# Collar types



## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.


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## Pax8 (Apr 8, 2014)

It is simply a different method of training. I used it when I first learned dog training a long long time ago. It can be used correctly, with minimal stress to the dog. Not saying it will ever be a similar method to a gentle leader/easy walk. But if used correctly it can deliver similar results. I personally use mainly positive reinforcement and tools like the gentle leader/easy walk, but I don't rule out tools like the prong or ecollar completely. Not every method will work for every dog, so you have to be adaptable to the dog you are working with. 

Plus if you go into dogs that are working in sport like IPO, the collars are used with very specific focus on increasing/decreasing a dog's drive in very high intensity situations. 

The big caveat is I only support the use of tools like these when they are used CORRECTLY. And that even includes the gentle leader/easy walk. People can screw up the application of those as well. Can't tell you how many people I've had to correct because they put an easy walk on their dog and were using it to yank the dog's feet out from under them and slamming the dog's head into the ground, or people who yank the gentle leader or attach the dog to a flexi and let them torque their neck when they hit the end of 16 feet at full speed. Same thing with people who throw prong collars on their dogs way too loose then never do any training and expect the collar to teach the dog to walk properly. Every tool can be abused.

I will always hate choke collars and refuse to ever use one on a dog. That's my only exception.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I use treats and lures and positive reinforcement to train my now 8 month old pup, but there are times when he sees another dog and even with the tastiest treat or favorite toy I cannot get him to focus back on me. I have a martingale but it does nothing to help reestablish focus with this pup. I use the chain collar and he minds much better. If the collar tightens up and doesn't loosen quickly I have him stand and I make sure it releases. I can also hook the live ring with the hook on his car harness which limits how tightly it can constrict. 

If I hook the lead to his car harness only he knows he is allowed to pull. We use that harness to connect to the car's seat belt, for water play, and we have another harness for IPO. Using a No Pull style harness might be confusing. 

I'm not fond of chocking my dog but I've heard him cough and struggle more with the martingale and flat collar than the chain. 

It all depends on the dog. With one dog I used a chain but almost never had to correct my dog once she learned how to heel on command. Another dog did well on a martingale but she was 22 lbs and not terribly stubborn.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

why? because they work. i never walk my dogs without prong collars on. i never actually have to yank them. only the slightest shake of the leash to redirect attention if needs be. if you don't believe in using them then don't. what's the point of this thread?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I've used flat collars, no pull harness, regular harness, halti's, gentle leaders, and prongs. Delgado is the first dog that needed a prong, he's a WL GSD and medium to high drive so a collar pop on a flat while he's in drive or distracted is going to do nada. I trained him every day from the day he came home at 9 weeks and his biggest issue was he hated to walk being restricted - he just wanted to run and play and didn't understand slowing down and keeping with the group.

I took him to classes, had multiple trainers work with me and take him and work with him using different methods. Nothing worked and at the end I was just tossed the leash and told to keep working at it. It wasn't until he matured that I saw good progress but when he became dog reactive at 9 months I knew I was out of options and purchased a prong collar. It's been nothing but wonderful, 99% of corrections are self-corrections where the collar tightens and he realizes he needs to step back without me moving a muscle. The amount of force I was using to hold him back or maneuverer him was very taxing on me both physically and mentally and that is negated. He wears his prong and I walk with confidence because I know if push comes to shove I have what I need to control him between my body, voice, and collar

Use what works for you, it's that simple. Before I tried a prong I would have hesitated to say whether I really believe in them or not but after seeing the difference I've learned to not judge a book by the cover. I've tried it on myself and it really doesn't hurt much

Same goes with ecollars, I've never used one but if push came to shove I would get the best one for me and get a trainer to show me how to use it. If it worked then great, if it didn't I'd try something else

Most people who escalate to prongs and ecollars have exhausted the others

Also, realize that John Smith on the street most likely never learned how to use either collar properly so don't base your judgements on him  Have a trainer demonstrate and judge the response for yourself


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## Alice13 (Feb 21, 2014)

I was against it too but I realised that some dogs like mine are gonna need more than positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement only works when we are alone but when another dog comes she just goes haywire. Trust me, I tried for 6 months before giving it up and finally getting her a choke chain. Now, she is much better behaved.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.


 
Depends what you want out of training and the standards you set for yourself and clients. Depends on the type of dog your working with.

If you want to use a band aid like a gentle leader or easywalk then go for it. 

If you want to teach the dog quickly and clearly then use a prong or some othe technique.

Here is a very soft wiem that I used both prong and e collar on for recall and pet heeling. Prong was used to teach the dog the concept of staying on the hip. E collar was layered over to add reliability. This was 3 sessions. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa0XzjzkRjI&list=UUaeseTo3XeBPdDKA09Ifzew

Now the dog can be off leash and enjoys greater freedom to explore the world while living in an urban environment.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.


 I'm not comfortable with the injuries that are likely with gentle leaders and no pull harnesses, personally. Pinch collars are safe and effective, and a lot easier for me to use (and look better, IMO) than the harnesses and head collars. Bother the dog and me less. 

I've never had much success with a head collar or no-pull harness when I've tried them. Every dog is going to be different, some they may work for and others they definitely won't. Have to have the tools in your belt to assess the situation and apply the correct ideas to the dog in front of you.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, I think I'm missing something here.


Will you ever be able to walk your dog without putting a gentle lead on it first? 

Whatever you use should be a training tool. The end goal is to have to no longer use that tool except for training. Imo the end result is not having to put any kind of tool on a dog just to walk it. It should be able to walk fine on a flat collar or no collar at all. If you have to use a gentle leader for the rest of the dogs life then you haven't trained anything.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*well said*



Gib_laut said:


> Will you ever be able to walk your dog without putting a gentle lead on it first?
> 
> Whatever you use should be a training tool. The end goal is to have to no longer use that tool except for training. Imo the end result is not having to put any kind of tool on a dog just to walk it. It should be able to walk fine on a flat collar or no collar at all. If you have to use a gentle leader for the rest of the dogs life then you haven't trained anything.


Well said. That is exactly what I tell my clients. The goal of training using tools is to one day not need them. To just be able to get the desired behaviors from your dog using body language and voice commands. Luckily, my husky learned after a while with treats, harness, more exercise, and eventually he didn't need those tools anymore. My gsd was a perfect gentleman from day one. He never needed anything, not even a leash for walking, he would heel by my side without the use of any kind of tool, just my voice command. Ofcourse i walked him on a leash to cover my own butt in case of liability, but it was nice knowing he didnt need it... miss my perfect dog


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Well said. That is exactly what I tell my clients. The goal of training using tools is to one day not need them. To just be able to get the desired behaviors from your dog using body language and voice commands. Luckily, my husky learned after a while with treats, harness, more exercise, and eventually he didn't need those tools anymore. My gsd was a perfect gentleman from day one. He never needed anything, not even a leash for walking, he would heel by my side without the use of any kind of tool, just my voice command. Ofcourse i walked him on a leash to cover my own butt in case of liability, but it was nice knowing he didnt need it... miss my perfect dog


But you said you've never used anything other than a gentle lead? My advice is don't knock any other training tools until you've used them. Also not every dog is the same. There are dogs out there that would pull you down the street with the gentle lead on.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

It takes a lot of skill to get a dog to comply via pain .e collars are a modern version of the law of the club.
I can use a club and get the same results as the e collat. The dog will obey to avoid pain. If you think the dog dose not know the handler is the cause of the pain via e collar how narrow minded.
Have to wonder how man even trained a dog with out electric shock


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

My tools are a flat collar 5ft leash and lots of time.But I have only been playing with gsd for 40 plus years now
So I know jack about working dogs


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I look at the e collar as a way to get the dog's attention from a distance, not to shock it into submission. I know a gal who used it when her dog was on the beach. If he started chasing a critter there is no way she could yell loud enough for the dog to hear her and come back. A ding on the collar broke his concentration on the chase long enough to realize he was being recalled from his chase. 

of course that required something the dog liked for breaking the chase and coming back.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

canyadoit said:


> It takes a lot of skill to get a dog to comply via pain .e collars are a modern version of the law of the club.
> I can use a club and get the same results as the e collat. The dog will obey to avoid pain. If you think the dog dose not know the handler is the cause of the pain via e collar how narrow minded.
> Have to wonder how man even trained a dog with out electric shock


Clearly you don't know how to use one properly. How narrow minded. 

I think too many people use e-collars for the wrong reasons- a bandaid. It should be very subtle, nothing like a "club" and not at all painful. Most people don't have the patience or finesse or knowledge, so they zap the dog at way too high a level for doing something "wrong." 

They're all tools that can be used properly and effectively, or be abused. Gentle leaders can also be abused (and cause major damage, more than a prong), and they don't actually teach anything. It really depends on the dog and what the dog responds to- dogs are not "one size fits all" with training, and what works for one might not work for another. Then when you get into sport and performance dogs, that's a whole different ball of wax.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

canyadoit said:


> My tools are a flat collar 5ft leash and lots of time.But I have only been playing with gsd for 40 plus years now
> So I know jack about working dogs


Based on your posts about ecollars I think you already made it clear you don't know jack in general


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

canyadoit said:


> It takes a lot of skill to get a dog to comply via pain .e collars are a modern version of the law of the club.
> I can use a club and get the same results as the e collat. The dog will obey to avoid pain. If you think the dog dose not know the handler is the cause of the pain via e collar how narrow minded.
> Have to wonder how man even trained a dog with out electric shock


 
Video? I always enjoy watching other peoples training.

I can train a dog with a stick and a bag of food. Why would I though? It is not 1950.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Barbie- what are you feelings on e-collars than?


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Update*



Gib_laut said:


> But you said you've never used anything other than a gentle lead? My advice is don't knock any other training tools until you've used them. Also not every dog is the same. There are dogs out there that would pull you down the street with the gentle lead on.


I've never had to use anything stronger, IMO the gentle leader is not stronger than the harness, I view them equally. Anyway, my point was I've never used A shock collar, prong, choke etc...


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

canyadoit said:


> It takes a lot of skill to get a dog to comply via pain .e collars are a modern version of the law of the club.
> I can use a club and get the same results as the e collat. The dog will obey to avoid pain. If you think the dog dose not know the handler is the cause of the pain via e collar how narrow minded.
> Have to wonder how man even trained a dog with out electric shock





canyadoit said:


> My tools are a flat collar 5ft leash and lots of time.But I have only been playing with gsd for 40 plus years now
> So I know jack about working dogs


Unfortunately their are some of us that would not agreed with your views, but if you have been fortunate to have dogs that comply with your current approach then that is great. I have had such a diverse number of personalities over my 40+ years that I am at peace with using a variety of approaches. I have primarily had GSD's from very intense working lines, that all have required different approaches and tools. My intent is always to positively bring out the behavior I would like, but some dogs, sometimes, need a little compulsion to keep their heads on straight. I use just enough pressure to achieve the desired result. I have never inflicted pain, just enough stimulation to get their attention back on me. Given the very strong personalities of these types of GSD's, they can sometimes think they are the ones who are the deciders and so a little pressure from the handler is more beneficial in the long run then harmful.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Lol*



VTGirlT said:


> Barbie- what are you feelings on e-collars than?


I haven't had to use them yet  then again I had the perfect model of a gsd, he listened to everything I said and was an angel so I'm a little biased lol.


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I haven't had to use them yet  then again I had the perfect model of a gsd, he listened to everything I said and was an angel so I'm a little biased lol.



Wow, that's great you had a perfect angel of a dog. But why come here knocking people who don't have perfect dogs and choose to use training tools? My GSD is far from perfect and wears a prong not because I'm not out there everyday working with him but because he is stronger than me. 

Maybe someday you'll own a less than perfect dog.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Say whaT?*



E.Hatch said:


> Wow, that's great you had a perfect angel of a dog. But why come here knocking people who don't have perfect dogs and choose to use training tools? My GSD is far from perfect and wears a prong not because I'm not out there everyday working with him but because he is stronger than me.
> 
> Maybe someday you'll own a less than perfect dog.


I think I'm lost... At what point was I knocking anyone? Please go back to the beginning in my post and you will see I'm only asking questions and confused as to why people use certain devices but never once said it was bad or wrong... Please quote me where I was shaming someone for using what they use? I think I missed that lol...


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I haven't had to use them yet  then again I had the perfect model of a gsd, he listened to everything I said and was an angel so I'm a little biased lol.


Well at least you are aware you have an easy "perfect" dog!  
Mine is not socially or medically perfect. But she is simply a miraculous life with a lot to teach me. Lets just say, my next will seem like an easy dog. And yours will probably be a lot harder for you.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Yep*



VTGirlT said:


> Well at least you are aware you have an easy "perfect" dog!
> Mine is not socially or medically perfect. But she is simply a miraculous life with a lot to teach me. Lets just say, my next will seem like an easy dog. And yours will probably be a lot harder for you.


Probably haha !, I always told my husband how lucky we were and how good we had it ;-)


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Never used one most lily never will I belive in building trust and communication is the way to train . This takes a great deal of time and understanding of the dog being worked
Just because I do not see the necessity of using the e collars dose not mean that others should not.
I do notice here , if a opposite view is taken it is not received well at all. 

To each their own. Myself it comes down to the hours invested in training.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> Never used one most lily never will I belive in building trust and communication is the way to train . This takes a great deal of time and understanding of the dog being worked
> Just because I do not see the necessity of using the e collars dose not mean that others should not.
> I do notice here , if a opposite view is taken it is not received well at all.
> 
> To each their own. Myself it comes down to the hours invested in training.


I respect your opinion, thus is why my question follows as: How does an e-collar _not_ build with trust and communication?


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

canyadoit said:


> Never used one most lily never will I belive in building trust and communication is the way to train . This takes a great deal of time and understanding of the dog being worked
> Just because I do not see the necessity of using the e collars dose not mean that others should not.
> I do notice here , if a opposite view is taken it is not received well at all.
> 
> To each their own. Myself it comes down to the hours invested in training.


"I do notice here, if a opposite view is taken, where I completely bash anyone with the view opposite of mine[sic], it is not received well at all." 
Making snide remarks about a training tool is the pot calling the kettle black. 


I guess it comes down to what the "perfect" dog is, too. My bitch might require a firmer hand, but I still consider her to be the perfect dog. My male is extremely obedient and I use positive-only with him (save for a prong for security), but he's far from perfect.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Witz great post to my comment , thanks for that. I get dogs that folks have ruined. Usally around three years of age. Then I slowly bring them around There is no shortage of well bread gsd that have been ruined. The best part is they are free. The worst part is the issues they have and one never gets the whole story.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I think I'm lost... At what point was I knocking anyone? Please go back to the beginning in my post and you will see I'm only asking questions and confused as to why people use certain devices but never once said it was bad or wrong... Please quote me where I was shaming someone for using what they use? I think I missed that lol...


Ya know Barbie, I read it as a kind of balance of implication in your statements that what you do is better: 



> Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? .


But leaving that little bit of clever deniability. 



> I think I'm lost... At what point was I knocking anyone?


It would be like me asking, Does anyone here really think anything to do with Animal Behavior College should be considered a credential?

But I'm not knocking you Barbie. See what I mean?


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> Witz great post to my comment , thanks for that. I get dogs that folks have ruined. Usally around three years of age. Then I slowly bring them around There is no shortage of well bread gsd that have been ruined. The best part is they are free. The worst part is the issues they have and one never gets the whole story.


I had pure intentions in my question, not sure if this was to me. But my question was, "How does an e-collar _not_ build with trust and communication?"


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

canyadoit said:


> Witz great post to my comment , thanks for that. I get dogs that folks have ruined. Usally around three years of age. Then I slowly bring them around There is no shortage of well bread gsd that have been ruined. The best part is they are free. The worst part is the issues they have and one never gets the whole story.


I guess it all depends on if we're talking about wheat or rye :shrug: 


Those dogs have nothing to do with the tools and everything to do with the idiots who owned them. I've seen just as many dogs ruined without the (correct) use of tools...I'm sure anyone working in rescue has come across a boatload of dogs who are ruined by people who don't know what an e-collar is. I also own a dog who was ruined by the incorrect use of an e-collar and I still use one on my female for certain things- different dog, different circumstances, more knowledge.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Ok*



Steve Strom said:


> Ya know Barbie, I read it as a kind of balance of implication in your statements that what you do is better:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see it as just a question, if someone leads to their own conclusions, that's their business  now if I said, using e collars is wrong and you should be ashamed... Then yea I am knocking haha.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Ya know Barbie, I read it as a kind of balance of implication in your statements that what you do is better:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love your breakdown of this. I think it went over some heads, but it is such a typical debate "technique" (one which I've noticed you use constantly, OP..both in this thread and others). It always humors me when it's used and then shock and disbelief is expressed when people take it with exactly the undertone it was written. ;-)

@canit....your anecdotal stories add little to discrediting a tool. I could spit right back at you, that deciding not to use, taking a long butt time to do something (when it can and has been achieved faster with other methods) and build a "relationship" with a dog (as if this is the only way to do that) is bullocks and does little for the dog, if anything it leaves the dog in a state of confusion much longer than it should to be, which imho, is a small form of cruelty...that's my retort for your "I prefer to take awhile and build a bond."

As for not building as strong a "relationship" I laugh at that. I just got done training a pretty messed up, fearful, dog. He was trained pretty strictly with ecollar and prong, with praise and play as the reward. In three weeks, he was a completely different dog. I felt quite bonded to the little guy, and he was thrilled to work with me every time I took him out for work. Another dog, same thing....trained similarly, not as bad fear aggressive-wise, but is a different dog and quite bonded to me, regardless of compulsion use. All are "fixed" in a short time, owners are unbelievably happy, and dogs are more free and relaxed. Balance in training, while moving forward as quickly as possible (dictated by the individual dog), is a magical thing. The dogs don't cower from me, they don't interact because of fear of "pain" they interact and enjoy playing with me because we've bonded...they trust me...they trust my clear fair communication.

I'm not saying your method doesn't work, just saying I'd rather help more dogs at a time (which is possible if I can achieve it quickly and efficiently), and I'm not going to knock other methods....unless those using their methods decide to get offensive with those that choose compulsion....and yes, your statements have the same undertone that OP's have. Things like "I would rather create a bond....my dogs were 'ruined' by a tool" etc...is implying that those using tools lack the ability to create the bond you created. Wrong. 

People that use ecollars, prongs, etc...really, for the most part, could care less what others use. It's when their methods and ability to "bond/connect" come under fire (even in backhanded ways), that hackles are raised, defense stances are taken, and weaknesses in the other methods are pointed out. Then the people who brought those that use the tools under fire cry, "I never said that....I didn't mean to offend (said in a shocking whiny voice)....why are you so defensive...ecollar people are so mean when it comes to their stance..." It's the same every time, and thank goodness it's now just comical to me.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Response*



DaniFani said:


> I love your breakdown of this. I think it went over some heads, but it is such a typical debate "technique" (one which I've noticed you use constantly, OP..both in this thread and others). It always humors me when it's used and then shock and disbelief is expressed when people take it with exactly the undertone it was written. ;-)
> 
> @cannotdoit....your anecdotal stories add little to discrediting a tool. I could spit right back at you, that deciding not to use, taking a long butt time to do something (when it can and has been achieved faster with other methods) and build a "relationship" with a dog (as if this is the only way to do that) is bullocks and does little for the dog, if anything it leaves the dog in a state of confusion much longer than it should to be, which imho, is a small form of cruelty...that's my retort for your "I prefer to take awhile and build a bond."
> 
> ...


I just like to pose questions to people, questions that either make people think or generate an intelligent discussion, or sometimes I'm really just curious about something, in particular this one topic. I could never figure out why anyone would use anything stronger than a halti lead or a harness, and now that I have posed my question, I see everyone's reasoning, and it opens up a new understanding for me. It is surprising that people get defensive when they see that people are capable of asking questions about their methods. It makes me think... What are they being defensive about or rather, WHY? Guess it's less shocked and more of maybe a little surprise and mostly head scratching know what I'm saying?


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

I find that those who use any tool from a basic collar and leash all the way up to an e-collar if not familiar with the tool can inflict pain to varying degree's. Most of the issues with tools being used incorrectly is letting the human emotion of a given moment travel thru to the equipment/tool. There is plenty of stories that involve the inappropriate use of all of them, causing harm to the dog. You need to know your dog to know whether you need to step up the ladder of tools. Along those lines there are dogs who you can apply pressure and they have no ill effects from it. There are others who respond negatively to pressure. You have to to be keenly aware of what you are dealing with and a whole of people just don't! In fact, if you know your dog knows what is being asked and decides they are not in the mood, then a little pressure lets them know that your request is not to be second guessed. Other damaged or weak nerve dogs need mostly positive influences to respond. Either way, this is about obedience, the ability to proof a known command with a tool or positive reinforcement can be lifesaving in an unpredictable and sudden situation change.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> I just like to pose questions to people, questions that either make people think or generate an intelligent discussion, or sometimes I'm really just curious about something, in particular this one topic. I could never figure out why anyone would use anything stronger than a halti lead or a harness, and now that I have posed my question, I see everyone's reasoning, and it opens up a new understanding for me. It is surprising that people get defensive when they see that people are capable of asking questions about their methods. It makes me think... What are they being defensive about or rather, WHY? Guess it's less shocked and more of maybe a little surprise and mostly head scratching know what I'm saying?


You're doing it again..... I explained why in my post. Reread it. 

I'll try another analogy... A cop pulls you over and says, "let me search your trunk." You say, "no, get a warrant." They say, "well now I'm searching it because if you had nothing to hide you'd let me search it." There is a reason police can't do that. Me saying no, and getting defensive when a lack of bond is implied because I use a tool...THAT is WHY people get defensive. You saying, "it makes me wonder why" is the same as a cop saying "I'm searching your vehicle because I asked, you said no, and if you had nothing to hide you'd let me.... So now I think you have something to hide." it's BS.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Vs I can not answer that as I do not use them . I can pose this question though Dose your dog preform the same with out the collar? 
Love echo I have no idea if any of the dogs had a e collar used on them before I got them. I never ask.
On my way home with dog number two . I saw a pup screaming because it was being shocked repetitively. It was hander fault.
I did nothing since it is not my dog and not my place to do anything. Why simple, dogs are property of the owner.


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

Personally, I may get defensive because I have never been asked why I was using a prong by anyone who didn't then launch into a slew of misinformation about the tool's harmful effects. I do not believe these people were asking to know my reasons, but to tell me why my reasons were wrong. It is, frankly, tiring to have the same abuses thrown at you again and again.

I do not use a prong on my girl. She is soft, and learns quickly with other methods. I did use one with my male when I first got him. He was already 70lbs and had never learned to listen to people; his leash manners were atrocious and he would have been a danger to me and himself in this crowded area. I used it for perhaps two weeks, by which time he had begun to bond with me and knew the limits of the leash. It has been collecting dust since, but I would not hesitate to use it again in an appropriate situation. 

I have never used an ecollar but would not rule it out if the situation required it.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

I am honest when I state I know jack. I learn something new each day . Each one of my three dogs teach me something new each day as well. Imo when I think I know it and stop trying to learn I regress.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*I digress*



DaniFani said:


> You're doing it again..... I explained why in my post. Reread it.
> 
> I'll try another analogy... A cop pulls you over and says, "let me search your trunk." You say, "no, get a warrant." They say, "well now I'm searching it because if you had nothing to hide you'd let me search it." There is a reason police can't do that. Me saying no, and getting defensive when a lack of bond is implied because I use a tool...THAT is WHY people get defensive. You saying, "it makes me wonder why" is the same as a cop saying "I'm searching your vehicle because I asked, you said no, and if you had nothing to hide you'd let me.... So now I think you have something to hide." it's BS.


Your confusing, let's just let it die and get back to the subject, or if you don't have anything you want to add to training tools then you don't have to comment. If you do have something to add, I'd love to see your reasoning behind your training methods.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Rose I sort of said the same earlier. It is common here


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

These threads get heated usually because one side has never used a tool and yet bash it. The ignorance is what gets things heated.


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## angierose (Apr 20, 2009)

Oh, and as for why I picked the prong over the head halter or other devices; I needed speed. I needed to be able to take Sam to the back yard, away from the fenceline and all the dogs walking by who he wanted to tear apart. There didn't even need to be dogs out there; he had learned fence-running, he was on guard as soon as we went out. He didn't want his head touched, and the front-clip harness would have spun him around a little probably, but he would have ignored that. A simple prong pop when he started towards the fence, and he came along willingly and focused on me. I never used it to correct him for barking, because he never had a chance to get that far. I'd walk him to the backyard and we'd work on things there, away from distractions, but I'd never had made it there quietly with just a flat collar and a bag of treats.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Agreed*



angierose said:


> Personally, I may get defensive because I have never been asked why I was using a prong by anyone who didn't then launch into a slew of misinformation about the tool's harmful effects. I do not believe these people were asking to know my reasons, but to tell me why my reasons were wrong. It is, frankly, tiring to have the same abuses thrown at you again and again.
> 
> I do not use a prong on my girl. She is soft, and learns quickly with other methods. I did use one with my male when I first got him. He was already 70lbs and had never learned to listen to people; his leash manners were atrocious and he would have been a danger to me and himself in this crowded area. I used it for perhaps two weeks, by which time he had begun to bond with me and knew the limits of the leash. It has been collecting dust since, but I would not hesitate to use it again in an appropriate situation.
> 
> I have never used an ecollar but would not rule it out if the situation required it.



100% agree angierose. Not enough people ask questions and then listen to the answers. More people listen and then shame and blame, maybe this is why people who are genuinely curious or want to ask questions to gain a better understanding get a bad rap.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Wow*



canyadoit said:


> Vs I can not answer that as I do not use them . I can pose this question though Dose your dog preform the same with out the collar?
> Love echo I have no idea if any of the dogs had a e collar used on them before I got them. I never ask.
> On my way home with dog number two . I saw a pup screaming because it was being shocked repetitively. It was hander fault.
> I did nothing since it is not my dog and not my place to do anything. Why simple, dogs are property of the owner.


You brought up an amazing topic, I feel I need to start another thread now haha... Watch for it. Thanks for the idea can ya


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

canyadoit said:


> Witz great post to my comment , thanks for that. I get dogs that folks have ruined. Usally around three years of age. Then I slowly bring them around There is no shortage of well bread gsd that have been ruined. The best part is they are free. The worst part is the issues they have and one never gets the whole story.
> 
> 
> Vs I can not answer that as I do not use them . I can pose this question though Dose your dog preform the same with out the collar?
> ...


So...then by your own argument, this has nothing to do with the type of tool used, if one is used at all.

As for that dog you saw, the collar was probably being used by someone like you, who has no idea how to use it. :shrug:


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

OP: If you start another thread you may want to try and word your question in a more impartial way to avoid getting off topic.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Too late*



Sagan said:


> OP: If you start another thread you may want to try and word your question in a more impartial way to avoid getting off topic.


Too late I already started it haha, but I'm sure it's innocent enough ;-)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Why do people use choke/pinch/shock collars or martingale collars, why not just use a gentle leader? Or a harness that is anti pull that goes across the chest rather than the back? In my years of dog training , I have NEVER had to use Anything more powerful than a gentle leader or a anti pull harness, and the dog walks much better instantly, less pulling etc... And this method was tried on my husky and he loved to pull, but it worked. I just wonder if there is something I'm missing because I can't for the life of me figure out why people use these things. I want to volunteer with a gsd rescue, and they use these devices on the gsd as well, and i just dont get it, *I think I'm missing something here*.


Yes, you are. 

My collar of choice is a martingale. It is like a flat collar but, will not allow a frightened dog to slip its collar. It is not a correction collar,nor can it choke out a dog, as it can only tighten a limited amount.

Evenso, the prong collar is probably the safest and most humane collar. it tightens around the neck evenly, and does not cause problems with the larnyx that slip-collars (choke chains) can. Because less actual force is necessary to control an untrained dog, the dog is much less likely to do damage to its spine, etc.

Gentle leaders or Halti collars give you control of the dog's head, but if the dog bolts, it will twist its neck and can damage its spine. If the handler corrects with the collar, the dog can be injured. If the handler slips, the dog will likely be injured. And, dogs hate them in general. 

A dog that pulls on a flat collar can put himself out of alignment, and can damage his wind pipe. A frightened dog might slip a flat collar, and then you have a frightened naked dog, and that is always a recipe for disaster.

Harnesses have their place. Dogs pull. Sled dogs can pull way more than the weight of an adult human. And the weight is on shoulders. I am not versed in no-pull harnesses. Early ones had straps that came up under the legs, and would tighten. I suppose they have their place, especially for dogs with issues in their throat area. Harnesses for tracking and bite-work of course would be something only those training in those venues would need.

I have a harness to hook a seat belt too, but got a dog all wrapped up that way, and I feel they are just safer in crates when traveling.

Others will comment on e-collars, I'm not qualified.


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Ok'*



selzer said:


> Yes, you are.
> 
> My collar of choice is a martingale. It is like a flat collar but, will not allow a frightened dog to slip its collar. It is not a correction collar,nor can it choke out a dog, as it can only tighten a limited amount.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your interesting take on martingales, those are probably the devices I had the least knowledge about, and now I see why some people prefer them.


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

DaniFani said:


> You're doing it again..... I explained why in my post. Reread it.
> 
> I'll try another analogy... A cop pulls you over and says, "let me search your trunk." You say, "no, get a warrant." They say, "well now I'm searching it because if you had nothing to hide you'd let me search it." There is a reason police can't do that. Me saying no, and getting defensive when a lack of bond is implied because I use a tool...THAT is WHY people get defensive. You saying, "it makes me wonder why" is the same as a cop saying "I'm searching your vehicle because I asked, you said no, and if you had nothing to hide you'd let me.... So now I think you have something to hide." it's BS.



OP I think the way your post came across was that those of us who use a prong or other devices are doing a disservice to our dogs even though you didn't outright say that but it was implied. 

For example if you had posted "I don't understand why people feed kibble when all I have ever fed is raw and my dogs are perfect" then kibble feeders would take offense to that. 

Make sense?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Gib_laut said:


> These threads get heated usually because one side has never used a tool and yet bash it. The ignorance is what gets things heated.


Well...

I have never used a club on a dog, but if I saw someone trying to train a dog with one, I don't think I should have to try it myself to have an opinion. Just because a method can produce results doesn't mean it is acceptable. For example, choking a dog to unconsciousness was something people used to do with choke chains (no wonder so many windpipes were damaged). You don't have to try it to knock it.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

E.Hatch said:


> OP I think the way your post came across was that those of us who use a prong or other devices are doing a disservice to our dogs even though you didn't outright say that but it was implied.
> 
> For example if you had posted "I don't understand why people feed kibble when all I have ever fed is raw and my dogs are perfect" then kibble feeders would take offense to that.
> 
> Make sense?


Off topic...E.Hatch, I love your avatar picture. Btw I use a prong on Tess, I don't remember the last time I had to actually correct her with it. It is there if I need it, if I don't it isn't hurting anything. Della is almost 5 months and I have a flat collar on her. I'll probably be switching to a martingale soon.


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

ksotto333 said:


> Off topic...E.Hatch, I love your avatar picture. Btw I use a prong on Tess, I don't remember the last time I had to actually correct her with it. It is there if I need it, if I don't it isn't hurting anything. Della is almost 5 months and I have a flat collar on her. I'll probably be switching to a martingale soon.



Thanks  I can take credit for the dog but not the actual pic, Eugene's bros owner is a really good photographer and she took the pic.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Video?? All the discussion is fun but video always clears a lot of the confusion up. 

Here is one of the E Collar master..not the best bond but I hear he is working on it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxzTRfVgFJ0


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## Psalm 23 (Jul 7, 2014)

the difference a prong collar makes when properly used is phenomenol. Within 10 minutes of first introducing my then 7 month old to it, the dynamics of the walk changed. We walk together on a CONSTANT LOOSE LEASH and as stated above self-corrections seem to be the majority. I like to give the command "free" to allow him free regain for 10-15 paces, then give the command "lets go" to let him know he now needs to find me and get back to my side, also constant change of direction 90 degrees to allow him to understand forging forward will most likely end in a self-correction. good luck


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Video?? All the discussion is fun but video always clears a lot of the confusion up.
> 
> Here is one of the E Collar master..not the best bond but I hear he is working on it....
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxzTRfVgFJ0


Lol I thought you were going to post a video of yourself. Of course a professional knows how to use an ecollar. I think the op's point is regular every day people don't know how to use it correctly. 

Post a video of yourself and show her how it's done!


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## lyssa62 (May 5, 2013)

car2ner said:


> I'm not fond of chocking my dog but I've heard him cough and struggle more with the martingale and flat collar than the chain.


 
me too and I'm convinced that can do just as much if not more damage than the prong collar I use. The flat collar roxy used to pull until she was gagging....she gets to the end of the prong collar trying to chase something she shouldn't it puts just enough strain on her that she stops. I am learning leash pop sounds with the prong so it's more the noise she hears than the tension she feels._ I had a trainer teach me how to use it. _


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

Interesting thread to read, I have previously had a pitbull, and he was a rehome so needed a choke chain. It didnt take him long and he was good to go on it. 

When I get I pup I plan on using an adjustable collar/leash because I know if I use it right it will be ok.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

lyssa62 said:


> me too and I'm convinced that can do just as much if not more damage than the prong collar I use. The flat collar roxy used to pull until she was gagging....she gets to the end of the prong collar trying to chase something she shouldn't it puts just enough strain on her that she stops. I am learning leash pop sounds with the prong so it's more the noise she hears than the tension she feels._ I had a trainer teach me how to use it. _


Yeah my uncle had a WL shepherd that had such a high drive that she would crush her esophagus on a flat collar. I think OP doesn't realize how different a dog's drive and hardness can be that require a prong collar not just for training but for the dog's well being and safety. Giving OP the benefit of the doubt she asked it to be explained so maybe this will help explain why these collars are a requirement sometimes.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

My dog is wearing an e collar throughout the training in this video.

https://vimeo.com/102484460

I think she's pretty happy.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's funny how we each see training tools, from our own experiences. When I see the head-harness style thing, I always think it's a terrible device that will either shut dogs down or turn their lunging into jumping on the spot, rub their facial hair off, and potentially injure their neck. I always think, "Why in the world is that person subjecting their dog to that cruelty?" LOL!!! Meanwhile I've got a prong collar on my dog, which I think is so much better for the dogs. It's got a nice smooth finish, so it just rests against my dog's neck, and if he's not pulling then he won't hardly notice it's there. I like to use it, because it's a physical "no" and I like that in general. I do alot of body blocks or scruffs - no, don't just assume alpha rolls, lmao! But I'm physical with my dogs in general, so to me it's a natural fit. You absolutely can't use the head thing like that, or you'll definitely hurt them. So I also don't see the point of them: you can't use it to communicate, so why bother with it at all? That's just my opinion of course, but it's funny to me that my view is the polar opposite of OP's, lol.


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

:thumbup::thumbup:


Blanketback said:


> It's funny how we each see training tools, from our own experiences. When I see the head-harness style thing, I always think it's a terrible device that will either shut dogs down or turn their lunging into jumping on the spot, rub their facial hair off, and potentially injure their neck. I always think, "Why in the world is that person subjecting their dog to that cruelty?" LOL!!! Meanwhile I've got a prong collar on my dog, which I think is so much better for the dogs. It's got a nice smooth finish, so it just rests against my dog's neck, and if he's not pulling then he won't hardly notice it's there. I like to use it, because it's a physical "no" and I like that in general. I do alot of body blocks or scruffs - no, don't just assume alpha rolls, lmao! But I'm physical with my dogs in general, so to me it's a natural fit. You absolutely can't use the head thing like that, or you'll definitely hurt them. So I also don't see the point of them: you can't use it to communicate, so why bother with it at all? That's just my opinion of course, but it's funny to me that my view is the polar opposite of OP's, lol.


:thumbup: Agreed!


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I have used E Collar and Prong during the training process on this dog for several things. Here we are fooling around this morning. I know it looks like I beat her with a club..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nNT7MDa6II&feature=youtu.be


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Blanketback said:


> It's funny how we each see training tools, from our own experiences. When I see the head-harness style thing, I always think it's a terrible device that will either shut dogs down or turn their lunging into jumping on the spot, rub their facial hair off, and potentially injure their neck. I always think, "Why in the world is that person subjecting their dog to that cruelty?" LOL!!! Meanwhile I've got a prong collar on my dog, which I think is so much better for the dogs. It's got a nice smooth finish, so it just rests against my dog's neck, and if he's not pulling then he won't hardly notice it's there.


Love this! I pretty much feel the same way about head collars and No-Pull harnesses (which I consider to be a gimmick, and not a training tool), but I have never used a head harness, nor a no-pull harness, so I'm not going to bad-mouth these items. 

One thing I do know from working with people who use head halters on their dog is: a head halter does not TEACH the dog anything. Take the head halter off, and you have the same problem behaviours. Another thing about head halters is that dogs can wiggle out of them easily. When I used to help out in pet obedience classes, guaranteed every class there would be one or two 'run-aways' of dogs that wiggled out and went visiting, while the owner was left standing there with an empty head-halter at the end of the leash. 

Plus, the majority of the dogs who had these head halters on spent all their focus and energy trying to get them off, as it was rubbing and irritating them so bad - and NOT interacting and having fun with their owners.

I do know that for some dogs, these harnesses are exactly what they need. May not be for every dog, or even the majority of dogs, but they do have their place among the collection of available handling and training tools.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

The Truth About Shock Collars a informative reading on this topic. both pro and con 

Reading these posts none have mentioned using this tool ( shock collar ) on themselves. I pose this . Put the collar on your own neck . Turn it to max setting . Give the trigger to a another person . They use a made up language and correct you accordingly . Say for a hour . Post what you feel . 

Highly doubt there be any takers here. i have yet to find anyone who will do this experiment this way. If you will not attempt this I ask why ?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> The Truth About Shock Collars a informative reading on this topic. both pro and con
> 
> Reading these posts none have mentioned using this tool ( shock collar ) on themselves. I pose this . Put the collar on your own neck . Turn it to max setting . Give the trigger to a another person . They use a made up language and correct you accordingly . Say for a hour . Post what you feel .
> 
> Highly doubt there be any takers here. i have yet to find anyone who will do this experiment this way. If you will not attempt this I ask why ?


used correctly it's only used once a dog knows what the command means. so it's not made up language. 
also it's rarely used at max. I don't and don't know anyone that does. 

there's a method of using ecollars on untrained dogs on really low levels. I don't like it but that's just me. 


anyway what you're describing is how not to use ecollars


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

also, this isn't about the ecollars. I can tell you to put on a leash and I will use a club after giving you commands in made up language. or I will pop the prong with all my might. 

so this isn't specific to ecollars. this is specific to dumb training and I'm on your side, it's sad to see.

ETA as I said before though, the ecollar is the easiest to abuse and it's being abused pretty often from what I see.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

canyadoit said:


> The Truth About Shock Collars a informative reading on this topic. both pro and con
> 
> Reading these posts none have mentioned using this tool ( shock collar ) on themselves. I pose this . Put the collar on your own neck . Turn it to max setting . Give the trigger to a another person . They use a made up language and correct you accordingly . Say for a hour . Post what you feel .
> 
> Highly doubt there be any takers here. i have yet to find anyone who will do this experiment this way. If you will not attempt this I ask why ?


Do you have any comments on the videos posted or are you just going to ignore those? 

Also if the max I turn it up on my dog is 30% then why the heck would I put it on my neck and turn it to 100%? Wouldn't that be really pointless and stupid? The majority of ecollar users have tried it on themselves. They know what their dog is feeling. 

Look at the videos posted in this thread. Are those dogs twitching from pain?


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Gib_laut said:


> The majority of ecollar users have tried it on themselves. They know what their dog is feeling.


they don't know what the dog is feeling. they have an idea. I don't feel anything before 15. some dogs respond to 6. 

but yeah, probably a subtle difference.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

gib so you will not attempt this experiment on your neck
no i have not watched videos show me a video of first time use or over use then i will watch . Video proves little on a dog that has been conditioned to this tool .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Got any video of the first time you put a leash on a dog canya? Was there any conditioning period?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

canyadoit said:


> The Truth About Shock Collars a informative reading on this topic. both pro and con
> 
> Reading these posts none have mentioned using this tool ( shock collar ) on themselves. I pose this . Put the collar on your own neck . Turn it to max setting . Give the trigger to a another person . They use a made up language and correct you accordingly . Say for a hour . Post what you feel .
> 
> Highly doubt there be any takers here. i have yet to find anyone who will do this experiment this way. If you will not attempt this I ask why ?


Simple answer, shock yourself at the level you are going to use not just a random one. Police officers using Tasers are normally required to be tased themselves before being allowed to use one, at least in this area they are. Your logic would be to set the Taser to its highest setting and tase someone - A) It's entirely dangerous and B) Utterley pointless to subject someone to that amount of harm for the sake of demonstration 
For *competent* trainers the punishment always matches the crime. If the dog gets blasted at a high level it's for a *good reason*, not just because you can. 

Secondly, most of training with the ecollar is proofing not teaching. You're correcting the dog for disobeying a known command not an unknown one


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

canyadoit said:


> gib so you will not attempt this experiment on your neck
> no i have not watched videos show me a video of first time use or over use then i will watch . Video proves little on a dog that has been conditioned to this tool .


So you're saying the dog is so used to the extreme pain that it no longer visually react to the "shock"?


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Steve no video of any training by me As stated i use a flat collar so i pop the leash give command and immediately put slack on the leash . It is simple no discomfort to the dog 

The part of conditioning must be rhetorical


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

canyadoit said:


> Steve no video of any training by me As stated i use a flat collar so i pop the leash give command and immediately put slack on the leash . It is simple no discomfort to the dog
> 
> The part of conditioning must be rhetorical


So the damage proven multiple times to be inflicted by flat collars such as crushed tracheas, damaged wind pipes, spinal injuries, is....what? Misleading? Wrong? Made up?


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

please at least look at The Truth About Shock Collars before you jump on me too much This page is base in science not personal ideological views 
As stated i do not use them also stated to each there own also stated try it on your own neck if not at full power then half power


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

No, not a rhetorical question. The point is conditioning. You've never had a dog resist the pop or fighting against tightening leash?


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

canyadoit said:


> Steve no video of any training by me As stated i use a flat collar so i pop the leash give command and immediately put slack on the leash . It is simple no discomfort to the dog
> 
> The part of conditioning must be rhetorical


So a pop of the leash doesn't cause the dog any discomfort? Hmm 

Look at the videos posted in this thread. Those dogs look like they're in more discomfort than a leash pop?


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Shade said:


> So the damage proven multiple times to be inflicted by flat collars such as crushed tracheas, damaged wind pipes, spinal injuries, is....what? Misleading? Wrong? Made up?


This. 
Why it's better for the dog to use prong.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> The Truth About Shock Collars a informative reading on this topic. both pro and con
> 
> Reading these posts none have mentioned using this tool ( shock collar ) on themselves. I pose this . Put the collar on your own neck . Turn it to max setting . Give the trigger to a another person . They use a made up language and correct you accordingly . Say for a hour . Post what you feel .
> 
> Highly doubt there be any takers here. i have yet to find anyone who will do this experiment this way. If you will not attempt this I ask why ?


You can ask one of mine- after the oldest blew himself clean down the stairs its become a brother to brother tool of war.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> please at least look at The Truth About Shock Collars before you jump on me too much This page is base in science not personal ideological views
> As stated i do not use them also stated to each there own also stated try it on your own neck if not at full power then half power


I've done just exactly that. The dogtra 1900ncp has 127 levels. Right when I got it I was playing around and tested it on my hand got up to level 90 but I was giggling the whole time because it was such a strange sensation. I put it on my neck and same thing went to 70 (started feeling too weird any higher). I wouldn't describe the feeling as painful, just odd. Since I've been using it with my dog over the last six months I haven't needed to increase it past 30 the entire time.

It's not a tool used to teach a new command but to proof one that the dog already knows in situations with more distraction. Its kind of like a tap on the shoulder reminding them that you've asked them to do something.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> Steve no video of any training by me As stated i use a flat collar so i pop the leash give command and immediately put slack on the leash . It is simple no discomfort to the dog
> 
> The part of conditioning must be rhetorical


Right to the point canyadoit, the discomfort is up to the dog. You don't have any say about it. His perception of your use of a flat collar could be a lot more uncomfortable then what he thinks about the ecollar. Your bias towards one and any articles you want to link don't mean anything.


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

Canyadoit I'd love to see a video of you with a flat collar on and hand someone the leash and make up a language and yank you as hard as they can (basically max power) for an hour. What would that prove?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e629TyfsG6o

On flat collars for training-


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk_0PW5MMbo


Here ^ this guy is using it on himself


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Another extremely instructive thread on the use of e collar and prong. There always has to be some poster blabbing about something they clearly know nothing about. Of course there are wonderful anecdotal stories but when the time comes to in actuality show the training there is resounding silence.
There is one of many nonsensical articles that were clearly just googled posted and excuses about conditioning made. Predictable..

Why on earth would you put a shock collar on a dog and start using it at max?? The ignorance revealed in that statement says it all in terms of the posters knowledge in relation to the electric collar and its application in training. How about this for an experiment, why don't you put a flat collar on your neck and have someone yank on it as hard as they can for an hour and post here how you feel afterwards. Let us know how it goes. For those who are interested in one of the few properly conducted studies on the electric collar as it applies to dog training there is a link available on the leerburg website. Very comprehensive study compared it to the use of other techniques in teaching the same command using multiple dogs exhibiting similar traits in the same training environment. when the title of a supposed study or scientific article uses the term shock collar you know all you need to know about the bias inherent in the authors work. 

Just so you know the client shown in my first video had the e collar used on each other so that they could understand the concept of timing and the appropriate selection of a dog's working level. I still await those videos with baited breath. 
I have no issue with people choosing to use various tools in their training but when people start criticizing and making ignorant statements about things they clearly know nothing about its good to request vids it really helps to sort the wheat from the chaff.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I dont know, i think some people get it in their heads that the dog is being shocked and hurt and no amount of training videos, logic, or explaining over and over again that these dogs are not being shocked or hurt is going to help.

Like prong collars, they are not cruel but no amount of arguing will convince certain people of that, there will always be the crowd that sees them as absusive collars ment to break a dog because of a picture they saw or because positive puppies only told them so, and hey if positive puppies work for you, that is great but sometimes pos pups dont work for everyone.

It is a losing battle, i strongly feel that the training tool of your choice is no one elses business-


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Good job everyone*

I think that this post has been most enlightening for me, and I hope that anyone else out there like myself who had questions or couldn't figure out why people use certain training tools on dogs can find this post, read through, watch the videos. I hope everyone including myself has gained a better understanding of an opposite point of view.


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

Should the dog fight the correction more than a set number of times , the session is simply over It gets repeated later on until we both get it down.
Yes I have try the flat collar on myself with correction with a buddy. A light to mild 'pop' is used , same as I use on my dogs . Little discomfort so I thought .I have also done this with the choke and prong. Lots of discomfort and pain.
I test all my dog 'tools' this way. I try the feed I run the obstacle course all of it ( vert walls A frames balance beem stairs tunnels crawl under the wire jump thru the window frames etc.) I also test the weight pull cart with the dogs starting weight. I jog on the slat mill and electric treadmill I do this a min of once a month with out fail. This is the way I was taught
Do you do any of this ?


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I test all my dog 'tools' this way. I try the feed I run the obstacle course all of it ( vert walls A frames balance beem stairs tunnels crawl under the wire jump thru the window frames etc.) I also test the weight pull cart with the dogs starting weight. I jog on the slat mill and electric treadmill I do this a min of once a month with out fail. This is the way I was taught
Do you do any of this ?


^ what does trying all of that out have to do with people doing what works best for them?


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Answer*



misslesleedavis1 said:


> I test all my dog 'tools' this way. I try the feed I run the obstacle course all of it ( vert walls A frames balance beem stairs tunnels crawl under the wire jump thru the window frames etc.) I also test the weight pull cart with the dogs starting weight. I jog on the slat mill and electric treadmill I do this a min of once a month with out fail. This is the way I was taught
> Do you do any of this ?
> 
> 
> ^ what does trying all of that out have to do with people doing what works best for them?



Or rather what is best for each dog as no dog is the same or responds the same to certain tools.


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

BARBIElovesSAILOR said:


> Or rather what is best for each dog as no dog is the same or responds the same to certain tools.


Ya pretty much, this is were that terribly hard to swallow "too each there own" pill comes in,


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## canyadoit (May 14, 2014)

I was answering a question posed to myself in the postings Had I try ed a flat collar on myself with correction with a leash. That is all .


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## Gib_laut (Jul 25, 2014)

canyadoit said:


> Should the dog fight the correction more than a set number of times , the session is simply over It gets repeated later on until we both get it down.
> Yes I have try the flat collar on myself with correction with a buddy. A light to mild 'pop' is used , same as I use on my dogs . Little discomfort so I thought .I have also done this with the choke and prong. Lots of discomfort and pain.
> I test all my dog 'tools' this way. I try the feed I run the obstacle course all of it ( vert walls A frames balance beem stairs tunnels crawl under the wire jump thru the window frames etc.) I also test the weight pull cart with the dogs starting weight. I jog on the slat mill and electric treadmill I do this a min of once a month with out fail. This is the way I was taught
> Do you do any of this ?


So if you just "mildly" pop yourself with a leash why do you want someone to use the ecollar at max setting? How is that the same? 

You pop yourself with the same correction that you use on your dog yet you want people to use the ecollar on max and not at the level they use on their dog. Hmm


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## Unforgiving (Jul 27, 2014)

Thought I'd posted in this already but can't see it. 

With my previous dog who was a rescue pitbull about 6 years old he pulled like anything. I used a choke chain/collar and it worked a treat. Initially he would pull but soon realised what was going on. I used to run with him for my own training and eventually I had him off leash running along side me. There are probably other ways to go about training them, but that one happened to work for me very quickly and progressed in a positive manner. Some people think they are mean, I think it worked. 

When I get my puppy I won't be using a choke chain, just a flat collar to start but will probably progress to a slip type adjustable lead when he/she is older because again I know that its all in how you use them.


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

This thread needs to end, the majority has weighed in. All dogs are different, Handler's experience varies and all tools can make a huge positive difference as well as cause damage. And remember all tools do come with directions and educational resources for proper use.

This is a message from the counsel on "Be Open-minded and Don't Get Stuck on Stupid".


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

canyadoit said:


> Should the dog fight the correction more than a set number of times , the session is simply over It gets repeated later on until we both get it down.
> Yes I have try the flat collar on myself with correction with a buddy. A light to mild 'pop' is used , same as I use on my dogs . Little discomfort so I thought .I have also done this with the choke and prong. Lots of discomfort and pain.
> I test all my dog 'tools' this way. I try the feed I run the obstacle course all of it ( vert walls A frames balance beem stairs tunnels crawl under the wire jump thru the window frames etc.) I also test the weight pull cart with the dogs starting weight. I jog on the slat mill and electric treadmill I do this a min of once a month with out fail. This is the way I was taught
> _*Do you do any of this*_ ?


Nope. And I never will either, so ya got me Mr. Doit. You are by far the humane-est . If you ever do get the urge to video, thats definitely some stuff I'd like to see though. You getting popped with a leash, lured with kibble, going over the a-frame, maybe some commentary from Danny Bonaduce? Good stuff.


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Steve Strom said:


> Nope. And I never will either, so ya got me Mr. Doit. You are by far the humane-est . If you ever do get the urge to video, thats definitely some stuff I'd like to see though. You getting popped with a leash, lured with kibble, going over the a-frame, maybe some commentary from Danny Bonaduce? Good stuff.


Lol me too.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Maybe ull post of vid of me biting a sleeve and chasing a ball if you post a vid of your training..


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Maybe ull post of vid of me biting a sleeve and chasing a ball if you post a vid of your training..


I hope you have great dental


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## BARBIElovesSAILOR (Aug 11, 2014)

*Delete*

Is there a way to stop a thread or delete it or disable further commenting? Just because I also feel like we have discussed this and this thread has achieved its purpose of everyone seeing a different point of view... Or at least have discussed this topic so much that there is nothing left to discuss


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

People will get bored and the thread will die on its own especially if people stop responding.  

ADMIN


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