# 5 months old GSD puppy: Developing Rickets



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi All,

I have a GSD puppy, exactly 5 months old.

She is very active and fun-loving. But, 4 days back we noticed she is showing signs of discomfort while walking. Also, if she is sitting in this position (picture attached), she is not able to getup smoothly.

We rushed to the VET the next day. As per the VET, she is developing RICKETS. Suggested the below treatment:
1) Glycoflex - medicine for joint treatment
2) Arachitol - injection

I have searched in the internet and came to know Rickets happen due to deficiency of Vitamin D, Calcium & Phosporus. 
And her everyday meal is:
1). Cornflakes and cerelac 
2). Chicken and Rice 
3). 1 boiled egg
4). Bones (Calcium tablet)

I don't see the scope of any vitamins or minerals deficiency.
Also if she is standing or walking her HOCKS are almost touching eachother.

So, I am not convinced if it is actually RICKETS or some other problem.
I have attached 2 vdos. Can you please take a look.
https://youtu.be/OOUvEARkwFE
https://youtu.be/fOG2TFGue9g

PS:
1). The VET is quite has experience in handling GSDs and other big dogs. 
2). I am not sure if she is from show-line or working-line breed.


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi All,

We have adopted her when she was 1.5 months old.


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

Please advise, we are a bit worried.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm no expert, but that does not look like a balanced diet at all. Dogs need meat, not cornflakes and rice. If you want to home cook for your pup, perhaps pick up a book on the subject (Dr. Karen Becker and Monica Segal both have good books to look into).

In the meantime, please get your pup on either a commercial raw food (The Honest Kitchen, Bravo, Primal, Stella and Chewy's) or a decent kibble (Fromm, Orijen, Earthborn Holistic, Acana). Hopefully that will help correct whatever the problem is. I can't see any pictures, so I have no idea if it looks like Rickets.

Good luck to you.


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

We are feeding her 300 grams of chicken everyday.
The diet mentioned in the initial post is suggested by the VET.

If you are still not able to see the pics and the videos, please share your email-id. I will send an email. (if its OK with you)


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What country do you live in? I think you have too much grain in her diet right now.


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

I am from India.
You could be right. The VET also suggested the same. We have already reduced quantity of rice.


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

But I still have the same question. 
Is she really developing RICKETS.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Ahh, now the picture is there.

Even if that was the diet recommended by your vet, I still don't think it's balanced. When we got our first dog, our vet recommended we feed Royal Canin, to which I kindly replied "no". Some vets are just not that well-versed in nutrition. I'm sure your vet means well, but seriously, cornflakes should not be a dietary staple for a dog!

Get your hands on a good book about canine nutrition. It's not that difficult to feed a balanced raw or homecooked diet, if that's the route you wish to go. But please read up on the proper way to do it. Course correct now before irreversible damage is done!

If home cooking or raw isn't in the cards, please, PLEASE at least put your pup on a balanced kibble.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

I'm not a vet, and it's difficult to tell what your dog's legs look like from the picture you posted. If you don't think it's Rickets, can you go to a different vet for a second opinion?


----------



## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Welcome Indra09! Cute pup!

If you add your location to your profile it will be helpful. Most but certainly not all of the members on this forum are in the US or Canada and likely to recommend foods and such not available to you locally not knowing your location.

I'm not a vet and I don't no what Rickets looks like in dogs. But the diet you listed doesn't seemed balanced. To much grain/rice filler and no organ meat. Your pup needs a balance of calcium and phosphorus but not too much calcium. Too much calcium can actually cause more harm then good in a growing pup. How much calcium are you feeding with the tabs?

There are others on the forum who are well versed in GSD nutrition and hopefully will chime in soon. Be patient with the time zone difference. 

Again welcome


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

I was searching in Internet for similar cases, and found the attached pic showing different faulty hocks.

I am not sure regarding the authenticity of this picture, but she does have the same cow-hock like posture. Her hocks almost touch each other while standing and walking.

Please suggest.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Cow hocks on a puppy are not that uncommon. I don't get the rickets comment and we have seen that the state of Veterinary medicine in India seems to not be as advanced as it is here in the states based on several other posters from there. Strange, given the fact that so many of our best doctors and scientists come from India. Same thing with the feeding advice ( you may want to look for other threads mentioning India using the search feature as they also mention good foods over there)

I raised my puppy on a kibble but there are many experienced raw feeders here who who recommend raw meat and bones and can help you with a diet. Puppies can balance the minerals from actual bones better than the chemical powders (and usually excess calcium is more of a problem than too little) 

She looks adorable and more like a showline puppy than a working line.

Do you have x-rays? I am NO expert and hope some of the folks more experienced here may play in. Pups can be awkward in their motion until they mature. She looks like a happy, healthy little thing to me. I am a bit concerned about range of motion on the back but don't have enough experience to evaluate that.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I see so many posts from people in India with puppies that are having structural issues and it always seems to lead to diet and nutritional deficiencies. Please find a large breed puppy food. I think you have Royal Canine available to you?


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

There a 2009 article in the Am. Vet. Med. Assoc. Journal about a pup that developed rickets from an imbalanced, incomplete raw diet:
Abstract


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rickets is a dietary issue, and what you have listed there is not a good diet for dogs. I cannot be sure what 300grams of chicken is. If a kg is 2.2 pounds. .3 kg is about 1/2 to 2/3 of a pound of chicken a day? 

A 5 month old puppy can easily eat 2 chicken leg quarters in a day about 2 pounds. Because I am not a nutritionist, I will only give raw chicken to the dog and skip a meal now and then. I go with a balanced diet designed for dogs.

Yes, cornflakes and rice can be causing your dog to have issues. Royal Canine would be MUCH better if you can get that. Get the dog onto the correct portion for his age/size, and split that into 3-4 meals. Then add an egg a day, and a piece of cheese, a little yogurt every day, because your pup needs a little help. 

If you are cooking the chicken, then a lot of the nutrients the dog would be getting out of the amount you are giving will be gone. Please use dog food. Buy the best dog food that you can find or ship in.

Dump the calcium tablet. Large breed puppies do have trouble when the calcium/phosphorous ratio is out of balance. Serious structural issues. So, please do not give the calcium tablet. The egg, cheese, tablespoon of yogurt will provide a little calcium for your pup, but at least it is animal-based. Raw, meaty bones of course are best as the calcium/phosphorous ratio will be fine. Cooked or smoked bones are not good.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I did have a look at your videos and what I see is a very happy , outgoing , young pup from show lines , with a poor to marginal diet , with lack of muscle tone , ligament looseness and conformational cow hocks.
Rickets would be seen in deformation , bowing of the fore limbs - and your dog seems seems to be fine in the front.
The rear ? I looked at the videos over and over trying to pin point what may be going on. She sits very froggy , very loose . In the video I do see a slight drag on the dogs left rear leg . Look at the near end of the video where she is playing with the chewy toy. In the romp I see again the left side not having the same power or energy.

cornflakes for a dog? I wouldn't feed them to a goat. But I would feed goat to a dog ! Improve the diet . Low calorie , but not laden with grain nor filler -- optimized nutrient dense .

Can you do another video of her walking showing her left side to the viewer?

Rickets is easily addressed by adding fatty fish, liver , fatty meat .


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi All,

Thanks for your replies.

I clearly understand the diet is not proper.

Can you please suggest names of food or products for her, so that we can change her diet.

Also, we have stopped giving her the Calcium tablet. We are also giving her below medicines (prescribed by our VET):
1) Zymopet ==> carminative drops
2) Glycoflex ==> for joint support
3) Fur+ ==> for healthy skin and coat
4) Omega+ ==> for dry & dull coat

I have also uploaded the below 2 videos as per your request:
https://youtu.be/Tl2bPjUt1XM
https://youtu.be/Ervdv255T0Q

Can you please take a look and guide me on her diet.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

lovely house , with lovely clean and shiny hard and slippery polished stone (marble?) floors , which is a problem . No traction . Dog slips. In first video at very end you can see the dog slide into a stop .
In both videos you can see weight is off the left rear limb.
Put a runner of carpeting down . Walk the dog on soft earth or sand . Even your courtyard is hard surface. 

Not bad . I have seen much worse as far as cow hock but you don't want to create problems . You are still at the age where you can change things.

Food? Good protein which builds muscle . You don't have this in your current diet . 

products recommended by your vet --
boy was it an effort to find the ingredients to 
the Zymopet - but here they are
Zymopet Alpha -amylase 50mg + Papain 6mg + Cinnamon oil 0.2mg + Cardamom oil 0.4mg + Caraway oil 0.4mg + Dill oil 0.05ml + Fennel oil 0.0035ml/ 5ml 

this is an anti flatulent (carminative) which in coarser way to say it anti fart .
But you have all of these in your daily cookery, and your dog wouldn't be having difficult digesting, fermenting , producing gas , if there were not so much grain in the diet .
When you say corn flakes are you saying this as an American would understand "corn" as maize , or corn as a European would use that word which is actually wheat / wheat berries ? Either way , not part of a good dog's diet.

You have , anise , coriander , cumin, fennel, fenugreek, ginger, dill and you have true cinnamon (Ceylon) cinnamon verum, and cardamom . Peppermint maybe not so available to you . These are also anti spasmodic and stimulate fat digesting bile . 
Yogurt , cultured milk , kefir -- that would give you enzymes and probiotics . 

Vitamin C ! (whole food sourced) good for ligaments and immune health you have in super food AMLA . Do you have camu camu or acerola fruit or in powder form ? Very absorbable source of vitamin C's (C8) .

that's a start (goodnight)


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You should have a dog food called Royal Canine available to you. Put her on that. It's a whole diet so no supplements needed.

Then if you wish, you can figure out a balanced homemade diet to switch her too.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Royal Canin is a "whole diet" but is low quality grain and by product based . Portion of review "Ingredients: *Brewers rice*, brown rice, *chicken by-product meal*, chicken fat, *wheat gluten*, *corn gluten meal*, *corn*, natural flavors, *powdered cellulose*, *dried plain beet pulp*, fish oil, grain distillers dried yeast, *vegetable oil"*

full review Royal Canin Breed-Specific Adult Dog Food | Review and Rating

this dog needs to get off grains.

supplemental digestive enzymes and essential fatty acids still needed as they do not survive manufacture .


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Royal Canin is a "whole diet" but is low quality grain and by product based . Portion of review "Ingredients: *Brewers rice*, brown rice, *chicken by-product meal*, chicken fat, *wheat gluten*, *corn gluten meal*, *corn*, natural flavors, *powdered cellulose*, *dried plain beet pulp*, fish oil, grain distillers dried yeast, *vegetable oil"*
> 
> full review Royal Canin Breed-Specific Adult Dog Food | Review and Rating
> 
> this dog needs to get off grains.


.

I see you completely disregarded the second line of my post.

That may be Royal Canin is crap but at this point it's certainly better than what the puppy is being fed right now! At least the kibble has the proper nutrients, vitamins and minerals.

So as I said....put her on a whole diet kibble which is available in India and THEN figure out a balanced homemade diet or a better kibble.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no , as a matter of fact I did not miss anything in your post. 

Even as an interim , which I knew you intended Royal Canin to be, there just has to be a better option.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

not to leave anyone in a lurch , think of food stuff readily available to your cuisine , that you can share with your dog .

yellow split lentils (dhuli?) , eggs, paneer or fresh cheese , drained yogurt , fatty fish , rely on your butcher for liver, chicken necks, chicken wings, goat innards such as heart and tongue . 
The carminative herbs you already have in the garam masala . Turmeric is an excellent anti inflammatory.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

If not mentioned earlier, you may want to make sure your pup is also getting exercise/fun and play on grass and other surfaces rather than just the pavers in the video? Good exercise also helps develop normal growth of the bones/muscles but for the first year we need to be careful what they are running on. 

Doesn't seem to be in pain and looks happy.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are up to providing a home-made diet, I would follow Carmen's advice on what to feed the puppy. Personally, I think you should go ahead and get the dog on the best dog food you can find in your country. Have it delivered if necessary. 

If you want, list a few that are available, and we can help go through the ingredients to find what looks to be best. 

Not everyone wants to cook for their dog or offer them a raw diet. That's ok. They do have dog foods available, and even royal canine would be better than what your vet suggested. That doesn't mean it is the best you can get. As for grain-free, I am not convinced it is always the best way to go. A lot of times food says grain free, but then it is loaded down with potatoes and peas. Dogs don't need those either. Dogs can eat them though, just like they can eat rice, and corn, and all kinds of things they really aren't getting much nutrients from. Fillers.


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

Thanks for your replies.

I have started giving her AMLA fruit, as suggested by Carmen. I am giving her 1 slice of AMLA everyday. And Home-cooked Goat Liver.

Also Royal Canin is available. Please advise if I can switch to below dog food:
https://www.royalcanin.com/products...-shepherd-puppy-dry-dog-food-30-lb-bag/418003


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

indra09_roy said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for your replies.
> 
> ...


Any other choices? 

I think this is better than the diet that you have been feeding, but Carmen is right. If you look at the ingredients prior to the foods first fat ingredient, that will be the majority of what you are putting into your dog, in order of volume. 

Ingredients: Brewer's rice, Chicken by-product meal, brown rice, oat groats, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten, *chicken fat*, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, sodium silico aluminate, vegetable oil, pea fiber, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride. 

So, the ingredient that has the most weight in the food is Brewer's rice, which is a cheap filler that has little or no nutritional value. 

Chicken by-product meal is at least animal-based and after the water is baked out of it. It is not necessarily the parts of the chicken that humans eat. It could be bone, beak, feet, entrails, but at least stuff that dogs would probably eat. 

But hang on, the next ingredient is another rice. Brown rice has more nutrients than white rice, but if you add its volume to the oat groats, it is possible that the weight of those items together are more than the weight if the chicken by-product meal. And we have no idea whether the Brewer's rice is 90% to 5% chicken by products. or 30% to 28%. The brown rice could be 2% or 30% so long as it is less than the amount of chicken by product meal. So if the chicken is 15% and the brown rice is 14% and the oat groats is 13%, you can see that you can easily have way more grain than meat. Add to that that the Brewers rice is definitely more than the chicken, and we can have 2/3 grain to 1/3 or less meat. 

We could look at the protein content of the food, but stuff like corn gluten meal is in there partly to bind the food, but also to spike the protein levels. And it isn't animal protein. 

Beyond the fat, which at least is not generic, we have natural flavors. Why? If there is meat in the food and the meat and fat is not rancid, why do we have to add flavor to it. Dogs like meat. If the food smells like meat the dog won't have a problem with eating it. Evenso, most dog foods tend to put this in there.

Beet pulp can help with the consistency of the poop. Without it, on this food, the company pretty much expects dogs to have loose or mushy poop. 

If you could give us a few choices we might be able to help you find a better food. Royal Canine is definitely over-priced for what they put in the bag. 
Ingredients 
Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, brown rice, oat groats, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten, chicken fat, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, sodium silico aluminate, vegetable oil, pea fiber, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, 

- See more at: https://www.royalcanin.com/products...og-food-30-lb-bag/418003#sthash.EBMnvMRW.dpuf
Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, brown rice, oat groats, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten, chicken fat, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, fish oil, sodium silico aluminate, vegetable oil, pea fiber, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride - See more at: https://www.royalcanin.com/products...og-food-30-lb-bag/418003#sthash.EBMnvMRW.dpuf


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.

Can you please suggest few other choices of dog food. I will try to find them here or order online.

Also, she has motion-sickness. Everytime she travels in car, she will vomit. But she is not afraid of car and seems to enjoy the ride. Can please suggest something on this matter.


----------



## indra09_roy (Dec 17, 2015)

Hi,

I was searching in internet and came across below 2 dog foods:
1). https://www.drools.in/products/focus-puppy
2). http://www.dogkart.in/premium-dog-f...d-hundchen-flocken-puppy-186815-kg-solid-gold

Please suggest if I can switch to any of them


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Either of those look excellent. Protein seems a little high and fat a little low, for large-breed puppies. I would get a bag and start it. The second would be my first choice as the lamb is followed by lamb-meal. And then another meat source. The first food has meat first and lists a minimum content of meat, so that seems good as well.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I too prefer the Solid Gold meal.


----------



## wingdo (Dec 9, 2011)

Indra,

Looking at the videos you attached, I don't see what I would think of as rickets, but the bunny hop while running can be signs of hip issues and if you can afford it, they should be x-ray'd. 

The supplements your vet is putting your dog on are really all to make up for a poor diet. A high quality, preferably grain free diet can do wonders for most dogs. Rice, corn and the like are just not part of a dog's natural diet and they do not have the proper digestive enzymes to break these grains down to get good nutrition from them.

A meat first diet with plenty of protein is a good start. If you add eggs, make sure you cook them first. 

Best of luck.


----------



## Annabellam (Nov 2, 2015)

Hey. Rickets is caused by a deficiency in vitamin D, or inefficient reactions in the body to the vitamin.This could be caused by the malfunction of parathyroid glands. Basically what the pup needs is enough of vitamin D through exposure to sunlight and from other sources. I think vitamin supplements would help.


----------



## shedogs (Feb 24, 2016)

*I have never had a dog with rickets Thanks for bringing this topic for discussion.*

What is your dogs current condition?diagnoses?


----------

