# food and bed aggression



## capella008 (Aug 8, 2012)

My GSD, Kora, has had food aggression issues since the day we brought her home. We have also had her in training since she was 8 weeks old. My goal for her was for her to be a therapy dog that I could use in my occupational therapy practice, but from the way things have been going I'm not sure that will ever happen…

She is now 18 months old and certainly listens well, is very intelligent, good recall, drop it/leave it, etc. However, she still has food issues and more recently, bed issues. It's not terrible or anything - she has never bitten or even snapped at anyone, but she sure does have a nice growl when someone comes near her food bowl. She and my husky mix sleep on their own dog beds in our bedroom, and at night when they are laying down and if myself or my husband goes to pet her, she will growl. No teeth showing, but a throaty growl. The dogs are occasionally allowed on our bed - when we say so - but we've stopped doing that because Kora tends to get obsessive about it and wants to be in the bed every night, which isn't going to happen. We do the whole sit and wait at the door every time before going outside, and she will walk nicely on her leash. We do use a prong collar and I think it is more effective for her than straight up positive reinforcement.

To me, this growling is completely unacceptable. Whenever we pet her on her bed it is nothing but love and praise, so I do not understand why she is so territorial about her bed. She has never missed a meal with us either, but of course we don't know what her life was like before she came to us (got her off of a family on craigslist). 99% of the time she is an extremely loving, lick-your-face off dog. But I also cannot trust her completely around new people, as she will typically bark at them and sometimes small children if they get in her face. She also always wants to fence fight with the neighbor's dogs and other dogs when we walk. She has definitely gotten better (we can walk past 2-3 houses with a nice firm warning and maybe 1 correction). 

I knew what I was getting into when getting a shepherd. I know she is still young and has a long way to go before she could be a therapy dog. I haven't really spoken to our trainer with these specific concerns, but I plan to do so tomorrow during class. But, if anyone has any suggestions I would be happy to hear them. Thanks and sorry this is so long!


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

My guess (I don't know for sure I wasn't there) was the food aggression caused a fearful or surprised reaction from someone in your family and the dog took note and began to use it as a way to "get his way" in that situation and it later bled over into the situation you are seeing with the bed. 

Stopping the food aggression early by hand feeding only, or other methods I'm sure someone will suggest would have probably prevented the bleed over, but now its there and it is what it is. It is basically resource guarding. I've never had the problem because I've always taken steps to head off it ever becoming an issue, so I don't have experience with the counter conditioning of the behavior, but I'm sure someone here does and will help, if your trainer doesn't already have an answer for you.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

You will probably get some conflicting opinions on the growing. Some people think it is bad behavior and immediately correct the dog for growling. I believe it is the dog communicating with you, and feel that if you correct the growl you simply teaching dog not to growl and are ignoring the underlying issue causing the dog to voice it's discomfort. Correcting the growl can change the state of mind of the dog, but it can also increase the stress and distrust leading to the growl in the first place. You can end up with a dog that skips the warning and goes right to biting.

If you are taking a nap in your bed and your dog jumps up and starts lavishing you with affection, you will probably growl at your dog (telling him to get out of your space). I think it's important to respect your dogs boundaries, and disagree with the opinion that every dog should allow every person in their face under any circumstance.

Some dogs have a personality that always loves attention no matter what (most golden retrievers). Other dogs need their space (aloof dogs in particular, like some GSDs). You can make the dog more comfortable with your presence around his resting places and food by building trust that you are not going to invade his space. Leave him alone while he's resting or eating. If you walk by his bed and he doesn't react, toys him a couple pieces of hot dog. You can do the same with his food bowl. Make some noise and call your dog away from his bed instead of pouncing on him to wake him up. Reward him for coming to you, and then lavish praise on him. In contrast, you can make him increasingly distrustful of you by continuing to ignore his communication and invading his space. He won't understand why you aren't listening to him and will continue to raise his level of warning.

IMHO, these behaviors are not connected to his ability to do therapy work at all. If the dog is comfortable around strangers in strange places and he's willing to engage with them without being stressed, he can do fine doing therapy work. Just like your bed is a special place to you and is different than any other place, his bed is his special place. There is a big difference between how he feels about his bed and how he will behave in the rest of the world.

Some good books on the subject: 
The Well Adjusted Dog - Dr Dodman
Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs - Jean Donaldson
The Dog Aggression Workbook - James O'Heare

All JMHO, 

David Winners


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

David Winners said:


> You will probably get some conflicting opinions on the growing. Some people think it is bad behavior and immediately correct the dog for growling. I believe it is the dog communicating with you, and feel that if you correct the growl you simply teaching dog not to growl and are ignoring the underlying issue causing the dog to voice it's discomfort. Correcting the growl can change the state of mind of the dog, but it can also increase the stress and distrust leading to the growl in the first place. You can end up with a dog that skips the warning and goes right to biting.
> 
> If you are taking a nap in your bed and your dog jumps up and starts lavishing you with affection, you will probably growl at your dog (telling him to get out of your space). I think it's important to respect your dogs boundaries, and disagree with the opinion that every dog should allow every person in their face under any circumstance.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> 99% of the time she is an extremely loving, lick-your-face off dog. But I also cannot trust her completely around new people, as she will typically bark at them and sometimes small children if they get in her face. She also always wants to fence fight with the neighbor's dogs and other dogs when we walk. She has definitely gotten better (we can walk past 2-3 houses with a nice firm warning and maybe 1 correction).


I would teach the dog to stop the fence display with the neighbors dog and cure the leash issues. You need some correction, and some reward when she does listen to you and ignore the other dog. 

I would also discourage the face licking. When there are issues with a dog it is better imo to take a more authoritative role and not let the dog jump on you or lick you or what ever. Then when the dog gets better you can allow it to resume but in your terms. 

I'm presuming that her going for other dogs on walks means she is lunging and not respecting you holding the leash. Tyler Muto has the best vids on leash pressure and control that I can find on the tube. 
Tyler Muto - YouTube. 
Once you start employing his techniques you should be able to have more control over your dog in different areas.

With food aggression i think you should build up an off command with lower value items and over time work towards actually being able to take a high value item from the dog. It really comes down to energy and how the relationship between you and the dog is set up. 

Really i would wait on the food aggression if i was you and concentrate on respecting your personal space(face licking), then leash manners, then the boundary aggression.

People can slag me all they want for recommending Cesar Millans book Cesar's way but I don't care, it shed some light on dog behaviors which I didn't know before i read it. He sets people up to be confident leaders of their dogs and i feel that is a good thing. Once you know more about dog behavior and can see the behaviors in action, then you can start to control the dog much more. Jan Fennells book was also has some decent info on living with dogs.

Basically ignoring and having some distance between you and the dog can be a powerful tool to let the dog know you are superior to it. Once it realizes it doesn't try to resource guard things from you or cause as much stress as it does.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

While you're doing the Jean Donaldson reading you might want to check out another book of her's The Culture Clash.

or you can go this route. 










I wouldn't recommend it.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

That was one of his worst moments but in fairness the guy aired it and put up with a lot of controversy over it. The dog had bitten before.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

There are 2 basic philosophies in dog training. 

You work with the dog.

Or

You work against it.

Both work to some degree. Both have their advantages and pitfalls. I believe that sometime in training a correction will be needed, so I implement them in a controlled way. For the most part, I work with the dog and try my best to understand what is going on to cause bad behavior and correct the underlying situation, not the behavior.

I try my best to work with the dog. YMMV

David Winners


----------



## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

My puppy had a bit of food aggression growing up and I took a similar approach as the one outlined in this link. Food Guarding

It took care of the problem within a couple meals and that also translated into accepting anyone she considers her "pack" (other dogs in the house, family members) to go near her food without any concern. 

I did it not just at meal times but random times throughout the day as well.


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

I saw that episode with c.m.I will say some of what he says makes sense; but that was dumb he challenged the dog; fight or flight! He was lucky some dogs would have really hurt him.we all make mistakes! No one is perfect; we can all learn something everyday. In this case I AGREE WITH DAVID WINNERS.JMO.BILL

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Alwaysaworkingdog (Feb 27, 2013)

Sounds like you have a dominant bitch on your hands, which isn't a bad thing, just when that manifests itself in behaviours aimed at you. Her bed aggression sounds like it's just an extension of her resource guarding. Dogs with greater rank drive and dominance are those that typically display this kind of behaviour. My male is very very very possessive and dominant, but submissive toward me, even so I don't bother him when he's eating or take things that I have given him away from him. In saying that, I'm careful with what I give him, I don't give him toys or things to chew on that I may need to repossess at any stage. But, alternatively, if he has taken something that he is not supposed to, I will repossess that item. So maintaining resource guarding is all about controlling your dogs life in every aspect, such that it learns that it's life resolves around you and not the other way around. 

There are typically two routes that people take when faced with a situation such as yours. They may try to stop the behaviour or avoid the behaviour entirely. Stopping it may involve pushing through the initial signs of aggression, so that the dog learns that aggressive displays will not alter the outcome in its favour NOR affect the dogs resource possession. For instance, some people advocate stopping food bowl aggression by bringing the dog high value treats in your hand and hand feeding the dog these treats as it's eating its meal from its food bowl. There are inherit risks in doing this obviously, but they do work. Even very food aggressive dogs can be helped by extinction methods involving protective sleeves and constant prodding of food bowls whilst a dog is eating, allowing the dog to bite and not inflict damage, but also achieving the two goals previously discussed.

Another option is to avoid confrontation in the first place, which is probably the safer option. This may have to involve you taking away anything that your dog is possessive over (potentially for good) so this behaviour no longer occurs. Take away the dogs beds, or downgrade it to something lower to the ground. Alternatively, rather than taking away the things that are eliciting this response, you could simply avoid your dog in these situations i.e. do not approach it when it is on its bed or eating. However successful this last option may be, it is obviously not the most practical.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Basically ignoring and having some distance between you and the dog can be a powerful tool to let the dog know you are superior to it. Once it realizes it doesn't try to resource guard things from you or cause as much stress as it does.


you and your dominance theories. i swear you must be cesar millans #1 stalker. 

lol i remember watching that episode. that bite was deep! 

imo you cant fix anything fear related with dominance or corrections. if you correct the dog for growling while eating, the dog doesnt learn anything. you are just covering up the problem. the dog is still insecure about you approaching his food/bed, he is just trying not to show it.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

David's advice is the advice to go with the kind of dogs he worked you don't want to fight. Most of us here probably wouldn't win if we tried. The raw dog ranch link looks good from a desensitization standpoint.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LOL... yeah Baillif. I try not to pick fights with green import dogs  We start training them at 12-18 months. Plenty big enough to pose a challenge, and some will come up the leash if you are being a jerk.

Edited: removed paragraph. Confused threads LOL

David Winners


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Firstly, 
I made my post with out seeing David Winners post and I feel he did have great advice on the resource guarding topic with much better recommendations. I feel my opinion on the boundary aggression and leash control/dog aggression is still valid and relevant to the op's issue. These are still areas which needs to be overcome.



> _Madlab said...Basically ignoring and having some distance between you and the dog can be a powerful tool to let the dog know you are superior to it. Once it realizes it doesn't try to resource guard things from you or cause as much stress as it does.
> 
> _
> Boomer....you and your dominance theories. i swear you must be cesar millans #1 stalker.


Whether you feel a dog is on the same rank as you or not, is your opinion. I feel dogs are below people. Dogs serve people or at they should accept clear guidance from their owners or something is wrong. It doesn't mean there lives shouldn't be great. 

Social isolation techniques can work in different situations. Look at anybody who uses a crate. A crate is a social isolation device. I don't use a crate so for me when I want a dog to have a time out or what ever I will simply ignore and not give any attention and use body language to block a dog and show them to stay in one place.

This can send a very clear message when done right as the dog feels left out and wants to rejoin the pack, but must wait until allowed and then on my terms. People should research for them selves any technique they hear about on the net and try to figure out why theories and techniques work in some cases and not in others.

My bullmastiff mix was human aggressive as a pup and social isolation was the best rehab tool that i found. When you don't want to dish out heavy correction or battle a powerful dog then ignoring can turn out to be a much better tool.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Ignoring your dog aka social isolation isn't going to fix resource guarding! That was the point you were trying to make and it's ridiculous.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

Social isolation and no food for a couple of days and you will see a different dog guaranteed. Letting a dog know it is close to being kicked out of the pack is a demoralizing thing for any dog and it will then treat the owner with a lot more respect. This is an extreme version but it illustrates the technique.

Here is another persons idea of Social Isolation. 

http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=petdogsl;id=5;url=http://k9deb.com/socialis.htm Social Isolation

Food Guarding


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Taking food away from a resource guarder for a few days will most likely make a dog that much more protective of its food. 

The OP has had the dog from 8 weeks old. It does not matter what happened prior. This dog was FA from 8 weeks? Well, what we have been doing for 16 months HAS NOT BEEN WORKING! My guess is the puppy was hungry and needed to eat at eight weeks old, and instead of giving the puppy its food and letting it realize that food here is not an issue, they probably tried to deal with an eight week old puppy by training it somehow, and my guess is that whatever that training was, was ineffective and exaserbated the problem.

The OP believes that the dog is unlikely to respond to a positive approach and has had success with the training the dog has been doing since 8 weeks old. But they are still needing a prong collar. 

What really bothers me about this situation is that they have been training for 16 months and have not discussed these issues with their trainer. Why? Has something happened that has made this come to a head? 

Starving this dog is not the answer. 

Isolating this dog is not the answer. 

I would probably replace the dog bed with a crate and crate her at night. I would feed her in a crate and leave her alone to eat, along with ensuring the other people and animals are not bothering her when she eats. Yes, that is management and not training. I think that I would do NOTHING but management for at least 6 weeks when it comes to the resource guarding. ALL treats or food would be given either in the crate or in a room where people and dogs leave her along. Then I would try a totally different approach to deal this than whatever you were doing.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

MadLab said:


> Social isolation and no food for a couple of days and you will see a different dog guaranteed. Letting a dog know it is close to being kicked out of the pack is a demoralizing thing for any dog and it will then treat the owner with a lot more respect. This is an extreme version but it illustrates the technique.
> 
> Here is another persons idea of Social Isolation.
> 
> ...


so your advice to fix food guarding is to ignore and starve the dog? a dog guarding its food has NOTHING to do with respect, guarding comes from fear. you should stop talking because you're just embarrassing yourself. 

if you want the dog to understand that you control the food then hand feed it. or put a handful into its bowl and when its finished it will want more. put in another handful. the dog will realize you are the one with the food and you reaching into the bowl is actually a GOOD thing. always add, never subtract. thats the start of building trust and fixing resource guarding.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Isolating this dog is not the answer.


Just for the record Social Isolation is not physical isolation. You do not have to 'isolate' the dog you just act like it is not there. It is a psychological technique rather than a physical one. The crate technique is a form of Physical isolation by the way. What I found when I used the Social Isolation is a dog sulking and feeling sorry for itself. It was the most profound effect I've seen on my dog. Not saying it is every bodies cup of tea but it is worth considering if other techniques don't work. 



> Starving this dog is not the answer.


I wouldn't suggest to starve any dog. It is established that with holding or reducing food for a couple of days is not actually 'starving' an animal if it is deemed in healthy condition. Many dog trainers use it for different reasons.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> a dog guarding its food has NOTHING to do with respect, guarding comes from fear.


My dog will guard his food from other dogs fiercely, but will stop eating when I say so. 

Why is that? 

My female dog will take food from another if she is really hungry. Never would she try to take food from me.

It is about respect.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I use food reduction to create value for the food. I want the dog coming at me with energy and taking it so vigorously my fingers hurt afterwards. I don't keep doing it if I see the food drive I want to see. They can learn to value food opportunities without needing to continue to keep them hungry for the rest of their lives. If that was the case I wouldn't do it. Stacking value on top of it with a food aggressive dog merely raises the stakes.

Social isolation for reactivity issues is equally crazy if that reactivity is fear based. A sterile environment with a young fear reactive dog doesn't fix anything. It merely magnifies that fear when the dog finally faces the trigger again. Social isolation can be used to calm a dog down but brief instances of it. It can also be used to create value with the interactions with the handler. You can store their energy and desire to interact with you (boredom helps too) and pop the cork off that like a champagne bottle and channel it into the activity you desire. 

In short it's best used to unleash the "crazy" not fix it.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Mad lab please go read David's posts again. Your theories are incorrect.


----------



## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

> Social isolation can be used to calm a dog down but brief instances of it.


How brief is brief? I used it for a few days and found over all a huge calming effect on the dog. That with strict control of resources goes a far way when looking for behavior modification.

It is a start anyways. Like a 2 week shut down. It gives the dog a new perspective.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

David Winners said:


> There are 2 basic philosophies in dog training.
> 
> You work with the dog.
> 
> ...


:thumbup:


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

As brief as 15 seconds. I don't really put a time on it. The dog can come out when his mind-state changes. 

I think I get what you're saying now. Do you mean groundwork in terms of NILF style bootcamp where you are extremely restrictive on the dogs freedom and schedule and keeping the dog tethered in the times he is allowed out of the crate to do his business? That doesn't typically involve restricting food. It definitely involves controlling the schedule of when and where the dog eats, but you wouldn't make the dog go without food for a few days in that case unless you needed the higher food drive for counter-conditioning purposes.

I could see that happening before you started counter conditioning sessions for dog v dog re-activity, and in that case you would do something like LATs or ask for engagement in the presence of the trigger at distance and if the dog reacted instead of focusing on you for the food, you would cut the session short and not feed for the rest of that day but would try again the next day and only allow him the opportunity to eat from the hand if he remained engaged and didn't react to the dog while in the presence of the dog. 

I wouldn't use it for food aggression per se, but yeah if you did it before counter conditioning for re-activity it could totally work. I know trainers that use that sort of thing to great effect. One of them was the guy you were intent on calling an idiot the other day... Either way though the counter conditioning still has to happen. The dog won't magically come out thinking you are alpha and respect you in all areas. It still isn't about "respect" dogs don't think that way. It's about creating expectations for behaviors and management.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Baillif said:


> The raw dog ranch link looks good from a desensitization standpoint.


Thank you.  I have used that technique on several food aggressive dogs and have been very successful.

It can be modified to teach a dog not to guard from other dogs, too. Use the same theory just add a dog at your side.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Everything in this post is related to adult dogs. I work with puppies differently.

IMO, social isolation can work for some dogs. I think it's more productive to implement a leadership program, which for me is NILIF and very controlled behavior. If a dog is completely blowing me off, I will include a couple of weeks of isolation. The only time I interact with the dog is to feed, break and exercise it. I do not do any training during this time. When feeding, I put the food in the dogs crate and then put the dog in to let it eat. I close the door and walk away. To get the bowl back, I break the dog and have someone retrieve the bowl while we are outside. I do not put the dog into any stressful situation if I can avoid it. I don't want a showdown with the dog, even if I know I can win.

When it comes to food resource guarding, I start with food. When feeding, I split the food into 2 portions. I put half in a bowl and ask the dog for a behavior it knows (usually sit). I give the dog 3 seconds to comply. If it sits it gets the food. If it doesn't sit in those 3 seconds, the food goes away until next meal time. If the dog was successful and got the food, I stand outside the dog's threshold and toss the other half of the food to the dog at the end of the meal. Then I walk away. I pick up the food bowl after the dog is crated.

For most dogs, I chose to tether the dog to me instead of isolating it. It makes every moment of the dogs life training. I manage what I must to stay safe and train what I can towards my goal. I use this time to charge the mark and teach basic manners, patterns of life at my house, how to settle and what behaviors get the dog what it wants.

It's never too late to implement a leadership program. Most behaviorists won't even start working with a dog until it's been through 2 weeks of leadership.

David Winners


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MadLab said:


> My dog will guard his food from other dogs fiercely, but will stop eating when I say so.
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> ...


It's because the dog fears the consequences it will encounter if it challenges you.

Social and spatial pressure are compulsive in nature, and for some dogs they are of higher consequence than pain. Forcing a dog into a corner and "dominating" it creates a fearful state of mind that the dog will remember. It's very uncomfortable for the dog and lasts far longer in duration than a leash correction. Once the dog has experienced this pressure a few times, it will shut down to avoid it. Some call this submission. Some call it avoidance and consider it a good thing.

Any time my dog shows a lack of engagement with me, I consider it a failure on my part. If I push a dog into avoidance, I remove trust from our relationship. I work very hard to have my dogs always look to me for the answer, not away from me.

I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong. We have different goals for our training, and want a different end product in our dogs. If you end up with the dog you want, you did the right thing. Understand though that our dogs will be very different in training and in the work.

David Winners


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

When some compulsion trainers hear the, you're damaging the relationship with the dog comment a lot of them scoff, because they don't always see or realize the costs in practical terms.

It is there though. For example the food guarding thing. If someone were to screw with a dog and take away his food for no other reason than to show him who is boss and it bleeds over into toy resource guarding and the way it gets fixed is to just punish the dog for growling over it, let's say that method works. The dog rolls over and gives in. Problem solved right? But the lack of trust is still there the dog just avoids showing his displeasure because he doesn't want the consequence.

Then one day you decide you want to teach that dog to do obedience for toys or even to just fetch. You build up value in the toy so the dog will work for it, then You toss it and the dog goes out to get the toy and then refuses to come back with it. You recall him he comes stands right in front of you you bend over and he bolts with it. 

The lack of trust and the possessiveness you created in your relationship in the effort to "be alpha" comes back to bite you. Now I'm not saying this is the only way you can create that behavior or this is the cause of that kind of behavior necessarily but it could be. Stuff like that comes back around.

Relationship between dog and handler is important. Especially when they are big confident and full of spunk. If you took a bunch of green dogs and gave them to a class of handlers and they started training immediately the day they were paired you're probably going to end up with some guys visiting the hospital. Give them the chance to play together and form a relationship for a few days before that and then start training and you can avoid a ton of bloodshed.


----------



## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

This sort of growl is a display of her fear to lose food and place to sleep, this behaviour has its origin back in the very first days of your puppy when she was born. Her mother could have very little of milk, in this case puppies are fed artificially and individually. The first born normally are larger and stronger, they push their smaller brothers and sisters, and the latter ones could be very upset about it, they growl out of despiration - she still remembers these days. Was she born end of August? Nights might have become cold that time of the year, difficult to find place close to mummy's belly - here comes your growling for bed space. These feelings could be felt stronger with the presence of other dog. *You should admonish her that there is no competition.* First, ignore her growls ( she growls because it worked before and works now) and try not to irritate her. She is not sure about her position in the pack, I think, you better determine it for her. It could be a good idea to "upgrade" her in her own eyes. Put her "above" your other dog, at least for a while when she grows. Feed her one meal a day out of hand when your other dog eats out of her bowl. Place her on your lap when your other dog is just next to you. You can imagine yourself situations when you can treat her as, not as alpha, but somewhat better than your other dog.Of course, it doesn't mean that you put your other dog lower.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Baillif said:


> When some compulsion trainers hear the, you're damaging the relationship with the dog comment a lot of them scoff, because they don't always see or realize the costs in practical terms.
> 
> It is there though. For example the food guarding thing. If someone were to screw with a dog and take away his food for no other reason than to show him who is boss and it bleeds over into toy resource guarding and the way it gets fixed is to just punish the dog for growling over it, let's say that method works. The dog rolls over and gives in. Problem solved right? But the lack of trust is still there the dog just avoids showing his displeasure because he doesn't want the consequence.
> 
> ...


No corrections in class for a week; physical, verbal or social. The first thing they do is hook the dog up on a long line and play around in a field for about 3 hours. Then they go right into easy detection work that the dog knows well so they have a very high rate of reward. If a dog needs a correction the trainers will handle it. Most of the time the corrections are for redirected aggression on gunfire or the dog becoming aggressive when shouldered. 

Handlers that think they know what they are doing, especially LE handlers that watch too much tv, get bit when they try and dominate their dogs. We eventually put a lot of pressure on the green dogs before they go to a new handler so I can have an idea of how the dog will react. Then we try and pair up personalities that we think will work.

I watched in terror as a 220 pound handler tried to alpha roll a 45 pound dutchie after it refused to out the ball. Luckily there was a trainer close so she was only on the bite for about 10 seconds. 


I laugh whenever I watch the beginning of the Dog Whisper. "No dog is too much for me to handle." I'd like to see CM kick a 90 pound KNPV mal the flank, fake bite its neck, and then stare it down LOL. You think that lab was bad! If that was the right / wrong dog he could have lost a finger or worse.

David Winners


----------



## alexg (Mar 22, 2013)

David Winners said:


> ...
> I laugh whenever I watch the beginning of the Dog Whisper. "No dog is too much for me to handle." I'd like to see CM kick a 90 pound KNPV mal the flank, fake bite its neck, and then stare it down LOL. You think that lab was bad! If that was the right / wrong dog he could have lost a finger or worse.
> 
> David Winners


The good thing is that CM has a very little chance to face a KNPV dog...


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

David Winners said:


> No corrections in class for a week; physical, verbal or social. The first thing they do is hook the dog up on a long line and play around in a field for about 3 hours. Then they go right into easy detection work that the dog knows well so they have a very high rate of reward. If a dog needs a correction the trainers will handle it. Most of the time the corrections are for redirected aggression on gunfire or the dog becoming aggressive when shouldered.
> 
> Handlers that think they know what they are doing, especially LE handlers that watch too much tv, get bit when they try and dominate their dogs. We eventually put a lot of pressure on the green dogs before they go to a new handler so I can have an idea of how the dog will react. Then we try and pair up personalities that we think will work.
> 
> ...


I thought the same thing. My dog would like his challenge.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that since he still has his face and all the fingers on both hands he would not go there with a dog like that.

It would be one **** of a show to see him try to fend a dog like that off with nothing but a tennis racquet.


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

My son would joke that c.m. the dog kicker is coming on. I would tell him one day he will kick the wrong dog.then they will call him the dog screamer. Lol.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

He handled the bite from that lab pretty well. 

David Winners


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Yes he did; He was lucky it was just his hand and the dog let go.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

He was lucky it was just a lab and not a pit mix or something with more teeth, or god forbid something that pressed an attack. Not that a bite from a lab can't hurt. 

Petsmart made the fun mistake of picking up a beaver puppet toy for dogs a few years back and my brother bought it stuck his hand in there and went to go play with his lab. Of course the dog doesn't realize it's his hand in there making it move and goes in there with a full bite and very nearly crushes his hand. Luckily the dog realizes what was going on and stopped short. That toy didn't stay on shelves long.


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Sounds like your brother got unlucky and lucky he had a good dog that realized he was hurting dad.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

The dog should not be a therapy dog. Find something else for her to do


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

bill said:


> Yes he did; He was lucky it was just his hand and the dog let go.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't know how many times you have been bitten, but the hand is number 3 on the list places I don't want to get bit.

David Winners


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

You know I've been meaning to ask someone this and since I'm pretty sure what at least one of those top two remaining places is you're as good a person to ask as any.

I've noticed that the mals love going for "the package nip" through the pants. I haven't seen this out of the gsd's but I'm not sure if it was more a mal thing or just lack of sample size not seeing enough gsds.


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I don't know how many times you have been bitten, but the hand is number 3 on the list places I don't want to get bit.
> 
> David Winners


Second that! Lol

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I've noticed it to. I can't remember seeing a GSD go for the package on purpose, but I've seen 3 mals do it. One was a bad bite through jogging shorts 

Just one more reason I like GSDs 

David Winners


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I've noticed it to. I can't remember seeing a GSD go for the package on purpose, but I've seen 3 mals do it. One was a bad bite through jogging shorts
> 
> Just one more reason I like GSDs
> 
> David Winners


speaking of bites, are you still writing about fama? those stories were a good read! sometimes i think my dog is the devil but after reading about fama, his behavior seemed like nothing lol. i read a news article that she is doing other things with the military now? hopefully you'll get to adopt her one day!


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Finishing the book up now. I wrote another 26 chapters. The DoD had a bit of a field day with the red pen, so I'm rewriting most of the second half of the book.

I'm really glad you enjoyed reading our story so far!

Fama is down at Fort Bragg working with an MP handler, so I'm sure she's bored 

David Winners


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

David winners sir.I was taught to train by a army handler. Would love to read your book! Are you still in Korea? If you are stay safe; and warm. P.s. would love to read what dod. Edit. Sincerely Bill.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

bill said:


> David winners sir.I was taught to train by a army handler. Would love to read your book! Are you still in Korea? If you are stay safe; and warm. P.s. would love to read what dod. Edit. Sincerely Bill.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks for your interest!

You can Google Fama bomb dog and read the unedited first half of the book in a few places on the internet.

I am in Korea, and staying warm is indeed a challenge. We go to the field a lot, but it's fun.

I'd love to release what the DoD edited, but alas it is not to be  

Sorry for the hijack.

David Winners


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

They break out the red ink because of TTP?


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

TTP, vague mission details, EDD search capabilities and limitations... it was pretty brutal. I'm working on making it a complete story again. It's hard to make the story work without details that the reader will want to know. 

I'm very close to making it fiction based on fact so I can just write it out and change details instead of deleting them. Names and dates changed wasn't enough.


----------



## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm no author, and my writing experience is generally limited to the god awful amount of papers I had to write in college when I was doing the whole political science thing (although I did take some short story writing classes in college...lol.) I used to love reading war novels though both fictional and those based in fact or historical account. Steven Ambrose remains one of my favorites to this day, among others in the genre. 

Despite that I would by no means consider my opinion in writing expert by any means, but IMO there will always be that subset of reader out there that would really enjoy the TTP part of it, but they are probably in the minority. I would guess that the part most are probably going to latch onto are the relationships, the reactions both emotionally and physically to adversity, your perspective on the people, the dogs, the work from a personal standpoint. The details the Pentagon is gonna want to scrub probably wouldn't be super critical to making it a great book or a great story that people are going to want to read. The parts of those books I still remember today weren't the who flanked who where at what time and in what village. That stuff was there, but it isn't the most striking part of those books.


That has to suck though, having a DOD editor scrubbing without any real concern as to how it effects the story.


----------



## Darkthunderplotts (Oct 28, 2013)

I do sincerely hope it gets published David


----------



## capella008 (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry that I haven't updated…my posts don't usually get so much attention. Also sorry again that this is extra long 

To clarify/update on a few things:


Yes, she was an extremely dominant puppy. We started "training" her in order to deal with these dominance issues with very basic things at a local Petsmart (please don't laugh, we didn't know any better). In the past 6 months we started going to a real trainer, where she did earn her CGC and have started to hopefully work towards her therapy dog certification. However we haven't been going regularly due to our hectic schedules. Admittedly, her food aggression issue has always been there and we have tried various techniques to extinguish it, but due to my school schedule and my husband's work schedule, it has gone on the back burner and we never really stuck with any technique to give it long enough to work. We started to just leave her alone when she eats because that was easier. When she was a little puppy, I did feed her by hand, mostly because she would devour her food so quickly I was afraid she would get sick. We eventually got her one of those slow eating bowls and it seemed to help. She now has a standard ceramic bowl. I should also mention that she has absolutely zero issue with my husky, whether it be toys, food, or her bed. My husky will growl at her if she comes over and doesn't want to be bothered, but Kora never ever takes issue with her. 

Here is how her eating routine is now: before she is fed she has to be laying down in the living room (her bowl is in the kitchen) and she has to stay there while someone gets her food and puts it in her bowl. Usually I go about cleaning up in the kitchen or delaying letting her rush over and eat. Sometimes I make her follow simple commands (I'll stand in the corner opposite her food bowl and call her over so she has to ignore the food and come to me, etc.) which she always does very well at. If she is eating I can give a leave it command and she will stop and look at me, but if I physically come over to her she growls. I can walk up to her while she's chewing on her Nylabone and take it away from her without much complaint as well.

Last night (which is the whole reason why I checked this post I had almost forgotten about) her bed guarding got worse. She was laying on her bed and was growling at me while I pet her, but I didn't correct her her or yell at her. I would say no in a sweet voice and just kept petting her. I put my face very close to her's, and she actually did show her teeth, which I don't think she's ever done before. That in and of itself concerns me the most. We do not have children now but plan to in the future (which I know will be a whole other ball game with her) but I feel like I should be able to get in her face if I want to. However, if I would go up to her now where she is sleeping in the living room and get in her face she would love the attention. It seems to be only at night when she is really tired.

I feel like she has a pretty basic understanding of where her place in the pack is. She respects us 99% of the time, but I understand the comments about face licking, etc. She is also the type of dog who will walk over to you 10 times a day and shove her nose under your arm to get pets and attention - any suggestions on that? Half the time I give in and pet her, but if I'm really busy or doing something I'll tell her to go lay down. I know she needs a better exercise program and that will probably solve a lot of the problems.

But overall I really do appreciate all the suggestions. I have some time off from school and plan on making her the focus of my break


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It's not working. I would give it up. 

Feed the dog in the crate for six weeks while you determine a plan that you can stick with that you will have faith in working for you. 

There are a lot of good resources in how to deal with resource guarding. One is where you hand feed. That wouldn't work for me, I don't have the patience. Another is to give the kibble, and every so often walk by and throw something tastier in the bowl. This gives the dog the understanding that GOOD THINGS HAPPEN when the person comes near my bowl. 

I don't know what is going on with the dog bed. If my dog was possessive of a bed in my room, I would get rid of it, and put a crate there instead. I would make a rule that no one bothers the dog if she is in her crate. I would not bother the dog if she went into her crate. 

If a dog is growling when I walk near her bed, the last thing on earth I would do is offer the dog my face to chew on. Sometimes dogs will growl if they are in pain. They are worried you are going to hurt them, so they growl when you walk by so that you are warned not to come any closer. Yes, you do need to be able to examine your dog. 

If you are convinced this is not something physical, but something she has decided is her territory, then I probably would look into improving my management of the dog and the environment, upping my leadership, increasing the bond through training, and providing the dog enough exercise whether I feel I have time to do so or not. 

It isn't well and good to let exercise slide with a dog that is having no problems. It can be considered neglectful, but probably most of us have done this. But a dog that IS having behavioral problems can't be neglected in this way. They need an owner who is committed to giving the dog what she needs or the dog is likely going to be facing the needle. 

The games you are playing with the food are not working. She is unhealthilily fixated on possessing her food because you are increasing her desire for it, and her value of it. I would cut that out. Set it down, call her in, and leave her be. With shepherds you really do not want to have unneccesary stress during meals. They can bloat. Why work them up, and then give them their food, and then hover around as if you are going to take it away. I would have the dog crated at night. In the morning, I would walk to the kitchen, prepare her bowl, put it down, then walk to the bedroom and release her and let her go eat. "Go eat your foodie." Done. If she needs to potty first thing, let her out of the crate, put her in the back, go in and put her food down, and then when you let her in, "go eat." 

I wouldn't do anything more than that for a couple of weaks, maybe months. During which time, I would become and expert on resource guarding -- not the dominance theory stuff which is likely to give you scars before too long. After you have reset by giving her some time without adding stuff about her food, then you can take the method that makes the best sense to your situation, whether hand feeding or dumping stuff in the dish, or whatever else, and start all over again. Avoid those things you have tried without success. 

Training with treats is fine. It is not the same.


----------



## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

capella008 said:


> Last night (which is the whole reason why I checked this post I had almost forgotten about) her bed guarding got worse. She was laying on her bed and was growling at me while I pet her, but I didn't correct her her or yell at her. I would say no in a sweet voice and just kept petting her. I put my face very close to her's, and she actually did show her teeth, which I don't think she's ever done before.


That's a very scary image. Please don't put your face right in hers if she's doing that.

I also don't think saying no in a sweet voice is a good idea. Maybe someone else will have another idea, but to me I want my dog to understand that no means wrong. Saying it sweetly negates that meaning, IMO. 

When I had these issues with DH's AmBull, she lost every single thing/privilege that she thought about guarding. I would also get rid of that bed.


----------



## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

you are seriously still trying to make her a therapy dog? seems very selfish of you. the dog is clearly nervy and not stable. resource guarding is very serious. the dog acts loving and will cuddle with you and be happy as can be one second and the next turns into a crazy dog that WILL bite you. my very first dog growled at 8 weeks old when i touched his side while he was eating. grew up to be very nervy and i wouldnt trust him around strangers much less being a therapy dog. here he is with his extreme resource guarding. he ended up biting two people. i ended up doing hardcore nilif and took everything away. in the end the dog still has to be managed. it will NEVER be stable and completely trustworthy.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

capella008 said:


> She was laying on her bed and was growling at me while I pet her, but I didn't correct her her or yell at her. I would say no in a sweet voice and just kept petting her.


While I understand your intent while doing this, I believe you were doing the total opposite.
When she is growling and showing her teeth and you are using a sweet soothing voice and petting her softly at the same time.....in actuality your saying "good girl....i like what your doing".

I too think you need to be very cautious and not put your face in such proximity. You really need some help from a reputable trainer.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, I agree "no" with a sweet voice is just confusing. You want to be clear. Not out of control, shouting, yelling, etc. Clear, direct, matter of fact, maybe with a lower tone or an edge. "No." If that is what you mean. 

Are you taking classes with your dog. 

I think you are right to be concerned with adding children to this mix. For now, you don't have the time/energy/whatever to exercise the dog properly. Adding a child will take up all your time. You will want your dog to be where you want him, before you let up on the birth control. Seriously. 

The good news is that you have identified what you need to work on, you can make a plan. And you can get this straightened out. And then with some maturity (a couple of years), and continued training and exercise to build the bond, you should feel confident about how he will be in any situation, then will be a much better time to consider babies.


----------

