# Black Sable Breeders?



## Konotashi

Firstly, what are your opinions on this breeder? Anyone ever purchased a puppy from them? Their site looks legitimate and everything looks good to me, but I'd like your guys' opinions. 
Spartanville Shepherds Introduction

Secondly, I'd prefer to drive to pick her up (Michigan is farther than I'm willing to drive) and was wondering if there was any black sable shepherd breeders in Arizona, Colorado, California, Texas, New Mexico, or any state close to AZ.... I'm willing to drive fairly far to get my pup.  

I want to have more than one breeder to pick and choose from right now; because from the looks of it, I _think_ it'll be around 2-3 months before I can get her.


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## JKlatsky

We have a young male from Spartanville at our club. Beautiful dog. I think you'll find that no one will have anything negative to say. Spartanville is a very reputable kennel.


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## onyx'girl

I was in contact with Connie when I was looking for a pup. She is very professional and knowledgable. She is a member here and pops in now and then.
I think her dogs are absolutey gorgeous!


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## kleinenHain

I agree, Connie has some very nice dogs.


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## Chris Wild

Connie/Spartanville is definitely a good one to check into.


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## onyx'girl

If you are opposed to shipping Maybe Connie can steer you in the right direction of a breeder out West. Puck may have progeny that is now in a breeding program.


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## JakodaCD OA

nice dogs !


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## ThorDog

Konotashi - I am glad to see you are ready to get a pup! Make sure the breeder tries to match you with your pup. What are you looking for in your pup?


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## Konotashi

I'm not 'opposed' to shipping, per say, I'd just rather drive because it's cheaper, and I'd be able to meet my puppy before bringing her home. 

The primary thing I'm looking for is companionship, and I also plan to do agility and possibly SchH.


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## Jessiewessie99

I also agree that Spartanville has very beautiful dogs!


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## blackviolet

I LOVE their dogs! They are one that's on my "favorites" list, for if we ever get another.


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## szariksdad

Are you opposed to any of the breeders down in Arizona, Since I had luck with getting my recent pup down there. He is more of a light colored sable but the breeder did it looks like have a litter recently that would have dark colorings


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## Valkyrierider

We our very pleased with our girls from: GERMAN SHEPHERD PUPPIES FOR SALE - PERSONAL PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - FAMILY PROTECTION DOGS FOR SALE - POLICE DOGS FOR SALE - GERMAN SHEPHERDS FOR SALE. We have 1 black and 1 sable. These are working line dogs with high drives. The main kennel is located about 10 miles south of Turlock, Ca.


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## GSD4LIFE21

I own a dog from Connie and agree with the above comments in regards to her kennel. Quest is an amazing dog and he is everything I wanted!


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## Samba

That is a cool looking dog there from Kreative.









V, CAC Charis Leryka pedigree information - German shepherd dog


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## blackviolet

Ha, Kreative was also on my list, particularly because of THAT dog.


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## Glacier

I believe JustK9s is in northern California. Kim has been very courteous and patient answering my questions, and her boy "Rookie" is gorgeous.


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## Konotashi

I will admit, I hate when there aren't prices on the website. xD


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## ThorDog

I was reading through Kreative's website and came upon this quote:

We want to breed dogs that are _very dominant and serious with veryhigh drives and active aggression_. 
We are breeding police dogs, not top sport dogs. Many traits are the same, yet some are distinctly different. We are not concerned about high scores nor perfection on any one skill that a dog has; however we are concerned that a dog is hard enough, fast enough, strong enough, clear-headed and controllable. We need a dog that is born with high levels of confidence, aggression and natural protection. We like dogs that are almost too hard to handle.

While they have beautiful dogs, based on the quotes I would not buy from them (beacause I am not purchasing for a K9 dept but for my family)especially if you are a first time GSD owner. They clearly are breeding for a working police K9 which might have a different wish list than a family companion dog who might be trained in Sch or agility like you are looking for. While any solid GSD should do well anywhere, I would still beware of getting too much dog. I looked at their site and while they are great for having videos and say their dogs are good with children, I would like to see videos of them being socialized and not just doing bite work. Just my 2 cents, of course, I could be wrong!


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## szariksdad

Have you looked at either Dragon German Shepherd, 623-388-0494, German Shepherd Puppies, Czech German Shepherd, Working Dogs, Personal Protection Dogs, Police, K9
or German Shepherd Czech Import located in Arizona they might have what you are looking for


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## robinhuerta

I also suggest Kim form Justk9's......I bought a puppy female from her.
We co-own a SUPERB young male...and yet another friend has just purchased a puppy male from her.......they are ALL "Rookie" progeny......we have been very pleased with them.
Best of luck to you!


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## Valkyrierider

I would agree with Thordog's comment to a point. But consider not all the dogs at Kreative are 4 legged piranha. I spoke with Greg and Mike and although I already had an idea of which ones I wanted, I said nothing and let them show me. Fortunately they showed me the same puppies. They are very good around the grand kids, which have ranged from birth to 5 years. The only problem was some excited jumping up on the older kids, which we corrected. There has been no signs of agression towards any family member or other children. If you are interested give them a call and set up an appointment. They can show you which ones would be appropriate for your needs. I wouldn't rule them out based on their primary breeding goals. They do have puppies that are not cut out for law enforcement. Each puppy is evaluated and they know which are good for family or law enforcement. Many are true dual purpose and all around fantastic dogs.


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## Samba

I have two dogs bred for the purpose of police work as a goal. They are fantastic family companions. They love kids too. Great in the house and go everywhere we go. I would love to find two more just like them. They do not all turn out as hard as steel or difficult to handle. In fact, I have appreciated their devotion, solid nerve, trainability and soundness.


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## IllinoisNative

I know you're looking for something closer to you, but http://vombanachk9.homestead.com/stud_dogs.html is on my short list for a black sable. Although, they are in Washington, I'm very impressed with them.


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## boeselager

Connie, Kim and Julie are all good breeders IMO ;-)


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## Ace952

I joined this board to find advice on breeders for a black sable.

I have go around and around and have settled on Spartanville & Vom Banach.

Vom Banach has some now but Spartanville won't have any for another 4 months.
I will check out the other 2 places that have been mentioned here.
I am looking for a personal protection dog for myself.
I have found other black sable breeders but Von Banach & Spartanville have been the most recommended with Spartanville leading between the 2 of them.

I wanted to get a puppy next week and I am wondering if i should get a puppy now from Vom Banach or wait the 4 months for a dog from Spartanville. I keep going back and forth.


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## onyx'girl

Ace952~~Waiting 4 months is nothing.
I would not rush just because you want a pup next week. As far as personal protection, is this the only reason you want a GSD? Are you planning on training the pup yourself, with the help of a qualified trainer? I hope so! Don't send your pup away for PP...the bond you share while training together is priceless.
Please be upfront with the breeder, whichever breeder you choose so they can help you in the selection. 
Don't rush, this pup will hopefully be with you for a decade+~4 months is nothing compared to the lifespan of your next companion.
I wanted a black sable for my pup, but decided a blend of lines would better suit what I wanted in my next companion. So I was blessed with a dark sable instead and waited 4 months, couldn't be happier with my decision...though the wait was not so fun!!


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## Ace952

onyx'girl said:


> Ace952~~Waiting 4 months is nothing.
> I would not rush just because you want a pup next week. As far as personal protection, is this the only reason you want a GSD? Are you planning on training the pup yourself, with the help of a qualified trainer? I hope so! Don't send your pup away for PP...the bond you share while training together is priceless.
> Please be upfront with the breeder, whichever breeder you choose so they can help you in the selection.
> Don't rush, this pup will hopefully be with you for a decade+~4 months is nothing compared to the lifespan of your next companion.
> I wanted a black sable for my pup, but decided a blend of lines would better suit what I wanted in my next companion. So I was blessed with a dark sable instead and waited 4 months, couldn't be happier with my decision...though the wait was not so fun!!


I have done a month of searching and reading and talking to people. I had just decided to go with Vom Banach but now I am hesitant and wondering if I should wait 4 months for Spartanville. Jinopo.cz has some nice dogs as well. 

The price for pups is what surprises me. Maybe Im crazy but over $1500 for a pup is a little excessive to me. Your thoughts?

I am not big on sport or Sch so yes personal protection is good for me. Yes, I have no intentions of training it by myself and have found a personal trainer (AlpineK9.com) to go to for all obedience and personal protection training. I agree and let the breeders know what I am looking for in a dog so that the best match can be made. lol..yes the waiting is the hard part especially since I have waited so far.

What was your purpose for the dog? I need to learn about the lines b/c I don't know anything about them.


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## onyx'girl

$1500 for a good working line is reasonable. That is usually the going price. 
I was looking for a pup to start in SchH so decided a blending of West German/Czech lines was better suited for what I wanted. The black sables are usually from DDR lines and they tend to mature very slow and have a blockier build. Though not all have that structure. I wanted a dog that would be agile. 
To be honest a month of research is not long at all. Many people spend several months to be sure of what they are getting into. When I decided I wanted a male puppy(already have two female GSD's) it was about 9 months from the time I started looking, til my pup came home.


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## Liesje

If you are going to AlpineK9 for training, can't he help you find a dog? He breeds dogs and knows a lot of people.


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## Chris Wild

I have a question for those searching for "black sable" breeders.
This color is most commonly found in dogs of specific bloodlines, mainly DDR and Czech, though it can occasionally be found in others.

Are the people focusing on obtaining a dog of this color also doing research into the type of dog these lines typically produce with regard to temperament and making sure those aspects of the dog are a good fit for the potential owner's personality and lifestyle? I don't get the sense that is the case from reading most of these posts, and I think too much focus on a particular, very insiginificant trait such as color, can lead to a host of problems if other more important factors, such as health and temperament, aren't kept high on the priority list. I would also caution to not only research dogs and bloodlines in terms of being a good overall fit, but also breeders to avoid any who might be sacrificing those more important things in favor of focusing on fad breeding for what seems to have become the new popular GSD color.


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## JKlatsky

Chris Wild said:


> I have a question for those searching for "black sable" breeders.
> This color is most commonly found in dogs of specific bloodlines, mainly DDR and Czech, though it can occasionally be found in others.
> 
> Are the people focusing on obtaining a dog of this color also doing research into the type of dog these lines typically produce with regard to temperament and making sure those aspects of the dog are a good fit for the potential owner's personality and lifestyle? I don't get the sense that is the case from reading most of these posts, and I think too much focus on a particular, very insiginificant trait such as color, can lead to a host of problems if other more important factors, such as health and temperament, aren't kept high on the priority list. I would also caution to not only research dogs and bloodlines in terms of being a good overall fit, but also breeders to avoid any who might be sacrificing those more important things in favor of focusing on fad breeding for what seems to have become the new popular GSD color.



It's a fad. And of course it's OK to have a color preference...but I wouldn't let it drive my choice for the companion of the next 10+ years of my life. I would love a black sable...but my WG dark sables have been great, and actually my favorite dog in my truck right now is a light patterned sable...Why? Because his working ability and personality are SO much cooler than his color.

Actually it's a complaint that Alpine K9 made not that long ago on the Pedigree Database...Maybe you ought to talk to them. Usually involving your trainer in your decision is a good idea because they will have a good idea of what dogs best fit their training methods. 
BIG heads, super dark sables, super hips. That is the problem - German shepherd dog


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## Ace952

@Onyx.....I see that it certainly is now. I have seen some for way more but I refuse to pay the high cost plus shipping (i.e. Kreative Kennels which has some great looking dogs but at $2500 a pup plus shipping, that is a lil too rich for my blood.) I see $1500 as reasonable. Wow 9 months is a long time. Did you not know what you wanted at first? How did you go abount saying "I want a gsd" and then narrow it from that big pool to knowing that you wanted a DDR/Czech blend?

@Liesje....Yes Hans is a great guy and was the very 1st breeder that I spoke with and lucky for me he is only a hour from me. I almost walked out with a 3 month old pup and she was pretty. I had to stop myself from making a impulse buy. I left and then proceeded to research and speak to other breeders and all. I knew I wanted a black sable shepherd the first time I saw one during my research so that immediately narrowed it down. I wanted to make sure I looked around and talked to a lot of people (get recommendations & opinions on who to stay away from) and get as much as I could. Now that I feel more confident I will probably get it from Hans since he is right here and gives a discount on training should I buy a pup from him. I also wanted to do my research on him and see what others had to say and all and he is well respected from what I came across. Like you said he knows a lot of people and specializes in that line.


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## Ace952

JKlatsky said:


> Actually it's a complaint that Alpine K9 made not that long ago on the Pedigree Database...Maybe you ought to talk to them. Usually involving your trainer in your decision is a good idea because they will have a good idea of what dogs best fit their training methods.
> BIG heads, super dark sables, super hips. That is the problem - German shepherd dog



And that is one of the reasons I have decided to go with Alpine K9. I felt myself getting caught up in the color and not looking so much into what problems they may have.

Nothing wrong with wanting a specific color just need to be aware of what other things come into play and soemone with more experience can get you the color but also witht he right temperament. They may say a blend will work better. You will get the color you want to a degree but this is a better fit.


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## Liesje

In my search for a puppy I found myself avoided the black sable/DDR lines because it seems so many are fad breedings for color or saying you have that type of dog, it is hard to find good breeders really working these dogs themselves to a high level and producing successful offspring consistently.


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## LaRen616

I think wanting a specific colored dog is perfectly fine. As long as you know what kind of drive and temperment your looking for then what's the problem? I knew I wanted a black GSD, I got him and he is absolutely perfect for me. I want a dark sable next. There are tons and tons and tons of dark sable GSD's out there, I am sure there is one that will fit me perfectly. 

I am not a big fan of white, black/tan, black/red, light sables. 

I only like all black, dark sable, red sable and bicolor with only some tan on their legs. I am sure that there is a GSD of each of those colors that would be perfect for me.


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## Liesje

LaRen616 said:


> As long as you know what kind of drive and temperment your looking for then what's the problem?


I think therein lies some of the problem. A lot of people I've come across breeding these dogs don't have a very solid knowledge of working and training them themselves. They are marketing the dogs and breedings based on color and type.

Not to mention everyone seems to have their own definition of what is a "black" sable.


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## JKlatsky

Liesje said:


> I think therein lies some of the problem. A lot of people I've come across breeding these dogs don't have a very solid knowledge of working and training them themselves. They are marketing the dogs and breedings based on color and type.


I agree. BYBs and some less scrupulous breeders will crank our Black sables because they know they can get them sold. 

Please consider the average puppy buyer. When they decide they want a puppy...they want a puppy NOW. So the first criteria is the "look" and then once they find a few options that have the "look" they have to look at availability. Some kennels only produce 1 or 2 litters a year. Which of those kennels that produces black sables has a litter that is coming up very soon or already on the ground? Are they close by so it's convienent to go pick up the puppy? And is the price right? Then there's the very basic question of gender. So already the average puppy buyer has significantly reduced their pool of choices based on color, availability (time/location/price), and gender- and truly that is where most people stop. They pick a puppy and go on their way. 

More serious puppy buyers then continue to start looking at health- OFAs etc. This is a fairly easy yes/no. Then, Temperament is more tricky because there are many different ideas on what is a deal breaker in temperament. 

Where it gets VERY difficult is if you have any sort of aspirations for working/competing with the dog because then there are so MANY other factors that have to be assessed regarding not only temperament but also drive. And this is probably the most important component for someone who wants a working dog because this is the part that determines success in work...not the color. 

Can you find a nice black sable dog? Yes you can. But you can also expect to pay a premium for it because quality breeders know they have a big market for their dogs and can afford to be very choosy about the homes they place their puppies in. 

I've always found it infinitely better to work in reverse. Find dogs that you like, look at the kennels/lines that they come from. Watch until a litter comes along that you are interested in. Evaluate puppies and choose the one that works the best for your purpose- Male or Female. 2 that are similar? Pick the one that's more handsome.


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## holland

Intelligence matters ...pick the female


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## gagsd

LaRen616 said:


> I think wanting a specific colored dog is perfectly fine. As long as you know what kind of drive and temperment your looking for then what's the problem?


The problem that I see is, even if you have experience with dogs, some of these lines that produce the "black sables" are not only drivey, but come with plenty of real aggression and suspicion. I do not think you can truly appreciate the difference in temperaments unless you have personal experience with them. If your reference point is an average pet dog, then hearing they are "active" and "need a job" may not adequatley describe what you might bring home.

The grandfather to my boys, a very impressive black sable, was described to me by his owner/handler as "primal." That is a pretty strong descriptor. 

And then, if a breeder decides to focus on producing these puppies for a pet market, they often charge more because of the "cool" color, and end up making breeding choices for that market--- no different than the "old-fashioned" GSDs that are bred.

Having said all of that, my young dogs from Czech/DDR lineage have the best temperament, and show the most promise, of any of my dogs. But they are a LOT of dog for Joe Blow.


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## Chris Wild

Liesje said:


> I think therein lies some of the problem. A lot of people I've come across breeding these dogs don't have a very solid knowledge of working and training them themselves. They are marketing the dogs and breedings based on color and type.
> 
> Not to mention everyone seems to have their own definition of what is a "black" sable.


 
Exactly. There is nothing wrong with having a color preference. But there is a lot wrong with focusing just on a color and nothing else. 

Big difference between someone saying "I want X type of dog with A, B, C characteristics and plan to do Z with the dog, and I'd like a black sable" and someone saying "I want a black sable".

It seems more and more there are a whole lot of people doing the later. Or at least it comes off that way when the primary, and sometimes only, thing mentioned that they want is the color. This happens with all the colors from time to time. Black sable just seems to be the latest craze, but in a few years it'll probably be something else.

Breeding specifically for color, and buying specifically based on color are both frought with all sorts of problems. The same can be said for any one trait, physical or mental. But it's even more worrisome when that specific trait being focused on is one that is pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of things (as the saying goes, no good dog is a bad color... and going along with that no bad dog is a good dog even if the perfect color) and as is the case with "black sable" moreso than most other colors, also limits selection to a pretty narrow gene pool.


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## Lilie

Would you agree that most folks who are looking for a particular color (only) are folks who are relatively new to the breed and began their search of for the GSD and then was caught up by color?


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## ThorDog

I did not want to imply that Kreative only had four legged piranhas. I just think that as a first time buyer of a GSD, you might want to focus on disposition and getting a well balanced dog that can fit into being a family companion. Some commercial breeders will give you a pup without spending much time assessing their temperament for a match. If Kreative does that, then kudos for them for placing the more suitable working dogs with police depts and others as family pets. I am in no way criticizing them, they breed for a purpose which they chose and a dog with high drive and energy that gets to work all day will most likely be a tired and happy family companion dog at the end of the day, place that dog with a family that is gone for a few hours a day and he does not get that much stimulation and he might be too much to handle at the end of the day. Does that make sense? My husband works in law enforcement and through the years I have seen the range of K9s, generally same breeding lines but completely different dogs. So you can get a firecracker and a laid back dog in the same litter, that's why picking the breeder in my opinion is more important than the color. Then of course if that breeder has a range of colors with the same lineage than a color preference is fine. To me, personally, health and disposition are #1, then color. I have had a firecracker GSD and we can handle them but I think most first time buyers are not aware of how much dog it can be and that's why there are so many GSDs (and other dogs) in the pounds. I also think it is great that anyone can come here and get advice from people who have been involved with the breed for so long, I am always amazed at how much I learn every day and how helpful everyone is.

Lilie - I completely agree. I did that 17 years ago with my Thor, luckily I got my heart dog but it could have been disastrous. I am glad new popel can come here and learn.


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## gagsd

Lilie said:


> Would you agree that most folks who are looking for a particular color (only) are folks who are relatively new to the breed and began their search of for the GSD and then was caught up by color?


"2nd dog" people 
They have one, and have researched and now have just enough knowledge to have opinions.


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## Castlemaid

It seems to me that in recent times, more and more sable and dark sable working line-type dogs are turning up in rescue and shelters, based on what is posted in the rescue sections of this board. It does seem to indicate and validate the issues presented above of the problem associated with picking a dog based on colour and picking a breeder based on the colour dogs they produce - not a good outcome, in general.

I think that a few years ago, sables and black sables were so rarely seen in the general population, that when I saw a sable for the very first time, I did not even recognize it to be a GSD. Now, a few years later _everyone_ wants a dark sable, not because they want the drives and energy and activity level of a working-line GSD, but only because they are stunning! 
but there is more to a GSD than the coat colour, and unfortunately, the number of dark sable showing up in rescue is a witness to the disservice that many breeders are doing to the breed by trying to provide what people with no real in-depth understanding of these type of dogs want.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Ace952 said:


> Wow 9 months is a long time. Did you not know what you wanted at first?


Ha - 9 months is NOTHING! There are people on the board that have waited YEARS for a specific pup from a specific breeding.

Since I now LOVE the long haired GSDs I know that I'll have a harder time finding a pup. Sure, there are breeders out there that breed long hairs but I don't want buy from a breeder that breeds for a PHYSICAL trait.

I want to buy from a breeder that breeds for the best TEMPERAMENT first and foremost. I can live with an ugly dog that has great temperament but I WON'T live with a beautiful dog that is spooky, unsound, aggressive, mean or can't be part of a pack.

For me, it's solid temperament & good health as the #1 requirements. Long hair sable is my #3 & 4 requirements.

I may have to wait years for all those to come together but since I'm going to be spending 10+ years of my life with the dog I am willing to wait for the RIGHT dog.


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## elisabeth_00117

9 months... haha... I waited almost 4 years.... lol.


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## GSD07

I've seen vom Banach mentioned here before the thread went towards BYBs. I own a dog from Julie, and he is absolutely my heart and soul, he is my true joy and love. Is he a dog for everyone? I don't know. He's slow maturing, suspicious, he is aloof, he's vocal, he is not food or toy oriented, and he demands respect. He's definitely not a dog to be pushed around, or hand a leash to a stranger and expect him to perform. He's also extremely agile, natural tracker, very biddable, a true thinking dog, and his recovery time in unexpected or new situations is immediate. Oh, and he's black  but many of his littermates are black sable. I remember that I sent Julie a 'shopping list' of what I want to see in my puppy from that particular breeding (the color was at the bottom, though), and she absolutely delivered above and beyond. 

Julie is oriented more towards SAR then sport even though dogs from her kennel are known to compete in different venues. That was the reason why I decided to talk to her because I definitely wanted a dog for tracking. It took me a year to find the right puppy.

Connie is a very good breeder, too. The question is, like everyone else above said, what you want to see in your dog except the color?


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## IllinoisNative

I don't think it's one or the other. Do I want a Black Sable? Yes. But that doesn't mean I'm going to a BYB. I will do my research (which is why I come to this board ) and find a breeder who breeds for temperament that also has the color I want.

I've always liked the dark dogs. The darker the better. I'm not a fan of the Black and Tans. Does it mean I think they aren't great dogs? No. But I don't want to own one. And it also doesn't mean I have to sacrifice temperament for it.

It's no different than someone wanting a Black and Red and researching Show Lines. Chances are, they will get a Black and Red.

I will wait for the right dog that has the color and temperament that I want. I'm not going to take it if it comes from a BYB just because I favor a particular color. Color is important to me but so is the temperament, retrieving, biddable, health, etc.

I think some great breeders have been recommended on this thread (vom Banach, Spartenville) who do both. I, personally, want a working dog. I want to do agility and competitive obedience, and I live less than 30 minutes from a GSD training club that does that plus tracking, CGC, socialization courses, etc. I just don't feel like I have to sacrifice to get the dog I want. It's why I'm doing the research now when getting a dog is a few years away for me. I currently have two and they keep me pretty busy. :crazy:


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## cassadee7

I admit when I first came to this board my biggest question was "where can I get a blanket back, dark faced GSD?" Temperament was important to me of course, but more because I didn't want a "nervy" or aggressive dog. I wanted a blanket back, working line, male. Period.

Now, it's been almost a year and I have this board to thank for a good part of my education. I still have a strong preference for a dark dog... one with a primarily black face... but I would gladly take a black & tan, bicolor, black sable or dark sable. I also would be glad to have a female. Because NOW, color is far from my #1 concern. I am looking for a dog who will fit our lives. Appearance and gender are not as important to me now.


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## JakodaCD OA

To answer Chris's question, GOD I hope not..but you know it's happening. 

And I sooo agree with Mary, (and Chris) because you like the 'color', you may end up with to much dog and we'll be reading about it in the 'aggression/problem' sections of this forum..

ACE> if you have the opportunity to train under Hans, I would definately get a dog from him. I think he definately knows his czech dogs, and would be able to pair you up with one that would fit your lifestyle.

When I got Masi, color was the last thing I was looking for, I was looking for intelligence, she just happened to be a dark sable. 

Again, Mary's first paragraph ^^ sums it up nicely. 

Beauty is only skin deep, people need to get out of the mind set of "color" preference (tho we probably all have one!) and look into what you can LIVE with for the next 10-12 years. If you can't "live" with a dog, color isn't going to make a difference. 

I have a 1/2 sister to Mary's 'boys', and again, she summed it up, they are alot of dog for Joe Blow. 

I'd rather have an ugly dog with a great temperament vs a beautiful one with a lousy temperment.


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## Jessiewessie99

Sometimes people rather choose beauty over brains and then regret it later.


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## Andaka

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Sometimes people rather choose beauty over brains and then regret it later.


But you can have both -- it just takes more research.


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## holland

I don't get this thread really at all. Working lines only come in so many colors ...well for that matter so do show lines. Don't think it is hard at all to find a breeding which is a good breeding and you are also getting the color you want. If someone just seems to be looking for a color and you are a breeder and that concerns you-simple don't sell them a dog.


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## IllinoisNative

Andaka said:


> But you can have both -- it just takes more research.


Exactly.



holland said:


> I don't get this thread really at all. Working lines only come in so many colors ...well for that matter so do show lines. Don't think it is hard at all to find a breeding which is a good breeding and you are also getting the color you want. If someone just seems to be looking for a color and you are a breeder and.


That's what I thought. Getting the color you want doesn't have to translate into getting a poorly bred dog. There are great reputable breeders where the chances of getting a black sable are good if you look at their breeding stock.

I just don't think it's an either/or situation.

I do agree that people shouldn't necessarily get a black sable if they don't want a working dog, etc. Maybe that's what some people meant when they said don't get a dog just because of a color knowing sables are working dogs. It may very well be too much dog for the average dog owner. That's a fair point.


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## holland

Can someone explain what too much dog is people keep saying that too Like somehow how these dogs are too good for certain people or something. Maybe I am just a little simple but all you have to do is be willing to spend some time with your dogs don't think owning a working line dog means that you have to be a rocket scientist


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## Doc

call the question ...


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## Emoore

holland said:


> Can someone explain what too much dog is people keep saying that too Like somehow how these dogs are too good for certain people or something. Maybe I am just a little simple but all you have to do is be willing to spend some time with your dogs don't think owning a working line dog means that you have to be a rocket scientist



Too much dog is the main reason so many dogs aged 8 months to 2 years end up in rescue. Too much dog is the reason given most of the time when we get a working-line dog in our rescue. Working line dogs tend to be very high-energy, very intelligent, and very high drive. These dogs NEED a job. If you don't give them something to do with their brains and their energy they'll find their own job which often involves taking over the household. These aren't dogs you can take to one basic obedience class and give them a half-hour walk per day. You don't have to be a rocket scientist, but you have to be willing to devote more time and energy than you would to your typical pet dog.


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## holland

I am not looking for a black sable right now ...thanks


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## Jessiewessie99

Andaka said:


> But you can have both -- it just takes more research.


I got both.lol. Well I got lucky at a shelter.lol. I think(mostly for me) when I hear of Showline GSDs I think of Black & Tan, Black & Red, White, and Black, and Bi-Color. Then when I hear about Working line GSDs I think of Dark Sables, Sables, Silver Sables, and Black. Maybe its because I mostly see those colors with those lines.lol

Well Molly has the bitch stripe and a the common Black & Tan in Showlines, but has the brains and personality of a Working line GSD, and Tanner is all black(with a white spot) of most Working lines, but has the drive and personality of a Showline GSD.lol.


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## Glacier

holland said:


> Can someone explain what too much dog is people keep saying that too Like somehow how these dogs are too good for certain people or something. Maybe I am just a little simple but all you have to do is be willing to spend some time with your dogs don't think owning a working line dog means that you have to be a rocket scientist


This is also what I thought. I will be a first time owner, however I'm looking for a dog I can spend 4 hours or so a day with exercising/training, so naturally I'm not looking for a couch potato. So, I'm want a working line dog and I'm prepared for the time investment I have to make.


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## FredD

Emoore said:


> Too much dog is the main reason so many dogs aged 8 months to 2 years end up in rescue. Too much dog is the reason given most of the time when we get a working-line dog in our rescue. Working line dogs tend to be very high-energy, very intelligent, and very high drive. These dogs NEED a job. If you don't give them something to do with their brains and their energy they'll find their own job which often involves taking over the household. These aren't dogs you can take to one basic obedience class and give them a half-hour walk per day. You don't have to be a rocket scientist, but you have to be willing to devote more time and energy than you would to your typical pet dog.


I Agree!


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## Jessiewessie99

Has the OP chosen a breeder yet?


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## JakodaCD OA

I think a person can have both as well, hopefully they know exactly what they are getting, which entails doing your homework.

To much dog = what Emoore said


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## Emoore

JakodaCD OA said:


> To much dog = what Emoore said


Yeah, it's almost like I've talked to a bunch of people giving up their young GSDs.  My Cashdog was one of those young working-line dogs that was given up to rescue for being too much dog. When I'm ready for another I don't think it will take me long to find one; we seem to get them with shocking regularity.


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## Jessiewessie99

There was a beautiful Red Sable male GSD at my shelter. He was from working lines from the looks of it. I think another reason alot of working line GSDs end up in shelters is because of this economy. Well that could be said for many shelter dogs.


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## onyx'girl

Thats too bad the breeders aren't taking back what they produce if the don't screen the buyers well enough. Especially with the working line. As long as the dog goes to a rescue vs a shelter. I guess if they went back to a breeder who isn't diligent on contract first rights and screening they'd just end up at a shelter again eventually...


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## JakodaCD OA

Unfortunately today, I think alot of people 'think' dogs train themselves. They may see a well behaved, gsd for example, and listen to how smart they are, go for it without having any thought for the future. 

They then, end up with a biting machine, who is bouncing off the walls and rather than put the time and effort into training, decide they can't live with them. 

I always try to recommend an older dog to a first time gsd owner, whether it be a rescue or from a breeder. You get what you see.


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## ThorDog

I agree. My Father in law came to our house one day when our 10 weeks old pup was tired and sleeping. He was convinced he wanted one beacuse they are so calm. He doesn't even like dogs!!!! So basically I said you are getting a dog over my dead body! And made sure he saw our little land shark at his best (worst) to convince him that pups don't sleep all the time. Yes, a lot of people go watch a movie with a GSD and think they want one. I can't tell you how many people saw our well behaved GSD and wanted one too. I agree that buyers need to be screened and that a good breeder will have the right of first refusal in his/her contract.


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## Ace952

JakodaCD OA said:


> ACE> if you have the opportunity to train under Hans, I would definately get a dog from him. I think he definately knows his czech dogs, and would be able to pair you up with one that would fit your lifestyle.
> 
> When I got Masi, color was the last thing I was looking for, I was looking for intelligence, she just happened to be a dark sable.


I got lucky and Hans has a pup for me. He is only 2 weeks old so i will have to wait a few weeks before he can be shipped and brought home since he is currently in the Czech and will be imported. 
I am not crazy enough to think I can train the dog myself so I will be seeing Hans every weekend (only a hour away from me) to do obedience and all of my PP training with the dog.
I also am friends with a woman who helps trains police and military dogs so I am making sure to surround myself with knowledgeable people to help me along the way. 
I did get lucky and get a black sable but who knows what the the color will be ponce they are grown. I am happy though to have a a new family member especially since it will be just me and my pup.

I agree with what everyone has said on here. Looking for just a color isn't good. Color is nice to have if that is what you want, you just want to make sure you deal with a breeder who doesn't breed just for color but is rather looking at the whole package. If your willing to wait, you can surely get what you want.


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## JakodaCD OA

congrats on your new puppy , I am jealous you get to train with Hans!!


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## Ace952

Thanks! I am super anxious and can't wait till he turns 8 weeks and can be shipped here. Im looking fwd to the challenge as well as the life change.

I will certainly let you know how traning is once I start obedience with Hans.


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## ThorDog

Robin - I got Kip yesterday from Kim and he is a sweetheart! Now we are part of extended family - you have his brother from a previous Rookie/Tika litter right? Kip is 14 weeks and has a very good disposition, not mouthy and not jumpy. I look forward to posting pictures and updates on him! Kim was very patient about answering 500 questions from me on Kip and having us meet the parents. Rookie and Tika are just the sweetest dogs! We wanted to take them all home. :wub:


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## JakodaCD OA

oh Thor, I am also very jealous,,you got a Rookie puppy!!! LUCKY YOU!!! He is one handsome dude,,now I wanna see pics!!!!!


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## Ace952

This is too funny. After wanting a black sable and picking a pup from Jinopo via Hans at AlpineK9, it turns out that we now see the pup will be ....bi-color!! lol!
I am happy and excited though and can't wait. I have another 4 weeks before he can be shipped. I didn't expect bi color out of this breeding but as with genetics, you can never know for sure.


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## Samba

I like bi-color too!


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## JakodaCD OA

ohhhhhh I miss my bi color boy,,can't wait to see pics!


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## ThorDog

Funny how things work out. I wasn't really looking at getting an all black GSD because it would remind me too much of my late Thor who passed last year at 15. But our #1 was temperament and health so wouldn't you know it that the perfect pup was waiting for us and he is an all black boy! I have to post pics soon. He continues to amaze me on his very calm nature. I was expecting so much puppy trouble and was prepared and wouldn't you know it this little guy is just happy go lucky. No mouthing of us or our son at all, settles down quickly and sleeps the whole night!!! :wub: he is so gentle and happy. Wow!!!!


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## JakodaCD OA

ahhh things happen for a reason, I can't wait to see pics of Kip!


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## Ace952

Here are pictures of my pup from the breeder.
Here he is right now at 4 weeks. He looks so big to be so young.
Another 4 weeks to go before he can be shipped!

Weird how the males came out bi color and the females came out all black or dark sable.
Oh well, I can't wait till he arrives.


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## mjbgsd

Aww what a cutie!


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## JakodaCD OA

he is soooo cute!


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## ThorDog

We just adore Kip, or Kippy as my son calls him - he could not have a better disposition! So sweet and loyal and so gentle. I also included pics of my late Thor - the resemblance is incredible!


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## onyx'girl

I'm so glad the new pup Kip is working out for you! He is adorable!


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## JakodaCD OA

he is soooooooo cute! and DOES look alot like Thor..I'm sure you'll enjoy many years together


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## Ace952

great looking pup!


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