# Shy/fearful 10 month girl now nipping



## dancie (Jul 25, 2012)

We have a beautiful 10 month puppy who we adopted from a shelter at 8 weeks. Her mother died shortly after the litter was born and was brought to the shelter at 3 days and nursed back to health by a dog they had there. 

I want to start by saying that with our family she is one of the sweetest little girls I have met, always wants to please, very submissive, is perfect and loving with our kids. 
However we are having some of my worst case scenario problems with strangers/visitors. She is extremely fearful of new people and barks non stop at visitors. Mostly she avoids/hides and barks but she has nipped out of fear on several occasions. Nothing that has hurt anyone, but the behavior is still concerning. It is mostly children that she is afraid of, but she did nip an adult guest we had over the other day. I've worked with her as much as I've been able to over the months as well as doing obedience training with her. The trainer witnessed some of the behavior and warned us that she may just be the type of personality that needs to be in a home with no children. 
We are not willing to accept that as she is very much a part of the family, but it is something we need to get under control because we have 2 younger children in the home and a baby due next week (so lots of children visitors in our home). 

The things we are doing/have done:
Field trips to public places (don't let anyone pet, we just watch people)
Obedience training
Have people ignore her when visiting
When she warms up have them offer a treat for her to come to
Building confidence through training 
Dominance down hold as advised by trainer for very fearful/barking/bad behavior towards children (Have not done this in a while and since advised this is an outdated/bad practice) 

I've contacted the shelter for other ideas and she advised to keep her away from those situations by crating her when people come, which I was not doing because I thought that she needed to get used to them more. We are having company today and I will try that and see how it goes. She also suggested "Mind Games" and posting on here for ideas as well. 

After the baby comes we will work to get her enrolled in another obedience class. Please let me know if you have any other ideas for fixing this type of behavior. She truly is a part of the family and we want to do everything we can for her.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Welcome, Dancie 
We'd love to see photos of your gorgeous Shepherds!

For those who aren't aware, the puppy in question is one from our orphaned litter of 4 puppies. She was formerly known as "Charity". I suggested she come here for assistance. 

Of the puppies, the other two aren't in contact with us (so assuming all is well) but one has been in contact with us and she shows some "skittish" behavior in that when he calls her she will sometimes run away. Other than that she's doing well but they are also very isolated in the woods and don't get a lot of visitors I don't think?
I suggested to him to keep her leashed often to help reinforce her recall.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Until you can get some serious help from a reputable behaviorist/trainer, I would strongly suggest keeping her away from children and guests. Without proper guidance, she can seriously hurt someone, and you definitely don't need that someone to be a young child. 

Some dogs will never be safe around children, and refusing to accept that does not help her at all. Make sure that everyone who comes to your home knows to just leave her alone to avoid any possible conflict. Let a professional guide you in her training, but make sure your family/guests are safe.

Edit: Re-read my post and it sounds kind of harsh. Just wanted to say that I'm just trying to keep the children's safety in mind. I have a dog who is very fearful of children, so I know how tough it can be, and it's so important to make sure everyone involved in the training stays safe.


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

My puppy was similar to the one you're describing. She has no aggression towards us but would jump up and nip guests as they were coming in the home and if they stood after being seated. 
We worked with a behaviorist. Basically what we do is keep her on a leash when guests are here and give her treats for being calm. After the guest has been here for a while, they can slowly toss treats to her without looking or speaking to her. If the guest has been here for at least 40 minutes and we've done the first two steps, she is then muzzled and the leash is removed. She takes a long time to warm up to new people. We don't have kids but when family with kids visit she goes outside. Her issues are due to genetics and she can be managed but her temperament cannot be changed.
I think you need to consult one more trainer in your area for a second opinion. But I'm sorry to say that a large breed dog that nips or bites is probably best in an adult only home):


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## dancie (Jul 25, 2012)

Our company just left and she didn't do too horribly. I do have hope for her I don't think she is a lost cause by any means. She started off in the crate and then after the guests came in and she settled I let her out on her leash. She eventually took treats from the little girl and licked her. She did do some barking and growling at the adults through too as the guests were walking around the house. 
Thanks for all the input so far, would love to hear others suggestions as well! 
(Would love to upload a pic, but I'm having issues since my husband upgraded my OS to Windows 8..change is hard, lol)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This puppy is 10 mos. old. She's not a lost cause. 
I've also given suggestions from a PO trainer (positive only) since they've tried the "other way" and it has failed.
Dancie, were you able to get ahold of Stormi at Smart Paws?


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## dancie (Jul 25, 2012)

Thanks msvette! I haven't had a chance to contact Stormi yet, since I've been busy getting ready for baby who will be here by Sunday! But maybe I will try to get that done before I head into new baby delirium.:crazy:


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

at 10 months old you have what you have. you should continue controlled situations with people and keep working on obedience, but realize that you cannot change her genetics. its great that you believe in her and that you can make a difference for her, and you can to a certain point. having a dog like this takes being a proactive owner, keeping the dog out of situation it cannot handle and keeping her safe from her not so good decisions. its a 24/7 job where you have to make decisions for her. she can get to a better place, but probably never be 100% trustworthy. with fearful dogs they will always react in a way to keep themselves safe. seeing threats that aren't threats, they don't have the ability or mind set to know the difference. its your job to watch a protect the dog.
i know because i have one. its been alot of work and frustrating at times, just when i think i can trust my dog it creeps up and reminds me of what i have and what i cannot change. alot of people just don't have the time and dedication to work with these kinds of dogs. i have had my dog in classes and activitiesw around people, kids and other dogs since he was 12 weeks old, he is now 4 years old. and although i have good control over him in public places there are still situations he cannot handle. i have suceeded in the sport of tracking with him which took alot of patience and persistance, which again most wouldn't have had the determination to do with him. these dogs cannot be confident companions they have to much fear, some might bond with their owners, some really aren't capable of that. its sad to see this in the breed of the GSD, its not supposed to be that way.
i would most definitely get a trainer who can work with you one on one and keep getting him out and slowly exposing her at distances. people ignoring her works really well. and never push anything on them as it makes things worse. 
best of luck i know what your going through and i hope you can get her to a better place.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

CeCe said:


> My puppy was similar to the one you're describing. She has no aggression towards us but would jump up and nip guests as they were coming in the home and if they stood after being seated.
> We worked with a behaviorist. Basically what we do is keep her on a leash when guests are here and give her treats for being calm. After the guest has been here for a while, they can slowly toss treats to her without looking or speaking to her. If the guest has been here for at least 40 minutes and we've done the first two steps, she is then muzzled and the leash is removed. She takes a long time to warm up to new people. We don't have kids but when family with kids visit she goes outside. Her issues are due to genetics and she can be managed but her temperament cannot be changed.
> I think you need to consult one more trainer in your area for a second opinion. But I'm sorry to say that a large breed dog that nips or bites is probably best in an adult only home):


I also agree that you can make this much better using alot of the recommendations above. You need to have her gain confidence in herself and YOU so don't overwhelm her with anything and manage the situation so she can calm herself.

I think a huge help for you to reading her cues and body language (the little early stuff where you stepping in helps the most) is a DVD called 'Calming Signals' by Turid Rugaas. REally helped me SEE early cues so I can step in and help before my pup is overwhelmed and over reacts. Get the DVD not just the book. She SHOWS what she wants us to see and many of the dogs are GSD's so it's even better.

Welcome to Dogwise.com



CLICKER TRAINING! Such a help for timid dogs because it's all positive, crystal clear, we have to 'shut up' so they can figure everything out and gain confidence that way. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-intro-clicker-training-perfect-puppies.html

Read this ---> Helping Shy Dogs Blossom Using Targeting | Karen Pryor Clickertraining


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## rascott (Jan 25, 2012)

Hi Dancie (and msvette!)

I have the former "Hope" from that litter, and she is fearful of strangers too, although we have made a lot progress. We did several obedience classes, and took every opportunity to socialize her that we could find.

We've implemented BAT with her, and it is building her confidence tremendously, though we still have more work to do. On walks we've gotten her threshold down to a few feet, and just last week she let a complete stranger pet her and she gave them kisses.

This link has more information on BAT:
Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA

She is still more fearful of people that come into her space (my house), but I don't get a lot of visitors, and I crate her while people are over.

Also, just an FYI, my girl developed elbow dysplasia at around 7 months (she would waddle with her front legs when she walked and had a really hard time walking downhill). Her hips and spine looked good by x-ray, so we had the surgery done at 8 months, not knowing if it would help, but after 2 months she has made an amazing recovery - so much so that I can barely tell that anything was ever wrong with her.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

This fear seems to be genetic. If so, it can be managed but it won't go away.
If you have small children and a baby on the way I would question if this is the dog for you.
A fearful dog could snap at your own children under certain circumstances.
If this dog lives to a normal life span your children will be growing up with it.

What happens when your children want to have friends over?
With two children and a baby how will you implement all the management techniques that you will hear about?

When your baby needs you, that will be your priority. Your other children also have needs.

Will you have time to keep your dog and guests safe, implement "mind games", LAT. Learn clicker training, and in your "spare" time learn "calming signals".
Personally I would look for a family dog with good nerves so that you can enjoy raising your kids/dogs and not worry constantly about a dog you need to manage.
My views are different from some on here. I have come to realize that a lot of those who post regularly have unusual amounts of time for their dogs. Dogs are their life and they will spend whatever it takes in time and money to work with their dogs.
There is nothing wrong with that choice if it is available to you and what you want to do.
I raised four children and dogs were always part of our lives but they were not my life.
Working and raising kids was my life and dogs were part of that.
I could not have, nor would I have wanted to deal with a very fearful dog and I didn't have the time even if I would have been willing to.
When my kids were growing up, guests could come and go and no one had to worry.
IMO fearful reactive dogs and kids don't mix. These dogs take a special person who has the time, money and experience to deal with them.

Best wishes whatever you do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Very interesting and yet sad too, but also I know we chose very good, qualified and _loving_ homes for the puppies!

This is also why people need to be aware of what they are breeding when throwing two intact pets together of the opposite sex and not breed just to breed. Maybe someday...




rascott said:


> Hi Dancie (and msvette!)
> 
> I have the former "Hope" from that litter, and she is fearful of strangers too, although we have made a lot progress. We did several obedience classes, and took every opportunity to socialize her that we could find.
> 
> ...


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

dancie said:


> Our company just left and she didn't do too horribly. I do have hope for her I don't think she is a lost cause by any means. She started off in the crate and then after the guests came in and she settled I let her out on her leash. She eventually took treats from the little girl and licked her. She did do some *barking and growling at the adults through too as the guests were walking around the house*.
> Thanks for all the input so far, would love to hear others suggestions as well!


Possibly place her back in her crate before people are up and moving around. That she was able to calm herself enough to take treats and actually lick the little girl is huge deal. Her barking and growling showed the movement was to much for her and over her threshold. Once she shows again the same willingness as with the little girl and its one person visiting allow her to stay out of the crate but leashed.



rascott said:


> We've implemented BAT with her, and it is building her confidence tremendously, though we still have more work to do. On walks we've gotten her threshold down to a few feet, and just last week she let a complete stranger pet her and she gave them kisses.
> 
> This link has more information on BAT:
> Behavior Adjustment Training (BAT) | Official site for BAT: dog-friendly training for reactivity (aggression, fear, frustration) by Grisha Stewart, MA


BAT is an amazing training tool. When we first began it with Woolf, a dog or a person could be 100 yards away and he would turn into cujo. Now, much different, still work to do, but he is much more sure of himself and no longer cujo 80% of the time.

BAT is also available on DVD at BowWowFlix . I wanted the visual as well, along with the work we are doing with the behaviorist.

If you want to get a behaviorist involved. International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC) will help you locate one in your area.


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## Ishmail (Jul 17, 2011)

CeCe said:


> My puppy was similar to the one you're describing. She has no aggression towards us but would jump up and nip guests as they were coming in the home and if they stood after being seated.
> We worked with a behaviorist. Basically what we do is keep her on a leash when guests are here and give her treats for being calm. After the guest has been here for a while, they can slowly toss treats to her without looking or speaking to her. If the guest has been here for at least 40 minutes and we've done the first two steps, she is then muzzled and the leash is removed. She takes a long time to warm up to new people. We don't have kids but when family with kids visit she goes outside. Her issues are due to genetics and she can be managed but her temperament cannot be changed.
> I think you need to consult one more trainer in your area for a second opinion. But I'm sorry to say that a large breed dog that nips or bites is probably best in an adult only home):




Excellent advice, I would add correct with choke collar soon as she nips or even starts to growl.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Why would you want to do that, Ismail? 
Generally, punishing for this type behavior is counterproductive to any progress you might have made.
The dog comes to associate people with unpleasantness when you do the types of corrections you describe - instead of looking forward to, and becoming comfortable with visitors.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Ishmail said:


> Excellent advice, I would add correct with choke collar soon as she nips or even starts to growl.


That's not good advice. Then the dog will learn to give no warning when she is uncomfortable and will go directly to the bite. She will never learn how to be comfortable around people.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Think I'd also not add any aversives and corrections to a dog that is already fearful in a situation. Kind of adding fuel to the fire.... no learning or teaching or having the dog learn to work thru it.

Really like what is said about the BAT training. BTW, the woman in the video also references 'calming signals' (only she calls them 'cut off signals) and why WE need to learn what they are so we can help our dog earlier. 



For those who want to watch a brief video it's REALLY great about showing to WATCH the dog and the small movement they make that gets rewarded, plus what a reward is FOR YOUR DOG


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## Ishmail (Jul 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Why would you want to do that, Ismail?
> Generally, punishing for this type behavior is counterproductive to any progress you might have made.
> The dog comes to associate people with unpleasantness when you do the types of corrections you describe - instead of looking forward to, and becoming comfortable with visitors.


Sorry guys but I've been working with two aggressive dogs just these last two Weeks, an American bull dog and Staffordshire terrier and the method absolutely works, also they were fearful and territorial. Use of a choke collar properly does not induce pain, it simply snaps the brain out of that unwanted behavior and gets them to focus on you and deliver a verbal correction. Yes I'm sure other methods work but when a dog is a liability you better let it know that behaviors is unacceptable.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Yes I'm sure other methods work but when a dog is a liability you better let it know that behaviors is unacceptable.


Which is fine if you don't intend to have the dog living closely with or interacting with people.
Adding aversion does exactly the opposite. Dogs come to hate the source of the corrections - it sees strangers, begins to growl and gets yanked around, now it hates the strangers.
2+2 does indeed = 4 in this situation.


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## Ishmail (Jul 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Which is fine if you don't intend to have the dog living closely with or interacting with people.
> Adding aversion does exactly the opposite. Dogs come to hate the source of the corrections - it sees strangers, begins to growl and gets yanked around, now it hates the strangers.
> 2+2 does indeed = 4 in this situation.


Proper usage of a choke collar is by no means yanking a dog around I promise. I love dogs, I recently began a whole hearted effort to rehabilitate aggressive dogs and we have alot of them where I live. I don't even muzzle them when I first approach them, I simply do my best to read them and introduce myself very slowly to gain trust. There is an actual science to how I do it from beginning to end, if you would like I can explain it step by step. I did this for friends and now complete strangers who have had numerous trainers over and: have not had the success I have. I have kept myself safe and given owners hope where they had none before so this is what I'll say, don't humanize dogs and feel sorry for them and two, treat a dog the way other dogs would treat it because thats whats familiar to them.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Ishmail said:


> Sorry guys but I've been working with two aggressive dogs just these last two Weeks, an American bull dog and Staffordshire terrier and the method absolutely works, also they were fearful and territorial. Use of a choke collar properly does not induce pain, it simply snaps the brain out of that unwanted behavior and gets them to focus on you and deliver a verbal correction. Yes I'm sure other methods work but when a dog is a liability you better let it know that behaviors is unacceptable.


My question would be why are these dogs reaching the point where their 'brain has to be snapped out of it'. What cues are they giving that is being missed? Corrections have their time and place, but once a dog reaches the point they are reacting, they aren't learning anything by a correction other then to be silent with the aggression.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> . I have kept myself safe and given owners hope where they had none before so this is what I'll say, don't humanize dogs and feel sorry for them and two, treat a dog the way other dogs would treat it because thats whats familiar to them.


Correcting potential aggression with corrections as you describe is wrong; feeling sorry for them has nothing to do with it.
Reaching them and teaching them before they are past the threshold (fear in this case) is the key.
Punishing them for going past their threshold makes no sense, because the owner should be proactive so they don't go past it, it's not the dog's fault for going past it.

Teaching a dog what* to* do beats punishing it for what it should not do, by leaps and bounds.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Saddest thing about this dog is that it probably won't ever be 100%. It can get better, but you'll never be able to trust her around any strangers. If at 10 months old she's nipping at children and growling at adults, no amount of behavior modification will ever truly get her to be 100%. She could be fine for years and then one day snap, and you'll have no idea why. You'll always need to monitor her, and I think she can be managed, but with your time constraints it might get hard. You can probably do it, and the best thing would be to just keep her contained when people are over. I think its going to take a lot of work, a lot of LAT and BAT, and as long as you're willing to put the work in.

Do not ever correct when your dog is in the "red zone." If you need to correct in order to snap the dog out of what its doing, its too late. You can although correct, growling and any kind of nipping. But this requires you to be attached to your dog, at all times. You should also limit how many people she's exposed to at one time. Start it out really slow, don't over whelm her. At this point, I wouldn't allow her around children until she's fine with adults. You should allow her to see kids, but from a distance, nothing at your home. You are taking a huge risk every time you allow a child in your house she doesn't know. Don't over stimulate her by taking her to places that are used to socialize regular shepherds, you need to keep her out of her over stimulated state and make sure she's always paying attention to you.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> She could be fine for years and then one day snap, and you'll have no idea why.


I don't think it is that dire; but again we don't have history on mom and dad since I was given no info when they arrived...just that mama died.
But I don't think it's going to be like that. The dog is fine/affectionate with her own family and kids.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Personally I would never let other peoples kids around this dog EVER even if you work some of her fear issues out.
She sounds OK around your kids which is great but trusting her with other peoples kids is a whole different ball game.
My GSD is fantastic with EVERYONE.....very trustworthy. We have a very large extended family and like you entertain many small children and not so small children. My dog is not allowed to just be around with the kids....he is separated and given bones to chew when they are over......not because I don't trust my dog but because I don't trust other peoples kids around my dog. Your dog has fear issues to start with and always will have. Even *if *you improve that whose to say some jerk of a kid is not going to do the wrong thing and set her off again......don't set her up for failure.....put her away when you have guests over and protect her.....don't allow her to feel terrified. By all means work on her issues but in the mean time keep her (and your friends kids)safe and put her away.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

sparra said:


> Personally I would never let other peoples kids around this dog EVER even if you work some of her fear issues out.
> She sounds OK around your kids which is great but trusting her with other peoples kids is a whole different ball game.
> My GSD is fantastic with EVERYONE.....very trustworthy. We have a very large extended family and like you entertain many small children and not so small children. My dog is not allowed to just be around with the kids....he is separated and given bones to chew when they are over......not because* I don't trust my dog but because I don't trust other peoples kids around my dog. *Your dog has fear issues to start with and always will have. Even *if *you improve that whose to say some jerk of a kid is not going to do the wrong thing and set her off again......don't set her up for failure.....put her away when you have guests over and protect her.....don't allow her to feel terrified. By all means work on her issues but in the mean time keep her (and your friends kids)safe and put her away.


This is exactly my philosophy...


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree with all thats been said. you cannot trust other peoples kids, and or some people. only have her out when you know people are trustworthy and listen to your instructions to be around her. and only one person at a time with her leashed. never pushing her past her zone. honestly, having a fearful unpredictable dog is like having a retarded child, needing 24-7 supervision. it puts a huge crimp in your lifestyle always having to watch things, be aware of your surroundings etc. not an easy job and very time consuming.

alot of times fearful dogs can be very lovable pets to the owners, but people outside the pack are scarey. as i said before your are always going to have to make decisions for this dog, left on her own and in a situation she will react out of fear to protect herself.

none of us seek out a family pet with these issues, its not what you look for in a family companion. but, unfortunately there are way to many cases of fearful dogs out there and the people who chose to keep them are in for a long hard road, not to mention the liability of it all.

the best you can do is work hard on Obedience, careful socializing, watch your dog closely and learn to read her well.


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## dancie (Jul 25, 2012)

Darn, there is definitely some good advice here, but it's not super encouraging like I was hoping. She really is so amazing with our family I was kind of expecting that we could get her to a 100% spot with other people. The kids love on her, hug her, play with her and she is just so great with us. She is part of our family and we want to do whatever we can for her, but as Jack's Dad said I will have 3 young children, and the dogs do come after them. While we have another Shepherd and experience with the breed, I wouldn't consider us the type of family that is all about our dogs - taking them to dog shows and mastering the art of training techniques and such. We are just a normal family who loves ours dogs. 
We do want to enjoy our house and family, we love to entertain and have people over and I've already felt the restraints of that with her thinking "should we really do that party, Nora can't handle it." Or "let's not host the playdate because of the puppy." I don't want this to have a negative effect on our lives. Ugh. I'll check out the training tools you all mentioned and start working with a local trainer 1 on 1 as soon as I'm able. We'll continue to hope for the best right now. Thanks again for all the replies!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I don't think it is that dire; but again we don't have history on mom and dad since I was given no info when they arrived...just that mama died.
> But I don't think it's going to be like that. The dog is fine/affectionate with her own family and kids.


I know you have no history, but the fact that you're the one that rescued and adopted this dog out makes you a little biased (not a bad thing) and you aren't looking at the situation from completely outside the box.

What I'm saying is that this dog can become great, and be fine, but then one day a strange situation pops up. Say the kids have friends over and start wrestling, all the sudden there is screaming and laughing, and the dog reacts...protecting its family. Now, this situation isn't something that many dogs can go through without failure, but this is also a dog with a much shorter tolerance for things like that.

What it sounds to me like is that this is a family that wants a dog that isn't as much work. They want to be able to trust the dog 100% without parental/adult supervision around children or other people. Just from the little amount of information we have here, I would never trust this dog in those kinds of situations. It sucks, but when you have a dog like this you do have to make certain sacrifices to your own life in order to accommodate the dog. I don't think OP should stop having parties and things like that, but the dog needs to be controlled. I know OP wants the dog in and around the party, but for everyone's safety (including the dog) they can just put her in another room and let her relax in there.

I think OP has a picture in her mind of the dog sitting/laying in the corner of a room that has a dinner party going on and kids playing on the floor. Well, first this is a young dog, so it won't happen, and she clearly has some fear aggressive tendencies. I wouldn't let my dog lay in the corner of a room like that and he's not aggressive at all and I trust him 100%, but he's a large dog that gets excited easily, he loves children, but he's a big boy and doesn't realize he can't play with them the same way he plays with adults. This dog is no where near a bad case and its great that OP came on here for help. My suggestion is just to adjust the expectations of the dog, don't expect her to be like your old shepherd, or the movie dogs, just accept her for what she is and live your life around it. Trust me, she won't be upset at you that you lock her in a room for a few hours, or outside in the yard for a while (if you have a fence).

I think there is a brighter future for this dog, I just don't ever think I'd be able to trust a dog that's aggressive at 10 months of age 100% for the rest of its life no matter what kind of training it gets. Remember, it takes just one bad decision or situation to turn this thread into a "what do I do with my dog now? it bit someone."


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It's a very tough decision.
Your dog has bonded with the children you now have but a baby may or may not be accepted all that well.

Many have not been concerned about your children because you said the dog is good with them.
This is a fearful dog who is not even full grown yet. With age it could become somewhat better or somewhat worse.
I'm concerned about your or anyone's small children because these dogs are unstable and unpredictable.

The dog may not like the baby since it doesn't feel comfortable with outsiders.
Also fearful dogs may re-direct their fear and bite whatever is close which could be one of your children.

Just think about if you want or are up for this for the next thirteen years or so.
My philosophy is children's safety first, dog second.

I agree with martemchik's post. I just saw it after I posted. Except I wouldn't keep the dog.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Dancie, I'm going to suggest Family Paws. They have the Dogs & Storks and the Dog & Baby Connection programs. Plus tons of links and newsletter at the site for parents. I would suggest at minimum a phone consultation with them before the baby comes to give you safe ideas for introduction, it would be even better if possible to have the consultant out for the consult so she/he can meet the dog. 

I am not going to encourage or discourage in regards to this dog, because I do have a bias for FA dogs. I have one of my own. I know just how lovable they are and attached they become to their pack (the family), also how they change the lifestyle, work involved and sometimes unpredictable they can be. I will say use all the caution you normally do with a visitor coming into the house and then add an extreme amount to that.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

if you love the dog to pieces and want to keep her, please keep things safe for her sake and yours. you will have to be VERY on top of things. you will learn as you go on and explore about FA dogs. and they do teach you alot. the training and socialization can go back and forth. just when you think things are going well, you might take a step backwards, and that means the dog went over her threshold of tolerance, so you have to back up and try try again.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well, I agree many if not most regular folks don't want to have to put that much work into dog ownership.
I'm fine more or less with owning an FA dog because I don't need my dogs to be social or anything. We don't expect them to interact with people, if they must it's nice they are polite but it's not required-- as few people who come over, we can put the dogs up for the duration of the visit. 

Weird and wonky things can happen with any dog, and throw things out of balance.
That said, at 10mos., she's still very placeable (still a puppy) so it may be best to give up now before she's older and more set in her ways. 
We can seek a less social family for her. 

Just holler, you have our email addy


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i disagree about her being very placeable. doing what she's doing at 10 months is going to take a special person that has the time and patience to work with her. probably a person or family with no kids and has knowledge about training and socializing and knows what they are getting into with an FA dog. maybe some people don't care about socialization and don't have many visitors and just put them away if someone comes, it only takes one time when your back is turned that something could happen. i vote for training and socializing to at least bring the dog to a better place. fearful dogs need a leader and a trainer so they can relax and not be scared of the world. i can't imagine what its like going through life being scared of everything and feeling like i had to protect myself from scarey things constantly.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Her other sisters have very successful placements...so yes, very placeable with the right person or couple. 

Did you notice what the OP said about her being attached to her family? She is far from being "scared of everything". 
The other sisters are very happy in their homes.
This is Faith (now Lucy) and her owner raves about what a wonderful girl she is.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

most FA dogs are very happy and comfortable with their families. its strangers and strange things that they are scared of. i for one would not seek out a dog that is FA or a nipper. i have one and got him as a pup and chose to keep him, and have done tons more than most people would, and the training and socialization will continue for his life., So, i have a very good understanding of what it takes for these dogs. i will love and keep him for life, but would not want another one. its a constant worry and liability. maybe some people don't mind that type of temperament but, its not how a gsd should be.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I understand...having a rescue...how intensive FA dogs can be.
Sometimes you just get what you get, especially when adopting a puppy. Usually people don't seek out dogs with issues, but that's how it sometimes winds up.

But these dogs are not lost causes, by any means. And although more intensive, as Twyla said, these dogs' love and devotion for their families makes up for the issues they may have towards others.

The OP has messaged me and stated they'll be keeping and working with their girl.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, these dogs deserve to have a happy life and there are people like me who keep them and work with them, and give them every opportunityto thrive and get to a better place!

And good for the OP for keeping her and working with her.........thats great!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I think that OP should definitely do what they've decided. I don't think this dog is a lost cause at all, I was just warning about being way more vigilant with this kind of dog. I never for a second thought they should be rehoming her, she hasn't yet done anything critical and the OP seems like they are the kind of people that are willing to do the work. Are there more risks in this situation? Absolutely, but I think there have been success stories in the same situation so I'm not going to put it past them to succeed.

I hope for all the best, it would be nice to see a family that rescued a dog and ended up with something not like they expected but still work through it. My advice is just to keep HER protected, don't allow her in any situation where something bad can happen. It's great that you're keeping the dog, but remember, one bite might not kill her, but it will definitely make her not rehomable. As hard as it would be to find her a home right now, anything worse would pretty much make it impossible.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I realize this is a dog forum but I'm amazed that everyone assumes this dog will be just fine and there should be no concern for the OP's children.

There are no guarantees in life and hopefully everything turns out fine.

However, with all the stable dogs looking for homes, why risk things with a FA dog in a home with small children?

All of you who are so happy about the Op's decision don't have to live with the consequences if it doesn't work out.

Almost everyone who has had a FA dog on this forum never wants another one.

There were a lot of suggestions how to handle this dog but no volunteers to take it.

That's the internet I guess. Advice (mine included) is particularly easy when we suffer no consequences for it.

This board sorely needs more people who have or have had children.
For too many on here their dogs are there kids


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

Wow, the sister is a beauty-I had assumed the OP's puppy was mixed. It's not often to find PB puppies in rescue. 
Anyway, I wanted to suggest a few more tips since the OP will be keeping her girl. 

Whenever you give the puppy a treat you should always simultaneously reach out and lightly touch her with your other hand. You can do this with her muzzle and different areas of her back. This helps her associate touch with reward. 

Give her plenty of walks and exercise appropriate to her age. At 10 months she should be getting a half hour walk every day. 

Try to find an activity where she can focus her energies. My FA dog enjoys nose work and another person here said they do tracking with their dog. 

Study websites, books and films dealing with fearful dogs. I highly recommend Brenda Aloff's Aggression in Dogs. Control Unleashed for puppies is another book that should help you a lot as well. Some good blogs are Fearful Dogs Blog, Reactive Champion, and Lessons from Layla.

I really admire your commitment to your dog. I hear about a lot of pregnant woman re-homing their "normal" dogs just because a baby is on the way. It's obvious you love your dog and I wish you all the best. Keep us updated.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

jack's dad said:


> i realize this is a dog forum but i'm amazed that everyone assumes this dog will be just fine and there should be no concern for the op's children.
> 
> There are no guarantees in life and hopefully everything turns out fine.
> 
> ...


yup!!!!!

Just wanted to add that I would be SUPER CAREFUL with this dog around a new baby too.....I have 12 week old baby and we are so careful with our 2 dogs who have solid temperaments.....a new baby won;t be seen by your dog as another "child" so just be really careful.....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the problem is fear aggressive dogs are unpredictable - you never know what will startle them or make them feel threatened , and the reaction is fast -- .
This dog may be in a comfort zone in a quiet , predictable , home , with patterns . A home with 3 kids and a new baby on the way is anything but calm - I think it is approaching a tipping point where things can go wrong, very wrong. 
I can't see anyone getting the time they deserve . Not the dog , not the children , not the new baby , and who comes last , not the mother who needs a break. That is one heck of a lot of management and juggling to do. 

Carmen


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the problem is fear aggressive dogs are unpredictable - you never know what will startle them or make them feel threatened , and the reaction is fast -- .
> This dog may be in a comfort zone in a quiet , predictable , home , with patterns . A home with 3 kids and a new baby on the way is anything but calm - I think it is approaching a tipping point where things can go wrong, very wrong.
> I can't see anyone getting the time they deserve . Not the dog , not the children , not the new baby , and who comes last , not the mother who needs a break. That is one heck of a lot of management and juggling to do.
> 
> Carmen


Yeah...good post Carmen.

Having just had a baby (my 2nd) I couldn't imagine having to deal with this in those early days. A crying baby adds much tension to a family and the dog will pick up on this. 
Mum has a lot on her plate over the next months and should be focusing on the birth of her baby not training a FA dog but it is up to her.
Mum.....don;t feel you have to be the saviour to this dog.....rehousing her is a very reasonable option given your situation and if it were me.....she would be going.
Good luck


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

if we were to compare this to baseball we would all agree, this is quite a pickle. this is not a game though. as i am not an expert i will offer no advice only a few uncomfortable words, i have worked in an er for close to 30 years and have seen some dog bites that have for ever altered children and adults for the rest of their lives due to severe scarring along with what was expected to perm nerve damage, inability to smile, raise eyebrows, limited mobility in fingers, hands feet ect. 
as i stated, i am not an expert but i am smart enough to know you can not take chances, nor do i know if you are, so i hope you you will have a pro trainer come into your home and assess the situation in regards to risks to your children. you may have to accept the fact that this is the wrong dog for you and would be better off in the proper home. it is also possible you have the exactly the home this gsd needs and you need to know how to adapt. since i am not an expert, i don't know. since you are emotionally involved, i am not sure you should decide without some pro help and evaluation. good luck with your "pickle".


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## Ishmail (Jul 17, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the problem is fear aggressive dogs are unpredictable - you never know what will startle them or make them feel threatened , and the reaction is fast -- .
> This dog may be in a comfort zone in a quiet , predictable , home , with patterns . A home with 3 kids and a new baby on the way is anything but calm - I think it is approaching a tipping point where things can go wrong, very wrong.
> I can't see anyone getting the time they deserve . Not the dog , not the children , not the new baby , and who comes last , not the mother who needs a break. That is one heck of a lot of management and juggling to do.
> 
> ...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I've rescued a FA dog who started out doing what this puppy is doing and just got worse in spite of conditioning, working with an extremely well qualified behaviorist, proper socialization, management and everything else. There is no way I could have handled that dog with strange children in the house. While I realize this is a puppy and I know MsVette is very adept at rescue and adoption, I would find another home for this dog and hold off on a puppy or other rescue until the children are older. I've seen a dog go from sweet and gentle to red zone in the space of a few seconds, and I was thankful there were no small children around. Parents with 2 young children and a baby don't have the time to give this dog the right type of socialization. I'm also a little surprised (please don't take this as an insult, merely as an observation) that a rescue group would give an unpredictable dog to a family with children this age. When we went through a breeder, they insisted on meeting my whole family and said they never give a puppy to a family with young children. I know there are people here with young children and GSDs who are best friends, but it's too great a risk with a dog you already know has issues. The rescue groups I work with do the same. They are very picky about who gets their dogs and the ages of children in the home.

I hate to be so blunt, but others have spoken their minds with me, and I had to say it. I think the dog should be rehomed and the family should wait until their baby is older.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I wouldn't keep a fear aggressive dog that behaves as you described around my children. I don't have children but I do have 2 nephews and would never have a dog in my house that behaved as described. 

I personally would rehome this dog back to the rescue and let it be their problem. If they are responsible then the dog wont be placed in another home with children. As a puppy they had no idea temperament would change to this but now, they know and can place the dog in a more appropiate home.


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## Blitz-Degen (Jul 22, 2012)

How many people are there at any given time? Is it possible that it's an overload for her? If I were scared of people or new things, and I had a family of 4 people that I lived with and suddenly I have a house with 6 people or even 8 people I'd panic too! Do you have all people in the same room at the same time? Maybe try introducing smaller numbers of people at a time, one at a time. It may be good to get her use to one person ONLY, a really good person with super yummy treats then after she's comfortable a new person. Maybe after 2-4 people she'll learn that people are ok and won't be as scared. I'd still keep her in her crate, and move her to the leash. I hate muzzles, but I'd do it if I needed to.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I really admire your commitment to your dog. I hear about a lot of pregnant woman re-homing their "normal" dogs just because a baby is on the way. It's obvious you love your dog and I wish you all the best. Keep us updated.


Hi folks, I'm in Alaska right now (vacation, yay!) but wanted to stop in and see this thread - mom has stated they are committed to this dog (and yes we will take her back, as her rescue, are more than ready and willing to do so) and are working with her. They discussed and are very attached and do not want to give her up.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Hi folks, I'm in Alaska right now (vacation, yay!) but wanted to stop in and see this thread - mom has stated they are committed to this dog (and yes we will take her back, as her rescue, are more than ready and willing to do so) and are working with her. They discussed and are very attached and do not want to give her up.


i admire their commitment to their dog. i understand their feelings, but without some pro help, is this a good decision on their part? do they truly understand the risk? again, i am not an expert, but i have seen the results when things go wrong?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They have professional help.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

thats great they have professional help. as long as they can follow through with things at home etc, they should see some changes. i hope they do understand that no matter how well trained this dog is there will be times of unpredictable behaviors and they need to watch the dog closely.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> I don't think it is that dire; but again we don't have history on mom and dad since I was given no info when they arrived...just that mama died.
> But I don't think it's going to be like that. The dog is fine/affectionate with her own family and kids.


Sorry, but I had a female who was EXTREMELY calm, affectionate, and loving to everyone in my home. She attacked random people (both in and out of my home) without so much as a growl. She was NEVER safe. EVER. I couldn't take her anywhere after awhile. Multiple trainers, avoidance therapy, reward training, easing into people... nothing worked. She had a weak head, made bad decisions. She was about this age (maybe 10 months) the first time she did this. Was sitting being petted then suddenly jumped up and took a woman to the ground. Her next lunge was to her throat. This was a dog from titled German Imports. I will NEVER do this again. Her entire life my kids couldn't have anyone in the house unless she was crated in the laundry room. I never worried about her harming anyone in the house... but I'm lucky we weren't sued over her attacking. My male actually tackled her once to keep her from taking down my MIL. It never goes away in dogs like this. You can manage to a point, but thinking you've "fixed" the problem is just putting your head in the sand, IMO.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is moot at this point. OP has left never to return and me...well, I'm just waiting.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Agree....this sounds like an accident waiting to happen.....PLEASE keep that baby safe.
Did she leave because of the advice she was given??
What exactly are you waiting for......


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> It is moot at this point. OP has left never to return and me...well, I'm just waiting.


That's very childish. Do people come on here just to get validation for what they are already going to do anyway.

If so, it's not much of a loss.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Do people come on here just to get validation for what they are already going to do anyway.


ALLLLLLL the time...

But remember, too - you're talking about someone's family member. You may as well say "put a bullet in her head" because that's how they took it. 
This is the 1st time, btw, I've recommended someone I know come on here for advice. Not sure if I will again :shrug:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It wasn't really harsh. Myself and a couple of others suggested re-homing the dog because of her children and baby on the way.

That's not exactly telling someone to put a bullet in the head of a family member.

Anyway glad the two of you are happy and I hope it all turns out well for the kids sake.

If they took that tame thread the way you said, they are probably too sensitive to deal with this dog anyway.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

I can't believe she got offended by the responses she got.....sometimes the truth hits a nerve I guess.
I too hope it all works out for the best and that everyone stays safe.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> If they took that tame thread the way you said, they are probably too sensitive to deal with this dog anyway.


 How rude.. They are getting professional help and trying their best for their family and the dog's sake. It is unfair to judge in such a way.  If that is true then I would like to see you step up to the plate and help this poor dog, since you are so macho and not sensitive.
If someone told you to rehome your dog I'm sure you would be a little shooken up and taken aback as well.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It hit a nerve because they love the dog and were hearing (from a few, anyway) "it's hopeless, get rid of the dog". 
Do you not think that's disturbing when they had hoped for _training methods_??
Which is what I, too, hoped they'd hear. The LAT/BAT stuff, etc. 
Instead, it was gloom and doom and they don't want to give her up. 
Horrors 



> Anyway glad the two of you are happy


Excuse me???? What is that supposed to mean?? You have no idea how I feel about the situation, I guess??


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Those of us that have been through it loved our dogs, too. The first time my girl attacked (and I managed to react to stop before she got the woman's throat) I cried for hours. I didn't want to believe I'd have to put her down. I tried EVERYTHING. My entire extended family was terrified of her, my kids ended up resentful to a point after years and years of not being able to just have friends over.... I exhausted every resource. My male was constantly on alert for her to do something to someone if I did take her out or if we had people over. It's a truly heartbreaking situation. It's not the owner's fault that irresponsible people are breeding or they just happened to get a dog with a weak head. I worried all the time that something would happen (despite my precautions) and she'd either kill someone or scar them for life. THAT to me is worse all around than having to put your dog down. Not to mention being sued and possibly losing everything you have... and then having to put the dog down anyway after someone's torn up or killed to boot. The truth about having a dog like this *is* hard. It's brutal. No one's questioning the love for the dog. At least, I'm not. I've lived it. I'd rather be the one "scarred for life" though. And I am.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jag, we have rescue and know the situation first hand (our own and foster dogs) and through adopters.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> That's very childish. Do people come on here just to get validation for what they are already going to do anyway.
> 
> If so, it's not much of a loss.


That sort of attitude is why she left. You may not think it was harsh, but it sounded that way to me. There were better ways to make the point than some did. The OP was willing and able to put in the work and money required and a lot of people just told her to give up. 

Furthermore none of you know the dog at all besides a description given by the OP. I would hope we would trust msvette with her judgement (who has actually met both the dog and family) that it is not a lost cause yet. Telling someone to give up their dog is a huge decision that cant be made by people who dont know the dog nor the family. Thats why it probably was a bit offensive.This board is ridiculous sometimes.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JPF said:


> That sort of attitude is why she left. You may not think it was harsh, but it sounded that way to me. There were better ways to make the point than some did. The OP was willing and able to put in the work and money required and a lot of people just told her to give up.
> 
> Furthermore none of you know the dog at all besides a description given by the OP. I would hope we would trust msvette with her judgement (who has actually met both the dog and family) that it is not a lost cause yet. Telling someone to give up their dog is a huge decision that cant be made by people who dont know the dog nor the family. Thats why it probably was a bit offensive.This board is ridiculous sometimes.


You and angryrainbow need to go back and read the thread. 
I was an advocate for her children for which she never thanked me.
I said I would not keep the dog under those circumstances. 
Did not tell her to get rid of the dog. 
I would.
I will always take the safety of children over keeping an unstable dog and I won't apologize for that.
It's her kids and her dog and if she wants to take the risks that's up to her.

angryrainbow: I had one fear aggressive dog and determined that I would never keep another one. I'm not interested in the liability and the risks associated with them.
For those willing to do that fine.

There were plenty of dog advocates to tell her what she wanted to hear.

If people ask for advice they will get it. If they don't like some of it they are free to ignore it. I just think taking your marbles and going home is not real mature. ​


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> You and angryrainbow need to go back and read the thread.
> I was an advocate for her children for which she never thanked me.
> I said I would not keep the dog under those circumstances.
> Did not tell her to get rid of the dog.
> ...


It's actually probably the most mature action she could have taken. She made the best decision for herself and her family whether you agree or not. No one here knows better than her the actual circumstances.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Personally, I agree with Jack's dad. I also did not personally find anything offensive in what he said or how he said it-- I thought it was fine. :shrug: 

Too many people do not put their children's safety first-- then we have tragic "accidents". This is not to say the OP should make the decision to rehome the dog. But if you post looking for thoughts, advice and opinions, then that's what you'll get. And they may all be different--but what if the majority all felt one way? What if several of the most respected posters on the forum all suggested one path? Would a poster pack up and leave if it didn't jive with what they wanted? That's what I'm understanding jacks dad to mean.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well we can sit around and discuss until the cows come home, but we've really done all we could. And yes, I mean "we".
When someone wants to keep a dog they do. When they want to give it up, they do.
This person was looking for training advice and that's really all they wanted.
You can't make someone do something IRL, let alone over the 'net.


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## JPF (Feb 5, 2011)

She left because (as I understand) she is getting professional help and does not need the help from anonymous internet posters anymore. She doesn't owe anyone an explanation as to why she left.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JPF said:


> She left because (as I understand) she is getting professional help and does not need the help from anonymous internet posters anymore. She doesn't owe anyone an explanation as to why she left.


This. 
Exactly.


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