# Not a "sport prospect"?



## sechattin

My pup, Kaiju, is now 9 months old and has done beginner through advanced obedience so a couple months ago I started him on agility basics at a training center. I'm definitely very interested in the sport, but I'm still a newbie - really don't know too much about it, never trained a dog in it, didn't even know it existed until a couple years ago. 

He was doing well in foundations, but when the class moved on to actually learning the obstacles, we sort of got relegated to the back of the class and never really got to put in any practice time on the obstacles. When I talked to the trainer leading the class about it, she told me that it was because Kaiju is not a "sport prospect". When I asked her why, she said in no uncertain terms that my shepherd would not be able to keep up with a collie or aussie and suggested I move to the "casual" agility class. 

Needless to say, I was pretty miffed. Am I just in over my head? Is it unrealistic to want him to compete seriously against the collies and aussies that inundate the agility world?

I've since moved to a different center and at 9 months he's easily sailing though tunnels, short jumps, tires, across dog walks and the like. And the trainer I'm currently working with says he certainly has the drive to work. The speed apparently is something that will likely show later when he grows out of the super awkward puppy stage he is in now. Thoughts, comments?


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## hunterisgreat

Keep doing what you're doing. Train in your chosen venue to see the picture that you want to see. Who cares if every Aussie or Collie ends up faster. Say "I'll show up with my GSD and you'll all remember us because we were fast for a GSD".


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## DJEtzel

That's very odd. I would be finding a new trainer. Sounds like she competes with collies and doesn't think any other breeds are good enough. 

I train/compete with a GSD *AND* a Border Collie. Just because they aren't as fast doesn't mean they aren't sport candidates/can't do it and win. Most don't jump the same height as collies/aussies anyway. 

He will definitely speed up once drive training is added after he knows all of the obstacles and sequences closer to two years for a larger dog. You're not in over your head at all!


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## Merciel

sechattin said:


> Am I just in over my head? Is it unrealistic to want him to compete seriously against the collies and aussies that inundate the agility world?


It depends how you define "compete seriously."

All else being equal (health, fitness, handler's skill, etc.), you're probably not going to beat a BC in agility with a GSD. The sport is pretty much made for BCs.

I think your trainer's attitude was pretty rude, but I've encountered the same attitude among the most Seriously Serious in the sport. If you're coming to them with an "off breed," there are some instructors who will be dismissive of your team. It's the same in any sport, though. Show up with a Doberman at an IPO club and you might encounter the same attitude. Bring a bull terrier to a competition obedience class and prepare for scoffing. If you have an even _slightly_ "off breed" in your sport, some people are going to be dismissive about it, because some people are just jerks.

My advice is to ignore them. If you like the sport and your dog likes it and you're enjoying the work, then keep going. Find another instructor who has the sense to welcome a newbie into the sport. Keep training. Compete if you want to compete, but remember that the purpose of the sport is to develop a partnership between yourself and your dog. As long as you're both out there enjoying yourselves and working as a team, IMO, you _have_ won.


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## hunterisgreat

Ironically I used to decoy a border collie in IPO lol... same thing but flipped


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## Lilie

I call Pooh Pooh! I'm glad you are going to a different trainer. This is all about you and your dog. What a great challenge you have now! One day, you'll be competing against her students. Smack them good!!!!


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## wolfstraum

talk to Willy Demis - he does agility with a GSD.....one of mine competes and does pretty well too! And I have seen some other GSDs doing agility There is no way that a trainer should just judge you on the dogs breed....I don't know enough about the sport as far as competition levels and tournaments etc...but very rarely does anyone with their first dog in ANY sport go to a National or World level and be among the top winners.....worst case scenerio, you decide to add anohter dog of another breed so you CAN be competitive at high levels - but you will learn a great deal about training and a sport with your first dog - regardless of the sport or the breed.

Lee


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## Baillif

Some dogs just aren't quick and flashy and destined to be competitive in sports like that regardless of breed. It might just be an honest assessment of the dog. Doesn't mean the dog can't do it for fun. Some dogs are explosive for cues naturally some are on the cusp of being there and can be made that way. Not all dogs can be "made" into super fast and flashy beasts. If that's what you want you have to go looking specifically for it.


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## KathrynApril

Wow that is pretty bad of the lady to act like that especially if you were paying them for the class. If you paid then I would think there should of been equal training time. Good to hear you changed centers.


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## Mikelia

A girl I trial with has a French bulldog who went to the AAC nationals last year. She had to place in regionals to be able to go. We have bernese mountain dogs, whippets, boston terriers and other non typical agility breeds that compete at our trials. Off breeds can do very well too. And I do not consider gsds to be an off breed. They are slower than a border collie but they are meant to work, no reason you can't earn titles. You won't likely ever make it to the worlds but who cares? 
I have been trialing in AAC (agility association of Canada) with my border collie x and will be trialing my gsd this year. My agility instructor is very supportive of all breeds. Go for it!!!


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## DJEtzel

Merciel said:


> It depends how you define "compete seriously."
> 
> All else being equal (health, fitness, handler's skill, etc.), you're probably not going to beat a BC in agility with a GSD. The sport is pretty much made for BCs.


Actually, most don't even compete against each other.  Very few BCs are jumping 24" - which almost all GSDs are unless they are veterans.


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## ApselBear

I hope you alpha rolled and/or body slammed that first trainer... I mean, good, you found a trainer who will actually teach you and your dog.


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## Jax08

Talk to MaggieLeeRose! She's the agility guru here.


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## JakodaCD OA

what a bunch of hogwash..

It's a good thing you've switched trainers , I personally can't tolerate the ones that are "pro" whatever breed and "anti" others


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## onyx'girl

show her she is WRONG! She should be encouraging you and your dog. Unless there is something physically wrong that you can't participate, she should be a positive influence in your journey.


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## Merciel

DJEtzel said:


> Actually, most don't even compete against each other.  Very few BCs are jumping 24" - which almost all GSDs are unless they are veterans.


You're right, of course, that's something I should have clarified.

It really does depend how you're defining who's competing against whom. There are so many agility organizations, height divisions, different games and classes, etc., that in a lot of trials (at least around here) there might only be one or two dogs in the less crowded divisions. So in those instances you might not be competing against _anyone_ -- you'd be the only team in that particular class, or maybe one of two or three, and the others wouldn't be BCs or Aussies either.

But I do think that if you're trying to compare a GSD's performance to what you see the top BCs and Aussies doing in agility, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. It's not fair to the dog to expect that type of performance, IMO. So if _that_ is what the OP meant (and I don't know if it was), then I don't think it's likely that any GSD is going to be "competitive" in that sense.

Again, it doesn't mean you can't do the sport or have fun with it or win high-level titles in it. There are lots of ways to define success.


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## Momto2GSDs

sechattin said:


> He was doing well in foundations, but when the class moved on to actually learning the obstacles, we sort of got relegated to the back of the class and never really got to put in any practice time on the obstacles. When I talked to the trainer leading the class about it, she told me that it was because Kaiju is not a "sport prospect". When I asked her why, she said in no uncertain terms that my shepherd would not be able to keep up with a collie or aussie and suggested I move to the "casual" agility class.


How R U D E!
Clearly this person doesn't have an encouraging bone in her body! She shouldn't even be in business! She will hold very few clients with THAT type of attitude! Agility is for EVERYONE! There are two people with handicap's I've seen at shows. One rides a segway and the other guy is in a wheelchair.....both run their dogs beautifully! 

I have a young friend who has a Basset Hound named "Dude"! You should see that boy climb a 6 foot A Frame....... and usually, at every show, people laugh and applaud with joy for that dog! She is titling him right along with the rest of us competing with our GSD's!!!

You stay with it and I hope you meet her or one of her "favorite ones" and beat their pants off at a trial some day!

Moms


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## SunCzarina

The first trainer is obnoxious. I hope you see her at trials and give her a strained smile.

Google Nomex von Gebirgshaus if you want to see what a big heavy GSD can do. His trainer/handler Wanda used to post here - I think Diane's dog is a Max daughter.


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## TwoBigEars

I'm glad you found a different trainer. The first trainer was a jerk and I hope you get to make her eat her words in a trial someday.

As Merciel said, there are some Seriously Serious people in agility. Usually they think the only True Agility Dogs are border collies or shelties. Those people aren't worth fussing over. While it's true that yeah, you'll likely have a tough time beating a border collie with a GSD, it's not impossible and even so, that is absolutely no reason for a trainer to dismiss a dog or be rude to the owner. No reason to be rude to anyone, but especially not to a newbie.

For what it's worth, one of my GSDs is easily as fast on the agility course as the border collies. Unfortunately that's no good when he can't keep the bars up...


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## sechattin

Thank you for all the encouragement! Will definitely have to check out a few of the names mentioned. And I should have been more clear when I mentioned "serious" competition. When I say that, I'm really just looking at higher titles. I'm not trying to say that I think me and Kaiju will be going to any national or world competitions. I think that may be just a bit out of our league. 

I was mostly just caught off guard by how rudely I was brushed off when I tried to talk to the previous trainer about earning higher titles in agility with my dog. From the sounds of it, I guess I just came across a bad one to start off with. The new trainer I am working with is much more encouraging but still honest about mine and my dog's abilities which is really all I was looking for. While we're not going to be taking down highly trained collie in world level competition, Kaiju is perfectly healthy, has good drive and is starting to get some good speed going, so I feel he's more than capable of achieving some more advanced titles in agility. I'll keep working hard!


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## TwoBigEars

And that's the great thing about agility in the US - you don't have to compete against other dogs to get titles. Except for a small percentage of classes and titles, you're just competing against the course. For some people, placements are still important but at local trials most of us just care about the Q. 

I'm glad your new trainer is a better fit and that you didn't give up on agility based on that rude first impression!


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## Lilie

I'm starting a Lacy in Agility. Only a handful of Lacys compete in Agility. My instructor totally rocks and is helping me bring out the best in my dog. By bringing out the best in my dog, I mean she is showing me that 99.9% of our mistakes are really MY mistakes!!! LOL! But, we are new to the sport and my dog is upping the value in my treats. We'll get there.


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## Smithie86

We have a few dogs from us that do Agility. One is just two and going for his MACH title. 

Find a good trainer that will support you and your dog.


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## GSDBESTK9

That is BS! I have competed in Agility with 2 of my GSDs. And now have 2 that would give those BCs a run for their money!!


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## MaggieRoseLee

Jax08 said:


> Talk to MaggieLeeRose! She's the agility guru here.


 Guru checking in :wild:

That first trainer is an idiot. Anyone can have fun doing agility with their dog and NO ONE who is in class paying the same amount of money as the rest should be dismissed and not taught as a group.

As long as you are listening, trying, and working as hard as everyone else then it's not up to the instructor to be so dismissive.

Go somewhere else where the instructor is a better teacher for ALL types of dogs and handlers.


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## Wolfgeist

I'd find a different trainer, that is very rude.

Keep to your goals, it doesn't matter what others say. Train hard, try your best, and have fun - in the end the important thing is that YOU and your awesome dog got out there and did it. If you want to compete, go compete. There will always be someone to say, "you can't!!" -- that's what makes it fun.


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## Dainerra

at our trial this weekend, we had 3 Chinese Cresteds, a Bull Mastiff, and a Great Dane competing.


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## KZoppa

that first trainer was a jerk. Pure and simple. If you're paying the money and working just as hard as others in the class, there's no reason to be dismissive. You may not want to compete in worlds but it shouldn't be cause to treat you or your dog that way!

I intend on at least trying agility with Dax. I know he may not be BC fast but its something fun that I think both he and I would enjoy doing! I have tunnels and a chute for just working at home for fun. That's it. Any trainer who is dismissive like that certainly doesn't deserve my money, my time, my recommendation, or the company of my dog.


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## misslesleedavis1

My gsd can blow my collie out of the water.  do what you with your dog. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

I compete with my GSD in one of the most competitive venues, USDAA. It's almost ALL border collies (even at his jump height), the courses are tight and so are the times, and you even need to beat the competition in some of the classes to earn a title in that class, or earn a championship title. 
Guess what? My GSD earned his championship!! at 8 years old- only 3 years after starting USDAA. Sure, he doesn't always beat border collies, doesn't even usually beat the border collies. But, he is having fun, is fast enough to qualify, and is consistent enough that when the faster dogs crash and burn (or just knock a bar), he can place- and actually placed 4th in Grand Prix at Regionals a couple of years ago. 
Please don't quit, but definitely find a better trainer!


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## Pax8

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Guru checking in :wild:
> 
> That first trainer is an idiot. Anyone can have fun doing agility with their dog and NO ONE who is in class paying the same amount of money as the rest should be dismissed and not taught as a group.
> 
> As long as you are listening, trying, and working as hard as everyone else then it's not up to the instructor to be so dismissive.
> 
> Go somewhere else where the instructor is a better teacher for ALL types of dogs and handlers.
> 
> 2 yr old German Shepherd, "Tang" doing agility - YouTube


That was a great run with Tang!  I definitely haven't given up on agility and I've found a much better trainer. Farther away, but it's worth it to work with a person with who is genuinely interested in helping me and my dog be the best we can be.


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## Pax8

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I compete with my GSD in one of the most competitive venues, USDAA. It's almost ALL border collies (even at his jump height), the courses are tight and so are the times, and you even need to beat the competition in some of the classes to earn a title in that class, or earn a championship title.
> Guess what? My GSD earned his championship!! at 8 years old- only 3 years after starting USDAA. Sure, he doesn't always beat border collies, doesn't even usually beat the border collies. But, he is having fun, is fast enough to qualify, and is consistent enough that when the faster dogs crash and burn (or just knock a bar), he can place- and actually placed 4th in Grand Prix at Regionals a couple of years ago.
> Please don't quit, but definitely find a better trainer!


That's awesome! I've since found a much better trainer. I'm not really sure how competitive we're going to get, but I definitely want to go as far as possible. It's a really fun sport and both me and my dog enjoy it so we're probably going to keep on doing it for many more years


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO

Pax8 said:


> That's awesome! I've since found a much better trainer. I'm not really sure how competitive we're going to get, but I definitely want to go as far as possible. It's a really fun sport and both me and my dog enjoy it so we're probably going to keep on doing it for many more years


That's great! Mikko is my first agility dog, I started out "just for fun" as well, with no real intentions to compete. It's quite an addicting and fun sport so I am sure that you will become addicted as well


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## blackshep

I can see your trainers point to a certain extent, although I don't think it's right to put you at the back of the class, if you're paying the same money to be there as the rest of the people. 

I do flyball and while GSD's certainly can compete (along with dogs of all ages and sizes) and make decent times, they are not going to be all that competitive, compared to the BC's or flyball mixes at the upper levels of the sport.

That being said, if you and your dog are enjoying it, who is she to discourage you? Your dog doesn't care about being the world champion, it just wants to have fun with it's human!

I'd find another trainer and keep doing what you both enjoy.


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## Pax8

blackshep said:


> I can see your trainers point to a certain extent, although I don't think it's right to put you at the back of the class, if you're paying the same money to be there as the rest of the people.
> 
> I do flyball and while GSD's certainly can compete (along with dogs of all ages and sizes) and make decent times, they are not going to be all that competitive, compared to the BC's or flyball mixes at the upper levels of the sport.
> 
> That being said, if you and your dog are enjoying it, who is she to discourage you? Your dog doesn't care about being the world champion, it just wants to have fun with it's human!
> 
> I'd find another trainer and keep doing what you both enjoy.


Thanks, I've found a much better trainer  

That was the thing that got me - the basis of the class was that it was an agility foundations class for students who were experienced in training so ideally we could bypass most of the beginner "figuring out how positive reinforcement works" type things and get on to actually working concepts and obstacles. So I was confused when I was put at the back of the room and routinely skipped over for exercises or not given equipment to work with because there was only enough for the "serious" competitors. It was silly. Glad to be at a new place that is working very well for me!


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Thanks, I've found a much better trainer


:thumbup: Good for you!


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## carmspack

GSD can do Agility and do very well.
A female whose sire is my breeding competed in Canadian Regional and National Championships , handled by Paula Dumouchel-Clay.

You just go and have some fun with that dog.


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## holland

Glad you've found a trainer you enjoy training with Good for you!


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## blackshep

Pax8 said:


> Thanks, I've found a much better trainer
> 
> That was the thing that got me - the basis of the class was that it was an agility foundations class for students who were experienced in training so ideally we could bypass most of the beginner "figuring out how positive reinforcement works" type things and get on to actually working concepts and obstacles. So I was confused when I was put at the back of the room and routinely skipped over for exercises or not given equipment to work with because there was only enough for the "serious" competitors. It was silly. Glad to be at a new place that is working very well for me!


 I'm glad you found a new trainer. The main thing is to have fun with your dog. I did just a few obstacles with my dog, one day (I don't know all the names of the obstacles), she got to walk over the baby teeter-totter and oh boy, did she think that was great. She started crying and pulling toward it after her first time going over. lol

I had my scent detection class right afterward, so they left the obstacle there as something to hide scent on and any time my dog needed to cross the room, she was finding reasons to go over the teeter-totter. lol She's a funny girl.

Just have fun with your pup! There are people at flyball tournaments whose dogs are SO SLOW. Nobody cares, they are having fun. One guy's dog is literally going at a walk before he crosses the finish line, everyone cheers when he crosses the line.


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## wildo

I guess I'm late to this party! Didn't see the original thread. Thanks for the shout-out Lee! 

I'm really glad to see MRL post a video of the oh-so-amazing Tang!! 

I can tell you that in my very first agility class, I had an interaction like this:


> Instructor: "What are your goals with agility"
> Me: "Not sure. I'd like to try out the sport..." <points to Pimg> "I mean, I'm not sure how far we can go, but I'd like to try."
> Instructor: "Oh- you'll never put a championship title on a big dog like _that_!!!"


2 years later, Pimg earned her C-ATCH championship title and is competing at Nationals in two weeks. She regularly beats Border Collies and has a track record to prove it. She's had more 51 point Snooker runs than not. She's extremely consistent and doesn't knock bars. She's certainly getting older now and slowing down, but she was running just as fast as the BCs- yet keeping bars up. 

I can tell you that more than anything, that initial instructor you had will light a fire under your ass if you let it. While it sucks to be told that, it can be motivating. Go out there and prove to them that the GSD is very much a capable breed. But more importantly, have fun!


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