# Just because it can be done, should it??



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

A topic for discussion. 

There are some very talented trainers out there that are able to make bad dogs look good, make weak nerves look like strong drives, make good grips artificially, etc.,etc. The question is: What are we really testing, the character of the dog or the skill of the trainer? If schutzhund is intended to test the character of the dog, should a trainer make a "bad" dog look "good" just because he can?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I am not sure if the really good trainers are working "bad" dogs. I think they are working with a certain type of dog though and what is seen with these dogs depends on who is watching. I don't think they are hiding much of anything when they are in front of the people who know dogs. 

SchH was to test the dog but it has evolved where more emphasis is on training now. That started several decades ago.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Anne,

I am not talking so much about the dogs that some top trainers show for themselves (that is an entirely different discussion), but rather "client dogs" that are brought to them and they are paid (alot) to make these dogs look good. To me there is no question that there are some excellent trainers who can make a complete POS look very good on the field.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Again Art, I think it is who is viewing. The people who are fooled wouldn't know a good dog either, and the people who do know are not fooled often. So it really washes out.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Cliff,

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree. I strongly contend that there are some very talented trainers that are more than capable of "fooling" anybody within the confines of the trial field, though the dog's shortcomings are more than obvious in training.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I still don't believe it can be done unless the trainer has control of everything, helper, judge, conditions etc and even then, there are things you can see. So, to sort of answer your question.....if it COULD be done, no, it should not be done. 

edit to add: Define POS.


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## umzilla (Nov 2, 2007)

In retail that's Point Of Sale


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: umzillaIn retail that's Point Of Sale


That's right, it does mean that. 25 years I worked in retail and I forgot! Mostly I am trying to forget the entire experience though.









It might just apply in this case as well in the big money world of dogs and training. 

So, we can now discuss point of sale, ( I guess that's the trial field), for a POS.


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

Fact remains that short of outright cheating/scamming there has to be enough in the dog to work with no matter how good a trainer someone is. As my dad used to say " you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t son".


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Art,
We don't have to disagree we just see things differently. Like when I look at escape bites...full grips mean nothing to be and I don't really focus on the grip. I look for the body language of the dog in his approach to the bite and his actions while on the bite. His body language on the out, eyes, tail, apparent stress, is dog in visble prey, fight, defensive mode. All of these things COLLECTIVELY give me an idea of what the dog is. I have seen many many full grip dogs going along for the ride, get full points, and was obviously well trained, that made little impact on me. I have seen many dogs with strong stick hits hold on for dear life or kick up in drive, or clamp down harder to try to crush the helper into stopping. All three may have full grips but there are three different responses to the hits. Training will not change those responses. JMO


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## ramgsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I'll take the one that's clamping down harder to try to crush the helper into stopping.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You get a "cigar"!!


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