# Males are all afraid of my female



## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

First time breeding my female. Is it normal for males to be afraid of females during mating?

This is my second attempt at breeding my female, the first time 6 months ago, my dog got aggressive and attacked the male stud I had selected, he backed off and was traumatised after. This time round, I picked out a few more males from my dog club for her to mate with. All of them suffered the same fate and backed off. So far there is only one male she is receptive to but I don't want her to breed with that dog because it has bad hips.

I've never seen her so aggressive to other dogs before. Is this normal? I've also heard, that males might refuse to mate because of low sex drive too.

Thoughts on this?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Are you sure the female is ready to breed? Is she at the right time in her heat cycle? They can be pretty darn nasty if they are not ready yet. 

How is she attacking the males? If she tends to be aggressive she should be held and muzzled for the safety of the males. If she is so aggressive that even an experienced male with a high libido won't breed her, I would accept that nature is trying to tell you something and give up on having puppies from this female.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, what do you mean by 'traumatized'. Did he back off and leave her alone or he no longer dared to breed any other female? Was this after penetration? If yes, it could be an anatomical issue in her body. If you need to muzzle her for breeding, for me, that would be disrespecting and actually raping the poor dog. If you have a sound male and a sound female, they communicate without attacking or injuring each other and the male is respectful of her when she tells him "NO!". If either one shows off-the-chart aggression I would not want a pup out of that combination, no matter the pedigree, beauty or titles of it's parents.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Just use AI and it isn't an issue.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Side by side AI. Don't muzzle and hold- that could seriously injure any and all parties involved. If the female is otherwise fit for breeding, I'd go with AI.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Dog can't be bred naturally so just AI and pass on the issue to the next generation. AHHHHHHH AI has its place, but it should not be used because a bitch is too nasty or the male lacks drive to breed. 

Holding and muzzling is pretty common for most breedings for experienced breeders. Even a cooperative bitch can get snarky at times and no reason to risk the male getting hurt if she snaps at him or moves once tied. 

A good point was made about how the female may have a structural issue making breeding painful for her. Have you had her examined to make sure she has no strictures?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

If I had a female and I wanted to breed her but she was too aggressive with the male. I would definitely use AI. No sense risking injury to either animal. My female doesn't want any males within 2 feet or her throughout her whole cycle. She would have to be an AI candidate.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I saw a mother at my vet who had just had a c section done. Not GSD, larger breed. I asked if there were complications with the delivery...why did they do c section.

They said live births are too risky with this breed. We just deliver via c section every time.

Is that the norm? I never bred a goat again if she had to have a c section. I wanted animals who could successfully do their thing the way nature intended.

I would save her with a c section don't get me wrong, but I had 2 that adopted out to pet homes after that.

Do ppl often do elective c sections on GSDs?


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

lhczth said:


> Holding and muzzling is pretty common for most breedings for experienced breeders. Even a cooperative bitch can get snarky at times and no reason to risk the male getting hurt if she snaps at him or moves once tied.


Paska S., well known WL, reportedly died due to a broken pen*s at the prime of his life. So males can get really seriously hurt.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I saw a mother at my vet who had just had a c section done. Not GSD, larger breed. I asked if there were complications with the delivery...why did they do c section.
> 
> They said live births are too risky with this breed. We just deliver via c section every time.
> 
> ...


I know C-sections are common in bulldogs, and I know some boxer breeders that do it also.

Me personally I have one rule, well I guess 2 technically. They must be able to breed and whelp naturally. 

I have a nice looking bi-blue sheltie that I was supposed to breed to one of her breeders stud dogs, we could not get a tie at all. After we had the vet examine her it was found that she had a vaginal stricture, and a narrow vaginal opening. We was told AI was our best bet at getting a litter, but if we go that route more than likely she would need a C-section. So it was decided by both the breeder and I that we would not be breeding her, we didn't want to take the chance of possibly passing those types of problems on to a next generation


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Why try to breed to weaker males in the first place? Why not breed to a more suitable male?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Why try to breed to weaker males in the first place? Why not breed to a more suitable male?


There is merit to this. I don't breed but my girls are intact and they are very picky and choosy who they flirt with when fertile and any other males will be run off by them.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't like my female's choices... she would make husky-nois, given the opportunity. I will not muzzle and hold. Side by side AI reduces stress for all involved. I've heard horror stories of the female rolling while tied- that can injure a male severely. 

To each their own, but it's pretty un-natural to ask a bitch to just accept some random male, and many dominant females won't readily do so. Sometimes the male will win her over, but it can take time. I would not breed a female who had trouble delivering or was a bad mother, but if she is breeding quality, and just isn't into accepting a selected male who is also breeding quality- and especially if he's successfully sired litters in the past- I'd do side by side AI.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Muskeg said:


> Side by side AI reduces stress for all involved..


  :wink2:

Turn out any mutt and they breed successfully and have large litters. I wonder where it ends if we cannot have them breed naturally anymore.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Are you sure the female is ready to breed? Is she at the right time in her heat cycle? They can be pretty darn nasty if they are not ready yet.
> 
> How is she attacking the males? If she tends to be aggressive she should be held and muzzled for the safety of the males. If she is so aggressive that even an experienced male with a high libido won't breed her, I would accept that nature is trying to tell you something and give up on having puppies from this female.


That could be a possibility. But it is hard to know with my bitch, she bleeds for an entire month so I try to leave it as late as possible. First time I tried, her blood had cleared, then she attacked the male. When she went home, her blood turned bright red again, so I put that down as not ready. Then I had to wait another whole week for her bleeding to clear to make sure she was totally ready, and she attacked two other males. She was receptive to only one other male, but I am not gonna take him because he has bad hips.

They were all muzzled so they can't bite, but my bitch will growl and try to claw and dominate the other males even though she is smaller.


wolfy dog said:


> OP, what do you mean by 'traumatized'. Did he back off and leave her alone or he no longer dared to breed any other female? Was this after penetration? If yes, it could be an anatomical issue in her body. If you need to muzzle her for breeding, for me, that would be disrespecting and actually raping the poor dog. If you have a sound male and a sound female, they communicate without attacking or injuring each other and the male is respectful of her when she tells him "NO!". If either one shows off-the-chart aggression I would not want a pup out of that combination, no matter the pedigree, beauty or titles of it's parents.


Her health check turned out fine. The dog was traumatised in that it would avoid my female. Prior to mating, that male would always act aggressive or dominant to my female and she's usually submissive to larger dogs. After the attempt at mating, it was total avoidance.


cloudpump said:


> Why try to breed to weaker males in the first place? Why not breed to a more suitable male?


Wouldn't have known they were all weak. The males I tried with were all IPO3 titled, really impressive in protection, from good working lines and all health checks passed. Plus I like my female. IPO3 titled, lots of speed and defensive aggression.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

You need to be running progesterone tests plus have her examined by a vet that specializes or at least is well educated in canine reproduction. You are probably missing her peak times so she is not wanting to breed. I have a female that was only receptive for a few days and rest of the time the males really knew she wasn't ready and even the slightest growl they would back off. 

Unless a female is super slutty, it is usually best to hold them so they don't hurt the males. Of course if she isn't ready then that would explain why she is being such a bitch.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Of course things can happen with natural breedings, but do we just accept dogs that lack the natural desire to breed because of the rare case that something might happen? What are we also losing in the process? 

BTW, I have no problem with AI breedings (I just did one). I just don't believe they should be used with dogs that can't breed otherwise.


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## JessicaR (Oct 25, 2016)

lhczth said:


> Unless a female is super slutty, it is usually best to hold them so they don't hurt the males. Of course if she isn't ready then that would explain why she is being such a bitch.


I laughed so hard at that! That is my Belle, no matter where she was in her cycle she would stand and flag for the male When I took her to be bred for the first, the breeder had me bring her as soon as she went into heat so she could get used to the house. As soon as she met the male (same day) she was pawing at him and sticking her butt in his face :laugh2: Of course being an experienced stud he didn't want anything to do with her because it wasn't time.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It depends. If the stud is titled and had natural breedings with great pups in the past, but for some reason the female doesn't take to him, why not side by side AI? 

If the female will happily breed, just not with the titled, proven stud of choice in one scenario, why not AI?

Unnatural, I suppose. But it's so much less stressful than muzzling, and holding. But, each breeder makes his or her own decisions on that. Muzzling and holding is also "going against nature" and I see that very often with both GSD and malinois. Particularly with strong working line dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I really have problem with males that are not strong in breeding drive. I don’t care how pretty he is, or great his hips, or red his color, or whatever, if he is traumatized by attempting to breed female, I would never breed the dog. Drives that are too weak for their functions are disqualifing faults to me.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

lhczth said:


> You need to be running progesterone tests plus have her examined by a vet that specializes or at least is well educated in canine reproduction. You are probably missing her peak times so she is not wanting to breed. I have a female that was only receptive for a few days and rest of the time the males really knew she wasn't ready and even the slightest growl they would back off.
> 
> Unless a female is super slutty, it is usually best to hold them so they don't hurt the males. Of course if she isn't ready then that would explain why she is being such a bitch.


Thats a problem here. For a first world country, veterinary medicine here is awfully third world. I walked to the nearest vet and asked for a progesterone test and they didn't have one. What they suggested was taking a blood test which would give similar results as the progesterone test in TWO WEEKS. I also called a vet friend of mine for a recommendation for a AI specialist and he said that there isn't a single AI specialist in this country who has done so for dogs, only horses.

So, all I got are people in my club who have bred their dogs before and are experienced. But to be scientifically accurate, we're simply lacking in that department.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Do any of your breeder friends know how to do cystology (sp?) by looking at a swab of her discharge under a microscope? That might give you a better idea of what is going on at least in her heat cycle. As far as an examination, most vets should be able to do some type of physical exam to check for strictures. They might even be able to do the above (checking her discharge) if you bring in some good information about how and what to look for.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Cytologic Changes Through the Canine Estrous Cycle

This article has some photos.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Ok, this could be useful. I do have a degree in biology and a light microscope at home. Now this is something I can research for and maybe observe during her next heat cycle. Thanks a lot


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

nezzz said:


> I also called a vet friend of mine for a recommendation for a AI specialist and he said that there isn't a single AI specialist in this country who has done so for dogs, only horses.


What country are you in? You can edit your profile to include that information.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, is it possible that she doesn't want to mate with a dog she doesn't know? Could she meet the male a few times outside her estrus cycle, given that he is not a Weinstein and not push her when she isn't in heat?


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, is it possible that she doesn't want to mate with a dog she doesn't know? Could she meet the male a few times outside her estrus cycle, given that he is not a Weinstein and not push her when she isn't in heat?


The dogs meet at least once a week when we have club training. They're all crated or kenneled next to one another at our club's grounds. Do they have to be let loose and interact with one another?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Depending on the female, letting her loose with the male when she is not ready to breed or isn't in heat could result in a fight. This is not something I would recommend unless the female is normally very social with strange dogs.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

nezzz said:


> The dogs meet at least once a week when we have club training. They're all crated or kenneled next to one another at our club's grounds. Do they have to be let loose and interact with one another?


If this is male you really like to breed with her, it would require careful intros in the non-estrus period as if he would have to live with her. By no means was I thinking of 'just turning them loose with each other."


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

lhczth said:


> Depending on the female, letting her loose with the male when she is not ready to breed or isn't in heat could result in a fight. This is not something I would recommend unless the female is normally very social with strange dogs.


They aren't exactly strange dogs, and meet each other at least once a week. 

My bitch is generally a really calm dog during training. We use her to socialise new pups and dogs that are reactive.
The males are generally ok too, two of them I'm interested in are alphas and will fight to kill one another, but the other two I am also looking at have calmer temperaments towards other dogs.


wolfy dog said:


> If this is male you really like to breed with her, it would require careful intros in the non-estrus period as if he would have to live with her. By no means was I thinking of 'just turning them loose with each other."


So I should board a male at my home or put my bitch at the male's house? Might be some truth to that, my bitch was only receptive to my friend's dog because she used to stay over a few times. Would have picked this male for breeding, he has nice large head, very biddable, social and really good in protection. The deal breaker for me was the bad hips.


Just another side question, what would be deal breakers be for breeding dogs particularly in IPO. Health is obviously a given. What do you look out for in phases A,B and C?


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> What country are you in? You can edit your profile to include that information.


From Singapore. 

Vets here are mostly lousy and expensive. The good ones work for zoos or the horse tracks while the lousy ones treat dogs and cats and charge $200 for yearly vaccinations, can you believe that???

There's nice dogs in my club though, mostly German, Czech or Slovak.


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