# Why is the GSD a bad choice for 1st time owners?



## Agaribay805

Why are people discouraged when thinking about getting a GSD a their first dog? I think it may be because people are surprised by the amount of time/work/money required but don't those apply to all dogs in general? Is it mostly because some can have dominant tendencies? Thank you.


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## car2ner

My GSD pups take a lot of work to keep up with and train properly. And older GSD might be just fine for a first time dog. 

Honestly I have spent much more on these dogs than I have on other dogs. We do IPO and any animal sport can really rack up the bills.


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## Jax08

Agaribay805 said:


> Why are people discouraged when thinking about getting a GSD a their first dog? I think it may be because people are surprised by the amount of time/work/money required but don't those apply to all dogs in general? Is it mostly because some can have dominant tendencies? Thank you.


I think part of it is the commitment. Part is myth. 

IME, Boxers take much more. High energy! Neither of my GSDs were destructive. All 3 of our Boxers were. I don't believe it has anything to do with "dominant" tendencies.


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## annabirdie

They tend to be really big chewers as puppies...mine wasn't but I hear they can be, nipping on everything and everyone. Mine is a "show line" which are low drive, "working line" dogs I think are a much bigger commitment. The house training was a breeze tough, she's so smart that she figured out very quickly. I wouldn't discourage a first time owner, they are great dogs, just read up a bit so you know what to expect and choose wisely. No backyard breeders, these guys are prone to lots of health issues too, you need a good breeder.


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## Solo93

They're sensitive and emotional, and sometimes also shy and reactive. That doesn't leave much room for handler error...if you're going to make mistakes, better to do it with a more resilient breed. That would be my guess as to why.


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## dogma13

I think they are bad for a casual owner,not necessarily a first time owner.


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## Magwart

Older GSDs can be _amazing_ first dogs, a great introduction to the breed for people who've never owned a dog before and haven't a clue where to start. One that's already house trained, with some leash manners, and some basic OB can make a newbie owner feel like a rock star as they go through their first group classes. They don't have extreme exercise needs beyond a normal walk. Most are no longer into destruction of sofas and landscaping. They don't have any interest in biting your pants or nipping your hands. They're generally sane, and what you see is what you get.

As puppies and adolescents, they're often pretty stinking crazy. I don't even particularly enjoy fostering them temporarily at that young age, at least compared to older dogs. They're bonkers. I'll take a 6+ year old foster dog over a 4 month old ANY day.


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## Birbeck

Most people know nothing about dogs, or regurgitate whatever petsmart feeds them.
They shed more than most dogs.
They eat more than more 'manageable' dogs especially if working line.
They have finicky stomachs and someone unfamiliar with handling this might find it incredibly daunting.
They're typically more active and require consistency and can become aggressive, destructive and depressed if their needs aren't met.
Most first time dog owners are young, living in apartments most often and very few apartments allow the breed.


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## Agaribay805

Thanks guys, these are all really great answers. I hear people being discouraged over and over but felt like I wasn't sure what the reasons were behind it. 

@car2ner - Oh man I have spent so much money on this puppy already & I've had her for a month. crates, gates, food, toys, vet, etc… & yes she is a lot of work! 

@AnnaBirdie - my puppy is so mouthy, its ridiculous. Its nice to hear that there are some people that don't discourage it though. I have at least 5 years to go before I get another dog but when the time comes, Ill definitely be putting more thought into the lines it will come from.

@solo93 - Your completely right. I feel like I HAVE to get her into training classes right away so that I don't handle situations poorly without realizing it. 

@Magwart - Our puppy is stinking cranky! I almost adopted an adult dog but my husband convinced me that our bond would be stronger if we raised it from a puppy. So we did that but I won't be getting a puppy while I have young kids ever again. Its too much. We've been handling it well only because Im a stay at home mom but Im seriously on duty 24/7. Bonkers is exactly the word for GSD puppies! Although, even with her going nuts most of the day, I know for a fact that I want more GSDs at some point. Fostering could be the perfect way to accomplish that!

I got my first puppy a month ago and we did enough research and prepared mentally long enough that we haven't been completely surprised or taken back yet. But I will agree with everyone that they are a lot of work. I have two kids already and I feel like I just had a 3rd baby. She needs me just as much as my kids and she depends on us for everything. We love her so much that it seriously amazes me. She is challenging but we are up for the challenge.


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## car2ner

> I got my first puppy a month ago and we did enough research and prepared mentally long enough that we haven't been completely surprised or taken back yet. But I will agree with everyone that they are a lot of work. I have two kids already and I feel like I just had a 3rd baby. She needs me just as much as my kids and she depends on us for everything. We love her so much that it seriously amazes me. She is challenging but we are up for the challenge.



Be careful when this pup gets to be about two years old or so. After all the work and training you will realize what an awesome dog you have...and then you'll find yourself thinking about getting another one. Beware of "puppy fever" (grin)


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## cdwoodcox

Sounds like you guys will be fine. 
The problem as I see it isn't with first time owners it is with some people in general. Some people will do exactly what you are doing. It is a lot of work. It takes a cash commitment but they do exactly what needs to be done because they love their puppy and they are willing to put in the hours to make it work. 
Some people on the other hand go out buy a gsd. Put in no training, don't socialize with dogs or people, never really developing a bond. They are either ignorant or just plain lazy. So at some point when the dog gets a little bigger and starts to become too much of a bother they drop off at shelter, or just dump off, etc...


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## WateryTart

My husband and I are first time owners and we went the breeder/puppy route. Given how extensively I researched prior to deciding to go ahead and then before picking a breeder, I think going to a breeder was actually what made it successful for us: We started out with a high quality puppy, we received great guidance and advice on raising and training her, and she's grown up to be a great dog for us. Given our lack of experience, we were not equipped to handle the surprises that can come from an adult rescue (and yes, I maintain that even if the dog is a good, stable dog, there will be surprises that can crop up, and less data based on close relatives to inform an approach).

We also went into it just assuming that the puppy was going to change how we lived, and to a large extent she has. They're mostly good changes.

So based on my own experience, I think potential reasons why a GSD might not be a good idea is if there's: 1) lack of knowledge about what you're getting; 2) lack of good support (whether that's continued guidance from your breeder or rescue, or training resources in your area); 3) lack of commitment to the dog; and 4) lack of realistic expectations.


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## WateryTart

car2ner said:


> I got my first puppy a month ago and we did enough research and prepared mentally long enough that we haven't been completely surprised or taken back yet. But I will agree with everyone that they are a lot of work. I have two kids already and I feel like I just had a 3rd baby. She needs me just as much as my kids and she depends on us for everything. We love her so much that it seriously amazes me. She is challenging but we are up for the challenge.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be careful when this pup gets to be about two years old or so. After all the work and training you will realize what an awesome dog you have...and then you'll find yourself thinking about getting another one. Beware of "puppy fever" (grin)
Click to expand...

It's true. My girl is coming up on 2, and she is awesome. And I'm already starting to think how if one GSD is so much fun, two would be even BETTER! Not rational for our situation right now, so no second pup for me, but that didn't stop me from melting all over the place when somebody brought a litter of puppies to the training club to socialize in an empty ring. They were so stinking cute.


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## DutchKarin

I think the reason why it isn't a good first time dog is that when a GSD is poorly bred, poorly socialized, not trained, the problems have more consequences. The protection breeds were bred to be confident and use their mouths to make things happen. So the risk is increased that if you don't take it seriously you will have a dog that might be dog or human aggressive. If border collie is poorly trained, etc, you will have a dog that doesn't stop moving and probably runs away to find someone more suitable to them. A poorly trained labrador, etc... will run around like a crazy man and swim in every mud puddle within a mile. A poorly trained poodle... you get the point.

The risk and liability is greater I think. I also think training and handling a confident and smart dog takes consistency, clarity and structure that humans, as we project fur baby stuff, are not always that good at. Then we get posts on here that say things like, "he is deliberately defiant."

Morning Blab. Have a good day everyone.


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## SuperG

*Why is the GSD a bad choice for 1st time owners?*

Hmmmmmm....since the question is a sweeping generalization of sorts, I guess many of the replies will be sweeping generalizations as well...including mine.

GSDs, along with numerous other breeds have characteristics which might not make them "plug and play" dogs. My limited experience ( 3 GSDs..17 years worth ) suggests the basic nature ( drives, temperament, bite strength, size, intelligence, exercise requirements, etc.) of a GSD can be too much for some, if they are not up to the task. If the first year of having a GSD pup as it develops is squandered and the owner is not committed to the development of the dog, it can become a nightmare of sorts going forward. IMO, a GSD along with other certain breeds require the human to invest a significant amount of effort in order to ensure the long haul. I kind of think it's just that simple.

If a person is honest about their intentions, as well as educated on the breed and follows through on the requirements to raise a GSD, for whatever purpose intended....a GSD is a wonderful choice for 1st time owners....and in my biased opinion, one of the best.


SuperG


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## kaslkaos

My take, from my experience with wonderful Dynamo aquired as a six month old pup is this.
Regular "pet" trainers know nothing, and if you follow their advice you'll end up with an out of control brat that they would declare a "bad dog".
Dynamo needed a lot of motivation and a little bit of discpline. "Pet dog trainers" won't even let you play tug as a reward, they don't know how to handle it, and physically lack the space in their facility.
Aversives of any kind are considered cruel so halti's (dangerous to a boisterous dog) are recommended.
I would have been dragged into traffic a million times, would have had 3 dead cats, would have never let her off-leash, if I'd follow the "pet flavour training". Instead, I educated myself here, took her to various different trainers (a schutz/protection place to gain control), then later an open-minded pet trainer, then on to agility. 
So I can see how gsd's are different, and I 1st time owner might end up thinking their wonderful dog is a monster.
Dynamo--you are missed, you were awesome.


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## Stonevintage

The flexibility of the GSD sets it above many other breeds. The intelligence that allows this can also show itself itself in negative ways if the drives and needs are not met. They must have what they must have. You can provide enough exercise but if their "intellectual" needs are not met - there could be problems and visa versa. 

lol - also, I've never heard of another breed that is quite as enthusiastic for the wonderful sport of landsharking and velcro-ing. Some people get bothered by that. IMO the GSD is a more intense breed. They want to go everywhere, know about everything and really live life outloud and they want a deep relationship with their owner. You pair that up with someone who would better suited to a more sedate breed and you have problems.


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## cdwoodcox

A lot of good answers on here. I wish we had a like option on the posts.


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## carmspack

"my puppy is so mouthy, its ridiculous. Its nice to hear that there are some people that don't discourage it though"

You DO need to discourage landsharking and mouthing


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## Jake and Elwood

What Kasalkaos said….
A 'pet trainer' is a crap shoot when it comes to training a GSD. We wasted a lot of time/money during the first year with our pups, taking advice from "pet" trainers and even a "behaviorist". In hindsight, these trainers lacked knowledge/expertise of GSD's and many of their suggestions were not very helpful. By far, the most helpful information came from this forum. Because of the abundance of information and expertise, I was able to sort through and pick and choose what I believed would be most appropriate for our two pups throughout their quickly-changing/evolving developmental stages. We did some things right and some things not-so-right. And, because of a suggestion/recommendation from a member of this forum, we reached out to a reputable GSD trainer and are now enjoying (for the first time) working with a trainer who understands GSD's. Training is on track for the first time. Best advice: 1) research breeder, 2) only one GSD at a time, 3) find an experienced GSD trainer and 4) socialize, socialize, socialize your pup!!!


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## Agaribay805

carmspack said:


> "my puppy is so mouthy, its ridiculous. Its nice to hear that there are some people that don't discourage it though"
> 
> You DO need to discourage landsharking and mouthing


whoops meant to say there are some people who don't discourage this breed for a first time dog owner as long as they do enough research.

My puppy has made huge progress since she came home as far as nipping but still has to get her chew sessions on her bullies several times a day.


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## Agaribay805

cdwoodcox said:


> A lot of good answers on here. I wish we had a like option on the posts.


I agree. These are all awesome answers. I stared this post out of honest curiosity as to why people think a GSD isn't the best choice for first time dog owners, since I literally just went out did this. It turned into this really great "list" of important things I should keep in mind so that we can be successful. 

The biggest issue I've felt we have had is with finding a dog trainer that focuses on GSDs. I completely agree that a general dog trainer is not cut to the job. There are plenty of trainers around but GSD trainers all mostly in LA which is a 2.5 hour drive from me. I can't even take my puppy out yet (bc of vaccines) so I've found a few trainers who will drive to me but will charge $300-400 per hour because of traveling costs. We can afford it once or twice but not on a consistent long term basis, which is what we are actually looking for. I feel like a dog trainer should be a big part of your support system. In the meantime, I have a friend who breeds rotties and her husband is a retired police officer who has a cop german shepherd. I've been relying on this website and her heavily. Tons and tons of information on here. Sometimes it can seem like a daunting task to sort through it but I pretty much have no choice at this point. I can't wait until I can take our puppy out. That way we can drive to LA for training sessions and it'll be a fraction of the price.


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## Stonevintage

Good job Agaribay for doing your homework. Sounds like you have a solid plan taking shape.  Please keep us posted with pics and updates during your journey with this lucky pup.


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## Agaribay805

car2ner said:


> Be careful when this pup gets to be about two years old or so. After all the work and training you will realize what an awesome dog you have...and then you'll find yourself thinking about getting another one. Beware of "puppy fever" (grin)


2 kids and a puppy is all I can handle for a long time to come! When my youngest is at least 7 ( our puppy would be 5 then) Id consider another puppy, or at least a rescue. I don't regret getting our puppy at all but I just would NEVER do it again while I have a toddler in the house.


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## wolfy dog

It can work if a first time owner does his research, studies the lines, reads up on dogs in general. I actually enjoy working with first time owners who are committed as they don't have to undo old habits. My first dog, adopted as an 9 month old male, (not a GSD) was very difficult for me but he forced me to look into behavior. Looking back I could have gotten way more out of him but he worked out well and we had him for 11 years. Classes at that time were not readily available but I made the best of it. He was not a typical first-time dog though but I was committed and willing to work with him.


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## Agaribay805

Stonevintage said:


> The flexibility of the GSD sets it above many other breeds. The intelligence that allows this can also show itself itself in negative ways if the drives and needs are not met. They must have what they must have. You can provide enough exercise but if their "intellectual" needs are not met - there could be problems and visa versa.
> 
> lol - also, I've never heard of another breed that is quite as enthusiastic for the wonderful sport of landsharking and velcro-ing. Some people get bothered by that. IMO the GSD is a more intense breed. They want to go everywhere, know about everything and really live life outloud and they want a deep relationship with their owner. You pair that up with someone who would better suited to a more sedate breed and you have problems.


I can honestly say that I do need to look more into meeting my puppies intellectual needs. I haven't figured out what kind of "job" she'll have yet. I was hoping training several times a day could be her job to start with but I just haven't found a person to train me lol She can do some basic commands but I know she gets bored of doing the same ones over and over. So now we try to do the basics ones with my toddler near by as a distraction just to add a twist. I tried enrolling her in a puppy class but they said i should come back later when she gains more weight. She now weighs 16 pounds at 3 months so still small but steadily gaining. Im thinking she'll be ready for puppy classes at 4 months.


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## MineAreWorkingline

A German Shepherd's most important job is to be a family dog at the end of the day, regardless of venue worked, if any. There is no reason that if a person does their research of the breed and selects a GSD based on the breed being a good fit for their family, and purchases from a reputable breeder, that there should be any heroic actions necessary to incorporate the puppy into one's household. They do require strong leadership and not all are cut out to assume that role. One has to be honest with one's self in making that determination. Alternatively, there are lines of GSDs that produce a softer dog, and there can be pups in any breeder's litters that are of a softer side that might be more than suitable.

I think it is critical for a prospective buyer to pay close attention to the expected behavior as called for in the standard when the dog is well bred. Not everybody wants to deal with a dog that is genetically programmed to have a tendency to guard and be protective, which can result in aggression. The exercise requirement of a GSD is another point to be given careful consideration. Leash walking is not an adequate outlet for their exercise needs and a lack of exercise can lead to a host of behavioral and aggressive problems.


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## newlie

I think all the posts on this thread have been great!

I don't know what it is like to raise a puppy because both of my dogs have been rescues, but I have read enough on this forum to know about some of the challenges of raising a puppy. I have also read many posts about the problems new owners of rescues face, but somehow, it seems we deal with those more as individual issues without ever acknowledging that part of it comes with rescuing. In other words, everyone acknowledges how hard it is to deal with a puppy landsharking, and they should because it is a common challenge and it IS hard. But most of the time, we don't necessarily acknowledge the common challenges of bring an 85 pound adult dog into your home. If a puppy is over-tired, cranky, fearful or misbehaving, you can pick it up if need be, like you would a small child in the same circumstances, and put it down for a nap, comfort it or remove it from the venue. The same thing is not always that easy, and may be impossible, if you are bringing a sixteen year old adolescent into your home or an 85 pound adult dog, particularly since many of them carry baggage from past experiences with humans.

My experiences with rescues have been good and I wouldn't trade either one of mine for a minute, but Newlie was a little bit of a challenge at first, mostly because he was much younger than we thought. We were told he was between 3-4 years old, but the vet said "No way," he was more like 1-2 years old. And Newlie was, and is, a sweet dog, but the energy, my gosh! I used to think he had springs in his legs. I can't tell you the number of times, I would be out playing with him in the freezing cold, pitch dark, backyard after work because if I didn't, he wouldn't be able to stand himself.

There are some shepherds who would probably not be a good match for first time dogs owners, but many others who would do fine as long as their expectations are realistic and most importantly, the commitment is there. Life can throw any of us some curve balls, but when I adopt a dog, I take it for life, either mine or theirs.


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## Stonevintage

I didn't realize she was only 16lbs. That sounds like good advise to wait. I would like to - at this time - shout praises for this site and the people who post here to help

I gained valuable knowledge here and one area I would like to recommend to you is to look into "drives" and "rewards". Some dogs are ball or tug freaks... I used to think "great"! we'll always be able to get good exercise in the yard with this dog. But balls and tugs are vital training tools too for toy driven pups and turns training sessions into a win-win.

The "drives" if you read and understand the basics - will help you to know your pup's "wiring" as she grows and her interests and what really excites her becomes known to you.

Seeing these drives in your particular pup is your key to what will assist you with training as well as what activity can really bring fulfillment and joy into her life in the future. It would be beneficial for you to learn about them so you will recognize them when they come. Some of what you see as a difficulty or undesirable behavior in the future- if you recognize what's behind it (drive), that will help you with a proper training approach. 

This helps also, as time goes along and your questions are more specific help you to understand advise given when you get a response here by a trainer. When you get in to more specific questions or issues that are not generic normal stuff - the answers and suggestions can be more advanced - if your familiar with these terms and concepts- you will get a lot more out of those posts


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## Agaribay805

Stonevintage said:


> Good job Agaribay for doing your homework. Sounds like you have a solid plan taking shape.  Please keep us posted with pics and updates during your journey with this lucky pup.


Thank you StoneVintage! We are always trying to learn more and this website has been there to fall back on. Im so glad I found it and made an account. Having a GSD is really something special.


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## Agaribay805

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A German Shepherd's most important job is to be a family dog at the end of the day, regardless of venue worked, if any. There is no reason that if a person does their research of the breed and selects a GSD based on the breed being a good fit for their family, and purchases from a reputable breeder, that there should be any heroic actions necessary to incorporate the puppy into one's household.
> 
> 
> .


I love this! Sometimes you feel like there is an unwritten rule that says GSDs have to have a formal job. I agree working lines should have more structured jobs though. I think training will be one job and Im hoping when she is older she can be my running partner.


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## rfra

Agaribay805 said:


> Why are people discouraged when thinking about getting a GSD a their first dog? I think it may be because people are surprised by the amount of time/work/money required but don't those apply to all dogs in general? Is it mostly because some can have dominant tendencies? Thank you.



The warning should not be taken lightly. Dogs have different abilities and needs and owners must learn and respect these. While you are correct that these needs apply to all dogs, the degree varies a lot and the repercussions of failing to meet some dogs needs is MUCH higher.

I have had dogs my entire life including field Labs, Spaniels, Beagles, Terriers, and various mutts. I also now have a 6 month old working line GSD with high drive. All dogs need to get exercise and interaction, but the GSD is a whole different ball game.

My GSD is the most intelligent, loyal, and fun dog I've ever owned. He is also the most demanding. I run him an hour every morning before work and he gets up to another hour of training and play per day. If I have an early meeting and cannot run the GSD before work, my wife is in for a heck of a day. Thankfully she stays at home and our kids are home schooled so they can still play with him and take him for a walk (but that alone is not close to enough to satisfy his work needs). His pent up energy will drive him (and others) crazy as he runs through the house and tries to play with everything and everybody. Putting him in an exercise pen can provide the family with a little relief but it's also depressing for the dog who needs more activity. He is exactly what I wanted in a dog, but for the average person who is not going to put significant time into their dog every day, he would be a disaster waiting to happen.

I also currently have a Lab and Terrier. Neither require more exercise or stimulation than a 15 minute walk and a little bit of tug or fetch. The difference in their needs is night and day.

A GOOD breeder will identify puppies personalities and match them to the type of family they are going to, but just as there are a lot of bad/uncommitted dog owners, there are a plenty of breeders that are not so great either.

Further, a dog without structure and discipline will be naughty because they are bored and lack respect because they've been indirectly taught that's ok. Evidence proves that the VAST majority of people are willing to put very little effort into their dogs. How many little dogs do you see out walking their owners, pulling on the leash, barking at everything while the owner appears confused and distraught trying to control them while (maybe) offering an apology and excuse? I see them every single day. Do you think they thought to themselves when they first got the dog that they would intentionally be bad at giving the dog exercise and training? I doubt it, they were simply unrealistic. Imagine if these owners had a high drive 80 pound GSD? They would probably be hurt and/or sued in short order.

Most first time dog owners simply have no idea what they are willing to put into a dog. Romantic visions of playing ball in a field and hiking those trails each day quickly fade after the dog has chewed their furniture, dug up the garden, pooped on the floor a dozen times, and demands to go for a walk in the rain after their owner had a long day at work and just wants to watch TV. It's far better to start with a lower-need dog where overestimating your commitment will not cause an animal unnecessary stress and possibly cause a dangerous situation. If one finds out they love working with dogs, has the consistent time to invest, and gains some experience training, then they might love stepping up to a dog with more capabilities (but more needs).


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## Susan_GSD_mom

rfra said:


> The warning should not be taken lightly. Dogs have different abilities and needs and owners must learn and respect these. While you are correct that these needs apply to all dogs, the degree varies a lot and the repercussions of failing to meet some dogs needs is MUCH higher.
> 
> I have had dogs my entire life including field Labs, Spaniels, Beagles, Terriers, and various mutts. I also now have a 6 month old working line GSD with high drive. All dogs need to get exercise and interaction, but the GSD is a whole different ball game.
> 
> My GSD is the most intelligent, loyal, and fun dog I've ever owned. He is also the most demanding. I run him an hour every morning before work and he gets up to another hour of training and play per day. If I have an early meeting and cannot run the GSD before work, my wife is in for a heck of a day. Thankfully she stays at home and our kids are home schooled so they can still play with him and take him for a walk (but that alone is not close to enough to satisfy his work needs). His pent up energy will drive him (and others) crazy as he runs through the house and tries to play with everything and everybody. Putting him in an exercise pen can provide the family with a little relief but it's also depressing for the dog who needs more activity. He is exactly what I wanted in a dog, but for the average person who is not going to put significant time into their dog every day, he would be a disaster waiting to happen.
> 
> I also currently have a Lab and Terrier. Neither require more exercise or stimulation than a 15 minute walk and a little bit of tug or fetch. The difference in their needs is night and day.
> 
> A GOOD breeder will identify puppies personalities and match them to the type of family they are going to, but just as there are a lot of bad/uncommitted dog owners, there are a plenty of breeders that are not so great either.
> 
> Further, a dog without structure and discipline will be naughty because they are bored and lack respect because they've been indirectly taught that's ok. Evidence proves that the VAST majority of people are willing to put very little effort into their dogs. How many little dogs do you see out walking their owners, pulling on the leash, barking at everything while the owner appears confused and distraught trying to control them while (maybe) offering an apology and excuse? I see them every single day. Do you think they thought to themselves when they first got the dog that they would intentionally be bad at giving the dog exercise and training? I doubt it, they were simply unrealistic. Imagine if these owners had a high drive 80 pound GSD? They would probably be hurt and/or sued in short order.
> 
> Most first time dog owners simply have no idea what they are willing to put into a dog. Romantic visions of playing ball in a field and hiking those trails each day quickly fade after the dog has chewed their furniture, dug up the garden, pooped on the floor a dozen times, and demands to go for a walk in the rain after their owner had a long day at work and just wants to watch TV. It's far better to start with a lower-need dog where overestimating your commitment will not cause an animal unnecessary stress and possibly cause a dangerous situation. If one finds out they love working with dogs, has the consistent time to invest, and gains some experience training, then they might love stepping up to a dog with more capabilities (but more needs).


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Susan


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## 4Flynn

*Because it can be dangerous if you don't know how to control a powerful dog.*



Agaribay805 said:


> Why are people discouraged when thinking about getting a GSD a their first dog? I think it may be because people are surprised by the amount of time/work/money required but don't those apply to all dogs in general? Is it mostly because some can have dominant tendencies? Thank you.


If you don't have any experience raising a dog, you may not know what it takes to make it clear to the dog that you are in charge and the pack leader. They WILL test you and you have to know the proper response and what is acceptable. A lot of people that have this problem don't even know why their dog is acting aggressive-- it is because they think they are in charge. This becomes very dangerous when you have a large dog, especially one with such protective traits. I'm sure you can imagine the difference between an aggressive chihuahua and an aggressive german shepherd.


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## MissChloe

Bumping this thread because it speaks to me and, I think, to anyone else thinking of getting a GSD for the first time.



car2ner said:


> ...An older GSD might be just fine for a first time dog.


Having adopted a couple of older dogs, I want to add this is true as long as the dogs have been properly assessed by the shelter or rescue. The stress of being in a shelter or being in the midst of adjusting to a foster home can hide a dog's true nature. A dog can behave out of character. Takes time for a dog to relax into their real self. I'd want to research NILIF, crate training, house breaking and other crucial info before bringing an adult dog into your home.



dogma13 said:


> I think they are bad for a casual owner,not necessarily a first time owner.


It's the descriptions of intense training that make someone like me wonder. I imagine this is for working line GSDs and young GSDs in general. Would an older, softer working line GSD work for someone with medium energy?



Magwart said:


> Older GSDs can be _amazing_ first dogs, a great introduction to the breed for people who've never owned a dog before and haven't a clue where to start.... As puppies and adolescents, they're often pretty stinking crazy. I don't even particularly enjoy fostering them temporarily at that young age, at least compared to older dogs. They're bonkers. I'll take a 6+ year old foster dog over a 4 month old ANY day.


All the puppy threads I've read have convinced me I'm not up for a GSD puppy. You've confirmed what I've been thinking. Maybe an adult GSD 5 or 6 years old.



DutchKarin said:


> I think the reason why it isn't a good first time dog is that when a GSD is poorly bred, poorly socialized, not trained, the problems have more consequences. The protection breeds were bred to be confident and use their mouths to make things happen...
> 
> ...The risk and liability is greater I think. I also think training and handling a confident and smart dog takes consistency, clarity and structure that humans, as we project fur baby stuff, are not always that good at....


Yes. My shepherd x was fearful, dog-reactive and had a prey drive. Even with ongoing training, I had to manage her environment for her. Got used to it. Took my current, uber-social lab to realize how restrictive it was (but worth it).

From the POV of someone thinking of getting a GSD someday, good thread.

*Agaribay*, hope all is going well with your puppy.


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## Cassidy's Mom

MissChloe said:


> Bumping this thread because it speaks to me and, I think, to anyone else thinking of getting a GSD for the first time.
> 
> It's the descriptions of intense training that make someone like me wonder. I imagine this is for working line GSDs and young GSDs in general. Would an older, softer working line GSD work for someone with medium energy?
> 
> All the puppy threads I've read have convinced me I'm not up for a GSD puppy. You've confirmed what I've been thinking. Maybe an adult GSD 5 or 6 years old.


We've had GSDs for 30 years - 2 American lines, 2 West German show lines, and one West German working line, in that order. Each of them have been SUCH individuals that it makes it very difficult for me to make generalizations about lines. The two that have been the most similar are the two we have now - Keefer, WGSL, and Halo, WGWL. There are also distinct differences between them, but it's interesting that he's more like her than like his half sister Dena. 

My first dog as an adult was a GSD, and other than going through a destructive chewing phase (she liked plastic flowerpots, garden hoses, cardboard boxes and newspaper, and it didn't matter how good a job we thought we did of keeping them out of reach she still managed to find and shred them, lol), Sneaker was extremely easy. We took one obedience class with her and she was good to go. She sold me on dogs in general, and GSDs specifically. She lived to 14-1/2 years old. 

Our next dog Cassidy was totally different. Well, except for the destructive chewing phase, lol. Super reactive, basically a temperamental mess. We had pretty much forgotten the little we knew about dog training by the time we got her after Sneaker died, and spent a lot of time in classes with her. I'm by no means an expert, but probably at least 75% of what I know about dog training and behavior can be attributed to her. 

We lost her at 4 years old to discospondylitis, and after that we got Dena, who was pretty much perfect. I did a lot of training because everything I'd learned from Cassidy was still fresh in my mind. She aced all her classes, she loved people, especially kids, and she got along great with other dogs. Not a reactive bone in her body, not a chewer, and she was trustworthy around the house from a very young age. Where Cassidy was difficult, Dena was easy. She was so wonderful that when a half sibling became available about a year later, we jumped at the chance. 

Keefer is a big sweet mush of a dog who loves everyone. He is a bit leash reactive, but it's due to him being overly social and wanting to meet every dog he sees. He gets frustrated when he can't, so he'll bark at a dog at a distance but is friendly with dogs right in his face. He's 11 now and slowing down with age, but when young he was much more energetic than Dena who was very laid back, except when it came to tennis balls which she was obsessed with. Like his sister, he was never a destructive chewer. Sadly, we lost her at 4 years old too, to lymphoma. 

Halo is my working line girl who we got a few months after Dena died, and I was a bit wary about making that leap. Would she be too much dog for us? I didn't know, but she was a confident and fearless pup, so I threw everything I could at her. I started training her immediately, she went into puppy class 3 weeks later, and was in four more basic classes after that. She is intense, focused, and driven, but also sweet and affectionate. She's less interested in people in general than Keef, but if she likes you she can be obnoxiously kissy. She won't start anything with another dog but she will not take any crap either. She's good on leash walking past other dogs but does not like them in her face. She'll also snark at dogs that snark at her first if we're out walking. Even though she is a drivey little beast (around 55 pounds), she has a terrific off switch and is very easy to live with around the house. But at nearly 8 years old (her birthday is next Wednesday), she still sometimes finds things to chew. Because she's so athletic I found a sport for her to compete in, flyball, which she's excelled at. 

I will say that Halo went through kind of a spooky phase when young and has been a challenge in some ways, so she's been an education for me for sure, even after raising 4 previous shepherds. I was up for the challenge though, I'm very determined and have access to very good training here in the Bay Area. I think she was more dog than I was expecting, but not more than I could handle. I just needed to learn what to do with her drives and how to channel them appropriately. She and Keefer are similar in energy and enthusiasm, the main difference is her intensity and work ethic. She works hard, plays hard, and then sleeps hard. She is assertive, determined, charming, devious, and a lot of fun!

If you're interested in a GSD puppy I think finding a good breeder is key. And then be VERY honest with them about what you're looking for, and what you can and can't live with. They will know their lines, and if they're producing the kind of dogs that would be a good fit for your home, or not.


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## gsdsar

I go back and forth on this question. I was once a first time dog owner. As an adult that is. And my first dog on my own was a GSD. She was a dream of a puppy and dog. WGSL. I never had any major issues. Could have been because I started right away working her, in SchH and the SAR. And I got full on into the working dog world. I will never know. 

Recently by friend got a GSD puppy from very strong working lines. This is her first GSD. But she has raised, and well, plenty of strong breeds, mainly Rottweilers or RottX. She was raised with dogs and was a vet tech for years. 

And this pup is super challenging. He is independent and has shown some resource guarding already. Never when I was with him. But 3-4 times he has shown pretty scary behavior. She and I worked on the "trade up game" when I was visiting and that seems to be taking the edge off and I think she will be able to extinguish the issue. But this is a smart driven puppy. I warned her, a lot. I hope she makes it to the other side. 

I think many people think, I have had/raised Rottweilers, Doberman, other breeds and I can do this. But a good GSD is a different animal. Very different. 

I try to just be honest in expectations. I don't sugar coat how tough they are as youngsters. 

But everyone needs their first dog, and everyone gets their first GSD. As a rescue volunteer we get lots of first timers and I advocate for them. We have the extended support in the rescue to help. But it's a balance between finding them the right dog and being a resource when they run into issues.


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## Cassidy's Mom

gsdsar said:


> And this pup is super challenging. He is independent and has shown some resource guarding already. Never when I was with him. But 3-4 times he has shown pretty scary behavior. *She and I worked on the "trade up game" when I was visiting* and that seems to be taking the edge off and I think she will be able to extinguish the issue.


This is something I do routinely with a new puppy as a preventative, and so far it's always worked for me. Rather than waiting for a potential guarding issue to crop up and have to deal with it later, I do trading games proactively. Of the GSDs we've had, Halo is probably the only one who might have become a resource guarder if left unchecked. But because I did SO much work with her right from the very beginning, including both trading games and tons of impulse control stuff, she's the one dog who will bring me a bone to hold for her while she chews, or she'll come to me with a ball so I can take it away from her and give it back before she goes away and plays with it. Those are little games that she made up and initiates. 

I think if you start out with a puppy realizing that you have no idea what problems you may encounter along the way and do what you can to prevent them before they ever begin, it can make a huge difference in the long run. I never take food away from my dogs after I give it to them, but I can give them a pat on the side as I walk by while they're eating, or put my hand in the bowl to drop something yummy in it, and they're totally fine with that because they trust me.


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## LuvShepherds

gsdsar said:


> I go back and forth on this question. I was once a first time dog owner. As an adult that is. And my first dog on my own was a GSD. She was a dream of a puppy and dog. WGSL. I never had any major issues. Could have been because I started right away working her, in SchH and the SAR. And I got full on into the working dog world. I will never know.
> 
> Recently by friend got a GSD puppy from very strong working lines. This is her first GSD. But she has raised, and well, plenty of strong breeds, mainly Rottweilers or RottX. She was raised with dogs and was a vet tech for years.
> 
> And this pup is super challenging. He is independent and has shown some resource guarding already. Never when I was with him. But 3-4 times he has shown pretty scary behavior. She and I worked on the "trade up game" when I was visiting and that seems to be taking the edge off and I think she will be able to extinguish the issue. But this is a smart driven puppy. I warned her, a lot. I hope she makes it to the other side.
> 
> I think many people think, I have had/raised Rottweilers, Doberman, other breeds and I can do this. But a good GSD is a different animal. Very different.
> 
> I try to just be honest in expectations. I don't sugar coat how tough they are as youngsters.
> 
> But everyone needs their first dog, and everyone gets their first GSD. As a rescue volunteer we get lots of first timers and I advocate for them. We have the extended support in the rescue to help. But it's a balance between finding them the right dog and being a resource when they run into issues.


It depends on three things. The dog's genetics and breeding, the owner/handler's abilities, and matching the right dog with the right owner. My first purebred GSD as an adult was a high prey drive WGSL with a sociable personality. She wanted to chase anything that moved and could not easily be distracted, but she was very good with people and small children. I had small children and a houseful of friends, so I needed a dog that could go anywhere and tolerate a lot of traffic and commotion. We had a short landshark period, and then she settled in. It still took three years before she grew into her maturity and possibilities. We did not get her at 8 weeks. She was a breeder hold back to evaluate for show, but by 3 months didn't have the lines, so we bought her. By the time we got her, she was already socialized and partially trained. We fostered and rescued many dogs between that first puppy and my newest WL dog. Some were young puppies. For all my experience with prey drive, his drive is different with a whole new type of challenges. He is much more dog than I expected, but his personality is great and we are working on everything else. He is scary smart, but also very resistant, so we take a few steps ahead and then stall. Training is taking much longer than I planned. He needs a lot of exercise and mental stimulation. He gets bored doing the same thing over and over again, so I need to do different things with him all the time. My next dog is going to be a couch potato to mellow out the pack. My older dog is a rescue with strong herding drive. They could use a calm, mellow lazy dog. I'm thinking about it.


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## gsdsar

Cassidy's Mom said:


> gsdsar said:
> 
> 
> 
> And this pup is super challenging. He is independent and has shown some resource guarding already. Never when I was with him. But 3-4 times he has shown pretty scary behavior. *She and I worked on the "trade up game" when I was visiting* and that seems to be taking the edge off and I think she will be able to extinguish the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> This is something I do routinely with a new puppy as a preventative, and so far it's always worked for me. Rather than waiting for a potential guarding issue to crop up and have to deal with it later, I do trading games proactively. Of the GSDs we've had, Halo is probably the only one who might have become a resource guarder if left unchecked. But because I did SO much work with her right from the very beginning, including both trading games and tons of impulse control stuff, she's the one dog who will bring me a bone to hold for her while she chews, or she'll come to me with a ball so I can take it away from her and give it back before she goes away and plays with it. Those are little games that she made up and initiates.
> 
> I think if you start out with a puppy realizing that you have no idea what problems you may encounter along the way and do what you can to prevent them before they ever begin, it can make a huge difference in the long run. I never take food away from my dogs after I give it to them, but I can give them a pat on the side as I walk by while they're eating, or put my hand in the bowl to drop something yummy in it, and they're totally fine with that because they trust me.
Click to expand...

I agree. I do the same. It's second nature to me. 

But not to her. The first incident, I was there (stayed at her house while the family, including puppy, went to soccer game of son). She told me about it when they got home. 

We tried to replicate the item (an empty plastic bottle). He did not repeat the behavior. She was disappointed I did not get to see it, I was happy. Had to explain WHY I did not want to see it. The more he practices that behavior the worse it is. 

She also has young boys, who leave stuff EVERYWHERE! So the pup gets constant attention to get things away from him. And sometimes it's a quick issue, but it's not always easy for her to do a " trade up".

But, she is smart( my friend) and she told me about a recent issue where he got all tense around a bone and she was easily able to call him off and trade up. So she gets it. Her 8 and 5 yo are the concern. Fingers crossed. Resource guarding has never been an issue for any of my dogs. And most likely would not be with this puppy. But different homes, different outcomes.


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## dawnl

Oh this is such a great place to ask and find answers to questions i'm sure most GSD owners have. They are such a great breed. If you put the time and effort into them. One of the things Sasha does that is so cute and funny and probably why I treat her like a child. When she wants to go outside she will sit in front of me actually staring me down and waits for me to say what do you want, when she wants to go outside she does a combination of things. She gives me her paw (this has a few meanings) will look directly into my eyes then look outside and she does this a couple of times not necessarily in quick succession and then give me her paw again. I think this is one of the rearly special things about GSD's they actually talk to you. In sign language (that you have to learn to pick up) but still, and the tilting of the head. When you put the time in they give you back 3 times as much as you give them.

Enjoy your journey.


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## MissChloe

dawnl said:


> Oh this is such a great place to ask and find answers to questions i'm sure most GSD owners have. They are such a great breed. If you put the time and effort into them. One of the things Sasha does that is so cute and funny and probably why I treat her like a child. When she wants to go outside she will sit in front of me actually staring me down and waits for me to say what do you want, when she wants to go outside she does a combination of things. She gives me her paw (this has a few meanings) will look directly into my eyes then look outside and she does this a couple of times not necessarily in quick succession and then give me her paw again. I think this is one of the rearly special things about GSD's they actually talk to you. In sign language (that you have to learn to pick up) but still, and the tilting of the head. When you put the time in they give you back 3 times as much as you give them.
> 
> Enjoy your journey.


I really appreciate how members take the time to reply in detail. There are topics here that are covered in more depth than I've read anywhere else. Sasha sounds lovely and so smart. I've heard the same kind of sentiment from another GSD person I met. Miss Chloe was also expressive which is part of the reason I'm interested in GSDs. I'd wondered if that was the lab part of her but Mr B communicates in a different way. Hard to explain but true. It's nice to explore the world of GSDs at a leisurely pace. It's more of a "what if" line of thoughts for now.

Thanks, *Cassidy's Mom* for sharing what all your GSDs were/are like. It's a good snapshot of the range of personalities within a breed.

*rfra*, I tend to be optimistic about what I think I'll do with my dogs before I get them. If I aim for 80% of my good intentions, that would be about right.


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## maxtmill

DutchKarin said:


> I think the reason why it isn't a good first time dog is that when a GSD is poorly bred, poorly socialized, not trained, the problems have more consequences. The protection breeds were bred to be confident and use their mouths to make things happen. So the risk is increased that if you don't take it seriously you will have a dog that might be dog or human aggressive. If border collie is poorly trained, etc, you will have a dog that doesn't stop moving and probably runs away to find someone more suitable to them. A poorly trained labrador, etc... will run around like a crazy man and swim in every mud puddle within a mile. A poorly trained poodle... you get the point.
> 
> The risk and liability is greater I think. I also think training and handling a confident and smart dog takes consistency, clarity and structure that humans, as we project fur baby stuff, are not always that good at. Then we get posts on here that say things like, "he is deliberately defiant."
> 
> Morning Blab. Have a good day everyone.


Yes, I agree with much of what you are saying. People tend to anthropormorphize animals. I never think of my dogs as fur babies, just my very best friends and companions.


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## maxtmill

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is something I do routinely with a new puppy as a preventative, and so far it's always worked for me. Rather than waiting for a potential guarding issue to crop up and have to deal with it later, I do trading games proactively. Of the GSDs we've had, Halo is probably the only one who might have become a resource guarder if left unchecked. But because I did SO much work with her right from the very beginning, including both trading games and tons of impulse control stuff, she's the one dog who will bring me a bone to hold for her while she chews, or she'll come to me with a ball so I can take it away from her and give it back before she goes away and plays with it. Those are little games that she made up and initiates.
> 
> I think if you start out with a puppy realizing that you have no idea what problems you may encounter along the way and do what you can to prevent them before they ever begin, it can make a huge difference in the long run. I never take food away from my dogs after I give it to them, but I can give them a pat on the side as I walk by while they're eating, or put my hand in the bowl to drop something yummy in it, and they're totally fine with that because they trust me.


I love the idea of trading up! Would you explain it a bit Further? I have a horrible resource guarding old dog right now.


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## backwoodswalker

This is a very helpful thread to read as someone who is researching their first dog as an independent adult. 

Thanks to everyone who has written such thought provoking and wise posts. I will be keeping a close eye on this one.


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## Cassidy's Mom

maxtmill said:


> I love the idea of trading up! Would you explain it a bit Further? I have a horrible resource guarding old dog right now.


I think if you already have a guarder you need to be very careful. It's going to be a slow, trust building thing, which can take some time. As I said, once I give my dogs something, it's theirs. They can voluntarily give it back (in a game, for example), but I'm not going to take it by force. Many people think that taking things away from their dogs routinely and then giving them back will help the dog learn that it's okay, and sometimes, with some dogs that works just fine. But the potential for blowback with that method is huge because it can actually trigger the opposite response, where the dog doesn't trust that at any time you may just randomly snatch away something it values! 

As I mentioned, I also do impulse control stuff from the beginning. Even a young puppy can hold a sit for a fraction of a second while you put down the food bowl on the floor, and then release it to eat. I started that when my dogs were young puppies, very easy at first and then gradually more challenging. In this photo my husband has put Halo's dinner on the floor and she's sitting and watching him, waiting for the "okay" to eat it: 










In the early stages, the puppy is further from me and the bowl, so I can quickly stand back up if puppy breaks the sit and tries to get the food. Once puppy sits, I start to lower the bowl again. I do this as many times as necessary, until the puppy realizes that the way to get meals is to wait until the bowl is on the floor and I release them. Eventually, I can be several feet away with the bowl right next to the pup, and they will not eat until I say so. I own the food until I say it's the dog's. 

I spent time with her every day doing this impulse control game by Susan Garrett, a well known agility trainer and competitor: 






It's basically a default "leave it" since you never actually tell the dog anything, it learns that the way to get the food is to ignore the food. I add eye contact, the dog has to look at me. These eventually become very strong default behaviors, where my dogs routinely sit and look at me, awaiting permission to proceed, without me having to nag them about it. I own what's in my hand until I say it's the dog's. 

Same thing with trading games. If you play with tug toys, you maintain possession of the toy by continuing to hold onto it. Have the dog "out" the toy (I start training this by putting a small piece of yummy, smelly food right at the dog's nose), when the dog drops the tug to each the treat, I mark it ("yes!"), and then we play tug some more. I do this with bones too, and balls, and any other of the dog's toys. Gotta go for now, I can expand more later.


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## Heracles

our gsd was our first, and we had our daughter with him till she was 8. He passed away right before turinig 11. He was an amazing dog. Its been a few years now since we lost our herc. We are starting to think about another one. It hurts losing these guys... too much..


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## selzer

I think it is more the other way around: First time owners might be a bad choice for a GSD. It sounds like the same thing but it's not. The first way sounds like the breed is somehow defective/unsuitable for new owners. The second method kind of suggests new owners can be unsuited to GSDs. And they can be. 

We don't throw a kid into the deep end to learn to swim, or give a kid a 12 speed racing bike for their first bicycle. Others prefer to sink or swim and start out rafting in the rapids. 

GSDs are really more of a middle of the road dog. Others would put them higher on the list in requirements for owners. [Think PetsMart fish section: beginner, intermediate, expert, and the like.] But there are dogs that are higher maintenance, or higher energy, or more dangerous, or a lot tougher to train. Evenso, GSDs are formidable dogs. While they tend to be easy to train, they can take advantage of push-overs. And, if they are in the wrong hands, they can develop bad habits, and have serious consequences. 

Personally, I think they are a great dog for a beginner, if you have the right beginner. I don't care how many Pippy dogs (English Setters) you have raised, it probably will not make you a better candidate for a GSD. 

If you told me you owned a beagle or an Irish Setter before, I'd be more nervous about (ask a lot more questions) your taking on a GSD, than if you said you owned Rottweilers or even border collies.


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