# Protection



## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

What is the general consensus here...will a SchH trained dog bite a person if they don't have the sleeve on. I am not talking on the field but in a situation where they feel threatened or the family is threatened. 

We went to a SchH club this weekend and 2 of us had to stand on either side of the blind, close to the helper because he is getting a little distracted and forgetting to look behind each blind. Anyway, the dog did not once even look in our direction. Got me thinking...is a sport dog useless when it comes to PP? 

I've heard stories of the police once buying a SchH dog but when told to go after the crook, the dog just ran along side him and didn't actually bite because there wasn't a arm. 

Thoughts?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Alot will depend on the dog but for the most part - SchH dogs are trained to ONLY bite the sleeve.

That doesn't mean they can't be trained for personal protection.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Depends on the dog and the training.

A dog with SchH training alone isn't going to necessarily bite for real, no. It may, or may not, but if it does it's due more to the dog's inherent temperament rather than it's training.

SchH and like sports are designed in order to test if the dog has the correct traits to be trained as a protection or police dog. But they are NOT designed to provide that training. To do K9 or PPD work, additional training would be required. However, if the dog's SchH foundation is solid and it has the correct temperament for this sort of work, it wouldn't take much in the way of additional training to get the dog to do K9 or PPD.



> Originally Posted By: RavenSophi
> 
> We went to a SchH club this weekend and 2 of us had to stand on either side of the blind, close to the helper because he is getting a little distracted and forgetting to look behind each blind. Anyway, the dog did not once even look in our direction. Got me thinking...is a sport dog useless when it comes to PP?


Yes, it is "usless" in terms of creating a PPD. It can be very useFULL for identifying a dog suitable for such work, and laying a correct training foundation to be built upon. But additional would be needed to make it a PPD.

Also, the scenario you are describing means absolutely nothing with regard to assessing a dog's suitability to be a PPD.

First, there was a person wearing equipment, so that person alone is going to be the dog's target. Such is how the dog is taught. Just because a dog will bite the guy wearing the sleeve when there is a guy wearing a sleeve does not mean that he will not bite someone else not wearing a sleeve. Big difference there.

Second, you just standing around presents absolutely no reason for the dog to consider you any sort of threat or challenge. A dog who would target someone just standing there, helper nearby or not, is a scary, unstable dog.



> Originally Posted By: RavenSophi
> I've heard stories of the police once buying a SchH dog but when told to go after the crook, the dog just ran along side him and didn't actually bite because there wasn't a arm.
> Thoughts?


Well, if those police didn't do any additional training with the dog and just put a SchH trained dog on the street, they obviously don't know squat about protection training of any type and made a really stupid mistake that anyone who does know about protection training would have seen coming a mile away. Train the dog for the scenarios he's going to encounter on the street and train him it's ok to bite without equipment, and they'll get the results they want.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Most SchH dogs are very "sleeve-safe", in that they will only engage the helper, and only bite the sleeve. Dogs that will bite "for real" are refered to as being civil. They would not have asked you to stand there if there was any risk to you or the other people. 

At our club, the helper sometimes comes off the field and will sit among the rest of us and the dog will come looking for him and do his hold and bark. We know the dogs, and we know it is okay. They know they have a job to do, and that job is to get the sleeve, so they don't pay much attention to anything else. 

It takes a LOT to get a dog to engage a person for real, and to stay for the fight. I mean, look at it from the dog's point of view, wouldn't you hesitate to engage a person three or four times taller than you with long tentacle who can strike out at you without you even having to be close? 

That is why even sport dogs are from the time they are puppies encouraged to bite and tug, and are never corrected for puppy nipping or biting or jumping on people - only redirected. 

Police dog training and PPD training goes to a higher level, past SchH training. Not all SchH dogs would make it as a police dog, actually, few would, but a lot of police departments are not dog trainers, breeders, behaviourists, and don't understand the distinctions between a sport dog, and a real police dog. SchH can be a good foundation for a police dog, and SchH training will allow a trainer to be able to identify those dogs that would make good police dogs and thus go further with their training, but by itself, Schutzhund training does not a civil dog make.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I am very new to this but I think there are two different things that can happen: 1) a SchH dog in the context of SchH that WILL bite a helper without a sleeve or, 2) a dog that is trained in police work and/or personal protection. As for #1, yes I have seen such a dog. One dog at our club, very serious drivey dog. She bit the sleeve, helper slipped the sleeve for her to carry it, and before the handler had full control of the line the dog spit the sleeve and turned on the helper. Luckily the helper still had his stick in hand and held it horizontal so the dog bit on the stick instead of his arm or belly. For #2 I personally think police dog and PPD work is in a different category than SchH. Not that it's any more or less difficult, but the training is different and the purpose is different. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I do not expect my SchH dog to "protect" me and that is not my intention for doing SchH. He is less than a year old, still training all in prey drive. My neighbors called him "vicious" so to show them how he trains I tied him to the tree, tossed a tug toy just out of his reach, and when he was barking and lunging for it like a cazy dog I showed them how I can reach over the dog's head, stroke and pat his sides, and he is barking at the object, not at me. I know eventually that may change, but right now that is where he is at in training.

I've seen some PPDs that I don't think would even make great SchH dogs. I've seen some kind of shy away or back off when the decoy is yelling and waving his stick, then the dog goes in and kind of nips at the ankle or whatever. So on some level I think that sometimes SchH can put a lot of pressure on the dog and is a true test of courage, even if they bite the same sleeve every time. They get hit with a stick and driven, to me that's as telling as the bite.


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## RavenSophi (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks for all the answers. It makes sense to me that you will have to do extra training to get the dog to bite without the sleeve. Doesn't look like the police know what they're doing, but that wouldn't be a first. 



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild...train him it's ok to bite without equipment, and they'll get the results they want.


How would you do that? Just interested because doesn't a dog even while doing PPD work learn with a sleeve? I can't imagine a dog transitioning from a sleeve to a fleshy arm.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: RavenSophi
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, even with K9s and PPDs the majority of the work, especially the foundation work, is done with a sleeve.

Then when the dog is ready it moves from a sleeve to a bitesuit and then to a hidden sleeve worn under clothing. Muzzle work is often introduced later too.

Dogs are never taught to bite fleshy arms since there is simply absolutely no way to safely teach that to a dog. Whomever is doing the helperwork must be protected. But they are taught to bite what appears to be a person wearing regular clothing. And can be tested on a no equipment/clothing helper to gauge their willingness, but for safety would need to be restrained and not allowed to actually make contact. Once they get to that point, they tend to look at the overall human as a target and aren't going to be very discriminating about what they bite. And since most "bad guys" aren't running around buck naked, if the dog only grabs a clothed body part and avoids a bare one, it doesn't much matter.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I have seen dogs that are very equipment driven. As someone else said "sleeve safe". My pit bull is this way, slip the sleeve and she wants nothing to do with the person anymore as he doesn't have the sleeve. 

We have a dog in the club that is trained in PP as well as Schutzhund. He is having some blind issues right now and thus there are a few of us standing around the blind while he is being worked there. WE do not worry about him coming off the sleeve and at one of us as he is focused on his task at hand. 

My personal dog is a great dog and I'm training him in PP as well as Schutzhund. We(Myself and the TD and decoys) are making sure that he doesn't become completely equipment fixated. BUT when on the field training for Schutzhund he is focused on the sleeve and nothing else! 

Courtney


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Not many Sch clubs know how to train a serious dog these days. Many will say the dog is "TOO SERIOUS" for schutzhund. What they really mean is that the dog is TOO SERIOUS for them. It's a tougher dog to train than a total prey dog. 

Find a club with an experienced helper that knows how to bring out both sides of your dog. See if they ever do any hidden sleeve or suit work. Many PREY clubs teach protection is just a fun game. Find a club that makes it more real for the dog. A helper that shows the dog that the only way to make the preasure go away is to fight him harder. The saying at our club is "we have protection dogs that can do SCH". Then again our TD is the guy everyone in MICH. and OH seems to come to when they have bite work problems with their dogs. 

No sleeves are slipped until the handler has a good hold on the line


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Um, there are some dogs that are too serious for schutzhund that can't be further titled or titled at all. usually this seriousness is due to nerves, but sometimes to a very hard dog. Has nothing to do with being too serious for the handler. A dog that consistently lets go in order to go after the face or the crotch is NOT a sport dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote: Not many Sch clubs know how to train a serious dog these days. Many will say the dog is "TOO SERIOUS" for schutzhund. What they really mean is that the dog is TOO SERIOUS for them. It's a tougher dog to train than a total prey dog.
> 
> Find a club with an experienced helper that knows how to bring out both sides of your dog.


I agree with this point made by R. Matox and a some of the other stuff he says in the rest of his post. I have seen some VERY serious dogs trained in SchH. Dogs that were also street dogs (police K-9's) or PPD. These dogs were trained to channel the fight into the sleeve. Dogs that spit out the sleeve to bite the crotch or face are not doing that because they are too serious. They are doing that because of bad training OR because they are nervy. The former just need a better handler/heper. The latter, IMO, shouldn't be trained in bitework, period.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_Wusually this seriousness is due to nerves, but sometimes to a very hard dog. A dog that consistently lets go in order to go after the face or the crotch is NOT a sport dog.


um, that's why I said....


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have trained exactly one dog in SchH where I had somewhat of a doubt about that dog's desire to protect me.
The dogs who do not have that genetic make up are really not as enjoyable to train....for me anyway. Not to mention, A GSD is supposed to protect and to have the "inherent temperament " to do so. If the dog doesn't, I wonder how SchH is identifying anything that has to do with protection ability and or traits associated with being a German Shepherd Dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)




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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

"Um, there are some dogs that are too serious for schutzhund that can't be further titled or titled at all. usually this seriousness is due to nerves"

I guess the ? is, what do you call a serious dog? If it's a nerve issue then it's not a serious dog. We're talking true, solid nerved, serious dogs. I've never known of a dog too serious for SCH or being titled further. You couldn't get a more serious dog than Stormfront's Brawnson, Sch titled and a K9 with around 100 street bites. 

You state "A dog that consistently lets go in order to go after the face or the crotch is NOT a sport dog. "

I agree. Although most serious dogs won't let go. The harder the helper/bad guy fights the more preasure the serious dog put into the bite he has. Here's a link to the type of dog I like. What I call a SERIOUS dog that can do SCH. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjFQ0UbH224 

If the dog is "TOO SERIOUS for SCH", then it's not the dog it's the handler's inability to train the dog. You have to be able to control your dog in every situation. The tougher, the more serious the dog the more control you'll need. If the dog is in a situation where is agression level is at 10 (on a 1-10 scale) then you need to be able to shut him down completely on comand. If you can't get that control then the dog is too serious for you. Not Schutzhund.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I had a pike son years ago. He was too serious for me and the other 3 people after me who owned him. The dog would not shut down. You could put the sleeve on top of a chain link fence and leave it there. The dog would NEVER settle down. Literally, an hour later he would still be going ballistic. The dog also would bite so hard he'd leave bruises thru the sleeve for weeks on the poor decoys. Slippery floors, dark spaces, no problems. So I guess me, and his last 3 owners just don't know how to work dogs. He's now no longer even being worked as no one could get him under control. Very hard dog who was only in it for what he could get for himself. He could care less about working for a person. I would've loved to have gotten him as a pup instead of a mature male.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angela_WI had a pike son years ago. He was too serious for me and the other 3 people after me who owned him. The dog would not shut down. You could put the sleeve on top of a chain link fence and leave it there. The dog would NEVER settle down. Literally, an hour later he would still be going ballistic. The dog also would bite so hard he'd leave bruises thru the sleeve for weeks on the poor decoys. Slippery floors, dark spaces, no problems. So I guess me, and his last 3 owners just don't know how to work dogs. He's now no longer even being worked as no one could get him under control. Very hard dog who was only in it for what he could get for himself. He could care less about working for a person. I would've loved to have gotten him as a pup instead of a mature male.


Sounds like another great dog someone screwed up. 
Ive seen a couple of nice dogs dogs people tried using heavy compliance training training on. I watched this one stupid ass bang and bang on a long line and pinch trying to out his dog at a Ivan seminar it appeared he viewed the dog as being some bad ass monster. Ivan told him you cant fix stupid what am I supposed to do. If you want to train like this I would go get a electric sleeve.
Not comparing your dog to this guy's dog however troubled dogs usually = stupid training.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: R. Mattox"Um, there are some dogs that are too serious for schutzhund that can't be further titled or titled at all. usually this seriousness is due to nerves"
> 
> I guess the ? is, what do you call a serious dog? If it's a nerve issue then it's not a serious dog. We're talking true, solid nerved, serious dogs. I've never known of a dog too serious for SCH or being titled further. You couldn't get a more serious dog than Stormfront's Brawnson, Sch titled and a K9 with around 100 street bites.
> 
> ...


This video has been on my favorites for some time now. What a pleasure it is to watch Flinks open him up and display what a beast this old dog this is. 
I bet that old boy dreamed all night thinking about his day back in the game.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Bravo R. Mattox, for giving people an example of what a "hard" dog really is!!!! He's not nervy in the least, or hectic, or sharp, just plain "confident" of his ability to handle "any" situation that comes his way. He sent the dog through a group of people safely. THIS is what you should be striving for as a German Shepherd breeder.
One other thing....this dog has evidently been trained in more venues than just Sch. This is one of the downfalls of the Sch movement of today...the dog is one demesionable(sp) because Sch people tend to only let their dogs train in Sch and mostly prey. Building work, muzzlework, obstacle work, all brings character to the dog and exposes the prey monsters for whether they are truly breed worthy. Experienced people on this list can look at that dog and tell he's been trained in many venues...JMO


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

Joker was right when he said "Sounds like another great dog someone screwed up." 

What kind of training is it to leave a sleeve on a fence for the dog to bark at for an hour? Very counter-productive. 

Angela, I'm not saying you or these 3 others don't know how to train dogs. Maybe not just this one, or type. You got him as a mature male. So maybe you were dealing with training problems from the previous owner. This just all goes back to being able to train a serious dog. Having one with issues makes it twice as hard. 

As for leaving bruises on the "poor decoys". I love that. If you put on the sleeve or suit you know your going to run into that from time to time. Those are the dogs the helpers are always talking about, giving them the helpers choice award. 

You stated: "Very hard dog who was only in it for what he could get for himself."

Every dog is in it only for what he can get for himself. Wether it be the bite and fight. Or if it's the satisfaction of working well for his owner. It's all about what they can get. It's up to us as trainers/handlers to bring it out and channel it.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

True. Hardy is a hard male, dominant. But at least he's willing to work as a partner with me. The first dog I had taught me how to work with the dog I have now. First dog was also handler aggressive so intro 101 on that subject, lol. Hardy has always been a give and take relationship which is fine with me.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

"One other thing....this dog has evidently been trained in more venues than just Sch."

Yes he has been. He was a K9 in Australia and has offspring that are on the job there as well. As a matter of fact the seminar with Bernard was a police dog seminar, not a schutzhund seminar.


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

"Hardy is a hard male, dominant. But at least he's willing to work as a partner with me."

Always the best possible situation. makes things a lot easier.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As a person who has trained many dogs for policework and was a military trainer, it was obvious to me that this dog has experienced different training modules. A very very nice dog with strength and virility at 11 years of age...by any chance do you know the bloodlines on this dog?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

BTW, I had a male last year that I bred and went to the police academy at 22 months with a green handler. I had raised and trained the dog to that time. Went he went into the academy on the second day the instructor took the handler aside and told him that dog was so advanced for the academy that the handler had to catch up. The dog graduated at top of his class and hit the streets. About 2 months ago the handler called me and asked if he could bring the dog over to train because sometimes with the dept. handlers working him, he went through the motions in his opinion. I asked him if these individuals were trainers and he replied "no" they are other handlers working him. I told him to stop working him on the unknowledgable and only work him on trainers or stop by and we would work him. He then questioned what to expect when he encountered a real situation on the streets. I assured him the dog would meet the challenge because the dog was an awesome dog and the dog would respond to the body language and excitement that would go down the leash in a real situation, but stop the "phoney" work. Wellll...about two weeks ago the handler called me and said Mr. Anderson I had to use my dog last night and he was AWESOME!.....Everything you said about his level of work came to pass and he had an intensity like he had in the academy. He took down a 240 lb man that had thrown two other officers off of him and was high on PCP. Anyway, I told him that bad training was worse than no training for a dog in his line of work and never never doubt your dog unless there is a physical reason.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

I thought I'd say Tai- Pan Falko is by

Sire: Yoschy v.d Dollenwiese

Dam : Zilke v Tiekerhook (Asko Joufne Keyleff X Steffi Tiekerhook )


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

So a Yoschy son, with Tiekerhook and Korbelbach coming through the female line, and line-bred on Uwe Kirschental........ sounds like a recipe for success to my novice self


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