# trainer to let dog bite?



## kimi (Jul 29, 2010)

I have a friend who has a 1 year old female GSD. She is a bit aggressive, and has lots of issues.. He went to a new trainer, and the trainer said that what they want to do, is to let him bring his dog to class this weekend, and will "allow" his dog to bite one of the trainers. The purpose of this is to show the dog that nothing happens when she bites someone. And is supposed to teach her that biting will get no reaction. 
I am not very experienced in this kind of aggression class-however it seems to me that it will only teach the dog its ok to bite. Anyone ever heard of this? any thoughts on this???


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

Never heard of that! I will be interested to see peoples comments.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

It makes sense in a way. Ever read _Black Beauty?_


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## kimi (Jul 29, 2010)

No, I have never read Black Beauty... But, am curious as to what people will say on here. I just don't think its a good idea, but its not my dog.


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## kimi (Jul 29, 2010)

anyone??????


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## cshepherd9 (Feb 11, 2010)

kimi said:


> will "allow" his dog to bite one of the trainers. The purpose of this is to show the dog that nothing happens when she bites someone. And is supposed to teach her that biting *will get no reaction*.


I have never heard of this, but if a dog bit me, even if I knew it was going to happen, I am pretty sure I would react. I don't know the whole story here, maybe they are wearing a bite suit/sleeve or something? If this is the case then I am still not seeing the purpose because the dog could be reacting/biting because the person looks "weird" and wouldn't be able to distinguish between the person in the bite suit and a normal person walking down the street.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Interesting question. Does a dog bite to find a reaction from the bite-ee - or is a bite a reaction from the biter? Would the bite itself be a reward for the aggression behind the bite? 

I would think the bite itself would be a release of the frustration and not the reaction of the person/thing being bitten.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I hesitate to answer this. My background and my experience withn GSD's makes me wonder why you would let a dog bite as part of training.. I realize that people do Schutzhund and there is bite work but its done on command is it not? Daisy loves firworks ,no fear of gunfire and has strong protective instincts but I would never have used having her bite someone to teach her not to but Im not a trainer. Daisy was once called to stop someone going through our gate at twilight she did it instinctively and held them off ,no training to do that and she did not bite just held then at the gate with growling and some lunging. Her issues with developing when it's ok to bite were never my focus. Now the part that many may disagree with but if an aggressive dog bites a human there is a reaction pain yelling and perhaps a lawsuit.Im not sure if even GSD's have the abstract concept of there nothing to be gained by biting.Im new and thus may be mistaken but Ive watched all kinds of trainers work and have worked with trainers in a prison dog program I've never seen the technique you asked about.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I would think letting the dog bite would teach him/her that it is acceptable, specially if there is no "reaction" from the bitee. I could be stuck on puppy bite inhabition, but I would believe the dog has to be taught bitting is *NOT* acceptable in this case.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

First- I am not condoning this trainer as I do not know the people or dog involved.

But, consider that a dog may bite out of fear and/or to drive away the threat. 
If the dog bites and nothing comes from it, the "threat" stays there, no reaction, just ignoring; then perhaps the dog sees that biting gets them nothing.

I am assuming the bitee would be wearing a hidden sleeve or suit.


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

I guess that might work.
We were told when Miss Molly was a tiny pup to let her go ahead and bite but to say ow a lot. As opposed to stopping her from biting at all.
This taught her to have a real soft mouth and so now (6 months) she doesn't bite.
If she takes your hand or whatever in her mouth it's more like a bird dog might.

Not sure about an older dog but it would be the same idea I suppose.


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## kimi (Jul 29, 2010)

This is in no way related to Schutzund. It will be the first class the dogs has in "aggression class". I am not sure if there is a sleeve involved-I would hope so, but I don't know. Its a friend out ours who lives in MO. 
I kind of get what they are saying as far as the no reaction-but I still think its an invitation to say its ok. What if a kid were around and the dog thought it was a threat and just bit. It didn't get a reaction last time and thinks it ok? I don't know. But, still, looking for other's reactions to this weird way of training to me...


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

_Simple version of starting a dog in protection work, with some dogs....._

When you do protection work, if the "helper" (the person the dog bites) does not show a reaction, the dog will quit biting, or try another tactic. 

To get the dog to keep biting, the "helper" acts like the dog just really hurt him and now he (the helper) is terrified of the big bad protection dog.
Having a helper who is a great actor is important, and makes for a stronger biting dog.

So the OP's scenario listed above, would be the opposite. Bite=Zero. 

(The helper is obviously wearing protective gear)


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

If you watch or have attended any Michael Ellis seminars on training puppies, he specifically speaks about mouthing/biting puppies and the techniques used to counter act it. 

He gives several technniques to use, but one in particular he mentions, is what the OP is referring to. He specifically referrs to it though, when you are dealing with a more dominant, higher drive puppy. Nonetheless, he states that if you were walking down the street and somebody picked a fight with you and they ended up punching you in the face and all you did was laugh at them, as opposed to crying or running away, that person would obviously think that punching you did nothing to hurt you and they would stop. 

In other words, if you have a puppy in drive and it trys to bite you out of reactivity or to gain an upper hand or is challenging pack structure, this shows them that you are not phased by this and they will use less of this behavior towards you until it eventually extinguishes itself. 

That said though, I'm not sure that this technique would work on a 1 year old dog that has all of it's adult teeth and has fully developed jaw muscles! The point that Michael Ellis makes is that we use this technique with puppies because a bite from a puppy does far less damage than a bite from an adult dog, and if you are going to deter the behavior, it needs to start EARLY. 

In my opinion, this probably won't work, but I'm not sure we have all of the details here...such as, will there be a bite suit or sleeve used, what is the bite history of the dog, what is the fearful biting specifically a reaction to...etc., etc.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Personally, I think it's one of the stupidest things I've heard in many years. A dog as described is aggressive because of a fear issue. You don't cure a fear issue by creating conflict by watching another dog bite. 

DFrost


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I met an American Hairless Terrier a few weekends ago with serious fear aggression issues. I sat on the ground by his owners (who were making it worse – a whole ‘nother story) and tried to engage him with a bit of bunny fur (we were on a break during our lure coursing). He was interested but wasn’t comfortable enough to leave his owners.

They mentioned that they were trying to show him in breed but he had been excused once for growling at the judge (owner handled). I asked if I could take him and walk him around and see how he reacted. They said yes.

I took hold of the leash and he tried to pull away. When I reached down to pick him up he snapped at me.

The owners started to freak out and I told them to ignore it. I hadn’t moved my hand when he snapped – just left it were it was (hovering next to him) and said to him (more for the owners benefit) – “I live with German Shepherds and they have MUCH bigger teeth than you! Heck, I’ve had mosquito bite that hurt more!”

The owners seemed to settle back a bit. The dog just kept snapping at my hand and I just kept it where it was. He gave up after a minute or two so I put my hand on his side. He gave me a real bite that time (still didn’t even draw blood) and I just looked at him and said “Are you DONE yet?”.

Within another minute I was picking him up and carrying him away from his owners. After we were far enough away so that he could not see them I set him down and started walking him around other people. He displayed NONE of the reactions that I saw when I first approached him (when he was with his owners). He wasn’t Mr. Happy Dog but wasn’t actively growling, barking or snapping.

After a few minutes of visiting I reached down to pick him up again and he made only a couple half-hearted attempts to snap at me. I was able to pick him up much easier and quicker than the first time.

When a dog is afraid, they growl, bark, snap or bite – to make what they fear go away. If it works it is self-rewarding. If it doesn’t work AND nothing bad happens to them when what they fear is right there with them – they have learned two things. One – defensive methods don’t always work and Two – I really didn’t have to be afraid of that thing.

Done correctly, by an experienced person and in a very controlled environment I believe this can be a good method to work with fear aggressive dogs.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

DFrost said:


> You don't cure a fear issue by creating conflict by watching another dog bite.
> 
> DFrost


I'm not sure where you got the "another dog" part? The dog in question is the one that will be doing the biting.

Am I reading your reply wrong??


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## Bundash (Dec 5, 2010)

As pups, I agree with Michael Ellis and his training, as to ignoring or not making a big deal out of getting nipped/bitten. I found his seminars to be effective and have used them ourselves with great results. The dog in question is a year old, which is still a bit young physically and psychologically in my opinion.

Also if your in a dominance struggle, backing away from a bite, lets the dog "win", which empowers him or her even further. Don't have enough details on this girl, to really know about what the "issues" are and if it really is "aggression".


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## kimi (Jul 29, 2010)

Again, I don't know if there will be a sleeve used or not. I would hope so. The dog in question has not biten anyone as of yet. However, I have known her all her life, and when I went to pet her when she was around 8 months old, she lunged and tried to bite me aggressively. I yelped in fear, and flew backwards. She meant business. And she knows me. The trainer told our friend, Danny, that she would hold the dog with the leash and see what happens. This particular dog is fearful of everything. She is afraid of cars driving by, she is afraid of everything. Part of her history was that the owner was living with a woman-who he found out after a couple of months, was abusing his GSD while he was at work. Wouldn't let her out, kept in her crate for 10-12 hours at a time while he worked. Kicked the dog, hit the dog, and didn't feed her. Needless to say, lady is no longer around and he took his GSD out of her life period. But, GSD now suffers huge huge issues from all that. 
He did have a trainer coming to his home to help him one on one, but she felt she couldn't continue to help them after 4 sessions. So, he is seeking other help. He is also a first time dog owner, and just continues to try what he is told to do. I feel sorry for him....


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> IWhen a dog is afraid, they growl, bark, snap or bite – to make what they fear go away. If it works it is self-rewarding. If it doesn’t work AND nothing bad happens to them when what they fear is right there with them – they have learned two things. One – defensive methods don’t always work and Two – I really didn’t have to be afraid of that thing.
> 
> Done correctly, by an experienced person and in a very controlled environment I believe this can be a good method to work with fear aggressive dogs.


This is my thought.... just not sure of the dog, owner, trainer involved and what they actually plan.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think you better know exactly what kind of dog your working with doing this method, and it sounds like a take off on the CAT methods.........and i have seen this method backfire, can actually give them a reheasal effect to reacting etc......plus this method takes a LONG LONG time lots of encounters...........i did it with my dog with fear issues with strangers in a controlled training inviroment, and it made him worse........not saying it can't work for some, but not my dog...sometimes it can have the opposite effect so i'd be real careful........i also think that if a dog is fearful no matter how much training, de-sensatizing they have had, in the right situation left to rect accordingly without guidence they will almost always fall back on instinctual actions.............that why the CAT method isn't one of my favorites.......


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Interesting but not sure I buy that it will work. When a dog has a problem of jumping on people they tell you to completely ignore the dog. The dog will jump more and do more trying to get a reaction from you. This is not solved in one day.

I don't think a dog pushed to the point of biting out of fear is going to stop the behavior. I think it will make it worse. Maybe it depends on the dog.. I don't know.

I would try other methods first.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i really don't think rehearsal bitting is a great idea, even if its set up in a controlled atmosphere..........i know the logic behind it, but i think its a huge gamble and really could make things worse....i am up for alot of different training tecniques but baiting a fearful weaker nerved dog to bite is something i wouldn't want to chance........

i would rather correct a dog from bitting teaching them it is NOT appropriate behavior.......


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I hope your friend and his dog get the help they need and he is doing the right thing to try to help his dog. I personally want to find the ex and have a talk.I get the logic of what is being done I have just never heard of any technique like it with fearful dogs. Tell your friend to hang in there.


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## kimi (Jul 29, 2010)

Thank you. I just talked to him and he is soooo frustrated. His dog is such a handful. She seem's to have so much energy too. He walks her for almost 2 miles, then he bike rides while she runs. And instead of laying down, she wants to play more. He said he is so tired, and can't believe she isn't. She is like a child on sugar high. Just constantly going. Barking at every little noise, every little movement. Someday's he is ready to cry with frustation. But, like I told him, baby steps. One day at a time is all you can do...


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Sounds like there needs to be some strong leadership and guidence there.........the dog should be able to laid down or chill out after that exercise.........and your friend should inforce rest periods..if she is antsie, have him give her a kong filled with something or a chew..........i think he should really focus on Obedience training and focus work.........and find a new trainer/ training method..........


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Kimi, that is a lot of exercise, but all physical. What does he do to tire out her brain? I know with Singe, he can go and go and go. Rest a while and then go again. 
But if I get his brain to work (even just throwing/hiding his ball so that he has to track it down) it tires him out twice as fast with the added bonus of keeping him more mellow the rest of the day.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> I'm not sure where you got the "another dog" part? The dog in question is the one that will be doing the biting.
> 
> Am I reading your reply wrong??


You didn't read my reply wrong, I misunderstood the OP's first post. I still think its' the wrong technique for a dog that is reacting out of fear. 

DFrost


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## kimi (Jul 29, 2010)

I have been trying to talk him into the NILIF program with his dog, but he is having trouble. His dog, Ellie has the run of the house. After talking to him every night for the last week, she is the boss. He does what she wants, no matter what. If he doesn't take her ball and throw it, she sits there and barks at him, steals his slippers, and starts to destroy things in the house. I told him, put her in a time out. So I have been trying to tell him what I have learned at our new training place(which is based on all positive, which I love). Esp the NILIF. 
But, what I think got him was that I came home last night from our 2nd agility class, and the trainers were so surprised at the difference in my dog, and couldn't believe how much he had changed in the last week, and the hard work on my part really made a difference for my dog. So, when I was talking to my friend, he sounded like now he believes me. 
Does he do things to stimulate her mentally? Not really. 
He has just moved to MO about 2 months ago, and is really having a hard time finding OB training that is positive. And the trainer that he had coming to his house told him after 4 sessions that she felt she couldn't help anymore, he needed to get someone else.. 
He goes to this training/aggression on Sunday night. I will keep you posted as to what happens. I am very nervous. Esp cuz he has never had a dog before, and believe me when I tell you-GSD is not for him..


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I've never heard of this with dogs but this is what they tell you to do with Sugar Gliders, let them bite you and don't react or pull away so they don't learn that biting gets you to go away, and learn it will not 'work'. I haven't done it with mine because I always end up pulling away reflexively if I think they're going to bite because I know it will hurt.
I have done this with my cats, as kittens if they bit me (not a hard bite, does not break the skin) I just held still so they would learn it won't get a reaction from me, and it seemed to help them to learn not to bite. Of course this was not really an *aggression* bite in these situations, in the sugar gliders it is defensive and in the cats a combination (could be play-bite, or them saying "I don't like what you are doing", etc...) So that is a different situation from an aggressive dog.


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