# Flyball discussion thread!



## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Here we can chat about the trials and tribulations of flyball!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Skywalker'sMom, flyball is a relay race for dogs. They have to clear 4 jumps, pop the ball off the box and carry it across the finish line. The next dog goes, and the best time with a clean run wins the heat. 

It's very fast paced and the good teams have really tight exchanges. It's really tricky to not be really late, but not go early either.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is a video I made for some family/friends in the Netherlands after a tornado hit a few miles from me and destroyed our dog training center. Fast forward to 7:15 (the video damage is just tree damage and some minor structural stuff, but my mom wanted me to record as we drove through to check on a friend), the photos of the training center are at the end. 






Our team is sort of screwed at the moment. I am actually lucky that I can deal without training for an extended period. Nikon is trained and can run in any position with any dogs/team. Legend is just a baby so we have plenty of drills we can do at home or with one other dog in a smaller space (box drills, passing drills, etc). Indy needs some work before she can compete on a team (she's done Preflight and Singles) but she doesn't take flyball very seriously and is just as happy to chase Legend around the yard, so I don't think she misses it. Our team has Nationals in 2 weeks and the team running in the National tournament has four dogs that have all ran for the first time ever since March or sooner! I'm not going to Nationals because of $$$ this year (I went to a really cool fundraiser tournament in the Michigan UP instead at the end of June), so again it's not the end of the world if I can't practice right now but I really miss it. I'm missing Nationals and a Labor Day tournament so I don't race again until September.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Wow that is horrible about your training building. Don't think I had heard about the tornado at all in the news. 
It's pretty rare to get one here, but there was a very tiny one not far from me a few days ago. They don't usually do much damage. 

Remember line judging a bunch of BP races. You should have stopped and told us who you were. We are pretty easy to pick out. 

Don't give up training with your shepherd, she can do it, might just need to use different methods than what works with a Border Collie.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Oh no  I'm sorry to hear about your training center. I hope it was unoccupied at the time of the tornado 

I'm leaving for school next month and "my" dogs are staying home. I'm leaving PA and headed to MI so I can't even visit on weekends. They are both very "green" dogs. It'll be interesting to see if they continue to progress at all with only 3-4 months of training each year.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh Liesje, that is terrible! I'm so sorry. 

Are you guys able to practice on the grass at all? Are there any other places to practice, maybe with another team while the building is being repaired?


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Caja's Mom said:


> Don't give up training with your shepherd, she can do it, might just need to use different methods than what works with a Border Collie.


 I'll have to see if I can find you guys next time I see you guys at a tournament.

My dog has a low threshold and gets really wound up with other dogs. She will get an upset tummy and one time almost choked herself out (she had to lay down) she was pulling so hard. I can't even take her on pack walks without her getting really worked up. 

This is her on her own a year ago, she was really good on her own! https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=306626096140820&set=vb.100003802953606&type=3&theater

It makes me sad because when I put the boxes in my van after the tournament we hosted in April, she started crying in her crate when she saw them. She loves it a lot. She's got a right hip that's borderline too, so that was another reason we gave it up.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

How old is she now, blackshep? I didn't even start taking flyball classes with Halo until she was 2-1/2, and she was almost 3-1/2 before she started racing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I posted these in Halo's flyball thread, but I'll put them here too. They're some videos from a tournament in May - I hurt my back first thing in the morning boxloading for one of our teams on Saturday and managed to race Halo that day but was too sore and stiff on Sunday, so a teammate stepped in to race her for me. 

Two heats with slo-mo box turns, Halo is racing in the 3rd spot:






One heat of each of the four teams we ran that day - we're in the left lane and Halo is in the first heat, racing 2nd:


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

She turned 2 the end of April. 

Cassidy, not a bad box for a big dog!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would not give up on that dog yet. Nikon did not start flyball until he was 4 years old. I tagged along with a friend because she said you can practice for free twice, and it was the dead of winter so I thought it would be good exercise indoors, even if my dog is just doing recalls. Obviously I got hooked. I never in a million years would have believed you if you told me that Nikon would be doing flyball, able to run in any spot on pickup teams with random dogs. No way! But he can! And he LOVES it even though he's not real fast (best time is a 4.4 something).


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm tempted to keep doing it, she really loved it. She's edgy with other dogs though, and when combined with the adrenaline, it was too much for both of us. I can't hold her when she's frantic like that!

She was having problems with yelping, vet hasn't been able to figure it out. We thought to just rest her (that's what initiated the break from flyball), but she did it again a few weeks ago.

I am going to take her in for a neck/tooth x-ray. If that checks out I might try it again. I dunno. On one hand I think flyball is going to break her (brain or body, not sure which will come first  ), but on the other hand she loved it so much. She cried when I put the boxes in my van after a tournament.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blackshep said:


> She turned 2 the end of April.
> 
> Cassidy, not a bad box for a big dog!


Thanks! The only thing I don't like is that she does go a bit wide, even though we work on over rotation at practice. The one thing that makes the most difference is if we can put pressure on her turning side, but we don't always have enough people to have someone standing near the box. And if we're working on passing with 2 or 3 dogs in the lane she usually seems to be passing into a left turning dog, and we'll have someone doing bumps (stride regulators) on the left side instead. 

If it's just her in the lane, we have the prop person doing bumps on the right, which works to put pressure and she'll do a beautiful, tight turn then. But at least she's never double hit, and she always gets all four feet on the box. I was chatting about it with our co-captain at the tournament last weekend and she said that maybe Halo goes wide because that's more comfortable for her since her back is longer than the box is wide, rather than strictly a training issue. She's a smallish girl at 55 pounds, and has nice compact structure for a GSD, but she's still a "big dog" for flyball, and has to contort her body to fit on the box, unlike smaller, lighter breeds. 

I agree with Lies, 2 is still pretty young. Maybe don't try her again right away, give her 6 months or a year, and see how she does. Since Halo is our first working line dog I wanted to make sure I had a LOT of obedience on her before I tried something fun instead. I pretty much trained the crap out of her in the meantime, and by the time I put her in a flyball class she was more mature and could handle pretty much anything I threw at her.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nikon is also edgy with other dogs. Absolutely NO desire to interact with them and if they get in his face or my face, they will get a snark. Yet he's never had an issue during flyball, never a bite or a fight, and I have team mates who are old friends and are oblivious to their dogs running wild and darting in front of (or even under) other people's dogs. He was crossed on by a crazy Border Collie during a tournament and not only managed to avoid her (even though it was HER fault), he barely acted like she was there, just came right back to me and didn't pick a fight. For him the passing into other dogs is what took a lot of time, moreso than being stimulated by other dogs running (that's more of an issue for Legend!). Nikon just doesn't like dogs in his space, so when he would pass into some of the larger dogs on our team, or other male dogs, he would hesitate a bit, sometimes even growl as he was passing (not that he was going to attack them, more of a "just keep out of my space" growl). Now I'm happy to say he has been passing into all kinds of dogs and has run every position on the team. At our last tournament, they kept changing the lineup and he passed into three dogs he's never practiced with before (we had a fast BC injured so Nikon got bumped onto the "A" team with our fastest dogs, whereas he is normally on our "variety" (multibreed) team).

With a lower threshold dog it just takes a lot of time and repetition. We have a young BC that was chasing other dogs or going after their tugs nonstop and that dog just ran Singles at our last tournament (when we have odd numbers we just enter dogs in Singles rather than trying to add a third or fourth team).


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Errow was around 4 when he started racing too. We haven't started any of our shepherds out as puppies in flyball. It's all drive building and control work until they are older.

It sounds like you have having all secondary obedience problems which is not hard to fix.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Once dogs are in the flyball "zone" they can blow off a LOT! I think that's what Lies is talking about with Nikon. 

Last weekend I was pottying Halo before her first race of the day, and there was another dog in the area that was staring at her and when she noticed him he started barking and lunging. She put up her hackles and started to react back, so I moved her further away. The other dog was still totally focused on her, even from a distance. He was sitting there giving her the stink eye while the owner was pretty much oblivious. We get in the ring and I see that this dog is in the same race. Yay.  

Halo ran second, and just after she got to me and grabbed her tug in the runback area, the dog crossed over at the end of his run and charged right at her. He totally blew off his owner, and members of my team were trying to run interference to keep him away from her. 

And what did Halo do? She did not give a crap!!! She had her tuggy and was happy as a clam, even though she was ready and willing to snark back at him when he'd targeted her 5 minutes prior. She got body slammed by one of our green dogs in training in the same scenario a few months ago, and again she totally didn't care. 

When we're working with a green dog that has chasing problems or is worried about other dogs we'll just work that dog by itself until it learns the game, and then we'll add another dog just out there, but not doing anything, at a distance the dog can handle, before we even attempt to put a dog in the other lane or work on passing or anything. We want the dog to be happy and having fun before we start to increase the distractions and difficulty. Continuing to stress it out isn't helping the training to progress. 

If that's not something your club typically does, you might discuss it with them and see if they're willing to try it. You may find that by the time you start adding other dogs to the equation she's so into it that she doesn't care anymore.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

My dog is totally obsessed with other dogs, has been since I got her. She would bark at other dogs even when she was 9 weeks old. First she snarks at them, then she wants to play and she's obnoxious about it. It's hard to get her brain past that. She's ok if everyone is leashed and nobody does anything exciting. She doesn't snark at dogs she knows. And if they don't stare at her. lol

I've done SO much obedience with this dog, it's crazy. Granted, I'm a novice handler, so I know I make mistakes. She's been in classes of some form or another since she was 10 weeks old. No trainers have been able to help me with her dog issues, because in class she can do all the new things we're learning with ease and they think she's fine (unless they do recalls too close). I even went to a behaviourist. I'd be over the moon if she could just be neutral to them!

Liesje, that gives me some hope. 

She's good on her own, as you can see. What we were trying to do was hold her while a BC did a run, then send her down after the BC handler had a hold of their dog, but she goes wild when the other dog is running, not barking to have her turn, but barking at the other dog, if that makes sense? She loves flyball, but she is more interested in the other dog than in the flyball, if you understand what I'm saying?

Argh!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think I get it, I'm just brain storming over here.... I mean, she looks real nice so if her health checks out, it would be a shame for her not to do it. If you run in U-FLI you can enter Pre-Flight with her right now (basically you're paying a little bit and get 7 minutes of ring time, usually during the lunch break or before the regular racing starts, and you can do whatever you want). My GSDs are not real dog-friendly but they do tend to have tunnel vision for *me*, especially as adults, so it's been less of an issue keeping them on me. Legend is a bit of a puzzle right now, as his favorite toys are frisbees which is not practical at all for flyball so I'll be working to get him on a tug, but he's such a baby we have so much time.

What do you do if she chases another dog? Sometimes we will work recalls with some ring gating between the lanes, so the dogs can see each other but have a physical barrier. We slowly take the sections out and have extra people stand around and if one dog starts to chase, they get very stern verbal corrections from people who step in and only get positive praise/reward from the owner/handler. We'll start to stagger releases with two dogs, and also have someone else hold the dog while the owner is up near the box calling and running their dog into and off the box.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I've never given her the opportunity to chase another dog, she's never run at the same time as one. The closest we've come is a dog runs, then she runs. Never loose together, never anyone in the other lane.

The fencing is a good idea, although I'd be scared she'd jump it


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Start her off slow with doing box work as another dog is in the other lane. People should be able to grab her, if she strays. Then move to 1 jump, 2 jumps etc. 
Leave a tab on her if you have to. 

It really isn't a big deal and can be dealt with. 

Both teams I have been on do head to head racing before other dogs are in the same lane.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You also have to have a certain level of confidence in her and yourself. Our team is really big on ALWAYS working dogs together. In the past, we would start green dogs on their own, and not work in other dogs until they were basically doing full runs. Then we watched some really good teams train and switched it around. Now we try to always have two dogs working, especially if they are puppies or green dogs. We will pull out whatever props or grab extra people if we need to. We've even done chase recalls where we have 4-5 dogs at the box and they are released in basically half a second intervals and have to deal with that and go to THEIR owner. We also have added in passing drills where we take an extra wide single jump, have 4 people, and have 2 dogs, one on each side and have them jump over at the same time, facing each other (we start staggered so one dog goes and then the other one, and close the gap until they are moved farther out from the jump and released at the same time). If our dogs cross over and try to chase they get corrected big time, not a big physical correction but the people standing around will step into them and give them a huge "NO!!!" and when they go back to their lane/owner, then they get a huge party.

Even dogs that can do full runs on their own need to learn it in pieces, so start staggering recalls with two dogs, box work with two dogs, etc.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think I'm just so terrified that she'll hurt another dog. She's so intense and powerful and she doesn't think when she gets wound up. You're probably right though.

I always though she had dog aggression issues, but I realized it was more of a frustrated greeter type of thing and that she's bossy, so if a dog is staring at her, she takes offense. I could see it escalating with her for sure, but I think in 99% of cases, once she gets it out of her system, she's ok, depending on how the other dog reacts.

I think sometimes I underestimate her. At least I hope I do. lol


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

My GSD can also be snarky with other dogs. In fact, he used to be very reactive (from about 50 yards away he would react to a dog that looked at him funny). He started calming down around 4 with lots of work and exposure to dog events. He has done some basic passing drills and rapid recalls with other dogs and boxwork with dogs doing boxwork in the other lane successfully. He also gets the "tunnel vision" that Liesje and Cassidy's Mom wrote about. So keep the faith blackshep. All is not lost


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Flyball has really helped me understand my dog and see his full potential, not as far as a high level of training but being able to deal with the utter chaos and convince myself to trust him in that environment around the other dogs. I was so worried at first and assumed we were doing it just for exercise but after my first tournament, I was hooked. It's the first thing I've done (including being a competitive gymnast) where I actually enjoy the competition MORE than the training (but I do really enjoy training and I love my team). Normally I get really anxious about any sort of competition, but I love the challenge of flyball. It looks so easy but it's really what you make of it and I nitpick every detail. Of course the ever changing rotation of team dogs and pickup teams mean you can never get complacent, there's always a new challenge as far as passing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blackshep said:


> She's good on her own, as you can see. What we were trying to do was hold her while a BC did a run, then send her down after the BC handler had a hold of their dog, but she goes wild when the other dog is running, not barking to have her turn, but barking at the other dog, if that makes sense?


She does look really good, it would be a shame if you are never able to get her to the point of racing. I agree with Trish - we do head to head racing with a dog in the other lane before we even attempt a dog in the same lane. And even then it's staggered at first, but before that we'll do restrained recalls over the jumps with a dog in each lane, also staggered.

We'll do passing recalls on the flat, where there's a lot of distance between the dogs, and the first dog is already to the owner and on the tug before we send the second dog. We gradually reduce the stagger, so finally they're being released at the same time, and then we start reducing the distance between the dogs. I took this picture last month of one of our experienced dogs (Cannon, the ACD on the left) doing passing recalls on the flat with Antic, a 6 month old puppy - you can see they're passing in the middle, but there's still some space between them. 










How quickly we get to this point depends on the dog. Antic is very focused on her owner Mollie, so she progressed quickly, but with other dogs it can take longer. 



Liesje said:


> Our team is really big on ALWAYS working dogs together. In the past, we would start green dogs on their own, and not work in other dogs until they were basically doing full runs. Then we watched some really good teams train and switched it around. Now we try to always have two dogs working, especially if they are puppies or green dogs. We will pull out whatever props or grab extra people if we need to.


For us it really depends on the dog. Typically we move much more slowly than that, especially with chasers, because we want the dog to succeed. If they're too focused on the other dog, any work we've done on shaping a nice box turn can go out the window, so just like we don't add the distraction of a ball before the dog can do a nice swimmers turn on the box without a ball, we don't start adding other dogs until the dog can handle it without their turn degrading. 



> We've even done chase recalls where we have 4-5 dogs at the box and they are released in basically half a second intervals and have to deal with that and go to THEIR owner.


I love chase recalls! We do them with power jumping, where we set up 8 jumps in a row and then send two dogs in each lane in rapid succession, or if we don't have enough people for that, we'll do 3 dogs in one lane. It's great for striding, and the dogs seems to really like it too. If we have time, we do that at the end of practice. 

We also have added in passing drills where we take an extra wide single jump, have 4 people, and have 2 dogs, one on each side and have them jump over at the same time, facing each other (we start staggered so one dog goes and then the other one, and close the gap until they are moved farther out from the jump and released at the same time).[/QUOTE]

We had a sort of similar exercise we used to do occasionally, but we'd take off the inside uprights of two jumps, put them together to make a wide jump and run a long length of green plastic fencing down the middle of the lane between the two halves of each jump. The dogs would be released from opposite ends of the lane at the same time, so they each had their own half of the jumps, with the fencing separating them from the other dog. That was pretty fun too, it got the dogs used to running fast past another dog safely.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

My new challenge last weekend was that I was pass calling for one team on Saturday and two teams on Sunday! I don't have much experience so I was nervous, but I did start feeling more comfortable after awhile. I think I only did it for a couple of races at a tournament last year, and before that I'd done it at practice maybe twice, several months prior. I'm still not that good at it, but at least I'm not going to panic if I see my name on the schedule as pass caller at the next tournament. :rofl:

We didn't have a pass caller for Halo's team, so my passes were pretty conservative because we didn't want to be early. Both our Regular 1 and Multi-Breed 1 teams were the top seed, so we still won easily, so if I had been early and had to rerun her I would have gotten yelled at, lol. Actually, our Open 1 team was the bottom seed and they also won on Saturday! On Sunday they were in a 3-way tie for first, but lost the tie-breaker to take 2nd. At our tournament last month we ran 4 teams and all of them were first in their divisions both days, which was a little embarrassing.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Flyball has really helped me understand my dog and see his full potential, not as far as a high level of training but being able to deal with the utter chaos and convince myself to trust him in that environment around the other dogs. I was so worried at first and assumed we were doing it just for exercise but after my first tournament, I was hooked. It's the first thing I've done (including being a competitive gymnast) where I actually enjoy the competition MORE than the training (but I do really enjoy training and I love my team). Normally I get really anxious about any sort of competition, but I love the challenge of flyball. It looks so easy but it's really what you make of it and I nitpick every detail. Of course the ever changing rotation of team dogs and pickup teams mean you can never get complacent, there's always a new challenge as far as passing.


 I've noticed that too! It's weird, I have horses and HATE showing, but I love flyball competitions!

Ok, your pep talks are working! I have to check her out to make sure whatever is bothering her isn't going to be made worse with flyball, but I might give her another try.

Thanks everyone!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Some people spend years training their dogs not to chase, so it may just depend on how committed you are to working on it, and how supportive your club is. It's such a common problem in the sport though, so I hope they'd be willing to keep working with you.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh I gave up before they did, for sure. lol

Doing the neck/mouth xrays is going to cost like $400 :/ I guess I should do it though.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

blackshep said:


> I've noticed that too! It's weird, I have horses and HATE showing, but I love flyball competitions!
> 
> Ok, your pep talks are working! I have to check her out to make sure whatever is bothering her isn't going to be made worse with flyball, but I might give her another try.
> 
> Thanks everyone!







My current flyball challenges:

Legend - I need to decide how to shape his stride on/off the box. He is small yet (9 months, 49lbs) but I'm thinking he's going to end up with a double stride like Nikon, not a triple stride. It doesn't really matter to me except all the drills and prop configs my team mates typically used are designed to reinforce triple striding. Because GSDs are not only bigger, but *longer* (rectangular) dogs and Nikon has a long stride with an open shoulder angle, I'm kind of on my own designing how to shape and reinforce their striding. Normally with a new dog we make a "box" shape on the ground in front of the box (like with low jump boards or 1 or 2" jump slats) and train them to touch inside that box as they approach the flyball box and when they come off. I can get Legend in the box on the way in, but he's jumping over it every time he comes off. I am being VERY careful to pull him off the box with his head targeting low (the reward is on the ground) but it's just not looking natural for him to fit three strides. 

Nikon - Nikon ran in an anchor position for over a year. Our team had some people leave, some older dogs get injured or retire, so we really only had one team (and then a few extra dogs that ran pickups or Singles) and Nikon was one of the four fastest dogs at that time so he ran on the "A" team and always in the anchor spot. Now we've got 2-3 times as many dogs and are running 2-3 teams and some extra dogs so he is not always on the same team depending on who is running and where is time is needed. He's gotten lazy with moving over so we're working on reinforcing that. He does move over, but not as fast as I'd like. He's not used to a real tight pass into him, b/c normally the only time he'd see that pass is if another dog had to re-run and usually they aren't setup right to pass real tight. He tends to move over only as quickly or as drastically as the dog passing in forces him to, if that makes sense. But being a male GSD there aren't any dogs on our team that are anywhere near him in size or presence. We've used some really fast Border Staffies and a Border Collie with a death wish - dogs that will always run 110% even if there's a brick wall blocking their way, and he yields to them, but I want him to be that responsive for *any* dog. We've got some smaller dogs, or dogs that don't have the same drive and speed to really push him. In practice I tend to run almost up to the line, call him hard, and literally pull him off the lane towards the tug and really exaggerate it. The problem is in our tournaments there is NO extra space on the sides (no outdoor tournaments here). Last time, the ring gates were set ON the runback mats. I also bring a large stuffed dog to practice and if Nikon works on his own or runs in anchor position, I have someone step in and set the stuffed dog ON the start line to force him over. Both things work....when we're doing them. But when we put a little, slower, softer dog running into Nikon he tends to shift back toward being more oblivious and not giving the lane as far as he should or as quickly as he should. I may just be getting ahead of myself, as my team captain reminded me he has run anchor for so long and he is getting better, so perhaps I already know the answer is just running him in 2nd or 3rd spot every time and rotating the dogs passing into him and he'll get it.

Indy is always a challenge and I think I'm going to start over with her, but am waiting to get serious until we actually have a place to train regularly again.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Stiding off the box was a big issue for our BC x Whippets. The one who is running 3.4-3.5, he powers so much off the box, he's a 2 stride dog. My team captain kept trying to force him to do 3 and I told her, it's messing him up, you can't change their striding, and for a dog who powers off the box like he does, you're going to mess him up.

So he's a 2 strider. 

GSD's are definitely a 2 stride breed, I'd think, they are just too big bodied to do 3.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> My new challenge last weekend was that I was pass calling for one team on Saturday and two teams on Sunday! I don't have much experience so I was nervous, but I did start feeling more comfortable after awhile. I think I only did it for a couple of races at a tournament last year, and before that I'd done it at practice maybe twice, several months prior. I'm still not that good at it, but at least I'm not going to panic if I see my name on the schedule as pass caller at the next tournament. :rofl:
> 
> We didn't have a pass caller for Halo's team, so my passes were pretty conservative because we didn't want to be early. Both our Regular 1 and Multi-Breed 1 teams were the top seed, so we still won easily, so if I had been early and had to rerun her I would have gotten yelled at, lol. Actually, our Open 1 team was the bottom seed and they also won on Saturday! On Sunday they were in a 3-way tie for first, but lost the tie-breaker to take 2nd. At our tournament last month we ran 4 teams and all of them were first in their divisions both days, which was a little embarrassing.


Did you use an app or was it being done by eye? I just pass called for the first time this spring. I was nervous too!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Did it by eye. Is there an app you can use on the spot? I know some teams record the passes and then review them later in slo-mo (we never have enough people for something like that), but that wouldn't work for a tournament where you've got to immediately hold up the correct number of fingers so the team can make adjustments for the next heat, if necessary. 

We will sometimes record box work at practice and look at it in slo-mo, but we don't have the opportunity to practice pass calling since we'd rather use any extra bodies that we have for props. Some of our dogs use "go bumps", a stride regulator on the way to the box, some use "return bumps", stride regulators coming back from the box, and some use both. Halo likes to launch the start line, so if we have an extra person we do a launch bump 3-4 feet from the line.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Oh yeah there are a couple of apps. These days I rarely see people actually pass calling by eye. A lot of people use some app that takes like 10 frames real quick, or they just video and then slow it down (the latter is what the team helping us did at nationals last year). I don't know the name though since I don't use iOS devices and am trying to learn so I'm actually calling the passes by eye right now.

I can't stand not having a pass caller, it gets so frustrating in practice. In a tournament I don't care who does it, even a guess is better than nothing!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

At the box, does the ball pop out, or dog the dog just grab it?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Andaka said:


> At the box, does the ball pop out, or dog the dog just grab it?


When the dog jumps on the pedal it triggers the ball to come out and the dog has to catch it. The NAFA rule (not sure about U-FLI) is that you can use any kind of ball as long as it acts like a ball - it has to roll and bounce, and that unobstructed, the ball must go at least 24" when you trigger the box. 

At the start of every tournament there's a box check, where the judge checks every hole in every box to make sure the ball goes as far as it should. S/he puts a ball in the hole, hits the pedal, and measures how far the ball travels. 

We actually had a hole on one of our boxes fail the test on Saturday last weekend. We dremeled out the hole a bit more and it passed on Sunday, so we were able to use both boxes the second day. We like to have one box on each side of the ring so we don't have to carry it back and forth since it's HEAVY!

ETA: The dogs learn where they need to have their mouth when the ball is triggered, so it usually happens so fast that often you can't see it, it actually looks like they're just plucking it out.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This is from practice about a year ago - we shot some video from the boxloader's perspective, and I put together two of Halo's runs at full speed and then slowed each of them down:


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Yes! I would never be able to do it by eye. 

The app we use is called the Flyball Coach. It records many frames over a 2 second period. It's set up to do this 3 times in a row. Afterward you select the exact frame for each capture that you want, and you get your passes. You can use it on your i-phone or tablet.

It comes out looking something like this:









I know there's another app, but I can't remember what it is called.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think I would want to practice with that before attempting to use it at a tournament, but it's a cool idea! 

Are you giving passes after the heat is over, for the next heat? We give passes during the heat, would it be possible to get each pass on the spot so you could do that? I'm trying to picture how you'd be able to watch a slo-mo video to get a pass quickly enough to call it out before the next dog comes. 

I think I'll go ahead and download the app, it looks like it would be valuable for testing and improving my passing skills, which I could certainly use. A lot of our races aren't even close though, sometimes we win a heat by as much as an entire dog, so tightening up our passes isn't an issue. If we're winning easily and I'm getting 5 foot passes I'll just stay where I am for the next heat rather than move up. A lot of the time we win because we don't take chances on early passes, we go for consistency instead. It just doesn't seem like good sportsmanship to try and totally cream the other team if we're already winning by a second or more doing safe, conservative passes.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

We've used apps and video stills to call passes between heats. The pass caller runs over while everyone is collecting their dogs, or just quickly reviews and yells to us or hand signals. I need to know my passes so if they don't tell me mine, I will walk over to the line judge and ask my pass caller before I setup, lol. It's definitely easier to just glance over during your run and get the pass though.

U-FLI box rule is the same, it's got to launch at least 2 feet from the box. Luckily the guy who built and refurbs our boxes is at most of our tournaments so if we have a major failure we just grab him.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

We use apps as well. Anything that does slow motion is good or takes a bunch of shots in a series. 

There are a lot out there for each kind of phone. Personally don't think the coach one is very good no one on our teams uses that one anymore. 

It is pretty easy to call passes for slower teams 16 and up. The faster the team the harder it is by eye.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Did it by eye. Is there an app you can use on the spot? I know some teams record the passes and then review them later in slo-mo (we never have enough people for something like that), but that wouldn't work for a tournament where you've got to immediately hold up the correct number of fingers so the team can make adjustments for the next heat, if necessary.


 We use coaches eye. It's great for the really fast teams where eyeballing it is really difficult. You can also get your line to line times.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OMG our team is CURSED!!!! First, one of our best young dogs (who was probably going to run lead off at nationals) got hurt just playing around in his yard and is on rest for 8+ weeks. Then, our training center gets completely wiped out by a tornado. We finally get a practice/scrimage scheduled, albeit we now have to drive over an hour and a half to the training facility, and ANOTHER one of our dogs running in nationals literally ripped his leg open last night (no idea how) and had to be stapled shut. He can probably run at nationals next weekend but he can't practice this weekend so the 3+ hours driving and the team can't even run their nationals lineup.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Wow, really bad luck, Lies.  We just found out last weekend that one of our members is quitting flyball. She has two of our fastest dogs, and is also the Director of Behavior and Training at the Marin Humane Society, where we practice. We use the field for free, and also store our equipment in a portable on site, which may now be in jeopardy. All we've had to do before is make a donation to the shelter each year, which we've done by having benefit tournaments there, but that may not be enough now. We really can't afford to rent the field on a per hour basis.

Speaking of lineups, I was just looking at the NAFA site for the fastest times for our teams. We only have one Multi-Breed team, Stray Dogs, and there've been so many different lineups that the team is listed 15 times. Our Regular 1 team is listed 18 times, and Regular 2 had 5 different lineups.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh that really stinks you guys.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

That app takes stills instead of video. After all the passes are over, you select a still for each pass and can then tell your teammate's what their passes were. So you are telling pass size between runs.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Like I said, cursed! There is a family on another team, but a team that has always been very helpful to us. Last summer when we literally had like 4 people and 4 dogs on our entire team, they box loaded and pass called for us at nationals the entire weekend, and some of them train with us. I just read that on their way to nationals (this weekend in St Louis) they were hit by a drunk driver 3x over the legal limit. Their trailer and vehicle rolled. Amazingly everyone walked away except one dog is hurt pretty bad, everything is totaled, and obviously everyone is shaken up literally and figuratively. Please keep them in your thoughts.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is the dog that was hit, he is at a vet school now.

The Ultimate Dogsport for Family and Fun: United Flyball League International :: The United Flyball League Inc. is an organization formed to promote and better the sport of Flyball.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh no, I'm no sorry! That is terrible  I hope their dog makes a full recovery. I'm so glad the rest of the people weren't injured. 

Gosh, you never know what the day has in store for you, do you. 

Liesje, you need to try burning sage or something :/ You need to get the bad juju off you!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

How awful! How badly is the dog injured?

I hear about too many of these terrible incidents involving driving for dog sports and people getting in accidents. Freaks me out since I'm always by myself and it's always so early in the morning. I've pretty much decided that if I go to a tournament more than an our and a half or so away, I'm spending Sunday night and driving home the next day. My night vision isn't what it used to be, and I just don't feel safe driving home at night when I'm already exhausted from long days and too little sleep over the weekend.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I heard that his "back legs are mangled" so it sounds very bad. He's not a young dog, has been racing for 8+ years I think.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Omg.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I feel sick over this. This team has some of the nicest people I've ever met. They are a small team and like us, don't have a place to train together (two of them sometimes train with us, I think they mostly train with other teams where they can) but they have some fantastic dogs and one of the fastest dogs in the country (2nd fastest U-fli time this year).


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh no  Poor baby

I'm very sorry for your friends, how heartbreaking.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I believe Crunch the dog is now home. His rear legs were "degloved" which basically means all the skin ripped off. I also saw some wrap on one of his front legs but maybe that's just for IV ports. He will still need some sort of surgery. I believe some of the other team members who were traveling separate were still able to compete. Knowing the flyball community, I bet the other teams rallied and got a pickup team together or something. I am just back from two weeks away with very limited internet so trying to catch up.

It looks like I won't be at CanAm after all. The fees to enter teams is way more than what we're used to and some of our members are tapped out after going to U-FLI Nationals and car repairs, etc.

As for our training facility that was destroyed in the tornado, it looks like the owner of the building is going to rebuild, it will just take time. Luckily Nikon is trained and requires very little maintenance, and Legend is happy playing disc dog for now.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

So sorry to hear about you not making it to Can-Am, was looking forward to meeting you.

Here's hoping the owners get something in place before the winter snows come.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

degloved? OMG, how horrible. That poor, poor dog, I can't imagine the pain 

Well, I have my lurcher puppy! He's got quick little feet! 

My GSD likes him, although I don't let them play together, she is much too rough and he's only 8.8 lbs as of Friday.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Pictures!!!!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

This is what you get when you don't share your supper:
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z395/Conner2007/imagejpg1_zps5720eede.jpg

Watching a documentary on prairie dogs. lol He LOVES watching TV!
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z395/Conner2007/imagejpg2_zpsaa018796.jpg

Tired pup
http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums...6080672_7297406392363604407_n_zpsf7eab75d.jpg


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Fussy eater though. OMG, it's really frustrating. I grew up with Labs and my GSD has a voracious appetite, so this is not something I've had to worry about before.

I'm doing tough love, I feed him twice a day, as much as he'll eat in about 15-20 minutes. Not sure if I should offer a 3rd meal before bed? Whatever he leaves, he doesn't get more until his next meal. I hate doing it, because he's a really lean little pup and I don't want him to lose any weight.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Update: I AM going to CanAm and Nikon is on a variety team, but I can't do the all GSD team because we won't be leaving until after noon on Friday. I know someone who has a GSD she is planning to run if you still need one more. He's running this weekend and then she will decide if he's in shape to run CanAm.


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Sorry just saw this now. Work got insane and kinda let this go sorry. 

Will see you there!


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

After some debating, I'll be headed to CanAm too


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Can you guys take a few minutes to fill out this survey? It will be the first real research we have on flyball dogs and may really help us improve the care of the dogs!
Flyball Survey


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Have you considered using a Google Form so it's a lot easier to fill out and then all the answers are automatically recorded on a spreadsheet? I can make one if you want.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

I'm not running the research, but I'll forward the idea!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Whoever is going to CanAm, can you say what team you are on so I can look at the crating chart and see where to find people to say hi? I am on Fly By Night (FBN), we usually wear gray and light blue and Nikon wears a collar that says BALL JUNKIE. I think I'm leaving my other dogs home since I'm carpooling and sharing a hotel room with 3 other dogs.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

I'm on Revolution Flyball. We usually wear black and white. I will not have the dogs with me.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

My former foster Lily will be there (non-GSDish mix of stuff) on 2 Fast Fur U and her person is a great person if anyone wants to stop and say hi!

I didn't take this picture (I can't remember who did or I would give credit) and I always cover people's faces with bows when I post them. 

Have fun everyone! 

Lily - while not running...


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

We will be there splitting time between Instant Replay (black and green) and also Buffalo Wings, (black and red). Errow and Fyurie are running on BW multi teams. 

It doesn't look like they are live streaming the event this year, which is a huge bummer. 

Really hope NAFA re-considers for next year it's super popular.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is what I got re. livestreaming:

Livestreaming will again be available this year for CanAm!

Visit CanAm Classic 2014 on Livestream to catch all the action, starting October 17th!

Thank you!


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## Caja's Mom (Aug 6, 2003)

Thanks!! Looked around the Can-Am site and didn't see it linked anywhere. 

Didn't think of looking for it on the streaming site.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It was so great meeting both you guys! I wish I had more time to spend with you. I can't believe how busy I was even with us only running two teams!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

So jealous! It would be nice if the NAFA and U-FLI championships would alternate areas so it wouldn't be so far for those of us on the West Coast.  

I was at practice yesterday and our co-captain casually said "you know Halo's starting, right?" I thought she meant that Halo was first in the pairs exercise we were just about to do. Sometimes Halo is first and another dog is practicing passing, and sometimes she's second and I get to practice passing, so it was not an unusual situation. Then she said "you should probably start her at 40 feet", which I thought was a weird thing to say since it wouldn't really matter where I start her from for that exercise, it's the passing dog that matters. And then I realized she meant Halo was going to be running in start position for the first time ever at the tournament next weekend, yikes!

That was the first I'd ever heard about Halo starting (how would I have _known_ since you're just now telling me?!?!) - we have plenty of dogs that prefer to start and a couple that do best in anchor, so Halo always runs 2nd or 3rd in the lineup. She can pass anyone and take a pass from anyone, and not all our dogs can do that, so I figured she'd always run in the pack. 

I know it's probably easier to start since I don't need to worry about passing, but I'm a little nervous. I'll just have to trust what JJ says about where to start her from and then tweak it from there if it's a bad start or early. It will be nice to have an actual time for her for once though. 

Lies, where do you start Nikon from in NAFA? I know the lights are different than in U-FLI. We always release on the second yellow light.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

U-FLI tends to rotate venues for nationals but it's always somewhere central. I probably won't be going to CanAm next year though because ToC is also going to be in October, it was the only time the venue was open but it works out better for me (the normal weekend in August is the same time my family has been going to the lake for....almost 100 years! lol).

Nikon hasn't started since Sept 2012 and Falon started him, I'm not really sure where from, lol. He's been an anchor dog for a looooong time though sometimes runs in the 3rd spot (he started in 3rd this weekend but was moved up to the faster team and anchored). He did run Singles in January to help a club dog but I can't remember where I started, I think I usually start from 35-40' whether he's starting or passing in. At practice if he's starting or running head to head, I start a lot farther back than I do in a tournament (40-50'). 

I think U-FLI is changing lights to match NAFA b/c people like theirs better.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Liesje said:


> I think U-FLI is changing lights to match NAFA b/c people like theirs better.


I just heard that too, a day or so ago in a flyball training group on FB. The person who posted it said they hadn't seen it confirmed anywhere but they heard it from a judge who does both NAFA and U-FLI events. I've only done one U-FLI tournament and didn't even realize that the lights weren't the same. I guess I wouldn't have since it's only the starter that's affected. At a recent NAFA tournament there was a club that does almost exclusively U-FLI events, and they were having a terrible time getting a good start because of the light difference.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

One of our start dogs started all weekend at CanAm and she said she loved the NAFA lights (she's only done U-FLI with that dog). Another difference is I was told NAFA gives the dog's time line to line? Or maybe just for the start dog? In U-FLI the time always includes the start or the pass.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

For the start dog, you get an exact time in NAFA. I am not positive about the other dogs though.

This is what I did for a dog that I would start. She ran 4.4s-4.3s pretty darn consistently and I started her back around 47 feet at the beginning of a tournament and moved up from there. My release point was the 2nd light. Obviously there will be some inter-dog variation in speed and acceleration, but I thought I'd just throw it out there. By the end of the tournament when she was slowing down, we had inched up throughout each day and would end up around 45 feet, 6 inches.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NAFA includes the pass too - as soon as the returning dog crosses the finish line the time begins for the next dog. 

As far as where I release her from, I'm doing what JJ tells me to do so I don't get yelled at, lol! I was curious about Nikon because he and Halo have similar times. I think the lights go red/yellow/yellow/yellow/green, and everyone in our club releases at the second yellow light. I have started another dog before but it was one of JJ's dogs that's been racing for years so she knew exactly where to set me up. She'd watch my start time and have me move up or back, as necessary. I think Jinx is almost 12 years old, she's a "point and shoot" BC that we use with newbies to give them a feel for the sport while they're still working on training their own dog. One weekend I ran Jinx in start and was the only one with no false starts all day. I was pretty proud of that! 

I have all of Halo's lineup spots for most of the dogs in the club stored in a Note in my phone. No way would I be able to remember all that, and we don't always have a pass caller in tournaments, much less at practice. It's also a luxury to have a stable lineup for an entire tournament, always passing into the same dog, or even for one entire day! Frequently I'll have a few races passing into one dog and then a few more passing into a different dog.


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## Tiffseagles (May 12, 2010)

Ah, gotcha. My release was also the 2nd yellow  Have fun!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Tiffseagles said:


> For the start dog, you get an exact time in NAFA. I am not positive about the other dogs though.





Cassidy's Mom said:


> NAFA includes the pass too - as soon as the returning dog crosses the finish line the time begins for the next dog.


I didn't really understand the difference until this weekend - you're correct that while it does show the start delay, the actual time shown for the start dog is line to line in NAFA. What I didn't realize, since I've only done one U-FLI tournament two years ago, is that in U-FLI the start delay is added into the start dog's time, so you have to deduct it to get a line to line time for that dog. Makes sense now!

Anyway, Halo did well in start, and she ran her best time ever - 4.40! Mollie, who teaches our club's classes and is Halo's biggest cheerleader and the teammate I'm closest to, was scribing for Halo's team. In the first heat of her first race on Saturday Halo had a great turn, nice and tight with a good whip off the box, which is when she did her PB time. After the race Mollie came over and said "Did you see Halo ran a 4.40? Not just a 4.4, a 4.4_0_ - that's practically a 4.3!" I think she was as excited as I was, lol. Typically, her turns get wider as the day goes on, so her next best time was 4.53. 

The cool thing is that a couple board members came to watch her race, so I got to meet Haven & his wife, and Steve Strom and his daughter. Tom came to watch a race on Saturday, and my mom and step-dad came on Sunday. They've been talking about wanting to come watch for awhile but hadn't been able to make it until now. Halo had 7 spectators!

We ran 3 teams each day, and Halo was on Unfettered, our Open 1 team, on Saturday, when she was in start. It was our slow team, so Halo was actually the fastest dog on the team. I'm not sure that's ever happened before! :rofl: They were the bottom seed in a division of 7 teams, and we tied for 3rd, so that's not too bad. We lost the tie-breaker though, so our official place was 4th. Our other 2 teams were the top seed and placed first in their divisions.

On Sunday she was on Loose Dogs, our Regular 1 team, in the 3rd spot. I had one early pass, but she ran clean all day, and all three of our teams won their divisions. No new titles last weekend, she needs a little over 900 points for her Flyball Master Champion, so she should get that at her next tournament in the Spring. I did get her FMX pin that she earned at our club's tournament in June.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Awesome! I so wish I could see her run in person (or run with her) some day!!

I am going through photos from CanAm. Looks like Nikon was cheating on his box turns (he turns right and his right rear foot is in the crease between the bottom of the box and the mat!), but in one picture it shows him turning off the box and his front paws hitting inside the lane line so that makes me happy! Back when he had more consistent good box turns, he would often turn too wide off the box which was a little scary. Sometimes he'd actually knock the jump a bit. I like seeing him coming straight off the box up the lane and not wasting time having to gather himself or making a wide turn. One of the photographers got some awesome shots of me releasing him. He also appeared 3 times on the CanAm montage video (only dog on our team). 

I waver back and forth on what to do with him in the future....his back is a problem, it's kind of a loaded gun. It's not a huge issue right now (I don't think it causes him pain, but it does have some implications on how I train and warm him up), but it is at a high risk of getting injured. He loves flyball so much! Even being overweight and out of shape he ran a personal best at CanAm (other than his fastest times in start position) and ran several times on par with his fast times, right through the last heats of the tournament. I'm thinking I will for sure run him to his first U-FLI plaque and then see how he looks. I really hate being at a tournament and seeing an old dog that is almost refusing jumps. It's hard to know what is best when balancing the dog's quality of life and desire to run vs. what is safe and healthy.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That's so cool that you and Nikon made the CanAm video - that guy puts together the nicest compilation videos from the event each year. I loved the pictures too, really nice!

Halo is really good about getting all four feet on the box, but she hits it with a wide stance, so she'll usually have one of her back feet in the white and her other three feet above it. When she starts getting sloppy it's all about the rotation, and that's clearly where she loses time. We had people doing stride bumps in the warmups, and there was a big difference from the beginning of Saturday, when she did her PB, and the end of Sunday. Carrie was doing a go bump for Halo, and putting pressure on the right, her turning side. Most of the time I could see Halo making an effort to tighten her turn due to the pressure, but by the warmup for her last race of the weekend she came off the box and practically landed in Carrie's lap, lol. :help: 

At practice we have our bump people get into the lane, in the dog's way, to force them over - that's something we work on a lot. Our training has evolved quite a bit since Halo first started taking classes with the club, she didn't do any wall work until after she was already doing full runs with another dog in the other lane, and we didn't use pressure on the turning side as much either, other than a side gutter. Now we start much sooner, and the results are impressive. Our newest club dog is Mallory, a black lab. Labs are notorious for horrible box turns, but this was only her 3rd tournament and she was getting nice and high on the box with beautiful rotation, every time. It makes me sad, because I wonder how much tighter Halo's turn would be now if we'd used the same training techniques back then. 

I feel like Halo is still in her prime, even though she will be 6 years old on November 9th. She did her PB time 2 weeks before her 6th birthday! But since we started fairly late - she was almost 3-1/2 years old when she started racing, and due to her breed, her flyball career will be shorter than a lot of other dogs. If she's still racing when she's 10 I'll be thrilled, but she's never going to get an Iron Dog award, or a Hobbes, it's pretty much mathematically impossible. I know at some point I'll have to make a decision about what's best for her and her health and longevity, but for now she's doing great so I'm not going to worry about it!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

With Nikon I use an upright against the box on the turn side for every practice and often in warmups as well if there is a hand available to set my props. That keeps him tight and turning straight off the box. He's usually pretty good about getting all four feet up but being so out of practice and this tournament a new thing for him (different jump heights, different team dogs, even crazier environment than normal) I didn't want to wear him down in warmups trying to fix it. As long as he's actually turning (not just slamming his front into the box) I'm pretty happy. I also liked that his turn actually improved as the weekend went on.

We have a lab on the team now too but his turn is the best on the team. He's 55lbs and from a working/FEMA breeder. All of her dogs are serious SAR dogs, the one on our team is one of her first dogs sold for sport. I want a dog out of him or from his breeder!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I have to do a huge shout out to my flyball team!

We broke the NAFA record of 14.657, not once, but THREE times this weekend!

The first time on Saturday, we got a 14.639, well the team we were racing (Rocket Relay) got a 14.620! DANGNABBIT!!

But we had room to spare! Sunday, first race out, we got a 14.610!! Next race, an amazing 14.537! I can't believe it! I'm so happy for my team 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrs1TjboTHk&feature=youtu.be


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Wow! Those dogs are really moving! Congratulations!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That is so awesome, congratulations!


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