# Red Flags



## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

The thread about which questions to ask breeders got me to thinking - maybe we could start a list of things that would be considered a "red flag" when speaking to a breeder or even on a breeder's website. Things that would definitely make you seriously reconsider whether you would want to give that person any business.

I will start off with German Shepherd breeders whose websites or ads state that they "breed companion dogs only" and that their dogs are bred to be calm, laid back, gentle, family dogs with no drive or working ability. 

And breeders who use buzz words such as "rare colors" (usually meaning fault colors like blues and livers) or "old-fashioned", "oversized", etc.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Breeders who deride titling.

Breeders who call schutzhund "attack training" and unnecessary or even dangerous.

Breeders who have just a bunch of highly titled dogs they purchased to breed without keeping back any progeny to work themselves to continue their program. (This would require much more detailed questioning as to why they are operating in this manner, could be a good reason, could be just doing flashy advertising with big names and titles).

Breeders who say "My lines have NO health problems."


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Breeders who will deliver a puppy to you or meet you somewhere.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Having more than a couple of litters on the ground at once, I know sometimes timing is difficult to avoid this, but some breeders have constant, ongoing numerous planned breeding$.


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## ProjectMayhem (Nov 17, 2009)

A 'breeder' who refers to the breeding as a "rape."


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

A breeder who won't let you see the contract or warranty until after you have made your deposit on a puppy or paid in full.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Historian I sent you a PM


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Breeders who have a whole bunch of litters on the ground at the same time.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Some of this is repetitive, but for me...

- several litters on the ground at the same time
- a large spectrum of lines/type (like a Czech working line and an American show line)
- NO obvious line/type 
- buzzwords and phrases like "straight backed", "gentle giant", and words/phrases that describe temperament without really describing temperament ("he's really nice", "she's my angel baby")
- no affiliation with any competitive venues, reputable registries, breed clubs, or training clubs
- flashing PayPal or credit card links
- pictures of puppies dressed up sitting on cute blankets (sorry, it screams puppy mill)
- continuous references to "champion bloodlines"
- really unflattering photos of the dogs (like a really skinny dog blowing mats of coat standing in the mud)
- "rare" colors or references to color as if it is a selling point, or mentioning color but not mentioning anything else about the dog
- spelling mistakes ("german shephards from shutzhound lines!")
- complicated pricing hierarchies (my preferences is that all pups in a litter are the same price unless they have a genetic fault)
- requiring a certain food or supplement


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would agree with the breeders who will meet you somewhere or deliver the pup, but only if they do not offer to let you come and see the pups. 

Breeders who claim they just wanted to breed their bitch one time. 

Breeders who breed close relatives, or claim oops matings.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Breeders whose websites make claims about the breed or the breed's history that are totally or utterly untrue or nonsense. 

Like the Czech working lines breeder who claimed that all Shepherds were confiscated by Nazi armies and only a small true line of working GSDs survived in the Czech mountains. Or the breeder who claims that white GSDs can't be used for herding because the sheep view them as one of the sheep.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

A breeder that won’t readily answer your questions.
A breeder that offers a puppy for a price that seems too good to be true.
A breeder that will not let you visit the parent/parents of the litter.
A breeder that does not offer a puppy with a record of vet checks, wormings, shots etc.








A breeder that does not offer a health guarantee.








A breeder that offers you a pure bred puppy but no papers or predigree.
A breeder that discounts the importance of training and titles.








A breeder that will meet you someplace to receive your new puppy.








A breeder that claims their puppies to be good for only one specific purpose – like companion dog or show dog or protection etc.
A breeder that can’t spell “Shepard” (oh yes, I’ve seen it).









There are so many red flags – I’m sure this thread will just keeping growing.

Be careful, do your homework, check references, VISIT the breeder.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

First of all I’m not interested in a dog with a fancy lineage, I would prefer to get a rescue dog so I wouldn’t be directly or indirectly supporting a puppy mill.

If I was buying a dog from a breeder, I would want to visit the breeder and see the conditions that the dogs were being kept in and I would like to spend some time to make sure it’s not a front. I would be reluctant to buy a dog from a breeder unless I knew someone else that did buy one and had a good experience.

Regretfully there are some people out there that are nothing more than dog brokers and puppy mills. Apparently many of them don’t really care about the dogs, they just want money.

From what I understand there is more problem with the lap dog breeds; some of them are smuggled into this country from other countries that have been kept in horrible conditions, often they get sick and die before they even get to a broker, and many of them that are sold die shortly after they are purchased or have lifelong health issues because they were malnourished, 

I’ve heard some times that even so-called reputable breeders are used as a front for brokers and puppy mills. I would ask take a tour of the breeders facility as I said before to make sure that the living conditions were good but also to monitor the interaction between the dogs and the breeder. To make sure that the breeder knows the dogs names and that the dogs respond to the owner; and to make sure that the dogs are well socialized.

I’ve only been to two breeders of GSDs. 

1) The first GSD I bought was what I would consider a beginner puppy mill. It was just an inexperienced person that thought he could get rich by getting a male and female GSD breeding them and selling the puppies. The puppies were about six months old and the “breeder” said they had never been out of the basement. The basement had a dirt floor only one light and one window with no heat or ventilation. None of the puppies had any training. We bought the runt of the litter, she was the smallest and the scariest of the litter. She didn’t have a name and wasn’t housebroken. When we took her into our house the first time the refrigerator turned on and made a click and a wurr sound; she was so terrified she urinated on the floor. She ended up being a great dog; but she almost always was scared almost borderline paranoid, she seemed to have slightly early and severe dysphasia/arthritis. The breeder claimed that he wasn’t going to breed anymore because he lost money breeding and raising the dogs and people were not as eager to buy them as he anticipated.

2) The second dog I bought from a breeder, was strangely enough from an ad in the newspaper that made no mention of him being a breeder. The man was breeding the dogs out of love or the breed. He had a small kennel that looked like a small barn with stalls for several dogs but there were no doors on the stalls and there was an opening in the barn and so the dogs could come and go as they please. There was a small run by the barn is larger than my yard. The kennel/barn was surrounded by as secondary fence that enclosed most of the breeder’s yard, it was probably more than an acre of fenced in area. He said he never had more than 20 dogs at a time. There was grass in most of the yard. The floor the barn and most of the area between the barn and the House was paved and decked. The yard was well picked up. He said that he had two dogs that he considered his own personal pets and they always stayed inside; but he rotated and tried to let two other dogs stay in the house each night; because he couldn’t handle more than four dogs in the house at a time. But this way all of the dogs learned to be both outside dogs and inside dogs. I could tell by the way all the dogs interacted with him and the rest of the family that it was not a front. Regretfully he had just had a heart attack and had bypass surgery so he had to get rid of most of his dogs because he no longer could handle doing all the work. Meanwhile his wife and kids were filling in; they were doing a good job but it was still really too much for them. The dog we got from them was the runt of the litter, she was shy and smaller than the rest but she was in very good physical and mental shape. She knew her name and had basic discipline (come, stay, sit and no) and was already housetrained.

I just got dumb lucky stumbling onto that hobbyist GSD breeder that really loved his dogs and it was apparent by all the work, love and training that he had put into his dogs. I could tell he knew what he was doing with his dogs. The previous breeder (the basement breeder) didn’t seem to have a clue what he was doing and didn’t seem to care very much for the dogs. The difference between the two “breeders” was like night and day.

After hearing some of the stories about puppy mills and puppy brokers; I haven’t bought a dog from a breeder again. All the dogs I’ve had since then have been rescues.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Sometimes finding a reputable/good breeder is as easy as:
....STOP....LOOK....& LISTEN....
1st) STOP....Don't buy the first puppy you see.
Look for particular Breeders that are breeding the type of dog that you are looking for.
2nd) LOOK.....If you are looking for a "Sport Dog", then go to the trials in your area. Subscribe to the club/membership that sponsers publications of the particular dogs & breeders you are interested in, and their accomplishments.
....If you are looking for a "Show Dog", do the same! Go to the shows in your surrounding areas. Take note of what dogs from what breeders are doing well. Subscribe to the membership/club that publishes the results. Go to the Sieger Shows or AKC Shows.
....BIGGER BREEDER doesn't mean....BETTER DOGS!
After all......if you have 15+ dogs entered in a show....odds are...you will/must do well!!!
3rd) LISTEN.....Ask questions, ask spectators at the events, ask for references.
Make sure the "budget" you have allowed yourself, is realistic in what you actually are wanting. 8 week old puppies in the extreme price ranges of $3000 + is ridiculous! I'm a breeder, and I would NEVER pay such a price!.......but also....if your budget is unrealistically low..don't expect the next VA, BOB or BSP. (be fair).
Too many buyers are paying for a "Kennel name"....not the quality of the individual puppy.
Make sure your breeder actually "participates" in the events/sports/work that they profess, their dogs are "specialized" in.
JMO
Robin


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

the first red flag for me is "no health testing"


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: HistorianOr the breeder who claims that white GSDs can't be used for herding because the sheep view them as one of the sheep.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A breeder that will sell two puppies at the same time to the same person. Breeders that allow people to pick their own pup. Breeders that have a "first come first served" system for new owners.

Reasons these are red flags if you are new to buying from a breeder: 

Two puppies together: bad idea! One puppy is an insane amount of work. Two puppies is not twice the insane amount of work, but more like FOUR times that much work. Pups need TONS of One-on-one time to bond to people, in order to develop their innate desire to please you, to work for you. Lack of people-bonding can cause issues with training, with recall, with developing respect to humans. Ideally, if you want two puppies, they should only be allowed about an hour a day of supervised play together, and be separated and give hours of individual interaction until they are much older. How many people know this and have the time, energy and resources to carry this through? 

A good breeder will screen the new owners and get to know them and their expectations and life-styles and match the right puppy to the right owner. Many people "pick" the most energetic, boisterous pup for themselves, and puppy ends up being too much dog, and next is dumped at the shelter because "it is too playful and has too much energy, knocks the kids over in play". 

A good breeder is not afraid to say "No" to potential owners if they feel that there is no good match in the litter for them. I'd rather deal with an honest breeder who turns me down for whatever reason, than one where I stand in line and get a pup when it is my turn, the breeder not caring about what kind of home the pup goes to.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Trying not to be repetitive:

Some minor things...

- A breeder who can't spell "German Shepherd" correctly.
- A breeder who smack-talks: showing, titling, working, other breeders, and reputable registeries
- A breeder (in the U.S.) who registers their dogs via alternate registries such as Continental Kennel Club, APRI, etc. 
- A breeder who has rebuttals on their site to disprove "rumors" spread about them 
- A breeder using terms like "pure blooded" or "full breed."
- Phrases like..."first come, first served"


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomBreeders who will deliver a puppy to you or meet you somewhere.


Why is this a red flag? With our G litter, 3 went to the Columbus and Chicago area. We had done the selection, updated the new owners and instead of flying or them driving, Gabor was going up for doing helperwork at Indy and met everyone at OG Indy.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidA good breeder is not afraid to say "No" to potential owners if they feel that there is no good match in the litter for them. I'd rather deal with an honest breeder who turns me down for whatever reason, than one where I stand in line and get a pup when it is my turn, the breeder not caring about what kind of home the pup goes to.










I have said no a lot of times


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomBreeders who will deliver a puppy to you or meet you somewhere.
> ...


I think it's more in terms of the breeder trying to avoid the buyers coming to their house. It's one thing if you are doing the family a favor because you are already traveling (that is how several of my dog's siblings were delivered, some went to Ohio and we were going that way down to Kentucky anyway), but it's another thing if the breeder insists, not because they are trying to do a favor, but they don't want anyone to see the home or kennel. Like if I found a good breeder in my area and yet they wanted to meet at a park even though their house is the same distance, that would be sending up red flags.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I delivered a puppy to someone yesterday that was two hours away....I'm laughing at half of this wisdom!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But clifton, if someone lived a few blocks away and you had arranged for the pup to go home on X-date, they wanted to come meet the dam and your other dogs, would it not be really odd to suggest that the person meet you at a park or at the mall instead? The red flag is not a breeder that will do someone a very nice favor and deliver a pup, but believe it or not there are breeders who are (rightfully) ashamed of their dogs' living conditions and don't want buyers near the kennel, home, or the dogs.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I agree with it in the context that Lies is mentioning. 

If your breeder lives close to you, but always has excuses why you cannot met the sire and dam, or see the puppies, or pick the puppy up, that's a very different situation than if the breeder offers to drop the pup off because he's already on his way someplace.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: HistorianI agree with it in the context that Lies is mentioning.
> 
> If your breeder lives close to you, but always has excuses why you cannot met the sire and dam, or see the puppies, or pick the puppy up, that's a very different situation than if the breeder offers to drop the pup off because he's already on his way someplace.


Yes, that is exactly what I meant - not a breeder who is willing to occasionally deliver a puppy as a convenience to they buyer, but a breeder who ALWAYS has the buyer meet them somewhere and does not ever allow anyone to come meet the puppies and parent/s on site. 

Also, the people on this thread who have stated that they've done this before are breeders who train and title their dogs. They're well known and have a good reputation, not some random person out of the newspaper, off craigslist, or a website.


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

A breeder who won't let you see the dam.

It can't be stressed enough - having several litters on the ground, more than just a one time "timing" thing.

Breeders who talk the talk but don't walk the walk (tell everyone they should title, etc their dogs but don't do it themselves).


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

A breeder that gets offended when you ask if you can see the sire and dam's vet records. Or says, she has none. The dogs only get vaccinated, but otherwise, are perfectly healthy and never need to go to the vet. (I had one breeder get really offended, and one tell her dogs never need to go to the vet. Miracle dogs, I guess? )

Breeders who can't give you specific information about why they bred THIS sire to THAT bitch; what they hope to get out of the litter. ("They're both nice dogs" doesn't cut it).

Scattershot health testing. I had a breeder tell me that she only tests every other generation and that's sufficient. Uh... no... 

Advertising based on accomplishments of the dogs in pedigree, but not the sire and bitch. It's nice that the great great grandparents of the pups are all ScH IIIs, but what about the sire and bitch? 

Breeders that badmouth other breeders. It's one thing to be honest and say "well, I know that Linda doesn't do X, but I do X because I think it's the right thing to do because........" Or even to say, "In addition to looking at Linda's pups, why don't you check out Breeders X, Y &Z and consider looking for these qualities" (if Linda is a BYB or a puppy mill). But when a breeder badmouths another breeder and it feels like the only reason she's doing so is because she wants you to buy HER pups, that breeder isn't being professional. And people who are unprofessional at one thing are often unprofessional at numerous things. 

So a breeder that educates is fine. But a breeder that badmouths, eh, move on.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

What do you mean "vet records"? I vaccinate my own dogs.
My dogs get tested for HeartWorm, parasites...etc...
I have a tech that comes to my house and draws blood...?
My dogs are under my personal account with both my vets.....and they only VISIT the Vet Practice when absolutely needed.
Puppies go for their wellness check at 7 weeks old, ...adults go before any large show or before a flight to Germany.
I don't have "vet records" ....we have shot records, blood test results (when required), proof of rabies, xray results, ets.... But seriously, why else would you subject your dog to a Vet Clininc?
So I guess, I would disagree.....mine don't go unless absolutely needed.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Lies, read the original post that you highlighted. Now everybody is coming out of the woodwork with a clarifcation of what it means. This is after Sue and I question it being a red flag. 
My problem is many novices read these posts and they see the initial statement. Taken at face value it paints a negative picture of many"reputable"(Agh...I hate that word) breeders, since there was no initial clarification. I also give my dogs their shots and do not believe in any additional vaccinations (other than rabies) after the puppy shots. Guess that really makes me "unreputable". LOL!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sorry Clifton, poor choice of words - I guess I should have said "Breeders who will _ONLY_ deliver a puppy to you or meet you somewhere". 

Since it was my post that was quoted I think I can clarify what I meant, yes? Don't think that qualifies as "coming out of the woodwork with a clarification".







All of these things people are mentioning are part of a bigger picture, each one in and of itself may not mean anything, but when there are several of them, especially when you're talking about a breeder who you don't know anything about other than an ad somewhere or a pretty website, then yes, it IS a red flag. That doesn't necessarily mean they're a bad breeder, but it does merit some additional checking and further research, which is always prudent. I don't think it's unreasonable to point that out, especially for those novices who have no idea what to look for, or what to watch out for. Should we be telling them that they should not be at all concerned about a breeder who insists on meeting at a local parking lot to exchange cash for a puppy?

The suggestions posted in this thread are general guidelines, that's all, not hard and fast rules. I really don't get why people are getting all worked up over it.


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

I feel it is important that you go and see a breders facility. How do you know how the pup's are being raised and what they are being fed. Also what kind of condition the Sire and the Dam are in espcially the Dam.
Get to meet the breeder and find out waht type of person you are dealing with.
This will give you peace of mind and give you first hand information.

If a breeder tells you that you dont have to come all the way here I'll meet you somewhere certinally would be a red flg to me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Not getting worked up, but now its meeting in the parking lot as clarification. None of that was present at first. So, my point is the breeders who do this and are good how does the novice "know" you meant the parking lot variety??? I understand your intent....but the wording as you acknowledged did not paint that picture. JMO....its no big thing. Shoot the last two pups I have had sent to me in the last year I have neven met the owners, but the dogs are very nice. Yes, I did my homework, but it was based on what I wanted not who they were. [heck], Fero's breeder doesn't even have a website like myself for me to see both parents and I have never seen pic of mother yet....Not saying everybody has my knowledge base, but I am saying that these breeders may have been painted with a red flag, because somebody saw the red flag statement, but being novice don't know enough to realize these are good breeders. Hey, maybe its my not conforming to this new generation of doing things..LOL...Back in the day people (when everybody was basically BYB) wouldn't meet half these criteria and it seemed you got a better dog on average than what people get today. So I just wonder if all this stuff really means anything????After all, if it takes a knowledgeable breeder to get good dogs and all these safeguards are in place why aren't the dogs better on average??????? Hard for me to figure out!!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Lies, read the original post that you highlighted. Now everybody is coming out of the woodwork with a clarifcation of what it means. This is after Sue and I question it being a red flag.
> My problem is many novices read these posts and they see the initial statement. Taken at face value it paints a negative picture of many"reputable"(Agh...I hate that word) breeders, since there was no initial clarification. I also give my dogs their shots and do not believe in any additional vaccinations (other than rabies) after the puppy shots. Guess that really makes me "unreputable". LOL!!


Sure novices may read it, hence why multiple people have elaborated and clarified. I still stand by what she meant to say. I would never consider a breeder who did not allow me to see the dogs and the facilities (but at the same time I do not expect anyone to allow potential buyers to drop by at any time, I've heard of some puppy buyers being really disrespectful about just "dropping in" anytime they feel like it).

As for vaccinations, I think that goes person by person. That would never be a reason for me not to consider a breeder, unless the breeder was trying to mandate how I would feed, vaccinate, care for the puppy. I use a different vaccine protocol than my breeder and it's not a problem. Part of it is that we have a different county law.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

My posted response is similar......we don't have a working website, and we have very nice dogs and breedings.
We don't have per say "Vet records", but the dogs are vaccinated and kept healthy....
We've bought many dogs thru the years that were "picture & pedigree" only....some were super...a couple not.
When people post their opinions on "criteria" to be met for breeders, they don't take into consideration.....there ARE great breeders & dogs, that just might not meet all aspects of the "list".
Novice or new GSD owners will take what is written at face value, and could possibly miss the opportunity to own a great dog from an ethical breeder.......
True knowledge is learned from many years, it is not "instantly earned" by reading.
My post is not meant to offend, as I am not offended or angry....it's meant to bring some ideas to reality.
Respectfully,
Robin


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

Clifton I am not talking about you. You have an excellent reputation and I would not hesitate to get a pup from you.

The key phrase you mentioned is your knowledge base. The average puppy buyer on this forum does not have your knowledge and is really at risk meeting an unknown breeder somewhere in the middle of nowhere picking up their pup.
How many posts do we see on this forum that ask what about this breeder or that breeder? They are screaming help me help me please.

My reference for breeders is Connie from Spartanville Shepheds. When I was in the market for a pup she was after me constantly to come out to her facility and see her dogs and her kennel. Connie lives in Michigan I live in New Hampshire. She felt it was that important. She sent me litteraly hundreds of picures of her dogs pups and her kennel and grounds without me asking and tons of references plus tons of other information. This is why Connie is the standard I judge breeders from. Bottom line is she cares not only about her dogs but you the buyer and goes the extra mile to make you feel completely comfortable.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomA breeder that gets offended when you ask if you can see the sire and dam's vet records. Or says, she has none. The dogs only get vaccinated, but otherwise, are perfectly healthy and never need to go to the vet. (I had one breeder get really offended, and one tell her dogs never need to go to the vet. Miracle dogs, I guess? )


This is an interesting one.

My dogs pretty much never go to the vet either. The only regular trips they make to the vet are to get heartworm checks every spring and rabies shots every 3 years. Then of course a few trips when they're younger for their x-rays and health testing, and bitches go in for a pre-breeding check up and brucelosis test before mating if they're getting bred that season. But that's about it. We follow a minimal vaccination protocol, and do our own vaccinations for everything but rabies. We're lucky that our dogs are healthy without issues needing them to go to the vet, and it's a very rare situation (maybe once every few years) when someone is injurred enough to go to the vet. Of course in the past year our seniors started needing more vet trips than usual, but the younger dogs that make up our breeding stock pretty much never go to the vet. 

I'd have no problem sharing my vet's contact info and letting someone call them to ask about our dogs, but in terms of "records" there really aren't any. So what specifically would someone wanting vet records be looking for? I don't think a dog who doesn't have to go to the vet often is a "miracle" dog. I think it's the way things should be and don't understand dogs not needing regular vet care being a red flag?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I too find that interesting. I also do my own vaccinating except for rabies. They have to have their yearly HW test, bitches get checked before breeding and their brucelosis test, puppies get a physical and the young dogs x-rays and other health testing. I would consider this a sign of healthy dogs and not a red flag.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

When I get a dog that only needs yearly checks for HW etc my vet always says this is the way it is supposed to be. Now I guess someone could ask to see records from the vet to substantiate the lack of issues, sure. 


I had a breeder who claimed overall and generally good health in her lines. She gave me her vets number to call so I could confirm his lack of findings in the dogs over the years with the dogs she had.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

In the context of asking a breeder to see "vet records", I think what people want to know are things such as - 

- Are the parents current on rabies? Is there proof?
- Are the parents current on shots? Is there proof? 
- If the breeder's vaccine schedule is different or they only give initial shots - when were those done? Is there proof? Why are you vaccinating on the schedule you use? Is there a benefit to that?
- Was any health testing done prior to breeding? Is there proof?
- Did you ever do OFFA / PennHip? Can I see the X-rays? Rating?

Those are the kinds of things people should be able to ask about and breeders should be able to provide information on. It doesn't matter if you take your dog to the vet clinic for shots or do the shots at home - but it does matter that you have records of these things being done and that you are willing to share them.

In my experience, only breeders who do no shots and no health testing because it's "too expensive", "too inconvenient", "cuts into profits", etc. etc. are the ones that get offended at being asked to show proof of rabies, OFFA results, etc.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Thanks Chris for clarifying what I meant.









All of the explanations given by the breeders above are sufficient. HW meds don't appear out of the blue. Nor do xrays or vaccines. Somewhere, there should be proof. If a breeder doesn't have these, a vet I can speak with, or a very good explanation why not, it's a red flag. 

Every reputable breeder I've dealt with wants to know who MY vet is (with address, phone number, etc). I presume they will call her. My last breeder wanted a * written * recommendation from my vet. 

Why wouldn't I check out a breeder as well as you check me out? It seems only fair that the same criteria applies.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

3K9Mom,

The same criteria for both buyers and sellers alike! Nicely put...&
clearly understood!


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## Jagenstadt (Feb 1, 2004)

My dogs are not vaccinated after their rabies shot at 6 months of age unless I have no choice when shipping internationally for a breeding (Agricultural Dept. is tough with International Health Certificates).
* I only go to the Vet for Health Certifications *
- Hip/Elbow xrays (O.F.A./PennHIP) Cardiac-Patella-Thyroid-CERF-von Willebrands-Brucellosis-DM screening.
- Progesterone timing.
- Pre-whelping xrays.
- Puppies 1st inoculations and Health Certificates.
* My dogs have NEVER been to the vet because of illness or injury (knock on wood). 
- I worm them all 3x a year and they get monthly HeartGuard +.
- Proper nutrition, exercise (mental & physical stimulation), healthy genetics, common sense and a little TLC is all they need.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:Having more than a couple of litters on the ground at once, I know sometimes timing is difficult to avoid this...


Akbar's breeder had this happened once, it just so happened that the females ALL had their heats at the SAME time. It hasn't happened again since but at that time, those females that she was planning to breed just happened to be in heat all at the same time, within days of each other so it couldn't be avoided.


But I think it's bad if it happened many times, not just once or twice but over and over and over like a puppy mill.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They usually do go into heat at the same time, one triggers another, you don't have to breed just because the bitch went into heat. Usually you plan several months ahead for the right match. Though as you say, Missy...millers have other rea$on$.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think that buyers also need to be responsible and have their puppy vetted ASAP just to make sure everything checks out. Nikon's breeder asked that I bring him to my vet within 2-3 days. This way, a buyer cannot take their puppy to the dog park at 9 weeks and then blame the breeder if he comes down with parvo, if he was seen by the buyer's own vet. When the breeder makes this suggestion (and some even require it), it shows me that they have nothing to hide and stand behind their breedings. I was also sent home with some Panacur and canned food for a final round of puppy-deworming. Nikon was cleared by my vet and was a perfectly healthy puppy with great poops to boot, lol. My breeder's husband is a vet, yet she takes her puppies to a different vet so that no one can claim there is an bias. I find that very respectable. As far as the adult dogs, I'm with Chris, I did not request to see any vet papers, but their registration numbers make it very easy to check OFAs/a-stamps and such.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

I thought of another one...

- when you are inquiring about a litter to the breeder, and the breeder won't give you the registered names of sire and dam. Breeder only refers to the dogs by a call name, or just refers to them by what they do (ex: "the schutzhund sire" or "the obedience sire.")

(Yes...I have run across at least two "breeders" who get incredibly offended when you tell them you'd like to know the dogs' registered names as you'd like to check out the pedigree on them.)


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:They usually do go into heat at the same time, one triggers another, you don't have to breed just because the bitch went into heat. Usually you plan several months ahead for the right match. Though as you say, Missy...millers have other rea$on$.


Except she had them planned to be bred months prior but was not expecting them to go in heat all at once, they were suppose to be a few months apart.







Weird how some things work out, lol.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me it's not really a red flag. There's a difference between bitches going into heat at the same time and breedings having been lined up months or even a year in advance vs. a kennel with 3, 4, 5, 6...litters on the ground at once, all out in kennels basically being auctioned off on a web site. As long as the bitches and puppies are all getting the same level of care, I don't have a problem with their occasionally being two litters. I've known of breedings planned over a year in advance, an in Germany they limit how many breedings a stud can do within a given time frame so if they've reserved a spot for your bitch within a certain time frame you don't want to cancel if that's really the breeding you want. IMO it should be about doing the best pairings that achieve the goals of the program, and not just breeding whichever female is in heat at a convenient time. I like to get a puppy that was born and raised in a home environment and has had the early neurological stimulation. Whether there is one litter with 10 puppies and two litters with 5 puppies is not as important to me.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Right that is what I meant, two litters, even three at once if it was previously planned. BUT the kennels that have 15 upcoming or ongoing litters in a 3 month span...give me a break, that isn't about bettering the breed at all. How can they even know how the progeny developes when they have pups going every which way.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I personally always check out the breeders home/facility, look and temperment of the parents, and shot records for pups and parents. I vaccinate at home except rabies, but I still have a record of that. If a breeder would not agree to that it would be a no no for me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlRight that is what I meant, two litters, even three at once if it was previously planned. BUT the kennels that have 15 upcoming or ongoing litters in a 3 month span...give me a break, that isn't about bettering the breed at all. How can they even know how the progeny developes when they have pups going every which way.


Or a barn full of bitches all being bred to the *same* male. Sure...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why I never have spring litters: I do not want to have more than one litter at a time, so when the herd effect happens, I breed the one that I most want to have puppies, and she misses. And I do not have a spring litter. 

I think that if you have more than one litter at a time, you need to have a set up that is condusive to more than one litter, and a person or people with the time to properly care and socialize the pups. 

It is definitely something that would raise more questions, but not necessarily make me go eslewhere.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: crhuerta
> We've bought many dogs thru the years that were "picture & pedigree" only....some were super...a couple not.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Robin


I do believe that statement discredits the breeders that do have some red flags, even if they are decent.








I don't see why new buyers shouldn't be looking for these red flags. 
If you're going to drop $1500 on a puppy, I would expect the puppy to be "super" or, at least come from a breeder that cares enough to match you with a "super" puppy depending on your lifestyle.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

> Quote:I don't see why new buyers shouldn't be looking for these red flags.
> If you're going to drop $1500 on a puppy, I would expect the puppy to be "super" or, at least come from a breeder that cares enough to match you with a "super" puppy depending on your lifestyle.


Exactly.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

How does my statement discredit anything?
Many dogs/puppies are sold & purchased without actual "sight & hands on" meeting......
When/If.. I purchase a puppy from another country or from as far...( as say)...California, I have had the option of not purchasing/importing or believing after speaking to the breeder that the puppy/dog IS what I am expecting!?
Most times the dog/puppy is....but there have been times it has not. It is the chance that I have chosen to take. No matter what the $cost was.
My post is simple........do not "ommit" taking the chance of purchasing a puppy from a decent breeder, just because they may not have "fullfilled" every aspect of some forum's "breeder list" of "must haves & do's".....
Sometimes...you have to take a chance...
JMO


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I just took that exact chance...2 mos ago.....
I am extremely pleased with my new puppy!....she is a great addition to our own future breeding program.
I bought her... "actual" sight un-seen, pictures and pedigree only.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

LOL big time...I am going to deliver a puppy 2 hours away today to a man that I have never met. He is going to get a very nice puppy, I am sure of that. Fortunately, he didn't see get caught by the red flag!!!
Never judge a book by its color unless it's "read."


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have bought a few dogs from only pictures/pedigree/haven't met the breeder in person and have to say I haven't had a problem yet. I've always gotten exactly what I wanted. 

Tho ideally I would love to meet breeder/dogs involved, sometimes it isn't possible, especially when shipping in a dog. I would, and most likely will do it again))


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: crhuertaI just took that exact chance...2 mos ago.....
> I am extremely pleased with my new puppy!....she is a great addition to our own future breeding program.
> I bought her... "actual" sight un-seen, pictures and pedigree only.


I have never done that!!!

...because I don't have the money to ship here the pup I dream of yet, LOL!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think it's a good idea to post stuff like this.. if it makes people stop and think or be a little more cautious.. Is this list the be all, end all for what is correct or not, no.. Ultimately in the end its up to the individual person(s) to do what's best for them.. As I know what my preferences are or what I like to see is gonna be completely different than the next..

And for everyone that's had a great experience getting a dog sight unseen, there's a hundred more experiences of people that have been ripped off or taken for a ride..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Really?!?!?!...Here's where I get dense again...95% of the people who buy dogs from Europe buy them sight unseen...this market flourishes and has been and continues to. Many people are on there third, fourth, fifth dogs being imported. So if the the odds are so unbalanced as to being ripped off or taken for a ride sight unseen...then why hasn't this practice dried up and why are people multiple users. Doesn't make sense to me, but hey what do I know!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Yes and a lot of those people probably have experience or connections!! Or could be buying from a kennel/broker that has a good reputation.. Or better yet has ties to people over seas that know where to go..


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

So you just find out who has a good reputation...you ask people who have experience and then you decide who you will trust...


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

kingston ^^ is right,


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

BUT, they are still buying dogs sight unseen. And its a big booming business....so its not the practice of buying sight unseen that is at fault, but rather people buying badly bred dogs and that can happen sight seen or unseen.JMO


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My friend imported three young males from Germany about two years ago. She went there and has ties over there, came from there originally and has family over there. The said she agreed to one of them just by the pedigree and is happy as a lark, but she definitely met him before he was shipped. 

But she has also said there is a lot of garbage overseas too, just like here. I think people see the word "import" and immedieately think the dog or pup will be a quality dog. I think people jack prices up and put "import lines" or "champion lines" in the ad or on the website. "Champion lines" means exactly what???? Does it mean that every dog in the pedigree is a champion? I think not. 
Can it mean that there was one or two Champions in the last six generations? Maybe. In fact, one could say "Champion Lines" for a dog whose great grandfather sired a champion, but the champion was never actually used. 

"Import lines" is just as bad in my opinion. It could be that the sire and dam are imported, it could be that there was an import somewhere back there. 

I think it is a bit of a red flag if the breeder cannot tell you anything about the dogs back there, I mean, something more than, that dog was imported from Germany.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

There are also breeders that buy dogs cheap in Germany (often they have genetic problems and such), bring them here, then misrepresent them and sell puppies for thousands of dollars. This is all knowingly, as in, they knew why the breeding dog was so cheap, and now like Sue says market puppies based on the "champion import lines".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It all boils down to the buyer doing research! I don't get why more people don't do basic research, when the dog will live with them(if they are lucky) for the next 15 years!
Those key words "champion, world class, etc" mean nothing to me.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Onyx girl....that's exactly what I'm trying to say....its not the process but the knowledge or lack of knowledge. And if you don't have the knowledge, find somebody you respect or has a proven track record and get advice on procuring a good dog. JMO


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I have done well with breeders that some people would say there are Red Flags. 

I will start with Cheyenne she was purchased on pics and pedigree, the breeder bred for LS's she also had King Shepherds. Cheyenne is a cross of german showlines and BYB. She is a very very nice dog, good health, nice nerve. But I had an idea on what I should expect based on the Pedigree. 

DeeDee I went to the breeder and saw the pups, I had seen pictures, I knew she was 1/2 AM line and 1/2 show. I should have done my research a bit more on the AM line, but she still had potential until the sound sensitivity issues started and I am not 100% sure it wasn't from Vaccine reaction.

Lakota purchased by pict, pedigree and talking with the kennel where he was whelped. 1/2 German Showline and 1/2 German working lines. Nice nice dog, great nerve. Has bad elbows and allergies but still temperament everything I want. This was a place that would have raised red flags, but I knew what I was getting before I went to the air port to get my boy.

Raya I knew the pedigree, saw pictures, went and saw her in person. Waited a few days until I was sure I wanted to add a 4th dog to the house. She is also a nice dog.

So I have mixed results, but I think that at times humans set themselves up to be disappointed. They are expecting the perfect pup. I have nice dogs, good dogs but I have yet to have the perfect dog. 

Val


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## Baby Byron (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidBreeders that allow people to pick their own pup.


I would say this one could be a case-by-case. I've had GSDs for 25+ years and know exactly the kind of dog I love and want every time I'm getting a new one. So I, for one, won't sign on the dotted line of a breeder-picked program. For a 1st time GSD owner, even a first time GSD and actual first time dog owner, then it's a different story.

Ana


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I did temp testing on my litter and all save one were mostly threes-- middle of the road pups. The one went to an obedience trainer, and previous GSD breeder. I made suggestions, and explained the temperament test and my own observations, but did let people pick their pup. 

I think that with a working line dog, that may be more of an issue. If you have a relatively even litter, than you can give your buyers more of a choice.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think that when people say "pick their own pup" they are talking about the breeders who don't care WHICH pup you take, as long as you take one of the little monsters off their hands. and your check clears, of course....
You hear about it a lot and most breeders/savvy dog people know it's a bad idea. Wishy washy owners who end up with a dominant pup because "he walked right up and demanded attention. we knew he wanted to go home with us" most people don't know ANYTHING about dogs. Those breeders don't usually know a whole lot more about temperament than the people who are buying the dogs, though.

In Selzer's situation, she knew that any of the pups would do ok in that person's home. So, it's not like she was saying "take whichever you want" I'm sure that if one of the pups was NOT right, she would have said "choose between these, but that pup over there isn't right for you" Am I correct?

Rayden's breeder did this. After we met the pups, spent some time interacting with them and even more time talking with her about what we were looking for, she asked us if any of the pups stood out to us. We told her which ones we liked (Rayden was our #1 choice) and then the 3 of us discussed the pros/cons of each pup and how it would fit with us. 
We also talked about which pups were definitely NOT for us. She had this little bitch that was just *heck* on paws and smart. At 6 weeks old, she was climbing up and unlatching the gate to the front porch when the pups/mom were out there for sunshine. And she was definitely an alpha dog - when she walked through the litter, all the puppies just stepped out of her way. She had an aura about her that just said "I am the Queen" Way too much dog for us at the time, but no matter what you couldn't help but be impressed by her!


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I think different red flags mean different things to different people. I would buy from someone that someone else may not. I personally won't buy from someone that has a mass amount of dogs and puppies at the same time....like over 20 all together, puppies included. BUT that would also depend on the lines and breeder as well. 

It's a personal choice and decision in the end. 

Courtney


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Saw this today on a breeder's website:

"We have been breeding AKC registered Alaskan Malamutes, German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and Shiba Inus for eleven years. Our goal is to produce sound, healthy puppies with good temperaments, looks, and pedigrees.

We go to great lengths to ensure the health and happiness of our dogs. Our bloodlines are closely monitored so inbreeding is never a problem. And, because our facilities have been inspected by the American Kennel Club, you can be assured that all our dogs are in the best of health."

So many red flags there I don't know where to begin.
​


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