# Being a responsible breeder means ...



## Lauri & The Gang

... being able to own up to your mistakes.

Hi, my name is Lauri and while I AM a responsible breeder I am also human and I made a *STUPID* mistake!!

I can't explain why I did what I did. It was a momentary lapse in brain power that may have consequences but I am owning up to them right away.

My Chinese Crested bitch, Kaynya, is in season. I have 3 intact males living in the house with us (and her) - Mauser (GSD) and 2 boys from her previous litters - Spike who is 3 and Fuego who is 1. She has been through seasons before with these boys here and we've had no problems keeping them separated.

Now before anyone panics - no, Mauser did NOT get to Kaynya!

On Friday one of Kaynya's puppies came to spend the weekend. Clark is from her last litter (Fuego's brother), is just over a year old and is intact. I co-own Clark and was hoping to show him. He has been having issues with chewing on his hair so we were waiting to see if he outgrew it.

Yesterday afternoon I was rotating dogs. Kaynya went out for a quick potty then she came in and the rest of the gang went outside. I didn't want to leave Clark outside too long so I waited and then brought just him inside. I walked into the house and set him down, then went into the kitchen to get something.

Two minutes. That's all it took. I suddenly realized that Kaynya was loose and so was Clark and when I turned around they were tied. 

I refuse to do the mismate shot (too many risks) and I do not want to spay her (personal choice).

So, I'm HOPING that she doesn't get pregnant. I'm hoping that it was too early in her cycle (it's close though) and I'm hoping that since it was Clark's "first time" he didn't have much in the way of sperm count.

BUT - I'm also already preparing for the chance of her being pregnant.

Fuego & Clark's litter was a repeat of Spikes and it is a line breeding. I'm going to go dig out the pedigrees and see HOW close it was.


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## WarrantsWifey

Accidents happen..... I forgive you!  HEHE!


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## Emoore

So she may have mated with her son?


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## middleofnowhere

May low sperm count and out-of-sych cycle be visited upon your household. If wishes would make it come true, I'm sure you'd be in the clear. 

Unfortunately sperm remains viable for a while - I forget how long. 
I worry having an intact bitch and I've only gone through two heat cycles with her.


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## sagelfn

Respect for admitting it. There is a big difference between a breeder who is responsible with an accidental litter vs your regular joe with an accidental litter.


Stupid question alert

Lauri- When you catch them tied what do you do? 
I'm thinking I would begin shocked yelling "no! no! off! off! get away!!" waving my hands around like a lunatic. I've heard many stories about bitches needing to be muzzled during mating and wondering if that behavior would get one bit. Also, since they have already tied... well does it matter how long?


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## GSDElsa

IT seems like the linebreeding shouldn't be so much a concern--either way it is INbreeding.

What are you going to do if she is pregnant? I'm not sure what the possible health issues that can crop up from this kind of breeding with dogs.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Emoore said:


> So she may have mated with her son?


Yes.


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## Lauri & The Gang

sagelfn said:


> Respect for admitting it. There is a big difference between a breeder who is responsible with an accidental litter vs your regular joe with an accidental litter.
> 
> 
> Stupid question alert
> 
> Lauri- When you catch them tied what do you do?
> I'm thinking I would begin shocked yelling "no! no! off! off! get away!!" waving my hands around like a lunatic. I've heard many stories about bitches needing to be muzzled during mating and wondering if that behavior would get one bit. Also, since they have already tied... well does it matter how long?


When I turned around and saw them I didn't think he was tied so I started to yell "ACK!". When I realized they were tied I knew it was too late.

I sat down on the floor and held Kaynya because she was trying to pull away. Forcing dogs apart after they have tied can actually break the males penis.

Dogs don't HAVE to tie to pass the sperm to the female. There are what is called 'outside' ties. The male's penis has bulbs on the side. When he penetrates the female the bulbs enlarge and keep the penis 'locked' inside the female - aka tied.

Sometimes the tie doesn't happen but the sperm are passed anyway.

Some females do not WANT to be bred and have to be muzzled and such.


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## holland

All the best-those Chinese crested are kinda cute-are they good at obedience


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## Lauri & The Gang

GSDElsa said:


> IT seems like the linebreeding shouldn't be so much a concern--either way it is INbreeding.
> 
> What are you going to do if she is pregnant? I'm not sure what the possible health issues that can crop up from this kind of breeding with dogs.


IF she is pregnant the puppies have the potential to either get the very best of both parents or the very WORST.

The only good thing about this is that Clark is a Powder Puff. Breeding a Hairless to a Hairless is a calculated risk to begin with. Doing it so close (inbreeding) would be a serious problem.

Kaynya's temperament is 100% perfect. She is extremely outgoing, loves EVERYONE and is very dog friendly. Her eyes are checked every year (CCs are prone to eye issues) and she has VERY good teeth for a hairless (the hairless gene causes teeth issues). She has nice structure and comes from very good lines.

It will be a tough decision on what to do if she IS pregnant. While I do have several people waiting for puppies, I don't like having winter litters with the Cresteds (the puppies would be ready the beginning of December) because it can make housebreaking hard. The pups, especially the hairless ones, cannot take very cold temperatures.

It also makes it harder to get them out and socialize them and they can become shy if you don't take them out.


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## Lauri & The Gang

holland said:


> All the best-those Chinese crested are kinda cute-are they good at obedience


They are extremely biddable and love to do things with their people.


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## sagelfn

Lauri & The Gang said:


> ...Forcing dogs apart after they have tied can actually break the males penis.
> 
> Dogs don't HAVE to tie to pass the sperm to the female. There are what is called 'outside' ties. The male's penis has bulbs on the side. When he penetrates the female the bulbs enlarge and keep the penis 'locked' inside the female - aka tied...


 Added to the list of reasons I'll never be a breeder. Still good info to have if you ever catch 2 dogs tied.


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## Lilie

Lauri, you are going about this all the wrong way. You need to _pretend_ you are excited about the possibility of her being pregnant. _Pretend_ that this was a very carefully thought out mating and you've waited along time for it. 

Thinking along those lines, she won't be pregnant.


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## Emoore

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Yes.


Oh Ok. I was a little confused at the wording. Here's hoping the boy was shooting blanks! Keep us posted.



Lilie said:


> Lauri, you are going about this all the wrong way. You need to _pretend_ you are excited about the possibility of her being pregnant. _Pretend_ that this was a very carefully thought out mating and you've waited along time for it.
> 
> Thinking along those lines, she won't be pregnant.


Lol exactly. Go ahead and start taking deposits; then you'll be guaranteed to have no pups.


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## GSDElsa

If she is pregnant may I suggest that consider requiring all puppies to be spayed amd neutered? I definitely don't see any good coming out of the puppies breeding down the line.


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## selzer

Behind every cloud is a silver lining. 

If she IS pregnant and has a litter, you will likely see what ressessive genes the pair of them have. It is not all that uncommon for people to do this with an up and coming stud, just to know the the youngster is likely to produce. I don't think I will, but I would not get too worked up about it. 

I think that when the female is receptive, she is much less likely to require a muzzle. But even if you do generally muzzle, after the tie, the muzzle can generally be removed. No chance at separating them if tied, that could hurt them. the bulbs swell, and I think the female's ring of muscle contracts, and well, I think both parties can be injured if you try pulling them apart.

Look at the bright side, if it was GSDs, she would MOST DEFINITELY be pregnant, and she would have 14 puppies.


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## JakodaCD OA

Sue, I'm kinda surprised you didn't read Lauri the riot act since we all know your 'stance' on "oops" litters)


Anyhoo,,can you imagine the mix of Mauser and her?? LOL,,what would they be called, crestasheppies) Sorry didn't mean to make light of it 

Bummer, but I know whatever happens they will be in the best possible hands


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## Freestep

JakodaCD OA said:


> Sue, I'm kinda surprised you didn't read Lauri the riot act since we all know your 'stance' on "oops" litters)


Me too, I was thinking "uh oh, wait until Selzer reads this, Lauri's gonna get it!!"

The more I see of Chinese Cresteds, the more I like them. I'd almost be tempted to take one of these puppies, since I wouldn't be interested in breeding or anything like that. So let's all *hope* she's pregnant, and by so doing, the breeding will not take. 

I know a lady who breeds collies, and had an accidental brother/sister mating. Unfortunately, both dogs were merle, so about half the pups had some degree of blindness/deafness. Apart from the double merle issue, the pups turned out very nice and a couple of them were placed in show homes. I don't think they had any health problems other than what is caused by double merle.


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## Lauri & The Gang

JakodaCD OA said:


> Sue, I'm kinda surprised you didn't read Lauri the riot act since we all know your 'stance' on "oops" litters)


And she would have been well within her rights to read me the riot act. I'm STILL chastising myself for doing something SO stupid!!



> Anyhoo,,can you imagine the mix of Mauser and her?? LOL,,what would they be called, crestasheppies)


Well, if the act of breeding didn't kill poor Kaynya and carrying the litter didn't kill her - she would either have miniature GSDs, Giant Chinese Cresteds or some mutant mix of hairless German Crested Shepherds!!! :O


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## Lauri & The Gang

GSDElsa said:


> If she is pregnant may I suggest that consider requiring all puppies to be spayed amd neutered? I definitely don't see any good coming out of the puppies breeding down the line.


That's going to be a problem. I don't believe in spay and neuter unless it's for health reasons.

They will be sold on limited registrations and I will recommend vasectomies for the males after they physically mature (around a year). 

I would also be VERY picky who gets a female. Wish I knew a vet in my area that did Tubals on females!


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## Freestep

Lauri & The Gang said:


> That's going to be a problem. I don't believe in spay and neuter unless it's for health reasons.


So will you not sell a pup to someone who intends to spay/neuter?


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## selzer

Ok, 

Laurie:

The Riot Act:

AAAAaaaarg!!!!! Your making a liar out of ME!!!!

Ok, done. 


I guess I can see how it happened, though. You normally have three dogs, and you let one up in the house, I can see that happening. Lots of people do not even know that breeders are sometimes overnight-doggy sitters. It is a lot more difficult for a breeder to say, I screwed up and let my dogs get tied, than a pet owner. And sometimes the consequences are worse too. 

I think ordinary pet owners are likely to breed their pets, and then say whoops. That cleans up all the messy questions, are they titled, are their hips x-rayed, why so young. Well, it was an accident and you cannot stop accidents from happening, so we get a get out of jail free card. A breeder already answers the tough questions, they might say whoops if they deliberately bred a bitch too young or before hips and elbows were done, but to me those cancel. There is no good incentive for a breeder to say whoops. 

One day when I knew I was going to breed Babs to Rushie, I put Babs in a different kennel to make that easier that morning. When I got home that night, it was dark, I forgot that move and let Jenna into Rushie's kennel, ICK! Jenna was NOT in heat, and well, I COULD have accidentally bred the wrong bitch if she was. I get a bit used to my routine, I could see three dogs running around and think it fine to put one inside. Of course, if my bitch was in heat she would not be running around outside with two intact males. But I can see thinking, he wants to come in, ok, the other two are out there, he will be ok in the house.


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## gagsd

Dexamethasone is an alternative to the mismate, and much safer.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Freestep said:


> So will you not sell a pup to someone who intends to spay/neuter?


Well, it would depend. I would try to encourage tubals or vasectomy but if someone was a perfect home in all respects except for that one thing - I would give in and just insist that it be after at least a year of age.


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## selzer

I have always heard that if you have a female that you intend to breed get pregnant, let her have the pups, that is safest for her reproductive health. I would not abort puppies only because they were closely related. It is not like they will come out with two heads. You have to remember that most breeds began with very tight inbreeding. They also say the best way to get a champion out of a champion is to breed father to daughter, mother to son. They will do this to test recessives and sometimes to solidify type, and then they breed out again.


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## GSDElsa

Lauri & The Gang said:


> That's going to be a problem. I don't believe in spay and neuter unless it's for health reasons.
> 
> They will be sold on limited registrations and I will recommend vasectomies for the males after they physically mature (around a year).
> 
> I would also be VERY picky who gets a female. Wish I knew a vet in my area that did Tubals on females!


Do you not see a 1-2 inbreed as a serious health concern if the dogs somehow ended up breeding down the road? No mater what those are not genetics that should be passed on. I would not think you would want to takd the risk.


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## sparra

I have been researching this (in-breeding) and have found it is more common than most think. 
My understanding is that it does not "create" health issues only brings out those that are already there. So if there are no underlying health issues then the pups would be fine. So the old belief that if you breed close relatives you will have health issues is only true if the health issues are there in the first place. Also works the other way.....it brings out the good traits of the dogs too. So future breeding of the pups to dogs not related wouldn't be an issue *IF* there were no health issues in the parents.....does that sound right??
(not saying that would be the right thing to do:blush


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## Chris Wild

Yes, sparra, that is absolutely correct. Inbreeding doesn't create health problems. What it can do is make it more likely for recessives to combine to create health issues, simply because two closely related dogs are more likely to carry the same recessives, whereas less closely related dogs have a wider variety of genes and the chances of any particular set of recessives combining is lower. But if health issues do exist in inbred pups, it is only because those genes were there to begin with (just might not have come to the surface). Nothing about the act of inbreeding caused them.

And because this sort of thing can help reveal what recessives a particular dog or bloodline possesses, it is often done intentionally just for that reason. Certainly not intentional in this case, but I've no doubt after she's done kicking herself that Lauri will handle any pups that result responsibly, and the experience may well yield some good information about the genetics in the lines to serve as a silver lining as Sue mentioned.

No doubt Lauri will be kicking herself for a while, and hoping and praying that no pregnancy results


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## bocron

Father/daughter or Mother/son breedings are not uncommon when a breeder is trying to establish the presence or lack of a specific trait. It is not as common now, but has been used in the past to determine breeding traits. I believe it is still pretty common in certain livestock (chickens and pigs to name 2 I can recall). It's not going to "create" issues in the pups. Not the best "oops" to happen, but it won't generally mean you are bringing pups doomed to a miserable life due to "inbreeding". The OP is dealing with it the best way she has determined and sounds like she has a handle on it, so good on her!
I had a client who brought me his Cavaliers for boarding a year or so ago. The young female (about 6 mos) came into heat for the first time the day before they dropped her off. The owner was very glad I was keeping the dogs since he knew I was experienced and would take every precaution. The owner is also an OB-GYN so is not shy about discussing such subjects with me on a regular basis. Anyway the last day or so that the dogs were here one of his males (he had 2) would hide every time I got her out (he was in a separate area but could see her through the gate). Anyway we'd always joked how that one little male was "gay" since all the males were forever trying to breed him and he was just very timid and was NEVER interested when the girls in season were around. They picked the dogs up and I warned him that Chaz was being kind of anxious about her and he laughed and said he wasn't surprised. Anyway I get a call about 15 minutes later, saying the dogs had tied in his driveway. They were unloading the dogs and in the 2 seconds it took them to open the 2 different crates from the car, he hit the ground and saw his chance and took it LOL. We decided that he was just being sly all that time and used it to his advantage. I was soooo glad it happened on their watch.

Annette


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## Dainerra

I believe that the GSD breed was founded with a LOT of mother/son and father/daughter breedings, was it not?


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## NarysDad

Well Lauri hope things go well and she didn't take. Although I wouldn't consider you as a irresponsible breeder to start. I hear of things like this happening, but what I see is other breeders hiding what had happened and just go on and pass on the pups to their clients as if it was a planned breeding only afraid to admit that they made a mistake.

I know a breeder out west that had a accidental breeding between 2- 9 month old litter mates and they passed it off onto their clients and told them it was a real close line breed and hoped that the clients weren't smart enough to see that in fact that the mom and dad were brother and sister and when they got called out on it all they could say was that accidents happen and still today feel they had done nothing wrong. This is where you and I and other breeders separate themselves from breeders like this


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

gagsd said:


> Dexamethasone is an alternative to the mismate, and much safer.


Sent me googling!

Pregnancy Termination for Undesired Matings in Dogs - Page 1

http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/wanke/IVIS.pdf a little old (9yrs - I am sure things have changed re availability, more studies)

Pregnancy prevention 4 years old - student work?


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## Good_Karma

A round of applause for the fact that someone admitted to making a mistake. Lauri, that takes guts, especially on this forum. Best wishes that it all turns out okay.


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## NarysDad

Good_Karma said:


> A round of applause for the fact that someone admitted to making a mistake. Lauri, that takes guts, especially on this forum. Best wishes that it all turns out okay.



Yes in today's world most don't want to admit when they make a mistake. It only shows we are all HUMAN !


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## BowWowMeow

Ok, I'll offer another opinion on this situation. Why is ok for Lauri to have an oops litter between relatives when it's not ok for other people that aren't popular or known people on this forum? And why does saying you made a mistake make you a better person/breeder than others who also choose to have the litter? 

And why not check into that safer alternative for an early abortion? 

It's fine to say you don't believe in speutering but that means you can't make mistakes that end up with a dog unintentionally pregnant.


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## gagsd

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/wanke/IVIS.pdf


An excellent article with alternatives for anyone who is considering terminating an unplanned litter.
I never knew about the Dexamethasone option until I came across this awhile back.


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## spiritsmom

Kinda funny that if a new member had posted this about their dogs, they would have been driven out of here so fast with nasty posts about how awful they are and that they should immediately abort the dog and so on and so forth. A longtime member posts this and it's all okay? 

I don't really care one way or the other if it's a longtime member or a brand new one - I don't see the point in chastising to the point of being mean in either case. But it's just funny how most of these posts would not have been so nice had she been a much newer member. 

In this case hope it works out whichever way it is wanted to. Good luck!


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## Freestep

BowWowMeow said:


> Why is ok for Lauri to have an oops litter between relatives when it's not ok for other people that aren't popular or known people on this forum? And why does saying you made a mistake make you a better person/breeder than others who also choose to have the litter?


I was wondering the same thing. Not to say that we *should* be jumping down Lauri's throat! 

When I mentioned awhile back that my dear Luka, along with several outstanding littermates, are the product of an "oops" breeding (which was NOT inbred), there is such outrage... there's "no excuse" for it, the breeder is irresponsible, perhaps even devious! Then when Lauri admits it..."behind every cloud is a silver lining"? 

Do the rules change according to who the breeder is?

Not knocking you, Lauri, I know that even the best breeders can make mistakes, and sometimes there are serendipities. If it weren't for my breeder's "mistake", a lot of outstanding, multi-titled working dogs that wouldn't have been born, and I wouldn't have the two dogs I have today.


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## lillianne

NarysDad said:


> Well Lauri hope things go well and she didn't take. Although I wouldn't consider you as a irresponsible breeder to start. I hear of things like this happening, but what I see is other breeders hiding what had happened and just go on and pass on the pups to their clients as if it was a planned breeding only afraid to admit that they made a mistake.
> 
> I know a breeder out west that had a accidental breeding between 2- 9 month old litter mates and they passed it off onto their clients and told them it was a real close line breed and hoped that the clients weren't smart enough to see that in fact that the mom and dad were brother and sister and when they got called out on it all they could say was that accidents happen and still today feel they had done nothing wrong. This is where you and I and other breeders separate themselves from breeders like this


Does that excuse your own 1 or 2 Oops litters per year, every year, fine sir? It should not, you know. 

LT


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## selzer

The difference is a pet owner who wants puppies, but does not want to wait until the bitch is two, or until there are titles, or until the ofa's are done, they play the OOPS card like it is a WILD DRAW FOUR. 

A breeder who plays the OOPS card is always doing so with so much disgrace. If I am looking at pups, and a breeder says the litter was an oops, well I will probably pass. Why are they telling me that, an excuse for having two litters on the ground at the same time? Or is their something wrong with the sire or dam or the pairing? In any case a breeder who cannot keep their dogs separated, well, I find that pretty hard to just accept. 

So why is Laurie different? I guess my only answer is that she is flatly blaming herself, not a nephew or a husband or a kid, and she has no reason to tell us this anyway. I mean, it is not like she is looking for potential crestid owners on the GSD site, though she might find some. I figure she is having a horrible day, feeling terrible about it, and sharing that. I see no reason to kick someone when they are down. The silver lining is true by the way, it WILL show the recessives. It is NOT the end of the world, and good CAN come out of it.

I can be just as wicked about people letting their GSDs roam. I will go to town on people who say their dog goes down the road on their own to play with the children down the street, or someone who says his dog visits his neighbor regularly. But when someone comes on saying their dog just got hit by a car, or shot by their neighbor, I generally do not tell them how stupid they were for leaving the dog run loose.


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## RubyTuesday

> I was wondering the same thing. Not to say that we *should* be jumping down Lauri's throat!


I agree. Perhaps in the future people will remember this & show others the same respect & compassion.



> The difference is a pet owner who wants puppies, but does not want to wait until the bitch is two, or until there are titles, or until the ofa's are done, they play the OOPS card like it is a WILD DRAW FOUR.


Exactly how do you *know* this? Any of us could make wild & unflattering conjectures about other breeders & owners, but why? One doesn't need to express gushing approval to remain courteous & respectful.



> Does that excuse your own 1 or 2 Oops litters per year, every year, fine sir? It should not, you know.


Is there a particular reason for your snark or is it just part of your charm?


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## selzer

RubyTuesday said:


> I agree. Perhaps in the future people will remember this & show others the same respect & compassion.
> 
> *Exactly how do you *know* this? Any of us could make wild & unflattering conjectures about other breeders & owners, but why? One doesn't need to express gushing approval to remain courteous & respectful.*
> 
> Is there a particular reason for your snark or is it just part of your charm?


Only in response to the bolded:

Oops litters are a problem. They are a problem because people have it in their heads that breeding dogs is for some reason unacceptable. And they have it in their heads that if it was an accidental pairing, then that is somehow ok. But way too many of the "accidents" are actually on purpose. And when people blame the almighty OOPS to get a get out of jail free car, they increase people's opinion that dogs cannot be maintained intact without unintentional breedings, and people try to pass stupid laws concerning spay and neuter. So it is a problem when people say whoops, don't hate me. It is every bit as bad as people letting their GSD go around biting people. It actually hurts those of us who do not believe in unnecessary surgeries, because of health concerns. Just like people allowing their dogs to bite people gets us all in trouble with insurance companies and breed specific laws.

I just don't buy it. I believe that most of the incidents of oopses are people who wanted their dog to have puppies, or did not care if their dog did, but as the day draws nearer, they suddenly realize they need information. If someone comes on the site saying, I bred my dog to my bitch and expect puppies on this date, I have some questions -- they will be lambasted. But at least THEY are taking responsibility for breeding their dogs. 

Someone comes one and says Fluffy got Morgan when we left them lose together while we were out having a dip in the hot tub, and everyone is supposed to throw flowers and welcome them to the board because they are human, and it is so very difficult to keep dog and bitch separated. 

It is NOT hard to manage intact bitches. Laurie would agree to that. And all these oopses give a real false impression which encourages people to mutilate their dogs, causing all kinds of problems down the road for them because they are AFRAID to keep a female intact. I find that incredibly sad.


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## Liesje

I sometimes respond to threads like this, sometimes not. If I do, it's generally just to offer suggestions, but I haven't responded here yet because Laurie has already addressed every suggestion I might offer (abortion, mis-mate, speuter contract, etc). Also I have met Laurie and she's been on here a long time. No, it is not a popularity contest but obviously my post will be different directed toward someone I've met, someone whose dogs' health and reproductive history I already know more about than most of my close family and friends. Does that make it "OK"? Don't know and don't care because when, why, and to whom people breed there dogs is not much of a concern for me.


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## Betty

In my opinion this would be between Laurie and her puppy buyers and is not really any one else's business. And even at that the only explanation I think she is morally required to give in the mother/son breeding with it's potential risks and/or benefits. Same thing with any breeding. 

Any time you have intact dogs there is a risk of an accidental breeding. The more you try and have them live as more of a member of the family and not in a kennel set up like Fort Knox the higher the risk. 

I choose to rotate my dogs in the house so that a kennel is not all they know. I choose to let my kenneled dogs out in the yard with me when it's their turn in the kennel. Because of my choices I am at a higher risk for an accidental breeding then someone that does not. I can live with that, in my mind the benefits far out weigh the risk.

IMO the accidental breeding does not make her irresponsible, and her on line confession does not make her responsible. 

For me she screens her homes well and that's my biggie. If I knew anyone that wanted one of those little dogs I would send them to her in a minute.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> And all these oopses give a real false impression which encourages people to mutilate their dogs, causing all kinds of problems down the road for them because they are AFRAID to keep a female intact. I find that incredibly sad.


Oh, so your issue is that the "false" threat of "oops" litters encourages people to spay/neuter their dogs?

I don't see that as a bad thing at all. And I don't see the threat as false.

Nor do I view spay/neuter as "mutilation".

If it reduces the number of animals in shelters, rescue, and on the streets, I'm all for spay/neuter. Especially for your average pet owner who doesn't want to keep their dogs inside Fort Knox. Personally, I like not having to worry about heat cycles and accidental litters, and your average responsible pet owner is likely (I hope) to feel the same way.


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## Betty

I agree, I think calling spaying/neutering mutilation is uncalled for and is really not that much different then people that demand spaying/neutering. Both are calling on the emotions.

It should be an individual decision based on the person's lifestyle. For most pet homes spaying/neutering is really preferable.


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## boeselager

I give Lauri credit for coming on here and admitting her mistake. It does happen, people get too busy etc. I wouldn't jump down her throat for 1 mistake, but if it's 1-2 Oops litters a year, that's something Totally different. When/if you have that many oops litters a year, every year then I personally would Not call that an oops litter.


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## selzer

The longer I live, the more like mutilation I feel it is. That is my opinion of doing unnecessary surgery on a dog that affects their hormonal activity and very possibly affects their overall health and lifespan. 

I think that spaying can affect the natural growth and aging process. 

There is a reason they do not do this without cause to human females. But this will steer this conversation way off base, so I will desist. 

Last I heard I was allowed to have an opinion on things. It is not an attack on everyone who spays or neuters. It is an attack on the overall process and the frequency of doing it. I find it incredibly sad, because I think that it is the misinformation that drives people to do this. Misinformation from vets, from the animal activists, from those who have NEVER owned an intact bitch but want you to spay yours because they did and they think it is the right thing to do. Misinformation from a skewed number of reported oopses. 

Now some of you are saying, look a well-known breeder has had an oops. See, See, every pet owner that has an oops should be given a free pass now, because even breeders can't keep them from getting together. And the next step: everyone knows how difficult it is to keep male and female intact without breeding them, so we need for everyone to spay and neuter else, the puppies!!! Make it a law, Make It A Law. MAKE IT A LAW!!! 

Having the lifespan go from 12-14 to 10-12 with it not uncommon for dogs to die at 9, NINE! Don't bother to do a necropsy because that is about right. 10 - 12 is an average. That means dogs make it past 12, and others do not make it to ten. But that is perfectly ok, because it might mean someone else did not have an oops litter of puppies.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Having the lifespan go from 12-14 to 10-12 with it not uncommon for dogs to die at 9, NINE! Don't bother to do a necropsy because that is about right. 10 - 12 is an average. That means dogs make it past 12, and others do not make it to ten. But that is perfectly ok, because it might mean someone else did not have an oops litter of puppies.


Wait, are you saying that spay/neuter reduces lifespan? I think I have read studies that found the opposite is true. 

Having worked with animals in a professional capacity for over 20 years, I can tell you I have seen many, many dogs live well up into their teens. Almost all were spayed/neutered. In fact I can't think of an intact bitch that simply died of old age. Granted, these days I don't see very many intact bitches in the grooming shop.

In my experience, The only difference I have noticed in aging between intact and altered dogs is that the intact males tend to get more ornery as they age, whereas neutered males tend to become more placid.


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## carmspack

sometimes telling people to take a hike.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## GSDElsa

Betty said:


> In my opinion this would be between Laurie and her puppy buyers and is not really any one else's business. .


I've always found that an interesting stance when one has posted on a public internet forum. When you do, you've suddenly made it every who reads it business, sorry.


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## Jax08

selzer said:


> Having the lifespan go from 12-14 to 10-12 with it not uncommon for dogs to die at 9, NINE! Don't bother to do a necropsy because that is about right. 10 - 12 is an average. That means dogs make it past 12, and others do not make it to ten. But that is perfectly ok, because it might mean someone else did not have an oops litter of puppies.


I'm sorry but in my experience that is not true. 12 year old Boxer spayed at 6 months. She had cancer (mast cell) at 5 years old. Thyroid at about 6 years old. Both highly probable in Boxers. She developed more growths about a year ago. 12 years old...for a Boxer!...they usually don't live longer than 10 years old due to cancer. 

14 1/2 year old neutered rough coat Collie. Large dog, probably about 85 lbs. We let him go because his hips went and he was in extreme pain. His internal organs were in great working order. He could have easily lived years longer.

I think there are many more factors in age of death than just spay and neuter.


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## Betty

I know laws regarding dog ownership is a hot bottom for you Sue, but I'm having a hard time following how the potential for pups out of this breeding, and board members attitudes towards it, can cause more spay/neuter laws. 

And it goes without saying that you have the right to think of it as mutilation and even to refer to it as mutilation. I do have the right to think that mutilation is a very strong and negative word and perhaps was chosen for those very reasons.

Neutering is a personal decision and with the internet so readily available it is more easy then ever for someone to research and come to their own informed decision.


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## Betty

GSDElsa said:


> I've always found that an interesting stance when one has posted on a public internet forum. When you do, you've suddenly made it every who reads it business, sorry.


Can't disagree with that!


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## Jack's Dad

The area I live in most people have one or more dogs. It's scary to even imagine all the oops litters or whatever you want to call them that would be occurring if all these dogs were intact, so as not to mutilate them.

The last GSD before the one I have now spay at 6 months died at 13. Before her neutered huge Black Lab 14 yrs old.


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## Stella's Mom

My female is 6.5 months and is intact. I will be sure that an ooops litter does not happen by keeping her away from intact males while in heat. I only own 1 dog, so I will not have this problem at home.

My vet told me that if you spay the female before her first heat it helps to reduce breast cancer. If you want to let your dog have 1 heat cycle, than you have to let her have 2 to reduce the risks of breast cancer. I am sure there are other opinions and studies on this, but at this time, I am committed to letting her go through her hormonal cycles and her life as an unspayed dog.


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## selzer

There was a study on Rottweilers, it was in dog fancy, or dog world, not sure which, and it had some pretty conclusive evidence that female Rottweilers that had considerably long lifespans, 13 and up, were either intact or spayed considerably later than what is usual. 

Every single dog out there that is alterred is not going to develop a disease that makes them die sooner, but what if those 12-13 year old altered dogs were NOT altered. Maybe they would have been healthier longer and lived longer. But we will never know, because every dog is different. 

Just because an owner does not spay or neuter does not mean they will let their bitch be bred. This is ridiculous. There ought to be puppy-mania in Europe where speuter is uncommon. 

People CAN keep their animals intact without breeding unplanned litters. I absolutely hate the idea that people can relax now because the bitch is spayed. I mean if you have an intact dog, yeah you will have to be vigilent when she is in heat, but if you do not own the dog, c'mon, that would be a containment issue. It is NEVER ok to have a containment issue.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I absolutely hate the idea that people can relax now because the bitch is spayed.


Why is it wrong for me to relax after my dog is spayed?


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## selzer

It is only bad when it means leaving the dog out on a line, or in a fenced yard while you are working, or simply letting her roam the property at will fence or not. If you are right there with your bitch, she is NOT going to be bred. You can stop them if you see them interacting and mounting, etc. If you want your intact male to be able to run around with your female 24/7, so you spay her, so be it, now you can relax. But if you are relaxing because of lack of containment for your bitch when you can't supervise, that is what I hate. Altered dogs can get run over or shot, or go and bite someone too.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Just because an owner does not spay or neuter does not mean they will let their bitch be bred. This is ridiculous. There ought to be puppy-mania in Europe where speuter is uncommon.


I know that spay/neuter is not as common in Europe, and I wonder what the unwanted pet population is like over there. I understand that in some areas of Eastern Europe there is a feral dog problem, but I haven't heard much about the situation in Western Europe. I would be interested to know what measures they use to keep a check on things. You can't tell me that there are no irresponsible people in all of Europe!


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## GSDElsa

Freestep said:


> I know that spay/neuter is not as common in Europe, and I wonder what the unwanted pet population is like over there. I understand that in some areas of Eastern Europe there is a feral dog problem, but I haven't heard much about the situation in Western Europe. I would be interested to know what measures they use to keep a check on things. You can't tell me that there are no irresponsible people in all of Europe!


Depends on the country. I know Germany really doesn't seem to have an issue, but the feral/stray problem is Ireland is pretty bad. 

Definitely worse in E. Europe though.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Put Europe in the find box here: http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/wanke/IVIS.pdf 

I see a lot of references to a lot of different drugs used after the fact in Europe. So it looks like they do after the fact population control. 

I figure since there's not a lot of science in this thread, my little assumption that perhaps they have a lot of oops that are medically terminated won't get in the way.


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> It is only bad when it means leaving the dog out on a line, or in a fenced yard while you are working, or simply letting her roam the property at will fence or not.


So whether spayed or not, I can't let my dogs out in a fenced yard? You know how much it cost me to fence in an entire acre for my dogs, now you are telling me I still shouldn't let my dogs out unless they are right by my side?  

My Akbash dog would beg to differ with you. He lives with his goats and poultry 24/7; he loves his people too, but I think I mentioned before what happened when his former owner tried to make him into a housedog.

Granted, I work from home, so even if my dogs are outside while I'm at work, I'm still there. Yes, bad things can happen to a dog even inside a fenced yard, which is why I don't generally leave my GSDs outside while I'm gone. But don't worry, since my breeder has talked me into leaving my pup intact for now, :crazy: I still get to be ultra-paranoid.


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## selzer

And, in Germany, it is not common practice to spay or neuter without a reason. 

I think it is attitude. We have an attitude here, oh well, accidents happen, we are having a litter, and I will post pictures when they come. When someone is pounding on themselves about it, you do not have to pound further. But when people say, what's done is done, so I do not want to hear it, it was an oops, and accidents happen. Well, THAT is the attitude that I want to fight. I want to fight the mindset that it is impossible to keep intact dogs without accidents, the mindset of "well, if it happens, it happens, oh well, now what do I need to do?" Or the mindset, well we really want puppies, but everyone will give me a hard time, so I will just say oops they got tied when I turned my back for just a second.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I have 100% mutilated animals (minus a foster puppy who will soon have his gorgonzolas removed) and I do not relax. It's not either or. 

I do live in an area where most pet owners do not leash or fence/supervise their pets. Whether they are speutered or not. It is awful. I was actually going over to get my foster puppy from a local whoops and while I was standing there there was almost a 4 dog (neighbors of the dog family I was visiting) fight. A Golden chasing a little dog, and two mastiff mixes going after the Golden - invisible fence collars on of course - it was nuts. I thought my gosh, my dogs would never make it in the "real world" that is my local culture. By the way, my demon voice works on other dogs too.  So much for purely positive.


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## gagsd

Germany, 20 years ago, "no-kill" shelter.
Absolutely stuffed with animals in a dark, dungeon like "shelter."

That town at least, had a pet overpopulation problem.


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## selzer

Freestep said:


> So whether spayed or not, I can't let my dogs out in a fenced yard? You know how much it cost me to fence in an entire acre for my dogs, now you are telling me I still shouldn't let my dogs out unless they are right by my side?
> 
> My Akbash dog would beg to differ with you. He lives with his goats and poultry 24/7; he loves his people too, but I think I mentioned before what happened when his former owner tried to make him into a housedog.
> 
> Granted, I work from home, so even if my dogs are outside while I'm at work, I'm still there. Yes, bad things can happen to a dog even inside a fenced yard, which is why I don't generally leave my GSDs outside while I'm gone. But don't worry, since my breeder has talked me into leaving my pup intact for now, :crazy: I still get to be ultra-paranoid.


I have an acre of property, and only a part of it is fenced. I do NOT leave the dogs in a fenced portion and go away and leave. They are kenneled, within the fenced yard, in kennels that are covered over and a base of concrete. Fort Knox, well yes. Not because I could not keep an intact female, but because I do not EVER again want to be in a position where I simply do not know where my dog is, whether she is starving, whether she is freezing, whether she is stuck in some trappers trap, whether she has been hit by a car, whether she has been shot for running deer, whether she might bite someone trying to help her, whether she is terrified, whether some slimeball has ducktaped her mouth shut and turned her lose with his aggressive dogs, or cut her paws off and is letting her bleed to death -- THAT is why I have Fort Knox. It is because I cannot handle a missing dog. I cannot imagine how a parent feels when their child goes missing, I think it would kill me.


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## GSDElsa

selzer said:


> And, in Germany, it is not common practice to spay or neuter without a reason.
> 
> I think it is attitude. We have an attitude here, oh well, accidents happen, we are having a litter, and I will post pictures when they come. When someone is pounding on themselves about it, you do not have to pound further. But when people say, what's done is done, so I do not want to hear it, it was an oops, and accidents happen. Well, THAT is the attitude that I want to fight. I want to fight the mindset that it is impossible to keep intact dogs without accidents, the mindset of "well, if it happens, it happens, oh well, now what do I need to do?" Or the mindset, well we really want puppies, but everyone will give me a hard time, so I will just say oops they got tied when I turned my back for just a second.


Sorry, it's a flat out cultural difference across the board. In Germany people leave their shop dogs out to bask in the sun without a leash on the front stoop, walk through city streets without the need of a leash, and take their dogs on public transportation.

There's really not much to fight because the US is the US and Germany is Germany. Having lived in both countries, there is quite a difference between the two. Not better or worse with either. Just different.

Granted, I can't speak for some of the larger more northern and industrial parts of Germany....I've really spent the majority of my time in Bavaria and the Black Forest area.


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## JakodaCD OA

Jean you are cracking me up with "gorgonzolas" LMBO


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## carmspack

I have 10 acres and when I am not out to directly supervise my dogs they are contained and happy in 12 x 12 covered kennels . 
My neighbour, long ago moved away , had a number of worrisome dogs , one which he adopted from the breeder when it was 5 weeks old so that he could hyper bond with it . They had the adjoining 10 acres. Their dogs were out all the time , all 4 or 5 of them, actually just remembered that the "big" dogs turned on the little old mini poodle cross and tore it to pieces. Those dogs were provactive at the fence line, and would barrel down the drive way at bicyclists and recreational horse riders and me when I would march the dogs around the block.
They were spayed and neutered. The husband was retired. The wife manufactured arts and crafts from the home. 
They refused to kennel their dogs . They wanted to be relaxed, meanwhile I was on edge just waiting for one of the dogs to come through the farm fence, which happened one time.
Does not matter where you live you have to keep your dog safe and you owe it to keep neighbours and public safe also.

Back in the day when I was out there competitive I heard of some hormone based pill to give to bitches to regulate their cycles. You could prevent a cycle enabling you to trial / show , and or you could regulate the cycle so that the pups were born in a better , nicer , or even less pup-available time . You had the supply when the demand was there . Does this still exist?


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer

Dr. Hutchison talked of some drops that people used to use. Kept the womb nice, so that you could finish your bitch's show career, and breed her when she was four or five, and her womb would be young -- like a 2 year old's. I cannot remember the name, pearl drops maybe. Not sure. I do not know if they prevented the dog from coming into heat, but that would make sense as the progesterone would not attack the uterine horns every six months.

I am kind of nutty about screwing with nature though. Well preventing a bitch from getting pregnant by keeping her separated is screwing with nature. Still, I did hear there were meds that you could use to bring her into heat. That I would be fearful of using, also anything that prevents heat cycles. 

But I have heard that people did use them with success. Not sure if they are still available though.


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## Xeph

Are y'all talking about cheque drops?


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## selzer

Probably. I knew I could not remember the name. But that kind of rings a bell.


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## Dainerra

I think the difference between Lauri and the others who come here and say "OOPS" is pretty different.
Lauri is a known breeder. She tests her dogs, titles her dogs and works hard to insure healthy litters. The male was out of one of her breedings, so has good strong healthy lines. The dog is not a resident of the house so he wouldn't be part of the normal rotation when keeping track of dogs. 

The average person who comes here is another matter entirely. OOOPS. I have 3 dogs and they are all intact. I knew she was in heat, but I didn't think she'd actually "DO IT" with her own son *shocked gasp* The owner doesn't know anything about the lines, the health history of the dogs, no testing has ever been done. 

See the difference?


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> I do not EVER again want to be in a position where I simply do not know where my dog is, whether she is starving, whether she is freezing, whether she is stuck in some trappers trap, whether she has been hit by a car, whether she has been shot for running deer, whether she might bite someone trying to help her, whether she is terrified, whether some slimeball has ducktaped her mouth shut and turned her lose with his aggressive dogs, or cut her paws off and is letting her bleed to death -- THAT is why I have Fort Knox. It is because I cannot handle a missing dog.


A 6-foot perimeter fence will keep my animals in my property and keep people out. Therefore, we don't have to worry about where our dogs are. So far I have not owned a digger/fence jumper/climber or other escape artist, but if I did, I'd certainly keep them in Fort Knox. As it is, just with my 6 foot perimeter/privacy fence, the neighbors call my place "Freestep Fortress".  We live in a pretty quiet ag community and my neighbors are all good people; if I lived in a different neighborhood I might worry more.

Now, when I board client dogs, they are under lock and key at all times. Since I don't always know the extent of their desire and ability to be escape artists, I don't take chances. I have the double-fenced Fort Knox kennel zone setup for them.

My own dogs, I know and trust, so they get a modicum of freedom within the confines of our property. Yes, I like the idea that I can let them out to frolic and play while I sit at the computer. Right now, the GSDs are running loose outside (in a fenced area within a fenced area). 

Still, when Vinca comes into heat, :crazy: I will be paranoid enough to keep her under 24/7 mother hen watch; she'll be lucky to go outside for a game of ball.


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## Lilie

Dainerra said:


> I think the difference between Lauri and the others who come here and say "OOPS" is pretty different.
> Lauri is a known breeder. She tests her dogs, titles her dogs and works hard to insure healthy litters. The male was out of one of her breedings, so has good strong healthy lines. The dog is not a resident of the house so he wouldn't be part of the normal rotation when keeping track of dogs.
> 
> The average person who comes here is another matter entirely. OOOPS. I have 3 dogs and they are all intact. I knew she was in heat, but I didn't think she'd actually "DO IT" with her own son *shocked gasp* The owner doesn't know anything about the lines, the health history of the dogs, no testing has ever been done.
> 
> See the difference?



Awe Man! I was going to say that.....read through all this stuff just to make sure nobody else did....drat....

Great Point! How very brilliant!


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## Dainerra

Lilie said:


> Awe Man! I was going to say that.....read through all this stuff just to make sure nobody else did....drat....
> 
> Great Point! How very brilliant!


cool! do I win a prize?

Just today I found out there is a female in heat across the road. She wanders loose, but they were actually going to bring her over to play with the boys..... 
NOTE TO SELF: close up the doggie door!!!


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## Jack's Dad

Dainerra said:


> I think the difference between Lauri and the others who come here and say "OOPS" is pretty different.
> Lauri is a known breeder. She tests her dogs, titles her dogs and works hard to insure healthy litters. The male was out of one of her breedings, so has good strong healthy lines. The dog is not a resident of the house so he wouldn't be part of the normal rotation when keeping track of dogs.
> 
> The average person who comes here is another matter entirely. OOOPS. I have 3 dogs and they are all intact. I knew she was in heat, but I didn't think she'd actually "DO IT" with her own son *shocked gasp* The owner doesn't know anything about the lines, the health history of the dogs, no testing has ever been done.
> 
> See the difference?


I don't really get your post. Lauri said she made a mistake. So, we all make mistakes.

The issue I have with what you said is that I don't believe there are too many people who fit the scenario you laid out for the (average person). Why would an average person waste their time going on a forum to tell the world that they do no testing, there is no health history, and they don't know anything about their dogs lines.
I have seen people come on and in ignorance ask questions about breeding. They are trashed immediately, and often, and nothing is gained or learned. 
In the real world away from the forums people breed dogs with little or no regard for the issues brought up here. My wife knew a women whose young Lab (less than a Yr.) mated with an unknown male and had nine pups. My wife talked to her about spaying repeatedly. About 8 months or so later the dog is pregnant again and the lady doesn't know why. I told my wife to ask if she kept any pups. You guessed it she kept a male from the first litter. 12 pups this time. Is the dog spayed now? No.

If that's the average person you are referring to most of them will not be on forums.


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## Dainerra

The people come here to say "hey, I think my dog is pregnant" They are asked questions and the answers come out.

As for them being on the forums, it depends. lots of people get on the internet to research things.


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## Cassidy's Mom

People like that show up here all the time. They may not stick around for long, but yeah - we get those people.


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## Jack's Dad

Oh good. Someone shows up to keep me on track again.


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## Dainerra

actually, here we usually get situations like Selzer mentioned. Someone shows up looking for a stud for their bitch. People here ask the "Questions" Nope, no health testing, no titles, no work, no job, sometimes not even AKC registered or is a rescue dog, but "she's an awesome pet" They don't like being told that maybe she isn't breed-worthy and storm off in a huff. A few days later they reappear saying "It doesn't matter. I put her in the yard to potty while I took a shower. When I got out, the neighbor's dog had got to her. Won't they have such gorgeous puppies though????"


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## RubyTuesday

> Oops litters are a problem. They are a problem because people have it in their heads that breeding dogs is for some reason unacceptable. And they have it in their heads that if it was an accidental pairing, then that is somehow ok. But way too many of the "accidents" are actually on purpose. And when people blame the almighty OOPS to get a get out of jail free car, they increase people's opinion that dogs cannot be maintained intact without unintentional breedings, and people try to pass stupid laws concerning spay and neuter. So it is a problem when people say whoops, don't hate me. It is every bit as bad as people letting their GSD go around biting people. It actually hurts those of us who do not believe in unnecessary surgeries, because of health concerns. Just like people allowing their dogs to bite people gets us all in trouble with insurance companies and breed specific laws.
> 
> I just don't buy it. I believe that most of the incidents of oopses are people who wanted their dog to have puppies, or did not care if their dog did, but as the day draws nearer, they suddenly realize they need information. If someone comes on the site saying, I bred my dog to my bitch and expect puppies on this date, I have some questions -- they will be lambasted. But at least THEY are taking responsibility for breeding their dogs.
> 
> Someone comes one and says Fluffy got Morgan when we left them lose together while we were out having a dip in the hot tub, and everyone is supposed to throw flowers and welcome them to the board because they are human, and it is so very difficult to keep dog and bitch separated.
> 
> It is NOT hard to manage intact bitches. Laurie would agree to that. And all these oopses give a real false impression which encourages people to mutilate their dogs, causing all kinds of problems down the road for them because they are AFRAID to keep a female intact. I find that incredibly sad.


WoW, Selzer! Assumptions, speculations & accusations capped with the mind boggling statement that "_It is NOT hard to manage intact bitches. Laurie would agree to that._ Apparently it's hard enough that her security system/precautions failed. Again, I hope that in the future others with oops litters are treated with the same compassion & understanding.

Concerns vary. IMO a parent/child breeding is a truly bad idea. I'm not convinced that continuing a pregnancy which results from such a breeding is advisable. Such close in breeding bothers me more than many of the random breedings I've seen. This isn't a slam on Laurie. From what I've seen she's an admirable person, & a good breeder, but in this instance we disagree.


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## selzer

I feel that the breeding will probably turn out a decent litter of puppies, and chances are it may also provide good information as well. I would not terminate the litter. The puppies are not going to come out with two heads or horns. People act as if this has never been done before, and on purpose. Laurie knows her lines, if she has a reason to believe it is a bad idea for this litter to be born at all, she would probably take the proper steps. 

It is NOT that hard to manage intact bitches, not enough to spay all bitches for fear of it. That would be like putting down every dog-reactive dog because someone might have a lapse of conscienceness and another dog gets hurt. They are NOT that hard to manage -- reactive dogs (a whole lot easier than changing the behavior, or solving the problem) but it is not a reason to kill them all. Nor is a couple of actual oops litters a reason to spay or neuter the entire dogdom.


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## Betty

selzer said:


> It is NOT that hard to manage intact bitches, not enough to spay all bitches for fear of it. That would be like putting down every dog-reactive dog because someone might have a lapse of conscienceness and another dog gets hurt. They are NOT that hard to manage -- reactive dogs (a whole lot easier than changing the behavior, or solving the problem) but it is not a reason to kill them all. Nor is a couple of actual oops litters a reason to spay or neuter the entire dogdom.


I don't think any one on this board has ever suggested that all girls be spayed? 

For the vast majority of people it IS easier for them to have a spayed or neutered animal. Their pets live in the house and heat cycles can be messy. 

They enjoy the freedom of not having to worry about an accidental breeding. 

You are a breeder Sue, you life revolves around reproductive events such as heat cycles. You have kennels. What is "not hard" for you to manage is a whole lot different from someone who perhaps just does not see any plus in dealing with it, whose dog lives in the house, maybe with another dog, maybe with a kid or two.


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## lhczth

Keeping intact females really isn't that big of a deal. I have done it since 1985. I don't use kennels, do use crates, they are house dogs and I didn't have my first litter until 2003. I do eventually spay my females because pyometritis does worry me. Some girls stink and are pretty messy. I had one that wouldn't wear the little pants so she was crated. The rest have been super easy. 

I now have a male. I have a safe room where he isn't allowed. I do use crates. When I leave he is either outside in a kennel (I do have one, I just don't use it much) or he goes with me (or the girl does). I have a pretty set routine when girls are in heat, but I have a routine when they aren't also since I have girls that HATE each other.


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## selzer

Girls hating each other is MUCH harder than keeping them intact without breeding them.


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## Lauri & The Gang

I haven't been ignoring all the reponses - I've been busy with work and life (Dog Day at the WI State Fair). I will be going through everything and posting replies today.


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## Lauri & The Gang

GSDElsa said:


> Do you not see a 1-2 inbreed as a serious health concern if the dogs somehow ended up breeding down the road? No mater what those are not genetics that should be passed on. I would not think you would want to takd the risk.


It all depends on what comes of the breeding.

An in-breeding can produce a puppy that has all the BEST of both parents. If that 'best' is really good then yes, that puppy SHOULD be used for breeding down the line.

If that 'best' isn't all that good to begin with then no, it should not be used for breeding.

An in-breeding can also produce a puppy that has all the WORST of both parents. Any of those puppies should not be allowed to be bred.


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## Lauri & The Gang

BowWowMeow said:


> Ok, I'll offer another opinion on this situation. Why is ok for Lauri to have an oops litter between relatives when it's not ok for other people that aren't popular or known people on this forum? And why does saying you made a mistake make you a better person/breeder than others who also choose to have the litter?


I believe it has more to do with people here knowing that I NORMALLY am a very careful and responsible breeder.

If someone came on the board and said that they had been breeding dogs for 20+ years, had worked their dogs, done all the health clearances and so on and then said they had an accidental litter - I doubt most people would attack them.

But most people that come on the board and announce their oops litter have no clue about breeding.



> And why not check into that safer alternative for an early abortion?


I did some Googling and personally do not consider any of the "early abortion" choices to be 'safe'.



> It's fine to say you don't believe in speutering but that means you can't make mistakes that end up with a dog unintentionally pregnant.


It means I'm not perfect and I have to deal with my mistake. I'm not going to subject my dog to unnecessary surgery just to make my life easier.

But I will be going about this litter just like I would with any PLANNED litter. The same upbringing (Superdog, socialization, early training, etc), same potential owner screening (I have a couple people on a waiting list and have turned several people to rescue instead), same follow up and same contract (dog comes back to me at ANY point in their lives for ANY reason).


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## Lauri & The Gang

spiritsmom said:


> Kinda funny that if a new member had posted this about their dogs, they would have been driven out of here so fast with nasty posts about how awful they are and that they should immediately abort the dog and so on and so forth. A longtime member posts this and it's all okay?


The main difference is not that I'm a long time member here. It's that I have always been upfront with my breeding practices and people on here KNOW about my breeding practices.

If a new member came on and told us all about their dogs, their tests, their titles, etc. and then said they had an accidental breeding we most likely would NOT attack them.

It's the people that come on here and say "my bitch got herself pregnant" or "I think my bitch might be pregnant" or any of those things - that's when people tend to get angry with their postings.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Betty said:


> Any time you have intact dogs there is a risk of an accidental breeding. The more you try and have them live as more of a member of the family and not in a kennel set up like Fort Knox the higher the risk.
> 
> I choose to rotate my dogs in the house so that a kennel is not all they know. I choose to let my kenneled dogs out in the yard with me when it's their turn in the kennel. Because of my choices I am at a higher risk for an accidental breeding then someone that does not. I can live with that, in my mind the benefits far out weigh the risk.


Betty - you hit the nail on the head. My dogs are ALL house dogs so I do run a higher risk (obviously) of having an accident. As you said, it's a risk that I live with and the overall benefits outweigh the risks.



Betty said:


> IMO the accidental breeding does not make her irresponsible, and her on line confession does not make her responsible.


Well said and I completely agree. I didn't post this here to make myself seem responsible. I simply posted it to let people know the risks of having intact bitches and what a responsible breed would do.


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## cliffson1

Accidents happen, and often people come to the internet to help themselves with something that they have little knowledge of. There are people here who are rude and impose THEIR values on this situation (by speculating, questioning their motives, and being intolerable), but this board has improved dramatically in this area toward educating instead of berating. You try to give the best advice possible for the person or persons, that they can benefit from, in regard to their situation. Sometimes its necessary to acquire more information to help them. As Capt. McCall once said, I will not tolerate "rudeness"...lol.
Nobody should judge the board by one or two people who cannot keep their emotions or rudeness in check.....there are many helpful people on this board.
Now there is a difference in a person who has an accident and looks for help, and the ones that have an accident and and give the impression they are not interested in learning! The latter may have earned some rudeness, the former hasn't and shouldn't be subjected to it, IMO.


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## vomlittlehaus

Well said Cliff!!


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## Lauri & The Gang

cliffson1 said:


> Now there is a difference in a person who has an accident and looks for help, and the ones that have an accident and and give the impression they are not interested in learning! The latter may have earned some rudeness, the former hasn't and shouldn't be subjected to it, IMO.


Also, for those of us that have been on the board for a loooong time and have seen HUNDREDS of those types of posts, it’s sometimes hard to be civil to the person that jumps on the board and posts PROUDLY about their oops litters or their pregnant female that they bred with the guy down the street’s dog.

We TRY but some days it’s just hard to be polite!


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## selzer

Yeah, almost two months ago my friend who owns an awesome imported German show line dog, got together with me and I brought along Odessa even though she was in heat -- didn't want her to miss out on any fun to be had, and well, while we were sitting right there watching them, talking ya know, he managed to tie with her. Well, it happened a couple more times while we were visiting later in the week. I dunno, she's gained a bit of weight and I think she might be pregnant. Besides making sure the camera has room on the diskette, is there anything else I need to be worrying about?


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## Dainerra

I had to re-read that. rofl I read "diskette in the camera" and thought you were going to say that you got footage of the conception


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## onyx'girl

She probably did, thats why the oops was allowed to occur...too busy taking pics of the awesome imports and not recognizing how close they were!


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## selzer

LOL! Yeah, but I would never post those picture on the internet. Oopses are supposedly a step up from BYBs, but no one is lower than puppy-pornographers. LOL!


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## Dainerra

wasn't there a craigs list ad or something that was posted on this forum once where the breeder proudly declared they had photo proof of who the sire was?


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> LOL! Yeah, but I would never post those picture on the internet. Oopses are supposedly a step up from BYBs, but no one is lower than puppy-pornographers. LOL!


It seems to be a thing with the Pit Bull people... posting photos of the sire & dam tied.  I guess you're not supposed to take their word for it...


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## onyx'girl

I see it on FB alot, too....different breeders putting up private moments of their breedings. TMI


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## selzer

Uhg! Like a photo is proof of anything. If you need a photo, I need DNA.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Lauri & The Gang said:


> So, I'm HOPING that she doesn't get pregnant. I'm hoping that it was too early in her cycle (it's close though) and I'm hoping that since it was Clark's "first time" he didn't have much in the way of sperm count.


So much for hoping. :shocked:

I am about 90% sure she IS pregnant. She would be about 5 weeks along right now - another 4 to go.

Puppies will go with limited registration and on a spay/neuter contract for after they are 2 years old - unless I personally know them and then it will be on a case by case basis.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> It seems to be a thing with the Pit Bull people... posting photos of the sire & dam tied.  I guess you're not supposed to take their word for it...


And then about 4mos. later, dangling the puppies by their scruffs and photographing them all that way?


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## chelle

I'm still waaay back on the part about the "broken" penis? Wow, really? That could have useful implications for humans if we were made that way.  I mean, does it snap off or what?


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## dazedtrucker

chelle said:


> I'm still waaay back on the part about the "broken" penis? Wow, really? That could have useful implications for humans if we were made that way.  I mean, does it snap off or what?


I've read 5 pages back now, and still can't find what you are talkin about? I'm sorry. Snap off penis got my interest...LOL!


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## Dainerra

I know that dogs and cattle and some other animals have bones in the penis and it is possible for that bone to get broken. My grandparents had a bull once that broke his penis, they had him put down.


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> And then about 4mos. later, dangling the puppies by their scruffs and photographing them all that way?


My favorite BYB tactic is to photograph the puppies next a soda can, to show scale.


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## Lauri & The Gang

dazedtrucker said:


> I've read 5 pages back now, and still can't find what you are talkin about? I'm sorry. Snap off penis got my interest...LOL!


Here's what she is referring to ...



Lauri & The Gang said:


> ...Forcing dogs apart after they have tied can actually break the males penis.
> 
> Dogs don't HAVE to tie to pass the sperm to the female. There are what is called 'outside' ties. The male's penis has bulbs on the side. When he penetrates the female the bulbs enlarge and keep the penis 'locked' inside the female - aka tied.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Driving an hour north to get some fresh goats milk for the puppies!! 

I use this in the weaning to raw process. The pups usually LOVE this stuff!!


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