# Not going to get rich Breeding.



## westallkennel (Feb 3, 2011)

I ran into a lady I use to work with and she was showing me her new puppy. She call it her "money" dog because she was planning to breed her, and make lots of money off the puppies. I gave her my break down on how much money she would make and I would like to share it with you.

Expenses:
Health check for Bitch
All shots up to date $500.00
Fee to breed to male 500.00
Additional vet fees xray ultra sounds 200.00
Food for bitch through weaning 3750.00
50.00x75wks
emergency c-section 4000.00
Vet check and shots for pups say 6 300.00
food for pups 1000.00
total expenses without c-section 6250.00


Price for pups of her type in area 6x350.00 2100.00
money made -4150.00

And that is if you are lucky to have 6 healthy live puppies and can find homes for all. Plus you are taking a chance of loosing you bitch to complications. 
I don't even know top breeders who make money. The only ones who make money on breeding are puppy mills They just don't care what they breed.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I probably would have broke her neck before being able to break it down for her for calling a puppy a 'money dog.' Glad you were able to break that down for her. 

Did she change her mind, or is she planning on turning her 'money dog' into a puppy mill bitch?


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## westallkennel (Feb 3, 2011)

She said she was going to research it. But she is the type not to care. I wanted to grab her dog and run.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I probably would have said something short, blunt, and hateful like, "You're not going to make much money off of her when she dies in labor." And walked away, but that's just me. :/ I'm a hostile person when it comes to people breeding irresponsibly, especially when they're not open to learning about it. If they're open to learning, then by all means, I'll fart butterflies. But most aren't, unfortunately.


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## westallkennel (Feb 3, 2011)

She did call me two-faced because I have bred my shepherd. But I also told her I took 2 years to find the right male and I had all health checks done and had a list of names and deposits of people to adopt the puppies before I even bred her, and I had to have a c-section done because of complications. Maybe she learned something I can only hope.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Maybe after listening to your experience she will think about it! I just had a discussion with someone who told me they bred their little purse-dog - some kind of a mix, they are not sure what. 
I came right out and said "Why on earth would you breed a mixed breed of unknown background when there are dozens of such dogs available at the local shelter?" 

She took it better than I thought she would.  She agreed that lots of dogs in shelters need homes, and that they have two other mixed breeds from the shelter at home, but they have family and friends who want a pup from the purse puppy, so she has four puppies pre-sold already! 

There was soooo much more I wanted to say, but held my tongue - (WHERE is that fish-slapping smiley?)


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

Wow There's a little bit of hostility towards breeders here, I thought those numbers were WAY off target, course I am very exclusive about my vets I also thoughtyour breeding fees were pretty cheap, unless you like cheap dogs. here's what I thought it should have been

Expenses:
Health check for Bitch
All shots up to date $200 max
Fee to breed to male $1000 - $2000 or more for good bloodlines
Additional vet fees xray ultra sounds $200.00 but not necessary, if she's pregnant she's pregnant, if not she wont get big, you'll know at 1.5 months, responsible breeders record and pay close attention to their time tables.
Food for bitch through weaning $200. (unless youre sprinkling gold dust on it.) 3-4 40lb bags premium puppy chow
emergency c-section $200
Vet check and shots for pups say 6 @ $10 each
food for pups 100 - 2 40lb bags premium puppy chow (again avoid sprinkling gold dust on food.
total expenses without c-section $800 (not including breeding fee's or well puppy checks)


Price for pups of her type in area 6x $1000.00 for well bred puppies $6000
money made $5200

Now I will admit I am willing to drive up to 300 miles for a quality vet, of my preference, that is breeder friendly, (no i wont tell who, my little secret) but again, This is not going to make anyone rich at 5k per female per litter. and a Responsible breeder wont 
1. breed "cheap" dogs that are either ugly or have bad bloodlines. (cant begin to say how many ugly dogs i've seen while shopping for good dogs/breeders) and 
2. wont breed a dog often enough to be considered a "puppy mill" It's bad for the bitches. I treat my bitches like queens. (ha ha, my favorite joke.) 

I'd have to say, 1 if youre paying more than that find a different vet, look further out in the country. vets in rural urban areas are usually charging for the "pampered pet" idea, your dog doesn't care if your vet practices zen and fung shui.
2. If you're getting breeding fee's that cheap take a good hard look at the bloodlines and you're breeder, try to find someone who is actually licensed and doing it right. My breeder would not breed my dog without seeing the pedigree, meeting me, and seeing my dog first. not telling what i paid though. High quality bloodlines cost $ and that is what keeps the puppy mill breeders in a different class.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Let's assume that the bitch has 10 puppies a year, dog food is free and vet bills are paid by magical elves... Is someone really gonna retire on $10k a year?
If one really thinks that, then that's a sad state of affairs.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

> Wow There's a little bit of hostility towards breeders here


They're not talking about reputable breeders, they're talking about backyard breeders. 
As for your estimate of prices, I'd love to know where in fantasy land you live.



> Food for bitch through weaning $200.


Based on the 75 weeks the OP used, that amounts to $2.67 a week. 
What kind of food could possibly be fed for that?

I think some of your prices are way too low, but maybe that's just me.
And that selling price screams backyard breeder.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> Let's assume that the bitch has 10 puppies a year, dog food is free and vet bills are paid by magical elves... Is someone really gonna retire on $10k a year?
> If one really thinks that, then that's a sad state of affairs.



Great point, This is a hobby not a profession!


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

GSDGunner said:


> I think some of your prices are way too low, but maybe that's just me.
> And that selling price screams backyard breeder.


insulting me as a BYB not cool, 

and premium dog food for puppies that dont start eating until they are 3-4 weeks old and even then are still nursing, not so much, ONE bag of $40.00 puppy chow is going to last a pregnant bitch at least a month. I figured 4 bags for 2 months gestation (twice as much as needed) then for another 2 monghs after your Whelping date for pups to mature to an age where they can be weened from their mother even 8 PUPPIES will not go through a 40 lb bag in 2 weeks. so another 4 bags after whelping and weening for mom and pups only runs you max $200.00) that's total of $400 for food for the entire process at premium dog food prices. back yard breeders dont pay $40 per 40lb bag they get $20 -60lb bags from walmart. DO YOUR MATH BEFORE YOU CALL SOMEONE A BACK YARD BREEDER NEXT TIME!!

Also total weeks = 16 weeks from breeding until weening, not 75


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

What on earth are you feeding that costs you $50 a WEEK? That's crazy.

Second of all, to the other poster arguing about food - puppy chow is a really crappy food.

I see your point in trying to educate her, but here's how she's seening it:

Price of dog (BYB) $300.
Shots at low cost clinic or shot clinic - $20 give or take, depending on the place.
No health testing (after all, "she looks fine") = $0
Wal-mart quality dog food - $20/month
Birth goes as planned = no vet care necessary
No vet care for puppies, she'll leave that up to the new owners so $0
Sell pups at 5 or 6 wks of age as soon as they can eat regular food

As with most BYB's it seems, she'll have an easy mating to another BYB dog in trade for one pup, or a couple hundred bucks, and the bitch will probably whelp 12 puppies who will of course all be born healthy, stay healthy, and sell for $300 each. Meanwhile, the quality females can't seem to get pregnant, then need a c-section, then the pups need to be hand raised, and the list goes on...

She's seeing a profit for the reasons above. you won't change her mind.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I wanna know where 75 weeks came from? Unless I'm mistake then are pregnant for around 60-63 days which is like 9 weeks plus 8 weeks of puppies thats 17 weeks not 75? does anyone remember theres ONLY 52 weeks in a year so are you calculating the food she's eating from the time shes a puppy til a year and a half old?


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

JOSHUA SAMPSON said:


> insulting me as a BYB not cool,
> DO YOUR MATH BEFORE YOU CALL SOMEONE A BACK YARD BREEDER NEXT TIME!


I did not insult you! I was speaking in general.
Your post did not say YOU charge those prices. It seemed you were speaking in general and not in the first person.
And I was merely going by the math in the OP's initial post (about the food). I apologize for not thinking about the weeks he/she stated. It's early and I lost an hours sleep.

And don't shout at me, that's just rude!


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

Dunno what she's thinking but sounds more like Emoting to me, on the other hand youre right about the puppy chow, that's why I dont feed "puppy chow" the brand i feed "a premium puppy chow" notably Eukanuba large breed puppy, and it cannot be bought from walmart, they dont carry it. and I dont know where the 75 weeks came from but Youre right, I just didnt want to make the 52 weeks in a year comment, I thought it might sound hostile, and that's not what i was trying to say. I'm done with this thread! And I dont think a 1 thousand dollar or MORE breeding fee is a BYB kind of price besides I was trying to strengthen your point about not trying to make money off of this not demean you.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

I think the 75 weeks was about the entire cost of the investment if you're breeding dogs for money. 
Some people just see the cost of a puppy, the cost of _creating_ puppies, which is nothing, and calculate instant profits.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON (Feb 21, 2010)

and just so we're clear about these "fantasy land" prices that I used, i pay those prices, I didn't just yank them out of my backside. I'm sure there are people who pay a lot more, I'm just saying that if you want to pay not only you're vet but their ten staff members over $200 dollars to run a $15 progesterone test then be my guest. That's why it costs more. ok NOW I'm done with this thread.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

JOSHUA SAMPSON said:


> I'm just saying that if you want to pay not only you're vet but their ten staff members over $200 dollars to run a $15 progesterone test then be my guest.


I don't know about your vet but here there is no bargaining with a vet. There is no "lets make a deal". 
I don't _want_ to pay their fees, but it's not like I have a choice. There's no way to bid for a service here. I'm glad you can pay what you want. I guess you're lucky (or smarter) than most.

Seems to me you're getting a bit up in arms over a generalized statement.
Why you are so upset, I don't know. Your posts were generalized and you didn't mention or suggest it was from your personal experience as a breeder. I did NOT call you a BYB!
There is a thread about BYB's raising their prices to look more reputable. That is why I stated the price indicated a BYB.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

If your main goal is to make money in breeding, you're going to make money in breeding. The quality and health of your animals may suffer, but you'll make money if that's your goal.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

> Expenses:
> Health check for Bitch
> All shots up to date $200 max
> Fee to breed to male $1000 - $2000 or more for good bloodlines
> ...


I think all that was accomplished by underestimating the amounts was make it look so profitable for the average person who now thinks they'll make a killing selling puppies. 

Emergency c-section for $200? Let's be realistic here. An e-vet alone would charge that much for walking in the door. And no, there is no alternative for most. If it happened after hours and you need to get a c-section, you're screwed!
Even if it happened during regular hours, I, personally, would never get one that cheap here. 
$60 to get shots on 6 puppies? Not at my vet. I don't know where you are located, but these prices are not indicative of the average persons vet.

I think it's irresponsible of a breeder to make it sound like it's a piece of cake to breed dogs. Those kind of remarks are what make people think they can breed their cute dog and make money at it. The birth of yet another BYB.

I don't see where you've allowed for health testing other than $200 for shots.
Do you breed GSD's? I assume OFA testing is a tad more than $200.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Ok since you can't get rich breeding dogs-anybody got any suggestions? Any good stocks out there?


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## westallkennel (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes you can probably get away cheaper. and in some areas pay more.I based my fees on the average prices for my area. I feed Royal Canine german shepherd puppy to my female through weaning it runs about 50.00 one bag a week.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

All of those prices seem off to me.

Working line stud fees run between $500 and $1500--very few are higher than that. However, you usually have to travel or ship the bitch or do AI. 

Fresh chilled AI will cost around $1200 *before* the stud fee. 

Say you're lucky and you can drive--and take 3 days off of work (or do the drive twice?)--you'll still have the hotel room fees--so, easily, $500.

Or you could ship the girl, which risks throwing her estrous cycle off or whatever else (imagine your girl in standing heat running loose around the airport....) -- so, gas + $400 for shipping one-way, then another $400 to ship back.

Emergency C-sections in my area run $1200-2400. A non-emergency one is usually more like $400-800.

Feeding a pregnant bitch is slightly more expensive--but, say, $80.

Feeding a nursing mom gets right much more pricey--I'm currently feeding Xita around 8 cups of food a day + eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, some tripe, canned food, etc. Still, it's not in the thousands, I'd say around $180 for 8 weeks. Puppies can really go through the kibble, too, or raw if that's what you're feeding, still, not in the thousands--more like a 33 pound bag every week just for the pups. So, let's say 5 bags at about $45 a bag--$270.

First vet visit and health checks and shots--around $300 or so, depending on your vet and what discounts they might give you.

It costs a bit to do it right, although the expenses are spread out, not a single lump sum.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

holland said:


> Ok since you can't get rich breeding dogs-anybody got any suggestions? Any good stocks out there?


Chickens. 
Baby chicks are $.35 and in 8-10 weeks you can sell them for $8. 
You don't have to waste time training or titling them and one can BYB to their heart's content. 
There is no risk of overpopulation because if the new owners don't want it anymore they can just eat it


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Inoculations and wormers cost me about $300.
Feeding puppies (weaning them) K9Kravings & canned Venison Tripe for 2 weeks..about $125 ish...
Feeding 5 1/2 wks to 8 wks...Earthborn Primitive & Venison Tripe...about $95.
Vet check for litter....about $75 for litter (no inoculations).
*then add cost of stud fee, progesterone testing, any fees for travel(gas), maintaining female through, during & till weaning.
Allow emergency fee for c-section or anything else that may arise.
Average price of puppy....$1200-$1800

*It can be pretty expensive to breed a litter*.
No way...I could retire....not in this lifetime.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

At $8 you would need a lot of chickens to get rich and I think my dogs might eat the profits-plus I think they smell???


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I do think you can clicker train chickens though if you wanted to


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Jax's Mom said:


> Chickens.
> Baby chicks are $.35 and in 8-10 weeks you can sell them for $8.
> You don't have to waste time training or titling them and one can BYB to their heart's content.
> There is no risk of overpopulation because if the new owners don't want it anymore they can just eat it


:thumbup::rofl:


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## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)

Castlemaid said:


> ...There was soooo much more I wanted to say, but held my tongue - (WHERE is that fish-slapping smiley?)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Emergency c-section -- $1100 here. 

Health screening for the bitch -- $550 - $800.

Food for dam and pups, $60 for kibble, and $50 for yogurt, ice-cream, cheese, cottage cheese, chicken, beef, eggs, formula, baby rice cereal, etc, etc, etc,

Supplies $100 - $200 if you do not buy the cadillac of whelping boxes. 

Hours on the phone talking to prospective puppy buyers -- hundreds.

Cleaning supplies -- $20 - $30 (lots of paper towels, clorox whipes, etc.)

Puppy shots, wormer approx $300.

Stud fee -- $800 - $1000.

AI $300 x each session x each heat cycle with no puppies -- easily $1200. 

ultrasounds and x-rays -- not necessary, unless there is a problem. x-rays for false pregnancies can be 1000 or more in a short time.

Is there any point to really add it all up. 

The main problem is that the more you put into it, the worse your chances of having a litter at all, if it was an supposed oopse between young untried, unchecked dogs of the same breed, pregnancy is 95% certain with a medium large litter. If it is a mangey, mixed breed that services your bitch, pregnancy is 99.9% certain, normally with a large to huge litter. How come is that???


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jax's Mom said:


> Chickens.
> Baby chicks are $.35 and in 8-10 weeks you can sell them for $8.
> You don't have to waste time training or titling them and one can BYB to their heart's content.
> There is no risk of overpopulation because if the new owners don't want it anymore they can just eat it


where can you get baby chicks for 35cents?? lol

I paid $3 for my last ones! Then grown I might be able to sell them for $6


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## Cheza (Mar 8, 2011)

westallkennel said:


> She said she was going to research it. But she is the type not to care. I wanted to grab her dog and run.


 yep,


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

westallkennel said:


> I ran into a lady I use to work with and she was showing me her new puppy. She call it her "money" dog because she was planning to breed her, and make lots of money off the puppies. I gave her my break down on how much money she would make and I would like to share it with you.
> 
> Expenses:
> Health check for Bitch
> ...


*"Food for bitch through weaning 3750.00"*

WOW! What in the world are you feeding her? She must eat like a wolf!!!!!!

And that sounds awful cheap for the puppies. Wish I could have found a top notch puppy from a well know breeder for $350! Mine was a LOT higher than that!


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

Jax's Mom said:


> Let's assume that the bitch has 10 puppies a year, dog food is free and vet bills are paid by magical elves... Is someone really gonna retire on $10k a year?
> If one really thinks that, then that's a sad state of affairs.


After reading this, I Looked right away for the 'like' button...I think we need a like button so we can agree easier


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Last time I checked, the bitch is supposed to eat every day, whether she is pregnant or not. Maybe that is where the food price is coming from? Though $3,000 in food for a 2-3 yo old bitch sounds like a lot? 

Say $60/month for premium food x 12 months x 3 years=$2160

or

$20/month for crud food x 12 months x 3 years=$720


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Too bad they aren't training, that adds up to about $1200 conservatively for most + the trials! What can you trial a purse-dog in again? Though they do eat much less than a 70# GSD, so the cost to feed would be considerably less.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> Too bad they aren't training, that adds up to about $1200 conservatively for most + the trials! What can you trial a purse-dog in again? Though they do eat much less than a 70# GSD, so the cost to feed would be considerably less.


Fuzzy footballs can trial in obedience, agility, rally, tracking. I've read articles of people training them to cart (with appropriate sized equipment and loads) and SAR training, Cavaliers being used as gundogs. Therapy work is almost made for them. I wouldn't consider a toy breed from a breeder who didn't have some kind of title on the back end (beyond a CGN).

And mine goes through a $20 bag of Orijen roughly every month plus treats (Zukes).


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> where can you get baby chicks for 35cents?? lol
> 
> I paid $3 for my last ones! Then grown I might be able to sell them for $6


In Canada they're dirt cheap (much cheaper than dirt, actually) because no one knows where chickens come from. 
I looked into it once because my grandmother used to raise chickens and I had a blast doing it... perhaps I'll revisit it one day


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