# Electronic Training Collars



## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

What is everybody's opinion on Electronic training collars, or e-collars or shock collars, as they're also known? Do you think they're an acceptable training method? In what situation, if any, would you use one on your dog? If you do use one, do you consider it a temporary training tool, or something you will continually use to deal with the problem?

O.K., now for my take. I've never used an electronic collar. I'm really not a fan. I would prefer just about any other training method to deal with a behavioural issue, and would exhaust all other options before ever considering one. Do I think there is ever a time when using one would be acceptable? Yes, in incidences where the behavior of the dog was putting it in potentially life threatening situations, and other training methods had not worked, I could see someone resorting to an e-collar. Personally, I think a lot of times, they are used out of laziness, in order to avoid the time and effort necessary to effectively train the dog with less extreme measures. Me, I'll put my money on consistent NILIF to do the job with just almost any problem almost every time. I think a lot of the problems dogs have aren't because of the dog, but because of either a lack of a responible environnemt or lack of necessary training.

So what do y'all think? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


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## dragon181 (Dec 12, 2005)

wow first time i'm first in it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/34_rotflmao.gif

i never used the shoke collar but i know the e-collars
e-collars as long as they coming from a good company and were selected for the dog for spesific use and the dog response good to it i don't see any problem.
the e-collars always sound so horrible, how can me electric our on babeys?
it isn't as bad as people think, isn't hurt nly take attantion as prong collars
anyway i prefer using many other things before the e-collar but i don't clasiffy it as horrible and abusev


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I used to believe they were cruel too, but now that I have them and know how they work, it is just like the Prong collar. People just hate them by their looks, but WE (who use them) know they are a GREAT tool if used the right way. I now see the e-collars the same way.
I own a Tritronic 2 dogs e-collars that I use on my 2 males. I only used them for off-leash control while we are hiking. I do not use them for regular obedience.
I was tired of loosing my dogs to deer or other critters and the e-collar has worked miracles in that department. I can now enjoy my hikes without worrying that my dogs are going to take off on me and get hurt. As I mentioned in the other thread, my dogs were properly trained for 2 weeks with the e-collars before I began using them in our hikes. I think the training is EXTREMELY important. You cannot and should not take them off the box and start using them on your dog(s). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/30_nono.gif Recently my two boys were within feet from a whole herd of deer and they stayed with me, it was the most satisfactory thing ever! I praised the heck out of them for the rest of our hike. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/08_rolleyes.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif Didn't even have to use the e-collars, in fact, I hardly use them on our hikes any more (they do wear them though just in case). As soon as I say HERE, they are with me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The e-collar is a tool. In and of itself it is not cruel or abusive or good or bad. Just like all training tools it depends on the person with the transmitter (or at the end of the leash). I have seen them abused, but I have also seen slip collars, pinch collars, leashes, hands, feet, etc abused. I have also seen them be used correctly and be a God-send for some handlers and dogs. 

Yes, I use one. I have had dogs that actually responded much better to an e-collar than any type of physical or verbal correction. They are excellent for distance control, crittering, chasing deer, correcting some unwanted behaviors that could be dangerous to the dog. I have also found the collar excellent for some exercises in obedience and can be very helpful when fine tuning in protection.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Do I think they are a good tool?

Yes.

Do I think they sare ometimes over-used by lazy-a**ed people who don't want to take the time to train their dogs?

Yes.

Do I think there are right and wrong reasons to use them?

You betcha. Keep a dog from chasing animals (and potentially getting lost, hit by a car or injurying another animal, not to mention that running deer is illegal in many states) - that's a perfectly good reason. Keeping a dog from chewing your socks, laying on the couch or barking to come in - not good reasons.

I own one and have used it to try to teach a foster dog not to jump fences. Even on it's highest setting - which produced a very pronounced Yelp from the dog - she went over the fence anyway. The reward of being outside the fence was worth the pain she knew she was going to get.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I do NOT like them to cover up for 'lazy' owners/trainers who fail to take the longer/harder road to FIRST properly train their dogs with classes/instructors/time/socialization............................ 

Bark collars I find, in general, to really tend to piss me off. Because not only is (in my opinion) many owners too LAZY to take the time to be with their dogs when they are barking to teach them to stop. I also feel many of these people join it to the 'too lazy to walk/exercise/train' their dogs and instead expect their dogs to do it on their own in their large fenced in back yard.

These dogs do NOT get socialized and instead just get to fence protective, or bored and bark their heads off. And these dogs do NOT exercise themselves except when they are crazed and misbehaving. And these dogs are NOT learning anything except what they want to do, when they want to do it, and how they want to do it. No guidance or help from the others in their pack. 

Not that possibly there aren't some very narrow instances that a bark collar could be resorted to, but the vast majority of times people use them, just spending some time and effort teaching your dog not to bark and not leaving them ALONE to bark would do much better.

As for general training with an OBEDIENCE training e-collar, I also see a use for them and do use them. But, once again, they are NOT a replacement to be used as a quick easy way to train INSTEAD of going to classes/instructor/working with/spending time/training training training/ WITH YOUR DOG. I use the collar in conjunction with a trainer to make sure I do it properly and do NOT mis-use it. It's the very last training tool I go to on my training scale and, frankly, it is for life and death training so my dogs will 'come' to me and NOT continue to chase the deer/cat/racoon across the road. And the point of using the collar properly is, frankly, you rarely if ever have to activate the collar because you DO have such a good base down already for training and the dog ABSOLUTELY 100% understands when and why the collar is activitated and so reacts so fast when you call you don't even get the command out. 

Think the problem with the e-collar is the problem with so much training, people want it to be fast, at home, cheap, easy, and take no time. Go to a professional to train my dog? NO WAY, I can do if myself. Learn to use a clicker? Too much to hold and my dog is supposed to be learning new things, not ME!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/16_shrug.gif Use treats! Are you kidding? My dog is going to listen to me CAUSE I TOLD HIM TO!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/32_poke.gif
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/10_eek.gif


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

In saving an otherwise unsavable dog e-collar may be only answer.I know of two cases where eventual outcome was euthanasia,three where dog was surrendered outcome unknown and two where dedicated owners where able to continue with dog.I have VERY mixed feelings about using them and believe it is only a TEMPORARY quick fix of a BAD problem that actually needs aggressive follow-up and dedication and especially devotion to solving a problem that requires extensive time.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I think the underlying topic here that needs to be addressed is Training Ethics and what it means. A lot of tools are short cuts - they miss building the relationship and they can be totally misused - which is what I would characterize some of what I've been seeing on recebt postings regarding e-collars.
I've used many tools (now I'm much more into positive training) - sometimes I've used them responsibly and sometimes I've used them in a way I don't think I should - as a shortcut. 
Frankly, I think we are in a bad position to be advising people on compulsion training via the internet. We don't personally know the trainer or the dogs and we could be doing a lot of harm. 
Life threatening behavior needs to be extinguished quickly and may justify zapper collars. That your dog behaves like a dog by barking at passers by or barking because you have ignored his reasonable request doesn't. 

What should the first rule of training be? 
- Do no harm?
- Build a solid relationship?
- For the good of the dog?
? What should our crede of training be ?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I, too had strong negative opinions about e-collars until I used one for crittering - -- -- serious "dog is going to get killed if I don't fix this game chasing type crittering" --- --- by a dog that would take a full hit off a fully charged cattle fence while in pursuit of the game and ignore it. 

The technique was low stim and was Lou Castle's which requires attention to detail and technique. TIMING was everything. The stim was EXTREMELY low - not even unpleasant to my own neck - a mere tingle. In these conditions the dog is clear in the head. Can I say this was a dog for whom several months of redirection did not work? A dog for whom running to the end of a line with a prong did not help? 2 sessions with the e-collar and I have a dog who can walk among farm animals, walk right up to them without fear, but quench her own desire to chase them. She still corrects herself and has not worn the collar at the farm for 2 years.

I don't put them in the same class with compulsion - low stim techniques that is. In compulsion you wait for the dog to make a mistake then correct it so they only learn one way and everything else is bad - it creates a dog scared to offer behaviors. I am just not seeing this happen with this technique. I do see that the training sessions need to be much shorter and focused than they do with purely motivational training. But I see a dog who is happy when the collar comes out because she knows we are training, and does not shy from it.

Do I think it is a tool that can be misused - you betcha !!but I have personally seen more abuse with halti's and gentle leaders than with e-collars. The e-collar is simply another tool. You can build a house with a hammer and you can also smash in a skull. 


I think most of the advocates are saying that you don't get the how to's from the internet you need to go to someone who really knows what they are doing for help. The articles give insight on how it works (like any other training articles on all sorts of techniques both positive and negative) I would say the SAME thing about diagnosing aggression over the internet or any other training techniques. 

The interent is a good place to connect with people and explore ideas. It is not a good place to get the training you can get one on one with a good teacher.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

There are times and circumstances to use an Ecollar but more times than not for the ole basic pet training I do not feel there is a need for them. As just about everyone here has stated there ARE times to use them, however, keep in mind how many years the people here have been training.

Most of the people who have replied here have trained dogs to do a little more than come when called and to sit and down. Schutzhund, SAR, Agility, OB and Tracking- these people have been through EXTENSIVE training classes (group and private as well). They have put a lot of time and effort into training their dogs and they use the ecollar for proofing what the dog has ALREADY learned and/or in life threatening situations for the dog (escaping fences, crittering....). All of these are good reasons for using an ecollar. Not only to they have extensive training they have the people around them to teach the HUMAN how to use the equipment PROPERLY.

For the person whose dog is in the back yard barking and they are too lazy to get off the internet or turn off the TV and go play or even TRAIN their dog properly; for that person to sit there and zap the crap out of the dog- no I do not think they should be used. I personally wish they were a little harder to buy than the old basic flat buckle collar and a leash. Too many people use them as a cop out, if they would take the same amount of money they spent on the collar and go to a class or two and develop a bond and understanding of their family member they would be a lot further ahead and 99.9% of the time- their dog would be sooooo much happier.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

*nods my head at middleofnowhere's post*

In my opinion, there is just not much reason to use an e-collar. There should be an extreme need to fix something life threatening before you would resort using electric shock on an animal you supposedly "love". I can't condone using a shock collar for general obedience training or even proofing for competition - the ribbon just doesn't mean that much to me. You really jeopardize your relationship with your dog when you resort to things like shock.

I've trained dogs to utility titles (directed retrieves, scent discrimination, directed jumping, etc.) and have never had to use a shock collar. My dogs know multitudes of tricks and I haven't had to use a shock collar. I can (mostly) trust four of the five dogs off-leash and I haven't used a shock collar. I'm not saying I never would, but I really have to weigh the reasons why before I use one. Teaching my youngest dog to not go after moose might be one use - but until I have the opportunity to do some training around moose I can't justify using it. 

I lose all respect for a trainer when they use shock as a shortcut. It's not that I don't believe in corrections, I just don't believe in extremes. And yes, I have a shock collar here - and yes, I've felt the lowest level and used the collar sparingly at one point. 

And like the prong collar, if a person is going to use shock then they should acknowledge that the reason it works is that it causes pain. Sugar-coating it by saying "it just causes a little discomfort" is only making the person feel better. I would be much more comfortable with the concept of a shock collar if the person got shocked every time they used it on the dog - then they might use it sparingly and only when absolutely necessary.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Gunnermom (Feb 4, 2005)

I've been debating about trying one. I've never liked them either. I've printed out all the information on Lou Castle's website to try to learn about it first. IF I decide to purchase one, it will be only for off-leash control/hikes, not for any OB training. I don't consider myself a lazy trainer. We take lots of walks and go to training 1-3 times/week. BUT there are times that he is off-leash and if he sees a deer/bunny/dog, I am not 100% convinced he will listen to me. IF I use it, it will be for my piece of mind & his safety while off-leash


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

All I would say about using it for game chasing is get someone to help you with the crittering technique UP FRONT not as a correction for chasing after the dog has gone throught the momentary stare phase (my dog actually stared, froze and pointed like a pointer, then chased)

My dogs do NOT wear the collar in he woods - or very much at all to be honest, (yes, many folks advocate/have them on the dogs all the time). However, I was still able to recall her after she stumbled on a group a 4 deer that took off right in front of her.

If you don't do the preliminary training, once the prey drive is engaged you might have to give a terribly harsh correction - one that could either shut down the dog, or the dog will power through it, or displace aggression due to pain. I have seen this done and it is NOT something I EVER want to see again.


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## dragon181 (Dec 12, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
I do NOT like them to cover up for 'lazy' owners/trainers who fail to take the longer/harder road to FIRST properly train their dogs with classes/instructors/time/socialization............................ 

[/ QUOTE ]

i would need to disagre with you on this
owners to use this and prongs or any other thing they can think of to make it easy for them and make it fast
BUT not all the dogs like that and not all the trainers and owners.
when a Lotar dog, maybe a serius PP dog or any other protection dog sport or heavy duty work with such things it's for sure NOT to make it easy it's to make it safe 
the toll is what he is depending in which hands, for what and on which dog, you can make it really bad or really good


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

This is the only time I wished I had one...when the dog split to chase deer. Once they're hunting and off to the races, and can't hear you for all the prey drive coursing thru their brains- THAT's when a remote with a red button would be indespensible. It takes only a few seconds to be a distant crash in the woods, and until we can fly, this might be the best option, especially if the dog can't find his way back to you once the chase is over. 
Never have used one though.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
This is the only time I wished I had one...when the dog split to chase deer. Once they're hunting and off to the races, and can't hear you for all the prey drive coursing thru their brains- THAT's when a remote with a red button would be indespensible. It takes only a few seconds to be a distant crash in the woods, and until we can fly, this might be the best option, especially if the dog can't find his way back to you once the chase is over. 
Never have used one though. 

[/ QUOTE ]

......And THAT is how most people try to use the things and it does not always work like you think it may. A high shock to a dog not TRAINED using the ecollar may have unintended consequences!. 

Having seen plenty of dogs not PRETRAINED against crittering run deer, you may as well lay your coat on the ground and come back the next day to get the dog.


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## kmonster (Jul 2, 2005)

the trainer i use explained the e-collar to me as the equivalent of a tap on the shoulder. it is to get the dog's attention. it is NOT to hurt the dog. and the buzz is not a 'punishment' - not like a leash correction, but something that accompanies both commands and corrections. i use one with my dog when we are doing off-leash jogs or hikes, and we used it some on-lead in training exercises where she is some distance away from me. on its scale of 1 to 8 (8 being the highest shock), she's usually on a 2 or 3, the most she has ever been up to is a 5, and that involved critter chasing.

i would Never, never, never ever suggest anybody use one without first receiving some serious supervision by a professional trainer. like anything else, it can be abused. now, for those folks who do abuse it because they're lazy, stupid, or just plain mean, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/09_mad.gif i'm not opposed to cranking up the collar on their...well, nevermind.


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

My ethics for using the e-collar is; does it benefit the dog? Dog off lead AND under control is much better off than on lead all the time. Off-leash exercise can't be beat and many dogs only have that opportunity in public or wild places. A missed recall can have dire consequences, so if you can't be sure with other training methods, then I'd use an e-collar rather than keeping the dog on lead forever.
From the previous thread on this, it sounds like all or most who use it on this board are using it for the same reason.
As for professionals, it was a professional who blasted my dog. The guy had certificates all over his wall (legitimate) of one of the top e-collar training schools in America. He used an e-collar to train the dog to do everything, and his dog looked skittish (he told me it was a rescue) but in hindsight, the dog showed hallmarks of intensive e-collar training.
Needless to say, I researched on the web, and trained on my own, backing off and taking things very slowly. Professionals come in all flavours. Just a warning


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

kaslkaos has a good point about not all trainers being 'good'. Why it's important we have to do OUR research on the front end to make sure what we want, and the method we want to use to TRAIN our dog, is the same as what the trainer is doing.

The way I see the e-collar is there are 2 methods it can be used for. As a slamming correction AFTER the dog is doing something wrong (like the bark collar will do, and the way we CAN use a training collar). So say dog gets into trash again, we activate the collar to punish them so they will now avoid the trash can (hopefully). You don't need to read up on how to do this, you don't have to train your dog, this takes no time. Dog does something you don't like, you come down on the e-collar like the Wrath of God. Can end up with a fearful, timid and confused dog who is not sure when/where/how the next time God will again strike them down.

Or the way I prefer, and it seems most of us prefer, to use the collar. To have the dogs as an active participant in the LEARNING process, and the collar is just a tool we can use because there is no leash. THIS METHOD TAKES TIME TIME TIME TIME. And that's why owners mess it up because they instead try to have it be a quick fix, they scan the first page of directions and then immediately start it with their dog. You must already have the MONTHS of previous training in place so your dog absolutely knows the commands (for me it's the 'come' ) and is good in most all situation and when on leash does perfectly! You start at the LOWEST level (the point is not to PUNISH, but to remind them you still have a connection to them) and ONLY raise the level IF THEY CONTINUE TO CHOOSE TO IGNORE YOU. You start with the leash on (and the e-collar) so you can still guide them when they are learning the e-collar thing. 

What the e-collar is supposed to do, is remind the dogs to ALWAYS keep one ear on us and still obey us, EVEN WITHOUT THE LEASH. And, when you do this properly, eventually the dogs listen and obey us, off leash, EVEN WITHOUT the e-collar. You may have it on them still, but it's a 'just in case' thing. I rarely if EVER have to activate the collar. And that's the point. NOW my dogs listen to me, keep an eye on me, and obey. It's not about me having to constantly have to remind them by using it. It's that I don't have to use it BECAUSE THEY ARE NOW TRAINED AND PAY ATTENTION TO ME OFF LEASH. And not because they are fearful, or confused. But because, with the help of me reading up, watching the videos, purchasing a good collar (over $200) AND WORKING WITH A GOOD TRAINER, and being consistant consistant consistant, with the training.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
kaslkaos has a good point about not all trainers being 'good'. Why it's important we have to do OUR research on the front end to make sure what we want, and the method we want to use to TRAIN our dog, is the same as what the trainer is doing. 

[/ QUOTE ]

ABSOLUTELY AGREED!!!! And with your post as well. This is not an easier quicker route - just a different one. It is easier to make mistakes with ecollars than other methods.

I think you should become very familiar with dogs who have been trained under the method being proposed. Do you like what you see? Do you have doubts? Do the dogs seem to enjoy their commands or are they doing them only because they have to?

While I worked with Lou a lot on the phone it was only after working with teammates who had attended some of his seminars and seeing their dogs. 

Even they, however backed off using the collar for everything, particularly the detection and search work itself and none of our dogs actually works with a collar on.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

I think you can tell alot about a person when it comes to useing an e-collar. 

I have seen them used a lot, with good and not so good results, depends on the person useing it and the dog it is being used on, and why! 


Any collar that is being used on a dog is only as good as the trainer training the dog. IMO 

I don't think an e-collar is cruel, I think some people that use them are. I could wreck a dog with a flat collar for that matter. And, (not that I have tried one on) have you ever rubbed your feet or hands on the carpet and touched something and got a shock? Did you get electricuted? From my understanding that is about equal to the shock a dog gets from an e-collar, different stimulations though.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

[ QUOTE ]
And, (not that I have tried one on) have you ever rubbed your feet or hands on the carpet and touched something and got a shock? Did you get electricuted? From my understanding that is about equal to the shock a dog gets from an e-collar, different stimulations though. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually at low stim it is more like the things a chiropractor puts on your back to loosen the muscles (the electrodes) IF you have had that experience. Tingly. The carpet zap my be what a high stim nick feels like - never tried THAT one.

And at the setting just above being able to detect it. And I have put the darned thing on my neck just behind my ears where the skin is more sensitive than the forearm.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

WOW /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/10_eek.gif, alright Nancy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/18_thumb.gif! 

I wonder if they make those to train people? Wouldn't that be a lot easer, lol...


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## annied23 (May 21, 2006)

Hi What e-collar do you recommend? My dog loves to put up those hackles and bark at other dogs. He is not a fighter.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Not sure I would use an e-collar for this without serious one on one guidance or even at all. Bad timing with an ecollar can escalate or create dog agression as the dog associates the stim with the other dog -- there is a real fine balance with this issue.

This, to me, sounds more like a job for desensitization techniques - and you can find plenty about dealing with fearful dogs in other threads.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am an advocate for e-collars for training in several aspects. 

The first, as mentioned many times in this thread, is "crittering" - or any type of livestock chasing. I have horses, and have had a couple incidents where dogs have decided it is great fun to chase the horses. Totally unacceptable. Dogs get kicked. Horses can get hurt. 

Another reason I advocate e-collars is that with a particularly strong or hard dog, a physical correction often can increase the fight drive of the dog. I have a dog who would not "out". That dog has some nerve damage caused by physical corrections done by a very strong man. He has had numerous tests and x-rays to determine why he will pick up a back leg and scream in pain - always elicited by a turn and twist of the head - or being driven by a less than physically skillful helper who cannot get him in the pocket and up. An e-collar is actually much safer than physically fighting with the dog. You cannot cause true physiological long term damage to his neck and spine with an e-collar.

I have also used it to correct inappropriate behavior and dominating posturing between 2 females. I will not use it on the two I have now as I do not believe it will help. Only careful monitoring and never letting them interact is safe.

I do not believe in it for force tracking. Or any short cuts in training. Great tool for right reasons and in skilled hands.

Lee


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## JulieB (Apr 19, 2006)

I love the e-collar. I agree what's being said. It's not the tool, it's whose hand it's in.

The main thing I like about the collar is you can apply a correction without getting emotionally involved. There is no place for anger in a correction. Once you add anger, it's punishment and that's not right IMO. It's so much easier for me to repeat a command and press a button calmly then try and yank a long line.. 
I also have never personally given my dog a stim that I haven't put on myself first /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif Call me crazy, but I want to know what they are getting. However, it's true I haven't put it around my neck.. 
To repeat it, it doesn't matter what you use, it's how you use it.


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

I am so glad that this topic is being brought up to date. I ordered one on my trainer's advice last March because of Buddy's jumping the fence. 'Last resort says the directions' and I chickened out.

After a few more jumps I re-ordered it back and it arrived on Monday still sitting in the box. I have done all training possible on Buddy but he will jump! and I have used a tie-out in the front. 

I will now take it out of the box, play the video and read it carefully. The man at Tritonics said to call him anytime if I had questions. My trainer is out of state and not available but at least I will have the 7 day 'get used to wearing it' period is over. I am anxious to see other posts how people had positive results. He told me to test it in my hand to know how it feels.

~Anne


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

You will be using it when you are out WITH Buddy, right? So you aren't actually training him not to jump the fence. But to 'come' when he runs to it and before he jumps over, right?

To be out with the dog, and train a 100% reliable 'come' is an amazing thing. REALLY make sure you read the directions, watch the video, do NOT make the dog 'collar smart' (means that collar is on him 100% of the time every time he's outdoors for MONTHS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These sites are a must for you to read:

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/rffintro.html

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/rffstart.html

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/rffcome.html

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/obed.htm#elec (has all the articles).

IF you do this right, truly understand the philosophy and are absolutely consistant. The point is your dog 'gets it' so quickly you RARELY have to activate the collar AT ALL or for more than a brief instance. And that's why/when the collar is such a 'miracle'. Not because you ARE using it all the time, but because you don't have to.


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

Maggie,

I am sorry that I did not see your links and information until tonight.

After reading the lit and watching video, etc., I returned the collar today. I do not think that we have that much of a need for it. Buddy is calming down and I think that all will be fine.

Thank you!!

~Anne


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

I am not a fan and never will be, I cannot see the point. I have never met a dog as difficult as my own and if I can get her trained to the point she is now w/o the use of such a device than I believe most people could train w/o it.I suppose there are very rare cases when it could be used as a last resort, I would never consider it.


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

I do not condemn them by any means. There are many testimonials of wonderful success with them.

Buddy has been OB training for two years since I adopted this 'stray' at the shelter. He has done exceptionally well except to jump the fence after a cat or some other lure that might walk by. Solution: A tie-out (supervised!) in the front yard, free in the house and free in the back.

When dog walkers pass by after work, close the front door!
He seems to be mellowing out now and getting my msg!

Last night was interesting - he is allowed to carry my slippers around since he no longer chews them. But his saliva can soak them and I was ready to wear them last night.
He did not want me to have it and gave me the 'look'. In the past I would have argued with a NO but followed Milan's teaching. I sat down and held one end of the slipper with his holding the other until he gave in after about five minutes. No pulling, arguing, I was patient and waited him out. It was great!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/34_rotflmao.gif

He listened for me in my gf's woodsy back yard on Friday and checked back for me! YAY! But we both agreed that he would tolerate the shock for the chase of a cat! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/10_eek.gif

I would not let him run free in the woods without fence or on the beach. Not all other dogs running off leash are well mannered anyway so our situation does not warrant the e-collar. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/24_hello.gif


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

I had put a call into my K-9 Trainer leaving a message early last week asking if he does work with e-collars. Seeing this on his site now I can figure why he did not return my call! 

[ QUOTE ]
E-Collars should only be used in extreme cases of disobedience and should never be used when there is aggression towards other animals or people. An E-Collar is a last resort training effort and never a foundational or fundamental tool for proper training. In the area of compulsion, a good trainer should always start with the lesser and build up to the greater. 

We believe that the focus of training should be to break the will of the dog not the spirit! 

[/ QUOTE ]


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

After this last post, I received an email from the K9 trainer's wife. The instructor does indeed work with e-collars and they tried to call me but did not get my answering machine!

They were going to set up a private session at my home on Friday (from out of town) but I informed them that I had returned the collar. 

There are not enough problems/lures/etc., to work with other than an occasional cat or a loose dog but he does not fight. Watching his body language and a correction if he starts to jump will do for now. It would have needed more than 1 single private session for the e-collar training. At 150.00 a pop! wow! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/10_eek.gif


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## deetsd (Jan 3, 2006)

We use electronic collars when walking / hiking for distance control and safety issues. There's lots of livestock around us and the collars are always there on a long walk just in case. Collars are much preferred to someone shooting one of my dogs on suspicion if they did happen to take off. That said, I DO NOT agree with using a shock collar if you're not educated on the use of one, and I've never used one for basic obedience. That's a no-brainer. Any training method is only as good or as humane as the trainer.


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

This is sort of OT but I decided to have the K-9 trainer come to my house on Friday morning and work with Buddy sans the e-collar. (as I mentioned, I have returned it)

Having to set up lures to get Buddy to jump the fence when overall it is quiet will be the challenge! A tad pricey for one hour but hopefully I will learn and gain from it and so will Buddy.


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## XXXLDOG (May 16, 2006)

*steps into the frying pan*

Ditto to everything MaggieRoseLee said

I think a lot of people are stuck with a picture in their mind ... of a dog with an ecollar on, an owner pushing the button yelling NO! NO! NO! while the dog cringes and jerks in pain and/or fear.

It's not like that folks ... it's all in HOW you use the collar .... I am not saying that there aren't some totally irresponsible or reckless owners out there that don't abuse the power of the ecollar, but if you understand the philosophy of how to use it positively it is really awesome to see them 'get it' ... and trust me, they get it quickly (as all GSD's do anyway) ... with massive tail wagging and looking for more ! 

On the other hand, if you use the collar as a negative punishment tool when they do something wrong or you want to stop them from doing something, especially aggression, it will go wrong ... that is almost guaranteed.

We use the Dogtra 200NCP Gold with Asa ... only after an hour in-home session with the trainer, where he showed US how to use it correctly first. Then three more in-home sessions with the trainer and Asa and us. the trainer is coming over next week for free .. to check on Asa and to fine tune our training. We also have an option to pay a few more dollars and can go to as many of his training classes at the local park as we want ... for the life of the dog. For free.


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## Gunnermom (Feb 4, 2005)

Where is the best place to order from? I've been debating about the Dogtra 200NCP.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think Lou Castle has the best price.

http://www.loucastle.com/about.htm

He does not advertise but I got mine from him and he is an authorized dealer. I have yet to find it lower than what I paid.


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## Gunnermom (Feb 4, 2005)

I did e-mail him a couple days ago asking about price and his opinions on that one, but I haven't heard back yet.


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

This is going to be ongoing! After reading your posts and gathering more information based on your experience I have also written to Lou Castle for price information. 

I am glad that I returned the e-collar that I had, there are many different types for diffent uses and I am not sure if mine was right for the situation. I hope that this thread keeps going, so much to learn.


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## XXXLDOG (May 16, 2006)

American Vet supplies has it for $184 at http://www.americanvetsupply.com/i_024DG-200NCPG_Dogtra+200+NCP+Gold+Collar+1+2+Mile.php

MightyPets has it for $189 with free shipping at
http://www.mightypets.com/product.asp?3=1366

On the Dogtra.com website you can look up dealers and I found well over 50 in the state of Wisconsin. Most of them are some kind chains named Gander Mountain and Mills fleet Farm.

Does that help ?

<M>


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## song032005 (Dec 4, 2005)

[ QUOTE ]
What is everybody's opinion on Electronic training collars, or e-collars or shock collars, as they're also known? Do you think they're an acceptable training method? In what situation, if any, would you use one on your dog? If you do use one, do you consider it a temporary training tool, or something you will continually use to deal with the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

i feel e-collars are a training tool that can be very effective if use properly.

i personally used it to stop dakota from digging in the yard including her crazy behavior of kicking dirt, spinning, and barking at it. but other things went into this training as well.

how i used it: i first learned the behavior she displays by watching, watching and more watching what she would do before, just before, just starting, and during. when ever dakota was just about to start i would give her a "no, leave it" and if she continued on with it i would press the botton for about 2 seconds (3rd setting up is where it got her attention, 1 and 2 did nothing) so what to do now? i played with her and played and played. i also never let her out in the yard without me again.

for about 5 days she would get a verbal correction of no leave it and from the e-collar if she started to try to dig or kick. at first a few times when we first went outside. then only once, and then not at all. a few days past and she tried again, but one more vebal correction and e-collar correction and she never did it again. problem solved. and i never had to put the collar on her after about 1 month and she never tried to pick the habit up again. she was happy with the changes and so was i.

i feel you should be there and not the hide and zap thing. the correction should be coming from you and i feel they should know that. i think that helps in the situation where people feel that it can be interpted as a kid or dog giving the correction, i think the verbal correction is key with ecollar training. my thought, no different than prong corrections, other than a different feeling.

my dh zapped himself with it to the highest level the thing would go which i never used more than level 3, this one had 9 settings. and he sad its not bad and he has been zapped by electric a number of times in his field of work.


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## nitros_mommy (Jun 26, 2006)

My friend uses a shock collar on her Basenji mix, but she felt it was a last resort. She owns a dog store and there are various dogs coming in and out all day, Logan is dog aggressive in SOME cases, and even after training, she finds that she can't follow through with the training sometimes. Usually she doesn't catch him or can't get to him at the right time. So she's using the collar for those cases.

Personally i am glad i don't have to use one. I am not sure that i would want to go that route myself. But i don't knock anyone for trying what they have to try to get the right results. As long as no dog is harmed that is.. and i know that the shock collars are only very mild.


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## annekca (May 7, 2006)

I was *this* close to ordering one - all I had to do was to send the check to Lou Castle for the order. But in the end thinking it is only used for 2 reasons neither which is primary.

One for training him to be off leash at the beach is not a priority, many other dogs are on leash too. Except for Carmel beach, there are leash laws on other beaches.

The other was cats out front - no matter how high the correction, Buddy will override it to jump the fence to chase the cat. He has a very high prey drive.

He is free in back and in the house - and on a tie-out in the front within a 3 ft cyclone fence for an hour or so a day. 

In all other ways, he is well trained and well behaved. I have spent 2 yrs working with him both class and private and I think that we can live with what we got. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/01_smile.gif


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## powerline (Jul 14, 2006)

Electroninc training collars are good if used properly. If someone doesnt know how to use it, dont go buy one and experiment. 
I learned to use one while attending a school for pro dog trainers. I had classroom supervision when I learned and would not recomend anyone trying to learn it without having an experienced trainer with him or her. 
In normal situations, I do not use an e-collar any stronger than what I would hold in my hand and use on myself. Considering a dogs pain tollerence is 10 times that of a humans, I just dont think a low shock that doesnt hurt me will hurt it. The thing to remember is a correction should be motivational, not eccessive.
I know people who train obedience and retrieving with them. They use a very low shock, if you even want to call it a shock at that level. Again the dosage the dogs get is motivational. And what is motivational for one dog may not be for another. 
The younger the puppy when training begins, the less correction it will need. If you train a puppy before problems arise, the less likely it is to develope them later. 
I hope I didnt leave anything out. If I did you and curse me for it. lmao


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## Zeusyfoot (Aug 17, 2006)

I have used an E-Collar for about a year and it is awesome. I do not use any more stimulation than what a pull on a leash would be. 
Where it comes in handy is when I go Backpacking in the woods for several nights, and he is off lead most of the time. 
I would like to add that it should not be a replacement for solid obedience.
The collar was designed for hunting dogs and if you get a chance to see a video of how it is used to direct a dog at a distance you would be amazed.


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## ali_gator (Jul 29, 2006)

We have a hunting dog that my husband uses an e collar on....we've been debating on whether or not to use it on our GSD......???


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Lots of hunting dogs have ecollars. Hunters see it not only as a way to control but also as a means to communicate. I think they're excellent if you need to communicate at long distances and if you're working through problems or you have a serious dog (not many will). I am a firm believer of "a tool for every dog and a dog for every tool" and, as someone earlier posted, "use the minimum required to get your dog to take heed."


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## krystaltiger (Oct 6, 2004)

Jordan has an ECollar and it has been a great tool in furthing her training. I think that if one is properly trainined to use one that they can be very beneficial.

Before we got this, she had been in a couple puppy classes and obeidience classes as well and this was recommneded to us by a certified trainer that I completely trust.

I admit I was very skeptical at first and the weekend long seminar/training was very emotional for me. it was emotional because I just want the best for jordan and for her to be a well rounded great dog.

We started last november, and use it a lot...not so much in hitting the button, but having it on when we go out and about. She is great with her recall now (well almost always unless the neighbors are out that she loves) she seems to catch on quicker, and seems pretty happy with all the freedom she thinks she has.

Personally I would never recommend it to anyone who hasn't had their dogs in other classes as they are great ways to bond with your dog and teach you how to work with them.

Nor would I recommend them with someone who is at their wits end in training - they may take it out on the dog and thats not fair.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

We use them, when needed. stim levels varied, but the dog needs to understand fully what is being asked, before you use the collar.

I have seen worse done to a dog prior to going on the training or trial field; flanking or jerking on the ear.


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## wrat (Sep 17, 2006)

Its a tool and tools are useful yet can be abused...we have never used one. not sure if we would or not..


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

WOW! I don't think I've ever seen a forum with such a large number of pet owners who were so knowledgeable about the Ecollar! I recognize several of you from private email and some from phone calls. 

Most of what follows is for those who oppose the use of the Ecollar because "it causes pain." Most of the Ecollar training that's done in this country is done only after behaviors have been taught with other methods. Those other methods can be +R or balanced training involving corrections. 

If done this way then Ecollar training often results in high levels of stim being used to overcome an high of the dog's drives, and may well result in pain being applied to the dog. 

I suggest a different way of using the Ecollar that has stim being applied at the level where the dog first perceives it and using it to train new behaviors or acting as if the dog didn't know the behaviors at all! This method begins by finding the level at which the dog first feels the stim. That's called the "working level" and is used for most all of the work that comes later. This stim is applied and the dog is guided or lured into the proper behavior at which time the stim is shut off. The dog learns that his behavior is responsible for making the stim start and stop as well. 

The question of pain is a relative one. We all realize that pain is a continuum, ranging from the highest level, "I can't stand than for another second!" to a level of discomfort that's merely uncomfortable, "It's chilly, I think I need a sweater." Using the Ecollar as I do, allows it to be used at the latter level. Articles explaining this can be found on my website. 

As far as building a "relationship" with the dog; I think that teaching the recall with the tool is a great way to do that. The dog learns that the mere presence of the handler bring comfort and safety. I like to introduce as little conflict into my training as possible and the Ecollar is the perfect tool for that .


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Nice to see you here Lou!!! Thanks to your emails and your web site, I was able to train my dogs wiht the e-collar the right way and it has worked wonders!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/05_biggrin.gif


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I am suprised at all the comments regarding the E-Collar. 

Ironically, the two breeders I have dealt with have totally different opinions. The first, and the lady I got Timber from has never used an E-Collar. The second uses the collar and in all all cases advocates using only the nick button, which I don't think anyone has mentioned. The latter does not recmmend continious simulation. Also, he recommendation using the collar to correct one type of behavior at a time. 

I have a waterproof DT Systems Collar bought from Fleet Farm.

I have a small boat with an older motor on the river, and everytime I start the thing Timber would attack the motor, and get the fishing rods, run over me, etc. in the process. The only way I could get him to stay put was use the Nick portion of the E-Collar. 

Ironically, when it comes to animals Timber will only chase on command and also comes back immediately when I tell him. But when it comes to starting the outboard he would just go wild and the only thing that worked was a Nick from the E-Collar.

I will add a few more things. The E-Collar is no longer needed but when we go fishing I still need to put it on even if the thing is turned off. The dog knows the difference between the E-Collar and his other collars, and reacts accordingly. 

Finally, despite using it I am not a big fan of the E-Collar because there is a certain amount of fear in the dog's eyes when the collar is on. So I have never felt completely comfortable with using it.


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## bethd (May 23, 2006)

The biggest problem I have with my dog at the moment is teaching him not to jump on me when he hears the e-collar turned on. He can even hear it from another room! He gets so excited because he knows the e-collar means "Let's go out and train or play or something!"

We went to an obedience class where EVERY dog, all breeds, was wearing the e-collar. All of us still worked on the basics (sit, down, heel, stay etc.) and used the e-collar for positives & negatives, it basically tells the dog "I'm talking to you".

I recently thought my dog wasn't listening to me (he's 2 yrs old) and decided to train with the clicker to get his attention. I did it in conjunction with his e-collar so that he knew the clicker meant the same thing. It worked great except it's LOUD! which is what I wanted because it got his attention but I can't see using the LOUD clicker inside Petsmart or whereever we go with people around. The e-collar works the same as the clicker and is silent so I think we'll go that route.

As far as him not listening, after reviewing Cesar's show and others, it was me not being a leader, yes I'm a pushover LOL. So by showing some tough love (actually I think it was tougher on me than him) and using the e-collar, it showed him I was the leader and he needed to listen whether he wanted to or not.

He's not treat motivated, even if I give him a hotdog he'll spit it out and investigate it first and then eat it, he won't take the treats from anyone at petsmart either. He's ball motivated but I think the squeaky ball is as loud as the noisy clicker and the ball shows him we want to play not sit and stay.

Our e-collar has 3 buttons, low-medium-high. By only using the low button he would ignore whenever he wanted and obey whenever he wanted. I have started using the medium button only and this is only when he doesn't listen to the first verbal command. This lets him know I'm being a leader and he needs to listen. High is only for uncontrollable situations.

So I give A+ to the e-collars as I can now take my dog anywhere and know he'll listen to me, especially when he's off leash!


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## lish91883 (Nov 2, 2006)

Max Baby, its great to hear you have such a positive experience with the E-Collar. I get tried of hearing all the bashing of it and the "Of course they listen, they are afraid of getting shocked". 

I train with the E-Collar and have 4 dogs of my own that I have trained with it and would never use anything else.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: harmony
> 
> Any collar that is being used on a dog is only as good as the trainer training the dog. IMO
> 
> I don't think an e-collar is cruel, I think some people that use them are. I could wreck a dog with a flat collar for that matter.


Pretty much sums all training tools up. Very good post.


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## bethd (May 23, 2006)

Thanks Lish! 

I wish I had 4 dogs!! I will when I retire in a few years - well, at least 2 dogs (I don't know about 4).


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

There have been a lot of posts since this reply, and I do have an E-Collar I use on my GSD when he decides it is fun to chase bike riders. This occurs only about 2% of the time, but the only thing that works is the E-Collar.

However, I have concerns. Unfortunately, the dog knows when the collar is on or off, so if I remove the collar he goes back to his old ways of chasing bike riders every now and then.

My questions is have any of you experienced this. With the collar the dog is perfect, but without he does mis-behave every now and then.


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## dantesmom (Jun 4, 2004)

Timber 1,

When you first got the e-collar, did you have your dog where it for four or five days before actually using it? I know that's what they suggest so that they don't associate the "sting" with the collar. Just wondering.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I do not remember, but frankly I doubt it. My hunch is I used the collar immeditaly and first used the nick button to get him to not go after my outboard motor when started. My second use has been not to chase bikes riders, joggers, etc. Timber is fine 99% of the time, but every now and then he takes off and only the E-Collar works.


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## lilmerlegirl (Jul 9, 2007)

I am new to this board/web site- as I was looking for some help with my GS. 
He's 15 mos old- and has had some training... he behaves MUCH better now that we had him fixed too.

My BIGGEST problem is his dog to dog agression. Our next door neighbor just got Black Lab puppy- and Kaiser goes CRAZY when he sees her. 
Our walks are great until we encounter another dog. I'm only 5 feet 2 inches tall, and 110 pounds, and this gets really hard to control out on walks. Any advice? I'm very frustrated, and also afraid someone is going to get hurt. 

I had "thought" about shock collars, but I am not done reading up on them either. 

Any help/advice would be awesome.

Thanks....


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Get a prong collar, learn how to use it (it's not the most user friendly), sign up for training classes where the trainer is experienced in several methods, tools, and is not restrictive on methods and tools, and also check out this link:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=131839&page=1#Post131839
Leadership information. It sounds like your dog thinks HE'S boss- YOU should be boss. It's time to dethrone him and become the alpha. I wouldn't get the e-collar until you get a better handle on him (and have more experience in training and dog behavior) unless you can find a trainer who is very knowledgeable on e-collars, not just the aversion method of training w/ e-collars, either.

Welcome to the forum! It would be best for you to start a new topic on this issue. This is an old topic and is more of a round table discussion; your problems could get lost in this post. Best to start your own in the Training or Behavior forum!


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I'm just now seeing this thread









my









after reading this through, it seems we need to agree on a premiss before reaching a conclusion - on e-collars (and other issues we 'debate').

e-collars as a training device or e-collars as a negative force...

What I mean is - training presupposes we agree that we are trying to shape behavior not simply slam the dog for bad behavior.

If we are seeking to 'shape,' then I suggest the dog must first understand what you are trying to communicate. I've never had one that speaks English.









Jerking the heck out of a dog with prong or choke or even giving treats with no timing doesn't work . Dog first has to understand command before correction or be rewarded with timing that says 'oh yeah!'

I've used treats, choke chain (I'm that old), prongs and the e-collar and think each has their time and place when used correctly on a given dog.

Treats are always yummy and loved, <u>but</u> one can end up with a demanding dog that still doesn't comply with command if doled out without timing.

I won't use a choke any longer - believe the info on hurting the trachea.

I have and do use a prong (and know it can be fit incorrectly and jerked too harshly).

I have recently learned about the e-collar (and thank you Lou - he spent time on the phone with me, gratis I might add).

I currently use all of the above and none to exclusion - excepting the choke chain. I believe each has it's place and give the e-collar accolades for having an additional feature - the 'vibrate only' mode.

I successfully use it for long distance recall and it's truly just a 'tap on the shoulder' for Sofie.

I like the e-collar. Like any training tool, I don't think it should be used without guidance.


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## dmartenvt (Apr 18, 2005)

I prefer a citronella collar as an aversive, and only when absolutely necessary (like we're at a farm and it's best she does not start killing the turkeys). I've got it to the point that the beep alone stops her in her tracks. I believe it must be used for very specific circumstances where training has not been successful, and intense prey drive is something I have not been able to control in her.

I do have an electronic fence at my camp in the country which is basically the same thing only used for a different purpose. It was my only option unfortunately as the terrain is rugged, yet I did not want to have to limit their outdoors time when we are surrounded by hundreds of acres of wilderness. The fence is for their protection and they've been trained to it. Frankly, I still hate the thought of it but it was the only option for their freedom, and they get a warning beep in addition to the flags so they do understand their boundaries and the consequences. This way they have free reign of 3 acres that I could not possibly fence.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

I wondered this..............









Would the e-collar be wise to use around our property when we have a e-fence ? I wanted to use it for when the deer are around (they all chase), for when the dogs get too ruff with play, etc, but worry this might mess them up & they think the shock is coming from the fence ? 

Thanks


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## kaslkaos (Jan 15, 2003)

If you are using the e-collar, you need to train them to 'do' something as opposed to 'not do' something. If you just press the button whenever they chase a deer or play too rough they will be confused and you can't predict how they will react. So if you want to do the training, you need to take the time to read up (and if you can, find a very good trainer). Proper use should be low stim, and you will train your dogs to come on command, so that when you feel they are playing too rough, you call them, they come, and you can give your dogs are party (treats, play, whatever) for being such good puppies.
Basically, the e-collar is to be used at low levels (not shocking or painful) as negative reinforcement, not as a punisher. You can use it in conjunction with positive reinforcement training (clicker training, rewards) if you wish (that's what I do).
These two sites do a very good job explaining the basic principles.
http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm
http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/
Best read slowly, at leisure, and several times over so that you have a good idea of the training principles involved.


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## deborahgym2 (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi there,
I have been using the e-collar on my GSD for about 2 weeks now and it has helped me tremendously. We did the preliminary training with a professional trainer and am now practicing everyday with it. I would not have used it unless the situation was life threatening. Romy fiercely lunges at cars and my fear is that if he ever gets away he will defenitely be hit by a car.
I had tried everything else before contemplating the e-collar. I used a prong, treats, had him in sit and nothing worked. If his mind was set on lunging he would and my arm would go right with it! It wasn't so much that my arm was getting really beat up, it was the fact that Romy getting hit by a car and being maimed or worse, killed terrified me.
I agree with a lot of the posters above. I only resorted to it because it was a life threatening situation. I would defenitely NOT use it for simple obedience training. The key is to get yourself properly trained on it before you use it on your loved one.
Romy is doing a lot better now. He sometimes still has urges but i correct them immediately and he snaps right out of it. My piece of mind is that if for whatever reason it might be he gets away on the leash and runs off, atleast I will have some kind of controll in getting him back with the command COME! If i were not to use the e-collar i would be completely powerless and a bystander to something dreadful that I could have avoided by using the e-collar.
regards,
Debbie


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## CertainlySpoiled (Dec 2, 2007)

I don't use shoke collars, I don't have anything against them if that's a persons perferred method, but personally, I think it's a bit harsh, and won't do that to my Girl's...I'll stick to traditional training methods....they seem to get the job done for us.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Interesting topic of debate. Particularly to me at this time, because I intend to use an electronic collar on my 6 month old GSD, and should be receiving it in a day or two. I have used an invisible fence once before with a previous GSD, but never the remote collar. I see a lot of evidence in responses here that the stigma associated to e-collars is very much alive and well. Not unfounded, I'm sure - as many people through either ignorance or cruelty have misused them and continue to do so. However, I don't consider yanking a dog around with a prong collar or choker collar to be exactly a hug and a kiss either. I took my puppy to obedience training and stopped going half way through the paid sessions because I disagree with the "yank him harder and smack him harder" approach. 

I agree completely that sound training advice and careful execution is very important - if you can find a good trainer that can provide it. Not everyone has such a trainer available. There are some good materials out there that help with this. I plan to acclimate the pup to the collar for a couple weeks before ever turning it on, and during that time to work hard on the commands I intend to use the collar to reinforce. Because he is young, I intend to be extra careful with its use and my expectations, but a stimulation from a collar is no worse than a leash pop with a prong collar, so long as the dog understands why the stim is occuring.

I want my dog to come when either me or my wife call him - unconditionally and without hesitation. This is the most important thing there is, and can save his life someday. I think you can only go so far with leash and long lead training. The next step will be to teach him boundaries, some permanent and some ad hoc. I want to know that he will stay in my yard, for example, until told he can leave it. 

I'm hoping to find as much thought and advice on this topic as possible. The last thing I want to do is a poor job of training. I want a healthy meaningful relationship with my dog for many years to come, and I think the e-collar is among the available tools that, if used properly, can help to ensure that.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I do not own any e-collars, but have done some research on them and formed the opinion that they are a tool and can be effective for certain problems, mostly to get a dog's attention. IMO they should be used as a temporary tool (as should prong collars), not for "the life of the dog." They should be used as a tool, not a lifestyle.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I have gone back or forth on this issue so much. My biggest concern with the E-Collar is so many might use it as a quick fix. On the other hand, to resolve a specific issue it can be helpful.

As I mentioned previously, and was suprised the experts did not, was stick to the nick button.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeekaslkaos has a good point about not all trainers being 'good'. Why it's important we have to do OUR research on the front end to make sure what we want, and the method we want to use to TRAIN our dog, is the same as what the trainer is doing.
> 
> The way I see the e-collar is there are 2 methods it can be used for. As a slamming correction AFTER the dog is doing something wrong (like the bark collar will do, and the way we CAN use a training collar). So say dog gets into trash again, we activate the collar to punish them so they will now avoid the trash can (hopefully). You don't need to read up on how to do this, you don't have to train your dog, this takes no time. Dog does something you don't like, you come down on the e-collar like the Wrath of God. Can end up with a fearful, timid and confused dog who is not sure when/where/how the next time God will again strike them down.
> 
> ...


























MLR you have put into words (AWESOMELY) I might add EXACTLY what I have been TRYING to say on this board for a LONG TIME NOW. MY HAT IS OFF TO YOU!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: BigDog3American Vet supplies has it for $184 at http://www.americanvetsupply.com/i_024DG-200NCPG_Dogtra+200+NCP+Gold+Collar+1+2+Mile.php
> 
> MightyPets has it for $189 with free shipping at
> http://www.mightypets.com/product.asp?3=1366
> ...


I have used the Dogtra 1800, Dogtra200, Dogtra 175 (this one is best suited for small dogs) and my newest is the Dogtra 280. I REALLY LIKE THIS 280! It is a low to medium stim collar with 127 stimulation levels with LCD so you know exactly what stim level your own. Stay away from the 1800 series unless you have alot of E-collar experience and have a hard dog.


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## Bully (Sep 7, 2008)

I am a dog trainer and use the e-collar in ALOT of my training. The e-collar is the best tool if used correctly. I actually did a demo this evening brought out my Dutch shep Raider did a demo on obedience then bite work. the lady was amazed we go back into her house to talk some more I explain to her how I have Raider under such control with the training w/ the e-collar and she says oh ive read that they are cruel tools. Only someone that has so much ignorance can say that a pinch or choke is more humane than the No limitations method of e-collar training. the e-collar can be used in a positive motivational way. the lady signed up after I did a quick demo with her dog but I am tired of traditional trainers bashing the e-collar because their techniques take so long to get results.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

we used one from my trainer to teach pooches not to run up to cars when they come into drive way. It worked


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## herno1 (Sep 10, 2008)

i don't know too much about them, but i don't feel good using it on my pal, i prefer to use is the pinch choke collar. it's grat for training, i had great results with it.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Until I got my newest rescue, a large ten month old GSD, I though the pinch collar was great. A few yelps and problem solved. It worked well on my forever, now 2 1/2 year old Shepherd. However, my rescue dog does not care how much the pronged collar hurts him. He continues to fight it and applies the pressure himself.

I just think each dog is so different, and what works well for one, might not work for another.


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## herno1 (Sep 10, 2008)

i agree with u Timber


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Me 2. The subject in itself is controvercial (to use or not to use), then there is controvercy among the users regarding which technique to use from the following,

1: Avoidance Technique 
Where stimulation is started and continued till dog responds to command. Dog obeys quicker in order to stop the stimulation. 

2: Correction Technique 
Stimulation is given only after dog refuses to obey a command that he knows well. Also used to correct unwanted behavior.

1 uses low level continous stimulation, 2 uses high level nick. Depends upon the training goal and the subject dog. In some cases none is needed! in some cases one or the other is used, in some cases a combination of both are used.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

dbl post


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: PackenMe 2. The subject in itself is controvercial (to use or not to use), then there is controvercy among the users regarding which technique to use from the following,
> 
> 1: Avoidance Technique
> Where stimulation is started and continued till dog responds to command. Dog obeys quicker in order to stop the stimulation.
> ...


I use the Ecollar the sameway you would use an prong collar, it is also the fastest way to teach recall and distance commands. the pager recall is also nice.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I think try every humane (for lack of a better word) method first and if none of them work then - only then - use an e-collar.
I prefer to have the dogs obey because they want to (with lures and rewards), not out of fear of being shocked.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI think try every humane (for lack of a better word) method first and if none of them work then - only then - use an e-collar.


The Ecollar is a completely humane tool for training a dog. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI prefer to have the dogs obey because they want to (with lures and rewards), not out of fear of being shocked.


If you think that dogs trained with Ecollars obey only because they "fear being shocked" you don't understand the method. Looking at this another way, a dog trained by being lured _is afraid _that if he doesn't obey, that he won't get the treat.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I don't like e-collars. I'd never use one because I think it's an excuse for not working harder with your dog. However, I will not frown upon someone else for using one. I will train my way, someone else will train their way, different, but acceptable.


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## nova (Sep 25, 2008)

My GSD was born with a huge prey drive from the start. He will bark,chase and even pounce on anything smaller than him it seems.
I have 3 cats and lets just say they really hated him (and they are dog freindly cats)
Long story short I tryed numerous techniques my trainer told me to,and everything falied with flying colors.

Finally my trainer after class last wk said she would come over and show me how she uses her e-collar in these situations.(my trainer rox btw) Since he is still a babe, I was not happy but I was happy after she agreed to only use the pager. Its the vibration.She had the dogtra series for hunting(has the pager,nic,and cont) The second he went for my cat,and he did not respond to vocal commands she paged it. He stopped dead in his tracks and looked at us and came and sat by me. I praised him and treated him,and was so shocked that It worked. 

The next day I went and got one,and now after only 4 days around my cats I dont have to even page him.He wears it so he knows,But I dont have to even use it now. Just say "leave it" and he does.Lots of Treat and hugs.

So I myself would have never imagined using such a tool, but I know the only time I myself will is with my cats and outside off leash( I also hike alot).He will not be having the collar for hiking for quite some time yet however. I want him finished with his classes first and than like the other people on here only on and used when needed. He has a very high critter drive and I also want to keep him safe. I dont want to however hinder his training or our bond. My voice is what I want him to respond to in the long run,and the collar as back up sorta speak. I couldnt dream of using it for reg basic commands such as drop,sit ect. That in my eyes would be an over use of it,and I am far from a " lazy " person when it comes to my dog.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

<i>Do you think they're an acceptable training method?</i>
In some cases, but in the vast majority of cases IMO it's not necessary.

<i>In what situation, if any, would you use one on your dog?</i>
Only if I had tried every single other method first and none of them worked. Not likely though. 

<i>If you do use one, do you consider it a temporary training tool, or something you will continually use to deal with the problem?</i>
If I was to use one, it'd be as temporary as possible.

As a continual method, I give the e-collar a







.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI think try every humane (for lack of a better word) method first and if none of them work then - only then - use an e-collar.
> ...


So it's you again.
BTW, the "fear" of not getting the treat is a much different fear than being shocked. Would you rather be shocked, or have a treat withheld from you? I'd choose having the treat withheld.
To boot, we're already discussing this on Dogster, so just lay off me here please.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is not to debate in.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

Lou Castle is a respected professional dog trainer http://www.loucastle.com/ that I would use in a heartbeat if I were on he Left Coast. I'll say it again if you have no issue with using a prong collar then an E Collar will make you a more effective trainer, cookie pushing is great for puppies but after awhile a mature dog is going to try to develope his/her own agenda and get collar/leash wise fast. E collars work and are humane, the biggest advantages are consistant cueing , correction and distance. As soon as the dog realizes that you can control him from across a football field or any room in the house your on your way to having a UberHund


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I realize that about him, heard all about it on Dogster. The debate over on Dogster is getting into more of a war though. I thought a lot of him at first, but then...nevermind. I might get into trouble if I get into that.
As for "cookie pushing", I don't agree. Cookie learned her first command at age 5. I started training her with treats when she was 8 years old and last year switched over to complete positive reinforcement. She's now 10, knows basic Obedience, and several tricks. I just discovered the NILIF (nothing in life if free) part of positive reinforcement months ago and ever since I've started using it, Cookie's obedience is getting better.
I'm still learning about positive reinforcement, and it seems the more I learn the better my training goes along.
As for a prong collar, yes I'd have just as much issues with using that as with using an e-collar.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I'm sorry "Cookie pushing" is a term some of use to denote the "Positive Only" training style and I use a style of it for puppies up to 6 months and any time I'm teaching a new skill or tricks. They don't want to do a trick I don't care, they want to bolt out the door, chase a cat or not recall off a ball that rolled out into the street or out of bounds or not let go of the helper then I want my dog to understand she MUST obey not " well if I blow him off I won't get a treat and he'll just turn a funny color"


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

My other dog, which I got from the shelter last year, I've been using positive reinforcement with him from the start. He knows as many tricks as Cookie does and obeys well. Just today, he got loose outside (by accident) and followed me on my bike. He'd get sidetracked for a moment but I'd just tell him "leave it" and he would. And when we got home I called him to me and he came.







Treader was about two or three when I got him, according to the shelter.
I have Cookie loose outside quite often and she does well on her recall and will even obey commands. One day a friend of mine was taking his 4-wheeler back to his house. I put Cookie in a sit/stay for fear that she'd give chase. She stayed until I gave the release cue.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

we're talking different dogs her, mine a pushy pyscho bastards from SchutzHund and former soviet block police lines, yours are sweet hearts who live for your love, mine live to chase and bite......................


well ok, they like the snuggle time to, but not too much..........


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

That's fine. Keep using your own method. And I'll keep using mine.
I'd definitely use positive reinforcement on any dog that I get, but that's just my preference.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CookieGSDSo it's you again.


Again? LOL. More like "still." Looking at our join dates, I've been here about two years longer than you have. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD BTW, the "fear" of not getting the treat is a much different fear than being shocked.


Perhaps it is. Which is more severe is up to the dog to decide, not you or I. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD Would you rather be shocked, or have a treat withheld from you? I'd choose having the treat withheld.


I'd rather have a stim from an Ecollar used as I do. As I said, it's up to the animal on the receiving end. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD To boot, we're already discussing this on Dogster, so just lay off me here please.


I have no idea who you are and it really makes no difference. Looks like we're having the discussion here too. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is not to debate in.


Is there some limit placed on this thread that I'm not aware of? Your comments that I've already responded to sure seem to me to be part of a "debate."


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarLou Castle is a respected professional dog trainer http://www.loucastle.com/ that I would use in a heartbeat if I were on he Left Coast.


Thanks for the kind words.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Ok, one thing that has been asked but not really addressed and I've always wondered about ...

What do you do when the dog becomes collar-smart? The dog knows when the collar is on that they have to obey, but when it's off they can totally ignore you.

Forgot to add - I know this can happen with ANY type of collar but the e-collar's main 'selling point' is the ability to control your dog remotely.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangOk, one thing that has been asked but not really addressed and I've always wondered about ...
> 
> What do you do when the dog becomes collar-smart? The dog knows when the collar is on that they have to obey, but when it's off they can totally ignore you.
> 
> Forgot to add - I know this can happen with ANY type of collar but the e-collar's main 'selling point' is the ability to control your dog remotely.


they wear the collar deactivated for a period of time before the training actualy starts


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangWhat do you do when the dog becomes collar-smart? The dog knows when the collar is on that they have to obey, but when it's off they can totally ignore you.
> 
> Forgot to add - I know this can happen with ANY type of collar but the e-collar's main 'selling point' is the ability to control your dog remotely.


As you say this is a training flaw that can happen with any collar or even something as benign as a bandanna. 



> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar they wear the collar deactivated for a period of time before the training actualy starts


MG is right. I know of one trainer who puts the Ecollar on the dog for three months before he starts to train with it. But few people have that much time to spare. 

Sometimes, such as when I meet with a new client, it's not possible. I suggest that you (if you're going to be home) put the collar on in the morning when you get up and take it off at night, when you go to bed. Do this whether you go training or not. If you're not going to be home, when you do get home put it on and then take if off just before you go to bed. 

If you do this MAKE SURE that you move the collar around on the dog's neck every couple of hours. If you don't you'll have sores on his neck from where the contact points rub against his skin. Also ensure that you have the collar strap on at the correct tension. 

The problem is created by trainers who put it on, work with the dog and then take it off. It only takes doing this a couple of times and the dumbest of dogs will figure out what's causing the stim.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> The problem is created by trainers who put it on, work with the dog and then take it off. It only takes doing this a couple of times and the dumbest of dogs will figure out what's causing the stim.


and a smart dog will figure out where the stim is coming from no matter how long he wears the collar before the first stim.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

HHHhmmmmmmmmmm, let's see dog training advice from my fellow novice dog training netizens or from the fellow who makes a living at it and life depended on the results.......................


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: CookieGSDSo it's you again.
> ...


I'm the user with the dog Burkett's Cookies 'n' Creme TA, from Dogster. If you'll remember me in the debate on there.
If someone wants to use a method that I don't agree with, does it bother me? Maybe a bit depending on what mood I'm in, but it's their business. They use what they want and I'll use what I want.
Just today, my dog got loose again and my brother didn't tell me about it. When I did know about it, I went out, called my dog, and within a couple of minutes he was running to me.
"Is there some limit placed on this thread that I'm not aware of? Your comments that I've already responded to sure seem to me to be part of a "debate." 
I'd said that, went back and edited it. Then I realized that I should remove the last part, but it wouldn't let me.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarHHHhmmmmmmmmmm, let's see dog training advice from my fellow novice dog training netizens or from the fellow who makes a living at it and life depended on the results.......................


I understand where you're coming from. However, the advice given to me came from professional trainers as well. There's both negative and positive reinforcement trainers. The ones in my area, at least the one at "Kats 'n' Dogs" are positive reinforcement ones. I've also read books on positive reinforcement written by professional trainers. One of the best was "The Dog Whisperer: A Compassionate, Nonviolent Approach to Dog Training" by Paul Owens with Norma Eckorate. He is pretty biased about correct collars in general, but still I find it great reading.
Don't get me wrong, I've also read books on negative reinforcement. Admittedly, mostly older ones, but I recently checked out one by Cesar Millan, though I disagree with his methods.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

P.S.
Negative reinforcement does have it's place. I prefer to use negative reinforcement only as a backup when positive reinforcement backfires. It hasn't backfired much at all with me though. Works really well and the dogs respond to it well. The one time that I did resort to negative reinforcement so far was when I just couldn't get Treader to stop pulling on the leash. So I would pull him back when he pulls and reward him for not pulling when he didn't. But then I found out that there was another positive reinforcement method that I could have tried first,







and I plan on trying it on our next walk.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GregK and a smart dog will figure out where the stim is coming from no matter how long he wears the collar before the first stim.


I disagree if my methods are used. If all you do is substitute the stim for a leash correction, you're right. But that's not what I do. With my method the dog associates the stim with his actions and not with the handler. I think this gives greater reliability.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CookieGSDNegative reinforcement does have it's place. I prefer to use negative reinforcement only as a backup when positive reinforcement backfires. It hasn't backfired much at all with me though. Works really well and the dogs respond to it well. The one time that I did resort to negative reinforcement so far was when I just couldn't get Treader to stop pulling on the leash. * So I would pull him back when he pulls * and reward him for not pulling when he didn't. [Emphasis added]


When you pulled back on the leash you applied +P, positive punishment. You added pressure to the leash to the situation hence + and the effect was to weaken his tendency to pull, hence punishment.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I already realized this.








Negative punishment is actually used in positive reinforcement. The word "negative" in it means that you take something away. Such as not giving the dog the reward and letting him know this
Positive punishment is used in negative reinforcement and is called "positive" because you add something. Such as a shock from an e-collar.
You probably already knew that, so feel free to







me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI already realized this.
> Negative punishment is actually used in positive reinforcement. The word "negative" in it means that you take something away. Such as not giving the dog the reward and letting him know this
> Positive punishment is used in negative reinforcement and is called "positive" because you add something. Such as a shock from an e-collar.
> You probably already knew that, so feel free to me.


What a twisted way of looking at the four quadrants of OC. In any case, on the Dogster forum you've written this,


> Quote: People can use negative reinforcement if they wish, but - as for me - I'm going to keep using - and advocating - positive reinforcement training.


And yet here you are describing your use of +P.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: CookieGSDI already realized this.
> ...


I'm only repeating what I've been told about positive reinforcement. It's hard to get. I mean "positive punishment" does sound as though is belongs with positive reinforcement because of the wording, right?
Sounds like you're ignoring my comments:
"I prefer to use negative reinforcement only as a backup when positive reinforcement backfires." and "The ONE TIME that I did resort to negative reinforcement so far was when I just couldn't get Treader to stop pulling on the leash." Emphasis added.
I believe that I had made a similar statement on Dogster as well.
I still use and advocate positive reinforcement training. Just because I use negative reinforcement as a back-up does not make that statement false.
It seems that you would have remembered that, because you are obviously very intelligent. This is what I mean when I told you on Dogster that you twist words around to help your argument.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Electrons flow from the negative terminal to the positive one, so that makes an e-collar positive reinforcement, hehe.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: PackenElectrons flow from the negative terminal to the positive one, so that makes an e-collar positive reinforcement, hehe.


No it doesn't. It's positive punishment, but not positive as in positive reinforcement. Positive as in *adding* something to punish the dog.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

It was a joke, need min tech background to understand it!


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I see. Sorry for misunderstanding.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarI'm sorry "Cookie pushing" is a term some of use to denote the "Positive Only" training style and I use a style of it for puppies up to 6 months and any time I'm teaching a new skill or tricks. They don't want to do a trick I don't care, they want to bolt out the door, chase a cat or not recall off a ball that rolled out into the street or out of bounds or not let go of the helper then I want my dog to understand she MUST obey not " well if I blow him off I won't get a treat and he'll just turn a funny color"


The way this was worded was a bit hard to understand, but I've finally got what you meant. I use NILIF (Nothing in life is free, part of positive reinforcement) methods, where Cookie has to obey before she gets anything she wants. She wants outside, I make her do a sit/stay while I open the door and when I'm ready I give her the release cue and she jogs outside into the back-yard. I make her sit, stay, and do tricks before she is allowed to eat her supper - even while it is in the bowl. You get the idea.
These exercises help reinforce her obedience level. She actually didn't do too well on stay until I started using NILIF.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier CookieGSD wrote this


> Quote: I already realized this.
> Negative punishment is actually used in positive reinforcement. The word "negative" in it means that you take something away. Such as not giving the dog the reward and letting him know this
> Positive punishment is used in negative reinforcement and is called "positive" because you add something. Such as a shock from an e-collar.
> You probably already knew that, so feel free to me.


And I responded


> Quote:What a twisted way of looking at the four quadrants of OC.


Usually I avoid discussions of OC (Operant Conditioning) with pet owners. It often confuses them, and it's not necessary for them to learn in order for them to be able to train their dogs. _ Trainers, _OTOH should be able to discuss it without problem. 

If a pet owner wants to learn about it, that's great, but it's hardly necessary. But if they're going to use the terms, they should use them properly or others who don't have a solid grasp of the concepts may become confused. 

You have two phases of OC being based on two other phases and that's not right. They can exist by themselves without other phases being present. 

You wrote,


> Quote: Negative punishment is actually used in positive reinforcement.


These are based on their effect on the behavior, not by their effect on the dog. Both of these can exist by themselves. +R can consist merely of giving the dog a treat that he likes (if it affects the behavior). This last part means, for example, that if your dog is laying at your feet and you give him a treat, and his behavior is not affected, it's not +R. It must affect the behavior. 

Whether something is reinforcing or punishing is based on how the dog perceives it, not what the human thinks of it. You may think that petting your dog on the head is reinforcing to him but if he doesn't like it, it's punishing. So much of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" are based on what the human thinks are reinforcing and punishing and that is one of the problems with it. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD It's hard to get. I mean "positive punishment" does sound as though is belongs with positive reinforcement because of the wording, right?


It DOES belong with it because of the word "positive." In both cases something is added to the situation. 

Earlier you wrote,


> Quote: "I prefer to use negative reinforcement only as a backup when positive reinforcement backfires." and "The ONE TIME that I did resort to negative reinforcement so far was when I just couldn't get Treader to stop pulling on the leash."


Notice that you've overlooked the +P in what you were doing. You called it –R, which you've labeled as acceptable in your use of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD I still use and advocate positive reinforcement training. Just because I use negative reinforcement as a back-up does not make that statement false.


I said nothing about making your statement false. I was just pointing out that in spite of "advocating positive reinforcement training (which has no generally accepted definition) you are still using punishment. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD It seems that you would have remembered that, because you are obviously very intelligent.


An insult (that I've forgotten something) combined with a compliment (that I'm intelligent). I don't know whether to cry or to thank you. lol. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD This is what I mean when I told you on Dogster that you twist words around to help your argument.


Rather than me having forgotten something in this discussion, what's happened is that you've conveniently overlooked the fact that you're using punishment in your training and pretending that you don't. You do. It's impossible to train a dog and not use punishment. Yet the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" will often argue that they don't use it. I've had dozens of these discussions with these folks and each time shown then where they ARE using it. Sometimes they continue to deny it, so strong is their aversion to admitting the truth about it.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: PackenElectrons flow from the negative terminal to the positive one, so that makes an e-collar positive reinforcement, hehe.


I got it. 

+++++++++++++++++++++

One atom said to the other, "I lost an electron." 

The other atom said, "Are you sure?"

"Sure," said the first one, "I'm positive!" 

++++++++++++++++++++

A set of starter cables walked into a bar. The bartender said, "You can stay but don't start anything!"


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

Nerd humor, har har


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleEarlier CookieGSD wrote this
> 
> 
> > Quote: I already realized this.
> ...


_Usually I avoid discussions of OC (Operant Conditioning) with pet owners. It often confuses them, and it's not necessary for them to learn in order for them to be able to train their dogs. Trainers, OTOH should be able to discuss it without problem.

If a pet owner wants to learn about it, that's great, but it's hardly necessary. But if they're going to use the terms, they should use them properly or others who don't have a solid grasp of the concepts may become confused.

You have two phases of OC being based on two other phases and that's not right. They can exist by themselves without other phases being present._
I see.

_You may think that petting your dog on the head is reinforcing to him but if he doesn't like it, it's punishing. So much of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" are based on what the human thinks are reinforcing and punishing and that is one of the problems with it._
Which is why you experiment with different rewards to see what makes the dog tick.

_Notice that you've overlooked the +P in what you were doing. You called it –R, which you've labeled as acceptable in your use of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods."_
Got that.

_I said nothing about making your statement false. I was just pointing out that in spite of "advocating positive reinforcement training (which has no generally accepted definition) you are still using punishment._
And I still advocate positive reinforcement, but I also advocate using negative reinforcement and p+ as a back-up.

_Rather than me having forgotten something in this discussion, what's happened is that you've conveniently overlooked the fact that you're using punishment in your training and pretending that you don't. You do. It's impossible to train a dog and not use punishment. Yet the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" will often argue that they don't use it. I've had dozens of these discussions with these folks and each time shown then where they ARE using it. Sometimes they continue to deny it, so strong is their aversion to admitting the truth about it._
I've never said that I don't use punishment, just that I don't use negative reinforcement unless I need to. One of my favorite positive reinforcement-advocated methods, NILIF, is P-.
There was some confusion, as you pointed out, with the P-/P+ thing.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

P.S.
I never once tried to make it look like I don't use punishment.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: PackenElectrons flow from the negative terminal to the positive one, so that makes an e-collar positive reinforcement, hehe.
> ...




Groaaaaaaan.

DFrost


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CookieGSDAnd I still advocate positive reinforcement, but I also advocate using negative reinforcement and p+ as a back-up.


I use an Ecollar and "advocate positive reinforcement. I also advocate using –R, and +P" and –P as appropriate. The difference is that you believe that one phase of OC is more important than another, and it's not, except as an imagined ideology. 



> Originally Posted By: CookieGSD I've never said that I don't use punishment, just that I don't use negative reinforcement unless I need to. One of my favorite positive reinforcement-advocated methods, NILIF, is P-.


NILIF uses all phases of OC too.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DFrost Groaaaaaaan.


I made David groan. I made David groan. (sung in a sing-song voice while dancing around the living room). It's a slow night at the Castle residence. ROFLMAO. 

Careful I have LOTS more.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

_The difference is that you believe that one phase of OC is more important than another, and it's not, except as an imagined ideology._
That's your opinion. Mine is that positive reinforcement and P- can be used almost exclusively or without negative reinforcement.
I do believe that they all have their place, however.
I'm still learning about dog training. For instance, in one of the books today, I learned about the 80% rule, where you don't go to the next step until the dog is 80% reliable on the current step.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

correct me if I'm wrong but when using NILIF, when you isolate/ignore the dog for unwanted behavior isn't that a form of "negative" correction? you just isloated a creature that so pack driven and has an emotional need to be with the pack, removal from the pack causes a certain amount of stress?


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarcorrect me if I'm wrong but when using NILIF, when you isolate/ignore the dog for unwanted behavior isn't that a form of "negative" correction? you just isloated a creature that so pack driven and has an emotional need to be with the pack, removal from the pack causes a certain amount of stress?


My dogs aren't removed from the "pack". I simply won't let them have what they desire until they obey. I don't ignore her for not obeying, I say "no", withhold the reward, and give the cue again. I reward them for obeying. When practicing a stay in NILIF, I vary the amount of time that goes by before I give the release cue so that my dogs don't wait a certain amount of time and then release themselves from the stay.


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

P.S.
Several positive reinforcement advocates that I know have recommended NILIF. I found out how it works and decided to give it a try. And I'm pleased with the results. According to my research, NILIF is P-, not P+.


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## Foo Lyn Roo (May 16, 2007)

We use the Dogtra remote training collars on both echo and indigo.
We got them via the reccomendation from our trainer, who has trained k9 dogs and was a k9 cop for 20 some years and now has run a successfull training company for many years.

They don't SHOCK or send electricity into the body like a tazer does. I've put one on and have used it on myself and my husband.
It definatley gets their attention.

Its a life long thing with both dogs, although the respond now even with it off. 

I don't think its cruel I think for a larger breed or more difficult breed its actually a safe method. I never have to yank or scold
my dogs. 

Also I never read the instruction booklet on "how to train" your dog for the collar, we do not use the stimulation as a punishment, but instead, use it, low.. with each command. All it does it stimulate the dog and let it aware that its should be listening.

That's just my choice of route that we took, I'm well aware, and have with other dogs used other methods, that work just as well.

If used properly, with proper training I think they are a perfectly acceptable choice of training tool.


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## Foo Lyn Roo (May 16, 2007)

Oh I guess I should add, I live across the street from a commuter rail, so I researched and chose this method because I needed to be able to train my dogs to respond to me if on the off chance they got out and were far from me.


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## Daisy1986 (Jul 9, 2008)

I agree with you Cookie.







I would never use this method of training. 

Although with a train across the street foo lynn,







that is a tough one. I am really happy to hear you and you DH put it on too. I wish all owners of these collars did that.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

I use NILIF as well as the remote training collar. After training dogs for 30+ years, I have found that the remote training collar is a very gentle method when used correctly. The units are so fine tuned now that they cannot be compared to those used even 10 years ago.

I work for a training company that uses remote training collars and before we ever put one on a dog we request that the owner feel the collar so that they know exactly what their dog would experience. How many people would recommend that with say a prong?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Both prong and e-collars are great training tools.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

I use both a prong and an e-collar, and they are both great tools if you use them correctly. Kodee likes to pull on walks, especially if he wants to get to a person (to greet them) or a dog (to attack them) - he has gotten so strong that I can't control him well enough to keep him and other dogs safe. He also pulls just to sniff things that are too far off our walking paths to reach. One day my elbow and shoulder were sore, just from walking him, and it was just from him pulling to "investigate" anything and everything. So I use the prong for walks now, and let him "self-correct". He knows if he pulls, the prong tightens, which is uncomfortable. I NEVER pop the leash when he's on the prong. I don't use it for training or corrections, just for control.

The e-collar is great for re-inforcing the training we've already done, and for controlling him off-lead. I don't teach commands with it, but I do use it for corrections (when I know he understands what I'm telling him, but he's choosing to disobey). He gets more freedom off-lead, so he can really get out and run on our 15 acres without being completely out of my control. Until I bought the e-collar, he was never off leash or long-line, ever. Which means his exercise during just playing outside was really restricted. He gets a lot more exercise on our acreage than he could without the e-collar.

I love both of these tools, and I thought they were both barbaric torture devices until I researched them. Live and learn!


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## nitros_mommy (Jun 26, 2006)

If you are interested in Ecollar training, specifically Etouch or forcefree training, which works on positive training rather than punishment training. I have a full list of recommended trainers  here

I spent a whole week at a seminar with these people, and have seen them work. Tehy are listed by state. It might take a little travelling if they aren't too close but they really are all certified in Etouch and Forcefree methods of Ecollar training.


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## COOP98 (May 26, 2007)

I have the PetSafe wireless system, and love it! It has been the biggest life saver! It is the best investment you can make.


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## herno1 (Sep 10, 2008)

who can tell me the best place to buy a good e-collar?? 
brand?? cheapest??


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: herno1who can tell me the best place to buy a good e-collar??
> brand?? cheapest??


I wouldn't cheap out on a Ecollar, I've had good results with the DogTra brand

check with Lou Castle on the brand he recommends


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## herno1 (Sep 10, 2008)

Who can tell me what's better. Buy the ecollar or pay a trainer??


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

The best prices I've seen are on Ebay. But one has to be careful. I've seen "grey market collars" for sale there. They don't have a US warranty. 

I'll PM with more info.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: herno1Who can tell me what's better. Buy the ecollar or pay a trainer??


Take a look at my articles. HERE 
If you can read and follow simple instructions you can do the work yourself.


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## herno1 (Sep 10, 2008)

i just looked at your webpage and sent you an email


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Better late then never. 

I use E collars on my dogs (Yes I have tried them on myself) while I had to teach myself mostly how to use them I started with avoidance training as an extension of my arms a way to reach the dog from a distance. 

I have now started to use my E collars for formal Ob work but this is only under the guidance of a German trainer that uses one also (No names mentioned however). 

At one German club I belong too they burned their dogs out on the collars because they did not use them properly and kept craking up the juice higher and higher! This pisses me off! 

I also instruct customers how to use them for avoidance training with their own dogs when they ask. 

When used correctly any tool can be of great help! and like wise any tool can be used in abusive situations!


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## lupina (Mar 4, 2009)

When used correctly they're a wonderful tool. I usually drive to Cape Cod every year and taking one or two dogs is the norm. When we go for walks during low tide on the bay side the only way I'm comfortable with them heading off to explore is the knowledge that I can get them back...immediately. 

The e-collar provides us the freedom.


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## lucinde (Oct 13, 2008)

Here in Denmark they are not legal to use.. But I hope they will be soon, they are a very good tool, when used correctly.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Lucinde,
They are not legal here either but so many people are using them! we just keep them covered. Maybe you need a vacation in germany over the border so you can buy one? 

In the town when the boxer club I practice at is Schweikerts dog sport shope and they sell them a little pricey.


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## lucinde (Oct 13, 2008)

It is the same in Denmark, people are using covered.. There is even courses in using them here.. Just not official..


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Regarding the situation in Germany and Denmark, I don't know about Denmark but it's my understanding that Ecollars are not _"illegal" _there. I thought that some groups had made them against their rules but that's not the same status as _"being illegal." _

Being _"illegal" _ means government action in the form of fines, incarceration, seizure, etc. Being against some group's rules means disqualification by a private entity from competition or membership, etc. 

Can you folks who are on the ground there please clarify?


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## lucinde (Oct 13, 2008)

They are illegal in Denmark to use.. Not to own..


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lucindeThey are illegal in Denmark to use.. Not to own..


LOL. Sometimes you just have to laugh at legislators.


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## lucinde (Oct 13, 2008)

)


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I had the same understanding that they were and are only "against the rules" to use them on any dog club property here in germany. 

Until I did the training seminar with Bernhard Flinks and him being (German police) made sure I knew that no they are illegal to use and best to keep mine covered even when only out walking with my dogs so people could not ask questions. 

This year at the Boxer meistershaft in Holenlimburg (Sp) the #1 dog disqualifyed because someone saw the owner training her boxer with an E collar. (I was not there I heard from a member that did attend).

I hate it! It is like a "dirty little secret" to have an E collar on your dog! 
So when people ask me I have a "dog handy or telephone". 

Now on that note I swear at the cub I go to now I saw a visitor Friday with a E collar on his Mali! But I did not trust my eyes. 

And I am too chicken to ask yet if I can use mine, I did at the boxer club I went too and I cannot tell you how they made me feel because I use one, but then I think that might be Boxer people in General (excluding any of course in Schutzhund)?

Because most boxer forums when you mention E collars what a mean horrid person you are for using one and you should never Shock a boxer! 
One forum even says in the agree to these terms not to mention training with E collars and I did and they kicked me out.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Berg Wanderer
> Because most boxer forums when you mention E collars what a mean horrid person you are for using one and you should never Shock a boxer!
> One forum even says in the agree to these terms not to mention training with E collars and I did and they kicked me out.


Do they think that because they stick heads in the sand that Ecollars will go away? What they're doing is FAR MORE DAMAGING to their beloved breed than discussing the tool. People are going to get and use Ecollars. If they're not allowed to discuss proper use, people will use whatever they think is correct. Often it's not and causes problems. If such discussions were allowed people, at least, would have access to the information. 

These are the same folks who would burn books that they don't agree with.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

Yes, Lou I know and agree with you! 

Actually I feel that with the way training is going now a days (And I have seen this first hand myself) if your not using the E collar in training your working dog you're going to in the next few years be left behind the curve. 

And I almost have to wonder about the "groups" here in Germany that made "E collars against the rules" or illegal on club grounds (I think is the actual term and yes clubs do get fined and training directors do loose their rights to train)

I recall hearing at one point because someone decided that my great grand pappy did not need one to train his dog then neither do we to train ours"!
(Not a quote just IMO)


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## Shelbyrenee (Apr 13, 2009)

I use a shock collar like this one on my 2 year old GSD. My dad bought it when she was a puppy and I hated it. I would hide it so he couldnt put it on her. Well about a year and a half later (2 months ago or so) My boyfriend how has trained his own hunting dogs was tryin to get her to walk on a lease. I walked her every day for about a year with prong collars and harnesses and halters with no luck. She would just pull me around. Well I figured I would take my boyfriends advice and break out the collar. I put it on her and hooked the lease to her regular collar and off we went. Her pulling away.
I beeped the collar 4 times and then with the collar on 2 of 9 socked her. The rest of the walk no pulling. When she got ahead of use I would beep her and she would run back to my side.. ears up licking my hand.
Now my little brother can walk her with just a beep from me when she gets ahead...he doesnt get pulled.
And a few days ago we walked without a leash and now she gets to run in the park and woods and I dont have to worry about her taking off or biting someone or their dog. 

Its wonderful.Most days I dont even have to shock her jsut beep a few times. And on the days I do shock her its usually only once and on leve 2 or 3 out of 9.

Now Bam can go out and its enjoyable.
I dont use it for obedience training just walks and when we are outside.


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## PaulaEdwina (Apr 15, 2009)

I've never used a shock collar. I'm a clicker trainer mostly, so my dogs were trained on a flat buckle collar. Milo, my first ridgeback, was trained with a choke, but I don't use choke chains other than for tying up fences or hanging parrot toys now.

I do have a hot wire running around my yard perimeter inside the fence line. I had a ridgeback (who has since passed) who did not respect the fence. She would literally pull up the fence fabric from the ground stakes and squeeze out (a funny as heck story about loose dogs in rural PA). That could not happen for a number of reasons (nuisance dogs, hit by truck, shot for chasing wildlife, etc).

Hot wires are awesome. Totally hand of God training.
Paula


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## kkalligher (Jan 29, 2010)

I agree the e-collar is a tool. It's too easy to criticize pet owners as lazy and too willing to use something easy. No one knows what someone else is thinking. My dog has a significant prey drive. We have deer who visit our yard daily; one day I was going for a walk with my guy and we came out from underneath a porch and, sure nuff, there stood a buck. Of course, he took off after the deer, right across a busy street and just vanished. I was lucky and relieved to find him after about an hour. Next day we were walking on a snowmobile trail. Two snowmobiles came flying down an embankment and headed for a highway they had to cross. Yep, there was my guy, took off like the Kentucky Derby start. Nothing I could yell would work in either case. At that point I decided to give the e-collar a go. Best thing I did. It took very little effort to correct the behavior. Only 2 hits in training and he now listens to my commands regardless of the target. The e-collar is a great tool, like any tool used wisely and correctly. Wouldn't hesitate to recommend one, but learn to use it first.


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## Maraccz (Sep 3, 2005)

Like all things we use, it is a tool. One best used to re-enforce something that the dog already knows. I have one, I love it. I don't use it often. I have seen dogs ruined on them but I have also seen wonderful sucess with them.


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