# Old World Shepherds in CT?



## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I was looking at breeders, and came across this one. Their dogs are something like what I'm looking for. The breeder sounds nice, but there aren't any titles or anything. What do you guys think? Or do you know any other breeders within about 5 hours from me - that would have large long coat pups like these? 

Long Hair German Shepherd Breeder, Long Hair German Shepherd Puppy & Long Haired German Shepherd Puppy For Sale - Old World Shepherds, Guilford, Connecticut


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do they do any hip/elbow testing?
I personally would keep on looking. Many breeders have long coated pups pop up in litters...better to go with a breeder that doesn't breed specifically for large long coats(these are not true long coat/but long stock coats?) 
I would pm Doc, he has some nice looking dogs and does health testing, though he's not in your area.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Never heard of them, but they have to be pretty close to me since they have a 203 are code. 

Never seen or met any of their dogs, but there are a few red flags that I notice right away. Don't want to get too into it and break any board rules, but you already mentioned some of the obvious ones.

I'd keep looking if I were you. If this is the look you like, contact some of the better show line breeders and see if they have any long coats available.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am about 10 minutes from Guilford and have never heard of them but that doesn't mean anything

It looks like they have 1 AKC reg'd dog and the rest may be UKC ? It just doesn't say.
Again, doesn't mean a thing.

I would want to know OFA numbers, and I like to see a pedigree on websites.

If they interest you, check them out, but I would want OFA's on the breeding parents as well as Elbows certified.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Yeah, Diane... I noticed that their dogs are UKC registered.

OP - the UKC is basically a bogus registry. The dogs might as well not even be registered at all.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

UKC has a better reputation than the other registries...but it is not *AKC* of course. I wouldn't class it as bogus whatsoever. They are much more involved in showing a dogs attributes than just the body. United Kennel Club: Questions About UKC Registrations


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Really? I figured they were all pretty much bogus in the united states besides the akc.

Why would anyone in the US have a legitimate reason to register with any other registries besides the akc? It's not like the akc is the SV where the dogs have to accomplish something first to be bred. They have have to have full registration parents and that's it. Why go elsewhere?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> OP - the UKC is basically a bogus registry. The dogs might as well not even be registered at all.



What?!? My dogs do several UKC events and we're proud of it. 

Unlike the AKC, the UKC heavily promotes the Top Dog program and the UKC Super Dogs. These are dogs that train and title in multiple venues, not just conformation. Also the UKC hosts several breed shows for breeds that are not sanctioned by the AKC (and lots of these breed fanciers have good reasons WHY they do not want to be sanctioned by the AKC). Dutch Shephers, Alaskan Klee Kai, and Berger Picard to name a few. I guess you can call it bogus if you want but have you ever participated in a UKC event? I haven't done an AKC event since I got into UKC and probably won't ever go back. The only reason I AKC register my dogs is so we can move on to UKC registry (and get the scorebooks and papers for Schutzhund).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Lucy Dog said:


> Really? I figured they were all pretty much bogus in the united states besides the akc.
> 
> Why would anyone in the US have a legitimate reason to register with any other registries besides the akc*? It's not like the akc is the SV where the dogs have to accomplish something first to be bred. They have have to have full registration parents and that's it*. Why go elsewhere?


I think you just answered your own question.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

UKC is pretty legit

It's the ACA I see alot of you'll find on petstore puppies that I would definately stay away from and Continental Kennel Club

Sometimes you'll see CKC, which could be canadian kennel club, but one should always ask, if it's Continental well they are the "we'll register anything" club


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I think I understand what Paul is saying....*you can correct me if I'm wrong Paul!*
LIVING and breeding in the USA....one would have to *question* WHY a breeder would not register their litter with AKC.....unless they were prohibited from doing so.
You can always register your dog with UKC also...and participate in their events.
*I would also question about the non AKC registration....it would be the normal thing to do.*


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Didn't mean to offend you, Lies. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong about something.

I never participated in any of their events. I was just under the impression that they were all kind of bogus - UKC, CKC (Continental), etc. 

If that's the case, why would a dog be strictly UKC and not registered with both?

Edit: Robin... That's exactly what I mean and Jane... That's kinda what I figured.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

- breeder is banned from AKC
- dog breed doesn't exist in AKC
- dog is not AKC registerable
- breeder has no reason to obtain AKC reg (dog's lineage is already UKC so AKC reg is not required, and breeder has no intention of participating in AKC events)

I don't know all the rules for UKC registration. All my purebred dogs have AKC full registration which is what I send to the UKC to obtain UKC registration. I'm not going to call the whole thing bogus because a few people are only UKC reg and not AKC. Not really my place to speculate. Maybe they just hate the AKC? Like I said if it weren't for AKC papers required for SV events (shows and Schutzhund trials), I wouldn't AKC register my dogs either whether they are registerable or not. If you're not going to do AKC events and don't need AKC registration for anything else, why give them money for nothing when you are committed to supporting another registry?


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm having such a hard time, so many weird websites, and so many breeders that I'm unsure of. Many have a LOT of angulation which I'm not a huge fan of. Many of the dogs seem smaller. 

There is a breeder very close to me called vom Englesbrun AKC German Shepherd Dog Breeders in New York

They seem nice.. don't know if they ever have any long coats. I love the more "boyish" faces. Beautiful dogs.. I just don't know.. they all look so much alike.


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Do they do any hip/elbow testing?


Well.. on this page they say that they do. 
About Us and Our Dogs
There's just no cold hard facts about anything here - but a 2 year guarantee, they don't believe in speutering before age of 2 years, and they got the info from AAHA about vaccinations should be every 3 years or longer and not annually (which I heard many times at Vet Tech school).


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

guarantee's are IMO worthless...look at what they've produced in the past/are they healthy(allergies and sensitive digestion should be addressed as well as the other common issues affecting GSD's), owners doing anything to show accomplishments with training? 
Too bad they don't post pedigree/health test results on their website. It would eliminate many questions if already put out there.
Dr Dodds vaccine protocol is what I follow, and it isn't a selling point of a breeders program for me.
_Owners_ should be knowledgeable on that and other health/nutrition/training issues once the pup comes home. I wouldn't go with a breeder because of their common sense views on vax and speutering.
If you like the looks of their dogs, go visit. Won't hurt anything and you'll learn from it, regardless. Look at the sticky here before you go: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Liesje said:


> - breeder is banned from AKC
> - dog breed doesn't exist in AKC
> - dog is not AKC registerable
> - breeder has no reason to obtain AKC reg (dog's lineage is already UKC so AKC reg is not required, and breeder has no intention of participating in AKC events)
> ...


Add one more to the list ... "breeder" is a dishonest, lying, sack of donkey dung! 

My bouncing baby boy, Bruiser, is UKC registered because the breeder lied to me about the ownership of the bitch. Long story, both sire and dam are AKC registered (and UKC registered), have very impressive American Show Line pedigrees, but the puppies couldn't be registered with AKC due to the ownership problem and the breeder's inability, or unwillingness, to resolve it. I was strung along, told nothing but a string of lie after lie after lie about the bitch's ownership status!

FWIW Bruiser might be worthless but I wouldn't trade him for a million dollars!!!


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

Who would "Doc" be? I can't seem to figure out how to find him. and how far away are we talking? Lol I have done 5 hour car drives for tournaments and stuff before. I know some breeders offer to fly pups..I'm not so sure on having a puppy flown to me.. I know many people who have gotten some puppymill disasters that way. (A expensive odd-looking scotty pup that's tail mysteriously turned white, for one!) But if you guys say its a good place I believe you!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Mink said:


> I'm having such a hard time, so many weird websites, and so many breeders that I'm unsure of. Many have a LOT of angulation which I'm not a huge fan of.* Many of the dogs seem smaller.*
> 
> There is a breeder very close to me called vom Englesbrun AKC German Shepherd Dog Breeders in New York
> 
> They seem nice.. don't know if they ever have any long coats. I love the more "boyish" faces. Beautiful dogs.. I just don't know.. they all look so much alike.


GSD's shouldn't be big/bulky hunks. They are a medium breed not a large breed. 
Have you gone to any GSD clubs to view actual dogs? That will tell you something about structure/work/agility type. 
You may see a dog that strikes your fancy, then you can find out what lines they are and who bred them. It is better going that route than clicking on websites. I'd hit some shows, agility trials, SchH clubs if I had the time in searching for my next pup.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mink said:


> Who would "Doc" be? I can't seem to figure out how to find him.


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/members/42424-doc.html


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I've communicated with this breeder & found her informative, open & knowledgeable. Her dogs weren't quite what I was seeking (I could be wrong but they sounded softer than I care for) so I never went further. From what I've heard her dogs are structurally sound, healthy & biddable. Another person was interested in her dogs but was told she didn't permit visits b/c it was interfered with family too much. IF this is still true, it would be a deal breaker for me. IF possible, I like to see the dogs in the fur, watch their interactions with unknown people, family & other dogs. IF it's still true that's certainly her perogative but for myself I'd look where visits from potential buyers are welcome. (The other person was a serious buyer looking to acquire a GSD immediately up to 6, 9 mos)


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I am most likely getting a Black Magic puppy. I love the upcoming litter's parents. It will be quite a wait though. But this is also a mixed blessing since we get more time to plan ahead. (we currently need to replace our car, etc.) I have to see about a mini-vacation, crazy road trip to pick up a puppy when its time to. We do have some friends and family in their state, just have to see if the towns are close.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In the meantime, go to clubs or where ever you can to observe the GSD in movement and training. 
There should be some upcoming trials in your area. I'd look/learn while you wait.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Really? I figured they were all pretty much bogus in the united states besides the akc.
> 
> Why would anyone in the US have a legitimate reason to register with any other registries besides the akc? It's not like the akc is the SV where the dogs have to accomplish something first to be bred. They have have to have full registration parents and that's it. Why go elsewhere?


My Shepherds have been all UKC registered, they are working titles rather than a beauty contest. The way I understand it they are often used as SAR dogs. (I found my breader throught the local SAR group) I was also told and I don't know if this is true but they have less health problems than AKC dogs. My UKC dogs all had beautiful hips but I did lose one to DM.  I think my next dog is going to be a rescue.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Black Magic is an excellent choice. I can't wait to hear more.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> Black Magic is an excellent choice. I can't wait to hear more.


:happyboogie: And Picture's too!


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> Black Magic is an excellent choice. I can't wait to hear more.


:thumbup:


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Mink, alot of your questions are answered in Welcome to the GSD/FAQ's for the first time owner - German Shepherd Dog Forums more specifically

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/welcome-gsd-faqs-first-time-owner/162231-how-find-puppy.html

It IS hard to initially locate the best responsible breeders that have puppies that are a good fit for you. The 'bad' ones are easy to find, have tons of puppies, will sell to anyone, and are the ones all of us fall over when first looking for a puppy. 

But the best breeders also only sell to serious people who know about the breed and will really appreciate a puppy from them. These breeders will always take a puppy back (if a situation arises) and these breeders 'vet' out puppy owners so they know the new owners know the breed, what they are doing, and would never end up dumping the puppy or dog in a shelter down the line.

If you just wander thru the http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/gsd-rescue-information/ on this forum you'll see how many of the poor breeders are around cause that's who's dogs are listed. They may be great dogs, but were sold to bad puppy owners cause a poor breeder didn't do their work to get a great home for their dog.

:wub:


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I did look at the "how to find a puppy", or more specifically, its link to what a responsible breeder is like. 

I was not fond of the website for the "old world CT" breeder, but liked what they said and the look of some dogs. I was asking on here because, for all I know - a few people might have perfectly great dogs from them. They could just be bad at putting it all out on the web. There were good responses, highlighting things that I myself wasn't thrilled about - and I never thought about that breeder again. 

Here is where I am coming from: 

I have lived with GSDs literally, my whole life. My parents had a 1-yr. old GSD when I was born. We also had a GSD mix. My father has been a police officer (now lieutenant) my whole life and I have grown up around and albeit drawn to interact with the police K9s at every opportunity. Just months after our first GSD passed away, my father got another GSD, and got my mother one a year later. 

When I was growing up, my parents each had their dogs and I wanted one of my own. My father finally gave in and after much lecturing, I was given my Ruger. Ruger grew up to be a fantastic GSD, and I stuck with him through years of food allergies and trying to find a solution. I never ever abandoned him, even if I was committing financial ruin at times. If I were a very religious person, and believed, without a doubt, that my death would bring me and Ruger together again, I most likely would not be sitting here today. But, being one not to gamble, and having other animals rely on me, I have had time to heal. It still stings, but not overwhelming like it used to feel. I feel a world better and have much more spring in my step as I think with wonderment, of all the things I can do and new memories I can make with starting a fresh chapter in my life with my next GSD. 

I am looking to "have my cake and eat it too", I really want a great temperament, intelligent, want-to-be-by-my-side GSD that will (ideally) be healthy as a horse! Ruger was about 80lbs slim, my mother's current GSD Raven is 65lbs.. and just not the warm, hug-able, hunk of GSD that Ruger was.
Raven is more stand-offish, skittish, and I don't fault her much for that since we got her from a shelter at 2 years of age. With a lot of work, she has made some baby-step improvements. I also do know a dozen or more local GSDs I interact with on about a monthly basis for years - and my observations have been that the smaller, wiry, GSDs have been less trustworthy than the "larger" / sturdy / thicker-boned ones. Its almost like the smaller GSDs I have encountered, have a complex similar to that of a toy or Terrier breed. They just have such over-the-top posturing, growling, bravado.. which I assume some breeder somewhere around here decided to (or didn't care) breed for. Not to mention jumpy or skittish as well.. but this could be owner-influenced. 

Not to come off too strongly... I have volunteered and worked for shelters, and through my time at Veterinary Technology school, and dog grooming I have heard and seen just about anything at least once. >_< Most humans are disgraceful, and I'm not one to just be openly "ok" with anything important without tons of research. 

I am liking Black Magic GSDs. I like their mission statement, their knowledge, their history, their outline on how they rear their puppies (socialized with other critters, cars, crates, introduced to grooming, individual attention), the - temperament - health - looks of the next litter's sire & dam. Of course - the Sire looking like (4 month old) Ruger pulls at my heart strings, but I am fully aware of this. When I was exploring, I thought this one Dam was wonderful, and it turns out the next litter will be with her. 

I wanted a puppy in warmer weather, since there are many more options for camping, going places, events, and socializing. We always did so many things with Ruger in tow. This summer will sting, and it will drive me up a wall.. but Black Magic GSDs next litter is in the Fall. I think it will be worth the wait.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Mink, I don't see it on Black Magic's website, just double-check to make sure that your prospective puppy's parents have certified hips and elbows. My future puppy's parents will be clear of Degenerative Myelopathy as well; it's a death sentence and a terrible way to die and is becoming more common. 


On their website, they say that all of their dogs have fantastic temperaments. To me, a breeder telling me their dogs have great temperaments is like a Chevrolet salesman telling me Chevy is a great car. I personally want to see what their dogs do with those great temperaments, or what their offspring is doing. If they're not doing anything but breeding pets to pets to make more pets, I'm not interested because it doesn't prove intelligence or temperament. 

I don't know Black Magic from Adam so this isn't a commentary on them, just some things to look out for in general.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Mink, I don't see it on Black Magic's website, just double-check to make sure that your prospective puppy's parents have certified hips and elbows. My future puppy's parents will be clear of Degenerative Myelopathy as well; it's a death sentence and a terrible way to die and is becoming more common.


?? Sorry to jump in but I thought DM was mostly enviornmental? We just lost a dog to DM and the vet said it was unfortunatley becoming more and more common in our area. Water in the area is tainted from mining. My other dog now gets filtered water. Neither of his parents or any dog that I know out of his lines had DM.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

DM is genetic, not environmental: Degenerative Myelopathy - disease basics

Are you mixing it up with something else, perhaps?


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Gosh, those dogs are huge!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

arycrest said:


> Add one more to the list ... "breeder" is a dishonest, lying, sack of donkey dung!
> 
> My bouncing baby boy, Bruiser, is UKC registered because the breeder lied to me about the ownership of the bitch. Long story, both sire and dam are AKC registered (and UKC registered), have very impressive American Show Line pedigrees, but the puppies couldn't be registered with AKC due to the ownership problem and the breeder's inability, or unwillingness, to resolve it. I was strung along, told nothing but a string of lie after lie after lie about the bitch's ownership status!
> 
> FWIW Bruiser might be worthless but I wouldn't trade him for a million dollars!!!


Or maybe... Breeder wants to make a statement and boycott the AKC and their practices by going elsewhere. 

I am actually considering not to take my dogs to the AKC but to the UKC since I was told by AKC people that they do not represent the German Shepherds in the United States.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

shepherdmom said:


> ?? Sorry to jump in but I thought DM was mostly enviornmental? We just lost a dog to DM and the vet said it was unfortunatley becoming more and more common in our area. Water in the area is tainted from mining. My other dog now gets filtered water. Neither of his parents or any dog that I know out of his lines had DM.


DM is genetic. It's a recessive gene, where a dog can be a carrier and the owner never knows it, but if you breed a carrier to a carrier, some pups will be fine and some pups will develop it. That's why it's important to test breeding dogs; they might carry the gene but never show any symptoms.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

From what I've read it's not certain that the DM test is applicable to GSDs. There's speculation the genetics for DM are different in GSDs. Given this, I'm not yet willing to make the test a requirement of what to look for in breeders. (FTR, Djibouti's breeder has done DM testing for quite awhile. I'm not opposed to it, I'm simply not yet certain how well it predicts DM in GSDs.)

UKC...In so many ways I like it better than the AKC. I feel it's more geared to a functional, healthy dog, rather than largely being a canine beauty pageant. Given this, I was disappointed to discover it's granted full UKC registration to people who had only limited AKC registration. I haven't looked recently, but at one time they had on their site an acknowledgement that they would do this. It was somewhat fuzzily worded & I wasn't certain if they meant they'd always do so or only when the moon was full. It was an unpleasant eye opener to a breeder who sells her pups on limited AKC registration until the dog has passed health clearances & temperament testing. I don't think they're a 'bogus' registry, but that's a bogus thing to do.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Going (more or less) back on topic...

I'm certain Black Magic OFAs. I don't know if DM testing is done or not. Regardless, it's important to know the overall health history of the dogs...How often do they see DM? How late in life does it present? Do puppy buyers ordinarily stay in contact with them & pass on health info?

Wendy from Black Magic West posted here some years ago. She was cool, courteous & professional. This was particularly impressive given the hostile nature of the thread. IMO, both Black Magic East & Black Magic West are great places to look for an exemplary GS companion.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Surprised Doc hasn't popped in...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I'd take a Black Magic dog in a heartbeat. Never heard a bad thing about them.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Whiteshepherds, I agree. I've never heard anything bad. Equally important, I've heard many great things about 'em.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

RubyTuesday said:


> UKC...In so many ways I like it better than the AKC. I feel it's more geared to a functional, healthy dog, rather than largely being a canine beauty pageant. Given this, I was disappointed to discover it's granted full UKC registration to people who had only limited AKC registration. I haven't looked recently, but at one time they had on their site an acknowledgement that they would do this. It was somewhat fuzzily worded & I wasn't certain if they meant they'd always do so or only when the moon was full. It was an unpleasant eye opener to a breeder who sells her pups on limited AKC registration until the dog has passed health clearances & temperament testing. I don't think they're a 'bogus' registry, but that's a bogus thing to do.


This is correct, AKC full registration is not necessarily a pre-req for getting UKC registration. However they don't just automatically grant registrations, even for AKC full registration. When I tried to register Pan (who is AKC full reg.) I was required to send them a few more things before they would grant the registration. I don't know how carefully they research the pedigree or what they are doing but it wasn't like you just photo copy your AKC certificate and that's it. Plus even someone being shady by getting UKC full reg with AKC limited reg before jumping through whatever hoops the breeder requires can't really do anything but UKC conformation with UKC registration anyway. It doesn't count for anything as far as the AKC, SV, VDH, FCI, USCA, WDA, etc are concerned. It's not really the UKC's business to get in between breeders and sellers and their AKC agreements. I've watched and competed in countless UKC events and have never seen a UKC registered GSD that I felt should not be registered (even though many are not my cup of tea for any of several reasons). I believe that AKC registered dogs that are limited and not full can be upgraded to full, so either way the dog meets whatever requirements AKC has for being registered full. There's nothing shady about the pedigree of a dog with limited registration.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Djibouti is on limited registration. My only quibble with it is the orange border is ugly. I much prefer the purple. BUT it would be crummy to go behind the breeder's back & get full UKC registration so that I could produce UKC registered GS pups without meeting her breeding criteria. Breeders I've discussed this with are appalled, largely b/c UKC is a (generally) reputable organization, & UKC registered litters will have that veneer of legitimacy. IMO, they should not be giving full registration to dogs without the breeder's consent. Full AKC registration is at least implied consent. Limited is the opposite. JMO.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I see the UKC being about way more than just breeding and registering litters. I would say many if not most of the dogs you see at UKC events are not breeding dogs. I've even shown an altered dog. They are about the "total dog". They describe themselves as a "performance dog" registry. I don't need my breeder's consent to register my dogs with CPE, APDT, U-Fli...other sport/performance organizations. The UKC is not a new registry either, it is only about ten years younger than the AKC (both late 1800s).

Also the UKC has no equivalent for "limited" registration. If they did not accept AKC limited registration then dogs with AKC limited would not be able to get UKC registered at all.

IMO if the breeders are picky about what registrations owners can use, they should discuss this up front and get it all in writing before making a sale. Luckily my breeders have only been thrilled that my dogs can participate in about a dozen different events through the UKC.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I was also a bit surprised when I first learned you can UKC reg with AKC limited, but the more I think about it, the more I support erring on the side of giving dogs the opportunity to participate (not just conformation, not just registering litters) and not restricting their ability to participate because there is no UKC equivalent to AKC limited.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I found this online - haven't verified the accuracy of it. 

_The American Kennel Club has always recognized the role of the responsible breeder in preserving the integrity of its registry and the quality of the purebred dog in this country.* In June of 1989,* the delegates of the AKC voted to give breeders a valuable tool to protect their programs--the option of selling their puppies under Full or __Limited Registration__. _

The UKC may not come under the same pressure from activists, parent clubs etc. as the AKC. (assuming that's why the AKC added another option for registration) Anyway, I had never heard this before, thought I would share and see if anyone else had.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Liesje said:


> I was also a bit surprised when I first learned you can UKC reg with AKC limited, but the more I think about it, the more I support erring on the side of giving dogs the opportunity to participate (not just conformation, not just registering litters) and not restricting their ability to participate because there is no UKC equivalent to AKC limited.


Karlo is AKC limited and it was no problem to register him with UKC...his dam is AKC/UKC registered, but not his sire(sire is an import). Just had to have #'s and photo from side and a head on shot, and of course the $.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> DM is genetic, not environmental: Degenerative Myelopathy - disease basics
> 
> Are you mixing it up with something else, perhaps?


I had to have my Shadow put to sleep 3 months ago due to DM. It was my understanding that it was an autoimmune disorder possibly triggered by things in the enviornment or a virus. From having autoimmune issues myself, I know that while it can pass down through maternal lines there is also an enviornmental trigger or component to it. People who appear to have no autoimmune issues in their family lines can suddenly get sick while those who have a long history of it, can be skipped. 

" It is seen with relative frequency in German Shepherd Dogs; therefore, it appears there is a genetic predisposition in this breed. While many breeds suffer from a myelopathy that is progressive, the particular degenerative myelopathy of the German Shepherd Dog is unique, as it is believed to be an autoimmune disease." Degenerative Myelopathy - Is It Stalking Your Dog?

A lot of the stuff I and my vet were able to find out about DM came out of a University of Florida study done in the 90's. If there is more recent information out there I would love to know about it.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

I believe there are a number of conditions that act much like DM. I'm not sure how vets make a definitive diagnosis for it, but I think it has to be based on more than symptoms. Did your vet get a definitive diagnosis with Shadow? IF so what tests &/or evaluations were involved.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

RubyTuesday said:


> I believe there are a number of conditions that act much like DM. I'm not sure how vets make a definitive diagnosis for it, but I think it has to be based on more than symptoms. Did your vet get a definitive diagnosis with Shadow? IF so what tests &/or evaluations were involved.


Mostly it was ruling out everything else. He had bloodwork and x-rays and was given Doxi and other meds that didn't work. There was just nothing else wrong. He was a healthy active 9 year old.

"Diagnosis is by the process of elimination, since regular neurological tests aren't definitive..." http://www.gsdhelp.info/neuro/gsdmyelopathyfredlanting.html


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## Mink (Jan 26, 2011)

I got some more info, the parents of this litter have been bred before with good results. Family of the breeder have a dog from these parents, and there has been no problems reported from any owners of dogs from this pairing. Both parents tested good for hips, and will be getting tested for DM, which is still a new test that hasn't had much time for a ton of validation. ^_^


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Congrats, Mink! I can't wait to hear more about your pup. 

Given the uncertainty & controversy surrounding the DM test in GSDs, a thorough family history is invaluable. For that matter, there are many conditions, both serious & minor, for which testing doesn't exist. Detailed knowledge & analysis of the extended family is irreplaceable. Knowledgeable breeders will never abandon the ongoing assessment & study of their dogs & the pups they produce.


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## micantina46 (6 mo ago)

Lucy Dog said:


> Never heard of them, but they have to be pretty close to me since they have a 203 are code. Never seen or met any of their dogs, but there are a few red flags that I notice right away. Don't want to get too into it and break any board rules, but you already mentioned some of the obvious ones. I'd keep looking if I were you. If this is the look you like, contact some of the better show line breeders and see if they have any long coats available.


 I had a puppy ordered with them in 2009, I am from the Uk but was living in Florida , I paid the deposit of either $500 or $800 but had to cancel as my husband died there so I was returning to the UK and it would not have been fair for the puppy to be in quarantine for weeks on end so cancelled it, but they would not give me back the deposit. Very disappointed in them.


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