# Looking for GSD puppy help



## century (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi all, I been reading this forum many times. But, this is the first time that I post a question.

I'm looking for a GSD puppy. So I was browsing online and I found a this breeder located in Illinois. Their dams and sires are just gorgeous and her references are wonderful. Her GSD Puppy is sale for $800. Just want to ask your guy opion. What do you think about this breeder? Would you buy puppy from her? or pass. Thanks

http://www.angelsindisguise.us/Angels_In_Disguise_Main.htm


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## century (Aug 26, 2008)

Sorry guy, I was misspelling "Opinion"


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Not many titles on their dogs nor in the pedigrees. One dog was breed before 2 years of age. I didn't see anything on their website about guarantees.

Personally, I would look elsewhere.

What type of German Shepherd are you looking for? Do you have any specific plans - like competing in obedience or agility?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Personally, I would keep looking.

Red flags I see:
A LOT of dogs.
Mix of lines (show and working) which can indicate a lack of focus in a breeding program, and just breeding dogs out of convenience. Or it may not. But definitely something that would warrant much discussion with the breeder to determine their exact goals and reasons for mixing lines.
Looks like at least one bitch is a long coat and from the pictures another may have soft ears. So breeding stock that doesn't fit the standard.
Most breeding stock are OFAed, but not all. And at least one litter sire, Dillon, is not yet fully mature or old enough to be OFAed (not yet 2 years old).
No titles on any of the dogs.


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)




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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

can't get a much more experienced opinion than chris'...you may want to keep looking...


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## century (Aug 26, 2008)

Well, I want a dog to keep my family company and guard my family every time I'm not home, and GSD is my first choice. And I know $3000 GSD is better than $800 GSD. But the best I can afford is $1000. Any breeder you recommend for around $1000. Thanks


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

A $3000 GSD is NOT necessarily better than an $800 GSD. 

For starters, you want to look for full health screening on the parents, including OFAs.

Training titles on the parents. This is important for testing and proving the temperament, nerve and trainability of the breeding stock.

Breeders who are involved in the GSD breed beyond just producing puppies. This shows dedication to the breed, understanding of the breed, and plays a big role in a breeder having the knowledge and experience of the breed and of their own dogs to make sound breeding decisions.

You can find good GSDs, from titled and health screened breeding stock, for the $1000 price range or just a little bit more.


You might find this article helpful:
Finding a Good Breeder


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## century (Aug 26, 2008)

Thanks Chris and everyone. If you wouldn't buy from her then I will keep looking. 
Thanks again.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

question, what is wrong with a long coat, I know akc don't allow them in conformation, ukc does and starting Jan SV is going to allow them be shown separate as long as they have an undercoat, I wouldn't get one from them because some of their dogs just do not look to standard (soft ears for starters) some looks to be more for pet homes than breeding IMO, the long coat (to me now) looks to be one of their better ones, more people at least in my area rather have a coat then short/stock coat, that is what is being asked for here and when they are in litters they are always the first to be placed and the others seem to stick around longer again this is just my opinion


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: mkennelsquestion, what is wrong with a long coat, I know akc don't allow them in conformation, ukc does and starting Jan SV is going to allow them be shown separate as long as they have an undercoat, I wouldn't get one from them because some of their dogs just do not look to standard (soft ears for starters) some looks to be more for pet homes than breeding IMO,....


Because long coats aren't any more "to standard" than "soft ears" NEITHER one is a "desired" breed trait.
(Don't get me wrong, I am not against long coats. I have had 3 myself.)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Century where are you located? If you add your location in your profile, we can suggest some kennels in your area.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

They will be part of standard with SV starting next year as long as they have an undercoat. I have one that is a UKC CH and we are going to start working on grand champion, he has beaten my 2 standard coats a few times


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

I checked out the website and I didn't see anything that stood out to impress me. Most breeders have dogs that "have a certain look" which represents them. I mean breeders either have show lines or working lines. This person had both. The kennel also didn't seem to have any type of goals on improving or training the breed.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Best thing I found is to be learn to be able to recognize a RESPONSIBLE breeder, and what that really means. With a breeding program I support.

With the fact genetics is alway in the mix for any breeder, frankly, the money I pay when I get a puppy isn't (in my mind) for the puppy at all. It to support a breeder with a program I agree with who's goal is specific and clear, ALWAYS trying to improve their lines. 

There are already enough good GSD's out there, and people just breeding puppies. If I wanted one of those, I'm not paying a cent to those breeders, I'd go to the shelter and/or a rescue. You can go to the Rescue site on this board and find more than enough puppies and adults there that need homes. 

Here's some of the sites I used to educate myself to separate the breeders so I could find the responsible ones that I will support with my money.

http://www.dogplay.com/Breeding/ethics.html

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeder.html

http://www.geocities.com/petsburgh/fair/1901/chart.html

http://www.jlhweb.net/Boxermap/reputablebreeder.html


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## century (Aug 26, 2008)

Hi Liesje, I lived in Houston, TX
Do you know any good breeder in Houston. Thanks


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

You know, some people just want a happy healthy dog and don't really care about lines and type and other stuff. If that breeder really does what she says on her web site, it sounds like she is breeding nice family pets. If a visit showed the dogs living in good conditions, I don't see why she would be a bad breeder. 

Now, the OP might be looking for something else for his puppy, but he says he wants a pet and a "guard" (I'm thinking just natural protection instinct), so how would this be a bad choice?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Who doesn't want a "happy healthy dog"?

Health testing is important to EVERYONE, regardless of whether they want a dog for a pet or for competition.

Sound nerve, temperament, trainability are important to EVERYONE, regardless of whether they want a dog for a pet or for competition. Training and titles are a way to test and prove those things in breeding stock, and an invaluable way to delve into a dog's inherent temperament, expose it's strengths/weaknesses, in order to make good breeding decisions.

I've never understood the thinking that things like health testing, temperament testing, titles, and breeders who are knowledgeable and experienced in things other than just producing puppies aren't important because the dog is just going to be a pet..... If anything, I think those things are even MORE important because many pet owners don't have the knowledge, experience or resources that "professionals" do, so if problems arise it can be even more difficult for them to deal with.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

+1 to what Chris said. I got Rocky from a pet breeder and he's afraid of children, thunder, fireworks, and strangers. A good breeder that does temperament testing and titles their breeding stock would probably not have produced a dog that has to be put in the bedroom when relatives bring their kids over and shivers in fear under the bed during thunderstorms, New year's day, and the 4th of July.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I agree with Chris. I've had people call over the years and when I talk about my dogs, OFA results, titles, pedigrees, etc..I've gotten "but I just want a pet " I'm sure every breeder on this board has gotten that response at one time or another 

Wether someone wants a pet or a working prospect-the bottom line is a good dog needs to be healthy, possess good temperament, confidence and excellent nerves. A family dog is going to be with you for the next 10 to 12 years and it's important to stack the deck in your favor by starting with a reputable breeder.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

are you sure your dog's fears aren't your fault??? socializing and training. was your dog like that as a pup? was he older when you got him???


> Originally Posted By: Emoore+1 to what Chris said. I got Rocky from a pet breeder and he's afraid of children, thunder, fireworks, and strangers. A good breeder that does temperament testing and titles their breeding stock would probably not have produced a dog that has to be put in the bedroom when relatives bring their kids over and shivers in fear under the bed during thunderstorms, New year's day, and the 4th of July.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadare you sure your dog's fears aren't your fault??? socializing and training. was your dog like that as a pup? was he older when you got him???


I don't know if you remember me, but I've been around this board for many years. I started hanging out here right about the same time I brought him home. I messed up on the "find a good breeder business" but definately heeded everyone's advice on training and socialization. I got him when he was 9 weeks and socilized the living crap out of him. Puppy kindergarten, Petsmart, giving treats to the neighborhood kids to give to him. . . all that jazz. So far as I know he's never had a negative experience with children or loud noises.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yep I remember you! We joined around the same time and even if you do not post much I would imagine you still read and would have to be a hermit to not know that socialization is important. 

There are s few folk on this board that have dogs that just are not quite right even with socialization. 

My first GSD came from a BYB, technically most would classify Kayos' breeder as a pet breeder but I was fortunate in that they both were and are inherently stable dogs.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadare you sure your dog's fears aren't your fault??? socializing and training. was your dog like that as a pup? was he older when you got him???


Pretty darn sure it's not Emoore's fault.

Plus, the sad reality is that weak nerves is genetic. Environment can influence how the dog behaves, and lots of good training and socialization can help, but the best environment in the world cannot fix weak nerves and make the issues go away. It can only manage and somewhat them up. Likewise, a lack of training and socialization cannot create a weak nerved dog. It's genetic.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

It's amazing how fast people jump into conclusion that any dogs fault is always a handler's fault.

A person with a weak nerved dog is always screwed no matter what. First screwed by getting a subpar pup, then screwed because even though s/he puts enormous amount of work just to maintain the dog on a level the other dogs are born with everybody assumes and even worse, voices their judgement, that s/he's a lousy clueless dog trainer and owner with a peanut brain.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

If I was looking for another pup I'd hang around some clubs to see what was availible, there's probably at least one breeder or a one time only breeder in the group, you can get a good puppy for a good price


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarIf I was looking for another pup I'd hang around some clubs to see what was availible,


Or maybe the local Tennis Court









Just having some fun, this is a very good idea!!

Back to my


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Deejays_Owner
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarIf I was looking for another pup I'd hang around some clubs to see what was availible,
> ...


Like said before Tennis courts are a waste of park space over half the year, fill them in with wood chips and agility and/or Sch equipment


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## DoggieDoc (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm also on a good breeder hunt as well (and have a gotten a lot of great suggestions from here ^_^) and i have to agree, despite the fact that I primarily want a "pet", nerves, energy level, drive, etc. do breed true from generation to generation and do affect how suitable a dog will be as a pet for me. I personally want to go to a breeder that seeks to improve these factors in his lines so that the puppy that I bring into my home will become a happy 15 year commitment not resentment. Additionally, if a breeder (especially of a large breed dog like a GSD) doesn't care about temperament, what does that say about his attitude toward physical genetic problems? 

My friend has a 1 year old St. Bernard that he loves like crazy, but b/c he just went to a breeder that seemed nice, he now has a young dog with severe hip dysplasia and aside from a possible FMO has to be on meds everyday, it's heartbreaking.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Something to keep in mind ...

Let's say Jane Doe decided to breed one of her girls (titled and health tested). She does her research and finds the best possible match for that bitch.

And let's say that there are 8 puppies in the litter.

Since Jane is breeding for highly competitive agility dogs she has high expectations on the puppies.

Jane will be lucky if HALF the litter meet those expectations.

Some may not have enough drive for her tastes.
Some may not be the size she wants.
Some might be too laid back.
And so on.

ALL the puppies are great puppies, with good health and temperament.

Any of the puppies that don't meet Jane's requirements would still make great family pets.

So that brings up the question - if someone is just breeding for "good family pets" and they only get 1/2 their litter that matches those requirements - what about the other half???


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Ah, Lauri they probably all fit the Pet category, it is pretty large.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

who jumped to conclusions? this is a forum where you can ask questions and express your opinon. who said anything about "lousy, clueless dog trainer and owner with a peanut brain"? being way off base and missing a point or a total misinterpretation of something that's so easy to understand can be attributed to a peanut brain. asking a question is not jumping to a conclusion (for me). in the future i'll always consider peanut brains but coming from a mustard seed brain (such as myself) don't expect much.


> Originally Posted By: GSD07It's amazing how fast people jump into conclusion that any dogs fault is always a handler's fault.
> 
> A person with a weak nerved dog is always screwed no matter what. First screwed by getting a subpar pup, then screwed because even though s/he puts enormous amount of work just to maintain the dog on a level the other dogs are born with everybody assumes and even worse, voices their judgement, that s/he's a lousy clueless dog trainer and owner with a peanut brain.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I didn't mean you personally and was talking about my own experience as an owner of a weak nerved dog but if you feel that being judgemental fits your personality and discussion style than yes, I meant you as well.


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## 24kgsd (Aug 26, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnarLike said before Tennis courts are a waste of park space over half the year, fill them in with wood chips and agility and/or Sch equipment


MaxGunnar...that goes down in my book as one of the best ideas of the year!


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