# The heck with titles!



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

After a couple of years or so on this forum and listening to many arguments and theories, I've come to the conclusion titles don't mean much.

Less than stellar dogs can be trained to title or purchased titled.

Show me someone who knows the history of GSD's, a whole lot about bloodlines and pedigrees, and has a lot of experience working and training the GSD and that is where I would begin my search.

I have now seen too many dogs from titled parents that I don't like the temperament or look of.

I would sooner have a dog from someone who breeds for LEO work or Seeing Eye than a titled dog.

I'm not against titling or the training it takes, I just don't think it any longer tells you much


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I never understood why it was an either or type thought. 

Why not, if you are buying a dog, get it all? A knowledgeable breeder, input from others on the pedigree, hands on and eyes on as many of the dogs contributing to your pup as possible, and then the dogs having titles, or experiences in the real world. 

If a dog has a title and is no good, don't get a pup from it. Let the market vote. (well, the informed consumer) If it's a great dog, no title and no real world work, then don't support that practice, and those people will eventually be forced to follow their go-to behavior (basically either work harder, cheat, or quit). 

I think a title shows more about the people in some ways - either people who will short cut and cheat, or people who will put time into a dog - and if you can find a quality person, breeding and titling quality dogs in a way that matches your values, I think you are going to have a good experience.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

yeah, I'd rather give my hard earned $ to a breeder who sat on the internet and 'talked' pedigrees with others on forums, read books and magazines rather than spent hour upon hour training and then titling their dogs under impartial judges...

I'd also like to dump the whole SV system of testing for working ability, health, endurance and conformation and just go by my own opinion of my dog and breed any way I want and then charge people the same amount (or more) than those that do all of the above.

but that's just me ;-)


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I would sooner have a dog from someone who breeds for LEO work or Seeing Eye than a titled dog.
> 
> I'm not against titling or the training it takes, I just don't think it any longer tells you much


:thumbup: 100% in agreement on this.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

It wasn't meant to be an either or. If you can get a titled dog from the type of person I mentioned that's great. 

I just don't think it is necessary, and in and of itself, doesn't tell you much.

It can in fact make people think they are getting something they are not.
It means the parents were trained sufficiently to pass what is a dubious trial.

Sunflowers: If I told you what I thought of the popcorn icon I'd probably get banned.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

hey if it works for you then - lets face it, i know breeders that have dedicated their entire life to the betterement of the breed and more times than not to the detriment of themselves at least finacially and people have overlooked them to buy pups from someone with a neat website and have no more than a plan of breeding title to title or just have big, black, big, white, panda, blue....whatever.

as long as people will pay for a concept over a dog than breeders will fuel the fanatsy and take the bucks while 9 times out of 10 the customer will be happy, i mean how many people really want, need or can handle a top notch working prospect and the people that can pay the least and are the smallest market.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

No system is perfect. Sure there are holes in it....lots of them - especially in the WGSL dogs....the titles are part of what shows a potential puppy owner that this breeder has a serious interest in the breed, and is trying to breed better dogs. Some breeders put a very very high priority on the show ring, and the titles are almost a nuisance, so they just get them one way or another, and don't set much priority on them....other breeders base everything on titles...Both these mindsets are still better than the person who owns a dog on open papers and breeds it to make Christmas money! 

I agree that there are good dogs that are not titled...but to find them, and to really be able to judge their quality, the breeder still has to have a working knowledge of the ideal character and workability of the breed.... they still have to have experience that gives them insight into what they see in a dog who has not been titled...there are variables like SAR, LE, and other sport activities that give you another group of dogs who either have produced or participated in these venues.

This is not a black and white situation....there are too many variables...too many possibilities and too little opportunity for many people who want to be able to train and title a dog.

Lee


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that like NILIF can help the first-time shepherd owner, or the shepherd owner who has his first challenging dog, get some structured leadership that might help managing/controlling the dog, I think that a new buyer going with someone who titles, might do better than going with one who doesn't. 

After you have been around the block a few times, I think you can probably go with a breeder who fits the bill that you put together and come away with a very nice dog, titles or no titles. Titles on the parents does not guaranty that the pup will have solid nerves, be easy to train, will have the correct drives for what you want, and be adaptable enough to settle in the house easily. It may stack the deck in your favor, but if it were the case, then why bother titling your breeding stock if their sire and dam were titled? 

I think that titles say more about the owners than they do about the dogs. I think there are other things that can give you an even better indicator of what is within the litter, like successes that pups from the breeder's litters that are not the breeders dogs. How do siblings and half-siblings fare with their new owners?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I live in California and if you look up GSDs for sale or GSD breeders on the internet, there are hundreds here in this state.

Even if you eliminate the so called, dreaded BYB, there are hundreds that have titled dogs. Yep titled, health checked, Hips and elbows, contracts etc...

If titling was the end all for breed worthiness, then I should be able to go to the nearest one of these breeders and pick up my new puppy.

I'm not demeaning the time, money, training and work that goes into titling. 

I just don't think the titles themselves will tell you what your going to get.

Bloodlines, pedigrees, history and experience are of more value to me.

Since I don't know all that myself, I rely now on those who have that knowledge and experience.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jack's Dad.....I made this basic statement probably 5years ago on the forum and people tried to run me off the forum......my how I have seen some attitudes change. It's not an either or thing like you said....more people buy dogs based on websites and title than any other means except newspapers(and that is reversing as newspapers become obsolete), more SL dogs with titles than any other dogs, ( European), yet the pet component is probably stronger than the utility component, many many breeders of titled dogs couldn't tell you the overall traits of the parents much less the grandparents, which is essential to consistent quality breeding, and Lastly, the titles today have become so watered down that scores of titled dogs are genetic messes covered up by innovative training and expensive handlers. To not factor in these elements as being prevalent today is deluding oneself, and reflects the difficulty in people like law Enforcement having a hard time finding good dogs anymore. Sure there are still pockets of good breeders, but like Lee said in another thread....it takes knowledge and integrity. The sad part is that integrity may be just as important as knowledge these days......why? Because to many people today value what they like and what will sell as opposed to what is correct! I mean knowledgable breeders.....they have sold out to color, big heads, blue ribbons, peer pressure, over the top drives, yet they are are often titled so it validates them. Anyway, just my take....I could be off or maybe some of you see these things also ....either way it is what it is.....see ya !
Btw, this is my once a year rant.....won't offend anyone on this subject til next year....lol


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I can't disagree or agree with you, I understand your point and it's valid but throwing away titles is more of a "throw the baby out with the bath water" fix. Yes the system isn't perfect, but then again show me one that is. There has to be some sort of test or requirement, whether herding or Schutzhund or something else I personally like to see that the dog has done something other then just be a breeding machine piggybacking on the glory of the pedigree alone.

Delgado's father isn't titled, he's a police dog. Does the lacks of letters beside his name bother me, no. Why, his show ring is the street and his judges are the officers he works with each day. He works every day and proves his worth rather then just a few days a year. Doesn't make him any better or worse then others out there.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Titles mean a lot to the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into earning them. Of course I can see that they don't mean much when....they don't mean much, make sense? If you're not into training and earning titles, then why would they mean much? It's easy to claim they don't hold any weight or mean anything when you've never tried to earn one. They mean a lot to me but not the title itself, the hard work it represents and the dog's strengths and weaknesses they exposed along the way.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I am going in just the opposite direction. Titling a dog is a lot of work. As some one who is learning, hands on, the frustration and dedication that it takes to title a dog, I will not buy one from untitled parents. 

I will even go a step further; I want to see the parents of the pup compete and succeed at a very high level in the sport. Having witnessed the difference between club level, regional level and national level dogs, I will only buy my next pup from a breeder that is dedicated to selecting, training and performing to the highest level. How easy is it to buy a dog with a title or from titled parents and claim that you are producing working ability with out actually getting up and working your own dogs every day? Sorry, I have to see the dog work and see your dedication to working and proving your dogs against other high performing dogs before I reward you with my hard earned money by buying a pup from you.

You may say that training can cover up a lot of deficiencies; well my take on that is that if you are truly dedicated to performing at the top, and I see you taking your dogs that you bred to the top on a consistent basis, then I trust that you have the good sense to start with the best raw material possible. 

I trust the person who is actually in the trenches with their dogs more that I trust someone who tells me that their dogs are just as good because they have so and so in their pedigrees.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I will and have bought from untitled parents-but that has been the case of known working police dogs (who typically don't get sport titles) and SAR dogs with known working certifications. I would honestly like to see a solid temperament test and structural evaluation for dogs NOT working in schutuzhund or IPO and intended for breeding....that is a lot of good SAR and Police stock.

I would still value a breeder who, themselves, is dedicated putting titles on dogs though because they learn to know what is good and what is bad...only with experience with dogs to you learn how to "read" them and see what is good what is bad.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

robk said:


> I am going in just the opposite direction. Titling a dog is a lot of work. As some one who is learning, hands on, the frustration and dedication that it takes to title a dog, I will not buy one from untitled parents.
> 
> I will even go a step further; I want to see the parents of the pup compete and succeed at a very high level in the sport. Having witnessed the difference between club level, regional level and national level dogs, I will only buy my next pup from a breeder that is dedicated to selecting, training and performing to the highest level. How easy is it to buy a dog with a title or from titled parents and claim that you are producing working ability with out actually getting up and working your own dogs every day? Sorry, I have to see the dog work and see your dedication to working and proving your dogs against other high performing dogs before I reward you with my hard earned money by buying a pup from you.
> 
> ...


While I understand this concept because I too understand the difference in club dogs being bred and dogs who are ...... more....for lack of a better word....a pup from a National dog does not always make a National dog....and there is a great difference in teh dedication and ability to train to a top level. And there are probably 50 males to every female who goes to a National! Then you have females coming in heat to contend with....as happened at the last National...

Many people who trial and do well at a top level take dogs already started or titled...very few do it from baby puppies....it takes too long to do a puppy and puppies are not easy to raise properly. I know a few people, some pretty well, who do compete at that level, and understand the type and level of training it takes to get there. It is not the dog's genetics that are the cause of success there, it is the TRAINING that is the difference....sure, they start off with good dogs, better than club dogs in nerves, drives, trainability and hardness - and those things in a better balance than many dogs - but the same dog in other hands would NOT be a National dog! And a dog that a non competitive person has would be a National dog in the hands of the person who is competitive at a National level.....have been through this discussion with a couple of people who HAVE competed at the International level!!

Also, there are many dogs who have been in the top 10 at the BSP or Worlds who still did not produce well or at all....or were bred a bit, then sold off as they did not produce well....some of the best producers were in the middle of the pack at the big competitions.

Lee


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

robk said:


> I am going in just the opposite direction. Titling a dog is a lot of work. As some one who is learning, hands on, the frustration and dedication that it takes to title a dog, I will not buy one from untitled parents.
> 
> I will even go a step further; I want to see the parents of the pup compete and succeed at a very high level in the sport. Having witnessed the difference between club level, regional level and national level dogs, I will only buy my next pup from a breeder that is dedicated to selecting, training and performing to the highest level. How easy is it to buy a dog with a title or from titled parents and claim that you are producing working ability with out actually getting up and working your own dogs every day? Sorry, I have to see the dog work and see your dedication to working and proving your dogs against other high performing dogs before I reward you with my hard earned money by buying a pup from you.
> 
> ...


All this is exactly what I would've said. I'd love to see someone who titled their own dogs agree with you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I will only buy my next pup from a breeder that is dedicated to selecting, training and* performing to the highest level*.


And that takes time, money and travel. Not many breeders can leave their other dogs to go off to trial constantly.
I would rather see _what they've produced_ be the ones to excel....As long as the breeder is working/trialing, producing good dogs and their kennel name representation is showing up in many different venues(not just one sport but diverse, working in SAR, LE, etc) I would support that breeder easily. 
I wouldn't discount a breeder because they aren't competing in the nationals or world events.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Training does cover up deficiencies all the time....at a club level....dogs with serious deficiencies are not going to progress to higher level very often....or if they do, will do poorly...

The biggest hole in what you will look for is that most of the people who are competing at the higher levels do not compete with females...they may breed, and have females, but mostly the females are imported titled dogs purchased for the sole purpose of breeding....they do not raise pups from their male to train - they buy an older pup in Europe or a titled dog in Europe so they do not lose alot of time from competition 

I can only think of one competitor who has competed internationally with a male, and who has shown a female nationally that he breeds....LOL and she was in heat and out of control....he said he would never try to show a female at a high level again....he does not want to raise a pup and would rather buy a young dog to compete with...raising pups takes too long. At least two of his pups will be National level competition dogs because they are with National level people tho....

High caliber young dogs are rarely for sale here...anyone who has gotten a promising dog to 18 -24 months is going to continue themselves with the dog....thus so many of our top competitors go to Europe for a dog where they are more plentiful and dogs are considered more of a business than here.

Lee


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm not a breeder and not an expert in pedigrees. Just an average person who wanted a puppy to be a great family member and do Obedience work, who bought my first GSD puppy 3 years ago. 
I did look at pedigrees more to stay away from lines titled in areas that I thought would produce a dog with the type drive I didn't want. (please no one jump me here just saying what I did) 
What I looked at more was other dogs the parents had produced and the breeder had produced to see if they were the type dog I wanted, and that was what made my final decision.


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## Ocean (May 3, 2004)

In the big picture - titles are all important!

Imagine a world without the need for titling in the German system. Would you say the GSD breed would be better off?

I have purchased a dog before from an untitled bitch. The sire "only" had a Sch 1. The breeder had been in the breed for 25 years and put titles on 30 different dogs.

From an individual level, the importance of titles depends on a case by case basis. From a big picture perspective the GSD will go the way of the Dobie or the Rottie (in their American versions at least) if schutzhund titling and breed surveys become extinct or irrelevant. Heck, all the lines would go the way of the American show line GSD.

It is also the reason why integrity in the whole system is so important. Unfortunately, the current level of integrity in the system is not as high as it should be. Midnight trials, bought titles, etc., are corrupt. That does not mean the whole system is corrupt it just means that again the true worth of titles depends on a case by case basis.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Well, let's back up here. I don't really think I've seen anyone on here say that if you have a breeder who has working LEO or SAR dogs (or something similar) that that makes them a breeder to stay away from. Maybe a few random people and granted I'm not on here a whole lot, but I rarely see that sentiment. The only time I see people consistently saying "buyer beware" about people who do not title their dogs are also the ones that CLEARLY have no idea what they are doing: "Rex is a large, big boned German Shepherd who is loyal and has a great nose. He can find a tennis ball in any field, no matter how high the grass!"

There are plently of people I would buy a puppy from that don't have titled parents. And plenty of parents I wouldn't buy a puppy from despite the titles. Like others have said, it's not a foulproof method. And while I do agree to some extent that, if nothing else, competeing at higher levels generally can be a good indicator about the "quality" of dog, I've also seen quite a few higher level dogs I'm really not very impressed by.

I do think, if you are totally new and have no clue what you are doing, that you are more likely to get a good dog if you stick to those with titled or actual working parents (ie some kind of cert). It just stacks the deck in your favor. And let's be frank--most people are completely clueless in how to evaluate 2 parents!

I mean, I've never heard anyone on this forum say that every titled dog in the US automatically becomes breed worthy.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Titles mean a lot to the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into earning them. Of course I can see that they don't mean much when....they don't mean much, make sense? If you're not into training and earning titles, then why would they mean much? It's easy to claim they don't hold any weight or mean anything when you've never tried to earn one. They mean a lot to me but not the title itself, the hard work it represents and the dog's strengths and weaknesses they exposed along the way.


I agree 100% with this. You can't value a title until you're put your blood, sweat and tears into it. I for one am proud of every title or certification I earn with my dogs, as it is an accomplishment to my hard work and effort. As a newbie sport handler, this means even more to me. 



robk said:


> I trust the person who is actually in the trenches with their dogs more that I trust someone who tells me that their dogs are just as good because they have so and so in their pedigrees.


Absolutely agree with this 100%. Couldn't have said it better. I expect breeders to know pedigrees, bloodlines, important producers, etc - but unless you have trained for hours on end and gotten to know the dogs you're breeding, I have no interest in your dogs. I want to see breeders who are both knowledgeable, AND have gone through **** with their dogs not just to prove the dog's worth to the world - BUT TO THEMSELVES as the breeder. 

Pedigree knowledge alone will never be enough for me. I want those dogs worked, tested, pushed, trained before I make the decision to purchase their offspring. 

I personally wouldn't buy a puppy from untitled parents unless I knew the dogs personally and had very good knowledge of how they work in a training situation as well as their temperament in out in the world.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Never meant to offend anyone about the long hours and work that goes into training dogs in any venue. Blood sweat and tears, as someone put it.

Many of these people are in it for sport and as far as I know have no intention of becoming breeders. So of course they don't want their work to seem diminished.

That is not what I'm getting at. So I'll give an example. 

Lee as most of us know was injured in a traffic accident. If for some reason she couldn't physically resume training at high levels and didn't want someone else to do her training, would that lessen her ability to produce dogs like she did before? Even if she didn't title them.

Breeders get old like all of us. Do they lose their ability to produce GSDs the way they ought to be, because they know longer wish, or have the physical ability to do their own training.

On the flip side, does being young, enthusiastic about training and titling dogs mean you know anything about what dogs to put together for breeding?

If I had to choose a puppy it would not be from the last example.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Jack's Dad said:


> Lee as most of us know was injured in a traffic accident. If for some reason she couldn't physically resume training at high levels and didn't want someone else to do her training, would that lessen her ability to produce dogs like she did before? Even if she didn't title them.
> 
> Breeders get old like all of us. Do they lose their ability to produce GSDs the way they ought to be, because they know longer wish, or have the physical ability to do their own training.


Yes, actually it could diminish the actual ability to produce good dogs. People can get very "kennel" blind when decisions are solely based on their own opinions.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

Hmm, a bit annoying there is a couple of threads for the moment dealing with almost the same thing, titles, testing etc No, I wouldn´t mind buying a dog from untitled parents, but this doesn´t mean I haven´t seen the dog doing bitework for example, so untitled doesn´t mean untested. On the other hand most breeders that are serious working breeders would not be intressted to breed to a mediocre dog, titles or not, then of course there are breeders who use dogs I personnaly don´t think is so impressive, but for their goal they may be a good choice. Policedogs and such I don´t consider untitled because they must pass certifications and other tests.

More intressting question may be what a title really says, and more importantly how many of the popular titled dogs are really something to be impressed about, and what is impressive really? I wonder how many of both breeders and judges that really knows what is a genetically good dog and how much of this is really shown in a SCH-title? To breed dogs who mostly are good at high points in SCH seems not ideal, if not getting high points in SCH itself is what is conidered "work" and a goal in itself. But I guess just as showing dogs this is also the main goal for more than a few.

I may be wrong but I have the impression that what is considered a good dog in the GSD world would more be a mediocre one if comparing with some of the better malinois breeders. The better malinois seems to be able to deliver a flashy and powerfull SCH-performance but still be free of the frustration and more "stressed" behaviour that some of the GSDs show, don´t know if this is due to the fact the GSD in generall have less natural ability and hence are "made" more flashy with trainingmethods that also creates more stress and frustration to be able to get the speed and flash that is desired. Then again it becomes a question of how much is really naturall qualities and what is just man made "drives" that are not passed down to the offspring.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I'll read everything I can get my hands on. Books , magazines, new , archival , English or German script. 
I'll go to the trials see the dogs perform. 
I've done my time in the trenches in Ring and Schutzhund and other training . 
Then I'll spend the hours with my dogs critically analysing them . Presenting them for unbiased evaluation where a title or pedigree is never even looked at . Just show us the dog . Can do or won't do . Plain and simple , black and white.
Then those dogs go to service , at your Whitehouse, at the airports , border crossings, police departments, veterans with PTSD , SAR,
schools to calm children and help them focus reading or learning, tracking enthusiastics , and homes where people just want a solid stable dog . Those are my home-bred dogs representing generations of similar backgrounds , proven each and every generation. Oh by the way yes there are schutzhund dogs -- Basically the dog can do well with whatever opportunity is offered to them. my guarantee.

and then in the late hours or early hours I will share what I know , and at the same time benefit with information others post , including pedigrees of dogs they have found !


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Yes, Carmen, I think some of us are a bit OCD in our quest for knowledge.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> Lee as most of us know was injured in a traffic accident. If for some reason she couldn't physically resume training at high levels and didn't want someone else to do her training, would that lessen her ability to produce dogs like she did before? Even if she didn't title them.
> 
> Breeders get old like all of us. Do they lose their ability to produce GSDs the way they ought to be, because they know longer wish, or have the physical ability to do their own training.


As far as I know, Lee placed two (I think) of her prospects with others that are training them. Sorry but I've seen too many people selling dogs based on the laurels of generations past (not really on this forum, but on other dog forums with other breeds of dogs). You can usually get a pet store or puppy mill dog that has SchH titles and conformation ratings within 2-3 generations, or AKC CH if you're looking at another breed. So who do I trust? The person that's actually *doing* the stuff I'm interested in doing, plus my own observations of the dogs.

My issue is only with what people claim their dogs can do. I have no problems with people breeding untitled dogs or breeding dogs with the "wrong" sorts of titles as long as these people aren't telling me they are "suitable for police K9s" or "top SchH prospects". You would not believe how many people try to sell me a dog for flyball because their dog likes to neurotically chase after tennis balls...(actually that's the LAST thing I want in a flyball dog, a tennis ball obsession!).


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

> So who do I trust? The person that's actually *doing* the stuff I'm interested in doing, plus my own observations of the dogs.


Doing can be very important in some things. However if you look at horses, jockeys and trainers "do". Breeders know or should know. They don't need to ride the horse.

Race car drivers "do" and their input is important but it's engineers who know.

Lisa: I guess if Lee sat in a dark room and only spent time with her own dogs it could become kennel blindness but I don't think most people who have been involved for years would do that.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My comment was not about Lee, but a general statement.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Show me someone who knows the history of GSD's, a whole lot about bloodlines and pedigrees, and has a lot of experience working and training the GSD and that is where I would begin my search.


My guy came from a breeder just like this. We just found a heart murmur at his 7 month check up, he is nervy, and if I let him, would be fear aggressive (I think). I would rather have everything you described AND titles. But I also will never buy from a breeder who's dog's I haven't seen work (of all ages) and whom I don't know personally. Never again will I take someone's word on a website or let them blow smoke up my butt....knowledge of the breed and pedigrees alone is not enough. Talking the talk is NOT walking the walk. imo


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> It wasn't meant to be an either or. If you can get a titled dog from the type of person I mentioned that's great.
> 
> I just don't think it is necessary, and in and of itself, doesn't tell you much.
> .


You could say the same for your standards...anyone can learn a pedigree and talk about the breed....actions speak a heck of a lot louder than words. I want EVERYTHING, won't settle for less for my next pup


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Genuine question, have you ever titled a dog? If so, what sport and what titles? I try not to poo poo something I haven't tried myself.... :-D


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> My guy came from a breeder just like this. We just found a heart murmur at his 7 month check up, he is nervy, and if I let him, would be fear aggressive (I think). I would rather have everything you described AND titles. But I also will never buy from a breeder who's dog's I haven't seen work (of all ages) and whom I don't know personally. Never again will I take someone's word on a website or let them blow smoke up my butt....knowledge of the breed and pedigrees alone is not enough. Talking the talk is NOT walking the walk. imo


You are missing the point. Just because dogs are titled doesn't mean you can't get the same kind of puppy that you already got. Go back and read Cliff's post and maybe you will understand.

Regardless, if titles are all that meaning to you then let titles be your guide.

We have oodles of titled dogs breeding here in California, all you have to do is put your order in. Do you think these titled dogs are all equal?

 Lisa: Too bad, I thought you and Lee were going to get into it. I did another oops.


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## mehpenn (May 22, 2006)

I think it depends on the person and what they're looking for. 
I know titled dogs are more common in certain areas of the country, than in others. We have titled dogs in my state, very few in my actual area, and therefore the puppies they produce are more of a rare comodity. 

Working dogs, actual dogs that herd and protect flocks are even more rare. 

For me, I look more for obedience titles and certifications than Schutzhund titles... because I'm not looking for a protection dog of that caliber. I'm more likely looking for a good working dog that will double as a good addition to the family.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

DaniFani said:


> Genuine question, have you ever titled a dog? If so, what sport and what titles? I try not to poo poo something I haven't tried myself.... :-D


Genuine answer....NO. I'm a buyer not a breeder. I have no reason to title a dog. If I did it would be for sport not for breeding. 

Titling is supposed to tell you if a dog is breed worthy. I don't think in and of itself that it does. Lots of titled dogs should not be bred IMO.

Have you titled dogs? If so, do you plan to breed them? Genuine question.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> Genuine answer....NO. I'm a buyer not a breeder.* I have no reason to title a dog. * If I did it would be for sport not for breeding.
> 
> Titling is supposed to tell you if a dog is breed worthy. I don't think in and of itself that it does. Lots of titled dogs should not be bred IMO.
> 
> Have you titled dogs? If so, do you plan to breed them? Genuine question.


Well, along that opinion....wouldn't you as a puppy buyer want to showcase what the breeder you so carefully chose has produced? A way of doing that is by representing in trials or shows. When I look for a good breeder, I always am interested in what the breeder has previously produced, and if I can't find any information, then my decision may be to move on to another breeder who has dogs succeeding in many different venues. 
Titling is more than showing whether or not a dog is breedworthy. It is showing that the parents who produced that dog had the right genetics to bring out the best traits. Of course the handling/training plays into it bigtime!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> Genuine answer....NO. I'm a buyer not a breeder. I have no reason to title a dog. If I did it would be for sport not for breeding.
> 
> Titling is supposed to tell you if a dog is breed worthy. I don't think in and of itself that it does. Lots of titled dogs should not be bred IMO.
> 
> *Have you titled dogs? If so, do you plan to breed them?* Genuine question.


 
Ok, Ill bite on this one. I am in the process of titling a dog. Going through this process has revealed issues with him that I would have never knew were there just by looking at his pedigree. Even so, I might have still been willing to breed him until I witnessed a particular dog at the SE Regional championship that shifted my entire opinion of what a real working dog was capable of. Now I say to my self, why would I ever consider breeding this dog when I can potentialy buy a pup by a dog like that?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

If everyone said "forget about titles, lets just breed off of pedigree's." How long do you think it would take before the pedigrees of dogs we liked were so watered down that they didn't really contibute? Three? Five? Ten? Peolple can look at pedigrees and tell you about dogs because they have seen them work. They have seen them trial. So if that stops then people breed not knowing anything about the dogs and then what would we be left with? It's not all about the title. A lot of it is what you learn about the dog along the way. How it acts under certain stress's and pressure. Are there titled dogs that should not be bred? Sure, but there are far more un titled dogs that should not be bred. I think there are many parts to the equation. So to start elimination criteria is foolish.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Well, along that opinion....wouldn't you as a puppy buyer want to showcase what the breeder you so carefully chose has produced?


No.If the dog has a solid temperament and good health, strong nerves, then I'm a happy owner. I don't need to prove it to anyone.

We did agility with Jack and do agility with Zena for fun, not competition, although my wife is considering competition. Either dog could have done schutzhund probably but I have no desire to do that.

My dogs backgrounds have titles up the wazoo but I didn't buy them for their titles.

Dani Fani... I looked up your first posts and this is your first GSD. The breeder you got your pup from is definitely not what I'm talking about.

I would have run from that breeder.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

It's so easy to say that my dog could probably do Schutzhund. What is hard is getting up and doing the work and actually putting that title on your dog. When you try is when you learn what your dog can and can't do.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> No.If the dog has a solid temperament and good health, strong nerves, then I'm a happy owner. I don't need to prove it to anyone.
> 
> We did agility with Jack and do agility with Zena for fun, not competition, although my wife is considering competition. Either dog could have done schutzhund probably but I have no desire to do that.
> 
> My dogs backgrounds have titles up the wazoo but I didn't buy them for their titles.


you missed my point.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Well - I have five youngsters out with other people training because I cannot. They will all get titles...and I see videos or the dogs in person....

I also have 2 others I would like to use in breeding that are not titled....but have been worked by world level competitiors/trainers....one is in CA and I have alot of feedback on him....due to CA dog laws, he may come back here and I will do what I can to get him titled...his owner travels alot for work and after the first year just could not make the training committment - the other is a female that I see, have trained in AKC and IPO, and she had had protection work in several places on several people....I know what she is....with her age, she needs to be bred, title or no....when highly regarded trainers say - this dog is world potential and that dog can V protection at the nationals...then that is not being kennel blind! 

I don't name drop here....I add to my opinion those 7 or 8 people who have worked both these dogs - not just in protection but in tracking and obedience on various fields - whether they are breed worthy ...... I don't make a practice of breeding untitled dogs....but circumstances are not good for me to get these guys titled....as was mentioned, I was in a car wreck and still am seriously compromised...there is no good training closer than 200 miles....and heck, the one dog is in CA yet...

I have trained and titled the families of these dogs....but sometimes, there are just uncontrollable circumstances...does not mean that I will breed lots of untitled dogs but that there are exceptions now and then with good reason......there is a difference in someone breeding untitled dogs routinely, and one who breeds one occasionally.

Lee


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> If everyone said "forget about titles, lets just breed off of pedigree's." How long do you think it would take before the pedigrees of dogs we liked were so watered down that they didn't really contibute? Three? Five? Ten? Peolple can look at pedigrees and tell you about dogs because they have seen them work. They have seen them trial. So if that stops then people breed not knowing anything about the dogs and then what would we be left with? It's not all about the title. A lot of it is what you learn about the dog along the way. How it acts under certain stress's and pressure. Are there titled dogs that should not be bred? Sure, but there are far more un titled dogs that should not be bred. I think there are many parts to the equation. So to start elimination criteria is foolish.


I understand what you are saying but I think really good temperament and nerve tests along with health would be far better for the future of the GSD breed.

I don't care about how well a dog can learn a routine as much as I care about the character, nerve and temperament. If those are good to excellent then the dog should achieve in whatever is put before it to do.

Isn't that what the breed is supposed to be, able to do many things well.

RobK: I meant that based on many generations of pedigrees and titles my dogs should be able to do schutzhund but it doesn't matter if I'm not interested in doing that. for one thing I would have to drive about 100 miles to do something I'm not that interested in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Andy, how did you choose your breeder(s)?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> I understand what you are saying but I think really good temperament and nerve tests along with health would be far better for the future of the GSD breed.
> 
> I don't care about how well a dog can learn a routine as much as I care about the character, nerve and temperament. If those are good to excellent then the dog should achieve in whatever is put before it to do.
> 
> ...


Yes, health, good temperment and nerve are what we need to be looking at. But how can you tell if the dog has good nerve and temperment? By working towards titles. Again I don't think the title says as much about the dog as the training behind the title. Working the dog through many different stressfull situations to really see what it's made of. You can't see that by a pedigree or just living day to day life with it.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Genuine answer....NO. I'm a buyer not a breeder. I have no reason to title a dog. If I did it would be for sport not for breeding.
> 
> Titling is supposed to tell you if a dog is breed worthy. I don't think in and of itself that it does. Lots of titled dogs should not be bred IMO.
> 
> Have you titled dogs? If so, do you plan to breed them? Genuine question.


I am currently titling that male I spoke of. No intention of breeding(he is not a good candidate for breeding), I am in it for love of the sport. I disagree that the sport, sch, agility, or any other, is necessarily "just to determine breed-ability." They are fun things for owners to do with their dogs. In a perfect world people with dogs like mine, would acknowledge they are in it just for sport, and that no matter how much we train to "cover up" his flaws, he will never be bred. 

As far as what I want in my "ideal" next dog (now that I know about the sports and breeding etc), see my last post...I want it ALL...not titles alone, not pedigree alone, not a smart breeder alone, not dogs I haven't seen worked....the pup will come from all these things AND I will get to know the breeder for awhile before I purchase. I will never take buying a puppy lightly.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> I don't care about how well a dog can learn a routine as much as I care about the character, nerve and temperament.


Me too, but the best way I can test character, nerve, and temperament are actually training and proving the dog in a variety of venues. 

I will say from experience that usually my assessment of my own dog going into a new activity is not entirely accurate after a year or more of actually doing that activity. I've never been way off base but each time I learn a lot more about his strengths and weaknesses, and not only him but what kinds of dogs I'm interested in owning or possibly breeding in the future. So for me, being new to breeding and relatively new to the breed, training and titling is crucial. No one is born knowing how to read a German Shepherd just by looking at a pedigree and/or spending 5 minutes with the dog. You talk about breeders that have enough experience to do so...where do you think that experience came from, just petting their GSDs all day and not doing anything with them? I have put off breeding my dog until I feel that I can more accurately asses his strengths and weaknesses and how they will interact with a variety of pedigrees (or at least until I have found what I believe to be sufficient mentors to help me with the latter).


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> Dani Fani... I looked up your first posts and this is your first GSD. The breeder you got your pup from is definitely not what I'm talking about.
> 
> I would have run from that breeder.


Yes, and I should of...but I, like so many others with their first dog, got the dog, then researched, and now I have learned my lesson...it's pretty common. Sadly, MANY people buy from her because she brags about everything you talk about. Her dogs COME from champion pedigrees, but HER dogs are not titled...the grandparents and great-grandparents were, she's a dog trainer, and spews a LOT of knowledge on pedigrees and knowledge of working dogs. She has a LOT of knowledge about the dogs, but she buys puppies from breeders that do all the hard work, doesn't prove the breed-worthiness of her dogs, breeds them, and rides on the coat tails of the grandparents accomplishments and the other breeders hard work....it's common and I hate it. lol


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Also, without titles or some sort of certification, how do we know the breeders dogs are solid? Because they said so? The used car salesman said that the car he sold me was solid and it was a pos. Unless it's a breeder I have gotten to know pretty well or one that I have seen produce dogs I like then I can't just take thier word for it. At least with titles on the dogs you know they have some sort of workability and nerve.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this " We just found a heart murmur at his 7 month check up, he is nervy, and if I let him, would be fear aggressive (I think)." has nothing to do with titles .
this should have been detected on the first vet exam before leaving the breeders place, or by the new owner if they chose to have their vet exam the pup within an agreed upon discovery time -- or before 7 months. If nothing had been detected then perhaps the heart trouble is not congenital but acquired . Problems can occur if the dog has had some great bacterial infection, or is lacking in nutrition through low value food or heavy duty parasite load .
Go back to that breeder and discuss your health guarantee !!
Jacks Dad - there are two Lee's -- Wolfstraum Lee and Hanrahan who is a new to schutzhund - 2008 so still has many many years ahead for experience .


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Way back I didn't choose by any rational reason. I had a really great one that I got for fifty bucks. Pure luck, she was one of the best dogs ever.

Another was gifted to me.

I had others but getting to where I really got interested, I researched the internet. Looked at tons of sites that all looked like clones. I kept going back to one. Why? Her interest was the German Shepherd dog and what they should be. She has years of experience and was a helper at the international level. But it was her passion for the breed that made me choose her. Once again I guess I got lucky. That is where I got Jack and I can't say enough but to thank her for what she produces.

Zena I got after numerous references from those more experienced than I and she is turning out great. I was a little worried when I first got her because I compared her to Jack. When I quit doing that (thanks to Cliff) I found a really wonderful girl. Likes people and other dogs but territorial about property and family. So is Jack.

Since then I have learned a lot and believe with some experienced help I could get what i want without titles.

My first choice would be Jack's breeder but if that couldn't happen I still believe I would do fine.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So pedigree's and what the breeder produced previously wasn't part of the decision? What lines are your dogs? You never post pictures!! LOL


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If you know your history of the breed in America, there were many top breeders in the forties, fifties, and sixties, that produced awful nice dogs in the states. Most police and military dogs of that era were not imports, no SCH in the country, agility, and dogs from AKC champions and successful breeders of show dogs that produced dogs for services for blind, military, and police. Fact!
I'm really trying to reconcile this occurrence with learning you can't produce good dogs without extensive training or pedigree knowledge......actually in those days the possibility of getting a very good dog from the newspaper was greater, IMO, than many websites. I'm not advocating going back to those days because we have messed up the genetics of the breed so much ( with adherence to titles), that you need titles to try to make your point about what is needed. This probably doesn't make sense to many, but some understand what I am saying. Anyway, the greatest utility dog that ever lived, IMO, can only be bred in specializations these days. So all of you are right in what it takes for specialization, and few know what a true utility dog is anymore which is what the breed should be. Just an obsolete opinion.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Thanks Cliff, for reminding us of the past. We often need to be dreminded that a good dog is a good dog regardless of his pedigree or titles. It is what can he do that makes him who he is.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Cliff, I agree with you. But I think the specialization is a problem with more than just dogs in this country. 

One if my favorite saying is " German Shepherds are best at nothing and second best at everything". 

We forget the true utility if the dog and start breeding extremes for the things we want to do. We end up with a dog can maybe do one thing great. 

The showlines/ extreme prey schutzhund lines/ no drive pets. Why can't we have a dog that does it all. And why are we not looking for breeders that aim for that as well. 

I get tired if being told my new boy won't be "flashy" enough for Schutzhund. Since when is Schutzhund about flash? Since it became a sport based on flash and points and not as much about evaluating soundness, temperament, power and drive. 

When we put so much weight into titles, without looking at the entirety of the dog, we do a disservice to the breed. Titles or true working experience should be only 1 part if what we look for when looking for a puppy. Or when looking to breed. 

Dogs that compete at the top levels of SchH are good dogs or have great trainers, but somewhere along the way, IMHO, it has stopped being an evaluation if the breed worthiness of the dog, and become a flashy sport where people get hung up on points for things like " not finishing quick" or a " slight crooked sit" Neither of these things make a dog not worth breeding, they just make them lose points. 

That said, you can use titles as a starting point. But it can't be the only thing that is looked at. A good breeder looks at the WHOLE dog, and an educated buyer does the same. 

I have gotten 2 dogs from fully titled parents, and 2 dogs from dams that were not titled but sire was. All if my dogs are amazing. They are what I thought they would be. Whether it worked out in the long run for what I had planned for them is a different story. But I have been very happy with each dog I have had the priveledge to own. 

With my most recent pup ( 9 weeks old tomorrow) I have no idea if he is going to work in SchH or as a FEMA USAR dog. And when talking to his breeder I told her " he may not excel at Schutzhund, he may not make it in SAR, so while that's my plan, at the end if it all he will be my pet. I want a dog that is fun in the work, stable in new situations, and that I can work and enjoy, no matter what titles we make it to" 

The titling tells the breeder about the dog, but even without the titling, it's still the same dog. The titling itself does not make the dog breed worthy. It just makes the breeder aware if the faults and strength if each dog. It is then up to the breeder to make a good choice in regards to mates. 

Ok. Think I have rambled enough. 




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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> So all of you are right in what it takes for specialization, and few know what a true utility dog is anymore which is what the breed should be. Just an obsolete opinion.


Well I can only speak for myself but I make every effort to enter my GSDs in pretty much every sport, working, show, and performance venue I have access to (and can afford, it's usually the finances that hold me back from trying another thing and/or earning more titles faster, not the dog). You don't even have to have the best of the best GSD to have fun and be respectably successful in many venues. But then people say we shouldn't bother because a GSD is not a dog for agility, flyball, etc and those things don't really count when assessing the working abilities of the dog.... My next puppy has not even been conceived yet and I'm already scheming all the stuff I'm going to try with him! (oh and he's hopefully from a show/work cross breeding, another big no-no!) There are many people that cross-train and compete with their GSDs but a lot of these dogs never get any interest or breedings because the owners are busy training and competing rather than campaigning for VA ratings and then people say these dogs don't exist.... I've met some really cool GSDs with a slew of titles in all sorts of things but they just don't have the *right* titles.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There should be a difference in expectations for the uses of the breed in owners and breeders. 98% of owners do not look at this situation the same as breeders. Nor should they have to.
A breeder should be knowledgable about history, uses, training and genetics of the dog....an owner should only need to be a competent dog owner.....big difference!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think the owner should also be knowledgeable about training, genetics of the dog they have....It is a benefit the dog. Power in knowledge. 
If I was able to know Onyx's pedigree, I'd be able to better understand why she is who she is.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The reason that German Shepherds that are bred in America generally suck is because of our history of saying "hey my dog is just as good as your dog but I am not going to waist my time trying to prove it before I breed it." If you are a breeder who is producing proven working ability (whether or not you work your own dogs); good for you. However, the vast majority of Americans are too lazy to get out there and work their dogs and are so arrogant they think they don't have too. Why do you think so many people still have to keep going back to Germany, Czech Republic and Holland to find working stock? 

This is the thing that really pisses me off; People are so quick to criticize the efforts of other people when so many of don't put forth any effort of their own. I have a friend who is a breeder. When I look at the pedigrees of his dogs, I think "what in the world is this mess?" They just look like a hodgepodge of various lines. However, he gets up every day and works his dogs, he titles his dogs, He is very dedicated. He health checks his dogs. He has no website. He just puts a sign out by the road when ever he has pups on the ground. If I posted his pedigrees on here he would be ridiculed, but at least he is getting out there and putting some effort into working his dogs before he breeds them. That is more than I can say for most breeders here in America. So yes, titles mean something to me. They mean the breeder is putting forth some effort and the dog has accomplished something before it is bred.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Titles mean something to those who actually went through the process of achieving them. For someone who has not been there or not done it to criticize these titles and what they mean to the people and dogs who worked hard to earn them frankly should not have gotten the courtesy of 6 pages of replies! 

P.S. it was only AFTER I titled my dog that I decided NOT to breed him. Before I went through the process I thought wow what a confident outgoing, sociable, healthy dog I have. So what if half of his pedigree is pet lines - the product is right here in front of me! People at the local park were literally asking me to "save a spot" for them if I decide to breed him. IPO training exposed many flaws that I did not see before and I am much more educated now than I was previously. I shudder at the thought of breeding him and yet he's titled. In other words, I learned to leave it to the professionals! This current system is not perfect, but it's better than the AKC system - a very strict system indeed. To breed and register your litter both parents MUST be AKC registered. Yea, that works much better than IPO / AD / Breed Survey to determine breed worthiness 

In other words, it was training for IPO that showed me what lies underneath the tip of the iceberg


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Titles mean something to those who actually went through the process of achieving them. For someone who has not been there or not done it to criticize these titles and what they mean to the people and dogs who worked hard to earn them frankly should not have gotten the courtesy of 6 pages of replies!
> 
> P.S. it was only AFTER I titled my dog that I decided NOT to breed him. Before I went through the process I thought wow what a confident outgoing, sociable, healthy dog I have. So what if half of his pedigree is pet lines - the product is right here in front of me! People at the local park were literally asking me to "save a spot" for them if I decide to breed him. IPO training exposed many flaws that I did not see before and I am much more educated now than I was previously. I shudder at the thought of breeding him and yet he's titled. In other words, I learned to leave it to the professionals! This current system is not perfect, but it's better than the AKC system - a very strict system indeed. To breed and register your litter both parents MUST be AKC registered. Yea, that works much better than IPO / AD / Breed Survey to determine breed worthiness
> 
> In other words, it was training for IPO that showed me what lies underneath the tip of the iceberg


I agree


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

robk said:


> However, he gets up every day and works his dogs, he titles his dogs, He is very dedicated. He health checks his dogs. He has no website. He just puts a sign out by the road when ever he has pups on the ground. If I posted his pedigrees on here he would be ridiculed, but at least he is getting out there and putting some effort into working his dogs before he breeds them. That is more than I can say for most breeders here in America. So yes, titles mean something to me. They mean the breeder is putting forth some effort and the dog has accomplished something before it is bred.


There is more than just titles involved though. My breeder was a working SAR handler. She never titled her dogs but was out there every single day working her dogs in all kinds of situations. More than once I have taken flack for having gone to a BYB because the dogs were not titled. My dogs sire was certified air-scent and Cadaver. Their dam was also a certified working SAR dog. To me that means more than any title on the planet. People are too quick to judge, oh you didn't pay a fortune, your dogs ancestors weren't titled... you didn't go to a kennel. They aren't AKC. (Mine are UKC) Well then you must have gone to a BYB. Your dogs aren't worth crap. Well yes, yes they are. I got exactly what I was looking for. Great tempered, furry family members with few health issues at an affordable price.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

This was never about IPO as a sport or people working their dogs hard day and night.

It was a simple statement about a title making a dog breed worthy. 

It doesn't IMO. Doesn't mean it's not either.

I'll bet 80% or more of GS owners don't know whether schutzhund is salad dressing or a dog sport. Even more do not participate.

All the dog sports are great and people working their dogs in any of them is wonderful.

As an owner/buyer I want a dog with good solid nerves, temperament and health and I don't care if his/her parents are titled.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> This was never about IPO as a sport or people working their dogs hard day and night.
> 
> It was a simple statement about a title making a dog breed worthy.
> 
> It doesn't IMO.


What makes a dog breed worthy is what a breeder/buyer is looking for. So if a breeder/buyer is looking for titles it does in fact help make a dog breed worthy. If a breeder/buyer is looking for other things then maybe not so much. It's all about demand. Some want it some don't. For the average pet owner I'd say titles probably don't mean much. I know for me I could care less about titles. I want healthy, good tempered dogs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> What makes a dog breed worthy is what a breeder/buyer is looking for. So if a breeder/buyer is looking for titles it does in fact help make a dog breed worthy. If a breeder/buyer is looking for other things then maybe not so much. It's all about demand. Some want it some don't. For the average pet owner I'd say titles probably don't mean much. I know for me I could care less about titles. I want healthy, good tempered dogs.


You're kidding..so if a buyer wants just a "pet" does that mean they should go to the pet store?


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## Rangers-mom (Jan 28, 2013)

Well, I am not an expert on GSD's by any stretch of the imagination, but I am so happy to have my Seeing Eye GSD. I know that the Seeing Eye kept close track of his breeding and that they were looking for the things that are most important to me. They were looking for a smart, healthy, completely non-aggressive dog. How could I beat that when I want a family pet? Ranger may not win any beauty contest, but he is a purebred GSD with the best chance of having the qualities that make him a great family pet. -JMHO, nothing against those who want dogs that are titled. I totally respect their interest and hard work. I just think there are far more people like me - people who want a great family pet and no more. For those people breeding for temperament and health is the most important thing.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

How does one breed for temperment, if temperment is never tested? A title (or certification for true working dogs) is a temperment test.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> You're kidding..so if a buyer wants just a "pet" does that mean they should go to the pet store?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I didn't say that at all. However why should I pay a fortune to have titled dogs when that is not what I'm looking for? Personally I advocate rescue. However that is a personal decision.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> How does one breed for temperment, if temperment is never tested? A title (or certification for true working dogs) is a temperment test.


Then how do shelters and rescues manage to do it ? They certainly don't go title a dog.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> Then how do shelters and rescues manage to do it ? They certainly don't go title a dog.


Well lets not get started on rescues and shelters exmaples of temperment test. I have worked with rescues and shelters and rescued the majority of dogs I have owned. Not even close to the same thing. I thought we were talking about breed worthiness. So shelter and rescue dogs should not be in this conversation.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

shepherdmom said:


> Then how do shelters and rescues manage to do it ? They certainly don't go title a dog.


They don't breed them either. An adult dog pretty much is who he is. What you see is what you get. We are talking about breeding, judging how a dog will produce.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> How does one breed for temperment, if temperment is never tested? A title (or certification for true working dogs) is a temperment test.


You breed for it through lines that have it and know what to match it with to keep other positives along with it.

Do you think titled dogs don't ever produce nerve bags. Others in this thread have stated that they learned what was wrong with their dogs in the process of titling them. they realized that their dogs would not be good for breeding.

For each person who realizes they don't have a dog that should be bred, how many don't care? They have their title and are going to breed even if the dog lacks in some areas.

In a previous thread I suggested that maybe SDA or PSA would be better tests of nerve but was told by someone in schutzhund that gunshots and other things used in those sports could easily be trained around, on most dogs by the right trainer.

So no matter what the sport if you are successfully training around nerve issues then what does that tell us. 
Not that the dog will be a producer of dogs with good nerves but that the dog had an excellent trainer and was able to be titled.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> Not even close to the same thing. I thought we were talking about breed worthiness. So shelter and rescue dogs should not be in this conversation.


You said "How does one breed for temperament, if temperament is never tested" I just gave you another example of how temperament can be tested. 

The majority of the people don't do sports with their dog so why is the standard for breed worthiness something that most people don't do and could care less about?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

For the integrity of the breed effort must be made to maintain the working ability of the breed.


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## Rangers-mom (Jan 28, 2013)

Mycobraracr, titling or certification is not the only way to breed for temperament. As a Seeing Eye puppy raiser I had to fill out a temperament form about Ranger on a regular basis. They wanted to know all sorts of things about his behavior so that they could decide whether he would be good for breeding. He has a really good temperament except that he is afraid of grates and bridges. That was it. They took him back to the Seeing Eye, checked whether he was afraid of grates and when he was they dropped him. They neutered him so he wouldn't pass on those traits.

Other than being afraid of grates and bridges he is really great - calm, sweet, easygoing, good with all people...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Breeding for temperament is all relative, though, I doubt anyone here will disagree. My idea of a good GSD is not really what I think of as calm, sweet, good with all people... I also need to test the dog's courage, suspicion, how he responds to stress (from me, from the environment, and from others like physical threats), is the drive level maintained when stress is introduced, protectiveness, etc.


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## Rangers-mom (Jan 28, 2013)

Liesje, that is a good point. I have absolutely no desire to have a dog that isn't sweet and doesn't like all people. That said I really doubt that Ranger would sit around and give google eyes to someone who was hurting any member of our family. He seems pretty protective.


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Working ability? or sporting ability. Two different things really when you talk about breeding for certain things, particularly if taken to the extreme. I don't need a top schutzhund prospect because I'm a novice and may not even be in a position to do that 'sport'. GSDs were bred to be herding dogs and THAT I CAN do in my area. I looked at the current dogs of the breeder I'm interested in and also some of the progeny to see what areas they had an aptitude for. I didn't choose her because of schutzhund. I chose her because her dogs (and progency) seemed balanced and able to do all kinds of things: tracking, herding, obedience, agility, therapy and service work, SAR, and even police k9s...and yes, there were also schutzhund dogs in there as well, both currently and in the past.

I believe in working ability and titles, just not necessarily sporting ones.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Breeding for temperament is all relative, though, I doubt anyone here will disagree. My idea of a good GSD is not really what I think of as calm, sweet, good with all people... I also need to test the dog's courage, suspicion, how he responds to stress (from me, from the environment, and from others like physical threats), is the drive level maintained when stress is introduced, protectiveness, etc.


A very strict test for nerve and temperament for puppies. Also dogs considered for breeding should not be all that difficult.

I want to know how a puppy or dog acts in its natural state as opposed to what it can be trained to do. Example, how does a puppy/dog act when it is startled....gun shots, something dropped near it, very close traffic, motorcycle, scary individual and on and on.

Varied tests so they can't really be trained for.

Part of the problem is we don't all agree on what the breed should be.

Some people like high drive over the top sport dogs but some of those dogs or their puppies will wind up in pet homes with people who can't handle them.

Same goes for some really sweet dogs that are scared of their shadow.
They too will end up in pet homes that may or may not be able to deal with them. 

There is nothing wrong with different levels of drive and different personalities but IMO they all should be confident and free from serious nerve problems and be able to settle in the home.

All venues of sport or hobby will tell you something about the character of the dog in front of you but it won't tell you what it will produce. As Lee said there are many other factors.


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## KristiM (Oct 18, 2011)

I really think buying a puppy is a gamble either way. The question you have to ask yourself, is what kind of breeder do you want to support with your money? For me, it's one that puts work into their dogs and _knows_ their dogs like only someone who works them can know.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

People who work their dogs in sport(IPO), seem to be getting just as thin skinned and defensive as show people. I have not seen anybody say that titles were bad or not worth the effort put into them....nobody!! But titles are not a guarantee of good breeding no matter how mad you get, how twisted you make it, or how hard you work. Some people that title dogs are good breeders, many breeders are experienced people that have trained in younger years and now are using training experience with breed experience. Some breeders have a feel for the art just like any other vocation. Most training people DON'T breed and have the largest opinions on breeding...lol......there are good breeders that come from all of these different venues, and there are dunces in all of them....nobody is saying training isn't of value to owner and dog.....but breeding requires a different mindset than training....just like playing requires a different mindset than coaching.....sometimes they mesh, but many time they don't, and real quality breeders know this.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

A true working dog breeder will closely monitor numerous tangibles and intangibles with their program. Bloodlines, health, structure, development, longevity, environmental stability, nerve, amount and level of various drives, and so on. 

How the dog reacts in training, and later in work deployment will tell a lot about some of the intangibles: Performance, endurance, resiliency, how the dogs mature, "trainability", etc.

Do titles tell a story? Perhaps they *may*, depending on the examination of titles within the big picture. I have seen sport dogs that were "titled" that knew nothing of the program they were "titled" in. I have seen dogs that were "titled" that barely passed the evaluation...but sometimes these are the better dogs for what I like (not always what other people like)...the dog that has the fortitude to bring real fight to the man, may not necessarily be the cleanest, "sportiest" dog on the "out"...might just be the better dog. 

I have seen some dogs that have never seen a competition field, but have performed as Police Dogs, or personal protection dogs that were as "real" as it gets. 

Most sports, or work venues for that matter have a hard time replicating ALL the aspects of a "total dog" as it may be referred to as, but the question remains: what is the total dog in my eyes, is not the same as the next individual's interpretation.

The question I have always had is this: Does the fact that a given dog, on a given day, passed a given evaluation, magically make it breedworthy the day after the trial, but not breedworthy the day before the trial? 

For the record: I am certainly NOT anti-title...I just feel it has to be taken into consideration within the context of the totality of the circumstances that embody the "total dog".


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> Doing can be very important in some things. However if you look at horses, jockeys and trainers "do". Breeders know or should know. They don't need to ride the horse.
> 
> Race car drivers "do" and their input is important but it's engineers who know.


I would have to disagree with this. If I had a nickel for every time I heard an engineer say that something worked on the computer/simulator/theory, I'd be a rich girl.

The best is an engineer who actually works with his designs. 
You mentioned horses - racing owners don't decide for themselves what horses to breed. The main part of that decision is done by their trainer/breeding expert/etc. They rely on the people who do have firsthand knowledge of riding and racing to know what bloodlines to cross.

The car engineers may work out designs through models and simulations but no car goes on the road until it is driven on the track.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

actually simulation has gotten so good if testing doesn't match the theory it is usually something in the production/manufacture that has gone wrong not the theory.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

My experience has most definitely NOT been that exhibiting your animals in whatever venue prevents kennel blindness. Seems to me that in many cases, it helps create it.

But that's me with my cynical, somewhat bitter POV


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

let's say a dog comes from a long line of titled dogs. to me that would
indicate my pup is capable of the samething no matter what arena i want
to train my dog in. titles show me that my dog can be whatever i want him 
to be. earning a title has a lot to do with who owns the dog.

i have friends that have pound specials that do all of sorts of things.
their dogs can do all sorts of things on command. so is it the dog or 
the owner of dog doing what's necessary to have
a well trained and highly socialized dog ?


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

seems titles are a dual edge sword, only a complete newb would be impressed by titles alone and not know the context/history of how the the titles were obtained or what they mean for a specific mating combination. same could be said about hip elbow scores i guess, i mean is it not possible to have a good x-ray for one pup in the litter and there may be a long line of hd??

i truly thank the working titling system on average for making on average a pool of good working dogs to choose and breed from, even tho many in that pool may or not be individually titled.

on the other hand i puke on people that breed for show titles in a working breed and people that send their dog away to be titled - paper/made title just so they can tick the box that the dog is proven as breedworthy cos it has a title.

this breed more than any the emphasis is entirely on the buyer to sort the poo from the clay to get the dog they want.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The German Shepherd Dog was created to be a utilitarian working dog. They were to protect our homes and yet be a companion to our children, the dog for sentry or the military, the police dog, custom’s dog, the dog tracking the bad guys or finding the lost hiker. They also were to tend our flocks and then protect that flock and its shepherd. The traits that made them good for these things also made them the ideal dogs for service work and to be leader dogs. No extremes, no specialization, the jack of all trades. 

To breed for one area is to neglect the others. To concentrate on only one area of work is really no better than those that breed for flash in sport, beauty in the show ring or even just for pets. The German Shepherd Dog was not created to do JUST SAR or HRD, just do sport, just trot around a ring, to just find drugs, or just do protection work. They definitely were not created to just do rally, agility or flyball (no matter how fun they are for the handler). 

SchH, HGH and, I believe DPO/WPO (for the police dogs) were developed to help test and preserve our breed’s versatility. Just because the system has been bastardized does not change this fact. No breeder worth their salt bases their breeding decisions strictly on titles, but those titles do have some value or we wouldn't still be importing the majority of our working dogs.


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## Walperstyle (Nov 20, 2012)

I called my dog 'Cookie Von Chomp'nstein' ....deal with it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

lhczth said:


> The German Shepherd Dog was created to be a utilitarian working dog. They were to protect our homes and yet be a companion to our children, the dog for sentry or the military, the police dog, custom’s dog, the dog tracking the bad guys or finding the lost hiker. They also were to tend our flocks and then protect that flock and its shepherd. The traits that made them good for these things also made them the ideal dogs for service work and to be leader dogs. No extremes, no specialization, the jack of all trades.
> 
> To breed for one area is to neglect the others. To concentrate on only one area of work is really no better than those that breed for flash in sport, beauty in the show ring or even just for pets. The German Shepherd Dog was not created to do JUST SAR or HRD, just do sport, just trot around a ring, to just find drugs, or just do protection work. They definitely were not created to just do rally, agility or flyball (no matter how fun they are for the handler).
> 
> SchH, HGH and, I believe DPO/WPO (for the police dogs) were developed to help test and preserve our breed’s versatility. Just because the system has been bastardized does not change this fact. No breeder worth their salt bases their breeding decisions strictly on titles, but those titles do have some value or we wouldn't still be importing the majority of our working dogs.


:thumbup:


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

why is the states STILL importing so many dogs?? seems odd to me, how many times does the US need to harvest euro for the best genes and still be importing and not exporting?? not a dig, i always found this hard to account for. a ddr breeder i remeber once said that the biggest mistake in the ddr program was letting good breeding stock go to the states - what does that mean??


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Dogs are a commodity in Europe...many people raise youngsters for the sole purpose of selling them as green dogs....police departments want to buy from brokers who guarantee the potential ability and soundness...Brokers buy up young dogs for resale and the dogs are raised to be cash income ... not someone's beloved puppy

Breeders here sell puppies - if they hold onto a youngster or two, they either keep it or sell for sport for more money than many PD budgets have available...or the PDs do not want to buy dogs one by one from random individuals and prefer to deal with known brokers...

Secondary, I think, is that the quantity and quality of dogs here is not consistent and breedings that would produce LE dogs too random....there are really not that many working line breeders when you look at the big picture...breedings are often done without careful consideration of the complimentary and compensatory qualities of the breeding pair, etc...all things we have talked about before....A few dozen people breeding for LE dogs are not going to produce the numbers that the LE market needs accross the whole US.

As far as sport dogs, most really competitive people want a known quantity, not a puppy....takes too long to raise a pup and see what you have - ability, health etc....it is easier and quicker to get over to Europe and buy a green dog prospect which has some foundation and hips/elbows done already...

Lee


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

makes sense sort of, the demand is definately in the states tho surely???, one of the of the big US brokers said of course he would rather buy more dogs in the states but to fill contracts he if forced to go to euro every year a few times a year. 

Lee this may sound like a conspiracy but i heard that some germans will make a lesser dog in the litter the most famous and not campain the better dog (but keep it and breed it themselves) and soon as the lesser dog gets big titles it sold to the states and gets bred by everyman to any female just because it is new and famous and has a great title, then sold on again to make room for the next big thing and so it goes, does this sound far-fetched to you??


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

btw if yr wondering where i get this stuff from simple - pdb - that is the wild west of forums, i was going to join but that place scares me.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

carmspack said:


> this " We just found a heart murmur at his 7 month check up, he is nervy, and if I let him, would be fear aggressive (I think)." has nothing to do with titles .
> this should have been detected on the first vet exam before leaving the breeders place, or by the new owner if they chose to have their vet exam the pup within an agreed upon discovery time -- or before 7 months. If nothing had been detected then perhaps the heart trouble is not congenital but acquired . Problems can occur if the dog has had some great bacterial infection, or is lacking in nutrition through low value food or heavy duty parasite load .
> Go back to that breeder and discuss your health guarantee !!
> Jacks Dad - there are two Lee's -- Wolfstraum Lee and Hanrahan who is a new to schutzhund - 2008 so still has many many years ahead for experience .


The fam and I went out of town for a couple days, so I don't know if you'll even see this response, but to what you said....

I am assuming the heart murmur is what you are talking about having nothing to do with titles? Well, of course not, I was speaking more about his nerviness and softness. And a heart murmur is not always caught on the first or even second vet exams....my boy saw a different vet for his first sets of shots and puppy check up, with no mention of a heart murmur. His current vet "thought" he heard a murmur when my GSD was all excited (listened and heard it twice) and couldn't hear it when he was calmed down. It is not a stretch by any means that a murmur could be missed by a vet. My dog has had all his vaccines on time and no "great bacterial" infections. He is also on a high value food (NutriSource).

And I did talk to his breeder, she offered to take him back and refund our money...I don't think so, we are attached and love him, it's my fault I didn't go to a breeder who knew more and tested more. I called her to find out if she had anything like this happen before and to keep her abreast of the situation.

Furthermore, I train with a former president of the United Schutzhund Clubs of America, and a world team handler. He has evaluated my dog and believes he is nervy with "not much there" as far as genetics go. But, I am not getting a new dog, and I will work my dog until he appears to lose interest (not having any fun). Like I said, I got him before I knew what sch/ipo even was. Now I know, but I love our pet dearly, so we will sport for fun and our next dog will be harder with the cards stacked in his favor as far as genes go.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Titles mean something to those who actually went through the process of achieving them. For someone who has not been there or not done it to criticize these titles and what they mean to the people and dogs who worked hard to earn them frankly should not have gotten the courtesy of 6 pages of replies!
> 
> P.S. it was only AFTER I titled my dog that I decided NOT to breed him. Before I went through the process I thought wow what a confident outgoing, sociable, healthy dog I have. So what if half of his pedigree is pet lines - the product is right here in front of me! People at the local park were literally asking me to "save a spot" for them if I decide to breed him. IPO training exposed many flaws that I did not see before and I am much more educated now than I was previously. I shudder at the thought of breeding him and yet he's titled. In other words, I learned to leave it to the professionals! This current system is not perfect, but it's better than the AKC system - a very strict system indeed. To breed and register your litter both parents MUST be AKC registered. Yea, that works much better than IPO / AD / Breed Survey to determine breed worthiness
> 
> In other words, it was training for IPO that showed me what lies underneath the tip of the iceberg


Nicely said, I was just stopped at the beach with my dog yesterday by a couple. They were commenting on our "gorgeous gsd," how they have never seen a more well behaved dog (honestly he only did an extended down/stay while my child,husband, and I, ran in the water) and asking if we ever planned on breeding him and if we could exchange numbers as they were looking, I smiled, thanked them, and said no puppies would ever be in his future. Before sch/ipo and this forum I may have considered it, who knows. I love my dog, but he would add nothing to better the breed.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Jack's Dad said:


> I'll bet 80% or more of GS owners don't know whether schutzhund is salad dressing or a dog sport.


This made me laugh out loud!!! I am totally stealing it!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good posts Lisa and Lee.....Excellent post Tim Connell.....nothing is absolute and many mind sets based on things thirty years ago have shifted dramatically. The Malinois is the number one LE dog these days and most of them do not come from titled dogs.....but then again they don't have a large show following so people primarily breed this dog for vocation. It still all comes down to what the breeder is breeding for as opposed to what titles the dog has...jmo!
Not saying we should breed GS as Malinois, lets not get it twisted, but I am saying that as Lisa pointed out, the test devised to evaluate the breed made three areas important....if breeders are not breeding for strength in all of those areas then what does that say?????


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i have a bottle of Schutzhund dressing imported from Germany.



Jack's Dad said:


> I'll bet 80% or more of GS owners don't know whether schutzhund is salad dressing or a dog sport.





DaniFani said:


> This made me laugh out loud!!! I am totally stealing it!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

x11 said:


> makes sense sort of, the demand is definately in the states tho surely???, one of the of the big US brokers said of course he would rather buy more dogs in the states but to fill contracts he if forced to go to euro every year a few times a year.
> 
> Lee this may sound like a conspiracy but i heard that some germans will make a lesser dog in the litter the most famous and not campain the better dog (but keep it and breed it themselves) and soon as the lesser dog gets big titles it sold to the states and gets bred by everyman to any female just because it is new and famous and has a great title, then sold on again to make room for the next big thing and so it goes, does this sound far-fetched to you??


There is demand in the states, of course, and there are breeders who cater more to that market - BUT look at our demographics! We have probably about 300-400 training clubs (combined USCA, WDA, DVG and hey, throw in the ring and PSA too) in the US which is bigger than Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Czech, Slovika, Finland, Sweden etc combined....some states, like Texas, have 4 or 5 clubs and are as big or bigger than 3 of those countries combined - where there will be dozens of clubs. New York - same deal, higher population and what 8 or 10 clubs in the whole state? Population density is lower probably in Texas - but still - you get the idea. Dog sport is much more common in Europe, the standards of breeding are higher and, of course, all breeders are breeding to the European standard. 

At 8 weeks old - no one can tell which dog is going to be the BSP winner!!! Several BSP winners have come here - they all have their own stories, which filter down through the grapevine....and seriously, the BSP winners are not always the best breeding dogs and when they prove this, they move on! Many of the more highly used dogs are not even BSP participants - just looked up the new "hot" dogs in the US - Drago and Bomber.....nope...not in BSP according to the working-dog.eu site info...

I don't believe that any of the popular German kennels are going to send their most promising pup to the US.....some will send what I think is probably the worst one (a club member got 2 pups from a very famous German kennel - 1st had HD, 2nd/replacement a nervebag), but as some people make connections, they can get a decent pup from Europe....especially if they have a track record of titles and competition as the breeder wants to showcase his kennel to more potential buyers...I have imported some pups for others, and have gotten very good pups....Were they the best in the litter? Don't know - but they are definitely good quality, and are already started on titles. 

Lee

PS X11 - the PDB is a cesspool IMO - too many crazies, too many games, too many people who talk to themselves with multiple identities


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

> I don't believe that any of the popular German kennels are going to send their most promising pup to the US.....some will send what I think is probably the worst one (a club member got 2 pups from a very famous German kennel - 1st had HD, 2nd/replacement a nervebag),


 

Surely the parents of the HD puppy and its nervebag replacement weren't titled. 

After much research I found out that schutzhund is actually an old German folk dance. :crazy:


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Surely the parents of the HD puppy and its nervebag replacement weren't titled.
> 
> After much research I found out that schutzhund is actually an old German folk dance. :crazy:


They sure were titled...the dam was a top producer for the kennel...the replacement was a granddaughter of hers....the sires were both KKL and Sch3 and pretty well known....the sire of the 1st pup did end up producing quite a few HD pups, and he was pretty much phased out of breeding within a few years...I had wanted to import a female bred to him, but he was "not available" by then....so the owners knew and stopped offering him. I did not like the pedigree on the nervy pup, but yes, most people would have said it was very nice....I am sure she was the least promising pup in the litter.

Lee


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

I say don't throw the baby out with the bath water. 

Are there dogs who have titles that suck? Absolutely! I have had the unfortunate experiences of meeting those dogs first hand. The amount of shame and disappointment I feel for the person at the end of the leash is insurmountable when I find out the dog has been or is being bred. I just cannot understand why someone can hold the leash of a dog hiding behind them demonstrating severe anxiety and stress, can turn around and breed that dog. 

But at the other end of the spectrum, I have met some absolutely phenomenal dogs, that have nothing behind them, or very little. 

I think it all depends on the individual breeder and is a case by case basis. Those who know what to look for, know what they want, and know what they are looking at, will succeed in finding the dog they want, or breeding the dog they want.

But what one person considers "knowing" I may consider a complete newb. For others they may consider someone a newbie when another considers them an expert. It is all in the eyes of the beholder. 

So where do you draw the line between an irresponsible breeding practice, and a responsible breeder? 
Everyone's opinion will vary. 

I am sure some people may think I am silly for what I choose to do with my dogs. I live with a pack of 10 dogs in my house. I fund everything with these dogs on my sole income from my training and behavior modification business. I am limited by budget when it comes to traveling the United States to see the trainers I want to see, and do the things I want to do with my dogs. I WANT so bad to put an HGH on my male. Will I ever do that? Probably not unless I happen upon a ridiculous amount of money and I can live on the east coast for a while. Technically I could pay to have him sent off and be titled. But what value is that to me? Someone else learning the ins and outs of my dog while I am left with secondhand information about it? No! I will do things with my dog, even if it means not getting a title, so I can learn more about him and what his limits, weaknesses and strengths are. Others are willing to send their dogs off to get titles and receive them back and trust the word of the trainers they sent them to and begin breeding. One has titles, the other doesn't, which breeder has a better understanding of their dogs?

I have multiple schutzhund clubs at my finger tips within 10 minute drive, up to 4 hours away. However what one might consider good helper work, another will consider garbage. I have high standards for my dogs. I have a very clear understanding of what I want to train my dog like, how I want to get there, and what sort of helper work I want to see. This means that sometimes to find the helper *I* want, I would have to travel the 4 hours, instead of compromising the work I want and driving 10 minutes.

I think that in Germany when you have clubs at every corner, titling a dog comes faster, easier, and costs quite a bit less. They also humanize dogs quite a bit less than in America. A German friend of mine asked another friend of mine, why it takes Americans until a dog is 3+ to get a SchH1 on the dog when Germans get it done just before or as the dog is turning 2. The reply was, because America doesn't have clubs at every corner. There are 10 garbage trainers for every 1 decent trainer. Trials require traveling sometimes across the country (which is MASSIVE compared to Germany) just to put one title on a dog. To compare America to Germany adhering to the SV standard is unfair at best. 

The SV system there works much better because they have the resources to do what it is intended. In America, you can find yourself in a midwest state without a club for 10+ hours. If someone wants to breed their German Shepherd and preserve working ability, do they now have to move to an area JUST so they can title their dogs in schutzhund to breed? How reasonable is that? 

If someone chooses to work their dog in other venues and proves their worthiness under different judges, even if it isn't schutzhund, who am I to judge?

I would faster buy a dog with multiple titles in multiple venues that I have watched work in person and enjoyed their work, then I would a dog with only a SchH3 who was a great schutzhund dog, but was incapable of doing other venues.

It really is in the eye of the beholder. There will never be an agreement on what is the official right way to do things. Quite honestly I am very hung up and disappointed in a very well known breeder who actually breeds nothing but titled, breed surveyed dogs. But I wouldn't take a dog from that program if someone paid me. Yet I have bought dogs from an untitled parent before. Because it was about the dog.. not the title. I know what I see in the dog, and a title won't change any part of that. 

Other people actually respect that program and recommend their dogs. 

So I guess all this is to say, for me personally, it is not about the titles, but about the background of the breeder and the ways they choose to test their dogs and challenge them to find their strengths and weaknesses. Some people do it differently than others, whether by choice, or by no other choice.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

There are a lot of clubs in Germany because they need them. Not all of the clubs are good and some people drive an hour or so to train even there. They have more dedication to titling because they must. Breeding in the USA is easy. We have no standards other than the dog be from AKC registered parents (and even that isn't needed). There is no real motivation to create clubs, train dogs and have trials. We only have clubs because of those who enjoy SchH as sport and a few who still follow an old system


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

Welcome to America... land of the free..


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

i find this thread educational if you can look past the emotion and strong feelings.


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## björn (Mar 5, 2011)

It´s nothing wrong with titles, the question is if it really tells you everything you need to evaluate the working potential of a breeding GSD, especially if specific traits like super prey drive and optimum ability for obedience is more important than qualities that may be more usefull for a allround working GSD like a dual policedog. Many times people also seems to think certian dogs are very impressive, but for others they really are not that impressive, so how should judge what is good or not?

I think the better malinois in SCH and better GSDs are not so different, but if the goal is to be as spectacular as the better mals in SCH, I think many so called good GSDs are a step behind when it comes to doing a flashy powerfull protectionwork and doing this without a nutty frustrated look. Seems the better malionois can do this without whining and acting so frustarted like some of the GSDs.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

bjorn, give it time and popularity and whatever problems are in the gsd breed will become so in the mal breed, like evry other working breed that has been touched by the foul hand of the akc.

the only thing that might save mals is that they may not be as pretty looking to as many folks as the gsd is.

the rot from what i can tell is when working dogs become a distinct breed and a standard is written then all the germs come out and infect. 

lets face it anyone serious about a true wroking dog, treats titles and peds as nothing more than mildly interesting. a broker commented that when he gets his shipping crates returned the ped is usually still stuck to them cos the owner didn't bother enough to remove it and file it??


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

x11, I think your argument is as old as the breed itself. 

Phylax Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

haha, but does that make it invalid. 

considering the gsd is one of the younger true breeds that isn't a version of an existing breed eg an american eskimo dog or an old breed that only became a breed as late as the 70's when the akc said it was one, eg border collie - and gee hasn't the breed benefited by becoming a breed, how many FCI DS's are there compared to just mutt dutch dogs in service work.

what actual evidence have you got to show that a standard has actually improved a anything in a working dog other than give it a marketting focus eg a breed name and the licence to overbreed and vague pronouncements that this dog is better than that one because it conforms to the standard as that idiot from cruffts said to the world.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

But don't you find it funny that even in the earliest founding days of the breed, people were fighting like this? Obviously, people are the problem. But without people the breed wouldn't exist. So...hmm...whaddaya say?


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Titles mean something. They mean someone put in the time to train the dog and the dog can walk, jump, and bark, and bite a sleeve. 

I'm much more up to speed on malinois pedigrees, but I know exactly the type of malinois I want for my next dog and I plan to fly to Europe to pick up a pup. I also think titling is not the end all be all. If the dam is health tested, I meet her and she is solid with good temperament, high drive, (etc). Fine. I personally don't care if she is titled. 

The male- to qualify for a stud- should be an exceptional male. I expect him to be titled to the highest level of his "sport" whatever that may be (french ring is what I'm looking at). 

And I would certainly consider an untitled male who was a working police dog or SAR dog or even skijor dog. As long as he had a solid pedigree, was health tested, and I saw him work/met the dog and knew he was what I wanted.

I plan to get my female malinois to a BH- because I like the challenge. Beyond that schutzhund isn't really what I want to spend my time on. The only reason I'd continue is because she so enjoys protection work... and the obedience help from the club is great. But tracking doesn't interest me.

So, if she health checks out, gets her BH, and shows good drives, solid nerves, and excels at skijoring and detection work- does that mean she is unfit for breeding because she is not titled? Personally, I don't think so. I think it is important to have some objective way to evaluate a dog. I think health checks area must. 

I also strongly believe that the "nerves" of our shepherds are important. I don't believe shepherds should be bred for agility, for example. So that is not the "breed test". Or the breeding goal. They can do agility- but that should not be the breeding goal. Shepherds should be "able" to do schutzhund work, but if they are not titled, it does not mean they are not "able".


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

> The question I have always had is this: Does the fact that a given dog, on a given day, passed a given evaluation, magically make it breedworthy the day after the trial, but not breedworthy the day before the trial?


I really liked Tim Connel's whole post but particularly the above quote.

All in all it has been a very educational thread for me. I appreciate the amount of very knowledgeable people who shared their views. 

The differences are what makes me think, and not stay stagnant.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yup!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, then the "heck with" olympic medal for the fastest runner...he may loose a race the following day and therefore doesn't deserve the one earned previously.

There's two arguments going on here "what is a real GSD" AND what do titles prove.

IMO the first argument seriously waters down the following arguments wrt titles.

As another poster wisely pointed out specialization is the issue here.

Did Max von Stephanitz really envision what I've heard people here refer to as 'prey monster' sport dogs? Did he envision a 'no blood no glory' patrol dog with a lot of 'fight' that won't out?** ..or dogs that only look good in conformation show ring? From the reading I've done, I doubt it.

Titles are important, even in this messed up world where we humans have tendancy to extremes, it's starting point for selective breeding. Genetics is always a gamble and titles are only a part, but still an integral part, of the process of selective breeding.

There is no such thing as perfection in the animals or the process but that shouldn't lead one to declare 'heck with titles'.

(**a very respected and experienced trainer I was working with last year used to help some of the local K9 LEOs as a decoy, he quit because the dogs weren't outing and beating the tar out of him, unnecessary force. He said one of these days that is going to cause some problems..)


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

gwenhwyfair:

Does an olympic medalist produce better ,healthier smarter, more stable children because of his/her medal.

For the umteenth time I never said titles were bad or had no value.

I said ( a title *its self* does not mean a dog is breed worthy.

No more than a gold medal at the olympics means that individual will produce better children after their medal.

Dogs or people will produce what they produce no matter what labels or titles they have or don't have.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

So if titles don't matter as a way to choose breeding partners, how would you choose dogs for breeding? Who would test, and how would it be decided who does the testing? Or would there be no testing at all?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Andy, I agree with what you & Cliff have said, both in this thread & elsewhere. IMO, titles are much like health testing. They can be invaluable or they can actually obfuscate issues a dog has that impact its breed worthiness. Nothing takes the place of puppy buyers thoroughly assessing what they want & need, why a particular type does or doesn't suit them & which breeders can best provide that. Titles can be a part of that process. For many of us they don't need to be.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

ehhh You started this thread with a declaritive statement:

*"The heck with titles <exclamation point>"*

Then you hilight comments in the thread that support that point of view and those comments are of the 'if then else' type of logic.

Then when someone says "hey but titles do matter!" They are the ones being black and white? Nope they're responding to your argument.

You do some backpedaling but you're trying shove a lot of angels on the head of that pin.

Let's just flip this around then, no one has said titles are the end all be all of the mission to protect/preserve/improve the breed either, so what's the point here then?

Another problem is to defend that POV you are having to impute a dismissive attitude onto breeders who do put the efforts in to title dogs.

So.....it's all really circular and most of the comments here are driven by some sort of bias. 

It can be a bias driven by profit, it can be a bias driven by personal experience, it can be a bias driven by laziness.

So I'm going to admit my bias here...I'm with RobK on this. I tend to put more stock in people who work their dogs and try to *earn *titles or care enough to work with others who can help them earn titles.

The reason I have this POV is because I see a lot of people who won't get their behinds off the sofa and go do something with their dogs (of any breed really). Breeders who are willing to put in that effort deserve a boost in reputation, if you work hard you should be rewarded, they are setting a better example overall.

One other point, on the GSD and working dogs in general and what people think they should be. We as a society don't use dogs the way our great grandparents did. Dogs had to earn their keep by doing a job but with industrialization a lot of THAT selective breeding has fallen to the wayside. That's just the reality so what we end up with is a free market system that selectively breeds for 'styles' of dogs. I don't know if that is a good thing or not but it is the framework that we all are working in. That muddies the whole 'heck with titles (??) concept from the get go.

For my part I'm hoping to get a workingline pup next year for IPO and I will be putting breeders who title their dogs on the short list because it is another important step in stacking the genetic odds in my favor AND the breeder will be equipped to pick the right pup/temperament for what I want to do.



Jack's Dad said:


> gwenhwyfair:
> 
> Does an olympic medalist produce better ,healthier smarter, more stable children because of his/her medal.
> 
> ...


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> gwenhwyfair:
> 
> Does an olympic medalist produce better ,healthier smarter, more stable children because of his/her medal.
> 
> ...


Yes, actually, an Olympic medalist would have a better than average chance to produce better, healthier, smarter, more stable children _*IF *_part of the medal process includes examination of the genealogy of the athlete in question, in depth testing of the athlete's past, current and future health (basically the absence or presence of health markers pointing to past and future conditions), mental status of the athlete, the athlete's family history regarding mental functioning as well as academic success and so on. Oh, and the potential mate for the Olympic medalist has to go through the same scrutiny!

Come on, parsing so closely indicates purposeful obtuseness! Only the uninformed would insist that a title in some venue is the _*only*_ way to test a dog's breed worthiness. Good Lord, some of the worst examples of the breed have been German imports with a ScH I title slapped on with bubble gum and toilet paper and then sold to some dummy in the U.S. who sees nothing but that title and the word "IMPORT". 
Sheilah


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Andaka said:


> So if titles don't matter as a way to choose breeding partners, how would you choose dogs for breeding? Who would test, and how would it be decided who does the testing? Or would there be no testing at all?


For me personally it is all about temperament with emphasis on nerve testing.

I don't care how hard a dog can bite if they are not safe at home.

Temperament testing along with health testing. Health tests are all ready available but not always provided.

There are temperament tests available but some are questionable.

A strong nerve test as puppies and tested again prior to breeding.

Some breeders already do puppy testing but if there is no outsider to view it then you are taking their word for it.

So if the powers to be can require a title supposedly for proof that a dog is breed worthy then it should be easy to require a temperament/nerve test.

It's wishful thinking though. Things would be in an uproar if your dog titled in IPO or show but couldn't pass a nerve test. 

Nerves, temperament, health first and foremost and then titles of any kind will only add to the value of an already stable dog.

Extremists in any venue won't like the idea.

The pet/companion market which is far and away the largest market for GSDs deserves stable dogs with good health and nerves. It also would serve the breed as a whole well.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I wasn't going to go there, glad you did!



sit said:


> Yes, actually, an Olympic medalist would have a better than average chance to produce better, healthier, smarter, more stable children _*IF *_part of the medal process includes examination of the genealogy of the athlete in question, in depth testing of the athlete's past, current and future health (basically the absence or presence of health markers pointing to past and future conditions), mental status of the athlete, the athlete's family history regarding mental functioning as well as academic success and so on. Oh, and the potential mate for the Olympic medalist has to go through the same scrutiny!
> 
> Come on, parsing so closely indicates purposeful obtuseness! Only the uninformed would insist that a title in some venue is the _*only*_ way to test a dog's breed worthiness. Good Lord, some of the worst examples of the breed have been German imports with a ScH I title slapped on with bubble gum and toilet paper and then sold to some dummy in the U.S. who sees nothing but that title and the word "IMPORT".
> Sheilah


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

so well said Gwenhwyfair!! 

Jack's Dad...Temperament and nerve testing...?? Do you know anything about Schutzhund? 

Personally, I don't understand what people think they are paying for when they fork out $1500+ to a breeder who does not title...that's a **** of a profit IMO!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> Jack's Dad...Temperament and nerve testing...?? Do you know anything about Schutzhund?


A little expansion of this thought...what do you do with all the dog breeds that don't have an SV requirement like the GSD does? Do those dogs not need titles? Or why is a UDX, UD, CDX, CD, or whatever other AKC title that dog might've achieved enough to breed that dog but not enough to breed a GSD?

But yes...I would love to see an SV type system in the United States where a SchH1 or at least a herding title in necessary to breed a GSD. I just wanted to add that to the discussion. Why doesn't a UDX tell you enough about a dog's temperament where as a SchH1 does?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

What testing venue does that as methodically and objectively (as is possible in our subjective world)?

What would make that testing more bullet proof then other titles when it comes to puppies and outcomes?

You opened a real pandora's box here.

I know you don't mean anything bad but you end up making different arguments and I'm just wondering why?

Breeders who breed for sport/LE often have pups in the litter that aren't high drive and make good companion dogs. They sell those pups for companions.






Jack's Dad said:


> For me personally it is all about temperament with emphasis on* nerve testing*.
> 
> I don't care how hard a dog can bite if they are not safe at home.
> 
> ...


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

first, because AKC obedience titles are not breed, or type specific. Our breeds are not all the same and if a toy poodle can get a UDX then it is not breed worthy as a GSD. (hope that makes sense?)


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

It does make sense.

If the emphasis is to make all dog breeds primarily laid back companion dogs then the only differences will be in the appearance, coat colors and size?

Is that the level of differentiation we want to use and what does it say about what makes one breed different from another?



UnlimitedGSD said:


> first, because AKC obedience titles are not breed, or type specific. Our breeds are not all the same and if a toy poodle can get a UDX then it is not breed worthy as a GSD. (hope that makes sense?)


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> so well said Gwenhwyfair!!
> 
> Jack's Dad...Temperament and nerve testing...?? Do you know anything about Schutzhund?
> 
> Personally, I don't understand what people think they are paying for when they fork out $1500+ to a breeder who does not title...that's a **** of a profit IMO!


You never saw dogs who titled that had less than stellar nerves. Come on.

I am retired and have reached the geriatric stage so I can't possibly keep up with all you enlightened GS folks. Sorry if I'm obtuse and lack quick, and perceptive intellect.

I have my two stable WL GSds at home and they will probably be my last so in all honesty if the GS breed goes to **** in a hand basket with weak nerves, fearful reactivity and lousy hips, it really won't affect me. 

So thanks for the input and keep doing what your doing.


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

I wrote a little article for my website:

GSD or Shih-Tzu?

Without describing how they look, what is the difference between a Shih-Tzu and a German Shepherd Dog? Both belong to the same family (canis familiaris) both have tails, both have the same number of legs, eyes, ears etc…. Both have fur, both bark, both have teeth, both are companions for humans…

So what is the difference…..?

What should come to mind are things like courage, good nerves, intelligence & working ability. German Shepherd Dogs can herd (tend livestock), they are police dogs, guide dogs, military K9s etc… We don't see Shih-Tzus doing these things because even if they were a larger breed, they don't posses the right temperament and traits to accomplish these tasks.

So how do we keep the German Shepherd from turning into a giant Shih-Tzu? We breed dogs that posses the traits that allow them to accomplish these tasks. Testing breeding stock is not only important to someone buying a puppy, it is also important to preserving the breed.

It can't just look like a German Shepherd - it has to BE a German Shepherd!


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## UnlimitedGSD (Oct 16, 2012)

you know where I see weak nerves? The American Showline Shepherd! 
Fire a gun at a specialty conformation show and they'd probably all poop themselves. But those breeders think their dogs are 'all that and a bag of chips'.... 

SchH may not be perfect - but it's head and tails better than nothing!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

You're making an argument to perfection.

No one is saying the titling = always the perfect dog.

Selective breeding is part science and part art but it does create more consistent results- It is what delivered to us Canis lupus familiaris to begin with, afterall.





Jack's Dad said:


> You never saw dogs who titled that had less than stellar nerves. Come on.
> 
> I am retired and have reached the geriatric stage so I can't possibly keep up with all you enlightened GS folks. Sorry if I'm obtuse and lack quick, and perceptive intellect.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

..also Jack's Dad, you sound like you are a very nice man who loves and cares for his dogs.

Your points in this thread...not so good, but that doesn't imply anything bad about your intellect or you as a person.

You have the right to want a pleasant GSD as a companion and there will always be those variants in the breed to fill that need.

I have a goal to title my dog(s) in IPO someday so I'll be seeking an individual dog with a different temperament and will go to a breeder who will best be able to help me reach my goals.

...and that breeder will have pups sometimes that are better for LE and pups that are more laid back and hopefully the pup that will be just right for me.

It's all good.

Please have a good day.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> ..also Jack's Dad, you sound like you are a very nice man who loves and cares for his dogs.
> 
> Your points in this thread...not so good, but that doesn't imply anything bad about your intellect or you as a person.
> 
> ...


 Wasn't going to respond but your opinion of the value of my posts is not really important.

Somehow you and unlimited seem to think I'm wanting to dumb down the breed to make it palatable pets for folks.

I have always been a proponent of keeping the GSD the way it was intended, Confident, bold, stable nerve, working ability and even aggression and protectiveness but good with the family and settles at home, for a few examples. Most of my threads have been on that very topic. 
Apparently the title thing stepped on some toes. At least it got folks talking about GSDs.

My male is from adlerstein and my female from True Haus, they are hardly dumbed down pets.

,


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Well you're framing your arguments in such way that naturally it's going to 'step on toes' and several people have disagreed with you, not just myself and unlimited.

On other sites this might be called baiting, I do *NOT* think that is what you're doing here and to honest I'm not sure what point you're trying to make because no here has said that titles are the ONLY litmus test which should be applied either.

You're sort-a trying to have your cake and eat it too here. IMO you weren't being fair in your arguments and that's the only reason I jumped in. 

I just always try to remember it's another human being behind the other monitor and it's nothing personal.








Jack's Dad said:


> Wasn't going to respond but your opinion of the value of my posts is not really important.
> 
> Somehow you and unlimited seem to think I'm wanting to dumb down the breed to make it palatable pets for folks.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Live long and prosper, too.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Fire a gun at a specialty conformation show and they'd probably all poop themselves. But those breeders think their dogs are 'all that and a bag of chips'....


Funny...all my dogs, including my American dogs, are gun sure. I have a little bitch I frequently heel under gunfire, no problems


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Actually, I think Jack's Dad's point, although a bit overstated, has merit. For me, titles are just another piece of information that may have more or less importance depending on the situation or the individual whom I may be dealing with. The "end" is to produce good dogs. Titling is a "means" that _may_ lead to that end. I have learned over the years that it is wise not confuse "ends" with "means" or to assume that there is only one "means" to reach an "end." An absence of titles is not necessarily synonymous with a lack of training and testing.

At least for me, when experienced people who have been involved in Schutzhund for 25+ years decry what it has become and worry about the effect it is having on the breed in terms of the dogs it is promoting, it gives me pause. I also found it interesting that some very experienced folks had more nuanced views concerning titling and that some of the most strident views favoring the importance of titles come from folks newer to Schutzhund or even from aspiring Schutzhunders.

Personally, I would like to see some means of assessing for breeding that really focuses on what the dog IS rather than the training the dog received.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Fair points, except in blue contradicts what I have hilighted in red.

Given the context "The heck with titles!" IMO most of the participants in this thread have been moderate in their opinions.

No one has said titles (and we are assuming IPO for the most part) are the end all be all in the selection of breed worthy dogs, to be fair.

I think the majority of people agree there is a balance to be struck, which will never be easy.



jmdjack said:


> Actually, I think Jack's Dad's point, although a bit overstated, has merit. For me, titles are just another piece of information that may have more or less importance depending on the situation or the individual whom I may be dealing with. The "end" is to produce good dogs. Titling is a "means" that _may_ lead to that end. I have learned over the years that it is wise not confuse "ends" with "means" or to assume that there is only one "means" to reach an "end." An absence of titles is not necessarily synonymous with a lack of training and testing.
> 
> At least for me, when experienced people who have been involved in Schutzhund for 25+ years decry what it has become and worry about the effect it is having on the breed in terms of the dogs it is promoting, it gives me pause. I also found it interesting that some very experienced folks had more nuanced views concerning titling and that some of the most strident views favoring the importance of titles come from folks newer to Schutzhund or even from aspiring Schutzhunders.
> 
> Personally, I would like to see some means of assessing for breeding that really focuses on what the dog IS rather than the training the dog received.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Fair points, except in blue contradicts what I have hilighted in red.
> 
> Given the context "The heck with titles!" IMO most of the participants in this thread have been moderate in their opinions.
> 
> ...


If you go back and read Jack's Dad's first post (not just the title) and note the word "some" in front of the "very experienced folks . . . " language you highlighted in blue, I think you will see that there is no contradiction.  In any event, it's all good - we agree that titles are not everything and they are not nothing.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Jmdjack, I agree. I don't see a contradiction either. 

I'm not opposed to titles. IF I wanted to compete I'd probably look for a pup from families heavily titled in whatever endeavor I planned to pursue. Unfortunately, all too often, I think that's become the real value of titles...They indicate which dogs will produce pups that can also be titled. From what I've read by people I greatly respect, some of which have trained & titled for years, titles are simply not necessarily a good indicator of solid nerves, a clear headed *thinking* GSD or how well the dog handles stress. 

Puppy buyers that don't understand the limitations of titles can wind up with dogs vastly different than what they reasonably wanted & expected.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

UnlimitedGSD said:


> ...Temperament and nerve testing...?? Do you know anything about Schutzhund?


Unfortunately, some of the worst temperaments and nerves I have personally seen have been with dogs that were actually titled in schutzhund. For many, many breeders/trainers schutzhund is no longer a way to prove breed worthiness. For these folks, it is nothing more than a marketing label to sell dogs to the U.S. 

I had a trainer explain the whole concept of "midnight trials" to me in answer to my question of how a particular dog had managed to title at all. Once money becomes involved even the best system can be polluted and exporting titled dogs involves a large chunk of change for many breeders in Europe and a lot of people here in the U.S. see nothing past the title and what they think it means as far as quality.
Sheilah


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

We all have a choice on which breeder to select. To each his own. I don't just look at the titles but the dogs they are producing. I'll support the breeder who is working their dogs, not sending them away for rushed titles.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I understand what you are saying, I did read all of the posts in this thread and the reasoning wasn't supporting the premise. Several contradictions. Please see my post 120 for my explanation as to why it's not just the title. 

It's also the fact that Andy (to my knowledge?) isn't a breeder and here this thread is in the breeding section too, so he's not expert either.

I've been following Cliffson's posts and Vandal's posts regarding IPO and what quality of dog does that help produce in general and for the world of LE and MWDs. Very interesting reading about what they have witnessed.

IMHO that type of convo (while very legitimate in of itself) falls into different category of the goals of the breed (re: specialization is it good, is it bad?). It's more of a macro question first and ironically GSDs bred more for the LE venue would be less likely to be the companion pets (fair to say?)

I think it would be interesting to dissect whether specialization, which seems to happen a lot with GSDs is a good thing or bad, given that society and it's demands on dogs has evolved since Max von Stephanitz.

In purple, yes, it is all good! It was a beautiful day and while I spent time here today, I was out in the sunshine training too. 







jmdjack said:


> If you go back and read Jack's Dad's first post (not just the title) and note the word "some" in front of the "very experienced folks . . . " language you highlighted in blue, I think you will see that there is no contradiction.  In any event, it's all good - we agree that titles are not everything and they are not nothing.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

...and one more thought on some points regarding suitability of IPO for testing.

I don't know the answer to this, but as a possiblity, is it not that the dogs have changed so much (vis a vis IPO) but that our expectations of what the dogs should do (or be) have changed?

Just typin' outloud, so to speak.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

gwenhwyfair.

I really don't know where you are coming from.

First if you are talking, as I was about a title qualifying a dog for breeding where else would I put it. 

2nd. I'm not a breeder or an expert. I've had a number of GSDs besides the two I have now and a bunch of other breeds along the way.

You have very strong opinions especially about this thread and I feel like you are critiquing it like a debate coach.

I don't need to be a Supreme Court Justice to have an view on the issues that come before them.

So I respect your opinion but don't believe it has any more weight than mine or anyone else.

By the way Vandal, Cliff and others are worth listening to. I could safely say the experience of either one alone out does yours and mine put together.

A lot of experienced people responded to this and a number of them agreed with me. If not exactly, in principle. It's always educational for me to listen to experienced people even if I sometimes disagree.

If we need a means test of experience to post or start a thread then the place will be empty soon.


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

Seems like this topic really spurred some great conversation...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That comment regarding experience was in response to something another poster wrote (quoted therein) and not directed or intended for you in any way. You're taking it completely out of context.

You're not reading my posts carefully. I said Cliffson and Vandal have VERY interesting convos. I pay attention when they post because of their knowledge. Are you trying to twist my words now to gain some advantage?

I actually enjoy a good debate as long as it does not get personal. My opinions really aren't that strong, I'm smack dab in the middle on this.

As far as a debate coach, form follows function and resolutions follow logic.

I'm a geek, I admit it. 



Jack's Dad said:


> gwenhwyfair.
> 
> I really don't know where you are coming from.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'd be interested in your thoughts regarding the ongoing trend to specialization within German Shepherd breed.

Others, (not myself) have posted they don't want the German Shepherd to be like the Malinios yet folks like yourself say that many of the GSDs today are not suitable for work.

Have _we changed_ the bar on LE dogs compared say to the 1960s or have the dogs changed alot?






Tim Connell said:


> Seems like this topic really spurred some great conversation...


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

There are definite differences in what is out there being bred in the GSD world. The GSD is a different breed than the Malinois, so hopefully people can appreciate and embrace the two breeds, and not try to make one into the other.

In a perfect world, the GSD would remain the versatile working dog as Capt. von Stephanitz envisioned. Sadly, the working ability of many current era GSD's is non-existent. Sadly, this evolution toward hamstringing the true working ability of the GSD started long ago, with it's evolution into the pet world, and the show dog world.

There are people out there that cherish that old school working dog and still breed for it, thankfully.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Thankfully and I agree. Thanks for responding. 

BTW- it's not just the GSDs, I've heard amongst people who go to field trials the same has been and is happening with many of the hunting group.



Tim Connell said:


> There are definite differences in what is out there being bred in the GSD world. The GSD is a different breed than the Malinois, so hopefully people can appreciate and embrace the two breeds, and not try to make one into the other.
> 
> In a perfect world, the GSD would remain the versatile working dog as Capt. von Stephanitz envisioned. Sadly, the working ability of many current era GSD's is non-existent. Sadly, this evolution toward hamstringing the true working ability of the GSD started long ago, with it's evolution into the pet world, and the show dog world.
> 
> There are people out there that cherish that old school working dog and still breed for it, thankfully.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

General question.So, would you breed a GSD male with hips that will not certify with any orgs, no title, no CGC, NADA? Just because of the bloodline? One that does not have “solid nerves, a clear headed *thinking* GSD or how well the dog handles stress.”


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Interesting all the different points of view. I would not buy a dog solely based on titles and more than I would buy a dog based on color. I will buy my next GSD from a breeder who breed to the standard and consistently produces the health and temperament I want (confident, not reactive, wants to work with the handler, good hips, longevity, no epi). 

Most breeders like this do work and title their own dogs, but if one of these breeders did breed an untitled dog I would trust them and not hesitate to purchase just because the dog is not titled.

I am also more drawn to breeders whose produce dogs who do actual work in LEO, SAR. herding or Assistance work

I have a lot of respect for those who out he time and effort into training and titling their dogs.

I will probably never title my dogs even though I train every day, simply because it would take too much time away from my family. However because of the time spent training my dog are able to be included on all our family adventures.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

In answer to Smith86, weak nerves is a deal breaker for me....but many years ago we bred dogs without many of the things you listed and either we were extremely lucky or it can be done by conscientious breeders who knew there lines. One of the problems in the states today is that there are not many people who have bred their stock for 5plus generations, so they know what they are carrying in their lines, and STILL are breeding for working stock. Most people breeding working stock today are importing dogs left and right, the few long term breeders that know their lines for many many generations (like Carmen Duggan) are producing dogs as good as any of the sport breeders. The longtime American breeders are mostly using the AS lines that have lost true working ability. There are many second and third generation breeders of import dogs that are breeding dogs with out certs and titles....most of them know little about their stock to make good decisions EXCEPT what the titles and certs tell them which is not enough in itself. I would not chance them, so for me the integrity of the breeder is most important than certs and titles, because if I respect the knowledge base of the breeder, I know they are using sound stock AND knows the ins and outs of their stock.....plus they are breeding for utility!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Cliff,

I agree. Acknowledging weak or unstable nerve is paramount. As with Carmen and few select people, they train trial, certify, etc their dogs. That is a big difference from people that do not really do anything with their dogs and just breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I want(have) a dog from those more than one or two generation bred lines. 
It is cool to see how the litters are very consistent with the mother line, even with different studs, there is still that Ira influence.


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## x11 (Jan 1, 2012)

in light of cliff's comments, does it make much sense for people outside of euro to bothere breeding high class working dogs?? i mean they got the culture, the population, the contacts/networks the gene pool, the resources, the support.........

could this just be basic globalisation - if it is cheaper and better quality to import bananas from the philipines then why try grow them locally if all yr want to do is eat a good banana at a good price...seriously.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

But, testing, both nerve and temperament, stability of both, as well as functionality and health - hips, elbows - why not?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Debbieg said:


> Interesting all the different points of view. I would not buy a dog solely based on titles and more than I would buy a dog based on color.


I could care less about the titles (probably a good thing since I mostly get my dogs from rescue) but if I ever come across a white GSD pup that I could afford, I would have a super hard time resisting.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

My opinion on titles is the same than about pedigrees. They, by themselves, are worth the paper they are written in. It's the knowledge behind them what is priceless, but only for those who know how to read them. For the rest is nothing but something to brag about or a marketing tool to get more money. 

A titled dog is no better than an untitled dog as a registered dog is no better than an unregistered one only by itself. The problem is that I have no mean to know how wonderful is that dog only by being in a kennel or in his backyard, while the more advanced the title, more the chances I have to see that dog working, not only on the trials themselves but also at training. If not me then at least someone whose opinion I respect and if everything else fails... there is somewhere a video on YouTube as a last resort, LOL

But as been said, there are no shortcuts, titles are useless for those without the knowledge and experience to use them as the tool they are. Disregard them is, sorry to be harsh, an admission of ignorance.

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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I looked at Jack's pedigree. It was about what I expected. Beautiful dogs... Three generations back. And titles... Same thing, three generations back. 

I would love it if I could get this dog a title. But, I don't think all my efforts could ever make it happen. Not that he's not a spectacular dog, just that when breeders stop titling their lines, the breed suffers. 

He's a beautiful dog, but he could have been so much more had his breeder been focused on proving and improving the breed. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Good point. IMHO it is mostly market driven.

At the end of the day there's a dog to fit just about everyone's desire. The argument (and this is again MHO) is whether the dog fits a person's ideal image of a German Shepherd Dog. From the deeply knowledgeable people like Cliffson, Carmen and Vandal about drive, working ability and structure to the people who want the huge, 'straight backed old fashioned' GSDs...it's the complete spectrum.

A LE handler is going to look for something different then a family that wants a companion that reminds them of a dog they grew up with, or a person who is really interested in agility and so on. Yet all of these people will also believe their dog is a good example of the breed. While this is true of other breeds this desire to specialize within a breed seems more prevelant with GSDs. 

I was chatting with a LE K9 handler about his dog, a Mali. Asked him why not a GSD he said Mali's are less expensive and tend to have fewer health problems. 

That's the free market at work, for better or for worse it is the system by which we now select dogs.





x11 said:


> in light of cliff's comments, does it make much sense for people outside of euro to bothere breeding high class working dogs?? i mean they got the culture, the population, the contacts/networks the gene pool, the resources, the support.........
> 
> could this just be basic globalisation - if it is cheaper and better quality to import bananas from the philipines then why try grow them locally if all yr want to do is eat a good banana at a good price...seriously.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

This picture has been on my mind since we have been talking about titles and specializations in the breed. What do you think he would be saying now?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I don't care what titles, what pedigree, what hip rating, conformation rating, etc is there....if I don't like the nerves - I would not breed to it. You can breed to help grips, help color, help clarity, help dog aggression, help hips & elbow background, help eye color....but nerves??? NOT WORTH IT! Not worth producing even one pup in eight who cannot live a normal life because of poor nerves. Not worth trying to figure out what to do with that pup, where it can live out a safe happy life. Not worth the heartbreak when you or the owner has to put it down because of poor nerves/fearfulness etc....

A friend of mine went through hades with a young male that was her 2nd replacement dog (bad elbows, bad hips previous dogs) She worked her behind off with that dog, socializing, training, doing everything right....and the dog got progressively worse until the best option for him was to let him go. I know how hard that was and I would not wish it on anyone.

Yes - there is a very very good reason to keep the breed going to standard (working lines) here....there are intelligent people who research the breed, who understand what the intent and ideal of the breed is and want a dog who is a good representative of the breed. Sport is secondary IMO....I have produced SAR dogs, Sport dogs, Agility, Flyball, herding and LE dogs and many individuals combine credentials in two or three areas...in the same litters as those dogs are dogs who are companions, who never see competition, but are beloved family members. Not everyone can or should try to import dogs....not every seller in Europe has integrity and too many pups that should not be sold to novices are sent here.


Lee


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## lafalce (Jan 16, 2001)

That is a great post.

It makes a whole lot of sense.:thumbup:


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