# Probability of "non-papered" GSD success in IPO?



## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Does anyone have anecdotes regarding GSDs doing well at IPO despite having no "papers" and no known IPO-titled ancestors? 

There's a Schutzhund club near me and I thought this would be a great activity for a puppy I plan to get soon (about 4 weeks from now), but the club member I talked to seemed discouraging when I used the phrase "neighbor's puppies". He felt that a dog with titled parents would be more successful, and I agree that chances for success are probably better. BUT...

I can't quite get to a place where I spend at least $1500 on a puppy yet without knowing if_ I'LL_ enjoy IPO training and can be a decent trainer. 

I've read schutzhund books, been all over this and other forums/websites, and there's plenty of conflicting info. 

What would some of you say are good indicators of a puppy's/young dog's penchant for IPO? I'll try to evaluate the pup's characteristics as best I can and have fun with him/her no matter what, but it would be nice to have the GSD do what he was intended for!

Thanks!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Unless your dog came from a breeder that focuses on working ability, not many random dogs from random breedings will do well in IPO. 

The club member probably didn't want to get your hopes up too much, but most GSDs from "neighbor's" breedings, even people breeding their pet papered dogs with titles going back a couple of generations in the pedigree have probably lost their drives. 

It is so disappointing when your dog won't even bite a rag, tug with a helper, or just quits in the middle of obedience because they mentally couldn't handle staying focused. People join with really high hopes, and don't understand why their dog isn't like the other dogs in the club. 

That said, just about everyone in my club started with inappropriate dogs for the sport. I joined with a mixed breed I adopted from the pound! We did as much as we could, we both learned a lot, developed our bond, had a ball, and earned some titles - even getting High in Trial tracking. 

The exposure and hands on experience I got working my mixed breed gave me a good insight on what drives are, why they are important, and what I wanted in my next dog, which was a tremendous help in choosing the breeder for my next dog. 

So be ready to struggle and work hard and have fun. Who knows, your pup may surprise you!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have never done IPO, and the clubs around here would frown on less then royalty in their midst. But I have fostered several rescues that have gone on to train as detection dogs, patrol dogs, service dogs and SAR dogs. 
It just improves the odds if the pup has been purpose bred for something.
And as Castlemaid touched on, an awful lot of BYB dogs suffer from weak nerves. 
But, go for it. One never knows and I have found some shockingly good dogs in some unlikely places. Stay realistic and don't be disappointed in the dog. Think of all the learning you get to do.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

To be clear, what I'm getting from your reply, and from my short conversation with the IPO club guy is that:

*1)* If I have my heart set on doing Schutzhund and working toward getting an IPO title, my (and my dog's) chance of success is increased by getting a pup/dog bred from IPO titled parents.

*2)* If I decide to take a neighbor's GSD puppy, I can do the best I can to evaluate a pup at 8 weeks with regard to temperament/drives, but attaining IPOx is going to be less likely. Maybe just "un-possible". My focus then should be on gleaning what I can from tracking & obedience, maybe not being able to do much if any of the protection phase, and just be satisfied with that. 

Is this correct? My decision trees are growing new branches!

What I really do NOT want is a hyper, unhappy, fear-aggressive dog. If Schutzhund is not realistic or appropriate, what would be some alternative and comprehensive outlets for all the dog's drives? What would a good, constructive outlet for his aggressive drive be?

Thanks again!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Thanks for your reply! I'll read more about "weak nerves" and see what indicators to look for and avoid. 
Things would have been so much simpler if the neighbors had not so kindly thought of us and offered us a "free puppy"!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When you get the puppy, see if he'll chase a toy or ball and bite it when he catches it. Take him out in your yard and spread some food around on the grass and see if he'll sniff around hunting for it. Hold some food in a loose fist and see if you can guide him around with it and how determined he is to get it. There's no real guarantee of anything, I spent a lot of time with 3 different dogs that for different reasons were never going to pass all 3 phases, but there's always a chance for any dog to let you have some fun with it as long as the club is welcoming and willing to spend the time with you.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

The IPO Schutzhund population around here is a rough crowd. I bought a dog with all the lineage, but the clubs around here are WAY too extreme in the judgmental/perfection department that I have no interest in getting involved. If we don't do well, the attitude will be "tsk tsk, such a great dog wasted on an inexperienced handler who has no business owning that dog" I HOPE that is not the case everywhere, and I do see evidence from clubs in other parts of the country where they all seem supportive, like a family. I see mixed breeds happily participating and it seems like hobbyists that just want to have fun with their dog are warmly welcomed. Not here though. 

Since having 2 disabled kids AKA real problems that break your heart that you work hard at, I have ZERO tolerance for stuff that is suppose to be fun but is in fact back biting, in fighting, and all around catty (doggy- catty lol) 

If I were you I'd go start watching before you get the pup and see what they are like. They may have said what they said because they didn't want you to be disappointed, or they may have said it because they are snobs about dogs from untitled lineage. Did they punctuate it with "but it will be fun anyway and good for your relationship with your dog" ? Or did it have a "you won't belong here" air about it? That is what I would be assessing if I were you. 

If you do not get a good vibe, then look to other things that are not as rigid like agility maybe? Good luck


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Just for a little different perspective about clubs, its not exactly the same as paying for a service. Maybe its partly because as I get older, I value time quite a bit, so if others commit their time to me I'm pretty thankful. If they don't want to for any reason, I understand. They don't owe me anything. Maybe too, because I'm pretty thick skinned, I don't mind being criticized and I laugh along when I'm made fun of. If you want to work and train a dog in IPO or any other formal venue I've done, its helped me.


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## ploss (Jun 26, 2014)

If you are truly interested in doing IPO, think about the "long game". Both my husband and myself started out in IPO with rescue dogs...neither one set the world on fire, but we had so much fun with them and got hooked on the sport. My club is very welcoming to anyone interested, so there are clubs like that out there. 

Honestly, there is always a waiting list to get into the club but it isn't the quality of the dog that keeps people out, it is the person that determines if they are invited to visit and participate. People with good attitudes and work ethics, that show up on time or early, help set up, stay for the entire training and show a good faith effort are much more likely to be invited back. People with great dogs and crappy attitudes might be tolerated for a while, but never make it for the long haul.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Go try it out and have fun! Yes, there is more of a probability that the dog will excel when it has the lineage and comes from titled parents, etc, but there's never a guarantee. I have a WL female from a great pedigree (Czech border patrol lines and some really nice DDR dogs thrown in there) and she could have not cared less about the sleeve. Exceptional OB, but just didn't care about the rag and would rather chase a ball. So who knows, maybe your dog will have what it takes to be a good learning tool, like others in this thread have said. Maybe they don't set the world on fire, but they show up and give you good experience so you know what to look for next go 'round. 

Just have thick skin. In my experience with clubs, there is a lot of looking down on dogs that aren't from hardcore working lines. I currently have a WGSL dog that gets nitpicked and scowled at, but I don't care and I'll laugh along with the jokes. I know what he's got and that's all that matters. Be confident in what your dog can do, take the good advice and ignore the criticism when it's not helpful. Also be ready to do a lot of training on your own, at or outside the club and don't get discouraged when something doesn't happen right away. For instance, Wolf and I just started bitework the other day and he wouldn't bark at the rag or the dummy. Good intensity and would hang on like a bear when he bit (we were lifting him clear off the ground) but just wouldn't bark. It was discouraging right then and there, but I knew I could fix it because I know my dog and know how to encourage the behavior I want out of him. So I took him and did some one-on-one rag work and had him barking after one session. Just know your dog, have confidence in him, know his limits and have fun.

And I definitely agree with ploss, show that you're interested and willing to learn, and people will come around and the good ones will help you out.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Were those 3 different dogs from parents with IPO titles?
You've made a good point that I should be sure not to lose sight of: HAVE FUN!! Otherwise, neither I or the dog will get anywhere! What would be the point?
Thanks!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I like your attitude and I agree with you. You hit upon a concern of mine that I hadn't yet admitted to myself: that of receiving 'judgement' from club members that an otherwise good dog was "wasted" because I wasn't a great or even very good trainer!

I think I read people pretty well, even over the phone, and maybe the guy was busy, just home from work or tired, but he seemed discouraging. Don't know if he was being realistic and trying to dampen my expectations, but if it was me I'd have just said something like "Sure, start some training per (Book X), and bring your 'free puppy' out when he's x weeks/months old for an evaluation. Come see what we do in the meantime!" I didn't get a happy, welcoming vibe.

He invited me out to the practice field, but I got the same kind of impression you did. This club was focused on trials, and people with "regular" dogs and a non-competitive attitude were likely to take up too much time. 

I think I'll do as you suggest and look for alternative tracking/obedience/agility activities to be involved with. I like the idea of IPO but if I don't enjoy being around those IPO club people, I'd lose interest quickly.

Thanks for your helpful answer.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> Does anyone have anecdotes regarding GSDs doing well at IPO despite having no "papers" and no known IPO-titled ancestors?
> 
> There's a Schutzhund club near me and I thought this would be a great activity for a puppy I plan to get soon (about 4 weeks from now), but the club member I talked to seemed discouraging when I used the phrase "neighbor's puppies". He felt that a dog with titled parents would be more successful, and I agree that chances for success are probably better. BUT...
> 
> ...


The nice thing about Schutzhund as a recreational activity with your dog is there are 3 phases. Bitework is the part where dogs, even some GSDs, might not be suitable. However, tracking and obedience are the other two phases and I've even seen Labs and other atypical non-working breeds do it. There are Labs that can outtrack GSDs. So given a dedicated handler I can see a BYB GSD having a high probability of doing the tracking and obedience phases. The only way it won't work is if you have a BYB GSD that is so environmentally skittish and reactive that they just can't be off-leash in public. If the neighbor dog's parents are not like that, then you might be able to have fun with your dog,


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Time IS valuable. It's a finite commodity! As we get older and have less of it to spend, its value only increases. 

I totally accept that I'd be paying for trainers' time, helpers' time, chip in for equipment costs, "rent" etc. I also understand that their time spent with ME means less time spent with someone else. They don't know me or my level of commitment, and to be honest, I can't say that I do either. Not right now. It looks more and more like I should pursue other alternatives and maybe "stay in touch" with IPO to see if my interest increases, or if I stay satisfied with other training activities and dog sports.

Thanks for YOUR time answering my post!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I'll consider what you've said. In many aspects of my life I'm all about "the long game" and you're right about keeping that in the forefront.

I got a not-incredibly favorable impression of the club (chairman? head trainer? president?) based on just one phone call, and since the training field is only 15 minutes from my house, it won't be a big deal to go out there at least once or twice to either confirm my initial impressions, or gain a new, more complete perspective of the club and/or its members. If nothing else I'd stay in touch in case I discover that my dog could possibly do well (or well enough) at this sport, or if I decide I love IPO so much that I HAVE TO look for a more apt dog.

Thanks for responding!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

What you said has been very helpful too and reinforced the fact that great pedigrees don't always mean success at IPO! However, you kept your priorities straight and always continued working with your dog and encouraging him instead of giving up.

I think my path is becoming a little clearer. It looks like I should find the puppy out of the neighbors' litter that best suits my husband and me, find out what his strengths and weaknesses are, build the former and mitigate the latter, and just enjoy spending time with the dog!

Only one day being a member and look how helpful the forum is already!

Thanks!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Honestly, getting a good read on the pups' parents has been hard. The sisters who own the dogs are private people, which is a neutral statement. They're not weird or paranoid. They're nice and my husband and I like them. (Since their bitch had the pups, we have seen those neighbors more in the past several weeks than we have in the past 10 years!) 

I don't think that the dogs (there are 3) go out among the public much, but are taken for walks in the early morning through a nearby woody sandpit, and driven around in a truck. Otherwise, they hang out at the house on the small "farm" property. I figure that they bark an appropriate amount for GSDs that don't see "strange" people often. The bitch barked for a while when I came in to see the pups, but after a few minutes she settled down and even got up behind me in an armchair to lie down. She licked my hand when I offered it, and let me pet her some, but was otherwise aloof. This, from what I understand in all the reading I've done so far, is pretty much how they're supposed to be.

The sire and dam aren't litter-mates, and both are (I think) bicolor GSDs that the sisters wanted to breed because "(the sire and dam) love each other". So there's "free puppies" now and we were kindly offered one.

And I suppose that I could always fall back on the neighbor's promise to take back the pup if something just doesn't work out, though that would be hard to do.

I'll do my best with evaluating the pups for a good match, training positively and building the pup's confidence, and see how it goes. The forum looks like a great place for helpful advice, so in the meantime I'll work on MY skittishness  and try to relax and enjoy a new chapter of life...with a dog!

Thank you!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Because they love each other, Lol.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> Honestly, getting a good read on the pups' parents has been hard. The sisters who own the dogs are private people, which is a neutral statement. They're not weird or paranoid. They're nice and my husband and I like them. (Since their bitch had the pups, we have seen those neighbors more in the past several weeks than we have in the past 10 years!)
> 
> I don't think that the dogs (there are 3) go out among the public much, but are taken for walks in the early morning through a nearby woody sandpit, and driven around in a truck. Otherwise, they hang out at the house on the small "farm" property. I figure that they bark an appropriate amount for GSDs that don't see "strange" people often. The bitch barked for a while when I came in to see the pups, but after a few minutes she settled down and even got up behind me in an armchair to lie down. She licked my hand when I offered it, and let me pet her some, but was otherwise aloof. This, from what I understand in all the reading I've done so far, is pretty much how they're supposed to be.
> 
> ...


Are you sure you want to do this? Getting one of those puppies will just encourage the neighbor to keep breeding her 2 dogs because they love each other.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Under more ideal circumstances, you'd have the knowledge of the breeder who'd have been observing the litter for 7 weeks to help guide your pick. This isn't the route I'd go for a puppy, but if you're going to, see how much time you can spend observing the pups. Don't look for shy or sweet. Look for confident, curious, out going, happy to play with you. And in general what you see at 7 weeks is what they are.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> I like your attitude and I agree with you. You hit upon a concern of mine that I hadn't yet admitted to myself: that of receiving 'judgement' from club members that an otherwise good dog was "wasted" because I wasn't a great or even very good trainer!
> 
> I think I read people pretty well, even over the phone, and maybe the guy was busy, just home from work or tired, but he seemed discouraging. Don't know if he was being realistic and trying to dampen my expectations, but if it was me I'd have just said something like "Sure, start some training per (Book X), and bring your 'free puppy' out when he's x weeks/months old for an evaluation. Come see what we do in the meantime!" I didn't get a happy, welcoming vibe.
> 
> ...


I mean, I didn't want to put you off it, just give a perspective of what could be. Before I had a few curve balls thrown at me in life I did martial arts and even now still I compete and teach firearms..as hobbies. Back before kids I was involved in elite martial arts though and there was a LOT of B.S like what I see with IPO/Schutzhund around here. All performance hobbies are at risk for stuff like this I thjink. Instructors at each other, talking about each other, underhanded stuff. BUT back then I had more tolerance, more drive I enjoyed it (martial arts) and just didn't participate in the backhand stuff. Or ignored it. Or laughed at it..but now, I don't have the tolerance for pettiness in HOBBIES or GAMES. Know what I mean? 

It all comes down to what you want out of it. If you want stress free bonding and relationship strengtheners for you are your dog but don't have the energy for drama and don't want to put on your thick skin in your down time, it might not be for you. If you want to learn and succeed at it the best you can with what you have, go for it and to H with the Judgey McJudgersons.

Me? My stage and circumstance in life I'm more like what is her name.. Sweet Brown, Ain't Nobody Got Time For That.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I didn’t read through all of the comments, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned. But IPO is difficult, even if you have a dog cut out for it. Fun, yes. But difficult. If the people you are contacting sound discouraging, it could just be that they don’t want you to come out with a dog that doesn’t really have what it takes and get discouraged.

I started IPO training with my first GSD quite by accident. He has some temperament issues and some fear issues that I needed help with, and I found an IPO trainer so I could figure out how to work past those issues. After about a year, my boy was doing IPO style obedience and tracking, but it was still a struggle. If I was looking to get a GSD puppy and thought I might possibly want to try IPO, I think I’d set myself up for success right off the bat and get a dog with solid nerves and the right drives to do the sport. I’ve seen both sides of it firsthand... it’s much easier to work with a dog that is right for the sport than it is to try to make your dog into an IPO dog. 

All that said, I love working my boy in IPO style obedience now, and, provided you don’t get a dog with weak nerves/fear issues, IPO could be very fun for you, even if the dog ends up not quite having what it takes to do all aspects of the sport.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

There has been some good info posted here. While it pretty true that you and BYB GSD will not get the most attention or help but if you are persistent and show some progress more than likely they will come around. Learning tracking and obedience correctly on your “ practice dog” will go a very long ways toward doing the right things with the next dog ( more likely candidate). If you really pay attention to every dog at training and watch and learn, you will pick up all kinds of pointers and help. Look at it as your training school. This part of the sport is very time consuming so knowing where to start and what you need to do will save a lot of time. 

Protection work is a separate entity in itself. It’s difficult to learn to be a helper or even to learn to see what a dog is showing you. I hate the phrase “reading the dog” but that’s what it is. Watching the eyes, the tail, the ears, general expression, body posture then putting a picture together in you head of what the dog is showing and making the correct moves for this dog in a split second takes talent and knowledge....without ego and macho stuff. Knowing when to stop at the highest point for the dog is very important. It would be very worthwhile for you to ask if you could follow behind the helper and observe and ask questions. Some will let you some not. The more interest you show the more likely they will help you. Being an engineer I ask questions all the time. Often I ask questions I already know the answer to, just to see if the other person knows what they are talking about. Arrogant you might say, no it is not, it’s learning who knows what. 

An important part of protection training is following helper instructions exactly, not just close or good enough. He tells you to stand still while holding an 85 pound ball of fire, you had better stand rock still while he works your dog. I got to make a very painful trip to the ER because of handler error. So really pay attention here.

I saw lots of good dogs never reach their potential due to poor training. Simply not applying what was given to the handlers. My first trial I entered was at a club I had never been to. Nobody knew me or my dog. Other than attend a few trials all I had done was train according to what I saw at the local club, errors included. We were the only ones to pass SCH I that day. It wasn’t the prettiest and not without some tense moments on my part. It started out with my dog putting muddy feet on the front of the German judge’s coat. I thought we were done right there, but the judge says “ dog verly happy to be here. Now show me vork”. There were some good dogs of top breeding that just needed lots of help. Sometimes the handlers are just too pig headed to admit someone has a better idea.

Anyway there is a lot to this sport, it’s time consuming, frustrating, yet it has its joys. Other sports just can’t match the thrill of success here.

Byron


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Your comments were helpful and helped me think about IPO in another way. A german shepherd dog working toward and getting an IPO title seems analogous to a person working toward and attaining a Master's degree, with IPO2/3 being like PhDs. That's probably what it must feel like to both the dog and the trainer!

Not everyone needs a Masters or Phd. Not everyone is cut out for that level of study. Some people who are not exceptionally smart can get those degrees if they put in the work diligently. But people who ARE studying for their qualifiers may or may not be happy to have people come around asking them random questions. 

Thanks for your perspective!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

CometDog said:


> I mean, I didn't want to put you off it, just give a perspective of what could be. Before I had a few curve balls thrown at me in life I did martial arts and even now still I compete and teach firearms..as hobbies. Back before kids I was involved in elite martial arts though and there was a LOT of B.S like what I see with IPO/Schutzhund around here. All performance hobbies are at risk for stuff like this I thjink. Instructors at each other, talking about each other, underhanded stuff. BUT back then I had more tolerance, more drive I enjoyed it (martial arts) and just didn't participate in the backhand stuff. Or ignored it. Or laughed at it..but now, I don't have the tolerance for pettiness in HOBBIES or GAMES. Know what I mean?
> 
> It all comes down to what you want out of it. If you want stress free bonding and relationship strengtheners for you are your dog but don't have the energy for drama and don't want to put on your thick skin in your down time, it might not be for you. If you want to learn and succeed at it the best you can with what you have, go for it and to H with the Judgey McJudgersons.
> 
> Me? My stage and circumstance in life I'm more like what is her name.. Sweet Brown, Ain't Nobody Got Time For That.


I COMPLETELY understand what you mean by having no tolerance for pettiness in hobbies and games! I have been doing aikido for 3 years and I ENJOY it because there is almost no BS at my dojo. All the people are nice, no machismo or people trying to "prove" anything. It's all about the martial art, not the personalities.

You haven't put me "off" of IPO, but you provided more to consider, and I think it is better for me to do what I can according to the "free puppy's" natural strengths and weaknesses, and then, if I feel I MUST do IPO, get a dog that is more likely to succeed (but not guaranteed) thanks to genetics.

I want to enjoy life, enjoy life with a dog, and not stress. I truly have no interest in being around unpleasant high-strung people! Even if I had a dog with uncanny natural talent for schutzhund, I'd be leaving a club in minutes if the people were unpleasant. 

I'll revist them and see what I get as far as additional impressions, but my priorities have straightened out and I'm grateful for that!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

LOL, no she's spaying and neutering after this litter.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> Because they love each other, Lol.


I know; I laughed too (but not in their face). 
"Show me the Valentine's cards signed in pawprints or it didn't happen."
"He's only into her because she has that awesome Kong toy."

The jokes write themselves.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Or maybe it was a weekend in Vegas?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I have know a number of people who did IPO with mixed breed dogs or dogs with untitled parents, and the dogs did okay. Maybe not great, but okay.

I have also seen very well bred German show line dogs with impeccable pedigrees that were an absolute flop at the sport.

You can test the puppy yourself. See if it will chase after a rag or toy you drag along the floor. See if it will play tug with it. Get a can of pebbles and shake it, then roll it along the floor. If the puppy is scared of it, look for another dog. Bang a dog bowl and make it clang really loudly. If the puppy show anything other than a slight startle response, keep looking! Throw a ball, as see what the puppy will do. The ideal response would be to retrieve it for you, or at least to pick the ball up, and try to get you to play (maybe bring the ball to you, but not let you actually take it away.)

I tested Star before I brought her home at 12 weeks. She wanted to chase after and play with the pebble can. When she first heard gun fire during a temperament test, she tried to go behind the blind to see where it had come from!


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Too bad we'll never know, given the adage about what happens there.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I'm going to see if I can do the Volhard test (minus the holding-down-and-struggle-response part), which instructs some of your suggestions and then I'll also do some of the others once 7 weeks of age arrives! This weekend should be "warm" (~ 50F) so maybe I can watch the pups play outside for a few minutes. At 5 weeks it'll only be added info and only for now.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Don't discount a dog based on papers. Every once in a while you hit solid gold.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Idk about the club your referencing. But our club we don't ask about papers or pedigrees. If you have a dog you bring the dog out. The TD will evaluate the dog and if she sees the drives and temperament necessary then that is all that matters. If the dog doesn't have it then she tells you that this dog doesn't have what it takes and if you want to do IPO then you'll need another dog.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

cdwoodcox said:


> Idk about the club your referencing. But our club we don't ask about papers or pedigrees. If you have a dog you bring the dog out. The TD will evaluate the dog and if she sees the drives and temperament necessary then that is all that matters. If the dog doesn't have it then she tells you that this dog doesn't have what it takes and if you want to do IPO then you'll need another dog.


That's what I was hoping for with the club I contacted. Didn't get it, though. Oh well! Some people are easygoing, some are more uptight. Takes all kinds I guess.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

I'll do the most I can with the dog I get and see what we can do. If he's not "gold" in IPO he may be so in something else and if I can be a really great person to my dog, I'll figure out what that something else is, even if it's "just" our pet.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cdwoodcox said:


> Idk about the club your referencing. But our club we don't ask about papers or pedigrees. If you have a dog you bring the dog out. The TD will evaluate the dog and if she sees the drives and temperament necessary then that is all that matters. If the dog doesn't have it then she tells you that this dog doesn't have what it takes and if you want to do IPO then you'll need another dog.


While I totally agree with this, some 'clubs' are paid sleeves, pay to train and money is made while stringing potential clients along. They may see 'potential' but it may not be the same potential that a good trainer/training director would see.
I also have seen clubs that are super competitive and do not want a newbie taking up valuable time/resources. 
This is where visiting multiple clubs is important, though not easy in many locals. 
When you find a good place, like yours cdwoodcox, it is a blessing!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cdwoodcox said:


> Idk about the club your referencing. But our club we don't ask about papers or pedigrees. If you have a dog you bring the dog out. The TD will evaluate the dog and if she sees the drives and temperament necessary then that is all that matters. If the dog doesn't have it then she tells you that this dog doesn't have what it takes and if you want to do IPO then you'll need another dog.



^^^ This. I've trained with a few different clubs as well as being a member of one of the clubs with a top world level trainer. I've trained with WUSV members that have clubs in NJ. Wonderful people. I've trained at seminars with WUSV team members who worked a BYB dog with no potential. And every single person at the seminar cheered when the dog finally barked. It was a big deal to all of us there to see the dog succeed, even with such a small step. 

What clubs do not have time for is someone who is in and out. There are only so many spots available in the clubs and so much time in a training day. If you don't commit, and IPO IS a commitment!, then you probably won't feel very welcome.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> I'll do the most I can with the dog I get and see what we can do. If he's not "gold" in IPO he may be so in something else and if I can be a really great person to my dog, I'll figure out what that something else is, even if it's "just" our pet.


There are any number of activities a dog might enjoy. And as I understand it a fair number of people train only in the tracking and obedience portions of IPO. You don't have the dog yet, so see what you have first. As long as this isn't a case of if it isn't perfect I'll just get rid of it, then grab the puppy and have fun with it.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2018)

Nope, not that kind of a case at all. I am eager to find out what the dog teaches me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Everyone has to have a first dog to learn from. It may be you learn the dog can't do IPO, so train in something else. Any training is better than no training.
Agility
Dock Diving
Nose Work
obedience
tracking
rally

many many other things to do if the dog is not suited for IPO. Just have fun and learn.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I have not read all the responses. 

Papers do not make a dog capable of something or not. It all comes down to the individual dog and the skill of the trainer. Now, if you're set on IPO, then better to stack the deck in your favor, and get a dog from a breeder who works and tests their dogs. At my club, we have all different types of dogs, from all walks of life. As long as the handler is putting in the effort and doing their homework, then I will work it. I started with a dog not really cut out for bite work. I can tell you I learned a lot from her. Nothing came easy and I had to work my butt off to make progress. I think she's what helped me become a decent trainer. Good dogs make things too easy sometimes lol.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

mycobraracr said:


> Papers do not make a dog capable of something or not. It all comes down to the individual dog and the skill of the trainer. Now, if you're set on IPO, then better to stack the deck in your favor, and get a dog from a breeder who works and tests their dogs. At my club, we have all different types of dogs, from all walks of life. As long as the handler is putting in the effort and doing their homework, then I will work it. I started with a dog not really cut out for bite work. I can tell you I learned a lot from her. Nothing came easy and I had to work my butt off to make progress. I think she's what helped me become a decent trainer. Good dogs make things too easy sometimes lol.


This is how my club is. If the owner is willing to put in the time, the club will support them and help them. Usually the owner gets discouraged and moves on, but we have a few that kept at it and did the best they could with their first dog.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Getting the impression that some clubs will evaluate before allowing a dog to be trained in that club…in that case, how is the evaluation done and what is the trainer looking for?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Generally, checking the drives of the dog, nerve strength and trainablitly of both dog and handler. Personally I evaluate the handler just as much of the dog. Dogs easily change, but the people you’re stuck with. So, is this person someone I can work with? Do they listen and follow directions?


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I think a lot of clubs have gotten used to new people coming out ready to conquer IPO only to quit about 3 months in when the novelty of it all wears off. I can see why clubs don't get overly excited when a new member shows up.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

This! For every 10-20 people who come out maybe one actually sticks with it. I think after people realize the slow progress at first, the time commitment and so on. It wears them down. I’ve also had someone tell me that all I’m doing is playing tug with their dog and they can do that at home so they don’t need me. Good luck trying to explain, that there is a lot more going on than they think lol.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

LOL. I kept my opinions to myself. But, when I first started training and the helper brought out a tug I was thinking (what the ****)? It took time to understand and see that their is a process and reasoning behind it all. It is also hard to swallow the fact that your dog has weaknesses. No one wants to accept that their dog isn't a complete ready born badass. Once again it takes time to understand that we train to address weaknesses and work through them. one day a helper explained to me a better way to look at it.
helper: do you have any kids?
me: yes, youngest is 14 
helper: would it surprise you if you brought your kid (14) here and he didn't think he could or be able to successfully battle me?
me: no that is just nuts he's just a kid.
helper: What if your kid trained with a martial artist and matured into an adult. Would it seem more logical then?
me: of course.
helper: well, what do you think were doing with these dogs. Building them up. Both skills, and confidence. Your pup right now has the drives. It is up to us to develop them into that adult that has the skills and confidence.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Love your helper's story! 
Another issue with people often not sticking with the training, is that they want you to fix their broken dog. 

You know, the secret, magic training techniques that we have sworn to keep secret and the magic powder we sprinkle on the dog that will make it behave? When, instead, we start talking about work, focus, obedience, bonding, leadership, routine, rewards, homework, time, commitment, baby steps, etc, their eyes glaze over and we don't see them again. They they probably complain to everyone how we weren't able to help them with their problem dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mycobraracr said:


> Generally, checking the drives of the dog, nerve strength and trainablitly of both dog and handler. Personally I evaluate the handler just as much of the dog. Dogs easily change, but the people you’re stuck with. So, is this person someone I can work with? Do they listen and follow directions?


If I ever decide to do IPO I am coming to find you. Lol.

My first experience with a schutzhund club soured me for life. I took Sabi, who was already a PPD and a working patrol dog, to an open house at a local club. I wanted to try. I was told her parentage was not an issue. The two gentleman who seemed in charge fell in love. Oohed and Aahed over her, commented on her "presence", loved her "expression", complemented me on her behavior. She did what she did and gathered admirers.
They required any dogs to pass their temperament test. She aced it.
Then they inquired about her breeding. Then she was garbage, no good, not going to cut it. I was furious. Left and never tried again.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

To stick with any dog sport, you have to love training. Not just the idea of training. It's not always easy and it's not always enjoyable and it's not for everyone. And THAT is totally ok.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The dog should want to do it though....even if there are things lacking, pushing a dog that either has issues with certain pressure put on it, or physical limitations should not be done.
I decided to retire my male when he was 7 because he began balking at the jumps and sitting. I didn't want him to break down as he aged. He is almost 9 and doing well, but I know if we had continued in the sport, he would be dragging. I could have "made him" do these things through correcting him, but I knew he was hesitating due to his physical body giving him discomfort. 
I see dogs that are broken from various sports and it is pretty sad. I know, accidents happen, though some sports definitely are hard on the body. 
When I see GSD's doing flyball and disc, I wonder how the body holds up for as long as it does. The GSD is much larger in structure than what those sports are designed for.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> Generally, checking the drives of the dog, nerve strength and trainablitly of both dog and handler. Personally I evaluate the handler just as much of the dog. Dogs easily change, but the people you’re stuck with. So, is this person someone I can work with? Do they listen and follow directions?


When you evaluate do you other things besides tug or is that usually enough? Do you do anything to startle the dog?



cdwoodcox said:


> I think a lot of clubs have gotten used to new people coming out ready to conquer IPO only to quit about 3 months in when the novelty of it all wears off. I can see why clubs don't get overly excited when a new member shows up.


I've had intrest in ipo, but I often have long stretches with zero free time. Even if a club would have me my dog would probably be a senior citizen by the time I actually got very far. We've done akc stuff which is easier to work on randomly, however I wanna give the bh a try.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> You know, the secret, magic training techniques that we have sworn to keep secret and the magic powder we sprinkle on the dog that will make it behave?


 I am going to have to ask my training director exactly how long one has to be a member before those secrets are divulged. I hope it doesn't involve any strange blood oath. Don't get me wrong I would still do it. I would just prefer not to have to.:|:|


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