# SV Judge on "The True Back of the GSD"



## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm sharing this because, like sloping top lines or not, I found this article very educational in that Mr. Donald discusses anatomy and locomotion to support his opinions. I appreciated his nod to horse anatomy since that's my background. Even if you think 'dead straight' is the way a GSDs back should be this is still a good educational read. Illustrative photos and diagrams to help those of us new to conformation understand the changes and reasoning behind them. 

My interpretation is that he is advocating moderation. 



> My concern and reason for writing this paper is not so much to do with the changes when they are in a moderate form and there are plenty of dogs that exhibit the changes referred to in this paper in a moderate form. My concern is that as happens with every trend, *the pendulum inevitable swings too far*, the pendulum swings to extremes and this is because the idiom 'more is better' is a natural human trait and there is no better example of this than in the sport of show dogs


 (emphasis mine)

I noticed at the show in NY, the SV judge there was rewarding the dogs with moderate top lines and croups.

If I am interpreting this correctly, it's a good trend, IMHnewbieO. 

The True Back of the German Shepherd Dog - The German Shepherd Dog


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

quote " I guess what I am trying to say is if the changes to the German Shepherd Show Dog have had no negative impact on the dogs health or its locomotive function, had no negative impact on the dog as a pet or a working dog, if the changes are as beneficial to the dog as the majority of show dog enthusiasts are saying then what people outside the breed think or say is disappointing , it is damaging and needs to be addressed through public education but if the bottom line is : if the changes have been to the betterment of the breed , if the breed is in better health and functionality as a consequence then it is neither here nor there what people outside the breed think is it? If the changes are in the best interests of the GSD then that is the most important thing of all , isn't it?"

why call upon the opinion of people Outside the Breed, which he brought up twice in this quoted piece ? Why not call upon the opinion of people Within the Breed, who do use dogs for functionality --- also known as working dog people?

here's your answer to the big SV denial and cover up --

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs

problems galore .

the gait isn't even recognizable as being canine, dogs high stepping like hackney ponies , no period of suspension - always 3 feet on the ground -- not at all natural . Not a conformation for distance and duration .


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Fundamentally he is agreeing that the extreme changes have been damaging though Carmen.  

Big picture he's supporting much of what you have said here in the past. He is advocating for moderation in structure.

Not sure where exactly you part ways with his summation? see edit below...

(note, his writing style is a bit rambly and not concise. I had to read it a couple of times to understand what he was getting at. The 'outside' people he refers to is the general public consensus regarding extreme backs in the WGSL dogs, which is negative.)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not really though -- 

quote "I think it would be fair to say that the photos representing the Circa 20's and 30's would represent the ideal GSD topline for most working dog enthusiasts, the photo of the 60's would be very much in the minds of many senior All Breeds Judges and the general public as an ideal GSD topline and the dog representing 2015 would represent for most of today's GSD show enthusiasts the desired topline "

right there EVERYONE but everyone except the show line enthusiasts is wrong . He sniffs at people "especially those of some age".

I read the piece several times , and the summation even more . ???? 

Plus you can not compare a dog's back to the fixed trunk of a horse . If you want comparison then you have to use a fellow canid -- free movement multiple 10's of miles per day --- wolf .
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

back and spine Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

The Evolution of the Back of the German Shepherd Dog - Page 5 in fact page 4 and all preceding and following have good information , including comments from Schweikert (50 year SV member sniff sniff - he smells old) and Goldfarb SV judge also.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup. In blue, I knew that might ruffle some feathers.

Here's the thing though, he *sniffs at the modern show people too*.

He also mentions the pendulum, which indeed swings both ways, WLs that are too extreme AND WGSL that are too extreme. 

Looking at his write up in the whole, he is doing more good then bad IMO. I can't stand the 'broken' backs and elongated what he calls "lumbar" backs. I used to refer to it as loin in horses. Long weak loins are bad for horses and dogs! 

For this reason I think his 'core' message is a good one, that hopefully pushes the WGSLs away from the extreme backs/croups. 





carmspack said:


> not really though --
> 
> quote "I think it would be fair to say that the photos representing the Circa 20's and 30's would represent the ideal GSD topline for most working dog enthusiasts, the photo of the 60's would be very much in the minds of many senior All Breeds Judges and the general public as an ideal GSD topline and the dog representing 2015 would represent for most of today's GSD show enthusiasts the desired topline "
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

He makes an argument against extreme ('dead' straight) backs as well. Some of them are inverted (sway) backed. That's not good either. Based on my history with horses his points are logical and not unfair to either WLs or WGSLs. He points out flaws equally.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Also, the main reason he brought up the structure of horses was the nomenclature of horses followed into dogs. Not necessarily the function....

He explains why loin doesn't apply as well to dogs. Hence the use of Lumbar back to create a more appropriate description of the dogs body vs the horse. I found it peronally interesting because I had no other way to describe that portion of a dog's back, so referred to it as the 'loin'.as a horse person. He argues a better term is 'lumbar back' as it applies to dogs and differentiates it that way.

So technically, he's agreeing with you.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here is what he states specifically to horse v dog comparison:



> In the horse the 'top line' consists of four distinct parts: the withers, the back, the loin and the croup and the start of the croup is deemed to be the highest point of the back. i.e. the 'iliac crest' or more commonly used term 'pin bone'.
> 
> The spine and its function in the horse is *completely different to the dog*, however many dog standards were written or influenced by horsemen using horse terminology and the includes Captain von Stephanitz, and this is the cause of much of the ambiguity and varying opinions that exist in dog terms and their definitions.


 (emphasis in blue mine)

What I found interesting, as a horse person, is the history of the terms used for dogs.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Gwen, 

So far I only had time to scan the article, but just from that alone I think it is by far the most thorough discussion of this issue I've seen yet. Thanks for posting the link--I will definitely go back and read it completely. I, too, appreciate the explanation in relation to the horse's spine, that's my real background also. The horse's spine was specifically designed to carry a weight just behind the withers (a rider), whereas the dog's spine is definitely different and not really comparable to the horse. I suspect that the horse terms being used for the dog came from the fact that, because of the importance of the horse in war, travel and work, more attention was put upon originally the horse, then later the dog, and thus the use of horse terms when more attention came to breeding standards for the dog. JMO.

Susan


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

The mention of the WLs is brief in the article. Mr. Donald focuses primarily on the WGSL and how the back has changed over the years.

Here is what he states, specifically referring to WGSL dogs as to why he does NOT agree with the downward bend in what he refers to as the 'lumbar' portion (second half if you will) of the back.



> To achieve optimum transmission, balance in corresponding joints and optimum transfer of energy from the hindquarters to the forequarters in a trotting dog when standing four square the spine, the hip and shoulder joint, and knee and elbow joint are best located on the same horizontal plane. A downward bend to the lumbar spine lowers the hip and knee position altering all of these optimum positions and relationships.


 (emphasis in blue mine) 

In other words here he is explaining why dogs with the extreme downward sloping top lines are NOT good. He is not talking about WLs here at all.

I wanted to clarify that Carmen. He clearly is far more worried about what is going on with the WGSL then WLs. 

This article is really about what has happened to the WGSL dogs and IMHO worth the time to read over a time or two even.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup: Yup agree on the horse/terminology aspect.

I think people are so used to squaring off in corners that this article may take them by surprise if they give it a chance and read it through a couple of times. It really is pushing against the WGSL show people and the SV......



Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Gwen,
> 
> So far I only had time to scan the article, but just from that alone I think it is by far the most thorough discussion of this issue I've seen yet. Thanks for posting the link--I will definitely go back and read it completely. I, too, appreciate the explanation in relation to the horse's spine, that's my real background also. The horse's spine was specifically designed to carry a weight just behind the withers (a rider), whereas the dog's spine is definitely different and not really comparable to the horse. I suspect that the horse terms being used for the dog came from the fact that, because of the importance of the horse in war, travel and work, more attention was put upon originally the horse, then later the dog, and thus the use of horse terms when more attention came to breeding standards for the dog. JMO.
> 
> Susan


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I stumbled upon that article a while ago and found it really interesting.I've never understood why any animal is "redesigned" to be aesthetically pleasing to the detriment of it's health and temperament.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

cool!  When did you stumble upon it? 

As for aesthetics, some breeds are much worse off, Old English Bulldogs. Yet people still love them. 

What I take away from this is (as I agree with Mr. Donald) the extreme slope and steep croups are not only functionally lacking, they are ugly too.

Lose, lose situation. Why it got to the extreme it did? Hooman Beans. = 



dogma13 said:


> I stumbled upon that article a while ago and found it really interesting.I've never understood why any animal is "redesigned" to be aesthetically pleasing to the detriment of it's health and temperament.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> cool!  When did you stumble upon it?
> 
> As for aesthetics, some breeds are much worse off, Old English Bulldogs. Yet people still love them.
> 
> ...


The most recent "straight back" thread inspired me to look at "then and now" photos,one thing led to another.....I also ran across pics of bully breeds then/now.They looked SO much nicer and symmetrical.They actually had enough muzzle to breathe properly


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I read this article a couple weeks ago. It's interesting.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ahh O.K. Dogma. When you said "a while ago" I was wondering if it was this article because it was put on Mr. Donald's page just this month.

You guys are on the ball!  


Hi Michelle! Yup. 

I hope others will take the time to read it.


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Luis Donald is an Australian Sv judge who has contributed to the gsd more then any one I know. 
He has a life time of experience and has judged around the world.

Louis Donald has a reputation for being disliked because of his honesty and ability to speak up despite the controversy that will come with it.

Check out his website. He has lots of detailed articles about the modern German shepherd dog.
http://www.louisdonald.com


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I ran into this article about 3-4 months ago. My pup has a slight arch in her mid back and flat atw as observed here. So, I wanted to learn more and the images with white lines helped me hugely with his explanations. I'm not sure if it is included in this article or another of his, but I also got a lot out of his thoughts on the withers area. Again, he is in hot disagreement of this area. I would like to know why so many disagree with him. Other than if he is right - they've got a lot of work to do.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> As for aesthetics, some breeds are much worse off, Old English Bulldogs. Yet people still love them.


Well...Boxer guy here sooo of course I luv Bull Dogs!  Not saying they aren't a well "useless" Breed these days but...look at that face! :laugh:










I will never catch a wabbit!!


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## Blondi's Revenge (Jan 31, 2015)

Can sloped dogs run faster? I wouldn't imagine that to be the case


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## RobertJ (Jul 14, 2015)

*Specifically chose DDRs for the straight back*

Whether it's healthier or more traditional was not the reason for my decision - it was simply one of the physical traits I wanted my pups to have.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

This article is dated July 2015. 

Just to make sure we are discussing the same article. 




Stonevintage said:


> I ran into this article *about 3-4 months ago*. My pup has a slight arch in her mid back and flat atw as observed here. So, I wanted to learn more and the images with white lines helped me hugely with his explanations. I'm not sure if it is included in this article or another of his, but I also got a lot out of his thoughts on the withers area. Again, he is in hot disagreement of this area. I would like to know why so many disagree with him. Other than if he is right - they've got a lot of work to do.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

He does poo poo the extreme, but he comes across as justifying the changes made in the 60/70s, like he trying to convince himself it is a good thing to some degree?? Not really sure as he rambles around too much, either way I'm not buying it, even those dogs he thought were closer to ideal still looked unnatural to me.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Depends.

As illustrated in the article sight hounds have a pretty significant arch/slope and flexible spine and they are fast.

*BUT*....many other mechanics come into play.

Also depends on if the animal is a sprinter or endurance. 

GSD standard, as mentioned in the article refer to 'endurance trotter'. Therefore Mr. Donald discusses the advantages and disadvantages from that perspective.



Blondi's Revenge said:


> Can sloped dogs run faster? I wouldn't imagine that to be the case


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I don't think he's trying to convince himself. 

Remember the breed was changing and evolving while Captain Von Stephanitz was still alive and very much influential.

His objection to some of the earlier dogs was the inverted break (sway back) which is another extreme and not good either.




Nigel said:


> He does poo poo the extreme, but he comes across as justifying the changes made in the 60/70s, like he trying to convince himself it is a good thing to some degree?? Not really sure as he rambles around too much, either way I'm not buying it, even those dogs he thought were closer to ideal still looked unnatural to me.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Blondi's Revenge said:


> Can sloped dogs run faster? I wouldn't imagine that to be the case


First you have to understand why there is a slope in the back. Second, yes, a dog with proper rear end angulation can trot faster and conserve more energy than a dog that doesn't. This is easiest to see when you try to run with a dog and it either trots or paces. A dog with proper angulation can trot at a much higher speed and therefore conserve more energy and so it will go further than a dog that due to its angulation naturally wants to pace.

Top speed, a full sprint, isn't what a GSD was built for, and a difference of 5 mph as a top speed doesn't make much of a difference at the end of the day in regards to the jobs a GSD is asked to perform.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the information was out prior -- I was made aware of this some months ago -- .
There is an illustrated standard being published as we speak, should be out in October? 
This interpretation will be addressed.
Orthopedic surgeons consulted did not agree .

You can not compare equine to canine. More logical would have been for him to select ANY of the natural canid family which lives or dies by its ability to roam miles and miles and miles - which is a conformation and function that comes in handy for a herding breed . 

Nigel said "
He does poo poo the extreme, but he comes across as justifying the changes made in the 60/70s, like he trying to convince himself it is a good thing to some degree?? Not really sure as he rambles around too much, either way I'm not buying it, even those dogs he thought were closer to ideal still looked unnatural to me. "

and Robert J chose the DDR dogs which , like many working line dogs , do not at all resemble those that Donald talks about .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

an endurance trot is not speedy -- it is efficient ground covering , expansive free movement .


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Carmen, he isn't comparing horses to dogs. He's comparing terminology, only.

I think if you gave this article a chance you would agree with more then disagree, based on posts you've made in the past.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Also, in general, let's not personalize this. This isn't about our personal dogs, but rather the macro direction of the breed under the SV.

There's the free market where people can and do get the dog they feel fits their image of what a GSD should be.

Then there's the SV which controls a segment of that market and has influences in other markets.

If you look at this article from that perspective Mr. Donald is advocating for moderation. This a good thing. It's not going to change the trends over night but I do applaud a SV judge pushing this in the right direction. He is pretty blunt, given he's rocking the boat of his own organization.

Give credit where credit is due is all I am saying.

Change will be incremental, if pressure like this is applied over time.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Apparently so. :thumbup:

I read an article by him about new height measuring requirements that was pretty blunt. 




d4mmo said:


> Luis Donald is an Australian Sv judge who has contributed to the gsd more then any one I know.
> He has a life time of experience and has judged around the world.
> 
> Louis Donald has a reputation for being disliked because of his honesty and ability to speak up despite the controversy that will come with it.
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup: yup, GSDs are not rabbit or antelope hunters. 



martemchik said:


> First you have to understand why there is a slope in the back. Second, yes, a dog with proper rear end angulation can trot faster and conserve more energy than a dog that doesn't. This is easiest to see when you try to run with a dog and it either trots or paces. A dog with proper angulation can trot at a much higher speed and therefore conserve more energy and so it will go further than a dog that due to its angulation naturally wants to pace.
> 
> Top speed, a full sprint, isn't what a GSD was built for, *and a difference of 5 mph as a top speed doesn't make much of a difference at the end of the day in regards to the jobs a GSD is asked to perform*.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Remember the breed was changing and evolving while Captain Von Stephanitz was still alive and very much influential"

Part of that change was to make the dog prettier . This was the beginning of dog SHOWS --- a matter of pride . The people who actually used the dogs didn't seem to have a problem.


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## Cschmidt88 (Nov 24, 2010)

I really like Louis Donald, he is a nice guy and answered questions I had about my own dog. I like his honesty and willingness to bring up/confront controversial topics.

As with anything, it's rare to find someone you'll agree 100% with. But that doesn't mean you should discredit there information. There is a huge amount of knowledge in Louis' writing. I've found there is always something to learn even from those I dislike.

I also ordered his lecture video from Australia and really enjoyed it.


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

*The Back of the GSD - When a Lie becomes the Truth*

It is obvious from Mr. Donald's article that he is a pompous, arrogant individual who believes he is the supreme authority on the true back of the german shepherd due to his superior intellect, knowledge and experience. His smug, sarcastic put downs of anyone who disagrees with his point of view implying they are misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, or antiquated reveal his true character. His demeaning comments are a subtle, bullying technique used to silence the opposition. Like a master magician, he uses visual aids to dazzle the eye while wielding slight of hand to twist the truth. He speaks the truth when he says that the father of the german shepherd, Max von Stephanitz said, "The back should be moderately long, straight, level and strong." Then he dismisses the true standard with a wave of his hand by saying, "...but that is in the past,...". He dissects the word "back" like a skilled surgeon using a knife to change its meaning and make a simple sentence complicated. I'm sure Mr. Von Stephanitz never dreamed his clear and concise sentence would be distorted in such a way. Mr. Donald does explain when and why the true standard was changed. {Around 1970 under the Presidency of Dr. Rummel a slight slope to 'the back' which was created by a rise in the thoracic/anticlinal region of the back started to appear in a number of VA dogs, and in 1976* the standard was amended to include the words, "the backline should slope slightly from front to rear"} Mr. Donald then proceeds to put down anyone who does not accept that change in the standard, but why should anyone accept that change? Oh sure, the breeders who are part of perpetuating the change love it, but he shows clearly that the standard was changed to conform to what the breeders were showing. I ask you is that logical? Is it logical for a standard to conform to the breeders or should the breeders be forced to conform to the standard? If one or more respected breeders, (due to bad breeding or a genetic defect), create a malformation in a certain line and no one calls them out for it, but instead, authorities nod their heads in approval and rewrite the standard to include the malformation, then the defect becomes an accepted trait. The breeders, having now been affirmed by authorities, breed that line because of titles won in show, and begin to proliferate that deformity throughout the breed. Soon it can even become a dominant or a desired trait in the breed simply because the defect has been rewarded. The truth is if the authorities had disqualified the dogs who did not adhere to the standard back in the 1970's, we would not be seeing the 'roachback' in the gsd breed today. Breeders would not have bred any dogs with the 'roachback' defect if it had been frowned upon, and it would have eventually faded away.

The children's story, The Emperor's New Clothes, is a tale of human behavior where people who need to feel superior make a lie the truth, and then persuade everyone else to go along with that lie out of fear that they will appear ignorant if they speak the truth. Any adult with eyes and common sense or a child could tell you that the human selection of the "roachback" trait does nothing to improve the gsd breed. It is tragic that this fictional tale became fact in the history of the majestic and beautiful true german shepherd breed.

I had several links that gave great information on this topic, but I wasn't allowed to post them. Perhaps I can later.


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

*Links for The Back of the GSD - When a Lie becomes the Truth*

Here are the links that give additional information:

TOPLINE, BACK, SPINE: CORRECT GSD ILLUSTRATED | TheDogPlace.org

"Old Style v's Roach Back"

Decline of the German Shepherd Dog! | MYGERMANSHEPHERD.ORG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes - " breed that line because of titles won in show, and begin to proliferate that deformity throughout the breed. Soon it can even become a dominant or a desired trait in the breed simply because the defect has been rewarded. The truth is if the authorities had disqualified the dogs who did not adhere to the standard back in the 1970's, we would not be seeing the 'roachback' in the gsd breed today."

luckily acceptance of this , particular to WGSL , is not universally accepted . 

luckily acceptance of the loose ligamented , extreme angulation of American bred show lines , is not universally accepted.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If it's correct it will work, if it doesn't work, it's cosmetic and therefore faulty. If successful utility is not endgame of breeding it's the wrong fork in the road.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

shasha1020 said:


> *Links for The Back of the GSD - When a Lie becomes the Truth*
> 
> Here are the links that give additional information:
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting the links,I hadn't seen the dogplace article before.Excellent!


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

Your welcome Dogma! The gsd in your avatar is quite beautiful and unusual! Do you mind me asking what color it is? It almost looked black and white or silver, but the picture is so small, it's hard to tell, and when I clicked on it, it wouldn't enlarge.


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

Never mind Dogma. I looked below your message and saw where it said Samson - black and silver, so I'm guessing that's Samson. Gorgeous animal!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

shasha1020 said:


> Never mind Dogma. I looked below your message and saw where it said Samson - black and silver, so I'm guessing that's Samson. Gorgeous animal!


Thanks Sasha!We think he's beautiful tooWas trying to attach a more recent pic but my tablet is uncooperative today.He was 4 mths old in the avatar pic,now he's 18 mths.Another time I guess.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so what happens when you promote something that is inherently wrong , yet necessary to join the "winners' club" (if you care) , that chops genetic diversity to a sliver , basically eliminates diversity altogether?

that is what has happened .


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

Yes Carmen!!!!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Wow, do you treat all people you disagree with this way? You have no way of knowing if he is 'pompous' and 'arrogant'. Ad hominem attacks all the way.

Perhaps his intellect and experience DO count for something and as such DO give his opinions more weight. 

In addition to the fact he IS promoting moderation in the West German Showline dogs and disagrees with those promoting extreme toplines. I'm sure the people who like the extreme top lines get *miffed* as well. 

Good lord people.




shasha1020 said:


> *It is obvious from Mr. Donald's article that he is a pompous, arrogant individual who believes he is the supreme authority on the true back of the german shepherd due to his superior intellect, knowledge and experience.* His smug, sarcastic put downs of anyone who disagrees with his point of view implying they are misinformed, uneducated, unintelligent, or antiquated reveal his true character. His demeaning comments are a subtle, bullying technique used to silence the opposition. Like a master magician, he uses visual aids to dazzle the eye while wielding slight of hand to twist the truth. He speaks the truth when he says that the father of the german shepherd, Max von Stephanitz said, "The back should be moderately long, straight, level and strong." Then he dismisses the true standard with a wave of his hand by saying, "...but that is in the past,...". He dissects the word "back" like a skilled surgeon using a knife to change its meaning and make a simple sentence complicated. I'm sure Mr. Von Stephanitz never dreamed his clear and concise sentence would be distorted in such a way. Mr. Donald does explain when and why the true standard was changed. {Around 1970 under the Presidency of Dr. Rummel a slight slope to 'the back' which was created by a rise in the thoracic/anticlinal region of the back started to appear in a number of VA dogs, and in 1976* the standard was amended to include the words, "the backline should slope slightly from front to rear"} Mr. Donald then proceeds to put down anyone who does not accept that change in the standard, but why should anyone accept that change? Oh sure, the breeders who are part of perpetuating the change love it, but he shows clearly that the standard was changed to conform to what the breeders were showing. I ask you is that logical? Is it logical for a standard to conform to the breeders or should the breeders be forced to conform to the standard? If one or more respected breeders, (due to bad breeding or a genetic defect), create a malformation in a certain line and no one calls them out for it, but instead, authorities nod their heads in approval and rewrite the standard to include the malformation, then the defect becomes an accepted trait. The breeders, having now been affirmed by authorities, breed that line because of titles won in show, and begin to proliferate that deformity throughout the breed. Soon it can even become a dominant or a desired trait in the breed simply because the defect has been rewarded. The truth is if the authorities had disqualified the dogs who did not adhere to the standard back in the 1970's, we would not be seeing the 'roachback' in the gsd breed today. Breeders would not have bred any dogs with the 'roachback' defect if it had been frowned upon, and it would have eventually faded away.
> 
> The children's story, The Emperor's New Clothes, is a tale of human behavior where people who need to feel superior make a lie the truth, and then persuade everyone else to go along with that lie out of fear that they will appear ignorant if they speak the truth. Any adult with eyes and common sense or a child could tell you that the human selection of the "roachback" trait does nothing to improve the gsd breed. It is tragic that this fictional tale became fact in the history of the majestic and beautiful true german shepherd breed.
> 
> I had several links that gave great information on this topic, but I wasn't allowed to post them. Perhaps I can later.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

BTW, agree Dogma's dog is beautiful, however black and silver coat colors are not what Max bred for either. 

Ya know.



shasha1020 said:


> Never mind Dogma. I looked below your message and saw where it said Samson - black and silver, so I'm guessing that's Samson. Gorgeous animal!


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

Endurance trotting is not a trotting race to be the fastest – it is a functional gait. The show fanciers seem to think of GSD trotting speed like horse harness racers do, the faster the better. Not so.. 

Now look at the flying trot of this Seppala sleddog, Ditka of Seppala, "pulling a clunky three-wheel rig on a gravel road in a warm autumn day all by himself -- at a "flying trot":
DITKO OF SEPPALA - The SSSD Ideal

"Ditko had beautiful movement. I once entered him in a southern Ontario dog show under judge Gordon Garrett, a German Shepherd Dog breeder to whom correct movement was very important. Ditko took Winners Dog (at well over ten years of age), taking the points away from several black and white showdogs (to their owners' great indignation), despite what the show people saw as his "ugly brownish colour" -- strictly on his lovely movement, I rather suspect. One Siberian Husky fancier told me, "Oh, you've just got to be joking -- THAT can't be a Siberian Husky!"

Yay, Gordon Garrett!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Gord Garrett was a good friend of mine . Every show we were at we found each other and hung out.

That is a beautiful example of suspended trot -- very natural and efficient , head placed in line with spine .


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## Linda J Shaw (Jan 4, 2016)

*Illustrations of the normal spine*

I've posted a free pdf that includes illustrations of the skeletal structure of both the wolf and GSD, standing naturally and, in the case of the GSD, posed. Shows pretty clearly when the back is straight and level, and when it slopes - slightly.

www.shawlein.com

It's about 4MB in size, and you will need Adobe Reader to open it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

That's great Linda.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Yeah, it's great.....really comprehensive and answers some of my questions just breezing through it. I'll take some time and take it all in.

Thanks,

SuperG


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Wow, do you treat all people you disagree with this way? You have no way of knowing if he is 'pompous' and 'arrogant'. Ad hominem attacks all the way.
> 
> Perhaps his intellect and experience DO count for something and as such DO give his opinions more weight.
> 
> ...


Gwenhwyfair, I was quite shocked by your response to me. So much so, that I haven't come back to this forum until now. I felt completely attacked by you and it was confusing to me since I wasn't critiquing an article written by you. If I had gotten this response from the author of that article, then I would have understood the anger behind it, but quite honestly, I wouldn't have sent my critique to the author written in exactly the same way because I never try to purposefully seek to offend or hurt others. For instance, I would never comment in a sarcastic, snide or negative way on a compliment or something else you said to another forum member. That is not my nature. I am not mean-spirited, but I was and am filled with passion, anger and disgust at what has been done to the german shepherd breed through the years, primarily by showline breeders and the judges who chose the "best of the breed". That passion and anger was apparent in my critique. It was not directed at you, but for whatever reason, you responded as though it was, so I apologize. I hate the nasty way that people talk to one another on social media, and I tend to avoid confrontation. That is why I left the forum. Also, sometimes, no answer is the best answer. If you had written the article, I would have toned down my critique in such a way as to get my point across without you feeling personally attacked. Since I wasn't sending the critique to the author, I felt I could be completely honest in my response. I was critiquing the article based on word choice, voice and tone of the article and I still stand behind what I said, although, perhaps in retrospect, I should have said, "based on word choice, tone, and voice, the author *appears to be*....". In any case, it was quite apparent that I definitely offended you and for that I am truly sorry. I did not join the forum to get into confrontations with anyone on this forum or to personally offend anyone on this forum. I simply wanted to be part of a group of people who love german shepherds as I do.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oy. :crazy: Me offended? I've taken a lot more on this forum then that LOL! I would be long gone if I were that sensitive. My very first post I got ripped into because I made a little joke about not needing a police dog.

You called him 'arrogant' among other things rather then addressing the substance of the article yet you get upset that I point that out?

See the problem here? 

Anyhoo....

This is going off topic so I'll leave it at that.





shasha1020 said:


> Gwenhwyfair, I was quite shocked by your response to me. So much so, that I haven't come back to this forum until now. I felt completely attacked by you and it was confusing to me since I wasn't critiquing an article written by you. If I had gotten this response from the author of that article, then I would have understood the anger behind it, but quite honestly, I wouldn't have sent my critique to the author written in exactly the same way because I never try to purposefully seek to offend or hurt others. For instance, I would never comment in a sarcastic, snide or negative way on a compliment or something else you said to another forum member. That is not my nature. I am not mean-spirited, but I was and am filled with passion, anger and disgust at what has been done to the german shepherd breed through the years, primarily by showline breeders and the judges who chose the "best of the breed". That passion and anger was apparent in my critique. It was not directed at you, but for whatever reason, you responded as though it was, so I apologize. I hate the nasty way that people talk to one another on social media, and I tend to avoid confrontation. That is why I left the forum. Also, sometimes, no answer is the best answer. If you had written the article, I would have toned down my critique in such a way as to get my point across without you feeling personally attacked. Since I wasn't sending the critique to the author, I felt I could be completely honest in my response. I was critiquing the article based on word choice, voice and tone of the article and I still stand behind what I said, although, perhaps in retrospect, I should have said, "based on word choice, tone, and voice, the author *appears to be*....". In any case, it was quite apparent that I definitely offended you and for that I am truly sorry. I did not join the forum to get into confrontations with anyone on this forum or to personally offend anyone on this forum. I simply wanted to be part of a group of people who love german shepherds as I do.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is where the SV GSD showline standard lands you in other countries where it isn't going to be acceptable anymore !
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/625754-show-line-conformation.html


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It is getting rather embarrassing.


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

Linda J Shaw said:


> I've posted a free pdf that includes illustrations of the skeletal structure of both the wolf and GSD, standing naturally and, in the case of the GSD, posed. Shows pretty clearly when the back is straight and level, and when it slopes - slightly.
> 
> www.shawlein.com
> 
> It's about 4MB in size, and you will need Adobe Reader to open it.


Linda, this is wonderful!!!! Thank you for producing such a comprehensive work on our beloved breed. All german shepherd lovers are indebted to you!!!!


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## shasha1020 (May 26, 2015)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oy. :crazy: Me offended? I've taken a lot more on this forum then that LOL! I would be long gone if I were that sensitive. My very first post I got ripped into because I made a little joke about not needing a police dog.
> 
> You called him 'arrogant' among other things rather then addressing the substance of the article yet you get upset that I point that out?
> 
> ...


Yes, I definitely see the problem here... I addressed *both the content and the tone *of the article in dissecting detail in that first post. I explained my choice of adjectives in my post to you. I see no need to repeat myself. I extended an olive branch to you which you did not accept. I live by the creed, "Inasmuch as it is possible, be at peace with all men." Sometimes it is not possible. I can agree to disagree. I will leave it at that.


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## edanzanders (Mar 23, 2015)

I suppose for me, the looming question is: when the rubber meets the road, is anyone out in the real world consistently choosing show line dogs for any kind of serious work, where there is money on the line. We could argue the minutia of obscure science until we are blue in the face, but the reality is that people who rely on working dogs for a living aren't going to dog shows looking for esthetically correct flying trots for their work prospects.

The fact that working dog people stay far away from this kind of thing, and that the show ring has been the primary source of these conformation changes over the years makes the whole argument a highly specious one.

If all these changes truly improved the working ability of these dogs, why in the world would there be a need for a separate work line. My two cents, for what they are worth.


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## RunShepherdRun (Oct 5, 2009)

To me the show lines as the "separate lines" as they are recent diversions from the breed standard. Watching them breaks my heart.

Mr MacDonald is solidly a part of the GSD show establishment, and it's from there that he argues against the recent most extreme distortions. What he favors is still a diversion from the functional working dog described in the older breed standard.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

How his tone is perceived is subjective. Look up "Hostile Media Affect". I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm not a breeder, I have two WGSL dogs but I also have been within a hair breadth of owning WLs twice. 

Different reasons caused me to not get one, both times having to do with matters not really related to the dogs but timing and health issues I was having.

The reason I shared this article was two fold.

First: I found it to be informative. He is a SV judge with many years of experience and the discussion has merit. I'm not a conformation expert by a long shot but I do know more then an awful lot of people who come on here saying rear angulation "causes" hip dysplasia, or going on about "roach backs". They are just repeating what they heard elsewhere without actually studying.

Second: Just because the author is *not* slamming the SLs and grinding them into the dirt with his heel as some would have him, doesn't mean he condones what is happening. In fact he is advocating for moderation.

The SLs, German and American aren't going to just disappear overnight because people don't like them. I'm not going to ignore reality. So a realistic long view would be supportive of moderation as this Judge is actually proposing.

One would think?

LLAP.



shasha1020 said:


> Yes, I definitely see the problem here... I addressed *both the content and the tone *of the article in dissecting detail in that first post. I explained my choice of adjectives in my post to you. I see no need to repeat myself. I extended an olive branch to you which you did not accept. I live by the creed, "Inasmuch as it is possible, be at peace with all men." Sometimes it is not possible. I can agree to disagree. I will leave it at that.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Here's another way to frame that question. How many out there actually _really need or want_ a dog for serious work?

There in is the rub.

Just look at the WL threads about prey vs civil and defense. Even WL sport people and those who would have a dog for the military or police can't agree.

It's fragmented market, which veers away from the topic here, but you have small pool of people who actually "do" serious work with their GSDs. Then you have small pool of people who are serious about bite sports.

The rest want pets, companions.

So it would follow, if we only bred dogs for the 'serious' work then there would be far fewer GSD owners.

The question is, is that a good thing? 

I'm voting no. I'm a believer in the free market. Yes it's not a perfect system, yes some show dogs have way too extreme conformation but also ask some WL people and they will tell you about extreme drives/temperament issues too.

All one can do is support breeders who aren't going for extremes (though some working dog and sport dog people do want extremes....) but for the general majority of GSD owners that's the best way to go given the realities of the current pet ownership in most developed countries.




edanzanders said:


> I suppose for me, the looming question is: when the rubber meets the road, *is anyone out in the real world consistently choosing show line dogs for any kind of serious work*, where there is money on the line. We could argue the minutia of obscure science until we are blue in the face, but the reality is that people who rely on working dogs for a living aren't going to dog shows looking for esthetically correct flying trots for their work prospects.
> 
> The fact that working dog people stay far away from this kind of thing, and that the show ring has been the primary source of these conformation changes over the years makes the whole argument a highly specious one.
> 
> If all these changes truly improved the working ability of these dogs, why in the world would there be a need for a separate work line. My two cents, for what they are worth.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

who said there has to be a sacrifice , an either or .

there are many people who have working line dogs and are blessed with reliable , healthy, mentally and physically sound family companions .

there is an ideal -- a breed standard for a reason.

when the SV puts on its big, spectacular event , of the Sieger show , the promotion is not the PET show --- it represents the search for a physical ideal matched against a breed standard.
mucho $$$$$


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You know what Carmen, it's beyond your or my control unless someone wants to have some sort of breeder police enforcement. Everything is splintered these days, from TV to politics, training dogs to owning dogs. You call it 'sacrafice' but after years of watching you guys debate this I call it reality.

You WL guys can't agree on what drives and temperaments and definition of what they should be and have...everyone thinks they are inside Max von Stephanitz's head.

Most people just want pets and they end up with Labs (number 1 breed for many, many years) for a reason.

I don't seeing it changing in the foreseeable future. 



carmspack said:


> who said there has to be a sacrifice , an either or .
> 
> there are many people who have working line dogs and are blessed with reliable , healthy, mentally and physically sound family companions .
> 
> there is an ideal -- a breed standard for a reason.


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## edanzanders (Mar 23, 2015)

To be fair, since the topic was "conformation," my question was directly related to the physical well-being of the dogs. What kind of conformation is more likely to make a dog more physically fit? I thought that is what the originally quoted article was arguing. Personally, I see the original breed standard as being perfectly in keeping with naturally fit and comfortable GSDs. The changes seen with increasing frequency in the show ring, honestly do not seem to provide any real world physical advantage, but only "theoretically" overcompensates one particular gait to the detriment of all the others. The fact that WL dogs are unanimously relied upon for actual real world tasks all over the world, is a testament to their physical fitness. Is there anyone out there seriously arguing that WL dogs are somehow physically unfit due to their conformation? They would be unsuitable for real life work if they were.

Temperament is perhaps a separate issue, but in my opinion a valid one, since many WL dogs are too much dog for the average family, due to a lack of proper training -- which admittedly, not many dog owners do enough of. That said, do SV lines consistently produce dogs whose nerves make them ideal family companions? Perhaps that is a good question for a separate thread.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

edanzanders said:


> To be fair, since the topic was "conformation," my question was directly related to the physical well-being of the dogs. *What kind of conformation is more likely to make a dog more physically fit? *I thought that is what the originally quoted article was arguing. Personally, I see the original breed standard as being perfectly in keeping with naturally fit and comfortable GSDs. *The changes seen with increasing frequency in the show ring,* honestly do not seem to provide any real world physical advantage, but only "theoretically" overcompensates one particular gait to the detriment of all the others. The fact that WL dogs are unanimously relied upon for actual real world tasks all over the world, is a testament to their physical fitness. Is there anyone out there seriously arguing that WL dogs are somehow physically unfit due to their conformation? They would be unsuitable for real life work if they were.


That's still a loaded (but good ) question. It's loaded because you're basing it on a false assumption, that the GSDs in the show ring (increasing frequency) are predominantly SO extreme that it would affect their well being and longevity for 'a job'.

What do you base that assumption on? 

Sure, there are some really bad examples out there that do win. But I've been to AKC and now several SV shows and I have to say, the dogs I saw at these shows were not as extreme, across the board, as some of the pics and stories we read and hear about.

I also note that some WLs with atrocious conformation get a complete pass from people who don't study conformation just because they are WLs.

That's the positive aspect of the article, a SV judge is arguing *for* moderation.



> Temperament is perhaps a separate issue, but in my opinion a valid one, since many *WL dogs are too much dog for the average family, due to a lack of proper training -- which admittedly, not many dog owners do enough of.* That said, *do SV lines consistently produce dogs whose nerves make them ideal family companions?* Perhaps that is a good question for a separate thread.


In red, I agree with you on this., to a point. But yes, a lot of times a WL failing in a family is due to lack of training and dedication.

In purple, just like with the WLs, it depends on the lines, breeder, owner and genetic lottery. Always a possibility of a bad apple in an otherwise good litter.

We had a lady come on here this past Dec. She was having major problems with a WGSL and 'aggression'. I referred her to a trainer which to her credit she did call for help. I happened to get to catch up with that trainer in person a month later. IPO/WL guy too. He said the dog is very nice, owners were lacking a lot in knowledge, didn't follow through on instructions and the problems could be solved easily with consistent good training. Of course the breeder was being blamed for producing a 'bad dog'.

So how do you tease that sort of thing out? It's really hard.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

BTW, I used to think the same way. I thought all show dogs were terrible examples. I really was on that band wagon. 

What changed my mind was going to shows, seeing the dogs, talking with dedicated breeders and over time being around more and more GSDs outside of the BYB dogs I was used to seeing.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"that the GSDs in the show ring (increasing frequency) are predominantly SO extreme that it would affect their well being and longevity for 'a job'."

unfortunately they aren't bred for a job --- because if they had job application you would start to see the effects of physical extremes


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

But.....people say that about WLs too, they can't work.

:shrug:

I note that you don't say much about ASLs or CSLs even though they are even less common, rare one could say, in bite sport and police/military work.

WGSL and SV you are very negative though.

The fact of the matter is SLs aren't as extreme in conformation across the board as is often portrayed. There are a lot of breeders who do breed for moderate conformation. There are also WLs that have respectable showings in the SV ring. I saw Wallace Payne's dog get a V, I was at the show, saw it with my own eyes. 

So a lot of the discussion on the internet, I've learned, is exaggerated when compared to what I've seen now multiple times at multiple venues.

So for anyone who is truly concerned about this topic I would urge them to go to shows, talk with breeders and learn about conformation for themselves. It takes some time but IMO is worth it.






carmspack said:


> "that the GSDs in the show ring (increasing frequency) are predominantly SO extreme that it would affect their well being and longevity for 'a job'."
> 
> unfortunately they aren't bred for a job --- because if they had job application you would start to see the effects of physical extremes


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said "I note that you don't say much about ASLs or CSLs even though they are even less common, rare one could say, in bite sport and police/military work.

WGSL and SV you are very negative though."

answer ---

because the American and Canadian show lines have no pretense , have no grand organization such as the SV , which proclaim that they are meant for work , nor dogs supported as workable by having IPO titles --- held in a different arena - their own group , their own peers , not in open competition.

In all the club trials that I have attended there has been O N E , WGSL dog in competition , who did have an IPO - who was so abysmally bad that it was comical . The dog was totally confused ---

There was laughter -- good natured -- even from the owner/handler/competitor , who called out loudly , hey it's a show line what do you expect --- 

unfortunately to complete the picture the dog was pretty roached to boot


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## edanzanders (Mar 23, 2015)

carmspack said:


> There was laughter -- good natured -- even from the owner/handler/competitor , who called out loudly , hey it's a show line what do you expect.


Similar thing happened while a trainer friend of mine and I visited breeders in France who specialized in both show and work lines. They would demonstrate one of their champions from each line, and my friend suited up and worked with them, while I filmed. Now, my understanding is that IPO is a requirement for show GSD in France. The breeder's response to their show dog's performances was typically "not too bad for a show dog!" Their WL dogs were, of course, typically on top.

One side observation, though, many of the French dogs I saw had facial features that made them look more like a fox than a dog. Not sure what that was about. :crazy:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I have learned that people say all kinds of things, but unless it's supported by a consistent application then that's all it is. Many SL dogs are more moderate than others physically, but that doesn't mean they would hold up to the physical application of LE/work. Most working venues don't care about what lines a dog comes from, most LE only know SL these days because so many don't measure up they have connected the dots. But these people don't know a DDR dog either black sable or Bl and Tn, from a Swedish Black and Tan, from aCzech sable from a European WL, except that if it works they will take it. If enough ASL or WGSL dogs were successful when presented to working people they would view them entirely differently. But if you test 10 of a kind and only one makes the grade, then eventually you cease to be interested in that type. The dogs that do actual working possess working structure, there are no hidden cache/lines of dogs that potentially have the structure but are just not used. If they are not used, there is a reason, and exceptions don't change that situation. Like I said, people can say anything, but we have concrete examples of what is and what can.....the rest is just talk.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

cliffson1 said:


> I have learned that people say all kinds of things, but unless it's supported by a consistent application then that's all it is. Many SL dogs are more moderate than others physically, but that doesn't mean they would hold up to the physical application of LE/work. Most working venues don't care about what lines a dog comes from, most LE only know SL these days because so many don't measure up they have connected the dots. But these people don't know a DDR dog either black sable or Bl and Tn, from a Swedish Black and Tan, from aCzech sable from a European WL, except that if it works they will take it. If enough ASL or WGSL dogs were successful when presented to working people they would view them entirely differently. But if you test 10 of a kind and only one makes the grade, then eventually you cease to be interested in that type. The dogs that do actual working possess working structure, there are no hidden cache/lines of dogs that potentially have the structure but are just not used. If they are not used, there is a reason, and exceptions don't change that situation. Like I said, people can say anything, but we have concrete examples of what is and what can.....the rest is just talk.


 Very well said Cliff. The proof is in the pudding.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

So it's o.k. if (and I'm so sorry ASL friends....I know you guys are competing in different venues like herding but I gotta make a point) they don't even try to pass what originally was a test for the breed, Schutzhund.


It's not o.k. if they try and some individual dogs or even kennels, produce dogs that can't pass. 


BTW- just being a WL doesn't mean they can do the work either, hence you guys always talking about how watered down WLs are and the prey drive vs civil. 


Police and such have been complaining about WLs too and this whole WL dogs that can really work are so rare that they have to have malis and dutchies now. 


After following all this for quite a few years now, it's a lot of zero sum thinking and some chicken little type exaggeration too.


I like a lot of what you post Carmen but I think on this, over time, I have drawn the conclusion that no one in this breed will ever be happy with what the 'other' guy is breeding.


Since I'm not the 'other' guy really, I see the positives, WL dogs doing well in the SV show ring and SL breeders that really do care about moderate conformation, work ability and temperament.






carmspack said:


> Gwenhwyfair said "I note that you don't say much about ASLs or CSLs even though they are even less common, rare one could say, in bite sport and police/military work.
> 
> WGSL and SV you are very negative though."
> 
> ...


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are many asl breeders who title there dogs in obedience, hearding, agility, also become Cadaver dogs. There are many more ways to prove oneself. It is good to set goals and have standards even if they are different. The schutzhund test isn't a bible for all. It certainly not a certain guarantee stability in a dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup and the same holds true for WGSLs that work/compete in herding, OB and SAR as well. I met a ASL SAR dog at an AKC show too, btw.


Further, just because the dog is a WL doesn't automatically guarantee it will be a good dog for work or IPO either. 


The problem is the bar, or standard keeps moving, including for WLs. See all those discussions about prey vs civil, sport vs "real" dogs. 


So much infighting in this breed, from all corners. So when I see a positive trend I think we should be happy about it, but that's just little ole me.




Jenny720 said:


> There are many asl breeders who title there dogs in obedience, hearding, agility, also become Cadaver dogs. There are many more ways to prove oneself. It is good to set goals and have standards even if they are different. The schutzhund test isn't a bible for all. It certainly not a certain guarantee stability in a dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup and the same holds true for WGSLs that work/compete in herding, OB and SAR as well. I met a ASL SAR dog at an AKC show too, btw.
> 
> 
> Further, just because the dog is a WL doesn't automatically guarantee it will be a good dog for work or IPO either.
> ...


Yes wgsl as well- What the dog knows- by cat warren - great book about her wgsl cadaver dog. Yes not all working lines are fit for work. I am in complete agreement and pretty disappointed and embarrassed with all the infighting within the breed. It is not good for the Breed as a whole and nothing good will come out of it. I love all the lines and as I said many times before each line has something great to offer.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I met a ASL SAR dog at an AKC show too, btw.


This caught my eye! 

Russell's litter sister is a SAR dog. They are ASL, out of my AKC champion Carly. Nice dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You will never see me base a dog's worth on the lines they are from. I personally think that those that constantly speak of lines,( which are divisions and are NOT in the standard for the breed), do a disservice to the breed as a whole. There are GS that closely represent what the standard says the breed should reflect, and there are GS that through no fault of their own, are lacking in vital points of breed standard but nonetheless make wonderful pets and sometimes workers, but shouldn't be bred. Breed representative dogs can be found in any supposed line, but some breeding patterns have led to a decline in the breed's ability to be functional in what the standard says they should be. But GS are like people in my experience, that is those with the most extreme type or opinion, really do not reflect the breed.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I desperately want you to meet Mikasa, Cliff


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

:smile2:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Fair enough Cliff! 


I think, however, that we should reward breeders who are pushing for moderation in the SLs. Breeders who really do care about the work ethic of their dogs. Now that I've had time to get involved, IRL, go to shows and trials, I can see they are out there. Negatives tend to get exaggerated online.


I debated posting this article for several days prior to actually posting it, because people tend to go into their respective corners and indeed, we ended up with some ad hominem type reactions. 


The two reasons I posted this article is because (though admittedly the prose style in it is a bit tortured) the author, a SV judge, is advocating for moderation. The second reason was I found it informative, I learned from reading it. 


Let's not allow perfect to become the enemy of good, it is very rare that anything is perfect in life. No one will ever truly happy with all the dogs out there. There will always be BYBs, there will always be people who value looks over work ethic in dogs. Bashing SLs isn't going to change this reality, so the best thing a person who is not a breeder can do is educate themselves about conformation and advocate for moderation in conformation. 


One Breed, One Love as I have learned. :smile2:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

One breed one love- I like that maybe I will get a t- shirt that says that!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

If you do let me know, I'll get one too! :grin2:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

:grin2:


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Gwenfair, I don't feel bashing any dog is good, I do feel that objective analysis of the breed or individual dogs is not bashing. I do think that when personal likes are more important than maintaining dog as standard explains is detrimental unless the likes are based on the standard.....Elsewise why even have a standard, why not have everyone's personal preference as acceptable. I usually only post in the breeders section, because it is a passion with me. But breeders have a higher responsibility,( and logically knowledge) than pet owners or even show/sport handlers. Of course I understand that logic doesn't always prevail, but though I feel that bashing any dog is rude and tasteless, I also feel that condoning the breeding of GS that are incapable of functionality is as detrimental to breed as any BYB regardless of the lines. Any line is capable of producing individual dogs that aren't functional, but this must always be the exception and not the norm. We must never,imo, justify our breedings of any line with exceptions.


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## Mrs.P (Nov 19, 2012)

A good dog is a good dog.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I want an Enzo t-shirt too! :grin2:






Mrs.P said:


> A good dog is a good dog.


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