# Help! My Mother wants to buy from a BYB!



## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

My mother wants to get a puppy, which I think would be great for her. However, she does not want to pay the amount necessary to get a pup from a responsible breeder. I definitely understand that, but she doesn't want to get a shelter pup, either. 

She wants a young (8-weeks-ish) purebred puppy.

She seems to think there is nothing wrong with getting a puppy from a "breeder" in the local newspaper, and I can't seem to convince her otherwise.

Advice? Please?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anitsisqua said:


> My mother wants to get a puppy, which I think would be great for her. However, she does not want to pay the amount necessary to get a pup from a responsible breeder. I definitely understand that, but she doesn't want to get a shelter pup, either.
> 
> She wants a young (8-weeks-ish) purebred puppy.
> 
> ...


That is how I got all of mine And so do lots of other people everywhere


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

Well...all you can really do is educate her. She's going to do what she's going to do..but maybe if the pup starts having issues, she'll listen. Sad truth. Not every BYB pup is bad, I will admit that. However, because they tend to care less about temperaments and health, it's sort of a crapshoot.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

llombardo said:


> That is how I got all of mine And so do lots of other people everywhere


I'm glad yours have turned out well, but I'm kinda nervous about her getting dog from a breeder that doesn't look into the dogs they are breeding or take proper care of the puppies...and then buying from one of them only encourages them, continuing the cycle. It's kinda upsetting me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> That is how I got all of mine And so do lots of other people everywhere


And that's what keeps shelters and rescues in business 

llomb, I hate to burst your bubble but these puppies are the prime candidates for being sold to people who misunderstand them, the only important thing to these "breeders" is the $$. We have rescued so many of these poorly bred...or "poorbreds" as we've come to know them as...that have been purchased as cute fuzzy puppies and then tossed out the door as soon as the puppy got 8-10mos., and the owner has done nothing in the way of training or socialization. 

Today, at the shelter, we were shown a pup of about that age, 10mos. or so, the family pulled up and tied him to the shelter fence, poured him a bowl of food and drove away. There he sat, shivering and afraid, in the shelter. All I could say was, "I bet he was a really cute puppy, though, huh??"

I would never encourage people to purchase these byb products, some pups luck out but the majority wind up dumped (wilderness), in shelters or worse.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

iBaman said:


> Well...all you can really do is educate her. She's going to do what she's going to do..but maybe if the pup starts having issues, she'll listen. Sad truth. Not every BYB pup is bad, I will admit that. However, because they tend to care less about temperaments and health, it's sort of a crapshoot.


I definitely agree that they're not all bad...but the people she's talking to...they don't seem to test their dogs and get all evasive about the veterinary/medical care of their puppies. 

I think she is just asking for trouble, and I hope it doesn't take having a puppy with severe medical problems to see that.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

Oh! if your mom is set on a 'poorbred'...maybe you should take her to the pound or a rescue. They're all the same thing anyways.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

iBaman said:


> Oh! if your mom is set on a 'poorbred'...maybe you should take her to the pound or a rescue. They're all the same thing anyways.


I've tried to get her to consider rescues and shelters, but she's set on a little puppy, like I'm getting, and people don't seem to surrender their pups until they're a little older and some of the cute has rubbed off.


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

try a rescue. they get quite a few pups...she just might have to wait a little bit. maybe the price tag on these dogs will get her, if she's going for cheap


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Pet adoption: Want a dog or cat? Adopt a pet on Petfinder :thumbup:


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

Definitely talk her out of it. Buying from a BYB is what I regret the most. First reason why I regret it is because I have no pedigree for her. No history of where she came from or her ancestry. Another is that I don't know the health problems that her parents might have had which is a major concern for me. I've been lucky so far (Knock on wood) but I definitely won't take that chance again. All you can do is just educate her. I'll admit, I was just looking for a low priced puppy back then but after joining this forum, I've learned a lot.

I've seen a lot of puppies on the urgent, non-urgent adoption listings. You can find them there as well.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Show her that site Petfinder. Shelters and rescues do indeed get puppies, sadly people dump whole litters! 

I would definitely talk her out of it. Going to a good breeder or good rescue/shelter will stack the odds in your favor in regards to temperament or health.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> And that's what keeps shelters and rescues in business
> 
> llomb, I hate to burst your bubble but these puppies are the prime candidates for being sold to people who misunderstand them, the only important thing to these "breeders" is the $$. We have rescued so many of these poorly bred...or "poorbreds" as we've come to know them as...that have been purchased as cute fuzzy puppies and then tossed out the door as soon as the puppy got 8-10mos., and the owner has done nothing in the way of training or socialization.
> 
> ...



I am soooooo tired of hearing this. This has nothing to do with puppies and everything to do with the idiots that buy them and don't know how to take care of them. In my circle, we don't have these issues and none of the dogs have medical issues because someone didn't pay thousands of dollars for them. Most breeds are prone to certain medical issues and I've seen $5000.00 dogs get HD, so I really blame the government, the counties, and anyone else that has a say and can do something about all the homeless animals. Everyone is worried about banning this dog or that one, but why don't we just start with something as simple as spay/neuter? So lets all go out and pay hundreds or thousands of dollars on a dog(that there is no guarantees will stay healthy-there are lots of diseases that any dog can get that aren't genetic) when there are perfectly good dogs out there, that as you say will end up in the shelter anyway....Thanks but no thanks, I will save a life any time that I can. With the economy the way it is right now at this moment, most dogs are given up because the owner lost their job, their home, etc...so it wouldn't matter where the dog came from, if they can't afford it they can't afford it.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

If they can't afford the price of a quality puppy, they most likely can't afford the price of quality food or vet care. 

Also, if the pup is cheap, it will more easily be viewed as a disposable commodity. First sign of trouble, dump it!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Falkosmom said:


> *If they can't afford the price of a quality puppy, they most likely can't afford the price of quality food or vet care.
> *
> Also, if the pup is cheap, it will more easily be viewed as a disposable commodity. First sign of trouble, dump it!


THIS! But then again its not true. My family and I paid $25.00. Of course my parents didn't want to spend alot of money on a dog, but we wanted to make sure we have enough funds to care for the dog if anything bad happened.

But then again I have known people who would get a cheap dog and not have enough money for a simple vaccine.

At least those who go through a good shelter or rescue have the first set of vaccines, microchipping, spay/neutering done, and much more.

At the rescue I volunteer for we have a sign that is the "Checklist" for having a dog or cat, giving the potential owners an idea of what to expect and to know before acquiring a dog. Most shelters and rescues I know do something similar to ensure the animal goes to a good home.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> If they can't afford the price of a quality puppy, they most likely can't afford the price of quality food or vet care.
> 
> Also, if the pup is cheap, it will more easily be viewed as a disposable commodity. First sign of trouble, dump it!


That is rude and ignorant to say. That is NOT true. My dogs are what YOU would call or consider not a quality puppy/dog and there dog food runs me about $80 a month, they get shots every year, hw medications and tests, flea medication monthly and obedience school..I have seen(numerous times) $1000.00 dogs come into a vet that has parvo and the owner chooses to let it go, because that is damaged goods and they can buy another "healthy" pup instead of investing more money and saving the one they have....DON'T PUT ALL PEOPLE IN THIS CATEGORY, I CHOOSE NOT TO PAY TONS OF MONEY FOR A DOG, ITS NOT A MATTER OF BEING TO ABLE TO AFFORD IT-ITS ABOUT WHAT YOU DO WITH THEM FOR THE NEXT 12-15 YEARS. I don't influence people if they choose to go to a breeder and spend that kind of money and I certainly don't expect someone that prefers this to look down on people that have a different opinion about where they choose to get there dogs.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

Falkosmom said:


> If they can't afford the price of a quality puppy, they most likely can't afford the price of quality food or vet care.
> 
> Also, if the pup is cheap, it will more easily be viewed as a disposable commodity. First sign of trouble, dump it!


That is NOT true. My mom has only ever gotten rid of one dog ever, and it was because she was told he would grow to be about 30lbs, and he topped out at 80 and was way too big for where we were living at the time. She found a new home for him with a lovely couple that took good care of him. She loves dogs, she just doesn't think she should spend so much on one. Please don't equate cheap with cruel. This IS my mother we're talking about.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Please reread my post. I said "likely" and "more easily viewed as". 

I did not say every and all. And I am a firm believer that the best food or best vet care etc does not always make for the best home. Sometimes love means more.

Please do not put words in my mouth.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> everything to do with the idiots that buy them and don't know how to take care of them


.

Um. Exactly my point! BYBs do not care if the new owner can or can't afford them, and most the time they can't. 

Your post talks about "saving" dogs, but you buy them from bybs, that's not 
"saving", that's lining byb's pockets. Petstores and BYBs stay in business because people feel sorry for the poor puppies, and the puppy mills and bybs laugh all the way to the bank.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

llombardo said:


> That is rude and ignorant to say. That is NOT true. My dogs are what YOU would call or consider not a quality puppy/dog and there dog food runs me about $80 a month, they get shots every year, hw medications and tests, flea medication monthly and obedience school..I have seen(numerous times) $1000.00 dogs come into a vet that has parvo and the owner chooses to let it go, because that is damaged goods and they can buy another "healthy" pup instead of investing more money and saving the one they have....DON'T PUT ALL PEOPLE IN THIS CATEGORY, I CHOOSE NOT TO PAY TONS OF MONEY FOR A DOG, ITS NOT A MATTER OF BEING TO ABLE TO AFFORD IT-ITS ABOUT WHAT YOU DO WITH THEM FOR THE NEXT 12-15 YEARS.


I would much rather give my money to a reputable breeder, rescue or shelter than some BYB.

And yes it is true IN SOME CASES. I have known people who won't spend a lot on a dog, but don't take care of their dogs. I have a friend who I know who got her Lab from a BYB, the dog is overweight, not walked, not trained, not groomed. He is super sweet but no well cared for. She also has a dog that they found as as stray. He is somewhat aggessive, untrained, not groomed(his coat is HORRIBLE AND HE SMELLS!) he has this black blob near his man parts, he has seen a vet since they got him. 

Yet her and her family can afford the latest cell phones, computers, cars, clothes, but can't pay for things to help their dog. I also have another friend who couldn't afford proper training, health care, grooming or better living conditons yet she could afford to go to nice restaurants, and other material items.

I'd much rather send my money to someplace where its put to good use.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> .
> 
> Um. Exactly my point! BYBs do not care if the new owner can or can't afford them, and most the time they can't.
> 
> ...


And there are no idiots they buy dogs from reputable breeders just to throw them away???...its a two way street. There are tons of dogs in the same situation no matter where they came from...Do you know how many ads I see for people trying to get rid of their AKC GSD's with papers and good bloodlines and health tested, they don't go back to the breeder with them, because they just don't bother. People just don't care


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I would much rather give my money to a reputable breeder, rescue or shelter than some BYB.


:thumbup:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> And there are no idiots they buy dogs from reputable breeders just to throw them away???...its a two way street. There are tons of dogs in the same situation no matter where they came from...Do you know how many ads I see for people trying to get rid of their AKC GSD's with papers and good bloodlines and health tested, they don't go back to the breeder with them, because they just don't bother. People just don't care


This is less true than you think. 
A well-bred dog that costs over $1000 is much less likely to wind up in a shelter - few and far between, but MUCH less likely for many reasons, much more than cost alone. 
Cost yes, but also the breeders maintain contact and there's contracts signed.

People want cheap pets (or pet store puppies) so there's no accountability. Good breeders (and good rescues) demand accountability. BYBs could care less.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> .
> 
> Um. Exactly my point! BYBs do not care if the new owner can or can't afford them, and most the time they can't.
> 
> ...


I agree completely. There is a pet store at a local mall. Of course the puppies are adorable, but they come from puppy mills and cost of WAAAAYY MORE outrageous prices than reputable breeders. I want to buy all those puppies at the pet store but I know that just means more $$ for the puppy mill and more room for them to pump out more puppies with regards to health and temperament.

Good breeders, rescues, and shelters care for the dogs that they have that means medical, behavioral, and so on.

BYBs and puppy mills don't. 

Also just because a dog is $5,000(If you actually looked at the prices of actual good breeders they are not $5,000. Working line GSDs are usuall $1,200-$1,500 and Showline GSDs are $1,200-$2,000) doesn't mean it came from a good breeder. Pet store puppies cost A LOT MORE than good breeder dogs, plus the money goes to the millers/bybs pocket. Whereas the money you give to a good breeder or rescue or shelter goes BACK TO THE DOGS!


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## iBaman (Oct 25, 2011)

Have your mom read this thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/180296-breeder-wants-dog-back.html

THAT'S why you don't go to BYB's.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

llombardo said:


> And there are no idiots they buy dogs from reputable breeders just to throw them away???...its a two way street. There are tons of dogs in the same situation no matter where they came from...Do you know how many ads I see for people trying to get rid of their AKC GSD's with papers and good bloodlines and health tested, they don't go back to the breeder with them, because they just don't bother. People just don't care



There are some BYBs who also have dogs that cost alot of money. 

The people who actually do their research and go to a real good breeder won't be send their dog to a shelter. Because they took the time to educate themselves on good breeders and everything about the dog.

Also BYBs tend to have dogs that are AKC register(AKC registered dog doesn't necessarily mean "good breeder").


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Also BYBs tend to have dogs that are AKC register(AKC registered dog doesn't necessarily mean "good breeder").


Yep...and oddly I meet many many people with ho-hum dogs w/"papers" (AKC) who feel they must breed their dog _simply because it has papers. _


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Yep...and oddly I meet many many people with ho-hum dogs w/"papers" (AKC) who feel they must breed their dog _simply because it has papers. _


 
I think I read that thread a time or two or ten! The ones with AKC papers, but no OFA, titles, health testing......


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

These are my BYB dogs and I couldn't be happier with them(or any of the ones I had in the past for that matter)...IMO they have exactly all the traits and temperaments of dogs that are the same breeds that cost more then triple then what I paid(About $500 for BOTH), I will not be arguing about this anymore because I will not change my mind ever 


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

llombardo said:


> These are my BYB dogs and I couldn't be happier with them(or any of the ones I had in the past for that matter)...IMO they have exactly all the traits and temperaments of dogs that are the same breeds that cost more then triple then what I paid(About $500 for BOTH), I will not be arguing about this anymore because I will not change my mind ever
> 
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


Thats wonderful!

I got my girl for $25.00 from a BYB and couldn't be happier, wouldn't trade her for anything, but next time around I won't be giving my money to line someone's pocket. 

All we are saying is use your money wisely.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

llombardo said:


> These are my BYB dogs and I couldn't be happier with them(or any of the ones I had in the past for that matter)...IMO they have exactly all the traits and temperaments of dogs that are the same breeds that cost more then triple then what I paid(About $500 for BOTH), I will not be arguing about this anymore because I will not change my mind ever
> 
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


I've mentioned my dog Banjoe before, but not by name. He was a Sheltie, with papers, purchased from a BYB and the sweetest dog you can imagine. At one year old, he developed epilepsy, and after a spell of seizures, he couldn't recognize anyone. He forgot all of his training, particularly his housebreaking. He had bad eyes and a poor digestive system (reoccuring bouts of pancreatitis). He seemed miserable, and so was I. That is my only experience with a BYB, and it was a traumatizing one. I am glad that your situation turned out well, but please know that there are many terrible ones as well.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

All I'm saying that just as there is a chance that dogs will have problems because they came from BYB's they have a chance of this with reputable breeders also...my trainer has a Rott that came from a reputable breeder and 3 in the litter have passed away due to a heart defect(by the time they were 8 months), the breeder claims that no one in the line had it, but it is genetic...so my trainer is out $1500 dollars to have her dog tested so she has peace of mind--What are the other choices, per the contract/warranty she can have another puppy if her dog has the heart defect, but does she want to give up her dog after 8mths? Nope, and most people wouldn't so the guarantee means nothing except now someone is stuck with a sick dog that they love....it happens all the time. The bottom line is anytime you get a dog you run the risk of health issues, some things just can't be guaranteed no matter what.


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## firnatine (Apr 8, 2012)

I got my GSD from a breeder in my area. She happened to r her business out of her house. She breeds one litter a year from show line stock - and her dogs have health guarantees. And the dogs are beautiful! I am very happy with my dog. (He's ill right now but not due to breeding) My main reason for not rescuing was that I have kids and other dogs and finding a rescue that is good with both just wasn't happening. 

IMHO - it sounds like your mom wants a puppy, not a dog. Remind her it will get much bigger - and without the proper care will end up at a shelter. I bought 3 dogs from BYB. One of the three turned out good. Of the others, one had HD, and the other was just a terror. You take your risks with any dog, but those risks increase with a BYB.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> All I'm saying that just as there is a chance that dogs will have problems because they came from BYB's they have a chance of this with reputable breeders also...my trainer has a Rott that came from a reputable breeder and 3 in the litter have passed away due to a heart defect(by the time they were 8 months), the breeder claims that no one in the line had it, but it is genetic...so my trainer is out $1500 dollars to have her dog tested so she has peace of mind....it happens all the time. The bottom line is anytime you get a dog you run the risk of health issues, some things just can't be guaranteed no matter what.


My pup's parents are clear of DM. No chance of him getting it. How about yours? His parents are cleared of cardiac defects and Von Wilderbrands. How about yours? Dogs in his pedigree have been OFA'd good or excellent hips and elbows for several generations back. Does that mean he won't/can't develop HD, no, but the cards are stacked in his favor. How about yours?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> My pup's parents are clear of DM. No chance of him getting it. How about yours? His parents are cleared of cardiac defects and Von Wilderbrands. How about yours? Dogs in his pedigree have been OFA'd good or excellent hips and elbows for several generations back. Does that mean he won't/can't develop HD, no, but the cards are stacked in his favor. How about yours?



Actually I can say yes to all of the above for my Golden, because he does have papers, and lines I can follow and his parents were completely health tested with no HD ever in the lines(going back about 10 years)...wow all of that for $300...Looks like I got me a deal and one **** of a dog to boot...As far as the shepherd, I can't answer your exact questions 100% but as of this moment I do know that her parents were health tested and dad has championship bloodlines and is registered and no HD are present in those lines either..all of that for $200, so I'm comfortable in saying that I got me another good dog Does that answer your questions?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> My pup's parents are clear of DM. No chance of him getting it. How about yours? His parents are cleared of cardiac defects and Von Wilderbrands. How about yours? Dogs in his pedigree have been OFA'd good or excellent hips and elbows for several generations back. Does that mean he won't/can't develop HD, no, but the cards are stacked in his favor. How about yours?



Really irritates me someone can assume that I'm an idiot and I don't check into all these things There are people out there that do all the things the right way, but choose to sell there puppies at a reasonable rate..I'm just smart enough to find them I paid $500 for both of mine. How about yours?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

llombardo said:


> That is how I got all of mine And so do lots of other people everywhere


No offense to you or your dogs, but this is horrible advice.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> No offense to you or your dogs, but this is horrible advice.



This form of getting dogs has been going on for many many many years, way before breeders even became popular. Its a common way for everyday people to get dogs and its not going to ever end. Its a way of life, the majority. There will continue to be thousands and thousands of homeless dogs(because that would start a whole new thread if someone in authority told people they had to fix their pets), there will arguments over where one should buy a dog, and in the end the person getting the dog will end up loving the dog no matter where it came from. Nobody can say that there dog is better or healthier, because no one can determine that no matter who they are.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Actually I can say yes to all of the above for my Golden, because he does have papers, and lines I can follow and his parents were completely health tested with no HD ever in the lines(going back about 10 years)...wow all of that for $300...Looks like I got me a deal and one **** of a dog to boot...As far as the shepherd, I can't answer your exact questions 100% but as of this moment I do know that her parents were health tested and dad has championship bloodlines and is registered and no HD are present in those lines either..all of that for $200, so I'm comfortable in saying that I got me another good dog Does that answer your questions?


So your Golden has papers and lines you can follow, and his lines have not had HD going back 10 years? How many generations would that be? 10? 20? And you determined that from his papers? How could you tell? 

And your GSD, just what exactly were her parents health tested for? And the sire is registered and from champion lines with no HD present in those lines either! For how many generations? Is the mother registered? And no HD in those lines either? How do you know this?


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Really irritates me someone can assume that I'm an idiot and I don't check into all these things There are people out there that do all the things the right way, but choose to sell there puppies at a reasonable rate..I'm just smart enough to find them I paid $500 for both of mine. How about yours?


Do all what? You have not backed up anything. Your breeders would be in the poor house if they did all that and sold the pups that cheaply. What is reasonable about breeding untested dogs with no other goal in mind except lining ones pockets.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Nobody can say that there dog is better or healthier, because no one can determine that no matter who they are.


That's what health testing and titles are all about. A titled dog has already been determined better than most by those who know the breed the best.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

llombardo said:


> All I'm saying that just as there is a chance that dogs will have problems because they came from BYB's they have a chance of this with reputable breeders also...my trainer has a Rott that came from a reputable breeder and 3 in the litter have passed away due to a heart defect(by the time they were 8 months), the breeder claims that no one in the line had it, but it is genetic...so my trainer is out $1500 dollars to have her dog tested so she has peace of mind--What are the other choices, per the contract/warranty she can have another puppy if her dog has the heart defect, but does she want to give up her dog after 8mths? Nope, and most people wouldn't so the guarantee means nothing except now someone is stuck with a sick dog that they love....it happens all the time. The bottom line is anytime you get a dog you run the risk of health issues, some things just can't be guaranteed no matter what.


But a reputable breeder can create a higher chance of those dogs being disease free by selective breeding instead of breeding whatever neighbor's dog jumped the fence.

And I bet if that were a BYB they would continue breeding those dogs despite the genetic issues they pass on. 

At least with a reputable breeder you have the _option_ of returning your puppy and getting your money back or exchanging it. BYB's become strangers the moment the money touches their hands. They won't be there for you when you have problems, they won't guarantee their animals or even try to create animals that won't die from genetic diseases, and they aren't doing squat to create quality animals that live up to the standard. What's the point of having a standard if BYB's are destroying the uniform looks and temperaments/traits of purebred dogs? You might as well get a mutt since you will have no idea what that dog is going to act like.

I'd rather pay an extra $1000 for my dog to have a higher chance of being healthy and having a better temperament. I'd rather not be spending that money(and then some) on vet fees and behaviorist appointments. That money is _nothing_ in the grand scheme of dog ownership. Many of us spend that much on dog food in a year. Spaying/neutering can be up to $800(it cost me around $600 to neuter my puppy). The amount of toys, collars, training classes and other things you will spend just within the first year as your dog continues to grow out of and destroy everything you buy it is likely to be more than the initial price, even for an 'expensive' dog.

Heck, the amount of things they will DESTROY within their first year will likely be double their initial price. In my dog's case, the amount of things he destroyed was _eight times_ his initial price. And something tells me he's probably not going to pay me back!

This is something you are going to have for the next 10+ years. I really don't understand cheaping out and getting a dog with a higher chance of a poor temperament(who wants to deal with a fearful/aggressive/neurotic dog for that many years when they can get a dog that isn't like that?) or genetic problems and supporting a breeder who doesn't bother to prove their dogs are up to the standard of the breed. BYB's are lazy. If their dogs were actually worth breeding they can at least get off their asses and prove it, or spend the relatively small fees for OFA testing. Lots of people on here have titles on their dogs for fun. Lots of people got their dog's hips xrayed just so they can prepare for the future. If regular pet people can do it, breeders have no excuse.

Even though those titles aren't the be all end all, they at least provide a bit of information about the parents. Otherwise you are just going by the breeder's word, and I doubt any breeder trying to sell you puppies is going to admit that their dog has 3 different genetic diseases, pees itself whenever the phone rings, and needs to be sedated for every thunderstorm. At least with reputable breeders you have references.

My dog is from a BYB who was breeding for size and color. She said his parents were OFA'd, but that was a lie. He was $500, has awesome nerves, nice drives(the glass door he smashed through to get a cat can attest to that, although not so much for his intelligence), and so far his only health issues are indoor allergies. But that was completely luck, and I'd never willingly take that sort of risk ever again with a living being that will share my life for the next decade or more because I didn't want to spend a little extra.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

I just wanted to jump in about pet stores. We use to have one around here that sold pups. My husband and I went in there once (to get some ferret clothes) and they had a "beagle" except I know from many years of living with a beagle breeder...this was not a full blooded beagle. That dog was listed as $1100. They also had the cutest rott puppy ever. He was only $2400 with papers. They offered to do financing.

There were a couple of people waiting around to see if they were approved with financing. We were shocked!!


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Really irritates me someone can assume that I'm an idiot and I don't check into all these things There are people out there that do all the things the right way, but choose to sell there puppies at a reasonable rate..I'm just smart enough to find them I paid $500 for both of mine. How about yours?


Are you talking about the same Golden you wrote this about on another thread?

*"This is what I did with my golden retriever puppy..do not repeat this to anyone I drove down the street, seen the sign, went in to "look", walked out with a puppy."*

Is that how you check things out? Is this how you found your bargain basement priced Golden?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok my 2 cents, I think every dog/puppy deserves a good home, it's not their fault they are put on this planet, it's 'mans' fault.

With that, Because someone doesn't want to pay alot of money for a puppy doesn't necessarily mean they can't 'afford' to take care of it. Some people just have it in their heads, that paying alot of money for a dog/puppy is just ridiculous. That's their opinion and right to feel that way.

I would ask the OP, you said YOU were getting a puppy? (maybe I mis understood), but why not tell MOM to get a puppy from the same place YOU are getting a puppy from, since I'm assuming you feel your going to someone more reputable than your mom looking thru the classifieds.

You can only educate so much, they are either going to learn from it, or they are going to do whatever it is they choose to do in the first place.

First and foremost, HEALTH to me is the most important thing, if a breeder is not doing any health testing on their breeding pair, that tells me they are either ignorant, don't want to spend the money, or just breeding for the money.

I don't care if their puppies are 150 or 2000 bucks, no health testing, I"m not going to touch them with a ten foot pole. 

llombardo has been LUCKY to have had nice dogs and said no health issues. 

LUCKY doesn't happen to everyone.

I would advise posters to keep this 'civil', and rudeness doesn't belong here.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

Here is my BYB experiences with GSD's growing up. When we decided we wanted a puppy, we looked in the newspaper and had one within a couple of days. Our first GSD, named Start (full name Bethlamhem Stardust. was born on Christmas) Couple out in the country were breeding their dogs for the first time. Because of this we got her for the bargain deal of $100. Temperament she was amazing. I loved that dog. Her ears were floppy (which was no biggie, we loved her anyways) by the age of 2 her body was filled with tumors on her lymp nodes. We had to put her to sleep because the tumors in her neck made it so she couldn't eat. Very hard to deal with I was only maybe 8.

Next GSD, Solid black long hair named Shadow. Paid $300 Great dog, very protective of my little brother, but too leary. Shoe would nip at strangers if we gave her the chance (we didn't). At about 3 years we noticed that when she would stand up there would be a puddle of urine underneath her. We had her at the vet (We have an amazing vet in the area Dr. Jackson, so our dogs never lacked the proper care) and I can't remember what the diagnosis was, but she would have needed to go to Michigan State to have an experimental surgery that didn't have good odds. So we had to put her to sleep. Couldn't afford surgery that likely wasn't going to work. 

Next GSD, bought from a byb who had "German lines" with "champion lines" and even had a contract. Bought Brandi for $500. By the time she was 1 year old she had crippling HD. Parents were never health tested. In order to get a replacement puppy we had to put her to sleep. Poor dog being euthanized at 1 year old due to HD, Terrible :-( Our replacement pup was a male named Cyrus who was also put to sleep by 1 year old for completely different reasons. Despite at least $1,000 in training we couldn't keep him. He lunged at kids and stranger, but really hated kids. A little girl across the street let herself in the backyard. Thank God I was right there, he jumped on top of her, thank God didn't have time to do any damage, but he would have. He was a loaded gun. We had many kids in the neighborhood and couldn't risk the liability. We tried to find a home in the country for him, but in the end realized he shouldn't be in society. Another dog let down 

Our Next/last GSD actually came from a breeder of ASL's who does actually show her dogs. Her name was Maci, paid $500 and like all of the others picked her out of the newspaper. She was a nervebag, and did bite my uncle once (didn't break skin) but was the perfect dog otherwise. We just knew that she had to be managed so that she couldn't bite anyone. 

So that is why when I get my first GSD on my own I will not be going to a BYB, but a reputable breeder where I have a greater chance of a healthy good tempered dog and support if something does go wrong!


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

Sorry, I tried to fix all of my grammar/spelling errors, but 10 minutes has passed...guess you need to deal with them


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## blacksuit (Mar 17, 2012)

I do agree with you that buying from a good breeder would be better, but its not going to ensure that she will get a better dog. If you are going to fret about it, how about kicking in some money so she can go to a good breeder?


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

That was rude.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> So your Golden has papers and lines you can follow, and his lines have not had HD going back 10 years? How many generations would that be? 10? 20? And you determined that from his papers? How could you tell?
> 
> And your GSD, just what exactly were her parents health tested for? And the sire is registered and from champion lines with no HD present in those lines either! For how many generations? Is the mother registered? And no HD in those lines either? How do you know this?


No HD in the golden's history since they started breeding them, they had parents on site, pictures of parents, papers on the parents(medical(I worked at a vet for years and AKC papers). They rotate the dogs, they breed every 1.5-2 years. I have gone back and visited them several times with my dog. They got pictures of my dog by request. Any time I had a question they talked to me and answered them. They were willing to take him back at any time...they didn't deposit my check for a month until I was sure he was right for the house and I couldn manage it. The pups were 8 weeks, the pups all had their first shots and dewormed. The place was spotless, the puppies were clean and healthy. Mom and Dad were happy and beautiful dogs. They donate one puppy out of every litter to do service or therapy work, as she said they love the breed and she could tell me anything I needed to know(very knowledgeable). As far as the shepherd I'm putting bits and pieces together now for my own curiosity and what I have is what I have previously stated...their is a language barrier and this is what taking so long, but I will find out more because that is what I do, in the mean time I have a very solid, well tempered, smart, athletic, loyal pup.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

did they have OFA papers? Or just regular vet visit papers? I've met many "breeders" who say their dogs are HD free. But they don't check for it. "Oh the vet says he is healthy."


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> No HD in the golden's history since they started breeding them, they had parents on site, pictures of parents, papers on the parents(medical(I worked at a vet for years and AKC papers). They rotate the dogs, they breed every 1.5-2 years. I have gone back and visited them several times with my dog. They got pictures of my dog by request. Any time I had a question they talked to me and answered them. They were willing to take him back at any time...they didn't deposit my check for a month until I was sure he was right for the house and I couldn manage it. The pups were 8 weeks, the pups all had their first shots and dewormed. The place was spotless, the puppies were clean and healthy. Mom and Dad were happy and beautiful dogs. They donate one puppy out of every litter to do service or therapy work, as she said they love the breed and she could tell me anything I needed to know(very knowledgeable). As far as the shepherd I'm putting bits and pieces together now for my own curiosity and what I have is what I have previously stated...their is a language barrier and this is what taking so long, but I will find out more because that is what I do, in the mean time I have a very solid, well tempered, smart, athletic, loyal pup.


I still am not seeing where any of these dogs were clear of HD. Pictures and papers have nothing to do with whether a dog has HD or not. You said you worked at a vet's?

Lots of dogs of all different breeds have papers and pictures. Lots of them have HD.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> Are you talking about the same Golden you wrote this about on another thread?
> 
> *"This is what I did with my golden retriever puppy..do not repeat this to anyone I drove down the street, seen the sign, went in to "look", walked out with a puppy."*
> 
> Is that how you check things out? Is this how you found your bargain basement priced Golden?


You have to be one of the rudest people I have ever come across in my life....
Do you see my beginning words, do not repeat this to anyone? That post was meant to make the previous poster laugh.....you know humor, which obviously not ever has Don't you EVER call my Golden a bargain basement priced Golden, he can run circles around other goldens that came from where you think they should come from....he is a solid dog and remained solid even after he was attacked by another dog as a puppy. He flew through obedience, got his CGC, wouldn't hurt a child or another animal...he is everything I ever wanted or expected in a Golden so again don't attack my dog because that is like attacking my kid and I DON'T take it lightly...I've had enough of YOU and I'm not responding to your ignorance...I know what I'm doing and I have beautiful healthy dogs to prove it


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> did they have OFA papers? Or just regular vet visit papers? I've met many "breeders" who say their dogs are HD free. But they don't check for it. "Oh the vet says he is healthy."


This.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> You have to be one of the rudest people I have ever come across in my life....
> Do you see my beginning words, do not repeat this to anyone? That post was meant to make the previous poster laugh.....you know humor, which obviously not ever has Don't you EVER call my Golden a bargain basement priced Golden, he can run circles around other goldens that came from where you think they should come from....he is a solid dog and remained solid even after he was attacked by another dog as a puppy. He flew through obedience, got his CGC, wouldn't hurt a child or another animal...he is everything I ever wanted or expected in a Golden so again don't attack my dog because that is like attacking my kid and I DON'T take it lightly...I've had enough of YOU and I'm not responding to your ignorance...I know what I'm doing and I have beautiful healthy dogs to prove it


Was not a reflection on the dog, but the cheap price you seen to be so proud of. You did say you were smart enough to find your dogs at such reasonable rates, as though those who pay more from a reputable breeder are stupid.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> did they have OFA papers? Or just regular vet visit papers? I've met many "breeders" who say their dogs are HD free. But they don't check for it. "Oh the vet says he is healthy."


Are you referring to the OFA certificate? Everything was there.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> Was not a reflection on the dog, but the cheap price you seen to be so proud of. You did say you were smart enough to find your dogs at such reasonable rates, as though those who pay more from a reputable breeder are stupid.


I never said that those who pay more are stupid..I said its a personal choice and I don't choose to do so. And the whole point I'm trying to make here is that there are good breeders out there that don't charge astronomical prices, but they do things the right way...but it seems that no matter how right they do it, because the dogs aren't $1000 or better then something must be wrong and they are a BYB's. This is all I'm saying.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Anitsisqua said:


> I'm glad yours have turned out well, but I'm kinda nervous about her getting dog from a breeder that doesn't look into the dogs they are breeding or take proper care of the puppies...and then buying from one of them only encourages them, continuing the cycle. It's kinda upsetting me.


There are plenty of good BYB's out there and there are plenty of bad "reputable" breeders (including pet shop puppy mills). Go visit the breeder she is interested in and talk to him/her before making a decision.

"reputable breeders" get to charge more because their dogs are titled. Your mother may just want a purebred companion dog and not a dog for competition.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

* Mango
*
*German Shepherd Dog Mix: An adoptable dog in Little Rock, AR *
Mango is an adorable German Shep pup. Available 4/5. If unaltered, will be spayed or neutered before leaving LRAV. *This is just a sampling of the animals we have available. Please come visit us.* 
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Little Rock, AR | Mango
















* ZOEY
**German Shepherd Dog Mix: An adoptable dog in Jonesboro, AR *
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Jonesboro, AR | ZOEY
















   
* Sawyer*
Petfinder Adoptable Dog | German Shepherd Dog | Melbourne, AR | Sawyer

Etc, etc, etc.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Also:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-update-puppy-mill-girl-i-posted-earlier.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r-reminder-choose-your-breeder-carefully.html

That might help - your mom - as a mom.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So I just went to find all of the golden's paperwork and I did a search(OFA website) on each dog on the Certified Pedigree Certificate and every dog in his direct line back to 1996--it went further back to the 80's has been tested for Hips, Elbow, Cardiac, and Cerf(several times/every year) Hip results all stated excellent and everything else was normal or good and every dog has reached championship status. Although I knew all of this already, it's a nice website and its amazing to be able to look up all of his family members...and there are lots of them I know I have said this before, but I'm not going to argue anymore because I just read the proof of how strong and healthy my dogs lines are, in fact I might even call them up and thank them for producing such wonderful dogs and giving people the opportunity to share in their obvious love of the breed.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

pfitzpa1 said:


> There are plenty of good BYB's out there and there are plenty of bad "reputable" breeders (including pet shop puppy mills).


I think perhaps you don't understand the definition of "BYB" and "reputable breeder".


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## Manny (Feb 6, 2012)

Ok, I've read the first page and the last page only. Can anyone say Troll?


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Almost 17 years ago, my family got a dog from a pet store. She was a Border Collie/Spaniel mix (she looked like a small Border Collie, and had the temperament of one as well). She was an amazing dog, healthy her entire life until we had to put her down at the age of 16.

That being said, with what me and my family learned years after purchasing her, we will NEVER purchase another dog from a pet store or BYB again. I believe we lucked out tremendosly, and the likely hood of getting such a wonderful dog again from similar circumstances is small.

My 2 Dalmatians came from a very reputable breeder. I couldn't be more happy. Sydney I actually paid NOTHING for. I took her when she was 6 years old, she was retired from the breed ring, had had 2 litters and was not going to be bred anymore, so her owner just wanted a home where she could get more attention.

I paid $950 for Shane, his sire is an AKC Champion, multiple Best of Breed and Best In Specialty Show winner. In his 5 generationb pedigree, I think there's only 2 dogs who are not finished Champions.

Getting Shane from a reputable breeder means I had the deck stacked in my favor, knowing his lines I could know what to expect as far as temperament, structure & size, health, etc. If Shane is 8 years old and for some reason I can't keep him, my breeder would take him back. Try that with most BYBs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

llombardo said:


> the whole point I'm trying to make here is that there are good breeders out there that don't charge astronomical prices, but they do things the right way...but it seems that no matter how right they do it, because the dogs aren't $1000 or better then something must be wrong and they are a BYB's. This is all I'm saying.


If they are truly doing things the right way, then they aren't a BYB. Breeders can ask whatever they feel is a fair price for their puppies, but if they aren't showing/titling/doing health checks before breeding, their overhead isn't as high. Most reputable breeders take an overall loss on breeding, because it's very expensive to do things right.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

llombardo said:


> So I just went to find all of the golden's paperwork and I did a search(OFA website) on each dog on the Certified Pedigree Certificate and every dog in his direct line back to 1996--it went further back to the 80's has been tested for Hips, Elbow, Cardiac, and Cerf(several times/every year) Hip results all stated excellent and everything else was normal or good and every dog has reached championship status. Although I knew all of this already, it's a nice website and its amazing to be able to look up all of his family members...and there are lots of them I know I have said this before, but I'm not going to argue anymore because I just read the proof of how strong and healthy my dogs lines are, in fact I might even call them up and thank them for producing such wonderful dogs and giving people the opportunity to share in their obvious love of the breed.


Which dog's reached Champion status? The ones dated back in the 80's or 90's, I'm guessing. People who show dogs to their Championship simply cannot afford to sell a puppy for less than $500. Are you aware how much it costs to earn a Championship on a dog?? You have to enter multiple shows. The average dog takes 1-2 years to earn a Championship, depending on the breed and how much competition you have. Then add the health testing to the cost. Breeders who sell their dogs for $1,000 can still be at a net loss when you consider how much they spent towards the breeding.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ShatteringGlass said:


> Which dog's reached Champion status? The ones dated back in the 80's or 90's, I'm guessing. People who show dogs to their Championship simply cannot afford to sell a puppy for less than $500. Are you aware how much it costs to earn a Championship on a dog?? You have to enter multiple shows. The average dog takes 1-2 years to earn a Championship, depending on the breed and how much competition you have. Then add the health testing to the cost. Breeders who sell their dogs for $1,000 can still be at a net loss when you consider how much they spent towards the breeding.



I'm still investigating the 80's because there are so many, but the Championship Status comes in on all 12 dogs. Almost all of the dogs are also in the CHIC database. I paid $300 for him, do I think that money was not an object for them-Yes. They have a beautiful home, they own a farm, and like I said they donate one puppy from each litter for therapy or service. They are not a known breeder except from where I live--if you see a Golden it probably came from them. As of two months ago when I called to find out if another litter was on the way any time soon, the price was still $300. As she told me that day, they love the breed and enjoy providing these pups for other people that do to.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anitsisqua said:


> My mother wants to get a puppy, which I think would be great for her. However, she does not want to pay the amount necessary to get a pup from a responsible breeder. I definitely understand that, but she doesn't want to get a shelter pup, either.
> 
> She wants a young (8-weeks-ish) purebred puppy.
> 
> ...


Your mom is old enough to make her own decisions.  I don't think you have to pay a fortune to get a responsible breeder. I don't get my dogs from the big kennels either. There are lots and lots of hobby breeders out there that have nice pet quality pups, that are health tested.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

llombardo where did you get your GSD from?


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> You can only educate so much, they are either going to learn from it, or they are going to do whatever it is they choose to do in the first place.


bingo.

some people have blinders on, and can't see past their noses,
hundreds of thousands of dogs are euthanized daily.

thing that sucks is if a dog goes to a shelter, and is deemed unadoptable, it's then labled "rescue only".
rescue's can only do so much with the shoe string budgets they operate on, and no they can't save every dog labled rescue only.

i promote responsible breeders, that are there for their dogs, rain or shine. responsible breeders are needed for the betterment of the breed.

i pray one day, that the rescue i volunteer for goes out of business because there are no more dogs to rescue, because people stopped buying the "garage sale" dogs, and have done their homework on wanting to keep the breed in the best light, with the best dogs possible.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ShatteringGlass said:


> My 2 Dalmatians came from a very reputable breeder. I couldn't be more happy. Sydney I actually paid NOTHING for. I took her when she was 6 years old, she was retired from the breed ring, had had 2 litters and was not going to be bred anymore, so her owner just wanted a home where she could get more attention.
> 
> Try that with most BYBs.


I love dalmatians, I actually had two of them and they were free. Both had very good temperaments, very healthy, and not from the same litter-3 years apart. And if I had to give up my golden, they would take him back in a heartbeat. I have had so many pure bred dogs(they were basically throw away dogs) that I got for nothing, the first dog I ever paid for was my golden. I have never had issues with any of them..all healthy and lived long happy lives.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

sagelfn said:


> llombardo where did you get your GSD from?


I got my shepherd when she was 12 weeks from a guy that originally got her at 8 weeks. I'm working on her history now, I know where she came from, I have seen her brothers from a previous litter. I know a little bit about her parents, but I do want to know more, so the investigation goes on She's a little bit harder because the person that knows the most about her doesn't speak any English But based on her drive and her temperament and my past experiences I don't foresee any issues with her either. If they happen they happen and I will deal with it and make it right.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is fine to not want to pay "tons" for a dog. But don't buy from bybs. Rescue or adopt, if you can't afford or don't believe in paying for dogs.


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## Narny (Sep 8, 2010)

llombardo, everyone here knows your thoughts on the subject, they simply disagree. You saying that byb'ers are every bit as good is like saying there is a man who can take off your infected toe and there is a doctor who can take off your toe. Are either of these likely to kill you? Probably not. Are there equal chance that something with go wrong NO! The odds are far more in favor of the doctor with training to know what to look for. If there were complications the DOCTOR would know how to fix these problems. The guy simply couldnt know most of it because hes not a doctor. He could have an idea but in the end if he didnt study medicine how could you expect that he would know or even care?

By all accounts what you are telling us is that you bought your dog from a good breeder not the typical "byb'er" that we discourage people from. Or at least they are better than most. 

Its not normal to find dogs like this. Yours is in fact the EXCEPTION to the rule, not the rule. 

I understand not wanting to spend so much on a dog. When I first heard how much pure bred dogs sell for (at any level) I was FLOORED! BUT!!!! But, for most of us, the byb represents everything we despise about breeders. They just create more animals that will end up being abused and put down. The dogs from reputable breeders that end up in rescue that are owner surrendered do so because they TRUST the rescue to do right by the dog AND they probably couldnt locate the breeder. I have read this to many times. Oh the breeder died or Oh we couldnt locate them any more. Everyone's life situation changes not just people who buy dogs.

People keep telling you that yours is the EXCEPTION and for some reason you get all up in arms about it. I dont understand why. You found relatively good breeders with out spending that much on a dog and thats fantastic but most wont and the byb business is BOOMING. We want to make sure that WE dont line the pockets of the typical byb'ers. And thats ok. Its also ok to say that we dont recommend byb and this is why (fill in the blank). It is ALSO ok for you to share your experience. But you really should look at your situation as the EXCEPTION not the RULE. People should know that yours is the exception. 

We are all glad that your dogs are healthy and happy. I for one am very glad for you. However, when choosing a dog for my family I dont want to weed through Craigslist and/or hope that they are a good one. I personally feel that I dont know enough about the breed to make a good decision about how to chose the right dog for me. Most people who come here dont or dont know any better. I want as much of a guarantee as I can get.

Back to the OP, the best you can do is try and help your mom. If she insists on a puppy and shes going to go through craigslist or what have you to locate them, go with her when she looks. Ask questions she may not have thought of to be concerned about. She too could get lucky like llombardo if she too asks questions and knows what to look for. 

Good luck to you in either event. Sorry this is so long I have just read this post and MANY others like it for to long to not finally add my two cents to it. Take it for what its worth. 



llombardo said:


> So I just went to find all of the golden's paperwork and I did a search(OFA website) on each dog on the Certified Pedigree Certificate and every dog in his direct line back to 1996--it went further back to the 80's has been tested for Hips, Elbow, Cardiac, and Cerf(several times/every year) Hip results all stated excellent and everything else was normal or good and every dog has reached championship status. Although I knew all of this already, it's a nice website and its amazing to be able to look up all of his family members...and there are lots of them I know I have said this before, but I'm not going to argue anymore because I just read the proof of how strong and healthy my dogs lines are, in fact I might even call them up and thank them for producing such wonderful dogs and giving people the opportunity to share in their obvious love of the breed.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> bingo.
> 
> some people have blinders on, and can't see past their noses,
> hundreds of thousands of dogs are euthanized daily.


That is a tragedy but I don't see how it is my fault and don't see why I would have to pay thousands of dollars for a show line champion titled dog when all I want a family member. Sorry I, like llombardo does, will continue to get my dogs from small hobby breeders.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> That is a tragedy but I don't see how it is my fault and don't see why I would have to pay thousands of dollars for a show line champion titled dog when all I want a family member. Sorry I, like llombardo does, will continue to get my dogs from small hobby breeders.


that is why there are rescues


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

No matter what method you chose when getting a puppy, there is a chance of issues. I do believe, though, that the odds stack more and more against you when you buy from a byb. The byb isn't doing the testing and titling, which costs money as mentioned before. The byb could be churning out pups for maximum profit, or could be nothing more than a person ending up with an oops litter. 

Llombardo, I think you've been very, very lucky! The Golden you've talked about sounds like a wonderful dog, but surely this breeder makes little to no money only charging $300. Maybe they're wealthy and simply breed for the love of the breed, but really, breeding is a business and a breeder has to make a profit.

I helped my son sell some pups from his oops litter, but I was honest with the people I dealt with. The dogs are mixed, not health tested. I stressed that they should be speutered asap because mixed dogs shouldn't be bred. I didn't charge much $$ at all. Do I feel bad about selling those dogs? A little. But I was honest about exactly what they were. They still wanted them. The dogs had to go somewhere. It's not as though I'd have them pts simply because they're mixed. Those people chose to buy a less expensive puppy with unknown history and I pray for them (and myself, since I have two of them) that they all live long, happy, healthy lives... but the truth is, there's no way to know. 

The health testing, IMHO, isn't foolproof, but it sure stacks the deck in better favor. I'm sure that testing doesn't come cheap, so I don't know how a breeder can do all of that and then sell the dog for less $$$.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Narny said:


> Its not normal to find dogs like this. Yours is in fact the EXCEPTION to the rule, not the rule.
> 
> 
> People keep telling you that yours is the EXCEPTION and for some reason you get all up in arms about it.
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

BYB for the most part are not worth it. It is not a personal attack on _you_ if we point that out. You got lucky. Many people aren't. Members on this board are going to encourage rescues/reputable breeders over BYB/pet stores. That is not an attack on you. We have the best interest of the breed and their owners when we make these recommendations. BYB should not be encouraged to continue their practices.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Narny said:


> llombardo, everyone here knows your thoughts on the subject, they simply disagree. You saying that byb'ers are every bit as good is like saying there is a man who can take off your infected toe and there is a doctor who can take off your toe. Are either of these likely to kill you? Probably not. Are there equal chance that something with go wrong NO! The odds are far more in favor of the doctor with training to know what to look for. If there were complications the DOCTOR would know how to fix these problems. The guy simply couldnt know most of it because hes not a doctor. He could have an idea but in the end if he didnt study medicine how could you expect that he would know or even care?
> 
> By all accounts what you are telling us is that you bought your dog from a good breeder not the typical "byb'er" that we discourage people from. Or at least they are better than most.
> 
> ...


Very good post! 
Anyone in rescue/shelter work (which you claim you are, llombardo) knows the myriad pitfalls of BYBs, so I'm surprised you still can recommend people buy from them 
We've rescued SO many byb products, some are great/healthy but the majority have health and/or temperament issues, it's not even funny. Many of them even come in w/reg. papers for all they are worth, even AKC papers.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Bismarck said:


> that is why there are rescues


:thumbup:

And shepherds, you rescued your last (kudos on that!), so what's the big deal there??
If you want a total crapshoot, don't go to bybs, go to the pound or a rescue. At least rescues usually put money into the dog and it's altered at the very least, before going out. One less expense you'll deal with down the line.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I started a thread about where we got our first dogs from not too long ago, and found out how many of us learned the hard way by going to a BYB as uninformed and uneducated first time buyers. You don't always get so lucky when purchasing from a BYB.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

while buying from a BYB is not a real good thing to do, i`ll tell you my story, i`ll try to make it short, my last GSD was from a BYB, he had every illness related to the GSD he could have, when he passed I decided to go to a reputable breeder, did so, put a deposit down, friend calls says so and so has GSD pups for sale, BYB he is, the guy pestered me for weeks, so i finally caved in and went over to look, the one pup out of all the others came right up to me and started licking my face, that was it for me, he came home with me, Max will be 7 years old this may, and after 45 years of having the GSD, I can safely say, you could not genetically engineer a better GSD than Max as far as temperament and intelligence, health wise, he has EPI and has bloated, other than that hes fine,

would I buy from a BYB again, NO, I got real lucky on Max, even my instructor who has over 50 years experience with the GSD said "Max is a once in a life time dog" he said that when Max was 4 months old, I didn't know what he meant at the time, I do now

so if your going to buy from a BYB thats your choice, but like I said I wouldn't do it again, the other 2 I have now are both from BYB, and from rescues, both have a lot of mental issues, and were not adoptable


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## Billie (Feb 13, 2012)

My first (lab) was a byb girl. Well bred pedigree half show/half field, but no health tests done. She was great lived to be 16+ ,but had epilepsy from age 4.... I got basically lucky with her, i was 19 yrs old and couldnt afford a pup from the big kennels. 
But I've learned a lot over the years- wont buy one from the paper again. When i decided months ago that I wanted a GSD, I knew I could find one cheap around here-lots of bybs,etc. A friends neighbor even purposely bred her two, one with AKC and one with nothing.... I Wanted a pup but wanted to do it smartly. So I came here to find out about breeders, pedigrees,temperments of each type,etc... I know better than to buy a byb pup, of any breed, as a trainer I See the results of that "product" every day... So I am buying a good quality pup from a very well known reputable breeder. 
What I dont like about some of the pro rescue people- (some of which reccomended I check out rescue) is that they act holier than thou because they saved a life,or rescued a dog... Because I buy from a reputable breeder , does not make me bad .....just like youre not a better person because you didnt.! There- off my soapbox now!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> that is why there are rescues


There is one Shepherd rescue in the state of Nevada. It is over 6+ hours away and they are not very communicative. California doesn't like to send rescues out of state and are very strict about having to go to their events at petsmart. (no thanks, not going to try to pick out a dog in that kind of enviornment) going further for a dog is not only cost prohibitive but very difficult logistically if you already have dogs you need a new dog to get along with. Many rescues won't let you have dogs if you have young children or if your fence is not up to their standards etc etc. Rules like that are, I'm sure, contributing to people going to byb. 

In any case if you do your research you can find hobby breeders who do OFA and other health testing and who don't charge a fortune. I'm sure the OP's mom is quite old enough to make her own decisions on what she is looking for in a dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> That is a tragedy but I don't see how it is my fault and don't see why I would have to pay thousands of dollars for a show line champion titled dog when all I want a family member. Sorry I, like llombardo does, will continue to get my dogs from small hobby breeders.


small hobby breeders are NOT the same as BYB. Most here would encourage that a "small hobby breeder" is exactly the kind of breeder you should support.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Narny said:


> Its not normal to find dogs like this. Yours is in fact the EXCEPTION to the rule, not the rule.
> 
> .


I understand this completely and its truly a good post, but I have gotten all my dogs this way my whole life without any issues..I can't be that lucky..that is a lot of dogs I also get more defensive when someone questions my dogs line, my judgement or calls them a bargain basement dog. I would never purchase a dog from a pet store or from someone I thought was pretty much running a puppy mill. All my dogs have been rescues except the two I have mentioned on here, most of those rescues being strays or people bringing their dogs to me. Maybe I have a horseshoe up my butt, but I really don't think I'm that lucky. If I feel a connection with the dog I will do anything for it and if that means getting it out of a horrible situation then that is what I will do. I'm not looking for championship lines, titles or any of that..I want a pet and I'm happy with that


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

Billie said:


> What I dont like about some of the pro rescue people- (some of which reccomended I check out rescue) is that they act holier than thou because they saved a life,or rescued a dog... Because I buy from a reputable breeder , does not make me bad .....just like youre not a better person because you didnt.! There- off my soapbox now!


well, i can say that if you choose not to go for a rescue dog, and instead choose to go with a known, reputable breeder... good for you.
you end up paying more than you would with a byb, but then it's harder for you to just take a loss, should something occur. you have more incentive to actually keep the dog.
good breeding is NEEDED, for any type of dog, be it a chi, mal, gsd, heck, even pits need good, responsible breeders that care about the dogs they produce.
all i can say is thank you for not supporting byb.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Rules like that are, I'm sure, contributing to people going to byb.


This is what I don't get - why would you let "rules like that" "force" you to go to a BYB!?

Rescues do not _force_ people to do anything! You make the choice to buy a BYB product or a puppy mill/pet store dog!

Many actual kill shelters _do not_ have requirements or what-have-you. Go to one of them rather than sitting around whining because a rescue wanted to see a fenced yard. 

Seriously, how does one make the jump from "a rescue wants to see a fenced yard so I'll buy a petstore puppy"?? 

Then again, there's many folks who won't complete an application or agree to a home visit because it's a "reject" dog so we "ought to be glad" they even emailed us!

And yet - it's because of people these dogs are in the position (in rescue) they are in so why should we give the dog to people who say they are the best pet owners on earth so why would we make them do an application??


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> And shepherds, you rescued your last (kudos on that!), so what's the big deal there??
> If you want a total crapshoot, don't go to bybs, go to the pound or a rescue. At least rescues usually put money into the dog and it's altered at the very least, before going out. One less expense you'll deal with down the line.


I did rescue my last and have rescued several over the years. BTW he is a perfect sweetie. :wub: I'm just saying I wouldn't hesitate to get another dog from a hobby breeder either. You don't have to spend a fortune to get a good dog and frankly I don't like some of the things the "supposedly" respectable breeders do. Like the 12 year old tatooed girl who recently wound up in rescue here. I just think that the mom is old enough to choose her own dog without her kid going all judgemental on her. The title of the thread set me off.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Judgmental = trying to save the mom a lifetime of heartache w/a puppy who is quite possibly sick and (as others mentioned) have every illness known to the breed.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

so you know where the 12yo is from? and they're a "respectable breeder"??


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> ?
> 
> 
> Many actual kill shelters _do not_ have requirements or what-have-you. Go to one of them rather than sitting around whining because a rescue wanted to see a fenced yard.
> ...


Actually every shelter I have ever gone to or visited do not let you get a bigger dog if you have kids under 5, other then that the rules are pretty logical-if you rent you have to have the landlords permission to get the dog, the dog is either fixed or must be in a certain time frame, etc....Not even I would make the jump from rescue to a petstore puppy And I never said I supported BYB's, I just happened to get two dogs that possibly fall under this category and after this thread I'm even doubting that now But the way they were advertised and the prices I paid would be considered BYB, so one can't say that just because they put up an ad that they aren't responsible about what they do--just like anything else it requires common sense and some research. I also want to stress that I am a firm believer in spay/neuter and that is probably the only way to stop BYB's, other then making laws which protect dogs/cats(this won't ever happen) and enforcing them, the cycle will continue. I have always rescued my dogs/cats...every cat was a stray I strongly believe in rescuing before anything else and I support that and any rescue groups. In fact in the very near future I will start to do fostering, because I personally feel that the homeless dog situation is way out of hand and I want to help


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

shepmom, 
have you contacted the breeder, and informed them that one of their dogs is in the kennel?


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

llombardo said:


> In fact in the very near future I will start to do fostering, because I personally feel that the homeless dog situation is way out of hand and I want to help


that is awesome!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Maybe someone should post some kind of chart or explanation that explains the difference of/between large kennels vs hobby breeders vs BYBers vs puppy mills if they have one handy. I know I've seen them before on here before. 

It seems there's quite a few people here who don't quite grasp the definition of each.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> This is what I don't get - why would you let "rules like that" "force" you to go to a BYB!?
> 
> *I think we are not communicating.  You know I just went a different rescue route, but I'm experienced I know what I'm looking for in a dog, a resuce, or a breeder. I also have a fence and my kids are grown. *
> 
> ...


and there will always be people like this. Which is why there will always be BYB and rescues. To borrow a Ron White phrase. "You can't fix stupid" I'm not advocating a BYB or saying don't go to a rescue. What I am saying is that there are affordable hobby breeders out there for those that don't want to spend a fortune on a championship line dog. Rather than judge why shouldn't we encourage people like the OP to find them?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lucy Dog said:


> Maybe someone should post some kind of chart or explanation that explains the difference of/between large kennels vs hobby breeders vs BYBers vs puppy mills if they have one handy. I know I've seen them before on here before.
> 
> It seems there's quite a few people here who don't quite grasp the definition of each.


This is a good idea, because although I know what a BYB is and my dogs _somewhat_ fall under that category based on what people say on here I don't believe that they are based on the fact that I paid so much less for them..That seems to be part of the problem, people hear what you paid and right away there is no way that dog was health tested or guaranteed. I don't think having a contract constitutes much if both parties don't fulfill it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> and there will always be people like this. Which is why there will always be BYB and rescues. To borrow a Ron White phrase. "You can't fix stupid" I'm not advocating a BYB or saying don't go to a rescue. What I am saying is that there are affordable hobby breeders out there for those that don't want to spend a fortune on a championship line dog. Rather than judge why shouldn't we encourage people like the OP to find them?


I think I managed to find them


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lucy Dog said:


> Maybe someone should post some kind of chart or explanation that explains the difference of/between large kennels vs hobby breeders vs BYBers vs puppy mills if they have one handy. I know I've seen them before on here before.
> 
> It seems there's quite a few people here who don't quite grasp the definition of each.


Ditto!!!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Falkosmom said:


> If they can't afford the price of a quality puppy, they most likely can't afford the price of quality food or vet care.
> 
> Also, if the pup is cheap, it will more easily be viewed as a disposable commodity. First sign of trouble, dump it!


Following that logic: It's OK to get a rescue and feed it poorly and give it lousy/little vet care.... and will probably be dumped.
Buying a puppy from a BYB is pretty much the same as rescuing it. The end result is that you have a lower priced puppy. Then you start from there. How much do you know about the background of a rescue? Around here it is about the same cost to get a puppy from a rescue organization as from a BYB. After much looking at rescues, I got a puppy from a reputable BYB that had a very good pedigree... for not much more than the cost of a rescue. Yes, I know, 'a very good pedigree' is a subjective term.
If the OP's mother asks the right questions, she has a fair chance of getting a good puppy.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> shepmom,
> have you contacted the breeder, and informed them that one of their dogs is in the kennel?


Yes, I tracked down the tattoo, the rescue contacted the breeder (an AKC registered breeder) and the whole situation is in another thread here so I really don't want to go into it again. The dog is safe and has found a forever home and that is what matters. Just saying even with "suposed" respectable breeders there can be issues.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

llombardo.

You know this thread is not about your and not about your dog is it? The OP wants advice on steering her mother away from a BYB so why not respect her wishes?

I am so glad you have had so much luck but, by your tagline, it does not look like you have owned enough dogs to make those long term projections on the health and well being of your own. My single BYB died at the age of 9 months from a kidney disease.

--Only one RIP? Do you actually HAVE more, much more history with raising BYB dogs? 
--How old are you other dogs? Have you x-rayed them to verify no orthopedic issues? Sometimes you can't tell. Though HD is not the end of the world and can be asymptomatic-especially if a dog is not pushed to the extremes of work. . 
--How do you know they are "all that"? 

I will continue to support breeders who do all the right things to minimize my risk. My next GSD will be my seventh one about 4-5 years from now.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> Yes, I tracked down the tattoo, the rescue contacted the breeder (an AKC registered breeder) and the whole situation is in another thread here so I really don't want to go into it again. The dog is safe and has found a forever home and that is what matters. Just saying even with "suposed" respectable breeders there can be issues.


that's horrible if they did that. it truly does sadden me to hear that.


but i'm glad she has a home now.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> llombardo.
> 
> You know this thread is not about your and not about your dog is it? The OP wants advice on steering her mother away from a BYB so why not respect her wishes?
> 
> ...



Really just when I calm down, someone comes on here and questions me...*I never said the thread was about me, I posted how I got my dogs and the attack began and yes I do get defensive if someone I don't know from Jack assumes things about me or my dogs, with the whole point being that dogs can be purchased for much less if research is done*..Not that I have to explain myself but...Only one RIP because that is the last dog I had before my present three that died...I couldn't possibly fit all of the other dogs....And the one RIP was a 8-9 year old dog that had a half of a head due to cancer, his owner died and they were going to put him to sleep, so I took him sight unseen and enjoyed the last two years of his life camping, going for walks, etc..Yes that is what I do, I will take in any dog that needs me and I love them and provide for them. I have three dogs presently, the oldest one is a rescue(she was brought back 3 times for behavior issues, but oddly enough I haven't had a single problem with her) that I'm sure came from a BYB. She is almost 8 and has been to the vet once about 6 months ago for health issues that were minor. Any and all dogs(there have been MANY) that have come my way either stayed with me or were placed in good homes where they were fixed if not already and I always stayed in contact with them...The last one was a golden retriever, I had two people that wanted him..one said he would be neutered the other said he didn't believe in it...needless to say the dog is now neutered, happy,healthy and I see him every week. So please don't question me or what I do, I try to make a difference and I no longer have faith in people so I put my faith in the dogs I go out on a limb for and I help the animals that didn't ask to be thrown out in the street and all of my animals have been ALL THAT.

***I would also like to note that I have not once questioned or said anything about people going to breeders..it is there choice and they can do whatever they want..I have nothing bad to say about these people or the breeders..***


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> Following that logic: It's OK to get a rescue and feed it poorly and give it lousy/little vet care.... and will probably be dumped.
> Buying a puppy from a BYB is pretty much the same as rescuing it. The end result is that you have a lower priced puppy. Then you start from there. How much do you know about the background of a rescue? Around here it is about the same cost to get a puppy from a rescue organization as from a BYB. After much looking at rescues, I got a puppy from a reputable BYB that had a very good pedigree... for not much more than the cost of a rescue. Yes, I know, 'a very good pedigree' is a subjective term.
> If the OP's mother asks the right questions, she has a fair chance of getting a good puppy.


:thumbup: did I mention....:thumbup: Thank YOU!!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> llombardo.
> 
> You know this thread is not about your and not about your dog is it? The OP wants advice on steering her mother away from a BYB so why not respect her wishes?
> 
> ...


 How do you know "all that" if you get a dog from a shelter or rescue.
I looked at getting a dog from a large GSD rescue in the Los Angeles area.
They have a lot of dogs. Since foster people are hard to come by, only a small per cent were fostered. So basically you know less about the dogs than you would from what some have decided are not proper breeders.
Even dogs who are fostered, you only can know wht the person who fostered them can tell you. You still won't know the pedigrees or potential health problems or much of anything else
Once again I'm not against the advice about reputable breeders. I just think it is not realistic to believe that the giant pet market is going to care about how to find a reputable breeder. They want a pet and 200 bucks beats 1000 bucks.

I agree with what PaddyD said. That's the way things are.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Following that logic: It's OK to get a rescue and feed it poorly and give it lousy/little vet care.... and will probably be dumped.
> Buying a puppy from a BYB is pretty much the same as rescuing it. The end result is that you have a lower priced puppy. Then you start from there. How much do you know about the background of a rescue? Around here it is about the same cost to get a puppy from a rescue organization as from a BYB. After much looking at rescues, I got a puppy from a reputable BYB that had a very good pedigree.


Rescues have vetted the dogs, spay/neuter, chips, vaccines, the whole she-bang. If a rescue wants $400 for a dog in their care (and they've observed it, interacted with it, _know_ it) for a fully vetted dog, and a BYB wants $400 for a puppy (often unvaccinated, unwormed, no chip, no s/n) which is the better deal!?

A young pup or young adult, or even an adult dog who is fully vetted or a BYB product that has no vetting at all? 

At that point it's not only a financial issue but an ethical one above all.

You're going to pour another $400 minimum to get the BYB puppy to where the rescued one is right now, vetting-wise. And you've supported the rescue's efforts, not given Joe Blow a reason to keep breeding his un-health-tested dogs, because now he can afford that big screen TV or brand new computer or cell he's been wanting. 

And if you adopt a rescued dog, the $400 will go to save the next dog.

Hardly able to "follow" the BYB "logic" when you actually think about it!

**And - rescues screen carefully (as a rule) so you're _not_ going to get a dog from them if you never vetted the other dogs and don't plan to vet this one!


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I think perhaps you don't understand the definition of "BYB" and "reputable breeder".


Whether I understand it or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is does the OP understand the difference and if so what does she "know" about this breeder that makes her want to steer her mother away so much.
If she has knowledge of this breeder and the breeder is not good/produces bad dogs then fair enough we she should try and steer her mother away. If she has no information other than this breeder has had a litter in his back yard then she should go with her mom and visit and ask questions.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

and not to mention, that if the rescue is a non profit, you got your dog for FREE!

yes, your dog you just rescued, along with the crate you purchased, the collars etc.. are all FREE


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm pro rescue but vetting a dog is no where near what the requirements are in the infamous thread on finding a "reputable breeder".

In most cases there is no health testing, no hip or elbow xrays and little if any information on the genetics. So you still don't really know what you are getting.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Bismarck said:


> and not to mention, that if the rescue is a non profit, you got your dog for FREE!
> 
> yes, your dog you just rescued, along with the crate you purchased, the collars etc.. are all FREE


:thumbup:



> I'm pro rescue but vetting a dog is no where near what the requirements are in the infamous thread on finding a "reputable breeder".
> 
> In most cases there is no health testing, no hip or elbow xrays and little if any information on the genetics. So you still don't really know what you are getting.


We've done x-rays on dogs that need it. We've done surgeries, we've paid to have a leg pinned so it would heal correctly, we took on that financial burden when we took the puppy with a shattered femur into rescue. 
Yes folks, he was a BYB product. Sold to an owner that let him walk around on that shattered leg_ for a month_ before deciding to shoot the dog - whereupon someone intervened and brought the dog ot us. 

I'd have to say that the bad things that happen w/byb dogs far outweigh the "good" exceptions...I just wish you could spend a day or a even a week with us while we clean up after all the BYBs in our area 

Most rescues do vet dogs - we do - and if there's obvious issues, yes they do get diagnosed and addressed before said dog/pup go anywhere.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> Maybe someone should post some kind of chart or explanation that explains the difference of/between large kennels vs hobby breeders vs BYBers vs puppy mills if they have one handy. I know I've seen them before on here before.
> 
> It seems there's quite a few people here who don't quite grasp the definition of each.


It seems that all of the 'definitions' are subjective. When is a large kennel not a puppy mill? Obvious to some but where is the line drawn? When is a hobby breeder not a BYB, or vice versa? Is there a book somewhere containing 'doggynitions'?


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Rescues have vetted the dogs, spay/neuter, chips, vaccines, the whole she-bang. If a rescue wants $400 for a dog in their care (and they've observed it, interacted with it, _know_ it) for a fully vetted dog, and a BYB wants $400 for a puppy (often unvaccinated, unwormed, no chip, no s/n) which is the better deal!?
> 
> A young pup or young adult, or even an adult dog who is fully vetted or a BYB product that has no vetting at all?
> 
> ...


Your rescue knowledge vastly exceeds mine. I was arguing the point someone made that people who can't afford an expensive puppy will get a 'cheap' one and are likely not able to afford (and therefore will not provide) good food or care. Kinda like saying that since you can't afford a Mercedes, then you won't use proper gas or properly maintain your car. I don't like sweeping generalizations. But that's because I'm Irish and the Irish never make sweeping generalizations. :crazy:


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

I don't believe that all BYB's are in for the money. My first two GSD's came from households who had lovely b!tches, and just wanted them to have a litter before they were spayed. Both were wonderful dogs, with no health or behaviour problems. 

Please correct me if that is not what you mean by BYB's - and give the defination you feel is correct.

Sue


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

jakes mom said:


> I don't believe that all BYB's are in for the money. My first two GSD's came from households who had lovely b!tches, and just wanted them to have a litter before they were spayed. Both were wonderful dogs, with no health or behaviour problems.
> 
> Please correct me if that is not what you mean by BYB's - and give the defination you feel is correct.
> 
> Sue


how did that breeding "better" the breed?
were the bitches health tested? certs? 
same for the male?

just "wanting" to breed your dog because she's sweet and nice, isn't part of the breeding standard. chances are a few of the litters ended up in a kill shelter, and the breeder wouldn't support those animals.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

jakes mom said:


> I don't believe that all BYB's are in for the money. My first two GSD's came from households who had lovely b!tches, and just wanted them to have a litter before they were spayed. Both were wonderful dogs, with no health or behaviour problems.
> 
> Please correct me if that is not what you mean by BYB's - and give the defination you feel is correct.
> 
> Sue


My brother back in Ireland has 2 champion springer spaniels bitches that he hunts and works regularly. On occasion he will get a request from one of the shooting club members (who might also have a really good springer male) to breed the two and he often does (well once ever few years or so). He knows little/nothing about breeding, there are no health checks, just two avid springer hunters that have two excellent dogs. He may keep one pup, the sire owner will take one and the rest are sold for around $300 to other club members/hunters that they know. His bitch Jasmine has produced some wonderful hunters.

This most likely qualifies as BYB in this forums definition.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I strongly believe in rescuing before anything else and I support that and any rescue groups. In fact in the very near future I will start to do fostering, because I personally feel that the homeless dog situation is way out of hand and I want to help


That is good to hear. If you're going to support BYBs, at least you can balance it out by helping the homeless dogs that BYBs create.

I got my first dog from a BYB when I was 19 years old. She cost me $40. She was supposed to be a purebred GSD, no health testing that I know of (mother may have been x-rayed but I'm not sure). Turns out she was not purebred and she did have skin problems and allergies, but other than that she was very healthy, lived to be 16 years old and was one of the best dogs I'll ever have. 

Would I do it again? No way. I've rescued, fostered and adopted, and also bought from reputable breeders. I won't support another backyard breeder because I don't believe dog breeding is something to be taken lightly or done casually. Perhaps if there were a shortage of dogs, there'd be a justification for backyard breeding. But until the shelters, rescues and streets are free of homeless pets, IMO you'd better have a dang good reason for breeding your dog. "We want one just like him", "she's a purebred", "she's a really nice dog", or "we wanted our children to see the miracle of life" do not count as good reasons.

But I'm really tired of this debate. It makes me sad. If you have had good luck with backyard-bred dogs, I am happy for you and for the dogs as well. But supporting unethical breeders is nothing to brag about.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Bismarck said:


> how did that breeding "better" the breed?
> were the bitches health tested? certs?
> same for the male?
> 
> just "wanting" to breed your dog because she's sweet and nice, isn't part of the breeding standard. chances are a few of the litters ended up in a kill shelter, and the breeder wouldn't support those animals.


I don't necessarily agree with breeding a dog just once before they are spayed...that you hear all the time, but I'm not saying that the dogs turn out bad either, its just more dogs in the world. The breeding standard is not what the everyday average person looking for a house pet looks for. And again it falls into the people who own the dogs and decide to get rid of them, most of them don't contact the breeder to begin with so the end result is the same. Its the same for rescue groups, they want the dog back if it don't work out but the owners don't bother contacting them and off to another pound the dog goes to. So as knowledgeable as some breeders/rescues are they can't control how unknowledgeable the puppy's new owner is. Most people don't want to admit failing--human nature, so therefore they don't do what is necessarily right by the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If there's no health testing done, who is to say those dogs aren't going to have health issues? Maybe in Ireland there's fewer health issues overall, I doubt there's the selfish backyard breeding going on there that there is here.

But - some folks' ideas are, they bought "nice" dogs from BYBs. OK, so where did the other 8-12 puppies go?? All to good homes? Did some wind up in shelters within their 1st year of life? 
Breeding done with no health testing (eyes, heart, DM, hips) is risky business. For every one person here that claims to have had good luck with a BYB pup, there's 10 more who have health and temperament issues. 

For those who got good pups, we keep saying over and over (but nobody is listening) you are the exception, not the rule. 

Breeding done for the sake of breeding is bad breeding. Period. Maybe a few pups got lucky, but that's all you can say.



> Perhaps if there were a shortage of dogs, there'd be a justification for backyard breeding. But until the shelters, rescues and streets are free of homeless pets, IMO you'd better have a dang good reason for breeding your dog. "We want one just like him", "she's a purebred", "she's a really nice dog", or "we wanted our children to see the miracle of life" do not count as good reasons.


:thumbup:



> If you have had good luck with backyard-bred dogs, I am happy for you and for the dogs as well. But supporting unethical breeders is nothing to brag about.


Word. 
Also - those of us who did purchase from BYBs (I've always rescued) didn't know better. Then we learned and did better.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

is it your mother doesn't "want" to pay the reputable
breeder price or she "can't afford" to pay the reputable
breeder price. if it's a matter she doesn't want to pay
the reputable breeder price i think you can persuade
her to do the right thing. there's a chance you could
find a nice dog in the news paper.



Anitsisqua said:


> My mother wants to get a puppy, which I think would be great for her. However,
> 
> >>>> she does not want to pay the amount necessary to get a pup from a responsible breeder. <<<<
> 
> ...


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

llombardo said:


> I don't necessarily agree with breeding a dog just once before they are spayed...that you hear all the time, but I'm not saying that the dogs turn out bad either, its just more dogs in the world. *The breeding standard is not what the everyday average person looking for a house pet looks for.* And again it falls into the people who own the dogs and decide to get rid of them, most of them don't contact the breeder to begin with so the end result is the same. Its the same for rescue groups, they want the dog back if it don't work out but the owners don't bother contacting them and off to another pound the dog goes to. So as knowledgeable as some breeders/rescues are they can't control how unknowledgeable the puppy's new owner is. Most people don't want to admit failing--human nature, so therefore they don't do what is necessarily right by the dog.


That is the exact reason the breed is in the shape it is today. We should not dumb down/water down the breed to fit the needs of people who want a dog that looks like a GSD but don't really want a GSD. A reputable breeder doesn't sell to these people because they are clueless. This is why they turn to the newspaper or an easier buy. They want what they want and don't care beyond that.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Freestep said:


> But I'm really tired of this debate. It makes me sad. If you have had good luck with backyard-bred dogs, I am happy for you and for the dogs as well. But supporting unethical breeders is nothing to brag about.


I think I decided a few posts back that my dog isn't from a BYB, but more likely a hobby breeder that IMO could be selling their dogs for $1000 or better based on the history I found. Again all dogs I have had came from situations that would be considered BYB, I got the aftermath and I'm not turning a dog away that needs help...Whether we support them or not, it keeps happening and I personally can only rescue so many, so if given a choice I will take the rescue dog on death row over buying a dog from any breeder(all breeders are aware of the homeless dog population and they still continue to breed knowing this/adding to the population if they believe it or not) as I have done in the past and will continue to do in the future. I just couldn't pass up either of my last two dogs, but I'm far from done having dogs or rescuing them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I just want to add something in case a 'new person' may be reading this thread.

Just because your "akc" papers say every dog on it had passing hips and elbows, does not in anyway mean they have not produced one or more that have flunking hips/elbows. 

Unless you can research EVERY SINGLE puppy produced off your pedigree, (and that would involve hundreds if not thousands of dogs if your ped is going back to the 80's)
there is no way on this earth, there was not 'one' puppy produced that had health issues. 

Every single breeder whether they are responsible/byb or commercial, has at some point had some type of health issue..if they say they haven't, well they are full of it.

Many people buy puppies and never have them xrayed, why bother? the dog may show no symptoms, doesn't mean it isn't there. 

Goldens are notorious for ending up with cancers, they have a very high percentage, all it takes is for one to go to the golden forum and read it..Very sad

With that, I apologize to the OP for going off topic, but wanted people who may not realize that just because a pedigree is good on paper doesn't mean every puppy produced is/has been healthy.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

OK, can we get back to ORIGINAL TOPIC or start a new one, because I'm ready to start removing posts that have nothing to do with the ORIGINAL question.

Thank you


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> If there's no health testing done, who is to say those dogs aren't going to have health issues? Maybe in Ireland there's fewer health issues overall, I doubt there's the selfish backyard breeding going on there that there is here.
> 
> But - some folks' ideas are, they bought "nice" dogs from BYBs. OK, so where did the other 8-12 puppies go?? All to good homes? Did some wind up in shelters within their 1st year of life?
> Breeding done with no health testing (eyes, heart, DM, hips) is risky business. For every one person here that claims to have had good luck with a BYB pup, there's 10 more who have health and temperament issues.
> ...


What are the odds of having as many dogs as I have had--I have to make a list that not one of them have had health or temperament issues..keep in mind most of them(except for two) came from BYB's I'm sure of it. People get rid of there dogs because it jumps to much, it knocks the kids down, it chewed my couch, etc....its a dog and if not trained this is what it does...some people would call these behavior issues, which is probably one of the biggest reasons dogs are given up. In shelters in my area almost every dog is pit bull or mixed and most people would deem them temperamental once they heard what they are. Statistically speaking more people have dogs that weren't born in desireable conditions and have had lots of success with them. I can't think of one person I know(I know lots of people) that has paid a drastic amount for any dog and all the dogs are fine and live long healthy lives.


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

jakes mom said:


> I don't believe that all BYB's are in for the money. My first two GSD's came from households who had lovely b!tches, and just wanted them to have a litter before they were spayed. Both were wonderful dogs, with no health or behaviour problems.
> 
> Please correct me if that is not what you mean by BYB's - and give the defination you feel is correct.
> 
> Sue





Bismarck said:


> how did that breeding "better" the breed?
> were the bitches health tested? certs?
> same for the male?
> 
> just "wanting" to breed your dog because she's sweet and nice, isn't part of the breeding standard. chances are a few of the litters ended up in a kill shelter, and the breeder wouldn't support those animals.


I simply stated a fact, and asked a question. I reply to the question would have been nice. 

I know for a fact everyone went to good homes - they were all lined up before breeding. 

It was nothing to do with "wanting" to breed their dogs - it was evertyhing to do with wanting to do the natural thing and let the b!tches have a litter, as nature intended - before they were spayed. 

Also FYI my last two dogs have been from rescues - both with excellent pedigrees and from reputable breeders. I, in no way blame the breeders - but I do blame the owners who gave up on them too easily. The money paid for them, didn't ensure they had good homes. 

Sue


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Things that have happened to us in rescue when dealing with irresponsible breeders (or bybs, whatever the term may be).

A litter of Dachshund puppies - parents are siblings - 1 puppy died at 3 weeks due to ???

A litter of GSD puppies - maggots infested their umbilical cords because mama died and the puppies were there for almost 2 days with no care to speak of. We managed to save them all despite this - but at least 1 puppy died before the owners ("breeders") got off their duffs and got the puppies to rescue.

A litter of Dachshund puppies - all healthy but wormy, etc. no vaccines. Miraculously they were all healthy at least until they got adopted, haven't heard of anything since.

Numerous puppy mill dogs have come our way, traced their beginnings via faux or even AKC registration papers.

A 5yr. old Dachshund with such poor nerves and lack of socialization she was a bite hazard and after having her 3 weeks with no improvement and over-the-top fear issues (which is why she bit) we euthanized her. I traced her lineage to a breeder I was considering using - it ended up that this breeder was some 4 generations back and a couple of "nobodies" (nobody knew of them, seriously, I could never locate them) got ahold of and bred these untested/untitled dogs - at the very least, a title implies the dog's temperament was such that a judge could inspect it without getting bitten! 

More GSDs than I could shake a stick at, with fear/aggression/temperament issues that were genetic as well as lack of socialization, luckily found them great homes with full disclosure on their history/temperaments. That includes the GSD pup w/the shattered femur, his "breeder" knew all about this going on and was the one who contacted the person who contacted us - this "breeder" did not take said puppy back! 

Allergic dogs - dysplastic dogs - other health issues too numerous to mention but allergies are up there at the top of the list. 

That's just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. For every person who chimes in with "we got lucky", there's at least 3-8 and maybe even 10 more puppies that didn't get lucky, that wound up here, or another rescue, or a pound somewhere including kill shelters.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Unless you can research EVERY SINGLE puppy produced off your pedigree, (and that would involve hundreds if not thousands of dogs if your ped is going back to the 80's)
> there is no way on this earth, there was not 'one' puppy produced that had health issues.
> 
> 
> Goldens are notorious for ending up with cancers, they have a very high percentage, all it takes is for one to go to the golden forum and read it..Very sad


Just a small note...I have spent the last couple hours on the OFA site(not AKC site), reading and reading and reading and I'm not finding anything negative..I'll let you know if I do...and Shepherds are notorious for HD and Bloat-the point is some things can't be controlled and every breed is more prone to health issues then others...I've done my research on goldens, I belong to the forum. I'm more informed then one might think


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Goldens are also notorious these days for having piss-poor temperaments and (as Jakoda mentioned) other health issues than just HD. 

Just about every breed is becoming known for having awful temperaments within those breeds because of overbreeding due to popularity, no breed is immune any longer.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

llombardo said:


> Just a small note...I have spent the last couple hours on the OFA site(not AKC site), reading and reading and reading and I'm not finding anything negative..I'll let you know if I do...


Most people don't publish negative results.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Original poster - Why don't you invite her to attend some conformation shows with you or working/sports venues to meet people and discuss upcoming litter plans, and medical histories/testing? 

I know this is OT, but there was a study done that showed a correlation between the cost of a dog/puppy and how long the dog/puppy stayed in it's home. 
Source: http://petpopulation.org/characteristicsofshelter.pdf
Exact quote: "Dogs were at increased risk of relinquishment if they were obtained at no cost or if their purchase cost was less than $100."

I work for a shelter and it is no surprise that when 'specials' are run for free or reduced cost adoptions, there is an increased return rate as well.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Tiffseagles said:


> Original poster - Why don't you invite her to attend some conformation shows with you or working/sports venues to meet people and discuss upcoming litter plans, and medical histories/testing?
> 
> I know this is OT, but there was a study done that showed a correlation between the cost of a dog/puppy and how long the dog/puppy stayed in it's home.
> Source: http://petpopulation.org/characteristicsofshelter.pdf
> ...


*Exactly!* 
Part of our pricing determination in rescue is to deter those who want a quick, cheap pet, often for a present for a child or girl-/boy-friend. Sometimes, the cuter the puppy, the tougher we must make it to get said puppy, unfortunately!

We've found that if people have to invest a bit of cash, they may be more inclined to keep the pet/work on issues that might arise. No solid guarantee but certainly more guarantee than if we gave them away to the first person to wave money at us.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

There are puppy mills these avoid like the plague. Then you have you back yard breeders who breed for money and don't care about the dogs. But there are the "hobby breeders" these are people that are not real breeders but love there pets and want to breed just for one or 2 litters. This kind of breeder I would not call a back yard breeder. These are people that just want to breed thier dog for fun. Sometimes these hobby breeders do it right and pay to get there dog a good stud. 

Research the breeder visit the home talk to the breeder. Feel it out first I saw. 

Honestly I would really try and talk her into a shelter dog.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

It's not just the money, the shelters are often to blame for pushing people to "unreputable" breeders. I'll give my example. We wanted a kitten/cat for the house. There are 2 shelters close by, the rich one and the pound. The rich one has beautiful individual rooms for the animals all with nice furniture and some with Tv's. The pound, well, is the pound. We went with my wife, daughter and son. My daughter found a nice tuxedo kitten that she really liked so we went to fill in the adoption forms (at the rich shelter). One of the questions was do you have other animals in the home and we responded, yes. We had 2 older (14 yr) dogs. So the application stopped immediately there. We could not proceed until we brought both our dogs into the shelter for "evaluation" where they would put the dogs in a room with a cat that was apparently "able to handle dogs" and they would see how my dogs would respond. At that point I laughed and we walked out. I'm sure this would have driven most folk to go to a NQA breeder and just pick up a kitten. We went across the road to the pound, found another kitten, told them we had dogs in the house but they wouldn't be a problem, filled in the forms and picked up the kitty the next day. The kitten and the dogs got on fine as I knew they would. My dogs have since died, our kitten is now a wonderful cat that hunts outside during the day/evening, always hanging close to the house and comes inside for the night. I have since got a GSD puppy (now 18mo) and while they chase each other a bit it is playful and the coexist happily.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

My post was meant to address previous posts (should have quoted) that were of the opinion that cost did not influence the type of person interested in the animal - according to this study there is some sort of issue either on the dog side (possibly cheaper dogs have more health/behavior issues) or on the human side (cheap dogs aren't much of an investment so are more easily surrendered) or a combination of both. I'm inclined to believe that as with most situations that I see, the fault is on the human side.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It's not just the money, the shelters are often to blame for pushing people to "unreputable" breeders.


No they don't. People make their choices, nobody forces them or "pushes" them anywhere. 
As you found, there's other shelters w/out such requirements. 
This is the same argument over and over and I posted already about this. 
If people want what they want, when they want it, and are told "no" from the "cheapest source" (rescue usually) then they'll get it another way. And what's sad - perhaps the 1st shelter was trying to save you the grief of watching your dogs rip a cat apart - how were they to know if your dogs would be okay? That's really moot, but the point being, sometimes people are not ready for a pet, not really, and when told "no" by a shelter, they forget ahead and acquire a pet SOMEHOW, then within weeks or months, give up said pet. 
Sometimes other people know better than the applicants themselves, but that's very ego-bruising to understand.

A fenced yard requirement?? Rescues are trying to save owners from watching their beloved pet get squished out on the highway! Or the dog lost another way - or the dog from chasing a cat and harming it because of prey-drive. The list goes on. And not to mention, fences make housetraining ever so much easier (ask Chelle about how much better life is w/her yard fenced!!!)


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Tiffseagles said:


> My post was meant to address previous posts (should have quoted) that were of the opinion that cost did not influence the type of person interested in the animal - according to this study there is some sort of issue either on the dog side (possibly cheaper dogs have more health/behavior issues) or on the human side (cheap dogs aren't much of an investment so are more easily surrendered) or a combination of both. I'm inclined to believe that as with most situations that I see, the fault is on the human side.


I agree, the fault is the human, can't really blame the animals here however I think (Personally) at the end of the day there are committed owners and non committed owners. Regardless of the price of the animal, some owners will surrender the animal for a variety of reasons (unsuitable, unable to train, can't afford etc) and some owners would sell their kidneys to pay for their dogs well being . There are always going to be those two groups.

One guy I know from the local dog park is on disability after an accident at work. The disability is a pittance. He spent thousands on his GSD who had cancer (and is now recovered). He eats a boiled potato for dinner so his dog can have a can of dog food.

My two mutts (paid $25 each for them when we lived in canada, back when the CAD was worth nothing) and they were awesome dogs. Never any health issues (save a few foxtails) until they got to 14yrs, so no major medical expense. This time I have a GSD from a good breeder, I lover her as much as my previous dogs and she is part of the family as the last two mutts were. She cost more that I probably spent on my previous dogs over their entire lifetime, but that is irrelevant to me, she is treated the same.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> No they don't. People make their choices, nobody forces them or "pushes" them anywhere.
> As you found, there's other shelters w/out such requirements.
> This is the same argument over and over and I posted already about this.
> If people want what they want, when they want it, and are told "no" from the "cheapest source" (rescue usually) then they'll get it another way. And what's sad - perhaps the 1st shelter was trying to save you the grief of watching your dogs rip a cat apart - how were they to know if your dogs would be okay? That's really moot, but the point being, sometimes people are not ready for a pet, not really, and when told "no" by a shelter, they forget ahead and acquire a pet SOMEHOW, then within weeks or months, give up said pet.
> ...


Believe me the rescues around here are not the "cheapest source". You can find an animal much cheaper in the local papers. I believe most people go to rescues because they actually want to "rescue" an animal. However that may change from region to region.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

And again, they are usually altered and chipped before adoption. 
People will always do what they want to do, regardless. We ask higher fees on many of our dogs, but the people who _do _adopt, you're right, they wanted to anyway.

I see others as just selfish - they want, want, want, without thinking through the best setting for a pet, and when told "no", they run off and buy a cheap dog or even a more expensive one (pet stores), because they can't hear the word "no". 

They like to blame rescues/shelters but that's not really the truth.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> And again, they are usually altered and chipped before adoption.
> People will always do what they want to do, regardless. We ask higher fees on many of our dogs, but the people who _do _adopt, you're right, they wanted to anyway.
> 
> I see others as just selfish - they want, want, want, without thinking through the best setting for a pet, and when told "no", they run off and buy a cheap dog or even a more expensive one (pet stores), because they can't hear the word "no".
> ...


I'll be first to admit I know little/nothing about how rescues operate but it would seem to me to be better to be more flexible in adoption criteria so a neutered/health checked/evaluated/trackable dog can be put out into the populous rather than having people decide to opt for an unneutered/questionable puppy from someones oops litter which further exacerbates the problem. Make the adoption conditions reasonable with the stipulation that the adoption be evaluated after say 6 months. Make it easy for the adopters to return the animal is if doesn't work out etc etc. Maybe this is all silly talk, but I'll bet a lot of potentially good homes get rejected at rescue/shelters because of cookie cutter requirement mentality.
<edit> I base all this on my single experience with the 2 local shelters, and I realize other shelters may operate differently.

Sorry, this has definitely wandered OT. One of my personal peeves is how these threads get so convoluted, so I'll step back for a bit.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We don't use a cookie cutter approach, to an extent we do, but not like a national org. or some very huge organizations. 

People who shouldn't have dogs, just shouldn't have them. The problem is they don't recognize that. I'd never give someone a dog I felt was not going to be an exemplary owner or should not have a dog. 
And some breeds require much much more than others.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm not saying your uniformed (llombardo) but this



> Just a small note...I have spent the last couple hours on the OFA site(not AKC site), reading and reading and reading and I'm not finding anything negative..


You can not possibly trace every single puppy from every single dog on your pedigree starting in the 80's, you would then have to trace any puppies from those puppies and so on..The majority probably aren't even listed. You may not find anything negative, because not EVERY dog is going to be on that OFA site. Not everyone xrays their dogs, there is no need for a pet owner to do it if they never see any symptoms. 

To say that no dog produced a puppy (or that puppy did not produce) a dog without health issues is just not gonna happen.

And hey, it's not a bad thing, there is just no way your going to get a clean without hd/issue , in ANY line of dogs, if there was, every one and their brother would be using those lines and there would be no HD in goldens. 

Has your golden ever been xrayed?? hips & elbows? Just curious.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

pfitzpa1 said:


> I agree, the fault is the human, can't really blame the animals here however I think (Personally) at the end of the day there are committed owners and non committed owners. Regardless of the price of the animal, some owners will surrender the animal for a variety of reasons (unsuitable, unable to train, can't afford etc) and some owners would sell their kidneys to pay for their dogs well being . There are always going to be those two groups.
> 
> One guy I know from the local dog park is on disability after an accident at work. The disability is a pittance. He spent thousands on his GSD who had cancer (and is now recovered). He eats a boiled potato for dinner so his dog can have a can of dog food.
> 
> My two mutts (paid $25 each for them when we lived in canada, back when the CAD was worth nothing) and they were awesome dogs. Never any health issues (save a few foxtails) until they got to 14yrs, so no major medical expense. This time I have a GSD from a good breeder, I lover her as much as my previous dogs and she is part of the family as the last two mutts were. She cost more that I probably spent on my previous dogs over their entire lifetime, but that is irrelevant to me, she is treated the same.


The study points out a correlation, not an absolute. It means people in that category are *more likely* than the other category to surrender, not that they absolutely will. Case studies do not disprove trends. 

Please don't read this the wrong way. I tend to be straight forward. Not trying to be a jerk


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Not everyone xrays their dogs, there is no need for a pet owner to do it if they never see any symptoms.


Even if they did x-ray and saw dysplasia, chances are the dog was kept on pain meds until it got bad and then pts, without any note of it at all in the pedigrees or database.

And the OFA database doesn't tell either, how many of those dogs got craigslisted, freecycled, or taken to a shelter/rescue.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> And I never said I supported BYB's, I just happened to get two dogs that possibly fall under this category and after this thread I'm even doubting that now But the way they were advertised and the prices I paid would be considered BYB, so one can't say that just because they put up an ad that they aren't responsible about what they do--just like anything else it requires *common sense and some research*.


So you got your Golden by seeing a sign in a window and you got your GSD off of Craig's List... somehow I fail to see where the common sense and research come into play here. Just tryin' to understand...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Falkosmom said:


> So you got your Golden by seeing a sign in a window and you got your GSD off of Craig's List... somehow I fail to see where the common sense and research come into play here. Just tryin' to understand...


*I am not discussing it any more, I have always been happy with my dogs and I could care less what you think. They are my babies, I would do anything for them, and I love them..that is all that matters to me. I'm not going to put a price tag on their heads because they are truly priceless*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Nobody said you need to do anything - other than stop touting the superiority of byb dogs, simply because you lucked out when you got yours.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Ok enough, and this is the last time I'm saying it, (myself included) lets get BACK ON TOPIC.. the op probably has left the building because weeding thru all this off topic stuff isn't helping them


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Nobody said you need to do anything - other than stop touting the superiority of byb dogs, simply because you lucked out when you got yours.



Do you know how to read? Every post I made starting with the first one has been picked apart. I'm not defending anyone besides my dogs and I'm done with that also. I have never had any issues with any dogs I have rescued whether they have been pure bred or not. I have put my time, my energy, and lots of MY money into making everything right because some other idiot screwed it up so ....So yes maybe I did get lucky, but so did my dogs because they truly have the best of everything. So if you guys want to throw crap at me, I'll throw it right back because that's all it is CRAP...Have a nice Easter


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Ok enough, and this is the last time I'm saying it, (myself included) lets get BACK ON TOPIC.. the op probably has left the building because weeding thru all this off topic stuff isn't helping them



Thats right its enough, it was enough yesterday I do apologize to the OP about things going in a completely different direction, but I'm not going to have certain people disrespect me and my choices or my dogs. This is all based on my opinion and never once did I attack them first or their opinion. I stated facts based on my experiences, which have all been good and I'm sorry that some people don't think that's good enough...Happy Easter to you as well

**I won't be coming back to read or respond to this thread**


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