# electric collar? what is your two cents?



## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

I am interested in getting an electric collar to aid in training purposes.... anyone have any advice, suggestions or experince with these as a training tool?


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Not for a novice to try... 

Useful in certain situations or where all else has failed...

Especially helpful in Sporting dogs where they're working far afield and need a correction from a distance. Helpful with established bad behaviors to extinguish them. I'd NOT recommend them be used on pups in any normal circumstance


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Very effective and humane tools when used properly. Unlike nearly any other form of correction/compulsion it is impossible to physically injure a dog with an e-collar (when used properly). It is best to learn first hand how to use them from an experienced trainer; there is more to it than just pushing buttons. 
I prefer dogtra but tritronics also makes decent collars. I would stay away from the cheaper collars as many of them seem to have serious problems.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I dont think electrocuting a dog is very nice.......IMHO.
Not trying so sound rude.
Alot of people on this board have GREAT training advise!!!










http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/information/poppysopinions/shockcollars/

http://shibashake.com/dog/dog-shock-collar-good-bad


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I use a ecollar for an off leash correction and have slowly started using it more and more as I have gotten more comforable and skilled with it.

I like them, but you do need to have someone that is skilled with one teach you how to use it properly.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

*Re: electric collar? only those that use them!*

ok how about... those that have used them what are your thoughts.... I am not online to be viewed as a bad owner in that I constantly want to shock my dog or use it inhumanly I am also training my dog and am not being lazy and just want to zap my dog.... I have heard excellent things about these collars and many people use them.... I just want to hear from those that use them and what their experience has been...


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

It would be my last, VERY LAST tool to use for training. it instills fear, not respect to the handler however as stated for an off leash correction, maybe


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

ya i am for sure thinking off leash.. not for chewing socks or to stay seated for periods of time etc... maybe when we go to dog parks and he is off the leash and maybe doesn't respond to my commands.... he is pretty good at this but just in case...


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Personally I try to stick to positive reinforcement based training (meaning positive reinforcement is primarily used in teaching cues and negative punishment used to decrease behavior I don't want.) 
If I can teach my dog without using physical discomfort or pain, why cause discomfort to train my dog?


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## Deux (Aug 16, 2009)

Not in my world.

Not use full. Makes things worse.

Sheppy's will take the pain to get the gain anyway. And it just makes things worse. Maybe you should use it on yourself for a bit.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

what do you personally do to decrease behavior you don't want... this is exactly why i come to this site before making a purchase as I don't know anything about it...
thanks for all the input


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## Deux (Aug 16, 2009)

In dog parks??? Your gona start a fight with that collar in a dog park!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you need to get a trainer to show you how to use it. They are very effective training tool in knowledgable hands...a fast way to screw up a dog in ignorant hands.

I learned that first hand. 

btw...you aren't supposed to fry your dog. It's supposed to be on a low setting, or even the vibrator which I use the most. There are some pretty strong feelings on shock collars. I tried it out on my hand first. I know exactly what setting is simply uncomfortable as a static shock and what setting sent it flying across the room.

I would never use it in a dog park. I don't think you would start a fight between the dogs but I don't think that would be an appropriate place to use off leash training. You should have solid recall on your dog before you let him loose in a dog park.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

ok... this is all helpful...


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

this site actually is what sparked my curiousity... worth a read

http://www.uwsp.edu/PSYCH/dog/LA/castle3.htm


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: onyx2009I am interested in getting an electric collar to aid in training purposes.... anyone have any advice, suggestions or experince with these as a training tool?


Very effective training tool when used by an experienced trainer. It is very, very easy to misuse an e-collar when you don't know what you're doing.

This would fall into the "Need A Professional" category in oder for it to be useful and humane.
Sheilah


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

There are several threads on e-collars. This one may be beneficial to you.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1270770


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## RadarsShadow (Nov 16, 2009)

I agree, please talk to a trainer before getting one. Not to long ago we had a dog brought into the groom shop that had scabs all over his neck. When I asked the owner about it they said that they had one mess up and burned holes all in the dog's neck. I know I would never use one on my dog.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

i think i could find someone to help me out.. but I am still on the fence on this one


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

What specifically are you trying to teach the dog that you are considering using an e-collar for? If you give some information on what you want to teach it might help to figure out what training tools would be best.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: onyx2009what do you personally do to decrease behavior you don't want


ALOT depends on the behavior.

Here's a real life situation. Mauser is about 14 months old. He recently went through a butthead stage where he wouldn't go in the house when let out of the field.

Our house is on 3 acres. The back part of the property is fenced for the dogs. There's about 75 feet between our back door and the gate to the field. When I let the dogs out of the field they are supposed to run to the door and wait for me.

SUPPOSED to. Mauser decided that running to the door then waiting until the last possible second, bolting past me and running back into the field was more fun.

I could have used a shock collar on him to correct this but I took a less physical approach.

I would let the other dogs in the house and then go and stand about half way between the door and the gate and wait. The whole time I was (of course) watching Mauser to make sure he didn't try to leave the field.

His thing was that going in the house meant the end of the fun in the field and he didn't WANT to have the fun end.

But being in the field alone wasn't much fun.

The first couple times I stood there for several minutes ... waiting.

When he finally decided to come towards the house I gave him calm praise and then once inside the door we had a PUPPY PARTY!! I had treats waiting (stashed just for this training) and a tug toy.

Now he is the first one to the door when let out of the field.

And the rare times that he does decide to question going back in the house all I have to do is point to the door and say HOUSE in a strong but calm voice and he heads right in.


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## flyinghayden (Oct 7, 2005)

Fine for the nephews, but I would never use them on my pups. First of all, for the type of dogs I find and adopt, or even aquire as puppies, the temperament doesn't warrant it. Would a dog like Maxie, or Hannah or Sable benefit from it? Not in my humble opinion. So, I don't, and will never use one.


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## kleinenHain (Sep 20, 2007)

I train my dogs in many levels and work around any problems I may have in the best way I know how. I've seen many people use this training tool ( some know how some do not) I seen a guy screw up a very nice SAR working Lab for using this and not knowing what he was doing.

I guess I do agree that it can be a useful training tool if you know what you're doing. I bought one a few years back to try but never did. It just didn't feel right to me.

Would I use one? No way, No how!!!

But again I must say it's just not for me.


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

I guess I do agree that it can be a useful training tool if you know what you're doing. I bought one a few years back to try but never did. It just didn't feel right to me.

Would I use one? No way, No how!!!

I also bought one and have never used it. i set the level to moderate and jolted myself on the hand and it's not pleasant! I put it away, cant find it and not looking for it.If someone wanted it i would give it away. for an inexperienced handler that gets fustrated with his dog, could you imagine what they would do with an E-collar? constant shocking for submission? no thanks, not for me Sorry Klenien Hain, i qouted you but my reply doesnt show it but i agree completly


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## kleinenHain (Sep 20, 2007)

Marksteven not a problem









Way I feel about it if a dog is trainable and you have that bond you can get your dog to jump hoops for you what shock them?

And even if their not trainable if you give that dog your all you can get them to work for you.


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## L2druid (Nov 24, 2009)

I use e-collars and I will agree that you should not use it unless you know what you are doing. With that said, I think they are an excellent tool to use.

You never use a setting that's high enough to make your dog cry out or get fearful. The setting should be so low it only causes them to just twitch a little, they will almost be confused at first. This setting feels like a soft 'poke' and not like a nasty shock. I could put it on and it doesn't hurt. Every dog has their level that they need, some dogs will be higher or lower than others. My male's is actually lower than my female's setting, I can hardly even feel his.

In my opinion, this is no different ( if anything, better ) than leash pops on a flat collar.

One thing I like best about the collar is it doesn't matter how close the dog is to you if you need to use it. Also, I would never use it unless I KNEW that they knew the command and were just blowing me off. Using it out of nowhere and giving unwarranted nicks to a dog can make them neurotic, confused as to where and why they were getting corrected so they get paranoid as to when the next one will be coming.

One of the things I used mine on was my male WGSD used to be an avid poop eater. He knew what 'drop it' meant. He would poop in the yard then spin around and eat it as fast as he could. He was always looking for some anywhere we went. If told to drop it he would run and eat it even faster until finished. Being on a leash helped, but the neighbor's dogs all use our yard as well ( Grr ) so you never knew what was out there and he seemed to find some no matter how hard we looked and cleaned up. It also made him obsessed with the ground on walks, always looking for some to scoop up, so walks were an extreme chore because here people let their dogs poop anywhere and don't pick it up.

Aside from it being nasty we were also concerned for his health because he had had coccidia when we got him and he was finally over it.

It was becoming an obsession until we got the e-collar for him. It only took 2-3 times of him trying to blow us off before he started dropping it when told then the problem started fading away. 

As Laurie said, behaviors can be fixed in any number of ways and it is your choice on the approach. I'm sure we could have fixed Bliz using other methods, that's just the way we chose and it worked well.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

My dog knows many commands but at times forgets or ignores us... we get him to catch balls and he will usually return them when we say drop it.... sometimes he barks in the house for nothing and he usually quits when we say quiet.... sometimes he forgets that he shouldn't jump on people... I am looking for this ecollar to use as a gentle reminder when he decides he doesnt want to listen for whatever reason... most times on our walks he is great... once and a while he tries to pull me or decides to go and check out something.... my dog is smart, he is one and 100 lbs... i want my children to be able to walk him etc and I just thought this ecollar might help out with as a gentle reminder... I love teaching my dog tricks and he responds very well to praise as a reward rather than treats which i like as it is hard to find treats that have no flour... thanks for the input...I am not into the choke collar thing.... is this an unrealistic expectation or is it wrong to want to make gentle corrections? I see some people chokin the crap out of their dogs while they are walking... is a quick shock on the lowest level worse than that? Keep the info comin!


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx2009My dog knows many commands but at times forgets or ignores us... we get him to catch balls and he will usually return them when we say drop it.... sometimes he barks in the house for nothing and he usually quits when we say quiet.... sometimes he forgets that he shouldn't jump on people... I am looking for this ecollar to use as a gentle reminder when he decides he doesnt want to listen for whatever reason... most times on our walks he is great... once and a while he tries to pull me or decides to go and check out something.... my dog is smart, he is one and 100 lbs... i want my children to be able to walk him etc and I just thought this ecollar might help out with as a gentle reminder... I love teaching my dog tricks and he responds very well to praise as a reward rather than treats which i like as it is hard to find treats that have no flour... thanks for the input...I am not into the choke collar thing.... is this an unrealistic expectation or is it wrong to want to make gentle corrections? I see some people chokin the crap out of their dogs while they are walking... is a quick shock on the lowest level worse than that? Keep the info comin!


Right now he sounds like hes in the stage my dog is in.(hes 1 also) HE decides when he wants to listen.
Well when he doesnt listen...play stops & he is ignored until he wants to listen.
I think there are better ways than to zap your dog into listening to you.
Treat training etc. ( you can use freeze dried or fresh chicken bits/liver bits)
Just keep reinforcing his good behavior. Tell him good boy when hes quiet, laying down, sitting etc.
More ppl have better info than I do tho!!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: onyx2009... is a quick shock on the lowest level worse than that? Keep the info comin!


Yes, a low level shock that is ill timed and poorly administered is worse than a leash correction. Just like any correction, doing it poorly can make the behavior worse.

I don't know, I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think that most if not all of your targeted behaviors could be addressed with something other than an e-collar. Proofing his behavior so that he is rock solid in even the most stimulating and distracting of environments could be done without using an e-collar. As others have already pointed out, e-collars work for situations where the dog has been trained solidly and knows how to perform the expected behavior. With your dog it sounds more like he needs more of what you have already been doing? And some things are never going to be extinguished altogether, like barking in the house...if he barks and then quiets when you tell him to, you're already getting the desired response. Dogs bark, nothing will change that. But if he quiets on a verbal command, what would an e-collar need to improve on? My own personal opinion is that children shouldn't be walking dogs without direct adult supervision, since most of the time it isn't your dog that is the problem and a child shouldn't have to deal with controlling the dog on the other end of the leash and a neighbor's loose dog at the same time. Not fair to the child! Or the dog. It is hard enough to deal with those situations when you're an adult. But that is my own pet peeve, so disregard if you want to!

As I said before, an e-collar is an effective training tool when used by an experienced, knowledgeable trainer. But I think you would be able to continue to train your dog without one, given the things you want to work on and the level of training your dog already has. Good luck, your dog sounds like a nice, happy guy (I can now picture him running around your yard with the ball, playing keep away!).
Sheilah


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I dont know why everyone assumes that the only way e-collars are used is at the highest level where the dog yelps and jumps out of its skin?

You're not sticking the dogs toungue in an electrical socket. When used correctly, the e-collar is no more horrible than a leash pop (either on a prong, choke, flat or martingale) or even maybe screaming at your dog to do something or stop doing something.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: sit,stay
> Yes, a low level shock that is ill timed and poorly administered is worse than a leash correction.


Not sure I agree with this, at least not for my dogs. All three of my dogs are pretty handler sensitive. Leash corrections (doesn't really matter the collar) are "harsher" because they come from me. For me the value of the e-collar is that the dog doesn't know where the correction or negative reinforcement is coming from. I've seen them used really well even on super sensitive dogs that shy away from even a voice correction from the owner. Obviously no ill-timed stim or leash pop is desirable but in my experience, the leash correction is not the better option.


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## L2druid (Nov 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlassI dont know why everyone assumes that the only way e-collars are used is at the highest level where the dog yelps and jumps out of its skin?
> 
> You're not sticking the dogs toungue in an electrical socket. When used correctly, the e-collar is no more horrible than a leash pop (either on a prong, choke, flat or martingale) or even maybe screaming at your dog to do something or stop doing something.


I agree...I see more dogs screamed at, gagging themselves on leashes, swatted with objects...etc. A light nick with an e-collar is nothing compared to those things. 

It's not like you're nuking them and it pulses through their entire body. It feels better than being jolted by static when you touch someone's skin.

Now I know there's some cheap collars out there that could be inconstant with their levels of intensity, so I'd not settle for anything less than very high quality device but that's not the point.

It's not torture... You're not 'frying' your dog. It is a TAP. It's actually very gentle.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I have no problem with them depending on the dog and circumstances.I use one for both my dogs so they can be free outside instead of tied or in a 20x20 pen.I use it for a constant 100% recall when out in the yard.Both of my dogs go ballistic when they see me with them because guess what? It means fun and play not pain and shock.
If the dog yelps it means it is to high a setting and needs to be lowered.Depending on the problem and the dog it might need different levels at different time.I feel it is no different in my circumstances than using the invisafence.Both things will give a zap but I can control when.If my dog decides to come when called when it gets close to it's boundaries it won't get a zap if it continues to advance toward it's boundaries and won't listen I can zap it.
If you decide to use this method please consult a professional and use common sense.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

Good point... are people just as opposed to the electric underground fence.... many people have this!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I'll be interested to see the opinions.I honestly believe people find a difference in the 2 methods.I see no difference other than the fact I have control.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: onyx2009Good point... are people just as opposed to the electric underground fence.... many people have this!


There's a HUGE difference in the reason I am 110% against the underground e fences.

For me, a fence's #1 purpose is to keep things OUT. #2 purpose is to keep my dogs in.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: L2druid
> I agree...I see more dogs screamed at, gagging themselves on leashes, swatted with objects...etc. A light nick with an e-collar is nothing compared to those things.


I don't think any of those things are valid training methods.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: L2druid
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlassI dont know why everyone assumes that the only way e-collars are used is at the highest level where the dog yelps and jumps out of its skin?
> ...



Let me know how it feels on YOUR NECK, then you can tell us if it hurts the dog or not.
When properly training a dog should NOT be gagging if a proper leash correction was made. A yelp, yes.(If using a pinch collar) Thats how a mother would correct them. Not with electricity.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I zap myself every time I put it on my dogs.That is how I make sure it is working.I start at 1 and work my way up to see how much I like it.I've been hurt worse with static electricity than the e collar.
To me, used correctly it is no different than any other humane way of training.
Most SchH trainers use them and police dog trainers.Used correctly they don't hurt.You have a better chance of hurting your dog with a prong than an e collar.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

"Electronic shock collars are effective for teaching obedience ONLY if they are used correctly. Many police departments use electronic collars to train police dogs because of the precise level of obedience these dogs require.

The potential to misuse an electronic collar is very, very high. If you're interested in using an electronic collar, work with a professional trainer to get you started on the right path. Thoroughly interview the trainer to ensure they have a lot of experience with electronic collar training. Also, make sure the trainer uses low levels of correction and high levels of praise and treats to ensure a positive training experience for your dog. Lastly, make sure you buy a high-quality remote collar that offers at least 10 different levels of correction, starting with a very faint correction (equivalent to a very faint tickle)."


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> Let me know how it feels on YOUR NECK, then you can tell us if it hurts the dog or not.
> When properly training a dog should NOT be gagging if a proper leash correction was made. A yelp, yes.(If using a pinch collar) Thats how a mother would correct them. Not with electricity.


Ok....I will! Because I have! It didnt HURT!! WHY??? Because you dont use it at a level that HURTS the dog! If I have the choice of keeping my dog safe and protecting her life with the use of an electronic collar (either with an underground fence or out on a trail) You bet Im going to use an e-collar, rather than HOPING my dog remembers all the POSITIVE reinforcement training I did prior to introducing the e-collar! I'd really be doubtful that I would of been able to call Sydney off a DEER or COYOTE if I didnt have an e-collar on her. 

So its OK to make dog yelp with a leash correction with a prong, but NEVER ok to correct a dog with an e-collar and NOT have the dog yelp??!!! Ya that makes sense....


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlass
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...










Couldn't have said it better....


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## L2druid (Nov 24, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlass
> ...


Seconded, absolutely agree here. 

I have also placed it on my throat and it doesn't hurt, it feels like a tap..like I mentioned before. I am not an abusive owner getting off on shocking my dogs into submission, I just like having a buffer in case something happens and also as a useful training tool. If my dogs ever decide to blow off a prior solid recall because a cat or a squirrel is sprinting across a busy street..etc, I have something that can save either of their lives. I think even the most solidly trained dog could possibly make a decision to do something that it feels is worth more to it's interests than a handful of treats or some praise. I am in no way bashing treats or praise, I use them both constantly of course, but there is a time you need to correct in later training.

As for the mother dog treatment...ok..so the only natural thing to do would be to let the dog off leash, since leashes are unnatural. Also, all corrections are to be made by biting the dog with your own mouth. Anything else is cruel and unusual. Verbal corrections outside of growling is also a no.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok, sounds like everyone is ok with zapping their dog.
I think its CRUEL.
& thats cool if you use one.
&& L2druid....I never said ANYTHING about people who use them are abusing their dogs??
Zapping & pinching are 2 very different things. We each have our own way of training.
I would rather have my dog follow my commands & getting a reward getting a ball or something...not out of fear.
I use a pinch ONLY for walking as my dog could rip my arm out of the socket.

Yah, I can see if your dog is PRONE to taking off you might use one....to save its life...not for recall & etc


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlass
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


& you should deff calm down. lol
Like I said....electricity is different than a PINCH.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Angel, the e-collar is like a poke on the shoulder, to get your attention. I don't like to get a poke on my shoulder, it is very annoying, but it does get my attention. You control the amount of electricity, some dogs have a higher threshhold for attention getting, especially if they are in a driven train of thought.
Just like squirting with a water bottle, pretty annoying, but it gets your attention. 
There is a time and a place for this type of training, and the dog involved is the gauge of what correction is appropriate.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

As I said, any training tool can be too harsh in the hands of an inexperienced person. It doesn't matter if it is a flat, buckle collar or an e-collar. 

An incorrectly used e-collar can be worse than a (singular) leash correction. But a poorly used leash correction with a flat collar can be worse than a properly used e-collar. There is a great deal of variability and it is difficult, to generalize to all users, working with all dogs, for all issues. 
Sheilah


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlAngel, the e-collar is like a poke on the shoulder, to get your attention. I don't like to get a poke on my shoulder, it is very annoying, but it does get my attention. You control the amount of electricity, some dogs have a higher threshhold for attention getting, especially if they are in a driven train of thought.
> Just like squirting with a water bottle, pretty annoying, but it gets your attention.
> There is a time and a place for this type of training, and the dog involved is the gauge of what correction is appropriate.



Well said, thanks!








That is all true.
Its just a preference I guess.My gf uses one on her GSD when we go out walking.
I only have a plain collar on my dog, as he listens pretty well. He does take off, but he will stop dead in his tracks when I say his name.
I kinda forget sometimes that all dogs are not the same.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

thanks all...I knew that it was an acceptable way of training and I know many people that have had great results... anything can be misused I agree but many people have this view of dog owners zapping their dogs to see how high they jump... come on! I am glad to hear of the good results with a GENTLE current... I didn't intend to have some much controversy however I think many ecollar owners have made some excellent points...


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Angel, can I ask if you have felt an e-collar? Or have you put a pinch around your neck and have someone hold the end of leash and maybe give you a pop or have you pull against the leash? If thats you're reasoning as to whats suitable for a correction, if I was a dog, I would choose the e-collar!

Im not opposed to pinch collars, either, I use them as well. I just find it annoying when people talk about how e-collars are "zapping" and hurting the dog and using fear to get a dog to respond, when they have zero experience or education on how they are used.

I teach EVERYTHING my dogs learn with clicker training and positive reinforcement, only using an e-collar when it is necessary to proof something (recall for example).


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

onyx2009 - if you search the archives there are many many threads devoted to debating e-collars and many experienced trainers who are down on them for various reasons. This thread has had fewer posts but I suspect it's because the issue has been debated so many times before.

But the pro e-collar people on this thread and others do tend to agree that it's absolutely critical to get GOOD help in learning how to use one correctly. It's not something you should do out of a book or wing on your own. And when choosing a trainer, finding the right one is critical as well. There are a lot of charlatans out there who specialize in creating remote control dogs that look impressive to people who don't know any better but are actually highly stressed and shut down from overly harsh training.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I just wanted to share this short video of a dog being properly introduced to an e-collar. As you can see, the dog is happy, stress free, and is getting clear communication from the handler.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YRmnqZUWXw


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

If I think of it tomorrow I will get a video of my 2 when I bring the e collars out.They jump around and Lexi barks and talks and Athena jumps and bounces around.They LOVE there collars.
I make them sit at the door before they can go out to play with them on.Lexi shakes with anticipation and Athena sits proudly waiting.With the use of the E collar my 2 are able to chase each other around our yard,and play ball freely.I don't have to fear her recall if a dog should go by or a cat should get outside while we are out there.If it weren't for those 2 big no nos I wouldn't use it.When I have them outside I rarely use them it is a precaution in case something tempting comes by.
It's all in how it's used, just like any training tool.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Allie, it cant be possible that your dogs like getting their collars put on because e-collars are cruel!!! lol

I just wanted to add, that Shane who just turned 8 months, has been on the underground radio fence since he was 6 months, and today, I took him to the park and we started his introduction to the e-collar for training. I started with conditioning him to the collar, finding the right setting (same way as in the video i posted) and the recall, as this is VERY important, especially for him, he has HIGH drives and loves to chase EVERYTHING. 

Please note, that since I got Shane at 8 weeks, we have done 100% motivational and positive training to teach him all he knows. That means he's been shown exactly what I want him to do when I give him a certain command for 6 months with treats, praise, and play! Now it is time to make sure he doesnt blow me off and he MUST respond when I give him a command.

He did great! Responded well, tail wagging, same happy-go-lucky guy that he was before the collar was used. He actually responds better to the e-collar than the prong, in which if he had the prong on and he knows he did something wrong, he would dart away if he thought I was going to grab his collar/leash. No averting me with the e-collar, he came when called and he got lots of praise. 

I wish I had someone there to video tape to show people how stress-free and how much FUN Shane had at our training session!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlassAllie, it cant be possible that your dogs like getting their collars put on because e-collars are cruel!!! lol
> 
> I just wanted to add, that Shane who just turned 8 months, has been on the underground radio fence since he was 6 months, and today, I took him to the park and we started his introduction to the e-collar for training. I started with conditioning him to the collar, finding the right setting (same way as in the video i posted) and the recall, as this is VERY important, especially for him, he has HIGH drives and loves to chase EVERYTHING.
> 
> ...


It's raining today so no outdoor play, but I will get video of it tomorrow if the sun comes out.Lexi is hilarious with her talking.She does her beagle bark/talk.
I was against them until I decided to use it.It took me a few months then I gave in.Same with the prong collar,I thought it was torture.The day I decided it was ok was when I took her to Petco and here ears and eyes were beat red from pulling with excitement in the store.I figured that was much worse for her than a prong.
Some dogs I think can get a negative reaction to them but I think it all has to do with how it is introduced.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Sorry for coming into this so late. I've been out of town. 



> Originally Posted By: Windwalker18Not for a novice to try...


I think that the Ecollar is one of the best tools for a novice because it's far easier to learn to use than many other tools. 



> Quote: Useful in certain situations or where all else has failed...


I like to use them for basic OB once a dog is at least 6 months old.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RI dont think electrocuting a dog is very nice.......


It's not. And no Ecollar is capable of causing electrocution. That means _"To kill using electricity."_ No Ecollar ever made is capable of that.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: markstevenIt would be my last, VERY LAST tool to use for training. it instills fear, not respect to the handler however as stated for an off leash correction, maybe


It would be my VERY FIRST tool to use for training. Used as I do, not only does it NOT instill fear but it DOES instill respect to the handler. Ecollar are NOT just for off leash corrections but for teaching with as well.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocaninePersonally I try to stick to positive reinforcement based training (meaning positive reinforcement is primarily used in teaching cues and negative punishment used to decrease behavior I don't want.)
> If I can teach my dog without using physical discomfort or pain, why cause discomfort to train my dog?


Using an Ecollar as I do, only minor discomfort is the result. _"Pain"_ is a continuum, ranging from _"I can't stand that for another second!"_ to _"It's chilly, I think I need an sweater."_ 

_"Positive reinforcement based training"_ is great but it rarely gives reliable results in the face of distractions with most people. And it does not give reliable results on all dogs in all situations.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: CK
> Sheppy's will take the pain to get the gain anyway.


If all you do is press the button without teaching the dog what the stim means, this may be accurate with some dogs. But if you teach the dog what it means, this does not happen. 



> Quote: Maybe you should use it on yourself for a bit.


We get that you don't like the Ecollar, but there's no reason for this.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Lou,
Thanks for the professional back up to this thread debate.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08I think you need to get a trainer to show you how to use it.


Some people learn better with a trainer at their elbow. Some people learn better by watching videos. Some people learn better from reading. 



> Quote: They are very effective training tool in knowledgable hands...a fast way to screw up a dog in ignorant hands.


Very true. 



> Quote: I would never use it in a dog park. I don't think you would start a fight between the dogs but I don't think that would be an appropriate place to use off leash training. You should have solid recall on your dog before you let him loose in a dog park.


I'm not a big fan of going into dog parks. There are often people there with dogs who are looking for a fight. Even in the best of circumstances you don't know the state of health of the other dogs, whether they've been vaccinated or not and whether they've got parasites or not.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: RadarsShadowI agree, please talk to a trainer before getting one. Not to long ago we had a dog brought into the groom shop that had scabs all over his neck. When I asked the owner about it they said that they had one mess up and burned holes all in the dog's neck. I know I would never use one on my dog.


This is one of the more common myths about Ecollars. It's impossible for ANY brand or model of Ecollar to cause electrical burns on a dog's neck. They just don't put out enough power. Those tummy exercisers that are advertised on TV put out about 183,000 times the power of an Ecollar used as I advocate. And no one gets burns from those things. 

What you saw was probably either _"moist eczema"_ or _"skin necrosis"_ caused by having the collar on for too long and/or too tightly. They can also be cause by having it on too loosely. The first are similar to friction burns. The second are caused by impairing the circulation directly under the contact points and so the skin literally dies. 

Neither of these are pleasant but Ecollars can't cause electrical burns.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: onyx2009i think i could find someone to help me out.. but I am still on the fence on this one


Of course you could. In fact you have. Take a look at the articles HERE.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> SUPPOSED to. Mauser decided that running to the door then waiting until the last possible second, bolting past me and running back into the field was more fun.
> 
> I could have used a shock collar on him to correct this but I took a less physical approach.


I'd bet the farm that I'm the biggest proponent of Ecollars on this list. I'd not use the Ecollar as you describe here.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: flyinghayden Fine for the nephews, but I would never use them on my pups.


ROFL. Good one! 



> Quote: First of all, for the type of dogs I find and adopt, or even aquire as puppies, the temperament doesn't warrant it. Would a dog like Maxie, or Hannah or Sable benefit from it? Not in my humble opinion. So, I don't, and will never use one.


You're wise to pick dogs that you know will respond to your methods. Would that everyone did that. 

But many owners, probably even most, don't do this. They either get puppies where it's impossible to predict exactly what they'll turn out like or they get older dogs, perhaps from friends or the pound and they don't have the knowledge to make this selection and/or the dog is significantly different after a few weeks in his new home.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: marksteven
> for an inexperienced handler that gets fustrated with his dog, could you imagine what they would do with an E-collar? constant shocking for submission? no thanks, not for me Sorry Klenien Hain, i qouted you but my reply doesnt show it but i agree completly


Good point. But I think even worse is that same inexperienced, frustrated handler with a tool like a choke chain, buckle collar or pinch collar. The Ecollar can cause pain but it CAN NOT cause any physical injury.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier onyx2009 wrote,


> Quote: ... is a quick shock on the lowest level worse than that? Keep the info comin!





> Originally Posted By: sit,stay Yes, a low level shock that is ill timed and poorly administered is worse than a leash correction. Just like any correction, doing it poorly can make the behavior worse.


I think this answer depends on your definition of _"worse."_ 



> Quote: I don't know, I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think that most if not all of your targeted behaviors could be addressed with something other than an e-collar. Proofing his behavior so that he is rock solid in even the most stimulating and distracting of environments could be done without using an e-collar.


Perhaps. But even if it could be done it would take lots more work. 



> Quote: As others have already pointed out, e-collars work for situations where the dog has been trained solidly and knows how to perform the expected behavior.


Nowadays lots of us are using the Ecollar for training new behavior that have no been previously taught. 



> Quote: Dogs bark, nothing will change that. But if he quiets on a verbal command, what would an e-collar need to improve on?


Many dogs will quiet at first but soon continue to bark past the command. 



> Quote: My own personal opinion is that children shouldn't be walking dogs without direct adult supervision,


I think the age of the children is the question here. Your definition of _"children"_ may not be the same as the OP's or mine. Onyx, how old are your kids?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> Let me know how it feels on YOUR NECK, then you can tell us if it hurts the dog or not.


I never understand why people bring this up in Ecollar discussions. I've put the Ecollar on my hand, the inside and outside of my arm and my neck. Some places were more sensitive than others but so what? I recommend that the Ecollar be used at the level where the dog first feels it. I can adjust my Ecollar so that in each place, no matter how sensitive it is, I can just barely feel it. I can do the same thing with any dog. It's minor discomfort. I'd not say that _"hurts"_ at all. 



> Quote: When properly training a dog should NOT be gagging if a proper leash correction was made. A yelp, yes.(If using a pinch collar) Thats how a mother would correct them. Not with electricity.


Doggie mothers don't use leash corrections or pinch collars either.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> The potential to misuse an electronic collar is very, very high.


I've read this before but have never had anyone explain to me why _"the potential to misuse an electronic collar"_ is any higher than with any other tool? In fact I think the other way round. I think they're much more likely to misuse choke chains and pinch collars. 



> Quote: Lastly, make sure you buy a high-quality remote collar that offers at least 10 different levels of correction, starting with a very faint correction (equivalent to a very faint tickle)."


I recommend that Ecollars have at least 15 levels.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel ROk, sounds like everyone is ok with zapping their dog.
> I think its CRUEL.


I don't think that most who have written in support of Ecollar are _"zapping"_ their dogs. I think they're using it at a much lower level and that what they're doing is the equivalent of tapping the dog on the shoulder to get his attention. Don't know about you, but I don't have a problem with that. 



> Quote: We each have our own way of training.
> I would rather have my dog follow my commands & getting a reward getting a ball or something...not out of fear.


An Ecollar, used properly, does not create fear. In fact, quite the opposite is the case. I've used it on many fearful dogs and created a bond with them in just a few minutes.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

ok, well thanks for quoting me IN EVERY post you made.
I dont like it. Plain & simple.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm trying to keep up with your posts here. Just one question regarding my dog...

When I put the e-collar on her, and I only use the vibrator, she seems extremely intimidated by it. She's very clingy, a little unsure of herself. What would you suggest in this situation?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Angel Rok, well thanks for quoting me IN EVERY post you made.
> I dont like it. Plain & simple.


And I'm sure your dog doesn't like the prong or the spray bottle but you continue to them both.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I said in an earlier post I dont use that anymore b/c he doesnt bite.
And I also said I use his prong ONLY when on a walk SO he doesnt rip my arm out of the socket.
Spraying water is different.
Im done on this subject. I dont like the collars end of story. I dont like using prongs either.
I bought my dog a gentle leader.
I dont agree with you.
Sorry.
Theres no use in arguing


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Maybe he needs more training if he is pulling that bad.Even with the prong on Athena won't pull me along she may be ahead of me but not pulling me.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

He is REALLY bad with pulling at first.
If I have him on his prong for 5 min, then take it off he does GREAT!
He prolly thinks hes still wearing it.....


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Allie, I agree, after training with prong collar the dog has to walk on a flat collar, not on a GL (which is not so gentle, by the way). Also the proper use of prong is not in making a dog yelp...

I am leaning towards using the ecollar for off leash hiking. I just don't feel comfortable letting a powerful intact male off leash without any additional backup. At this point he's coming back 100%, I worked with him a lot, but I'm still not comfortable.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:the pro e-collar people on this thread and others do tend to agree that it's absolutely critical to get GOOD help in learning how to use one correctly. It's not something you should do out of a book or wing on your own. And when choosing a trainer, finding the right one is critical as well. There are a lot of charlatans out there who specialize in creating remote control dogs that look impressive to people who don't know any better but are actually highly stressed and shut down from overly harsh training.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Allie, I agree, after training with prong collar the dog has to walk on a flat collar, not on a GL (which is not so gentle, by the way). Also the proper use of prong is not in making a dog yelp...
> 
> I am leaning towards using the ecollar for off leash hiking. I just don't feel comfortable letting a powerful intact male off leash without any additional backup. At this point he's coming back 100%, I worked with him a lot, but I'm still not comfortable.


I am totally for them if it gives the dog some happy time.I will get pics of mine tomorrow.They go ballistic when I get them out,they love them because while I have used them for training they associate it with fun playtime.No leashes or chains to give them 40 ft boundaries.They have an acre plus to run and chase each other on.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel Rok, well thanks for quoting me IN EVERY post you made.
> I dont like it. Plain & simple.


Call me pedantic if you like, but I dislike such gross inaccuracy. I wrote 15 posts and only quoted you in four of them. 

But one thing that I did notice. You did not respond to even one of the comments I made or answer any of the questions that I asked.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> When I put the e-collar on her, and I only use the vibrator, she seems extremely intimidated by it. She's very clingy, a little unsure of herself. What would you suggest in this situation?


I'm not a fan of using the vibration for training, in place of the stim. One problem is that only one brand of Ecollar made allows for the adjustment of the vibration level while they all allow for adjustment of the stim level. 

Some dogs ignore the vibration and some panic. Many find it much more aversive than a stim at the level that they first perceive it. Some dogs react to it at first and then come to ignore it. 

I'd suggest using an Ecollar that has at least 15 levels instead of the vibe or getting yourself an Unleashed Technology Ecollar and using a lower vibe level. 

I use the vibe as a recall signal with most of the dogs that I train. But it has to be taught just as does the verbal cue.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RI said in an earlier post I dont use that anymore b/c he doesnt bite.
> And I also said I use his prong ONLY when on a walk SO he doesnt rip my arm out of the socket.


But the fact remains that you STILL use it. And the bit about _"rip[ping your] arm out of the socket"_ is obviously an exaggeration. 



> Quote:
> Im done on this subject. I dont like the collars end of story.
> I dont agree with you.
> Sorry.
> Theres no use in arguing


And there's no need to. Wondering if you could answer the questions that I asked and respond to the comments I made about what you wrote?


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RHe is REALLY bad with pulling at first.
> If I have him on his prong for 5 min, then take it off he does GREAT!
> He prolly thinks hes still wearing it.....


I'm sorry I'm going to have to disagree on this. Dogs are not stupid. Put a pinch collar on yourself and wear it for _"5 min, then take it off …"_ I'd bet that you can tell that it's not on anymore. I don't think the dog is fooled either.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I'd use an e-collar over a head halter any day. 

Thanks Lou for adding your expertise and experience to the thread.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel RHe is REALLY bad with pulling at first.
> ...


I DIDNT SAY MY DOG WAS STUPID. Where do you "experts" come up with that??????
You dont have to be so freaken rude.
Im tired of this. Like seriously.
I never said my dog is stupid.
You dont know anything about me or my dog or how I train him.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel RI said in an earlier post I dont use that anymore b/c he doesnt bite.
> ...



NO! He can very well pull my arm out. If he spotted something. Im 105 pounds, my dog is 90-95.
Bad assumptions you are making.
Seriously. 
Why attack me?
Because I dont agree with you?


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

Im done with some of the people on this board.
Most I like.
But some are just all about creating arguments & making people feel stupid. 
Thanks for that.

Im not a moron.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I have a dog with permanent neck damage from his training collars, both a choke and an e-collar.

I've seen good dogs ruined by the e-collar, just made neurotic. I know it doesn't have to be that bad, but often it is. I think trainers that promote e-collars for basic training, and trainers that claim that you cannot do physical or emotional damage with an e-collar are irresponsible, because I don't believe that those statements are true.

I think that most trainers that need to use an e-collar really are limited in the type of training tools and logic that they use. Lauri's example earlier is a great example. Control the resources, make it worthwhile, there are other ways than to train with force and pain.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: onyx2009ya i am for sure thinking off leash.. .. maybe when we go to dog parks..


Yikes, please no, not at the dog park........


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RBut some are just all about creating arguments & making people feel stupid.


Sometimes it's the pack mentality Angel R...try not to let it get to you.

Btw, I use a squirt bottle on Indy for her barking. Nowadays, I mostly just have to show it to her.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Angel R
> ...


The prongs simulate teeth.
PINCH collar??


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> ...


Read it again, he never said that you said your dog is stupid. He said DOGS are not stupid, meaning how you said your dog probably thinks the prong collar is still on, Lou is pointing out that your dog knows that the collar is off.

He's not being rude, he's giving his opinion based on what he knows and his experience, to try and dispel all the myths and maybe change a few minds.


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## rapnek74 (Mar 19, 2009)

After training with an E Collar for over 10 years now... My thoughts are if you're not training with one you are missing the boat. 

Used properly they are the best training tool out there. 

One more thing... treats for training are not to be given to every dog. It is advised that treats not be giving to Search and Rescue dogs. You don't want them eating while they are working. No telling what they run up on in the field.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> The prongs simulate teeth.


I've heard this a lot and not sure if it makes any difference. I think a dog communicates differently with humans than with other dogs, they know the difference between being bit in the neck and getting a correction. I use prong collars but don't have any qualms about calling it like it is - prongs are uncomfortable or hurt. I don't think it makes it any more or less justified that it's supposed to be like another dog biting/correcting. Generally when training with a prong and deliberating giving corrections you WANT the dog to know that correction came from _you_. That's why many people who use corrections will use prongs and e-collars on the same dog, depending on where the dog should understand the correction is coming from.


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

Here's my 2 cents worth: Bothe e-collars and pronged collars are great training tools if used by an experienced person with a decent disposition that wont take their fustrations out on their pet! i know of poeple that have put their finger on the transmitter button of an E-collar and never let up until they shocked their dog into submission. i have also seen poeple drag their dog down the street with a prong collar using constant pressure. sorry but it takes all kinds of morons today. if you go with an E-collar, it should have the Audible warning tone built in with it. after training with it, your dog should not need the electric stimulation because if trained correctly it will respond to the HARMLESS audible warning tone. thats why you need to read the instructions that comes with the collar or work with a trainer familiar with E- collars. they are only torture in the hands of an irresponsible trainer that cant control their emotions when their dog isnt responding to their training techniques


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

True that, Mark. (and thanks for the collar) 

I was just testing my new collar on my wrist and could not feel the Level 1 at all, FWIW (I know people earlier were throwing out comments like "put it on yourself!").


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeTrue that, Mark. (and thanks for the collar)
> 
> I was just testing my new collar on my wrist and could not feel the Level 1 at all, FWIW (I know people earlier were throwing out comments like "put it on yourself!").


lies, just make sure you recharge it, its been sitting for awhile and you might want to adjust the level of stimulation and your welcome!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

The new e collar I bought has a nice training DVD with it.It goes through conditioning the dog to wearing it and having fun then gets into the obedience use of it.
I also try it out on my fingers before I put it on my dogs.I did that before ever doing it to my dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: marksteven
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LiesjeTrue that, Mark. (and thanks for the collar)
> ...


It didn't work at all at first so I charged it all day until we dared each other to go first. I couldn't feel it on the Level 1 so I did the boost and then I felt it (which I think puts it on 3) but it didn't really hurt. In fact I have arthritis i my hand there and it kinda felt good, lol. We're going to the e-collar trainer later this month hopefully.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> I DIDNT SAY MY DOG WAS STUPID. Where do you "experts" come up with that??????


I never said that your dog was stupid. I said _"DOGS are NOT stupid.'_ [Emphasis added] You said that he _"prolly thinks hes still wearing [the pinch collar]…"_ after you've taken it off. 

I thought it was clear that I was saying that he was NOT stupid! 



> Originally Posted By: Angel RYou dont have to be so freaken rude.


Not rude at all. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel RIm tired of this. Like seriously.
> I never said my dog is stupid.


Neither did I or anyone else. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel RYou dont know anything about me or my dog or how I train him.


Yes, I know. But it really makes no difference. You've made several comments about the Ecollar that shows that you really don't know very much about them. We're not discussing your dog or how you train him.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> NO! He can very well pull my arm out. If he spotted something. Im 105 pounds, my dog is 90-95.


Can you point us to even one story of a dog pulling a human's arm out of the socket when on a leash? It's a figure of speech that you've tried to turn into a reality. It's not one. Angel R, you are playing with words and making a gross exaggeration. I have no doubt that you dog might pull you to the ground. He might even cause some injury to your shoulder. But he's NOT going to _" rip [your] arm out of the socket."_ Let's try to stay real OK? 


> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> Seriously.
> Why attack me?
> Because I dont agree with you?


You're not being attacked. Some things that you've said are being questioned and some disagreed with. Neither is an attack. You've made some statements about Ecollars and dog training in general that I know are not accurate. I'd guess that you have little to no personal experience with Ecollars. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Angel RIm done with some of the people on this board.
> Most I like.
> But some are just all about creating arguments & making people feel stupid.
> Thanks for that.
> ...


No one has said that you are.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTI have a dog with permanent neck damage from his training collars, both a choke and an e-collar.


What kind of _"permanent neck damage"_ does your dog have from the Ecollar? 



> Originally Posted By: LisaT I've seen good dogs ruined by the e-collar, just made neurotic.


I've seen good dogs ruined by many tools that many people here prefer. Ruining a dog has nothing to do with the tool and everything to do with how it's used. 



> Originally Posted By: LisaT I think trainers that promote e-collars for basic training, and trainers that claim that you cannot do physical or emotional damage with an e-collar are irresponsible, because I don't believe that those statements are true.


The truth is that you can do emotional damage with just about ANY TOOL. I'll disagree that you can do any physical damage with an Ecollar other than sores from leaving it on too long or putting it on too tightly. Do you have any scientific studies that support your statement. If so, I'd love to see them. 

As far as _"emotional damage,"_ here's what Steven Lindsay, author of the three volume set of books "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training" says about it when a Ecollar is used properly.


> Quote: Most scientific evidence supports the notion that the cessation of aversive ES in the context of escape/avoidance training is more likely to *enhance social attraction, promote feelings of safety, and calm a dog rather than make a dog afraid or apprehensive. * … Instead of instilling social aversion and anxiety … competent electronic training may actually * promote social attachment, reward, and safety, * With the behavior- contingent cessation or avoidance of ES, * dogs experience immediate emotional relief that subsequently merges into a state of progressive relaxation incompatible with social aversion and fear *


He continues,


> Quote: The preponderance of scientific evidence suggests that ES [electrical stimulation] escape/avoidance and pain reduction should * promote long-term effects that are incompatible with fear and stress, making the trainer an object of significant extrinsic reward that actually enhances the dog's welfare via an improved capacity for social coping, learning, and adaptation. *





> Originally Posted By: LisaT I think that most trainers that need to use an e-collar really are limited in the type of training tools and logic that they use.


I find this statement to be quite rude. I'm surprised that a moderator would make it. 

In reality no one _"need to use an Ecollar."_ We trained dogs for thousands of years before they came along. But they're here now and show no signs of going away any time soon. There have been many technological advances made over the years including the computer that we're typing away on. I doubt that many would want to return to the conditions of old, and there's no reason to. I, for one, like my indodor plumbing. lol

Do you have any evidence for this statement or is it just your opinion? If the latter, please tell us what this opinion is based on. In my case, I use whatever tool/method is appropriate for what I'm teaching and the dog that I'm working with. 

I'm especially interested in how you've come to the conclusion that _"most trainers that … use an Ecollar … are limited in logic."_ 



> Originally Posted By: LisaT Lauri's example earlier is a great example. Control the resources, make it worthwhile, there are other ways than to train with force and pain.


I'll disagree that Ecollars necessarily apply what most of us would consider pain. I'll state that if you are _"controlling the resources"_ that you ARE using force.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> Btw, I use a squirt bottle on Indy for her barking…


A good example of using force and pain.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: Doggie mothers don't use leash corrections or pinch collars either.





> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> The prongs simulate teeth.


That's one theory anyway. I don't think it's so. Mom applies teeth to the scruff of the puppy's neck NOT to just the underside of it. Mom's teeth make contact in two points, on either side of the scruff. Pinch collars make contact nearly all the way round the dog's neck or usually just on the bottom, where the prongs are. Mom applies her teeth until the behavior stops. Most use a pinch collar with a pop and then a release so pressure is just applied for an instant. 

I think they work simply because they apply discomfort and the dog wants to avoid that. It's Ockham's Razor all over again. 



> Originally Posted By: Angel RPINCH collar??


Look it up. It's another name for prong collar.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlass
> Read it again, he never said that you said your dog is stupid. He said DOGS are not stupid, meaning how you said your dog probably thinks the prong collar is still on, Lou is pointing out that your dog knows that the collar is off.
> 
> He's not being rude, he's giving his opinion based on what he knows and his experience, to try and dispel all the myths and maybe change a few minds.


Thanks for the assist SG. I knew that most would understand it. I had no idea that Angel R would take it the way that she did. It lacks logic.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: markstevenHere's my 2 cents worth: Bothe e-collars and pronged collars are great training tools if used by an experienced person


The more experience one has, the better, as long as they've learned from that experience. There's the old saw of someone "with twenty years of experience really only having one years' experience, twenty times. But few people on this forum are going to be experienced. I'd guess that there are lots of people here with lots of experience and, at the same time, far more people with little experience. 

My articles on using the Ecollar were specifically written for someone who's never before used one. They've been put to use by such people many times, who have reported that they're completely happy with their results. 



> Originally Posted By: marksteven with a decent disposition that wont take their fustrations out on their pet!


Given that there are some who will do this. I'd MUCH PREFER that they were using an Ecollar than a pinch collar. Both tools can inflict tremendous degrees of pain. But the Ecollar can't cause any physical damage while the pinch can. 



> Originally Posted By: marksteven i know of poeple that have put their finger on the transmitter button of an E-collar and never let up until they shocked their dog into submission.


Quality Ecollars have cut–off switches that stop the stim after 10-12 seconds. 



> Originally Posted By: marksteven
> if you go with an E-collar, it should have the Audible warning tone built in with it. after training with it, your dog should not need the electric stimulation because if trained correctly it will respond to the HARMLESS audible warning tone.


I don't use the tone for this. My command is _"the HARMLESS audible warning tone."_ Using the tone in addition to the command is similar to repeating a command and I think that's a mistake.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

That is something my trainer said about the tone.He doesn't like it,they should respond to your voice command,not a tone.

I'm glad we have a "professional" on our side.Some people here as you have seen have very different views and are very rude about them.It's there way or no way.I'm not saying any one method is right but I don't think any should be ruled out.

One reason I use the prong more than e collar outside my yard is the bad rap they have.I need to learn more with the video that came with mine or by you Lou so I can use it to it's full potential.

Is there any circumstance/training issue you would NOT use it on? 
Any type of dog you wouldn't use it on?


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

I can use my voice to train my dog, saying "good Boy!" when he does something right, I can also scream at him everyday and make him fearful and just a plain miserable dog.

So would someone say you should never use your voice to train your dog, because there is the POSSIBILITY that it could be used abusively?


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: marksteven
> ...


 If you read the inst, you can open the transmitter and possibly raise the level of stimulation but it has to have at least 8hrs charge and the battery in the hand held mite need to be replaced.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lou, I read your articles on finding the working level and the recall and felt they were nothing short of thorough. You covered every possible point and scenario. I feel like I could go out and do it on my own and do it correctly based on those articles. I may start one of my dogs on my own based on your articles (he's an escape artist so we just really need a solid recall, and to be able to keep him away from the gate that he's constantly destroying to get out, but no other training is needed for him). My SchH dog I will take to the e-collar trainer b/c that is who trains us for SchH and he has certain techniques/methods it will be easier if we work the same way.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGThat is something my trainer said about the tone.He doesn't like it,they should respond to your voice command,not a tone.


I agree with your trainer. Some people like doing this to give their dog an "extra chance to comply." I know that this leads to the dog thinking that the command is BOTH the verbal command AND the tone. If he only gets one, it's not a command to him. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieGI'm glad we have a "professional" on our side.Some people here as you have seen have very different views and are very rude about them.It's there way or no way.I'm not saying any one method is right but I don't think any should be ruled out.


I really wish these conversations could be conducted without the rudeness but it rarely goes that way. The Ecollar is very polarizing and some people just refuse to control themselves. We even have a moderator belittling those who use Ecollars by saying that some of us have _"limited logic!"_ 



> Originally Posted By: AllieG One reason I use the prong more than e collar outside my yard is the bad rap they have.


My response to people who don't like the Ecollar is to just blind them with excellence. When I was the trainer for my department our dogs were only on leash during two periods. One was crowd control and the other was during training. The rest of the time they worked off leash. 

I did daily walk–throughs of our mall, one of the busiest in California, off leash. Regularly people threw food at him (which he ignored); people who panicked at the sight of a dog, screamed and tried to literally climb nearby walls to get away from him (which he also ignored); and small children, without permission or warning, ran up to him and threw their arms around his neck (this he tolerated and usually slimed them). No other department in the area did this. They just did not have the control and/or didn't trust their dogs. 

When we got together with other departments for training, my department's dogs were the only ones who did all their OB off leash. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieG I need to learn more with the video that came with mine or by you Lou so I can use it to it's full potential.


You might think about signing up for my Ecollar forum. http://www.modernecollartraining.com Lots of experts there who will help. 



> Originally Posted By: AllieG Is there any circumstance/training issue you would NOT use it on?
> Any type of dog you wouldn't use it on?


What a great question. I have yet to come across a dog that I would not use it on. This includes dogs so fearful that they respond to every change in their environment, including noises, with aggression, dogs so fearful that they roll over and wet themselves when anyone new walks into their space and dogs so dominant that even picking up their leash is an invitation to get bitten. 

But there are lots of things that I would not use it to train. Often they're what I call "circus tricks." Things that are mostly fun, although they may be useful. An example is a bark on command. I taught my patrol dog this with treats. 

I also don't use it to teach precision heeling. I find that a leash and correction collar is better.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlassI can use my voice to train my dog, saying "good Boy!" when he does something right, I can also scream at him everyday and make him fearful and just a plain miserable dog.
> 
> So would someone say you should never use your voice to train your dog, because there is the POSSIBILITY that it could be used abusively?


Please SG stop with the logic. Those of use who use Ecollars can't keep up. ROFL.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeLou, I read your articles on finding the working level and the recall and felt they were nothing short of thorough. You covered every possible point and scenario. I feel like I could go out and do it on my own and do it correctly based on those articles.


Liesje thanks so much for this. 



> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI may start one of my dogs on my own based on your articles (he's an escape artist so we just really need a solid recall, and to be able to keep him away from the gate that he's constantly destroying to get out, but no other training is needed for him).


I suggest that you teach at least one more behavior than the recall, either the sit or the down, preferably both, even if the dog already knows those commands. Otherwise you may get a dog that is slow to leave your side because the only thing the buzz means to him is to recall. Teaching the other movements teaches him that there are other reasons that the buzz might occur.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks, I'll do that too.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

Wow I should keep up with my post... some of you are experts on everything! (was that subtle enough?)
My chilren are 16 and 17 years old and I allow them to walk our 100 pound dog without much worries... I am not dumb enough to let a 6 year old walk this type of dog alone....
I think MOST poeple have common sense and many of you are quick to jump on people that choose to use ecollars or whatever method they use... this is a free country and we can all do as we choose despite what others think...or at lease we should do whatever we feel is best for us.... they sell these ecollars with DVDs and if you do the proper research I don't see anything wrong with using them... you don't need a degree to purchase these!
I am all for hearing about different methods people are using but like children every dog is different.... so I read all the posts, and have no problem "zapping" myself before I try it on my dog either... 
I resent people thinking that this device is not for a novice...um we are all novices at some point!
Either way the discussion has been interesting to say the least...


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

onyx2009,
I definitely recommend reading the articles on lou's website
http://www.loucastle.com and also join the forum, where you will be able to ask all kinds of questions and get lots of responses, minus the "how cruel!! dont zap your dog!" type responses.


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## onyx2009 (Jun 9, 2009)

Oh I will continue to check out Lou's forum.... thanks


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ShatteringGlass, minus the "how cruel!! dont zap your dog!" type responses.


Yah, I get it, you dont like my answers or me. 
GOOD.
I like it that way.
Your quite childish.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Locking up for the night.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I use an e-collar but properly and only after serious deliberation. The e-collar is not for puppies. The e-collar I use is a dogtrac plantinum. It has the tone feature (that's where I believe the e-collar is better than the prong collar, because it gives the dog the chance to respond to the tone first and it is effective off leash), digital dial, it shuts off the shock, waterproof, 1/2 mile range. And yes, I test it on myself. The e-collar is to be used when the dog knows better but is going to do it anyway. My dog is 125 lbs - he outweighs me. If he sees something, he would go after it - no matter what. He would lunge and pull the leash out of my hands and go after the other dog, deer, rabbit (sure, he's friendly, but it only takes one car to kill him). I had been training him on positive methods - well, sometimes, he didn't want the treat - he wanted his way. I had been reading about natural dog training. I use the e-collar to "shock" him out of his solo hunting, and hunt with me. When I have to give the correction, I use it the way hunting dogs are trained. For example, he wants to take off after a deer. I call - he keeps going. I use the tone - if he stops (now, 99% of the time, he will at the tone), and looks back - I'm all nice with praise - if I have to give the shock - I do the same thing - that way he doesn't associate the shock with punishment. The change is amazing - he does what he should do. I do not use it for basic training. I train him (for example heel, down/stay, sit/stay) with positive methods. He only wears it when we go for walks and for his refresher obedient sessions in the back yard if there are a lot of tempting distractions. I don't use the e-collar alone - it's part of a total program. I play with him - fetch tug - is his favorite game - and yes, he always wins!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

if you don't know how to train your
dog find a trainer. <

are you training and socializing
your dog everyday (several times a day)? <

does your dog need an e-collar or is it
something you want to try? <


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