# i am lost and need some help



## shenanigans (Oct 18, 2009)

alright, i recently moved into a house 3 weeks ago and had the furry monster for 4 weeks. i got her from a guy i have know for a few years who was moving and couldnt take her and i figure i need someone in the house with me since i am not married or any of that jazz so i got a 4yr old GS. she is a very very very much a people dog and as long as i am in the yard or she knows my friends or family she is very lovey and just wants to be touched, scratched, whatever she can get. people walking in the back yard (cable guy made this mistake) and im not with her and she hasnt seen you before she goes into protector mode and will raise [heck] until i come out or they back off then back to instant self again. this i do not mind as she is good at alerting me when someone is around if i do not notice. my problem is she is very very aggressive towards other dogs. when i took her to the groomers the day i got her to clean her up but i was barely able to control the dog. i hate using the "choke chain" collars or whatever you want to call them but when taking her on walks she is aggressive to the point that its hard for me to keep her under control unless i can head her off or get ahold of one of her collars with my hand.

i am 6ft 180lbs in pretty good shape and she has so far pulled me to the ground 2 times trying to get to another dog. i was told "she is large for her breed" by the previous owner, the owner was told that by the vet and several people since i have had her. when standing her head is just below my hip and i know she has to be over 80lbs so she is a pretty big and she is quite strong. every time she has gotten close to another dog i can hear her growling and all of that but i dont let it get to the point where she is going to try and start a fight.

anyway, why is she doing this towards other dogs and how can i get it to stop? she has never even came close to biting a person so far (usually playing will put my forearm in her mouth but doesnt bite) but im really really afraid she is gonna tear someones dog a new one if she got away from me for any reason. i do travel from time to time and try to take her out for walks when i can but i need to get the crazy dog to go away so i dont have any issues. any suggestions?


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## shenanigans (Oct 18, 2009)

forgot to add, guy i got her from had cats and she just ran away from them so she isnt messing with them, the aggression is other dogs only...


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

At 4 years old she has probably been doing this for a while. So the longer she has been allowed to do this the longer it will take to resolve it. Each time she aggresses, she self rewards. She barks lunges etc and other dog backs off, she gets what she wants -space between herself and other dog. 

Some dogs are just this way for no good reason, some have been attacked by other dogs, some just get a bit afraid that the leash won't let them escape something that scares them so they lunge to keep it away. 

It sounds as if she is not truly aggrssive but possibly apprehensive about meeting other dogs. Her behavior with the cats leads me to think she is trying to avoid other dogs but can't so she aggresses. The yard behavior is relativley normal for a dog with a high degree of protective instincts. It is also territorialism. 

The first thing I would do if you do not want to use a choke chain is go out and buy a Gentle Leader head harness. It gives you better control of her head so she can't pull you down. It works like a horse halter, where the head goes the body follows. 

Then I would take her for walks in areas where you are not likely to meet dogs or in areas where you can plan a calm retreat to kepe ger form encounter ather dogs too closely. You want to keep her out of her reaction zone or distance that she is going to aggress. In the meantime look for a positive reward based trainer to work with you on this and other obedience skills. 

Google Nothing in Life is Free and put this into practice in all things with her. 

Work on teaching leave it. You can google that too and follow the instructions on training it in pieces until she can ignore things under distractions. 

Then you are ready to work around other dogs at a distance. When you start walking her around other dogs stay far enough away so she is not reacting and praise her and rewrd her with some very yummy food, chicken works great! As she learns to associate other dogs with positive things and she is relaxed you can close your distance slowly. The end result hopefully will be a dog that is calm around other dogs. She may never like them but she can learn to be calm around them. This takes a long time to do it right. If you try to short circuit it you may find it backfires. You want to keep her from aggressing as it is rewarding for her too.

You might consider a group obedience class on the advice of a good trainer but I would probably work privately for awhile as the other dogs may cause her anxiety.

This is a very brief description of the steps I would take. You should really consider working this program with a trainer that can guide you and help you measure progress. 

There are several great books out there to read up on this too. If you visit http://www.dogwise.com you can see all kinds of books dealing with fear aggression and reactivity.

Good luck with her.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

She sounds like a great girl who loves people that she knows. what is her name? It would help if you knew the full history of the dog.She has not been with you that long and it takes time for a dog to settle into a new home and for their true personality to emerge.

Was she aggressive towards other dogs with her previous owner? What type of training and socialization has she had? Sometime a dog will growl and lunge from fear aggression instead of fight aggression and a good trainer, behaviorist can help you know the difference because both need to be handled differently.

Defintely get her into training with someone who uses postivier methods and understands animal behavior.

If it is difficult to control her and you fear for the safety of other dogs (and her own safety if she attacks) you should use a prong collar. 


Many on this forum know more than me and will be able to help


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Forgot to add too....

Your behavior is very important. It is very easy once the dog starts to aggress like this for you to get nervous about it happening again. When you get nervous the dogs thinks there is a real reason to "defend" or aggress. It becomes a vicious cylce of both of you feeding off the other. 

It is vitally important that you remain calm when working with her. Hold the leash loosely, tense leashes tenses the dog. Relax your body, use deep breathing, sing to yourself, act happy. Talk cheerfully to the dog. Not constant nervous chatter or calming with "its okay baby talk" just a calm prescence and word or two to indicate you see the threat and you have it handled. I use the phrase "let's go" to turn around and walk away. it is said with a slight upbeat tone of voice.

When I was working similar issues with a 95 pound male I rescued (Max) it was hard to do. But I persisted. When I saw a dog I would cheerfully say "here comes a buddy, see him?" and point to it. When Max looked at the dog I would mark it with a word "Yes!" and give him food and then turn around and walk away with his "lets go!" command. I knew his reaction distance so made sure to always work outside that distance so he could be successful at staying calm. Each time we did this the distance got a bit shorter. He was never comfortable with a dog approaching closely head on but I was eventually able to get him to pass a dog on the street with the street between them (opposite sides of the street) without a reaction. 

Today Max is over 10 years of age and I can take him anywhere and he never reacts. 

This can be done.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Along the lines Kathy is talking about -- Check out back issues of Whole Dog Journal They've had several articles that talk about counter-conditioning for dog on dog agression. One point that most people miss is that to start with you do not let the dog get to the proximity that triggers their agression -- you reward before that point and quit before it is tested. You do this over and over moving gradually closer as the proximity trigger is a shorter and shorter distance.

It takes time.

So far as pulling you over, I was able to control a powerful 100# bitch on a flat collar by using the post method & rewarding good behavior.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yea, i wouldn't use a prong in dog-dog agression issues myself, it can make things worse. i would try the method Kathy suggested using food and timing and gradual distance, etc. if you have to use anything but a flat buckle collar i would go with the GL, or halti.


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## shenanigans (Oct 18, 2009)

i will def give some of these a try, her name is sasha (along with like 10 other dogs my friends own) but i dont know much history on her. i know the guy got her from a shelter when she was one and she was with them until i picked her up a few weeks ago. she actually came around with me pretty quickly. first day or so she ran around not too sure of anything with her tail tucked down but after that its happy dog with the butt going most of the time she is awake. shes got very cuddly really quick with me so if i sit down on the floor with her for some reason i have a lap dog looking for a scratch. 

with the leash part, even the choke chain does not really stop her, it just gives me another split second to react, plant my feet or get a little jerk on her leash so she will stop. from past experiences with all sorts of dogs i can usually tell when they hit attack mode because their tail just stays strait but every time i have been around other dogs she still wags her tail like its going out of style so maybe she just gets that excited, i have no clue.

shes quite a smart little turd too, was putting some insulation under m house this weekend and she quickly learned how to open the door and came right up on me without me hearing her until she shook herself to get the rain off of her.

other than being mean towards other dogs, she listens very well, honestly almost too well and will come to me when i call her except the few times she has escaped the back yard...then i dont exist and she just goes exploring. i have a lot of friends with dogs so hopefully i can get her to relax with this crap so she can have some playmates when i have people over.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

And fix your yard so it ie escape proof or do not leave her out unattended for very long. 

It sounds as if she may actually want to meet dogs but the leash prevents her and she gets reactive?

"but every time i have been around other dogs she still wags her tail like its going out of style so maybe she just gets that excited, i have no clue."


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## shenanigans (Oct 18, 2009)

well luckily my yard had a fence but needed some repairs to make it puppy escape proof, which i failed at since the 1st day of living there she literally broke down the gate and got lose when i left to go to lowes (she wasnt happy that i left, but then again it was like a week after i got her) but luckily my stepdad was over here, noticed she wasnt running around and went out front to see she ran to my neighbors house and was over there getting a belly rub. other than that she is fine outside except she keeps dragging all these huge branches (15-20ft limbs) out of the pile in the back yard and laying them out everywhere for me. inside alone is a nono because she likes my trashcan...specially since she found a few donuts the first time.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Dogs require management just like little kids. If dog gets in trash can deny access to the trashcan. I have had to put mine in the garage to keep dogs out of it. I also never put trash in it that the dogs would find irrisistible, like meat or bones. I take it to the outside trash can which is not in the backyard. 

She is probably having a blast with the branches! My Kayos loves to haul them around too. When we trim trees and shrubs she is there to "help"







. If you don't want her to do this get rid of them and haul them off or burn them. 

It is up to you to insure the space the dog is in is safe for her and your stuff is safe from the dog. You may want to dog proof your kitchen and invest in a baby gate too. That way she is safe indoors and your things are safe from her. 

Be proactive and manger her and her environment and 99% of the problems you may be having will disappear.


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## shenanigans (Oct 18, 2009)

well she is only in the house when im there because she gets outside and goes nuts running all over the place. limbs i am working on getting rid of but there are 3 more trees to come down and i am going to have to get a wood chipper because the pile is about 12ft tall and prob 20-40 ft across plus i am not going to burn all that wet wood (too much smoke) and







off the neighbors who i have known for all of 4 weeks now...other than that she behaves, she will usually pull the largest branch she can near the back porch and have it waiting for me when i come home after she howls at me then starts running circles in the yard until she is ready to rest for a while again.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

It sounds like you have a very active young lady!! Hopefully you are playing with her and exercising and training with her to take some of her edge off. 

If she escapes to the yard from the house when you are not home you have a security issue with your doors. 

I can imagine you probably have a lot of things to do around your house as you have just been there for 4 weeks. I am sure when you have been there 6 months it will be in much better shape and will be a great home for you. You sound like a pretty hard worker.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

If she's proven she can get out of the yard DO NOT leave her out there by herself! And if she's bad in the house, invest in a crate........


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## shenanigans (Oct 18, 2009)

she got out of the yard by literally busting down the gate which was in pretty good shape, that has been taken care of and is no longer an issue thanks to a trip to lowes. she has been outside everyday by herself during the week when i am not at work. only time she is inside is at night when im at home and have had no other problems since. i think the main thing was she thought i was leaving her (2 days after her owner gave her to me, plus at the time she followed me everywhere like i was going to fart and she wouldnt be there to smell it) so im sure she was having some abandonment issues. i dont like crating dogs, just in my personal opinion even the biggest crates i have seen in stores is cramped for the dog to be in for 9-10 hrs a strait per day when i am at work. yea its great to train them but i dont want to have the dog confined all day instead of stretching out, running around etc as she pleases. plus with previous experience with my cocker spaniel who died a year and a half ago i wont crate a dog if at all possible ever again.having a 40lb black and white blur flying through the house after getting home was a bit rough. considering sasha's head is 3/4 the size of my previous dog i dont want to even experience that....


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Well..... I might suggest you read up on crates. Dogs veiw them as sanctuary. And I can guarantee your dog is not running around in the yard while you are gone, she is curled up in safe spot sleeping for much of it. She makes her own "crate". 

Not saying you need to crate her all day while you are at work but do consider the crate as a tool for you and a sanctuary for her.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

She's a little old so she might be set in her ways. I would recommend watching the dog whisperer first, try his techniques then try introducing him to other dogs. Find a friend that has a dog. Then perhaps if there's one in your area try going to a dog Park on a day that slow without many dogs. 

One of the tricks is to try to wear your dog out before introducing her to other dogs; that way he's less likely to have the energy to get into mischief.

When you get to a dog Park you might want to try to case it out on the outside first if possible. Often with newbies I recommend walk in your dog around the dog park to work out some of the energy aggression and such while the dogs are on the other side of the fence. At first you might want to keep a little bit of distance to the fence of the dog park so your dog is less likely to go into an aggressive mode; you might want to walk around until your dog becomes used to seeing the other dogs and this will hopefully make your dog realize that the other dogs are not a threat and hopefully your dog will see the other dogs playing and want to join in. I would walk your dog around the dog park on the outside on a leash until your dog become somewhat tired and becomes calm and submissive. You might want to wait and see if there is a time where there's only a few dogs in the dog park that are of a similar size as your dog. You probably ought to ask the other people for help and warn them. Often people can help recommend what times to come in and what dogs are more appropriate for introductions. Some dogs will stand their ground but remain calm and friendly and not get overly excited. If things go well it should help socialize your dog and hopefully he will be more manageable around other dogs. Usually the dog parks have a vestibule (a two-stage entrance) this allows you to enter without releasing dogs and it also lets you take your dog off leash before it meets the other dogs. It's scary and risky but I found that often it works better to take the dog off the leash before entering the common area of the dog park. Some dogs including my dog are more likely to go into an excitement mode and or an aggression mode when they are on the leash. At first before you go into the dog park after you've walked around outside and walked some of the energy off you might want to let your dog approached the fence and greet the other dogs; if your dog becomes excessively dominant or aggressive then you should use that moment to put your dog in a submissive posture (pin her to the ground with his belly up grab his neck or snout and if necessary even lay on her if he's a big dog until he becomes calm and submissive). Why you're still outside I would repeat the introduction with a few dogs while you got the fence in between and repeat the discipline if your dog becomes overly excited or aggressive until your dog gets the point that he is supposed to remain calm and submissive. Hopefully you can get some people from the dog park to help you through this process. This process is usually pretty easy with puppies. With a four year old dog that may have not been socialized with other dogs it possibly could be problematic and risky however if it's done properly odds are it will be worth the risk. Often other dog owners at the dog park will help you evaluate your dog and help introduce your dog. The first few times it can be quite scary; try not to show your fear because your dog can feed off your fear and become more intense fearful and aggressive. Sometimes dogs are more aggressive while they're on the leash because they feel trapped and fearful. Try teaching your dog to fetch/retrieve. I recommend before you go to the dog park that you try wearing her out by playing fetch or running or jogging with her.

Try being consistent. At the dog park are pretty much let my dog go up to almost any other dog or person; however outside of the dog park I have my dog trained that she is not supposed to make contact with other dogs or people unless they are introduced. However I prefer and it is difficult sometimes to stop them from being protective of their own property. So people that come onto your property its best to introduce them to your dog in a controlled fashion this reduces the odds that the dog will go into a territorial or protective mode.

If you are disabled or petite you might want to try an Ecollor (shock collar/training collar). 

Once again I really recommend watching the dog whisperer. Study your dog so you know the warning signs when your dog is about ready to become excited and/or aggressive. It's best to keep them in check when they are starting to get excited before they get excited. Once they get excited and/or aggressive it's hard and a lot more work to calm them down. If you stop the behavior before it escalates often all it takes is a minor correction.

If your dog becomes aggressive or excessively dominant to another dog then you really should immediately put your dog and a submissive position until your dog calm down. You have to be careful when intervening between dogs because sometimes you can escalate the situation and/or get bit. 

If she set in her ways it could possibly be a long difficult and perhaps impossible problem to solve. But you don't know until you try.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I am not so certain I would take her to a dog park until I knew what the basis of the aggression is. I would not want to turn my dog that has reacted strongly to other dogs loose in a dog park until I had more information and some training on the dog.

I would watch my dog and intervene before the dog started getting aggressve by moving the dog out of the way. That is pretty hard to do that if the dog is at an off leash dog park. I also would refrain from placing my dog in a submissive position. Putting dogs in submissive positions can get owners bitten. Even dominant dogs do not put other dogs in submissive positions. The submissive dogs put themselves in submissive positions. 

I like a lot of Cesar Milan says. I also think some other things he does has put dog training and behavior back 40 years.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWI am not so certain I would take her to a dog park until I knew what the basis of the aggression is. I would not want to turn my dog that has reacted strongly to other dogs loose in a dog park until I had more information and some training on the dog.
> 
> I would watch my dog and intervene before the dog started getting aggressve by moving the dog out of the way. That is pretty hard to do that if the dog is at an off leash dog park. I also would refrain from placing my dog in a submissive position. Putting dogs in submissive positions can get owners bitten. Even dominant dogs do not put other dogs in submissive positions. The submissive dogs put themselves in submissive positions.
> 
> I like a lot of Cesar Milan says. I also think some other things he does has put dog training and behavior back 40 years.


While there is no way to be certain what to do. I feel ultimately it is the owner that is responsible morally and legally and financially for what happens; so ultimately the owner should make the decision when and if to go to the dog park..

As I said before it’s best to get to know the dogs signals and try to work on the behavior and to introduce it to a friend’s dog (a dog that is less likely to be aggressive and a friend that is less likely to sue) to help evaluate and to help get your dog used to other dogs. As I said I would suggest a whole process of evaluation and building tolerance to enter a dog Park.

As far as when to intervene that takes quite a bit of skill and a little bit of luck. As I think I said before sometimes intervening can help enable the bad behavior and it can in many cases can escalate the aggression and the danger. Often moving one dog away isn’t enough. If intervention is necessary and often it takes intervention on both dogs; otherwise the dog that’s been restrained often gets attacked by the other dog; then this can cause an escalation of fear aggression in the dog that’s being restrained.

One of the most dangerous situations I have seen at a dog Park is by a high anxiety owner that refused to discipline their own dog for aggressive and dominant behavior, but instead was overprotective and intervened with other dogs and owners. It was a large and young Mastiff. The dog was not bad with the wife because the wife largely ignored the dog and let other dogs and owners intervene when necessary. The husband however would often scold other dogs and owners that approached his dog because his dog was water, food, toy ( including sticks, holes, etc…) aggressive. The husband was enabling and escalating the possessive aggression. I warned him that he should stop letting his dog be so possessive and aggressive and that he needed to intervene with his dog to prevent a problem. I also told him that his dog was feeding off of his anxiety. The owner refused to take heed of what I was saying as “I didn’t know what I was talking about”. Instead his way of intervening was to lecture other owners to keep their dogs away from his dog when he is playing with a toy, stick or near water, etc… he would often push other dogs away from his dog rather than to discipline his own dog. About a month after I advised him that he was not handling things right; his dog latched onto the throat of a husky and started to strangle it, the dog could not breathe and circulation to the dog’s brain may have been cut off. The owner of a husky pulled the two dogs apart. Just as the owner of the husky pulled the dogs apart the owner of the Mastiff got mad at the husky owner for intervening with his dog; so the Mastiff owner yanked on the arm of the husky owner letting the Mastiff free. The Mastiff taking example of its owner bit the husky owner on the hand. The bite alone may have not been enough to do much tissue damage to the husky owners hand; however the Mastiff owner kept on pulling on the Husky owners arm ripping his hand out of the Mastiff’s mouth; in doing so the Mastiff owner caused his dog to do considerable amount of tissue damage to the husky owners hand. The Mastiff was getting a drink of water when the Husky ran up; that’s when the Mastiff attacked the husky. The attack could have been avoided if the Mastiff owner took heed of what I said beforehand. I don’t think it’s acceptable to have a dog that is water, food or toy aggressive in public particularly in the dog park. If the Mastiff owner seen his dog showing signs of possessive aggression would have put his dog in a submissive position and held him there until he was calm and submissive to teach his dog not to be aggressive possessive; thusly they could’ve avoided a fairly serious situation.

I feel a dog that is overly food and toy possessive is a potential ticking time bomb. In my opinion a dog that does not submit to its owner does not belong in a dog Park. In my opinion a dog that does not submit to its owner is a high risk of threat. 

My grandfather used to be a metal shop foreman for a Michigan prison. He had many threats against his life and feared reprisals from Al Capone’s and other thugs; so as a precaution he got a trained German Shepherd guard dog. Eventually my grandfather had a heart attack or a stroke; the dog was making it difficult for the doctor to come and visit ( that shows you how long ago this was; when doctors made house calls). So when I was a kindergartner my grandfather gave us a trained guard dog. The first time I took the dog for a walk, he was so eager that he pulled me down, he dragged me about 50 yards but I wouldn’t let go. When he stopped I put him in the submissive position to let him know not to do it again and that I was dominant over him.

As far as your claim the dominant dogs don’t put other dogs in the submissive position I would disagree. If it is aggressive it is discouraged at the dog park. If it’s just play then I will tolerate it. However if it’s serious dog on dog domination in the park; it should not be tolerated because humans should serve the role as dominant. If you look at wolves in the wild; lower ranking wolves that refuse to submit on their own, will often forcibly be put into a submissive position; if the lower ranking wolf fights submission; that can be considered a challenge to rank, and often resorts in a serious fight. 

I’ve seen dogs at play that will slam each other into the submissive position as a game. It’s one of the many versions of wrestling the dogs play.

I don’t agree with everything Cesar Milan says but I don’t know anyone that is better. I probably agree with 95% of what Cesar says.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

"While there is no way to be certain what to do. I feel ultimately it is the owner that is responsible morally and legally and financially for what happens; so ultimately the owner should make the decision when and if to go to the dog park.."

You are certainly right about that. Which is why I stand behind this.


"I am not so certain I would take her to a dog park until I knew what the basis of the aggression is. I would not want to turn my dog that has reacted strongly to other dogs loose in a dog park until I had more information and some training on the dog."

Sorry I just don't take a dog with a known reactivity problem with other dogs to the dog park. That is just plain irresponsible as far as I am concerned. When I figure out a cause and a solution I might but not until I have it worked out.

And I still have never seen a dog alpha roll another one. I have seen a dog submit to another dog by rolling itself.


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