# Breeder Recommendations - "Straight-Backed" GSDs



## LakotaWolf (Apr 7, 2016)

Hi all,

For 12 happy years, I had a beautiful German Shepherd named Ember, who unfortunately was diagnosed with mammary cancer in 2010 and had to be euthanized (she was spayed, so the mammary tumors were a bit of a shock). She was a working-line GSD with Vom Rhein ancestry - Zarek Vom Rhein was her great-grandfather and a female named Victress of Oak Hills was her mother. She was a beautiful, straight-backed, very light-colored "cream and silver" lady who had a sweet personality, loved my cat, and was generally an all-around "best pal" kind of dog.

I have not been able to acquire another dog since the loss of Ember, as I have not felt I was ready for one. (And I was concerned about stressing my cat with a new puppy, as she is fairly old - nearly 18 now). So while I'm not 100% ready yet, I want to start doing my research for a future GSD now, as it's not a decision I want to make quickly or lightly.

I'm not looking for a clone/total replacement for Ember, and I am not set on any particular coloration/marking coverage (although I admit Ember's super-light coloration was gorgeous!) 

But one trait I would actually prefer is the "straight back" - I am not fond of the super-sloped back most American-lined GSDs have. Shallow, I know, but it's just not the look for me. 

I live in the Southern California area, with a large yard (my family owns two houses next to each other and the fence between the yards has been knocked down). I would actually make any future pet fully-indoors, but with plenty of exercise, and I plan on taking a pup through either basic agility or perhaps even basic Schutzhund training, with the option to take it to higher levels if the pup seems inclined :}

The dog would primarily be a companion animal to me.

Does anyone have any breeder recommendations based on this? I know Rancho Rhein is still in nominal existence (and would be super awesome since I've had a GSD with Vom Rhein ancestry), but I don't know if they still actively breed GSDs any more. 

Any other thoughts, tips, and advice are also appreciated. Thank you!


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

"Straight" and "parallel to the floor" are not the same thing. A dog looks completely different set up than it does standing. It's fine not to care for American dogs, but one should be educated in what they are and are not. The dogs shown here have straight backs, regardless of being stacked or standing four square (which is not a common occurrence...getting these pics took months).


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Are you thinking of German Showline? Even the less-than-ideally bred ASL dogs tend to have straight backs. 

Perhaps you're looking for a dog with less angulation in the rear?


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## LakotaWolf (Apr 7, 2016)

I would show some pictures of my past GSD - to give the idea of my conception of what I want - but I can't post links or pictures until I have a few more posts :} (Although she was never trained to hit "show pose"/set up, so I only have pictures of her standing normally). 

I'm guessing what I'm looking for isn't a "straight-back" - I see that was an ignorant term on my part. I would prefer a dog from German working or show lines, and not American lines. A dog with a straighter topline in general.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Welcome Lakota! :welcome:

We ALL learn things everyday.....So we are only "UN-informed" until we become "INformed"! 

There are many qualified people here that can help you!

Also, go to the search box above and type in "breeder in California". Scroll past the pink box and then you will see many threads, some old, some new.

Another good thing for people to know is, how far you are willing to travel?

Here are some good reading materials!

German Shepherd Types - German Shepherd Guide 


(German Shepherd and Schutzhund Articles, by Wildhaus Kennels ) 

Things to look for in a 'Responsible' Breeder

German Shepherd Guide - Home


We'll expect lots of pictures when you do get your new puppy!

Moms


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Is the body type in photo 2 attributed to that specific line and is that the desired look? That dog seems to have a "finer" body frame overall - especially noticeable around the neck and chest area. Or, is that "lighter" body frame likely to be found in any of the lines?


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I would check into Schraderhaus k9 and vom Banach. They are not in California but to the north of you...Washington I think. Both working line. I know one Banach dog here and he is great. The other...I have heard good things. Worth looking in to.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I don't know if Rancho Rhein is still breeding but Anne Kent (Adler Stein) has many of Phyllis' old lines (and is friends with Phyllis). 

Adler Stein Kennels-Dog Boarding Santa Clarita- Dog Training Santa Clarita 661 367-0440- Dog Boarding Los Angeles-German Shepherds-German Shepherd Puppies-Working Line German Shepherds


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> Is the body type in photo 2 attributed to that specific line and is that the desired look? That dog seems to have a "finer" body frame overall - especially noticeable around the neck and chest area. Or, is that "lighter" body frame likely to be found in any of the lines?


The second animal in that lineup is a young bitch. The rest of those animals are male.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Xeph said:


> The second animal in that lineup is a young bitch. The rest of those animals are male.


Ha! Thank you for clarifying Xeph. I have a 22 month old female and she most closely resembles photo 2 - now I know why:blush:


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## Rosy831 (Feb 27, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> Is the body type in photo 2 attributed to that specific line and is that the desired look? That dog seems to have a "finer" body frame overall - especially noticeable around the neck and chest area. Or, is that "lighter" body frame likely to be found in any of the lines?



does it mean I have a "shepherd" problem if I can identify the different types? Is there a 12 step program for that? :wild:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Xeph said:


> "Straight" and "parallel to the floor" are not the same thing. A dog looks completely different set up than it does standing. It's fine not to care for American dogs, but one should be educated in what they are and are not. The dogs shown here have straight backs, regardless of being stacked or standing four square (which is not a common occurrence...getting these pics took months).


Yes this a very clear and direct information and should be put on all Poland sping and all brands of water bottles. All I hear even from non dog people is the slope asl are a abomination. Of course some breeders breed however the wind blows but not all. I do not like it when they are painted into a corner. I laugh when they say my dog looks like the real original shepherd with a straight back. I can't wait to tell them he is a American showline German shepherd.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Rosy831 said:


> does it mean I have a "shepherd" problem if I can identify the different types? Is there a 12 step program for that? :wild:


lol I think you're safe Rosy. 

I think that people understand that when the term "straight back" is mentioned that does not mean parallel to the floor at all times - how could it if the dog is in a posture that is not parallel to the floor?.

It seems however, no matter how the novice attempts to describe what they are looking for - especially using "straight back" as a way of explaining or "not roached" or "not over-angulated" they catch heck for the term they used or for even having that preference - and most often from people who know exactly what they are trying to describe but THEY have some issues....


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I like this idea! :laugh:

Can we clear up 'roach back' and 'frog dogs' too? 




Jenny720 said:


> *Yes this a very clear and direct information and should be put on all Poland sping and all brands of water bottles*. All I hear even from non dog people is the slope asl are a abomination. Of course some breeders breed however the wind blows but not all. I do not like it when they are painted into a corner. I laugh when they say my dog looks like the real original shepherd with a straight back. I can't wait to tell them he is a American showline German shepherd.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I like this idea!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


l

Yes I agree- one sticker on each side of a water bottle asl/wgsl. One day the breeders that breed extreme showlines will be phased out.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> I think that people understand that when the term "straight back" is mentioned that does not mean parallel to the floor at all times - how could it if the dog is in a posture that is not parallel to the floor?.


There are people think that my dogs' backs are "sloped" all the time



> It seems however, no matter how the novice attempts to describe what they are looking for - especially using "straight back" as a way of explaining or "not roached" or "not over-angulated" they catch heck for the term they used or for even having that preference - and most often from people who know exactly what they are trying to describe but THEY have some issues....


Because it is spoken from an ignorant and uneducated point of view.

WL people don't like it when their dogs are called hyperactive bite machines, either, and seek to correct misinformation. Why should those of us who have AmLines not do the same?


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Xeph said:


> WL people don't like it when their dogs are called hyperactive bite machines, either, and seek to correct misinformation. Why should those of us who have AmLines not do the same?



Exactly. 

In my world, a straight topline IS a straight back.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This helps me see the differences a little clearer for some reason.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

SiegersMom said:


> I would check into Schraderhaus k9 and vom Banach. They are not in California but to the north of you...Washington I think. Both working line. I know one Banach dog here and he is great. The other...I have heard good things. Worth looking in to.




Shraderhaus is in Tacoma, WA and Vom Banach is in Port Orchard, WA. Both breed nice dogs. Working lines.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Stonevintage said:


> This helps me see the differences a little clearer for some reason.


I can see how it would be helpful, except that the AmLine dog is _stacked_ extreme. That rear leg doesn't need to be that far back, causing that rear to really drop. I have all kinds of win photos with varying stacks. I don't like a dog that is really stretched out.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes the sample of those computer drawn pictures of the different shepherd lines are very clear to me as what it actually is trying to point out- but really reminds me of one of those games- like what is different in these pictures???oh yes the way the second dog has one of his back legs almost under his chin.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. It's not just the stacking though. IMO the problem is people draw conclusions without having some fundamental understanding of conformation.

I had a bit of a head start because of my involvement with horses from 1976 through 2009. I was in 4H as a young person. We studied and had 'horse bowls' where we sat in a circle and had to answer questions and point to charts of anatomy to show we knew the difference between a hock and a pastern. I still had and have a lot to learn about dogs.

What's really sad today is the amount of misinformation online and people who don't have even a basic understanding of conformation jumping to conclusions.

If you (general you of course) cannot point out, _from memory_, where the croup, stifle, hock, pastern are on a dog you should take some time to educate yourself some more before jumping to conclusions about what ideal conformation is. It takes some time, learning, observation to train one's eye as to conformation.

Some of the dogs I see people hold up as great examples of the breed have sway backs and not enough angulation, sometimes the lack of angulation is severe too. This can impact their movement and health of joints and ligaments over time as much as over angulation.




dogfaeries said:


> I can see how it would be helpful, except that the AmLine dog is _stacked_ extreme. That rear leg doesn't need to be that far back, causing that rear to really drop. I have all kinds of win photos with varying stacks. I don't like a dog that is really stretched out.


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Very well said.  I also grew up in 4-H (10 Years) and FFA. We did lots of Livestock Judging and having to give reasons to the Judge. I was also on our Horse Bowl Team. :toasting: Those things really help one learn the basics about different kinds of animals. It does cross over in some area's. Another thing I used to do is look at the pictures from the Sieger Show, critique the dogs, and then look at the critique from the judge and compare. It helped me learn what to look for and what I was looking at. Of course, you didn't get to see the movement, but watched some videos and learned there as well.

One just has to look at some of the national horse conformation and pleasure competitions and see how bad the breeding and selection process is, to get these current "ideal specimens" (yes, that is sarcasm) that has literally crippled these horses. Unfortunately some are doing the same thing to the GSD breed, when they are only looking at one aspect when they are selecting breeding pairings. 

The difference between a AKC Show Stack, SV Show Stack and Natural Stack, can make some difference, but ultimately the structure is there and its not going to change, regardless of how you present. 

(Disclaimer - my preference is for Working Lines, but I did have a show line and I loved him to pieces, he didn't have extreme angulation.)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Very cool! It was a lot of fun too, hanging out with other horse nerds in 4H.  


Halter horses - quarterhorses are an example I'm more familiar with. Upright pasterns leading to higher incidence of navicular. I rode an Impressive daughter for a while. Rough ride too. 

We all have to start somewhere. I have made some misjudgments about dogs and conformation too. I didn't really know what a 'roach back' REALLY is in dogs (for example) because it wasn't something you see in horses too often, sway backs much more common. I was told here on this forum and elsewhere that I was wrong and I learned something. 

Dogs can get away with a lot more conformationally because they have less mass and don't have the same level of concussive forces in play. But physics is physics and you look at greyhound and compare it to a 'draft' dog like a bernese mountain dog and it's like a TB compares to a Clydesdale.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

mnm said:


> The difference between a AKC Show Stack, SV Show Stack and Natural Stack, can make some difference, but ultimately the structure is there and its not going to change, regardless of how you present.


This is the way I think. I've been looking at, likely literally, thousands of GSD pics, looking specifically for dogs that are stacked in profile, either 4-square or show stacked, to try to understand what I'm looking at structurally. Sometimes it's really amazing just how different a dog can look in different pictures just based on his he's standing. But other times it's clear that a dog's leg is stretching WAY out behind him and that isn't just the stack, it's how he's built. 

Or at least, that's my perception. GSDs, and all other breeds I think, are shown with the Hock in a vertical position. Is it possible for a dog to have a vertical hock when it's leg is REALLY stretched out, or would over-stretching the dog cause the hock to stand at an angle, the way I think it would?

Because that is the first thing I look at. "Is the hock vertical?" (I also make sure his front legs are straight, or I think it throws the picture off) If it's not, I assume the dog is either over-stacked or under-stacked. If over-stacked, the dog might appear to have more angulation/sloped back than he really has. If under-stacked, the dog might have MORE angulation/sloped back than he appears to. 

Am I reading this right? 

Something else I look for, when watching videos, is whether or not the hocks are straight while walking. NOT VERTICAL, but straight. I've seen many, many dogs who can't seem to walk with their legs under them, they kinda crouch/crawl around. It doesn't look right to me at all. When not stacked, I feel a dog should be able to get his legs straight(ish) under him while walking. 

Also I've noticed while looking at LOTS and LOTS of pictures of GSDs, I actually don't prefer a back that's as level as a table. I actually do prefer a slight slope. Well, it depends on the dog. Actually, no -(getting confusing, now I know) - What I prefer is a dog who's topline matches what the standard says.

(paraphrasing)
"the neck should gently flow into the shoulders (withers?) and the straight and LEVEL back, then curve gently into the croup". 

Whenever I've found a dog that matches THAT description, I find it absolutely gorgeous! Especially when matched with legs that are proportioned to the body.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

or use Shaw's Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

for a scholarly report on GSD conformation , including the back.

you can't use equine anatomy for comparison.

using other breeds greyhounds and bernese in comparison to equine specialty (speed or draught) , or , GSD , makes no sense


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

I just went and looked up the AKC standard for another post regarding temperament, and I skimmed the part talking about the Topline - I was very pleased (and amused) to find that the AKC breed standard STILL says that the back should be straight AND level. 

I'm pleased because I thought for sure to save face they would have changed it by now. Maybe something like "The withers are higher than and sloping into the straight back". (because, as mentioned, straight doesn't mean level)

I'm amused because it would appear that none of the breeders showing their dogs are selecting for this. Ski-slopes everywhere!


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Side note:

I just submitted my 50th post, and apparently I'm no longer a Junior Member. Now I'm just a Member! Yay!


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## Linda J Shaw (Jan 4, 2016)

*Correct back*

The term "straight back" started to come into use in North America when American show dogs typically showed excessive slope, and German show dogs showed the typical roach. However, it is not a particularly accurate term. The spine should be straight insofar as the vertebral bodies are aligned, but the topline should show a long, sloping wither, and a straight lumbar back, with a subtle change in angle between them. A back that is straight from T1 to L7 is not correct. Many American showlines have beautiful toplines. So do the British "Alsations" which are still being bred. I have yet to see a German showline with good withers. Working lines are all over the map. Whether the back is level or not depends on a combination of the dog's rear angulation, and its posture. Always best to see the dog gaiting. If the back is normal and correct in motion, it doesn't much matter how it looks instance.

You can see the various breed types here:
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
You can get a free pdf illustrating correct, normal structure here:
www.shawlein.com


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

CarolinaRose said:


> I just went and looked up the AKC standard for another post regarding temperament, and I skimmed the part talking about the Topline - I was very pleased (and amused) to find that the AKC breed standard STILL says that the back should be straight AND level.
> 
> *I'm pleased because I thought for sure to save face they would have changed it by now.* Maybe something like "The withers are higher than and sloping into the straight back". (because, as mentioned, straight doesn't mean level) I'm amused because it would appear that none of the breeders showing their dogs are selecting for this. Ski-slopes everywhere!


The AKC GSD breed standard is controlled by the GSDCA membership, not the AKC.


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## CarolinaRose (Jun 21, 2014)

Well, "they" refers to whoever is in charge of that, which I now remember is the GSDCA. But I'm still surprised it hasn't changed.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Changes can't be made at the drop of the hat. They must be brought to and voted on by the membership, and the AKC limits how often the parent club of a breed can change the standard


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

Look up Dean Calderone in Northern Calif. I believe he's still training dogs. He was in S. Calif. when Zarek was around & may be able to help you acquire a distant descendant or at least one of similar bloodlines. 
Zarek was used quite a bit back then so it shouldn't be too hard to finda descendant. "IIRc, "Schutzhund USA" magazine had a GREAT pic of Zarek waaaaaay back when......


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Plenty of breeders out there that don't show or compete in anything with their dogs that sell "old fashioned straight back" GSDs. They are also referred to as BYBs. If that's what you like knock yourself out and go buy one.


:shrug:


It's a free market.





CarolinaRose said:


> Well, "they" refers to whoever is in charge of that, which I now remember is the GSDCA. But I'm still surprised it hasn't changed.


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