# How do I put my foot down to a highly-demanding male GSD?



## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Why is my dog this way?
When is enough really enough? 
:nono:Where is the line drawn between companion/working canine? 
:thinking:And how can I permanently and routinely establish boundaries?

Last November of 2012, I came across an abandoned 3.5 month old German Shepherd puppy that was given to me by a acquaintance that wanted nothing to do with the dog. 

I just happened to be in the neighborhood, and he literally asked me if I just wanted to take him in because he wasn't 'good enough' to be a 'tough fighting dog'. Fearing bait dog abuse and neglect, I took the little guy in, and since then he's never left my side.

Wolfbane is my first intact-male GSD, I've never owned or have had any experience with the breed, and now he is a year and two months old with an dominant - almost borderline aggressive attitude to match it. I can no longer control him, nor my other dog, and they doesn't listen to me one bit. Now my other dog, Bear, is replicating Wolf's behavior. 

Here is a breakdown:

Little Bear 
Neutered 60lbs
2 Years Old
Passive Submissive 
Pit Bull x Bully Breed

Wolfbane
Intact 80-90lbs 
14 Months Old
Dominant 
German Shepherd Dog

DAILY P R O B L E M S

* They're easily distracted, easily excited, and have no focus 

* Getting over excited around kids and elderly and can't contain the energy

* Jumping on everyone whenever they want and repeating until 'seen'

* Does not obey any commands and will even bark back at you 

* Pulls on the leash in all directions, walking in front of me or criss crossing

* Peeing/Pooping where ever they please while during a walk 

* Barking and whining to get what they want for long periods of time

* Constantly on edge, ready to 'DART' to get what they want at any time

* Barking/Growling/Mounting people toys, attention, food, etc.. 

* Putting paws on my arm, chest, face, hands, legs

* Leaning and positioning themselves between my legs until 'seen'

* Darting to food, outside, when let out of crate, when going for a drive

* No patience for training, highly food driven, but they look at the food

* Baring teeth or 'one tooth' at me while slightly growling when told "NO"

* GSD uncontrollable and very loud 'groan moan heavy noticeable sighs* 

* Chasing wildlife (we live in the forest w/Bears, Elk, Cougar, Eagles, etc)

* Eye stare downs - will actually stare at you until they get something 

* 'Acting' anxious, fearful, nervous when given an undesired command

* When verbally corrected, they 'stem' off my eye contact, as if they're saying, 'Oh she looked at me! Ah ha I win!' and will repeat the negative behavior to get me to look again. But will not obey my commands to stop. 

* NO FOCUS NO FOCUS NO FOCUS! 

Now, when I try dealing with my dogs, I get so frustrated constantly trying to keep them in line that my chest gets tight, I can't breathe, I get so unfocused, stressed, anxious, nervous, and now fearful that my GSD is getting ready to bite to get what he wants.

Don't get me wrong, I just grasped the benefits and concept for training and I'm very new at it...but every time I try a new technique in public I would get scolded by that 'one person' who thinks every dog is just the way it is and should be allowed to do what it pleases, or aka 'be a dog.'

It's frustrating trying to create a balance and no one is on the same page, no one helps me out, no one listens to me when I try to train my dogs, and no one respects my boundaries when I say, 'Hey, I'm working here. Please do not distract my dog.' In turn, I give in to peer pressure and my dogs are wildly uncontrollable. 

My supreme goal is to be a Dog Trainer, but how can I when my own Pack is completely out of whack?! What do I do? Where do I start? How do I catch myself from not making mistakes? And how can I rebalance and reestablish my Pack?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

What are the dogs like when you walk into the house? Do they get overly excited. When I began to manage the meeting ritual I felt I started to have a lot more control over my dogs. 

Here are some useful threads where i explain my theory on the meeting ritual. It is related to pack structure rather than training imo. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/305122-new-gsd-behavior-training-concerns.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...sic/316850-how-handle-separation-anxiety.html

I would recommend 'Cesar's way' by Cesar Millan, It is better than his other books and explains how to interact with you dog to produce a calm submissive dog. It is easy to understand and very helpful for novice handlers imo.

His mastering leadership videos are great too and pretty entertaining.
Here's the first lecture, there are more on youtube. If you need to find them let me know but i think they are easy to find.






I believe you can control these dogs but you need to change your approach. The dogs know that they can get to you and make you frustrated. You need to stay in control of your self and stop reacting to your dogs. They are dogs and they are below you.

You probably need to start bringing them for walks separately.

Also do something for your own well being like Tai chi or relaxation and meditation. These things help keep your mind balanced and then it is easier to control dogs. It is usually a mind game with annoying dogs. They know you don't know dog language so they use that to their advantage.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

Not meaning to criticize but, suggesting Cesar here is not a good idea. OP, look up NILIF. I think it will put you on the right track without causing you undue stress. Leadership requires calm confidence. As far as training goes, restart like you were working with a puppy, start with no distractions, other people are causing you stress so eliminate them from the equation until your confidence is better.

NILIF is awesome, and when they get pushy, crate. They will learn to behave to get what they want without you having to loose your cool.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Dudes mom, just wondering did you read one of his books or watch the mastering leadership videos?

I agree with some of NILIF but feel a deeper understanding of dogs and pack structure is required when dealing with such an extreme case as a dog intimidating it's owner. After reading 'Cesar's Way', I believe Cesar Millan provides this deeper understanding.


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## Dudes mom (Apr 25, 2013)

Madlab, I have watched the videos but not read the books.

The OP said he/she is inexperienced with GSDs and we all know they are different.  I believe that in order to get a handle on the goings on NILIF is a great start. He sounds very pushy and knows he has the upper hand. A trainers help would also be beneficial.

The OP didn't say they were and inexperienced dog owner so maybe the drive and intellegence of the GSD is more than what was expected. But I still stand by my opinion that Cesar Milan's methods are not for the inexperienced trainer, especially one who is intimidated by their own dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

A GSD is a dog first . The problems he has have nothing to do with being a GSD . They are typical of a who has not had any structure or limitations. Sounds like he has been running "wild" a pack of two .
Back to square one . Connection with owner . Management of freedom -- no chasing or hunting down wildlife , create a reward system , train one dog at a time not together . Visit a training club - does not have to be schutzhund -- basic heel , sit , down and stay -- CD , CDX type control .


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Trainer, Trainer , Trainer.

FInd a trainer with experience and have them either come to your home or you go to them, 

Work each dog separately..


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## Msmaria (Mar 2, 2013)

Lots of good advice. Since you want to be a dog trainer. Take a deep breath and see this as a could be positive. You have the opportunity to be your own customer. Working on your two dogs, not only gives you experience but also gives you an idea of how your customers may be feeling. 

Are free dog trainer classes available in your area? Or maybe a good dvd on training in the teqnique you prefer. Personally positive reinforcement and some correction is what works for me. Leerberg.com and you tube has some good training info. 

Good luck. Keep us updated.


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## KB007 (Aug 27, 2003)

I am by far no expert, but have had multiple dogs for over a decade. What you are describing is normal dog behavior - annoying behavior - but normal for an untrained dog. My first thought is that you need to separate the dogs until this problem is fixed, or at least improved. I dont mean separate as in rehome, but crate and rotate. Research NILIF on here and other positive training methods. 

Are you sure he knows the commands? For the longest time I thought Layla knew "sit" but what she knew was the treat in hand. So if I was telling her to sit without it she wouldnt - you have to ensure that the commands are known and understood by the dog before thinking they are just not listening.


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## KB007 (Aug 27, 2003)

_*I get so frustrated constantly trying to keep them in line that my chest gets tight, I can't breathe, I get so unfocused, stressed, anxious, nervous, and now fearful *_


Also wanted to point this out - your dogs are picking up on this and reacting in kind. I'm not criticizing you - I have been there and will probably be there again! - but for training to be effective the leader has to be calm, cool, and in control of the situation.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

_*I get so frustrated constantly trying to keep them in line that my chest gets tight, I can't breathe, I get so unfocused, stressed, anxious, nervous, and now fearful "*_


is you being overwhelmed . Baby steps . Separate the dogs . Put them into crates. Create a roomy kennel for each and rotate them. No more running around . Freedom is a privilege . 

Start by manners on leash. Moving with you without dragging or lurching or wrapping your legs with leash and the dog runs a circle around you. This may be what you experience at first.

You do need to work with someone , a trainer or class / club situation.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Where are you in Washington state? someone may be close and have recommendations for trainers.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I also agree with NILIF and think this is a good article by a respected police dog trainer. He calls out 'flooding', which is Cesar Milan's approach, as a last resort which can make the problem worse.

I doubt every dog Cesar "rehabs" winds up on TV. His techniques may work for some but not all. Not a fan. Only thing I agree with is that giving a dog enough exercise helps with a lot of problems.

Get a trainer and I would manage both dogs separate so they are not playing off each other.

http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Jerry-BradshawV4I2.pdf

While Mr Bradshaw uses the "Dominance" word, I particularly like this quote.

The key to turning around dominance problems 
is to gain the dog’s respect using your brain, not your 
hands. Reject the model of “Alpha” that you have been 
taught and had drilled into your head. You are not a dog, 
and your dog does not relate to you as a dog. Think of 
yourself as the “Super-Alpha.” You control all the dog’s 
resources, all of his activities, yet dogs are still able to 
push us around! Dogs don’t expect equality, so your job is 
to put all the odds in your favor. Imagine you are training 
a grizzly bear and not a dog. What would you do?


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Only thing I agree with is that giving a dog enough exercise helps with a lot of problems.


That pretty much shows you don't know his theories and presume you know from watching his show. Exercise alone doesn't do much for an excitable dog and can actually make it more excitable and uncontrollable unless done right.

His motto is 'Exercise, Discipline, Affection' in that order and explains the ideas behind this theory in his book

Here's a simple explanation of his terms
http://www.cesarsway.com/tips/basics/glossary-of-terms-from-cesars-way


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you have a highly demanding dog give him some highly
demanding training.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

MadLab, I did not say exercise alone solved the problems but that it was one thing I agreed with and that it HELPS.

There are plenty of Cesar threads on the forum. The OP can search, read, and research.

Actually, I have only watched a few shows, saw his flooding techniques, and knew he was not anyone I wanted to continue watching.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

I like how he talks about being calm and assertive, don't know if Eko notices or if it affects him in any way but it helps me out  I am a nervous person and forget to breathe sometimes lol.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Nothing in Life is Free

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

While this one is geared to Cairns and uses all the dominance language, it does spell out NILIF nicely. http://www.cairnrescue.com/docs/NILIF.pdf

Expect some rough days when this is first initiated.

Agree with others, completely separate these dogs except for maybe short controlled play periods in the backyard, first sign of acting out, they are put away. 

As far as people scolding you or peer pressure - absolutely ignore. If people can't respect your boundaries when out training, I don't have a problem of being rude about it.

Get a trainer involved ASAP. While there may not be any aggressive behavior, as you said, it can easily slip over into it. Look for a trainer specializing in aggressive dogs, besides training the dogs, they will train you to handle them - go for private classes. Costs more but will help you in the situations YOU are dealing with which will in turn help you regain confidence; then move to classes.


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Omg THANK YOU everyone for your advice and input, I bought/checked out all of the books suggested, saved all of the websites and videos to my bookmarks page, and I'm now researching some one on one trainers and training supplies. I'm still very new to this site and I'm replying by my iPhone, if I hit 'reply' does everyone get a notification that I did? Or does the 'quick reply' button notify the individual? I want to touch bases and respond in details about my progress so far to each person who replied but I'm not sure how this site works yet. An added photo of my Boys- Wolf ready to dart as usual...and Bear acting nervous for attention. OI VEY I got a lot of work to do


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SageDogs, all of your replies to this thread are visible to anyone.  Whether or not someone gets a notification that there are new replies depend on their settings. I choose not to get notifications, but I can easily see which threads I've replied to if I want to go back and see any updates.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Your dogs are super cute! 

I too think the problems you mentioned are just general dog problems not really german shepherd specific. A bunch of them are the same problems that my non-GSD fosters have too. Before I learned how to train a dog I thought my shepherd puppy was a wild child too. If you can find a nearby trainer to show you things, especially one on one, I think can really help a lot. Reading books and researching online helps but if you're just starting out to learn how to train a dog it really helps to have a good trainer show you. The important part here is a GOOD trainer. I took my time sitting in on various trainer sessions and reading and asking around before settling on my first trainer and it made a huge difference and directed me down the right path and gave me hope when I was once feeling desperate. Your doggie problems are really not terrible and a good trainer will be able to get you turned around and you'll be able to also see how smart your dogs are!


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## GSDsept-10-2011 (Oct 16, 2013)

They look like angels in the photo lol


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## PhoenixGuardian (Jul 10, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> you have a highly demanding dog give him some highly
> demanding training.


Part of the reason he is so demanding and hard to control is proably because his BRAIN needs work. This was really hard for me, because I thought for SURE I was giving Phoenix all that he needed, mentally and physically. Turns out I was wrong. He HAS to be doing something, learning something, at all times. You said your dogs are food motivated, is there anything else that "turns them on"? Maybe a ball or something? Just start small, baby steps, with obedience training. Keep sessions short, five minutes or so. Maybe try and teach him little silly tricks like turning a circle and what not. 
I saw that you said that you get frazzled and such when they start getting to be more of a handful. NOW THAT I CAN REEEEAAAAALLLLY relate to. I also want to become a professional dog trainer, but have pondered the question, how can I when my own dogs are so hard to control?!! Just calm yourself (easier said than done!) Count to ten and take a "fun break with your dog, just playing with them, or whatever they like, Then, if you think you and your dog is up for it, continue on with whatever your doing.
There! Maybe that made sense, maybe not, I hope it helped


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Who cares what other threads say about Ceasar? The guy can read dogs imo. The OP doesnt want to train for sport, I think for the average pet owner his basic concepts are easy to grasp and implement. 
Despite much of the misinformation on this and other forums his definition of dominance / submission is not the masochistic nonsense most people try to portray it as. Actually READ his books where he explains his theory behind his practice in detail and a lot of it makes complete sense.

If you want technical training instruction I would check out Michael Ellis as his videos are good and easy to follow.


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## Anyu (Jan 9, 2013)

Pits are also a high drive working dog breed. Willing to please & not one to back down. They need just as much mental stimulation & sometimes a bit more supervision. These are two very demanding breeds for a new owner. Remember to work your pit as much as your shepherd. I have owned & worked with both of these breeds for a little over 6 yrs & I still have hiccup issues. =) Everything I was going to say has already been said, haha. Very helpful people here. Let me know if I can give you any specifics on pits.


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

GSDsept-10-2011 said:


> They look like angels in the photo lol


Oh darling lol, do not be fooled 
These little monsters surrreeeee know how to push every single button I got. But then again...they're soooo sweet when they sleep lol


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

carmspack said:


> A GSD is a dog first . The problems he has have nothing to do with being a GSD . They are typical of a who has not had any structure or limitations. Sounds like he has been running "wild" a pack of two .
> Back to square one . Connection with owner . Management of freedom -- no chasing or hunting down wildlife , create a reward system , train one dog at a time not together . Visit a training club - does not have to be schutzhund -- basic heel , sit , down and stay -- CD , CDX type control .


Gotcha, what you said totally makes sense since Wolf is the one who 'leads the pack' or craps where he wants when he wants. Going back to basics and square one...now where to start is the question


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Who cares what other threads say about Ceasar? The guy can read dogs imo. The OP doesnt want to train for sport, I think for the average pet owner his basic concepts are easy to grasp and implement.
> Despite much of the misinformation on this and other forums his definition of dominance / submission is not the masochistic nonsense most people try to portray it as. Actually READ his books where he explains his theory behind his practice in detail and a lot of it makes complete sense.
> 
> If you want technical training instruction I would check out Michael Ellis as his videos are good and easy to follow.


I actually have to agree, I bought (3) of his books on my kindle, and some of the basic things he covers is really understandable to a new trainee. When I have tried looking for trainers, most of them down talk him because of his tv show, but 'Be the Pack Leader' actually helps me more than just my dog work. I took a look at Michael Ellis and hopefully I can get my hands on his DVDs without burning a hole in my wallet, but his YT Videos are some really helpful highly detailed stuff!  


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Anyu said:


> Pits are also a high drive working dog breed. Willing to please & not one to back down. They need just as much mental stimulation & sometimes a bit more supervision. These are two very demanding breeds for a new owner. Remember to work your pit as much as your shepherd. I have owned & worked with both of these breeds for a little over 6 yrs & I still have hiccup issues. =) Everything I was going to say has already been said, haha. Very helpful people here. Let me know if I can give you any specifics on pits.


Oh I will, I'm going to figure out this iPhone App Inbox thing because I do have a few questions about my pit 


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

KB007 said:


> I am by far no expert, but have had multiple dogs for over a decade. What you are describing is normal dog behavior - annoying behavior - but normal for an untrained dog. My first thought is that you need to separate the dogs until this problem is fixed, or at least improved. I dont mean separate as in rehome, but crate and rotate. Research NILIF on here and other positive training methods.
> 
> Are you sure he knows the commands? For the longest time I thought Layla knew "sit" but what she knew was the treat in hand. So if I was telling her to sit without it she wouldnt - you have to ensure that the commands are known and understood by the dog before thinking they are just not listening.


Oh wow, now that you said that I'm thinking about how my dogs only listen when I have a treat, and not any time after that. I'm taking everyones advice on their breed specific needs and going back to basics. It seems that my dogs are not familiar with their commands as I thought, and I am going to research that right now!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You have a few good things going. The dogs seem to get along together and are able to sit next to each other for you to take a picture. They seem to be sound dogs; just without training. Work them gently but consistently, separately, tons of structured exercise and limited free play time together, kinda like recess in school and good chew toys in their own crates (install crate time a few times a day for one or two hours to calm them down).
I would sign up for a class or better, two classes with each dog in a class by itself with you. A basic obedience class will do for now. Make sure before you go to class that you have exercised the dog or he won't be able to think straight once he sees all the distractions. Check out Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Dog Training Resources and go to Trainer Search for a trainer in your area.
Once you start implementing the new rules, you should see a major change within a week. Be aware that your GSD might need some convincing that you are serious about this and he may throw in the towel at one point. But stay the course without being harsh. He is also an adolescent so you have your hands full, but this looks very do-able to me.
As a trainer I enjoy working with inexperienced owners as they don't have ingrained patterns to get away from.
Smile; you have two healthy dogs and a ton of fun ahead of you!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

OP just something else to think about when training and finding a trainer. There are several training methods. IE: NILF (nothing in life is free); Positive Reinforcement/ negative punishment only; Compulsion/Coercive training. Everyone has an opinion as to which is the correct method or _not _the correct method. They are your dogs and only you know which you are comfortable with. Some methods take longer to achieve the desired goal than others. One method may work for one dog but not the other. 
Research the different methods and be sure to ask any trainer you think about hiring or going to what method they use so you can be comfortable with them and their methods before you pay. 
That said: I am a believer in all three methods. NILF should always be the case but some does need more. I start with treat training and fad the lure (treat). Once I know the dog knows the command or rule and does not comply compulsion correction is used when needed. I totally recommend private sessions. Look at this way: the trainer isn't training your dog. You are paying the trainer to train *YOU* to train your dog(s). The trainer is showing you how to handle and manage your pet(s) individually. Once you have that knowledge the whole world can change for you and your dog(s).
I am no expert on training and is why I am currently paying for private training session. I end every session thanking my trainer for teaching *me* how to teach my dog be the best she can be. 
Remember you get out what you put in.
Best of Luck to you and your pack!


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## AugustGSD (Mar 29, 2013)

I think the first step is for you to relax. It sounds like you are very stressed, and I think your dogs sense that. Also, if you give into peer pressure, yet you are trying to train the dogs then they get mixed signals. When training in public try tying the yellow ribbon their leashes (this is suppose to signal to people to give your dog space), or maybe just tell them in a firm voice that you are training and walk away from the distraction if need be. 

August is my very first dog ever, and while he can be dominant, I don't take his crap. I ignore the behaviors, correct them, or when he gets really riled up I collar him and show him to his crate for a time out. Do not let Wolf be the pack leader, that's your job.


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Nigel said:


> Where are you in Washington state? someone may be close and have recommendations for trainers.


I actually just left and moved out of WA state :'(


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

All of these points are very valid, and my brain is overloading with information D: ahhhh!!! 

Well implementing all of the advice, research, and hunting for trainers have gone crazy this week. Already one trainer kicked Wolf in the face for laying down instead of sitting, did not go back. Trainer number two used a shock collar, muzzle, and prong with a face halter at the SAME TIME during a demo. Oh no. Not going to you. Trainer prospect number three, refuses working with 'aggressive breeds,' when both Wolf and Bear were more calm than his three year old approaching all the dogs in the class and swatting at their faces. 

I'm trying soooo hard, but the more I try and do the right thing I'm meeting a lot of off the wall ridiculously serious trainers with opposing viewpoints on what method a dog should be trained. I'm so over finding a trainer, I just don't trust I'll find what we need with what I just delt with over a weeks time. 


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Do not take your dog with you when checking out a trainer. Observe and if you like what you see, sign them up.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Didn't see anything to make me think "dominant" problems. They are just getting away with what you allow. 

They look at the food during training bc you show it to them. Learn and really understand marker training and that will disappear


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

MadLab said:


> His mastering leadership videos are great too and pretty entertaining.
> Here's the first lecture, there are more on youtube. If you need to find them let me know but i think they are easy to find.
> 
> I believe you can control these dogs but you need to change your approach. The dogs know that they can get to you and make you frustrated. You need to stay in control of your self and stop reacting to your dogs. They are dogs and they are below you.
> ...


I know it's been a while but thank you MadLab, I just got Cesars Way, Be the Pack Leader, A Member of the Family, and I'm saving 'Mastering Leadership' to my computer right now. I know some people are very anti-dog whisperer, but honestly some of his methods and theories are very elementary for me to pick up on. So I'm going to give it a shot


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Dudes mom said:


> Not meaning to criticize but, suggesting Cesar here is not a good idea. OP, look up NILIF. I think it will put you on the right track without causing you undue stress. Leadership requires calm confidence. As far as training goes, restart like you were working with a puppy, start with no distractions, other people are causing you stress so eliminate them from the equation until your confidence is better.
> 
> NILIF is awesome, and when they get pushy, crate. They will learn to behave to get what they want without you having to loose your cool.


Thank you Dudes Mom  But in a way I wouldn't discourage Cesar all together, because I like to pick and choose all sorts of methods from different trainers and their theories. But on the up side, I'm googling NILF right now, and I have decided to restart our whole process at home like I would a puppy. I noticed that even with the known commands and routines, that my dogs still treat and react to me out of pocket with the same words I use. But it's getting a lot worse because I personally think that since I've let them go on for so long doing what they please that they don't think I'm serious. So I'm kind of stuck, but you're right, complete non distracting re start. Here are some of my ideas : Create a new set of command words in Russian (I just love the language) I bought two new XL crates for them, and I'm on the hunt for as many training books/articles I can can get my hands on. 
Thank you for all of the love <3


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

carmspack said:


> A GSD is a dog first . The problems he has have nothing to do with being a GSD . They are typical of a who has not had any structure or limitations. Sounds like he has been running "wild" a pack of two .
> Back to square one . Connection with owner . Management of freedom -- no chasing or hunting down wildlife , create a reward system , train one dog at a time not together . Visit a training club - does not have to be schutzhund -- basic heel , sit , down and stay -- CD , CDX type control .


What's CD & CDX ?


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

carmspack said:


> _*I get so frustrated constantly trying to keep them in line that my chest gets tight, I can't breathe, I get so unfocused, stressed, anxious, nervous, and now fearful "*_
> 
> 
> is you being overwhelmed . Baby steps . Separate the dogs . Put them into crates. Create a roomy kennel for each and rotate them. No more running around . Freedom is a privilege .
> ...


Freedom is a privilege? How do I reinforce it? How do I get the point across to my dogs that being out of the crate is earned and not given
Or how do I make them work for getting out? Normally I feel awfully guilty putting them in their new crates...but oh boy...they needed those crates. And I love that they have their own den bedrooms


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> While Mr Bradshaw uses the "Dominance" word, I particularly like this quote.
> *
> The key to turning around dominance problems
> is to gain the dog’s respect using your brain, not your
> ...


I'm printing this out and putting it on our fridge, I needed to read this. I've been mixing up the personal value I have placed on my dogs because I love them so much, with the unstable level of pack order and equality that I established in my home. Oh man I have a lot of work to do. Now I feel stupid, I love my dogs like they were my own kids, but I keep failing to accept that their psychology is way different from ours. How do I get past that without feeling so guilty?


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

doggiedad said:


> you have a *highly demanding dog* give him some *highly
> demanding training*.


What do you consider highly demanding training? The methods? Commands? Tasks? Expectations? Please explain, I'm not sure if my training expectations are too high or too low, and I just realized that none of my dogs have been taking me seriously when it comes to training in general or house/public etiquette. 

It's like when I work with one of them, the other will get jealous and howl, bark, whine, the works. And when I try and correct them...nothing works. NOTHING. They don't take me seriously and I can't help feel but them having a lack of respect. Do dogs see that way too? 

What do you consider the training and working expectation levels of a 15 month old pup? What should I expect from him when working together? And how can I gain respect while giving it back without having to lower myself to get them to listen?


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Twyla said:


> *As far as people scolding you or peer pressure - absolutely ignore. If people can't respect your boundaries when out training, I don't have a problem of being rude about it.*


But how can I even set boundaries with people if I can't even set boundaries with my dogs? I've noticed yesterday when working, a more experienced dog trainer scolded me in public for my opposite view on training. I didn't even ask. She just waltzed up to us while we were at the dog park, asked their names, told her I was aspiring to become a trainer and I just started a few methods, then BAM! Ridicule in front of everyone. People were laughing and pointing at me and it's so hard not to react emotionally. 

How do I be firm to others with opposing views? I mean, every one has different tastes in training right? Who are they to walk up to me and bark orders when they know nothing of my personal journey with my dogs?


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Springbrz said:


> OP just something else to think about when training and finding a trainer. There are several training methods. IE: NILF (nothing in life is free); Positive Reinforcement/ negative punishment only; Compulsion/Coercive training. Everyone has an opinion as to which is the correct method or _not _the correct method. They are your dogs and only you know which you are comfortable with. Some methods take longer to achieve the desired goal than others. One method may work for one dog but not the other.
> Research the different methods and be sure to ask any trainer you think about hiring or going to what method they use so you can be comfortable with them and their methods before you pay.
> That said: I am a believer in all three methods. NILF should always be the case but some does need more. I start with treat training and fad the lure (treat). Once I know the dog knows the command or rule and does not comply compulsion correction is used when needed. I totally recommend private sessions. Look at this way: the trainer isn't training your dog. You are paying the trainer to train *YOU* to train your dog(s). The trainer is showing you how to handle and manage your pet(s) individually. Once you have that knowledge the whole world can change for you and your dog(s).
> I am no expert on training and is why I am currently paying for private training session. I end every session thanking my trainer for teaching *me* how to teach my dog be the best she can be.
> ...


With the information you and this community gives me, you all are experts in my eyes! Lol thank you, I wrote down the methods you mentioned and added them on to my reading list, I'll keep you all posted with our progress, I'm considering making a video/blog channel to keep me inspired and motivated.


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

AugustGSD said:


> I think the first step is for you to relax. It sounds like you are very stressed, and I think your dogs sense that. Also, if you give into peer pressure, yet you are trying to train the dogs then they get mixed signals.* When training in public try tying the yellow ribbon their leashes (this is suppose to signal to people to give your dog space), or maybe just tell them in a firm voice that you are training and walk away from the distraction if need be. *
> 
> August is my very first dog ever, and while he can be dominant, I don't take his crap. I ignore the behaviors, correct them, or when he gets really riled up I collar him and show him to his crate for a time out. Do not let Wolf be the pack leader, that's your job.


Does the yellow ribbon really work? I was actually considering getting a t-shirt or hoodie that said some form of dog training in progress please give space, but I don't want to come off as them being aggressive dogs. Since people already think that they are because of their looks and not their hearts. 

And how do you correct August? What are some methods that work for you and get the point across to him? Because every time I correct Wolf, I can see it in his eyes just, "Sit? Listen? Ha. Yea right. I remember my first beer."

Getting them do to a trick for a treat. No problem. 
Correcting? Nothing has worked so far. They just simply don't take me seriously.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

SageDogs said:


> Well implementing all of the advice, research, and hunting for trainers have gone crazy this week. Already one trainer kicked Wolf in the face for laying down instead of sitting, did not go back. Trainer number two used a shock collar, muzzle, and prong with a face halter at the SAME TIME during a demo. Oh no. Not going to you. Trainer prospect number three, refuses working with 'aggressive breeds,' when both Wolf and Bear were more calm than his three year old approaching all the dogs in the class and swatting at their faces.
> 
> I'm trying soooo hard, but the more I try and do the right thing I'm meeting a lot of off the wall ridiculously serious trainers with opposing viewpoints on what method a dog should be trained. I'm so over finding a trainer, I just don't trust I'll find what we need with what I just delt with over a weeks time.


Yikes! I'm in the Bay Area too, and there are TONS of great trainers and facilities here. 

What part of the Bay area are you in? You can PM me if you like. I'd also be interested in who the trainers are that you described above.


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## SageDogs (Oct 6, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yikes! I'm in the Bay Area too, and there are TONS of great trainers and facilities here.
> 
> What part of the Bay area are you in? You can PM me if you like. I'd also be interested in who the trainers are that you described above.


I'll be in SF off of Geary by this upcoming Tuesday, so I'd love to take a look and meet some amazing trainers! 
And I wouldn't mind sharing the information of some not so great trainers, I actually considered taking them to court because I caught it on video, but I'd rather just leave an honest review and move on. 

Can't wait! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sent you a PM!


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## LoveSea (Aug 21, 2011)

First of all get him neutered. I heard that makes a big difference, but is not going to solve your issues. They need to be crated when they behave bad & soon will learn that there are consequenses. They are very smart animals!

I agree to use NILF. Have them perform a command before they go out, eat, etc. Cesar is great, I love his advice, but don't take his advice to alpha roll a dog - I don't agree with that & it is very very dangerous. 

My trainer taught me to bump my dogs with my legs. You do not walk around them, they have to move. When I go down or up the stairs & they try to pass me I stop them with my legs so they cant pass me, they have to wait & I go up first. They used to almost knock me down when going up & down the stairs. When you answer the door & they try to answer for you, you claim your space by kneeing them, having them back away so you can answer. You have to make yourself big. I am tiny & it worked so well with my dogs. 

When they jump do not give them any attention - jumping is looking for attention & even yelling is attention to them. I was taught to do a quick about turn & ignore them. An uh-uh along with it worked for my dogs. They never jump anymore. A dog that mounts is trying to be dominant. Immediately stop a dog that tries to mount someone. If you have guests you should leash the dogs until they learn how to behave properly. They are also unpredictable & could bite someone. Instruct guest to turn when your dog jumps. All guests should show "no touch/no talk/no eye contact" with the dogs when first coming into your home. I put up a sign on my door to guests & they really respected that. 

Do you have a prong collar? That worked wonders for me. You need to be able to correct their bad behaviors. The German ones are the best. My dogs are both leash reactive to other dogs & I have learned to distract them the second I see them start to focus - eye contact - I bump them. Then I keep walking by the dog fast & keep them focused. 

I think you need a good trainer to help you. My trainer helped me so much. 

Another good thing to teach them is go to place or go lay down. That works very well. When you have guests or they are in your way that command is great. Last advice is to keep your energy relaxed & calm - don't talk in high pitched excited baby talk voices. You don't know how many people do that to my dogs & it makes them crazy hyper!! Not saying you do that, but just had to add that in case!

Sorry for going on & on. I just totally feel for you & I know how hard it is to train a dog & it is a lot of work so please don't give up. You have to show strong leader energy. Try to relax & be calm. Dogs pick up on your energy, if you are sad, scared, etc. - they are so keen to our energy it is eerie! 

Good luck & let us know how it goes. My dogs had issues & I was very self conscious, not tough enough, but I am learning how to be the leader & feel so good about our progress now! Now if I can just get my dog to stop chasing his tail......


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## LoveSea (Aug 21, 2011)

Sorry my response was so long & hope it did not come out too preachy. I just wanted to share some of the things I learned. A year ago I adopted a fearful very abused, neglected male. It took months for him to finally trust my husband. He is still skittish & very attached to me, but I have learned so much & am still learning.

I have to tell people that my dog does not greet well. He nipped someone when I first got him & the trainer said from then on walks are just walks - not time to meet people. He was such a challenge due to his fear & trust issues. You can get them a vest that says "in training" & just politely say to people as you keep walking "my dogs are in training". Don't worry what others think. I know it is hard because German Shepherds are so harshly judged, but they are a protective breed. I never heard of the yellow ribbon.


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## LoveSea (Aug 21, 2011)

wasn't able to edit, last piece of advice....Another addition to the walk is to practice "about turns". That is when you are walking down the street & quickly, without pause, do a military turn. It surprises the dog & teaches him to look to you for direction. Mine pulled my arm off on walks! You can practice in your own yard, in a park, even in the house if you feel silly doing it on the street. Also do quick, non pausing turns left, right, etc. The dog has to look to you to lead the way & it really works with practice. I had to walk both my dogs seperately for a few months, due to the two of them being so dog reactive on a leash. Once I was able to control each dog alone, I started taking them together again. It is a pain in the neck & time consuming to have to walk them one at a time, but it works & is important. Now I walk them together, I know the signs & situations that gets them crazy & I can handle them now. It is so nice to finally enjoy a walk with my 2 dogs!

Also, I read in your post that when you are trying to train one dog the other gets crazy. Mine do that too. You have to seperate them & work with them seperately. That is what I had to do with my dogs. One on one training is the best way. Positive reinforcement usually works. When they act good, they get a treat. When they act bad, they don't. The other dog who is not getting the one on one training time will scream & whine & cry - just ignore it.

Again, this takes time & great patience & I know how hard & upsetting it is!!


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## rachel44 (6 mo ago)

SageDogs said:


> Why is my dog this way? When is enough really enough? :nono:Where is the line drawn between companion/working canine? :thinking:And how can I permanently and routinely establish boundaries? Last November of 2012, I came across an abandoned 3.5 month old German Shepherd puppy that was given to me by a acquaintance that wanted nothing to do with the dog. I just happened to be in the neighborhood, and he literally asked me if I just wanted to take him in because he wasn't 'good enough' to be a 'tough fighting dog'. Fearing bait dog abuse and neglect, I took the little guy in, and since then he's never left my side. Wolfbane is my first intact-male GSD, I've never owned or have had any experience with the breed, and now he is a year and two months old with an dominant - almost borderline aggressive attitude to match it. I can no longer control him, nor my other dog, and they doesn't listen to me one bit. Now my other dog, Bear, is replicating Wolf's behavior. Here is a breakdown: Little Bear Neutered 60lbs 2 Years Old Passive Submissive Pit Bull x Bully Breed Wolfbane Intact 80-90lbs 14 Months Old Dominant German Shepherd Dog DAILY P R O B L E M S * They're easily distracted, easily excited, and have no focus * Getting over excited around kids and elderly and can't contain the energy * Jumping on everyone whenever they want and repeating until 'seen' * Does not obey any commands and will even bark back at you * Pulls on the leash in all directions, walking in front of me or criss crossing * Peeing/Pooping where ever they please while during a walk * Barking and whining to get what they want for long periods of time * Constantly on edge, ready to 'DART' to get what they want at any time * Barking/Growling/Mounting people toys, attention, food, etc.. * Putting paws on my arm, chest, face, hands, legs * Leaning and positioning themselves between my legs until 'seen' * Darting to food, outside, when let out of crate, when going for a drive * No patience for training, highly food driven, but they look at the food * Baring teeth or 'one tooth' at me while slightly growling when told "NO" * GSD uncontrollable and very loud 'groan moan heavy noticeable sighs* * Chasing wildlife (we live in the forest w/Bears, Elk, Cougar, Eagles, etc) * Eye stare downs - will actually stare at you until they get something * 'Acting' anxious, fearful, nervous when given an undesired command * When verbally corrected, they 'stem' off my eye contact, as if they're saying, 'Oh she looked at me! Ah ha I win!' and will repeat the negative behavior to get me to look again. But will not obey my commands to stop. * NO FOCUS NO FOCUS NO FOCUS! Now, when I try dealing with my dogs, I get so frustrated constantly trying to keep them in line that my chest gets tight, I can't breathe, I get so unfocused, stressed, anxious, nervous, and now fearful that my GSD is getting ready to bite to get what he wants. Don't get me wrong, I just grasped the benefits and concept for training and I'm very new at it...but every time I try a new technique in public I would get scolded by that 'one person' who thinks every dog is just the way it is and should be allowed to do what it pleases, or aka 'be a dog.' It's frustrating trying to create a balance and no one is on the same page, no one helps me out, no one listens to me when I try to train my dogs, and no one respects my boundaries when I say, 'Hey, I'm working here. Please do not distract my dog.' In turn, I give in to peer pressure and my dogs are wildly uncontrollable. My supreme goal is to be a Dog Trainer, but how can I when my own Pack is completely out of whack?! What do I do? Where do I start? How do I catch myself from not making mistakes? And how can I rebalance and reestablish my Pack?





SageDogs said:


> Why is my dog this way? When is enough really enough? :nono:Where is the line drawn between companion/working canine? :thinking:And how can I permanently and routinely establish boundaries? Last November of 2012, I came across an abandoned 3.5 month old German Shepherd puppy that was given to me by a acquaintance that wanted nothing to do with the dog. I just happened to be in the neighborhood, and he literally asked me if I just wanted to take him in because he wasn't 'good enough' to be a 'tough fighting dog'. Fearing bait dog abuse and neglect, I took the little guy in, and since then he's never left my side. Wolfbane is my first intact-male GSD, I've never owned or have had any experience with the breed, and now he is a year and two months old with an dominant - almost borderline aggressive attitude to match it. I can no longer control him, nor my other dog, and they doesn't listen to me one bit. Now my other dog, Bear, is replicating Wolf's behavior. Here is a breakdown: Little Bear Neutered 60lbs 2 Years Old Passive Submissive Pit Bull x Bully Breed Wolfbane Intact 80-90lbs 14 Months Old Dominant German Shepherd Dog DAILY P R O B L E M S * They're easily distracted, easily excited, and have no focus * Getting over excited around kids and elderly and can't contain the energy * Jumping on everyone whenever they want and repeating until 'seen' * Does not obey any commands and will even bark back at you * Pulls on the leash in all directions, walking in front of me or criss crossing * Peeing/Pooping where ever they please while during a walk * Barking and whining to get what they want for long periods of time * Constantly on edge, ready to 'DART' to get what they want at any time * Barking/Growling/Mounting people toys, attention, food, etc.. * Putting paws on my arm, chest, face, hands, legs * Leaning and positioning themselves between my legs until 'seen' * Darting to food, outside, when let out of crate, when going for a drive * No patience for training, highly food driven, but they look at the food * Baring teeth or 'one tooth' at me while slightly growling when told "NO" * GSD uncontrollable and very loud 'groan moan heavy noticeable sighs* * Chasing wildlife (we live in the forest w/Bears, Elk, Cougar, Eagles, etc) * Eye stare downs - will actually stare at you until they get something * 'Acting' anxious, fearful, nervous when given an undesired command * When verbally corrected, they 'stem' off my eye contact, as if they're saying, 'Oh she looked at me! Ah ha I win!' and will repeat the negative behavior to get me to look again. But will not obey my commands to stop. * NO FOCUS NO FOCUS NO FOCUS! Now, when I try dealing with my dogs, I get so frustrated constantly trying to keep them in line that my chest gets tight, I can't breathe, I get so unfocused, stressed, anxious, nervous, and now fearful that my GSD is getting ready to bite to get what he wants. Don't get me wrong, I just grasped the benefits and concept for training and I'm very new at it...but every time I try a new technique in public I would get scolded by that 'one person' who thinks every dog is just the way it is and should be allowed to do what it pleases, or aka 'be a dog.' It's frustrating trying to create a balance and no one is on the same page, no one helps me out, no one listens to me when I try to train my dogs, and no one respects my boundaries when I say, 'Hey, I'm working here. Please do not distract my dog.' In turn, I give in to peer pressure and my dogs are wildly uncontrollable. My supreme goal is to be a Dog Trainer, but how can I when my own Pack is completely out of whack?! What do I do? Where do I start? How do I catch myself from not making mistakes? And how can I rebalance and reestablish my Pack?


 Neuter him. There are already to many pups mistreated/ abused in this world. What a horrible guy that acquaintance is, thanks for saving him.


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## rachel44 (6 mo ago)

SageDogs said:


> Why is my dog this way?
> When is enough really enough?
> :nono:Where is the line drawn between companion/working canine?
> :thinking:And how can I permanently and routinely establish boundaries?
> ...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Neutering will accomplish nothing. And you are replying to a thread from 2013. Most of the posters are long gone form the board.


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