# Co-owning a male



## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

I've come into a situation where I am able to co-own a male. I trust the breeder, and she only wants to use his as a stud dog. If he grows up to not be what she wants to breed, she would relinquish all ownership and I am free to do what I want with this. The dog would be free (obviously dogs are not remotely free while training, but free as in no initial cost for the dog himself) and I would train and title. 

The reason I feel this would be a good idea for me personally, is because I plan to start breeding. She has agreed to be my mentor, and this will not be for a few years out (that I will breed on my own). So not only would I co-op the dog with her, I will be with her quite often throughout everything involving breeding to learn more.

Are there any reasons that I should not do this? We would of course have everything written down in a formal agreement, no verbal contracts just in case. I feel like co-ownership is a very small price to pay for the amount of knowledge I will be gaining in this situation.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

As long as its in writing and you like the terms I don't see an issue.


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## MrsFergione (Jul 7, 2013)

That's what I was thinking, especially with a male. Since obviously there are far less risks and time commitments involved in the male side of breeding as well. His lines compliment my bitch's lines well too and we plan to breed her when she is hip certified and titled.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Make sure EVERYTHING is discussed and written down.

I've heard stories where a dog was co-owned. The person that raised it then decided to breed/stud it, and the other person didn't agree with that decision (they weren't going to get compensated) and there was a huge deal made about signing the registration paperwork (all owners have to sign off on a breeding).

So say you raise the dog, title it, and believe it should be bred, but the co-owner doesn't. If they stick to their guns...you're out all that work. You might want to use this male to breed to a female, then get a female out of that litter in order to have your foundation bitch. Well...that co-owner can put a stop to all that.

If you know this breeder well, you think you have a pretty strong relationship with them (and I'm talking very friendly), and you can trust their word or their written word, go for it. IMO, if you're planning on starting a kennel, you want to leave all your options open, and not have it dependent on anyone else. Maybe the full price of that dog just isn't worth it.

Would the breeder be willing to mentor you even if you owned the dog outright? Maybe promise them that you wouldn't charge them for stud service, or you'd get that foundation bitch out of a breeding with them?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wonder, what if the breeder wants to use your dog even though one of the following was true: 
a. the dog does not pass his ofa's
b. the dog is not titled to the level that you want him to be to breed him
c. the dog is over-sized or under-sized
d. the dog has a conformation fault such as down-ears
e. the dog is reactive 
f. the dog has a minor health issue like allergies, lingering panostetis, recurrent demodex issues. 

And, who determines what the requirements will be for the bitches? 

What happens if you are having trouble with him and your trainer and vet think that it would be best to neuter him? I think a breeder who gives you a dog on a co-ownership might have to agree to the neuter. 

I think that it might be better to pay for the dog, and make an agreement with the breeder that you will come to her when the dog is old enough for breeding, and have her evaluate the dog, and if both of you decide that the dog meets your expectations for breeding, you will make a deal at that time about the stud arangement, whether you want to breed for a pup, or a fee, or give her one free breeding, etc. 

If you trust her, and will learn a lot from her, then maybe just do it her way, and it will turn out great. If it doesn't it is a learning experience. 

Will both names be on the AKC registration papers if he is co-owned?


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Co-owning can be a mess or a dream. Make sure everybody is on the same page, that your interests are protected, and that there is a CLEAR definition of the terms. Martemchik & selzer bring up some excellent points.

You might be able to get a much nicer dog this way than you could obtain with an outright ownership. You may save money by splitting costs of testing, titling, and transport. You may benefit from your mentor's knowledge of the breed and/or fast-track your networking with the right people.

You could also discover that you don't agree with your co-owner, don't like the bitches they choose to stud him to, or don't think he's the same quality as they do. A lot of hassle goes into a co-ownership. They can blame a lot on you if their dog doesn't turn out 'right' and they might take all the credit if he does.

Think on it, consider your relationship with the person carefully, and proceed with due caution.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would not do it. Just own him yourself and she can pay a stud fee to use him if he's good for breeding. It seems like these scenarios always heavily benefit one person over the other. You can have plenty of mentors without having to co-own. I have several mentors that have helped me by answering lots of questions and even being present for a breeding (three GSD people and two Border Collie people). My dog's breeder has also been involved in his training and showing without having to own him.

Really the only times I've seen co-ownerships work were where when both parties basically had equal knowledge of the breed, equal experience with the training and that sort of thing, both very much on the same page from the beginning and not one person wanting/needing help from the other. In situations where it's more hierarchical (mentorship, breeder wanting to retain control or breeding rights) I've seen way too many go sour.

ETA: There are _less_ risks and commitments with the male side but believe me it is WAY more work than I ever anticipated. It is still risky and can be stressful, especially for me as my male is not just a stud dog to me, he is my best friend and my companion. He's just had one litter and quite honestly with everything involved I just don't think it's worth it even if he were the best GSD on earth, so if I like the dog I'm picking from that litter, he's done being bred. Nothing ever seems to go the way you plan or have the right timing!


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## WGSD Nikko (Jul 24, 2013)

I just recently got my co own puppy and I believe as long as everyone is on the same page, then there shouldn't be any problems. I am co owning a male, only because I wouldn't feel comfortable co owning a female. 
Something my breeder made a point of is that my male could only be bred to her stock, she could not just call me and say hey I need Rocky to mate with so and so's bitch. So make sure you ask about that. Also know who pays for all hip testing. In my contract we go half which to me was fair, since half is still less then the cost of the puppy had I just bought him. 
Some one below me mentioned about asking her about standards. My breeder will not breed rocky if he has any temperament issues, ear issues, growth issues, ect ect. It is important to understand what their standards are and know in the end, your dog may not be what they need. If you are on agreements on what the standards are, then this will make co owning easier. 
I think with a lot of the new laws coming out regarding breeders, co owning is going to become an essential thing. 


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

It can go a lot of ways. I've had co-owns, all females and with people I trust. But you need a couple things. First a co-own as far as AKC is concerned deals with nothing but registration. you BOTH need to sign to register a litter and that's about it. 

Everything else needs to be in a written contract between you two. I'd make sure it spells out what happens if they male doesn't meet certain requirements, who pays for everything? How many breedings does your original breeder get with your male? 2? 10? unlimited for the rest of his life? what health tests are going to be required prior to breeding? Brucellosis?

After requirements are met, when will she sign over her co-own rights? what if she agrees to 1 breeding and calling it good, but then decides she wants 2 and hasn't signed over her co-own yet? and you have a breeding done, and now she won't sign to register the litter? Spell that stuff out in the contract.

I have co-owned, probably would in the future with the right people. It was a great way for me to get into the breed, but all else being equal, I'd rather own the dog outright myself. Less questions, less stress, etc. you can still do everything else, get mentored, learn a lot, train and title, etc.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I guess the only benefit of co-owning is getting a potentially good dog for free or little money. If you fully own the dog you can still have a good mentor relationship with the breeder, if not better like the quote "Good fences make good neighbors".
It doesn't take much for things to go sour. Have seen to much proof of that. If it were about "stuff" it would be different but it is about a dog.
Personally I would never co-own. I want to make the decisions that I think are right for my dog.


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