# Bothering a dog while it is eating: controversy



## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

So there seems to be a controversy in the dog world.

There are those who say that you shouldn’t bother a dog that’s eating at all (like me) and there are those that say you should practice taking a dog’s food away in order to prevent food agression. They also say this because it supposedly will assure your dog that you are the Alpha.

I say just dont bother a dog that’s eating at all. I mean I can’t name one animal or person that likes it when someone takes their food away or to be bothered while eating.

But I am one for hearing other points of views, what are y’alls thoughts on this?


EDIT: i just re read the title and it sounds completely wrong, can a Mod please change the Thread Title?


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

I'd say you should leave any animal that's eating alone. After all, we don't like it when they bother us while we're eating!

That said, you should always be able to take something out of your dogs mouth when they aren't eating their meal. Mostly as a practical matter in the event they try to eat or chew on something they shouldn't. The vast majority of dogs can tell the difference.

I will not, however, tolerate growling in demand for food or growling before I've walked away after putting the food down. That is an instance where I will either refuse to put the food down until they're quiet, or stand there and wait for a few seconds of silence. I won't take the food away nor will I lean over, but I will stand there, unmoving.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I thought for a second we had a controversy over eating dogs:laugh2:

I agree that dogs should not be bothered when they are eating. 

BUT.. most dogs end up with kids around, a lot of people refuse to crate a dog for meals. Reason dictates that at some point crawling baby or wobbling toddler or excited preteen may bump pooch while eating. I was visiting a friend when my son was about 3 and as we proceeded through the kitchen his dog turned and lunged at my son. She was eating and her dish was near the door. Fortunately I was quick on the draw that day and pulled my child out of harms way, but he did nothing wrong. He was in no way touching or bothering the dog.
Puppies in my house get hand fed a lot. In fact I used to have my son feed them. It's not that I want to bother them eating, it's that I understand that in a busy household stuff happens. 
Bud was really aggressive about food and rather then pick a fight I crated him for meals. Had he been available for adoption I would have worked on it. 
Some people believe that you can make a dog food aggressive but honestly it has not happened in my house. The point is more to reassure that food is still there even with my fingers in the way then to taunt them and make them feel a need to fight.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Ha, yes, I thought we were going to debate about whether or not to eat dogs, or what seasoning goes best. ;-)

So I am in your camp - 
we leave our dog alone when he's eating and I told my kids never to touch/bother him when he's eating.
The few times when I've carelessly "reached in there" (i.e. forgot to add his glucosamine tablet, refill the water bowl, etc) he has had zero reaction. He also lets me take his Kong and thump it for him so the last bits fall out. 

I do wonder if taking their food away/interrupting their eating generates feelings of anxiety and stress around eating, and can actually heighten food aggression?

And "feeding from your hand" is different from "taking away the food bowl", I think. I think it feels different to the dog - knowing owner controls food and can give it food, feels different than eating your food and having the owner arbitrarily take it away.

But there are people who say they NEED to have a dog who will never be aggressive around food no matter what, because they have small children and one never knows what will happen. But I think that even small kids (unless babies) should be taught not to bother dog when it's eating...that's good practice around any animal, for safety!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Don't eat dogs.

Don't tease dogs with their own food.

Don't be a tool. 

See....no controversy.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDchoice said:


> Ha, yes, I thought we were going to debate about whether or not to eat dogs, or what seasoning goes best. ;-)
> 
> So I am in your camp -
> we leave our dog alone when he's eating and I told my kids never to touch/bother him when he's eating.
> ...



So yes. I do not just randomly steal my dogs food. That is mean.

I sit on the floor, dish in my lap, hands in the dish, dog eating while I randomly feed bits or even extra yummies. They eat around my fingers and willingly take what I offer. There is zero interruption of feeding or threats of removal. When the kids were little I used to have them do the same. I would also have them pet the puppies and offer treats during meals. 

No removing of dishes! I would bite you for that.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

I have always made sure I can bother any dog I have owned while eating. Always had good results. Funny thing about kids, toddlers and crawling babies, and don't always listen. Seen the results of more than a few kids whose dog didn't like them near their food.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Don't eat dogs.
> 
> Don't tease dogs with their own food.
> 
> ...


LOL can we make this post a sticky??


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> So there seems to be a controversy in the dog world.
> 
> There are those who say that you shouldn’t bother a dog that’s eating at all (like me) and there are those that say you should practice taking a dog’s food away in order to prevent food agression. They also say this because it supposedly will assure your dog that you are the Alpha.
> 
> ...


I was so happy this thread was not about what the original title implied, lol. I changed it for you.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Feed all new dogs / puppies by hand (in SOME capacity, for SOME period of time) - build that trust and rapport.

If resource guarding is observed - manage it, leave dog alone while eating.

If resource guarding is not observed - go on about life as usual which may include the rare instance when you have to pick up the food dish mid meal, etc, but more commonly I would take it to mean that most often you’d - leave dogs alone while eating.

I have not known a resource guarder to be “fixed” by constantly bothering them...

I have known them (in a rescue context) to be “fixed” with time, patience and relationship.

That said - I’m on the fence about “creating” a resource guarder by constantly bothering them... although I’ve seen them become worse.

There is a genetic component.

I can confidently walk in my house right now and stick my hand in my dogs bowls while eating - but why the heck would I!?


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## Custom Billet (Mar 10, 2018)

I think genetics have a LOT to do with it.

I have a Pyrenees/Bernese that from day one, was VERY much resource guarder. Sweetest animal/breed(s) on the planet. Unless you got near him when he was eating. Best thing I ever did is just to leave him alone when eating. Now on the other hand, giving treats, he is amazingly gentle taking them from me. I don't think his teeth have ever touched my hands after puppyhood. He takes them from my fingers with his lips.

Then I got the 9.5 week old GSD. I was fully prepared to have the same issues, if not worse. No way. I fed her by hand at the beginning because she needed antibiotics. I had to make sure she was getting them down. Never had an issue with it. I brush her daily while eating. She pays no attention to me. I can take her bowl at any time. She looks at me like, but why? 

My take is that they are who they are, and you have to treat them based on how they react. If you have a reactive dog, don't let kids near them while they are eating. I'm not sure you can completely train it out of them or ever trust them completely with a toddler while eating.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

I agree that it has a lot to do with genetics. You can make it worse if you constantly keep taking their food away from them but I don't think you can create it by taking their food away.

I've always made my dogs sit, I put the food down, they must wait until I give them the command to eat... Once they start eating I give them two pats on their side and walk away... the kids do the same. I know I can touch Kaiser whilst eating and it won't bother him, I know the kids can play games around him whilst he is lying eating a bone and he won't be bothered about it, and I also know I can take a big juicy bone out his mouth without an issue.... and I've done it a few times.... I give him a bone outside, he brings it inside, I take it away and throw it back outside, and he goes and lies outside. He seems to try test this rule almost every time. Normally when I tell him "outside" he will go, but if he has a bone he won't listen, he brings it in and lies on my new carpet, so I take the bone away and throw it outside and off he goes... its a game or its cheekiness but I've never had an issue.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I have always taught dogs 2 things about their food. First, if I'm messing with their food ever after I've given it to them, it's to add more or something really good! And second, I really don't care whether it's food or a toy or any other reason, I will react immediately with extreme prejudice IF THEY EVER FOR ANY REASON SNAP AT A CHILD! 

This has been perfectly understood by any dog I or my family has ever owned, and we have never had a small child or toddler hurt. It falls to the dog to understand, not the child when they're small. This is something I feel strongly enough about that it is the one thing a dog can do that I'm willing to fight them over...

But you can crate them also if that works for you >


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## Kari01 (Sep 7, 2018)

To be honest I had heard that it's good to get a dog used to being hassled when eating so that they don't develop issues with guarding food or snapping, but I don't know if this works well in all cases or not. I like a lot of people shudder at the thought of a young child being snapped at because of the food bowl, so that was my reasoning.

My girl was not a big eater when she was a young pup, so I hand-fed her a lot to encourage her to eat. I also frequently stuck my hand in her bowl and touched her when she was eating. I also often take her bowl away from her when she is eating (and often I return it to her with fresh cuts of meat having appeared the bowl! - thus hopefully making her realise that good things may come out of someone touching her food). In my case, I have never had *any* issues with food aggression, literally not a hint, but I couldn't say for sure if that's coincidence or because of my efforts ?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I don’t mess with my dogs when they are eating. I cringe when people say they put their hands in their dog’s bowl while they’re eating, “so the dog knows who the alpha is”. I don’t understand how this ever became a thing. It in no way makes sense. I DO think you can create a resource guarding issue if you are constantly messing with their food. Not for every dog, of course, and I’m sure genetics could play a role, as well. But why chance it? 

As for the kids thing... I don’t think it falls to the dog to not react OR the kid to know better. It falls to the parent or the other adults around said kid to keep the child away from a dog while they are eating. I mean, really, it’s not that hard to provide a safe space (a crate, a room with a closed door, etc) for a dog to eat where a child will not bother them while they’re eating.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> As for the kids thing... I don’t think it falls to the dog to not react OR the kid to know better. It falls to the parent or the other adults around said kid to keep the child away from a dog while they are eating. I mean, really, it’s not that hard to provide a safe space (a crate, a room with a closed door, etc) for a dog to eat where a child will not bother them while they’re eating.


I'm a bit surprised by this response, given what you said in another thread about giving a correction severe enough for single event learning for your dog trying to hump another dog...I guess our priorities differ a lot!

I have, and always will, prefered to teach the dog because accidents happen, but if the dog knows better it doesn't end in a child being hurt. Just sayin...

Some things are dangerous, others, undesirable. When It's dangerous, a severe correction is warranted IMO. When it's not...I prefer a more moderate approach...but to each their own...


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## AddieCrow (Jul 9, 2018)

I dont mess with my dogs when they eat but I do make sure that I teach them that if I reach down to grab there bowl or even grab something out of it (to add something or if something dosnt belong in the bowl) to ignore my hand. I never take there food away but "dont bite the hand that feeds you" is kinda my idea.
I also set down the food and tell them wait, and untill I say okay they dont get food. I dont have little kids to worry about and everyone is fed away from each other (some in there own kennel) so they dont feel they need to race or fight for food. Most of my cats are outdoor cats but I also dont tolerate a dog snapping at a cat of they get close, I shoo the cats away when I notice one getting close if they do, but if I'm not right there I dont want a hurt or dead cat over a bowl of food. 
And the main reason i do what i do is if i give one of my dogs a bone or i see they have food they shouldnt (floor surfing or whatever) I dont need them sniping or anything if I try to take it away, but I also train them to drop it and leave it.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

I guess I am with Tim on this one. I always teach my dogs that resource guarding, of food/food dishes in particular, is not acceptable. My ex's heeler and I went a few rounds before he understood this (quite stubborn was he). He and I got along great after that, although he still growled at my ex for a time, he learned not to growl or bite us or the other dog or cat that might be around. 

I periodically took care of a co-worker's adolescent golden retriever (I had a GSD/Akita at the time). His resource guarding of any food was a problem at home as he would growl and snap at the adults as well as the children. I tried to get him to respond to me in that fashion so that I could correct him, but he never would (nor did he ever challenge my boy). This was true for his food dish, treats, or even a fresh meaty bone. The dish he would nicely step aside and wait while I did whatever I was going to do. The bone he would just give it to me if I asked for it or just reached for it (be it on the ground or in his mouth). I guess my usual long winded point is that we can make a resource guarding dog by catering to it, he knew I wouldn't tolerate it (and I was boss) so he submitted and life was good. 

While I don't make a habit of messing with my dogs' food, I do expect them to behave appropriately when I do or if my Mom does as she no longer understands not to do this.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm a bit surprised by this response, given what you said in another thread about giving a correction severe enough for single event learning for your dog trying to hump another dog...I guess our priorities differ a lot!
> 
> I have, and always will, prefered to teach the dog because accidents happen, but if the dog knows better it doesn't end in a child being hurt. Just sayin...
> 
> Some things are dangerous, others, undesirable. When It's dangerous, a severe correction is warranted IMO. When it's not...I prefer a more moderate approach...but to each their own...


I’m not willing to set my dogs up to fail in order to teach them that if a child accidentally touches them while they are eating or reaches for their food, they are to sit there and take it. Dogs take, what, less than five minutes to finish a meal? I think I can provide them a safe space for five minutes to eat in peace. I have multiple dogs, so mine eat in crates anyway. Takes all the worry away.

And I find it strange that you seem to equate a harsh correction for something that could cause a dog fight as not a matter of safety. And harsh doesn’t equal abuse. You don’t know my dogs or what type of corrections they respond to. But I guess we definitely do see things differently!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Put me in the camp of "teach a dog early that you might have to take food away" especially since pups tend to pick up things they shouldn't be eating. Later, If I pick up food it is to replace it with something better or add something tasty. Other than that I leave my dogs alone. In fact I separate me dogs for meals. They actually separate themselves with long lasting treats. When I work / train them together I use their name to let each know which can expect the treat from my hand. I try to make their need to guard as small as possible. 

someday if I have grand children toddling around, I'll keep the kiddos away from the dogs while they are eating. It is just good manners not to mess with someone, dog or human, while they are eating.
A toddler offering a treat, that is an entirely different story. I remember my boy Bandit, decades ago, gently taking a tidbit of bologna from my baby girl's hand. It was charming. With the two I have now, I wouldn't try that if they were together. Sometimes they almost take my hand off, if they get too excited about a treat!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Two different issues: 1) I don’t let my dog ever growl or snap at me without consequences 2) I don’t mess with dog while they are eating, that is their time not our shared time.


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## saintbob (Jul 14, 2018)

I was forced by the wife to return a well trained border collie rescue because of a food aggression issue.

While I was of the opinion just leave the dog alone while he ate...she was not.

If you got withing 3ft he would bare his teeth and growl. The experts at rescue explained it was an issue and that he was better at it than when they got him. Too bad, he was a wonderful outside dog great at off leash voice commands...stayed close to me on the trails, hoped joyfully in to the truck. A great companion 

It could be a real recipe for disaster if children were around.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

. I always respected by leaving them alone their feeding time and all bowls get picked up after they eat. When they were pups on rare ocassion if I walked by a put food like fresh meat in their food. As pups if I ever had to take something out of their mouths if they grabbed something they should not have I replaced it with a piece of food. I had not had any issues with any of my dogs but do wonder if it is genetic.


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## Beau's Mom (Nov 9, 2017)

I agree that it’s a basic need to eat in peace, and I don’t bother anyone while eating unless it’s absolutely necessary. 

That said, I’ve always handled Beau’s (well, all my dogs’) food as needed, without thinking too much about it. Most of the time, he’s left to eat undisturbed in his crate. Crated because when he moved in there was a Papillon here who was a tiny little food Hoover, and as a puppy he would’ve let her eat all his dinner if she wanted it. The habit persisted when she moved out, though now the crate door is left open. I like how it contains the mess.

First time there’s ever been an issue of any kind with handling his food was the other night. Beau’d been working on a piece of bone that had been part of his dinner, and it had gotten small enough to be dangerous. As usual, I crouched down to take it away. Typically he accepts that without protest. This time, he crossed both paws over the bone piece so it was difficult to grab, and exerted enough pressure to make it a real effort to remove from under his paws. I guess he didn’t think he was done with it yet. No snap, no growl, nothing but passive resistance to losing the bone. I sat back on my heels and told him to Leave It and when he reluctantly did, thanked him and gave him a treat in trade. 

I can’t even imagine one of my dogs ever growling or snapping at me, over food or anything else. And why would I let anyone else get close enough to interfere with his dinner? My granddaughter is 2.5 and already understands to stay away from him and his crate when he’s eating. (Door closed when she’s here.) He’s never growled at her, either, but why risk a problem when it’s so easy to prevent?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

I'm a busy house with two or more toddlers a crawling baby, things happen. Plastic surgeons spend a lot of time and making lots of dollars repairing dog bites that occurred while the dog was eating. Why take the chance.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Its a saftey issue, not a dominance issue for Inga. She could find a dead salmon or fish guts and get salmon sickness in the Pacific North West. She could be dead from it two weeks later. She is also not allowed to eat baby rabbits alive. (they scream when she finds them). But its not a matter of being able to take her food. Its a matter of leaving the food on command. 

When fed she must sit and wait for the Eat command. Eating is one of the highlights of a dogs day and I have empathy for her gladness. But once in a while, just for practice I say Leave it! For obeying she comes to me and I give her something delicious. Then tell her Eat Eat and she returns to the food. 

This works great, she will drop a baby rabbit she would have eaten alive. It works great when the salmon spawn and the river side is littered with dead fish, or fishermen have cleaned fish and there are fish guts. This can save her life, or at least, save me a giant vet bill.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

I did it some with my male pup when we got him, he was displaying some resource guarding issues & eating dangerously quickly.

I first fed him by hand, every kernel for nearly a week. 

Then I would take the food while he was eating, then immediately give it back to him after putting something tasty in there. 

It's worked, but the point I was trying to convey was that A) food comes from me, it's not manna that fell from the heavens b) There's not necessarily a nefarious purpose for me taking something from you. 

That being said, he's a Mal from KNPV lines. Feeding time before I got him was dadgum Thunderdome LOL


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I can take anything from my dogs while they are eating with no growling or issues. I leave my dogs alone while they eat. I have never understood the need to harass our dogs while they eat. Much of the food issues are created by the people trying to prevent an issue that wasn't there to begin with.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not mess with a dog's food, once it is down it is theirs. But if I have to, I can pick the dish up and put it somewhere else. There is no fanfare in this. I just do it. But I can't remember the last time I had to. 



As for kids, I can now send my nieces (they are 11) out to feed my dogs on their own. Once when they were about 7, I had them doling out food while I cleaned the kennel. For some reason, Elena, after dumping a measure of food had to reach down and put her hand in the dish. It wasn't a problem. And it shouldn't have been. 



I am not the alpha in my pack. I don't want to be, I don't need to be, I am not a dog. I am the human in my pack, and every one of the dogs know that. I do not flip them over to make them show me their belly, I do not force the to lie on a down-stay for 30 minutes, I do not play in their food dishes. But somehow these incredibly intelligent creatures have figured out that I am the human. I can remove a bone from their mouth if I need to. I can remove the food dish, even if it is full, if I need to. I never need to. Feeding time is a big deal for my dogs, it is like an ice cream party every single day. Why would I want to add stress to that chaos. I do not use their food/ their main meal of the day for training or leadership or punishment or anything. If they sucked in breath today, then they get their food with no added strings attached. They do not have to SIT or anything. 



For some strange reason, all my dogs respect me and listen to me, and are safe with children, and adults. I cannot think of a single behavioral complaint at the moment. I can take them anywhere, and I can trust them.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

This shouldn't even be a discussion. Leave the dogs alone while they eat. If you constantly screw with their food, then they feel they have to guard it. If you leave it alone then there is nothing to guard it from. Pretty simple. Very rarely do I see a dog who is truly possessive. Majority of dogs I see with resource guarding issues are human created. Leave the dogs alone. That way in the rare occasion you have to touch their food, bow, toy or whatever, it's not the norm and the dogs don't think anything of it.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

selzer said:


> I do not mess with a dog's food, once it is down it is theirs. But if I have to, I can pick the dish up and put it somewhere else. There is no fanfare in this. I just do it. But I can't remember the last time I had to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shocking! :surprise::surprise::surprise:

It's almost as if, being the Alpha, just means being the leader and provider. And doesn't involve playing any stupid games, like "never letting them walk through a door before you" or "taking away their food when they're eating to show you can" or "flipping them over and holding them down to show how tough you are".

Whenever I hear "you have to be the Alpha", it's almost invariably followed by treating your dog by Prison Rules. :|


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

opcorn:so no real controversy here. It seems most, if not all of us, say let the dogs eat in peace. If you have to pick up the food or take something away just do it. Offer a nice goody in exchange if you can. Teach kids to behave around dogs or separate them from each other during meal time. 

Flip side of the coin, my dogs are discouraged from bothering humans when they eat, too. opcorn: :gsdbeggin:


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> This shouldn't even be a discussion. Leave the dogs alone while they eat. If you constantly screw with their food, then they feel they have to guard it. If you leave it alone then there is nothing to guard it from. Pretty simple. Very rarely do I see a dog who is truly possessive. Majority of dogs I see with resource guarding issues are human created. Leave the dogs alone. That way in the rare occasion you have to touch their food, bow, toy or whatever, it's not the norm and the dogs don't think anything of it.



I suppose the dissension here may be in the interpretation of the question.


I do not randomly remove my dogs dishes while they eat. That's teasing and it's mean. Leave it is a non negotiable command for me, and if I need to take something from them it is that which I would use. 
Rather with a sure understanding of a busy household I take action to ensure that an incidental touch/bump/invasion is not seen as a threat. So when raising puppies we do a lot of hand feeding and cuddling. There is no threat and no cause for concern because at no point is the access to food in jeopardy. We are instead conditioning pups to things that may occur during a hectic meal time.
I think we all tend to forget that the dog owners represented on this forum are not necessarily indicative of JQP and their dogs.

I will not tolerate any dog snapping at a child. Ever. Repercussions for that are swift and definite. Kids are grown and gone, it still applies. The only action acceptable if the dogs are displeased with a child's actions is to get up and leave the area. Protecting the dogs is my job, it is up to me to remove offensive children.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I have always taught dogs 2 things about their food. First, if I'm messing with their food ever after I've given it to them, it's to add more or something really good! And second, I really don't care whether it's food or a toy or any other reason, I will react immediately with extreme prejudice IF THEY EVER FOR ANY REASON SNAP AT A CHILD!
> 
> This has been perfectly understood by any dog I or my family has ever owned, and we have never had a small child or toddler hurt. It falls to the dog to understand, not the child when they're small. This is something I feel strongly enough about that it is the one thing a dog can do that I'm willing to fight them over...
> 
> But you can crate them also if that works for you >



Crating small children or toddlers while the dog eats seems a bit extreme........but it's better than having them get bit....I suppose.


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> Crating small children or toddlers while the dog eats seems a bit extreme........but it's better than having them get bit....I suppose.
> 
> 
> SuperG


You can fit several in a 48". I heard it from a friend.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> You can fit several in a 48". I heard it from a friend.


The last time my 8 year old niece was here, she put herself in one of our 48” dog crates. She had plenty of room for friends. Just sayin’.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GypsyGhost said:


> The last time my 8 year old niece was here, she put herself in one of our 48” dog crates. She had plenty of room for friends. Just sayin’.


Stack 'em like a cord of wood.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

SuperG said:


> Crating small children or toddlers while the dog eats seems a bit extreme........but it's better than having them get bit....I suppose.
> 
> 
> SuperG


Hadn't really thought about doing it thay way, but you know what they say: Desperate times...and all that LOL!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

The manufacturers are way ahead of you fools. I took this pic a few weeks ago when I was fitting a new crate into my car setup.

Apparently one too many consumers has been stuffing children into dog crates, they now come with warning labels. NOT FOR CHILDREN.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WIBackpacker said:


> The manufacturers are way ahead of you fools. I took this pic a few weeks ago when I was fitting a new crate into my car setup.
> 
> Apparently one too many consumers has been stuffing children into dog crates, they now come with warning labels. NOT FOR CHILDREN.



Huh....wonder who that consumer is that caused that warning......asking for a friend.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> The manufacturers are way ahead of you fools. I took this pic a few weeks ago when I was fitting a new crate into my car setup.
> 
> Apparently one too many consumers has been stuffing children into dog crates, they now come with warning labels. NOT FOR CHILDREN.


Probably just because whoever wrote that warning doesn't have kids...not suitable, HA! ROTFLOL!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Crating small children or toddlers while the dog eats seems a bit extreme........but it's better than having them get bit....I suppose.
> 
> 
> SuperG


I have long stated that the problem with children is that it's frowned on to crate them.

My son informed the daycare lady once that he was fully crate trained. Caused a bit of a problem. Apparently that is frowned upon. 
He also told them that he was fully obedience trained.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> I don’t mess with my dogs when they are eating. I cringe when people say they put their hands in their dog’s bowl while they’re eating, “so the dog knows who the alpha is”. I don’t understand how this ever became a thing. It in no way makes sense. I DO think you can create a resource guarding issue if you are constantly messing with their food. Not for every dog, of course, and I’m sure genetics could play a role, as well. But why chance it?
> 
> As for the kids thing... I don’t think it falls to the dog to not react OR the kid to know better. It falls to the parent or the other adults around said kid to keep the child away from a dog while they are eating. I mean, really, it’s not that hard to provide a safe space (a crate, a room with a closed door, etc) for a dog to eat where a child will not bother them while they’re eating.


I never messed with my dog's food when she was eating unless I was adding something high value (a piece of hot dog, chicken, cheese). I would never take her food away or stick my fingers in; I'd let her see me coming with the chicken and let her see me drop it in.

Regarding an earlier poster punishing for snapping at a child: It seems eminently unwise to punish for giving a warning. It seems a whole lot smarter to go to the child and usher them away from the dog, acknowledge "that was scary, but we need to leave Rex alone when he's eating. Rex let you know he didn't like that, right? Let's go do something else and we can play with Rex when he's done." That way you leave the dog's warning signals intact. My dog is almost never around little kids at mealtime, but I would so much rather have her snap or growl and scare a child but not harm it, versus going right to a nip and possibly hurting the child.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> The manufacturers are way ahead of you fools. I took this pic a few weeks ago when I was fitting a new crate into my car setup.
> 
> Apparently one too many consumers has been stuffing children into dog crates, they now come with warning labels. NOT FOR CHILDREN.


What I'm getting from that picture is that it's perfectly fine to stuff children into dog crates, but the bags are hazardous and should not be considered toys.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Crating children builds character


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Nice having dogs and kids you can trust to make good choices in this regard.


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## wildwolf60 (Apr 13, 2001)

Of all the dogs we have had, we pretty much kind of tailored to their personality a bit. Most of ours were the type where we could stick our hand in the food bowl, add, take away, and no issues, ever. Never had any problems with bones, either , every single dog we have owned loved it when we held their bones for them to chew on, lol. 
Our current boy, I leave him alone when he’s eating. He tenses up, and stops eating but never growls or anything if he is approached during his eating. I usually just let him know if I am adding food, or whatever, and he relaxes, but I don’t push it. I could take the bowl away, no problem, but I am not gonna push his comfort zone, he does love me holding his chewing bones for him, and I can take away anything he has in his mouth with no protest. 
We don’t have kids, so I never had that problem either.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Miika's Mom said:


> I guess I am with Tim on this one. I always teach my dogs that resource guarding, of food/food dishes in particular, is not acceptable.


I don't think anyone is saying resource guarding is acceptable, just that messing with your dog while they're eating, or taking away their food and giving it back is a misguided way to teach them not to resource guard. For some dogs, it's fine. You can do that all day long and there's no fallout. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea, or that we should be routinely recommending it. With the wrong dog, it absolutely can backfire, and unless you're 100% sure that your dog isn't going to mind (in which case it's probably not doing any good either), why risk it? Especially when there are much better ways to prevent resource guarding by establishing trust, by behaving fairly and consistently.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

All my dogs were adopted as adults. I knew Max's (Yellow Lab) background, he went to a family as a puppy and they gave him up when he was about 5 as the parents were divorcing, but with Newlie and now Rocky (GSD), I knew basically nothing at all. None of my dogs have ever resource guarded which I assume has mostly been dumb luck. I have never stuck my hands in their food, deliberately took their food away from them as a test or anything like that, but I also don't have kids to worry about or even other dogs. I always just have one dog at a time.

With Newlie, I started asking for a sit before putting his food down as he tended to be impulsive and this was a small way to teach impulse control. Rocky believes in being comfortable, he always just lays down to eat on his own initiative, lol. Once I put the food down, though, I believe in letting the dog eat his food in peace. I might talk to him a little while he's eating or pat his back as I walk by, but it's usually calm and quiet and they can just relax. Every once in a blue moon, I might have to pick the bowl up because I need to add something to it, but they get it right back again. There has never been an issue.

I have said this often enough before, but if someone made a habit of putting their hands in my food or taking my plate away when I was eating, they would soon be missing a finger or two.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I thought about this, and realize that I make (best way I can say it) 'loving, bonding' eye-contact with all my dogs prior to putting down their food bowl. I tell them they are a good dog, and often give them a pat, and leave them to it. Often, I'll add in a bit of extra if there are leftover scraps while they are eating. None resource guard and some come from very strong lines. 

I see feeding time as a time to show my dogs that I am the provider, and I will always take care of them. I used to ask for some OB and other stuff, because it was suggested by working dog people but that's not the way I do it anymore. Each person has their own approach. When we train, I might feed less or none and feed everything in training. But for everyday, all I ask is 'soft' eye contact. Which comes naturally to all my dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Fodder said:


> That said - I’m on the fence about “creating” a resource guarder by constantly bothering them... although I’ve seen them become worse.
> 
> There is a genetic component.


Right. Halo could have easily become a resource guarder, it was clear from a young age that the tendency was there. So I set out immediately doing proactive training to establish a relationship of trust, to make sure she never felt the need. That worked so spectacularly that she would bring me her bones to hold for her while she chewed them, she brought me her precious Orbee ball so I could take it away and give it back a couple of times, and then satisfied, she'd go lay on the floor and chew it. It was a little game she made up.

I would have to try really, really hard to turn Cava into a resource guarder. And what idiot would do that? :rofl: She's just not proprietary about stuff the way Halo (Everything Here is Mine!) was. Keefer either. 



> I can confidently walk in my house right now and stick my hand in my dogs bowls while eating - but why the heck would I!?


Exactly! There is just no reason to randomly yank away something I've given to my dogs. Once I've given it to them, it's theirs. Now, if it's something they got that they aren't supposed to have, I can and do take it away, but that's not the same thing. 



Kari01 said:


> To be honest I had heard that it's good to get a dog used to being hassled when eating so that they don't develop issues with guarding food or snapping, but I don't know if this works well in all cases or not.


I think when it "works", it's because it was a dog that was never going to be a resource guarder in the first place. So it's more that using the technique with that particular dog did no harm to the relationship, not that it was a sound concept in general. 



mycobraracr said:


> This shouldn't even be a discussion. Leave the dogs alone while they eat. If you constantly screw with their food, then they feel they have to guard it. If you leave it alone then there is nothing to guard it from. Pretty simple. Very rarely do I see a dog who is truly possessive. Majority of dogs I see with resource guarding issues are human created. Leave the dogs alone. That way in the rare occasion you have to touch their food, bow, toy or whatever, it's not the norm and the dogs don't think anything of it.


^ This.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Regarding an earlier poster punishing for snapping at a child: It seems eminently unwise to punish for giving a warning. It seems a whole lot smarter to go to the child and usher them away from the dog, acknowledge "that was scary, but we need to leave Rex alone when he's eating. Rex let you know he didn't like that, right? Let's go do something else and we can play with Rex when he's done." That way you leave the dog's warning signals intact. My dog is almost never around little kids at mealtime, but I would so much rather have her snap or growl and scare a child but not harm it, versus going right to a nip and possibly hurting the child.


I'm curious what you see as the "lesson" for the dog in doing this? Do you believe that your dog truly understands that growling or snapping at, but not nipping or biting, a child is ok, simply by ushering the child away? A dog's warning signals typically, but not always follow a pretty set process. It starts with body language and maybe a growl, then a snap - air snap usually, but again not always, then a nip or a bite. That progression, or escalation sequence, is pretty common in most cases initially.

If there are no consequences for the dog they'd learn that they are free to scare the kids off whenever they like...behavior like that often escalates of its own accord because the dog has seen just how well it works. 

Failure to correct the dog for that kind of behavior, IMHO, is setting both the dog and the children up for imminent failure!

We can agree to disagree... but I would urge anyone dealing with a dog with small children around to seriously consider teaching their dog to leave kids alone always. Kids are off limits! Dog's do well with clear boundaries, and once a dog is trained, in 45 years I've never had a dog snap at a child for any reason, nor bite them, nor growl at them. 

My dogs have 2 and only 2 clear choices. Tolerate the child, or get away. Any other approach for the dog is strongly discouraged...i.e. no growling, no snapping, no nipping, no biting. 

Once a dog understands those rules, they can be trusted...and you can be sure they won't react badly when that crawler or small child gets away from you, or forgets and gets too close...

I'm not saying for one second that you shouldn't also teach kids to leave the dogs alone and respect their space! By all means do that too!

But in the end, it's the dog that needs to show restraint, because young kids don't always remember...

I met a lady just the other day who was admiring my dog from a distance. In talking to her I learned that while she really loved GSDs, and had grown up with them, she was afraid them still because she was bitten in the face by one when she was 5 yrs old...don't let your dog do that to a kid! Teach them kids are off limits!


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

My previous GSD, I could take his food or treats any time I wanted and he was cool with it. Never had any problems with him. He was very gentle/careful with his mouth. The current 8 months old...not at all. I've been bit twice now. He has drawn blood. He growls at me if I don't put his food down fast enough. If I make him wait for it, he goes nuts. If I get too close while he eats, he growls. If I reach for his bowl, forget it, he'll snap at me. I give him bones (or any high value treats) and when I go to take it away from him, he growls and shows his growly face at me. When I went to reach for his frisbee outside while we were playing, he chomped down on my hand. That one hurt bad. However, there are some things that I can do that makes me think he's not completely gone. I can hold his antler while he's gnawing on it without any problem. In fact he wants me to hold it for him. I can hand feed him, but that doesn't help me/him. I can walk over him and straddle him while he's eating, no problem.

While I agree with everyone that we shouldn't bother them while they're eating, there are times when you need to take the bowl/food/treat/toys away. If I can't do it without getting my hand all bloody with the possibility of the tendons in my hand being ripped by those sharp teeth, then there's a problem. He's 8 months old now and 80 lbs and I'd like to get this "fixed" before he gets to be full grown.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm curious what you see as the "lesson" for the dog in doing this? Do you believe that your dog truly understands that growling or snapping at, but not nipping or biting, a child is ok, simply by ushering the child away? A dog's warning signals typically, but not always follow a pretty set process. It starts with body language and maybe a growl, then a snap - air snap usually, but again not always, then a nip or a bite. That progression, or escalation sequence, is pretty common in most cases initially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally happy to agree to disagree. If my dog were to growl at a child, it’s probably my fault for missing signals and not intervening a lot earlier, and I’d far rather have the dog growl than go right to a nip.

I don’t have kids and have two very rigid rules about kids in my house around my dog (stay out of her stuff/crate, and don’t tease her). I straight up will not tolerate kids not following those rules. I don’t really enjoy having kids in my space anyway, and the parents who get repeat invitations are typically the ones who are happy to keep a tight rein on their children, and everyone is safe. Shrug. It works for us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

tc68 said:


> My previous GSD, I could take his food or treats any time I wanted and he was cool with it. Never had any problems with him. He was very gentle/careful with his mouth. The current 8 months old...not at all. I've been bit twice now. He has drawn blood. He growls at me if I don't put his food down fast enough. If I make him wait for it, he goes nuts. If I get too close while he eats, he growls. If I reach for his bowl, forget it, he'll snap at me. I give him bones (or any high value treats) and when I go to take it away from him, he growls and shows his growly face at me.


I counter-condition foster dogs with this behavior to expect good things from me where food is concerned. 

I may even feed them out of my (closed) hand, if it's safe to do so -- part of the meal, and we practice being gentle (I open up a flat hand when they're gentle and even teach them the word "good soft" or "good gentle" as a marker for what's right -- so it _is _useful as it's a way to teach them to patiently wait for the hand to open and not chomp on it). I have sometimes had to wear garden gloves for this until they figure out the "gentle" part. Nobody's ever broken skin though....but I choose which dogs to do this with. Once they learn "gentle," you can use it with treats, toys, etc. and they should soften up and transfer the idea beyond the handfuls of kibble.

Otherwise, they eat in the crate, with the door closed -- safe and sound without any worries of pesky interference. They deserve a secure, calm place to eat. (That solves the kid problem too...as long as the kids aren't opening the crates and joining the dog in there...)

I also train all my dogs to sit-stay when I have their bowls at feeding time. They go to the bowl when they make eye contact and then get released. Growling would _not_ get rewarded with putting the food down -- none of mine have done that, as we practice NiLIF at meal time. One of mine dances and bounces on the way to her feeding spot but then she dutifully drops into her sit and waits patiently -- she knows that bouncing now is over, and she has to do the right thing to get to go to her bowl quickly...and she wants to go to the bowl quickly. She started out as a jumper who would crash into us when we were carrying the bowls, sending kibble everywhere....so we needed a solution. This is WAY easier than kibble flying everywhere.

When a food-guarding foster is eating in the crate, they should have some peace and security there. No other dogs or people harass them -- period. At most, I randomly walk by and drop in a handful of super-high value meaty treats in -- better than kibble, so me showing up means "JACKPOT" even if it's during a meal -- no talking or fuss about it, I just drop it in and keep walking. They quickly associate me showing up mid-meal to mean "more good stuff."

For toys, we work on leave it -- there's a dozen ways (at least) to teach that, widely available online. "Trade up" can also be useful if they really don't want to let go (so they end up with something better). Proofing the down stay is also a really good way to solve the toy chomping -- they can't get the toy until they're released and your hand is out of the way. During fetch, I trained my most excited ball dog (who was a chomper) to drop the ball in front of me -- if he tries to grab it again after he placed it in front of me, my foot goes on it (possessing it) and he goes into a down-stay. I can then pick up the ball, hold for a bit, release him and throw as his reward.

The issues you're describing are common -- but also pretty fixable. Don't give up! Please don't straddle him while he's eating though, as that very well could make the situation worse.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

tc68 said:


> My previous GSD, I could take his food or treats any time I wanted and he was cool with it. Never had any problems with him. He was very gentle/careful with his mouth. The current 8 months old...not at all. I've been bit twice now. He has drawn blood. He growls at me if I don't put his food down fast enough. If I make him wait for it, he goes nuts. If I get too close while he eats, he growls. If I reach for his bowl, forget it, he'll snap at me. I give him bones (or any high value treats) and when I go to take it away from him, he growls and shows his growly face at me. When I went to reach for his frisbee outside while we were playing, he chomped down on my hand. That one hurt bad. However, there are some things that I can do that makes me think he's not completely gone. I can hold his antler while he's gnawing on it without any problem. In fact he wants me to hold it for him. I can hand feed him, but that doesn't help me/him. I can walk over him and straddle him while he's eating, no problem.
> 
> While I agree with everyone that we shouldn't bother them while they're eating, there are times when you need to take the bowl/food/treat/toys away. If I can't do it without getting my hand all bloody with the possibility of the tendons in my hand being ripped by those sharp teeth, then there's a problem. He's 8 months old now and 80 lbs and I'd like to get this "fixed" before he gets to be full grown.


His behavior will only get worse unless you change some things! Don't wait! Find a good balanced trainer to help you learn how to control your pup! But in the meantime, don't continue to allow him to tell you what to do! He growls at you if you don't put his food down quickly enough? Are you sure he's growling at you and not just being vocal? 

Does he know any commands? Has he had any training at all?

Stop taking stuff from your dog! Once you give it to him, leave him alone to enjoy it without any interference. And again, find a good balanced trainer to help you!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Totally happy to agree to disagree. If my dog were to growl at a child, it’s probably my fault for missing signals and not intervening a lot earlier, and I’d far rather have the dog growl than go right to a nip.
> 
> I don’t have kids and have two very rigid rules about kids in my house around my dog (stay out of her stuff/crate, and don’t tease her). I straight up will not tolerate kids not following those rules. I don’t really enjoy having kids in my space anyway, and the parents who get repeat invitations are typically the ones who are happy to keep a tight rein on their children, and everyone is safe. Shrug. It works for us.
> 
> ...


Ahh, but you conveniently skipped right over the first question. What, in your mind, does the dog learn from you not saying anything to the dog and just ushering away the kid? Do you think your dog understands somehow from that that snapping is okay as long as they don't make contact, but nipping or biting isn't?


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Magwart said:


> I counter-condition foster dogs with this behavior to expect good things from me where food is concerned.
> ...
> 
> Otherwise, they eat in the crate, with the door closed -- safe and sound without any worries of pesky interference. They deserve a secure, calm place to eat. (That solves the kid problem too...as long as the kids aren't opening the crates and joining the dog in there...)


Solves it as long as the dog is in the crate anyway...what happens later on?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

tim_s_adams said:


> Solves it as long as the dog is in the crate anyway...what happens later on?



Why does there have to be a later on? I'm all for feeding dogs in crates if they need some security. Once a human screws them up and creates food guarding, there's no reason that can't simply be their food spot.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Curious if any of you who say make the kids leave the dog alone have kids.

Ever tried cooking dinner in an 8x10 kitchen with a husband, a toddler, a preschooler and a dog? You get off work at 4:30, pick up the kids from daycare, rush home, let the dog out, put the kids stuff away, husband walks in, dog follows, everyone wants attention and you are cooking dinner because it's now 5:45 and you still have baths and bed to deal with. Husband being the helpful sort is riling everyone up, dog is tripping you while you are cooking, food falls on the floor, dog is being helpful sort and toddler brushes past dog enroute to Daddy.

How about breakfast? You have 1.5 hours to get you, two kids and a dog out the door. In your lovely old house you have bedrooms big enough for a bed and maybe a dresser, a bathroom big enough to turn around in, a living room that holds enough seating for all if you cuddle and a kitchen that requires you to close the cupboards if you wish to open the fridge. Dog dish gets wedged in the corner beside the door. You feed the dog and your 6 year old remembers that she has a slip in her backpack for you. She reaches over the dog to grab it.


Most folks who own dogs are not rich, many are paycheque to paycheque, lots of folks live in small or poorly designed older homes, well over half of dogs belong to families, almost 70% of owners surveyed did not own a crate. 

Lets be realistic. How are people supposed to prepare meals while keeping an eye on kids if the kids are in the other room? If the dog isn't fed during the few available hours then when? Sorry but I would rather rely on training and conditioning because accidents happen, toddlers trip and try as they might parents are never perfect.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Why does there have to be a later on? I'm all for feeding dogs in crates if they need some security. Once a human screws them up and creates food guarding, there's no reason that can't simply be their food spot.


I agree fully with this. I know not everyone crate trains their dogs, but they can be such wonderful tools, especially for insecure dogs. No need to faze out eating in a crate if the dog is more comfortable there. Sometimes not putting the pressure to protect themselves/their food makes a world of difference. And I’ve seen that lack of worry carry over into other areas, as well.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Magwart said:


> Why does there have to be a later on? I'm all for feeding dogs in crates if they need some security. Once a human screws them up and creates food guarding, there's no reason that can't simply be their food spot.


I guess I assumed the goal would be to help these dogs get beyond their insecurities...to help them function better in the real world.

But yeah, feed them for the rest of their lives in the crate and you've at least solved the food guarding with kids issue. 

The dog's behavior around kids with respect to toys and any other things of value...maybe not so much.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Can feeding in the crate lead to the crate itself being resource guarded?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Kids should be taught boundaries just as much as dogs. Some of the kids that I see acting out in supermarkets or public are catalysts for provoking good people or good dogs. Children and puppies need boundaries in acceptable social morays established as soon as they can understand and comply( unless their is some disability involved( genetic) ) and I have found that children can be taught acceptable respects for both dogs and supermarkets....the total disregard by children in these instances are not the supermarket’s or the dog’s issues. They are usually the result of parenting or the lack thereof.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Great post sabies ! Really says it all.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Magwart said:


> Why does there have to be a later on? .


Exactly the right question. Dogs are creatures of habit. They like their den. Why do they have to give it up because a human has deemed they should "be past" guarding. I think it was @cliffson1 who stated that resource guarding is a survival instinct. 

I've never had an issue taking something from any dog I've raised. Prying their mouths open to take something. No problem. I can feed my dog outside his crate with no issue and most days do. However, given the choice, he wants to go in there. When he has a treat, he wants to go in there where he can't be bothered. It's not always about insecurity. Sometimes it's just possessiveness. Sometimes it's all about "don't touch my stuff". We have that same instinct. I wouldn't be to kind if someone walked up and stuck their hand in my plate of spaghetti. I don't expect my dog to.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Ahh, but you conveniently skipped right over the first question. What, in your mind, does the dog learn from you not saying anything to the dog and just ushering away the kid? Do you think your dog understands somehow from that that snapping is okay as long as they don't make contact, but nipping or biting isn't?


The theory as I understand it, not taking a side as I’m still on the fence on this one, is punishing a dog for giving warnings of growling & barking doesn’t change the underlying behavior it simply teaches the dog it can’t give warnings. This can lead to a dog jumping straight to biting if it gets pushed too far. 

Basically, you should deal with or manage the underlying issue not teach the dog to not give warnings it’s about to bite.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Nigel said:


> Can feeding in the crate lead to the crate itself being resource guarded?


Yes. And quickly.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

All of you talking about kids bugging dogs and none of you addressing the real life incidents.
My son was snapped at for walking past a dog. Not touching just walking.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Tennessee said:


> The theory as I understand it, not taking a side as I’m still on the fence on this one, is punishing a dog for giving warnings of growling & barking doesn’t change the underlying behavior it simply teaches the dog it can’t give warnings. This can lead to a dog jumping straight to biting if it gets pushed too far.
> 
> Basically, you should deal with or manage the underlying issue not teach the dog to not give warnings it’s about to bite.


I haven't personally seen this. We were outside and a dog we had found a nasty rotting bone from who knows where. I was like shoot he shouldn't have that and went to take it from him, he tried to bite me. My dad saw and got after him and we never had any issues with him resource guarding with people after that. He'd growl at other dogs if they tried and that was fine, whatever he had was his. He learned that was not okay to do to people though, smart as a whip dog that picked up on things quickly. Not to say we went and took things from him for no reason, but if needed we could. 

Just recently I had my dog over at a friend's house and had given her a pig ear. Her roommate came in and left her dog in the house. That dog came over and grabbed the pig ear so I was going to put it away, when I tried to take it from her she tried to bite me. I get that I'm not her person, however that dog is constantly around little kids. What if that kid has a piece of food and drops it and the dog decides it wants it? If the dog tries to pick it up as the dog goes for it that could very easily be a bite. Feeding that dog in a kennel isn't going to solve that, teaching the kids to leave it alone and respect the dog(which I agree with) isn't going to solve it. I teach my dogs not to put teeth on people(obviously if you do IPO and such it's a little different), I agree with teaching them to leave the situation if need be. I also agree with teaching children to respect dogs. 

With my dogs I'd tell them drop it and if they were stubborn can remove what they have. I don't take items from them just to prove a point. I do pet them/brush a hand along their back on occasion while eating or right before and drop treats in their food on occasion so they know people by their food is a good thing.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Sabis mom said:


> All of you talking about kids bugging dogs and none of you addressing the real life incidents.
> My son was snapped at for walking past a dog. Not touching just walking.


I apologize in advance as I did not go back and re-read your comment about this incident. But it was not your dog, correct? I have to think that had that dog been yours, the dog would have been better managed and the incident would not have happened.

I think you have to really understand your own dogs. If you know your dog has a tendency to guard food, or think they may not be ok woth someone walking past while they are eating, you need to not put your dog in that situation. If you want to try to stop the behavior in your own dog and build trust and work on slowly adding good things to a bowl so they don’t feel the need to guard, that’s fine. But you have to keep your dog and others safe in the mean time. It sounds as though the owners of the dog in your particular incident either did not know their dog very well, or perhaps were not good at reading cues while the dog was eating. Of course that incident was not your or your son’s fault. But it could have been prevented had the owners placed the dog in a crate or in a room with a closed door before feeding.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If I had a dog who was not tolerant of possible mishaps in the home regarding kids- my own or visiting toddlers the dog would have to be put away unless supervised. Young toddlers require much repetition mishaps are bound to happen. Feeding is in a very short period of time i Supervise as our chihuahua is not very smart and I want to make sure he minds his manors - with the other dogs during feeding time he eats in his crate. Not only toddlers but People do crazy things. I had a friend over first time meeting the dogs. All were settled and Luna was chewing her bone filled with cheese. My friend bent over grabbed her bone- the reasoning thinking she would want to play fetch. The dogs are tolerable I know this. The house was quiet it was not what I expected nor would not do with dogs that I do not know and really could not understand it but people do whacky things.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Tennessee said:


> The theory as I understand it, not taking a side as I’m still on the fence on this one, is punishing a dog for giving warnings of growling & barking doesn’t change the underlying behavior it simply teaches the dog it can’t give warnings. This can lead to a dog jumping straight to biting if it gets pushed too far.
> 
> Basically, you should deal with or manage the underlying issue not teach the dog to not give warnings it’s about to bite.


Yeah, I'm familiar with the theory. 

Just to avoid any confusion, let me state clearly that *it is always unwise to pressure a dog that is resource guarding anything, food especially! It is an almost sure thing that the dog will bite you! No one here, myself included, is suggesting doing or allowing that! *

Resource guarding is typically a matter of trust. You don't "correct" a dog into trusting you. IT CAN'T BE DONE! You show them they can trust you, and help them get over their anxiety by NOT messing with their food! I know some people here have suggested it's a genetic thing, but from what I've seen in most cases it's a learned behavior due to environment. Though we did have one dog, who had nerves of jello, that could not overcome her resource guarding of food ever...So yeah, we fed her separately and left her alone, poor thing! But with that one exception all of the other dogs myself and my family have owned over the years, 50 and counting, were able to overcome their need to resource guard stuff...any stuff, food included!

Training your dog to either tolerate or get away from a child may help heighten a dog's threshold slightly, but it does not suppress their natural warning signals. The dog will will still growl before biting! And in my life, several dozen kids (family, extended family, and friends), and I can't count how many dogs of all varieties NOT ONE SINGLE CHILD has ever been bitten by any of our dogs! It's a simple matter of teaching them manners. That's it, nothing extreme! Totally doable with the vast majority of dogs, just a matter of teaching - i.e. communicating - the response you want to see. 

And this training seldom requires any stern corrections. Kid gets close to dog, dog growls, negative verbal marker and call the dog away, high praise for compliance. Remove offending child and give back whatever the dog felt the need to growl about. It's not rocket science! And it's not suppressing, it's teaching. Repeat that as needed, and that's usually enough for many dogs to get it.

As stated before though, if one of my dogs chooses to snap at a child instead of moving away, I react STRONGLY and immediately, to let them know - without nagging - that that behavior is unacceptable. Then we move on...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GypsyGhost said:


> I apologize in advance as I did not go back and re-read your comment about this incident. But it was not your dog, correct? I have to think that had that dog been yours, the dog would have been better managed and the incident would not have happened.
> 
> I think you have to really understand your own dogs. If you know your dog has a tendency to guard food, or think they may not be ok woth someone walking past while they are eating, you need to not put your dog in that situation. If you want to try to stop the behavior in your own dog and build trust and work on slowly adding good things to a bowl so they don’t feel the need to guard, that’s fine. But you have to keep your dog and others safe in the mean time. It sounds as though the owners of the dog in your particular incident either did not know their dog very well, or perhaps were not good at reading cues while the dog was eating. Of course that incident was not your or your son’s fault. But it could have been prevented had the owners placed the dog in a crate or in a room with a closed door before feeding.


Definitely NOT my dog, or my house. That action in my house would have resulted in a "come to Jesus" moment! Kids are my line in the sand. You do that more then once and you are toast. It was the very definition of an uncalled for attempt given that the space between them was at least a foot and the dog had clear "escape" routes. He walked behind her, and had I not yanked him sideways she would have connected. 
But that is exactly what I condition against. Because it is unreasonable to expect that kids will not move and dogs will never be within striking distance. 
Bud was defensive about food and toys, rather then risk it we fed him in his crate and he was never allowed toys with the kids around. It was a game, Buds coming out so lets put all the toys up! Had he been going for adoption I would have addressed the issue. In fact had I not been able to provide a home he may have been destroyed, because he was simply too much dog for a pet owner. Because I am NOT an average pet owner it was not an issue for me. 
Average pet owners often have no room for crates, and lack the knowledge to read body language.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'm a little confused as to why some people seem to think that just because a person doesn't mess with their dog/s while they're eating or prefers to feed in a crate, that must mean that they don't do anything to teach their dogs how to behave appropriately towards children. What a bizarre and unfounded assumption. 

Training and management are not mutually exclusive, and when you're talking about safety, especially when children are involved, it's only prudent to do both concurrently. You don't need to pick one and abandon the other, nor should you. And that includes managing both the dogs AND the kids.


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## Malibu (Jul 27, 2017)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> So there seems to be a controversy in the dog world.
> 
> There are those who say that you shouldn’t bother a dog that’s eating at all (like me) and there are those that say you should practice taking a dog’s food away in order to prevent food agression. They also say this because it supposedly will assure your dog that you are the Alpha.
> 
> ...


I personally add treats to my puppies bowl on and off from 8 weeks old. I pet my puppy while they eat. I reach into their bowl while they eat. WHY?? Just for the safety of my grand kids or anyone who gets close while eating. I feel it is part of my job to let my dogs know that nobody is taking away their food and perhaps they may even get something better in the bowl. I have had 8 GSD's and I have never had a dog growl or protect it's food. A couple were very food driven. Just my opinion. :grin2:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'm a little confused as to why some people seem to think that just because a person doesn't mess with their dog/s while they're eating or prefers to feed in a crate, that must mean that they don't do anything to teach their dogs how to behave appropriately towards children. What a bizarre and unfounded assumption.
> 
> Training and management are not mutually exclusive, and when you're talking about safety, especially when children are involved, it's only prudent to do both concurrently. You don't need to pick one and abandon the other, nor should you. And that includes managing both the dogs AND the kids.


I assume you're referring to me with this comment >. 

Statements like the following might tend to steer one's thinking down that path, I admit they did for me:



> I don’t have kids and have two very rigid rules about kids in my house around my dog (stay out of her stuff/crate, and don’t tease her). I straight up will not tolerate kids not following those rules. I don’t really enjoy having kids in my space anyway, and the parents who get repeat invitations are typically the ones who are happy to keep a tight rein on their children, and everyone is safe.


And:



> Regarding an earlier poster punishing for snapping at a child: It seems eminently unwise to punish for giving a warning. It seems a whole lot smarter to go to the child and usher them away from the dog, acknowledge "that was scary, but we need to leave Rex alone when he's eating. Rex let you know he didn't like that, right? Let's go do something else and we can play with Rex when he's done." That way you leave the dog's warning signals intact.


No mention of teaching the dog anything...and in fact quite the opposite, the focus was all directed toward managing the children.

While that may work for someone who only has occasional child visitors, it is, IMHO, poor and even dangerous advice for dog owners with kids...which is why I chose to respond.

On the flip side of this, is how absurd it is to think that teaching a dog manners around kids somehow equates to bullying them into submission, or suppressing their warning signals.

It is all too easy to get wires crossed in these online conversations though, and that's why I tried to clarify my position and the training involved in my previous post...

Nowhere did I ever suggest that not bothering a dog while eating was mutually exclusive from, teaching manners. And at least for me, the two have always gone hand in hand. My sincere apologies if I failed to make that clear enough...

At the end of the day though, kids forget or just become too wrapped up in whatever theyre doing to even be aware of where the dog is...and kids can move quickly! In those instances, it pays great dividends to have trained your dog that kids get a pass!


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Kazel said:


> I haven't personally seen this. We were outside and a dog we had found a nasty rotting bone from who knows where. I was like shoot he shouldn't have that and went to take it from him, he tried to bite me. My dad saw and got after him and we never had any issues with him resource guarding with people after that. He'd growl at other dogs if they tried and that was fine, whatever he had was his. He learned that was not okay to do to people though, smart as a whip dog that picked up on things quickly. Not to say we went and took things from him for no reason, but if needed we could.
> 
> Just recently I had my dog over at a friend's house and had given her a pig ear. Her roommate came in and left her dog in the house. That dog came over and grabbed the pig ear so I was going to put it away, when I tried to take it from her she tried to bite me. I get that I'm not her person, however that dog is constantly around little kids. What if that kid has a piece of food and drops it and the dog decides it wants it? If the dog tries to pick it up as the dog goes for it that could very easily be a bite. Feeding that dog in a kennel isn't going to solve that, teaching the kids to leave it alone and respect the dog(which I agree with) isn't going to solve it. I teach my dogs not to put teeth on people(obviously if you do IPO and such it's a little different), I agree with teaching them to leave the situation if need be. I also agree with teaching children to respect dogs.
> 
> With my dogs I'd tell them drop it and if they were stubborn can remove what they have. I don't take items from them just to prove a point. I do pet them/brush a hand along their back on occasion while eating or right before and drop treats in their food on occasion so they know people by their food is a good thing.


Well to be fair both your examples the dog actually tried to bite you, which is different. 

Snapping at me is where I draw the line as it’s gone from warning to action. Even if it’s one of those obvious “air snaps”, I don’t tolerate it. 

I’ve said earlier how I dealt with my pups food issues when we got him, hand feeding & taking away then giving back improved. Both designed to build trust. 

Which in full disclosure most likely were unnecessary, my pup is extremely food driven and from intenses lines. He won’t work much harder for a piece of steak than he will a piece of kibble. He & his 8 siblings are all like that, feeding time was a war zone for him. He’d most likely have stopped with me after we built trust. 

But for me & my dog specifically, where I really buy into the theory is with strangers. I’m not worried about my kid when he have one as he’ll be older/calmer and he’s very loving and tolerant with “his peeps”, I’m worried about *a kid.* I got him for IPO and personal protection and his personality is suited for that, to put it mildly lol. 

Also like his father, he wags his tail when challenged (haven’t done bite work yet but he does it during tug play). If you know animals his body language says “Danger Will Robinson, Danger!” but his tail is wagging. He’s not going to show the laundry list of warnings or do his best to avoid the issue before he does something so I need all of his warnings in place for ignorant people. 

Continuing that point, it’s not like I just let him growl with no repercussions. I’ll give him a pat and tell him to knock it off. So he knows his reaction wasn’t wrong per se, I’m just telling him everything’s fine and there’s no threat. It’s a multi purpose of finding his limits (and working on them if necessary), telling him it’s okay to give warnings before he acts, and building his trust in my judgment as his handler. 

Of course, as with everything else about dogs. I’m far from the expert so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Aka just go with whatever Jax08, Cliffson1, Muskeg, GypsyGhost etc etc said not me :rofl:


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> I assume you're referring to me with this comment >.
> 
> Statements like the following might tend to steer one's thinking down that path, I admit they did for me:
> 
> ...


For a person who has no children, if they choose to just manage interaction between dogs and kids, and manage it WELL, I can’t argue against that. There are a million ways to own/train/manage your own dog, and if it works for you and you are keeping everyone safe, then well done. If that means feeding a dog in a crate and never thinking beyond that, I’m fine with it. It works. It certainly doesn’t mean that their dog has no manners in my eyes. To me it just means the person has thought enough of their options and chosen the safest one for their situation. There’s nothing wrong with that.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> I assume you're referring to me with this comment >.
> 
> Statements like the following might tend to steer one's thinking down that path, I admit they did for me:
> 
> ...



Tim, I wasn’t giving advice. I was saying what I would do myself and why. Parents are totally free not to like that, but in my hose, where children do not live, this is what would happen. I don’t care what you (g) do with your dog. I can have an opinion about what I think is wise regarding the sequence of warning signals and you can disagree, but I’m not advising anyone. I’m not claiming to advise anyone. I’m totally happy for the two of us to agree to disagree!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Yeah, I'm familiar with the theory.
> 
> Just to avoid any confusion, let me state clearly that *it is always unwise to pressure a dog that is resource guarding anything, food especially! It is an almost sure thing that the dog will bite you! No one here, myself included, is suggesting doing or allowing that! *
> 
> ...


Well, you did ask..... >

I will note that we're getting into that nebulous territory of people disagreeing with each other strongly over things with different definitions to different people. Negative marker like a stern "Nein!" is not really what I think of when I think "punishment".


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Tennessee said:


> Well, you did ask..... >
> 
> 
> 
> I will note that we're getting into that nebulous territory of people disagreeing with each other strongly over things with different definitions to different people. Negative marker like a stern "Nein!" is not really what I think of when I think "punishment".


Please tell me you bark out the “NEIN!” in a German accent. Please.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Tim, I wasn’t giving advice. I was saying what I would do myself and why. Parents are totally free not to like that, but in my hose, where children do not live, this is what would happen. I don’t care what you (g) do with your dog. I can have an opinion about what I think is wise regarding the sequence of warning signals and you can disagree, but I’m not advising anyone. I’m not claiming to advise anyone. I’m totally happy for the two of us to agree to disagree!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's all good @WateryTart, no offense intended or implied on my part! And yes, we can agree to disagree! I was responding in general, not trying to convince you to change your practices!


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Please tell me you bark out the “NEIN!” in a German accent. Please.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course, how else could I expect them to understand me if I don’t pronounce it properly?

Besides it’d be extremely rude to subject them to a butchering of their native tongue at home, that’s supposed to be their safe space.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Tennessee said:


> Well, you did ask..... >
> 
> I will note that we're getting into that nebulous territory of people disagreeing with each other strongly over things with different definitions to different people. Negative marker like a stern "Nein!" is not really what I think of when I think "punishment".


That's funny, I see no question in the post you quoted LOL!

But to clarify, I meant a reaction from me that is WAY beyond any negative verbal marker...and no, I will not describe said correction in detail... 

I don't look at it as being punishment in the sense of being punitive, though for me it's difficult to remain calm when a dog snaps at a child! But it's training...I try very hard to hold no grudge, just a STRONG message, then move on... >


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> That's funny, I see no question in the post you quoted LOL!
> 
> But to clarify, I meant a reaction from me that is WAY beyond any negative verbal marker...and no, I will not describe said correction in detail...
> 
> I don't look at it as being punishment in the sense of being punitive, though for me it's difficult to remain calm when a dog snaps at a child! But it's training...I try very hard to hold no grudge, just a STRONG message, then move on... >


Quote:
Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
Ahh, but you conveniently skipped right over the first question. What, in your mind, does the dog learn from you not saying anything to the dog and just ushering away the kid? Do you think your dog understands somehow from that that snapping is okay as long as they don't make contact, but nipping or biting isn't?

:tongue:


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Tennessee said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by tim_s_adams View Post
> Ahh, but you conveniently skipped right over the first question. What, in your mind, does the dog learn from you not saying anything to the dog and just ushering away the kid? Do you think your dog understands somehow from that that snapping is okay as long as they don't make contact, but nipping or biting isn't?
> 
> :tongue:


Well...are you going to answer it? LOL!


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> His behavior will only get worse unless you change some things! Don't wait! Find a good balanced trainer to help you learn how to control your pup! But in the meantime, don't continue to allow him to tell you what to do! He growls at you if you don't put his food down quickly enough? Are you sure he's growling at you and not just being vocal?
> 
> Does he know any commands? Has he had any training at all?
> 
> Stop taking stuff from your dog! Once you give it to him, leave him alone to enjoy it without any interference. And again, find a good balanced trainer to help you!


Yes, tim, I know the difference between a growl with him showing his teeth and him just being vocal. And yes, he has had some training, not a lot though. I will be contacting a GSD (Shuzthund) trainer to further the training. Hopefully he can help me with some of the other problems I'm having.

So I guess you're in the camp of "don't take things from your dog." I'm not. While I appreciate your point of view, it does me no good. There are times when I need to take things from him for his safety and/or mine and if I can't without being bitten, then there's a real problem. I'm sure you know what 8 months old adolescents are like. They are defiant. While "leave it or drop it" is a work in progress and he probably listens every other time...when he has something of high value he won't listen. I've got two 85yo senior citizens living with me and they aren't that mobile anymore. I have to worry about their safety also. Their memories aren't so good anymore. I can tell them 50 times not to take things away from the dog, they'll still do it because they don't remember as well as they used to. And, have you ever played fetch with a dog and the dog won't give it back to you? I threw a frisbee and he took it to chew it and it was getting shredded. He wasn't spitting the pieces out. He was swallowing them. So at that point I have to take the frisbee away from him. When I got close to get it, he chomped down on my hand. Unacceptable. "Stop taking stuff from your dog"...is not an option. If you've read any of my other postings, I mentioned once that he ate 2 feet of a paracord leash and I had to rush to the emergency hospital to have him induced to vomit. All 2 feet of it came out in big chunks. If I let it go, it would have clogged his system because it would've expanded in his intestines. Then we would've been talking about life or death and thousands of dollars worth of surgery. So I think you should understand by now why I have to be able to take things away from him.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

My dogs all start off eating in their crates. No kids, no other dogs, etc are going to bother them. As they get older, I allow them to eat, one in the kitchen, the other in the living room. 
A few weeks ago my daughter fed then for me. I noticed that she hadn't added water and mentioned that out loud. She went right towards the dog in the kitchen to get the bowl to add water. Poor child, I yelled at her to stop. Then I explained to her how we never touch dog bowls. Do I think either of my dogs would react? No. But I never want them to think their food can be taken away. And children, guests and residents, need to learn how to be around dogs.


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## Scotibs (Jul 8, 2018)

I don’t get this “bothering” a dog while it’s eating. Especially when people say “I wouldn’t like it if someone did that to me!”. Really? Are these the same people that strap an e-collar and pinch collar on? Not that there’s anything wrong with that. UNLESS you start saying “I wouldn’t want someone to put an e-collar on me!”.. I’ve had a dozen dogs and as soon as I get the puppy I nicely pet them around the mouth while they’re eating. I don’t take food, I just give them attention. They get used to your hands and there’s no issue with food aggression. 100% success rate. I’m reading about people saying kids should stay away, I stopped my kid from getting too close, etc... Why have to stop your kids from being around the dog when it’s eating? Why worry about ANYONE being around the dog eating if you can easily solve the problem? You don’t “bother” the dog. It gets it immediately. They usually like the attention or, like mine, is completely indifferent. Again, it’s a positive experience and the dog never cares you’re there. My hand is mixing the food, petting her cheecks, adding food, holding the bowl for her, anything I want. And it’s a non-event. I don’t understand if you can easily, nicely and painlessly remove a bad attribute- you can’t tell me there’s anything good about food aggression- why not? Because it may “bother” the dog? Please.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

tc68 said:


> Yes, tim, I know the difference between a growl with him showing his teeth and him just being vocal. And yes, he has had some training, not a lot though. I will be contacting a GSD (Shuzthund) trainer to further the training. Hopefully he can help me with some of the other problems I'm having.
> 
> So I guess you're in the camp of "don't take things from your dog." I'm not. While I appreciate your point of view, it does me no good. There are times when I need to take things from him for his safety and/or mine and if I can't without being bitten, then there's a real problem. I'm sure you know what 8 months old adolescents are like. They are defiant. While "leave it or drop it" is a work in progress and he probably listens every other time...when he has something of high value he won't listen. I've got two 85yo senior citizens living with me and they aren't that mobile anymore. I have to worry about their safety also. Their memories aren't so good anymore. I can tell them 50 times not to take things away from the dog, they'll still do it because they don't remember as well as they used to. And, have you ever played fetch with a dog and the dog won't give it back to you? I threw a frisbee and he took it to chew it and it was getting shredded. He wasn't spitting the pieces out. He was swallowing them. So at that point I have to take the frisbee away from him. When I got close to get it, he chomped down on my hand. Unacceptable. "Stop taking stuff from your dog"...is not an option. If you've read any of my other postings, I mentioned once that he ate 2 feet of a paracord leash and I had to rush to the emergency hospital to have him induced to vomit. All 2 feet of it came out in big chunks. If I let it go, it would have clogged his system because it would've expanded in his intestines. Then we would've been talking about life or death and thousands of dollars worth of surgery. So I think you should understand by now why I have to be able to take things away from him.


I certainly meant no offense with my questions, my friend. I was just trying to get a better idea of what you're seeing! Given the additional information you provided in this post, I see more clearly that you definitely are in a tough situation! 

What I got from your first post is that you have an adolescent dog who is literally bullying you. Yes, I know what an adolescent dog can be like. But I've never had a dog the snarled and showed his teeth at me for any reason! Adolescent dogs do like to test their boundaries, no question there. But your reaction to that testing is every bit as important as any other thing you might do with your dog! And that's why I recommended getting a good trainer to help you get this dog back under control! You are being bullied! 

And yes, as a rule I don't mess with my dog ever after I've given her something to eat. I don't mess with her food unless I have something more to add...and I have never had any reason to take it from her once I've given it to her.

That being said, I also have very very rarely ever had to physically take something from her mouth that she shouldn't eat or have...And only then when she was a small puppy and didn't yet understand drop it or leave it. Physically taking something away like that can be both challenging and or intimidating to a dog. At 8 months of age I'd sort of expect him to defend himself from that! 

Magwart offered some ideas, like trading toys instead of just trying to take them away,
that might help you. But honestly at this stage, I'd recommend waiting for the trainer to help before implementing any changes, because the dog is not showing you any respect. Trying to implement changes on your own could get you bitten again. So avoid confrontation with your dog and work with a trainer! I don't think any 8 month old dog is "completely gone" or beyond hope. I think he's just a normal adolescent male dog. But the dynamic between you and your dog definitely needs to change! Of course, you already know that, and it sounds like you have a good trainer lined up already, so things will get better! Good Luck! And let us know how it goes with training...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Half the time Shadow won't eat unless I am petting her, or holding her dish, or feeding her by hand. She definitely isn't eating if I am not in the room.
Just sayin'.

I've definitely had lots of dogs and like @Scotibs no fails yet. I opted not to try with Bud out of compassion, not because I thought I couldn't. 
I disagree with denying food, I disagree with taunting with food. If I touch you while you eat, it should not be a big deal. If I walk near you, or bump into you while you eat it should not be a big deal. I am also a huge fan of hand feeding as a bonding exercise. Sabi often slept on the kids while eating, she was bad for taking naps mid meal.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Scotibs said:


> I don’t get this “bothering” a dog while it’s eating. Especially when people say “I wouldn’t like it if someone did that to me!”. Really? Are these the same people that strap an e-collar and pinch collar on? Not that there’s anything wrong with that. UNLESS you start saying “I wouldn’t want someone to put an e-collar on me!”.. I’ve had a dozen dogs and as soon as I get the puppy I nicely pet them around the mouth while they’re eating. I don’t take food, I just give them attention. They get used to your hands and there’s no issue with food aggression. 100% success rate. I’m reading about people saying kids should stay away, I stopped my kid from getting too close, etc... Why have to stop your kids from being around the dog when it’s eating? Why worry about ANYONE being around the dog eating if you can easily solve the problem? You don’t “bother” the dog. It gets it immediately. They usually like the attention or, like mine, is completely indifferent. Again, it’s a positive experience and the dog never cares you’re there. My hand is mixing the food, petting her cheecks, adding food, holding the bowl for her, anything I want. And it’s a non-event. I don’t understand if you can easily, nicely and painlessly remove a bad attribute- you can’t tell me there’s anything good about food aggression- why not? Because it may “bother” the dog? Please.


To each his own. The dogs I took home as adults don't react either if every once in a while I have to remove their bowl to add something to it nor do they react if I walk near them or pat their back while they are eating. I have no problem with hand-feeding itself, I've done it several times when my dogs had been sick and I was encouraging them to eat. However, I do not choose to routinely stick my hands in their bowls or take their bowls away and give them back just to show that I can. It's stupid and I am not going to risk creating problems where none exist. And to answer your question, yes, I have used a prong and a e-collar both before on one or the other of my dogs and I did hold the E-collar against the skin on my arm because I wanted to see what it felt like. The collars were for control and served an legitimate purpose as opposed to monkeying with their food which would have just been a power trip.

And that's the basis for my statement "Somebody might lose a finger or two if they tried that with me" originated. I don't react well to anyone who tries to mess with me just because they think they can.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

tc68 said:


> My previous GSD, I could take his food or treats any time I wanted and he was cool with it. Never had any problems with him. He was very gentle/careful with his mouth. The current 8 months old...not at all. I've been bit twice now. He has drawn blood. He growls at me if I don't put his food down fast enough. If I make him wait for it, he goes nuts. If I get too close while he eats, he growls. If I reach for his bowl, forget it, he'll snap at me. I give him bones (or any high value treats) and when I go to take it away from him, he growls and shows his growly face at me. When I went to reach for his frisbee outside while we were playing, he chomped down on my hand. That one hurt bad. However, there are some things that I can do that makes me think he's not completely gone. I can hold his antler while he's gnawing on it without any problem. In fact he wants me to hold it for him. I can hand feed him, but that doesn't help me/him. I can walk over him and straddle him while he's eating, no problem.
> 
> While I agree with everyone that we shouldn't bother them while they're eating, there are times when you need to take the bowl/food/treat/toys away. If I can't do it without getting my hand all bloody with the possibility of the tendons in my hand being ripped by those sharp teeth, then there's a problem. He's 8 months old now and 80 lbs and I'd like to get this "fixed" before he gets to be full grown.


Do you have a trainer yet? I know a few in MD/VA/PA that can help you.

1. Impulse control.
2. Solid Out.
3. Trust that something better is coming.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Scotibs said:


> I don’t understand if you can easily, nicely and painlessly remove a bad attribute- you can’t tell me there’s anything good about food aggression- why not?


I do easily, nicely, painlessly, prevent food guarding from occurring. Nobody is saying food aggression is okay or shouldn't be addressed. There are better methods with much less potential for negative consequences, that's all. For some dogs it won't matter what you do. For others it will, and instead of stopping resource guarding you can actually make it worse if the issue is handled wrong. It doesn't seem to matter how many different people say it or how they say it, this point just keeps getting missed.


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## Richd (Dec 13, 2013)

The first day I got the two shepherds I got as puppies, I gave them both a high value food item and took it away. They both growled. They both got yelled at in my loudest voice with a light slap. I repeated the process immediately and several times for the next week and after the first scolding they never growled at me. The second week I had other members of the family take the food away also. The first person to try it, other than myself, would get a growl. I would immediately yell and scold. After that I don't think either dog ever growled at anyone in regard to food and both were/are extremely gentle taking food from anyone's hand, especially children. I would test them once a month for the first year and once or twice a year after that. Never a problem. I frequently will give a couple of strokes on the back when eating and it causes 0 reaction. It's so common for dog bites to occur when you mix children, food and dogs, that you have to be proactive and train them to be tolerant as soon as you can. I generally don't use much negative reinforcement but this is an exception. It's so rare I raise my voice with the dogs, that when I do, it makes a major impact, so I save it for the worst infractions.


In regard to showing dominance by taking food away, I think wolf behavior is for the highest ranking wolves to eat their fill first and then it goes down the chain for the leftovers. The Alpha eat's till they're full so no reason to take food from those farther down the line. There's a trainer out of New Zealand that recommends having all the family members take the bowl and pretend to eat from it before putting it down for the dog, for the first couple of months. We did that but I can't say for sure wether it works, but it's easy to do and doesn't seem to hurt anything. If your dog won't tolerate it, you may have pack hierarchy problems that need to be addressed on multiple fronts and not just the isolated issue of feeding. The trainer I'm referring to, calls himself "doggy dan" and he has a couple hundred specific problem oriented videos on his website. Most of his stuff makes sense, some of it's dead wrong. It was worth binge watching for the 3 day $1 trial to get some good tips.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Richd said:


> The first day I got the two shepherds I got as puppies, I gave them both a high value food item and took it away. They both growled. They both got yelled at in my loudest voice with a light slap. I repeated the process immediately and several times for the next week and after the first scolding they never growled at me. The second week I had other members of the family take the food away also. The first person to try it, other than myself, would get a growl. I would immediately yell and scold. After that I don't think either dog ever growled at anyone in regard to food and both were/are extremely gentle taking food from anyone's hand, especially children. I would test them once a month for the first year and once or twice a year after that. Never a problem. I frequently will give a couple of strokes on the back when eating and it causes 0 reaction. It's so common for dog bites to occur when you mix children, food and dogs, that you have to be proactive and train them to be tolerant as soon as you can. I generally don't use much negative reinforcement but this is an exception. It's so rare I raise my voice with the dogs, that when I do, it makes a major impact, so I save it for the worst infractions.
> 
> 
> In regard to showing dominance by taking food away, I think wolf behavior is for the highest ranking wolves to eat their fill first and then it goes down the chain for the leftovers. The Alpha eat's till they're full so no reason to take food from those farther down the line. There's a trainer out of New Zealand that recommends having all the family members take the bowl and pretend to eat from it before putting it down for the dog, for the first couple of months. We did that but I can't say for sure wether it works, but it's easy to do and doesn't seem to hurt anything. If your dog won't tolerate it, you may have pack hierarchy problems that need to be addressed on multiple fronts and not just the isolated issue of feeding. The trainer I'm referring to, calls himself "doggy dan" and he has a couple hundred specific problem oriented videos on his website. Most of his stuff makes sense, some of it's dead wrong. It was worth binge watching for the 3 day $1 trial to get some good tips.


Wow! I've been around dogs most of the past 50 yrs, and believe me I've seen some of the weirdest things "seem" to work in training. But thankfully, knowledge and techniques have come a long way in that time too! What you described doing to your puppies isn't training, per se, it's dominance, it's bullying plain and simple. While in many cases it will work, there will be dogs that will hold a grudge and turn on you in the future when they gain enough maturity and confidence! IMHO, even more importantly, it is totally unnecessary! All anyone needs to do is to show the dog they have no reason to distrust you! That's how you end up with a dog that will literally lay down its own life to protect you or save you from a fire...a partner, not a slave!

Good Luck to you and your puppies! I hope it all works out well...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

tc68 said:


> So I guess you're in the camp of "don't take things from your dog." I'm not. While I appreciate your point of view, it does me no good. There are times when I need to take things from him for his safety and/or mine and if I can't without being bitten, then there's a real problem.


 There is no "don't take things away from your dog" camp. That is a gross misunderstanding of what this thread is about, which is a discussion of how to avoid or prevent resource guarding issues at mealtime. What I, and others, have said is that giving your dog its food, taking it away, and giving it back is not the best way to teach your dog not to resource guard. Hovering over them, sticking your hands in their bowl while they're eating, or pestering them in other ways is not the best way to teach your dog not to resource guard. And that doing so, _may, with some dogs who are already predisposed to guarding issues for whatever reason_, exacerbate the problem rather than alleviate it.

What that doesn't mean is that we never take things away from our dogs, just that we don't do it capriciously, to teach them a lesson, or whatever. When necessary, I take things from my dogs all the time, and they've never growled at me or tried to bite me, not one of the 6 GSDs we've had over the past 22 years. Why? Some of them because that's just not how they're wired, but at least one that I mentioned before I thought had the potential to become a guarder so I worked on establishing a relationship of trust. When I give you a meal, it's yours. I do require a polite sit with eye contact while I set down the bowl, and then release the dog to eat, and when they're puppies I do some hand feeding out of the bowl before giving it to them. Lots and lots of impulse control work. When I give you a bully stick, it's yours. I did make an exception to this recently with Cava (8 months old), she had a salmon NoHide chew for well over an hour and wasn't even halfway through with it so I wanted to put the rest away for later. I tossed a handful of treats on the floor and when she dropped it to get the treats, I picked it up and put it where she couldn't get to it. No big deal. 

Here's a partial list of things I took away from Halo over the years:
*Eyeglasses
TV remotes*
*Potholders* (several)
*Placemats*
*A block of cheddar cheese* in a ziplok bag that she stole off the kitchen counter while I was cutting up treats for nosework class. I didn't even see her take it, I heard the sound of crunching plastic in the living room, and found her laying on the floor chewing it, wagging her tail at me and looking extremely pleased with herself. I walked up to her, pried open her jaws and removed the bag.
*Keefer's bully stick*. Halo would finish hers first and then try to scheme Keef out of his. Sometimes that worked, so we'd go get it from her and give it back to him. No growl, no attempted bite.
*Kitchen knives. *Yep, stolen right off the counter, and I have a photo to prove it. 




> And, have you ever played fetch with a dog and the dog won't give it back to you? I threw a frisbee and he took it to chew it and it was getting shredded. He wasn't spitting the pieces out. He was swallowing them. So at that point I have to take the frisbee away from him. When I got close to get it, he chomped down on my hand. Unacceptable. "Stop taking stuff from your dog"...is not an option. If you've read any of my other postings, I mentioned once that he ate 2 feet of a paracord leash and I had to rush to the emergency hospital to have him induced to vomit. All 2 feet of it came out in big chunks. If I let it go, it would have clogged his system because it would've expanded in his intestines. Then we would've been talking about life or death and thousands of dollars worth of surgery. So I think you should understand by now why I have to be able to take things away from him.



 

I completely agree that it's unacceptable for him to bite you when you take away his frisbee. If this were my dog, I wouldn't be throwing frisbees for him at all. If he's not going to bring it back, if he's going to chew it up and eat the pieces, I'd find another toy. Especially since it's so high value that he's willing to bite you to prevent it from being taken away. High value toys shouldn't be left laying around, you can bring them out to play and then put them away when you're done. I like to work with toys that I can maintain possession of such as balls on a rope, or tug toys. I train them to out before we even start throwing it. Tug, tug, tug, "out", reward with a treat, then tug some more. Or trade one toy for a different toy. Work on outing the ball for a treat, then give back the ball. Rinse, repeat. 

When that's solid, put him on a long line if you're in a large area where he can easily evade you to keep the ball, and if he won't come back with the ball, haul him in. And anything chewable should be put away where he can't reach it, or he should be put away when you're not able to directly supervise and prevent him from getting into stuff.


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## Scotibs (Jul 8, 2018)

I have no problem with e-collars and the like - I was just trying to point out the irony of someone saying they don't want to "bother" a dog eating but don't see a little jolt to the neck as a bother. I feel the potential danger involved with a dog biting or snapping at a child is worth the "bother" (if you can call it that). I don't feel I bothered my GSD. I hardly do it now. Maybe once a week I'll walk by and pet her cheek to make sure we're still good. Also, I never took anything away or made it negative. I just pet her or add food. This topic always interests me because it seems like such a simple thing to prevent and I would've never thought of it as controversial. I read a bit online and it seems I've done some of things recommended without even realizing it. For example - she's always eaten in the middle of the room with us either while we're eating or while we're preparing dinner. So she's used to people around her. Anyway, good luck to all!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Richd said:


> I think wolf behavior is for the highest ranking wolves to eat their fill first and then it goes down the chain for the leftovers.



1. Dogs aren't wolves. They've been domesticated for 10s of thousands of years.


2. Wolves don't do that. What you've heard of "dominance" is mostly wrong -- based on studies in the 1920s through 40s on captive animals, including those who were unrelated to each other. Wild wolf packs are _families -- _mom and dad are the oldest and live with their offspring unless adult males peel off to form their own packs. I've seen most of the pack on a carcass at once in my wolf-watching at Yellowstone. They pack needs to be strong to fend off other invading packs and hunt successfully, so you simply won't see an alpha gorging and leaving only scraps for the rest. They hunt to provide for others, including weaker individuals. Both males and females will regurgitate mouthfuls of food for the very young too and even for adult females who are stuck at the den nursing or defending a litter while the pack is out -- effectively sharing and giving up food, even in times of scarcity. Alpha also wolves don't have to "bully" their pack -- they're incredibly nurturing, family-oriented naturally. They play with their young and may even roll around with them, quite to the contrary of what the alpha-trainers think they do. Yes, they roll for their pups! They're confident enough to play and goof and let the pups jump on top of themselves with them without being "threatened" that their status will be diminished. 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-everything-you-know-about-wolf-packs-is-wrong-502754629#!


My favorite wolf at Yellowstone the last time I was there was an all-black wolf who had had peeled off of his pack and been alone a long time...until he encountered a female with young pups whose mate had been killed. She was having trouble providing for the pups. He adopted them and helped her raise some other sire's pups! He didn't dominate his way into leading a pack -- he was a good provider, had a wonderful sense of humor, was tolerant and doting on the pups, rolling around and being totally silly with them. He and this female eventually emerged as a "power couple" in the valley, producing their own litters, with a strong pack that took territory from his old pack. 



Go to Yellowstone in the deep of winter and watch them for a week, and have your mind blown!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tc68 said:


> I've got two 85yo senior citizens living with me and they aren't that mobile anymore. I have to worry about their safety also. Their memories aren't so good anymore. I can tell them 50 times not to take things away from the dog, they'll still do it because they don't remember as well as they used to.


Remember something here, trainers can't change temperament. My goal to one extent or another is always obedience, but his interactions with the two 85 year olds may be more about management, keeping him out of situations where they could have any confrontations with him. Some dogs are just not going to always be respectful of everyone. Even if you end up successful at taking things from him, that doesn't mean it will ever be safe for them.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Resource guarding, growling, air snaps, warning signs... It all comes down to 2 different temperament types. 

1) I'm scared; you will take my stuff away, touch me or hurt me.

2) this is mine and you can't have it. I will totally fight you for it.

The appropriate response to the same situation is completely opposite depending on which temperament type dog you are dealing with.

Type 1 scaredy cat, I need to make you comfortable with me being there and you need to trust me.

Type 2 knuckle head, don't growl, snap, challenge me because it doesn't work and I'm the boss.

Get it right and it's easy. Get it wrong and it gets much worse.

I feed 3 dogs plus board and trains or fosters without crates or doors or anything but me directing traffic. My 3 know the routine. Lucian gets food first. He follows me until I stop, drops to a down, gets a bowl and waits. Fama is next and does the same. Pud is next, but he doesn't down or wait because he takes longer to eat. Fosters are last and they start by getting a bowl and eating at their will. Later, after they know down, they will down and eat at their will. Eventually they get released to eat with Lucian and Fama.

When Lucian gets done eating (always first) he knows not to bug the other dogs. He waits impatiently until they leave their bowls and then checks them to be sure there's nothing left.

If a foster tries to go after another dog's bowl, I just block them. If they get crazy about it, I block them harder. They have a tendency to listen as I'm "The Guy With the Food." 

The first few days I have a foster, all their food comes through training. 

The thing you need to know is WHY the dog is resource guarding. Then you know HOW to fix it.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> I certainly meant no offense with my questions, my friend. I was just trying to get a better idea of what you're seeing! Given the additional information you provided in this post, I see more clearly that you definitely are in a tough situation!
> 
> What I got from your first post is that you have an adolescent dog who is literally bullying you. Yes, I know what an adolescent dog can be like. But I've never had a dog the snarled and showed his teeth at me for any reason! Adolescent dogs do like to test their boundaries, no question there. But your reaction to that testing is every bit as important as any other thing you might do with your dog! And that's why I recommended getting a good trainer to help you get this dog back under control! You are being bullied!
> 
> ...


tim, sorry I didn't mean to sound like I'm being an ass. It's hard to convey tone in writing. I do appreciate yours and everyone's advice. I do have to provide a little background. When I first brought him home at 8 weeks old, he was eating everything. I mean, everything. Not just chewing and spitting out. He was eating/swallowing. Walking with him was a drag...literally every 10 seconds he would grab something whether it was pebbles, dirt, trash, mulch, bark, poop (anything from deer to other dog's), etc. And every single time, I would have to pry his mouth open to get that rock out, or the deer poop. It was nonstop. I must've done it hundreds of times. So I'm pretty sure that as he's getting older and bigger, he's getting bolder and he's now decided to protect his "things." There was nothing I could do about that when he was small. I had to get that rock out or else he'd have a stomach full of rocks and we're talking about thousands of dollars worth of surgery. I'm pretty sure when I reached into his mouth to get those things out of his mouth has now contributed to his resource guarding. So now he bites back. Most of the time I can still reach into his mouth when he's got something in his mouth that he shouldn't have. There's only the few times like a raw bone, frisbee, and other "high value" toys/treats/food, that I can't get close to him.

Also, I think some of y'all have the wrong idea. I'm not constantly taking his meal away while he's eating. In fact I've never done that with him. I'm just saying that there may be a time when I have to for a safety issue or some legit reason. At that time, I need to know that I won't have my hand torn apart, or other body parts bitten. But right now, when I get close to him when he's eating, he warns me. His lips curl up, then he growls, then he snaps at me.

Most of the tricks that y'all have mentioned...the trading the thing in his mouth for another object/treat, or handfeeding, or making him wait for his meal, or whatever, worked on my previous GSD. He was a much easier dog to train. I lucked out with him. This one, none of those tricks work with him.

And tim, yes, I agree. Sometimes I do feel like I'm being bullied. I do have a trainer lined up. I recently had houseguests for about a month so I didn't have the time to call the trainer. But they just left a couple of days ago and once this flu is gone, I will contact the trainer.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

tc68 said:


> tim_s_adams said:
> 
> 
> > I certainly meant no offense with my questions, my friend. I was just trying to get a better idea of what you're seeing! Given the additional information you provided in this post, I see more clearly that you definitely are in a tough situation!
> ...


Please get to a trainer. LEAVE IT and OUT are pretty important parts of a dog's life. They are easy to train and reinforce.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

tc68 said:


> tim, sorry I didn't mean to sound like I'm being an ass. It's hard to convey tone in writing. I do appreciate yours and everyone's advice. I do have to provide a little background. When I first brought him home at 8 weeks old, he was eating everything. I mean, everything. Not just chewing and spitting out. He was eating/swallowing. Walking with him was a drag...literally every 10 seconds he would grab something whether it was pebbles, dirt, trash, mulch, bark, poop (anything from deer to other dog's), etc. And every single time, I would have to pry his mouth open to get that rock out, or the deer poop. It was nonstop. I must've done it hundreds of times. So I'm pretty sure that as he's getting older and bigger, he's getting bolder and he's now decided to protect his "things." There was nothing I could do about that when he was small. I had to get that rock out or else he'd have a stomach full of rocks and we're talking about thousands of dollars worth of surgery. I'm pretty sure when I reached into his mouth to get those things out of his mouth has now contributed to his resource guarding. So now he bites back. Most of the time I can still reach into his mouth when he's got something in his mouth that he shouldn't have. There's only the few times like a raw bone, frisbee, and other "high value" toys/treats/food, that I can't get close to him.
> 
> Also, I think some of y'all have the wrong idea. I'm not constantly taking his meal away while he's eating. In fact I've never done that with him. I'm just saying that there may be a time when I have to for a safety issue or some legit reason. At that time, I need to know that I won't have my hand torn apart, or other body parts bitten. But right now, when I get close to him when he's eating, he warns me. His lips curl up, then he growls, then he snaps at me.
> 
> ...


I strongly believe that with a bit of help from a good experienced trainer, this stuff you're talking about will be easily resolved! Not that it's easy, it takes a little help for any of us sometimes to see where the problems are... Good for you for reaching out!

And thanks for the response, I wish you and your dog all the best!


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Please get to a trainer. LEAVE IT and OUT are pretty important parts of a dog's life. They are easy to train and reinforce.


Not so easy, David. If it was, I would've been able to do it by now as I was able to with my previous dog. Different dogs...different learning curves and different levels of stubbornness. I haven't been able to solve the problem yet, that's why I'm asking here. This dog got some things really fast. Other things, like stay, drop it, leave it, etc.....not so fast. Maybe y'all are better at it than I or have more time or more experience or have smarter dogs....I don't know. But I'm trying and I've tried. And now, I've resorted to getting a GSD specific trainer to solve a few problems/issues I'm having....something I was able to do and solve on my own with the old dog.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> There is no "don't take things away from your dog" camp. That is a gross misunderstanding of what this thread is about, which is a discussion of how to avoid or prevent resource guarding issues at mealtime. What I, and others, have said is that giving your dog its food, taking it away, and giving it back is not the best way to teach your dog not to resource guard. Hovering over them, sticking your hands in their bowl while they're eating, or pestering them in other ways is not the best way to teach your dog not to resource guard. And that doing so, _may, with some dogs who are already predisposed to guarding issues for whatever reason_, exacerbate the problem rather than alleviate it.
> 
> What that doesn't mean is that we never take things away from our dogs, just that we don't do it capriciously, to teach them a lesson, or whatever. When necessary, I take things from my dogs all the time, and they've never growled at me or tried to bite me, not one of the 6 GSDs we've had over the past 22 years. Why? Some of them because that's just not how they're wired, but at least one that I mentioned before I thought had the potential to become a guarder so I worked on establishing a relationship of trust. When I give you a meal, it's yours. I do require a polite sit with eye contact while I set down the bowl, and then release the dog to eat, and when they're puppies I do some hand feeding out of the bowl before giving it to them. Lots and lots of impulse control work. When I give you a bully stick, it's yours. I did make an exception to this recently with Cava (8 months old), she had a salmon NoHide chew for well over an hour and wasn't even halfway through with it so I wanted to put the rest away for later. I tossed a handful of treats on the floor and when she dropped it to get the treats, I picked it up and put it where she couldn't get to it. No big deal.
> 
> ...


Thanks Cassidy. I appreciate your advice. Like I said many times already, I'm not taking his meals from him constantly. In fact, I haven't yet. I said I came close to him while eating and he growled at me. When he bit me, it was me putting his food down. I'm not teasing him with his food. I'm not taking his food away. All I'm saying is if I had to do it for some reason, I don't want to be bitten. I was able to with the previous dog and not with this one. So this is new to me.


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

tc68, where in MD do you live? 

I don't want to toot my own trainer's horn, but Tecla Walton has experience with aggressive dogs and resource guarding. She's a relatively balanced trainer with working dog experience located in Elkridge/Ellicott City, MD.

A lot of the stuff on her website is streamlined towards the average pet owner, but if you send an inquiry for a private lesson, she should be able to provide some advice or point you to a different trainer if it's not something she thinks she can help with.

I do see you mentioned you have a trainer lined up, though. I hope they can help with this issue.

P.S. If anyone has had bad experience with Tecla, I apologise. I haven't and from my time with her, she seems like a very knowledgeable person.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Katsugsd said:


> tc68, where in MD do you live?
> 
> I don't want to toot my own trainer's horn, but Tecla Walton has experience with aggressive dogs and resource guarding. She's a relatively balanced trainer with working dog experience located in Elkridge/Ellicott City, MD.
> 
> ...


Thanks Katsu. I really appreciate it. I'm outside of DC. Ellicott City and Elkridge (just outside of Baltimore) are a little too far of a drive. But I'll keep her in mind. I just browsed through her website. She looks good. If I really have to...I'll make the drive. But as of now, I got someone closer. He trains dogs for Shutzhund. One of his trainees is my pup's father. And my breeder also recommended him.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tc68 said:


> Thanks Cassidy. I appreciate your advice. Like I said many times already, I'm not taking his meals from him constantly. In fact, I haven't yet. I said I came close to him while eating and he growled at me. When he bit me, it was me putting his food down. I'm not teasing him with his food. I'm not taking his food away. All I'm saying is if I had to do it for some reason, I don't want to be bitten. I was able to with the previous dog and not with this one. So this is new to me.


I want to make sure you aren't missing Debbie's point tc. Forget about what worked with your other dog. Some dogs, its a crucial difference between you taking, and them giving. And I think that's the difference here. Some dogs, eating is survival. Its a strong drive in them. There's no sense at all in thinking your going to change their perception of what a meal means by sitting next to them or touching them, but that same dog can be trained to give you anything once you aren't fighting him over it, like the frisbee. Things come in different degrees with temperaments, one of mine eats just like this:





You aren't going to take his food.


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## MOzak (Aug 21, 2018)

I wouldn’t bother an animal eating. However I do expect to be able to work in and around the dog without getting growled at etc. I rarely need to, but for me it’s all about being able to do something if I need to, not doing something for the sake of it.
I am lucky I have enough space to feed my dogs away from each other and the main thoroughfare of the house, so I rarely need to be around them while they eat. 
I have the same rules with all my animals incidently not just the dogs. My horse gets peace to eat too.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

There's a lot of posts here so I didn't have time to read them all, but just my two cents if you ever go near your dogs food bowl, or his bone while he is still a puppy always GIVE not take. I've always done this and never had a food aggressive dog. When I approach he expects more goodies and eagerly waits for my hand. It's an important thing to train in case if he accidentally goes to ingest something he shouldn't be. I also give very large meat bones and if he ate the entire thing in one sitting it could give him diarrhea, so after 30 minutes I must take away his partially un eaten bone. As soon as I start walking towards it he jumps up and runs to his "place" awaiting a treat ?. So much of dog training is based on a mutual trust and respect.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

tc68 said:


> Thanks Cassidy. I appreciate your advice. Like I said many times already, I'm not taking his meals from him constantly. In fact, I haven't yet. I said I came close to him while eating and he growled at me. When he bit me, it was me putting his food down.


Have you done any impulse control exercises with him yet? One of the things I do right from the beginning is require a polite sit when I set the food bowl down. The more food driven he is, the faster he should figure out what works to get his meals. With a new puppy I release to eat as soon as I set it down, but work up to waiting for the dog to look _away_ from the food and make eye contact with me before I'll release to eat. If the dog breaks before I've said "okay", I simply pick the bowl back up and wait for a sit again. Over and over, as many times as necessary. This is Halo at 14 weeks old waiting to be released to eat with her food bowl on the floor (please ignore my ugly garage):










Requiring sits or downs with eye contact routinely around the house for everything you can think of is a good idea too. And NILIF (nothing in life is free) - do something for me first and I'll let you do or have something you want. It's about controlling the resources and also about making the dog offer deference behaviors, to ask politely rather than demanding. My dogs know what I expect from them, so they'll do a sit and watch without me having to ask, although in the beginning I'll cue as necessary. Eventually, this becomes a default behavior, something they do automatically if I haven't told them to do anything in particular. Cava is 8-1/2 months old and already has an amazing default "down" because it's been heavily reinforced, and her eye contact was way better than any dog in either of the two five week obedience classes we've taken together. Eye contact has also been heavily reinforced since we got her at 4-1/2 months old. 

Rather than thinking of your dog as stubborn think of him as not yet understanding what your expectations are, and how you can be clearer and/or more consistent to help him succeed. How can you reinforce the behavior you want so he does it more frequently? 



Steve Strom said:


> I want to make sure you aren't missing Debbie's point tc. Forget about what worked with your other dog. *Some dogs, its a crucial difference between you taking, and them giving. And I think that's the difference here.*


Yes, exactly. One thing I did with Halo too, was to teach her to bring me things, which I would exchange for a treat. Her toys, a ball, a nylabone. After I told her what a good girl she was and gave her a treat, I'd give back the item. So when she had something she wasn't supposed to have, she'd bring me that too. I'd thank her, reward her, and put it away. It's SO much better than having to chase your dog around the house while they play the keep away game! With the cheese, I knew she wasn't going to bring that to me and I knew she wasn't going to give it up voluntarily, so I did just go to her and take it. But because that kind of thing may have happened once for every couple dozen times she brought me something and got it back again, and she clearly knew she wasn't supposed to have it (I was RIGHT THERE and didn't even notice, so she was super sneaky about it, lol) all she did was clamp her jaws shut, she didn't fight me when I took it out of her mouth.


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## Tennessee (Apr 13, 2017)

Magwart said:


> 1. Dogs aren't wolves. They've been domesticated for 10s of thousands of years.
> 
> 
> 2. Wolves don't do that. What you've heard of "dominance" is mostly wrong -- based on studies in the 1920s through 40s on captive animals, including those who were unrelated to each other. Wild wolf packs are _families -- _mom and dad are the oldest and live with their offspring unless adult males peel off to form their own packs. I've seen most of the pack on a carcass at once in my wolf-watching at Yellowstone. They pack needs to be strong to fend off other invading packs and hunt successfully, so you simply won't see an alpha gorging and leaving only scraps for the rest. They hunt to provide for others, including weaker individuals. Both males and females will regurgitate mouthfuls of food for the very young too and even for adult females who are stuck at the den nursing or defending a litter while the pack is out -- effectively sharing and giving up food, even in times of scarcity. Alpha also wolves don't have to "bully" their pack -- they're incredibly nurturing, family-oriented naturally. They play with their young and may even roll around with them, quite to the contrary of what the alpha-trainers think they do. Yes, they roll for their pups! They're confident enough to play and goof and let the pups jump on top of themselves with them without being "threatened" that their status will be diminished.
> ...


Thank you for putting that so eloquently :smile2:


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> I want to make sure you aren't missing Debbie's point tc. Forget about what worked with your other dog. Some dogs, its a crucial difference between you taking, and them giving. And I think that's the difference here. Some dogs, eating is survival. Its a strong drive in them. There's no sense at all in thinking your going to change their perception of what a meal means by sitting next to them or touching them, but that same dog can be trained to give you anything once you aren't fighting him over it, like the frisbee. Things come in different degrees with temperaments, one of mine eats just like this:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il2_SHS9B7Y
> 
> You aren't going to take his food.


Thanks Steve. You brought up points that I didn't consider before...that eating is survival and it's a strong drive for some dogs. I can hand feed him if I wanted, but I don't know if that really helps or not. And if it does, how long do I do it for? A week? A month? A year?

I know I know. Different dogs, different personalities. I keep going back to the previous dog, because he's the only point of reference I have, and that I was so successful with him. That's why I'm stumped with this one right now.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

"I can hand feed him if I wanted, but I don't know if that really helps or not. And if it does, how long do I do it for? A week? A month? A year?"

Something I've learned if you see progress after ample time you keep it up till you get where you need to be. Sorry if that's not good advice in this scenario. Just something I've noticed to be true for me. Working with the dog in front of you.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

tc68 said:


> Thanks Steve. You brought up points that I didn't consider before...that eating is survival and it's a strong drive for some dogs. I can hand feed him if I wanted, but I don't know if that really helps or not. And if it does, how long do I do it for? A week? A month? A year?
> 
> I know I know. Different dogs, different personalities. I keep going back to the previous dog, because he's the only point of reference I have, and that I was so successful with him. That's why I'm stumped with this one right now.


 @tc68....thepoint Steve makes is critical! In THIS breed there are so many different temperaments and types. This is result of creation of breed being from four different type of Shepherd dogs. Having said that, advice generated from one’s personal dog, or one’s personally owned DOGS, or even dogs of the same lines, often is insufficient to address a different dog or dogs from different lines. 
Ex: I have trained countless dogs ( German Shepherds) over the years, and I unequivocally use different approaches to training or issues depending on the type of dog in front of me. Certain dogs are very biddable and respond to basic approaches...other dogs with more drive, or more dominance, or softer temperament; the same approach will create more problems than fix. Aggression can be the result of many causes, from genetic, to fear, to dominance, to nurture, to inexperienced owner, to combinations of all of the above. No one solution will work in all these cases. It can be triggered by many causes also. And lastly, the skill and consistency of the person attempting the solutions that may be suggested here, is of critical importanceas to whether they will be successful.
For this and many other reasons, I recommend to people to let the dog eat in peace.....sure some dogs don’t mind, and some people are skilled enough to change difficult dogs that react to people while eating.....but for the overwhelming majority of folks and dogs, if you let them eat in peace there are no issues.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I do rarely do random acts of food love. Where I will walk by and toss something way better into the bowl. That only works if the dog is pretty cool with you being at whatever distance it takes to do that. My dogs don't care if I go near their food so when they are young I do typically walk up and put a bit of cheese or something into the bowl from time to time. So they have that basic association that if I reach under while they are eating that it is to give a nice thing, not take away. And it has to be balanced to be sure it is done rarely and with high enough value treats that it is 100% positive.

Whenever I have to take something desirable away from my dogs I try to trade up for something better. Sometimes I have nothing and they get nothing. But most often if I take they get something.

I think people think messing with dogs while they eat works because many dogs won't guard food anyway and so people who are messing with the food and have the dog grow up not guarding sees that as proof it works. I say that dog would not have guarded regardless.

I had a guarder. He was not fearful. He also didnt really want to fight. If you acted confrontational with him he would totally go there. In a scary way. But thr good news was if you would just respectfully ask him to try something different he was willing to do that. He was willing and I'd even say happy to learn to stop guarding by reward only. Adopted as an adult and came as a guarder. My husband had it in his head to show him who was boss which led up to a pretty scary moment but happily I intervened and we all changed our approach and nothing like that ever happened again.

Who cares about wolves I say. Watch wild animals eat and there is often snarling and posturing and so on. My group of dogs are not wild animals and I do not want snarling in my kitchen so I am set up so that everyone has a spot to eat and no one is released until everyone is done and my older male's bowl is up because he doesnt like other dogs rushing in to get his empty bowl and I don't like tension brewing over something stupid like an empty bowl so I just pick it up before everyone gets released. Problem solved.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tc68 said:


> Thanks Steve. You brought up points that I didn't consider before...that eating is survival and it's a strong drive for some dogs. I can hand feed him if I wanted, but I don't know if that really helps or not. And if it does, how long do I do it for? A week? A month? A year?
> 
> I know I know. Different dogs, different personalities. I keep going back to the previous dog, because he's the only point of reference I have, and that I was so successful with him. That's why I'm stumped with this one right now.


The only thing close to hand feeding I ever do, is to reward with food for obedience. There's no set timeline for anything. Whatever you're training or working on, focus on the correct behavior, not how long it takes. We've owned different breeds over the years, and we've owned 3 Shepherds. Some breeds, you can just make them do things. Some Shepherds, you can make them do some things. And then you get one that aren't going to make do anything. If he thinks its his idea, its going to be 100% more reliable than anything you made the other dogs do.

Thats a really broad, general statement because temperament is a lot of different pieces and you don't get only a certain amount of this or that, but it sounds like you have a dog now that you don't want to pick fights with. You want to be smart, consistent, and fair in his mind.


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## Scotibs (Jul 8, 2018)

Yesterday I put my 11 month old in her crate with a Kong full of peanut butter when I realized I left her harness on. While she was going to town on the Kong, I crawled into the crate and removed the harness. She lifted her head for me to pull it over her snout and I kissed her on the cheek. She went back to eating and I left. I didn’t think twice about what happened until I started reading this thread and realized some of the people here wouldn’t have been able to do that. Just an example of a real life everyday occurrence where no food aggression makes things simple.

I really feel that if you have a puppy, you should simply just pet them around the mouth while they eat. Not the entire time they eat. Just for a few seconds. That’s it. That’s all I ever did with every dog I’ve ever had and its worked fine. I don’t take anything away. I don’t necessarily give anything. Just pet around the mouth, move the food around for a few seconds while they’re eating and then leave them alone to finish. Oh, and I also feed them in the middle of the kitchen while we’re preparing dinner so they’re used to people around while they eat. This is how we raised our dogs as kids and I’ve just done it this way my entire life. 

I don’t know how I would handle an older adopted dog with food aggression. I’ll leave that to the experts. I’ve always gotten puppies that really didn’t have any food aggression from the start.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't look at it as something so specific like that Scotibs. Its more an overall challenging of the dog, or setting up competitions over things. Its not so narrow as petting while feeding means no food aggression. I'm not any more an expert then you, but I know if you create conflict in one thing, its usually going to show in other things too.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't look at it as something so specific like that Scotibs.* Its more an overall challenging of the dog,* or setting up competitions over things. Its not so narrow as petting while feeding means no food aggression. I'm not any more an expert then you, but I know if you create conflict in one thing, its usually going to show in other things too.


I think that is my whole thing. I set the dogs up so that there is no challenge. It's a method of conditioning that teaches them that at no point will I deny the food, so there is no need to quarrel over it.
I brought home a rescue that ate like the dogs in the video. I spent months feeding her in a closed room with me while I read a book. She snarled and even lunged while I just kept putting each portion of her meal in her dish. Six months later she was happily laying beside me eating out of my hand. She lives now with her family and has never reverted to her previous behavior. I will admit that for the first while I wore a welding glove. Safety first.
Some dogs maybe are unfixable, but I haven't met one yet. It just requires the ability to see the dog in front of you and adjust methods and plans to suit.
The few times that I had to remove hazards from Bud it was a non issue because I trained him to drop it and leave it using reward. I left him alone because he was afraid to eat when I got him and that just seemed like something I did not want to mess with. Compassion. No living thing should be afraid to eat.
I believe firmly in pick your battles because with some animals once you step into the ring you better have a knock out punch. It has been my experience that if you pick a fight you cannot win it will snowball into a lifelong war.


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

We don't take our dog's food away while eating. But we make them all sit and wait to eat until we sit the bowl down then give the command of "OK".


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

One question that I was going to ask earlier and forgot keeps bugging me. OP, you said you have 2 elderly folks living with you and no matter how many times you tell them not to they forget and still take things away from your dog. Does the dog ever bite them?


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## Scotibs (Jul 8, 2018)

Sabis mom said:


> I think that is my whole thing. I set the dogs up so that there is no challenge. It's a method of conditioning that teaches them that at no point will I deny the food, so there is no need to quarrel over it.
> I brought home a rescue that ate like the dogs in the video. I spent months feeding her in a closed room with me while I read a book. She snarled and even lunged while I just kept putting each portion of her meal in her dish. Six months later she was happily laying beside me eating out of my hand. She lives now with her family and has never reverted to her previous behavior. I will admit that for the first while I wore a welding glove. Safety first.
> Some dogs maybe are unfixable, but I haven't met one yet. It just requires the ability to see the dog in front of you and adjust methods and plans to suit.
> The few times that I had to remove hazards from Bud it was a non issue because I trained him to drop it and leave it using reward. I left him alone because he was afraid to eat when I got him and that just seemed like something I did not want to mess with. Compassion. No living thing should be afraid to eat.
> I believe firmly in pick your battles because with some animals once you step into the ring you better have a knock out punch. It has been my experience that if you pick a fight you cannot win it will snowball into a lifelong war.


I commend you for working hard with your rescue. Like I said, my experience is limited to my puppies and I would be at a loss on how to deal with an adult like this. Great job!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Scotibs said:


> I really feel that if you have a puppy, you should simply just pet them around the mouth while they eat.


I'm curious - why do you feel that way? Where did you get this idea from originally? I've never heard of it before and don't see any benefit to it personally.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

When I was feeding different foods I'd occasionally mix them up and set the bowl down with the wrong dog. If I caught the error quickly I'd snatch it back up and sort it out properly without issue. If I didn't notice right away it was too late and half gone anyways so why bother. Ranger can't have beef or he'll get the serious runs so I may still grab his and hopefully curb some of that. Mine can all eat in close proximity and we (kids included) can take high value things away if needed, otherwise we just leave well enough alone.


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## Scotibs (Jul 8, 2018)

> I'm curious - why do you feel that way?


 Because it eliminates food aggression. 


> Where did you get this idea from originally?


 My parents always had us do it when we got a dog and I’ve continued doing it with a 100% success rate (no food aggression)


> I've never heard of it before and don't see any benefit to it personally.


 Glad I could enlighten you and eliminating food aggression is a huge benefit.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Scotibs said:


> > I'm curious - why do you feel that way?
> 
> 
> Because it eliminates food aggression.
> ...


Correlation is not causation


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> @tc68....thepoint Steve makes is critical! In THIS breed there are so many different temperaments and types. This is result of creation of breed being from four different type of Shepherd dogs. Having said that, advice generated from one’s personal dog, or one’s personally owned DOGS, or even dogs of the same lines, often is insufficient to address a different dog or dogs from different lines.
> Ex: I have trained countless dogs ( German Shepherds) over the years, and I unequivocally use different approaches to training or issues depending on the type of dog in front of me. Certain dogs are very biddable and respond to basic approaches...other dogs with more drive, or more dominance, or softer temperament; the same approach will create more problems than fix. Aggression can be the result of many causes, from genetic, to fear, to dominance, to nurture, to inexperienced owner, to combinations of all of the above. No one solution will work in all these cases. It can be triggered by many causes also. And lastly, the skill and consistency of the person attempting the solutions that may be suggested here, is of critical importanceas to whether they will be successful.
> For this and many other reasons, I recommend to people to let the dog eat in peace.....sure some dogs don’t mind, and some people are skilled enough to change difficult dogs that react to people while eating.....but for the overwhelming majority of folks and dogs, if you let them eat in peace there are no issues.


ok. got it. thanks cliffson


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## Scotibs (Jul 8, 2018)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Scotibs said:
> 
> 
> > > I'm curious - why do you feel that way?
> ...


Um, really? It’s training. You’re teaching the animal it’s ok for your hands to be near their food. That it’s ok for people to be around. Over a dozen dogs and 100% success. Really? I’m just trying to help. You don’t have to take my advise, but you don’t have to be dismissive and disrespectful either.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I haven't read every post on this thread, I've read a bunch and some are good and common sense. 

Here is my view on "bothering dogs when they eat." First question is why? I do not like people touching my food when I eat or trying to take food from me. I also would not want anyone putting their fingers near my mouth when I am eating. Why would I expect anything less from my dogs. 

With that said, I do want to be able to take things away from my dogs that they shouldn't have. For example, a cooked chicken bone or a possum. I teach my dogs an "out" command from puppies, which basically means drop what is in your mouth. I teach this mainly because it will correlate to letting go of people down the road. Whether in sport or real life work, I want my dogs in an excited, highly driven state to "drop" or out what ever is in their mouth. 

When I fed kibble with my puppies or dogs, (I haven't fed dry food in about 13 years) I would place cheese or hot dogs in the dog's bowl while it was eating. I was offering something of higher value to the dog when my hand went near it's bowl. My hands are always viewed as a positive thing. I place great treats in the bowl and only pet and praise with my hands, I do not hit dogs. 

Fast forward to about 13 years ago and a switch to a raw diet and very strong dogs with real aggression. You can not offer a dog a higher value treat than a chicken quarter. My last make GSD had no handler aggression, and in reality was a very serious strong and aggressive dog. The dog had about a dozen or more real bites on some serious bad guys, even while being kicked and punched. I really respected and loved that dog. As strong and mean as he could be he had virtually zero handler aggression. I never saw a need to test my dominance or do other silly things like stick my hand in his food bowl. To be very clear, IMHO putting your hand in your dogs food bowl is silly. Bothering a dog while it is eating is annoying at best. I'd worry more about bloat than getting bit. 

One night I had to get the chicken quarter that Boomer was eating from him. I forget the exact reason, he broke his sit stay or I put the wrong bowl down in front of him. It doesn't matter, he was eating the chicken quarter and I went to get it. I heard a growl and knew I was running the risk of getting seriously bit. One must understand that in life EGO is a very bad thing. Ego is what makes us do things we wouldn't normally or shouldn't do; then it punishes us when things do not go well. 

Rather than reach into his bowl and try to assert my dominance and authority, I stepped back told him to "out" and "here fuss." When told "out" he immediately dropped the chicken quarter, when told here and Fuss he came and sat by my left side. I then picked up the bowl and went about my business. I got what I wanted and Boomer got praised for doing the right thing. I didn't get bit by a dog that I really did not want to get bit by and it all worked out. 

Bottom line, for me I never put my hands in my dogs food bowl. If I wanted to add something to the bowl and one of my dogs growled I would correct that instantly, and there would be no doubt as to what happened and why. My current Dutch Shepherd is a beast and bit a bunch of handlers prior to me getting him. I do the same thing if I need his bowl for some reason, "Out, Here, Platz." I am not about to put my hands near his bowl and certainly not his mouth. He probably would be fine. But, occasionally I pet him while he is eating and watch his reaction. He definitely tenses up slightly and begins to eat faster. I am very in tune to a dog's body language. What is the point of bothering them while they eat? If you feel it is because you need to assert yourself, be dominant or anything else than your ego has taken over and it's not a good thing. 

Being in charge starts way before you go near your dog's bowl. If you feel there is a need to mess with your dog while it eats, or take it's food just because, then you need to evaluate how you live with and train your dogs. Your missing some key components and the bond, respect and trust is probably not there. 

Let your dog's eat in peace, a good owner has nothing to prove.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think people think messing with dogs while they eat works because many dogs won't guard food anyway and so people who are messing with the food and have the dog grow up not guarding sees that as proof it works. *I say that dog would not have guarded regardless*.


Good point. My dogs share their food. I have no idea if it's because of how they were raised or if guarding food is genetic..who knows? 

I do get pups use to hands being in their dishes or on them (petting) while they eat but I don't tease them with food. (there is a difference) As adults all three eat side by side. Sometimes they switch bowls in the middle of eating, sometimes one finishes first and lays next to another dog waiting for leftovers, sometimes two dogs have their head in the same bowl. It changes from day to day. None of them have issues with food, eating time isn't a big deal or problematic. The older two were free fed for a long time, it was too hard to manage with 3 dogs so I stopped, but that could also explain their behavior.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Scotibs said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > Scotibs said:
> ...


I am honestly not trying to be dismissive or disrespectful.

I disagree with your interpretation of what happened. Plenty of dogs won't guard food whether you try to influence them one way or the other. My opinion is your dogs probably would not have guarded food if you had never done what you did, either.

Plenty of dogs will get irritated after being repetitively bothered while eating, and then develop problems. My understanding of dog training is that desensitization only works if the exposure is overall totally neutral or positive vs being negative. Ultimately desensitization is what you are describing. So the dog would have to start neutral to stay neutral since nothing positive is being added, unless you happen to have such a goofy dog that being petted is more positive than eating a meal.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Actually I sort of have an example of bothering a dog while eating causing a problem. It is between two dogs though. When my white dog was little I used to let him use his bob a lot ball in the ex pen in the living room in the morning. He woke up like a wild thing and "smash a ball" (the kibble dispensing bobble ball) would satisfy his early morning urge to wreck stuff. My Pomeranian was a food fiend and figured out quickly that sometimes pieces of kibble flew out through the ex pen bars so she would chase him around from outside the pen trying to get the pieces that went through the bars. I knew this was a problem but i guess I was too lazy to do anything about it at first.

Eventually he growled at the pom while she was harassing him in the ex pen. That was my wake up call and I think it is a perfect illustration of how this sort of "training" can go wrong. I don't think he ever would have growled at that pom if I had not allowed her to do this stupid thing. So that was the last time we ever did that and I found a place down stairs where he could have his smash a ball and leave the pom upstairs so no more conflict ever brewed. She didn't actually steal his treat ball from him and she couldn't even touch him and it annoyed him enough to start him growling.

I would not say he is prone to guarding food or being aggressive toward other dogs. Just a normal dog who got annoyed. My two shepherds can and do eat stuffed kongs loose together all the time with no problem. I separate them to eat meals. It's just easier and simpler for me. Often enough I also have other people's dogs in my house too so there is no communal eating.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

After reading all of the posts, wish I could say I remember what each person said, but age, haha…

I'm really not seeing that much disagreement/controversy. Some of us want to be sure we (or others) can safely work around our dogs while they eat (me being one of them). Yes, it is best to just leave them to eat in peace and I do almost all of the time, but if there are children or others that cannot understand (my Mom has dementia and is very sneaky in that she is very quiet) then IMHO, at least for me, it was very prudent for me to work with my dogs just to be safe. 

We all found ways that tended to work for us and our particular dogs, or we came here or to someone more experienced to ask for help, yes?

As for the thought that they were neutral already, not so for me. Some were, but definely not all. My ex's dog was bad from the start (puppy) and we got it worked out. The retriever I watched had his family scared almost to even feed him. My girl now is always about food and would attack any animal, at least, that got too close to her food. And while she won't let other animals get into her food dish when she is ready to or is eating, she is fine with dishes inches apart (sometimes that is just where they end up). 

Is it perfect, no. Is life easier because of the efforts I made, yes. I'm sure it is true for others whether it was through working directly with the dog or through separation such as crating. No where do I remember reading that folks though constantly harassing their dogs while eating was a good thing. I think the consensus was to leave them to it unless there was an issue to be addressed. 

If I am incorrect, do set me straight. I always enjoy learning from others and reading other, different opinions especially as they help me expand my knowledge and options.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Scotibs said:


> Because it eliminates food aggression.
> My parents always had us do it when we got a dog and I’ve continued doing it with a 100% success rate (no food aggression)


But there's no evidence that it does eliminate food aggression, regardless of your experience. You got the idea from your parents, where did they get it from? Are they dog trainers? Are they well versed in dog behavior and training? Did they work with a trainer who told them they should be doing it? Is it something they came up with on their own?



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Correlation is not causation


Yes, this is exactly what my question was getting at - just because you've always done it and have never experienced food aggression doesn't mean that what you did prevented it from happening, and that if you hadn't done it your dogs would have become resource guarders. Petting a dog around the mouth while they eat seems, at best, ineffective. At worst, it could very well provoke a bite if you try it with the wrong dog. It's just not something I'd encourage anyone to do.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

If a human doesn't represent themselves as "competition" for a pup's food from day one............then all should be just fine......maybe a pup learns to understand the entity which controls all the resources.....and the human is the "provider".



4 dogs.....3 GSDs,,,,done the same thing from the first day I had them......never a problem.


BUT.....I've seen a person or two screw with my dog's food......and the dog responded accordingly......some might call it resource guarding but I just viewed it as the person pushing the dog too far and fair play regarding the dog's response.......I didn't mind.


It seems more like common sense .......based on where your dog's head is at.




SuperG


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## Katsugsd (Jul 7, 2018)

I have never bothered my dogs while eating unless it was to put more food in the bowl or in the case of Katsu needing supplements in her wet food, lifting the bowl and turning it to allow her to reach better for the mush. A few times when she was teething I had to pick up the soft kibble and hand feed her from the bowl to get her to eat otherwise she'd just stare at it.

I do not understand the "mess with food to prevent resource guarding" theory. 

I do not allow one dog to bother the other if they finish first, so why would I do it?

As many others have said, I would be annoyed if someone was messing with my meal or putting their hands near my mouth while I ate.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> I haven't read every post on this thread, I've read a bunch and some are good and common sense.
> 
> Here is my view on "bothering dogs when they eat." First question is why? I do not like people touching my food when I eat or trying to take food from me. I also would not want anyone putting their fingers near my mouth when I am eating. Why would I expect anything less from my dogs.
> 
> ...


Of all the responses here, this one makes most sense to me.

I have 3 little kids, 2 with autism who do not shine in the following instructions department, I am "that" house for my middle school aged daughter and her friends, the hang house...so it is an important topic for me.

Back when, when the prevailing advice was to hand feed, put higher values in their bowls, I did it. I've never had a food guarding dog (bones, yes) so who knows if it was the method or just the temperament and I strongly suspect the latter since more than one was an adult rescue. 

The way I have done it the last oh, 10 years was leave them alone while eating and rely on a strong leave it and recall for all else in life, and then hopefully it translates to their food if you for some bizarre reason have to call them off it. I don't practice on their food though. Sometimes I forget to drop my dog's tumeric bombs that I make into his food..I can go over and do it and he doesn't even notice. We can walk around him, he doesn't notice. 

I have joint custody of my kids. When the kids are here and I feed him, I lean against the counter and watch him eat to make sure nobody bugs him. It is 5 minutes out of my day twice a day that I feel is way worth it. He is trained to sit and wait for a release before he eats. Once he has earned that the rule is no bothering. 

My kids can walk around with a bag of chips or something and Valor will not bother them. My youngest son sits on the sofa and eats Graham crackers and Valor sits right next to him and it does not occur to him to take his food. I'm not taking credit for that, he is just good that way. When I first got him, if they left food on the table and walked away he would surf it. Took a few corrections and resolved. Today there were pancakes left on the table..it was one of those crazy mornings running late and I ran the kids up to their school bus without crating him. Then the bus was 15 minutes late. Nothing was touched, nothing. 

We just seem to have a natural balance of respect with food here. Again, maybe just lucky. Maybe the having to sit and wait before getting his food from a person translates. He won't even grab it if it is dropped unless I say "ok". 

Ruger however, the little pit mix..who is now largely my BF's dog..IF and only if nobody is looking (totally intentional and planned out) he will steal food from my youngest son, no growling or anything..just more like hopping on them and rooting it out of his hand. That gets a strong correction. They do not take your food, and you do not take theirs. He will steal food from the table too if you are out of the room. It gets a strong correction because it is so intentionally disobedient it is not funny. My youngest son can not speak. The others that can? The minute he sniffs at their food and they go "moooooom" in the tattletale voice he slinks away and quickly. He rarely tries it with them, he more steals it if they look the other way. 

So he intentionally targets the kid with CP who cant tell on him. As much as we should not personify dogs, there is also a LOT going on in their heads that have some human very human qualities lol 

In a nutshell and to answer original question/opinion I am in the don't bother them when eating. At all. Have a strong leave it command for all else, but a meal is a ritualistic thing, it is not the same as finding a dead bird in the woods or something. It is a bonding caregiver thing, a loving care reward, and should be left as such.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Even puppies can bloat. 



Bothering a dog while it is eating may cause no outward reaction, because it is you and they know you put the food there, and that you put good things in the bowl, etc. BUT, it can still be frustrating to a food-motivated dog to have someone playing with their dish or putting their hands by their mouth when they are eating. 



It is simply not a good idea to generate stress about and around the food dish. If you aren't doing this, then when You need to do it because of some type of emergency, the dog will be perfectly fine.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Slamdunc said:


> I haven't read every post on this thread, I've read a bunch and some are good and common sense.
> 
> Here is my view on "bothering dogs when they eat." First question is why? I do not like people touching my food when I eat or trying to take food from me. I also would not want anyone putting their fingers near my mouth when I am eating. Why would I expect anything less from my dogs.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with this approach. The problem is, most pet owners don't really train and proof out, here and platz under distraction and/or with competing motivators like a decoy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I totally agree with this approach. The problem is, most pet owners don't really train and proof out, here and platz under distraction and/or with competing motivators like a decoy.


I'd probably recommend keeping the decoy away from his food too.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> David Winners said:
> 
> 
> > I totally agree with this approach. The problem is, most pet owners don't really train and proof out, here and platz under distraction and/or with competing motivators like a decoy.
> ...


Talk about creating possession lol


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## Pipper (Jul 27, 2018)

Food aggression is common to every dog. It's advisable to control the mealtime within 15 to 20 minutes and take their food away until the next meal. So, you could provide the dog with enough time to eat, and he will not have food aggression. What's more, some dogs are easy to distract from other things during the meal, limiting the mealtime helps him with eating faster. If the owner has at least one dog, it's better to practice "one dog, one food bowl", in case of food aggression. In general, dogs will go to pee/poo after meals, so this method is also a part of potty training or house training.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Well folks, I took the food bowl away mid meal just to see what would happen, no issue other than murph looking at me like I was a bit case. Put it back down and all was well.i know some of you think this is wrong, but it's not wrong for me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My dogs would react the same way. I don't do that, not because I think it's "wrong", I just think it's unnecessary. If I had to for some reason, I would and I could, and that's good enough for me.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol, I put Doc's bowl down this morning and walked away. He ate it and I left him alone. 5 years old , never a problem.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I do not bother my dogs while they are eating, I just don't see the point. I feed raw and was walking outside with a bowl with about 2 1/2 lbs of raw meat and chicken thighs. I walked out in the dark to where Boru was to feed him. The normal routine is I put Boru in a sit and place his bowl on the ground about 10' away from him. I then call him to the "heel position" where he makes eye contact and waits to be released to eat his food. I mentioned this before, but chicken thighs are high value and so is his raw meal. IME, dogs will guard or defend a raw meal stronger than kibble. 

Last night it was dark when I went out with his food bowl, Boru was bouncing and jumped about 7 feet in the air next to me. On his way down he stuck his head in the food bowl and grabbed a chicken thigh with bone and started to eat it. I didn't see him about to do that and he has never done that before. Keep in mind that Boru was very handler aggressive when I got him and the reason I got him was that he bit his 5 previous handlers. Getting toys from him was hard in the beginning with out him redirecting to me or the leash. We've worked all that out and he is an awesome dog. I've called him from his food bowl in the past, when I put the wrong bowl down. this has not been an issue. I wasn't happy to see Boru steal that chicken quarter and starting to swallow it. I immediately verbally corrected him rather sternly and gave him a physical correction. He was swallowing the chicken quarter and I decided to let it go. For two reasons I decided to let it go, first I didn't want him to scoff it down and choke. Second, I prefer to pick my battles and in the dark was not the best time to have a serious physical altercation. Especially since he had no leash and collar. If I was not worried about him choking I would have been far more harsh. I put him in a down and stood there and watch him trying to swallow the chicken thigh or so I thought. If any has fed raw, you know a dog can swallow a whole chicken thigh with bone in about 3 seconds. 

Much to my surprise, he spit it back up whole thigh and laid there looking at me. He had stopped eating the thigh and was trying to spit it out. Once he did I put his food bowl down and called him to the "platz" or heel position. I praised him and released him to eat. I was pleasantly surprised that he elected to "out" the chicken thigh so quickly, lay with it at his feet and leave it to come to my side. In the scheme of things it is really not that big of a deal, but for this dog it kinda is. I have no need, desire or intention to ever mess with his food. I have nothing to prove to my dogs and if I did, it would not be over their food.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

My dogs are ok if I need to take something away from them.If one of them jumped up and tried to scarf down my dinner I would bite them:gsdbeggin::rofl:


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## bigguy (Sep 23, 2018)

Deleted


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nevermind, Lol. Its not offensive at all, Its just part of why I say what I do about leaving them alone when they eat.


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## bigguy (Sep 23, 2018)

Hey, I didn't mean to give that impression. I was more using it as an example and am sorry I ever put it out there. You really have to know your dog in all situations and that only comes after time and care. I meant no harm in my comments. I merely meant I personally in this house with any dog have never had problems with snapping or barking because anyone was playing with food. I will delete the post above if I can. I didn't mean to offend anyone or make the wrong impression.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> My dogs would react the same way. I don't do that, not because I think it's "wrong", I just think it's unnecessary. If I had to for some reason, I would and I could, and that's good enough for me.


My pup is 6 months old. I wanted to see his reaction and if there is/was a problem I would rather deal with it now than when older.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't know. All my dogs were adults when I brought them home. Newlie was between one and two, so I guess still an adult, albeit a young one. I never tried to test them to see if there was a problem with food guarding, I guess I didn't see a need to go looking for trouble. In my experience, trouble usually comes along quick enough as it is without looking for it. I have always left my dogs alone to eat in peace and when I recently posted a video of Rocky sprawled out on his belly eating his supper, somebody commented how relaxed he was. He had no need to guard his food because nobody consistently kept trying to take it away from him. When I've needed to take a bowl away for a good reason, maybe once every year or two, there has been no problem. I am not denying though, that some dogs come into a home with resource guarding behaviors already in place. Mine did not and I did not want to put that idea in their pointy little heads.

Now, it is true that I often walk past my dogs when they are eating and sometimes even pat them on the back as I go by. Never a problem. If a dog objected to being patted while eating, I could stop that, but I would not be willing to walk a mile out of my way to not go past him. My house, my rules. If a dog objected to me being anywhere near him while he was eating, he would be put in a crate or a room by himself.

The only time I thought I had a problem with resource guarding was when I first got Newlie. He was up on my bed and I thought he growled at me when I came in the room. After I got to know him better, I realized that he was just a very vocal dog and all his grumbling didn't mean anything, he was just being silly. In retrospect, I probably overreacted, but I was like "No, you son of a gun, you are not starting that with me, you get OFF that bed and OUT of this room." He did, too, and in a hurry, I guess I was scarier than he was, lol. I closed the door and he laid outside the bedroom and cried all night. Mind you, I am not recommending this course of action to anyone else, with the wrong dog that could mean big trouble. Newlie was a softy, though, and so am I, so we forgave each other and moved on. I miss that big lug.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

on a slightly different note: When they test dogs in the shelters for food aggression by putting that fake hand on a pole into their food bowl, the dog flinches and gets a ding on their behavior. I don't like that test. That fake hand looks weird to me and I know what it is! It might not be food aggression at all but the reaction to the strangeness of the fake arm / hand. When I had my gal-dog in for group obedience classes the instructor brought one out and my dog was all "what the heck is that?" I don't blame her. I am glad that she was exposed to it. Heaven forbid she ever gets mislabeled if she doesn't know how to respond to that odd thing put in her face while trying to eat.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@car2ner did you ever see the scary doll that's used to test how a dog will react to children?I'm sure all of my dogs would be leery of that thing too,lol!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Slamdunc, you are to be commended for the work you have put into building a solid relationship with Boru. I enjoy hearing about him.

As I have stated before, it is not that I believe messing with a dogs food is to be routine. It's simply that I am aware that in busy, cramped households the chances of a toddler or child bumping an eating dog are fairly significant. So I condition against it. I never want a dog that I placed to be THAT dog. To be fair, to the best of my knowledge most of the dogs I place are fed kibble and your points about raw being high value are solid. But I also teach leave it and out and those two commands rank high on my list of priorities. I used to get teased about having the only dogs on the planet that would spit out food.
Rather then creating a competitive dining experience, I work to create an environment where eating is a social event. There may be bumping and jostling but there is always food.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Rather then creating a competitive dining experience, I work to create an environment where eating is a social event. There may be bumping and jostling but there is always food.

I like this!Sounds like our house.Figuring out how to relieve anxiety rather than create it.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

One last perspective on his topic. If you mess with a dog while they are eating you can cause other problems, not guarding.

I did this by accident with one dog. I regret it and I won't make the mistake again. He was actually having some stomach problems and his appetite wasn't great. he isn't and never was really super into food anyway.

In a nutshell he wanted to eat less and I was trying to coax him to eat. At one point it worked and he ate, and then suddenly it backfired big time and he just didn't want to eat. I was making him uncomfortable trying to get him to eat. It didn't result in guarding, it resulted in him not wanting to eat way more

I solved the stomach problems with a minor food change, and then I completely disengaged from him about it, put his bowl down around a corner where we can't even see each other when he eats and that is how he eats to this day. 

Occasionally his still does not finish a meal, he stops I just pick up his bowl and that's that. If he loses a little weight he will get hungry and eat more on his own, if I stay out of it. He maintains fine. He is healthy, sometimes a little leaner than I like but usually when he gets lean like that his appetite then kicks in and he will eat more to make up for it. The important thing is I stay out of it.


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## atomic (Mar 28, 2016)

I never mess with my dogs food while they are eating.

Why?

All three have zero sense of food guarding. In fact each will let the others eat out of their bowls, though I discourage it.


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## bigguy (Sep 23, 2018)

I am going to comment again and try to word it different.


Tonight, Ringo was lying on my bed. I walked into the bedroom and laid on top of him. All he did was kiss me. I can put my face in his bowl and he ignores me. I can get down on the floor with him and wrestle and say "ouch", he will stop playing and lick me trying to help me. I can raise my voice and he will stop what he is doing. This is the type of dog I want, one that is safe and caring and knowledgable which he is. 



I know this may be different if someone else tried to do these things with him but I believe with the character that my dog Ringo holds because of the actions I have taken with him and who he is he would not react the same to these situations as some other dogs would. I believe that you not only have to be a trainer but best friends with your dog. Get close, get down there, be in his world for a bit and he will understand you better. My dog is a fearful dog. He was taken away from his parents at 3 1/2 weeks old. He used to be scared of a lot of things in and out of the house. Not so much now and only after a year and a half of him being here. I think that is pretty good. I can trust him if a kid goes near his food or jumps on him or pulls his ears. I feel safe having people around because of who Ringo is and how much he has learned. Should you bother them while they eat.... That's up to everyone out there who owns any dog. I want people to feel they can bring kids here and all will be well. Sorry if this was a bit long. I hope I explained things a bit better this time.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> One last perspective on his topic. If you mess with a dog while they are eating you can cause other problems, not guarding.
> 
> I did this by accident with one dog. I regret it and I won't make the mistake again. He was actually having some stomach problems and his appetite wasn't great. he isn't and never was really super into food anyway.
> 
> ...


I made this same mistake when Newlie was dying of cancer. I so wanted him to eat because I knew if he didn't, it would be the end, but I finally realized that he was feeling my desperation and that was only making things worse.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have a baby puppy out there in the family with a baby. The mom told me she keeps taking the pup's bones away to ensure that the baby will not get nailed if he touches the bone. 

I told her, "you are creating problems by doing that. If the bones are getting snatched away, then the puppy will be more likely to guard them/be protective of them." 

What I need is a book of situations and how to respond to them in short, non-judgemental, easy to say and easy to hear remarks that will get your point across with the best chance of people taking heed. 

For example, the people get a puppy, and they are all set up to do classes with the puppy. But the kid visits the ER, and now both parents agree, no non-essential spending. Puppy classes go out the window. We need a quick and easy statement that is reasonable, non-judgemental, and will get the puppy and owners the classes they need. Something like, "Puppy classes/ obedience classes are essential for dogs that can disable a full-grown man." That might work better than, "More puppies lose their lives prematurely due to lack of training than any other reason." or, "Most dogs that have landed in shelters have never been taken to classes."


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## Malibu (Jul 27, 2017)

bigguy said:


> I am going to comment again and try to word it different.
> 
> 
> Tonight, Ringo was lying on my bed. I walked into the bedroom and laid on top of him. All he did was kiss me. I can put my face in his bowl and he ignores me. I can get down on the floor with him and wrestle and say "ouch", he will stop playing and lick me trying to help me. I can raise my voice and he will stop what he is doing. This is the type of dog I want, one that is safe and caring and knowledgable which he is.
> ...


LOVE this one... people are taking this topic to extremes if you ask me. I agree with Bigguy. I have NEVER had a dog that would growl when eating period. I may have chose to add extra food or maybe pet them while I commend them for eating, but I truly feel if I never messed with them while eating NOTHING would ever have happened anyway.

I have only had dog's that loved kid's and would never think about growling or protecting anything from my kid's and now my grandkids. Maybe I am just lucky. Maybe I am lucky to have a great breeder.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

This thread came at a good time and a reminder. My oldest son and his gf just got a 8 wk old pup. I went to see the little sweetie and gf mentioned that she was doing the hand in bowl thing. I asked her if he acted aggressively or started to eat faster. She said no, he is really good. so I said why bother him if there isn't an issue.

Don't fix what isn't broken. Otoh, I don't see any issue with every once in a while adding a bit more to the bowl, especially when they are just about finished and realizes that more is being added.

My own guy at 8weeks old snarled at me the first time my hand went near the bowl. I put my hand right in there. He didn't snap at me but he sure scoffed the food down. I figured he must have had to fight for a position at the communal puppy feeding bowl. So for the most part I left him alone but also made sure that I gave extra every so often. It worked like a charm.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Claiming and attempted ownership is exhibited throughout the spectrum of a dog's behaviors.....it's innate and it's certainly not limited to food......I see it no different than a ball/toy.....bone.....resting spot...etc.....but it's all the same with many dogs...precedent is guaranteed to be set and then further established... whether the behavior is dictated by the human or the dog.....the outcome should be fairly obvious based upon the course one takes. I expect a dog to resource guard....if they didn't at any point in their early life....I'd be surprised. 



Those that have established the proper precedent and interaction regarding control of a dog's resources most likely will never have a problem with their dog but unfortunately that "respect" is not a "transferable" right that everybody else gets......


I'll take whatever I choose from my dogs....but I wouldn't advise others to unless I'm there to supervise.




SuperG


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

SuperG said:


> Claiming and attempted ownership is exhibited throughout the spectrum of a dog's behaviors.....it's innate and it's certainly not limited to food......I see it no different than a ball/toy.....bone.....resting spot...etc.....but it's all the same with many dogs...precedent is guaranteed to be set and then further established... whether the behavior is dictated by the human or the dog.....the outcome should be fairly obvious based upon the course one takes. I expect a dog to resource guard....if they didn't at any point in their early life....I'd be surprised.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is EXACTLY why I teach all of my dogs that kids get a pass! I don't ask or expect my dogs not to guard stuff from another adult, but I INSIST that they give small children a pass to do whatever they do... Tolerate it or move away! Period! No other options EVER! Any and all aggression toward a small child is met with severe consequences, immediately and without a second of hesitation. Just what has worked for me, not the holy grail...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> And this is EXACTLY why I teach all of my dogs that kids get a pass! I don't ask or expect my dogs not to guard stuff from another adult, but I INSIST that they give small children a pass to do whatever they do... Tolerate it or move away! Period! No other options EVER! Any and all aggression toward a small child is met with severe consequences, immediately and without a second of hesitation. Just what has worked for me, not the holy grail...


Same rules here, deal with it or leave! Those are the only responses I accept with regards to children. 
Buddy did not enjoy the company of small humans, but the only thing that was really an issue was that he knocked a couple of them down getting away because it was the law in my home and he knew it. I have said before kids are my line in the sand, and that is why I go to great lengths to insure that no dog leaving my house will ever snap at a child.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

SuperG said:


> Those that have established the proper precedent and interaction regarding control of a dog's resources most likely will never have a problem with their dog but unfortunately that "respect" is not a "transferable" right that everybody else gets......
> 
> 
> I'll take whatever I choose from my dogs....but I wouldn't advise others to unless I'm there to supervise.
> ...


And that point, right there G, is why I'll never recommend that people play with their dogs food and tell others it will make their dog kid safe. Someone wants to poke around in their bowl, go ahead. Don't tell someone else with a dog you really don't know that its going to create some level of acceptance they may not have in their temperament. Feed the dog away from the kids, out of the normal traffic of the house, and it will never be a problem with any dog. They don't have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the kitchen, they don't have to eat there either.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> And that point, right there G, is why I'll never recommend that people play with their dogs food and tell others it will make their dog kid safe. Someone wants to poke around in their bowl, go ahead. Don't tell someone else with a dog you really don't know that its going to create some level of acceptance they may not have in their temperament. Feed the dog away from the kids, out of the normal traffic of the house, and it will never be a problem with any dog. They don't have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the kitchen, they don't have to eat there either.


THIS! :thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The "respect" isn't transferable, but, the idea in the dog's brain that if they don't be careful someone is going to snag away their bone IS transferable. And that is why I am trying to tell that lady, short and sweet, but convincingly not to create the issue.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> The "respect" isn't transferable, but, the idea in the dog's brain that if they don't be careful someone is going to snag away their bone IS transferable. And that is why I am trying to tell that lady, short and sweet, but convincingly not to create the issue.


Unfortunately in this case this lady very likely will get what you said, but it's also very likely it'll be her child getting bitten that really gets your point through to her. I can only imagine how hard it must be to know that and still not be able to convince her!

Would puppy obedience classes help in this situation? I mean, it couldn't hurt, but it seems like an issue that's outside of the purview of a puppy class...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> Unfortunately in this case this lady very likely will get what you said, but it's also very likely it'll be her child getting bitten that really gets your point through to her. I can only imagine how hard it must be to know that and still not be able to convince her!
> 
> Would puppy obedience classes help in this situation? I mean, it couldn't hurt, but it seems like an issue that's outside of the purview of a puppy class...


Yes, it can, because when people are enrolled in a good puppy class (I gave them a good trainer's information), they can ask their questions about things that are coming up with their puppies. 

BUT, the kid went to the ER and now Mom and Dad have to cut out all unnecessary spending because they have this bill. And puppy classes fall into the category of unnecessary spending. I want to smack them. Sorry, but I do. I gave them the puppy suggesting they pay for insurance because she was half the size of the other puppies at 8 weeks old. 5 pounds at 7 weeks, where the rest were 10 pounds. It was a huge litter. The vet gave her a clean bill of health, but I would have bought insurance for this one because she has a better than average chance of having issues. Also, they could not afford my price, so they can't afford a formidable vet bill either, buy the insurance. Not rocket science. They have a 1 year old boy and a dog that will probably be 60 pounds before the kid is 2. They NEED puppy training classes. 

I am afraid I made a big mistake. The husband LOVES the puppy though. Maybe it will be ok. She comes from good stock.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> And that point, right there G, is why I'll never recommend that people play with their dogs food and tell others it will make their dog kid safe. Someone wants to poke around in their bowl, go ahead. Don't tell someone else with a dog you really don't know that its going to create some level of acceptance they may not have in their temperament. Feed the dog away from the kids, out of the normal traffic of the house, and it will never be a problem with any dog. They don't have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the kitchen, they don't have to eat there either.



Ya know Steve.....I've learned many a lesson the hard way...... experience is a great teacher......but....I'd of rather avoided experience as the teacher and learned the lesson from those wiser than me......especially in negative situations.



You make great sense in your words above.








SuperG


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> And that point, right there G, is why I'll never recommend that people play with their dogs food and tell others it will make their dog kid safe. Someone wants to poke around in their bowl, go ahead. Don't tell someone else with a dog you really don't know that its going to create some level of acceptance they may not have in their temperament. Feed the dog away from the kids, out of the normal traffic of the house, and it will never be a problem with any dog. *They don't have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the kitchen, they don't have to eat there either.*


What about the cases where they do?
Not all folks live in 2200sq ft houses, not all folks have the luxury of time. The first house I bought was 400sq ft and had 4 rooms total. A bedroom, a bathroom, a kitchen and a living room. The people that lived there before me had two dogs and two kids. The kids slept in the bedroom, parents in the living room. The only actual door inside the house was on the bathroom. Four people, two full time jobs and two small children. One bathroom. Do the math.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

There will always be some people with situations that aren't ideal. I've lived in a small home as well and I can't imagine 4 people and 2 dogs living in such a tight space without the humans getting annoyed with each other, never mind the dogs. 

Even in my camper I keep the dog separated when they eat and I'd direct kids to sit on the couch or chair and keep busy with something while the dogs ate. It's not like the food is down all day. It's ten minutes a meal most days.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> What about the cases where they do?
> Not all folks live in 2200sq ft houses, not all folks have the luxury of time. The first house I bought was 400sq ft and had 4 rooms total. A bedroom, a bathroom, a kitchen and a living room. The people that lived there before me had two dogs and two kids. The kids slept in the bedroom, parents in the living room. The only actual door inside the house was on the bathroom. Four people, two full time jobs and two small children. One bathroom. Do the math.


I guess I'd politely suggest they put away the calculator and use their head for more then a hat rack. Just like Car2ner, 2weeks in an RV and I never had to feed them under foot.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If the dogs know without a doubt that you will make sure they eat in peace and not bothered they will have no worries and no one else will have worries including kids ,people, other pets in home.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Isn't some training of "bothering" the dog when they are eating necessary? I think the dog either has to have a very solid drop it/stop it command that can stop them from eating or they have to be fine with human messing their food. Or else how do you stop them when they try to eat stuff that they are not supposed to eat? I personally 'mess' with my dog's food frequently by adding food into the bowl and ask her to stop eating and get some really good treats before she can resume again. Maybe I am just lucky since my dog has 0 handler aggression issues, but I feel like this training is very essential to every dog especially near areas with dead squirrels/dead pigeons/homeless' leftover.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It seems to me that there are sort of 2 conversations going on here simultaneously. I personally don't see this as a question relating to food and/or feeding time only. Though I don't and never will bother my dog while she's eating, and to the extent possible I don't allow kids to either. I don't hand feed except for treats during training (though I can see the value for helping an older dog get over a resource guarding issue). And I don't take things from my dog, unless it's a safety issue, for practice or training.

Just my opinion, but if I were trying to train a dog to resource guard their food, I'd do it by messing with their food frequently and sometimes even taking it away from them. That way, everytime you come close to them while they're eating they'd have reason to worry! Trust is what keeps a dog from resource guarding food, not messing with them!

But what about toys, or a favorite spot on the couch? What about accidental bumping? I'm curious to hear how you folks who so carefully guard your dogs while eating address your dog's other resource behaviors, rather than just stating over and over that a dog should eat in peace...

I don't doubt at all that my dog would bite an adult that came up and tried to take her bone, or something else she viewed as a high value item, and that's totally understandable - I would expect that from most dogs. And I would not correct her for that. If she did that to me it would be a very different outcome though...not that I do this, or suggest anyone do this! I don't "grab" anything from my dog! If I need to take something away I'd tell her to drop it and leave it. That being said, if a small child were to try and take her bone, I am confident she'd take her bone and go elsewhere, or leave it and look to me for help!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, I teach leave it from bait food I have put on the ground or floor for that purpose. And actually i put food on the floor where i train enough that it is implied that you dont just vacuum up anything you see on the floor. But that is something I do while training. It has nothing to do with a meal. And in the learning phases I put low value on the floor and reward with higher value for not touching it.

Service dogs have to have some food avoidance training. Once on a flight, my seat mate put down a chicken salad on the floor by my service dog. She showed no interest which is appropriate for a working sd.

And rally has distraction food bowls in some exercises so I do also put down food bowls with food that I train around. But it is clear to my dogs that we are working, not having a meal. 

When I give them a meal I just think it would be rude to be like by the way stop eating and now do something else. I would be irritated if the restaraunt served me my food and just as I was taking a bite they said sorry you need to switch to another table.

But I walk by delicious meals being seated at the restaraunt... I dont obviously have the expectation of eating until it has been given to me to eat. I dont think it annoys my dogs to learn to refuse food while training. Anyway it is something they have to learn. They know this isn't meal time.

Any dog ought to be able to learn to leave it, call off , or ignore certain things at certain times, I just don't think meal tines ought to be part of it


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

tim_s_adams said:


> It seems to me that there are sort of 2 conversations going on here simultaneously. I personally don't see this as a question relating to food and/or feeding time only. Though I don't and never will bother my dog while she's eating, and to the extent possible I don't allow kids to either. I don't hand feed except for treats during training (though I can see the value for helping an older dog get over a resource guarding issue). And I don't take things from my dog, unless it's a safety issue, for practice or training.
> 
> Just my opinion, but if I were trying to train a dog to resource guard their food, I'd do it by messing with their food frequently and sometimes even taking it away from them. That way, everytime you come close to them while they're eating they'd have reason to worry! Trust is what keeps a dog from resource guarding food, not messing with them!
> 
> ...


Okay well speaking for myself, I DON'T "carefully guard" my dogs while eating. My one dog eats out of the thing that holds the water bowl. You know, the bowl holder has two bowls. If I see the water bowl is low when I put down her food, I'll fill it and put the water bowl back in while she is eating. She doesn't care. Neither do I. So-- I think for myself and my dogs I would say I don't take any special care other than not to deliberately bug them.

Except for my one who is dysfunctional and it's my fault, and he does eat around a corner like I said so he has privacy. But the door to the laundry room is over there and if I need to go switch laundry while he eats i do, which necessitates walking around close to him and sometimes asking him to scoot his butt over so I could get by. I wouldn't say I do that often but if it needs doing, I wouldn't NOT switch the laundry or carry on with my life just because he is eating.

They know the difference, I think. If I am carrying on with my normal life it does not involve their meal and they know it. So I make no effort to change anything I would ordinarily do.

As for furniture...well, to be honest we all have our spots that we like and usually the dogs are in theirs so mine is available. And honestly if they are in my spot I usually just take their spot. They would all move if I asked them to. But if my dog is sleeping I wouldn't typically wake him up to make him move so I can sit there. Exception to that being that my husband sometimes goes to bed before my and my big male will totally hog my entire side of the king size bed, he's that big, and he lays on my pillow. So I DO wake him up and move him to the foot of the bed when I go to bed, and he has never given me any trouble. I am polite about it. But I literally can't go to bed unless he moves LOL

Anything small enough to fit in the mouth, if there seems to be any guardiness or unwillingness to drop then we practice trade-ups and big reward outs etc.

I even trade puppies for loot because I'd rather they bring it to me than run away with it.

But everything in moderation, and I will grimlly walk a dog down to take what they have with no reward if I don't happen to have one, and it needs to be done.

Everything in moderation and they know what the "usual" is. "usually", I am fair and nice and give them good things for cooperating. And they joyfully cooperate. Maybe every once in a blue moon I make a mistake or I am grouchy and I lose my patience and I don't act as nice. They aren't little flowers who will wither and die the first cross word they hear... I am a firm believer that dogs are totally fine if something unfair or uncool is the outlier if you know what I mean. 

Heck, I overlook their "outlier" behavior if it's real out of the ordinary or extenuating circumstances or whatever. My old girl growled at me for the first time in her life after having a tooth removed and she had not yet come out of the drugs totally and I was in her face. The drugs have a weird effect on her anyway. 11 yrs first growl. I just said sorry and left her alone.I totally think they can do the same with us if you know what I mean. 

When my father visited with an elderly and frail friend I asked all the dogs to stay off the furniture while they were here. I told them to go stay on the dog beds and they did.

I tend to have dogs that are pretty good natured, pretty cooperative, etc. Maybe I select that kind? I like my house mellow and friendly. I'm mostly mellow and friendly toward them. They mostly are the same back to me


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yeah I don’t feel as so much as I have to guard food but yes I do have to watch our chihuahua does respect feeding time and does not steal food and commit suicide. He eats in the crate. Last week a tiny screw on the counter above his food blwl into max bowl I had to sift it out and did not think twice about. I added some ham afterward just because. I don’t feed them during crazy party madness although they will pick up what’s one the floor without fighting over anything as they learned no one will miss out. Anything will need to be taken away will be given a really good people food treat. I do not do raw feeding so that makes things easier although once in awhile they will get something raw. Max actually sleeps with his head on the pillow in my bed. Kids can barge in and take over his spot anytime or he just has to make room. Otherwise he would sleep downstairs. Same with Luna. They seem to have their spots. To get them off the couch it’s is not a fight i do not pull them off but come here max or Luna. Or to be honest There will be times I will scream get off my couch!!! Our chihauahu topper will guard his toys with the shepherds not us so they get put awAy because he no longer enjoys them but wants to guard them from max and Luna who could care less. When I was sick my mom sent over a cleaning friend -max always would steal her swifter dusters he looked forward to it a weird habit he wanted her to chase him around . I could get it easily and would switch it out with a toy- body language is important as to say I’m not playing.I can give max and Luna bones and they can enjoy them laying next to each other sometimes they may switch each other’s bones but they are the same. Photo of the enjoying their sheep horns together. My daughter stealing everyone’s spot - they readjust. All this I agree would chock this up to their good nature

















Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well, I teach leave it from bait food I have put on the ground or floor for that purpose. And actually i put food on the floor where i train enough that it is implied that you dont just vacuum up anything you see on the floor. But that is something I do while training. It has nothing to do with a meal. And in the learning phases I put low value on the floor and reward with higher value for not touching it.



I probably shouldn't reply to this....my response will be off topic but.......I've always had this splitting hairs attitude....semantics perhaps...about people teaching "leave it" the way you described above.


You probably have another command for an obedience discipline which means the dog will never ever as in ever never ever take possession of specific objects......like venomous snakes, crap, mushrooms, electrical cords, poisonous materials etc....things which could injure/kill your dog I suppose. Rewarding a dog with the "leave it" item.....just doesn't make sense to me.


SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Boy, I love my dogs. When the girls were little, little, when two of them had to get together to drag the food bucket and feed the dogs. At one point, Ninja was eating the food they put down, and Elena felt she needed to stick her hand into the bowl to do something. I was, of course, too far away to stop a lightning fast bite. But there wasn't a snarl, growl or even a grump. it was a non-happening. Why? Because my dogs are not conditioned to believe that people are going to take away their food. 

And if I have to get a pill or a broken bottle or a bit of something nasty out of their mouthes, I have always been able to put my hand in to their mouths and extract ANYTHING. It is really rare that I have to do that, but I have. I am not wearing scars from this. Actually, it is another non-happening. If my hand goes into my dogs' mouths, they never bite down. 

I don't know why I am so lucky. I don't deserve to be so lucky. I have not trained them to accept anything from me, and to expect anything from me. They just do. I'm lucky. I love my dogs.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I had to get a chicken leg bone out of my dog's throat this week. Some idiot left fried chicken bones on a playground we were doing some urban agility on. My dog went to sniff and I heard a crunch. I used our "phooey" command and I reached inside her mouth and pulled out the entire bone from her throat. This could have gone wrong in so many ways but my girl was completely calm about it. We've never made a big deal about taking her food away. At home, She's more concerned about my big-boy taking her food away. But we ALWAYS give them safe places to eat where they won't be bothered. 

All of my dogs have been like this, mutts and purebreed. Sometimes I need to take something away. It happens so rarely that I guess my dogs don't fret about it. 

Now if I could have found the person that had been careless about the bones, I might not have been so pleasant and calm to them! That could have hurt my gal-dog badly.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

My dogs all were adopted and they all have been good natured. Of course, I went looking for good natured dogs, but lots of other people did, too, and ended up with something completely different, so luck played a large part in it as well. My dogs eat in the middle of my kitchen with me whipping back and forth around them and even, in Rocky's case, stepping over them with no problem. They wag their tails if I pat them on the back as I go by and they have all liked their food and had good appetites. They have also been trustworthy around children. I will never forget a relative's nephew who was at my house and was fascinated by my 90 pound dog, Max. He was maybe 4 years old and wanted to feed Max and I showed him how to put bits of food on his open palm for Max to take, but he kept forgetting. I was worrying but didn't need to. Max very gently licked whatever crumbs he was offering from between his fingers. The picture of that little boy sitting on the doggie bed with my big dog, who was probably three times his size, and feeding him morsels of food has always stayed in my mind.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

newlie said:


> I was worrying but didn't need to. Max very gently licked whatever crumbs he was offering from between his fingers. The picture of that little boy sitting on the doggie bed with my big dog, who was probably three times his size, and feeding him morsels of food has always stayed in my mind.



I remember, many years ago when my daughter was about a year old. I came home and found her feeding our German Shepherd bits of bologna. That big dog was so so so careful taking the bologna from her tiny fingers, it was amazing. This dog was from the shelter and wow, we lucked out with him He was fabulous with our daughter.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> So there seems to be a controversy in the dog world.
> 
> There are those who say that you shouldn’t bother a dog that’s eating at all (like me) and there are those that say you should practice taking a dog’s food away in order to prevent food agression. They also say this because it supposedly will assure your dog that you are the Alpha.
> 
> ...


The Alpha thing is BS. Any dog who thinks they are Alpha is a stupid as a cat. See the research of Dr. John Bradshaw. There is no evidence that dominance is a character trait of individual dogs -- particularly against humans.

With all of my dogs, a baby could walk up and take their food right in front of them. The dog will try to eat quickly but there will be no aggression. I handle them and their food any way I want to, even if they have their face stuck in the bowl. They are smart enough to know who gave them the food. They are also smart enough to know that even the baby is boss.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

For me i am in the group that does mess with the dog while it is eating, from the day i get the dog i put my face in its bowl, hands and feet near the bowl. I did it with both of my GSD and the golden, all of them will back off and just wait. I do it for two reasons first one is i want my dogs not to be food guarding or food aggressive, second reason is if i am away and a friend or family member is watching the dogs they can feed them without any problems and take the bowl away with no problems. I have seen what happens when a dog is not use to people messing around with it while it is eating it is scary to watch.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Someone was talking on another thread about choosing the hill you die on. That's where I stand. 

IF I ran across a dog that was seriously food aggressive I suppose I would just segregate the dog. But as I stated before for all the crappy, unbalanced, poorly bred dogs that have shared my home over the years I have yet to find one. Which begs the question where are these "demon" dogs coming from? I have my suspicions.

Bud had been starved and was defensive about food. I opted to bypass that particular issue in fairness to him. I believe I could have corrected it but with history and more pressing issues, knowing he would stay with me, I made a choice.

Shadow is a weak nerved, fear aggressive mess. She only eats with me near, and in fact some times needs me to stand over her or keep her dish in my lap. 


Sabi would have eaten herself to death, a true food pig. She never showed the slightest aggression about food and the kids often fed her by hand. 


Mori had no human contact until I brought her home, and was kenneled with other dogs. She never showed any aggression about food. Not a trace.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

hoytn said:


> For me i am in the group that does mess with the dog while it is eating, from the day i get the dog i put my face in its bowl, hands and feet near the bowl. I did it with both of my GSD and the golden, all of them will back off and just wait. I do it for two reasons first one is i want my dogs not to be food guarding or food aggressive, second reason is if i am away and a friend or family member is watching the dogs they can feed them without any problems and take the bowl away with no problems. I have seen what happens when a dog is not use to people messing around with it while it is eating it is scary to watch.


Agreed. Family dogs must never show aggression against any family member or friend. If there is any situation in which they do, they must be trained out of it. Food included.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Just my opinion, but if I were trying to train a dog to resource guard their food, I'd do it by messing with their food frequently and sometimes even taking it away from them. That way, everytime you come close to them while they're eating they'd have reason to worry! Trust is what keeps a dog from resource guarding food IMHO, not messing with them!

That being said, nearly half of the respondents to this thread strongly believe that messing with a dog's food prevents food aggression! Proving once again, there is no one "right" approach!

If whatever you're doing is working for you and your dog, it IS the right method. If it isn't, this thread certainly has plenty of alternative approaches you could try > The main thing is not letting yourself or your kids get bit in the process!


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## JaxsMom (Dec 31, 2017)

I will occasionally have a need to move Jax's bowl while he is eating (put it down in his regular spot then realize I need to empty the dishwasher and move it to the other side of the room after he's started), and sometimes I'll add things after he starts. Nether is done on purpose or with an intent to train behavior. However, it makes me happy that he has never given me an issue or any cause for concern if I have to touch his bowl while he is eating. I believe that he trusts everyone in the household enough to know that we only ever have good intentions. Also he has certainly never gone hungry lol, so he would have no reason to get worked up about it. I would never mess with his bowl or food in an effort to establish a type of dominance. I expect him to leave me alone while I eat and give him the same respect.


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## bassun (Dec 3, 2018)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just my opinion, but if I were trying to train a dog to resource guard their food, I'd do it by messing with their food frequently and sometimes even taking it away from them. That way, everytime you come close to them while they're eating they'd have reason to worry! Trust is what keeps a dog from resource guarding food IMHO, not messing with them!
> 
> That being said, nearly half of the respondents to this thread strongly believe that messing with a dog's food prevents food aggression! Proving once again, there is no one "right" approach!
> 
> If whatever you're doing is working for you and your dog, it IS the right method. If it isn't, this thread certainly has plenty of alternative approaches you could try > The main thing is not letting yourself or your kids get bit in the process!


I think you make a valid point, and you do NOT want to give them any reason to worry. That's exactly why I'm on the side of mess with their food. I'm not trying to show dominance, I'm not trying to take away their food; I am, however, trying to establish that there is no need for any response just because I am near (messing with, adding, moving, etc.) their food (other than maybe a positive response as it may mean I'm adding in a goody). In my mind, it's about desensitizing the instinct to protect their food. Maybe I'm not saying that "correctly" but, I mean that in so much as they have no reason to worry about this silly human putting his hands in my food. I want them to be used to me bumbling around while they are eating. I want them to know that me messing with their food is not a reason to expect it to disappear. I get eating is instinctual, and instincts are instincts - but, we leverage K9 instincts all the time with specific training protocols both to heighten and reduce certain instinctual drives.

If you want to train a dog to not be afraid or aggressive towards other dogs - do you never introduce them to other dogs? Or do you introduce them to other dogs early and often so they know how to behave? If you want a dog to walk on a leash, do you never put a leash on a dog until you need it -- or do you train for that? If you want to ensure pleasant behavior, you can hope that it just naturally happens - or you can plan for success. I'm no pro trainer, but, to me it seems like this is akin to many other things we train. Maybe I'm crazy, maybe it all about how people approach meal time {I actually do think this is a big part of it, especially with regards to training feeding behaviors}, maybe I've just always been lucky in that any dog's we've ever had just happened to not mind us messing with their food. IDK but what I've always done works, and since it has I will keep at it. Having said that, this is my first GSD - and I get they have their own uniqueness - so maybe in a year I'll be on the other side of the fence saying how I was wrong for all these years...


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

bassun said:


> I think you make a valid point, and you do NOT want to give them any reason to worry. That's exactly why I'm on the side of mess with their food. I'm not trying to show dominance, I'm not trying to take away their food; I am, however, trying to establish that there is no need for any response just because I am near (messing with, adding, moving, etc.) their food (other than maybe a positive response as it may mean I'm adding in a goody). In my mind, it's about desensitizing the instinct to protect their food. Maybe I'm not saying that "correctly" but, I mean that in so much as they have no reason to worry about this silly human putting his hands in my food. I want them to be used to me bumbling around while they are eating. I want them to know that me messing with their food is not a reason to expect it to disappear. I get eating is instinctual, and instincts are instincts - but, we leverage K9 instincts all the time with specific training protocols both to heighten and reduce certain instinctual drives.
> 
> If you want to train a dog to not be afraid or aggressive towards other dogs - do you never introduce them to other dogs? Or do you introduce them to other dogs early and often so they know how to behave? If you want a dog to walk on a leash, do you never put a leash on a dog until you need it -- or do you train for that? If you want to ensure pleasant behavior, you can hope that it just naturally happens - or you can plan for success. I'm no pro trainer, but, to me it seems like this is akin to many other things we train. Maybe I'm crazy, maybe it all about how people approach meal time {I actually do think this is a big part of it, especially with regards to training feeding behaviors}, maybe I've just always been lucky in that any dog's we've ever had just happened to not mind us messing with their food. IDK but what I've always done works, and since it has I will keep at it. Having said that, this is my first GSD - and I get they have their own uniqueness - so maybe in a year I'll be on the other side of the fence saying how I was wrong for all these years...


Valid points, and I certainly see and respect your logic. I do think the approach you choose varies greatly with age. If you try this, messing with the dog's food, with an older dog who is pretty serious about gaurding his food, you're likely to lose some blood. With a puppy, not so much. So there is that! 

I can actually understand how "messing with a dog's food" in the way you're describing could teach them not to guard too...provided you start with a puppy AND give them no other reason not to trust you. Again, if it works for you and your dog it is the right approach!

That being said, I'm very much in agreement with @Sabis mom in that, I've yet to see a dog that can't get over resource guarding food from any human (dogs don't count because sometimes they can't be trusted for good reason LOL!), with the one exception I mentioned previously (the complete nerve bag that required medication to just get through the day without self mutilation and panic).

I certainly wouldn't try - or suggest to anyone else - to just "mess" with an adult resource guarding dog's food - without desensitizing them first and building up some trust. It would be a process and it would involve lots of hand feeding most likely.

This, like many other behavioral issues, can be extremely difficult to overcome if/when you attempt to "confront" the issue directly. More often than not, again IMHO, the problem is often best approached indirectly. A resource guarding dog, for example, often will have poor impulse control across the board. So working on impulse control in non-threatening ways can help. Likewise, general obedience usually helps broadly with other unwanted behaviors. And working on these things with the dog helps build trust, so it's a win win win.

To me it has always been fascinating how several vastly different training approaches can achieve the same or similar results. Trying to understand why or how that can work, I feel has helped me to better understand the canine mind...inasmuchas we can ever hope to do so >


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Absolutely agree that trust overcomes most issues. Most of Shadows success as a pet is owed to implicit and unwaivering faith in me. Probably more then I deserve. The same trust that kept Bud alive for 14 years. 
If the newest of owners would understand the vital importance of developing a relationship with Fido before making demands many issues would be avoided.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I've lucked out with my dogs. They are not pre-disposed to be food aggressive. Like playing with a dog with a laser pointer, some are pre-disposed to be obsessive/compulsive, and the laser pointer will bring that out. But it's like playing Russian Roulette, because you do not know that the dog is pre-disposed to this, until it happens. Food aggression can be like that. But I also believe it is easier to cure. 
True dog-aggression also I think is predisposed in some dogs. 

So if your normal puppy is bullied or attacked by a dog, then generally how quickly the event is over, and people are not rev'd up by it, the normal puppy will recover and generally that is the end of it. The puppy who is pre-disposed to dog aggression, may have this as a catalyst for dog-aggressive behavior. Well, first is it dog aggression or dog-reactive, because they can misdiagnosed. If your six month old puppy is barking like an idiot every time he sees another dog, it is probably dog-reactive. The dog is fearful of the other dogs and is acting out. Good socialization prior to a fear stage like this one, might make the stage less lengthy or even non-existent. 

Socializing the dog is kind of dicey, because if you have one that is predisposed to dog aggression, say, and you are out socializing the dog around other dogs, And one of those dogs wheels around and nails your dog in the back or butt or head. Then all that socialization is out the window, and what started for all the right reasons, ended up really badly. 

So I am in the camp of not messing with the dog's food, because if they are pre-disposed to food aggression, that is likely to bring it out. 

I am in the camp of not playing with laser pointers with dogs, because if they are pre-disposed to obsessive/compulsive disorder, that is likely to bring it out. 

And I am in the camp of not socializing my dogs around a ton of dogs or a ton of people, because if they have a decent temperament, it is unnecessary, and if they are pre-disposed to dog or human aggression, bad socialization experiences -- dog is bullied or hurt, attacked or teased, or the pup is overwhelmed by the amount of socialization then it will be counter-productive. 

I think people take young dogs out way too early, way before the dog feels confidence in its owner. And this is a recipe for bad socialization experiences. 

If we let our pup gain confidence in us, by being stable, consistent, trust-worthy, with reasonable expectations for the pup's developmental stages, then we should be way ahead of the game when it comes to having a dog that will be stable in all situations.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> I don’t mess with my dogs when they are eating. I cringe when people say they put their hands in their dog’s bowl while they’re eating, “so the dog knows who the alpha is”. I don’t understand how this ever became a thing. It in no way makes sense.


 It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

hoytn said:


> It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.


You are kidding right, or have you never observed wolves? In a wolf pack the alpha male allows everyone to eat, and treats all members with respect. It's easy to find videos where the alpha feeds both puppies and the elderly of the pack!

He can, as you can, interrupt a lower ranking wolf's meal...but he very very rarely does, and only for a good reason!

Wolves would not follow a tyrant leader...nor do people for very long LOL!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A lot of the old wolf-research was done by studying wolves in captivity. You have to expect wolves stuck in/perhaps born in a very limited enclosure would develop some strange (to wolves) habits. For one thing, there may not be a true-alpha in a pack generated and manipulated by humans. Food is not hunted for, it is provided, thus the main hobby/job of the wolves is not there. 

So, yeah, maybe a bored, wanna-be-alpha wolf found it entertaining to piss on a lower ranking wolf while it is eating. Kind of what happens when humans stick their big egos into the lives of animals. Kind of like when humans think animals should share their toys and bones.


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## Dionne2u (Nov 5, 2018)

I am totally confused, i thought we were talking of domestic dogs that live with other domesticated dogs and/or people. Not wild wolves. 

I ask myself now, why do i train my dogs at all and not let them just do as a wild wolf?

Yesterday my puppy was trying her best to get the food that sticks around the side of her bow, i (like a gangster) stuck my hand in her bowl, scraped the food from the side and i left with my hand and a wag of a tail. 
Yep. If i want wolf behavior I'll adopt a wolf.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Dionne2u said:


> Yesterday my puppy was trying her best to get the food that sticks around the side of her bow, i (like a gangster) stuck my hand in her bowl, scraped the food from the side and i left with my hand and a wag of a tail.





My current GSD is the same......maybe even more exaggerated.


When we are on the road in the motor home her food bowl is not against a wall like it is at home......so maybe she doesn't have any leverage to turn it or she's just stupid...or maybe lazy...who knows? But it is interesting behavior.......almost a lazy reliance of sorts



What she does when she gets close to the end of her meal on the road....she'll stop eating.......stare at one or both of us.....and patiently wait for her bowl to be spun 180 degrees, so she can finish the last bits.....and as you say this is all done with " a wag of a tail.".


Overall, this "controversy" is probably unique to both the specific dog and individual. Even though I can do whatever I choose with my dog's food....I would never suggest anybody else do the same as I do with my dog when it comes to her food.........just as I would never mess with some other person's dog and their food.


SuperG


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> You are kidding right, or have you never observed wolves? In a wolf pack the alpha male allows everyone to eat, and treats all members with respect. It's easy to find videos where the alpha feeds both puppies and the elderly of the pack!
> 
> He can, as you can, interrupt a lower ranking wolf's meal...but he very very rarely does, and only for a good reason!
> 
> Wolves would not follow a tyrant leader...nor do people for very long LOL!


You do understand i was telling her where the mindset comes from not that i subscribe to it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

hoytn said:


> It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.





Dionne2u said:


> I am totally confused, i thought we were talking of domestic dogs that live with other domesticated dogs and/or people. Not wild wolves.
> 
> I ask myself now, why do i train my dogs at all and not let them just do as a wild wolf?
> 
> ...


In case you were wondering, one of the I-mess-with-my-dog's-food folks brought up the wolves, and we on the other side were only giving our opinion on that matter. These conversations sometimes veer toward what dogs do naturally in the wild, because some behavior is instinctive, and if we are going to train that behavior it makes sense to know where it comes from. 

I think a lot of the folks that ascribe to messing with their dogs food, want to ensure that their dogs are safe if a child comes near them when they are eating. And that is what a responsible dog owner _should_ do, that is, ensure that they are safe. But the question is whether what they are doing by fussing with the food dish while the dog is eating is making children more safe or endangering them. 

My feeling about this is that the dog is either pre-disposed to be food aggressive, or not. If we build food drive in such a dog by making them work for it, using it as a reward to the extreme, or play this give/take away/give game with them, then we are much more likely to create an issue, that may have never reared its ugly head. And thus children are more endangered. 

A dog that is not pre-disposed to food aggression will not be bothered by the games and will not be a danger to children around their food dish. 

Another point is that, you can extinguish guarding behaviors with such training, but only for you. Unless you are doing with your child right there and with its hand in the food dish too. The dog who is truly food aggressive and knows that YOU will take it if you want to, if that dog has chosen to trust and follow you, You get a pass around the food dish. But you dallying with it, makes him even more sensitive about it, and any that he hasn't chosen to follow may be more at risk because of the heightened anxiety we would be creating. 

A responsible dog owner who has guests over and does not know how the dog will act about his food dish, should put the food dish up, or feed the dog where people will not be. Eliminate the possibility of food-related-injury. If you are sharing a meal with your guests, put the dog up. That isn't a problem, and guests (many of them) will appreciate that. [Note to self and other dog-crazy individuals: Not everyone loves your dog the way you do.]

I have kennel dogs and many of them live in a kennel with another dog or dogs. Feeding time is the highlight of their day for the most part, and they jump up and down and bark and get really, really excited. 

When my sister's small children, who come over 2-3 times a year, were out there feeding the dogs, they had no problems putting their hand right into the food dish while the dog was eating. Not sure why she did that, I think to move the dish over for some reason. But because my dogs were not conditioned to think that someone was going to get their food if they did not guard it, there was no issue. Maybe they are just not pre-disposed to food aggression.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> You are kidding right, or have you never observed wolves? In a wolf pack the alpha male allows everyone to eat, and treats all members with respect. It's easy to find videos where the alpha feeds both puppies and the elderly of the pack!
> 
> He can, as you can, interrupt a lower ranking wolf's meal...but he very very rarely does, and only for a good reason!
> 
> Wolves would not follow a tyrant leader...nor do people for very long LOL!


Tim, I need to make just a small correction here. In the wild wolf packs are actually ruled by an alpha female. Before everyone gets all naughty about that let me explain. It is the female who makes the decisions. Where the den site is, and who her mate is are her decision. In essence the male of the alpha pair is her hired muscle. And it is most often, within the pack, the female who teaches and reprimands. Not the male. It is she who shows displeasure at behaviors not in line with solid pack structure and while the male may need to be her enforcer it is she who rules. An alpha male is only ever subordinate to his mate.>


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## Dionne2u (Nov 5, 2018)

selzer said:


> hoytn said:
> 
> 
> > It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.
> ...


I really wasn't wondering, it was evident where it was coming from. I don't need to show who's Alpha, and don't care. I want a family dog, a dog that can work, play, live in society, with society. I train my dogs to be therapy and service dogs not wolves. Been training for 26+ years now with much success. 

Now where does taking the dogs food away and giving it back come in? Totally confused with that statement. I would not suggest anyone do that as a training method, there have been times i needed to add something in their food and taken the bowl away to add it but never for training and i expect not to be growled at nor any other aggressive sign when i need to do such. 
Ive brought dogs home and puppies that were very territorial with their food around animals and people, they realize quickly there is no need to be and the behavior is not appropriate. I can come up to a feed bowl and if I choose, stick my hand in it or a child can stick their hand in it with no worries. My nephew even eats out of their boy ha! With no issues.

Now what i do wonder and does concern me (being you wanted to clarify),is not the sticking of a hand in a food bowl, or the wolf/dog comments. No, my wonderment and concern is sticking a dog in a kennel where it's main joy in life is food. How many wolves exactly prefer that experience? How many dogs? Yeah give me a hand in my bowl any day verses being cooped up in a kennel all day.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> the female who teaches and reprimands. Not the male. It is she who shows displeasure at behaviors not in line with solid pack structure and while the male may need to be her enforcer it is she who rules. An alpha male is only ever subordinate to his mate.>





I hope my wife doesn't read this........ uh oh......gotta go and hide....here she comes......




SuperScaredG


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## Dionne2u (Nov 5, 2018)

SuperG said:


> Sabis mom said:
> 
> 
> > the female who teaches and reprimands. Not the male. It is she who shows displeasure at behaviors not in line with solid pack structure and while the male may need to be her enforcer it is she who rules. An alpha male is only ever subordinate to his mate./forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_devil.png
> ...


Gigs up SSG... Lol too funny


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Dionne2u said:


> I really wasn't wondering, it was evident where it was coming from. I don't need to show who's Alpha, and don't care. I want a family dog, a dog that can work, play, live in society, with society. I train my dogs to be therapy and service dogs not wolves. Been training for 26+ years now with much success.
> 
> Now where does taking the dogs food away and giving it back come in? Totally confused with that statement. I would not suggest anyone do that as a training method, there have been times i needed to add something in their food and taken the bowl away to add it but never for training and i expect not to be growled at nor any other aggressive sign when i need to do such.
> Ive brought dogs home and puppies that were very territorial with their food around animals and people, they realize quickly there is no need to be and the behavior is not appropriate. I can come up to a feed bowl and if I choose, stick my hand in it or a child can stick their hand in it with no worries. My nephew even eats out of their boy ha! With no issues.
> ...



you where not the intended target it was someone else who asked. I feel it is a personal choice about doing it or not, i have done with with the three i have had and no issues at all, my dad did it to his dog and no problems my mom did not and we ran into big problems.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

hoytn said:


> It comes from the mindset that in wolf packs the alpha eats first and can interrupt a subordinates meal whenever it feel like.


My questions were rhetorical. I’m familiar with the theories that have lead to people believing they need to dominate their dogs and be the “alpha”. My statment perhaps should have read, “I cannot believe people still subscribe to this line of thinking.”


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## Dionne2u (Nov 5, 2018)

@hoyten i am not sure how it copied your message, my message wasn't to you. I too believe it's a choice ?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

SuperG said:


> I hope my wife doesn't read this........ uh oh......gotta go and hide....here she comes......



Well, just don't start going out to eat and then regurgitating some of it at home for her to "enjoy." That's another privilege of being the alpha female, if she misses a hunt (e.g., while caring for pups).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dionne2u said:


> Now what i do wonder and does concern me (being you wanted to clarify),is not the sticking of a hand in a food bowl, or the wolf/dog comments. No, my wonderment and concern is sticking a dog in a kennel where it's main joy in life is food. How many wolves exactly prefer that experience? How many dogs? Yeah give me a hand in my bowl any day verses being cooped up in a kennel all day.


Cooped up, LOL! My dogs are kenneled, not crated all day and then all night as they would have to be if they were not kenneled. Because intact bitches are ok with each other, until they are not, and leaving them in a huge pack would mean bloodbaths. 

Instead they are in large kennels, most of them with another that they get along well with. The high point of the day is feeding time. That is when they first see me and I am carrying food and water. Nothing strange in that. But they have plenty of room. They can run around, lay down, drink, potty, and enjoy the company of others. 

They are animals, and whether they are inside or outside makes no difference whatsoever. What is important is that they are comfortable and engaged mentally and physically, which they are. 

I love the general attitude here, that finds it totally appropriate to crate an animal inside for 9 or 10 hours while they are gone for work, and then another 7-8 hours per day when they sleep. That is 16 to 18 hours out of 24 in a box. But they blow a gasket at the idea of dogs in kennels. 

I currently have 5 indoor dogs, and guess what? The highlight of their day is feeding time. My indoor dogs have doggy doors to their outside kennel areas, so they can potty when I am not home. Only 4 of my bitches are kenneled individually. The other 11 are in pairs save that one is a trio.


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## Dionne2u (Nov 5, 2018)

So i guess you're saying not to place my hand in their bowl and don't crate but do kennel. Or maybe crate but only if i have another doggie in there with her. Ahhh yes, for human contact means soooo little to a gsd. 
Hum, well to make you feel better i don't crate nor do i kennel but i just can't seem to keep my hands out of their bowls. Sigh.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dionne2u said:


> So i guess you're saying not to place my hand in their bowl and don't crate but do kennel. Or maybe crate but only if i have another doggie in there with her. Ahhh yes, for human contact means soooo little to a gsd.
> Hum, well to make you feel better i don't crate nor do i kennel but i just can't seem to keep my hands out of their bowls. Sigh.


I don't go out of my way to put my hands in their dishes. It wouldn't matter if I did. I just don't. And yes, I am not a fan of the amount of crating folks are comfortable with here. Kenneling a dog or a pair of dogs is a whole lot better in my opinion. 

I can and do take any of my dogs anywhere and they do fine in all situations. It is a lot more than a lot of folks can say. I suppose, this happens because I neglect them, abuse them, and haven't a clue about training and managing them. LOL!!!!! Oh, and I can do all this without the gadgets I've been told are necessary, like prong collars, e-collars, clickers, and the like. 

Ah well, I can continue to blow my horn, but I am a breeder, as well as a pet owner. I have intact bitches and an intact dog, and that means we do not all run in one big pack. It also means that sometimes I get dogs back as adults, or keep dogs that I have no intention of breeding or selling. I keep my old gals, gals I have bred because I want to see how they fare with regards to longevity and health. So yes, I have more dogs than your average pet owner. I don't have a problem with that. My dogs do not have a problem with that. If you do, oh well, I won't be losing any sleep over it.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

************MODERATOR WARNING************
Let's stay on topic please folks and not start sniping back and forth at each other.


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## hoytn (Oct 1, 2017)

Dionne2u said:


> @hoyten i am not sure how it copied your message, my message wasn't to you. I too believe it's a choice ?


got to love that LOL


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## bassun (Dec 3, 2018)

tim_s_adams said:


> Valid points, and I certainly see and respect your logic. I do think the approach you choose varies greatly with age. If you try this, messing with the dog's food, with an older dog who is pretty serious about gaurding his food, you're likely to lose some blood. With a puppy, not so much. So there is that!
> 
> I can actually understand how "messing with a dog's food" in the way you're describing could teach them not to guard too...provided you start with a puppy AND give them no other reason not to trust you. Again, if it works for you and your dog it is the right approach!
> 
> ...



Yes, I was talking about with puppies. I should have been more clear on that. With an adult rescue who has guarding issues, I would absolutely approach things a bit more cautiously. I think you hit the nail on the head, though - trust. It all comes full circle, and it takes more than working on one thing for success at even that one thing. My dad used to always say, "Take care of the pennies, and the dollars will take care of them selves." I think the same is true with dogs. You do all the "little" things right, and the big things often take care of themselves. Now if I could just not make any mistakes on my end, lol.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Stop bothering your dog Let the dog eat in peace u mess with my food u get stabbed with a fork, plain and simple.


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## Alyssa & Olivia (Nov 13, 2018)

I haven't read the whole thread seeing as it at over 200 replies but I thought I'd comment because why not?

Personally I agree with those who say to never take food away from your dog. However in the event that you need to your dog to let you have the item or food in question they should do so with no issue. 

My dog was initially crated while she ate since our other dog does have food aggression (I will talk about that later) and even at 2 months old she had no reaction. Sometimes I would put my hand in there just to see if she had a reaction but she honestly didn't care. I do have a 5 year old brother (at the time 4) so I did want to verify nothing major would happen. 

As she grew older she got let out of the crate when eating meals and I could take away meals or make her wait and she honestly didn't care. I rarely took things away from her so I don't think she expecting me to permanently take it away.

Today I can do whatever with her food. Once I give the command she will eat, and if I take it away her head will follow it but not aggressively. She's just a pig that presents herself as a dog haha. I usually forget to add something or other and end up going in there to add it and she could care less. 

I tried very hard to make eating a non stress activity and it seems to have worked out fine. She would bite me for petting or brushing her when she was a puppy but she never had any aggression with food despite having 9 siblings. Side note - My dog was heavily under socialized when young, she would never bite someone now. 

I have always made it clear that when the dogs are eating that the younger brother is not to be anywhere near her when she is eating. Not that I fear that she will bite him, I just don't think it's wise to have small children and dogs eating food together. He has walked past her and touched her while eating and she doesn't care, I honestly don't think she'd care if he took the bowl either.

On the fact my other dog is food aggressive - He would never ever hurt a person while eating. He is the only dog I can truly say would never bite or snap at someone, he's a very odd dog. I could have my younger brother have his whole hand in the bowl and sit next to it and the dog would just wait. He just has issues with other dogs trying to get his food, his past is unknown however.

Overall in my opinion just leave your dog alone while they eat. I would probably bite someone too if they wouldn't let me eat in peace to be fair.


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