# Is the Belgian Malinois replacing the German shepherd dog?



## GSD_Dakota (Dec 24, 2013)

Here in Canada, German shepherd dogs dominate our forces. Along with China, UK and other places. But in American and more popular places like Germany too, the Belgian Malinois is really popular now?
I don't agree with the change, to be honest. I noticed many Malinois want to bite people, and have to be reminded by their handlers not everyone is for biting... 
I like the breed and all, but it's sad to seem them just throwing the German shepherd away so easily. The German shepherd served us for over 100 years, and seeing they can dump them away isn't all that cool. Max von Stephanitz won't be to pleased.

Where you are, are the German shepherds being forgotten ?


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## scout172 (Sep 14, 2013)

Here in Monrovia California the German shepards are not being forgotten. There in fact is many including my own scout!!!!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Go talk to guys who sell these dogs to LE and the Military. They either go to europe or have agents there. They look at 100s of dogs each year. You are much more likely to find a dog with the right working traits and health in the malinois camp. The reason being they are mainly bred for work not shows or any other sillyness. Dog cant work = its useless and not bred. What your likely seeing is bad training and handling. Mals are not the breed for everyone and thats been what has saved them from getting ruined.

Now within mals there are different lines
FCI lines more sporty and not known for consistently producing hard dogs. However they have started mixing in some KNPV dogs. Many of these dogs get sold to LE.

AKC showline not very many of these. The workability and aggression has been bred out of them. They do shows and are used in soft sports like obedience and agility.

KNPV lines. These are not registered dogs though they have a pedigree. These are dutchy\mals. They are bred for hardness, aggression, athleticsm and nerve strength. They cull hard. The entire program is oriented towards selling the dogs to military or LE. 
They consistently produce good dogs, that 99% of pet owners would never be able to handle without getting eaten..lol. 

On a personal note when you work a mal or dutchy if its decent it eclipses a good gsd. Its like comparing a sedan to a sports car. Faster, harder and more precise.

The GSD is heading out the door for many reasons. Just look at many of the threads and posts on this board for your starting point. There are still and will always be some good onesbut not even close to the numbers of mals / dutchies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think, like with everything else, it is going through a phase. It used to be that law enforcement wanted dogs that German Shepherds fit their requirements very well. They liked the size and other characteristics that GSDs are better than mals or dutchies. 

But then officers started working with these other breeds, and were probably laughed at at first. On the other hand, these dogs probably did spectacular on the proficiency testing, and other people jumped on the band wagon. I think it has changed what was expected of police dogs. Just like I don't think we need to have golden retrievers in GSD bodies, I don't think it is any more correct to have Malinois in GSD bodies. 

If some of the police requirements favor the other breeds, fine. I think many of them have come back to GSDs, because the breed is excellent in many ways, and I also think that some of the lines are closer to the requirements they currently have than others.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I know back home, the PD has a mixture of GSDs, Mals, and I believe they JUST got a dutchie. GSDs still dominant the K9 force back home. Also I've seen more GSD military dogs than I've seen dutchies or Mals. I know a lot of what you're seeing is departments deciding they want the lighter more healthy mals while other departments will spend the time to search for healthy GSDs with solid hips. Out here I've seen mostly GSDs as K9s. I think there is ONE mal on the force here but I cant be sure. I know a lot of the MWDs are bred in a breeding program that belongs solely to the air force but they will seek outside dogs as well. 

Its really a matter of where you are and what the departments/handlers themselves prefer working with.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

We see a mix. Our local departments use an even mix of GSD, Mal, and Dutchie crosses. Usually it's Dutch/GSD cross. Which is very cool looking. 

I think a lot has to depend on the people picking the dog. I know in my county department, more than a few of the dogs have been purchased as puppies by a handler, raised and then sold to the department by the handler. It's a great department, very nice stable dogs. Save for the odd few. 

Mals are cheaper, smaller, can have longer careers. But again, it's all in the department and how they acquire their dogs. 


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Unfortunately its not a phase or a fad it is numbers. The amount of gsds that can pass a brokers tests both physical and mental are diminishing. I know one well known broker who supplies certain agencies went from a healthy mix of both breeds to almost exclusively knpv dogs. He still buys a few gsds per year but no more then 5 - 7 per year. 
Some of the top echelon agencies wont even buy gsds anymore which is sad..


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## Vagus (Oct 7, 2012)

Here in New Zealand GSDs still dominate. In fact, I've only ever seen a belgian malinois once in person, and that was at a training club, after everyone had already left. One of the trainers had brought him out and he was muzzled and in some sort of training harness and he was pulling like a monster . Protection sports are still largely uncommon here, in fact there's only one schutzhund club in the entire country. 

Out of curiosity I looked up Mal breeders one day to get a feel for their popularity here and I only found 1! To be fair though, I've only ever found about 4 working GSD kennels too and have met only one working line GSD. There's also only one registered Dutchie in the entire country, belonging to one of the working line GSD kennels I found on my search. Would some of you lovely american breeders please set up camp here and show me your lovely, stable working line dogs  I'm apprehensive about the tiny working gene pool here


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## GSD_Dakota (Dec 24, 2013)

Is bad breeding a part of the reason German shepherd dogs are not being used like before? I mean, many show lines have no aggression at all and can't move correctly. I'm not saying show lines are terrible though, but I'd never own one.

I heard GSDs are slowly fading because of the show dog breeding. Weak nerves= not a good Police/Military dog.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I have NEVER seen a good GSD or Mal outperform the other. Show me the "best" mal and the "best" GSD and you'll be hard pressed to find how one is better than the other. Work enough and you'll know. 

There are plenty of GSD's that are too slow, too big, too lazy, to weak in temperament, too low in drive too whatever to be anything other than a pet. There are also plenty of Mal's who's drive, can at times, make up for their lack of nerves. There are a lot, and I do mean, a lot of nerve bag ****s called a belgian Malinois that will never make a decent working dog, ever. They might excel at a prey based sport because drive can override nerves at times, but a "working dog" ? please.

Then you have those that are of good temperament and drive, and there are plenty of both. I think it comes down to money, plain and simple, money. One costs a lot more than the other


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD_Dakota said:


> Is bad breeding a part of the reason German shepherd dogs are not being used like before? I mean, many show lines have no aggression at all and can't move correctly. I'm not saying show lines are terrible though, but I'd never own one.
> 
> I heard GSDs are slowly fading because of the show dog breeding. Weak nerves= not a good Police/Military dog.


Merry Christmas to you. As a gift just for you this Christmas, I am going to tell you that there are a lot of people on this forum and in the world that have showline dogs, who love them, who use them, who do not think they move funny at all. There are plenty of showline dogs that have been and still are police dogs. 

As for show dogs being the reason their use by police/military is faing, that's ridiculous. The working and show line dogs have a chasm between them, and pretty much, most breeders do not cross over the lines. The show-line dogs have not polluted the working lines, and some of the show line fanciers are tired of people who don't have them expressing how dissatisfied they are with them.

Merry Christmas!


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## GSD_Dakota (Dec 24, 2013)

selzer said:


> Merry Christmas to you. As a gift just for you this Christmas, I am going to tell you that there are a lot of people on this forum and in the world that have showline dogs, who love them, who use them, who do not think they move funny at all. There are plenty of showline dogs that have been and still are police dogs.
> 
> As for show dogs being the reason their use by police/military is faing, that's ridiculous. The working and show line dogs have a chasm between them, and pretty much, most breeders do not cross over the lines. The show-line dogs have not polluted the working lines, and some of the show line fanciers are tired of people who don't have them expressing how dissatisfied they are with them.
> 
> Merry Christmas!



I didn't mean to start anything, but I still don't agree with the concept of show line. German shepherd dogs were meant to be working dogs, not show dogs. I do know there are some pretty badass show lines out there, I just watched a video yesterday. Max Vom Stephanitz clearly stated he wanted his dogs to remain a working dog, apparently people didn't accept that fact and decided they'd do the opposite. Show lines are become more and more extreme- its hard to find decent working lines now, show lines are everywhere..
Like I said, I got nothing against them, they're dogs too; they know how to love too, but I don't agree with it still. Merry Christmas to you too


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Mals are cheaper. They have less health problems. They are readily available as green dogs in Europe. They test well for brokers because of their prey drive, which makes them quick to train.

All that said, my next working dog will be a GSD because I like how they work. If I was doing Mondio, I would get a Mal. 

One need only look at the majority of posts on this GSD forum to see why the breed is suffering. Anytime that the appearance of a dog is placed in higher value than the working ability of the dog the breed is going to suffer for it. Look at all the puppy biting threads. Working line dogs are landsharks. This is common knowledge, but people don't research the breed before they purchase. 

Then there are all the people that want a lamb in wolf's clothing. Working dogs take experience, time, patience, money and a real life mentor to train. If the demand wasn't there for soft dogs with no drive, the breeders wouldn't breed them. If the public would purchase dogs of the breed that suited their lifestyle, dogs and owners would both be happier, but that isn't the sace. People like the look of the GSD, so they buy one, regardless of temperament and ability, or they purposely seek out dogs that are too weak to work.

Mals haven't gone through this surge in public demand yet, so the breed is relatively spared from irresponsible breeding, for the most part. It will happen sooner or later. I hope the KNPV breeders hold out and refuse to sell to inappropriate homes.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Go talk to guys who sell these dogs to LE and the Military. They either go to europe or have agents there. They look at 100s of dogs each year. You are much more likely to find a dog with the right working traits and health in the malinois camp. The reason being they are mainly bred for work not shows or any other sillyness. Dog cant work = its useless and not bred. What your likely seeing is bad training and handling. Mals are not the breed for everyone and thats been what has saved them from getting ruined.
> 
> Now within mals there are different lines
> FCI lines more sporty and not known for consistently producing hard dogs. However they have started mixing in some KNPV dogs. Many of these dogs get sold to LE.
> ...


You seem very knowledgable on the topic which brought another question to mind along the lines of this thread. I have no experience with any of the Malinois lines only GSD's. Which dog (both soundly based) do you think is the most versatile across the board? Both working and social?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSD_Dakota said:


> I didn't mean to start anything, but I still don't agree with the concept of show line. German shepherd dogs were meant to be working dogs, not show dogs. I do know there are some pretty badass show lines out there, I just watched a video yesterday. Max Vom Stephanitz clearly stated he wanted his dogs to remain a working dog, apparently people didn't accept that fact and decided they'd do the opposite. Show lines are become more and more extreme- its hard to find decent working lines now, show lines are everywhere..
> Like I said, I got nothing against them, they're dogs too; they know how to love too, but I don't agree with it still. Merry Christmas to you too


Max Von Stephanits set up the SV, which held shows. Dog shows. Max required that the dog pass a breed survey that measures the dog against the standard -- which IS showing. Max chose the Sieger and Siegerin. Max understood that conformation was important, and some of the same things that people today grouse about with respect to the dogs' structure, Max had a hand in because of which dog he chose as Sieger. 

The concept of showing dogs is not the problem. The concept is good actually. Some judges have not done a great job at assessing the temperament, and interpreting the standard with regards to conformation. Some have favored certain extremes to balance. But the problem is not the idea of shows, it is finding the right judges and letting them know that we prize dogs who are balanced, and can function as a herding dog. 

There are some problems in the show lines sure. Not all of them. But the answer is not to throw out the standard completely and scoff at the idea of having a dog that adheres to the standard both in conformation and temperament.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Mals ARE becoming more popular as working dogs and as pets. I follow the mal rescue page on FB and there are an unbelievable number of mals (including pregnant mals with pb mal puppies) ending up shelters. It is just awful. 

Gsds have huge numbers of health problems but any breed that surges in popularity will, unfortunately, suffer the same fate as greedy people breed without concern for the welfare of the dogs or betterment of the breed. 

I honestly think it would do the breed a lot of good to become less popular for a long while. I hope it's not at the expense of mals, who can be phenomenal dogs 
but are not the best dog for most people.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the German shepards may not be forgotten but
what about the German Shepherds?



scout172 said:


> Here in Monrovia California the German shepards are not being forgotten. There in fact is many including my own scout!!!!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I've got more experience around belgian malinois over gsds under working conditions. I currently have a mix gsd/mal that I am going to put at least a mondioring 1 on he's super easy to train even over many pure mals. On the down side he might need an element of defense out into his bite work to help with his intensity. They're two pretty different breeds. You can make generalizations between the two all day. For sport especially any sport requiring jumps you're going to have an easier time finding a good mal vs a gsd that can do the same stuff.

If you want really flashy blinding speed a mal is where it is at. I will have to take some video of a dog we have at the kennel that moves faster than any dog has business moving. People claim sometimes the gsd has a stopping power advantage over the mal but in many cases that isn't true. There's a mal at my kennel that weighs in at about 85 pounds and can put good decoys on their asses even in a face attack.

Good dog is a good dog though


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

jafo220 said:


> You seem very knowledgable on the topic which brought another question to mind along the lines of this thread. I have no experience with any of the Malinois lines only GSD's. Which dog (both soundly based) do you think is the most versatile across the board? Both working and social?


Im not going to represent myself as an expert, my opinions are based on personal experience wit dogs and talking to and observing people that have been in dogs a lot longer then me.

I will say that imo a GSD if you can find a good one is more likely to be a good family pet/working dog. The issue is finding a good one thats healthy.

If your more into the working aspect of things a good mal/dutchie is just faster, harder, stronger, more dominant (they actually breed for this) etc. They can also be more challenging to live with as a result so not for the average pet owner which I think has preserved them from being ruined like the GSD. That being said there are many people that have Mal/Dutchies that they live with and take everywhere. Its all in the genetics and the upbringing.

Im not worried about the KNPV folks, they are a hard bitten bunch and dont compromise in terms of training and culling. They put pressure on the dogs young and are very goal oriented in their breedings. 
Its actually kind of funny visualizing what a decent KNPV dog would do to the average pet owner in North America. Their focus on producing real aggression is quite interesting if you look into it.

We should ask ourselves how a program that does not engage in showing of any type is the most successful when it comes to consistent production of actual working dogs.
On the other side of the coin you have FCI registered Mals that experienced a dip in workability when structure became a consideration in the breedings. They have gone to KNPV unregistered dogs to try and regain some of that workability. Again, ask yourself why? 

The answer to me is obvious. If you want a working dog you breed for work, anything less then that produces substandard results. Form follows function. 
Anyone can parse Sephanitz quotes but we all know what he would think about the SL GSDs and some of the WL ones too.

BUT since we like Stephanitz quotes lets have at it, here are a few.

*Breeding should never be made with animals that are not in work. The proof of the education of the dog for work is a necessity for admission for breeding, rather than Show honors, which afford a very misleading idea of a dog's value for breeding.*

*Breeding worth and Show Worth are two fundamentally different things which need not have anything to do with each other; and further, a Show award must never be taken as a judgment of Breeding value, but only, and this too with reservations, as an opinion that a dog might possibly be suitable for breeding.*

*Efficiency for work must count for more with the shepherd dog breeder than the honors of the Show Ring.*

*The breeding of shepherd dogs is the breeding of working dogs; and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce shepherd dogs*

*That word "Sport" always means competition for the highest..., but this competition reaches its high-water mark in the show ring, which, just because they demand no real capabilities, ...lead people only too easily astray to lay emphasis entirely on external shape and beauty, instead of on the substance which really matters*

Gotta love Stephanitz quotes...


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Here are a few more favorites.

*We have already agreed that our shepherd dog is a service dog, and that he must only be bred as a service dog. He must therefore ... only be judged as a service dog. With service dogs, suitability ranks higher than beauty*

*The coloring of the dog has no significance whatever for service; our shepherd dog accordingly is not bred for color. Coloring therefore is only a fad of the amateur and as such is often liable to changes of whim.*

*Even the most perfectly built dog is of no use if he does not possess the incentive to give of his best and of his uttermost.*

*We abominate overbreeding because it makes both body and soul unsuitable for work.*

*****When it comes to breeding for business - which is never effected by dealers, at least not by official dealers -, the dog is only a business commodity and nothing more, and is bred and treated as such. There again we encounger another danger for the race. The dog is no longer bred from the point of view of his services to the race, but only because he has a certain market value. In other words, the direction of the breed is influenced no longer by the experts, but by the buyers. The buyer, however, is mostly an unsuspecting novice,....*


Its like he predicted what was going to happen...oh wait, he did!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't want to see this thread turn into a showline bash or I'll shut-er-down

There are good dogs in every flavor you just have to know where to look, be exact in what you want and what you don't want. In the end, most dogs, first and foremost have to be something you can LIVE with.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Pretty much all the K9s in my area are still GSD. I know that Milwaukee PD exclusively uses GSDs. There is a small town a little south that has 1 Mal and 3 GSDs (one of which is a show line!). Until the Mal becomes more used and more seen as a K9, it will be able to stay enough out of the public eye to stay true to the working form. Once more police departments use them, they get more into the media, people will begin breeding more and more for the increased pet market demand.

People like to make a big deal out of it, but if you know where to look, you can get an excellent GSD for work, sport, pet, whatever it is you're interested in. There are plenty of GSD breeders in the United States and in Europe that are producing wonderful working prospects that police departments have no problem snatching up.

There is a big reason in my mind that the Mal is being used more and more...cheaper...initially, you don't have to compete with wealthy sport people that are stuck on the GSD and therefore drive up the price. Smaller dog...less food cost (it adds up). Military...easier to carry a 50 lbs male Mal than have to carry a 85 lbs male GSD.

GSD is still very prevalent and will continue to be because there are many trainers that are very knowledgeable in training GSD and not Mal. They're not willing to make the change or risk failing because the dogs are different. Most large departments have trainers on their staff that have worked with GSDs their whole lives and don't see a reason to change. They know where they can get solid GSDs that will do the work they're asked to do. I'm not saying a Mal can do the work any better, but if a GSD can do the work that you need it to do, why change when you've been successful for decades?


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Mals have some advantages over the GSD in some areas, vice versa applies too. Mals are typically more compact and can fit in smaller places for drug search and the like. They tend to be a bit more agile due to size as well. Conjure up situations where a bigger, stronger dog suits the situation better and you have a GSD oriented job.

My worry is that due to the Osama take down and the typical media hype over the dog that helped(a Mal) the breed will get a bit too much attention. Double edged sword really, it's great that such a feisty and exciting breed is getting some limelight, but at the same time lots of folks are going to find out they are not capable of handling the little fireballs. My Mal was pretty laid back(K9 retiree) and she was still a handful if you borked up commands.I thought for sure I was going to lose fingers once when I grabbed her training Kong and forgot the Dutch word for "drop", we both grabbed it at the same time. I had forgotten two things really. I had not given her a down, so the Kong was "live" and I forgot the release command. I fortunately had my written cheat sheet on the table nearby and was able to scoot both of us over there.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Here are a few more favorites.
> 
> *We have already agreed that our shepherd dog is a service dog, and that he must only be bred as a service dog. He must therefore ... only be judged as a service dog. With service dogs, suitability ranks higher than beauty*
> 
> ...


Maybe he predicted it because he caused it? 

Truly, why require various elements passing, and then judge the structure and beauty as the sieger? Why not require a show rating of V or VA and then select the sieger by a combination of points earned by 1, having successful working progeny; 2, a summary of the dog's accomplishments; and 3, a competition on the day of the show between the various candidates? Wouldn't this then promote a working dog, and only a working dog which is supposedly what Von Stephanitz wanted? 

Too bad _he _was more concerned with the structure and beauty of the dogs he judged, and so long as they met the requirements and passed a protection test and endurance test, they could hold the top spot. But the top spot was selected, rated by the beauty of the candidates. Not the workability. This is how the man set it up. Hindsight is 20/20, but he was no fool. Not really. He predicted it, because he set it up that way, and was not willing to change it before he handed the whole works over and stepped down. 

Frankly, I am not fussed about how many times he turns over in his grave because of what the breed has become. He himself realized his herding dog would have to do more than sheep, or it would be history. So he developed training that proved their suitability to other types of work. Some of those jobs may have required a shift in character, so that some drives are bred for more than others. I think it is equally ridiculous that the breed retain the form that it originally had. And in his choices for Sieger, he caused the actual shape to change over the years. 

I think that the different lines of dogs were inevitable, just because of how much weight VA dogs and siegers are given. I think that Von Stephanitz wanted to avoid that. But he set that up that way. For a number of years they did not name siegers/siegerins, but I don't think that had the results they wanted either, and they went back to naming them. 

I think at this point if you were going to go back and name the top working dog of the year as the sieger, it would not go over at all. The big kennels are already set up in the show scene. But if it had begun that way, I think that you could have had a single line. Perhaps other breeds have learned from how GSDs have changed over the years, and have better systems for rating top dogs. However, it is also true that the mindset of the people who are showing the dogs, and the mindset of the people that work the dogs are often not one and the same, and never will be. Lots of breeds have different lines, show lines and field lines. Some of them barely resemble the other. Look at the English Setter. The show dogs are way bigger than the Llewlyn line. So different are they, that they are trying or have created a new breed for Llewlyn Setters. I am not sure how it is today, but years ago, if you wanted a dog for hunting, you would go with a Llewlyn.

We can quote him all we want, but we can say lots of things, it is what we do that matters. If I set a contest for some type of dish and said that I want it to be healthy first, but judged it totally on its palitablity, how many of the contestents are going to focus on how healthy the ingredients and processing was? What is the likelihood that the most healthy dish would get the blue ribbon?


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## Wodinaz (Dec 19, 2013)

brembo said:


> Mals have some advantages over the GSD in some areas, vice versa applies too. Mals are typically more compact and can fit in smaller places for drug search and the like. They tend to be a bit more agile due to size as well. Conjure up situations where a bigger, stronger dog suits the situation better and you have a GSD oriented job.
> 
> My worry is that due to the Osama take down and the typical media hype over the dog that helped(a Mal) the breed will get a bit too much attention. Double edged sword really, it's great that such a feisty and exciting breed is getting some limelight, but at the same time lots of folks are going to find out they are not capable of handling the little fireballs. My Mal was pretty laid back(K9 retiree) and she was still a handful if you borked up commands.I thought for sure I was going to lose fingers once when I grabbed her training Kong and forgot the Dutch word for "drop", we both grabbed it at the same time. I had forgotten two things really. I had not given her a down, so the Kong was "live" and I forgot the release command. I fortunately had my written cheat sheet on the table nearby and was able to scoot both of us over there.


This.

As an owner of both breeds, my 80 pound Malinois is hands down faster, more agile, and more driven then my 135 pound Shepherd. I can see just from my two why someone would pick one over the other.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

135# shepherd is not really something to compare to. Really. That is a huge shepherd. They aren't supposed to be that big, and no wonder it isn't all that agile. It sounds like a pretty super-sized mal too. But even an 85 pound shepherd _may _not be agile and quick. On the other hand, if you are out there with the dog every day, running, jumping, going over obstacles, swimming, riding a bike, that 85 pound shepherd could be 85 pounds of solid, lean muscle, and very agile. Still might not be as fast as a mal.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

A good mal is faster than any dog has business being.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

Baillif said:


> A good mal is faster than any dog has business being.


Yeah, they are housefly quick. I tossed a Kong down a hallway and my older Mal(she was 9 at the time) went after it. it bounced all sorts of ways as Kongs do and her ability to change direction and track it was sobering. Mals have built-in Parkour ability, their focus is scary too. Peppy was old and I wasn't on her training near as hard as when she was young and prime, but even in her dotage she was laser fast and nimble as all get out.

It's hard to describe just how quickly and totally a Mal commits to a task. It took me months of de-programming to get Pappy to understand that relaxing was okay. She would complete her commands in concurrence with the spoken command. It was like commands short-circuited anything else that might have been going on. She just did, and did it with the quickness. Fly-by-wire, no effort , she was ready at all times. Fun fun fun dog, just a bit much for someone looking for a companion and occasional working dog. I will never have a young Mal, I just don't have the necessary work to be done, I like dogs that can be couch taters when I'm bushed.


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## Wodinaz (Dec 19, 2013)

selzer said:


> 135# shepherd is not really something to compare to. Really. That is a huge shepherd. They aren't supposed to be that big, and no wonder it isn't all that agile. It sounds like a pretty super-sized mal too. But even an 85 pound shepherd _may _not be agile and quick. On the other hand, if you are out there with the dog every day, running, jumping, going over obstacles, swimming, riding a bike, that 85 pound shepherd could be 85 pounds of solid, lean muscle, and very agile. Still might not be as fast as a mal.


He is a big boy, no doubt. It is a bad comparison, but they are both very fit. We run up and down hills, over and under logs and stuff. Not so much swimming though, the Malinois can't swim  she sinks. They're both big happy healthy dogs. Of course she's more agile then him, cause of the size difference, and he is way more stronger than she is. And that's where I see how one breed can be better in certain situations.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

The police departments that I have been around dont have a breed standard. They go to a kennel that imports dogs and they test the available dogs until they find the best one based on a series of tests they run the dogs through. If that dog happens to be a mal, they take a mal. If its a GSD, they take the GSD. Mals, Dutchies, and GSD are all able to do the work so it isnt about finding the best of a breed it is about finding the best dog period. 
I see nothing wrong with departments pick breeds other than the GSD. The best dog I have ever worked with was a 50 lbs Dutchie that came from the California Dutch Shepherd rescue. That dog was the hardest dog I have ever seen, not to mention one of the most trainable. There is also something to be said for only having to throw a 50 lbs dog over a 7 foot fence instead of a 85lbs GSD.


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## benjdow (Dec 4, 2006)

brembo said:


> My worry is that due to the Osama take down and the typical media hype over the dog that helped(a Mal) the breed will get a bit too much attention. Double edged sword really, it's great that such a feisty and exciting breed is getting some limelight, but at the same time lots of folks are going to find out they are not capable of handling the little fireballs.


I have the same concerns and made a similar comment (below) a while back in this thread



Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> I really would like to see the MWD monuement and see the 341st training.thanks for sharing your pictures. Arnold looks very handsome.iknow three of the dogs ,GSD ,Lab,Dobie what breed is the 4th?





benjdow said:


> Thank you. The 4th dog is a Belgian Malinois, like the one in the videos I posted.
> 
> I have mixed feelings about the monument naming the breeds, particularly the Malinios. Obviously all the breeds deserve the respect, but I think the Mals would be better off without the attention. Unlike the GSD, Lab, and Dobie, the general population is largely unfamiliar with the Malinois breed...which IMO is a good thing. With the monument on the parade ground where the Air Force troops graduate, thousands of people visit it each week. Just like what had happened when the media publicized a Malinois used for the Bin Laden raid, you end up with an influx of people deciding they want a Malinois. The majority of these people don't realize that Mals usually do not make great pets (especially for the typical busy American family) and find out that they can't handle the dog...consequently they end up in shelters and/or are euthanized.


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## benjdow (Dec 4, 2006)

I have 2 GSD and 1 Dutch/Mal. 

One of the GSD's my girlfriend got from a backyard breeder before we met (she didn't know any better). He's the sweetest dog at home and very smart, easy to train, but a very sharp dog with terribly weak nerves.

My GSD was a MWD that was medically rejected for allergies as a green dog. He's on the smallest GSD's I've seen at 55lbs. He has incredible drive, lightning fast, and has nerves of steel. When I train at my friends house I put him in the kennels, out of all the different GSD's and resident Mals that have occupied those kennels, my GSD is the only who needs a roof. If there's a dog working he will promptly jump over the 7ft fence. The downside (IMO), he's a hard dog, stubborn, needs tough corrections, and requires an experienced handler...he works way better for my friend who has 30 years more experience than me.

The mal is a 10 month old puppy who I haven't had that long. He comes from KNPV lines (his dad was a KNPV champ). He's big, and dwarfs his littermates. He's 26" and will probably weigh around 80-90lbs. He has stellar prey drive, and seems to be handler sensitive. I don't think I'll ever need a pinch collar with him. He can be a handful at home. Put it this way, if I were to go out of town, I'd be perfectly comfortable leaving the GSD's with my parents...the mal I would not. 

Doing decoy work with both GSD's and Mals, from my experience most mals will hit you like a freight train, whereas only some GSD's will come in with the same level of intensity and commitment.

I'm friends with the evaluator who purchases the MWD's. He said they'd prefer all of their MWD's be mals, but the vendors simply can't accomadate a couple hundred mals at once. He personally prefers GSD's. I think a mal is typically easier to get through the 120 training course. A lot of their GSD's seem to need a little more time and a more experienced handler.


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