# Schutzhund Tracking - Issues/Upcoming Trial



## Leo0811 (Dec 30, 2012)

Hello,

Let me preface that Leo will be 3 years old in November but we started Schutzhund about a year and a half ago. He is NOT food driven at all, he could care less if he eats or not... At the beginning of the summer/mid summer he was doing very well tracking. 

However, the last couple of weeks his tracking has been nothing short of awful, which is concerning because we have an IPO 1 trial coming up at the end of October. He doesn't take it seriously, he picks his head up/looks around, wanders off the track, his nose isn't to the ground, he needs to be constantly restarted and even then he doesn't really buckle down to do the work. Also, he's been struggling around certain corners (I put food about 5-7 paces after a turn). It's extremely frustrating.

My only guess for why he's doing it is because I started limiting the amount of food on the track and usually 2/5 legs do not have food on them... I figured it was a good move since I need to taper off the food since the trial is soon. I have no idea what to do, besides increasing the food again and making sure he's super hungry when he tracks.

I would really appreciate any feedback! Thank you in advance!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

what do you reward him with at the articles/end of track...sometimes a toy will be more motivational than food, especially if there are ants on the bait or the dog isn't high in food drive. I used a flirtpole with a fox tail on the end of it on more than a few of Karlo's tracks(he will not take food if ants are all over it, and they make him say F this. Luckily he does like to track, yet he isn't doing it for food, but just to track. Articles are an annoyance. 
I would change up your plan a bit, and maybe track less often after really getting him fired up for a high value reward. Less is more with some dogs. Food should not be the motivator, IMO...dogs have a keen nose, they don't need it if there are other reasons to track.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

He eats on the track with a high value reward at the articles and maybe at the end (depending on the dog). He doesn't track, he doesn't eat. This is not my ideal way to do things, but sometimes this is what a dog needs.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Also, vary how much food you are using and where you are using it. Keep him guessing. Sometimes no food at the start and part way out on the first leg, sometimes none on the last leg or second leg, etc.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If a dog isn't food driven, how would feeding only on the track give the dog the motivation to track? (rawfed is my issue,my older dog is not going to track better if he's food deprived. ) 
The sense of smell and reason to 'find it'could be a better plan to motivate. 
I have a hugely food driven pup that is a tracking machine and a dog that loves to track without a food drop....the dog that loves to track for the scent alone, will track through the handler errors/or handler issue, is probably a better tracker, though the scores won't reflect it. The food tracker will probably do well, if we can fade the bait...it scares me a bit! I don't want hectic "what ifs" when the food is absent.


----------



## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

That is where I get a bit confused... Please bare with me ... I totally understand the sport side of tracking, however, we don't know where the scent is the dog does.. Why a dog should be dinged in score for lifting his nose if necessary or not performing in the 'ideal' posture/frame/look confuses me.. If the dog does the track and locates the person (minus obvious air scenting by ranging) by following the track but even a few feet off the track, gets the turns etc and is happy and forward moving, why dock them points? Isn't that a more natural 'real world' scenario? 

I do SAR tracking /trailing and have never done competitive tracking so I am naive to the 'whys' a dog has to have its nose glued to the track (which is natural if the scent is there but that is not always the case with scent). That 'image' of what we as humans expect ends up making a lot of potentially good tracking dogs forced into a mold they don't like (like your dog Onyx that gets dinged for not having proper for or sharp turns) and end up not tracking due to the rigid way they are made to do it... Again, I'm not bashing it, just trying to understand the why behind the need to have the dogs nose so deep on the ground.. 

Sorry if I hijacked your thread.. I thought maybe an answer might come in understanding the why's..


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Hineni7 said:


> That is where I get a bit confused... Please bare with me ... I totally understand the sport side of tracking, however, we don't know where the scent is the dog does.. Why a dog should be dinged in score for lifting his nose if necessary or not performing in the 'ideal' posture/frame/look confuses me.. If the dog does the track and locates the person (minus obvious air scenting by ranging) by following the track but even a few feet off the track, gets the turns etc and is happy and forward moving, why dock them points? Isn't that a more natural 'real world' scenario?
> 
> I do SAR tracking /trailing and have never done competitive tracking so I am naive to the 'whys' a dog has to have its nose glued to the track (which is natural if the scent is there but that is not always the case with scent). That 'image' of what we as humans expect ends up making a lot of potentially good tracking dogs forced into a mold they don't like (like your dog Onyx that gets dinged for not having proper for or sharp turns) and end up not tracking due to the rigid way they are made to do it... Again, I'm not bashing it, just trying to understand the why behind the need to have the dogs nose so deep on the ground..
> 
> Sorry if I hijacked your thread.. I thought maybe an answer might come in understanding the why's..



There is no good explanation. Trust me. Coming from SAR myself, sport tracking is very very odd. It's not about finding a person. At all. I don't get it half the time, I just train to the rules. LOL.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

IPO is completely obedience based, deep nose and footprint to footprint track is judged...no air scenting or air check allowed, points are taken. It isn't 'natural' but all based about obedience to the track and not really about the dogs natural instinct., IMO. I WILL NEVER bang on Karlo for this...he is a great tracking dog, even if he will never be on the podium, he knows a track and will always do what it takes to find 'it' even though it is just a ball, just a floppy or just a fox tail.


----------



## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Funny (sad) how we can take one of the dogs most amazing skills and turn it into a spectator sport that we think a dog should do or look like while doing it... I get the obedience side, but if the dog tracks and finds whatever object FST or otherwise (outside of air scenting and ranging) that is obedience, right? ;o)... gsdsar - I bet it is hard coming back from SAR to sport tracking! Pretty awesome you made the change... Not sure I could (my mind is practical in its thinking and while I respect big time those that can do this form of tracking and excel, I don't think I could do it.. Maybe the AKC tracking as that is more trailing.. Lol)... 

Thanks for the answers Onyx and gsdsar! Unfortunately, it didn't help me think of am answer or something to try with the OP's dog.. Outside of force tracking (which it is nice to hear you don't do Onyx  ), how does one encourage a dog who isn't food motivated...? It isn't a natural thing for the dog to do (keep their nose where the scent might not be and go slow FST).. It isn't like teaching a sit or down command as their is forward movement, turns, etc.. So a proper frame is necessary while the dog scents.. But if the food motivation is gone and the dog can't break from lest it be point deducted, toys won't help, faster won't help... Huh... 

Has the OP tried cat food or dried lung or liver as a treat? Something SOOOO tasty the non food motivated dog still wants to eat it?


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Let me preface that Leo will be 3 years old in November but we started Schutzhund about a year and a half ago. He is NOT food driven at all, he could care less if he eats or not... At the beginning of the summer/mid summer he was doing very well tracking.
> 
> However, the last couple of weeks his tracking has been nothing short of awful,


My question would be, if he has been tracking very well up until a couple of weeks ago.. What has changed?? And if he's not food driven, how did you start him in tracking for the last year and a half??

I would look back and try to figure out what happened? And maybe back up from there?


Sometimes putting them up for a couple weeks and then bringing them back out can erase a negative that may have happened..


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Ball. Whatever you are using is not high reward enough for him. 

What does your trainer say?

The "food only on track" and "force tracking" is something that we do not use, but know some people that have had to resort to this. But foundation is not there and will not be there, if you do this.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

"sometimes putting them up for a couple of weeks, then bringing them back out" 
helps. Sometimes they get bored and need a rest.

We missed tracking last week. Made it down this week - the field was wonderful and both the youngster and the older dog were great. The youngster had a bit of difficulty with one leg when the breeze was blowing into her face but I had put in three corners and I was pleased. So - maybe a change in location? Maybe a bit of a vacation? I have not tracked for the week before the trial. Maybe not for a couple of weeks before a trial.


----------



## Leo0811 (Dec 30, 2012)

I track using cut up Freshpet sausage, and at the articles I reward him with a small handful. The problem isn't with the articles because he indicates them with no difficulty, the issue is with the track itself. He just goes through the motions to get to the articles and get a big reward. I guess I need to make the actual track more interesting to him, he need to realize that the track itself is as important as the articles. I'm just not sure how to make him serious about the track.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

do you do serpentines, acute angles, change it up so he has to think? Vary the cover....he may be bored.


----------



## Leo0811 (Dec 30, 2012)

Since he's not very food motivated, he has to be hungry for tracking. My trainer said that he only eats on the track and gets his kibble when he reaches the end. The issue is that I work and I can't track him every single day, so I still have to feed him at home obviously... I just make sure I don't feed him the night before if we track in the morning so he's hungry. So instead of getting 2 meals a day, he eats just once. 

Leo has crazy ball drive so using a ball as a reward on the track is out of the question, it would put him into a much higher gear and he wouldn't focus on anything but the ball... lol


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Our dogs eat normally. We do not feed their meals on the track...


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Withholding meals to get the dog motivated to track can backfire...my dog gets too much acid build up in his gut, which makes him go off food. 
Why not try a ball reward at the end of the track, if it gets your dog motivated, you can keep the excitement level controlled somewhat with pulsing the line and quiet praise when he's tracking as you want him to.
When I get ready to track, I'll pick a high value toy and show it to my dog while he's crated, asking him if he wants to find it. Give it a try, it may(or may not) help!


----------



## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I do agree with Onyx... Since this sport is unnatural for the dog (not sniffing or using his nose, but the former and stringent posture the dog has to maintain) doing anything that makes the dog more uncomfortable or feel punished will backfire... The ball might be a little sloppy at first, but if it puts the drive back into him then refinement will come as you help him understand the obedience side of the game.. Just a thought


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Leo0811 said:


> Since he's not very food motivated, he has to be hungry for tracking. My trainer said that he only eats on the track and gets his kibble when he reaches the end. The issue is that I work and I can't track him every single day, so I still have to feed him at home obviously... I just make sure I don't feed him the night before if we track in the morning so he's hungry. So instead of getting 2 meals a day, he eats just once.
> 
> Leo has crazy ball drive so using a ball as a reward on the track is out of the question, it would put him into a much higher gear and he wouldn't focus on anything but the ball... lol


The way you're doing it may not be helping at all Leo. I think the idea is that if its not on the track, he doesn't eat. You have to with hold his meals and do it consistently for a little while. With my other dog I was taught how to use a ball for tracking. You use a half dozen or so and you half bury them on the track. At first you do some short tracks with a ball every 10' or so and when he comes across the ball you have him down like he's indicating an article. Let him have it for a few seconds, nice and calm in the down. Once he has the idea you spread them out longer and later on you use fewer.

Don't bury them too deep or he may think about digging at them. I didn't end with a ball, but I did throw it for him right after the track. Partially burying the articles or any food on the track is something I found helps make the track more interesting in general.


----------



## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

Leo... Funny, I had the same problem and it can be especially frustrating. You've received a lot of good advice here. Many of the givers have top competition experience and started with their dogs at an early age. I started at about 1 yo with tracking because I wasn't totally sure I was going to do IPO.. That being said, Chunk blew up about two weeks from his IPO trial and I was really frustrated with him and wanted to skip his upcoming trial... My friends who didn't realize how frustrated I was until I said I need to start over came to my rescue..... Here's what I learned.. Several of them have been national competitors and they all told me that it starts with me... I am the one making the mistakes, after watching him track they all said he has the nose for it...
1. Dogs can do well in IPO by both visually and scent tracking so figure out which one your dog does best to start out with.
2. No one I know really likes the forced track method although one friend said that he actually had a dog he did this with... (and won't do again.)
3. Forget his kibble, he eats it at home give your dog something special, different and in combinations or varieties. I use one of the big rolls of refrigerated food cut in chunks, turkey hot dogs, treats he gets at home, left over meat....
4. Make sure that the pieces are fairly large almost 3/4" cubes because if the pieces are small he could be getting frustrated. less work easier to find, pick up and eat while trying to forage on the track...
5. We have a lot of red ants in CA and that can really make a dog not like tracking when he snorts a few and they sting or bite his throat.. If you do have some make sure to track early in the morning and start with frozen food, the ants won't be so attracted to it...
6. Vary your placement, sometimes chunk gets food every step sometimes he goes 10, or 15, or 20 steps between treats... At the articles when he downs give him extra treats encouraging him verbally with petting as well..
7. Vary his track setup all the time... some times it's just 100 paces with a few curves, l some times it is a set up to practice corners, sometimes its a regulation track mock trial... 
8. If you can pick different fields, grass, dirt etc.. right now we are seeing a lot of harvested silage fields (corn). Soon I will have a bunch of empty fields with that powdery/sandy central CA dirt... I can't wait until the sweet potatoes get harvested because there are several fields that lay fallow until spring….
9. I don’t ever feed Chunk before he tracks and if it is an evening track you can skip breakfast until your dog gets it..
10. Make it fun, if he blows up just figure out a way to give him 10 good steps or so and go out a winner with the last article on that day… I made the mistake of blowing up at my dog and it too several weeks of me being real gentle again and not yelling before he would track at one field…
And finally.. Sorry for being so long winded but I feel your pain… Two weeks after thinking I would probably have to start over with a new dog we passed our IPO1 trial… Not with out problems in tracking but he passed… (Several others didn’t) I was so jazzed I gave the judge a hug… Take your time with your dog, we are progressing slowly. I won’t trial him until December this year, giving me time to work out a lot of his kinks and mine... Good luck


----------



## Leo0811 (Dec 30, 2012)

Thank you so much for your advice!! Chunksdad, I put him up for about 5 days and all of the sudden he was tracking again... I started varying the food pattern (sometimes 2-3 treats every 10-15 paces, sometimes 5 treats in a row and repeat after a few paces). The last track I did was a mock trial track just to see how he'd do, I put a total of 10 pieces of food on the first leg (chunked 2-3 in a row), about the same on the 2nd leg and more heavy on food the 3rd leg. I also put down and article on the 2nd leg and at the end of the 3rd leg. He did really well actually, did a head check several times but did well on his corners and track overall. I've been making tracking more exciting by throwing some of his tracking treats on the floor at home (right before we leave for tracking) and telling him 'such', then repeating it in the crate a couple times before the actual track. He seems more enthusiastic about the process and more eager to please. I guess it was just a little blip in his training that I took as the end of the world... Hopefully he won't be having any more bumps in the training, at least until after the trial! Thank you everyone for your feedback!


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

OK Leo, you are tracking way too much! We go out once a week and sometimes miss a week. I'd back off on this to maybe two tracks once a week.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I see nothing wrong with tracking 5-7 days a week, especially if you are creating energy and enjoyment for dog. The more the dog tracks in positive mode, the better they usually get, the better they get, the better you feel, the better you feel, the betterness goes down leash to dog and strengthens your bond and tracking. Good luck!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Btw, tracking is an exercise in which the handler relies on the dog for taking the lead, if you handle the dog in such a way that dog realizes and understands you are relying on them, they usually learn to love tracking.


----------



## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I try and track as often as I can, and typically aim for as close to 7 days a week as I can get. "Too much" is subjective..

OP - there are a hundred different ways and opinions of what to do. I very rarely give my dog any sort of extra special reward on the end of a track because I personally don't want to risk any rushing to the end for that reward. My current competition dog tracks extremely well with food as a motivator (varied spots on the track, but never consecutive footsteps) and with additional rewards at the articles. I also try and track her without holding the leash whenever possible, leaving her accountable to the track without looking to me for guidance. My last dog had very little drive to eat food on the actual track, but would track to find the articles and enjoyed high value rewards there (sardines, small cans of wet food, chicken etc). It all depends on the dog. I do know from my own experience that rewarding at the end of the track did not prove to be as successful of a method as my current training methods are going, so if I were in your position, I would attempt to teach the dog to track for the articles and earn there reward there. If it were my dog, I'd also be tracking every day, maybe twice a day, and make sure they were hungry.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

How many times a week someone tracks depends a lot on the dog, but I have found over the years, that if you want to make progress you must track at least 3X per week. I track my young and competition dogs 5-6 days a week (I could do 7 days, but I need a day off at times). Vala I tracked 3X per week when I was working her for the FH1-2. She was mature (older), very experienced, and didn't need more than that. Most competition handlers track 7 days a week if possible.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> How many times a week someone tracks depends a lot on the dog,



That... 

But also one's work schedule.. Those that have a 8 - 10 hour work day are limited..


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

G-burg said:


> But also one's work schedule.. Those that have a 8 - 10 hour work day are limited..


No excuse. Track in the dark before or after work.


----------

