# Is this an Option or is it Dangerous?



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I was sitting there thinking (I know, dangerous), and something hit me. 

When someone's dog gets knocked up, and they KNOW that their dog is pregnant early on, is an emergency spay an option? Or is that dangerous? 
If it is an option, do people not do it because they don't know it's an option? Do they not want to pay for it? Do they not think of the consequences? Or does it put the dam's life in danger? 

I'm just wondering, because if it was safe to do an emergency spay very early on, you'd think more people would have their dogs spayed, rather than having the 'accident' litters if they know the dog is preggers.


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## RogueRed26 (Jul 15, 2010)

We are all flawed. I personally think accidents can happen. Even if you plan to fix your dog, sometimes nature can take it course against your plan. I am not saying it happens all the time, but there are occasions and situations.

I have heard of certain veterinarians who will terminate a pregnancy for an extra fee (I tell you, there are many money hungry people out there) and spay the female at the same time. In my personal opinion, I think it is morally wrong and dangerous to do that to your female dog. If maybe she was accidentally impregnated by a very large dog that could result in water babies, maybe. But honestly, in all respects, I think its a highly moral question: whether or not you want to put your dog's life or even the lives of other unborn puppies in jeopardy.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

You can do a spay/abort procedure. "Why" people don't do it I cannot say. Perhaps they do not want to spay the bitch or they would have had her spayed before she got pregnant. The term "knocked up" is offensive, btw.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I think I worded my question in a confusing way. If someone's bitch breeds with a random male, and the bitch's owner knows this, but doesn't intend on having puppies from her, why wouldn't that person get her spayed immediately, especially if that person already had intentions on spaying her? Unless the procedure was dangerous to the dam. Basically, spay her before the puppies develop. And I know a lot of people don't know that their dog is pregnant, but some do. 

If it were my dog (I might sound like a horrible person for saying this) but I wouldn't care about the puppies, I would care about MY dog. And I suppose it could be looking out for the puppies by taking them out of the world before ever bringing them into it, because who's to say that those puppies wouldn't grow into dogs that would be starving on the streets or go to abusive homes? 

MiddleOfNowhere, I apologize for offending you. It's too late for me to go back and edit that post now, though. :/


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

RogueRed26 said:


> I have heard of certain veterinarians who will terminate a pregnancy for an extra fee (I tell you, there are many money hungry people out there) and spay the female at the same time.


The reasoning behind the extra fee is . . . . a "pregnant" spay will need more instruments (hemostats) that cost money to be sterilized, extra suture material (costs the clinic about $20.00) and it takes the doctor more time to perform the operation, additionally a surgical tech must be paid to stand there and assist. So it actually costs the clinic more to perform such a spay.

There is added risk, that vary depending on how far along the bitch is.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Spay isn't necessary to abort the pregnancy, if you get the dog to the vet within the first 24 hours or so.

They can give the dog a shot of hormones that prevents the pregnancy from being viable.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

My take on it? The owners may not have had any plans to breed their dog, but now they are secretly delighted and excited that they will have puppies! Or they are in denial about the whole thing, why pay for a vet visit, for a shot or for the spay procedure, when maybe, there is a chance, because who knows, let's keep our fingers crossed, she is NOT pregnant. Could be. 

An emergency spay may be a bit more risky than a regular spay, I don't know, but allowing the pregnancy to go through also has its fair share of risks.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

I have to agree with you, Castlemaid.
If your dog has been knocked up, chances are, you weren't overly concerned with it in the first place. 

I liken it to "accidental discharges" of firearms.
There's no such thing as an accidental discharge. It's a negligent discharge.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I just met someone who visited my training group. Her 13 month old male sired two litters while she was out of town. Her dog sitter let him out with one of her females(not knowing she was in heat, then did it again with her other female/who sitter knew was in heat!) I was just shaking my head when she was telling the story....now she has two litters on the ground(a week old) and the male hasn't had any health testing(supposedly the females are nervy, so shouldn't be bred anyway. One is a showline/working line mix and the other a WL. The male is DDR.
Not sure why on earth she didn't get the shot, I think it is exactly as Lucia wrote, secretly happy...and probably didn't have the funds to spay two if that was an option.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

If she was out of town, she likely didn't have the option of the shot. It generally needs to be done within 24 hours of the tie, as I understand it.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

If the bitch was not spayed at the appropriate time to prevent puppies, chances are the owner doesnt have the funds to get her spayed in the first place. Or they were hoping she would just get pregnant because they have an intact female dog and they can. That would be the random person.

You also have the accidental breeding that occurs with purebreds, at breeders homes. If the bitch was purchased or retained for breeding in the first place, you would not want to spay her.

Spaying can be done at any stage of the pregnancy. The later in the pregnancy the more costly, especially if you have to euthanize each individual pup, because now they are viable. And it does take a lot of extra time on the surgery table, extra supplies, extra people assisting. There is a drug out there that can be given to prevent implantation of the eggs into the uterine wall. Implantation doesnt occur until around days 17-18 of pregnancy.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

I wouldn't say all that.
My bitch is, and shall remain [barring pyometra] intact for the duration of her life.

I have zero plans of ever breeding her. One, she was purchased on a limited registration, so unless I wish to violate the contract I signed, I *cannot* breed her.

Two, she was not purchased to breed. She is a companion and a working partner, not a brood bitch.

My reasons for leaving her intact were solely based on heath and temperament considerations, and my ability to prevent unwanted breedings from occurring, thus rending spaying a non-necessity.

I believe we're referring to the same drug, although I was under the likely mistaken impression that there was a smaller window of time for administering it.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I have heard that the pregnancy prevention/abort shot is tough on the bitch. Therefore less than desirable. To add to the spay/abort discussion, spaying during heat is dicy because of the increased blood flow around the reproductive organs.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

If you *did* opt to spay during pregnancy, I'd go with a vet who is associated with a Trap/Neuter/Release program. They typically have extensive spay experience [thousands], many of them on pregnant animals.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Is the shot similar to the 'day after pill' for people? It sounds like it. If it is, then isn't the pill hard on a person? But what's harder, the shot or the pregnancy and raising the pups and the possible problems that can arise with having the pups?


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

I'd wager in the long run, the cautions about the shot center largely on not wanting people to consider it a replacement for exercising good pet ownership, and not allowing their dog to be accidentally bred in the first place.

I can't imagine that the shot is tremendously harder on the dog than either a spay [and the long term effects of hormonal deprivation that result], or the pregnancy, nursing and weaning of pups.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

In the case of a breeding bitch tieing with a male unplanned would the shot have any impact on her ability to produce future litters? 

Selzer had made a post a while back about spaying pregnant bitches and the best time to do it. I will see if I can find it.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think your average person with an oops litter probably did not have the money to spay their dog in the first place, and therefore is not going to have the extra money to pay for a more expensive spay after fertilization. I highly doubt most are worried about the females health or the potential puppies. If it were me I would have it done in a heartbeat to prevent an unwanted litter, but some have a moral objection to this as well. It's a matter of opinion and available funds to cover the surgery in the end- the risks are not increased by much early into gestation


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Too late to edit my post. Here's the thread I mentioned http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...y-german-laydi-might-pregnant-ten-months.html


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

SchDDR said:


> If she was out of town, she likely didn't have the option of the shot. It generally needs to be done within 24 hours of the tie, as I understand it.


 She was only gone for the day, at a club trial. Actually her and her friend were bragging about the potency of the male! She knew it happened when she returned home, but probably hoped the ties weren't successful.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Definitely an option and done without people knowing about it I am sure - in the cases of shelters that spay before dogs are adopted or go to rescue. 

The not enough money to speuter is hard to swallow given that there are clinics, vouchers, payment plans, Care Credit, etc. And hard to swallow given the cost of vetting puppies, vetting in general. 

So when this happens, I always suggest the spay termination first, and then fostering and placing through a rescue second. That shows was the person really in it for the dog, or the flat screen tv, etc.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the bitch is a purebred and the owner wants to show the bitch or breed the bitch, a spay/abort is not an option.

When I had Arwen (my first bitch), I like many others was afraid that if Frodo looked at her cross eyed, she would get pregnant, so I asked the vet what my options were if this were to happen. She told me (knowing I bought her for breeding), that for her reproductive health, even as an eight month old pup, it would be better to let her carry through with the pregnancy as sheps are long and skinny and they will generally pass the puppies ok. 

(Arwen was four before she was bred, and she was NOT bred accidently, nor to Frodo.)

I like the poster that said there are no oops litters, only negligent litters, or was that gun discharges -- same thing. 

If people truly WANT a litter, they are not going to spay/abort. 

If people do not know how much of a pain a litter can be, they will not spay/abort.

If people believe that human life and canine life, are equally weighted, and begin at conception, they will not spay/abort.

If people do not care about the bitch, they will not spay/abort, they will drop her at a shelter, shoot her, or dump her, before or after she has the puppies. 

The first two groups of people may do likewise once they learn more or experience the joy of whelping and raising a litter.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> She was only gone for the day, at a club trial. Actually her and her friend were bragging about the potency of the male! She knew it happened when she returned home, but probably hoped the ties weren't successful.


In that case, I can only shake my head.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

Zoeys mom said:


> I think your average person with an oops litter probably did not have the money to spay their dog in the first place, and therefore is not going to have the extra money to pay for a more expensive spay after fertilization.


And I'm that jerk who says, if you can't afford to pay $50 for a low-cost spay/neuter procedure, you shouldn't own an animal. Period.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And I am that jerk that says, my bitch/dog could die in a low cost spay/neuter, if they do not do blood work and ensure the dog does not have a clotting disorder. People can keep a dog intact without breeding them. It IS possible folks.


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## SchDDR (Dec 29, 2010)

selzer said:


> And I am that jerk that says, my bitch/dog could die in a low cost spay/neuter, if they do not do blood work and ensure the dog does not have a clotting disorder. People can keep a dog intact without breeding them. It IS possible folks.


Oh, you won't get any argument from me on THAT front.
My bitch is unaltered, and shall remain so, despite the fact that she will never be bred.

There's a world of difference between "I've done the research, and I choose not to alter my animal due to the health risks, when I'm a responsible pet owner who can easily prevent unwanted breeding" and "I'm too cheap to afford what amounts to a routine expense for a living creature I've accepted responsibility for."


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Castlemaid said:


> My take on it? The owners may not have had any plans to breed their dog, but now they are secretly delighted and excited that they will have puppies!


I think a lot of the time it's exactly that. Sometimes people pretend it's an "oops" litter when in reality they were casual about taking precautions because they didn't exactly plan NOT to breed her either, and this gives them some deniability about the whole situation.

Other people insist on applying human morality to animals - they're against abortion, so they won't do a spay/termination on their pet either.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I find it interesting that people are arguing about folks not doing it because of the cost and risks to the female. Like raising 10 puppies to 8 weeks isn't costly? And it's not risky for a novice to try and welp their female? If they don't want to put $$ into a spay to terminate the pregnancy, then what will they do when she suddenly needs an emergency c-section? Having a litter of puppies can and does certainly go well for the novice who has done no real advance planning. But the risks to continue the pregancy all the way to the end can have a million things go wrong.

It's all a bunch of baloney and I agree there are no true "ooops" litters.

As for the moral argument. Well, I personally think it's morally wrong to put your girl at risk and possibly kill puppies during welping because or ignorance and not knowing what you are doing. I also think it's morally wrong to contribute to the shelter epidemic in this country. Dogs aren't humans. They never get to the point that they can care for themselves. They rely on humans from birth to death to provide care for them (with the exception of feral dogs, but I'm SURE no one wants their puppies to end up with that life). And most importantly, your female didn't have a choice and use cognitive reasoning to decide to have sex and deal with the potential outcome of being pregnant.

I am not at all passionate about the pro-choice vs. pro-life issue. It's a touchy subject and I respect both sides. I do, however, think it's ridiculous to put moral codes of human choices onto animals with no real "free will."

And this has nothing to do with breeder bashing. I'm all for breedings that are carefully planned out with knowledgable people, a game plan, and dogs who have been tested for physical and mental health.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> I find it interesting that people are arguing about folks not doing it because of the cost and risks to the female. Like raising 10 puppies to 8 weeks isn't costly? And it's not risky for a novice to try and welp their female? If they don't want to put $$ into a spay to terminate the pregnancy, then what will they do when she suddenly needs an emergency c-section? Having a litter of puppies can and does certainly go well for the novice who has done no real advance planning. But the risks to continue the pregancy all the way to the end can have a million things go wrong.
> 
> It's all a bunch of baloney and I agree there are no true "ooops" litters.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup:


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

*oops litters*

I had a cairn terrier decades ago who tied with a neighbor's mutt...chose to go the quick spay/abort route. The neighbors were upset with our decision, but then they wouldn't be raising the litter, so I didn't much care they felt cheated out of seeing their mutt's progeny flourish. Not caring much for the temperament of either dog, I had no desire to see it.

People do what they do, and rationalize it to fit their needs. We aren't going to change that ranting here. I too shook my head upon hearing the story about the "breeder" who left town with 2 litters on the ground, let alone with
a female in heat.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Justine, well said! My feelings exactly! Dan's story is a perfect example of why so many people allow oops litters to happen. Neighbor's had a MUTT! and they wanted puppies from the oops litter! Don't you think that at some level they were hoping that their dog would find a female and provide them with muttley pups? Not bashing mutts here, I have a real soft spot for mixed breeds - buy ya know - both my previous and present mutts came from shelters - does that tell you something?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

selzer said:


> And I am that jerk that says, my bitch/dog could die in a low cost spay/neuter, if they do not do blood work and ensure the dog does not have a clotting disorder. People can keep a dog intact without breeding them. It IS possible folks.


 
Well said!:thumbup:


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> People can keep a dog intact without breeding them. It IS possible folks.


Of course! But we're talking about Joe Public here . . . asking them to be responsible and supervise their pets may be asking for too much.


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## southforsunshine (Mar 8, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> The term "knocked up" is offensive, btw.


How come? (not being a smartass) Is there a racial undertone, or something along those lines? I've just never heard anyone else say that.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

My parents did this once. They had been planning to spay their Catahoula before her first heat, but she came in at 5 or 6 months old and bred with the neighbor's lab. Since they didn't intend to breed her and were planning to spay her anyway, they just did the spay abort.


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