# Opinions...people asking us to breed our dogs?



## mcdanfam

This is not something we are interested in....these are our first shepherds.....never considered breeding or allowing people to use them for breeding....not sure what it would be involved, but seems like a lot to learn and worry. Someone mentioned this site to post pics and get opinions if I should consider it...I personally would never do the female...because we don't want puppies here...and don't want the headache of it...but opinions about Miles would be welcomed. I read tonight, for proper breeding, people want multiple titles, conformations especially for our working lines shepherds. If miles does not fit the bill...I don't want to start any process of conformations, something that is focused on interest in breeding if he is not what the breed is looking for. He is a year old, so he has some growing to do and filling out to do....he has tons of work, play, prey drive....but his looks don't seem like other shepherds....even though we know he is, and his litter mate/sister looks like shepherd and the papers and family lines say he is...people say he does not look like a shepherd. Thank you for any opinions and advice....has anyone gone through conformations? These are the pics I had access to on my phone....if you need different angles I will add them.


















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## Jax08

He doesn't look like anything BUT a shepherd!

Why conformation? Go train and trial him. Find out what he's really got. And then decide if he will contribute to the breed.


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## misslesleedavis1

Wha????? people say he doesnt look like a shepherd? that crazy, when i looked at him the first thought that went thru my head was "wow what a good looking shepherd" ....jeeze..i have a bi colored male which i love the look of alot but your guy is just a stunner!


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## OUbrat79

I get the question of whether or not my boy is a shepherd all the time. I think a lot of it has to do with his color. He is a sable like your guy. I think that is what throws everyone off. 

As far as breeding him goes I personally wouldn't do it unless I planned on becoming a breeder and dedicating a lot of time and energy to it. There is just so much involved. He is very stunning though. Makes me think of my Ammo.


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## middleofnowhere

The on-the-street people asking you these questions would not be people knowing enough to better the breed. My first long hair would get "Do you plan to breed her? I really want a long haired shep!" inquiries. Sorry no. There are plenty of people that do responsible breeding out there but I doubt that they are the people looking to mate their dogs with yours.

To do this responsibly you need to know a lot more about pedigrees than I do. You also have to have a bunch of health clearances (hips, elbows etc.) Hopefully at least a certain amount of performance titles if you want to sell a pup to anyone that tries to trial it.


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## lhczth

These photos are not really suitable for this forum. If you want conformation critiques please read the two stickies at the top of the forum. They will give you a better idea about what is required. 

Thank you ADMIN


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## mcdanfam

These are our first shepherds...we thought and read the straight back was very much part of the distinction of the working line...a lady that does lots of AKC shows...not sure if her experience is the best or if she has her own idea of what a shepherd is....she told us he needed to have a rounded back....I explained we had bought the working line...one parent was a import and the other was from an import...so the family had straight backs and all the dogs in the family are registered...in Germany, US or both. She stood her ground and I just switched the topic to training.... 
Some people will bully you with their opinions and never understand or hear anything but their idea or opinion. They are both in training every Saturday....a guy who trains owns and works five of his own working line dogs...very talented man... Definitely challenging our dogs....the pups just turned a year....trying to decide what direction to head as far as trial or competitions. 
As far as conformation....one lady that gave us her number, who was very interested, said if we agreed and she was able to use him as a stud after researching family lines....she said he would need conformation....??? That is why I mentioned conformation! I have read all day...and I feel like I am on information over load...but since they reached a year old and are getting so advanced in training...we really have to decide in what direction we will be heading...
Thank you....I love them both so much...but know he has sharper features than Millie who has the classic shepherd eyes, mussel and ears...:-/


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## Castlemaid

What a handsome pair!!! Not that many people are familiar with working line sables - I know the first time I saw a sable, I did not recognize it as a German Shepherd, so used was I to only seeing black and tans. 

It seems that most of us, at one time or another, get asked if we would breed our dogs. But you are thinking along the right lines - doing it right is a huge responsibility. People asking you to breed may just be looking for a puppy on the cheap, and that is a pretty poor reason to breed a dog. 

Just enjoy your dogs. If people ask you about breeding them, just answer "Thank you, but these dogs are not for breeding". If people like your dogs and want one like them, direct them to the breeder you got them from. 

Good breeders didn't become good breeders because one day, they started thinking about breeding the dog they own. They were first and foremost dog people that were neck deep into everything about their breed - they had trained and titled numerous dogs, participated in a bazillion different dog activities and sports, had hands-on training of working dogs, read everything about their breed, studied pedigrees and lines, sought out and hung out with knowledgeable dog people and breeders to learn all they could, THEN after making dogs their life and obsession, went into breeding because of the knowledge they have accumulated over the years. 

That would be one reason to breed. Your dogs may be super nice (as is mine!), but that does not mean they should be bred. If your gut is telling you "Well . . . I'm not sure about this", follow your gut feeling.


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## Castlemaid

lhczth said:


> These photos are not really suitable for this forum. If you want conformation critiques please read the two stickies at the top of the forum. They will give you a better idea about what is required.
> 
> Thank you ADMIN


I moved the thread out of Critique to Breeding. OP, if you can get stacked pictures of your dog you can post them in Critique.


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## mcdanfam

lhczth said:


> These photos are not really suitable for this forum. If you want conformation critiques please read the two stickies at the top of the forum. They will give you a better idea about what is required.
> 
> Thank you ADMIN


So very sorry....new to site....did not know each thing had different rules....I will be more careful! 


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## selzer

Nice looking red sable. The AKC-showline lady has her opinions, and she should wait until someone asks for it. But whatever. 

Lots of people don't have a clue about the variety in the breed. Just enjoy your dogs. Learn all you can about them. If down the line you think one of them ought to be bred, you can address that then. Don't be pushed by outsiders in either direction. Just continue to learn. Let your dog teach you. Become an awesome trainer and enjoy your pups.


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## mcdanfam

Castlemaid said:


> What a handsome pair!!! Not that many people are familiar with working line sables - I know the first time I saw a sable, I did not recognize it as a German Shepherd, so used was I to only seeing black and tans.
> 
> It seems that most of us, at one time or another, get asked if we would breed our dogs. But you are thinking along the right lines - doing it right is a huge responsibility. People asking you to breed may just be looking for a puppy on the cheap, and that is a pretty poor reason to breed a dog.
> 
> Just enjoy your dogs. If people ask you about breeding them, just answer "Thank you, but these dogs are not for breeding". If people like your dogs and want one like them, direct them to the breeder you got them from.
> 
> Good breeders didn't become good breeders because one day, they started thinking about breeding the dog they own. They were first and foremost dog people that were neck deep into everything about their breed - they had trained and titled numerous dogs, participated in a bazillion different dog activities and sports, had hands-on training of working dogs, read everything about their breed, studied pedigrees and lines, sought out and hung out with knowledgeable dog people and breeders to learn all they could, THEN after making dogs their life and obsession, went into breeding because of the knowledge they have accumulated over the years.
> 
> That would be one reason to breed. Your dogs may be super nice (as is mine!), but that does not mean they should be bred. If your gut is telling you "Well . . . I'm not sure about this", follow your gut feeling.


Thank you so much....the thought of bloodlines, titles, competitions, making sure my dog was safe and along with dealing with everything else that goes into have a dog in breeding....just seems like it would take a couple of decades to learn...! I guess my gut was leading me the correct direction! When I am that hesitant and conflicted it usually means walk away. 
Thank you so much....very much how I was leaning....just enjoying them like we have been.... 

Thank you to all who offered, and again so very sorry for posting wrong! I am usually a rule follower, computers are not my friend. My girls taught me how to work this app... I just don't make time to play with electronics....the dogs prefer outside. 


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## mcdanfam

selzer said:


> Nice looking red sable. The AKC-showline lady has her opinions, and she should wait until someone asks for it. But whatever.
> 
> Lots of people don't have a clue about the variety in the breed. Just enjoy your dogs. Learn all you can about them. If down the line you think one of them ought to be bred, you can address that then. Don't be pushed by outsiders in either direction. Just continue to learn. Let your dog teach you. Become an awesome trainer and enjoy your pups.


Thank you.....it does seem people offer opinions without being asked...


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## Castlemaid

I don't know if you saw this decision making flow chart. 









It's actually a sticky in this forum:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


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## mcdanfam

Castlemaid said:


> I don't know if you saw this decision making flow chart.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's actually a sticky in this forum:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html


Wow....thank you! I have not checked out the sticky on this site....I went back to the other place to read those so I don't make the same mistake again. 
Will check definitely start checking sticky notes. 

I seriously did not think I had the mental energy... With two teens, advanced classes, homework, training pups....just did not think I had the amount of time needed to do right by the breed! 

I will say....we will never own another breed! They are so amazing everyday...the brains, thinking process, problem solving, energy, love, dedication.....and goofy playfulness...nothing better! We as a family give thanks everyday we got the dogs we did....and we will continue to read about their family lines, learn everything we can about them and just enjoy them without the stress of breeding...my guts likes relaxed time, reading for enjoyment and not I have to learn everything right away...or at least attempt to....thank you for your help...and info! It's like felt my hesitation. 


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## GSD Dad

Not an expert on when to breed or not, but I got asked all the time what our Thor (a red sable) was mixed with, and even had people argue with me that he was not 100% GSD.










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## JakodaCD OA

I just say SURE my stud fee is 2000$


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## misslesleedavis1

I love the flow chart, its great! I wish more breeders would follow it.


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## LaRen616

Wow, he is GORGEOUS.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Your dogs are beautiful! But so are many of our dogs... and I'm like you the idea of what is involved with breeding is just too much for me. The learning, background and experience involved with all the genetics, temperament, bloodlines and genetics is just crazy. The fact that 2 great dogs individually, when bred, can have a nighmare litter of puppies just cause of the genetic blend is scary to me ACK!

That said we do have some great breeders on this site. So to think about that as a far in the future goal isn't bad. Have you seen this --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html it's another sticky that's useful to learn when looking for a responsible breeder. So it has all what is involved with being one.

I know it's not for me!

Though training and trialing and doing fun dog sport things is a blast and helps get YOUR breeders name out. So you are supporting someone who you love, love their dogs, can go to in the future for a puppy, but leaving most of the hard job to them.


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## Lilie

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Though training and trialing and doing fun dog sport things is a blast and helps get YOUR breeders name out. So you are supporting someone who you love, love their dogs, can go to in the future for a puppy, but leaving most of the hard job to them.


Exactly what I am doing with my Lacy. I enjoy all the training and trialing. My dog is making a name for himself. When folks come to me and ask about breeding to him...I hand them my breeder's card. My breeder supports me 100% - he is a great mentor - and rarely misses an event we go to. 

Personally, I have far too much work into my dog to allow him to be bred to a female that wouldn't create mini rockstars. I don't know enough about the lines/bitches to make that type of decision. To me, one crazy dog with my male's name on it's papers would ruin all the hard work I've done to prove my male. Not worth the risk to me.


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## carmspack

not the way I would have organized the flow chart !
you can have a responsible breeder , very good at the desk work part, and still be one that is not a GOOD breeder , or a breeder of GOOD dogs. my opinion.

"does your dog have a stable temperament appropriate to the breed?"
should be your first hurdle. If the answer is NO or vague or with excuses , then the answer right there and then would be , sorry , go no further. 
You can end up with nice paper and a not nice dog.


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## gsdsar

Lilie said:


> Personally, I have far too much work into my dog to allow him to be bred to a female that wouldn't create mini rockstars. I don't know enough about the lines/bitches to make that type of decision. To me, one crazy dog with my male's name on it's papers would ruin all the hard work I've done to prove my male. Not worth the risk to me.


What are you proving him FOR? You say you are spending loads of time and effort to "prove" your male. If not for breeding than what? Your worth as a trainer? Your ability? Your breeder? 

Not trying to be snarky, just trying to understand. Maybe it's just semantics on word choice. If you had zero desire to breed than that hard work would not be to "prove" your male, it would be for fun and experience for you. 

Would your breeder not help you in weeding out unsuitable females? 



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## Blanketback

I've had so many people ask me out of the blue, "Is he fixed?" and this has been going on for 30 years! Random strangers just assuming I'll agree to mating my male with their female....huh? People are weird, lol.


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## carmspack

I don't think Lilie is hard to understand at all - at is very responsible in her approach.
She is out there exposing the dog to tests , learning , and obviously attracting positive attention . Instead of making breeding appointments because she has been flattered , she gives the card of her breeder , who can be approached, who does know her dogs bloodlines well, who can determine whether the genetics and or the person who will have the pups to sell are suitable. If all systems go I am sure that Lillies' dog breeder will make the connection - maybe be a resource for placing those pups, at least have an interest to follow up to see if the pups turned out to expectation , to see what comes out with what combination.
Stud dogs especially are judged by what they produce . Often it is forgotten that the female provides a great deal including temperament, health as the pups are nourished and given immune systems , chemical balance by the mother , her health , her emotional state.
good on you Lillie


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## Jax08

carmspack said:


> I don't think Lilie is hard to understand at all - at is very responsible in her approach.
> She is out there exposing the dog to tests , learning , and obviously attracting positive attention . Instead of making breeding appointments because she has been flattered , she gives the card of her breeder , who can be approached, who does know her dogs bloodlines well, who can determine whether the genetics and or the person who will have the pups to sell are suitable.


Exactly. My puppy came with full registration. Could I breed him? Yes. Nothing stopping me. Will I ever? Not in my plans at all. Even though I've already been asked twice! Before he was 12 weeks! lol He has a great pedigree from proven stock. I'll train, trial and prove him to be good stock. Doesnt' mean I need to breed him. I just helped to prove my breeder's program. And when the time comes for another, I'll find someone who knows what they are doing because I certainly don't!


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## Lilie

gsdsar said:


> What are you proving him FOR? You say you are spending loads of time and effort to "prove" your male. If not for breeding than what? Your worth as a trainer? Your ability? Your breeder?
> 
> 
> Would your breeder not help you in weeding out unsuitable females?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes! All of the above! To me, the better my male, the better bitch we can breed to. You'll never get rich breeding. You'll never make enough money to make it worth your while. My goal is for the future. I want folks to look for puppies with my dog's name in the lineage. How cool would that be? 

Yes, my breeder has already agreed to assist in finding the right female(s) to breed to. He also benefits from my dog doing well. To me, that is the perfect relationship with your breeder. Someone who feels they have just as much at stake in your dog and all offspring (if any) as you do.


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## martemchik

Since you posted earlier with questions about shows and trials I’ll assume that it’s just random people coming up to you and asking you about breeding your dogs. Those people, who have not seen your dogs work, train, anything other than what they look like, are not the types you want to be associating yourself with. They’re basing their want to breed on the fact that you have a very good looking dog.

If you have people come up to you at a trial, or at training, it’s a different story. Generally they’re also trialing/training, and have a true interest in finding more about your dog and breeding to it because they see that the dog has more to offer than just its look. You don’t want to breed with the other type of person because your dog’s progeny will be tracked. People will pretty much follow what your dog produces without really worrying about what female he was bred to, so if and when you do title and then want to stud him, the “better” bitch owners will see that your dog hasn’t produced that greatly and almost ignore the dam in the equation. That will lead them to not want to breed to your dog although he is now titled/proven.

When talking about stud dogs, you really have to realize what else is out there. You have to question why this person, or that person is coming to you rather than going to someone else. There are tons of stud dogs out there that have Schutzhund titles and have proven themselves in one venue or another. Why not go to those? Their puppies would be much more marketable and look much better on paper than anything your dog produces (at this point). The truth is, the people that come up to you (at this point) probably either don’t realize this, don’t care about it, or do realize it, and get turned down by the “reputable” stud dog owners because they know this and won’t breed to a sub-par female. So that sub-par female owner tries to find a sub-par male dog to breed to because they just want to make some puppies and some money.

I hope my post doesn’t make you think that I don’t like your dog, or that your dog isn’t great. It’s just that at this point he hasn’t proven anything to anyone outside of your training circle and the area he’s comfortable in. And it’s not that I put a lot of weight onto a title, but a title shows that the dog can do X,Y,Z and that a non-biased judge saw and graded that performance. At this point, I’m just comparing your dog to the other males out there and trying to show you what a “reputable” or good female owner would be looking at as well. Kind of showing you why a person with a female wroth breeding, probably wouldn’t chose your dog to breed to (at this point).

And again...if you breed to those sub-par females now, that history will follow your dog for the rest of his life. So when it does come time and you've proven your dog and can possibly catch the eye of a good female owner...that owner will be able to see that your dog hasn't produced anything good and not want to breed to your dog anyways.


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## Merciel

gsdsar said:


> What are you proving him FOR? You say you are spending loads of time and effort to "prove" your male. If not for breeding than what? Your worth as a trainer? Your ability? Your breeder?


I don't want to speak for Lilie here, but for me personally -- yep, in the future I'll be looking for an at least _potentially_ breedworthy candidate as my Imaginary Future Dog.

I like training and trialing dogs. I'm willing to sink thousands of hours and dollars into doing it. I have absolutely zero ambitions to be a breeder, but on the other hand, it honestly seems like kind of a waste to put in all that effort without trying to prove _some_ kind of larger point, whether it's "yes, you can be a successful competitor in Rally with a severely fearful pound puppy, so don't give up on yours!" or "yes, dogs out of this breeder's program have the genetic package to excel in venues X, Y, and Z and are otherwise breedworthy, so here's another option for preserving genetic diversity in the breed."

Anyway, put me down as another vote for going out there and training/trialing your dog, and seeing how well you do and what else is out there before making _any_ decisions about breedworthiness.


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## mcdanfam

GSD Dad said:


> Not an expert on when to breed or not, but I got asked all the time what our Thor (a red sable) was mixed with, and even had people argue with me that he was not 100% GSD.
> 
> View attachment 162434
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I try not to speak about anything unless I have faced it and dealt with it or know I have every fact. I only know what I have faced and our trainer has taught us....other than that....I could not give one ounce of advice.....much less me judging and remarking on someone's dog. 


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## mcdanfam

JakodaCD OA said:


> I just say SURE my stud fee is 2000$


Guess that would stop people from being interested.... 


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## mcdanfam

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I love the flow chart, its great! I wish more breeders would follow it.


Agreed....


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## mcdanfam

LaRen616 said:


> Wow, he is GORGEOUS.


Thank you.....he is so sweet and protective...most people said to get the females, the females are more protective of the kids...we just got one of each for each child to have a dog to run, jog and train with. From our experience he is so much more focused on the kids. Especially infants and toddlers....it's like he is glued to them. Some stuff we were told, is happening, but other stuff is not how people said it would be....but it has been such a rewarding decision. We are addicted to their personalities. 


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## mcdanfam

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Your dogs are beautiful! But so are many of our dogs... and I'm like you the idea of what is involved with breeding is just too much for me. The learning, background and experience involved with all the genetics, temperament, bloodlines and genetics is just crazy. The fact that 2 great dogs individually, when bred, can have a nighmare litter of puppies just cause of the genetic blend is scary to me ACK!
> 
> That said we do have some great breeders on this site. So to think about that as a far in the future goal isn't bad. Have you seen this --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html it's another sticky that's useful to learn when looking for a responsible breeder. So it has all what is involved with being one.
> 
> I know it's not for me!
> 
> Though training and trialing and doing fun dog sport things is a blast and helps get YOUR breeders name out. So you are supporting someone who you love, love their dogs, can go to in the future for a puppy, but leaving most of the hard job to them.


It does seem very overwhelming....you are correct....I have love looking at all the pics on the app. So MANY beautiful shepherds as well as other breeds. Looking through all the shepherd pics, you see so many noble souls in their eyes! So happy to have found this app, and look at pics to relax....my girls love seeing all the dogs and puppy's. They get to asking for puppies when the see the new puppy photos....! I get tempted...just can't tell them that...! 


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## mcdanfam

Lilie said:


> Exactly what I am doing with my Lacy. I enjoy all the training and trialing. My dog is making a name for himself. When folks come to me and ask about breeding to him...I hand them my breeder's card. My breeder supports me 100% - he is a great mentor - and rarely misses an event we go to.
> 
> Personally, I have far too much work into my dog to allow him to be bred to a female that wouldn't create mini rockstars. I don't know enough about the lines/bitches to make that type of decision. To me, one crazy dog with my male's name on it's papers would ruin all the hard work I've done to prove my male. Not worth the risk to me.


That was another concern....not our pups drive, stability, and personality....but the other persons...and what the pups would end up like. I don't know the breed, lines or history of any of the lines to prevent crazy pups. We talked to 10-12 different breeders, people in Germany....and was told the lines to look for...but feel that ours was luck...we could have easily got the same lines, but not the same dogs, luck was definitely on our side with so many questionable breeders. 
This page has definitely made me feel better about my fears and concerns.....I don't feel "just lazy" about the work that would be involved....


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## mcdanfam

carmspack said:


> not the way I would have organized the flow chart !
> you can have a responsible breeder , very good at the desk work part, and still be one that is not a GOOD breeder , or a breeder of GOOD dogs. my opinion.
> 
> "does your dog have a stable temperament appropriate to the breed?"
> should be your first hurdle. If the answer is NO or vague or with excuses , then the answer right there and then would be , sorry , go no further.
> You can end up with nice paper and a not nice dog.


Thank you for taking the time. He is very stable, can be handled anywhere on the body by any age group, very protective...especially of small children. The lady we met was in the keys...they had a group of 14-17 kids...2-17 years of age....group family vacations...after watching the ball drive, both being so alert, the behavior and how well they responded to commands at 8 months old....she seemed to know a lot, said she would not be willing until hips and elbows were certified, at least 2 and would want to see titles...she was very interested in him, she offered money but my kids stopped that dead in its tracks....she said she loved his personality, his attention, drive and how great he was with kids that he had just been introduced to. She said to be surrounded by that many kids and still be acting as he did, she figured he would be a very stable and have lots of courage and nerve....but since them I have witnessed many shepherds who welcome groups of children and handle it just fine...I don't think he is any different from the other shepherds on this app...kids climb on them, sleep on them, wrestle with them....I think I am learning it is just part of the breed. When we rejected her money offer, that is when she started talking breeding...just seems like a lot of work for something I am not that interested in. 


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## mcdanfam

Blanketback said:


> I've had so many people ask me out of the blue, "Is he fixed?" and this has been going on for 30 years! Random strangers just assuming I'll agree to mating my male with their female....huh? People are weird, lol.


LOL! You are correct...we have never had so many people give us opinions and advice that we did not seek. One lady saw miles was not neutered! Wow! She went off on us, in the pet store, in front of everyone! She made such show. After she told us we where the reasons pounds and shelters were full, she then told us he would be aggressive and nasty if he was not fixed. After she finished, I kindly said, miss....I did not walk up to you and judge you for anything that your have or have not done with your dog. Please show me the same respect. We are not the cause if the problems you suggested. Our female has been through one heat, please take note, she is the pup with my husband and she is not pregnant. So we did our job and prevented it as responsible dog owners do. 
Turned and walked out....people followed us out and said how out of line she was....some people really have no right being in public....we have met some strange and unusual people since we got the pups, but most are really great. But the dogs attract a lot of attention. I guess that will make the humans more of a target for judgment and unsolicited advise. 


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## NancyJ

I have not read all the responses but scanned but I did a search for injury or damage or STDs, all of which can occur. I have been approached and have declined (and I have not even bothered with hip and elbow and back x-rays yet which might end it right there)

....may consider at some point but the above are major other considerations from me tilting the balance to, uh, "I'm flattered but no". The only reason I would consider is I have a really good working dog with great hunt drives for SAR and an unusual motherline. And then it would only be with the blessings advice of the breeder of that line and involving others who know the lines.

You have some drop dead gorgeous dogs, though.


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## mcdanfam

martemchik said:


> Since you posted earlier with questions about shows and trials I’ll assume that it’s just random people coming up to you and asking you about breeding your dogs. Those people, who have not seen your dogs work, train, anything other than what they look like, are not the types you want to be associating yourself with. They’re basing their want to breed on the fact that you have a very good looking dog.
> 
> If you have people come up to you at a trial, or at training, it’s a different story. Generally they’re also trialing/training, and have a true interest in finding more about your dog and breeding to it because they see that the dog has more to offer than just its look. You don’t want to breed with the other type of person because your dog’s progeny will be tracked. People will pretty much follow what your dog produces without really worrying about what female he was bred to, so if and when you do title and then want to stud him, the “better” bitch owners will see that your dog hasn’t produced that greatly and almost ignore the dam in the equation. That will lead them to not want to breed to your dog although he is now titled/proven.
> 
> When talking about stud dogs, you really have to realize what else is out there. You have to question why this person, or that person is coming to you rather than going to someone else. There are tons of stud dogs out there that have Schutzhund titles and have proven themselves in one venue or another. Why not go to those? Their puppies would be much more marketable and look much better on paper than anything your dog produces (at this point). The truth is, the people that come up to you (at this point) probably either don’t realize this, don’t care about it, or do realize it, and get turned down by the “reputable” stud dog owners because they know this and won’t breed to a sub-par female. So that sub-par female owner tries to find a sub-par male dog to breed to because they just want to make some puppies and some money.
> 
> I hope my post doesn’t make you think that I don’t like your dog, or that your dog isn’t great. It’s just that at this point he hasn’t proven anything to anyone outside of your training circle and the area he’s comfortable in. And it’s not that I put a lot of weight onto a title, but a title shows that the dog can do X,Y,Z and that a non-biased judge saw and graded that performance. At this point, I’m just comparing your dog to the other males out there and trying to show you what a “reputable” or good female owner would be looking at as well. Kind of showing you why a person with a female wroth breeding, probably wouldn’t chose your dog to breed to (at this point).
> 
> And again...if you breed to those sub-par females now, that history will follow your dog for the rest of his life. So when it does come time and you've proven your dog and can possibly catch the eye of a good female owner...that owner will be able to see that your dog hasn't produced anything good and not want to breed to your dog anyways.


Thank you! No...offense...taken! That is why I was asking! As you can see from
the trails question/post...we are brand new to shepherd world! We don't want to do anything to hurt the breed or our dogs. 
We want to make educated and smart decision about and for them. They just turned a year old...are excelling in all the training, and every new situation they are put in but have not been to any competitions, trials or shows! Your opinion is welcome and received! The points you made are exactly why I am asking....! They were great....thank you! 


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## mcdanfam

Merciel said:


> I don't want to speak for Lilie here, but for me personally -- yep, in the future I'll be looking for an at least _potentially_ breedworthy candidate as my Imaginary Future Dog.
> 
> I like training and trialing dogs. I'm willing to sink thousands of hours and dollars into doing it. I have absolutely zero ambitions to be a breeder, but on the other hand, it honestly seems like kind of a waste to put in all that effort without trying to prove _some_ kind of larger point, whether it's "yes, you can be a successful competitor in Rally with a severely fearful pound puppy, so don't give up on yours!" or "yes, dogs out of this breeder's program have the genetic package to excel in venues X, Y, and Z and are otherwise breedworthy, so here's another option for preserving genetic diversity in the breed."
> 
> Anyway, put me down as another vote for going out there and training/trialing your dog, and seeing how well you do and what else is out there before making _any_ decisions about breedworthiness.


Thank you! Great points! 


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## mcdanfam

jocoyn said:


> I have not read all the responses but scanned but I did a search for injury or damage or STDs, all of which can occur. I have been approached and have declined (and I have not even bothered with hip and elbow and back x-rays yet which might end it right there)
> 
> ....may consider at some point but the above are major other considerations from me tilting the balance to, uh, "I'm flattered but no". The only reason I would consider is I have a really good working dog with great hunt drives for SAR and an unusual motherline. And then it would only be with the blessings advice of the breeder of that line and involving others who know the lines.
> 
> You have some drop dead gorgeous dogs, though.


Thank you! I did not know dogs could STD's....! I did worry about injury! I watch animal planet..,and animals do not look or sound friendly when mating. 


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## gsdsar

Lilie said:


> Yes! All of the above! To me, the better my male, the better bitch we can breed to. You'll never get rich breeding. You'll never make enough money to make it worth your while. My goal is for the future. I want folks to look for puppies with my dog's name in the lineage. How cool would that be?
> 
> Yes, my breeder has already agreed to assist in finding the right female(s) to breed to. He also benefits from my dog doing well. To me, that is the perfect relationship with your breeder. Someone who feels they have just as much at stake in your dog and all offspring (if any) as you do.


That makes sense. Sorry, for some reason I got the impression from your initial post that you had no desire to think about breeding him. That was where my confusion came in. Whether or not the right female presents itself is another. I get it now. And I agree with the way you are going about it (not that you need my approval). I just did not get the need to "prove" if you had zero desire to ever breed him. 

Good luck with your training. Hope I did not offend. 


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think you may have posted in the health section you won't be spaying or neutering - if you have a male and a female you will need to be on top of them so they won't. Lots of breeders here who can give you information that will be helpful.


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## mcdanfam

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I think you may have posted in the health section you won't be spaying or neutering - if you have a male and a female you will need to be on top of them so they won't. Lots of breeders here who can give you information that will be helpful.


Could use any suggestions. We may eventually spay, but just not early on for sure. 

Millie has been through one cycle. We kept her kennel in the one room and miles kennel In another room. Only one at a time was allowed in the yard and our for training....when Millie was out with us we kept her diapers on to prevent blood on the floors. In the evenings we would put both kennels in the den, since they like to chill with the family before bed. But kept the kennels a few feet apart. 

Always welcome any suggest others may have!!! It was a lot of work keeping the separate. Oh....also....she wore a diaper anytime she was outside other than her potty breaks. But we never left her alone for even a second in the fence! Hopefully we are doing this correctly.....


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## holland

A friend of mine used to send her male to a kennel while the female was in heat-that probably did get expensive


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## Liesje

How they react depends on the dogs, but it's best to be prepared for "worst case scenario". My male *definitely* notices an intact bitch in heat and is in "his" house, but when we had one here, he wasn't eating through the walls or anything like that. He acted more on edge while she was here (like he was ultra-protective of her, barked at people walking past, that sort of thing) but didn't make an extra effort to get to her. However, since she was here FOR breeding I also didn't make any extra effort to keep them apart. I had the male shut in one room and the female crated on a different floor of the house. I suppose if he had busted out somehow and they bred it wouldn't really have mattered since that's why she was here. If I had a female in heat that I did NOT want bred I'd probably be crating *both* dogs on separate floors or just taking one dog with me.


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## DaniFani

Your dogs are very handsome, working line, dark sables. They seem very loved. I will agree with those saying to prove them, title them, health test them, get a mentor to help whelp, and match the appropriate pedigrees (chances are they aren't a good match for each other pedigree or temperament wise, two puppies growing up to that is rare), before you think about breeding. Comments like, >>"my girls love puppies and want them to have puppies...etc" is what makes me think you got a male and female, from two separate breeders, for a reason.....If your girls love puppies so much have them volunteer a few hours with a shelter, working with 100's of dogs and puppies that have no homes. Then imagine having 10-12 puppies that need homes...and what you'll do if someone decides they don't want the puppy at 6 months old. 

There are two threads around here I wish I could find, one the bitch of the litter died during labor and 10 puppies needed 24 hour round the clock care (she ended up giving them up to a shelter because the family couldn't handle it...and a few pups died). The other thread was a woman in almost your exact situation, that had 8 puppies, and had trouble finding homes, and 1 or maybe 2 puppies returned around 8 months old.

I'll be honest, to my eye, they look like any other dark sable working line dog I've seen running around a IPO field. There isn't anything "spectacular" to me (right now). That's why it's so important to prove them through titles, health checks, and correct pedigree matches....otherwise, it's just like any byb churning out more "dark sable puppies" which is a HUGE selling point right now because the dark sable is in strong desire by everyone it seems. People don't tend to be as up front and "blunt" with the working line owners thinking about breeding their "beautiful" dogs. To me...it's the same...especially since I've heard the "they come from police K9's" and are SO beautiful line so many times, and seen some really cruddy "beautiful" dark working line dogs....and your dog's dam wasn't a police K9...she was only trained *like* one...HUGE difference, so I hope you stop telling people that.

Anywho, good luck!! I really hope you continue on the route with the training, prove either of their breed worthiness, title, evaluate them and their training honestly, find a mentor, learn about pedigrees, match appropriately, and then make a decision. Rather than the "accidental" breeding, and excuses as to why they can't be titled, but the pedigree is "great" so they could be bred just once. Not trying to be pessimistic, just annoyed with the treatment of working line pet owners that consider breeding vs the showline pet owners that want to breed their beautiful, wonderful, pets that everyone wants to see them breed.

I could seriously take any purebred dog out for a walk once a day and get asked if I was going to breed it. Unfortunately, it's really common for people to breed dogs for no reason other than looks and a "wonderful family pet." It's the reason most breeds in this country (not just GSDs) are a wreck temperament wise, and fearful dog/puppy is considered "normal" by so many.


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## mcdanfam

Thank you, holland....

Great idea for doggie daycare....that would leave me only evenings to deal with....the girls would have to sleep at the kennels if miles did....they are glued to him every other min of the day... 



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## mcdanfam

DaniFani said:


> Your dogs are very handsome, working line, dark sables. They seem very loved. I will agree with those saying to prove them, title them, health test them, get a mentor to help whelp, and match the appropriate pedigrees (chances are they aren't a good match for each other pedigree or temperament wise, two puppies growing up to that is rare), before you think about breeding. Comments like, >>"my girls love puppies and want them to have puppies...etc" is what makes me think you got a male and female, from two separate breeders, for a reason.....If your girls love puppies so much have them volunteer a few hours with a shelter, working with 100's of dogs and puppies that have no homes. Then imagine having 10-12 puppies that need homes...and what you'll do if someone decides they don't want the puppy at 6 months old.
> 
> There are two threads around here I wish I could find, one the bitch of the litter died during labor and 10 puppies needed 24 hour round the clock care (she ended up giving them up to a shelter because the family couldn't handle it...and a few pups died). The other thread was a woman in almost your exact situation, that had 8 puppies, and had trouble finding homes, and 1 or maybe 2 puppies returned around 8 months old.
> 
> I'll be honest, to my eye, they look like any other dark sable working line dog I've seen running around a IPO field. There isn't anything "spectacular" to me (right now). That's why it's so important to prove them through titles, health checks, and correct pedigree matches....otherwise, it's just like any byb churning out more "dark sable puppies" which is a HUGE selling point right now because the dark sable is in strong desire by everyone it seems. People don't tend to be as up front and "blunt" with the working line owners thinking about breeding their "beautiful" dogs. To me...it's the same...especially since I've heard the "they come from police K9's" and are SO beautiful line so many times, and seen some really cruddy "beautiful" dark working line dogs....and your dog's dam wasn't a police K9...she was only trained *like* one...HUGE difference, so I hope you stop telling people that.
> 
> Anywho, good luck!! I really hope you continue on the route with the training, prove either of their breed worthiness, title, evaluate them and their training honestly, find a mentor, learn about pedigrees, match appropriately, and then make a decision. Rather than the "accidental" breeding, and excuses as to why they can't be titled, but the pedigree is "great" so they could be bred just once. Not trying to be pessimistic, just annoyed with the treatment of working line pet owners that consider breeding vs the showline pet owners that want to breed their beautiful, wonderful, pets that everyone wants to see them breed.
> 
> I could seriously take any purebred dog out for a walk once a day and get asked if I was going to breed it. Unfortunately, it's really common for people to breed dogs for no reason other than looks and a "wonderful family pet." It's the reason most breeds in this country (not just GSDs) are a wreck temperament wise, and fearful dog/puppy is considered "normal" by so many.


Thank you for the warning about the females dying. That was one of our biggest concerns and one reason we absolutely did NOT want to breed millie and was not considering that in any way. We were way to worried about her getting sick or hurt and puppies all over our house. 

We could NEVER breed our male and our female....I think you have me confused with another member. Our pups are siblings/litter mates. Our pups don't have a mom that was a police k9. The mom and dad both were owned by the breeder we get our pups from. The dad did some tracking but I think that was just to work him and have fun with him. I don't think either were working dogs other than the titles they had earned. 

My question was should I consider going through all of the trouble of paperwork, trails, competitions, go through everything and put the time it would take to learn about breeding to allow miles to be used as a stud? One person was incredibly interested in him, they had offered to buy him, but that was completely out of the question as he is a huge part of this family. That is when she started asking about breeding? I posted to ask if it was worth the trouble? To see all of the things people would look for in a stud? 

I agree all breeds have lots if issues that could be avoided if things were watched more carefully....also after reading the other post, It made me feel better about my first thoughts and feeling of not wanting the headache of allowing miles to be a stud. 

Thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts. 




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## DaniFani

mcdanfam said:


> Thank you for the warning about the females dying. That was one of our biggest concerns and one reason we absolutely did NOT want to breed millie and was not considering that in any way. We were way to worried about her getting sick or hurt and puppies all over our house.
> 
> We could NEVER breed our male and our female....I think you have me confused with another member. Our pups are siblings/litter mates. Our pups don't have a mom that was a police k9. The mom and dad both were owned by the breeder we get our pups from. The dad did some tracking but I think that was just to work him and have fun with him. I don't think either were working dogs other than the titles they had earned.
> 
> My question was should I consider going through all of the trouble of paperwork, trails, competitions, go through everything and put the time it would take to learn about breeding to allow miles to be used as a stud? One person was incredibly interested in him, they had offered to buy him, but that was completely out of the question as he is a huge part of this family. That is when she started asking about breeding? I posted to ask if it was worth the trouble? To see all of the things people would look for in a stud?
> 
> I agree all breeds have lots if issues that could be avoided if things were watched more carefully....also after reading the other post, It made me feel better about my first thoughts and feeling of not wanting the headache of allowing miles to be a stud.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to offer your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Whoops! My bad, thought you were the one that said they were from police K9's. Must be thinking of someone else! So glad you've decided not to go the breeding route. But, I do hope you continue with training, SO much to get the dogs involved in some kind of sport or competitive obedience, regardless of genetics/pedigrees, etc! :-D


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## mcdanfam

Liesje said:


> How they react depends on the dogs, but it's best to be prepared for "worst case scenario". My male *definitely* notices an intact bitch in heat and is in "his" house, but when we had one here, he wasn't eating through the walls or anything like that. He acted more on edge while she was here (like he was ultra-protective of her, barked at people walking past, that sort of thing) but didn't make an extra effort to get to her. However, since she was here FOR breeding I also didn't make any extra effort to keep them apart. I had the male shut in one room and the female crated on a different floor of the house. I suppose if he had busted out somehow and they bred it wouldn't really have mattered since that's why she was here. If I had a female in heat that I did NOT want bred I'd probably be crating *both* dogs on separate floors or just taking one dog with me.


I did not think about his temperament changing...is there a chance he will act differently the second heat? 
He acted like himself the first time she went through her cycle....but I did not consider him acting differently the second time...I just worried about keeping them each in desperate kennels, rooms and behind desperate closed doors. When we told Millie for walks and around the community, we had her wear the diaper and a cloth, cover over it. We also carried pepper spray incase any strays tried to get aggressive or were to pushy trying to get to her...



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## mcdanfam

DaniFani said:


> Whoops! My bad, thought you were the one that said they were from police K9's. Must be thinking of someone else! So glad you've decided not to go the breeding route. But, I do hope you continue with training, SO much to get the dogs involved in some kind of sport or competitive obedience, regardless of genetics/pedigrees, etc! :-D


No worries..... So many people, asking so many questions....can definitely understand the confusion! 
I am just thankful people are kind enough to take the time to help others understand. 

Oh...there is no way we could stop training! They love to work...if we miss one day of play/training due to rain...they are beside themselves! They would be destructive and not as enjoyable as they are....

Again, that you for taking the time to respond!  



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## DaniFani

Haha, so sorry, I mixed you up with the thread below! I blame it on the rain, lol. I've literally been cooped up for days, and get just as nuts as the dogs lol. Somehow I meshed both your stories together. Again, sorry for the tongue lashing. 

As to your question about could the second heat effect him more. I know it was geared towards Lies, but I would answer yeah, only because he's more mature now, and with maturity comes hormones, etc...So don't expect it to go just as smoothly or to be a mess, just be aware that he may/probably act differently because he could be coming into his own maturity and take the heat cycle a little more seriously. As to how to handle it?? I have no experience there, hopefully Lies or some breeders that are used to dealing with it will chime in...seems like the consensus is to keep them separated. 

My in-laws neighbor had brother/sister puppies. They didn't know the female was in heat and they bred before they got her spayed, and had nine puppies :-(. So I just think diligent separation is the key. I don't really have much else advice.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/392754-ideal-age-breed.html


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## Castlemaid

mcdanfam said:


> I did not think about his temperament changing...is there a chance he will act differently the second heat?
> He acted like himself the first time she went through her cycle....but I did not consider him acting differently the second time.


Yes, don't get complacent about him not caring about her being in heat - that can change. It has more to do with his maturity level than the 1st or 2nd or 3rd heat of the female. 

Some Working Lines come from lines that are known to mature slow - he may be three or four years old before he shows interest in a female in heat. So if he seems to not care about it right now, that could change. 

Gryffon never showed interest in females in heat - I'd ask club members to bring their female out and we would go for leash walks, or train side-by-side just so I could check his reaction - nothing. No interest at all. 

But then he turned three, and it was like a switch went on in his head, and if there is a female in heat around, his normal brain goes on vacation, and some other nutso brain takes over, so be aware that things may change with your dog from one day to the next.


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## mcdanfam

DaniFani said:


> Haha, so sorry, I mixed you up with the thread below! I blame it on the rain, lol. I've literally been cooped up for days, and get just as nuts as the dogs lol. Somehow I meshed both your stories together. Again, sorry for the tongue lashing.
> 
> As to your question about could the second heat effect him more. I know it was geared towards Lies, but I would answer yeah, only because he's more mature now, and with maturity comes hormones, etc...So don't expect it to go just as smoothly or to be a mess, just be aware that he may/probably act differently because he could be coming into his own maturity and take the heat cycle a little more seriously. As to how to handle it?? I have no experience there, hopefully Lies or some breeders that are used to dealing with it will chime in...seems like the consensus is to keep them separated.
> 
> My in-laws neighbor had brother/sister puppies. They didn't know the female was in heat and they bred before they got her spayed, and had nine puppies :-(. So I just think diligent separation is the key. I don't really have much else advice.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/thinking-about-becoming-breeder/392754-ideal-age-breed.html


Wow.....guess all of us are enduring endless rain...second day in a row here....hard to keep pups mentally and physically exhausted trapped in doors. 

We are hoping she will be ready to be spayed after her second and before her third heat....I really don't like the mess with the diapers and cloth covers....it is icky....will keep in mind about miles being more mature.....I guess I had it easy the first time with miles being so mellow....


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## mcdanfam

Castlemaid said:


> Yes, don't get complacent about him not caring about her being in heat - that can change. It has more to do with his maturity level than the 1st or 2nd or 3rd heat of the female.
> 
> Some Working Lines come from lines that are known to mature slow - he may be three or four years old before he shows interest in a female in heat. So if he seems to not care about it right now, that could change.
> 
> Gryffon never showed interest in females in heat - I'd ask club members to bring their female out and we would go for leash walks, or train side-by-side just so I could check his reaction - nothing. No interest at all.
> 
> But then he turned three, and it was like a switch went on in his head, and if there is a female in heat around, his normal brain goes on vacation, and some other nutso brain takes over, so be aware that things may change with your dog from one day to the next.


Will definitely keep that in mind....we are really wanting her spayed sooner than later but we were considering 2-3....trying to decide after reading the pros and cons.....so many articles to spay and so many for reasons not to spay....I know for certain I can't keep them apart her entire life....just wanted her to be at a good age before spaying...I wish we had vets in the Carolinas that did sterilization without removing all of her reproductive organs...


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## lhczth

Donovan showed interest in Deja being in heat by her second heat and noticed at her first. He noticed her far more than when Elena was in. He noticed his mother. He was slow to mature in some areas, but not when it came to the desire to breed.  

Watch the female closely and they must be separated for a good month just to be safe. If everyone in the household can not be diligent about this than best to get her spayed before she has her first heat. Living with a male and an in heat female is a pain in the neck.


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## Curtis

Just wanted to say you have some gorgeous, enviable dogs. 

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## mcdanfam

lhczth said:


> Donovan showed interest in Deja being in heat by her second heat and noticed at her first. He noticed her far more than when Elena was in. He noticed his mother. He was slow to mature in some areas, but not when it came to the desire to breed.
> 
> Watch the female closely and they must be separated for a good month just to be safe. If everyone in the household can not be diligent about this than best to get her spayed before she has her first heat. Living with a male and an in heat female is a pain in the neck.


Thanks for the heads up....guess each dog is different....I will watch him much closer....


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## mcdanfam

Curtis said:


> Just wanted to say you have some gorgeous, enviable dogs.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you!.....but that is one reason I love this forum....so many beautiful and amazing dogs. I hope grow and mature to be as great as others we have been blessed to spend time with. 


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