# Evaluating pup for Schutzhund



## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

I have been doing a lot of research about Schutzhund, and I am really beginning to take interest in it. My pup does NOT come from a line of working dogs, mainly American show, with some German influences here and there (my breeder has supplied the law enforcement departments with dogs in the past, and I was able to meet a 6 month old prospect they had...I have no idea if that means anything in regards to this). However, I feel like there's no harm in getting her evaluated. So my questions are, does anyone know how I can find local training clubs, and what are the cost estimates for getting involved in something like this? Thanks a lot.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

The cost for an evaluation isn't much - a lot of clubs will evaluate a dog for free or it may be the cost of one session.

I think John Soares is up your way - he is very good.
http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/

And here is a list of WDA and USA clubs across the country.
http://www.gsdca-wda.org/clubs.htm
http://germanshepherddog.com/clubs/index.htm

Schutzhund is not cheap







Training with a club will be less than with a private trainer but someone new to the sport might need more help. Costs vary greatly by club. At the minumum you will generally pay club dues annually and then whether it's required or not, it's polite to give the helper a "tip" when he works your dog. 

Private trainer costs can vary a lot. I did some private lessons when I was living in GA, and it was $65 for 3 phases for 2 dogs. Then I got back to NJ and it was MUCH more expensive.

You will need to purchase a few things - a heavy leash and/or long line, an agitation collar or harness, and a ball on a string to get started. But if you don't want to spend the money on that before you know if your dog is suitable, the club can probably lend you a harness or collar for your evaluation.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: phgsd
> 
> Schutzhund is not cheap


Ding ding ding! If we were strict budgeters schh would absolutely be a line item. I think cost is something people don't think about when they think schh is something they want to do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah it's expensive! For me the worst part is gas. Our club dues are very reasonable. Also since I am new I prefer to stick with our TD right now, so I'm not doing a ton of outside traveling or enrolling in seminars just yet (at least not ones with my dog). I could be paying a really good helper that several members here recommended but for my first dog I'd prefer to stick with one club/trainer and one method. Also it cost quite a bit just for me to get all the stuff - leash, harness, prong, long line, dozens of balls since they always rip off the string, tracking articles and flags, good boots....but once you have it all then it would be easier later on if you have different dogs and plenty of people have offered to lend me various things. Some people I know have used the same stuff for ten years. It's worth it to me though because I feel that by training in three phases and also raising my dog a certain way, I'm training the total dog. All the other competitive dog sports I've tried seem to leave me wanting more, like it's a fun activity but not really challenging me or my dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The club I belong to should raise its dues. I know times are tough, but we need the extra $ to get it where it could be-affiliating with other organizations, etc. The owner of the site we train on has put alot of $ into upgrading the field and purchasing equipment out of pocket. I hope the next time dues are due, we vote for an increase. I would also like to pay the TD and helper for gas at least. My pup hasn't really needed much yet as far as the helper work, and our attendance has been sporadic, but I feel to grow as a new club, we will benefit from more $ flowing in. 
On the subject of an evaluation~If you visit clubs and pay to work your dog at said clubs, you will know within a visit or two if your dog has the temperament for it.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17sI have been doing a lot of research about Schutzhund, and I am really beginning to take interest in it. My pup does NOT come from a line of working dogs, mainly American show, with some German influences here and there (my breeder has supplied the law enforcement departments with dogs in the past, and I was able to meet a 6 month old prospect they had...I have no idea if that means anything in regards to this). However, I feel like there's no harm in getting her evaluated. So my questions are, does anyone know how I can find local training clubs, and what are the cost estimates for getting involved in something like this? Thanks a lot.


supplied law enforcement with american showlines?? i doubt it


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlThe club I belong to should raise its dues. I know times are tough, but we need the extra $ to get it where it could be-affiliating with other organizations, etc. The owner of the site we train on has put alot of $ into upgrading the field and purchasing equipment out of pocket. I hope the next time dues are due, we vote for an increase. I would also like to pay the TD and helper for gas at least. My pup hasn't really needed much yet as far as the helper work, and our attendance has been sporadic, but I feel to grow as a new club, we will benefit from more $ flowing in.
> On the subject of an evaluation~If you visit clubs and pay to work your dog at said clubs, you will know within a visit or two if your dog has the temperament for it.


Also I think higher dues = more committed people. I bet there will be an increase. I think the men have some ideas cooking for a more official field, something about "building" blinds, etc...


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## Stephanie17s (Jun 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: phgsdThe cost for an evaluation isn't much - a lot of clubs will evaluate a dog for free or it may be the cost of one session.
> 
> I think John Soares is up your way - he is very good.
> http://www.johnsoaresk9training.com/
> ...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

There ARE American showlines that have supplied dogs for Law enforcement steve....may not be common, but it has happened


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Exception rather than the rule - I know of domestic dogs (usually BYB type, not confirmation show type) that titled in Sch as well....and a coated BYB dog who is a patrol dog in a small town - chances of him ever being sent for a live bite are about as good as me winning the powerball! But the community likes having a K9 that kids can pet!

K9's and K9 departments vary to extremes in what they want in a dog....some want a dog good for PR and very safe and non aggressive/reactive who will be more of a visual deterrant....all others care about is a dog "who will bark, chase and bite" ...while still others want a top quality, highly trained dual purpose dog....

Lee


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

I didn't say it wasn't an exception...but there are Am people that donate dogs to PDs...and they are taken. How often as patrol dogs, I don't know, but there seem to have been some successful narcotics dogs.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Stephanie17s
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: phgsdThe cost for an evaluation isn't much - a lot of clubs will evaluate a dog for free or it may be the cost of one session.
> ...


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: XephI didn't say it wasn't an exception...but there are Am people that donate dogs to PDs...and they are taken. How often as patrol dogs, I don't know, but there seem to have been some successful narcotics dogs.


yea its possible for any dog to be in law enforcement..you just have to look. but the possibility is slim


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Doesn't mean it's not there. Just saying.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

There are some German showlines that are in PD work and doing well, as single and dual purpose. Not many, but there are some. We brought in a few before; based on work ability, temperament, hips, elbows, spines. We based it on the dog.

Randy Tyson had a few of her own breedings going into K9 work, not just one or two. Kaos vom haus Tyson was a dual purpose dog that David handled in the San Jose PD; not a small town ;-)


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Years ago I raised WGSD's... basically sound temperament, socially secure. A bit on the soft side. Several from my breedings ended up on Police Forces, SAR, Advanced Obedience, Herding and such. They had as I said basically sound temperament. I'd question most of the other pups from the same breedings abilities under pressure. They made awesome pets, did well in conformation shows, handled advanced Obedience with great joy... but Schutzhund prospects?? Police prospects ??? Not so much.

Of 100 random puppies (with reasonably sound temperment) and 100 random pups from "working line" (meaning Schutzhund) the % of pups who would do well as street or sport dogs would certainlly be higher in the second group. Police depts test and train donation dogs from the public... the dogs are cheap or free... as opposed to purchasing one from working lines... and if they don't work out there's little or no cost involved. People wanting to purchase a dog for sport to train and compete @ high levels generally want a puppy, or an adult who's been imprinted from puppy hood in bite/ tracking and has a pedigree that indicates a genetic ability. They don't have the option of screening 1000 dogs to find the one like police depts do.

One concern I have is that the GSD is originally a HERDING breed... the conformation and movement which permitted them to run all day with their charges. Schutzhund was created as a test for soundness and such... and has become a HUGE HUGE sport. The question I raise is if the current Sport dogs would stand up to working a flock of sheep all day. Do they have the stamina and the gait to float across the field for 8+ hours at a time or are they becoming limited to abilities on the sport field alone? While there's a lot of awesome working lines who are "V" rated do sport breeders/buyers look for the overall conformation AS WELL AS the working ability for Schutzhund??


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Check this thread
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1132998&page=0&fpart=1


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

"One concern I have is that the GSD is originally a HERDING breed... the conformation and movement which permitted them to run all day with their charges. Schutzhund was created as a test for soundness and such... and has become a HUGE HUGE sport. The question I raise is if the current Sport dogs would stand up to working a flock of sheep all day. Do they have the stamina and the gait to float across the field for 8+ hours at a time or are they becoming limited to abilities on the sport field alone? While there's a lot of awesome working lines who are "V" rated do sport breeders/buyers look for the overall conformation AS WELL AS the working ability for Schutzhund?? "

Sorry I disagree with this assumption. The long flowing gait is so highly prized in the conformation ring, but that gaiting is not correct. The gait should be effortless. Most handlers and dogs must go fast in the ring to attain that "effortless" flowing gait---it is not an energy conserving gait at all! Many of those lines haven't truly been tested unless they are actually working sheepherding dogs or to the HGH. Linda Shaw has wonderful explanation of these gait styles http://www.shawlein.com and great illustrations. Often too, the ligaments and back are so loose, and rear so overangulated that except for "coming and going" agility to turn quickly or jump effortlessly is lost. 

As far as the OP requested. Most clubs should train the dog and not th pedigree. Find some clubs, give it a try and hopefully the club can give you an accurate assessment.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, my post is meant more to raise a question, rather than to make any kind of assumption. I never refer to the conformation show ring as being an ideal... LOL (intending a joke here) I used to do it, but it was kind of like trying to dodge freight trains. I always wondered why every other breed I showed were shown on a loose lead, but in the specialty AKC ring it was all done @ top speed and gawd help if you couldn't keep up as the person and dog behind you would just mow you down as the person had very little control over the dog. Saw a number of top handlers trip and fall over their dogs trying for #1.

(back to more serious post) Any single rule to measure quality of a dog for breeding leaves out some of the great things about the GSD. My concern was more about single minded focus on ONLY movement... or ONLY SchH abilitys... or ONLY herding... ONLY OFA... ONLY Agility .... Rather than see the GSD become limited I like and treasure its adaptability. CGC and Pet Therapy are to be as valued as well as a top competition Sport dog... and one who can do both even more so...


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Just because I have to say it, you're always welcome to look at videos of me working/showing my dogs.

They're always presented on loose lines.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Windwalker18
> One concern I have is that the GSD is originally a HERDING breed...


Actually, while a very common belief, this is not true.

The GSD was created FROM herding dogs to be an all around, utilitarian working breed. One that could still fulfill it's traditional role of herding, but that could also serve as a police/military, service, search, whatever else people could come up with dog.

This is the whole reason the breed was formed to begin with. To create a dog who had value and purpose in the future so it didn't die out as pastoral life gave way to the modern industrial age.



> Originally Posted By: Windwalker18 Do they have the stamina and the gait to float across the field for 8+ hours at a time


This is another common misconception, often perpetuated by those who use it to justify focusing solely on one aspect of structure and movement (that "flying trot") at the expense of others.

Actual herding dogs are not gaiting in a trot for 8+ hours at a time. Talk to people whose dogs do herd for a living, or look up HGH videos on Youtube. Those dogs spend FAR more time running, cutting, bolting, stalking, and just standing around watching than they do trotting.


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## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

Standing Ovation For Chris! well said!!!!!and so **** true!! wish more people understood what the breed is REALLY all about.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

So my question is...why have these dogs been deemed as a trotting dog?

I too watched the HGH on YouTube (Brix Eichenluft), and he did a lot more galloping. I rarely saw him gait unless he was following behind.

So how did our breed get labeled as a trotter?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

C'mon Jackie, you can't figure that out. Hint: If its not factually true that Herding dogs "trot all day long", and the dog was created to be a utilitarian working dog, then the herding people are not saying this, the working people aren't saying this, so what other camp has opinions on the breed often not based on practical knowledge???? I know you can get this!!!!(smile)


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

Strains of sheepherding dogs which the gsd originated from were used for herding/working purposes for hundreds of years and didn't need to develop a specialised trotting structure to do their work- that kinda structure only came about when they no longer worked them on sheep







doesn't make sense to me.....


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: XephI didn't say it wasn't an exception...but there are Am people that donate dogs to PDs...and they are taken. How often as patrol dogs, I don't know, but there seem to have been some successful narcotics dogs.


Many of the shitters and dogs that got screwed up back in the day ended up at police departments. Might be part if the chip they have in regards to Schutzhund.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Quote:C'mon Jackie, you can't figure that out. Hint: If its not factually true that Herding dogs "trot all day long", and the dog was created to be a utilitarian working dog, then the herding people are not saying this, the working people aren't saying this, so what other camp has opinions on the breed often not based on practical knowledge???? I know you can get this!!!!(smile)


I very much understand you mean the show people...but WHY then, was that decided? Surely it was decided before the huge split.

I can see why there are so many different strains though....


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Jackie

Was the GSD always in the Herding Group in the AKC?


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It used to be in the working group....during the switch IIRC it was at one point both a herding AND a working dog


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It used to be in the working group....during the switch IIRC they were at one point both in herding AND a working group


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Before the split there was no emhasis on extreme angulation thus creating the famed "flying trot". Now there were dogs in the sixties in the American ring such as Hessian Baldur who had an amazing sidegait, but these dogs were very balanced dogs that happened to have the physical tools for the nice sidegait. The split actually took the sidegait to an "extreme level" and the fable about the reason for this extreme sidegait as being necessary to herd sheep all day was created. Its not like it was based on many examples of these extreme dogs doing this all day herding. To the contrary it was purely academic reasoning, but the irony was as the gaits and angulations became more and more extreme, the temperament of the breed became softer and softer to the point that the dogs no longer had the "drive " to do anything for "all day". So in reality this reasoning was created to justify extreme angulated dogs as opposed to the balanced show dogs prior to the split.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)




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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

That's a good explanation Clif, danke ^_^

I personally don't care for extremes...but what my definition of extreme is and what another's definition of extreme is can certainly differ


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Jackie you are right about different interpretations of extreme. But the reality is that the conformation/working/and temperament are supposed to go hand in hand to maintain the dog in its rightful utilitarian role. This is what Sch was created for and specifically for the German Shepherd. Not to see how hard the dog bites as many ill informed people feel about the test. It was created to maintain the mental AND PHYSICAL (conformation) aspects of the breed.It was felt if any of the key components of the breed started to fall below par,ie the temperament, the structure, the size,or the drive, or will to work, than the sch test would weed them out and they would be eliminated from the breeding pool, as in most of europe you can't breed a German Shepherd without the proper titling(HGH or SCH). When the split came and dogs started being created that were below par in strutural dynamics and mental strength, than the powers that be modified the requirements of the title especially in obedience and protection. Now the powers that be will tell you these things were done for safety or politically correct reasons, but many could see that the new type of German Shepherd arising from the split was ill equipped to handle the original test. So modifications were made thus ensuring the slide in physical and mental coordination(remember they go hand in hand in the original GS) would continue to spiral downward. Well its been about 40 years since the split creating these dogs that are extreme in physical aspects(like angulation and length of stifle) and I'm still waiting for the majority of German Shepherds take their place again as the great utility dog. My point is that it takes temperament/physical structure/will to work/ to all go hand in hand. And when one aspect goes out of sinc others aspects will be affected also and then it is necessary to modify testing requirements or create fables to justify the dogs existence. Then you will have people pointing out exceptions to justify the creation. Its all very disheartening to me.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Excellent, if very depressing, post, Cliff!


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## Deejays_Owner (Oct 5, 2005)

Great post Cliff









The Root of the problem was & still is the *Almighty DOLLAR!!!*


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

Mostly agree with what Cliff wrote, 

As it goes though there has always been a split, even in the beginnings of the breed the powers to be promoted the breeding of weak nerved dogs because they had the looks they were after.

Also from what I have learnt ( those with more history knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong) in 1967 when Bodo and Bernd Lierberg got VA titles some of the other dogs entered from conformation lines that had previously done well in shows failed in the courage test and were thus put way lower down the line up, shame they did not hold that standard up


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1 This is what Sch was created for and specifically for the German Shepherd.


http://www.dvgamerica.com has a great article about the history of DVG, and some of it is related to what is being discussed here. If you scroll down the left menu, you'll see the link to the article. There were 3 separate organizations around 1900 that were creating tests that eventually evolved into something standardized...

There was a thread probably about a year and a half ago (at least!) about a Schutzhund video in 1936 - I can't seem to figure out the search function on here well enough to find it.







It also shows how different Schutzhund is nowadays from the original version...(even if you watch old BSP videos, you see a huge difference). 

Christine


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM <--There's the vide


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Another question - the person doing the eval: have they ever raised and trained a dog for SCH from a puppy?

A lot of helpers/training directors that do the eval have not.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Very good point, Sue.


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

This last weekend I was at the Tyson Ranch in La Honda where Joel Monroe did a helper certification. The training field there is very nice, the grass actually grows on the field vs. the MPSC field. We had lunch in the old dairy barn and it was decorated with all kinds of dog pictures, awards, and memorabilia. One wall had at least 75 pictures of police officers with their K9s, probably most Tyson dogs. Granted many of these were old, judging from haircuts but most were showline dogs. In the distant past I don't think it was as easy to get working line GSDs so showline were more prevalent.


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## charlie319 (Apr 6, 2009)

Having done some research before deciding on another GSD, I would contend that most sheepherding dogs fall into one of three groups:

1- herding dogs such as most small herding dogs
2- protectors such as many mastiff breeds (I had considered a Spanish Mastiff or a Spanish Alano) and other Molosser dogs to fend off four and two legged predators.
3- combination of the two, which is where the Schaeferhund falls.

Most herding dogs, when not moving sheep from pasture to pasture sit on a knoll and "guard" the sheep from straying out of the herd and look out for possible predators. When they work, they do work, but like in the military, there is a lot of sitting around time. Also they are supposed to be out in the pastureland with the sheepherder and may end up doing some other duties when not in their primary function. Unlike present day dog breeds, that are highly trained and specialized, in those days, the dog, regardless of the breed, had to wear a lot of hats. Maybe that is why Max von Stephanitz developped a dog that was a versatile working breed that could easily slip into many of the roles a dog would encounter in the countryside and in the homestead.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

The ranch is great.

The field at Menlo is due to the water table underneath and the clay. 

Tried numerous times to grow grass out there, to no avail......

And yes, when it was muddy and flooded, I have taken a few dives out into the mud.

It must be strange, with Mike M. being gone,,,,,


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