# Another day another problem; Vicious barking at other dogs.



## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

A little back story. When I got her at 8 weeks old she was very submissive to other dogs. Would lay down before they approached, would play with other dogs. There were a few times where other dogs would viciously bark at her. ONE time an old jolly idiot comes over to my side of the street with his big dumb intact lab. The lab starts humping my dog. She didnt like it and snapped at the lab. 
Well I dont know if it was that incident, or that she is friends with a 3-pack of dogs around my block who ALWAYS bark at any dog passing by. Maybe she picked up the habit from them. Fast forward, the past month or so my 6 month old viciously barks at 95% of the dogs she sees. Mostly its at dogs smaller than her. Now, when the owner has the courage to let them meet even after all the barking my dog never snaps at them and never barks anymore, she plays with the dogs. But if she sees them coming like 50 feet away, or across the street its a very loud growling, and persistent bark.
Need some advice here please. I will not hire a trainer I'm sorry, I do pretty well training her myself. The lunging and jumping on people is getting better and better I just need some advice here.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Have a well proofed leave it command. She pays attention to the other dog. You say leave it. She obeys the command. Problem solved. 

That is how I lived life with an incredibly dog aggressive game bred pit bull.

And rethink your stance on that trainer. You have been having a LOT of issues with this pup. They are only going to get worse during adolescence. There is only so much help you can get with online forums.


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## Themusicmanswife (Jul 16, 2015)

You have to engage her before the barking begins. Before anything. You need to stop it before it starts. I read here at some point that if you feel the leash pull, you've lost the dog. Do whatever you're going to do before that happens. I use high value food rewards, a ball, small tug. Whatever is the "hot" item for her. Also, praise the crap out of your dog when they do it right. I forget this sometimes and I wish I didn't. My girl at 1 isn't perfect at this but when she's not I know that it is usually on me. I wasn't focused. I missed something. Her overall engagement and obedience need to be worked more. When I take care of my end of the leash, she's looking at me and could care less about that other dog because hey, let's catch the ball.
I don't let my dog meet other dogs on leash. Period. She is fine off leash. If your dog is going bonkers and you let her meet the dog, you are rewarding that behavior. Since we don't meet and greet, my pup is more relaxed. She's not anticipating anything. Sure, the flexi lead crowd might think I'm crazy but so what. Many a trainer will tell you not to let dogs meet while on leashes. 
And, get a prong. Your dog is only going to get bigger and stronger and more wild. It's a useful tool. You are trying. This will help you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Can you explain why you think that you do not need a trainer/dog classes. The dog may or may not need them. But I think you do. Most good trainers take their own dogs to classes, because it provides the dog the experience of working with her owner in the presence of other dogs working with their owners. 

But, a lot of people are there learning the basics that make up the building blocks of the dog's behavior: learning how to provide clear communication, learning when to praise, when to treat, when to correct, how to correct. We are given feedback about our body language and our dog's body language, and how that is working for or against us. 

We need to change our mindset. We will run to the vet and get antibiotics and ointment for the ears. We do not say, we are going to will the ear infection away. But we buck and fight paying a nickel for dog-training. 

What is the single largest cause of death of adolescent dogs? Yep, lack of training -- owner didn't need a trainer, wouldn't pay for training. Dog's behavior becomes unmanageable. Dog lands in shelter. Shelter euthanizes dog, probably before the owner drives away. 

Training is every bit as important as vaccinating and proper vet care. It can only get so far in a vacuum.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

First, it sounds like fear. and reactivity not viciousness and aggression.

Is this barking from behind a fence or on a leash? Both?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Themusicmanswife said:


> If your dog is going bonkers and you let her meet the dog, you are rewarding that behavior..


Agreed......


SuperG


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

DutchKarin said:


> First, it sounds like fear. and reactivity not viciousness and aggression.
> 
> Is this barking from behind a fence or on a leash? Both?


leash. on walks.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

NYCgsd said:


> A little back story. When I got her at 8 weeks old she was very submissive to other dogs. Would lay down before they approached, would play with other dogs. There were a few times where other dogs would viciously bark at her. ONE time an old jolly idiot comes over to my side of the street with his big dumb intact lab. The lab starts humping my dog. She didnt like it and snapped at the lab.
> Well I dont know if it was that incident, or that she is friends with a 3-pack of dogs around my block who ALWAYS bark at any dog passing by. Maybe she picked up the habit from them. Fast forward, the past month or so my 6 month old viciously barks at 95% of the dogs she sees. Mostly its at dogs smaller than her. Now, when the owner has the courage to let them meet even after all the barking my dog never snaps at them and never barks anymore, she plays with the dogs. But if she sees them coming like 50 feet away, or across the street its a very loud growling, and persistent bark.
> Need some advice here please. I will not hire a trainer I'm sorry, I do pretty well training her myself. The lunging and jumping on people is getting better and better I just need some advice here.


You posted this the other day:



> I stopped watching this guys youtube videos. I feel that his answer to everything is a prong collar. Maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. If my dog continues having problems I will use a prong collar, many great and obedient dogs need it. I was just trying to figure out a way without the use of one just yet.


What your seeing is the natural progression of things that she's been doing. It might get worse. You're focused too much on the equipment and your feelings about how they will effect her, and not on what matters. The behavior that's being trained. Don't waste your time worrying about incidents and causes. All that matters is now.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Solution....
Dog goes nuts.
Handler corrects dog.
Handler gives command for action opposite of being a bone head such as sit.
Dog Sits
Handler rewards dog for sitting.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> A little back story. When I got her at 8 weeks old she was very submissive to other dogs. Would lay down before they approached,


Right there told you all you needed to know. 

It sounds like you chose the "she'll get over it approach" and it's not worked out so well?? I can't even conceive of a dog "humping my girl??" Only way an unknown dog could get to my girl (well any of my dogs) would be to go through me! 

The only dogs your dog should have associated with are "Known Safe Stable Dogs." And those would have been dogs like mine ... expect by and large owners like "me" don't do "I thought my dog was friendly people." So yeah there is that.

If your goals are more modest and simple ie "Ignore other dogs" then yes you can do that. But if you "actually" intend to keep doing what you have been doing with the wrong dog ... most likely you will indeed "Need a Trainer???"

And ... my dogs have zero issues being around other dogs?? They have never had any negative experiences with unknown dog's so why would they??

At any rate to better understand what you've done ... have a look at the second and third article here. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

People need to understand where they are at in order to understand how to get where they want go! Not saying it can't be done but you might want to consider some changes .. if your a "No Trainer" person, I'm a KISS kinda and not messing around with unknow dogs ... fits perfectly with that "Philosophy."


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

This is what I know (FWIW):

A reactive dog never needs to meet up-close another dog the rest of its life.

Dog reactivity is a management and training problem.

Good leadership lessens and/or eliminates dog reactivity.

A dog does not get over reactivity by himself. He does not grow out of it w/o intentional intervention.

If a person is having an on-going reactivity problem, that person needs a good trainer for obedience. That person is in over his/her head because, if s/he knew what they were doing, the reactivity would have been taken care of the minute it started.

I speak from personal experience. My dog's reactivity forced me to go out into the world of trainers and experiment with all sorts of remedies the trainers promoted (or didn't know how to handle). I learned from everyone. My GSD is 2.5 years old. I finally have the reactivity under control. Two years of trial and error with various trainers, getting to know my particular dog and have a relationship with him,and a broken shoulder. 

I suggest you go to a Schutzhund or IPO club where they will teach you about focus and properly correcting your dog and I would find a good trainer that really knows GSDs, doberman, rottweilers, etc., to help you with obedience.

Good luck to you however you decide to proceed.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Moriah said:


> This is what I know (FWIW):
> 
> A reactive dog never needs to meet up-close another dog the rest of its life.
> 
> ...


Sigh....
She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs. I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Sigh....
> She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs. I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.


Leerburg was right. The bigger problem is your dog is making decisions, not you. You do not have control of your dog all the time.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Moriah said:


> This is what I know (FWIW):
> 
> A reactive dog never needs to meet up-close another dog the rest of its life.
> 
> ...


 I agree with 98 percent of what you say here.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Sigh....
> She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. *Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs.* I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.


The part in bold! Some trainers do say that, and following my personal/practice and philosophy the ones I tend to promote ..."Do Not!" 

Of course if your JQP average "Pet Owner" all trainers look pretty much the same??? You flip a coin and take a chance and of course "Gentle (Anything) and Positive Only .... sound just about right???  

And "leerburgh" ... a lot of "Pro's" have some issues with some of his stuff and some of it sounds kinda "extreme" but ... as it happens, that is also where I went first long before I came here!

For me it was 5 pack fights and then when that was over ... the freaking people thing??? I'd just gotten the first stitches in my life ever from breaking up a Dogfight which once again Rocky started!! 
And now the "people thing!!???"

I found "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog" which is not "exactly a H/A dog rehab but I put a spin on it ... "well if I kept people out of his freaking face ... he can't bite the crap out of anyone!" 

So that became my "job" and I am very good at my "job!" And the structure that was "apparently missing, he now got! I will feed you I will take care of you, you go in Place with company and you will not move! If you don't like people fine ... you do your job (Place) and I'll do my mine (keep company out of his face.) 

He was muzzled for a while and I did not do a muzzle conditioning protocol myself because I was ticked off! Here's the muzzle deal with it! And per Leerburgh ... "don't start a fight your not prepared to finish!" Rocky had no objections to my "muzzle conditioning" protocol ... I'm good thanks was the response. And for the record ... that is not a recommended approach!!

Then it was  pretty much no touch, no talk, no eye contact! I don't care, you will behave or I will drop a hammer on you!! Never had to drop that hammer by the way ... "Apparently "Keeping it Real " was what I had now begun do?? And then we "walked" many miles together in "Silence" and Darkness (literally we walked a lot at night. ) 

I had "zero" issues" with him and people and I soon dropped the muzzle on walks and did the "NO he's in training" thing as required. And he was in training ... he was being trained* "not to bite the crap out of people!!" 
*
As I say I am not a "Pro" so I had no idea how long I did this or where it was going?? And mostly I did not care as much about someone actually getting bit as I did making a point to (Rocky!) "That will not happen!!" 

But as it turned out ... I had stumbled unto a whole bunch of dog behaviour "stuff!"Rocky had indeed changed I just had not taken notice of it?? It takes a lot to impress me and then this happened.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/399905-what-would-my-dog-do.html

My point is ... I am not a "Pro" and I did that with a dog that in other hands may very well have been PTS??? And Rocky who had never "Played" with other dogs ... "stood" behind me calmly, while being charged by two strays, until "Daddy" went down. So yeah so much for the need other, dogs to learn to get along thing

Back on pointe ... yes some "Trainers" say your dogs should or need to associate with random "I thought my dog was friendly people" (Who usually have no idea??) and some say don't! So "you" have to decide which course of action is best for you?? That answer will dictate in my opinion if you need a "Trainer" or not. 

And for the record, the "yes sure ... your dog should get out there and make lot's of doggy friends, approach??" Yes indeed do that ... it's great for their business! And they would luv repeat business with dogs like yours, that approach with dogs like mine?? Yeah not so much, that kinda "crap" advice helps to create dogs like these :






Fortunately ... they dug a little deeper when looking for a trainer after the fact! 

And of course ... "out think your dog" and "work with the dog in front of you" are thinks I often say. And most importantly, right now ... you need to decide "which" approach is best for "your dog???" I'm sure it's pretty clear which way I lean.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> Sigh....
> She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs. I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.


 The thing is it's not her call to make it's yours! I expect the same response form my dogs regardless of big or small, barking or snarling and that response is "nothing." A lot fewer words this time.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Sigh....
> She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs. I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.




I have a reactive dog as well. He was bit on the face by a loose dog and that set it off. 

I think you need to find a trainer that is flexible, willing to adapt, and will work with you as a team. There was no "have to" or "can't." We started in my dog's comfort zone and went from there. At first there were no dogs, then one we worked on distance for awhile, and then small group walks with other clients. I think the group sessions were great because they were structured and guided. We all knew each other's issues and worked together.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

NYCgsd said:


> Sigh....
> She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs. I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.


Your shopping for the right answer and not focusing on your own dog. I honestly doubt one time getting humped has caused her to be fearful of anything. You'd see her fearful of things in general, not just some strange dog across the street.

The odds are way higher that you've just built in frustration and confusion in her by being inconsistent in how you've handled her. Never mind leerburg or the youtube whoever's for right now and pay attention to your dog. German Shepherds are an attentive alert breed. Getting them to ignore things isn't always easy, you're fighting against genetics for the most part. Maybe some can be calm around everything, but your's needs to be taught how to behave in these different situations.

Concentrate on the basics. Heel, sit, down, come. Keep her at a distance, make that all solid, then lose some of the distance slowly. She's going to know there's a dog over there. She's going to look at him, but she's going to do what you've taught her. Get rid of the harness, put the collar on, and focus on teaching her.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

And also, find a trainer. A good one. I really cannot understand why you are so against hiring a trainer. You need to be taught how to handle your dog. There is no shame in that. In the end, you will save yourself a lot of headaches if you just get help now.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Do what Steve suggested two posts up. Find a way to pull the money together for a good trainer. Interview trainers until you find one with a lot of German Shepherd experience. Stop making excuses. I did that for years with a previous difficult dog. It was another dog's fault. It was another owner's fault. You chose to get a breed that has reactivity to dogs and people as a natural behavior when you live in a crowded city with a lot people and dogs. It's your responsibility to teach your dog not to react or to react positively. It will only escalate as your dog gets older while you are making excuses. Please make a decision on one method and follow it.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Your shopping for the right answer and not focusing on your own dog. I honestly doubt one time getting humped has caused her to be fearful of anything. You'd see her fearful of things in general, not just some strange dog across the street.
> 
> The odds are way higher that you've just built in frustration and confusion in her by being inconsistent in how you've handled her. Never mind leerburg or the youtube whoever's for right now and pay attention to your dog. German Shepherds are an attentive alert breed. Getting them to ignore things isn't always easy, you're fighting against genetics for the most part. Maybe some can be calm around everything, but your's needs to be taught how to behave in these different situations.
> 
> Concentrate on the basics. Heel, sit, down, come. Keep her at a distance, make that all solid, then lose some of the distance slowly. She's going to know there's a dog over there. She's going to look at him, but she's going to do what you've taught her. Get rid of the harness, put the collar on, and focus on teaching her.


Harness has been gone for over a month. Flat collar is what I'm using. Past couple days it has been getting better. When I see a dog I try to divert the attention on to me. It's weird because this behavior came out of nowhere and surprised me. She was all fine and dandy and the next day, boom. I think she saw how the neighbors dogs behave (when any dog walks by they go crazy and bark up a storm) and copied it.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

GypsyGhost said:


> And also, find a trainer. A good one. I really cannot understand why you are so against hiring a trainer. You need to be taught how to handle your dog. There is no shame in that. In the end, you will save yourself a lot of headaches if you just get help now.


I've had bad experience with 2 dog trainers. One was a scam artist that smacked my dog, one was an idiot who decided to go on vacation for 4 weeks the week after I signed up.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> Harness has been gone for over a month. Flat collar is what I'm using. Past couple days it has been getting better. When I see a dog I try to divert the attention on to me. It's weird because this behavior came out of nowhere and surprised me. She was all fine and dandy and the next day, boom. I think she saw how the neighbors dogs behave (when any dog walks by they go crazy and bark up a storm) and copied it.


She isn't "fine." That is just an illusion because she doesn't see something that sets her off one day. You need a trainer. You aren't getting it.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> I've had bad experience with 2 dog trainers. One was a scam artist that smacked my dog, one was an idiot who decided to go on vacation for 4 weeks the week after I signed up.


I have had bad experiences with trainers, too. You just have to do research and find the right one. Is there an IPO club you can get to? Go there. They will help you.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> She isn't "fine." That is just an illusion because she doesn't see something that sets her off one day. You need a trainer. You aren't getting it.


This.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Lol. I'm such a friggin moron.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol. I'm such a friggin moron.


Why? did you go on vacation for 4 weeks?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Why? did you go on vacation for 4 weeks?


Yeah, out in my own private Idaho.


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## Ripley2016 (Mar 6, 2016)

NYCgsd said:


> A little back story. When I got her at 8 weeks old she was very submissive to other dogs. Would lay down before they approached, would play with other dogs. There were a few times where other dogs would viciously bark at her. ONE time an old jolly idiot comes over to my side of the street with his big dumb intact lab. The lab starts humping my dog. She didnt like it and snapped at the lab.
> Well I dont know if it was that incident, or that she is friends with a 3-pack of dogs around my block who ALWAYS bark at any dog passing by. Maybe she picked up the habit from them. Fast forward, the past month or so my 6 month old viciously barks at 95% of the dogs she sees. Mostly its at dogs smaller than her. Now, when the owner has the courage to let them meet even after all the barking my dog never snaps at them and never barks anymore, she plays with the dogs. But if she sees them coming like 50 feet away, or across the street its a very loud growling, and persistent bark.
> Need some advice here please. I will not hire a trainer I'm sorry, I do pretty well training her myself. The lunging and jumping on people is getting better and better I just need some advice here.



My pup has a similar problem and barks at other dogs. We are actively working to correct this. She's almost 5 months.

When she is barking at another dog and doesn't respond to a leash pop or NO BARK command, I have literally grabbed her by the scruff and pinned her down, saying NO BARK sternly. After I do that, when I say NO BARK, she responds. I also remind her of "no bark" as we approach another dog. Not sure if its the recommended way to go but I am having some success with it. The hard part for me is that if I'm walking my dog I almost always have my toddler in a stroller and it can be hard to correct and re-direct effectively and quickly. I'm trying to get her out for some one on one work but my husband is a fireman and we live in CA so basically he lives at work right now, so getting out without my littles is tough. We have a small lake near our home where there's almost always other dogs, so I planned to take her out there soon and do some clicker training where she is paying attention to me, and if she ignores other dogs or obeys the no bark command, I'll treat her. I also have scheduled a few puppy playdates, and got some good advice on here to not let her interact with the pup unless she is not barking. I did that about a week ago. Additionally, I'm meeting with the breeder I used for a puppy class, and she is going to observe this behavior and give me some further advice.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> She isn't "fine." That is just an illusion because she doesn't see something that sets her off one day. You need a trainer. You aren't getting it.


I will try to find a free trainer somewhere. Like the bootcamp I was looking into. No way am I paying for a trainer though. I can just watch youtube videos and get some ideas.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Free trainer?? Is that a real thing?


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> I will try to find a free trainer somewhere. Like the bootcamp I was looking into. No way am I paying for a trainer though. I can just watch youtube videos and get some ideas.


Click on Chip18 in "active topics," click on "statistics." and then click on his posts. Chip 18 is a DIY guy. Besides looking at the videos he references, closely read his posts. He has good ideas that worked in his situation that solved dog reactivity w/o paying a trainer. 

Good luck. For some of us, dog reactivity is a journey to making us better handlers--whether we want to or not.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> I will try to find a free trainer somewhere. Like the bootcamp I was looking into. No way am I paying for a trainer though. I can just watch youtube videos and get some ideas.


 @NYCgsd , consider for a moment what you are skilled at. Your career. Your talents. The things you can do better than other people you know.

Do you do those things for free? Would you expect free carpentry, free restaurant food, free newspaper delivery?

People who are skilled deserve to be compensated for their time and knowledge.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

@NYCgsd you have been given some very good advice on this thread, by some very experienced people. I sincerely hope you take it and reconsider finding a trainer. You cannot compare the help of a good trainer to a free video you find on YouTube.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

There is no magic bullet that will miraculously take all these issues away - they are common behavioural issues that many of us have worked through with our dogs. The answer has been given many times over in many different ways by many different people on this thread:

- don't make excuses for the dog. Expect and demand the same focus and obedience in any situation - you need to have control.

- achieving this won't happen overnight. It takes time, work and consisten effort. 

-the time, work and consistent effort = obedience training. Not six week puppy classes and you practice here and there once in a while. For dog-reactiveness, it is intense training, with corrections for breaking focus. I worked with my club two to three times a week, and practiced on all our walks with my dog-reactive, ZERO focus, "What the heck is self-control??" rescue. We got to the point where I could eye-contact heel her past loose barking, lunging dogs. I chose to focus on the end result I wanted, and not on her past (tied dog with zero training when I got her). 

My trainer said that except for one other dog he could remember, he had never in his 20 years of dog training seen a dog turn around and change as much as she had. She was never trustworthy around other dogs, but as long as I was around, I could voice control her, and she accepted that some things she was not to do. There was no magic to it, it was time-consuming, repetitive, consistent work from my part.

You get yourself some clear goals on what you want to achieve, and work towards it, baby-steps.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NYCgsd, you need a trainer. I am sorry that you are unwilling to do the work that you signed up for when you brought home a puppy. I am sorry you are unwilling to pay for what your dog needs and what you need. If you can sucker the people here into giving you their time and energy, I guess more power to you.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

@NYCgsd, I know how tough it can be raising a gsd in a big city where you meet so many people and dogs on each and every walk. You can try this.
Let your dog go and try to drag you by the leash, you stand firm, as soon as she turns back towards you, you click and treat. You can mix in some commands like sit or heel. As soon as she breaks focus off the dog or person in the street and puts her focus on you, click and treat. I used this method a LONG time ago.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Jax08 said:


> Free trainer?? Is that a real thing?


:grin2:
I have heard of this, it's usually trainers fresh out of school that want to hone their skills. Sort of like those places that give free haircuts to people from stylists who are still in school or just graduated.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Harness has been gone for over a month. Flat collar is what I'm using. Past couple days it has been getting better. When I see a dog I try to divert the attention on to me. It's weird because this behavior came out of nowhere and surprised me. She was all fine and dandy and the next day, boom. * I think she saw how the neighbors dogs behave (when any dog walks by they go crazy and bark up a storm) and copied it.*


Dogs can and do feed off and learn from each other.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> I will try to find a free trainer somewhere. Like the bootcamp I was looking into. No way am I paying for a trainer though. I can just watch youtube videos and get some ideas.


One dog bite can cost you $1,000 or more. A trainer would be less. A trainer would give you peace of mind. A trainer will eventually save your dog's life.

If you don't want to pay for a trainer, why do you want a German Shepherd? In the words of one of our trainers, People don't come to me when their dogs are young and easy to fix. They wait until Animal Control comes after them for a dog that is dangerous, or after a dog has bitten someone, or has terrorized their family or friends. Then it's harder and more expensive to fix. 

It's your choice, but it's obvious from your posts you aren't experienced yet with German Shepherd puppies or behaviors. Your posts show that you are not really listening to what people are telling you about your dog's behavior. A bunch of videos aren't going to fix the dog's behavior. 

We aren't trying to be mean or thoughtless. Your dog is showing behaviors that will continue to get worse unless you can replace them with good behaviors. Good luck. You are going to need it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Free trainer?? Is that a real thing?


Probably. A Good Free Trainer. Probably not.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

You gave up on trainers after just 2? I finally found a great trainer, my fifth. A good trainer will fast track you for the results you want, by giving you feedback on your handling skills. Ask here for trainer recommendations in your area. 

Until then, get someone to film you walking/handling your dog. You might pick up stuff on your handling you can improve on.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> I've had bad experience with 2 dog trainers. One was a scam artist that smacked my dog, one was an idiot who decided to go on vacation for 4 weeks the week after I signed up.


Those weren't good trainers. How did you find them and why did you sign up with bad trainers? I'm serious. I interviewed the private trainers I have used extensively. I talked to one for an hour and another for 90 minutes before I signed with either one. I also asked for recommendations, so I knew exactly what I was getting before we ever met with them and our dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dunkirk said:


> You gave up on trainers after just 2? I finally found a great trainer, my fifth. A good trainer will fast track you for the results you want, by giving you feedback on your handling skills. Ask here for trainer recommendations in your area.
> 
> Until then, get someone to film you walking/handling your dog. You might pick up stuff on your handling you can improve on.


Yes. Over a time period with four dogs, I went through 5 classes and 2 private trainers before I found the one I use now. Each of the classes has 3 trainers, so that was 15 different training experiences plus the 2 private, or 17 trainers. They were all OK, but most didn't have much German Shepherd experience or if they did, it wasn't working lines. Two had very mellow and calm American line dogs. I finally found someone who has worked with dozens of working lines dogs and the second he touched the leash, I saw my dog's full potential.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Those weren't good trainers. How did you find them and why did you sign up with bad trainers? I'm serious. I interviewed the private trainers I have used extensively. I talked to one for an hour and another for 90 minutes before I signed with either one. I also asked for recommendations, so I knew exactly what I was getting before we ever met with them and our dog.


Why do you say the trainer that went on vacation was a bad trainer? I don't get that. Are dog trainers not allowed to plan and go on vacation?


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> One dog bite can cost you $1,000 or more. A trainer would be less. A trainer would give you peace of mind. A trainer will eventually save your dog's life.
> 
> If you don't want to pay for a trainer, why do you want a German Shepherd? In the words of one of our trainers, People don't come to me when their dogs are young and easy to fix. They wait until Animal Control comes after them for a dog that is dangerous, or after a dog has bitten someone, or has terrorized their family or friends. Then it's harder and more expensive to fix.
> 
> ...


I think you are being overly dramatic. The GSD is 6 months old. She doesn't bite people or dogs, ever. She behaves perfectly after some exercise, just now I took her for a walk. She met a boxer that she is friends with, she came up to him and sniffed him and they rubbed necks. As soon as the boxer left, she gave a couple of loud barks. Sort of saying "HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING???"
She wants to play, she doesn't want to attack other dogs, like I said before, as soon as someone lets their dog approach even after all that barking they end up playing. I was looking for some procedural tips on getting her to pay more attention to me and not other dogs, and all you're giving me is "go hire a trainer" or criticizing how much I want to pay for one.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dogs can and do feed off and learn from each other.


Very true, I was watching how they teach young dogs to bite. One of the ways was they tie up pups and have them watch the older dogs do bite work.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Why do you say the trainer that went on vacation was a bad trainer? I don't get that. Are dog trainers not allowed to plan and go on vacation?


Maybe a good trainer but a poor business person. The trainer should not have taken money before telling the OP he was going on vacation. They should tell them their availability before making arrangements. If I had an emergency, which the OP does, I need a trainer NOW, not in a month.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> I think you are being overly dramatic. The GSD is 6 months old. She doesn't bite people or dogs, ever. She behaves perfectly after some exercise, just now I took her for a walk. She met a boxer that she is friends with, she came up to him and sniffed him and they rubbed necks. As soon as the boxer left, she gave a couple of loud barks. Sort of saying "HEY WHERE ARE YOU GOING???"
> She wants to play, she doesn't want to attack other dogs, like I said before, as soon as someone lets their dog approach even after all that barking they end up playing. I was looking for some procedural tips on getting her to pay more attention to me and not other dogs, and all you're giving me is "go hire a trainer" or criticizing how much I want to pay for one.


I'm done. *I got the drama from your posts*. Look at your title, that sounds serious. If it's not, then select a title that reflects that this is just a casual problem you are having. 

If you aren't having problems, then your posts should reflect that. It sounded earlier like your dog is reactive and getting worse. 

I have many other things to do with my time and places other than this forum to hang out, so I'll leave it to someone else to post to you further who doesn't mind talking in circles every time a new problem crops up that isn't a serious problem.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> Maybe a good trainer but a poor business person. The trainer should not have taken money before telling the OP he was going on vacation. They should tell them their availability before making arrangements. If I had an emergency, which the OP does, I need a trainer NOW, not in a month.



All we know is they went on vacation after he "signed" up for a class. The rest of what you are saying is all assumption.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

NYCgsd said:


> I will try to find a free trainer somewhere. Like the bootcamp I was looking into. No way am I paying for a trainer though.  I can just watch youtube videos and get some ideas.


Yup, that will fix it. Good luck!


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Well sounds like you got it all under control. YouTube some exercises on teaching your dog the focus command. It's pretty simple. you'll need a clicker and some treats.

But here's a tip: don't describe a dog's actions as vicious and then get annoyed when we take you seriously and try to help. It might seem like not a big deal but vicious puppies can turn into vicious 90lb adults and no one here wants that. Hence all the people trying to help you.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

What you're describing is only going to get worse, unless you figure out a way to completely stop it now. Good luck.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm done. *I got the drama from your posts*. Look at your title, that sounds serious. If it's not, then select a title that reflects that this is just a casual problem you are having.
> 
> If you aren't having problems, then your posts should reflect that. It sounded earlier like your dog is reactive and getting worse.
> 
> I have many other things to do with my time and places other than this forum to hang out, so I'll leave it to someone else to post to you further who doesn't mind talking in circles every time a new problem crops up that isn't a serious problem.


You weren't helpful at all, you were done at your first post. Which contributed nothing. Some people actually posted steps for what I can do. She was viciously barking, but I dont think she had vicious intentions. Thank you for your concern. Have a blessed night.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

"No way am I paying for a trainer though. I can just watch videos and get some ideas"

If you have a high drive pup, I really hope that you understand what a tight leash and pulling against a collar does to your pup and I'm not talking about possible damage. You may need to know that info if your timing is late in getting you pups attention.

This is the kind of information a trainer will know. There are also certain body postures that will illicit almost automatic behaviors in most dogs. A trainer knows them. This stuff is not easily found on YouTube. 

I am replying because what you said was really a slap in the face to the professionals and the very experienced.

You may also want to rethink the type of owner that you are meeting and greeting. anyone who would allow their dog to approach and meet a 6month old large breed pup who is barking viciously. What kind of owner makes that kind of choice?


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Do you know what to expect when your dog is in heat? At 6 months, it would be a good idea to be prepared for behaviours and changes you can expect.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Everything is on youtube, I'll give you that, except that you can't see yourself there. You can't see the subtitles of communication and timing, and reading the dog and seeing the dog for the individual that she is. There is a limit to video watching in all things.

I had very well trained aussies and I thought I knew quite a bit until I got Tygo. He is way lot more dog than my aussies were. He proved I was not very skilled. I went to 3 crappy trainers until I struck gold. A golden trainer is not a crap shoot. You do have to pay for it. You cannot learn the upper levels from a video. That is true in any arena. When you have a tough dog, and you drop the ego and do what is right by the dog and by you, it is amazing what you can learn.

It is up to you of course. But try to put yourself aside and really really look at the situation and do what is best for the dog and his/her long life with you.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> You weren't helpful at all, you were done at your first post. Which contributed nothing. Some people actually posted steps for what I can do. She was viciously barking, but I dont think she had vicious intentions. Thank you for your concern. Have a blessed night.


Lol, k.

Everyone was helpful. You just didn't get the echo chamber you wanted. 

If you just wanted "steps" and no drama  why post at all? Like you said, you've got YouTube.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Wow! I wonder what a newbie would think reading this thread? A little bit hostile in general, ya' think? At the very least, not very positive.

I know there is a time and place for trainers, and this might very well be one, but let's not let puppy and training threads deteriorate into one big sticky that says don't ask questions or look for help, get a trainer. Surely with all of the problem puppies / dogs posted on this forum, somebody must have had this problem with their dog. What did they do? Get a trainer? Okay, what did the trainer say? Is there a thread where it was discussed?


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Wow! I wonder what a newbie would think reading this thread? A little bit hostile in general, ya' think? At the very least, not very positive.
> 
> I know there is a time and place for trainers, and this might very well be one, but let's not let puppy and training threads deteriorate into one big sticky that says don't ask questions or look for help, get a trainer. Surely with all of the problem puppies / dogs posted on this forum, somebody must have had this problem with their dog. What did they do? Get a trainer? Okay, what did the trainer say? Is there a thread where it was discussed?


I don't disagree with "but let's not let puppy and training threads deteriorate into one big sticky that says don't ask questions"...but this isn't her first thread about the dog's behavior out in public. I am skimming the previous thread and I am seeing plenty of advice that she can implement on her own that could apply to this issue as well. BUT, there is only so much we can do from here. Part of getting better as a trainer is seeing your own faults and working on them. A trainer is great because they can watch and instruct in real time.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Wow! I wonder what a newbie would think reading this thread? A little bit hostile in general, ya' think? At the very least, not very positive.
> 
> I know there is a time and place for trainers, and this might very well be one, but let's not let puppy and training threads deteriorate into one big sticky that says don't ask questions or look for help, get a trainer. Surely with all of the problem puppies / dogs posted on this forum, somebody must have had this problem with their dog. What did they do? Get a trainer? Okay, what did the trainer say? Is there a thread where it was discussed?


Well I listed some steps for him to take. Let the pup drag you a bit, you stand still, once the pup turns back toward you, click and treat. I also remember when I had reactive dogs, I would always carry a toy with me, when another dog passed by I acted like a clown and tried to get the dogs attention towards me.
With all due respect to everyone here, I raised all my dogs and fosters without a trainer. But as some of you may know, I am waiting for my KNPV dutch/mal and know that I will most likely need a good trainer. I was contemplating just ordering some books and DVDs but this thread kind of talked me out of it.:smile2:
Then again, I have seen dogs who were just born behaved. Genetics plays a huge role.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dotbat215 said:


> I don't disagree with "but let's not let puppy and training threads deteriorate into one big sticky that says don't ask questions"...but this isn't her first thread about the dog's behavior out in public. I am skimming the previous thread and I am seeing plenty of advice that she can implement on her own that could apply to this issue as well. BUT, there is only so much we can do from here. Part of getting better as a trainer is seeing your own faults and working on them. A trainer is great because they can watch and instruct in real time.


Yes, this OP has posted numerous threads asking questions. This forum is a good place for questions, or at least it should be. I guess OP is just not finding advice that resonates with them. One size does not fit all applies to the owner(trainer) as well as the dog. 

I am not saying that getting a trainer is a bad idea, but this OP has had bad experiences with trainers and prefers to DIY. That should be okay too as long as this dog is not a threat to anybody.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> Well I listed some steps for him to take. Let the pup drag you a bit, you stand still, once the pup turns back toward you, click and treat. I also remember when I had reactive dogs, I would always carry a toy with me, when another dog passed by I acted like a clown and tried to get the dogs attention towards me.
> With all due respect to everyone here, I raised all my dogs and fosters without a trainer. But as some of you may know, I am waiting for my KNPV dutch/mal and know that I will most likely need a good trainer. I was contemplating just ordering some books and DVDs but this thread kind of talked me out of it.:smile2:
> Then again, I have seen dogs who were just born behaved. Genetics plays a huge role.


Exactly, preferring or choosing to DIY should not be treated as something evil. Not everybody can DIY and asking for help or input to do DIY is not a bad thing. If your method worked for you, great! Personally, I would be a tad reluctant to "act like a clown" when my dog was already doing so, especially on the streets of NY, but I guess one could rest assured that even the most desperate of thugs would leave you alone. :grin2:

And, Julian, glad to see you on the genetics o behavior bandwagon! :wink2:


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

I don't think anyone here is saying that DIY is evil. In fact, the beginning of the thread had a lot of advice that she didn't need a trainer for. I think people get irritated when someone starts a thread, other users give advice based on the information given, and then the OP starts correcting people's perception of the situation even though they're going on the info that the OP gave in the first place. When someone comes to you for help because they don't know what to do and then critiques your advice it gets frustrating. The advice may not resonate with her, but if nothing has worked so far then I don't see any reason (barring safety) to give it a shot.



And saying "no trainers!" because one was a jerk and the other took a long vacation right after you signed up (the trainer should have been more upfront but I don't think its the biggest sin) seems like throwing baby out with the bath water to me. 



Its like having a bad doctor experience and vowing to never go to any doctor ever. It's fine if you feel a cold coming on, but if you start having bigger issues you're going to be in trouble.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dotbat215 said:


> I don't think anyone here is saying that DIY is evil. In fact, the beginning of the thread had a lot of advice that she didn't need a trainer for. I think people get irritated when someone starts a thread, other users give advice based on the information given, and then the OP starts correcting people's perception of the situation even though they're going on the info that the OP gave in the first place. When someone comes to you for help because they don't know what to do and then critiques your advice it gets frustrating. The advice may not resonate with her, but if nothing has worked so far then I don't see any reason (barring safety) to give it a shot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm! I went back to read some comments, and from the first page was "I don't think the dog needs a trainer but you do," with plenty of likes. I am not saying the comment, or train of thought, is wrong, but the approach? Although I don't believe that the comment was made with any negative connotations, it easily can be misconstrued as such and may have set the tone.

No bad reflection on OP, but they are trying to raise a family in an unsavory part of town. That hints to me that money may be tight and maybe in OP's mind the money might be better spent budgeted to provide a better neighborhood for their children vs training an unruly dog? I have seen the prices some people have posted as to the cost of good dog trainers in their areas. It definitely puts a good trainer out of the price range of the average JQP.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Well, I'm not going to back peddle what I said but I will acknowledge that I jumped in here without offering helpful advise so I'll do it now.

Op, I do wish you success in working through this with you pup. At 6 months, a pup can and will get more amped up pulling on a tight collar which is the exact opposite of what you want. Maybe that was said in your other thread. With my boy, if he has zoomed in on a dog and stiffened his body, it is too late for me to give a collar correction, it just amps him but an extremely firm leave it followed by a "go sniff" (something that he loves to do) helps him make the right choice . when my timing is right, I do collar pop along with an obedience command. 

What got my hackles up was the off-handed remark that seemed void of respect for the profession of dog training. Maybe I took that comment the wrong way.

On a more personal experience view, I was the "I can do this myself" for 4 long years. And if you think about it, that is 3.5 years too many to struggle with an issue. Gsds often have such a short time on this Earth. Why waste the time you have struggling if a professional can help get through it quickly.so that you can make the best with the time you have with each other.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DutchKarin said:


> I had very well trained aussies and I thought I knew quite a bit until I got Tygo. He is way lot more dog than my aussies were. He proved I was not very skilled. I went to 3 crappy trainers until I struck gold. A golden trainer is not a crap shoot. You do have to pay for it. You cannot learn the upper levels from a video. That is true in any arena. When you have a tough dog, and you drop the ego and do what is right by the dog and by you, it is amazing what you can learn.


 (Well for now) there is always "that guy." That said a "Pack" huh?? Been there done that ... got the stitches! 

A "trainer" would not "necessarily have prevented issues among an owner's "Dog Pack??" A "Balanced Trainer" would be "JQP's" best shot. Because I'm pure they "also" do the* "Rules ,Structure and Limitations"* thing as a matter of course??" 

By and large JQP has no idea what any of that means??? So they fire up the old internet and do a search for a "good" PO trainer, and find ... "Gentle Paws" Dog Training, that looks good!" Yes, good luck with that, if that owner does not have "the right dog." :grin2:

Typically successful "Bully" owners are the ones in for the most "Beed Behaviour Shock" if you will, with "Dog Packs." Speaking for myself .... more than a decade of "Drama" free dog ownership. 

And then came "Rocky!" Seven month old big furry puppy (OS WL GSD) all I saw was lots of fur and a "pointy face." He "apparently" laid low for five issues free ( that I saw) months and then one day "out of the Blue???" It was "Hammer time" ... it was on big time! That was the first "Pack Fight!"

First lesson learned ... a cookies wasn't gonna cut it! Maybe if I'd have "hit him" with a 50 pound sack of them??? Pretty sure the part in bold (Rules Structure and Limitations) would have "prevented" that situation from ever developing??

I had "thought" I had always been doing that??? I guess I was but "apparently" I had "something off" in my particular interpretation of those things??

Oh well "lessons" learned ... it won't happen again. Just a note from the trenches.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I might have missed it, but curious when the last time this dog was taken out and allowed off leash, just being a dog time? I feel it'll make a huge difference. Just to run, play, explore. 
It builds confidence, releases tension, and builds the bond between owner and dog. Even tho you are in NYC, the Hudson Valley region isn't far, Catskills are close, ocean is close. 
Trainers aren't for dogs. Trainers are for dog owners. Your dog doesn't sound super driven. If you work hard you will both learn. Do not get frustrated, take your time. Be spot on with rewards and corrections. Try to catch the behavior the second before it starts. 
Remember to have fun. You did not get a dog to have a dog. You got the dog for the joy they give you. 

Just my opinion.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> I might have missed it, but curious when the last time this dog was taken out and allowed off leash, just being a dog time? I feel it'll make a huge difference. Just to run, play, explore.
> It builds confidence, releases tension, and builds the bond between owner and dog. Even tho you are in NYC, the Hudson Valley region isn't far, Catskills are close, ocean is close.
> Trainers aren't for dogs. Trainers are for dog owners. Your dog doesn't sound super driven. If you work hard you will both learn. Do not get frustrated, take your time. Be spot on with rewards and corrections. Try to catch the behavior the second before it starts.
> Remember to have fun. You did not get a dog to have a dog. You got the dog for the joy they give you.
> ...


I think all this confinement is the root of so many problems with these dogs that we see on here. They are either confined to a backyard or a leash. Even on a longline, there is no way a dog can get up to a full run and not hit the end of that leash hard enough to ensure that it doesn't try that again, meanwhile risking physical damage to itself and its owner. 

Also, if a dog has to gage its run preparing to make an abrupt stop or turn as is the case in so many small yards, it still is insufficient.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think all this confinement is the root of so many problems with these dogs that we see on here. They are either confined to a backyard or a leash. Even on a longline, there is no way a dog can get up to a full run and not hit the end of that leash hard enough to ensure that it doesn't try that again, meanwhile risking physical damage to itself and its owner.
> 
> Also, if a dog has to gage its run preparing to make an abrupt stop or turn as is the case in so many small yards, it still is insufficient.


Nothing better than seeing a dog completely untethered running free.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

"Trainers aren't for dogs. Trainers are for dog owners."

This?. Having someone work with me, watching me, correcting me has had an enormous positive impact on my life with my dog. It's made me a better owner. I learned better ways of communicating with my dog which leads to less frustration. My dog is a great student, it was the teacher who needed some guidance?

I think when you own a dog that can fight alongside our soldiers, take down criminals, and rescue people, its worth factoring in the cost of getting outside training help. I get that its expensive, I have the credit card statement to prove it but so is an ER visit, getting sued, etc. Not trying to be negative, it's something to think about.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> Nothing better than seeing a dog completely untethered running free.


It is a beautiful sight to behold, running free, jumping, moving their bodies as nature created them to do.

It is so important to a dog's health to be able to stretch out and move. Same can be said for people, but we can be taught stretching exercises to compensate, the same can't be done for a dog. They must get it naturally. You know the old saying, use it or lose it. So sad, it doesn't have to be like that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK ... well then I don't think "I poured more money down the "rat hole" of ineffective trainers then you did is to "convincing???" Kinda like well yeah that guy sucked but maybe the next one won't that sounds "expensive??" And not everyone is able to afford to do that?? Word of mouth works better and even then "location and cost" are in the "Real World" also factors.

But yeah anyway ... find a trainer. Still not my thing but ... you know ... as they say "the beat goes on!" Fine then I give some ground. But I cover "things," I would look for, if you look for something "similar" in a trainer you'll do fine, so "my version" of "Find a Trainer." :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7589889-post13.html

"NYCgsd" I thought I asked a very simple question?? Most likely too simple, or I thought I asked and did not?? Don't know ... as I tend to say a lot of "stuff." But I'll try again and say "why " I think "simple or not ... it's a big deal.

Do you still "plan" on continuing down the "I thought my dog was friendly path?? Random dog on the street, Dog Park dogs, with random dog behavioural issues to be encountered on any given day. More than likely if you don't plan on changing what you do with your dog. Anyone my guys would tend to recommend, would take you as a client in any case?? They would say, "if you must do the doggy thing ... known safe dogs only."

Cesar Millan notwithstanding ... I think spending time money and effort "rehabbing" a "dog" and then subjecting them to the "Random uncontrolled chaos of the local Dog Park" is insane. DIY or a Trainer if your going to do that?? Any efforts are just one random (dog on the street) meet up away from disaster.

So yeah I feel making "that" change is important (Just say no!) to other dog owners ... that's why I asked. 

But yeah no point in me being "pig headed." As they say it never hurts to look, so my "secret to success" is to teach my dogs to "ignore other dogs" and that would look like this:

Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Good luck going forward and as I am want to say to my doggies ... "Make Good Choices." 

Hmmm and I'll have to add this to that thread ... "Yes my dogs don't play with other dogs (rare exceptions) and yes I can take them around other dogs as required. They do just fine at the Vets or in lines with other dog owners. In as much as they have never had a "bad dog" encounter?? why would they care about other dogs one way or the other??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Dotbat215 said:


> "Trainers aren't for dogs. Trainers are for dog owners."
> 
> This?. Having someone work with me, watching me, correcting me has had an enormous positive impact on my life with my dog. It's made me a better owner. I learned better ways of communicating with my dog which leads to less frustration. My dog is a great student, it was the teacher who needed some guidance?
> 
> I think when you own a dog that can fight alongside our soldiers, take down criminals, and rescue people, its worth factoring in the cost of getting outside training help. I get that its expensive, I have the credit card statement to prove it but so is an ER visit, getting sued, etc. Not trying to be negative, it's something to think about.


Well I do my thing for those that can. But yeah ... good points.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> German Shepherds are an attentive alert breed. Getting them to ignore things isn't always easy, you're fighting against genetics for the most part. Maybe some can be calm around everything, but your's needs to be taught how to behave in these different situations.
> 
> Concentrate on the basics. Heel, sit, down, come. Keep her at a distance, make that all solid, then lose some of the distance slowly. She's going to know there's a dog over there. She's going to look at him, but she's going to do what you've taught her. Get rid of the harness, put the collar on, and focus on teaching her.


This. There is not going to be a quick fix, you have to put the time in and be patient. Work on basic obedience skills under a variety of situations, build the relationship, and engage her in play. Add movement, be animated, don't just stand there and tell her what to do. When you reward her with food or a toy, make her chase it, don't just hand it to her. I've said this before, but I'll say it again - if you're not having fun, she's not having fun. Make training, learning, and paying attention to you _fun_. I have a dog that a trainer once remarked about "he defaults to the environment". And she was right, although I'd never thought about it that way before. It's not really a problem and he's almost 11 now so it's not something I feel like I need to "fix". But if I'd known when he was young what I know now about dog training and behavior, I would have done many things differently. Why should she pay attention to you when whatever is going on in the environment around her is more interesting?



NYCgsd said:


> Sigh....
> She doesn't do it to every dog. I just had a walk with her. Across the street was a large golden retriever that she knows, no reaction at all. A block away I run into a husky (out of nowhere he turned the corner). She lunged and barked at him. I found a free doggy bootcamp class where many people bring their dogs and they all go for a walk at a park. Kind of confused honestly, some trainers say to not bring your pup around any dogs, some say to bring them around many dogs. I have to say, bringing her around other dogs seems to have instilled a fear reaction in her. Maybe leerburg was right all along.


A pack walk with other, well behaved dogs can be a good thing. When you bring her around the other dogs does she get to meet them? It's probably better if she doesn't. Exposure doesn't have to mean face to face meetings, which are often problematic. My dogs react to different dogs differently and she could have sensed something in the demeanor of the husky that you weren't aware of. Staring is a trigger for many dogs, and if the other dog is giving her a hard stare as you approach, or has stiff body language, or is lunging towards her vs just minding its own business and calmly walking by, that can cause her to react. Also, you said the husky came suddenly around the corner. That's another potential trigger. Many GSDs are sensitive to sudden environmental changes (SECs) - they can be perfectly fine in a large group of dogs but react to a single dog appearing suddenly, or fine walking down a busy street next to loud traffic, but startle in a quiet neighborhood when a car goes by. Think about it - any breed that tends to be a good guard dog or have protective instincts needs to be alert to sudden changes in the environment, so it's not surprising that GSDs can more sensitive than some other breeds. It's genetics, in an attentive, alert breed, as Steve mentioned above. 



NYCgsd said:


> Need some advice here please. I will not hire a trainer I'm sorry, I do pretty well training her myself. The lunging and jumping on people is getting better and better I just need some advice here.


Respectfully, your thread title: _Another day another problem_, implies that you're not doing that well by yourself. And that's not a slam on you at all, none of us were born knowing how to train a dog! Even if you do find a good trainer, and I would encourage you go try and find one, you're still going to do the vast majority of training yourself. What a trainer can do is observe you and your dog and make suggestions about how to deal with the issues you're having. There's really no substitute for an experienced eye. We got our first GSD 30 years ago and are on #4 & #5. Each of them has taught me a lot, each of them have been individuals that have challenged my skills (or lack thereof, lol) in new ways. With Halo, I took 5 basic obedience classes in addition to starting training her at home from when we got her at 10 weeks old. At 13 weeks we started Puppy 1, then went on to Puppy 2, a CGC prep class, Basic Manners, and Family Dog 2. Still, after all those classes and all the work I did with her at home during and between classes, we also worked with a great private trainer for several months. You'd think I wouldn't need all that training help after having so many prior GSDs, but even though I actually DO do pretty well training my dog myself after all these years, there is always more I can learn. 



Heartandsoul said:


> On a more personal experience view, I was the "I can do this myself" for 4 long years. And if you think about it, that is 3.5 years too many to struggle with an issue. Gsds often have such a short time on this Earth. Why waste the time you have struggling if a professional can help get through it quickly.so that you can make the best with the time you have with each other.


Absolutely. It's easy to dismiss working with a trainer if you don't understand exactly how much help they can be, but once you find a good one you won't make that mistake again. I've had several reactive dogs, and it does sound more like reactivity than actual aggression, and it can be a PITA to deal with. Reactivity can be based on weak nerves and fear (Cassidy), or over exuberance (Keefer, who is hyper social and gets frustrated when he doesn't get to meet every dog he wants to). The best approach may depend on the underlying cause of the behavior, and that's just one way that a trainer can help. With Keefer I can correct him for being a butthead because there is no fear there. He's resilient to corrections, he doesn't take it personally, there's no risk of fallout or redirection. I spent most of his early years training him what TO do, he just needs sometimes to be reminded what NOT to do. It took that private trainer to observe and evaluate him before I was comfortable telling him firmly to knock it off. 

With Cassidy, who was extremely reactive to other dogs on leash (she was fine around most dogs off leash), we took a different approach, a class for reactive dogs. That was the best move we could have ever done. Having "that dog" the barking, lunging monster in a class of nice family pets was incredibly stressful. I'm sure our stress didn't help her either. Her basic obedience skills were very good by then, she was incredibly smart and learned at lightning speed. This class was all reactive dogs, and she was in the middle of the pack. Some dogs were not as bad as her and some were much worse, so we didn't stand out. We worked on the reactivity under controlled circumstances, and each week you could see the progress as dogs became more comfortable in closer and closer proximity to each other. I think in NYC you should be able to find such a class, and it would be much less expensive than working with a private trainer.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Exactly, preferring or choosing to DIY should not be treated as something evil. Not everybody can DIY and asking for help or input to do DIY is not a bad thing. If your method worked for you, great! Personally, I would be a tad reluctant to "act like a clown" when my dog was already doing so, especially on the streets of NY, but I guess one could rest assured that even the most desperate of thugs would leave you alone. :grin2:
> 
> And, Julian, glad to see you on the genetics o behavior bandwagon! :wink2:


The "worst of owners can also screw up the "best" of dogs. That does happen also I will grant that a solid dog can snap back ... if they get a second chance ... just saying.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This. There is not going to be a quick fix, you have to put the time in and be patient. Work on basic obedience skills under a variety of situations, build the relationship, and engage her in play. Add movement, be animated, don't just stand there and tell her what to do. When you reward her with food or a toy, make her chase it, don't just hand it to her. I've said this before, but I'll say it again - if you're not having fun, she's not having fun. Make training, learning, and paying attention to you _fun_. I have a dog that a trainer once remarked about "he defaults to the environment". And she was right, although I'd never thought about it that way before. It's not really a problem and he's almost 11 now so it's not something I feel like I need to "fix". But if I'd known when he was young what I know now about dog training and behavior, I would have done many things differently. Why should she pay attention to you when whatever is going on in the environment around her is more interesting?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing to add just some notes in support of your post!

I did not see the "I use a Harness" thing??? Just as well, I'd have gone nuts on that one! Oh well if he contacts anyone thru my sources .. they will tell him to "lose that "crap."

The big pack walks?? You know I've seen them! But I tend to think that's a "regional" kinda thing?? "I" would certainly do fine with that, my dogs are fine .."it's" me that needs the work with that one. 

But I've never seen one local to me ... out West (don't know about) LA and such?? But where I tend to live, the prevailing thought is "High Fences Make Good Neighbors!" 

And in "NV" dog owners with well trained dogs seem to be rare?? Where I am and when I do "see" them they keep there distance also. No one here tends to be a "gap closer" as it were. I'm good "here" thanks, have a nice day. 

Lot's of neighborhoods with big lots and no sidewalks ... well not paved streets anyway. But once in a local "paveless" street, with big lots ... I did see a "Pack Walk" of sorts. 

Most likely neighbors??? And five random dogs, they all seemed to be random rescues and all were furry and smallish to medium dogs. And no leashes and the dogs would randomly wander across the street and back to there owners more or less.

I pulled well aside and stopped and let them go past my car. I never thought of it but I guess that was a "Dayton NV" type "Pack Walk."  

I quoted the whole post ... kinda tired. But I saw something I'd never considered (again actually) "Pack Walks" and this time I did give it a second thought ... and I like it.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

I have nothing against DIY dog training at all, but in this case, yeah - the OP needs to find a trainer and expand their dog handling skill. 

It's not just the many problems that they've been posting about like the barking at other dogs, the lunging at people, and the going crazy in the house puppy problems...

But handling errors are being made that can make this dog spooky, unsafe and mess up what could be a good dog. I'm sorry OP I'm not trying to pick on you, but stuff like this: 



> The other day a real A-hole neighbor who my family hates passed by and stopped to talk to me. He had a cane (he's not disabled he uses it to scheme the government...thats another story). Well she might have sensed that I don't like the guy and she started barking at him non-stop. Or it might have been the cane he was holding and she sensed a threat. But then again *at 15 weeks old* she might not know any better.
> Also I have been using a flirt pole recently, I think it helps build aggression. What you need to do is don't let her catch the prey, being the rag at the end of the pole. When she can't catch it, it adds to frustration and then turns into aggression. I don't know, *I did a short decoy drill with friend of mine and she was really amped up and aggressive.*


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/643433-social-butterfly-no-aggression.html

Plus that the OP has also admitted to smacking and hitting the dog out of anger and frustration in more then one thread. 

It'ss not going to lead to a safe, sane, well adjusted dog.  

The OP has expressed interest in having this dog protection trained numerous times as well

My opinion is that DIY training is not this pup's best interest. It's not a knock against the OP - i think they just need more experience with working breeds before they can successfully do a DIY raised pup AND get the results they want, as in a protection trained animal.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I have a similar problem with my dog. So, I'm going to try this, specifically for her fenceline aggression with dogs. I will be right there to discourage and reward. This should be interesting. It is the same size tiger as in the video. I've had it in the shop for a couple of years and she's never seen it. The 2nd link explains why I think a stuffed tiger might aid as a training tool. At least until she figures out it's not real. But, still it will allow me to get a couple of minutes of vital training in - I hope. The tiger will be outside the chain link fence on the sidewalk when I bring her out on her regular leash and prong to do walk by's with correction and reward. I hope the neighbors don't mind a minute of mindless barking.

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...ZnOAhUj6IMKHcBaArEQMwhpKEEwQQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

Can Fake Dogs Help Real Dogs?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> I have nothing against DIY dog training at all, but in this case, yeah - the OP needs to find a trainer and expand their dog handling skill.
> 
> It's not just the many problems that they've been posting about like the barking at other dogs, the lunging at people, and the going crazy in the house puppy problems...
> 
> ...


Very well said, voodoolamb.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

voodoolamb said:


> I have nothing against DIY dog training at all, but in this case, yeah - the OP needs to find a trainer and expand their dog handling skill.
> 
> It's not just the many problems that they've been posting about like the barking at other dogs, the lunging at people, and the going crazy in the house puppy problems...
> 
> ...


I smacked her one time when she was 3 months old. I felt terrible. I never did it again. It was a reaction to her landshark biting. By the way, she is a lot better the past couple of days. Youtube videos helped. A couple of members helped. Most of you judgemental members did not help. Carry on with your conversations among each other. I will refrain from asking any more questions on here.
Have a nice day.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I have a similar problem with my dog. So, I'm going to try this, specifically for her fenceline aggression with dogs. I will be right there to discourage and reward. This should be interesting. It is the same size tiger as in the video. I've had it in the shop for a couple of years and she's never seen it. The 2nd link explains why I think a stuffed tiger might aid as a training tool. At least until she figures out it's not real. But, still it will allow me to get a couple of minutes of vital training in - I hope. The tiger will be outside the chain link fence on the sidewalk when I bring her out on her regular leash and prong to do walk by's with correction and reward. I hope the neighbors don't mind a minute of mindless barking.
> 
> https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...ZnOAhUj6IMKHcBaArEQMwhpKEEwQQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
> 
> Can Fake Dogs Help Real Dogs?


Does this really work?


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Well, when my trainers first started working with us, they wanted to gauge how my dog felt about other dogs but wanted to do so safely. They brought a stuffed dog on a leash and used our couch to kind of obscure it enough to trick him and he definitely thought they had a real dog. Youtube is helpful in that you can also play dog sounds to make it extra convincing.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I'm afraid I have to say, I seriously doubt the stuffed tiger protocol would yield results. Assuming the dog in question is stable.

I just won a large stuffed tiger in a random game of chance. I took it out to the parking lot and let both of dogs out of the car. Having never seen a large angry stuffed tiger before, they were quite happy to plop down next to it and enjoy a photo op. Not a hackle was raised, nor a peep from either.

Just some first hand experience....


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

WIBackpacker said:


> I'm afraid I have to say, I seriously doubt the stuffed tiger protocol would yield results. Assuming the dog in question is stable.
> 
> I just won a large stuffed tiger in a random game of chance. I took it out to the parking lot and let both of dogs out of the car. Having never seen a large angry stuffed tiger before, they were quite happy to plop down next to it and enjoy a photo op. Not a hackle was raised, nor a peep from either.
> 
> Just some first hand experience....


This is amazing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WIBackpacker said:


> I'm afraid I have to say, I seriously doubt the stuffed tiger protocol would yield results. Assuming the dog in question is stable.


I would be surprised if it did more than give her pause the first time she saw it. Dogs use their other senses. They'll figure out in a hurry that it's not real.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> I'm afraid I have to say, I seriously doubt the stuffed tiger protocol would yield results. Assuming the dog in question is stable.
> 
> I just won a large stuffed tiger in a random game of chance. I took it out to the parking lot and let both of dogs out of the car. Having never seen a large angry stuffed tiger before, they were quite happy to plop down next to it and enjoy a photo op. Not a hackle was raised, nor a peep from either.
> 
> Just some first hand experience....


This photo is amazing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Hmmm! I went back to read some comments, and from the first page was "I don't think the dog needs a trainer but you do," with plenty of likes. I am not saying the comment, or train of thought, is wrong, but the approach? Although I don't believe that the comment was made with any negative connotations, it easily can be misconstrued as such and may have set the tone.
> 
> No bad reflection on OP, but they are trying to raise a family in an unsavory part of town. That hints to me that money may be tight and maybe in OP's mind the money might be better spent budgeted to provide a better neighborhood for their children vs training an unruly dog? I have seen the prices some people have posted as to the cost of good dog trainers in their areas. It definitely puts a good trainer out of the price range of the average JQP.


New dog owner types, vicious, with respect to a six month old puppy = a dog owner who needs a trainer.

If times are tough and life is rough, then think about that BEFORE you bring a dog home. When you purchase a dog from a breeder or a shelter or a rescue, or keep a stray dog rather than turning it in, we should assume that you made the decision as a rational human being. 

If you bring home a dog, and it gets bitten by a poisonous snake, do you just sit there and watch it die because you don't have money to rush it to the vet? Would we be ok with that? 

Why is training so less important considering what the consequences too often are?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I would be surprised if it did more than give her pause the first time she saw it. Dogs use their other senses. They'll figure out in a hurry that it's not real.


Well people do "stuff" all the time??

Not gonna make a call on it but with my dogs ... Gunther would chew the eyes and nose off, Struddell would have grabbed it by the tail and dragged it around the yard and then into the house and "Rocky" would not care. He'd lay on if he cared at all. 

Dogs can indeed tell a toy from a real animal quite easily I would imagine?? Now maybe if you left it in a Dog Park and it got "peed" on ... then you might have something??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I would be surprised if it did more than give her pause the first time she saw it. Dogs use their other senses. They'll figure out in a hurry that it's not real.


Yea, That's why I mentioned only worth a couple of minutes of training time. Mine's apt to react like the dog in the video though. She will not be close enough to it to give it the "sniff" test, it will be on the other side of the fence about 3 feet away. I want her to walk the fenceline with me and come to ignore the thing on the sidewalk (without ever having the chance to investigate it closely). I want to reinforce the "leave it" and "stay with me" commands and reward for that with the ball as a redirect. This worked with the backyard fenceline (with real dog or person) and is still rock solid. I think she can make the leap.:laugh2: 

Ol' tiger's been lounging in the shop for two years, he needs to work a little too. lol


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well people do "stuff" all the time??
> 
> Dogs can indeed tell a toy from a real animal quite easily I would imagine?? Now maybe if you left it in a Dog Park and it got "peed" on ... then you might have something??


So, what's your take on the link I posted from "The other end of the leash"? Dogs definitely responded....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> So, what's your take on the link I posted from "The other end of the leash"? Dogs definitely responded....


I'm sorry don't remember it??? 

Right now I have 6 Browser windows and most likely at least 10 tabs in each of them. 

Narrow it down for me.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> New dog owner types, vicious, with respect to a six month old puppy = a dog owner who needs a trainer.
> 
> If times are tough and life is rough, then think about that BEFORE you bring a dog home. When you purchase a dog from a breeder or a shelter or a rescue, or keep a stray dog rather than turning it in, we should assume that you made the decision as a rational human being.
> 
> ...


I guess I missed the part where he knowingly or intentionally went out and purchased or adopted a vicious breed. Money is tight with many more GSD owners than not.

The fact is most GSD's work out and adapt very well in a home, there are exceptions. But playing the odds and the great majority are favorable, with good outcome - would anyone say that you should have anticipated this problem and saved enough money for a professional trainer or have several grand in the bank before you bring a dog home? and regardless of the time it takes to correct the problem (by a pro trainer) or YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE DOG. 

Here's the reality - if the money's tight and the owner can't afford a trainer and the problems continue - we all know what's going to happen. 

IMO - the only resource for someone in this situation is to be made aware of the difficulties and dedication it will take to try to straighten out this problem without a trainer and to recommend rehoming asap to an experienced home before things get too out of hand and the dog gets too old to be desirable by many. Intervention - not scolding.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> I'm sorry don't remember it???
> 
> Right now I have 6 Browser windows and most likely at least 10 tabs in each of them.
> 
> Narrow it down for me.


Can Fake Dogs Help Real Dogs?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think all this confinement is the root of so many problems with these dogs that we see on here. They are either confined to a backyard or a leash. Even on a longline, there is no way a dog can get up to a full run and not hit the end of that leash hard enough to ensure that it doesn't try that again, meanwhile risking physical damage to itself and its owner.
> 
> Also, if a dog has to gage its run preparing to make an abrupt stop or turn as is the case in so many small yards, it still is insufficient.


Longlines are a "PIA" but necessary until a dog has a solid recall. But That aside the dogs on leashes and in backyards "always" is by and large a big city thing for the most part. Leavening out the truly lazy dog owners that should only have "Gold Fish" or "Bull Dogs" even though "Bulldogs" seem to have the skateboarding and surfing thing nailed down?? 

But that aside when I did live in a real city, it was inconceivable to me that dogs would not be able to run unencumbered?? 

Gunther Am Band Dawg, pretty much ruled out my first choice ... Dog Parks. So I chose option two, find areas where dogs aren't. And in the city ... that would be business parks on the weekend! Lots of no dog no people free space! 

But I did not train recall first ... I chose Down and Stay. Long time ago but for whatever reason I decided ... "Recall" takes to much "thinking" but "Stay and Down" and I go to the dog were easier. Worked out fine for me and recall never seemed to be an issue in anycase. But I do remember choosing that option.

Business Parks are pretty common in city environment but then ... comes problem two for the unskilled new dog owner. The dog won't recall?? And the new dog owner is stuck?? If this dog is off leash .. he is gone!!

By and large I think the lack of recall is the reason so many dogs get "stuck on leashes" and "in backyards??" Just a guest??


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> . Dogs use their other senses. They'll figure out in a hurry that it's not real.


However ....I did have a TV tough pup for a bit with my first GSD.....other dogs on TV plus for some odd reason,the Stay Puft marshmallow man and Bib the Michelin man on the tube used to solicit a tough pup response from her....she figured it out eventually ...but it was entertaining while it lasted....

SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Sorry Chip, the 2nd link didn't go thru. My old windows XP is struggling. The link is at my original post #79 here. I don't think anyone read it....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> New dog owner types, vicious, with respect to a six month old puppy = a dog owner who needs a trainer.
> 
> If times are tough and life is rough, then think about that BEFORE you bring a dog home. When you purchase a dog from a breeder or a shelter or a rescue, or keep a stray dog rather than turning it in, we should assume that you made the decision as a rational human being.
> 
> ...


I am not saying I disagree with you about a trainer and if the case is as I speculated, then the safety of a family with children was given a lot of thought and prioritized before bringing a dog home on a possible budget. 

This I will disagree with you and others on, I keep hearing about OP having a small yard and leash walking this dog. I said it before and I will say it again, I think a lack of real exercise is a large contributing factor to this puppy misbehaving. No where has OP stated where they are giving this puppy outlets for its energy or drives, be it through training or through means as provided by mother nature. 

We don't know this but OP may have a little nest egg set aside for emergencies what will cover a dog being bitten by a snake or the blowing up of a car motor. IMO, to spend such savings on dog training would be squandering one's potentially meager resources. One needs to bear in mind, this is nothing but a German Shepherd puppy, not a T-Rex. OP needs some help and guidance, they are unsure. A lynch mob calling out for our way or the highway in the case of a GSD puppy that is not showing aggression might be construed as a bit much. How about a helping hand up?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Longlines are a "PIA" but necessary until a dog has a solid recall. But That aside the dogs on leashes and in backyards "always" is by and large a big city thing for the most part. Leavening out the truly lazy dog owners that should only have "Gold Fish" or "Bull Dogs" even though "Bulldogs" seem to have the skateboarding and surfing thing nailed down??
> 
> But that aside when I did live in a real city, it was inconceivable to me that dogs would not be able to run unencumbered??
> 
> ...


First of all we are talking about German Shepherds. I find it extremely difficult to get pictures when they are off leash because they just won't go that far away to get a good shot. Good luck with getting them to run away. Second, I have found that once you start leashing all the time, that without the intervention of a trainer, JQP can't seem to make the transition to off leash. I find it better to go to places as you suggested or behind malls, etc., and start the dog off leash to begin with and not to let a lot of bad behaviors develop that will need to be fixed later.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> I guess I missed the part where he knowingly or intentionally went out and purchased or adopted a vicious breed. Money is tight with many more GSD owners than not.
> 
> The fact is most GSD's work out and adapt very well in a home, there are exceptions. But playing the odds and the great majority are favorable, with good outcome - would anyone say that you should have anticipated this problem and saved enough money for a professional trainer or have several grand in the bank before you bring a dog home? and regardless of the time it takes to correct the problem (by a pro trainer) or YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TAKEN THE DOG.
> 
> ...


The breed is not vicious, nor is the 6 month old puppy. 

Quinnie barked _viciously_ at all the dogs in her first class -- ordinary training classes -- six classes costed a total of $110. Who hoo! That isn't dinner and a night's boozing and the local bar. The second class she barked a little bit then quieted. The third and forth classes no barking. 5 months later, I took her out again into the public, to a dog show, dogs everywhere, no barking, no stress. Went to a pool party afterwards with a bunch of young shepherds she had never met. No barking -- not once. The dog was four months old when I took her to classes and was done at 5 months -- we missed the last two classes. 

See here's the thing. I'm experienced. I know that dogs do not learn how to act around other dogs without other dogs being present. So I took her to classes. I am not concerned with how straight she sits, or how long she stays. I just want her to be comfortable in the presence of other dogs that ARE NOT going to make contact with her. 

This provided her with some very important socialization experience: Other dogs can exist in the world, but they do not need to come over to me. Fine. 5 months later with no walks, no puppy daycare, no doggy bootcamp, no regular maulings from the dogs down the street, and the dog has nothing to draw on but the fact that she has experienced dogs in the past that did not contact her, and she completely trusts me. So I could wind her through a dog show with 1000 dogs there, no problem. And then, because she trusts me, she could come with me and run free in a group of GSDs. And take a dip in the pool. 

No vicious barking at 6 months. Because she has seen dogs, and Susie did not allow those dogs to make contact before the puppy felt secure in herself and secure in her Susie. 

People who cannot afford a high priced trainer, maybe should get their dog into classes early. And you don't NEED to go to a high priced trainer at six months old. The first day at dog classes is hairy. It just is. If your dog isn't being an ass, them someone else's dog is, and usually there are several. And it feels all good when your dog is not the one. But if it is yours, it's just your turn. It's embarrassing. It is even tough, because someone might suggest something to you -- correct you if you will. And there you are eating humble pie. But, it takes an adult (of either sex) a man, or a woman, to stand up to the possibility of being told that they are doing it wrong, in order to get to a better place with their pooch. 

It is a lack of maturity to be too sensitive to be able to take criticism, to take instruction, to expose a weakness in the process of improving it, to say, "I am not going to pay for that." 

What frustrates me is that it is darn near impossible to explain to a new person how to decipher whether a trainer, whether classes are good or not. Any charlatan can put up a shingle, and make a website, and load it with glowing testimonials. 

You cannot say, "If you pay $100-$1000 for 1-10 sessions, that will be a good trainer." Nope, the scoundrels charge as much as other trainers. You cannot say that "If it is free it is not going to be good." While I have not met any good trainers in the free category, it doesn't mean there are not good programs put on by local shelters or whatever that are indeed free and good. If I was a director at a shelter, I would be working with every good trainer I knew to try to set up some sort of free training, and I would find the money to compensate the trainers from the budget. Why? Because lack of training gets dogs dumped.

I'll say that again: lack of training gets dogs dumped. 

So if I directed a shelter, if I was making the rules, it would be a requirement that every adopter had signed up and paid for a set of obedience classes or registers for the free class the shelter offered. 

It is so important. 

My point in responding to this fellow at all, is not to put him down for letting his pup get out of hand -- how does that help anyone. I am trying to impress upon him and anyone else reading the good in taking the dog to classes, if not a group, then one on one. 

There is just so much that a trainer can observe that we cannot because of where we are standing. A trainer can offer suggestions, and if that isn't working for dog or handler they can adjust it to suit both. 

What do you get on a youtube? You get Micheal Ellis, awesome. But, all you get is him showing you how it is done if he is handling a particular dog. What Micheal Ellis can do, what Sue Selzer can do, what MAWL can do -- well, it may not work for each of us the same. I may not be as disciplined in my body language. A trainer can tell me, "you need to..." A youtube cannot. A trainer can say, "that isn't the right collar for you." A youtube cannot. 

It is a much quicker (and cheaper) way to get from here to there. That's why we do it. We know how to teach a dog to sit and down and stay and come. But with the other dogs around and sometimes an outsider can see what we don't see with this particular puppy. So we go. We listen even if we are scoffing inside. And later in the day or the next day, we consider it. 

It is cheaper because when we attempt what trainer A does on his youtube (probably inexpertly), and that doesn't give the results we want, we do not do it in front of a mirror to see what the heck we are doing wrong. We discount that method and maybe that trainer, and we try another person's method. Eventually we hit on one that works for our dog. He gets it. But the next thing we try to teach from this dudes method does not work. The more we try and fail with different methods, the more confused the dog is, and the less confidence he has in us. If we are unlucky, we will need an individual trainer to get ourself out of the mess we put ourself in. 

When someone says in a post that he doesn't need a trainer, or he isn't going to bother with a trainer, or there are no trainers, or he isn't going to pay for training, he can do it himself. For me it indicates an inexperienced newbie. For some reason, most of us have to fail miserably with a dog before we figure out that we maybe could benefit by going to classes or getting a trainer.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> The breed is not vicious, nor is the 6 month old puppy.
> 
> Quinnie barked _viciously_ at all the dogs in her first class -- ordinary training classes -- six classes costed a total of $110. Who hoo! That isn't dinner and a night's boozing and the local bar. The second class she barked a little bit then quieted. The third and forth classes no barking. 5 months later, I took her out again into the public, to a dog show, dogs everywhere, no barking, no stress. Went to a pool party afterwards with a bunch of young shepherds she had never met. No barking -- not once. The dog was four months old when I took her to classes and was done at 5 months -- we missed the last two classes.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 1,000% and thank you for taking the time to post this response! You're awesome! Your advise is rock solid as always.

I don't jump into posts so much anymore, but- I always will here when $ is an issue. Because it is real, I am living it and only a wing and a prayer are getting me thru my end goal. To achieve 70 years and have another livelong GSD bud by my side.

I brought up in a post in the past, that the reason some may reject sound, obvious advice is because of money issues. I have come to believe that maybe up to half of the newbie complaints and seemingly failure to respond to great advice is due to money issues.

We know it's an issue - but how many respond with "that's a great idea but there's no money for that"? The anger and frustration with the newbies, IMO at least 50% stems from this. No one wants to admit or at least tell the world (here) that they are income challenged.

So, if you suspect that is at the root of the problem - a different set of recommendations should kick in - shouldn't they???

More people own GSD's that are not knowledgeable than those who are. Hopefully, the future will change this but for now. I am trying to learn enough so I might be of better help to be a liaison and representative of some of the "money challenged" and less knowledgeable that come here for help.

I hope that you will understand my position and when I post on a topic that you'all know I should know better on, that this is what I'm trying to do. I am the pet owner, I am the inexperienced, but I have my dog's best health I can provide as my goal - that is mentally and physically.

I would rather you all understand what my focus is and who I'm trying to represent then think of me as the ignorant bad guy. As you know by now, I have thick skin in the end goal.

Yet another newbie bites the dust... I want to be a part of what keeps communication going, and at times I will call you out.. it's not because I don't know - it's because it's getting too overwhelming for the newbie and they're about to book.....:smile2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Can Fake Dogs Help Real Dogs?


LOL ... I will not poke and make fun of people. 

But I just can't take that "concept seriously." All I do "apparently" is take sound basic concepts and put a spin on them to fit circumstances. 

I'll credit Tylor Muto with "The Controversial Leash work":






What I see there .. is a "variation of the short leash done with the "KMODT" only difference is you do "give a crap" where the dog is. 

He ticked me off with his training "Place" videos ... I'll let that go at that. 

Is the front yard behaviour an "issue" for you now??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... I will not poke and make fun of people.
> 
> But I just can't take that "concept seriously." All I do "apparently" is take sound basic concepts and put a spin on them to fit circumstances.
> 
> ...


Lol, I watched the first 10 seconds of that video, watched the dog scratch.... That is not my dog. She's big but fast, caught a squirrel, caught a mouse. Wants to kill every living thing she sees other than people - but, thank the stars - she loves people! You could put her on planet X and if she saw something alive move - does not matter how uncomfortable she is with her surroundings, she would book to kill that animal - that is her mandate.

I am there, I think however, now being the most important and best thing to her. I am ready to take control and attempt to control all drives in her. I watched her change from month to month and developments, and changes - now, I've had time to be ready to take the controls without killing her spirit. That has been my delay and that has been my want. I don't want to kill her spirit and we've had some setbacks on that, so I am respectful of that line. Takes a little longer, sure, but it's worth it to me.

With this fake tiger thing, it's not about anything but her obedience and focus on ME regardless of the distraction. I don't care if there's a alien screaming blue mimi fireworks out it's but out there on the sidewalk on the OTHER side of our property - I want her to learn to put breaks on and trust me when I say "leave it" and we go about our business....

That is, not just to be non reactive to other dogs, I see no reason to go thru the extreme effort at her age (2) and not ask all - her absolute trust in me - that when I say "leave it" and "stay with me" that's exactly what she needs to do. 

WE can do this... we're so close.. she's so responsive... she's amazing.... I believe we can do this in just a few tries, but we are isolated and that's the way it is - so we will make do.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> The breed is not vicious, nor is the 6 month old puppy.
> 
> Quinnie barked _viciously_ at all the dogs in her first class -- ordinary training classes -- six classes costed a total of $110. Who hoo! That isn't dinner and a night's boozing and the local bar. The second class she barked a little bit then quieted. The third and forth classes no barking. 5 months later, I took her out again into the public, to a dog show, dogs everywhere, no barking, no stress. Went to a pool party afterwards with a bunch of young shepherds she had never met. No barking -- not once. The dog was four months old when I took her to classes and was done at 5 months -- we missed the last two classes.
> 
> ...


That's an excellent post. I let my frustration come through in my previous post. I've been though this as the newbie and as the not-so-newbie with an attitude until it didn't work and I was faced with putting a rescued dog down or hiring a trainer. 

This week I had a session with a private trainer on an advanced Obedience task. He worked the dog and ended up shaping a perfect response. He handed me the leash and the dog kept looking at him instead of me when I gave a command. The trainer said stay calm and keep working him, then told me not to crowd the dog, not to move but let the dog come to me. He showed me how to use the leash differently. I thought I was doing exactly what what he had showed me but until he watched and critiqued me, I was not copying exactly. Within about five minutes I was able to duplicate what the trainer had done and the dog was then focusing on me. If I had been copying a video, it never would have happened.

I agree with MAWL and others. It's possible for anyone to train a dog without using a trainer. But we can only go by what someone says. When I read more than once that an owner can't control their dog and the dog's behavior has escalated, I can only go by what the person has posted. I don't know what's in their head. After giving exact steps to many new dog owners here and watching them ignore them, or skip from one suggestion to another, I can see why a lot of the long time members of this forum no longer give newbie advice.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> The breed is not vicious, nor is the 6 month old puppy.
> 
> Quinnie barked _viciously_ at all the dogs in her first class -- ordinary training classes -- six classes costed a total of $110. Who hoo! That isn't dinner and a night's boozing and the local bar. The second class she barked a little bit then quieted. The third and forth classes no barking. 5 months later, I took her out again into the public, to a dog show, dogs everywhere, no barking, no stress. Went to a pool party afterwards with a bunch of young shepherds she had never met. No barking -- not once. The dog was four months old when I took her to classes and was done at 5 months -- we missed the last two classes.
> 
> ...


I have to give this a like because it is a good post for 95% of dog owners out there. 

But the 5% ers yeah ... not so much. I've "proved" the other dog association thing is not true, not once or twice but there times as many dogs as I have had and it was* "years"* before my dogs "ever" had contact with another dog. I don't do other dogs. 

Still on one occasion with Struddell and Gunther (White Boxer and former dog aggressive American Band Dawg.)

I was forced on one occasion to round up not one, not two but three strays!! 

A Shiba Inu a Jack Russell and a Shih Tzu, they were heading for the Hwy past my house. And I was hoping I could save at least one. I called the Shih Tzu and the others followed??

My dogs were inside in "Place" and I could not risk taking time to secure them, I opened the door and added a "Stay" and in they went! After a few minutes I released my dogs from "Place" and everyone got along fine for the most part. The only "issue" was the Shih Tzu, who must have thought "Gunther" was to large?? She'd bark in Gunther's face if she tried to approach her and he respected her space.

I watched for a few minutes and saw "zero" issues and let Gunther (former dog aggressive Band Dawg) and Struddell (White Boxer) the Jack Russell and the Shiba Inu all outside to play. The Shih Tzu preferred to stay with me. 

I went to the back and sat in my chair and she followed ... she wanted to greet one of the cats, the cat was like "I don't know you" the Shih Tzu turned and laid down by my feet. I looked down at her and thought ... "cool dog." 

We found the owners and drove the dogs home, a child answered the door and Marilyn asked him if he had three dogs?? He said yes, they are in the back yard. And Marilyn said no ... I think they are in my car. Yes they were, they had gotten out the gate and traveled a mile and a half from home heading towards the Hwy! 

So ... same behaviour around other dogs achieved "through different means" as my dogs also had never had any negative experiences with other dogs either. And I mean 100% absolutely "Never" been closer than 3 feet to another dog (Vets office.) I achieved the exact same results you did through other means. A Balanced dog is a Balanced dog ... some are "born" (my Boxer) that way and some are made that way (Gunther) ... I've had both. 

Those are my results but ... you know 5% ers ... not worth a battle. Good Post for the vast majority of dog owners though.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Dotbat215 said:


> I don't think anyone here is saying that DIY is evil. In fact, the beginning of the thread had a lot of advice that she didn't need a trainer for. I think people get irritated when someone starts a thread, other users give advice based on the information given, and then the OP starts correcting people's perception of the situation even though they're going on the info that the OP gave in the first place. When someone comes to you for help because they don't know what to do and then critiques your advice it gets frustrating. The advice may not resonate with her, but if nothing has worked so far then I don't see any reason (barring safety) to give it a shot.
> 
> And saying "no trainers!" because one was a jerk and the other took a long vacation right after you signed up (the trainer should have been more upfront but I don't think its the biggest sin) seems like throwing baby out with the bath water to me.
> 
> Its like having a bad doctor experience and vowing to never go to any doctor ever. It's fine if you feel a cold coming on, but if you start having bigger issues you're going to be in trouble.


Yes! I tried to help in the OP's previous discussion and got nowhere. I believe the OP said something to the effect that we are all here to offer free training advice. Well, actually, no. I'm here to share about German Shepherds with other people who love the breed. If I can help someone at the same time, that's good. If not, it's too much work to offer suggestions that are never followed or are argued with. When I saw that happening to other people, I backed off. If the OP wants to see what I have done, search for my previous posts on leash work. I have made several. All of which were things I paid trainers over a period of time to teach me.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip, I don't like forced socialization with other dogs, either, but I don't alway have a choice. When you go anywhere that dogs are allowed, you are likely to run into other dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Sorry Chip, the 2nd link didn't go thru. My old windows XP is struggling. The link is at my original post #79 here. I don't think anyone read it....


OK I'll check and XP?? Yeah that's gonna be "problematic going forward." 

11 inch tablets with WIn 10 are under 100 dollars these days, and other even less expensive options are avialable. Drop me a line when/if you start to check out options. 

Post 79 ... on it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I have noticed that recently you have become one of the top 3 "training advisors" here. I want to commend you that you relate that you are still in training yourself. That is a rare bit of fact here. 

It makes me wonder sometimes, why some posters, in the two years that I have been here anyway... have never asked ONE question. I've always thought of a site like this as an evolving thing with all levels of expertise but there is a consistency and I wonder about it. 

It's not just this site but others. Why will some always have advise to offer but never, ever have one question?

It's, certainly not you and I've seen Selzer ask questions on several occasions but others..... makes me a little wary when they are not pro trainers and never seem to sight recent personal experiences with their own dogs.... just kinda weird to me. How does one throw all in with a ghost lol!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> OK I'll check and XP?? Yeah that's gonna be "problematic going forward."
> 
> 11 inch tablets with WIn 10 are under 100 dollars these days, and other even less expensive options are avialable. Drop me a line when/if you start to check out options.
> 
> Post 79 ... on it.


Thanks Chip - just need to get this system to carry me thru to March, then I hope to go to something better than 10. Things are looking better for me in my financial future, so come-on March! lol

I have over 75,000 photos on this hard drive I need but come March, they can go poof and I won't care. It's just the juiced up ads they have here since their new format - I have to put ol' nellie into safezone to even post here at all.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> First of all we are talking about German Shepherds. I find it extremely difficult to get pictures when they are off leash because they just won't go that far away to get a good shot. Good luck with getting them to run away. Second, I have found that once you start leashing all the time, that without the intervention of a trainer, JQP can't seem to make the transition to off leash. I find it better to go to places as you suggested or behind malls, etc., and start the dog off leash to begin with and not to let a lot of bad behaviors develop that will need to be fixed later.


GSD's won't go away from there owners if off leash ... interesting ... back to that in a bit.

I'm merely speculating as to the why of always on leash and in back yard dogs. I understand the "exercise bit is your thing" and yes "back yard dog and on leash only," is usually involved in dogs behaving badly.

I speculate that it's because they can't recall there dogs?? I don't know and no one tends to ask them. At least not without an attitude.

But typically a poster has a problem "anyway" exercise is proposed. If the answer is "Backyard or Walks" the poster is then "assumed" to be "lazy as well as incompetent" and it's all downhill from there. 

If a "question" is viewed as a "challenge" you have a "situation." I don't know that's just how "I" see it, not my thing. 


But the off leash won't go away thing ... without his "Struddell" that's Rocky! Wobbly dog so he could never keep up with her but he was capable of trotting and with her he would go off in the distance and then back to me following Struddell. On a walk in the desert she covered four times the ground I did exercise was easy. 

But when she went over the "Rainbow." On our very first walk ...no more trotting?? He won't go more that 10 15 yards from me and certainly will not trot?? If I stop he stops, I go he goes, pretty much step for step. 

He's happy all the time but clearly without his girl ...not the same. Just not something I expected to happen.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> GSD's won't go away from there owners if off leash ... interesting ... back to that in a bit.
> 
> *I'm merely speculating as to the why of always on leash and in back yard dogs. I understand the "exercise bit is your thing" and yes "back yard dog and on leash only," is usually involved in dogs behaving badly.
> 
> ...


See, that is where I think you have it backwards. I think that backyards and leashes create the bad behavior. The dogs don't recall because they were micromanaged to the point of near mental suffocation, never allowed to be a dog, never given proper exercise to be mentally and physically healthy, and this is causing the bad behavior and a refusal to recall if finally given an opportunity to be a dog. 

I don't think YOU realize how much of your success with getting the dogs you want derived from plenty of exercise and freedom to be dogs vs your efforts to train.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I have a similar problem with my dog. So, I'm going to try this, specifically for her fenceline aggression with dogs. I will be right there to discourage and reward. This should be interesting. It is the same size tiger as in the video. I've had it in the shop for a couple of years and she's never seen it. The 2nd link explains why I think a stuffed tiger might aid as a training tool. At least until she figures out it's not real. But, still it will allow me to get a couple of minutes of vital training in - I hope. The tiger will be outside the chain link fence on the sidewalk when I bring her out on her regular leash and prong to do walk by's with correction and reward. I hope the neighbors don't mind a minute of mindless barking.
> 
> https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...ZnOAhUj6IMKHcBaArEQMwhpKEEwQQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
> 
> Can Fake Dogs Help Real Dogs?


I took a look and it's interesting ... to be fair the only reason I read the article is because I saw "Patricia B. McConnell" name?? She happens to the only "Behaviourist" I have any use for ... Five things to do with a a Fearful Dog turns out to be almost the same thing as Leerburghs "Who Pets my Puppy or Dog." 

But I have to say that the fact that the SPCA is using it ... pretty much says it's of little predictive value. I saw there "work" on full display at a "Boxer and Buddies" event. Absolutely appalling behavior by every dog they had there (SPCA!) 

Our dogs were model citizens, there dogs were a horror show! If those were the dogs they brought out for public display at an adoption event. It kinda says to me at least that anything they endorse is crap! 

Still you never know. People do stuff all the time in ways that others say "can't" be done. Our newest Boxer members 'Smokie" at 16 weeks is already Trained in Place and walking off leash. And he used an E Collar and Prong apparently very early on. And he "shows his work" I've seen the results and I'm impressed.

But hey give the Tiger a shot it couldn't hurt.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> See, that is where I think you have it backwards. I think that backyards and leashes create the bad behavior. The dogs don't recall because they were micromanaged to the point of near mental suffocation, never allowed to be a dog, never given proper exercise to be mentally and physically healthy, and this is causing the bad behavior and a refusal to recall if finally given an opportunity to be a dog.
> 
> I don't think YOU realize how much of your success with getting the dogs you want derived from plenty of exercise and freedom to be dogs vs your efforts to train.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnOKp5uY-Lg


Oh I suppose so I do what works and I find "Balance in all" is the key to success ... apparently??

On here it's lack of exercise, on Boxerforum members complain of the "exact opposite" and still have the same problem. 

So for me a "pox' on all. Tell me the problem I'll find a solution.,If the solution is exercise ... then I guess I won't find it?? That attitude does not make me right .. but it does keep me focused.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't know about all that. I just put the links up there because I knew someone would say, that won't work. But, apparently there is some initial reaction and that's what I'm hoping to capture. I think it's crazy that they use a stuffed animal to rate their dogs. Such an inferior method used to decide the life or death of a dog. Sad.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I've taken a Reactive Rover class. The goal is to keep the dogs in the class under threshold. So the class is set up to keep the stress level down.

A pretend dog on rollers is used first. All dogs are brought separately into class by a "helper" from the car and returned to cars separately. The helper scopes out the parking lot to make sure no other dogs are around.

Dogs are in separate cubicles so they cannot see other dogs. Dogs are brought out one by one to work. At the far end of the room a pretend dog is rolled out from the "wings." The dog's level of arousal is noted. From then on, real dogs will be brought out in the same way. Lowers surprises.

There were 8 dogs in my class facilitated by a behaviorist. The pretend dog gave her a sense of "nerve temperament" of the dog. No dog lunged or barked. They did notice the dog. One dog was so nervous in the class, it was kept in the car by the side door to be brought in to work and then returned to the car.

When real dogs were brought out, there was no lunging, maybe a bark or two. The dogs were trained to look at the dog and then turn away for treats. Later the test real dog was walked back and forth at one end of the room while the reactive dog was walked at the other end. The dogs were parallel to each other.

I think the dogs in my class knew the stuffed toy was not real. But they were aware from then on that something might come out from that wing and go back and forth.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Still you never know. People do stuff all the time in ways that others say "can't" be done. Our newest Boxer members 'Smokie" at 16 weeks is already Trained in Place and walking off leash. And he used an E Collar and Prong apparently very early on. And he "shows his work" I've seen the results and I'm impressed.


What made this person feel compelled to put an e collar and a prong of a tiny baby who has been in this world for just a few mere weeks? Why did they feel such a need to micromanage such a young dog to that degree? My puppies walk off leash from the day I get them, usually at nine weeks of age. They come out of the box like that, I take no credit for teaching a natural occurrence. 




Chip18 said:


> On here it's lack of exercise, on Boxerforum members complain of the "exact opposite" and still have the same problem.


??? I am really confused on that one. Just what are they complaining about that is resulting from an appropriate level of exercise?


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Stone,

I think if the stuffed toy was moving, it might be more effective. Good job in thinking of creative ways to work your dog along the fence.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Moriah said:


> There were 8 dogs in my class facilitated by a behaviorist. The pretend dog gave her a sense of "nerve temperament" of the dog.


I think that dogs do have some kind of "shape recognition" that triggers until they can employ their other senses to further identify and classify what they are seeing. This would be very beneficial for a wild dog ancestor.

The antique shop I used to own had a life size metal steer statue out front. It was a good attractor for business and the kids liked to climb up and "ride". My major amusement with it was the dogs on leash walking by it. None went by their first time without showing some pretty major reaction. Some, fear and it was a good thing they were leashed because they tried to run away straight toward street traffic. Others would give "warning barks" crouch and immediately try to identify by scent but keeping their distance. It was so funny to watch some of the larger breeds drag their owner to the rear of the statue so they could smell it's but.:laugh2:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Moriah said:


> Stone,
> 
> I think if the stuffed toy was moving, it might be more effective. Good job in thinking of creative ways to work your dog along the fence.


Ha! Thank You! I will rig some fishing line to the tiger and tie it off on the fence. I can give a little anonymous tug when we walk by:grin2: I also have a skateboard....naw - even my dog would cry bull on that!:grin2:


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

NYCgsd said:


> A little back story. When I got her at 8 weeks old she was very submissive to other dogs. Would lay down before they approached, would play with other dogs. There were a few times where other dogs would viciously bark at her. ONE time an old jolly idiot comes over to my side of the street with his big dumb intact lab. The lab starts humping my dog. She didnt like it and snapped at the lab.
> Well I dont know if it was that incident, or that she is friends with a 3-pack of dogs around my block who ALWAYS bark at any dog passing by. Maybe she picked up the habit from them. Fast forward, the past month or so my 6 month old viciously barks at 95% of the dogs she sees. Mostly its at dogs smaller than her. Now, when the owner has the courage to let them meet even after all the barking my dog never snaps at them and never barks anymore, she plays with the dogs. But if she sees them coming like 50 feet away, or across the street its a very loud growling, and persistent bark.
> Need some advice here please. I will not hire a trainer I'm sorry, I do pretty well training her myself. The lunging and jumping on people is getting better and better I just need some advice here.


I changed my mind and will explain again. I have posted in other threads, but since you didn't see them, this is what I have done and why. Dogs do not need to meet up close to be socialized. I prefer to work at a distance until seeing another dog becomes no big deal, and gradually work closer. But if you can't get distance because there are too many dogs, the best you can do is get up to the other dog quickly and get that initial greeting part over with. They should sniff and then back away. You do that with slight leash pressure so the dog doesn't think a tight leash is a cue to get upset.

Do you know anyone else with a calm, older, non reactive dog you can introduce your puppy to? Walking with another dog that doesn't react is the best way to get your puppy behaving well on a walk. That is why people recommend obedience classes. They are as much for socialization as for training.

If there is a park where you can have an escape route, you can desensitize your puppy to other dogs. Watch your dog at all times. You need to be aware of your surroundings all around you, all the time. Know what your puppy does just before barking. Do her ears go down? Does she lean down like she is getting ready to lunge? The second you see the pre barking behaviors, turn and walk away. That's what I mean by an escape route, your goal should be that your dog never barks at another dog again. Allowing her to bark is training her to bark. If you can stop it every time before she barks, and do that consistently for six months, she will be fine.

One good day does not make a dog fine, months of consistent behavior does. The reason I got so frustrated with your responses is that I could have been you years ago when I rescued a fear based aggressive dog. Your dog isn't aggressive yet, but you have a recipe for that to become a permanent behavior, which is why you have to stop it now and not let it become permanent.

One reason people are so adamant about a good trainer is that timing and reactions are everything in dog training. You are very likely doing something you don't realize that makes the dog think barking or jumping is/was acceptable behavior. Since you don't have access to a trainer, which I will take your word for, see if you can find someone with experience locally who will help you as a volunteer. Try the shelter. Contact a rescue and ask them. Rescues want to keep dogs out of their rescues and usually have good trainers on hand.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

One of my my neighbors has a pair of metal goose statues on their front yard. When I initially got my dog we used them a few times to practice "leave it".... Once we got close enough he figured it out but from a distance he erred on the side of them being real.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What made this person feel compelled to put an e collar and a prong of a tiny baby who has been in this world for just a few mere weeks? Why did they feel such a need to micromanage such a young dog to that degree? My puppies walk off leash from the day I get them, usually at nine weeks of age. They come out of the box like that, I take no credit for teaching a natural occurrence.


LOL ... yesss, I told him that on here "this" is exactly what people would say! 

I only found out because I asked questions?? Just because something is not traditional does not mean it can't be done?? I solved my H/A issues on my own. 

If I can do something "unusal" without a "Trainer" then I figure so can others. They just need to know how ... 5 percenter. So "Smokieandthebandit " showed up with a very young puppy already trained in "Place" and apparently off leash trained???

I was stunned?? Pretty much on "BoxerForum" few knew what to make of this??? But I did and because as it happens he is also a follower of Jeff Gellman .. he "showed his work!" So all could see his "Boxer." That pretty much cut off it "can't be done" at the knees! "We" tend to be willing to except reality over there ... just saying. 

He and his "puppy" impressed me and that takes a bit. I still said "well OK, you can do it but I don't know that others can??" But that those tools can be used on a puppy that young if used properly ... is no longer in doubt! "Show your work" and he did ... "Nuff Said." 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> ??? I am really confused on that one. Just what are they complaining about that is resulting from an appropriate level of exercise?


There is "nothing" to be confused about?? Lots of exercise does not work. 

I don't know why the difference but on "BoxerForum" as a whole, Boxer owners seem to do the "exercise" thing as a matter of course. They will find places and let there dogs "loose" the dogs fly and jump and spin and always look they are going to crash into hill because they don't seem to care where they are going as long as they get there fast and first!

They don't care as long as they are "moving" they are good with that. That's why they are dog number one to be asked to "not come back" to doggy day cares" to much "maintenance" and the GSD owners tend to be next in line. 

But at the end of the day ... they are on "Boxerforum" complaining of the "exact same" things that people with dogs that don't get to do that complain of here! My dog won't mind, my dog does not settle down at home etc, etc.

Near as I can tell the answer for that comes from "here." A member on here said he was a marathon runner or cyclist I don't remember?? But ... everyday his dog would "run" for at least "5 miles" may have been more?? And what he found was that he had created a "Super Athlete" of a dog that could go on for "hours!" Exact same problems!

That made sense to me! No way would I have been able to outrun or out last "Struddel" in "anything endurance wise?? 

So "my" conclusion was that "exercise" was "irrelevant" as a solution for dogs that don't "Chill" the heck out. So I never bother to ask about it ... others are of course free to draw there own conclusions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I don't know about all that. I just put the links up there because I knew someone would say, that won't work. But, apparently there is some initial reaction and that's what I'm hoping to capture. I think it's crazy that they use a stuffed animal to rate their dogs. Such an inferior method used to decide the life or death of a dog. Sad.


ASPCA/SPCA as I said, I saw there dogs at an event and I was not impressed. 

But "credible" people have seen "something??" So there is that, as for the SPCA" using "this" for "predictive values ... see my first stence. 

I'd view the "Stuff Toy" thing like a "Thunder Shirt" sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't ... depends on the dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I changed my mind and will explain again. I have posted in other threads, but since you didn't see them, this is what I have done and why. Dogs do not need to meet up close to be socialized. I prefer to work at a distance until seeing another dog becomes no big deal, and gradually work closer. But if you can't get distance because there are too many dogs, the best you can do is get up to the other dog quickly and get that initial greeting part over with. They should sniff and then back away. You do that with slight leash pressure so the dog doesn't think a tight leash is a cue to get upset.
> 
> Do you know anyone else with a calm, older, non reactive dog you can introduce your puppy to? Walking with another dog that doesn't react is the best way to get your puppy behaving well on a walk. That is why people recommend obedience classes. They are as much for socialization as for training.
> 
> ...


A+ for effort! 

I'm only adamant on if he plans to make some changes to his expectations of what he will do with this dog?? 

And I saw note of a DIY PPD, attempt??? Is that for real??? That's kinda "insane" if accurate ... wrong dog wrong owner kinda thing.

Even "I" wouldn't attempt that, for what's that worth???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... yesss, I told him that on here "this" is exactly what people would say!
> 
> I only found out because I asked questions?? Just because something is not traditional does not mean it can't be done?? I solved my H/A issues on my own.
> 
> ...


Oh and want to add again, puppies are born knowing off leash, they need to be taught a leash. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8010561-post13.html

If your conclusion is that exercise is irrelevant, you have no idea of the definition of balance. A dog that is not healthy and in good condition should not be expected to perform in the same capacity of one that is. You always say that you like to quote the professionals. Whoomp! There it is!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Oh and want to add again, puppies are born knowing off leash, they need to be taught a leash.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8010561-post13.html
> 
> ...


The video and this thread kind of got me thinking. @NYCgsd made a previous thread about him letting too many people pet his dog which resulted in his dog wanting to jump on and play with strangers (his theory). And now he thinks by letting other dogs meet his dog, there could have been a negative experience somewhere (like his dog getting humped) which now resulted in his dog showing aggression to other dogs.
It goes back to socialization. Maybe we should just not let strangers pet our dogs? Or not let them interact with other dogs? 
I just can't help but think that if he didn't let so many people pet his dog, then she wouldn't be jumping on people looking to play. And if he didn't let other dogs interact with his dog, she wouldn't have had a bad experience and become dog aggressive. He did say that at first she would submit and play, and then something happened and she seemingly changed very quickly. I'm starting to really support the leerburg theory on not letting anyone or any dog interact with a new pup. Think about it, you don't have your pup interact with a car or a chair, and they don't even pay attention to it on walks and such. It's a tough question, because on one hand you risk having them be not socialized, on the other hand, you risk having to correct another behavior issue down the road.
Socialization is very important I feel, because if you do it wrong, or just get unlucky with a bad experience, it can ruin the dog. I guess thats why Leerburg just exposes their dogs to new environments, but doesn't let strangers or strange dogs interact with his.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

You're going to school me on Bailiff and Lou??? :laugh2:

Exercise is your thing not mine, no has ever asked me "how much exercise do you think my dog needs??" They don't care and neither do I. That does not make "us" correct but yeah then again ... we don't care.

5 percent number I pulled out of the air, but "Selzer" did make me "aware" that I was way overestimating the ability of "JQP!" So I spent my time "rectifying" my overestimate and another "mistake" that was worth my time. 

I am JQP average pet person and "I" can train a dog to walk properly, using a SLL in less than 4 minutes on average, if you think 95% of average pet owners can do likewise ... I stand corrected.

And as for the rest ... you drew and made a lot of "conclusions and assumptions" that I did not make?? To wit I said what most people would say about the tools he used "not" you in particular.

If you raise a point don't get defensive when people reply. It doesn't mean they think it's your beliefs, necessarily. You have a lot of valuable insight. If you recall a long time ago I said you do "something" but I don't know what it is?? Well ...maybe that's it??

In my "meme" free days ... most likely, I would have spent a bit of time refuting each item you raised point by point ... the Lou thing ... sigh?? But now ... I find that tiresome and counter productive to actually helping people. 

So ... the clock is ticking down for me "here." Spending time thinking about how I could actually help people on "BoxerWorld" (I was Gunther on there) with there aggressive dog issues??? 
Home of click and treat, you know if a cookie can't fix it ..."PTS" will. But the rules are all stacked in "PO" trainers favor?? No link to outside "Dog Sites" for one ... pretty much made to order for the said she said! That alone ... makes me "toast!"  

But figuring out a way around that ..yes ... that's worth my time.  

Boxerforum, tends to be pretty boring if "aggression issues" are your thing. Oh well ... but Smokie ... his owner is on youtube, so you can tell him he's wrong on there if you wish. 

Just saying it, I list references to trainers I recommend all the time. Apparently the "owners" tend to follow the advice given?? And the critics never bother ... that's just what I observe, it's not about you.


So yeah ... sorry but I am disinclined to engage in "bickering" or "one Upmanship." The rules ... you know.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Julian G said:


> The video and this thread kind of got me thinking. @NYCgsd made a previous thread about him letting too many people pet his dog which resulted in his dog wanting to jump on and play with strangers (his theory). And now he thinks by letting other dogs meet his dog, there could have been a negative experience somewhere (like his dog getting humped) which now resulted in his dog showing aggression to other dogs.
> It goes back to socialization. Maybe we should just not let strangers pet our dogs? Or not let them interact with other dogs?
> I just can't help but think that if he didn't let so many people pet his dog, then she wouldn't be jumping on people looking to play. And if he didn't let other dogs interact with his dog, she wouldn't have had a bad experience and become dog aggressive. He did say that at first she would submit and play, and then something happened and she seemingly changed very quickly. I'm starting to really support the leerburg theory on not letting anyone or any dog interact with a new pup. Think about it, you don't have your pup interact with a car or a chair, and they don't even pay attention to it on walks and such. It's a tough question, because on one hand you risk having them be not socialized, on the other hand, you risk having to correct another behavior issue down the road.
> Socialization is very important I feel, because if you do it wrong, or just get unlucky with a bad experience, it can ruin the dog. I guess thats why Leerburg just exposes their dogs to new environments, but doesn't let strangers or strange dogs interact with his.


NYC recently did a thread face palming himself for the his dog jumping on people because he had let people pet his dog. Now he is having a problem with his dog and other dogs. I think a lot of his problem stems simply from excitement which can lead to frustration and reactivity. IMO, a good degree of the problem was created, but I also believe there may be other things going on here.

Many people believe in exposure, which does not allow for interaction vs socialization which does, and then there are others who disagree with these terms themselves. Personally, I use a modified method of exposure which permits petting within reason at the vet's, Petco, or somewhere dog oriented. I am not a leash person, so when my dogs encounter other dogs, it is almost always an off leash encounter so that reduces much of the excitement and frustration. There are risks with dogs meeting dogs for bad encounters but IMO, the risks of a problematic encounter are far more common when least expected.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Exercise is your thing not mine, no has ever asked me "how much exercise do you think my dog needs??" They don't care and neither do I. That does not make "us" correct but yeah then again ... we don't care.
> 
> Spending time thinking about how I could actually help people on "BoxerWorld" (I was Gunther on there) with there aggressive dog issues???


If one creates the other, then a bit contradictory, no?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Julian G said:


> The video and this thread kind of got me thinking. @NYCgsd made a previous thread about him letting too many people pet his dog which resulted in his dog wanting to jump on and play with strangers (his theory). And now he thinks by letting other dogs meet his dog, there could have been a negative experience somewhere (like his dog getting humped) which now resulted in his dog showing aggression to other dogs.
> It goes back to socialization. Maybe we should just not let strangers pet our dogs? Or not let them interact with other dogs?
> I just can't help but think that if he didn't let so many people pet his dog, then she wouldn't be jumping on people looking to play. And if he didn't let other dogs interact with his dog, she wouldn't have had a bad experience and become dog aggressive. He did say that at first she would submit and play, and then something happened and she seemingly changed very quickly. I'm starting to really support the leerburg theory on not letting anyone or any dog interact with a new pup. Think about it, you don't have your pup interact with a car or a chair, and they don't even pay attention to it on walks and such. It's a tough question, because on one hand you risk having them be not socialized, on the other hand, you risk having to correct another behavior issue down the road.
> Socialization is very important I feel, because if you do it wrong, or just get unlucky with a bad experience, it can ruin the dog. I guess thats why Leerburg just exposes their dogs to new environments, but doesn't let strangers or strange dogs interact with his.


You're making it way more complicated than it is. If a dog likes people a dog likes people.

Exposure, see but don't touch, won't change that. And the badly behaved dog that jumps all over people?? That's pretty much "Socialization" run wild ... 100 people in 100 days kind of thing with a badly behaved people loving dogs with no limits put on them??

Most likely a requirement to set or down "first" and then greet, would have prevented the crazy?? But by and large people figure that if there dog likes people ... they have no "issues" to be concerned with in regards to people. 

Dogs that can't control there jumping end up in shelters right along side the biters when the owners have had enough. 


And the other dog thing, that's easy ... I just flat say no!! I can't even imagine a world where a dog I don't is given the opportunity to hump my girl??? Hmm... who was not fixed for a very long time by the way. "I" never had an issue with other dogs because, they would have to get by first ...period! 

This dog/puppy was by the OP's admission "submissive" and instead of showing her that other dogs meant "nothing" by having her back and keeping other dog out of her space! He chose the "you need to suck it up approach" and let her fend for herself. And she was then able to "confirm" her "assumption" about other dogs. Yes ... be afraid, be very afraid because other dogs will hurt you and no one has my back??? Dog aggressive fear biter in the making ... I'll get them before they get me! None of my dogs were ever taught that lesson.

Can it be "fixed" yes ...but not if he continues to do the exact same crap. Hence why I asked ... the answer or non answer says everything.


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## Phronesis (Feb 4, 2016)

I haven't read through all the responses here, but in case no one has yet mentioned it you might try classic counterconditioning. This has been highly successful for many dogs. Here's a site where you can get good information: careforreactivedogs.com

(there's also a Facebook group called "Reactive Dogs" where you can, virtually, hang out with other folks dealing with similar issues).


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Chip18 I have to ask....do you really believe a working dog can be content,bidable,mentally and physically healthy while spending it's life restricted by a six foot leash?Exercise has no importance?Zero?
I agree with MAWL that many issues can be avoided in the first place by not denying them their true nature.
Do you honestly believe that your dogs wouldn't have been neurotic if always leashed,no sniffing,no running,no freedom whatsoever?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

IMHO, exercise is very important for any dog. It is a stress reliever, helps to eliminate a lot of frustration which leads to negative behaviors and lets a dog be a dog. Most of my obedience training incorporates exercise and the dogs are usually pretty gassed after about 10 minutes. Dogs need to be able able to vent excess physical and mental energy. 

Long walks on a leash are good and beneficial. I think a dog also needs to be able to run and have fun as well. All dogs need both mental and physical stimulation. Exercise and training are key components to this. 

Most poorly behaved dogs have little outlet, are frustrated and bored. A little training and some exercise goes a long way to alleviate this and a lot of problems are solved.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> IMHO, exercise is very important for any dog. It is a stress reliever, helps to eliminate a lot of frustration which leads to negative behaviors and lets a dog be a dog. Most of my obedience training incorporates exercise and the dogs are usually pretty gassed after about 10 minutes. Dogs need to be able able to vent excess physical and mental energy.
> 
> Long walks on a leash are good and beneficial. I think a dog also needs to be able to run and have fun as well. All dogs need both mental and physical stimulation. Exercise and training are key components to this.
> 
> Most poorly behaved dogs have little outlet, are frustrated and bored. A little training and some exercise goes a long way to alleviate this and a lot of problems are solved.


Stress relief. I think that's what gets lost in print Jim. Sometimes folks will only think of the physical part when you mention exercise. I never wear my dog out. 5 miles this morning with play and ob, swimming, and hiking. He's content and relaxed, but he isn't tired.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Steve, 

After every shift at work, I let my dog run, free and relax. It is a pain in the a$$ at 0 dark thirty some mornings when I am just finishing up, but the dog needs the outlet and stress relief. IMHO, it is a requirement to keeping my dog healthy. For a working dog it is really important. But, it is important for all dogs. 

Your dogs have some super stamina. It's like 98 degrees here and the heat sure takes a toll on endurance.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

They do, but I'm sitting here on a laptop for a reason Jim, Lol.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> Stress relief. I think that's what gets lost in print Jim. Sometimes folks will only think of the physical part when you mention exercise. I never wear my dog out. 5 miles this morning with play and ob, swimming, and hiking. He's content and relaxed, but he isn't tired.


That's it exactly.They really require some time to relax and unwind just as we do.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> There is "nothing" to be confused about?? Lots of exercise does not work.
> 
> I don't know why the difference but on "BoxerForum" as a whole, Boxer owners seem to do the "exercise" thing as a matter of course. They will find places and let there dogs "loose" the dogs fly and jump and spin and always look they are going to crash into hill because they don't seem to care where they are going as long as they get there fast and first!
> 
> ...


I don't know Chip. I didn't get that you were actually saying exercise is not important for the health of your dog, or you think it's ok to never let your dog out of the house unless it's on a 6 foot leash.

Only that dogs with plenty of exercise running free can still have the same problems as dogs that do not run free on a regular basis. There's a difference there.

I do know that my dog has a hard time settling and concentrating for a training session if she has not had her play/exercise time outside first. There's just something built up in her that has to be released. She runs like the wind. I am so thankful that I have a large yard that is safe for her to flat out run and play to release all that energy. 

Same with when she really needs to chew. She doesn't really settle even after exercise. She'll be a little PITA, a little backtalk (she's very vocal). I get her a good knuckle bone to spend an hour with over a couple of days and she settles and remains settled for a week or more. She's had free run of the house since she was 19 weeks old and has never chewed any furniture. She'll mind me but if these needs aren't met - it just makes it more difficult. That's why I really hate the winters now. We get cooped up,:frown2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Only that dogs with plenty of exercise running free can still have the same problems as dogs that do not run free on a regular basis.


LOL ...Thank You! That is what I was trying to say! But ... I kinda stomped on my own message!

Adequate exercise is "important" it's just something I've always done, nothing to think about. People that go all exercise and people that don't do any exercise report the exact same "issues" hence for me ... that's not it??

I was merely trying to reason through the "leash only and back yard dogs??" And I thought a common factor maybe a lack of recall issue?? No one ask "does your dog have recall???" 

By and large an "understanding" of what JQP thinks is not furthered by people who know how to train a dog arguing among themselves?? 

I've seen evidence that suggest to "me" that "exercise" is wash?? Some do some don't ... they both have the same issues??

I was trying to "think that thur???" But ... yeah ... that process got halted because "I" didn't think lack of exercise was important enough??

OK ... fine then ... ym postion "KISS" ... "I" don't care! Yeah ... not the way to further a discussion ... but "apparently" it happened anyway ... soooo ... I did good???


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> @Chip18 I have to ask....do you really believe a working dog can be content,bidable,mentally and physically healthy while spending it's life restricted by a six foot leash?Exercise has no importance?Zero?
> I agree with MAWL that many issues can be avoided in the first place by not denying them their true nature.
> Do you honestly believe that your dogs wouldn't have been neurotic if always leashed,no sniffing,no running,no freedom whatsoever?


Nope ... but in the "Real World" in some states dogs in public are "required by law" to be on leash "Boxer owner." 

So what does she do instead to exercise her dog ... "I don't know."


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I can imagine the estimated 534,000 dogs in NYC don't all get to run off leash every day. Wonder if they're as crazy as the residents?:grin2:


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Nope ... but in the "Real World" in some states dogs in public are "required by law" to be on leash "Boxer owner."
> 
> So what does she do instead to exercise her dog ... "I don't know."


You find a fenced area.They're all around if you just look.Sports fields,school yards,parks,fairgrounds,etc.

Yes,dogs with plenty of exercise can have behavior problems too.My point was an under exercised,frustrated dog will certainly have issues.Eliminate the frustration,let them unwind,and issues disappear or at the very least are easier to fix.First you determine if the dog is well fed,healthy,physically fit.If the dog's basic needs are being met then you can advise JQP in skills needed to keep fido from "acting like a fool" to borrow your phrase


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I believe central park has off leash hours


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> You find a fenced area.They're all around if you just look.Sports fields,school yards,parks,fairgrounds,etc.
> 
> Yes,dogs with plenty of exercise can have behavior problems too.My point was an under exercised,frustrated dog will certainly have issues.Eliminate the frustration,let them unwind,and issues disappear or at the very least are easier to fix.First you determine if the dog is well fed,healthy,physically fit.If the dog's basic needs are being met then you can advise JQP in skills needed to keep fido from "acting like a fool" to borrow your phrase


LOL ... I'm not in disagreement with the pro exercise crowd??

If someone thinks it's of that much importance?? Then AFAIK, they are free to start a thread on* "The Importance of Exercise For Dogs." 
* I doubt they will get flack from me ... hmm ... they certainly won't now in any case. 

I already had help in "translating" what I was "trying to say" and thank you SV for that. 

But pounding "anyone" into thinking a given factor is as important as they think it is?? Hmm let me know how that goes???

And for the record, yep when I lived in the city, I did as you suggested and thought nothing of it. And Business Parks on weekend is also a good option ... assuming the dog has recall??


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Tons of small breed dogs in nyc but I'm sure there are owners with big dogs that take advantage what surrounds them on the weekends not far from beaches and many hiking trails that surround the city. Central Park does have off leash hours in certain area of the park very early in the morning I believe.We have leash laws in our state as most states do but we visit beaches after hours when not crowded, state parks, hiking trails etc. school fields etc. on quiet days - or use very long lead I have a 6, 15, and 30 foot lead. On quiet days sticking close to home I do some light training combined with games of fetch in the backyard and or a run in the dirt/sand in the sump in the woods across the street with Max which is short intervals in this heat and walks.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Jenny720 said:


> Tons of small breed dogs in nyc but I'm sure there are owners with big dogs that take advantage what surrounds them on the weekends not far from beaches and many hiking trails that surround the city. Central Park does have off leash hours in certain area of the park very early in the morning I believe.We have leash laws in our state as most states do but we visit beaches after hours when not crowded, state parks, hiking trails etc. school fields etc. on quiet days - or use very long lead I have a 6, 15, and 30 foot lead. On quiet days sticking close to home I do some light training combined with games of fetch in the backyard and or a run in the dirt/sand in the sump in the woods across the street with Max which is short intervals in this heat and walks.


Jenny, I hope you know I was being facetious. I get along very well with New Yorkers. I married one!:grin2:


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Tons of small breed dogs in nyc but I'm sure there are owners with big dogs that take advantage what surrounds them on the weekends not far from beaches and many hiking trails that surround the city. Central Park does have off leash hours in certain area of the park very early in the morning I believe.We have leash laws in our state as most states do but we visit beaches after hours when not crowded, state parks, hiking trails etc. school fields etc. on quiet days - or use very long lead I have a 6, 15, and 30 foot lead. On quiet days sticking close to home I do some light training combined with games of fetch in the backyard and or a run in the dirt/sand in the sump in the woods across the street with Max which is short intervals in this heat and walks.
> ...


Lol stone! You made me giggle!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> LOL ... I'm not in disagreement with the pro exercise crowd??
> 
> If someone thinks it's of that much importance?? Then AFAIK, they are free to start a thread on* "The Importance of Exercise For Dogs."
> * I doubt they will get flack from me ... hmm ... they certainly won't now in any case.
> ...


Sorry if I was coming on too strong Chip.Can ya tell I feel very strongly about the subject? I am trying to convince you to include the importance of adequate exercise in your videos,links,and recommendations.Instead of saying it doesn't matter And now I'll shut up and leave you be.(For now!)


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

dogma13 said:


> Sorry if I was coming on too strong Chip.Can ya tell I feel very strongly about the subject? I am trying to convince you to include the importance of adequate exercise in your videos,links,and recommendations.Instead of saying it doesn't matter And now I'll shut up and leave you be.(For now!)


I don't think you came on too strong at all. Exercise and outlets for drive are a critical part of the whole picture for mental and physical well being that are all too frequently overlooked in advice given and dismissed by others that don't know its value. There are people who come here for help. They should be given this information, especially when that information may be pertinent to the dog and problems addressed in *THIS* thread.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Here's to you Chip.:smile2: Hope you like it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know I have wimpy show line dogs, but I have a lot of them and I do not let all of them run for long periods, nor do I walk them all for miles every day. 

I do not crate my dogs. They are kenneled next to or with other dogs, and can freely move around, run back and forth, etc. But dogs do not necessarily exercise themselves when they are in a box. They are not like hamsters or rats that you can put a wheel in their cage and they will run on it and keep themselves healthy, if that works. They will often go to their comfy spot and have a series of naps while you are not there. And if they are completely alone, they will whine and cry, howl, dig, chew, and if there is nothing to chew upon and no way to dig, they will chew on themselves. A lonely, bored, untrained, and under-exercised German Shepherd Dog is a sad item indeed.

On the other hand, untrained dogs being left off-lead pretty much anywhere is a disaster waiting to happen, unless you have land. And hopefully you can securely fence a goodly portion of it, so that your dog can run about freely while you are out there engaging with them. 

But does that mean that people who work or people who live in a city  should not have a dog? It does not. It means you may have to be more creative to get your dog what he needs. 

Different dogs have different needs, even dogs of the same breed. Walking at a human pace 3 miles every morning is going to be boring for the dog and boring for the human and it is probably not going to do the trick. Ok, well that would have been fine for Babsy. She would plod along with me all day long happily from puppy on up. Jenna however, was another story. When I took them together, Babs was ready to go back and wait by the car, and Jenna would be ready for me to break out my bicycle. So I did walk them separately. I did train them to run along side my bike with or without a lead -- the lead makes it more dangerous actually. But half the year hear (or almost) we have something called snow and something else called ice, and after doing quite the number on my knee rather than slide in front of a car, I stopped biking in the winter time. 

I would walk the girls individually. Babsy would be happy to walk along side and toward the end of our walk, I would clip off her lead and say GO TO MY CAR, and she would dash to where my car was (my neighborhood is unsafe to walk in, so I drive into town to walk the dog. 

Jenna, though, was a different story. A simple walk would wear me out much faster than her. So, I incorporated training and tricks into the walk. We would do all the Rally moves, and some agility moves. There is a small brick wall, like the dog walk, and I would say, Hupp! and up she would go and walk along it. We climbed on the stuff at the play ground. And, (I walk mostly at night), I trained Jenna to go up all the steps like at the court house and businesses that you have to go up steps to get to, and she would touch the door and then I would call her and she would run back down. My walk was "as the crow flies" and hers was "as the wolf runs." 

I also took them to the fairgrounds which is fenced. And if the horses are not out, I could let them walk along the fairgrounds off-lead, running around, but within call. 

We don't need to give up our dog, or make them unsafe by giving them freedom they are not ready for. We just have to be creative.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm not sure what's going on here. The man has already explained he takes normal exercise as a given. He's explained multiple times why he didn't want to bring it into the equation. 

Unless each "helpful" post is preceded by a whole health questionnaire, why the sudden focus? I guess from now on before any of us posts helpful information, we must have the following information; they all pertain to health and wellbeing as a basis.

How much do you feed your dog, what brand do you feed your dog?

What is your dog's height and weight?

What about the dogs that are crated 9 hours a day because it's now acceptable - they don't all get the exercise they need. Don't kid yourself.

What is your dog's lineage - that's important because if there's an inherited temperament problem - Woah!

How much do you correct your dog? Reward? Which method do you you use? Are you familiar with the 4 quadrants of training? If you're not "you're not balanced"!

and on and on and on...... 

who condemns first?... - here's your mirror.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> I'm not sure what's going on here. The man has already explained he takes normal exercise as a given. He's explained multiple times why he didn't want to bring it into the equation.
> 
> Unless each "helpful" post is preceded by a whole health questionnaire, why the sudden focus? I guess from now on before any of us posts helpful information, we must have the following information; they all pertain to health and wellbeing as a basis.
> 
> ...


Maybe I read quickly and missed some information. People are always saying that walking isn't enough exercise and it almost sounded like people were suggesting taking the dog off lead to get him the exercise he seems to need. 

I was making suggestions for making an ordinary walk more exercise for the dog than for the person, while still being safe. 

Not everyone signs up to become a jogger or runner when they get a GSD. And especially dogs that are having issues, should not be put into situations that can get ugly really quickly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> Sorry if I was coming on too strong Chip.Can ya tell I feel very strongly about the subject? I am trying to convince you to include the importance of adequate exercise in your videos,links,and recommendations.Instead of saying it doesn't matter And now I'll shut up and leave you be.(For now!)


Sigh ... hmmm ... OK ... "this" was an expected tactic??

So ... for some reason ... it seems that it is "important" that "I" acknowledge exercise is important??? 

But if I agree ... then ... I will have disproved my prior statement :
*But pounding "anyone" into thinking a given factor is as important as they think it is?? Hmm let me know how that goes??? *So ...now ... I have backed myself into a corner???  

Fine then:









I was good with being pig headed and stubborn. I was "expecting" sources cited and reasoned arguments. To which I would have continued to reply "I" don't care."  

I wasn't expecting to be confronted by ... "this approach??" If it's that important that "I" acknowledge the importance of exercise. So be it *"Proper Exercise is Important in the Development of a well trained dog."
*
But someone else needs to start a thread and I'll use it and it needs to include options for city folks. 

Well done "Madam" ... I would award a "Houndie" but you know, I seem to have violated the "MEME" Clause already so .... yeah.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I do not crate my dogs. They are kenneled next to or with other dogs, and can freely move around, run back and forth, etc. But dogs do not necessarily exercise themselves when they are in a box. They are not like hamsters or rats that you can put a wheel in their cage and they will run on it and keep themselves healthy, if that works. They will often go to their comfy spot and have a series of naps while you are not there. And if they are completely alone, they will whine and cry, howl, dig, chew, and if there is nothing to chew upon and no way to dig, they will chew on themselves. A lonely, bored, untrained, and under-exercised German Shepherd Dog is a sad item indeed.


Exactly, an under exercised dog is a sad item indeed and can be found at the root of many problems. How much exercise a dog does get can be critical to the equation of many problem dogs. How can one take a dog that is anxious and behaving badly from a lack of exercise and the ensuing stress and recommend teaching calming exercises which involve further movement restriction? As Dogma posted earlier, in many of these under exercised dog cases, exercise the dog and the rest will fall into place. 

Insofar as what others have posted, I have not read anywhere where the OP stated how much exercise his dog gets or that he does not want to discuss it. I guess I missed those parts. I did see where he posted he has a very small backyard and leash walks his dog and is having problem with his dog with excitement and frustration leading to reactivity. OP came to a public forum looking for help. They have been given good advice. It is up to them to pick and choose what advice, if any, that they choose to utilize, but they don't get to pick and choose what advice is given to them.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Here's to you Chip.:smile2: Hope you like it.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSuB4t3q_dA


LOL outstanding! But I had conceded the "point" before I saw it. Thanks anyway, made me smile, for the record folks .. I wasn't angry ... just pig headed.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I know I have wimpy show line dogs, but I have a lot of them and I do not let all of them run for long periods, nor do I walk them all for miles every day.
> 
> I do not crate my dogs. They are kenneled next to or with other dogs, and can freely move around, run back and forth, etc. But dogs do not necessarily exercise themselves when they are in a box. They are not like hamsters or rats that you can put a wheel in their cage and they will run on it and keep themselves healthy, if that works. They will often go to their comfy spot and have a series of naps while you are not there. And if they are completely alone, they will whine and cry, howl, dig, chew, and if there is nothing to chew upon and no way to dig, they will chew on themselves. A lonely, bored, untrained, and under-exercised German Shepherd Dog is a sad item indeed.
> 
> ...


LOL ... as usual always the voice of reason.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I have noticed that recently you have become one of the top 3 "training advisors" here. I want to commend you that you relate that you are still in training yourself. That is a rare bit of fact here.
> 
> It makes me wonder sometimes, why some posters, in the two years that I have been here anyway... have never asked ONE question. I've always thought of a site like this as an evolving thing with all levels of expertise but there is a consistency and I wonder about it.
> 
> ...


Maybe they talk to trainers offline for all of their training needs? Not to take anything away from the forum, but if one has a relationship with a trainer who knows them/their dog, it makes sense to take advantage of that.

And then they share it here when someone else has a question, which also makes sense if they have something to offer. Not asking questions here doesn't mean they aren't asking them of someone.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> but they don't get to pick and choose what advice is given to them.


Now, that's a good one! :grin2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Now, that's a good one! :grin2:


I also should add that when somebody comes to a forum seeking advice, neither should they dictate the format or manner in which that advice is given. They only hurt themselves when good posters don't give advice because of the mandated restrictions.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Maybe they talk to trainers offline for all of their training needs? Not to take anything away from the forum, but if one has a relationship with a trainer who knows them/their dog, it makes sense to take advantage of that.
> 
> And then they share it here when someone else has a question, which also makes sense if they have something to offer. Not asking questions here doesn't mean they aren't asking them of someone.


That may be, but if it is - that trainer should be given credit should they not? That would be beneficial. Why not share and give credit if it's not a personal experience? You can say "years of experience" and "can't remember which trainer recommended it" but surely, there's a few you could pass along? Chances are, they have something online, if they're active to promote and validate their method.

But in the end, it's all a mix of methods out there and available, so who has the gumption to argue- unless they're a current active trainer with a diversity of situational achievements recently under their belt?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

WateryTart said:


> Maybe they talk to trainers offline for all of their training needs? Not to take anything away from the forum, but if one has a relationship with a trainer who knows them/their dog, it makes sense to take advantage of that.
> 
> And then they share it here when someone else has a question, which also makes sense if they have something to offer. Not asking questions here doesn't mean they aren't asking them of someone.


I'm lost. Since when does forum membership require asking questions? How did we get from the OP's question about barking to a criticism of members for not asking questions? I like reading when experienced dog owners and trainers offering opinions and advice. I don't care if they ask questions. I've asked a few, but most of the questions about behavior come from new dogs owners or people new to German Shepherds.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I'm not sure what's going on here. The man has already explained he takes normal exercise as a given. He's explained multiple times why he didn't want to bring it into the equation.
> 
> Unless each "helpful" post is preceded by a whole health questionnaire, why the sudden focus? I guess from now on before any of us posts helpful information, we must have the following information; they all pertain to health and wellbeing as a basis.
> 
> ...


Actually this is kinda where I was coming from. I say "KISS" all the time, it's all based on simple principles that anyone can apply, (course my SLL, thread has produced mixed results. ) ... but KISS, "apparently" takes a lot of words to explain.

My plate is full enough, if others feel an issue is important then they can address it. I merely stated "my" observations and "my" conclusions and people had a cow???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WateryTart said:


> Maybe they talk to trainers offline for all of their training needs? Not to take anything away from the forum, but if one has a relationship with a trainer who knows them/their dog, it makes sense to take advantage of that.
> 
> And then they share it here when someone else has a question, which also makes sense if they have something to offer. Not asking questions here doesn't mean they aren't asking them of someone.


Outstanding post. Hits the nail on the head.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> That may be, but if it is - that trainer should be given credit should they not? That would be beneficial. Why not share and give credit if it's not a personal experience? You can say "years of experience" and "can't remember which trainer recommended it" but surely, there's a few you could pass along? Chances are, they have something online, if they're active to promote and validate their method.
> 
> But in the end, it's all a mix of methods out there and available, so who has the gumption to argue- unless they're a current active trainer with a diversity of situational achievements recently under their belt?


I would never use my trainer's name online with free advice coming second hand from me. That would be a violation of trust and would undercut his business. If I use something by someone with videos or a web page, I would post the link. I do that often enough. Not every trainer wants a bunch of people on a message board talking about them. The information I share is my personal opinion based on working with many trainers, reading books, and working with my dogs. Once you start using something often enough, it becomes your own. This thread is now full of hypotheticals that aren't even close to what the OP asked. Someone who is gone and said he wasn't coming back.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I think that sometimes we need to remember back when we were all raising our 1st GSD puppy. Also, that people from all different walks of life and financial positions come here for help.

I understand that THE BEST referrals should be given, but as I've said before that's not possible for some due to financial considerations.

Some would say, if you can't hack it, you never should have gotten a GSD. That's like saying if you suddenly decide you aren't going to be the perfect mom or dad - give the baby away. Emotions are involved. Anger, denial and resentment lash out... it's human.

Because emotions are involved... it takes supreme patience and trial of different communication methods to get thru and certainly, if it's clear that all that will be considered are free online videos they should at least not condemned. Don't get insulted, don't condemn and don't quit with the classic "You've been given good advise here by many experienced people and you choose to ignore"..... bla bla... How is that anything but a "sign off" and "here's the door"?

If an online video is the best you can get an owner to do - why not recommend one you find helpful? I'm not trying to say what's best or who should or not say what, but my gosh - I hate it when that classic "you've been given... sentence comes up and I know that pup will not have a good outcome.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I also should add that when somebody comes to a forum seeking advice, neither should they dictate the format or manner in which that advice is given. They only hurt themselves when good posters don't give advice because of the mandated restrictions.


Hmmm ...

... what about "super secret rules" that some members violate constantly?? The "MEME" Clause:
Super secret, rule 20 ..*"The MEME Clause??" Subsection 15, article 12, paragraph 5, to wit "members on this board are not allowed to have "fun" or do the same for others, especially if they are engaging in online "Bickering or One Upmanship (that's an assumption on my part??) if members want to have fun or cause others to do so ... get a Boxer!!
* 

I consider it a "mandated restriction" myself, wasn't there when I joined??


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I would never use my trainer's name online with free advice coming second hand from me. That would be a violation of trust and would undercut his business. If I use something by someone with videos or a web page, I would post the link. I do that often enough. Not every trainer wants a bunch of people on a message board talking about them. The information I share is my personal opinion based on working with many trainers, reading books, and working with my dogs. Once you start using something often enough, it becomes your own. This thread is now full of hypotheticals that aren't even close to what the OP asked. Someone who is gone and said he wasn't coming back.


We talk about what our doctors say, our teachers and our parents and we do it freely. I don't see the need for secrecy, nor that it will deprive or undercut their practice.:smile2:


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hmmm ...
> 
> ... what about "super secret rules" that some members violate constantly?? The "MEME" Clause:
> Super secret, rule 20 ..*"The MEME Clause??" Subsection 15, article 12, paragraph 5, to wit "members on this board are not allowed to have "fun" or do the same for others, especially if they are engaging in online "Bickering or One Upmanship (that's an assumption on my part??) if members want to have fun or cause others to do so ... get a Boxer!!
> ...


The way I hear it told, I have a doctorate in bickering. Are you sure you want to go there with me? :grin2:


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The way I hear it told, I have a doctorate in bickering. Are you sure you want to go there with me? :grin2:


LOL ... not with my hands tied behind my back.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> I think that sometimes we need to remember back when we were all raising our 1st GSD puppy. Also, that people from all different walks of life and financial positions come here for help.
> 
> I understand that THE BEST referrals should be given, but as I've said before that's not possible for some due to financial considerations.
> 
> ...


You are talking about me. Would you rather not see me give advice? It takes a lot of time. I don't have to.

I'm an experienced dog owner and I followed some advice here about videos trying something new with my dog. It was a disaster. I didn't come back and complain. I don't tell the people who tried to help me that they really screwed up my training. I took full responsibility. The reason I'm working with a private trainer is that I made a few mistakes and I needed to get on them right away and clean them up. 

We should agree that not everything can be learned or taught from a video. When I got my first GSD, I didn't think about trainers. I found an obedience class taught by someone competent and learned how to train my dog and the breed. I lucked out. The trainer had German Shepherd experience. She told me two things. Get the dog into a prong collar and give it plenty of exercise. It was the best advice anyone ever gave me for that dog. I would never have learned that from a video. I needed to have someone watch me work and correct me.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> We talk about what our doctors say, our teachers and our parents and we do it freely. I don't see the need for secrecy, nor that it will deprive or undercut their practice.:smile2:


You are entitled to your opinion but I'm still not going to do that because I think it crosses a line I'm not willing to cross. Now, if the trainer said, sure, post whatever you want and use my name, I might. But my trainer isn't an egotist and doesn't need that kind of attention.

I don't talk about a doctor or teacher by name online, either. This isn't Facebook


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I would never use my trainer's name online with free advice coming second hand from me. That would be a violation of trust and would undercut his business. If I use something by someone with videos or a web page, I would post the link. I do that often enough. Not every trainer wants a bunch of people on a message board talking about them. The information I share is my personal opinion based on working with many trainers, reading books, and working with my dogs. Once you start using something often enough, it becomes your own. This thread is now full of hypotheticals that aren't even close to what the OP asked. Someone who is gone and said he wasn't coming back.


I have seen where real professionals, credentialed, highly respected people who train dogs for a living, have come on here and held an OP's hand through pages and pages of detailed instructions and advice only to be told thanks but no thanks, I got it under control.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

OK Chip - here comes your turn (since I've apparently turned monkey and am flinging poo freely)

IMO, group or personal training (better yet) will always be better than free online video's. ALWAYS, ALWAYS! I have seen several of your posts and your general consensus that if I can do it, anyone can do it.

That's just not so and it concerns me that you are right on top of every problem pup post with all your links because "free" and "if I can do it, you can too!" will always trump referrals to a trainer.

That's wrong. You've been told why by current active trainers many times, still you persist and imply they aren't needed. Not good...:frown2:


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Lol!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen where real professionals, credentialed, highly respected people who train dogs for a living, have come on here and held an OP's hand through pages and pages of detailed instructions and advice only to be told thanks but no thanks, I got it under control.


I've seen worse written to trainers. You are being polite. It's uncalled for and kind of stupid for someone who ask for advice to argue with someone trying to help them. 

I get it. Someone new comes in and wants to know how to stop a behavior and thinks they are getting information on how to turn a bad behavior into a good one. Then they hear something like, this takes time, enroll in obedience or your dog needs [exercise] and they think the person doesn't understand their problem. Because it's "not obedience or exercise" they are asking about but THE problem.

I'm shaking my head at the arguments here against exercise. I just saw a medical show where they were saying a majority of health problems people have are caused by a lack of exercise. I get a lot. When my dogs run around, I run around with them. I got a mile tracker and I want to know how much they are getting, so I have to move with them. I know whenever I get a puppy that I'm going to lose weight and feel more fit because that first year means a lot of movement. Then we get into obedience and we walk several miles in each class. I know, I track it. I just wonder if the "new" health problems we see in young or middle aged dogs are from lack of exercise, too. That and toxins in their environments or too much processed food.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oh, there are plenty of things we should all remember.

We should remember what a mess we made out of our first challenging GSD. 

We should remember that people come from all walks of life, and cultures, and financial situations, but, of course, we write what we know, and it doesn't make sense for me to try to change my post with respect to the poster cultural or religious background. I have enough trouble trying to figure out my own. I should not deny someone the benefit of my experience because the person might take offense do to some background information he _might _have. It is up to the OP to take advice, consider it, and choose whether or not to apply it to themselves or their dog. And yes, people might be miffed if you ask for advice but then don't take it. But that is generally a problem of the advice giver. 

We should remember that when we give advice, it is indeed a gift. It feels wonderful when you seen Mom wearing the garment that you gave her as a gift. But that is really like a win-win. If we take it personally that someone doesn't use a give that we give, it stops being a gift. It becomes some type of obligation. I don't want my sister to put the t-shirts I bought her kids on them because I gave them to them, but because the kids like them, because they fit, because they are appropriate to what we are doing. Advice is a gift. We need to give it, and then step back, and not be angry when it is not acted on. We can feel a little invested in its application, because if it does work, it gives us a boost, but we have to be healthy about it. 

And, my personal favorite, we have to remember that we have seen this question 872 times. And we have responded to all those people, sometimes with posts that nearly reach the word limit. But, _this poster_ has not asked this question before. For this poster, the question applies to his dog, and he doesn't know the other 872 people or their dogs. And he might not have been around when they were given advice. We get tired of hearing about defiant, dominant, aggressive puppies driving their owners to message boards for answers. But then, we have a problem, and we should step back, and try to remember that this person is not one of the 872.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Selzer, you are right and I will try to remember that.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I have seen where real professionals, credentialed, highly respected people who train dogs for a living, have come on here and held an OP's hand through pages and pages of detailed instructions and advice only to be told thanks but no thanks, I got it under control.


And so, if we were to comment that we welcome this trainer and let the op know we respect them and their information is rock solid, wouldn't that be better? to step aside from anything but supportive comments (for the trainer posting) and share personal experiences that support the trainers comments? It doesn't go that way.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I've seen worse written to trainers. You are being polite. It's uncalled for and kind of stupid for someone who ask for advice to argue with someone trying to help them.
> 
> I get it. Someone new comes in and wants to know how to stop a behavior and thinks they are getting information on how to turn a bad behavior into a good one. Then they hear something like, this takes time, enroll in obedience or your dog needs [exercise] and they think the person doesn't understand their problem. Because it's "not obedience or exercise" they are asking about but THE problem.
> 
> I'm shaking my head at the arguments here against exercise. I just saw a medical show where they were saying a majority of health problems people have are caused by a lack of exercise. I get a lot. When my dogs run around, I run around with them. I got a mile tracker and I want to know how much they are getting, so I have to move with them. I know whenever I get a puppy that I'm going to lose weight and feel more fit because that first year means a lot of movement. Then we get into obedience and we walk several miles in each class. I know, I track it. I just wonder if the "new" health problems we see in young or middle aged dogs are from lack of exercise, too. That and toxins in their environments or too much processed food.


I agree. They just talked about a study on the news a couple of days ago that said a person needs to get 60-90 minutes of vigorous exercise for every eight hours spent on a sit down job to combat all the detrimental effects of the inactivity. That speaks volumes to me.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> Oh, there are plenty of things we should all remember.
> 
> We should remember what a mess we made out of our first challenging GSD.
> 
> ...


It's not #873's fault that you're burnt out. As far as communication methods... do you talk to kids the same as adults? Or the mentally handicapped the same as your banker? Of course not! You drop into communication that works - they're really not all to get you here.... many times- dealing with angry, fearful people who's nerves are on edge - this isn't Disneyland.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stonevintage said:


> And so, if we were to comment that we welcome this trainer and let the op know we respect them and their information is rock solid, wouldn't that be better? to step aside from anything but supportive comments (for the trainer posting) and share personal experiences that support the trainers comments? It doesn't go that way.


That's a good idea. I just posted today (or yesterday?) that the OP should listen to_______ who is giving good advice. And I stopped talking because the other advice was much better than anything I could offer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> And so, if we were to comment that we welcome this trainer and let the op know we respect them and their information is rock solid, wouldn't that be better? to step aside from anything but supportive comments (for the trainer posting) and share personal experiences that support the trainers comments? It doesn't go that way.


Define a trainer. 

I have seen a post recently talking about three top trainers posting on here lately. I don't read all the threads. I have not seen one, let alone three, credentialed trainers posting with regularity lately.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I paid for a class, and was given instruction to try something with my dog, then I don't have any problem with saying, 

"well, when I was having that problem, my trainer suggested doing this _______. And after so many tries, the result was _____. 





LuvShepherds said:


> I would never use my trainer's name online with free advice coming second hand from me. That would be a violation of trust and would undercut his business. If I use something by someone with videos or a web page, I would post the link. I do that often enough. Not every trainer wants a bunch of people on a message board talking about them. The information I share is my personal opinion based on working with many trainers, reading books, and working with my dogs. Once you start using something often enough, it becomes your own. This thread is now full of hypotheticals that aren't even close to what the OP asked. Someone who is gone and said he wasn't coming back.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I agree. They just talked about a study on the news a couple of days ago that said a person needs to get 60-90 minutes of vigorous exercise for every eight hours spent on a sit down job to combat all the detrimental effects of the inactivity. That speaks volumes to me.


Yes! That's what they were taking about. And if you sit for only 4 hours, you can get away with 30 minutes a day. I would much rather sit in front of the do other or the TV in my free time, but my dogs don't watch TV and they can't type, so it's only fair to them that we all get up and move. Unless someone has a physical disability where they can't exercise, they should.

I met a woman who is blind and has a guide dog. She tries to walk at least ten miles a day! When she got the dog, she requested one that could handle that much exercise and ended up with a big lab.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... back on pointe "Anyway." I did ask one simple basic question "are you going to change your expectations with this dog?? He "acknowledged" that the puppy was submissive and chose to put her out there for other dogs to "toughen her up." That approach would have to change. AFAIK ... there was never an answer?? But I asked "because" if he was willing to change his approach, then he could DIY his dog. Take the "friendly" with other dogs thing "off the table" and change it to "ignore" and it makes life simpler! 

But if he insists on doing the same old "random other dogs on the street hook up thing??" Well he's going to need a pack of "balanced dogs" for that approach and that is not a DIY deal. If he "insists" on "Dog Friendly" as opposed to "Dog Ignoring" then "Find a Trainer" would be his best options. And most likely the only ones that would help do that, are going to be quacks?? 

The trainers I tend to follow, would tell him no, to unknown dogs period. But hey I don't know maybe he will fly his dog out to CM's Dog Psychology Center?? CM seems to luv rehabbing dogs and then sending the newly rehabbed dog off to the "Dog Park." I've always wondered if Cesar does return visits at no cost ... just in case someone brings in Rufus, who did not get the "Balanced Dogs Only" memo and there are "issues" when he goes after the rehab??


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> If I paid for a class, and was given instruction to try something with my dog, then I don't have any problem with saying,
> 
> "well, when I was having that problem, my trainer suggested doing this _______. And after so many tries, the result was _____.


I don't either. But she was saying we have to give the trainer's name and credentials to share? Or did I misread it?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Chip, I have run into too many unbalanced dogs to take chances. I agree with your post.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Chip! You're against exercise! Isn't it amazing how when the ol' ball gets rolling you end up wondering how they ever could have come to that conclusion? lol, been there!:grin2: Play the video again, tomorrow's August 1st! Celebrate! It's all good.!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> You are talking about me.


Just for the record awhile ago the name Sam came up (don't remember the circumstances??) and I said "hey you outed me." And the reply was "no... it was someone else, you outed yourself." 

But don't sweat it, we all learn things differently.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... back on pointe "Anyway." I did ask one simple basic question "are you going to change your expectations with this dog?? He "acknowledged" that the puppy was submissive and chose to put her out there for other dogs to "toughen her up." That approach would have to change. AFAIK ... there was never an answer?? But I asked "because" if he was willing to change his approach, then he could DIY his dog. Take the "friendly" with other dogs thing "off the table" and change it to "ignore" and it makes life simpler!
> 
> But if he insists on doing the same old "random other dogs on the street hook up thing??" Well he's going to need a pack of "balanced dogs" for that approach and that is not a DIY deal. If he "insists" on "Dog Friendly" as opposed to "Dog Ignoring" then "Find a Trainer" would be his best options. And most likely the only ones that would help do that, are going to be quacks??
> 
> The trainers I tend to follow, would tell him no, to unknown dogs period. But hey I don't know maybe he will fly his dog out to CM's Dog Psychology Center?? CM seems to luv rehabbing dogs and then sending the newly rehabbed dog off to the "Dog Park." I've always wondered if Cesar does return visits at no cost ... just in case someone brings in Rufus, who did not get the "Balanced Dogs Only" memo and there are "issues" when he goes after the rehab??


OP has a family, not sure how many kids or what ages. How would you propose to handle if the kids were going to ride bikes with other kids in the neighborhood and his kids brought their dog, and little Johnny's dog tagged along, and so did little Suzy's and Sammy's dogs?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> I don't either. But she was saying we have to give the trainer's name and credentials to share? Or did I misread it?


You don't have to give the trainer's name. The only reason this is helpful anyway is that there is great leeway for anyone that is not really receiving professional training or a pro trainer themselves to pass themselves as more knowledgeable than they are. Outside of that, it's just sharing personal experience. You see people consistently challenging or contradicting real pro training advice because they can and no one is the wiser. They are not what they appear to be... but they talk a good talk and are more interested in debate than helping.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Define a trainer.
> 
> I have seen a post recently talking about three top trainers posting on here lately. I don't read all the threads. I have not seen one, let alone three, credentialed trainers posting with regularity lately.


You know exactly the three I'm talking about and you know the exact reason why they don't post here anymore. lol One helped me in a big way to understand my dog, the other was LE and there were lines I would not cross, the 3rd was banned.

As you will, added "TOP trainers" where that was never said.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Stonevintage said:


> You know exactly the three I'm talking about and you know the exact reason why they don't post here anymore.


I am sorry but you have mistaken me for somebody that knows what you are talking about.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> OK Chip - here comes your turn (since I've apparently turned monkey and am flinging poo freely)
> 
> IMO, group or personal training (better yet) will always be better than free online video's. ALWAYS, ALWAYS! I have seen several of your posts and your general consensus that if I can do it, anyone can do it.
> 
> ...


Oh ... when the "Pro's" speak I take notice to wit a very long time ago "David said there were some issues he had with "leerburghs" Who Pets ..." but at the time he did not specify what they were?? 

Then is another post "Lou" mentioned it and said what the problems were and I went back and read it and I saw them also! So going forward I made a note when I mentioned it.

I had stopped reading after "The Who Pets" that was all I needed to know. Since then the article has been edited. 

The trainers I follow are on the air daily and weekly Q&A sessions same questions that get asked here and by and large ... they give pretty much the "exact same answers I do." Except yeah they don't say if I can do it ...you can to. 

I figured since I am not a "Pro" I was entitled to say that?? But yeah ... I suppose it could get "annoying" so yeah my bad. 

And no not everyone can "DIY" there dog but some people can, they just need to know where to look to see how ... the 5% ers, and yes I pulled that number out of thin air. 

And as for what the "Pro's" say and whether I take notice of them and other experienced members??? 

Judge for yourself:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8033265-post243.html

The "Puppy thing" Generally I take a pass, I only get involved in certain circumstances, like here with a puppy getting punked on the street. And an owner that does not seem to want to change his other dogs thing approach??

That aside with the puppy thing I just do (in keeping with what I do) this:https://www.youtube.com/user/DogerciseLA/playlists

That's Bethney and she also is a balanced trainer and one that I also listen to weekly.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> OP has a family, not sure how many kids or what ages. How would you propose to handle if the kids were going to ride bikes with other kids in the neighborhood and his kids brought their dog, and little Johnny's dog tagged along, and so did little Suzy's and Sammy's dogs?


Well ... won't that fall under "known safe dogs??" 

And your "assuming" (I think) that dogs taught to ignore other dogs would go after another dog if given the opportunity?? As they say ... demonstrably untrue. But ... people are of course free to believe what they chose.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I don't read all the posts either. Are you Chip or MAWL professionally trained on dog obedience or behavior? If you'd rather keep your anonymity, I understand. Thanks!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> Oh, there are plenty of things we should all remember.
> 
> *We should remember what a mess we made out of our first challenging GSD. *
> 
> ...


Gezz ... that part in bold ... must resist the urge "for once to be that guy" .... done. 

So I'll say instead excellent post!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well ... won't that fall under "known safe dogs??"
> 
> And your "assuming" (I think) that dogs taught to ignore other dogs would go after another dog if given the opportunity?? As they say ... demonstrably untrue. But ... people are of course free to believe what they chose.


Just because a dog is known qualifies it as being safe? 

First of all, I am not assuming anything, especially that a dog will go after another dog if given opportunity. If not anything else, I believe just the opposite. 

All I am doing is asking you how do you handle "ignore other dogs" in a real life family situation where kids will be taking the dog out to play with other kids and their dogs. Or those kids and dogs meeting up with other kids they go to school with the next street over on bikes with their dogs? Just kids and their dogs being kids playing with their dogs.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

I'm amazed at the attention this thread got.
If anyone is still interested. It is getting slightly better as the days progress. I dont want to jinx anything, but at least the leash pulling is getting somewhat better. I sort of have to catch her before she gets overly excited, its hard, but I have to read her every step and stop her before she does something wrong. TIME TO GET A BELGIAN MALINOIS!!!
(joking)

And why do people here think I'm poor?
Because I want to renovate my house instead of hiring a $200/hr trainer?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Glad to hear the progress.

Just sorry to hear that your quest for new carpet or shower wall or whatever takes precedence over a decade long partnership with a less material item.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just because a dog is known qualifies it as being safe?
> 
> First of all, I am not assuming anything, especially that a dog will go after another dog if given opportunity. If not anything else, I believe just the opposite.
> 
> All I am doing is asking you how do you handle "ignore other dogs" in a real life family situation where kids will be taking the dog out to play with other kids and their dogs. Or those kids and dogs meeting up with other kids they go to school with the next street over on bikes with their dogs? Just kids and their dogs being kids playing with their dogs.


See thats a tough one. I don't let anyone walk her because I just dont trust them (or her) yet.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> See thats a tough one. I don't let anyone walk her because I just dont trust them (or her) yet.


Well, that was just more of a real life scenario that I was asking Chip how he would apply his methods. I guess it doesn't apply here then but it does in a lot of families with kids. When I was a kid, I always had a GSD or two tagging along, so did other kids in the neighborhood have their dogs with them, just not necessarily GSDs, although some did too. :smile2:


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Stonevintage said:


> Glad to hear the progress.
> 
> Just sorry to hear that your quest for new carpet or shower wall or whatever takes precedence over a decade long partnership with a less material item.


Um, no. Its so I can rent out an apartment, pay the mortgage and put food on the table. But I appreciate the premature judgement and the sarcastic support, Sherlock.
I will still take it and turn it into a positive even if you don't mean it.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Well, that was just more of a real life scenario that I was asking Chip how he would apply his methods. I guess it doesn't apply here then but it does in a lot of families with kids. When I was a kid, I always had a GSD or two tagging along, so did other kids in the neighborhood have their dogs with them, just not necessarily GSDs, although some did too. :smile2:


Living in the country sure has its perks.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

NYCgsd said:


> Living in the country sure has its perks.


Nope, I grew up in the city, prior to leash laws.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> I don't read all the posts either. Are you Chip or MAWL professionally trained on dog obedience or behavior? If you'd rather keep your anonymity, I understand. Thanks!


??? What are you serious?? 

If the "School of Hard Knocks" counts, then yeah I guess I am "Pro??" Not many in attendance however, I guess they didn't like stitches?? 

But is that what your griping about with my saying "If I can do it anybody can???" Do you seriously believe a "Pro" would say that?? 

"I am not a Pro" are among the first words I typed when I joined. After awhile you get tired of saying it and you just "assume" everybody knows it. But hey ... , how many times have I said "I am not a Pro??" I don't know but ... apparently Google does.

https://www.google.com/search?q=chi...=0ahUKEwjr5vDcwJ_OAhVJKWMKHV8qBIMQrQIIKSgEMAA
So yeah start counting.  

And ... so you know, not many "Pro's" hang out on open forums, they don't have the need to deal with "Crap" like "this" on open forums. And when they do "bother to take the time to helps "us" out they ought to be retreated with "Respect!" 

On the internet "everybody is an expert" that was why I started with ... "I am not a Pro." Which as you can "see" is clearly documented. And sigh ... as I have said in the past "anyone is free to contact the sources I link and check with them on anything, I advised they are on FaceBook, and you can ask them questions there." I don't list trainers that don't show there work, the ones that do are the ones I use. 

And ... if required ... that I do indeed heed there words, can yet again be clearly demonstrated. That "fact" is clear in many of my threads. To narrow it down further "The Place Command" I heard of it here first. Turned out I'd been doing it but did not know what it was until a "Pro" on here. Pointed it out to me what I was doing. Apparently I took notice, but not many others were in that thread. He answered my questions and I did a thread on BoxerForum, to help explain what I learned and shared with others, and gave him credit ... they know who he is there, just saying.

And a tip for JQP ... you can tell a "Pro" by there insight and observations and by the questions they ask. I know because I had an ongoing feud with one on "Boxerforum" it would have behooved them to say so. I assumed they were just some another click and treat tool! 

They kept "annoying me with questions" to which I would respond, in a rather well ... my style. Nothing to do with the substance of my answers just you know "Pro" stuff. Took me off pointe, ticked me off. Then they finally asked me if "I believed that fighting females issues could not be solved??" That one stopped me cold!! 

Now I knew, I did a deserve to the "Forum" I did not there were any "Pros" over there and I caused us to lose one ... my bad! We have PM'd and reached an understanding but damage was done ... But ... Pro's that go undercover ... get treated like spies. They don't do what I do because they have experiance and that's what they cite, I tend to do both and add my experiance where applicable. 

At anyrate ... no harm in throwing "Poo" but you ought to aim more carefully, ... most likely that is not something a "Pro" would say.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Just because a dog is known qualifies it as being safe?


Not my policy but that is what they say. 



MineAreWorkingline said:


> First of all, I am not assuming anything, especially that a dog will go after another dog if given opportunity. If not anything else, I believe just the opposite.


 Of course you do.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> All I am doing is asking you how do you handle "ignore other dogs" in a real life family situation where kids will be taking the dog out to play with other kids and their dogs. Or those kids and dogs meeting up with other kids they go to school with the next street over on bikes with their dogs? Just kids and their dogs being kids playing with their dogs.


Well teach your dog to ignore other dogs ... I've already posted in this thread. Three trainers, three different methods.
But ... if those are the requirements and he had answered that yes, a dog friendly or dog comfortable dog is a requirement ... I'd have bowed out. Yep I've gotten that result "dog friendly" but that was not my goal ... it just happened. Most likely the same things I did, would be done?? But I don't have a pack of balanced dogs to train with and I did state a pack of balanced dogs as a requirement. 

Had that goal been stated as a requirement ... rest assured I would not still be here! Not my thing "I don't do other dogs." So yes "Find a Trainer." I posted that info also. Happy now.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

NYCgsd said:


> I'm amazed at the attention this thread got.
> If anyone is still interested. It is getting slightly better as the days progress. I dont want to jinx anything, but at least the leash pulling is getting somewhat better. I sort of have to catch her before she gets overly excited, its hard, but I have to read her every step and stop her before she does something wrong. TIME TO GET A BELGIAN MALINOIS!!!
> (joking)
> 
> ...


Oh ... your still here someone said you were gone, 
... awkward.  

But the thread getting crazy yeah ... that's just kinda what we do around here. If we don't get "feed back" things just kinda go all over the place. On the other hand if we do get feed back .. things kinda go all over the place. :crazy:

The poor thing .. don't sweat it, everyone has there preset "assumptions" so yeah "that's" not really about you.

It seems you have a series of rather complicated requirements?? (in my view) And might not have the right dog to meet them?? I don't know but what I do know is that dogs and kids ... (unless the dog is biting or threatening the kids .. then I have "stuff.") Other than that .. I don't do dogs and kids. 

But the leash thing .... that I got, see the first video clip here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

That is how I started and got the dog walking properly on a leash thing down. And most likely ... with that the stage is now set for round two.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just to clarify something from me NYC, in my replies. What I'm talking about is I think everything your having any trouble with is actually just extensions of one basic issue. Training. What I meant by shopping is that you'd have an easier time with her if you just concentrated on some very simple obedience. I'm not a "pro" or a brilliant sleuth, but I know that its tough sometimes when its the first puppy you've raised with your family to recognize the things that show your on the right path and to build on those.

That's the downside of video. You try to fit your dog into that picture without knowing whether or not she does. The steps to get to that final product may need to be completely different or changed from time to time. You may get there no matter what you choose to do, its not rocket science, but keep in mind the things you don't want like the title of this thread tend to escalate and then like where you said you weren't expecting it, its bad. Good luck.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Nope, I grew up in the city, prior to leash laws.


Ah, the good ol' days



Chip18 said:


> Oh ... your still here someone said you were gone,
> ... awkward.
> 
> But the thread getting crazy yeah ... that's just kinda what we do around here. If we don't get "feed back" things just kinda go all over the place. On the other hand if we do get feed back .. things kinda go all over the place. :crazy:
> ...


yea Im still here, but I won't make any more topics. There are some very nasty people on here. Not you.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I'm starting a new thread on what we were talking about yesterday. Please find it if you were part of last night's posts.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> That may be, but if it is - that trainer should be given credit should they not? That would be beneficial. Why not share and give credit if it's not a personal experience? You can say "years of experience" and "can't remember which trainer recommended it" but surely, there's a few you could pass along? Chances are, they have something online, if they're active to promote and validate their method.
> 
> But in the end, it's all a mix of methods out there and available, so who has the gumption to argue- unless they're a current active trainer with a diversity of situational achievements recently under their belt?


You seem to have a lot of rules about how we post to each other. I don't think there's anything wrong with the current system.

People ask questions if they want to. Others respond if they feel they have something to offer. The original posters are then free to determine whether that collective offering is helpful. They don't have to like it. They're also free to seek help offline if needed. I don't think you can really ask much more of an internet forum. This is just an internet forum. It's a great one, and reading it can be very useful, but it has limitations. It can't be everything to everyone (or even to anyone).


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm starting a new thread on what we were talking about yesterday. Please find it if you were part of last night's posts.


I wasn't part of the discussion, but you could post a link to the new thread here. :smile2:


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> Glad to hear the progress.
> 
> Just sorry to hear that your quest for new carpet or shower wall or whatever takes precedence over a decade long partnership with a less material item.


That was snide and unnecessary. Remember what selzer said about remembering that people come from all different places? That includes how they fit their dogs into their lives.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I'm starting a new thread on what we were talking about yesterday. Please find it if you were part of last night's posts.


:shrug:


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

NYCgsd said:


> And why do people here think I'm poor?
> Because I want to renovate my house instead of hiring a $200/hr trainer?


Even in the very expensive Bay Area, I can find a good 6 week group class in the $120-200 range. And I've worked with a VERY good private trainer with extensive experience breeding, training, and competing with a variety of working breeds many several different venues for $150 per lesson (several hours each), and packages that bring that price down to $100 per lesson.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-time-german-shepherd-owners.html#post8035849


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I wasn't part of the discussion, but you could post a link to the new thread here. :smile2:


See my previous post. I hope it's helpful! Everyone is welcome.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> :shrug:


This is the other topic we talked about. Exercise

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ogs-people-all-need-exercise.html#post8035921


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Stonevintage said:


> I have noticed that recently you have become one of the top 3 "training advisors" here. I want to commend you that you relate that you are still in training yourself. That is a rare bit of fact here.
> 
> It makes me wonder sometimes, why some posters, in the two years that I have been here anyway... have never asked ONE question. I've always thought of a site like this as an evolving thing with all levels of expertise but there is a consistency and I wonder about it.
> 
> It's not just this site but others. Why will some always have advise to offer but never, ever have one question?


I've been here a lot longer than you, and I very, very rarely ask a question. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did in the 13 years I've been a member of this board. 

I'm by far an expert, but I have had GSDs for 30 years so I've dealt with a variety of issues with several different dogs. I have plenty of local training resources and if I do have a problem it's not going to be one of the basic things that are asked over and over again by people new to GSDs or to dogs in general, such as how to crate train, how to housebreak, is my puppy too big/small, when to spay/neuter, how much to feed, etc., which I am quite capable of dealing with on my own. I'm also pretty good at Google.  

For a real training challenge I'm going to want in person help with a qualified individual. And it's not hard to notice which way the balance of those needing help vs those who can offer viable help is tipped. There just aren't that many people here whose training advice I'd trust. :shrug: I know what I know and what I don't know, I know what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, and I know where to get help when I need it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> There just aren't that many people here whose training advice I'd trust. :shrug:.


That hurts. I think I need a drink now. Shall I make you one too?

Just a note...even top level trainers and competitors learn from other trainers and competitors. Nobody ever stops "taking lessons".


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> That hurts. I think I need a drink now. Shall I make you one too?
> 
> Just a note...even top level trainers and competitors learn from other trainers and competitors. Nobody ever stops "taking lessons".


I think she meant with the kinds of problems that she would ask questions about. I had a problem that no one here could help me with unless they had eyes and hands on my dog.


----------



## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Maybe they talk to trainers offline for all of their training needs? Not to take anything away from the forum, but if one has a relationship with a trainer who knows them/their dog, it makes sense to take advantage of that.
> 
> And then they share it here when someone else has a question, which also makes sense if they have something to offer. *Not asking questions here doesn't mean they aren't asking them of someone*.


THIS.

I could take 30 seconds and demonstrate a behavior to someone in person, and ask their opinion on how to improve it, and what I could do better. 

Or, I could type 500 words of descriptive narrative and hope that someone sitting at their computer can correctly visualize what I'm trying to explain and offer useful advice that is appropriate for me and my dog.

So much gets lost in translation, online. Posture. Tone of Voice. Strength and physical stature (of the handler). Body Language. Focus. Patience. *Timing*. 

The internet is a wonderful resource, but it has limits.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

LuvShepherds said:


> I think she meant with the kinds of problems that she would ask questions about. I had a problem that no one here could help me with unless they had eyes and hands on my dog.


Yeah um...I'm sure Debbie got my joke.

I don't ask questions on here either. I have one of the top trainers in the country. A multitude of resources that I know in person. I rarely need input from any board on any topic.

And the other sentence was just a note that nobody ever stops training and asking for input, regardless of what level they are at.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> THIS.
> 
> I could take 30 seconds and demonstrate a behavior to someone in person, and ask their opinion on how to improve it, and what I could do better.
> 
> ...


YES.

I could describe something here and people may or may not pick up on what I'm doing wrong and when. Fifteen seconds in front of my trainer and she'll be calling me out (as I've asked her to).


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Yeah um...I'm sure Debbie got my joke.
> 
> I don't ask questions on here either. I have one of the top trainers in the country. A multitude of resources that I know in person. I rarely need input from any board on any topic.
> 
> And the other sentence was just a note that nobody ever stops training and asking for input, regardless of what level they are at.


There's one thing I can help you with. Gin is harder on you then Vodka. I don't mind topics most sober clubs won't touch.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jax08 said:


> Just a note...even top level trainers and competitors learn from other trainers and competitors. Nobody ever stops "taking lessons".


The key point I was trying to make is that there aren't many people _HERE_, meaning on the board, that I would trust to give me training advice. I do have plenty of people I'd ask for help in real life, or to bounce ideas off of. And I totally agree, no matter how much you know, there's always more to learn. In fact, I think the more you learn the more you realize how much more there IS to learn. 



LuvShepherds said:


> I think she meant with the kinds of problems that she would ask questions about.


Yes, exactly. I've always taken numerous classes with each new puppy and will continue to do so because each dog is an individual, with its own unique personality and challenges. And the ability to humble us, lol.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Yeah um...I'm sure Debbie got my joke.
> 
> I don't ask questions on here either. I have one of the top trainers in the country. A multitude of resources that I know in person. I rarely need input from any board on any topic.
> 
> And the other sentence was just a note that nobody ever stops training and asking for input, regardless of what level they are at.


I ask questions when I want a sampling of responses. And if I recall correctly, they tend to be more along the lines of "is this your experience" and "what would/do you do" versus "what should I do" because I have excellent trainers offline for the "what should I do" questions. Sometimes it is just really interesting to hear what people have done, or would do.

I guess in order to be properly qualified to give any input, I ought to ask more questions of the latter variety.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Steve Strom said:


> There's one thing I can help you with. Gin is harder on you then Vodka. I don't mind topics most sober clubs won't touch.


Tequila is better than both of those. Especially when you make it into a margarita. :wub:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Tequila is better than both of those. Especially when you make it into a margarita. :wub:


Ah, I bow to your superior Bevmo knowledge.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> There's one thing I can help you with. Gin is harder on you then Vodka. I don't mind topics most sober clubs won't touch.



Vodka is my drink of choice! My new summer fave is just fruit, vodka and seltzer water. Perfect after a hot day of training!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> The key point I was trying to make is that there aren't many people _HERE_, meaning on the board, that I would trust to give me training advice. I do have plenty of people I'd ask for help in real life, or to bounce ideas off of. And I totally agree, no matter how much you know, there's always more to learn. In fact, I think the more you learn the more you realize how much more there IS to learn.


Ok. Maybe you didn't get my joke.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

WIBackpacker said:


> THIS.
> 
> I could take 30 seconds and demonstrate a behavior to someone in person, and ask their opinion on how to improve it, and what I could do better.
> 
> ...


That is something so important that really gets no attention online.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WIBackpacker said:


> So much gets lost in translation, online. Posture. Tone of Voice. * Strength and physical stature (of the handler*). Body Language. Focus. Patience. *Timing*.


I would change this to "Presence". Two woman on the WUSV, including the current world champion, are just over 5' and no more than 115#. I've seen men twice their size and strength that couldn't control a stuffed toy.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> That is something so important that really gets no attention online.


It is, isn't it?

It's understandable, why.... when someone registers for an anonymous online forum, s/he doesn't necessarily open their first post as such: 

"Hi, I'm Jane. I'm a 115lb, 55 year old female, I have a soft quiet voice, I avoid direct eye contact, and I don't have much upper body strength. When I get nervous I shuffle my feet and look at the ground. Strange people make me very uncomfortable."

or.

"Hi, I'm Jane. I'm a 170lb, 30 year old female. I'm outgoing, I look everyone in the eyes, and I have no problem throwing my weight around. I have a loud voice, I'm tall with broad shoulders, and I have fast reflexes."

All we know is, Jane has a dog, the dog isn't respecting her. All of this extra physical information is _important_.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> *I would change this to "Presence". * Two woman on the WUSV, including the current world champion, are just over 5' and no more than 115#. I've seen men twice their size and strength that couldn't control a stuffed toy.


Oh sure, I'll readily agree with that. Posture, body carriage, reflexes, confidence. Physical abilities matter, but "Presence" is something more.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> I would change this to "Presence". Two woman on the WUSV, including the current world champion, are just over 5' and no more than 115#. I've seen men twice their size and strength that couldn't control a stuffed toy.


Like a tiger?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

WateryTart said:


> Like a tiger?


I love so much how you brought this back to the tiger. Nice job!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

WateryTart said:


> Like a tiger?


No. Like a....


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Chip! You're against exercise! Isn't it amazing how when the ol' ball gets rolling you end up wondering how they ever could have come to that conclusion? lol, been there!:grin2: Play the video again, tomorrow's August 1st! Celebrate! It's all good.!


Hmm, I really did not say I was "against" exercise. I merely said I just did it as a matter of course ... nothing I ever thought about?? 

And I've seen evidence of the same problems with dogs that that get lot's of exercise ... hence ... "my" initial response.

But you know don't wanna upset the "applecart" and stuff by making people think?? 

I don't know maybe a "proof of concept" project?? A shelter dog with no formal training and a "marathon runner" as an owner??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I wasn't part of the discussion, but you could post a link to the new thread here. :smile2:


Most likely .. I was and don't remember??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

NYCgsd said:


> I'm amazed at the attention this thread got.
> If anyone is still interested. It is getting slightly better as the days progress. I dont want to jinx anything, but at least the leash pulling is getting somewhat better. I sort of have to catch her before she gets overly excited, its hard, but I have to read her every step and stop her before she does something wrong. TIME TO GET A BELGIAN MALINOIS!!!
> (joking)
> 
> ...


You are asking questions and expressing frustration with your puppy from an internet message board. This equals, YOU NEED A TRAINER. You do not necessarily need $200/hour private lessons. You have a NORMAL puppy, and getting it into classes now will probably keep you from avoiding the $200/hour trainer down the line. 

See the bolded below. This lady is a moderator (so someone here thinks she knows something about somethings, but she is also been a member here for quite a while and if she was spewing nonsense, she probably wouldn't still be a moderator), she has experience with the breed. And she wouldn't get her advice from here. Because, she has been here quite a while and has seen the advice that people give, from people suggesting you BITE your puppy, to people suggesting what they heard in class last week. Some of it is probably just fine advice, but how does someone needing to ask the question figure out if it is good or not? 

Do yourself a favor. You aren't poor. So find yourself a good trainer who gives classes for young dogs. Find a club. Talk to some people. And sign your bitch up, and then take her. Listen and learn. 



Cassidy's Mom said:


> I've been here a lot longer than you, and I very, very rarely ask a question. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did in the 13 years I've been a member of this board.
> 
> I'm by far an expert, but I have had GSDs for 30 years so I've dealt with a variety of issues with several different dogs. I have plenty of local training resources and if I do have a problem it's not going to be one of the basic things that are asked over and over again by people new to GSDs or to dogs in general, such as how to crate train, how to housebreak, is my puppy too big/small, when to spay/neuter, how much to feed, etc., which I am quite capable of dealing with on my own. I'm also pretty good at Google.
> 
> For a real training challenge I'm going to want in person help with a qualified individual. And it's not hard to notice which way the balance of those needing help vs those who can offer viable help is tipped. *There just aren't that many people here whose training advice I'd trust.* :shrug: I know what I know and what I don't know, I know what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, and I know where to get help when I need it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I've been here a lot longer than you, and I very, very rarely ask a question. In fact, I can't remember the last time I did in the 13 years I've been a member of this board.
> 
> I'm by far an expert, but I have had GSDs for 30 years so I've dealt with a variety of issues with several different dogs. I have plenty of local training resources and if I do have a problem it's not going to be one of the basic things that are asked over and over again by people new to GSDs or to dogs in general, such as how to crate train, how to housebreak, is my puppy too big/small, when to spay/neuter, how much to feed, etc., which I am quite capable of dealing with on my own. I'm also pretty good at Google.
> 
> For a real training challenge I'm going to want in person help with a qualified individual. And it's not hard to notice which way the balance of those needing help vs those who can offer viable help is tipped. "There just aren't that many people here whose training advice I'd trust.":shrug:" I know what I know and what I don't know, I know what I'm good at and what I'm not good at, and I know where to get help when I need it".


And I've taken opinions here to heart about DA. In one thread it was suggested I "choke my dog out", "never take her to my training place again" (as they would have been offended in an outdoor cafe w/no customers. Told, if I can't walker properly with a stray dog around... this, with an adult dog - I would consider not the basic potty training advise, but more advanced . 

Been thinking about this for a couple of days. I want to get back out there and try with my dog. The posts here shut me down and she's been a backyard dog for the last 6 weeks. I have zero money for training. But, your statement that you would not trust opinions here gives me hope. I will be able to afford a trainer in 6 or 7 months. Just not now. But I let all the "opinions" here get to me and quit.:frown2:

Believe it or not, until we here a statement like this - we think there's something wrong with us to end up feeling hopeless in some situations.

FTR - I don't trust here anymore here either for more than the basics. Every other post will contradict the previous one and to look at responses overall is just a cluster.... 

Thanks for the reality.:smile2:


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

But "if it's on the internet, it's got to be true.". I think you can glean good advice on this forum but you have to be smart, discerning and know your own dog(s). the internet is what it is, a useful tool if used wisely and a waste of time otherwise. People need to think for themselves and use common sense. How did anyone ever own and raise a dog before the internet?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

ksotto333 said:


> But "if it's on the internet, it's got to be true.". I think you can glean good advice on this forum but you have to be smart, discerning and know your own dog(s). the internet is what it is, a useful tool if used wisely and a waste of time otherwise. People need to think for themselves and use common sense. How did anyone ever own and raise a dog before the internet?


Sometimes I think that maybe people are trying too hard, and examining their poor pup for every problem they have read on the internet so they can fix them, and others are spending more time reading about dogs and less time with their dog. Maybe people weren't better with dogs before the internet, but it certainly seems so.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> Sometimes I think that maybe people are trying too hard, and examining their poor pup for every problem they have read on the internet so they can fix them, and others are spending more time reading about dogs and less time with their dog. Maybe people weren't better with dogs before the internet, but it certainly seems so.


You may be right on that. I do some things differently but all in all, it's pretty much the same as the other 4 dogs in the past.

The biggest differences as a result of internet advice would be I feed her better food (thank you pet food advisor and here), am more wary of vaccinations, don't use her name "Summer Bad" when giving corrections and am more careful of hip stress when they're growing. Also using her fanatical ball drive has helped me tremendously for training and the "two ball game" has been a lifesaver for exercise:smile2:. 

I never had one before with such DA and oh such tiny improvements that take oh so long to see results on and seems to be the one issue we're stuck on. I can't help but believe (from what I have read here) that battling DA and high prey drive are associated temperament issues inherent and therefore will take a trainer(at least for me) to get to a manageable level.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Max had been dog reactive since a pup - first time seeing a pup from training class. I believe it was from being run over by moms dog in her backyard. I always managed it he was easily corrected but only went so far with training to look at me treat treat and many reminders and occasionally corrections. I have to say though being directed to a private trainer who owns German shepherds (a plus) who does use e collar training as I would not attempt to use an ecollar myself as I can make matters easily worse misusing such a device. This woman helped me incredibly. It took one training session one correct timing with the e collar by her and he was laying directly next to her German shepherd. He refused to look at this dog who was down at a stay elbow to elbow leaning as far as she could to get a whiff of Max. A few weeks later I had another private session and walked by a rambunctious dog in the van growling and barking. Now we could have done this prior with some reminders and leash pops but had to do none of that. The trainer brought out another shepherd - now mind you these dogs were very well behaved and females - he did not react once not this phased me as much as the fact that he was so much calmer he was much more relaxed almost as if the dogs were not there. At one time her female shepherd broke a stay heading over to him -two inches away before she called her back. Max did not break his down stay or react or look freaked out.. Im amazed at the drastic improvement as what we had accomplished previously. I'm doing flips in the air - only like what I see so far. I could have not accomplished this level by myself I knew he could do this but needed help for him to actually not worry about a dog - I'm am still in complete awe.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

"And why do people here think I'm poor?
Because I want to renovate my house instead of hiring a $200/hr trainer?"


No, because someone suggested that was a reason you didn't want a trainer and it stuck for some reason.



My trainer charged me $1200 for a lifetime of training my dog. Not all trainers charge $200/hr. And I am renovating my 116 year old house. And paying student loans. 



Here's my thought. Your dog is young now and maybe all these problems are bratty puppy problems that you can train away. I hope that is the case. *If* it is not, waiting till he's an adult will make things harder. You'll have 90lb dog that is not in control and that's trouble. Were this dog to cause someone physical harm, you can be liable for medical expenses and there could be legal fees and it could be even worse for your dog depending on state laws. You'll wish you could go back and do things differently. 



If you find a good trainer now, the worst case scenario is you have an incredibly well behaved dog. And maybe you don't get to redo the bathroom right away.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

ksotto333 said:


> But "if it's on the internet, it's got to be true.". I think you can glean good advice on this forum but you have to be smart, discerning and know your own dog(s). the internet is what it is, a useful tool if used wisely and a waste of time otherwise. People need to think for themselves and use common sense. How did anyone ever own and raise a dog before the internet?


Got Bit a lot??


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## tamilove (Aug 6, 2016)

selzer said:


> Can you explain why you think that you do not need a trainer/dog classes. The dog may or may not need them. But I think you do. Most good trainers take their own dogs to classes, because it provides the dog the experience of working with her owner in the presence of other dogs working with their owners.
> 
> But, a lot of people are there learning the basics that make up the building blocks of the dog's behavior: learning how to provide clear communication, learning when to praise, when to treat, when to correct, how to correct. We are given feedback about our body language and our dog's body language, and how that is working for or against us.
> 
> ...


Do you unthinkable group lessons are better than private?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

tamilove said:


> Do you unthinkable group lessons are better than private?


If you have a problem with anything, the best thing is to be able to concentrate on that. It can be too easy to get lost in a group setting and not only make the problem worse, but add some new ones. Group is fine if you're just looking for some repetition, but focus on some things you need to work on can be tough.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

tamilove said:


> Do you unthinkable group lessons are better than private?


It really depends. The group classes I've taken have all had between 5 and 10 dogs, with an instructor and 1 or 2 additional helpers. The helpers would go around the room while the instructor watched over everything. The most attention was given to those with the greatest need of help, and those of us who seemed to pretty much know what we were doing would get acknowledgement or encouragement called out from across the room. 

For basic obedience any of those classes would have been fine for nearly anyone. A specialized class, such as for reactivity, is geared solely towards working on the problem. The one we took with Cassidy years ago had an even higher level of trainer/dog ratio, with as many as 3 or 4 helpers in addition to the main instructor. A class like that may not be for every dog, but it was perfect for us and Cassidy at the time and we got a lot out of it. 

A private trainer working one on one is the best choice for serious issues. It's also the most expensive option, and not always necessary, depending on what you need to work on. If you can find a good, experienced local trainer and can afford private lessons - why not? But I do think there are some benefits _much of the time_, working in a class setting where you're around other dogs, as long as it can be very controlled. The major difficulty with reactivity is the opportunity to work on it under controlled circumstances because out in the real world things happen fast and unexpectedly, and you have to be even more vigilant so you're ready, with a plan in place.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tamilove said:


> Do you unthinkable group lessons are better than private?


It is part of the human condition to think that our problem or our dog's problem is way beyond the norm, and therefore ordinary measures are not going to work. 

For a new owner, who has not owned a GSD before, or someone who has, but has not had much experience, so this dog might just be a different personality than the first one, or the one raised by their parents, I think starting with decent group lessons is probably worth more than individual lessons. 

Group lessons, especially if you begin them BEFORE the pup is too much for you to manage, give you the experience of other dogs and other people working together in a controlled setting. Sometimes your dog is bored, while you are watching others do the exercise. But hopefully you are paying attention and figuring out how you are going to apply the exercise to your dog while waiting your turn. And sometimes if you aren't obnoxious about it, you can work with your dog while others are taking their turn at something. It is NOT a time for dogs to run up to each other and socialize. It IS a time for dogs to see other dogs and not be molested by them, which equals a positive socialization experience. 

And yes, 6-8 dogs in a class and 1 helper besides the instructor is a great group experience if you have an instructor who is pretty good. When you get more dogs in the class, it can get unweildy fast, and the main reason many of us go to classes, besides the controlled setting to work around other dogs, is to get feedback from the trainer. Not much feedback if there are 25 dog-owner teams. Chances are 1/3 of the class at least will be worse than you, which means, they will take up a minimum of 2/3 of the instructor's time. And then what is 15 minutes divided by 16 people? About sixty seconds the trainer has time for you. Questions like this are important.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> @Chip18 I have to ask....do you really believe a working dog can be content,bidable,mentally and physically healthy while spending it's life restricted by a six foot leash?Exercise has no importance?Zero?
> I agree with MAWL that many issues can be avoided in the first place by not denying them their true nature.
> Do you honestly believe that your dogs wouldn't have been neurotic if always leashed,no sniffing,no running,no freedom whatsoever?


Aww ... I "assume" a reasonable level of exercise as a given?? WHen I lived in the big city ... I found dog free areas where my dogs could run unleashed. 

Raising a well trained well behaved dog is all about "balance." A dog that is always allowed free range and a dog that is always on a leash ... can be equally badly behaved. One cannot "exercise" there way out of a badly behaved dog nor can they "discipline" there way out of behavioural issues "exclusively."

People have to exercise "judgement and common sense" when dealing with dogs with issues ... it's pretty much that simple.  

That said ...by and large most unskilled owners ... there go to is more exercise??? Good luck with that, the whole point of exercise is to "increase" the ability to do work!" I seriously doubt I could have out enduranced my "Boxer???" I'm not gonna chase Jack Rabbits thru the NV desert in 90 degree heat as they pop up ...but she did. 

It was on here that a member once said he tried the "exercise" thing. And he was a marathon runner, 13 miles or so a day I think?? And what he discovered was that he had created a "super athlete of an A-Hole dog!" So if people want to try the "exercise" thing exclusively to "fix" there problems ... go for it. I won't get in the way.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Every living creature has a point where it reaches its physical peak and it varies with the individual. Keeping a dog in good or excellent physical condition is called *properly* providing for one's dog, no different than proper nutrition, and should not be considered a negative because the owner is a couch potato or feels compelled to micromanage the dog's every move or the owner feels that if they keep their dog in poor physical condition, it will tire more easily and then require less effort on their part especially when they willingly chose an athletic breed. 

Neglect: verb: to fail to care for* properly*.

There is more to exercise off leash than the exercise itself. Being off leash, allowing a dog to be a dog, have its mental needs and drives met, helps to not create problems with the dog in the first place such as pulling on a leash or leash reactivity. It is well known that exercise is inversely proportional to anxiety and other undesirable behaviors, even in people, to the point of rivaling or superceding the effects of popular medications on the market today.

Sometimes exercise or even just being off leash CAN create a better behaved dog. I spoke with a young woman about a week ago with a horribly leash reactive six month old German Shepherd. She kept repeating that when left loose in a dog park, her dog was a model dog, loved dogs, and was exceptionally well behaved. She could not figure out why her dog was so poorly behaved on a leash outside of the dog park. This young woman had already been through multiple trainers and was telling me about the next two she had lined up. The writing was on the wall in front of her face, but she could not read it. If a dog performs flawlessly off leash even with lots of distractions and is uncontrollable on leash, well... you figure it out. I won't blame it entirely on the leash, but it most certainly was instrumental in this GSD puppy's poor behavior. People have to use common sense and judgment when dealing with dogs with issues, and sometimes common sense is that what one is doing is creating the behaviors that one finds to be an issue.

The whole point of exercise is to create and maintain a healthy dog, not increase the ability to do more work. Exercise is critical for optimal health and to keep the entire body, externally and internally, the musculo skeletal, cardiovascular, endocrine and nervous systems performing as was designed by nature and it doesn't take much slacking off for a profound effect. It just might not be visible to the eye, but it is happening.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Then we actually do agree Chip.We just don't articulate it properly sometimes Of course you don't want to go too far and create a super athlete that still has no impulse control.But they do need time and freedom to do doggy things.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Every living creature has a point where it reaches its physical peak and it varies with the individual. Keeping a dog in good or excellent physical condition is called *properly* providing for one's dog, no different than proper nutrition, and should not be considered a negative because the owner is a couch potato or feels compelled to micromanage the dog's every move or the owner feels that if they keep their dog in poor physical condition, it will tire more easily and then require less effort on their part especially when they willingly chose an athletic breed.
> 
> Neglect: verb: to fail to care for* properly*.
> 
> ...


Sigh ... I'm not in disagreement on the importance of exercise ... I simply take "adequate exercise as a given." Perhaps a flaw on my part???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Sigh ... I'm not in disagreement on the importance of exercise ... I simply take "adequate exercise as a given." Perhaps a flaw on my part???


Yes.


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