# Child biting dog



## DaniRo (Jan 8, 2013)

Hello I'm new to this forum. I have a question not about a GSD but about a Red Heeler dog. My sister has a RHD she is approx 18 months old. She is very nice and loving to me and certain other people but she has now bit my 4 year old 2 times. The first time she broke skin and left bruises on her legs and the second time she went for her face but luckily had a muzzle on. (After the first biting incident I insisted she wear a muzzle around kids.) She has gone after my two young nieces and 5 year old nephew also. I understand kids can be rough with dogs but this one hasn't been provoked by any of these kids. She just seems to lung after them and they aren't even in the same room or near her. She no longer is aloud near any children in the family. She also has bit my brother in law and my adult nephew. My sister has started taking her to training classes after I told her she needs to or she will have to get rid of this dog or put her down. I am so afraid she may permanently harm one of the children. 
Well anyway she did let the trainer know that she does not like kids and certain men and has gone after them on more than one occasion. The trainer told her she may not be able to be trained to like kids ever. That some dogs just don't like kids and never will. I didn't like this answer I feel any dog especially being young still can be trained to like or behave around children.
My sister lives with my parents and I don't want to take my daughter to their house in fear the dog may bite her face and rip it open or worse. I hate that I don't feel safe taking my daughter to see her grandparents or let her sleep over with them but I have to think of my daughter's safety first. 
Thank you for letting me rant about this. I don't know who to turn to for advise. I hope I can get some here. 


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think you are right to set groundrules concerning the dog. I would talk with your parents as well-maybe all sit down and come up with solutions. A dog that bites is like a loaded gun and provisions need to be clearly made as accidents can still happen.

I would check with user Rowdy Dogs on the forum as she has experience with the breed and may have some useful insights. I believe nipping is part of how cattle dogs work but it is certainly not acceptable with people.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

DaniRo said:


> I didn't like this answer I feel any dog especially being young still can be trained to like or behave around children.


It is very difficult, if not impossible, to teach a dog to LIKE something they really don't.

You can work on training a dog to behave around things they do not like but I wouldn't trust a dog that has bitten that many people (adults and children), regardless of how much training they have been through.

I would recommend insisting that the dog is crated, in a separate room, when your children are visiting.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I can understand why you wouldn't like the trainer's answer, but it is true. Not even people can be "trained" to like something they don't. I would keep my children away from this dog.


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## DaniRo (Jan 8, 2013)

Yes the dog is crated in a separate room with the door closed while children are in the house. I will never trust this dog ever!! Also the kids are put in a room with the door closed while the dog is let outside. In all the years of having dogs including when I was a kid I have never encountered a dog like her. So having one around now just seems awful. I know this breed lives about 15 years so it seems like a looooong time to have to deal with this behavior. 


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Nipping and mouthiness is definitely something that cattle dogs are known for. Biting is a really common problem in the breed as a result. I would suspect, just from knowing the breed (since there could be a lot of factors going on, I can't say for sure of course), that this is aggressive herding behavior rather than attempts to harm. Heelers are notoriously difficult to have around small children because they have extremely strong herding drive that kids tend to trigger, and they also have an aggressive herding style unlike some other herding breeds that may have more bite inhibition and a more "hands off" style. It doesn't take that hard of a bite to break skin and leave bruises, especially on a child. Heelers are also known for their "dog police" role--they tend to take it upon themselves to control and police the behavior of everyone in the house if not trained properly. It could also be that the dog is biting out of annoyance or as a correction for the kids, in its self-appointed role as police. Those are the two most common problems I've seen, rather than true aggression.

edit: sorry, my own red heeler was trying to get me to play and hit 'reply' for me. 

I think you're right to insist on muzzling and not let kids around the dog. Even if it isn't aggressive behavior (in the sense of the dog actually trying to harm kids), this is a big problem and I'm sure very traumatic for the children. One of the biggest rules responsible owners follow with herding breeds is never to let them herd or nip people. Your sister has screwed up here by letting it escalate to this point.

I do think the trainer's statement is true. Some dogs don't like kids, and that can't really be trained out (although a combination of proper management and desensitization can get the dog to tolerate kids if they're only visiting). However, if this is a herding or policing issue, then the dog can definitely learn not to do it. However, IME it is extremely important that the dog is given another job. These drives tend to be very strong in heelers, and if they're not given a job, they'll find one for themselves--and I can guarantee it won't be one you like.

That's all I really have time to write at the moment as I've got a training to head off to, but I'll try to either post again later or PM you some more information. Just wanted to confirm that this isn't an uncommon problem in the breed (I did ACD rescue for years and many of our dogs came in because of issues like this), that there is a lot you can do to fix it although there are never any guarantees with animals, and that you're right to be taking it seriously.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

And just to add, to be clear on terminology: ACD stands for Australian Cattle Dog, which is the formal name for red and blue heelers. All the same breed, just a few different terms for them.


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## DaniRo (Jan 8, 2013)

Thank you rowdydogs I appreciate your help with this topic. I have been trying to read up on this breed and it does say not good with small children. I asked my sister if she knew this before she bought her knowing there would be many kids around my parents house and she said she did. I just hope her going to training classes helps some with the situation. I want my parents to be with my children as much as possible. I am just very leery of this pup. 


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## DaniRo (Jan 8, 2013)

I don't want my relationship with my sister to be strained over this but her knowing this about the breed and not training her correctly from the get go makes me angry with her. The only reason she has taken her to training now is because I insisted it. 
I want to like this dog because she loves me to death when I'm at my parents but I can't help but remember her biting my daughter. I feel my sister got to much if a working breed she can handle. 


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Nipping and mouthiness is definitely something that cattle dogs are known for. Biting is a really common problem in the breed as a result.


This. I'd never trust a heeler around small kids unless raised around them from a puppy up, and even then, you're going to see nipping, biting, herding behavior. It's instinct. It's like trying to teach a Labrador to stop fetching things, or a Hound to stop using his nose to hunt rabbits.

Use a muzzle, separate and always supervise when the dog is loose with them. In fact, I'd never let the dog loose with them, get a leash and use the leash or the dog isn't with them, period.
The dog will bite them. Someone has to take control or it will continue. If it isn't your sister or parents, it has to be you.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Once again, a thread title is completely misleading lol. Not your fault OP, my aunt when she was a kid was bitten (not badly just a nip) and in retaliation she bit the dog's ear. So that was where my mind immediately went.

You are in a tough situation because the biting dog is not your dog. Also complicated by the fact that it is family, and you want to keep the peace. I wish you luck. Sorry, I wish I had advice for you. It sounds like you are doing what is needed to keep your kids safe and that is what is most important. I have a dog I do not trust around kids, so I take measures to ensure that he is never put in a situation with them.


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## DaniRo (Jan 8, 2013)

Thank you for your input. I will NOT let the dog near my or anyone's children. My sister and parents know how I feel about the pup. She is a very affectionate dog to me and most others. She isn't bad but just untrustworthy around children. She is very energetic and seems happy. 
Since my sister has taken her to training and has seen how well behaved other dogs are she seems to be very excited about taking her there. I told her maybe get her dog into agility training. I'm sure the dog will enjoy it. 
Thank you all again!! 


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## DaniRo (Jan 8, 2013)

@ Good Karma I just reread the thred topic I used lol It does sound misleading. Sorry about that 


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

DaniRo said:


> I didn't like this answer I feel any dog especially being young still can be trained to like or behave around children.


Lets ask the trainer to train you to be more sympathetic to a dog who probably isn't getting the mental and physical stimulation it needs.

I think its pretty obvious, dont want your kids bit ? Don't go over there.

There would be more problems if the trainer guaranteed he would LOOOVVVEEE children after.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Just some more thoughts now that I'm not just firing stuff off really quickly...if this is misdirected herding behavior, it's very likely that it's not something you're going to have to worry about for the lifetime of the dog, but only until your kids get old enough. It sounds like all the kids the dog has gone after are under 5? Young kids have high voices, lots of shrieking, laughing, fast movements, running...all things that make a herding dog want to herd! As they get older, the dog may not find them quite so enticing.

However I also missed that the dog has gone after two adult men. Another breed tendency is a strong sense of territory, and a tendency to not like "intruders." Again, this is a failure of training on your sister's part. ACDs need to be really carefully socialized from a young age to teach them that it is okay when people come over. Look at all the problems people have socializing GSDs as posted on this forum...and I can say with confidence that in my experience the average pet ACD is a lot worse than the average pet GSD in this category (and I'm not just talking about my charming Hector).

Part of the problem is that, at least in the US, there aren't really "pet" lines in heelers that I'm aware of. They're all working animals. Even the show lines generally maintain a great deal of working ability, and the difficult temperament that goes with it. Many people are not prepared for that.

The good news is that this all can probably be fixed if your sister gets serious about it. The dog may never be trustworthy around young kids, as many aren't, but if the kids are just visiting and your sister takes your concerns seriously by ensuring that the dog and children are kept separated, it isn't the end of the world. You say that you think that dealing with this for the lifetime of the dog sounds like too much work, but that's kind of up to your sister--I don't see how her decision to have to confine the dog during visits from children is any more work for you. FWIW, one of my dogs isn't trustworthy around kids and I routinely confine him when nieces/nephews/friends with kids visit, and it's really not a big deal at all. He's happier, everyone's safe, and life is good. We've even had kids stay for a week and I just made sure to give him plenty of exercise and attention separately, and life was good.

The biting adults is more serious to me, as it is unlikely (but not impossible) that it is herding behavior, based on what you've said. That may be aggression or fear reactivity and needs to be dealt with before it escalates.

Your sister needs to find a trainer who is experienced with these problems (if hers isn't) and get her butt in gear to fix them, in addition to giving the dog a job like I said (it can be anything from treibball to trick training to serious games of fetch to agility, as long as the dog gets plenty of mental and physical stimulation every day). It's only if your sister is unwilling to do that work that I'd recommend rehoming the dog right off the bat. And FWIW, I do agree with the poster above me that it would be more concerning if the trainer was saying that she could guarantee that the dog would be safe around kids, because some dogs just aren't. I mean, I've trained my bad-with-kids dog not to react immediately to kids if they, say, unexpectedly run up to us on a walk, but he's visibly uncomfortable in close quarters with them and it would be unfair to expect him to tolerate that. It's just like people, some adults hate kids too and you're not going to change that by forcing them to put up with them indefinitely. 

Let me know if you have any questions I can help you with. Because I've done rescue with the breed, I could also probably advise on some trainers or breed-specific resources as long as you're in the US, just let me know. I'll check this thread or you can PM me too.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

DaniRo said:


> Thank you rowdydogs I appreciate your help with this topic. I have been trying to read up on this breed and it does say not good with small children. I asked my sister if she knew this before she bought her knowing there would be many kids around my parents house and she said she did. I just hope her going to training classes helps some with the situation. I want my parents to be with my children as much as possible. I am just very leery of this pup.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App





DaniRo said:


> I don't want my relationship with my sister to be strained over this but her knowing this about the breed and not training her correctly from the get go makes me angry with her. The only reason she has taken her to training now is because I insisted it.
> I want to like this dog because she loves me to death when I'm at my parents but I can't help but remember her biting my daughter. I feel my sister got to much if a working breed she can handle.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App





angryrainbow said:


> *Lets ask the trainer to train you to be more sympathetic to a dog who probably isn't getting the mental and physical stimulation it needs*.
> 
> I think its pretty obvious, dont want your kids bit ? Don't go over there.
> 
> There would be more problems if the trainer guaranteed he would LOOOVVVEEE children after.


It looks like they did some research and they are not blaming the dog as much as they are the decisions of the sister. The sister was aware of the dogs needs, but until prodded, hadn't attempted any form of training.


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