# Seriously, how to socialize your dog to be around children when you have none?



## chelle

This is an issue for us. I have no young children and there are none in my family, other than my nephew, but he's only 18 months and lives several hours away. Result is Bailey is never around any kids.

We go to the city park often and just sit and watch everyone. He does not give a HOOT about a trillion kids running by, walking, on skateboards, on little bikes with noisy training wheels. We've worked up to getting just feet from the trail and no reaction from him on those kids.

Yet, for example, tonight my neighbors must have had their grandchildren over and they were little kids - between 2 - 4 I'd guess, and they were riding trikes and such. They're my only neighbors and they're a good 50 foot away. Yet Bailey saw them and ran right to the yard boundary, on full alert, wanting very much to go over there. He tried. I had to work kind of hard to call him back over. (no fence). He barked at them a couple of times.

So I went and got a leash and we went back over and walked the boundary. Sat down for a few minutes, just let the kids romp around. No reaction from Bailey AT ALL once on leash. Huh? Exactly like he has no reaction at the city park when on leash watching them run all over the place.

What the heck? What a disconnect? Why?

I'd love to hear from those who had to work somehow, some way to get their dogs to be accepting and non-threatening with kids when you don't have any for daily/often exposure. Those of you who do not have that exposure, but whose dogs don't care, don't count.


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## BR870

Sounds like a good reason to have a kid to me... The wife and I practice all the time. 

Sorry OP, can't really help. We have a 3 year old, so our pup gets more than her fill of kids and kid crazies... I would recommend taking them to where the kids are, but you're already doing that. 

Maybe set up a theme park in your backyard, and give away candy... Worked for Michael Jackson. :laugh:


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## Gretchen

Maybe your dog reacted to the neighbor's guests (children) because you were at home, it was protection. Also with my dog, anyone can walk or ride a bike by/past my dog, but she reacts differently when she perceives they are coming directly towards her (a threat).

We are in your situation, no young kids around to socialize with the dog. We don't take risks and do not let children pet our dog. She has a high prey drive - I don't think she knows the difference between a child or a bird or a squirrel. She has many dog and adult friends so I've given up on the kids. Her youngest friend is a 13 year old boy she met at 12 weeks old. He can wrestle her to the ground and our dog won't care. 

Honestly, do you think any parent of a young child would be willing to take a risk with their kid being around a dog of unknown temperament?


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## Emoore

I don't. I don't like being around kids, so how can I hold my dogs to a higher standard than myself? We're all misanthropes together.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

No kids when Daisy was young. She does well w/ kids if they don't run or run and scream because then her prey drive kicks in.Try finding a toddler who doesnt. I have to say if you dont socialize and work on exposure it is really hard when they are older. I took Daisy to puppy play and the lady who owned it had her kids and a neice there. Her niece maybe 4 was crying cause her mom said they had to leave,Daisy licked her face and was gentle,the owner who is a trainer helped me stay calm and not freak Daisy out. Daisy had some other behavioral issues so group classes were out and I could not afford individual training sessions.Daisy is a happy girl but she has missed doing alot of things due to not handling kids well. I guess I just think now socialization,exposure to kids ,loud noises all protect the dog so they are able to handle those unexpected events .


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## chelle

Gretchen said:


> Honestly, do you think any parent of a young child would be willing to take a risk with their kid being around a dog of unknown temperament?


Oh no, of course not. I wouldn't expect that of anyone. 

I hate to give up on the idea of no young kids... keeping him away forever, etc... I'm doing all I can in terms of exposure and I'm flabbergasted at how it is all good and well at the park on leash, or even in my own yard on leash, but other circumstances are no good.

I guess I can't figure out what the set-off is.

We can walk thru Petco, little kids all over the place, nothing. (Of course he's very distracted..) 

I can't believe it is guarding the home just yet. Isn't he too young for that?? Just when do those instincts honestly set in?

Bailey is a really sweet boy. His tail wags so hard it'll knock over a wall.  I just don't "get it."


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## Germanshepherdlova

He is still a puppy so don't give up just yet. I have children but I am going to put my two cents in anyhow. I am willing to bet that at the park, since you say Bailey appears to be comfortable around children there, that he would not bite a child at the park. Kids just love puppies, whenever I take my dog out, especially when he was a puppy kids would just stare at him-when you see the kids staring at him-ask if they'd like to pet him (I have done this with my lab and no parent has ever said no) and sometimes a parent will ask me if it's ok if their child pets my dog-my point is allow children to pet him, as long as you know that he won't bite them. The time is now, when he is older-it may not be possible for him to learn to like kids.


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## RocketDog

Why don't you call a daycare, a small one maybe or a pre-school, (montessori's are private) and ask if you can bring him for "show and tell"? 

I taught a class at our elementary for years with my therapy labrador. Even though I don't have kids there anymore, and we lost the lab last spring and now have Rocket the pup, the teacher in charge of it called me and asked if I'd bring Rocket. I teach them safety issues, how to behave around dogs, especially dogs not their own, and show them how to safely pet and give treats. Even my cats go, walking into the school on their own leash, lol 

That would be a cool idea. I can pm you info if you want.


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## chelle

Germanshepherdlova said:


> He is still a puppy so don't give up just yet. I have children but I am going to put my two cents in anyhow. I am willing to bet that at the park, since you say Bailey appears to be comfortable around children there, that he would not bite a child at the park. Kids just love puppies, whenever I take my dog out, especially when he was a puppy kids would just stare at him-when you see the kids staring at him-ask if they'd like to pet him (I have done this with my lab and no parent has ever said no) and sometimes a parent will ask me if it's ok if their child pets my dog-my point is allow children to pet him, as long as you know that he won't bite them. The time is now, when he is older-it may not be possible for him to learn to like kids.


He does appear to be comfortable, even bored?! (We're often just sitting there. We'll do a little walking work first, etc and then we just sit and watch the world go by. Actually prior to the park visit, we've done some good running, so he's a bit on the tired/mellow side.)

When older kids (age 8+ or so?) want to approach, with parent permission, I give the kid the treat and they come up with the treat and it's just fine. He takes the treats very gently and no problem at all. He would seem to have a height requirement????????? Ie, if they're 8'ish years old, they're likely at least four foot and they are not scary... especially with treats... but god forbid a toddler do the same thing. Now WHY is a TODDLER a scary thing?



RocketDog said:


> Why don't you call a daycare, a small one maybe or a pre-school, (montessori's are private) and ask if you can bring him for "show and tell"?


He isn't ready for such a thing, (or maybe I'm not) but it gives me ideas... maybe I should just go to a daycare and sit in the car while the wee bitty ones come out,,, a starting point, maybe.

Mr Bails has never bitten anything or anyone... but it isn't something I can find out about the hard way.

We really just have to get over this issue. I can't own a dog that I have to worry about when it comes to kids. I'm going to be a grandma sometime in the next few? years. We just can't have this.


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## RocketDog

Well, I meant, mostly for a "petting session", LOL. You're right...maybe just parking out in front, and standing to the side, and letting the parents decide if they want their child to pet him?

Did I miss something about him not liking children? I thought he just hadn't been around many.


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## Germanshepherdlova

A dog going into a room full of preschoolers would have to be a very patient dog. The other day I took my lab with me, and he is great with kids-to pick my daughter up from elementary school and there was this child there who was about 2 years old and she wouldn't stop touching my dog. She was constantly in his face and even my Mr.Patience tried to move away from her a couple times. I finally felt sorry for him and moved us away. A bunch of little kids grabbing on Bailey would probably make him really dislike them.


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## CarrieJ

Emoore said:


> I don't. I don't like being around kids, so how can I hold my dogs to a higher standard than myself? We're all misanthropes together.


Hahahah!!!!! Oh my. I have a kindred spirit.
I do want my dog not be nervous around kids or chase them though. So sometimes I will force myself to go a human park with a playground and spend ten minutes there sitting on a bench with her on a leash.
I start off slow. Ten minutes is a long time to a dog. (and me)
I have weekdays off so that helps while school in session I live near two elementary schools, one middle school, and one high school. All and all the high school kids are the worst behaved.

We used to have a neighbor that would come over with her two year old and we would explain the rules to the child. And about five to seven minutes would be about all he could retain the information and follow the rules and about all Alice could handle without chasing or accidently knocking him over.
So she would go back in the house safe behind the security screen. But she was good with him. 

Toddlers are scary to a dog because they send weird signals. Jerky movements, high pitched and usually toddling....that's just wrong to a dog. I'll let toddlers pet Zoey and she's very good about it. I do not let toddlers pet Alice. She's not a "pet me" dog with unknown humans or toddlers (yep...toddlers haven't developed into humans yet....*ducks rocks thrown at me*)


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## Emoore

CarrieJ said:


> I do not let toddlers pet Alice. She's not a "pet me" dog with unknown humans or toddlers (yep...toddlers haven't developed into humans yet....*ducks rocks thrown at me*)


Yeah, I don't let kids pet Rocky either. He's afraid of them and at 9 years old all the "socialization" in the world isn't going to change that. Kopper actually likes kids for some unfathomable reason. I let them pet him if they want, but the minute they start getting squirrely they're out. I'm not letting my dog get put down because some kid didn't have the sense to keep their hand out of his mouth.


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## BR870

Because Abbie has been raised with a child, she is convinced that ALL children are her friends and wants to play with them all. Of course not all parents want their children playing with an unknown large dog.

Abbie gets so disappointed when she sees a kid and isn't allowed to go meet them...


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## tami97

When I walk Shasta there are a lot of children in our subdivision. They ask if they can pet her and I let them so that she gets used to kids. She is very good, she know to sit and let them pet her. Now she sits before I even ask, she get excited to see them.


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## CarrieJ

And you must consider the child and if the child is living in a dog savvy house. That will make a world of difference.
Take my nephew (he was at the time a preteen and all that entails), he rolled up to my fence on his skateboard when Alice was about 14 months old. Needless to say she freaked out, I asked him not to do that as she wasn't used to kids on skateboards. 
My nephew is from a (insert snicker here) a cat house. My sister doesn't like dogs. His buddy who came with him; lives with Rotties they have three of them. His buddy calmly got off the skate board and avoided eye contact ignored Alice and when she calmed down, put his board on the ground so she could investigate it.
My nephew continued to roll back and forth up to the gate on his board.
Guess which young boy Alice was more receptive to.
My sister's attitude: "Let him get bit."
Um...NO. I don't want my dog to get an underserved bite record and your son to have a serious wound to teach him a lesson on listening to instructions. Do your job and raise your son, don't put my dog in that position.

Sorry, off topic a bit. I do like walking by the schools at lunch recess she's starting to figure out that people that are under four feet tall are nutzo, and no harm comes to her.


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## chelle

CarrieJ said:


> Toddlers are scary to a dog because they send weird signals. Jerky movements, high pitched and usually toddling....that's just wrong to a dog.


Well that's interesting, I hadn't thought about it like that. Their unpredictablilty probably does throw an un-conditioned dog for a loop. Makes sense, anyway.

It's not that I want Bailey to love little teeny kids. I just don't want him to react at all. I want him to look at them with boredom. I have no desire to force him to put up with what a toddler may put him thru - hair pulling, riding, etc and so on. Oh no. That's not "fair" in my mind. 

Looks like we'll be spending some time sitting outside of elementary schools/daycares, etc... Hope no one thinks we're like Chester the Child Molester or anything.


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## Dooney's Mom

I have no kids (thank God) but I have always allowed the neighborhood kids to pet her since i brought her home. 

I do have a 3 year old nephew that we visit with a few times a month, she has always been very gentle when playing tug/ball with him ( i do have to watch her if any kids try to run away... prey drive kicks in) but other than that she has been great with them. Maybe work your way down in age- let teenagers pet him, then maybe preteens, so on and so forth. I would think going to the park or to any outdoor places kids are is also a pretty good idea.


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## CarrieJ

chelle said:


> Well that's interesting, I hadn't thought about it like that. Their unpredictablilty probably does throw an un-conditioned dog for a loop. Makes sense, anyway.
> 
> It's not that I want Bailey to love little teeny kids. I just don't want him to react at all. I want him to look at them with boredom. I have no desire to force him to put up with what a toddler may put him thru - hair pulling, riding, etc and so on. Oh no. That's not "fair" in my mind.
> 
> Looks like we'll be spending some time sitting outside of elementary schools/daycares, etc... Hope no one thinks we're like Chester the Child Molester or anything.


He hee...I doubt it. You aren't going to be there for too long. Walk the dog past schools, hang out in the parks. There will be less paranoia about your intentions that way. 

Dogs are ninety percent or more body language as a form of communication. So consider what your dog is watching and what he's doing. Senior citizens can be both weird in their movements and their smell so dogs will react to that as well.
I got lucky with that as I was a caregiver for my mother and Alice has been around walkers, wheelchairs, etc. Occassionally she'll get a bit interested in an elderly person on a walk, but a good leave it brings her back.


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## doggiedad

i use to go to play grounds and let the kids
pet my pup. my last pup went with me everytime
i dropped off or picked up my kids from day care
so he received a lot of attention from the children and parents.
the dog is have now use to visit a neighbor once a week
when their grand daughter was visiting. my dog is very friendly
with adults, children and other animals. when my dog was a pup
i made sure people came to visit daily sometimes several
times a day. i called on family, friends and neighbors to visit.
i think from all of the visitors stopping by my dog became
friendly with adults and children even though it was more adults visiting.


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## Pepper311

My 2 dogs never ever were around kids till we brought home our daughter. When I was pregnant I started working with my dogs to get them use to kids. Our little Pom was very fearful of kids at first. He is not good with any strangers. Brought him around kids and had them give him treats. Then I held him when a bunch of little kids pet him. He was confused he loved the attention but was unsure. After that I rewarded him. Then he got rewards from the kids like treats. They would throw a stick for him. He soon learned after a few good experiences that kids are fun. He likes kids better then adults now. He is my daughters best friend he is amazing with her now.

Our pit bull never was around kids and was 8 years when I started bring him around kids. He took to them fine but he loves anyone that will throw him a ball or stick. He is ok with kids but really could careless if they are around. My daughter can take anything from the dogs and they don't object. Basically when we were at the beach or park, I would have kids throw the ball for him and that helped a lot. So he learned kids = good times.

Our new pup is a GSD rescue and still a pup she is 6 months and Loves kids. She loves to run with our 3 year old and explore with her. They are peas in a pod. 

The fact that my daughter gives them treats and plays with them helps the dogs except her and enjoy kids. Our little dog Indy the Pom mix really loves kids now because he knows they are messy and that means food falls. 

Make kids fun for your dogs and they will except them. Also make sure the kids your dogs are around are also well trained. I work with both my dogs and my kid you have to train them both. Key to having dogs with kids is train them both never leave them unattended together.


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## Rexy

A good GSD doesn't need socialisation with anyone, they adapt to what ever situation faces them. However GSD's who retreat or show aggressive repsonses towards kids is a nerve problem in the dog and a dog I would never allow around kids unrestrained and unmuzzled. You only need to socialise GSD's of poor genetics, it's the hardness and courage in the breed that stands out above the rest providing the temprament stability of a good Shepherd.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Rexy said:


> *A good GSD doesn't need socialisation with anyone*, they adapt to what ever situation faces them. However GSD's who retreat or show aggressive repsonses towards kids is a nerve problem in the dog and a dog I would never allow around kids unrestrained and unmuzzled. *You only need to socialise GSD's of poor genetics*, it's the hardness and courage in the breed that stands out above the rest providing the temprament stability of a good Shepherd.


I strongly disagree with this statement, and I have never heard anyone make such a statement-EVER. Everybody knows that GSD's need to be socialized! Well, apparently not everyone…..


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## Jax08

And how would you know the dog has "poor genetics" before it's to late? Only socializing GSD's of "poor genetics" is easily proven wrong. There are dogs out there with great genetics that for some reason don't care for children or other animals. While I agree that a sound GSD should recover and know a threat that doesn't mean they do not need to be socialized and introduced to a variety of people and situations.

OP- my dog is a pound puppy with unknown "genetics" who hides from fly swatters, jumps at the sound of a nail gun and is reactive to other dogs. However, my GSD of obviously poor genetics is stellar around kids and she's never really been socialized with them. She instinctively is very gentle around children. There was a little boy in TSC who was so excited and jumping up and down in front of her. My poor girl looked like a bobble head dog trying to keep up with him. She finally saw her chance and reached out to lick him from chin to forehead. 

Do any of your friends have children? Did I read in one of your posts that you are a teacher?


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I strongly disagree with this statement, and I have never heard anyone make such a statement-EVER. Everybody knows that GSD's need to be socialized! Well, apparently not everyone…..


Eh, well, yes and no. A solid-nerved dog is a solid-nerved dog, whether it's spent the first six months of its life on a chain or whether it had a doting owner who socialized it religiously. Similarly, a nervy dog will always be a nervy dog, no matter how much socializing you do. You can't make a shy, nervous dog into a rock-solid one with socialization, and you'd have to seriously brutalize a solid-nerved dog to make him shy and nervous. 

That said, socialization is still something that should be done. It teaches dogs how to behave in certain situations, and can certainly make a nervous dog fear certain situations less, or help make a borderline dog more stable. Even the best-nerved dog still needs to learn the appropriate way to behave around kids.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Common Causes of Aggressive Behavior in German Shepherds
There are some situations in which aggression is more likely to surface. These include:

Suspicion and wariness is a hardwired character trait in guard dogs like the German Shepherd. Your Shepherd may well be intensely suspicious of people approaching him when he's eating, which will be expressed through aggressive behavior.
*Stranger-based aggression: again, this stems back to the breed's history as guard dogs. Poorly socialized German Shepherds can react with hysterical aggression* at the sight of any stranger on their property.
Another manifestation of aggression is fear aggression. Instead of the aggressive behavior being based upon a sense of dominance and threat-eradication, poorly socialized German Shepherds can be so excessively shy and anxious around strangers that they snarl and bite out of a sense of fear, rather than true dominance.

Source:
German Shepherd Training | Shepherd Aggression

So it is poorly bred GSD's or poorly socialized? I am a bit confused.


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## Emoore

Germanshepherdlova said:


> So it is poorly bred GSD's or poorly socialized? I am a bit confused.


Yes.  As an example, my Rocky has been very well socialized since I brought him home as a puppy. But I will never be able to trust him around kids because of his nerves. Kopper's got great nerve and the only thing I worry about with him and kids is that he might get over-enthusiastic and accidentally knock them down. Socialization can teach a dog what's normal and what's not normal, it can teach them rules for social interaction with kids and old people, people in wheelchairs, etc, but it will never change a dog's basic nerves.

I have to say I don't much care for the link you posted. It reads like somebody read a guide book to all different kinds of dogs and then decided to do a website training those different types of dogs. Clicking through it, the different articles don't read like they were written by somebody with a deep understanding of that specific breed.


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## Germanshepherdlova

Emoore said:


> Yes.  As an example, my Rocky has been very well socialized since I brought him home as a puppy. But I will never be able to trust him around kids because of his nerves. Kopper's got great nerve and the only thing I worry about with him and kids is that he might get over-enthusiastic and accidentally knock them down. Socialization can teach a dog what's normal and what's not normal, it can teach them rules for social interaction with kids and old people, people in wheelchairs, etc, but it will never change a dog's basic nerves.
> 
> I have to say I don't much care for the link you posted. It reads like somebody read a guide book to all different kinds of dogs and then decided to do a website training those different types of dogs. Clicking through it, the different articles don't read like they were written by somebody with a deep understanding of that specific breed.


I see. I was thinking about a dog with good nerves who was locked in a house most of his life and was never allowed around different people. If he was kept that way for a couple years, do you think that good nerves or not, his natural suspicion that is characteristic in a GSD would find things suspicious that shouldn't be due to a lack of being socialized?


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## RocketDog

I thought German Shepherds were originally herding dogs, not "guard" dogs?


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## Pepper311

RocketDog said:


> I thought German Shepherds were originally herding dogs, not "guard" dogs?


Yup originally they where for herding but they like most herding dogs will protect their herd from predators. Most herding breeds are protective of their animals and family. 

All dogs just like kids need to be socialized. You can't keep a dog locked up all it's life then let it out and expect it to be perfect. Socializing is all just part of life and learning everyone need it.


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## Good_Karma

Ever since Niko was a very young puppy, he has been fearful of kids. This is in spite of his breeder having a four year old son who payed with and held the puppies until we picked Niko up at eight weeks old. But we don't have kids, and the only kids in the family that we see are my SIL's kids. We took the dogs to a holiday dinner at my MIL's house and Niko spent most of the day barking at the kids every time they moved. He was about four or five months old. After that we didn't expose him to kids again for a couple months, but again every time the little girl spoke, Niko would bark. Correcting him didn't help. Treats didn't help.

After we started working with a trainer this year, I began taking him to school playgrounds and letting him see the kids from a distance. I did the best I could to keep him under threshold, and I never really got very far in our progress. Since playgrounds usually have fences around them, we made sure we just always kept a barrier between us. I have pretty much resigned myself to not ever letting kids be around my dogs. It is just one aspect of socializing that I couldn't do right without much more work and the willingness of parents to lend me their kids (who are unpredictable!!). Not worth the risks involved.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

I dont know whether its genetics or enviroment or a combination. Both my dogs do not have good nerves. Totally different dogs but same root cause.nerves. When I listen to Wolfstraum.Carmspack,AltaTollhouse or some of the other wl breeders ,they definitely breed for temperment but i cant imagine them letting someone have a puppy who was not going to train.There was a description by the founder of the breed of Horand ,who i think mighthave been the first SV register. He stated he was a great worker and when not working a rascal. Von Stephanwitz blamed horand's rowdiness on his lack of consistent training . Horand could work,loved kids but often got into trouble. Sounds as if a dog w/ good nerves isnt exposed he/she might jump on the kid but would not react aggressively or be scared or spooked. A fearful reaction would not be part of their ways of reacting.So maybe goodnerved dogs need consistent training that includes varied experiences that allow a dog to know which options to chose.I have no knowledge just live w/ a GSD w/ issues. I could have this completely wrong.


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## chelle

Pepper311 said:


> All dogs just like kids need to be socialized. *You can't keep a dog locked up all it's life then let it out and expect it to be perfect.* Socializing is all just part of life and learning everyone need it.


I'm hardly keeping my boy locked up and letting him out to expect perfection!?!  Doesn't sound like anyone is doing that. But I do see a recurring issue with exposure to kids - it's tough if you don't have any!

I hate to "give up" on this, and we will do more socialization work focusing on kids, but I may have to just accept having him around wee little ones isn't going to be a part of his life. We had a small success just today - a four foot kid and him made buddies - even without treats! One step at a time, I guess!


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## Emoore

chelle said:


> I'm hardly keeping my boy locked up and letting him out to expect perfection!?!  Doesn't sound like anyone is doing that. But I do see a recurring issue with exposure to kids - it's tough if you don't have any!


I don't think Pepper was referring to "you" specifically, I think it was a generalized "you" referring to our nature-vs-nurture discussion.


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## CarrieJ

I'm always leery of treating when in a nervous situation. If my dog is uneasy around strangers...I'm not going to have them treat her in that state. Like at the vet, I don't mind her getting a reward/treat/cookie or loves...but she has to be calm and relaxed first. 


That being said:
Chelle, 


> I hate to "give up" on this, and we will do more socialization work focusing on kids, but I may have to just accept having him around wee little ones isn't going to be a part of his life. *We had a small success just today - a four foot kid and him made buddies - even without treats!* One step at a time, I guess!


Good job!
You mean you aren't going to give birth to socialize your dog to children? 
What kind of dog owner are you?
(just kidding folks!---that's ironic humor...it happens):laugh:


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## Rexy

I have had my fair share of GSD's of poor temperament and nerve issues and I have had some good ones. Territorial aggression around the yard in the car is the only type of aggression I have found that a good dog will display otherwise in a passive environment, they simply don't care about their surroundings, no fear, no excitement and with a trained dog, with the same handler focus in the middle of a rock concert as the dog would display in the back yard. 

A good GSD isn't dog aggressive, doesn't bark and lunge at people on leash, they are alert and watchful, aloof and unfriendly, but stable and non reactive unless physically provoked and also have fast recovery from unpleasant experiences.

If a GSD acts in guarding and protective behaviour other than territorial guarding without protection training and does so in a passive environment, it's not a good Shepherd, it's more a fear biter.


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## chelle

Rexy said:


> I have had my fair share of GSD's of poor temperament and nerve issues and I have had some good ones. *Territorial aggression around the yard in the car is the only type of aggression I have found that a good dog will display* otherwise in a passive environment, they simply don't care about their surroundings, no fear, no excitement and with a trained dog, with the same handler focus in the middle of a rock concert *as the dog would display in the back yard*.
> 
> A good GSD isn't dog aggressive, doesn't bark and lunge at people on leash, they are alert and watchful, aloof and unfriendly, but stable and non reactive unless physically provoked and also have fast recovery from unpleasant experiences.
> 
> If a GSD acts in guarding and protective behaviour other than territorial guarding without protection training and does so in a passive environment, it's not a good Shepherd, it's more a fear biter.


Well okay thanks for that contribution, but what does it have to do with the kid part? Are you saying all the people with issues with kids have weak nerved dogs and are fear biters? 

Also, seems maybe you've contradicted yourself in the first paragraph? You say first that territorial aggression around the yard/car is ok (for a good dog)... yet later in the same paragraph you say the dog would behave the same at a rock concert as the (same) back yard? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Nothing on this topic has talked about lunging, dog-aggressiveness, etc. Those aren't my issues at this time.


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## Pepper311

Emoore said:


> I don't think Pepper was referring to "you" specifically, I think it was a generalized "you" referring to our nature-vs-nurture discussion.


Thanks that is what I ment.


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## Pepper311

chelle said:


> This is an issue for us. I have no young children and there are none in my family, other than my nephew, but he's only 18 months and lives several hours away. Result is Bailey is never around any kids.
> 
> We go to the city park often and just sit and watch everyone. He does not give a HOOT about a trillion kids running by, walking, on skateboards, on little bikes with noisy training wheels. We've worked up to getting just feet from the trail and no reaction from him on those kids.
> 
> Yet, for example, tonight my neighbors must have had their grandchildren over and they were little kids - between 2 - 4 I'd guess, and they were riding trikes and such. They're my only neighbors and they're a good 50 foot away. Yet Bailey saw them and ran right to the yard boundary, on full alert, wanting very much to go over there. He tried. I had to work kind of hard to call him back over. (no fence). He barked at them a couple of times.
> 
> So I went and got a leash and we went back over and walked the boundary. Sat down for a few minutes, just let the kids romp around. No reaction from Bailey AT ALL once on leash. Huh? Exactly like he has no reaction at the city park when on leash watching them run all over the place.
> 
> What the heck? What a disconnect? Why?
> 
> I'd love to hear from those who had to work somehow, some way to get their dogs to be accepting and non-threatening with kids when you don't have any for daily/often exposure. Those of you who do not have that exposure, but whose dogs don't care, don't count.


This all sounds normal to me. My dogs bark at people on the other side of the fence big or small, till I call them off. Your dog was in her home and these weird little people were near her property. I would bark too. What kind of bark was it? Was it the "back off this is my land" bark, Or the "hey hey I want to play" bark, Was it the "hey hey there is something going on" bark, Or what? 

The leash on makes your dog go into a kind of training mode. Do you work with and train your dog off leash in different settings? Sometimes dogs get so use to being trained on leash, they don't think they need to listen when off leash. Do you think you could let your dog meet kids off leash? 

If when you are out in public and your dog acts fine around strange kids you are doing pretty good. I would not worry too much. Try letting kids pet your dog or throw a toy will help the dog see kids as fun and good.


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## Gracie's My Girl

Our puppy had issues with small children as well. Simply seeing a little kid would set her off barking! I definitely believe it is because they are small, fast moving, and typically loud/shrill. 

At this point, we do not have any small children in the house. Because I wanted our dog to be comfortable with kids, I tried to find creative ways to socialize her to them. We ended up going to lots of football games at the elementary school. There were lots of kids of all ages. At first, the kids would bother her and she would bark her head off. I finally reached the point where I just let her "bark it out". She had to realize that she was the only one that saw kids as a problem. I was relaxed. The kids were relaxed. Believe it or not, it only took a couple times before she realized that they weren't going to hurt her and she got over it. 

I know that our solution probably wasn't the best one available, but it worked for us. Currently, she is almost six months old and could care less about going off on kids of any size. The key for us was daily socialization around kids, being relaxed and helping her to realize that kids are nothing to be afraid of.

Also, training is essential. When I could see that Gracie had focused in on a child and was getting ready to bark...I would redirect her attention back to me by telling her to watch me and giving her a treat when she did. My goal was to be the most interesting thing for that dog in that moment and to shift her focus. Sometimes, I had to get pretty goofy to grab her attention!

Personally, I would focus on getting your dog around small children on a daily basis if possible. If there is a school near you that hosts sports games, I would go during those games. They are big family events and all kinds of kids are there. Socialize. Train. Relax.

However, at the end of the day, I have to remind myself that dogs are going to act like dogs. I am going to do my part to socialize them, but I am also going to realize that it isn't the end of the world if they bark at what they don't know. I can imagine that I too would react nervously if I saw someone strange in my yard.

Best of luck to you!


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## chelle

Pepper311 said:


> This all sounds normal to me. My dogs bark at people on the other side of the fence big or small, till I call them off. Your dog was in her home and these weird little people were near her property. I would bark too. What kind of bark was it? Was it the "back off this is my land" bark, Or the "hey hey I want to play" bark, Was it the "hey hey there is something going on" bark, Or what?
> 
> The leash on makes your dog go into a kind of training mode. Do you work with and train your dog off leash in different settings? Sometimes dogs get so use to being trained on leash, they don't think they need to listen when off leash. Do you think you could let your dog meet kids off leash?
> 
> If when you are out in public and your dog acts fine around strange kids you are doing pretty good. I would not worry too much. Try letting kids pet your dog or throw a toy will help the dog see kids as fun and good.


Pepper, I'm sorry about quoting you earlier about not letting a dog out of a room all its life or whatever that was... Somehow I'd managed to not see a *bunch* of the prior posts and it seemed to come out of left field, but it didn't. Duh on my part, sorry!

Not sure how to interpret the bark.. kinda like, I see you over there.. no hackles up or anything, no growling. Excited, maybe? But not like oh gee I wanna play. Unsure, apprehensive.

He's rarely on leash at home and he wasn't when he barked at them. After the barking, I did put him on leash and we sat in the yard together watching them. He did not bark at all then. I almost wanted him to, so I could play the LAT game, or something, but he didn't. Actually he laid down. 

He's never had off-leash contact with any kids. The only kid contact we have it going to the city park, petco, etc, those kinds of things where he must be leashed. I don't have any friends with small kids - they're all teenage or grown.



Gracie's My Girl said:


> ....Personally, I would focus on getting your dog around small children on a daily basis if possible. If there is a school near you that hosts sports games, I would go during those games. They are big family events and all kinds of kids are there. Socialize. Train. Relax.
> 
> However, at the end of the day, I have to remind myself that dogs are going to act like dogs. I am going to do my part to socialize them, but I am also going to realize that it isn't the end of the world if they bark at what they don't know. I can imagine that I too would react nervously if I saw someone strange in my yard.
> 
> Best of luck to you!


Thanks. Doing such on a daily basis isn't possible...  but we can do more and we'll keep working.


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## billsharp

Chelle, I sympathize. We're going through the same thing with Liesl. She's 9 mths old and a rescue, so we don't know anything about her first 2 months of life. I am inferring that she didn't have much contact with kids, or did but it was vaguely unpleasant, because she is afraid of kids and strange adults. It may be that she has bad nerves, but not much else frightens her. She is wary of some new things but once she sniffs them and sees that they don't frighten me she is ok.

I think your desire to acclimate your dog to children is a good one, and you should continue. I have read a LOT on this because of the dangers of doing it wrong and either setting the dog back or worse causing it to snap at a child. 

I have been taking Liesl every morning to a local elem school where we sit about 10 feet off of the sidewalk. All the kids and parents, bikes, strollers, and other dogs come down that sidewalk. She is nervous about it, but is very alert and observant. It is like she is interested and wants to engage, but is still wary. I bring lots of treats and treat her when she does something good like remain in her sit without skulking away from a scooter. Some of the kids look forward to seeing her every morning and coming over to feed her. Unfortunately, that is a lot of intimate contact for her and although she has allowed it well and even shook hands with them in the past weeks, she has just begun to try to escape and cower under my legs. This tells me that it is too much stimulation and I have to cut back to get it back into her comfort zone. 

She has never been aggressive, as she really has a sweet and fun-loving disposition, but I don't want to press her too hard and force her to feel she needs to protect herself. Of course, I love kids and have the patience to deal with them at the same time as the dog. I could see that being a problem if your dog picks up on disdain for them on your part. I'm getting better results now going to the park in the afternoon, where kids are playing and will approach singly or in small groups--those are much better tolerated by Liesl.

Since you anticipate grandmahood in a few years I would encourage you to keep trying to socialize your dog with kids, and suggest trying to find solos or small groups where you can more easily control what happens.


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## Pepper311

Your dog does not sound like he would be danger to kids. So I would not worry to much honestly. My dogs were never around kids till we knew we were going to have one. They adjusted fine and are great with her and her friend. It took time and training for both dogs and kid. 

"Not sure how to interpret the bark.. kinda like, I see you over there.. no hackles up or anything, no growling. Excited, maybe? But not like oh gee I wanna play. Unsure, apprehensive" 

So an excited but unsure bark. That makes sence. He sees the kids playing and wants to play but at the same time they are strangers. 

Just keep doing what you are doing. Work on letting he know kids are fun. Letting kids throw a ball or toy for a dog can make a world of difference. It's fun for all.


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## LaRen616

I do not have children.

Both of my dogs have been exposed to children since they were puppies. I have 2 nephews and 1 neice ages 11, 6 & 4. The dogs just saw them on tuesday. 

I also bring them around my mom's hair salon and there are usually kids there.

I actually baby sat 8 kids about a month ago and brought my puppy with me, the kids and her did great with each other.


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## chelle

As I've read these responses, I've been thinking more and more about this. 

Could one single, isolated incident with a child when a dog is very young make an impression strong enough to influence behavior now?

I remember on our very first camping trip when Bailey was quite young yet (11-12 weeks), one of my friend's granddaughters, about 2 yrs old or so, just kept pestering him. Not the really ornery stuff - no hair pulling, riding, etc, just pestering. Trying to pet, get in his face, put her hands on him. At first I was trying to let this happen because she wasn't doing anything that would hurt him one bit, but Bailey wasn't cool with it. You could just tell he wasn't happy, so I was trying to tell the baby's mama, who was across the campsite, to hey, come get this little girl, this isn't working out. I wasn't getting any help to get her away and was trying to control her and him. He got more and more agitated and he eventually went all the way under the camper to escape her. Before I knew it, she was going underneath after him! I plucked her little behind out of there very quickly, but not before he'd growled a rather nasty sounding growl (for a pup) and yipped. At first I thought he'd bitten her. She didn't cry, but was surprised and I didn't find any marks on her, so I don't think he bit, but he was definitely over his threshhold.

In hindsight, I shouldn't have let it go as long as it did. The child's mom was busy but she should've been paying attention. My friend was in her own camper or somewhere, so she didn't see it all. We camp with them and their family all the time, so I'm often playing with the little girl. She is a sweet girl, but not well-versed around dogs. 

Anyway, after this I told everyone there could be no further interaction of Bailey and the little girl. She tried a couple more times, but I absolutely told her NO. No further issues on that front... but now I wonder... considering Bailey's fear/apprehension/whatever is by far strongest towards the littler ones (as in the age/size of the two year old), could that event have impressed enough to contribute to our issue now? Maybe I'm reading too much into it?


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## PaddyD

We will soon have our first grandchild so I have been taking Abby to the kids play area in the park where we go daily. We sit outside the fence and watch the rug rats run around screaming and playing on the chutes and swings, etc. Occasionally kids will be coming and going and will want to pet the doggie. She is fine with that no matter the size of the child. She finds it all very interesting sometimes and is bored with it at other times. When she was a pup she was shy of smaller children for the reasons stated above: they move erratically .... but she outgrew her shyness.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> When I listen to Wolfstraum.Carmspack,AltaTollhouse or some of the other wl breeders ,they definitely breed for temperment but *i cant imagine them letting someone have a puppy who was not going to train*.


Not train at all? I can't imagine anyone having a GSD and not training it at all, and most breeders are going to expect you do to at least some basic training - it's not realistic to expect a well behaved dog without putting some time and effort into it. It was actually in Halo's contract that I enroll her in some OB classes, but I was planning to anyway. She's not even 3 years old and has already in her 8th class!


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## Lauri & The Gang

chelle said:


> As I've read these responses, I've been thinking more and more about this.
> 
> Could one single, isolated incident with a child when a dog is very young make an impression strong enough to influence behavior now?


Yes.



> Bailey was quite young yet (11-12 weeks), one of my friend's granddaughters, about 2 yrs old or so, just kept pestering him ... but Bailey wasn't cool with it. You could just tell he wasn't happy,


And that is where the interaction should have stopped. If ANYTHING makes your puppy uncomfortable you need to remove that 'thing' immediately.

Puppy go through periods of development where a single bad incident can have long lasting (if not permanent) affects.



> No further issues on that front... but now I wonder... considering Bailey's fear/apprehension/whatever is by far strongest towards the littler ones (as in the age/size of the two year old), could that event have impressed enough to contribute to our issue now? Maybe I'm reading too much into it?


Yes it could and no you are not reading too much into it.

I would start working with him around slightly bigger kids (4-6 age) and slowly work your way down to the youngsters.


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## TankGrrl66

Go to your nearest elementary school and walk your dog by (but not too close) to the play yard when the kids are out in recess. Try to find out when recess is. Do not go in the late afternoon when they are all out...that would be way too much! 

Or sit somewhere in general proximity that doesn't turn into 'ooooooooooooooo a puppeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!' from the kids.

I am lucky enough to have kids in my family and to live close to a school. There is a kindergarten yard lined with a chain link fence...we work on obedience and just being relaxed in proximity to the kids. 

Eventually, if this can work, you can gradually move closer...even getting close enough to make the kids rush over like I did. She did great, and I was really proud. 

Other ideas would be a daycare, sunday school, ???


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## chelle

Lauri & The Gang said:


> And that is where the interaction should have stopped. If ANYTHING makes your puppy uncomfortable you need to remove that 'thing' immediately.
> 
> Puppy go through periods of development where a single bad incident can have long lasting (if not permanent) affects.
> 
> Yes it could and no you are not reading too much into it.
> 
> I would start working with him around slightly bigger kids (4-6 age) and slowly work your way down to the youngsters.


Sigh. Ok. I *deeply* regret not shutting that down far earlier.


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