# Fear In Obedience?



## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Do you believe that there is a certain level of fear in obedience? A trainer friend has said this,and firmly believes it. I don't believe in this at all,and while we agree on many things,this isn't one of them. 

A dog responding out of fear is way different than a dog responding because he respects you. That is not what I strive for.


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## KaiserBastiansMom (Jul 6, 2012)

I don't think there should be fear in obedience. I think obedience comes from a dog's respect for you. I work with Kaiser the same way I teach my kids. I don't want them to fear me, as that would lead to bad things in the long run.

So I agree with you.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I use a mix of positive and compulsion training. I'd like to see hear some feedback on IPO/SchH titled dogs (especially showlines) that were trained purely on positive training with zero compulsion or corrections. Not saying one is better than the other, just curious to see how often it happens.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

there should absolutely not be fear with Obedience. it should be all positive motivation. using praise and rewards. i can't believe anyone would beleive in fear motivation, in fact i don't even know how a dog could respond well to that. training should be fun and positive.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Obedience and fear just don't work together...if a dog is obedient because they are afraid then they really aren't trained. This is my opinion and only my opinion


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I use a mix of positive and compulsion training. I'd like to see hear some feedback on IPO/SchH titled dogs (especially showlines) that were trained purely on positive training with zero compulsion or corrections. Not saying one is better than the other, just curious to see how often it happens.


I just took my dog to get evaluated for this and its done purely positive. BUT, there is always a but..although the trainer and training are positive it doesn't mean that any work outside of this with the owner is positive only. While I was watching the dogs, one of them kinda cowered his head when the owner had him in the heel position...it definitely looked like for a brief moment that the dog thought it was going to be hit...I remember thinking that if my dog ever did that I would be very disappointed in myself.


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

llombardo said:


> I just took my dog to get evaluated for this and its done purely positive. BUT, there is always a but..although the trainer and training are positive it doesn't mean that any work outside of this with the owner is positive only. While I was watching the dogs, one of them kinda cowered his head when the owner had him in the heel position...it definitely looked like for a brief moment that the dog thought it was going to be hit...I remember thinking that if my dog ever did that I would be very disappointed in myself.


They "cower" their head when they are about to be remote collar zinged. You will know which dogs are trained that way , just watch the subtle reactions.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. Obedience is about working together as a team. there shouldn't be any fear involved. There is a time and place for a correction and if the correction is given at an appropriate time then there shouldn't be any fear.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I just took my dog to get evaluated for this and its done purely positive. BUT, there is always a but..although the trainer and training are positive it doesn't mean that any work outside of this with the owner is positive only. While I was watching the dogs, one of them kinda cowered his head when the owner had him in the heel position...it definitely looked like for a brief moment that the dog thought it was going to be hit...I remember thinking that if my dog ever did that I would be very disappointed in myself.


Hence my question, I've visited a few schutzhund clubs, train at a club several times weekly and have been to several trials/events/shows. I am very much a novice, but I have yet to see a titled dog (especially a SL) that has been trained using positive training only. I am talking about IPO1/SchH1 at least. Not a BH or CGC. I have no doubt that the latter can be easily done using positive training. My point is that simple obedience can be done via positive only. I've done so with all of my non-schutzhund dogs. I have no doubts about that. I wonder how many dogs can be titled if we used only positive training for serious titling. Fear is different than a correction. A correction given properly can be an useful tool in training.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

if i went to any trainer that believed in fear based training i would run................i can't even imagine that type of thinking.......


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

ponyfarm said:


> They "cower" their head when they are about to be remote collar zinged. You will know which dogs are trained that way , just watch the subtle reactions.


The dog had a regular collar on, he was at level 2, I believe. Very well behaved and trained and only the one time did he do that during the whole 20 minutes. I definitely seen the owner make a hand signal over the dog and I definitely seen that dog cower. I'll have to ask next time I see them if they used a collar.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

They used the collar to train him at one time. Just because he had a fursaver on at the time you observed him doesn't mean he still can't remember the corrections. Now he still has some fear-based reactions when he is reminded of when he was zapped. He cowers because he thinks he's about to get a correction, even though he doesn't have the ecollar on.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Cowering, flinching, lip licking. You can detect the results many times. 
Dogs can be trained without fear for very reliable performanced. Corrections can be applied in the right manner and time to help with more reliability. But, fear does not play a part in that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> They used the collar to train him at one time. Just because he had a fursaver on at the time you observed him doesn't mean he still can't remember the corrections. Now he still has some fear-based reactions when he is reminded of when he was zapped. He cowers because he thinks he's about to get a correction, even though he doesn't have the ecollar on.


Many trainers who use e-collars will associate the fursaver with the e-collar so when they do go onto the trial field the dog will think the fursaver is what is stimming him.

I would never want to train a dog to fear me! He is my partner.

I trained last weekend with a handler who had a young
(1 yr?) malinois. His training method with this dog is absolutely no corrections and the dog ran off several times, was not engaged and clearly was blowing off his handler. Because the handler wasn't asking much of the dog, the dog wasn't giving much. He had so much more in him....if only his handler would have asked for it. I think he was going a bit too far on the + spectrum. He didn't want to 'ruin' his dog so decided to train this one this way, I have a feeling he'll change his mind soon!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> He had so much more in him....if only his handler would have asked for it. I think he was going a bit too far on the + spectrum. He didn't want to 'ruin' his dog so decided to train this one this way, I have a feeling he'll change his mind soon!


Exactly what I was getting at with my question! Purely 100% positive won't work for serious titling on dogs. At least none that I've seen. There needs to be some correction thrown in there along with positivity, otherwise you don't get the same level of performance.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Samba said:


> Cowering, flinching, lip licking. You can detect the results many times.
> Dogs can be trained without fear for very reliable performanced. Corrections can be applied in the right manner and time to help with more reliability. But, fear does not play a part in that.


Thanks. Took the words right out of my mouth. Well you said them better than I would


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

That's what I have been telling him,but he is convinced that a dog has to show some level of fear in order to respect you. Soooooo I just agree to disagree with . He is all about authority,and so am I,but fear and respect are two totally different things. When training the dogs he does offer praise when they do something correctly ,but because he is so into the 'Domininant Male' BS his corrections are very heavy handed. He has even said that some of his personal dogs run from him. 

I am all for authority,but it doesn't have to be taken that far. 





Samba said:


> Cowering, flinching, lip licking. You can detect the results many times.
> Dogs can be trained without fear for very reliable performanced. Corrections can be applied in the right manner and time to help with more reliability. But, fear does not play a part in that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I feel sorry for his dogs.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

The very best and easiest dogs to train are those that have a near-insatiable desire to please. They don't need a smack or even a harsh word to motivate them to try again and again and again to deliver whatever their trainer is asking of them. That compulsion could be called fear, I suppose. In which case I agree. I can understand it in my human experience as well. How many of us had a professor or a teacher that we desperately wanted to impress or be acknowledged by? I know I was afraid in college of what my professors would think of all my hard work. It wasn't because they'd ever given me an F or yelled at me, it was because I had a genuine desire to please.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

unfortunately there aren't a big number of those special dogs that want to please. i have owned gsd's all my life and truthfully i have only had one that was totally all about pleasing and very easy to train. the rest have taken work and different tecniques and alot of effort to get them trained well. but, at the same time i have learned alot with every one and improved as an owner/trainer.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

even a dog that is trained with corrections shouldn't be fearful. A well-timed and appropriate correction is simply an indication that a dog has done wrong. The dog should understand and know what he did wrong.

If the dog is afraid of corrections, that means that he doesn't know what is expected. For him, a correction can come at any time. He is hesitant to perform because of that fear.

My dogs aren't afraid in obedience. Yes, they will be corrected if they fail to perform an exercise that they know. But they aren't "afraid". The are eager to work and respond happily when it's time to enter the ring.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

debbiebrown said:


> unfortunately there aren't a big number of those special dogs that want to please. .


I think that the "eagerness" can be trained into a dog. I start off when a pup comes home that obedience is fun. Great things happen when they do what I want. I never drill commands, most sessions are less than 5 minutes even now. Most of our "training" is done at playtime. Sit before I throw the ball. a few steps of heeling while walking to the playground. Later, I will have the dog front or do a left/right finish or some other quick exercise to earn the ball. 

When we enter the ring, the dogs are expecting fun. They perform eagerly and when we leave the ring, they are rewarded.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

qbchottu said:


> I use a mix of positive and compulsion training. I'd like to see hear some feedback on IPO/SchH titled dogs (especially showlines) that were *trained purely on positive training with zero compulsion or corrections*. Not saying one is better than the other, just curious to see how often it happens.


 
That would be interesting also to me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

debbiebrown said:


> there should *absolutely not be fear* with Obedience. it should* be all positive motivation.* using praise and rewards. i can't believe anyone would beleive in fear motivation, in fact i don't even know how a dog could respond well to that. training should be fun and positive.


 
How about an occasional correction when the dog fails to obey a command?

I.e. you tell the dog "Sit" and the dog stands there looking at something else? (after you have taught the command and you have seen the dog obey the command many times before).


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Dainerra said:


> I think that the "eagerness" can be trained into a dog. I start off when a pup comes home that obedience is fun. Great things happen when they do what I want. I never drill commands, most sessions are less than 5 minutes even now. Most of our "training" is done at playtime. Sit before I throw the ball. a few steps of heeling while walking to the playground. Later, I will have the dog front or do a left/right finish or some other quick exercise to earn the ball.
> 
> When we enter the ring, the dogs are expecting fun. They perform eagerly and when we leave the ring, they are rewarded.


 
your right a degree of eagerness can be trained into them. some more work than others. i was mostly talking about a natural ability to please........i had one like that and training was SO much fun and easy., i was spoiled.........i now have one that is on the other end of the spectrum, its taken work, work, work!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

codmaster said:


> How about an occasional correction when the dog fails to obey a command?
> 
> I.e. you tell the dog "Sit" and the dog stands there looking at something else? (after you have taught the command and you have seen the dog obey the command many times before).


corrections are necessary, but there is a difference between fear and a correction. and it all depends on the individual dog as far as the type of correction.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

codmaster said:


> How about an occasional correction when the dog fails to obey a command?
> 
> I.e. you tell the dog "Sit" and the dog stands there looking at something else? (after you have taught the command and you have seen the dog obey the command many times before).




I would do this after the behavior was taught and after the correction was taught. I teach corrections pretty early on actually. They are not alarming to the dog and I show the dog what to do in response to the correction just as I showed the dog what to do in response to the behavior cue in the very beginning. The dog then understands what he is to do in response to each correction. No surprises for the dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

one of the things that my trainer stresses is a "happy correction" That means just a quick leash pop (e-stim, whatever you are using) and then MOVE ON. 
For instance, forging on the heel. Give a quick pop while turning the other way. At the same time, use your happy voice and say "Oh, where's my dog?" or something like that. The dog gets his correction while at the same time you have reset to a happy tone for the training. It's pretty human nature to be annoyed and "down" when we do a correction and that continues past the moment of the correction. It resets your body language and encourages the dog to catch up with you and get back into position.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Gharrissc said:


> That's what I have been telling him,but he is convinced that a dog has to show some level of fear in order to respect you. Soooooo I just agree to disagree with . He is all about authority,and so am I,but fear and respect are two totally different things. When training the dogs he does offer praise when they do something correctly ,but because he is so into the 'Domininant Male' BS his corrections are very heavy handed. He has even said that some of his personal dogs run from him.
> 
> I am all for authority,but it doesn't have to be taken that far.



Wonder how he treats his kids!?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A correction can place a dog in defense drive. Praise and energy can restore the mind state to pack drive. You don't want the dog to linger in defense or you may get some ugly fallout. Always look at your dog during training and consider the drive he is in. If not in the appropriate brain state, your obedience performance will be colored by the dog's brain state you trained it in.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

That's the thing,he DOESN'T just a quick correction and move on,there is actually anger involved,and he has said that. I have gone with him to some follow up training sessions and the dogs don't even want to come to him. The owners just think 'Oh 'Harley' respects you so much!' But if you are paying attention you will see that the dogs are a little fearful of him. 
His impression of people who say ANYTHING about how hard he corrects a dog is that they are tree huggers and let their dogs do whatever they want. 
His breed of choice is German Shepherds,and he works with a lot of drivey dogs. Even these dogs exhibit some anxiety when working with him. He's 58 and definitely set in his ways.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Leave him like a bad husband!


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

IMO, a firm hand and corrections are necessary sometimes and with some dogs. Some dogs are easier to motivate, more submissive and eager to look for humans for directions, others can be more independent at deciding what's best, and harder to motivate obedience.

But how hard a correction is depends a lot on each dog's temperament, as well as the situation itself. My dog is one of those confident ones that prefers to evaluate what's best by himself and while I can get his attention and motivation lots of time, there are times in which control is necessary and can't have the luxury of giving the dog the power of decision making.

When he's calm, just a firm but gentler "no" would be enough. But depending on the state of mind, sometimes I do need harsher corrections.

But my dog is not really afraid of me, nor he is afraid of our trainer that harshly corrected him on the first time that he even backed away a bit from him in that moment. Dogs do know that they get punished or corrected when they do what they aren't supposed to do and if they are warned, so that they don't get such treatments if they listen, unless the owner is always correcting and never developed the relationship.
There's a difference between a parent that is only mean when the child doesn't listen, and the parent that is always mean; and the parent that gives really out of the world harsh punishments and the parent that gives punishments with appropriate intensity.


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## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

Gharrissc said:


> That's the thing,he DOESN'T just a quick correction and move on,there is actually anger involved,and he has said that. I have gone with him to some follow up training sessions and the dogs don't even want to come to him. The owners just think 'Oh 'Harley' respects you so much!' But if you are paying attention you will see that the dogs are a little fearful of him.
> His impression of people who say ANYTHING about how hard he corrects a dog is that they are tree huggers and let their dogs do whatever they want.
> His breed of choice is German Shepherds,and he works with a lot of drivey dogs. Even these dogs exhibit some anxiety when working with him. He's 58 and definitely set in his ways.


Sometimes, it's so hard to convince a trainer that has decades of experience when in his point of view, we are just inexperienced owners that can't even get our dogs to behave. Our trainer is very good and the dogs likes him despite of him being able to be harsh at times when necessary, but there are things that I don't agree with him yet I gave up debating about it with him (like all the paranoid about dominance lol dominance exists, but I don't agree that everything is about dominance).


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## gmcwife1 (Apr 5, 2012)

KaiserBastiansMom said:


> I don't think there should be fear in obedience. I think obedience comes from a dog's respect for you. I work with Kaiser the same way I teach my kids. I don't want them to fear me, as that would lead to bad things in the long run.
> 
> So I agree with you.


I agree with you and for us non fear is how we are teaching.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Gharrissc said:


> Do you believe that there is a certain level of fear in obedience? A trainer friend has said this,and firmly believes it. I don't believe in this at all,and while we agree on many things,this isn't one of them.
> 
> A dog responding out of fear is way different than a dog responding because he respects you. That is not what I strive for.


No, not if it is trained correctly. If the dog isn't enjoying it, there is something sadly amiss.


And that from a much older than 58 year old dog trainer.
DFrost


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If my dogs EVER exhibit fear of me, how shameful! I do not want my dog to display submissiveness. If the dog shows signs of stress, slow down or approach it differently. You just cannot have a good trusting relationship if it is based in fear. I do expect my dogs to be obedient, to listen and comply when I tell them something. I expect them to sit or stay or wait or down. And I am not against corrections, but my dogs do well because I train them without fear, I tell them to do things that I have trained them to do, I reward them for doing them properly with praise for the most part and the occasional tid bit. 

And if my dog does not do what I told him to, why? Is he not clear about the command, not trained properly, not trained around distractions? Do I need to back up and teach this again. What do I do? I reset and give the command again, STAY. Or I help him into the position, I asked for then I praise. You would think my dogs would walk all over me, but they don't none of them. They know what I want them to do and they do it. But out of fear? No. Out of the hope that Susie will say, "What a good girl you are?" Maybe.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

selzer said:


> If my dogs EVER exhibit fear of me, how shameful! I do not want my dog to display submissiveness. If the dog shows signs of stress, slow down or approach it differently. You just cannot have a good trusting relationship if it is based in fear. I do expect my dogs to be obedient, to listen and comply when I tell them something. I expect them to sit or stay or wait or down. And I am not against corrections, but my dogs do well because I train them without fear, I tell them to do things that I have trained them to do, I reward them for doing them properly with praise for the most part and the occasional tid bit.
> 
> *And if my dog does not do what I told him to, why? Is he not clear about the command, not trained properly, not trained around distractions? Do I need to back up and teach this again. What do I do?* I reset and give the command again, STAY. Or I help him into the position, I asked for then I praise. You would think my dogs would walk all over me, but they don't none of them. They know what I want them to do and they do it. But out of fear? No. Out of the hope that Susie will say, "What a good girl you are?" Maybe.


I like! If Minka doesn't do what I say I evaluate what the problem is and my very last thought would be the furry finger. Why? Because I have taken care when training her to understand her. She has proven to be dependable and if she doesn't do something it's usually for the reasons Selzer stated. And yup, there have been times when she breaks position/focus/whatever. I reset her with the appropriate firmness and we move on. Consistency in our relationship has taught her that I will always follow thru. I would be embarrassed and feel terrible if she showed fear.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

I hope I didn't miss this suggestion in the thread, since I'm coming in a little late, but look into Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive and Purely Positive Training by Sheila Booth and Gottfried Dildei for positive references.


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