# GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg



## Stupid (Dec 11, 2008)

I am a little confused. 

I read Ed Leerburg's website, http://leerburg.com where he fiercely argues against family dogs being near the family kids. Another thing is that he insists that one person becomes the pack leader and discourages anybody else even touching the dog.

Does his view really make sense? I do respect his experience, but if my wife and kids cannot even play with my dog, what's the point of having a dog not a stuffed animal?

also his dog park thing really throw me off. where else do I socialize my dog? subway station?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

*Re: GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg*



> Originally Posted By: Stupid
> also his dog park thing really throw me off. where else do I socialize my dog? subway station?


absolutely the subway station - and any and every place else you can think of in which your pup would be allowed. socializing is not just limited to "dog play" at the park... its socializing them to people, places, dogs and other animals in controlled and uncontrolled environments.

i only take my dogs to the dog park occasionally because its easy for them to think that seeing other dogs = play play play, which can result in pulling and barking and jumping around on leash in public places. especially for puppies because "playtime" is what they want to do naturally. there is a play date that my young male is involved in a few days a week but he has to earn his play by walking calmly on the leash near the dogs and a short obedience session. at most its 15 other dogs... i try to avoid designated dog park situations unless its a continuous walk or hike where we are merely passing other dogs.

even the most solid nerved puppies need to be introduced to things like crowds, bikes, cars, roller skates and skateboards, children, horses, wheel chairs, and anything else that they may come in contact with later. reason 1 being for training purposes - having an obedient dog around distractions. and 2 is so that they arent fearful of these things later in life and become shy or aggressive.

but aside from all that - to answer your question in short - the number one place to socialize your dog with other dogs (or pup with pups) is training classes.


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

*Re: GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg*

Everyone has an opinion and Leerburg is where you find Ed Frawley's.

Both kids and dog parks are potentially tragic. Play dates and classes are much safer venues.
Supervision with YOUR kids will eventually not be constantly necessary, but is only prudent with strangers some kids are sadistic morons.
Dog parks have too little supervision, and even some totally ignorant handlers who have no control or even encourage bullying, probably the parents of before mentioned problem kids.

You can google this site for threads and find stories of these tragedies if you need further validation of these tragedies, or learn the hard way, which is what Ed was cautioning against, albeit in his own unique way.

Kids can become prey items with there little size and darting about ways. Herding dogs have plenty of prey drive, and will nip and herd,
as they are hard wired to do. Do the math.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

What Fodder said. Really, training classes are the place to let your dog see other dogs in a safe, controlled environment. As for the kids and wife interacting with the dog-- of course they should. BUT, not until they are ALL on board with how the dog is to be rewarded... yes, rewarded... because eye contact, chatter, touching, attention of ANY kind are all rewards and reinforcers.

Example: Buster paws at little daughter. Both little daughter and Mom immediately give eye contact (look directly at) Buster and chit-chat at the dog: "Hey! Cut that out! Don't do that, Buster! You don't jump or paw at us!" The dog has just gotten rewarded for pawing: Eye contact, chit-chat, and the biggie: ATTENTION.

See how easy it is for family members to UN-train a dog into bad/dangerous behaviors? Yes, the family MUST be on board with the training rules before they can interact daily with the dog.


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## Bowen (Jul 24, 2008)

*Re: GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg*

Leerburg's training method is different and you have to understand his background (police dog unit) and the type of dogs he mainly train(protection dog/working dog). Meaning, his methods of training is to develop to have the dog see you and only you as the leader, and therefore to obey and follow your command. For example, if a police dog is going after a suspect, how good will it be if the suspect is able to tell the dog sit down instead of taking him down. That is where Leerburg's method is coming from.

As for a family pet, I don't see there is any point to go as far as leerburg's method. However, I do agree with Leerburg that in your household between you and your family, you need to set the pack order and leader. That person should be the one that is able to spend the most time with the dog out of everyone in your home and that person should do most of the training. But it does not mean your dog can't be approached by other family members. Infact, in my training class with my boy, our trainer recommands us to bring out family members to participate. That way the dog will learn to accept commands given out by other family members. Or else my boy will think he can only listen to dad.

As for kids and dog, you just gotta be careful and understand your dog's temperment. If your dog like to play rough and do everything at 100mph, then I would not let your kids be alone with the dog. However, on the other hand, if your dog is gentle then is fine.

As for dog parks, just be careful when you take your dogs there. You can't predict what other dogs will behave and react with your dog. One dog can be perfectly gentle with another dogs but can also be very aggressive towards yours. There is nothing wrong dog parks itself, but just becareful and keep your eyes on your dog at all time. Personally, I carry some form of object (a stick or one those tennis ball launcher) in my hands when I take my dog to the dog park. Because if some idiot owner who doesn't care or doesn't know their dog is aggressive and doesn't step in when their dog is being aggressive. By that, I mean if another dog is going after my and their owner isn't doing anything about it, then I will step in and do anything and everything to protect my boy. If i have to kick another dog then so be it. I know it sounds mean and harsh, but bottom line is I much rather pay that vet bill than having my dog to suffer. Leerburg is against dog park is because again, he want his dogs to look up to him for everything in their lives. Also he got a massive farm land for his dog to run, play and excercise but most of us don't have that.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

There's alot of good recommendations in our puppy forum for socialization (click here) 

My personal favorite (and you should bring your camera along so you can add you photos...) is this one (click here)


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: StupidI am a little confused.
> 
> I read Ed Leerburg's website, http://leerburg.com where he fiercely argues against family dogs being near the family kids. Another thing is that he insists that one person becomes the pack leader and discourages anybody else even touching the dog.
> 
> Does his view really make sense?


To me, no. I got a dog to be - first and foremost - a good companion. That means the dog must be social in any circumstance. We take the dogs to parks, outdoor festivals, friends houses for parties, etc. I want my dogs to be able to interact with strangers - of ANY age - without any issues.

Many of the people that frequent his website and follow his teachings are people that got a dog - first and foremost - as an object. They want a top competition, prize winning dog and are willing to go to any lengths to get it. Even to the point of dumping the dog at a very young age if it doesn't show the "right stuff".

This happens in EVERY sport - from the show ring to obedience to agility and on. To these people the dog is not a family companion, not even a pet - the dog is a personal possession. If it doesn't work right get rid of it and buy a new one.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The Gang
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: StupidI am a little confused.
> ...


Me too, and that includes being social with other dogs as well. Not necessarily to play with them, (ours would play with each other and us at the park not the other dogs), but I do want them to be comfortable being around strange dogs and capable of EITHER ignoring other dogs as we pass, or of friendly greetings - butt sniffs, tail wags, muzzle licks, whatever. Now that Dena is gone, Keefer will interact with other dogs more than he used to, but usually that's just accepting a blatant "chase me" invitation by another dog, he doesn't really initiate. And that's because he's been used to having doggy companionship his whole life. 

We go to the kind of parks where we're walking continuously unless we happen to stop and talk to another dog owner, (usually a GSD person), not the small fenced kind where everyone stands around watching their dogs play. We bring tennis balls, a Jolly Ball, and a flying squirrel for Keefer to chase, and two of the three parks we frequent are on the beach and the SF Bay, so he can swim too. Since we have a tiny yard, we go for play and exercise, the socialization is just a bonus, and we also like to use the distraction of the other dogs as a training tool, requiring that he sit (or down, depending on which we command) and watches us until released before throwing a toy.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my last GSD was raised with my 2 children whom were 2 and 4 years old and my wife. from 4 months old to 7 months old we had a trainer. my wife and i shared our duties with the dog. he was a family pet and protector. he was well socialized. our dog was raised with us as part of the family.

i've never raised a dog to think that his pack has one leader. all of my dogs bond with whom they are living with. i don't think a dog really questions who's in charge. a dog doesn't need to be pack leader. a dog might see himself as pack leader because we do everything for them. we feed them twice a day, we make sure they have water, we bathe them, we treat them, they ride in the back of the car, we take them to school (puppy classes or to a trainer), they live indoors with heat and AC. what's there really for a dog to challenge? 

i say make your dog a part of the family. you and your wife take care of him and train him. he'll bond with you, your wife and children. as far as that pack leader stuff, i've never had a problem with my dogs. my dogs listen to me and i listen to them. when they want to jump on the sofa with me i move over.

the puppy/dog i have now was raised with my GF and i. i made sure he was socialized with other adults and children. we attended puppy classes at 10 weeks old. i use to hang out in front of the supermarket so he could petted by all of the customers coming and going.

when my boy was old enough we started going to the dog park. we also walked in the woods alot so we were alway meeting other dogs, people and horses.

good luck with your dog. how old is your dog? what are you going to do with your dog?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You are going to find a lot of different opinions on the "right" way to do things on the internet, including on this website. Some people will tell you that taking your dog to a dog park is risking her/his life while others will tell you how wonderful they are. The answer lies somewhere in between: some dog parks are great and others are not as great. It depends on the people and dogs that go there. And some dogs do really well at dog parks and others not so well. Without dog parks my Basu, who was extremely fearful from abuse, would never have come as far as he did in terms of building confidence. For my dog, Chama, the dog park was kind of boring. 

I also have dogs to be my companions. I have had gsds or gsd mixes for more than 20 years now and when I adopted my first dog I had no idea what I was doing. We made some mistakes together but she turned out to be an absolutely wonderful dog companion and ambassador for the breed. She was fabulous with children and people actually requested I bring her to public events so that she could play with their children. 

I take my dogs almost everywhere with me. I train and socialize my dogs for the duration of their lives because I want them to be good canine citizens who are welcome wherever I go. Rafi has been in to work with me the past two days and everyone loved him and are asking when he's coming back. I do let my dogs interact with other dogs and also with children, every chance I get. I have never found that allowing my dogs to play with other dogs resulted in poor behavior when they saw other dogs. In fact, it's been just the opposite. The more dog-dog socialization and play time they've had, the less reationary they've been on walks, etc because the mystery/excitement goes away quickly when you get access to it all of the time. 

I recommend reading books like Patricia McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash" to get a better sense of who dogs are, what they need and how they can best fit into our lives.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

*Re: GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg*



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowYou are going to find a lot of different opinions on the "right" way to do things on the internet, including on this website. Some people will tell you that taking your dog to a dog park is risking her/his life while others will tell you how wonderful they are. The answer lies somewhere in between: some dog parks are great and others are not as great. It depends on the people and dogs that go there. And some dogs do really well at dog parks and others not so well.










I totally agree. Although I frequent off leash parks regularly, usually starting from around 4 months old, my overall philosophy on the practice is "depends on the park, depends on the dog. Some dogs aren't a good candidate for ANY kind of off leash park. Some off leash parks I wouldn't take ANY dog to, even the most friendly, well socialized dog. But if you've got a dog that's comfortable around other dogs and you've got access to a great park with responsible owners and other well behaved, social, dogs, then they can be a great way to get your dog out for exercise, play, and hiking adventures. 

Edited to add: Ditto on the book recommendation!


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## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

Just a couple of questions for the original poster
1. Is this your first dog ?
2. How old are your children?
Our guys are family companions.Their ages are 6yrs (lab) 5yrs(male shepherd) 3 yrs (female shepherd). All three have been through OB classes, but agility( for fun) has been our nitch.They have gotten much socialization through these classes. Our instructor will even allow me to bring in one of my guys at a time while he is doing a puppy class, we sit quietly in a corner of the room working on simple commands, we don't disturb the puppy class.There are lots of different ways to socialize. we are in a rurual area, so we go for drives to the nearest shopping mall, take the dogs for a walk.Yes its important to socialize.
Regarding children..... our life changed in June of 07.Our daughter moved back home with us and our grandsons ages 1yr and 4 yrs old.We have a very small house 2 bedrooms.So we are very cramped.After 6 months, our dogs crates came down, it was done gradually. We needed the room. Instead we now have homemade plywood gates between the rooms.We had to teach 2 small energetic boys and 3 very large energetic dogs to SAFELY live together.We didn't need a trainer for this. You can read all sorts of books, articles talk to people so much that your head will spin and you won't know what to do.Its very basic... good old common sense and using good judgement.I laugh with my daughter(she is not a dog person), she thought the gates went up to keep the dogs away from the boys... not so, its to keep the boys from the dogs !Its a matter of teaching children the correct way to play with a dog, or approach a dog, don't get on the hands and knees and stare and bark.The list can go on.My grandson will be 6 in Feb. and it is his job to feed all 3 at night.He counts out the scoops and he makes them SIT before their dishes go down for them.All this with supervision.Supervision is one of the keys when it comes to children and dogs.
In our household my husband and I both share the responsibilities of our K9 kids. It works for us.
I think with training for household companions, you need to take a little of this and a little of that and take what works for you.
Good luck and enjoy !


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

There are somethings Leerburg does I like, there is a lot I don't like. I use what I do like and disgard what I don't. 

I think he gives good warning about dog parks, his points about not letting random people pet your dog (can) make sense. Take it for what its worth!

I love his points about (well not just his) leashing the dog to you as a pup, I think it is great advice.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

If you want your dog to be a family dog that plays with your children and social, socialize him. If you aren't sure how to do that, get a trainer to help you.

If you want a "guard" dog that doesn't play with your children, don't let anyone else pet them. This can lead to some severe problems in my opinion. I have seen it first hand with pups that have been treated this way, and it is quite sad. They are very distrustful of anyone besides their "leader" and are not approachable by people, say at a pet store. 
I like my dog to be able to be pet by people at the pet store, as well as children. So I took him to the pet store, on walks, the park and beach, and took treats so they could encourage him to be friendly. It worked out great. (besides him being so friendly he will go home with anyone! haha)

It depends on what you want, and I think following your common sense will lead you in the right direction.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I agree with Frawley's opinion on dog parks. Don't agree with 99.9% of the rest of his opinions on socialization though.

We have always socialized the snot out of our dogs around different people, places, things, and other dogs (only dogs we KNOW to be safe, health wise and temperament wise). It has had no negative impact on their ability to focus on us and tune out distractions, their ability to work, or their ability to do protection (both sport and real life).


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## adas (Nov 22, 2008)

*Re: GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg*

Aloha, I don't see having a "guard dog" and having a pet for your children are mutually exclusive. Although I have only owned Rasa (or vice versa) for 1 month, she will love you or strangers to death during the day. At night she is "all business", takes only short naps at nite and ears always listening for the unusual. (Even people that she is friendly with during the day, she will alert and possibly even growl/bark until she identifies them). There is no doubt, she is a guard dog and a [censored]-cat loyal friend. But if you are talking about a dog that will rip your arm off on command, that is a different story.
Frank
Edit note. On reading this whole thread, I just got lucky with Rasa being the temperment and has already been socialized and trained. Starting from scratch, a lot of effort and concerns as stated above from the experts in this thread has to go into it.


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

I totally agree with Frawley on the 'no kids' thing...
They shouldn't be allowed to hang out together, they might sleep...or run!




























Also, all 3 of my boys can give commands (that are acknowledged and carried out), walk the dogs on a loose lead, etc.
I won't have a dog in the house that my children can't interact with, it just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't go with the '1' leader deal. The dogs are, and know they are, under all two legged beings in the house. It hasn't caused any issues.

Dog parks OTOH...I'm not a big fan. Too many idiots who shouldn't have their dogs anywhere near another dog and/or have no clue what acceptable interaction is tend to ruin the experience.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Addition to my previous post, I forgot about dog parks. Like others have said, it depends on the dog, it depends on the park, and I think, it depends on the experience and knowledge of the owners.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

One more note ... to think that our GSDs cannot be family pets AND protectors is doing them a great disservice.


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## GSDog (Mar 5, 2008)

*Re: GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg*

I would never again go back to a dog park with my GS. He is now 14months old but we stopped going when he was about 7months old. He started to get aggressive for no reason. We were going to this dog park with good dogs but not good owners. Major was about 3 months old and he loved the park and played and ran and all. Till a few bigger dogs would grab him, dragged him and hurt him. I would run to the dogs and split them up. Yes me only cause them owners didnt care till I had to tell them. Then when Major got around 8months old he started to bark and growl at them bigger dogs. Now that he is bigger than them and more powerful, he now knows he can bring down any dog. 

He loves to play with people and kids and all but not dogs. So now we have to re-train him slowly with other dogs. And its one at the time. Hard work. But do let your kids play with the dogs. Do let your kids be part of the dog's life. If not, like you said, get a stuff dog. Just keep an eye out on the child with other dogs while yours is with them. They can be protectors.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangOne more note ... to think that our GSDs cannot be family pets AND protectors is doing them a great disservice.


Agreed! But you should not have to manipulate their environment to the point of not letting anyone pet your puppy/dog. 

My old "boss" would tell people this same thing, that if they want a guard dog they shouldn't let anyone pet their dog, ever. He didn't want his dog to be friendly to people, even friends, but just tolerate their presence basically, only if he told him to of course.







So to him it was guard dog, or "sissy, worthless" dog. (*I don't work there anymore)

So when I said earlier if you want a guard dog, I meant in Leerburg terms. Just to clear that up!









I think most GSD's of a somewhat stable temperment will have a protective side that doesn't need to be overly encouraged. (depending on what you are going for, basic barking/intimidation of a suspicious person outside your fence/door is what I am referring to, NOT friends or just people passing by). 

Obviously many people have dogs they train with in schutzhund and are great family dogs as well. I am draggin this out huh? Basically I agree with Lauri, but want to throw in there that many GSD's don't have the right temperment to really be a "guard" dog (definition depending on the person) when it comes down to the nitty gritty, but I don't think that is necessary anyhow. I think having a GSD is a visual deterrent in itself, and a barking/fence-door charging GSD is definitely a deterrent to most people. 
So a GSD that is actually going to bite an intruder isn't necessary in most situations anyway, and I don't think it should be encouraged to most owners either (liability/experience reasons). But I would love to hear other opinions on this as well.









sorry for my rambling, I had a glass of wine tonight


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangOne more note ... to think that our GSDs cannot be family pets AND protectors is doing them a great disservice.


I totally agree.

Reich was raised with my kids, I socialized the holy **** out of her too.

That didn't keep her from deterring a would be car jacker for me, and it doesn't keep her from alerting when someone comes onto the property.

For me, that's all I need...an alert. It's my pistol's job to handle anything beyond that.


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Ditto. 

As far as dog parks go, I went from hating them to loving them to in between. I think that not all dogs are dogpark dogs. As someone else said, we go primarily for the exercise. With our young lab, Cori, we are very careful what dogs we put her in with. With our older dogs, we just kind of threw them in with any dogs that wanted to play because we didn't know any better. In adolescence they began to develop some antisocial behavior towards dogs and in retrospect we figure that is the cause.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

*Re: GSD and kids & dog park - Ed Leerburg*

Every time I go to the leerburg site I'm turned off. I have yet to see him say anything that helps me be comfortable with his ways. I watched one of his videos he has on his site that deals with how a prong collar can come off when giving a strong correction. His definition of strong correction is to me more like like animal cruelty. If I corrected my dog like he tried to in this video, I'd be afraid my dog would have a broken neck and you can bet neither one would ever let me get near them again with any kind of collar. It was SCARY to see a person jerk a collar like this guy did. Thank goodness the collar popped off! 

A GSD can be and many times is both, family dog and protector, no doubt in my mind. Now, some of them can be a little "rough" in their play with kids, which should be monitored and rough play should be able to be trained out of them. Some would not be a good idea to have around small children because they can knock them over. Then there's the fact that little hands and arms aren't tough skinned and a slight nip could do some damage so you'd want to be sure you don't have little kids around a nippy/mouthy dog of any kind. It's like they don't know their own strength or something like that, but I would consider this is true for any larger dog, it's not just a GSD thing.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Regarding dog parks, when it comes to the GSD, I agree with Ed.

However, when it comes to kids and family I tend to disagree. Most Sherperds are fine with family and friends. And most of the subsequent comments about the GSD, and the dog's relationship regarding family and friends are right on.

Despite my disagreements with Ed, I will add that he has been very helpful regarding my son's yellow lab, a dog that is highly competitive, and initially went to a trainer that knew less then anyone on this post. Ed's advice, back off, this is not a dog that needs to be trained like a GS police dog.


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