# Looking for a working line breeder - Vom Banach?



## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Yesterday, I had to put my younger GSD boy to sleep. He was 3.5 yrs old. Purchased from a horrible BYB by an ex boyfriend, he was already 13 weeks old, had received no outside socialization, and his bitch was so aggressive she was locked away and we were not allowed to see her. Extreme fear aggression and separation anxiety plagued this dog, but with time and tons of effort, and the work of an amazing trainer, I managed to make this a decent dog. Still fearful, still neurotic problems, but aggression largely gone.

Suddenly, in May, out of the blue he killed one of my cats. Here was a dog raised from puppy-hood in a house filled with cats and rats and numerous other animals. Of all his problems, I never ONCE thought he would go after one of the cats. He had NEVER shown any previous aggression to any of our other pets. Within the last week he has gone after my other cat twice, in the process destroying my bed and half my bedroom. After the second attempt, I realized that no matter how much I loved this little, sweet dog of mine, his problems were too much to handle and I couldn't put my cats through that any more. 

I miss him so much, and the thought of replacing him at this point is heartbreaking. But I know I want a puppy within the next six months or so, so I know I should start contacting breeders now.

I want a male black sable dog that would be largely companion, but I would also love to get involved in the sport of schutzhund, just as a hobby part time competitor. Luther was my swimming buddy, my bike riding companion, my activity partner. I miss him so much, but I also miss the thought of not having a dog to do these activities with.

I live in Colorado but am willing to ship/travel for a puppy. I have always liked the idea of Vom Banach, especially after they got Irvin (he is BEAUTIFUL!). But any other breeder suggestions? And is Vom Banach a decent kennel?

Thank you!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Before I would ever recommend another GSD for you, I'd ask about the dog you put down.

How many dog classes did you go to with this dog? How many trainers and what methods?

Did you crate train and know what that means?

How many MILES of off leash exercise did the dog get weekly?

What other organized training were you in? Herding, tracking, agility, obedience?

Many people have busy lives and not much time to give the necessary TIME and energy that many of our GSD's need so they turn out wonderful. But there are many other breeds that are much less demanding and won't end up paying with their lives for our mistake in choosing the wrong breed for our lifestyle.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Just a note of caution, many dogs do not like cats and I don't think that is something a breeder can guarantee. Maybe you need to have a plan on what to do with a new dog if they do not like your cats because no good breeder is going to be ok with that being a reason for euthanizing the dog.


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## Dan mc (May 5, 2011)

Please don't get another dog.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

From what I'm understanding, you euthanized a healthy, young GSD because his prey drive became directed at your cats and you were unable to correct it in the 3 months since the first cat attack in May, and in the meantime, he destroyed your bed and other furniture. (I presume he destroyed the furniture by chewing on it when he was locked in the bedroom to keep him from the cats?) 

Now you want to buy a *working-line *GSDpuppy from a breeder _advertising that they specialize in high prey drive_. 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding...is this a fair interpretation of what you've written?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but was a perfectly healthy dog put down because it had prey drive (completely normal) and couldn't be separated from possible prey when you were unable to supervise - something very simple to do?

What's going to happen when this next one starts chasing around the cats? I highly recommend you think this through a little more.

And to be honest with you, I don't think anyone's going to recommend another puppy for you from any breeder given your situation and past.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

fear problems or not, most dogs with high prey drive will try a couple of times to chase a cat. If you cannot interrupt it quickly, and the cat doesn't have an escape route or defense , the cat is basically dead meat. 

Based on your story it sounds like you euthanized a healthy dog for a very natural and common drive, that you will find the same, if not more of in an additional dog. 

Sounds like the German Shepherd is not the breed for you. They are not for everyone.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Well I have a working line litter due in two days and no way I would place a pup with you. With all due respect,chasing cats happens. Prey drive. If i put dogs to sleep for the behavior you described i would have an empty kennel. I would take some other posters advice and research another breed.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I don't understand why, if you really couldn't handle the situation, you didn't rehome the dog with someone who didn't have a cat. 

I've fostered a couple of dogs who wanted to eat my cats and had to keep everyone separate by rotating them to different parts of the house and outside. It worked for the time being and the dogs went to homes without cats. The rescue didn't blink an eye when I told them they couldn't go with cats- it's not something that's unheard of.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

How could you have a healthy dog you claimed to care about killed? You could have given the dog to someone without cats. If you were worried a new owner wouldn't be able to deal with the dog, you could've found new homes for your cats and kept the dog. At least then all the animals would've lived.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

People, I understand this is a situation that many find emotional and don't agree with. However that doesn't mean that the board rules no longer apply. Personal attacks are not allowed.

If you cannot respond in a manner that is respectful, then don't post. 
If you have no desire to help educate the OP, then don't post.

-Admin


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

As others have said, it looks like a working GSD might not be the best fit for your family. I got on google and looked up Colorado GSD rescues, here are some of the ones that popped up:

Snow Capped Shepherd Rescue - Home
German Shepherd Rescue of Central Colorado
German Shepherd Rescue of the Rockies

I have no experience with any of these rescues, but maybe someone else on the board can chime in.
Look for a rescue that does cat-testing. If the dog has not already passed, don't consider it. You may have further issues (no dog is perfect and no temperament test infallible) but it will greatly reduce your odds. Plus, an adult dog will have an energy level that you can manage. If you do have issues with the new dog an established rescue should offer to take the dog back and find him a different home. That will avoid further unnecessary euthanizations.

I hope this is helpful for you! If anybody has any experiences with these rescues I'm sure the OP would appreciate input.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I agree with everyone. Working dogs should have high prey drive. The same cat issues could very well come up again. I have 2 at my house along with 2 indoor cats. The dogs were taught to leave the cats alone. And I have no problems with them. Even a show line or pet line will have some prey drive. They are German Shepherds. I also think that you should look into a different (non-working) breed.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Well I'll be the oddball out. Even in my own mind, I have a hard time with my thoughts/beliefs on dealing with aggressive dogs. In theory, I have little problem with the idea that aggressive dogs should be put down: period. In practice, I'm not sure how I feel and tend to think animals deserve a chance at a civil, loving life. I read your post, you enlisted a trainer, you worked on the aggression issues, you exercised the dog through biking, swimming, other activities. Those things alone are more than some do. I'm not sure why there is so much criticism of your actions.

There was a thread on this board, maybe even more than a year ago, about the responsibility of the owner in euth'ing aggressive dogs. It was surprising how many did say that they would euth an aggressive dog without hesitation. I'm not sure I disagree with them. You stated the dog came from terrible breeding stock and had terrible problems. What a miserable life it must have been for both you (in maintaining a safe environment for all) and for the dog whose brain must have been a neurotic mess. I can't imagine that the three instances mentioned regarding the cat were the _only_ reason the dog was put down. In reading your post, I'll choose to take the glass half full view and say that you did a lot more than most would have- AND you didn't pass the dog's issues onto someone else through rehoming. You humanely took the responsibility for the dog and took the measures needed. I'll come right out and say it- THANKS for taking the responsibility in making the hard decision to _not_ pass the dog's issues onto someone else, or to some shelter. We do have that responsibility, though not all of us have the guts to step up to the plate and follow through.

Regarding working line breeders, we consistently hear on this forum how there will very often be lower drive companion animals that are well suited for the "pet home" who might not have the experience or desire to deal with high prey drive. You just need to be crystal clear in your expectations when speaking with the breeder. And the breeder should be crystal clear that they do or do not have a dog that fits your needs... There is certainly _*nothing*_ wrong with wanting a _sound_ dog from a reputable breeder and I get so sick of people recommending rescue when people have such requests for a soundly breed GSD.

Personally, I think the prospect of choosing a WL GSD is both terrifying and deeply intriguing at the same time. I worry about getting "too much" dog, yet often read about how much "easier" they are to deal with, train, and settle. I would not drop your aspirations for a WL shep, but I would make sure you are clear with yourself on what you're getting, and clear with your breeder on what you want.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

wildo said:


> Well I'll be the oddball out. Even in my own mind, I have a hard time with my thoughts/beliefs on dealing with aggressive dogs. In theory, I have little problem with the idea that aggressive dogs should be put down: period. In practice, I'm not sure how I feel and tend to think animals deserve a chance at a civil, loving life. I read your post, you enlisted a trainer, you worked on the aggression issues, you exercised the dog through biking, swimming, other activities. Those things alone are more than some do. I'm not sure why there is so much criticism of your actions.
> 
> There was a thread on this board, maybe even more than a year ago, about the responsibility of the owner in euth'ing aggressive dogs. It was surprising how many did say that they would euth an aggressive dog without hesitation. I'm not sure I disagree with them. You stated the dog came from terrible breeding stock and had terrible problems. What a miserable life it must have been for both you (in maintaining a safe environment for all) and for the dog whose brain must have been a neurotic mess. I can't imagine that the three instances mentioned regarding the cat were the _only_ reason the dog was put down. In reading your post, I'll choose to take the glass half full view and say that you did a lot more than most would have- AND you didn't pass the dog's issues onto someone else through rehoming. You humanely took the responsibility for the dog and took the measures needed. I'll come right out and say it- THANKS for taking the responsibility in making the hard decision to _not_ pass the dog's issues onto someone else, or to some shelter. We do have that responsibility, though not all of us have the guts to step up to the plate and follow through.


 
There is a huge difference between aggression and prey drive!

There is no reason a dog with prey drive strong enough to kill another pet couldn't be rehomed to a house with no cats. 
There are plenty of dogs who kill cats and live normal lives in houses that don't have cats. I know of a couple of people who have cat and other small animal killing dogs- but don't have small animals. 

As I said in my previous post, I have fostered dogs who would have killed my cats and did kill squirrels and I managed them until they went to their cat-free homes. There they have been living happily for the last couple of years, with no problems.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> There is a huge difference between aggression and prey drive!


I completely agree. But I wasn't there to witness the difference. Were you? Or anyone else in this thread? I didn't see anything about prey drive in the OP. I saw this:



Anubis_Star said:


> *his bitch was so aggressive* she was locked away and we were not allowed to see her.
> 
> * Extreme fear aggression *and separation anxiety plagued this dogdog.
> 
> Still fearful, *still neurotic problems*, but aggression largely gone.


Everyone is _speculating_ that this was a prey drive issue (just like I'm speculating that it might not have been prey drive- and further speculating that the attack on the cat was not the ONLY issue, but just the last straw)


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

You're not an oddball wildo, you're an incredibly resourceful and creative or something like that 

But really, while I don't have a problem with people making these decisions about THEIR pets, I certainly won't be helping them find another dog either.

I don't really fault people that have taken steps to cure something and then decide they can't pass off the problem so they end the pets life. Whether it be killing cats, biting kids, severe SA etc. I will certainly hold them accountable when it comes to any future actions.

A dog with otherwise good temperament but it has a taste for kitties can certainly and should have steps taken to find it a home where it can be a loved pet in my opinion. If another person doesn't think so and puts it to sleep, well, don't be coming to me looking for recomendations on your new dog. as far as i'm concerned you'd be better off with a fish, it is accpetable to just flush them down the toilet when you're done with them.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Thank you Waldo, your post was kind and inspiring. The other posts, in all honesty, were cruel and brought me to tears. My heart aches, I want my dog back so bad it is unimaginable. Especially since I am sitting here at work (I am a veterinary technician), and I know he is in a freezer two rooms over, waiting to be picked up for cremation. I guess I should better explain my actions, although I feel sick and disgusted with those on this board, for attacking and not taking the time to read or understand.


This is a dog that stemmed from extremely poor breeding. EXTREME fear aggression. To the point that he was actively attacking every human and dog that came within 20 feet of him, at 16 weeks of age. We had several vets tell us to put him down then. We went through numerous trainers, from positive only to more "old school" methods, until finally working with a trainer that did PP training, PD training, was a national schutzhund judge and decoy. He made leaps and bounds and got better, but because he was an ex's dog that was purchased while we lived together, there was a 6 month period after we broke up that I did not have this dog. In that time he did bite several people, and for that alone should of been euthanized, no?

I eventually got him back when I learned my ex was trying to sell him for drug money. At this time he was about a year and a half old. Again, over time and with training he got a LITTLE better, but not much. Still largely aggressive, had to be locked away or muzzled around strangers. Out in public he did pretty well, he had mostly learned to just back away from situations that scared him, like strangers. But still had to be muzzled. No problem, I was willing to do that. 



EXTREME separation anxiety, alone for more then a couple of hours caused severe stress colitis. Large amounts of diarrhea, even when kenneled. He actually INJURED himself numerous times trying to break out of kennels, we tried wire and plastic sided. Then he got hot spots because he would have diarrhea in his kennel and sit in it. I started just bringing him to work with me. Worked pretty well, except none of the kennel technicians could go in the back kennels because of the way he would attack the bars. He was crate trained as a pup, PROPERLY, I don't know why he got so bad in later years. I think when my ex had him for that 6 months he just largely locked him in the back yard and ignored him. 



We finally got down to a good routine of just locking him in the back bedroom, with a basket muzzle on. But at times he would rip the basket muzzle off and give himself some pretty good lacerations in the process. 


And still had stress colitis. And the destruction!


I did finally try medication. Fluoxetine, or prozac. It did seem to help calm him down a little, but not much. We also tried homeopathic solutions such as Res-Q, I bought him a thunder vest. Then came the issue of going on vacation, because I work hard and feel like I deserve some time off, don't I? But the only person willing to watch him was my sister, and she has a 2 year old toddler. I am NOT risking them with a 90lb, aggressive dog. He was very aggressive in kennel situations, but couldn't easily be sedated because of the Fluoxetine. It reacts with medications such as Ace or Valium.


In May, he killed TJ, my little female cat. Now, I know prey drive. I respect prey drive. I had a husky!! So I understand. Which is why he wasn't immediately euthanized then. I mean, I have cats and rats and snakes and lizards, all of which he was raised around and taught to LEAVE ALONE. But after he went after TJ, something flipped in his mind. After that, ALL his other problems, like the stress colitis and aggression and anxiety, all the problems that had slowly gotten better with time and training and medication and age got WORSE. It got the the point that he started growling at housemates for coming near my bedroom while I was in there sleeping. Of course he would be corrected, but I can only imagine if my 90 year old grandmother had of come over one day while I was asleep, and startled him and he snapped!


Then, he started going after the other cat. I don't think you understand the amount of destruction caused. EVERYTHING ripped off my desk and night stand, the actual bed frame was pulled out from the wall to the middle of the room. The box spring was shredded, the mattress has giant holes in it. Everything is covered in cat urine, and my poor cat was shaking and terrified up in the window, covered in his own urine. Diarrhea and vomit everywhere. And that scene happened TWICE in one week. I've been sleeping on the couch because I need a new bed but it hurts to even go in my room.



He sounds like a horrible dog, but he wasn't. He was sweet, and cute, and had such a personality. Two days before I euthanized, we went on a 10 mile bike ride around Cherry Creek State Park, with a 45 minute swim break in the reservoir. I tried to take him on bike rides at LEAST 3-4 times a week. I work in Boulder, it's BEAUTIFUL here, and I have two hour long lunches so we would go on my lunch break, I would throw the bike on my bike rack on my car. Usually we went on at least 5+ mile rides. On days we didn't go on the bike, we went for a walk around a local lake (exactly 1.8 miles around), and we always stopped in the middle so he could swim. He LOVED swimming, he would swim out as far as you could throw the ball. And he never wanted to leave, even when he was exhausted he would just lay in the water and whine And we played fetch, and went hiking. I'm VERY active, I love to hike and climb and camp and fish. He had his own little doggy back pack and little boots. 


I would of LOVED to do something like schutzhund or agility when I got him. But I couldn't! Fear aggression and animal aggression. I couldn't trust him off lead in a strange and loud environment surrounded by tons of people and other dogs!! Are you all insane??


I euthanized after careful consideration with a behaviorist, a trainer, and all the veterinarians in my clinic. It was NOT a choice made quickly. And in the end, everyone agreed it was for the best. 



I don't want a rescue dog. I don't want a "broken" dog like my poor Luther. I want a sound, well bred dog. I feel like I can handle a german shepherd. I didn't just kill a dog because it attacked a cat. Like I said, I had a husky, I understand prey drive. I humanely euthanized my dog because he could NOT be rehomed, he already had a history of biting people, no rescue would take him (they told me over the phone they would just euthanize, which they should of because he was a liability!) And as selfish as I even sound to myself, I couldn't live like this for the rest of his life. I couldn't medicate a dog and never have nice things and never have people over and be cleaning up diarrhea every day and fear for my cats for the next ten years and never go on vacation or leave home for longer then 12 hours. And what if in the next 3-4 years I want to get married and have a family?? And besides, what is the other option, rehome my cat? My geriatric, grey tabby that has health problems (chronic lymphadenopathy). 75% of shelter cats are euthanized, to get rid of a cat like that is almost sentencing it to death!


I WANT to do sports! I WANT to have an active dog! I want to compete in things like schutzhund, and agility, and obedience! I've already been researching clubs in my area! I don't think because I made this choice, I shouldn't be able to have a dog. ESPECIALLY a well bred animal that is much more likely to have a sound temperament. A dog that doesn't injure itself and have diarrhea everywhere while kenneled is allowed to have prey drive. Because it will be well stimulated, and trained. And properly confined while away from the home. But a dog like Luther, a dog like that can't be managed. And how stressed was he? What kind of life did he have? Honestly, how "happy" was he? He was only healthy on the outside. On the inside, I'm afraid my little Lu-dog was very, very sick.


I have a 5 year old German Shepherd as well, that I purchased at 7 weeks of age. I did EXTENSIVE socialization with him when he was young, lots of training, and he is an amazing dog.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

crackem said:


> You're not an oddball wildo, you're an incredibly resourceful and creative or something like that


Thanks for the compliment! :rofl:



crackem said:


> A dog with otherwise good temperament but it has a taste for kitties can certainly and should have steps taken to find it a home where it can be a loved pet in my opinion. If another person doesn't think so and puts it to sleep, well, don't be coming to me looking for recomendations on your new dog. as far as i'm concerned you'd be better off with a fish, it is accpetable to just flush them down the toilet when you're done with them.


To be clear, *I also am not OK with euthing a dog that simply has more prey drive than you can handle.* (Breeders- don't black list me!!  )I totally agree with you that a dog with an otherwise good temperament, etc, etc, SHOULD be rehomed! I don't want anyone getting me wrong here... I agree with ALL of you in that respect. I'm just saying that the way I read the OP, the dog wasn't painted in a way that said "he's a wonderful perfect GSD except he has high prey drive." That's not at all what I read.

But yes- euthing a dog because of a drive issue you can't handle is 100% unacceptable!


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

I'll post what I PMd you as a public apology as well:
I am sorry I assumed that you put Luther down for attacking the cats. From your original post, it seemed that the reason you put him down was because he killed a cat, but I, and everyone else, should have asked for a clearer explaination first and didn't. You obviously tried very hard with Luther. Again, my apologies.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I am so sorry for your loss. As the owner of a dog that showed the starts of fear aggression, I understand your situation. I never go anywhere except my boyfriends home in Dallas because he grew up with my boyfriend's family and they are the only people he is not scared of. I can't have him out when friends are over, and I have to board him if anyone but my sister or boyfriend come to stay. Luckily, Rocky is more manageable...he is good with strangers and people outside of my house. But IN my house he is a fearful mess when strangers come over, to the point of drooling excessively. He doesn't have the crate issues that your dog did, but if he had I can understand how terrible it would have been.

I completely support your decision. I am happy his fearful days are over.


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## Mr & Mrs Kirkley (Mar 9, 2012)

I apologize. In your first post, it sounded like your dog was put down for having prey drive. After reading all the details, it sounds like you did everything you could. Putting him down was the right thing to do. I like to think that when people die, they reunite with their animals on the other side. Hopefully one of the posters on here can point you in the direction of someone that breeds working line German Shepherds.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

OH WOW Anubis, I am really really sorry we assumed. 

I hope you can find a good breeder who can provide you with the companion you always wanted. I am so sorry you had to go through that. RIP


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Anubis for fully explaining your experience. I am very sorry for your loss. Sometimes dogs are just broken and there isn't much we can do for them except release them from their demons.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

well that certainly sheds a bit different light upon things


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

This explanation makes it all make much more sense. The original post left me with the impression that you had been successful in working through his many issues, until the first cat event happened. Thank you for taking the time to offer the full explanation, which I'm sure was painful to relive as you wrote it. It shows this was a difficult, painful decision, and the end of a long, long battle to try to save a troubled dog. I'm sorry to have misunderstood your original post, and most of all, I'm sorry for your loss.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

I am very sorry for your loss, you did the right thing. No dog should have to walk the Earth terrified of everyone, living in a world of fear. 

This is the kennel you are talking about? Working German Shepherd Breeder | DDR German Shepherd Breeder

I was looking at this same kennel for a puppy! I absolutely LOVE the way their males look; large blocky head, masculinity all the way around. All of their males have SchH titles along with others, which is good, but some of their bitches don't have any titles at all. (they may be going through training though) I, personally, don't think you should have to pay $1,500-$2,000 for a quality working dog, when their Dam isn't even titled. I think $1,200-$1,500 would be better. I did see some titling in some of the bitch's family, so that is a good sign. I still really like the looks of this kennel, but I won't be purchasing a puppy from them. The bitches not being titled might not be much of a concern to you, but I believe it is something to keep in mind. 
Good luck either way!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Vom Banach is a very good kennel, and Julie is an awesome breeder. Should you get a dog from there? I don't know in your situation. You like the looks but these dogs possess a fair amount of aggression. Good aggression, true to GSD breed, that is channeled to work, but that can turn into a disaster in pet owner's hands. I am afraid that because of your recent experience your future puppy will be under a microscope, and every move that remotely can be interepreted as aggression will be a trigger for 'early intervention' with behaviorists, trainers etc, and it will make everything worse and may ruin the dog. I am sorry for your loss, and I really think that you should get West German working line for SchH work. 
The above is my personal opinion, and I would encourage you to talk to Julie and tell her your story and your expectations. She will steer you in the right direction.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm sorry for your loss but I have to agree with the above poster. 

Can I ask why if you have a 5 yr old GSD as well, why not do any sports with that dog? There are so many fun things to do out there that don't involve schutzhund (tho I am by no means saying don't do that!)


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ OP.....I thought you did the right thing the first time I read your post......that's why I didn't comment. I am sorry for your loss and admire the efforts you went through to make this thing work out up unto the end. I think you will make a German Shepherd in the future very happy! Banach has nice dogs as well as some other breederd who have black sables bing bred.....do your homework and I'm sure you make out fine.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I agree with Cliff. After all you been through and done to work with this dog, you deserve a well bred companion, and I think you'd do very well with another working line pup because you've been there and done that, and did all that was necessary to try and understand the behavior of your dog. Very few would've done what you did to try and rehabilitate this dog, including myself. I would guess that after enduring such a traumatic experience, you have gained a lot of necessary skills to better prepare yourself for the next pup. I don't know anything about Vom Banach, so I would just say to stick around, and read some threads. You'll find a lot of good breeder names here and then you can talk to each individually with your wishes and hopes for your next pup. I wish you all the best and hope you find the pup of dreams!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Thank you everyone for the recommendations. Zeke, my older boy, is an amazing dog, but he is also a BYB special straight from the newspaper. He's only 5 but I'm pretty sure he has HD and possibly arthritis. He is a great companion dog, but very low drive and mellow and not a great sport companion. 

I don't want to put my next pup under a microscope, so that's why I want to do the right thing. Definitely talk to the breeders, get their true honest opinions. Like I said, I also am working at contacting schutzhund clubs in the area, and I think I will just continue to work with the trainer I saw for Luther, I thought he was a great trainer and because he's a schutzhund judge he can help me if I want to pursue that, or just keep me in line to train and handle a great family companion.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Extreme fear aggression and separation anxiety plagued this dog, but with time and tons of effort, and the work of an amazing trainer, I managed to make this a decent dog. Still fearful, still neurotic problems, but aggression largely gone

From the outset I thought that this cat-killing was the straw that broke the camel's back . Wildo I agree . There was an enormous effort made to give the dog a chance at a good life and for that did live longer than he might have had these people (OP) not come along.

concentrate on temperament and suitability not get hung up on black sable


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## sharktank1123 (Jul 22, 2012)

Wow, I followed this thread from the post and I'm glad you've came out and told everyone what the true situation was. I thought it was too quick to judge based on your original post, you didn't give a full background initially, but I am glad you did.

I hope you are able to find a great, loving GSD pup with a great temperment! You deserve it! I wish I had more info, but I am still researching myself!

Good Luck!


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Thank you for the clarification. Certainly NOT a prey drive issue. You did the right thing. 
My one dog has very high drives, but she is happy to play with a toy on the bed WITH the cats and chill out when she isn't working. A good dog should be balanced. Good luck on your search.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

It really sounds like Luther had something going on that could not be seen. I would almost suspect a brain tumor. Something was just not right with him, not put together right. I got from your first post that you had already tried eveything, and actually made my conclusion from that. But after your detailed post, I think that even more. He just wasnt right in the head. 

I will recommend my breeder. She raises her pups around cats. Yoko was not around cats when I had her as a pup. I rescued 5 kittens that were dumped at a friends barn that was already over run with cats. She was over a year at that time, hadnt seen a cat/kitten since she left her breeders @ 9 wks. She loved on them and played with them. It was a slow introduction, and she HAD to platz when near them. That she quickly learned.
Getting a pup and raising it with your cats will be fine.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Anubis, as a member of this forum I'm really sorry people jumped on you like that. When I read the original post I figured there was a lot more to the story and you sounded very reasonable so I did not see any need to make assumptions or judgments. I've deal with some crazy fear behaviors myself and don't really like to talk about it publicly to people that have no bearing on the situation and have never observed the dog. You didn't owe anyone here any sort of explanation. Hopefully people can help you find a nice dog....


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I've deal with some crazy fear behaviors myself and don't really like to talk about it publicly to people that have no bearing on the situation and have never observed the dog. You didn't owe anyone here any sort of explanation. Hopefully people can help you find a nice dog....


Thank you! I realize after I posted, I should of just left Luther out completely. Of course it still brings up a lot of raw emotions for me, and you're completely right, that's nobodies business except whatever breeders I contact and speak to. 

I should of simply stuck to the facts, I would like my next GSD to be a WL male, I do love the black sables but of course everyone is right color is NOT the most important factor, he will largely be companion but I would like to pursue doing some hobby sport work such as schutzhund or agility, and I am very active so he would get a lot of exercise such as hiking, swimming, lots of bike riding (once he's old enough of course  )


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Anubius, sorry fro your loss of a GSD. I went through the process about 2years ago of looking for a puppy here in Colorado including coming up with interview questions and then did my search. I am also active in working my dog in Schutzhund, while I am no expert i would be happy to share my results of looking through a pm.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss. I know you tried everything with your pup. He is in a better place now, without need to be scared and worried. I hope things work out for you and your family.


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## Ishmail (Jul 17, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear but please don't bring a puppy into the house while your still in mourning because that puppy will begin displaying dominant behavior and see you as a weak pack leader. When your ready I would absolutely recommend True Haus, I am currently raising a pup for them for my cousin and my own pup will arrive in Semptember. Cindy has been amazing, I absolutely love talking to her and i have learned so much from her. All of their dogs are exceptional and a quick search on them will prove it. Again I am sorry for what happened, you did your best and it was not your fault by any means.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> I am so sorry to hear but please don't bring a puppy into the house while your still in mourning because that puppy will begin displaying dominant behavior and see you as a weak pack leader.


I respectively disagree with this 

While some may not be ready for a puppy while mourning the loss of another, there are others, like myself, who don't see the need to wait and it certainly won't make that person a weak pack leader. 

There are so many good breeders out there it shouldn't be to hard to find what your looking for


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## Ishmail (Jul 17, 2011)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I respectively disagree with this
> 
> While some may not be ready for a puppy while mourning the loss of another, there are others, like myself, who don't see the need to wait and it certainly won't make that person a weak pack leader.
> 
> There are so many good breeders out there it shouldn't be to hard to find what your looking for



Completely understand your point. I would love nothing more than a person to bring something into their life that begins to heal a loss. My only worry would be that the person might be overly affectionate in that vulnerable state making descipline difficult. Then you find yourself in somewhat of a similar problem. So I just want her to keep it in mind, if she believes she can raise a pup and and not let things slip when the pup requires correcting than go for it  My neighbors lost a St.Bernard, took on another one too soon and he's showing food aggression, people aggression and other dominant behaviors. Last dog didnt have any of those issues, and thats what too much affection can do.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Understand what your saying


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Too much affection can cause aggression and dominate behavior?? New to me... You don't think genetics could've been a factor in your friend's St. Bernard?


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Lakl said:


> Too much affection can cause aggression and dominate behavior?? New to me... You don't think genetics could've been a factor in your friend's St. Bernard?


I can understand the reasoning behind it. Genetics and set temperament only go so far in a dog, environment plays a strong factor as well (of course I think genetics is the strongest factor). If you get a strong willed dog that is NEVER corrected, NEVER trained, NEVER worked with, constantly coddled, and basically allowed free run of it's environment, I think aggression most certainly could be a result. Now of course on the other hand, it could of been complete genetic aggression at play.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Ishmail said:


> Completely understand your point. I would love nothing more than a person to bring something into their life that begins to heal a loss. My only worry would be that the person might be overly affectionate in that vulnerable state making descipline difficult. Then you find yourself in somewhat of a similar problem. So I just want her to keep it in mind, if she believes she can raise a pup and and not let things slip when the pup requires correcting than go for it  My neighbors lost a St.Bernard, took on another one too soon and he's showing food aggression, people aggression and other dominant behaviors. Last dog didnt have any of those issues, and thats what too much affection can do.


Wrong, you are reading too much into it. Aggression issues and dominance, have nothing to do with the emotional state of the owner.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

lemans said:


> Wrong, you are reading too much into it. Aggression issues and dominance, have nothing to do with the emotional state of the owner.


I think what she meant was that the emotional state of the owner can affect the way they treat their dog. For example, an overly stressed person might not want to deal with a dog's behavior issues, and so ignore them or stick the dog outside. A person in a state of anger might be too harsh. A person feeling sad and vulnerable may tend to coddle. Emotions creep into training, if indeed any training is done--for a person in a heightened emotional state may not even have the wherewithall to train their dog.

So I think the point made was a good one; people have to be in the right frame of mind to be able to take on the responsibility of a dog or puppy.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The reason people jumped all over you is that you gave us part of the information without all the details. It was your decision to make rather than rehoming, and I'm sure it was painful for you. There are dogs that shouldn't be rehomed, although that is usually the first recommendation. What's done is done. One reason I read through all the posts before replying is that I didn't want to jump to conclusions. Having worked extensively with a trainer on an unpredictable dog, I don't think anyone here has the right to make you feel defensive about your choice without having seen the dog themselves. However, when you do contact a breeder, if asked whether or not you have ever had a dog euthanized for behavior, you need to give the full list of reasons why you made that choice, including the vet's opinion. It's one thing to have a dog that is somewhat untrained or out of control, another a dog that is so unpredictable you don't trust it in any situation. A breeder is going to need to be sure that you won't take a good dog, mistrain it or mistreat it in some way and then have it euthanized, so you need to present the situation to show what you are going to do for and with the dog, the older dog you've trained successfully and assure the person you are a competent and good dog owner.

We kept the unpredictable dog, but I don't own cats and I would never have trusted him with any type of small animal other than a dog.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

Freestep said:


> I think what she meant was that the emotional state of the owner can affect the way they treat their dog. For example, an overly stressed person might not want to deal with a dog's behavior issues, and so ignore them or stick the dog outside. A person in a state of anger might be too harsh. A person feeling sad and vulnerable may tend to coddle. Emotions creep into training, if indeed any training is done--for a person in a heightened emotional state may not even have the wherewithall to train their dog.
> 
> So I think the point made was a good one; people have to be in the right frame of mind to be able to take on the responsibility of a dog or puppy.


If that' the case, I agree. I understood it another way.


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## Cisa (Feb 25, 2013)

We recently added a sable female from Vom Banach. She is 14 wks old, very smart, very active. We live close enough so we could pick her up from Vom Banach. We drove 5 hrs, and she met us at the gate. We never got to see her facility so I could not say if the pic on her web site are of her kennels. We did get to see our puppies sire, beautiful. Be careful and read the contract before you send any money. It is very binding and make a copy of it before you sign it and send it back if you choose to buy. Your breeding rights are voided and if certain tests are not done your contract is voided. Dont get me wrong we love our puppy and we are starting her training in a working dog. Just be sure you know what you are getting


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are many many commercial kennels who are all about selling as many pups as they can produce - and really do not care about what kinds of homes they get. They will sell you a pup no questions asked - as long as they get their money. 

You were pretty clear in your initial post that Luther had problems from day 1 I thought......I do understand why you let Luther go....I am sorry - I realize how horrible and how painful it must have been to have to do this....even facing losing a 12 year old who is failing is horrible - to have to make that choice over poor temperament with a young relatively healthy dog is even more unthinkable.....

Many working line dogs cannot live with cats....I have had one that was obsessed - loved him to death, but would not take that risk...he was absolutely a love and as stable a dog who ever walked the earth...he is a many leveled certified SAR dog now...in a home with no cats.....I just got a new Bengal kitten (5 mo.) after losing my 21 year old Bengal.....except that the cat thinks Csabre is her mother and sleeps and plays more with Csabre than me....and Csabre has a pretty strong prey drive...she will try to kill rats at the horse barn and back in the woods behind the house....but she knows our cats are not prey.

If you want to train....go out to the clubs nearest you, and see the dogs working and ask their advise on what to buy....take some pedigrees of prospective litters with you....I know I spent some time talking to a CO trainer at the Nationals...and know there are certain lines they really would rather not train and why....so before you make any commitments - do yourself a favor and start your foundation research close to home....

Lee


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## Daisy (Jan 4, 2009)

So sorry you had to go through this. I hope you find the perfect dog for you. I hope you will be at peace you did all you could do.


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## USMC-k9 (Feb 6, 2013)

I'm very sorry for your loss. When you spoke about your ex trying to sell the dog for drug money it reminded me of something my best friend went through last year. His sister was dating this low life that was into drugs. One night his dog (part wolf) got into his stash while everyone was asleep and walked into her 2 year old sons room and killed the little boy while he slept. 

You did what you felt was the most humane and safe thing for the dog, other animals, and more importantly other people. You should be respected for it.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

You guys know this is an old thread from July, right?


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