# Dog Show and German Shepherds from a GSD lover



## ddvv (Mar 7, 2011)

I went to a dog show this past weekend, took my dobe pup with me and she did great, the dobermans shown were very good looking and healthy, some of them less than others but overall they looked great. 

Then I went to look at the German Shepherds and although I was prepared for what I call the "american shepherds" it was still a shock to see what has been done to that wonderful breed here in the US. The dogs were literally crippled because of the sloping backs and most of them seemed to be walking on their pasterns (sp?) on their front legs. Worse of all is the fact that before the show started they were walking around with these dogs and they were so skittish and nervous that it just made me want to cry. One of them walked by my pup (Brie is a 6 months old dobe pup) and she was just relaxed and wanting to see the new dog walking by and moved maybe 1 inch toward him and he jumped back and ran behind the handler legs shaking, it was just heartbreaking.
I imported my GSD as a pup from Germany 11 years ago and although he is from show lines, not working lines, his looks and temperament have been more than I could ever ask from a GSD. 
What is worse I am taking my pup to obedience classes and few group classes were offered so I ended up going to the one offered by the local german shepherd club and Brie is the only "non gsd" in a class of 12 dogs.
It just amazes me that the AKC judges can stand there looking at these crippled shepherds being paraded in front of them, skittish and nervous, and declare any of them worthy of any title. 
Sorry for the rant.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Welcome to the board!

My introduction to dog training was at the local vet's office. They had a puppy package that included basic obedience. I trained my Aussie type mutt there, and had a great time. I mentioned in passing that I owned a German Shepherd, and one of the other people there showed me his GSD. The dog was walking almost on his hocks. I remember thinking, "What's wrong with that dog's back legs?"

Sometimes I wonder if the judges don't gather in the bar and complain amongst themselves about the quality of the dogs being presented. I don't think there's a "none of the above" category available to them; they must have to pick _something_ as the winner. Can you see a judge at the big Eukanuba sponsored show standing in front of the cameras and saying that none of the dogs present are correct? That'd be the last time that judge ever worked _that_ event, wouldn't it?

Which is the crux of the problem.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I agree about the choices the judges have in the conformation ring. They dont have to place a dog first if they dont feel they should be. They could just start out at second place. At least that is the way it used to be, that has probably changed. I think the working line owners should start entering their dogs in the conformation classes. Maybe I will start the trend. We can change the look of the dogs that are 'put up'. That would also let the viewing public know there are other options out there. So which show does everyone want to go to?


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

dawnandjr said:


> I agree about the choices the judges have in the conformation ring. They dont have to place a dog first if they dont feel they should be. They could just start out at second place. At least that is the way it used to be, that has probably changed. I think the working line owners should start entering their dogs in the conformation classes. Maybe I will start the trend. We can change the look of the dogs that are 'put up'. That would also let the viewing public know there are other options out there. So which show does everyone want to go to?


You have named the cure to the problem. Unfortunately, I just realized that I am guilty of not knowing my subject. I am a Schutzhund person; I know almost nothing about AKC style shows. I'll have to do some research.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

dawnandjr said:


> I agree about the choices the judges have in the conformation ring. They dont have to place a dog first if they dont feel they should be. They could just start out at second place. At least that is the way it used to be, that has probably changed. I think the working line owners should start entering their dogs in the conformation classes. Maybe I will start the trend. We can change the look of the dogs that are 'put up'. That would also let the viewing public know there are other options out there. So which show does everyone want to go to?


I am planning on showing Judge. Once he's AKC registered I WILL show him as much as possible just to show what a good, solid Shepherd should look like.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

What do you want to know? Maybe I can help!

I too am not happy with the nervous, extreme GSD at many dog shows. My dogs don't look or act like that. The all-breed ring used to be where you would find nice dogs with decent temeraments and moderate structure. But with the increased cost of showing, and the type of dogs being shown by top handlers, the "specialty dog" type has infiltrated our realm. And they are winning! Too bad.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

welcome to the forum and thank you for the rant.

So true . 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K , save your money. 
I know what you are trying to do , but that is not what the in crowd wants and you won't make a dint. All you would do is increase the "points" another dog defeated.

I know the AKC / CKC ring. I did a lot of handling -- include dogs that became selects . I produced many champions , ROM's, dogs still in the genetics of some select dogs. The gene pool came from the "Mike" lines , a counter point to the Lance . 
As time went on I would continue to appear at the shows . The dogs I had did not even look like the same breed -- VP 1 as puppy at a german style show - was not even looked at . I knew it . I didn't care . I was there to make the people in the audience think about things. Funny thing is that after the judging people would rush to see my dog , ribbons or no ribbons.

There are better ways to promote the wonderfulness of your dog than sticking out like a sore thumb in the AKC ring. There won't be any "oh now I have seen the light" moments.

so sorry it has come to this point 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Mrs K , save your money.
> I know what you are trying to do , but that is not what the in crowd wants and you won't make a dint. All you would do is increase the "points" another dog defeated.
> 
> I know the AKC / CKC ring. I did a lot of handling -- include dogs that became selects . I produced many champions , ROM's, dogs still in the genetics of some select dogs. The gene pool came from the "Mike" lines , a counter point to the Lance .
> ...


But how is ever anthing going to change if we won't show our dogs? They more working line dogs are showed, they more they have to recognize them, or not?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I am taking a show handling class and we are both really enjoying it-if we show I don't really feel that I need to show people what a GSD looks like-think its ok if they look differently-and hope we could just enjoy doing it even if we didn't win


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

MrsK.....we have shown our WL young dogs...and to our surprise....the male (who is amazing) did well. *Not my pup...a very good friend's pup*.
But...we did show them to a German SV judge....not AKC.
A female that we co-own (WGSL) was just shown this past weekend in Milwaukee, WI...and she was #3 out of 3.
She looked completely different than the 2 other females in the class.
Our friends wanted to show her (even though we said that she is not the type) in the AKC show...
They had a *fun* experience, and were not depressed.
They did have people come up to them, and ask about their dog.....it seemed more people "outside" the ring were impressed by her...than the judge inside the ring.LOL!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am with Carmen on this. I would save the money. It is certainly not that the show people do not know what your dog looks like! I was talking to two specialty handlers that do schutzhund just the other day. Showing the other types of dogs does not necessarily make the show people want to jump up and get a dog like yours either. They know what they have as opposed to other lines and types.

If you have a nicely conformed working line dog, I think the all-breed ring might be a place where the dog could get a look. If you personally have a big desire to show your dog, this might be the place to go. 

The extreme dogs and breeders are their own worst enemy. I have always told people not to worry, they will come to a logical end. It seems it might even be happening. I show at these shows some. The numbers are way down. Big majors almost impossible to find. A specialty cancelled the other day due to lack of entries and then the numbers of specialties are down themselves. For this reason, perhaps the specialty type dogs are arriving on the scene at the all-breed shows. 

There is a good deal of inbreeding in these lines also. This too has a logical conclusion. I don't see any need to try and show someone the error of their ways in this. Mother Nature has a way of communicating it anyway. 

I don't know why showing a dog "makes" someone have to recognize them. They know the type anyway. Point fodder for a different type of dog never appealed to me as a way to spend money. I am not interested in putting Hogan in the ring to help another type of dog to its championship. 

Just his last weekend, I heard a lady of some 30 years experience with the GSD ring talking about why she had abandoned for another breed. People who really know what a GSD is supposed to be about know what is what in the animal in front of them. The rest are not so interested in enlightenment, IME.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Where in milwaukee was a showing?!?!?! Or a dog show for that matter? Too bad I missed it...

Anyways, I go to the local GSD club and they specialize in American show line. I can't say that their dogs are even close to the extreme so they do a pretty good job of making them a little more straight backed. But I definately notice a difference in nerve and temperment. I tried to introduce my 7 month old to a 7 month old female "in training" to be a show dog and as soon as the sniffing stopped and my pup wanted to play, she jumped back like he was about to maul her. He's the sweetest little pup ever and would never do anything like that (especially to a pretty female). The owner bent down and coddled her dog like she was about to have a nervous breakdown. All I could think of was, "Is this why you got a German Shepherd?"


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in reality you can not take a nicely conformed working line dog and compete in the german show line ring either -- so no purpose in frustrating and martyring yourself in making a point with the american show line ring.

there used to be some really decent dogs in the american all breed ring -- back in the days of Paladen and Reno , Yoncalla's Mike, Hollamar Judd , Hessians Vogue , Hessians Baldur , early days of Covy Tucker Hills. 

Here is a book that should be on every GSD lovers shelf The German Shepherd Dog 
by Susan Barwig - Hoflin publishers .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GROVEBEAUTY (Oct 23, 2008)

I actually have been at a show recently where the judge did not award the first place to any dogs in the class. I also, at that same show said after the Best of Breed class was finished being judged thatshe was very disappointed in the quality of the dogs shown. i wish more judges had the guts to do what these two judges did that day! I agree, the dogs in the show ring are not what I want to raise.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have seen ribbons withheld also. Most recently for temperament. '
Now as far as withholding for "quality" it woud depend on whose judgement of quality. That can go any which way!

As far as the shows needing to know about other types. I find they often know. Not long ago I was a show with one of the top specialty handlers. After the show was over, they got their personal dog out..... a large, dark WGWL schutzhund titled male and was doing some obedience with him. Obviously, this handler loves and admires that working line boy! 

The worlds and the world views that the GSD finds itself in are varied and disparate. Its that split. Some people feel the gap should be closed, others involved had little interest in changing their "type". 

I don't mind so much the breeding for a more open gait. If someone is into that, its okay to me to a degree. But, when nerve, temperament and inherent drives are sacrificed to it... balance is lost and so is the dog. Many people exclaim about the physical extremity of some of the dogs. To me that is the least of it. 

Courage, hardness and fighting drive pronounced... the hallmarks of the breed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It is refreshing that people are at least acknowledging this occurrence....I have been on this topic for many many years, and supporters would always come on here and accuse me of bashing. I was just telling the truth, and people should be PROUD of the truth instead of making excuses, or some diverting comment to escape acknowledgement of the condition of the breed in the show ring. But as time goes on the American SL dog and the Alsation in the UK will be so isolated that people will almost completely stop seeking them.


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## ddvv (Mar 7, 2011)

There is a 14 weeks old male pup in my obedience class that the person purchased from a well known local GSD breeder and it is a huge male pup with such a sloped back that you can hardly see his back legs under it and what is worse he walks on his pasterns and she was telling everyone what a champ she had and how much she spent for him......the pup was terrified of everything going on in the class and she had to pull him from under the chair to perform the exercises........
I have had GSDs all my life, I'm originally from Italy, and have been appalled by what the breed looks like here. That is why I imported a pup from Germany and when he was a pup the most common question we got was "is he mixed with a malamute?" or "is he part chow?" because he was black and red and plush coated. Some even commented on the fact that maybe we got "duped" and he was not a REAL GSD....we laughed it off of course. 
Some of your comments give me hope that maybe there is a move toward a healthier GSD in the american lines but it did not look that way at the show I went to.
By the way the show was in St. Louis, MO.


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

I think it's wrong to say that it won't make a difference, and I fully support an influx of WL dogs into the show ring. A few years ago when dh told me he wanted to get a GSD I told him that I didn't want a dog with its back end all messed up, a frog-dog. I had no idea at the time that there were different lines of GSDs and that there were other options out there besides the unattractive, butt-on-the-ground dogs or insanely driven, too-hyper for the average family, police dogs. After some research I found out differently. Just getting a good solid dog out there will bring light to the situation for the average person.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

The show in Wisconsin was held at the Wisconsin State Fair Park Exposition Center.
West Allis, WI...to be exact. *I said Milwaukee, because it't the closest large city.*
Saturday March 5th, Sunday March 6th.

*I will continue to bring WL & SL both to the German style Conformation Shows.....win or lose.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I show WGSL and WL dogs in the UKC breed ring. To be honest, our shortcomings are mainly my fault. I do not spend a lot of time (if any) ring training my dogs, and while they are very nice specimens and look very well stacked, they do not move the same way as the other dogs which are showing every other weekend. I like to at the very least show my dogs to champion which requires 100 points and a certain number of wins over competition, but I don't show UKC more than 3-4 shows a year. It's not that my dogs *can't* win (because I have seen a very moderate young male WL class dog win breed over some American line Grand Champions), but my dogs can be a bit goofy in the ring and admittedly I do not really show them to their potential. I really like my WL puppy Pan and once he matures a bit more I plan to ring train him much more than previous dogs and hopefully be more competitive and get Grand Champion with him. Yes, every once in a while we do get a judge that won't give dogs other than American lines a look (I had one judge who never even touched my dog), but for the most part the UKC breed ring has a smattering of all lines/types. Neither of my two Champions are American line dogs. Kenya actually showed the best in the UKC ring and she is probably the farthest from an American line type dog. She is very balanced and moves effortlessly without a lot of ring training.

I also show in the SV type ring and it's basically the same story, just a different type of dog. One type is clearly favored and there are some rather undesirable (IMO) extremes.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Very interesting opinions and I appreciate the honesty. 

One thing I am not, I am not very competitive. Never was, so I don't really care if I win or lose. Of course everybody enjoys winning but I wouldn't be as hardbroken if we'd lose because I could care less. I know what I have in my hands and even if the Judges disagree, I know they are wrong. Because at the end of the day, my dog is healthy and can run without wobbling or running on his hocks. 

I actually agree with Minniskie. If there is just one person that gets interested into WL just because he sees one on the show and learns that there is more than SL... than even losing is totally worth it. 

As for saving money. Who knows... maybe we even make it to the Westminster show and he becomes a Champion. You never know (I know... I have to stop daydreaming LOL )


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

MrsK showing is not cheap. 
If you want to make a statement get a really good evaluation of your dog's conformation . Get a good handler. If the dog, who may be your sweetest pet, has any faults or shortcomings or is handled poorly , bridging on set up, pacing , not knowing what the judges special areas of interest are , the dog will not be show cased . The difference will be magnified and exaggerated by the fact that he is "different" but it will be in a negative light. And then the people will say -- see look at that .
Any time you go into competition you have to be competitive, otherwise you look beaten from the outset and this will be glaring.

By judges area of interest I will give this example - if I were judging I would pay attention to good fronts. I mean real good fronts. I want to see a shoulder that can open up . I don't want to see hackney, pounding , I don't want to see false extension that comes from having over long pasterns or short upper arm , long from elbow to pastern to give a clown shoe effect.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> MrsK showing is not cheap.
> If you want to make a statement get a really good evaluation of your dog's conformation . Get a good handler. If the dog, who may be your sweetest pet, has any faults or shortcomings or is handled poorly , bridging on set up, pacing , not knowing what the judges special areas of interest are , the dog will not be show cased . The difference will be magnified and exaggerated by the fact that he is "different" but it will be in a negative light. And then the people will say -- see look at that .
> Any time you go into competition you have to be competitive, otherwise you look beaten from the outset and this will be glaring.
> 
> ...


Maybe I should clarify. Judge is the only one that is actually without fault. Yukon ripped his ear off as a young dog and I have no idea what is going on with Indras ear, I have to have it checked by a vet. 

However what I mean about "I am not competitive" is that I don't care about winning or losing. I am doing something because I have fun doing it or because there is something bigger than winning. If I do something I put my heart to it and I don't care how much it costs. SAR is very expensive as well. Driving, Gear, Training, Gas, Food, Time... so is Schutzhund, so is any sport or hobby you do. 

I don't need to join the big rings or shows, however I can go to local, smaller shows where the general public goes to, maybe even set up a booth and promote responsible breeding and ownership and show what is available out there and how you find a responsible breeder and what you have to look for in responsible breeders and that ownership is more than just paying money for a pup. 

Sounds ridiculous... I know...


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A ripped ear is not a fault. Grand Victor Canada/US GCh. Tazzman's Aregon is missing a fair piece of one of his.


RWB at that St Louis show this weekend says it wasn't her running on her front pasterns!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have been out of the gsd ring for many years, went to an expo a couple months back where all the breeds were being show cased to the general public. Unfortunately the german shepherds show cased, were the worst I've seen. Young dogs walking on their hocks, down on their pasterns. I know the breeder she shows both specialty & all breed. People were not impressed. So where did they go?? 
Over to the Rare breed ring, and just LOVED the shilohs 

I so wish I had taken Masi with me, and would have offered to compare the differences.

Mrs K, I think you SHOULD show that boy, if you can afford it of course I think anytime you can get a GOOD dog out there, whether you win or not, just the exposure and the experience is a good thing 

I started taking handling classes with my male back in 96, he was 1/2 ddr and 1/2 am show lines. Not extreme, a very sound, easy to show male. Great learning experience. I had no high expectations, I wanted to try something different and learn..I started in matches, where he always took a group placement. I entered him in his first all breed show when he was 9 months old, a friend handled him for me, I can still remember the 'rumblings' around the ring from some of the very well known handlers at the time "who was this BLACK DOG?? and where'd he come from?" (black gsd's weren't shown much at the time) 

I will also never forget a well known handlers wife, come charging over saying 'WHO"S DOG IS THAT?" not that they knew who I was, but I knew who they were

Anyhow long story short, he took a RWD over some top named dogs at the time. Which didn't make him or me to popular but I was thrilled 

I showed him probably around 15 times, and he never came out of the ring with less than an RWD. No Champion, but it was fun to shake up the ring, and a wonderful learning experience..so I say go for it


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I love going to dog shows, and we go to conformation class every week. We have a show coming up in 3 weeks, so we are working, working, working!

I am always impressed by the way my girls behave in the ring and outside the ring when we are training. They are very approachable - you can come up and say hi to them, and they'll take the attention for a minute and then ignore you. 

They are NEVER skittery or nervous or weird acting. In fact, we have a very well known breeder and judge of a different breed that comes train with us every week, and he jokes that we need to pep those girls up (yea, right, LOL, nothing that a few benadryl wouldn't fix  ). 

If we win, that's great. If we don't, my dogs and I have fun anyway. I say if you want to show, go for it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In all the shows I have been in -- mostly in Ohio, I have only seen one pup that truly looked deformed and so weak on the hind end that it made me cringe. 

The idea that working line dogs should not be show in German rings is incredible in my opinion. Often these dogs rate V. V is Excellent. Would you not rather have a dog out of the lines you want that has been judged against other dogs and has an excellent rating as well as the titles and other tests and health screenings dogs go through. Yes, there are only so many dogs that come in VA -- maybe 8 maybe 14, it depends, and they are not working line dogs.

But why not keep working line dogs in the shows. Dogs should be bred for their working ability and their conformation, otherwise, your working line dogs will follow whatever is popular, you will have over sized and undersized dogs, dogs with a variety of faults, dogs with whatever angulation. I think that working line people should show, and get the excellent ratings on their dogs. 

Breeders who poo poo all conformation are certainly doing the breed no favors.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

I took a try in the AKC ring last year with Elsa. She's done well in the smaller club level SV style shows. First day, the judge was very nice to me, being my first time in the AKC ring. Only dog in our class, so got to go back in for Winners Bitch. We were last, but at least the judge seemed to give my dog consideration just like he did the others. The second day, I was appalled by the judge. She gave me a sour look, never smiled. Hardly looked at my dog. Again, only one in our class, so back in again. Hadn't even made it around the ring the first time, and the judge was already handing out the ribbons. Needless to say, I wasn't impressed with her. 
Then I had to go over to the obedience ring. I'm waiting there with my friend, and she says, your not going to like this guy. I haven't seen him smile yet today. I get to checking, and it's the husband of the lady judge I just had in the breed ring. I'm thinking...oh great!!! 

Well, anyway, I take Elsa in. We start through the pattern. Everything is going good. We do the figure 8. Good. We do the stand for exam. Good. Go to off leash heeling. It's all pretty good. Then I set up for the recall. Leave her, walk out, turn around and give the heir command at his signal , boom, she's in front sitting. I call her to fuss. We are finished. The judge is smiling. OK, this is good. I take my next dog in, pretty much the same thing, although he's not as flashy in heeling, just along for the walk, but obedient. Judge is still smiling. We do the sit/stay and down/stay. I have to have my son do my other dog. It goes well and we got the highest scores. I'm happy, and I know that many people saw a really nice flashy obedience routine, with a good GSD, and a good routine with my boy. We ended up with two legs on Elsa that weekend, both with 1st place finishes. I am going back there this year, at the end of this month to get that last leg of her CD. Hope it goes well, as we've not been training because she currently has a one pup litter, but in a couple of more weeks, he'll be completely weaned and already momma is itching to go do some work.

Not sure I want to go back into the breed ring, but who knows. I enjoyed listening to the comments of spectators and other owners. At least I knew that my dog didn't have temperment issues, is solid in her conformation except for the typical a little too straight in the shoulder, and she's HOT (Handler Owner Trained) titled in SchH, so I also know that she can work.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I didn't know a lot of working line dogs V rate? Is that more common now? 

I just remembered who was WD in St. Louis the past weekend. He has angulation, but he is not crippled. He can run and jump and even jumps straight up in the air pretty darn well... be ready. I would want more hardness in a dog though. Temperament is good for an ASL. Not weak or nervous and I have travelled a few states with him now. 

Temperament to me is the main issue. If people want a gaiting animal that can gait to the moon in a sweeping sidegait... okay. But, let it have a sound mind. 

_The number one thing with this breed is a good temperament and it’s still a problem in the breed today. Just because the dog is a champion, doesn’t mean it has good temperament. It just means someone trained it to stand or that they showed it a lot of times and it stood half the time they showed it.

I’m always amazed that people know the spook champions in the breed and breed to them anyway. I can’t believe that anyone would purposely do that. There is still great need for improvement. We need to seriously select the males and bitches we use for breeding and seriously select what we keep. It's still about the standard.

_

from recent interview with judge Dave Rinke


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

samba, I don't know anything about v ratings, but you are so right with the temperament issue as dave rinke stated.

When I was showing and a spectator, the saddest thing to me was seeing a dog(s) bug eyed, hectic, shy, and just wanting to be anywhere but there


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

In the same general area as Selzer but have seen plenty of GSD puppies and adults at shows here, dogs which have caused my non-GSD friends to whisper "why do GSD people _like _that?" (usually due to the dog being down in the pasterns/hocks). I was at the Detroit show this past weekend and was quite surprised to see that someone had a couple German dogs entered, at least one was SchH titled. I think this was likely due to it being a benched show - a great place to make a statement because the dogs are there all day and the it draws a lot of spectators. Also saw several Rotties with tails being shown.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I have wandered over to the breed ring while at Rally competitions. The GSD's shown there made my heart sad. Also, to know that my perfectly good working lines girl who's back is straight and hocks are straight would probably not do well because her structure is too healthy is sad. The last Rally trial we went to we ran into a judge that had bred GSD's before. When we walked up to the start gate she said "Oh you have my heart!" When we were done with our run before we left the ring she told me that Raina was a "lot of dog" and that she didn't usually see "that much dog" in a Rally ring. She recognized the working lines. When we went back into the ring for ribbons she talked to me again and said that she hopes to see us in the ring again and that she loved Raina. Raina got her Rally Novice title that day. Of course she wasn't a conformation judge, but a performance judge but it made me feel good to know that someone in the AKC world recognizes a good shepherd when they see one.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

pyratemom said:


> Of course she wasn't a conformation judge, but a performance judge but it made me feel good to know that someone in the AKC world recognizes a good shepherd when they see one.


 I'd say most performance/obedience people who have GSDs tend to prefer German lines. There is an Amline girl who comes out the the club for run thrus who is a very nice obedience dog and is a bit more moderate in structure.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I have seen a number of workingline dogs go V. Some deserved it, others were "gifts." Other judges will not even look at a workingline dog. 
I don't think I'd ever show at an AKC conformation show...for me it'd be a waste of time and money...but doing SV-style shows is fine. I don't expect to beat the showline dogs, but it is nice when you have a fair judge to get an honest evaluation of your dog's structure. I've shown Kessy a handful of times; most judges liked Kessy and had good things to say; one hated her and was very rude. But oh well, it's not all going to be positive when showing a WL dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> in reality you can not take a nicely conformed working line dog and compete in the german show line ring either -- so no purpose in frustrating and martyring yourself in making a point with the american show line ring.
> 
> there used to be some really decent dogs in the american all breed ring -- back in the days of Paladen and Reno , Yoncalla's Mike, Hollamar Judd , Hessians Vogue , Hessians Baldur , early days of Covy Tucker Hills.
> 
> ...


Wow! Those names bring back a flood of memories of my earlier days in GSD's. 

However, you realize, I am sure, that all of those dogs that you mentioned and a lot of others also had some problems. Temperament was a problem back in those days also. At one National, Julius Due actually excused a number of specials because of temperament (= BIG Uproar!)

I had a Reno doughter then. Great show dog as a puppy, but VERY soft temperament and had terrible health problems.

I can remember that Mike also had many rumors of throwing bad dogs as of course did Lance (we lived in Ohio at the time not far from Fran-Jo). 

I went to buy a pup from one of the other very famous breeders (and GSD judge) at the time and her great and famous stud would not come closer to us than half way down his kennel run to greet us; and the mother of the pups slunk away from us when we went into the kennel building to see the 6 week old pups!

Problems in the breed have been around for a very long time as has in particular the over angulation of some dogs.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

AgileGSD said:


> I'd say most performance/obedience people who have GSDs tend to prefer German lines. There is an Amline girl who comes out the the club for run thrus who is a very nice obedience dog and is a bit more moderate in structure.


I agree that the performance/obedience people recognize the value of a working line German dog. These dogs have such great attitudes towards work and they enjoy working.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

ddvv said:


> I went to a dog show this past weekend...Then I went to look at the German Shepherds and although I was prepared for what I call the "american shepherds" it was still a shock to see what has been done to that wonderful breed here in the US. The dogs were literally crippled because of the sloping backs and most of them seemed to be walking on their pasterns (sp?) on their front legs. Worse of all is the fact that before the show started they were walking around with these dogs and they were so skittish and nervous that it just made me want to cry. One of them walked by my pup (Brie is a 6 months old dobe pup) and she was just relaxed and wanting to see the new dog walking by and moved maybe 1 inch toward him and he jumped back and ran behind the handler legs shaking, it was just heartbreaking.
> I imported my GSD as a pup from Germany 11 years ago and although he is from show lines, not working lines, his looks and temperament have been more than I could ever ask from a GSD.
> What is worse I am taking my pup to obedience classes and few group classes were offered so I ended up going to the one offered by the local german shepherd club and Brie is the only "non gsd" in a class of 12 dogs.
> It just amazes me that the AKC judges can stand there looking at these crippled shepherds being paraded in front of them, skittish and nervous, and declare any of them worthy of any title.
> Sorry for the rant.


ddvv, you have witnessed first hand what has happened to the GSD in the US - it's sad but true.



Mrs.K said:


> I am planning on showing Judge. Once he's AKC registered I WILL show him as much as possible just to show what a good, solid Shepherd should look like.


Mrs. K - don't do it!! You will be beaten up! Our dogs are all German bred. Since German Sieger Shows, in our area, are few and far between, I thought showing in an AKC show would be a good experience and would offer a great opportunity for socialization etc. ARA stood out like sore thumb in the midst of all of the American breds. We showed three times and got killed every time - one judge told me that there was NOTHING that he liked about her and I should be BANNED from breeding!!!! Save yourself from the abuse.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Mrs. K - don't do it!! You will be beaten up! Our dogs are all German bred. Since German Sieger Shows, in our area, are few and far between, I thought showing in an AKC show would be a good experience and would offer a great opportunity for socialization etc. ARA stood out like sore thumb in the midst of all of the American breds. We showed three times and got killed every time - one judge told me that there was NOTHING that he liked about her and I should be BANNED from breeding!!!! Save yourself from the abuse.


Than I can always kindly disagree and tell him that only a German Shepherd from Germany is a REAL German Shepherd and add in German to stick it up his "  " and leave.  (joking)


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, it would almost be like showing two different breeds in the same ring sometimes. Generally the Americans are not breeding for a European type. They long ago took the breed and did what they wanted with it. Will the pendulum go back or the lines become comparable? I don't see it soon!

I have or have had several different lines. When people ask my son if we have all German Shepherd Dogs, his answer is "ish". They do not all resemble closely in type or characteristics here.

This is true of many working breeds. A local kennel club member saw a working line Mal go BOB the other day and told me it doesn't at all look like what the breed is supposed to! The world of dogs!!

I don't know that ASL folks are concerned with the Germanness of it all either! Their dogs are now their lines and dogs. I also think many in the homeland have not done terribly well by the breed that is their legacy and birthright though.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

This is the dog I was showing at the St. Louis show. He is 3/4 ASL and 1/4 DDR. He has 2 points toward his championship.



















He is not 100% in either camp, but he is a nice, solid dog with a sound temperament.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> I don't know that ASL folks are concerned with the Germanness of it all either! Their dogs are now their lines and dogs. I also think many in the homeland have not done terribly well by the breed that is their legacy and birthright though.


That I absolutely agree with. Especially the Show-line people have done the breed no good. 

By the way... I should add that Indra and Judge are both from Austria. 
Just saying because of the comment I made earlier. So technically, I don't have real ones either. haha


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It will be like the collie, herding dog that became popular in America and look how it has ended up here in States. Barely can find one with good temperament or health. The breed in some qtrs will end up the same way, trajic but inevitable.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> It will be like the collie, herding dog that became popular in America and look how it has ended up here in States. Barely can find one with good temperament or health. The breed in some qtrs will end up the same way, trajic but inevitable.


not as long breeders like Wildhaus, Blackthorn or other working line breeders are out there


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

But, they are not breeders in the quarters Cliff speaks of. Lines in certain quarters are in deep trouble. I don't think any showing of any different types of dogs or shouting from the rooftops is likely to stop the pellmell jump over the cliff. We will see. More and more German dogs making their way into ASL pedigrees.... 

Demise or some rectification.... we will see.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I am planning on showing Judge. Once he's AKC registered I WILL show him as much as possible just to show what a good, solid Shepherd should look like.


We are not that far from each other. We should enter the same shows. I will have to get some conformation classes in, but that wont be a problem. Her puppies are almost done with her and we can start training again. (Have to be careful not to go anywhere she could bring a disease home to them).


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> It will be like the collie, herding dog that became popular in America and look how it has ended up here in States. Barely can find one with good temperament or health.


Yeah and I know someone that switched out of Collies because of their health, and got a GSD! That says a lot about the state of their breed...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

dawnandjr said:


> We are not that far from each other. We should enter the same shows. I will have to get some conformation classes in, but that wont be a problem. Her puppies are almost done with her and we can start training again. (Have to be careful not to go anywhere she could bring a disease home to them).


We should start training together than because I sure will need a showing class as well


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Yeah and I know someone that switched out of Collies because of their health, and got a GSD! That says a lot about the state of their breed...



I can't really speak for health of the breed but they don't seem to be an extremely unhealthy dog. It's very hard to find one with any sort of working temperament. I had a pet bred one who was awesome but gave up trying to find another with the drive he had. Most have nice pet temperaments though, and I suggest them often for families looking for a bigger dog.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Some breeders of WGSL still believe in the "religion" of maintaining working abilities and sound temperament......although it has become more difficult, it is still being done. *I just wish the statistics of breeders doing so, were higher*


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

robinhuerta said:


> Some breeders of WGSL still believe in the "religion" of maintaining working abilities and sound temperament......although it has become more difficult, it is still being done. *I just wish the statistics of breeders doing so, were higher*


I know of breeders who say this - and BELIEVE it!!!! But when you sit back and watch their dogs in training, at a trial, etc....it is just not there...but they really and truly THINK it is...! One SL breeder that I know is very very honest - wants that 70 70 80 to koer and advance - and states openly that the drive for OBEDIENCE is not there....(and all work is obedience based) which is why correct position and niceties of routine are usually lacking when you see a SL trial...no sit, pause, before a down command in the long down or escape for example....get some drive built adn rush trough the test hoping for enough points to get through....(based on observations) - and why some people get such a rude awakening at a trial when they are told not to worry about these "little things" - have seen WGSL in AKC obedience - one I personally know took 3 years to get a CD!!!! sloppy sloppy work when they did pass....could not keep the stays in a trial (fine at home club) - imported in utero from Germany - nice pet, pretty enough dog - but no enthusiasm in training...sad to see this over and over....

Had a conversation with a person puppy hunting recently - a SL breeder told him "you can do schutzhund with WGSL - if you get a WL, you are buying a loaded gun and it will attack someone and you will get sued"....Really caused alot of concern for the puppy hunter....this went WAY beyond trying to sell puppies!!!!

Lee


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Lee....I'm not preaching religion to anyone....I believe in good dogs period.
I know our dogs can & do work...because it's a must for us.
BSP dogs....no...never tried.
ScH Nationals....never tried.
Herding.....never tried.
ScH titled & trialed.....absolutely.
Working Service Dogs.....absolutely.
Working Street Police K9s.....absolutely.
I favor neither WL nor SL......I favor good dogs. It is very hard to maintain SLs that have the *ability* to actually work....._this is for sure.....perhaps someday we will no longer enjoy the Show venues, and will venture to other spectrum's._
I will still want a sound, solid, stable dog...capable of doing what I expect from it....SL or WL.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Had a conversation with a person puppy hunting recently - a SL breeder told him "you can do schutzhund with WGSL - if you get a WL, you are buying a loaded gun and it will attack someone and you will get sued"....Really caused alot of concern for the puppy hunter....this went WAY beyond trying to sell puppies!!!!


so much about educating people...ugh... really? 

Can't we just take the dogs from people like that and make them quit breeding and spreading rumors?


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