# Dog jumping in the blind



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Some love it, some hate it. Opinions? 

If your dog did jump in the blind and was intense and clean would you try to make him more "grounded"?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I am particularly interested in the opinion of judges. (I know you are out there). 

I will be honest and would appreciate some honest input. I am planning on showing my dog at some of the bigger trials this coming year. He is a jumper in the blind and guards very close. Here is a picture so that you can get an idea of how close he guards: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/487615.html
I have been advised by several people (people that DO know what they are talking about) that some judges (at higher levels) would dismiss the dog for guarding this way, despite the fact that he is clean and intense ( and does a silent guard on the field). Even if the judge did not dismiss the dog, they contend that I should make the dog guard on the ground for various other reasons. 
Would I be well advised to try to make him guard on the ground? (FYI, we tried to make him guard on the ground initially as a young dog but never could get him to do so). 
Thank you for your input.


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## Hundguy (Apr 30, 2003)

Hey Art, might be the wrong board for such a question. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think there are any Schutzhund judges or National Level Competitors on here to help. I know Sue is on here, so maybe she can ask Gabor about it.. Are you on the euro list, that list has many high level competitors & breeders on it.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Hey Dennis,

I am not on the Euro-list, I seem to be woefully behind the curve when it comes to internet sites. Perhaps you could PM me with info on the Euro-list? 
I do believe that I saw at least one judge around. If he would be so kind as to respond or send a PM I would be very grateful.
I did see Sue, if Gabor has an opinion on the matter that he would be so kind to share that would be greatly appreciated. Again I appreciate the input. Thanks.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Art, if you hear anything, if you would be so kind to post I would be very interested in hearing it...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Why would you need to be a "National Competitor" to comment ? You entered a National once didn't you Dennis? What do you think? 

I have not heard of any dogs dismissed recently because they jump in the blind. Yeah, if he bites the helper in the nose you are done but you said he was clean. The BSP winner does that behavior in the blind and obviously was not dismissed. I didn't hear any big controvesry about it and no I wasn't there, I watched the dog on You Tube, so, I guess maybe I don't know what I am talking about. lol.

I am in the "I don't like it" group but since it looks like a behavior that you have allowed, judging from the picture anyway, you might be hard pressed to change it. Comes down to what you like and what you think you can do about it at this point. If you say you are ready to enter bigger trials, seems to me, you are already down the road a ways. so, no matter how many opinions you get, you won't be fixing it now. You don't have time. Besides, you said you could not stop it before...do you have some new plan or way to accomplish it now?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Anne, can you explain why you don't like it? 

We have malinois in our club that does it too. I think they're trying to get him to cut it out.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Actually Dennis has done more than one National.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Quoting Anne:

"I have not heard of any dogs dismissed recently because they jump in the blind. Yeah, if he bites the helper in the nose you are done but you said he was clean. The BSP winner does that behavior in the blind and obviously was not dismissed. I didn't hear any big controvesry about it"

I thought the same thing and was a bit surprised to hear that this could result in dismissal. I also brought up assorted other dogs that jump in the blind, the one that you reference being the most obvious. The reply was that there is a difference between a dog jumping UP and DOWN with some distance from the helper and the dog jumping to the helper's face with inches of distance. They were quite certain that it would not be permitted by a judge (at a bigger trial), and as I said before I respect the opinion of those that said this, as they do know what thay are talking about. The only reason that I have to question it is that it caught me entirely off-guard and surprised me. 
I agree that it may be difficult to change the guarding, but if his current guarding is not permitted then I do not believe I have much of a choice. I have not come up with a brilliant plan to change it, but I have some ideas. I figure if I am going to do it now would be the time as it will give me several months.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I was just spell checking my post to Jason when I saw your response. I will answer Jason in a minute but what I was saying is that I have a dog right now that jumps, not like yours though. He keeps his back feet pretty much on the ground. However, I train all my dogs, ( at least I try to ), to stay back a couple of feet in the blind. There are two reasons for this. One, they bark better and two, they are less likely to bump because a helper moves or flinches. The problem you may have if he is that close is a helper who will flinch. Your helper may be used to it but in a trial, the helper does not know your dog. If he moves his head, yeah, your dog might bite him. Especially when you are in a big trial and the nerves and all the other excitement that goes on there loads him a bit more than usual. I frankly, do not see how a judge would dismiss a dog for this just because he is close. That would seem to be a bit unfair since there is no rule that says the dog can't get closer than six inches. I am not clear on the people who "know what they are talking about". What is it they know? You mean they have seen a judge dismiss a dog for this? 
I know you didn't ask for advice but I think if it were me, and I was worried about it, what I would do is teach the dog to stop further out . I really do not know how you will stop the jumping at this point without causing big problems with you or your helper. So, if you can get him to stop a foot or two back, that should solve it. You would really have to train it consistently and resist the urge to test since he will probably revert back to being too close after a couple of times of being allowed freedom to do that.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

I have competed nationally several times. We have a few national competitors visit and/or belong to our club. Our main helper is a nationally competitor AND a USA Judge. I am extremly confident when I say as long as the dog does NOT bother the helper in any way, you will not lose points due to "jumping style". I have seen MANY dogs at high level events jump in the blind versus doing a more contained hold.

That said, you always run the chance of getting a judge who is has his own ideas with a various little area of the protection routine, irregardless of what the rule book does say or does not say. This is why you can show up to suddenly find the arm presentation in the escape a bit odd, or the helper escaping in an arc instead of more of a straight line, or the dog expected to bark and hold for a crazy long time, and all kinds of "wierd" stuff you simply have to be prepared for. I know currently many judges are looking for a "strong" silent guard versus the dog simply sitting there calmly and patiently. 

Happy training,


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Anne, can you explain why you don't like it?


It's a waste of energy. I prefer to see a dog who channels all of his energy and drive into one activity in the blind and that is barking . It seems, once you allow the jumping, most of the drive and energy channels into the jumping part. I have never cared for the way it looks and while some people really seem impressed by it, to me, the dog shows an overall lack of intensity when they do it. I prefer it when the drive is channeled where it comes out in one direction, that is how you get intensity. When the drive is allowed to go somewhere else besides to the bark, just like a hose with holes in it, by the time the water gets to the end, there is not a lot of pressure left. That's about the best analogy I can come up with. Ideally, you want to build the drive up and then channel it into either barking, biting or fighting. This is just an unnecessary, drive draining activity if you ask me..

Like Art mentioned, you also get a situation where the dog can make a mistake that will disqualify you. Also, in order for a dog to bark intensely for a longer period of time, they need to establish a rhythm. The jumping where the dog has all four feet off the ground, interrupts that rhythm which again, drains drive and intensity and takes away from the barking. 
Now, having said all that, it is hard to tell in Art’s picture just what the dog is doing, people would have to see it, but pretty much all of the dogs I have seen that jump that high, don't bark well.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I appreciate the input. Thank you all.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Art,

Depends on the judge. What I have seen in the US, it comes down to a personal preference.

Enzo is a major jumper on the holds, in the face. Some judges, mostly in Europe, like it due to the power and intensity. But... Depends on the consistency of the barking as well (focused, rhythm) and the placement of the dog when jumping (one place or a bit scattered).

But...... then there is the helper on the re-bite. Dog must bite, no matter what. And the presentation can be off, depending on the helper and experience.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> So, if you can get him to stop a foot or two back, that should solve it. You would really have to train it consistently and resist the urge to test since he will probably revert back to being too close after a couple of times of being allowed freedom to do that.


That appears to be what the guys at my club are doing with the malinois. Draw a line in the dirt and using electric to make sure the dog doesn't cross it during hold and bark.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Depends on the judge. What I have seen in the US, it comes down to a personal preference.


It comes down to a personal presference to dismiss the dog for barking aggressively in the helper's face?? I have yet to see or hear about a dog being dismissed for barking too close when he did not touch the helper. How they 'score' the dog for the behaviors they display in the blind will be affected by what a judge likes, I can agree with that part. 
In this day and age of the internet, I would expect to hear quite a bit about it if a judge dismissed a dog for barking "too aggressively". The day that happens I guess SchH protection will be a total farce.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Anne,

Not dismissed for the jumping. I have never seen that.

Effect on points, whole picture of the dog in the b/h and how the judge likes it or not.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks for weighing in Sue. As I said before I had never seen nor heard of a dog being dismissed for this behavior. That is why I was concerned when I heard this and wanted to see if anyone else had any knowledge of a dog being dismissed for this behavior.
I do understand that a judge's preference affects how it will be scored. I also understand the possible short-comings of the dog jumping in the blind (quality of barking, possible bumping etc.). I just wanted some assurance that it would not result in dismissal. 
Again, I thank you all for your input.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

A far as competition goes aside from all the "proper drive and intensity stuff" jumping usually results in a lower score. That is two dogs showing equal barking and holding the dog that sits will in most instances get the higher score. 
The reason is the jumping really throws the ball into the helpers court as far as how your dog will perform. If you have a rock solid helper who will give perfect presentation no matter what and doesn't even blink when whiskers brush his nose you will get as good a score as the barking allows. If the helper flinches, or even blinks this will possibly cause a bump, or even just a change in drive level of your dog, making the barking seem less consistent or even causing a bump. This plus the greater difficulty in getting a perfect presentation in this situation are enough to make it worth considering this an area to work on for the future.

I've seen a Rottie get a really good score with an incredible amount of bounce in the blind and his score was mostly a credit to his helper who put up with what amounted to a very wet shower on every bark and didn't even blink the spittle away.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

A far as competition goes aside from all the "proper drive and intensity stuff" jumping usually results in a lower score. That is two dogs showing equal barking and holding the dog that sits will in most instances get the higher score. 
The reason is the jumping really throws the ball into the helpers court as far as how your dog will perform. If you have a rock solid helper who will give perfect presentation no matter what and doesn't even blink when whiskers brush his nose you will get as good a score as the barking allows. If the helper flinches, or even blinks this will possibly cause a bump, or even just a change in drive level of your dog, making the barking seem less consistent. This plus the greater difficulty in getting a perfect presentation in this situation are enough to make it worth considering this an area to work on for the future.

I've seen a Rottie get a really good score with an incredible amount of bounce in the blind and his score was mostly a credit to his helper who put up with what amounted to a very wet shower on every bark and didn't even blink the spittle away.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I've never seen nor heard of a dog being DQ'd for jumping. If it's done right it will score the same points as if he stays on the ground. There is now a rule that if a dog jumps high enough that his head goes past the top of the helpers scratch pants the dog can be dismissed. Again I've never heard of that being enforced.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: There is now a rule that if a dog jumps high enough that his head goes past the top of the helpers scratch pants the dog can be dismissed.


Ok, now you have my attention....where can I find that rule?

I guess we will now see lots of discrimination toward short helpers. How ridiculous do things have to get?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Where do they come up with these rules? And how is it the participants are never made aware of them?

I'd also like to hear more info on this rule, because I have never heard of it, nor seen or heard of a case where the dog was dismissed for jumping either.

Great.. now we need to recruit NBA players to do helperwork.... This is ridiculous!


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

If it helps anyone pass, I'll do my helperwork while standing on a stepladder.  I know there isn't a rule against that..........................yet.

Find it in print or it didn't happen


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

> Quote: There is now a rule that if a dog jumps high enough that his head goes past the top of the helpers scratch pants the dog can be dismissed.












I'm most interested in where this rule is as well.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

When was the rule implemented? Not done at the WUSV, not at the SV judges meeting.

Have not heard of it in Europe or in the states.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I was told this by an SV judge. I can't remember for sure but I think he said it was in the judges book. I'll try and get a hold of him and see if there is anywhere in print that we can see it. If it's in his book maybe he can scan it and I could post it.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Mattox,

That would be great to get the rule posted.

We have not heard of the rule and we normally hear of the changes that occur, as that impacts us here and in Europe from the friends that are judges/competitors/helpers all in one to the World level. 

We stay on top of any changes as Gabor competes in Europe on a consistent basis as well as in the US.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: R. MattoxI was told this by an SV judge. I can't remember for sure but I think he said it was in the judges book. I'll try and get a hold of him and see if there is anywhere in print that we can see it. If it's in his book maybe he can scan it and I could post it.


Was wondering if you found out where the rule was.

Thanks!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Maddox, 

Just following up to see if you found the rule.

Thanks


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Nope. Faulty memory I guess. He said that he rememberd the conversation and that someone had made that statement. Although he had heard rummblings about the jumping and possible rule changes he was unaware of any such rule change.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Mattox,

Thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to look into it.


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