# Working Line Breeder



## Prodirt6000 (May 21, 2014)

Hello,

Please bare with me, I have been doing research for weeks and am pretty overwhelmed. If anyone has any links, thoughts, opinions, I'd love to hear. 

Last year my dog passed, and I have been looking around for another dog. He was medium to high drive, with an off switch. I loved to watch him work, always wanting to please. We loved tracking. I went to a local IPO club and watched them train and watched a trial. I saw tracking, obedience and protection. I would like to get involved with that with my next dog. I know some say to ask them for breeder recommendations, so I am definitely going to do that, but I dont want to limit my search with this area. 

I found this video that was extremely helpful. 



 A couple breeders I found DID NOT have health records. So I'm thinking stay away. One of the breeders uses the Stud Qvido Vepeden, which I see is a two time world champion in IPO.

What I'm looking for ideally is a sable male, high drive, with an off switch. I want to have him work, but be able to go with me where ever that may be, and be accepting of people/animals around him. Socialization is key. Alot of police K9's in my area just go bonkers when they see another dog or person, I'm not sure if they are bred to never have an off switch or trained that way. 

There are many different lines of the German Shepherd, and from what I read I think DDR is not the right choice for me. I was thinking Czech lines. 

I am located in the north east, but not limiting that in my search. I'm hoping to pick up one this spring. 

Thank you!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Warkonhaus in State College has two breedings in the works for this summer.


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## Bella99 (Sep 4, 2017)

Vom Amwolf has czech, west, and ddr. I believe the parents of her upcoming G litter are Freeky and Avella. Oh how I wish I could have a pup from this pairing...She's located in Illinois.

https://vomamwolf.weebly.com/females.html


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## Prodirt6000 (May 21, 2014)

Bella99 said:


> Vom Amwolf has czech, west, and ddr. I believe the parents of her upcoming G litter are Freeky and Avella. Oh how I wish I could have a pup from this pairing...She's located in Illinois.
> 
> https://vomamwolf.weebly.com/females.html


I saw that! I reached out to her, she said they are all spoken for. Those dogs are gorgeous I wish I had gotten in touch with her sooner.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Prodirt6000 said:


> I saw that! I reached out to her, she said they are all spoken for. Those dogs are gorgeous I wish I had gotten in touch with her sooner.



Sometimes people cancel a pup reservation and you may move up on the list. Good luck on your search.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Feuergarten in TN has a breeding planned for spring. Awesome working dogs with great off switches. And both parents are health tested with proof of passing scores for hips and elbows.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm curious why you chose Czech lines? Your description of what you want is the opposite of what Czech lines are known for. Personally, I seem to gravitate toward the predominantly WG with Czech in the mix. It seems to give a nice balance of prey and aggression. 

Though I"m sure my male would disagree at the momentt as the puppy is barking in his face.

You should probably not worry so much about "lines" within the working line and more on the traits you want in the specific dogs from the breeder.

You can get very nice dogs from vom Sitz von der Hose / Olgameister in Marion. Warkonhaus in State College. Burmeister in CT. Quellwasser in Indiana. Feuergarten in TN. Marty Segretto in VA just had a nice litter but not sure when he'll breed again. And so many more listed in other threads.

As far as Qvido Vepeden - I just read a thread reporting many health issues. so don't get stuck on the 2x champion. 

Now, have to go entertain my dogs with a long cold walk.


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## Prodirt6000 (May 21, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I'm curious why you chose Czech lines? Your description of what you want is the opposite of what Czech lines are known for. Personally, I seem to gravitate toward the predominantly WG with Czech in the mix. It seems to give a nice balance of prey and aggression.
> 
> Though I"m sure my male would disagree at the momentt as the puppy is barking in his face.
> 
> ...


I admit, I am not too sure on all the details and traits of each line of GS. I have tried reading posts that explain the lines, but there is a lot of information out there it is hard to digest it all. 

What is the best way of talking to breeders? Just reach out to as many as possible that have health tested dogs and tell them the traits I want? And thank you, I will definitely look into those breeders you have mentioned.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Prodirt6000 said:


> I saw that! I reached out to her, she said they are all spoken for. Those dogs are gorgeous I wish I had gotten in touch with her sooner.


If you really like her dogs, ask to be put on the waiting list. People drop out all the time (especially if breeders have refundable deposits). I was 7th on the waiting list for 2 male pups: 1 black 1 sable. The night she was taking deposits, all 6 in front of me dropped out...so I had the choice of either males. (In another story, I almost brought home both males.)


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Unfortunately, asking for recommendations often becomes nothing more than a popularity contest, and often you are being sent to a website that is considered nice and which no one really knows the breeder, their dogs, their nature or their integrity.

Some things to consider

1...how many litters has the breeder bred/co-bred? 
2....How many dogs are titled and in what venues? Are they breeding versatile dogs that can do many things or dogs who primarily must live in kennel runs due to insane prey drive and no off switch?
3...Has the breeder titled dogs that they have bred?
4...Is the breeder importing dogs that are titled and selling pups under their name or have they developed a family of dogs of their own?
5.... Are they breeding dogs that are on the premises, what credentials do those dogs have? Are they breeding for convenience or have they actually developed a plan?
6...Are they using males who are popular so they can sell puppies (like the ones cited using a 2x WUSV champion)...do they understand what the male is offering genetically or just breeding to a record/big name?
7. Are you able to find health records in legitimate data bases (OFA or SV) or copies of those records posted publically as photos on working dog? Proof of testing. 
8. Do the sires and dams have progeny or siblings with titles and health testing.
9....are pups from the breeder, from his breeding stock, healthy and living in family environments.

Good luck!

Lee


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Prodirt6000 said:


> I admit, I am not too sure on all the details and traits of each line of GS. I have tried reading posts that explain the lines, but there is a lot of information out there it is hard to digest it all.
> 
> What is the best way of talking to breeders? Just reach out to as many as possible that have health tested dogs and tell them the traits I want? And thank you, I will definitely look into those breeders you have mentioned.


The easiest way to find your puppy is to go watch the dogs. Especially since you want to do IPO. I don't recommend breeders that I don't now personally, or have seen their dogs, so there are a lot in our area that I didn't list. There are a lot of breeders in the sport who don't have websites. Like Marty's litter. It was only posted on FB as far as I know. The mom is awesome and the sire won nationals. Same with another really nice litter in CT right now. And what I like, you might hate. But, trust me...you will find your dog that way. You'll watch a ton of dogs and then you'll be like...THAT ONE! GET ME ONE LIKE THAT!

There are a few things that are genetic. Grip is genetic. It's either there or it's not. Temperament and biddability is genetic. Hunt drive for tracking...genetic. So if IPO is your goal then you need to take the drives and temperament into account.

It's hard right now in the NE but the clubs are still working. Just inside. and you will learn way more about the dogs in training than you will watching a finished dog in trial.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> The easiest way to find your puppy is to go watch the dogs. Especially since you want to do IPO. I don't recommend breeders that I don't now personally, or have seen their dogs, so there are a lot in our area that I didn't list. There are a lot of breeders in the sport who don't have websites. Like Marty's litter. It was only posted on FB as far as I know. The mom is awesome and the sire won nationals. Same with another really nice litter in CT right now. And what I like, you might hate. But, trust me...you will find your dog that way. You'll watch a ton of dogs and then you'll be like...THAT ONE! GET ME ONE LIKE THAT!
> 
> There are a few things that are genetic. Grip is genetic. It's either there or it's not. Temperament and biddability is genetic. Hunt drive for tracking...genetic. So if IPO is your goal then you need to take the drives and temperament into account.
> 
> It's hard right now in the NE but the clubs are still working. Just inside. and you will learn way more about the dogs in training than you will watching a finished dog in trial.



I like all of this but a couple of cautions. Hunt drive in excess can be a pain, trust me. Look for balance, balance, balance. I have a genetic nightmare with WAY over the top hunt drive and while it sounds fun it over rides everything else! Once she is in tracking mode she becomes entirely driven by her nose and the rest of the world can take a hike. Including me.
I tried the club thing and was unfortunate enough to find a club that one breeder was using to sell her puppies. Almost all the dogs had come from her and the one dog I really liked was not hers and no one would talk about him.
Be careful. All breeders think they have the best dogs, and they should. But my perfect dog is not your perfect dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sabis mom said:


> All breeders think they have the best dogs, and they should. But my perfect dog is not your perfect dog.



^^^^ This....

Any drive in excess is a pain.

You will be able to see dogs from many different breeders at club. a couple of week ago I saw one that had been shipped in from Van den Heuvel. New handler. LOL That guy is in for one **** of a ride. It's going to be fun.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> The easiest way to find your puppy is to go watch the dogs. Especially since you want to do IPO. I don't recommend breeders that I don't now personally, or have seen their dogs, so there are a lot in our area that I didn't list. There are a lot of breeders in the sport who don't have websites. Like Marty's litter. It was only posted on FB as far as I know. The mom is awesome and the sire won nationals. Same with another really nice litter in CT right now. And what I like, you might hate. But, trust me...you will find your dog that way. You'll watch a ton of dogs and then you'll be like...THAT ONE! GET ME ONE LIKE THAT!
> 
> There are a few things that are genetic. Grip is genetic. It's either there or it's not. Temperament and biddability is genetic. Hunt drive for tracking...genetic. So if IPO is your goal then you need to take the drives and temperament into account.
> 
> It's hard right now in the NE but the clubs are still working. Just inside. and you will learn way more about the dogs in training than you will watching a finished dog in trial.


I very much agree with this. Go to clubs. See dogs in person. Talk to owners. Ask what the dog is like off the field. Are they reactive? Can they settle? Are they healthy? Ask how their experience with the breeder has been. Is the breeder supportive? Is the breeder a resource if there are questions or problems? Would they buy from that breeder again?

I recommended checking out Feuergarten because every dog I’ve seen from her has been an overall good dog. She works her own dogs and keeps puppies back from her breedings to develop for competition/breeding. She has dogs from her breedings competing in IPO/IGP, herding, agility, nosework, other bite sports. My girl from her is 3.5 years old now and has been a dream. She’s biddable, neutral in public but accepting of my friends and family, not reactive or interested in dogs when out in public. She has wonderful drives and has been a blast to train in numerous venues. She’s also the easiest house dog I’ve ever owned. She has a wonderful off switch. From what I’ve heard and seen from others who own littermates and siblings to my girl, this is typical. Alexis (the breeder) is also very supportive of her buyers. She’s a great resource, and someone who will cheer you on toward your goals.

And I want to touch on a few things that wolfstraum mentioned that I think are very important... health testing and a breeder being upfront about results is SO IMPORTANT. There are many who will breed dogs who have hips and/or elbows that technically did not pass. There are many more who do not work or title their own dogs. How do they know what their dogs bring to the table? How do they make breeding choices to complement what they have if they aren’t getting to know every facet of their dogs? Reading a pedigree only tells you so much. Each individual dog is unique and needs to be worked in order to know what they bring to the table.

One last thing. If you really want to get involved in IGP, go to a breeder who personally trains and titles in the venue. Of course you want an all around good dog. But you also don’t want to get stuck with a dog that doesn’t have good genetic biddability, or a dog that has poor grips, or a dog that doesn’t have enough drive to really be successful.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Sabis mom said:


> I like all of this but a couple of cautions. Hunt drive in excess can be a pain, trust me. Look for balance, balance, balance. I have a genetic nightmare with WAY over the top hunt drive and while it sounds fun it over rides everything else! Once she is in tracking mode she becomes entirely driven by her nose and the rest of the world can take a hike. Including me.
> I tried the club thing and was unfortunate enough to find a club that one breeder was using to sell her puppies. Almost all the dogs had come from her and the one dog I really liked was not hers and no one would talk about him.
> Be careful. All breeders think they have the best dogs, and they should. But my perfect dog is not your perfect dog.


How does that manifest? Dog loses its mind if it loses scent, won't walk nice on leash as it's always hunting? Just curious. It's taken a lot of work and reps on my part to TRY to slow my dog down when she loses the scent trail.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

ausdland said:


> How does that manifest? Dog loses its mind if it loses scent, won't walk nice on leash as it's always hunting? Just curious. It's taken a lot of work and reps on my part to TRY to slow my dog down when she loses the scent trail.


It showed early and has only gotten worse. To get her OFF a track you need to bodily pick her up and remove her. She would follow a scent for days, loses her mind if I stop her. She will and can track anything. So when I am hiking, for example, she crosses a deer/bear/rabbit/strange human trail and is gone off following it. NO deterrent or correction phases her. The good news is she can and will track me. In any setting. I have never seen her panic over losing a scent she instinctively switches to grid search until she finds it. Moves between air scent and ground scent flawlessly and quickly. Water, roads, nothing stops her and I have never seen her wrong.

But, it means at no point will she be off leash because she could(and has)take off on a track at any point and she's fast. She tracks at a run. If I could have harnessed this I would have had a rockstar SAR dog. Out of balance drives.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Couldn't agree more with meeting dogs in person and going from there. What I like you may not. A dog who looks great on the field or in videos could be nightmare out in public places or in the house. 

It's worth your time to do your research, and make sure you get a dog you want. Don't go off lineage alone. For my most recent pup I went to the breeder, not necessarily the lines. I told her what I wanted, because I'd seen what she produces, and I got it, and this dog is a dream. She also offers lifetime support and socializes her pups really well. My pup was an import, and cost significantly less than a locally grown GSD, even with shipping, but I am in a slightly different breed (working Belgian tervuren). 

That's another thing- how the pup is raised can make a big difference, and it was clear when I got my girl that she'd been loved and trusted and wanted to work with people. Imprinting that early gives you a great start.


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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

Going to clubs and observing many dogs is a start, but a novice, someone who has not trained a dog(s) over a reasonable period of time, is not going to understand what he/she is seeing. And, as noted a couple of times above, each individual has different priorities when ranking wants and needs in a dog's drives and temperament. Too many of today's competition dogs are not at all balanced when it comes to prey drive and too many owners are unwilling/unable to objectively evaluate varying levels of fearfulness/less than stellar nerve in their dogs. The result is highly skewed recommendations. A dog with very high prey drive but moderately poor nerve base can be titled because of the drive level, but be an unstable mess to live with. Finally, I prefer to deal with a breeder who has an encyclopedic knowledge of pedigrees. Not just knowledge gleaned from memorizing paper trails. Hands on training and titling of a family of dogs developed over several generations coupled with constant evaluation of progeny and the objectivity to eliminate any individual from a breeding program if any problem is discovered--no matter the economic cost. Blind loyalty to anything allows the start of a path down the proverbial slippery slope. Because of the passion many have for their program and the financial losses some decisions would require, selective objectivity becomes a problem. When I began interviewing breeders a number of years ago, I sat with several books on the history of the breed and its genetics in front of me and randomly interjected specific dogs from years ago into the conversation and then pushed for information on the pros and cons of their contribution to the breed. Over time, this process showed which breeders understood the true meaning of breeding to the standard--a balanced dog that could produce progeny capable of serving in a number of working venues--SAR, sport competition (IPO,agility, dock diving, etc., etc.), herding, therapy, etc. I discovered that a large percentage of breeders had no idea what lines would preserve the hunt and herding drives that are now being lost to the breed. Those same lines tend to produce the sensible, thinking dog that was so highly prized. Talk to the SAR people--those who need a dog with high drive, is social with other dogs and people and is able to live in the home without causing chaos. They will tell you just how difficult it is to find a GSD with those traits. Ask someone who has an HGH titled dog (if you can find one) how important it is to have drive, focus and the ability to think and discern--not hyperactivity--so the dog still has the energy to work at the end of the day. Find a breeder who is willing to eliminate certain dogs from his/her pedigree to minimize the possibility of negative health and temperament issues. All breeding programs require balancing traits in a pedigree to produce the best possible results. But there are some dogs, even when found several generations back in a line, that consistently produce the occasional nightmare puppy. Who gets that pup? What happens to it? How much risk is the breeder willing to pass on to the puppy buyer? Look at the extended pedigrees in the breeder's program. How many times do the same dogs appear in 7-8 generations or more? Concentrated line breeding, over time, starts to produce autoimmune (allergies, EPI, IBS, etc.) and other health and temperament issues that are miserable for both dog and owner. Contrary to what some will say, it is possible to maintain an open pedigree and still maintain excellent working drives, health and temperament. Occasional line breeding with an exceptional individual dog (health, temperament, longevity, drive) will then aid in setting those characteristics in future generations. Educate yourself first, to the extent it is possible from reading, and then embark on your search. It can then be fun and exciting.

I wish you the best.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GypsyGhost said:


> Ask what the dog is like off the field. Are they reactive? Can they settle?


:thumbup: My puppy came from Colorado and I didn't have the opportunity to meet the breeder or the dam before she came home. But in conversations with the breeder I was much more interested in what the dam was like OFF the field than I was in how she was ON the field. 

I had no doubt that any of the puppies in that litter would have enough drive for my sport of flyball. But it was also really important to me to have a dog that met all my other criteria too, as the bulk of the time we are not doing flyball and I needed a dog we could live with. I wanted a dog that could settle in the house and in her crate, that we could take anywhere, preferably not be reactive to other dogs, and social with people. 

The breeder's description of the dam was basically exactly what I wanted. I told her the things I loved about Halo and the things I'd rather have done without. And we are so, so happy with the puppy we got. If anything, she's perhaps a bit TOO friendly, but at a year old I'd much rather have that than a dog that's fearful and suspicious. Some of that may mitigate as she matures, but if not it's something I can work with. 

We take her to breweries, wineries, to lunch at restaurants with outdoor seating, to a huge music festival in Golden Gate Park in San Francisco, I take her hiking all the time, basically everywhere that dogs are allowed. She is not the slightest bit reactive, even when other dogs have barked at her she couldn't care less. She's a bit busy in the house, but once she's done in the evening she crashes and sleeps all night. She's as quiet as a mouse in the car. 

So anyway, if you do plan to do a sport it's important to get a puppy that will do well, but do not discount the livability factor, for want of a better term. No matter how much time you spend training and competing you're still going to be spending much more time just living with that dog.


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## kimbale (Mar 7, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> The easiest way to find your puppy is to go watch the dogs. Especially since you want to do IPO. I don't recommend breeders that I don't now personally, or have seen their dogs, so there are a lot in our area that I didn't list. There are a lot of breeders in the sport who don't have websites. Like Marty's litter. It was only posted on FB as far as I know. The mom is awesome and the sire won nationals. Same with another really nice litter in CT right now. And what I like, you might hate. But, trust me...you will find your dog that way. You'll watch a ton of dogs and then you'll be like...THAT ONE! GET ME ONE LIKE THAT!
> 
> There are a few things that are genetic. Grip is genetic. It's either there or it's not. Temperament and biddability is genetic. Hunt drive for tracking...genetic. So if IPO is your goal then you need to take the drives and temperament into account.
> 
> It's hard right now in the NE but the clubs are still working. Just inside. and you will learn way more about the dogs in training than you will watching a finished dog in trial.


Adding another vote for this. Watch dogs in person, talk to the people at your local club, ask them what they look for and what lines they have seen do well, and then research those lines. Asking for advice from people who have been around for a long time is a great way to get on the right track.

Also, don't get blinded by big titles and championships. Jax is correct in that there has been a lot of talk about Qvido Vepeden recently and some concerning similarities in health issues that his pups are experiencing. For now, I would actually steer clear of his lines until he has produced more proven offspring. I love that dog to death, but the evidence for his offspring isn't there yet.

After about six months of researching, asking for advice, talking to breeders, watching and working offspring of lines I liked (and then getting my hopes up for a breeding that ultimately failed), I have put a deposit down on an upcoming litter from Weberhaus that I am super excited about. Based on what you are looking for, you may want to reach out to her. She has Czech and DDR lines and produces quality sport dogs that do well on the field and in the home. 

Ultimately, though, take your time and do your research. A great pup from a great line of dogs that you admire and you're sure about is more important than getting a dog sooner rather than later.


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