# I don't get it



## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Why is it when someone comes to this section and askes about breeder recommendations, someone will probably ask, "What lines?"

I talked to a breeder, asked them about the lines and to break it down. 

My point is, isn't a working dog a working dog?

I mean, if someone comes here and says,
"I am a police officer and we're looking for a breeder that produces dogs that sniff out drugs." (Not saying a police officer would say that, but just giving an example)

Why does someone respond, "What lines?" Why does it matter? I'm sorry, I just don't get it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My guess is that different working lines have a variety of different characteristics that might make the choice of one over another for a particular application better.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

People have a mental picture of what kind of dog they want. Really.

So even though many of them say 'I want the best GSD for finding drugs' if I gave them a breeder who only breeds White GSD's and that doesn't fit their mental picture, then the nose of the dog won't matter.

The other thing has to do with people's background and experience. Cause though they may SAY they want a working line dog, if this is the first puppy they've ever had/trained/raised, it may turn out to NOT be what they wanted at all......

Fact of the matter is, when I talk to people who want a GSD and mention 'what lines are you interested in' and they look at me like I have 2 heads and am suddenly speaking a foreign language, I know these same people need to do a whole lot more research. Cause if they don't know about the different lines, I've found they also don't know all the health and temperament issues in the breed, and that the trip they were making to the pet store to pick up their new puppy may want to be put off.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

I see, so it's like fruit.

There are many different types of fruit. A person can say, "I want a bright colored fruit." But can they handle a strawberry? Is the strawberry for them? I think I understand it better now. Thank you guys.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

GSD Fan said:


> I see, so it's like fruit.
> 
> There are many different types of fruit. A person can say, "I want a bright colored fruit." But can they handle a strawberry? Is the strawberry for them? I think I understand it better now. Thank you guys.


Or.....
It's like someone saying they want an apple. 

Do they want a tart green apple or a sweeter one? 
Do they want an apple with a crispy crunch or one that's softer and easier to bite into with their dentures. 
Tough skin or easy to chew? 
Large apple or small apple? 
Bright green, red, or red and yellow?

So that's it. GSD's are like apples. Who knew??


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## saucy2011 (Feb 1, 2011)

there are good and bad dogs in every lines and dogs that can perform every task in just about every lines so yeah it is a littly silly it is more on the breeder and the dogs they breed JMHO


certain lines do tend to hold certain characteristics more often so they become known for it but in reality those characteristics can be present in all of the lines


like some may say czech dogs may be more serious and meant for personal protection police

and west german for serious sport schutzund, but in reality both of these bloodlines can often be used in either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Or a brownie.

Do you want a gushy soft one?
Do you want frosting?
Do you want a harder one?
Do you want it speckled with powdered sugar?
Do you want walnuts in it?
Do you want an illegal substance in it? 

Some brownies are not for just anyone. 

I think GSDs are more like brownies.
They are naturally attractive to all but a few weirdows.
You can tell they are there when you open the front door.
They come in a bunch of varieties.
Some of them can get you into trouble.
But mostly, they are simply enjoyable.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Ok, this is why..
Breed Types & Related Families


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Because different lines have different physical and temperament traits that are quite consistent within those lines. An ASL, WGSL, and WL all not only look very different, but have very different personalities in most cases. It's rather sad from many angles that the breed is so fragmented and split like this, but it's a fact of life.

And since most breeders focus on one of those types, knowing what type when someone is looking for a breeder sure makes giving suitable recommendations easier. A bunch of recommendations to show or pet breeders isn't going to really be helpful for someone wanting to do SchH or, in your example, looking for a K9. Likewise, ASL recommendations to someone wanting to do German conformation showing, or WGSL recommendations for someone wanting to do AKC conformation, or in most cases WL recommendations for either aren't going to be very helpful.

So when someone asks looking for a breeder, this is naturally the first question to ask for many people. Because finding out what type fits into their personality, lifestyle and goals is rather important when it comes to recommending breeders.

I don't see too many cases like you posted akin to a police officer looking for a K9 getting questioned on lines, because with that particular goal the line is sort of predetermined. But I see a lot of people saying they want a GSD, not providing much more info than that, in which case of course it is natural for people to try to narrow it down to what type would be best suited (or as is often the case, make sure the person understands there ARE different types with vastly different traits) so they can even know what sort of breeder to look at.


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## irongrl (May 24, 2010)

selzer said:


> Or a brownie.
> 
> Do you want a gushy soft one?
> Do you want frosting?
> ...


 
That is a great analogy!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

selzer said:


> I think GSDs are more like brownies.
> They are naturally attractive to all but a few weirdows.
> You can tell they are there when you open the front door.
> They come in a bunch of varieties.
> ...


that, was awesome. Would you mind if I reposted it?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

No, but please spell weirdos correctly.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I posted it as my facebook status, my mom replied "whats a GSD?" lmao


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> People have a mental picture of what kind of dog they want. Really.
> 
> So even though many of them say 'I want the best GSD for finding drugs' if I gave them a breeder who only breeds White GSD's and that doesn't fit their mental picture, then the nose of the dog won't matter.
> 
> ...



I think things also have to have relevance for people also, Maggie. I see the titles underneath the names of several folks here and even if I actually knew what all of them meant, it would still have to mean something to me. 

So, "X" dog is titled in this or that ... well, that's cool and all ... for the owner ... but if I'm not involved in that and don't care about it ... what relevance does that have for me? 

If someone has a champion horse, great "lines", etc., they are proud of their animal and its titles, but if I just enjoy taking my horse for a rides through the woods ... I just don't "care" about their champion horse. It doesn't mean anything to me. Not that it doesn't mean anything, just that it doesn't to me. 

Probably not explaining this very well, so I hope you get my meaning.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you want a shutzhund dog, get a dog from someone who breeds dogs who compete in shutzhund, someone who has schutzhund champions even.

If you want a dog to title in herding, get a pup from someone who does it, either someone who raises the dogs to work sheep, or someone who competes with their dogs. 

But if you just want a companion, some would say get a dog from people who have great pets. 

I agree that the dogs should be excellent pets, but they should be more than just pets. Titles are not the end all, but they do tell you some stuff.

They tell you that the dogs used for breeding this pup can be trained to a certain level, and can manage to do what is required in a show atmosphere. It also tells you that the owners of the breeding pair are serious about producing dogs that can function under a variety of situations. That they are serious about the breed. That they are serious about training. 

So it does give you something, and you can also go back to this breeder with questions and problems. A lot of companion breeders, might not have a clue -- not about showing, but about behavior and training issues.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hi. An officer / department looking for a sniffer dog (or whatever) wouldn't ask about the lines . Show me the dog . Does IT work . It is the breeder that has an interest in the lines -- the strengths of peculiarities of the line . The breeder then has information with which to plan and anticipate success in producing this kind of dog which will be of interest and successful to the officer/department . Reduce the risk of failure , increase the rates of success.
Lines do matter. There are different maturity rates for one example.
Some lines are strong and active in aggression, some might be an accumulation of quick reactive dogs , others have high thresholds and require great pressure and threat to push them over into aggression but when they are there -- they are for real. 
Some lines area built on stubborn dogs in the background, some that are lack lustre in obedience. 
Conversely some lines are developed for high biddability or carry bloodlines with high hunt and search. 

I wish more people would ask about the lines rather than ask if the dogs are black and red . .. black and tan ...


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> I agree that the dogs should be excellent pets, but they should be more than just pets.


All right...Then what should they be??? How much *more* should they be? Frankly, (& honestly), the VAST majority of the SL dogs are less, much less, never mind 'more'...Soooo, should everyone seek a PERFORMANCE titled WL GS?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I don't think everyone should seek a performance titled dog, but when talking about a shepherd it should be a dog capable of receiving a title in one working venue since they are a working breed right? Doesn't mean you have to title your dog just that breeders are creating shepherds with the ability to title

As to why people ask about specific lines not everyone is looking for the same thing in a shepherd. Beyond showline German or American, and working line East and West German the dogs used to create the pup are going to be known for varying qualities within these specific lines. Some will have more prey drive, some more defensive drives, different threshold levels, and therefore are better suited to different households and venues. If people are into show lines and we recommend working kennels we are not really helping


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

What the various lines tell you is that the chances of getting a dog that can do the indicated work (conformation, ScH, HgH, police, etc.) well is significantly higher than if you got a dog from BYB(esp.!) or another "line". It is certainly NOT a guarantee that the dog will do well! 

And of course you can also get a great ScH dog from US show lines, or a really mellow laid back calm non reactive or protective dog from top rated ScH champion WL parents. Not likely, but possible due to the wonders of genetics and environment!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

RubyTuesday said:


> All right...Then what should they be??? How much *more* should they be? Frankly, (& honestly), the VAST majority of the SL dogs are less, much less, never mind 'more'...Soooo, should everyone seek a PERFORMANCE titled WL GS?


why are you digging on SL dogs? There are plenty of people with SL dogs on this forum, and to make a statement that they are less, much less -- what does that mean???

Sorry, I sure hope I am just taking that statement wrong.

I have taken conformation classes with one of my dogs. That is tougher than obedience, rally, and even agility classes (which I also took with this same puppy). 

Why diss the showline dogs? Does it make working line dogs better somehow to put down showline dogs?

Whatever. 

My point is that it is perfectly fine to have a dog who is not trained or titled in any venue, but if you are going to a breeder, the breeder should be doing something more with their dogs than just having them as pets. 

Breeders should be a part of the dog-scene, they should be involved with a breed club or a training club, they should have some good training experience. Titles of some sort on their breeding stock gives you a pretty good indication that they are. 

Seeing mom and pop in their home, does not really give an excellent indication of what the breeding animals are like. It only indicates what they are like in their home environment. Dogs that manage to get titles, have to manage to follow instructions in a noisy environment full of people and dogs.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Sue, I'm curious as to exactly *what* they s/b doing. In & of itself I have nothing against conformation showing, but it certainly hasn’t assisted in the improvement of a single breed I can think of. Indirectly, these popularity contests/beauty pageants have in fact contributed to the demise of numerous breeds, GSD among them.




> Seeing mom and pop in their home, does not really give an excellent indication of what the breeding animals are like. It only indicates what they are like in their home environment. Dogs that manage to get titles, have to manage to follow instructions in a noisy environment full of people and dogs.


I live in a noisy, raucous urban environment that's rife with domestic disputes, screaming kids, posturing teens, crime & gunfire. Being able to function in the noisy, busy, but generally convivial show environment, is no real test of the demeanor, nerve, adaptability & judgment I require from my dogs. Experienced show & performance dogs should usually be well within their comfort zone at competitive events.

Am I 'dissing' SL dogs? The majority of GSDs I've seen in all breed AKC shows are ghastly examples of dogs in general & certainly NOT representative of what any decent working dog should be. Apart from appearance, many are lunging, snarling maniacs when crated, & spooky, shy, cringing nerve bags on lead. At one show every GSD, EVERY SINGLE ONE, snipped at the judge. Naively, I initially thought perhaps this was desirable behavior in the breed until I overheard Mal & Terv exhibitors buzzing about how bad GSDs have gotten. The situation is so tragically wrong that I rarely bother to watch them anymore. I don't know whether to cry or scream.

I rarely get far from home (Eastern Iowa), which limits my AKC conformation exposure, but the pix I've seen in books, magazines & websites confirms that extreme angulation is prevalent among the most successful ASL & the extreme roaching is wildly popular with the GSL. Posts on various boards indicate serious health & temperament problems are tragically common.

Frankly, I’m convinced the vast majority of SL, both ASL & GSL, are an unmitigated mess & probably beyond fixing. However, that's not meant to indict all of 'em, it really isn't. Many members on this board, including SL fanciers, also seem appalled at what succeeds. I've heard nothing but good about Alta Tolhaus(sp?) & Andaka's GS. The pix I've seen of your GSDs show moderate, nicely proportioned dogs & I can't imagine you'd ignore health & temperament. However, I don't think the breeders striving for balanced structure in healthy, sound, long lived GS is the norm among SL breeders, especially the breeders who are most deeply involved in the show world. 

IMO, newer breeders should be active within breed events b/c of the wealth of education & contacts available. This is (IMO) considerably less important in experienced, knowledgeable, established breeders. Show & performance venues are rarely a rigorous assessment of temperament & they utterly ignore heath & longevity. I'm at least as impressed with breeders who personally work their dogs & whose dogs are fully integrated into their busy, varied lives as I am with breeders that title their dogs, especially when those titles consist of ribbons/titles awarded in beauty pageants.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I am curious as to how many of the folks on this forum have actually shown GSD's in the conformation arena? And if they have shown in both all-breed and speciality shows (these can be quite different events for a number of reasons).

I would say that, in many an all breed show, many if not most, of the dogs are also family dogs that live in a house with their family. Some of them are not even from SL (whatever that actually means).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Just had Boardwalk KC all breed show at Wilwood, NJ last week. Our training director(who is Dobe breeder of old German lines), and I were there to support a club member who has a Dobe that finished. Anyway, we looked at the GS ring and I was looking for that moderate sound tempered dog that I have been told permeates the All Breed ring as opposed to the Specialty ring. I will only say that we had to leave halfway through the judging as dogs were put up repeatedly that should have been disqualified for unsoundness in temperament. Afterwards, he looked at me and said," Hey I know the working ability of the Dobes doesn't exist in show Dobes, but the German Shepherds may be worse!! There was nothing for me to say as we both witnessed the same thing. I am not bashing the dogs, just relaying what we saw exhibited in the ring.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to how many of the folks on this forum have actually shown GSD's in the conformation arena? And if they have shown in both all-breed and speciality shows (these can be quite different events for a number of reasons).
> 
> I would say that, in many an all breed show, many if not most, of the dogs are also family dogs that live in a house with their family. Some of them are not even from SL (whatever that actually means).


I have shown west German show lines and west German working lines in the AKC puppy breed ring, UKC breed ring and UKC non-licensed classes (altered and puppy), and WDA/USA/SV ring including one Sieger Show so far (which I guess is more of a "specialty" since it is only GSDs). My two GSDs of age are both UKC Champions. My youngest dog is not even old enough to show for points but already has blue ribbons for Novice Puppy (UKC non-licensed class for puppies). My German show line dog so far has the best color and pigment, best coat, and best movement as far as being dry and not loose. My German working line bitch is my most balanced mover. My German working line male puppy I believe will end up with the best coat and so far has the best front/shoulder as far as what *I* am looking for in my dogs (and that matters more to me than what any judge or fellow exhibitor thinks). The bitch I show in the UKC altered class. My show line male is done showing unless I decide to show him again after he finishes Schutzhund titles. The working line male puppy I wanted to enter in the USA Sieger Show but we are closing on our first home. I hope to show him in the UKC ring in March for points (he will be old enough).

In UKC and AKC I have observed the same as cliff, seeing dogs put up that clearly displayed temperament issues (tucked tail, ears flat, excessive calming signals, shying away from the judge and sometimes even the handler/owner).


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

selzer said:


> Or a brownie.
> 
> Do you want a gushy soft one?
> Do you want frosting?
> ...


And all this time I thought Forrest Gump was a fictional character.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Just had Boardwalk KC all breed show at Wilwood, NJ last week. Our training director(who is Dobe breeder of old German lines), and I were there to support a club member who has a Dobe that finished. Anyway, we looked at the GS ring and I was looking for that moderate sound tempered dog that I have been told permeates the All Breed ring as opposed to the Specialty ring. I will only say that we had to leave halfway through the judging as dogs were put up repeatedly that should have been disqualified for unsoundness in temperament. Afterwards, he looked at me and said," Hey I know the working ability of the Dobes doesn't exist in show Dobes, but the German Shepherds may be worse!! There was nothing for me to say as we both witnessed the same thing. I am not bashing the dogs, just relaying what we saw exhibited in the ring.


That doesn't sound very good! How many GSD's were shown in the show? 

Sometimes it may make a difference who the judge assigned to do GSD's in the particular day affecting how many and who enters their dogs.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

codmaster said:


> I am curious as to how many of the folks on this forum have actually shown GSD's in the conformation arena? And if they have shown in both all-breed and speciality shows (these can be quite different events for a number of reasons).
> 
> I would say that, in many an all breed show, many if not most, of the dogs are also family dogs that live in a house with their family. Some of them are not even from SL (whatever that actually means).


 
I have shown at both all-breed and specialty shows. I have been to numerous Nationals and have exhibited dogs there. I have also exhibited at Westminster. My dogs are family dogs and live in the house. Many have also been therapy dogs and visited people in the hospital, nursing homes, and participated in children's programs such as "read to the dog" and "bite prevention".


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Sounds like what GSD's should be! Congrats!


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Sounds like what GSD's should be! Congrats!


They are, but what is your point?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Andaka said:


> They are, but what is your point?


No Point! What was yours?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

There are Show dogs who have iffy temperaments. It is really not nice to see. The lines are not real varied and it can be difficult to get consistent good temperament production going. The show ring doesn't ask that much of temperament, so if it is bad there....uhoh.

I have not shown a lot, but have been involved to some degree over the years. Of the shows I have been to lately, the judges have been pretty much sticklers on temperament. At least to the degree it can be assessed in that ring. I have seen several dogs dismissed. Others put to the back for temperament fault. Must be function of the particular judge, of course.

Can the temperaments be consistently mproved within the restricted lines themselves? 
Not sure how much. 


From my limited experience, temperaments have improved. But there was lots of weakness needing betterment. There are still iffy dogs being exhibited.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I show my WGSL in conformation at SUV shows and he is also a house dog, he is of great mind and temperament, I hardly think the temperament problems within the breed are limited to the " show" lines, just look at the aggression threads
here, are all these dogs with aggression and nerve problems all showline bred dogs? I have 4, not one has a bad temperament, they are great watch dogs, trustworthy on the trails with me, and yet, gentle and friendly to any guests of my home, I agree that temperament and soundness of mind is not the breeding priority it should be, but this is hardly a problem exclusive to showlines, I've seen plenty
of wacky out of control working lines as well.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> Just had Boardwalk KC all breed show at Wilwood, NJ last week. Our training director(who is Dobe breeder of old German lines), and I were there to support a club member who has a Dobe that finished. Anyway, we looked at the GS ring and I was looking for that moderate sound tempered dog that I have been told permeates the All Breed ring as opposed to the Specialty ring. I will only say that we had to leave halfway through the judging as dogs were put up repeatedly that should have been disqualified for unsoundness in temperament. Afterwards, he looked at me and said," Hey I know the working ability of the Dobes doesn't exist in show Dobes, but the German Shepherds may be worse!! There was nothing for me to say as we both witnessed the same thing. I am not bashing the dogs, just relaying what we saw exhibited in the ring.



I have seen the same thing Cliff - but keep getting told that I do not see that! LOL LOL

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Its not an issue of whether there are temperament issues in all lines, because there are, the issue is whether showlines have a higher occurrence of this than is healthy for the breed considering these dogs are poster dogs by virtue of their public life. The issue is whether the show breeders are as diligent about preventing and correcting this element as they would be about say HD. The issue is if these breeders do not vigilantly try to correct this are they responsible breeders, and if they are and the product they are producing is still lacking except for showring and the home are they in fact knowledgeable breeders. Its not about individual dogs, its about what we want the breed to be...working dog or ornament.


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## Okie2 (Aug 23, 2010)

Chris,

Thanks for your explanation on the various lines, I think I now have a better understanding; however, do you know of any publication regarding GSD's on this subject? Also, regarding breeders, as anyone published a list of breeders and the lines they subscribe to?


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Perhaps we should have people state the line of their dog when posting in the Behavior and Agression Threads, not to create a riff at all, after all we are all German Shepherd lovers here, but it would be interesting to see how many of these problems are attributable to certain lines, it seems a lot of people feel the showlines are far and away the cause, I myself would be interested as being in the showring these last few years I sure am not seeing it, I have seen very stable dogs in the rings.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I was having a conversation with a friend about an ASL puppy that is a go-getter. Fearless, high prey, outgoing and a baby alligator. I was delighted...she mortified. She told me she didn't want it to grow up to be an alligator. I am sure referring to my working line dogs.

The funny thing is, i have dealt with a number of WL line dogs, have friends with them, gone to clubs,etc. I don't have any people biting stories to tell. OTOH, my friend has had several people biting experiences with her own or other people she knows dogs.

Kinda made my eyes cross as to who has the "bitin' dogs".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think having an alligator would be my preference either! My WL has plenty of prey drive and is very confident, he has never been a landshark. I don't think lines have a lot to do with bite inhibition.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I get paid to correct and problem solve behavoir and aggression in dogs. 80% of behavoir issues whether they be aggression or behavoir in dogs with good nerve base is the result of people not knowing how to handle their dogs. Most of the issues are created by things the owner did or didn't do and the pack animal being what it is, took over the pack. When I run into behavoir issues that are genetic based, I make the owners aware that limited fixing is the outcome. Training will not overcome genetics. If the issue is owner caused, we usually have good success if the owners are capable and willing to implement the needed remedies. But as long as people think that substandard is acceptable, then nothing will change as has been the case in ASR. This has been a 40 year issue in ASR and becoming the same in the WGSL. And the irony is it can't be fixed because when you point it out, you are labelled as bashing, and the breeders don't have to explain these repeated occurrences; that everybody else sees but show breeders and owners. Sure there are "some" good showline dogs out there, but you seldom if ever see them in real working venues anymore. And the excuses are endless as to why they are no longer sought by people who want German Shepherds that can benefit mankind as the dog was created to do.
Everybody should not own a German Sherherd as well as breed them.JMO


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Fact of the matter is, when I talk to people who want a GSD and mention 'what lines are you interested in' and they look at me like I have 2 heads and am suddenly speaking a foreign language, I know these same people need to do a whole lot more research. Cause if they don't know about the different lines, I've found they also don't know all the health and temperament issues in the breed, and that the trip they were making to the pet store to pick up their new puppy may want to be put off.


Okay, I have a question: 
what if they know about the health and temperament problems in the breed? 

I read the link posted about the lines, but whenever I start using it, someone says, "Nope, that's not true."

That link is just a starter to get newcomers started, but where I can find EVERYTHING about the major lines? EVERYTHING in which I can say something like, "I'm looking for a German Showline breeder because [insert reasons] and that's why that type of GSD fits me."


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

GSD Fan said:


> That link is just a starter to get newcomers started, but where I can find EVERYTHING about the major lines?


By getting out, meeting the dogs, working the dogs, spending time with the dogs. Lots and lots of dogs, of the different lines. Then it will become much more clear. Really, there is no short cut. It seems people, and I don't mean this personally toward you but generally as it's often seen on this board and in the real world, wants simple answers. They want a list to follow, a recipe for success, someone to spoon feed them the information. I doesn't work that way. There is no website that has all the answers. Even if one did exist, that would only be a list of the answers as the site's creator sees them. Different people have different perception, and therefore different answers that fit them. No one can tell you those answers for YOU. You have to come to your own conclusions. But the only way to do that is go get out and get to know the DOGS. Not what people say about the dogs on the internet.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Amen!!


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

But where do I start? I can't find a German Shepherd club close enough and the ones that are far away I can't go to because of my schedule. I have school, then homework and studying, and then there's other appointments. There are German Shepherd clubs that are closer but they are no longer or not very active.

Should I try to find schutzund clubs? Talk to breeders?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Breeders, SchH clubs, GSD clubs, non breed specific training clubs, obedience trials, SchH trials, conformation shows. 

It takes time. Distance can be a factor certainly, as can day to day schedule. Most people work and have other things in their lives and can't just run all over the place all of the time going to see dogs. But it is something that is important and thus a way needs to be found to do it. If your current schedule doesn't allow, then perhaps this is something that needs to be put off into the future when your schedule is more conducive to getting out and meeting the dogs. The bottom line is you have to get out and see the dogs. There is no short cut or way around that.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

That's probably what I'm gonna have to do, just do it in the future.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you can't make it work, you can't make it work but I agree with Chris that there is no substitute. I had to wait three years to get my first GSD after I "picked" the breed. In preparation, I audited obedience classes, walked and trained GSDs at the animal shelter, learned to clicker train by clicker training my cat, worked with my uncle's dog. I waited until I was finished with school, had a stable day job, and appropriate housing before getting my first GSD. Then I wanted to do Schutzhund and other dog sports, so I was driving two hours each way to meet with a GSD club before I my next GSD was even born. And I'm just a breed and training enthusiast, I'm not looking to start breeding GSDs. If it's something you are really committed to, eventually you will have to find ways to get out there and make it work.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Like Liesje, I spent at least two years immersed and involved in GSDs, even before I got GSD of my own. There is no substitute to hands-on experience and real-life exposure. 

I just posted my background experience in this other thread:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...an-gsds-behavioral-questions.html#post2038781



> > Originally Posted by Emoore
> > And anyone who buys a dog based off of advice on the internet gets what they deserve. It gets said again and again on this forum: go thou and spend time with dogs.
> 
> 
> ...


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

selzer said:


> Or a brownie.
> 
> Do you want a gushy soft one?
> Do you want frosting?
> ...


 
i'm totally printing this out and framing it. perfect description!


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