# opinions on this pedigree



## Sabis mom

Line-breeding for the progency of UKC CH Amadeus Jazzed Up On Coltrane von Granville and UKC CH, VP1, G Cashmere vom Boeselager


Just some honest opinions. Keeping in mind that I want an active pet with the ability to be trained as a working dog. And temperament and health are my big issues.


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## wolfstraum

too much inconsistency in type to make any kinds of judgement call... pet sure....working? DDR/pet/WL with tail female out uncredentialed and sires dam lines with some AKC stuff/BH.....who knows...

I look for complementary and compensatory lines/abilities.....no way to tell on this....

Might be fine to do some entry level training...but with the questions on the sires dam lines....but the dam being half DDR and 3 gens of nothing credentialed in her dam lines it is a crap shoot...

I did not go look up OFAs....I would do that for sure before making a commitment (offa.org)

Lee


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## Sabis mom

Thank you Lee. I respect your honesty. Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting. All health testing/OFA checks out and the pups from this breeding are developing nicely. It may be repeated and I really like this bitch. The breeder backs her dogs 100%, is heavy into health testing and does a variety of things with them, outside of the traditional. It is worth mentioning that she is relatively new and learning herself, so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point. 
My plans for a pup derailed due to life but I keep coming back to this one bitch.
I do have to say that as breeders go, she may be doing some stuff a bit backward but she is doing an awful lot right.


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## atravis

Sabi (hello btw, long time not speak!), lines and pedigree aside, these are GSDs. Even a "pet type" GSD banks the odds of being a very trainable companion animal that anyone but the most serious working prospector stands to enjoy.

Besides that, I just like Granville. She may be up-and-coming, and this particular bitch may not have all the bells and whistles, but as a kennel I can totally get behind them and consider what they are doing worth supporting. I know of no other breeder doing health testing as comprehensive, and knowing your history I can completely understand why that would be of importance to you, as it is to many. Many of her dogs don't have high level titles, but she DOES work them, which is more than most can say.


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## gsdsar

Is this pup from Granville? My friend has a dog from them. Very nice dog, good drive, social, stable. When she told me about him I looked at the website and was underwhelmed, but her boy and his litter mate are doing pretty great things now. So, I guess it's all in what you produce.


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## Sabis mom

Ha! I would know that dog anywhere. I hope all is well with you and the boys.

I keep looking for another pup, and I keep circling back, to Kashmir. I do like the breeder and I do believe she deserves praise for her efforts. But I really, really like this bitch. So much so that I considered offering to buy her a while back. Sadly an adult bitch is a bad idea. It seems I am not destined to have a pup anytime soon.


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## atravis

All is well, and I hope the same for your crew 

Liking the bitch that much is reason enough to stay in contact. For what you want, I can't imagine a breeding like this wouldn't produce it. Being overly concerned with complementary pedigrees and which lines blend well/etc is all well and good for the serious competitor or a breeder. For a nice working pet? Who could look at Granville and not appreciate what they are striving for, even if they are just starting out.


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## Sabis mom

gsdsar said:


> Is this pup from Granville? My friend has a dog from them. Very nice dog, good drive, social, stable. When she told me about him I looked at the website and was underwhelmed, but her boy and his litter mate are doing pretty great things now. So, I guess it's all in what you produce.


Is he a Berlin pup? For a dog with no real titles, he is proving to be quite the producer. Working PD, SAR, service dogs, detection. 
Yes it's a Granville litter, planned anyway.


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## wolfstraum

Sabis mom said:


> Thank you Lee. I respect your honesty. Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting. All health testing/OFA checks out and the pups from this breeding are developing nicely. It may be repeated and I really like this bitch. The breeder backs her dogs 100%, is heavy into health testing and does a variety of things with them, outside of the traditional. It is worth mentioning that she is relatively new and learning herself, so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point.
> My plans for a pup derailed due to life but I keep coming back to this one bitch.
> I do have to say that as breeders go, she may be doing some stuff a bit backward but she is doing an awful lot right.



The first highlighted comment would make me be very cautious.....I don't like dogs like this...I like dogs who WANT to work with you. Perhaps the male counteracts this characteristic, but breeders need to know the lines, how to combine them etc....and with the second comment, I would not have alot of confidence.

Lee


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## carmspack

why would a female that "Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting" be of interest , and why would a breeder hoping to produce some solid dogs breed a female that fits this description.
Does not sound like something that you would want in a pet home which generally are not prepared for a "challenge to train" and not something you would want for competition where the dog "does not thrive" , and not for real work either because results will likely be unreliable.
No work ethic?
Independent . 
Why when you " want an active pet with the ability to be trained as a working dog. " and the breeder has given information which is contrary to your ideal , do you "really, really like this bitch".


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> why would a female that "Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting" be of interest , and why would a breeder hoping to produce some solid dogs breed a female that fits this description.
> Does not sound like something that you would want in a pet home which generally are not prepared for a "challenge to train" and not something you would want for competition where the dog "does not thrive" , and not for real work either because results will likely be unreliable.
> No work ethic?
> Independent .
> Why when you " want an active pet with the ability to be trained as a working dog. " and the breeder has given information which is contrary to your ideal , do you "really, really like this bitch".


Do you want my honest answer? 

Because I have spent my entire 43 years on this planet close to horses, dogs and other creatures. In my time with horses I learned to look beyond the looks, beyond the breeding and trust what I read in the eyes. Later I learned that sometimes the same is true of dogs. Because the first time I saw her I believe my exact words were 'I'm not nuts about the bitch', then I saw her eyes and watched her move. 
I like this breeder for her health testing and absolutely unwavering support, but I firmly believe that in this case she is the wrong handler for this bitch. I believe that the bond is weak and the bitch knows it, but I refuse to knock the breeder for not bailing on a dog she has love and raised from a pup.


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## Sabis mom

I want to tell you both that I am listening and you are raising good and valid points that I need to consider. I knew I was going to take some knocks on this one. I want a good dog, and I love where Granville is heading. But I am a reasonable person and certainly no child, nor am I new to dogs. Just to ones who's parents I can find.
I just don't want the breeder knocked unfairly.


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## gsdsar

Not to derail the thread, but I think sometimes people get so focused on pedigree that they forget to see what's actually being produced. 

Sometimes we have to look beneath the lineage and see what's happening in the actual program. 

The two dogs from this breeder I know are exceptional dogs. Enough so that I would consider them in the future. 

The breeder I got my male, Ike, from would be ripped to shreds on this board. But if you look at their program, they have consistently produced LE, SAR, SchH ,obedience and agility competitive dogs. If they were still breeding, it's where I would have gone. 

Look at the success of the program and don't hyper focus on 4 generations back. See the big picture. 

I have never met or talked to this breeder. So I have no glove in this fight. I just hate to see someone's program, in it's beginning stage, be ripped without the benefit if actually knowing what they are producing. 

Who here has not had a dog that would have achieved more in different hands?


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## wolfstraum

what was offered was pedigree....

I never looked up or at the website until just now.....and seriously am scratching my head over it....no rhyme or reason to the collection of dogs

what HAS been produced? UKC championships are not a big big deal in the working GSD world....normal health testing is something ALL good breeders do....testing for things not a normal problem in a GSD???? Does not impress someone who knows these things are not a normal issue. Liking a dog is fine...buying a couple dogs and breeding them because you bought them ???? Doing something with the dog - having it evaluated if not titled by people who are respected in the breed....using a dog for stud with a STAR puppy and CGC and HIC as accomplishments? and with a pedigree with big holes in it????? 

Just a big crap shoot ..... for the breeders and buyers 

Lee


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## Lucy Dog

Sabis mom said:


> Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting.


The dog is not easily trained and does not do well under any kind of pressure. So why exactly is this dog being bred?


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## carmspack

"but I refuse to knock the breeder for not bailing on a dog she has love and raised from a pup. "

all fine and dandy -- but the dog did not need to be bred.


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## carmspack

" 'I'm not nuts about the bitch', then I saw her eyes and watched her move. " that is superficial 

"so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point. " all the more reason not to breed with a difficult , challenging dog to train . Her puppy owners may be faced with similar types and she is in no position then to offer them advice or guidance.

WHY is this dog challenging and difficult to train . No motivation , fear / anxiety , lack of focus , submissive , obviously does not thrive in a show/sport setting, meaning what she shuts down , goes into avoidance, does she become handler hard and aggressive?

Sorry , who is Berlin?


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## Lucy Dog

carmspack said:


> Sorry , who is Berlin?


Berlin an Granville vom Gildaf (Berlin) - Granville German Shepherds


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> " 'I'm not nuts about the bitch', then I saw her eyes and watched her move. " that is superficial
> 
> "so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point. " all the more reason not to breed with a difficult , challenging dog to train . Her puppy owners may be faced with similar types and she is in no position then to offer them advice or guidance.
> 
> WHY is this dog challenging and difficult to train . No motivation , fear / anxiety , lack of focus , submissive , obviously does not thrive in a show/sport setting, meaning what she shuts down , goes into avoidance, does she become handler hard and aggressive?
> 
> Sorry , who is Berlin?


My mistake, it was another bitch that she said did not thrive in a show setting. She has since been spayed and placed in a pet home
Says she is highly independent, and confident in all situations. Aloof with strangers and social with family and friends. If I had 8 dogs to title I would be spending less time with the difficult one as well. Tracking ability, herding ability, lure coursing it would seem to me she enjoys activities where she has more independence and less structure, I can relate. Doesn't mean she can't do it, means she has an owner who wants her to be happy. And the pups from this breeding are by all reports confident, social pups who are thriving and willing to learn.
I had a patrol dog once who was amazing on patrol but clearly disliked crowd control. He never failed to do his job but was plainly unhappy about it. My first patrol dog thought nothing of bitting his handler if you made a mistake. My darling Sabi would work all day, ask her to perform some task she deemed beneath her and she would raise an eyebrow and snort before walking away.

And no, eyes are not superficial. They will tell you everything you need to know and then some. And by movement I was referring to the confidence and arrogance? under the motion.


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## atravis

wolfstraum said:


> what was offered was pedigree....
> 
> I never looked up or at the website until just now.....and seriously am scratching my head over it....no rhyme or reason to the collection of dogs
> 
> what HAS been produced? UKC championships are not a big big deal in the working GSD world....normal health testing is something ALL good breeders do....*testing for things not a normal problem in a GSD???? Does not impress someone who knows these things are not a normal issue. * Liking a dog is fine...buying a couple dogs and breeding them because you bought them ???? Doing something with the dog - having it evaluated if not titled by people who are respected in the breed....using a dog for stud with a STAR puppy and CGC and HIC as accomplishments? and with a pedigree with big holes in it?????
> 
> Just a big crap shoot ..... for the breeders and buyers
> 
> Lee


Unimpressive... until your own pet comes down with one of these issues, and you are stuck having to deal with it.

Exactly how many of your breeding dogs have you tested for DM wolfstraum?

Maybe its not a serious issue to you. I can sure as heck tell you its a serious issue to some


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## wolfstraum

atravis said:


> Unimpressive... until your own pet comes down with one of these issues, and you are stuck having to deal with it.
> 
> Exactly how many of your breeding dogs have you tested for DM wolfstraum?
> 
> Maybe its not a serious issue to you. I can sure as heck tell you its a serious issue to some



You know what the saying is about making an assumption don't you Les???

Since the test has come out, all my upcoming dogs are tested for DM. The first and second dams of my litters and upcoming breeding females did/do not have DM and have now shown to produce clear/clear progeny. At this point, all my breeding females go back to my original HOT SchH3 dog, Kyra - who never had any issues, produced no health issues and her daughter Csabre, who will be 11 and has had NO health issues, no DM, produces sound dogs with most going OFA Good, all normal elbows, can eat ANYTHING, no allergies etc. One young female was brought in at 8 weeks because she was a granddaughter of Csabre's father, thus hoping to get some of his qualities for which he seemed to be prepotent. Also DM free, no health issues, 'a' normal hips and elbows, OFA prelim Good hips, normal elbows (and also true for Kira and Bengal)....No I don't do all those other OFA tests because they are not a normal concern for GSDs. Not trying to dazzle someone with an onslaught of non essential information to make it appear that I am something that I am not.

Lee


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## martemchik

I have to admit...as someone that "knows," that list of health certification just seemed like over kill. Instead of focusing on training and tilting...it was just $40 tests to be able to put on a website. I'm not going to say its a bad thing...but it's an easy way out...it's opening the check book instead of dedicating the time. Like Lee said...there are only a few things that I worry about when it comes to GSDs, and if you can track the pedigree many times you can figure out/find out if any issues pop up without those tests anyways.


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## atravis

wolfstraum said:


> You know what the saying is about making an assumption don't you Les???
> 
> Since the test has come out, all my upcoming dogs are tested for DM. The first and second dams of my litters and upcoming breeding females did/do not have DM and have now shown to produce clear/clear progeny. At this point, all my breeding females go back to my original HOT SchH3 dog, Kyra - who never had any issues, produced no health issues and her daughter Csabre, who will be 11 and has had NO health issues, no DM, produces sound dogs with most going OFA Good, all normal elbows, can eat ANYTHING, no allergies etc. One young female was brought in at 8 weeks because she was a granddaughter of Csabre's father, thus hoping to get some of his qualities for which he seemed to be prepotent. Also DM free, no health issues, 'a' normal hips and elbows, OFA prelim Good hips, normal elbows (and also true for Kira and Bengal)....No I don't do all those other OFA tests because they are not a normal concern for GSDs. Not trying to dazzle someone with an onslaught of non essential information to make it appear that I am something that I am not.
> 
> Lee


GOOD! Then why don't you make this information available on your website? Which, for your negative opinion on Granville's site, is very hard to navigate and clearly lacking in details that many would consider very important.

I'd rathe have too many details on the health of my breeding stock than not enough. I see nothing at all wrong with making that information public.


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## Sabis mom

atravis said:


> Unimpressive... until your own pet comes down with one of these issues, and you are stuck having to deal with it.
> 
> Exactly how many of your breeding dogs have you tested for DM wolfstraum?
> 
> Maybe its not a serious issue to you. I can sure as heck tell you its a serious issue to some


Yes, yes it is. 

Sabi was not a 'sport dog', she never 'earned' a title, heck I don't even know who her parents were. 
What she did do was come to work with me, every shift but 4, from the age of 2 to the age of 9. She had my back, every day. She saved my life, twice. She was directly responsible for a drop in criminal activity in our patrol areas, she assisted our local PD in at least 3 apprehensions, she helped trained 9 young dogs and was a regular at local events where she and I handled access and crowd control. 
So you can imagine my upset when about 1 year into retirement, I got to learn all about DM. 
I am so glad that many of the members of this site participate in a sport designed to test this wonderful breed. BUT IT'S A SPORT! Yes it's hard work, yes it requires training and dedication.

DM stole my partner from me, and what a rotten way for a great dog to go. So imagine my frustration at learning about the pathetically small number of breeders who test for it. All I ever wanted was the same drive, work ethic, heart and wisdom that I got out of my BYB dog. I wanted the do anything dog that this breed is supposed to be. I asked for an opinion on a pedigree, some of you raised some valid concerns and I heard you. I have spent almost 3 years now searching for a pup. I have been turned down flat by lots of breeders, some on this site. I have been told I wasn't qualified to own a working dog, and I was flat out told that 'working lines don't have DM'. 

I KNOW for a fact that most breeders are still doing minimal testing, I know that DM testing in Canada is almost non existant. In fact my search of listed breeders in Canada turned up.....1.
I asked about the pedigree, the breeder in my honest opinion is fantastic. How many of you would take a pup back, temporarily, at your expenses to seek treatment for a non genetic health issue just to help the family out? This woman isn't rich, she works 2 jobs. And you guys are on her about titles? Really?

Mulder, stay in touch ok.


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## wolfstraum

atravis said:


> GOOD! Then why don't you make this information available on your website? Which, for your negative opinion on Granville's site, is very hard to navigate and clearly lacking in details that many would consider very important.
> 
> I'd rathe have too many details on the health of my breeding stock than not enough. I see nothing at all wrong with making that information public.



FYI - the website is done in FrontPage, in like whatever was before vista - 5 computers ago....yes - it needs to be updated....and it is OBVIOUS that it has been at least 3 years since it was done as the last litter was H....who are now 6...the girl who did it is a robotics professor with 2 little kids, and although she offered to update - just hasn't gotten around to it....and I can barely get signed into the host site..



Lee


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## carmspack

I have tested for DM 
One of the advantages of having a long history with a line . 
When the average age of death is 13 to 14 without problems you know a great deal about their health.


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> I have tested for DM
> One *of the advantages of having a long history with a line* .
> When the average age of death is 13 to 14 without problems you know a great deal about their health.


Did you always have a long history with the line? Or did you have to start somewhere?

I am not knocking you or your program, just pointing something out. This bitch has a perfectly acceptable pedigree, and she is healthy. More importantly, this breeder answered me, listened to me, learned about me and my dogs, responded to my concerns. I contacted probably 30 breeders, guess how many responded. Guess how many politely told me I wasn't good enough. Guess how many were rude about it. Guess how many do not sell to Canada.

And just to reiterate, not rushing at all.


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## lalachka

you're not good enoigh? what was the reasoning? and what was the rude way of telling you that?
sorry if you don't want to answer, you brought it up a few times so I figured you don't mind

I will be buying a pup sometime soon, interested to know what i'm in for.


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## holland

If you are happy with the breeder-not sure it matters what others think. Think there are a number of breeders who would sell to Canada-and there are also a number of really good breeders in Canada. If a breeder won't sell to you there are other breeders


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## carmspack

Sabis "Did you always have a long history with the line? Or did you have to start somewhere?"

I think some 35 years of involvement with a line would reveal something or other along the way.
Tests were not available then.

Now they are and the line is tested . You don't have dogs in service for 9 years of active performance , and then another 3 to 4 years of retirement when dogs are not capable of working because of some degenerative problem.

quote "The age of onset of symptoms can vary from 6 to 15years of age or older, and some dogs who are genetically at risk for DM will die from other causes before any DM symptoms appear"

From the same site "It is important for breeders and owners to keep in mind all the traits present in an individual dog, and not to simply breed a test result"
and 
"We encourage breeders to DNA test potential breeding stock and consider the results of the DM test as part of their evaluation and decision-making process. "

the entire site Degenerative Myelopathy - Using the DNA test


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## atravis

carmspack said:


> Sabis "Did you always have a long history with the line? Or did you have to start somewhere?"
> 
> I think some 35 years of involvement with a line would reveal something or other along the way.
> Tests were not available then.
> 
> Now they are and the line is tested . You don't have dogs in service for 9 years of active performance , and then another 3 to 4 years of retirement when dogs are not capable of working because of some degenerative problem.
> 
> quote "The age of onset of symptoms can vary from 6 to 15years of age or older, and some dogs who are genetically at risk for DM will die from other causes before any DM symptoms appear"
> 
> From the same site "It is important for breeders and owners to keep in mind all the traits present in an individual dog, and not to simply breed a test result"
> and
> "We encourage breeders to DNA test potential breeding stock and consider the results of the DM test as part of their evaluation and decision-making process. "
> 
> the entire site Degenerative Myelopathy - Using the DNA test


I believe Sabi meant... were you BORN into this line of dogs? Did your family own them before you? Or did you have to start somewhere, with a fresh line, like this breeder is doing?

In order to know that certain pedigrees blend nicely, somebody had to be the first to do it. You'll never get anywhere if all you do is repeat the same formula over and over again- I would argue, that is EXACTLY what is wrong with this breed today. Too few people willing to step outside of their comfort zone. There was a really great thread here a while back, about people who had show/working crossed dogs. I'm sure few of those people knew exactly what they would be getting when they did those breedings, but look at some of the fabulous dogs that were produced from it. Would we really have been better off without them?


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## carmspack

no I did not inherit a line , and the thread probably was unicorn , http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/474482-its-unicorn-17.html


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## Sabis mom

Not sure what you mean by that. I just wanted an opinion and I got it. Thanks.

Breeders who were rude- some told me there were nice dogs in shelters. Some told me Labs were nice. One told me to come back in 10 years when I had some experience with working dogs.

Breeders who were polite-told me their dogs were not for me, which is fine I guess. One told me an ASL might be better. The breeder that I really wanted a pup from told me she only sold to approved homes, I am not apparently.

No expert here, not a trainer but I have owned, rescued and worked GSD's for the better part of 20 years. I have letters of reference from vets, my former employer, trainers and 2 K9 officers. Not sure what else is needed.


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## cliffson1

The onset and proliferation of many of these maladies in the breed ARE the result of breeding practices. But that's a whole nother discussion.


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## atravis

Bad breeding practices are certainly hurting the breed, but that's nothing special- they hurt ALL breeds. 

To argue people who are blending pedigrees that havnt been proven to produce results for the last 3 decades are ruining the breed is absurd. To call those dogs "unicorns" is insulting. It never ceases to amaze me how selfrighteous some are- if it's not what -I- would breed, it's wrong.

Bla bla bla. SSDD.


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## Jax08

Sabis mom said:


> Not sure what you mean by that. I just wanted an opinion and I got it. Thanks.
> 
> Breeders who were rude- some told me there were nice dogs in shelters. Some told me Labs were nice. One told me to come back in 10 years when I had some experience with working dogs.
> 
> Breeders who were polite-told me their dogs were not for me, which is fine I guess. One told me an ASL might be better. The breeder that I really wanted a pup from told me she only sold to approved homes, I am not apparently.
> 
> No expert here, not a trainer but I have owned, rescued and worked GSD's for the better part of 20 years. I have letters of reference from vets, my former employer, trainers and 2 K9 officers. Not sure what else is needed.


I had ZERO experience with working lines and only one German Shepherd from a shelter. And I never had that response when looking for a breeder. Including one breeder on this thread, who is still helpful to me even though I bought a dog from a different breeder (Lee!). They were all very helpful in helping me find what I needed. 

If you are getting negative responses from so many breeders, maybe re-evaluate what you are asking for or who you are asking?


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## cliffson1

People post requests for people to give an opinion on pedigrees....then when people give opinions that "some" don't like, others get huffy. Smh, ssdd!


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## Sabis mom

Carmen for someone who everyone says is helpful, you aren't being that way to me. While I respect your opinion, you didn't even respond to my inquiry about a pup so maybe you should consider that.

Jax08 you are correct, Lee is and has been helpful and informative. 

I just took a glance at an old pedigree that I haven't looked at in a while. The dogs name was Valiantdales Icon Vom Irwin. Tell me again that only titled dogs produce dogs capable of titling. Icons pedigree certainly isn't littered with titles or big names. Would anyone like to tell me he shouldn't have been bred? Maybe he was a unicorn.

And where was it that someone outscored the GSDs with a Border Collie at a trial.

It is attitudes like some of yours that push people away from the breed and the sport.


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## atravis

cliffson1 said:


> People post requests for people to give an opinion on pedigrees....then when people give opinions that "some" don't like, others get huffy. Smh, ssdd!


Then be honest with me Cliff, do you honestly believe its _wrong_ to mix pedigrees? Do you really believe doing that is hurting the breed?

I can say from my own research into the dogs that I like, that many of the most prominent lines today are quickly approaching bottleneck. You can't hardly look through some pedigrees and not find the same dogs over, and over again. Sure it can produce some nice dogs- often times it does- but is that what's really best for the breed overall?

How many "big" DDR lines today don't go back to Lord, or Don, or Tino or those lines? Are we just going to keep breeding those same dogs together into infinity? Oh, but that's right, we aren't. Those dogs are constantly getting splashed into other pedigrees, and no one seems to be complaining much. Yet at the same time no one knew how that was going to work out until somebody did it, and for many lines today that include them they garner praise because those were "good dogs". But heaven forbid, anyone in modern times try anything that deviates from standard. The "glorious breeders of the past" were the only ones who knew how to do it right, no deviation allowed for anyone else. I mean, least you accidentally produce some good dogs... oh, I'm sorry, I meant "unicorns".

Whatever


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## wolfstraum

Breeders DEVELOP a line, have a program......when you look at their litters, you see common lines behind them, females stay, prove themselves and are the next generation...all my dogs at this point have combos of the same lines, and coming through the same dogs....Xito Maineiche and Ufo specifically....yes we all start somewhere....I titled 2 dogs before I bred the one I titled....I had another female that I loved that I got from an abuse situation who was bred when I got her, I don't have anything from her and she had only 2 small litters.......When you look at a breeders site, you can see if they are commericial ie just buying dogs and selling pups or if they have a program.....Carmen has a program, Chris Wild does, Lisa Clark does....others not on the board do....I do.....but most - no, no program, just breeding commercially.

Thanks Michelle and Sabi's - I don't try to be mean, I try to be objective...
Lee


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## carmspack

"you didn't even respond to my inquiry about a pup so maybe you should consider that.''

my apologies for that . Everyone gets a response even if it is notification that there are no pups, no pups in the near future.

I think what may have happened is that the timing co-incided with one of my females (working for someone else) had a litter planned (to a certified working dog). For all intents an purposes it looked like she was pregnant.
Litter not too far away.

Rather than writing about the particulars about a "possible" litter , why not wait the few days, have the litter born and then respond and say , yes something is available , here is what I have . There were a lot of people waiting for the litter . 
Many times someone on the forum will gripe , when I give pedigree and results , that I am promoting . My response is there is nothing to promote . I don't have anything . 
Many times I have said this , I don't have anything . 

That just so happened to be the female that I spoke of in another current thread about costs of breeding . This was the female that went past due date, was x rayed to see what was going on , found on deceased pup that needed to be extracted , dam spayed on the spot.

That sets you back somewhat . I was really looking forward to an offspring from her . 

So somehow your enquiry must have been deleted.

I answer all the time. Just last week I got a very long multi point questionnaire -- . I gave a brief reply and invited the person to call , which they did and we had a very good long chat -- but too many things to cover and so I suggested they join the forum because a lot of their concerns were presently being covered in threads. They joined and they posted and I responded as did many others.


----------



## atravis

@wolfstraum-

Is that what you honestly believe Granville to be doing?

If so, that's a pretty hefty claim and I would personally like to understand your reasoning for the assumption.


----------



## carmspack

what the heck is this ? " Icons pedigree certainly isn't littered with titles or big names. Would anyone like to tell me he shouldn't have been bred? Maybe he was a unicorn.

And where was it that someone outscored the GSDs with a Border Collie at a trial.

It is attitudes like some of yours that push people away from the breed and the sport. "

scratching head 



the thread UNICORN was started by blitzkrieg , which was actually a good exchange of information.

I was in the camp that supported S O M E show lines -- 

this was ONE of my supportive emails - I used one dog as an example and gave an explanation why the dog was good.
THAT is the important thing . The GENETICS , not the titles . 

The Valiantdale dog was a dog of is time . Mine had a very similar background Lance free . GSD were bred with a balance -- before specialization of "show" . Lance and Canto , contemporaries more or less , were at the beginning of the clefts .



carmspack said:


> Cliff and others . Here is the show line male that was of interest to me . I believe this pedigree would have been useful to working and show line breeders . V Konrad von den zwei Loewen
> 
> got permission to use copy of information I had sent to the person who introduced me to Konrad by way of the request to look in to a pedigree . By copying here it saves me a lot of time --
> 
> "I actually quite like Konrad .
> Beautiful structure . More like the dogs of the Dingo v h Gero era . Balanced. His work report seems quite good.
> A friend and I used to play 'what if' games.
> What if the WGSL's had gone with Quanto , (instead of Canto) used Mutz and Marko , would the WGSL's be significantly different. It is my belief that this would be the case . I think Canto and the inbreeding on him spoiled things forever.
> Quanto was a strong dog and did produce sound working dogs.
> In the late 70's I saw quite a few Quanto progeny , sons of Lasso div al Sole , alta Quercia dogs .
> Konrad does bring in Kai Silberbrand (Marko / herding ) and the old Kirschental herding genetics. (through Rikkor)
> Fanto Hirschel -- I believe was appreciated for good strong character. I am not talking about the crazy reactive stuff -- just good dependable serviceability. Not specialized , versatility.
> Fanto had movement that could match Dingo Gero . Produced good hips . Produced good character and temperament . Was able to put this stamp on two or three generations past his immediate appearance in a pedigree.
> 
> When you look at the pedigree of Fanto you see the Quanto / Mutz combination .
> Ex Pari is a litter mate of Enno Pari -- which I have deliberately salted in some pedigrees. Enno is on quite a few "hard" working dogs . This is going to some "old" blood.
> Through Donix Busecker Schloss you have two touches to Faust Busecker Schloss , man , that's good . Faust's sire Onyx Forellenbach is a source for super tracking dogs.
> Faust was one of the dogs shot in WW 2 and from that day on breeder Alfred Hahn of Busecker Schloss dedicated his efforts to try to replicate this great dog. This also contributes to old working herding lines. Faust bred to a female with burg Fasanental , very old , (Norbert v Burg Fasanental).
> Hahn was a "master breeder" . It would serve to study his pedigrees to understand the intellectual side of planning .
> All this on Jenny v Grosen Sand , paternal grand mother of Fanto Hirschel.
> Veus Ecclesia Nova , brings Mike Stalhammer son of pivotal dog for Hahn , Valet Busecker Schloss.
> Still working within the Konrad portion of the pedigree , you also have connections to old herding lines . Eiko Kirschental , "gone over to the showlines" (and I saw him) does have Xitta Kirschental as his mother and if you follow her mother line she goes to Isa whose sire is the great Eros Busecker Schloss , which brings in Bernd Lierberg and the Wurtemburg herding dogs , and Zita Kirschental going back to consolidate the old Kirschental.
> OLD Kirschental was the real deal .
> *added material *
> Todays Kirschental is marketing OR looking at it with a positive approach , Kirschental is one of the breeders that "may" have show lines that can work -- a lot of the old shepherds said he sold out -- they are trial dogs -- now . Study the Isa pedigree.
> Nimi Kirchental with her great dam , was probably the point where there was a sell out .
> I don't like Asslan Klammle at all. A Canto son. I would say typical of Canto temperament. I saw him . Close contact . Dog somehow got loose during a specialty show and everyone suspended the show (I was handling that day) to catch him . He just ran and ran and ran .
> Part of the attraction and buzz was people talking about how much the guy had spent for the dog ! Later to go select champion. He could move .
> Asslan's best litter was the N litter (Nimi) Kirschental.
> 
> I don't know why Fuller would go to Asslan ???
> 
> Through Qualle Wattenscheid you go back to Knolle vd Hain. OLD herding .
> Claudius Hain part of the "wurtemberger" herding stock -- the other being Junker Nassau.
> If my friend and breeding partner , Ruth , who had my Carmspack dogs as her foundation, and who liked to bring in some show (for her purposes) AS LONG AS IT WORKED and was sound , approached me and asked would I agree to bring in Konrad to the lines I would say YES.
> I would go to him directly. Of course that can't be done . But I would not be adverse to the idea at all."
> 
> I believe Trienzbachtal has had a good reputation in show line dogs with the ability to do good work.


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## Jax08

> "you didn't even respond to my inquiry about a pup so maybe you should consider that.''





carmspack said:


> my apologies for that . Everyone gets a response even if it is notification that there are no pups, no pups in the near future.


I never got a response from Carmen either when I inquired about a puppy. Oh well...move on to a different breeder. I wouldn't get to hung up on a breeder that didn't respond, was rude, told you to get a poodle, whatever. Just move on.

If you like the dog, and you like what the dog is producing, go with that breeder.


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## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> I never got a response from Carmen either when I inquired about a puppy. Oh well...move on to a different breeder. I wouldn't get to hung up on a breeder that didn't respond, was rude, told you to get a poodle, whatever. Just move on.
> 
> If you like the dog, and you like what the dog is producing, go with that breeder.


Good for you that you can do that lol. My skin is much thinner than yours and I'm not looking forward to buying a pup.
Especially after my threads here and considering that it's a small world.


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## Jax08

Not all the breeders in the states are on these boards. Actually, very few of them are.


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## onyx'girl

Sabis mom said:


> Thank you Lee. I respect your honesty. *Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting*. All health testing/OFA checks out and the pups from this breeding are developing nicely. It may be repeated and I really like this bitch. The breeder backs her dogs 100%, is heavy into health testing and does a variety of things with them, outside of the traditional. It is worth mentioning that *she is relatively new and learning herself, so a difficult dog may be outside of her ability at this point. *
> My plans for a pup derailed due to life but I keep coming back to this one bitch.
> I do have to say that as breeders go, *she may be doing some stuff a bit backward* but she is doing an awful lot right.


What makes this bitch breedworthy?


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## Moriah

*Kirschental lines*

Carmspack, 

I so appreciate the info/eval. on the Kirschental lines that you gave in this thread.


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## wolfstraum

atravis said:


> @wolfstraum-
> 
> Is that what you honestly believe Granville to be doing?
> 
> If so, that's a pretty hefty claim and I would personally like to understand your reasoning for the assumption.


Read what I say, not what you want to think I say....I haven't bothered to analyze every dog on that site....


Lee


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## atravis

wolfstraum said:


> Read what I say, not what you want to think I say....I haven't bothered to analyze every dog on that site....
> 
> 
> Lee


Its pretty ambiguous what you say often times Lee, as you seem to do this a lot. Come to a thread, make a statement in a roundabout way that could easily be interpreted as a comment about the breeder in question, but without ever directly stating anything.

Easy way to absolve yourself of criticism. Come to a thread, "Sure sucks when a breeder does XYZ"

"But that's not what I'm saying _THIS_ Breeder is doing, no, I just brought that up because I felt like saying that here on the thread despite it not pertaining to the breeder in question at all".

Rather confusing, personally.


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## wolfstraum

Actually - what is confusing is that you seem to have decided to take an adversarial stance with what I think or post - regardless of what it is.....

Perspective is interesting - I try to stay within the terms of the site and make NON PERSONALLY CRITICAL observations and you want to turn this into a negative and fight about it.

Don't put "" around a statement I DID NOT MAKE. It is not a quote - it is your skewed perception or interpretation.

Lee


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## cliffson1

@Atravis....some 15 years ago I started mixing west working lines and Czech dogs....some of the top sport people screamed in indignation( some of which have been on this forum) Why Cliff?......those Czech dogs are nervy and don't have the almighty grips and only moderate prey drive! But I had a resource that knew Czech dogs inside out, I knew that the West WL was going into this over emphasis on points and point traits( prey,grips,animated obedience) and was in general losing suspicion, aloofness, fight, which are things that are important to the breed especially in some work. Plus in working with many many Czech dogs on PDs, I saw their strengths, and most of these sport people were regurgitating talking points from sport gossip circuit and had seen limited Czech dogs to form their righteous opinions. I already knew the West lines, so knowing genetic diversity was needed on both sides to keep both sides balanced for the future, I disregarded their sage advice and moved forward. Now look at how many "fools" like me have Czech/West mixes, to include podium people every year at national events and every other level.
My point is a few of us recognized that both lines was approaching bottlenecks, and could gain from the other, before they became too saturated in their genetics that to then mix them up will not be beneficial. You see when mixing up lines, a rule of thumb for me is that neither side can bring more deficits than positives to the table....or else I am going backwards. Also, nerves and temperament are too valuable in the breed to ever breed to a dog that is lacking these things or has a genetic backmassing of less than stellar nerves. I have a 10 year old all DDR female that is linebred 3,4-4,5 on Held v Ritterberg....I have bred her four times, but never to a DDR dog. 
So to answer your question, HONESTLY, I most certainly have mixed the lines, even when it was out of season...haha, but by same token there are certain lines that I cannot in conscience mix.....just too much genetic lack of nerve to expect the result to be up to minimal standard for this breed. 
Others may see things different, and for their needs they do what they see fit....but I have guided an awful lot of people to some nice dogs over the years, and I won't compromise that or go against genetics so that everyone can be right. Hope this answers your question of me.


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## cliffson1

@Atravis....some 15 years ago I started mixing west working lines and Czech dogs....some of the top sport people screamed in indignation( some of which have been on this forum) Why Cliff?......those Czech dogs are nervy and don't have the almighty grips and only moderate prey drive! But I had a resource that knew Czech dogs inside out, I knew that the West WL was going into this over emphasis on points and point traits( prey,grips,animated obedience) and was in general losing suspicion, aloofness, fight, which are things that are important to the breed especially in some work. Plus in working with many many Czech dogs on PDs, I saw their strengths, and most of these sport people were regurgitating talking points from sport gossip circuit and had seen limited Czech dogs to form their righteous opinions. I already knew the West lines, so knowing genetic diversity was needed on both sides to keep both sides balanced for the future, I disregarded their sage advice and moved forward. Now look at how many "fools" like me have Czech/West mixes, to include podium people every year at national events and every other level.
My point is a few of us recognized that both lines was approaching bottlenecks, and could gain from the other, before they became too saturated in their genetics that to then mix them up will not be beneficial. You see when mixing up lines, a rule of thumb for me is that neither side can bring more deficits than positives to the table....or else I am going backwards. Also, nerves and temperament are too valuable in the breed to ever breed to a dog that is lacking these things or has a genetic backmassing of less than stellar nerves. I have a 10 year old all DDR female that is linebred 3,4-4,5 on Held v Ritterberg....I have bred her four times, but never to a DDR dog. 
So to answer your question, HONESTLY, I most certainly have mixed the lines, even when it was out of season...haha, but by same token there are certain lines that I cannot in conscience mix.....just too much genetic lack of nerve to expect the result to be up to minimal standard for this breed. 
Others may see things different, and for their needs they do what they see fit....but I have guided an awful lot of people to some nice dogs over the years, and I won't compromise that or go against genetics so that everyone can be right. Hope this answers your question of me.


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## elisabeth_00117

Great post.


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## Sabis mom

ATravis

This member is involved in this thread largely in defense and support of me, I suspect.

Because she has watched me struggle through ups and downs with dogs that others considered not worthy, listened to my absolute frustration that the 'sport' breeders would not sell to me because I was on the outside. Because through differences of opinion we both agreed that we loved the breed, sometimes for different reasons. And she knows that I love my dogs, worthy or not, and will stand by them to the end. Because she was an observer, and support, when my heart shattered and my world fell apart.
I was educated by the worst of the breed, the BYB and mill dogs that come with health, behavioral and personality issues. Some were ultimately placed as high maintenance pets, a few rose above background and breeding to become shining examples of the breeds capacity to adapt and forgive. 
I turned a nothing dog into a spectacular working animal, mostly because she was great on her own and I was intelligent enough to let her take the lead. Somewhere in her genetic history there was some dog that was awesome, and she got those genes. Lucky me.

Because I wasn't bound by pedigrees, I didn't have any, I learned to base the dog on the dog. I looked at what I had in front of me.
And that's what I did with this bitch. I studying the girl herself, watched attitude, bearing, reaction and demeanor. What I saw was potential. 
I hear you Lee, when you question. And I have some questions now myself.
Carmen I get where you are coming from, I am listening and again you have raised valid points that I need to follow up on. 

I didn't start this thread to start a fight, I had questions. What some of you read as adversarial is just me playing devils advocate, leading to more questions. 

I can think of lots of breeders using untitled or minimally titled bitches. As someone pointed out in another thread, bitches are challenging to trial around heat cycles. 
As for crossing lines, why not? We have all seen great examples from different lines. The DDR/Czech thing has been going on for years. I didn't think I liked the WG lines, but I have found a couple recently that I love. ASL do nothing for me, but again I could pick out some really great ones.

After all the breeders that turned me away, I have found one who wants to get me the pup I want. Can we build on that? Give me the good, now that I have the bad. Or make other suggestions, but the health testing is not negotiable for me, ever. I will never have another DM dog in this house, period.


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## wolfstraum

Sabis, never thought you were adversarial....my comments are intended to provoke questions and research for the answers.

As far as mixing lines - ie, DDR, WG, Belgian, Czech, Dutch....look at the pedigrees of what I have bred....all are mixed origin lines....I imported a Belgian born female whose dam was WG whose sire was Czech.....wonderful wonderful wonderful producer and individual who was let go to the bridge last night  I also imported a Dutch born female of mostly WGR lines and an 8 week old female whose grandfather is a key dog in my program...I knew several paternal siblings of that female and the whole pedigree fit for my plans.

My last litter was roughly 25% each Czech, Belgian, WGR & DDR - with the dam being from my C litter which was WGWL crossed on a mostly DDR female...with a little dash of Czech & Belgian....look at the sires I used - all accomplished, all with some common elements in the back of the pedigrees....

I have never turned anyone away without cause or exploration. Sometimes it is over price - and given your friends aggressiveness, I suspect this may be an issue for you....but I always try to help! Sometimes I send them somewhere else, sometimes I will refer them to a rescue or even another breed...but I explore their needs and am honest about what I feel would work or not work for them...I would rather my pups go into good companion homes than into LE or hard core competition homes who wash out alot of dogs who end up who knows where....If I get one in a litter titled - I am very happy.

I hope you find someone to work with that clicks - but the antagonism and attitude of your friend would be a real turn off if a breeder was subject to that on your behalf.

Lee


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## Jax08

Sabis mom said:


> I will never have another DM dog in this house, period.



How can you be sure of that? From my understanding, the test is not all together trustworthy and German Shepherds may have a different "kind" of DM all together. So while it's great that some breeders are using this tool, it's not a 100% guarantee that the dog will not have DM.

I think between this test, and trusting your breeder to know the lines they are using, that you are stacking the deck in your favor but I don't think, with the current testing and knowledge, that anyone can say a dog will NOT have DM.


----------



## Sabis mom

Jax08 said:


> How can you be sure of that? From my understanding, the test is not all together trustworthy and German Shepherds may have a different "kind" of DM all together. So while it's great that some breeders are using this tool, it's not a 100% guarantee that the dog will not have DM.
> 
> I think between this test, and trusting your breeder to know the lines they are using, that you are stacking the deck in your favor but I don't think, with the current testing and knowledge, that anyone can say a dog will NOT have DM.


Ok. Let me rephrase then. I will never knowingly, or willingly, have another DM dog in this house. And I will never support a breeder who isn't testing for it. Good or bad, the test is our best defense at the moment. Am I saying that no DM positive dog should be bred? Not at all. I am saying that it provides us with the information to make choices. As Carmen pointed out many DM positive dogs will never become symptomatic. Sabi was nearing 13, some would say a full life anyway.

Lee, you and I spoke at some length about what I wanted, and my reasons for it. So you have good insight into what I want. It isn't difficult. I want a healthy, balanced dog, with moderate drive and the potential to be a working animal. I am not looking for a sport prospect, and I have zero interest in breeding. This breed was an all around dog, and that is what I want. No one can say for certainty that pup X will grow to this. We can say that at the time of assessment this pup displays these qualities. Eight weeks or so gives breeders a great insight into personality but nothing is written in stone.


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## wolfstraum

Sabi - I speak to alot of people....not sure when we spoke....I haven't had a litter since Oct of 2011....I have a long list of people wanting pups, which can change as people do find something in the meantime...I am not sure of who you are - ie when I spoke to you...or what I advised you....

Lee


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## atravis

I speak for a friend, who's difficulties I remember well and who I know has seen more than their fair share of heartache. I remember these conversations, the very first time Granville was a topic of conversation, and the person who recommended them, someone who's experience and knowledge Ive grown to respect tremendously.

But I also speak for myself, as I have seen you do this same thing on many threads Lee. Subverting any real criticism will little remarks or non-complaints about breeders I assume you've never actually dealt with, including my own. Which hey, I'm human, I admit to taking a degree of personal offense to.


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## wolfstraum

Lex - I have specific criteria in judging pedigrees, breedings and dogs. I apply those to myself - I apply them to anything I look at. I look up OFAs, SV ratings, kennel names on 2 databases...I comment on WHAT is asked and presented. I do not make personal attacks - such as you are doing - because that is against rules. What I hope is to make people think and look into their prospective breeders with a more educated eye. They can then decide what is an acceptable level of knowledge and history and make a more informed decision.

What I do not care for is people buying up a ton of dogs, breeding and selling puppies. I don't care what their kennel name is or who they are. They buy other people's work and use it for their own gain rather than get out there and do it themselves a few times. I have worked dogs, trained dogs, TITLED dogs that I then bred, and trained the next generation. I understand the difference between actually doing that and what you learn and just writing a check to buy a dog. Yes, I have bought a couple of dogs with titles...but those dogs got worked and titled again or to new levels. That is MY philosophical stance on ALL breeders - not just the one that was cited in beginning of the thread or a kennel showing up in someone's signature line. I have more respect for someone who does it...not buys it. Someone who does it is going to be truly knowledgeable and not just repeating information that someone who sold them a dog told them. If you do not like it, I really don't care. If you do not understand that words of caution are just that, then it is you who have some sort of problem. 

The personal little vendetta is over. Accept that what I say is what I mean, don't twist it and put words in my mouth.

Lee


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## carmspack

Atravis - you picked the wrong time. Lee has her own reasons for a heavy heart at the moment , where is your sensitivity .
When you asked an opinion on a pedigree and a given a description , which wasn't at all that good (as presented), that is all you have to go on.
The comments are open and honestly expressed. You wonder why some people don't bother with these "opinion pedigree " threads or take it to PM . 
On the thread there is opportunity to learn and to question, part of growth.


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## atravis

I have not attacked you, I did not like what you said and responded accordingly. When you said things I did not agree with or felt were unjust, I wanted an explanation. As you said that is how we "grow", right? So sorry if you dislike that attitude, I've found yours equally unapealing.

We are all looking for something different, in what we want, what we like. It's nice that you hold yourself to a certain standard. Excellent for you, so happy to hear


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> Atravis - you picked the wrong time. Lee has her own reasons for a heavy heart at the moment , where is your sensitivity .
> When you asked an *opinion on a pedigree* and a given a description , which wasn't at all that good (as presented), that is all you have to go on.
> The comments are open and honestly expressed. You wonder why some people don't bother with these "opinion pedigree " threads or take it to PM .
> On the thread there is opportunity to learn and to question, part of growth.


That is what I asked for. Not an attack on me, my friends or the breeder. I have your opinions, thank you for your input. At the end of the day I listen, learn and do what makes me happy. 
Female available from Schraderhaus, wonder if she might sell to me.
Always Boeslager, I think she has a litter coming up that I might like.

Lee, I am sorry for your loss, she sounds like a great girl. 

I am missing my great girl, and I want a puppy someday that might help fill that hole.


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## carmspack

What do you know about DM.


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## carmspack

that by the way is a sincere question.

I do remember your email being so absolute on the DM testing. 

Demands are made on the breeder , but the owner has to be equally responsible and active as a participant in preventing or mitigating health problems .


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> that by the way is a sincere question.
> 
> I do remember your email being so absolute on the DM testing.
> 
> Demands are made on the breeder , but the owner has to be equally responsible and active as a participant in preventing or mitigating health problems .


I know that it is caused by a genetic mutation, similar to the one that causes ALS in humans. I know that it is generally late onset 8 or older though cases as young as 6 have occurred. I know that the test is a bit disputed with GSDs as they suspect a different mutation with them and another breed? or something like that. I know that it is a diagnosis of elimination, and I know that even positive dogs may never become symptomatic. I know 8-12 months after symptoms present is usually the norm to euthanasia, Sabi made it 2 years. And I know that although treatments are being worked on, they have had limited success. I know that it is fatal and reputable vets are clear that treatments, diet and exercise may slow the progression, but nothing stops it.
I know that a while back someone suggested environmental causes, and if that is where you are going, it was soundly dis-proven. DM is genetic, nothing I did killed my dog.


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## Anubis_Star

You asked for advice on a pedigree. Lee gave you clear good advice. You didn't like the advice, so you turned hostile. If your mind is so made up on this bitch then why even ask? 

I thought some of the same things.... a dog that hard to handle and train, if the breeder can't handle the dog why is she breeding the dog?? That to me sounds like "hey, I have this dog, might be a good dog, I don't know, I'll just breed her." If you can't handle the dog then you have no idea what the dog is capable of, then how can you even begin to guess what she'll produce???

I'm not bashing on the breeder, I'm not judging her program because I didn't even look her up. I'm definitely judging this breeding choice, as from your description and the opinions of a few on her that I truly believe REALLY know what they're talking about, it doesn't sound like the best choice. It may produce gold. But since I doubt the breeder truly has a good idea on this breeding, that would probably be by luck alone.


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## Anubis_Star

If you keep getting turned away from breeders maybe you do need to reevaluate why? I contacted a breeder I had had my eye on for years, several times, never heard back. It sucked, I liked her male A LOT. But I found another breeder. And I got a dog I couldn't of asked for any better.


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## Sabis mom

Anubis_Star said:


> You asked for advice on a pedigree. Lee gave you clear good advice. You didn't like the advice, so you turned hostile. If your mind is so made up on this bitch then why even ask?
> 
> I thought some of the same things.... a dog that hard to handle and train, if the breeder can't handle the dog why is she breeding the dog?? That to me sounds like "hey, I have this dog, might be a good dog, I don't know, I'll just breed her." If you can't handle the dog then you have no idea what the dog is capable of, then how can you even begin to guess what she'll produce???
> 
> I'm not bashing on the breeder, I'm not judging her program because I didn't even look her up. I'm definitely judging this breeding choice, as from your description and the opinions of a few on her that I truly believe REALLY know what they're talking about, it doesn't sound like the best choice. It may produce gold. But since I doubt the breeder truly has a good idea on this breeding, that would probably be by luck alone.


I was not hostile, Lee raised some good points and I asked for more details. I don't take orders well, I want reasons for actions.
I am looking at the quote beneath your signature and think of a bitch that has good herding instinct and drive, loves lure coursing and shows amazing determination. I didn't say she was hard to handle, I said independent. That to me shows a lack of engagement with her handler and explains why she does well in things were she be independent. Very often certain dogs need experienced handlers to get them engaged. 

As far as getting turned away, I don't want a sport dog, don't want to trial. Sport breeders don't like that. I also didn't want the first available pup, I'm allowed to be picky, they don't like that either. Maybe I like a different bitch or stud better and would rather wait for that litter.
Lee would have sold me a pup, but didn't have anything definite planned so I kept looking.


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## lalachka

what did you say to get the Labrador comment lol? because everything you're listing sounds reasonable. I'd also want to be able to choose, might want a specific litter. I can't imagine people getting turned away for this, I think a lot of people want that


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## Lucy Dog

I spoke to quite a few breeders when I was looking for a puppy about two years back. I never got any of the responses the OP got and I'm a "pet home" per say. Some of the breeders were members on this board and some weren't. I think I didn't get response from one after a few emails/calls and the rest were very helpful and willing to discuss whatever questions I had. Not one was rude about anything.

I'm not a sport home. Never implied that I was one and not one held it against me. I really don't see what you could be asking that's making so many breeders flat out turn you down from what you've described here, but maybe I'm missing something.


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## Sabis mom

lalachka said:


> what did you say to get the Labrador comment lol? because everything you're listing sounds reasonable. I'd also want to be able to choose, might want a specific litter. I can't imagine people getting turned away for this, I think a lot of people want that


That may have been my bad, lol. I said I wanted an active family companion that was good with kids and would be ok in the bush, who could also be trained for stuff like detection, tracking, and the like.
Sometimes I speak before I think.


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## carmspack

Quote sabis "Breeder says the bitch is highly independent/challenging to train and does not thrive in a show/sport setting"
Quote sabis " I didn't say she was hard to handle, I said independent."

challenge to train and hard to handle seem pretty much the same to me.

DM - good topic for a thread of its own is auto immune , gradual degeneration of the myelin sheath .
some interesting quotes ------
"Myelin sheath degeneration is widely believed to be an autoimmune process in which the white blood cells attack the myelin sheaths as if they were a foreign substance. Stress and malnutrition (poor diet) often precede the onset of symptoms. There is also a hereditary factor involved"

from Dr Jean Dodds
"In veterinary medicine, evidence implicating vaccines in triggering immune-mediated and other chronic disorders (vaccinosis) is compelling

in full Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol

and this ......... from *R.M. Clemmons, DVM, PhD* 
*Associate Professor of Neurology & Neurosurgery* 
" diet may have a powerful influence on the development of chronic degenerative diseases and new information suggests that dietary regulation might play a more significant role in the progression and development of diseases like MS. Elimination of toxins from pre-processed food may assist in preventing a number of immune-related disorders. The current treatment of DM is designed to suppress the immune disease, but does nothing to correct the immune alterations which led to the disease state. Diet might help in correcting this defect and allow the immune system in DM dogs to stabilize. The principles of dietary therapy are outlined here, including a "home-made" diet. For those who cannot "cook" for their dog, the basic diet should be supplemented with the additional ingredients list below. It is best to choose a dog food which is close in protein content and is as "natural" as possible. Wild dogs were not meat eaters. They ate bodies, including intestinal contents (often laden with plants and plant materials). Dogs have evolved so that eating animal fats and protein do not cause them to suffer the same problems as human beings when eating these sources of saturated fats. Even so, dogs probably suffer from the same causes of dietary and environmental intoxication which affects human beings. "

in full Degenerative Myelopathy of German Shepherds

from Dr Clemmons quote "*There have been no long term studies conducted of the OFA/University of Missouri DM DNA Test to validate the designated status of tested dogs or the validity of the test, itself! Dogs declared *Clear* by the test have been found to have Degenerative Myelopathy (aka DM) upon necropsy, as well as *Carriers*, who are not supposed to develop DM, but possibly pass it on to the next generation"*

do you know what that means ?
Not quite so black and white - and Sabis who asserts that she will NEVER have DM again, when it can happen in spite of all safeguards , can create some problems down the road in the breeder / owner relationship.


----------



## Sabis mom

Carmen, your silly little digs are getting old. 

I asked for an opinion on a pedigree, not a critique on my life. 

These forum rules are definitely one sided. That was an insult and an attack on me. Insinuating that I killed my dog? Please. I am not that insecure,we are talking about a dog nearing 13 years of age who survived, mobile, almost 2 years after symptoms presented. Get over it already, not everyone has to bow down to you. However for that juvenile dig, rest assured I will listen to nothing you have to say ever again.

Stress speeds the progress, it does not cause DM, nor does poor diet. They may not help, but they cannot mutate genes. Sorry. It's hereditary.
The small number of negative tests on positive dogs are largely believed to be flawed tests or compromised sample collections, since they occurred very early on in the testing history. Are you looking for excuses not to test your own dogs? There aren't any.


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## lalachka

Sabis mom said:


> That may have been my bad, lol. I said I wanted an active family companion that was good with kids and would be ok in the bush, who could also be trained for stuff like detection, tracking, and the like.
> Sometimes I speak before I think.


I still don't see it. active companion, good temperament, want it trained in detection and tracking so you're working the dog. that's more than most pet homes do. 
I'm really hoping this isn't how breeders are.


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## carmspack

Sabis mom said:


> Carmen, your silly little digs are getting old.
> 
> I asked for an opinion on a pedigree, not a critique on my life.
> 
> These forum rules are definitely one sided. That was an insult and an attack on me.Please. I am not that insecure,we are talking about a dog nearing 13 years of age who survived, mobile, almost 2 years after symptoms presented. Get over it already, not everyone has to bow down to you. However for that juvenile dig, rest assured I will listen to nothing you have to say ever again.
> 
> Stress speeds the progress, it does not cause DM, nor does poor diet. They may not help, but they cannot mutate genes. Sorry. It's hereditary.
> The small number of negative tests on positive dogs are largely believed to be flawed tests or compromised sample collections, since they occurred very early on in the testing history. Are you looking for excuses not to test your own dogs? There aren't any.


Sabis your reply is the most absurd thing I have ever read . 
" Insinuating that I killed my dog?"

I provided information , food for thought , from the leading researcher , Dr Clemmons , and Dr Jean Dodds , illustrating that things are not that clear cut .

Oh and by the way I have done DNA tests for DM on my dogs .


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## Anubis_Star

I again, see no digs against the op yet hostility in response? Please do not take everything so personally. Your description of this bitch keeps changing as people are questioning the worthiness of the bitch. 

If you love her so much, as you obviously do, take a pup from her and have what you have.

Lala - I have never encountered breeders I would deem good that have consistently been rude and turned homes down for such trivial reasons. I'm not saying it didn't happen for the op, I didn't look in canada, I'm in America and shipped within america. But I think most have a fine time finding good breeders and purchasing a pup


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## ksotto333

Maybe some breeders even if they test for DM are concerned about the black and white nature of your statement. Saying you will never have a dog with DM. It may come across wrong in how you are discussing it. You can do your best,take all the right steps and something can still go wrong. Another member on this board just went through two totally separate issues with two different dogs...that would be so hard to deal with. The breeders may be getting the wrong vibe..I'm sorry for your Sabi,she sounds like she was a wonderful companion and partner..


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## carmspack

quote sabis "we are talking about a dog nearing 13 years of age who survived, mobile, almost 2 years after symptoms presented."

that is an excellent age ! 
I bet there are many who wish they had their pet as long . 
The reality is that all that live will eventually face the inevitable and perish . 

quote Dr Clemmons "The gross pathologic examination of dogs with DM generally is not contributory toward the diagnosis"

That tells me that there may be more than a few dogs assigned a diagnosis of DM , when it is not the case .

For a proper diagnosis a necropsy should have been done .

quote Dr Clemmons " The 2-dimensional electrophoresis of CSF proteins appears to be one of the most specific change seen in DM. Recently, we have found that CSF levels of the enzyme, acetylcholinesterase, are elevated in patients with DM. Again, this occurs in other forms of central nervous system inflammation in dogs. However, when combined with the history, neurologic signs, CSF protein concentration and EMG, the elevated CSF acetylcholinesterase level helps confirm the diagnosis. This allows the inclusion of DM in the diagnosis, even if other problems are uncovered during the examination. "

opening a DM file -- if anyone wants to continue the investigation of this immune related problem in the GSD


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## carmspack

not at all straight forward - not black and white 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/192047-dm-test-one-2.html


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## holland

why in the world would someone do a necropsy on the pet -I would rather put my money into trying to keep them healthy when they are alive...


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## Sabis mom

Anubis_Star said:


> *I again, see no digs against the op yet hostility in response? Please do not take everything so personally. Your description of this bitch keeps changing as people are questioning the worthiness of the bitch*.
> 
> If you love her so much, as you obviously do, take a pup from her and have what you have.
> 
> Lala - I have never encountered breeders I would deem good that have consistently been rude and turned homes down for such trivial reasons. I'm not saying it didn't happen for the op, I didn't look in canada, I'm in America and shipped within america. But I think most have a fine time finding good breeders and purchasing a pup


Quoting a 10+ year old study that blames environmental factors, and has since been disproved is not a dig at me? Really?
And I made an error in my initial post that I later corrected, I have not kept changing my description. 

Every breeder that I have spoken to was clear that I would not purchase from untested stock. No more, no less. Because flawed or not,_ it's what we have to work with at this time_

I asked for opinions because outside of one bloodline, I have little experience with pedigrees. Basically I wanted the back story. What type of dog have these lines produced? 

I got good info on another of her dogs that is sufficient to make me question his use, however his pups seem to be collecting titles at a rapid rate so I will dig further into the bitches he has been bred to and follow the pups. 

This particular match has already produced one litter, that from all accounts are growing up nicely. And oddly it was not the bitch that I was wary of, it was the stud. When I initially contacted the breeder this bitch was to be bred to a different stud who I quite liked. I emailed his owner and was really pleased with her input. I was quite put out when the stud was changed, and it was enough to make me hesitate. Now there is a chance that she will not be bred again, so I have continued looking. 
As I stated, I want the right pup, not a pup right now. And perhaps my hesitation is coming across. But I cannot afford to make a mistake, because I have never given up on any dog, so I will be stuck with what I get for life good or bad. I am not an expert, not a trainer. I need to be sure that I have a good shot at a pup that I can build a life with, and I hesitate at the sport breeders because I doubt my ability to handle a 'sharp' dog. Difficult I'm ok with, challenging is fine, but I cannot have a dog that is reacting to everything.
Do you understand now?


----------



## Anubis_Star

Sabis mom said:


> Quoting a 10+ year old study that blames environmental factors, and has since been disproved is not a dig at me? Really?
> And I made an error in my initial post that I later corrected, I have not kept changing my description.
> 
> Every breeder that I have spoken to was clear that I would not purchase from untested stock. No more, no less. Because flawed or not,_ it's what we have to work with at this time_
> 
> I asked for opinions because outside of one bloodline, I have little experience with pedigrees. Basically I wanted the back story. What type of dog have these lines produced?
> 
> I got good info on another of her dogs that is sufficient to make me question his use, however his pups seem to be collecting titles at a rapid rate so I will dig further into the bitches he has been bred to and follow the pups.
> 
> This particular match has already produced one litter, that from all accounts are growing up nicely. And oddly it was not the bitch that I was wary of, it was the stud. When I initially contacted the breeder this bitch was to be bred to a different stud who I quite liked. I emailed his owner and was really pleased with her input. I was quite put out when the stud was changed, and it was enough to make me hesitate. Now there is a chance that she will not be bred again, so I have continued looking.
> As I stated, I want the right pup, not a pup right now. And perhaps my hesitation is coming across. But I cannot afford to make a mistake, because I have never given up on any dog, so I will be stuck with what I get for life good or bad. I am not an expert, not a trainer. I need to be sure that I have a good shot at a pup that I can build a life with, and I hesitate at the sport breeders because I doubt my ability to handle a 'sharp' dog. Difficult I'm ok with, challenging is fine, but I cannot have a dog that is reacting to everything.
> Do you understand now?


I didn't take it as a dig at you. I took it more as simply showing that nothing is 100% even with testing. I agree though I only look at dogs tested for HD and DM because it IS all we have. That and looking at what the lines have produced. But I never once thought it was a dig at you "obviously YOU killed your dog because YOU fed it a cookie with corn in it that one time"


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## DaniFani

Sabis mom said:


> Quoting a 10+ year old study that blames environmental factors, and has since been disproved is not a dig at me? Really?
> And I made an error in my initial post that I later corrected, I have not kept changing my description.
> 
> Every breeder that I have spoken to was clear that I would not purchase from untested stock. No more, no less. Because flawed or not,_ it's what we have to work with at this time_
> 
> I asked for opinions because outside of one bloodline, I have little experience with pedigrees. Basically I wanted the back story. What type of dog have these lines produced?
> 
> I got good info on another of her dogs that is sufficient to make me question his use, *however his pups seem to be collecting titles at a rapid rate* so I will dig further into the bitches he has been bred to and follow the pups.
> 
> *This particular match has already produced one litter, that from all accounts are growing up nicely.* And oddly it was not the bitch that I was wary of, it was the stud. When I initially contacted the breeder this bitch was to be bred to a different stud who I quite liked. I emailed his owner and was really pleased with her input. I was quite put out when the stud was changed, and it was enough to make me hesitate. Now there is a chance that she will not be bred again, so I have continued looking.
> As I stated, I want the right pup, not a pup right now. And perhaps my hesitation is coming across. But I cannot afford to make a mistake, because I have never given up on any dog, so I will be stuck with what I get for life good or bad. I am not an expert, not a trainer. I need to be sure that I have a good shot at a pup that I can build a life with, and I hesitate at the sport breeders because I doubt my ability to handle a 'sharp' dog. Difficult I'm ok with, challenging is fine, but I cannot have a dog that is reacting to everything.
> Do you understand now?


The part in bold>>>That's all fine and dandy, however the point I think you are missing is there is a certain KIND of breeder that people wish to *support*. That breeder is working their dogs *themselves*. They are titling and gaining experience *themselves*, this type of breeder isn't letting puppy buyers and past generation owners do all the work. This type of breeder can "handle" their dogs, so they know what the fight drive is like, what the defense drive, prey drive, natural suspicion, hunt drive, nerve threshold, environmental threshold etc...This type of breeder most support, can see all these things, have tested and worked all these things, they don't encounter or breed dogs they can't handle (or need more "experience" to handle). 

I guess a better question for those with successful breeding programs, wouldn't be "did you start somewhere? Were there times you had less experience?" THose are easy and obvious questions. The questions I would consider more pertinent are, "in the beginning of your program did you have dog's you couldn't handle? Didn't understand? Weren't comfortable working in your chosen venues? And did you in turn breed those dogs regardless, and if so why? Did you bring in someone you trusted that could handle the dog, and give you an honest opinion? Or did you just breed to 'see what happens' " Those are the questions that, imho, would be more helpful in this situation.

Honestly the descriptions the BREEDER gave you of the female, are lack luster, concerning, and confusing, to me. I don't understand why a breeding would take place when those are some of the best "qualities" that a breeder is discussing. I want to hear about the drives, the temperament, the nerve thresholds, etc...When the breeder is using the terms you used, it not only doesn't make me interested in the dog, it makes me wonder what the heck the breeder is doing. Apparently it left a lot of people with those thoughts.

I tend to agree with those saying you are definitely exaggerating and somewhat twisting other's words to make them then seem like an attack. I don't see anyone getting defensive and attacking except for those that initially brought the question to the forum, or those vehemently defending against others they have a personal vendetta against. 

You keep saying you're sorry, you don't mean to come off defensive, or to take it personally and then you go right on to take the next thing extremely personally (how someone takes a study personal is confusing to me). I understand you went through a loss with your past dog. That doesn't change people's opinions of pedigrees, breeders, and dogs. 

ETA: I also don't understand when people get defensive of a breeder they haven't even bought a puppy from yet. But, I also don't understand people getting in a tizzy over other's opinions about their their dog's pedigree, breeder, abilities, "realness", etc... 

It's my DOG, it isn't me, it isn't an extension of me, I'll do everything I can with him/her, hope I can meet the goals I hoped to meet, and doing all this while striving to support the standards of morals and ethics I agree with. I don't care what joe shmoe or any random person thinks. I try to invest my "caring" in what people say, strictly to those I am close with and care about.


----------



## Anubis_Star

DaniFani said:


> The part in bold>>>That's all fine and dandy, however the point I think you are missing is there is a certain KIND of breeder that people wish to *support*. That breeder is working their dogs *themselves*. They are titling and gaining experience *themselves*, this type of breeder isn't letting puppy buyers and past generation owners do all the work. This type of breeder can "handle" their dogs, so they know what the fight drive is like, what the defense drive, prey drive, natural suspicion, hunt drive, nerve threshold, environmental threshold etc...This type of breeder most support, can see all these things, have tested and worked all these things, they don't encounter or breed dogs they can't handle (or need more "experience" to handle).
> 
> I guess a better question for those with successful breeding programs, wouldn't be "did you start somewhere? Were there times you had less experience?" THose are easy and obvious questions. The questions I would consider more pertinent are, "in the beginning of your program did you have dog's you couldn't handle? Didn't understand? Weren't comfortable working in your chosen venues? And did you in turn breed those dogs regardless, and if so why? Did you bring in someone you trusted that could handle the dog, and give you an honest opinion? Or did you just breed to 'see what happens' " Those are the questions that, imho, would be more helpful in this situation.
> 
> Honestly the descriptions the BREEDER gave you of the female, are lack luster, concerning, and confusing, to me. I don't understand why a breeding would take place when those are some of the best "qualities" that a breeder is discussing. I want to hear about the drives, the temperament, the nerve thresholds, etc...When the breeder is using the terms you used, it not only doesn't make me interested in the dog, it makes me wonder what the heck the breeder is doing. Apparently it left a lot of people with those thoughts.
> 
> I tend to agree with those saying you are definitely exaggerating and somewhat twisting other's words to make them then seem like an attack. I don't see anyone getting defensive and attacking except for those that initially brought the question to the forum, or those vehemently defending against others they have a personal vendetta against.
> 
> You keep saying you're sorry, you don't mean to come off defensive, or to take it personally and then you go right on to take the next thing extremely personally (how someone takes a study personal is confusing to me). I understand you went through a loss with your past dog. That doesn't change people's opinions of pedigrees, breeders, and dogs.
> 
> ETA: I also don't understand when people get defensive of a breeder they haven't even bought a puppy from yet. But, I also don't understand people getting in a tizzy over other's opinions about their their dog's pedigree, breeder, abilities, "realness", etc...
> 
> It's my DOG, it isn't me, it isn't an extension of me, I'll do everything I can with him/her, hope I can meet the goals I hoped to meet, and doing all this while striving to support the standards of morals and ethics I agree with. I don't care what joe shmoe or any random person thinks. I try to invest my "caring" in what people say, strictly to those I am close with and care about.


I don't think anyone else has said it better.

Read it and take it in. If you come off to breeders like you're coming off on here there may be reasons you're being turned down. You can never learn if youre not told and shown the right way, but don't cut down decades of experience and knowledge because they don't say what you want to hear.

From a completely unbiased and uninterested point of view, I never once saw someone cut you personally down. Or even this breeders program. I saw this pedigree questioned for FAIR reasons that have been explained numerous times. I saw the breeders reasonings behind this particular breeding questioned, again for FAIR reasons that were stated. By multiple people, likely from very different paths in life. 

If the only common equation in continuing problems is a single person, perhaps they need to not point fingers at everyone and instead evaluate their own actions and behavior.


----------



## Sabis mom

Handle themselves, gain experience themselves, how does one gain experience and learn? I guess you were all born perfect. 
I know the first dog I was handed to work with was into 'rough learning', he bit me every time I gave him an unfair correction or missed his cue. I learned, quickly. I also understand that a lot of people would have handed him back. Trainers can only teach so much, sometimes you need to skin your elbows. 

Either way, Lee gave me some things to check into and brought up some valid points. Cliff has given me some food for thought, and a few others raised some valid points. And none of them had to tear me up to do so. 

I said I needed health testing, it is not negotiable for me. It wasn't me who needed to push that point. It was you all that needed to belabor the point and pick me apart for it. According to the logic here, no dog of unknown parentage or unproven stock should exist. This begs the question how did any of these dogs get here?

I will say this one more time, I asked for an opinion on a pedigree. That's it.


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## Anubis_Star

How do you even come to the logic that people said on here dogs of unknown origin should not exist?? You really do like to twist everything to come to your own conclusion. You should start actually quoting people to back up the things you think you see in their advice.

Long story short - people gain experience by handling and training dogs first. THEN they venture into breeding once they know dogs and know the lines, etc. They don't just gain experience by throwing random dogs together and seeing what happens. I don't understand why experience needs to be gained by breeding.

It seems like most people on here would NOT approve of this breeding because it seems like it's commonly felt by most that this breeder has no business breeding a dog she can't handle, because she obviously has no idea what the dog will produce. Take it or leave it. So either listen to the advice on here and move on to a different breeding, or stick to what it seems you really want to do and get a pup from this breeding


----------



## Sabis mom

DaniFani said:


> The part in bold>>>That's all fine and dandy, however the point I think you are missing is there is a certain KIND of breeder that people wish to *support*. That breeder is working their dogs *themselves*. They are titling and gaining experience *themselves*, this type of breeder isn't letting puppy buyers and past generation owners do all the work. This type of breeder can "handle" their dogs, so they know what the fight drive is like, what the defense drive, prey drive, natural suspicion, hunt drive, nerve threshold, environmental threshold etc...This type of breeder most support, can see all these things, have tested and worked all these things, they don't encounter or breed dogs they can't handle (or need more "experience" to handle).
> 
> I guess a better question for those with successful breeding programs,* wouldn't be "did you start somewhere? Were there times you had less experience?" THose are easy and obvious questions. The questions I would consider more pertinent are, "in the beginning of your program did you have dog's you couldn't handle? Didn't understand? Weren't comfortable working in your chosen venues? And did you in turn breed those dogs regardless, and if so why? Did you bring in someone you trusted that could handle the dog, and give you an honest opinion? Or did you just breed to 'see what happens' " Those are the questions that, imho, would be more helpful in this situation.*
> 
> Honestly the descriptions the BREEDER gave you of the female, are lack luster, concerning, and confusing, to me. I don't understand why a breeding would take place when those are some of the best "qualities" that a breeder is discussing. I want to hear about the drives, the temperament, the nerve thresholds, etc...When the breeder is using the terms you used, it not only doesn't make me interested in the dog, it makes me wonder what the heck the breeder is doing. Apparently it left a lot of people with those thoughts.
> 
> I tend to agree with those saying you are definitely exaggerating and somewhat twisting other's words to make them then seem like an attack. I don't see anyone getting defensive and attacking except for those that initially brought the question to the forum, or those vehemently defending against others they have a personal vendetta against.
> 
> You keep saying you're sorry, you don't mean to come off defensive, or to take it personally and then you go right on to take the next thing extremely personally (*how someone takes a study personal is confusing to me)*. I understand you went through a loss with your past dog. That doesn't change people's opinions of pedigrees, breeders, and dogs.
> 
> ETA: I also don't understand when people get defensive of a breeder they haven't even bought a puppy from yet. But, I also don't understand people getting in a tizzy over other's opinions about their their dog's pedigree, breeder, abilities, "realness", etc...
> 
> It's my DOG, it isn't me, it isn't an extension of me, I'll do everything I can with him/her, hope I can meet the goals I hoped to meet, and doing all this while striving to support the standards of morals and ethics I agree with. I don't care what joe shmoe or any random person thinks. I try to invest my "caring" in what people say, strictly to those I am close with and care about.


These are good questions and when I tried to ask I was ignored.

How am I taking a study personally? Because there was no need to bring it up, no relevance to my question. The only reason to mention it was as a dig at me.


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## Sabis mom

Anubis_Star said:


> How do you even come to the logic that people said on here dogs of unknown origin should not exist?? You really do like to twist everything to come to your own conclusion. You should start actually quoting people to back up the things you think you see in their advice.
> 
> Long story short - people gain experience by handling and training dogs first. THEN they venture into breeding once they know dogs and know the lines, etc. They don't just gain experience by throwing random dogs together and seeing what happens. I don't understand why experience needs to be gained by breeding.
> 
> It seems like most people on here would NOT approve of this breeding because it seems like it's commonly felt by most that this breeder has no business breeding a dog she can't handle, because she obviously has no idea what the dog will produce. Take it or leave it. So either listen to the advice on here and move on to a different breeding, or stick to what it seems you really want to do and get a pup from this breeding


That I understand. Obviously if I was 100% comfortable, I wouldn't have asked.


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## David Winners

It shouldn't be this hard to help someone. 

I have read this thread several times and fail to see how you come to your conclusions. 

People with decades of breeding experience, handling experience, training experience, that have regularly placed dogs with law enforcement and have dogs that consistently title, are offering advice that you asked for, are providing information that can help you understand their point of view, and you twist what they say to fit your idea of a personal attack. 

These people have far better things to do than pick an Internet fight with you.


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## Sabis mom

David Winners said:


> It shouldn't be this hard to help someone.
> 
> I have read this thread several times and fail to see how you come to your conclusions.
> 
> People with decades of breeding experience, handling experience, training experience, that have regularly placed dogs with law enforcement and have dogs that consistently title, are offering advice that you asked for, are providing information that can help you understand their point of view, and you twist what they say to fit your idea of a personal attack.
> 
> These people have far better things to do than pick an Internet fight with you.


Well, let me see. I thanked Lee for her input and asked for more detail, which she kindly provided. 
Jax took a statement I made and questioned it, I revised my statement to make people better understand. 
I made an error in my initial post and corrected it a few posts later, sorry but I am human.
I have repeatedly asked for opinions on the pedigree only.
Carmen specifically pulled an out dated, dis-proven study, and said 'Demands are made on the breeder , but the owner has to be equally responsible and active as a participant in preventing or mitigating health problems'. 'Not so black and white now'
Most of these replies have been helpful and I am certain that I have said thank you several times. 
So I am really unclear why I keep getting attacked, and at this point I am wondering why I even bothered.
So with all due respect sir, I am not sure I was the one being difficult.


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## David Winners

:thumbup:


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## BahCan

I've been following this thread from the beginning and I think I must be reading something different than the OP because I fail to see where the OP is coming up with these personal attacks and digs on them. I guess my interpretation is different than the OP's.


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## Anubis_Star

You can only lead the horse to water


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## wolfstraum

To be fair - from my perspective, it was not Sabis mom attacking me and twisting what I said....it was one or maybe 2 other people, one who is a personal friend of her apparently.....Have not gone through all 10 pages of discussion to see if this is where the 2nd adversarial person was...but in the last few days there were 2 who got very personal with me....

And heck - all I said was that there was nothing to go on as the pedigree was so scattered in type/inconsistent and little credentialed...nothing to base an opinion upon.

David - thanks for the objectivity.

Lee


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## atravis

Sorry if you felt attacked by me.

I questioned you about health testing done on your dogs, expressed that I did not like things you said _publicly_ on a _public_ forum (of which I openly admitted to having personal beef with, as some of those things I did not like were said in regards to my own breeder, though admittedly on another thread not relating to this one... apologies for that), and that I didn't like your attitude. 

If that's an affront on your character, I'm sorry. Seems more like an internet tiff, and a mild one at that, to me, but we all see things differently as many have pointed out in this thread. 

I have since seen your last thread, Lee, and I'm sorry for the loss of your dog. That's always a difficult thing to deal with.


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## Sabis mom

So, I do listen and I have been looking. 
Lee, first of all I am sorry for the loss of your girl. Second thank you again for your honest words. I took a closer look at the pedigree what I see are that up to 2-3 generations back all the dogs and most of the bitches were titled, SchH3 across the board. With Boeslager the titling stopped. This makes me think of a breeder selling on past success. I agree, I don't think thats right.
Now when it comes to Granville, I see 'lesser' titles and certifications. Obedience, tracking, herding instinct, etc. _But I do see the attempt_ and I see it ongoing to this day. I give her credit for that. She hasn't given up.

V Hurican von den Wölfen x VD Bára z Ronbaru
So what would this pair likely produce? To much dog for me?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Just got off the field doing "sport" at a new location, new helper, different method of work. Beginning to inject control into the work. Pressure on the dog from me, pressure on the dog from helper, pressure from environment etc. 
I have lived with this dog for 13 months and have trained with her just about every day since 12 weeks. I have taken her everywhere and STILL I learn more about the truth of who she is at her core, her strengths and weaknesses as we progress. There is an underlying theme that is there but the intracasies are still revealing themselves.
This knowledge is just as important to the decision of whether or not to breed this bitch as health testing or pedigree.

Two of these items can be bought, one must be EARNED. 

There is no subsitute for working your dog in a multiple phases. You dont know your dog until you have worked it, or until you have worked and achieved success with multiple dogs enough that you can truly read what is infront of you. 

No Im not talking about AKC fun stuff, I am talking about work that truly puts pressure on the dog / handler team from multiple sources. 

All that being said your essentially bringing out a pedigree that leaves the reader in doubt of what type of nerve / drive the pups will have. Whether you like it or not were there is smoke there is fire. 

Why not put all this to rest by showing the dogs being discussed doing some protection with a little control thrown in? That would be interesting.


----------



## volcano

I visited and almost bought a pup from Berlin. I wound up getting Apache from somewhere else.


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## wolfstraum

Sabis mom said:


> So, I do listen and I have been looking.
> Lee, first of all I am sorry for the loss of your girl. Second thank you again for your honest words. I took a closer look at the pedigree what I see are that up to 2-3 generations back all the dogs and most of the bitches were titled, SchH3 across the board. With Boeslager the titling stopped. This makes me think of a breeder selling on past success. I agree, I don't think thats right.
> Now when it comes to Granville, I see 'lesser' titles and certifications. Obedience, tracking, herding instinct, etc. _But I do see the attempt_ and I see it ongoing to this day. I give her credit for that. She hasn't given up.
> 
> V Hurican von den Wölfen x VD Bára z Ronbaru
> So what would this pair likely produce? To much dog for me?


Sabis - than you for your condolences - losing a horse whose family I have had for 4 generations and over 40 years compounded by the loss of a very very very beloved dog .....

As far as commenting on the pedigree?? I will pass....your friend finds my morals and ethics objectionable. 
Lee


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## Sabis mom

Lee, I was a horsewoman first. I understand that loss as well. Much as we complain that our dogs don't live long enough, the problem with horses seems to be that they live so long we believe they will always be there.

As for the second pedigree, I understand your hesitation. I respect that. What I am trying to do is determine if those lines are going to produce a dog that is to much for me to handle. I have looked at many breeders and have several possibilities at this point. Looking at spring or summer of 2015 at this point, since I won't ship a pup up here in winter. Not looking at the kennel so much as the lines.


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## Blanketback

Sabis mom, there was an interesting thread on the pedigreedatabase forum just recently that you might want to read. The titles was "Would you breed a DM carrier" and the conversation was an eye-opener for me. When I read through this thread, that's the first thing I thought of when I saw Carmen's 'not so black and white' comment - that this test in particular might not help us in the GSD community. You might want to take a look over there, and see what other breeders are saying about it - since it's obviously very important to you, I thought I'd mention it. Good luck with your puppy search


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## Sabis mom

Blanketback said:


> Sabis mom, there was an interesting thread on the pedigreedatabase forum just recently that you might want to read. The titles was "Would you breed a DM carrier" and the conversation was an eye-opener for me. When I read through this thread, that's the first thing I thought of when I saw Carmen's 'not so black and white' comment - that this test in particular might not help us in the GSD community. You might want to take a look over there, and see what other breeders are saying about it - since it's obviously very important to you, I thought I'd mention it. Good luck with your puppy search


I am aware of the percentages, and the argument over validity. I have never advocated the removal of carriers or even at risk from the gene pool. I simply believe that like xrays the test should be used as a tool for making responsible decisions. Since it is cheap and non-invasive there is no reason not to test. More tools in the toolbox, so to speak. I am also aware that many at-risk dogs will never show symptoms, but the odds increase with age. Since this test is the best we have for now, I believe it should be used.

All I can guarantee is that I will not buy a pup that tests at risk. Probably not even a carrier. Maybe I will still get hit, maybe not, but I will not go begging for a problem.


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## Blanketback

The point is, that the test itself is debatable. Apparently there was a German study that debunked the test, but since there was no link provided I can't say one way or the other. That info may have come from a different site too, not PDB. I can't remember. Just saying: if the test itself isn't an indication of anything...what good is it? Is it a marketing ploy? What is it, if it can't be relied upon?

Also, if DM is hitting geriatric dogs, then most people will never know. I'm impressed and jealous that you were able to see 13 with your darling, and wonder if I'd been so blessed, would I have encountered DM too? Don't take anything I say as anything other than my own personal musings, since I'm not a breeder, vet, researcher, or anything like that. I'm just curious about the health in general of our beloved GSDs.


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## Sabis mom

The validity of the test may be questioned, the disease is not.

I am a member of the Finding A Cure website, where I am able to stay current on research. I also submitted Sabi's DNA sample for analysis to the DM research project, and we have no proof that she was a purebred GSD. I guess they can sort that out, lol. Personally? I don't care anymore, I just want to live long enough to see a cure, or at least an answer.
It is my greatest wish that I never see another dog go out this way, or another humans heart shatter watching it.
I opted to keep my journey with Sabi semi public, on another forum, to maybe give someone else answers, or at least the comfort of knowing they are not alone. It was this sad journey that atravis got to see-along with my battle with Miss Shadow,lol-so if she seems a bit defensive it is only because she watched me get brought to my knees, repeatedly and keep getting up. I gave people a front row seat to my devastation. 
Losing any dog is heartbreaking, watching one get devoured one muscle, one nerve cluster at a time is doing it one hundred times over. In the end when ever stumble, ever fall, every sad look tore my soul apart I opted to put us both out of our misery. I have lost a few dogs suddenly, it's harsh. This one I planned, and in the end I just wanted to go with her.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Personally I am not bothered to much once the dog makes to 11. 

Once a dog makes it to that age does it really matter what takes its life past that point? After 11 they tend to slow down a heap and seem to enjoy life a lot less then they did when younger.


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## Blanketback

I agree, Blitzkrieg. I say this with the utmost respect, and don't mean to offend anyone with my comments, but past a certain age...there's a number of things that can go wrong, and it's assured that if it's not one thing then it will certainly be another. Look at us humans - it's very very rare to see someone past a certain age without some sort of health issue, no matter how well they've taken care of themselves.


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## Sabis mom

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Personally I am not bothered to much once the dog makes to 11.
> 
> Once a dog makes it to that age does it really matter what takes its life past that point? After 11 they tend to slow down a heap and seem to enjoy life a lot less then they did when younger.


Except that Sabi did not want to slow down. She hated retirement. She lived to walk at my side, to watch my back. I am grateful for the time I got with her, but she deserved and earned a retirement she never got to enjoy.
I do understand your point, I just think it was a crappy way for my beautiful warrior to go out.


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## martemchik

I think Blitz's point was with the life expectancy of our breed, anything past a decade are bonus years.

My breeder has a girl who's over 10, clearly slowed down, and due to them having other dogs, she doesn't get the attention she once did. It's also borderline dangerous to ask her to still do bitework or other physical activities. It's just what happens with dogs. What many don't realize, is that that dogs don't want to lay around all day doing nothing. Their idea of retirement isn't like ours.

Also...not going against what OP said, but we tend not to notice our dogs slowing down when it happens gradually. It took getting a second dog into my household to truly see how much my boy has matured over the past few years, and how he is an adult dog now rather than the crazy puppy I remember (and he's only 4).


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## carmspack

from page 8 "
quote sabis "we are talking about a dog nearing 13 years of age who survived, mobile, almost 2 years after symptoms presented."

carmspack
"that is an excellent age ! 
I bet there are many who wish they had their pet as long . 
The reality is that all that live will eventually face the inevitable and perish . "

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

What if your next dog hips clear ancestry , DNA for DM clear , has some other malady, let me pull out hemangiosarcoma , then what ?

If you had known the breeder of your dog that passed , what would you have done?


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## martemchik

I don’t get why people are so hung up on the fact that OP values having a DM clear/DM clear dog. It’s not the end of the world. It’s also not that difficult to find a pair that is properly titled, has a pedigree that would work for OP, and is also DM clear. The questionable part on the first litter option is that the dog isn’t titled and the OP makes it sound like the health test for DM is more important than the working titles which prove the dog. This is partially due to the fact that OP had a dog from questionable lineage that worked just fine and is willing to take a risk on a dog from an “unproven/untitled” pair, but isn’t willing to take the risk when it comes to DM because their dog came down with it.

It’s really not hard to see where OP is coming from and why she has the views she does. I think a better thing would be to send OP options for breeders/upcoming litters that anyone knows of, and can vouch for, that meet all of OP’s requirements (which really aren’t that farfetched, as all I see is some working ability and DM clear parents).


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## Sabis mom

carmspack said:


> from page 8 "
> quote sabis "we are talking about a dog nearing 13 years of age who survived, mobile, almost 2 years after symptoms presented."
> 
> carmspack
> "that is an excellent age !
> I bet there are many who wish they had their pet as long .
> The reality is that all that live will eventually face the inevitable and perish . "
> 
> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> What if your next dog hips clear ancestry , DNA for DM clear , has some other malady, let me pull out hemangiosarcoma , then what ?
> 
> If you had known the breeder of your dog that passed , what would you have done?


Carmen, with my luck, that is exactly what I expect. Never the less, I will stack the deck as best I can in my favor.

Are you asking about Sabi? If the person responsible for her existence had been human and not a slug, I would have given them her test results and suggested that they test their stock. At the end of the day I cannot controll the actions of others, only my own


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## Sabis mom

martemchik said:


> I don’t get why people are so hung up on the fact that OP values having a DM clear/DM clear dog. It’s not the end of the world. It’s also not that difficult to find a pair that is properly titled, has a pedigree that would work for OP, and is also DM clear. The questionable part on the first litter option is that the dog isn’t titled and the OP makes it sound like the health test for DM is more important than the working titles which prove the dog. This is partially due to the fact that OP had a dog from questionable lineage that worked just fine and is willing to take a risk on a dog from an “unproven/untitled” pair, but isn’t willing to take the risk when it comes to DM because their dog came down with it.
> 
> It’s really not hard to see where OP is coming from and why she has the views she does. I think a better thing would be to send OP options for breeders/upcoming litters that anyone knows of, and can vouch for, that meet all of OP’s requirements (which really aren’t that farfetched, as all I see is some working ability and DM clear parents).


Wow! Thank you, can we do that?


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## Blanketback

Martemchik, the only reason I brought it up is because some people believe that "DM clear" is a meaningless label. Why would it be wrong, to point that out? If it helps OP...if there are GSDs out there that have tested clear, and yet are verified to have DM upon necropsy...what does that say, and how much emphasis should we put on the test/test results? I'm honestly asking, not being snarky. I followed the PDB thread with actual interest and curiosity.


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## martemchik

My issue with the testing is when we question or try to educate the consumer on what should/shouldn’t be important to them.. Who cares what testing is important to people, as long as the other things that most of us hold as important are also looked at. It’s kind of dumb to be trying to convince a person that a DM test is worthless…it’s not. It gives some information. I’d also like to know exactly what % of the time the test is wrong, I’m sure there has to be some sort of false negative/positive % that is acceptable in the medical field (this being animals it’s probably much higher than a human rate).

The way I see it…OP cares about the working ability, they want a dog that comes from titled parents/proven ability to work. They care about hips, and on top of that they care about a DM test. So what? It’s not impossible to find a paring in the United States that has all that. OP isn’t looking for a PARTICULAR line, or an exact color. They want a dog that works, and is DM cleared.

This is like when I’ve been attacked/questioned about the fact that I’d refuse to buy a puppy from titled parents that have fair or lower OFA rated hips. Yeah…I wouldn’t. There are plenty of pairs out there with titled parents that have excellent/good hips. So why would I sell myself short when I can have a puppy out of that kind of a pairing for the same price that gives me the same type of working ability that I’m looking for.

At the end of the day, A LOT of breeders these days do DM testing. It’s true, it’s super cheap and almost a joke of an expense compared to the other stuff a reputable breeder will do with their dog. So why not look for one that does it? Testing for DM and titling up to IPO3 aren’t mutually exclusive, so it’s not a trade-off…it’s just and extra tick mark.

It’s as if due to the fact that this person’s checklist has “extra” boxes on it that some of us don't possess, they’re just as wrong as the person that has no boxes on their checklist except for a brown/black dog with pointy ears. I mean, just step back and realize what you're lecturing OP about...it's really kind of mind boggling.


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## Blanketback

Whoa, "lecturing OP"??? If you want to blow this way out of proportion, go ahead - but I'll say it once more, so maybe you can see where I'm coming from: if the test isn't reliable, why are people putting faith in it? That's my only question. It has nothing to do with OP's concerns, really. I just wonder if it has any value, as far as GSDs go. Many people seem to think "Not" and that's all I'm wondering about. Or do you think we should also be testing for feline diseases too?


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## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> Whoa, "lecturing OP"??? If you want to blow this way out of proportion, go ahead - but I'll say it once more, so maybe you can see where I'm coming from: if the test isn't reliable, why are people putting faith in it? That's my only question. It has nothing to do with OP's concerns, really. I just wonder if it has any value, as far as GSDs go. Many people seem to think "Not" and that's all I'm wondering about. Or do you think we should also be testing for feline diseases too?


I'm not saying YOU are the only one. But combined, look at the posts. How would you feel if a bunch of people were trying to tell you how something you thought was important, really shouldn't be, and they know more than you do...blah blah blah.

I also haven't seen a single post that has linked to a medical study about the reliability of a test. You yourself have brought in a discussion on a separate forum...I guess that's accurate information? A bunch of other people discussing hearsay that they've read somewhere or heard somewhere, or they have experienced it in one of the three dogs they've owned in their lifetime (I guess that makes one an expert).

Also...check out the post about how someone's young dog has diabetes...all the advice is to get a second opinion...did anyone question the validity of the necropsy that showed the dog had DM? Was there a second opinion? Or do we just pick and choose when a second opinion is important and when it isn't?


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## Blanketback

All I did, was mention an interesting discussion that some other GSD breeders were having, that I thought OP would be interested in. Uh, why again was that wrong? I was very upfront on my lack of expertise, but if you want to hold it against me, go right ahead. And nope, no links either - like I also mentioned. But anyone can use google to advance their own educational needs, right?

ETA: alright, I get it. For _some_ reason, this can't be an educational discussion. Fine.


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## martemchik

Blanketback said:


> ETA: alright, I get it. For _some_ reason, this can't be an educational discussion. Fine.


The reason being...this was a thread started about a pedigree. Not about "Is the DM test valid?"

If you want to try to disprove the validity of a test that is accepted by a lot of people, including the OFA, based on a highly reputable source like the pedgireedatabase forum, be my guest, start another thread. The point of my posts was that when you do it in someone's thread that is asking about a certain breeding, you're basically trying to teach them that what they're looking for isn't important. It's not an education discussion, it's a, "why do you even care about this?"

There are a lot worse things OP could care about that we could be "teaching" about than the fact that they want both parents to be DM clear. It's not going to put any breeder out of business because OP wants a pair to be DM clear and they didn't test their dogs (even if their reasoning is acceptable and most people on this forum would accept it).


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## Blanketback

Actually, I don't think there are any forum rules about posting information that another member might think has value to the OP? If there is, then oops, I'm sorry. 

As for me trying to disprove the validity of the test, please quote where I've come right out and said the test is crap. Because that certainly wasn't my intent.


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## Merciel

martemchik said:


> I think a better thing would be to send OP options for breeders/upcoming litters that anyone knows of, and can vouch for, that meet all of OP’s requirements (which really aren’t that farfetched, as all I see is some working ability and DM clear parents).


I agree, but I'm also at a bit of a loss as to who to recommend. I don't know any Canadian breeders and presumably the OP is already well familiar with the breeders who have a high profile on this forum (either because they're members here or because people have and advocate for their dogs). Also, other than Lee and Carmen, I don't know who's already been contacted. Maybe the obvious names have already been tried.

So it's tough to make recommendations. I feel like anything I might say is something that would already be so obvious that it wouldn't be worth mentioning. I'm guessing that might be part of why there haven't been a ton of people throwing out kennel names in this thread.


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## atravis

** post removed by ADMIN. It served no purpose and was posted to incite conflict.**


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## lhczth

OP, if you are worried about DM I would find a breeder with a long history with their lines and not rely solely on the DM DNA test.


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## Anubis_Star

I too don't understand where this thread is going. As someone that works with specialists, I feel the DM test DOES have very real validity. Yes, there can be false "clears". But more likely than not a dog that tests clear for DM likely IS clear for DM. Be realistic when buying a pup that no matter the health testing, that pup could end up with ANY disease, including DM. But your chances are greatly reduced, IMO, through tested parents.


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## Sabis mom

Will everyone just stop! Whether anyone likes or dislikes it I am not buying a pup that doesn't have tested parents, I also want hips and elbows tested. Yes I get that life is one giant crap shoot. I also don't have to buy the blue shirt, or the brown truck. I can choose feather instead of foam for my pillows. I'm the one with the money.

Blanketback-most of the false negatives occurred in the early days of the test, and the whopping .04% or whatever it is now are widely believed to have been _errors in collection, or contaminated tests_. The numbers were taken from _total_ tests, not broken into breeds. I read the discussion you spoke of. It was a bunch of owners and breeders debating, but did you take a good look at the pics of the dog posted? Incidentally, I know two people personally who were mis-diagnosed with cancer, and my cancer was missed, _3 times_! Mistakes happen. 

I asked for an opinion on a pedigree, I listened, I posted another pedigree. I respected Lee's wish to stay out of it. If y'all don't like my choices what are yours?


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## G-burg

> Will everyone just stop! Whether anyone likes or dislikes it I am not buying a pup that doesn't have tested parents, I also want hips and elbows tested. Yes I get that life is one giant crap shoot. I also don't have to buy the blue shirt, or the brown truck. I can choose feather instead of foam for my pillows. I'm the one with the money.


 It's a no brainer to me... If that's what you want then hold out until you find it.. There are plenty of good breeders testing for it and who have had no issues within there lines.. 

My very first shepherd I had, way back when, was diagnosed with DM. Among other health issues.. You learn along the way not to settle for less.. That's why I think it's so important to go with a breeder that has a program.. That way they know what their lines have produced over the years..


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## onyx'girl

I agree with Leesa. A breeders program speaks for itself. Longevity of the lines they are breeding bring transparency. When a breeder is willy nilly breeding all sorts of dogs with no real foundation line, nor working(or titling) their dogs but resting on the laurels of the past pedigree titles isn't a program that I would be interested in.


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## Galathiel

I'm not getting into the back and forth. My pup's (well, he's 16 months old but he's the pup) parents were both DM clear, OFA exc (dam) OFA good (sire), normal elbows, thyroid, patellas.

The thing I want to address from one of the OP's posts was 'not minding an independent dog'. Let me tell you from experience, independence can also translate into no willingness to please, not particularly biddable, and a real struggle to get the dog to work WITH you. My GSD is extremely intelligent, very strong-willed and does not care about pleasing anyone but himself hehe. He is not motivated at all by praise and that's been a real struggle for me as I've never had one that did not care .. at all...about that. I thought independence sounded good too ... until I live with it. He has good food and ball drive, but I've never had to use that solely to motivate a dog before. And I don't like it.  I'm hoping he will mature into wanting to partner more, but if I had it to do over .. that's NOT a trait I would pursue, particularly for a pet dog.


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## Liesje

FWIW I know the breeder in question and have met the bitch the OP was originally talking about. OP if you want my honest opinions, PM me, I won't get into it here.


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## Sabis mom

I wanted a puppy. I have this hole in my heart. I don't what a sick dog, I don't want a screwy dog. I just want a dog. I have not rushed, I have not given in to the 'puppy impulse'. I went through 2 years of agony with Sabi and now I have to face the fact the Bud is 12 and will not live forever. Which will just leave me and the unstoppable Shadow.
One of the things people commented on all her life was Sabs 'old eyes'. She had that blend of gentle strength and ancient wisdom that just caught you. When I see the same thing in another dog I want it. It may not be rational, I cannot really explain it. If you have seen it you know. Since I cannot trace Sabs origins, I don't know what lines may produce a similar dog. 
So experts, rather then tell you what I want let me tell you about Sabi. She never fussed even as a pup. She trained easy but you better not ever give her a command. She accepted a partnership, but was never a servant. She reasoned things out for herself. She was loyal, hardworking and determined, she never quit. I do not recall her ever being a 'puppy'. She was rock solid steady right from the start. Her eyes held wisdom and secrets. She was fond of cocking an eyebrow at me if I did something dumb, then she would flip her head and walk away. She adored young things, if it was a baby and it needed, she was there. She hated discord in her home and would tell you so. She was big, 82lbs at 2 years old in working trim. Solid bone, front legs as big as my wrists and a neck big enough to bury your face in. Her coat was thick and soft. She hit like a freight train, and had a solid, full bite. Fearless but always fair. I never saw an ounce of mean in her, in fact she was social and adored making new friends as long as they were not near me. She was protective with great discrimination ability. When I put on my uniform she would sit by the door and vibrate, she loved to work. She was smart, too smart , and able to learn from mistakes without any direction. We had to carry her off a track after an hour because she would not give up, ever. And she whined when tracking. She pouted when she felt wronged. And she died with her head in my lap, steady and strong to the bitter end. 
Can you help me find another one? Because I miss her and by my logic she came from somewhere so there must be more like her. I understand that she can never be replaced, believe me. But I want all the same qualities that made her so great, in a healthy dog.


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## Sabis mom

Really???


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## Merciel

Sabis mom said:


> Really???


I don't know what you want anyone to say here.

That is a heartfelt tribute to a much-loved dog, but no one can tell you where to find another dog like that, because there _is_ no other dog like that except one whose owner is willing to see her that way.

Essentially that description reads to me as: "find me a dog that I can love."

It's an impossible order. No one can find love for somebody else.

I'm just impressed that so far no one's had the temerity to pretend otherwise.


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## Sabis mom

Merciel said:


> I don't know what you want anyone to say here.
> 
> That is a heartfelt tribute to a much-loved dog, but no one can tell you where to find another dog like that, because there _is_ no other dog like that except one whose owner is willing to see her that way.
> 
> Essentially that description reads to me as: "find me a dog that I can love."
> 
> It's an impossible order. No one can find love for somebody else.
> 
> I'm just impressed that so far no one's had the temerity to pretend otherwise.


Your post made me cry. I miss her so desperately it's hard to even wake up every day.

I will try to simplify this then.

I need rock solid temperament, good health, trainability but not necessarily biddability, intelligence and working instinct. 
Is that better?


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## McWeagle

This whole thread has made me cry. Sabis mom, I'm so sorry for your loss. 

I completely understand your stance on wanting your next puppy to come from DM clear parents. To me, that test is just as important as having the hips and elbows x-rayed. I just got a puppy, and I made sure that his sire and dam were both DM clear and both had A-1/excellent hips and good elbows, and I checked longevity on all dogs I was able to trace. It's not a guarantee but it sure helps stack the deck in your favour. I did end up going with a WGSL though, which from what I understand isn't what you want.

I saw you mention Schraderhaus earlier - have you been in contact with them? I think they do DM testing.

Hold out for what you want. You'll find a pup to love again, and one that will love you right back. Your new little pup will come along at the right time. It's just hard to wait.


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## Sabis mom

We conclude that the SOD1:c.118A allele is widespread and common among privately owned dogs whereas the SOD1:c.52T allele is rare and appears to be limited to Bernese Mountain Dogs. *We also conclude that breeding to avoid the production of SOD1:c.118A homozygotes is a rational strategy.*

Just for the nay sayers, here is the link to the entire article and it was released in Feb 2014
Breed Distribution of SOD1 Alleles Previously Associated with Canine Degenerative Myelopathy - Zeng - 2014 - Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library


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## Sabis mom

McWeagle said:


> This whole thread has made me cry. Sabis mom, I'm so sorry for your loss.
> 
> I completely understand your stance on wanting your next puppy to come from DM clear parents. To me, that test is just as important as having the hips and elbows x-rayed. *I just got a puppy, and I made sure that his sire and dam were both DM clear and both had A-1/excellent hips and good elbows, and I checked longevity on all dogs I was able to trace. It's not a guarantee but it sure helps stack the deck in your favour*. I did end up going with a WGSL though, which from what I understand isn't what you want.
> 
> I saw you mention Schraderhaus earlier - have you been in contact with them? I think they do DM testing.
> 
> Hold out for what you want. You'll find a pup to love again, and one that will love you right back. Your new little pup will come along at the right time. It's just hard to wait.


Thank you for supporting testing.

And thank you for your kindness, I'm sorry if I made you cry. I will wait as long as I have to for the right puppy. 


Thank you to everyone who pm'ed me as well. Rest assured that all dogs in my home are well loved, even those with issues.


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## carmspack

Not to trivialize DM in any way , there are more pressing spinal problems in GSD . 
I was looking for a video which I have provided that raises the alarm about lumbar stenosis.

Inbreeding----" T he wolves on Isle Royale are suffering from genetically deformed bones. Scientists from Michigan Technological University blame the extreme inbreeding of the small, isolated wolf population at the island National Park in northern Lake Superior.


Researchers have collected the first scientific evidence that inbreeding has caused genetic deterioration of the bones of the wolves of Isle Royale. Rolf Peterson and John Vucetich of Michigan Tech and their colleagues, Jannikke Raikkonen of the Swedish Museum of Natural History and Michael P. Nelson at Michigan State University, report on the congenital bone deformities in the latest issue of the journal _Biological Conservation_. The work is supported in part by the National Science Foundation.
The scientists found that 58 percent of the wolves on Isle Royale exhibit a congenital malformation in the lumbosacral region or lower back, and 33 percent display a specific deformity—lumbosacral transitional vertebrae—which can cause full or partial paralysis of the rear legs and tail, as well as back pain. It is a condition also seen in domestic dogs. Other malformations were found in the wolves as well.
For the last 12 years, every one of the dead wolves the researchers have found has displayed bone deformities. In contrast, these deformities occur in only 1 percent of studied wolf populations that are not inbred.
"Until recently, we didn’t know if the inbreeding was causing problems for the wolves," says Vucetich."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O39-KcW60fs

the discussion starts at point 9:26 - the vet joins in shortly . Unfortunately it is in German but there is enough visual material to allow some understanding .

This is serious stuff . Young dogs are affected . 
There is no "test" , no one asks about it .


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## carmspack

http://gsdca.org/german-shepherd-dogs/education/2012-dm-seminar 

Dr Joan Coates presents --- 2012 DM Seminar from Dr. J. Coates This seminar was presented at the 2012 GSDCA National Specialty Show by Dr. Joan Coates, DVM, MS, Diplomate ACVIM (Neurology), Professor of Neurology & Neurosurgery, Department of Veterinary Medicine and Surgery.


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## John C.

Hi Sabis Mom. Your posts really hit a nerve with me. I lost my beloved Cosmo last year. Initially he was mis-diagnosed with DM. However, when we took him to a specialist and an MRI was performed, it turned out to be a disc injury to his back. The effects were still the same, even after surgery he was unable to walk, and eventually he started losing control of his bowls. It was incredibly difficult and not something I would ever want to go through again.

We did get a new puppy about 3 months ago, in part because we missed Cosmo so much. Being in a similar position to you, I do have a word of warning - no dog will ever replace the dog you lost and it is unfair to compare the new puppy to your old dog because he will always come up short. My memory of Cosmo was that he was almost perfect right out of the box. We did a fair amount of obedience when he was younger and it seemed like I never had to give him a correction. Once he understood what you wanted him to do, he was happy to do it. And he loved and was totally focused when we did training.

The new puppy is an obedience challenge. He will obey you and pay attention. Except if it's hot. Or he's tired. Or he's bored. Or there's an interesting smell on the ground. Or a butterfly flutters past. And while Cosmo was always calm indoors and willingly went into his crate on command, the puppy is a hellion in the house and has to be cornered and captured before he will grudgingly go into his crate.

Of course, I'm sure I've forgot what Cosmo was like as a puppy. And Cosmo was dog aggressive and could be sharp around people. And when riding in the car had to bark at every single person we drove past.

My point is that every dog is a unique individual, with pluses and minuses. It is unfair to compare one dog to another. And especially unfair to compare an untrained and immature puppy to the happy memories you have of his mature, fully trained predecessor.


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## Sabis mom

John C. said:


> Hi Sabis Mom. Your posts really hit a nerve with me. I lost my beloved Cosmo last year. Initially he was mis-diagnosed with DM. However, when we took him to a specialist and an MRI was performed, it turned out to be a disc injury to his back. The effects were still the same, even after surgery he was unable to walk, and eventually he started losing control of his bowls. It was incredibly difficult and not something I would ever want to go through again.
> 
> We did get a new puppy about 3 months ago, in part because we missed Cosmo so much. Being in a similar position to you, I do have a word of warning - no dog will ever replace the dog you lost and it is unfair to compare the new puppy to your old dog because he will always come up short. My memory of Cosmo was that he was almost perfect right out of the box. We did a fair amount of obedience when he was younger and it seemed like I never had to give him a correction. Once he understood what you wanted him to do, he was happy to do it. And he loved and was totally focused when we did training.
> 
> The new puppy is an obedience challenge. He will obey you and pay attention. Except if it's hot. Or he's tired. Or he's bored. Or there's an interesting smell on the ground. Or a butterfly flutters past. And while Cosmo was always calm indoors and willingly went into his crate on command, the puppy is a hellion in the house and has to be cornered and captured before he will grudgingly go into his crate.
> 
> Of course, I'm sure I've forgot what Cosmo was like as a puppy. And Cosmo was dog aggressive and could be sharp around people. And when riding in the car had to bark at every single person we drove past.
> 
> My point is that every dog is a unique individual, with pluses and minuses. It is unfair to compare one dog to another. And especially unfair to compare an untrained and immature puppy to the happy memories you have of his mature, fully trained predecessor.


So sorry for your loss, it really is heartbreaking to watch them go out like like.

I would never compare a pup to Sabi, I just want the breed qualities that made her so awesome. I thought a pup would fill some of the emptiness here. The two I have are great but they are not capable of being my constant companions as Sabs was, and I miss that.


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## Kathrynil

I took a look at the pedigree and I noticed that they were breeding what looks like show line dogs to working line dogs. I'm wondering: is it normal to breed working line dogs to show line dogs? I'm sorry if I sound naive. It's probably because i am.  I haven't studied up much on the whole "lines" thing.


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