# Advice please? My pup only behaves when wearing his prong collar.



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Sorry so much for you to read.
Finn is an eight month GSD. He and I usually walk several miles each day. During walks he wears a prong collar and leash. A few days each week I shorten the walk and instead take him to a field to play two ball fetch (a game recommended by Onyx'girl). He loves that game. During play he wears his prong collar and a long line. 

Finn seems to be a perfectly behaved pup when wearing his prong collar. On walks, people actually comment on how well behaved he is with people and other dogs.
During obedience class he is attentive and sweet and when we play 2 ball fetch he is impressive. During fetch I also mix things up by giving the commands that we've learned in class. I am surprised at how well he responds to training and how quickly he has learned his commands. Even when hyped up playing fetch he is able to settle himself to do a long stay.

Today I decided to work with him in the yard by taking him through his commands on leash wearing his regular collar (no prong). 
He refused to heal and was pretty unmanageable. He also objected to being on-leash by biting the leash and actually mouthing my hand.

He weighs 80 plus lbs and is very strong and stubborn. 
One more thing: He refuses to come to me when he is off leash ie if he is let out in the yard by himself he refuses to come back into the house when I call for him. But he comes when my husband calls him.
Thank you.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Say, you have missed 5 months. You train your puppy to follow you on walks off leash when he is 2,5 months old. From that age you should have trained him to keep his attention on you. Dogs don't listen to you because of helps of any leashes or collars, they listen to you - because they want to. And prong collar is for correction, not for trainig or walking, and definitely not for playing the ball.
1. Your dog is underexercised. He needs a free run, think of enclosed areas.
2. You have problem with a contact with your dog, you do not mean much for him, start from that. Read as much as you can about "building the bond".


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You need to work on your relationship. I had a Findlay! Her name is Jax! If you build the relationship, you'll build the obedience. 

How have you trained him? Any clicker training? Rewards?


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Findlay said:


> Sorry so much for you to read.
> Finn is an eight month GSD. He and I usually walk several miles each day. During walks he wears a prong collar and leash. A few days each week I shorten the walk and instead take him to a field to play two ball fetch (a game recommended by Onyx'girl). He loves that game. During play he wears his prong collar and a long line.
> 
> Finn seems to be a perfectly behaved pup when wearing his prong collar. On walks, people actually comment on how well behaved he is with people and other dogs.
> ...


 I just think you need to be consistent with obedience training. Do you take time daily to teach or reinforce basic OB? Down , come , heel , sit etc.. ? It sounds like maybe you may not be? If you focus on basic obedience as the foundation I think you may make some progress with consistency. The prong is for training and that includes walking. Once the behaviour is established and the dog understands it can be used for correction and self corrects enough most times when a dog pulls. I would keep the prong on for all walks and most if not all training . Hope this helps a little. Keep at it.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

David. Thanks for the advice, I appreciate your response to the issue I'm having with Finn. I thought we had bonded well.
He follows me around the house and runs to me with a wagging tail when I call to him in the house. right now he is lying on my feet which is where he lays every night. Even when other family members are in the room he sits or lays very close to me. 
But I'll look into how to create a stronger bond with him.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Finn and I attend a basic obedience class every Thursday and I re-enforce the training every day and he responds well to commands when he is wearing the prong collar and he always does well with commands in the house.
He knows: Sit, Stay, Down, Drop it, Bring it, Leave it, Look and he'll Come but only when he feels like it. That's the command that I'm having trouble with.
Also, when we are outdoors and he is not wearing his prong collar and leash he is less likely to follow commands. He knows when he's not wearing the collar.
His trainer does not recommend using a clicker or food rewards, we use praise rewards in class.
Thanks for your help.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

mattpayne said:


> I just think you need to be consistent with obedience training. Do you take time daily to teach or reinforce basic OB? Down , come , heel , sit etc.. ? It sounds like maybe you may not be? If you focus on basic obedience as the foundation I think you may make some progress with consistency. The prong is for training and that includes walking. Once the behaviour is established and the dog understands it can be used for correction and self corrects enough most times when a dog pulls. I would keep the prong on for all walks and most if not all training . Hope this helps a little. Keep at it.


Matt. Do you think I should I take the prong collar off Finn when we play fetch with a ball?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Have you tried turning recall into a game? Can you lure Finn with his favorite toy, then use that as a reward? I don't want to give you advice that goes against what your trainer is doing, but I've found it's easier to start training with a reward other than just praise (food, toy) when the dog is learning. You can start to remove the food/toy reward slowly after you know he has a command down pat, and then just offer praise. Just a suggestion!

As for the prong collar, I wouldn't personally keep it on Finn while he was just playing. If you do continue to leave it on him during play, just make sure you're there to supervise him.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

My pup, Shelby, is just a little younger than Findlay. I was having the same problem with the recall. 1. I have another dog and Shelby is distracted by him and rather play than listen. 2. It was winter and cold and I quickly tired of being outside. I was generally calling Shelby so we could go back inside. Huge mistake, of course, because she LOVES being outside. We started working more on her recall. I put her on a tie out, so I could make sure I had control. I could pull her to me, as I called. Then I rewarded her with a treat and lots of praise. Instant improvement. Now that the weather is nicer, we spend a lot more time outside. I no longer call her, just to come in the house.

Shelby wears her prong collar for walks and training. She is starting to show improvement on a flat collar. My hound mix, on the other hand, will probably wear his prong for the rest of his life. He is perfect on the leash, with his prong. He doesn't mind it and it works for me.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Findlay said:


> Matt. Do you think I should I take the prong collar off Finn when we play fetch with a ball?


 Well in a word yes just because there is no need to have it on if you are just playing fetch in the yard and no making it a part of your walking time etc.. The exception may be if having it on somehow causes him to behave differently or more positively you certainly could. I have for years as I walk my dogs , take them to play. I walk them on a prong so don't bother to remove it once we play with the ball. No need to.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Dogs become collar wise when the only way you ever correct them is through that collar. The dog notices when the collar is gone no correction happens over time and then learns when the collar is off it's time to play. Now let's say you corrected the dog with your foot or something like that, something you always had with you. Then the dog doesn't become collar wise because you have other ways of making them behave.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Baillif, how would you fix that problem? Or what other type of correction would you recommend inside?

I'll sometimes leave the prong collar and leash on my dog, and correct him inside when he does something I don't approve of.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Dead Ring*



Findlay said:


> Matt. Do you think I should I take the prong collar off Finn when we play fetch with a ball?


My Zeus is like your dog, better behaved with the prong collar on, especially on walks.

We too play fetch games and leave the dog on the leash. But we dead ring the slip and prong collar to his flat collar whenever we're not trying to control him and especially when he has a trailing long leash on or when he's in the car.

We dead ring him because he still thinks his prong is active and acts accordingly. Same with the long leash, he still thinks he's on a leash and can be corrected.

LF


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Toys and treats are the training tools, a little bit ... not to use the tools everybody uses. Praise by voice is understood in association with something simple as a piece of cheese, if your dog isn't food reactive - you use toys in order to train him the meanings of your "Good boy!" Are you sure your dog understands what you want with recall? That what you do at home could be not related to the required in his head. Dogs have rather poor sense of generalizing things and classifying similar concepts. "Sit" at home - is a different "sit" than in the street, and different than in the car. And so on with all commands - dogs learn commands through repetitions in different situations. Ask yourself - why should he come to you with recall? For the sake of what? You are not at home. Recall should sound for your dog as a promise of pleasure. And the pleasure should be in your pocket, not in his mouth. Get two balls, throw one and, when he fetches, recall flashing him the second ball. He will run to you without dropping the first one. I'm training by using this great tool, dogs will do everything I asked them for the sake of throwing ball for them. They do series of different commands for this single throw. But, you have to hook your dog first. If he plays ball already, I don't think it would be different, just be in possession of this valuable item and don't leave it to your dog if you don't play. Use Chuckit balls.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Longfisher said:


> My Zeus is like your dog, better behaved with the prong collar on, especially on walks.
> 
> We too play fetch games and leave the dog on the leash. But we dead ring the slip and prong collar to his flat collar whenever we're not trying to control him and especially when he has a trailing long leash on or when he's in the car.
> 
> ...


Longfisher. So your dog wears 3 collars at once? A slip, a prong and a flat collar? I do the slip and prong but I don't dead ring them. 
I'll get a flat collar though because that set up sounds good for the way you use it for your dog. Thanks for the tip.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> your dog wears 3 collars


That's right, that is how it should be - corrections when necessary. Does the dog need any prong collar at all - is another question.


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## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Thank you everyone for taking the time to read and respond to my thread.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I agree with Bailiff. The dog is collar smart. You need more ways than just a prong to correct the dog. The collar should be a tool to teach, not a crutch.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Since this is on the same topic, I figured I'd post it here.

Because I want to get my dog to pass his CGC, he needs to follow commands without the prong on. He pretty much does what I ask without it on.. except for loose leash walking and heel. When I get him out of the crate, take him inside from the backyard, or take him to the front yard to train or play, he's so energetic that he's constantly pulling every which way on the leash. I need to use the prong to make him stop pulling, chill out, and walk nicely. After this, he follows all of my obedience commands just fine without the use of the prong. However, I can't seem to get him to walk on a loose leash without the prong on, regardless of whether I calm him down first or not. Is there any way to fix this?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

use food to keep him engaged with you, or a ball/tug. When I was training Karlo as a young dog, seldom did he ever have a line on...he stayed with me because I had what he wanted. But he was more biddable and loved, loved to tug. I'd bring him out on a tug and then work him, he didn't even notice that he wasn't tethered to me.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> I agree with Bailiff. The dog is collar smart. You need more ways than just a prong to correct the dog. The collar should be a tool to teach, not a crutch.


That's what happened with mine. Now, I'm back to the long, slow and ultimately totally unreliable situation in an emergency... food or play rewards


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

My dog is only food motivated when he's calm and not in a distracting environment. I can try using a tug to engage him, but that makes him more excited and he tries to grab the tug from me. Do i just need to be firm and calm and make him do a few commands first to teach him that he only gets to play with the tug if he does what i ask?


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