# Pet lines?



## houckster6 (Sep 24, 2011)

At what point does a line become strictly a "pet line"? For example, if a dog's sire and dam have not been titled in conformation, but comes from lines that have been titled, would that be considered a pet line because parents haven't worked or shown (officially)?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me a "pet line" is when you look at the pedigree and don't see any recognizable purpose-bred dogs/kennels for 3-4 generations. Then when you go back 3-4 gens you might start seeing recognizable dogs and kennels but the combination is often a mish-mash, no clear direction or indication of what the breeder was trying to accomplish. I wouldn't say a dog from untitled parents is necessarily a pet line.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I agree with Lies's definition, and would add that IMO any dog that can definably be traced to a puppy mill could probably be defined as "pet lines."


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Along with the mishmash pedigree~BYB pups that have no papered pedigree=pet lines
Onyx is from said lineage(even though parents supposedly had papers, never were seen by me!)
Her sister is being bred... without papers/health testing, the "breeder" is putting CKC papers on the litters. UGH!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Pet lines are those that are bred primarily for the pet market. Not all of these people are breeding untitled dogs, dogs with no health clearances, using the pet registries nor are bad people. Their goals are to produce low drive couch potatoes for john Q public. Many are conscientious people breeding pretty big headed black sable dogs, pretty plushy black/red dogs, big old fashioned GSD..........


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

lhczth said:


> Pet lines are those that are bred primarily for the pet market. Not all of these people are breeding untitled dogs, dogs with no health clearances, using the pet registries nor are bad people. Their goals are to produce low drive couch potatoes for john Q public. Many are conscientious people breeding pretty big headed black sable dogs, pretty plushy black/red dogs, big old fashioned GSD..........


And there are those breeding "pretty big headed black sable dogs" that AREN'T low drive, and that are selling them to John Q Public, who then has problems because they can't deal with the dog when it isn't a couch potato and it has ZERO "biddability"(sp).


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BlackGSD said:


> And there are those breeding "pretty big headed black sable dogs" that AREN'T low drive, and that are selling them to John Q Public, who then has problems because they can't deal with the dog when it isn't a couch potato and it has ZERO "biddability"(sp).


Which is why more and more of them are showing up in shelters.  

I think a pet breeder is someone breeding primarily for the pet market. I think pet *lines* are pretty much what Lies and Wildo said.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Just an aside, but some petstores get puppies from titled, imported parents.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Emoore said:


> Which is why more and more of them are showing up in shelters.
> .


Yep, And being rehomed thru rescues. I know someone that got a really nice dark sable Czech female that was rehomed from the owner with the help of a rescue. Nice dog that was just to much for the pet home that got her as a puppy.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

gagsd said:


> Just an aside, but some petstores get puppies from titled, imported parents.


And there are ads in the newspaper for them too. And cheap. Often they are GSL dogs but not always.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Probably, half the dogs I see as Police service dogs would meet many of the definitions here as pet dogs. These dogs are successful at real work....I wonder how the Capt. would feel about these dogs????


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How are the Police Service dogs that you see brokered?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Following up to what Cliff said, if you have a dog from a mishmash of lines, nondescript parentage, but that dog is a great working dog with fabulous nerves and temperament, normal elbows and excellent hips. . . . .what would you think about breeding that dog?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

lhczth said:


> Pet lines are those that are bred primarily for the pet market. Not all of these people are breeding untitled dogs, dogs with no health clearances, using the pet registries nor are bad people. Their goals are to produce low drive couch potatoes for john Q public. Many are conscientious people breeding pretty big headed black sable dogs, pretty plushy black/red dogs, big old fashioned GSD..........


I'd say this was "breeding for pets"--not "pet lines".

I think the description of dogs who have no "purpose bred" dogs in the first 3-4 generations is a good description of what I'd call "backyard lines" or "pet lines."

That doesn't mean that the dog isn't a good dog who can work or be beautiful, just that their parents and grandparents weren't bred together with a whole lot of of knowledge of the ancestry or intention to purposely produce anything other than a puppy.

To me, someone breeding from good parents for the purpose of producing beautiful companions is not "pet lines"--it's using show lines or DDR lines or whatever with knowledge and intention to create a particular result--in other words, the breeding had a purpose.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Molly is an example of a "Pet line" GSD.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I would take a pup bred with no purpose in mind over a pup bred for the wrong reasons any day of the week.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Emoore said:


> I think a pet breeder is someone breeding primarily for the pet market. I think pet *lines* are pretty much what Lies and Wildo said.



Yeah I'm not sure if this is what you mean but I see a difference in breeding for pets and breeding pet lines. Lots of breeders breed awesome pets from healthy, titled parents. To me a "pet line" is when you look at the pedigree and just scratch your head because the dogs have registered names like "Mr. Scooby" and "Macy May".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So what is more important, the end result for a dog or the process. Is a dog with all health guarantees, from titled parents or conformation champions that won't work a pet????? If breeders that follow these processes that allow them to escape the "red flags" mark, but the dogs are seldom seen in service to man considered "pet breeding"?? Is a quality breeder the way they breed or the end product they produce???? Has the process become more important than the result....for a working dog? Has the German Shepherd reputable breeder become an "elitest" group that is producing more fluff than substance???? 
I'm confused about what constitutes "Pet", and when I read the many definitions, I find the connect with the process and the dogs I see working isn't adding up frequently enough; to believe that "pet" doesn't have some merit to it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I consider all my dogs "pets" since I would have them with me even if we didn't do any of the training we do, they live with me in my house, and are my companions above all else. I think any good GSD should make a fine pet for the right family, that is why I see a difference between breeding "pets" (as in the end result are dogs that make great pets, can be a SchH3 dog or a police dog or a VA dog or none) and breeding "pet lines". To me breeding a "pet" is the end result and breeding a "pet line" refers to a process.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

So now we have specialized to the point that we have 3 distinct lines of German shepherds - "show"; "working", and "pet"? Has anyone talked to Stephanitz about this? I can't find that information in any of his writings ...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me it is not an actual line but more a way of describing a breeding philosophy that has no philosophy other than seemingly pairing together whatever dogs happen to be available.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Liesje said:


> To me it is not an actual line but more a way of describing a breeding philosophy that has no philosophy other than seemingly pairing together whatever dogs happen to be available.


Couldn't the same be said about many well know kennels/breeders substituting "pairing together whatever _titled _dogs that happen to be available."


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I'd also add that every breed that is remotely popular has "pet lines." And nearly every breed that is/was bred for work is now split into working and show. This isn't unique to the GSD breed.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Emoore said:


> And nearly every breed that is/was bred for work is now split into working and show. This isn't unique to the GSD breed.


But that doesn't make it right. It's very wrong and confuses the heck out of the general public.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Whiteshepherds said:


> But that doesn't make it right. It's very wrong and confuses the heck out of the general public.


Oh I definitely agree with you there. Not that the general public is hard to confuse. :crazy:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> Couldn't the same be said about many well know kennels/breeders substituting "pairing together whatever _titled _dogs that happen to be available."


Yep. These days I'd probably have better luck getting a half decent PPD from a totally random pairing of dogs from a breeder who gives a blank stare when you ask about the pedigree than a breeding of titled dogs within a specific type.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I see nobody really wants to touch those questions, I mean how many times have you heard "knowledgable" breeders on here spout off some nonsense they heard somewhere as a fact. These same people speak to the unknowing public and appear knowledgable.:shocked:
Was the breed supposed to be bred for "pets" or bred to be functional in service; that happens to make a good pet. Maybe I got this all twisted.....but doesn't stand to reason that what you breed for dictates what you produce?
Pet breeders as I interpret it(from reading these forums), are breeders that breed without going through the process that has become all important in determining if a breeder produces good dogs. There are many American line breeders that have 4/5 generations of untitled dogs and are producing good dogs(Not the show lines, but American lines that didn't fall to the angulation fad), who are labelled "pet breeders". (Maybe there isn't as many as should be but they are out there for sure). 
I personally find the reference to "Pet " breeders just as offensive as "reputable breeders", one because I can't really get a concrete definition for either; two, because show/sport people are making the rules and defining quality, and though I don't have a problem with showing or trialing, breeding just to show or trial is just as big an evil, we were warned to look out for, as oversize, health issues, bad temperament, etc.
Now I didn't start the breed or write the definitive book on the breed....but I certainly can read....and I know when I see things going off track no matter what the new experts say. Just an isolated opinion:laugh:.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Many of the pet line breeders, be it marketed as pet or whatever, will sell pups to whoever has $. 
Some of these dogs they are breeding are of iffy temperament, because the breeder may not be actively training or working their dogs, keep them at home in their own environment and the dog is never stressed or pressured to show its true personality...
Then puppy gets dumped in a shelter when the owner can no longer control it(or is fearful of it).
We see on this site all the time(every day another thread started) about 7-8 month old pup showing aggression. I know there are more dogs that are of good temperament and we don't read about those. 
But many 'pet line' breeders are just breeding to breed. Look on Kiiji/e-bay...never ending supply!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

So breeding "iffy temperament" is "pet breeding"....Wahooo... You know what Onyx, I agree with 100%....I have seen many litters both "Pet' ( by definition) and "Quality",( by definition)...and guess where I have seen the iffy temperament the most????? Bet you can't guess!.....Iffy temperament is a pet breeder....I'm on board, but I think we discriminate when we apply it. I've seen some pretty "Pets" in my life....of course if they have straight angulation with no title they are a pet....but by your definition I have seen many gorgeous pets but we call them reputable:hammer:.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me the distinction is just what is on the pedigree. Doesn't mean one or the other is automatically "reputable" or not or that one is more or less likely to produce "pets" or working quality dogs, at least not for me. I know that the GSDs from my childhood that led me to fall in love with the breed were "pet line" dogs and it does not change the way I feel about them one way or the other. If I walked passed that house and was offered a puppy (as I was in the past) I would still take one. The dogs have a temperament and way of being that I think most of today's "top quality" show lines, working lines, whatever-lines should aspire to emulate. There are many "pet line" dogs and breeders that I would be interested in but I do feel I have to be more discerning because with the pedigrees being less known (at least to me) it requires a lot more observation and interaction with the dogs to make my decision.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I submit that if most people walked past that house that are on this forum they wouldn't take a puppy no matter what the dog will turn out to be. Maybe I am wrong!!! Just go by responses I see on these forums. I'm not trying to be contrary, but I see so many contradictions in what we say and do, and if you bring them up you are bashing or being difficult. But in order for people to be educated they have to "think these things out" to see if they connect....that being theory and reality....or pet vs reputable....because maybe the breed is suffering because of the inconsistencies.....I dunno??


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I submit that you're right and it's kind of a shame, but on the other hand I can see where people are cautious because of the health and temperament problems with the breed. I've had the luxury of knowing the dogs (and three generations of them) for years so I trust the dogs even though the owners/breeders may not know two things about German Shepherd dogs and let one breed with the lab down the road.

I see what you mean about contradictions. How do we reconcile that? On one hand people need to be careful with health and temperament but on the other hand, not get sucked in just based on an OFA certificate and a SchH title...


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

In the beginning, Max decided which dogs were "acceptable" and which ones weren't. His his day, a German shepherd was one dog - pet, show, worker - no distinction between the 3. Today, if a breeder has 8th or 9th generation dams in their kennel and doesn't bother to title or show, then he/she is automatically labeled as a BYB and couldn't possible produce a breed worthy dog. It will be these very unheard of kennels/breeders that will save the breed if we are lucky. Call them what you may, but I'll put my bet on those breeders/kennels that haven't forgotten what the German shepherd is suppose to be - a dog that can work, looks good, and is a loyal family companion all in one.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't know, but to me if you're not _doing_ something with your dogs-- forget titling, just doing something with them-- obedience, agility, SAR, farm/ranch work-- you just have dogs sitting around your house and you breed them, it's very difficult to know what you're breeding. And it's even harder to show your buyers what you're breeding. If I go to someone I don't know from Adam and they have pretty dogs lying on the porch but they can't show me these dogs doing something besides lying on the porch and not biting the grandkids, why on earth should I buy a dog from them? 

I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'd honestly like to know.

I keep hearing on the forums about these wonderful breeders who don't show or compete or title but they know bloodlines and they're going to save the breed. I hear this from people I like and respect and it frustrates me because the only evidence I have that these breeders exist is words on a forum. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around breeding generations of quality dogs based on bloodline alone, not on actually getting out and doing things with your dogs.

Or am I missing something?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Doc, I agree, if I didn't I wouldn't be wasting my time doing all these things with my dogs. Each one I pick based on things I see in the parents that I like (and from breeders that don't require me to jump through a million hoops with my dog - I suppose is one caveat for me). I don't care if they don't have a perfect hip score or they aren't on the podium at trials or their parent was low-V and not VA. If a dog has what I like, I buy it (or get it for free as has been the case). If not, not all the VAs in the world on a pedigree can convince me.


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## houckster6 (Sep 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I don't know, but to me if you're not _doing_ something with your dogs-- forget titling, just doing something with them-- obedience, agility, SAR, farm/ranch work-- you just have dogs sitting around your house and you breed them, it's very difficult to know what you're breeding. And it's even harder to show your buyers what you're breeding. If I go to someone I don't know from Adam and they have pretty dogs lying on the porch but they can't show me these dogs doing something besides lying on the porch and not biting the grandkids, why on earth should I buy a dog from them?
> 
> I'm not trying to be confrontational, I'd honestly like to know.
> 
> ...


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I know I'm a newby at the whole GSD thing but what if the breeder doesn't show/title the dogs they are breeding, but can give you references of pups that have come from their kennel that do service work, obed. SAR, etc. and I'm not just talking about 1 pup but people who have taken pups from their kennel and gone on to do whatever dog sport they wanted to do without a problem. Does this make up for the Breeder not actually showing their dogs at all. Especially if the pups are successful in the sport your interested in as the buyer.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I just think that there is merit in a breeder that has been breeding/improving their lines for multiple generation. The knowledge that the breeder has about the generations of dogs and their offspring in his/her lines is worth more than any titled that may or may not have been honestly earned. JMO

In my opinion, I would rather a breeder study and have first-hand knowledge, or know someone who might have first-hand knowledge, about a bloodline and spent their time breeding/improving the breed. Let someone else show and "work" the offspring and let the breeder objectively observe the physical/genetic make up from a breeders standpoint - not a handler's. JMO. For example, I am already searching for compatible bloodlines for pups that aren't even born yet. And those bloodlines will probably come from some unheard of kennel that has been breeding for many many years.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I can agree with that but I don't necessarily think that breeders who do train and work their own dogs don't spend the necessary amount of time studying the bloodline and pedigrees. The actual title is not that important to me but I want to see the dogs doing what I want mine to be able to do, whether that is the dog belonging to the breeder or the other dogs I guess is not that important to me. If it is the breeder, all the better I guess. I can only speak for myself but a lot of the traits I look for don't have corresponding "titles". Like I don't care if a dog can do a backhandspring, will it load calmly into a crate in the vehicle and remain calm or does it bark incessantly and tear at the crate? That sort of thing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liesje said:


> To me the distinction is just what is on the pedigree. Doesn't mean one or the other is automatically "reputable" or not or that one is more or less likely to produce "pets" or working quality dogs, at least not for me. I know that the GSDs from my childhood that led me to fall in love with the breed were "pet line" dogs and it does not change the way I feel about them one way or the other. If I walked passed that house and was offered a puppy (as I was in the past) I would still take one. The dogs have a temperament and way of being that I think most of today's "top quality" show lines, working lines, whatever-lines should aspire to emulate. There are many "pet line" dogs and breeders that I would be interested in but *I do feel I have to be more discerning because with the pedigrees being less known (at least to me) it requires a lot more observation and interaction with the dogs to make my decision.*


You know the breed, JQP buying the 'pet line' are not as knowledgeable and have no clue about pedigrees...they wouldn't even know what to look for as far as observing/interacting. They just want a GSD companion. Or they hear the word "import" and think they are getting something special if the parents are imported.
Where I live there are many pet breeders and a small handful of responsible ones that know what they are _actually_ breeding.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Franksmom, in reference to Emoore's question you beat me to the punch. If this breeder can repeatedly show you offspring that are successful in work like SAR, service dogs, LE dogs, herding,etc.....what difference does it make if they are not working there dogs. Again we get to what is goal for a breeder, the process or the end result. Why are you breeding???, and can you show that your dogs will be breed representative? Not to say that breeders that work their dogs are a bad thing at all.....just that the dog will pass the genetics. This myth that the only way to tell if a dog can perform is to work them is a crock.....like dogs from good working stock if not worked in three generations will lose their working ability...... I guess it comes down to a good breeder should be able to recognize good working traits and if they can't they shouldn't breed period. Now I do think that all breeders should have worked dogs at some point to understand working traits.....but once knowledgable they can be good breeders if they have good stock even if labelled "Pet " breder. JMO


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> I see nobody really wants to touch those questions, I mean how many times have you heard "knowledgable" breeders on here spout off some nonsense they heard somewhere as a fact. These same people speak to the unknowing public and appear knowledgable.:shocked:
> Was the breed supposed to be bred for "pets" or bred to be functional in service; that happens to make a good pet. Maybe I got this all twisted.....but doesn't stand to reason that what you breed for dictates what you produce?
> Pet breeders as I interpret it(from reading these forums), are breeders that breed without going through the process that has become all important in determining if a breeder produces good dogs. There are many American line breeders that have 4/5 generations of untitled dogs and are producing good dogs(Not the show lines, but American lines that didn't fall to the angulation fad), who are labelled "pet breeders". (Maybe there isn't as many as should be but they are out there for sure).
> I personally find the reference to "Pet " breeders just as offensive as "reputable breeders", one because I can't really get a concrete definition for either; two, because show/sport people are making the rules and defining quality, and though I don't have a problem with showing or trialing, breeding just to show or trial is just as big an evil, we were warned to look out for, as oversize, health issues, bad temperament, etc.
> Now I didn't start the breed or write the definitive book on the breed....but I certainly can read....and I know when I see things going off track no matter what the new experts say. Just an isolated opinion:laugh:.


Where is that LIKE button? Oh-well I guess this :thumbup: will have to do.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I have a 7 month old dog that is already accurately detecting sugar level changes in diabetics and hasn't had any training in that area. She is also exhibiting herding instincts and could probably pass the CGC without much trouble. She is a keeper IMO. I don't really care what awards or titles are behind her - I am interested in her genetic make-up. I'm a breeder, not a show or sport participant.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So how is she showing this behavior if you aren't working her in detection? You are working the pup, even though not in 'sport or show'....otherwise you wouldn't be able to observe the behavior/ natural instincts?
Still running pups thru some testing obviously, which most pet breeders don't consider doing.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

She showed me. We were sitting in a room with visitors and one was a diabetic. he experienced a sugar drop and she alerted the guy. He checked his levels and they were low. He did this in several other situations as well. So I am not running her through staged tests - she expressed her instinct to me. And I am not "working her" in anything. A pup should be a pup. The pups shows me what is inside them as they grow. I encourage the owners to cultivate what is inside them and been expressed when the dogs are older (12 months; 18 months, etc.). I do not think formal training is needed until the pup is older - JMO. And I would never encourage new owners to "force" their dog to do any activity if the dog hasn't shown that trait as a young pup. I'm old school - real old school at times. I observe/watch and hopefully know what I am seeing.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I consider myself a pet breeder. I want my pups to be pets first, and sport or show dogs second. My own dogs are that way -- house dogs and pets first.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I am a Pet breeder by forum definition, I want my dogs to be of service to man in a working capacity as they were created to do. Oh, BTW, a working German Shepherd is what the dog wants to do also, if it has standard temperament.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And how many pet-line breeders breed dogs that excel in Herding, Obedience, PSA, Schutzhund, SAR, and police work? 

As other have said, it is not the titles in and off themselves that differentiate the good breeders from the pet-line breeders, but the breeding programs and the breeding goals.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Now I didn't start the breed or write the definitive book on the breed...


Which is a shame!!

We are all waiting for that book :thumbup:


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I guess I would be labeled as BYB, charleton, pet-line breeder among other names. I thought I was a breeder of German shepherds but not according to this forum. Cliff, don't forget the road runs south! Come on home, there's plenty of room for breeders like you.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> I see nobody really wants to touch those questions, I mean how many times have you heard "knowledgable" breeders on here spout off some nonsense they heard somewhere as a fact.


Well, there is knowledgeable and then there is "knowledgeable". One is able to explain and/or defend their position on various topics related to the breed using their own experiences and observations.

The other parrots back whatever "flavor of the month" has caught their attention and, because they are simply parroting back what they have heard or read, they are oblivious to the holes in their "opinion". And they can't defend or explain their position in any real depth because they don't know enough to recognize those holes for what they are. And God forbid that anyone should ask for a more in-depth explanation of why some statement is or is not true! 
Sheilah


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Doc said:


> In the beginning, Max decided which dogs were "acceptable" and which ones weren't. His his day, a German shepherd was one dog - pet, show, worker - no distinction between the 3. Today, if a breeder has 8th or 9th generation dams in their kennel and doesn't bother to title or show, then he/she is automatically labeled as a BYB and couldn't possible produce a breed worthy dog. It will be these very unheard of kennels/breeders that will save the breed if we are lucky. Call them what you may, but I'll put my bet on those breeders/kennels that haven't forgotten what the German shepherd is suppose to be - a dog that can work, looks good, and is a loyal family companion all in one.


Who is calling someone with 8 generations of dogs "BYB"? What I see more commonly is someone with a 14 month old female they got from craigslist breeding to the 10 month old male that they just got from someone who had to get rid of the dog because they were moving. THAT is a BYB, by my terms. 

I may not agree with the breeding choices or goals of someone who has been breeding for 20 years, but that doesn't mean I think they are just a "backyard breeder."


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> You know the breed, JQP buying the 'pet line' are not as knowledgeable and have no clue about pedigrees...they wouldn't even know what to look for as far as observing/interacting. They just want a GSD companion. Or they hear the word "import" and think they are getting something special if the parents are imported.



This to me is really the problem. Most GSD's are family companions. They do not work. The public, myself included, do not have much if any knowledge of bloodlines or pedigrees. We still want a dog with good nerve and temperament. One that won't eat the kids or grandkids because it's so squirrely.
If people with knowledge on this forum can't even agree what constitutes BYB's, Pet Breeders or how to determine what defines a really good breeder of sound, safe dogs then how do people like myself and millions of other GSD owners or potential owners figure it out. 
It's not just GSD's either. BC's and Labs don't look the same to me as what I grew up with. IMO.
One of the comments I here the most when people start a thread about finding a good breeder is, Go meet different breeders, look at their dogs. Or go to events and watch, schutzhund or tracking or whatever. It won't help if you don't know exactly what you are seeing.
So that brings up the question. 
Should every potential owner have some kind of degree in GSD Science and History, with courses in Bloodlines and Pedigrees in order to get a decent dog?
You shouldn't have to totally understand how the computer works in order to purchase and use one.
The dog industry, and it is an industry is a zoo for potential owners. Pet or otherwise.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> You shouldn't have to totally understand how the computer works in order to purchase and use one.


Yet still you can be pushed by a seller to buy something that doesn't fit your requirements because the carcasse is pink. Someone can buy a computer to play games and find out the graphic or video target doesn't work, or need a computer to store pictures and check email and end up with the most powerful CPU on the market for 3 times the price than the netbook you really needed, as happened to my mother.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There is a difference between family owners and breeders. Breeders should breed GS the way they are supposed to be; to work, because they are a working breed. They also HAPPEN to be good family dogs when they have good working temperament. There is no one on this board who is so knowledgable or so all knowing that they should be changing the breed into what they THINK it ought to be....to me that is arrogant and egotistic. 
I don't like small dogs or giant dogs, therefore I don't go looking for people who breed oversized chihuahua's or small great danes. Let these dogs stay what they are and maybe the dog isn't for me. 
People should not need a PH'D to buy a German Shepherd....this has come with the specialization and arrogance of breeders that want to change it into what they like or can manage.
The breed is supposed to be a strong hearty, fearless, noble guardian of people and livestock. Read the standard, dictionary, or encyclopedia....this is simple. A Pet German Shepherd to me is a dog bred to be a pet instead of to work....has nothing to do with titles in 3 generations, American, German, or Canadian origin, import or export, trained or untrained. A German Shepherd that meets basic requirements is a very easy dog to train...and will withstand stress in work because it was made to do that. A German Shepherd that is a Pet will not be able to work because it is lacking in vital parts of the standard. Pet has nothing to do with "living in a home"....shoot, all my dogs pretty much go to homes BUT they can work if that's what their destiny turms out to be...just as its supposed to be. Arrogance and Ego always become important in show/sport breeding, and the founding father recognized this and strongly cautioned against breeding for either, and Pets......I really don't think that's what what was in mind when it was said "take my dog and>>>>>>>!
Just an open opinion.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Catu said:


> Yet still you can be pushed by a seller to buy something that doesn't fit your requirements because the carcasse is pink. Someone can buy a computer to play games and find out the graphic or video target doesn't work, or need a computer to store pictures and check email and end up with the most powerful CPU on the market for 3 times the price than the netbook you really needed, as happened to my mother.


True Catu. 
I'll try again. I worked 30+ years as a Mechanical Tech in engineering. 
I worked in aerospace on military and civilian jets along with some products for space. My knowledge is very oudated but I could safely say I know more about jets etc.. than a lot of people. If you don't work in that industry then it would be hard to come by that knowledge from education alone. So just because you may not understand some of the things I do about aircraft doesn't mean you won't fly. You should also expect everything is done to give you a good, solid, safe flight.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Great post Cliff. I missed it while typing response to Catu.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Until recently....I didn't even know what a "Pet Line" was....or was in reference to such.
And the term BYB is way over used and is often a mislabel.....personally...I have no use for the term.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well if we are running with the technology analogies...I work in IT at a HelpDesk and I fix student computer (work for a college). Each year we see a trend that while technology advances and people have more available to them, they actually are less capable of really understanding it to the point of even doing basic troubleshooting on their own. 95% of my work on student technology uses tools that are already available to the students/public but they do not have the initiative to use it themselves. I suppose the same could be becoming true of JQP purchasing dogs. They want all these choices available to them but at the end aren't even really sure what they are getting and why. I think it is easier to find a good breeder and a good dog (I'm using the word "good" to imply whatever you the individual reader want) than it is to figure out what to go looking for in the first place. It is the breeder's responsibility to provide good dogs like Doc and Cliff are saying but I think it is the buyer's responsibility to understand what it is they even want. Doc was talking about breeders knowing their dogs by observing generations and I think that is correct, but similarly I think a buyer needs to at least make an effort to "observe" dogs like going to the breeder to meet the dogs and see if it's what they like, not just do a PayPal deposit on a website and be put on the waiting list.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Wanted to add this: I think part of the problem is web sites. People are too quick to judge for better or worse based on a web site. It's not that you need decades of experience to understand the dogs but I gather that before this web site fad people would go around and look at dogs. I mean even if I got a dog out of the newspaper or Craigslist ad I'd have to go check it out first. But now we have fancy websites that have online payment options and price "tiers". I was going to buy a dog from someone that this forum would probably label a BYB but holy crap the man knows his stuff. No web site and his kennel name is not even grammatically correct but what the heck. People would say don't get one because he hasn't titled 50 bazillion dogs this year, the dogs live in a kennel, one is not titled, bla bla bla... I have to then say do as I say and not as I do because the guy can put a fabulous pedigree together.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I think a buyer needs to at least make an effort to "observe" dogs like going to the breeder to meet the dogs and see if it's what they like, not just do a PayPal deposit on a website and be put on the waiting list.


 I can't even venture a guess as to all the reasons good or not so good that people want GSD's but looking at dogs isn't the whole answer. Once again unless an individual is extremely knowledgable all they will see is a bunch of prety dogs and loveable pups. Probably behaving well on their own turf.

Pet stores sell puppies cause they are so darn cute. 

I don't have a solution it just shouldn't be so difficult to wade through to get a decent stable GSD or any other breed for that matter.

You are sure right about the web sites, Lies.

It's probably just wishful thinking on my part. My senility again.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> People should not need a PH'D to buy a German Shepherd....


Cliff, I think most people agree with what you're saying, but there's a giant gap between "this" is the way the breed should be and "this" is how you find one of those dogs. Can you fill in that gap? 

What would you tell a first time GSD buyer to look for in a breeder or their dogs?


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Doc said:


> She showed me. We were sitting in a room with visitors and one was a diabetic. he experienced a sugar drop and she alerted the guy. He checked his levels and they were low. He did this in several other situations as well. So I am not running her through staged tests - she expressed her instinct to me. And I am not "working her" in anything. A pup should be a pup. The pups shows me what is inside them as they grow. I encourage the owners to cultivate what is inside them and been expressed when the dogs are older (12 months; 18 months, etc.). I do not think formal training is needed until the pup is older - JMO. And I would never encourage new owners to "force" their dog to do any activity if the dog hasn't shown that trait as a young pup. I'm old school - real old school at times. I observe/watch and hopefully know what I am seeing.


It always amazes me how some dogs just know how to do things. 
That's not a trait you can title but if you're diabetic then knowing the mother has this ability or other pups in the same litter do, would be worth more then any title if that's the kind of service dog you need.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Cliff, I think most people agree with what you're saying, but there's a giant gap between "this" is the way the breed should be and "this" is how you find one of those dogs. Can you fill in that gap?
> 
> What would you tell a first time GSD buyer to look for in a breeder or their dogs?


Great question. Cliff or anyone else. Could sure help wannabe owners to find the right places to look.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> One of the comments I here the most when people start a thread about finding a good breeder is, Go meet different breeders, look at their dogs. Or go to events and watch, schutzhund or tracking or whatever. It won't help if you don't know exactly what you are seeing.


Yes, it will help even if you don't know exactly what you are seeing. 

Case in point:
A few weeks ago a neighbor I hadn't met yet stopped me in the street and proceeded to go on and on about how gorgeous Kopper was, how she'd never seen anything like that and she wanted one _just like him_. She and her husband had been talking about getting a GSD and she wanted my breeder's contact info. 

In invited her to my house and she spent a few hours with my dogs. After only a few hours, she said, "You know what, I do NOT want a dog like him. He's gorgeous but he's, um . . . . a little busy, isn't he? I laughingly agreed. She's probably going to end up adopting a 2 year old rescue that is calm, quiet, lower drive and lower energy. 

One of Kopper's siblings was just returned to the breeder because his buyer-- who'd dogs but never a GSD-- couldn't handle him. 

People have got to go out and meet dogs, even if they don't understand things like drives and thresholds and whatever. Too many people buy a dog they think is gorgeous off a website description.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Yes, it will help even if you don't know exactly what you are seeing.
> 
> Case in point:
> A few weeks ago a neighbor I hadn't met yet stopped me in the street and proceeded to go on and on about how gorgeous Kopper was, how she'd never seen anything like that and she wanted one _just like him_. She and her husband had been talking about getting a GSD and she wanted my breeder's contact info.
> ...


When I first started asking people about the GSD's they owned and told them I was looking at getting one, everyone would always ask me "what kind of dogs have you owned, you know a GSD can be very active" to which I would respond "I've always had border collies" the other people would always laughed and say "Oh you'll be fine then" 

The activty I'm fine with but GSD's are still different then the BC's, but they've won first place in my heart.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Yes, it will help even if you don't know exactly what you are seeing.
> 
> Case in point:
> A few weeks ago a neighbor I hadn't met yet stopped me in the street and proceeded to go on and on about how gorgeous Kopper was, how she'd never seen anything like that and she wanted one _just like him_. She and her husband had been talking about getting a GSD and she wanted my breeder's contact info.
> ...


I agree with the example you gave, Emoore. 
That was close up and personal. 
It is more effective in someone deciding they don't want one. I 'm still not sure though. My dog is WGWL and is pretty calm and laid back so your neighbor would have had a different experience. Well, at least after the initial excitement about a guest wore off.

I was really referring to breeders places and or events. They are controlled environments to a degree and all the dogs look great.

If wannabe owners maybe went to classes where they could see some of the not so well behaved, nervous, hyper active dogs. that might help.

Still won't tell you how to find a good breeder though.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Maybe she could have met both of our dogs and decided she liked the WGWL better. 'As it was, she met this little 2 year old I was temp fostering and is planning to adopt her when they get back from vacation. 

Meeting dogs can help you find a good breeder because if you find dogs you like, you can find out where they came from.

Basically what I'm getting at is that people shouldn't commit to getting a puppy until they've spent time with a puppy. They shouldn't decide they *need* a dark/black sable DDR until spending time with one or two. They shouldn't go spend $2000 on a WGSL because they *must have* a red and black dog until they've had the chance to hang out with some. 

Having been in rescue for 10 years, I see the results of this kind of thing all the time so I'm kinda passionate about it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ Whiteshepherds,
I think a first time buyer should go out and see the puppies and parents to get a feel of what they are getting. Though they may not be knowledgable, they can observe a calm confident dog if that is what they want. If what they see is too much, then they can look at others or maybe change to another breed. (Everything we like isn't always good for us, especially if our lifestyle is not conducive)
If they can't go, then they should seek the advice of the most knowledgable person they can and follow their advice. Much better chance than picking off an internet.JMO


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Absolutely...thats why I think Kiiji/e-bay ads can be detrimental. The convenience of clicking a 
paypal tab for many is huge. 
Though I know breeders need to put their names out there. 

I have a "pet line" from a pet line breeder( I don't like the way breeders are classified, so am going with this because of the thread title), she was not picked out by me, a surprise to the family~ but she is my responsibility. 

I just wish the breeder would have been more responsible before she bred, got paperwork in order and really researched the sire she chose to compliment her female. She knew genetics(coloring) and knew some of the bigger name kennels(enough to make her dangerous?) yet didn't do the health tests or have pedigree info in place before breeding. I don't know how many of her pups or their pups ended up in shelters, even though she had a contract of FR, she moved often, hard to keep tabs on her

I am a bit biased when it comes to some of these type "pet line" breeders.
We have too many as far as I'm concerned, they do nothing to add to the breeds endurance, more about the demise.


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