# Eastern European Shepherd



## LoneRider

I had been doing some reading and I heard about an Eastern European variant of the German Shepherd. From what I remember the Russians imported a few German Shepherd Dogs in the 1930s and then crossbreeding with various husky types for better adaptability to the harsh Russian winters.

It's not currently recognized by the AKC or the FCI from what I saw. They were bred for Soviet military use originally like the Black Russian Terriers were. 

I gather the GSD isn't quite as winter tolerant?


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## MaggieRoseLee

Look like a GSD but liver colored is ok and sables are not desired....


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## carmspack

From Linda Shaw's "the GSD family" 








Byelorussian Ovcharka. An attempt to recreate the GSD in the Soviet Union. In the 1930′s GSDs were crossed with Central Asian Ovcharkas, Russian Laikas and other local breeds, and was recognized as a separate breed in 1964. It began as a KGB prison dog, which preferred black or near black dogs, although all other GSD colours, as well as white and brindle, are accepted. Blue eyes also exist. It is a giant breed, at least 28 inches at the withers, preferrably taller. While touted as superior to the GSD, it’s huge size is a liability in most working venues, and it has yet to prove its abilities against German working lines.







Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. An FCI recognized Czech breed developed from a cross between the European wolf and the GSD, supposedly to produce a larger, healthier, super-shepherd. While similar to some Czech line GSDs in appearance, this dog has yet to participate in high level sport, although some take part in obedience and IPO sport. It is a light wolf grey in colour, and shows a more confident temperament than the Sarloos. Science is revealing that the domestic dog has evolved the capability to recognize human gestures and intonations of voice, an ability not possessed by the wolf. Dog and wolf should not be crossed again, and existing crosses should be selected for the dog’s more stable temperament.


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## KZoppa

The EES was pretty much bred the way it is so they can handle the winter seasons in Russia better. My history teacher in high school was Russian and brought his EES over from Russia. He said they're just like GSDs but heavier coats and tolerate winters better than a standard GSD. 

You're not likely going to find any EES here in the states unless owned directly by someone FROM Russia who brought them over with them. According to Mr. Koshevnikov that was the only way you were going to see them in the US or anywhere else outside of Russia. The Russians are very protective of their breed. If they're ever recognized by the AKC or FCI, it wouldn't be for a very very long time I'd think. 

Mr. K brought his to class one day. Intimidating dog actually. He was a good dog, very well trained but nobody really had the guts to approach him. He was a VERY serious dog. Believe Mr. K said he was six or seven years old at the time.


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## GSD07

We discussed EES on this board before. Someone even translated a Russian article about the history of the breed. Here's the link if you are interested http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/police-k-9/179031-russian-police-k-9-training.html 

Of note, if your GSD lives outdoors in Russia he will also develop a nice coat and will be just fine. I have somewhere a pic of a regular sable GSD from there, coat looks better then husky's, I'll post it if I find the pic.


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## NormanF

Czechoslovakian Wolfdog. An FCI recognized Czech breed developed from a cross between the European wolf and the GSD, supposedly to produce a larger, healthier, super-shepherd. While similar to some Czech line GSDs in appearance, this dog has yet to participate in high level sport, although some take part in obedience and IPO sport. It is a light wolf grey in colour, and shows a more confident temperament than the Sarloos. Science is revealing that the domestic dog has evolved the capability to recognize human gestures and intonations of voice, an ability not possessed by the wolf. Dog and wolf should not be crossed again, and existing crosses should be selected for the dog’s more stable temperament.

The Czech Vlcak is essentially a GSD in wolf's clothing! A hardy and courageous dog, not surprising given its Czech GSD lines ancestry, which is dominant despite the Carpathian Wolf contribution. There is a US breeder for it but its still quite rare. If you're expecting it to be a domesticated wolf, you're in for a disappointment despite its wild look. Think of it as a super GSD. Its not for the first time dog owner.


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## NormanF

Byelorussian Ovcharka. An attempt to recreate the GSD in the Soviet Union. In the 1930′s GSDs were crossed with Central Asian Ovcharkas, Russian Laikas and other local breeds, and was recognized as a separate breed in 1964. It began as a KGB prison dog, which preferred black or near black dogs, although all other GSD colours, as well as white and brindle, are accepted. Blue eyes also exist. It is a giant breed, at least 28 inches at the withers, preferrably taller. While touted as superior to the GSD, it’s huge size is a liability in most working venues, and it has yet to prove its abilities against German working lines.


The dog in the photo reminds me of my solid black GSD! The main issue with the Byelorussian Ovcharka isn't its beautiful appearance - is its size! Its just too big a dog for most people. The mainline GSD has the advantage because of its "Goldilocks" size - its neither too big nor too small and looks and feels "right." Bigness is not a virtue in most settings in which you want a dog! There is nothing to commend it (apart from size) over the GSD but for people looking into a King Shepherd or Shiloh Shepherd GSD-style dog, its a worthy alternative to consider.


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## NormanF

A classic black and tan saddle Eastern European Shepherd full face profile -










You get a beautiful and commanding dog! One used to have to go to Russia to import one but now there is a US breeder in Miami, FL:

http://www.russianshepherd.com/

Its not a dog for every one but it can be a pleasure to those wanting a super sized GSD!


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## NormanF

You're not likely going to find any EES here in the states unless owned directly by someone FROM Russia who brought them over with them. According to Mr. Koshevnikov that was the only way you were going to see them in the US or anywhere else outside of Russia. The Russians are very protective of their breed. If they're ever recognized by the AKC or FCI, it wouldn't be for a very very long time I'd think. 


My friend, you're mistaken! There is an authorized US breeder for the EES in Miami FL. Its a rare breed though and if you're fortunate enough to acquire one of these beautiful dogs AND can live with having a giant-sized GSD - then you're blessed -

http://www.russianshepherd.com/

I can imagine well though a puppy will not be cheap!


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## andreaB

Just want to thank you all for posting this interesting topic. fun to read it.


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## GSD07

Those dogs are not giant sized, not super sized, please stop spreading misinformation. If you want a supersized dog please get a Caucasian ovcharka.


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## NormanF

GSD07 said:


> Those dogs are not giant sized, not super sized, please stop spreading misinformation. If you want a supersized dog please get a Caucasian ovcharka.


Its 28 inches at the withers! A standard GSD is 24 inches at the withers. The EES is a still a VERY big dog - what else would you call it? And its not the same as a Caucasian Ovcharka - its a very different dog!


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## GSD07

Coat of a regular GSD living outdoors in cold climate.


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## GSD07

Well, American shepherds are giant dogs as well then, many of them are 28-30 inches. I know EES not from pictures and two paragraphs from the internet, but if you want to believe that Russian dogs are bigger and better then I'm all for it


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## NormanF

GSD07 said:


> Well, American shepherds are giant dogs as well then, many of them are 28-30 inches. I know EES not from pictures and two paragraphs from the internet, but if you want to believe that Russian dogs are bigger and better then I'm all for it


Some people find the idea of a giant GSD cool. The bigger the dog, the better. To them, the standard GSD looks like a toy dog, lol


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## KZoppa

NormanF said:


> You're not likely going to find any EES here in the states unless owned directly by someone FROM Russia who brought them over with them. According to Mr. Koshevnikov that was the only way you were going to see them in the US or anywhere else outside of Russia. The Russians are very protective of their breed. If they're ever recognized by the AKC or FCI, it wouldn't be for a very very long time I'd think.
> 
> 
> My friend, you're mistaken! There is an authorized US breeder for the EES in Miami FL. Its a rare breed though and if you're fortunate enough to acquire one of these beautiful dogs AND can live with having a giant-sized GSD - then you're blessed -
> 
> RUSSIAN SHEPHERD TRYNEE IN MIAMI FLORIDA
> 
> I can imagine well though a puppy will not be cheap!


 
what exactly is it that makes them "Authorized"? I see nothing on their website other than them saying they are. There's no such thing. I'm telling you what I was told by a RUSSIAN who had an EES. Russia barely allows the dogs out of the country. They want to keep their dogs as close as possible. 

I've wanted one for a while but without going to Russia myself and bringing one back, I don't trust anyone saying they're breeding the EES here. Could very easily be just oversized shepherds.


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## martemchik

It's a glorified large GSD...the Russians took the biggest GSDs they could, bred them to some other breeds, and then threw more GSD in there. That's why the dog looks like a German Shepherd.

Most Russians will tell you the dog isn't as smart or trainable as a GSD, but its larger and stronger so it is capable of doing more "working" type jobs. It was bred on the same idea as the Caucasian Ovcharka...most of the stock was GSD, just larger breeds introduced and also breeding the largest specimens of each generation.

If you wish to question my knowledge, I grew up in Eastern Europe...still have a lot of friends and family in Eastern Europe, and was praised for getting a GSD rather than any of their Russian "counterparts" as many prefer the German dogs anyways. The dogs in the United States (there are more breeders) have questionable temperaments due to such a small variety of genetics available and many times get crossed with GSD because no one can tell the difference anyways (especially with American dogs getting up to 30 inches as well).

As to getting recognized by the FCI or AKC...I wouldn't hold your breath. Too much GSD genetics and its pretty much a "variety" of GSD and therefor will never be allowed to register.


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## KZoppa

martemchik said:


> It's a glorified large GSD...the Russians took the biggest GSDs they could, bred them to some other breeds, and then threw more GSD in there. That's why the dog looks like a German Shepherd.
> 
> Most Russians will tell you the dog isn't as smart or trainable as a GSD, but its larger and stronger so it is capable of doing more "working" type jobs. It was bred on the same idea as the Caucasian Ovcharka...most of the stock was GSD, just larger breeds introduced and also breeding the largest specimens of each generation.
> 
> If you wish to question my knowledge, I grew up in Eastern Europe...still have a lot of friends and family in Eastern Europe, and was praised for getting a GSD rather than any of their Russian "counterparts" as many prefer the German dogs anyways. The dogs in the United States (there are more breeders) have questionable temperaments due to such a small variety of genetics available and many times get crossed with GSD because no one can tell the difference anyways (especially with American dogs getting up to 30 inches as well).
> 
> As to getting recognized by the FCI or AKC...I wouldn't hold your breath. Too much GSD genetics and its pretty much a "variety" of GSD and therefor will never be allowed to register.


 
well put


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## carmspack

I think with all these attempts of dog (GSD) and Wolf crosses there is a lot of romanticism , mythology , and commerce involved.

Why not coyote . Since one subspecies of Eastern Coyote is already quite mixed in DNA with "dog" and possibly minor notes of wolf . Coyotes and wolf "hate" each other and do not share territory . 
Coyotes are very smart , resourceful and deal with our urban lives well . When you have a coyote running along the curbside in early morning in Toronto's Beach area - that is being comfortable with proximity to people.
So part of the answer to why not coyote is that it would not stir the imagination and attract people to wanting one.

So what other experiments have been done. Again in Russia there were attempts to create a dog with super olfactory skills to be used around the air bases , on airliners . That combination was a gene collection of indigenous reindeer driving dogs and a jackal .
"
, "My dogs combine the qualities of Arctic reindeer herding dogs, which can work in temperatures as low as -70C" this is a quote from Sulimov . SEE , though , there was no reason or need to go into wolf hybrid when there were already dogs capable of living in minus 70C . Sulimov Dog

Russians breed superdog with a jackal's nose for bombs and drugs - Telegraph

Have a look at this from one of my favourite sciency shows Catalyst "Dog Brain" Catalyst: Dog Brain - ABC TV Science


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## LoneRider

I'm certain an EES would consume a fair amount of food compared to other herding breeds like the Belgian Malinois (that's the herding breed I've got the most experience dealing with). 



> As to getting recognized by the FCI or AKC...I wouldn't hold your breath. Too much GSD genetics and its pretty much a "variety" of GSD and therefor will never be allowed to register.


I figured as much. 

This topic came up because I had been reading a book on the Russian military and it mentioned something about 'large GSDs' and I became curious about GSDs in Russia and the EES was the first thing that came up on the google search.


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## NormanF

carmspack said:


> I think with all these attempts of dog (GSD) and Wolf crosses there is a lot of romanticism , mythology , and commerce involved.
> 
> Why not coyote . Since one subspecies of Eastern Coyote is already quite mixed in DNA with "dog" and possibly minor notes of wolf . Coyotes and wolf "hate" each other and do not share territory .
> Coyotes are very smart , resourceful and deal with our urban lives well . When you have a coyote running along the curbside in early morning in Toronto's Beach area - that is being comfortable with proximity to people.
> So part of the answer to why not coyote is that it would not stir the imagination and attract people to wanting one.
> 
> So what other experiments have been done. Again in Russia there were attempts to create a dog with super olfactory skills to be used around the air bases , on airliners . That combination was a gene collection of indigenous reindeer driving dogs and a jackal .
> "
> , "My dogs combine the qualities of Arctic reindeer herding dogs, which can work in temperatures as low as -70C" this is a quote from Sulimov . SEE , though , there was no reason or need to go into wolf hybrid when there were already dogs capable of living in minus 70C . Sulimov Dog
> 
> Russians breed superdog with a jackal's nose for bombs and drugs - Telegraph
> 
> Have a look at this from one of my favourite sciency shows Catalyst "Dog Brain" Catalyst: Dog Brain - ABC TV Science


The Czechs wanted to create a super GSD. Their experiment was successful because they knew what they were looking for - and the idea was to combine the best qualities of the GSD with the best qualities of the Carpathian wolf. Good breeders follow a map and with the Vlcak, the goals were met and a new dog breed was born. Its a beautiful dog and if you can give it what it needs, it can serve you well!


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## Jax08

NormanF - what is your personal experience with these dog? I just wonder as you seem to be contradicting experienced GSD breeders and people who have grown up around some of the breeds discussed here.


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## NormanF

Jax08 said:


> NormanF - what is your personal experience with these dog? I just wonder as you seem to be contradicting experienced GSD breeders and people who have grown up around some of the breeds discussed here.


I am a first time GSD owner. I've written that this dog is NOT for the first time dog owner. If you already have plenty of experience, a Vlcak or EES could be something to take on. I admire the beauty, intelligence and strength of these animals but I know my limits and I would never counsel any one to take on a new breed of dog without prior experience first.


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## Jax08

That's not what I asked you. LOL 

I just wondered what your personal experience was with these dogs. If you have personal experience, please share so we can all learn. If you are just looking up info on the 'net and repeating it, please post your references so we can all learn.


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## NormanF

Jax08 said:


> That's not what I asked you. LOL
> 
> I just wondered what your personal experience was with these dogs. If you have personal experience, please share so we can all learn. If you are just looking up info on the 'net and repeating it, please post your references so we can all learn.


LOL. I have no personal experience with these dogs. I looked them on Wikipedia and breed sites. I'm just repeating what is common sense with rare breed dogs. I don't claim to have like a real life acquaintance with them. My GSD is already of plenty of dog enough for me!


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## Jax08

When you post tidbits from sites, could you please post the site as well? I know this was brought up the health section and I think it's just as valid here so that people can continue their own research and be aware of where "facts" are coming from.


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## martemchik

LoneRider said:


> This topic came up because I had been reading a book on the Russian military and it mentioned something about 'large GSDs' and I became curious about GSDs in Russia and the EES was the first thing that came up on the google search.


You can pretty much equate it to the English "Alsatian." The Russians just wanted to make something that was their own, and back then everyone wanted to have the biggest so they wanted to make a claim for the most BA dog IMO (as far as countries went).

The reason many of these dogs are known for being "meaner" is the way they've been raised for decades by Russian people who used them for protection of their lands and still do. In contrast...the GSD has mainly become a pet with no real job and even our top breeding stock is generally a pet that doesn't really HAVE to protect its land.

There is also less restriction on breeding (when it comes to the home country) and so dogs just get bred based on whatever the breeder or the current owner wants. On top of that...there was much less money so people would breed dogs and sell them just to make a buck (or ruble) and there wasn't (and still isn't) the idea of responsible breeding. In all technicality, a mean/fearful dog does the job its supposed to at the end of the day by scaring off anyone that comes near it.

As far as wolves go...I don't think any wolf was mixed into the lines. If it was...it was generations back as a test and was probably washed out ten-fold since then. The Russians are actually very knowledgeable when it comes to dogs and breeding, they're the ones that ran that test on "domesticating foxes" and their new bomb sniffing dogs that have wild dogs mixed in.

I bet the government had some very good reasons for mixing breeds...but once the dogs were in the hands of private citizens, they did what they pleased...clearly the same thing that happened to the GSD.


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## Jax08

The English "Alsation" is still a purebred German Shepherd though, isn't it? As far as I know, they only changed what they call the dogs during WWII but not the breeding itself.


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## martemchik

Jax08 said:


> The English "Alsation" is still a purebred German Shepherd though, isn't it? As far as I know, they only changed what they call the dogs during WWII but not the breeding itself.


Yeah but my point was that they changed it mostly for the name. The truth is, 99% of us wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a GSD and a EES. With how much variation there is in the breed...you'd never know.

There probably aren't the biggest of pedigrees...but I'm pretty sure GSD has been mixed in plenty of times since the start of the "breed" that its probably 95% or more GSD.

Think about it...the other breeds were mixed in back in 1930...since then they've gone more towards the GSD and have used more GSD whenever they wanted. So although if you were to trace the pedigrees they wouldn't be "pure" it would be pretty hard to figure out what they are at this point.

I'm sure some people would debate me on this but I would figure it would be almost impossible to prove you have anything close to a "pure EES" unless its coming from Europe/Russia. At the same time...that dog has probably had GSD in its lines within 5 generations so could you really consider it "pure"?

I'm not saying breeders do this...I've only heard of people claiming to be breeding EES in the states and never met them...but it would almost be a perfect plan for a BYB that's breeding unpapered GSD to call them EES and make it a marketing thing.


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## Jax08

Understood...and agree.


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## GSD07

martemchik said:


> There is also less restriction on breeding (when it comes to the home country) and so dogs just get bred based on whatever the breeder or the current owner wants.


 Russian purebred dogs have registration papers, pedigrees and ear tatoos. You can breed whatever you want, of course, but you will not see any papers and no one will pay any money for the pups the non-papered dogs produce. I think, papers are more important there then here. For example, in Eastern Europe you will not be able to take your non-papered not registered dog for hunting.


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## GSD07

Here's a link to a EES kennel Âîñòî÷íîåâðîïåéñêàÿ îâ÷àðêà Ãëàâíàÿ ñòàíèöà Ïèòîìíèê ÂÅÎ Ìîíøåð Âèðñàëü , with lots of pics and first hand info. There is a little flag icon at the top to activate use google translator.


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## Jax08

The second one from the left looks like my girl!


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## martemchik

GSD07 said:


> For example, in Eastern Europe you will not be able to take your non-papered not registered dog for hunting.


Really? And you know this how? I've never heard of such a thing...and a Russian/Eastern European following the law on something like that...good luck. I can see having your dog registered with the authorities (just like in the US you have to register your pet with your local municipality) but everyone I know just wants papers because its a "status symbol" and means you've got the money to buy a purebred rather than just adopting the next stray that comes into their yard.

My family here doesn't really like to get licenses for hunting/fishing (they still do) but in Russia...they'd find someone's private land to do it on, pay them some money, and not worry about any laws.

As to the website you posted...I'm sure there are registries but they are like the alternative breed registries in the United States. Like the Shiloh Shepherd registry started by the "founder" of the breed. It's kind of to keep track of the dogs and see what's being bred/approved but its not an FCI type registry that in theory could go back to the early 1900. Sorry...I also know Russian people, and all about the fall of communism and I just wouldn't trust much in the terms of "papers" from there.

At the end of the day...that website proves my point. Those dogs look just like GSDs. They're so close that I would almost rather consider them a different blood line like we do with DDR or Czech than a separate breed.


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## GSD07

Yes, really, and your dog has to be one of hunting breed, not just any breed. There is a reason for this, main one is protecting wild life. You are welcome to go and read the regulations (you know the language, right?) and ask your family. Your comments about no one out there following the law and 'status symbol' I will leave unanswered because they are insulting generalizations. Russian Kynological Federation is of course an alternative registry just because it's not American, dear God, loads of misinformation and some kind of based on nothing superiority....


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## hattifattener

yep,registered dogs of hunting breeds only.


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## martemchik

To expand a little on the website...

They even tell you that the first dog with that kennel name was in 1994. The kennel itself only registered with the registry in 2002. How do you get a "pure" history when the history is only 20 years old. How is one to know what went on before 1994? Or how does one know what has been going on from 1994-2002?

Again, I'm not disputing that this dog has other breeds in it...but I have doubts that the whole breed started or has grown from a set amount of lets say 10 dogs from back when the Russian government decided to start mixing breeds. If you look at other breeds that have been mixed with something from the northern group...they tend to have some features of those dogs (Shiloh Shepherds for example clearly have smaller malamute type ears). These dogs look like copies of GSDs...makes you wonder how many times a GSD was brought back into the bloodline.


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## GSD07

You don't wonder, you read the history of the breed and learn. Go ahead and read the link to our discussion on this board that was provided in the earlier post, everything is explained there.


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## martemchik

I'm not trying to upset anyone, but its pretty well known that Russian history isn't the most "honest." Especially when it comes to keeping track of things. And I'm going off of pretty much how my father perceives everything to do with the Russian Government or any official Russian entity...btw he holds a Russian passport.

The RKF is not an alternative registry in the sense of what I meant...I looked into it and it is pretty much the AKC in Russia. I didn't make that statement because of where it is...I made that statement because I'm not sure what the guidelines are for having your dog registered there as it seems to me they only accept FCI approved breeds (which brings into question if they recognize an EES as a breed).


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## carmspack

I have a Romanian friend who was a Dr specializing in gynecology there , came to Canada , fulfilled requirements to pick up her tickets , passing top marks U of T - but forced to take another specialty, so a very bright person who had privileges to travel and a decent income and status , so got around and saw things. We compare notes on medical issues and alternative treatments and on life behind the curtain and as it pertains to dogs.

so Martemchik you said "...I also know Russian people, and all about the fall of communism and I just wouldn't trust much in the terms of "papers" from there."

Pretty much what she says. Pretty much what was said by one broker who travelled to get eastern bloc dogs as soon as possible . Papers are made . 

any comments.


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## GSD07

And in Germany/US/Canada papers are not made  I would also be surprised if a Romanian friend liked Russians, and if Martemchik's father were Russian not only by holding a Russian passport. Simply because I haven't met a single Russian who taught their children look down on Russian people and their motherland. Governments come and go, the people are not defined by governments (or are they?).


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## martemchik

Yeah it happens...I know countless doctors and dentists from the former USSR that immigrated and then had to go back to school to get another degree in their profession. Most either ended up being nurses, dental assistants, dental hygienists, or something else in the medical field...and still had to get that degree or certification including the required hours of education.

But that's not really why I'm confused about this being a separate breed. Sure...the paperwork has something to do with it and not being able to "trust" the Russian papers. But mostly its because if a GSD and an EES mated...you wouldn't be able to tell the difference of those pups from regular GSD pups. The standard is pretty much the same for both dogs, their real world application is exactly the same, and they look pretty much the same.

Maybe its the fact that this is such a "newly" recognized breed by that registry (only 1970's) and that it's development pretty much coincided with the development of the GSD (early 1900s til now). They admit that the history started with importing GSD to start the line and then introducing more of it in order to keep more of those traits rather than the northern traits they originally mixed to get a heavier coat.

If you look at historical pictures of GSD...its pretty easy to see that they have shorter coats that are less suited for cold weather. If you look at today's show lines and even some of today's WL they are much plushier than those older pictures. So both lines pretty much ended up in the same place, except that the German dogs didn't have another breed introduced into the line...just were bred for a plushier coat. Same thing when it comes to size...we clearly have examples today of larger GSD than what the standard calls for...many breeders are breeding for this size, again, without introducing a different breed...just selectively breeding larger dogs.


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## martemchik

GSD07 said:


> And in Germany/US/Canada papers are not made  I would also be surprised if a Romanian friend liked Russians, and if Martemchik's father were Russian not only by holding a Russian passport. Simply because I haven't met a single Russian who taught their children look down on Russian people and their motherland. Governments come and go, the people are not defined by governments (or are they?).


I consider myself Russian fyi. I don't look down on the Russian people or the motherland...I don't trust the government (which has changed in MY short life for what its worth) or the official agencies there. And I haven't met a single Russian that DOES trust that government. Russians will support their government/county to the death...I won't deny that...but to say that the majority trust their government...I'd question that. I'm very proud of my Russian heritage...which is exactly why I separate it from the current/previous government.

I completely agree with you that papers are made in the US/Germany/Canada...it isn't impossible to have a litter by one dog or bitch and register it under a different one. As long as they look like they're supposed to...no one will question it. Which is why I don't believe these dogs are that different from the GSD we have. I believe they're just another division due to distance/borders/breeding practices. ASL, WGSL, WGWL, DDR, Czech, EES...they're all GSD IMO.


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## cliffson1

I am learning a lot of new information here, I can see I have not known my history of the breed as well as I thought I did. Very interesting!


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## GSD07

martemchik said:


> I believe they're just another division due to distance/borders/breeding practices. ASL, WGSL, WGWL, DDR, Czech, EES...they're all GSD IMO.


 You are preaching to the choir here. If you read my prev. posts on the subject you would see that that is exactly what everyone out there thinks, especially in the earlier years. EES is needed for distinguishing these dogs from western GSDs since the temperament is really a bit different. 



martemchik said:


> And I haven't met a single Russian that DOES trust that government.


 Not exactly. Russians do not trust ANY government LOL. You should go there sometime, make your own impressions re the country and people.


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## hattifattener

pre ww2 and post ww2 EES are two different things.
there is little connection between them,because breed was nearly eliminated during ww2,so i ignore all these pre war experiments. 

and soviets had free access to many german kennels,at least in their occupation zone.

EES is a GSD basically,just breeding goals are slightly different.


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## mrsmindbender

*Tyberius*

We believe we have an EES. My fiance and I purchased what we thought was a GSD puppy from a police officer in our home town. After our dog, Tyberius, got to be about seven or eight months old we noticed his markings and color was not that of a typical GSD. He also had a ton of energy and was quite a feisty little monster.

I started doing some research on the internet and that's when I found the website easteuropeanshepherds.com. I sent them pictures and I was told that Tyberius is more than likely an EES. Our vet is also familiar with the breed. 

Tyberius was a monster, now he is a great dog. He loves the water and the cold weather. He is perfectly happy laying outside in the ice and cold. 

We have a 112 lb Lab, named Shadow. Tyberius is a year old and he is already taller than Shadow.


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## sweetGSD

I am learning a great deal about shepherds on this site. Thanks so much. ?


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## carmspack

a comment on this

"The Czechs wanted to create a super GSD. Their experiment was successful because they knew what they were looking for - and the idea was to combine the best qualities of the GSD with the best qualities of the Carpathian wolf. Good breeders follow a map and with the Vlcak, the goals were met and a new dog breed was born. Its a beautiful dog and if you can give it what it needs, it can serve you well"

that's not entirely right --

Around 1995 we had the privilege of having a young , recent immigrant to Canada , become our decoy and our friend. We had him as our club decoy . Straight from Czechoslavkia , a k9 trainer at the government run Pohranicni Straze . As his English skills got better we could ask him about the dogs, the programme, his experience.

He showed pictures of the stone and stucco cottage in "the woods" provided by the government . And the kennels immediately , less than 50 feet from his back door, which housed the "Czech-wolf dogs". 

He said it was an experiment that failed. The dogs were too shy for pro-active aggression and more instinct than drive so difficult to train . 

Years later he established himself , had a somewhat remote property with some acreage, got his business up and running , he brought a few of the Czech wolf dogs to Ontario because there was so much keen interest , novelty factor. 
A couple of us got to see them close up. ??? Not a GSD! 

The Dutch version of the GSD x Wolf cross , the Sarloos dog pretty much has the same experience . 
Fail for working.


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## carmspack

Are the 2014 Winter Olympics hosted by Russia already forgotten , just a memory?

In preparation for the games there was a lot of clean-up done. Hundreds and hundreds of dogs "disappeared" (culled) . These dogs lived on the streets. There were pictures of them riding the subways - in alleys, in the town squares -- everywhere -- every type of coat and every type of ancestry. Life is harsh , the climate is harsh , yet these dogs survived the conditions . Super thick coats isn't the full explanation for creating hybrids

Some were very large shepherdy looking dogs .


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## Blondi's Revenge

carmspack said:


> Are the 2014 Winter Olympics hosted by Russia already forgotten , just a memory?
> 
> In preparation for the games there was a lot of clean-up done. Hundreds and hundreds of dogs "disappeared" (culled) . These dogs lived on the streets. There were pictures of them riding the subways - in alleys, in the town squares -- everywhere -- every type of coat and every type of ancestry. Life is harsh , the climate is harsh , yet these dogs survived the conditions . Super thick coats isn't the full explanation for creating hybrids
> 
> Some were very large shepherdy looking dogs .


I remember hearing about these dogs, that would ride the subway and get off at certain stops. Send smaller cuter dogs to beg for food from other passengers. It's a shame they would get rid of these dogs - that's truly disheartening 


Furthermore. I think I saw one of these eastern German Shepherd dogs at a shelter. They had a few German Shepherd dogs but this one came off as different. His bark was deeper, he had a completely different disposition. He was taller/thinner built but very solid. Looked kind of wolfish


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