# Is the vet right? Panosteitis & Food



## DanielleOttoMom

Ok so I took Otto (8 Months)the vet yesterday b/c of severe lameness. After doing alot of research I new it had to Panosteitis. Which is like "doggie growing" pains in the long bone . Lameness can come and go, seemingly for months. It travels from leg to leg. So I take him to the vet a new vet might I add. ( I changed for personal reason) I love place very clean, nice people, didn't have to wait, very knowledgeable vet and techs. (Or so I thought) I even got a tour, not some thing I have experinced before. Otto and I were there for an hour. But to make a long story short. The vet did say it was panosteitis . The only thing I didn't agree with her on is with food. She told me that Otto needed to be on a large breed puppy food b/c he is a puppy. 

He is on TOTW and I alternate the differnt flavors . I also feed raw in the evening. Which he loves. She suggested Royal Caine Large breed puppy for GSD. I told her I had him on that when he was very young (8 weeks - 4 months). *He is 8 months old I was told to take him off puppy at 6 months.* Also she said to stop the Raw diet until his panosteitis stops. Also there is not proff the raw diet is any better than kibble. Well ok.... So take him him off raw in evening and just kibble..... Change to Royal Caine? Nope I think I will stick to TOTW. She offered *science diet*... I laughed and said I defiently think not ! The tech said "I feed it to my dogs." I laughed again I could help my self. I was trying to be nice. So what do you think? 

Otto was healthy besides the panosteits. We have rimadyl 75mg and Tramadol. He seems to be doing better with the meds. He is 8 months old and 73lbs on the dot. He is going to be getting alot of RR and Kongs to play with. Lots of rest for my sweet boy. 

I pulled this for TOTW website thought it might also be helpful.
Can I feed this food to my large breed puppy? Yes. All of the Taste of the Wild formulas meet the nutritional needs for growing puppies. Large breed puppies should be fed a little differently than small or medium breed puppies in order to control their growth rate. Overfeeding calories can lead to rapid growth, which puts stress on the developing bones and joints. It is important to keep your large breed puppy in lean body condition - ask your vet how to determine whether your puppy is lean or too heavy. You may have to adjust the feeding amount up or down from what is indicated on the package, the package just provides an estimate of the amount to feed and every puppy is a bit different.

Sorry for the long story.......


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## Jax08

Why would she think RAW has any play in pano?

I have seen other threads that say the TOTW has to much calcium for a puppy. If you do a search in the threads you'll probably find the info.


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## natalie559

When Penny was a puppy and was fed dog food I learned one of the most important things to look at in a commercial food for a large breed is the calcium and phosphorous levels. Do you know what they are in the TOTW?


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## onyx'girl

Onxy had three bouts of Pano, she was on kibble(TOTW) til 6 months and her first bout hit. I put her on raw and she had two more bouts after that. Karlo was rawfed from weaning and he had two bouts. IMO, I think it is a structural issue not so much nutrition. Though higher protein can lead to growth spurts causing Pano. And if you are feeding higher calcium levels than recommended that can affect the joints/bones. I would feed WEllNESS super5mix large breed puppy or ORIJEN if I were to feed kibble. TOTW isn't recommended because of the calcium/phosphorus ratios.
If the dog is on the larger end of the scale and has long legs, Pano will hit. Vitamin C will help reduce the inflammation and shorten the bout.
I kept both my pups lean, but they still got it.


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## Emoore

There have been several threads on this forum stating that TOTW has too much calcium/phosphorus for a large breed puppy. At 8 months I would have thought he would be ok on an adult food like TOTW, but if he is still having growth pains the first thing I would do is switch him to a large breed puppy food or ALS food with lower cal/phos levels than TOTW. 

I wouldn't recommend Royal Canin though; I'd prefer Wellness LBP, Innova LBP, or Orijen LBP.


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## jaggirl47

Jax08 said:


> Why would she think RAW has any play in pano?
> 
> I have seen other threads that say the TOTW has to much calcium for a puppy. If you do a search in the threads you'll probably find the info.


 
That's what I understood as well with the calcium levels. I went with Orijen instead.


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## Lucy Dog

This is exactly why people recommend not feeding TOTW to puppies. It has too much calcium for a growing puppy. Too much calcium means bones growing too fast which makes dogs develop pano or possibly worst. 

Personally, I would not even consider feeding TOTW to a puppy or a dog under two years old.

Your dog does not have to be on a large breed puppy formula, but I do recommend putting him on a kibble with more appropriate calcium / phosphorous percentages.


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## DanielleOttoMom

I'm not sure why she would think raw has any thing to do with Pano..... I will try vitiam C do they make it for dogs? Or human form ok? He is lean very fit. But he has long legs hug paws! But the vet said his weight it perfect. I dont think he looks abnormaly long legged though. I did have Otto also on Wellness Core before changing to TOTW. So Wellness Super 5 mix and Orijen? Does anyone feed this? How is your dog doing on it?


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## onyx'girl

TOTW doesn't acknowledge the levels on their site. That says they aren't appropriate. Wellness and Orijen do have them listed and know the values of correct levels for growing pups.
Which one would you choose just by going by the information listed on each site? I wouldn't go with TOTW.

Human grade vitamin C should be started at 500mg a day and over a week time you can up it to 2000mg split between meals. It can be hard on the gut so slow introduction is important. Don't use EsterC for a pup, it contains calcium as well.


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## Lucy Dog

DanielleOttoMom said:


> I'm not sure why she would think raw has any thing to do with Pano..... I will try vitiam C do they make it for dogs? Or human form ok? He is lean very fit. But he has long legs hug paws! But the vet said his weight it perfect. I dont think he looks abnormaly long legged though. I did have Otto also on Wellness Core before changing to TOTW. So Wellness Super 5 mix and Orijen? Does anyone feed this? How is your dog doing on it?


Wellness Core and TOTW both have calcium percentages over 2%. Both are not appropriate for a growing large breed puppy no matter what the TOTW website says. They're just going by what AAFCO says is safe. AAFCO are the same people that says it's safe to feed unnamed "animal" meats to dogs, so take their standards for what they're worth... 
Wellness Super 5 Mix and Orijen LBP are much better choices than what you're currently on and definitely better than science diet. I'd give either of those a shot. Orijen LBP being my first choice. I feed the adult formula to my 2 year old and it's a great food.


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## BlackGSD

My opinion is that GENETICS plays the largest part in if a pup gets Pano or not.

I have raised several GSD puppies over the years, some got it and some didn't. 

I believe if they are going to get it, it doesn't matter WHAT you feed them. (Or don't feed them.)

For instance Siren had it a few times, a LOT of her 1/2 siblings (same sire) have gotten it too and the vast majority are fed different diets from eachother. (Meaning some were on a regular "adult" kibble, some got an ALS kibble, some on grain free kibble and others on raw.)


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## DanielleOttoMom

I'm going to have to read a little more on the Orjien LBP and see how that goes. So how long should I keep him on the LBP Orjien? Is AAFCO really creditable? Do they have a website?


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## DanielleOttoMom

I really wish I could educate my self better on what is good for him and what isn't. This way I know what to look for. I want to make sure I give him the best. Just like all of us what to whats best for our dogs.


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## roxy84

DanielleOttoMom said:


> I did have Otto also on Wellness Core before changing to TOTW. So Wellness Super 5 mix and Orijen? Does anyone feed this? How is your dog doing on it?


did you happen to see this on the Wellness website regarding Wellness Core?


_I have heard that some of these high protein diets can’t be fed to large breed puppies. Why?_

_Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities. Many of the high protein diets on the market today are well in excess of 1.5% Calcium. We do not recommend any large breed puppies be fed our CORE dog diets, or any of the other high protein diets on the market today. In fact, we would conservatively say that puppies in general should not feed higher protein diets that exceed 1.5% Calcium. Again, this is why we feature a maintenance claim and promote the diet for dogs over 1 year in age._

note that TOTW has pretty much the same Ca levels as Core


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## DanielleOttoMom

Wow, Now I feel like this is my fault.  I need to switch! Now is the best time to do so. Oh my I just feel really bad...:help:


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## Lucy Dog

roxy84 said:


> did you happen to see this on the Wellness website regarding Wellness Core?
> 
> 
> _I have heard that some of these high protein diets can’t be fed to large breed puppies. Why?_
> 
> _Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities. Many of the high protein diets on the market today are well in excess of 1.5% Calcium. We do not recommend any large breed puppies be fed our CORE dog diets, or any of the other high protein diets on the market today. In fact, we would conservatively say that puppies in general should not feed higher protein diets that exceed 1.5% Calcium. Again, this is why we feature a maintenance claim and promote the diet for dogs over 1 year in age._
> note that TOTW has pretty much the same Ca levels as Core


Nice post. 

This is pretty responsible of Wellness to actually tell potential customers NOT to feed their food because it isn't safe for puppies. They're risking potential profits by doing this, but at least they're acknowledging that their core formulas should not be fed to young large breed pups even though AAFCO says it's ok.


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## jakeandrenee

My Jake is having a bout of Pano and he has been fed Acana Pacifica until last month....and I switched to TOTW. Are you telling me that in 4 weeks it affected his system he has Pano? 

I agree it has to genetics or at least primarily so because years ago before all the science went into making kibble I don't recall all the LB puppies limping.


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## DanielleOttoMom

Otto has been on TOTW for almost two and a half months. I don't his diet of TOTW and Ras has caused this. Genetices is a possibility? But I don't know to much about this and I'am not a vet. But I will read more into this. I really like TOTW but if it could be contributing to make the PANO worst then I need to change. This is all new and different to me. After looking into Orijen-----> What do you think? 

GUARANTEED ANALYSISCrude Protein (min.)40.0%Crude Fat (min.)16.0%Crude Fiber (max.)3.0%Moisture (max.)10.0%Calcium (min.)1.5%Calcium (max.)1.7%Phosphorus (min.)1.1%Phosphorus (max.)1.3%Omega-6 (min.)2.6%Omega-3 (min.)
DHA
EPA1.0%
0.6%
0.3%Carbohydrate (max.)20.0%Glucosamine (min.)1400 mg/kgChondroitin (min.)1200 mg/kgMicroorganisms (min.)120M cfu/kg
Orijen Large Breed Puppy
   







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Orijen Large Breed Puppy grain-free formula is unlike any other puppy food and is guaranteed to help your large-sized puppy grow up bright, healthy and strong. Orijen Large Breed Puppy is bursting with the protein-packed human-grade meats (minimum 70%) that your growing puppy needs—and none of the grains or carbohydrates that are biologically inappropriate to him. By utilizing special low-ash chicken and fish ingredients, Orijen Large Breed Puppy avoids the high ash levels—and subsequently elevated calcium and phosphorus—that are a common concern for large breed puppy owners on high-protein diets. 

Orijen Large Breed Puppy formula is available in 15.4 lb., and 29.7 lb. bags. 

*Orijen Large Breed Puppy Ingredients:*
Boneless chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, boneless salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, boneless lake whitefish, boneless walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, boneless turkey, fresh whole eggs, boneless herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, vitamin B6, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12), mineral supplements (zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium), dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product. 

*Orijen Large Breed Puppy Guaranteed Analysis: *
Crude Protein (min.) ................... 40 %
Crude Fat (min.) ........................ 16 %
Crude Fiber (max.) .................... 3.0 %
Moisture (max.) ......................... 10 %
Calcium (min./max.) ............. 1.5/1.7 %
Phosphorus (min./max.) ........ 1.1/1.3 %
* Omega-6 (min.) ..................... 2.6 %
* Omega-3 (min.) ..................... 1.0 %
DHA/EPA ............................ 0.6/0.3 %
* Carbohydrate (NFE) ................. 20 %
* Glucosamine (min.) ......... 1400 mg/kg
* Chondroitin (min.) ........... 1200 mg/kg
* Microorganisms ............. 120 M cfu/kg
* Not recognized as an essential nutrient by AAFCO Dog Food Nutrient Profiles. 


GUARANTEED ANALYSISCrude Protein (min.)40.0%Crude Fat (min.)16.0%Crude Fiber (max.)3.0%Moisture (max.)10.0%Calcium (min.)1.5%Calcium (max.)1.7%Phosphorus (min.)1.1%Phosphorus (max.)1.3%Omega-6 (min.)2.6%Omega-3 (min.)
DHA
EPA1.0%
0.6%
0.3%Carbohydrate (max.)20.0%Glucosamine (min.)1400 mg/kgChondroitin (min.)1200 mg/kgMicroorganisms (min.)120M cfu/kg


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## jakeandrenee

Wellness LB puppy is very similar....

I like TOTW and frankly if I need to switch I wouldn't know where to begin, he is grain sensitive and I like the idea of not feeding him tons of fillers. Jake will be 9 months tomorrow.


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## jakeandrenee

The other point is what about all the puppies out there who are fed RAW? Why isn't there an overwhelming number of those having bouts of Pano?
I too am trying to understand this....TOTW is the first food that Jake's skin/coat is good, his ear quit itching and his stool IS PERFECT.


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## Lucy Dog

jakeandrenee said:


> I agree it has to genetics or at least primarily so because years ago before all the science went into making kibble I don't recall all the LB puppies limping.


You may be right, but why not stack the deck in your favor (or your pup's favor) and feed a lower calcium food? 

There are plenty of lower calcium foods out there, just as good, if not better than TOTW.


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## jakeandrenee

Lucy Dog... there really aren't if you need to feed a grain free kibble.


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## Lucy Dog

jakeandrenee said:


> Lucy Dog... there really aren't if you need to feed a grain free kibble.


What about Orijen LBP? If Orijens a little too expensive, go with their cousin Acana. Both have lower max calcium percentages than TOTW.

What's the reason you need to feed grain free, if you don't mind me asking? Allergies?


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## DanielleOttoMom

Perfect so I will go grab a bag on Orjen LBP on my home form work.......  And mix a little with the TOTW that I have left. Change it over from there. As long as he likes it. My Husband is going to think I'm crazy for changing his food over again.


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## jakeandrenee

Yes, he is sensitive to grains, I had him on Acana(I can't get Orijen here) and after researching I discovered that the protein was kind of low....I had him on the Pacifica flavor(at the time I was doing the elimination diet with chicken). I do have Wellness here but also after researching it, it too is a grain heavy food.


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## chicagojosh

i feed Cody (1 year) TOTW and have been since 9 months. i have heard of the high calcium levels and all, but it was sooo hard to find a food his stomach agreed with i am sticking with it.

i should add he had 2 bouts of pano. both came about prior to me getting him on TOTW. he was eating Science Diet, Blue Buffalo, and Euakanaba when the pano was bad... food has been and ongoing issue until TOTW


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## Lucy Dog

jakeandrenee said:


> Yes, he is sensitive to grains, I had him on Acana(I can't get Orijen here) and after researching I discovered that the protein was kind of low....I had him on the Pacifica flavor(at the time I was doing the elimination diet with chicken). I do have Wellness here but also after researching it, it too is a grain heavy food.


Acana actually has a pretty good amount of protein. Looking at their website, it says 65% meat protein on the bag. That's a pretty high percentage for kibble.

Maybe you could send an email to the taste of the wild people and see how much of their kibble is meat based. I'd be shocked if it was higher than 65%, but they'll most likely not give that number. 

Have you considered getting Orijen delivered if it's not in your area? I get it delivered from one of the websites I used and with shipping, I pay under $60 per bag which is a decent price for Orijen. I'm sure Acana would be even less.


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## Lucy Dog

DanielleOttoMom said:


> Perfect so I will go grab a bag on Orjen LBP on my home form work.......  And mix a little with the TOTW that I have left. Change it over from there. As long as he likes it. My Husband is going to think I'm crazy for changing his food over again.


Don't be surprised if your local pet store doesn't carry Orijen. It's kind of hard to find sometimes. Most stores don't carry it.

If you go to the Orijen website, they have a product locator section. Just type in your zip code or state and it will list all the stores near you that carry their food.


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## DanielleOttoMom

jakeandrenee said:


> Yes, he is sensitive to grains, I had him on Acana(I can't get Orijen here) and after researching I discovered that the protein was kind of low....I had him on the Pacifica flavor(at the time I was doing the elimination diet with chicken). I do have Wellness here but also after researching it, it too is a grain heavy food.


 
Jakeandrenee,

I feel like we're in the same boat. I'm so very sorry you Jake has pano too. I think I'm going to call my vet and breeder when I get home and talk to them a little bit more about this. Orjen LBP isn't grain free? I just do want to jump and change from food to food. Otto needs grain free two.


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## jakeandrenee

SolidGold wolfcub also grain heavy....


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## DanielleOttoMom

I can't belive how much I just miss spelled alot of things in my reply. Please for give me..... LOL I'm a mess about all this.


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## Jax08

Why don't you just switch to 100% RAW instead of dropping the RAW completely? If you feel it's to much protein then add vege's in with it. At least that way you'll have control over what he is eating.


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## jakeandrenee

RAW is HIGH protein etc.......forgive me but I thought this what part of the problem.
I just posted a new thread wanting to discuss this very thing.


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## Lucy Dog

jakeandrenee said:


> RAW is HIGH protein etc.......forgive me but I thought this what part of the problem.
> I just posted a new thread wanting to discuss this very thing.


It's not the protein that's the issue. It's the high calcium that causes problems. Too much calcium is no good for large breed puppies, but high protein is fine.


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## jakeandrenee

Right....but when feeding RAW you feed a high percentage of bone, isn't that a trigger?


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## rjvamp

jakeandrenee said:


> RAW is HIGH protein etc.......forgive me but I thought this what part of the problem.
> I just posted a new thread wanting to discuss this very thing.


Do you know how do you convert 18g of protein for this chicken as an example to a % on a dry matter basis to determine what would be considered, low, med, high, extreme protein when compared to dry kibble diets? I've wondered myself.

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Chicken, broilers or fryers, leg, meat and skin, raw


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## Lucy Dog

jakeandrenee said:


> Right....but when feeding RAW you feed a high percentage of bone, isn't that a trigger?


I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on raw because I'm not. I've never gone the raw route, but no, I don't believe the amount of protein is an issue at all. Dogs are carnivores - protein is all they need. If you have a balanced raw diet, protein is not the issue. If anything, feeding raw is the most natural and healthy way to feed your dog.


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## jakeandrenee

Me too, but isn't there a lot of calcium in the bone? I am totally confused and concerned...


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## rjvamp

Lucy Dog said:


> I'm not going to pretend that I'm an expert on raw because I'm not. I've never gone the raw route, but no, I don't believe the amount of protein is an issue at all. Dogs are carnivores - protein is all they need. If you have a balanced raw diet, protein is not the issue. If anything, feeding raw is the most natural and healthy way to feed your dog.


That is what I was thinking.....

I found this article of interest....

But My Vet Says Too Much Protein is Hard on My Dog’s Kidneys

"The fact is that nobody knows what too much protein means with respect to dogs, but a dose of common sense tells us that if they evolved eating meat, and large quantities of it, that it’s probably pretty difficult for a dog to OD on protein. The myth of too much protein has been propagated by the pet food industry because corn and wheat are cheaper than meat. Plain and simple!

“The dog can digest large amounts of proteins, especially those of animal origin” stated Prof. Dominique Grandjean DVM, Ph.D., at the Fourth Annual International Sled Dog Veterinary Medical Association Symposium (page 53 of 1997 PROCEEDINGS)."


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## My2Furkids

Question since a lot this has been talking about TOTW vs Orijen and calcium etc. Apparently the magic number for calcium is 1.5% ? Orijen has a max percent of 1.7% listed. I e-mailed TOTW about their calcium levels in each formula and got:


The calcium and phosphorus content in our dry formulas is:

High Prairie: calcium: 2.1% as-fed; phosphorus: 1.4%, as-fed
Wetlands: (same as High Prairie)
Pacific Stream: calcium: 1.9%, as-fed; phosphorus: 1.1%, as-fed

Is there REALLY that much difference from 1.7 to 2.1 percent??? I'm not a vet or anything, but four tenths of a percent of a few cups of food in a day is probably... a few milligrams. Someone please chime in on this.


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## jakeandrenee

I also wonder the same thing, or is it hype and marketing to buy Orijen?


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## rjvamp

My2Furkids said:


> Question since a lot this has been talking about TOTW vs Orijen and calcium etc. Apparently the magic number for calcium is 1.5% ? Orijen has a max percent of 1.7% listed. I e-mailed TOTW about their calcium levels in each formula and got:
> 
> 
> The calcium and phosphorus content in our dry formulas is:
> 
> High Prairie: calcium: 2.1% as-fed; phosphorus: 1.4%, as-fed
> Wetlands: (same as High Prairie)
> Pacific Stream: calcium: 1.9%, as-fed; phosphorus: 1.1%, as-fed
> 
> Is there REALLY that much difference from 1.7 to 2.1 percent??? I'm not a vet or anything, but four tenths of a percent of a few cups of food in a day is probably... a few milligrams. Someone please chime in on this.


If not in the right ratio then it can make a difference....

Calcium & Phosphorous in Dogs* - Chinaroad Lowchens of Australia - <--- from Dr. Fosters and Smith (article quoted)

Why I think the Raw diet route is different is the correct ratio of Raw Meaty bones to Muscle meat and organs is very natural. And the dog will poop out what they don't digest - you either get good stool, hard stools or loose stools - and you change up the ratios as needed (see rawdogranch.com - like add more muscle meat or more bones) or other options are following puppy feeding that Dr. Lonsdale promotes with Raw Meaty Bones. It is very similar to rawdogranch.com but more "eying" than % or weighing. Same results.

When trying to do grain-free kibble it is harder to get the calcium and phosphorus at a level appropriate for growing puppies (large breed), thus some companies will say - not for puppies.

Another good article on Raw and Balance with Calcium and Phophorus

http://www.k9joy.com/dogarticles/CalciumPhosphorous.php


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## jakeandrenee

"""Originally Posted by My2Furkids 
Question since a lot this has been talking about TOTW vs Orijen and calcium etc. Apparently the magic number for calcium is 1.5% ? Orijen has a max percent of 1.7% listed. I e-mailed TOTW about their calcium levels in each formula and got:


The calcium and phosphorus content in our dry formulas is:

High Prairie: calcium: 2.1% as-fed; phosphorus: 1.4%, as-fed
Wetlands: (same as High Prairie)
Pacific Stream: calcium: 1.9%, as-fed; phosphorus: 1.1%, as-fed

Is there REALLY that much difference from 1.7 to 2.1 percent??? I'm not a vet or anything, but four tenths of a percent of a few cups of food in a day is probably... a few milligrams. Someone please chime in on this.""""

So, does 4 tenths of a percent matter? I don't see how.


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## roxy84

My2Furkids said:


> Is there REALLY that much difference from 1.7 to 2.1 percent??? I'm not a vet or anything, but four tenths of a percent of a few cups of food in a day is probably... a few milligrams. Someone please chime in on this.


remember, you are already dealing with a pretty small % when we are only talking about 2-2.5% as the highest levels in almost any dog food.

think of it this way, 2.1% is a 23% increase in Ca level over 1.7%. maybe it doesnt matter. my feeling is id rather be safe than sorry since i would only have to worry about it for 12 months, then feed pretty much anything.

it is true that studies that showed detrimental effects from high Ca used levels of 2.7% and higher, with recommended ranges from around 1% as a minimum and 2.5% as a maximum. its probably a guessing game as to how high it can be over a one year period without being detrimental. i think the recommendation of 1.5% or lower comes from the desire to stay closer to the lower end of the scale than the higher end of the scale.

id agree that genetics and random chance can certainly play a role w/ pano.


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## Lucy Dog

My2Furkids said:


> Question since a lot this has been talking about TOTW vs Orijen and calcium etc. Apparently the magic number for calcium is 1.5% ? Orijen has a max percent of 1.7% listed. I e-mailed TOTW about their calcium levels in each formula and got:
> 
> 
> The calcium and phosphorus content in our dry formulas is:
> 
> High Prairie: calcium: 2.1% as-fed; phosphorus: 1.4%, as-fed
> Wetlands: (same as High Prairie)
> Pacific Stream: calcium: 1.9%, as-fed; phosphorus: 1.1%, as-fed
> 
> Is there REALLY that much difference from 1.7 to 2.1 percent??? I'm not a vet or anything, but four tenths of a percent of a few cups of food in a day is probably... a few milligrams. Someone please chime in on this.


Actually 1.7% is at the very top I'd be willing to go in terms of calcium. Some may say it's more calcium than they'd be comfortable with, but I've personally heard and read nothing but good results from owners who feed Orijen LBP. 

When dealing with such small numbers, yes, it is that big of a difference. Especially when 1.7% is kind of high as it is, but when you have to feed grain free, it really is the best option out there. Roxy gave a great example of how big of a difference it actually is in terms of percentage more.

So yes, I feel the difference between 1.7% and 2.1% is bigger than you think. It may seem small, but when exactly breaking down the numbers, it is a pretty significant difference.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Again to look at this thread later.


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## luvmypups

*Raw feeding and Pano (Panosteitis)*

We've been dealing with Pano for a few months now too. My female pup was diagnosed at 8 months. From what the vets have told me and what I've read, it is the calcium/phosphorus ratio that is important, not necessarily the total calcium content. You want the ratio to be as close to 1:1 as possible. 

We switched to a semi-homemade diet on the recommendation of our vet, who uses traditional and holistic methods. So, we feed grain free Sojos (a bagged, dehydrated fruit/veggie mix) that you mix with meat (we use turkey) and water (to rehydrate the veggies/fruits). 

Based on the numbers given to me by the company, the Sojos grain free mix by itself (with no meat added) has a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1.6 to 1 (or 1.6:1), which is not great. 

But then you have to figure in the meat. I found the numbers for calcium and phosphorus in turkey at http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ (thanks to a raw food website for cats for that little gem of a find;-). When you figure those numbers, I got a calcium phosphorus ratio of .19:1. 

Since I feed the proportion of meat to veggie mix on the bag recommended for adult dogs, which is equal parts meat and veggie mix, I just averaged the ratio for the veggie mix and the meat, and got a total ratio of .90:1, which is pretty darn close to 1:1. 

My pup has had a few recurrances, but nothing like the first bout of pano which had her miserable and not wanting to walk or play for almost 2 weeks. Now, we might have a day here or there with a little limping, but that seems to subside quickly within a day or two now.

I do keep pain meds on hand, just in case (liquid metacam - the holistic guy doesn't like the side effects or rimadyl, though that worked well for us initially), but I've only needed the pain meds once since the first bout. I also add an omega supplement and probiotic supplement.

Also, FYI... I can get Sojos through several local high end pet food stores here in the Des Moines area, but you can also get it on Amazon with free shipping. 

I am also considering supplementing with Orijen LBP just to add some calories since her growth rate/weight gain has slowed so dramatically (we've gone from one end of that spectrum to the other). 

Hope this helps others who want to feed raw/homemade/semi-homemade and are having Pano problems.


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## sable123

The chance this was caused by diet or will be cured by diet is about ZERO.

It happens in large breeds and Shepherds have among the highest rates no matter what they eat.

Follow your vet's advice, limit bouncing activity especially.

It will pass.


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## Syl.igoe

*My sweet little puppy has been diagnosed with Panosteitis*

Hello- I'm hoping someone can help me. My sweet 15 week old puppy developed a high temp yesterday 105 !!! Vet examined him and found that his joints were sore more than sore actually down right painful. He has never been a great eater but he completely stopped eating! My vet ex-rayed him and confirmed panosteitis. She gave him a shot to help him with the fever and sent us home with previcox. His fever never came down and I found myself in the E.R with him all night. He was completely lifeless really scary. The e.r vet said he could have a bacterial bone infection and prescribed antibotics and told me to keep him on the previcox. I lined his crate with frozen water bottles to try and keep his fever down. He was 102 this morning and was able to stand on his own and walked to the bathroom outside. Does anyone have experience with this disease and is a high fever normal? The meds have kicked in and he's feeling better ..... I'm not sure what I should be feeding him at this point .... any suggestion?
What should I be looking for in a food for him ? He was eating adult food but I'm rethinking that now.
My vet also suggested vit e 400 mg, vit C 1000 2x a day and a multi


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## Jax08

You need to start your own thread so you get answers. Pano doesn't cause a fever.


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## Syl.igoe

Sorry this is all new to me.


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## Jax08

No problem..

go to here
Health Issues - German Shepherd Dog Forums
Click on New Thread
and copy in what you wrote here. You'll get more answers to that than have it buried in this old thread. Hope your puppy gets the help he needs and is better soon


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