# Pedigree / General Questions



## loveruby25 (Oct 21, 2013)

Hello,

I am new here, and am currently in the process of trying to find a GSD for my home! I am married and have two small children, and although we have not owned a GSD, I have some experience in the past with them as my family had one when I was young.

Anyway, I have come across a GSD puppy which I am interested in and I hope some of the experts can help me with some questions mainly related to pedigree and things.

First, mom is a German import at 70lbs, sable who is trained in personal protection. Sire is listed as Belgium/West German Red and Black at 100 pounds. So my question is, "what importance is the country of origin for the dogs parents?"

Second, the breeder gave me two prices. One price was for I guess just the minimal AKC reg. and the other was for full AKC which she told me would only be important if I wanted to breed him. I am not really planning on breeding the dog, but still I am not sure of what all of this means?

The breeder told me the puppy is "plush coat sable" or "double coat". Is there anything I need to know about this aside from it being cosmetic?

When I expressed interest, she promptly sent me mom and dad's pedigree information from pedigreedatabase. Now, I am not skilled in understanding these and Im not sure if its OK to post since they are not my dogs. I did notice mom's great grandfather was listed as "2XWUSV, 2XBSP, SCHH3, IP3, FH" and 1998 WUSV Champion. Additionally Dad's great grandfather is "SG1999 WUSV SIEGER Tom van't Leefdaalhof " who was 1999 WUSV Champion and actually has some cool youtube videos. Aside from that, I am not sure what I should be looking for...any red flags or important items.


Thanks for your help. I certainly could ask the breeder these questions...but I felt it important to also get opinions from outside parties!


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Do the parents have any titles? Or just the great-grandparents? Some breeders will tout that great grandparents, etc were champions (riding the coattails of others who titled their dogs) but it doesn't necessarily mean much about the dog you'd be getting, as so much that goes into the equation is how the bloodlines mix, etc. 

The biggest, absolute most important thing to look for is OFA hips and elbow scores, and ask the breeder if they were screened for DM. 

The country of origin isn't necessarily important. Depending on what you want the dog for, the lineage may be.

If you post the pedigree (which is absolutely fine), there are some seriously experienced people on here who can give you an idea of what you're getting temperament and drive-wise.


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## loveruby25 (Oct 21, 2013)

Ok thanks, here are the pedigrees

Dad: Toniolo's Topper

Mom: Bruna vom Cap Arkona

Thanks


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Welcome!

This puppy sounds like a mix of a few different lines, which would make me question the breeders motives behind the litter. My first question would be to find out (and get proof of) the sire/dam of this puppy having any health cert. (especially hip/elbow xrays rated by either OFA, SV or Pennhip) or working/show titles. Do you have any pictures or is there a website with more information?

What are you looking for in your next puppy? Just a family pet/companion or do you wish to become involved in show or sport? If you give your location, some members on the forum may be able to verify reputable breeders in your area for you.


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## loveruby25 (Oct 21, 2013)

Thanks for the assistance. Basically, I am looking for a pet/companion but would not totally rule out the idea of getting involved in more advanced types of training whether it be protection, etc. We do not plan on breeding the dog though and so the fact that the dog is a little more affordable because of being able to use limited AKC is attractive to me having two kids, expenses, etc. I live in Central PA, Harrisburg area.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

For me personally, I see a couple red flags. Just based on PDB which isn't always 100% accurate.


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## loveruby25 (Oct 21, 2013)

Ok, would you mind elaborating on those potential red flags? You can send a private message if you want as well.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't see hip or elbow xrays posted for either dog and there's no titles (either show or working) for either dog. Both red flags for me if I were purchasing a puppy. Obviously its the internet, so it could be just lack of real info, but I would definitely verify for sure that xrays were done.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Lack of heath checks and titles for a couple generations. To me that says someone is trying to ride coat tales of the breeders who actually put the work into their dogs. So it's just not a litter *I* would look at. Others may disagree. Again this is just based off the information on PDB so I could be wrong.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A quick scan of the pedigree, the mother's lines look better as at least the parents are titled. Doesn't look like the sire's pedigree has titles in it until you get to his grandparents. Which means that the sire's parents weren't bred with much thought and were probably bred because of the fact that there are some successful dogs behind them. I'm not sure if the sire is what they say he is...his name is very American and not following the German system of naming dogs.

Neither parent is titled or health certified, for you, the health certification should be more important as it will give you more of a chance for a healthy dog. It does look like they're just throwing random dogs together without much thought of what they're producing. Pretty dog + pretty dog = pretty puppies. On top of that, the fact that they'll just let you purchase the full registration only based on the fact that you "might want to breed" isn't right. Most breeders will sell limited registration, and then they'll "grant" you full registration after you have proven the dog is breedworthy...so you've done the health checks and hopefully titled the dog in something.

For the breeder to want more money just because they realize that you'll have the opportunity to later make some money off of the dog isn't right. The truth is...it doesn't make any more work for the breeder or the AKC. It's just a way to protect lines and protect the breed if the breeder cares to do so.


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## loveruby25 (Oct 21, 2013)

Well, she did explain that I could always get full registration down the road if I want. I was a little taken back though that the price difference between full and limited is quite large.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

loveruby25 said:


> Well, she did explain that I could always get full registration down the road if I want. I was a little taken back though that the price difference between full and limited is quite large.


It's a weird tactic and sadly it probably produces more BYB dogs than it helps prevent. Someone spends more on their dog and decides to try and recoup their investment. BTW...the truth is that its quite hard to find a match for your dog. If you even care a little about doing it the right way, you'll really start to think twice about what kind of female or male you'll breed your dog to. Chances are, you'll want something that's titled/health certified/has a great pedigree, and on the flip side, they won't give your dog a second look. If the price difference is that much...its just not worth it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would question the validity of the mother's pedigree. Cap Arkona kennel has never produced a female of that name and their last B litter was born in 2012. They may have the name incorrect, but then the pedigree would still be incorrect for both B litter breedings they have done. Cap Akona did use Timmy a couple of times. The kennel name could have been used by a breeder in the states. Unfortunately that happens. There is no record of the mother having hips/elbows certified by OFA. 

The sire has no hip/elbow rating with OFA or the SV, but could have an FCI rating. 

Of course this is all based on what is presented on the PDB which is only as correct as the person inputting the information.


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## weberhaus (Jan 2, 2008)

The sire is a mix of West/Belgium lines and Czech working lines. 
As far as the mother goes i guess if the pedigree was right she would be a older dog now that what she looks like in the picture. Also as said above i would say that there is a lot to question as far as the dogs health and pedigree goes. I would not buy unless you can see this to all be in order for your own eyes. If the price from limited to full is that large then maybe there are other things that are a miss. I think it best you ask for proof of hips/ elbows and DM test before you go forward. With out knowing your budget and what they are asking for puppies sometimes what you have to spend is not far from what a reputable breeder is asking for their puppies a with a little more time you could find a breeder who would have all this in order for you as well as titled parents with good hips and elbow scores. 
Maybe also do a search for the breeders name and see what comes up about them.
if their is a website maybe that would help. 
Best wishs
Malinda


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## weberhaus (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh I just found the mother and her pedigree is incorrect on the database
Here is a link to the female you posted as the dam http://www.zumaltenhofkennels.com/bruna.htm 
If this is not the owner of the female who is breeding her maybe contact this person as ask why they sold her ??


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

You have two small children and haven't had a GSD of your own, right?

All that's ok, I raised my kids with GSDs, but way back when, I got lucky.

Having had one or two of these fantastic dogs in my home for many, many years, I'd give you the following advice... advice is free.

Look for a reputable breeder, check references, talk to people who have pups from previous litters.

This is a breed with a myriad of health issues and can be very expensive. 

Health and temperament ( hence titles) are paramount.

Ask and verify before you buy.

Puppy fever can lead to hasty choices ( been there, done that).

Don't know where you are located, but you might ask the forum for breeders you can talk to, and visit, in your area.

Good luck!


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2013)

loveruby25 said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> The breeder told me the puppy is "plush coat sable" or "double coat". Is there anything I need to know about this aside from it being cosmetic?


"Sable" means that the general coloring of the GSD is found only on the tips of hair. The rest of the length of each hair is usually grey or some lighter color which can be seen when brushing the hair backward. However, the hair on the face, legs and underside is usually a solid color. Sable puppies are normally a light tan color (but this can vary), as opposed to the black puppies who grow up to be back and tan, etc.

All GSDs should have a double coat because that gives them a hardiness against the environment. The under-coat is made of soft fine hair which usually sheds on a seasonal basis. It comes out in tufts most noticeable on the thighs and shoulders.

With a plush coat, the hair of the outer-coat is also fairly fine and may be seen to fluff up slightly. This can look "glamorous" but requires regular grooming because the hair can shed all year round. A thorough daily brush with a good rake keeps it looking good with no need to ever wash the dog.

Some dogs are less "glamorous" with a coarser hair on the outer-coat which tends to lie fairly flat on the body. This requires a just a quick comb every few days to clear out the under-coat.


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