# The Pack Dynamics when you lose a friend....



## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

It has thankfully been 6 years since I lost my heart dog and at the time I only had one other so the pack dynamics changed but not considerably. Just curious as the time is fast approaching that I will lose my girl....I have two males 2 yrs and 6 yrs and two females 12 yrs and 5 months. How did the pack dynamics change in other packs when they lose their senior alpha dog? Do you notice the other pack members trying to take dominance before the alpha is gone? Do I have to worry about my two males getting into stronger dominance fights when the elder alpha female is gone? I am already seeing the younger male try to challenge my alpha elder girl and it irritates me to no end and he is crated and removed from the situation when it happens and once now my older male has also growled and hackles raised at my elder girl. Is this them trying to take dominance because of her health? I worry about my old girl and do not want her to be uncomfortable or depressed if she loses dominance before her time her is gone.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Mine got more respectful of Kramer, and a little fearful because he got a little more unpredictably snappy and touchy about being touched. Because he was like...uber in charge, and all my dogs had to be less dominant than him, they never challenged him. They also knew that the gates of hades would open up on them if they did anything to the seniors, and actually are not the kind of dogs to want anything to be disrupted in their pack (most of mine NEED a pack to be okay). 

Bella, while he was still here, would get bossy with the others because she knew he had her back. After he passed away, she freaked out, got stress colitis, and was unable to function without him for a while. She basically faded away-striking out in a very non-leader way-and then retreating. She is just starting to get some respect now-they didn't NOT respect her, she just didn't want to deal with anything. She and Bruno seem to be teaming up-neither are true alpha dogs so the co-leader seems to help. 

Just like at work-when the irreplaceable person leaves, it takes two to fill the position! 

Previously when Nina had passed, even though she was lower in the pack structure, there was jostling amongst the girls. They all ended up where they started, but it was like they had to do it just to make sure. 

I would do like you-I am not sure it's right, but want to preserve the dignity of the older dog, even if it's because I am sticking up for them to the younger ones. But you know, in my mind, if you get your point across you are also setting yourself up as more in control for after she passes so they won't have such a leadership void. 

Here we try to be kind-that's my goal with my dogs. That they can be kind to each other-so when Rocco puppy picked on Mariele the other day, Bella gave him a "that's not nice" correction, and I was so proud, because that's what Kramer would have done too. 

I am sorry that you are going through this. I may be so wrong, but want my dogs to respect the seniors-not through any great shows of force, but by letting them know through look, attitude, and voice that it is unacceptable to treat a pack member like that.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yeah my dogs used to know about the respect that they were expected to give each other but since a year ago when my girl has been on her pain meds and joint sups she has been more snippy and growly. Now the boys are testing her a little more and it seems they are trying to take her dominance and she won't let it go. She never attacks and never bites but she will get into the other dogs faces and tell them to leave her alone. And I let her because she is alpha and if it goes past her just telling them to back off my voice lets them all know it is enough. It is a proud moment when you see your other dogs correct a pup that has stepped out of line in a good doggy way because it lets you know they know the rules and expect the whole pack to follow them. I am like you and my seniors are not to be disrespected in any way shape or form. The other dogs know the rules but it has been to the point where I have had to pick up a magazine or book and make a loud thud on the table to get everyones attention focused on me....then of course they are all sent to their beds to lay down or crate. The joys of a 4 dog home when the dogs can't even hear the correction unless it's loud.







I wouldn't give it up for the world. 
Thank you for responding as I am coming to turns with my old girl leaving soon and I want to be sure I am prepared for what may happen in the days that follow that day. Although I may never be fully prepared....are we ever....her good days are about even with her bad days lately and since her spine is fusing and her kidneys and liver are not working well I have to keep in mind that there is not much of anything surgically that can be done at this point to help her and that the pain medications they have already warned me will only help for so long.

Sadly we do not know her true age and she could really be anywhere from 12 to 14 years old.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Barker the Elder has survived three other dogs. The first dog was nearly 12 when I got this pushy puppy. I tried real hard to keep the older dog in a position of respect. BTE loved her but did push her around (she was a pushable dog who would have been content to resume only dog status but I had other ideas.) BTE's attitude changed once we left the dog at the crematorium. Although she witnessed the dog's death, she accepted it and was pretty content until we dropped the body off. Soon she made it apparent that SHE wanted another dog. As near as I can figure, she needed someone to boss around.
Enter Barker the Younger. They were good companions and accepted another addition when I added an older male. Unfortunately, he died (HW+ which he wasn't healthy enough to treat) in less than a year. The Barker Sisters went back to their earlier roles. -- BTE as a rather benign dictator.

BTY died this winter. BTE is 14 + and has not demanded a puppy. She seems content with occassional visits with other dogs (next door has two pups, barn has two older smaller dogs.) This time I would like a pup but I don't think it would be fair to either animal. With BTE's increasing feableness and related lack of contenence, house training a pup would be challenging. (There is no point cleaning that rug right now!)

I am not sure this post is any help at all!


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

LOL yes it was helpful as I can see my Ruby in it. When we lost Trooper she was absolutely distraught. She didn't know what to do she had no one to boss around, she had no one to play with. Trooper and Ruby had been together for almost 4 years and Trooper was a quiet dominance? If the going got tough he would push Ruby aside and deal with the problem but other than that he let Ruby boss him around and just looked at her with the "whatever" look. We ended up getting Bear as a furball 3 days after losing Trooper and she was again happy and dominant. 4 and 6 years later...she was not so happy about the puppy additions and I think that she is just tired lately and would have preferred not to have had the latest addition even though she loves the puppy and cleans her face she seems to tired to want to deal with it. But the puppy surprisingly gives her more respect than the boys. Go figure...girls show more respect







. Did the Barker Sisters ever test dominance of the older male or did BYE stay in dominance? It is interesting to me how the different attitudes of dogs react in different situations.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

It's BTE that was the dominate dog. The older male wasn't dominate. He was intact and had a great deal of respect for the Barker Sisters sharing their home. BTY tried to form an alliance with him for a potential coupe but it didn't get anywhere. BTE was rather puzzled with BTY's behavior and they ended up vying a bit for his attention.


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## JazzNScout (Aug 2, 2008)

I'm sorry your old girl is not well. When my Morgan was ill, she would have bouts of dis-ease, and during those bouts, the other two would decide they were going to rally for her bed and her things. Then I'd take Morgan in to get a steroid shot (the only thing that was keeping her going). In about 2 days, she'd puff up like Popeye, and the other two dogs would be backing away like, "errr...uhhh...nevermind. we didn't mean it." I never saw them out and out challenge her. It was as if their respect level took a dive, though. They'd bump into her whereas they wouldn't have dared earlier.
During all of this time, I made sure that she got special treatment. She stayed in a lot with me when the other two were out. I didn't let them run into her, and so on. 
When Morgan passed, jasmine quickly slid into Boss Dawg position. 
I had to do the same when Jasmine got ill. Scout started getting too rough with her, so I had them separated a lot the last six months.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

It helps to hear others are defending the status of their seniors.

My girl is only 8 but she's not a young 8, displastic, arthritic and somedays she looks at me like she wants me to put the puppy away for a while. In the last year, I really see her slowing down. Climbing the stairs is a chore. If she's been on a long walk in the park, I have to help her into the jumpseat.

Otto is fairly respectful of her although he's a pest about grabbing her neck when she walks by. If she's laying down, he'll go over and try to get her to play - which she does when she's in the mood - but she ignores him if she's not in the mood. If he really irritates her, she'll snark at him quick and make him jump back. Clearly still asserting herself.

Still, I see her this summer not bothering with the squirrels or the birds if Otto is already after them. She just looks at it like 'he's got it, I've taught him well' then she goes and lays down. 

It was really hard to watch her in May when he cut her face - it hurts me to see that scar on her beautiful face and know that he did it. It was her fault, she started with him and he was just defending himself. 

Still, it's a constant reminder that she's not the lightening fast crazy chick she used to be. It could see it in her eyes that it really took her down a peg when he did that. He would clean it for her a few times a day and she'd let him. Whatever that means...


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

Yeah I know exactly what everyone is dealing with I guess on the seniors bad days the others do try to challenge the dominance a little more. Ruby has a sharp bark and a mean growl if the others pester her but she has never tried to bite....just tell them off. LOL I also had my younger male injury my senior trying to play rougher than he should and now she also looks at him with a little bit of fear and it did take her down a little.....it only takes an instance for a senior to get her when their feet and body aren't as quick as they used to be.


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## flyinghayden (Oct 7, 2005)

I don't really have that kind of issue. Having all females, and none related whatsoever, might have something to do with it. Perle is the oldest at 9, and Hannah the youngest, and Sable somewhere in there, but of the 3, hannah would be the closest to the alpha, but there is not really a boss status, they all treat each other the same, and I do likewise. 

With Maxie, when I lost Buffy, then Peggy, she was quite neutraul to their death. Although she interacted well with them, she did not really have a best friend relationship with them. I think if Hannah or Sable were to die, it would effect the other, but I am not so sure with Perle.


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