# Debarking Is It EVER Ok?



## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I wanted some opinions on whether or not debarking a dog is EVER ok in 'extreme' circumstances? I personally don't think there is any reason to debark a dog,but I have heard of some behaviorists and vets who actually recommend debarking by a licensed vet as a last alternative if the dog 'cannot' be trained to stop nuisance barking.There's a lady about 2 hours from me who breeds Dobermans,and is very well known for her dogs. She has come under a lot of scrunity though because she told people that she has all of her dogs debarked by her vet and even offers the service to her puppy buyers. She takes very well care of her dogs and doesn't have litters too often,but this has left a bad impression of her with many people who were once fond of her.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

I think only in a case where a court order does not allow enough time for proper training. If a judge says a person only has a week or so to rectify the barking before the dog is disposed of or destroyed I would not begrudge the owner for making that choice.

It's not something that should be done flippantly but it's better than the dog loosing its home or life.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why would someone debark a Doberman? They are a guard breed! The ones I know have amazing barks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I know a breeder of Keeshonden that debarks, to keep peace in her neighborhood. 
I think in extreme circumstances...perhaps an apartment or condo dweller that is gone and the dog carries on while alone.

I don't see it as worse than ear cropping or tail docking which are usually done for purely aesthetic reasons, while a debark procedure is usually the last effort before giving up a pooch.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

That was my thinking,but her reasoning is because her dogs look is intimidating enough and they don't need to bark to be a deterrant. Anyway I don't understand her reasoning either,but...




Liesje said:


> Why would someone debark a Doberman? They are a guard breed! The ones I know have amazing barks.


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## SewSleepy (Sep 4, 2012)

I think debating for the **** of it is awful. I suppose I could understand in the example above where it had gotten to the point of a court order to fix a barking problem, but other than that...I just can't imagine doing that. Do bark collars just not work on some dogs?


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Well I would think the owners would be on top of things enough to avoid getting to the point of their dog(s) being nuisance barkers,but this isn't a perfect world.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

SewSleepy said:


> I think debating for the **** of it is awful. I suppose I could understand in the example above where it had gotten to the point of a court order to fix a barking problem, but other than that...I just can't imagine doing that. Do bark collars just not work on some dogs?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


The smart ones learn how to bark once, pause, bark again, pause, and so on, defeating the electronic bark collars that go off for repeated barking. Or do something similar, but only pause when the collar gives off a warning tone. I bought a citronella bark collar for my last dog (would never do so again based on the sensory assault) and the clever little so-and-so just turned his head to the side and barked anyway.

That said, I was friends with the daughter of a dalmation breeder when I was a kid. All of her dogs were debarked and I didn't find them any quieter, really, than non-debarked dogs. They just sounded like they had terribly sore throats.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I honestly think the 'bark' of a 'debarked' dog sounds worse than one who hasn't been debarked..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm not really for or against it. I've seen debarked dogs and they don't really seem to notice that they are different. It doesn't stop them from barking so I don't think it's absolutely inhumane or anything like that. I guess I just personally don't understand it because barking is really important to me. I've also made a point to avoid dogs that are known to be yappy or night barkers.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I honestly think the 'bark' of a 'debarked' dog sounds worse than one who hasn't been debarked..


I agree, they sound terrible and I find it much more annoying than a regular bark.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We just had a sheltie who'd been debarked, she sounded hoarse...


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I feel if someone wants to do it then more power to them. Just not something I'd do simply because I find the dogs more annoying after it's done. I don't see it as any different than cropping and docking which I don't have anything against either. On the other hand, just as I don't agree with wrapping rubber bands around a dogs tail or clipping ears with scissors at home, I don't agree with shoving blunt pipes down the dogs throat to "debark them". So it all comes down to it being done professionally for me. Otherwise I feel it's the owners choice and I'm not going to put them down for it but I might tell them how their dog sounds like something is dying in it's throat. Lol!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I know a number of ankle biter breeders do this because their dogs are too mindless to be taught to be quiet when there are many of them together. I don't have a problem with this. I wouldn't do it for your average dog instead of some good training and management.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I guess my problem with it is the fact that I have seen a lot of people do this because they are too lazy to deal with the problem of their dog barking. In an extreme court case situation where the dog needs a quick fix or else,that is a little different to me.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

When you breed,show and travel with 10 plus Shelties in your vehicle and go to shows with lots of Shelties, then debarking is the only way to keep your sanity. Shelties will bark at the grass blowing across the yard. Debarking , if done by a vet who has done alot of them is easy on the dog, the bark is very soft and quiet and the little buggers still yap, but not noisy and don't have to be yelled at to be quiet, squirted with water bottles or anything else.
Lots of show dog folks will debark their big and little dogs, again when you are in a small area with 2000 dogs, its nice to be parked next to someone with debarked quiet dogs, not yapping all day long because dogs are moving constantly.
Two ways to debark: light anesthetic and the vet goes down the throat, makes a small "divit" in each vocal cord, dog wakes up and has no clue what is going on. You need to keep them quiet and non barking for about 10 days, the more noise they make, the more scar tissue forms. Scar tissue is what gives the hoarse sound, a debark that was not kept quiet and the scar tissue formed
The other more invasive way is to cut through the throat from the front and remove the vocal cords. No noise is ever made at all again. Sutures on the outside and a pressure bandage kept on for 3 days to prevent swelling.
I have lived where I would have loved to have my neighbors labs debarked, they barked all day and all night. Owner did not try to shut them up at all. 
There are many reasons to debark, although some states are outlawing debarks because the criminals are doing them to surprise cops with no noise when they come to their drug houses. Not a reason to debark for sure.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wyominggrandma said:


> Lots of show dog folks will debark their big and little dogs, again when you are in a small area with 2000 dogs, its nice to be parked next to someone with debarked quiet dogs, not yapping all day long because dogs are moving constantly.


I wish flyball people would do this!


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

If it's debark the dog or give it away/send it to the pound/etc then I say debark. I wouldn't do it myself and I don't like to see if being done without being used as a last resort.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I wish flyball people would do this!


Isn't that the truth! It's deafening indoors at a flyball tournament!


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

I'll be in the minority, but I'm 1000% against debarking.

If you're traveling with lots of yappy dogs & it bugs you, find a different pasttime.

When I worked for vets, I *NEVER* saw a "last-minute" court issue. It *ALWAYS* was a case of a 90-day warning, then 60, then 30... Any "last minute quick fix" was due to the owner not doing a darn thing until it was too late.

People don't like tail or ear cropping to make the dog look like the breed is 'supposed' to. Don't like declawing a cat. But have no problem with debarking. That kind of thinking makes no sense to me.

Altho - it this political year - I wouldn't mind seeing a few humans' voiceboxes removed.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm also in the minority that says 'no way'. If barking dogs bother you, then get a cat! If you've got a court order, then find the dog a new home or move. I've been more irritated with screaming kids in my neighborhood... why not remove their ability to scream?? 
I do not have an issue with ears or tails IF done by a vet properly. However...dogs barking is 100% what they do. It just blows my mind. Can't stand traveling with barking dogs? Don't do it! I drive with my parrots to my camper which is two hours away. At times, I threaten to put them on the grill because they're too loud in the truck. However, I'd never do it. It's part of who they are, too.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Jag said:


> I do not have an issue with ears or tails IF done by a vet properly. However...dogs barking is 100% what they do. It just blows my mind. Can't stand traveling with barking dogs? Don't do it! I drive with my parrots to my camper which is two hours away. At times, *I threaten to put them on the grill because they're too loud in the truck.* However, I'd never do it. It's part of who they are, too.


Agree 1000%. However, I LMAO reading about the parrots...:laugh:

We had a client come in once with her big cat. Wanted it "de-meowed" because he was too talkative. Happily, my vet-boss refused. When she became arrogant about it, he suggested she get a stuffed toy...


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

My neighbors at the campground mentioned they heard me yelling into the camper at The Rowdy Boys that "the coals are still hot" and "you taste like chicken" :blush:


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I have shown dogs for many many years, along with many many other professional handlers. None of my dogs or my handler friends dogs were upset or hurt, they happily barked away and nobody had to be bothered by the noise. Being set up by folks who totally ignore barking dogs for 10-12 hours a day and they bark and bark and bark to me is rude. Those folks, like the ones against debarking on the forum don't mind barking dogs, however maybe your neighbors do. If you travel to dog shows, if that is your BUSINESS, not just a hobby, you try to make it easier on yourself and others around you.
The dogs don't care, they do not know they are quiet and not loud anymore, instead they might wonder why nobody is yelling" shut up dog" all the time. 
Guess its like going to a restaurant and being seated next to a table of a family with kids who are running around, screaming, pushing and shoving each other and the parents are happily talking away and ignoring their brats. . I used to try to ignore them and eat, now I tell them to go sit down and shut up. My kids never did that at restuarants. So, instead of ignoring my dogs at dog shows, instead of squirting them with water or yelling to shut up every 5 seconds because they are being dogs and barking at the other hundreds of dogs walking by and barking, they can happily "soft bark" and nobody cares.
And I agree, at flyball , agility, etc there is nothing worse than a bunch of screaming barking dogs who want to go do their thing. I also hate walking to ringside and have dogs in crates barking barking barking while you are trying to keep your dog calm and settled before ring time. 
Will I give up showing because some folks think its cruel and I should do something else if I don't like barking dogs? Not a chance. The dogs don't care, they still are able to continue being "natural" doing dog barking, but its quiet and not annoying.
Guess its personal preference.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

My daughter used to threaten my parrots with " you are going to become tiny spicy wings and legs if you keep yelling".. Finally my African Timneh would tell Boo, the Amazon that he was going to be "tiny spicy bird" ...when he hollared.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I actually don't care much about debarking but don't really like cropping or docking, but luckily I don't own any breeds usually subjected to any of these procedures (I like naturally prick ears, deep barks, and long tails!). The thing with debarking is that the dogs still bark. I've yet to see one that appears to care that he's debarked or realize that his bark is different than other dogs'. My main concern is for the dogs and....they just don't seem to care.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Nope, they don't care. To them, they can still open their mouths and yap, just no sound or a soften sound(again it needs to be done by experienced debark vet to have the correct soft sound). I would rather debark a dog than put bark collars that shock them or collars that spray something in their face/mouth. With a bark collar or spray collar, they are being taught if they open their mouths, something bad will happen. 
With a debark, they can still happily bark and make noise, but nothing bad happens and nobody is yelling at them to shut up.
Again, just my opinion backed up by lots of experience.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I used to work at a privately run rescue. There was 50 or so dogs, 14 of them being shelties and two of those shelties were de barked. No, those two did not care that they couldn't produce a full bark, but they had never been taught to be quiet so they 'barked' non stop all the time. The other 12 shelties did bark, a lot (they are shelties), however they were taught to stop barking when told to stop, and not to bark outside. A loud "ENOUGH" was all that was needed to stop the barking when it started. The two that were debarked would do their bark thing all day outside. Believe it or not we received noise complaints on those two dogs alone. Neighboors did not mind the occasional barking of the normal bark dogs as they would hear us stop them shortly after they started. But they could not stand the weird constant noise from the debarked dogs. So IMO if you have a severe barking case, even debarking will not help.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Interesting article here with a clear description of how "debarking" is done.
Answers About Canine Devocalization - NYTimes.com


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> In this technique, the dog’s mouth is opened and a very small piece of tissue is taken from one or both vocal folds, using a slender biopsy instrument. When correctly done, there is little to no bleeding or discomfort.


This is interesting. 
I'll tell you this much, too, we've not even considered doing it here, but one of my dogs is a Sheltie mix, she's 38lb. and her bark is...annoying and obnoxious to say the least. She's loud and she barks just to bark. 
Luckily she's not a dog that needs a ton of exercise because she does it when she's outside. She'll just toss her head back and bark and carry on for all she's worth.
Her voice travels throughout the property. If there was ever a candidate for "bark softening", it'd be her :crazy:
But it's so easily controlled, by bringing her inside, it's not anything I'd consider, as I said I never have considered it for her - primarily because I know why she does it and how to stop it. 

If she did it to that extent inside as well, though, that'd be another matter entirely.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

IMO dogs who bark/scream at agility or any other dog sport event, are no different from people who get excited at a sport of their choice. I just think that if someone is that sensitive to 'excited dog noise',then don't go.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Thats all fine and dandy to say "don't go" but when you are in that area for HOURS and HOURS a little excited dog noise is not just a small thing.
Yes, done correctly, it is a very minor surgery and takes about 5 minutes from start to finish.
. I don't feel like being told that because I debark my dogs, I am basically cruel or should not "do" what I like to do and what I do for a business: showing dogs. I am also able to have many many dogs at my home, in my yard and house because they are debarked and don't bother the neighbors. My neighbors are amazed how many shelties I used to have at one time, nobody could hear them.
Not gonna fight about a personal choice that I made, but I will certainly not tell people who don't like my choices that they should leave their sport, or stay home or whatever and I should not be told that by others who don't like my choices.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

No never ok.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

We have a 125-gallon aquarium. Our 'Pet TV', it keeps the cats busy. And Ziva is especially interested when the Oscars play with ping-pong balls. They make a "blurple" sound. There are 4 of them in there & they can be quite noisey - especially at night.

Maybe I should have them de-blurpled? 

Just trying to lighten the discussion...No de-barks, de-meows, or de-blurples here...


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

This is something I have always gone back and forth one, yes..no..cruel..not cruel....

One of the reasons is I have considered getting my mix done. I know a lot of people say its "training" but to be honest, in some cases, I honestly believe it is the dog.

Buddy is a Jack/Rat/Schnauzer and possibly border collie mix. I believe in all my heart that he really has something loose in his head, for the first 6 months or so of his life, he was left in a small crate and fed DRY CAT FOOD. He was also taken away from momma at 6wks old. He was the last one left and one of my neighbors couldn't stand it, so she offered 50 bucks and took him. She had him for about six month before she asked me if I would take him.

It been 7yrs since I've had him, and we have made great strides is many areas. Except for the barking..

He barks if you knock on the bathroom door
He knocks if I tell one of my kids to go get someone for me
He barks at thunder
He barks at the garbage truck
He barks at the wind
He barks when I get the pots and pans down for dinner
He barks if oil pops on the stove
He barks at the mop when its just laying there
He barked at one of his own toys on the porch one night (light off)
He barks if she smells a cat
He barks at random noises on the tv
He barks at US
He barks when we are gone

He barks at EVERYTHING, and I don't mean just things here and there, he barks at EVERYTHING. The only time he doesn't bark is when everyone is asleep in bed and even then he'll bark sometimes.

I live in a duplex, my neighbor has been very kind, but how long can I ask that of her? This isn't a case of "don't get a dog that barks". When my neighbor asked me to take him, she was ready to send him to the pound. This dog has lots of issues, some of which are simply just managing now and not a matter of training. I'd like to say he's just a typical dog with training issues, but he's not. Being taken away from mom early, fed cat food and left in a crate for six months of his life, this dog is messed up and not many people are going to want to deal with his issues. I hate to say it, sometimes *I* don't want to, but then I see his good sides, and he owns his name "Snuggle Buddy", when anyone is sad, he's there. 

But this barking....

So, I constantly go back and forth with what I should do. Re homing him is not an option, I made a commitment and despite his issues with almost everything, he's still a very loved family member.

But omg this barking.......


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

how about a bark collar? 


While I would never de bark mine, I don't have a problem with others doing it, to each his own

I have an aussie who barks himself into a frenzy sometimes, got a bark collar, and he doesn't make a peep..He actually likes it when I put it on him, wiggling his butt all over the place, it keeps him quiet and he doesn't go into the 'ozone" driving himself and all of us crazy..

When I got my first aussie to do agility, I swore I was not going to be one of those people running a dog who barked thru an entire course, nipped their handler etc..Thank goodness I got a quiet one in Jynx, sure she can be a big mouth, but never when running a course. 

The bark collar works great for the other aussie. And believe me I pride myself on being a pretty good trainer, this dog has ALWAYS proved me wrong 

Now that being said, my sister has papillons, one of them NEVER shuts up, she competes in agility and is pretty high up there , if he is around me and starts yapping, a simple "knock it off now" from me, and he shuts up,,I just can't figure out why my sister would want to listen to that all the time but oh well.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have successfully used bark collars, but when you have more than 3-4 dogs, it's a hassle to keep them all on and batteries up, etc.

That said, we used a bark collar on Yaeger (since passed away) every time we'd travel, or it sounded like we were beating him with chains, he'd scream so much when we'd stop for potty breaks.
He responded nicely to the collar, but I've seen other dogs freak out completely and go into a melted puddle. Those were poor candidates for the bark collar so we never put it on them.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I think it is interesting that debarking is considered inhumane "because dogs are supposed to bark but bark collars are suggested as an alternative. Debarking doesn't stop dogs from barking, it just alters the way the bark sounds. Bark collars do stop the dog from barking. While the collar is on if the dog barks, they get a shock (or a spray) and most very quickly learn to never bark when the collar is on. I use bark collars on my dogs, so I'm certainly not saying that I don't think they are an option. I just don't understand the line of reasoning. And FWIW bark collars are not effective on all dogs and on some dogs they lose their effectiveness.And if the bark collar is left on too long, the dog can develop nasty rub sores from the prong's close contact with the skin (people mistaken this for "burns" from the collar). If you have a dog with a thick coat, not necessarily long but a thick undercoat you will have to keep a spot shaved so the prongs have consistent contact with the skin or the collar will not be effective. 

IME there seems to be a knee jerk reaction whenever debarking is brought up. People have no experience with it but it just sounds wrong to them, so there must be a reason it is wrong. I used to feel that way too. But being around debarked dogs and dogs who had just been debarked, I can't say I have found any real issues with it. There is always risk of surgery and it does have to be done properly and you have to do proper aftercare. But really, dogs recover from it faster than a spay and it is far less invasive. As others have said, the dogs really don't seem to be effected by it. I did after care on a debarked dog and she was able to eat normally right after the surgery and was her normal happy self when I got her back. She really had no sign at all that she had just had a surgery less than 24 hours before. She was previously trained to a bark collar and I used that on her during the times she might be inclined to bark during the recovery period to prevent scar tissue.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

I'm shocked at some of the replies. 

I know I am in a different country to you guys (UK) but I have never heard of a dog being de barked much less seen one, and no, I don't think it's ok. 

If you dont like dogs barking, go and get a cat instead?!


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

wolfspirit,

I could not have said it better than you.

However, as a Vet Tech, we even had clients that wanted their cats de-meowed.

No, it is never OK, in my mind.

And to have many dogs debarked? Sick, IMO. If you want "silent" pets, buy fish. Or stuffed toys.

It is truly amazing to me, what we accept as "OK" or "normal" nowadays.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm not that experienced with debarking dogs, but over the years I've met a few Shelties and Collies that have been debarked ... IMHO the loud, raspy noise they make after debarking is far more irritating than hearing them bark.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

As the neighbor of two debarked beagles I say..."Thank YOU!!!" I am not a fan of debarking and think in most cases it should not be done but I have never seen two dogs that barked like that and the owner did try everything before resorting to this. I felt sorry for her because she did do it as a last resort.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just curious...where do you draw the line on mutilation? Cropping ears isn't ok, denailing isn't ok, cropping tails isn't ok so if you don't like one, how do you justify cropping vocal cords? I"m sincerely interested in the answer as I'm not really seeing a grey area on these things.

And yes, I've found the non bark from a debarked dog far more irritating than a bark.


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

Was just reading some of the posts about using bark collars...she tried those too Both the shock and a citritella spray. THe spray would just make the dog gag and 
choke while continueing to bark. THe shock would make them yelp then bark more. They literaly never stopped barking. Hours would go by and their voices sounded raw. THey are in the house alot too..not just backyard dogs. They never stopped barking in the house either.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Funny thing about those collars...they are training tools. So if a person just puts them on and lets them go, what have they learned? Nothing. Because there is no positive reinforcement for when they stop barking.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Just curious...where do you draw the line on mutilation? Cropping ears isn't ok, denailing isn't ok, cropping tails isn't ok so if you don't like one, how do you justify cropping vocal cords? I"m sincerely interested in the answer as I'm not really seeing a grey area on these things.
> 
> And yes, I've found the non bark from a debarked dog far more irritating than a bark.



For me the only thing I'm really against would be the de clawing of cats as their nails serve an actual active role in the cats life. The shape of ears and the length of the tail really don't play any role other than looks. I'm still on the fence with debarking, mainly because I never really knew how it was done before this thread. I'm still giving it thought though.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jax08 said:


> Funny thing about those collars...they are training tools. So if a person just puts them on and lets them go, what have they learned? Nothing. Because there is no positive reinforcement for when they stop barking.


This is how most people use them though. In a lot of cases you would probably have to spend YEARS trying to train a dog not to bark during times when, in the dog's eyes, it probably makes sense to bark, especially since often when this is most annoying the owner is not nearby to correct a dog. I used a bark collar on Nikon a few times at SchH and it works when the collar is on. The collar *is* the cue. When it is on you don't bark, when it's off you can bark your fool head off. I don't really see a problem with this, but in his case he was only barking annoyingly in one specific situation. If I had dogs that just barked around the house all day and night....I don't know what I'd do!

I personally do not do elective surgeries/alterations of my dogs (crop, dock, debark, dewclaws, de-claw cats, etc) but I've never had any problems with my dogs existing in their natural state. I probably wouldn't be all that sad if my neighbor got her dog debarked though. I don't really mind it but sometimes I feel like the other neighbors assume *my* dogs are the ones barking or instigating when it's really just her dog barking at *everything*. Like if I go outside to put some trash out, he will bark incessantly at me from inside her house and everyone can hear. If my dogs are out and her dogs come out, they bark nonstop and eventually get so worked up it sounds like her dogs are attacking each other.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

GSDolch said:


> For me the only thing I'm really against would be the de clawing of cats as their nails serve an actual active role in the cats life. The shape of ears and the length of the tail really don't play any role other than looks. I'm still on the fence with debarking, mainly because I never really knew how it was done before this thread. I'm still giving it thought though.


Longer, heavier ears can be detrimental - the can cause more ear infections due to lack of air flow, not that this is why dogs' ears are docked. Dogs that actually hunt or fight sometimes have their ears cropped to prevent their prey/opponent from ripping them up. I don't like the practice of docking ears, myself, simply because it is painful for the dog, and rarely done for any purpose other than looks.

I wonder - has anyone done a study on how tail length affects balance and agility, especially for turning/twisting? It seems like tail length would have an effect on that, though maybe not much of one.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

While it might be painful, its not an ongoing issue with pain, after everything is healed up, the dog is fine and really could care less about it. It's not something that effects its life.

Having a cat de clawed can, if it needs to defend itself, or climb a tree to get out of harms way, the chances of it being able to without claws is unlikely. Not to mention some cats end up having problems going to their litter box because it hurts their paws to dig.

Crop/dock and I suppose debarking have no long lasting effects (IMO) on the animal where as de clawing does.

As to the tail, I haven't ever seen any differences. A dogs tail isn't like a cats tail so I don't think it is the same thing.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I just think that if a dog's barking is bad enough that someone would consider debarking, it is probably a neurotic barker and debarking it isn't going to help the dog mentally, it's just going make it easier on your ears. So it hasn't really done anything besides adjust the volume and I don't think that's what the real problem is.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

GSDolch said:


> Having a cat de clawed *can*, if it needs to defend itself, or climb a tree to get out of harms way, the chances of it being able to without claws is unlikely. Not to mention *some* cats end up having problems going to their litter box because it hurts their paws to dig.
> 
> Crop/dock and I suppose debarking have no long lasting effects (IMO) on the animal where as de clawing does.
> 
> As to the tail, I haven't ever seen any differences. A dogs tail isn't like a cats tail so I don't think it is the same thing.


De-clawed cats should be indoor cats, so the escape-by-climbing-a-tree should not be an issue. If the vet does the procedure correctly, it should not be hurtful. I had a cat that, after it awoke from it's surgery, start boxing the other cats while his feet were still bandaged. It's when the vet is an arse, when he clips into the pads, that the surgery is painful. Many people would not adopt a cat if it weren't de-clawed, so many more cats would be PTS. However, there are many states - including this messed-up state - that wish to outlaw de-claws. And ear crops. And tail docks. Dew claw removals. Dobie owners are fighting the naysayers - a dobie without crops would look like a very tall doxie - yes?!
(And this, coming from the state who wants to experiment on a Phillipino dog with no upper jaw or snout - go figure.)

My next door neighbor's barking slipper has been doing that - BARKING - for years. Now, he's almost 16 & he's deaf. Lucky him - he still barks, but he can't hear himself any more. Would I want her to have him de-barked? No. I do not put that in the same category as an ear crop or tail dock for a breed standard.

I still say, if you can't tolerate a dog barking all the time, get another species of pet. Or at least 1 that is less likely to bark. Hounds, terriers, poodles, Aussies - all are known talkers.

Or get a parrot - that way, they'll mimic the owner...how funny would THAT be?!


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## german shepherd 1600 (Sep 28, 2012)

wyominggrandma said:


> Nope, they don't care. To them, they can still open their mouths and yap, just no sound or a soften sound(again it needs to be done by experienced debark vet to have the correct soft sound). I would rather debark a dog than put bark collars that shock them or collars that spray something in their face/mouth. With a bark collar or spray collar, they are being taught if they open their mouths, something bad will happen.
> With a debark, they can still happily bark and make noise, but nothing bad happens and nobody is yelling at them to shut up.
> Again, just my opinion backed up by lots of experience.


agree 100%


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

While I think most of the time, it is simply because its easier, I believe there are times when it simply becomes a matter of management. 

With my terrier mix, its crossed over into management. He has come so far since I got him, except with the barking. I truly believe that when it comes to mental issues, his have much to do with wires being crossed up top. 

I've tried the bark collar and I will not go that route again. I put it on him, he barked, and then proceeded to throw himself around to the point of falling down some stairs and hurting himself, all the while he never stopped barking. He does not do well with corrections at all, he buckles down and you'd think he was being beat by just giving him a strong NO.

He's come a long way with PT, but IMO he has way to many mental issues and for some things, its a matter of managing it.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> *De-clawed cats should be indoor cats, so the escape-by-climbing-a-tree should not be an issue.* If the vet does the procedure correctly, it should not be hurtful. I had a cat that, after it awoke from it's surgery, start boxing the other cats while his feet were still bandaged. It's when the vet is an arse, when he clips into the pads, that the surgery is painful. Many people would not adopt a cat if it weren't de-clawed, so many more cats would be PTS. However, there are many states - including this messed-up state - that wish to outlaw de-claws. And ear crops. And tail docks. Dew claw removals. Dobie owners are fighting the naysayers - a dobie without crops would look like a very tall doxie - yes?!
> (And this, coming from the state who wants to experiment on a Phillipino dog with no upper jaw or snout - go figure.)
> 
> My next door neighbor's barking slipper has been doing that - BARKING - for years. Now, he's almost 16 & he's deaf. Lucky him - he still barks, but he can't hear himself any more. Would I want her to have him de-barked? No. I do not put that in the same category as an ear crop or tail dock for a breed standard.
> ...



What should be and what is though........


I guess I *could* have just let my neighbors take Buddy to the pound, where I know he would have been put down at a year old because at that time he wouldn't let anyone except me and the owners near him without barking like he was going to eat them up. He's all terrier bluff, but that doesn't matter, if he wont let anyone near him and barks aggressively at them he wasn't going to get adopted.

And we (well, me) aren't talking about talkers, I don't mind talkers.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Just curious...where do you draw the line on mutilation? Cropping ears isn't ok, denailing isn't ok, cropping tails isn't ok so if you don't like one, how do you justify cropping vocal cords? I"m sincerely interested in the answer as I'm not really seeing a grey area on these things.


 What about spaying and neutering? In some countries those procedures are considered "mutilation" as well, when done without medical need. We accept it because we're told it's the right thing to do, even though there are risks and benefits to it. And the truth is, they are almost always elective surgeries. 




Liesje said:


> This is how most people use them though. In a lot of cases you would probably have to spend YEARS trying to train a dog not to bark during times when, in the dog's eyes, it probably makes sense to bark, especially since often when this is most annoying the owner is not nearby to correct a dog. I used a bark collar on Nikon a few times at SchH and it works when the collar is on. The collar *is* the cue.


 This is how I use them to, basically as a management tool. When the collar is on, be quiet and when the collar is off feel free to bark when you are inclined to.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

GSDolch - I was trying to be "nice" when I said "talkers". Barking dogs get on everyone's nerves (well, almost everyone - except my neighbor...). You "could" have let your neighbor take Buddy to the pound? You have that much control over what a neighbor does with a screaming meemie? PaLEEZE teach me! I've learned to deal with Scooter cause he's old & deaf now. But I have 2 others down the street....

Oh yeah, & those 8- & 10-yr-olds (humans) who ONLY scream out front after dark.... (whatever happened to parents making their kids stay in the house or backyard after dark?):crazy:


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> GSDolch - I was trying to be "nice" when I said "talkers". Barking dogs get on everyone's nerves (well, almost everyone - except my neighbor...). You "could" have let your neighbor take Buddy to the pound? You have that much control over what a neighbor does with a screaming meemie? PaLEEZE teach me! I've learned to deal with Scooter cause he's old & deaf now. But I have 2 others down the street....
> 
> Oh yeah, & those 8- & 10-yr-olds (humans) who ONLY scream out front after dark.... (whatever happened to parents making their kids stay in the house or backyard after dark?):crazy:



I only mentioned "talkers" as I see it as way different from barking. Yes, I "could" have let my neighbors take him to the pound. The wife came to me and asked him if I would take him, if not he was getting dropped off at the pound by her husband on his way to work that afternoon because he didn't like him. He was to scruffy and annoying. I never seen him be abusive to Buddy, but I have my theories.

SO, I "could" have said "No" and just let him go be put down, because there is no way this dog would have been adopted out in the three days that they keep owner surrenders before putting them to sleep.

And what in the world does kids have to do with dogs?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm with Lies regarding how I use a bark collar for Jag.

It's not on him 24/7, only times when I am here, and he's driving me crazy and going into the "zone" if something is going on. 

As I said before, the darn dog wiggles his butt big time when he sees me with the 'collar', and he knows the difference, half the time now, the batteries are dead which he hasn't figured out yet.

I use it when there are times I just don't want to hear it, he's 11 years old, and has always been the way he is..heck it took me 2 years to get him to "down"  Have never had a dog this stubborn in my life, he is what he is

Now if he went beserko with the collar I'd never use it but he's ok with it so if he's ok I"m ok


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

"And what in the world does kids have to do with dogs? "

Oh Good Lord - doesn't ANYone have a sense of humor any more?:crazy:

I'm just saying - TONGUE IN CHEEK - that there are OTHER noise-makers as well!!! We can't silence them all.

If you want to de-bark your dog, just do it. No sense making a federal case out of it.

Geez Louise....


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## SiegersMom (Apr 19, 2011)

I think my dogs barking bothers me more than anyone else only because I worry about the neighbors getting mad. Thankfully he only barks when something is there and is not incessant about it. Unless he has an opossum cornered like the other morning I would never debark my dog but I can't control or train others. The beagles next door were so loud that I could not sit in my back yard and visit with my mom becasue we could not hear over the dogs...they were that loud. I have a very large back yard and these dogs are on the far side behind the apple trees and a solid fence. They were not barking at us. They did not even know we were outside. THey just never stopped. So NO I would never debark mine but I was all for them debarking theirs. Now they do sound a little funny when I stand right next to the fence but it is peacefull again in my garden. I will also never own a beagle after being around those two.


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