# Linebreeding--Common Ancestry



## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

I do not understand this at all... is this a good thing? is this a bad thing? The pedigree database shows none in 5 generations for either of my girls... so what does this indicate if anything? Please educate me a bit on this if you would...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I have heard when line breeding produces good results...they call it "line breeding" when it produces crappy dogs they call it incest.

SuperG


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I have heard when line breeding produces good results...they call it "line breeding" when it produces crappy dogs they call it incest.
> 
> SuperG


See... this is how my mind works...


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Line breeding is neither good or bad. Common ancestry can help solidify certain traits, good and bad. 

Inbreeding is a bit different. Because of the lack of any genetic diversity traits can be super exaggerated. Inbreeding would be mother/son or brother/sister.


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## My2shepherds (Jun 10, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Line breeding is neither good or bad. Common ancestry can help solidify certain traits, good and bad.
> 
> Inbreeding is a bit different. Because of the lack of any genetic diversity traits can be super exaggerated. Inbreeding would be mother/son or brother/sister.


So how is line breeding defined? aunts, uncles, cousins?? (so to speak) how far does it actually tree off before it is line breeding and not in-breeding?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Part of decision to purchase my new pup involved the line breeding coming from the Sire. I like it tight.

https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1842545-otis-vom-ron 

I like the genetics concentrated and prepotent.


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## Mister C (Jan 14, 2014)

I am certainly no expert in the subject but I found this article interesting and relevant.

A beginners guide to inbreeding and line breeding | David Cavill's Weblog


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You have your pup, now think of his parents as the first generation so the sire and the dam are a 1 and a 1. 

The second generation would be the sire and dam of each of the parents, or the pup's grandparents, so give them a 2. 

And the third generation would be the pup's great grandparents. They would be 3s. 

In Germany, it is permissible to breed 3-2, which you would see as the great grandfather of the dam being the grand father of the sire. 

Because you need a male and a female, it is impossible to have a 1-1 breeding. Mother-son or father-daughter would be 2-1. Some breeders will do this to see what recessives their critters carry, with fewer genes out there to provide diversity in the pups, the likelihood of recessives coming forward is much higher than in an ordinary litter without close in-breeding.

Sister-brother breeding would be 2-2 on both the grand-sire and the grand-dam, half-sibling would be 2-2 on either the grand-sire or grand-dam. 

It is pretty easy to see when people are breeding closely what effect it might have on your pup, but it is just important to look at how many times a dog shows up behind the first couple of generations. For example, you might not have any dogs that repeat in the first three, and then in fourth you have a dog several time, and that same dog shows up in the fifth, sixth, and seventh generation.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Mother-son or father-daughter would be 2-1. Some breeders will do this to see what recessives their critters carry, with fewer genes out there to provide diversity in the pups, the likelihood of recessives coming forward is much higher than in an ordinary litter without close in-breeding.


*raises hand*

I have a stupid question. What happens to those puppies? I can imagine lots of people would probably shy away from that litter (whether out of ignorance if it isn't such a bad thing, or well-founded caution if it is). And if the pups don't turn out well, that doesn't seem to set them up for happy lives.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

A responsible breeder culls substandard stock. If your going tight, you have to cull. If you dont have the stomach for it do everyone a favor and stop breeding. 
Temperment / health issues = cull

Ofcourse if that methodology had been followed certain subsets of GSD would not exist.

Breeders getting into the game without the guts to deal with the unpleasentness associated with breeding are responsible for many of the living culls we see on a daily basis.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Culling products of close in-breeding that carry a problem is a possibility. The thing is, people are not necessarily looking for whether the dog carries hip or elbow dysplasia, EPI, DM, etc. -- that would be a bad way to figure that out anyway. 

What they are trying to determine is whether their dog carries the coat factor or other things that really do not limit the ability for the pup to be a pet. Of course people _should_ know sire and dam inside out and backwards and everything behind them in order to breed closely. Usually the breeders who do this are actually those who are competing and their culls can be actually sold on a limited registration/spay neuter contract, and live just fine in a pet home. 

Close line breeding/in-breeding does not cause problems. It is just that the problems that are there are present in the lines will be more likely to show up. 

Also, if you have a pup clearly deformed at birth you can cull. If you are waiting 6-12 months to check for structural issues, culling becomes more difficult. And other stuff that has a genetic component, like EPI, DM, MegE is not necessarily going to show up right away. If it did the heart ache would be contained at the breeders.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Culling products of close in-breeding that carry a problem is a possibility. The thing is, people are not necessarily looking for whether the dog carries hip or elbow dysplasia, EPI, DM, etc. -- that would be a bad way to figure that out anyway.
> 
> What they are trying to determine is whether their dog carries the coat factor or other things that really do not limit the ability for the pup to be a pet. Of course people _should_ know sire and dam inside out and backwards and everything behind them in order to breed closely. Usually the breeders who do this are actually those who are competing and their culls can be actually sold on a limited registration/spay neuter contract, and live just fine in a pet home.
> 
> ...


Got it. That makes sense.


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