# euthanizing an aggressive dog



## Banner614 (Aug 23, 2014)

I have a 4 year old GSD that has had aggression towards people since four months old and severe dog aggression since a year or so. I have been to several trainers but he still requires a ton of management to keep him from going after a person or dog. I am now considering euthanizing him due to the stress of managing him. I guess i just feel like i am doing it out of selfish reasons as i for the most part can keep him from hurting someone it is just very stressful and i worry that if i slip up someone gets hurt. I have to work to avoid strangers and dogs when we are out. If they ignore him he'll ignore them but if a dog or person looks like they plan to approach us he explodes and no amount of corrections or desensitization has gotten rid of this behavior. I feel like we've finally hit a wall and this is just as good as he is capable of behaving with his weak nerves. He is also not able to be loose in the house due to my fear that he will bite someone as he will charge the door and bark/growl whenever someone enters even if he knows them and he is often confined to a room or his crate. 

At what point is it acceptable to euthanize an aggressive dog that is otherwise physically healthy? He doesn't have a bite record but that is almost solely due to management.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

I am sorry you are dealing with this. I have been there with a rescue.

If you have exhausted breed knowledgeable trainers, and you have done full medical check, yes sometimes hard decisions need to be made.

What did the trainers say?

I would not feel comfortable steering you via a forum post. So to answer your questions the criteria, IMO, for having to PTS is:
-Experienced breed trainers tell you it is an option to consider
-All medical tests done
-You live in fear of making a mistake in the management theory and it puts you and others at true risk 

Again, sorry. I know what it is like


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Does anyone in your area use guard dogs? You could check with a salvage yard or other companies. The issue would be getting him to accept at least one person to handle him.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

It would help to know how long you worked with trainers, what did you try and for how long?

Also, what did the trainers say about the dog, prognosis?

Were the trainers able to handle him, and if so how long did it take for them to be able to handle him? What happens when you take him to the vet? 

Regardless of any of the above and regardless too of whether he is legitimately dangerous, is he happy? Does he have much quality of life? Sounds like yours is being impacted by owning him.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Also, is the breeder of the dog a resource? What do they say?


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## Digs1 (Mar 5, 2018)

It's acceptable to put your dog down if you think it's acceptable,but you'll feel guilty unless you exhaust every other option.

So for your own sake as well as his,do that first.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I feel terrible for you. Would it be a realistic option to muzzle him often so the fear of bites isn't such an issue?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Living with an aggressive dog is very hard. Sometimes you have only 2 choices.
1. Isolate the dog and let them live out their lives (this is what we did but we are in the country and she liked kids so it wasn't terrible)
2. Release them from their demons.

Have you tried muzzle training him? Can you isolate him from society?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Banner614 said:


> I have a 4 year old GSD that has had aggression towards people since four months old and severe dog aggression since a year or so. I have been to several trainers but he still requires a ton of management to keep him from going after a person or dog. I am now considering euthanizing him due to the stress of managing him. I guess i just feel like i am doing it out of selfish reasons as i for the most part can keep him from hurting someone it is just very stressful and i worry that if i slip up someone gets hurt. I have to work to avoid strangers and dogs when we are out. If they ignore him he'll ignore them but if a dog or person looks like they plan to approach us he explodes and no amount of corrections or desensitization has gotten rid of this behavior. I feel like we've finally hit a wall and this is just as good as he is capable of behaving with his weak nerves. He is also not able to be loose in the house due to my fear that he will bite someone as he will charge the door and bark/growl whenever someone enters even if he knows them and he is often confined to a room or his crate.
> 
> At what point is it acceptable to euthanize an aggressive dog that is otherwise physically healthy? He doesn't have a bite record but that is almost solely due to management.


Where you located?


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

OP, I am very sorry you are having these issues with Banner. I was wondering, though, why you didn't post about your problems sooner. You have posted some very nice pictures of your beautiful dog. Last posts were in 2015, when Banner was 10 months old. You never indicated there was a problem. Over the past 4 years, you could have been sharing the training you have done, the issues he has, and the remedies you have tried. We may have been in a better position to offer advice if you had shared your struggles with us. 

We don't have enough information to form any kind of opinion. Besides, we are strangers on the internet. You need someone hands on to evaluate your dog. We are talking about the dogs' life. The price is too high for us to make guesses.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Have you read:

The Midnight Dog Walkers: Positive Training and Practical Advice for Living With Reactive and Aggressive Dogs by Annie Phenix?

She's a professional trainer that works with aggressive dogs. I think you would benefit from reading the book, she lived what you are currently going through. 

Here's her site:

What We Do - Phenix Dogs Training


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## Mithuna (Dec 16, 2013)

Sometimes certain dogs find themselves in environments where they are not suitable, and it becomes difficult. About 2 summers ago I got a beautiful working adult GSD out of old working lines ( Busecker Schloss, Sthollhammer, Furmanschoff Haus Himpel and Bungalow ) from a prison officer , and for free; even though the dog had a bite history, I thought I got a deal. The dog was very high drive with Zero off switch. The officer told me that the dog could be easily managed by hand feeding him. He said if I hand feed him , the dog would associate me with a resource ( food ) and the dog is more likely to protect me. What the officer said turned out to be true, but hand feeding that dog was a night mare . The dog would literally fight me for the food and give me very little room for doing it carefully, and in a few days he was winning. Upon advise of my trainer I returned the dog, as he said that dog was setting me up for bite. I returned the dog to the original breeder, who was bit a few days after taking him in. The wife of the breeder refused to have " their baby " put down, and he is now living out his life on a farm in NJ.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We get a pet with expectations of sharing our lives with a canine companion. We provide them with love, vetting, food, grooming, and cleaning up after them. They provide us with health benefits: lower blood pressure, increase in exercise, increased endorphins, decrease in depression, improved mental/emotional health, and they provide us with proud moments, and enjoyment. For this to happen, we provide training and leadership, and the dog complies with training and leadership. 

The vast majority of dogs are perfectly happy to enjoy our leftover space, leftover time, leftover food, and are content with whatever we give them, and are happy to follow our lead. 

They are animals. 

Sometimes a domestic animal is not wired right and is not safe around people. Keeping them as a pet is a lawsuit waiting to happen. Rehoming them shouldn't be a consideration. Instead of lowering our blood pressure, they make us hyper-vigilent. Instead of increasing our social interactions, they have us out walking them at 2am when we are unlikely to see people. Instead of improving our health, they increase our stress. 

In the past such an animal would be shot and buried without too much concern. Dogs were viewed differently and if a dog was not compatible with human life, they would be eliminated. Now people want to save every dog, and we are going to have more and more of such dogs because some of them will breed before they are altered or killed. My guess is that this instability will be passed on. 

Yes, you will feel guilty if you do not try everything. Even then, you will probably question what you might have done or might not have done with respect to the dog. Even then you will feel guilty. Should you feel guilty? No. If the dog cannot manage in the human world, then it has an unmanageable flaw, and the thing to do is to "release him from his demons." 

The good news is that you do not have to shoot your dog. The drugs the vet will give your dog will anesthetize him, and then they will shut him down. Generally, it is not traumatic for the dog. Generally. 

If you did not sign up for a _bad_ dog, and you have done your part in training and managing and leading him. Then put the dog down. It is sad. 

I am sorry you are having this problem. Having a pet is not supposed to be like that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The German Shepherd standard calls for a breed that can naturally protect and guard. They do this with various degrees of aggression. That is what is called a "good" German Shepherd, not a dog that is bad or wired wrong. This is one of the traits that has kept the GSD in second place for popularity for many, many years. When you get a German Shepherd, it is one of the traits that you sign up for if the dog has been properly bred. 

It is very common for people who own this breed to have to crate or lock them up in another room when they have guests. If you can't walk your dog around people or dogs, then just find somewhere that you can go to minimize such encounters such as industrial parks on weekends or off hours, behind strip malls, isolated trails, along rivers, along railroad tracks, isolated country roads, etc. 

You have a very nice looking dog. I have to wonder whether your choice of breeders was well thought out and you got what paid for or whether you got lucky with a backyard breeder. Regardless, as someone else already mentioned, there are homes for dogs like this that can and will utilize his natural talents. If you no longer want the responsibility of owning a German Shepherd, then find one of these homes. They are out there. For your dog's sake, I hope you do right by him.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Where are you located? There are trainers who can help. 

I have found that a solid recall, heel, and down can save your dog's life. Literally.

I put some of my dogs out in the yard when I have visitors. It's not a big deal for me.

I don't see aggression as a "demon" unless the dog is chronically nervous and unhappy. The dog is not possessed or mentally unstable just because he acts aggressive to strangers and other dogs. 

I would have real issues if the dog was aggressive to the family he lives with. If he is only aggressive to strangers, it's not super difficult to manage. 

I'd exhaust all other options before euthanasia. But I consider any dog or puppy I adopt or buy to be a lifelong commitment, and I am willing to adjust my lifestyle for a dog- to a degree others might not. Not judging those that don't want to make that commitment, but some awareness of the breed traits is important and GSD are protective, "aggressive" and often reactive. It's not a bad thing, you have to look at the whole package when it come to judging a dog, but it does require a lot more of the owner than, say, a golden retriever. 

I don't want to turn off the OP, or sound like I'm judging, but I do think a really experienced trainer could be a lifeline for this dog. There are some great trainers out there and some horrible ones, the forum can help find you a good one.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

To add- nosework and tracking are awesome outlets for a dog who isn't comfortable with strangers or strange dogs. 

It gives them a ton of confidence and lets the owner have fun working the dog's strengths. 

I'm not talking competitive or SAR level stuff, just have fun with finding objects (detection dog), tracking/trailing, etc. You will enjoy it, and so will the dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Please try to find another home for him. If he has not already bitten someone then he doesn’t have a bite history. I would first try contacting a local IPO club, and visit them in person. Talk to someone with aggression experience, explain the situation and see if they know of anyone who might be able to handle the dog and want a dog with high aggression. There are people out there.

Managing a dog is very stressful and not for everyone. I had a rescue who needed management and it was challenging, but he was also good with some people, which made it easier than your situation.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If you can't walk your dog around people or dogs, then just find somewhere that you can go to minimize such encounters such as industrial parks on weekends or off hours, behind strip malls, isolated trails, along rivers, along railroad tracks, isolated country roads, etc.


That advice is the reason why our forest trails, river beaches, rain or shine, are no longer safe because people take their aggressive dogs, adopted out by a local no-kill shelter, to these areas. But guess what? People with well trained dogs also like to walk there but now avoid it.
It doesn't matter if a dog is good looking or ugly as a bat. This should not be a consideration for who lives and who dies.
I have had to put down a GSD decades ago because of high liability and high stress levels. He had bitten a child on the head, resulting in a good scrape. After that he became predatory to small children, besides ours. Now I know better, I do better. He is the very reason I became a trainer for pet dogs. Looking back, yes, maybe I could have saved him by keeping him locked up (in a home with young children?!) and run myself ragged as a mother. I know this is not an excuse but it was the situation back then. There were no doggy shrinks yet and all trainers told me that he was a loaded gun.
I like Selzer's advice; it is raw but honest. 
OP, you make the decision that is best for you and in your situation and don't look back. He seems a high liability and safety risk and you cannot put that onto someone else, no matter how remote they walk. At one point everyone encounters other people who will be at risk. Sometimes you should ask yourself, what your life was like before this problem. We tend to get desensitized under stress and do not realize how much sanity we have sacrificed already.
Keep us updated. I know this is very tough.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

wolfy dog said:


> That advice is the reason why our forest trails, river beaches, rain or shine, are no longer safe because people take their aggressive dogs, adopted out by a local no-kill shelter, to these areas. But guess what? People with well trained dogs also like to walk there but now avoid it.
> It doesn't matter if a dog is good looking or ugly as a bat. This should not be a consideration for who lives and who dies.
> I have had to put down a GSD decades ago because of high liability and high stress levels. He had bitten a child on the head, resulting in a good scrape. After that he became predatory to small children, besides ours. Now I know better, I do better. He is the very reason I became a trainer for pet dogs. Looking back, yes, maybe I could have saved him by keeping him locked up (in a home with young children?!) and run myself ragged as a mother. I know this is not an excuse but it was the situation back then. There were no doggy shrinks yet and all trainers told me that he was a loaded gun.
> I like Selzer's advice; it is raw but honest.
> ...


Who is talking about shelter dogs or breeds bred to be inappropriately aggressive which fill our shelter systems? Please don't confuse those breeds with ours, apples and oranges.

It absolutely can matter what a dog looks like as the phenotype of the dog can hold clues as to the dog's history and genetic makeup when such information is not provided or needing to ask for it.

I am talking about a German Shepherd that as per the owner can be walked among people and dogs and only has issues when it feels it might be challenged. I never said let the dog off leash in isolated areas. I said take the dog there and walk him. If you feel threatened, unsafe or intimidated by a leashed dog then your fears aren't the result of a dog's presence.

Entertaining the thought of euthanizing a dog for being bred to the standard is no more acceptable than presenting non representative dogs as typical specimens of the breed. That only results in more people in over their heads. It is dishonest and misleading.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If the dog has a solid recall, downs at distance, heels on command, and is kept on leash or in sight at all times, he is not a liability. 

Another dog can rush you, sure, but there are ways to fairly easily fend off a loose dog. If your dog is under control, it is unlikely that there will be issues if the owner is proactive. 

I'm on board with euthanizing if the dog is unpredictable and aggressive to his own family. I am not if the dog is simply stranger or other dog aggressive. In this case, the dog might be putting on a big show, and has learned that it works. It may not make a ton of difference in terms of training, but he may not be truly dog-human aggressive- as in eager to go forward and actually pick a fight. Often, a dog like this will go into avoidance fairly easily, and it's pretty easy to transition this dog from avoidance to indifference (aloof). 

Almost always, a dog like that can be managed and trained for life in a way that will give the dog quality of life while keeping others safe.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Who will take a dog like this and rehab him safely? Most people who can handle this, already have dogs and are hard to find. I wouldn't trust rescues to find him a home either. 
Question to the OP: are YOU afraid of him?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A dog with proper temperament is not a loaded gun around strangers or strange dogs unless it is trained to be that way. A dog with proper temperament can demonstrate aggression, but takes his cues from his owner. Most dogs of excellent character NEVER act out the way this dog is doing. This behavior is more like a dog that is so reactive that he is a danger, that is weak nerve, not strong anything. But I haven't seen the dog, lived with the dog, and do not want to judge a dog on just what the owner types in a moment in time and space. On the other hand, if the owner is feeling that the dog is dangerous, then it probably is, and an owner should not feel judged for taking action that can't be easy.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> If the dog has a solid recall, downs at distance, heels on command, and is kept on leash or in sight at all times, he is not a liability.
> 
> Another dog can rush you, sure, but there are ways to fairly easily fend off a loose dog. If your dog is under control, it is unlikely that there will be issues if the owner is proactive.
> 
> ...


I agree. I managed a rescue that desperately needed a home and gave him a wonderful life. After a few years, he was able to be around people who were not afraid of him, but it took a lot of work on our parts. I don’t fault the OP if they want to rehome the dog, but it’s not clear to me the dog needs to be euthanized. 

Euthanization is permanent and I don’t think we should be telling the OP to do that, but offering support if that is what they decide to do. Like you and others, I see that they still have options. If they run through all of them and still can’t find another home for the dog, then they may not have a choice. Right now, they do.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> Who will take a dog like this and rehab him safely? Most people who can handle this, already have dogs and are hard to find. I wouldn't trust rescues to find him a home either.
> Question to the OP: are YOU afraid of him?


Rescues won’t take a dog with a bite history but a good rescue with a trainer on board and experienced foster families will take one with aggression. One of my local rescues took a WL dog that was given to them because the owners, who had the dog as a puppy, felt the dog was dangerous at 18 months. Not only wasn’t the dog evaluated to be a danger, they found it had good working drive. A LEO, not a K9 handler, took the dog as a pet, worked with their department K9 officers in their free time, and was able to title the dog in sports. It’s not a dog that will take well to strangers even after that, but it makes a great sport pet. So, yes, there are people who will take on a challenge if they are prepared for it.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

So a dog that has not bitten. Might be civil. Shows traits that can translate into a good working dog. Should be euthanized. Sight unseen. 
Who's to say the OP wouldn't just be better off with a lab? 
This breed should have a modicum of human aggression. Should be a strong dog, not a powder puff. Dog aggression happens. 

I know people with dogs that will bite. My female will bite. My male has held someone at the door. Does that mean they should be euthanized? 

I think people on here are awfully quick to euthanize a perfectly fine dog with not knowing all the facts. 
Yes there are dogs that should be euthanized, but I dont see anything that has been posted that says to kill the dog. 

It's a shame that the euthanasia drum gets beaten so quickly for a dog that hasn't done anything wrong.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> Rescues won’t take a dog with a bite history but a good rescue with a trainer on board and experienced foster families will take one with aggression. One of my local rescues took a WL dog that was given to them because the owners, who had the dog as a puppy, felt the dog was dangerous at 18 months. Not only wasn’t the dog evaluated to be a danger, they found it had good working drive. A LEO, not a K9 handler, took the dog as a pet, worked with their department K9 officers in their free time, and was able to title the dog in sports. It’s not a dog that will take well to strangers even after that, but it makes a great sport pet. So, yes, there are people who will take on a challenge if they are prepared for it.


There are people who live in remote or bad areas and business owners that want and have a need for such a dog. I remember a dog similar to this was dumped in a local shelter. I was in the market for a dog at the time and called. The shelter said a rescue had already taken the dog and that they were getting a ton of phone calls inquiring about him. The homes are there, the effort just needs to be made to find and screen the homes.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> So a dog that has not bitten. Might be civil. Shows traits that can translate into a good working dog. Should be euthanized. Sight unseen.
> Who's to say the OP wouldn't just be better off with a lab?
> This breed should have a modicum of human aggression. Should be a strong dog, not a powder puff. Dog aggression happens.
> 
> ...


Just going off of the first post, I get the impression that OP is weary of controlling and managing this dog. It is not the dog's fault. His owner just doesn't want the responsibility, liability and work involved anymore. Yes, for some people it can be demanding and overwhelming. That doesn't mean they should kill the dog or be encouraged to kill the dog by members of this forum.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> There are people who live in remote or bad areas and business owners that want and have a need for such a dog. I remember a dog similar to this was dumped in a local shelter. I was in the market for a dog at the time and called. The shelter said a rescue had already taken the dog and that they were getting a ton of phone calls inquiring about him. The homes are there, the effort just needs to be made to find and screen the homes.


I agree, we are confusing a dog that is warning off people and other dogs from getting too close with a dog that is attacking and harming any dog or person in its path. I was one of those people who was willing to foster a dog in need and found a hidden gem. The dog is giving off a warning, not attacking. I also agree it’s too much for the OP. If someone needs to have people in and out of their home and doesn’t have the ability to manage the dog, then it’s not a match, especially if there are children involved. People have the right to have a dog that is what they want. Dogs have a right to be raised in a home that wants and loves them. I may have mentioned that the trainer we used for our fear biter told us that 90% of his clients would have put that dog down. I answered that is why I have him rather than your other clients.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Unless there is more going on this dog seems manageable, based on what we are told. 
I have owned a few dogs that I walked at 4am, kept secured in locked yards or runs, crated when people visited, etc. It didn't bother me much but I wasn't a social butterfly to start with. 
For the whole 13 years that Bud was with me, people learned to call before dropping by and I got pretty blunt about it. Signs on the fence clearly stated "Do Not Enter! Dogs Bites!" I had my phone number on the door, I contacted utility companies and had them note that I had an aggressive dog in the yard, I warned neighbors and delivery people and anyone who may come to my house. I padlocked gates and modified fences to prevent escape and I stayed vigilant. I wanted to take him places that we never went and I wished he had had a different start. I had what I had and I handled it. 
If the OP is afraid of the dog, then this will not work. Otherwise it sounds like not that big a deal.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cloudpump said:


> So a dog that has not bitten. Might be civil. Shows traits that can translate into a good working dog. Should be euthanized. Sight unseen.
> Who's to say the OP wouldn't just be better off with a lab?
> This breed should have a modicum of human aggression. Should be a strong dog, not a powder puff. Dog aggression happens.
> 
> ...


Once upon a time, I had a dog that reached the teenage stage and decided he wanted to be a butt-head around other dogs. I had him in PetsMart and he lunged at another dog. I had had him to puppy and basic classes, but decided I should get him back into classes, so I called another trainer and explained exactly what had happened. 

The trainer thought I was bringing a dog that had already bit three people and chewed up and killed several pet dogs and cats. I finally figured out that folks might tend to minimize when they explain to a trainer what is going on with their dog. 

Be that as it may be. The thing is, I think that far more people fail to do what they should when it comes to the disposition of a dog that exhibits inappropriate aggression.

I'm not a bit concerned that people are going to run and euthanize their pet for no reason. I think the opposite is true. I think more folks will try and try and try with a dog until they have lost all confidence in themselves as a dog owner. And then they will try and try and try to rehome a dog that shouldn't be rehomed at all. And it is true that most of the folks who can manage serious aggression in a dog, have enough dogs, and are in no position to take on a project-dog. And failing to rehome or give to a shelter or rescue with full disclosure, they will minimize or omit completely the problems the dog has to get him gone. Because they really cannot euthanize their pet, even if the dog is a serious danger. And then someone gets seriously injured.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

cloudpump said:


> So a dog that has not bitten. Might be civil. Shows traits that can translate into a good working dog. Should be euthanized. Sight unseen.
> Who's to say the OP wouldn't just be better off with a lab?
> This breed should have a modicum of human aggression. Should be a strong dog, not a powder puff. Dog aggression happens.
> 
> ...


I agree. There's also a human at the other end of the leash that is part of the equation, what kind of handling has this dog had?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> Once upon a time, I had a dog that reached the teenage stage and decided he wanted to be a butt-head around other dogs. I had him in PetsMart and he lunged at another dog. I had had him to puppy and basic classes, but decided I should get him back into classes, so I called another trainer and explained exactly what had happened.
> 
> The trainer thought I was bringing a dog that had already bit three people and chewed up and killed several pet dogs and cats. I finally figured out that folks might tend to minimize when they explain to a trainer what is going on with their dog.
> 
> ...


Meh, there are plenty of people out there that would take an aggressive dog. Aggression is not a fault in a breed that should have aggression. 

Are there dogs that should be euthanized? Yes. Ones that have actually bitten for an invalid reason. But this dog has done nothing wrong.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> So a dog that has not bitten. Might be civil. Shows traits that can translate into a good working dog. Should be euthanized. Sight unseen.
> Who's to say the OP wouldn't just be better off with a lab?
> This breed should have a modicum of human aggression. Should be a strong dog, not a powder puff. Dog aggression happens.
> 
> ...


My personal opinion and observation on this forum is it really depends on the day of the week and which way the wind is blowing on this subject. Seriously depends on how an OP presents their situation. Search and you will find posts declaring a dog unsafe and must be euthanized. Then you will find just as many posts for the dog being judged to harshly and it's the owners fault and the dog should be rehomed to a proper home with training. The cases of each are many times very similar and depends on how the OP in each case comes across as an owner/handler IMHO.

Terminology: Aggressive or civil: Aggressive or defensive: Aggressive or protective; Aggressive or possessive: Aggressive due to lack of respect/training or not aggressive and just lacks boundries. Then you have overall temperament and genetics. And the list goes on. 

Personally I can't say if this dog is truly aggressive or not. If I were to venture a guess based on the tone of the OP. The OP chose the wrong breed of dog and just can't handle what is in front of them. Or maybe just doesn't want to deal with what it takes to manage a breed that has protective, territorial traits by nature. Do I think this dog should be euthanized solely by what the OP has stated as issues...NO. Is it my dog ....NO. It's why I really dislike this type of thread. The OP wants validation from total strangers to do something that should only be done at the recommendation of professionals with experience with working breeds that have evaluated the dog in person. 

Sorry for the rant...
@cloudpump I totally agree with you on this one!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> Once upon a time, I had a dog that reached the teenage stage and decided he wanted to be a butt-head around other dogs. I had him in PetsMart and he lunged at another dog. I had had him to puppy and basic classes, but decided I should get him back into classes, so I called another trainer and explained exactly what had happened.
> 
> The trainer thought I was bringing a dog that had already bit three people and chewed up and killed several pet dogs and cats. I finally figured out that folks might tend to minimize when they explain to a trainer what is going on with their dog.
> 
> ...


I agree with you when a dog has inappropriate and out of control aggression. I also said no one who can’t handle it should have a dog like this. Only experienced and confident handlers who can manage the dog should own one like this. But so far this dog has not crossed a line. I don’t think anyone who is saying what I am here, would have a problem euthanizing a dog that is dangerous to everyone but I don’t hear that is the case from the OP.

An example of dangerous dogs. My neighbor rescued a mixed breed dog that was supposedly a Ridgeless Ridgeback. It was not. The female was pregnant. She took the dog home and when the puppies were born, the mother bit the vet and seriously hurt his hand. So as soon as the dog were weaned, her vet put the mother down and the woman kept two male puppies, also of undetermined parentage. I saw the dogs recently. They were muzzled and could not get near any other dogs. The woman mostly keeps them locked up in her yard and it’s likely those puppies are growing up to be just like the mom. I will not go near them, even though I met them as young puppies after the mother was gone. I was surprised she kept any, given how dangerous the mom was, but the vet said if she raised them right they would not bite. Maybe, maybe not. The difference is that mother dog gave no warning, she just ripped the vet open. No growl, nothing. The adoptive family could not get near her either. They threw her food on the kitchen floor and closed the door. It may have been because she was pregnant and scared, but to me that would not be acceptable aggression.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have never had a dog that has had aggression toward people since four months old, that it explodes if someone starts to approach, that requires tons of management and has been to several trainers. That isn't normal. And a dog that hasn't calmed down in 4 years? But as I have said, I haven't evaluated the dog. The owner has lived with the dog and is considering euthanasia. My guess is that the dog is beyond normal management/training/leadership. My guess is that he is stressing his owner out, seriously.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

All of the things mentioned can easily be attributed to the owner / handler. That is no reason to kill off a dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The dog at least deserves an evaluation with an experienced German Shepherd handler who is familiar with this type of behavior, not just a pet dog trainer. We haven’t seen the dog. It’s possible we would agree with the OP. We can’t do that here, but someone local on the ground can.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> All of the things mentioned can easily be attributed to the owner / handler. That is no reason to kill off a dog.


I disagree. Human aggression at 4 months is not normal or good temperament, I don't care what the lines are, and I really don't care what the handler does. A four month old might if it is starving. A puppy that young does not have appropriate aggression toward humans. 

So why do we think that management and multiple trainers, are signs that the owner is a bad owner? 

At some point owners can throw in the towel on a dog. A GSD of good character usually has their owner won over by 4 years of age.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Leash frustration can easily appear as human aggression. That is created and caused by the owner / handler. 

Suspicion in a pup can be often be seen in a pup a few weeks old and it not considered abnormal in this breed. Remember, the standard says to guard and protect, suspicion and aggression comes with the territory.

Just because YOU don't like or want a puppy that shows signs of HA at 4 months does not mean that the puppy has bad character or bad temperament. It simply means that such a puppy is not your cup of tea. 

Management should be practiced until reliable training is in place, that is on the owner. Choice of trainers is on the owner. 

A mismatched GSD of good character with an owner that was looking for a sable Golden Retriever will never win its owner over at any age.

Just thought I would mention I recently saw a well bred litter advertised for sale where the breeder made a point of the puppies growling at the breeder when handled and they don't even have their eyes open yet. Do you think you can assess if a puppy has bad nerves at that age? I doubt it. 

An owner can throw the towel in any time they want when a dog is not a good match or they simply tire of it. That still doesn't mean you kill off the dog.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

@selzer I thought you've posted stories of people misreading your pups and unnecessarily resorting to prongs and ecollars due to what the owners "percieved" as aggression or dominance? People can and do end up with dogs beyond their capabilities and from what little has been posted it's certainly possible here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Nigel said:


> @*selzer* I thought you've posted stories of people misreading your pups and unnecessarily resorting to prongs and ecollars due to what the owners "percieved" as aggression or dominance? People can and do end up with dogs beyond their capabilities and from what little has been posted it's certainly possible here.


Yes, people do misread puppies. Usually serious human aggression is not an issue. Not that young. Has anyone suggested going back to the breeder on this one?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Leash frustration can easily appear as human aggression. That is created and caused by the owner / handler.
> 
> Suspicion in a pup can be often be seen in a pup a few weeks old and it not considered abnormal in this breed. Remember, the standard says to guard and protect, suspicion and aggression comes with the territory.
> 
> ...


The bolded is total horse manure. Before the eyes open, we are talking 10 days old. At ten days old a puppy is a drinking/pooping machine. They do not growl at their owners. I would seriously consider the credentials of any breeder who touted their puppies for this.

ATTACK of the killer baby-puppies!!! Must be the sequel to Attack of the killer bunny rabbits -- I actually watched that movie.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> The bolded is total horse manure. Before the eyes open, we are talking 10 days old. At ten days old a puppy is a drinking/pooping machine. They do not growl at their owners. I would seriously consider the credentials of any breeder who touted their puppies for this.


I would be less likely to question the credentials of an experienced working line breeder over that of somebody who is not familiar with them.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> I have never had a dog that has had aggression toward people since four months old, that it explodes if someone starts to approach, that requires tons of management and has been to several trainers. That isn't normal. And a dog that hasn't calmed down in 4 years? But as I have said, I haven't evaluated the dog. The owner has lived with the dog and is considering euthanasia. My guess is that the dog is beyond normal management/training/leadership. My guess is that he is stressing his owner out, seriously.


But it IS possible that the 4 month old was just a regular land shark and it was mistakenly thought of as aggressive.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

selzer said:


> Yes, people do misread puppies. Usually serious human aggression is not an issue. Not that young. Has anyone suggested going back to the breeder on this one?


I believe I did


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

This happens every time someone comes on here with this question. Often, they are generally only asking because they want to hear it is OK to do what they have already decided to do.

Then everyone starts disagreeing on criteria, and the OP generally never comes back. They last looked at the forum 3 days ago. It was a weekend though.

You can't possibly read a post and know what the OP is leaving out, if they really even know what aggression means as opposed to bratiness, landsharking.

When I had issues, and I did ultimately have to PTS, I didn't come here to ask opinions first. Not because I don't value the experienced people's opinions here, but because I did not expect anyone who was qualified to say anything to give an answer. Someone qualified to give an answer knows darn well they need to know the dog and the owner to do so. 

In my situation, breed specific trainers, vets, and even a K9 handler from DHS told me what I already knew, and commended me for trying. OP- if you come back, that is the only right way to go. Listen to the trainers and vets.

If anyone does come across a dog that would make a good aggressive working dog for an experienced handler, but is simply just way too much for a casual inexperienced owner- check out Throw Away Dogs on FB. They specialize in rescuing people who bought a Ferrari when they can't even drive a stick shift. The dogs, if they pass, are donated to police departments that can not afford a working K9. They evaluated my dog (like I said I tried everything) and said to (as Jax08 so correctly put it) "release him from his demons."


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

The OP hasn't been back since the original post. Several posts in the beginning of this thread ask some pointed back round questions and some good recommendations were given with no response from the OP. I don't think we will know what will or has happened with this dog. The OP seems to have run away. 

This is typical of how these types of threads seem to go.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

CometDog said:


> This happens every time someone comes on here with this question. Often, they are generally only asking because they want to hear it is OK to do what they have already decided to do.
> 
> Then everyone starts disagreeing on criteria, and the OP generally never comes back. They last looked at the forum 3 days ago. It was a weekend though.
> 
> ...


Agree 100%!

The one thing some of us fail to recognize is the bond. GSD's are notorious for struggling with rehoming, for a dog that already has issues this could be a catastrophe. I always said if anything ever happened that forced me to give up the dogs I would have them PTS. Ultimately it is sometimes the kindest decision.
It is also a deeply personal and private choice. 
When I had Bear put down I was sure that I could have found him a junk yard to watch over, but I was also crystal clear that somewhere in this dogs future was a bullet. I could not bring myself to let that happen and the option for him was to lock up an 18 month old pup and throw away the key. I weighed the quality of life he would have and what it would do to me and made the best decision I could. He had already mauled someone (thank God wearing a skidoo suit), gone after a child and attacked several dogs. Ropes were a joke and I lacked the size and strength to hold him. I would have been haunted for the rest of his life had I turned him over to someone else. We all know the horror that awaits these dogs in the wrong hands, and people lie all the time.
Whatever the outcome here, I wish the OP and the dog peace.


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## slippednfell (Jun 24, 2011)

Banner614 said:


> I have a 4 year old GSD that has had aggression towards people since four months old and severe dog aggression since a year or so. I have been to several trainers but he still requires a ton of management to keep him from going after a person or dog. I am now considering euthanizing him due to the stress of managing him. I guess i just feel like i am doing it out of selfish reasons as i for the most part can keep him from hurting someone it is just very stressful and i worry that if i slip up someone gets hurt. I have to work to avoid strangers and dogs when we are out. If they ignore him he'll ignore them but if a dog or person looks like they plan to approach us he explodes and no amount of corrections or desensitization has gotten rid of this behavior. I feel like we've finally hit a wall and this is just as good as he is capable of behaving with his weak nerves. He is also not able to be loose in the house due to my fear that he will bite someone as he will charge the door and bark/growl whenever someone enters even if he knows them and he is often confined to a room or his crate.
> 
> At what point is it acceptable to euthanize an aggressive dog that is otherwise physically healthy? He doesn't have a bite record but that is almost solely due to management.


IMHO, I wouldn't want to wait until someone has actually been bitten, especially a young, unsuspecting child; however, if I was in your situation (based only on what you have shared), I would muzzle the dog at all times, except at meal time, and find a trainer/expert on aggressive dogs and work with them to teach your dog to have more restraint with new people/animals.

I notice in your photos of the dog, he is wearing a K9 "vest"... was he being trained at any point to be aggressive or "K9 like"?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

CometDog said:


> If anyone does come across a dog that would make a good aggressive working dog for an experienced handler, but is simply just way too much for a casual inexperienced owner- check out Throw Away Dogs on FB. They specialize in rescuing people who bought a Ferrari when they can't even drive a stick shift. The dogs, if they pass, are donated to police departments that can not afford a working K9. They evaluated my dog (like I said I tried everything) and said to (as Jax08 so correctly put it) "release him from his demons."


Nice constructive option!


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## gregus73 (Jan 4, 2018)

I would seek a trainer.

My 5 1/2 month old GSD sees a professional training every week for 2-3 hours that specializes with Pit Bulls, Rots and GSDs.
He is sweet as can be around me, but barks at people he does not know.

I had an aggressive Terrier breed that would try to bite people. I would always have to ask people to not pet him.
The point that I am making is that he lived a good life, never actually bit anyone and made it to over 15.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would be less likely to question the credentials of an experienced working line breeder over that of somebody who is not familiar with them.


German Shepherds are German Shepherds. They all go back to the same dogs. And I have seen more 10 day old puppies than you have, or your buddy Cloudbump, probably put together. I notice none of the working line breeders that are on this site are talking about how their puppies growl at their owners before their eyes open. Whatever, I have a puppy to feed. You have fun believing that 4 month old puppies should go berzerk when a human approaches, and that 10 day old puppies growl at their owners. This dog is 4 years old now, and its owner knows best whether the dog needs to be put down or not. They probably know they are over their head and are hoping someone will come out and offer to take the dog off their hands. Since that didn't happen, my guess is that whatever we say about it here, the decision is probably already made, maybe already done.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nigel said:


> I agree. There's also a human at the other end of the leash that is part of the equation, what kind of handling has this dog had?


This is soooo important before making a decision. Do you know how many times a person has brought a dog to me that was dog aggressive or dog vicious ( for the inexperienced or drama folks), and they are basing this on the behavior of the dog when ON leash and passing or approaching another dog??? Dog wasn’t aggressive at all, but was mishandled and when owners educated, they saw completely different results. But to these people the dog was really dog aggressive, ( and to many on the internet that have limited experiences with this situation). Maybe this dog is dog aggressive, maybe it isn’t, but before you euthanize the dog have it evaluated by working dog trainers and not pet trainers...they can look at the same traits and come to far different conclusions. The dog deserves that opportunity!


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

These threads always end this way... a contest between members here...".I know more than you know-I know more than you....Sing it with me now"
The OP here... or an op in any one of the many threads here involving euthanizing-- their aggressive dog--their dog they can't handle--their dog who may bite--their dog that's causing them stress---They've already made their minds up--It's a done deal folks. OPs like this one are simply looking for support/validation for THEMSELVES....and they'll get that support here....which side of the fence an individual member falls on in a particular thread varies (as others said depending on date and how the wind is blowing)....the OP then just disappears--never to be heard from again.

There are members here who say they can relate because they've been there before...well folks-- taking on a adult shelter/rescue dog... where you don't know squat about it's history/background... is NOT the same as an OP having a 4 year old aggressive dog that's too stressful for them...a dog which they've owned since a puppy and been a member on this forum... I'm sure this "Monster" just happened over night....this was the 3rd thread the op started .....No behavioral questions during those 4 years ???.....Really???

I've sat and held dogs...and watched while a needle goes in their leg-- watched while the light slowly goes out of the eyes that trusted me all their lives....BUT only when time/old age or disease had caught up with us....so it's sacred subject for me--just to be clear here I've owned 2 dogs that the "experts " thought would be better off put to sleep at some point in their lives....It didn't happen....Why didn't it happen ???----Because I managed the dogs and their situations every day.....either dog would die for me in the right situation and not blink an eye!!.. and I was not about to give them any less than they'd give me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> German Shepherds are German Shepherds. They all go back to the same dogs. And I have seen more 10 day old puppies than you have, or your buddy Cloudbump, probably put together. I notice none of the working line breeders that are on this site are talking about how their puppies growl at their owners before their eyes open. Whatever, I have a puppy to feed. You have fun believing that 4 month old puppies should go berzerk when a human approaches, and that 10 day old puppies growl at their owners. This dog is 4 years old now, and its owner knows best whether the dog needs to be put down or not. They probably know they are over their head and are hoping someone will come out and offer to take the dog off their hands. Since that didn't happen, my guess is that whatever we say about it here, the decision is probably already made, maybe already done.


*Reputable* breeders know there are variations between lines and between pups in a litter. There is a good reason that a breeder should pick a pup to match to an individual. A German Shepherd is *not* just a German Shepherd. Some in a litter may be suitable for police work, some for sport, some for therapy dogs, and more. A *good* breeder knows that not all GSDs are cut from the same cloth.

You have bred working line German Shepherds and have had many in your hands? We should chat working dogs some day! I would love to hear your personal experiences with your working line GSDs. Having owned pet lines and even show lines in addition to my working lines, I know there can be a massive difference between the lines.

I don't have 4 month old puppies that go berserk when somebody approaches them although I have seen some leash reactivity in other peoples dogs. Is "early berserk" what your dogs produce? 

You think this dog's owners know best whether to kill off their dog or not because they might be in over their head? If not anything else, with all the threads started on here about people wanting to kill off their dogs because they are in over their heads, please tell why are you always a forerunner in the lynch mob crying the dog is not wired right, off with its head?

Last but not least, this is not about you, your experience, or your lack thereof, nor is this about a me or Cloud. How about contributing something constructive instead of personal attacks before this dog gets killed through no fault of its own?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

selzer said:


> German Shepherds are German Shepherds. They all go back to the same dogs. And I have seen more 10 day old puppies than you have, or your buddy Cloudbump, probably put together. I notice none of the working line breeders that are on this site are talking about how their puppies growl at their owners before their eyes open. Whatever, I have a puppy to feed. You have fun believing that 4 month old puppies should go berzerk when a human approaches, and that 10 day old puppies growl at their owners. This dog is 4 years old now, and its owner knows best whether the dog needs to be put down or not. They probably know they are over their head and are hoping someone will come out and offer to take the dog off their hands. Since that didn't happen, my guess is that whatever we say about it here, the decision is probably already made, maybe already done.


I dont know why everything has to turn into a personal attack?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

OP, I think you have gotten some good advice on this thread. I’m sorry for your situation and wish you well with whatever decision you make.

As for the thread, I’m closing it as it has devolved into bickering.


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