# Treats vs. Praise vs. Clicker?



## xArsAmatoria (Jan 9, 2011)

What do you think is the best reinforcement to train a GSD, and why? I didn't see another thread like this, but if there is one, feel free to direct me.

I'm about to get my first shepherd puppy and am definitely looking into training him well. He's only five weeks so I have time to prepare. I am planning on taking him to obedience classes, but not until he's older. In the meantime, I want to work on basic commands (sit, stay, off, lay down, leave it, not pulling on the leash, things like that). Aside from those commands, are there others that you taught your puppy? Is "heel" too complicated for a young pup? (I guess I have a few more questions than just "which training method"   ) 

I have always heard that sheperds respond best to praise, being that they are working dogs and strive to please you. However, I've noticed most of you prefer using treats, and a good amount of you use clickers. Why is that? What do you feel the benefits are of your preferred method of training?

Note: I am not undermining the different methods, I am simply trying to determine what route I will take for my pup! :] 

Any and all input is greatly appreciated.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I think the best thing is to see what your dog likes best. I used treats for Ozzy at first. He liked them, but they weren't very high in value. I moved up to praise and got better results from him. Now he almost never gets treats, simply for the fact that he doesn't really prefer them. 

The thing he values MOST is his ball. He will do ANYTHING for his ball, and it's the tool I use to train him. I pair it with praise and I can probably train him to do anything with those two things. I'm pretty sure there are many dogs who wouldn't do jack for you with just a ball and praise. LOL 

Just see what your pup likes.


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## xArsAmatoria (Jan 9, 2011)

Yeah, I guess that should've been common sense, haha. Thanks though, that really does make a lot of sense! (go figure)

I think I just need to realize that training doesn't have to be such a strict science! I've just never really formally "trained" a dog before so it's all pretty new to me. (And I just realized I posted this in the wrong forum, duhhh) I'm so worried about doing something wrong, but I guess me and my Dallas will have to learn together.

We have two smaller dogs, but they have been pretty well-behaved from the get-go. No formal training, no sitting around for hours, they just kind of got the hang of everything themselves. Then again, small dogs don't really NEED as much training as a big gangly GSD pup 
And my previous large dogs, we had when I was a young girl, so I wasn't too involved in their training.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I did a lot of reading and research and watched a lot of videos and all kinds of things before I brought home Ozzy. I expected the whole puppy raising and training processes to be completely different than what they turned out to be. It was actually a lot easier than I thought it was going to be (thankfully!) Hopefully it will be for you too. 
Everything that you read are just generalizations and help prepare you, but your pup is going to teach you just as much as you're going to teach him.


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## xArsAmatoria (Jan 9, 2011)

That's exactly how I feel and exactly what I'm doing, haha! I'm glad it turned out well for you, I hope it does for me, too. Thanks  You are definitely helping to ease my mind a bit, so it is much appreciated.

Dallas's parents seem extremely intelligent and they obey some pretty advanced commands, so hopefully he will be able to follow in their footsteps. Although, I do know that shepherd intelligence can definitely be a double-edged sword, sometimes!


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I started Madix out with clicker and treating. We were just discussing this at training today actually. The benefits of the clicker is the pup knows the treat will follow shortly and it's a very precise marker for when the correct behavior is done. It also helps to signal the handler when to treat and mark because the "correct" behavior has to be very clear in the mind before being able to click. 

I then moved from clicker/treat to a verbal marker (because it's way easier than trying to remember a clicker all the time) and a toy - because my dog is more toy driven than treat driven and also, again, because it's way easier to have toys with me all the time than an endless supply of treats.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Most dogs start off better with treats. Most love food, so it comes natural. Human food or better rewards are most satisfying and rewarding. Praise is a great bridge when you're fading food. Some dogs are motivated more by toys, so you'd have to use toys/play as a reward. The clicker is NOT a reward or motivator. It is a marker used in combination with food/treat/motivation for your dog to help it learn. I highly recommend starting with the clicker and treats for your pup. He'll learn quick. 

As for what I taught my dog as a puppy- sit, down, stay(2-3mins), come, his name, off, leave it, drop it, bedtime (kennel command), high five, shake, other paw, and bang. All before 6 months old. Then I worked on more complex commands like finish, heel, german commands, spining, and fronting.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Definitely depends on the individual dog. My favorite thing to train with is a ball on a string. My GSD loves treats, but I get more focus with a ball so I can work through distractions better. The ball also lasts a lot longer than a treat, and I can deliver the reward faster with a toy than with a treat. The only downside is when he's more focused on the ball instead of me, the ball giver, and his obedience ends up being a bit chaotic at first until I can get him into the right state of mind. I usually use treats when I'm in the beginning stages of teaching a behavior, then I switch to a ball to reinforce behavior and work through distractions.

My dog absolutely would not be able to be trained with praise alone. At obedience training, my dog was actually used as an example of dogs that _don't_ respond to praise :blush:. I only use praise("good") as a verbal marker, the praise itself is not a reward.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Threads about clicker training: German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results


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## xArsAmatoria (Jan 9, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Threads about clicker training: German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results


Thanks for that, I'm still getting used to how this forum is organized. Might I add that I saw your Halo in the sables pic thread... What an absolutely beautiful dog!!



Like I said, I am pretty new to any formal training so I didn't know the clicker was to be used in conjunction with something. I do like the idea that it's much more precise than anything else, so I think I'm going to start off with that. I can probably just keep one at home and one in my handbag for any on-the-go purposes. As for treats vs praise, I guess I'll have to experiment with both  are there any brands of treats that you guys prefer? I do know what food guidelines to look for, for both puppies and adults, but I heard of a brand that is supposed to help out their hips & joints. Unfortunately, the name escapes me right now.

Thanks for all the replies so far, everyone!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Would it be at all possible for you to get him involved in a puppy class? They're great for learning to train your puppy as well as for socialization.

After all, training isn't really about teaching your dog sit/stay/heel/down/etc. It's about learning to speak in a way that your dog can understand, and learning to listen to your dog. Training = developing a common language. Why wait until he's older to learn to understand him?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

The best trainers know training is NOT about the end behavior (sit? down?) 

Instead it's about us figuring out the best way to motivate and ENGAGE with our pup so that all learning is easy cause they WANT to learn and WANT to be with us trying to figure out new (and sometime really hard...) things we are wanting them to learn. Some great videos to help explain the toys/treats/praise/clicker are:


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## xArsAmatoria (Jan 9, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Would it be at all possible for you to get him involved in a puppy class? They're great for learning to train your puppy as well as for socialization.
> 
> After all, training isn't really about teaching your dog sit/stay/heel/down/etc. It's about learning to speak in a way that your dog can understand, and learning to listen to your dog. Training = developing a common language. Why wait until he's older to learn to understand him?


The training facilities in my area don't offer classes until the dog is six months old. I'm going to look into it a bit more and hopefully I can find something, but the only "puppy classes" I've been able to find so far are Petsmart and Petco.
I've always been discouraged from participating in their classes, but if any of you have had positive experiences, please share!

I'm not so much worried about socializing him because we have a dog park right around the corner from my house, so he'll be around other dogs and people plenty :] and we have a few events in my area monthly that I plan to take him to, in order to get him used to different situations.

I definitely plan on working with him a lot and learning about him and myself. It'll certainly be a growing process for both of us!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Dog parks are not ideal for puppies, and IMO dogs younger than 8-10 months should not visit them. 

If you have nothing except a petsmart training class, taking their puppy class for the socialization and distraction is better than nothing. Just don't pay much attention to the actual lessons and learn how to train your dog yourself online or in books.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I agree: Not a big fan of dog parks AT ALL! Always the chance your puppy will run into a bully and then either be afraid of dogs or dog-aggressive for years to come.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I don't like dog parks.

Did you check for dog classes at your local humane society? That's where I've gone in the past.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've trained with my "pup"~ clicker, treats, ball, tug.
I am going to (finally) introduce the dumbell retrieve to him.
Recently I've been rewarding with a marker YES and the ball for the reward. I'm going to go back to clicker/treat for this exercise. 
Once you've trained for different things, it is ok to change up the marker and rewards, especially if the dog is learning a new concept.
Around my town, I am really lucky to have several great people and places to train, and the more people I meet, the more contacts I make. So get yourself in a group of passionate dog lovers and you'll surround yourself with successful trainers....its a given!
BTW...never have taken my dogs to a dog park, and I still find people to train with that know what they are doing.


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## xArsAmatoria (Jan 9, 2011)

Our dog park actually has a section that is specifically for puppies, it's a really great location. I don't plan on letting him have free roam through the park until he's older; I mostly intend on walking him, on leash, around the area so he can get used to the sights & smells of dogs. My neighborhood has lots of dogs, so I think this is a good way to get him used to the idea of being around other dogs, while still feeling secure.

If you disagree, feel free to direct me, I'm open! I just wanted to make it clear that I will NOT be letting him run free with strange dogs that could possess the qualities you all seemed worried about him being exposed to. I definitely agree with you all on that.

I didn't think of checking the humane society, that sounds like a great option! I will definitely look into it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Well if you go to a dog park, you will usually have to unclip the leash. And if your pup doesn't have great recall, you will be at the mercy of the other dogs and your pups willingness to stay engaged with you. Until your puppy is proofed on his recall, then how can you control the situations he will be exposed to?
Please do some group structured classes for socializing instead of the dog park drama that won't benefit him.
Michael Ellis has some great clips on Leerburgs site for engagement. The ones MRL posted previously should be viewed over and over!!


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## xArsAmatoria (Jan 9, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Well if you go to a dog park, you will usually have to unclip the leash. And if your pup doesn't have great recall, you will be at the mercy of the other dogs and your pups willingness to stay engaged with you. Until your puppy is proofed on his recall, then how can you control the situations he will be exposed to?
> Please do some group structured classes for socializing instead of the dog park drama that won't benefit him.
> Michael Ellis has some great clips on Leerburgs site for engagement. The ones MRL posted previously should be viewed over and over!!


I believe ours does allow you to keep their leash on them, but I will look more into it as well as classes. So far, it just doesn't seem like there are many opportunities available for younger puppies in my area so I figured the dog park would be a good alternative. Maybe not. However, I do know plenty of people who taken their dogs and puppies to this specific park for years and have never had any sort of issues (I have been 5 or 6 times), so I will probably at least check it out a couple times, while erring caution. I would be willing to travel for classes, but this is of course something that I would be doing multiple times a week. So unfortunately, that will just not be feasible.

But as a previous poster suggested, I will definitely see what the humane society has to offer! Hopefully it will yield to at least something more than I have found, so far. Luckily, I've still got time before I take my pup home to figure it all out


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Is your goal just general good manners? Or do you plan on doing something with your new pup? There are different methods and ways on how to start pups. 

Clicker training (or marker training) is a nice way to start a pup in obedience that doesn't usually have any negative impact on any future training. It does rely heavily on engagement between your pup and yourself- so the videos posted are good places to start. Remember that as smart as GSD pups are...they are still just babies when they come home. I always prefer to start with one or two things I really want to teach my pup (usually that come is good, and some lure training), and other than that for the first month I pretty much focus on potty training and adjusting to living in a new environment. All those things puppy learns that you don't even teach...  

Just my 2 cents on dog parks. The only dog reactive dog that I own was the only one I took to a dog park. From the time he had his vaccines until about 7 months when he started to grow up and I realized it wasn't going to work anymore. I didn't really understand what I was watching...in retrospect I realize he was made to feel very uncomfortable by a number of dogs and puppies that were "just playing". The flip side to this...is that your puppy could be the bully in the puppy play group (Shepherd pups often are- it's the herding and biting instinct). Do you know how to recognize that? 

Every pup since that first pup was socialized only with my own adult dogs and adult dogs of friends at training classes that were under control of their owners. And most of the socialization was NOT involving off lead interaction between the dogs. It had more to do with greeting politely and then ignoring. Consequently my final 3 are well behaved and polite around other dogs that we meet out and about. Personally I subscribe more to the Leerburg theory of socialization. Socialization of a good tempered pup has more to do with exposure than interaction. It's only if you have a problem that more needs to be involved.

And believe me...We socialize like crazy...I just prefer venues that are a good deal more controlled. I like outdoor seating restaurants, Lowes, Home Depot, Outdoor malls, things like that. And if you're in Orlando there are TONS of places to go!! I lived in Orlando for awhile. There's a book that's out...I'll see if I can find it.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

This is it.
The Florida Dog Lover's Companion


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I saw it is all of the above-- treats, praise and clickers.  When I use a clicker I often use treats, or sometimes toys or other rewards. When I am done with the initial training I fade the clicker/treats and don't use them as often but still use praise.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

We're working with basic commands right now and sometimes I have Luke's full attention enough that a simple "good boy" and or a pet actually works. Sometimes when he's in play mode I need to keep his attention with treats. It's hard to find pea size treats so usually I just break what I buy into smaller pieces. 

We house trained him with saying GOOD BOY everytime and on the occasion that he would go inside (because we missed the signs) we would take him outside midstream. Now he sits at the backdoor and looks up at it then looks at us everytime he has to go outside. If we don't see him right away he whimpers then scratches at the door. Sometimes he would go outside and dip his hips and not do anything. Sometimes I would think it was just to hear me say GOOD BOY. 

We crate trained him with treats and it only took a couple of nights before he was going in when we tell him, not whining through the night and not having an accident in it. Of course we were setting an alarm and waking up to let him out every couple of hours the first few nights. Now he can hold for up to 4 to 4 and a half hours. 

I'm still flip flopping back and forth on whether or not I want to use a clicker. I'm thinking if that all it is is a marker then a simple YES or GOOD BOY and or a treat will do... at least with Luke anyways.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Treats AND praise AND clicker!


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

*Thieves use clicker?*

I'm wondering if any of you have heard of any robberies where the thief used a clicker. Someone commented on one of the numerous clicker training videos that I watched, that we should have someone else use the clicker with our dog and see what happens.

How often does this actually happen? Has anyone tried letting someone else use the clicker to see the results? Of course I could understand if it's a puppy or a friendly dog that isn't quite suited for protecting the home. That would, unfortunately, probably be the same one you could throw a piece of meat or bone to and keep busy for a while.

Would it make a difference if the thief is a friend or relative?

Is it safe to say that if your dog is trained to guard and protect that this shouldn't be an issue even with someone close?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Treats, praise and clicker are all good methods, but the greatest of the three is praise.....you will use that for lifetime and it develops the relationship of communication to a greater level for more complex thing....plus it works with all dogs.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

mrsartz said:


> I'm wondering if any of you have heard of any robberies where the thief used a clicker. Someone commented on one of the numerous clicker training videos that I watched, that we should have someone else use the clicker with our dog and see what happens.


I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish or prove. The clicker is a marker to show the dog exactly which behavior is correct and that they will be praised/treated for it. If you are worried about your dog taking commands from a stranger, if they get to the point of being able to click, then they didn't need the clicker anyway!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

When I read "treats praise clicker" I think "one of these things is not like the other". You can't use a clicker without treats or praise or some sort of reward. You may give treats or praise without a clicker but the rule of marker training is you never give your marker without following through with the reward. * A clicker is a marker.* Likewise people who use treats and praise often use a marker whether knowingly or not and it doesn't have to be a clicker (saying "yes" or "atta boy!" and then delivering the treats and/or praise). The clicker is not a command, so I don't see why it would matter who uses it. Sometimes if I have a friend working on something complicated and they want to focus on handling the dog, I will do the clicker. The handler is still the one handling the dog, giving commands, giving rewards. The clicker is just the marker.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

gsdraven said:


> I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish or prove. *The clicker is a marker to show the dog exactly which behavior is correct and that they will be praised/treated for it*. If you are worried about your dog taking commands from a stranger, if they get to the point of being able to click, then they didn't need the clicker anyway!





Liesje said:


> *The clicker is not a command*, so I don't see why it would matter who uses it.


What they said. When people ask questions like mrsarz's, I wonder if they really understand the purpose of a clicker and how it's used.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What they said. When people ask questions like mrsarz's, I wonder if they really understand the purpose of a clicker and how it's used.


Not fully. That's why I am watching videos, trying to learn what I can about them and still undecided but leaning toward using one. 

Apparently, it seems that anything can be used as a marker. For those of us that have good hand eye coordination the clicker is probably a good idea just to throw in the mix. I'm not sure how well I'd do but it's worth a try. I'm just so used to saying good boy that he'll probably end up with all 3.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

mrsartz said:


> Not fully. That's why I am watching videos, trying to learn what I can about them and still undecided but leaning toward using one.


Good for you! :thumbup: That comment wasn't directly solely at you, BTW.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Treats, praise and clicker are all good methods, but the greatest of the three is praise.....you will use that for lifetime and it develops the relationship of communication to a greater level for more complex thing....plus it works with all dogs.


That's pretty much how I feel to a certain extent. We had 2 pups in the family when I was growing up and I didn't use treats at all. Just time, praise and a pet. But then again it was basic commends nothing too complicated I am not a professional trainer nor do I plan to be.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Good for you! :thumbup: That comment wasn't directly solely at you, BTW.


I know. It's quite ok. I don't and wouldn't get insulted over stuff posted in forums even if a post were to be directed at me. :hug:


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

xArsAmatoria said:


> What do you think is the best reinforcement to train a GSD, and why? I didn't see another thread like this, but if there is one, feel free to direct me.
> 
> I'm about to get my first shepherd puppy and am definitely looking into training him well. He's only five weeks so I have time to prepare. I am planning on taking him to obedience classes, but not until he's older. In the meantime, I want to work on basic commands (sit, stay, off, lay down, leave it, not pulling on the leash, things like that). Aside from those commands, are there others that you taught your puppy? Is "heel" too complicated for a young pup? (I guess I have a few more questions than just "which training method"   )
> 
> ...


I've had excellent results with clicker training with dogs. The purpose of the clicker is to give a clear response to your dog that they did something you like. Eventually, you can replace the clicker with a word, like "yes!+reward (be it toy, treat, praise). Enrolling in a good, positive, rewards based training course would be a good start too. Good luck and good job researching/planning!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

mrsartz said:


> I'm not sure how well I'd do but it's worth a try. I'm just so used to saying *good boy* that he'll probably end up with all 3.


I love that you are thinking of using that cause it's the way most of us think.........until we know better :wild: :wub: :wild:

There are many reasons the clicker works so well, it's a sound our dogs do not hear anywhere else in the world, except training. It ONLY means one thing, 'you were just marvelous AND here's your reward'. There NEVER is any emotion behind the 'click' unlike the joy or unsureness you may otherwise use in a verbal while training. PLUS, and this is the part the 'good boy' falls short on, it is a fast sharp QUICK sound to mark PRECISELY when your dog did the brilliant behavior. 

With a 2 word marker like 'good boy' it adds confusion cause was your dog brilliant on the 'g' for good or when the dog finished something and you got the 'y' out on boy? 

Timing, and having GOOD timing, is one of the things a good trainer is always working on because the better the timing, the better the dog understands and faster it learns.

So, if you do use a verbal for a marker, it needs to be something with just one syllable that you can get out faster (alot of people use 'yes'). :wub:


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I love that you are thinking of using that cause it's the way most of us think.........until we know better :wild: :wub: :wild:
> 
> There are many reasons the clicker works so well, it's a sound our dogs do not hear anywhere else in the world, except training. It ONLY means one thing, 'you were just marvelous AND here's your reward'. There NEVER is any emotion behind the 'click' unlike the joy or unsureness you may otherwise use in a verbal while training. PLUS, and this is the part the 'good boy' falls short on, it is a fast sharp QUICK sound to mark PRECISELY when your dog did the brilliant behavior.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I think I'll check the nearby pet stores for a clicker tomorrow. I guess pet training, even simple training, has come a long way in 25-30 years since my puppy experiences. 

I guess maybe an old dog can learn a new trick.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Treats work well because food is a primary reinforcer. Personally I like to use anything that is reinforcing to my dog, from treats to praise to toys to an opportunity to go sniff or go play.
I also use clicker/marker training but when I do use a clicker it is generally combined with treats rather than other rewards because it is easiest to use treats due to the speed compared to play or toy rewards which slow things down.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

To expand a bit on what MaggieRoseLee said, using a clicker is like taking a photo of the _exact_ behavior you want. Saying "good boy" is like a 5 second video. Your dog knows he did something right, but what was it? The part where his butt touched the ground? The part where he licked you in the face? The part where he yawned and looked at the ceiling?

It seems obvious to us as humans-- duh! of course we meant the part where he sat!-- but your dog has no idea which of those three behaviors actually goes with "sit" or which one you're praising him for. So he has to do a lot more trial and error before he figures out, "Oh! "Sit" means put my butt on the ground! Not lick her face or yawn or scratch my ears! And it means the same thing in the house, in the yard, in the street. . . everywhere!" 

With a clicker, he learns faster exactly what you want him to do.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Emoore said:


> To expand a bit on what MaggieRoseLee said, using a clicker is like taking a photo of the _exact_ behavior you want. Saying "good boy" is like a 5 second video. Your dog knows he did something right, but what was it? The part where his butt touched the ground? The part where he licked you in the face? The part where he yawned and looked at the ceiling?
> 
> It seems obvious to us as humans-- duh! of course we meant the part where he sat!-- but your dog has no idea which of those three behaviors actually goes with "sit" or which one you're praising him for. So he has to do a lot more trial and error before he figures out, "Oh! "Sit" means put my butt on the ground! Not lick her face or yawn or scratch my ears! And it means the same thing in the house, in the yard, in the street. . . everywhere!"
> 
> With a clicker, he learns faster exactly what you want him to do.


Plus, the clicker sounds the same every time. A word can change in pitch and volume. "Yes!" (excited), "Yes" (sarcastic), "Yes?" (question). I've read research that suggests that the "click" sound bypasses the part of the brain that is used to interpret speech, and goes right to a deeper part of the brain that controls the startle response.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

I decided to go to Petsmart (am I allowed to "say" that?) and spent a whopping $5.49 plus tax on the clicker. They did have a cheaper one for $3.99 but I clicked them both and found the Pro-Training Clicker to be more comfortable to hold, easier to use and it had a more solid clicking sound. Another downfall is that it didn't click every time If I didn't push hard with my thumb to click it then it just wouldn't click or it would be a weak click. I didn't even look to see if the cheaper one had web support nor did I realize that the better one even had it. I just liked it better. So I figured I'd splurge and spend the extra money. 

It's not like I can't afford it but for some reason I thought they'd be higher in price and just not worth spending the money on especially when good boy and a pet are free. 

Well anyway, I conditioned him once with about 25 treats like the instructions state and I will do it again later tonight. Luke actually started to make progress when there was about 6-7 pieces left.  YES! GOOD BOY!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

mrsartz said:


> It's not like I can't afford it but for some reason I thought they'd be higher in price and just not worth spending the money on especially when good boy and a pet are free.


Oh no they are cheap! I get mine for 50 cents, 99 if I'm splurging!


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