# Working Line /Show Line Differences in IPO



## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

We currently have 2 threads going that are discussing the differences between a working line dog and a show line dog when it comes to their ability to perform in IPO.

I thought one of the best ways of addressing the differences would be to show a couple of protection videos.

Here is the courage test video from this year's VA1 dog in the German Sieger show, Gary von Huhnegrab:






And here is the protection video for debby vom Eisernen Kreuz the #1 dog in the annual WUSV championship:

BTW, Debby was in heat at the time she took part in the show!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

For those of you not familiar with the Sieger show: the above video shows the full extent of the bitework done by each dog at the show. There is no tracking or obedience test required. The dogs must have a schutzhund or IPO degree before they even take part in the show.

The majority of the show consists of the dogs being gaited around a large track (the same type of track used for human foot races.) while they are evaluated by the judges.

The WUSV competition involves a complete IPO3 test: tracking, obedience and protection.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

You should break down the differences in the 2 videos Sunsilver. The specifics might interest people.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'd rather see videos side by side of the same exercise and same level of dog. Know what I mean? Two dogs doing the same exact exercise from a trial for IPO1 for instance, showline and 1 working line.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

What I notice immediately is less intensity with the show dogs and the show dog helpers. Compare the stick hits and body language of the helpers for both types of dogs. I have heard of show line events where the judges tell the helpers to go easy on the dogs. Apples and oranges.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, very true, Chip. The helpers at the Worlds really challenged the dogs by shouting and waving the stick. In the sieger show, the decoys are much easier on the dogs.

Another thing to note: how shallow Gary's grip is compared to Debby's. You can also see how the sheer size and bulk of the showline dogs impairs their agility when it comes to launching themselves for the bite, then hanging on for the drive.

If anyone can find a good video of a show line doing a full IPO3 protection routine, please post it. I don't have time to search for one.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

its clear to see even in other videos Ive watched that the SL dogs don't come in at the same rate of speed or hit the bite as hard or launch for the bite as hard as the general WL does. 

its very hard to find videos of SL dogs doing a full routine that a WL would do. ive seen plenty of pics of it so I know it happens in practice but obviously the dogs given equal requirements of routine would likely be outperformed more often then not by WL dogs so I doubt at higher levels you'll see any SL dogs out there. 

it really depends on what level of the sport you are at and what your personal goals are.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Maybe Gary's part DDR with real, defensive aggression and you shouldn't judge him by today's watered down IPO standards? Or am I confusing something I read on the forum? I've "heard" that judges have instructed things in trials with lots of different dogs. I wasn't there though. When I have been, I've heard some different things related to what the judge wants to see.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

egwinjr said:


> its clear to see even in other videos Ive watched that the SL dogs don't come in at the same rate of speed or hit the bite as hard or launch for the bite as hard as the general WL does.
> 
> its very hard to find videos of SL dogs doing a full routine that a WL would do. ive seen plenty of pics of it so I know it happens in practice but obviously the dogs given equal requirements of routine would likely be outperformed more often then not by WL dogs so I doubt at higher levels you'll see any SL dogs out there.
> 
> it really depends on what level of the sport you are at and what your personal goals are.


This is pretty good:





Its not all about getting air:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

egwinjr said:


> its clear to see even in other videos Ive watched that the SL dogs don't come in at the same rate of speed or hit the bite as hard or launch for the bite as hard as the general WL does.
> 
> its very hard to find videos of SL dogs doing a full routine that a WL would do. ive seen plenty of pics of it so I know it happens in practice but obviously the dogs given equal requirements of routine would likely be outperformed more often then not by WL dogs so I doubt at higher levels you'll see any SL dogs out there.
> 
> it really depends on what level of the sport you are at and what your personal goals are.


Yes, very true, Egwin! Diff'rent strokes for diffr'rent folks....

:grin2: Fur missiles - they DO exist!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

This is the picture I was trying to find as an example of a fur missile...


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

Sunsilver said:


> Yes, very true, Egwin! Diff'rent strokes for diffr'rent folks....
> 
> :grin2: Fur missiles - they DO exist!


is it bad that a part of me also just wants to get a SL now in spite of people mainly the ones local to me that seem to talk like they simply aren't capable for active ipo based work.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I'd rather see videos side by side of the same exercise and same level of dog. Know what I mean? Two dogs doing the same exact exercise from a trial for IPO1 for instance, showline and 1 working line.


My same exact thoughts. How can you compare two videos doing different things. Seems off- of the first two videos posted.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

You get one you want the right breeder the right dog you can?t loose you just have to be honest what you want to do to make sure you get what you want.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

egwinjr said:


> is it bad that a part of me also just wants to get a SL now in spite of people mainly the ones local to me that seem to talk like they simply aren't capable for active ipo based work.



Lol. I do get where you are coming from. Get the dog you want and have fun with him/her. That is what it is all about. You are the one that has to live with the dog. Get a good trainer and try your best. Hard work goes a long way.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have a question: why do they scream the commands at the dogs in IPO? I saw a video of a guy who like gasped in this huge breath to prepare to just scream as loud as he could I think to out his dog. I thought, jeez...I'd lose my voice doing that and meh.

Can't get the dogs to out or do whatever else for a reasonable command?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I have NO idea. And they don't do that in the clubs I've belonged to. However, if your dog is some distance away from you in a large stadium, you DO need to raise your voice to make sure it hears you.

The decoys yell like banshees to test the dogs' nerves.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> I have NO idea. And they don't do that in the clubs I've belonged to. However, if your dog is some distance away from you in a large stadium, you DO need to raise your voice to make sure it hears you.
> 
> The decoys yell like banshees to test the dogs' nerves.


No I am pretty sure they were not far from each other


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a question: why do they scream the commands at the dogs in IPO? I saw a video of a guy who like gasped in this huge breath to prepare to just scream as loud as he could I think to out his dog. I thought, jeez...I'd lose my voice doing that and meh.
> 
> Can't get the dogs to out or do whatever else for a reasonable command?


Its not that you have to scream, but once the leash comes off a stronger dog, all you have is your voice and maybe some subtle physical posturing. Sometimes they have to know you're involved in this too. I don't know about the video you saw, but it gets a little nerve racking when the dog doesn't out and your at the other end of the field. It was drilled into me not to scream and elongate it like ooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuusssssseeeee!!!!!!! You look weak.

And just to add, I know people that train and trial at a much higher level then I ever will, do elongate it like that. But I've seen enough dogs tug and thrash harder on that second ooooooouuuuuuuusssssssseeee that I followed the instructions not to.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

egwinjr said:


> is it bad that a part of me also just wants to get a SL now in spite of people mainly the ones local to me that seem to talk like they simply aren't capable for active ipo based work.


 it's not even necessarily that they're incapable. Just not the optimal tool for the job. Sure you can use a hammer and a screw driver to put screws in but after about 20 of them you're going to wish you'd just got the drill in the first place.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

How hard a dog hits isn't always about speed or launch. Both those "fur missle" pictures were on the back end of the catch. So not part of the launch at all. Speed and power don't always go hand and hand. Fast dogs with beautiful launches are a lot of times the easiest to catch. Now once a dog hit's, how it uses it's body, that's a whole other conversation. Catch multiple breeds of dogs and you'll understand what I'm saying.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

egwinjr said:


> is it bad that a part of me also just wants to get a SL now in spite of people mainly the ones local to me that seem to talk like they simply aren't capable for active ipo based work.



Buy the dog you like. Don't expect to change anyone's mind. It just won't happen. Even if you end up with the best SL IPO has ever seen, all they will say is that it's an anomaly, but their views of SL's won't change. So, be true to yourself and get the best dog you can for you. Then go out and do the best you can with the dog you have. Most importantly, have fun.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a question: why do they scream the commands at the dogs in IPO?


 It could be a necessity. I imagine those events are loud and the dog is far away, and very hyped up. In order for the dog to hear it the handler has to scream it. And for the sake of consistency maybe they train if that way all the time. That's just a theory tho


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

mspiker03 said:


> egwinjr said:
> 
> 
> > is it bad that a part of me also just wants to get a SL now in spite of people mainly the ones local to me that seem to talk like they simply aren't capable for active ipo based work.
> ...


Yea like I?ve said before chances are I?m going with one from the planned litter or at least something from that breeder. At my skill level I don?t see a SL being a hinder to progress. At some point if that becomes an issue it?s simple I just get a WL. If I were at the level where i needed it to have success in the sport I likely would be buying one with basic training already done anyway.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

thegooseman90 said:


> egwinjr said:
> 
> 
> > is it bad that a part of me also just wants to get a SL now in spite of people mainly the ones local to me that seem to talk like they simply aren't capable for active ipo based work.
> ...





mycobraracr said:


> egwinjr said:
> 
> 
> > is it bad that a part of me also just wants to get a SL now in spite of people mainly the ones local to me that seem to talk like they simply aren't capable for active ipo based work.
> ...



Oh I know that was more me just joking. I?m fully aware of what?s most optimal. I also know what I personally like so I wouldn?t be making a purchase to sway others opinions. 

I am glad I?ve asked because what ever way I go now I?ve really found some stellar breeders to choose from. Honestly I never knew there was so much to this so it?s exciting to delve into this and learn more.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

egwinjr said:


> Oh I know that was more me just joking. I?m fully aware of what?s most optimal. I also know what I personally like so I wouldn?t be making a purchase to sway others opinions.
> 
> I am glad I?ve asked because what ever way I go now I?ve really found some stellar breeders to choose from. Honestly I never knew there was so much to this so it?s exciting to delve into this and learn more.



There is a TON to this lol. Just remember to have fun, ask questions and find a good group of people you enjoy spending a lot of time with.


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## egwinjr (Oct 30, 2017)

mycobraracr said:


> egwinjr said:
> 
> 
> > Oh I know that was more me just joking. I?m fully aware of what?s most optimal. I also know what I personally like so I wouldn?t be making a purchase to sway others opinions.
> ...


Yea I can see that lol it?s ok though it should keep me busy and keep me too occupied to build another car or bike so the fiancé loves it haha 

It?s nice we can both enjoy this, and the more I look into it the more local people I?m finding so there should be plenty to learn from.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a question: why do they scream the commands at the dogs in IPO? I saw a video of a guy who like gasped in this huge breath to prepare to just scream as loud as he could


 Lol. I used to do this when I first started. Doing recalls. I would down my dog walk 30 paces turn and say HEEEEERE!!! Same with my down command it was very much louder than need be. I remember one training day I was going through my routine. I downed the dog, walked my 30 paces turned and as usual yelled HEEEEERE!!! 
As my dog was sprinting towards me I heard one of the girls say to the other girl sitting next to her " that is sooo loud" to which the other replied "I know". They were **** near the length of the field away from me talking in a normal tone and I could hear them. Since that day I just say Heere! It's still kind of a loud voice but not near a HEEEEERE!!!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not that you have to scream, but once the leash comes off a stronger dog, all you have is your voice and maybe some subtle physical posturing. Sometimes they have to know you're involved in this too. I don't know about the video you saw, but it gets a little nerve racking when the dog doesn't out and your at the other end of the field. It was drilled into me not to scream and elongate it like ooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuusssssseeeee!!!!!!! You look weak.
> 
> And just to add, I know people that train and trial at a much higher level then I ever will, do elongate it like that. But I've seen enough dogs tug and thrash harder on that second ooooooouuuuuuuusssssssseeee that I followed the instructions not to.


The video i recall that really struck me-- I could find it if I wanted to but I know the guy is well respected and so I don't want to post that and say "see what I mean?" very accomplished guy. And he screamed ouuse!! Just like what you are saying here. I would have to dig up the video to check but I feel like he was outing the dog off the guy in the blind and he wasn't far from the dog at all.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

egwinjr said:


> its very hard to find videos of SL dogs doing a full routine that a WL would do.






 full O routine in LGA (German regionals)




 full P routine in same
Max is one of Arlett kennels top studs and they bred him this year to a black WL who is linebred on Paska S. and also has Bomber W. in ped


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Nicely done, Max! I especially like the way he fights the decoy during the second drive, instead of just being baggage on the sleeve.

Thank you for finding those videos, Shephdad!


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Considered the last great SL in IPO, Cliff v. Huhnegrab, 2nd in the BSP 89, 3rd in 87 at age 2, member of German WUSV team, beating dozens of WLs. This is when dogs received real whacks with a reed and training methods were a lot harsher. 3, 5-3 Quanto. One son Nastor was Universal Sieger and v-BSP. No SL has come close since then.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

27 years later Same kennel. Now World Sieger VA1 Gary v. Huhnegrab.


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