# Nature vs Nurture (What might have been?)



## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'll try to keep this as concise as possible; there really is a question I have for all of you here!  Thanks if you can bare with me.

I've had the (somewhat) unique experience recently of re-joining two littermates. (both males) They'd separated at ten weeks and came back together at ten months.

I've raised one of them (Bailey) from 11 weeks. The other guy, (Tucker) I never saw after he left at 10 weeks until he was 10 months old, when the owner just couldn't deal with him anymore and I took him in.

They are such different dogs with *completely* different upbringings.

*Bailey* (the dog I've raised,) had fear issues early on and required a *great* deal of socialization. He's come a long way. I now refer to him as more "cautious." He won't instantly run up to someone for a pat. He'll wag his tail from afar and eventually he may decide to approach. He's been camping, on road trips, to Petco, Petsmart, 3 classes, the city park, dog park, offleash hiking, drive-thru windows, drive thru car wash, etc and so on. I think he's had a pretty great life so far. Always slept inside, of course. Trained, loved. :wub: But still, cautious. I really believe without that work I likely would've had a real liability on my hands. He's intense and focused for such a young dog. Freaky almost. Maybe that's his GSD side. Whatever we're doing; fetch, frisbee, obedience, he's completely focused. He's not particularly affectionate, only in the mornings, but he is very velcro. My shadow at all times.

*Tucker* was put in a yard as a puppy and mostly left there. When he was little, the neighborhood kids played with him a lot. As he got bigger and wilder, the kids didn't want to be knocked down by him so he became more isolated. Never allowed in the house. When the former owner had a problem with Tucker going over a shorter portion of her fence, she put up a short section of invisible fencing, strapped on the collar and let him train himself by getting shocked. She fed him and attempted to contain him (prong left on for months,) but never did any training, nor gave him much of any attention. (by her admission )

Tucker is ridiculously friendly. A human being is just one more thing to love. He has no reaction and no fear. Only excitement and he can't wait to be petted, then he'll flop over for a tummy rub.

_~~~~Sooo, here's where I'm headed with all this..._

*What do you think would've been the result if it had been Bailey tied out in that yard instead of Tucker?* (I have an opinion on this but I'm going to keep quiet on that for now... so curious as to what the knowledgable people here say on this.)

_(Because it almost was. These pups are the result of my son's oops litter. I initally told my son I would NOT be taking a pup. Over time, I gave in. Couldn't help it. I told my son if I was going to take a pup, it was going to be "blue collar," which was Tucker. I didn't totally commit, so my son sold Tucker to the neighbor's daughter, who is the "owner" referred to above, who surrendered him to me when she didn't want to care for him anymore.)_

Hope that wasn't overly complicated.  The whole thing is such a long story. 

*I am thinking I am seeing genetics at work?*

Bailey had an ideal upbringing, but you can't overcome nerves.

Tucker had a rotten upbringing, but came thru without any fear issues.


Very interested in people's opinions on this, especially the bolded just above. Thanks!


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## PupperLove (Apr 10, 2010)

In my opinion nature has more of a hold than nurture. I think if Bailey would have been left out alone he would be a wreck right about now. Some dogs are just naturally friendly, and some are naturally nervous and IMO there's only so much you can do to try and supress genetics.

My dog would get fearful or nervous of things that he had already been acquainted with on several occassions and there wasn't much I could do about it. It wasn't what I consider 'normal' behavior by any means unless there really is/was something wrong. I will never agree with the statment "it's never the dog, it's the owner" (or situation). I think the dog has A LOT more to do with itself being agressive/nervy or very friendly than most people actually think. There are some extreme cases, but for the MOST part, I think it's usually in the dog's genes.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, it is genetics...who was dealt which ones. Look at dogs in shelters who've endured much and come out with a tail wag or a tail tuck. It is their being/soul that makes them either shut down or carry on.


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## Greydusk (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm in the "everything is genetic" camp. "Experiences" have the potential to "turn on" certain genes that may not have been active before...And every thought/action is the result of a cascade of chemical events.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm not to quick to believe the genetic reasoning in this situation, because the dogs are from the same litter, same mom and dad, so I would think--don't crucify me yet-that the offspring would be somewhat similar. I honestly believe that some of your best dogs are the pound puppies. They are sometimes abused and neglected, but still have lots of love to give. Dogs are generally meant to be companions, so by abusing them and neglecting them that is taken away from them. They in general are more likely to return the love they needed but never got I kinda think that Tucker has always been a good dog, looking for love and never got it, so now that he's getting it he wants more and more and will do whatever needed to stay at his required level of love he gets. Did Bailey have any other issues when he was younger that traumatized him or made him have fear issues? What are mom and dad like?


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

Genetics.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I'm not to quick to believe the genetic reasoning in this situation, because the dogs are from the same litter, same mom and dad, so I would think--don't crucify me yet-that the offspring would be somewhat similar.


I had 2 dogs from same litter, same upbringing, same genetics.... two completely different personalities. The only difference was we neutered one at 4 months the other didn't get neutered until he was 1 year. Shadow was confident, outgoing, friendly but protective. Buddy is loveable, 90+ lbs of lap dog and the biggest sissy on the planet and a true drama queen. Shadow was very much like his sire John Henry while Buddy is more like his Dam.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm in the camp that it's a combo of nature AND nurture. But nurture cannot completely overcome nature. Often with the 'right' nurturing, nature can be 'worked on' to a certain extent, but there will always be limitations. If that makes sense. 

All in all, I think the genetics form the foundation, and the work after forms the structure, so the stability in the end will always rely on the genetics. But you can have a pretty nice structure built on a pretty bad foundation.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Genetics.


Prime example? Michael Vick's ex fighting pit bulls. Many of them are now thriving as_ therapy_ dogs.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Genetics.
> 
> 
> Prime example? Michael Vick's ex fighting pit bulls. Many of them are now thriving as_ therapy_ dogs.



Okay bad example...genetics can't be used in this case..pit bulls usually love people they don't always like other dogs and therapy dogs generally are with people not other dogs. So while they were fighting dogs there wasn't any nurturing going on and now there is. If any of the dogs now get along and live peacefully in a home with other dogs, genetics would then play a role because all the nurturing in the world isn't going to make a pit bull that hates dogs like them.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Both - think of genetics as the raw material that environment works with. No silk purses out of a sow's ears, obviously; but without a good set of raw material - environment can probably slightly modify behavior to some degree but .........

We saw the same thing with our pup as we were able to see a litter sister and brother up until about 18 mo. VERY different - our pup VERY social and outgoing and even very pushy with people and other dogs. Extremely active. Brother VERY very calm and reserved - not bold at all. Sister was very very reserved and NOT good at all with strangers. For example!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Both - think of genetics as the raw material that environment works with. No silk purses out of a sow's ears, obviously; but without a good set of raw material - environment can probably slightly modify behavior to some degree but .........
> 
> We saw the same thing with our pup as we were able to see a litter sister and brother up until about 18 mo. VERY different - our pup VERY social and outgoing and even very pushy with people and other dogs. Extremely active. Brother VERY very calm and reserved - not bold at all. Sister was very very reserved and NOT good at all with strangers. For example!


I tend to agree with this...I saw this in my own dog and his sister that I ran into when they were about 9 months or so. They are goldens and she was very shy, didn't want me to pet her-hid behind her owners. My dog loves people and wants to be petted. She didn't have much socialization or schooling and my dog had tons.

But if this is the case the dogs that the OP has should be reversed. The one that grew up with the OP had a good environment and the other one that is more fun loving didn't have such a great environment..I would think that the one in the good environment would be the happier less shy dog??


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> But if this is the case the dogs that the OP has should be reversed. The one that grew up with the OP had a good environment and the other one that is more fun loving didn't have such a great environment..I would think that the one in the good environment would be the happier less shy dog??


Genetics.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I am one of 11 siblings, all from the same parents. Do we have the same genetics? Same gene pool perhaps, however, different characteristics become dominant and recessive in each individual. We are all quite different in appearance and 'temperament'. One thing to consider is that you said that Tucker got a lot of socialization with children at an early age. I think that has something to do with his current 'people skills'. The key age for socialization for puppies is from 6 - 16 weeks and if they don't get a lot of it then you are kind of out of luck. JMHO


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

llombardo said:


> Okay bad example...genetics can't be used in this case..pit bulls usually love people they don't always like other dogs and therapy dogs generally are with people not other dogs. So while they were fighting dogs there wasn't any nurturing going on and now there is. If any of the dogs now get along and live peacefully in a home with other dogs, genetics would then play a role because all the nurturing in the world isn't going to make a pit bull that hates dogs like them.


I see your point, you missed mine. Many of the dogs endured absolute **** at the hands of humans, yet that type of nurturing/environment had no bearing on their view and innate love for humans _because_ of their hardwired genetics predisposition to be friendly to people. Many dogs would not be able to take that sort of pressure and abuse and still come out as a stable dog with people.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

This is a very interesting thread, a question I have wondered extensively about. I don't have anything to add.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

PupperLove said:


> In my opinion nature has more of a hold than nurture.* I think if Bailey would have been left out alone he would be a wreck right about now*. Some dogs are just naturally friendly, and some are naturally nervous and IMO there's only so much you can do to try and supress genetics.


THIS is the thought that plagues me at times. I think you are right and he might've well been very difficult to rescue/rehabilitate, etc.



llombardo said:


> They in general are more likely to return the love they needed but never got *I kinda think that Tucker has always been a good dog, looking for love and never got it, so now that he's getting it he wants more and more and will do whatever needed to stay at his required level of love he gets*. Did Bailey have any other issues when he was younger that traumatized him or made him have fear issues? What are mom and dad like?


THIS is the other side of the coin I think about!

There was only one incident that freaked Bailey out when he was about 12 weeks. A little two year old just pestered the snot out of him and he tried and tried to get away from her. Long story, but eventually I did insist the little girl go away, but he'd already decided he didn't much like two year olds by then. That was the only negative human event. Bailey's parents are both very friendly dogs. The WGSD is more wary of people and takes her time with them, but the Husky mix is a goofball lover of a dog.



llombardo said:


> But if this is the case the dogs that the OP has should be reversed. The one that grew up with the OP had a good environment and the other one that is more fun loving didn't have such a great environment..I would think that the one in the good environment would be the happier less shy dog??


Yet another one of my thoughts.  So far everyone is hitting what's been rumbling around in my head.



PaddyD said:


> One thing to consider is that you said that Tucker got a lot of socialization with children at an early age. I think that has something to do with his current 'people skills'. The key age for socialization for puppies is from 6 - 16 weeks and if they don't get a lot of it then you are kind of out of luck. JMHO


Yes, so true and that is the one big advantage Tucker got that my dog did not. Bailey is now fine with my 2 year old nephew. He hasn't been around any other little ones.


Interesting responses! I wonder about this stuff all the time as I watch these dogs interact.


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

Any photos of this brother pup? Or does he look just like your boy?


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Pepper311 said:


> Any photos of this brother pup? Or does he look just like your boy?


No, they look very different! (Bailey to left.)











A better example of Bailey looking Mr Serious and Tucker looking Mr Goofy. 
(Why does his tongue always seem to hang out the opposite side of his droopy ear? I find that hilarious.)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Tucker looks part pit bull almost (I know there was one around). 
That could account for the human love-**** dog you see whereas Bailey took after GSD mom more and is more reserved?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Since this is a GSD forum and Michael Vick was brought up..I thought this was cute



http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Okay bad example...genetics can't be used in this case..pit bulls usually love people they don't always like other dogs and therapy dogs generally are with people not other dogs. So while they were fighting dogs there wasn't any nurturing going on and now there is. If any of the dogs now get along and live peacefully in a home with other dogs, genetics would then play a role because all the nurturing in the world isn't going to make a pit bull that hates dogs like them.


Except that therapy dogs generally need to be solid in all circumstances, including being out in public and possibly around other dogs. They don't have to be social butterflies but they do need to be able to contain themselves and not attack any dog in their sight. I can't imagine a very DA dog being placed in any sort of service role.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Tucker looks part pit bull almost (I know there was one around).
> That could account for the human love-**** dog you see whereas Bailey took after GSD mom more and is more reserved?


You're probably thinking of this pic, that I'd put on the forum when I was asking about what people thought Bailey's (and Tucker's) dad's breed mix is:




















And one of Bailey and Tucker's brothers:











But the pit in the pic was just visiting them that day, a friend's dog, it didn't live there. I don't even know the sex of the pit. The pit is most definitely not their dad.

The Husky mix in the pic is dad, but who knows what he is. He could have some diluted pit in him, who knows? I don't think he looks like he has much if any, but I have wondered, when looking at both these boys, if there wasn't some small bit of pit somewhere. I only say that because of facial features that slightly resemble it and it is more apparent in Tucker I think.



llombardo said:


> Since this is a GSD forum and Michael Vick was brought up..I thought this was cute
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gif


Haha that is cute.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Genetics.
> 
> 
> Prime example? Michael Vick's ex fighting pit bulls. Many of them are now thriving as_ therapy_ dogs.



I was just doing some reading and only 1 out of 50 dogs made it this far, the others are being worked with but have lots of fear issues. Has there been an update in the last 6 months that I'm not finding?


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

Tucker looks very "labby" to me which might partially explain the goofy friendly happy go lucky aspect of his temperament.

I fall right smack into the genetics camp. I think a bad owner can mostly ruin a good dog but with TLC that dog can bounce back But a bad dog, even with a good owner, is always a high maintenance dog. There are limits to what nurture can accomplish. 

This, imo, is why breeding should be a very serious undertaking. Especially with certain breeds.


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## Angelina03 (Jan 9, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Tucker looks part pit bull almost (I know there was one around).
> That could account for the human love-**** dog you see whereas Bailey took after GSD mom more and is more reserved?


This is the same thought that I had. 
I think it's just like people. Siblings from the same parents grow up together with (basically) the same upbringing and experiences. Yet, individual persons "experience" things differently; AND, are affected differently...Thus, siblings tend to have very different personalities. 

BTW- I love the pictures. I especially love how the little dog (not sure what it is, but it's super cute) has this expression like "hey, I'm part of this too, OK).


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

And humans have far more genetic diversity than dogs, specially dogs between a breed.


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I was just doing some reading and only 1 out of 50 dogs made it this far, the others are being worked with but have lots of fear issues. Has there been an update in the last 6 months that I'm not finding?


Am I understanding you correctly that there are 50 Michael Vick pit bulls and only one has been rehabilitated to the point of being a therapy dog?


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> No, they look very different! (Bailey to left.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love these photos. They look like brother for sure too cute. The dad looks like he could be my dogs dad but I live in CA too haha. 

Anyways. I often feel like me being such a crazy dog person might hurt my dog. I feel like I ove think things and worry over little stuff other owners Might not see a problem. With my dog now about to turn 1 year this month I see a change in her that worries me. She use to Be in love with everyone now they have to prove they are worthy of her love. She is not mean but standoffish till she feels people are good. This change in her love of everyone made me think what did I do wrong. Cookie is my first puppy. I have always taken on adult dogs. 

Cookie has a protective side. My dog is my 3 year old daughters sister basically. They are great together and cookie love kids. I babysit my friends 7 month old daughter some times. Cookie loves her babies. In fact the babies dad was over one day. Cookie dose not know him well. When the babies dad started putting the baby in the air and making funny sounds. Cookie went over all concerned. Not aggressive but alert like what are you doing. 

Anyways what I am trying to say is. I feel like being very into dogs makes me over think things and stress over little stuff and over react. Not over react in a bad way but I go on too do more reaseach and start to working on different training technics. I need to teach her right from wrong and also let her work thinks out by her self with in reason. Hope that makes sence or maybe I just sound crazy.

Your dogs brother had lots of chance to work things out for him self. It does not sound like he had a bad life. He got to play with kids, be out side, learn to entertain himself, was fed, and got to be a dog. He was never hit or abused? So really it was not that rough of a start. 

Anyways he is a very cute dog are you going to keep him? 

Let's get off the Mike vick thing and get back on topic.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Pepper311 said:


> Let's get off the Mike vick thing and get back on topic.



Actually the Mike Vick thing was brought up as an example of genetics by another poster(I originally thought it was a bad example) but I've changed my mind, it really is a good example of Nature vs Nurture if one thinks about it. Although, I still can't let go of the nurture part, I think that is a good part of it. Maybe nurture enhances nature? Maybe it shouldn't be versus and looked at equally. In 40 years I have never experienced a bad dog that couldn't be fixed, sounds crazy, but even if they had issues, they were worked through. I have had dogs that were crazy, fearful, shy, semi-aggressive and they all ended up in homes and turned out great with some nurturing. I have spent my life working with dogs-hundreds of them have crossed my path and I have put alot of time into finding homes--the right homes for all of them


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## Pepper311 (Sep 11, 2011)

llombardo said:


> Actually the Mike Vick thing was brought up as an example of genetics by another poster(I originally thought it was a bad example) but I've changed my mind, it really is a good example of Nature vs Nurture if one thinks about it. Although, I still can't let go of the nurture part, I think that is a good part of it. Maybe nurture enhances nature? Maybe it shouldn't be versus and looked at equally. In 40 years I have never experienced a bad dog that couldn't be fixed, sounds crazy, but even if they had issues, they were worked through. I have had dogs that were crazy, fearful, shy, semi-aggressive and they all ended up in homes and turned out great with some nurturing. I have spent my life working with dogs-hundreds of them have crossed my path and I have put alot of time into finding homes--the right homes for all of them


Bad owners make bad dogs. Dogs in general are good there are always some exceptions to the rule.

" Maybe nurture enhances nature?" yes I think nurture will enhances nature. I am a pit bull owner. If my dog had gone to the wrong person they could have really messed him up. He has that intensity about him that could be used in good or bad ways. I wish I had him when he was younger because he would have been amazing at search and rescue because he does not give up. Throw a ball and he will find it no matter what or how long it takes. 

I think we as humans can nurture too much sometimes.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Pepper311 said:


> ...Your dogs brother had lots of chance to work things out for him self. It does not sound like he had a bad life. He got to play with kids, be out side, learn to entertain himself, was fed, and got to be a dog. He was never hit or abused? So really it was not that rough of a start.
> 
> Anyways he is a very cute dog are you going to keep him?....


Tucker did have a rotten life. The kids were his only source of attention and that stopped when he got too big for them and he became a wild jumping man. Then, no more. He got to be outside because he wasn't allowed inside. Granted, this past winter was the mildest in years, but it is Iowa after all and it does get pretty cold. The wind blows here very hard almost all winter and he had no more shelter than a picnic table. He had one toy; a tennis ball. A prong collar was left on for months and discolored his neck. (There is a long thread about this, "Littermate Headed to Shelter.")

No, I probably will not keep him long term. I have three other dogs and I'm spread too thin. 

The Michael Vick thing... ugh. I didn't follow it closely. I think he's despicable and disgusting. I'd never trust any of those dogs to be around other dogs and never to be a service dog. Those dogs, sadly, were professionally trained to fight and nurture what is likely already an ingrained predisposition. A service dog, I would think, would need to be totally neutral to other dogs at all times. I think that's asking too much of those dogs after the training they received from that rotten excuse of a human being.

ANYWAY, back on topic . I agree with GrammaD in the Lab assessment. 

I am glad that it wasn't Bailey in that environment. I don't think Bailey would've come out of it and readjusted as well as Tucker has.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Pepper311 said:


> Bad owners make bad dogs. Dogs in general are good there are always some exceptions to the rule.
> 
> " Maybe nurture enhances nature?" yes I think nurture will enhances nature. I am a pit bull owner. If my dog had gone to the wrong person they could have really messed him up. He has that intensity about him that could be used in good or bad ways. I wish I had him when he was younger because he would have been amazing at search and rescue because* he does not give up. Throw a ball and he will find it no matter what or how long it takes. *
> 
> I think we as humans can nurture too much sometimes.


 
The oft cited "Gameness" of a Pittie in action! "Never Give Up!"


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> The oft cited "Gameness" of a Pittie in action! "Never Give Up!"


I would truly appreciate it if my thread did not become about pitbulls.

Thank you.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> I would truly appreciate it if *my thread* did not become about pitbulls.
> 
> Thank you.


 
Sorry about "YOUR THREAD".


I was merely trying to say something about another posted message. And i must apologize if that upset you and "your thread".

I really thought the poster was trying to say something interesting about the "nature vs nurture" thought about dogs behavior. 

Wasn't that what "your thread" was originally about?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

chelle said:


> Tucker did have a rotten life. The kids were his only source of attention and that stopped when he got too big for them and he became a wild jumping man. Then, no more. He got to be outside because he wasn't allowed inside. Granted, this past winter was the mildest in years, but it is Iowa after all and it does get pretty cold. The wind blows here very hard almost all winter and he had no more shelter than a picnic table. He had one toy; a tennis ball. A prong collar was left on for months and discolored his neck. (There is a long thread about this, "Littermate Headed to Shelter.")
> 
> No, I probably will not keep him long term. I have three other dogs and I'm spread too thin.
> 
> ...


*Can see here why you might have been upset about thinking that "your thread" was "taken over by pitbulls" - since you obviously don't like pit bulls! *

*BTW, I do believe that one of those rotten, trained killer dogs of Vicks became a therapy dog! Guess somebody did believe in them, huh?*


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Chelle

I think it's nurture in your dogs' cases. Tucker had vital socialization when he was a tiny puppy, and craved it when it was withdrawn. 
But Bailely wasn't so fortunate, and had an experience that scared him.

I think if Bailey had had the socialization that Tucker had, he'd be a different dog now. 

Sue


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Sorry about "YOUR THREAD".
> 
> I was merely trying to say something about another posted message. And i must apologize if that upset you and "your thread".
> 
> ...





codmaster said:


> *Can see here why you might have been upset about thinking that "your thread" was "taken over by pitbulls" - since you obviously don't like pit bulls! *
> 
> *BTW, I do believe that one of those rotten, trained killer dogs of Vicks became a therapy dog! Guess somebody did believe in them, huh?*


Codmaster, I very politely stated that I would appreciate it if the thread not turn into a discussion of pitbulls. 

Do not put words in my mouth. (That I don't like pitbulls.) I do not trust them. I have grown increasingly disdainful of some owners of these dogs and some of their enthusiasts. If you'd like to quote me, use that. 

And finally, do be sure to say things IN CONTEXT. (See blue above.) Had you actually quoted me PROPERLY, you'd see I called Vicks "a rotten excuse of a human being." I never referred to his dogs as rotten. 



jakes mom said:


> Chelle
> 
> I think it's nurture in your dogs' cases. Tucker had vital socialization when he was a tiny puppy, and craved it when it was withdrawn.
> But Bailely wasn't so fortunate, and had an experience that scared him.
> ...


Very possibly! Tucker got the socialization with kids that Bailey didn't, but Bailey got the socialization and exposure to the world out there that Tucker didn't. 

I'm not saying I'm unhappy with how Bailey is at all, either. I don't necessarily want him to immediately love up on strangers. I'm very proud of him 95% of the time. :laugh:

The boys are only 11 months, so time will still tell a lot of things. I haven't taken Tucker hardly anywhere because he is still on the wild side and so hard to control with the pulling. I need to just make the decision on which collar to try with him, other than a prong since he's got no sensitivity to a prong anymore, and just get to work on training.!

~~~

I didn't intend any offense to anyone on requesting not talking about pits... As you know, so many threads where the subject comes up tend to go off in an entirely different direction than was intended. Just didn't want to see that happen. Thankfully, everyone with only one exception, hasn't seemed to be offended by that. Thank you.!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

chelle said:


> The boys are only 11 months, so time will still tell a lot of things. I haven't taken Tucker hardly anywhere because he is still on the wild side and so hard to control with the pulling. I need to just make the decision on which collar to try with him, other than a prong since he's got no sensitivity to a prong anymore, and just get to work on training.!


Have you tried a harness? I got one for under $15.00 at the feed store and it works great with my puppy. He was very collar reactive and head reactive and this worked great with him. He is finally getting used to his collar but I put him in the harness when we go anywhere.


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## GrammaD (Jan 1, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Have you tried a harness? I got one for under $15.00 at the feed store and it works great with my puppy. He was very collar reactive and head reactive and this worked great with him. He is finally getting used to his collar but I put him in the harness when we go anywhere.


^^^ This. 

The Easy Walk harness:
Easy Walk Harness Product Description - Premier Pet

Or I like this product line quite a bit too:
LarzPetGear.com - Dog Leashes, Collars and Harnesses. - Z-Cradle Harness

I favor the use of a harness but there are those who dislike them. To make and easy transition to complete reliance upon a flat collar in the future, after I have a dog/puppy walking at heel and not reactive to the leash at all, I begin clipping the leash to both the harness and collar (the harness will need to be adjusted to give more "play" across the forechest) and eventually disconnect from the harness altogether before taking it off. For general pet use there is no need to discontinue the harness, but if a person plans to compete with the dog it has to be phased out.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> Have you tried a harness?





GrammaD said:


> ^^^ This.
> 
> The Easy Walk harness:
> Easy Walk Harness Product Description - Premier Pet
> ...


I haven't tried anything and I'm not automatically opposed to anything. When I've taken him to the vet and to my friend's house, I've used his prong. It barely keeps him from pulling me off my feet.

There are just so many no-pull options out there! I don't know where to even start. I wish there was a webpage out there that compared the pros, cons and price ranges of *all* the no pull types. 

I used to think Bailey was a puller.... til I met Tucker. Ha! Bailey is like a butterfly on a leash in comparison. 

Since most of the various types are $20-$30 each, I can just see the money flying out the window as I try different things. I need whatever is most successful on the hardest pulling of dogs!


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## jakes mom (Feb 29, 2012)

Chelle

I know we're somewhat off subject, but I 've just been reading the reviews on the Easy Walk Harness - very impressive

Easy Walk Harness Product Description - Premier Pet

Here's some videos that may be of help with teaching Tucker to walk on loose lead. 

Here's some videos that may be of help with teaching Tucker to walk on loose lead. You don't have to use the clicker if you don't want to - a treat on it's own should work just as well.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

I walk my husky on an easy walk harness. Love it!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I walk my husky on an easy walk harness. Love it!



This is what I use for my 80 lb golden retriever(recommended by the trainer) and its like night and day walking him with it.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Wow, well I'll say that's an impressive endorsement of the Easy Walk! I think you have me sold.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

It's really easy and simple to put on too. Chelle, take your dog into PETCO and you can try one on your dog and walk him around the store with it.


It doesn't completely stop my husky from pulling, but it greatly reduces the pulling. I don't like putting the prong on her since she is an escape artist and has bolted when the quick release has opened before.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My dog doesn't even attempt to pull. He just walks nicely next to me like he's the best loose leash walker out there......I can actually walk 2 of my dogs together if he has the harness on.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

MustLoveGSDs said:


> It's really easy and simple to put on too. Chelle, take your dog into PETCO and you can try one on your dog and walk him around the store with it.
> 
> It doesn't completely stop my husky from pulling, but it greatly reduces the pulling. I don't like putting the prong on her since she is an escape artist and has bolted when the quick release has opened before.


The prong means virtually nothing to this guy, since he was tied out on the thing for so long. He doesn't seem to feel it at all.



llombardo said:


> My dog doesn't even attempt to pull. He just walks nicely next to me like he's the best loose leash walker out there......I can actually walk 2 of my dogs together if he has the harness on.


I'm not quite brave enough to take Tucker into Petco. 

BUT I do have $15 in Petco Bucks so I'm going to get one of those collars and see how it goes. Now I need to figure out sizing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

If it helps I got the large/gray and black one and that fits my 80 pound Golden


It has the description and on the left there is sizing instructions...


http://www.premier.com/View.aspx?page=dogs/products/collars/easywalk/description


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

llombardo said:


> If it helps I got the large/gray and black one and that fits my 80 pound Golden


mmmm, Tuckers is only 63'ish lbs... wonder if we should go down a size?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

chelle said:


> mmmm, Tuckers is only 63'ish lbs... wonder if we should go down a size?


I got this when my dog was still a puppy, its quite adjustable. I have had the same one for a year and a half.


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