# My GSD turned on my son?



## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

I am a little freaked out and will try to keep this short. 

Last night my male GSD, Dutch, growled and put an evil eye on my son. My son is 13yrs old. Dutch has never growled before (he is almost 7 months) and has never exhibited this kind of behavior. Of my 2 GSD pups, he is the lover. Well behaved in the house and very sweet. We have had him since 10wks old. 

I was in bed watching tv with Dutch. My son was in my bathroom taking a shower. When he finished he came into my room with a towel wrapped around him and his hair standing up from the shower. 

Dutch immediately stood up in the bed with head stretched forward and started growling at my son. I grabbed him, said "hey!", and thought he did not recognize my son. He never broke the stare on my son to acknowledge me. He finally stopped growling, but if I was not there, I am not sure if he would have lunged at my son. He maintained a very nervous (?) stance and when Jacob tried to sit down on the bed to pet him, Dutch just kept turning to look at him like he wanted to bite him. So I put him in his kennel. I could not snap him back to a relaxed state.

I am quite sure I did nothing right. I was pretty shocked as this pup is always VERY sweet with both of us, however, he is the guardian if a stranger comes in the house (he barks with intimidation). It scared the crap out of my son and I have to say it scared me too, as it came out of nowhere. My son did nothing to provoke and I can't figure out what the trigger was. Dutch is always in the room with us at night and has been sleeping in my room/bed or he sleeps with my Lab in the dog beds, right next to my bed. He often stays in my son's room as well when he is "free" in the house. 

My son comes home every day to the pups while I am at work. I cannot have a situation where he might turn on my son with me not here. This morning, he seems back to normal. Out in the yard wrestling with Sophie. My son is still sleeping. 

Any advice? Dutch is the male in the back. My female, Sophie, is in the foreground. I am sure I should have given a hard correction of some kind and immediately put him in his kennel? How can I know it won't happen again when I am not here? The pups are kenneled in my living room when I am at work and my son lets them out when he gets home from school.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

Sounds as though he was challenging your son for pack position, or he thought your son was a threat to you, for whatever reason.

Maybe he doesn't like the smell of the soap or shampoo you or he uses or it masked your son's natual odor and your GSD couldn't smell him fresh out of the shower.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> , he is the guardian if a stranger comes in the house (he barks with intimidation).


it sounds like he is fearful and your son smelled and looked different and that set him off
just because he 'barks with intimidation' does not mean he is a guardian
at 10 mos old he should take your cues who to 'allow' and whom not to allow!
i would never let a 10 mo old decide for himself that he has to bark at people coming to my house

we will see what others have to say but it sounds like your pup is fearful and this is an extention of that fear

lol michael e no he is not challenging the kid for position

that said i would not allow this dog on the bed _at all _

he needs to be reminded he is a dog and that you, not him, are a pack leader


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I don't blame you for being freaked out, since your son's safety is a priority. Has Dutch ever done anything like that before? I know my pup went through a phase when he was younger where he'd bark at my DH in similar situations, but it was over in a second with lots of tail wagging and happy whining. If it had been a hard stare and ignoring me, then I'd be worried about it too. 

Are there any OB classes you can get your son and dog together to participate in? That's my first suggestion, without knowing anything about their relationship. I guess my next suggestion would be to try to watch for signs that Dutch may be looking to climb the social ladder, and then knock those rungs right out from under him. If he's claiming the bed as his territory, then he absolutely cannot be allowed on the bed. If he's claiming your bedroom, then unfortunately that area is off limits too. Good luck with getting to the bottom of this. Dutch is still a puppy, so now's the time to nip it in the bud.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Maybe I should not have said "with intimidation", I just meant that when people come over, they are intimidated by his bark. I am trying to break the barking, we do not have visitors very often.
The strange thing about this is, last night was like any other night. Nothing out of the ordinary had happened. No new smells or actions from any other time. 
I will mention "Jaws" was on the television and there was a lot of screaming going on (on t.v.). It crossed my mind that maybe that made him nervous. 
How would you have corrected for the growling at my son? As I said, in 7 months, he has never growled. Not even at strangers coming in.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*"....and his hair standing up from the shower."


*Just like many a dog does when they are displaying themselves to look a bit more prominent or formidable....wonder if a dog thinks a human with their hair standing up is posturing with the same intent???

Show Dutch some pictures of Don King and see how he reacts 


SuperG


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Blanketback - Yes I think you are right, all 4 of us need to get into some training classes. I had a hard time getting Dutch off the bed after this happened, so you could be right, that he was claiming the space. I am just not sure why last night, as all three of us have watched t.v from my bed many times. 
Sounds like I have made a mistake in not enforcing they stay on the floor. 
I wish Dutch had gone to the tail wagging after he realized it was just Jacob and everything was fine, but he didn't. He stayed zero'd in on my son, watching his every move, with no wagging whatsoever. And no particular interest in anything I was doing to try to calm him.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

SuperG said:


> *"....and his hair standing up from the shower."
> 
> 
> *Just like many a dog does when they are displaying themselves to look a bit more prominent or formidable....wonder if a dog thinks a human with their hair standing up is posturing with the same intent???
> ...


Ha! It's all I could think of that was different, you could be right! :wild:


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I didn't correct my pup for barking at my DH. I said, "Silly boy, it's Daddy. You're being a dum dum" lol. But like I said, he was surprised and barked, and then got over it. I could never assume exactly what transpired at your home with your son, so I can't say whether you're overreacting and shouldn't make a big deal about it, or if this is the beginning of a bad situation and you should have had an immediate, "WHOA! Bad dog!" moment where he was hustled right into his crate for the night. You'd really have to have been there to make that call.

ETA: just saw your last post - if you had a hard time getting him off the bed, then that's definitely a 'whoa!' moment, lol. That can't continue. I know it's nice to snuggle with a dog on the bed, but not when it's leading to claiming the territory. I wouldn't let him back on the bed for a very long time, if he was my puppy. This is a real pain in the butt to fix, when it's left for too long a time. DH's dog comes to mind, lol...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

For me Atika, I don't care why, its the fact that he will. It would be all about management and obedience, not giving him the chance to decide on his own how to react to your son. Behaving the way I say he's going to.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

There are things that you have to take into consideration. How was the lighting? Did your son talk when entering the room or talk to the dog when the dog was staring him down? Both my male and female have growled at my son and scared the poop out of him. In every instance they weren't expecting him, it was dark, he had a hoodie on in the dark, etc. once he spoke they snapped out of it. Let's just say that my son is now careful when entering the yard or house when it's late, dark and everyone is sleeping. Just the other day I was outside with the dogs and Midnite was staring in the house and was getting agitated, so I let him in. I never heard my sons car pull up or the car door shut, he came in and went up the stairs. Midnite must have caught a glimpse of him entering. When I let the dog in he ran through the house with his nose in the air, hackles up. He stopped the behavior when he got to the top of the stairs and caught a scent(my guess) of my son.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Bottom line is: "Off the bed" means get off the bed. It doesn't mean 'give me a hard time and be obnoxious about it, and make me wish I'd never let you up in the first place, you miserable dog.' No more bed privileges for Dutch, IMO.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Atika said:


> Blanketback - Yes I think you are right, all 4 of us need to get into some training classes. I had a hard time getting Dutch off the bed after this happened, so you could be right, that he was claiming the space. I am just not sure why last night, as all three of us have watched t.v from my bed many times.
> Sounds like I have made a mistake in not enforcing they stay on the floor.
> I wish Dutch had gone to the tail wagging after he realized it was just Jacob and everything was fine, but he didn't. He stayed zero'd in on my son, watching his every move, with no wagging whatsoever. And no particular interest in anything I was doing to try to calm him.


At what point did he realize it was your son? Are you sure he ever did? I agree that there are moments to correct and moments to make light of the situation. I do know in my cases with my son, the dogs were almost on him before he spoke, but like I said they stopped in their tracks and got excited to see him, giving him kisses.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

And that's where our experiences are different than OP's, llombardo. Our dogs reacted and then recovered. Her puppy didn't, so getting a trainer on board asap, and losing the bed privileges pronto, would be the best way to go here. There's no sense in making light of this, and comparing it to our experiences, when it's a completely different situation. No focus, and refusing to get off the bed? No way, Jose. Not here, anyway.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Blanketback said:


> And that's where our experiences are different than OP's, llombardo. Our dogs reacted and then recovered. Her puppy didn't, so getting a trainer on board asap, and losing the bed privileges pronto, would be the best way to go here. There's no sense in making light of this, and comparing it to our experiences, when it's a completely different situation. No focus, and refusing to get off the bed? No way, Jose. Not here, anyway.


Im not making light of the situation, I want the OP to think about the questions I ask, because I asked them for a reason. I'm not saying no to a trainer, but it would be nice to know when this dog knew it was the son. If he never realized it then he could have been standing his ground versus claiming the spot. If the dog has never been taught to get up and move when told or it has not been enforced, then the dog isn't going to move period, no matter what state of mine he is in.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I wish Dutch had gone to the tail wagging after he realized it was just Jacob and everything was fine, but he didn't. He stayed zero'd in on my son, watching his every move, with no wagging whatsoever. And no particular interest in anything I was doing to try to calm him.


Atika, at around 5mos or so a little suspicion kicks in. But him not shaking it off right away is a problem, and I look at it things a little different. The dogs I trust completely with my kids never startle by what my kids are doing. They know right away thats my kid that came in acting goofy. They're happy as soon as one comes in, hoodie, costume, it doesnt matter. They know. 

Obedience class is fine, but I would still carefully manage his freedom in the house and his relationship with my son too.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> lol michael e no he is not challenging the kid for position
> 
> that said i would not allow this dog on the bed _at all _
> 
> he needs to be reminded he is a dog and that you, not him, are a pack leader


And you know this...how?

Sounds as though you think someone is being challenged for position...


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Another thing (agreeing with Steve's take on this situation) you could do is have your son take over the feeding of the dogs. This is something that I did, in regards to my DH's dog. She knows I control the most important part of her life, lol. This has made a huge impact on her.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Another idea*

Yes, as everyone is saying off the bed and also off any couches if you allow that too. Be consistent and don't relent! Also one more thing no one mentioned, should this happen again, do not give a physical correction to your dog as they are staring at your son. And growling. This will teach the dog that when they see your son they will receive pain or discomfort. They will then associate him with bad things, see... A lot of time people have dogs that bark like banshees at strangers, the people will hit or yell or leash pop their dog to shut them up. The dog learns to be quiet. So the owners think the dog was trained out of that behavior, then the dog bites someone one day and the owner says (the dog turned! This was random! Out of the blue!) when really your dog wanted to attack strangers the entire time, they just learned to be quiet about it while their hostility grew because of something negative happening each time they would see a stranger. Anyway, just be careful with that. I think the people who give physical corrections to dogs must be highly trained and know the right timing, and in most cases should be done as a last resort scenario if you know what I mean...


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

a dog not wanting off the bed or resisting being put off a bed does not need to be on the bed
we dont know if this dog is or isnt
its not challenging for position but its an unruly dog who has not earned bed priveleges

look up
nothing in life is free


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Great advice all of you, thank you. 
You are right Blanketback, Dutch did not recover and assume his normal behavior when he realized it was Jacob. He remained very "vigilant". It was just completely out of character. 
He did stop growling, but he kept his eyes on Jacob and did not relax. Very unnerving really.
I will stop the bed/sofa thing right away. And I will start having Jacob feed them, they eat in their kennels. 
I will not let Jacob take them out after school since I am not here. They will have to wait another hour for pee break, which will be tough as they get excited when he comes in. 
I guess I am most concerned about having to monitor every second. Because it only takes a second for the pups to react when they want to. Everything has been completely fine for 5 months and this came out of the blue. 
I will also call the breeder and see how much some good training classes would be. I should do that regardless. I thought I could do the training myself, but I am not as far along as I should be at this stage. 
I am sure I need to work on being more "assertive" with these guys. This breed is definitely more challenging than any other I have had. 
Jacob is very good with large dogs and knows well all the rules. He has never been the type of kid to tease an animal or even pet one without asking permission first. I know for sure it wasn't anything he did to provoke.
All that being said, I cannot take any chances. Dutch will be kenneled unless I am here. And now I am even worried about that. Dang it.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Are you raising 2 littermates?


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

llombardo said:


> If the dog has never been taught to get up and move when told or it has not been enforced, then the dog isn't going to move period, no matter what state of mine he is in.


This is me - I have not been strong enough in this. I need to be more assertive with them and set better ground rules.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> Are you raising 2 littermates?


They are from the same breeder, but different litters and completely different parents. They are from Jinopo.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I was asking because I wondered if maybe they've bonded to each other moreso than to yourself. 

I'd do the same as what you're planning to do, and not have your son let them out without you being there. Much better safe than sorry, right? Dutch is still a puppy, has a long way to go before he's a mature adult, and this is definitely a fixable issue. I'd start looking for a very competent trainer though, one who has experience with GSDs and not just some hopeful wannabe, lol. Good luck


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

llombardo said:


> At what point did he realize it was your son? Are you sure he ever did? I agree that there are moments to correct and moments to make light of the situation. I do know in my cases with my son, the dogs were almost on him before he spoke, but like I said they stopped in their tracks and got excited to see him, giving him kisses.


llombardo - this is completely what I expected. But it didn't happen. I was very shocked he did not revert to the kisses and wags.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

keep the dog on a leash so you can move him without physically confronting him


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Blanketback said:


> I was asking because I wondered if maybe they've bonded to each other moreso than to yourself.
> 
> I'd do the same as what you're planning to do, and not have your son let them out without you being there. Much better safe than sorry, right? Dutch is still a puppy, has a long way to go before he's a mature adult, and this is definitely a fixable issue. I'd start looking for a very competent trainer though, one who has experience with GSDs and not just some hopeful wannabe, lol. Good luck


Thank you! Thank goodness for this forum. :hug:


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

LOL, at us here...we love our GSDs first, then we love everyone else's GSDs next, and then next there's the rest of the world


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> keep the dog on a leash so you can move him without physically confronting him


Good idea. I had him on leash all the time when I first got him. But once I got Sophie, a month later, my best intentions went a little haywire. 
The two pups together are much harder to handle than one on one. They definitely do not listen as well. Sophie is all about toys and fetch. She thinks of nothing else until she is tired. She is independent and high energy. Dutch is more mellow. He settles very well and can be free in the house with no trouble when I am home. When they are out together, they want to do the crazy play, but they are getting better and will chill when I say "enough" usually.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I wouldn't be to freaked out. Kaleb barks at himself in the mirror. One time my husband came in from the backyard at night without turning the light on. Kaleb was barking up a storm at him. His low threatening bark. Another incident I can recall is when I was taking a shower. I needed more shampoo. I left the shower running and went to get it sopping wet. I guess Kaleb was surprised and did his low bark at me. I just talk to him and he calms down. It does not make me question or fear my dog. 

Kaleb is not much of a growler, he normally just barks low. Riley growled more. I would just correct him. (verbally)


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

trcy said:


> I wouldn't be to freaked out. Kaleb barks at himself in the mirror. One time my husband came in from the backyard at night without turning the light on. Kaleb was barking up a storm at him. His low threatening bark. Another incident I can recall is when I was taking a shower. I needed more shampoo. I left the shower running and went to get it sopping wet. I guess Kaleb was surprised and did his low bark at me. I just talk to him and he calms down. It does not make me question or fear my dog.
> 
> Kaleb is not much of a growler, he normally just barks low. Riley growled more. I would just correct him. (verbally)


Thank you for this. I know I have this little wimp inside me that gets a little wiggy around any type of aggression. I need to make sure I suppress that when dealing with these pups.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I've startled my current pup a time or two - and she barked as a result. Surprised me enough a time or two that I jumped before yelling.

The helper at the club where I used to train wore his hair in a mohawk -- in part to get the dogs riled up I think. Keep that in mind with your son's hair all wonky...


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## Ace GSD (May 30, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> it sounds like he is fearful and your son smelled and looked different and that set him off
> just because he 'barks with intimidation' does not mean he is a guardian
> at 10 mos old he should take your cues who to 'allow' and whom not to allow!
> i would never let a 10 mo old decide for himself that he has to bark at people coming to my house
> ...


Well said


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I would have your son do the feeding, do some obedience with treats. 

I think its smart that the dog is not out loose when you are not around. Good management!  

Dutch needs to earn the trust back of your son. He is 13, my little sister is 13, so i can kind of picture his maturity level. And i think if your son is anything like my sister he would be capable of doing some obedience and feeding times. Sitting, waiting before eating. Learning new tricks. *Basically to bond with your son. *

I would still get a trainer to help you ASAP, before you start implementing any of the ideas of the people on the board, because we didnt see it happen, even if i we did we still may not know.. The trainer could get a better idea of why Dutch is doing this, and also for someone you can directly talk to about it all. But everyone on this board still gave great advice, and for now management i guess! 

Your Fur babies are beautiful!


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

Watching this with interest. 

When I get my pup I plan on doing most of the training, though wondering now how best to make sure that the dog doesn't ignore both my partner and 11 year old son as well. I'm just as nervous about having an aggresive family dog as you!


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

1st off it sounds like Dutch didn't recognize your son and was startled by him.

After he recognized your son, it does sound like he made the decision to exert his dominance over him. 

After him not getting off the bed the second you told him to tells me you don't have his full respect.

Dutch could be an Alpha Male in the making, regardless, 

I recommend starting NILIF today, along with every family member working with him on basic obedience

to establish their rank. I would also rotate feeding and treats between family members with him, all of

which he must work for. You should always correct him for any unwanted behavior and especially 

for being aggressive to any human pack members.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Deno said:


> After him not getting off the bed the second you told him to tells me you don't have his full respect


Or maybe he doesn't know the command.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

or maybe the dog has a low threshold and was in a different zone and unreachable -- may be a nervous dog , something to watch out for in other dynamics

defensive, reactive, bite first then ask questions -- he should have been able to restablize himself after making the mistake .


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Or maybe he doesn't know the command.


This reminded me of something. I pretty much train the dogs. So, "down" means lay down and "off" means get off whatever you are on. My husband was trying to get Kaleb off the bed. He kept saying down and kaleb went to the foot of the bed and laid down. My husband looks at me and says, "he just doesn't listen or he's not trained!". So, I walk up and tell Kaleb "off". Kaleb jumps down and goes to his dog bed. I told my husband, "it helps if you use the right command." it was kind of funny...


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Or maybe he doesn't know the command.


 
I give them both more credit than that.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> exert his dominance over him


is dutch neutered?
if not now would be a good time to start thinking about that
dr karen becker says if your male is 'assertive' to get it neutered


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

How did I know after reading the topic and then seeing the last person to post that it would say something about neutering the dog. Yes diesel we get it neuter neuter neuter.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Deno said:


> I give them both more credit than that.


Why? My dog doesn't know the command, I never taught it because I never want him off. He's allowed to be on it all the time because I like it and because we never had problems because of it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Who's Dr. Karen Becker?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> or maybe the dog has a low threshold and was in a different zone and unreachable -- may be a nervous dog , something to watch out for in other dynamics
> 
> defensive, reactive, bite first then ask questions -- he should have been able to restablize himself after making the mistake .


The OP already stated that training is lacking and not consistent. So not knowing or refusal is most likely due to that.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> is dutch neutered?
> if not now would be a good time to start thinking about that
> dr karen becker says if your male is 'assertive' to get it neutered


As in asserting his place in the pack order?

I wonder why that 'dominance' thing keeps rearing it's ugly head?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

MichaelE said:


> As in asserting his place in the pack order?
> 
> I wonder why that 'dominance' thing keeps rearing it's ugly head?


Because some people believe in it and believe that everything a dog does is because he's trying to climb the ranks. Convenient explanation for every problem with no solution other than being a good leader with no good explanation on how it's done and no regard for the fact that most people aren't leaders and don't have the personality. So also a way to make people feel like they're lacking. 

Somehow Ivan and ME train their dogs without the dominance theory and they don't turn out too bad.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm a fan of the "dominance thing"....however my definition of dominance might differ from those which scoff at the idea of the "dominance thing". In a nutshell, dominance is an attribute which leads with a mutual respect knowing that both/all entities become better than they could alone....synergy...a great team..etc. Dogs are more than willing to take the lead and they have no bones about it, yet there can only be one leader in a dog's life, perhaps the dog itself.......but then again, the vast majority of dogs seek a leader but if the void needs to be filled....they'll gladly accept the position.

SuperG


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i dont necessarily buy the dominance thing but you do have to have a dog respect you as the leader
we are leaders by feeding and caring for our otherwise helpless dog
i find a lot of folks just think the dog can grow up with little to not training and that is not the case


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Why? My dog doesn't know the command, I never taught it because I never want him off. He's allowed to be on it all the time because I like it and because we never had problems because of it.


I have never trained my dogs to get off anything, and yet if I tell them to get off the bed or the couch
they do it instantly.

Are you are telling me if there "was" a reason for you to want your dog to get off the bed or couch
you couldn't make them get down?


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> Because some people believe in it and believe that everything a dog does is because he's trying to climb the ranks. Convenient explanation for every problem with no solution other than being a good leader with no good explanation on how it's done and no regard for the fact that most people aren't leaders and don't have the personality. So also a way to make people feel like they're lacking.
> 
> Somehow Ivan and ME train their dogs without the dominance theory and they don't turn out too bad.


The fact is neither of you have ever owned an Alpha Male.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Deno said:


> I have never trained my dogs to get off anything, and yet if I tell them to get off the bed or the couch
> they do it instantly.
> 
> Are you are telling me if there "was" a reason for you to want your dog to get off the bed or couch
> you couldn't make them get down?


Any video Deno? Can you turn your back, not move, and just say off? That would be pretty good.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Any video Deno? Can you turn your back, not move, and just say off? That would be pretty good.


Would you like to make a Wager?

If you like, I will pay for your air fare and you can make the video 

here in my own house.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Uhhh, no thanks.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Uhhh, no thanks.


Lol your honor at stake? lmao


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I just wanted to see an impressive video, not turn it into some kind of rendezvous.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Deno said:


> The fact is neither of you have ever owned an Alpha Male.


either of us as in Ivan and Michael Ellis? I'm sure they've never seen a dog like yours. 

any owner whose dog growls at them thinks they have a Dominant or Alpha Male (always capitalized for extra importance)

your dog also seems to be a psychic. he somehow knows commands you never taught him. deno, you're the best trainer with the baddest dog on earth.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Deno said:


> I have never trained my dogs to get off anything, and yet if I tell them to get off the bed or the couch
> they do it instantly.
> 
> Are you are telling me if there "was" a reason for you to want your dog to get off the bed or couch
> you couldn't make them get down?


nope, that's not what I'm saying. he needs to get down when I have to change sheets. I just motion him off but he doesn't know a command. if I say off he won't understand what I mean


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Uhhh, no thanks.


 
I assure you I am not fibbing about this ability, as complicated 

as it may sound to some of you. 

I am not conscious of ever training this other than the fact 

that they have a clear understanding of no and they are 

very tuned in to my body language. As far as turning my

back on them, I have never attempted that. For some reason

I always look at them when I tell them to do something.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> nope, that's not what I'm saying. he needs to get down when I have to change sheets. I just motion him off but he doesn't know a command. if I say off he won't understand what I mean


What.......


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I didnt say you were fibbing and I'm not looking at anything complicated. To see if he "Knows" a command, remove your body language or any spatial pressure you may be using.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG and MBD, yes, I agree with that version of it. it's like the parent child thing. they have to respect us, our rules and boundaries. I just don't believe that every problem a dog has arises from the dog fighting for rank. too simple and no solutions for those that don't know how to puff their chests and act the big bad Alpha (always capitalized)

we have to be like good parents, fair, consistent, loving. the dog needs to understand that we control their resources and respect us. I don't believe in the dominance theory beyond this. they def have a pack drive I just don't believe it transfers to humans as much as some believe. 

so when they growl at us it's like a kid that grew the balls to talk back to their parents.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Deno said:


> What.......


dumbed down version

I can get him off when I need to


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
> Because some people believe in it and believe that everything a dog does is because he's trying to climb the ranks. Convenient explanation for every problem with no solution other than being a good leader with no good explanation on how it's done and no regard for the fact that most people aren't leaders and don't have the personality. So also a way to make people feel like they're lacking.
> 
> Somehow Ivan and ME train their dogs without the dominance theory and they don't turn out too bad.





> The fact is neither of you have ever owned an Alpha Male.


Lol, she means Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis. Hahahaaa.

I'm sorry Atika. Thats my last off topic contribution.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Deno said:


> I assure you I am not fibbing about this ability, as complicated
> 
> as it may sound to some of you.
> 
> ...


I get where you are coming from......its called assertiveness.
not sure why we need a video.......This forum is becoming video mad.......everything has to be backed up by video footage.....LOL........


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> dumbed down version
> 
> I can get him off when I need to


You started it.

*removed name calling not allowed*


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> either of us as in Ivan and Michael Ellis? I'm sure they've never seen a dog like yours.
> 
> any owner whose dog growls at them thinks they have a Dominant or Alpha Male (always capitalized for extra importance)
> 
> your dog also seems to be a psychic. he somehow knows commands you never taught him. deno, you're the best trainer with the baddest dog on earth.


 
Surly you jest.......

I know I am not the most Knowledgeable or the best trainer on earth.

But I do have a dog that I have trained that is all that.

It's just not as complicated as many of you find it to be.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, she means Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis. Hahahaaa.
> 
> I'm sorry Atika. Thats my last off topic contribution.


Lol oh he thought you were ivan? so ivan and me?)))))

and yes, I'm also sorry and that was my last as well


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

lalachka said:


> Lol oh he thought you were ivan? so ivan and me?)))))
> 
> and yes, I'm also sorry and that was my last as well


Don't you ever sleep


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

sparra said:


> Don't you ever sleep


atika, sorry, one more lolol

I do but in the afternoon. I'm a nightie so you have a few more hours of my presence
I'm actually out with my doggie now, taking a break


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

lalachka said:


> either of us as in Ivan and Michael Ellis? I'm sure they've never seen a dog like yours.
> 
> any owner whose dog growls at them thinks they have a Dominant or Alpha Male (always capitalized for extra importance)
> 
> your dog also seems to be a psychic. he somehow knows commands you never taught him. deno, you're the best trainer with the baddest dog on earth.


:wild:LOL I couldn't stop myself from posting, this is a hilarious post. If only I was this witty.....


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

ugavet2012 said:


> :wild:LOL I couldn't stop myself from posting, this is a hilarious post. If only I was this witty.....


It's all in the afternoon nap........


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

too easy -- "To see if he "Knows" a command, remove your body language or any spatial pressure you may be using. " Tone of voice . 

A dog living in close human contact will offer a number of behaviours, run through a "menu" when it is unsure what is asked of it . 
Finally when the right choice is selected , dog is rewarded. Dogs don't need to be taught everything with a command .


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## Tratkins (Feb 15, 2014)

Atika, Based on another thread, I think we live down the street from each other. My male is almost 9 months and we are using an excellent (IMO) local trainer/behaviorist. He lives in Gilbert. Since I had trained my last dog (not a GSD) with ease, I thought I could with my GSD too. I CAN teach Samson any trick in the world with ease, but when it comes to behaviors and expectations for this BIG "puppy", I found myself lacking. 

Anyway, he "saw things" in our dog's behavior that I didn't...especially when it came to barrier training and our children. We DO allow our dog on our bed and on the couch and so far that is going well. Our biggest problem so far is that Samson barks when any of our family members LEAVES the room or even the car. He likes us all together! LOL We are working on that.

I will PM you the trainer's number. He can come to your house (he does work evenings too) which is best because he can see the dog in its own environment and teach you. We did his puppy manners class when Samson was 10 weeks old and then we are now half way through obedience I. Feel free to ask any questions that you like. Keep in mind, you don't have to do the whole program if you don't want to, but even just a couple of sessions a la carte for "behavior" analysis is worth its weight in gold. He never even touched my dog for the first couple of sessions. I took notes while he talked and he observed Samson in our home and he told me what was going on and we set goals. What I love about this trainer is that I know he does what he does because he has the best interest about the dog. It's not about the $ for him and once you have a relationship with him, you can call him anytime for follow up questions.

PM is on the way!


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

carmspack said:


> too easy -- "To see if he "Knows" a command, remove your body language or any spatial pressure you may be using. " Tone of voice .
> 
> A dog living in close human contact will offer a number of behaviours, run through a "menu" when it is unsure what is asked of it .
> Finally when the right choice is selected , dog is rewarded. Dogs don't need to be taught everything with a command .


they also won't know a word that was never taught to them. they also won't offer a behavior that was never taught. yeah, mine will go through the sit, down, paw when not sure. he won't offer to jump off the bed because it's something that's asked once a month or less. 
I have to motion him off or guide with a leash or walk away and recall him. it doesn't matter to me enough to take the time to teach. I'm sure there are others like me.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> too easy -- "To see if he "Knows" a command, remove your body language or any spatial pressure you may be using. " Tone of voice .
> 
> A dog living in close human contact will offer a number of behaviours, run through a "menu" when it is unsure what is asked of it .
> Finally when the right choice is selected , dog is rewarded. Dogs don't need to be taught everything with a command .


One of those behaviors on the menu may be to just ignore and go about alpha dominantly cleansing himself, and then ohh boy! Time for the 9volts, right Deno? But you're right, I'm probably just projecting my goal with my dogs. Respond to a verbal command no matter what I'm doing physically. 

For what its worth Atika, that type of attention to me is something I look for to gage that I'm able to avoid situations like yours. Something I'm comfortable with.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I just don't believe that every problem a dog has arises from the dog fighting for rank. *I completely agree*
> 
> we have to be like good parents, fair, consistent, loving. *I agree again.*
> 
> the dog needs to understand that we control their resources and respect us. *I mostly disagree...if controlling their resources means feeding them, watering them and exercising them then any individual would have total "respect" of their dog and there would be no problems to any degree. Personally, I believe it is leadership which makes the bigger difference in the relationship and condones the desired behavior we are attempting to create. Yes, having the upper hand in controlling the rewards for proper behavior has merit to it but it is but a stepping stone and small part of the overall process to reach the level where the dog "respects" their particular human. The "leadership" of which I speak is created by the superior intelligence a human supposedly has over the dog amongst other human qualities. Simply, if we shun our responsibility to "control" or provide a dog's resources, the dog would simply die over a period of time or become so unruly, most would give up on the dog. Being one step ( if not two or three ) ahead of a dog via our intelligence is what cements the leadership which dogs crave for...however if there is no leadership by the human or an ample amount based on the dog's requirement then the dog need not "respect" their human because the dog will provide it's version of leadership to fill the void. *


*I am making an assumption of what you mean by "resources" 


SuperG
*


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

SuperG said:


> *I am making an assumption of what you mean by "resources"
> 
> 
> SuperG
> *


I'm starting a thread. this is interesting to me


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

lalachka said:


> Why? My dog doesn't know the command, I never taught it because I never want him off. He's allowed to be on it all the time because I like it and because we never had problems because of it.


Lalachka, This is pretty much the situation. I have allowed him on the bed and sofa, so he does not really know my "get down" to be fair. Since this happened I have put him in his kennel at bed time and he seems fine with that. Sophie stays in her kennel with no problem as well.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Deno said:


> I assure you I am not fibbing about this ability, as complicated
> 
> as it may sound to some of you.
> 
> ...


My Chocolate Lab has been this way. She is just very intuitive I suppose, but she knows just about everything I tell her to do and I have never really done extensive training with her. Of course she is also 10years old and we have been attached at the hip, so I think she has just learned routines, tone of voice and hand movements over the years. Or maybe she is brilliant


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Just a little update..
I have calmed down, thanks to all of you. After re-playing in my mind I believe it was, as most of you feel, that Dutch did not recognize Jacob or the way he looked startled him. Still a bit concerned that he did not break his trance right away, but I will consult with a trainer here on how to handle that (thank you for the recommendation Tratkins!!!!). Regardless of his fear at the time, I have to make sure this doesn't happen. Granted, he did not lunge or bite, but he scared the bejeebus out of Jacob. I will say, Jacob let it go by the next day and has not been hesitant to pet or approach Dutch, which is good. 
I have taken the advice here as far as letting my son do the feedings, no sleeping in the bed, kenneling through the night.
Dutch is not neutered. And Sophie is not fixed. Jenna, my Lab is spayed.
The plan is to keep them separated when Sophie goes into heat. I am on the fence about getting him neutered. That is a whole other thread :laugh: 
Once I get a bit of 3rd party analysis, will let you know the outcome. I am hopeful that I can get a handle on this quickly. Thank you so much for all of your replies!


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well here is the thing
as they approach sexual maturity you may be seeing more and more unwanted behaviors
and yes tensions and aggressions may increase but its your house :shrug:


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> well here is the thing
> as they approach sexual maturity you may be seeing more and more unwanted behaviors
> and yes tensions and aggressions may increase but its your house :shrug:


Ugh. I have read that neutering too soon can affect physical development, but I know there are tons of threads on this debate, so I won't go there here. Something I need to start thinking hard about.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

well here is the thing
do you want a pretty dog that bites your kids ? 
or would you rather have a family pet?
you may not be able to do both
get the hormones out of the way then train the dog

my feelings are quite strong on this and you will have some that do not agree but imo family pets that are expected to be around kids should not be left intact
especially ESPECIALLY when you have a bitch coming into heat in the same house

you can read about others agony when they have two intact opposite sex dogs in the same house
you will have miserable pets and quite possibly an infamous oopsie litter

i know what i would do


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I agree. It's impossible to train a male dog to not attack your family without neutering. Sometimes you should even neuter more than once just to make sure. 
On a side note someone mentioned neutering on another thread so I'm sure the neuter police should check that out.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> well here is the thing
> do you want a pretty dog that bites your kids ?
> or would you rather have a family pet?


Family pet for sure Diesel. I have always had females and I have always spayed them. It was not until I got these pups that I started questioning every thing I have ever done  Do GSD's do that to you?
I welcome all opinions from those with more experience than myself.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

dobby have you got kids and two intact dogs of opposite sex in your house?
until you have perhaps you should refrain from snide remarks :shrug:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> The plan is to keep them separated when Sophie goes into heat.


Separated like away from your house? Have you ever been around a male once the female goes into season? Maybe not all of them, but they can completely lose their head. Have you thought of spaying her?


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I would love to know how many times you have recommended neutering. It just seems every time I see you post that's all it's about. And yes I do have a son, and at one time two males not neutered. My son is still alive and has all his appendages.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

my boy diesel said:


> dobby have you got kids and two intact dogs of opposite sex in your house?
> until you have perhaps you should refrain from snide remarks :shrug:


I do, I had two full grown, intact males, until one passed (no issues between the two). Now I have one full grown intact and one 1 year old intact, no issues....can I make snide remarks? ;-) 

I must've had freaks of nature...OR I trained, was clear about the rules, and never budged on those rules. I also managed to do it with a young child. Here they all are in their "spots" (the GSD is my previous). Let me tell you, that Male corgi is a hard (in every sense of the word), little dog...that would rule the roost and put other's in their place if he could. BUT, he knows the rules, and is now quite polite. :-D


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

if people are having aggression and territorial issues with their dogs it makes sense to neuter them 
even the experts can agree on that 
sorry you dont but that is not my nor the ops issue

dani did you bring a female in heat into the scene? if not then its a whole nother ball of wax

two intact males is hardly the same as two intact males with a bitch in heat in the middle of them


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Well, I have never had a bitch in heat WITH a intact male, no. 
However, from reading here, some have been successful boarding the male, others with just keeping them separated. And then there are those that agree on the neutering. 
Hence why I am on the fence about it. I have no doubt that everyone with an opinion on the subject has good reason for their opinion. I just find that all dogs are different. If my male exhibits aggression, getting him neutered is an option I will consider (more than consider).
ha, I am catching myself as I type, you would say - he has already exhibited aggression?
I know the separation thing will be impossible on site if he is the type to chew through walls to get to her.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

My choice would be spaying for a lot of reasons, but specific to you, neutering may not help with him or he may not be too bad intact. I don't think you know till you see him, but removing her going into heat,,, It never comes up.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> I do, I had two full grown, intact males, until one passed (no issues between the two). Now I have one full grown intact and one 1 year old intact, no issues....can I make snide remarks? ;-)
> 
> I must've had freaks of nature...OR I trained, was clear about the rules, and never budged on those rules. I also managed to do it with a young child. Here they all are in their "spots" (the GSD is my previous). Let me tell you, that Male corgi is a hard (in every sense of the word), little dog...that would rule the roost and put other's in their place if he could. BUT, he knows the rules, and is now quite polite. :-D


Both Corgi and Shep are beautiful!


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm trying to figure out which dog are the sock. The shepherd looks kinda guilty.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

DobbyDad said:


> I'm trying to figure out which dog are the sock. The shepherd looks kinda guilty.


Haha, the dogs were in trouble for pulling a bacon wrapper out of the trash and the boy was in trouble for throwing all his lunch on the floor. lol

Thanks, Atika!! :-D


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

my boy diesel said:


> well here is the thing
> do you want a pretty dog that bites your kids ?
> or would you rather have a family pet?
> you may not be able to do both
> ...


Wait..what????

We've had more than one intact female or male in the house and managed to raise our kids without a single dog bite or an any oops litters. Maybe we got lucky...but I doubt it. An intact animals has nothing to do with an animal that shouldn't be left around children. Those animals can be fixed and still should not be around children.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

my boy diesel said:


> well here is the thing
> do you want a pretty dog that bites your kids ?
> or would you rather have a family pet?
> you may not be able to do both
> ...


I am so tired of people assuming a spay/neuter will fix the dominant or aggressive dog. It might help but IMHO most likely not. There are so many factors that play a role, one quick surgical procedure just doesn't fix it all.

I raised my 2 kids in a household with 5 dogs. 2 were neutered and the other 3 (2 females, 1 male) were not. Not once were my children in danger nor bit by any dog in my home. 

Honestly!


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

You know, an very old school Russian trainer once told me that "if tyson rushes the oldest son with barking and growling once more, lay him out with a solid back hand" 
But ty never did it again and I do not think I could do that. Ever. But I will say that I am sure a trainer and ob class with dutch and your son may pay off, and management until you can get a good handle on things.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> get the hormones out of the way *then train the dog*


honestly does it look like i said 'neuter will fix it all' ??


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

> I just find that all dogs are different.


ayup


so dr becker is _the_ go to for all things vaccine and health but

Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs

guess she knows nothing about intact animals???


> *If your dog becomes assertive, desexing (a full neuter) can be an important part of managing long-term behavior issues. Again, in this instance, if you have an aggressive dog, we must evaluate the risks vs. benefits. The health benefits of leaving a temperamental dog intact do not outweigh the greater risk of this aggressive animal being re-homed, dumped, or abused – or hurting another animal or human.* With behavior issues, spaying or neutering can be a logical choice. It's better to have endocrine disease but be in a loving home, than be disease-free but dumped at a kill shelter for a behavior problem.


:shrug:

disclaimer 
i do not believe neuter/spay automatically leads to endocrin disorders
many of the health issues would have occured anyway whether or not the animal was altered or not


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

my boy diesel said:


> well here is the thing
> *do you want a pretty dog that bites your kids ?
> or would you rather have a family pet?*
> you may not be able to do both
> ...





my boy diesel said:


> honestly does it look like i said 'neuter will fix it all' ??


Keeping in the context of your entire post ...no, you never said neuter will fix it all. You said "you MAY not be able to do both" However, you certainly STRONGLY implied that intact animals will bite kids.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

in this situation this dog very nearly bit the ops son _already_
what more do you want me to say or not say??
what will make you happy jax??

in dr beckers peice she says that altering is an important aspect to managing behavior issues
there is no need for this dog to keep his gonads if hes going to behave this way


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> either of us as in Ivan and Michael Ellis? I'm sure they've never seen a dog like yours.
> 
> any owner whose dog growls at them thinks they have a Dominant or Alpha Male (always capitalized for extra importance)
> 
> your dog also seems to be a psychic. he somehow knows commands you never taught him. deno, you're the best trainer with the baddest dog on earth.


 
I just had to come back to this.......... 

Unlike you I have actually corrected this problem with my dog and daughter, and just like the OP I was freaked out 

when it first happened and unlike the OP's dog, Dex viciously challenge my daughter. This happened a few more

times out of the blue for no reason until it was corrected. I researched all I could find on the subject and threw out 

all of the garbage like thyroid problems and such. I don't want to scare the OP, but if I am right about the cause, it

will happen again unless corrective measures are taken asap. What I did worked, please tell me what Ivan & Michaels 

take would be on the subject and just what they would do to correct it. Your remark about my dog being psychic makes

me wonder if you even have a dog. If you do, you still don't seem to have a clue as far as I can see.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Agreed*



my boy diesel said:


> in this situation this dog very nearly bit the ops son _already_
> what more do you want me to say or not say??
> what will make you happy??
> 
> ...


Neutering is a good idea. It may not
Be a cure all but if the safety of your son is at stake, I would get this out of the way, and then his behavior could improve, and if it doesn't improve, at least you can rule out the hormone side of it so you know what you have to work on. Agreed diesel  unless you don't want to neuter for some other reason such as you would rather him be a show dog or used for breeding, then you will have to put in that much more work... Honestly at this point even if you trained your dog and he did a 180 and was the most well behaved dog ever, I don't believe you can ever truly let you guard down now when it comes to him and your son or other people...


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Neutering*

OP- here is a great unbiased article explaining the pros and cons of neutering and how neutering can affect aggression towards people.

Neutering Your Male Dog ? Pros and Cons


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> I didnt say you were fibbing and I'm not looking at anything complicated. To see if he "Knows" a command, remove your body language or any spatial pressure you may be using.


 
You and your buddy don't make any sense, what's the 

difference in me telling my dog to do something and/or 

him knowing a certain command to do it.

If he does what I tell him, he does what I tell him.

You two seem to pick you "know what with" the chickens.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

my boy diesel said:


> in this situation this dog very nearly bit the ops son _already_
> what more do you want me to say or not say??
> what will make you happy jax??
> 
> ...


For a person to not make blanket statements ? For you to not be snarky when I wasn't being snarky to you. But that does seem to be a habit with you. 

Don't care about Dr. Becker. She's not my go to for behavior. I don't disagree that an aggressive MALE MAY be helped with neutering. though I think this is more a genetic component than a hormonal one. There is evidence that spaying could have the opposite affect on females. 

I do strongly disagree with your blanket statement that intact animals will bite kids. Carry on by all means. But don't be surprised when people call you on such broad, sweeping, statements.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

lwell you read what you wanna read
i was talking to the op when i said 'may not have both' and not to anyone else who has intact pets 
not sure what else you want to hear :shrug:

since this dog has already nearly bitten i feel pretty safe to say neutering would be better at this point for him
and if he bites and is still intact there is another statistic for ya

oh and if there is a genetic component then all the more reason he does not get to stay in the gene pool


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

lalachka said:


> dumbed down version
> 
> I can get him off when I need to


 
Amazing, I thought you thought he needed a command for this.

It's all just common sense isn't it?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Deno said:


> I researched all I could find on the subject and threw out all of the garbage like thyroid problems and such.


"Threw out all the garbage"?


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

ugavet2012 said:


> :wild:LOL I couldn't stop myself from posting, this is a hilarious post. If only I was this witty.....


I think you are, you just don't know it.....


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> One of those behaviors on the menu may be to just ignore and go about alpha dominantly cleansing himself, and then ohh boy! Time for the 9volts, right Deno? But you're right, I'm probably just projecting my goal with my dogs. Respond to a verbal command no matter what I'm doing physically.
> 
> For what its worth Atika, that type of attention to me is something I look for to gage that I'm able to avoid situations like yours. Something I'm comfortable with.


 
Sure enough, a 9 volt correction can work wonders.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> OP- here is a great unbiased article explaining the pros and cons of neutering and how neutering can affect aggression towards people.
> 
> Neutering Your Male Dog ? Pros and Cons


Neutering a dog is not natural.

Dex is my Bud, he will live a full life

just like all of my other males.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> "Threw out all the garbage"?


Sure thing, after you throw out all the garbage you are left with the solution.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Deno*



Deno said:


> Neutering a dog is not natural.
> 
> Dex is my Bud, he will live a full life
> 
> just like all of my other males.


Deno, open your eyes and mind. No one is saying neutering is natural. That point is mute okay? It's totally not the point, the point is that op has a dog that is aggressive, therefore, neutering needs to be a topic that is discussed and that the op determines if it is right for them OR NOT. If you are going to comment, please comment something helpful rather than something useless.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Deno, open your eyes and mind. No one is saying neutering is natural. That point is mute okay? It's totally not the point, the point is that op has a dog that is aggressive, therefore, neutering needs to be a topic that is discussed and that the op determines if it is right for them OR NOT. If you are going to comment, please comment something helpful rather than something useless.


Barbie, with all due respect.... the OP doesn't have an aggressive dog.

My mind is open, you are the one in the fog.

Neutering is by no means the fix for the OP.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

7 month old puppy. Puppy is still to young for neutering to have effect on this behavior. At this age training is the answer. Enroll in some training classes and let your son be the handler.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

i disagree because 7-8 mo is puberty setting in
but definitely get a good trainer on board


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Deno said:


> Barbie, with all due respect.... the OP doesn't have an aggressive dog.
> 
> My mind is open, you are the one in the fog.
> 
> Neutering is by no means the fix for the OP.


When did I say it was? You need to open your eyes and re read my post. I never once said neutering will cure the behavior. I said its an option and it might, and also provided a website for them to make an informed decision. Saying something reductive like neutering is not natural is possibly the most unhelpful thing anyone can say.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

28 of the last 38 posts have been about neutering. I count 2 people for neutering and 6 for training.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

DobbyDad said:


> 28 of the last 38 posts have been about neutering. I count 2 people for neutering and 6 for training.


Put me in the neuter and training group.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

disclaimer: I read the first two pages and the last two pages and skipped the rest. What I saw was that you were given lots of good advice. 

My pup is 8 months old and while out on an early morning walk we found two ladies, up at the top of a hill, chatting. There hair was backlit so their heads looked as if they were glowing. That triggered some, What the Heck barking from my pup. We just stood at the bottom of the hill until the ladies walked down past us (cautiously I might add) and my pup got to see that they were indeed just people. He still kept his eye on them for awhile, though. 

This is all new to them. Odd stuff will trigger alert barking and maybe even barking to try to intimidate the oddity. Put me in the Get a good Trainer category. The pups are in their feisty "teenager" period and will want to flex their muscles and push limits now and then. I keep a martingale collar on my pup for just such occasions. I can grab it and stand tall and tell him to knock it off. No yelling, since with IPO training that just gets him even more riled up. 

Raising two pups together is three times the work, I once read. You have to work with each individually and then together.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

for the reading impaired my opinion is neuter AND train the dog


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## HOBY (Aug 12, 2013)

*Some ideas*

OP, just my 2 cents. The dog knows you by your smell first, your sound, body language and last your looks. Your young dog was totally surprised by the smell and look of your son. As soon as your son reacted in surprise or fear the dog got more new smells reinforcing his drive to react the way he continued. This all can happen so fast. With experience from age and training his reaction will change to a more controlled mode. I would let the dog smell all items over and over again that you think set him off. Were there any sounds like an exhaust fan going, sudden door opening? Let the dog sleep with your sons worn clothing. 
Try this but present it to a trainer first. Put on a long coat, a big hat, carry an open umbrella and approach your dog from up wind. You may get the same kind of response from the dog that you got when he was on the bed.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Originally Posted by *Deno*  
_Barbie, with all due respect.... the OP doesn't have an aggressive dog._

_My mind is open, you are the one in the fog._

_Neutering is by no means the fix for the OP._




When did I say it was? You need to open your eyes and re read my post. I never once said neutering will cure the behavior. I said its an option and it might, and also provided a website for them to make an informed decision. Saying something reductive like neutering is not natural is possibly the most unhelpful thing anyone can say. 
__________________



*removed by moderator*

In post #106 you said neutering was a good idea and you recomended it.

I never said you said it was cure all.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Deno said:


> Sure thing, after you throw out all the garbage you are left with the solution.


Aggression can be caused by thyroid issues, this is well documented, not "garbage". 

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Aberrant Behavior and Thyroid Dysfunction


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

HOBY said:


> The dog knows you by your smell first, your sound, body language and last your looks.


I somewhat agree with this but certainly I have seen behavior which would indicate otherwise.

For instance, if anybody pulls into our driveway our dog has very specific behavior....HOWEVER when I pull into my driveway and get out of my vehicle there is a marked difference in my dog's behavior. I assume ( and I very well could be wrong ) the dog distinguishes the difference immediately as her behavior indicates as such. Does she make the distinction based on smell, sound, body language or lastly looks? I would suggest the reason my dog does not do her normal alarm/alert barking in the window when I pull into my driveway and get out is due to sight and sound primarily. I would assume ( could be wrong again ) that the dog first realizes a vehicle has pulled into our driveway via sound which triggers her to go to the window and visually investigate. However, I do believe that the dog's keen sense of hearing and ability to differentiate between similar sounds, determines this is my vehicle and there is no reason for the dog to go into alert status. Now, the dog sees me get out of the vehicle and visually is reinforced that it is I...once again no need to go to alert status. The likelihood that the dog's altered behavior was shaped via smell or body language seems remote if at all possible. Yes, body language could be a factor but not until I am out of vehicle. 

I assume most all of us have witnessed this in a similar fashion with our dogs and their ability to use their senses in a varying order at times. 

My dog knows me by my "looks" rather easily if scent and body language are not available for the dog to utilize.

One last thought which I find interesting, if I change my appearance, say winter clothing like a hooded jacket concealing most of my head and face along with adding bulk to my body, I have seen this visual change put my dogs off balance briefly until they scent me. This bit of confusion is short-lived as the dog makes the visual correction going forward and perhaps knows it is me the next time I dress in such winter garb.

SuperG


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Originally Posted by *Deno*  
_Barbie, with all due respect.... the OP doesn't have an aggressive dog._

_My mind is open, you are the one in the fog._

_Neutering is by no means the fix for the OP._



When did I say it was? You need to open your eyes and re read my post. I never once said neutering will cure the behavior. I said its an option and it might, and also provided a website for them to make an informed decision. Saying something reductive like neutering is not natural is possibly the most unhelpful thing anyone can say. 



I am going to try this again.

In post # 117 you said the OP had an aggressive dog.

And again in post # 106 you said neutering was a good idea and you recommended it.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Aggression can be caused by thyroid issues, this is well documented, not "garbage".
> 
> Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Aberrant Behavior and Thyroid Dysfunction


 
Debbie, in the context of the OP's case, it is garbage to suggest this is the cause "at this point"

due to the fact that the one aggressive episode was directed at one person and hadn't been exhibited elsewhere. 

Now if the dog starts going off on everybody for no reason it could be a health issue.

When Dex first started challenging my daughter, I scoured the net and perused every thing on the subject

I could find. There were many who would always suggest to people having this same problem that it could

be a thyroid issue, I am yet to hear of one case where this was confirmed to be the cause. 

I plucked below what I thought were the main points from your link , I don't think the OP mentioned any of these things.

PS, are you aware of any health issues related to a full moon? Kind of flakey to me, but who knows........

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 


Typical clinical signs include unprovoked aggression towards other animals and/or people, sudden onset of seizure disorder in adulthood, disorientation, moodiness, erratic temperament, periods of hyperactivity, hypoattentiveness, depression, fearfulness and phobias, anxiety, submissiveness, passivity, compulsiveness, and irritability. After episodes, most of the animals appeared to come out of a trance like state, and were unaware of their bizarre behavior.

The clinical signs in these animals, before they show the sudden onset of behavioral aggression, can include minor problems such as inattentiveness, fearfulness, seasonal allergies, skin and coat disorders, and intense itching. These may be early subtle signs of thyroid dysfunction, with no other typical signs of thyroid disease being manifested.

Typical signs can be incessant whining, nervousness, schizoid behavior, fear in the presence of strangers, hyperventilating and undue sweating, disorientation, and failure to be attentive. These changes can progress to sudden unprovoked aggressiveness in unfamiliar situations with other animals, people and especially with children.

Another group of dogs show seizure or seizure-like disorders of sudden onset that can occur at any time from puberty to mid-life. These dogs appear perfectly healthy outwardly, have normal hair coats and energy, but suddenly seizure for no apparent reason. The seizures are often spaced several weeks to months apart, may coincide with the full moon, and can appear in brief clusters. In some cases the animals become aggressive and attack those around them shortly before or after having one of the seizures. Two recent cases involved young dogs 

Our ongoing study now includes over 1500 cases of dogs presented to veterinary clinics for aberrant behavior. The first 499 cases have been analyzed independently by a neural network correlative statistical program. _Results showed a significant relationship between thyroid dysfunction and seizure disorder, and thyroid dysfunction and dog-to-human aggression._


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

Tratkins said:


> local trainer/behaviorist.
> I will PM you the trainer's number.


Thank you for this Tratkins! I emailed the trainer and will get a plan together to get started next week. Great recommendation, and even better that he is so close. I really appreciate it!


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

misslesleedavis1 said:


> I am sure a trainer and ob class with dutch and your son may pay off, and management until you can get a good handle on things.


I think so too. I was chatting with a trainer I know about the issue. He suggested creating different scenarios that might be similar but smaller scale. For instance wave a towel or even a wash cloth, or other different circumstance he is not used to. Not to taunt him, but to acclimate him. He said to just give a quick correction if it happens (i.e. poke in the rib or verbal) and then move on. I said, what if he snaps/bites at me? He said, he might, but better to find out now than when he is full grown.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> OP- here is a great unbiased article explaining the pros and cons of neutering and how neutering can affect aggression towards people.
> 
> Neutering Your Male Dog ? Pros and Cons


Thanks Barbie!


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

car2ner said:


> This is all new to them. Odd stuff will trigger alert barking and maybe even barking to try to intimidate the oddity. Put me in the Get a good Trainer category. The pups are in their feisty "teenager" period and will want to flex their muscles and push limits now and then. I keep a martingale collar on my pup for just such occasions. I can grab it and stand tall and tell him to knock it off. No yelling, since with IPO training that just gets him even more riled up.
> 
> Raising two pups together is three times the work, I once read. You have to work with each individually and then together.


Yes, much more work than I realized! However it has gotten easier every day. There were a few times I have had to face the wall and breath (lol) when I first brought them home. But at the time I also had a 10yr old Akita that had Cushings disease. So 2 seniors, and 2 pups was bordering insanity. Turns out they learned from each other. I lost my Akita  But my Lab is enjoying the pups believe it or not and it helps to heal the void of losing her buddy. 
I am hoping for the "oddity" thing - I hope that is what this was all about.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

SuperG said:


> I somewhat agree with this but certainly I have seen behavior which would indicate otherwise.
> 
> For instance, if anybody pulls into our driveway our dog has very specific behavior....HOWEVER when I pull into my driveway and get out of my vehicle there is a marked difference in my dog's behavior.
> SuperG


There used to be a stray cat in my neighborhood that I would feed at night. As soon as I pulled into the neighborhood, I would see her run from wherever she was over to my driveway and wait. It "seemed" she knew the sound of my truck. Pavlov's cat


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Atika said:


> I think so too. I was chatting with a trainer I know about the issue. He suggested creating different scenarios that might be similar but smaller scale. For instance wave a towel or even a wash cloth, or other different circumstance he is not used to. Not to taunt him, but to acclimate him. He said to just give a quick correction if it happens (i.e. poke in the rib or verbal) and then move on. I said, what if he snaps/bites at me? He said, he might, but better to find out now than when he is full grown.


or use a muzzle


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

lalachka said:


> or use a muzzle


Yes - I thought of that too.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I think this is key to the discussion 
quote the OP "Dutch immediately stood up in the bed with head stretched forward and started growling at my son. I grabbed him, said "hey!", and thought he did not recognize my son. He never broke the stare on my son to acknowledge me. He finally stopped growling, but if I was not there, I am not sure if he would have lunged at my son. He maintained a very nervous (?) stance and when Jacob tried to sit down on the bed to pet him, Dutch just kept turning to look at him like he wanted to bite him. So I put him in his kennel. I could not snap him back to a relaxed state."

that to me is temperament . That to me is a sharp dog . He reacted because he was startled . Your son did nothing to prolong or to promote the dog's behaviour. The dog should have immediately recognized his mistake and recovered his equilibrium. Instead he did not. He remained suspicious and aroused . You said the dog maintained a nervous stance. That is it . The dog is nervous .
Could be because the dog lives in the shadow of his littermate , and this time was by himself .
That "sweet" description may be his insecurity .

The dog had no recovery . That is a nervous , sharp , temperamental issue.

This is the dog that is your risk , extra management needed.
Imagine the dog at 3 or 4 years of age and you or son come home late , quietly letting yourself in , to be met by a panicked dog in a zone that he can't be reached , fear aggressive.


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## Atika (Jun 10, 2014)

carmspack said:


> The dog had no recovery . That is a nervous , sharp , temperamental issue.
> 
> This is the dog that is your risk , extra management needed.
> Imagine the dog at 3 or 4 years of age and you or son come home late , quietly letting yourself in , to be met by a panicked dog in a zone that he can't be reached , fear aggressive.


You are so right carmspack. This was the main concern, no immediate recovery upon recognition. I need to be totally confident this won't happen. 
Would he ever physically attack Jacob (or anyone else)? I just don't know. Before this happened I would have said "no way". 
My female is not a litter mate, just of same age and from same breeder. Completely different personality, but they play well together.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Would he ever physically attack Jacob (or anyone else)? I just don't know. Before this happened I would have said "no way".


From this point on, I would just say, yes he would and manage him in a way that always takes that into account.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

carmspack said:


> I think this is key to the discussion
> quote the OP "Dutch immediately stood up in the bed with head stretched forward and started growling at my son. I grabbed him, said "hey!", and thought he did not recognize my son. He never broke the stare on my son to acknowledge me. He finally stopped growling, but if I was not there, I am not sure if he would have lunged at my son. He maintained a very nervous (?) stance and when Jacob tried to sit down on the bed to pet him, Dutch just kept turning to look at him like he wanted to bite him. So I put him in his kennel. I could not snap him back to a relaxed state."
> 
> that to me is temperament . That to me is a sharp dog . He reacted because he was startled . Your son did nothing to prolong or to promote the dog's behaviour. The dog should have immediately recognized his mistake and recovered his equilibrium. Instead he did not. He remained suspicious and aroused . You said the dog maintained a nervous stance. That is it . The dog is nervous .
> ...


Yup


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

My first dog gave me some serious attitude once...it set me back momentarily and made me wonder "what if"....as I recall, I gave the dog back a more serious attitude...and we never went there again.

SuperG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you have had both dogs since they were 4 months or younger, the same issues as littermates probably apply.

Once upon a time, I was taking my parents dogs to be groomed and they were both fine. I brought the ES in first and handed him over, and then I walked around with Cujo for 2+ hours in a very busy store around people, dogs, etc. He was awesome. I decided to just pick up Pip while I had Cujo with me. We didn't make it out of the grooming salan area without Cujo acting like an idiot. He was really young at the time, because Pippy was old when we brought Cujo over. But with Pippy present the dynamics changed for Cujo.

I also do not like the dog's lack of snapping out of it. If the dog sees something odd, fine some reaction is not the end of the world. They aren't robots. But once the person talks to the dog, or the owner speaks matter-of-factly to the dog, to knock off the nonsense, and there is no big negative feelings going on from taht quarter, the dog should recover quickly. 

Also the mention that the dog is the one that will bark to alert for strangers/etc -- that ain't being the protective one.

Good luck with him. He is young, and so long as everyone doesn't over-react, and run out and get him neutered or smack him down, he still may be able to work through a stage of fearful-reactivity, as he matures. Maybe he needs to see people coming out of the shower in towels a few more times. 

I would not be surprised if he starts reacting in other circumstances as well.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> Good luck with him. He is young, and so long as everyone doesn't over-react, and run out and get him neutered or smack him down, he still may be able to work through a stage of fearful-reactivity, as he matures. Maybe he needs to see people coming out of the shower in towels a few more times.
> 
> I would not be surprised if he starts reacting in other circumstances as well.


I don't think smacking him either way will work, whether he is neutered or not should not make a difference when working through it.


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