# Tracking video and a question-maybe discussion???



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

It's like this board has been completely revived with the arrival of Zahnburg!








And what great timing, yesterday I learned YouTube now supports HD video so it's very easy for me to upload video now.

So several tracks ago Flash made a mistake and I took advantage of the opportunity to teach him something. I think it's pretty obvious in this video what that mistake was, even without knowing how he used to track. This morning even club members asked about it because he's never done what he is now doing. First, just for







and giggles I'm interested in what you think the mistake was. Then, how would you have handled such a mistake when it happened? Based on what you see in the video, how would you address his "problem" in the next track and the track after that and so on? Or does my whole track suck?









http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0xkfOx2Tgw

Sorry the first 30 or so feet are missing. The videographer was my judge and then she couldn't figure out how to turn the camera on.


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

Great work!

Problem seems to be that he wants to down early on the articles, about 10 feet or so on the first and third legs. I hear a lot of wind on the first and third legs, I believe they were going in the same direction? The second leg is much more accurate with the article indication, and you hear less wind in the video.

MY thought would be that the wind is the issue, and I'd set him up for success when laying the track by taking the wind heavily into consideration. For example, if tracking into the wind makes him down early, then track with the wind at your back for a while. Later, as you set up wind challenges, you'll need to pull him through the zone where he's wanting to down early - maybe some extra bait, etc etc. 

Also, he's very accurate with most of the footsteps, but the ones he misses are all on the same side, leading me to believe there *may* have been a cross wind? If so, you might try shortening your steps or dragging your feet for the variable that made him miss those steps. 

great work! I love watching tracking videos....Nice dog, good handling.

I wouldn't correct him, maybe just a simple "no" when he starts to down early and a clear, superbly timed "Yes!" (or whatever) rewarding the instant he starts to give a good indication....

And of course, I could be way off...

Christine


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

The only thing I saw as well were what Christine mentioned. 

I thought the track was really well done. I noticed him indicating early, but didn't catch the missed steps until the second time watching.

I blame the wind and would just start working him as the above poster mentioned.

Great job, do you have any more videos of you guys tracking?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Loved him! I really like how he moves his head on the footsteps.

And I loved your boots too


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

I see a dog with intense drive with his tracking behavior. I enjoyed watching this video. With the exception of the "slight" anticipation of article indication, Flash exhibits everything I like to see in tracking. (And the article indication itself was very good).


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Jessica, I think this is the first time I have seen my screenname mentioned where the word A-hole was not in the same sentence. 

The dog in the video looks very happy, and seems to be pulling like an ox. What happens if you make the lines slack? Does he want to go even faster or does he stop and look at you? 

I don't think I would worry too much about the dog wanting to indicate early yet. Have you been focusing on the articles, or is it new to him? If he continues to do this I think if you step up to him and give him a pop forward with a suche command it should solve the problem.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Aahh, Zahnburg you were just misunderstood!!! Some of us think you rock, but unfortunately are also the type of people least likely to tell ya so! 

Now that you are in at least one person's good graces, back to tracking.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

He's really not pulling all that hard, he's just dramatic about what little he is pulling.







He can pull pretty darn hard when we haven't tracked in a few days, but he didn't on that track. Despite the appearance it's just a slight tension on the line and I'm not resisting him much. For the most part that's just how he tracks. Once or twice I have had to momentarily drop the lines when they got tangled in my feet and he just kept on cruising, not getting any faster, same when I occasionally make one line go limp when he's absolutely nailing a leg.

There was a pretty decent and constant wind as evidenced by the sound. I actually did lay the track with the wind primarily to our backs because I was anticipating the indication issue and only wanted to really focus on that, and then of course the winds shifted by the time we ran the track so there went that plan. But we were not going into the wind at any point during this track and I'm completely confident the wind had nothing to do with his early "kind of sort of" indications. I think the wind being so obvious threw you guys off. But obviously he's working through article problems.

Several tracks before this one, for the first time ever, he blew right past an article and didn't think twice about continuing without indicating (he really surprised me, if it were trial day it would have been one of those "my dog has never done THAT before" moments!). It was also the last article on the track. So I immediately platzed him (he was then lying on top of the article) with a downward pop, placed the article back on the track just up ahead of us, restarted him and platzed him hard at the article. The next day he didn't "kind of sort of" early indicate, he flat out early indicated 10+ feet at every single article. Day after that he early indicated the first 3 articles then did fine on the 4th. And so on and so on. Each track he has gotten progressively better and in fact the day after this track he only "kind of sort of" indicated early at the first article. Only when he completely indicates early have I done anything (just tell him such), otherwise I just let him work through it. This is what I'll continue to do over many, many tracks. That's my plan, just lots of tracking and he'll figure things out. As long as he continues to show me he is thinking and learning, I'm happy.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

I thought it actually looked like a pretty nice track other than the early indication of the articles. How much food are you putting down (just curious), as in how many footsteps between bait pieces?

The only other thing I noticed, and this isn't necessarily on topic, but I could see every single footstep on that track. How hard did you stomp it in? One thing that I have found through trial and error... trial being two SchH2 trials and error being failing twice.... is that you have to be careful in how you lay your tracks. Its nice when you can stomp them in good and hard and see your dog do well duing trianing, but when you get to the SchH2 and SchH3 someone else is going to lay your track. Granted, track layers are supposed to be relatively equal, but it depends on who you get and what flavor of coffee they drank that morning, if you know what I mean. That is why in Germany they are going to designated regional track layers. For each region there will be a certian number of designated track layers, one or more of which will be required to lay the tracks for a trial or the trial won't be valid. We aren't to that point here in the US yet.

Ok, I digress, anyway, I agree whith what was said. I was going to mention the wind thing too, but it's already been covered. I thought it was a nice treack other than the article indication, good job!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

OK. I understand better. I make a LOT of pressure getting to the articles and it is not unusual for the dog to want to, initially, indicate early (or down on corners or when they loose the track etc.) I think that this is similar. To me this is not a lot of pressure, but to your dog this was pressure. What I would suggest is as soon as the dog starts to indicate early just say "suche,suche". I would say to pop him forward, but I do not think it is necessary with your dog.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Samba,

Stop it! I think you are going to make me cry









I do seem to be getting along better recently....it must be the smiley-face!


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: jesusicaIt's like this board has been completely revived with the arrival of Zahnburg!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dog boards are stupid places to get advice So I'll give you my observation that's only a guess and a suggestion that was mentioned on the other tracking post that works very well.
First let me say your dog can be a tracking monster he looks to be a natural tracker.
At first I thought your dog was downing out of frustration due to pulling and you holding him back but he wasn't relay acting hectic so I watched it again. 
I am only going to guess because I couldn't see or tell if you were doing something or not. Your dog showed the same behavior at almost exactly the same distance before both the articles. You say the wind isn't in his face and you made a turn so I'll rule that out. I think it could be you are doing something with the line telling him the article is coming, now I didn't see you do any thing its just a educated guess it could be something very subtle. Did you know ware and if your articles were coming up. My observation.
You say your dog aint pulling hard but it looks like it to me at least harder than he should be JMO. His corners were great but things were very controlled on short lines I guarantee he will shoot corners if you are back further back. My observation.
The suggestion to slow him down and it was mentioned by several on the other tracking post is using the second line to set the pace with rhythmic small gentle pops using a loose pinch rather than holding him back. Do this continuously till you feel him slow down and then stop feel his pace pick up start immediately with the gentle pops.
You can ween this into your single line also and if your sly in trial your dog starts to speed up you have a slick little tool to slow him.
Now here is some real advice go tracking with your TD or someone who knows stuff and who can watch and help, your dog can make V tracking.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Joker
> Dog boards are stupid places to get advice So I'll give you my observation that's only a guess and a suggestion that was mentioned on the other tracking post that works very well.
> First let me say your dog can be a tracking monster he looks to be a natural tracker.
> At first I thought your dog was downing out of frustration due to pulling and you holding him back but he wasn't relay acting hectic so I watched it again.
> ...


I don't know where to start with this reply.







I really, really, really don't think I'm telegraphing anything to him. I just really don't. In the past, when first introducing articles on the track, I definitely was and I could even feel it. It was a lot of work to make myself not change my stride or tension on the line or any of the other multitude of things you can change to give away the article. I'll pay extra close attention to this on our next several tracks. Unfortunately I rarely get the opportunity to have someone record us so that option is out the window.

Gauging how hard a dog is pulling, particularly when he's your first dog, is a very subjective thing! To me he is not pulling hard, especially compared to how I know he can be, but I wave the white flag and admit he could be really plowing down the track.

And I completely agree with you that dog boards are a stupid place to get advice and I need to go out with a real tracking pro. Trust me I'm not about to change the path we are on just because of a post on any message board. I know where we've been, I know where we're going, and I know the people to get me there. It's just fun to "talk" about and get a feel for all the different perspectives out there. Unfortunately the folks I know that regularly bang out V tracks just aren't around me (I have a club I train with and then there's the club my heart belongs to) so we are moving along very slowly, only changing things when I have the opportunity to train with the people I trust. So onward we go with two short lines and tension, just a fursaver, pressure only when I know how to properly apply it, and a track laid as heavy footed as possible. But now that YouTube is an easy option for me I'm hoping I can do a smidge of distance training with my favorite trainers to speed up our training a bit!

Thank you for the kind words regarding his abilities. I've been told he has wonderful instincts and could easily have an FH at a club trial in as little as 6 weeks if I could train with "my people" for that 6 weeks. Theme of our schh journey, unfortunately.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have not watched the video so, I have no comment about that. I will say this about the advise on boards comments. People have to realize that no one is suggesting that you can learn to train on the internet. I do find it odd that the same people who recommend books say the internet is useless but whatever.
Much of dog training is trying different things with different dogs. It is up to the handler to decide if the ideas work. I talk to a friend of mine who lives across the country a few times a week and of course, we talk about dogs since we both do SchH. We discuss what we have tried that worked in certain situations and we have both reminded each other about certain ways to do things and I dare say, we have taught each other a few things in those conversations. Of course, I might offer an idea and he says he already tried it and it would not work with his dog and vice versa. These are just ideas being thrown around and for sure won't work for everyone because there are different levels of skill involved. Most people do not have a helper that can do a certain type of work and many people are really new and an idea might not work for them because of that.
Still, no matter how long you have done SchH, it is, IMO, a good idea to listen to what others are doing because , if nothing else, it will remind you of something you forgot.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I did watch the video and I will say this about the wind. I think people do not appreciate how only a little bit of it will affect your dog. It has the effect of moving the scent elsewhere in ways that are difficult for people to understand. Sometimes, it is not just a case of blowing in one direction, it can be a case of the wind swirling. The way the dog in the video is tracking shows a great deal of interest in the track and the articles. The way I look at it is that he caught some scent of the article, ( and that for sure is possible from some feet away), and being less experienced, he starts to indicate, ( that's a good thing because that is what you are teaching him to do). IMO, it will go away with experience and does not warrant anything drastic to fix.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I never said I would discredit everything posted. I have indeed read things online that reminded me of something I forgot or maybe clarified something for me. That said, I'm not about to run out and start changing things because of something I read online. I'll stick to in person guidance and over the phone discussion with people whom I have trained with enough that I understand what they mean when they say certain things and they understand me when I describe something. Afterall, they've seen my dog from the beginning and know him much better than anyone online can by watching just one video or reading just one paragraph from me. I do enjoy reading the different ideas and methods, especially because they could be handy down the road. For all I know, 5 months from now the method of slowing a dog down rhythmycially is introduced to me and hey, I've already read about it so I have a little better understanding of it. But am I going to start using it tomorrow because someone online said he needs to slow down? No. We're not trialing this weekend, next weekend, or even 2 months from now. We are not stuck on a problem that nobody can seem to fix. I'm happy with where we are based on my timeline and he continues to show progress. Why would I want to mess with that based on something someone posts? JMO 

And I've never ever recommended a book. And I can promise you you'll never see me recommend one. So there.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: VandalI did watch the video and I will say this about the wind. I think people do not appreciate how only a little bit of it will affect your dog. It has the effect of moving the scent elsewhere in ways that are difficult for people to understand. Sometimes, it is not just a case of blowing in one direction, it can be a case of the wind swirling. The way the dog in the video is tracking shows a great deal of interest in the track and the articles. The way I look at it is that he caught some scent of the article, ( and that for sure is possible from some feet away), and being less experienced, he starts to indicate, ( that's a good thing because that is what you are teaching him to do). IMO, it will go away with experience and does not warrant anything drastic to fix.


I do agree with all of this, however he's not had an issue with this in the past and the day before this track (and the few tracks before that), with no wind, he did the same thing. So to me that says it's not so much the wind that caused him to begin indicating, though certainly that played a part in it because he obviously had to catch the scent early to indicate early, but instead primarily he's still thinking really hard about making sure he downs at the articles after his correction. Yes, no, maybe so?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I was talking more to Mike than you since he comments that way quite a bit. The rest of what you said is simply common sense and I don't think the people who actually know something are suggesting you go out today and try anything. That's my point, you do have to have a bit of common sense and the people who don't are going to screw it up anyway.

As for wind, I can tell you from training detection dogs that your dog can still smell the article even if there is no wind. He is clearly using his nose, therefore, he is more likely than another type of dog who is less intense, to catch a whiff of the article from some feet away.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think dog handling is like cooking. Some handlers like to follow recipes and instructions without deviating from them and are very comfortable with this approach, others like to experiment and develop their own style very early in their career. Either ones achieve good results and either approach is good.

These are just my thoughts on the 'advise on boards' thing.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: but instead primarily he's still thinking really hard about making sure he downs at the articles after his correction.


Somehow I left out my attempt to answer this . Yes, that is what I am GUESSING it is. After a few tracks, depending on how you approach this, I would expect to see him adjusting and making it to the article. You may have to find some ways to help him do that. I am sure you will think of something.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

It could very well be the wind who knows it's certainly something to always to be mindful of. You could try a leg with several articles and ignore the behavior and encourage forward movement and party at the article dog gets nothing for nothing guessing he will get over it. I don't think any pressure is necessary.
Sure ain't nothing to get worried about and could be fun trying to figure it out.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Just a quick update. 5 articles yesterday and nailed them all. Can't track today but we'll see what tomorrow morning brings.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Just curious.... Did you change anything since the problem or have you been continuing on with what you've been doing..


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I didn't change a thing, just let him work it out.


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## hudak004 (Aug 3, 2006)

Nice video!! Any trips up north planned?


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