problems are largely genetic. It is very good when dogs with allergies are not bred as it is a heartbreaking life! 

There are a number of breeders doing a good job and reading about some of the nightmare experiences of folks, I don't think it is something I would want to risk with one of my own dogs. Not for a replacement dog for myself.

So much can go wrong and I think dogs like people need to be bred young and with some frequency to maintain fertility so just doing it once every so often may not be a viable approach. I know one lady who spent thousands to get Artificial Insemination done with her accomplished female to have that special litter - only to have the dog get pyometra and have to be spayed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Not sure what it means, I don't think I know RubyTuesday and don't think she's ever met my dog (who passed every health and genetic test I've done and he's definitely got two balls....). And even if he hadn't, that is not my point. I've never advocated for only breeding *perfect* dogs. I am not a title or breeding police. Many people would frown on the next litter I'm getting a puppy from. My point was that studs are easy to find, even studs with breed surveys and additional titles and health certs that are not passing on missing testicles, and they are cheap to breed to (even the most expensive GSD studs have a fee less than what most people sell puppies for) so there's no real reason for someone to feel they have to keep their own in-house male intact in order to start breeding.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Using an outside stud makes sense most of the time as the chances of raising the right male for the female pup you raised are really slim to none. Oh, you can make pretty puppies with them, but your best bet is to pick a male who complements your bitch, meaning he is very correct where she is weak and vice versa. 

As for coloring outside of the lines, well great artists and kindergarteners get away with it, because great artists have excellent experience and know how, and kindergarten kids really don't have the ability. But for the rest of us, it makes sense to stay within the lines we know best as much as possible. I am not saying a German Showline or American Line bitch cannot be bred to a Czech dog, but _most_ of the working line enthusiasts would not take a chance on such a mix as they would not want the showline or American line in there; while the show people would definitely not want the Czech dog in there. And then there are the pet people, some of them might want a high energy pup with crazy ball drive, and some might want a laid back couch potato pet, some might be willing to work with a dog that had less the stellar nerves, but most would want them rock solid. The thing is, would you be able to figure out who's who in the litter so that Granny doesn't end up with the Energizer Bunny? 

Without SV or AKC full registration, the bitch just shouldn't be bred, and I think the OP has got that information. The dog too, if the testicles do not drop on their own, and at this point, I think your chances are getting slimmer, he simply should not be bred. But that doesn't mean that they are not awesome pets.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I don't think a dog that might pass on missing testicles s/b bred, but there are, at least IMO, worse things that can be passed on. 

My apologies if my comments came off as snarky. Members should first & foremost follow their own advice or they come off at best as inconsistent.

BenderR s/b commended for thoughtfully considering the advice he was given here & making a decision that is both humane & smart.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> BenderR s/b commended for thoughtfully considering the advice he was given here & making a decision that is both humane & smart.


Ramen! You don't see that often someone so willing to learn as the OP here.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## BenderR (Mar 13, 2013)

*Hello All*

Just an update - 

My male has been neutered - the testicle was very high up in the abdomen with zero chance of it ever dropping. We are still upset we can't have that very special liter, but we will go on and get more dogs down the road and see what happens from there - we are both in our mid 20's so there is plenty of time. 

His recovery has been a challenge - he doesn't need the cone of shame, but lordy has his energy levels gone up. 


- As far as giving away puppies for free; it was only too highly regarded friends and family, the type of people who i've already been in there homes and they already have well cared for shepherds. There is a lot of us out here, got a pretty big family and everyone has a few. So neglect, and taking the puppy back wouldn't ever be a concern as im never ever going public, and my families dogs are always at my house anyway so w/e lol


- well i'm very busy; i'll try to catch up more after easter with the results of the females allergies and OFA

Have a happy easter & passover


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Thanks for neutering your male. I had a great temperment guy who they didn't realize had a retained testical until he went in to be neutered. having it removed will make your dog much more comfortable.

One thing no one has commented on is having a female in heat with a diaper loose with an intact male. I don't think the diaper would work as a very good contraceptive! At least the ones I use for my youngster wouldn't. In case you go down this road in the future, I think the standard thinking is if that a bitch in heat is not turned loose with an intact male unless intend to have her bred.


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## BenderR (Mar 13, 2013)

We use custom made cloth diapers that are latched with a very small hole for her tale and it goes up past her belly, due to the nature of hip shapes of shepherds we found no store purchased diaper fit properly, so we took the petco cloth diapers, took the velcro off, went to lowes and got normal latches for backpacks and sewed them on, now she can't pull em off nor can the male, they fit nice and snug due to adjustment straps from the backpack style clamp. I wouldn't worry too much about it - consider it a doggy Chasity belt plus my dogs are supervised at all times or crated separately. 

I would highly recommend you guys adapt this home made take on the petco diaper it works and doesn't leave those nasty matts on the dogs fur because they can actually fit properly. 




middleofnowhere said:


> Thanks for neutering your male. I had a great temperment guy who they didn't realize had a retained testical until he went in to be neutered. having it removed will make your dog much more comfortable.
> 
> One thing no one has commented on is having a female in heat with a diaper loose with an intact male. I don't think the diaper would work as a very good contraceptive! At least the ones I use for my youngster wouldn't. In case you go down this road in the future, I think the standard thinking is if that a bitch in heat is not turned loose with an intact male unless intend to have her bred.


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