# Very reactive to dogs -- sending away for training



## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

So for the past few weeks, Titan (about 9 mo) has gotten very reactive to other dogs. It probably started with one or two dogs that he did not like, which ended up in fights (no one was hurt) ... but after that, my girlfriend and I started feeling anxious around other dogs, which he probably reads off of us, and now we have two owners very nervous and a dog who is extremely reactive.

Don't take me wrong, we have spent hours reading most posts in here regarding how we should calm down, and be the leader so Titan does not take it upon himself to decide what to do with the approaching dog. Also, there were some great tips and success stories about the right energy, correction and positive reinforcement. I personally think, all of them are great tips and work great. However, our situation is a bit tricky, and it makes it a hard to follow through those tips/suggestions.

We live in an apartment complex in the city that has 7 floors. Every floor has 5-8 dogs, and the hallways are tiny! It is impossible to avoid encounters with other dogs or to start from a distance. If I see other dogs at the end of the hallway, I just turn around and go the other direction. The main issue is in corners and the elevators. The door opens and there is always a dog (or dogs) and they just enter before I can even tell them to wait. Reactive dog + other dog(s) + elevator = bad situation. He is much better with walks as I can distract him, maintain distance and such. After trying for a few weeks, we have concluded that we just cannot avoid those encounters within the complex and he is getting at least one such negative encounter every day. And the worst part is that people are not cooperative at all, even when I warn them no to come near and that my dog is in training. Most of their dogs (esp. the tiny ones) are off leash, without any training. They run up to Titan and bark, jump, even snap at his ankles and he just completely loses it. At that point, all my calm, composure goes out of the window and it becomes a battle to save the other dog. But obviously, at the end, being a big GSD owner, I get that look of "get a hold of your rabid dog," when their dogs are the ones off leash without any manners whatsoever, running to a dog 10 times their size and getting at his face, while I am doing my best to distract my dog and to maintain a distance. 

We tried group classes. He is great, and is by far the smartest. Plays with the other dogs (unless there are toys, at which point he gets possessive). We picked the training provider/trainer that was most recommended/had best reviews. But they are the type who are against prong collars and such, and EXCLUSIVELY rely on positive training, which works great to teach him new things, but I think being a determined working line pup, I think he needs some boundary-setting. And most of what they were teaching were trick-type stuff, which I can do myself. Whenever we asked for ways to alleviate separation anxiety, counter surfing, and reactivate behavior towards other dogs, we were suggested to watch a certain YouTube video, or read some book.

We searched around and found a few trainers who know how to work with working line GSDs but all of them were a few hours away. At this point, our schedule does now allow us to do that. When all failed, we contacted his breeder (amazing folks!) who are back in Chicago and decided to send Titan away for 30 days to get serious obedience training from them, both of whom are very accomplished trainers -- they know their puppy best and have done this for many many years. We are hoping to go visit them towards the end of the training to learn how we can continue what they would have taught him so that he does not regress with us.

I know that many of you here would not recommend boarding and training, because of bad experiences and of course because you cannot stay without your dogs for that long  Our situation I think is a bit unique -- because of the type of place we live in, and because the trainer will be his breeder (he will also be in the company of his parents, as well has his brother who they picked from the litter to have as their pet) ... We wanted to do this right away (while he has had it only for a few weeks) before it becomes a major issue. 

I just wanted to see what you guys think about it. Apologies for the long post. 

Thanks!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Despite what others might say about board and trains they are often good for that kind of problem provided they have the people with experience to keep the dogs under control and keep the experience positive. He is still at that age where it can be turned around fairly quick.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Despite what others might say about board and trains they are often good for that kind of problem provided they have the people with experience to keep the dogs under control and keep the experience positive. He is still at that age where it can be turned around fairly quick.


I agree. Bill and Jen are very respected trainers and in general great people!
:: BILL KULLA DOG TRAINING ::


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I think it is the right thing to do. Your breeders are incredibly experienced and know the dogs well, as you said, and will probably help you tremendously. He is still young, so there is a good chance he will improve with the right help.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm the kind of person who always likes to have a Plan A, Plan B and Plan C. My Plan A wouldn't include a board and train, but depending on the circumstances, that might be my Plan B. I'd be very very careful on where I took my dog, because anyone can call themselves a trainer, no matter how awful they might be. You've put alot of work in already. If you think this is right for you and your dog, then it probably is.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

I think the biggest challenge for us will be to train ourselves to correctly continue what he gets used to for those 30 days.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm in a similar situation with my reactive 15mth bitch and I completely understand why you've decided to send him away. I met with a trainer who was going to take her for 3 weeks. Like you I thought she needed a firmer hand. It wasn't right for her. His heavy hand was too much for her and after spending a day with him and watching him work with her I decided not to send her away. He got her to stop reacting within a minute but she completely shut down and was terrified of him and subsequently, me. 
Having said all that, his method of training wasn't right for my dog. As I said, we're in a similar situation to you in that there's lots of off lead unpredictable dogs in our area and we don't have access to ANY regular dog trainers. While not trainers, her breeders have 6 GSDs living in their house and if they offered to take her for a couple of weeks to mix her with their pack I would send her tomorrow. 

I would suggest making sure that your trainer works on dogs appearing round corners and in narrow corridors. The training won't do any good if it doesn't match up to how your dog lives his daily life. 

Good luck. I know it's a hard decision and after you've done all the research and tried different methods yourself, only you know what's best for your dog. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

Yes, being too rough on a young puppy can definitely be a problem! We would have never sent him away if we did not know the trainers and the fact that they are his breeders as well. However, we do understand where we will need to limit our expectations, as expecting the dog to be "completely fixed" when he returns would result in nothing but disappointment. If anything, just being in the presence of other dogs, under a experienced trainer in a controlled environment would be great for him. He loves the open, and I feel guilty at times for having had to keep him confined in a city apartment. There is no doubt that we are committed to do the best thing for him, but commitment/expectations and reality don't always align well, and we understand that  We have tried different training options, even bought a car just so we could take him around and will definitely be moving to a place where he does not have to encounter 10 different untrained dogs every day once our contract here expires in August.

Until then though, this seemed to be the best route. Even if he returns with little change, we know that he will have had a blast running around in acres of green space, being in a stress-free environment and getting to play with many other dogs without feeling the need to defend anything.  But being human of course, the hope that he will improve is always there. Whether it happens, only time will tell.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Since he is going to the breeder for training I would think/hope it would be ok.
I've done two board and trains over my life time. Both bad experiences.

The first came highly recommend (sells trained dogs for big bucks). THey did nothing but put her in a kennel and leave her. Absolutely zero training.

THe second, my dog was dead within less then 24 hrs of being with the trainer. I am currently in a law suit and fully anticipate a 5 figure judgement against him.

It's risky as anybody can put a sign out and claim to be a trainer. Do you homework if you are going that route (and even then it's not a given).


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

I am so sorry to hear about your dog  I hope every bit of justice is served. This is the reason Titan will go back to his breeder and no one else, regardless of what they claim to be.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

A send away is pretty much always a last resort but it sounds like the circumstances require it and the situation he's going into seems ideal. 

You pretty much laid out what I would call a worse case scenario that you and your dog are living with on a daily basis. It sounds like a sound decision, good luck!


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## lovemygirl (Jan 19, 2014)

If you can, it may help to use a basket muzzle until Titan is sent away and, if you feel it is necessary/desirable, when he comes back. You and your GF will feel more confident and comfortable knowing that he can't hurt another dog, which will help Titan feel more relaxed. Good luck!!


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

Thanks!

I did not think about a muzzle. Definitely a good idea, we will keep in mind!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It doesn't matter where the dog goes, what does matter is that the dog is being trained and the owner isn't because they aren't present.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

The mentioned breeders-trainers know what is going on and they would be very happy to sell you a load of instructions with a "happy" return of your "corrected" dog. Don't do that, I worn you. First of all, *separation with the owner is a greatest stress young dog can ever get*, unless he is used to. This issue breaks the dog's spirit, but only for a short while. He would be returned to you seemingly refreshed and corrected and wouldn't react on other dogs for one month or so, because the stress doesn't go away so easily, but then he would go back to square one as nothing happened to him. That is if he was treated nicely there. But sometimes trainers only speak with sweet voice. I know cases when dogs, having issues with dog biting, or occasional biting naughty child in the street were taken away, and returned unexpectedly agressive towards the members of the family. I can only guess, what happened to them, the trainer tried to break the spirit of the dog hard way. 
Instead, I'd try to calm you down. I hope, other trainers will agree with my points. 
1. Nine months - close to the sexual maturity, it explains good half of your problem. The hormonal flow, before it regulates itself in the body overwhelms your dog. He is a male, and it is absolutely normal for them to demonstate agressiveness between 7-8 months and two years of age. In cynology and all canine research this age is called different names, but all describe adolescence intermediate period. If you had a teenager son, would you send him into psychiatric hospital for a year because he had fights continuously in his school? No, you wouldn't. You would take him to a psychologist. You need a private trainer, preferably with a dog, and that dog would show your dog examples of correct behaviour, dogs learn from each other much better, while the trainer will give you training *tips based on his observation with the owner*.
2. All dogs behave similarly on their own territory and differently somewhere in the street. That is their instinct tells them to protect their home, and that is indestructable, unless your dog is chaned and all sorts of dogs, cats, people, horses and buffalo start moving through your appartment every day for many months. Then his protective instinct would be confused. Doesn't matter how big the building block is, it is a spacious cave for him with many tunnels where his pack hides in one of dens. Absolutely the same story with little rascals, they attack your dog because they protect their home, believing that the whole big cave belongs only to them. The most horrible stories I have ever heard are those when two neighbours go at each other. Just relieve yourself from this responsibility and muzzle your dog between your front door and the door outside, I don't think it is that difficult. Your dog reactions to dogs in the street has nothing to do with this and could be changed.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

llombardo said:


> It doesn't matter where the dog goes, what does matter is that the dog is being trained and the owner isn't because they aren't present.


This really resonates to me.. As i think the owner should be going to the bootcamp not the dog.. I know i should be. Since when did any trainer become the magical man? 

If you have D (dog) and H (human) and T (Trainer). If T trains D, and D is now on the right track. If H does not get the same training how is D going to continue the progress? If D and H work with T, then both get same training and can progress together and continue excelling together. 
_I didn't see your post before posting my vent on board and train!_ So my suggestion is, ff you are going to spend however much you are going to spend on your board and train, look up a good private trainer with good reputation near you and see how many sessions you could do with trainer, that would be working with you and your dog. Just saying! I think for me it would be close to 18-20 sessions if i did a 2 week board/train. 4 week board train, double that number!


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Baillif said:


> Despite what others might say about board and trains they are often good for that kind of problem provided they have the people with experience to keep the dogs under control and keep the experience positive. He is still at that age where it can be turned around fairly quick.


What happens when Titan comes home, calm and trained and Titan's owners are still feeling nervous about him and other dogs?

Won't Titan go back to his old ways and become reactive, even fear aggressive because of owners nervousness?

I'm not keen at all on sending your dog away to be trained, my biggest concern is you don't know what the trainers are doing to him for him to suddenly improve.

I would think you need to work on yourselves first, you need to trust your own abilities to handle him and trust Titan.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

I totally agree with your comments. The separation anxiety for a young pup, and the stress of air travel is immense. And it is a very logical question to ask, "What happens when he gets back?" 

I grew up having German Shepherds. But I had never raised one, let alone a working line puppy. I made the decision to go for a GSD because I was fond of them, and highly admired them for what they are. I went for a working line because of their sound temperament and solid nerves. I am someone who invests significant amount of time and resource in researching things as important as getting a dog. But I will also be the first one to admit that sometimes how we think things will turn out and how they do turn out are two different scenarios, not only because we underestimate things, but also because things out-of-control happen that we do not anticipate.

My girlfriend and I both lost our jobs within weeks of getting Titan and were unemployed for months. Yet, we have spent every dollar we can spare to give him the best nutrition, vet care and training. We live in a city, and don't need a car. But Titan cannot travel in public transportation, and we cannot walk 10s of miles everyday, so we bought a car battling through expenses just so we can take him to places where he can get trained/exercises. Our intention to send him away does not stem from the idea of an easy fix, but what we evaluated as the best case for him.

But at the same, we have to realize that we are very inexperienced owners and our dog is a very driven young (but powerful) male. He is also not neutered, which does not fare very will with other dogs. We live in a dense apartment complex with tons of dogs that are willing to take him on. We are not capable of handling this on our own. Personal training will not work for us -as once a week, twice a week, thrice a week for an hour at a time, is barely enough. We have tried it.

With boarding and training with this breeders and people we trust, he gets attention 24/7. And as for us being trained, we are even willing to travel up there towards the end of the training or a weekend or so, so that they can hand over the baton to us.

As much as it may seem that way, we are not sending him over to get him off our responsibility. We are very committed to the well-being of Titan, and this seemed to be the best option for him, even though it may be far from the optimal route. It will give him the foundation, and give us a more confident start.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My male was about the same age as yours when I got him. He was very reactive and not allowed in any classes. We also lived in an apartment building with dogs in every unit, mostly small dogs in my building. Other buildings in the immediate vicinity also had dogs of all sizes. A good mix if pits, American bulldogs, etc. there was nowhere I could take mine and it bothered me, it bothered me enough that I sat in front of pet stores and at the local parks working with him daily. He was evaluated by several trainers, he was put behind barricades, and he ripped open one trainers arm trying to get to another dog. I didn't stop, I kept moving forward because I couldn't have a dog that was like that. I finally found someone with a stable dog that was willing to let Midnite meet their dog. That changed everything. It was loud, I was scared, but after a few minutes it was good. I was offered private training by one trained and I declined. I found a GSD club and from the first day we were there Midnite has never reacted again. So it can be done and it takes a lot of work, work that I put into him and I'm very proud of. I would not have gotten those same results if I sent him away. I would have learned nothing. It takes a lot longer then a week or a month to learn. It's a lifetime of learning...I still learn daily, we learn together.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A lot of the dog reactivity issue can be fixed fairly easy by immersion into groups of dogs that are under handler control. Basically like a dog park only there is someone that can read the dogs and stop situations that cause your dog to see other dogs as instant threats. That alone almost makes the board and train worth it because it is hard to find that. The flip side of that is your dog learns social skills and you get taught correction methods or management strategies that help the issue from creeping up again. Any obedience they put on the dog would be a bonus


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'll tell you what I see, from the situations you describe, it sounds like the "building" you live in is the biggest problem. TIght quarters with alot of unruly dogs. Your dog is now in big time defense mode/ "I'll get you before you get me", from the sounds of what is going on.

I am not going to say to "not" send away for training..(personally I wouldn't) however, my question would be, the training he's going to get , is it going to be training for the type of situation he finds himself in? Tight quarters in a building with lots of unruly dogs??? 

It sounds like he is ok out in public, at dog class, the main issue being where you live.
Obviously you can't 'move' to improve the situation, but personally, I think it would be more beneficial to have a trainer come to your home and work with him in that real life situation he finds himself in every day. 

Unfortunately alot of dogs that go to board/train, come back and are ok for a few days, maybe a week, but without owners being trained as well, revert to old behaviors pretty quickly..

Hope it works for you tho


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Seeing as how this is already in the works, it is a done deal?
I'd contact Wild Wolf and Elizabeth here as they both lived in high rises with GSD's and other dogs getting in their faces on the elavators or hallways was a daily occurrence. Ask them how they managed their dogs. I agree with the others that said board and train probably won't help this situation unless the trainer works the dog in such scenario's that your dog is reacting in. 
Is your dog a lower threshold type? If so, that can't usually be 'trained' out...you just need to learn how to be proactive and manage it.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Things like DA are handled well in board and train. The type of training used changes how the dog views other dogs. It has less to do with handler interaction than obedience exercises. 

Military and many LE dogs are trained by many different trainers before they end up on a handler. Many of them also switch handlers several times. They don't just forget their training because someone new ids holding the leash. The also remember the trainers they have worked with in the past. If the OP goes and gets some instruction from the trainer, and would suggest some video footage of the training as well, I think it's a good situation.

I also think it's a good move in this case, because of who the dog is going to. The B&T nightmares happen when unethical trainers use harsh methods or fail to provide proper care and husbandry for the dog.

David Winners


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## nicky (Jan 12, 2014)

I am so glad I am not alone in this. I have the same exact problem with my dog reacting to other dogs and cats. She was even raised around other dogs and cats and for some reason lately she is out of control with other dogs. 

She is also 9 months old and I did send her to a board and train with her breeder. It was suppose to be a 2 month deal but I got her out of there at 3 weeks. It was a huge loss for me financially, you can't believe what I had to do to get $ to do that. I could give you a long rant on what happened but you gotta do what you gotta do. People told me I was crazy to do it but I did it anyways. Lesson learned for me. 

If I could do it over I would say that just because the (my) breeder/trainer had a nice website with his family and all his dogs being all lovely and he talked a good talk, that didn't mean he was a good trainer. I would of asked to see his dogs working and look at their relationship (his dogs were shakey around him) and I would of asked to see where she would be kept, and if I could just stop in once or twice to see her. Usually they don't allow this ("training") but if that wasn't even an option I wouldn't do it. He probably would be annoyed to ask all of this and would look at me like "one of those crazy dog owners" but if he wanted to help us, for big money of course, I would absolutely insist.

I like the private training and it gives me time to work on things before next session. The new trainer I am going to is 2 1/2 hours away but Im afraid if I don't get serious about training her I will get myself and her in some serious trouble. I have the time though so thats makes it easier for me.

Good luck and let us know how its going!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would never suggest someone send their dog to a trainer that wouldn't allow the person to visit, at any time. I would want to see the trainer in action before I left the dog. I would want to see the facilities. I would check references first.

None of this has anything to do with the potential effectiveness of board and train, but rather the quality of the trainer.

David Winners


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

One solution for passing dogs in corridors and lifts is to use a tight collar fitted under the chin and a short leash. When you apply pressure you are directing it to the dogs head rather than the dog shoulders. It will respond much more this way. Any slack gives the dog a chance to lunge at the other dogs. A loose collar or harness gives you a lot less control. 

A fabric muzzle will give you some comfort that your dog is less likely to do any damage to another. Some dogs feel restricted with such a muzzle and are more contained when wearing one. 

Also you just have to get over your own anxiety and fear of dogs snarling or being aggressive. It sounds and looks worse than it is. By reacting you make the situation worse. You look unstable and the dog will try to protect you more and feel free to act out. 

If your cool you can observe more clearly and act more appropriately. You send a message to the dog that you don't get fazed in a stressful situation. Then it can be more comfortable in your presence.

Check out Tyler Muto on how to calm a dog using leash pressure. Note how the dogs begin to observe him after a few minutes. When you are out in a park you can try out his techniques. Best to find somewhere with out distractions to begin with.
Tyler Muto - YouTube

How I get a dog to walk calmly on a loose leash is to actually make the walk challenging for the dog. I slow down, speed up, turn around, cross the road. Walk around objects, bins, lamp poles, etc Anything to break the dog out of a slow boring walk or a frustrating walk with dog pulling on the leash.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Also you just have to get over your own anxiety and fear of dogs snarling or being aggressive. It sounds and looks worse than it is. By reacting you make the situation worse. You look unstable and the dog will try to protect you more and feel free to act out.
> 
> If your cool you can observe more clearly and act more appropriately. You send a message to the dog that you don't get fazed in a stressful situation. Then it can be more comfortable in your presence.


Yes, and this is the biggest part of the management, IMO....when the dog sees that the handler has 'it', the dog doesn't feel the need to be ON all the time. The weight of the dog having to be in control is lifted from them. 
Handlers need to let the dog know they are the one that the dog looks to for instruction and it is a huge confidence builder. 
More often than not reactivity is because the dog is in that fight or flight mode. 
I'll recommend it again> Control Unleashed


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

llombardo said:


> it can be done and it takes a lot of work, work that I put into him and I'm very proud of. I would not have gotten those same results if I sent him away. I would have learned nothing. It takes a lot longer then a week or a month to learn. It's a lifetime of learning...I still learn daily, we learn together.


I agree to what you are saying, and wish I was still in Chicago. I am fairly new to Seattle and it takes time to find places, and people who will willingly help me out. As this is happening, along with other things job-wise and such, Titan is getting worse and having incidents every day. At the same time, we are also getting increasingly anxious about the whole situation. 



JakodaCD OA said:


> I'll tell you what I see, from the situations you describe, it sounds like the "building" you live in is the biggest problem...
> ...Unfortunately alot of dogs that go to board/train, come back and are ok for a few days, maybe a week, but without owners being trained as well, revert to old behaviors pretty quickly..


Yes, building is the major PITA. I had to find a place in Seattle that accepted GSDs while I was in Chicago -- did not even get to see it, my friend had to pick it out based on pictures. I know, bad idea. But the job situation compelled me to pick the first one that accepted GSDs. 

Yes, that has been our concern as well. My trainers will work with me by posting videos of the training an such, but we are even thinking of taking a flight up there for the last few days so we can learn how to handle him from there on.



onyx'girl said:


> Seeing as how this is already in the works, it is a done deal?
> I'd contact Wild Wolf and Elizabeth here as they both lived in high rises with GSD's


It is not a done deal. That is why I am still posting. I want to make sure I make the best decision given the scenario, with help from folks like you who have much more experience in GSDs than I do. 

I did speak with Wild Wolf -- her dog Hunter is in fact from Bill and Jen, the same folks who bred my pup, Titan, and the same folks who he is going to. She has worked with them very closely and has wholehearted recommendations. Not that I ever doubted Bill and Jen, my doubt is whether sending him away is a good thing.  



David Winners said:


> I also think it's a good move in this case, because of who the dog is going to. The B&T nightmares happen when unethical trainers use harsh methods or fail to provide proper care and husbandry for the dog.


Agree. That is the reason Titan is flying all the way to IL to his breeders, and not to the many board and train services that exists within 60 miles from where we live.



nicky said:


> She is also 9 months old and I did send her to a board and train with her breeder. It was suppose to be a 2 month deal but I got her out of there at 3 weeks. It was a huge loss for me financially, you can't believe what I had to do to get $ to do that. I could give you a long rant on what happened but you gotta do what you gotta do. People told me I was crazy to do it but I did it anyways. Lesson learned for me.


I am so sorry to hear that you had a bad experience. I know my breeders/trainers very well. I have visited their training facility. They are very well respected trainers/competitors and have complete guarantee that they will take care absolute care of Titan. Like I said above, there is no concern whatsoever about how Titan will be treated, or what he will be fed, or where he will live -- my concern is how I can make the best of sending him away, and what we can to do pick up and continue from there on.



onyx'girl said:


> Yes, and this is the biggest part of the management, IMO....when the dog sees that the handler has 'it', the dog doesn't feel the need to be ON all the time.


I agree. We feel that Titan feeds off our nervousness. Maybe if we send him while he trains, we can catch the break as a time to educate ourselves. I have already paid for group obedience classes (which did not work out for Titan). While he is gone, we can continue to go to those classes, and instead of worrying who he is going lunge at, observe and focus on what we need to learn about dog behavior. This could also be a time to catch up on books, videos, or even take a few private lessons just our own to soak things up ... or even work with some other trained dogs.

We are at a state where we feel a bit hopeless as we have tried many things. There are other things surrounding us (tight projects, rude people, crazy dogs) which make things worse. Provided that we have access to amazing breeders/trainers who we know will take complete care of our pup, we thought this would be the right time to get him the foundation, and give ourselves that restart that we needed to man up and get going again.

Our only concern is -- would Titan behave differently with us, would the change in places be too much for him, would it change his personality (not due to the training methods, but because of separation anxiety or something like that).


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I've met Bill and Jen and I've seen them train so I'd trust their abilities and style...

I just don't know how much it will help you in your situation. What you're going through is very environmental and situational. I think your dog is reacting very normally to other dogs coming up to his face "aggressively." You can only teach a dog to ignore for so long...

The reason I don't know if this will work is that YOU will not be able to emulate what Bill and Jen do with your dog. Not only because they're more skilled...but also because you're not there to watch them and for them to teach YOU what you're doing wrong. How your corrections are probably a split second too late, and how you're not seeing certain things in your own dog before anything happens. Bill and Jen will also not be able to recreate the situations you've been describing, so not sure how that will help.

I guess without knowing what the cost is...no one can tell you if its worth it or not. But I'll just assume you'll be paying at least $600 for round trip air fare...and $600 can go a very very long way in private lessons. I guess to me this type of training would not be worth a round trip to anywhere, no need to put my dog on a plane for something like this, but to you it might be worth it.

I had a friend that sent a dog off...two weeks later it was back and definitely behaved better. Behaved better for about two weeks, but then realized it wasn't getting the same kind of treatment as it did during the "bootcamp" and went back to its old ways. My friend was never taught how to lay down the rules and treat the dog the way that trainer did...so he couldn't follow up with those things. Soon enough the dog was back to it's old self...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Check out the Control Unleashed exercises...you may be surprised at how well they work.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Sending away for 30 day is a long time. And what will your dog be trained for? He's not being trained in the situation where you are living. Have you considered private lessons, on the spot in your apt complex? This is where the issue is, why not train him here?

Our old trainer did this type of training, but for 2 weeks max. The dogs that boarded with him for those two weeks developed a bond for the trainer. One time at training in a large group class, the trainer wanted to show off the dog he and another trainer spent two weeks with. The dog was supposed to do a long recall to the owner across the field, in front of 25 dogs or so. The dog recalled fine - right to the female trainer, not the owner.


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

Utsav, it must be very difficult for you, living where you are with Titan being reactive. But from reading your posts, you don't have your head in the clouds, you are aware of yours and Titan's limitations and willing to go forward.

I think sometimes we all need to evaluate our situations and do what is right for ourselves and our dogs. I know of a woman with many years of experience with training, breeding and showing GSDs - many years. Quite some time ago now, she had a male that was one of the most head strong dominant dogs she had every owned and seen for that matter. His temperament was pretty good, he was ok with other dogs, ok with people, just a very strong minded GSD male. She persevered with him, but she could just not achieve results with him. She ended up talking to another handler (a male) who took over this dogs training, this guy did everything she did, nothing different in their training methods but the GSD male really responded to this man - this dog would do anything for him, the change in personalty with the dog having a male handler was amazing. Anyway, I was always very impressed with this woman, she did not let her ego get in the way and put up her hands and said 'I can not train this dog'. I think by admitting her limitations with the male GSD, she was able to find a handler that benefited the dog and also herself.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

Thank you everyone for such passionate responses. This forum is truly amazing, not only for the wealth of information it has, but also for the sheer number of great members it has, who are genuinely willing to help. I have often been to many other forums where I have spent hours researching, then finally asked a question, only to be mocked, ridiculed or told that it is a repost and that I should improve my "search" skills. So thank you for not being that -- I have felt welcomed here from day one.

Back to Titan. As many of you have pointed here, not being able to train together has been a concern for us about sending him away. Our circumstances were pretty tricky and we had amazing breeders/trainers in Bill and Jen to resort to. We have the vet clearance with us, and his flight is booked for tomorrow morning at 6 AM. We also have a size 700 kennel we bought yesterday for him.

After deliberating for hours on end however, we have decided to NOT send him. He is a headstrong young pup, exactly what a great driven GSD should be. Sending him away, would undeniably fix him but you are all correct, it would be a temporary fix. Until we are mentally stronger than him, it will never work on the long run. So we have decided to man up and do what it takes to show the dog that we are confident leaders that he can rely on. If it means 100s of hours spent on books, videos, this great forum and actual time spent training with Titan, so be it. If all fails, the option to send him to Bill and Jen will always be there.

We will start by getting him a muzzle so we don't feel the fear of him hurting anyone. Like some of you have suggested, we will take him to places where he can safely observe other dogs, and learn that they are not too bad. We will also try to see if anyone is willing to help us out with their calm dogs (perhaps we can find someone from this forum). 

Once again, thank you for everyones responses, they helped us turn something that was lingering in our minds into a decision. Whether it is the right decision or not, only time will tell. But as of now, I think I am happy that we have decided to give it one more determined push to work with our pup. I think he deserves at least that much.

I will post updates here in the coming days/weeks (or another thread if that is more appropriate).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Maybe this website can help you...German Shepherd Dog Club of Washington State, Inc

I have complete faith in all of you(dog included). It's not going to be easy, but in the end it is rewarding. Keep an open mind to all different training methods and use a combination of any and all that is needed. The most important thing is for you to let go of your fear because that goes right down the leash. It was one of my bigger things to get over so I understand that. You have a dog from a good breeder and that gives you an advantage to begin with. Good luck


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Wow well this is a surprise but good for you!  In regards to muzzles I like the Blk fabric ones myself I used one on Rocky because I was "concerned" about his interactions with people. The fabric one is a lot less scary looking for everyone involved other dogs and people. 

It's not as secures as a real muzzle and a dog could get it off in a serious struggle but for training purposes with conscientious owners it's ideal.

Training phase if you can find some "balanced dogs" that's fine other than that no dog to dog intros, just keep moving, just make the other dogs a non issue and move along.

Oh and Rock is fine today haven't used the muzzle in years. 

Someone brought up the point that he's changing, seems a little early to me but yes, My GSD is the only dog I have every had where he's one dog for 18 month's in my case ,then one day he's another dog that has "suddenly " developed issues??

Never seen anything like it before Rocky (Avatar).


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm glad your going to try to work with him before sending him away. 

I would look in YOUR area, for a good trainer/behaviorist, one who is gsd savvy, that can come evaluate the situations and help you from right where you are.

Maybe post this in the looking for a trainer in your area forum


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I sent you a PM of someone in your area that might be able to help.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

You guys will do great together! It's a long road, but by working with him in tandem with a trainer you will learn SO much... I've dealt with similar issues with my boy and I promise that while it can get discouraging and feel like you're making no progress sometimes, the skill set you'll be left with will be huge and your bond with your dog will be even stronger. 

Good luck! I am looking forward to updates  


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Kudo's to you for trying to get thru this stage on your own. The age of your pup is probably one of the hardest to deal with when the puppy no longer looks like a pup and acts out(seems like this is the age puppy's get dumped on CL or in shelters)

I look forward to reading about the progress you are making...you can do this. Your dog will end up as a great representative for the breed, he has it in his genes!!!


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## rumhelka (Aug 31, 2011)

I think you did the right thing by not sending your dog away. I also have a German Shepherd, who, despite all the socialization I had given her is still very reactive to other dogs. It's like:hackles up, bark,bark,here I am the baddest of all German Shepherd!!!
She started doing it at about 9 months of age and still continues. I'm lucky to live in a Single Family home, so we meet other dogs only on the street. I can easily distract her saying "look at me" which helps a lot. Sometimes I just walk pararell with the other owner and his dog until mine calms down. But she is never friendly to other dogs like a Golden Retriever would be. I think that it is pretty common among German Shepherds not to like other dogs and that's why they are not good candidates for dog parks.  
You should always walk him on a short leash, so he knows you are in control. When a loose dog approaches, stand between him and your dog and and give a strong signal to both dogs that you control the situation. Bear in mind that inspite of all your best intentions and training he might never change a lot. I have a neighbor who breeds and trains Borzoys (Russian wolfhounds). One of her dogs is aggressive to other dogs and she can not change it... neither can I change my shepherd...


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

I have a dog reactive dog and at one point thought about sending her some place to get trained. But the more I thought about it, the more I didn't want to do that. I think for me, it is important for me to be trained...more than the dog..lol. What I think I would really like is a dog and handler board and train. What fun that would be....to go away for a week or whatever with my dog while we learn new skills.


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## Amurphy26 (Jul 22, 2012)

Katdog I totally agree. I searched for ages looking for a board and train for me and my dog. Most people I spoke to didn't want the owner involved until the end of boarding. 
A good trainer should be happy to have the trainer present. I've finally found one with a great reputation and who has loads of GSD experience (police and now support dogs) and uses positive reinforcement. My dog and I are spending 2 hours plus a day with him for a week working in all sorts of environments and with other dogs. The aim is to get her relaxed in one of his classes by the end of the week. Very hopeful and excited. Wish it hadn't taken me a year to find him!


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I think the fact that the owner isn't getting the proper training after a board and train has more to do with the trainer, than the fact that the dog is being sent away. Any trainer who offers board and train should have the ability to effectively transfer that information to the dog's owner and give support after the fact. If they can't or won't offer those things, then there is a flaw with their programs.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Gharrissc said:


> I think the fact that the owner isn't getting the proper training after a board and train has more to do with the trainer, than the fact that the dog is being sent away. Any trainer who offers board and train should have the ability to effectively transfer that information to the dog's owner and give support after the fact. If they can't or won't offer those things, then there is a flaw with their programs.


This


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It also depends on the owner....if the owner isn't trained to support the dog, the dog is failed. Some who send dogs away are thinking they are getting back the magically trained dog who will be perfect when it returns. The owners lack of knowledge will not help the dog stay in that zone.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There are owners that just wont follow through with all the training and support. There is going to be a largely different mentality with the people who are on this forum regarding the commitment to changing bad behavior and that kind of thing vs the general population at large. If you board and trained at a good place with handler sessions and guaranteed support most of you would be pretty happy with how it turned out if you stuck with it. 

I didn't see the value of it until i worked at one. The turn arounds in some of the dogs is pretty remarkable but more so than that the dog pack interactions really are great for the dogs. If i didnt have access to the facilities here without paying for them id def put the next pup into it if for no other reason for the confidence building and life experiences.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

llombardo said:


> Good luck


Thank you!



Chip18 said:


> Wow well this is a surprise but good for you!  In regards to muzzles I like the Blk fabric ones myself I used one on Rocky because I was "concerned" about his interactions with people. The fabric one is a lot less scary looking for everyone involved other dogs and people.


We decided to completely avoid the dog run that we have on the terrace of our complex because essentially, it is a private dog park. So far, we have had success with it. So so far so good and have not needed the muzzle yet.



JakodaCD OA said:


> I would look in YOUR area, for a good trainer/behaviorist, one who is gsd savvy, that can come evaluate the situations and help you from right where you are.


Yes, that would be our next step. At this point, we are simply trying to see how much we can avoid just by being more confident. It has worked well in the past couple of days.



GSDAlphaMom said:


> I sent you a PM of someone in your area that might be able to help.


I received that! Thank you so much! I will contact her soon.



LoveEcho said:


> You guys will do great together!


Thank you!



onyx'girl said:


> I look forward to reading about the progress you are making...you can do this. Your dog will end up as a great representative for the breed, he has it in his genes!!!


Thanks, I will post updates here.



rumhelka said:


> I think you did the right thing by not sending your dog away.


I believe so too 



katdog5911 said:


> I think for me, it is important for me to be trained...more than the dog


Exact reason we backed up last minute.



Gharrissc said:


> I think the fact that the owner isn't getting the proper training after a board and train has more to do with the trainer, than the fact that the dog is being sent away.





Baillif said:


> There are owners that just wont follow through with all the training and support. There is going to be a largely different mentality with the people who are on this forum regarding the commitment to changing bad behavior and that kind of thing vs the general population at large. If you board and trained at a good place with handler sessions and guaranteed support most of you would be pretty happy with how it turned out if you stuck with it.
> 
> I didn't see the value of it until i worked at one. The turn arounds in some of the dogs is pretty remarkable but more so than that the dog pack interactions really are great for the dogs. If i didnt have access to the facilities here without paying for them id def put the next pup into it if for no other reason for the confidence building and life experiences.


We are in Seattle. Our trainer (our pup's breeders), are in Chicago. They would love to have us train everyday with the dog, the distance wasn't making it possible, for which reason we decided not to send him away.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

UPDATE:

Walking him on the prong collar is so much better. We have gotten better already at avoiding dogs out on the streets -- if it is sudden and too close, we try to turn around and leave, or cross the street. If there is a fair distance, than I let Titan observe the dog(s) and if he stiffens up, I try to distract him with a command, and then reward if he listens, or correct if he doesn't. We have stopped going to the dog run that we have on the terrace of the complex because almost all dogs are off-leash and 1/10 have any sort of recall. So if they run to Titan (even to play), it may be a bad encounter for him, and we are trying to minimize that.

I took him on an hour-long walk through a busy route (dogs, joggers, cyclists, children) Thursday over to the Fremont bridge (Image) -- he seemed slightly skeptical of the swaying of the bridge, but very quickly handled it like a champ. We passed many dogs (at a distance) and he seemed fine -- wasn't stiff or anything, just curiously watched them and before that energy escalated, I broke his eye contact and we were off. 

On our way back though, this huge dog (St. Bernard I think), ran towards Titan from nowhere, growling and barking. He was off-leash, so instinctively, I tucked Titan behind me and stood tall in front of the dog. Luckily, the owner called him back and the dog seemed pretty dog with his recall. I was surprised that Titan did not go after him but just watched. The dog tried running towards us the second time, but this time, Titan gave him a warning bark with the exhibit of his raised heckles. Even then, nothing like the raging "I will kill you" mode that Titan had recently been getting into. I played down the whole situation casually and we went on and he seemed fine. I guess I could call this a mini success?

Hopefully as time passes, we will be able to reduce the distance. I honestly don't care if he is able to be "best friends" with other dogs, or even play with him. If he can ignore them, I am good. Andre and I can provide him with all the fun time he needs. Of course, if he does improve and becomes friends with some dogs, even better. He continues to be excellent around humans, no issue there whatsoever.

I will post more updates as I see fit  Thank you.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

utsavized said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Walking him on the prong collar is so much better. We have gotten better already at avoiding dogs out on the streets -- if it is sudden and too close, we try to turn around and leave, or cross the street. If there is a fair distance, than I let Titan observe the dog(s) and if he stiffens up, I try to distract him with a command, and then reward if he listens, or correct if he doesn't. We have stopped going to the dog run that we have on the terrace of the complex because almost all dogs are off-leash and 1/10 have any sort of recall. So if they run to Titan (even to play), it may be a bad encounter for him, and we are trying to minimize that.
> 
> ...


Just an observation...do not let him focus on any other dogs. If you are walking him and see a dog coming, get his focus on you. Put him in a sit and teach him watch, which is watch you. Bring high value treats. Sit on a park bench and let on dog pass by at a distance you know doesn't get a reaction. If a dog is coming and your dog breaks focus take som treats and throw them the opposite way so your dog forgets other dog and goes into hunt mode. Do not throw treats if other dog is off leash.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with the above, no locking in on other dogs...get that focus on you before it can happen.
You are showing stronger leadership so Titan is more secure and confident because he knows you've got this! Good for you to take control and use your handling skills successfully. Keep up the great work! 
And you are right in the thought that he doesn't need to be buddies with dogs, but be neutral to them. Better to have one or two dogs he knows very well that he can play with now and then.


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## utsavized (Feb 25, 2013)

*Update*

Hello everyone! Once again, thank you for all your responses! I have a few updates since I last posted in this thread:

*We found a great trainer:*

We found someone who was highly recommended by our breeders and has a lot of experience with working lines. I say "sort of" because it is in a different city, about an hour or so away. We have had 2 sessions so far, and it has already made so much difference -- although so far, he has mostly trained us, instead of the dog. We have learned how to use the prong collar correctly, when to give corrections, how to make him work for everything ... although he said, being a GSD, the vocal whining and complaining will never go away  I am assuming that we are still a few training sessions away from starting formal obedience so far.

*What has changed (in Titan):*

He now understands that he needs to work for whatever he wants. He is still rambunctious, but he is also only 10 month old, so I do not want to set expectations of an adult dog from him. After he throws his tantrums though, he realizes that they are not working, and then settles down to submission -- and that is when he gets what he wants. What we missed earlier is that we overlooked these small things where he got away with.

Does that mean he is now fixed? Possibly not. I say possibly because (believe it or not), we have not had even one face-to-face encounter with another dog since I last posted. Secret stairways, back-doors and grand escapes galore  There have been times when he's seen other dogs, but I think I am getting good at knowing that exact timing when to tell him to "leave it" and move on. The next step is to perhaps, start off with a long distance, maybe 50 ft. then shorten it to a point where he can effectively pass other dogs without caring about it. 

*What has changed (in us):*

I am putting the rest of the awesomeness in this section because I figured this is more of us changing rather than Titan. When I walk him, it isn't a walk to get him tired, or because he feels bored anymore. When I walk him, he is doing work for me. He does not get food, toy or even step out side of the house, without seeking permission -- which means, going down on the ground (chin on the floor), no panting, and giving that look of "Please, can I have it?" -- these rules alone, have done wonders. He knows when we play, he knows when it's business. Of course, there are the odd rebel moments, but then again he is only 10 months.

What this has done to my girlfriend and I, is given us confidence. When I see a dog now, I do not stress out, instead command him to follow me in the other direction, make him, sit, tell him to look at me. And it works. I was always told, it was me who is transferring the anxiety, and it could not be more true! Walks are much more fun! Also to get him exercise, we take him to this huge piece of unused land owned by my employer, put him on a 50 ft. check cord, then then let him fetch, run around, smell, but also work on recall, etc. It helps that there are no dogs there!

The next step now is to start getting him closer to other dogs -- not to socialize or be friends but just to be completely desensitized to them. We are still working on his focus before we start with that.

Once again, thank you so much for everyone's advice and support. I will continue to make periodical updates here.

-Utsav


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Congrats!!! I'm glad everything is going so well. It's amazing what structured obedience can do  Good job to you guys and Titan!!!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I am so glad to hear things are turning around for y'all! Very few people will actually 'listen' to their trainer and realize changes have to come through you, first! 

Great Job! Great Job!


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## lafalce (Jan 16, 2001)

That's really great news. Awesome that your breeder was able to recommend someone in your new town.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

utsavized said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey...get out of my head!


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