# Feeding Sensitive GSD



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Hi Guys,

I have a question that hopefully you can help me figure this out. I have a GSD puppy with sensitive stomach. I am currently feeding him rice with boiled ground beef lean 90% with pumpkin and few handful of Hills GI diet that was prescribed by the vet. He is doing decent on it but I know its not a desired diet for him and I am trying to figure out what to do. I am considering feeding him raw diet and possibly mixture of a good kibble dog food. What do you suggest and what do you feed your GSD's? If you feed raw do you buy frozen food from a pet store or a human store? What kind of meats do you buy and what kind of kibbles do you feed? I tried my GSD on a Fromm large breed puppy formula but he didn't do well on it at all. He got diarrhea from it so I had to return it. Please help me figure this out. Just keep in mind this puppy has super sensitive stomach and needs something that is not too rich and I prefer grain free. 

Thank you in advance,
-LMTB


----------



## ayankiefan (Aug 31, 2011)

I've had really good results with Rachael Ray's Zero Grain. I literally have tried every grain free brand out there and this so far has been the best. I supplement it with cooked chicken and veggies.


----------



## Mr.Nose (Apr 27, 2013)

Please do not worry. GSDs are known as "Diarrhea Dogs". It is normal, and it happens quite frequently, especially among pups.

And yes, you get loose motions every time you transition from one staple food type to another. (Eg. if you are feeding him chicken kibbles from Kirkland brand and switch to kirkland lamb, expect diarrhea for the first few days.) 

So your dog might not actually have a "sensitive stomach", it is just that you panic too fast and go back to the "safe food". 

I have heard this, but have no personal experience of this, that vets are not the best source for nutrition information for dogs. 

I personally prefer going to "www.dogfoodadvisor.com". I did my research and as per my budget, found "Kirkland's supreme" to the best food over all. I feed him 50/50 kibbles and raw chicken every day.

My recommendation : pick a dog food you like, and feed it to the pup. Let him have loose stools for a week or 10 days. Then the stools will firm up. 

And yes, pepto bismol works wonders for me to treat my dog's diarrhea. Pumpkin adds fiber to the diet, and helps firm up the stools too.

And congratulations on being a new GSD daddy / mommy. Keep in mind the first few months are very worrying for a new parent. But GSDs are a healthy breed, and often the best thing you can do, is relax and be patient.

Good luck.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Thank you guys for your replies. I am a new GSD mommy and LOVE my pup to pieces. I have owned dogs my entire life and have been very good with picking the right food for my dogs but I seem to struggle with my new puppy. You are right I do panic and put him back on the regular "safe" food. I just want to find something that is safe and good for my puppy. I have no problem cooking for him if I have to but I don't want to keep giving him on rice as that stuff doesn't do well with their tummies and I need to give him more vitamins and stuff that he needs as a puppy. He is already 17 weeks old and I have had him since he just turned 9 weeks. He is growing very fast and my concern if I don't find something good that helps him grow and develop that I am possibly making things worse for him. I bought some raw beef diet made for dogs and am going to start him on that slowly by adding it to his rice and ground beef. I would like to totally get him off of rice and keep him on maybe ground beef, raw beef, and some kibbles that I can find. So I tried Fromm that doesn't work and I hear some GSD just don't do well on Fromm so I am not sure. Although I was also told that Surf and Turf by Fromm is not too bad. I have him on Hills GI diet which is not something I want to keep him on as I don't like commercial food that has all sorts of additive and byproduct in it. So I am looking for advice. What kind of raw do you feed? Do you buy one that is made for the dogs or do you buy it at the grocery stores and feed the human grade raw?


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi LMBT!
And congrats on your new puppy!

Yes, the hamburger and rice diet does not have the sufficient amount of vitamins and minerals a pup needs and could cause a problem with long term use. So you are wise in wanting to get off of it.

A great and easy way to feed raw (while you are learning) is to use Steve Browns Homemade Dinner Mix and add to your own ground meat! Use *very* lean meat, like ground round, or "Jennie O" ground turkey 93/7%, as too much fat can cause gut upset if he is sensitive. Steve Brown is a guru at raw feeding and has books out! He created this mix to make it easier for folks who wanted to feed raw, but couldn't mess around with all the raw parts and supplements.
See Spot Live Longer™ Homemade Dinner Mixes | Product Catalog
Info on the mix: Healthy Dog Food Dinner Mixes If you do decide to use his product, pm me and I'll give you a chart on how much to feed a puppy.

I've been feeding total raw for 18 years because it gives me control of the quality of our dogs food, but when we vacation, or run out of food, I use The Honest Kitchen, which is the ONLY human grade food on the USA market that the FDA recognizes and allows to use the words "Human Grade" legally on their packaging and advertising. I'd start with Embark (grain free). Here is their site to read about it: All Natural Dog Food - Dehydrated Pet Food | The Honest Kitchen
If you type in your zip code at the site listed below, it will give you a location near you to purchase it as it is not found at typical "pet" stores. Where to Buy Honest Kitchen - Honest Kitchen Stores | The Honest Kitchen It is a dehydrated food so a 10 pound box will cost about $70 but it RE-hydrates to 35 to 40 pounds.

Also, adding a digestive enzyme and pro-biotic called Digest All PLUS, to help him assimilate his food better and keep his gut healthy would be a good choice for him. Most of the ingredients are organic and it is human grade. This one contains both in the mix to make it easier: The Wholistic Pet 

You can add some canned pumpkin (NO spices) to either mix for a few days to firm up his stool if it is too loose.

A good herbal to keep on hand to sooth an upset tummy or gut is "Slippery Elm" found at a local health food store. You can open one or two cap-fulls on to his meal depending on the severity of the up set. 

Hope this helps!
Moms


----------



## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

Check out the thread a few posts down from yours:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tomache-grain-free-type-regardless-brand.html

I had the same issue when my girl was a pup...Proplan Sensitive Stomach and Skin did wonders. I never would have thought Proplan but a bunch of people here had suggested it before so at that point I would have tried anything.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Mr.Nose said:


> Please do not worry. GSDs are known as "Diarrhea Dogs". It is normal, and it happens quite frequently, especially among pups.


This is not normal, nor should be thought of as normal. 

The fact it seems to be more and more common with the GSD is sad and breeders need to take notice and correct!


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

My last GSD whom we adored and loved to the end had EPI, purely genetic. Breeder did repeat breeding of his parents afterwards and told me he would outgrow this condition, normal for puppies.

NOT NORMAL!

Sorry....did not mean to hijack thread.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Definitely not normal. Diarrhea always means there is intestinal inflammation. That is not normal.
Do German Shepherds often have sensitive stomachs? Yes.
Should you just not worry if your dog has diarrhea?
Absolutely not.
You need to find a food that agrees with your dog and makes him have a normal stool.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Let me just make sure I address the diarrhea part. I have that under control right now, however whenever I add/change anything in his diet he gets runny stool. When I first got him he had giardian and caccidia which are no longer an issue. Also when I brought him from the breeder we forgot to get the puppy food he had him on so I had no choice but to give him something new and of course his tummy did not like that. Since I have been trying to get him on Fromm large breed puppy food which he didn't do well at all. I tried it three different times and I introduce him VERY slowly so I know its not how I introduced it to him but the food is too rich. I originally had him on boiled chicken and rice which he did ok but his stool was not as firm as it should so the vet said the chicken might be too rich in protein for him at the moment. So I put him on ground beef and rice with organic pumpkin and a table spoon of yogurt. He is doing good on that BUT I want to get him off of rice and add food that has vitamins and that he can tolerate. I have no problem getting him on raw food as long as his tummy can handle it. This morning I have added one cube of raw beef that I bought for dogs at our local pet shop. I am adding one piece of raw beef with each of his meals today and see how he tolerates it. I know its not a lot but its a start and I don't want to shock his system and do it at snail speed. I feed him 3 times a day and he loves his meals that I cook for him BUT once again I don't think its enough for a puppy. I would love to find a good quality kibbles as well as good source of raw diet for him. The breeder recommended to feed him raw the day I got the puppy but I was not listening because I never fed my dogs raw diet so it was all foreign to me. Now I realize with GSD's that might be the best diet and possibly my solution to his tummy issues.


----------



## Mr.Nose (Apr 27, 2013)

lovemytb said:


> Let me just make sure I address the diarrhea part. I have that under control right now, however whenever I add/change anything in his diet he gets runny stool. When I first got him he had giardian and caccidia which are no longer an issue. Also when I brought him from the breeder we forgot to get the puppy food he had him on so I had no choice but to give him something new and of course his tummy did not like that. Since I have been trying to get him on Fromm large breed puppy food which he didn't do well at all. I tried it three different times and I introduce him VERY slowly so I know its not how I introduced it to him but the food is too rich. I originally had him on boiled chicken and rice which he did ok but his stool was not as firm as it should so the vet said the chicken might be too rich in protein for him at the moment. So I put him on ground beef and rice with organic pumpkin and a table spoon of yogurt. He is doing good on that BUT I want to get him off of rice and add food that has vitamins and that he can tolerate. I have no problem getting him on raw food as long as his tummy can handle it. This morning I have added one cube of raw beef that I bought for dogs at our local pet shop. I am adding one piece of raw beef with each of his meals today and see how he tolerates it. I know its not a lot but its a start and I don't want to shock his system and do it at snail speed. I feed him 3 times a day and he loves his meals that I cook for him BUT once again I don't think its enough for a puppy. I would love to find a good quality kibbles as well as good source of raw diet for him. The breeder recommended to feed him raw the day I got the puppy but I was not listening because I never fed my dogs raw diet so it was all foreign to me. Now I realize with GSD's that might be the best diet and possibly my solution to his tummy issues.



Note: people are saying constant diarrhea is not normal. I agree. But they are not qualifying their statement.
Let me put it this way: GSD's get diarrhea a lot more than people (for example). They have sensitive stomachs. My dog is more than 100 lbs and he gets diarrhea (for no reason) at least once a month. We feed him pepto bismol 3 times a day, and he is fine the next day. 

I do not think you and I can go on a holy war with the breeders to breed more stomach healthy dogs. We already have our pups, so we have to work with what we have. 

And trust me, it is not a big deal. Nothing to worry.

And YES : *Every time you switch foods - the GSD will have loose, runny stools. *Period.

So this is what is recommended to make the transition smooth and possibly avoid the runny stools: 
Do a gradual switch.

If you are feeding "Brand A" to pup, and want to transition to "Brand B", divide the transition period in to 1 to 2 months (depending on your dog). 

Week 0: 100% Brand A only.
Weeks 1 and 2 : 75% Brand A + 25% Brand B - mix in the feeding bowl. 
Weeks 3 and 4 : 50% each Brand A + B
Weeks 4 and 5: 25% Brand A + 75% Brand B.
Week 6: 100% Brand B.

This gradual transition is recommended EVERY time you switch.

Regarding raw diet: There is a lot of information on the internet about raw diet. And like vegans, raw diet enthusiasts will keep telling you it is the best.

But I personally do not prefer raw diet for the following reasons:
1) Expensive : around 3 to 4 times the cost of dry kibble I get (Costco Kirkland). Also time consuming. On a side note: I will not cook for my dog specifically. I love him, but he is not a human child. I need to treat him like a dog, so he grows up knowing his place and behaves well.
2) Raw diet is tricky : you can't feed just muscle meat and bones, for example: it needs intestines with the "green" still in it (read: unwashed) so the dog can ingest chlorophyll. Lots of organ meat for minerals and vitamins. 
3) Raw diets often need to be supplemented with vitamin supplements.
4) Some people mix raw and kibbles.

Yes it can be done. People do it. I don't. 

Regarding being scared of feeding him right: Do not be scared, remember fear is a good thing. It prevents a person from doing something silly for an extended period. But also you need to have the courage to tough it out.

GSD's are a tough breed, descendants of wolves, they are naturally strong. And a puppy is not a human baby. An upset stomach won't kill it. 

Some people in this forum like to play too safe. I am on the other hand, all for experimenting and learning. 

Choose a brand or type of food that meets your requirements, follow the gradual transition plan as outlined above. You and your pup will be fine.


----------



## Mr.Nose (Apr 27, 2013)

Additional thoughts:

1) Turmeric is superlative. In every way. And it acts as a natural anti biotic to kill germs if pup has a stomach infection. 
2) Pumpkin and rice are "safe" foods. Do not feed that to a dog consistently. It is like when you eat boiled oats when sick. But would you eat that every day?
3) Start brushing your dog's teeth right away. Very important to get him used to having his teeth brushed. Buy a non foaming doggie tooth paste, tooth brush can be anything. I buy 2 colgate tooth brushes for $1 from the local dollar store.
4) A young pup needs a lot more Omega 3 and 6 fatty acids, given he has just his under coat. Consider buying some flax seed oil or even canola oil and adding it to his diet. Salmon oil from Norway is great, but why spend 5 times the money for the same thing.
5) Get pup used to being brushed. I recommend 2 brushes at an early age. One with soft bendable nylon bristles (looks like boot polish brush) and one with rounded metal pin heads - like a human woman uses. I and my dog, hate the "slicker brush" with the bent metal pins without rounded heads.
6) Keep Gas-X handy to treat bloat.
7) Pepto Bismol!!
8) Fresh hydrogen peroxide to induce vomiting if dog ingests something you need vomited out.
9) shots / vaccines on time. You cannot miss the schedule for any reason.
10) Frontline Plus.
11) Check pup's poop regularly. Just hold it in your gloved hand, and feel the texture, look for worms, small organisms. 
12) No chocolate, No onions, No grapes, No raisins, No alcohol for dogs. All fatal.
13) No raw hide for pup. Causes bloat.
14) No cooked bones. Raw is fine.
15) Do not over feed calcium to "grow him faster". Causes serious problems. Note: over feeding is a broad term. Just don't go over board.
16) Don't read opinions from a 100 sources. Trust a few good ones, and go with your gut. 
17) Do not go over board, you will burn out yourself and your dog might get spoilt. Be gentle and caring, but always keep in mind it is a dog.
18) Till pup has at least the first 3 vaccines protecting it from Parvo (administered once a month), dont take it to the play yard, don't let it sniff excreta left behind by other dogs, if you let it play with / interact with another dog, ask the owner if his dog is vaccinated. 
19) Start training dog for loose leash walking. 
20) Eat a lot of green vegetables, fresh fruit and avoid fast foods and bleached, refined flour based products yourself.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I am dizzy from so many incorrect things in the above Mr Nose posts.
Especially the all shots on schedule not missed for any reason.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Sunflowers said:


> I am dizzy from so many incorrect things in the above Mr Nose posts.
> Especially the all shots on schedule not missed for any reason.


I too am not sure where to start.

I feed a raw diet at a cost of $40-$70 per month depending on what and where I find some deals. $70 would be an expensive month for me. No idea where the 4 x cost for kibble come from. 

My dog is nearing one year now and has never had diarrhea. That to me is normal. 

As mentioned, be careful who's advice you follow....be sure to research to your own comfort level.

I follow Dr. Jean Dodds vaccination protocol to avoid over vaccinating and the complications that can come with doing so. Quick google on her name will bring up her schedule.


----------



## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

So the Hills diet was working? If it does I would stick with that for a bit. It's not the best food in the world, but with a puppy especially I would feel more comfortable with making sure he gets a balanced meal. Feeding rice and chicken or beef is ok for a time, but not long term. 
Maybe look into some good probiotics or digestive enzymes. Carmspack (I don't know if I spelled that right?) may be able to help with that.
I had good luck with Perfect Form by the Honest Kitchen when I had one with tummy trouble. Actually, if you really want off Hills, I would recommend Honest Kitchen dog food. I had good luck with that when one of mine had tummy issues.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

barnyard said:


> So the Hills diet was working? If it does I would stick with that for a bit. It's not the best food in the world, but with a puppy especially I would feel more comfortable with making sure he gets a balanced meal. Feeding rice and chicken or beef is ok for a time, but not long term.
> Maybe look into some good probiotics or digestive enzymes. Carmspack (I don't know if I spelled that right?) may be able to help with that.
> I had good luck with Perfect Form by the Honest Kitchen when I had one with tummy trouble. Actually, if you really want off Hills, I would recommend Honest Kitchen dog food. I had good luck with that when one of mine had tummy issues.


I have been reading about Honest Kitchen and its so expensive but I think I will bite the bullet and try it. I got a bag of another natural food from my local pet store that has the "top" food which I didn't open yet. I did some reading on that food and don't like what I see. So I am going to stop over today and return it. Based on the Honest Kitchen website that store is the re-seller of their food. I am going to try the formula with fish or turkey. I will buy a small bag and see how he does on it. If it works than I guess I have an expensive puppy. :wild: The more I read about all these brands the more headache I get. I am really wanting to keep him on some raw food and kibbles so that it doesn't get too expensive but it looks like my new child is high maintenance.  If these two are a hit with my puppy and his tummy I don't care what it cost I will just be jumping for joy at this point. Maybe later in life I will be able to switch him to something else but right now my #1 priority is to get that tummy happy and a growing puppy what he needs. 

You guys have been tremendous help and I appreciate all your advice. I am just going nuts over this feeding program with my new child.  I swear and I thought my horses are sensitive this puppy beat them for sure. I feel like its far easier to feed a horse proper nutrition than my GSD puppy...  But I love him to pieces so I am on the mission to find food that makes his tummy very happy. 

One quick question. What oils should I buy for his supplement? Will it upset his stomach? 

Thank you again for all your help!!!! :gsdsit:


----------



## unkas (Oct 15, 2013)

*Sensitive stomach*

I had a gsd with many food allergies. The only way I found out what I could feed him was through a blood test. The doc was quite amused in that he was about to tell me to feed him venison when the test came back he was allergic to fish (which we already knew), poultry, and venison. The test was well worth the $115 I spent.


----------



## barnyard (Jun 21, 2012)

I add coconut oil to both dog's food, and salmon oil to the younger dog. Salmon oil makes my older girl itch, but she can eat sardines, so I add that as a topper once a week.
I would wait until you find a dog food that works before adding other things, just in case he has a sensitivity to the oils or other things.


----------



## Mr.Nose (Apr 27, 2013)

Canola oil is fine. EVOO or flax seed oil or salmon oil. Any oil with omega 3 and 6 fatty acids.


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

*My Pet Carnivore*

While GSD often have sensitive stomachs, I do not think diarrhea is "normal" either. I've been to the moon and back with Maverick's GI issues, but have resolved them after a lot of time and patience. In a nutshell (for us at least) - Go 100% raw

No grains, potatoes, rice or other starches (this includes treats)
No veggies (others prefer veggies, we choose not to)
Meals contain meat, bone and organs only. 
Tripe is fed once or twice per week

I started on the premade raw as I learned more about raw feeding. Sadly, its very expensive. We now feed 100% from MyPetCarnivore.com. Calculating per pound, they are less expensive than the premade like Nature's Variety. My Pet Carnivore is very high quality and most of their animals are grass fed. The meat, bone and organ ratio is appropriate as well. I am not associated with them, I'm just a very happy customer. Going 100% raw turned Maverick's life around. She hasn't been to the vet for any issues since we started the raw diet. I'm a fan, will never go back.....!


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

People, please stay on topic. I have removed the back and forth bickering. If it starts again people will be issued warnings..

Thank you,

ADMIN Lisa


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

cci058 said:


> While GSD often have sensitive stomachs, I do not think diarrhea is "normal" either. I've been to the moon and back with Maverick's GI issues, but have resolved them after a lot of time and patience. In a nutshell (for us at least) - Go 100% raw
> 
> No grains, potatoes, rice or other starches (this includes treats)
> No veggies (others prefer veggies, we choose not to)
> ...


Thank you so much for the site information. I went onto MyPetCarnivore.com and OMG its so much cheaper than what you buy at the pet shop and even at a human store. I boil ground beef for him right now and I pay $3.90 per lb. I buy 90% lean and its really good meat but one $8.50 package lasts me only 3 days thats with me adding it to rice and Hills GI ID kibbles. This site might be my option. Wonder if there are any stores like this one in my area. Thank you for your advice thats very helpful. I started my puppy on raw yesterday. I only added few nuggets of meat to his meal just to see how he does. So far he only had 6 nuggets yesterday and today I am adding 5 to each of his meals. He eats 3 times a day right now since he is only 17 weeks old. I will be slowly moving him towards the raw and removing rice from his diet. I think this might take me almost a month to get him 100% moved over to a new diet but I am hopeful.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

You may want to feed the raw on it's own...not with kibble.

Some say that since raw meat is digested differently, feeding with kibble may cause stomach upset etc. if I am not correct about that, someone here will jump in I am sure.

I feed raw only so I've never had to think about how to incorporate kibble.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

And a quick update. I went to the store last night and bought Aristan and Honest Kitchen trial packages to try him on. I made a small package of turkey of honest kitchen and its such a strange looking food. I didn't give him much just a little enough to get his nose wet and see how he likes it. He spent 20 minutes cleaning up that plate that had pretty much nothing in it but he kept looking for more. Not sure what I will do with this as I expected for that meal to be more substantial and its more like a soup. In any case this is something I can try and I hear is good for dogs especially those with sensitive stomachs.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Saphire said:


> You may want to feed the raw on it's own...not with kibble.
> 
> Some say that since raw meat is digested differently, feeding with kibble may cause stomach upset etc. if I am not correct about that, someone here will jump in I am sure.
> 
> I feed raw only so I've never had to think about how to incorporate kibble.


Where do you buy your raw meat for your dog?


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Yes, the HK looks like cooked oatmeal but if he likes it, it's the "cleanest" commercial food out there!

When choosing a raw food check the fat % for your dog. Some raw companies add more fat to keep the price low. Too high of a fat content could put him into a tail spin since he has a sensitive gut.
Moms


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Yes, the HK looks like cooked oatmeal but if he likes it, it's the "cleanest" commercial food out there!
> 
> When choosing a raw food check the fat % for your dog. Some raw companies add more fat to keep the price low. Too high of a fat content could put him into a tail spin since he has a sensitive gut.
> Moms


Oh yes I check all the packages for law fat diet. I am also trying to stay at a lower end of the protein as well. Since the vet said that chicken might be a bit high for him in protein and so was the Fromm puppy food I am trying to keep both at a lowest that I can. I am trying Artisan Grandma Lucy's meal as well. I got the Bison version of it. I will see what works best for him. It seams that Grandma Lucy's meal is more chunky. Do you just give him that as a soup or do you mix it with something? I was thinking once he gets onto raw diet I can mix it with raw meat and/or ground beef that I am giving him. I am trying to get him off of rice and Hills diet ID food. I am adding raw beef by Northwest Naturals. Its a slow process for us right now, I am not expecting him to be fully transitioned for a month at least. I just have to be careful with him.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Doesn't honest kitchen contain a little bit of meat and a lot of other things?


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

lovemytb said:


> Where do you buy your raw meat for your dog?


I am in Ontario..you?

I don't buy any ready mix type raw food..


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Doesn't honest kitchen contain a little bit of meat and a lot of other things?


The stuff is very powdery and its soupy unlike fresh cut meat pieces. I was expecting the chunks of meat in it but it grinded up. I don't know how a dog can get full on that and without having some sort of meat in his meal. I am going to be adding raw meat to his meal as I want him to have that too.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Saphire said:


> I am in Ontario..you?
> 
> I don't buy any ready mix type raw food..


I am in the US. So do you buy his meat at the grocery store than?


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi lovemytb!
May I ask why your vet wants your puppy on a low protein diet? Just curious, seems old school.
Quotes: 
"Pets get amino acids from the protein they eat. And the quality and *quantity *of protein is extremely important for carnivores – it’s the very foundation of their health. We know that cats and dogs, as carnivores, *require lots of high quality protein *not only to maintain good organ and immune function, but also to maintain healthy muscle mass as they go through life and the aging process. " Dr. Karen Becker.

“Results do not support the hypothesis that feeding a high protein diet had a significant adverse effect on renal function”. (1 Waltham International Symposium on Nutrition of Small Companion Animals, University of California, Davis, CA)

In another study, older dogs were divided into two groups.
One group was fed a low protein diet and the other a high protein diet for the next *four years*.
“Results of this study indicated… there were *no adverse effects* from the high protein diet and mortality (death rate) was actually higher in the low protein group”. (2 DR, Brown SA, Crowell WA.)

“Unless your veterinarian has told you your pet has a kidney problem and it is severe enough to adjust the protein intake, y*ou can feed your pet a high protein diet* without worrying about ‘damaging’ or ‘stressing’ your pet’s kidneys.” (Dr. Fosters & Smith)

You need to let the HK "set up" to Re-Hydrate for about 15-20 minutes before feeding if you can. You'll see that it thickens up to a really stiff oatmeal.

When you add meat, you really don't have to cook it, you can add it raw unless you are uncomfortable with it!

Here is how to add the meat to the HK per Kat Penick at THK: "For every 1 dry cup of Thrive, Love, Verve, or Embark, you can add ½-1 cup of meat. Then, to compensate for the meat, you will want to reduce the dry mix by ¼ - ½ cup. I have attached some information that may be of help. Here is an example: 5 cups of Thrive + 2.5 cups of meat – 1.25 cups Thrive = 3.75 cups Thrive (dry) and 2.5 cups of meat _per day_." 


Single recipe: Dry H/K = ¾ cup + 1 cup water + ½ cup Meat = 1 ½ cups of prepared food

Hope this helps!
Moms


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Yes, the HK looks like cooked oatmeal but if he likes it, it's the "cleanest" commercial food out there!
> 
> When choosing a raw food check the fat % for your dog. Some raw companies add more fat to keep the price low. Too high of a fat content could put him into a tail spin since he has a sensitive gut.
> Moms


Good point. I agree with this. I need to watch fat content too. Maverick has not had the chicken or duck from MYPETCARNIVORE yet as it may be too rich. Whether or not the skin is included makes a difference. She does well on the beef, turkey, white fish and rabbit. When she was on kibble, Fromm was too rich for her, Stella and Chewys raw is too rich for her too. MPC doesn't add anything to the mixture of meat bone and organ. They use the prey model for all of their mixtures.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

cci058 said:


> Good point. I agree with this. I need to watch fat content too. Maverick has not had the chicken or duck from MYPETCARNIVORE yet as it may be too rich. Whether or not the skin is included makes a difference. She does well on the beef, turkey, white fish and rabbit. When she was on kibble, Fromm was too rich for her, Stella and Chewys raw is too rich for her too. MPC doesn't add anything to the mixture of meat bone and organ. They use the prey model for all of their mixtures.


Were you able to contact MPC?
I've tried several times to email Dana there asking those types of questions, and have never gotten a response from her or the company. Site was vague about ingredients last time I researched it.
Moms


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Were you able to contact MPC?
> I've tried several times to email Dana there asking those types of questions, and have never gotten a response from her or the company. Site was vague about ingredients last time I researched it.
> Moms


Dana is from Irish Acres Pet Health in Neenah WI. She is the WI affiliate for MPC; however, I do not order thru her so I have never had any contact with her. I order directly from the MPC site and Irish Acres just handles the delivery of it. I have contacted Paul and Suzanne Dijak-Robinson, the owners of MPC and they have been responsive and helpful each time. You can reach them at 317-694-4749 or [email protected]. I hope you have better luck this time!


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Hi lovemytb!
> May I ask why your vet wants your puppy on a low protein diet? Just curious, seems old school.
> Quotes:
> "Pets get amino acids from the protein they eat. And the quality and *quantity *of protein is extremely important for carnivores – it’s the very foundation of their health. We know that cats and dogs, as carnivores, *require lots of high quality protein *not only to maintain good organ and immune function, but also to maintain healthy muscle mass as they go through life and the aging process. " Dr. Karen Becker.
> ...


I am not really sure why. All the vet said is the food I had him on Fromm was too rich for him and when I had him on boiled chicken and rice he was not doing that well on it either so she thought maybe too much protein. I have been adding Northwest Naturals raw beef nuggets and so far he is doing good. I have been adding that slowly but today I added more so still crossing my fingers. I bought a bag of Grandma Lucy Artisan Bison version and will try him on it starting probably today. Again I will give him very small portion of it so that I can see how his tummy does. I have ordered samples of Honest Kitchen Turkey and Beef meal to try. Artisan is basically the same thing as Honest Kitchen except it seems to have more chunks of meat and vegetables vs. Honest Kitchen. However I will try both and see what works best for him. 

I also spoke to a woman from MPC and it looks like they deliver in my area and they have pickup locations as well. I am 3 1/2 hours away from them so that might work great for me. I am wondering if I can get the same stuff from our local butcher. We have one near me and those guys got me cow bones cut exactly how I asked them to. I was going to boil them for the puppy and the other dogs in the house but I am told to give it raw. Whats your experience with that? Why can't I buy raw meat from my local butcher instead of MPC? Are they made/cut differently? My local butcher said they can cut my meat anyway I want it. I guess I am wondering why people buy from places like MPC vs going to their local butcher. Any ideas? I am trying to understand the differences.


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

Never ever give your dogs cooked bones. All bones should be raw. The products from MPC are from grass fed animals which are free of antibiotics and hormomes. Grain fed meats have the nutrient properties of grain, which is something I believe our pups do not need and should not have. These are just my beliefs based on what I've learned through my research. I recommend Googling Grain Fed meat vs grass fed meats and there will be millions of hits. That was you will be able to determine what is best for you.

MPC also had the appropriate ratio of bone and organ in their mixture. That is a convenience for me and one of the reasons I choose to go to them and not my local butcher. Although I DO buy grass fed meats from a local butcher, they are expensive and those products are for my husband and I! I can get the same quality for Maverick from MPC, with the bones and organs already mixed in, at a much lower price per pound.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

cci058 said:


> Never ever give your dogs cooked bones. All bones should be raw. The products from MPC are from grass fed animals which are free of antibiotics and hormomes. Grain fed meats have the nutrient properties of grain, which is something I believe our pups do not need and should not have. These are just my beliefs based on what I've learned through my research. I recommend Googling Grain Fed meat vs grass fed meats and there will be millions of hits. That was you will be able to determine what is best for you.
> 
> MPC also had the appropriate ratio of bone and organ in their mixture. That is a convenience for me and one of the reasons I choose to go to them and not my local butcher. Although I DO buy grass fed meats from a local butcher, they are expensive and those products are for my husband and I! I can get the same quality for Maverick from MPC, with the bones and organs already mixed in, at a much lower price per pound.


What do you usually get from MPC for your dog? I have a 17 week old puppy that I am transitioning to raw diet with either Artisan or Honest Kitchen. He is on ground beef right now so I figured if I get him on Beef or Bison that would be easier transition.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Thanks cci for the info! I"ll contact them!

cci is correct.....NEVER cook any bones.

If you decide to feed completely raw, you will have to add organs to the diet and "Bone Meal" IF you are not feeding bones to supply the calcium that the diet is missing. Bone meal is actually ground bone, not just calcium (which is inappropriate). I make my mix by purchasing meat from the butcher and mixing in ground organs which I get from an Oma's distributor in my state. To this I add pureed vegetables/fruit. My ratio is 1/2 pound of organs to 4 pounds of ground muscle meat (ground round/chuck, etc), + 1 pound of veg/fruit. On days they do not get bones, they get "Bone Meal" + other supplements and oils. Everyone does raw differently! That's how I have been feeding for 18 years so I know exactly what they are eating!
Since MPC has the bone and organs in the mix, it may be easier for you. All depends on how much time you want to spend. You would just want to check and see what % of fat they mix in as their site does not explain this. Sensitive tummy's would be best with around 6 to10% fat depending on any particular dog and what he/she can handle.

Something in the Fromm's may not have agreed with your pup, but you should be feeding higher protein, not lower.

How long has he been on the cooked hamburger/rice diet? Have you been giving him a multi vitamin of some kind? Even if you are giving the Hills kibble, if he is not getting the "suggest amount of feed" per day, he is not getting the required amount of vitamins (that is in the feed) for his growing body, so you may want to either switch his food a little quicker than you had planned (IF all is going ok) or supply him with the extra nutrients in a supplement form.

Moms


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Thanks cci for the info! I"ll contact them!
> 
> cci is correct.....NEVER cook any bones.
> 
> ...


What supplements do you suggest I add to his diet? He has been on this formula since I got him at 9 weeks old. He is going on 18 weeks now. I add pumpkin and give him Greek yogurt. I have had him on probiotics but the one I am using making his stool soft. I just bought another brand the one someone on this thread suggested.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Wow, your vet should have told you to supplement this diet being he is a new pup! 

What you could do, is get the Animal Essentials Multi: Animal Essentials Herbal Multi-Vitamin Dog Cat Supplement and some bone meal (a combo of Cal/Phos): Bone Meal Powder 1 Lb (454 Grams) by NOW which will at least give him some of the nutrients he needs. You can pm tonite if you wish so we can discuss.
Moms


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Wow, your vet should have told you to supplement this diet being he is a new pup!
> 
> What you could do, is get the Animal Essentials Multi: Animal Essentials Herbal Multi-Vitamin Dog Cat Supplement and some bone meal (a combo of Cal/Phos): Bone Meal Powder 1 Lb (454 Grams) by NOW which will at least give him some of the nutrients he needs. You can pm tonite if you wish so we can discuss.
> Moms


Yes my vet has not told me any of that.  She put him on Hills science diet and that was the end of story. I personally asked for probiotics and enzymes and she recommended to just buy something in the store that is made for dogs. So I did and its not the best. I bought Miracle Probiotics. 

Thank you for the recommendations. I will buy this tonight and hopefully can start him on it. I also bought a coconut oil for him but I have to add all these things carefully and one at a time just to make sure that if something doesn't agree with him I know what it is. 

Thank you for your offer to PM and for all the help. I might take you up on it.


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

lovemytb said:


> What do you usually get from MPC for your dog? I have a 17 week old puppy that I am transitioning to raw diet with either Artisan or Honest Kitchen. He is on ground beef right now so I figured if I get him on Beef or Bison that would be easier transition.


 
I usually keep Maverick's fat content under 10%. I feed the turkey (6% fat) Beef (1%) rabbit (6%) and the whitefish from MPC. She used to get chicken, duck, venison and lamb from Nature's Variety but I stopped that because I didn't want to feed her the veggies anymore. Plus its more expensive. Vital Essentials chicken and duck agrees with her, but I feed that every now and then. I just purchased duck and chicken from MPC, we will see if she can tolerate it, but I'm guessing not. The fat content is much higher.

You might want to jump over to the Raw feeding threads. There is a lot of helpful info there to help understand the ins and outs of raw feeding. This site is what taught me the basics and provided resources for me to look in to. I am very thankful!


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Wow, your vet should have told you to supplement this diet being he is a new pup!
> 
> What you could do, is get the Animal Essentials Multi: Animal Essentials Herbal Multi-Vitamin Dog Cat Supplement and some bone meal (a combo of Cal/Phos): Bone Meal Powder 1 Lb (454 Grams) by NOW which will at least give him some of the nutrients he needs. You can pm tonite if you wish so we can discuss.
> Moms


 
Just my two cents..... LOVE Animal Essentials. I use the Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes. Love it. Most will say you don't need supplements when feeding raw, but I chose to. I found what works for her so I continue to do it!  They have great products.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

The coconut oil will be a great addition!

If you do order, the Bone Meal, it is given "Per Cup Of Food" *for a puppy as follows for a RAW diet:*
dosage for *"NOW"* BRAND ONLY:
1/2 cup food = 1/2 teaspoon
1 cup food = 3/4th teaspoon
2 cups food = 1 1/2 slightly rounded
3 cups food = 2 1/2 teaspoon slightly less than level
IF you are feeding a fair amount of the Hills kibble, the above amounts would need to be adjusted.
Various brands of "Bone Meal" such as "Swiss", "KAL", "Solgar", or "MCHA" require different amounts than listed above. They should not include anything like Vitamins D & A.

Concerning Digestive Enzymes and Pro Biotics - you may want to consider the Mercola brands. The Digestive Enzymes contain "animal sourced enzymes" such as Ox Bile and Bovine Pancreas (species appropriate) for your pups sensitive gut, instead of just "plant" ingredients.
Digestive Enzymes: Healthy Pets Digestive Enzymes | Optimal Pet Health - Mercola.com 
"For Pets" ProBiotics - for strengthening immune system and gastrointestinal sensitivities. It contains E. faecalis, a bacterial strain which is appropriate for dogs: Pet Probiotics | Optimal Digestive Health for Pets - Mercola.com

Hope this helps!
Moms


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

cci058 said:


> Just my two cents..... LOVE Animal Essentials. I use the Probiotics and Digestive Enzymes. Love it. Most will say you don't need supplements when feeding raw, but I chose to. I found what works for her so I continue to do it!  They have great products.


Totally agree! 
Their products are fantastic!
Quote: "Ingredients must first pass human food or pharmaceutical industry standards for purity and potency!"
Just thought this pup needed a few "animal based" ingredients to help his type of tummy troubles!


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

Momto2GSDs said:


> Totally agree!
> Their products are fantastic!
> Quote: "Ingredients must first pass human food or pharmaceutical industry standards for purity and potency!"
> Just thought this pup needed a few "animal based" ingredients to help his type of tummy troubles!


I agree  I hope her pup finds relief soon. I hate to see them have these types of troubles!


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Momto2GSDs said:


> If you do order, the Bone Meal, it is given "Per Cup Of Food" *for a puppy as follows for a RAW diet:*
> dosage for *"NOW"* BRAND ONLY:
> 1/2 cup food = 1/2 teaspoon
> 1 cup food = 3/4th teaspoon
> ...


*NOTE:**IF* there is sufficient bone in the diet (approx. 6%-15% of a meal), the Bone Meal would NOT be used.

You are feeding Northwest Naturals (usually contains ground bone) and Hills (contains a calcium supplement), plus Hamburger and Rice. The amount of calcium in your pups diet changes (we don't know how much of each ingredient you are feeding) as you are weaning off of the Hills, keeping on the Northwest Naturals, hamburger/rice and also adding other brands of food. So all of this needs to be taken into consideration. ;-)

Moms


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Thank you guys so much for your help!!!! I truly appreciate your feedback and suggestions. I have taken them all into account. I am creating my own diet for him. I have placed an order for coconut oil, bone suppliants, and mineral supplements as per your recommendations. I have also purchased propiotics and enzymes. I will add each of those separately and let his tummy adjust to it before I introduce next one. I am hoping within 3-4 weeks I should have him on the new diet. 

So this is day #5 on Northwest Naturals and he is now getting total of 30 cubes per day. So far he is doing good on it. However I am still continuing with his regular rice/ground beef/hills diet kibbles/100% pure organic pumpkin. I am now giving him less rice and less kibbles. Last night I added a little bit of Honest Kitchen turkey meal to his food and I added it this morning. So far we are doing ok but the day is not over yet.  He had a bit of a soft stool yesterday afternoon but I am expecting this since I am introducing new stuff to his tummy. I am just hoping for no diarrhea. What I have noticed is he is pooping a lot more and his poops are HUGE compare to what they were before. I take it his system is getting cleaned out and adjusted. I also don't see him having much of hickups as he usually does. 

I will say this all my dogs LOVE Honest kitchen. I let the others have puppy's left overs since I don't give him the entire portion yet and I am using sample packages. They all literally attack that plate and the two females fight over who gets to finish whats in the plate, which I have never seen them do before. Even the Labradoodle who is very picky about his food loves it. I just cannot afford to put them all on the this food, its going to kill us financially if we put all 4 dogs on it. My other guys do very well on Natur's select. They have been on that food for a long time and their coats are great, don't throw up, and the food is high quality. Not sure if any of you have ever heard of it but its made in the California and delivered to our door step for no additional charge. The food is not cheap but I think is well worth it. I won't attempt to put my GSD on it since he is so sensitive. If the diet I create for him works he will stay on it. I will probably order some raw food from MPC for November delivery. They have two stops literally 15 minutes from my home and work so I will take advantage of it. What do you recommend I order initially for my puppy?

Again, I want to thank you guys sooooooooo much for your help!!!! What an awesome group to be a part of. I am so glad I went online looking for GSD forums. Don't know how I would have gotten so much information if I didn't find this website. I have been searching all over the internet and I can honestly say this forum and you guys have been by far the most helpful in my journey to make my GSD puppy's tummy happy. :greet:


----------



## cci058 (Nov 18, 2011)

I recommend starting with the turkey, rabbit and beef from MPC. They are lower in fat. Chicken is usually the staple, but MPC chicken has a little more fat in it. But it depends on you pup. Glad we could help! Good luck!!!


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

cci058 said:


> I recommend starting with the turkey, rabbit and beef from MPC. They are lower in fat. Chicken is usually the staple, but MPC chicken has a little more fat in it. But it depends on you pup. Glad we could help! Good luck!!!


Thank you!!!!

Well it looks like my puppy that normally eats everything does not like Artisan Grandma Lucy meals but does love Honest Kitchen. So I guess we are stock with Honest Kitchen. Of course he had to pick the most expensive food. :shocked: 

As of few days ago he is officially on the following: Honest Kitchen, ground beef, Northwest Naturals raw Beef, Organic Pumpkin, and a little bit of wild salmon fish oil. He loves his meals so much that he started growling at my other dogs while eating and protecting me from our other dogs when I am making his food. Now I have to work with him on these issues as I cannot have him snap on my other dogs. One of my dogs is a chi mix so she is small and I worry if he is aggressive he will hurt her when he is larger.


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

lovemytb said:


> Thank you!!!!
> 
> Well it looks like my puppy that normally eats everything does not like Artisan Grandma Lucy meals but does love Honest Kitchen. So I guess we are stock with Honest Kitchen. Of course he had to pick the most expensive food. :shocked:
> 
> As of few days ago he is officially on the following: Honest Kitchen, ground beef, Northwest Naturals raw Beef, Organic Pumpkin, and a little bit of wild salmon fish oil. He loves his meals so much that he started growling at my other dogs while eating and protecting me from our other dogs when I am making his food. Now I have to work with him on these issues as I cannot have him snap on my other dogs. One of my dogs is a chi mix so she is small and I worry if he is aggressive he will hurt her when he is larger.


 LOL!!!! Your pup knows a good food when he tastes it! 

I emailed Kat Pennick (at The Honest Kitchen headquarters) about the question of the amount of "real meat" in the HK. Here is her response: "Our foods range from about 23% to as much as 40% meat/fish. The highest meat content is found in Thrive and Embark. The lowest is found in Keen and Verve. 
 Our recipes are meat first, USDA muscle meat, no meals or by-products, and this makes up the highest individual percentage of any ingredient. If you wish for a diet with more meat and less fruits, vegetables, and grains, consider Thrive or Embark".

If you are creating your "own diet" make sure that you take into account the amount of bone or calcium that is already in the items he is eating, before adding the bone meal.
You can probably nix the canned pumpkin and save some money after his tummy calms down, and save it in case he ever gets loose stool again.

Good luck and keep up posted!
Moms


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

Thank you Momto2GSDs!!! :greet: Yes the little stinker knows what he wants and he gets what he wants. :laugh: And guess what he picked? Yes Embark! I bought a box of it for him after I had him on samples for a week. I might stop pumpkin in a week after I feel more comfortable. I also decided to add Perfect Form from Honest Kitchen. I figured that might help him with his stool as well. I think I am pretty confident with his diet right now. He is completely off kibbles and rice now so crossing my fingers all continues to go well with his tummy. 

Thank you so much for asking Honest Kitchen the question, its very helpful. And of course you guys have been a tremendous help with helping me figure this out. Hopefully I won't have to worry about his diet. I will most likely start buying meat from MPC and adding that to his meals but right now I am going to keep up with this and make sure he does well on it before I start adding anything else.


----------



## kirsten (Jun 25, 2013)

My 7 month old GSD has a very sensitive tummy. She is eating Fromms grain free Surf and Turf kibble and has firm stools for the first time in awhile. Prior to that she had firm poop eating Smallbatch raw, but it just got too expensive to continue feeding. Fromms S&T is probably the only kibble I can think of that she ate and didn't get the runs. It firmed up her poop in about a day too.


----------



## lovemytb (Aug 26, 2013)

kirsten said:


> My 7 month old GSD has a very sensitive tummy. She is eating Fromms grain free Surf and Turf kibble and has firm stools for the first time in awhile. Prior to that she had firm poop eating Smallbatch raw, but it just got too expensive to continue feeding. Fromms S&T is probably the only kibble I can think of that she ate and didn't get the runs. It firmed up her poop in about a day too.


Thank you Kirsten! Its good to know. I am going to keep my pup on the diet I came up with for now and maybe look into grain free kibbles in the future. I am sure when he gets larger he will be more expensive on raw and Honest Kitchen but I will see how my budget handles. The way I see is its cheaper to spend money on good food than later spend money on the vet and later have other issues. A visit to a vet is more expensive compare to buying a high quality food. Of course I have no idea how much it will cost me per month with the diet he is on now. However until I feel the pinch I am going to do what I am doing now. I have a voucher for Fromm food so maybe I will try it at some point. I get to buy any large bag of any Fromm food. Is S&T a gold version and is it grain free?


----------



## kirsten (Jun 25, 2013)

lovemytb said:


> Thank you Kirsten! Its good to know. I am going to keep my pup on the diet I came up with for now and maybe look into grain free kibbles in the future. I am sure when he gets larger he will be more expensive on raw and Honest Kitchen but I will see how my budget handles. The way I see is its cheaper to spend money on good food than later spend money on the vet and later have other issues. A visit to a vet is more expensive compare to buying a high quality food. Of course I have no idea how much it will cost me per month with the diet he is on now. However until I feel the pinch I am going to do what I am doing now. I have a voucher for Fromm food so maybe I will try it at some point. I get to buy any large bag of any Fromm food. Is S&T a gold version and is it grain free?


Fromm's S&T is part of their Four Star line and it is grain free. I avoided it for awhile as I didn't want to feed my pup a kibble with potato in it, but after trying some other brands with higher protein and lower carbs with no luck, I picked up a bag of it and was happy to see such nice solid stools, and so quickly too. Were going to stay on this and try rotating with the other grain free Fromm varieties. The calcium % is 1.18 so appropriate to feed a large breed puppy. All 5 of my dogs are eating it. My very picky pug has been barking to wake me up in the morning wanting her S&T breakfast too. 


Grain-Free Surf & Turf dog food - Fromm Family Foods


----------



## summit1231 (Nov 8, 2013)

My 10 month old has a wildly sensitive stomach. I've gone through many types of food to help settle his stomach and the only food that has worked for him is Canine Caviar. I rotate all the grain free flavors, but he loves it.. Does a lite dance while I get it ready, and is always so excited to eat. His stools are firm and much smaller and less smelly than any other food I've had him on. Try a food with less protein (I stay around 28%) and only one carb and protein source. I know that limits the playing field but t really helps with their digestive systems since they're known to be very sensitive!! Good luck!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------

