# If you don't have something constructive to say don't say it:)



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

There has been ALOT of posts lately, new people joining looking for information etc, that I have been seeing going down the 'tubes' because of 'snarkiness', downright rude comments, holier than thou attitudes and "i am right in all that I say".

Some of those new posters just disappear into thin air because of it. I can't say I blame them. 

We all have our opinions but there is a way to state them without going off on a tangent of it's "my way or your an idiot". 

There is so much GOOD information on this board that gets lost in the sauce with the sniping back and forth. 

No one has perfect dogs. Everyone has a preference which doesn't need to be shoved down some person's throat because "you" (general you) think it's not right. Some need to learn to respectively disagree with something and/or learn to shut up and walk away. 

With that, be respectful of people's feelings, and if you don't have something constructive or educational to say, don't say it. 

Try to educate vs instigate. Just sayin.


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

You are absolutely right. One thing that particularly riles me is the person who calls another poster rude. That person comes off more rude and judgmental than the person who first posted. LOL! I'm not new and have a thick skin. I can definitely see where new people are put off. We can all try to do better. When we are feeling snarky, we should log off and take a nap.


----------



## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> You are absolutely right. One thing that particularly riles me is the person who calls another poster rude. That person comes off more rude and judgmental than the person who first posted. LOL! I'm not new and have a thick skin. I can definitely see where new people are put off. *We can all try to do better. When we are feeling snarky, we should log off and take a nap*.


So true
Time for my nap.


----------



## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

You're absolutely right... we need to remain a united community. The only problem is that this community is so large, and there are so many different people with conflicting beliefs and interests. People here are going to argue, and try to defend their beliefs.

This happened to me, and I had to leave the thread because it would go no where. My beliefs conflicted with someone elses and I got very upset. Just the reality of it all.


----------



## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

You're right. I signed up because we are first-time GSD owners (first time dog owners for that matter), and for the most part appreciate what we've learned from such knowledgable people.

There was one thread where I asked a question that was slightly off topic, and I was accused of hijacking the thread. That left a bad taste in my mouth. Not enough to stop searching this forum for valuable information, though.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

I _almost_ left when I first joined. For the first few days I was made to feel like I was a complete idiot who shouldn't even own a dog. I just stopped posting for awhile and just kept reading... then I just came to the conclusion that I have raised many dogs, many well behaved dogs, and if I could do that then I didn't totally suck as an owner. I had to realize that I was on a board with many people who don't just have GSD's as pets. I picked & chose what advice to take and what advice just to say to myself "that doesn't work for me" and continue on. 
But I do agree... there is a lot of hostility to new members, even if it's not done on purpose.


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Thank you Diane for this post. It needed to be said.

We are all adults here, yet some acts like little teenagers with the bickering back and forth.


----------



## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Diane:

Your quote, "Try to educate vs instigate. Just sayin" sounds like my husband's mantra "learn, not judge".

I'm in total agreement with both.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Interesting to see a mod post on this subject. We all know this subject has been hit so many other times. Interestingly, when non-moderators post such statements, the threads seem to become some humor-fest calling out how the OP doesn't know what they are talking about, or they are just plain wrong. Case & point:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/168791-sake-gsds-nicer.html

I totally agree with you (though I haven't noticed it lately). People here are staunchly opinionated. More so than any other forum I've frequented. It is a big turn off at times.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You know, threads like this always bring to mind the guy who wanted to buy male and female littermates to breed because he thought it would be cheaper and easier than having to find two different litters. 

Or the young lady who was in college full time, working, caring for family's kids and then got a puppy against all advice, started having behavioral issues and wanted to breed her to "settle her down" and "make her better with kids" and then eventually ended up re-homing the dog because she was moving and didn't have time for her. 

Or the guy who wanted to know how he could train his 10-week old GSD puppy to be protective because his brother kept breaking into his room and kicking the puppy.


Sometimes there are things that need to be said that aren't all sunshine and rainbows. I, for one, will continue to "not-encourage"-- maybe even discourage-- people like the above. 


What happens in these threads is that every individual who posts feels passionately about the stupid decision that is being made and so tries to post in a firm-yet-tactful way to discourage it. The problem with that is that when forty people are being firm-yet-tactful with you, it starts to feel a whole lot like you're being attacked. Then the fights start. And because every individual member of this board has the right to say what they want, and most of them make good points individually I really don't know how to stop the "mob attack" phenomenon that happens when 200 people feel strongly about the same thing. Even when we're trying to be polite (I have noticed a trend towards posts themselves being more polite), 200 people being firm with you starts to feel a lot like a lynchmob.


----------



## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Well put, Diane.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

wildo said:


> Interesting to see a mod post on this subject. We all know this subject has been hit so many other times. Interestingly, when non-moderators post such statements, the threads seem to become some humor-fest calling out how the OP doesn't know what they are talking about, or they are just plain wrong. Case & point:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/168791-sake-gsds-nicer.html
> 
> I totally agree with you (though I haven't noticed it lately). People here are staunchly opinionated. More so than any other forum I've frequented. It is a big turn off at times.


I agree...it is an opinionated group. I think it takes a strong person to raise a GSD correctly...and strong opinions seem to come with the territory. Although you are right there are times it goes way out of line...on the other hand there are times like Emoore mentions below...that there is not a nice way to say somethings. The man who was wondering how to train his dog not to dig and says he'd never kick a dog, but had man-punched her comes to mind. There aren't a lot of nice ways to say "you're an idiot"

With all of that, I think there are times people are scared off and that's sad because I believe some of them really are looking for advice. Others who leave...I don't believe they're scared...I think they aren't being told what they want to hear, which is you are doing it all the right way, it's your dogs fault.
Just my opinion.



Emoore said:


> You know, threads like this always bring to mind the guy who wanted to buy male and female littermates to breed because he thought it would be cheaper and easier than having to find two different litters.
> 
> Or the young lady who was in college full time, working, caring for family's kids and then got a puppy against all advice, started having behavioral issues and wanted to breed her to "settle her down" and "make her better with kids" and then eventually ended up re-homing the dog because she was moving and didn't have time for her.
> 
> ...


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> The problem with that is that when forty people are being firm-yet-tactful with you, it starts to feel a whole lot like you're being attacked. Then the fights start. And because every individual member of this board has the right to say what they want, and most of them make good points individually I really don't know how to stop the "mob attack" phenomenon that happens when 200 people feel strongly about the same thing. Even when we're trying to be polite (I have noticed a trend towards posts themselves being more polite), 200 people being firm with you starts to feel a lot like a lynchmob.


Well said. There have been times that I've seen red flags and I've had to say something. I've tried to be as tactful as possible, but some people still think it's mean to rain on someone's parade. 

But there are certain things that, ethically, I just can't let fly without saying something. Like those examples in the last post.


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

There is a huge difference in *constructive criticism* and *destruction in criticism.*
There is a wealth of information on forums, much of which is beneficial.
There is a wide variety of opinions on forums, because of the wide variety of people.
Not *one* poster is an authority on everything...no matter what they may think.
We all start at the "start line"....where we *finish* is up to us as individuals.

The problem with many threads is that the OP starts out with a problem or question.....and instead of just having opinions or answers given....they are bombarded with more questions and accusations....
Such as: "What does, What ifs, Whys, BYBs, Red Flags...etc..etc..."
There is no reason to make people feel inadequate or threatened on any Internet forum...no matter "how good the intentions may be"....or how "perceived their knowledge may be".
_And here you have,...just my Internet opinion....._

*Be careful who's foot you step on......it may be connected to your very own ankle.*


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

I agree. It can be hard at times when an OP comes on and you cringe that they even have a GSD. Then again, I am sure we all remember our first one and how much we have learned and changed since then. 

We have all made mistakes raising our pups and also learned due to those mistakes. We take GSDs seriously. We are passionate about the breed, otherwise we would not remain. 

GSDs are our family members and sometimes I know how I forget how many people are out there that just wanted a dog or ended up with one and come here to us not knowing basically anything. 

This board is a wealth of knowledge. Somewhere within the members everyone has had that something that is asked about, whether medical, behavioral or training, etc.

I think it is a great reminder to look at ourselves as a resource, tutors and teachers as opposed to parents 

When I first started teaching college students, the main premise I was taught was to be a facilitator, not a teacher and to have a sense of humor.

I guess that should be the same goal here.

Or maybe I should act like my boy....wag first rather than bark:happyboogie:


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> The problem with many threads is that the OP starts out with a problem or question.....and instead of just having opinions or answers given....they are bombarded with more questions and accusations....
> Such as: "What does, What ifs, Whys, BYBs, Red Flags...etc..etc..."
> There is no reason to make people feel inadequate or threatened on any Internet forum...no matter "how good the intentions may be"....or how "perceived their knowledge may be".


Personally, I wish the internet had been around when I was looking for my first GSD... it may have saved me a lot of time, trouble, and heartache if a forum like this had been available. Personally, I'm all ears when I want information, be it good or bad... and it can be frustrating when people seem to be holding information back because they don't want to say anything bad. 

Sometimes the OP starts out with a question and doesn't like the answers given... and gets insulted or angry... but what are we supposed to do, simply tell them what they want to hear so everyone is happy and rainbows? ...until 6 months later when they come back with a serious health or temperament problem, that is...

I think the key word here is "constructive". Even (especially?) information that may be upsetting can still be constructive.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

FredD said:


> Well put, Diane.


:thumbup:

I don't post much, but I am here daily reading. I am of the firm belief that if you can't help, then don't post.
I follow that belief, which again, is why I don't get involved where I can't be an asset.
There are a lot of judgmental people here. But you'll get that anywhere.
I don't ask for advice or even discuss my dog for that very reason.
I'm a non confrontational person. I wish that others could see that the person they are judging or being rude to actually has feelings.
Can't someone point out a spelling error without being rude?

You want to know another reason I don't post much? Because Gunner is one of those ASL 100lb monstrosities, mutant monsters/beasts because he's over the standard. And of course "asl's are for sure not very popular on this board" and are "aesthetically displeasing dogs".

Why on earth would I want to subject my dog to those kind of comments?
I guess what I'm trying to convey is that using derogatory terms just because you don't like a certain line, is unnecessary and hurtful to someone who owns one of that line.
There was another board I almost joined before I found this one. I lurked for a bit and decided it was not the place for me and my "deformed" ASL who shouldn't have been born because he's just a lowly American Showline. And he's not considered a "real" GSD because he is just *gasp* a pet!
I joined here because it appeared to be much more "line" friendly. 
Why can't people have respect for other lines even if you don't like them?
I know, I'm asking too much with that, but seriously, when you start debating how unappealing a certain line is, you start offending people.
In my opinion, it accomplishes nothing more than running people off this board.

Ok, end rant!


----------



## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

'Constructive' is a subjective term when it comes to advice. One person's 'constructive' can be another person's idea of bad advice. As Freestep said, the OP brings his/her own background to the discussion and can take advice in a way other than intended ... or not understand. I suppose if we always include a JMHO or 'this is how I see it' with every piece of advice that might help. As long as you don't say JMHO you're an idiot.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDGunner said:


> You want to know another reason I don't post much? Because Gunner is one of those ASL 100lb monstrosities, mutant monsters/beasts because he's over the standard. And of course "asl's are for sure not very popular on this board" and are "aesthetically displeasing dogs".


As the owner of a much-beleved BYB bag of nerves, if anyone insults your ASL dog I'll punch them in the nose! 

I think it's one thing to try to steer someone away from making the decision to buy from a bad breeder, but when someone already has the BYB dog (like me) it's completely unacceptable to insult him. Again, it's one thing to say "I like working line/ WGSL dogs because. . . ." Nothing wrong with that. But to insult another line of dog is unacceptable. And you're right, a lot of both tends to go on. 

I do think that if someone is trying to steer someone away from using a breeder who breeds oversized pets with no health clearances, it's easy to get insulted because you (or I) own an oversized pet whose parents had no health clearances.


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Linda, your Gunner is stunning, one of my favorites on this board. Koda FOR SURE will be over 100 lbs. he is already 92 lbs at 9.5 months. Nothing that I did nor the breeder caused this, some people just can't understand that once in while, these big dogs will pop up in a litter. The same with humans, why one child in the family is taller than the rest?


----------



## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

Agreed.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Josie/Zeus said:


> The same with humans, why one child in the family is taller than the rest?


*cough*milkman!*cough*

:rofl:


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

*It's not "what one says.....it's HOW one says it".....*
I've never been a "yes" person or "butt smoocher".....not a follower nor a lemming...and I'm learning things everyday too.....BUT...I do *try* to be polite and non judgemental in my posts....._even if_ _it's nearly killing me._.....so it can be done!


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

All I can say is thank god the board is moderated. I'm on a board that isn't and it's a joke. Lotta internet tough guys on that one. :rolleyes2:


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> :thumbup:
> Why can't people have respect for other lines even if you don't like them?
> I know, I'm asking too much with that, but seriously, when you start debating how unappealing a certain line is, you start offending people.
> In my opinion, it accomplishes nothing more than running people off this board.


I hope you understand, we're not bashing *dogs* or the people who own them--especially if they are pets--heck, my own dogs are pets! The criticism is mainly directed at the *breeders* who produce unsound dogs, who are in it for the money and do not care about health and temperament. It's not the fault of the dogs, or the unsuspecting people that purchase them. It's just that we hate to see people get taken for a ride from unscrupulous breeders... at least I do, because I've been so taken before.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

A lot of good points here. I think the ones who are out for all out insults, seem to be in the minority. I too have a BIG dog, his parents had health clearance....but he's nothing fancy (or maybe he is I can't read pedigrees) but he is the result of a WGWL and a White....I've never had anyone insult him or his background....but I've never asked, probably for fear of my mommy claws coming out 
I think for the most part I've seen people trying to be constructive, but the other poster was spot on...constructive to one person isn't universal. My husband was raised in household where everything was sugar coated, I was raised in reality....so my idea of constructive is all out destruction to him.
I think everyone at some time could be nicer, just human nature.....but opening yourself up to a public forum...I think you need to be objective and secure enough to realize, take what works for you leave what doesn't.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I do think that if someone is trying to steer someone away from using a breeder who breeds oversized pets with no health clearances, it's easy to get insulted because you (or I) own an oversized pet whose parents had no health clearances.


Yep, I did get insulted by the demeaning comments towards over the standard dogs. My oversized dog is just overweight at the moment due to a leg injury. I'm working on getting that weight off now that the leg appears to be healed. Nothing I can do with his height though. 
Gunner's breeder is not a BYB and he came from champion titled parents with health clearances. Even within the standard OFA'd parents can spit out a 28 inch dog. It happens. 
I would never EVER belittle anyone for having a BYB dog. I don't think Gunner is any more special than any other dog whether from a reputable breeder or a BYB. I hope my post doesn't imply that. I just wanted to clarify. 



Josie/Zeus said:


> Linda, your Gunner is stunning, one of my favorites on this board.


Thanks, that means a lot!


----------



## SamanthaBrynn (Sep 2, 2011)

I have to admit, there have been times when I've been made to feel completely stupid on this forum...heck maybe I am! BUT the important part is that I'm here to learn and I LOVE my dogs so much! Being a first time GSD owner it's nice to have a place to come with so much information. 

Sometimes what we say isn't exactly what other's hear. I needed that reminder myself.


----------



## Remo (Sep 8, 2004)

As a wise friend taught me, there is an art to making a point, without making an enemy - I used to call her the velvet hammer. She would get her point across, but in such a way that you could not get mad about what she said. It is ALL in the delivery.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Emoore said:


> *cough*milkman!*cough*
> 
> :rofl:


You are on a roll lately. I love it.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I hope you understand, we're not bashing *dogs* or the people who own them--especially if they are pets--heck, my own dogs are pets! The criticism is mainly directed at the *breeders* who produce unsound dogs, who are in it for the money and do not care about health and temperament. It's not the fault of the dogs, or the unsuspecting people that purchase them. * It's just that we hate to see people get taken for a ride from unscrupulous breeders*... at least I do, because I've been so taken before.


I have no problem in people not liking my dog because he's a ASL. I take exception to the way it's conveyed and how my dog is insulted by the derogatory comments.
There are too many generalizations. My ASL does not look crippled, has a straight back, good temperament and, in my opinion, is handsome! 
But when one reads some of the comments here, you'd think that every ASL is horribly deformed. 
My whole point was that there is never a reason to be rude or bash another line simply because it's not what you (and I don't mean YOU in particular) find appealing. 
Not every oversized, above the standard GSD comes from a unscrupulous breeder. Mine came from a very reputable breeder who bred two champion showlines who are both within the standard. 
Gunner is over the standard, it happens. 
And God forbid I mention who his grandpa is, I'd be hung for sure.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDGunner said:


> I have no problem in people not liking my dog because he's a ASL. I take exception to the way it's conveyed and how my dog is insulted by the derogatory comments.
> There are too many generalizations. My ASL does not look crippled, has a straight back, good temperament and, in my opinion, is handsome!
> But when one reads some of the comments here, you'd think that every ASL is horribly deformed.
> My whole point was that there is never a reason to be rude or bash another line simply because it's not what you (and I don't mean YOU in particular) find appealing.


*like* 
*like*
*like*


----------



## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

FredD said:


> Well put, Diane.


Yeah, that!


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Remo said:


> As a wise friend taught me, there is an art to making a point, without making an enemy - I used to call her the velvet hammer. She would get her point across, but in such a way that you could not get mad about what she said. It is ALL in the delivery.


You have a very wise friend! That is exactly what everyone should live by. 

You could also say "treat others as you would want to be treated".


----------



## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

One of the best examples of "professional & courteous" posting is done by Chris Wild.
I always find enjoyment in her informative posts....she has an excellent way to get her opinion across without a demeaning tone. *Whether one shares her opinion or agrees with her*.
Demeanor is many times *key* when expressing one's opinion.....


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

One of the things that I don't understand nor do I care to witness is when a person posts in a forum that is not the critique my dog section-it could be the brag forum or even mention how much their dog eats and then people will ask them to post a picture of their dog from this angle and that angle and then start criticizing the dog, in a very nasty manner calling it fat, ugly, etc. Very rude, and extremely uncalled for. Especially when the OP never asked nor encouraged such scrutiny of their dog.


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Its normal for people to have a bad day and for things to come out all wrong. I've had those days where nothing I did was right, on net or off net. There is also no emotion in just words, no gestures, facial expressions, tone in voice, etc. So that to can make things hard.

Then there is just being down right rude and mean for no other reason than one can be.

Its like a big balancing act sometimes. Between things said that are really mean, things that are taken the wrong way, people who are really sensitive, etc etc etc.

Some people don't like that others disagree with them, or when its pointed out that what they are saying is just an opinion. While I do agree that if you put something out there, you need to expect to possibly get answers or comments that you aren't going to like. That is normal, but that doesn't give people the right to be down right hateful and rude, nor to tell the other person to "grow thicker skin". 

Its about personal responsibility. Something some people don't want to do.


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> One of the things that I don't understand nor do I care to witness is when a person posts in a forum that is not the critique my dog section-it could be the brag forum or even mention how much their dog eats and then people will ask them to post a picture of their dog from this angle and that angle and then start criticizing the dog, in a very nasty manner calling it fat, ugly, etc. Very rude, and extremely uncalled for. Especially when the OP never asked nor encouraged such scrutiny of their dog.


 
Really?? People on here call other member's dogs 'ugly'????

How dare they!!!!!? :angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

GSDGunner said:


> And God forbid I mention who his grandpa is, I'd be hung for sure.


Gunner and Hondo could be twins....if Gunner was the long haired, hippy type (as Hondo is). 

At this point, I don't care what the standard is. It makes no difference to me at all. I think that if a new poster came on and stated they wanted a show dog, something they could compete with, then I could understand all the hoopla over standard etc. But the direction should be informational and not you're an idiot if you don't do as I say. 

Honestly, it's because of this forum that I decided with a different working breed to compete with. It seems that the average GSD club can lean towards the snooty side. I want my dog and I to have fun, not run for office.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> One of the things that I don't understand nor do I care to witness is when a person posts in a forum that is not the critique my dog section-it could be the brag forum or even mention how much their dog eats and then people will ask them to post a picture of their dog from this angle and that angle and then start criticizing the dog, in a very nasty manner calling it fat, ugly, etc. Very rude, and extremely uncalled for. Especially when the OP never asked nor encouraged such scrutiny of their dog.[/QUOTE
> 
> I have mixed feelings on that...I posted a pic of our mix in the brag section when he passed his 1st round of obedience. There were a couple people who mentioned he looked *ahem...chubby". At first I was a little put off that it made no mention of his accomplishment....but then looking at it objectively I was glad they mentioned it. Sometimes a mothers love is blinding and I would hate to just think he is *thick* due to his breed mix and overlook him being overweight and causing him health problems in the future. As many have posted...it's all in the delivery, and sometimes written word is hard to decipher anothers intentions.
> 
> ETA....but ugly comments would be uncalled for no matter what section it is in. Kaos may not be standard appearance wise, ok he isn't he 30 inches tall, but there isn't anything anyone could say to affect me. He meets my standard


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GregK said:


> Really?? People on here call other member's dogs 'ugly'????
> 
> How dare they!!!!!? :angryfire::angryfire::angryfire:


I was just wondering that myself... I've never seen that... or maybe I have not visited the right topics? 

I mean yah, some dogs are not pretty but they are pretty to us and it's just with babies, you don't say to a mother that her child is ugly. 

Now, I did say a couple of times that my own dog is not the prettiest, conformation wise. But it's one thing if I say that, it's another when somebody else says it without any reasoning. 

If you ask for a critique there is a way to say "your dog isn't pretty" just by stating the obvious facts about the conformation but nobody would go ahead and say "It's one ugly bitch..." because that's just wrong...:help:


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GSDGunner said:


> There are too many generalizations.


:thumbup:.....and assumptions.


----------



## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I don't see why now would be any different, but I'm pretty sure personal stuff should be taken to PM.

ETA: I am sorry for your lose Emoore, but I see this ending badly by you "calling out" a poster and making the thread personal.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Okay then.

I've always thought the best way to fix something was to say, "Hey, you said this and I know you didn't mean it that way but it really hurt me."
But maybe you're right and it's best just to ignore it. It is the internet after all. You're right.


----------



## KentuckyGSDLover (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, I'm pretty new, but when it comes down to it I'm also pretty thick-skinned. If anyone kicks me when I'm down, I tune them out. I do enjoy the comraderie with other GSD owners, but honestly, I really don't care what y'all think about my dogs. What I think about them is more important. I love my dogs and I want them to be happy, well-adjusted and reach their full potentials, whatever that may be, and I have found some posts on this forum to be very helpful in achieving those goals. 

There are a few times I've wanted to yell, "Stop it, y'all!" when someone posts some difficulty and the thread degenerates into resembling a dog pooh fight.


----------



## jang (May 1, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> I don't post much, but I am here daily reading. I am of the firm belief that if you can't help, then don't post.
> I follow that belief, which again, is why I don't get involved where I can't be an asset.
> ...


Ditto


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

I was looking at your pictures of Gunner and I think he is cuter than anything!:wub: 

My boy is big and fuzzy. 

The other day when we were waiting in the car a kid screamed "WOLF WOLF!" pointing at my boy. Then a man walked by and told his son..."see there boy, that is a "Collie Wolf"....HUH?

My boy is a long coat west german GSD. His parents were both standard coat WG SCH3 GSDs. I just wanted a long coat and waited till one popped out of a litter from my breeder. It was a long wait. Many people do not like long coats. That is chill with me 

Not everyone likes this dog or that dog or they find imperfections....but as long as I love my dog I will show him off to everyone!!!!

Wouldn't it be terrible if we hid every human child that did not fit the perfect kid standard in other peoples eyes?

What a loss it would be to celebrating the diversity of nature.


----------



## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

Based on pictures alone, I have a hard time telling whether a dog is ASL, GSL, WGL, DDR or whatever. I often guess wrong and think a dog is ASL when it is GWL (for example). All I can say is that there are some seriously GREAT looking dogs in here. It might me an interesting thread to guess what the background on a dog is just based on a picture. However, because you know each other so well, it would be easy for many to make an educated guess.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> Not every oversized, above the standard GSD comes from a unscrupulous breeder. Mine came from a very reputable breeder who bred two champion showlines who are both within the standard.
> Gunner is over the standard, it happens.


Good point, and you're right--even reputable breeders have totally unexpected things pop up, things that they could not have known about, and certainly didn't breed *for*. I once had an oversize bitch--I loved her to death. She was not bred for size and I didn't buy her for her size, it's just what I ended up with. But I didn't take offense when people remarked at her oversize stature--I knew it was a fault and didn't care, since I wasn't using her for breeding. My current dogs' breeder once had a liver pop up in a litter. That does not make the breeder unscrupulous nor irresponsible. Until we can map the entire genome of each dog, there will always be surprises, and it's no one's fault. 

My issue is with breeders who do not breed for health and temperament, but rather for some external quality like size or color, to make money satisfying an unsuspecting pet market. I will never fault the dogs themselves, or the people who own such dogs as pets. I just feel badly for them when they end up with a health or temperament problem that could have been avoided if they'd bought from a more responsible breeder.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Okay then.
> 
> I've always thought the best way to fix something was to say, "Hey, you said this and I know you didn't mean it that way but it really hurt me."
> But maybe you're right and it's best just to ignore it. It is the internet after all. You're right.


 
I'm pretty much the same way. I don't read between the lines. If there is a post that I find kicks me in the head, I'll normally first reply with "What?" (Or using my southern charm I'll say, "Come again?"). But only if it's from a poster that I enjoy reading from. If it's a newbie, I'll mostly ignore it. Let them get their feet wet first.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't take offense at someone telling me my dog is oversized. He IS oversized. He's definitely overweight. Something I'm working on now and seeing results. I can't help it that he had a leg injury that healed, then was re-injured causing a lot of inactivity for quite a while. 

But I will take offense at my dog being called a monster or beast because he's oversized and too tall.

There are certain lines I'm not into as much as others, but I would NEVER put them down simply because I might not like them. That's just my personal preference.

Bottom line is that people should be more respectful in their posts. I understand that some come here for advice only to argue against it. So be it, if that's the case, wash your hands of it and bow out. Getting snarky certainly isn't going to help. Instead of screaming "show me the pedigree" when someone mentions breeding their dog, try reasoning with them.
The old saying of flies/vinegar might go a long way.

And lastly, maybe someone doesn't know how to spell "shepherd", is it really necessary to make them look like an idiot for spelling it wrong?
Educate them, don't berate them.


----------



## SamanthaBrynn (Sep 2, 2011)

KentuckyGSDLover said:


> Well, I'm pretty new, but when it comes down to it I'm also pretty thick-skinned. If anyone kicks me when I'm down, I tune them out. I do enjoy the comraderie with other GSD owners, but honestly, I really don't care what y'all think about my dogs. What I think about them is more important. I love my dogs and I want them to be happy, well-adjusted and reach their full potentials, whatever that may be, and I have found some posts on this forum to be very helpful in achieving those goals.
> 
> There are a few times I've wanted to yell, "Stop it, y'all!" when someone posts some difficulty and the thread degenerates into resembling a dog pooh fight.


This is perfectly said!  What you think about your dog is the most important.


----------



## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

The boards are a great wealth of information with many positives and drawbacks, there are emphatic, helpful posters, there are those who are less than helpful and some who aren't polished in responding so their advice good or bad can come off the wrong way. If you don't want something critical said, don't put it out there, some things are fodder for others. However some people have legitimate concerns and need help, which is always given, just sometimes it has to be waded through.
My bitch just went through her first heat - I didn't come to the board about it, why? Because OMG what reputable rescue would adopt a dog who wasn't spayed? Maybe a rescue whose funds are limited and putting a 150lb dog under to do an exploratory isn't budget friendly? OMg what responsible owner would have a dog 4 months and not have the surgery? Me, and we dealt with the heat and surprise she wasn't accidentally bred... I didn't want to hear it, so I didn't post about it. I just dealt with it. Will she be spayed - eventually, but not right now. I cannot make the commitment to make sure the deck and steps are clear of ice for a week while her incision heals, the only way in or out of my home is down or up 3 steps. My garage while heated and a part of the house is too cold to banish her there for a week.
Same as we were looking at harnesses for her to start carting... The owner of the pet store said is she well trained - me, well as well trained as an 18 month old pup who has lived in my home 4 months can be... He responds oh well I just wondered since you are putting your daughter in the cart with her pulling - yeah buddy, but not at first, and even when she is trained and I'm comfortable with my child in the cart, I will still have her on a prong and be at her head... This guy owns the pet store and is advising me on a harness to buy, yet thinks I'm going to hook an 18 month old St Bernard to a wagon with my 13 month old child in it and let them gallop all over the neighborhood. Maybe it could be a race between CAS and the SPCA who gets to my house first! He also thought I should buy Cesar's harness, which would be fine, but carting isn't done pulling with a harness around the neck! I use him as an example of folks on boards, one would think - hey owns a pet store, maybe he knows stuff or has learned through osmosis being around dog owners, might be someone's whose advice is worthwhile. Meanwhile - the guy is a moron, nice, well-meaning, but clueless as to what we are doing. Even dh got the hint I wanted to buy the dog treats and leave and stop talking harnesses when the guy was confuzzled by me saying prong - dh, not a dog guy beyond having owned a couple as a kid was like those things hanging over there. I get having a hard time being sensitive when absolute stupidity presents itself.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree they are a wealth of information but I've been noticing a tendency for people not to help any further unless the OP has done exactly what was demanded, even when it makes no sense,and then to get nasty about it. Sometimes there are comments made on other boards and then the people carry it over to this board regardless of whether the first person has washed their hands of it just to have the last word. So, on top of whether you have anything constructive to say...add stalking and harassing to that list as well.


----------



## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm also another member with a very oversized dog, but I don't let it bother me because he's healthy, his nerves are totally solid, he has great drive, and he's not dog, people, child, animal, mailman, mother-in-law, etc aggressive. If people want to judge him just on his size, lines, or breeder background, then they've convinced me that maybe their future posts have some sort of bias as well and aren't worth reading, especially if they are rude about it.

Being polite isn't just for the benefit of everyone else. If you give consistently snarky or rude posts, people are going to catch on and they are just going to stop reading and responding to your posts. So if you have something valuable to say, no one is going to listen to that. It doesn't take long to make a polite post that isn't sarcastic or snarky. If you are over emotional about some things it helps to walk away for a bit, look at it from all sides, and then come back and post.

It also helps to step out of the dog world for a bit and see what the average dog owner is like. People breeding their dogs just so they can be a mother, or people not neutering their dogs because they are uncomfortable with having their own balls cut off, or people feeding their dogs iams..... these are all what the typical dog owner does, and you need to step out of the responsible dog owner world and understand that yelling at them for doing something that is unfortunately quite common and normal will just make them think you are a psycho instead of helping them rethink their views on dog ownership.


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> I agree they are a wealth of information but I've been noticing a tendency for people not to help any further unless the OP has done exactly what was demanded...


Yes, we have to remember we are giving options not demands. Not every dog does well with what worked for our dog, so the more options the better. Give the OP alot of choices so they have a box of things to work with, whether it is nutrition (not all dogs can eat raw not all dogs can eat kibble, not all dogs can eat premium or not all dogs can eat Alpo (but some do) ) or medical (not every dog responds the same to the fix).

One of the best posts I had was when I was looking to add weight to my boy. Everyone kept on giving me options rather than saying do it this way. I implemented a few of them, discarded a few and my boy gained 2 pounds.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

VegasResident said:


> Yes, we have to remember we are giving options not demands. Not every dog does well with what worked for our dog, so the more options the better. Give the OP alot of choices so they have a box of things to work with, whether it is nutrition (not all dogs can eat raw not all dogs can eat kibble, not all dogs can eat premium or not all dogs can eat Alpo (but some do) ) or medical (not every dog responds the same to the fix).
> 
> One of the best posts I had was when I was looking to add weight to my boy. Everyone kept on giving me options rather than saying do it this way. I implemented a few of them, discarded a few and my boy gained 2 pounds.


That is exactly how I feel. Give me a bunch of options I can look into, wrap my head around and see what works best for my dog. You live with your dog and are the best one to consider which options fit and which don't.


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Jax08 said:


> I agree they are a wealth of information but I've been noticing a tendency for people not to help any further unless the OP has done exactly what was demanded, even when it makes no sense,and then to get nasty about it.


Oh gosh, how true is this. In fact, based on these "demands" I'm pretty sure in their eyes, I shouldn't even own a dog. 

I let Koda out in the backyard unsupervised every s.i.n.g.l.e day for an hour or 2, Gasp!


----------



## ozzymama (Jan 17, 2005)

Jax08 said:


> So, on top of whether you have anything constructive to say...add stalking and harassing to that list as well.


Darn it, my resolution for 2012 was to stalk you!


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

Josie/Zeus said:


> Oh gosh, how true is this. In fact, based on these "demands" I'm pretty sure in their eyes, I shouldn't even own a dog.
> 
> I let Koda out in the backyard unsupervised every s.i.n.g.l.e day for an hour or 2, Gasp!


Geee, I must have been horrible. My last GSD, she was in the yard in Idaho (doggie door to sun room) along with our Labrador while I was at work. We had a webcam so I could see her. It was all grass and about 10 trees, nothing else. 1/4 acre with a baby pool.

that said in Vegas? No way in hades I would leave my boy alone at all in the yard.

Every shoe fits differently for every dog. :wild:


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ozzymama said:


> Darn it, my resolution for 2012 was to stalk you!


REALLY??? REALLY?!!! I ALWAYS WANTED MY OWN PERSONAL STALKER!!! :groovy:


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

ozzymama said:


> Darn it, my resolution for 2012 was to stalk you!


Guess I can cross stalking off my list if you are going to do it :wild:


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't have an answer to the newbie OP posts except to cut them some slack.

I think we all bring both our ignorance and our experiences to share.

The problems arise IMO when our views are attacked.

One of the first threads I started was about how long dogs spend in crates. I quickly found out that there are a lot of people who use crates for long periods and weren't thrilled with my view. I since understand there are a lot of people who consider lengthly crating both normal and even better than *throwing your dog out back and ignoring them*.

The part I made bold is the beginning of a problem. It's defensive and an assumption that if you don't crate your dog the alternative is to expell it from the family to the yard. Where it is only fed and watered and ignored.

This is just an example of how things go astray.

There are cultural, and generational views and how we were raised around dogs that give us our view on the role dogs play in our lives.

Also some have dogs for emotional reasons. All of these varying views have the potential for conflict.

I have sympathy for new people. Eveyone is new at some point. Not just on the forum but new to dogs or GSD's in particuliar.

I at one time or another made most mistakes that are discussed on the forum. For example I have had dogs from breeders, BYB's, pet store, Humane Society, rescue, and from individuals re-homing. Out of all of those scenarios I've only had one problem dog.

That brings up another controversial subject, training. When I grew up people did basically two things trained with a choke chain and harsh discipline or didn't train at all. Now we can argue a whole thread over prong collars.

Sorry for the long post but I believe threads go off track because people feel attacked either for their dogs or the way they raise their dogs.

I try to take the good and leave the rest but I have been caught up in issues from time to time.


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

:hugs:Oh...I feel a group hug coming on!!!!!!!:hugs:

That and a little stalking


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Only if we can do the hugging and stalking somewhere warm!!


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't have an answer to the newbie OP posts except to cut them some slack.
> 
> I think we all bring both our ignorance and our experiences to share.
> 
> ...


:thumbup: Well said.


----------



## VegasResident (Oct 4, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Only if we can do the hugging and stalking somewhere warm!!


I vote Hawaii....I am very willing to stalk if we all go there.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

VegasResident said:


> I vote Hawaii....I am very willing to stalk if we all go there.


whewwww...think of all the "things" we could stalk there!!!!


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> I was just wondering that myself... I've never seen that... or maybe I have not visited the right topics?
> 
> I mean yah, some dogs are not pretty but they are pretty to us and it's just with babies, you don't say to a mother that her child is ugly.
> 
> ...


I can point you in the direction of a thread where this was indeed said-if anyone really wants to know simply PM me.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I take the information and advice given on this thread and see how it can help me and my dogs. Sometimes I can follow the thought process and tweak the meathod a little. Sometimes, after reading a post, I actually say "GAH!" out loud. 

I think the one thing that sticks in the back of my head is there are so many folks who don't even join the forum. They may have a problem with thier dog, jump on to find some answers and read a post about breeding your male dog twice a year to 'releive the tension', then jump off and try it. 

I admit, there are times when I'm glad a thread gets a little heated.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Alas, I am in just that crazy land where the stage of the moon and the line up of the stars coincides my natural individudal rhythms so that I am perfectly poised to say just about anything, **** the torpedos! 

Been crazy busy lately so I haven't posted much on most threads but I did get into it on the my-dog-bit-six-times-and-now-I-need-to-do-something-or-put-the-dog-down-thread. Now that topic is going to get some people going. Some people think you should try a few things before jumping to euthanasia. Some people think that one bite is enough to put the dog down. Others think that one bite is not enough, but several bites is. Most people say that we should not diagnose over the internet and find a trainer/behaviorist. Other people say that they don't need to have trainers/behaviorists shoved down their throats. And pretty soon it is one big mess of opinions.

We are not supposed to listen to vets when they say feed this food or don't feed that food. We are not supposed to listen to vets when they say give this vaccination, give this flea preventative or wormer. We are not supposed to listen to the vet when the vet tells you that your dog is not a good candidate for back surgery and you should put him down -- yes individuals on this site were ticked at me for putting Dubya down on the advice of my vet. But suddenly if you have a dog that bites and the vet says euthanize, you should listen to the vet. 

There is good advice and bad advice on the internet. Some people have been in dogs for decades and some are brand new. Some are trainers, owners, handlers, breeders, vet techs, and some people really have very little actual experience. Just because someone has owned dogs, shown them, bred them, worked at a vet's office, does not necessarily mean they had been doing things right all along and definitely have excellent advice in every instance. And the newbie with their first pup may have a few real gems of insight. And, just because someone says they have done x, y, and z or n years does not mean that they actually have. It is the internet, We all have to make a decision about any advice we receive with the understanding that there is an element of anonymity in all of this, and not everyone is who they profess to be. We do not _know_ eachother, but over time we can trust some posters more than others.

I find that oftentimes I have trouble with the responses to the OP than to the OP itself. If someone has a dog they cannot handle, they do not have the resources available to them to work through the problem, they are concerned with the liability, I can understand them putting the dog down. I have a hard time with people strongly encouraging a person to put a dog down. I do not think anyone should call the person names for considering putting the dog down or for putting the dog down. 

And, when people make several statements pounding in things like "the dog can KILL you." I just can't let something like that go. If we were a pit bull forum, THEY probably would have a hard time letting those statements go unchallenged. But GSDs are not out there killing people, when less than 1 human being in a year of any age's death is attributed to a GSD, I am sorry, that is just not an argument you want people pounding into people's heads in this climate of BSL.

And sometimes dogs bite for reasons that are outside of human influences, physical problems, serious genetic temperament issues, but as often as not dogs bite because of lack of training, lack of leadership, lack of management. We have a breed whose breed standard (at least in Germany) requires that the dog be willing to engage. It stands to reason that without respecting the needs that our dogs have of training, exercise, leadership it is possible that our dogs will bite. Our dogs do not have to have a loose screw to use its teeth. A very experienced GSD person who encounters a biting GSD, might be able to make a determination that the dog has a loose screw and put the dog down. But for the majority of us, I think that that would be a bit much -- guarantying that the dog's problem is genetic, irreversable, etc. 

So, if this was inspired in part by that thread, well I am sorry. But there are some things, like when a dog's life is on the line, that it is worth an argument about. I am shocked at what things people will put a dog down for. It is a continuum where we all land on the subject. No one should be abusive in how they respond to each other, but disagreeing with someone else, well, what point is there to a message board if you cannot discuss varying opinions on a variety of topics?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> We are not supposed to listen to vets when they say feed this food or don't feed that food. We are not supposed to listen to vets when they say give this vaccination, give this flea preventative or wormer. We are not supposed to listen to the vet when the vet tells you that your dog is not a good candidate for back surgery and you should put him down -- *yes individuals on this site were ticked at me for putting Dubya down on the advice of my vet.* *But suddenly if you have a dog that bites and the vet says euthanize, you should listen to the vet.*


HEAR HEAR! I actually agree with you on that.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

By the way. I think the easiest way to put a dog to sleep is to tell the vet that the dog has aggression issues.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I enjoy some heated threads. I learn more sometimes from those than completely tame threads.

I don't think taking over a new persons thread is a good thing though. 

Such as the large dogs in New England area. There were things to learn in that thread but I'm not sure it had anything to do with the OP's question.

I think that is the type of thing Diane was refering to.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

he


selzer said:


> So, if this was inspired in part by that thread, well I am sorry. But there are some things, like when a dog's life is on the line, that it is worth an argument about. I am shocked at what things people will put a dog down for. It is a continuum where we all land on the subject. No one should be abusive in how they respond to each other, but disagreeing with someone else, well, what point is there to a message board if you cannot discuss varying opinions on a variety of topics?


I don't think it was about that thread. It's not about good advice vs bad advice. It's the way the advice is given, it's about being rude in giving that advice. It's all about showing respect and remembering there is a person on the other end of that venom that you may be spewing.
Healthy debates are good, but when the debate turns counter productive and achieves nothing, it's time to bow out. 
What good comes from bashing another? 
At the end of the day, it's not your dog and have no control over what someone does (or doesn't do). The most you can hope for is that they're listening.
But they can't listen when everyone is bickering.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Just noticed this thead. Lucy needs some outdoors time in this 20 degree disgusting weather and it's going to get dark soon, so I'll give my input without having read anything.

I think most of us regulars and even a lot of the posters who don't post as much are pretty much here for one reason - the dogs. We all want what's best for these dogs, but we all have our own opinions. I try not to be rude when I post on sensitive subject, but maybe I come off that way sometimes, I really don't know. I try not to sugar coat, but I also know people have feelings.

I think the problem is when people are told things they don't want to hear. They come on here expecting to hear... "yeah! go breed your two dogs" or "Absolutely you should get two puppies together... perfect idea!" I just don't think those things are going to happen. Most of us feel pretty strongly about certain ways of breeding or raising dogs, so we say how we feel. People don't like it, so they storm off like little kids because they weren't told exactly what they wanted to hear. I think we all know the "why ask if you don't want to hear" thread. This kind of stuff happens all the time. This board would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything, I'd think. 

If you're going to ask a question, expect an honest answer. If you don't like it, too bad. I'm not going to call you an idiot for asking a question, there are no dumb questions no matter how repetitive they get, it's how you use and what you do with the information after you're told something. Some people storm off and don't return after a few posts, and some stick around.


----------



## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

I also think that sometimes members just glance over a thread and actually don't understand what they just read. And at the same time if it is because of a health problem the OP in their state of anguish over the situation may not have worded something just right and it is taken the wrong way. 

If it were a perfect world our beloved pets would not get sick and we all would be able to afford the best treatment for them that could be found. No one knows what kind of financial situation that a poster is in and to talk down to the OP for not being able to run to the vet every day is not right. I love my babies very much and a poster yesterday TRIED to down me for not returning to a vet on a consectutive day and that I was letting my pet suffer and that I was wrong. I wish that I was able to afford only the best for my babies but life has dealt us a bad hand and we have to deal with it the best that we can. I will not knowingly let any of my babies suffer, I would have them put down immediately. I guess what I am trying to say is that we all need to take in consideration that everyone is not financially in a position to run to the vet every day and to put them down for not doing it is wrong. 

I love this forum it has helped me a lot and it is one of the pleasures that I have left in life. So before hitting those keys think about how the person on the other end is going to be feeling after reading your post. Love to all,and thanks for helping each other for the pets that we all love.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I wonder what would happen if we all met in person to discuss this? Probably only one or two people would actually shout...everyone else would not want to offend others or be too shy to debate.

If one of us brought our obese german shepherd to this group meeting and asked us to critique its stack...what would happen?

Would we just raise eyebrows and look at eachother wide-eyed? Would someone stand up and say "Your dog is freaking fat". Would someone kindly say "I think ___ may need to lay off the treats"

Unfortunately, in real life, if someone went with option number 3, the owner would probably laugh it off and keep their dog fat.

Like I've said many times, my future mother in law has a morbidly obese dog that is overweight at 30 pounds...and it weights 67 pounds with a 36 inch waist. I have told everyone on this forum, my whole family, and all of my friends that the dog won't last another year. But do I tell his mother? H*** NO!! I'm not crazy. She likes me! If only she would join a beagle forum and someone would call her out on it. The internet helps with situations like that.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

http://i40.tinypic.com/nlvpn7.jpg <<Picture to match story. This is from a GOOD angle.

This is a normal one...


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> http://i40.tinypic.com/nlvpn7.jpg <<Picture to match story. This is from a GOOD angle.
> 
> This is a normal one...


I have a Beagle too. I recently moved out of my house and she still lives with my mother, and I've been trying for about two years to tell her that Freckles is overweight. It just goes in one ear and out the other. Luckily, I was able to switch her food to a good, low fat/calorie diet, and I go over there daily to walk/exercise her, but I've had no luck. Either they're sneaking lots of extra food/treats or my girl has a thyroid problem. She's getting a panel done next week, so I guess we'll find out the truth then!

Poor portly Beagles. They just can't help themselves!


----------



## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> Just noticed this thead. Lucy needs some outdoors time in this 20 degree disgusting weather and it's going to get dark soon, so I'll give my input without having read anything.
> 
> I think most of us regulars and even a lot of the posters who don't post as much are pretty much here for one reason - the dogs. We all want what's best for these dogs, but we all have our own opinions. I try not to be rude when I post on sensitive subject, but maybe I come off that way sometimes, I really don't know. I try not to sugar coat, but I also know people have feelings.
> 
> ...


 
:thumbup:This pretty much sums up what I was going to write.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I read that they are prone to being overweight! December 9-20 when I was here at her house, and since I got back New Years I have walked him TWICE every day when she was at work. She doesn't like him to walk right now because it is too cold and in the summer it is too hot. I just take him and we do a fast walk while Rocky basically runs in circles around us. Then we go to this field behind the house and I make him walk back and forth with me. He has no will to do anything except sleep anymore. Doesn't even play anymore  But since I've been walking him, he gets excited for walks and he can stand up without rolling back and forth!! I am very proud of that. However I can't help that he gets over 12+ Chicken/Bacon treats every day. Yesterday I counted...16 of them! The bag says only 1 a day for dogs under 50 pounds, 2 for over 50 pounds. He doesn't even eat dog food anymore so I can't help him that way. Their vet said he is healthy...doesn't want to lose clients. Not a good vet.


----------



## jesetta_1980 (Jun 12, 2011)

Not that it matters at this point, but I agree with the OP. I have been here for a couple of months now. Honestly, i have never been insulted for any questions I have. At the same time, I have a lot of questions I tend to avoid because of some of the post I have read. True enough, there are some people who write post and I have to ask myself why in the world they have a dog. I have seen just as many where the OP was being sincere. I use to get off this forum and think...wow, a lot of these people act like they were born with there knowledge on shepherds. Didn't they have to start somewhere? I'm just saying, what about the younger "generation." I personally would love to learn more about the breed from some of the people on here. It's just real unactractive a lot of the times. The funniest thing is, I'm on here everyday, several times a day and it's always the same people critizing. The same people have something pretty negative to say, in any post they get involved in unless it's one of there buddy's who also seems to act in this way. Just saying it sucks. Glad someone brought this up. The last post I read where this was the topic, the OP was critizied within a few post?


----------



## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I really do respect everyone's opinion on here. I enjoy reading other GSD owners stories, issues, and just random things. I learn something new everyday.

Sometimes even the newbie posters post some good advice. It's always interesting to me to see how everybody deals with a certain issues with their dogs.

I like to always give everyone the benefit of doubt. I truly don't think most people that didn't care would even be searching the Internet on GSD's. I think most are just uneducated. Just plain, simple, broke, and uneducated owners...like me. 

Most of the post I read.....most of the posters are polite. I think the problem comes b/c it's hard sometimes to understand the "tone" of a question or response. Some people seem to nitpick through certain people's post to find one little sentence. Maybe they really think it's offensive??/ I don't know. I think it's hard to speak on Internet talk like we would if we were sitting face to face. Hard to see a person's face expression when they are making what they think is a "funny"

I was basically called a liar on here once. I almost didn't come back....but then I thought about it....why let one post get under my skin? I've learned SO MUCH on this site. I would be doing a disservice to my dog's not to keep learning everything I could.

I am not an expert by any means. I reply to people that post giving my experience with my dogs. I may be wrong....but just maybe I am right....and just maybe that will help someone. I just try to help the best way I know how.

By the way...I let my dog's out unsupervised all the time and my oldest is overweight. My female shepherd is probably not what you would call beautiful and I can't get my oldest to take a walk. Also, I don't scoop up poop everyday and I let them lay on my couches and bed all the time. 

I just wanted to say...I really do love this forum.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm curious if anyone has considered actually sending a PM to someone when they have a question if are afraid they'd be BBQed for asking on the forum.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

jetscarbie said:


> I really do respect everyone's opinion on here. I enjoy reading other GSD owners stories, issues, and just random things. I learn something new everyday.
> 
> Sometimes even the newbie posters post some good advice. It's always interesting to me to see how everybody deals with a certain issues with their dogs.
> 
> ...


Good post and the last part made me laugh!!:blush:



Lilie said:


> I'm curious if anyone has considered actually sending a PM to someone when they have a question if are afraid they'd be BBQed for asking on the forum.


I haven't....however there was an occasion where I felt the OP's original post went so far off track so quickly, I did not want to comment on the thread, so I PM'ed them my experience with the issue. That way my comment did not get lost in the madness and no one felt the need to throw me into a mix I had no interest in participating in.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If one of us brought our obese german shepherd to this group meeting and asked us to critique its stack...what would happen?
> 
> Would we just raise eyebrows and look at eachother wide-eyed? Would someone stand up and say "Your dog is freaking fat". Would someone kindly say "I think ___ may need to lay off the treats"


I tell people almost daily that their dog is too fat. I try to find a diplomatic way to say it, while stressing the importance of joint and cardiovascular health, and also stressing how easy it is to actually get a dog to lose weight (most times all you have to do is FEED LESS, honestly). 

I'm not telling them their dog is overweight because I want to pick on them or be mean, it's because I honestly care about the dog's health--and in some cases, my OWN health, as I am the one who has to lift an obese dog into the tub!! 

Unfortunately, 90% of the time it goes in one ear and out the other.  Seriously, I had to turn a client away recently because his 70 lb. German Shorthair had ballooned to 120 lb and was so round that he could no longer turn around in my tub--physics just wouldn't allow it. This was after months of begging him to put the dog on a diet. In one ear...


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

OP, if it were possible to put a big red arrow pointing at this thread so that everyone could notice it and hopefully read it-that would have been great!


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well I worked all day and log in to find this is 9 pages long

Thank you all for keeping it civil, friendly and respectful.

I think Robin said it best with all of this 'stuff' going on, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it". 

Thanks


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I tell people almost daily that their dog is too fat. I try to find a diplomatic way to say it, while stressing the importance of joint and cardiovascular health, and also stressing how easy it is to actually get a dog to lose weight (most times all you have to do is FEED LESS, honestly).
> 
> I'm not telling them their dog is overweight because I want to pick on them or be mean, it's because I honestly care about the dog's health--and in some cases, my OWN health, as I am the one who has to lift an obese dog into the tub!!
> 
> Unfortunately, 90% of the time it goes in one ear and out the other.  Seriously, I had to turn a client away recently because his 70 lb. German Shorthair had ballooned to 120 lb and was so round that he could no longer turn around in my tub--physics just wouldn't allow it. This was after months of begging him to put the dog on a diet. In one ear...


Just something to think about. 

Would you tell your client they are fat. Would you tell them their kids are fat and you are only concerned about their health.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> well I worked all day and log in to find this is 9 pages long
> 
> Thank you all for keeping it civil, friendly and respectful.
> 
> ...


It's all about the delivery. While I love the internet & forums it's very easy for a point to come across the wrong way. We can't hear someones tone or see their body language so it's very easy to assume what they meant.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Just something to think about.
> 
> Would you tell your client they are fat. Would you tell them their kids are fat and you are only concerned about their health.


I get paid to tell my clients they are fat, how much fat they need to lose, how quickly they can lose it, and how we're going to go about it. Then I make them sweat. I love my job.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I get paid to tell my clients they are fat, how much fat they need to lose, how quickly they can lose it, and how we're going to go about it. Then I make them sweat. I love my job.


They come to you for that. They come to freestep to get their dogs groomed. Telling her clients they are fat is a good way to lose clients.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> They come to you for that. They come to freestep to get their dogs groomed. Telling her clients they are fat is a good way to lose clients.


:thumbup:


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Freestep said:


> I tell people almost daily that their dog is too fat. I try to find a diplomatic way to say it, while stressing the importance of joint and cardiovascular health, and also stressing how easy it is to actually get a dog to lose weight (most times all you have to do is FEED LESS, honestly).
> 
> I'm not telling them their dog is overweight because I want to pick on them or be mean, it's because I honestly care about the dog's health--and in some cases, my OWN health, as I am the one who has to lift an obese dog into the tub!!
> 
> Unfortunately, 90% of the time it goes in one ear and out the other.  Seriously, I had to turn a client away recently because his 70 lb. German Shorthair had ballooned to 120 lb and was so round that he could no longer turn around in my tub--physics just wouldn't allow it. This was after months of begging him to put the dog on a diet. In one ear...



I think you were the one who said you thought my dog looked a bit fat. Well, you will be pleased to know that I put him on a diet and he lost ten pounds, down from 95 lbs to 85 lbs.  And you were right, he was getting a bit soft. He's all muscle and bone now!


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I'm curious if anyone has considered actually sending a PM to someone when they have a question if are afraid they'd be BBQed for asking on the forum.


I have pmed,not necessarily b/c I thought i would get burnt but I felt that they would give me a good answer. I try to win over others to training and reputable breeders and other dog issues by sharing the stories of my unsucessful training,feeding and other 1st time dog owner stuff.Im not an expert on GSDs but I can let people know the things I wished I did and didnt.I have PMed people regarding some stuff and Ive had some really good info from Carmspack and others. I read alot more here then I post.actually I go on the Forum at work on my breaks and lunch.Its how I get away from my job.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Would you tell your client they are fat. Would you tell them their kids are fat and you are only concerned about their health.


No, because I'm a dog groomer, not a doctor, dietician, or personal trainer for humans. Even though I'm not a vet, I do help clients with their doggie health and hygiene: skin and coat, ears, eyes, toenails, etc. and I keep an eye out for anything suspect: dental issues, lumps, bumps, infections, etc. and inform the clients so they can get veterinary attention. And yes--obesity is a health issue too. I feel like I wouldn't be a good pet professional if I didn't bring it up. Some people don't even realize their pet is overweight (or has a lump, bump, infection, etc).

I'm honestly perplexed as to why people should be offended if someone tells them their pet is too fat. It's an easily fixable problem in most cases. And it's not like telling the person that THEY are fat, although some clients comment that their dog is fat because neither one of them is getting enough exercise.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> I think you were the one who said you thought my dog looked a bit fat. Well, you will be pleased to know that I put him on a diet and he lost ten pounds, down from 95 lbs to 85 lbs.  And you were right, he was getting a bit soft. He's all muscle and bone now!


Awesome! Congrats! You should post a photo of his new fit physique.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Freestep said:


> I'm honestly perplexed as to why people should be offended if someone tells them their pet is too fat. It's an easily fixable problem in most cases. And it's not like telling the person that THEY are fat, although some clients comment that their dog is fat because neither one of them is getting enough exercise.


I think people equate being told their dog is fat as being told their dog is ugly. It's not the same at all.

I've never once heard anyone tell another member that their dog is ugly. I've heard their dog is fat. I've told people here and in real life that their dogs need to lose weight. It's a serious health issue and a lot of times people just don't notice. Whats the saying... a mother's (or father's) love is blind. I think that's the case a lot of the time. People just don't realize... take Good Karma's recent post as a perfect example.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Just something to think about.
> 
> Would you tell your client they are fat. Would you tell them their kids are fat and you are only concerned about their health.


Sorry that made me laugh because....would you tell someone they were a bag of nerves due to bad breeding? Or that their parents were the equivalint of BYB's? I don't understand the problem with saying someones dog is a little heavy? I'd rather know if it were my dog........and yes I know Kaos is fat:blush:


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I think people equate being told their dog is fat as being told their dog is ugly. It's not the same at all.


Ohhhh... okay, I see. Lordy... totally not what is meant!! I always comment on how cute or beautiful my clients' dogs are, always pointing out their good features, and THEN if the dog is obese I will point out that their sweet pup will be much healthier and happier without some unnecessary baggage... and give them some tips on how to get that extra weight off. I always stress that it's totally do-able and within the clients' power, without any special diet food or supplements or anything like that, and that it will actually SAVE them money if the dog loses weight... both on dog food, and future vet bills.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

OK freestep. Considering your line of work I guess fat might be alright but I definitely would not go with ugly. "Your fat, ugly dog will definitely decrease your client base. 

mysweetkaos.

That's going to be my excuse for all my problems from now on. My parents were human BYB's. i can't help it I was the result of BYBreeding.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> OK freestep. Considering your line of work I guess fat might be alright but I definitely would not go with ugly. "Your fat, ugly dog will definitely decrease your client base.
> 
> mysweetkaos.
> 
> That's going to be my excuse for all my problems from now on. My parents were human BYB's. i can't help it I was the result of BYBreeding.


I feel your pain Andy...I too am the result of an accidental breeding between untitled parents

Candice


----------



## Frankly I'm Frank (Jan 2, 2012)

mysweetkaos said:


> I feel your pain Andy...I too am the result of an accidental breeding between untitled parents
> 
> Candice


oh no! me too!
Does that make all of our advice suspect?!


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mysweetkaos said:


> I feel your pain Andy...I too am the result of an accidental breeding between untitled parents
> 
> Candice


Mine didn't meet the temperament standard. On top of the breeding problem I wasn't socialized properly. Not to mentioned they did not use positive training methods.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> i can't help it I was the result of BYBreeding.


I believe there are laws against that?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh the twists and the turns. 

What I think is ok for the breeder to discuss:
Skin and coat condition
Toenail length and condition
eyes and ears
anal glands
doggy breath/teeth
muscle/fat -- whether the dog is overweight or underweight
bugs
And, behavior while being groomed.

I figure you take your dog to the groomer, you want them to look and feel healthy.
If there is something that is making them look or feel less healthy, the groomer might make suggestions or comments. I don't have any issue with that. It is up to me to choose to accept their advice or act on it.

Now the lady that dropped my dog off the table while she was tied by the neck so that she was hanging there and two other groomers hand to lift her back up on the table, and then the lady had the audacity to tell me she was scared. I watched all this through the window, I watched groomers and customers walking back and forth many of them brushing by her -- tight corners. What she did when the lady took her back to bathe her I could not see, she said she just lay in the tub, well. I have to say that she seemed in a crappy mood when I dropped the dog off, and the dog probably picked up on that, but I saw no indication of her being scared at all. So after taking a lap around the store, I went back and told her that maybe my dog was scared because she dropped her off the table. She told me that the dog jumped. 

So, what da ya think. If you put a noose around a dog's neck and then elevate them on a table, do ya let them fall or jump off of that table??? (She was across the room handling the phone.)

But whatever, she used to breed GSDs and she never saw one that was so scared -- that is a good way to lose customers.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Interesting thread.  There are just too many people I'd like to quote!

I've been on both sides of the proverbial aisle. I've been attacked, I've been the rude jerk at times. I never intended to be a rude jerk. There are some issues that rile me up and I'm sure everyone has "those" issues.

What I've also found -- and have not liked -- is when someone responds to a post with a judgment about your dog that, in reality, can't truly be made based on the limited info. And not only that, they make the statement and that's their post. Not a suggestion, or advice on how to work with the issue.. just (what I call) a "drive-by" judgment.

I've posted on some behavioral issues as Bailey is growing up. On almost every one, someone has to come along and say, "dogs with poor nerves will do this/that." Okay. Terrific. Thank you. However, completely useless. Sure, go ahead and tell me that... but if you want to honestly help, offer suggestions/advice and/or info. 

On the other hand, having that pointed out has helped in a way because it assists me in my approach to training him. He is not the nervebag mess that many might have made me believe, though, and I'm very pleased to say that. I just didn't need *all* those drive by nerve judgments. It was overkill.

I was once slaughtered  when I used some wording on a thread... when I was honestly only trying to be very specific and provide lots of details. It actually hurt my feelings quite a bit, because I had ZERO bad intentions. If you slaughter me after I've been blunt / sarcastic, etc -- ok, I probably asked for it... but that particular time, I had no "evil intent" and it did really bother me to get the reactions I got.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I think people shouldn't offer unsolicited advice, and then be surprised when a person is offended by it. And that goes for forums as well as face-to-face encounters.

*I leave the judging of my dogs weight to the vet, as that is his job to help me keep my dog healthy. I would take personal offense to the groomer bringing it up-especially if me and my vet do not agree with the groomers opinion-or commenters on a forum for that matter.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> OK freestep. Considering your line of work I guess fat might be alright but I definitely would not go with ugly. "Your fat, ugly dog will definitely decrease your client base.


Yes I believe it would.  I don't think I have ever used the word "ugly" when referring to a client's dog (at least not to their face). I do have a client that brings in a lot of rescues, and some of those dogs look kinda ugly upon arrival, but it isn't their fault. Usually, once they are cleaned up and groomed, they're darn cute! 

But even if a dog is ugly, the dog doesn't know it or care; he thinks he's gorgeous, and he ought to be treated like the most beautiful show-winning dog on the planet. 

Heck, they even have an "Ugly Dog" contest every year. We stumbled upon one once. Some of the dogs were so ugly they were cute, and this parade of "ugly" dogs contained some participants I thought were downright adorable.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

chelle said:


> Interesting thread.  There are just too many people I'd like to quote!
> 
> I've been on both sides of the proverbial aisle. I've been attacked, I've been the rude jerk at times. I never intended to be a rude jerk. There are some issues that rile me up and I'm sure everyone has "those" issues.
> 
> ...


I think that is part of the problem too. Normally, I take each post as a whole unit. I do not look at other posts by that person and temper my post dependent about the entire feeling for the person. But I have noticed that there are people who practically chase you down to go after you. Say one negative thing about, say, pit bulls, and you're toast forever. The Good News is that we no longer have politics, because people could not keep the politics in the politics thread but let their negative feelings about people due to their politics seep into other forums. 

But even without the politics threads, there are personality conflicts, and sometimes people will go after other people. Someone said on one of these posts on this thread that we are all adults here. Well that is not really true, there may be people under the age of adulthood on the site. And there are others that may be less mature in how the act toward other posters. I continue to post on this site because it is jumping. There are many threads about many topics and a LOT of people. This means some of them are going to be less mature, some will be rubbed the wrong way, some will rub people the wrong way. But overall, there is a huge community of individuals who love dogs. We can generally overlook petty squabbles for the overall picture.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This thread had the ability for everyone to purge their personal issues within the board in a postive way. And so far everyone has posted courteously. 
I've found the board has ebbed and flowed with positive/negative and the change of seasons. This time of year, it seems there is always more traffic/so the odds of everyone getting along is not great.(stress is also high during this particular season)
Still with all the newbs/older posters everyone from different walks, bloodlines it gels fairly well considering.
I give thanks to the Admin and Mods for their time spent keeping the peace. :toasting:


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> This thread had the ability for everyone to purge their personal issues within the board in a postive way. And so far everyone has posted courteously.
> I've found the board has ebbed and flowed with positive/negative and the change of seasons. This time of year, it seems there is always more traffic/so the odds of everyone getting along is not great.(stress is also high during this particular season)
> Still with all the newbs/older posters everyone from different walks, bloodlines it gels fairly well considering.
> I give thanks to the Admin and Mods for their time spent keeping the peace. :toasting:


Wait a minute Jane. 
Who said anything nice about the mods. or admins.?
Lets not get carried away with niceties here.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

chelle said:


> Not a suggestion, or advice on how to work with the issue.. just (what I call) a "drive-by" judgment.


Drive by judgement...lol, good observation.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> Wait a minute Jane.
> Who said anything nice about the mods. or admins.?
> Lets not get carried away with niceties here.


I just did!!! But they tend to lock threads right when they get to the peak, just like a season finale....


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> Now the lady that dropped my dog off the table while she was tied by the neck so that she was hanging there and two other groomers hand to lift her back up on the table, and then the lady had the audacity to tell me she was scared.


How did she drop the dog off the table? Was she holding up the dog's rear end and then just let it fall off the side? I am having a hard time picturing how I would "drop" a dog off a table. I have picked up a dog's foot, then let go of it, assuming the dog would put his foot back down in the same spot... and instead he put it off the end of the table. If I wasn't right there to keep the dog upright, he could fall off and it might look like I "dropped" him.



> So, what da ya think. If you put a noose around a dog's neck and then elevate them on a table, do ya let them fall or jump off of that table??? (She was across the room handling the phone.)


Personally, I don't answer the phone while I'm working on a dog, and I don't leave them alone on the table! If I have a dog that's kind of floppy, or has weak hips, or is dancing around, I'll use a cinch that goes around the belly for extra security. No one is falling, jumping, or being dropped off the table on my watch! 

Oh, and now I'm wondering... is it considered offensive or insulting if I tell a client their dog was "scared"? People ask me how their dog behaved while grooming, and I answer honestly. Some first-timers, puppies, rescues, or dogs that are just plain scared of everything can be scared when they come in, or scared to get wet, or of the clippers, or whatever. I always tell the client about their pet's behavior, whether it's good, or if it's something that needs to be worked on. I think it's important for the owner to know, so that if there are any issues, they can help with desensitizing if possible. But it hadn't occurred to me that some might find that insulting, as I've never had anyone act insulted. Embarrassed, sometimes!


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I just did!!! But they tend to lock threads right when they get to the peak, just like a season finale....


Yeah. I was just getting interested in the New England Large dog breeders thread but a couple of people who couldn't control themselves got it locked.

I'm not a name dropper though.:laugh:


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Oh, and now I'm wondering... is it considered offensive or insulting if I tell a client their dog was "scared"? *People ask me *how their dog behaved while grooming, and I answer honestly. Some first-timers, puppies, rescues, or dogs that are just plain scared of everything can be scared when they come in, or scared to get wet, or of the clippers, or whatever. I always tell the client about their pet's behavior, whether it's good, or if it's something that needs to be worked on. I think it's important for the owner to know, so that if there are any issues, they can help with desensitizing if possible. But it hadn't occurred to me that some might find that insulting, as I've never had anyone act insulted. Embarrassed, sometimes!


Probably not offensive since they ASKED you how their dog behaved. Some may even ask about their dogs weight. If someone asks then honesty is the best policy-they asked after all.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I'm not a name dropper though


took it to a pm and all is well. :laugh:


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Frankly I'm Frank said:


> oh no! me too!
> Does that make all of our advice suspect?!


Yes it does...but we seem to be the majority so it's ok



Jack's Dad said:


> Mine didn't meet the temperament standard. On top of the breeding problem I wasn't socialized properly. Not to mentioned they did not use positive training methods.


I hear you on those...and add to the list sire/dam were way too young and sometimes bred back to back....it's no wonder I'm a nerve bag. Andy...you often make me laugh...but I just noticed it's 9 o'clock, so off to K-mart I go


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> Oh, and now I'm wondering... is it considered offensive or insulting if I tell a client their dog was "scared"? People ask me how their dog behaved while grooming, and I answer honestly. Some first-timers, puppies, rescues, or dogs that are just plain scared of everything can be scared when they come in, or scared to get wet, or of the clippers, or whatever. I always tell the client about their pet's behavior, whether it's good, or if it's something that needs to be worked on. I think it's important for the owner to know, so that if there are any issues, they can help with desensitizing if possible. But it hadn't occurred to me that some might find that insulting, as I've never had anyone act insulted. Embarrassed, sometimes!


Na, you should be able to tell them how the dog behaved, no problem. The dog does not like the dryer, ok. The dog was a little nervous about their toenails, fine. That kind of thing is fine. 

It is like the internet, it is how they deliver. 

If they tell you that they used to raise GSDs and she is the the most fearful German Shepherd she ever saw, _then_ you can be upset, especially when she let your dog hang herself and did not bother to mention it, and the dog had been shown in the ring with no problems, had a CGC no problems, had a title already with no problems, and was groomed by multiple people without ever an issue, AND you see half a dozen people milling by her, going back and forth with dogs in their arms, some of them actually brushing by her with no problems.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> *I leave the judging of my dogs weight to the vet, as that is his job to help me keep my dog healthy. I would take personal offense to the groomer bringing it up-especially if me and my vet do not agree with the groomers opinion-or commenters on a forum for that matter.


I'm genuinely curious--why do you find this hurtful? Is it like, as another poster said, "overweight" is like saying "ugly"? Or is it insulting because it implies you don't know what is best for your dog, or aren't taking care of him properly? 

If I told you your dog had a yucky-smelling ear with lots of moist brown goo in it, would that be offensive? I suppose I could make it offensive if I made it sound like you weren't taking good care of your dog. But believe me--people who don't care about their dogs don't take them to groomers in the first place, and I don't ever--EVER--try to make people feel bad about a health issue that's gone unnoticed (even a little extra weight). That's what groomers are there for, IMO--to be another set of eyes, going over the dog with a fine-toothed comb (pun intended) and seeing things that the owner might not be able to... lumps, foxtails, infections, etc. It's part of my job to alert the owner, as I see it.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Groomers usually see a dog more regularly than a vet, so they know if the dog is gaining/maintaining or losing. Unless you go to the vet every 6-8 weeks, I'd probably listen to my groomers observations on coat/skin and body condition.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mysweetkaos said:


> Yes it does...but we seem to be the majority so it's ok
> 
> 
> 
> I hear you on those...and add to the list sire/dam were way too young and sometimes bred back to back....it's no wonder I'm a nerve bag. Andy...you often make me laugh...but I just noticed it's 9 o'clock, so off to K-mart I go


Please don't go to Kmart at 9.00PM. There will be someone there selling New Years pups out front.

Only untitled nerve bags go to kmart that late.


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

selzer said:


> ... But I have noticed that there are people who practically chase you down to go after you. Say one negative thing about, say, *********, and you're toast forever.....
> 
> ...We can generally overlook petty squabbles for the overall picture.


 That one wasn't lost on me, but I won't beat a dead horse.  And that is actually a strength of this board. I've observed squabbles, been in the middle of them... they work themselves out (usually! or get shut down!) and it is back to life as we know it soon after. Most people just move on. Sure, some people harbor dislikes for others, but that's no different than in real life, I suppose. As long as it doesn't disrupt the basic integrity of a thread. 



Freestep said:


> I'm genuinely curious--why do you find this hurtful? Is it like, as another poster said, "overweight" is like saying "ugly"? Or is it insulting because it implies you don't know what is best for your dog, or aren't taking care of him properly?
> 
> If I told you your dog had a yucky-smelling ear with lots of moist brown goo in it, would that be offensive? I suppose I could make it offensive if I made it sound like you weren't taking good care of your dog. But believe me--people who don't care about their dogs don't take them to groomers in the first place, and I don't ever--EVER--try to make people feel bad about a health issue that's gone unnoticed (even a little extra weight). That's what groomers are there for, IMO--to be another set of eyes, going over the dog with a fine-toothed comb (pun intended) and seeing things that the owner might not be able to... lumps, foxtails, infections, etc. It's part of my job to alert the owner, as I see it.


To just interject here - I personally would not be offended, depending on how I was approached. I have an overweight dog. (my oldest) I know she is overweight and I'm working on it. She's brushed out every few days and even in just a few days, weird things come up. Gunk in the ears, where they'd been clear... a knot in the tail... various things. So I'd be very happy to have those things pointed out to me. I just wouldn't want someone to be nasty about it, and make me feel as though I was being a bad owner because I hadn't caught it.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

chelle said:


> She's brushed out every few days and even in just a few days, weird things come up. Gunk in the ears, where they'd been clear... a knot in the tail... various things. So I'd be very happy to have those things pointed out to me. I just wouldn't want someone to be nasty about it, and make me feel as though I was being a bad owner because I hadn't caught it.


Exactly. Do you think my own dogs ever get groomed?  I could be missing all kinds of things on my own dogs, so I'm not one to judge. Heck, I have one cat who has chronically dirty ears. He's never had mites or an ear infection, just makes a lot of wax. So I clean his ears, and the dirt comes back within a few days. I noticed that it didn't make much difference whether I cleaned his ears once a week or once a month.... so he runs around with dirty ears the majority of the time. Since he hasn't been prone to ear infections, I just haven't worried about it. I am sure a groomer or vet will take me to task for it, shame on me, I'm a groomer and I can't even keep my own animals clean! 

But it's like I always say, the cobbler's son has no shoes...


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I'm curious if anyone has considered actually sending a PM to someone when they have a question if are afraid they'd be BBQed for asking on the forum.


I have considered it.. haven't done it (yet)


----------



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Exactly. Do you think my own dogs ever get groomed?  I could be missing all kinds of things on my own dogs, so I'm not one to judge. Heck, I have one cat who has chronically dirty ears. He's never had mites or an ear infection, just makes a lot of wax. So I clean his ears, and the dirt comes back within a few days. I noticed that it didn't make much difference whether I cleaned his ears once a week or once a month.... so he runs around with dirty ears the majority of the time. Since he hasn't been prone to ear infections, I just haven't worried about it. I am sure a groomer or vet will take me to task for it, shame on me, I'm a groomer and I can't even keep my own animals clean!
> 
> But it's like I always say, the cobbler's son has no shoes...


Well, you are the one on the fore front, so to speak. The dog I was talking about has a double coat and is very crazy hairy. Weird developments can happen in that coat if you're not on a very regular grooming schedule. I've never taken her to a groomer, just preferred to do it myself... but there were times I was lazy and didn't catch skin irritations and such as early as I should have. VERY bad owner there. But, as I have done all this dog's grooming over the years, I do understand how, when you start getting down into the coat, things appear that you won't see otherwise. (Non-gsd that I'm referring to.) The older she gets, the thicker her coat becomes, so if I'm not vigilent with the combing out, knots/balls, etc can easily develop and they're a nightmare. Then once you get those out, you actually see the true skin condition. I'm sure that is just par for the course for you as a groomer, though.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Boards can be rather acerbic. That's the nature of the beast. 

Ironically, "motherly" style reminders chastising others regarding their manners seem less than diplomatic. Pleas for diplomacy and tact phrased with more craft and less cliches may be more successful. [Diane, I am referring to the initial post.]

Now, what the heck is this "united community" about? I don't recall the board ever being a "united community" -- It's a Discussion Board! No pledge of allegiance was ever demanded.

Acerbically, 
Middle


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

middleofnowhere said:


> Boards can be rather acerbic. That's the nature of the beast.
> 
> Ironically, "motherly" style reminders chastising others regarding their manners seem less than diplomatic. Pleas for diplomacy and tact phrased with more craft and less cliches may be more successful. [Diane, I am referring to the initial post.]
> 
> ...


I like the way you think (and write).


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Awesome! Congrats! You should post a photo of his new fit physique.


I'll get some new pictures and dig up that thread so you can see the difference. I can send you a PM with a link to the thread. 

And I would never take a comment about my dog's weight as being a way of saying my dog is ugly. I know how gorgeous both of my dogs are. They have a lot of fans on Facebook.  But Freestep's judgement on my dog's weight was on a thread I started about the subject, basically me asking if my dog was too heavy. So the advice she gave was solicited, and quite frankly I had already half-formed the same opinion, so her judgement was not completely unexpected. 

I guess I might have taken it differently if the comment had come completely out of the blue, and I was totally unaware of a weight problem. But I can CHOOSE how I am going to respond to such a comment. I have the luxury of time while on the Internet. I don't need to shoot off a reply instantly. I think if we encounter a post that offends us in some way, it might help diffuse the situation if we took a few moments to think about the post and all the ways in can be interpreted. Often, our first reaction can be based on having read something too quickly, or totally misinterpreting the intent (I have been guilty of this).

Most of the time, if I think about a reply for long enough, I get bored and say to heck with it, do I really care to participate in this discussion with people I will never meet and don't really care about? (Not everyone here, some of you are friends for life!!) Gotta have some perspective in everything.

And if all else fails, throw in a random poop joke.


----------



## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Good Karma: I agree; we can choose how we respond to remarks. I took offense at a poster that said I hijacked a thread (was not my intent). I realize now that pales in comparison to all the great advice I've been getting.

I think if people chose how to respond to remarks (on this forum, and in life in general), we'd be so much better off.


----------



## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Okay well here is something funny. Freestep wasn't the one who said my dog looked heavy! I don't know why I thought it was her! So I guess there is another way we can make mistakes. But anyway, Freestep, if you want to see Niko (do you care at this point, lol!) Here is his thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/161035-niko-monster-pic-heavy.html#post2354674


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Please don't go to Kmart at 9.00PM. There will be someone there selling New Years pups out front.
> 
> Only untitled nerve bags go to kmart that late.


:toasting:


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

As to the mentioning your dog is overweight....I wouldn't mind as I've stated before. Funny thing is Kaos had put on close to 17 lbs and my vet never mentioned it. My friend came over and asked if he'd been putting on some weight...I hadn't noticed since I look at him every day.....and sure enough!!! So it doesn't bother me at all. More eyes looking out for my dogs health is never a bad thing, in my experience.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

How about this? Instead of assuming or giving sarcastic comments when someone asks for help, you actually try to HELP!
If you have questions before you can give advice, ask. There is no reason to get snarky and make assumptions in order to make the person feel like a "bad guy".
Nobody is perfect, NOBODY! 
I really don't blame people for never coming back for help. It's sad!


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> *And I would never take a comment about my dog's weight as being a way of saying my dog is ugly.*


I will clarify that Freestep is not the person who made this comment. And I will go on to say that this comment was not directed towards me or my dog. But I was offended for the owner of a beautiful dog-whom to my knowledge never came back to this board again, and what offended me was that during the course of this person's dog being attacked for being "overweight" which even a poster on this forum who is much esteemed here stated that the dog was not-but a small group would not be called off from this newbie and then someone stated something along the lines of-if you post pictures of your fat and ugly dog then….blah, blah, blah. Well grouping the 2 words together especially when responding to this persons post-was in my opinion equal to stating that fat=ugly. That is just very rude and I dare say that You probably would take offense to a comment about your dogs weight if it was put like that.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

One thing I've noticed is the people who join, all excited about their new puppy and mentions they found the puppy on CL or a BYB and someone will basically say that was a dumb thing to do.. and follow it up with "can't do anything about that now". I know I was told that and I honestly felt defeated for quite some time after that, like there was no hope & no future for the dog. It's like telling someone that their dog isn't worth them posting on this board because it's not good enough.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I will clarify that Freestep is not the person who made this comment. And I will go on to say that this comment was not directed towards me or my dog. But I was offended for the owner of a beautiful dog-whom to my knowledge never came back to this board again, and what offended me was that during the course of this person's dog being attacked for being "overweight" which even a poster on this forum who is much esteemed here stated that the dog was not-but a small group would not be called off from this newbie and then someone stated something along the lines of-if you post pictures of your fat and ugly dog then….blah, blah, blah. Well grouping the 2 words together especially when responding to this persons post-was in my opinion equal to stating that fat=ugly. That is just very rude and I dare say that You probably would take offense to a comment about your dogs weight if it was put like that.


I have to say if that happened that was horrible and uncalled for and yes that is much different context than someone mentioning it out of concern.


----------



## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Weight is a very sensitive topic, for humans as well as dogs. I think it's hard to be diplomatic about it.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Kittilicious said:


> One thing I've noticed is the people who join, all excited about their new puppy and mentions they found the puppy on CL or a BYB and someone will basically say that was a dumb thing to do.. and follow it up with "can't do anything about that now". I know I was told that and I honestly felt defeated for quite some time after that, like there was no hope & no future for the dog. It's like telling someone that their dog isn't worth them posting on this board because it's not good enough.


Agreed. I knew nothing about GSD's and consequently purchased mine from a non-reputable breeder. I was told once that I should have educated myself before buying my dog-that there is the internet and plenty other resources out there. Stupid, stupid, me is how that greater-than-thou commenter made me feel. Oh-and another thing I have walked away from a thread feeling is that my boy should never have been born because he doesn't meet the breed standard-and his AKC papers are basically garbage because he is too big! All these perfect people and GSD's around-I almost Googled for a forum that was for the stupid GSD owner and her non-breed compliant German Shepherd!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Lilie said:


> I'm curious if anyone has considered actually sending a PM to someone when they have a question if are afraid they'd be BBQed for asking on the forum.


I get them sometimes, not sure if it's happens more to moderators or not...

Usually they are great questions though! :wild:


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Agreed. I knew nothing about GSD's and consequently purchased mine from a non-reputable breeder. I was told once that I should have educated myself before buying my dog-that there is the internet and plenty other resources out there. Stupid, stupid, me is how that greater-than-thou commenter made me feel. Oh-and another thing I have walked away from a thread feeling is that my boy should never have been born because he doesn't meet the breed standard-and his AKC papers are basically garbage because he is too big! All these perfect people and GSD's around-I almost Googled for a forum that was for the stupid GSD owner and her non-breed compliant German Shepherd!


If you find that forum, let me know. It is sad that people get that reaction. I think most probably have good intention of educating, but it doesn't come off that way. In a way I am glad I didn't find this forum a long time ago....because I think too I may have been raked over the coals about his breeding and that would have kept me from gaining a lot of valuable info. By the time I joined Kaos was almost 9 and how he was acquired made no difference to anyone.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I get them sometimes, not sure if it's happens more to moderators or not...
> 
> Usually they are great questions though! :wild:


I've gotten them too, but I can only think of one person (and this was quite a while ago, the person hasn't been active here in over a year) who did it because they didn't want to post her question publicly. 

I've had people read a post of mine and PM me for more details, and I've had people PM me about some pretty basic stuff. With the latter, I usually answer the question, but suggest that they start a thread so they can get additional responses since there are always a broad range of ideas and experiences from our other members that they could benefit from as well. My opinion is just, well, MY opinion.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I think it's interesting how people will fight to the death over some topics... and not be helpful really to anyone.

While other new members come to this forum specifically needing help and support and are IGNORED entirely. While at the same time there are battles and snarking going on all over the board.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/173890-not-really-eating-well.html is a link showing this....

With the 'actions speak louder than words' and people saying they are here to help and be nice.... may be good for us to all keep an eye on the newbies to welcome them here. It's a bit disheartening to see how few new members come on and are brave enough to introduce themselves in the Introductions & Welcome Mat - German Shepherd Dog Forums let alone then see them disappear after getting few greetings.

As well as also finding the new posts (I always use 'Quick Links/Today's Posts') with few or no responses so we can respond and give some assistance, particularly for the newbies so they don't feel ignored and won't bother to post or even return to this forum again.


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Lilie said:


> I'm curious if anyone has considered actually sending a PM to someone when they have a question if are afraid they'd be BBQed for asking on the forum.





MaggieRoseLee said:


> I get them sometimes, not sure if it's happens more to moderators or not...
> 
> Usually they are great questions though! :wild:


I've done it and I have received some PMs (before even being a moderator).


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yeah, I've gotten to where all I post in the new puppy threads is "What a cute puppy! Please post more pics!" or something similar. The exception is if I _know_ the person got the puppy from a certain breeder, I might ask who his/her parents are.


----------



## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> While other new members come to this forum specifically needing help and support and are IGNORED entirely. While at the same time there are battles and snarking going on all over the board.


I am an admin on a general discussion forum and this is my biggest complaint. People will join up, post something and not get a reply, then other members wonder where they went. 
I always use the example of a forum being like a big room. If you walk into the room filled with a bunch of people and nobody turns to look at you and/or say anything to you, especially when you say something to the entire room - are you going to stay in that room or walk out? Or, if you walk up to someone in that room and ask a question and they are rude to you.... are you going to continue talking to them? Of course you wouldn't. You would walk out of the room, shut the door and never go back in.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Since I won't post here when I have a problem, I usually ask one of the GSD friends I know from another forum. There are several who I have a great bond with and we're friends on Facebook. I have asked via pm to some here but it was when I had a question regarding the coat on a puppy my friend was looking to get.

I know if I ask a question to my GSD pals, via Facebook, they will not judge and actually help. It happens all the time. They will be frank as well if I am not doing something right, but they'll tell me in the right way.

Let me give you an example as to why I don't post any problems I may have. This happened to me on another GSD forum when Gunner (my first GSD) was just a puppy.
I asked regarding a biting problem (typical problem). The first or second response smacked of sarcasm and pretty much told me I was an idiot for letting him roam free in the house (which he wasn't, just in a designated area). How on earth is that beneficial to me?
The last time I ever posted a problem I swore never again. Gunner was having tummy issues. I had a vet appt scheduled but asked if anyone knew what the problem could be.
I got, no lie, at least 7 or 8 diagnosis's and everyone of them swore they were right. I took him to the vet who diagnosed the problem and gave me meds.
Well, let me tell you, all heck broke loose. "my vet is an idiot", "nope, he's wrong", "get a second opinion" and my fave "get a new vet"!
Guess what? My vet was right and Gunner was fine within a few days.
Go figure!
It left a sour taste in my mouth.Why is it that someone can't admit they are wrong? 
I've also gotten conflicting advice. One says, do it this way, another says, no that's wrong, do it THIS way.
Then they get mad when you don't do what they say. 
It's very confusing when you're a new GSD owner and you can't even ask for help without people jumping on their high horses to call you an idiot.
I like it here, for the most part. There are a ton of experienced GSD owners here who give good solid advice without resorting to making someone feel like an idiot.


----------



## Rua (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm a GSD newbie, so I kinda feel my opinion doesn't hold a lot of weight here, since I have a lot to learn. That being said, here's my two cents on this topic:

The internet world of blogging/comments/forums has bred a certain type of attitude in people where real life social skills are being replaced with the quick and blunt retaliation that has become the norm in Forum territory. Even people who were raised to have good manners can come off sounding balshy.

It doesn't make it right, but it's the way things have gone. We all can be guilty of coming off rude at times - especially online where minor differences in what we type can make all the difference. 

So to leave you all with a little laugh - I thought I'd share these two cartoons with you:

Capslock on VS capslock off - The Oatmeal
With a smiley face VS without a smiley face - The Oatmeal


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Oh-and another thing I have walked away from a thread feeling is that my boy should never have been born because he doesn't meet the breed standard-and his AKC papers are basically garbage because he is too big!


I admit I haven't read every thread, but I have never seen anyone say anything like that. What I have read (and tend to agree with) is that GSD breeders ought not to be breeding *for* larger than standard size. Of course, that does not mean that every pup that pops out bigger than expected "shouldn't be born" or that their papers are "garbage". Are you sure this isn't YOUR interpretation of something that was said? 

I've noticed people tend to embellish and twist others' words to make them sound worse than they are, or to make the meaning completely different than what was intended, and then they totally run with it. This happened to me recently in a thread where a poster asked for thoughts and opinions, I told her mine (politely I thought), and she snapped back with an extremely twisted version of what I said, in order to change the meaning to something horrible, so that I appeared a monster for having said it. It happens on internet forums all the time; when people feel offended, they have to demonize whomever offended them, in order to justify their feelings. 

But wouldn't it be easier if, instead of assuming the horrible, you could check in with the poster and say "Could you clarify what you mean by that?"

And then if the poster does indeed clarify with something horrible, you know to put them on ignore, as they have nothing constructive to contribute.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

So true. I have kind of a dry, sideways sense of humor and I'll post something that I intend to be funny but later I'm wondering, "Did they understand that was meant to be a joke?" "Is someone going to get mad and insulted because I didn't put a laughing smiley face?"


----------



## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I followed this advise today and didn't say a word.

Not that I've had problems with my dog lately, but if I did I really don't think I will post them here anymore looking for advise. There are a few members who offer no advise but rather attack every single word said, quoting and highlight or underlining words, picking on the way an issue is being described vs the issue itself.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Good_Karma said:


> Okay well here is something funny. Freestep wasn't the one who said my dog looked heavy! I don't know why I thought it was her! So I guess there is another way we can make mistakes. But anyway, Freestep, if you want to see Niko (do you care at this point, lol!) Here is his thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...61035-niko-monster-pic-heavy.html#post2354674


Well, it sounds like something I would have said, since I am used to telling clients their dogs are overweight.  Niko is beautiful... even though I'm not usually a fan of ASL's, he is drop dead gorgeous!


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Emoore said:


> So true. I have kind of a dry, sideways sense of humor and I'll post something that I intend to be funny but later I'm wondering, "Did they understand that was meant to be a joke?" "Is someone going to get mad and insulted because I didn't put a laughing smiley face?"


Even when you put in a smiley, they can still go to town on you! I just had a poster direct a point-by-point rant at me, when I had posted a newspaper story and a few quotes. Quotes--from OTHER people. Not even my words! My only comment was three tongue-in-cheek words and a smiley face.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

This is an issue that comes up in almost every forum I've ever been a member of. 

I try to use the "you catch more flies with honey" attitude. I am a member of a breed specific forum that is very intense (I might even call it "harsh"). There are NO niceties (no pictures, no PMs, etc.). If certain topics/questions are posted, the OP is going to be crucified, no ifs, ands or buts about it.

Example: someone came and posted about their dog biting their child in the face, and asked for advice. The OP was definitely doing some things wrong that had led to the bite. The child was autistic, and the mother said he was difficult to control because of his condition. The responses from people were HORRENDOUS. They went something like this:

"You are an IDIOT! You do not DESERVE to own a [insert breed here] You don't even deserve to own a pet ROCK!"

"Forget about euthing the DOG, euth the CHILD if you can't control him." (honest to god response)

And it went on, and on, and ON.

I jumped in and said that it would've been better to say something like, "I'm sorry to hear that your child was bit. Here are some things you want to keep in mind..." and then list your advice, whether it be ideas on how to properly maintain a house with a dog and a child, ideas on trainers, or even a recommendation that the dog needs to be euthed or rehomed. My point was that the OP would be more likely to listen to someone treating them respectfully rather than someone starting their post with insults (or sarcasm).

Guess what happened? I was crucified. LOL. I made two major errors: 1) I was a newbie, and 2) my advice differed from the norm. Basically, their point was that they see a zillion threads just like that one and "no one ever listens." Gee, I wonder why?

I haven't seen anything that extreme happen here, but I do see a lot of GOOD advice delivered in a very negative fashion that will likely make the OP get their hackles up and ignore the good advice as a result.

Regarding smileys, etc., I have seen people use smileys and cute emoticons as a license to insult someone. "It's okay, I basically called them an idiot, but I used a smiley!" Don't get me wrong, smileys can help a lot... but they also can be like a slap in the face. (I recall a thread not too long ago where a person ended EVERY rude and condescending post with a "Thank you" and a . I have never wanted to reach through my computer screen and slap anyone as much as I did in that thread. 

Same goes for anything beginning with, "I'm not trying to be rude, but..." That statement basically tells me that the person KNOWS they're going to be rude, but are going to go ahead and say it anyway. They think by saying something like, "I don't want to offend you, but..." that means the other person doesn't have the right to get offended.

A hot topic on dog forums is always BYBs... people coming on and posting that they're going to breed their dog for [insert ridiculous reason here]. I have a standard response, that varies depending on the reason. Example: many people want to breed their dog because they want another one just like him. In that case, I'd start my post with, "Your dog really sounds fantastic, and I can see from her pictures that she really is a nice looking dog. However, before you decide to breed her, there are a few things you might want to consider..." and then I go on and list whatever reasons for not breeding I feel the person will most likely respond to (in that case, I would usually use the "your dog might die during whelping" argument.

The person is either going to listen, or they aren't. I think that there is a better chance that they would listen to an argument framed in that manner than if I were to say, "OMG! Please don't breed your dog! That would be WRONG and STUPID! Do you know how many dogs are dying in shelters???" The fact that dogs are dying in shelters is TRUE and is a valid argument, but the manner in which it is presented is important, because, let's face it, most BYB wannabes do not believe that would EVER happen to their puppies.

Okay... there's my (more than) 2 cents.


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

I totally agree with the title of this one.
I try to understand the concept that typed language doesn't translate well. Also, some people who join in and ask for advice are usually under some high stress situations.
Aggression or illness.

Why would you castigate some poor person under duress about the way that they live with their dog or training or lack of?
I dunno, I just feel like it's kicking someone when they are down, I guess.

Some folks are just so flawless with their dog handling I guess that gives them the right to act like that. Or, they live in a bubble and have never seen the other side of the street.

Atticus Finch: "You never know a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes"


Since I'm having some problems conveying how I feel about this stuff should I throw my simile in now?
How 'bout this one......:gsdhead:


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Rott-n-GSDs, Excellent post!


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> Regarding smileys, etc., I have seen people use smileys and cute emoticons as a license to insult someone. "It's okay, I basically called them an idiot, but I used a smiley!" Don't get me wrong, smileys can help a lot... but they also can be like a slap in the face. (I recall a thread not too long ago where a person ended EVERY rude and condescending post with a "Thank you" and a . I have never wanted to reach through my computer screen and slap anyone as much as I did in that thread.
> 
> Same goes for anything beginning with, "I'm not trying to be rude, but..." That statement basically tells me that the person KNOWS they're going to be rude, but are going to go ahead and say it anyway. They think by saying something like, "I don't want to offend you, but..." that means the other person doesn't have the right to get offended.



I'm not trying to be rude, but in my humble opinion, you're a complete idiot and I curse the day you were born. No offense. Thank you.   :wild:


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

CarrieJ said:


> Some folks are just so flawless with their dog handling I guess that gives them the right to act like that. Or, they live in a bubble and have never seen the other side of the street.
> 
> Atticus Finch: "You never know a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes"


So true... I was once bemoaning the fact that, because of a health issue, I am unable to participate in sports like Schutzhund. I was called a "whiner" and to "shut up and go away". Granted, I might have been feeling a little sorry for myself, but wow. Thanks, voice in my head!

I admit it's a lot easier to judge someone if you haven't had to walk in their shoes.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Rotts-n-GSD's: I agree. Excellent post. And same with Freesteps. 

Twice I have had people read a completely different meaning into one or two sentences I've typed. IRL I am one of those people who says exactly what I mean, with as little words as possible. And it irritates me when people don't really listen to what I'm saying, then repeat it back to me in question form. Probably because my dad expected us to listen to him--he would say something ONCE and if we missed it, we had to deal with the consequences, whatever they might be. 

In the posts I was misunderstood in, I thought they were clear and simple. One person thought I was being totally sarcastic, which I wasn't in the _least_, the other I guess thought I was being the same--or maybe it was just that particular poster. That individual also ended every response with a very sarcastic "polite" tone and smiley faces, while being basically a rude J*** online. 

Usually I then try to post explaining what my post meant, but it can go downhill fast.... 

In terms of crucifying, I would really love to post my pup's pedigree, to see what people have to offer about it. Really just because I'm curious to hear anything--I love him to death so far, he's everything I've ever wanted, (well, except for the longer hair part, lol) so it isn't that I'm unhappy or searching for trouble spots I think are in him, but I'm frankly afraid to do it, for fear of getting really nasty responses. That he's only "showline" or he's _this _or he's _that...._ 
ETA: I'm ok with hearing the not-so-great- aspects too, as long as they are from someone I know knows their stuff. I appreciate everything about breedings, and that nothing is absolutely perfect. And I did have one breeder give me a quick opinion, that I really appreciate and felt like they knew their stuff, but they couldn't really go in depth for private reasons. 

There is some really great knowledge on this board that I'd love to hear but it's intimidating for sure.


----------



## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm not trying to be rude, but in my humble opinion, you're a complete idiot and I curse the day you were born. No offense. Thank you.   :wild:


..good one..:laugh:


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I admit I haven't read every thread, but I have never seen anyone say anything like that. What I have read (and tend to agree with) is that GSD breeders ought not to be breeding *for* larger than standard size. Of course, that does not mean that every pup that pops out bigger than expected "shouldn't be born" or that their papers are "garbage". Are you sure this isn't YOUR interpretation of something that was said?
> 
> But wouldn't it be easier if, instead of assuming the horrible, you could check in with the poster and say "Could you clarify what you mean by that?"


Well, when someone refers to 100 + GSD's as monstrosities or beasts, I don't think there is much to clarify.
Since I happen to own one of those monstrosities, I take that as an insult. 
Wouldn't you?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

GSDGunner said:


> Well, when someone refers to 100 + GSD's as monstrosities or beasts, I don't think there is much to clarify.
> Since I happen to own one of those monstrosities, I take that as an insult.
> Wouldn't you?


Yes, I agree with you.

Also, in the "real world" outside of this forum, I am flippin' sick and tired of hearing "What's wrong with your dog? He's so _small!_ Are you sure he's not a mix? My uncle has a German Shepherd and he weighs 150 pounds! Now THAT'S a dog!"


----------



## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Folks type stuff they would never say out loud. You can't see faces, or hear inflections,so often misunderstandings occur on the net. This board, by virtue of it's URL does get a ton of newbies asking newbie questions. They do get tiresome, but it's a brand new question to the OP, so either answer with some civility, or cuss under your breath and move onto another thread where you can be civil and contribute and learn. As for humble opinions...that's a bit of an oxymoron at times, as opining can so easily be anything but humble. But adding JMHO or just sayin does indicate some fallibility to the generalizations made. 
Nobody reacts well to criticism, and anger seldom is going to help anyone, least of all the problem dog!


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm not trying to be rude, but in my humble opinion, you're a complete idiot and I curse the day you were born. No offense. Thank you.   :wild:


I got this one for you Nicki....









Now go to your room!!


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I admit I haven't read every thread, but I have never seen anyone say anything like that. What I have read (and tend to agree with) is that GSD breeders ought not to be breeding *for* larger than standard size. Of course, that does not mean that every pup that pops out bigger than expected "shouldn't be born" or that their papers are "garbage". *Are you sure this isn't YOUR interpretation of something that was said?
> *





Germanshepherdlova said:


> Agreed. I knew nothing about GSD's and consequently purchased mine from a non-reputable breeder. I was told once that I should have educated myself before buying my dog-that there is the internet and plenty other resources out there. Stupid, stupid, me is how that *greater-than-thou commenter made me feel.* Oh-and another thing* I have walked away from a thread feeling* is that my boy should never have been born because he doesn't meet the breed standard-and his AKC papers are basically garbage because he is too big! All these perfect people and GSD's around-I almost Googled for a forum that was for the stupid GSD owner and her non-breed compliant German Shepherd!


Those are the magic words-how the commenter made ME feel of course that is how I interpreted what I was told-who else's interpretation would I go by? I know what I read-my reading comprehension is way above average, and that is how I walked away feeling. My GSD was bred from a large line, his size isn't an accident. Hopefully I will not be torched on this thread for clarifying that-but now you can kind of see why the-oh, if it was a fluke we can excuse it, it was no mistake and I knew he would grow to be huge when I bought him.


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

Emoore said:


> I'm not trying to be rude, but in my humble opinion, you're a complete idiot and I curse the day you were born. No offense. Thank you.   :wild:


 
Bwahahaha!!!! *gasps for breath* Hahahaha!!!! 
You forgot the part about the dog handling critique.


Seriously, I don't do the saccharine thing too well either on line or IRL. I'm learning better people skills IRL as I just got a management promotion (where's the "shoot me now" simile?) and some of the humans that I manage drive me nutzo.
So far avoidance has worked on line, whether it's a topic that I know by the title will be a boiling cauldron of sacharine laced insults or even straight up blatant "in your face" insults. I run away. 
*shrugs* IRL....I dunno, I'm working on a non confrontational approach that's more instructional without being too wordy.
I do feel sorry for the newer people on the forum though. Some of them really mean to well or what's best for their dog. Isn't that the point of asking advice or asking for reading material?
To improve things.
(the "should I breed my dog" threads excepted....even then, if some more experienced person can calmly without biting their head off, discourage them from breeding untested/unhealthy dogs....more power to them.)

ETA: yep....I've got a epileptic "monstrosity"....so it's annoying to hear comments like that.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Yes, I agree with you.
> 
> Also, in the "real world" outside of this forum, I am flippin' sick and tired of hearing "What's wrong with your dog? He's so _small!_ Are you sure he's not a mix? My uncle has a German Shepherd and he weighs 150 pounds! Now THAT'S a dog!"


I got a good one for you. Kaos is HUGE. He is 30 inches tall, 36 inches from base of neck to base of tail and currently 122 lbs. I was in the vets office the other day visiting with one of the receptionists while waiting for the Dr and another patient walks in. She commented that he was a nice looking dog, BUT he was no where near the size of her old GSD King. She claimed King stood to her waist and weighed 150 lbs. I nodded and smiled and said actually Kaos is way to big for standard and a bit too heavy for my liking...she pffed me and said again, well he's not even close to what my King was, King was an ideal Shepherd she claimed. So it doesn't matter what size your dog is.....there is always that persons who was bigger. As I tell my kids, there are idiots in every aspect of life, your job is to learn to manuever around them.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> In terms of crucifying, I would really love to post my pup's pedigree, to see what people have to offer about it. Really just because I'm curious to hear anything--I love him to death so far, he's everything I've ever wanted, (well, except for the longer hair part, lol) so it isn't that I'm unhappy or searching for trouble spots I think are in him, but I'm frankly afraid to do it, for fear of getting really nasty responses. That he's only "showline" or he's _this _or he's _that...._.


Don't worry... every time I've posted a pedigree looking for comments/critiques, I either get no response, or something like "I know something about this pedigree but I'm not going to tell you."  If you're lucky, some of the knowledgable people will answer with some interesting information, and we all learn something.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

mysweetkaos said:


> I got a good one for you. Kaos is HUGE. He is 30 inches tall, 36 inches from base of neck to base of tail and currently 122 lbs. I was in the vets office the other day visiting with one of the receptionists while waiting for the Dr and another patient walks in. She commented that he was a nice looking dog, BUT he was no where near the size of her old GSD King. She claimed King stood to her waist and weighed 150 lbs. I nodded and smiled and said actually Kaos is way to big for standard and a bit too heavy for my liking...she pffed me and said again, well he's not even close to what my King was, King was an ideal Shepherd she claimed.



Back in the 80's when my husband was a kid, his family had a GSD named Satan. I have no idea what his actual size was, but I do know that poor dog gets a little bigger every time they talk about him. When I started dating my husband, Satan (who was already many years dead) weighed about 105lb. These days he's up to about 135. Maybe they should put him on a diet.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Back in the 80's when my husband was a kid, his family had a GSD named Satan. I have no idea what his actual size was, but I do know that poor dog gets a little bigger every time they talk about him. When I started dating my husband, Satan (who was already many years dead) weighed about 105lb. These days he's up to about 135. Maybe they should put him on a diet.


Do they have diets in doggy heaven? That would suck. Can I say that?? Kaos will not be a very happy camper if when he gets there he is on the same restricted diet he is now!! My husband grew up with Labs....and his dogs get more amazing every time I hear about them....I usually hear about them when our non-labs are up to no good I swear his labs were super dogs maybe they're up there with Satan getting super fat!!


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Hmmm.....I have to step away right now, I have a 6.5 month old GSD grabbing all the pillows off my couch in an attempt to tell me he needs some attention, so maybe when I get back! 

:INSERTEMOTICONOFYOURCHOICEHERE:


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> So true. I have kind of a dry, sideways sense of humor and I'll post something that I intend to be funny but later I'm wondering, "Did they understand that was meant to be a joke?" "Is someone going to get mad and insulted because I didn't put a laughing smiley face?"



Me too emoore. About 50% of what I post is "tongue in cheek" or dry sense of humor. I'm amazed at the people who take it seriously. That or they don't get the humor at all. I'm starting to use smilies more because of it. 
Like in this thread I was tweaking freestep about telling her clients their dogs were *fat*.

To GSDlova. 

Threads can be a problem too. I started a thread on "When is a GSD not a GSD". I was curious about the breed standard and how far from it you can get and still consider your dog a GSD. I said several times in that thread it was not about anyones individual dog. I mentioned oversize and white etc..
Some were offended anyway. The subject could have been about Golden Retrievers. Then it would have ticked off GR people.
The thing is, that thread and a number of similiar threads have made me realize that standards are for those select breeders who want to maintain their version of the way the breed should be. Most of us get the type of dog we prefer and at that point the individual dog we have is the only one that matters. Doesn't matter if it's too big, too small, too fat (freestep) wrong color or coat. It's our dog and we love them.

I do get irritated on the training threads. There are many versions of the best way to train but some people are really isistant that their way is the only way. I have trouble keeping my mouth shut on those threads. Not because I have a better training method but I really do not like the way some project that you are a jerk if you use a prong collar or some other thing. Training to me is not something cast in stone. It's something you use based on yourself and your dog's needs and what works and what doesn't for you.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Please don't keep your mouth shut. Some of us like to hear the options, as not everything works for every dog.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> About 50% of what I post is "tongue in cheek" or dry sense of humor. I'm amazed at the people who take it seriously. That or they don't get the humor at all. I'm starting to use smilies more because of it.
> Like in this thread I was tweaking freestep about telling her clients their dogs were *fat*..


I for one truly enjoy and look forward to your dry sense of humor. By the way I decided to opt of going to K-mart last night, ran to Wal-greens instead....not sure if that's any better?

as for sense of humors....on many occasions my husband and I have walked away from situations and he will say "you realize they had no idea you were joking, right?" Woops....no wonder people think I'm a jerk


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Please don't keep your mouth shut. Some of us like to hear the options, as not everything works for every dog.


Couldn't agree more. No one should ever feel the need to keep quiet. What you have to offer could be invaluable to someone.


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Hmmm.....I have to step away right now, I have a 6.5 month old GSD grabbing all the pillows off my couch in an attempt to tell me he needs some attention, so maybe when I get back!
> 
> :INSERTEMOTICONOFYOURCHOICEHERE:


Now you know why they call them *throw pillows *.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mysweetkaos said:


> I for one truly enjoy and look forward to your dry sense of humor. By the way I decided to opt of going to K-mart last night, ran to Wal-greens instead....not sure if that's any better?
> 
> as for sense of humors....on many occasions my husband and I have walked away from situations and he will say "you realize they had no idea you were joking, right?" Woops....no wonder people think I'm a jerk


Wal-Greens is much better.

They sell much higher quality BYB mutts outside of their store. Maybe they just have higher *standards*. :laugh:


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Wal-Greens is much better.
> 
> They sell much higher quality BYB mutts outside of their store. Maybe they just have higher *standards*. :laugh:


I must admit I felt much classier buying my Alka-selzer cold medicine there than at K-mart.


----------



## Davey Benson (Nov 10, 2010)




----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> Me too emoore. About 50% of what I post is "tongue in cheek" or dry sense of humor. I'm amazed at the people who take it seriously. That or they don't get the humor at all. I'm starting to use smilies more because of it.
> Like in this thread I was tweaking freestep about telling her clients their dogs were *fat*.


You guys have to remember that a lot of sarcasm and humor goes out the window online. There is no tone of voice, no facial expressions to infer that the person is joking. I try to put that smiley face and make sure I point out that I was joking when I do. Not wanting to insult anyone's intelligence I just know that without face-to-face a lot of things can be misinterpreted (espcially humor)


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

I just realized that I must have pretty thick skin to subject myself to a GSD forum.

My male GSD is 27.5" tall, 100 lbs, has very week nerves, loves to cuddle (like a teddy bear) on occasion, and he's WHITE!  :wild:


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I just realized that I must have pretty thick skin to subject myself to a GSD forum.
> 
> My male GSD is 27.5" tall, 100 lbs, has very week nerves, loves to cuddle (like a teddy bear) on occasion, and he's WHITE!  :wild:


It took me a couple of months to disclose that Kaos' sire was white and dam was B/T.....it took me even longer to disclose he is 30 inches tall and 36 inches long.......and up to 122 lbs. I guess I finally decided he's 9.5 nobody can say anything that can make me love him less.....knowing everything I think I know now...I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole, but I would have missed out on what to me is the best dog I've ever experienced:wub:


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDGunner said:


> Well, when someone refers to 100 + GSD's as monstrosities or beasts, I don't think there is much to clarify.
> Since I happen to own one of those monstrosities, I take that as an insult.
> Wouldn't you?


I mean...there's a difference between getting one from a responsible breeder that just grew that big, and breeding for the trait over oversizedness?

Our own GSD (rescued from a pound) was over 90lbs. in his heyday and 28" tall. And then we adopted one that was larger than that. 
And I can see them growing that large, but a breeding program based on solely size was what people seemed to have an issue with (at least me). 

I'm sorry if I offended you by implying your dog is less than perfect, none of our dogs are perfect...and yours is completely handsome and a hunk! :wub:


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mysweetkaos said:


> It took me a couple of months to disclose that Kaos' sire was white and dam was B/T.....it took me even longer to disclose he is 30 inches tall and 36 inches long.......and up to 122 lbs. I guess I finally decided he's 9.5 nobody can say anything that can make me love him less.....knowing everything I think I know now...I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole, but I would have missed out on what to me is the best dog I've ever experienced:wub:


You and Rott-n-GSD are just perfect examples of what is wrong with the GSD of today. Shame on you both. :laugh::laugh:


----------



## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> *I just realized that I must have pretty thick skin to subject myself to a GSD forum*.
> 
> My male GSD is 27.5" tall, 100 lbs, has very week nerves, loves to cuddle (like a teddy bear) on occasion, and he's WHITE!  :wild:


Ha! 
When I first joined with my "opps litter" WGSD pup and my 2 Shilohs I was shaking in my boots...not really but I still sometimes I don't post problems. Some people can be "harsh". None the less I like it here and hope that my experiences might be helpful to someone when I throw my 2 cents in.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> You guys have to remember that a lot of sarcasm and humor goes out the window online. There is no tone of voice, no facial expressions to infer that the person is joking. I try to put that smiley face and make sure I point out that I was joking when I do. Not wanting to insult anyone's intelligence I just know that without face-to-face a lot of things can be misinterpreted (espcially humor)


I hear you and I understand what you are saying but my sense of humor for good or ill is part of me for longer than a lot of people on the forum have been alive.
If I need to monitor myself constantly then I might as well quit posting and go find something else to do. 
That might not be a bad idea anyway.
I got sent to the vice principals office many times in high school because the teachers didn't find my sense of humor funny. The class did.
Hmmm. Wonder why the class laughed but the teachers didn't. Actually some of the teachers did laugh just before they sent me to the vice principals office.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> You and Rott-n-GSD are just perfect examples of what is wrong with the GSD of today. Shame on you both. :laugh::laugh:


I know, but somebody has to love all of the misfits in this world  My only regret is I never bred him and sold his puppies outside of a K-mart in the evening hours!


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> I just realized that I must have pretty thick skin to subject myself to a GSD forum.
> 
> My male GSD is 27.5" tall, 100 lbs, has very week nerves, loves to cuddle (like a teddy bear) on occasion, and he's WHITE!  :wild:


OMG! Off with your head woman!!  But I loooove your Nova!!!



msvette2u said:


> I mean...there's a difference between getting one from a responsible breeder that just grew that big, and breeding for the trait over oversizedness?
> 
> I'm sorry if I offended you by implying your dog is less than perfect, none of our dogs are perfect...and yours is completely handsome and a hunk! :wub:


And there's a difference between implying a dog isn't perfect and calling him a monstrosity. Gunner is anything but perfect and I'm the first to admit that. 
But I personally saw no difference in whether an oversized dog is from a reputable breeder and one who breeds for that trait. An insult is an insult. I'm sure I'm not the only one with an oversized dog from a reputable breeder who found that offensive.
Perhaps it would be helpful in the future if you choose your wording more carefully so as not to offend someone.
Just a thought.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I will never get behind irresponsible-style breeding. I know others here who can't/won't either. 
Just a thought.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> And there's a difference between implying a dog isn't perfect and calling him a monstrosity. Gunner is anything but perfect and I'm the first to admit that.
> But I personally saw no difference in whether an oversized dog is from a reputable breeder and one who breeds for that trait. An insult is an insult. I'm sure I'm not the only one with an oversized dog from a reputable breeder who found that offensive.
> Perhaps it would be helpful in the future if you choose your wording more carefully so as not to offend someone.
> Just a thought.


I agree there. Reputable is a "subjective" term....but Kaos was from parents who were health tested, from a woman who meant well, had just 2 dogs whom she loved and bred and they were not bred to be HUGE. He was the runt of the litter actually and of the siblings I've seen/known, he is by far the biggest.


----------



## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

I think some people needs to get off their high horse and stop insulting people or their dogs, period.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> And there's a difference between implying a dog isn't perfect and calling him a monstrosity. Gunner is anything but perfect and I'm the first to admit that.
> But I personally saw no difference in whether an oversized dog is from a reputable breeder and one who breeds for that trait. An insult is an insult. I'm sure I'm not the only one with an oversized dog from a reputable breeder who found that offensive.


Did someone use the word "monstrosity" to describe your dog? I must have missed that, but I have heard words like "couch potato" being bandied about when describing oversize dogs. I don't think that's degrading, though--heck, I'd love to have a couch potato, my high-energy girls drive me near crazy at times!

Again, I don't think anyone means to insult the *dogs*. The dog can't help what he is, and it's not his fault that he's oversize (or white, or floppy-eared, or whatever)! The criticism I see is directed toward the questionable breeders, not the dogs themselves. How can you possibly insult a DOG? Dogs are not like humans, they have no choice or influence over their stature or physical appearance. And even if they did, they probably wouldn't care.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

kiya said:


> Ha!
> When I first joined with my "opps litter" WGSD pup and my 2 Shilohs I was shaking in my boots...not really but I still sometimes I don't post problems. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> I will never get behind irresponsible-style breeding. I know others here who can't/won't either.
> Just a thought.


That is absolutely not what Gunner was saying. It was a completely reasonable request to not use insulting and demaning terms that are insulting, like calling someone's oversized dog, whether from a good breeder for from a BYB, a 'monstrosity'. 

One can comment on the ethics of a breeder without attacking the dogs.


----------



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

^^ Well, yes, they can ignore you. It's happened to me. Which is why people end up posting, because they still want a response. 


Also, someone publicly bashed my breeder here, sent me PM's telling me to contact my local Schz clubs and other breeders and basically were nasty. So I did, and guess what? They all liked him. In fact, the one local club that this individual insisted hated my breeder, trains with him! The only reason someone would make that up is to be nasty, plain and simple.


ETA: in response to Lillie's post.


----------



## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Lilie said:


> kiya said:
> 
> 
> > Kiya - you've been here long enough to know there are many posters who have a vast amount of good, solid experiance. Wouldn't you just PM them individually if you had question that you didn't want to make public?
> ...


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Freestep said:


> Did someone use the word "monstrosity" to describe your dog? I must have missed that, but I have heard words like "couch potato" being bandied about when describing oversize dogs. I don't think that's degrading, though--heck, I'd love to have a couch potato, my high-energy girls drive me near crazy at times!
> 
> Again, I don't think anyone means to insult the *dogs*. The dog can't help what he is, and it's not his fault that he's oversize (or white, or floppy-eared, or whatever)! The criticism I see is directed toward the questionable breeders, not the dogs themselves. How can you possibly insult a DOG? Dogs are not like humans, they have no choice or influence over their stature or physical appearance. And even if they did, they probably wouldn't care.


I wish I could remember where it was....I know on a few occasions when the subject of "big" ones has come up...people have used some offensive words as if they are circus freaks. I try to ignore it.....we didn't go for a big one, he wasn't bred for size, he is big and we love him.
As for thinking big=couch potato? I am not sure about the others who have larger shepherds....but I wish. Kaos would be now if he were able to get himself on the couch, however in his prime he was one crazy guy!!:crazy:



Castlemaid said:


> That is absolutely not what Gunner was saying. It was a completely reasonable request to not use insulting and demaning terms that are insulting, like calling someone's oversized dog, whether from a good breeder for from a BYB, a 'monstrosity'.
> 
> One can comment on the ethics of a breeder without attacking the dogs.


Absolutely and many just assume if your dog is large you had a BYB and you were specifically looking for a "Beast". I guess there-in lies the source of the problem....people react to their assumption rather than each situation for what it is. That's where feelings get hurt.


----------



## CarrieJ (Feb 22, 2011)

You know, I've got to go off topic of large off topic of if you can't say anything nice....to bring up that:

I'd totally forgotten about the K-Mart thing! That made me laugh out loud.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I will never get behind irresponsible-style breeding. I know others here who can't/won't either.
> Just a thought.


Who said you should? I am just as opposed to irresponsible breeding as the next guy/gal.
No one implied you should get behind anything. But the label you painted on those dogs applies to other oversized dogs from reputable breeders. Sorry you don't see it that way.



Freestep said:


> Did someone use the word "monstrosity" to describe your dog? I must have missed that, but I have heard words like "couch potato" being bandied about when describing oversize dogs. I don't think that's degrading, though--heck, I'd love to have a couch potato, my high-energy girls drive me near crazy at times!
> 
> Again, I don't think anyone means to insult the *dogs*. The dog can't help what he is, and it's not his fault that he's oversize (or white, or floppy-eared, or whatever)! The criticism I see is directed toward the questionable breeders, not the dogs themselves. How can you possibly insult a DOG? Dogs are not like humans, they have no choice or influence over their stature or physical appearance. And even if they did, they probably wouldn't care.


No, not MY dog, just 100lb + oversized dogs that were labeled monstrosities/beasts.
That just happens to be my dog. Criticize the irresponsible breeders all you want, but why call the dogs monsters? Like you said, it's not their fault.
And for the record, my monster dog came from a reputable breeder of champion American showlines. You know, the far from popular line here. 
Both sire and dam are well within the standard, but produced the monster I know and love, aka, Gunner.

And also for the record, I would LOVE to have a couch potato. Ever try to keep an extremely active GSD docile while trying to heal a leg injury? 
Not my idea of fun!


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> That is absolutely not what Gunner was saying. It was a completely reasonable request to not use insulting and demaning terms that are insulting, like calling someone's oversized dog, whether from a good breeder for from a BYB, a 'monstrosity'.
> 
> One can comment on the ethics of a breeder without attacking the dogs.


Thank you! I'm glad you understood where I was coming from.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

mysweetkaos said:


> ...people have used some offensive words as if they are circus freaks. I try to ignore it.....


I think comments referring to oversize dogs as "freakish" or whatever are a dig on the *breeder*, not the dog. Just try to keep that in mind when you read things that push your buttons.

I honestly don't think anyone here would say a dog's life is of lesser instrinsic value just because he is oversize or whatever. Or that such a dog is less deserving of love, care, and the best treatment possible. It would truly shock me if someone came here and said "Because your dog is oversize, he is an ugly, freakish monstrosity that should not be allowed to live." I think you'd be safe to assume no one *means* that, even if they use less than flattering terms.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

And this may be news to some but some of us who own "huge" GSD's are proud of our dogs-and since this is a pubic forum have the right to post pictures of them on the brag board, and doing so isn't an open invitation to have our dogs critiqued or ridiculed. Not proud because "my dog is so big" but proud period because we think our dog is beautiful-big or not!


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

There is never a reason to refer to any dog as a monstrosity, beast, mutant, slow, big furry drooling idiot or a big furry sloth.
That's my point.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I think comments referring to oversize dogs as "freakish" or whatever are a dig on the *breeder*, not the dog. Just try to keep that in mind when you read things that push your buttons.
> 
> I honestly don't think anyone here would say a dog's life is of lesser instrinsic value just because he is oversize or whatever. Or that such a dog is less deserving of love, care, and the best treatment possible. It would truly shock me if someone came here and said "Because your dog is oversize, he is an ugly, freakish monstrosity that should not be allowed to live." I think you'd be safe to assume no one *means* that, even if they use less than flattering terms.


A lot of these less than flattering comments come up because of the breed standard.

No one IMO should make any negative remark about anyones dog period.
The breed standard is for the breeders to argue about and determine how they will breed dogs. 
Asking for advice about dog problems or training might bring responses people don't like but that is part of asking for advice.
There is no excuse for taking personal shots at someones beloved companion.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> There is never a reason to refer to any dog as a monstrosity, beast, mutant, slow, big furry drooling idiot or a big furry sloth.
> That's my point.


:thumbup:


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I think comments referring to oversize dogs as "freakish" or whatever are a dig on the *breeder*, not the dog. Just try to keep that in mind when you read things that push your buttons.
> 
> I honestly don't think anyone here would say a dog's life is of lesser instrinsic value just because he is oversize or whatever. Or that such a dog is less deserving of love, care, and the best treatment possible. It would truly shock me if someone came here and said "Because your dog is oversize, he is an ugly, freakish monstrosity that should not be allowed to live." I think you'd be safe to assume no one *means* that, even if they use less than flattering terms.


I've lived enough life that it takes more than that to push my buttons. I can see from some posts I've read though if I were a newer owner, or having a bad day that it could really rub me the wrong way. But such is life. I know we didn't go looking for a bigger than average one, he wasn't bred to be that, and we love him dearly. There have been posts referring negatively or assuming people who have big ones have them to feel tough....I don't mind I know I have a security system and a 9mm, so I don't need a dog to feel tough. Like I said I wish I remember where the posts were.....but kind of glad I can't it is an endless argument to which there will be no end. People need to remember we are all here because we love our dogs, love the breed, and are trying to do the best we can by them, whether they weigh 75 lbs or 122 lbs.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> There is never a reason to refer to any dog as a monstrosity, beast, mutant, slow, big furry drooling idiot or a big furry sloth.
> That's my point.


On a side note...I think my husband has used all those words when referring to our Mastiff mix


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> There is no excuse for taking personal shots at someones beloved companion.


Agreed, it's like taking a shot at someone's child, and I can't imagine anyone here that would do that. So, for instance, if someone says they think sables are ugly, and I own a sable, I have to assume that it wasn't meant to be personal.

I have seen people take potshots at others' dogs on OTHER forums... I visited a Pit Bull forum where people were downright cruel to each other and each others' dogs! You should see the insults and name-calling there, it's astonishing that these people call themselves dog lovers... But this forum has a different crowd, I hope.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

People tell others to develop thick skin then take posts out of context to hold against other people. 
Seems really odd to me.
I'd never sit around going "Oh, my dog is being attacked" when others were telling _someone else_ to not deliberately breed GSDs the size of Newfoundlands, even if my dog weighed 150lbs. and stood 30" at the shoulder.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> Agreed, it's like taking a shot at someone's child, and I can't imagine anyone here that would do that. So, for instance, if someone says they think sables are ugly, and I own a sable, I have to assume that it wasn't meant to be personal.


I've never seen anyone call another person's dog ugly.
I don't care for Sable but that's because it's not what I'm used to seeing, and our first GSDs were black/tan. I grew to really prefer the dark black/tan dogs. 
I love Ruger's coloring. But I don't hate sables and I don't think they are ugly.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> People tell others to develop thick skin then take posts out of context to hold against other people.
> Seems really odd to me.
> I'd never sit around going "Oh, my dog is being attacked" when others were telling _someone else_ to not deliberately breed GSDs the size of Newfoundlands, even if my dog weighed 150lbs. and stood 30" at the shoulder.


I don't see how anything was taken out of context. Oversized dogs are oversized dogs regardless of how they were bred, or who bred them.
Doesn't seem odd to me at all. 
Since it was you that said them, own up to it. You're obviously not sorry you insulted a good amount of beautiful dogs.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> Since it was you that said them, own up to it. You're obviously not sorry you insulted a good amount of beautiful dogs.


She didn't insult the dogs themselves, rather, the breeders that deliberately breed for oversize, if I am not mistaken.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Linda, I "owned up" and apologized to you pages ago.
Maybe you missed it.
And I didn't insult YOUR dog personally -if you took it as an insult then that is your issue.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> She didn't insult the dogs themselves, rather, the breeders that deliberately breed for oversize, if I am not mistaken.


No you are not mistaken, that sums it up.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> *I've never seen anyone call another person's dog ugly.*
> I don't care for Sable but that's because it's not what I'm used to seeing, and our first GSDs were black/tan. I grew to really prefer the dark black/tan dogs.
> I love Ruger's coloring. But I don't hate sables and I don't think they are ugly.


Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I HAVE seen someone say-if you are going to post pictures of your fat and ugly dog then don't be offended when people tell you-or whatever the heck they went on to say. That is an attack on the dog-not the breeder. An extremely uncalled for attack.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Please stop the back-and-forth bickering of who said what when where and why. That is getting personal and detracting from the spirit of the thread. 

Thank you, 

From your friendly neighborhood Moderator (who owns a sable that is oversized and too friendly with strangers for the breed standard).


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I HAVE seen someone say-*if you are going to post pictures of your fat and ugly dog then don't be offended when people tell you*-or whatever the heck they went on to say. That is an attack on the dog-not the breeder. An extremely uncalled for attack.


I can't help but think you're talking about me because this sounds EXACTLY like something I said about a month ago minus the ugly dog reference. If it is something you think I said, please call me out on it, I won't take it as a personal attack or anything. I definitely didn't mean to call out anyones dog as ugly.

Here's a thread from about a month ago that I think you're talking about. Go to post #28.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ragging-shes-such-big-girl-3.html#post2336946

If it's not me that you're talking about, I'd love to see you go back and find whatever post you're talking about. I've been here for years and not once has anyone ever said "you have an ugly dog" to someone else. At least I've never noticed anything like that.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Castlemaid said:


> Please stop the back-and-forth bickering of who said what when where and why. That is getting personal and detracting from the spirit of the thread.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> From your friendly neighborhood Moderator (who owns a sable that is oversized and too friendly with strangers for the breed standard).


Why don't we just say your sable is a + size model.

I really like your avatar. I can't get Jack or my pup Zena (sable) to stay still long enough to get a close up. 

Just for the record my dogs are perfect in every way much like their owner.
Oops.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

I have something else to add. Even though I bought an oversized GSD knowingly-I was not familiar with the breed standard at the time, and really didn't care about any such matters. It wasn't until my dog was neutered earlier this year and had complications-while he was at the vets for several days recovering from a scrotal ablation, I found this forum. I learned so much about reputable breeders, bloodlines, and breed standards here. Things that I nor most people I know ever discuss or have ever put any thought into. Would I return to the same breeder that my dog is from? No! We have went through so much with him and still are-BUT we love him very much and do not consider him in the least bit less than anyone else's dog. And it is offensive when other oversized dogs are insulted because though not directed toward my boy-in reality, it is the same difference because he is in the same boat.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Lucia,,this is turning INTO just what I was TALKING about..


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Not good timing Paul. Lucia is going to come looking for you.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> Not good timing Paul. Lucia is going to come looking for you.


Wait... is that some kind of subliminal way of calling me and my dog ugly?

Mods!!! Andy's calling me ugly!

Wow... is this thread going to get shut down fast. Quick... someone mention breeding their two puppies while we still have the chance to argue about more stuff.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> And it is offensive when other oversized dogs are insulted because though not directed toward my boy-in reality, it is the same difference because he is in the same boat.


Why? I don't get offended when someone insults nervy dogs or dogs from BYB'ers. I don't get upset when someone says "A dog with poor nerves is a liability," even though I have a dog with poor nerves. I don't get mad when somebody says, "It's unethical and irresponsible to breed nervy dogs" even though mine is the nerviest there is. It doesn't bother me when someone says, "Go to a byb'er and you're really rolling the dice" even though my dog is from one. 

I also don't take personally the countless threads in the "Ears Up!" section where people are upset and agonizing because their dogs' ears aren't up, even though my heart dog had floppy ears. Have you _heard_ the things they say about soft ears over there?


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Wait... is that some kind of subliminal way of calling me and my dog ugly?
> 
> Mods!!! Andy's calling me ugly!
> 
> Wow... is this thread going to get shut down fast. Quick... someone mention breeding their two puppies while we still have the chance to argue about more stuff.


He is talking about the mod asking people to stop the personal stuff and defeat the purpose of this entire thread. I pm'd you about the personal matter.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Why? I don't get offended when someone insults nervy dogs or dogs from BYB'ers. I don't get upset when someone says "A dog with poor nerves is a liability," even though I have a dog with poor nerves. I don't get mad when somebody says, "It's unethical and irresponsible to breed nervy dogs" even though mine is the nerviest there is.  It doesn't bother me when someone says, "Go to a byb'er and you're really rolling the dice" even though my dog is from one.
> 
> I also don't take personally the countless threads in the "Ears Up!" section where people are upset and agonizing because their dogs' ears aren't up, even though my heart dog had floppy ears. Have you _heard_ the things they say about soft ears over there?


Because not everyone is the same-I find it insulting-when it is worded in a rude manner.Probably because I am my own individual person-unique.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with Lucia,,this is turning INTO just what I was TALKING about..


I actually think overall it has been a good thread. Sure, there is some dirty laundry being aired out but in the long run that might be a good thing. 
Everybody hopefuly will get to start over fresh.

Too bad Paul had to try and ruin things.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Why? I don't get offended when someone insults nervy dogs or dogs from BYB'ers. I don't get upset when someone says "A dog with poor nerves is a liability," even though I have a dog with poor nerves. I don't get mad when somebody says, "It's unethical and irresponsible to breed nervy dogs" even though mine is the nerviest there is. It doesn't bother me when someone says, "Go to a byb'er and you're really rolling the dice" even though my dog is from one.
> 
> I also don't take personally the countless threads in the "Ears Up!" section where people are upset and agonizing because their dogs' ears aren't up, even though my heart dog had floppy ears. Have you _heard_ the things they say about soft ears over there?


Well I don't get insulted either when people trot out 15 generation pedigrees, while all ours were rescued and grew in my heart, not my tummy...! Oh wait. That's a different forum!


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> And it is offensive when other oversized dogs are insulted because though not directed toward my boy-in reality, it is the same difference because he is in the same boat.


We can do all we can to be polite and diplomatic when we offer up thoughts, opinions, and critiques. I can say "this is not about you or your dog personally" until I'm blue in the face. But if a person firmly insists upon taking offense, there's nothing more I can do!

I think that if we start a thread about having constructive things to say, we should also say something about learning how to take things constructively as well. We all love those posters that come in and ask for advice, only to argue with every piece of advice given, and in the end ignore everyone and do exactly the opposite.

Effective communication involves both the speaker and the listener, and if people take as much responsibility for how they hear, interpret, and reply to a post as they do in writing one, then much can be learned. I can say the same thing five times, but if someone else doesn't want to hear it, I'm pretty sure it's not my fault.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jack's Dad said:


> Too bad Paul had to try and ruin things.














Emoore said:


> I also don't take personally the countless threads in the "Ears Up!" section where people are upset and agonizing because their dogs' ears aren't up, even though my heart dog had floppy ears. Have you _heard_ the things they say about soft ears over there?


I thought you were going to start a breeding program with these kind of puppies as it's main purpose. No more? Vom Floppyhaus?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Freestep said:


> We can do all we can to be polite and diplomatic when we offer up thoughts, opinions, and critiques. I can say "this is not about you or your dog personally" until I'm blue in the face. But if a person firmly insists upon taking offense, there's nothing more I can do!


Good job dere woman. I was trying to figure out a constructive way to say that.




Lucy Dog said:


> I thought you were going to start a breeding program with these kind of puppies as it's main purpose. No more?


I went broke. Evidently there's only a market for oversized, flat back, "Ye Olde Fashioned" GSDs if their ears stand up. We can throw out size, nerve, temperament, conformation, pigmentation, and everything else, but by all that's holy those ears had better stand.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> I can't help but think you're talking about me because this sounds EXACTLY like something I said about a month ago minus the ugly dog reference. If it is something you think I said, please call me out on it, I won't take it as a personal attack or anything. I definitely didn't mean to call out anyones dog as ugly.
> 
> Here's a thread from about a month ago that I think you're talking about. Go to post #28.
> 
> ...


OK thanks a lot Lucydog...I just wasted 25 minutes I'll never get back Now I will embarrassingly admit I read that whole thread (it sucked me in) and I think there is a big difference between Oversize shepherds and overweight shepherds. Is Kaos oversize....yes, but he has always been a good weight for his size (105-110) only now in his senior years has he ballooned up to overweight. So I am not sure how all of this over a ahem *chubby* dog has everyone all riled about oversized (too tall, long) dogs....am I missing something? I did find interesting that msvette2u referenced one of my threads where she told me my mix was overweight and compared it to people who thought they had a newfie but it was an overweight spaniel......those are instances where you can come across harshly, because I am not so stupid to mistake my dogs breed and feed him until he pops, but anyhoo no matter now. 



Lucy Dog said:


> Wait... is that some kind of subliminal way of calling me and my dog ugly?
> 
> Mods!!! Andy's calling me ugly!
> 
> Wow... is this thread going to get shut down fast. Quick... someone mention breeding their two puppies while we still have the chance to argue about more stuff.


I already told Andy that I'd always regretted not breeding my 30 inch beast and selling his pups at K-mart....but I think it got lost in all the madness, sorry I tried


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I did find interesting that msvette2u referenced one of my threads where she told me my mix was overweight and compared it to people who thought they had a newfie but it was an overweight spaniel......those are instances where you can come across harshly,


I'm sorry, I thought I was being nicer than to say "stop overfeeding him"!
Oh, and I meant they didn't know, they were simply told that they had a Newf mix so just fed him like you'd do a Newf, based on what the rescue told them.


----------



## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Freestep said:


> We can do all we can to be polite and diplomatic when we offer up thoughts, opinions, and critiques. I can say "this is not about you or your dog personally" until I'm blue in the face. But if a person firmly insists upon taking offense, there's nothing more I can do!
> 
> I think that if we start a thread about having constructive things to say, we should also say something about learning how to take things constructively as well. We all love those posters that come in and ask for advice, only to argue with every piece of advice given, and in the end ignore everyone and do exactly the opposite.
> 
> Effective communication involves both the speaker and the listener, and if people take as much responsibility for how they hear, interpret, and reply to a post as they do in writing one, then much can be learned. I can say the same thing five times, but if someone else doesn't want to hear it, I'm pretty sure it's not my fault.


Communication is much more effective when the speaker is careful not to create semantic noise by making judgmental or offensive statements. If one's purpose is to educate others-this can be done without insulting anybody's dog-and that way the statement-this is not about your dog-would not have to be made to begin with.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mysweetkaos said:


> I already told Andy that I'd always regretted not breeding my 30 inch beast and selling his pups at K-mart....but I think it got lost in all the madness, sorry I tried


I'm thinking a combo of your 30 inch beast and emoore's floppy ear dogs would sell like hot cakes at Kmart.
With a few testimonials about what great dogs they are you might even be able to sell out front of Wal-Greens.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

mysweetkaos said:


> Now I will embarrassingly admit I read that whole thread (it sucked me in) and I think there is a big difference between Oversize shepherds and overweight shepherds.


:happyboogie::groovy::congratulations:

You're absolutely right... big difference between the two.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'm thinking a combo of your 30 inch beast and emoore's floppy ear dogs would sell like hot cakes at Kmart.
> With a few testimonials about what great dogs they are you might even be able to sell out front of Wal-Greens.


Just think Andy if you'd endorse us we may even get a spot in front of Target!!! Only problem I see is both dogs you referenced were male:smirk:



msvette2u said:


> I'm sorry, I thought I was being nicer than to say "stop overfeeding him"!
> Oh, and I meant they didn't know, they were simply told that they had a Newf mix so just fed him like you'd do a Newf, based on what the rescue told them.


No you made a good point to evaluate him....and I did appreciate it. I can just see where that could have gone bad fast. I understood your point and as someone who in real life is often misunderstood I did not take true offense. No worries.....I did switch him off puppy food, reduce his intake a bit and up his activity....so here is the new improved Sherman
_*** Image Removed by Moderator ***_


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Wow he looks great!
And thanks for understanding 
I just didn't know how to tell them, their dog was way pudgy and they were feeding too much. It's easier to type it 
I always wondered if they figured it out!


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Wow he looks great!
> And thanks for understanding
> I just didn't know how to tell them, their dog was way pudgy and they were feeding too much. It's easier to type it
> I always wondered if they figured it out!


Thank you for the compliment...he is still a big boy. Weighed in at 92 lbs 2 weeks ago, but he is much more proportionate I can definetely see the Mastiff and the Shepherd in him. Poor guy has a Mastiff body with a Shepherd head. No problem on the understanding...I tend to come across much differently than I intend in conversations...so I try to see it from all angles before I let it get my hackles up. As far as weight and dogs....I have no problem being told. Sometimes you just don't notice when you see them every day. Some people don't want to figure things out...so they may not have....I'd have to think a Newfie and a Cocker would have some vast differences in appearance.


----------



## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> :happyboogie::groovy::congratulations:
> 
> You're absolutely right... big difference between the two.


All those years of "gifted" classes paid off......FINALLY:hammer:


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

I haven't read this entire thread but I do have something to contribute based on skimming. Yes, a lot of times people are being stupid with their dogs (trying to get us to say it's okay to breed an aggressive, nervy dog for example or flat out abusing the dog and calling it "training) and need to be called out on it. I myself am extremely blunt from time to time (though not on here because I don't know that much about dogs yet!).

However, there's a difference between constructive criticism and acting antagonistic or condescending. I think a lot of people don't realize they're making a person feel looked down on. That's no way to teach a person. If you go to a kid saying "You can't do this you are too stupid and irresponsible" the kid isn't going to think "Oh okay, I should learn, then". The kid is going to get mad at you and stop listening to your advice... at least in my experience. 

We all started off as newbies. I myself am one right now. Sometimes, it's easy to forget that when giving advice.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladyfreckles said:


> I haven't read this entire thread but I do have something to contribute based on skimming. Yes, a lot of times people are being stupid with their dogs (trying to get us to say it's okay to breed an aggressive, nervy dog for example or flat out abusing the dog and calling it "training) and need to be called out on it. I myself am extremely blunt from time to time (though not on here because I don't know that much about dogs yet!).
> 
> However, there's a difference between constructive criticism and acting antagonistic or condescending. I think a lot of people don't realize they're making a person feel looked down on. That's no way to teach a person. If you go to a kid saying "*You can't do this you are too stupid and irresponsible" the kid isn't going to think "Oh okay, I should learn, then". The kid is going to get mad at you and stop listening to your advice... at least in my experience. *
> 
> We all started off as newbies. I myself am one right now. Sometimes, it's easy to forget that when giving advice.


Not only that... that's the point where they do exactly what you don't want them to do.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Not only that... that's the point where they do exactly what you don't want them to do.


Hmmm, Mrs. K. Speaking from your own youthful experiance here? I know I could!


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I have gotten alot of crap from some members, at first I thought about leaving the forum just because I cannot handle my temper and I would have been banned for what I wanted to say but then I got over it. 

There are several people I do not like on this forum, there are alot more people that I do like and there are a ton of people that have great advice and I always pay attention to them and then there is Lilie. :laugh:


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> I have gotten alot of crap from some members, at first I thought about leaving the forum just because I cannot handle my temper and I would have been banned for what I wanted to say but then I got over it.
> 
> There are several people I do not like on this forum, there are alot more people that I do like and there are a ton of people that have great advice and I always pay attention to them and then there is Lilie. :laugh:


Am I one of them? 

:laugh:


----------



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

LOL! Good post LaRen. (p.s. I remember you being helpful to me when I first started posting here...  )

As for the topic....I learned my lesson the last go 'round.

:lurking:


  


*traffic drives revenue*


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

ladyfreckles said:


> Am I one of them?
> 
> :laugh:


Mmmh you're alright.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> LOL! Good post LaRen. (p.s. I remember you being helpful to me when I first started posting here...  )
> 
> As for the topic....I learned my lesson the last go 'round.
> 
> ...


 I am here to learn and to help when I can.


----------



## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I think some people like to start trouble. 
There really isn't any reason to argue, unless your bored and you have nothing better to do. If you want to make your point, make it without insults or insinuations. Not everyone is going to agree on everything and what works for one dog may not work for another.


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> Mmmh you're alright.


oops I meant am I one of the people you don't like


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> There are several people I do not like on this forum, there are alot more people that I do like and there are a ton of people that have great advice and I always pay attention to them *and then there is Lilie*. :laugh:


 
Awe, I'm in a class of my own!


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

kiya said:


> I think some people like to start trouble.
> 
> There really isn't any reason to argue, unless your bored and you have nothing better to do. If you want to make your point, make it without insults or insinuations. Not everyone is going to agree on everything and what works for one dog may not work for another.


Love it! :thumbup: :wild:


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I think that some problems now result from people disagreeing, and one of those people takes the others disagreement as being rude or judgmental etc. It becomes especially difficult because over the Internet, you can't hear tone of voice, and where one person thinks something sounds offensive, another would just call it constructive criticism. I also think it depends on what one specific person considers rude vs constructive, and that interpretation is obviously going to change based in each individual. 

I guess it'd be best if no one jumped to conclusions when a disagreement was made. Unless that specific post was blatantly aggressive and uncalled for.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You know people say that over and over again-you can't hear tone on the internet I think there are people who like to play games on the internet -their own agendas-But after I post when someone says you can't get tone on the internet-its like not only were you wrong about your original opinion but you can't even tell if someone is insulting you


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

I think that's why people should be exceptionally careful with how they word their posts.


----------



## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

I find that when I post here or elsewhere, and also when I send e-mails, I edit them to within an inch of their lives before hitting the send button.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Its tough because people can have drastically different opinions as to what is insulting and what isnt, and as as a result, the way that they word a response may not be formed in a way that another person would not be offended. 

For instance, many people, including myself at times, are very straight forward. And when we say something very bluntly, someone else could possibly consider that rude. Buit in my own personal opinion, honesty and rudeness are very different. I think a lot of the time it comes to a point where people aren't getting responses that they expected or wanted to hear, and take others disagreement as an "attack". Unless, like I said before, a poster is actually blatantly attacked, which I have also seen before on this forum. 

Unfortunately I think it usually boils down to what your personal opinion of "rude" is. Because we are humans, we are not always going to agree, and that should be expected by everyone who posts on a global forum. Not everyone is going to agree all the time.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

My sainted mother always said "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

While I still follow that I do sometimes change it to be "If you can't say something *NICELY*, don't say anything at all."


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

holland said:


> can't even tell if someone is insulting you


Usually best to assume not.


----------



## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

ladyfreckles said:


> I think that's why people should be exceptionally careful with how they word their posts.


Well, that's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
That's just a joke of course!


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> My sainted mother always said "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."
> 
> While I still follow that I do sometimes change it to be "If you can't say something *NICELY*, don't say anything at all."


I still hear my mother say that all the time.

She was also pretty big on "life isn't fair" too, lol.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Its not assuming -


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

holland said:


> Its not assuming -


Our English Teacher in School taught us: Never assume anything, it makes an *A$$* of *U *and *ME*


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Very cute...but I was not assuming


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

holland said:


> Very cute...but I was not assuming


I know. It just popped into my mind when I saw the word.


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> Well, that's just the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
> .
> .
> .
> ...


:rofl:


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Our English Teacher in School taught us: Never assume anything, it makes an *A$$* of *U *and *ME*


That's actually my least favorite saying ever... maybe because I make an *** out of myself too much. 

I also don't necessarily think that someone else making an assumption about your statement makes the statement maker look bad...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> That's actually my least favorite saying ever... maybe because I make an *** out of myself too much.
> 
> I also don't necessarily think that someone else making an assumption about your statement makes the statement maker look bad...



I think it is more applied to real life, friends and people assuming things, spreading rumors etc.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> I think it is more applied to real life, friends and people assuming things, spreading rumors etc.


See, I just went and did it... assuming I knew what the saying was all about. LOL!


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> See, I just went and did it... assuming I knew what the saying was all about. LOL!


Eh, I'm pretty bad with assuming things myself.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Another good adage ...

Speak as you would like to be spoken to


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Well, having owned a very popular dog forum for many years (another breed), I know firsthand how ugly things can get, and quickly spin out of control. Different personalities can have some serious clashes. 

Forums can be such a great source of information, and give you a sense of community. It can also make you hate the internet, and want to reach through your computer screen and throttle someone, LOL!

Knowing all that, I still am extremely hesitant to post my girl's win picture - the one taken when she got her first AKC championship points in November. I got the photo last week. It was definitely not a pleasant experience the last time I posted photos of her.  That said, if you see her win photo, I'm not asking for a critique. I just want to share a brag with some other AKC show people!


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

I'd like to add another thing:

It's best to try to relate to people, even if they are really new at this and you've been working with dogs for 20 years. When I was shadowing my trainer to learn how to give horseback riding lessons she told me that if you can't relate to the student, your student will never learn anything. I think that applies here, too. When I see advice being given, sometimes there's a blatant "wall" there. The person giving the advice may not realize it, but instead of working with the person who needs advice, they are policing them and lecturing. Recent studies are showing that even college lectures don't really work well for teaching. We need to avoid talking _at_ people and instead starting _conversing_ with them. 

I know speaking from my experience, if you want me to never listen to you again, try talking down to me and lecturing me.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Also, there is a difference between being straight forward and nasty, even though sometimes, without having tone and facial expression it can appear to be the same. Plus, personally I am very literal and most of the time cut to the chase and am very straight forward. Sometimes a little too much.


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> Also, there is a difference between being straight forward and nasty, even though sometimes, without having tone and facial expression it can appear to be the same. Plus, personally I am very literal and most of the time cut to the chase and am very straight forward. Sometimes a little too much.


Yeah. Coming off as too straight forward can make people seem accusatory. 

*Example:*

"You should never do that with your dog, it could ruin them forever."

Without any sort of tone or body language behind that, that could easily be interpreted as accusatory. Here's why: the use of 2nd person automatically makes people feel as though they are being lectured. It's always better to use first person. This is something I learned in English in college.

* A better approach would be to do this:*
"Well, I wouldn't do that. It could be very bad for the dog. Try this instead."

It completely changes the tone of the advice from "you are doing this wrong" to "may I make a suggestion?". Many people mistakingly believe that they are giving off the vibe of the 2nd sentence when they say the first sentence. Bottom line, if you're telling someone that "What *you* did with that dog concerns me", you're putting the responsibility on them. And yes, it's their responsibility to take proper care of their animal, but when you put responsibility on them in that fashion, it indirectly blames them. 

People don't like being told what they're doing wrong. They like being shown how to do things right. Positive reinforcement and all that!

And yes, I see the irony in my post. I just wrote a post in 2nd person about how people should never use 2nd person to get a point across. Whoops.


----------



## cta (May 24, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> Knowing all that, I still am extremely hesitant to post my girl's win picture - the one taken when she got her first AKC championship points in November. I got the photo last week. It was definitely not a pleasant experience the last time I posted photos of her.  That said, if you see her win photo, I'm not asking for a critique. I just want to share a brag with some other AKC show people!


that makes me sad. there you are just wanting to show others something you are proud of, but you don't want to because you're afraid you're going to get flamed? soooo not what forums should be like, but unfortunately, sometimes things do turn ugly unnecessarily.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

dogfaeries said:


> Knowing all that, I still am extremely hesitant to post my girl's win picture - the one taken when she got her first AKC championship points in November. I got the photo last week. It was definitely not a pleasant experience the last time I posted photos of her.


Why, what happened? Don't tell me you put up a photo in the "brag" section and instead got a critique...


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

No, I made the mistake of posting a show photo of her in a thread about ASL breeders. 

Someone was talking about how the ASL dogs didn't look like they could jump over anything, and I said my girl was very agile, and posted her photo. Someone else made a comment about the way she was holding her tail, so I posted a couple of candid photos of her hind end so you could see her tail set. It set off a rash of comments on how painful she looked.  And when I said hey remember this isn't a random dog on the internet you are insulting, it's MY dog, I was basically told to suck it up.

(and NO, I don't want to rehash that thread!)

Sooooo, I'm a little gun-shy. From now on, I'll stay out of the breeder threads, LOL, and will only post photos in Brags!


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

well , I think it was rude and I'm sorry people said such things..I don' remember the thread, but comments like that are really unnecessary..

Sorry people were nasty,,and well when I see something like that, I just figure they are jealous and have fat lazy dogs laying on the couch that are non productive in life


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dogfaeries - You should take into consideration the people who are posting before taking it to seriously. Are they always rude when they post? Do they really know anything about American Showlines? Do they show? What is their experience with their own dogs? Do they seem to have alot of problems with their dogs? etc.

Post your pic! She's a beautiful girl!


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Thanks, Diane! I appreciate your comment. 

I remember getting so upset in that thread that I considered dropping the forum altogether. I came from an Italian Greyhound forum where every IG photo gets lots of oohs and ahhs, LOL. Silly, I know. 

I was completely unaware of the split in the GSD between working and show lines when I joined this forum. It's not easy having two dogs that you consider beautiful, smart, athletic and highly trainable, and then find out that they are the redheaded stepchild of the GSD world. I simply was unaware. 

But now I know. Even so, the forum is still a great source of info, and I enjoy reading it.


----------



## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I'll scan Carly's Winner's Bitch photo and post it later in the conformation thread I started when she won her points.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I went back and looked,,I thought she was stunning And well, all I can say is consider the source and I wouldn't lose sleep over it

I have had those "outcasts" at one point or time in my life,,we live with them, we love them, it doesn't matter what others think and again I consider the source


----------



## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

ladyfreckles said:


> I'd like to add another thing:
> 
> It's best to try to relate to people, even if they are really new at this and you've been working with dogs for 20 years. When I was shadowing my trainer to learn how to give horseback riding lessons she told me that if you can't relate to the student, your student will never learn anything. I think that applies here, too. When I see advice being given, sometimes there's a blatant "wall" there. The person giving the advice may not realize it, but instead of working with the person who needs advice, they are policing them and lecturing. Recent studies are showing that even college lectures don't really work well for teaching. We need to avoid talking _at_ people and instead starting _conversing_ with them.
> 
> I know speaking from my experience, if you want me to never listen to you again, try talking down to me and lecturing me.


I totally agree with you... basic psychology. Tactful communication is key to healthy and productive relationships.


----------



## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

GSDGunner said:


> I don't take offense at someone telling me my dog is oversized. He IS oversized. He's definitely overweight. Something I'm working on now and seeing results. I can't help it that he had a leg injury that healed, then was re-injured causing a lot of inactivity for quite a while.
> 
> But I will take offense at my dog being called a monster or beast because he's oversized and too tall.
> 
> ...


I have one oversized GSD, from great stock. He is 115lbs and is the 4 legged love of my life. He's just a big cuddly bear and frankly we like them larger, however this last one we chose in the standard range, also great stock, but with stronger hips. My other two have/had DM and Frisco also has hip dysplasia. My Brandy was a big girl, just gorgeous, and tipped the scales at 112lbs. Her mother was large also.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

this title always makes me think of this


----------



## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I think it's interesting how people will fight to the death over some topics... and not be helpful really to anyone.
> 
> While other new members come to this forum specifically needing help and support and are IGNORED entirely. While at the same time there are battles and snarking going on all over the board.
> 
> ...


That's what I've noticed more than anything, some posts just receive no replies- and normally they're from new posters, while others go on and on. 

I end up replying mainly to requests for training advice - not because I'm a good trainer, I'm not, I only have my own experiences - but because not many others offer to help. 

What I really hate about this board is the sarcasm - and picking out little bits of someones post, taking it out of context, and trying to belittle them. Some posters are right - no matter what - and they will do whatever it takes to try and prove it even if that means being so picky that the other person just gives up. 

I was saddened last week when a new person asked for advice - he got one reply, and then two posters thought it funny to have ther own personal joke, that was followed by another two people having a row, which resulted in the moderater closing the thread. The OP had no help at all, and I'll be surprised if he's still on here. 
_____________
Sue


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

GSDGunner said:


> There is never a reason to refer to any dog as a monstrosity, beast, mutant, slow, big furry drooling idiot or a big furry sloth.


Unless you are referring to my boy Mauser ... because he IS all that. 

But I love him anyway.

I follow a modified version of the old adage "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".

If you can't say something *NICELY*, don't say anything at all.

There's a big difference to the person on the receiving end of the following two replies to their question of 'Should I breed my dog?' - even though the replies mean the same thing:

Answer A:
No - your dog is too big, washed out and fearful.​Answer B:
The reason to breed a dog is to IMPROVE the quality of dogs currently out there. You should read the GSD breed standard, look at your dog with an unemotional eye and honestly compare them to that standard. Is your dog within the height range that the standard calls for? What about their structure - coat coloring, length, overall body structure? Does your dog have the temperament described in the standard?​Sure, answer A is shorter and easier to say but answer B *EDUCATES*.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Sure, answer A is shorter and easier to say but answer B *EDUCATES*.


Exactly! The whole point of asking a question is to get a actual answer not just a yes or no

Sure, you might not like the answer you're given but noone's forcing you to do anything, use what you want


----------



## ladyfreckles (Nov 10, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Unless you are referring to my boy Mauser ... because he IS all that.
> 
> But I love him anyway.
> 
> ...


Exactly. 

I think a lot of really negative, vague, tactless and mean advice is followed by "why would you ask for advice if you didn't want to listen to it". I've also seen people who will never focus on what a person is doing right and instead pick apart what they are doing wrong with their dog. It is NEVER tactful to say you could "ruin" your dog by doing a certain thing. It's always better to say that it might be detrimental, or that it's better to wait until a certain age or work with along with a trainer. I'll see threads where people will ask several questions and everyone will jump in on one thing that the OP said and ignore their other, valid questions.

Example:
"Hey I'm just starting out with agility with my 4 month old. Can anyone give me tips/advice on how to train him to do the jumps, tunnels, teeter totter, etc?" 

Might be followed by a bunch of "OMG DON'T EVER HAVE A 4-MONTH-OLD JUMPING, THAT'S REALLY DANGEROUS AND COULD DAMAGE YOUR DOG FOR LIFE, JUST DON'T DO IT". Is that true? Yeah, it is. It's dangerous for undeveloped Shepherds to do agility jumps for obvious reasons. But nobody actually offered anything constructive to help the person accustom their dog to tunnels, or a teeter totter, or how to work _up_ to jumping. Instead it was judgment.

Judgment never helped anybody.


----------



## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

ladyfreckles said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I think a lot of really negative, vague, tactless and mean advice is followed by "why would you ask for advice if you didn't want to listen to it". I've also seen people who will never focus on what a person is doing right and instead pick apart what they are doing wrong with their dog. It is NEVER tactful to say you could "ruin" your dog by doing a certain thing. It's always better to say that it might be detrimental, or that it's better to wait until a certain age or work with along with a trainer. I'll see threads where people will ask several questions and everyone will jump in on one thing that the OP said and ignore their other, valid questions.


But haven't you noticed that when people begin to offer polite advise, the OP always comes back with reasons why this advise from experienced handlers is wrong or cannot be followed. It seems to me this is usually the case. The advise then deteriorates to outright criticism because experienced owners have tried to help and been dismissed by a first time GSD owner who admits he knows nothing. I'm very guilty of loosing patience with a lot of these new owners. They come here and say their baby was playing with the dog's food and got nipped. Someone advises they keep the kid away from the dog while it eats. No, the new owner wants that dog to submit to anything the child does. After reading several of these posts I get depressed and I'm sure others do too. The truth is these people should never own a GSD, they are unable to understand the relationship between dog and owner is about mutual respect. I think they really want a manual for a robot dog.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

A lot of very well versed, knowledgeable and seasoned handlers don't even give advise anymore, in case anybody has noticed...


----------

