# Heelwork Critique?



## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

So I'd like to get back into the swing of Heelwork with Patton. We took a little break to focus on other things (like dock diving and disc) but since the seasons are changing, I'd like to improve our heelwork finally.

I took this video on the fly last night. Wasn't planning a session, but he was pretty interested in doing something, so I put some treats in my pocket and hit record. Best session I've gotten out of him in a while, from my point of view!? I've never trained a formal heel on a dog before, so I'm a total newb when it comes to this. 

Any help would be great. What to change/add/subtract.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I'm not being critical, but just something to think about and because its something I'm trying to be aware of. The little breaks in concentration, like where he drops food. I want to try and have a clear beginning and end keeping the intensity up till I clearly release and leave the position. Does that make sense?


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I totally know what you mean and definitely agree! It's one thing that I do really consistently in every facet of our training except for heelwork. I'm not sure why! But I was recently thinking about how I needed to be making that clear. Perfect suggestion, thanks!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Can anyone else give some constructive criticism?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey DJ, something else thats not really a criticism, just something I keep in mind. I know you just turned on the camera, spur of the moment, but I don't like doing any heeling inside like that. Nothing beyond attention work. As soon as you're going to move, I want it outside, in drive. I'd rather have forging then lagging.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I can't see the video. I can't critique but i want to see what Steve meant


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with getting outside, longer strides will show the dog better. Adding distractions besides the bones/toys on the floor may be a challenge for a younger dog. 
I couldn't hear many of the verbal communication over the music, so don't know if he was offering or doing what he was commanded. 
I like to mix up the positions, keep the dog guessing on what comes next. 
His heel position/focus is nice! Agree with not letting him sniff for dropped treat.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

can you post a full link to it? I'm getting forwarded somewhere weird


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO2pREyv3o8


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

thank you!! this works


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

It all depends what the goal is. The level of engagement in video is good for a few seconds of work in high distraction environment before you lose the dog. 

Engagement is everything, it has to be fun for the dog and the dog has to want to be with you and push you and push you for more. Only then heeling will last 10-15 minutes out there.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Overall I like the heelwork, but agree with Packen need more drive for the food. A few small things to notice you let him start off right away with a hover but instead of complete sitting. Next at 0:29 his front shoulder is not beside your knee and gets rewarded. Then at 2:22 you do I believe a recall but he does not come in and finish in front of you before finishing by your side. This is all based on IPO heeling. For food if he drops a piece I don't let him get it instead he has to work for the next piece, in essence loses the reward because he goofed. Just food for thought.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I agree with getting outside, longer strides will show the dog better. Adding distractions besides the bones/toys on the floor may be a challenge for a younger dog.
> I couldn't hear many of the verbal communication over the music, so don't know if he was offering or doing what he was commanded.
> I like to mix up the positions, keep the dog guessing on what comes next.
> His heel position/focus is nice! Agree with not letting him sniff for dropped treat.





Packen said:


> It all depends what the goal is. The level of engagement in video is good for a few seconds of work in high distraction environment before you lose the dog.
> 
> Engagement is everything, it has to be fun for the dog and the dog has to want to be with you and push you and push you for more. Only then heeling will last 10-15 minutes out there.





szariksdad said:


> Overall I like the heelwork, but agree with Packen need more drive for the food. A few small things to notice you let him start off right away with a hover but instead of complete sitting. Next at 0:29 his front shoulder is not beside your knee and gets rewarded. Then at 2:22 you do I believe a recall but he does not come in and finish in front of you before finishing by your side. This is all based on IPO heeling. For food if he drops a piece I don't let him get it instead he has to work for the next piece, in essence loses the reward because he goofed. Just food for thought.


 Thank you guys for the added help! I didn't think that working on it indoors would hinder anything, so that was helpful insight for sure. 

My only real goal is a BH. My problem is that when he is really in drive, outside, with toys and engaged, he forges and swings out. So I have gone back to foundations inside with food while he is in lower drive to get the precision that I want, then I will put it back on a ball. 

Definite thanks on the treat dropping comments. I can't seem to get him to take them and move with me, would it be acceptable to stop to reward each time, if I'm marking during motion? 

Trying to get better about the butt hover and positioning, I'm sure that's something that will get better with time and experience, but it's at least a little better than it has been. :crazy:

At 2:22 I released him to fuss. He does not have a front, yet, so I can't recall him to front.  Also why I can't do much with positioning. Still working on those! 

Thanks again- great things to keep in mind!


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

If you want to go for a BH you will need to insert a front in there or you will get docked. As for treats I like to take a hot dog and if slimy with hot dog juice I dry off and then cut in half and cut pieces length wise. I then put between my thumb and forefinger so when I drop it down for reward it forms a pocket that he can sneak into and nibble a small amount off of. It seems with your treat being as small as it is that he can't do that, but also it is big enough it makes him stop to chew if that makes sense. When my dog nibbles on the hot dog he only gets about as much as a mouse would for each reward. The problem with hovering is once you reward by moving forward then it can quickly become a bad habit. These are all food for thought and not the only solution to try.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> If you want to go for a BH you will need to insert a front in there or you will get docked. As for treats I like to take a hot dog and if slimy with hot dog juice I dry off and then cut in half and cut pieces length wise. I then put between my thumb and forefinger so when I drop it down for reward it forms a pocket that he can sneak into and nibble a small amount off of. It seems with your treat being as small as it is that he can't do that, but also it is big enough it makes him stop to chew if that makes sense. When my dog nibbles on the hot dog he only gets about as much as a mouse would for each reward. The problem with hovering is once you reward by moving forward then it can quickly become a bad habit. These are all food for thought and not the only solution to try.


 Oh I definitely know we'll need a front! lol. It's just not something we've put enough time into to use practically yet. 

I took this video outside last night, with a ball/tug reward for comparison. 

Nevermind the awful outs. We haven't worked with this ball before and I know how to get good outs on my own, but that's not what we were training last night. I'm seeing some swinging and forging, a few butt hovers too. Any insight on this would also be great!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Very nice pup, how old is he? I see several things that are keeping him confused otherwise great job.

1. Move with normal pace, I see some slow lingering turns while looking at the dog. Even if you are walking in a circle, keep normal pace.

2. After you out the ball he is in limbo mode, i.e., he is left standing and thinking what is next so he tries to beat you into getting in position as you put ball under arm.

3. Focus on 1 item in a session (here you went straight, downed the dog, recalled, turned both directions, multiple paces, tried to correct his position after he went out of position) all in 1 session! (he cannot learn so many things at once)

So for 1, go straight a few paces then stop before he gets out of position, reward. Go straight a few paces and abruptly turn left (in 1 step) and stop. He will be out of position, no reward, try again, big reward when in position. Pace is normal, no lingering slow pace, your face up looking straight keep him in peripheral vision. If walking in left circle, same rules apply (normal pace, face up, reward or stop before he gets out of position). 

For 2, Either sit or down him before or after outing the ball. This way he is in a certain commanded position. As you set up the ball under arm he should remain in the commanded position, then call him to heel or stand in basic position and tell him Sit.

3 is pretty self explanatory. Predetermine 1-2 exercises to use in the session and focus on those items only in that session.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nice work!!!  His brother doesn't even know that heeling is on the left side, let alone any resemblance!! I accidentally told him to heel last night while walking to the park (he was whining and pulling like a horse since he knew I had discs) and he looked back at me like I was nuts.

I agree with a few of the other comments: move a little faster, that will bring up his excitement (at least, it works with Nikon), pick one thing per session to focus on (but I admit I did like being able to see where he's at with his pivots, sits, down, recall, etc), but overall, you're doing super awesome for his age and not even training with a club. This style of heeling will be perfectly fine for a BH or if you go further with SchH.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you Lies! We are sure trying. 



Packen said:


> Very nice pup, how old is he? I see several things that are keeping him confused otherwise great job.
> 
> 1. Move with normal pace, I see some slow lingering turns while looking at the dog. Even if you are walking in a circle, keep normal pace.
> 
> ...


Thank you! He just turned 10 mos less than a week ago. We have done 100% of our training on our own.

1. Good to know! I was moving slower to let him be more deliberate. Should I just move with a normal pace and only mark/reward when he is where he needs to be, reset if he gets too far out of position? 

As for the rest, I *know* we work on too much... I've been told this time and time again. It's something I struggle with, BUT, I purposefully didn't do #2 because I was being conscious of this! THAT is a work in progress because he does want to move with me and not hold the position. I worked on that a little bit before we started heeling.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Someone once told me that I should walk with my head forward and my back straight and tell myself my dog is there and heeling correctly. Any time you (not you personally, but a general "you") second guess yourself, you have a tendency to start giving weird cues or dropping the left should which will push the dog out of position. When I was teaching Pan heeling, I had several people watch us heel around a large space and verbally coach me until they felt his stride looked best. When that was happening, I had to take longer steps than what I would have if I were just heeling and thinking it looked OK.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> Thank you! He just turned 10 mos less than a week ago. We have done 100% of our training on our own.
> 
> 1. Good to know! I was moving slower to let him be more deliberate. Should I just move with a normal pace and only mark/reward when he is where he needs to be, reset if he gets too far out of position?


Very impressive, you are talented! Pup is only 10 months! add play, play and play after every reward. During play, you are still training but it is play to the dog, very important to keep bond and engagement getting stronger. Otherwise he may start to lose interest.

For example instead out a formal out command, after you reward, whip out a 2nd ball and get his attn, he will drop the 1st ball, now play, play, play with ball in your possession then tuck under arm and go straight into heeling or whatever the next exercise is. Also if he is away from you and he has the ball with you calling him, show him the 2nd ball, will increase his speed to you. Just some thoughts after seeing his age!

And yes you are correct about the pace and reward.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I like the video of the outside work just a few small things to think about. First a few times he bounces expecting the reward but I don't hear any way of telling him that was not right, instead you keep going and he is rewarded so this can create problems later. He definitely likes to talk when he is frustrated. I notice when you are playing if you bring the ball closer to your body so you can make dead he does out clean, the only other time is when you lean over him, so then he does out but not as smooth. Over all I think you are well on your way to getting a BH a few things cleaned up and he could do really well. I would start working on adding the front so that he does not forget that in trial and goes straight to your side, have seen that happen. Be careful with the slow pace dogs need that sometimes when learning but after that a more normal pace looks a lot nicer. I think the forging is coming out of frustration that you may not be communicating with him what you expect or at least my partial deafness can not hear, just a thought. With a spotter it is easier but I try to start right and have him from the first step and reward when he is correct.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Packen said:


> Very impressive, you are talented! Pup is only 10 months! add play, play and play after every reward. During play, you are still training but it is play to the dog, very important to keep bond and engagement getting stronger. Otherwise he may start to lose interest.
> 
> For example instead out a formal out command, after you reward, whip out a 2nd ball and get his attn, he will drop the 1st ball, now play, play, play with ball in your possession then tuck under arm and go straight into heeling or whatever the next exercise is. Also if he is away from you and he has the ball with you calling him, show him the 2nd ball, will increase his speed to you. Just some thoughts after seeing his age!
> 
> And yes you are correct about the pace and reward.


 Thanks! We did a lot of two ball work when he was much younger, I agree it would be a good idea to continue doing it... go back and do it more. Great idea! 



szariksdad said:


> I like the video of the outside work just a few small things to think about. First a few times he bounces expecting the reward but I don't hear any way of telling him that was not right, instead you keep going and he is rewarded so this can create problems later. He definitely likes to talk when he is frustrated. I notice when you are playing if you bring the ball closer to your body so you can make dead he does out clean, the only other time is when you lean over him, so then he does out but not as smooth. Over all I think you are well on your way to getting a BH a few things cleaned up and he could do really well. I would start working on adding the front so that he does not forget that in trial and goes straight to your side, have seen that happen. Be careful with the slow pace dogs need that sometimes when learning but after that a more normal pace looks a lot nicer. I think the forging is coming out of frustration that you may not be communicating with him what you expect or at least my partial deafness can not hear, just a thought. With a spotter it is easier but I try to start right and have him from the first step and reward when he is correct.


I'm wondering how not using a NRM means that he's being rewarded? We continue on and I ignore it. I *could* mark it with a NRM and probably will more in the future, but if I don't mark it correct, then he is going to try something else to get the yes. In this case, once he fixes himself and falls into line, he gets rewarded. 

I do agree that if my communication was clearer, he would quiet up much more. The same thing happens in agility when the handler is being unclear- a jabbery dog! I am happy to hear that the forging may fix itself as well when my communication gets better. I'm hoping to find time to get together with Jane and Karlo soon to have some spotter action going on. 

We have been working on fronts for the last few days inside on the pedestal with food and he is starting to figure it out, it just isn't concrete enough to do off the pedestal yet. Definitely need to get on that!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm wondering how not using a NRM means that he's being rewarded? We continue on and I ignore it. I *could* mark it with a NRM and probably will more in the future, but if I don't mark it correct, then he is going to try something else to get the yes. In this case, once he fixes himself and falls into line, he gets rewarded.


Because it's a behavior chain. By rewarding a chain of "good --> bad --> good," you build in the bad as part of the chain. It's like having a dog pop out of the weaves, and then pop back in a couple pole later and rewarding them. You are rewarding his bad behavior with the ability to try again. You're rewarding bad behavior with action.

http://pvybe.com/disc-dog-foundation-course/week-1-setup-and-position/rewarding-with-action/


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

With heeling, make sure that you have the attention and focus 1st. For extended time. Then move into the heeling.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wildo said:


> Because it's a behavior chain. By rewarding a chain of "good --> bad --> good," you build in the bad as part of the chain. It's like having a dog pop out of the weaves, and then pop back in a couple pole later and rewarding them. You are rewarding his bad behavior with the ability to try again. You're rewarding bad behavior with action.
> 
> Dog Training Theory - Rewarding With Action | Pawsitive Vybe


 That makes more sense. I needed agility to dumb it down for me. 



Smithie86 said:


> With heeling, make sure that you have the attention and focus 1st. For extended time. Then move into the heeling.


 I think I do?


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> That makes more sense. I needed agility to dumb it down for me.



Hmm... I'm fairly certain I should take offense to that.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wildo said:


> Hmm... I'm fairly certain I should take offense to that.


But I play agility too! :laugh:


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## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Bear and I are also learning to heel, so I can't critique, but Patton looks great! That's really nice work.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

No doubt you two have it going on.

I also know you know what time of day it is 

by that little yellow sign in the background.

The sky is the limit for you two. The only

thing I can recommend is to train at different

locations/situations everyday, this is very important 

for consistent reliability in the real world.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

Willy got the response right. We want to mark during a good before it gets bad to prevent the chain of good-bad-good. This leads a lot less to clean up later and and prevents the bad from occurring. The only reason I bring up voice is that it was hard for me to hear tour goods or bad. I am quite sure he heard them but if we put a little enthusiasm in the positive marks then it helps to build drive to work for us. Keep up the good work with him.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

osito23 said:


> Bear and I are also learning to heel, so I can't critique, but Patton looks great! That's really nice work.


 Thank you! I appreciate it! 



Deno said:


> No doubt you two have it going on.
> 
> I also know you know what time of day it is
> 
> ...


 Thanks! What do you mean about a yellow sign? What sign?

We do train in new places and often as possible. Yesterday we were at a disc dog event for around 10 hours, and along with meeting a few of my friends and playing disc, Patton got to do a little heelwork, some retrieving of the tug past strangers, and work on long downs in the presence of hundreds of people and dogs in close proximity. He heeled with great focus within inches of LaRen's dalmation for a few moments and was rewarded heavily. 



szariksdad said:


> Willy got the response right. We want to mark during a good before it gets bad to prevent the chain of good-bad-good. This leads a lot less to clean up later and and prevents the bad from occurring. The only reason I bring up voice is that it was hard for me to hear tour goods or bad. I am quite sure he heard them but if we put a little enthusiasm in the positive marks then it helps to build drive to work for us. Keep up the good work with him.


That makes a lot of sense. It's something I'm trying to do better. When he jumped up at me like you mentioned, it was actually because I marked and he thought I was dropping the tug. I try to keep it a little more calm when we're moving so that it doesn't excite him too much and cause him to lose his brain. Maybe losing his brain and learning to work through it would be a better alternative.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I believe you said he is 10 months right now, if so he will mature and be a lot of fun. Once i feel like a dog knows the commands I build from there and like to try and keep it fun but the rules are stay correct and you get lots of fun, if incorrect we will work to clean that up.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> I believe you said he is 10 months right now, if so he will mature and be a lot of fun. Once i feel like a dog knows the commands I build from there and like to try and keep it fun but the rules are stay correct and you get lots of fun, if incorrect we will work to clean that up.


Yep, he is just a week over 10 months now!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> We do train in new places and often as possible. Yesterday we were at a disc dog event for around 10 hours, and along with meeting a few of my friends and playing disc, Patton got to do a little heelwork, some retrieving of the tug past strangers, and work on long downs in the presence of hundreds of people and dogs in close proximity. He heeled with great focus within inches of LaRen's dalmation for a few moments and was rewarded heavily.


And LaRen's Dalmatian was probably growling or whining the whole time.  I have one good son and one "bad" son, lol!

Patton has too much "everything" for me, lol. :wild:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> And LaRen's Dalmatian was probably growling or whining the whole time.  I have one good son and one "bad" son, lol!
> 
> Patton has too much "everything" for me, lol. :wild:


Haha he was not! He was a great helper, and both of your dogs relax a lot better when just hanging out than mine do!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Haha he was not! He was a great helper, and both of your dogs relax a lot better when just hanging out than mine do!


Sin can relax, he's pretty laid back and did you see how cute he was with that Blue Heeler puppy?! I almost died of cuteness overload!!! Draven growled at the puppy right away, but he wasn't terrible with Patton so that was a plus!


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Sin can relax, he's pretty laid back and did you see how cute he was with that Blue Heeler puppy?! I almost died of cuteness overload!!! Draven growled at the puppy right away, but he wasn't terrible with Patton so that was a plus!


I was honestly *surprised* that those two got along so well on leash. That's why I broke Patton away a few times to tug/reward. He wasn't being a jerk and neither was Draven so he deserved a break, too! 

Patton has always been better about meeting dogs out and about, but he can be a jerk to male dogs his size initially, and he's never met one on leash before, so I was skeptical. They both did great!


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Thank you! I appreciate it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Deno said:


> In your first video to the left of your kitchen, that little yellow sign
> with the snake.


Ah! Gotcha! I was looking at the second video I posted. lol. 

The Gadsden flag is flying on my garage, as well.


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