# About service dogs



## wolfy dog

Lately there are  lot of requests on CL from people looking for a puppy to train as their service dog. I have worked with a young woman who bought her future service dog to be as an 8 week old $2500 Aussie mix, supposedly bred for this purpose. She was not experienced in training at all and all I do is pet dog training so I helped her with the basics. I wish this service dog issue would get regulated. How in the world can you train a random pup as your service dog if you don't have a clue (yet) about training?


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## Deb

They hopefully go to expert trainers and actually fully train the dog. At least until there is regulation, that's all we can hope for. When regulation happens and I believe it is a 'when', then a lot of people are going to lose their service dogs. Sadly people who do need a service dog as well as the fakes.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I don't know if I am paying more attention to it or if it really is reaching a fever pitch so to speak. It SEEMS like a lot t of these people want psych dogs and don't seem to uderstand that:

-they must actually be disabled by their condition as verified by a qualified professional
-it is only a dog, it is not capable of superpowers...it will not magically be able to do anything until it has been painstakingly trained for it
-comfort is not a task

They get the dog without first considering "what can I not do myself because of my disability", they get the dog then ask what can I train the dog to do?

Without being too specifically judgmental....I see people putting burdens on these psych dogs that I don't think are fair or acceptable. I think people need to be at a basic level of self care and stability before considering a psych dog. It is not a replacement for a locked ward.

And just so you know I am not just a hater...I will out myself, my dog was for PTSD so she is a psych dog. And partly where this feeling comes from is I helped a friend select a candidate dog and start her in training and then the girl completely destabilized to the point that she was shooting her psych meds for recreation and this poor dog was put in harm's way big time...I was able to get the dog away from her and keep the dog safe but not before she very nearly killed her.

My mistake for being blinded by my friendship with this girl and believing what she told me about some things....

I think there are people who think it is a replacement for hard and miserable work in therapy...


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## Thecowboysgirl

Also...people using dogs who are not necessarily fit to work but people make the best of it...they have invested so much time by then. They adjust to suit the dog. And pardon dogs who shouldn't be working.

I see posts about people planning to use Caucasian Ovcharkas (sp?) As SDs,...recenlty someone was considering a byb border collie/pyrenees mix (who thought that up)


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## CatChandler

I don't know. Some people are desperate to try anything that may help them. Depression and anxiety disorders seem to be on the rise, for whatever reason, so it make sense that there would be a rise in people (not-so-knowledgeable-about-dogs people) thinking a service dog would be an easy fix.

I have panic disorder with agoraphobia and my pup is hopefully starting her psych service dog training soon. I don't have PTSD, and I am constantly afraid that since I don't, if someone random person on the street asks me why I have a SD, I won't be able to explain adequately and the person will think I am a faker.

I emailed a local place during my search to find a nonprofit to help me train or obtain an SD. I got a very rude response from them stating that they only trained dogs for "veterans with REAL mental illnesses" (yes, they emphasized 'real').


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## Nurse Bishop

Are you talking about Service Dogs or "therapy " dogs. I believe Service Dogs are trained to do a service for the owner. Guide Dogs for the Blind, for instance, trains and gives people Service Dogs.Service Dogs are dogs that know when someone's blood sugar is low, or that they are about to have a seizure for instance. The therapy dog is dog someone got to make them feel less anxious.


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## Dainerra

Nurse Bishop said:


> Are you talking about Service Dogs or "therapy " dogs. I believe Service Dogs are trained to do a service for the owner. Guide Dogs for the Blind, for instance, trains and gives people Service Dogs.Service Dogs are dogs that know when someone's blood sugar is low, or that they are about to have a seizure for instance. The therapy dog is dog someone got to make them feel less anxious.



No they are talking about psychiatric service dogs. What you describe at the end is an "emotional support animal" which is a pet that gives comfort to their owner and has no special training. A therapy dog is something else entirely and goes to different facilities such as nursing homes or hospitals to help comfort patients.


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## Nurse Bishop

What are psychiatric service dogs trained to do exactly?


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## Thecowboysgirl

@CatChandler it is a real issue....there are tons of programs providing PTSD dogs for veterans...none for women with PTSD as a result of rape or domestic violence

Do rehearse ahead of time what you are going to say to people and don't get put on the spot. First of all, you don't owe anybody an elxplanation of your medical history requiring a service dog. If your dog is properly trained, its behavior will set you apart from the fakers.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Nurse Bishop said:


> What are psychiatric service dogs trained to do exactly?


Psych dogs are trained just like any other service dog to mitigate the disability if someone who is disabled by a mental illness. I don't especially love calling PTSD a mental "illness"..it is more like the natural response to a life threatening traumatic incident...but....that is another issue.

People use dogs for deep pressure therapy, some dogs are trained to alert a handler to an impending panic attack before it is too far out of control, dogs are trained to wake people from nightmares, dogs will guide people much like a seeing eye dog if they are in a dissasociative fugue state. PTSD dogs are often trained to guide a handler out of the nearest exit if they are becoming overhwlemed in a crowd. They block space behind their handler in line to keep people from jostling and crowding. They often do a little bit of counter balance if the handler gets dizzy during a panic attack.

I also have a blood pressure thing and I get pretty bad dizzyness from that, but because of the PTSD if someone were to notice and try and be a good samaritan and reach out to steady me that would be a problem. So my dog does counter balance for that, she will lean her weight into the harness, usually into her chest if I am holding the one handle, until I can get steady.

That isn't all...and my dog didn't do all of that, but some....and there are dogs trained more specifically for other issues I just can't rattle them off as easily.


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## CarrieJo

First thing sorry for invading your thread....

Yea I know what you guys are saying. I got a puppy for just that purpose knowing full well it might not work out and she might end up being just a pet. I am not giving up on her maybe I can train her to do "some task that would help me, but not for my husband who I was shooting for" but for now she is helping me by being my walking partner (I actually was getting her to train for my hubby who has been through cancer too many times (doesn't look like she will get near big enough for him), I have seen my husband go from healthy to a wheelchair to where he couldn't read a sentence during chemo. He is OK so to speak now working and such but we know we are probably on borrowed time.) anyhow I did research before getting her and knew that she might not work because they say you are better off getting them older etc in the mean time I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia and my doctor wants me to do mild exercise so I figure I will train her the best I can and maybe get better experience in training and at the very least she can be my walking buddy. I do not feel comfortable walking alone and it is too hard to find someone with the same time schedule to walk with me. Shiloh doesn't mind when I feel bad and need to sit and rest for a while or cut our walk short or if I feel good and we go 2 miles. 

There is no way we could ever afford a service dog or even a full blooded dog for that matter and there are so many people in need of them that are out there. So I will probably try again when my hubby gets a full blooded German shepherd from a friend. With the hope I can learn enough by then and do better and just maybe the dog will be ready when he does need him/her. I find I feel so much better when she is with me but I only take her for car rides and rides to the park to walk (except where she can go in like a pet store). 

I did purchase the first book and both of the videos Teamwork I & II for People with Disabilities I found used. Not sure if they are the best out there to work with or not. I don't know if it is my physical problems or my individual dog I have but I have never had so much trouble trying to train a dog in my life. Then again it might be just what I need to get better at working with the next one. I want to reach out to people locally but as a mom of 3 kids 2 of which need my taxi service everyday I have very little time to even try to bug someone when one of my daughter's schedule changes every week sometimes the same day. 

So if anyone could recommend a resource (or think the ones I have would be good enough) for people like me that really are just trying to do the best we can hopefully before my husband's needs hit again because his cancer goes next to his lungs and then his brain so yea I know I will have a need eventually and honestly the fact he is still alive right now when the average lifespan of this type of cancer is where we are now (3.5 years) He has had cancer for off and on for over 16 years now. And yes MD Anderson has already said there is nothing they can do when it comes back again except maybe surgery and pain control. Heck it would be nice if insurance would cover acupuncture that MD Anderson thinks would help with his post-chemo nephropathy. Because believe me lyrica just makes him sleep and stopped working after 2 years. I am trying to get him back on reshi mushroom because that used to help him but usually you have to be taking it for a month to start to really feel a benefit.


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## Thecowboysgirl

CarrieJo service dog central is a forum that focuses on all the different types of SDs....lots of good info there...


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## Spetzio

CatChandler said:


> I don't know. Some people are desperate to try anything that may help them. Depression and anxiety disorders seem to be on the rise, for whatever reason, so it make sense that there would be a rise in people (not-so-knowledgeable-about-dogs people) thinking a service dog would be an easy fix.
> 
> I have panic disorder with agoraphobia and my pup is hopefully starting her psych service dog training soon. I don't have PTSD, and I am constantly afraid that since I don't, if someone random person on the street asks me why I have a SD, I won't be able to explain adequately and the person will think I am a faker.
> 
> I emailed a local place during my search to find a nonprofit to help me train or obtain an SD. I got a very rude response from them stating that they only trained dogs for "veterans with REAL mental illnesses" (yes, they emphasized 'real').


Are you me?  No but seriously, I feel the exact same way. I also have panic disorder (or GAD, according to my physician), have a written letter from my psychologist acknowledging and describing my needs for an ESA, not a full SD. Going out in crowds of any sort, which is pretty hard to avoid when you're in the real world, will set me off every time without fail for no reason. It's ridiculous and I don't even know why it happens. My breeder has also been kept in the loop with my situation and is qualified (and has offered) to take me & my soon-to-be-pup through the training necessary for him to be certified. 

Despite all this, I've hesitated in accepting my breeder's offer of going through with the certification once I get my pup. I know I need it, but like you, I'm constantly afraid of not being able to describe why I need the dog. 'Because I have anxiety when I'm in public areas with more than 10 people and need a dog who would be able to lead me out should the need arise' sounds like such a lame excuse and a poor descriptor of what anxiety really is. It's hard enough to explain to people on a regular basis and not have it sound so inconsequential to someone who has never experienced it! It's not just something that can go away if I - and I'm quoting here - "just stop being anxious." Like, yes great, if I could just snap my fingers and stop having panic attacks that impact my quality of life every day, that would be lovely. 

I'm miles away from how I was earlier this year (gave up my job, couldn't even leave my house and went to the ER because of a bad attack one night). But it's not gone, and I don't want to keep limiting myself.


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## Thecowboysgirl

So...the only legal questions a business can ask you are, is that a service dog trained for your disability, and what tasks is it trained to do. There are ways to say what your dog's tasks are without describing your issue....

"My dog guides me in harness"
"My dog alerts to a medical condition"

As for worrying about what to say to random people on the street, I NEVER answer their medical history specific questions. When is the last time you walked up to a stranger and said "when was your last visit with your primary care provider, what's your blood pressure?" Its none of yours, or their business.

One major consideration for people with anxiety, SDs draw a LOT of attention. Will the dog's help outweigh the increased attention from random people? That is a question you must ask yourself


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## Dainerra

you don't need to give a detailed explanation or one that describes your disability. "My dog is trained to remove me from certain situations and to help with balance"


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## Deb

If you have a problem with balance you can say the dog stabilizes your balance so you don't fall. If it's for separation you can say the dog guides you to an exit if you need to leave suddenly. You don't have to say what is wrong with you, only what the dog is trained to do for you. If you have a medical reason for the dog you can say he's a medical alert dog. Keep it simple and only what the dog is trained to do for you.


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## MineAreWorkingline

What I can't wrap my head around is all these people choosing just any cute puppy and think that they can raise and train it to be a service dog. No matter what the working venue, many dogs wash out. What do these people do then? Collect failed service dogs or do they carry on as if their unsuitable dog is a service dog?


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## Deb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What I can't wrap my head around is all these people choosing just any cute puppy and think that they can raise and train it to be a service dog. No matter what the working venue, many dogs wash out. What do these people do then? Collect failed service dogs or do they carry on as if their unsuitable dog is a service dog?



Both. Some keep them and move on to the next puppy. Some just keep carrying on as if the dog is suitable.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Deb said:


> Both. Some keep them and move on to the next puppy. Some just keep carrying on as if the dog is suitable.


If they are going to force these service dogs on the public, they need to start regulating them.


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## Deb

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If they are going to force these service dogs on the public, they need to start regulating them.


I really wish they would! My son was saying that from his research one of the reasons is because the cost of setting something up. His answer was use AKC CGC judges to test dogs, cannot be tested by anyone knowing the dog and they certify if the dog is trained correctly and competently. AKC then gives a 'certificate' of proof the dog is trained to a competent level. This certificate is taken to the DMV for issuance of a legal ID card. This way no new task force is needed, use what is already there. Would it work? I don't know. There would be problems to be worked out like anything else.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Deb said:


> I really wish they would! My son was saying that from his research one of the reasons is because the cost of setting something up. His answer was use AKC CGC judges to test dogs, cannot be tested by anyone knowing the dog and they certify if the dog is trained correctly and competently. AKC then gives a 'certificate' of proof the dog is trained to a competent level. This certificate is taken to the DMV for issuance of a legal ID card. This way no new task force is needed, use what is already there. Would it work? I don't know. There would be problems to be worked out like anything else.


I think problems also arise from dogs themselves that are not suitable. Shelters seem to have not been able to find a suitable temperament test and have a lot of problems with dogs they adopt out. I know Magwart that posts on here has pointed out many problems with temperament tests as they apply to breeds. Maybe she will chime in.


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## kekipi

People who fake a need for a service dog/slap a vest on their pet so they can take it anywhere are one of the things that gets me boiling mad. 

I do think there's a missing link right now for some folks who need to train their own service dog but don't realize their own limits or capacity to do so. Full disclosure, I trained my own SD when I was younger for PTSD, depression, and anxiety, and when I began I had no background in training. However, there was a VERY active yahoo group for people training their own assistance dogs that I joined and there were hundreds and thousands of very frank messages flying around about being honest with yourself about the dog's suitability, recognizing when you were out of your league, and also a ton of knowledge about how to do the training/theories/etc. I still vividly remember some of the heartbreaking messages when group members had something occur that signaled their dog was not a good fit for service work and the painful process of coming to terms with having to start all over with a different dog.

I feel like (in my experience) that candidness and willingness to both admit shortcomings and not put dogs in unfair/bad situations is often missing when people go to train their own dogs but don't have a specific support community (whether remote/digital or local). Without that specific community I would never have been successful, and all the classes at local training facilities could never have given me the unique knowledge and advice and instruction that I needed.

Anyways, that's just my rambling opinion, this topic really gets me going! :nerd:


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## Saito

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What I can't wrap my head around is all these people choosing just any cute puppy and think that they can raise and train it to be a service dog. No matter what the working venue, many dogs wash out. What do these people do then? Collect failed service dogs or do they carry on as if their unsuitable dog is a service dog?


They go online and just enter their credit card info & dog's name then hit Ctrl+P.

Met one of those people before. Dog was completely untrained. On a flexi. And the woman just kept yelling "HEEL!" She might as well have been yelling 'boogers' because that dog had no idea what she was saying.



For people with anxiety & such, perhaps saying, "I'd rather not go into personal information, but in short s/he is trained to alert me of any changes in my heart rate." 
That's technically correct? Are most of them sensing the change in your heart rate When you're uneasy? Or is it a different cue (or just a whole variety & heart rate is only one of the ways)?


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## CarrieJo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What I can't wrap my head around is all these people choosing just any cute puppy and think that they can raise and train it to be a service dog. No matter what the working venue, many dogs wash out. What do these people do then? Collect failed service dogs or do they carry on as if their unsuitable dog is a service dog?


When I get a puppy I love it and take care of it till the day I or the dog dies. Yea I don't know if Shiloh will ever be able to do the service thing but even the people that train professionally have dogs that don't make the cut from my understanding. But if she could learn to help stabilize me that would be a great one. I find myself falling and loosing my balance a lot lately.

But yes reality is we only have 2 shots at getting this right. Because I refuse to have too many dogs and I refuse to not be there for their whole lives. Now once our kids move out and take their kids (by kids I mean their dogs) with them we could have another shot. People probably say they re home dogs that don't make the cut. I just couldn't re home a dog. Once ours it is ours to love it's whole life through. Despite what happens we took her in to be a part of our family. Now if somehow I ever got a super weird aggressive dog that would be a different situation.


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## Jessiewessie99

Just found out that my grandparents got a 'Service Dog' vest for their now 2 year old dog, who mind is not well trained and a jerk. Cute dog, spoiled rotten, but ugh. It irks me when I see people who have 'service dogs' that you clearly can tell are not out and about. I hate that it may ruin it for those who truly need service dogs.


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## MineAreWorkingline

CarrieJo said:


> When I get a puppy I love it and take care of it till the day I or the dog dies. Yea I don't know if Shiloh will ever be able to do the service thing but even the people that train professionally have dogs that don't make the cut from my understanding. But if she could learn to help stabilize me that would be a great one. I find myself falling and loosing my balance a lot lately.
> 
> But yes reality is we only have 2 shots at getting this right. Because I refuse to have too many dogs and I refuse to not be there for their whole lives. Now once our kids move out and take their kids (by kids I mean their dogs) with them we could have another shot. People probably say they re home dogs that don't make the cut. I just couldn't re home a dog. Once ours it is ours to love it's whole life through. Despite what happens we took her in to be a part of our family. Now if somehow I ever got a super weird aggressive dog that would be a different situation.


I appreciate your taking the time to respond. However, I am still confused on selecting a puppy to do a job that may or may not be suitable for the task, just like any other venue. I question why not select a young adult dog that demonstrates the ability to do the task?


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## Thecowboysgirl

There isn't such a plethora of young dogs available as there are puppies. yes they are out there in shelters and rescue but you don't necessarily know what you are getting health or temperament wise since those dogs can change a lot once they get into homes.

some programs breed their own dogs for the work...

Some breeders have some dogs who do the work and if you see however many dogs from a certain breeder our there doing it then chances are better that person could produce a suitable dog.

Bigger programs tend to have a higher wash out rate because they are on a time table...I just gave my pup nearly 6 months off from public access training to grow up. He is a different dog now. I don't think any big program would do that, they just wash them and move them on. My dog will stay with me regardless so I have the luxury to give him time and see what happens.

Ideally I guess it would be a young dog around maybe a year old who has had preliminary x rays and an ideal puppyhood, ideal temperament, and ready to go. Most people with young dogs like that aren't looking to get rid of them !


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## Dainerra

Deb said:


> I really wish they would! My son was saying that from his research one of the reasons is because the cost of setting something up. His answer was use AKC CGC judges to test dogs, cannot be tested by anyone knowing the dog and they certify if the dog is trained correctly and competently. AKC then gives a 'certificate' of proof the dog is trained to a competent level. This certificate is taken to the DMV for issuance of a legal ID card. This way no new task force is needed, use what is already there. Would it work? I don't know. There would be problems to be worked out like anything else.


I don't know what this would accomplish. It would verify that on that one day the dog's behavior in public was acceptable. But what about actually being a service dog? Will it validate that the dog's service tasks have been reliably trained? Verify that the tasks that the dog performs is actually related to the handler's disability? 

It wouldn't be difficult to put a CGC on a dog that isn't suitable for public access. There are plenty of dogs with high level obedience titles that wouldn't actually be suitable for SD training.


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## CarrieJo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I appreciate your taking the time to respond. However, I am still confused on selecting a puppy to do a job that may or may not be suitable for the task, just like any other venue. I question why not select a young adult dog that demonstrates the ability to do the task?


I actually have been considering it. But when you get an older dog you don't know if the dog has been through and or abused. 

Which actually is something I learned the hard way this time around just because you get a dog young doesn't mean that they haven't already been abused. And 4 or 5 weeks old is pretty young. Sooooo..... my theory was already shot to heck.


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## MineAreWorkingline

CarrieJo said:


> I actually have been considering it. But when you get an older dog you don't know if the dog has been through and or abused.
> 
> Which actually is something I learned the hard way this time around just because you get a dog young doesn't mean that they haven't already been abused. And 4 or 5 weeks old is pretty young. Sooooo..... my theory was already shot to heck.


LOL! I am still confused. If you find a young dog that tests suitable for your needs, then should it not matter whether it had been abused or how it was raised because despite all, it still tested suitable?


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## Deb

Dainerra said:


> I don't know what this would accomplish. It would verify that on that one day the dog's behavior in public was acceptable. But what about actually being a service dog? Will it validate that the dog's service tasks have been reliably trained? Verify that the tasks that the dog performs is actually related to the handler's disability?
> 
> It wouldn't be difficult to put a CGC on a dog that isn't suitable for public access. There are plenty of dogs with high level obedience titles that wouldn't actually be suitable for SD training.



That's why I said 'I don't know. It would need more work.' It would be a beginning I think. It would weed out a lot of fake service dogs at the very least.


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## kigers24

Well maybe the answer to fake service dogs is that only Service Dogs from a government accepted school can be certified. 

We are very lucky that we can do owner training and as much as I dislike fake service dogs I don't won't to see owner trainers lose that right. Who is going to certify them? At what cost? In all states? What if you live hundreds of miles from the nearest testing center if mandatory certification is implemented?

If mandatory regulations are implemented and your Service Dog has to pass a government test to be certified, who is going to set the standards and what task will they all be required to perform?. How often will they have to be retested? This isn't just about behaving well in public. 

Are we willing to accept the possibility of losing our ability to train our own _real _Service Dogs? We know this could happen if the government gets involved. 

For now I really can't support any mandatory certification for Service Dogs because it could really backfire on owner trainers. In my area I don't see many service dogs at all but I know that is not the case everywhere.


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## Deb

I just found Louisiana has someone trying to pass a law concerning service dogs. https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/ViewDocument.aspx?d=991618


I don't think it passed this time as it would have become effective on 1 August. I was told it's still being pushed by him.


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## ILGHAUS

Deb said:


> I just found Louisiana has someone trying to pass a law concerning service dogs. https://www.legis.la.gov/legis/ViewDocument.aspx?d=991618
> 
> 
> I don't think it passed this time as it would have become effective on 1 August. I was told it's still being pushed by him.


States can not take away benefits that are given by the Federal Government. The DOJ says SDs do not need ID or to be registered. These bills pop up around the country from time to time but are killed in short order in one of the first committees. I feel some elected officials present bills just to get their name out there within a select group of people (for whatever reason). Surely they know the bill will never make it past an introductory committee and what they are presenting is a lost cause and a waste of time and resources. If they don't they sure have no business in their position. On the other hand, there are a lot of good state bills that have been presented and passed. In those cases the state has brought their law up to meet the minimum level of rights given at the Federal Level. In some of those cases the state has even exceeding a right given under Fed. law and as such meets and surpasses Federal Rights.


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## Deb

ILGHAUS said:


> States can not take away benefits that are given by the Federal Government. The DOJ says SDs do not need ID or to be registered. These bills pop up around the country from time to time but are killed in short order in one of the first committees. I feel some elected officials present bills just to get their name out there within a select group of people (for whatever reason). Surely they know the bill will never make it past an introductory committee and what they are presenting is a lost cause and a waste of time and resources. If they don't they sure have no business in their position. On the other hand, there are a lot of good state bills that have been presented and passed. In those cases the state has brought their law up to meet the minimum level of rights given at the Federal Level. In some of those cases the state has even exceeding a right given under Fed. law and as such meets and surpasses Federal Rights.


I'm not sure how that would work in Louisiana. We don't follow the US laws, we follow Napoleonic Law, the only state to do so.


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## Nigel

The whole service dog thing is confusing to me, how does someone determine they need one? Does a doctor or other medical staff say a person would benefit from one and start from there? Or do people just decide the need for themselves?


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## Deb

Nigel said:


> The whole service dog thing is confusing to me, how does someone determine they need one? Does a doctor or other medical staff say a person would benefit from one and start from there? Or do people just decide the need for themselves?



For veterans most have a what's basically a prescription written by their VA doctor that says a service dog would be beneficial to them. This allows them to go to a group that works with providing service dogs to vets. Even the group that I work with who help them train their own dogs as service dogs require this. There are some whom the VA has provided the service dog, this though is rare. 
I believe the civilian side is similar.
And then there are people who just want to be able to take their pets with them everywhere, or who don't want to pay to have their dog shipped on the plane with them who will put a vest on their dog and call it a service dog.


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## CarrieJo

MineAreWorkingline said:


> LOL! I am still confused. If you find a young dog that tests suitable for your needs, then should it not matter whether it had been abused or how it was raised because despite all, it still tested suitable?



That is why I said I am reconsidering it. I have always been worried about dogs before as pets, You know looking at them from the standpoint of a mother of small children. I was always worried about a dog biting a kid etc if it was not raised right and or abused. I am in a beginning learning stage when it comes to the service dog area. As far as an official service dog I am not really that concerned about I really am more aiming at while at home at the park etc where dogs are already accepted. You know when you learn more your opinions change. That is what I find is happening, I am learning more and finding what I thought was so important really wasn't (not that I am referring to the biting idea that stands period. )


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## MineAreWorkingline

CarrieJo said:


> That is why I said I am reconsidering it. I have always been worried about dogs before as pets, You know looking at them from the standpoint of a mother of small children. I was always worried about a dog biting a kid etc if it was not raised right and or abused. I am in a beginning learning stage when it comes to the service dog area. As far as an official service dog I am not really that concerned about I really am more aiming at while at home at the park etc where dogs are already accepted. You know when you learn more your opinions change. That is what I find is happening, I am learning more and finding what I thought was so important really wasn't (not that I am referring to the biting idea that stands period. )


One can't be too careful when kids are involved.


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## Fodder

@CarrieJo there a quite a few ways to acquire a young adult with some history on the dog, however I recommend looking into a "career change" from a service dog school that breeds their own dogs and has medical, behavioral, socialization and training records from birth and throughout the pups raising and/or training - depending on when they're released. I work for a guide dog school where many of the career changes continue in other lines of work... whether donated to other organizations or adopted and self trained by members of the public.


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## Magwart

I get requests in rescue all.the.dadgum.time for service dogs. Most of the time we can't help. Most of the people asking have no clue what they need. 

They often want the shy dogs, thinking they can "train them" to do service work -- uh, no. 

The problem is there's no universal understanding of what people want in a service dog. The dogs who can help with daily living tasks are very, very special -- and need a special temperament and problem-solving ability. The ones who are PTSD support dogs don't need to do complex tasks, but need to be calm and highly attuned to their person.

Our rescue has had modest success with a few PTSD support dogs for veterans. It's training that good dogs can succeed at, without a high washout rate in the programs I know of. If I have an app from a veteran, I look for young, healthy dogs that have "bomb-proof" temperaments -- easy going, no environmental issues, no dog reactivity, low prey drive, very comfortable with people of all ages. These are dogs who can go anywhere around town.

Those dogs tend to make really good PTSD support dogs -- but I only see a few of those a year. I often tell veterans we work with the process can take months until we spot "the one."

In rescue, there's no shortage of placements for _that _kind of dog though (as they also make _great _family dogs for people with young kids!). We thus have to believe the vet is going to be a great owner, and the dog will have an excellent, happy life. More specialized service placements make me nervous because of the wash-out risk: even well bred pups have a high washout rate in complex service tasks. I'm not placing dogs in homes where there's a high washout potential, and washing out means that they will lose their home.

Interestingly, I know of one PTSD support placement that worked out well for a great dog that checked all the boxes -- except it had separation anxiety. It was extremely hard to place because of the severity of its SA, even though it was a bomb-proof, perfect dog when its people were around. The solution of being a PTSD support dog ended up being a win-win for the dog and the veteran, who takes the dog to work, to the store, and pretty much everywhere. It's was kind of a think-outside-the-box solution for a great dog who was having trouble getting placed, and it worked out astonishingly well. It wouldn't work for most dogs with SA because they've usually got other fear issues -- this one just happened to have been a great workingline dog who was otherwise quite sound. 

I do know of a rescue dog who became a seizure alert dog on her own. She was an unusual dog had the best nose of any dog I've ever seen--relentless in tracking down hidden toys, leashes, etc, and using the breeze outside to find them even after we put them up far away, out of site to get her to settle down. She was adopted by a family as a pet, and she attached to their child. When the child started having seizures, she started alerting to them, all on her own. My theory is that she could smell the metabolic change. 

I've had other families with sick kids ask us to find them a dog like that, and I just don't think I can do it -- she was a gift from Upstairs for the people who adopted her and put in the time to train her and develop a deep bond with her. Ironically, she was a dog who scared the living daylights out of shelter staff when she was there. She was a huge, sable, imposing girl -- and bossy with people who could be pushed around. She would drag the staff all over the shelter, and even sometimes would bite up the leash, stopping just short of a hand when they tried to move her around the facility, trying to get them to drop the leash so that she could take off running. She was a love when we met her though because we told her "no" and took control of the leash without fear, which caused her to relax and show us she was a terrific dog in her temp test. She just needed to know her humans weren't pushovers. Luckily, the family who adopted her was GSD-experienced and gave her good leadership from day one, which opened up the potential she had....and they were well rewarded. It's not something I know how to replicate though.


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## Thecowboysgirl

PTSD dogs that are service dogs definitely perform complex tasks. When you say support do you mean an emotional support dog?


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## CatChandler

Deb said:


> For veterans most have a what's basically a prescription written by their VA doctor that says a service dog would be beneficial to them. This allows them to go to a group that works with providing service dogs to vets. Even the group that I work with who help them train their own dogs as service dogs require this. There are some whom the VA has provided the service dog, this though is rare.
> I believe the civilian side is similar.
> And then there are people who just want to be able to take their pets with them everywhere, or who don't want to pay to have their dog shipped on the plane with them who will put a vest on their dog and call it a service dog.


From the civilian side - 
I interviewed with two different psych service dog organizations. With one, I emailed briefly with a representative, she pre-approved me, then she sent me a very long application to be filled out by me, my psychologist (who had to then mail or fax it directly to her), and my GP (same deal). I ended up not going with that organization because I couldn't fly to California. With the local organization I decided on instead, I had an in-depth interview with the head of the group, who's a psychotherapist, and that was basically it.


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## CarrieJo

Fodder said:


> @*CarrieJo* there a quite a few ways to acquire a young adult with some history on the dog, however I recommend looking into a "career change" from a service dog school that breeds their own dogs and has medical, behavioral, socialization and training records from birth and throughout the pups raising and/or training - depending on when they're released. I work for a guide dog school where many of the career changes continue in other lines of work... whether donated to other organizations or adopted and self trained by members of the public.


Not sure if this is what you mean:
I thought about trying to see if I can find something local and close that maybe will train me to train my dog in exchange for helping with their training? Don't know where I could squeeze that in with all I am currently doing and the lack of energy I have but I don't even know a reputable one around here to even approach. I do not want to approach one that does things wrong or bad, or where they would feel I am in their way. Another problem is while I am aware of what all my husband needed in the past doesn't really prepare me for specific needs that he might need that might be different in the future. Not to mention I really "see" myself needing things in the future with this fibromyalgia is going I do find myself falling more often. So unfortunately I do see the need coming for at least one of us maybe both. Anyone know of anyone honestly ethical and flexible (my hours of availability suck I am the only driver of 2 kids, the caregiver in a house of 5, exhausted when my medicine wears off etc in the NW Houston area?)


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## cdwoodcox

If I understand this fully. One can go to a trainer and have their own dog service dog trained if the dog is capable. Or purchase a service dog. " the trainer I am taking athena to is a marine vet and he trains service dogs for soldiers with ptsd". Either their dog or he has dogs at his facility. So that is how those that truly need service dogs acquire one. 
Or if you just want to take your dog in walmart or bypass the no pet policy of your lease you just go online and order a vest for $80.00 and you have a "service" dog. 
Is that the jest of it?


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## Fodder

OR @cdwoodcox depending on your disability - there are nonprofit organizations that breed, raise and train dogs that are then placed with the person in need at no charge.

Canine companions for independence, guide dogs for the blind, dogs for diabetics, and the list goes on.....

@CarrieJo - no, it does not seem that you are understanding my suggestion the way I intended. Call guide dogs of Texas, ask them their process of adopting a "career change" dog. Locating a service dog trainer will still be on you, but this is one way to acquire an older dog that has been temperament tested, and tracked both medically and behaviorally since birth. They can't guarantee that the dog will be suitable, but neither can a breeder or rescue.

Otherwise, look and canine companions for independence and see if you fit their program criteria.


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## cootersotg

Hope you all don't mind me jumping in this thread, I am new here.

I wanted to share some of our plans for our GSD pup that we pick up in a few weeks and get your expert feedback.

My wife has a number of medical issues. She has a few medical issues including CP that affect her mobility. She is lucky, she is not in a wheelchair like many people with CP, but she uses a cane most of the time and her mobility seems to be getting a tad worse over time. On top of that she does have some anxiety issues (not just us saying so, we have spent years working with professionals and it is rather stable on her medication).

I don't think my wife "needs" a service dog at this time, but looking down the road we can see where it would probably be very beneficial eventually. Many times if she doesn't have her cane, or on bad days even with her cane, she needs me for support, to have a dog provide that as well as to help calm her anxiety (which can be triggered when she is having a bad mobility day) seems like it could work well especially during times when I cannot be around for some reason.

We are at a point where we want to bring a new dog into the house. Over the last few years we have spent countless hours discussing what we wanted in a dog and how to best get it. For a number of reasons we landed on a GSD. We work from home and are able to spend a ton of time with the dog, and I am going to be able to spend many hours doing obedience work with the dog.

Our breeder knows that the potential for us to use this GSD as a service dog is there and is pairing us with the right pup (as much as you can tell at puppy age anyways) from parents who would have been good at this work.

Our attitude is that because we are not in need of an SD right now we have the time to train the dog. I will start with doing the obedience myself and if it goes well I would like to do as much of the advanced training as possible, however we are not against paying a trainer, or working with a trainer on the advanced work.

If the pup isn't a good fit for SD, we are okay with it being a family pet that we will love and care for, for it's entire life. And if that happens and things with my wife progress worse to where an SD is needed we can look to getting an older dog, already SD trained at that time. 

Do those of you in the SD community look down on someone like myself taking this approach? If we are able to train our new pup to help my wife, is there anything really wrong with us doing it ourselves in this sense if the dog is trained properly?


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## cootersotg

On another note I should mentioned that it very much frustrates me to see people taking advantage of the laws regarding SD.

I was in Home Depot the other day, which I know is a pet friendly store anyways. And this gentleman had a pitbull on a leash with a SD vest on (nothing against pitbulls btw, my other dog is part pit and other family members have had GREAT dogs that are part pit). This dog didn't appear to have any basic obedience training and definitely wasn't socialized in a way to ignore other people.

The gentleman was at one of the self check out kiosks, and the dog was pulling at the leash and barking at people as they walked by and not focused on the owner at all. He was wearing a pinch collar and after a few mins of ignoring the dog the gentleman with the dog started yelling at him and jerking on the leash, making rathe harsh corrections with the collar.

It was obvious this dog had no training and the person had no experience in training a dog.

I am not sure whether this man had a disability or not and whether an SD would be a benefit to him. But it just seemed like a bad situation and really irritated me, because I know that if someday I am able to train our new GSD for SD work for my wife, that there will be someone out there that seems a guy like that and then sees my wife with her SD and just assumes that it is faked and that we are just trying to take our dog everywhere with us.


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## Galathiel

A "service dog" that is acting inappropriately can still be asked to leave a business.


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## Thecowboysgirl

cootersotg said:


> On another note I should mentioned that it very much frustrates me to see people taking advantage of the laws regarding SD.
> 
> I was in Home Depot the other day, which I know is a pet friendly store anyways. And this gentleman had a pitbull on a leash with a SD vest on (nothing against pitbulls btw, my other dog is part pit and other family members have had GREAT dogs that are part pit). This dog didn't appear to have any basic obedience training and definitely wasn't socialized in a way to ignore other people.
> 
> The gentleman was at one of the self check out kiosks, and the dog was pulling at the leash and barking at people as they walked by and not focused on the owner at all. He was wearing a pinch collar and after a few mins of ignoring the dog the gentleman with the dog started yelling at him and jerking on the leash, making rathe harsh corrections with the collar.
> 
> It was obvious this dog had no training and the person had no experience in training a dog.
> 
> I am not sure whether this man had a disability or not and whether an SD would be a benefit to him. But it just seemed like a bad situation and really irritated me, because I know that if someday I am able to train our new GSD for SD work for my wife, that there will be someone out there that seems a guy like that and then sees my wife with her SD and just assumes that it is faked and that we are just trying to take our dog everywhere with us.


A lot of Lowes and Home Depot type places allow pets so that is one thing. But yes, the ADA specifically allows for a service dog that is not under proper control to be removed from a place of business. Business are afraid to do it, I have asked for a dog to be removed that was acting aggressive toward my SD and they did not dare

As for your other question about your pup, I am raising a pup and owner training. If he does not make it he will stay with us and be my pet/competition dog

If you want your dog to do mobility work it really should pass an OFA screening for hips and elbow at the very least. You can have prelims done when the dog is under a year which should give you a good idea of whether the dog is sound enough to move forward. You should not start harness work until the dog is at least 18 months so it is physically mature enough to do the physical work.

Depending on your level of experience training you will probably need the help of a trainer.

The laws do not differentiate between owner trained and program trained, you are no less legitimate if you owner train but I would recommend reading standards set forth by IAADP and organizations like that as far as hours spent working and criteria for a trained dog. Hope that helps.


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## cootersotg

Thecowboysgirl said:


> A lot of Lowes and Home Depot type places allow pets so that is one thing. But yes, the ADA specifically allows for a service dog that is not under proper control to be removed from a place of business. Business are afraid to do it, I have asked for a dog to be removed that was acting aggressive toward my SD and they did not dare
> 
> As for your other question about your pup, I am raising a pup and owner training. If he does not make it he will stay with us and be my pet/competition dog
> 
> If you want your dog to do mobility work it really should pass an OFA screening for hips and elbow at the very least. You can have prelims done when the dog is under a year which should give you a good idea of whether the dog is sound enough to move forward. You should not start harness work until the dog is at least 18 months so it is physically mature enough to do the physical work.
> 
> Depending on your level of experience training you will probably need the help of a trainer.
> 
> The laws do not differentiate between owner trained and program trained, you are no less legitimate if you owner train but I would recommend reading standards set forth by IAADP and organizations like that as far as hours spent working and criteria for a trained dog. Hope that helps.


Yes I have no problem with a pet dog being in Lowes or Home Depot and am glad that there are dog friendly stores. My problem was more that this person was trying to pass this dog off as a SD, when it obviously didn't have basic obedience training. If this man truely needs an SD, I hope that he is able to someday find a properly trained SD or find someone to help him train that dog. 

Thanks for all of the other tips and feedback, it will definitely help.


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## 9/11mem

I recently was medically retired from the the military with Bipolar Disorder and Anxiety Disorder due to my TBIs, I am getting a German Shepherd in the next nine weeks. He will be 12 weeks old but I wanted to go with and take the time to get hime trained to be a service dog. Is that possible still? Does anyone know if the VA will cover the cost? thankyou for your help


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## Deb

9/11mem said:


> I recently was medically retired from the the military with Bipolar Disorder and Anxiety Disorder due to my TBIs, I am getting a German Shepherd in the next nine weeks. He will be 12 weeks old but I wanted to go with and take the time to get hime trained to be a service dog. Is that possible still? Does anyone know if the VA will cover the cost? thankyou for your help



To my knowledge from my area, the VA will write a 'prescription' that a service dog would be beneficial to the Veteran. There are some areas where the VA will purchase a fully trained dog. I don't know where that is or what the qualifications would be. You need to look around to find if there are any organizations in your area that work with training service dogs. There are two organizations here, one charges and one is free. I train for the one that is free to Veterans. Our group is made up of mainly Veterans.


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## Chip18

I don't want to jump on the OP as I don't he is a "Fake Service Dog" abuser. But while doing stuff online ... I stumbled across this.:






And as they say ... the thing speaks for itself.


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## LuvShepherds

cootersotg said:


> On another note I should mentioned that it very much frustrates me to see people taking advantage of the laws regarding SD.
> 
> I was in Home Depot the other day, which I know is a pet friendly store anyways. And this gentleman had a pitbull on a leash with a SD vest on (nothing against pitbulls btw, my other dog is part pit and other family members have had GREAT dogs that are part pit). This dog didn't appear to have any basic obedience training and definitely wasn't socialized in a way to ignore other people.
> 
> The gentleman was at one of the self check out kiosks, and the dog was pulling at the leash and barking at people as they walked by and not focused on the owner at all. He was wearing a pinch collar and after a few mins of ignoring the dog the gentleman with the dog started yelling at him and jerking on the leash, making rathe harsh corrections with the collar.
> 
> It was obvious this dog had no training and the person had no experience in training a dog.
> 
> I am not sure whether this man had a disability or not and whether an SD would be a benefit to him. But it just seemed like a bad situation and really irritated me, because I know that if someday I am able to train our new GSD for SD work for my wife, that there will be someone out there that seems a guy like that and then sees my wife with her SD and just assumes that it is faked and that we are just trying to take our dog everywhere with us.


He wasn't taking advantage of SD laws, he was taking advantage of the store by not leaving immediately when the dog was out of control. People like that ruin it for everyone, as more stores are refusing to allow pet dogs inside. The dog needs more training and socialization but he shouldn't start in a public place. I agree with you that the dog should not have been there at all.


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## Thecowboysgirl

9/11mem said:


> I recently was medically retired from the the military with Bipolar Disorder and Anxiety Disorder due to my TBIs, I am getting a German Shepherd in the next nine weeks. He will be 12 weeks old but I wanted to go with and take the time to get hime trained to be a service dog. Is that possible still? Does anyone know if the VA will cover the cost? thankyou for your help


 @9/11mem you might want to read this thread:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ng-gsd-service-dog-questions.html#post8441401

It takes a very special dog to be a SD... think hard about your breed, your breeder, and all the other things brought up in this other thread


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## Magwart

I don't think the VA covers the cost of service dog training (at least, not that I've heard of here), but there are many nonprofit orgs that may help veterans with training, depending on whether there's a match between the specific service tasks needed and the volunteered trainer expertise available. If you can post your general area (nearest large city), people here may know of resources to point you toward. You'll likely have the most luck getting help with emotional support training -- and find it hardest to find help with training to assist with daily living tasks, as it's so much more specialized (so fewer trainers are out there who do it). At least that's what I've seen in our area.

Are you buying your pup from a breeder with a reputation for producing successful service dogs? If so, your breeder may have some training resources too. Is there a contingency plan for the pup if it washes out?


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## Roxanne2017

Can someone recommend Euro line GSD breeder who has dogs with temperaments suitable for PTSD/panic attack service dog work?


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