# Ugh.. My pup seams to be in time out more often=(



## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

I don't know what to do any more. My pup is 3 months and he won't stop biting. I've tried everything! He is spending most of the day in time out. As soon as he is out, he is doing it again, but drawing blood every time. And not just on me, my kids. My kids want nothing to do with him because that's all he does. I have tried the toy in mouth, the yelping, the time outs, etc.... It kills me to have him in time out all the time. I want him out with his family and hanging out. I love this guy so much, I just don't know what else to do to make him stop =`( he gets plenty of play , physical and mental. But always seams to be cut short because he will start drawing blood. Help please!! 

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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

I just can't stand how cute he is. . That's one of the cutest faces I've seen. I don't have any great advice for you as you are doing what most suggested. My kids are all grown up, however we did have kids around when Dex was that age and a biting terror, what helped was really wearing him out with walks , leash training and working on sit and come commands with treats. Lots of "ah ah" when he went for kids hands and immediate treats when he listened. The best was to get him very sleepy before kids would come over to play. Of course at this age these dogs are biting machines, but just know it does get easier. It will be a few more months so hang in there


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I would never let my pup bite me to the point where I'm bleeding. If you're allowing that then of course he thinks biting that hard is acceptable behavior. 

I would smack him on the snout with a firm no! when he bites hard. Then I would redirect to a toy. If he engages the toy then praise the heck out of him. He has to know biting you makes you mad and playing with the toy makes you happy. If he doesn't engage the toy and keeps on biting you then time out. 

My pup at that age had to go "jail" a bunch too. Key is to be consistent and it will pass.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

I think spending more time in his crate is creating more energy for him to burn...the family has become a excellent chew toy whenever he's out. He does need to learn to have a soft mouth.

My boy was very mouthy as a pup. I tried the yelping thing...yeah, that just got him more excited. lol

I just wore him out (playing and we were enrolled in obedience classes as well) and gave him things he could chew on (deer antler, raw bone, etc.).

Whenever he became over the top with the mouthing - game over. I walked away from him and did not engage him until he calmed down again. 

Putting him in his crate is fine at times but you have to work though it with him. 

Good luck - it does pass!


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> I would never let my pup bite me to the point where I'm bleeding. If you're allowing that then of course he thinks biting that hard is acceptable behavior.
> 
> I would smack him on the snout with a firm no! when he bites hard. Then I would redirect to a toy. If he engages the toy then praise the heck out of him. He has to know biting you makes you mad and playing with the toy makes you happy. If he doesn't engage the toy and keeps on biting you then time out.
> 
> My pup at that age had to go "jail" a bunch too. Key is to be consistent and it will pass.


He was taught bite inhibition when little., and he is taught that he is not allowed to mouth at all now. It's his first bites that bleeds. Puppy jail made me laugh  thank you for the insight that this will pass . Smack on the nose is the only thing to get him to stop, but only for a short time. But I'm going to be more consistent like you said. 

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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I would never hit a dog. And in this situation, hitting can get the dog more excited. He wants to play with you and the hitting is attention. Courtney had good advice - he needs to be worn out more and continue with redirection and then timeout if he still won't stop.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Courtney said:


> I think spending more time in his crate is creating more energy for him to burn...the family has become a excellent chew toy whenever he's out. He does need to learn to have a soft mouth.
> 
> My boy was very mouthy as a pup. I tried the yelping thing...yeah, that just got him more excited. lol
> 
> ...


That's what I meant about Waring him out. I'll do a first long walk where he is to walk by my side, and no pulling. Then a lot of mental training, when we get inside. Then play fetch or tug on his favorite toy. But threw all this he is biting. I try to stick it out for at least 10-15 min each so a total of 30-45 min then I'll have to put him in his crate, do to the none stop biting. He is very smart, fast learner, but not so fast on not biting 

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I would never hit a dog. And in this situation, hitting can get the dog more excited. He wants to play with you and the hitting is attention. Courtney had good advice - he needs to be worn out more and continue with redirection and then timeout if he still won't stop.


While bouncy puppies receive a lot of behavioral training from their human owners, the process generally starts much earlier for them, when they're still living alongside their canine mothers and siblings. If you ever notice a female dog biting her puppies, you're seeing her strong motherly instincts coming through, via discipline. Instead of biting my pup , a little smack is the only thing to get him to stop, but only for a few. After a few times and he does stop, then time out. And when I say smack I mean with my finger, so it's doesn't hurt. Just shocks him.  but I respect your opinion, I would never beat or bully my pup. But it seams a lot of people these days do, and it's sad. 

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Msmaria said:


> I just can't stand how cute he is. . That's one of the cutest faces I've seen. I don't have any great advice for you as you are doing what most suggested. My kids are all grown up, however we did have kids around when Dex was that age and a biting terror, what helped was really wearing him out with walks , leash training and working on sit and come commands with treats. Lots of "ah ah" when he went for kids hands and immediate treats when he listened. The best was to get him very sleepy before kids would come over to play. Of course at this age these dogs are biting machines, but just know it does get easier. It will be a few more months so hang in there


Thank you for the reply. I think when my kids are around I'll take your advice and leash him to me. That way he won't go after them or play bite them. That way, when my kids come to see him, I'll be right there and treat with good behavior.

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## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

My pup is a little older than yours and I can relate to the crazy biting stage. She wasn't drawing blood though. It isn't easy, but make sure you aren't jerking away when she's biting you or those little teeth can slice you open.

Have you tried a flirt pole to tire him out? I've resorted to taking refuge on the couch and throwing kibble across the room for her to search for to get a break. It's such a challenging time!


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

petite said:


> My pup is a little older than yours and I can relate to the crazy biting stage. She wasn't drawing blood though. It isn't easy, but make sure you aren't jerking away when she's biting you or those little teeth can slice you open.
> 
> Have you tried a flirt pole to tire him out? I've resorted to taking refuge on the couch and throwing kibble across the room for her to search for to get a break. It's such a challenging time!


That seams like a clever idea (( the couch idea )) what is a flirt pole?

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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Diesel7602 said:


> He was taught bite inhibition when little., and he is taught that he is not allowed to mouth at all now. It's his first bites that bleeds. Puppy jail made me laugh  thank you for the insight that this will pass . Smack on the nose is the only thing to get him to stop, but only for a short time. But I'm going to be more consistent like you said.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Hitting a dog--- worst advice ever. 

Boomer seems to have forgotten this post...and yes, I know he insists it was not him posting this:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/337378-help-my-5-month-pup-scares-me.html


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

boomer11 said:


> I would never let my pup bite me to the point where I'm bleeding. If you're allowing that then of course he thinks biting that hard is acceptable behavior.
> 
> I would smack him on the snout with a firm no! when he bites hard. Then I would redirect to a toy. If he engages the toy then praise the heck out of him. He has to know biting you makes you mad and playing with the toy makes you happy. If he doesn't engage the toy and keeps on biting you then time out.
> 
> My pup at that age had to go "jail" a bunch too. Key is to be consistent and it will pass.


Terrible advice. 

Hitting a dog in the face is going to teach him one of two things - To be afraid or to be aggressive.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Sunflowers said:


> Hitting a dog--- worst advice ever.
> 
> Boomer seems to have forgotten this post...and yes, I know he insists it was not him posting this:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/337378-help-my-5-month-pup-scares-me.html





DJEtzel said:


> Terrible advice.
> 
> Hitting a dog in the face is going to teach him one of two things - To be afraid or to be aggressive.




:thumbup:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

OP, when the dog comes out of the crate, have food or toys. Either train with food or play tug with toys so that he doesn't get the chance to bite you. If he redirects and wants to eat you instead, it's an appropriate time out. Otherwise, set him up for success instead of failure.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't try to fix this problem with a one size fits all solution. I'd try non reaction first. Making hands and body parts boring to bite and redirecting to fun objects that are acceptable to bite. Of course his works better when they aren't already at an age where they can make you bleed. 

If that isn't an option you can try positive punishment. You can poke a dog or smack a dog as long as you mark the event that caused the punishment with a no. Then after you see a change in behavior you can take that same smacking hand or poking finger and make friends with them again with it. 

It doesn't matter that it's a puppy. If you want a behavior stopped positive punishment is always an option. Just remember to be tactful and punish the behavior not the dog. If you for instance smack a dog with your hand, after you see the change in behavior you want to see you then use that same hand to pet the dog and show affection to the dog. The puppy will learn the hand or you aren't something they need to be fearful of, they only get used to punish when they do undesirable behaviors. And guess what happens? They stop doing those behaviors as long as you are fair tactful and consistent with the dog.

I'd start off with a nagging intensity of punishment first so the dog has some time to realize that what they are doing is wrong, and if it isn't enough I'll put my foot down and punish at a higher "ouch" intensity and stop it once and for all. Be fair, be tactful, be consistent.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Smack on the nose is the only thing to get him to stop, but only for a short time.*

please do not smack your puppy
he is a baby and that is how they play
squeaky toys were the best for our older pup that has a tendency to grab arms/hands and bites

others said it too
wear the puppy out
and use a leash at all times to your advantage
you can control the puppy with a leash and not let him bite you and the kids

engage his prey drive too as other said
our dog loves that squeaky ball 
i think it is made by NERF and its a green foot ball 
puppy mouth sized


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> *Smack on the nose is the only thing to get him to stop, but only for a short time.*
> 
> please do not smack your puppy
> he is a baby and that is how they play
> ...


That's the thing. He likes toys, but if you pet him ,try to tAke off his leash, brush him, try to love him, put him in his cage, etc.....He will bite. He does it mostly when he gets excited, happy to see me. I've learned to be able to brush him, I have to give him a yummy chewy. I just wish he would let you pet him or love him. But a toy is not enough. A lot has said "to ware him out". Like I said before, he gets warn out, tell he gets grumpy at which he bites more. There's got to be a way to train him not to think biting is not play. Thank you for your help.

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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Smack him! If he clearly isn't listening and is biting you to the point of bleeding then smack him! Don't listen to these people who treat their pets like their first born child and don't discipline. 

Sure pups biting you is play. Teach the pup that type of play with you isn't acceptable. Engaging with you through a toy is acceptable. Tiring the dog out doesn't teach it anything.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Oh I didn't read your prior post. If the pup doesn't want to be touched then stop trying to pet him! If you're bleeding because you're bothering the pup then that's your own fault. 

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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

Google "teach puppy soft mouth"...
here's one example....





Teaching a puppy to have a soft mouth doesn't involve hitting, smacking, retaliation biting or otherwise upping the ante. That would be like play fighting and the pup will bite harder at the least and it's cruel at the most.

Other puppies would know how to get your dog to quit biting too hard and you can do it too. Socializing your pup with other pups is always a good thing for lots of other reasons too.

I've always used the ow, ow, ow (you sometimes have to really scream to get their attention) method until I get the pup to bite softly. I do not try to make them quit biting altogether however. It's always worked for me but maybe I'm just lucky.

Dogs don't understand timeout, if you are doing timeout so you can get away from the pup for awhile that's ok but I don't think the pup will connect timeout with biting.

You have a beautiful dog and soon enough you will wonder how you ever got along without him. He will grow big and strong and will never dream of harming you. You will be his meaning for existing and he will do anything to please you.
Hang in there and good luck.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> Oh I didn't read your prior post. If the pup doesn't want to be touched then stop trying to pet him! If you're bleeding because you're bothering the pup then that's your own fault.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's not just petting, any kind of attention, and if you try to ignore him, then he will just come up to you and get all excited and bite at the same time. He does not bite in aggression, or because he is bothered, it's just what he does. And it's not a bite, walk away, it is a chewing bite, just like what he would do to his toys. Maybe he loves me just as much as his toy, and only wants to chew on his favourites 

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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

Please don't hit the puppy. I say this not because I'm one of those "don't hit dogs" fanatics (I believe there are times when a dog needs to be out in his place), but because he is just a puppy. At his age, he really can't help it (the biting). Hitting him is just going to lead to him being hit more and more and becoming fearful of you or aggressive. You've already learned that hitting doesn't work. Nothing will work because it is just his age. Simply find things that he likes to chew and always have one in his mouth. If he drops it, give him another. And continue to train, train, train. Also, lots of exercise (tug a war worked wonders with mine). When Rocco was that age, my arms and ankles were all scared up. Lol. Just be consistent, be patient, and KNOW that it will get better. Like someone else said, he will become the most amazing creature in your life! Keep strong, keep patient. 


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Nothing will work? Seriously?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

You're creating an endless cycle. The dog is getting no structure or stimulation, so he acts up... then he's put in time out, where he receives even less stimulation... and so on.


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## petite (Apr 5, 2014)

Diesel7602 said:


> That seams like a clever idea (( the couch idea )) what is a flirt pole?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's your new best friend  It sounds like your pup may have some crazy prey drive, he'll probably love this.

The Flirt Pole: Dog Toy or Life Changer? | notes from a dog walker


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Furthermore if it isnt properly marked chances are he doesnt even understand why.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Angelina03 said:


> At his age, he really can't help it (the biting).


Really? So why do pups only bite family members but won't mouth strangers?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right and why feel the need to offer advice on something and be so quick to poo poo another way when you pretty much admitted to never having success in that area yourself?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

boomer11 said:


> Really? So why do pups only bite family members but won't mouth strangers?


Because they're comfortable with you and not with strangers.

You know that honey-moon phase that a lot of dogs go through? Where they act like perfect little angels for up to months before showing their true colors when they settle in and get comfortable? That can happen with strangers/mouthing just as easily. And many pups DO bite strangers just as much as their family.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

you are his friends and how else would a puppy play with their friends other than with their mouths??
that is how they learned from the time they were born then they go in someones house and are told they cannot play that way
well no they cant but to just smack em and shut em down does not work as well as redirecting and stimulating their minds
they need to play and its up to humans to teach them kindly that a more appropriate method exists


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

My pup was a bitey little guy too. I taught him a soft mouth (my choice, some people disagree) but I also made sure that he had lots of things lying around that he could use those teeth on. I gave him marrow bones all the time (FYI, too much marrow = the runs) and I _really_ animated the toys that I wanted his teeth to sink into, lol. It's not good enough to just shove a toy into their little jaws: you have to make it more fun than your frantic yank that's saving your bleeding body parts. Lots of toys, with lots of excitement in them, and zero fun when the teeth hit the flesh and your puppy will eventually learn the difference. Good luck


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## kakarot (Feb 16, 2014)

Ahhh, he looks JUST like my pup when he was 3 months.. without the scar on his muzzle.










But don't give up. Mine's 5 months now and he's still pretty mouthy. Teething pups, doesn't matter what breed, will chew and bite on everything. You have to be consistent with positive reinforcement, not just punishment. If you haven't started obedience training him too, you should start doing that. Mine knew 8 tricks by the time he was 4 months.. and he's currently learning play dead and to crawl on the ground. I feel it builds a better bond.

I learned this from youtube from a trainer who has a GSD as well.. it helped us a bit. Our pup will still mouth on us a little, specially when we're playing, but he's learned that when he bites and we say no, to try to not bite on us or at least be more gentle when we're playing. How To Train Puppy To Stop Biting! - YouTube

He hasn't mouthed on me in a WHILE. Last time he put his teeth on me was when I tried to cut his nails, but that's understandable. Hahah.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Baillif said:


> I don't try to fix this problem with a one size fits all solution. I'd try non reaction first. Making hands and body parts boring to bite and redirecting to fun objects that are acceptable to bite. Of course his works better when they aren't already at an age where they can make you bleed.
> 
> If that isn't an option you can try positive punishment. You can poke a dog or smack a dog as long as you mark the event that caused the punishment with a no. Then after you see a change in behavior you can take that same smacking hand or poking finger and make friends with them again with it.
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is very helpful. 

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

kakarot said:


> Ahhh, he looks JUST like my pup when he was 3 months.. without the scar on his muzzle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My boy is good at tricks too. So far he can, sit, shake, up, down, go to mat, and speek. right now I'm teaching him stay, crawl, and roll over and leave it. As soon as he gets one down, we move to another one. Thank you for the video. Hopefully it helps. 

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

LoveEcho said:


> You're creating an endless cycle. The dog is getting no structure or stimulation, so he acts up... then he's put in time out, where he receives even less stimulation... and so on.


Oh he gets time out for sure when he bite my 5 year old on her had with deep puncture and bleeding. So it's not a endless cycle. He gets puts there when he acts up. 

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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yeah theres kids involved then put that kind of thing to bed fast. Dont listen to the people whos pups are still biting them for months. I deal with bite sport pups and pet client puppies all the time. They never get bitey with me even after being here in board and train for weeks.

Puppies do that kind of thing because for some reason or another youre making it fun. When it stops being fun they stop doing it. That said you do need to provide outlets for that kind of behavior.

http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=343

Some reading you might find interesting.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

My puppies have never bitten me for a week with my methods, for what it's worth. And none of them are aversive, fwiw. 

The day a puppy purposely bites me hard enough to draw blood is the day I realize I'm doing something wrong.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I think it would be harder, when children are involved. I know it was a challenge getting DH on board with me, and he's in his 40's! LOL!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

As with any behavior, if they can't do it, it's going to be eliminated. Prevent the dog from being able to bite kids for a few weeks, work on the training, then reinforce appropriate actions once he kids start getting involved again.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I dont have a bike and I have not rode one in years. Does that mean the learned behavior of riding a bike for me has been eliminated? Nope. 

Take a serial killer and lock him away to where he cant kill anyone for a few years. Does that mean the behavior of murdering people has been eliminated? Not by a long shot.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Baillif said:


> I dont have a bike and I have not rode one in years. Does that mean the learned behavior of riding a bike for me has been eliminated? Nope.
> 
> Take a serial killer and lock him away to where he cant kill anyone for a few years. Does that mean the behavior of murdering people has been eliminated? Not by a long shot.


Lol! Biting is a habit that is being reinforced. You are comparing apples and oranges, here. It's dog training. 

Prevent the behavior from being reinforced, teach them what you'd like instead, then reinforce that.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

unreal 
puppies are playing not being vicious
humans perceive it as aggression is all
train them to bite something else 
they are not psychopathic


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Good advice Baillif" you have to show what is not accepted! How will they know if you don't teach them? If a child is playing in the road! Do you say time for ice cream!!!! No you correct" if you didn't and he wants ice cream " how would he get it without asking? Him.Bill

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the problem is that the methods the op has chosen such as smack on snout 
are not working
which is why they are here asking
so they can go on smacking on snout and putting dog in time out and getting nowhere

or they can try something new and different
i have yet to see what djetzel is describing fail to work

and we are seeing exactly why physical punishment has failed and is failing


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Wow! Been doing it wrong" all this time. Next time I teach out command and he won't out ! I won't correct I'll just put him up. Maybe redirect too a different decoy.lol you must teach the little ones also!! Bill

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

training a puppy to inhibit its bite has nothing to do with sch training


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Lol you missed the point more than one way! Good luck op . Not trying to change your way of thinking I wish you good luck!! P.s. this way is for animal. you have to teach them.Bill

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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Lol! Biting is a habit that is being reinforced. You are comparing apples and oranges, here. It's dog training.
> 
> Prevent the behavior from being reinforced, teach them what you'd like instead, then reinforce that.


Behavior is behavior is behavior and when a history of reinforcement is already present and the behavior already has value making it less available makes it more valuable not less. Zebu loves his frisbee. I dont let him have access to it outside of work because it would devalue it.

Bf skinner did most of his behavior research experiments on animals but was using what he learned to form explainations for human behavior. So no when it comes to operant conditioning it is not apples and oranges.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

missed no point other than people are taking others advice for a puppy and applying it in nonsensical ways 
guess that is par for the course here though  
we are now one step away from being called ar nut jobs i suppose :crazy:

i for one am tired of the notion that dogs need to be struck because they are dogs and should be able to take it


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Not trying to say the puppy is a psychopath and yes the puppy is playing but a kid is being hurt in the process and that is not acceptable to most people. In many situations the dog stops or it ends up rehomed or dead. Just stop the behavior now and cut the bs


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

And babies need to take it get real! Beat the child! Lol no one said beat the dog ! You should love the dog! 
You have a good day ! Bill

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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Have you ever seen a mother correct her pups? They smack em hard when theres a behavior they dont like and want to see stopped. Does it make the pups agressive or fearful of the mother? No. Theres a relationship there. Relationship is important. Nobodys saying just beat the pup or slam it out of nowhere.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the difference is we are not dogs we are humans 
if we were dogs we could mimic what a dog does without looking like a bully or a lunatic in the dogs eyes
and redirection and prevention work better than punishment every time

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/mindgames.html

tell me this does not stand to reason


> I do not believe that dogs view human beings as if they were other dogs. However, I am convinced that when humans act in specific ways that dogs usually react in a predictable manner. A handler can use these specific reactions to modify a dog’s behavior--to help a fearful dog feel more confident and to influence an uncooperative dog into becoming more biddable.


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## FuzzButtMum (Mar 17, 2014)

Diesel7602 said:


> I don't know what to do any more. My pup is 3 months and he won't stop biting. I've tried everything! He is spending most of the day in time out. As soon as he is out, he is doing it again, but drawing blood every time. And not just on me, my kids. My kids want nothing to do with him because that's all he does. I have tried the toy in mouth, the yelping, the time outs, etc.... It kills me to have him in time out all the time. I want him out with his family and hanging out. I love this guy so much, I just don't know what else to do to make him stop =`( he gets plenty of play , physical and mental. But always seams to be cut short because he will start drawing blood. Help please!!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ughh, I really feel for you as I'm in the same situation. Finnick is the perfect puppy apart from his biting!! The only thing that seems to actually be working is that whenever he bites I take him and put him in a room on his own (make sure there's nothing he can get into mischief), I normally put him out in our front hallway as there's not much out there. He cries, I leave him for about 2 minutes and then back in. I don't talk to him and he normally comes in absolutely fine and calm (but follows me around because I think he wants reassurance from me). It sort of "resets" his mindset and calms him. He hates being in his crate at the moment, and we don't use that as a punishment place anyway, so this is the next best thing. It's going well so far. This is what our vet recommended after we'd tried the re directing/time out/yelping etc with no outcome. Maybe you could try something similar to what we've been doing?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

_*removed, insulting and rude *_ Smack the pup on the nose and sternly say no bite. Hard enough to get the pups attention. Then wave it's toy around and act like an idiot. Your pups feelings aren't going to be hurt. It's not going to hate you. It'll love you more cuz suddenly it's not locked up all the time and interacting with you more.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Right you can get the behavior fixed quick before it perhaps escalates and go back to playing with a puppy that is a pleasure to live with and not a menace you have to keep locked away all day.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Not to step on toes. But smacking him on the nose with my finger, so far has been the only thing that works. Yes it is only temporary tell the next bite, but it's the only thing that snaps him out of biting. I know that violence is not the answer to every thing , but some dogs are stronger will and bull headed then others. If he is biting and I yelp loud and ignore him, he thinks it's a game and gets more excited and bites more. If I put a toy in his mouth when he bites, he thinks it's ok to bite because he got rewarded for it with a toy. If I ignore him, he doesn't care. But if I smack him on his nose and tell him no, then he stops. When he tries it again all I have to do is point at him and say no, and he stops. Third time, he gets time out. I can say he is a lot better then when he was younger. I love other posters that have replied this only temporary. I have done a lot of research, what I found that there is always two side. Yes you can do positive reinforcement, but some dogs it does not work. That's why people later end up later putting their dogs in obedience school because their dogs are stubborn, and never stop "the puppy stage" ie biting. Dogs "animal" once where all wild. People didn't domestic them by hugs and kisses.  I found that as long as your fair, not being a bully, structure is the only way. Their is always second opinion, yes you should try positive reinforcement first. but if it doesn't work, there is always a plain B. Every dog is different, every dog learns at different levels. Some are calm, easy going, and some are strong, dominant, Fast learners, slow learners. I've tried all the huggy, kissy, positive reinforcement. It does not work for my dog. He is strong will. One day he will stop all this, but I rather nip it in the butt now then dragging it out for months/ years. One thing is for sure, he is a added love to my family, he will be my best friend. But I will put my foot down when my dog is physical to me or my children, which are babies in my eyes. Which do not deserve to be bullied by our pup.even if it's just puppy play. Yes he is a puppy, but dogs are very smart. My boy know how to sit and shake at 6 weeks. His mind is always growing faster then a child mind, hence dogs are 7 years compared to a humans 1 year, and only live hopefully 15 years. I will never hit, punch , kick my dog. But I will smack him with my finger if he hurts us. But at the same time, I don't hold a grudge and be spiteful towards him. I show him tons of love and and respect when he is doing good and stops his bad behavior. This post was for help, and a lot has answered. I take everything every one has said into consideration. No one is right or wrong, people have different opinions on experience, or with their heart. I will try each one, and see what works and what doesn't. I want to thank y'all for your time to read and respond. I'm glad we are all here to help each other. But people do have their right to their belief and opinions, so hopefully this post didn't hit a nerve and we all don't leave with hurt feelings. 

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

FuzzButtMum said:


> Ughh, I really feel for you as I'm in the same situation. Finnick is the perfect puppy apart from his biting!! The only thing that seems to actually be working is that whenever he bites I take him and put him in a room on his own (make sure there's nothing he can get into mischief), I normally put him out in our front hallway as there's not much out there. He cries, I leave him for about 2 minutes and then back in. I don't talk to him and he normally comes in absolutely fine and calm (but follows me around because I think he wants reassurance from me). It sort of "resets" his mindset and calms him. He hates being in his crate at the moment, and we don't use that as a punishment place anyway, so this is the next best thing. It's going well so far. This is what our vet recommended after we'd tried the re directing/time out/yelping etc with no outcome. Maybe you could try something similar to what we've been doing?


Thank you. I love when you commit on my post because our pups are almost the same. I only have his cage to put him in, since I have no place where he can go with out chewing or braking. I was thinking the bathroom, but then he chews on the cupboards or rips the shower curtain down  my home is a log cabin, so a lot of wood he would love to chew on =) 

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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Diesel7602 said:


> Not to step on toes. But smacking him on the nose with my finger, so far has been the only thing that works. Yes it is only temporary tell the next bite, but it's the only thing that snaps him out of biting. I know that violence is not the answer to every thing , but some dogs are stronger will and bull headed then others. If he is biting and I yelp loud and ignore him, he thinks it's a game and gets more excited and bites more. If I put a toy in his mouth when he bites, he thinks it's ok to bite because he got rewarded for it with a toy. If I ignore him, he doesn't care. But if I smack him on his nose and tell him no, then he stops. When he tries it again all I have to do is point at him and say no, and he stops. Third time, he gets time out. I can say he is a lot better then when he was younger. I love other posters that have replied this only temporary. I have done a lot of research, what I found that there is always two side. Yes you can do positive reinforcement, but some dogs it does not work. That's why people later end up later putting their dogs in obedience school because their dogs are stubborn, and never stop "the puppy stage" ie biting. Dogs "animal" once where all wild. People didn't domestic them by hugs and kisses.  I found that as long as your fair, not being a bully, structure is the only way. Their is always second opinion, yes you should try positive reinforcement first. but if it doesn't work, there is always a plain B. Every dog is different, every dog learns at different levels. Some are calm, easy going, and some are strong, dominant, Fast learners, slow learners. I've tried all the huggy, kissy, positive reinforcement. It does not work for my dog. He is strong will. One day he will stop all this, but I rather nip it in the butt now then dragging it out for months/ years. One thing is for sure, he is a added love to my family, he will be my best friend. But I will put my foot down when my dog is physical to me or my children, which are babies in my eyes. Which do not deserve to be bullied by our pup.even if it's just puppy play. Yes he is a puppy, but dogs are very smart. My boy know how to sit and shake at 6 weeks. His mind is always growing faster then a child mind, hence dogs are 7 years compared to a humans 1 year, and only live hopefully 15 years. I will never hit, punch , kick my dog. But I will smack him with my finger if he hurts us. But at the same time, I don't hold a grudge and be spiteful towards him. I show him tons of love and and respect when he is doing good and stops his bad behavior. This post was for help, and a lot has answered. I take everything every one has said into consideration. No one is right or wrong, people have different opinions on experience, or with their heart. I will try each one, and see what works and what doesn't. I want to thank y'all for your time to read and respond. I'm glad we are all here to help each other. But people do have their right to their belief and opinions, so hopefully this post didn't hit a nerve and we all don't leave with hurt feelings.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well, obviously hitting him isn't working or you wouldn't have started this thread. And no, proper redirection is not rewarding for biting. Eight years later my dog still runs to find a toy to put in his mouth when we're horsing around.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

boomer11 said:


> Don't listen to these wussies who probably can't even walk their dog without getting pulled everywhere. Smack the pup on the nose and sternly say no bite. Hard enough to get the pups attention. Then wave it's toy around and act like an idiot. Your pups feelings aren't going to be hurt. It's not going to hate you. It'll love you more cuz suddenly it's not locked up all the time and interacting with you more.


Should we link back to the "I'm afraid of my dog" post with your bloody arm? :wild:


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Well, obviously hitting him isn't working or you wouldn't have started this thread. And no, proper redirection is not rewarding for biting. Eight years later my dog still runs to find a toy to put in his mouth when we're horsing around.


obviously putting him in time out is not working, since that is what i posted was not working, and looking for alternatives. Nothing was posted in my first post said anything about smacking. This is a subject that later came up, which i did state was the only thing that was working, yes i did say it was temporary with his stubbornness, but that's it not saying that after consistently this will not work.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

DJEtzel said:


> Should we link back to the "I'm afraid of my dog" post with your bloody arm? :wild:


i read this post, yes i would be afraid of my dog too. But something had to have had worked, or i wouldnt be thinking he would sagest this. we all learn from are experience, even at first we fail. people ask for help, then we put what we learn in to play. no one got any where with out failing , or we wouldn't ever learn. And some times, we think we are doing something all wrong, but in fact, we are doing it all right, just took time to profected it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've seen the 'time out' method work for some situations, but sometimes it doesn't.

Kudos to you for being willing to switch gears as needed. 

I think the biggest hurdle for me when I used a form of punishment was keying in on something Bailiff said 'quickly'. I think we humans tend to either stay in punishment mode too long (negative) or we swing in the other direction too far and don't apply an appropriate fair amount of punishment and the switch gears back to the positive. We tend to be that way amongst each other...

But anyhoo, for me the key was learning the appropriate level of punishment and then very quickly switching back into something positive for the dog. After time what I found was we were spending more and more time in the positive and less and less in the negative. 

It's a process that takes some practice and finesse that only comes with experience. 

I also remember and repeat something Carmen said in another thread "Consistency = trust to a dog". When they understand what you want and can depend on it being consistent that is trust. 

So just do your best, keep consistent as you can, be fair like Bailiff said and always strive to get back to positive play after any punishment as quickly as possible.

Also there's a Micheal Ellis video where he talks about a puppy that was just biting and biting and biting. ME believes in only positive with puppies. But one time this particular puppy really just nailed him so hard he reacted with a firm swat. Really what the puppy was doing to ME wasn't fair to Michael either, he didn't deserve to get bit that hard. The puppy had a light bulb moment and they played positively right after that and he didn't have a problem again. 

It's not easy but you'll get there.  



Diesel7602 said:


> *obviously putting him in time out is not working, since that is what i posted was not working, and looking for alternatives.* Nothing was posted in my first post said anything about smacking. This is a subject that later came up, which i did state was the only thing that was working, yes i did say it was temporary with his stubbornness, but that's it not saying that after consistently this will not work.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I could not even touch my puppy till he was 5 month. but kept on redirecting and not playing if he was biting. training would make him focus and not bite. eventually the horrible biting went away.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Diesel7602 said:


> i read this post, yes i would be afraid of my dog too. But something had to have had worked, or i wouldnt be thinking he would sagest this. we all learn from are experience, even at first we fail. people ask for help, then we put what we learn in to play. no one got any where with out failing , or we wouldn't ever learn. And some times, we think we are doing something all wrong, but in fact, we are doing it all right, just took time to profected it.


A lot of things would *work*, but at what cost? I could kick the crap out of my dog and I'm sure he'd stop biting (if he were) as well. 

I teach group dog training classes. You'd be surprised how many dogs are afraid or fearful because of techniques like this.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Should we link back to the "I'm afraid of my dog" post with your bloody arm? :wild:


Lol sure link it! That was my sister while I was in the hospital after a car accident. Yeah it sounds like I'm really afraid of a pup. 

Sorry I didn't mean to hit a nerve with the your dog pulling you everywhere comment


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

When I was a child my grandfather would spank me if I did wrong" he was stern and kind! I loved him very much and miss him" he taught me a lot. I would fight too the death for him! 
I treat my dogs the same love " kind" fair!! And punish if needed" too teach right from wrong!! Must be doing something right! They all are happy and love me.Bill

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## FuzzButtMum (Mar 17, 2014)

Diesel7602 said:


> Thank you. I love when you commit on my post because our pups are almost the same. I only have his cage to put him in, since I have no place where he can go with out chewing or braking. I was thinking the bathroom, but then he chews on the cupboards or rips the shower curtain down  my home is a log cabin, so a lot of wood he would love to chew on =)
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ah, that makes it harder for you...I guess if the time out in his crate isn't working but the little smack on his nose is....then that's the way to go  after all, pups mum would have snapped at him physically also if he behaved in a way she didn't like! 

I'm super jealous of your log cabin!!! I've always wanted to live in one of those  (I actually live in England, so we don't have log cabins....but for some reason it won't let me join the uk GSD forum, so I came here!) 

I like reading your posts because it shows me I'm not alone in Finnicks behaviours and problems etc!!! It's nice to compare our pups and see how they are both coming along


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That's not a fair statement because there's a big difference between "kicking the crap out of the dog" and an appropriate, quick punishment........then redirecting to something positive.



DJEtzel said:


> A lot of things would *work*, but at what cost? I could kick the crap out of my dog and I'm sure he'd stop biting (if he were) as well.
> 
> I teach group dog training classes. You'd be surprised how many dogs are afraid or fearful because of techniques like this.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Didn't your hubby pick him up and really spin, spin, spin him around while holding him in his arms? Then he stopped. I mean it's great that it worked and maybe the OP could try it too....but still Zeus learned he'd rather not get spun and that stopped the biting.

What was good was it was over and done with and you guys went on very happily. Am I remembering correctly?



Neko said:


> I could not even touch my puppy till he was 5 month. but kept on redirecting and not playing if he was biting. training would make him focus and not bite. eventually the horrible biting went away.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

* If I put a toy in his mouth when he bites, he thinks it's ok to bite because he got rewarded for it with a toy.*

lol no
this is something ive seen others worry about and trust me it is not rewarding your puppy
it is called redirection 
you are engaged and playing and you gave the puppy something more appropriate to play with than your arm
the pup goes from playing with your arm to playing with a toy seamlessly
the pup is not thinking OH i got rewarded!! 
trust me on that! 

its no wonder problems drag on like this if people actually think replacing your arm or hand with a toy is an issue!

slapping and smacking is not working at all so why continue?

it is 10x easier to teach a dog or puppy what to do than what not to do 

so your goal is to teach it what to chew on rather than continue uselessly punishing it for chewing on the wrong thing which is your arm

your bag of tricks for getting puppy to stop using you and the kids as a chew toy has got to be bigger than slapping the dog on the very most sensitive part of it's body


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

my boy diesel said:


> * If I put a toy in his mouth when he bites, he thinks it's ok to bite because he got rewarded for it with a toy.*
> 
> lol no
> this is something ive seen others worry about and trust me it is not rewarding your puppy
> ...


Great explanation!




OP - seems like you've made up your mind. I hope for your sake that your dog does not become fearful of your physical corrections - that could lead to much bigger problems (like biting your kid because the kid's hand came toward his face).


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

boomer11 said:


> Lol sure link it! That was my sister while I was in the hospital after a car accident. Yeah it sounds like I'm really afraid of a pup.
> 
> Sorry I didn't mean to hit a nerve with the your dog pulling you everywhere comment


 It's your story and you're sticking to it!  It's already been linked and I doubt anyone believes your new story. 

My dogs DO pull be quite a bit on a leash. I haven't leashed trained them because they aren't ever on leashes. :shocked:



Gwenhwyfair said:


> That's not a fair statement because there's a big difference between "kicking the crap out of the dog" and an appropriate, quick punishment........then redirecting to something positive.


 There isn't. It's an aversive, regardless of what part of my body I use to strike the dog. Chances are, the dog is going to make the correlation between that pain and your hand, and will react to hands in some way, shape, or form in the future as I've seen so many times.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Why does these always end up all or nothing with these types of convos?

I think that we aren't giving dogs and even puppies enough credit. They can learn at only a few weeks old to not bite their littermates too hard when playing, they can't learn that with humans without the humans having to endure it for months on end?

IMO the problem is people who use punishment too much, too harshly or unfairly and then it causes problems. The flip side of the coin is too much molly coddling makes a lot of dogs (like the little yappers we always talk about) such unmanageable spoiled brats.

It's not really that black and white guys......


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've seen it too, when it was done too harshly, in anger, too long.

But you can't equate "kicking the crap out of the dog" with for instance the story Micheal Ellis shared...I've shared that video before. I mean here's a guy that strives for happy, upbeat dogs who love working with their handlers.

A fair and appropriate punishment is different from heavy handed abusive treatment.





DJEtzel said:


> <snipped>
> 
> 
> There isn't. It's an aversive, regardless of what part of my body I use to strike the dog. Chances are, the dog is going to make the correlation between that pain and your hand, and will react to hands in some way, shape, or form in the future as I've seen so many times.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if we spoke the same language yes they would learn 
thing is slapping it on its muzzle is not in any way the same language as they are speaking


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> * If I put a toy in his mouth when he bites, he thinks it's ok to bite because he got rewarded for it with a toy.*
> 
> lol no
> this is something ive seen others worry about and trust me it is not rewarding your puppy
> ...


You keep saying the physical punishment isn't working....but OP has said several times the ONLY thing that's working is a quick/stern finger tap on the nose. From everything I've read so far, it seems OP didn't understand why TIME OUT wasn't working. The finger thing was working, he just needed to talk about timing, fast switch to positive, etc....

I really like your first post Gwen. Carmen talked about a quick muzzle pinch and then switch right back into positive. It's all about timing and switching back in fast (like you said). 

People hear "punish" and "puppy" and they get all up in arms. Just like everything else everyone gets into a tizzy about on here, it's all about fairness, balance, consistency, and clarity. If you have those things, it'll work. Of course you shouldn't chuck your puppy across the room, or hit him to the point where he is cowering in a corner....a stern pinch/poke and then switching back into positive with those same hands?? I don't think that's abuse.

I just believe those that are up in arms are picturing some tiny, beaten, abused, puppy. I look at whatever the "punishment" is, as something that's in the moment and kind of a wake up call, the dog probably pauses, and then gets back into playing...Like Gwen described the ME video. Every dog is different, the methods that worked on one dog may not work on another (ME video...he believes in all positive, yet he even gave a good slap to a puppy that needed it). Especially when the behavior is now kind of ingrained and reinforced.

Good luck OP!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

To a certain extent, I don't think you're giving dogs enough credit. They co-evolved with humans after all.....and more and more studies are showing they understand a lot more then we often realize. 

We aren't going to bite them with our teeth but they understand a nip or a swat are a physical punishment for a misdeed.

They also understand consistency and fairness and if those aren't present then yeah, problems could arise. 



my boy diesel said:


> if we spoke the same language yes they would learn
> thing is slapping it on its muzzle is not in any way the same language as they are speaking


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> It's your story and you're sticking to it!  It's already been linked and I doubt anyone believes your new story.
> 
> My dogs DO pull be quite a bit on a leash. I haven't leashed trained them because they aren't ever on leashes. :shocked:
> 
> ...


If that were true then every time a prong collar came out on a dog that was trained on a prong they would cower and show avoidance/fear etc...but dogs trained *properly* on the prong won't be that way. Most (I believe Lies talks about this with her dogs) are THRILLED at the idea of their prong, because it means fun. That's why Blitz said use that same hand that dealt the punishment to engage the pup in play.

Are there dogs that cower from prongs, ecollars, etc...absolutely....they were trained WRONG on those tools. It's the same thing, imho.

ETA: You "I've seen so many times" is referring to rescue dogs, right? I wouldn't be using those as examples of dogs that were trained fairly, balanced, clear, etc...they are in rescue for a reason (usually dumb owners).


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> It's your story and you're sticking to it!  It's already been linked and I doubt anyone believes your new story.
> 
> My dogs DO pull be quite a bit on a leash. I haven't leashed trained them because they aren't ever on leashes. :shocked:
> 
> ...


If you dont mark or are not fair and not consistent then yeah that is a possibility but if you are guess what? You wont be punishing your dog often. Aversives done right get rid of undesired behaviors very quickly. If you are punishing often for the same behavior you are doing it wrong.

How often per day do you think i have to punish my dog? I expect a ton from him behavior wise. He spends more time in behavior than out of it. I rarely punish him because he knows the deal. Hes not afraid of me or my hand or the ecollar or the prong collar or my foot. Why? Because there is context.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup:

More then anything, people and pups, that's what we all want.

Just because we humans are often lousy and unfair at administering punishment doesn't mean appropriate and fair punishment is ineffective or harmful.





DaniFani said:


> You keep saying the physical punishment isn't working....but OP has said several times the ONLY thing that's working is a quick/stern finger tap on the nose. From everything I've read so far, it seems OP didn't understand why TIME OUT wasn't working. The finger thing was working, he just needed to talk about timing, fast switch to positive, etc....
> 
> I really like your first post Gwen. Carmen talked about a quick muzzle pinch and then switch right back into positive. It's all about timing and switching back in fast (like you said).
> 
> ...


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

I read the boomer "I'm scared of my dog" post and right off the bat the tone of voice of that writing sounds NOTHING like his other posts. I totally believe that it wasn't in seriousness or it was another person (sister) writing it.


That being said...

I swatted my puppy a few times. I grabbed her mouth gently and held it closed for a second if she got too wound up, I gave her time outs. Never had a problem with biting and never had a problem with damaging our relationship. 

I really don't see the harm in showing that you won't tolerate some behaviors. My dog acted like an ass on leash for a long time and it vanished as soon as I communicated that that would not be tolerated. Biting me? Same deal. 

Stick to something that works for you. if you have a hyper-sensitive dog that cowers at even a raise of a voice, sure I'd try something else, but most dogs can bounce back completely fine from a light swat if they're being inappropriate.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

DaniFani said:


> If that were true then every time a prong collar came out on a dog that was trained on a prong they would cower and show avoidance/fear etc...but dogs trained *properly* on the prong won't be that way. Most (I believe Lies talks about this with her dogs) are THRILLED at the idea of their prong, because it means fun. That's why Blitz said use that same hand that dealt the punishment to engage the pup in play.
> 
> Are there dogs that cower from prongs, ecollars, etc...absolutely....they were trained WRONG on those tools. It's the same thing, imho.
> 
> ETA: You "I've seen so many times" is referring to rescue dogs, right? I wouldn't be using those as examples of dogs that were trained fairly, balanced, clear, etc...they are in rescue for a reason (usually dumb owners).


No, prongs are used to correct a dog for non-compliance. That is not the same thing as punishing a dog for doing something it has never been taught not to do when he doesn't know what he's doing wrong. 

And no. I'm talking about dogs/puppies in my training classes, which I clearly stated.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good point in blue, it also depends on the individual dog. Our Aussie is a big marshmellow and even a firm tone of voice is enough to stop her in her tracks. 



mego said:


> <snipped>
> 
> I swatted my puppy a few times. I grabbed her mouth gently and held it closed for a second if she got too wound up, I gave her time outs. Never had a problem with biting and never had a problem with damaging our relationship.
> 
> ...


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> No, prongs are used to correct a dog for non-compliance. *That is not the same thing as punishing a dog for doing something it has never been taught not to do when he doesn't know what he's doing wrong. *
> 
> And no. I'm talking about dogs/puppies in my training classes, which I clearly stated.


I completely disagree. IF your timing is right, it is absolutely clear to the dog that BITING is what you are punishing for. I guess we will agree to disagree. I have seen a light swat (like mego described) and muzzle smack (like ME used), work just as much as you have seen your methods work. Every dog is different, but as Gwen said..."Just because we humans are often lousy and unfair at administering punishment doesn't mean appropriate and fair punishment is ineffective or harmful."


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

But if the pup was with it's mother and litter long enough, it was taught.

It's a matter of reinforcing it with the human pack.....

Like Dani said, that doesn't mean someone should revert to extremes in punishing the pup and definitely a person can try time outs and redirecting first. However, when the pup starts drawing blood on a 5 year old in the family and it's just getting worse, taking the next appropriate step is fair and the pup should learn biting people is not allowed.



DJEtzel said:


> No, prongs are used to correct a dog for non-compliance. That is not the same thing as punishing a dog for doing something it has never been taught not to do when he doesn't know what he's doing wrong.
> 
> And no. I'm talking about dogs/puppies in my training classes, which I clearly stated.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> There isn't. It's an aversive, regardless of what part of my body I use to strike the dog. Chances are, the dog is going to make the correlation between that pain and your hand, and will react to hands in some way, shape, or form in the future as I've seen so many times.


Just stop now. You're just embarrassing yourself. A hand can punish but a hand can also be a source of good. If the hand rewards twice as much as it punishes then the dog thinks of the hand as a good thing. 

If someone has to hit the pup every day then clearly that's not training because the dog isn't getting it. Same with someone who has to yank on the prong on every walk. If the dogs you are seeing are scared of hands then those hands have been used to abuse and not train. 

Aversive conditioning isn't about punishing a dog into submission. It's about setting boundaries.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Didn't your hubby pick him up and really spin, spin, spin him around while holding him in his arms? Then he stopped. I mean it's great that it worked and maybe the OP could try it too....but still Zeus learned he'd rather not get spun and that stopped the biting.
> 
> What was good was it was over and done with and you guys went on very happily. Am I remembering correctly?


Haha Dizzy Time!!!!!! and yes he screamed as he did it lol. And when we say "spin". he was holding him carefully cradled. He was just being silly he had no idea dog would hate it! he makes himself dizzy all the time circling over sprinkler, but I guess this was something els. Also Zeus was a bit older.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

boomer11 said:


> Just stop now. You're just embarrassing yourself. A hand can punish but a hand can also be a source of good. If the hand rewards twice as much as it punishes then the dog thinks of the hand as a good thing.
> 
> If someone has to hit the pup every day then clearly that's not training because the dog isn't getting it. Same with someone who has to yank on the prong on every walk. If the dogs you are seeing are scared of hands then those hands have been used to abuse and not train.
> 
> Aversive conditioning isn't about punishing a dog into submission. It's about setting boundaries.


I don't think she is embarrassing herself, just adding her opinion. I happen to agree with her about using the hand as an aversive. That may be why my dog is hand shy.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Why does these always end up all or nothing with these types of convos?
> 
> I think that we aren't giving dogs and even puppies enough credit. They can learn at only a few weeks old to not bite their littermates too hard when playing, they can't learn that with humans without the humans having to endure it for months on end?
> 
> ...


:thumbup:

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> You keep saying the physical punishment isn't working....but OP has said several times the ONLY thing that's working is a quick/stern finger tap on the nose. From everything I've read so far, it seems OP didn't understand why TIME OUT wasn't working. The finger thing was working, he just needed to talk about timing, fast switch to positive, etc....
> 
> I really like your first post Gwen. Carmen talked about a quick muzzle pinch and then switch right back into positive. It's all about timing and switching back in fast (like you said).
> 
> ...


Thank you. I started to sound like a broken record... And the one about my dog doesn't get enough exercise... When I have clearly said he does many times.:banghead: 

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

it works for a short time
it does not fix the issue
we are talking long term solution 
it is an ongoing process and those in favor of smacking the dog seem to think it is helping
we can all acknowledge that it wont fix the issue long term


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> it works for a short time
> it does not fix the issue
> we are talking long term solution
> it is an ongoing process and those in favor of smacking the dog seem to think it is helping
> we can all acknowledge that it wont fix the issue long term


How many honestly handler aggressive dogs have you trained? What was your training approach?

David Winners


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

a 3 mos old biting puppy?? plenty! it is how puppies learned to play in their litters! 
i can tell you hitting them does nothing except make them more aggressive and amps them up

this is even the ops observation on page one
*Smack on the nose is the only thing to get him to stop, but only for a short time.*

and why are you singling me out when at least 4-5 others here have the same opinion


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> it works for a short time
> it does not fix the issue
> we are talking long term solution
> it is an ongoing process and those in favor of smacking the dog seem to think it is helping
> we can all acknowledge that it wont fix the issue long term


Positive punishment has worked for hundreds of years.

These arguments aren't really about what works or doesn't they are about peoples mindsets. Some people feel that anything aversive is abuse. It's not but could be just like most things.

If re-direction and treats are your (general your) thing that's great but it is not necessary to try to convert everyone else.

I for example have taught every dog I have owned not to counter surf by a stern no and placing their feet back on the floor. It lasted throughout their lives. Not complicated or abusive and I didn't even need a treat bag.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> a 3 mos old biting puppy?? plenty! it is how puppies learned to play in their litters!
> i can tell you hitting them does nothing except make them more aggressive and amps them up
> 
> this is even the ops observation on page one
> ...


I was just looking for your perspective.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

And I don't recommend smacking puppies. I scruff, no shaking or anything, with a verbal correction and hold the pup up until it calms down, then we do something fun that doesn't involve biting me.

David Winners


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

the op wouldnt have started a thread if what he was doing was working


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> the op wouldnt have started a thread if what he was doing was working


It's a she  and yes time out is not working. 

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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> And I don't recommend smacking puppies. I scruff, no shaking or anything, with a verbal correction and hold the pup up until it calms down, then we do something fun that doesn't involve biting me.
> 
> David Winners


Curious, why scruff and not the muzzle/nose/whatever? I've mostly seen punishment in relation to the mouth/muzzle area, heard of scruffing for biting, just curious why you recommend it. 

MBD...you make statements like "we can all agree this won't work in the long run." Lots of people are telling you it can and does absolutely work in the long run. That's the beauty of balanced punishment with reward, it is usually super fast. My dog tried to run up on my son (son 2 years old, dog three months old) and jump on my son's head. I didn't "put him up in a kennel" to deal with it. I put a long line on him, and stepped on it as he was jumping, with a stern "No!" That dog learned after TWO times of that he was NOT allowed to jump on my son (it was actually cute, he learned to jump straight up and lick my son's face, without touching him with any other part of his body).

Can't remember how we stopped the biting, I think it was a stern "No!" and a finger snap on the muzzle? Either way, it was such an unbelievable short amount of time, that "alligator phase" never happened at my house. 

My dog bites EVERYTHING, he's a 7 month old hellion(who's already showing very promising high prey drive, hard grips, nice confidence, and little pieces of aggression in bitework already), but he has never jumped on or play bit my son or people...ever again (outside of the first 2/3 times he tried it and learned it's unacceptable)...so yeah...it does work long term, and trust me, he doesn't fear my hands at all lol. I've also seen it work with plenty of the young dogs at our club. You are making such large, over generalized statements, "it won't work in the long run." No. It can. Has. And if done properly, does (punishment). Just like DJ's method has worked for her, and your methods have worked for you. I'm not going around saying those methods WILL NOT WORK...they aren't working for OP...so here's some other options.

You can speak all you want for the OP, he's responded plenty of times clarifying, yet you are still trying to speak for him to further your point....it's an interesting tactic.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

I think in the long run, he will be better, not turn aggressive as others have posted. He is the happiest puppy ever. No head shy, no cowering. If I go to pet his head, There is no scareness. I always show my hands are a great thing. It provides food, treats, pets love, ect . But firm if he is out of hands. And I don't think smacking his muzzle will last, not because it doesn't work, but because it does work and it won't take long before he learns biting is UN exsptable. I want to know for people that are against this, and do positive reinforcement, how long did your dog bite you and when did they stop? Vs people who have used this method, and how long did it take for their pup to stop?. I'm quite curious. looks like a quite happy pup to me 

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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Nice post!!!!! Dani

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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Pretty pup! Diesel7602

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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

DaniFani said:


> Curious, why scruff and not the muzzle/nose/whatever? I've mostly seen punishment in relation to the mouth/muzzle area, heard of scruffing for biting, just curious why you recommend it.


I feel it takes the chaos / energy out of the dog and lets them focus. It's really important to let them settle before you put them down, then you reward the calm with fun.

I don't like slapping because it just amps up the play, especially with the kind of dogs I like  If I can get the dog to understand the aversive by making it clear, in the moment, what is bad and then good, that's a win win for me. It only takes a couple times and they stop shredding you. I still get bit when they are learning targeting and ball manners and stuff, but the landsharking of people just doesn't happen in my house.

I do the same thing with a flat collar on older dogs that mouth like crazy too. Those I really don't like to slap unless it's reflex taking over. They can learn to target your hand next time, and that just sucks.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I feel it takes the chaos / energy out of the dog and lets them focus. It's really important to let them settle before you put them down, then you reward the calm with fun.
> 
> I don't like slapping because it just amps up the play, especially with the kind of dogs I like  If I can get the dog to understand the aversive by making it clear, in the moment, what is bad and then good, that's a win win for me. It only takes a couple times and they stop shredding you. I still get bit when they are learning targeting and ball manners and stuff, but the landsharking of people just doesn't happen in my house.
> 
> I do the same thing with a flat collar on older dogs that mouth like crazy too. Those I really don't like to slap unless it's reflex taking over. They can learn to target your hand next time, and that just sucks.


Thanks for the explanation . I like the idea of scruffing as well as picking up to calm them. Makes sense. I play tug now with my 7 month old with pushing, shoving, hitting (in play), moving him with my feet, and it AMPS him up, he loves it. I can see, especially with an older pup, the hitting making it even MORE enjoyable haha.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> And I don't recommend smacking puppies. I scruff, no shaking or anything, with a verbal correction and hold the pup up until it calms down, then we do something fun that doesn't involve biting me.
> 
> David Winners


I agree--this works, and it's pretty natural. The next step up, on a natural basis, would be taking the puppy's muzzle or whole head in your teeth and holding it until it quiets down. MMmmm, I'll vote for the scruff, LOL.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Punishment is punishment in terms of operant conditioning. If it stops the behavior great if not it wasn't punishing enough or there is something else going on on the level of classical conditioning or maybe the behavior is being reinforced in another way.

Hands down the best way to deal with this kind of thing is never reinforce the puppy for biting you in the first place, but in the OPs case that isn't an option anymore.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks Baillif and David. Your posts have been helpful and informative....



(btw so true about some pups/dogs they think quick hand movements are an invitation to play MORE! Come to think of it I've actually seen that happen myself. LOL!)


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

This thread is a good example of how different tactics work for different dogs. Obviously if your dog cowers into submission when you just raise your voice, you probably don't need to pop it on the muzzle. If your dog blows off one gentle tactic after another, you find what level of correction gets your dogs attention, and you use it consistently till the dog gets it. I'm no expert as anyone knows, but you don't have to be a professional to figure out what works with your own dog. Nothing wrong with getting suggestions from others who have been through the same thing, but the bottom line to me is you do what works with the dog you have.

That said, I wrote nearly the same post as the OP a year or so ago, and I can't claim any credit for her stopping the biting! She seemed to just grow out of overnight. I did follow a lot of the advice I got here, though, so who knows, maybe it worked! It seemed more like she just got beyond being sharky being any fun.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i said
*i can tell you hitting them does nothing except make them more aggressive and amps them up*

then winners said
*I don't like slapping because it just amps up the play,*

and only now you believe it dani?
where is that shaking my head smiley?

oh 
*You can speak all you want for the OP,*
anyone can read on page one they said slapping the muzzle works but only for a short time
about the 4th post they made in this thread they were speaking of slapping the muzzle not just time out


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If you get them hard enough it stops being fun for them. If you have an especially hard puppy where the gap between stopping the behavior and causing physical damage to the puppy is getting to be a fine line then yes use another tactic. 

He specifically mentioned it amps up the play with a certain kind of puppy (I love those puppies too btw). I've seen puppies where scruffing makes them FURIOUS. The kind of puppies that continue to amp up under that kind of punishment are an exception not the rule. They're often the same puppy where if you tried to yelp to teach bite inhibition they just get more excited about being able to hurt you and then bite harder. 

Point being use what works. But don't forget the order of things. Mark the behavior punish appropriately and then make friends when you see the change in behavior you want.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well with all those assessments i agree
dont leave out the possibility of them becoming quite hand shy when using the smack technique

as you said earlier (probably the best thing in the thread) the key is prevention anyway

and then that leaves people who really dont know or arent sure which method to use to get them to stop the biting


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Hand shyness won't happen if you mark the behavior with a no first, and then after punishing you use the same hand to praise and pet the change in behavior. By doing this you purify what was punished in the mind of the dog.

Marking punishment is just as important as marking a reward.

I'll give you a sport example. A person was using an e collar to punish their dog for not outing off a decoy and recalling when they heard a whistle being blown.

Because they did not mark the act of not outing the dog learned to associate the whistle blow as a precursor to an e collar shock. And even if the collar wasn't used the dog would scream like it was being zapped when it heard the whistle even when it outted. 

This went away when the person started marking the incorrect choice first and after a few trials the dog realized the whistle and the e collar punishment was not associates unless they failed at the behavior and heard the word no.

If you are going to punish use correct procedure.

Do it right or don't do it at all.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Thank y'all for your post. I would love to up date when his biting has stopped. I'll let y'all know whAt worked and what didn't. I'm taking everything in consideration. I'm currently using the smack on his muzzle, which so far works. If it ends up I don't need to do that any more or didn't work I know I have more options. And I'll let y'all no if smacking the muzzle caused any shyness or aggression in the future.

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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Mbd, where did I say I agree that a snap on the muzzle won't work? I've said over and over I think it can work, so can scuffing, whatever method worked for you... You really are good at interpreting things in your favor or in some cases speaking for someone and debating what you spoke lol. Glad blitz finally was able to make you understand. ;-) You keep going back to hand shyness, it's like anti prong people continually pointing out you can use the prong wrong, or the ecollar. Everyone has said anything can be misused and abused, and wouldn't suggest doing it inappropriately. 

Anyway, op, glad you got some answers. Good luck, keep us posted.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

dani you are confused


*I'm taking everything in consideration. I'm currently using the smack on his muzzle, which so far works.*

op one thing here 
if it actually worked then you would not have to do it again
but hey it is your dog
good luck


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> op one thing here
> _*if it actually worked then you would not have to do it again*_
> but hey it is your dog
> good luck


Hate to butt in here and beat a dead horse, but this statement is quite an extreme. I could say the same thing for a timeout. If it worked to stop biting you'd only have to stick your dog in a timeout once and the landsharking would be over, or only redirect once. 

EVERYTHING takes consistency and often multiple instances where a "behavior --> result" pathway is repeated in order to firmly establish that connection. The connection can be established much quicker for the harsher result (punishment in this instance), but that's where you muddy that line between hard enough to stop a behavior and too hard causing fear


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mego said:


> Hate to butt in here and beat a dead horse, but this statement is quite an extreme. I could say the same thing for a timeout. If it worked to stop biting you'd only have to stick your dog in a timeout once and the landsharking would be over, or only redirect once.
> 
> EVERYTHING takes consistency and often multiple instances where a "behavior --> result" pathway is repeated in order to firmly establish that connection. The connection can be established much quicker for the harsher result (punishment in this instance), but that's where you muddy that line between hard enough to stop a behavior and too hard causing fear[/QUOT
> 
> ...


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

punishment used incorrectly yes
discipline is teaching and can be done negatively or positively
too many people in general punish dogs and puppies for their own failings
with that i will always have an issue


*I could say the same thing for a timeout.*
time out for a dog does very little to teach a dog anything because dogs are not humans and the concept for time out is based on human models not dog models
the only time out that *might* work would be to remove yourself from the situation and leave the dog 
not sticking the dog in a crate and expecting it to know why it got stuck there and then modify its behavior based on that time out


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> punishment used incorrectly yes
> discipline is teaching and can be done negatively or positively
> too many people in general punish dogs and puppies for their own failings
> with that i will always have an issue
> ...


I have issues with that too, as I'm sure 99 percent of people here do. That goes beyond being against punishment, that's being against people that in general train incorrectly. No one likes a trainer who punishes unfairly, but in the case of biting, I find it completely fair to punish the dog if you mark what they're doing wrong

and I agree on timeouts being useless as "punishments". I don't use them to change a behavior. I use them when my dog needs to relax. I was just commenting on how some people here think that crating a dog works to reduce biting because it 'takes the play away' but nothing is generally a one time fix.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

And I think withholding food from whales, dolphins, dogs or anything else so they will perform better when trained and treated is a type of punishment.

Would add that it is a punishment that the animal can not possibly understand.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

mego said:


> I have issues with that too, as I'm sure 99 percent of people here do. That goes beyond being against punishment, that's being against people that in general train incorrectly. No one likes a trainer who punishes unfairly, but in the case of biting, I find it completely fair to punish the dog if you mark what they're doing wrong
> 
> and I agree on timeouts being useless as "punishments". I don't use them to change a behavior. I use them when my dog needs to relax. I was just commenting on how some people here think that crating a dog works to reduce biting because it 'takes the play away' but nothing is generally a one time fix.


Nicely said 

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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> dani you are confused
> 
> 
> *I'm taking everything in consideration. I'm currently using the smack on his muzzle, which so far works.*
> ...


You're being extremely silly. If I raised a piece of kibble above my dogs head said sit and the dog sits and I clicked and treated and just did it once and then came back later and asked for a sit a few minutes later and the dog just stares at me like I have three heads should I just throw up my arms and exclaim oh I guess that clicker training stuff doesn't work? No of course not.

It's called conditioning for a reason. By it's very definition it requires some repetition to create or stop a behavior. Especially when trying to stop a behavior with a history of positive reinforcement. Now are there ways to make the process go faster? Sure. You could "blow up the dog."


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Here is my EOF (Escalation Of Force) with a puppy.

First couple times it bites, I just hold my hand there and wait it out. No noises, no yelps, no movement at all. I am the most boring thing ever. I wait it out. After the pup gets bored and lets go, looking for more excitement, I provide that excitement with something appropriate.

If the biting stops, great. If not, I escalate.

The next time the pup bites, I calmly grab some scruff, pick it up and give a calm but stern verbal correction, looking into the puppy's eyes like I mean business. I hold them until they are calm, set them down and then play some tug. I do this a few times as long as things are getting better and not worse. Usually this stops all but the nastiest of puppies.

If the pup is really a monster, I'm I want to point out that I am really OK if he is  , he may get even more into the fight when he's scruffed, like Baillif said. If this happens I will smack a dog. Usually it's when they bite hard enough that it really hurts and it's an instantaneous reaction. When you see the pup change gears in it's head, you reward and resume with proper play.

I should have written it up like this before, but I was really busy and on my phone.

It is important to me in any stage of training and development to apply the most effective training possible, allowing the most learning with the least negative fallout. This includes scaling any aversive to the temperament of the dog, the excitement of the situation, in relation to previous aversives, the response to the last aversive... it's a feel kind of thing. It also includes the opposite. Scaling rewards with the same factors in mind. You always have to consider competing motivators in training. If biting you is worth going through the aversive or negative training you are applying, the biting is more rewarding and will continue. If the aversive you apply is too strong, the bond with the dog and learning will suffer. If the positive reward is timed improperly or too strong, understanding will not happen and learning fails.

MDB, you are failing to see the forest for the trees. You can't pick tiny bits out of the big picture of training and exploit them. Training doesn't work that way. The overall picture of the dog and your bond doesn't come down to a single event in 99% of cases, unless that event is so traumatic that the dog is constantly affected by it. 

A particularly soft dog can be affected negatively by a shout or stern look. A really hard dog can take a level 10 correction and go right back to play a second later. The relationship you have built with the pup plays into this as well. If 95% of the time, your hand means awesome stuff, and 5% of the time, it means an aversive that is understood by the dog, the 95% wins out. It is all about the dog understanding what the rules, rewards and consequences are for life. Clear and concise communication allows this to happen. If your timing sucks, so will your relationship, so aversives will have a greater negative impact on the dog. If your communication and timing are great, the dog will understand that this thing caused the correction and should be avoided.

Positive punishment is part of life. We learn through mistakes and rewards. To believe that you can shelter a dog from anything negative in life and have it grow up with a realistic understanding of the world is a fallacy IMO. It is going to get stepped on when underfoot, knock it's head into stuff when playing, get stung on the nose by a bee, step on something pokey in the garage, pull a vase off the end table on top of itself... bad stuff happens to living things and they learn from these experiences what not to do. Good stuff happens and they learn to repeat those behaviors to get rewards.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Timeouts can be used to negative punish dogs while they were doing something they enjoyed. These are brief timeouts though. For example I am playing tug with my dog and he refuses to out when asked. I can mark the disobedience stop the game and punish the dog that way. You could encourage soft mouth by timing out the puppy raising him above your head and ignoring him for a few seconds for a hard bite. 

If you've already started positive punishment with the dog you should keep with it. It needs to be consistent otherwise it's not training it's abuse.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

anyone who has raised a child knows exactly all that you typed out david
i just dont feel like typing it all out but i see the forest just fine


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

boomer11 said:


> Just stop now. You're just embarrassing yourself. A hand can punish but a hand can also be a source of good. If the hand rewards twice as much as it punishes then the dog thinks of the hand as a good thing.
> 
> If someone has to hit the pup every day then clearly that's not training because the dog isn't getting it. Same with someone who has to yank on the prong on every walk. If the dogs you are seeing are scared of hands then those hands have been used to abuse and not train.
> 
> Aversive conditioning isn't about punishing a dog into submission. It's about setting boundaries.


 I'm not embarrassing myself. I've trained all of my dogs with my method and have never had a dog like yours or the one here. I teach these methods in my classes and they work. 

I have no doubt it *could* work, with the correct dog of suitable temperament, and the correct trainer with suitable timing. 

I don't, however, think that is most dogs or most people, or it's something you can safely describe over the internet, and I do not think it should be the first, second, or third method tried to fix a problem. Quick fix, that a lot could go wrong with, very easily. No one's timing is perfect - is your dog going to be forgiving if your timing isn't clear a few times, or is he going to become afraid instantly and have that stick with him? We do not all have stable, strong-nerved dogs that may be able to handle it. 

And, you know, I prefer preventing a problem and creating a suitable interaction prior to punishment.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Timeouts can be used to negative punish dogs while they were doing something they enjoyed. These are brief timeouts though. For example I am playing tug with my dog and he refuses to out when asked. I can mark the disobedience stop the game and punish the dog that way.*
and we have come full circle
because that is exactly what the puppys siblings do


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Good post Baillif"David Winners! Now I get the old saying " you can lead a horse to water " but you can't make him drink! Lol Bill

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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> anyone who has raised a child knows exactly all that you typed out david
> i just dont feel like typing it all out but i see the forest just fine


So you are avoiding the big picture in the conversation, picking out little things and focusing on them because you don't feel like taking the time to type things out. 

You basically agreed with what I posted, but all your posts prior to this were contrary in nature to the process I outlined.

I'm just confused at this point about what you are trying to communicate. You aren't consistent in your argument.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> *Timeouts can be used to negative punish dogs while they were doing something they enjoyed. These are brief timeouts though. For example I am playing tug with my dog and he refuses to out when asked. I can mark the disobedience stop the game and punish the dog that way.*
> and we have come full circle
> because that is exactly what the puppys siblings do


They positive punish too. Ever see a sibling get pissed and attack in retaliation? Want to take a guess as to which is quicker and more effective?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not embarrassing myself. I've trained all of my dogs with my method and have never had a dog like yours or the one here. I teach these methods in my classes and they work.
> 
> I have no doubt it *could* work, with the correct dog of suitable temperament, and the correct trainer with suitable timing.
> 
> ...


Yeah this is a good point but again it's why I'd advise people start with nagging corrections first that are just hard enough to stop the progression of the behavior before moving on to an escalation. If you are comfortable with clicker training and have the timing down on that then you should have the skills and to ing to mark and punish. It really isn't all that different.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

david nobody can win with you can they?
for a mod you certainly are becoming quite pointed in your criticisms
i do not think one should hit or smack a dog for playing
i still do not think this ought to happen
scruffing could possibly work to a certain age (but i never mentioned it prior to this post or yours)
these are my beliefs
what do you think has changed??

and to reiterate *my opinion* as well
i disagree with smacking dogs or puppies because you failed to teach them something along the way 
or as bailiff pointed out you taught it the wrong thing inadvertently

puppys play and they need to play 
google or go on you tube and watch puppys playing
you will notice they all play with their mouths


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

For "me" very last ditch effort, would be to hit/smack "my" pup..

Our classes always start with redirection, redirection, redirection to something that is appropriate to bite/chew on.. Teaching them how to make the object come a live and be more entertaining.. If that doesn't work removing the person and or the pup from the situation in a calm manner and crating them for a while.. the pup that is... And if that doesn't work then a good swat on the snout with a firm "no" or "enough." Very rarely is the latter warranted.. We also recommend keeping the pup leashed to you if small kids are involved.. That way you can immediately intervene..

What I've found over the years though is that "most" people are not consistent in what they are trying to do/teach.. And that's where the break down is.. 

And lastly the crate really is your best friend when raising pups and keeping ones sanity!!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

perfect g-burg 

classes are never a bad idea


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Wow he said hit the dog!g burg MBE David is right you are wrong get over it .Bill

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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> david nobody can win with you can they?
> for a mod you certainly are becoming quite pointed in your criticisms
> i do not think one should hit or smack a dog for playing
> i still do not think this ought to happen
> ...


I'm not trying to win anything. You are totally entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you are happy with your dogs and your training, that is awesome in my book. It is what we are all after anyhow. 

IMO, being a MOD doesn't remove me from the right to having an opinion. I don't have to agree with people any more than you do. Your posts are conflicting IMO, and I pointed that out. I'm not personally attacking you. If you disagree with my post, say why, just like I did with you. I'm willing to listen and will clarify anything that I have failed to explain from my point of view.


If you feel that physically punishing a dog is wrong, don't do it. I'm OK with that. If you come to me in person with behavioral issues with a pup, I'm going to talk to you about them, talk to you about what I suggest to change the behavior of the dog, and find something you are comfortable with. Then I will help you implement these techniques. If you try something for a period of time and it is not working, I am going to suggest trying something else. 

I'm not force feeding anyone anything. Take it or leave it. The advice is free and probably worth as much as you paid for it. I think there is much to be learned from debate. Maybe my skills at being tactful are lacking. People seem to be offended by my posts when I don't mean anything derogatory by them. I am a very direct person, and I say what I think. Maybe I need a better filter  Feel free to point these things out to me, here or in a PM, so I can learn to not upset people. All I want to do is help people learn and learn something myself.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I'd also like to explain something.

I am a Sergeant, through and through. I train dogs and people to do dangerous stuff in dangerous places, and I take that very seriously. In my daily life, I have to take Privates that know nothing and turn them into soldiers very quickly. This reality has certainly affected the way I deal with people, quite possibly in a negative way. I don't sit around and discuss things with them in training. I show them how to do it, give them a standard to live by, and then hold them to that standard.

I am sure that this has affected my ability to communicate in the civilian world. I have only spent 5 months out of the last 4 years at home. It is going to take some hard work and time for me to get back to reality.

I truly apologize if I have inadvertently offended you or anyone else. It was not my intention at all.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

G-burg said:


> For "me" very last ditch effort, would be to hit/smack "my" pup..
> 
> Our classes always start with redirection, redirection, redirection to something that is appropriate to bite/chew on.. Teaching them how to make the object come a live and be more entertaining.. If that doesn't work removing the person and or the pup from the situation in a calm manner and crating them for a while.. the pup that is... And if that doesn't work then a good swat on the snout with a firm "no" or "enough." Very rarely is the latter warranted.. We also recommend keeping the pup leashed to you if small kids are involved.. That way you can immediately intervene..
> 
> ...


I agree on the crate being your best friend and keeping one's sanity. The create has helped my puppy stay out of trouble, help potty train, keep him safe if I leave the house. I think that is why I hate putting him in there for time out. But , I think it's kinda a good thing, since I want him to know you can have good, with the bad. I'm taking the advice to keep him to my side with a leash when the kids are home. I think this will come in handy when he starts teething too. 

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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> If you feel that physically punishing a dog is wrong, don't do it. I'm OK with that. If you come to me in person with behavioral issues with a pup, I'm going to talk to you about them, talk to you about what I suggest to change the behavior of the dog, and find something you are comfortable with. Then I will help you implement these techniques. If you try something for a period of time and it is not working, I am going to suggest trying something else.


 And that's what any good trainer should do! Finding out what works for that person and their dog.. And realizing not everyone is comfortable using certain techniques! And that's okay..

Heck, I've trained with some hard core trainers and have learned a lot from each and every one of them.. Some techniques I willing to try and have worked well for me.. And others, no way in h*** would I do to my dogs..


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Leesa, I totally agree. I read books and train with all types of trainers. I think Karen Pryor is a great clicker trainer. I have learned a lot about shaping behavior from her books. Would I take an aggressive dog to her for training, heck no. I've learned a lot from working with old school guys that think nothing past Koehler has any merit, and what they do works so why try anything different. 

Dogs are as different as people are as different as trainers.

In the end, if you get what you are looking for out of the dog as a whole, you are on the right path.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

G-burg said:


> What I've found over the years though is that "most" people are not consistent in what they are trying to do/teach.. And that's where the break down is..
> 
> And lastly the crate really is your best friend when raising pups and keeping ones sanity!!


 
Yup!!! What I have seen and experienced in my time raising dogs and through my jobs is that people want immediate gratification. A method does not work the first time, they try something else, then something else, then something else. People are inconsistent because they want immediate results. 

It doesn't work that way. 

I go the same route G-burg outlined. Teach the dog what you want before correcting for what you don't want. My last resort with a baby puppy is a nose smack. Very last resort. If I have to resort to that, than I am doing something wrong. I don't take issue with verbal correction in a puppy, I don't take issue with holding a snout until they let go. I take issue with telling strangers on the internet to smack/hit their puppy because EVERYTHING ELSE HAS FAILED. It's a baby!!! No one with an 11week old puppy can tell me that is acceptable. There has not been enough consistency to make that approach ok to me. You can't punish what you haven't taught. And a baby, no matter how long you have them has not been taught. 

If after a week if praise for going potty outside your pup has an accident, do you punish it? NO! It's a baby. You take stock, figure out where you failed and improve. 

And yes. The crate was a godsend with my latest puppy. I used it liberally. 



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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

bill said:


> Wow he said hit the dog!g burg MBE David is right you are wrong get over it .Bill
> 
> 
> pardon me if i fail to understand how you think i am wrong
> ...


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

If you have a dog bite a 5 year old " you try your way it doesn't work you have to try another way! G burg even said he or she would hit as a last resort! Putting the dog up is like Ball if said about a killer" lock him up he is still a killer! 
We were giving advice on stopping biting when your way was not working! I don't want to argue with you ! Train your way" I'll train mine " don't assume everyone
Is singling you out" you do it too your self you need to read the whole story before you comment I have trained almost 40 years know more than one way! You have a great day!! Bill

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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

my boy diesel said:


> it works for a short time
> it does not fix the issue
> we are talking long term solution
> it is an ongoing process and those in favor of smacking the dog seem to think it is helping
> *we can all acknowledge that it wont fix the issue long term*


The bold portion is where the trouble is. Because it is a sweeping generalization (as Dani pointed out) and it's not true.

Because you have seen abuse doesn't mean everyone who uses physical corrections is abusing their dogs. Unless you believe any form of physical correction is wrong.

You tend to state things as fact at times, when in fact many disagree.

Also the term smacking I don't particularly like because there is too much room for interpretation. If smacking means punching a dog to you or others then of course it would be wrong.

As far as what people coulda, shoulda, woulda done with regard to training, remember the general public does not eat, sleep and live dogs. 
To expect the general public to spend hours training their dogs is just unrealistic.
Most of them also don't live on dog forums.

I'm retired now but if I was still working there would be no way I could or would pay any attention to most of this stuff.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I'm not trying to win anything. You are totally entitled to your opinion, as am I. If you are happy with your dogs and your training, that is awesome in my book. It is what we are all after anyhow.
> 
> IMO, being a MOD doesn't remove me from the right to having an opinion. I don't have to agree with people any more than you do. Your posts are conflicting IMO, and I pointed that out. I'm not personally attacking you. If you disagree with my post, say why, just like I did with you. I'm willing to listen and will clarify anything that I have failed to explain from my point of view.
> 
> ...


I have agreed with everything David has said, and appreciate his directness--I have a brother who's the same, so maybe I'm used to it, but I would rather have truth than sugar-coating.

I trained horses for many years, a lot of those years were spent with horses ruined by owners who didn't know what they were doing, and no one else would help them (or they were charging too much to do it). As a result I developed great reflexes and instantaneous corrections for severe infractions. Believe me, if you have a stallion who's been allowed to bite all his life, you aren't going to correct him with a little slap. BUT--you have to be fair, immediate, and consistent.

I have trained a number of large, potentially aggressive canines throughout my life, and much of what I learned with horses does translate to dogs. You have to read your dog accurately, be fair, immediate and consistent. Once he is corrected, he is a good dog again and he should know that from you. The punishment (or aversion training) is greatly scaled down from a horse, of course, but the principles still apply. I think that where a great many people fail is that they don't have the ability to read their dog and know how he is going to react to a particular style of punishment. With horses, we always said that if you start a fight with an Arabian or Thoroughbred, be prepared to win it--they are intelligent and have a good sense of justice, and know whether they deserve it or not. Ditto with dogs. They're more intelligent than horses, and they know whether you are being too hard on them--whether the punishment fits the crime.

Right now I have a 5 year old VERY DA GSD bitch who came to me that way. We have a full-length glass door, and she watches out the door and goes crazy when she sees someone walking a dog. I scruff her immediately, (yes, she's definitely NOT a puppy!) because she deserves it when she goes ape-wild, but I know hitting her would make her worse. I am consistent with her and she is improving immensely. I let her have access to that door, because if not, I couldn't correct her behavior. I can tell by her bark what she sees out the door, and now I call her name once and she comes to me instead of ignoring me and slamming against the door and scaring the living daylights out of the human walking the dog outside! She is also doing much better on leash when she sees another dog, so I am happy with what is working. She is not afraid of my hands, she comes to me for affection. Dogs (and horses) are intelligent enough to understand consequences. The trainer has to be discerning enough, intuitive enough, to know his puppy/dog/horse, whatever, and know what will or won't work with that particular animal. If you don't have that intuition, read, read, read, and even more, OBSERVE your dog, watch his reactions to lots of different situations, watch his eyes, his ears, his tail, his body. Key into him, learn him, puppy or adult. 

Sorry for the long post!

Susan


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

So I wanted to do a update.. Perseus is now 5 months . He now sleeps out side of his cage and would jump on my bed to sleep with me when my husband goes to work. He would wake me up to go out to pee, with kiss. He no long bites!! He is more mouthy by putting your hand or arm in his mouth, but not biting down. He might get my hand once in a while if we are playing tug a war and he tries to get a better grip. Perseus has no signs of aggression or being head shy. He loves kisses on his snout and forehead and rubs. I can actually sit with him and brush him and give hugs with no fear of biting!!!

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