# from down to sit?



## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

my dog knows the sit pretty will i can tell her to sit no hand gestures or lures she will sit but if shes in a down and i say sit she will look at me funny? 

she will go from sit or stand to down she wil go from stand to sit but NOT down to sit? 

Anyone have any ideas why? and how it can be changed and if it is worth it?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Because dogs don't understand the exercise as positions, they understand it like movement. When you say "Sit" from a stand, your dog thinks you want him to put his butt on the floor, if you say "Sit" and the dog is in a down, he thinks you are nuts, because his butt his _already_ on the floor, along with his belly and his elbows.

You have to teach the "sit" from the "down" like a different exercise with the same name. They think we are dumb, but forgive us.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I use a different word for sitting from a down. I find it easiest that way. I use "up" for moving into a sit from a down. Teach the movement from scratch like Catu said, even if you're still using the word sit. I use a food lure to bring the dog back up into a sit.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Actually I have taught my dog to move interchangably from sit to down to stand and vice versa. I.E from any position to any other position should be obtainable as I think the dog actually does know the difference of one to another.

What is funny is to tell him to "Twirl" when he is in a down. He will actually stand, do a twirl and then down again. Course he also gives me a look like 

One thing that seemed to help is also using handsignals along with a verbal.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ok thanks 


so before i start training her the vice versa no risk of her getting confused then? ill just use a signal or lure to bring her from a down to a sit or a stand and teach the vice versa like cod but i will call them the samething as long as she wont get the originals confused took month of daily practice for her to understand them with no body movement or gestures.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Go back to using the lure. Even if she fully knows the word "sit" when she's standing, as Catu said - to the dog it's not the same thing. Give the sit command when she's in a down, wait a couple of seconds, then lure her up into a sit - mark and reward. Rinse, repeat. Don't do them at the same time or she'll pay attention to what you're doing and tune out what you're saying - you want her to associate the word with the lure/hand signal. Start waiting longer and longer (gradually) before using the lure (or a hand signal - get the food out of that hand as early as you can, doing the lure motion with an empty hand and reward from the other hand) as a reminder.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I can't see why the dog would get confused - once he knows what a "Sit" is, what difference would it make if he is standing or down when you give him the command. Or vice versa, of course. The only caveat I would say is to make sure that your dog knows what a sit is before you expect him to assume that position no matter what he is doing at the time of the command.

After all, what position was your dog in when you taught him the "Down" for the first time. Was he standing or sitting? Did it matter? No! When you say "Down" he should jump into the Down regardless of what he was doing. That is all we are teaching him.

I.E. we also want the dog to Down while he is walking (Heeling?) don't we. 

You want the dog to assume a Sit whether he is walking, standing or even in a Down. Not very difficult to teach this level of obedience - esp. if you start in a location with no distractions, as we should anyway.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> I can't see why the dog would get confused - *once he knows what a "Sit" is*, what difference would it make if he is standing or down when you give him the command. Or vice versa, of course.


Well, the easy answer is that he doesn't really know what "sit" is yet. Just because the dog has learned a command in one specific context doesn't mean he understands it in all contexts. Changing the picture, even just a little (sit in front of me toe to toe, vs sit at my side in heel position, vs sit across the room from me, or when we're in the car, or I'm sitting on the couch or laying in bed or standing on a chair, or at the vet's office or the park, and yes - whether or not the dog is standing or laying down at the time.....) makes it completely different for the dog, even though WE know it's the same thing. Commands need to be generalized, and in this case, that obviously hasn't happened yet. 

No, it's not that difficult to teach, and yes we should definitely do that, but we can never assume that a dog fully understands a command until it's been generalized to a variety of different situations and circumstances.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Actually yes, it does matter when you're teaching the down as well. If you only ask for a down from a sit, the dog won't understand how to down from a stand. 

Dogs and other animals are specialists, humans are generalists. This is how we learn. To a child, as they're growing and learning they put things into broad categories. A toddler learning that a bunny is white and fluffy, will call all white and fluffy things bunny until they learn otherwise. 

Dogs are the opposite. They do not have the ability to automatically generalize. This is why you have to change up training frequently. Teach them in new places, under new circumstances. If you only ever ask your dog to sit at home, they may not know what you want when you ask them to sit outside of the home. Over time with experience they can begin to generalize. Teach a dog to sit at home, at the pet store, at the park, at a friends house, and they'll know how to sit someplace they've never been.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

When I started taking Halo to classes as a puppy, each day I would work with her in a different room in the house. We started mat training one day in the family room, the next day we practiced in the kitchen, then the bedroom, the living room, the dining room, the entry. I did that with everything - each weeks homework was practiced all over the house. And when I started taking her out in public to train, I'd pick a busy street corner one day, we'd stand next to the driveway into a gas station, we'd go to a different strip mall, we'd work outside the supermarket and the bowling alley.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Well, the easy answer is that he doesn't really know what "sit" is yet. Just because the dog has learned a command in one specific context doesn't mean he understands it in all contexts. Changing the picture, even just a little (sit in front of me toe to toe, vs sit at my side in heel position, vs sit across the room from me, or when we're in the car, or I'm sitting on the couch or laying in bed or standing on a chair, or at the vet's office or the park, and yes - *whether or not the dog is standing or laying down at the time*.....) makes it completely different for the dog, even though WE know it's the same thing. Commands need to be generalized, and in this case, that obviously hasn't happened yet.
> 
> No, it's not that difficult to teach, and yes we should definitely do that, but we can never assume that a dog fully understands a command until it's been generalized to a variety of different situations and circumstances.


Well naturally, we need to expect that our dog knows what "Sit" means in some environment before we give him the command in a different situation and expect him to know what to do.

I thought that the OP was asking about teaching the dog to go to a Sit from other positions, not talking about doing a sit in different environments.

When you teach a Down, for example, do you really think it makes a difference whether they start in a Sit or a Stand? might be easier to teach if from a Sit only because the dog is closer to the ground but don't you think that the dog can easily learn to do the Down from either beginning position. And the same with a Stand from a down and from a sit. never been a problem with any of my dogs.

A whole different situation in getting a dog to do any of these commands under a lot of distractions. Different problem, and of course a necessary thing to consider.

BTW, how quickly a dog generalizes a command has a lot to do with how intelligent the dog is and how aware they are of their environment and I would assume what type of relationship they might have with the owner.

If we take the "generalization" concept too far, we might even think that a dog would have to be totally retrained from scratch every time we wanted the dog to obey a different handler. Not too many environments would equal the differences in commands given by a different handler.

If as you say a different environment makes it completely different, than either I am a GREAT trainer (not very likely!) or else I have really genius dogs as i have never had a problem teaching my dogs to obey the basic commands from whatever position they are in.

Same with a "Wait" command - use this one in a very generic sense- I don't care what he is doing or what position or what environment he is in - when I give this command I expect him to just stop what he is doing and pause until I give him either another command (i.e. Sit) or more usually a release (OK). Does work for me and i would expect it should work for anybody and any dog (unless one of my suppositions - great trainer or genious dog might be true!!!).


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

As usual you've missed the point, or maybe you haven't and is just your desire to argue. 

Using sit in different situations was an analogy. Because sit in differen situations is something that is new to the dog, just as a sit from a down is new to the dog. It has not been generalized yet. So the dog needs to be shown whats expected. 

Yes, dogs also frequently have problems with new handlers. As you are not a new member, I'm sure you've read over and over things about strangers telling peoples dogs to sit in petstores and being ignored. Or discussions about switching handlers in obedience class and the dog not obeying. As with everything else, the dog will not automatically generalize. So if one handler is the only one that ever gives the dog commands, the dog will not listen. However if enough people give the dog commands they will begin to generalize this over to additional new people. 

Most likely you did train your dogs to respond in a variety of environments during training. Most people do automatically, its more unusual to have the person who only trains in a single spot and does commands in a single order and then doesn't understand why the dog won't obey outside this regimen.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> As usual *you've missed the point,* or maybe you haven't and is *just your desire to argue*.
> _*What is it that you are doing here? *_
> _*By the way I wasn't "arguing" with anyone just expressing my own opions and experience with my own dogs. Obviously not all dogs will learn at the same pace and some (maybe yours?) might need more training in a lot of different locations. To each their own.*_
> Using sit in different situations was an analogy. Because sit in differen situations is something that is new to the dog, just as a sit from a down is new to the dog. It has not been generalized yet. So the dog needs to be shown whats expected.
> ...


lin, 
Once again, I must thank you for straightening me out. 

But i must ask you one question - you talk about "Generalization" as if you really know what it means. Given that you do, perhaps you could explain it in terms that really define it, how to measure it, and use it as a practical aid to training. For example, do we have to train a dog in every location that we expect him to obey. In the living room, in the kitchen, in the backyard, in the front yard, in the obedience club building, at each obedience show location that we may enter, at each location that we may take our dog - different stores, different friends houses, etc. etc. That is, everywhere that we want or need our dog to obey the commands?

Now that sounds kind of ridiculous when I take it that far, so what I would like to know is how much do the dogs need to train in different places or with different handlers or maybe in day and night in the same location?

And how would we know when the dog is "Not generalizing" a command when he just doesn't do what we told him, as opposed to not doing the command simply because the dog is distracted by something else in the environment?

Thanks for your help and comments (esp. about my motives).


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

If you're unable to understand what I've written, I don't think expanding on it would do any good. The answers to your questions are in my previous posts.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

i wonder if there was like a good pattern in which proper order to teach things


we taught

sit down stand 

then 

stay for all 3 


then 

doing each command while heeling for all 3 


now my dog just learn to down while she far away walking or even jogging off leash i love it, I just yell down and she will go down quick clicker training did this just after 2 days out outdoors practicing she got it no corrections only positive she loves it, because anytime she goes down she gets a treat she has no idea what kind of treat it will be which makes her wanna do it more lol we have hiking trails near by where i can practice a lot going through paths in huge fields.

i wonder if i should teach the sit while in motion or the sit far away before i attempt to teach the sit from a down? I havent attempted to teach the sit in this manner the way i have done the down?

thanks for your feedback


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

It doesn't really matter the order unless it's behaviors/movements that build on each other. Thoug with generalizing, the more sit work you do the faster the dog will learn sit is a position and not a movement. Do you work on heeling? It's kind of like that, heel is a position. So saying heel to the dog should make them move into position at your left side and stay there.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if a dog can reason like this then he should
be able to follow a command from any position.
i also don't see where it matters what word you
use to go from down to sit. 



Catu said:


> Because dogs don't understand the exercise as positions, they understand it like movement. When you say "Sit" from a stand, your dog thinks you want him to put his butt on the floor, if you say "Sit" and the dog is in a down, he thinks you are nuts, because his butt his _already_ on the floor, along with his belly and his elbows.
> 
> You have to teach the "sit" from the "down" like a different exercise with the same name. They think we are dumb, but forgive us.


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## gypsyrose (Nov 22, 2010)

pets4life said:


> my dog knows the sit pretty will i can tell her to sit no hand gestures or lures she will sit but if shes in a down and i say sit she will look at me funny?
> 
> she will go from sit or stand to down she wil go from stand to sit but NOT down to sit?
> 
> Anyone have any ideas why? and how it can be changed and if it is worth it?


:wild:Gypsy does the sit to down and down to sit and stand she does ok. but now for the funny ; she flops down when i try to put her out and gets real limber no amount of pushing , pulling or yelling will get to move. My wife was at her wits end trying to get to go out side. I give the stand command and Gypsy stands i put the leash around her neck not on just draped over her neck and out she go's... I miss my puppy but i love the dog she has become.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

Jax can do a sit from any position, I always thought he was just confused and needs clarification on what's what... Until I read this thread, now _I'm_ confused. 
In the beginning, when he was in a 'down' I would take a step toward him which forced him to sit up. After working on solidifying all of his commands, he can do any of them in any order.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Well naturally, we need to expect that our dog knows what "Sit" means in some environment before we give him the command in a different situation and expect him to know what to do.
> 
> I thought that the OP was asking about teaching the dog to go to a Sit from other positions, not talking about doing a sit in different environments.


We are - but to the dog, sitting from other positions besides the stand is just as different as learning to sit from a stand in different environments, maybe even more so. As Catu already explained, to us sit is a position - butt on floor, no matter what position the dog was in prior to that. But dogs don't generalize that to moving (up) from a down to a sit, we have to teach them that it's the same thing as sitting from a stand.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> For example, do we have to train a dog in every location that we expect him to obey. In the living room, in the kitchen, in the backyard, in the front yard, in the obedience club building, at each obedience show location that we may enter, at each location that we may take our dog - different stores, different friends houses, etc. etc. That is, everywhere that we want or need our dog to obey the commands?
> 
> Now that sounds kind of ridiculous when I take it that far, so what I would like to know is how much do the dogs need to train in different places or with different handlers or maybe in day and night in the same location?


Depends on the dog. Some dogs will pick it up and start to generalize quickly, others might take longer. And also the earlier you start generalizing your commands, the faster a dog will get it too.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

gypsyrose said:


> :wild:Gypsy does the sit to down and down to sit and stand she does ok. but now for the funny ; she flops down when i try to put her out and gets real limber no amount of pushing , pulling or yelling will get to move. My wife was at her wits end trying to get to go out side. I give the stand command and Gypsy stands i put the leash around her neck not on just draped over her neck and out she go's... I miss my puppy but i love the dog she has become.


That sounds hilarius, (as long as it wasn't my dog!!!!!!!!) and must have been cute to watch her!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> If you're unable to understand what I've written, I don't think expanding on it would do any good. The answers to your questions are in my previous posts.


Thanks - kind of what I expected. 

Good that people are much better at generalization than dogs, huh?

Many people talk a lot about how dogs are poor at generalizing training but are also unable to explain it clearly enough for us not so discerning would be trainers to understand it.

Great concept but very hard to put into actual practice for some (me!).

lin - could you even try to answer one simple question as an example of what you were castigating me over above?

If I am just starting to train my dog the command "Stand" - how many different places/environments would I have to train it in before you would consider that he has "Generalized" the command? Assume that he is an average GSD, just as an example.

BTW, if you can't really answer this question (and I could see where you might not be able to) then I would assume that this is a really hard concept to actually put into anyone's actual training - would you agree?

Thanks for your effort and I hope that your answer will be useful to the beginner dog trainers who are trying to figure out how (and where!) to train their dogs to obey all of the common commands no matter where they may be physically located. So we really would like to have the opinion of an expert on how many and what locations that we need to do so in before we can consider them to be trained and generalized.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

My dogs seemed to learn very quickly the gesture where I stand straight and put both fists to my chest (as if I have a treat). They sit no matter what position they are in.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Smart dogs! Sounds reasonable to me.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Codmaster, maybe this will help:

http://petlvr.com/blog/2009/02/02/behavior-generalization-or-why-wont-my-dog-sit-at-the-park/

http://www.bingodogtraining.com/Generalization.htm

http://www.kinetic-canine.com/254/how-dogs-learn/


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Codmaster, maybe this will help:
> 
> http://petlvr.com/blog/2009/02/02/behavior-generalization-or-why-wont-my-dog-sit-at-the-park/
> 
> ...


Thanks! very helpful.

The first one does set a low target:

*" If your dog does what you ask 80% of the time give yourself a pat on the back then smooch that pooch" *
It does make me feel better about my dog and his level of obeying.

I did notice that she also did not give much guidance about how many different places that it takes for an average dog to complete the "Generalization" of a command. 

And she seemed to make it a lot less that I would have thought - even to the point of discussing about where exactly where we stand when giving a command when teaching it.

Interesting article - thanks again!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Lin said:


> Most likely you did train your dogs to respond in a variety of environments during training. Most people do automatically, its more unusual to have the person who only trains in a single spot and does commands in a single order and then doesn't understand why the dog won't obey outside this regimen.


I agree, people who are more experienced and have been training for a long time are more likely to just do this, even if they don't examine the reasons why. A newer less experienced trainer who doesn't understand the way dogs learn is more likely to make the mistake of not varying training enough because they don't realize that dogs are contextual learners.

By the time Halo came along I had made many mistakes with previous dogs that I vowed to correct or avoid in her training, and generalizing was something I put a huge amount of effort into.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Codmaster, maybe this will help:
> 
> http://petlvr.com/blog/2009/02/02/behavior-generalization-or-why-wont-my-dog-sit-at-the-park/
> 
> ...


Whoops my previous post should have said Second article. Just read the first one - very helpful as well. 

It appears that I am confused about generalization and distractions as some of this first article talks about doinfg a command in the back yard and then doing it at the store and the dog not doing it well at the store due to strange people around etc. I always considered those distractions, not a case of the dog not knowing the command in a different environment.

Same result and solution it sounds like, just a different theory maybe.

Anyway thanks again for the references - they were great!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

start with dog on lead , stand in front , from a sit ask for a down with hand sweeping downward , dog will follow motion, reward with weeny bit of dried liver , verbal praise at same time so that they become interchangeable. To get dog to sit , get attention , eye contact , use hand signal (chopping upward motion) at same time take a step forward in to dog (crowding) so that the dog will move up to sit to give you room , dog now in perfect position to give reward as it's nose should be in a perfect front finish position.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> I did notice that she also did not give much guidance about how many different places that it takes for an average dog to complete the "Generalization" of a command.
> 
> And she seemed to make it a lot less that I would have thought - even to the point of discussing about where exactly where we stand when giving a command when teaching it.


I don't think there IS an "average" dog when it comes to training. The intelligence of the dog is a factor, how much previous training they've had (having learned to generalize one command will make it easier for them to generalize successive commands), and the skill of the trainer would be a factor as well.

From the 3rd article: 




> *Dogs don’t generalize well.* This means that when they learn something new in one place, with one person, in one position, they have to learn it all over when they move to a different place, or perform it for a different person, or perform it for someone in a different position. This is most often the reason behind “He does it at home! He _knows_ this, I promise!” The good news is that dogs can learn to generalize. *Each time we work a behavior in a different place with different distractions, the dog will get better at it and take less time to learn new behaviors in those places*.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

carmspack said:


> To get dog to sit , get attention , eye contact , use hand signal (chopping upward motion) *at same time take a step forward in to dog (crowding) so that the dog will move up to sit to give you room ,* dog now in perfect position to give reward as it's nose should be in a perfect front finish position.


This is how I was taught to do it and it works great. For Harley there were no treats, the trainer didn't believe in them...we used them for Annie. It worked both ways. Fast and simple to do. 

The command I had the hardest time with was _stand._. Both dogs wanted to walk forward a few steps..sometimes they still do. :headbang:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I did not use treats either -- but it does work well 

stand is just as easy , should be the easiest of all because when you are teaching the "heel" , then "sit when stopped" the dog's natural inclination is to stand , and we put effort in to having the dog sit .

so at a heel , slow down , brush left hand from shoulder to rear and say stand at same time . You can catch him from sitting by pausing your hand, just at his thigh , preventing him from sitting . Praise.

the hand signal , when leaving dog at stand will be the same motion , hand moving from shoulder to rear , front of dogs head nose to ear (range of vision) .

be calm , then you can walk aroud the dog , start by going counter clockwise so that you are blocking forward movement 

Campagne required "positions" sit down stand , given at a distance, random order given by judge -- so could be a down to stand , or stand to down , etc .

jumble it up so dog knows what it is you are asking , have fun , do it to some lively music , up down , about turn , forward , sit etc. MOVEMENT is very happy making for dogs . 


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Smart dogs! Sounds reasonable to me.


Your dog(s) may already know it but if they don't please do me the favor of trying it without saying SIT. Stand straight, feet together (or close) and one hand covering fist on your breastbone. My dogs learned it so fast I am wondering if it is a universal gesture. (probably not)


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster, the reason I didn't answer was because I had ALREADY answered. You asked questions that I had addressed in my previous posts. And if you can't understand them, then my repeating the answer will not do any good. If you'd like to learn more about the way dogs think, I highly recommend books by Patricia McConnell and Temple Grandin. Dogs are specialists, humans are generalists. Its just that these paths were the most influential evolutionarily. Its not that one is better than the other overall, dogs and humans are vastly different creatures. 

A good book to start with on the concept of generalizing in animal training is Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i told my dog to sit and he did. i
told him down and he did. i told him sit
and he did. someone told me to tell
the dog to sit while facing me and then
turn my back to him and proceed to give him commands.
so my dog was sitting behind me and i said sit, he did.
i said down and he did. i said sit and he did. no hand signals
were given during this test.
i didn't think about saying heel. i'll try that later.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

doggiedad said:


> i told my dog to sit and he did. i
> told him down and he did. i told him sit
> and he did. someone told me to tell
> the dog to sit while facing me and then
> ...


Sounds good to me! As I would expect a normal dog to act when given a familiar command.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lin those are very good books
Carmen


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> codmaster, the reason I didn't answer was because I had ALREADY answered. You asked questions that I had addressed in my previous posts. *And if you can't understand them, then my repeating the answer will not do any good.* If you'd like to learn more about the way dogs think, I highly recommend books by Patricia McConnell and Temple Grandin. Dogs are specialists, humans are generalists. Its just that these paths were the most influential evolutionarily. Its not that one is better than the other overall, dogs and humans are vastly different creatures. A good book to start with on the concept of generalizing in animal training is Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin.


lin, I guess that you must be right about me not understanding what you are trying to say. I guess i could just not get your, probably very clear to most people, explanation between "Generalization" and my obviously old fashioned understanding of simply training with many different distractions so the dog will respond properly with many different things going on in different places. 

Sorry to doubt you - I was just looking for a clear definition of how much "generalization" training one would need to ensure a reliable dog and thought that you should be able to provide some hard numbers explaining this. 

And I was also hoping that you could provide a clear simple differentiation between the concepts that I must have confused - "Generalization" and "Distraction Training"; but since you were unable to (if I just missed these things in any one of your many previous posts, please forgive me (and if you could, please point me to the specific posts in which you did so and I missed it). That would be a big help.

I recognized (I think) one of the authors you referenced in your post, and it does help explain your posts. That would be Patricia McConnell. 

Have a nice day.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Forgot to add - enough already with the discussion.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Wow, I refuse to argue with you so you try to argue with me about not being interested in arguing :rofl:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> Wow, I refuse to argue with you so you try to argue with me about not being interested in arguing :rofl:


Ha!Ha! You have made my day, thank you.

Nice straw man approach!

Please don't respond - let our "conversation" die!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Now why would I want to do that? Its fun watching your attempts at baiting opcorn:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> Now why would I want to do that? Its fun watching your attempts at baiting opcorn:


And the purpose of this thread is?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Is this a contest to see who gets the last word? Maybe if everyone agrees to stop bickering for the sake of bickering the thread can get back on topic.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

great line. i'm adding it to my arsenal of rebuttals. :laugh:



Lin said:


> Wow, I refuse to argue with you so you try to argue with me about not being interested in arguing :rofl:


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Is this a contest to see who gets the last word? Maybe if everyone agrees to stop bickering for the sake of bickering the thread can get back on topic.


I tried, but that would truly work for me! Thank you!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> ... once he knows what a "Sit" is, what difference would it make if he is standing or down when you give him the command. Or vice versa, of course.


For me there is a difference between how my dogs goes into a Down from a Stand and how they do it from a Sit.

From a Stand I train my dogs to do what is called a Sphynx Down. Their front feet never move and their whole body sort of racks back into the down position. Kinda hard for me to describe.

When the dog is in a Sit position they HAVE to move their front feet in order to go into the Down.

I'll see if I can video Mauser doing his different downs and post it tonight.


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