# screw petsmart!!!



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Good thing I don't remember the last time I bought anything there. Flash and I were there working on obedience with distraction. He **** well knows what sit and platz means, no excuse for him to not do them. He was a little too into another dog when I told him platz so he ignored me. I corrected him with the fursaver and told him platz again. He ignored again, I corrected him harder. The whole time I'm very calm and matter of fact, I'm not losing my temper at all. About that time the manager comes running up with a very disturbed look on his face, "Ma'am, ma'am! You can't be choking your dog in this store, we are positive training only and I don't know what technique you are using but that just won't work here." I was floored. I pulled out the hot dog I was using as a reward, he had gotten way more hot dog than corrections up to that point, but apparently I was choking the life out of him and I'm an evil wench. I said wow and just walked off towards the door. I couldn't hold myself as I walked out and said a four letter word. Oh well. I wanted to tear into the guy. Petsmart workers are the last people I'd take dog advice from. 

My DH got a kick out of the story, though. I think anyone who has seen me with Flash will get a kick out of this story.







Now I'm just mad that we have to find somewhere else to do obedience around dogs.


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## GSDLover_Forever (Nov 5, 2006)

That's horrible. I'd like to see what methods PetSmart uses, and if they ACTUALLY work? 

OT, but is platz pronounced like "plotz"? Pronouncing the "ot" as you would in "hot"?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

oh... lovely ol petsmart. the place where i was "under investigation for cruelty to animals" because surely allowing a half gone baby hamster to be eaten alive by the mother was better than me...

a) removing a hampster from its mother to starve
b) placing a live animal in my pocket to suffocate
c) feeding the baby hamster to my dog (this one still has me confused







)

perhaps i should have put it in the freezer alive like the other employees did









needless to say i quite before they could fire me. what a thing for a teenage girl to have to deal with.

ah well.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am sorry, but I am glad they are on the lookylooky for someone that maybe mistreating their pooch...Not to say that you did whatsoever. I would have maybe been tee'd like you at the employee, but at least they didn't ignore the situation. And maybe your level of frustration was elevated as Flash didn't Platz when asked more than once, so your voice maybe sounded harsher than normal? 
Think of the volume of dogs that go thru the place with ignorant owners, the employees have to be on guard, IMO, and then they are de-sensitized because of this. Not that they need to voice their opinions every time, should just observe and then see what action to take if necessary.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I find it's always hard to have someone come down on you when you didn't realize what you were doing was against their policy. AKC shows also frown on compulsion training on the show grounds. Or at least it is against the rules - or was against the rules - (we haven't been out for a long time.)

You can still train at PetsMart - you just have to use their methods. Just remember compulsion training isn't positive training whether you are angry or calm when you apply it. If they want only positive methods used in their store, that is their choice.

GSD4ever - take a peak at Pat Miller's books and Sheila Booth's book. These are two positive trainers with pretty good track records. 


Jesusica - if you want to take a look at other ways to work your dog, I've been finding Susan Clothier (sp) "Bones would rain from the sky" a pretty interesting read.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDLover_ForeverThat's horrible. I'd like to see what methods PetSmart uses, and if they ACTUALLY work?



We went through obedience training in Petsmart, it was a success with Jesse and yes it is positive training there, due to training there with all the distractions Jesse is great out in public. Jesse learned very fast that if he did what I wanted he got rewarded by praise, toy or treat if he did wrong he got "ah ah" and put back in position he was to be in and praised once in it. He is now able to at 7 months to sit, down or stand in a spot, we can walk away down one isle out of site wait a minute and come back up another isle while trainer was waiting out of site keeping eye on Jesse and he was in the high traffic area outside groomer shop in main isle.

I personally have no complaints about their training, but in reality I could train Jesse myself I just wanted to use them for distraction and socialization reasons.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Sherush
> ... if he did wrong he got "ah ah" and put back in position he was to be in and praised once in it.


That is a correction. Different dogs need different levels of correction. You and I were doing the exact same thing except my dog needs more than an "ah ah". Cheyenne, just tell her "no". That's all the correction she needs.


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: jesusicaDifferent dogs need different levels of correction.


Yup you are right, if Jesse wasn't as good and easy to train and obedient I would have taken him to a more serious obedient school and worked even harder on him. Not every dog is the same, not every dog responds the same way to methods. Jesse temperament works very well with the Petsmart way of things ie no choke, halties or any kind of correction collars, just flat collar or normal harness.


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## elfwofle (Dec 22, 2007)

We do trainng at Petsmart....... only because our trainer works there. I have always never liked Petsmarts training methods with the "one training method fits all dogs" mentallity they tend to have. Then I had a bad experience at a Petsmart and I had "blacklisted" Petsmart from my places to go till I met out current trainer. We had both attended a dog function and I was badmouthing Petsmart, then she pipes up that she was a trainer for them! We butted heads for a few minutes, then I started asking her training questions to see what she would do, and found out she was not one of those "mindless" trainers, but modifies her training method to fit the dog. I do not use a clicker with my GSD, and the trainer has never trid to make me use one on her either. But with one of my other dogs, I have to and we just started class with that one. The only collars our trainer does not accept in her class is a pinch collar and rarely ever a choke chain (but we are allowed to use a martingale).


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:"Ma'am, ma'am! You can't be choking your dog in this store, we are positive training only and I don't know what technique you are using but that just won't work here."


Alrighty, since nobody else has asked this, I will ask:

Were you inside Petsmart as a customer, shopping with your dog and fitting in some training and socialization at the same time; or were you inside Petsmart as part of their training classes?

I think the two are two very, very different situations. 

If you are taking classes at Petsmart and they specific what equipment and what type of corrections (if any) you can use, then not following the class instructions would be a violation and a problem.

If, however, you are inside the store as a customer, someone who has no contract with them regarding training, then they need to mind their own business. Petsmart has a great big sign at the front that says "Leashed and vaccinated Pets welcome". It says nothing about what kind of collar you may have on your dog, or whether you can or cannot correct your dog for bad behavior inside the store. 

For the manager or an employee to come up to you and tell you you cannot correct your dog, that's like them coming up to a customer walking in with their dog and saying, "Ma'am, you can't bring your dog into the store on a prong collar because we do positive training only, and dogs must be on a flat collar, Martingale, or head halter." 

I have no problems if a store employee goes up to someone who is hitting or kicking their dog, or in another way obviously abusing them, and saying, "You can't do that here - either stop or leave." However, this wasn't a question of abuse. This was someone correcting the behavior. I highly doubt the OP was "choking" the dog - she was probably popping the collar and then releasing it.

Quite frankly, this was none of their business and I'm surprise the OP didn't tell the manager to get stuffed before she walked out of the store. I very likely would have, right after pointing out that if they did not want people to use training tools such as chokes and prong collars in the store, then they probably should not be selling them.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Selzer, How people behave on your property IS your business whether you are a corporation or an individual. PetsMart manager was very much OK in requesting that the OP stop using compulsion methods on her dog on PetsMart property. Whether she is shopping or participating in class or simply using the property for training around other dogs, her behavior is the store's business. So they were "minding their own business."


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## Phay1018 (Nov 4, 2006)

where has Selzer even posted on this thread? 

I have always taken my fosters to petsmart for meet and greets when I was with Brightstar and they all wore prong collars. They were all learning their manners (with people/other dogs) and I never hesitated to give them the proper correction if needed. No one has ever said a word to me and I can tell you if they did, I would kindly say oh so I should just let my dog eat that little ankle biter who is allowed to roam at the end of the flexi leash while the owners pay no attention to them or think it is funny cause they are so little? I guarentee it would be the Shepherd I was holding and myself at fault if the little dog were injured. JMHO. 

Same with my own dogs, they aren't aggressive, but all dogs can act out if put in the wrong situation and I think it's the responsible owners job to be on top of that over the idiotic ones that can be in those stores... A bit off topic but what if Flash was really acting out and maybe thinking about doing something he should't? So Jessica should just let him? I do understand petsmart's side of things being their property but they should have at least asked why she felt the need to have to correct him in such way and saw the whole picture? 

Just food for thought.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Sorry, that should have read Historian not Selzer. I must have been crosseyed...
If Flash were really acting out, PetsMart would be in the right to step in more forcefully and see that he and his handler left. 

If you have a dog that is in any way inclined to "eat" ankle biters, you should not be around ankle biters in a situation like PetsMart if the only correction you can use is a compulsion technique and that facility does not allow compulsion.

Are you not concerned about possibly getting banned from a facility?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A fur-saver has those huge links, right. It is harder to hurt a dog or control a dog with large links as opposed to small links. I am not saying you should get a chain with smaller links, just that a correction may need to appear worse than it actually is. 

PetsMart sells prong collars. A slight jerk with a prong collar may have provided the same level of correction without the choking-your-dog scene. 

I think the manager over-reacted, but I wasn't there. 

The managers need to be taught that different dogs need different levels of management, different dogs respond to different controls. And there is a big difference between a correction and abuse. 

If someone was pounding on their dog, there in the store you would want the manager to step in. And we would all agree to that. Another person may look at one of us that uses a prong collar, see us administer a correction, and want the manager to step in. At some point you have to define what is reasonable force. 

Oh, I like positive training methods too, and love to employ them in puppies. However, once a dog is trained, on occasion a correction or attention giver is required and to NOT adminster this at the proper time, THAT is abuse. I think that short of starving your dog to death, the absolute worse thing you can do to your dog is to be so permissive that your dog feels it has no boundaries at all. That dog's behavior problems will probably net him a death sentence down the road. 

I think PetsMarts shake the can in the dogs face method of correction, holding treats in one hand and a naughty can in the other is worse than using a choke chain or prong collar properly. But, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do. " I agree that you do not have to give up your location for training, (unless they asked you not to return), just improvise a bit. 

Instead of asking your dog to sit when he seems a bit too interested in another dog, give him an unannounced jerk and move away with him. The jerk will most likely not be noticed because you are not accompanying it with a displeased statement. It will not be repeated because you will then be out of range. The dog is smart, he will get the message.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

keep training your dog at PetSmart. it's a good place for training. there's so many dogs in and out of there. the manager just thought you were being heavy handed with your dog. he probably doesn't know anything about training. you should still train there and if you feel that strongly about it don't buy anything there. this way you have the convenience of training there but you're not supporting PetSmart.


> Originally Posted By: jesusicaGood thing I don't remember the last time I bought anything there. Flash and I were there working on obedience with distraction. He **** well knows what sit and platz means, no excuse for him to not do them. He was a little too into another dog when I told him platz so he ignored me. I corrected him with the fursaver and told him platz again. He ignored again, I corrected him harder. The whole time I'm very calm and matter of fact, I'm not losing my temper at all. About that time the manager comes running up with a very disturbed look on his face, "Ma'am, ma'am! You can't be choking your dog in this store, we are positive training only and I don't know what technique you are using but that just won't work here." I was floored. I pulled out the hot dog I was using as a reward, he had gotten way more hot dog than corrections up to that point, but apparently I was choking the life out of him and I'm an evil wench. I said wow and just walked off towards the door. I couldn't hold myself as I walked out and said a four letter word. Oh well. I wanted to tear into the guy. Petsmart workers are the last people I'd take dog advice from.
> 
> My DH got a kick out of the story, though. I think anyone who has seen me with Flash will get a kick out of this story.
> 
> ...


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

That's why I like e collars, the controllers in your pocket and the collar is discrete


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I would not take my dogs to PetSmart for training, and can buy most dog stuff cheaper at my Feed & Grain store.

However, as a rescue PetSmart has been helpful in helping us place dogs.

So as almost always, so negatives and some positives. 

PS Someone asked where Selzer has been; that person has been around forever.


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## GunnersMoms (Sep 14, 2004)

"Quite frankly, this was none of their business and I'm surprise the OP didn't tell the manager to get stuffed before she walked out of the store. I very likely would have, right after pointing out that if they did not want people to use training tools such as chokes and prong collars in the store, then they probably should not be selling them. "


Word. My sweetie would have told the manager where to go and how to get there. 

When we take our GSDs to the local Petsmart to visit, they always wear their prong collars. We also use an e-collar with Kenya sometimes. They've been corrected while in the store. We've never had an incident. Perhaps the manager didn't know other training methods?? 

If I were you, I'd keep going there and working my dog.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

The Petsmart in Mechanicsville has always been a good place for me to work with my dogs. Had them ask me about training.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you know i'm anti e-collar, prongs, not training. MaxGunnar, how are you???


> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarThat's why I like e collars, the controllers in your pocket and the collar is discrete


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

Except for the heat and the price of gas I'm doin pretty good


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereSelzer, How people behave on your property IS your business whether you are a corporation or an individual. PetsMart manager was very much OK in requesting that the OP stop using compulsion methods on her dog on PetsMart property. Whether she is shopping or participating in class or simply using the property for training around other dogs, her behavior is the store's business. So they were "minding their own business."


Oh I totally disagree with this. When will this stuff stop? 

I do not use "positive motivational training" whatever that encompasses, on my dogs. I simply train my dogs....after all these years I have no idea what style anyone would call it but it is my right to train them as *I* want to as long as I am not abusing them. Period.... no Petsmart manager is going to *correct* me for *correcting* my dog...or say even my child in their store...that is just over the line IMO... 

The behavior of this manager actually possibly put his store in danger of a lawsuit for embarrassing the customer in the manner she was approached if it was done in front of other customers.....

Personally I have no problem going to Petsmart or Petco for things...I know it is difficult for many of these younger people working there to realize that many people know a lot about their pets and many dog fanciers do frequent their stores...I just really wish some of them would get the hint when you *know* what you want and what you are looking for and I wish they would *stop* trying to sell you something totally different you do not want be it a collar, leash, shampoo or food...that makes me a little buggy. Please just direct me to what I asked about or help me find it but please do not insist I am wrong, "mean" or stupid because of my tool choice....

KWIM?

Cherri



Cherri


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

If you are on someone's property they can tell you how to act and that includes how you treat your dog, cat, elephant, child or spouse. If you don't like it you can leave. If you have a controlling interest in the company, you can change the policy...

If people do not agree on terms or cannot agree what another person means by a term, certain communication problems arrise. East is what you are saying is that you dislike people regarding collar corrections as a part of compulsion training. My interpretation is that perhaps you would just as soon those of us with an inclination toward substantially positive reinforcement quit talking about it. Of course I am of the mind that it would be finer if the compulsion folks would become converts. For now, we're probably just going to have to disagree.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

As far as law suits go - you can bring a civil suit on just about anything. Now you may not be able to get an attorney to represent you, you may get thrown out of court, you may antagonize a judge with frivolity and you may have to pay someone else's court costs as well as your own.

So far as I know, embarrassing someone isn't a crime so at least you cannot threaten the store manager with arrest!


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereIf you are on someone's property they can tell you how to act and that includes how you treat your dog, cat, elephant, child or spouse. If you don't like it you can leave. If you have a controlling interest in the company, you can change the policy...


BS Then they had better have a policy stated on the door saying exactly how you should train your dog. I have YEARS of customer service experience and dealing with "behavior" on company policy and a company can control certain things but not other and this is one of those "others." It is much more complicated than your above statement.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereAs far as law suits go - you can bring a civil suit on just about anything. Now you may not be able to get an attorney to represent you, you may get thrown out of court, you may antagonize a judge with frivolity and you may have to pay someone else's court costs as well as your own.
> 
> So far as I know, embarrassing someone isn't a crime so at least you cannot threaten the store manager with arrest!


Who said anything about a crime? It would be a civil suit and she would be more than allowed to file for it if a Petsmart manager ran up to her in a store full of people about her correcting her dog and caused her embarrassment....again, my experience in customer service knows better than that! You do NOT embarrass customers and in my book anyone for that matter it is simply rude and in a business situation totally verboten.

It is not a waste of a civil court's time to process a complaint of public embarrassment on a manager of a company, that is what they do, process civil claims.

Cherri


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: jesusicaHe was a little too into another dog when I told him platz so he ignored me. I corrected him with the fursaver and told him platz again. He ignored again, I corrected him harder. The whole time I'm very calm and matter of fact, I'm not losing my temper at all. About that time the manager comes running up with a very disturbed look on his face, "Ma'am, ma'am! You can't be choking your dog in this store, we are positive training only and I don't know what technique you are using but that just won't work here." I was floored.


Yeah, he didn't know what training tech she was using but knew it was against "store policy." Naaa sounds like a manager that is a little to into micro managing everything....worst thing to have at a Petsmart IMO as animals are very un-micro manageable lol

So a couple of pops on a fursaver is against Petsmart's policy?.....can someone find that cited for me on their site or in a store posting?

I don't think so....

Cherri


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Perhaps we all need to read the Delta Society's little book on what constitutes humane training. I have my copy loaned out r I would quote it but they do not have any issue with fursavers, slips or prongs provided they are humanely used.

Jesusica you were more polite than I would have been, and Middle while I generally agree with you most of the time, as long as Petsmart sells electric fences, bark collars, prongs or chokes they should shut the F--- up and mind there own business or put there money where their mouth is and discontinue selling those items. 

I go to Petco.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

Kathy I also prefer PetCo

Cherri


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere East is what you are saying is that you dislike people regarding collar corrections as a part of compulsion training. My interpretation is that perhaps you would just as soon those of us with an inclination toward substantially positive reinforcement quit talking about it. Of course I am of the mind that it would be finer if the compulsion folks would become converts. For now, we're probably just going to have to disagree.


What on Earth are you trying to say in the above quote? I cannot really figure out what you are asking me in order for me to answer...

Cherri


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> Jesusica you were more polite than I would have been, and Middle while I generally agree with you most of the time, as long as Petsmart sells electric fences, bark collars, prongs or chokes they should shut the F--- up and mind there own business or put there money where their mouth is and discontinue selling those items.



















The first thing that popped into my head when I read Jessica's post was... say what!!!?!!!!! First, like Kathy said, they sell that stuff. Also I would be quite impressed if I saw someone like Jessica at the store actually working on _training _ their dog, rather than letting it run amuck, barking on a flexi like 99% of the dogs I see at our petsmart do (not only little dogs but big ones too) 

I have taken Allie and Kelso to petsmart on a prong and no one says anything. 
I do shop there as well, mainly because all the mom and pop stores around here have puppies in crates and behind glass windows for sale, which I am sure came straight from a puppy mill (Kansas and Missouri being the heart of puppy mill nation)
So, I do like that petsmart supports adoption, and like to go there on saturdays to pick up stuff and see the dogs.

I actually think I would continue to go back, to show off how great a team you and Flash are


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Yes, Kathy, I would like to have PetsMart quit selling those items. It would be more insynch with their "positive training" approach. 

I still think they have a right to restrict the way customers interact with the customer's dog on their property. The store could, of course, ban dogs altogether. I wish they would "embarrass" the customers who don't clean up their dog's messes.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yeah I think the messes are more offensive than a collar correction! I also think each petsmart is only as good as the management that runs it. Maybe this guy was a clicker training nut case who did not realize that positive does not equal permissive - who knows?

I do use mainly positive reinforcement when training but if you give your dog a command that you know he knows and you know you are being blown off I will certainly use a correction. I guess I have never bought into the sentiment that the dog blew me off because I was not interesting enough or did not have good enough food. During the learning phase yes I will buy that but not while proofing. I may not have good enough food when a loose dog runs by on a walk either, and I know I am less interesting.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

isn't it funny that if you snap your dog's collar to get it to mind, someone comes running up, but if you drag your kid wailing out of a store by the arm, no one says a word? 

isn't it amazing that everyone and their brother will tell you what is wrong with your collar, lead, crate, training technique with your dog, but no one ever speaks up when you are berating your child in a public place. 

why is it that people feel so free to protect doggies and not to protect children? 

At the same time, why shouldn't we dog owners feel just as offended when someone offers us unsolicited and rediculous advice about the upbringing of our canines as people do if you were to walk up and tell them they should not shout at their child like that?

I guess I have seen children jerked around and shouted at in public with no manager coming to the rescue for them.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Good point.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Well, I am one person who WILL speak up if a child is being mistreated. I will also call the authorities. I haven't seen it much down here, but I was out and about a lot when I lived in Oregon. And boy did I call the police! I've also had people paged when they left their dog in a car in a store parking lot in Arkansas in summer. The guy sure didn't appreciate that one! Most folks didn't appreciate having the cops called about their treatment of their children either.
I speak up far less about the way people are working with their dogs. (Even though Kathy would find me a "Clicker training nut case" here.) PetsMart or any other store could make it a rule that you could not give your dog treats on the premises, too. Then if I chose to take my dogs to their store, I would feel I would have to not provide treats. The point isn't so much the training method (even though I am a clicker training nut case) as the right of the store to govern the behavior that takes place on its premises.

Guess I ought to go feed my crew because they have asked to be fed and I've ignored them. They are going to go into the alternative universe tonight and talk about other training methods for me and how much right they have to use those other methods... (They've been asking nicely... but just gave up. I wonder what their alternative method would be... Maybe a little nip would be the equivalent of a collar correction... I'd better go NOW!!!)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What I find ironic is that every Petsmart I've been to sells choke chains, prong collars, and e-collars... all manner of corrective training devices. If that's against their policy, why do they sell them? Jesusica I would go back with Flash and point this out next time.... I'd be interested to know the manager's response!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeWhat I find ironic is that every Petsmart I've been to sells choke chains, prong collars, and e-collars... all manner of corrective training devices. If that's against their policy, why do they sell them? Jesusica I would go back with Flash and point this out next time.... I'd be interested to know the manager's response!


well, because at the end of the day its just about money. they also sell pedigree even tho they (attempt) to educate people about "better" and "proper" nutrition.

i always found it funny that ours has a whole section for ferret supplies, and they're illegal in Ca.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereI find it's always hard to have someone come down on you when you didn't realize what you were doing was against their policy. AKC shows also frown on compulsion training on the show grounds. Or at least it is against the rules - or was against the rules - (we haven't been out for a long time.)
> 
> You can still train at PetsMart - you just have to use their methods. Just remember compulsion training isn't positive training whether you are angry or calm when you apply it. If they want only positive methods used in their store, that is their choice.
> 
> ...


I find this response INCREDIBLY condescending. You're essentially saying that since the OP was using compulsion, she must not know how to train her dog properly (and that Petsmart is justified in kicking her out for not using cookies). Perhaps that's not how you meant it but that's how it comes across.


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## nathalie1977 (Sep 4, 2006)

Any reason why you're not using the prong?

I use a small prong for Freyja... and truthfully, I rarely have to deliver corrections with it. She's a dog I don't have to correct much at all to begin with, but when I have made the mistake of having her only on the fur saver and I had to deliver a correction, it's more or less useless. Especially when it comes to other dogs. And if you keep popping the fur saver, it's like an annoying nag. It might be time to step up the tool (although I don't know if you're just following Dean's advice on this).

One thing that has helped to distract Freyja from dogs in general during obedience has been to improve her focus on me. But that's going to be an issue of maturity, TBH. What I have been doing that works well is going to the dog park, and doing obedienceg and playin with the ball OUTSIDE the fence. She's close enough to understand that she's to have no contact with them. At 20 months, I can keep her on a long down when other dogs are working, but she'll move around to get a 'better' view, and if they come too close she'll whine or do a low bark. But I can walk by another dog and generally have no problems anymore. Still, I just have to give her time.

Don't expect Flash to hold long downs around other dogs right now. Instead, use the tug/ball in the store and practice fun obedience, reward him for focusing on you. Do that for a while. Do the same outside the dog park. Only when he's reliably doing long downs with relatively few distractions should you attempt to make him do that at PetSmart, which is essentially a smorgasboard of distractions.

Just my two cents


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:I still think they have a right to restrict the way customers interact with the customer's dog on their property.


Yes, like any business, Petsmart has the right to set down rules for appropriate behavior on their premises. A tattoo parlor may refuse to tattoo you if you show up intoxicated; the gas station at the corner may ask you to leave if you're barefoot or not wearing a shirt; and the book store down the road may ask parents to stay with their kids at all times or be asked to leave.

The difference between those situations and the situation the OP talked about is the fact that in all those other situations, those rules are clearly posted in the store, usually at the front door. In the case of Petsmart, the ONLY thing it says is "Leashed and vaccinated pets welcome." It says nothing about how one may correct their dogs on Petsmart property or which tools one may use on their dog.

Really simple - if Petsmart has a policy as to what you can and cannot do on their property, then they need to post it where people can see it. Or they need to have it ready to show people if someone asks to see said "policy" or "rules".

If a manager were to come up to me and tell me, "You cannot correct your dog in this store because we do positive training only!" then I would most likely ask him where this policy was posted and whether he could provide me with a copy. If he can produce neither, then he need to go away. You cannot enforce a policy that does not exist.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

There is a good deal of confusion about what positive training is and isn't. I'm not surprised that there should be so much reaction when the subject is brought up. I am surprised that the Petsmart guy jumped in like that. Obviously, he wasn't all that clear on what it is either.

For a better understanding of this method of training I suggest checking out Paul Owens ADPT, CPDT, NADOI the original "dog whisperer". Owens has been doing training methods much longer than Milan and was known by that title in training circles long before that show came on TV. His method with some exceptions is the same method I've been using for decades and my father before me.

http://www.dogwhispererdvd.com/paul_owens.html


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## Dogrunner (Oct 27, 2006)

Cherri, I'm with you. I train my dogs the way I feel is best (and they're reasonably well trained and well behaved, so it obviously works). 

So a manager at petsmart didn't like the way a customer was training her dog....unless the dog was in obvious distress (being kicked, hit or screamed at), IMO, he was out of line and I would complain to the regional manager. If they want to allow only one kind of training to take place in their stores (by guests, not people using their trainers), they need to post that policy. And give an explanation as to what that training method is, for those of us who may not be up on all the "new" names. 

And yes, I'm tired of people trying to "help" me when they have no clue what they're talking about. I was picking up NB Sweet Potato and Venison (and had the Maltese with me)and the clerk asked me if I had tried the new Euk. I told him I couldn't use it because it contained barley and one of my dogs was allergic to it. "Oh, but it's excellent for dogs with allergies!"







Clueless. And he tried to get me to buy a smaller bag because he felt the food would get stale before Daisy ate it all. (I had just said that ONE of my DOGS was allergic to barley). 

I just paid for my food and told him he'd be surprised at how much Daisy (the Maltese) ate. Told him I'd probably be back in a week or so for another bag.







I hope he spent the day wondering how such a small dog could possibly eat that much. Dummy.


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## midnight804 (Jun 13, 2008)

petsmart is the devil. I have refused to go there for years since the day I saw a bunch of half dead hamster being sold at "50% managers clearance sale"


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## wrenny (Sep 20, 2007)

I think people blow things out of proportion. Anytime someone has a bad experience at petsmart, theres a huge band wagon that everyone jumps on.

It's a retail store. You know what to expect. At the end of the day, it's his store and not yours. The "average" consumer that goes to petsmart is the "average" person that you all complain about when walking your dog, when someone talks about how GSDs are evil, etc etc. So why are you expecting anything else?

Because in the end, the "average" consumer and dog owner is UNINFORMED.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

During a match or a run through, you may correct your dog. Choke chains are allowed. At AKC shows, Prong collars are not. During an AKC show, you can be disqualified in the obedience or rally rings for stern corrections. I have seen a guy get NQ'd for this. If it is bad enough they can ask you to leave I guess. 

Head Collars and harnesses are not allowed in the ring. Not sure about on the grounds. 

I think that alot of it is perception. An outsider looks at the prong collar and cringes and thinks what a tyrant uses a torturous object as that. The AKC wants pretty dogs, acting wonderfully. They do not want to see mongrels at their shows. Nor do they want to see training devices like prong collars. To their credit, they do not want to see people beating, or shouting at their dogs either. 

I guess that it is similar at petsmart. They do not want customers to come in and see people slamming their dogs around, choking the, or yelling at them. 

However, most of the petsMarts I have been in have the exact opposite problem --too many foo foo doggies that have no training, no manners, and an oblivious hag at the other end of the lead. I wish the manager would come out with a newspaper and smack these women over the head several times to compulsively encourage them to control their dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And lifting the leg on the open stock treats that are at the level of a feeding dish! I love all pet stores as long as they are clean and take care of the livestock they sell, that to me is sooooo important, even though I would never purchase any. I worked in an exotic bird breeding facility& store(we were also a full stocked pet store) before the petco's, petsmarts, etc. were around and I loved seeing people bring their pets in to visit and socialize. I agree, it is the ignorance of the pet owner that makes a bad situation. Our shop was all about informing and trying to get better homes for the animals thru owner knowledge. We started a local bird club just so the birds would receive better care. The store "Small World of Wings" has since closed and left a huge void in the pet care industry.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzer At AKC shows, Prong collars are not. During an AKC show, you can be disqualified in the obedience or rally rings for stern corrections. I have seen a guy get NQ'd for this.


Off topic, but at the last show I was in, one of the dogs right before me was NQ'd b/c of the handler's verbal correction (this was off leash). The dog was sniffing off course and she said "hey!" (not really even that mean), but for a mili-second the dog cowered and then recovered. The judge saw it and didn't like it.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

And they should be NQ'd. Your training should be done and the dog should be ready to show before you enter the show. 

No prongs, harnesses or head halters are allowed on the show site.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

The dog being ready to show and the dog actually showing are two different things 

I've never figured out what makes Strauss heel so wonderfully outside the ring and so poorly inside of it.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Nat ....
> I find this response INCREDIBLY condescending. You're essentially saying that since the OP was using compulsion, she must not know how to train her dog properly (and that Petsmart is justified in kicking her out for not using cookies). Perhaps that's not how you meant it but that's how it comes across.


Nat, Did you miss that I addressed several people in that post, not just the OP? What I said to the OP is that compulsion training whether applied in anger or with calm is still compulsion training. And that the store had the right to restrict her behavior on their grounds. I never said that someone using compulsion training didn't know how to train theirr dog. They know how to train using that method. And if you are going to do that and post where I am going to read it, I often will recommend alternatives. Nat, If you find offering alternatives (condescending or otherwise) offensive, what do you expect from a discussion board? 

I made a point of addressing the other posters who commented on postive training not working & so on by suggesting they look at material by, in one case, someone who trains schutzhund dogs with purely positive methods and another person who trains all sorts of dogs without compulsion. If suggesting people take a second look is offensive, I'll just keep right on offending.

As far as Clothier goes, she takes "learning dog" to another level that I find very refreshing. 

Clicker training nut case goes off to make another seperate follow up on this thread and then to do other things -- still amazed by Clothier's insights and also thinking that this thread alone makes some of it patently clear - dogs do a much better job of communicating with other dogs than humans do with communicating even with one another never mind our attempts with other species.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Kathy,

I didn't know about head halters and harnesses (which type of harness? All types?) but I found it ironic that while AKC did not allow prongs on the show site, the big gun vendors had them for sale. Somehow I thought they were on site....


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Well that is a sticky wicket! I guess they can't be on a dog on site. 

The rules are a touch wishy washy on that but they specify that no dog can wear those in the ring, they go on to say a few pages later that if you are warmimg up or training on the site the dog has to wear correct equipment. And no unentered dogs are allowed on the show site so therefore all dogs should be in compliance with correct equipment on the show site. 

So if the vendors are technically off the show site they can have prongs for sale and have thier own dogs with them as well. At our show the limits of the grounds are posted and the vendors are outside the limit. But what about an indoor show? And I guess it is kind of like Petsmart - can sell them but not use them. I would imagine AKC would love to restrict the sale of them as well but really can't control what the venors are selling?

No harnesses are allowed unless it is tracking test and it is a non-restrictive harness that the dog wears to track. 

Love rules. 

At our show a few years ago a lady from our club had a prong on her Briard. The AKC rep was there and happened to see it. She grabbed me and told me to tell the lady to get the prong off the dog or get the dog off the show site. The lady put the prong on the dog after she was finished in the rally ring and she assumed since she was done showing she could have it on the dog. AKC rep said NO!

But hey "clicker training nut case" you probably do not use a prong!!! (LMAO and meant to be funny!!!)

Middle's new name---- "CTNC"









BTW no insult intended and it was probably a poor choice of words. The moniker was really directed at the store manager.


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Thats because the so called trainers there get there certification out of a book they don't know there @ss from there elbow there


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> No prongs, harnesses or head halters are allowed on the show site.


AKC agility does allow body harnesses to be worn, all the way up to the start line in the ring. Just can't run with them. This includes no-pull harnesses like the Sensation. 

I have a feeling than when my Gordon starts running, she'll be wearing one - lol!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Wow, we were told no harnesses at our sanctioned A agility match that is coming up in August. Why they would allow them in agility and not obedience is mind boggling.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

Page 38 of the Regs includes harnesses: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/REAGIL.pdf

Gail Storm and other reps on the AKC Yahoo list have confirmed that no-pull harnesses are okay too. The question comes up a lot. They're very commonly used around here.

My guess as to the reasoning is that it prevents wear and tear on the neck and back of the dogs that drag the handlers into the ring.









Ever see Preacher the Lab run? Man, he's awesome. But the first time I saw him come into the ring with a no-pull, my first thought was what the heck was going to happen when Kelly took it off??? But once he got to the line he was all business.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know a dog that wears a harness because he has a problem with his neck or throat that does not allow any type of collar. The dog is a Leonberger. 

I am not sure if they show the dog in obedience, they do their other dogs. I would think that exceptions should be made for medical problems. 

But, then again, you can wear them at matches and run-throughs and you do not need to go to regular shows....

I like the rules about prongs and head collars too. I agree that you should not need that level of control if you are taking your dog into the ring. 

Since I am showing the craziest bitch I own next weekend, I better get that prong out and learn her how to walk on a lead NOW!!!!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Hey Kathy, I knew it was aimed at the store manager but, uh, I relate....


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Okay!!! Long as you know I was not poking at you! I respect you too much for that. 

Agile I have a hard time with the excuse that the dogs pull you into the ring - whatever happened to basic obedience? Even for agility dogs.

There is a lady out there that climbed all over me for insisting that Havoc hold the stay at the start line. Letting him "creep" showed he was really ready to go. Well, as far as I am concerned I don't care what sport it is - stay=stay!


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW.
> 
> Agile I have a hard time with the excuse that the dogs pull you into the ring - whatever happened to basic obedience? Even for agility dogs.
> 
> Well, as far as I am concerned I don't care what sport it is - stay=stay!


Yeah, but the dogs I'm talking about are SO intense, extremely high-drive, faster than people can imagine. They have a solid stay at the start, but getting there is another matter. Give me a dog like that and I'll mortgage the house.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

In my experience, some of the sports encourage enthusiasm entering the ring - you want the dog very "up" and charging to the ring can be part of that.


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