# WGSL Breeders?



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Hello everyone, im a soon to be GSD owner. However, i have come across the problem of finding a reputable WGSL dealer. I need a breeder who has puppies availabe that are not specifically bred to be for show. So im not interested in the overly angled backs and hind legs. I realise that the WGSLs are roached, but some are more than others..not interested in that. I wont be taking the dog to any shows. By saying i dont want to take him to shows im in no way implying that i dont want good blood lines. I just want a companion and i may do some basic PP training. The dog is going to be a male and what i like about the WGSL is the rich color, the stocky build, and the broad muzzle. So those characteristics are important to me. A good temperment and a healthy intelligent dog is of upmost importance. But so are looks. Im going to be pretty active with my GSD since im an athletic guy.

Any recommendations? Thanks in advance!


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

WGSL breeder** not dealer, lol.

Also id like to add that i have a 2 year old boy. Are there any precautions i need to take? My wife is concerned that maybe the excessive shedding might not be so healthy for a baby/toddler?


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Where are you located? That would help us recommend breeders in your area.

What you probably want is a non-show puppy from a show breeder. Many show breeders also title their dogs in Schutzhund which helps to prove their good temperament and trainability. They will also have had their dog's hips xrayed and certified as normal.

Also you should think about how to protect your puppy from your 2 year old. Toddlers can be hard on a puppy -- pulling ears and tails, etc.


----------



## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

If you want to do PP why would you look to a show line?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I do some protection work with my show line dog. He is medium sized and very athletic (also trained and titled in agility as well as tested in lure coursing and herding multiple times). Pretty moderate as far as conformation (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/4750747552_30738a1acf.jpg). He has a higher threshold and works more in defense which is what I like to handle in protection. He is biddable and obedience so in protection because he has a higher threshold he is not out of control or losing his mind anytime a helper or sleeve appears but when the threat comes at him he is real. Protection work is not a game to him, it needs to be "real" but he's a great PP dog for me even though we mostly do Schutzhund and dabble in PP. I don't consider him a "personal protection dog" because that is not my main area of training or my purpose for owning the dog. He is titled in Protection Alert and will do P1, P2...etc as soon as there are trials in my area. We don't have issues working the dog on a suit or without equipment and putting on a lot more pressure than the SchH routines. The main issue I see with show line dogs is that they work in high prey from the beginning and then as they mature and need to show more real defense and fight, the nerve comes to the surface and the dog just can't carry through. I don't know if I got lucky with my dog or what but he's exactly the type of dog I like to own and train, working or show line (I also have two working line dogs that I train in Schutzhund and a variety of other things). You can find some show line dogs that will be just fine for "dabbling" in PP (assuming you are not looking to be competitive) but it's not as easy as working lines because the vast majority of show line people do not do this type of training so wouldn't really know what lines carry it. Not saying every working line dog is automatically better, but more working line people do real protection work so there's more knowledge available as to which lines and dogs will produce the traits you are looking for.


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I do some protection work with my show line dog. He is medium sized and very athletic (also trained and titled in agility as well as tested in lure coursing and herding multiple times). Pretty moderate as far as conformation (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/4750747552_30738a1acf.jpg). He has a higher threshold and works more in defense which is what I like to handle in protection. He is biddable and obedience so in protection because he has a higher threshold he is not out of control or losing his mind anytime a helper or sleeve appears but when the threat comes at him he is real. Protection work is not a game to him, it needs to be "real" but he's a great PP dog for me even though we mostly do Schutzhund and dabble in PP. I don't consider him a "personal protection dog" because that is not my main area of training or my purpose for owning the dog. He is titled in Protection Alert and will do P1, P2...etc as soon as there are trials in my area. We don't have issues working the dog on a suit or without equipment and putting on a lot more pressure than the SchH routines. The main issue I see with show line dogs is that they work in high prey from the beginning and then as they mature and need to show more real defense and fight, the nerve comes to the surface and the dog just can't carry through. I don't know if I got lucky with my dog or what but he's exactly the type of dog I like to own and train, working or show line (I also have two working line dogs that I train in Schutzhund and a variety of other things). You can find some show line dogs that will be just fine for "dabbling" in PP (assuming you are not looking to be competitive) but it's not as easy as working lines because the vast majority of show line people do not do this type of training so wouldn't really know what lines carry it. Not saying every working line dog is automatically better, but more working line people do real protection work so there's more knowledge available as to which lines and dogs will produce the traits you are looking for.



Thank you, very informative. Yeah, i was just considering doing the basic level of PP. I don't really know much about it but i would like him to know whats a threat and what isn't. And hopefully to even get aggressive on command. 

I live in LA, CA.

Ive been wondering...what lines are the ones that are black/tan saddle back instead of the WGSL which are black/red? I know American showlines are but are there any others? Im not a fan of American Show.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

All lines have some dogs that are black/tan saddle. In WGSL, that makes up for about 99.5% (the other .5% being patterned red sables). In working lines there are less dogs with a saddle, more likely the black and tan colored dogs are bi-color, or a black/tan that's predominantly black like a "blanket" black. In American show lines the black/tan saddle is also very popular, but they have more variety than the WGSL (more sables, solid blacks, bi-colors, but still mostly black/tan).

The "threat" thing is mostly genetic, so you need to decide for yourself what balance of drive you are looking for as far as prey vs. defense (ideally a dog is balanced and possessed both, but realistically dogs will often have one more than the other). You also need to decide what level of threshold you want to deal with. A dog with a lower threshold might seem "easier" because it activates quickly but maybe that is not really what you want. I like a medium to high threshold. I need my dog to be calm when people like my dad (a big guy) or my husband's friends come over when I'm not home or walk in unannounced. Some people want a dog that would react to these types of people but I don't. Yes a lot of it is training but IMO with training you are expressing or suppressing genetics. The best thing for yourself is to stack the deck in your favor genetically and then get good training for you and your dog so you aren't fighting genetics. My dog can be extremely defensive of me and of himself but is very "safe" unless there is a threat in close proximity. I can have a cable guy come in my house and do work without my dog eating him up but if he were to verbally or physically harass me the dog will react accordingly.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

You can find blk/tan(red) in the working lines. It is just a little more difficult.
Christine from Blackthorn has some black/tan(red) working line dogs. I do not know her at all, but she is a member here.


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

gagsd said:


> You can find blk/tan(red) in the working lines. It is just a little more difficult.
> Christine from Blackthorn has some black/tan(red) working line dogs. I do not know her at all, but she is a member here.


Thank you for the mention.

All of my dogs who are black/tan-red have the bicolor or black recessive so they tend to be fairly dark. But they are definitely not just sable. 

Christine


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Im stuck because neither is exactly what i want. I want something in between German Show and Working. I like some charactisitics in the Working such as the straight back and temperament/threshold. And i like the big bulk and color of the German Show but i dislike the roached back. Also, i don't want too much red pigment. A black saddle back with tan and a touch of red pigmintation is perfect. Some WGSLs have too much red.


----------



## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

So you like the temperament of WL and the looks of SL. 

Trust me when I say having a dog that has a temperament you enjoy is much better than having a pretty dog that doesn't match your goals and life as well.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Temperament/threshold is all over the place in both. You need to be more specific. Most of my training friends have working line dogs and there's a good many of them I can't stand because they are not at all the temperament I want, even though they are fine dogs. Not all WGSL have roached back (and there are many working lines that are too "show typey" for my taste). Many of the WGSL are going to be more red than tan. Can you find examples of dogs you like, talk to the owners and breeders, and go from there?


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Basically a WGSL with as little "roached" back as possible and minimal red pigment. What exactly do we mean by temperament? I know what it means but does it imply a specific temperament? I want something in between. Not bouncing off the walls and not a couch potato.


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

http://rileyshome.com/wp-content/uploads/12_4_orig.jpg

For example.

Its back isn't as angled as most of the WGSLs ive seen and its mainly black/tan with the saddle back but it also has a touch of red. And i nice broad muzzle.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

That looks like a WGSL. Many of them are moderate like that. That dog looks to have more curve in his back than my WGSL.

As far as temperament it's not just one thing, it's a combination of drives, nerves, threshold, etc.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

I think you may be describing a dog like oso.hes very well bred,hips and elbows excellent and he's a straight back but definately not a ddr type or show in either the americanized term or german either.but saying that he is the most beautiful shepherd with the most amazing sweet temperment.he's old school style which i adore.he is also big.people often ask if he is a king when they meet him on the street.one more thing to list is he's healthy as a horse so i am never concerned about upsetting his stomach somehow or worrying about some other issue.the problem around here is actually finding a good breeder that specializes in his type.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't know much about Showlines...but I met a very nice lady at a SchH seminar with a dog from Mittelwest which is a very well known breeder of German Showlines. I liked her dog. It seemed like a perfect match for her- not a serious competitor in SchH really, but enough to dabble and a nice temperament and very stable with people. He was a coat, and I thought he was pretty handsome.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

If you look up some good king shepherd breeders this is what they look like.the coat even though kings can have plush,the size of the head and muzzle and unless that lady is a midget he seems huge!but gorgeous dog though.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

And you can find saddle backed Working line dogs. You're going to be more apt to find them in West German lines I would expect. The Dam of my dogs was a Black and Tan saddle and would throw puppies with her coloring. She had good temperament and a lot of drive too. 









You can find what you are looking for, but it takes time and research, and the ability to make some trips.


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

tierra nuestra said:


> If you look up some good king shepherd breeders this is what they look like.the coat even though kings can have plush,the size of the head and muzzle and unless that lady is a midget he seems huge!but gorgeous dog though.



She is  She's like 5ft nothing. Don't get me wrong, he was not a small dog...but it was mostly coat.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

I just checked out their dogs on their site and their studs look highly roached and super refined back end.The coated in the pictures does not look so roached but his coat may hide a bit.


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

tierra nuestra said:


> I think you may be describing a dog like oso.hes very well bred,hips and elbows excellent and he's a straight back but definately not a ddr type or show in either the americanized term or german either.but saying that he is the most beautiful shepherd with the most amazing sweet temperment.he's old school style which i adore.he is also big.people often ask if he is a king when they meet him on the street.one more thing to list is he's healthy as a horse so i am never concerned about upsetting his stomach somehow or worrying about some other issue.the problem around here is actually finding a good breeder that specializes in his type.


That dog looks perfect! Although the 3rd picture isn't the same as the first two, right?

So basically im looking for WGSL but with specifics like i mentioned; Straighter back, not as red, with a good temperament. Im going to be interacting with him a lot, i want him to be my hobby. Teach him tricks and spend a lot of 1 on 1 time with him. But i doubt i will take him to any shows/SchH


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Gorbi vom Kirschenwald is more of a black and tan, not as red/orange as other WGSL and this dog has a HUGE broad head (I have seen him and several progeny in person).


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

^ That one looks really good too. The color is exactly what i want. Black/tan with a saddle back and a touch of red pigment. Also a really nice head/muzzle! And the back isn't too angled/roached either. Really like that one.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Contact Gayle Kirkwood at Kirschenwald Shepherds.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Aralez said:


> That dog looks perfect! Although the 3rd picture isn't the same as the first two, right?
> 
> So basically im looking for WGSL but with specifics like i mentioned; Straighter back, not as red, with a good temperament. Im going to be interacting with him a lot, i want him to be my hobby. Teach him tricks and spend a lot of 1 on 1 time with him. But i doubt i will take him to any shows/SchH


no the third is my bitches line.but thats why I got her too.But this line came from scotland.


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

Aralez said:


> That dog looks perfect! Although the 3rd picture isn't the same as the first two, right?
> 
> So basically im looking for WGSL but with specifics like i mentioned; Straighter back, not as red, with a good temperament. Im going to be interacting with him a lot, i want him to be my hobby. Teach him tricks and spend a lot of 1 on 1 time with him. But i doubt i will take him to any shows/SchH


Then a ddr type or any working line may not be your cup of tea.if an occasional trick and just a really good friend is what you are looking for,I suggest staying away from most working lines as they need dedication and stimulation.Saying that there are some out there that may fill your needs but not as likely as an old fashion type or pet.Like many of the other posters have stated,research your breeder and ask questions.TONS AND TONS.Ask for references and past puppy buyer testimonials.Ask what vet she uses and then contact her vet.The vet should be able to give good reference material on her dogs.Ask her permission of course first but any good breeder should be willing to disclose their vet history.When I was looking for our first gsd,I asked many breeders if i could talk to their vet.Many would/could not give the info.They were crossed off my list.See the dam and sire plus hip scores and elbows,eye and any other genetic testing that was done.People may say geez thats alot to ask of a person but when they are asking $1000 or more for a pup, then they can well afford to have the basics done to insure they are selling a good healthy pup if more buyers demanded this practice then I believe there would be alot less crappy breeders out there.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My two well bred working lines are my best pets. They have an "off" switch and are very calm and well-mannered in the house, even the 5 month old puppy.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liesje said:


> Most of my training friends have working line dogs and there's a good many of them I can't stand because they are not at all the temperament I want, even though they are fine dogs.


----------



## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

Lies, could you elaborate a bit on the differences you see between the working lines you want, and the working lines your training friends own? You describe them as fine dogs, but fine Schutzhund dogs or fine companions, but simply not for you? Or do you only see them as good protection sport dogs but not an ideal companion? 

I still envy that you have a calm and well mannered 5 month old puppy. Now I _really_ want a Boy pup.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

REI I sent you a PM since it's a bit off topic.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wanted to know your views too, can you pm me, Lies....actually I don't think it is off topic, the OP may want to know as well~there are so many "what, ifs and buts" to choosing a line, they may be swayed one way or another with more information!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Pan reminds me of what I saw of Karlo as a puppy. Very clear-headed. No nerves, but not overloaded with drive or hyper-activity.

I prefer more defense than prey drive in protection, and a medium or high threshold. I also do not want any handler sensitivity, that's a biggy for me. I like food/hunt drive but not so much that the dog appears spastic for food (same with prey drive for ball). I just like to see that the dog is clear-headed and is actually thinking and learning, not just reacting or overloading in drive. It must be a dog I can live with in the house, not just kenneled or crated. I chose Pan because I liked what the breeder said about the litter, both the pros and what others might perceive as cons. I think Pan's a bit more of a "sleeper", but will eventually bring more power than Nikon. Also I am looking for certain things as far as conformation and don't like to compromise on that.


----------



## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Aralez said:


> Thank you, very informative. Yeah, i was just considering doing the basic level of PP. I don't really know much about it but i would like him to know whats a threat and what isn't. And hopefully to even get aggressive on command.
> 
> I live in LA, CA.
> 
> Ive been wondering...what lines are the ones that are black/tan saddle back instead of the WGSL which are black/red? I know American showlines are but are there any others? Im not a fan of American Show.



Lundborg Land and Thinschmidt German Shepherds in Riverside have very nice WGSL dogs, I show out here in Southern California and there are a lot of very nice dogs from these kennels, of course my boy in my avatar is a Showline and everything you are looking for, though he is probably a lot redder than what you are looking for, ironic in that I didn't want black and tan, the redder the better for me!


----------



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Alright so any recommendations on breeders who have WGSL GSDs with minimal back angulation/roach in SoCal? Ive seen some breeders and their dogs have like half a circle at the hind. Its disgusting and looks deformed. Any breeders that are a part of this board?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think you'd be better off looking at specific dogs and lines. Most show line breeders are going to get quite a bit if that "type" because that's what most of the show line dogs look like. You can also evaluate the puppies themselves once they are born. Or, look for a young, "green" (not titled, no or minimal training) dog so you get a better picture of conformation and temperament.


----------

