# Westminster 2016



## dogfaeries

Anyone watching the groups tonight? 

Really nice line up of Hounds. I'm a big fan of sighthounds, and was glad to see the Borzoi get a Group 1. Number one dog in Japan last year. Beautiful dog!


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## dogfaeries

Wooooo hooooo! Rumor wins the Group! On to Best in Show tomorrow night!


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## gsdheeler

Rumor looked wonderful,I've been to the Garden, packed with people, and hot. It has to be stressful for dog and handler being benched all day but she really made it look effortless. I might need a beer or two watching BIS tomorrw.


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## ksotto333

Darn, I forgot. I need to set an alarm so I remember tomorrow night.


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## gsdheeler

USA network is replaying the Monday night groups Tues AM starting at 8....


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## gsdheeler

DogFaeries do you know when they started having class dogs entered, just noticed that last year. I always thought the Westminster show was for dogs who had their CHs....


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## Gretchen

I just finished watching - beautiful GSD, yeah!


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## dogfaeries

I always thought so too, but I think now you have to have a major pointed dog to enter. Both of Jackie's bred-by dogs are major pointed.


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## gsdheeler

OK thanks, I wonder why they did that.
I have to admit it was nice to see Obed added this year, about time.


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## dogfaeries

And the GSD bashing begins on Westminster's FB. Good grief, can people just let someone enjoy their win for 5 minutes before starting with the crippled dog crap?? I'm so disgusted.


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## Moriah

I hope Rumor goes all the way


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## dogfaeries

Me too! She's lovely! When I saw her in November, I told my friend "distract Kent, I'm throwing her in the minivan", lol.


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## Blondi's Revenge

What's Rumor's predigree?


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## dogfaeries

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...l?id=2320993-lockenhaus-rumor-has-it-v-kenlyn


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## Jax08

dogfaeries said:


> And the GSD bashing begins on Westminster's FB. Good grief, can people just let someone enjoy their win for 5 minutes before starting with the crippled dog crap?? I'm so disgusted.



I thought Rumor was very moderate and a step in the right direction. She's a beauty. And I believe she works in some venue? Is it herding?


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## onyx'girl

dogfaeries said:


> Lockenhaus' Rumor Has It V Kenlyn


Kismets sight for sore eyes is in the 3rd generation, twice. Grandparents were both sired by him. Why isn't that showing up in the line breeding on the database?


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I missed it last night.Dang I gotta watch it. Congratulations to Rumor.


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## MayzieGSD

Rumor is very pretty but I noticed she has a white patch on her chest. Isn't that considered a fault? Just curious.


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## gsdheeler

Nope, that's fine.


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## WIBackpacker

Jax08 said:


> I thought Rumor was very moderate and a step in the right direction. She's a beauty. *And I believe she works in some venue? Is it herding*?


I thought I'd read that in a few places. If anyone has a link to footage they'd care to share, I'd love to watch it. 

And a huge Congratulations to Jackie! - whose dogs I have seen herding footage of.


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## wolfstraum

the commentators are not given good info - the Belgian Sheepdog is NOT known as Europes best police dog! GSDs and maybe Mailnois!!! the Groendahl is probably the 3rd most popular of the 4 types of this breed 

The Boucheron looks more like a working GSD than the GSD  


Lee


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## GSDPERRO

When I saw the Boucheron come out I thought for just a second that it was a working line GSD! 

The GSD is a nice example of the ASL I think. I saw her once at a show and she seemed to be pretty solid. I do think she is a step in the right direction.


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## holland

The beauceron was gorgeous-I thought a white spot was a fault??


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## lhczth

onyx'girl said:


> Kismets sight for sore eyes is in the 3rd generation, twice. Grandparents were both sired by him. Why isn't that showing up in the line breeding on the database?


He shows up twice in her mother. Linebreeding is only recognized when both the sire and dam carry the same dog. Her mother is linebred 2-2 on Dallas, but Rumor is not.


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## Gretchen

wolfstraum said:


> the commentators are not given good info - the Belgian Sheepdog is NOT known as Europes best police dog! GSDs and maybe Mailnois!!! the Groendahl is probably the 3rd most popular of the 4 types of this breed
> 
> The Boucheron looks more like a working GSD than the GSD
> 
> 
> Lee


I heard that too, it did sound odd. The Boucheron was a fabulous looking dog.


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## gsdheeler

I liked the boucheron but I couldn't handle the double dews, I know they have to have them, just does not suit my eye.


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## wolfstraum

I think this female is a step in the right direction - still too angulated for my taste - but definitely a nicer female than any I have ever seen in the AKC ring....temperament looked solid in the congratulations furor after the win....she did not seem phased by the environment like the Malinois appeared to be....of course she was won alot of BOB, Groups and BIS already...

Lee


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## carmspack

Beauceron --good friend and excellent decoy , breeder of Beauceron who DO like old type working GSD --
all his dogs , even the malinois are level headed 

introduction 

pictures


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## Susan_GSD_mom

carmspack said:


> Beauceron --good friend and excellent decoy , breeder of Beauceron who DO like old type working GSD --
> all his dogs , even the malinois are level headed
> 
> introduction
> 
> pictures


Carmen, I've been attracted to the Beaceron for years, and by this time I am probably to old to even dream of one, both financially and 'energetically', lol. I did read the introduction, your first link, but does he have a full website I can look at? Just want to daydream, I guess...
Also, I did notice dogs with uncropped ears. Does that go against breed standards? I think I will check...

Susan


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## mspiker03

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Carmen, I've been attracted to the Beaceron for years, and by this time I am probably to old to even dream of one, both financially and 'energetically', lol. I did read the introduction, your first link, but does he have a full website I can look at? Just want to daydream, I guess...
> 
> Also, I did notice dogs with uncropped ears. Does that go against breed standards? I think I will check...
> 
> 
> 
> Susan



I met a really nice Beauceron last weekend when I went herding. I believe he was from Europe (the lady was French or Swiss - spoke French). She said that they are not allowed to crop in Europe.


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## Xeph

Beauceron...it's Beauceron. And on what planet do they resemble a GSD at all? Gideon is a nice dog.

As for Rumor, I support her people and her campaign. Her temperament *is* as nice as it appears. She's a very honest animal in that regard. Rock solid, and a wonderful personality to boot.

As for when they started allowing class dogs, originally, Westminster was an open show just like any other, and you competed for points. It got so large that not all dogs could be accommodated, and went to champions only. Now that it is moved to the piers, class animals are allowed again, but must have won at least one major prior to the show in order to compete.


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## Jax08

Jackie - doesn't Rumor work in some way? Herding?


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Xeph said:


> Beauceron...it's Beauceron. And on what planet do they resemble a GSD at all? Gideon is a nice dog.
> 
> As for Rumor, I support her people and her campaign. Her temperament *is* as nice as it appears. She's a very honest animal in that regard. Rock solid, and a wonderful personality to boot.
> 
> As for when they started allowing class dogs, originally, Westminster was an open show just like any other, and you competed for points. It got so large that not all dogs could be accommodated, and went to champions only. Now that it is moved to the piers, class animals are allowed again, but must have won at least one major prior to the show in order to compete.


Congratulations Jackie.Love your dogs and you should be incredibly proud of them and yourself.


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## holland

Xeph said:


> Beauceron...it's Beauceron. And on what planet do they resemble a GSD at all? Gideon is a nice dog.
> 
> As for Rumor, I support her people and her campaign. Her temperament *is* as nice as it appears. She's a very honest animal in that regard. Rock solid, and a wonderful personality to boot.
> 
> As for when they started allowing class dogs, originally, Westminster was an open show just like any other, and you competed for points. It got so large that not all dogs could be accommodated, and went to champions only. Now that it is moved to the piers, class animals are allowed again, but must have won at least one major prior to the show in order to compete.


Can I just point out that I said Beauceron-she does she look like she has a lovely temperament-but I thought white spots were a fault


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## dogfaeries

holland said:


> Can I just point out that I said Beauceron-she does she look like she has a lovely temperament-but I thought white spots were a fault


White spots on a GSD? Nope, not a fault.


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## Jenny720

dogfaeries said:


> And the GSD bashing begins on Westminster's FB. Good grief, can people just let someone enjoy their win for 5 minutes before starting with the crippled dog crap?? I'm so disgusted.


Rumor is gorgeous and wonder how people can make that statement I did not see one thing that made me cringe. I also like mega bucks. The two just stand out to me. She looked solid to me doesn't matter how many times she has done this. I hope she wins tonight. The judge liked her right away and hoping this makes a big statement in what direction to head with the asl. Judges owe the asls this win as it is well deserved. I will be for Rumor tonight. !!!!!!!!!


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## MayzieGSD

dogfaeries said:


> White spots on a GSD? Nope, not a fault.


I actually like the white patch 
And I am not generally a fan of the ASL look but I like her.


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## dogfaeries

I did love when Kent let her out on the end of the lead and she free stacked for the judge.


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## Jenny720

dogfaeries said:


> I did love when Kent let her out on the end of the lead and she free stacked for the judge.


That was the best!!!!


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## dogfaeries

MayzieGSD said:


> I actually like the white patch
> And I am not generally a fan of the ASL look but I like her.


My Sage had a big white patch on her chest too. I never really noticed it until I saw it in photos. Don't see it in show photos, since they are taken from the side!


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## B&Cgetapup

Just logged on for the first time in a while looking for opinions of Rumor. Watching her last year, especially in the Breed class I thought she was much more "correct" than her heavily ASL looking competitors. Hopefully her success is a step in the right direction! What little knowledge I could get from her breeders website, they do a lot of work in titling their animals outside of the conformation ring, so wonderful!

On another note, has anyone else caught their dogs watching the show? Our Rommel was very captivated by the Mastiff and Cane Corso, probably because they look like his buddy Atlas!


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## B&Cgetapup

Watching the show!
Please excuse the car parts and vaccume, we have been taking treats off of it all day to make friends.







Our friend Atlas!







And an updated picture of Rommel from his second birthday in September.


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## Stonevintage

Wow - camera angles lol. Your photo 2 looks like that just that dog's back end weight 100 lbs. What kind of dog is it and is it as huge as it appears?


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## B&Cgetapup

Its a Cane Corso, 180lbs if my memory serves me well. He is very large! His mother pictured is a small woman, but the man standing cut off in the picture is about 5'10" and as you can see Atlas comes to his waist when sitting.


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## cloudpump

B&Cgetapup said:


> On another note, has anyone else caught their dogs watching the show? Our Rommel was very captivated by the Mastiff and Cane Corso, probably because they look like his buddy Atlas!



On a side note, do that many breeders really feed Purina like the commercials say?


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## Moriah

I am wondering if they are feeding Purina AFTER they win BIS and get a monetary incentive to feed Purina or say that they are. One piece of kibble a day is feeding Purina.


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## dogfaeries

Best in Show coming up, kiddies. Come on, Rumor!


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## dogfaeries

Moriah said:


> I am wondering if they are feeding Purina AFTER they win BIS and get a monetary incentive to feed Purina or say that they are. One piece of kibble a day is feeding Purina.


I don't know. I know a ton of show people who feed ProPlan.


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## llombardo

I think Rumor looked good coming out for the best in show. I like the samoyed too. This is interesting... Drum roll please.......


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## dogfaeries

I'm about to have a breakdown, LOL


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## llombardo

I didn't see either of those coming.,,,,


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## dogfaeries

Argh. Nope.


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## Jenny720

oh well i jumped up when the judge said german but the second word was not shepherd. I cant imagine how kent must of felt. I really liked the german shorthair pointer but really hoping Rumor would win.


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## dogfaeries

Jenny720 said:


> oh well i jumped up when the judge said german but the second word was not shepherd. I cant imagine how kent must of felt. I really liked the german shorthair pointer but really hoping Rumor would win.


I know! He said German and headed to the front of the line, and I started jumping up and down. Then the GSP has the ribbon?? So very disappointed.


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## Jenny720

dogfaeries said:


> I know! He said German and headed to the front of the line, and I started jumping up and down. Then the GSP has the ribbon?? So very disappointed.


It was quite the high and then crash


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## Blitzkrieg1

A bunch of pets running around in circles. All being bred, and touted as excellent examples of their respective breeds. What's not to love .
..sad to see a malinois there..not surprising but sad.


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## car2ner

Not to say that the GSP doesn't deserve a win but do you think the judges are messing with everyone? They won't let media tell them who to choose? 

Just a random musing.


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## Jenny720

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> A bunch of pets running around in circles. All being bred, and touted as excellent examples of their respective breeds. What's not to love .
> ..sad to see a malinois there..not surprising but sad.


And you watched it Whose to say what else those dogs do. I know many breeders that do much more then have their dogs run in circles. I can say sarcastic things about anyone,anyones hobby,anything at all but not that kind of person I see that as a weakness.


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## Jenny720

car2ner said:


> Not to say that the GSP doesn't deserve a win but do you think the judges are messing with everyone? They won't let media tell them who to choose?
> 
> Just a random musing.


I hope they chose on there own but who really knows. Last night though seemed like the judge had a bit fun.


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## llombardo

I thought he chose rather quickly. Most of the time they do a second run around, but he seemed to know right away?


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## wolfstraum

I was not surprised at all....... The Pointer really had presence - and from the front tracked straight....I haven't watched Westminster in many years and was just absolutely amazed to see so many dogs who paddled or winged in front! I would expect that to be a fault in any breed yet here were BOB dogs who moved so incorrectly! Stacking straight is deceptive - same in horses but there you don't get dinged - you get slammed for poor front on movement. I saw at least one dog - the Saint??? - who was dead lame.

I was not surprised at all by the Pointer's win - he was so correct, so confident....and seriously - not trying to be snotty - I do know alot of people in the AKC world in other breeds and the general opinion of the GSD in that world is bad - My vet and her husband and most of the staff at the clinic show some breed - Huskies, Golderns, Greyhounds, Cavaliers....I have a close friend who raises top notch Viszla's, and another with GSPointers - and they both have second breeds - so attending a show wiht them I have gotten to understand the AKC world (politics, points, choosing judges, specialties etc) and never have I heard any thing but disparagement of the type of GSD commonly shown (the extremes, the temperament issues).....to even take group is a big step forward for the breed at this level....I used to do matches where there was both OB and a fun puppy match with real AKC judges - took Danger in a few and got BOB and Group placements - and always comments about how this was what a GSD was supposed to be! So take it in baby steps - maybe they will campaign the female again next year - maybe another more moderate more appealing to the masses GSD will rise up to be the next star. 

Lee


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## llombardo

I think the Samoyed was the most correct, right down to the trot across the ring. 

Don't be upset with me


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## WateryTart

wolfstraum said:


> I was not surprised at all....... The Pointer really had presence - and from the front tracked straight....I haven't watched Westminster in many years and was just absolutely amazed to see so many dogs who paddled or winged in front! I would expect that to be a fault in any breed yet here were BOB dogs who moved so incorrectly! Stacking straight is deceptive - same in horses but there you don't get dinged - you get slammed for poor front on movement. I saw at least one dog - the Saint??? - who was dead lame.
> 
> I was not surprised at all by the Pointer's win - he was so correct, so confident....and seriously - not trying to be snotty - I do know alot of people in the AKC world in other breeds and the general opinion of the GSD in that world is bad - My vet and her husband and most of the staff at the clinic show some breed - Huskies, Golderns, Greyhounds, Cavaliers....I have a close friend who raises top notch Viszla's, and another with GSPointers - and they both have second breeds - so attending a show wiht them I have gotten to understand the AKC world (politics, points, choosing judges, specialties etc) and never have I heard any thing but disparagement of the type of GSD commonly shown (the extremes, the temperament issues).....to even take group is a big step forward for the breed at this level....I used to do matches where there was both OB and a fun puppy match with real AKC judges - took Danger in a few and got BOB and Group placements - and always comments about how this was what a GSD was supposed to be! So take it in baby steps - maybe they will campaign the female again next year - maybe another more moderate more appealing to the masses GSD will rise up to be the next star.
> 
> Lee


I haven't watched the BIS video yet but I heard that pointer was incredible. It sounded like his win was deserved.

I'm not anywhere near as far into showing/competing as you are, but oh my, the negativity I've heard about the GSD (both WL and ASL, but mostly ASL). I chatted with a Flat Coat Retriever handler at a show once, because my husband likes Flat Coats and I took the opportunity to meet a couple of them. The handler gave me a look like I had two heads when I mentioned we had a GSD at home, that a retriever would have been my husband's presence but I'd been heavily in favor of a GSD.

Even on dog handler pages, the disparagement of the ASL is rampant. It isn't surprising to me knowing the general reputation of the GSD, yet I always still do a double take when I see or hear it because the breeders I know are looking to a more moderate structure - like Rumor's. So my sample and therefore my view of normal is a bit truncated.


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## wolfstraum

WateryTart said:


> I haven't watched the BIS video yet but I heard that pointer was incredible. It sounded like his win was deserved.
> 
> I'm not anywhere near as far into showing/competing as you are, but oh my, the negativity I've heard about the GSD (both WL and ASL, but mostly ASL). I chatted with a Flat Coat Retriever handler at a show once, because my husband likes Flat Coats and I took the opportunity to meet a couple of them. The handler gave me a look like I had two heads when I mentioned we had a GSD at home, that a retriever would have been my husband's presence but I'd been heavily in favor of a GSD.
> 
> Even on dog handler pages, the disparagement of the ASL is rampant. It isn't surprising to me knowing the general reputation of the GSD, yet I always still do a double take when I see or hear it because the breeders I know are looking to a more moderate structure - like Rumor's. So my sample and therefore my view of normal is a bit truncated.



No - I think your experience gave you insight.....we have to be objective....I know people that absolutely HATE me because I am critical of the ASL - seriously - even someone on this board who has been nasty when I tried to be normal and cordial and even supportive in certain situations has been confrontational and rude - because I do not support what the AKC people have done to this breed and have been critical of temperament. But if there is no self examination, no objectivity - there is no progress or change.

Lee


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## WIBackpacker

WateryTart said:


> I'm not anywhere near as far into showing/competing as you are, but oh my, the negativity I've heard about the GSD (both WL and ASL, but mostly ASL). I chatted with a Flat Coat Retriever handler at a show once, because my husband likes Flat Coats and I took the opportunity to meet a couple of them. The handler gave me a look like I had two heads when I mentioned we had a GSD at home, that a retriever would have been my husband's presence but I'd been heavily in favor of a GSD.
> 
> Even on dog handler pages, the disparagement of the ASL is rampant. It isn't surprising to me knowing the general reputation of the GSD, yet I always still do a double take when I see or hear it because the breeders I know are looking to a more moderate structure - like Rumor's. So my sample and therefore my view of normal is a bit truncated.


This was also my experience, across a few different venues. When I went from training at a GSDC to an all-breed club, I felt like I'd been living in the Truman Show. It was.... a shock, at first. 

Since I don't breed dogs, it's been my goal to just put my head down, keep my mouth shut when other breed enthusiasts spew anti-GSD commentary, and keep training and work harder. Actions speak louder than words, and if we can showcase German Shepherds that compete against other breeds in different venues, we might help move opinions forward.


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## DutchKarin

Wouldn't it be cool if in order to be in these confirmation shows at the highest level the dog and handler would have to have one title in the area that the dog was actually intended for? Wonder how that would change things up. 

I wonder how many Westminster dogs actually work in their respective areas. I keep thinking about the labrador that finished high in his group, that dog looked like a fat tank and I cannot imagine he would excel in the field. 

IMHO.


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## WIBackpacker

DutchKarin said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if in order to be in these confirmation shows at the highest level the dog and handler would have to have one title in the area that the dog was actually intended for? Wonder how that would change things up.


That's an interesting question. 

We just had this conversation at training: Currently at the GSDCA National, if your dog gets the top qualifying score, before s/he can receive the herding Victor/Victrix title, s/he needs to be physically inspected by an AKC judge to be free of disqualifying conformation faults before the herding title is officially received.

If you flip that around, perhaps the top qualifying conformation dog/bitch would be inspected by a judge to pass HIC/HIT before the conformation title is officially received. This isn't difficult, but it does (or _should_) certify that correct instinct is present. 

The question also came up (and I didn't know the answer) - in the breed standard for Border Collies, physical injuries incurred during work are specifically not to be penalized in the conformation ring. Missing teeth, etc. I looked briefly, but I didn't find this exception in the GSD standard.


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## Jenny720

There are a quite a few in herding titles training titles not all but many.I loved the paws of the gs pointer so compact. He very oozed strength. I know a labrador breeder she has some nice dogs and never known how calm they can be and a i know someone that has a boxer in shows. They have nothing nice to say about the german shepherd period but they are a abomination,spooks aggressive, and many have ocd with balls. This is all lines they speak of


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## WateryTart

wolfstraum said:


> No - I think your experience gave you insight.....we have to be objective....I know people that absolutely HATE me because I am critical of the ASL - seriously - even someone on this board who has been nasty when I tried to be normal and cordial and even supportive in certain situations has been confrontational and rude - because I do not support what the AKC people have done to this breed and have been critical of temperament. But if there is no self examination, no objectivity - there is no progress or change.
> 
> Lee


I hope it is helpful rather than limiting. I struggle sometimes to understand the critiques because that isn't my normal, so I would have made a case for it being more limiting than enlightening. I have to step back to realize that the generalization is sometimes a very fair assessment, and sometimes it is not applicable.

My personal preference is a moderate ASL dog - visually, Rumor is my gold standard - but I understand that this is very subjective.


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## dogfaeries

WIBackpacker said:


> If you flip that around, perhaps the top qualifying conformation dog/bitch would be inspected by a judge to pass HIC/HIT before the conformation title is officially received. This isn't difficult, but it does (or _should_) certify that correct instinct is present.



Makes sense, and I'd be on board with that. My Champion girl got her Herding Instinct Certificate (2 tests under 2 different judges) well before she finished her championship. In my neck of the woods, you can find instinct tests a couple of times a year at the all breed shows.


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## WateryTart

dogfaeries said:


> Makes sense, and I'd be on board with that. My Champion girl got her Herding Instinct Certificate (2 tests under 2 different judges) well before she finished her championship. In my neck of the woods, you can find instinct tests a couple of times a year at the all breed shows.


I'll have to look at all-breed shows, thanks for that tip. I'm debating whether I want to just have mine evaluated by a herding instructor/handler or if I want to get the certification. The former would be much more convenient (especially since I haven't found any offerings of the HIT), but a certification is a certification, so I'm still deciding.


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## dogfaeries

WateryTart said:


> I'll have to look at all-breed shows, thanks for that tip. I'm debating whether I want to just have mine evaluated by a herding instructor/handler or if I want to get the certification. The former would be much more convenient (especially since I haven't found any offerings of the HIT), but a certification is a certification, so I'm still deciding.



The certificate is nice to have,  but it was fun watching others do the test too. Shelties on ducks was kind of interesting!


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## WateryTart

dogfaeries said:


> The certificate is nice to have,  but it was fun watching others do the test too. *Shelties on ducks was kind of interesting!*


I feel like I NEED to see this.


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## dogfaeries

Lol, we kept saying to each other on the sidelines "I think that's chasing, not herding!". They certainly were having fun.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

DutchKarin said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if in order to be in these confirmation shows at the highest level the dog and handler would have to have one title in the area that the dog was actually intended for? Wonder how that would change things up.
> 
> I wonder how many Westminster dogs actually work in their respective areas. I keep thinking about the labrador that finished high in his group, that dog looked like a fat tank and I cannot imagine he would excel in the field.
> 
> IMHO.


did not watch WM this year due to work and other things but in the 15 years Ive watched alot of show dogs particularly in the herding and sporting as well as working have titles in venuesother thn conformation.Alot of agility ,OB fly ball especially w/the Australian Shepherd and Border collie's.See alot of therapy dogs in all the groups.The terrier dogs have a big number of dogs who are tested in things like Barnhunt and other terrier type instinct and activities. I see alot of greyhounds and saluki's as well as other sight hounds who have titles in lure coursing.Jackie's dogs have been involved i some herding. Ive met her dogs and they are not only beautiful but have good temperments and are wicked smart just like any GSD. Alot of conformation folks do alot of other things w/ their dogs. Its an expensive hobby or living. showing or racing horses is about the only more expensive thing you can do as a pet/animal owner lover.Cant tell you how many GSD have ben therapy dogs who Ive seen in the show ring.


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## dogfaeries

I know quite a few people who do conformation first, finish their dog, and then go on to sports. Get a title at the front, and then work on the back end.


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## llombardo

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> did not watch WM this year due to work and other things but in the 15 years Ive watched alot of show dogs particularly in the herding and sporting as well as working have titles in venuesother thn conformation.Alot of agility ,OB fly ball especially w/the Australian Shepherd and Border collie's.See alot of therapy dogs in all the groups.The terrier dogs have a big number of dogs who are tested in things like Barnhunt and other terrier type instinct and activities. I see alot of greyhounds and saluki's as well as other sight hounds who have titles in lure coursing.Jackie's dogs have been involved i some herding. Ive met her dogs and they are not only beautiful but have good temperments and are wicked smart just like any GSD. Alot of conformation folks do alot of other things w/ their dogs. Its an expensive hobby or living. showing or racing horses is about the only more expensive thing you can do as a pet/animal owner lover.Cant tell you how many GSD have ben therapy dogs who Ive seen in the show ring.


I've never really paid attention to this, but I did notice it yesterday. They mentioned therapy dogs, agility and even barn hunts.


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## ctidmore

I do breed GSD’s, and for the first time in a good while I felt Rumor was a GOOD example of what the breed should be. I don’t do much in conformation because that is not my focus; the titles on the other end mean more to me. But of all the pictures and videos of Rumor on the bench; this girl appears to have a VERY nice temperament and we need to get that back and less angles and we will be on the right road again. I had thought that either Rumor or the GSP would be winner and whichever one did not win would be second.Well I was wrong, but the GSP was a VERY nice dog, and BIG congratulations to BOTH!!


----------



## selzer

DutchKarin said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if in order to be in these confirmation shows at the highest level the dog and handler would have to have one title in the area that the dog was actually intended for? Wonder how that would change things up.
> 
> I wonder how many Westminster dogs actually work in their respective areas. I keep thinking about the labrador that finished high in his group, that dog looked like a fat tank and I cannot imagine he would excel in the field.
> 
> IMHO.


DutchKarin, Wouldn't it be nice if IPO dogs had to have a show rating before going for whatever title they are heading out on the field for? I wonder how that would change things up.

Well, I suppose it wouldn't change much at all, because in the SV the sieger show dogs have to have those titles you are talking about, and all we ever hear about the winners there is a bunch of sour grapes from the WL dog owners. The titles are made of no account, midnight trials. Do you really think that if it was a requirement at Westminster it would be any different at all?

Here's a thought: why not let show dogs be show dogs, and if your focus is on the working lines, enjoy them in the venues of your choice. No need to butt into the show ring and tell those guys how to better their breeds, because you wouldn't like them coming onto your field and telling you how to better yours.

Or should we stage dog fights just so those breeds that were bred for that purpose can get themselves a title? 

Maybe we should have bull baiting so breeds bred for that can be titled.

Last I heard fox hunting with dogs is no longer allowed, maybe we should scratch all the dogs created for that sport off the books. No point in them anymore. 

I have a few obedience titles, and I have done some matches with dogs, and did a conformation class. Hands down, I would do obedience any day over conformation. Conformation is a lot more than pets going in circles in a ring. Those who have never done it, will always make fun of it I guess.

And there is nothing humble about your opinion, so why add that?


----------



## Jenny720

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> did not watch WM this year due to work and other things but in the 15 years Ive watched alot of show dogs particularly in the herding and sporting as well as working have titles in venuesother thn conformation.Alot of agility ,OB fly ball especially w/the Australian Shepherd and Border collie's.See alot of therapy dogs in all the groups.The terrier dogs have a big number of dogs who are tested in things like Barnhunt and other terrier type instinct and activities. I see alot of greyhounds and saluki's as well as other sight hounds who have titles in lure coursing.Jackie's dogs have been involved i some herding. Ive met her dogs and they are not only beautiful but have good temperments and are wicked smart just like any GSD. Alot of conformation folks do alot of other things w/ their dogs. Its an expensive hobby or living. showing or racing horses is about the only more expensive thing you can do as a pet/animal owner lover.Cant tell you how many GSD have ben therapy dogs who Ive seen in the show ring.


----------



## Jenny720

selzer said:


> DutchKarin, Wouldn't it be nice if IPO dogs had to have a show rating before going for whatever title they are heading out on the field for? I wonder how that would change things up.
> 
> Well, I suppose it wouldn't change much at all, because in the SV the sieger show dogs have to have those titles you are talking about, and all we ever hear about the winners there is a bunch of sour grapes from the WL dog owners. The titles are made of no account, midnight trials. Do you really think that if it was a requirement at Westminster it would be any different at all?
> 
> Here's a thought: why not let show dogs be show dogs, and if your focus is on the working lines, enjoy them in the venues of your choice. No need to butt into the show ring and tell those guys how to better their breeds, because you wouldn't like them coming onto your field and telling you how to better yours.
> 
> Or should we stage dog fights just so those breeds that were bred for that purpose can get themselves a title?
> 
> Maybe we should have bull baiting so breeds bred for that can be titled.
> 
> Last I heard fox hunting with dogs is no longer allowed, maybe we should scratch all the dogs created for that sport off the books. No point in them anymore.
> 
> I have a few obedience titles, and I have done some matches with dogs, and did a conformation class. Hands down, I would do obedience any day over conformation. Conformation is a lot more than pets going in circles in a ring. Those who have never done it, will always make fun of it I guess.
> 
> And there is nothing humble about your opinion, so why add that?


----------



## SuperG

Not that it matters but I believe Zamp was a first as a world sieger competing in a beauty pageant ..Crufts and did pretty well ...best of breed or best male....not sure....but the Zampmeister did stack up awfully well in a strict conformation setting.....don't know how many others have accomplished this.


SuperG


----------



## Jax08

DutchKarin said:


> Wouldn't it be cool if in order to be in these confirmation shows at the highest level the dog and handler would have to have one title in the area that the dog was actually intended for? Wonder how that would change things up.
> 
> I wonder how many Westminster dogs actually work in their respective areas. I keep thinking about the labrador that finished high in his group, that dog looked like a fat tank and I cannot imagine he would excel in the field.
> 
> IMHO.


Jackie and I had a fairly good conversation in a thread about this just recently. It was either in a thread about Patrick or Rumor. Can't remember. I'll look for it. It was really nice to be able to talk to a show line person without all the nastiness and defensiveness that always ensues. Let me look for it.

Field and show labs....different species! lol Love the field labs. Sleek, drivey, full of energy.


----------



## Jax08

DK - here it is
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/605810-really-what-breed-standard-calls.html


----------



## selzer

SuperG said:


> Not that it matters but I believe Zamp was a first as a world sieger competing in a beauty pageant ..Crufts and did pretty well ...best of breed or best male....not sure....but the Zampmeister did stack up awfully well in a strict conformation setting.....don't know how many others have accomplished this.
> 
> 
> SuperG


The World Sieger is a beauty contest as you put it, just in the SV. The dogs entered require titles and an endurance test, and protection, but the dogs are shown for conformation -- that is what Zamp was. 

It is similar to the Grand Victor at the German Shepherd Nationals in the US. Only our Grand Victor/Victrix do not need titles to compete.

The Sieger show is not a Schutzhund/IPO competition, nor a working dog trial championship. Just a beauty contest with a few more requirements that many on this site generally think aren't worth much.

Of course the beauty contest is actually a competition of how dogs match up to the standard. And really not a beauty contest at all.


----------



## DutchKarin

selzer said:


> DutchKarin, Wouldn't it be nice if IPO dogs had to have a show rating before going for whatever title they are heading out on the field for? I wonder how that would change things up.
> 
> Well, I suppose it wouldn't change much at all, because in the SV the sieger show dogs have to have those titles you are talking about, and all we ever hear about the winners there is a bunch of sour grapes from the WL dog owners. The titles are made of no account, midnight trials. Do you really think that if it was a requirement at Westminster it would be any different at all?
> 
> Here's a thought: why not let show dogs be show dogs, and if your focus is on the working lines, enjoy them in the venues of your choice. No need to butt into the show ring and tell those guys how to better their breeds, because you wouldn't like them coming onto your field and telling you how to better yours.
> 
> Or should we stage dog fights just so those breeds that were bred for that purpose can get themselves a title?
> 
> Maybe we should have bull baiting so breeds bred for that can be titled.
> 
> Last I heard fox hunting with dogs is no longer allowed, maybe we should scratch all the dogs created for that sport off the books. No point in them anymore.
> 
> I have a few obedience titles, and I have done some matches with dogs, and did a conformation class. Hands down, I would do obedience any day over conformation. Conformation is a lot more than pets going in circles in a ring. Those who have never done it, will always make fun of it I guess.
> 
> And there is nothing humble about your opinion, so why add that?


Ouch. I think I got you on a bad day.


----------



## DutchKarin

Jax08 said:


> DK - here it is
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/605810-really-what-breed-standard-calls.html


Thanks Jax... interesting read. Appreciate it.


----------



## selzer

DutchKarin said:


> Ouch. I think I got you on a bad day.


 Maybe. 

But this site is predominantly pets and all the problems people have with them. 

Where that isn't the case it's working line people talking about working line stuff, protection sports, IPO, decoys, helpers, will-my-dog-protect-me, and so on and so forth. 

The itty bitty time when the ASL people rear their heads, or the GSL people have their little doing, Westminster or the Seiger show, in comes the barrage of working line people demanding that show dogs have titles. 

It's ridiculous. Some show dogs DO have titles, but nothing you people think is worth the paper it is printed on, so they don't count. 

Just let them have their day. It's no skin off your nose. Really. Nothing in the world is going to compel you to get a dog with Rumor in its background. Nothing. No herding titles. If the dog got an IPO, it would just be a fluke and you still wouldn't want her in your dog's background, so why not just let her be. It's a venue you don't care about. 

And they will NEVER breed Rumor to a working line dog. They want nothing to do with them. They never will. ASL people don't generally want to breed back to GSL either. They have different opinions about the dogs. GSL people wouldn't breed to ASL either, it is not going to make a moderate dog. It would be better to breed to a moderate dog in your own lines. There is no point for ASL people to say things like, "How cool you can do all that with your dog, it's a pity you don't get a champion on him." 

Just let the show line people have their day without spewing all over it.


----------



## Jax08

DutchKarin said:


> Thanks Jax... interesting read. Appreciate it.


I thought so. It was an interesting conversation with Jackie.


----------



## SuperG

Quote:
Originally Posted by *selzer*  
_The World Sieger is a beauty contest as you put it, just in the SV. The dogs entered require titles and an endurance test, and protection, but the dogs are shown for conformation -- that is what Zamp was. 

It is similar to the Grand Victor at the German Shepherd Nationals in the US. Only our Grand Victor/Victrix do not need titles to compete.

The Sieger show is not a Schutzhund/IPO competition, nor a working dog trial championship. Just a beauty contest with a few more requirements that many on this site generally think aren't worth much.

Of course the beauty contest is actually a competition of how dogs match up to the standard. And really not a beauty contest at all._

If this posts twice..my apologies,

Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you.

A conformation show such as Westminster and many others is based on exactly that....conformation. A world sieger champion has to pass numerous other requirements....regardless of what others may think....it is more involved than simply conformation ...

Perhaps, your very own words from a few years ago will refresh your memory....posted below.

SuperG













What a completely rude and obnoxious comment. The guy has a dog out of the World Sieger, and you have to diss it. Sounds like jealousy, immaturity, and ignorance.

A world sieger has to: 

1. get the top rating in a class of maybe 600+ dogs, he beat out all of them, at the Sieger show (happens once a year in Germany).

2. at the show pass the protection phase.

3. have passing hips, elbows, be DNA's, be breed survey'd, conform to the standard.

4. have a schutzhund III. 

5. pass the endurance test ad

6. run around that ring for hours with no sign of tiring.

7. generally they have to produce a progeny group as well.

8. I think they have to also run around in the ring off lead with their owners among a good number of other mature intact males, so if they are dog aggressive, their obedience has to be better than and reactiveness.


----------



## selzer

SuperG said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *selzer*
> _The World Sieger is a beauty contest as you put it, just in the SV. The dogs entered require titles and an endurance test, and protection, but the dogs are shown for conformation -- that is what Zamp was.
> 
> It is similar to the Grand Victor at the German Shepherd Nationals in the US. Only our Grand Victor/Victrix do not need titles to compete.
> 
> The Sieger show is not a Schutzhund/IPO competition, nor a working dog trial championship. Just a beauty contest with a few more requirements that many on this site generally think aren't worth much.
> 
> Of course the beauty contest is actually a competition of how dogs match up to the standard. And really not a beauty contest at all._
> 
> If this posts twice..my apologies,
> 
> Sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you.
> 
> A conformation show such as Westminster and many others is based on exactly that....conformation. A world sieger champion has to pass numerous other requirements....regardless of what others may think....it is more involved than simply conformation ...
> 
> Perhaps, your very own words from a few years ago will refresh your memory....posted below.
> 
> SuperG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a completely rude and obnoxious comment. The guy has a dog out of the World Sieger, and you have to diss it. Sounds like jealousy, immaturity, and ignorance.
> 
> A world sieger has to:
> 
> 1. get the top rating in a class of maybe 600+ dogs, he beat out all of them, at the Sieger show (happens once a year in Germany).
> 
> 2. at the show pass the protection phase.
> 
> 3. have passing hips, elbows, be DNA's, be breed survey'd, conform to the standard.
> 
> 4. have a schutzhund III.
> 
> 5. pass the endurance test ad
> 
> 6. run around that ring for hours with no sign of tiring.
> 
> 7. generally they have to produce a progeny group as well.
> 
> 8. I think they have to also run around in the ring off lead with their owners among a good number of other mature intact males, so if they are dog aggressive, their obedience has to be better than and reactiveness.


All of that stuff is a given, who can enter the show, but the judging is based on how the dog's conformation matches the standard in the judge's opinion. 

I do not think AKC conformation is a beauty contest either, nor easy to achieve. The only dog that gets points at the end of the day is BOB. If it is an all breed show, the dog can get more points in group if he wins, and for BOS. But, all the rest, no points. Not only do you have to earn a number of points, but you have to have a couple of majors -- shows with enough dogs entered to give you significant wins. If you enter a show that had enough dogs last year for a major, and this year they were entered and 3 didn't show, oops, no major for you, even though you did win. 

For titles, you just have to show up and perform the tasks that you have practiced to a sufficient level of competency. Big Whupp! You do not have to defeat every dog there to get the points. Every dog there can get a title if they are all competent. Not so in conformation showing.


----------



## dogfaeries

selzer said:


> Not only do you have to earn a number of points, but you have to have a couple of majors -- shows with enough dogs entered to give you significant wins. If you enter a show that had enough dogs last year for a major, and this year they were entered and 3 didn't show, oops, no major for you, even though you did win.
> 
> For titles, you just have to show up and perform the tasks that you have practiced to a sufficient level of competency. Big Whupp! You do not have to defeat every dog there to get the points. Every dog there can get a title if they are all competent. Not so in conformation showing.


Yeah, it can be a real drag sometimes, LOL. Sage made a trip to Tulsa one time, beat 20 other GSDs, including 3 specials (champions), to go Best of Breed, and it wasn't a major. Two points, argh. You'd think they would've thrown in an extra point for the EF5 tornado she went through 5 days before!


----------



## wolfstraum

It is NOT the best of breed dog who gets points. In AKC, each breed has a variety of classes - Novice, American Bred, Bred by Exhibitor as well as age group classes - for males and females, in some breeds there are also color classes. After all classes held, then all winners are judged against each other by sex. Winners Dog and Winners Bitch - THIS is where points towards championships are given  - you need 15 - with I think at least 3 being "majors" - 3 -5 points - so your dog must beat a larger number of dogs to get a major - it varies in every breed. Then the two winners are looked at again- and one is chosen "Best of Winners" - and the other then becomes Best of Opposite Sex. The points can be adjusted here depending on how many dogs were in each sex.

After the Winners are chosen - then Best of Breed is in - the BOW animal then goes into 'Breed"....The winner of BOB goes into Group - the winner of Group goes on to Best in Show. In the last ??? years - there are now "Grand Champion" points as well....I am not as familar with this - have to get my Viszla friend to explain as she has a Grand Champion or two now.

Lee


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

At the end of the day you cannot rely on any registry or sporting venue to set a benchmark for quality dogs or ensure said benchmark is met.

Both exist to FIRST drive membership which = Money and SECOND promote and maintain whatever standards they ascribe too.

Case in point, judging in IPO that awards Pronounced ratings in protection to nerve bags. Numerous IPO 3 dogs that scraped through the title and are promoted and bred.

AKC shepherds that lack character, hardness or drive for any type of meaningful work application. 

Its the same on the hunting side, pointers and hounds that are AKC show dogs are largely considered useless or second rate for actual use in the field. If you want a superior dog to hunt over, retrieve or track game you go to proven field bred lines.
Que: Some idiot posting a pic of an AKC show lab with a duck in its mouth.. 

Yes certain sport venues can be a guide or indicator of actual ability and are better then nothing but in the end if you rely soley on titles in any venue as an indicator of what pups are going to be you will more often then not be sadly dissapointed.

Show ratings serve no purpose in the evaluation of a dog for any kind of application beyond looking pretty. However its the easiest thing to breed for, easiest to evaluate and requires little ability as a handler. 
Therefor more attractiveand accessible to the public.


----------



## dogfaeries

wolfstraum said:


> In the last ??? years - there are now "Grand Champion" points as well....I am not as familar with this - have to get my Viszla friend to explain as she has a Grand Champion or two now.
> 
> Lee


You need 15 points with 2 majors for your championship. Your majors must be under different judges. For example, my bitch Carly finished her championship with 19 points, and 3 majors, in limited showing. I never got to finish Sage. She died with 13 points, one 4 point major, and 4 major reserves, also in limited showing. So close! 

For a Grand you need 25 points with 3 majors and defeat a champion of record at 3 of these shows. Your majors must be under different judges. Carly has 6 Grand Ch points, with champions defeated at 3 events. I've only shown her 3 weekends as a special. (She has 2 Best of Breeds and 2 Selects). I'm not interested in pursuing a Grand Championship though, it's just too expensive! I've just shown her for fun locally.


----------



## WateryTart

While I generally favor less regulation as opposed to more, I don't think encouraging or incentivizing show breeders to work and title their dogs is a bad idea.

One of my personal must haves in a breeder was someone who worked their dogs in something. I was willing to be openminded on what, but in my opinion this benefits me (the buyer) in two ways: 1) I can get an idea of what if anything the dogs can do, and 2) I have a mentor in my breeder when it comes to getting started in a dog sport. Those things are valuable. I wouldn't necessarily lean toward requiring anything, but it's certainly a nice thing to see and should be encouraged.


----------



## carmspack

The Westminster Kennel Club | Videos

there were more than a few in the herding group that were
spooky


----------



## Jenny720

carmspack said:


> The Westminster Kennel Club | Videos
> 
> there were more than a few in the herding group that were
> spooky


I have seen spooky working lines.


----------



## carmspack

yes , but they weren't at Westminster representing some sort of an ideal for the breed.
To get to this point there was a lot of show experience before and should have been weeded out.
One of the short tailed dogs had a tight clamp. Avoided the judge , who was well aware and retried the dog a few times to give it a chance . When the dog went into motion tail unclamps - but when returning to the judge you can see lofting of hackles and at base of tail.


----------



## Jenny720

carmspack said:


> yes , but they weren't at Westminster representing some sort of an ideal for the breed.
> To get to this point there was a lot of show experience before and should have been weeded out.
> One of the short tailed dogs had a tight clamp. Avoided the judge , who was well aware and retried the dog a few times to give it a chance . When the dog went into motion tail unclamps - but when returning to the judge you can see lofting of hackles and at base of tail.


Point taken.


----------



## Jenny720

carmspack said:


> yes , but they weren't at Westminster representing some sort of an ideal for the breed.
> To get to this point there was a lot of show experience before and should have been weeded out.
> One of the short tailed dogs had a tight clamp. Avoided the judge , who was well aware and retried the dog a few times to give it a chance . When the dog went into motion tail unclamps - but when returning to the judge you can see lofting of hackles and at base of tail.


Point taken


----------



## dogfaeries

carmspack said:


> yes , but they weren't at Westminster representing some sort of an ideal for the breed.
> To get to this point there was a lot of show experience before and should have been weeded out.
> One of the short tailed dogs had a tight clamp. Avoided the judge , who was well aware and retried the dog a few times to give it a chance . When the dog went into motion tail unclamps - but when returning to the judge you can see lofting of hackles and at base of tail.



What breed? I don't want to wade through that whole group.


----------



## dogfaeries

I know the Buhund shown by the little girl fell apart.


----------



## carmspack

briard
entlebrucher
buhund


----------



## Blondi's Revenge

Is there anyone else with interest to see Rumor bred with a GSL? I know it'd be the combination of two different lines but it could provide vigor and a new direction


----------



## carmspack

not here . Rumor has better structure than the WGSL's.

She is closer to the standard .


----------



## wolfstraum

dogfaeries said:


> You need 15 points with 2 majors for your championship. Your majors must be under different judges. For example, my bitch Carly finished her championship with 19 points, and 3 majors, in limited showing. I never got to finish Sage. She died with 13 points, one 4 point major, and 4 major reserves, also in limited showing. So close!
> 
> For a Grand you need 25 points with 3 majors and defeat a champion of record at 3 of these shows. Your majors must be under different judges. Carly has 6 Grand Ch points, with champions defeated at 3 events. I've only shown her 3 weekends as a special. (She has 2 Best of Breeds and 2 Selects). I'm not interested in pursuing a Grand Championship though, it's just too expensive! I've just shown her for fun locally.


Thanks - I know the 15 points with majors, Lisa's one young dog got 2 5 point majors, one at the National Specialty, then a bunch of 1 and 2s just because it was hard to get enough entries to make more more points at shows within decent distance...I understand this part - it was the Grand I wasn't sure of.... My comment was because someone stated that only Best of Breed got points. 

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum

carmspack said:


> yes , but they weren't at Westminster representing some sort of an ideal for the breed.
> To get to this point there was a lot of show experience before and should have been weeded out.
> One of the short tailed dogs had a tight clamp. Avoided the judge , who was well aware and retried the dog a few times to give it a chance . When the dog went into motion tail unclamps - but when returning to the judge you can see lofting of hackles and at base of tail.


And you can be sure the judge sees these behaviors - whether they carry any weight?? Only they know!!! This is why it was so disheartening to see the hesitation and caution in the JUDGE'S behavior toward the GSD!! Her record and reputation did not mean anything to him compared to his experience with and the reputation of the breed!!! He approached her and ONLY HER with some caution. As we judge dogs by their body language, so can we judge the people around them!!!

Lee


----------



## wolfstraum

Blondi's Revenge said:


> Is there anyone else with interest to see Rumor bred with a GSL? I know it'd be the combination of two different lines but it could provide vigor and a new direction



This HAS been happening....many ASL breeders are doing German crosses - unfortunately without knowledge of WGSL pedigrees.....there are many poor temperaments in the WGSL as well, and the market for breeding females among the ASL breeders has given some of the SV breeders a new place to dump poor tempered females.....several years ago two young women from Germany who were brokers and experienced handlers showed up at a USCA club - at a Conformation Show - they had several females, all for sale, entered. One was so gun shy it flopped around like a fish on a hook and escaped the ring....I heard that one was sold to a ASL breeder....another breeder I know produced a female who ended up at a year rather angulated 
and also faulty in temperament - she also got sold for a BIG price to a ASL breeder - her sire was a VA dog and they were thrilled to get a "German" dog to breed....they already produced very timid dogs albeit with "sidegait"...

So considering Rumor is from a dam linebred on Dallas - where do they go with her???? Frankly, I disagree with Carmen here......there are still many WGSL with good temperament and decent structure - and  GASP - a few really nice WL males V rated in structure with better temperament....I would think this would (theoretically) go in the direction of making the breed more cohesive.....and acceptable to the ASL people to go to German dogs to lessen the extremes in structure and temperament that is the norm in the ASL


But hey - the majority of breeders in this country are BY/BY commercials - just go look at the monthly running ads in Dog World....breeders with no credentials at all on their dogs or themselves, but who have a constant supply of puppies to fill the desires of the American pet buying public. Some of the big kennels run full pages every month....(a couple of friends gave me tons of these while I was laid up a few years ago LOL LOL and so I read them) You will be surprised what you find.


Lee


----------



## Blondi's Revenge

wolfstraum said:


> This HAS been happening....many ASL breeders are doing German crosses - unfortunately without knowledge of WGSL pedigrees.....there are many poor temperaments in the WGSL as well, and the market for breeding females among the ASL breeders has given some of the SV breeders a new place to dump poor tempered females.....several years ago two young women from Germany who were brokers and experienced handlers showed up at a USCA club - at a Conformation Show - they had several females, all for sale, entered. One was so gun shy it flopped around like a fish on a hook and escaped the ring....I heard that one was sold to a ASL breeder....another breeder I know produced a female who ended up at a year rather angulated
> and also faulty in temperament - she also got sold for a BIG price to a ASL breeder - her sire was a VA dog and they were thrilled to get a "German" dog to breed....they already produced very timid dogs albeit with "sidegait"...
> 
> So considering Rumor is from a dam linebred on Dallas - where do they go with her???? Frankly, I disagree with Carmen here......there are still many WGSL with good temperament and decent structure - and  GASP - a few really nice WL males V rated in structure with better temperament....I would think this would (theoretically) go in the direction of making the breed more cohesive.....and acceptable to the ASL people to go to German dogs to lessen the extremes in structure and temperament that is the norm in the ASL
> 
> 
> But hey - the majority of breeders in this country are BY/BY commercials - just go look at the monthly running ads in Dog World....breeders with no credentials at all on their dogs or themselves, but who have a constant supply of puppies to fill the desires of the American pet buying public. Some of the big kennels run full pages every month....(a couple of friends gave me tons of these while I was laid up a few years ago LOL LOL and so I read them) You will be surprised what you find.
> 
> 
> Lee


I think she has a nice feature ahead of her, a lot of media took note of the way people were drawn to her. I would like to see her bred to Omen vom Radhaus someday, it would produce a kind of ceremonious offspring


----------



## SuperG

selzer said:


> All of that stuff is a given, who can enter the show, but the judging is based on how the dog's conformation matches the standard in the judge's opinion.
> 
> I do not think AKC conformation is a beauty contest either, nor easy to achieve. The only dog that gets points at the end of the day is BOB. If it is an all breed show, the dog can get more points in group if he wins, and for BOS. But, all the rest, no points. Not only do you have to earn a number of points, but you have to have a couple of majors -- shows with enough dogs entered to give you significant wins. If you enter a show that had enough dogs last year for a major, and this year they were entered and 3 didn't show, oops, no major for you, even though you did win.
> 
> For titles, you just have to show up and perform the tasks that you have practiced to a sufficient level of competency. Big Whupp! You do not have to defeat every dog there to get the points. Every dog there can get a title if they are all competent. Not so in conformation showing.


I guess you missed my point....

First, IMO...any dog which makes it to a certain tier/level of competition, regardless of the discipline is an accomplishment. For instance, the Marcato GSDs which made it to the Westminster show this year is a heck of a feat and worthy of respect..regardless of the metric(s) involved or whether or not I think this is the pinnacle of what defines the ultimate dog...others can debate that all they choose, I simply view the accomplishment as one which took an incredible amount of dedication, time, effort, resources, knowledge etc. to achieve this level of competitiveness. There are a multitude of canine competitions and trying to suggest one is more valid than the other is a bit of folly because both humans and the dogs greatly vary based on the human's desires as well as the dog's abilities and genetic make up. 

I think this comment of yours " Every dog there can get a title if they are all competent. Not so in conformation showing." defines the difference between a world sieger and a AKC format conformation champion. You pretend a world sieger's path to victory is a cakewalk regarding the titles beyond the conformation. But as you plainly stated in a muted fashion...the dog has to be competent in other arenas of displayed abilities. So, if a GSD is a hands down winner in conformation amongst it's peers but not "competent" in the other required disciplines...it's the end of the road for that GSD in it's quest to become a world sieger..it's just that simple. I believe it's just easier to accept that the competitions are different and not to be compared because they ARE different even if some of the requirements/standards may exist in both arenas of competition.

One last point regarding competition and once again, this is my personal preference regarding competition across the board. Even though standards exist, they are still prone to the subjectivity of the human. Most any competition which involves judges/judging has its trappings. I prefer a start and a finish line, a race against the clock, a distance measured etc. where there is no human judging/subjectivity involved. The sports I have participated in over the years such as alpine ski racing, water ski slalom, motocross etc all are objective, no human intervention by a judge determines a winner ( except in the rarest of instances )...this eliminates all the banter present in this thread...because whoever crosses the "finish line" first is the winner, end of story. So, in the dog world....a racing greyhound which wins a race is indisputable....a dog which wins an agility competition...a dog which wins a dock diving competition...etc., these are more objective even though judges are present but the metric is much less prone to human interpretation as the clock or measuring tape prevail as the determining factor.

Over the years I have heard the lament of many a handler/owner of conformation competitions. You know...." the judge doesn't like this or likes this" etc.... the list goes one. Yes, there is a standard but the standard is subject to the knowledge and biases of those who judge the competition. Sometimes it reminds me of figure skating competitions where the heavy favorite can fall or screw up horribly but yet still win...hence my preference for a "finish line". 

At the end of the day, any dog/handler team which excels at any particular discipline ( judged or measured objectively ) has my respect for the effort required to get to that point. But in my narrow point of view, the dog which is my lifelong loyal companion is the true champion.

SuperG


----------



## carmspack

"So considering Rumor is from a dam linebred on Dallas - where do they go with her???? Frankly, I disagree with Carmen here......there are still many WGSL with good temperament and decent structure - and  GASP "

I know where you are coming from and do appreciate what you are saying.

I wasn't talking about Rumor (or her linebred pedigree) , but her conformational type . Blondi suggested the wgsl.

I would hate to see the roach which is entrenched in the top wgsls introduced into a group which does not have this and hope it never does.

Working lines were not in the discussion as an option - and I do agree there are many that have impressively good (to standard) conformation , with solid temperament and drives which can be worked.

Although a good solution , as long as you don't go into some of the extremes in sport temperament , and look for that balanced dog (see discussion on civil aggression vs ipo) it will be one heck of an effort to have this option chosen. 
German show line breeders don't venture into use of the working lines in their own country . Have done their best to deepen the split .




Too much Dallas , another bottleneck.


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## carmspack

TRUE 
"the Marcato GSDs which made it to the Westminster show this year is a heck of a feat and worthy of respect..regardless of the metric(s) involved or whether or not I think this is the pinnacle of what defines the ultimate dog...others can debate that all they choose, I simply view the accomplishment as one which took an incredible amount of dedication, time, effort, resources, knowledge etc. to achieve this level of competitiveness. "

again congrats on your accomplishments


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Ive been reading this thread from the beging and I'm watching Rumor win breed and group tonight. Im am a pet owner its all Ill ever be but I love dogs and GSDs just make me go weak in the knees. I go to ASL shows cause I get to meet dogs. I have met so many sweet bouncy young dogs that Im smiling just thinking about it. The folks who do this stuff work hard and the show I go to is here in Ohio 4 days of all breed and I havent seen the extreme angulation and those horrible crippled dogs like the interet shows. Maybe its that its in the middle of the country but Ive seen more moderate dogs then extreme. I like ASL' and would like to meet in person some WLGSDs and West German Showline dogs. I have to agree with Selzer give the ASL folks a chance to talk about their accomplishments and bragg about their dogs b/c they deserve it.Also I would caution that what is reported on the internet does not generalize to actuality.Congratulations to Rumor her win is pretty darn impressive and for Jackie's(Mercato) as a bred by exhibitor that is something to be proud of.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> All of that stuff is a given, who can enter the show, but the judging is based on how the dog's conformation matches the standard in the judge's opinion.
> 
> I do not think AKC conformation is a beauty contest either, nor easy to achieve. The only dog that gets points at the end of the day is BOB. If it is an all breed show, the dog can get more points in group if he wins, and for BOS. But, all the rest, no points. Not only do you have to earn a number of points, but you have to have a couple of majors -- shows with enough dogs entered to give you significant wins. If you enter a show that had enough dogs last year for a major, and this year they were entered and 3 didn't show, oops, no major for you, even though you did win.
> 
> For titles, you just have to show up and perform the tasks that you have practiced to a sufficient level of competency. Big Whupp! You do not have to defeat every dog there to get the points. Every dog there can get a title if they are all competent. Not so in conformation showing.


It's true, the performance titles are criterion-referenced rather than norm-referenced.

I appreciate the hard work and chance that goes into trying to finish a dog in conformation, and I don't want to take anything away from people who do it and do it well - hats off to them, and in fact I'd love to try it someday. I also don't think your dismissive attitude toward the hard work people put into titling their dogs, particularly in a breed with such a big divide between the different line types, is at all helpful.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Bottlenecks happen in all the lines dont they? I know Lance of Fran Jo ( loved how he looked and he was very accomplished)at one time in the mid 90's was linked to over 70% of the ASL in some way. I think that happens with many breeds in many different lines.I never met Dallas personally but I saw him show.He won.


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## Jax08

I just can't fathom the kind of mind that dismisses others accomplishments when they have never even attempted to learn the event. I can't fathom the kind of mind that dismisses others accomplishments for any reason. Sad minds.


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## wolfstraum

Jax08 said:


> I just can't fathom the kind of mind that dismisses others accomplishments when they have never even attempted to learn the event. I can't fathom the kind of mind that dismisses others accomplishments for any reason. Sad minds.



The same sort of mind who makes judgements and give out opinions based on what they have heard, or bases a breeder 2nd hand info on one dog or on a bunch of photos with no personal experience or range of experience. Then constantly undermines that person.....it happens all over - here too.....believe me I hear about it!

I have shown conformation with a Dane 30 years ago, got two points LOL and got beat by worse dogs shown by professional handlers - who wanted the dog to show and told me I should have beat them! I have tons of friends in the AKC world (not GSD people) and attend a few big shows every year - maybe 4-6....have shown OB....watch the GSDs, walk around a huge show with a WL dog and talk to tons of spectators....

I agree that people need to think before talking! And people need to look back behind the source before believing


Lee


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## Jax08

hmmm...Lee...You have repeatedly made such posts at me. I have no idea what you are in such an uproar with me about but you can take it to a PM and I'll happily address it. And if it should not have to do with me directly, then save it for that person as I don't take responsibility for other peoples action nor do I think they would expect me to do so as it would be none of my business.


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## dogma13

Jax08 said:


> I just can't fathom the kind of mind that dismisses others accomplishments when they have never even attempted to learn the event. I can't fathom the kind of mind that dismisses others accomplishments for any reason. Sad minds.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## wolfstraum

No Jax - it is not specifically at you.....rather at the general "groupiness" exhibited by people who have 1 dog from a breeder and constantly push an agenda without real experience or knowledge, or see photos they like on a website.....etc etc etc Before I decide I do or do not like a dog or a line - I want to see for myself many dogs - I want to understand what the pros and cons are and see why breeders make decisions they make...I do not condemn a dog or a breeder based on someone else's agenda or their marketing.

Actually I agreed with you or did you miss that???? 



Lee


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## Jax08

mmmm.....interesting


----------



## Jenny720

wolfstraum said:


> And you can be sure the judge sees these behaviors - whether they carry any weight?? Only they know!!! This is why it was so disheartening to see the hesitation and caution in the JUDGE'S behavior toward the GSD!! Her record and reputation did not mean anything to him compared to his experience with and the reputation of the breed!!! He approached her and ONLY HER with some caution. As we judge dogs by their body language, so can we judge the people around them!!!
> 
> Lee


My first impression with the judge when he interacted with Rumor he has had a bad experience with german shepherds in the past but I realized this is just only my own thought of course and nothing else. when you mentioned in the above about the judges hesitation I had to re watch it and realized that is what I picked up on. you noticed that to huh.


----------



## dogfaeries

Typically in the ring a GSD will ignore the judge. I imagine it could be a bit unsettling if it's a breed you haven't had much experience with.


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## Jenny720

carmspack said:


> "So considering Rumor is from a dam linebred on Dallas - where do they go with her???? Frankly, I disagree with Carmen here......there are still many WGSL with good temperament and decent structure - and  GASP "
> 
> I know where you are coming from and do appreciate what you are saying.
> 
> I wasn't talking about Rumor (or her linebred pedigree) , but her conformational type . Blondi suggested the wgsl.
> 
> I would hate to see the roach which is entrenched in the top wgsls introduced into a group which does not have this and hope it never does.
> 
> Working lines were not in the discussion as an option - and I do agree there are many that have impressively good (to standard) conformation , with solid temperament and drives which can be worked.
> 
> Although a good solution , as long as you don't go into some of the extremes in sport temperament , and look for that balanced dog (see discussion on civil aggression vs ipo) it will be one heck of an effort to have this option chosen.
> German show line breeders don't venture into use of the working lines in their own country . Have done their best to deepen the split .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too much Dallas , another bottleneck.


It would be interesting to see the results of Rumor with a balanced non extreme working line.


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## dogfaeries

When you show a GSD in the breed ring, the judge has you bring the dog to them. They usually extend a hand to the dog, pet it's head and then go on to the next dog. I've seen dogs excused for shying away, and they should be excused.


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## dogfaeries

Jenny720 said:


> It would be interesting to see the results of Rumor with a balanced non extreme working line.



I guess Kent will figure it out.


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## Jenny720

dogfaeries said:


> Typically in the ring a GSD will ignore the judge. I imagine it could be a bit unsettling if it's a breed you haven't had much experience with.


I understand this. It could of been a respectful attempt and i can see that but it was a thought that did cross my mind and was forgotten until I heard it mentioned.


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## Jenny720

dogfaeries said:


> I guess Kent will figure it out.


Yes I will be watching


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## Jenny720

dogfaeries said:


> When you show a GSD in the breed ring, the judge has you bring the dog to them. They usually extend a hand to the dog, pet it's head and then go on to the next dog. I've seen dogs excused for shying away, and they should be excused.


Ah okay. Yes it is something our trainer said was expected and would practice that at class. I can see it a challenge for many gsds.


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## Jenny720

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> Ive been reading this thread from the beging and I'm watching Rumor win breed and group tonight. Im am a pet owner its all Ill ever be but I love dogs and GSDs just make me go weak in the knees. I go to ASL shows cause I get to meet dogs. I have met so many sweet bouncy young dogs that Im smiling just thinking about it. The folks who do this stuff work hard and the show I go to is here in Ohio 4 days of all breed and I havent seen the extreme angulation and those horrible crippled dogs like the interet shows. Maybe its that its in the middle of the country but Ive seen more moderate dogs then extreme. I like ASL' and would like to meet in person some WLGSDs and West German Showline dogs. I have to agree with Selzer give the ASL folks a chance to talk about their accomplishments and bragg about their dogs b/c they deserve it.Also I would caution that what is reported on the internet does not generalize to actuality.Congratulations to Rumor her win is pretty darn impressive and for Jackie's(Mercato) as a bred by exhibitor that is something to be proud of.


I'm not in the middle of the country and thought the same as you maybe its different and more extreme elsewhere:laugh: From what I experienced does not equate what I have read on the internet-not one nice thing about asl and is not where I would give the internet any merit but is disconcerting the information out there. Yes the best advise for people out their is to go to the different shows, meet the different lines. I like them all They all have all much to offer.


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## dogfaeries

I get irritated when new people come on here trying to research getting a dog, and they are automatically steered away from the dreaded ASL. I especially dislike it when people lump my line into "pet lines/ASL".


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## Nigel

Jenny720 said:


> Ah okay. Yes it is something our trainer said was expected and would practice that at class. I can see it a challenge for many gsds.


What would be considered a normal reaction to a stranger petting their head?


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## gsdsar

dogfaeries said:


> I get irritated when new people come on here trying to research getting a dog, and they are automatically steered away from the dreaded ASL. I especially dislike it when people lump my line into "pet lines/ASL".


I have been guilty of this. I think. At least until 2.5 years ago. That's when I met a herding instructor who titles and shows her ASL and then puts herding titles on hers and others dogs. I met a lot of her dogs. I was super impressed. Solid nerve, great temperament, biddable and gorgeous. 

I guess I just realized that there are good and bad in every line. Lord knows I have seen a lot of crud WL and WGSL as well as great ones. 

I do hate that we have such a division in our breed. And it annoys me when WL handlers say there dog must be muzzled at the vet, but then disparage a show dog who has to put up with strangers all up in their junk regularly without question. Dogs shows are not vacuums. They are crazy. 

I prefer WL. But I respect those that breed and compete on any venue. It's not easy.


----------



## Jenny720

Nigel said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah okay. Yes it is something our trainer said was expected and would practice that at class. I can see it a challenge for many gsds.
> 
> 
> 
> What would be considered a normal reaction to a stranger petting their head?
Click to expand...

Is that a trick question? A slight head movement would disqualify them.


----------



## Jenny720

dogfaeries said:


> I get irritated when new people come on here trying to research getting a dog, and they are automatically steered away from the dreaded ASL. I especially dislike it when people lump my line into "pet lines/ASL".


I don't blame you. If I went in this forums and new nothing about German shepherds I would get stay away from asl.


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## Nigel

Jenny720 said:


> Is that a trick question?


No, not at all. Just trying to gauge my own gsd's reponse.


----------



## WateryTart

dogfaeries said:


> I get irritated when new people come on here trying to research getting a dog, and they are automatically steered away from the dreaded ASL. I especially dislike it when people lump my line into "pet lines/ASL".


I don't think anyone on this thread is guilty of saying so (in fact, I'm positive no one on this thread said anything of the sort), but I definitely got an "ASL is not a real GSD" vibe when I first joined the forum and was very definite right off the bat about finding a good ASL puppy.

I have since come to really appreciate the individuals on the board who can offer balanced critiques of each line type.


----------



## dogfaeries

gsdsar said:


> I do hate that we have such a division in our breed. And it annoys me when WL handlers say there dog must be muzzled at the vet, but then disparage a show dog who has to put up with strangers all up in their junk regularly without question. Dogs shows are not vacuums. They are crazy.



Thank you  

Well, yes, show dogs have to put up with a lot of manhandling from the judges. Some aren't very gentle. At one show, a judge yanked Sage's mouth open so roughly that she cried out. Totally unnecessary. All this touching and groping from a stranger, while strange dogs are all around you. I've handed my dogs off to total strangers at a show to be taken back into the ring for Winners, when my own handler had to take another dog back in. Mine aren't nervy or spooky, they know how to behave in a ring, no matter who's on the end of that leash.


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

dogfaeries said:


> Thank you
> 
> Well, yes, show dogs have to put up with a lot of manhandling from the judges. Some aren't very gentle. At one show, a judge yanked Sage's mouth open so roughly that she cried out. Totally unnecessary. All this touching and groping from a stranger, while strange dogs are all around you. I've handed my dogs off to total strangers at a show to be taken back into the ring for Winners, when my own handler had to take another dog back in. Mine aren't nervy or spooky, they know how to behave in a ring, no matter who's on the end of that leash.


Ive held dogs for handlers /owners while they are getting other dogs ready for the ring or swirchig dogs etc. Its beyond busy around the rings and show dogs just take it all in and gow/ the flow.


----------



## dogfaeries

WateryTart said:


> I don't think anyone on this thread is guilty of saying so (in fact, I'm positive no one on this thread said anything of the sort), but I definitely got an "ASL is not a real GSD" vibe when I first joined the forum and was very definite right off the bat about finding a good ASL puppy.




I can't count the number of times I've seen someone new come on this forum, and say I'm looking for a puppy, how about this breeder, to be told oh those are ASL, you should look at *insert WL breeder close to the OP's location*. I get very tired of it.


----------



## Jenny720

I don't blame you


----------



## Jenny720

Jenny720 said:


> Nigel said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that a trick question?
> 
> 
> 
> No, not at all. Just trying to gauge my own gsd's reponse.[/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Oh sorry. My dog is not a show dog but a pet. If we are out and talking to a stranger he likes to smell someone first and lick their hand check them out and will be accepting of a pet on the head. If someone comes rushing at him with their hand extended he might shrink his head back and then go to smell them check them out and petting is good. He seems to need a minute to get comfortable and access the situation. He then might try to jump on them for more attention depending on the situation and person. If someone is all gooey he tries to jump on them right away and lick their face. If he was in a show and flinched his head back he would be disqualified.
Click to expand...


----------



## WateryTart

dogfaeries said:


> I can't count the number of times I've seen someone new come on this forum, and say I'm looking for a puppy, how about this breeder, to be told oh those are ASL, you should look at *insert WL breeder close to the OP's location*. I get very tired of it.


I'm more okay with it if it's just briefly suggested; not everyone comes in knowing about the different line types, and I'd personally rather learn and make an informed decision than make a decision I didn't realize was based on incomplete information. The OP can research or not as they choose. Suggesting and then leaving it alone unless asked for further info is different from pushing an agenda, and I think it's fine to do that (suggest). 

To be fair, people can only talk about what they know. Some of it is likely wanting to be helpful but only being able to speak to a line they're "in." I usually couch my recommendations with, "...and these are ASL breeders, so if you're looking for WL, this may not be the best resource, but I don't know any WL breeders around here - not to say they don't exist, but I don't know them or their dogs at all." But that's a lot of couching and not everyone has the inclination to do that. Trying to give the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## Jax08

I have seen very few people come on and ask for ASL's. I've seen them ask for working line or WGSL or describe a WGSL or WL. But I have not seen very many requests for ASL's when people have been asked for exactly what they are looking for.

Personally, I know one WGSL and one ASL breeder. Just one each personally. I would recommend either of them all day long if I were asked. There are a couple more WGSL breeders I've head of that have good reputations. But like WT said, neither of these lines are in my scope. 

If someone asks for a WL or WGSL and a ASL is recommended, why wouldn't someone point out what lines they are? I see the same with WL when someone asks about WGSL. Or I've recommended WL from breeders with dogs I know and the next response is "they don't breed often". I just think that people are taking some of these responses personally instead of as an effort to answer the persons research request.


----------



## WateryTart

Jax08 said:


> I have seen very few people come on and ask for ASL's. I've seen them ask for working line or WGSL or describe a WGSL or WL. But I have not seen very many requests for ASL's when people have been asked for exactly what they are looking for.


I think that's a great point. I see a lot fewer people asking for ASL. I always suggest a group of ASL breeders but that's with all that couching I mentioned. I am not personally invested in what they pick, but I will let them know the club exists and where to go to observe dogs bred locally and meet their breeders and owners, in case they care. But in my observation, it isn't really what they are asking for.

Also, if you think about it, a large percentage of people on the board are "in" working line. So simply by looking at the skew, you can probably infer that a lot of recommendations will be for WL breeders because that's what people know.


----------



## Jenny720

Jax08 said:


> I have seen very few people come on and ask for ASL's. I've seen them ask for working line or WGSL or describe a WGSL or WL. But I have not seen very many requests for ASL's when people have been asked for exactly what they are looking for.
> 
> Personally, I know one WGSL and one ASL breeder. Just one each personally. I would recommend either of them all day long if I were asked. There are a couple more WGSL breeders I've head of that have good reputations. But like WT said, neither of these lines are in my scope.
> 
> If someone asks for a WL or WGSL and a ASL is recommended, why wouldn't someone point out what lines they are? I see the same with WL when someone asks about WGSL. Or I've recommended WL from breeders with dogs I know and the next response is "they don't breed often". I just think that people are taking some of these responses personally instead of as an effort to answer the persons research request.


This not directed at you. It is not everybody on here but I have seen it many times. They will ask I'm thinking of a gsd what line would be right for me? It is usually a pet home. This forum made me search the Internet as what others had to say about asl. Don't get me wrong I like this forum I would not be on here but this forum is no fan club of asl.


----------



## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> This not directed at you. It is not everybody on here but I have seen it many times. They will ask I'm thinking of a gsd what line would be right for me? It is usually a pet home. This forum made me search the Internet as what others had to say about asl. Don't get me wrong I like this forum I would not be on here but this forum is no fan club of asl.



Again, I think you are taking this personally. The majority of the people on this forum own working line or mixed lines as pets. Some have WGSL and a small few have ASL's.

I can't recommend a line that I'm not familiar with and I don't think I'm the only one. I'm not a show line person. I don't have anything against them, just not my thing. So when people ask what line is right for them, I can only recommend working line as those are the dogs I live with. Actually, I try not to recommend any breeder publican anymore. To much grief attached to it.

Sure there are a few loud mouths, but the vast majority of members are not against any line. Don't let those people overshadow the rest.


----------



## WateryTart

Jax08 said:


> I can't recommend a line that I'm not familiar with and I don't think I'm the only one. I'm not a show line person. I don't have anything against them, just not my thing. So when people ask what line is right for them, I can only recommend working line as those are the dogs I live with.


Exactly, same for me but with show line. I mean, I know that Staatsmacht exists, but I know literally nothing about them other than that they're around. I can't in good conscience recommend them because I just don't have any real information.

ASL? Totally different picture. I will still stay away from saying anything about a specific breeder, but I can say good things about the breed club as a whole, talk about training, and recommend that someone open to an ASL puppy go and take a look and see who they like.


----------



## Jenny720

gsdsar said:


> dogfaeries said:
> 
> 
> 
> I get irritated when new people come on here trying to research getting a dog, and they are automatically steered away from the dreaded ASL. I especially dislike it when people lump my line into "pet lines/ASL".
> 
> 
> 
> I have been guilty of this. I think. At least until 2.5 years ago. That's when I met a herding instructor who titles and shows her ASL and then puts herding titles on hers and others dogs. I met a lot of her dogs. I was super impressed. Solid nerve, great temperament, biddable and gorgeous.
> 
> I guess I just realized that there are good and bad in every line. Lord knows I have seen a lot of crud WL and WGSL as well as great ones.
> 
> I do hate that we have such a division in our breed. And it annoys me when WL handlers say there dog must be muzzled at the vet, but then disparage a show dog who has to put up with strangers all up in their junk regularly without question. Dogs shows are not vacuums. They are crazy.
> 
> I prefer WL. But I respect those that breed and compete on any venue. It's not easy.
Click to expand...


I glad you say this as I don't understand the division. Which only weakens the breed as a whole but people don't see this. The different lines of gsds offer different things to the different interests of individuals. To me this is a strength.


----------



## Jenny720

Jax08 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This not directed at you. It is not everybody on here but I have seen it many times. They will ask I'm thinking of a gsd what line would be right for me? It is usually a pet home. This forum made me search the Internet as what others had to say about asl. Don't get me wrong I like this forum I would not be on here but this forum is no fan club of asl.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I think you are taking this personally. The majority of the people on this forum own working line or mixed lines as pets. Some have WGSL and a small few have ASL's.
> 
> I can't recommend a line that I'm not familiar with and I don't think I'm the only one. I'm not a show line person. I don't have anything against them, just not my thing. So when people ask what line is right for them, I can only recommend working line as those are the dogs I live with. Actually, I try not to recommend any breeder publican anymore. To much grief attached to it.
> 
> Sure there are a few loud mouths, but the vast majority of members are not against any line. Don't let those people overshadow the rest.
Click to expand...

I do not let those people overshadow the rest or I would not be on here. Again I'm not directing this at you or everyone and I even recall you recommending a asl breeder. I understand that people talk about line they know but when people ask what line is best it is usually a working line or wgsl being mentioned. I am just stating there is a shadow on the forum and on the Internet about asl. I do not think most people get defensive for no reason.


----------



## carmspack

just got around to watching Best in Show -- hmm
Dr Richard Meen, a Toronto psychiatrist . Have seen him judge many times .
Lived close to his neighbourhood - passed his house many times .
He and his partner Dr John Reeve-Newson (vet) who started the Emergency clinics bred some bred some awesome Borzoi under Kishniga TBF: Kishniga's Desert Song 

this one being almost unbeatable .

now both gentlemen have judged at Westminster , albeit a decade or more apart.

I did compete in obedience and there was a young lady affiliated with a near-by Arab horse breeding stable , that had a Borzoi -- many high in trials --- the only borzoi to get a UD title. She used positive motivational training only.
Mmmm , memory lane -- again.

Looking at the tape --- Dr Meen boldly steps up to each of the group winners and shakes their hand. The GSD is the first in the line-up. There is no hesitation whatsoever .

Later when looking the dogs over to make his choice he does pause in front of the GSD -- I think he is checking something that might be the basis of his decision.

I think he is looking at the GSDs feet and pasterns.
You can see the toes somewhat spread -- also the pasterns were a little soft -- I said little -- when looking at her going around. 
This judge is a stickler for symmetry and for fronts .

maybe that is it?


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## Jax08

Jenny720 said:


> Again I'm not directing this at you


I never took it as such. I can only speak for me thus my response.


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## Jenny720

carmspack said:


> just got around to watching Best in Show -- hmm
> Dr Richard Meen, a Toronto psychiatrist . Have seen him judge many times .
> Lived close to his neighbourhood - passed his house many times .
> He and his partner Dr John Reeve-Newson (vet) who started the Emergency clinics bred some bred some awesome Borzoi under Kishniga TBF: Kishniga's Desert Song
> 
> this one being almost unbeatable .
> 
> now both gentlemen have judged at Westminster , albeit a decade or more apart.
> 
> I did compete in obedience and there was a young lady affiliated with a near-by Arab horse breeding stable , that had a Borzoi -- many high in trials --- the only borzoi to get a UD title. She used positive motivational training only.
> Mmmm , memory lane -- again.
> 
> Looking at the tape --- Dr Meen boldly steps up to each of the group winners and shakes their hand. The GSD is the first in the line-up. There is no hesitation whatsoever .
> 
> Later when looking the dogs over to make his choice he does pause in front of the GSD -- I think he is checking something that might be the basis of his decision.
> 
> I think he is looking at the GSDs feet and pasterns.
> You can see the toes somewhat spread -- also the pasterns were a little soft -- I said little -- when looking at her going around.
> This judge is a stickler for symmetry and for fronts .
> 
> maybe that is it?


It could very well be. The difference of approach among the other breeds is what threw me off.


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## Nigel

Jenny720 said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh sorry. My dog is not a show dog but a pet. If we are out and talking to a stranger he likes to smell someone first and lick their hand check them out and will be accepting of a pet on the head. If someone comes rushing at him with their hand extended he might shrink his head back and then go to smell them check them out and petting is good. He seems to need a minute to get comfortable and access the situation. He then might try to jump on them for more attention depending on the situation and person. If someone is all gooey he tries to jump on them right away and lick their face. If he was in a show and flinched his head back he would be disqualified.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, mine never want to get that friendly. All mine want to sniff test the hand and then it's ok to be petted. Sometimes my girl Zoey will push their hand down with her chin first, then the smell test.
Click to expand...


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## Jenny720

Nigel said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh sorry. My dog is not a show dog but a pet. If we are out and talking to a stranger he likes to smell someone first and lick their hand check them out and will be accepting of a pet on the head. If someone comes rushing at him with their hand extended he might shrink his head back and then go to smell them check them out and petting is good. He seems to need a minute to get comfortable and access the situation. He then might try to jump on them for more attention depending on the situation and person. If someone is all gooey he tries to jump on them right away and lick their face. If he was in a show and flinched his head back he would be disqualified.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, mine never want to get that friendly. All mine want to sniff test the hand and then it's ok to be petted. Sometimes my girl Zoey will push their hand down with her chin first, then the smell test.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah they seem to want to check people out first then give the okay on their terms . If they gush so does he. At home he is a bit of a loon still have to leash him at first when someone walks in till he relaxes he likes to jump on people and say hi even without an invite. He is 16 months old still much of a pup at heart and still has to be babysat in the jumping up regard. He is good watch dog at the same time. My last shepherd would hi and pay no attention unless they were going to throw a ball for him:smile:
Click to expand...


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## Blondi's Revenge

So what's next for her?


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## carmspack

the dog's image will probably be used for endorsements -- "dog-cereal" (kibble),
other products , maybe grooming aides,
magazine covers 

she is a friendly looking , GSD in the style
and colour that people are familiar with


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## dogfaeries

Blondi's Revenge said:


> So what's next for her?


According to Kent, she'll go back to being the family dog. 
Here's an interview that Kent did about Rumor. I've hesitated to post it, because instead of enjoying the video, I can see you guys just wanting to pick it apart.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Rumor is beautiful. I think being the family dog is a pretty important one.


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## Mary Beth

Dogfaeries - thanks for posting the video. I so wanted to see more of her and know more about her. She is gorgeous :wub:


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## Whiteshepherds

dogfaeries said:


> Here's an interview that Kent did about Rumor.


Thanks for posting the video.


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## carmspack

pasterns and feet ! video shows close ups a few times - pasterns and feet.

"Looking at the tape --- Dr Meen boldly steps up to each of the group winners and shakes their hand. The GSD is the first in the line-up. There is no hesitation whatsoever .

Later when looking the dogs over to make his choice he does pause in front of the GSD -- I think he is checking something that might be the basis of his decision.

I think he is looking at the GSDs feet and pasterns.
You can see the toes somewhat spread -- also the pasterns were a little soft -- I said little -- when looking at her going around. 
This judge is a stickler for symmetry and for fronts "

would have been nice to have seen the dog without a long line on ,  just free and natural 

the other dogs in the kennels were no where near her type


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## MayzieGSD

dogfaeries said:


> According to Kent, she'll go back to being the family dog.
> Here's an interview that Kent did about Rumor.


Isn't he going to breed her?


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## dogfaeries

MayzieGSD said:


> Isn't he going to breed her?



I imagine he will.


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## SuperG

dogfaeries said:


> According to Kent, she'll go back to being the family dog.
> Here's an interview that Kent did about Rumor. I've hesitated to post it, because instead of enjoying the video, I can see you guys just wanting to pick it apart.



I watched the video but I didn't get any sound.....overall not bad but I do have a few critiques....a bit too long...not thick enough...and a bit off on the color...could be deeper in color. For the life of me, I have no idea why he lets that dog and kid trample all over an otherwise very nice lawn.


SuperG


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## gsdheeler

Won't hear me pickin it apart, Rumor is a beauty, my youngster shares a grandmother with her and my 6 yr old bitch is from Kent 1/2 ASL 1/2 German.


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## dogfaeries

I thought about breeding Sage to Rumor's sire at one time. Since I lost Sage so young, I wish we'd done it!


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## Jax08

SuperG said:


> I watched the video but I didn't get any sound.....overall not bad but I do have a few critiques....a bit too long...not thick enough...and a bit off on the color...could be deeper in color. For the life of me, I have no idea why he lets that dog and kid trample all over an otherwise very nice lawn.
> 
> 
> SuperG


You're just a Wisconsin Grass Hater. Nobody can have a decent discussion without some hater showing up. Why don't you just stick to your Minnesota Snow?


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## WIBackpacker

gsdheeler said:


> Won't hear me pickin it apart, Rumor is a beauty, my youngster shares a grandmother with her and my 6 yr old bitch is from Kent 1/2 ASL 1/2 German.


Which grandmother? Karizma's Liberia Von Loar is a full sibling to my 6 year old's sire.


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## SuperG

Jax08 said:


> You're just a Wisconsin Grass Hater. Nobody can have a decent discussion without some hater showing up. Why don't you just stick to your Minnesota Snow?



LOLOLOL....I actually patrol the MN/WI border to make certain that type of lawn grass stays on their side of the river.......

SuperGrass


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## gsdheeler

Yup, Karizma Liberia Von Loar, my guy's sire is Rocky, Kent handled him at the National. Was kinda thinkin about Kent or Liz taking him when he's old enough /filled out, but for right now he's having fun doing agility.


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## WIBackpacker

gsdheeler said:


> Yup, Karizma Liberia Von Loar, my guy's sire is Rocky, Kent handled him at the National. Was kinda thinkin about Kent or Liz taking him when he's old enough /filled out, but for right now he's having fun doing agility.



Neat.


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## gsdheeler

dogfaeries said:


> I thought about breeding Sage to Rumor's sire at one time. Since I lost Sage so young, I wish we'd done it!


I really like Rumor's sire , his sire is on of my favs too Chesnut Hills Apollo.


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## dogfaeries

gsdheeler said:


> I really like Rumor's sire , his sire is on of my favs too Chesnut Hills Apollo.



Sage went Best Opposite to Ike one time, and I referred to him as her boyfriend all weekend.  Good grief, I miss showing!!!


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## gsdheeler

My boy Riot tried to woo Rumor at a show in Sept. he was about 15 months old, all skinny leggs no chest at all, you know funny looking young male, he was doing everything he could think of to get her to look at him, think PeeWee Herman and a super model. It was too funny.


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## gsdheeler

dogfaeries said:


> Sage went Best Opposite to Ike one time, and I referred to him as her boyfriend all weekend.  Good grief, I miss showing!!!


We've got 4 spec shows middle of next month, and early April 3 shows and a Futurity... I'm not putting him in, legs are better, but he's still got no chest to speak of. Oh well I know of people who never take their males out till they are fully mature, I did have him out in the puppy classes last year, got BP under Dan Smith.  I'd like to get him out this fall.


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## dogfaeries

gsdheeler said:


> We've got 4 spec shows middle of next month, and early April 3 shows and a Futurity... I'm not putting him in, legs are better, but he's still got no chest to speak of. Oh well I know of people who never take their males out till they are fully mature, I did have him out in the puppy classes last year, got BP under Dan Smith.  I'd like to get him out this fall.



Yeah, no sense wasting money showing an immature boy. You have plenty of time to waste money later, LOL. We kept saying we wouldn't show Russell till he was 3, but I knew by the time he was 2 that I wasn't going to show him. He turns 3 next week, and is neutered. Bad pasterns, bad feet and too much rear. The only one in the litter like that. Oh well. Great temperament and energy makes a fabulous pet. 

It took Carly a while to mature. All legs, no chest. One day, boom! Finished easily once that happened.


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## gsdheeler

dogfaeries said:


> Yeah, no sense wasting money showing an immature boy. You have plenty of time to waste money later, LOL. We kept saying we wouldn't show Russell till he was 3, but I knew by the time he was 2 that I wasn't going to show him. He turns 3 next week, and is neutered. Bad pasterns, bad feet and too much rear. The only one in the litter like that. Oh well. Great temperament and energy makes a fabulous pet.
> 
> It took Carly a while to mature. All legs, no chest. One day, boom! Finished easily once that happened.


For the time being I'm training agility with him, he's a blast to run, not ready to trial yet, I need a knee replacement, once that's done I think we do just fine,.


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## dogfaeries

gsdheeler said:


> For the time being I'm training agility with him, he's a blast to run, not ready to trial yet, I need a knee replacement, once that's done I think we do just fine,.


Sounds good! I have a friend teaching a Rally Novice class, and she wants me to bring Russell. Oh dear! 90 lbs of bouncy dog, where neither one of us knows what we're doing. Seriously, the dog has springs on his enormous feet.


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## Jenny720

Enjoyed video thanks!!!


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## Xeph

Her color needs to be deeper? Why? Not everything has to be ludicrously red (and she's pretty deeply pigmented to begin with). Nothing wrong with a standard black and tan.


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## Jax08

Xeph said:


> Her color needs to be deeper? Why? Not everything has to be ludicrously red (and she's pretty deeply pigmented to begin with). Nothing wrong with a standard black and tan.


:rofl: He was being a smartass and talking about the grass! Read his post again.


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## SuperG

Xeph said:


> Her color needs to be deeper? Why? Not everything has to be ludicrously red (and she's pretty deeply pigmented to begin with). Nothing wrong with a standard black and tan.


Jax has me dead to rights regarding my shenanigans....I just thought it was time to add some levity to the thread as varying opinions were starting to escalate.......I guess I am the forum member that wears the three pointed hat with jingle bells at times..

As far as my ability to judge any dog at a conformation show...most all the ones which are my favorites rarely win.....shows you what I know about conformation.

Keep up the good work with your breeding program, so we continue to see you at Westminster.

SuperG


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## Jax08

SuperG said:


> Jax has me dead to rights regarding my shenanigans....


Only because I almost did the same thing. Your critique was much more in depth than mine though.


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## Xeph

Well then, my bad 

I have heard people say that about her quite seriously o.o

Like, guys....guys. The only way she could be redder is if you set her on fire.

My apologies lol


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

dogfaeries said:


> Sounds good! I have a friend teaching a Rally Novice class, and she wants me to bring Russell. Oh dear! 90 lbs of bouncy dog, where neither one of us knows what we're doing. Seriously, the dog has springs on his enormous feet.


I have a picture of that:laugh::laugh:!


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## dogfaeries

Xeph said:


> Like, guys....guys. The only way she could be redder is if you set her on fire.




LOL, Having seen her in person, I can say isn't that the truth!


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## carmspack

where did this red come from in the 
American lines ?


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## wolfstraum

I looked through the entries for my friends Viszlas and some other breeds - there did not seem to be many entries for most of the breeds other than the BOB class???? And those were all Champion dogs.............I am a bit confused as it USED to be that ONLY Champion dogs were entered in this show from what I remember, but now a few breeds here and there had class dogs - Open or Bred by - but no LISTING of entries.........so those breeds had only 1 dog entered in this class?????? who then got to go in the Breed class?????? Does not make sense to me....like just entering a horse race you know you will lose just to say you had a horse in the race?? LOL Used to happen in the Kentucky Derby all the time - but sometimes a longshot WOULD win! Like Cannonero II who was a 100 to 1 I think!


Lee


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## Xeph

I entered because it's great PR for the breed.


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## Xeph

> I am a bit confused as it USED to be that ONLY Champion dogs were entered in this show from what I remember


The show was originally for all dogs (class animals and specials). But as it grew, space diminished dramatically, and so only champions were allowed to enter.

The show is now held at the piers while groups are held at MSG. Because of this, class dogs are now allowed to enter again, BUT they must have won at least one major before they can enter. So you still have to qualify to go.

The winners of winners dog and winners bitch always go on to compete for breed. That's how the AKC system works. Doesn't matter if you know you're gonna lose...you fight. There were some BIG upsets in a few breeds this year, including Great Pyrs. A junior handler friend of mine won an unexpected BOB with her young male.

They looked wonderful together <3


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## WateryTart

Xeph said:


> Well then, my bad
> 
> I have heard people say that about her quite seriously o.o
> 
> *Like, guys....guys. The only way she could be redder is if you set her on fire.*
> 
> My apologies lol


I just snorted. And it's so true. I've seen her in person.


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## wolfstraum

I do understand the point system, I go to several shows a year with my friend who has Viszlas....also had a friend who passed away whose wife bred and showed small Beagles and went to Westminster quite often....

the lady with Viszlas started off in Springers and took a Sweepstakes(?) or maybe WB with a young female from her first litter at a National Specialty show...don't remember what it was - but remember her telling me what an upset win it was...

Lee


----------



## dogfaeries

Even in a regular show, it's pretty cool to go Best of Breed from the classes, over specials. And sometimes it causes a big stir!


----------



## Xeph

There was a foreign judge (Ireland) that judged Aussies and a couple other breeds. He withheld on a Bloodhound (was right to do it)! I LOVE the upsets!


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## LaRen616

Jackie, I just wanted to let you know that I read everything on your website and I have to say that you seem absolutely wonderful. I love your willingness to work with people by trying to keep your puppy price reasonable and affordable and I love that you are so eager to work with and help Junior handlers. We need more breeders and people like you in the world.


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## Xeph

Danke  I've worked really hard to get here.

Every puppy from my first litter went to a person new to showing. Puppies from my second litter went to newbies as well as people experienced in showing. I actually had a repeat buyer for my second litter! That felt pretty great.

We're going down south in a couple of months for the futurity, and I will have 11 dogs with me. Two showing in specialties, 9 showing at the fut/mat.

INSANITY


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## Blondi's Revenge

dogfaeries said:


> According to Kent, she'll go back to being the family dog.
> Here's an interview that Kent did about Rumor. I've hesitated to post it, because instead of enjoying the video, I can see you guys just wanting to pick it apart.


Can't figure out if this guy looks like Bryan Cranston or Nick Offerman


----------



## Xeph

Bryan Offerman LOL


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## Jenny720

My daughter loves this dog rumor. She watches this video on here and always playing the song "rumor has it" by adele-subtle huh:crazy:


----------



## dogfaeries

Xeph said:


> Bryan Offerman LOL



Yes, LOL!


----------

