# to fix or not to fix that is the question



## lomaxanderson (May 7, 2008)

Please help us decide if and when to neuter our mason...wife and i are on the fence...he was pick of the litter and is one year old next week...she wants to and i want to at least wait till he is 2 or so....what say yall?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

if he doesnt have any behavior or temperment issues & is not at risk of getting anyone pregnant, then sure wait until two. i'm confused as to why you mentioned he was pick of the litter - is there a chance that you'll breed him? because whether or not you should breed is a different story. but even still, gotta wait til two for ofa's.

right off the bat tho, if you arent a professional breeder, and he wasnt sold to you with breeding rights... then neuter him!


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I wish I wouldn't have, only because my GSD has a number of health problems and I often wonder if the hormone imbalance from neutering isn't a contributing factor. He was neutered at about 1 1/2 years. I noticed very little change in him at the time.

Of course I'm assuming that you can train your boy while he is unneutered, and also that you can ensure that there are no unwanted pregnancies.


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## lomaxanderson (May 7, 2008)

Thanks for the replies ...he has proven very easy to work with ...great with small kids and very quick to learn...we did not get him with intennt of breeding but do have the rights...and he is showing alot of "natural"ability to search and trail with little training...my wife is a Homemaker so he gets lots of time to work.We feel we are able to prevent any pregnancies as he is always with one of us or inside the house...
My main concern is him getting stuck in puppyhood if he is fixxed before mature.Is this warrented?What are the benifits of an intact male other than breeding? what do people feel the benifits of neutering are? thanks


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## gdog1985 (May 6, 2008)

I'm getting Gunner fixed next week, he'll be 2 in July. My thoughts are if you're not going to breed, get him fixed!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

bump


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Many people say wait until 18-24 months old. I knew for sure I wanted to wait until Keefer was a year old, but I didn't really want to wait until he was two. I ended up having it done at 15 months. He already had a big head and masculine look to him, and I don't see any personality changes at all. He'll be 3 at the end of August.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that getting a dog fixed is purely for our convenience unless there is a medical reason, such as testicular cancer. Testicular cancer happens in less than 1% of dogs and is easy to fix when it is found. 

However, there is a correlation between early spay and neuter and osteosarcoma which is a death sentence. There are many other things including problems due to improper growth that are related to spaying or neutering before a dog is full grown. 

There is always the threat of side effects or death from the anesthetic. It happens. Even if the dog just has a bit of oxygen deprivation and lives, it could cause siezures later on. At least this is known to be the case with humans. With all the dogs out there with epilepsy, I wonder how many are neutered, and how many did not show any problems before they were neutered. My friends bitch was nine when she spayed her. Shortly after she started having siezures. A lot of dogs are diagnosed with epilepsy between 2 and 3. It just makes me wonder. 

Doubtless you have a list of pros and cons. No one from your vet to your groomer to your trainer will tell you NOT to neuter your dog. Perhaps it is true that 90% of people cannot keep an intact dog celibate. Who knows? But Neutering is not synonimous with responsible dog ownership. 

Good luck.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

to me, an un neutered dog is the equivalent of a man that cannont have sex or masterbate for 12-14yrs. 

its just my personal belief, therefore i wouldnt do it to my dog.

until spaying & neutering is linked to HD or obsession with the cat litterbox - i will continue to have my girls spayed before their first heat and my males neutered once his desired male characteristics are developed (as cassidy's mom mentioned above) which is usually prior to two. i've yet to experience any 'cons'.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Never fix a good male GSD. Opionated yes, but recent medical studies indicate that neutering a male GSD creates more health problems then it alleviates. 

The same studies regarding a female are quite different.

If you want a copy of the recent info I will be glad to try and find, and post. The study has been posted on this board before, but if you cannot find it, i would be glad to help.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) in both males and females is linked to early spay/neuter. 

Joint porblems due to speuter before the growth plates close may contribute to hip and elbow dysplasia. 

I do not ever want a dog to go under anesthesia unless it is NECESSARY. Neutering/spaying is generally done for CONVENIENCE. 

I have two young intact males and they do not seem frustrated like a guy who hasn't masterbated or had sex in fourteen years. Sorry, but that statement just bothered me. Every training class I go to, Rushie becomes an exhibitionist, but Cujo lets his dothingy out and about on occasion too and he was neutered at 18 weeks. And my older boy, almost 4, I never notice his out. Yes, they will grunt at eachother and pace if there is a bitch in heat, but it doesn't hurt them any. 

There was a study that showed that spaying bitches young often makes them more fearful. There are studies about all kinds of stuff, but I have heard in more places than one that spayed bitches can be more guarding and aggressive than intact bitches. 

Those hormones are there for a reason. They are for people, and they are for canines too. 

The next canine of mine that gets fixed will have a life threatening condition. To me it doesn't make sense to threaten your dog's life and health to fix something that isn't broken.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Holisticly, for the sake of the 'whole' dog, I would never neuter. I have never had a neutered male, and truly, the dogs were never restless, pacing, superdominant, aggressive, testoreone-hyped maniacal monsters hellbent on conquering females and territory and ruling the roost... just calm, well-trained dogs. To be truthful, I have never had a male who marked-- not even on walks. Just my experiences.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfHolisticly, for the sake of the 'whole' dog, I would never neuter. I have never had a neutered male, and truly, the dogs were never restless, pacing, superdominant, aggressive, testoreone-hyped maniacal monsters hellbent on conquering females and territory and ruling the roost... just calm, well-trained dogs. To be truthful, I have never had a male who marked-- not even on walks. Just my experiences.


Your post cracked me up!









I have a male that is almost 9yo and NOT neutered. Has never "done it", and is not a phsycho, "sex" driven maniac either. In fact when we are out in public, folks are SURPRISED when they discover he is intact. (He is not a GSD he is an ACD/Aussie mix. He has less coat than a GSD and you can see his testicles when he is walking away from you due to the shorter coat and natural bob-tail. That is when folks figure out he is intact, because they see "them," not because he "uses" them.)

As far as marking, intact males, neutered males, spayed and unspayed females can ALL be "markers" or not.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> However, there is a correlation between early spay and neuter and osteosarcoma which is a death sentence.


Please post research, not sponsored by a biased organization, NOT in breeds already predisposed to osteosarcoma, to substantiate this. 

Not saying that information doesn't exist, just want to see it! Thank you!


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## lomaxanderson (May 7, 2008)

Hmmm...lots to consider...I belive that most problems such as marking and excitability around females in heat can all be overcome with proper training and repeatition...I too feel that the majority of pets are fixxed for their owners convience...For now we will wait awhile and see...How do you know if you want to breed before he fully develops?That is a decision that can not be reversed.I am fully aware of responsable breeding so that to me is a mute argument...Thanks for all the first hand knowledge offered ...has more weight to me than someone who profits from their recomendation...
Pictures coming soon...I am still amazed at how easy and great he has been to deal with ...1 year and only one shoe:]


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: selzer
> ...


I'm not sure it's out there when you put not in breeds already predisposed since that makes up most of the med/large dog breeds. 

This piece is from an article not on neuter.org
"Risk for bone sarcoma was significantly influenced by age at gonadectomy. Male and female dogs that underwent gonadectomy before 1 year of age had an approximate one in four lifetime risk for bone sarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact [RR ±95% CI = 3.8 (1.5–9.2) for males; RR ±95% CI = 3.1 (1.1–8.3) for females]. 2 test for trend showed a highly significant inverse dose-response relationship between duration of lifetime gonadal exposure and incidence rate of bone sarcoma (P = 0.008 for males, P = 0.006 for females). This association was independent of adult height or body weight. We conclude that the subset of Rottweiler dogs that undergo early gonadectomy represent a unique, highly accessible target population to further study the gene:environment interactions that determine bone sarcoma risk and to test whether interventions can inhibit the spontaneous development of bone sarcoma. "
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/11/11/1434

I think what needs to be done is to use EXTREME caution in suggesting that everyone leave their dogs intact for their entire life.








Everyone who has been on this board for more than a month knows that there are a lot of irresopnsible owners out there who will take that and run with it....and that would not be a good thing.

I do think though that responisble, careful pet owners should consider leaving their dog intact until mature.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thanks for bringing up that study, mine was in an e-mail format, and though I know I kept it, it would take forever to dig it out. 

What irritates me about spay and neuter is that everyone is so gung ho for everyone to do it that they ignore all the risks and put out a lot of misinformation about it. 

For example, my main reason for neutering Cujo was that I was giving him to my parents, and I was encouraged by vets and by trainers that neutering males will make them easier to manage. Cujo is no easier to manage than Rushie and Rushie has all of his parts. That is one case. 

People come up to me in pet stores and while discussing how great my dog is, they then accuse me of wanting the dog to get cancer because he is not neutered. When in fact the opposite is true. 

Rescue people pretty much feel that the ends justify the means when encouraging people to spay neuter. 

Vets pretty much figure the price tag of the spay neuter is worth encouraging everyone to do this. And they do not bother to mention the problems that spaying/neutering and anesthetic may cause. 

And people like attach spaying/neutering to responsible dog ownership like love and marriage. When there is nothing further from the truth. Spay/neuter allows you to be less responsible about your dogs, it is ok if he runs over and plays with the neighbor's bitch, he's fixed. I think not. 

And all of this leads the way for legislation to be passed for spay/neuter requirements for dogs as young as four months old. 

I would rather see us tell people, that if they wish to keep their dog intact, they need to be vigilent about containing the dog. Whether the dog is neutered or not, they need to be vigilent about containment. People have to stop being lax about security.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Yeah-Rottweilers are one of the breeds that really get hit hard by it. http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/Kramer/index.php lists the breeds. There is another article refuting the information in that study, but just want to agree with you about the need for caution in terms of your last three paragraphs-that makes a LOT of sense. If you can be on top of your dog all the time-and honestly you understand you, your limitations, your dog and their drives and have them trained to a high level...it is possible to keep them intact until maturity. But if you have an ounce of lazy in you...I'd be careful!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I'll never forget the first time I saw a grocery basket of adorable puppies being wheeled off to be euthanized. Why? The shelter already had too many dogs. Until that stops I won't stop advocating that people speuter. I have no issue with waiting until the dog is mature IF the people are willing to be extra vigilant. For many people that isn't going to happen. 

For some reason our shelters are full of unwanted puppies. So there must be some dogs out there who smell a female in heat and get the idea that it's a good idea to climb the fence and get to her. 

My brother had an unneutered male who would take off for weeks sometimes. I saw his dog wandering around the neighborhood after my brother had moved out of the neighborhood...and then realized it must have been one of my brother's dog's offspring. Was my brother responsible? Nope. And why didn't he get his dog neutered. Because "it wasn't natural." 

Unfortunately while the OP is hopefully very responsible, there are far too many people out there like my brother. They open the door, the dog scoots out and before your know there are puppies in the picture. Or maybe they want their kids to experience "just one litter." What their kids don't experience is the puppies getting big and ending up in shelters.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So basically, the ends justify the means. 

I am probably one of the laziest people alive, but I have yet to have a litter I did not plan. Rushie is over two and has not yet had the pleasure of performing the deed. I have five intact females and not a one of them has gotten preggers yet, the younger ones will be two in August, the older ones will be three in August. 

It isn't that hard. 

There has to be two irresponsible people for an accidental neighborhood breeding. Encouraging everyone to speuter in hopes that the group of ignorant people who let their animals breed indiscriminently will not breed them isn't the answer. Especially with the risks associated with speuter. Because only the people who ARE responsible will bother. These people COULD manage their animals being intact. The idiots will not bother and you will still have dogs/puppies dying in shelters.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Because only the people who ARE responsible will bother. These people COULD manage their animals being intact. The idiots will not bother and you will still have dogs/puppies dying in shelters.


 Well put. Most of the dogs I see running at large are NOT neutered. (Obviously I don't know if the females are spayed or not) Is it because the dog "escaped". Heck NO. It is because the owners are too lazy to train him and/or keep him confined. (In other words they are the "idiots" you mentioned.)


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANYeah-Rottweilers are one of the breeds that really get hit hard by it. http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/Kramer/index.php lists the breeds. There is another article refuting the information in that study, but just want to agree with you about the need for caution in terms of your last three paragraphs-that makes a LOT of sense. If you can be on top of your dog all the time-and honestly you understand you, your limitations, your dog and their drives and have them trained to a high level...it is possible to keep them intact until maturity. But if you have an ounce of lazy in you...I'd be careful!


Jean - Thanks for that link. Interesting aside - I've known 5 people with dogs who died of Osteosarcomo.
Newfoundland/Flat Coat X
Flat Coat
German Shorthair Pointer
Greyhound (Puppy, 11 months at Dx, that was very sad)
Great Dane 

1 on the list.

I agree, I don't think all the information is in. Nor do I believe that neutering/spaying early is the only contribution - **** the way the enviorment is right now who knows what else might be happening.
We do the best we can given the information that we have at the time (That's the only way I can keep from beating myself up for feeding my poor cats Caramel and Toffee Purina cat food!).

Sadly so much goes back to education and reponsibility. How much of our lives would be so much better if everyone took the time to educate themselves and acted reponsible?


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

For several years now some in the rescue/shelter community have been s/neuter the pups at 12 weeks. Recently I heard that that has gone to even younger. I know why it is being done (because people don't do it after they adopt the animal) but I think it may be pushing the envelope too far. 
I haven't had many male dogs. The one I neutered, came to me at 4 with a history of roaming. He had a retained testical that we wouldn't have known about unless we neutered him (both testicals were large.) 
The only dog I have personally known with bone cancer was intact. He was 15 or 16 when he died of heart failure. Purely anecdotal.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I hope you never have to go thru the ordeal, it's absolutely awful.

I lost my dear Niki (neutered) to osteosarcoma in 2001. It was the worst experience I've ever had with a dog in my life. 

I noticed a slight limp, and when it didn't get better after a week of being under house arrest, I took him to the vet. Niki was diagnosed with osteosarcoma in February and I had to have him put down 4 days before Christmas, when he was 7 years 7 months old. 

The pain was so intense it could not be controlled with either Duragesic/fentanyl patches or methadone, amputation of his leg that June was the only solution to relieve the pain. 

During that 10 month period, he went from being a viral, healthy animal who could run and play ball for hours on end to having to be lifted into my van by my neighbor and me so I could take him to the vet for the final time.

I hope and pray I never hear of another dog going thru this terrible disease.

RIN TIN TIN'S NIKI
May 5, 1994 - December 21, 2001


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## GSDog (Mar 5, 2008)

"to me, an un neutered dog is the equivalent of a man that cannont have sex or masterbate for 12-14yrs." Camerafodder, I wont even comment on that one...im staying away from this...LOL takes a man to say something like that...LOL...im still laughing...

anyhow...

My pup is only 7.5months old and I wanted to get him neutered but have to wait cause he's growing too fast...but one day he will finish growing i will think about it too..right now he's 86lbs and will be hard on his joints and all..so we wait...but you know..one day studies says no its no good for this or for that then next thing you know another study comes out saying yes its the best thing for dogs...just like the studies for humans...same thing...dont take this dont take that yes use this etc etc...its like watching a tennis match...either its a dog or human, when it comes to any operation, there in no guarantee...most dogs ive seen and known in my life time that are neutered are all nice and healthy...or died of old age...I go to this dog park there is at least 20 regular dogs there and they are all neutered except for my GS...cause hes the youngest and they are all running and jumping and playing...all happy dogs...like in anything you hear, you take some and you leave some...thats my opinion...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDog"to me, an un neutered dog is the equivalent of a man that cannont have sex or masterbate for 12-14yrs." Camerafodder, I wont even comment on that one...im staying away from this...LOL takes a man to say something like that...LOL...im still laughing...


i'm a girl


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## AMM (Jul 11, 2005)

Sorry to hijack your thread, but….
My year old male has one retained testicle. We’ve been told by vets etc. that he will need to be neutered because of the risk of cancer. Does anyone actually know how big of a risk this is? Anyone know of a dog who’s retained testicle did develop cancer? 
We will never breed him, but I worry about the risks of unnecessary surgery that others have mentioned.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Look up on the internet Dr. Robert Hutchison. He is one of the best reproductive veterinarians around. I think that he said something to the effect that the same number of dogs with retained testicals as regular will develop cancer. But I am not sure. If you go on his website, you may be able to ask him the question. 

Testical cancer is a very low risk, like less than 1 percent. And it is relatively easy to remedy, once it is diagnosed you can neuter. 

I agree with not breeding the dog, but I am not sure whether I would neuter. As I have not dealt with this particular problem yet, I do not want to say something that is completely wrong. Get a second opinion from someone unlikely to be the vet doing the surgery.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I'm of the idea of not fixing what is not broken.

In my whole life I've met only one fixed male and around here male dogs are no more people aggressive nor dog aggressive nor leash-aggressive than in the rest of the world.

If you are responsible enough to keep your dog from breeding I don't see the need. If you do not want to deal with the responsibility go for it, but owning a dog is a responsibility with or without testicles.


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## chevysmom (Feb 15, 2008)

We're not sure if we are going to neuter Chevy. If we do, it wouldn't be until after he is 2 years old anyways. We've had two other male dogs (a pure bred Chow Chow and a pure bred Alaskan Malamute) in the past and neither were neutered and were just fine. They didn't roam so no pregnancies and they were not aggessive dog at all. So we'll see. I guess it's just a personal decision that everyone has to make themselves with no definate right or wrong answer.


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