# Tragic story that happened around Philly



## Drewbacca (Jan 6, 2014)

http://6abc.com/965825/
A German Shepherd Puppy was shot and killed in a park yesterday morning. It's very tragic, but I feel it should be shared amongst the community.
Make sure you hold your fur-babies extra close tonight. You never know if something awful like this could happen.


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## Lobo dog (Sep 19, 2014)

Very sad. Without an actual bite i do believe that the shooter used excessive force but at the same time the dog was illegally off lead in a public park. At 6:30am a dog can easily be startled and with the foggy morning light it may have taken him a few seconds to realize it was a friendly stranger in front of him. The dog's owner claims that the GSD was still 20ft away from the shooter when the shot was fired seems like the police could verify whether that was true (bullet depth and whatnot). I also believe had the man just fired the shot into the ground or maybe a pond (if there was one near by), just the sound might have frightened the dog back to its owner or at least a paw or leg shot...but this guy shot to kill. Very sad all around with the only innocent party being the poor dog.


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## Drewbacca (Jan 6, 2014)

Lobo dog said:


> Very sad. Without an actual bite i do believe that the shooter used excessive force but at the same time the dog was illegally off lead in a public park. At 6:30am a dog can easily be startled and with the foggy morning light it may have taken him a few seconds to realize it was a friendly stranger in front of him. The dog's owner claims that the GSD was still 20ft away from the shooter when the shot was fired seems like the police could verify whether that was true (bullet depth and whatnot). I also believe had the man just fired the shot into the ground or maybe a pond (if there was one near by), just the sound might have frightened the dog back to its owner or at least a paw or leg shot...but this guy shot to kill. Very sad all around with the only innocent party being the poor dog.


I'm following the girl's story on facebook right now (we have a mutual friend who shared the girl's original post), and the guy is allegedly deranged, and after shooting the dog, waved his gun at the owner and said to "leave the *** park". but like you said, there are many different factors that are in play here to know all the facts for sure. https://www.facebook.com/TheGSDC/ph...1817526895342/879542558789498/?type=1&theater


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yes, 11 months old is a puppy, but it is a mostly-grown pup that looks like a big aggressive dog, especially when they are acting up, reacting, etc. 

People need to protect their animals by not allowing them to run up to strangers, just being friendly. We have to see our dogs the way people who don't own dogs see them. 

This didn't need to happen, but I feel the dog owner hold the responsibility. Most 11 month old puppies are not well-trained, especially when they are running and playing. If the dog was in a fenced dog park and the people were walking across a fenced dog park to get to the bus stop, then shame on them. If the are was not a fenced dog park, then the shame goes on the owner of the dog. The victim here is not the dog owner, it is the dog. As owners, we need to be more careful!

This is yet another incident that ought to have us burning with rage at the dog's owners, because just letting your dog run up to total strangers, in this instance getting himself shot, but in other instances causing an elderly person to fall, etc. We have to use more sense.

And yes, this would be a totally different story if the dog in question was a Yorkie. We have formidable dogs. If someone pulls out there 45 and takes out a Yorkie, people will be furious and rightfully so. But a GSD can leave serious damage, so it is apples to oranges. You see our dogs being police dogs for real and on the television. It isn't pretty when people get attacked.


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## Drewbacca (Jan 6, 2014)

selzer said:


> yes, 11 months old is a puppy, but it is a mostly-grown pup that looks like a big aggressive dog, especially when they are acting up, reacting, etc.
> 
> People need to protect their animals by not allowing them to run up to strangers, just being friendly. We have to see our dogs the way people who don't own dogs see them.
> 
> ...


that's a great point. very well put, thank you. you pretty much brought to words what i was thinking in my head, but wasn't entirely confident enough to post. and not to sound insensitive to the owners, but these are very intimidating dogs to people who are either afraid of dogs, or are not dog people. i can't tell you how many times i've walked Roya down city streets and i've had people cross the street or straight up get out of her way, and she wasn't even fully grown yet. and despite them courageous police/military dogs, lots of people still view them as aggressive and menacing, unfortunately, through personal experience, and my dog is a bit on the wussy side!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ironically enough people view them as aggressive and menacing "because" they are courageous LE and Military dogs! 

Sometimes tragedies and unjustifiable dog shootings do happen! But if one has a dog they clearly know they can't control and they routinely allow that dog to run up to people?? 

Then that owner should not be "surprised" if "something" happens! So yes it is indeed there fault! Some people have to learn "lessons" the hard way! And most of the time the dog pays for an owners ineptitude!

And I want to say "sorry" you felt you couldn't say something similar! Apparently we can be a pretty rough crowd but some of us are making an effort to change the general tone around here.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Such a sad story.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Hey, let's get off the "blame the victim" stuff. The dog's death was the result of an over-reacting armed person in a public place. Are guns even allowed in the park? (I live in a "gun happy" place. Not sure if they're allowed in parks in this county.) As Kathy said, a sad story.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

middleofnowhere said:


> Hey, let's get off the "blame the victim" stuff. The dog's death was the result of an over-reacting armed person in a public place. Are guns even allowed in the park? (I live in a "gun happy" place. Not sure if they're allowed in parks in this county.) As Kathy said, a sad story.


That's my view as well. The dog could (should) have been controlled better, but that's no reason to kill it. This could have been avoided in a million different ways from both sides. 

I don't understand the need to carry a weapon to a bus stop next to a local park, and suspect that people who feel they must do so have bigger issues than fear of puppies.


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## Drewbacca (Jan 6, 2014)

yuriy said:


> I don't understand the need to carry a weapon to a bus stop next to a local park, and suspect that people who feel they must do so have bigger issues than fear of puppies.


from what i understand and the research i've done, the park is located close to a methadone clinic, and some undesirables frequent the park despite it being a nice, quiet area. ABSOLUTELY NOT condoning carrying a gun OR shooting a dog, or making excuses for the shooter, but we don't know all the facts or the reasoning behind him carrying. also, in addition to what selzer said, 11 months although the owner knows it's a puppy, doesn't mean that the guy knew it was a puppy, and a male at 11 months is just north of what, 75-80 lbs? that's a big dog. there are some people that are afraid of Roya on the street, and she's only around 65 lbs. not saying that's the reason, for all i know that guy could be messed up in the head, but there's a lot of unknown information to really speculate in addition to both the owner/shooters conflicting stories.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

middleofnowhere said:


> Hey, let's get off the "blame the victim" stuff. The dog's death was the result of an over-reacting armed person in a public place. Are guns even allowed in the park? (I live in a "gun happy" place. Not sure if they're allowed in parks in this county.) As Kathy said, a sad story.


Ya know what. People can and do carry guns. And, I can't do anything about that. People are afraid of dogs, and I really can't do anything about that either. 

I can control my dogs and keep them from running unabated to perfect strangers. If these people had, their dog would be alive today. It may suck that the dog is dead. But as an owner it is my responsibility to protect my dog. Not allowing my young, exhuberant dog to run up to strangers might save his life. Failing to do so, can make my dog very dead. Or it can cause an accident where my dog's life may be at the mercy of the court system.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Wow!!!!What if their was a person jogging or running in their direction in the fog. Would the over reactive person with the gun mistaken the jogger for a drug addict going to steal from them and shoot them-probably. Carrying a gun requires much responsibility. You should not be shooting at everything that moves your way. A very sad story. Should the owners keep their dog leashed -of course but this dog did not deserve to get shot. Its a good warning for all that there are many unstable people out there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The thing is, though, you can kill a dog. And you can have few if any repercussions to that. All you need to say is that the dog was coming, and it meant business. 

The dog did not HAVE to mean business. It is dependent on how the dog was perceived by the people who did not know the dog. In light of that, we would be very irresponsible to let a young, excited dog run up to strangers -- fault is on the dog owner.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The responsibility should not be taken away with the person with the gun. A warning shot would of been sufficient. A non aggressive loose dog chasing a ball through a park is as not dangerous as a person shooting at anything he percieves as a threat and is wrong is alot more dangerous.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I know I would not want to walk with my dog on a leash or go jogging for that matter in the same park with that guy with the gun.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> Wow!!!!What if their was a person jogging or running in their direction in the fog. Would the over reactive person with the gun mistaken the jogger for a drug addict going to steal from them and shoot them-probably. Carrying a gun requires much responsibility. You should not be shooting at everything that moves your way. A very sad story. Should the owners keep their dog leashed -of course but this dog did not deserve to get shot. Its a good warning for all that there are many unstable people out there.


20-30 years ago, this would not have happened. There's this huge thing going on about the right to carry and that's putting things in a place we have not experienced since the wild west days, but now - with a twist on idiots carrying. Heck, I feel bad carrying dog pepper spray, but now, you have these office, political cowboys who think it's cool to carry and were not raised to have respect for lethal power.

These people are so paranoid and gun totin" that in my state (Idaho) it's now legal for kids in college (campus and classes) to carry concealed, and oh, they had to add to the new law - that's it's ok for anyone who can pass the concealed test to carry at parades and every other public outdoor event. They are trying to prove a point politically by over running every step forward we have done for safety and it's nothing but a huge step back, this is an example of what's to come.

Another symptom of a sick society.....


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

These laws that are being passed are creating such clear and knowing chaos. What good is going to come out of this but a sick society being led to do itself in.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

To worry about my happy energetic dog getting off leash and shot if he ran up to someone is somthing I never in my life had to think about. Speaking about is even mind numbing. It looks like we are heading in the wrong direction.


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## wick (Mar 7, 2015)

yuriy said:


> middleofnowhere said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, let's get off the "blame the victim" stuff. The dog's death was the result of an over-reacting armed person in a public place. Are guns even allowed in the park? (I live in a "gun happy" place. Not sure if they're allowed in parks in this county.) As Kathy said, a sad story.
> ...


I agree that they probably overreacted in this particular case, but I do feel the need to mention that in many areas parks are not safe especially in the dark/semi dark times. There are also a lot of areas that have a lot of untrained aggressive dogs with untrustworthy handlers. His is an incredibly sad story but please keep in mind that the crime rates and issues vary vastly.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I can only imagine if this guy shot this dog in central park- in no way would this be okay or accepted. The only thing else i can add to this is that thankfully no one else was shot and injured.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> yes, 11 months old is a puppy, but it is a mostly-grown pup that looks like a big aggressive dog, especially when they are acting up, reacting, etc.
> 
> People need to protect their animals by not allowing them to run up to strangers, just being friendly. We have to see our dogs the way people who don't own dogs see them.
> 
> ...


I agree with selzer.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

middleofnowhere said:


> Hey, let's get off the "blame the victim" stuff. The dog's death was the result of an over-reacting armed person in a public place. Are guns even allowed in the park? (I live in a "gun happy" place. Not sure if they're allowed in parks in this county.) As Kathy said, a sad story.


Totally disagree. The dog's owner set the dog up to fail. It was off leash illegally. They decided the leash law was meant for everyone else but them. 

The dog barked and growled at a couple who were at the park, legally. Carrying a weapon, legally. Discharged their weapon, legally. 

Although I don't agree with the actions of the shooter, the fault does lay with the dog's owner who failed to keep their dog safe by obeying the laws that have been put in place to keep the dog and others safe. 

I'm not sure what "gun happy" really means. People skipping down the road waving weapons singing Bob Marley tunes? Or is it people who are happy that they are able to enjoy their right to keep and bare arms as provided in the second Amendment?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Gun laws are out of control and seem to have another motive then to allow people to bare arms. Laws are put in place to keep people safe- this seems to have been forgotten. The fact that it is illegal to have your dog unleashed but is legal to wave your gun around in a public park and shoot whatever you perceive is a threat ,is a place I would never feel safe or ever want to be anywhere near. Talk about a dangerous society. You should not be allowed to act on pure impulse and shoot animals or people based on someone's insecurity and fear then say oops my mistake all is good- it wasn't me. Sounds like a third world country to me- people have same fears getting shot going to the grocery store. What will they do on Halloween their must be a age limit to trick or treat. I hope no tall kids are wearing threatening costumes or there may be a massacre.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> Gun laws are out of control and seem to have another motive then to allow people to bare arms. Laws are put in place to keep people safe- this seems to have been forgotten. The fact that it is illegal to have your dog unleashed but is legal to wave your gun around in a public park and shoot whatever you perceive is a threat ,is a place I would never feel safe or ever want to be anywhere near. Talk about a dangerous society. You should not be allowed to act on pure impulse and shoot animals or people based on someone's insecurity and fear then say oops my mistake all is good- it wasn't me. Sounds like a third world country to me- people have same fears getting shot going to the grocery store. What will they do on Halloween their must be a age limit to trick or treat. I hope no tall kids are wearing threatening costumes or there may be a massacre.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Owner's fault. The dog wasn't under control and off leash. 11 months is a pretty big puppy. When I read the title, I thought it was a little tiny puppy shot just out of meanness. Apparently, the guy _perceived_ the dog coming at them as a threat. Perception is everything. It is still sad. Not sure why this thread turned into a right to carry or not discussion.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I have a concealed carry permit, and I have to say, the last thing I would do with a dog rushing me is pull a gun and shoot. But, that's just me. 

For arguments sake, what if the owner had the dog on a long leash teaching recall or playing fetch. Would that make a difference? 

11 months is a puppy, but like Selzer said, a scary looking adult dog to those that don't know the dog. The shooter could have done more to deter the dog, but he chose the most lethal way. Everyone loses. He's branded a gun wielding idiot and gives the rest of us CCP's a bad rep, the owner loses her dog and gives GSD's a GSD owners a bad rap, and the poor GSD lost his life. 

I will say, I agree to the right to bear arms, I also, however, think there should be a common sense portion during testing for your concealed carry permit. Or when you purchase a gun.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I agree with this 1000 percent.


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## srfwheat (Apr 12, 2013)

I can't believe this even happened. I sometimes take my dog to restaurants with me (eat on the patio) and other places like Tractor Supply. I always have a prong collar on him plus he is obedience trained. If someone comes toward me with objects in their hands he may growl and bark, but I quickly get him under control. Honestly, most of the time he just looks at them. I am glad I found this thread as I rethink taking him into stores with me. Also, I have a permit to carry a gun but would only shoot if I had to. I need to say that my dogs are like my children and have brought me great happiness.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just read this forum if you cannot believe this could happen. Read any thread on pit bulls, and you will have someone trot out the, I would shoot it, that is why I carry. If a dog is rushing at my dog, I would shoot it. 

And some of us constantly say, "I've walked this earth for nearly half a century and I haven't had to shoot a dog yet..." Doesn't matter. People here say they will shoot a dog.

Mostly it is hot air. 

Probably this person read someone's hot air on some site and when they felt a little threatened, they shot the dog, instead of even considering all the other things they might have done.

But it is STILL the dog owner's fault. Why not think the dog will get shot? The dog could get run over by a car or truck. That is just as bad. The dog could be just as dead. If you do not have good recall, then keep your dog on leash, and make sure that your dog is under control. That is called protecting the dog. 

Yes, sometimes things happen when we are unable to protect them. Dogs getting shot in dog parks. Terrible. And I am all about crucifying the shooter in those cases. But when the owner's irresponsibility directly leads to the death of a pet, and they are then blaming the other guy, I know two things, I know that they haven't learned anything from their tragedy; and I know that other dogs will not be safe in their care.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jenny720 said:


> The responsibility should not be taken away with the person with the gun. A warning shot would of been sufficient. A non aggressive loose dog chasing a ball through a park is as not dangerous as a person shooting at anything he percieves as a threat and is wrong is alot more dangerous.



firing warning shots is illegal. A person firing warning shots into the air/ground/wherever is MUCH more dangerous than either.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> firing warning shots is illegal. A person firing warning shots into the air/ground/wherever is MUCH more dangerous than either.


 But shooting a persons dog and waving there gun around is legal Like i said its good think there was no one else killed or injured. Im surprised the other person was not toting a gun. That could of been one real ugly mess -huh It probably would of been "okay"since the other person was a real threat and shot his dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dogs off leash yeah not a good idea. Shooting a dog 20 feet away in the park is psychotic.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jenny720 said:


> But shooting a persons dog and waving there gun around is legal Like i said its good think there was no one else killed or injured. Im surprised the other person was not toting a gun. That could of been one real ugly mess -huh It probably would of been "okay"since the other person was a real threat and shot his dog.



only if a logical person would consider the circumstances as threatening. And, to be honest, even dog people would likely find a large unleashed German Shepherd growling at them to be a threat. 

While most of us would not have shot the dog (at least not without trying other measures first), it was legally a justified shooting.

And, I guarantee that it's very possible that a police officer would have had the exact same reaction. Why? Because it's a large dog not under control of his handler.

It may be a regional thing but where I'm from and where I live now, most police officers believe that everyone should have a gun for self-defense.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jenny720 said:


> Dogs off leash yeah not a good idea. Shooting a dog 20 feet away in the park is psychotic.


having been married to a cop, I can say with certainty that 20 feet is the closest you want to let a potential threat get. A man with a knife (and a running dog can move faster than a human!) can kill an armed man from 21' away before he even has a chance to draw his gun, let alone aim and fire.

It's called the Tueller Drill and is something that almost everyone who has a concealed carry permit, served in the military or law enforcement has been taught.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I know many family and friends that are cops and have to say the people walking around with guns shooting anything that quivers is the reason they are up against all these problems it does not make their jobs easy. I can see depending which state they live in they up for much more. You do know that is not legal in other states. I will never complain how expensive it is to live where we do and will never let anyone push us out. No one is allowed to walk in parks or shoot at things that they may decide is a danger or not!!!!!!!! I hate to say it is no way to live. If you are just protecting your right to bare arms do yourself a favor and do not support these kinds of acts -it will only hurt you in the long run. They should not have any connection. I really like to know what kind of sympathy this man showed for killing their dog its a good thing they did not of had a kid with or he could of got shot by mistake. Someone who acts on impulse with a gun is someone very dangerous i seriously hope you are aware of that. I would not want him walking freely in my town.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I guess it's a matter of opinion. This guy shot something that many people would view as a threat - a large off-leash out of control dog that approached growling.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> I guess it's a matter of opinion. This guy shot something that many people would view as a threat - a large off-leash out of control dog that approached
> 
> I guess it is. If this man left his gun at home this story would of not been told. A harsh reminder to keep their dog on a leash would of been sufficient most likely be the outcome, hopefully they would of listened. The story is what it is and could of been much much worse. It is a very impulsive act to me , which one should be with great restraint if walking around with a weapon I would like to think. This man is dangerous. This story is a warning to all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Where does it say that the guy was waving the gun around? 

It sounds like the guy drew his gun and shot and killed the dog. Sounds like he wasn't waving his gun around. It sounds like he aimed and fired. That is not dangerous. Having a loose dog running up to strangers is dangerous. Firing warning shots into the air is dangerous.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Someone quoted that the man waived the gun in the air and telling the owners of the dead dog to get out. It is dangerous and not normal to shoot a gun in a public place at all !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wow!!!!!!'If I was in that park with my leashed dog and kids that puts my family in great risk. If this was legal and I lived there it would be a major lawsuit. Again this is not normal -people don't need to live like this. I'm glad I can take my kids to my park and not worry about getting shot in a cross fire -and it being legal??????? Yes keep your dog leashed. Know one sees the bigger concern here????? I wouldn't even take my dog to that park what if someone didn't see the leash and shot my dog just the way he looked. It would be my fault right.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I hope the ups or fed ex men are not allowed to carry and shoot over there.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jenny- you make very good points. I'll add the the odds of getting mauled or killed by a dog are astronomically lower than the odds of getting shot. The shooter is much more dangerous than the dog, hands down.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> Jenny- you make very good points. I'll add the the odds of getting mauled or killed by a dog are astronomically lower than the odds of getting shot. The shooter is much more dangerous than the dog, hands down.


Thank you! Yes and the odds of getting shot rise every minute of the day.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am not worried in the least of getting shot or getting my dog shot. The chances are a whole lot higher of one of our dogs biting someone, than one of our dogs getting shot like this. Maybe if fewer dogs were out there biting people, fewer GSDs were sending people to the ER, fewer people would be frightened enough of them to shoot one. 

Our dogs do not kill a lot of people, but they do bite a LOT of people. ERs will tell you, German Shepherds are the worst. We have to get a whole lot better about managing our dogs if we want to stop this sort of thing from happening. The owners with the newf-mixes letting her dogs eat people in her yard; the hag with the pit bull that sicked it on the police officer; the pack of dogs that went after the woman and needed a guy to drive them off with a shovel; the guy who let his pack of dogs kill a woman -- this is the kind of crap that makes people shoot when they see a dog running at them.

This is a dog-owner problem. Dog owners have to start getting furious at irresponsible owners and slap them into line. We have to get smarter about what it means to own a formidable dog. We need to step out of our little boxes and see things from the other guy's perspective. Ours can be very scary dogs. We have to be smarter.

Gun ownership, Conceal Carry Permits are not going to stop because a dog gets killed. Sorry. That isn't happening. I sure don't think that would do anyone any good.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jenny720 said:


> Thank you! Yes and the odds of getting shot rise every minute of the day.


You are a lot more likely to get shot if you are married, in a significant relationship, have a drug problem...

The chances of getting shot by someone who sees a dog attacking and shoots it are significantly lower than your odds of getting mauled or even killed by a dog.

So far plenty of people have been mauled by dogs, and some have even been killed -- about 2 dozen a year. But so far as I know no one has EVER been shot when someone was trying to shoot an attacking dog and missed.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

People get shot all the time by stray bullets!!!!!!!!!people get shot all the time by bad judgment calls!!!!! Owning a German shepherd requires great responsibility I do understand that. I don't let my dog run loose even though it is not legal to fire a gun in a public park with kids!!!!!!!! People who let their dog loose do not need to have their dog shot to follow the rules. There are other way to do things. People don't need to carry guns strolling through a park. This dog was not even attacking anyone the man assumed he would and shot him. You can not go running around town shooting at things based on assumptions!!!!!!!!!!! This man was extremely dangerous to everyone in that park you can not go around shooting someone's dog or pulling out a gun in front of someones family and not expect any consequences. This could of been so much worse. It's nightmarish.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

selzer said:


> You are a lot more likely to get shot if you are married, in a significant relationship, have a drug problem...
> 
> The chances of getting shot by someone who sees a dog attacking and shoots it are significantly lower than your odds of getting mauled or even killed by a dog.
> 
> So far plenty of people have been mauled by dogs, and some have even been killed -- about 2 dozen a year. But so far as I know no one has EVER been shot when someone was trying to shoot an attacking dog and missed.



Odds??? Where are the stats? Where do you get this info? 

I'm just really amazed at they hyperbole (sp) on this forum over this issue. People I usually think respond sanely are responding with unsubstantiated statements about how likely this or that is. Come on!  Either insert "I would think" or "I think" or substantiate it please.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Muskeg said:


> Jenny- you make very good points. I'll add the the odds of getting mauled or killed by a dog are astronomically lower than the odds of getting shot. The shooter is much more dangerous than the dog, hands down.


You are incorrect. I could just state it here and I suppose that would make it gospel. But I was able to quickly find the following:

*Fatal **dog attacks** in the **United States* are a small percentage of the relatively common occurrences of dog bites. While at least 4.5 – 4.7 million Americans are bitten by dogs every year, only about 20 to 30 of these bites result in death, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).[

*Gun violence in the United States* results in thousands of deaths and thousands more injuries annually.[1] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013 firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) caused 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms. The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.[1]


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

In 2013 33,169 people died due to firearms. According to statistics, you are more likely to die from a cold than you are from being shot. I suppose that means next time your neighbor happily waves around a hanky full of snot you should condemn their right to sneeze. 

*Number of deaths for leading causes of death:*



Heart disease: 611,105 
Cancer: 584,881 
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 149,205 
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 130,557 
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,978 
Alzheimer's disease: 84,767 
Diabetes: 75,578 
Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,979 
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 47,112 
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 41,149


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Wow!!!!!!!!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I will never condone people- assuming events that may happen and shooting freely in parks or any public place. This is not the Wild West-good grief.


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## LesterH (Sep 4, 2015)

This might be the most heart wrenching story I've read in a while.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm not excusing not having control of the dog. 

But the truth is every single day in parks across America unleashed, untrained dogs are frolicking. And next to none of them does any harm to a person. Most people do not train their dogs. I see this type of dog every single day out on the trails. Usually quite friendly, quite stupid (compared to a shepherd), and with a kind but clueless owner. And I do not have a problem. If I shot every dumb-friendly dog that ran up to me and my dogs every single day of the week I would have quite the blood-bath on my hands. 

Now, people should indeed control their dogs. And the onus is especially heavy for those that own large powerful and protective breeds like the GSD. But shooting every dog that isn't trained to come when called and is off leash illegally- then many dogs would die daily.

I know many dog owners (vast majority) who think they do not need to train their dog because the dog is low energy, friendly, and not of a "threatening" breed. I'm not excusing this at all, but when I am out running my dogs, the only owners who I see with control over their dogs are those who own GSD or similar (malinois). I think it is a combination of the need for control (reactivity, protective behavior, dog-dog issues) and the fact that people who chose a GSD or malinois probably chose the breed because they are interested in training their dog.

As far as dog bite statistics, people get nipped by dogs all the time for any number of reasons- usually it's a non-aggressive accidental nip and the person is not injured. 

I was citing dog mauling (a prolonged, aggressive attack resulting in significant injuries) and dogs killing people. This type of attack is very rare. 

Also, comparing accidental death by trauma (dog bites, car accidents, drowning, and gunshots fall into this category) to death by disease that often affects older individuals (cancer, alzheimers, kidney failure) isn't a proper or accurate comparison.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My thing is, that most people who get shot and killed are involved or around someone who is currently committing a criminal act, not usually someone who is shooting a dog. Dog shootings are actually pretty rare. The reason we hear about them is because they are so rare. If the US was full of CCP-cowboys shooting every dog that moves, then it wouldn't be news.

I know that with a setter or a hound, you are going to get a pass by most people who have the CCP/weapon and are inclined to shoot a threatening dog. People need to get their heads out of the mud and realize that they own GSDs -- dogs that cops use to attack people. They are intimidating dogs. We do not get a pass. We choose to own a dog breed that frightens people. We have to be head and shoulders above average dog owners. We have no business allowing our dogs to run up to strangers. And if we do, we have no business whining about it if someone shoots our dog. The people doing the whining here are people who probably bought their pup, with at least the thought in their mind that the dog would protect or deter would be criminals. You can't have it both ways folks, you cannot have an intimidating breed and be angry when someone acts on your dog when they perceive it as intimidating. You cannot go around saying you will kill any dog that tries to attack you or your dog, and still condemn this fellow for protecting himself and his wife/girlfriend.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good points, Selzer. 

It is very true that those of us who own "police dogs" really do need to be head and shoulders above other dog owners and take the responsibility seriously. And most of the GSDs I see are indeed well controlled.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And, if anyone around here, within reasonable driving distance, shoots a dog that is leashed and under the control of a responsible person, I will be out there with a torch and and a rope yelling, "LYNCH HIM!!!" 

Ok, maybe not quite that bad. 

But I can't get up my sympathy when owners are grossly negligent.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LesterH said:


> This might be the most heart wrenching story I've read in a while.


Saddly...hang around and you'll see more.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

selzer said:


> People need to get their heads out of the mud and realize that they own GSDs -- dogs that cops use to attack people.


I've seen GSDs that were therapy dogs in hospitals. I similarly see tons of GSDs involved in Search & Rescue and other ways of helping people, without requiring any aggression, and certainly no attacks. 

I could use a spoon to kill someone, that doesn't mean all spoons are weapons. Some members of the public may have the same train of thought as you, but I know I've also meet plenty of people who run up to my dog yelling "Rin Tin Tin!!" or other GSD character names from popular TV/film.

Heck, I go to coffee shops 3-4 times per week (leaving the dog tied to a pillar outside while I get the coffee), and half the time I'll come out to someone petting her and taking selfies. Not something I particularly like, but there are clearly a lot of people out there who don't see a GSD and instantly think of a weapon used by police to attack.



selzer said:


> We choose to own a dog breed that frightens people.


No. I chose to have a loyal, intelligent breed that I knew would be an amazing companion in my life. I chose a dog that I knew would be demanding, but also a great family member. I chose a dog that I saw absolutely everywhere in the part of the world I grew up in, but quite infrequently where I am now; a dog that I consider to be gorgeous and miles above the other breeds in just about every respect. Frightening or intimidating people could not have been further from my mind when I was choosing the breed.

My mother has a beagle, and there are plenty of people that are terrified by that tiny, tail-wagging furball. 

There are people with all kinds of phobias, and at the end of the day, that's their problem, not mine. If someone has a legitimate fear of something I have or am doing, and they communicate that to me in a reasonable & polite manner, I will happily go out of my way to make them feel better, but just because someone chooses to be afraid of German Shepherds does not, in any way, mean I chose this dog with that intention, and I will not let their (usually irrational) fear affect my life.



selzer said:


> We have to be head and shoulders above average dog owners.


This part I completely agree with. Regardless of how one came to own a "bully breed," responsible owners should do their best to have their dog on best behaviour at all times.



selzer said:


> You cannot go around saying you will kill any dog that tries to attack you or your dog, and still condemn this fellow for protecting himself and his wife/girlfriend.


I think there was only one person that said anything along those lines. I'd guess that most dog owners would never even think of killing another pet except in the most extreme circumstances. 

I know when a neighbour's rescue lab sunk its teeth into my dog's neck (about a year ago) with zero warning or reason, I instinctively dropped to my knee and used my hands to open his jaw (got puncture scars on my wrist to prove it). At no point did even hitting the dog cross my mind. I'd be very surprised if I was in the minority in acting the way I did.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The thing is the people that have this happen by and large are not on Forums such as this! They go to FB and cry about the injustice of it all to more "clueless" folks! They get nothing but outpourings of sympathy at how unjust this was...and it was! But it was preventable by anyone with a clue!

Then later on they get another dog and having learned "nothing," they can set up the exact same situation again! 

When the "clueless" meet the "brainless" bad things can happen! Control your freaking dog! Is "always" good advice...just saying.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

For sure. Political correctness, victim mentality and the social media's echo chamber rarely result in any lessons being learned.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are plenty of animals that die from mans stupidity everyday. This poor dog did not have to die by such a cruel and mindless act. An animal or person should never be killed just so someone should learn a lesson. It is as creepy as it sounds. You can not just ignore the fact that this was an act done out of pure panic or there could be more to the story. I would like to know if this man has a history of animal cruelty. Either way I will not ignore his part in this.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

yuriy said:


> I've seen GSDs that were therapy dogs in hospitals. I similarly see tons of GSDs involved in Search & Rescue and other ways of helping people, without requiring any aggression, and certainly no attacks.
> 
> I could use a spoon to kill someone, that doesn't mean all spoons are weapons. Some members of the public may have the same train of thought as you, but I know I've also meet plenty of people who run up to my dog yelling "Rin Tin Tin!!" or other GSD character names from popular TV/film.
> 
> ...


People LOVE our breed. Lots of people are frightened of our breed. Those are just facts. Can they do therapy work and SNR? Sure. That doesn't change the fact that a high percentage of people are frightened of GSDs.

If you ask people working in ERs, which breed of dog do they see the most dog bites from, a lot of them will say GSDs. 

And, unfortunately, there were quite a number of people on this forum who claim they will shoot a dog if it is coming at their dog. Again, most of it is hot air. But someone out there did it, and suddenly everyone is going off the deep end about it. If this dude was walking his GSD puppy instead of his significant other, and the eleven month old pup was a pitbull instead of a GSD, my guess is some people on this site would have a totally different take on his killing the dog. We are after all a GSD site, and no one here will be happy about a GSD pup getting shot. But,


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