# What is a "firm" correction really?



## AthenaClimbs (Aug 19, 2011)

I've heard you have to be firm and stern with a german shepherd but can someone elaborate? I can give you some background.
I have an almost 6 month old girl. I have never struck her except batted her on the nose when she's a terror outside and inside (jumping up and biting me everywhere). When I am laying on the couch it is impossible for her to do anything else, she IMMEDIATELY jumps up on top of me and tries to engage with me/play/even bite (and yes I play with her but I can only play ball for so long and want some quiet time too) I'd really prefer not to have to keep her in her crate all the time (unless that's what folks do with a pup this age)! She's well exercised and we play together and I train with her through out the day. We often put her in a crate to maintain our sanity but I know that's not the right fix only a temporary resolution. When she jumps on me on the couch, i "firmly" yell NO and off and if falls on deaf ears. I pull her off on her leash and she jumps back up excitedly. How firm exactly do I need to be, we've been trying to teach her and redirect her from doing this for months and she's just not getting it. So what is wrong with my "firm" no and off. 

Can you explain how you execute a firm correction? I know you all mentioned you have to be extra firm with a GSD but it seems like the corrections I'm hearing on this board are relevant to any breed being corrected... can someone elaborate?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

The problem with your question is that being firm can mean different things to different people. There simply is no one size fits all answer. Strictly controlling the dog's environment with rules and structure as in NILIF would be the least physical way of being firm, the opposite end of the spectrum might be hard corrections with a prong collar. At her age, I'd be more inclined towards the former than the latter. Putting her on a leash so you can prevent her from practicing behavior you don't like would be something to consider. 

And I don't see anything wrong with giving her a little break in the crate from time to time, I don't see it as a temporary resolution, teaching her to hang out and chill is a good thing, especially if it helps save your sanity! I know when my puppies got out of control in the evening sometimes the only thing to do was to put them away for awhile while we both regrouped.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Depends on the dog and how handler hard she is. I have one dog for whom a firm correction is a loud "no!" and a good stare. I have another one for whom a firm correction involves popping the prong hard enough to make him yelp. If I tried that with the first dog, he'd shut down completely. If I tried a hard stare and a loud "no" with the second one, he wouldn't even notice.


When she jumps on the couch, don't yell "no." Use your body space to push her off the couch. Or grab her by the scruff and drag her off.


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## AthenaClimbs (Aug 19, 2011)

I've tried the scruff, it only makes her more agitated and bite my hand. Plus I don't want to continue that as I feel it may make her not trust me when I go near her neck (to pop on the leash/collar). Any type of physical contact excites her further. I wish I knew how to convey it's not a game to me.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

A six month old puppy doesn't need a "firm correction" when she's jumping around because she's so excited to be on the leash. She needs her excitement level brought down a couple of notches. What is she hoping to gain from jumping around like an idiot? Faster walk, a reaction from you, fun and excitement. So when she jumps around like an idiot, give her boredom. Stop whatever you're doing, stand like a statue, and stare at the ceiling or sky. Eventually she'll get bored and settle down. When she settles, you start moving again. She will immediately start acting like an idiot. You take this as your cue to stand like a statue and stare at the sky again. The goal here is that she learns she only gets what she wants when she's calm. The first session of this will feel like a crawling eternity. The second one will be shorter. Within 4 or 5 sessions the jumping around like an idiot will be minimized or eliminated. You'll see her start to do it, but catch herself and calm herself down so she can get what she wants.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

AthenaClimbs said:


> I've heard you have to be firm and stern with a german shepherd but can someone elaborate? I can give you some background.
> I have an almost 6 month old girl. I have never struck her except batted her on the nose when she's a terror outside and inside (jumping up and biting me everywhere). When I am laying on the couch it is impossible for her to do anything else, she IMMEDIATELY jumps up on top of me and tries to engage with me/play/even bite (and yes I play with her but I can only play ball for so long and want some quiet time too) I'd really prefer not to have to keep her in her crate all the time (unless that's what folks do with a pup this age)! She's well exercised and we play together and I train with her through out the day. We often put her in a crate to maintain our sanity but I know that's not the right fix only a temporary resolution. When she jumps on me on the couch, i "firmly" yell NO and off and if falls on deaf ears. I pull her off on her leash and she jumps back up excitedly. How firm exactly do I need to be, we've been trying to teach her and redirect her from doing this for months and she's just not getting it. So what is wrong with my "firm" no and off.
> 
> Can you explain how you execute a firm correction? I know you all mentioned you have to be extra firm with a GSD but it seems like the corrections I'm hearing on this board are relevant to any breed being corrected... can someone elaborate?


Are you *sure* she's getting enough exercise? Just want to ask that, to positively rule that out.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

AthenaClimbs said:


> I've tried the scruff, it only makes her more agitated and bite my hand. Plus I don't want to continue that as I feel it may make her not trust me when I go near her neck (to pop on the leash/collar). Any type of physical contact excites her further. I wish I knew how to convey it's not a game to me.


NILIF is your friend.  Nothing in Life is Free

For many pups getting physical just winds them up further, which is why I really love NILIF. Use management (the leash) to prevent the bad behavior, control the resources (everything she values - food, play, attention, affection, access to whatever...), and make her work for everything.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Emoore said:


> A six month old puppy doesn't need a "firm correction" when she's jumping around because she's so excited to be on the leash. She needs her excitement level brought down a couple of notches. What is she hoping to gain from jumping around like an idiot? Faster walk, a reaction from you, fun and excitement. So when she jumps around like an idiot, give her boredom. Stop whatever you're doing, stand like a statue, and stare at the ceiling or sky. Eventually she'll get bored and settle down. When she settles, you start moving again. She will immediately start acting like an idiot. You take this as your cue to stand like a statue and stare at the sky again. The goal here is that she learns she only gets what she wants when she's calm. The first session of this will feel like a crawling eternity. The second one will be shorter. Within 4 or 5 sessions the jumping around like an idiot will be minimized or eliminated. You'll see her start to do it, but catch herself and calm herself down so she can get what she wants.


Totally. :thumbup: Good behavior turns you "on", bad behavior turns you "off". You'd be surprised how quickly dogs figure this out.


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## AthenaClimbs (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm pretty sure she gets plenty of exercise. She starts with an hour walk in the AM followed by an hour of off leash play in the park with other dogs. Then my mom is home with her through out the day with brief training sessions and play time. My dad comes home, then it's another hour in the park with other other dogs followed by a 45 minute walk. I think it's plenty


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think you have to yank, crank, scream to be firm.
being firm is making the dog what you want. if my dog
jumped onmme while i was on the sofa i would say "no"
or "get down". i would only say it once and then make my
dog get down and i wouldn't allow him to do it again. you
need to show them along with a verbal command.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

Hey there, you evidently care about doing the right thing and 6 months old is a great age (and a very trying age!).

It's ultimately important that we have our dog's trust and correction based training, or compulsive training often shakes that trust, but even moreso, it creates a vicious cycle. 

While you are lying on the couch is a great time to teach your dog to relax and stay in position. I am a huge fan of turning our lives with our dogs into teaching our dogs what TO DO instead of what NOT TO DO. Your dog may just be like "hey what are we doing we arent doing anything we're just SITTING HERE while theres things to smell out there and cmon lets do something i'll jump all over you here like this you want my toy *sticks nose into face* climbs up onto the couch etc etc" For example, while sitting and reading a book or magazine or watching t.v., just have her on leash and have her lay down and put your foot on the leash just in case she starts to get up. Consistent, not corrective. If she is jumping all over you in the house and acting inappropriate in ways that you are getting frustrated having to get her back onto four feet, etc... have a leash attached to her while she is in the house for quick control.

Above all, make sure she's getting the exercise she needs (it sounds like you are getting close to that) and the mental exercise as well (training). I believe you mentioned that you are doing this. Six months old is a craaaaazy time. I remember my dog showing his need for more by chasing his tail! I upped the exercise and that stopped. 

Also, please I urge you to read this free e-book about raising your dogs using markers (or clickers). Read the intro first. 

http://leerburg.com/pdf/markers-clickers.pdf


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

I just read through this again and it's "compulsion training". I realized in my zest for topic, I misspelled that. :blush:


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I recently started keeping Kira on her leash in the house. It's a great way to establish your rules.
I keep her free most of the times, but when I want her to sit and keep a relaxed frame of mound, I keep her leashed.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

What sort of work have you done on things like impulse control and drive building?. It's up to you to teach your dog proper outlets for the drive they naturally have and this can be done while also developing a great relationship and quick response to cues. No hard corrections necessary


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## AthenaClimbs (Aug 19, 2011)

agileGSD, great question! Now that you mention it I definitely need to work on impulse control and building her drive. I focus too much on training and NILIF that I sometimes forget how important these other factors are.

Can you give me some examples what works best for you?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Firm to one dog is abusive to the next. I have one dog that all I have to do is give them a look and another that would take a kick to the head without even pausing in their bad behavior (not that I would ever do that).

Also keep in mind that, for some dogs, ANY reaction - even negative ones - are fun.

Here's what I would recommend for your couch-jumping dog. Keep one of her favorite toys near the couch. When she jumps up on the couch *COMPLETELY IGNORE HER*.

Yes, I know - not very easy to do but if you react at all it is giving her what she wants - a reaction from you.

Wait her out. Eventually she will find no fun in being on top of you on the couch and will jump off.

The INSTANT her feet hit the floor jump up, grab her toy and play like CRAZY with her!

What you want to teach her is that 4 feet on the floor will get her attention but being on the couch will not.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't disagree but I think she said the puppy jumped up and was also biting her. That is hard to ignore.

When a puppy is that excited it will probably not learn what no means. If you are going to teach no you really need the pup calmer and paying attention to you.


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## AthenaClimbs (Aug 19, 2011)

Exactly. If she was just jumping on me excited I know to ignore her and she gets it right away. Her problem is that when gets excited she tries to engage me with bites which while they don't draw blood are still bites and hard to ignore. If i go for her leash to get her back on all fours, she'll bite my hand. That is what I'm trying to figure out.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Teach her an alternate behavior. I use touch and kissy-kiss. So her natural go to is to jump up and grab you. Teach the touch command (and I am not able to take the time to type it out but hopefully someone can) so that she can jump up and touch - your hand - a stick - a ball - a spoon - whatever you want her to touch (gets her mind involved) and then work towards a sit and touch. Soon she will sit to get attention as you shape that behavior. And it will replace the other behavior - it will go away. 

I also replace mouthing with licking with the kissy-kiss thing. This...no matter what dog, they seem to get what I mean so I do not know how to explain how to teach it!


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

For me, firm means that whatever I tell you to do, you do it. If you don't do it, I will make sure that you do (in a kind way). For example, if I tell my dog to come and she doesn't, I give the leash a tug and along she comes. She gets lots of love once she arrives. If she running all over the house and will not relax, I will work on training downs and stays. As soon as she is able to calm down and focus...then we go outside and have some more fun. 

The hardest thing to teach my puppy was to stop biting. The best command we ever taught her was "leave it". We have finally reached the point where if she bites my foot, I can tell her to leave it and she will stop. I will instantly look for something more fun for her to do. It's crazy, but she loves pine cones and will begin to excitedly search for one if I tell her to "find it". It works everytime and she has a blast finding them, instead of knawing my foot.

The key in all of this is that she was able to bring herself under control and I want to reward that. I try to work with her and enforce the rules, but also provide lots of fun rewards along the way.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Teach her an alternate behavior. I use touch and kissy-kiss. So her natural go to is to jump up and grab you. Teach the touch command (and I am not able to take the time to type it out but hopefully someone can) so that she can jump up and touch - your hand - a stick - a ball - a spoon - whatever you want her to touch (gets her mind involved) and then work towards a sit and touch. Soon she will sit to get attention as you shape that behavior. And it will replace the other behavior - it will go away.
> 
> I also replace mouthing with licking with the kissy-kiss thing. This...no matter what dog, they seem to get what I mean so I do not know how to explain how to teach it!



I'm surprised no one suggested this sooner.
I taught Kira the "touch command". It's a simple "touch my hand with your snout", and I'll give you a treat. I do this from all hand heights, while sitting or standing. She stretches her neck out to touch my hand, and I'll reward her for the gentle touch.
In a situation like yours, I would say "touch", and her bites now become snout rubs on my hand.. It works 99% of the time. The other 1%, she's just too wound up to listen.
That's when I may leash her, and put her in a calmer state of mind, just laying at my feet.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

To me, being firm means not giving a command that my dog won't do or that I can't follow through on. So if my dog is frolicking out in the yard and I know he won't come to me if I call- I don't call him. If my dog is jumping up on the couch and I say 'off' and he doesn't get off, then I calmly lead him down by his collar and then praise him when he is off. This way your dog doesn't learn that they can ignore commands.

I don't think that yelling or hitting works, but I do think that using a lower, serious voice and eye contact can work. Of course it is only going to work if your dog actually knows the commands.

When my dog was a puppy he dragged a leash a lot of the time (we were always supervising him). It made it easier if he got excited and wanted to jump, if someone came to the door, if I needed to quickly take him outside, or if he was preparing to chase my cat. In some instances, I would like to be able to redirect him- but if there is nothing more rewarding to him than chasing my cat- then I at least need to stop him before he can actually do it.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

spidermilk said:


> To me, being firm means not giving a command that my dog won't do or that I can't follow through on. So if my dog is frolicking out in the yard and I know he won't come to me if I call- I don't call him. *If my dog is jumping up on the couch and I say 'off' and he doesn't get off, then I calmly lead him down by his collar and then praise him when he is off. This way your dog doesn't learn that they can ignore commands.*
> 
> I don't think that yelling or hitting works, but I do think that using a lower, serious voice and eye contact can work. Of course it is only going to work if your dog actually knows the commands.
> 
> When my dog was a puppy he dragged a leash a lot of the time (we were always supervising him). It made it easier if he got excited and wanted to jump, if someone came to the door, if I needed to quickly take him outside, or if he was preparing to chase my cat. In some instances, I would like to be able to redirect him- but if there is nothing more rewarding to him than chasing my cat- then I at least need to stop him before he can actually do it.


This is something I need to try.
Thanks


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

AthenaClimbs said:


> agileGSD, great question! Now that you mention it I definitely need to work on impulse control and building her drive. I focus too much on training and NILIF that I sometimes forget how important these other factors are.
> 
> Can you give me some examples what works best for you?


 For drive building - I'd suggest following the advice in this article before incorporating the toy into training:

Playing with Prey Drive: The Key to Attitude and Enthusiasm in Performance Dogs - The Dog Athlete

This shows a typical way I'd use the toy/prey drive in training - switch in between play/work/play/work. A good starting point for this is tug-sit-tug-sit-tug because you're asking the dog to switch between being in a high arousal state and listening to you to get what they want. In that way, it's a good impulse control exercise. Whim is only 5 months old in the video, so she's still in the very beginning phase:Whimsy Heelwork at YABTC Puppy Class - YouTube

For impulse control this is a good example of things to work on, first in an easy environment with easy things (like dry food) than progressively more distractions or more tempting things. 
"It's Yer Choice" - YouTube

I also very much recommend Susan Garret's Crate Games, which is both working with drive and impulse control and is very easy to implement into every day life:

Crate Games - YouTube

Crate Games can be purchased here:Welcome to Dogwise.com

I really think these things will help a great deal


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Teach her an alternate behavior. I use touch and kissy-kiss. So her natural go to is to jump up and grab you. Teach the touch command (and I am not able to take the time to type it out but hopefully someone can) so that she can jump up and touch - your hand - a stick - a ball - a spoon - whatever you want her to touch (gets her mind involved) and then work towards a sit and touch. Soon she will sit to get attention as you shape that behavior. And it will replace the other behavior - it will go away.
> 
> I also replace mouthing with licking with the kissy-kiss thing. This...no matter what dog, they seem to get what I mean so I do not know how to explain how to teach it!


Could you elaborate on this? Sibi is still mouthing people..would this technique be helpful with that problem? If it is really hard to explain technique perhaps you could guide me in the right direction? I can't find anything on the web but I think I saw Victoria Stillwell using this method..
Thanks 
Jan


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Elaborate on which part, the touch command, or to give kisses on cue?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Elaborate on which part, the touch command, or to give kisses on cue?


Debbie:

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I was wonder if you could explain where "touch" leads to?

I had to take a 6 week reprieve from obedience school, and the last this we learned was "touch". I could put my hand anywhere, and ask Kira to "touch", and she would just put her snout on it.

What foundation is touch used for?


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## Anastasia (Oct 7, 2011)

This is a great video on teaching the stand with the "touch" command. It teaches the touch command as part of it.
Stand is Fun Video


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Anthony8858 said:


> Debbie:
> 
> I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I was wonder if you could explain where "touch" leads to?
> 
> ...


Touch can be used for all sorts of things! Check out the video that Anastasia posted - that's actually not anything I've used it for before, but it's a great idea. 

Touch is a targeting exercise, once you've got that foundation behavior you can transfer it to virtually anything, limited only by your imagination. For a puppy, using just my palm as the target for a nose bump, I can teach heel (puppy targets your hand while walk with her in heel position, rewarding frequently), I can break her focus off something else and redirect attention back to me by cuing a touch, it's an alternate recall command (if she's across the room she has to come to you to "touch"), to teach a retrieve, (bring the ball back and touch it to your hand), and once she's consistently following your hand you can use it to teach tricks like weaving through your legs as you walk, or to do spins. 

Any interest in taking agility classes? You'll use targeting. We're using a target stick in flyball class, and because Halo started learning the touch command from 10 weeks old when we got her, it was very easy to transfer touching my palm with her nose to touching the end of the target stick, and then the stick is used to direct her. 

Here are some articles about targeting:

ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- Targeting: What's Next?

Target Training: Teach your pet this useful trick!

ASPCA - Virtual Pet Behaviorist - Teaching Your Dog to Hand Target


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

I also have a similar problem and I'm not sure what to do anymore! I do NILIF most of the time (wait to get food, go through doors and so on), ignore undesirable behaviours (barking/jumping), give lots of affection when he's calm and gentle or doing things I want him to (I encourage him to do kiss kiss), and do basic training (sit, down, wait, up, and so on) everyday, and my puppy can understand "NO" and "OUT" most of the time (at least he seems to), but sometimes he just wouldn't listen...

Sometimes, he would suddenly go crazy and start chewing certain stuffs that I don't want him to. I'd say "NO" or "OUT", and he would listen most of the times, and then I would praise him and redirect him to his own chew stuffs (toys and bones), but sometimes he just won't care anymore and wants to continue doing what I don't want him to... Since not listening is not ok, I would reinforce it by slowly pulling/leading him away by his collar/scurf or body block his way, but then sometimes he would go farther try to bite me.
Also, sometimes he would also go crazy all of a sudden and start biting me non-stop no matter what. I can't just simply ignore him since he would just continue and I want him to respect me, so when he goes too persistent, I would use time-out by saying "BAD" and putting him on a short leash and only release him when he's calm. This seems to work, but he would bark a lot and try to fight the leash at first for a few minutes. The problem is, I can't do this in the middle of the night, since it would disturb the neighbours' sleep if he barks.
So when I can't use time-out, I would grab him by his scurf and hold him down, telling him "NO" and only release him when he finally calms down. He would fight back and growl (I can tell that he is being a bit aggressive by the way he growls and the way his facial muscles moves), and every time he growls I would say "NO", 'till he finally understands that it's no use fighting back as he can't get away anyways. I confess that I've hit him sometimes when he goes too overboard and I've got desperate, but that doesn't work at all (he's the type of thought puppy that doesn't get affected at all!), and I really hate to do that so I avoid doing that.
But doing confrontation even if just by holding him down and still is really stressful for me! Not to mention that it can become more aggressive and out of hand when he reaches adulthood... So I'm really lost, coz on one hand I can't just ignore it (him biting me or going after inappropriate stuffs to chew on without listening/respecting at all), on the other hand I'm not sure what to do anymore since redirection and confrontation doesn't seem to work or be the best way...


He's currently 6 months old, and I'm thinking of crate training him so that it could at least help a bit for me to be able to remain sane. I've been doing something that maybe I shouldn't be doing, and that's allowing him to sleep on the same bed, and sometimes that's where he goes crazy! When he wouldn't listen on the bed, I'd drag him out of the bed (saying "OUT") and hold him down and still 'till he gets calmer, but after releasing him he would just go back to the bed again and go all crazy again... Maybe I shouldn't allow him on the bed at all??

Anyways, I wish that I could learn what's the best thing to do in these situations, without having to confront him or use any kind of physical aversive method, since it's really stressful and I hate it! I prefer positive reinforcement and negative punishment...
I want to be a calm and firm leader for him, and I want him to respect and listen, since allowing this is a recipe for disaster when he becomes adult and harder to control, but I don't know what more to do whenever he goes crazy like that and redirection and body block doesn't work at all (unless food is involved... but I can't just keep bribing him all the day!). I've posted for help in another forum before, but it seems that the other forum is too focused on the positive way being the only way that they think that even telling "NO" or using time-out is bad and damaging.


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## matthewm11 (Oct 18, 2011)

I love targeting, I started the same way Anthony did-I'd say "touch" and she would touch the my hand with her snout. Move you hand high up so your dog has to jump up to touch your hand. I then moved to toys and balls and now if I say "touch" while throwing a ball/frisbee/toy she will try to catch it in mid-air (before doing this she had no interest in catching objects) You can even teach dogs to open doors and turn on and off lights with targeting (have her touch an object like a post-it, place post-it on door handle...) Still working on that...

OP- I actually get a little jealous when I read posts about GSDs jumping all over their owners. As GSDs go, I have one on the lower spectrum of energy. I actually was worried she might be sick when I first got her and had to work her up to my active lifestyle. Now she is fine but still isnt super affectionate. She does act up and misbehave from time to time, and for her the old coins in a coke can trick usually works.


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