# Do you think this looks ok?



## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

I went to have Kofi evaluated at a SchH club last week and the guy said he didn't think he had what it takes. Which is fine if that is the case but I think he would enjoy it so I would like to try again. 

I'm not looking to go all the way to the top with him or anything, just give him something to do. but the club I went to tends to focus only on top level handlers (and I'm a total novice ) but I have possibly found another less serious club and would like to try again.

I got my mum to film Kofi doing a bit of tug work (with my dad holding him), I know I am not a helper so am most probably doing it all wrong but just wondering if you think Kofi looks ok from the clip? Or at least worth trying out? 

Thank you. 

041-6.mp4 video by kofipup - Photobucket


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Go to the other club and have fun. Many clubs that are very competitive don't want handlers that aren't going to commit fully. 
From the video Kofi looks confident. The bite wasn't real deep, I would have had him counter before rewarding, but trying to see if he looks "ok" from a short clip is hard to do. I wouldn't do bitework on your own, that should be left to the experienced helpers. 
Kofi is very handsome!


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Go to the other club and have some fun.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Thank you both. 

I'm not looking to compete or anything serious, just want to do something with him. He was never bought as a SchH prospect (there were some in the litter that went to sport homes and one to the police) but he was less drivey than those pups. He is my first working line so I wanted to be eased in gently. :wild:


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

wolfspirit said:


> He is my first working line so I wanted to be eased in gently. :wild:


you should have rented a mal for a month and then gone straight to a drivey gsd lmao

(just some humor. On my phone so I can't see that clip)


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Well, I think both you and Kofi would have a lot of fun doing Schutzhund, and both of you will learn so much, you'll have a whole new appreciation for your dog! He has nice prey drive from the video - shouldn't have any issues with club level work. 

Wait for your new club to show you how to work Kofi with a tug, what a good bite is, what to do if you don't get a good bite, and how to build his work ethic for the tug. Right now, and I know you are completely new to this - Kofi got the tug way to easily, and his bite was "loose" - but these are things that training can really improve on, but you need to know what to look for. 

I know it is fun to work your own dog, but if these early sessions are not done properly, Kofi will develop bad habits that will be very frustrating for you and your helper to try and fix later on.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Doesn't. Have. What. It. TAKES?

Go get a second opinion. That dog is _definitely_ worth the effort. Is he good enough to win the Nationals? Maybe, maybe not. Is he good enough to have a lot of fun with at the club level? YES! You both looked like you were having a good time with it.

About that "doesn't have what it takes" business - I have a friend who was told the same thing about her dog, while training at a different club. They weren't being mean about it, but I think they just didn't want to see her do a lot of hard work and get disappointed. Well, she did the work anyway, and got a Schutzhund I on her dog. She baked a cake with the words, "She'll Never Do It" on it. She took it to the other club, where they all happily celebrated her accomplishment by "eating their words."


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Thank you guys. 

I hope the new club will let us join and we can have some fun!


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## KJenkins (Aug 29, 2005)

World of difference between how your dog may work on you and how he will on a strange helper on a strange field.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

It is hard from that short of a video to see if she does have what it takes. I do think try another club that would be willing to teach a novice how to do Sch. After all it will be as much a learning experience for you as Kofi.


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## SilentDobe (Jun 8, 2009)

I think Kofi would be just fine in Schutz IMO. I see "trainer" flaws that could have helped his evaluation. I didn't see her trying really hard to set the grip and just gave up. Again, he looked good! Give it another go!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

If you really want to learn about the sport, then I would suggest that you go to the "competitive" club. You will learn more in 6 months than you will in 6 years with a club where the main goal is to "have fun". 
There is a big difference between "having what it takes" for top sport and "having what it takes" to make SchH1. With good work, mediocre dogs can make SchH1(and look good doing it).


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## SilentDobe (Jun 8, 2009)

Zahnburg said:


> If you really want to learn about the sport, then I would suggest that you go to the "competitive" club. You will learn more in 6 months than you will in 6 years with a club where the main goal is to "have fun".
> There is a big difference between "having what it takes" for top sport and "having what it takes" to make SchH1. With good work, mediocre dogs can make SchH1(and look good doing it).


Well said!


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## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

I'm very new to this too, but I would not give up on the idea just yet.


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## rvadog (Dec 9, 2010)

Hunther's Dad said:


> Doesn't. Have. What. It. TAKES?
> 
> Go get a second opinion. That dog is _definitely_ worth the effort. Is he good enough to win the Nationals? Maybe, maybe not. Is he good enough to have a lot of fun with at the club level? YES! You both looked like you were having a good time with it.


You know all of that by looking at a short vid of the dog playing tug with a family member?

My mutt looks like a monster tugging with me. I can enormous physical pressure on him and all it does is amp him up. Put him on a sleeve and you start seeing cracks. Put him on a sleeve with a new helper and he looks like a different (bad nerved) animal.

That said, go to the club. Have fun. You might end up with a dog that's not great but a love for the sport.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Thank you all. I talked to the other club today and I am going along on Thursday for them to meet Kofi, so I will keep my fingers crossed.

If they don't think he would be any good then I will sign up for the agility instead.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Just wanted to add that the other club doesn't seem to be a 'fun' club, they seem fairly serious but maybe more willing to accept novices. (hopefully!)


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Zahnburg said:


> If you really want to learn about the sport, then I would suggest that you go to the "competitive" club. You will learn more in 6 months than you will in 6 years with a club where the main goal is to "have fun".
> There is a big difference between "having what it takes" for top sport and "having what it takes" to make SchH1. With good work, mediocre dogs can make SchH1(and look good doing it).


I agree with Zahnburg. i think that the most discouraging thing to new handlers is a lack of progress. And more progress is made in better clubs. 

Anyway things are really tense at a lot of clubs right now because people are coming off of winter breaks and trying to get dogs ready for big competitions. Try them a few more times and see what they are really like. 

Good luck with your dog and wish you much success. :thumbup:


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

rvadog said:


> *You know all of that by looking at a short vid of the dog playing tug with a family member?*
> 
> My mutt looks like a monster tugging with me. I can enormous physical pressure on him and all it does is amp him up. Put him on a sleeve and you start seeing cracks. Put him on a sleeve with a new helper and he looks like a different (bad nerved) animal.
> 
> That said, go to the club. Have fun. You might end up with a dog that's not great but a love for the sport.


Yeah. Because I'm just that good. :rofl: 

Seriously, you said it the way I intended to. Take him to the club and find out. Heck, he's playing more energetically than my Britta, and she got a Schutzhund III.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fast said:


> I agree with Zahnburg. i think that the most discouraging thing to new handlers is a lack of progress. And more progress is made in better clubs.
> 
> Anyway things are really tense at a lot of clubs right now because people are coming off of winter breaks and trying to get dogs ready for big competitions. Try them a few more times and see what they are really like.
> Good luck with your dog and wish you much success. :thumbup:


I don't think lack of progress is discouraging if you aren't pushing the dog, and letting the dog mature. Progress is nice as long as the dog isn't being pushed over their threshold.
Some people don't want to trial in the big competitions, club trials are fine for them and their goals....to each his own.
Though if you decide to train with a club that is competitive then you need to set your bar higher as well. I personally would go with the club that is competitive as well, you will probably learn much more, but your dog doesn't have to be titling earlier than you and s/he are ready...don't let that pressure put you off or ruin your bond, and your enthusiasm.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think lack of progress is discouraging if you aren't pushing the dog, and letting the dog mature. Progress is nice as long as the dog isn't being pushed over their threshold.
> Some people don't want to trial in the big competitions, club trials are fine for them and their goals....to each his own.
> Though if you decide to train with a club that is competitive then you need to set your bar higher as well. I personally would go with the club that is competitive as well, you will probably learn much more, but your dog doesn't have to be titling earlier than you and s/he are ready...don't let that pressure put you off or ruin your bond, and your enthusiasm.


Who's talking about pushing dogs too fast???? That's not what good clubs do. Are standards moving becoming so ******* low in this sport that the suggestion to train with a good club is perverted into a negative?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Good clubs, no they don't push, but some trainers within a club are not so good and will push a dog beyond its age/limits. I just thought I'd point out that slow steady progress is best for a strong foundation...and I did NOT say that training with a good club is negative at all, I said that you have to set your bar higher. I guess I should have added this; _instead of just going for the fun of it and not committing as so many do_ 
Remember, this person is new to the sport, and may not know what to look for... Wow, sorry to get you all riled up, Fast. sheesh


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> Good clubs, no they don't push, but some trainers within a club are not so good and will push a dog beyond its age/limits. I just thought I'd point out that slow steady progress is best for a strong foundation...and I did NOT say that training with a good club is negative at all, I said that you have to set your bar higher. I guess I should have added this; _instead of just going for the fun of it and not committing as so many do_
> Remember, this person is new to the sport, and may not know what to look for... Wow, sorry to get you all riled up, Fast. sheesh


Sheesh yourself. Maybe what you should have said was nothing. It dosen't sound like you know what to look for either. And you are still trying to make a positive, like commitment, into a negative thing. What *in your experience* leads you to believe that commitment and fun don't go together in schutzhund? 


People need to start getting called on their BS on this forum. It's come to the point here that up is down. Black is white. Good dogs can't do well in schutzhund. Heeling is reflective of the dogs temperament. On and on it goes.:crazy:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To look at it from another angle, a lot of good clubs just won't put up with people who can't make a firm commitment with at least one dog. I'm talking more about the level of commitment and effort from the handler aside from the inherent abilities of their dog. I just don't think only doing one or two phases for fun is really doing Schutzhund at all and it would pain me to waste time on people and dogs just dabbling around and never ready to move on. I know a lot of people start this way but it's fairly obvious when someone "matures" in the sport and is ready to go out and get a solid dog that can be trained to a higher level and make that commitment worth it to the club and to the handler. I will admit I cringe when someone comes out with a dog that probably has the worst possible pedigree for doing Schutzhund and expects the club to bend over backward to basically train them to train their dog and work their dog at an embarrassingly low level. 

That is just a general confession of mine based on the direction of this thread, not directed at the OP or their dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fast said:


> Sheesh yourself. Maybe what you should have said was nothing. It dosen't sound like you know what to look for either. And you are still trying to make a positive, like commitment, into a negative thing. What *in your experience* leads you to believe that commitment and fun don't go together in schutzhund?
> 
> 
> People need to start getting called on their BS on this forum. It's come to the point here that up is down. Black is white. Good dogs can't do well in schutzhund. Heeling is reflective of the dogs temperament. On and on it goes.:crazy:


fast, not sure what your problem with me is, but I love SchH and the commitment I have while training w/ my dog is* fun*!
Wow,_ maybe you should have said nothing_, does that make you feel worthy to read that when it is directed back to you? Pretty harsh comment. 
What was the BS that I posted?

I think if you are training with a competitive group then you should do as they do, not just go there for the "fun" because the club really won't want to waste time w/ someone who is showing up sporadically and not committing to steady development of their dog. You need to stay consistant with what you are working on or you won't see progress...maybe that is why you posted this statement ?


> i think that the most discouraging thing to new handlers is a lack of progress.


The OP will see this after visiting a few clubs a few times. It isn't something you just go to now and then for "fun".


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Ooops didn't mean this to cause bad feelings anywhere. :blush:


I hope I didn't come across as only wanting to take my dog for 'fun' and waste the clubs time.

I have 2 GSD's, one is a rescue showline and I wouldn't even take him along for an evaluation because despite being having being chosen for a prison dog programme in the UK (but washed out due to lameness) I know he wouldn't have what it takes. He is far too nervy, bless him. :wub:

Although I didn't buy Kofi as a Sch prospect, both his sire and grand sire (and other relatives) have been in the WUSV team, and his sire is a police dog stud in the UK, so I hopefully I don't look like I have an inappropriate pedigree. :wild:

Although, I totally understand that just because his genetics say that he should be suitable it doesn't mean he will be. :laugh:

I would love to title him, and I would be very committed, I train every day at home anyway, but I am realistic in that as a novice handler with a novice dog, I am not expecting to go that far (as in top competitions). So I would probably be happier at a club that didn't focus soley on world level competitors. Also as i'm in Europe, I wonder if the clubs vary a bit? Don't really know much about it (yet).


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

onyx'girl said:


> fast, not sure what your problem with me is,...


 I don't have a problem with you. I don't know you, but I assume you are a lovely person. I have a problem with what you said and the general tone of your posts on this thread. First off let's stop with the BS and call a spade a spade. When you say a "competitive club" in essence you are saying more skilled. And "less competitive" is just a euphemism for less skilled.


You make it seem as if every club with skilled members is not welcoming to newcomers. And that by starting with a skilled club you are putting your dog at risk. This is wrong and unfair to skilled clubs, Wolfspirit and every newcomer that happens to read that tripe. 


Now you see from Wolfspirit's post that she is committed to titling her dog and trains every day. She does not want to "stop in now and then" to play with her dog. (Where did you get that idea anyway? Projecting perhaps?) I train at a very good club and she sounds like exactly the type of people that we want in our club. So what if either she or the dog might lack the talent to compete at a high level? All we want to see at my club is that everyone, with two legs or four, is out there performing at the highest level THEY are capable of. And how would she know if her dog could be a top level dog if she's training at a low level club? She and her dog may very well be the next national champion. I have known several first time handlers that have done very well at the national and world level. But you can't do that at most lower level clubs. If your kid comes to you with an acceptance letter from an ivy league school do you tell them they should go to the local JC?


Further, most of the handlers that are training at a high level or been in the sport for a long time love to teach newcomers. I know from personal experience that when you teach someone about the sport and they go on to title their dog it feels as good if not better than when you title one of your own. Ever notice how much some of the more experienced members (Chris, Anne, Lisa, etc) of this forum post? They do that because they like the fulfillment that teaching brings. Do you think that type of sprit only lives behind a keyboard? 


Wolfsprit my suggestion to you and every other person that is interested in the sport. Start with the best club that you can join. If your personality fits with the other club members stay there. If things don't work out at that club then go to the second best club you can join. Keep doing this till you find a place you fit in.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Fast, I'm sorry you read all that into my posts. It isn't what I meant at all, and not sure where you got all those ideas from.
This post from Wolfspirit is where my opinion came from:


> I'm not looking to compete or anything serious, just want to do something with him.


Now I do see from her last post that she does have goals in SchH with Kofi.
I hope their journey is fun and successful!

Not sure where you read into what I was typing that clubs don't accept newcomers or are willing to help...I never ever said that at all! You are the one comparing low/high level clubs, not me. Some clubs are better matches and it is good to visit a few to get a feel for the dynamics. 
My point I was trying to make was foundation takes time and it is best to go slow rather than push...(maybe the progress is slow, but certainly not discouraging) its harder to fix something than get it right the first time.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Fast, I'm sorry you read all that into my posts. It isn't what I meant at all, and not sure where you got all those ideas from.
> This post from Wolfspirit is where my opinion came from:
> 
> Now I do see from her last post that she does have goals in SchH with Kofi.
> ...


Onyx girl, I am sorry that my part about the competing was so confusing. I am new to this and don't know the correct terms. :blush: What I meant was that I would love to title Kofi but I'm not looking to compete nationally or at world level. Sorry for not being clear.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am sorry that your thread took the turn it did, my apologies. I wish you happy training with Kofi!
I'm not looking to compete nationally or world level either. It costs enough(time and money) to just train with my local group. Huge life commitment to go further, and my handling skills will never get to that point!


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Thought I would update..

Just got back from training, it was fun, as soon as the guy came towards us with the bite roll Kofi seemed to recognise the game and lit up straight away, barking and lunging. The guy said he was good, although we need to work on his possessiveness as after he won the tug, he lost interest after a few seconds the first few times. Although on the second round he was fighting much harder and really growling as he tugged and then after he won it, he carried it back to the car (very proudly with his tail up and swaggering :wub: )

He seemed to enjoy it which is fab and so we are going again Saturday, training is 2 x a week, sometimes 3. And the other good news is that my rescue gets to come too and use the enclosed agility area for free.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sounds like you and Kofi will enjoy your new addiction!
And lucky to be able to bring your other one too, nice bonus!


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## newlifecowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

wolfspirit have fun with it! And I say if one person says a dog won't do ScH well another will, its all opinion  LOL no one thought that my Blue Heeler would be a suitable dog for ScH....guess what ? This summer we are going for ScH1. Whatever your goals in ScH, have fun, enjoy it, and when you see the happiness your dog has, it makes it ALL worth it!


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