# Legitimate use of Shock Collars? My experience..



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Friends, this comes from Oz (Australia). This is a bit of help, either for you or correction for me, but based on personal experience. I don't even know if they are legal in America, there is a lot of backlash on their use, but I have found them legitimate in a few areas. NOTE, before you fire up at me I am against them but have found them a life saver for a few areas. I want to trend toward a confident well socialized but somewhat personal protection dog. I am afraid it might harm the confidence using it on a 1-2 year old puppy, so I am not likely to use it. *Please tell me the alternatives to what I describe.. *

Starting with horses, I had to paddock four together a long time ago not on my own property, and one was fat and a bully. He would go through electric fence tape. I could not isolate him. He would go to his own hay, stretch waaay out and pee all over it, then go beat up on someone else to steal their hay. Afterward, he would go (disgusting) and eat is pi$$ed on hay. Solution was my first experiment with shock collars. After he wore it for a few days and forgot about it: When he would go to bully others, he got a blast, (remote viewing shock collar), and it soon ended his aggression. It only took a few reminders once or twice a year and he was cured, a great trail horse, just cured of being a bully for food. It was as if he learned that other horses packed a punch and when he wheeled around to kick them something BIT THE HECK OUT OF HIM.. I also have had limited success with cribbing and wind sucking, but it takes too much patience watching. They soon learn that activity comes with an uncomfortable JOLT and they will change their behavior. *Again, limited, very limited use and application.*

Now with Dogs, I am too far away for you to throw rocks at me.. heh he.. It is not a training tool, not to be used very often, except to save the dogs life. One legitimate use I have found IMO is at work, truck and transport and forklifts, when they are laying down in the way and a vehicle comes within about a Metre, if they get a JOLT they soon learn cars BITE. I even baited them up stepping off a curb and when a car came within about a meter, something BIT THE HECK OUT OF THEM.. Now I have not had much success in getting them to look for cars any other way. Maybe I lacked skill or patience, OK... This worked right away, they simply learned vehicles could BITE THE HECK OUT OF THEM.. Maybe only six sessions over a week and a reminder once a month for a couple of months, and their behavior was changed as it was a hazard to them *Laying around, they soon learned to get up and out of the way if ANY vehicle was moving in their direction.* 

And the same for stepping off a curb, right away when they learned cars BITE, they would look both directions before crossing the road, and not step out in front of traffic.

Please tell me a better way to train them to stay out of the way of vehicle??? I lost a dog as a kid, only an instant off a lead, he was distracted and ran out in front of a truck without looking before I could react.

The other application was against poison bait. I would put a variety of burger, sausage, bacon at different times. Dog out, go for it, get a mild jolt, and would actually drop it out of his mouth. It only took a few times and his reaction to bait was to alert bark at it, at about a metre, until I came out to collect it and praise him, take him in the house and give him another type of treat. Again this could take a reminder once or twice a year...

Tell me a better way? I do not want to use the shock collar any more, as I am convinced it could have harmful side effects. These are two areas I feel the shock collar could SAVE the dogs life. 

I wait for your answers with an open mind.... Car training, and bait training, I have not had much success without the shock collar. Maybe I am just not patient or expecting too much too soon.. I have a new GSD pup coming in mid January and want to get it right... 

lone Ranger, out on the "Last Frontier" with GSDs (2) and horses (many)... Living "Dances With Wolves" as much as I can...


----------



## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you can train your dog not to step off the curb without an
e-collar. you can train your dog not to eat off the ground
or out of a strangers hand without an e-collar.


----------



## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

This is a follow-up on your training question concerning your last PPD post? 
Or for just training in general?

Perfecting your dog's recall with a good trainer ( _for you and the dog_) is the best option. 
In addition to other obedience commands, of course.

JMO.  Kat


----------



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> you can train your dog not to step off the curb without an
> e-collar. you can train your dog not to eat off the ground
> or out of a strangers hand without an e-collar.


Best GSD I saw as a kid, had bait thrown in the yard (we think).. What a terrible tragedy. I am not sure how to train a dog left alone in a yard, maybe bored, not to eventually eat nice tasty treat *when you are not around*, except by e-collar.. If he learns it will BITE THE HECK out of him, he instinctively will ignore it..

Secondly, maybe stepping off a curb with me, that is ok, but again not sure how you would get them watching out in a transport type situation for moving vehicles or forklifts headed their direction. When they are alone, off a lead, it is easy for them to just not be wary unless they have been BITTEN by vehicles..

Yes I am guilty, but the e-collar was short and effective for both. *Not meaning to argue here, just looking for an effective alternative to both...* If it exists, I do not know it, hence why I have posted...


----------



## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

This reminds me of the way they train dogs to avoid snakes. Isn't it to also get the dog to not want to be near it through some pain, though I'm not sure of the training details. I think for your purpose, I understand why you'd use it the way you do. Would be interested too of others feedback on your post.


----------



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Wow Bear, this is shaping up to be a cool Thread. I never thought of snakes, but that is only because on the few times in ten years my GSDs baled one up, (Australian for rounding up, holding/containing one up) they just danced all around barking at it instinctively staying out of range. Snakes here in Oz are about the worst in the world, but both my GSDs just danced around out range barking. Maybe that is because of the way I reacted as they do not "go Bush" without me.. I was Yelling / Screaming in terror BACK, BACK that means get back out of the way. Maybe it was instinctive on their part or just my extreme reaction. On foot or on a horse, I would go bezerk if they baled up a snake.. So they stayed out of range..

Good thought for an e-collar though, if someone had a dog that wanted to attack the snake.. They are deadlier than Cobras here... Mind you, very few deaths, maybe less than Shark attacks, which is also very rare.. 

Good Thought there Bear..


----------



## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Is it likely that your dog will encounter poisoned bait? Is your dog off leash around moving vehicles? Is it possible to avoid the dog getting into those situations?

There are other ways to use the e-collar, you can study the methods of Lou Castle.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Obviously they train dogs to do or not do these things; look both ways before stepping off a curb; or they'd not be using dogs as seeing eye dogs.
And I KNOW they don't employ e-collars in Seeing eye dog training...


----------



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

RebelGSD said:


> Is it likely that your dog will encounter poisoned bait? Is your dog off leash around moving vehicles? Is it possible to avoid the dog getting into those situations?.


Hi Rebel, nice sentiment, but no... There is Dingo Bait and other problems out Bush, Panadol even used (deadly for dogs) for burglaries and such. And I am in the Transport type game with Bushtracker and the dog will be with me 24/7.. Further bait and moving vehicles is only a one shot chance, and outcome is permanent.. so no... But thank you for the sentiment..

*****************************

*msvette,* I agree about stepping off the curb, I can see that, thank you... But around big yards like my Factory buildings, vehicles driving in and out, dog with me 24/7, forklifts running, chasing a ball and off the lead it is a little more complex unless the dog learns they can BITE THE HECK out of him with an e-collar, and looks out for them. It is an association thing. 

Sadly, I lost a dog about 40 years ago on a construction site innocently in my stupid youth. The second dog of two I have lost to vehicles. He used to trot along side the truck when I was moving. Something fell and startled him jumping to the side and a wheel picked him up. Sorry, one of those tragedies in life.

Msvette, the e-collar training makes them watch out for anything vehicular headed their direction. Even out on my horse property my dogs follow, but do not get in front of mowers, tractors, or quad bikes. They are wary of anything vehicular moving towards them, and will only trot along behind. I do not know how to handle that training without the e-collar association to the moving vehicle can BITE them if allowed to get too close.. So they move out of the way and are watching out.. Again, not arguing, I am looking for an alternative to the e-collar, but not sure of one...

Kind regards from OZ. Thursday here, now 3:30 PM across the International Dateline, late Wednesday night your time... Good night to you..


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If it's a matter of life and death, I think a shock collar can be humanely used as an aversion-only tool.

Rattlesnake (or any snake) training, for example. If the dog is a hunting or stock dog, working off leash and often out of sight of the handler, aversion training is the way to go. I would much rather shock my dogs a few times than have them bitten by a snake. 

Chasing deer, harassing livestock, chasing moose, chasing pigs, chasing cars, chasing porcupines- also dangerous, also most easily solved with some e-collar aversion work. Not to say a positive-only trained "leave it" or recall wouldn't work for many dogs- but for some dogs the self-reward of chasing just overcomes all the positive training. Also, a dog can get into trouble with a porcupine or snake or start a chase before you can give a command. An e-collar is a decent alternative to keeping a dog on leash all the time otherwise.

I hadn't thought about using the e-collar to teach the dog that vehicles are dangerous. It seems to be a safe and simple way to get that message across. Especially so that the dogs can enjoy coming to work with you and not be in the way or be in danger. Hey- if it works for you, and you haven't seen any issues with the training, great. 

I do wonder how they teach seeing-eye dogs to avoid traffic. My initial thoughts are that seeing-eye dogs are chosen with specific temperaments in mind- that is, low prey drive, low reactivity, easily trainable, willing to please, low thresholds. I could be wrong, but that type of dog may be fairly easy to train to be car savvy. With a lot of repeated road crossings where the dog is trained to look both ways and only go when cars are not coming- the dog must be able to "get" it. I think most of us don't have the proper dog for the job of seeing-eye, nor the expertise to train this. Lots of dogs bred for it also fail out of the program.

I can easily teach my dogs to sit automatically at the curb and wait until I say "go" but I wouldn't trust them to watch for cars. I'd like to try to train this. Interesting discussion.

As a side note, when I was a kid our cats just were allowed to wander. Sadly, we had quite a few get killed by cars crossing the road. But the ones that figured it out, did look both ways before crossing- I saw one of our most savvy cats do this. If the cats made it past 1 year old or so, they lived to die of natural causes. I'm not sure what made these cats different. Whether they had a really close call, were just naturally wary, or were smart enough to see the danger. Regardless, any future cats my parents have will be indoor-only because there is no way to know which cat will get it and which won't. I suppose you could e-collar train a cat to avoid cars... who knows? 

I think it's a smart idea to teach our pets that vehicles are dangerous. Done right, it seems like something every dog or cat should know. An e-collar seems like a simple way to do this- for dogs anyway, but I'm really interested in other methods people might use.


----------



## bianca (Mar 28, 2010)

Perhaps have a look at this site 

Home

I am not against them and even have one (heaven forbid).


----------



## Mooch (May 23, 2012)

Haha Bianca don't use it out in public here in Vic  they are restricted use *sigh*


----------



## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

bianca said:


> Perhaps have a look at this site
> 
> Home
> 
> I am not against them and even have one (heaven forbid).


Yes this is a good site filled with info. Right now I am still working on our foundation. Pretty soon I will be getting an e collar for advanced training. I do not have a problem with using e collars. I actually went to a store and tested a collar out on myself to see exactly what it did and how it felt.


----------



## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

KayleeGSD said:


> I actually went to a store and tested a collar out on myself to see exactly what it did and how it felt.


I did the same and tried several levels before I put it on my dog. 

I'm curious how other dogs react initially then later to the ecollar. Maybe I should start a separate thread on it. At the beginning, it depressed my dog greatly when I just buzzed her (no zap, just a paging feature). She was sad for couple hours, wouldn't take treats. After she got over that one time, she is turning out to have quite a threshold for electricity and it can even get her more excited when she is already in an excited state. Now that she gets it, she does well on it. It's more like a signal to her of what I want enforced at a long distance - since she thought long distance equals no need to listen to me. She is still happy as a clam on her off leash hikes - where I use it mostly. The experience has been positive so far. I just started on it.


----------



## Kdrees (Nov 25, 2012)

We got one too just because my guy can be very difficult to snap him out of a moment - like chasing deer. We only use it at the lowest possible setting to get his attention - which at this point is level 2.... he is a bit of a wimp. It's not something that we use often but usually when we are out and about on the ATV running with him and he gets distracted.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have had the high powered stim fail on a very driven dog. It can also cause the dog to redirect aggression on something else or to completely loose it and run away/freak out. I was stupid and got lucky that it simply did not really phase her. Actually she also took the full hit of a cattle fence and other than twitching a second, continued her pursuit.

I went to Lou Castle's approach for crittering which is VERY LOW stim and it worked much better and with longer duration. Sure, a powerful aversive has a lasting memory but can backfire and can undo some of the dogs natural confidence if it is effective.

I learned my lesson with Beau and exposed him to farm animals from a very young age and he learned that they were not particularly interesting. Did not have to pull out the ecollar.


----------



## GoSailGo (Sep 15, 2012)

This is really interesting I've never even heard of shock collars for horses. It would probably come in really handy to get a herd bully under control. Hierarchy is all well and good, unless someone isn't getting enough food or getting the crud kicked out of him. 

As for dogs, I had a friend who tried everything but couldn't get a consistent recall from her dog. She was working with a trainer and her last effort was to use an e-collar. I never saw any of the process, as I live very far away and only see them about twice a year...all I know is that the next time I saw the dog a few months later, she came when called and was really good about everything. So it worked for my friend. I definitely think e-collars have their uses and I'm not about to condemn them just because I've never used one before.


----------



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I have no problem with e-collars. At this time I don't feel the need to use them but am open to their correct usage when appropriate. We have club members that use them with fantastic success and we also have club members who over use them (IMO).


----------



## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

GoSailGo said:


> This is really interesting I've never even heard of shock collars for horses. It would probably come in really handy to get a herd bully under control. Hierarchy is all well and good, unless someone isn't getting enough food or getting the crud kicked out of him.
> 
> As for dogs, I had a friend who tried everything but couldn't get a consistent recall from her dog. She was working with a trainer and her last effort was to use an e-collar. I never saw any of the process, as I live very far away and only see them about twice a year...all I know is that the next time I saw the dog a few months later, she came when called and was really good about everything. So it worked for my friend. I definitely think e-collars have their uses and I'm not about to condemn them just because I've never used one before.


We board our horse with a friend. She's got 3 other horses & 1 is a Classic Snot. Food aggressive. Pushy. When we first took Bud there, this horse would attempt to ram him. Bud would stare at him like he was nuts - Bud's twice his size. He'd shrug off the horse, to no avail - the other guy kept coming back. She finally resorted to "electric teaching/training". Within a month, the other horse was under control & - to my knowledge - has not rammed Bud since. A Clydesdale, Bud is huge. But a Gentle Ben. This other horse had the dominant personality & chose to display it nastily. It was stopped with the introduction of e-sources.

I never thought I'd even conSIDer using a shock collar on a dog. Understanding that horses are different from dogs, I can see where an e-collar would be very useful (using the RIGHT methods, aka Lou Castle) with dogs.

As soon as we can, we're going to purchase 1 for Ziva. After 2 years & lots of blunders (from trainers & then from us), I am quite tired of some of her antics. And - to be honest - most of our local trainers stink. Charge huge $$, but that's all they do. I won't put her in a stranger's hands again. Sgt. Castle's methods make sense to me & his ways are not abusive.

Not everyone has a GSD who's easy to train. Or mellow. Some dogs - whether it be breeding or upbringing - are difficult. The e-collar is a tool to achieve obedience, especially for the "hard to reach" dog. It can mean the difference between keeping a dog or putting it down. Given those alternatives, I'll choose the e-collar any day.


----------



## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

KayleeGSD said:


> Yes this is a good site filled with info. Right now I am still working on our foundation. Pretty soon I will be getting an e collar for advanced training. I do not have a problem with using e collars. I actually went to a store and tested a collar out on myself to see exactly what it did and how it felt.


Doesn't hurt at all... Even on the highest setting... 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

jocoyn said:


> I went to Lou Castle's approach for crittering which is VERY LOW stim and it worked much better and with longer duration. Sure, a powerful aversive has a lasting memory but can backfire and can undo some of the dogs natural confidence if it is effective.


That is interesting. I just read it. Game Chasing (Crittering)

Wonder where I can rent a deer around here.

I've been doing it a bit differently. If I can call her off before the chase, I don't correct. If she doesn't heed, then I correct. Lou's way seems like I should make it unpleasant period, for her to even consider it. That to me is changing how the dog think completely about critters. Which... I feel is something I've to process a bit more.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I used small furry farm animals. Goats are pretty similar to deer. SHe generalized quite well and you could see the first part of the sequence going through he should would still stop but break it off herself before she went into the stare part of the sequence even with no collar on.


----------



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Muskeg, Good morning in Australia on Friday, Thursday night to you..

You and others have come through with some very thoughtful and responsible intelligent followthrough on this Thread... I thought with all the Left Wing trend these days I would get some real blasts but no, very nice.. On my specific Lifestyle issues, per the way I have described them, with the trucks and traffic at my Factories, and the bait issue for instance Fox and wild dog/dingo poison called 1080 is so strong that one nibble and they are gone, I think prudent use of the shock collar might be near the only and best way to handle these live threatening situations.. Further, with You and Bear, I think the snake issues is also a good one that is hard to train against... Maybe even chasing livestock as a kick from a Bull is deadly..

Mind you I am just lucky in how my two GSDs turned out with snakes, OR they immediately learned from my hysterical screaming response that this was something really dangerous. I really don't know which it is, instinctive snake response that I have seen in other dogs, or a reaction to me their Alpha, going off my head screaming BACK! BACK! I use that back command all the time when they are just in the way, I am coming through with arms full, or swing a tool or chainsaw or something dangerous. Maybe my hysterical behavior combined with that BACK! command has impressed them.

Anyway, interestingly a couple of you GSD Owners have chimed in with my fear: That the E-collar as you call it, could undermine a Dogs confidence... Hmmmmm... By PM I have gotten Pro, or near Pro referrals to a Lou Castle training link that does this taining wih mild stimulation... That middle ground is possibly the way to go. Not a BLAST, just a mild uncomfortable stimulation in response to the bad behavior. 

In my case the moving vehicular problems at work everyday could be life threatening if the Dog is not on constant alert watching out for them.. Cars or moving vehicles, backing trailers, forklifts, have an uncomfortable BITE situation associated with them and the dog will learn to avoid them. Maybe the bait issue as to be stepped up, so the good smelling attraction does not overpower the adversion mild shock... And certainly a medium JOLT when coming too close to a snake would be the best deterrent in my mind.. I think prudent use may be the answer.. 

Fellow Aussies, I go bush a lot, and 1080 is a real and viscious hazard and two day horrible death I hear. Even in civilization, I was competing horses with the NRHA at Horsley Park west of Sydney, and after walking my dogs loose all over the back bush part of HP, to my horror I ran across 1080 bait warnings.. For you Americans that might question my need for this bait thing, it is not just about pro-burglary or dog hater poisons, we also have Government poison baits as Foxes for instance devastate the farmers in lambing season. One fox, just for instincts, has been know to kill 30-40 lambs in one night in the southern part of Oz... Bait proofing can be a serious issue, not just in town to a jealous or anti-dog or burgular sort, but for us in Oz a real issue out in the Bush...

Kind regards, and thanks for the friendly responses an I would still like any training techniques anyone can offer for my specific problems, that would negate the use of the shock-collar...

lone Ranger, living "Dances With Wolves" out on the Last Frontier of Australia, GSDs and Horses rule..


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't have much to add, but if this were me living where there is a high likelihood my dogs could encounter poisonous bait- I would not use Lou Castle's low-stim method (although his training protocols are highly recommended for other behaviors) and would simply blast the dog at a fairly high jolt- enough for a yelp- when he/she even thinks about sniffing or eating food on the ground. I would not say a command, I would act like I didn't know what happened. I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand. I would never throw treats on the ground for them and would not allow them to eat treats that fell on the ground.

This is life and death. It's something the dogs are almost bound to encounter given your lifestyle. You may not always be there to tell the dog to leave it or to come or whatever. Dogs can eat something in an instant.

In the old days, the "dumb" dogs would simply not survive very long. The smart ones, or the ones that had a close and non deadly encounter with cars or bait _may_ learn to leave it alone. You are creating that "close" encounter without the actual risk by using the e-collar to correct. 

This is all just my opinion, and only my opinion. I would not normally advocate shocking a dog at a high level unless the dogs was trained and understood corrections but here you want the shock to be "coming" from the food or car or snake.


----------



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

All good Muskeg,

I want to add one clarification. When I baited up the yard, I stood peeking out from a hidden curtain window. The JOLT came from the bait when he went to pick it up. It is very important that I stayed totally hidden. I started with a good jolt and he actually dropped the bait out of his mouth.. After maybe half dozen sessions the end product was him barking at it about a meter in ALARM function until I came out. 

The shock never comes from you, it has to come from the object you are adversion training to.. A random bait if touched BITES THE HECK OUT OF YOU!!!! Then they learn it is naturally to be avoided... It has been many years, but I think I used a med-high stimulation to get a bit of a yelp out of him.

*I don't know another way*, and only worried about undermining personal confidence in my new pup coming. But even that is better than dead..  I will only do it at one to two years old.. *I am still looking for a better way... /was hoping someone could tell a training regime to accomplish it without the e-collar...* All the Training types I have seen, worked with the Handler present, they soon learned not to touch it.. But when on their own and the Handler gone? It is as if they thought it must be OK...

BTW, am going to Alaska next year in July for my 61st Birthday to try Trophy Rainbow Trout and Salmon fishing... Never done fly fishing. Catch and release program, guided, expensive but what the heck, 5 days in the remote rivers. Your scenery should be so devastatingly beautiful, the fish will not matter much  A week at Cheyenne Frontier Days in Wyoming, then up to Alaska. Only wish my new pup could come..  The wolves in the wild are what caught me up into GSDs... "Dances With Wolves" ever since then I am hung up. I am so into them, I am going to Yellowstone in January for 10 days, 2 and a half weeks from Australia all up, to go into the snow bound and closed park by SnowCat to see the wolf packs in action.. 98 Wolves monitored in the park, in ten packs, and pretty much the only time you can see them is around the thermal events where the animals gather in dead of winter. Something like 300 kills a year, last count 90% elk (they have good taste), 13 Bison, dozen or so deer, and odd other like a coyote... It will be a huge experience even if I do not get too close to the wolves. Four days by Snowcat looking, four days by snowmobile, two days open to learn cross country skiing... You must see a lot of them living in Alaska.... !!!!!!!

Best regards from Australia, only dingos and foxes, a few deer, tons of rabbits, and millions of giant hoppers, heh he...


----------



## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Muskeg said:


> I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand.


You want to be careful with teaching a dog to only eat from your hand. What if something happens to you and you have to rely on someone else to care for the dog? They might just starve themselves to death.

Eating only from their bowl is fine.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Bear L said:


> That is interesting. I just read it. Game Chasing (Crittering)
> 
> Wonder where I can rent a deer around here.
> 
> I've been doing it a bit differently. If I can call her off before the chase, I don't correct. If she doesn't heed, then I correct. Lou's way seems like I should make it unpleasant period, for her to even consider it. That to me is changing how the dog think completely about critters. Which... I feel is something I've to process a bit more.


First, thanks to those who have mentioned my name, methods and linked to my site. I truly appreciate it. 

Bear L I'd suggest that you try using a cat first. They've much easier to get than deer and many dogs will generalize to the deer if you use the cat. Some dogs might need a button press or two, if they come across a deer, but that takes care of most of them. BUT if you DO need a deer (It's very rare that a dog needs one) do a search on Google for "deer farm California" and several of them will come up. These are usually farms where they raise deer for venison for the commercial market. Often these places have a petting zoo and, if you explain what you need and tell them that they'll probably be saving a wild deer's life, they'll help out, for a fee of course. I’m told that a few SAR groups do this annually. 

Around this time of year, in a few weeks actually, some shopping centers will have "Santa's reindeer" in their parking lots and that's another place you might be able to rent a deer. 

What are you thinking about regarding how it changes how a dog views critters?


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Muskeg said:


> I don't have much to add, but if this were me living where there is a high likelihood my dogs could encounter poisonous bait- I would not use Lou Castle's low-stim method (although his training protocols are highly recommended for other behaviors) and would simply blast the dog at a fairly high jolt- enough for a yelp- when he/she even thinks about sniffing or eating food on the ground. I would not say a command, I would act like I didn't know what happened. I would train my dogs to only eat food in their bowl or that I give to them by hand. I would never throw treats on the ground for them and would not allow them to eat treats that fell on the ground.


I don't suggest that anyone use low stim methods for poison proofing. I think that the _actual _need for this is far less than the _perceived _ need. This kind of work need the highest level that an Ecollar has, in fact, I'd recommend going to a fence charger for the work, they're much more powerful. Also, you need to constantly leave food bait on live wires scattered around the yard, changing their location and the type of bait regularly. 

And even then, a hungry dog may decide to take the chance. It's notable that the dogs that guard POTUS are not poison proofed.


----------



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Wow Lou, on this site.. I have already visited yours, you come highly recommended.. I may be looking into some training help from you when the pup is about a year old...

Never thought of the fence charger. and I have several battery operated ones for horses but I am afraid they might be too strong. My dogs soon learn the wire fences bite them in the bum. They start out going under the wire, but soon are bit by the tail up!! Now after a few big yelps they only go throught the bars of the gates, never under the wire fences. They will actually run down to a gate and come back the other side...

Not sure how I go with burying the fence charge wire, it would have to be moved to different locations and I am still concerned about their experience leading to a lack of confidence? *You have feelings about that and what you would do?*

Kind regards from Australia


----------



## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> Bear L I'd suggest that you try using a cat first. They've much easier to get than deer and many dogs will generalize to the deer if you use the cat.
> 
> What are you thinking about regarding how it changes how a dog views critters?


Does that mean dogs that live with cats won't chase wildlife? 

My concern is ... not sure.... just want to think it thru since it involves my dog changing her perception about things. Before I just want her perception to be listening to whatever I say, so if I say no chase or abandon chase, she must comply. Your way, correct me freely if I'm stating it wrong, is teaching the dog to be fearful to chase. Fear can be good since it's necessary for survival but my dog is genetically weak nerved already so I try to grow her confidence wherever I can thus am more cautious about this type of perception change. Advise where my logic is flawed.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I used Lou's way for stopping my dog from chasing game and I don't think there was any fear involved, unlike who knows what is going on with the high stim method. 

The stim was at a very low level. After a couple of sessions with a chicken and a goat, it broke her concentration and the whole chase sequence before it started. Later she would still sense a prey animal in the woods [and yes, you learn to read the dog it is different than sensing another predator!] and you could see the interest but she would shut herself off before making a decision to chase. Now she did not have any nerve issues (at least that I knew about, she was a little DA) and Lou needs to address that, but what I saw was a dog who was very clear headed and making the right decision without my input.

I think they learn to accept the family cat etc. {well she was so bad I still did not trust her with them unless I was right there - no sense tempting the fates} and anything in the family is still different than anything "out there"


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

lone Ranger said:


> Never thought of the fence charger. and I have several battery operated ones for horses but I am afraid they might be too strong.


I can guarantee that they'll hurt like heck! But that's the idea behind the training. Since you're working against a drive and the cost of a mistake, is the dog's life, you have to make a lasting impression at the outset and throughout the dog's life. Remember though, that I strongly recommend AGAINST doing this sort of training for several reasons. One is that it hurts the dogs, and I hate doing that. I will do so to save a life, but the threat from this kind of danger is more imagined than real. That doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, just that it's much more rare than real. 



lone Ranger said:


> Not sure how I go with burying the fence charge wire, it would have to be moved to different locations and I am still concerned about their experience leading to a lack of confidence? *You have feelings about that and what you would do?*


You only need to bury the wire for about the last 5' of it's length. You only want the end sticking up enough to avoid contact with any vegetation so it doesn’t short out. Then put a piece of food on it so that it won't fall off or be knocked off by the wind or the dog running by and hitting it. If it's off the wire, and the dog gets it, he'll gamble for the rest of his life, getting shocked needlessly because you messed up the training. IT ONLY TAKES ONE ERROR TO MAKE YOUR DOG A GAMBLER! Another reason that I don't recommend this kind of training. 

Since the dog can clearly make the association between his action and the shock, he knows what causes it, and how to avoid it, and it doesn't affect their confidence. That happens when the stim seems to be random and the dog doesn't know what caused, of how to make it stop.


----------



## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Bear L said:


> Does that mean dogs that live with cats won't chase wildlife?


I WISH! Lol. No, unfortunately having a non-prey cat in the home, has nothing to do with it. Most dogs, especially if the animal is introduced when the dog is a puppy, will accept other family animals. But they usually don't generalize to outside cats or other animals. 



Bear L said:


> My concern is ... not sure.... just want to think it thru since it involves my dog changing her perception about things. Before I just want her perception to be listening to whatever I say, so if I say no chase or abandon chase, she must comply. Your way, correct me freely if I'm stating it wrong, is teaching the dog to be fearful to chase.


I’m hereby correcting you. lol. If this was done at high levels of stim it WOULD create a fear of the chase and probably of the prey animal as well. Going back to the snake proofing model, there you want (and when it's done properly, you get) a dog that is AFRAID of the snake because he "bites" from a distance. But using low level stim the dogs don't become afraid of either the chase or the prey animal. In the snake model, you want the dog to RUN LIKE HECK from a snake. The cost of not doing so can be a slow agonizing death. In the crittering model you just want the dog not to start the chase. 

Typically, the dogs see the prey animal and go right back to whatever they were doing. There's no avoidance with this system. 

The method was developed to stop police dogs from chasing cats during yard-to-yard searches. If it resulted in the dogs fearing the cats, they might refuse to go into back yards where cat odor was present. In the urban environment, that's problaby just about every back yard out there. Either a cat lives there or has wandered through in the past several hours. WORSE, the dog might go into the back yard, and LOOK LIKE he was searching, fooling his handler and perhaps missing a crook that was hiding there, because he was so distracted by the chance of getting slammed by a shock.


----------

