# Hitting "Center Mass"



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I am starting short-long-bites with my dog and have been very pleased that no matter where the sleeve is, he wants to go directly to the helper's center.
.....BUT.....
last weekend I saw a dog do that in the longbite and it appeared he actually started to go between the helper's legs. Good helper was able to pull the dog up and rotate around. I heard that the dog was injured previously by the same type of thing.

So, is this something to accept, or would you work to make the dog more sleeve focused? If so, how would you go about that?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think the simple solution to that problem is to make more prey attractions with the sleeve. I have seen that before and that is what we did until the dog understood where to go.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Where I use to train a Mal would not bite center. The helper would anticipate him coming in and "help" him so he didn't get injured. I commented on the fact that in a trial, the helper won't do so, and the helper said, 'yep, he'll be one that will get injured in a trial'.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

The helper that worked him last week (had never worked him before), actually said he would not want to be the one catching this dog on a courage test. 
Made me feel all warm and fuzzy until I realized the increased risk of injury.

I will talk to my helper/TD and see about adding the prey attractions..... simple, and yet my simple mind never thought of it.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Some dogs are very easily attracted to what is moving. Some helpers are not really paying attention to that fact. So, they run around in front of the dog without noticing what the dog is being attracted to. Many times, this same helper holds the sleeve very still against their body. What is moving is the whip hand and their legs. Some dogs will go for the whip while some might aim lower on the body because the legs are the biggest attraction offered by the helper. They make an adjustment when they give the bite but never adjust the training to teach this same dog where to bite. Then they start the back ups and the dog goes to wherever the attraction, ( movement), is. Sometimes, it is a nerve situation where the dog is simply distracted or disturbed by the stick movement etc.
When I work the dog as the helper, I want him watching me, not the sleeve. However, you can see, (if you are paying attention), the dog's focus shift, ( or not shift, depending on the dog), to the sleeve right before the grip. If the helper is moving the sleeve up, down or over, to get the dog in the center or lowering it to protect him/herself, then just a couple of prey attractions before the helper comes close enough for the dog to bite, is usually enough to teach them.

Other dogs who are more serious will look very hard at what the helper is doing. These kind of dogs will bite whatever is available. So, if you are not careful and decide to make , let's say, your face more of an attraction by leaning over the dog and doing what I call the "vulture stare", you might experience some damage to your nose. It is about the helper reading the dog and lots of it is very subtle. You have to always be watching the dog's eyes and expression. They tell you what the dog is thinking.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I can't see my dogs face in bitework, obviously, but I have had two helpers tell me that they feel he is going for them, not the sleeve. Leash broke one time and the helper stated he was happy he was holding the bite pillow.

When we out the sleeve, I have him in a down, and move the sleeve out for the helper to retrieve. The dog is very focused on the helper, not the sleeve. Helper has not had a whip in hand at all I don't think. (Maybe once).
When the helper gets the sleeve, I allow the dog to do a little bark and hold, and then release him forward. Helper is facing the dog and holding the sleeve out a bit. Hopefully the suggestion to move the sleeve around will help take the dog to the side, rather than going for the chest, which is where he is targeting now.

He has a lot of prey drive, and is willing to have a relationship with the helper away from the field. He is actually a big sweetheart, but on the field he is becoming a bit of a demon..... I just want to keep him as safe as possible.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I thought we were talking about the "other" dog. If your dog is going to the center, I personally prefer that. For me, it has always been easier to catch a dog who is coming to the center. However, it seems helpers are being trained to take the dogs to the right or left and kind of forcing the issue. There is a way to catch them when they come center but I can't explain that here. 
I recently worked a Doberman who was having problems staying on the sleeve. He wanted to come to the center but the helpers kept trying to force the dog to go one way or the other. They did that because he came so fast it was intimidating. The result of them doing that was the dog started flying off the bite.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Hmmmmmm....
So I really only got concerned after I saw the dog this past weekend. He was fast and powerful and from my view it appeared the hepler had a hard time getting the dog rotated. This dog hit right in the center and then swung down, between the helper's legs. If it had been my dog I probably would have had a heart attack.
Then I heard that the dog had suffered some neurological issues from a previous jam on the long bite.

.... so then I started wondering if my dog might develop that habit (he comes very fast and hard according to the helpers).
Do you think most dogs that come center like that will be OK?
I certainly don't want to create issues by trying to "fix" things, and I will definitely discuss this with my regular helper, but it is nice to hear ideas from multiple sources.

(BTW- as soon as we started ignoring the thrashing/regripping that had been an issue- it started to go away. Only time will tell for sure).

(I quit working the other dog that had targeting issues, she really did not want to do bitework).


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

If it isn't broke, don't try to fix it. I think most helpers will agree, it is easier to catch a dog when it is clear where they are headed.


----------



## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Vandal said:


> I think most helpers will agree, it is easier to catch a dog when it is clear where they are headed.


I agree 100%. That's why I teach the dogs to go one way or the other consistently. That way the dog indicates very clearly what way he is going and that makes it easier for helpers to make a safe catch. Also no matter how you slice it, dogs that come center mass are more likely to get hurt.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Thanks for all of the input, it is very much appreciated!


----------



## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

I am just curious when you guys say long how far are you talking? I do a lot of "helper" work for some of the PD's around here and long send are never taken directly for the exact reason you guys are saying, it is bad for the dog and helper in some cases. I am not sure what the SchH rules are but if you are having trouble with your dog building up too much speed to be reliably caught when he is going for center mass then the helper can simply duck behind a blind and it will burn off his speed and make a nice controlled bite. Again i am not sure if that is doable in SchH but it is just a suggestion. There are quiet a few dog i work with that i would never ever take head on. That would end badly for both myself and the dog.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

This is what we are building up to.....


----------



## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

The only dog that didnt pull up before launching is the last mal and look what happened to the helper. With long sends like that it is inevitable to be dangerous for the handler and the dog if the dog hit at full speed regardless of where the dog is aiming.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

Thanks from a newbie for posting "good stuff". Makes me want to work harder with my dog to achieve our goals.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Years ago, I worked a number of trials as the helper. Although I have never held myself up as a great trial helper, I have caught some amazingly fast and powerful dogs and never hurt one of them. How I did that was not "over thinking" the situation. When you are out there thinking about what the dog is going to do or worrying about which side to take him, there is a GREAT risk of injury to both parties. There has to be a no fear attitude in the helper or things get ugly quickly. I played sports and I did not "think" when I was catching a ball. Just watched it travel into my glove or hands. Things are easier to catch, for me anyway, when they are coming right to you. I would not try to be a trial helper on the back half nowadays. I have injuries and I am no longer young. Therefore, I have a tendency to "think" too much as the dog is coming toward me. 
This is what I am saying about helpers trying to force the issue of taking the dog right or left. Not talking about training exactly but I feel like, if the dog naturally wants to go to a place, trying to change that in the dog can create problems.
If you are the helper on a long bite and the dog is zig zagging his way up the field, things get difficult. Every trial helper I have talked to, ( and of course, I have not talked to every single one), prefers dogs that go to the center.


----------



## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

If that post was directed at me i agree 100% that a dog going for center mass is easiest i was just commenting on long sends in general.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

It was directed at the overall comments on this thread, not at anyone in particular.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I use to train with a national level trial helper and he said he could anticipate which way the dog would come in based on the set of the tail, as in a "rudder". Is there truth to that? 
One training day was focusing on that issue, as the Mal(in my previous post) was coming in in a way that he'd get jambed if the helper didn't anticipate his positioning.

As I'm not experienced at all with helperwork other than from a handler's perspective, it was interesting to watch the dogs that day as they came in.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I think what I need to do, at least for my dog, is what I always need to do after asking the opinions and thoughts of others..... and that is to go back and really look at my dog.
It seems like the helper was holding the sleeve out to the side, not middle, and then raising it. If so, maybe just a more "normal" presentation of the sleeve is the only issue.
But I will watch, and I will learn.


----------

