# Finding a Responsible Breeder (Virginia)



## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

I'm looking for suggestions on a responsible breeder in the Fredericksburg, Virginia area. (22553) We're willing to drive a reasonable distance for a reputable breeder, but closer is generally better since most breeders offer advice and help for the lifetime of the puppy.

For those interested I've described the situation that occurred when we picked out our last GSD puppy below. I want to know where I went wrong originally. I made sure the breeder had:

- Excellent facilities.
- Excellent testimonies.
- All dogs health certified for genetics and hips.
- Good pedigree.

How important is personality testing when it comes to a GSD puppy and matching it to an owner? I'm beginning to think this was my major mistake. 

While the puppies got moderate socialization with the breeder, I believe there was definite room for improvement here as well. Perhaps this is why she was so shy/timid.

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We purchased a GSD a little over a year ago from a breeder in our area. Using the wealth of information available on this website we ensured that the breeder had pedigrees available, valid and up to date health certifications, a nice facility, etc.

Fast forward to roughly a month ago where we had to relinquish the dog back to the breeder. She's now in a training program to become a narcotics dog and is doing well. But it was still extremely difficult to let her go as I'm sure any GSD owner can attest to. You become extremely attached...as if they were your own flesh and blood. 

I'm essentially trying to figure out where I went wrong in my decision making process. The prey drive and work ethic of the dog we received was the highest that several trainers we took her to had seen. Despite exercising her constantly (mentally and physically) on a daily basis her energy was limitless. She was displaying aggression towards our other dogs and had a very uneven temperament as well.

She was the most loving dog I've ever had when it comes to what she considered her "human pack" but extremely timid/shy/fearful of anyone else. Socialization definitely wasn't the issue either. We did so from the time we received her at just over 8 weeks until the day we relinquished her to the breeder. We attended puppy classes and even intermediate obedience classes to get her use to strange dogs and people with no effect.

Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know your area well, but johnsonhaus (a member of this board) is MD, and Blackthorne also a member, is I believe in your area..Both breeders I wouldn't say 'no' to a dog from


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

What lines are you interested in? Classes are great, but really GSD's need more to do than just do obedience classes.
Did you read the sticky http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html
I think these links help explain what good breeders do with the pups and how to evaluate them for proper matches with new owners:
BioSensor Article (this program has many different links if you google biosensor superdog program)
How the breeder may evaluate puppies:
Elem. of Temperament
and a link to what the breeder I got my pup from puppy raising program description(which is excellent IMO):
(Wildhaus Kennels Raising Working German Shepherd Puppies)


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## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

Diane: I appreciate your suggestions!

Jane: I'll definitely give the links you suggested a good read. I believe I've read most of them but a refresher never hurt. 

The obedience classes were just the tip of the iceberg to help her with socialization. (She had already mastered all of the commands) I took her for walks regularly, played ball with her and she particularly enjoyed playing find it. We have a rather large yard (2 acres) enclosed by a six foot fence so I would put her in the house and hide her favorite toy anywhere in the yard. She would find it rather quickly. I imagine this is why shes doing so well in her narcotic training program. Her sense of smell was pretty incredible.

I'm well aware that GSD's aren't a breed of dog you can simply play with for ten minutes and expect them to be exhausted. My main concern with her was her dog aggression (with our other dogs) and the fact that her shyness/timidness was beginning to translate to aggression with strangers.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Her genetics could have played into it certainly. What is her pedigree? Many dogs carry suspicion and while immature they don't know how to deal with it, so they need to look to the handler for confirmation and know the handler has things under control...then they gain confidence knowing that.

If a young dog has to feel the need to be "in control" they may feel overwhelmed because they aren't mature enough to deal with it. 
And many times you see this ramping up at about a year old...they no longer look like a puppy, but in their brain they still are. So we have to build confidence from the get-go and continue with it. 

Thats why when training in SchH or other protection type sports, corrections are limited and the puppies are redirected instead of corrected. You can always squash a pups confidence level, bringing it back up is a huge challenge.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Your girl sounds identical to mine and I'm in your area...wonder if we went through the same breeder,lol Zoe is 16 months, extremely smart and drivey, hard to tire out, has an incredible nose, and depite proper socialization and classes is aggressive with people. The only difference is she is awesome with other dogs and even cats Both breeders mentioned are breeders I would pesonally go through so they are a good start for sure!! Good luck on your search


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

As far as breeders go, research the lines you like, visit some GSD clubs and they may have suggestions for breeders, I really wouldn't limit your search to your location. 
Many great breeders are within a day's drive or will ship responsibly. The breeders posted above are working lines, and my personal favorite line...the pups in a litter can be a spectrum of drives and personalities usually. You just need to let the breeder know what you want for a good match.


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## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Her genetics could have played into it certainly. What is her pedigree? Many dogs carry suspicion and while immature they don't know how to deal with it, so they need to look to the handler for confirmation and know the handler has things under control...then they gain confidence knowing that.
> 
> If a young dog has to feel the need to be "in control" they may feel overwhelmed because they aren't mature enough to deal with it.
> And many times you see this ramping up at about a year old...they no longer look like a puppy, but in their brain they still are. So we have to build confidence from the get-go and continue with it.
> ...


I believe genetics is where we went wrong. We weren't aware until after we had Sasha for nearly a year. The breeder informed us that they sold the sire to a trainer for SchH work and that the dog had exhibited aggression issues. They essentially bred a show line to a working line. Hence why I'm seeking a different breeder. We relinquished Sasha to the breeder at 1 year 8 months. I have no doubt that many on this board are more skilled than I with GSD's. But as I mentioned in my original post we took her to reputable GSD trainers in an attempt to curb her aggression and shyness with no results. I certainly welcome any suggested reading.

Sire: Yano Von Benedict - German shepherd dog

Dam: Sara Von Green - German shepherd dog

I really appreciate everyone's help! I don't plan on getting another GSD for several months but want to start researching early.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The sire posted has the same Great grandfather my male has. Here is a link to a thread, with a little back info on the line(not saying this has anything to do with your situation, but thought you may be interested in reading it/posts #21 and 45:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tection-drives-west-german-working-lines.html


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## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> The sire posted has the same Great grandfather my male has. Here is a link to a thread, with a little back info on the line(not saying this has anything to do with your situation, but thought you may be interested in reading it/posts #21 and 45:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tection-drives-west-german-working-lines.html


What's your opinion on the particular pairing above though? Am I correct in the thought that mixing working and show lines is generally a bad idea?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think I am qualified to answer that....there are a few great members here that could though(the ones posting in the thread I linked above), you could pm them, they may see this thread and chime in however! 
My opinion of mixing lines is unless you really know what you are doing with the genetics, best not to mix show and working, thats were the experienced breeders come in, they know what pedigrees to match to get the best litter possible.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It is possible that you didn't go wrong in your selection of a breeder, you may have just been unlucky and ended up with a fluke, especially if the breeder does have a great track record in producing balanced dogs, and placing the right puppy in the right family.

Like Jane, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on pedigrees, but one thing that I saw on the sire is that he is line-bred 3-3 on Pike (I have a littermate to Jane's dog, Karlo, with Pike in the pedigree). My dog is very stable and gets along superbly with my slightly nuts, unsocialized, dominant rescue, so just goes to show that breeding is very needed to be left to the very experienced that can take the hard elements and balance them out. 

Did the breeder pick the pup for you based on your description of what you wanted? It is possible that the breeder is not as skilled as others in evaluating or picking the right puppy, or that the puppy started out just being an average pup, with average drives, and later as he matured developed in a different direction than expected. 

I also have heard from many knowledgeable sources that dog aggression is genetic, so if you are concerned about your new pup getting along with you existing dog, make sure that you are satisfied that both parents are naturally dog-social and non dog-aggressive. 

I sympathize, I have made the choice in the past to return a pup to the breeder after having had him for a year - it was, and still is, very hard, but was grateful to the breeder for being responsible and ethical and accepting long-term responsibility for the dog.


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## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

Lucia: Unfortunately after seeing the aggression in Sasha I began to do some research. All of her litter-mates exhibited aggression issues and the breeder let us pick the puppy. (This in itself should have been a red flag...)

I have since learned that even other litters they have had exhibited aggression issues. The breeders are very good people. I just believe that as others have said breeding is a very fine art that takes a LOT of knowledge and experience to get right.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That's too bad, makes me sad when people don't really know what they are doing and are responsible for bringing so many unstable, aggressive dogs into the world. 

I would second Diane's (JakodaCD's) recommendations above - no personal experience withthe mentioned breeders, but active members on this board that have a lot of people's respect, including mine.


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## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

I sent Blackthorne an email and am awaiting a response. I appreciate all the help/advice given.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

You may want to contact vom Silbersee in VA as well as a show line raised in a family environment may suit you better..........

the two dogs you posted above are working lines.....I had some dealings with the breeder of the sire several years ago - she is a commercial operation out in Arizona, and had rotating kennel doors - dogs would have a few litters and be gone and replaced, specializing in blacks...the dam is working lines, and her dam is several generations from titled dogs, probably very few tested for anything temperament - I actually was surprised when I went to 5 genrations that the dam was WGR working lines because the names of the dogs were not indictative of a breeder following any type of SV style program. And that type of breeding (lack of) testing criteria is where the temperament problems start from!

Lee


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

It looks like the sire is workling line and the dam is 1/2 working, 1/2 showline (both German and American from what I see?). 

There are definitely cases where pairing showlines and working lines can work, but it does take someone knowing what they are doing. A WGSL breeder I know in NH just did a breeding with her female and a working line dog. Obviously no idea how the puppies are going to turn out at this point, but she does both SchH and SAR with her dogs and I've seen 2 full showline dogs of hers work extensively. I would definitely say that both of those dogs have a lot more working drive than what is generally thought of as being common in showline dogs. So I'll definitely be curious to see the pups in a couple years.

I hope that someone like Cliff or Chris see this thread and comment. I'd be ver curious about the linebreeding on Pike. I BELIEVE (?) that 3-3 is the closest linebreeding that the SV allows....so 3-3 on a dog (per the thread that Jane linked) can cause some rather, um, nutty dogs....and throw in some American and West German Show Lines in on the dams side? Hmmmmmmmmm.


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## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> It looks like the sire is workling line and the dam is 1/2 working, 1/2 showline (both German and American from what I see?).
> 
> There are definitely cases where pairing showlines and working lines can work, but it does take someone knowing what they are doing. A WGSL breeder I know in NH just did a breeding with her female and a working line dog. Obviously no idea how the puppies are going to turn out at this point, but she does both SchH and SAR with her dogs and I've seen 2 full showline dogs of hers work extensively. I would definitely say that both of those dogs have a lot more working drive than what is generally thought of as being common in showline dogs. So I'll definitely be curious to see the pups in a couple years.
> 
> I hope that someone like Cliff or Chris see this thread and comment. I'd be ver curious about the linebreeding on Pike. I BELIEVE (?) that 3-3 is the closest linebreeding that the SV allows....so 3-3 on a dog (per the thread that Jane linked) can cause some rather, um, nutty dogs....and throw in some American and West German Show Lines in on the dams side? Hmmmmmmmmm.


I'd be interested to see their comments as well. Anyone have thoughts on working lines vs. show lines when your looking for a family pet? From what I understand both can produce puppies with a good temperament and a medium drive. I was just curious if one was superior to the other. Perhaps I'm just paranoid now based on my first experience with the breed. Just curious what the advantages/disadvantages would be for working vs. showlines. (Anyone have an informative link that they know is accurate?)


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Hackez said:


> I'd be interested to see their comments as well. Anyone have thoughts on working lines vs. show lines when your looking for a family pet? From what I understand both can produce puppies with a good temperament and a medium drive. I was just curious if one was superior to the other. Perhaps I'm just paranoid now based on my first experience with the breed. Just curious what the advantages/disadvantages would be for working vs. showlines. (Anyone have an informative link that they know is accurate?)


Oh boy do people have opinions! Can o' worms :crazy:

This topic has been discussed a million times. I don't know any of the threads by heart, but get that search feature crackin' and you'll find plenty. 

I'm a working line girl myself.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I'm a working line girl myself.


As am I...the best thing you can do is go to clubs nearby that are GSD oriented and see for yourself the dogs. Then look at breeders of the lines you are attracted to.
If you just look at websites of breeders you won't see in person the actual movement or work ethic of the particular lines. There will be upcoming trials/shows to visit as well. Don't be in a rush.
http://www.gsdca-wda.org/wda_new/clubs_reg2.html this site is more the SL
https://sites.google.com/a/usanortheastregion.com/usa-northeast-region/ and this the WL


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Everyone has said everything else, but I wanted to add this:

When looking for a breeder, make sure you find a breeder you feel comfortable with. Ask what kind of dogs they produce. Do their pups have a lot of energy? Have they ever produced pups that ended up with agression and biting problems? Go as deep as you can.

I think you're doing well, but then again I've never bought from a real reputable breeder. I've talked to and wanted to buy, but never went through with it.

Good luck in your search!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I wonder why someone would train 'timid/shy/fearful' dog to become a sniffer dog. Did the breeder told you that? It's just sounds along the same lines as stories about dogs rehomed to a farm to dance and prance with other dogs.

Or the dog was just fine and it was just an unfortunate mismatch which happens.


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## Hackez (Oct 28, 2009)

GSD07 said:


> I wonder why someone would train 'timid/shy/fearful' dog to become a sniffer dog. Did the breeder told you that? It's just sounds along the same lines as stories about dogs rehomed to a farm to dance and prance with other dogs.
> 
> Or the dog was just fine and it was just an unfortunate mismatch which happens.


They said she was an ideal candidate given her drive and sense of smell.


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