# Getting Started: Where to buy/what to buy equipment (Canada)



## spacenuts

Instead of getting another GSD, I have decided to invest in agility equipment instead 

My male GSD (almost 3 y/o) has done an agility foundations course. We did the walk around the cone thing, pause table, walking on that narrow balance beam thing and a bit of the tunnel. That's it. No weave poles, no jumps, no teeter-totter. 

What do you recommend to get started? 

Any recommendations for where to buy equipment? I live in Ontario, Canada.

Thank you.

P.S. This is just for mental and physical exercise. I won't be competing.


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## misslesleedavis1

Last time I was down in Scarborough, Gemini k9 had lots of things, also why not check out the pet expo this weekend? I am sure there will be tons of things their.
Oops just read it was agility equipment! 
I use a Facebook page for ontario dog swap, I will find it for you.


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## misslesleedavis1

Ontario dog stuff-buy/swap/sell
That's what it's called


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## martemchik

Google it and make things. Most things are made out of PVC and can easily be made. Dog walks, a frame, teeter, are really expensive. They can be made, but it will still cost quite a bit.

There are plans available for things like jumps, weaves on the Internet for free.


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## spacenuts

What is considered expensive? I can get a tunnel, teeter, weave poles and starter jumps for $375 total. I can't imagine making that myself and all my time for less than $375.

Also, I wouldn't be capable of building anything. Not my cup of tea.


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## martemchik

If love to see that teeter. The one most places use, which has proven to be safe and useable, is at minimum $400. A solid tunnel, is at minimum $200. Anything less, will move and tear apart the moment your dog learns to go through it at full speed. Probably tear apart before that if its that cheap.

Sometimes, price will definitely tell you what kind of quality you'll be getting.

I would be very cautious about using a teeter that came in a set for less than $400. My 80 lbs GSD, running at full speed, hits a teeter way too hard for me to trust something that cheap.

JJ Dog has high quality equipment for decent prices. Probably a bit higher than you'd find else where, but that's the type of equipment I'd trust.

Jumps will cost you about $30 of PVC if you build them yourself.


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## spacenuts

Here is is:

Muskoka Agility Equipment - Starter Package Special

It's a Teeter/Rocker which is valued at $90. It's not a full-size teeter as you can see.


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## TwoBigEars

That looks like a 4' tippy board. Good for getting a dog comfortable with movement if they have issues, but not the same as a teeter. That's a great price for a tunnel! Expensive jumps though, I know you don't want to make stuff yourself but if you did you could make jumps for half that price.

When you've got big dogs like GSDs, for most equipment it is usually worth shelling out the money for sturdier stuff.


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## martemchik

I can't really tell if that tunnel will hold up. Price wise, seems good, but also cheap compared to competition tunnels that are $200 easy.


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## TwoBigEars

Yeah the only obvious different I see is that it's an 8" pitch, and competition tunnels are usually 4" (some might still allow 6"). With just one dog I'd expect you'd get a lot of use out of it. Just try not to leave it sitting outside when you're not using it to help extend its life.


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## wildo

spacenuts- for a GSD, I would never use anything other than a 4" pitch tunnel. Simply too dangerous considering the weight of the dog. Spend the money on a real tunnel... You'll be glad you did.

Agility Standard Tunnel - NTI Global


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## TwoBigEars

I have a 6" pitch tunnel that works fine. Getting worn, but it's almost 10 years old.  8" is strange though. I've never seen an 8" pitch and I only see 4" and 6" listed in the tunnels section of their website so I wonder if it's a typo. The tunnel pictured in that package doesn't look like an 8" pitch.


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## TwoBigEars

Nevermind, the 8" tunnel is listed on the very top of the tunnels page. Don't know how I missed it! :crazy:


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## spacenuts

Thanks for the input everyone.

Your lingo is all Greek to me though. What is 8" pitch? And why does it matter? Why is 8" dangerous?

I found out the seller makes the jumps and teeter/rockers himself. Everything else comes from China (hence the price). 

He did tell me the tunnel shown in the starter package was of competition quality and that's what they use in competitions.


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## Nigel

Pitch is the spacing between the coils, not sure about the safety issue, I'd take a guess that the larger spacing between coils would allow the dog to step into and get hung up in the deeper convoluted pockets??


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## wildo

Nigel said:


> Pitch is the spacing between the coils, not sure about the safety issue, I'd take a guess that the larger spacing between coils would allow the dog to step into and get hung up in the deeper convoluted pockets??


The larger the pitch, the more the fabric can move between the coils. Especially with our large breed, it's a tremendous amount of force on the fabric and a large pitch can have a lot of give. When the dog hits the tunnel at speed, you don't want it moving out from under them. This will cause hesitation and reduced speed through the tunnel. Not to mention that the dog could misjudge the amount of give and hurt/sprain something.


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## Liesje

I would also invest in some training courses and instruction, even good DVDs and/or online courses can be super helpful. I've dabbled in agility for 8 years now (competed with two dogs but low level) and am now getting more serious with my young dog who is coming of age to start training harder. At home I have 5 jumps, a simple contact trainer for 2on2off (it's actually a piece of flyball equipment but I use it to train the 2o2o position), and now 6 "2x2" weaves and that's it. That's likely all I'll ever have at home, as I cannot fit jump drills with more than 4 jumps in my yard. When I had a much larger yard (and slower dog) I also had two cheaper tunnels, but not anymore. I'm lucky that I have two friends who have a lot more equipment and I can get some private lessons or use their yard.


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## spacenuts

I bought the 4" pitch tunnel. I also just started Agility Equipment classes last night. He did well, but his behaviour was too much by the end of the class. The trainer wouldn't even let him do the last activity and made me take him to the car. He was more interested in playing with the other dogs than working on the equipment. Sigh.


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## wildo

spacenuts said:


> I also *just started* Agility Equipment classes last night.





spacenuts said:


> The trainer wouldn't even let him do the last activity and *made me take him to the car.*


Good grief. Any option for a new trainer?


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## spacenuts

wildo said:


> Good grief. Any option for a new trainer?


She emailed me less than 48 hours after class and asked me not to come back (by saying that class was too much for my dog). Seriously????? Wow! There were only 4 of us in class! 

He wasn't that bad, except he wanted to chase/play with the other dogs during the last 7 minutes of class. That's when we got ejected. She wouldn't even let him do the last exercise, which was going through the tunnel. 2 dogs had already gone through the tunnel, the 3rd one was ready to go and then she told me to take my dog to the car. Why not have let the 3rd person go and then they all leave so my dog could go through the tunnel? It was the end of the class anyway!

By the trainer's 2nd email, I could tell what happened. One lady with her 6 month old Aussie Shepherd was scared of my dog. At first I wondered what her problem was (personality disorder?), then after the trainer emailed the 2nd time, I realized the lady was actually afraid of my dog. So we can't go back to class because someone is afraid of my big friendly giant. Unbelievable.

Anyhow, the trainer is swapping 6 group lessons for 3 privates. I accepted.


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## Liesje

Where are you training? Has the person competed in agility and trained other people that compete? If you want to compete yourself, I would find someone who has a good track record. I've trained agility with 4 different people but only 2 of the 4 I would (and do) go back to because they have a better grasp on training dogs in drive and sports in general, not just putting the beginner dogs on equipment. At the place I train now, there is a wall that is about 3.5' high and solid, so if my dog can't handle watching the other dogs work, I stand behind this wall so I can watch and he can't see. We work on a down-stay. If it's really too much for him, I keep him in my van and take him out for his turns (this is how it is done for other sports - flyball, Schutzhund, etc), but if I can keep his focus I keep him ringside and use the time to work on keeping his focus on me (tugging, playing with our toys) or practicing a quiet down-stay (rewarding with food every 2-5 seconds or so).


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## MaggieRoseLee

I'm with Liesje, NOT all trainers are the same, many are idiots  . And we dog owners (not us, but OTHER dog owners  ) can think they know alot (my dog is so smart they can do all agility equipment perfectly and safely after a month of classes) when they have just really messed up any 'real' agility training for the future.

Best trainers in agility also go to dog shows PLUS have classes/training/LEARNING that they go to themselves to always up their skills. It's from agility trials that we see new courses/challenges and continuosly push ourselves to learn and improve our handling.

And dog HANDLING around a course, fun and fast (safely) is really what dog 'agility' is all about.


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## Liesje

Yep I spent this weekend running both my dogs through jump sequences with no bars up. My younger dog is just getting to the point where he has some jumping technique and we are working on 2, 3, 4 jump sequences, so sometimes I remove all the bars and just working on handling. I am getting a feel for how he naturally runs, and he is learning how to read my cues and body language.


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## spacenuts

Liesje said:


> At the place I train now, there is a wall that is about 3.5' high and solid, so if my dog can't handle watching the other dogs work, I stand behind this wall so I can watch and he can't see. We work on a down-stay. If it's really too much for him, I keep him in my van and take him out for his turns (this is how it is done for other sports - flyball, Schutzhund, etc)


Love this. I don't know why I couldn't just do this. Sigh.

Anyhow, went to my private agility class last night - she wouldn't let us do any equipment because she said he needs to be more obedient. Lame. Lame because obviously if he's the only one there he's going to behave better (no distractions!). This trainer really has her own agenda and is almost looking for perfection.

She told me my dog was making the other dogs very uncomfortable and everytime he barked, all you saw was his big GSD teeth. UGH! Then she needs to make a rule that she won't train large breed dogs. That's just ridiculous. I can't even believe a dog trainer actually said that to her client.

BTW, I'm 99.9% sure she competes. And I'm positive she does still take training courses.

P.S. Thanks for the feedback - I really appreciate it.


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## Liesje

There's a difference between obedience and engagement. My young dog who I am now fairly seriously training in agility has never taken an obedience class. He knows sit, down, shake, and speak but that's it. He does have a good "start line stay" though (he doesn't sit or down, I just set him in front of the first obstacle and tell him to "wait" and he's really good with it). All of his skills are sports related. He doesn't know heel or do formal retrieves or "come" and sit perfectly square in front of me. However, he is very engaged with me. We can do agility, disc, etc off leash with other dogs around (as long as they aren't directly running into our path), but I wouldn't call this "obedience". Your dog *does* need to be able to focus on the task at hand and be engaged with you in order to succeed in agility and other sports, but this is something that almost all dogs have to work at. Very few dogs are born having zero interest in what the other dogs and people are doing. I would work really hard on recalls, not formal recalls, but calling your dogs name and having him run to you to tug, get a ball or treat, play a game, etc. Also build on whatever motivates him....food, tugging, getting a certain toy.

Last night I had agility class and in one hour, my dog only got the chance to run three short sequences (and he ran each one only one time). His total time working was less than 30 seconds. The rest of the time I used to reward him keeping his focus on me and ignoring the other dogs while they ran. He's doing really well and we discussed moving up to a more advanced handling class. Even though my dog is young and inexperienced, what he needs is more course time running longer and more technical courses and I need to just put him "away" (in the van) so I am free to watch the other handlers and learn from them. He no longer needs the class environment because he's now under control off leash in the same space as the other dogs running.


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## spacenuts

Liesje - sounds like you have a really awesome dog on your hands! 

I agree - obedience and engagement are different. This trainer that I'm going to obviously doesn't see that. Oh well, lesson learned. Too bad it was an expensive one.


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## martemchik

You seem to really not like her...and I'm not sure why.

First...you admitted that you won't be competing. When you're not going to be competing, you're going to go to the back of the class. The instructor will always focus on the people that want to advance, want to learn, want to compete. It's just simple human psychology, why spend time on someone who is clearly not that interested? On top of that, the people that want to advance tend to work at home, the others don't. And its very easy to see who only trains the day of the class.

Second...most people that are trainers are still going to training classes and learning more. I have no idea why you'd think that's a bad thing. It means your instructor wants to learn and doesn't believe she's the best and doesn't need any help herself. All dog sports are hard to do by yourself, you need a spotter to tell you where you're making mistakes and where your dog is making mistakes.

Third...you really shouldn't let your dog bark. If it's barking, its doing it at another dog. Most people won't be comfortable with that. I took agility classes at an all GSD club, and we didn't allow other dogs anywhere near the course when another dog was running. It's not safe, and it also burns out the dog waiting. No need for that.

Fourth...her own agenda? Yes, that's what you pay a trainer for. To push you and to make your dog good. She wants you to work at her standard...nothing wrong with that. You'd be a lot more angry if it were the other way around and you wanted perfection and she was telling you that it's fine the way it is. Most trainers won't do that. They want to train to a high level because that shows their ability. A teacher shouldn't be happy with their students being C students, they should strive for all As.


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## Liesje

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, just say that you don't have to take several obedience classes before starting agility, but it IS hard work and you do need to really work at the engagement. Save for a few crazy Border Collies, dogs don't naturally focus on doing obstacles in a sequence or think this is all that fun until we make it about the engagement and use what motivates them. Dogs don't have to be perfectly well behaved and calm, but must be focused on their owners and under control. 

As to competing vs. for fun, the places I've trained have different classes. They use different names and labels, but there's always been beginner "for fun" classes where the focus is on getting dogs doing a few jumps and some contact obstacles set lower so the owners can run a "course" (usually a circle) at the end of the class, while the beginner classes for those who intend to compete focus as much if not more on handling skills and working the dogs in drive.


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## wildo

spacenuts said:


> Anyhow, went to my private agility class last night - she wouldn't let us do any equipment because she said he needs to be more obedient. Lame.


What's lame is that the trainer's excuse for not letting you on the equipment is "obedience." As a beginner dog, your dog has no business on the equipment in the first place. What's lame is that she couldn't just explain why you have no business on the equipment.... 

I've been there. In my VERY FIRST class, my very first question to the instructor is when we'd get on the equipment... I know the desire. But try to quell it. The equipment is vital, sure, but such a small part of agility in reality. More important is the connection with the dog- the engagement. Without this, it doesn't mean a thing if your dog can do a perfect 2o2o a-frame. It doesn't matter if your dog has a 1.5 sec running dogwalk. You have to be able to _direct_ your dog to those things. 

Focus on the foundations. They are far, far, far more important than the best teeter performance ever.


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## wildo

BTW- the reason your dog has no business on the equipment is because each piece of equipment represents a required behavior chain, of which your dog doesn't know. Equipment training is braking that chain down into trainable aspects and then back chaining (usually) those individual aspects into an understandable sequence of performances.


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## spacenuts

martemchik said:


> First...you admitted that you won't be competing. When you're not going to be competing, you're going to go to the back of the class. The instructor will always focus on the people that want to advance, want to learn, want to compete. It's just simple human psychology, why spend time on someone who is clearly not that interested?


That's cute. So if there are 2 medical students in class, one wants to be a Family Doctor and the other wants to be a Surgeon, then I guess the student that just wants to be the Family Doctor should just drop out and not finish the rest of his studies so the Professor can get what he wants and focus on the Surgeon because that's more prestigious than a Family Doctor.

I'm paying the exact same amount as everyone else in the class - again, there were only 4 of us. I have no idea what their intentions were, but I think it's safe to say we were all there to learn agility equipment with our dogs. 



martemchik said:


> Second...most people that are trainers are still going to training classes and learning more. I have no idea why you'd think that's a bad thing.


No idea what made you think I thought that was bad......

Obviously a trainer that competes and is always learning is NOT a fly-by-night trainer.



martemchik said:


> Fourth...her own agenda? Yes, that's what you pay a trainer for.


If you say so. But I really didn't appreciate the trainer telling me I could put my dog in the freezer as an option. That is so not happening. I just want to learn how to use the equipment properly and she's coming up with all these excuses and then has the audacity to suggest euthanizing my pet. Sheesh.


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## martemchik

Did you really compare a $200 agility class to $200,000 med school?

It's no ones fault you didn't vet the trainer. End of the day, nothing here any of us can do to get you your money back or change the way she runs her class. If you came on here to get support and have a bash fest about some random agility trainer that no one knows and no one else has trained under, you're not going to get it.

Adding facts after the fact about how she insinuated you should put your dog down doesn't do anything for me either. Only adds to the fact that I still think you're over reacting and are making up stories about what she's told you. I've never met a dog person, especially a trainer, that would make a comment like that to one of their clients. It's in her better interest that you keep your dog alive and keep coming back, not just get rid of it.

I would never pay money to a dog trainer before watching them train a variety of dogs, too late for you now. Pull your dog from the class and try to find a different trainer.


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## spacenuts

martemchik said:


> If you came on here to get support and have a bash fest about some random agility trainer that no one knows and no one else has trained under, you're not going to get it.


Again, you are totally reading into my posts. I'm not having a "bash fest" about this trainer. I'm simply re-iterating what occurred (and some of my feelings).



martemchik said:


> Adding facts after the fact about how she insinuated you should put your dog down doesn't do anything for me either. Only adds to the fact that I still think you're over reacting and are making up stories about what she's told you. I've never met a dog person, especially a trainer, that would make a comment like that to one of their clients. It's in her better interest that you keep your dog alive and keep coming back, not just get rid of it.


Would you like a play by play and a full script of everything that happened and was said? I didn't even think that was important to mention until you came along and replied. I'm really surprised that you would actually accuse me of making something up having never met me and you know nothing about me.

I appreciate everyone else's replies. I am learning there is much more to agility than meets the eye.


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## Liesje

If you want to do agility with a GSD I suggest watching some trials, watch for people and dogs YOU like, then ask who those people are and if/where THEY train. Agility folk will tell you the sport is geared towards ALL dogs and people of all levels, which is true, but at the same time every person is still going to have a bias (whether intentional or not) toward or against certain breeds or styles of temperament. My first agility GSD was a very calm, reserved dog that was not very fast on the course, but a perfectionist. We trained with someone who trained and competed much the same way - larger dogs that were (IMO) slow, but correct, and using food for the reward. In the end, I didn't like this much because our dogs needed so much "cheerleading" to keep them motivated, but this was more a function of the dog's temperament (which could not be changed). When I got my second GSD, he had much, much more drive and energy and was a fearless, confident dog. I switched to a trainer that trains Dobermans, is much more competitive, and understands training large working breeds with higher drive and using toys for motivation and control. Now I'm on my third GSD training for agility (the first I got as an adult and she is no longer living, the second is starting to peak from his prime but we do other sports than agility), and I have two new people I've been training with. I've seen them train and compete with multiple dogs and like the style. We don't always agree 100%, but we agree on the fundamentals of how we train the foundation. I go to trials and watch these folks compete and I go to drop-in classes that are too advanced for my dog just to watch them practice.



spacenuts said:


> I appreciate everyone else's replies. I am learning there is much more to agility than meets the eye.


Yes, it is what you make of it, but I think the biggest thing (and what Willy is getting at) is that agility is not about learning the equipment. It's about YOU learning the handling, you and your dog learning to read each other, and learning how to keep your dog motivated. Being in a rush to be working the obstacles can cause a lot of problems later on. Also it's definitely a sport where there are huge benefits to doing a lot of homework, but that doesn't have to mean running out and buying or building a full course. At home I have 6 weaves which I just bought from Willy, and 4 jumps. This is PLENTY to keep my dogs active and to work on drills and technique. I don't have space for any contact obstacles or tunnels.


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## wildo

Yeah, even just one wing jump can get you FAR. The equipment is fun no question, but ask pretty much any big name agility handler- it's about the connection. It's about engagement. It's about moving in unison, being in tune with your teammate while running that course. This stuff happens through foundational skills. Crossing, flat work, focus, looking to you for direction, obstacle focus, handler focus, acceleration, decel, sending, lateral work, distance work.... I can go on and on.

The obstacles are the "sexy stuff" to the novice; the fluid, lightening fast mental connection- the engagement- is the sexy stuff to the master level player.


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## wildo

I can't think of a better example of this than Daisy Peel's current BC pup, Frodo. No offense to Daisy, but go watch some YouTube videos of Daisy and Frodo from even 6 months ago. They really don't look that good; and by Daisy's admission, they were struggling. They hadn't become a team yet. But watch their most recent videos now from Brazil Championship... Wow. They've clicked. They have evolved into a working TEAM now. They are communicating on course and moving fluidly. It's a major improvement from where they were last year.

The point is, I guarentee you that Daisy was not focusing on the equipment. She focused on the relationship building. The foundational teamwork oriented goals. This sort of a focus will not leave you disappointed.


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## wildo

I wasn't at a computer earlier. Here's an example of what I was talking about.

From 01/2014, Frodo is in Excellent here, so he knows the obstacles. What's interesting is to watch the handling. Remember- Daisy is a multi-time World Team member: four times at the FCI World Championships, three times at the European Open Championships, twice at Crufts, twice at the World Agility Open, and twice at the Americas and Caribbean. With that in mind, watch the handling. Watch the dog's reaction to the handling:






Just a bit more than a year later- the dog has the SAME obstacle understanding, but what's different here? The difference is confidence, connection, and teamsmanship. This is a very, very different dog.






So don't stress so much about the obstacles; they'll be learned quickly and easily. What is not quick and easy is building up that engagement desire- building up that connection. THAT takes work! THAT is why the obstacles are not important right now. That can be taught, worked, grown with a single jump in your backyard.


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## spacenuts

"Like". (I wish there was a Like button for each forum post).

Thanks. Those videos were great to watch. I see what you all mean.


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## WesS

spacenuts said:


> That's cute. So if there are 2 medical students in class, one wants to be a Family Doctor and the other wants to be a Surgeon, then I guess the student that just wants to be the Family Doctor should just drop out and not finish the rest of his studies so the Professor can get what he wants and focus on the Surgeon because that's more prestigious than a Family Doctor.
> 
> I'm paying the exact same amount as everyone else in the class - again, there were only 4 of us. I have no idea what their intentions were, but I think it's safe to say we were all there to learn agility equipment with our dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> No idea what made you think I thought that was bad......
> 
> Obviously a trainer that competes and is always learning is NOT a fly-by-night trainer.
> 
> 
> 
> If you say so. But I really didn't appreciate the trainer telling me I could put my dog in the freezer as an option. That is so not happening. I just want to learn how to use the equipment properly and she's coming up with all these excuses and then has the audacity to suggest euthanizing my pet. Sheesh.


Makes perfect sense. Ignore the trolls here. I would be upset too if I paid for a service and got promised training to be second fiddle to a wannabe competitor. Both giving your time and your money. If they are 'serious' competitors why are they even in the same class?
And euthanizing your pet? Omg... Why? Sounds deplorable.


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## TwoBigEars

Seriously. As a trainer, if you're accepting students of all interests, you shouldn't treat someone like second-tier just because they don't want to compete. If you're going to treat the "just for fun" people differently, either don't accept them in your classes or have separate classes for them. In my classes, all the students are treated the same regardless of whether they are or want to compete. They're all paying me the same. My classes are taught for competition but I don't require actually competing.

And how many people do you know currently competing in agility who started out saying "I just want to do it for fun" and now here they are in the ring? A rather large majority of current competitors, I'd wager. It's how I started.

Regarding OP's dog's behavior in class, it's hard for me to make any comments on it without seeing it in person.


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## Liesje

"You shouldn't treat someone like second-tier just because they don't want to compete." I totally agree, however I see/hear this used as an *excuse* a lot of the time when someone doesn't want to do the homework or doesn't want to acknowledge the fact that their dog's training and behavior may not meet the minimum pre-reqs of the class. NOT saying that is the case here, but this has been my actual experience in many classes (not just agility). I mean, I do it myself (just not in a class environment). Just this past weekend Willy was showing me how to throw a disc correctly so it would go father and be more accurate and I said something to the effect of, "I don't really care if I throw bad because we just play disc for exercise, I don't want to compete...."


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## TwoBigEars

I do agree with that. I know I'll put more help and effort into a student who really wants to try and will put the time in on their homework because it's going to pay off for both of us. I just don't think someone should automatically be treated differently just because they don't want to compete, and if the instructor is going to treat them differently they need to be more clear about that or only accept the kind of students they want to work with. I have a number of students who don't currently want to compete that work harder to improve and learn more than some students who are competing...


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## wildo

Liesje said:


> Just this past weekend Willy was showing me how to throw a disc correctly so it would go father and be more accurate and I said something to the effect of, "I don't really care if I throw bad because we just play disc for exercise, I don't want to compete...."


Yeah seriously- what kind of crappy excuse is that!?


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