# Police K9 distracted by dog in backyard?



## wildo

At a party tonight, for whatever reason we started talking about police dogs. Someone had an unconfirmed story about a police K9 jumping a backyard fence while in pursuit of a guy. Apparently in the backyard was two goldens who apparently decided to attack the GSD. The question is if police K9s are trained for this situation, and what are they trained to do? Do they fight the attacking dog (I assume not) or do they continue the chase with another dog attacking them? I was curious if police K9s are trained to handle this situation. Certainly this could happen even if this particular story is untrue...


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## GSDElsa

I don't really think they are trained for that sort of thing? I'm not sure what could simulate an attacking dog.

I IMAGINE it depends a bit on the individual dog...does the fight instince kick in or do they keep in the zone? I imagine even the best dog would fight back if attacked by 2 other dogs............


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## Rerun

Yes it can certainly happen, our dept doesn't train the dogs in any way to handle this. If the dogs attack or otherwise get into a fight with the K9, most officers on our dept are going to shoot the other dog. Just how it is. I'm sure this will get heated but unfortunately that's just reality. Catching the bad guy trumps the pet dog in the backyard.

Let the police bashing begin. Just remember who comes running when you call 911.


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## wildo

Wow- fast response. Thanks Rerun! We are all surprised that they are not specifically trained for this. I imagine that could be difficult to train, not to mention dangerious for the dog to disregard an attacking third party threat.


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## GSDElsa

How exactly would you train for this? Throw them in with some pit bulls in the ghetto? The last thing any working dog needs is to be made reactive by "testing" him with aggressive animals!


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## wildo

Well I am no trainer. I am sure one could devise a way to simulate this... I dunno.


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## GSDElsa

There really isn't any way to train through any scenario you're going to encounter (and I'm speaking of this from a SAR point of view so the same general premise). You train in as many environments and distractions as possible without putting anyone in danger. They train with barking dogs most likely...and generally other dogs doing bitwork...and probably trained to calmy walk by a lunging dog. But as far as putting a dog into a dog fight simulation>>>>I see no way to safely do that.


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## hunterisgreat

Rerun said:


> Yes it can certainly happen, our dept doesn't train the dogs in any way to handle this. If the dogs attack or otherwise get into a fight with the K9, most officers on our dept are going to shoot the other dog. Just how it is. I'm sure this will get heated but unfortunately that's just reality. Catching the bad guy trumps the pet dog in the backyard.
> 
> Let the police bashing begin. Just remember who comes running when you call 911.


Devils advocate... What about respecting my property? I've broken up a lot of dog fights and never needed to injury any involved. Pepper spray would end a dog fight immediately, non-lethally, and cops carry it. Having it fresh in my mind here where a cop shot the gsd of a friend who called the police over a trespasser, cops are getting *way* to eager to pull the trigger. By all counts this dog wasn't barking or growling. Just approaching on the owners property.... After the owner told the policeman to remain in his car while the dog was kenneled. He is in trouble, being sued along with the city now.

If a cop walked in my home or on my property unannounced and shot my dogs with no warning, well in the heat of the moment he'd have to kill me too or face his own death, as he'd have just killed my whole family and who can take that calmly?


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## koda girl

If a police dog jumped into my yard for sure my dog would go after it. If the police officer then shot my dog while it was safely in my own yard so that a criminal who might have just stolen a car doesn't get away. Oh yes I think there might be some other action the officer can do. Like try to get his dog out of my yard. Wait to see if the fight breaks up. Maybe try to shoot in the leg so my dog wouldn't die. I have the utmost respect for the police and police dogs, but I would not be happy if my dog was killed in my own backyard. I think 911 is a great system we have, but that would be of no comfort to me if my dog was killed for doing what she is supposed to do protecting her house. Just my opinion.


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## hunterisgreat

I believe my property is my property and I will defend me and mine to the last. I respect police as long as they keep their ego in check and act within the confines of the law. Step outside of that and they aren't acting as a cop anymore, just someone threatening and infringing on my rights.

True story, roommate and I had to call the police ON THE POLICE 2 months ago. Guess what? we won. First 2 cops (one on duty one off duty or recently fired Cant get the clear answer on that) were out of line. Responding cop was honest. Police dept sided with us. Charges pending on one, other one suspended. Guy was lucky... It was 3am, I was woken up to him raising **** in the front yard. Made like he was gonna come through the door a few times. I was in my front hall, m4 in hand. Had he come through the door he'd have been dead before he hit the floor. I assume he was drunk but I'll never know

The point is, cops are people to, just as able to abuse power, go crazy, break the law, and more likely to feel the law doesn't apply.


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## doggiedad

Pits live in all areas of society.



GSDElsa said:


> How exactly would you train for this? Throw them in with some pit bulls in the ghetto? The last thing any working dog needs is to be made reactive by "testing" him with aggressive animals!


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## GSDElsa

doggiedad said:


> Pits live in all areas of society.


I was referring literally to dog fighting "pits" when I said to throw them in with them. No, those don't exist in all areas of society.


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## Rerun

hunterisgreat said:


> Devils advocate... What about respecting my property? I've broken up a lot of dog fights and never needed to injury any involved. Pepper spray would end a dog fight immediately, non-lethally, and cops carry it. Having it fresh in my mind here where a cop shot the gsd of a friend who called the police over a trespasser, cops are getting *way* to eager to pull the trigger. By all counts this dog wasn't barking or growling. Just approaching on the owners property.... After the owner told the policeman to remain in his car while the dog was kenneled. He is in trouble, being sued along with the city now.
> 
> If a cop walked in my home or on my property unannounced and shot my dogs with no warning, well in the heat of the moment he'd have to kill me too or face his own death, as he'd have just killed my whole family and who can take that calmly?


No CS does NOT always break up fights. Often it won't even stop one charging dog, much less two dogs in a heated fight.

If you pull a weapon on him for shooting your dog, yes, he will kill you. And he'll be justified in doing so.

To whoever said to shoot the dog in the leg - police can't discharge a firearm unless it's a shoot to kill situation. That's the only legal justification.

Regarding your situation above - he called the police, he knew they were coming, he should have already had his dog put up. Common sense. A lawsuit doesn't equal conviction or fault on the part of the officer. Anyone can sue anyone. Doesn't make the defendant any more or less guilty. I can't even tell you how many times other officers have been sued. LOL. My personal favorite was the hand written (from jail) million dollar lawsuit against the city and the officer (it's always against both, perps know the city has more $$ to go after than any street cop). BTW, in case you're wondering, the perp lost...they typically do.


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## doggiedad

dog fighting, chicken fighting isn't a ghetto exclusive.



doggiedad said:


> Pits live in all areas of society.





GSDElsa said:


> I was referring literally to dog fighting "pits" when I said to throw them in with them. No, those don't exist in all areas of society.


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## Zeusismydog

Wow this is a heated topic. I see both sides. Would one of my dogs go after another dog in the yard? Loki would run at him, but wanting to play. Yes he is a BIG dog (130 lbs) and he likes to play rough. How would another dog see that? Don't know. Would Loki break off if I commanded him? Probably not on the first command. I would be mighty upset if a cop killed him because Loki went after (even if in play) a K-9. 

What is the answer? I don't know but it seems mighty unfair and downright wrong for a pet to loose it's life. Shouldn't a K-9 be trained enough to quit a fight? If it can not bite a human why can't it be trained to run from a dog and jump a fence (I am assuming that is how it got in the yard in the first place)?


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## Wolfiesmom

Rerun said:


> No CS does NOT always break up fights. Often it won't even stop one charging dog, much less two dogs in a heated fight.
> 
> If you pull a weapon on him for shooting your dog, yes, he will kill you. And he'll be justified in doing so.
> 
> To whoever said to shoot the dog in the leg - police can't discharge a firearm unless it's a shoot to kill situation. That's the only legal justification.
> 
> Regarding your situation above - he called the police, he knew they were coming, he should have already had his dog put up. Common sense. A lawsuit doesn't equal conviction or fault on the part of the officer. Anyone can sue anyone. Doesn't make the defendant any more or less guilty. I can't even tell you how many times other officers have been sued. LOL. My personal favorite was the hand written (from jail) million dollar lawsuit against the city and the officer (it's always against both, perps know the city has more $$ to go after than any street cop). BTW, in case you're wondering, the perp lost...they typically do.


I wish there was a like button. I totally agree. People also need to remember that the K9's as well as the officers are running on pure adrenaline at times, and in some instances there is not time to stop and weigh your options carefully. I know a couple of officers that have been bit by K9's during a pursuit.


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## wildo

Rerun said:


> Yes it can certainly happen, our dept doesn't train the dogs in any way to handle this. If the dogs attack or otherwise get into a fight with the K9, most officers on our dept are going to shoot the other dog.


So in the situation I described in the original post, and this response- who would be responsible for the "property" damage of a dead dog? I am pretty sure that dogs are considered property by the courts, so a person would get reimbursed fair market value or whatever. But would the dead dog's owner need to sue:

The cop that shot their dog? Or...
The police department? Or...
The bad guy who caused the chase? Or...
Nobody at all- there are "police caused property damage during a chase and will repair/replace" kinds of funds/processes setup?

Just curious. This really is an _interesting_ hypothetical. In my opinion both the bad guy _and_ the police would be trespassing on my property in the situation I described in the OP. I wonder if there are some specific laws made to protect police that say that police are not trespassing when entering private property in pursuit of a suspect. That might be getting slightly off topic, but with the number of people who said they would retaliate on the officer- I think it's worth questioning.


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## Zisso

My two would not tolerate another dog in their yard so it would definitely get ugly. I would do my best to recall my dogs, but am sure that at that point the likelihood of them responding to the recall does not look good. Being that there was an unknown dog in the yard, I would not be able to try to break up the fight. If a cop shot my dogs, I know my temper would be out of control and who knows what I would do in that instance.

However, the odds of this taking place in broad daylight are less than at night. If it were after say 9pm, we would all be in bed. If I were to wake up to a commotion out in my yard, I would not be letting my dogs out to begin with, for their own safety, and I would probably watch from the window for a minute to figure out what was going on before deciding if I should take any action. Once I realized it was the cops with a K9, I would want to watch in awe, I am sure, and would keep my pair out of the chaos. Also the cops and K9 unit would probably only be in my yard for a brief time.


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## Wolfiesmom

The police would not be trespassing. It's called exigent circumstance, and it's a United States Law.


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## Dainerra

when he is in pursuit of a suspect, the dog (and officer) follow where the suspect goes. There are technically 2 kinds of trespassing: criminal and "common law". Of course, there is only a legal charge for criminal trespass if specific conditions are met: the property is prominently posted and/or the owner of the property has issued a formal verbal/written warning to the offending person on a previous occasion. Common law trespassing includes everything, including the Girl Scouts who walk up your driveway to sell cookies.

Most likely, you could file for restitution under the city; there is usually a fund set up to cover damage to property in situations like this. There is also a chance that the suspect would be held liable for the damages. Generally, there would be no need to file a lawsuit, just submit a summary of the amount of damages, which would be automatically done because a report would be filed due to discharging the firearm.

Now on to the matter. The k9 is in pursuit of a suspect. Perhaps a rapist, perhaps a petty crook, really no way for the homeowner to know. Since there is a chance that the suspect could either a) hide somewhere on the property or b) exit out any side/area of the property, there is no way to detour around someone's back yard and just hope to pick up the trail on the other side. A police chase is generally a time-sensitive matter.

Police (generally) would not want to shoot the homeowner's dog. The k9 IS trained to work with distractions and will 99.9999% of the time just race through and out the other side. However, if the dog were to attack the k9, that is kind of hard to expect the dog to ignore. Plus, now we aren't just talking about losing a possibly dangerous suspect, but ending the career of a trained k9, which could cost the dept thousands and thousands of dollars to replace. 

Turn the situation around. The officer DOESN'T shoot the homeowner's dog. The k9 is injured and his career is over. Who pays for the replacement? The taxpayers? Or would the community want the homeowner to be held responsible? I bet you that most of your local citizens would be screaming that the homeowner pay. Really, you can't have it both ways.


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## hunterisgreat

To that I would say, if you can't stop and weigh your options, you have absolutely no right having a weapon that is lethal when employed. We have way too many cops running around violating rights and using excessive force, and "oops I grabbed my 9mm instead of the taser, by bad about your son's death", that the last thing we need is a cop who runs around jacked on epinephrine making split second decisions that profoundly effect or end others lives. Grunts in firefights in Afghan and Iraq can act calm, cool and collected, and their enemy is much better armed and has all the advantages. If they can remain calm and make sound decisions under extreme stress, so can a cop. If they can't, well, turn in the badge, not the job for you.

Likewise, if a LEO feels compelled to defend and justify the actions of other LEO's when its even questionable what the LEO did... you need some self reflection. It should not matter if there is a badge or not. Like I said, cops are just as susceptible to emotional instability, abuse of power, delusions of grandeur, etc. If you can't objectively look at another LEO and say "yes, he may have been wrong" then you shouldn't be a cop. 

Finally, the police in Japan do not carry lethal weapons. They carry a baton and that is all. Why do they have such a markedly lower incident of excessive use of force? I can tell you a major part of it is that the public trusts the police there. Here... not so much. The never ending stream of cops killing dogs for questionable reasons, excessive use of force, being down right disrespectful to citizens whom they pledge to serve and protect, has led to a wide scale distrust of the police in the US. It doesn't help that so many depts are trading in their pressed slacks and patent leather shoes for combat boots and black fatigues as though they were in some sort of war with the public. I think this distrust leads to handler's dogs also being very wary of the police when they show up as they pick up on the ever present stress most have when in the presence of the police (whether they initiated the police contact or not). I've had and seen enough bad experiences with cops that I am on edge when I call one to assist me. And for the most part, would prefer to not have police on my property for any reason... too much risk that they won't act like police anymore

BTW, pepper spray will stop a grizzly. I have a hard time believing it won't shutdown 99% of dogs. For that 1% that is still attacking, then use a tazer or a firearm. Remember, if you shoot my dog, you're not shooting my family pet. You're shooting my whole family.. there isn't anyone else. Right or wrong, justified or not, there is a good chance I (and many like me) would suffer temporary insanity and then you'd be faced with killing a human and a distinct possibility of loosing your own life too (remember that being an LEO and having some training doesn't mean you can't get your rear handed to you. consider the explosive rise of MMA training) All of the above could have been prevented by using a cool head and not being so quick to draw the weapon. Think about the pain you would cause killing someone's dog. That alone should give anyone pledged to "serve and protect" pause to find a better solution. 

Lastly, in the OP's post, the cop would not be trespassing, but if he killed the dogs, the city would be liable for the loss of the homeowner as they were not at fault. Lets say theoretically, a police k9 ran through my back yard, and my dogs attacked. Lets say my dogs killed the K9, and the police in the process killed my dogs. I would be able to sue for my losses and I would win, and the city would replace my dogs and compensate me for the emotional distress. The police would be unable to recover damages from me as my dogs would have been properly and legally confined, and the police's loss resulted from his own actions, not mine, however justified the pursuit was. At the end of the day, it was still the officers fault.. not illegal or trespassing, but still his fault.

Considering all the above, know that I have many police friends, and have never been or am anti-police or disrespectful in any way.


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## hunterisgreat

Dainerra said:


> Turn the situation around. The officer DOESN'T shoot the homeowner's dog. The k9 is injured and his career is over. Who pays for the replacement? The taxpayers? Or would the community want the homeowner to be held responsible? I bet you that most of your local citizens would be screaming that the homeowner pay. Really, you can't have it both ways.


If the police shot my dogs, I'd be out just as much x 2. If an LEO pursues through a fenced private residence, he is assuming risks. The risk being, there might be a giant dog on the other side that kills my k9. The police must pay for that, as it was their decision to take on that risk. The homeowner is absolutely not at fault in this situation... they were 100% abiding by the law, and as such have 0% responsibility for the damages the police suffer as a result of their pursuit. Thats like saying, if a cop in a vehicle pusuit took a corner too fast and slammed into me at a red light, that I'm liable because he was speeding legally and I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time even though I'm 100% abiding by the law? The idea that I'd be liable is ludicrous and would never hold up in court.


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## hunterisgreat

Let me have full disclosure here... I'm a staunch libertarian, and have spent my entire adult life in the business of serving the federal gov't in one manner or another. I'm sure my experiences with big government contribute to my distrust of gov't and those in power as I've seen how unworthy of my trust they can be. However, a healthy distrust of gov't is an absolutely critical part of keeping the country on course and keeping the gov't "right sized" and capping their power. Too much power invariably leads to oppression and abuse in the course of man's experience


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## Wolfiesmom

hunterisgreat said:


> To that I would say, if you can't stop and weigh your options, you have absolutely no right having a weapon that is lethal when employed. We have way too many cops running around violating rights and using excessive force, and "oops I grabbed my 9mm instead of the taser, by bad about your son's death", that the last thing we need is a cop who runs around jacked on epinephrine making split second decisions that profoundly effect or end others lives. Grunts in firefights in Afghan and Iraq can act calm, cool and collected, and their enemy is much better armed and has all the advantages. If they can remain calm and make sound decisions under extreme stress, so can a cop. If they can't, well, turn in the badge, not the job for you.
> 
> Likewise, if a LEO feels compelled to defend and justify the actions of other LEO's when its even questionable what the LEO did... you need some self reflection. It should not matter if there is a badge or not. Like I said, cops are just as susceptible to emotional instability, abuse of power, delusions of grandeur, etc. If you can't objectively look at another LEO and say "yes, he may have been wrong" then you shouldn't be a cop.
> 
> Finally, the police in Japan do not carry lethal weapons. They carry a baton and that is all. Why do they have such a markedly lower incident of excessive use of force? I can tell you a major part of it is that the public trusts the police there. Here... not so much. The never ending stream of cops killing dogs for questionable reasons, excessive use of force, being down right disrespectful to citizens whom they pledge to serve and protect, has led to a wide scale distrust of the police in the US. It doesn't help that so many depts are trading in their pressed slacks and patent leather shoes for combat boots and black fatigues as though they were in some sort of war with the public. I think this distrust leads to handler's dogs also being very wary of the police when they show up as they pick up on the ever present stress most have when in the presence of the police (whether they initiated the police contact or not). I've had and seen enough bad experiences with cops that I am on edge when I call one to assist me. And for the most part, would prefer to not have police on my property for any reason... too much risk that they won't act like police anymore
> 
> BTW, pepper spray will stop a grizzly. I have a hard time believing it won't shutdown 99% of dogs. For that 1% that is still attacking, then use a tazer or a firearm. Remember, if you shoot my dog, you're not shooting my family pet. You're shooting my whole family.. there isn't anyone else. Right or wrong, justified or not, there is a good chance I (and many like me) would suffer temporary insanity and then you'd be faced with killing a human and a distinct possibility of loosing your own life too (remember that being an LEO and having some training doesn't mean you can't get your rear handed to you. consider the explosive rise of MMA training) All of the above could have been prevented by using a cool head and not being so quick to draw the weapon. Think about the pain you would cause killing someone's dog. That alone should give anyone pledged to "serve and protect" pause to find a better solution.
> 
> Lastly, in the OP's post, the cop would not be trespassing, but if he killed the dogs, the city would be liable for the loss of the homeowner as they were not at fault. Lets say theoretically, a police k9 ran through my back yard, and my dogs attacked. Lets say my dogs killed the K9, and the police in the process killed my dogs. I would be able to sue for my losses and I would win, and the city would replace my dogs and compensate me for the emotional distress. The police would be unable to recover damages from me as my dogs would have been properly and legally confined, and the police's loss resulted from his own actions, not mine, however justified the pursuit was. At the end of the day, it was still the officers fault.. not illegal or trespassing, but still his fault.
> 
> Considering all the above, know that I have many police friends, and have never been or am anti-police or disrespectful in any way.


From your remarks, I can tell that you have had some bad experiences with law enforcement. I hear from my family members and friends that live in the southern part of the country, that they have had such bad experiences with police and their attitudes as well. In fact, we got pulled over in SC. Of course we were speeding and got caught, but the officer was downright nasty, and we were only going 10 mph over the limit, a common practice where I live, and won't get you pulled over. My friends that live in Myrtle Beach said the same thing, that the police are nasty, and full of themselves. I wonder what kind of training that they receive, because that behavior doesn't go over well here, and we rarely hear of it. The police here are for the most part respectful and polite when they first approach you, and all but the canine and specialty units, still dress in their pressed uniforms and shiny boots.


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## hunterisgreat

Wolfiesmom said:


> From your remarks, I can tell that you have had some bad experiences with law enforcement. I hear from my family members and friends that live in the southern part of the country, that they have had such bad experiences with police and their attitudes as well. In fact, we got pulled over in SC. Of course we were speeding and got caught, but the officer was downright nasty, and we were only going 10 mph over the limit, a common practice where I live, and won't get you pulled over. My friends that live in Myrtle Beach said the same thing, that the police are nasty, and full of themselves. I wonder what kind of training that they receive, because that behavior doesn't go over well here, and we rarely hear of it. The police here are for the most part respectful and polite when they first approach you, and all but the canine and specialty units, still dress in their pressed uniforms and shiny boots.


The ones here are nasty. They have the stereotypical "You do what I saw because I'm the law, boy!" attitude.

A month ago when we had to call police on the police, I was like "man... this could go really bad really fast so let me lead the conversation". We got incredibly lucky. The responding officer had joined the local dept a few weeks before, and so had no real inherent desire to defense what the previous cops did. He was exactly what he should have been, neutral, polite, understanding, and not jumping to the defense of LEO without the facts. A rough quote was "Look.. you guys seem pretty intelligent. I think you know what is going on here, so I'm not going to plant seeds in your head. So I will not comment on that. Just follow through with so appropriate action can be taken". The LT called the next day and told my roommate "I am 99% sure I know who the plain clothes guy is". He turned out to be correct. The other officer lives in my neighborhood. Won't get to know what action is taken against that officer, but the other is not part of any dept right now (pretty sure he was an LEO.. had cuffs in his car and was armed, and was instructing the other officer what to do to us when that LEO arrived). So, he has several charges pending and we'll get to see the outcome of that. 

I actually pushed for the roommate to pursue this and made him call the police in the first place, as I informed him it was his civic duty to make sure these out of line cops were held accountable for their actions... everyone, in any capacity to have power over others, occasionally needs a kick in the arse when they inevitably overstep their bounds. Simple human nature.


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## Rerun

hunterisgreat said:


> It doesn't help that so many depts are trading in their pressed slacks and patent leather shoes for combat boots and black fatigues as though they were in some sort of war with the public.


Boy, I absolutely don't have the time of inclination to respond to everything in your post, maybe someone else will be interested in a good heated debate today. Myself, I just don't have the energy.

But to the above statement I would like to respond. Speaking for our dept alone: it issues a VERY SMALL amount of $$ twice a year to cover the cost of uniforms and equipment. Do you have any idea how little that covers and how much has to be paid out of pocket by the LEO and his family? A LOT. Class A's (technically class B's here) as you describe above - are expensive and tear/rip at the drop of a hat. Most officers can't afford to keep replacing them everytime they get into a fight with someone on the street, or have to track 6 miles with a K9 going through and over and under god knows what. So they buy class C's, which here are BDU's. They are durable, comfortable, and hold up REALLY well to fights, tracks, everyday wear and tear, etc.

And oh yeah - newsflash - any beat officer working a rougher side of town IS in a war with the public. This isn't Japan.


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## hunterisgreat

Rerun said:


> Boy, I absolutely don't have the time of inclination to respond to everything in your post, maybe someone else will be interested in a good heated debate today. Myself, I just don't have the energy.
> 
> But to the above statement I would like to respond. Speaking for our dept alone: it issues a VERY SMALL amount of $$ twice a year to cover the cost of uniforms and equipment. Do you have any idea how little that covers and how much has to be paid out of pocket by the LEO and his family? A LOT. Class A's (technically class B's here) as you describe above - are expensive and tear/rip at the drop of a hat. Most officers can't afford to keep replacing them everytime they get into a fight with someone on the street, or have to track 6 miles with a K9 going through and over and under god knows what. So they buy class C's, which here are BDU's. They are durable, comfortable, and hold up REALLY well to fights, tracks, everyday wear and tear, etc.
> 
> And oh yeah - newsflash - any beat officer working a rougher side of town IS in a war with the public. This isn't Japan.


First, I'm not a boy, I am a man. I've not insulted you, and would appreciate the reciprocation. Coincidentally, nice illustration of how LEO likes to try to intimidate folks lol. Sorry, doesn't work on me.

Second, yes, I know exactly how much BDU's cost. But here's the problem. You're communicating very clearly to the public that your intent is to be a combatant, not a protector. That's bad for everyone. You are employed to enforce the law, not be a vigilante. Anyway, you chose your career path. You very well knew the pay situation going in. I cannot and will not feel sorry or pity for someone who gets exactly or very well nearly what they expected to get lol. It sucks that they are paid so little, but hey, our country is broke... its gonna get worse. If its any comfort, the same situation applies to most branches of the military. They have to buy all their own uniforms as well. 

How are you going to fair as a beat cop with there are half as many cops on the street, your equipment is all crap, and you've all fostered so much tension and distrust? The only way I see LE succeeding in fighting crime is to "win the hearts and minds", not beat everyone into submission. We've had to learn that lesson a few times now elsewhere in the world. Why that largely escapes the LE community baffles me. 

Your last statement just cements what I already said. You think you are at ware with the public. That mindset already predisposes you to use excessive force, and fail at protecting the public. If I'm a regular Joe, and I see you beat the tar out of someone and grossly exceed the appropriate response and break the law, guess what? I probably am not going to be so friendly and compliant when you come knocking on my door having already decided I'm your enemy. After all, if the protectors and law enforcers aren't protecting or enforcing the law, why would I trust them or expect them to treat me any different. I don't want getting beat down. And self preservation overrules all other motivations. Of course I'll run, lie, hide, etc. You've elicited that behavior from those people. 

Japan has violence and career law-breakers just like any other country in the world. However, the common man.. the fence sitter if you will, knows that the police will be fair and just, and that the police aren't going to rear back and beat/taze/shoot/etc him just for not being a submissive coward. Here, particularly in the "bad side of town", those folks believe (or know) that the police already view them as criminals, or criminals-in-situ if you will, and that the police are only bringers of pain and injustice. They view their other hoodlum friends as their only loyal protectors. Go figure you guys all butt heads.

As far as the BDU's go.. if you color yourself as a threat, people will perceive you as such. If BDU's are really a requirement of some of the jobs such as a k9 handler, I believe those officers should be kept out of the public's eyes until deployed. It fosters tension seeing "storm troops" running around the city. Its not a foreign concept. Marines are absolutely forbid from being in public in BDU's. Any servicemen you've seen in BDU's in public has always been in the Air Force, Army, or Navy. Marines are allowed only to commute in BDU's, and even then are strongly encouraged to change "at the office". It should be that way with all the branches, and LEO as well.


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## Wolfiesmom

Rerun said:


> Boy, I absolutely don't have the time of inclination to respond to everything in your post, maybe someone else will be interested in a good heated debate today. Myself, I just don't have the energy.
> 
> But to the above statement I would like to respond. Speaking for our dept alone: it issues a VERY SMALL amount of $$ twice a year to cover the cost of uniforms and equipment. Do you have any idea how little that covers and how much has to be paid out of pocket by the LEO and his family? A LOT. Class A's (technically class B's here) as you describe above - are expensive and tear/rip at the drop of a hat. Most officers can't afford to keep replacing them everytime they get into a fight with someone on the street, or have to track 6 miles with a K9 going through and over and under god knows what. So they buy class C's, which here are BDU's. They are durable, comfortable, and hold up REALLY well to fights, tracks, everyday wear and tear, etc.
> 
> And oh yeah - newsflash - any beat officer working a rougher side of town IS in a war with the public. This isn't Japan.


That really stinks that you have an out of pocket expense. My husband dept issues all uniforms and everything that he needs. When something gets ripped or damaged, he just goes to supply and gets a new one. They even clean the uniforms. He puts the dirty ones in a laundry bag and drops them off at the barracks. They come back clean and pressed for free.


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## hunterisgreat

Incidentally, when you see a hoodlum with pants half pulled down, a shirt 8 sizes too large, a triple fat goose jacket, a gold grill, and $200 sneakers, I'm sure you automatically perceive him as having done something wrong and as one of your enemies. Why wouldn't he act in the exact same manner when you dress like a swat member? When I was in bootcamp, my rackmate was a former gangbanger. With a shaved head, and dressing identical to me, I would never have known until I asked about the gunshot scars on his chest. Its amazing what can happen when people drop all the posturing and just talk and respect each other.


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## Wolfiesmom

Hunter, that's profiling on both sides.


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## wildo

Wolfiesmom said:


> Hunter, that's profiling on both sides.


...I think that's his point.


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## Dainerra

wow... half the people I see walking through town here wear BDUs. People wear them for hunting, farming, mowing the grass, hiking, pretty much everything.

I've lived in rural areas where everyone views the cops as the bad guys. I've lived in areas where the cops are respected. Most places are a mix of the two. 

Sure, in Japan there is the ability to not carry lethal weapons. I believe that Britain still rules that the bobbies not carry guns as well. Of course, in those places the general public isn't going to be armed either. Here in small town America, even Grandma is packing. The police get bullet proof vests, the bad guys buy armor piercing bullets. The police get automatic pistols, the bad guys arm themselves with AK47s.
I don't view a cop in BDUs as "at war with the public" I view him as being prepared to go after the bad guy, whom ever that may be. It seems to me that you have pre-judged all LEOs as having chips on their shoulder and being out to prove how bada** they are.


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## hunterisgreat

Wolfiesmom said:


> Hunter, that's profiling on both sides.


Yes.. but lets be real. Everyone profiles. It would be great to say the world was fair and if I wrapped my head with a cloth and grew a beard I wouldn't be judged for that, but I live here on earth where its not fair. The laws regarding search & seizure, probable cause, etc are meant to deal with our inherent instinctual reaction to profile. Humans are social creatures, and we are most comfortable with those other humans who most reflect ourselves. You can deny that and pretend its not true, or embrace and except it and try to find ways to ensure the ideal of true justice is still served.


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## hunterisgreat

Dainerra said:


> wow... half the people I see walking through town here wear BDUs. People wear them for hunting, farming, mowing the grass, hiking, pretty much everything.
> 
> I've lived in rural areas where everyone views the cops as the bad guys. I've lived in areas where the cops are respected. Most places are a mix of the two.
> 
> Sure, in Japan there is the ability to not carry lethal weapons. I believe that Britain still rules that the bobbies not carry guns as well. Of course, in those places the general public isn't going to be armed either. Here in small town America, even Grandma is packing. The police get bullet proof vests, the bad guys buy armor piercing bullets. The police get automatic pistols, the bad guys arm themselves with AK47s.
> I don't view a cop in BDUs as "at war with the public" I view him as being prepared to go after the bad guy, whom ever that may be. It seems to me that you have pre-judged all LEOs as having chips on their shoulder and being out to prove how bada** they are.


FYI, the real bad guys in any country world wide are always better armed than the police. Sometimes meeting force with force is not the answer. The police cannot and will never "out arm" the very bad men. After all, LEO relies on tax income, bad guys have white-powder financing. What is the better solution? Gun battles with gangs and police, or gaining community trust such that the common man is comfortable coming to LEO and reporting nefarious activities on his street? Ideally, with enough community support and trust with LEO, a community simply will not allow that sort of crap in its area. If you're dealing crack, but everyone keeps reporting you... you'll take your business elsewhere (be that another block, or the cell block)

No, I've not condemned all LEO. As I've said, I have many LEO friends, and have known many many LEOs over the years. Simple fact is that, just like politics, stock trading, financial pursuits, and any number of other careers, some fall victim to losing self restraint and exploiting the power bestowed upon them. Those (in all fields) need to be made an example of. 

While people where bdu PANTs commonly here, I've yet to see one with fresh clean BDU's, bloused over combat boots, with a BDU blouse up top, and equipment belt.


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## Dainerra

I wasn't referring to the drug cartels, just every day bad guys... They have AK47s. THEY have armor piercing bullets. They are the ones that the local police are trying to stay ahead of. The average person can "out-gun" the average police dept without breaking the bank.

Minus the belt, the average dress here is BDU pants, either a black or grey tshirt (sometimes with a long sleeve buttondown shirt over top) and combat boots.


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## hunterisgreat

Dainerra said:


> I wasn't referring to the drug cartels, just every day bad guys... They have AK47s. THEY have armor piercing bullets. They are the ones that the local police are trying to stay ahead of. The average person can "out-gun" the average police dept without breaking the bank.
> 
> Minus the belt, the average dress here is BDU pants, either a black or grey tshirt (sometimes with a long sleeve buttondown shirt over top) and combat boots.


Ok, so lets say an actual AK-47 is in easy reach of the average person. That still doesn't make it ok for police declare war on the public on the bad side of town.


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## Dainerra

I don't know any cops who have "declared war" on the general public. On the "bad guys" who happen to be hiding there, sure. 

I think it just sounds like you have some bad apples in your area and have decided to paint the entire community with that brush


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## rjThor

Rerun said:


> Yes it can certainly happen, our dept doesn't train the dogs in any way to handle this. If the dogs attack or otherwise get into a fight with the K9, most officers on our dept are going to shoot the other dog. Just how it is. I'm sure this will get heated but unfortunately that's just reality. Catching the bad guy trumps the pet dog in the backyard.
> 
> Let the police bashing begin. Just remember who comes running when you call 911.


I'm not about to bash you or any police dept., but to say if a K9 is distracted and jumps a fence to someone's private property, and the dogs are just protecting their property like they are suppose to do, how can you or any police officer just jump and shoot someone's dog? That dog has a owner a family, and for that matter most case's kids that love their dog. I can see if the K9 is chasing and 2 dogs come running after him on the street or in a alley that would be different, but in someone's back yard, just find that cold. We are able to call our police dept. because we as tax payers pay their salary, and that is what they get paid for 2 serve and 2 protect. I'm not bashing you or any other police dept. but found your answer just cold and not very caring or respectful towards someones property.


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## hunterisgreat

Dainerra said:


> I don't know any cops who have "declared war" on the general public. On the "bad guys" who happen to be hiding there, sure.
> 
> I think it just sounds like you have some bad apples in your area and have decided to paint the entire community with that brush


Here is example of that mindset



Rerun said:


> And oh yeah - newsflash - any beat officer working a rougher side of town IS in a war with the public. This isn't Japan.


Keep in mind, I am totally NOT profiled. I am a clean cut, straight edged guy. I don't get profiled. I don't have some angst b/c I'm constantly getting harrassed. However, I've seen enough crookedness indirectly and directly in LEO, gov't and such, that I am aware of how broken things are.


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## Dainerra

rjThor,

the idea behind the OP was that the K9 was on the trail of a suspect. The k9 and officer followed the suspect into a back yard. The dogs then attacked the k9.
I would still side with the LEO on this. Yes, even against my own dogs. I would be heart broken, but I would put the blame on the criminal. (Yes, once you RUN from the cops then you are a criminal.)


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## hunterisgreat

rjThor said:


> I'm not about to bash you or any police dept., but to say if a K9 is distracted and jumps a fence to someone's private property, and the dogs are just protecting their property like they are suppose to do, how can you or any police officer just jump and shoot someone's dog? That dog has a owner a family, and for that matter most case's kids that love their dog. I can see if the K9 is chasing and 2 dogs come running after him on the street or in a alley that would be different, but in someone's back yard, just find that cold. We are able to call our police dept. because we as tax payers pay their salary, and that is what they get paid for 2 serve and 2 protect. I'm not bashing you or any other police dept. but found your answer just cold and not very caring or respectful towards someones property.


To say that an LEO can enter your property without consent, without any probable cause that you have done anything wrong, and kill your dog who is legally and properly confined, is to assume the state has a greater right and authority over your own property than yourself and is absolutely against everything America stands for. In the same way the draft assumes the citizen is a possession of the state, with which the state may do as it pleases when it pleases. This is fundamentally un-American. If war broke out tomorrow and I was drafted, I would refuse to serve. If they asked me to serve, I gladly would. I am no one's property, the the land I own is my land an no others.


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## hunterisgreat

Dainerra said:


> rjThor,
> 
> the idea behind the OP was that the K9 was on the trail of a suspect. The k9 and officer followed the suspect into a back yard. The dogs then attacked the k9.
> I would still side with the LEO on this. Yes, even against my own dogs. I would be heart broken, but I would put the blame on the criminal. (Yes, once you RUN from the cops then you are a criminal.)


Who is at fault? The suspect is. As is the cop. He could have gone around. He could have called off the pursuit. High speed chases are not allowed here anymore because of a rash of innocents getting killed in the process. This is fundamentally the same. What if the cop chases the suspect into my backyard, where the suspect shoots my child who is playing in his sand box, and he subsequently dies? Who's fault is that? Clearly the suspect, but the police could have prevented it as well and thus share some guilt. There is a line to draw in this situation where the public is put at too much risk, and its not a clear line by any means. However, if a dog fight occured b/c I sent a dog into a private residence pursuing a third party, then well I would consider that pursuit over, and address the dog fight in a non lethal manner.

What if I had run from the cop that was acting very un-cop like? Am I still a criminal? Funny, I thought you were innocent until trialed by a jury of your peers.. Guess that mentality is dead and gone.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Im probably going to regret this but : In this country cops dont know if their going to be treated w/ respect ,annoyance or outright armed hostility. I had an unfortunate incidient w/ my dogs and our local dept. we had been given a new phone 3 ,unfortunately it still was active w/ the last person who was being threatened w/ violence .when she called 911 they came to my house. wqe were in the poolat twilight. My husband (former correctional officer /aux dep sherriff) thougjht someone was in our house and in his swimming trunks charged the house. I being the wife and a police acdemy grad. got out of the pool and like an idiat told daisy (twwo at the time ) "get them",world's dumbest thing you can say but I thought my husband w/ no weapon could be confronting a burglar(quite a few in area at time). Just as I managed to get out of pool I saw the uniform. The LEOs thought we were in danger entered house w/ flashlight to protect us,I thought my husband was in danger. Daisy responded by being scary jumping straight up 5ft in air but not moving toward the officer. He unsnapped the strap and would have drawn his wepon but the other officer (thank god it was quiet night) knew us and daisy and said "Oh just talk to her that's daisy.If they had shot her she would have died cause they had the right to be there(trying to protect me). I made a decision that night that could have ended badly. If they had been an intruder Daisy might have saved my husband from harm but on the other hand those officers also did not know what they were walking into. Cops and firemen are running to where everybody is running away from. The other thing that got said that night was do you really bwant to shoot a dog there will be an investigation and paperwork and village council plus the dept will probably have to reiemburse. The reality is there will be consequences and there is no desire on the part of most officers to kill someone's pet.


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## rjThor

hunterisgreat said:


> To say that an LEO can enter your property without consent, without any probable cause that you have done anything wrong, and kill your dog who is legally and properly confined, is to assume the state has a greater right and authority over your own property than yourself and is absolutely against everything America stands for. In the same way the draft assumes the citizen is a possession of the state, with which the state may do as it pleases when it pleases. This is fundamentally un-American. If war broke out tomorrow and I was drafted, I would refuse to serve. If they asked me to serve, I gladly would. I am no one's property, the the land I own is my land an no others.


:thinking: are you sure you responded to the right response, or did you just read it wrong, my point was the the message was way out, and it seemed like he wanted to create some friction on here. I don't have to worry about my GSD, he's inside with us his family, but some folks do keep their dogs outside, and as a police officer if you can't break a dog fight apart, that's real sad, I've seen some dog fights and it don't take a rocket scientist to stop it, matter of fact i've seen normal every day folks do it at the dog park, dogs that have no business in their, and it don't take much time to do it or effort, and nobody got bit or hurt, hopefully the leo is just as fit as his k9 not to put him in that situation. Just because you are given the right and have the privlidge to shoot doesn't mean you should take advantage of it.


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## hunterisgreat

rjThor said:


> :thinking: are you sure you responded to the right response, or did you just read it wrong, my point was the the message was way out, and it seemed like he wanted to create some friction on here. I don't have to worry about my GSD, he's inside with us his family, but some folks do keep their dogs outside, and as a police officer if you can't break a dog fight apart, that's real sad, I've seen some dog fights and it don't take a rocket scientist to stop it, matter of fact i've seen normal every day folks do it at the dog park, dogs that have no business in their, and it don't take much time to do it or effort, and nobody got bit or hurt, hopefully the leo is just as fit as his k9 not to put him in that situation. Just because you are given the right and have the privlidge to shoot doesn't mean you should take advantage of it.


Yeah. I was expanding upon your point, not disagreeing with you


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## wildo

rjThor said:


> my point was the the message was way out, and it seemed like he wanted to create some friction on here.


I am not sure what this means, or if it is directed at me- but if so- you're way off base. The original question came up while some friends of mine, while drinking lots of beer, were talking about awesome breeds. There was no intent to "create some friction." I think it's an interesting question about a seemingly probably occurrence that we didn't know the resolution to.

Then again, I don't have a clue what your quoted sentence means and if it was directed at me. What message? Who is "he?"


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## rjThor

wildo said:


> I am not sure what this means, or if it is directed at me- but if so- you're way off base. The original question came up while some friends of mine, while drinking lots of beer, were talking about awesome breeds. There was no intent to "create some friction." I think it's an interesting question about a seemingly probably occurrence that we didn't know the resolution to.
> 
> Then again, I don't have a clue what your quoted sentence means and if it was directed at me. What message? Who is "he?"


:hammer:nope was not directed at you at all, just go back to my first response with the quote I responded to.


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## wildo

rjThor said:


> :hammer:nope was not directed at you at all, just go back to my first response with the quote I responded to.


Oh... I see. Haha- I was like WTF man??? :crazy: :toasting:


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## rjThor

hunterisgreat said:


> Devils advocate... What about respecting my property? I've broken up a lot of dog fights and never needed to injury any involved. Pepper spray would end a dog fight immediately, non-lethally, and cops carry it. Having it fresh in my mind here where a cop shot the gsd of a friend who called the police over a trespasser, cops are getting *way* to eager to pull the trigger. By all counts this dog wasn't barking or growling. Just approaching on the owners property.... After the owner told the policeman to remain in his car while the dog was kenneled. He is in trouble, being sued along with the city now.
> 
> If a cop walked in my home or on my property unannounced and shot my dogs with no warning, well in the heat of the moment he'd have to kill me too or face his own death, as he'd have just killed my whole family and who can take that calmly?


I totally agree with you on this one, what if he miss's, and ends up shooting his k9, or worse the bullet winds up inside the house and a child is injured or killed?


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## hunterisgreat

rjThor said:


> I totally agree with you on this one, what if he miss's, and ends up shooting his k9, or worse the bullet winds up inside the house and a child is injured or killed?


Brings up a good point... if my dog is not considered important enough to use non lethal means, why in the world is the service K9 more important? Both are dogs, if someone wants to take the "its just a dog" route.


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## DFrost

wildo said:


> Well I am no trainer. I am sure one could devise a way to simulate this... I dunno.


I am a trainer, and we don't. We do try to make the dog focus on the task at hand. Generally, when in pursuit, the dog would ignore other dogs. The chase and possible bite is much more rewarding. The police dog is an animal however, if attacked, it's, with few exceptions is going to fight back. IT's up to the handler to protect his dog. That would include, if possible, checking the area the dog is going to be deployed to try and prevent such an occurrence. While that's may not always be possible, in my experience it is usually possible. 

DFrost


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## wildo

Thanks DFrost- this is very interesting. I am curious- if you are able to answer- how would a K9 handler check and area prior to deploying a dog? My only experience is what I see on "Cops" the TV show. I was under the impression that when the K9 is needed, they are called to the scene and almost immediately deployed into action. I wouldn't think the handler would have any time at all to check out the situation, especially when we are talking about jumping someone's private fence. Is this something you can help us all better understand?


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## DFrost

Even with a "hot" deployment, you don't run into an area without either some advanced looks or lots of help. While I don't particularly discuss tactics on a public forum, it's not usually what you see on COPS. While it's a pretty neat show, remember there is still a lot of editing.

DFrost


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## wildo

That's fine- I can appreciate that. I just didn't realize that there was that much thought put into the surrounding environment when deploying a dog. Sure, I knew they'd never release a dog across a busy highway or something- the obvious stuff, but it sounds like there much more to it than that. News to me. But really- how could I know that... Thanks for the info!


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## hunterisgreat

wildo said:


> That's fine- I can appreciate that. I just didn't realize that there was that much thought put into the surrounding environment when deploying a dog. Sure, I knew they'd never release a dog across a busy highway or something- the obvious stuff, but it sounds like there much more to it than that. News to me. But really- how could I know that... Thanks for the info!


Forget the dog being hurt. If a handler sent a dog into an area with no idea who is there, I'd think the risk of the dog biting a random passerby would be too high


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## RazinKain

Hunterisgreat,

you, me, the dogs, and a cold 30 pack. Would make for some interesting conversation.


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## hunterisgreat

RazinKain said:


> Hunterisgreat,
> 
> you, me, the dogs, and a cold 30 pack. Would make for some interesting conversation.


Trespassers with beer are the only allowable exception


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## selzer

Ya know, I have heard of the police getting the address wrong and killing someone dog on raiding their property, or killing a chained dog to get to the porch. And it gives me the willies. If a group of sherriff's deputies raided my home, they would probably kill Odessa and Babsy. 

And that would absolutely kill me. But it would not be worth an officer's life. Sorry. If they did not identify themselves as police, and just started shooting, then I might be coming out of my bedroom blasting my shotgun. But most likely, all the shooting would be over with before I could manage to make me feet work properly with my legs out of my slumber. No, as much as I love my dogs, it is not some 20 or 30 year old deputy's fault that the dispatcher said 31 instead of 13, 25 instead of 45. They are coming in on a situation they have no idea what is waiting for them on. 

A dog is a special and wonderful creation, they have personalities, and losing them takes serious chunks out of our lives, but it is not worth killing a police officer over. 

Now as to the goldens attacking the police dog as they went over a fence to chase a suspect, that is hard. The best thing an owner would be able to do is to jump out there and get into the fray pulling his dogs off. I mean, the cops might not think twice about shooting the dogs, but they probably might figure something else out if a person was in the mix. My fences are high and my dogs are behind two of them, I would be ticked if one of them got shot. 

But what about a bitch in heat. If you had a bitch in that special period within her heat cycle that she is READY to be bred. The police dog is on the track of a suspect, he gets into the yard and is overpowered by the scent of BIH! A dog is only a dog, even a police dog. Most of them are intact, and well if Lady Godiva is out there, will Brutus ignore the bitch and continue his job, will the suspect get away?


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## ladylaw203

FYI pepper spray will NOT stop a dog. Or a bull or horse. etc. been there done that. I am not even getting into the rest of it since the OP does not even know if this was a true story.............


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## lisgje

Wow, what a heated discussion. I am on the side of law enforcement as far as, they are doing their job and 9 out of 10 times if they are chasing someone, it is for a darned good reason. I had an armed robber run through my yard one night and he was running from the the police after robbing a local store with a gun. Fortunately, my dog was inside. I called the police to let them know someone had just jumped my fences, run through my yard and tried to come into my house through the slider, my dog stopped him. They were trying to figure out where he was and had lost track of him so they sent the k-9 unit over, but the first thing the 911 operator told me was, since you have a dog make sure to put it inside before the police get there. If my dog had been outside and the police were actually chasing this person into my yard, who knows what could have happened. the man was armed and would hate to think that an officer would have to make a decision between his life, his dog partner's life and a dog that was interferring with his job to catch someone that was not afraid to use a gun on him or someone else. My dog would probably loose.


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## CassandGunnar

Have only read about 1/2 the replies so far, but, for the most part, it's pretty hard not to know there is a dog in a back yard, especially when approaching with a few other officers and a K9. Most people's dogs are going to bark when they sense someone in the area, be it humans or dogs.


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## ladylaw203

The other thing to bear in mind is this. I have been a cop 33 years. Imagine how many obnoxious,drunk, scum of the earth members of the population that I have encountered yet I do not judge the vast number of folks by that small percentage. Citizens who have bad encounters with a cop should not judge all by that either. 
and this entire discussion is not based on a documented incident.


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## KZoppa

hunterisgreat said:


> First, I'm not a boy, I am a man. I've not insulted you, and would appreciate the reciprocation. Coincidentally, nice illustration of how LEO likes to try to intimidate folks lol. Sorry, doesn't work on me.
> 
> Second, yes, I know exactly how much BDU's cost. But here's the problem. You're communicating very clearly to the public that your intent is to be a combatant, not a protector. That's bad for everyone. You are employed to enforce the law, not be a vigilante. Anyway, you chose your career path. You very well knew the pay situation going in. I cannot and will not feel sorry or pity for someone who gets exactly or very well nearly what they expected to get lol. It sucks that they are paid so little, but hey, our country is broke... its gonna get worse. *If its any comfort, the same situation applies to most branches of the military. They have to buy all their own uniforms as well. *
> 
> How are you going to fair as a beat cop with there are half as many cops on the street, your equipment is all crap, and you've all fostered so much tension and distrust? The only way I see LE succeeding in fighting crime is to "win the hearts and minds", not beat everyone into submission. We've had to learn that lesson a few times now elsewhere in the world. Why that largely escapes the LE community baffles me.
> 
> Your last statement just cements what I already said. You think you are at ware with the public. That mindset already predisposes you to use excessive force, and fail at protecting the public. If I'm a regular Joe, and I see you beat the tar out of someone and grossly exceed the appropriate response and break the law, guess what? I probably am not going to be so friendly and compliant when you come knocking on my door having already decided I'm your enemy. After all, if the protectors and law enforcers aren't protecting or enforcing the law, why would I trust them or expect them to treat me any different. I don't want getting beat down. And self preservation overrules all other motivations. Of course I'll run, lie, hide, etc. You've elicited that behavior from those people.
> 
> Japan has violence and career law-breakers just like any other country in the world. However, the common man.. the fence sitter if you will, knows that the police will be fair and just, and that the police aren't going to rear back and beat/taze/shoot/etc him just for not being a submissive coward. Here, particularly in the "bad side of town", those folks believe (or know) that the police already view them as criminals, or criminals-in-situ if you will, and that the police are only bringers of pain and injustice. They view their other hoodlum friends as their only loyal protectors. Go figure you guys all butt heads.
> 
> As far as the BDU's go.. if you color yourself as a threat, people will perceive you as such. If BDU's are really a requirement of some of the jobs such as a k9 handler, I believe those officers should be kept out of the public's eyes until deployed. It fosters tension seeing "storm troops" running around the city. Its not a foreign concept. Marines are absolutely forbid from being in public in BDU's. *Any servicemen you've seen in BDU's in public has always been in the Air Force, Army, or Navy.* Marines are allowed only to commute in BDU's, and even then are strongly encouraged to change "at the office". It should be that way with all the branches, and LEO as well.


 

okay i'm trying really hard to keep up with everything in this thread but i do have to point out that military wearing their BDU's out in town is now getting them into trouble. Navy is no longer allowed to wear their cami's out in public and Army and Air Force are talking about implementing a similar policy. 

and military gets a pretty decent uniform allowence to replace uniforms so unless they're really dumb when they get their uniform allowence, they dont have to spend money out of pocket to replace anything.


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## hunterisgreat

When I was in they bought us 2 pair bdus I believe, and service alpha and chariots uniforms... The rest they bought for us using our own money lol. Good to see the navy is changing. I presently work on a navy facility and can say it is not enforced here... And the airman down the road will do happy hour in bdus. No army here


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## hunterisgreat

lisgje said:


> the man was armed and would hate to think that an officer would have to make a decision between his life, his dog partner's life and a dog that was interferring with his job to catch someone that was not afraid to use a gun on him or someone else. My dog would probably loose.


it's a tough question without a clear right answer. Flip of the coin is you and your dog were just trying to exercise your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 

Caveat that my dogs are never oit of my supervision unless they are locked inside my home. We'll have police service robots soon enough and this will be moot


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## DFrost

All that argument over a "what if" and could a, ha ha, "good granny grunt". I think what makes me go "hmmm" most about an internet discussion is how someone can take a discussion and grind their personal axe. 

DFrost


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## beowolf

Police in Canada were training their k9 unit when they shot a neighborhood pitbull.

B.C. RCMP probe police shooting of pitbull - British Columbia - CBC News


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## selzer

Yeah, I have heard of it happen on a training exercise -- maybe that was the article.


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## Wolfgeist

It is in my opinion that every single person on this planet should be 100% responsible and held accountable for their actions, and that includes police officers and servicemen. If you are a police officer, and have been given the great responsibility of carrying a firearm, you need to treat that metal piece on your hip like a nuclear bomb waiting to go off. You should never, ever fire that gun unless you are about to die, or you are truly saving someone's life. There is no reason for a police officer to fire a weapon at an animal unless that animal is about to tear his or her face off. That is my opinion, and I feel very strongly about it. If a police officer, in pursuit of a criminal or suspect, shot my dog on MY property in MY fenced in back yard - you better believe I will hunt him down and make sure he is punished for such an act. There is no excuse, no reason, to kill a dog in someone else's back yard just because it was defending its home. The thought absolutely sickens me.

Also, my husband is a United States Marine. He strongly supports his branches' decision to enforce the rule that Marines do not wear their uniforms out in public. I do, as well. I understand that many servicemen are proud of what they are, but showcasing your career and rank to the public is threatening and often intimidating for many average people regardless of your intentions.


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## ladylaw203

Also, my husband is a United States Marine. He strongly supports his branches' decision to enforce the rule that Marines do not wear their uniforms out in public. I do, as well. I understand that many servicemen are proud of what they are, but showcasing your career and rank to the public is threatening and often intimidating for many average people regardless of your intentions. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


That is not how the citizens that I have served for 33 years feel about my uniform. The uniform in public makes them feel safe. And if some scum does not commit a crime at that place because one of us is there in uniform that accomplished something. I dont think any normal citizen is going to feel threatened


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I like seeing any armed service personnel in their uniform, it reminds me that they serve and protect us. I get the part about BDUs and the confusion that can cause but are dress uniforms included? I personally am ok w/ uniforms as my husband was an auxillary sherriffs deputy and I worked in prisons and I'm a juvenile court officer so I have a different viewpoint then many people.


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## ladylaw203

I work with the military everyday. They are a presence here. They go out for lunch,dinner etc in their ACUs. The only problem they have is folks shaking their hands too much, thanking them for their service, buying them meals and appaulding them when they walk through our airport. We celebrate the military here. Our police k9 officers wear BDUs. My normal uniform is a BDU style uniform. I could go on. We cops are thanked here too. I would not live somewhere that treated their military and first responders any other way


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## DFrost

I wore a military uniform every day for 23 years, never gave a thought that people felt threatened with me around. Well, except for Southeast Asia, that sucked and the people there didn't care much for us. I've also been in the uniform of a state cop for almost as many years. The only people that felt threatened, to my knowledge were those that had a reason to feel that way.

DFrost


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## ladylaw203

The only people that felt threatened, to my knowledge were those that had a reason to feel that way.





Exactly.


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## Fast

WLS 890AM


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## e.rigby

Not all cops are bad... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545640


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## DFrost

e.rigby said:


> Not all cops are bad... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32545640


Whewww, imagine my relief to hear that. 

DFrost


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## e.rigby

DFrost said:


> Whewww, imagine my relief to hear that.
> 
> DFrost


Hehehe, I'm glad I could bring some relief to someone in this thread


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## McGyver

Took the words right out of my mouth. Some police officers seem to forget the mission of protect and serve the citizenry, when they take themselves too serious.


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## ladylaw203

Really? Hummmm I have been one for 35yrs and never forgot the mission. Exactly how do cops take themselves too seriously? Been shot at lately? Kind of sucks. Been there......


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## Lauri & The Gang

A police K9 is a POLICE OFFICER.

If a human police officer was on the trail of a suspect and came through someone's backyard and that person attacked the officer - I'd expect the officer to fight back ... to even use deadly force if necessary.

I would also expect the other officers to use deadly force to protect their fellow officer if necessary.

Same goes for the police K9.

As for people slamming the police - there are bad police officers just as their are good ones. There are also bad teachers, bad doctors, bad black people, bad white people, bad men, bad women ... need I go on?

You should not generalize an entire profession based on a few incidents.

Other than fire fighters, name ONE other profession that requires you to risk you life EVERY SINGLE DAY you go to work?

And I'm not talking about the known risks - when they go looking for a bad guy or surround a building with an armed suspect inside.

I'm talking about the officers that are killed doing a routine traffic stop or trying to break up a domestic dispute.

And finally, I would hope that those people out there that slam the police never place a single call for HELP to them!


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## ladylaw203

Lauri & The Gang said:


> As for people slamming the police - there are bad police officers just as their are good ones. There are also bad teachers, bad doctors, bad black people, bad white people, bad men, bad women ... need I go on?
> 
> You should not generalize an entire profession based on a few incidents.
> 
> !


Exactly. People are people. There is always a percentage of folks who are just jerks regardless of what they do for a living. For cops,that is why there is internal affairs division. To hopefully get rid of the jerks. 

Sometimes we first responders come off as jerks though and folks do not what kind of call we just left. We might have just taken a fighting spitting cursing drunk to jail, taken a report on an abused child, or knelt on the side of the road after a horrific accident and literally had someone die in front of us while we were begging them to not let go. Sometimes, even we hurt and have just had a bad night........


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## ladylaw203

On a lighter note McGyver,since you are new here,tell us about your dogs


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## Remione1

Not sure if it was asked but let's throw this scenario in the mix.

I'm sitting in my house & my dog goes tearing into the back yard at night barking like crazy. I grab my Glock 23 I keep near me at all times because I live in a bad neighborhood. I see a dog jumped my fence & fighting my dog, I shoot & kill it. It's a police dog... Now what? Do I get charged for defending my personal protection dog that I've put yrs of training & $$$ into? 

This goes into another question I've always wondered....... What if a cop is chasing someone through your dark back yard & doesn't announce himself & gets shot by the home owner. Can they be charged?


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