# For those whose dog has bitten - Where?



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

Duke is generally great with everybody including other dogs. But when he does not like someone, he really scares us. Whether this is aggression or fear, it does not matter, we want it to stop.

Yesterday a worker (Harry) came by to check on my pool and inquire about when I want to close it. Duke sees this guy twice a year and just hates him. I meet him in the driveway and we walk to the pool together. Duke circles, barks uncontrollably, hair standing straight up on back of neck, and he rushes Harry. Harry is a dog person and tries everything to get Duke to like him. He probably should ignore Duke, but instead he tries to talk nicely and pat him.

Yesterday he lunged at Harry's face/neck with a little bite jaw snap while Harry was walking out of the yard with be. Did not make contact, it was similar to when he jumps up to catch a frisbee. Freaked Harry out.

I surely will have Duke in the house next time. 

What do you make of this behavior given your experience with biting, aggression, fear?


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Why is Duke allowed near this guy? Was he on leash? Harry should do what you tell him to around Duke and should not be allowed to do whatever he wants. 

If this is the only person he reacts to like this, there is probably a reason and I would just keep him away the twice a year Harry comes over. Or stop having Harry come over.

The best I would hope for is having Duke ignore him. This is going to take leadership from you and not allowing Duke to make his own decisions.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I treat every visitor to my house the same. I am proactive and assume that my dog will bite them. He has never bitten anyone. But first, I don't intend on taking the chance, and second, I don't want anyone to think he won't bite. 

The moment there is a reaction with your dog, you should move to control it. Even if it's just the first seconds of focus - you should control your dog.


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

I saw Harry pull in the driveway and went out the front door. The dogs (other is golden doodle who knows how to open the back slider) went out the back door and Duke just went crazy when he saw Harry who shows no fear to Duke and kind of over does it with regard to being cool about it.

I hear both of you loud and clear. Duke will be inside. Our yard is fenced in electronically and it was a beautiful day yesterday, so the dogs are often out a lot. They could have been out when Harry pulled in.

Duke lets us know when he does not like someone, but it is few and far between. But he really hates Harry for some reason.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

How old is Duke? There could be many reasons why he doesn't like your pool guy. Some things are hard to figure out. 

You should be keenly aware of Duke's actions when it comes to all of your visitors. If Duke feels he needs to take charge when it comes to Harry, it could be very likely that he'll attempt the same actions with other visitors as well.


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks Lilie. Duke is 2.5 years old. We had him trained up until he was 1 and my trainer also noticed this behavior (he did not like him either) and told us we better watch it carefully. So we have for the most part.

Not that I want to find out, but I was wondering if he would actually bite and if the lunging at Harry's head was an indicator.

I know these sound like stupid questions and the obvious is to remove him and control him. Consider that done.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If a dog makes an attempt to bite, a dog will bite. It's up to you to make sure he doesn't have the opportunity to take that next step.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

That sounds like fear aggression IMHO. If it were me, I would try to introduce Harry to Duke slowly and carefully, maybe with treats. But that's just me and I don't always take
the safest course of action. The reason I would do it is so that it doesn't become a more general problem when workmen come to the house.
But I have to admit none of my dogs ever had this problem.


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

Yeah, I am trying to figure out the difference between fear aggression and regular aggression. I would think most all aggression starts with fear. When I say he does not like Harry, it is most likely because he "fears" something about Harry, wants to protect the property, us, himself, etc. I guess we humans run from something out of fear, not attack it. It's semantics to me.

He behaves similarly with other workers or delivery men who enter the property. I wish I could get him assimilated to the situation and not the person. It's impossible to introduce Duke to every worker or delivery person who enters the property.

(edit - I haven't mentioned how goofy, lovable, adorable and naive Duke is. He is not a mean dog)


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Duke-2009 said:


> Yeah, I am trying to figure out the difference between fear aggression and regular aggression. I would think most all aggression starts with fear. When I say he does not like Harry, it is most likely because he "fears" something about Harry, wants to protect the property, us, himself, etc. I guess we humans run from something out of fear, not attack it. It's semantics to me.
> 
> He behaves similarly with other workers or delivery men who enter the property. I wish I could get him assimilated to the situation and not the person. It's impossible to introduce Duke to every worker or delivery person who enters the property.
> 
> (edit - I haven't mentioned how goofy, lovable, adorable and naive Duke is. He is not a mean dog)


Well, he is aggressive to people who come to your home. I don't know the cause but you need to control it. A worker is invited to your house they have the same right to safetu as someone in public would have. You are liable if he bites and his behavior indicates he probably will at some point.
If you can't fix his behavior he will have to be contained when people come over. if he continues it will not just be workers but could be friends or family he decides he doesn't like.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

That's fear aggression. There's no real threat, so he's acting out of fear. When he acts this way... he's not protecting you, he's protecting himself.

If he acts this way around one person, I'm pretty sure he's going to do this again to someone else. You need to keep him contained in these type of situation because if you don't someone eventually will get bit and you will get sued. 

Since you have an electric fence... you might want to think of putting a "Beware of Dogs" type sign. Just as a warning.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

My dog is aloof. He isn't goofy or loveable or silly - to anyone else but us. He is/was well socialized (he is two). 

We live out in the country, but we have neighbor's who stop by all the time (we hang out at night on the porch). My boy knows when someone drives up the drive - or walks down the drive he is to come directly to me. That is what we've done since he was a puppy (didn't want him to get run over etc.) Because we've always done this, if suddenly he comes directly to me while watching the road - I know we have company. 

He does meet and greet the company. However, I always watch him. He has reacted once to a nieghbor who was walking behind hubby with a sledge hammer, swung the hammer to his shoulder and my boy turned and 'pushed' him in the crotch. Should never have happened. Thank goodness it wasn't a bite.


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> That's fear aggression. There's no real threat, so he's acting out of fear. When he acts this way... he's not protecting you, he's protecting himself.


Still trying to figure out the difference. So when I was young, lots of people had GSD's. They were either behind a stockade fence in the backyard or locked in the garage. I used to walk to school and I was a paper boy. Let me tell you, when those dogs got loose they would chase you and bite you. They certainly did not fear me or all the other people they used to bite. This was just pure aggression.


----------



## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Duke, did you see this thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-topics/156050-protective-fearful.html 

It's a pretty good discussion on being protective vs fearful that helps define fear aggression. Nothing you have said screams fear to me but I don't see it as protective either. I think it's too hard for us to label it with out seeing body language when it's going on.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Duke-2009 said:


> Still trying to figure out the difference. So when I was young, lots of people had GSD's. They were either behind a stockade fence in the backyard or locked in the garage. I used to walk to school and I was a paper boy. Let me tell you, when those dogs got loose they would chase you and bite you. They certainly did not fear me or all the other people they used to bite. This was just pure aggression.


I won't repeat what I posted before but it doesn't matter what kind of aggression it is in terms of protecting yourself (liability) and those who come to your home. It might matter in terms of modifying behavior but you need to deal with an aggressive dog or be prepared for what will surely come.


----------



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

on the other hand, if "Harry" is the only person Duke reacts this way to, I'd also beware of Harry.

No kidding, just a thought.


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks for all the feedback. I agree that it does not matter what kind of aggression just that it has to stop or be avoided. I am pretty scared he will bite someone. I have been researching this here and other sites and the general comment on the behavior he displays is that he will bite someday when he gets like this. It is not often but often enough. Going back to the trainer to at least get Duke to listen to me. He did not with Harry.


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> Duke, did you see this thread? http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/weekly-discussion-topics/156050-protective-fearful.html
> 
> It's a pretty good discussion on being protective vs fearful that helps define fear aggression. Nothing you have said screams fear to me but I don't see it as protective either. I think it's too hard for us to label it with out seeing body language when it's going on.


Thank you, very helpful. Also makes me realize this is a very debatable topic with many different views. I had no idea. I also see that some people don't want to have the word "fear" associated with their dog. Duke's behavior is very much like a lot of those dogs in that thread. No bravado here I can assure you. I have no doubt Duke would protect against a real threat. I have no doubt he is confident. However, he does not run away when he senses fear. He moves towards it. After reading about the uncrontrolable barking and such and the fact that he is well socialized and not trained for protection, I would most of the cases I have read would fall under the "fear" description of aggression. But I do think that fear has something to do with protection. I can't get into a dogs head and I am no expert, but it just makes sense to me that fear in any animal including humans results in protection if there is no other means of escape. All this said, I wish Duke would just keep distance and bark, this would make sense to me if he was scared.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

just food for thought, even though a dog might be reacting out of fear they can certainly move forwrd towards the threat rather than retreat from it, so don't let that fool you..........the mentality would be "get the threat before it gets me" so, Fearful doesn't have to mean run and hide.........and in alot of cases forward fearful aggression is displayed.........


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

totally agree Debbie.

Here is another good conversation on the topic:

Fear aggression symptoms - page 1 - German Shepherd Dog


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I am working with a less than confident GSD currently. There are some persons who set her off. She hackles and barks big and does not initially back up. If pressed, she might back or she might come forward with aggression. The key is to have her taking the cues from myself. She does not get to start this behavior and then carry it out to its end with the person. I take over confidently, put her under obedience and run the interaction myself. The dog has to learn to defer to my request for a heel and down. She stops her hackling and barking then. The obedience gives her some confidence as she knows what to do then. It also helps her in that I am obviously taking charge of the situation. Her owner always tells anyone coming to the house to work or visit, to wait until she puts the dog up.


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Great Samba! and thats exactly what a dog like that needs, a confident leader to take over, make their decisions for them!!!


----------



## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

"Duke is 2.5 years old. We had him trained up until he was 1 and my trainer also noticed this behavior (he did not like him either) and told us we better watch it carefully. So we have for the most part."

Duke - 2009, Just copied this part of your post. I was wondering about Duke's training. Did you send him away for training, or were you a part of that training? Are you still working with the same trainer? Am I understanding that Duke also does not like this trainer and reacts the same to him as the pool guy? Do you think there is anything about the pool guy that reminds Duke of the trainer?


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i really don't think it matters wether they like someone or not, its all about you controlling them in situations, and teaching them appropriate behavior, there are some people Sam does not like, but he needs to tolerate them with my guidence............meaning tolerate their presence.........doesn't mean he has to let them touch him, or get in his space if he's uncomfortable with it, just has to tolerate their presence and behave..........


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

debbiebrown said:


> i really don't think it matters wether they like someone or not, its all about you controlling them in situations, and teaching them appropriate behavior, there are some people Sam does not like, but he needs to tolerate them with my guidence............meaning tolerate their presence.........doesn't mean he has to let them touch him, or get in his space if he's uncomfortable with it, just has to tolerate their presence and behave..........


If Sam decides who can touch him while you are giving him guidance then I really don't see that as much different than Duke. I think they both need to be controlled until they can be around people. All people.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> If Sam decides who can touch him while you are giving him guidance then I really don't see that as much different than Duke. I think they both need to be controlled until they can be around people. All people.


Exactly. After all, you don't know who he doesn't like until it is too late.
" OOOOOPS !!! Sorry sir, I didn't realize that he didn't like you."


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Sam, doesn't decide i do...........he's onleash under my guidence around people. and never left loose to make his own decisions. i have control over him, i can read him well..........if i decide to approach someone he's fine. we work on this in Club all the time, people approaching us, us approaching people, people playing tug with him which he loves, controlled situations where while playing tug people touch him. unlike Duke we have spent tons of time training and conditioning around people.........learning his triggers and thresholds, etc.........


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

just wanted to add, conditioning takes a long time to achieve, small steps at a time without over whelming............if you have a dog that is uncomfortable with new people why would you even let them touch him knowing your dog isn't crazy about strangers touching them, thats setting them up for failure.............So, in my case Sam isn't making the decision not to let people touch him, i am making that decision because i know what the concequences would be..........when we meet new people i make him sit, i talk to the people, and praise and treat him for sitting there behaving himself. he will look at them then focus back on me, which he gets a big praise for. each new person takes careful conditioning.........i also think weaker nerved dogs are Super sensative and totally cued in to someone that is nervous around dogs, which makes a situation worse, so thats something else to consider with these dogs and people...........


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> "Duke is 2.5 years old. We had him trained up until he was 1 and my trainer also noticed this behavior (he did not like him either) and told us we better watch it carefully. So we have for the most part."
> 
> Duke - 2009, Just copied this part of your post. I was wondering about Duke's training. Did you send him away for training, or were you a part of that training? Are you still working with the same trainer? Am I understanding that Duke also does not like this trainer and reacts the same to him as the pool guy? Do you think there is anything about the pool guy that reminds Duke of the trainer?


I was there for the training sessions which were every Saturday. The only similarities of Harry and the trainer are that they both try to assume command of Duke in different ways. The trainer is professional, Harry just pulls up and tries to approach Duke while he is getting barked at almost egging him on.


----------



## Duke-2009 (Apr 13, 2009)

Well now I am really nervous. I brought Duke to Petco yesterday. Our normal Saturday morning thing to socialize with other dogs a bit. Up until this point I did not experience any dog aggression. We came up to a lab and a standard poodle. They sniffed each other like dogs do. Duke's tail wagging. Then the lab growled and barked and the owner took him away. Duke got his hackles up and with the poodle and Duke face to face Duke gave the poodle a snap at the face. No warning in terms of a bark or a growl, just a quick snap like he was try to catch a fly in the air. He did not make contact and I left the store. 

I feel like the older he gets the worse this is going to get. We love him so much but we now do not trust him. This sucks.


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

I have a current thread here on Woolf and his dog fear aggression. His first indicators are tensing of the body, ears straight up and forward, eyes hard and focused. Next step is pupils dilating and grumbling. Third step quickly follows with crossing threshold of hackling, growling, snarling, barking, whites of eyes showing and jumping/lunging. What cues you to this being fear is while he is jumping and lunging, he is actually backing up as if trying to hide. That doesn't mean another dog will do the same or won't move forward. The end result can be the same.. a bite.

Have Duke checked out with the vet just to make sure there isn't something going on physically with him then get started with a good trainer. Right now we are at a kind of wall with Woolf, but without a good trainer on our side, we wouldn't have made anywhere close to the progress we have.

Good luck!!


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lilie said:


> I treat every visitor to my house the same. I am proactive and assume that my dog will bite them. He has never bitten anyone. But first, I don't intend on taking the chance, and second, I don't want anyone to think he won't bite.
> 
> The moment there is a reaction with your dog, you should move to control it. Even if it's just the first seconds of focus - you should control your dog.


Great attitude! I love it. Wish more people did this, there'd be far less problems if they did...


----------

