# Dog aggressive - how can I make this work?



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

My female is now 9 mos old. She has not had much contact with other dogs since she was 5 mos old. Then, she started to display dog reactive behavior, maybe?. Even at 5 mos, the dogs she was in contact with she barked just lower than their face, would quit for a a few seconds, wag her tail and sniff, then start all over again. She wanted to get to the other dog owner to jump up and get pets and it appeared she considered the other dog a hindrance to this. 

I don't think its fear aggression or fence aggression. She wants to get to the person. She is now to the point where I give her a whisper and she backs off or barks at a passerby (late at night transients) but if a dog is involved, I have to to get her by the collar and bring her in the house. 

Next week, I will be taking her to an outdoor cafe. I'm concerned about how to train her in this environment. It is where most of her socialization will occur. The owners and friends say "she'll be fine, we'll work with her". I don't want anyone petting her except for my dozen or so friends. Other dogs will also be brought there, if you already have a dog there, your good as long as it's staying in it's table space (which she will do). 

It's inevitable that people will want to pet/want their dogs to associate - I think to learn to tolerate would be for her, but I would discourage and insist if the situation didn't feel right for her to keep their dog at a distance. Am I heading for trouble??? Thank you


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Do you think taking her to a cafe might be a bit too much too soon? 

The most important thing to do is not to punish her for barking. Because then what you will have is a dog that has learned it is not appropriate to bark (but hasn't had any feedback on their aggression). And this can spell all kinds of disaster.

The best thing to do is to sloowly socialize her with what she can handle, and work her up little by little. A cafe may be too much right now. You could even try buying her a vest that says "do not pet" or something like that if you feel compelled to take her in public. If she is lunging and barking at people or dogs, my advice is to turn the opposite way and pick up a fast pace or jogging so she is forced to concentrate on keeping up with you and not to concentrate on other people or dogs. When she quiets, you can reward her with a pat or a good girl.

Continue doing this, along with more trips outdoors, and soon she will be desensitized to others. At least this was my experience, and it worked for me. NOW, if it doesn't work, and she is too wound up even after several times, you might need a different training tactic which I am sure other people can comment on. I would try the easiest first and work your way up until you find what works for her. Please keep us updated and let us know how it goes!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Do you think taking her to a cafe might be a bit too much too soon?
> 
> The most important thing to do is not to punish her for barking. Because then what you will have is a dog that has learned it is not appropriate to bark (but hasn't had any feedback on their aggression). And this can spell all kinds of disaster.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Barbie - We are in the Northern climes so although the tables and chairs are going outside as of St Patties Day, it will be 8 or so weeks before more than myself and one or two other people are outside. This gives us time to give her familiarity with the area before more than a couple of people are there. That's why the owners, workers and friends are willing to help - it will just be us out there for the first couple of months. 

I've almost hit the "buy it now button" so many times on the "do not pet" or "dog in training" vest on Amazon - thanks - I'm going to get it. 

The "not punish her for barking - exactly!- I'm just training her to guard the house and yard now, that's the last thing I want to do. She is at the point now, that I am able to tell her when she's alerting (no- it's ok) or (good girl - I'll join in and bark with you!). :laugh: Every time alert barks come out of her she looks kinda startled and eye locks with me - she gets the "good girl" and wags her tail, just have to temper it because it can get to agressive quick and be hard to reverse.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I think the cafe is too much. I would not put her in that position. I don't understand why she even needs to socialize in such an environment. My dogs don't need to meet every person or dog on the street. I allow them to meet very few. I'm tired of people who have no control over their dogs. My dogs don't need bad experiences. So - we walk. Attention on me. Let's go! Leave it! Keep walking. If I'm darned sure another dog is stable or a person really wants to meet my dog, I'm fine with that. Otherwise, I'm not interested.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would work on engagement, and focus before putting her into an environment that may overwhelm her. LAT and other foundation from the control unleashed book may be of help too.
CONTROL UNLEASHED - CREATING A FOCUSED AND CONFIDENT DOG - Dog Training and Behavior - Dogwise.com


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I think the cafe is too much. I would not put her in that position. I don't understand why she even needs to socialize in such an environment. My dogs don't need to meet every person or dog on the street. I allow them to meet very few. I'm tired of people who have no control over their dogs. My dogs don't need bad experiences. So - we walk. Attention on me. Let's go! Leave it! Keep walking. If I'm darned sure another dog is stable or a person really wants to meet my dog, I'm fine with that. Otherwise, I'm not interested.


Well, the reason for going there is that is the only place I go 2 times per week. I have PTSD, live by myself, can't drive and this place is at the end of my block. So this is very important to me.

I am very good friends with the owners and employees. They were tremendously supportive of my bringing a dog into my life. It is a small place. When my pup was 15 weeks old, I took her there and she absolutely loved everyone.
I've brought her by their on her walks this winter and they always have a dog treat or hug to give her. My pup is not afraid of anything, she is not fearful and she loves people!


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

I'm not sure if this helps but I think it is related,

Any time there is a cluster of people or dogs and you sense she is anxious (hackles up, tension on leash) immediately loosen leash and disengage by walking away with her, call her to you and you both need to take a few steps away from all the commotion. Most dog fights or bites happen because the owner is putting tension on leash and e dog can sense it, or the owner is leaving the dog in a situation that they are tense in and can not handle. So the best thing to do is walk away with your dog for a few seconds. Allow them to cool down. If you don't think they can handle it, do not rejoin the group. 

I have had times where I could sense other dogs tense around captain, him scared, trying to avoid them, (dogs that were off leash and ran up to us) so I would give slack on the leash and I would walk away calling him to me, until the other dog owners could handle their dog. This avoided many dog fights.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

So you are encouraging the dog to be reactive, and wanting it to not be reactive. 

I would back off the teaching her to guard the house and yard. She will do that naturally, or you can encourage it later. Right now, you are just confusing her IMO.


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## dmom (Jul 2, 2009)

I have been working with my boy since he was a pup hoping to use him as a service dog. I have used place by my chair/side and leave it when he focuses in on something there be it person or critter. On leash or working he is dog/people neutral pays no attention to them at all. I will let you know that a working dog don't pet me vest seems to invite people to do just the opposite. It actually works better if you give off don't touch my dog vibe and I actually use that Ahhhh-Ahhhhh noise on people to stop them. It works.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILORIf 's advice among others, is sound advise! I'm basically going to say the same thing but I'm not so good at the gentle approach thing so.... 

If I were to write an essay on "how to wreck your dog" it would include "exactly what you are planning on doing!" 
Your plan is to put this dog into situation for which she is both untrained and uncomfortable! 

What is the hurry?? At 9 months you are right on the border line when "real" troubles show up!

If your dog already has "dog reactivity Issues" you've already screwed up! Dogs aren't wine! Problems don't get better with age...they get worst!

Pretty much...everything you should be doing is here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/6643625-post6.html

Think about what's best for your dog! Or do it your way, and see how it works out??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

dmom said:


> I have been working with my boy since he was a pup hoping to use him as a service dog. I have used place by my chair/side and leave it when he focuses in on something there be it person or critter. On leash or working he is dog/people neutral pays no attention to them at all. I will let you know that a working dog don't pet me vest seems to invite people to do just the opposite. It actually works better if you give off don't touch my dog vibe and I actually use that Ahhhh-Ahhhhh noise on people to stop them. It works.


Thank you - I'm not opposed to doing that at all. (fear the owner, not the dog lol!) There is another vest/harness that I was looking at that is RED w/black border, this may be more effective psychologically??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> BARBIElovesSAILORIf 's advice among others, is sound advise! I'm basically going to say the same thing but I'm not so good at the gentle approach thing so....
> 
> If I were to write an essay on "how to wreck your dog" it would include "exactly what you are planning on doing!"
> Your plan is to put this dog into situation for which she is both untrained and uncomfortable!
> ...


Chip - I knew that any post I did here would meet with "It's all my fault my dog barks at other dogs" and "your headed for disaster" I took her here when she was 14 weeks old, there was a mini Harley Rally there (vtg coopers), she met 15 people and she loved every one of them. She LOVES people, as I've explained, the only dog reaction she has is when she wants to get past the dog to get to their person and love them.

This is a difference, this is why I think it can be neutralized, I have no question of her absolutely loving the environment or the people - she's been there, done that and loves it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Chip - I knew that any post I did here would meet with "It's all my fault my dog barks at other dogs" and "your headed for disaster" I took her here when she was 14 weeks old, there was a mini Harley Rally there (vtg coopers), she met 15 people and she loved every one of them. She LOVES people, as I've explained, the only dog reaction she has is when she wants to get past the dog to get to their person and love them.
> 
> This is a difference, this is why I think it can be neutralized, I have no question of her absolutely loving the environment or the people - she's been there, done that and loves it.












You go girl! 

Clearly you're going against the collective wisdom of the "Forum." But I also advocate "know your dog" and you appear to! So sincerely...Best of Lucky!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Kind of flew past...but David gave some valuable insight. 

Hint provided - For the sake of the dog, not the OP.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I had my 10 week old golden at a music festival that was all day long within two weeks of owning him. -shrugs- His issues with people didn't arise until he was about 9 months of age, and it has been a long road to get him to where he is comfortable with new people who aren't in one of the clinics I work in. If you are there and in scrubs, he's much more likely to be relaxed with you than anywhere else. They never believe me til they come across us out in the world.

I agree with David about confusing her with the reactivity. Guarding the house lets her bark at people and be told its okay. But she can't bark at other dogs? She is still too young to really put that all together. My young shepherd was much the same. He was reacting at dogs, not at people. But I didn't care. It was no getting to react. I would walk him past situations that caused for him to get reactive with a sharp, leave it. We worked on acceptable, quick greetings with the hiking club and if he was going to be a punk, he was punished (removal from situation/restraint from freedoms, corrections if he tried to make contact with another dog). 

Now? I can call him back from dogs he sees up the trail. He will pause near them and come to me. He will also calmly greet new dogs/ignore them when we're out and about. Which is EXACTLY what I want him to do. He is wary/cautious with new people, but warms up quickly to those he gets to know. But he doesn't react at them. 

If he does alert bark about a person? I don't say anything or I simply call him over to me. No real reward or punishment for that. Plus my older girl is the one who is trained to respond to threats. So it's not a big deal for him to alert me lol. Even the golden will alert if he thinks he has backup.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Oh do I love that picture! LOL! Thanks Chip! I will tell honest and true after next week how it went. One thing, she will not be there if there's over 3 people outside max. But, this will be her second home. She will be more familiar with this street corner and these owners/employees than anyone else, and they will have our backs.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Kind of flew past...but David gave some valuable insight.
> 
> Hint provided - For the sake of the dog, not the OP.


"For the sake of the dog, not the OP" 

Yes, my last dog ended up staying in the yard and I stayed in the house, pretty much for 10 years. I am determined not to let this happen again, not because of the pit bulls that have just moved into the neighborhood, not because of the crazy old guy that can't keep his hands to himself, not because my dog may bark at other dogs. 

It may be different from my point of view to yours. I'm told that I'm different. The only thing I want is to be able to have my dog enjoy her yard and I can take her one place at the end of the block once a week to visit with my friends.That is the scope of what our lives will be. If that is to much to ask in this world, then something different will happen, but I will try my best.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Kind of flew past...but David gave some valuable insight.
> 
> Hint provided - For the sake of the dog, not the OP.


Oh I saw it and yes, like you my first thought was...hmm well if you're going against David's advice...

Still you never know, I did the "Who Pet's my Puppy or Dog" to rehab my human aggressive GSD. It made sense to me?? Don't know what the consensus
opinion on thatwould have been here had I asked for advice first?? 

As I say"know your dog" and she seems to.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Oh I saw it and yes, like you my first thought was...hmm well if you're going against David's advice...
> 
> Still you never know, I did the "Who Pet's my Puppy or Dog" to rehab my human aggressive GSD. It made sense to me?? Don't know what the consensus
> opinion on thatwould have been here had I asked for advice first??
> ...


Me one last time, I was referred to "Who Pet's my Puppy or Dog" also when Summer was 4 mos old. It made sense to me and that is what I plan to follow also. Thanks again for your help!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Oh no problem, but the advice on a an inner privacy fence is a good idea! Out west 6 foot redwood or Cedar fences is pretty much the norm. 

If you have a dog behind a chain link fence everybody can see them!Fools and cruel people are everywhere..just something to consider.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

My point was that if you are going to work with this dog on being social, work on that first. Don't encourage conflicting behaviors this early in training. Get social down and then work on alert barking. You can always teach the alert bark under controlled conditions with specific triggers later, when the dog understands the difference in venue.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Chip, I see nothing major wrong with the "Who Pets My Puppy" article. It doesn't address the situation of the dog being reactive very well IMO. 

Control Unleashed, or the Michael Ellis videos do a better job of dealing with reactivity. My point wasn't contrary to your advice, but rather that one thing at a time is more effective.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

I was thinkin, maybe your PTSD has something to do with your dog's behavior. She might be getting the vibe that you need protection.
Also, another thought...Could it be that during walks you feel a tad unsettled anticipating a negative encounter with another dog? I'd feel nervous if my dog was reactive.
By no means am I suggesting that any of the behavior is your fault.
You're trying your best to find a solution.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

For the most part, especially when dealing with aggression issues it's better to get a trainer to work with you and your dog in person.

Secondly, there are people here who have more hands on knowledge, who have trained many dogs that can and do cue in on the core problem. Knowing who and when is the art of getting hints on a forum that will guide the owner in the right direction.

I rarely get involved in these threads and if I do I suggest seeking a trainer with experience with aggression issues and GSDs.

As you correctly stated earlier, problems like these are not like wine, they get worse with age especially when the owner is trying to teach some guarding behavior. Seek a professional trainer to work with.

People sometimes think they know their dog and they don't. They really don't understand what the root cause of the agression is. They must learn, as in this case the OP didn't know she may well be creating conflict (per David). 

The more I learn the more I realized I did not know. 




Chip18 said:


> Oh I saw it and yes, like you my first thought was...hmm well if you're going against David's advice...
> 
> Still you never know, I did the "Who Pet's my Puppy or Dog" to rehab my human aggressive GSD. It made sense to me?? Don't know what the consensus
> opinion on thatwould have been here had I asked for advice first??
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I was chatting with another person on this forum who is a trainer, professionally with a good deal of experience, Bailiff.

We were discussing timing and consistency. 

I told him I thought my problem was lousy timing. He told me where most people screw up is lack of consistency. Being inconsistent, he wrote, is abusive.

That is the truth, I realized and I have been guilty of it.

If you train thinking in the context of what it _really_ is like for your dog then you will be a better trainer. 

What David is saying is about removing a potential source of conflict, where you are unknowingly being inconsistent.

I strongly recommend you seek a good trainer, experienced in IPO if possible, this will allow you to better know your dog, her drives and help you work her through bumps in the road more quickly efficiently and with less stress for her too. 

Also, one quick note about your breed standard thread. I think your girl is pretty, she looks very healthy too. She does not have a straight back however, my WGSL dog has a straighter back and Max was giving you a sound and truthful observation.




Stonevintage said:


> "For the sake of the dog, not the OP"
> 
> Yes, my last dog ended up staying in the yard and I stayed in the house, pretty much for 10 years. I am determined not to let this happen again, not because of the pit bulls that have just moved into the neighborhood, not because of the crazy old guy that can't keep his hands to himself, not because my dog may bark at other dogs.
> 
> It may be different from my point of view to yours. I'm told that I'm different. The only thing I want is to be able to have my dog enjoy her yard and I can take her one place at the end of the block once a week to visit with my friends.That is the scope of what our lives will be. If that is to much to ask in this world, then something different will happen, but I will try my best.


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## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

I know a really good K-9 protection trainer from Spokane. PM me if you are interested. He trains in CDA twice a week, and he would come to you.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Chip, I see nothing major wrong with the "Who Pets My Puppy" article. It doesn't address the situation of the dog being reactive very well IMO.
> 
> Control Unleashed, or the Michael Ellis videos do a better job of dealing with reactivity. My point wasn't contrary to your advice, but rather that one thing at a time is more effective.


 David yes you are correct, By way of explanation...

I've found that if you start with a dog with no problems and you do the loose leash training as shown and follow up with "Who Pets my Puppy or dog" then you won't see a dog reactivity problem! 


The link also includes a clip on dealing with a reactive dogs, I "assume" folks can look at the links and apply what they need! 

I use ME video for the Place Command and I'll have to purchase "Controlled Unleash" and read that in the future!

OP seems to have there stuff together, she is just going against "standard practices" as it were?

We're good!


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Findlay said:


> I was thinkin, maybe your PTSD has something to do with your dog's behavior. She might be getting the vibe that you need protection.
> Also, another thought...Could it be that during walks you feel a tad unsettled anticipating a negative encounter with another dog? I'd feel nervous if my dog was reactive.
> By no means am I suggesting that any of the behavior is your fault.
> You're trying your best to find a solution.


 The reason I brought up the PTSD issue is this:
In 2002 we rescued our GSD Jake, he was about 2 (he past away last May). 
Right off, he showed aggression toward other male dogs and some men. I did not want to keep him but our vet said he was “a keeper” and the trainer we consulted also said he was “a keeper.” 
I remember the trainer told me any feelings of anxiousness, fear or mistrust would go right down the leash and Jake would sense my unease, and that could put him in high alert. He said all dogs need a confident handler.
Jake's aggressive tendencies were never completely resolved. But I learned his triggers and did my best to avoid them. 
Dog/people socialization was out of the question. I wouldn't take the chance. 
Everyday I drove to an enclosed area at the harbor so he could be free to play. No risk to him or anyone else. Safety First!!
Aside from being in our yard, Jake was NEVER off leash. The trainer had taught me to use the long-line and Jake got plenty of exercise playing Frisbee etc. and he wore a floating long line when he swam, he loved to swim. He was a Great family dog. Loved children and was appropriately protective of our house/yard. He was not taught to be protective, he came by it naturally. He rarely barked.
Jake was well loved. He is missed.
My point is that an aggressive dog might always be aggressive and always have triggers. It falls to the owner to find suitable ways to engage the dog that doesn’t involve other dog/people. 
Yes. A private trainer is expensive but without that support, I don't think I would have been able to keep Jake. So, for me it was worth every penny.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I would work on engagement, and focus before putting her into an environment that may overwhelm her. LAT and other foundation from the control unleashed book may be of help too.
> CONTROL UNLEASHED - CREATING A FOCUSED AND CONFIDENT DOG - Dog Training and Behavior - Dogwise.com


I second this. 

She just needs to learn an appropriate way to deal with the dogs being present. 

She might be pretty overwhelmed and annoying at the cafe at first, and it would be beneficial to get her out prior to and much more afterward to work in those environments a little more when you have time to dedicate to training.

I would not be letting anyone greet her - human or dog if she is in an excited state of mind whatsoever. Even when my dogs are relaxed in public they don't get to do greetings. No need to get them worked up for that.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

David Winners said:


> My point was that if you are going to work with this dog on being social, work on that first. Don't encourage conflicting behaviors this early in training. Get social down and then work on alert barking. You can always teach the alert bark under controlled conditions with specific triggers later, when the dog understands the difference in venue.



I understand what you are saying David. Unfortunately her alert barking training is over for the most part. She picked it up in a couple of days because it comes so natural to them. My training in the future will be to quiet her if the barking is not warranted (she's cried wolf a couple of times as she likes me coming to her to see what's up).

Are you saying that now because she has that training that I cannot socialize her to be calm in the vicinity of other leashed dogs? It would seem that it is possible to train a dog that it's ok only to bark on our property and nowhere else. 

The first few days training scenario I envision for her at that location is this. My friend and his dog Bear are sitting outside. This will be mid day/week day when most folks are at work and the place is unoccupied outside at the tables. :shocked: I walk to within about 20 feet and stop. We will remain until she settles down if she has reacted. She will remain in the sit or lay position while I chat with my friend. We will gradually close the distance as the days go by to desensitize her. This will be the same with people she doesn't know sitting outdoors. She will be at a separate table between myself and the building wall well away from others until she has enough time to become familiar with everything and shows she is comfortable with the surroundings.

No unfamiliar dog will be allowed to approach her and no unfamiliar person will be allowed to intrude in her space without my permission. I'm not afraid to use the marine air horn on rude people either


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

It sounds like you have a really good plan laid in place. Good luck.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> No unfamiliar dog will be allowed to approach her and no unfamiliar person will be allowed to intrude in her space without my permission. I'm not afraid to use the marine air horn on rude people either


And I thought Leerburgh was harsh! 

But remember...it only takes a split second of inattention for bad things to happen!

We tend to dwell on the negative.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> And I thought Leerburgh was harsh!
> 
> But remember...it only takes a split second of inattention for bad things to happen!
> 
> We tend to dwell on the negative.


I know, the biggest fear I have is that the two pit bulls come around the corner and there we are. I do have a plan "C" for that though if needed. There is a side door right there that the employees use for smoke breaks, it's always unlocked during business hours (fire exit) - just inside is a hallway away from the the main part of the business. If needed, I can duck in there with her until the danger has passed (until I get caught - yelled at - and thrown out that is). They've given me the ok to have her in there as a service dog WHEN and IF she's trained as such. That's down the road but they know it's a possibility.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I took Summer to the cafe I was talking about last week. She did great. There was only myself and a friend sitting outside so I took advantage of the opportunity.

5 or 6 friends approached to say hi to Summer on their way in to the cafe. I said "no petting please", that she was in training. Summer did great and so did my friends! They understood. She remained calm for the most part, tail wagging at everyone that passed by, sat beside me or lay under my chair. She "talked" to me a lot during the 1/2 hour we we were there cracking my friend up but no nervous yawning or whining. I think this is gonna work Yippie!


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