# Size of SAR dogs?



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I've always wondered if smaller dogs would be better suited for SAR situations like in Haiti - where they could maneuver the rubble better and get into more places than a larger dog.

Are there small (as in Crested sized) SAR dogs?


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I've certainly seen/heard of Aussies and border collies being SAR dogs, don't see why a smaller dog couldn't. I think a JRT would be perfect for searching through earthquake rubble.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I've wondered that myself. The smallest dog I've ever seen personally doing SAR was a very small Aussie (like 20lbs). She was an HRD dog. 

Does the Mighty Mite forum have any members with working SAR dogs?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I have heard of small terriers like Jack Russells being used for SAR. 

Here is an American Hairless Terrier SAR dog:
http://www.ahts.ca/scooby.htm

AHTs are a hairless version of the Rat Terrier. I was interested in doing SAR or detection work with my Rat Terrier... He was very agile and good at scenting but then he was diagnosed with hip dysplasia. I can see how they would be good for this type of work due to their agility and balance.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I would be worried about a hairless dog- they don't have the protection that a coated dog has and I'd be concerned about the dog getting scraped up, especially in urban rescue.

But then again I am NOT a SAR person but it makes sense to me.


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## FuryanGoddess (Dec 26, 2009)

On another note, there was another earthquake today in Haiti. It's a 4.3 or something close to that.







Poor people!


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## Minnieski (Jan 27, 2009)

In our local SAR group there is an area search dog that can't be more than 15 pounds. He was a rescue and he's awesome (crazy energy put to use!).


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

My 11 inch, 18 lb beagle has been taking tracking lessons for months, and is a natural. She is (most likely) starting too late for SAR. But she has a killer work ethic and worked multiple surfaces her first time out. 

Beagles have that nose after all...









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHVoE_V0G4o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xhHZS2X4tc

(Someone -- I think it was Nancy -- posted for me additional links to videos of a woman in San Diego who has been doing SAR with beagles for years.) 

Eleven inch beagles would a great choice because they're small and don't weigh much, but still sturdy like their bigger 13 inch counterparts. Even appropriately sized 13" beagles shouldn't weigh more than about 25 lbs.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Agility is very important. High drive and rock solid nerves are the most important traits.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have struggled with that one myself. I can see pros and cons to working a small RUGGED dog....


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Nancy - what would be the cons?

I see lots of Pros:

Easy to transport
Able to maneuver in small places
Totally NOT intimidating to those being rescued
More agile


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomMy 11 inch, 18 lb beagle has been taking tracking lessons for months, and is a natural.


I'm thinking more about the types of situations like in Haiti - where there is tons of rubble for dogs to move around in.

A small dog would have the advantage of being able to fit in smaller places - to get further into the rubble than a large dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The challenge to me would be the temperament of many of the small dogs, particularly terriers and dog aggression, as well as proclivity towards going for vermin. Also you now have a coat to strip because trimming makes it soft. For beagles - I don't want to mess with a food driven dog, which is what most of them are. That hairless thing........well...........I don't think so. If it IS a terrier, AND it is bred for hunting, well terriers have the "kill vermin" embedded in their genetics.....

For size - I guess a small terrier could navigate 80-160 acres fine and get over and under obstacles. I can't really address for climbing all over rubble but figure many of the terriers were worked in rugged rocky terrain...........For usefullnes of the dogs running around under rubble piles - I just can't answer because I don't do disaster 

I think it would be a matter of saying is it "worth it" to adjust training methods to suit these dogs vs. using tried and true methods wtih tried and true breeds of dogs? 

Most [not all] folks really serious about doing SAR work don't have a lot of time to waste trying to make something work for a dog..............if it isn't going to work, you wash it and get another one........


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## dog27 (Apr 8, 2007)

I don't train on rubble piles, but I'm not so sure that a small dog getting further into the rubble would be an advantage. Disaster dogs are trained to locate where human scent is coming out from a pile and then they stay there and bark to alert the handler. If a small dog were to make its way closer to the source of the scent underneath the rubble, its barks may not be heard. And if it gets trapped underneath the rubble it may be impossible to get it out.


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## dog27 (Apr 8, 2007)

That was me.



> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom(Someone -- I think it was Nancy -- posted for me additional links to videos of a woman in San Diego who has been doing SAR with beagles for years.)


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

SAR is not that much about the scent ability of the dog as many people think. Almost all dogs, with the exception of, maybe, sight hounds, have a super developed scent ability compared to any human, you really don't need to pick a breed for SAR because of its nose. I'm always asked why more hunting breeds are not used in SAR and the reasons has much to do with why smaller breeds are not more used in SAR.

The problem with smaller dogs is most of them are hunting breeds, and many of them are terriers, but most of those dogs, like terriers and beagles, were developed to work on their own. They follow the scent while the hunter is behind on horseback or kill the vermin without any help of their human. They hunt on their own , but they do not collaborate. They don't really have what you'd call a "handler".

In SAR you need the nose of the dog, but you need one willing to be a partner with the searcher, one willing to be leaded without losing drive, but you, as a handler, can guide and trust that will follow omands, won't get lost and will search where YOU want to be searched. Here is where most shepherds and retrievers come in action.

Yes, there are many advantages of smaller dogs, but the temperament factor is usually bigger. Many handlers look for smaller dogs between proved breeds or groups of breeds, like Border collies, ACDs, Malinois, field retrievers and spaniels, etc.

Other small breeds are lap dogs and their health may be a problem for SAR dog, like skin and respiratory problems. Also consider that the smaller the dog the quicker they dehydrate in the heat and the quicker they freeze in the cold. A dog that covers a meter in 5 jumps will tire faster than a dog that cover the same distance in one leap and in rubble work you need them to be able to go in confinated spaces, but also to jump over a collapsed roof, get to a second story through a broken stair, etc.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Catu, that is a very insightful and perceptive response.


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## Lenny (Jul 25, 2005)

I saw on a tv show, "Dogs with jobs" I think, a lady had a Dachshund as a SAR dog. She was on a team somewhere. I can't remember where. 
I just can't imagine having a dog with a stride that short covering ground on a wilderness search.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote:


In SAR you need the nose of the dog, but you need one willing to be a partner with the searcher, one willing to be leaded without losing drive, but you, as a handler, can guide and trust that will follow omands, won't get lost and will search where YOU want to be searched. Here is where most shepherds and retrievers come in action.


> Quote:


The main thing is DRIVE. We in law enforcement and military use retrieve/hunt drive. Nothing to do with being a partner,it has to do with the dog have insatiable drive for the reward and be willing to work nonstop for it. It is the training method. I also use a lot of english springer spaniels and cockers from the UK for bomb work as do a large portion of the europeans and canadians. They are high drive, small,agile and have amazing scenting ability. Smaller breeds do not dehydrate easier. I work dogs here on check points and in ships in 100 degrees and 100% humidity. My little spaniels and cockers have no problem. A smaller dog negotiates rubble much easier,regardless of breed. We find them more useful in narc and bomb searches as well because they search vehicles,trucks and ships easier. I work all breeds and all things being equal,it is hard to be a little lab,spaniel or mal for tight spaces. Just a fact











> Quote: Other small breeds are lap dogs and their health may be a problem for SAR dog, like skin and respiratory problems. Also consider that the smaller the dog the quicker


totally untrue. Again the Brits,canadians,isarelis etc have used the spaniels and cockers for many many years because of their high drive and scenting ability. they also do not have the frequency of hip trouble that the GSDs have.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Renee, if you read my post, you'll see that I put spaniels between the "proven breeds" for SAR because I do know they are extensively used. I've met some very good springer spaniels and cockers (at least English cockers) out there.

To me a lap dog is something much smaller and delicate, like a Poodle toy, a Yorkshire or a Miniature pinscher.

I can't speak of bomb detection, because I've never trained that, but in SAR, with the standards we work, to be certificated the dog has to find a victim that is about 100 meters away of the point where the handler is allowed to enter, sometimes out of sight. Only after the dog has pointed the first victim the handler is allowed to follow the dog to keep searching the other victims. You need a lot of drive (autonomy come in hand with drives) but you also need to be able to trust your dog enough to know that he will search in the designated area and not to take a trip to the country.


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## dog27 (Apr 8, 2007)

Here is an interesting powerpoint presentation from a FEMA training course on disaster dog selection and screening:

http://www.disasterdog.org/manual/2008/Unit%201_Selection%20and%20Screening_06.ppt

Drive and nerve strength are their top criteria for selection. All it says about breed selection is that working breeds are statistically more successful, and point out 5 breeds in particular (Labs, GSDs, Goldens, BCs, Mals). I don't think this is meant to rule out other working breeds though.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: You need a lot of drive (autonomy come in hand with drives) but you also need to be able to trust your dog enough to know that he will search in the designated area and not to take a trip to the country.


Directionals are training. I trust my dogs at great distances offleash because the dog has what we call directionals. I train my bomb dogs that way as well,the way the Brits do for route clearances. We also do large area searches with patrol dogs offleash. Working a great distance away offleash is something a lot of us do. It is not a breed thing,but a training thing









I do not let my dog out of my sight. that is a good way to loose a dog. Few of us do that. If I would have done that searching storm debris after hurricanes,I would have lost my dog in some very nasty debris that we were sinking waste deep into


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Renee, you have probably seen ALL kinds of dogs coming through your seminars and all kinds of dogs in detection work. 

I think most people, once they are really into SAR are not about proving a certain breed can do the job or not but about finding a dog with the highest probability of success and one that will fit into established training methods. The dog is just a tool.

I know you have a fondness for ESS [working stock from England, not the USA] are there other breeds you have seen that consistenly can produce the desired characteristics, particualarly for small dogs?

I have pretty much decided to stick with a medium sized pointy eared dog; if I get too old or too weak to deal with a GSD, then I need to be sitting at IC manning the radio or working maps or even making coffee.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

> Quote: I have pretty much decided to stick with a medium sized pointy eared dog; if I get too old or too weak to deal with a GSD, then I need to be sitting at IC manning the radio or working maps or even making coffee.


Well, I just imported a GSD from slovakia and have a new litter of sable pointy earred dogs so I still like them









I have seen some rocking Border collies but,but it depends on the bloodline. Working stock preferably of english lines. I also use English working cockers. Small field trial bred Goldens and Labs are also hard to beat. going to have to be a gun dog breed to get that retrieve drive. also, small mals and dutchies


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Renee, tell me about the working cockers from England. I like the size and the coat looks like it would be ok in brush. Are there any stateside?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: LennyI saw on a tv show, "Dogs with jobs" I think, a lady had a Dachshund as a SAR dog. She was on a team somewhere. I can't remember where.
> I just can't imagine having a dog with a stride that short covering ground on a wilderness search.


I can't believe that I missed this. A mountain team near us had a dachshund for basically one job......clearing rhodendron thickets. Impermiable to man and beast alike but somehow althzheimers folks have managed..................................but I don't know how good the dog was; never saw it work.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Yes, I know some breeders whose stock is from the UK. I have 3. I am currently training a young female strictly for debris and collapsed structure. She sails over obstacles and you can carry her under your arm







The bad news about the cockers and springers is that they will not tolerate a heavy hand. This is why police and military here have a problem embracing them. However, you do not need a heavy hand with these dogs. I cannot remember the last time I even had a collar on one. I work them offleash in a harness. They are easy to give direction to









Forgot. The best thing to do is buy one that already has some field trial training. Will work offleash and has the directionals on it. Add odor and go


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Years ago before I started SAR we had an ESS and we only knew about Koelher methods. A GSD would put up with it. A terrier would not care. But she would come up the line in a heartbeat. It turned me off of spaniels. I do have to once in awhile correct my GSD.

But if you look at what a spaniel was bred to do it seems like a perfect fit [assuming working stock]. THIS has really got me thinking. I have seen videos of a working ESS in England and it is pretty impressive. A working cocker would be a great size for hr work. Well, Grim is 6.5 and I want to meet some personal goals before I get another dog, but a young one already started......yeah......


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

They are not terribly expensive either,with quite a bit of training in them. Not prohibitive even with a JH title. something to ponder


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I know they are not exactly "small", but smaller than a GSD. Has anyone seen Kelpies doing SAR? For what I've read they have all you need for the work and also a good endurance for warmer climates. This is a breed I'd like to know more about.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I actually talked with some folks using them. The ones I saw was nice but I had some other kelpie folks tell me that they are quite stubborn and may not be the most biddable dogs to work with. I gather only a small handful of folks.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

I wonder how a Swedish Vallhund would be as a SAR dog? They're relatively small, but very sturdy, fast & agile, as a herding dog should be. They're also intelligent & highly trainable. (Think GSD-caliber brain in a low-rider body.)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly don't know. Of course it is not a common breed though the physique does not look particularly agile or like the dog could cover large areas of forest with lots of deadfall. But looks can be decieving.

It says they are of spitz lineage and I have not seen any spitz type dogs doing SAR in the states.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

jocoyn said:


> Honestly don't know. Of course it is not a common breed though the physique does not look particularly agile or like the dog could cover large areas of forest with lots of deadfall. But looks can be decieving.
> 
> It says they are of spitz lineage and I have not seen any spitz type dogs doing SAR in the states.


I've seen a couple doing agility. They look like they're levitating, they fly so high relative to their size. I wouldn't have imagined a dwarf breed to be so agile, either. I definitely can't imagine a Corgi doing what they do.

More my style in a smaller dog: English Shepherd. Gunner is 52 lbs, which makes him one of the bigger specimens of his breed. He's VERY agile (& flexible-- can squiggle himself into the most inaccessible-looking places), determined, tough, biddable, and has an incredible nose-- in spite of my repeatedly dropping things on it. :crazy: (The yogurt wasn't so bad; he gave me a dirty look & licked it off. The shoe was a little worse; he gave me a baleful stare.... and ate the shoe the next day. Only thing he's ever chewed illegally.) 

As for drive.... Doesn't quit. Will stand for hours at a "find" until I get it for him (if he can't get it himself) or tell him to leave it. "Out of sight, out of mind" doesn't work well around here. He's not obsessive to the point where I can't call him off, though. (The cat & the potato chip bag are OFF LIMITS.) I was so proud of him the other day when he found a toy I had hidden in another room under a blanket! He's very focused. He's not dog reactive; he gets along fine with other dogs, but if he's busy hunting something down (toy or vermin), he totally ignores them until his task is completed. all my other dogs have been either dog aggressive or "Oh goody, a new best friend! Let's go play NOW!"

Another nice thing about him: He has the Teflon coat that's considered desirable in the breed. He doesn't get soaked, and dirt falls off of him as soon as it's dry. Even the nettles he collected during one jaunt through the woods slid right out with minimal effort. (The pine pitch was a little more work; it required a little mayonnaise.) His coat looks labour intensive, but it's easy care: A quick brushing once a week keeps him looking handsome. That thick coat also keeps him from getting scratched up when he's running through brambles.

I would love to have Gunner evaluated for SAR training, but unfortunately I'm the holdup. Physically, I can do it.... I live in the woods & regularly walk several miles at a time with the dogs.... but I can't be dependable at this point in time. I can't leave my job or take a day off at a moment's notice, and I'm having frequent migraines again. 

Ugh.... I just sounded like a bloomin' commercial! :blush:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I imagine your dog probably would do well; most herding stock seem to. BUt then Border Collies (highly succesful) are a bit smaller than English shepherds , no?

I guess for handlers it comes down to the temperament difference between a GSD and a collie type dog and the difference in working them. The size differential is not so great to me. My female GSD is 50lbs, my male 72.

I understand about the job - constant stress for mnay of us. I am taking of for an HR search on Tue but had to miss a live search last week. The HR search is a long shot - the live search resulted (the combined effort of all involved) in saving a life. Had enough folks on the life search though and you can only take off so much. Hope things get better with the migraines.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I heard of a Great Dane doing it... when I first heard about a Dane doing it, I tried to picture it, especially since the one we have here is the biggest couch potato ever but I guess he's doing good. Have not seen him personally doing it. It's another Army Wive on a military spouse forum that talked about it. 


What about Dutchies? Shouldn't they be doing just as well as Mals and Shepherds?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Dutchies are in the mx, just not as common to find. They should fit right in.

As to the great dane, folks have "Trained" all kinds of dogs but I am not sure that makes them good SAR dogs.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

You are right. some folks train what they HAVE instead of finding the proper dog for the job. Dutchies and mals are extremely agile and high drive. The main thing is the drive,temperament, physical ability AND scenting ability. some folks think that all dog's noses are built the same, and that is not true. Breeds should be chosen for that abiilty as well


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