# Breeding dogs capable of herding?



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As we know one of the foundation uses of our breed is herding. My question to some of the breeders or possible future breeders, or anyone; 
If a dog you bred was involved in real sheep herding and a big nasty ram challenged the dog....how would you want your bred dog to react?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

A pregnant dog? Or a breeding dog?????


My Kira has HGH title - got it at 23 months, very young....as a mature dog I would want her to back that sheep down! to challenge it and if necessary, grip it or nip it's nose to subdue it and put it in line. She was tenacious in her HGH test, a young dog and the flock- 200ish sheep - got away from her, through a stream into another field...she got them regathered, through the stream and slight gap in the treeline and brought them in. 

She also has a heck of a grip on a sleeve. Her 2nd dam is also linebred 2-5,5 on Lord. Her first pups are little rockstars in IPO (see Astrovan's Naughty von Wolfstraum)

Lee


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I would want the dog to stand its ground. If the ram continued to challenge and got aggressive, then I would expect the dog to grip it, dominate it and subdue the ram into compliance.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I'd expect my dog to not back down, to meet the challenge and move the ram. This is where I expect my dog to problem solve, to figure out how to get the ram moving. My dog had this happen and what she did was to leave the ram standing there, ran back to the herd and pulled out a ewe and herded her up to the ram and then herded both back to the flock. Once the ram had the ewe with him, he became amendable to moving.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I would want the dog to stand its ground. If the ram continued to challenge and got aggressive, then I would expect the dog to grip it, dominate it and subdue the ram into compliance.


this is why this breed , GSD, has active aggression in its character profile.

the sheep that were common to Germany were not the flighty British sheep which
could be influenced with the keen eye of the border collie.

the German sheep were big , strong, obstinate. The dogs needed to have a look of
authority and power , physical determination to impose their will . No back down.

This overall aura of competent power maintained calm in the flock.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

And you also have to determine in when a ram won't back down and you don't want physical damage to a prized ram, the ability to think, to problem solve. GSDs were bred for their intelligence as well. Most times a dog can physically move a ram, but sometimes during mating season, you can find rams much more difficult to work with.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

There are some YouTube videos dogs making sure the Rams stand down not of Gsd per say. One ram attacked the sheep herder- the handler. I was surprised dog did nothing or try to drive it away. Is it common for Rams to attack sheep herders? She looked okay but got knocked down. Just curious.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

This actually happened with my older female-who has passed away-she herded sheep at my younger females breeders place-she stood her ground-she had the typical shepherd temperament aloof -it used to crack me up because people would make a big fuss about how beautiful she was and she would act like they didn't exist...according to my schutzhund trainer she sucked at schutzhund but then so did I...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Jenny720 said:


> There are some YouTube videos dogs making sure the Rams stand down not of Gsd per say. One ram attacked the sheep herder- the handler. I was surprised dog did nothing or try to drive it away. Is it common for Rams to attack sheep herders? She looked okay but got knocked down. Just curious.


had this discussion just the other day with Saphire , trying to explain what a "header" was.

A very strong dog capable of facing the livestock head on and insisting on it being controlled.

had one - 
Sumo , Journey's brother and Gus's sire -- same . Saw him challenge a ram that had come onto my property . We have 100 acres immediately behind our back property line where the farmer alternates crops and sheep meadows .
That sheep would not budge . He kept coming.
The dog , still young !, faced him, stood his ground , got the sheep shifted to move and then he took a run at the sheep , T-boning him . Dog and sheep did a full body skid . And then the sheep tried to find an spot to cross the fence.

Farmer was phoned and he came with his all-terrain to control things on his side of the fence.

went to a local person who has sheep and conducts herding classes.

that day there was a border collie in the session - so much prey - sheep got excited, dog got into his zone where nothing else exists -- sheep not controlled -- they were jumping up , waist high , and were trying to jump onto the dog - 

Gus's brother Pax has been working sheep for some time. Natural from the get - go . Now undertaking cattle --


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

carmspack said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > There are some YouTube videos dogs making sure the Rams stand down not of Gsd per say. One ram attacked the sheep herder- the handler. I was surprised dog did nothing or try to drive it away. Is it common for Rams to attack sheep herders? She looked okay but got knocked down. Just curious.
> ...


 I expect a German shepherd who herds sheep be able to handle a ram its part of the job. My surprise was when the ram went after the handler with the dog right there. I understand what you are saying. Max is doing incredibly well sheep herding -by the way -now since he is maturing and has been processing things more. I'm the one that needs assistance in the area of sheepherding though. We jut got back from a trail walk near our property- 3cats darted across our path at 3 different times. Max had no leash on and simple leave it is all that was needed. He was alert but simmered down and continued our walk. Can't be more proud my boy, since where we live there are many feral cats and always has been on our biggest challenge as they lurk on our property. He has ignored the cats awhile now but figure I would add it in.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Jenny720 said:


> There are some YouTube videos dogs making sure the Rams stand down not of Gsd per say. One ram attacked the sheep herder- the handler. I was surprised dog did nothing or try to drive it away. Is it common for Rams to attack sheep herders? She looked okay but got knocked down. Just curious.



When ewes are in season some rams will go after the shepherd, they want no one, no others around their ewes. Once a friend and I were in the pen training a young raw dog and she hadn't realize yet the ewes were in season and the ram came after us. We used our crooks and had our backs to each other making our out way out of the pen as the ram kept making passes at us.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" as the ram kept making passes at us"

I guess you weren't interested then ?

LOL 

there are reasons Rams are symbolic for virility .


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

ROFL, nope! No interest at all!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Deb said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > There are some YouTube videos dogs making sure the Rams stand down not of Gsd per say. One ram attacked the sheep herder- the handler. I was surprised dog did nothing or try to drive it away. Is it common for Rams to attack sheep herders? She looked okay but got knocked down. Just curious.
> ...



Yikes!!!!!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Rams can be nasty for sure. They have quite the reputation amongst people who breed small ruminants. I have been on the receiving end of a goat attack, smaller than a ram. Scary, let me tell you.

I have a question. Why is IPO so prevalent as the gold standard for how to judge a GSD (exchange for your wording here, I didn't say that super well), and not herding, since that's what they were originally intended to do?

Is it because a whole herd of sheep and the land to keep them on is harder to come by than a field with some blinds and a helper/decoy?

Because ranching sheep is not a thing that many people do for a living anymore? Most people aren't really using their dogs as personal protection dogs or police k9s either


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Herding for titles is hard to do in many areas...and the HIT can be a silly test many times. If the dog is on sheep that have this to deal with over and over and over, is it really a test? Friend of mine has her young female at Ulf K.s for the year....he is working her dog and will title her, supposedly he does only take on one dog at a time for this. When the dog returns to her, she will send out another. I have no idea the price of this(co-own so the breeder is paying for it) Ulf posts on FB the progress, it is interesting to follow.
I took my dog to a local AKC herding judge, she is doing tending, border patrol type and has many head of sheep. The sheep aren't involved ever in any type of testing for dogs as she travels out of state to do clinics and such(her neighbors are crazy and she can't have people coming and going with dogs often). Her own dogs are Am lines, very good at herding, her old dog Cash who recently passed away was amazing in the work. 

My dog was instinctive at knowing border type tending for his first time out. So was a friends dog from the same breeder as my dog. 
But it was still somewhat controlled setting, only a few rogue sheep decided to move away from the flock and boundary area. Our dogs did use their brain and kept the sheep where they needed to be. Very high threshold and kept their cool.

Where I live, we have several sheep farms. They don't use dogs often(I do see border collies on one property), use a bell to bring the sheep to the barns, they have llama's and donkeys for protection from coyotes. 4 wheelers when needed to move sheep.
It is now lambing season. The coyotes will be busy in the area.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Well, I know how my female would act since we did herding for over a year.

Goats and cattle mostly.

Very strong dog, intense (too intense for sheep in the beginning as she would cause panic when she entered the pen).

Has been charged by both goats and cattle, goats were taken head on. No hesitation, they went into her mouth (harsh correction from dog to goat for not listening). She does NOT like it when they are unruly. 

We had some hard lessons together learning that she must take direction from me, and in order for me to give her "my" sheep she had to comply. It was a challenge as she can be much faster, smarter and harder than I can.

Cattle was given more respect but she had no problems with pressure.

She would put herself in between fence lines and gates with no issues, had a great natural balance and in the end she was getting better about letting the livestock hang out and graze rather than just being obedient to her desires.

I know if I continued with it she would do very well. Lessons were too expensive and when I worked my parents or families animals it was too long of a drive for us.

I'd expect a GSD to perform realivelty the same, maybe just not with such intensity.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would love to go to Ulf Kintzel -HGH herding its a 6 hour drive way to far. I do know Max would love it though no doubt- sheep heaven. We are having fun and it's a 15 minute drive for sheep herding lessons.


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