# "Woman recovers from dog mauling." Thoughts?



## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Here is the article:

Jericho woman recovering from dog mauling - WCAX.COM Local Vermont News, Weather and Sports-

I have my opinion, but i want to see what other people have to say.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The dogs are dangerous. Owner is at fault. 

People should be able to walk up to your front door without getting attacked. There was no sign saying "no trespassing". What if that had been a child. Actually irrelevant. 

The dogs are dangerous.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

It's impossible to say anything given the insignificant amount of information in that article.

Should the dogs have attacked? Almost certainly not, but we've no guarantee that the victim did not do something to provoke them. It sounds like she had good intentions, but who knows what actually happened.

Interestingly, I don't see a single quote from the actual victim, only sensationalist statements from third parties that weren't there.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

I think it is very hard to say unless you seen what happened. She might have tried to run away and then the attack took place. 

Can't really trust everything everyone says. Here in this paragraph they show that they want the dogs destroyed. Do they have an unbiased opinion?


> The victim's family wants this story to be told because they believe these dogs are dangerous. "Even if it was their first time it has happened, it could easily happen again," Koenig said. "If they were my dogs, they would have been put down that night or the next morning; it's just not safe."


Maybe there was a sign, who knows. I guess it would have been better for the lady to shout in from the gate. Obviously it is horrible and wouldn't want my dogs acting like that, but my neighbors have dogs that are vicious as it is a very rural area and burglaries happen. Should the owners destroy the dogs even if they need guard dogs?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I think it's a very sad when we make excuses for a dog (s) that bite simply because an uninvited visitor comes on the property. I don't care if she turned and ran, where is the threat and why are the dogs allowed to act on that. Next could be a paperboy, girl guides selling cookies etc.
Now that the owner has failed to control the dogs, they are dangerous.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Saphire said:


> I think it's a very sad when we make excuses for a dog (s) that bite simply because an uninvited visitor comes on the property. I don't care if she turned and ran, where is the threat and why are the dogs allowed to act on that. Next could be a paperboy, girl guides selling cookies etc.
> Now that the owner has failed to control the dogs, they are dangerous.


No one is making excuses for the dogs' bite. But given that none of us were there, I don't think it's reasonable to assume there was no threat, real or perceived.

This is sensationalist, fear-mongering news made to sell papers and drive traffic, nothing else.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I doubt this was a silent attack. If the door was open where was the owner when they were nudging her, circling her and most likely barking and growling?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

A woman walks to a house to ask permission to pick berries. Where is the threat?
If my dog bites someone for walking up to my door to ask a question, he will be euthanized.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Stonevintage said:


> I doubt this was a silent attack. If the door was open where was the owner when they were nudging her, circling her and most likely barking and growling?


This IS the owners fault.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

It doesn't matter, she was on private property. Looks pretty secluded and it states it never happened before. Probably shouldn't have happened but it did and I can't say that having the dogs put down would be the right thing to do and it looks like the law doesn't think so either. It's a very one sided story without enough info for anyone to really have an opinion, but of course we all do


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Saphire said:


> A woman walks to a house to ask permission to pick berries. Where is the threat?


That statement is based on a third-party's (obviously - and understandably - biased) account. 

She may have yelled at the dogs.
She may have waved her hands at the dogs.
She may have stomped the ground in an attempt to scare the dogs.
She may have had something in her hands that looked dangerous.
She may have tried to kick the dogs.
She may have tried to pet the dogs after they gave off growls or other signs saying "back off".

She may have done a *million* things that were threatening. 

I am not saying she _did_, but given that we have literally zero first-hand information, jumping to conclusions and throwing around blame is not the right thing to do.


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## Majolica (Feb 18, 2015)

As far as I know, federal courts have upheld a public right to approach front doors without being assaulted, attacked, or killed. I believe that right is only limited if the owner actually communicates for the person to leave, either themselves or through a sign. Even then, meter checkers and others still have some access to private property. Based on what is written in this story, the dogs are dangerous. Regardless, it appears that Vermont is the place to be if you have a dangerous dog, their laws are some of the most lenient I have seen. (Though, as I said, there may well be stricter federal laws, possibly just case law.)


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## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

I've read the article more than once and watched the news reports.I hope the victim recovers in a timely fashion but unfortunately there will more than likely be not only physical scars but emotional as well.What a horrific experience.Who knows what really happened,but they should not have attacked ...... pack mentality kick in with 3 large untrained dogs?Just no excuse for this.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

yuriy said:


> That statement is based on a third-party's (obviously - and understandably - biased) account.
> 
> She may have yelled at the dogs.
> She may have waved her hands at the dogs.
> ...


And they are Newfoundland or Newfie mixes? Those dogs don't tend to have a mean bone in their body.

A few days ago a mans car "broke" down, he asked the woman for some change, she said no and went in. He knocked at door and asked to use her phone, she said no. He continued to break in, stab her in the face multiple times and rape her. I'm thinking that most people would hope their dogs would protect them, no matter how innocent or not the person "seems" to be. The key word is seems. Who knows maybe this woman would have turned psycho if she was told she couldn't pick berries on private propert that were obviously available on the property that wasn't private?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

yuriy said:


> That statement is based on a third-party's (obviously - and understandably - biased) account.
> 
> She may have yelled at the dogs.
> She may have waved her hands at the dogs.
> ...


So a happy loud child comes to door to selling cookies. 3 large dogs run out and nudge and circle kid. Kid gets scared, starts screaming and swatting at dogs to get them away. Is it now ok for dogs to attack? 

IMO the owner failed the dogs by allowing this to happen.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Saphire said:


> So a happy loud child comes to door to selling cookies. 3 large dogs run out and nudge and circle kid. Kid gets scared, starts screaming and swatting at dogs to get them away. Is it now ok for dogs to attack?
> 
> IMO the owner failed the dogs by allowing this to happen.


No, definitely not okay to attack the kid, but that is not what happened. It's a fairly reasonable analogy, but nothing more, and what-if games never help anything. In that scenario I'd hope the child wouldn't be walking around alone, and would have had a responsible parent with them to take appropriate measures.

What if (ironic use of words given the previous statement, I know) this wasn't a lady picking berries, but rather an armed robber? I'll bet the story would have been spun "heroic dogs save owners from attempted murder," despite exactly the same actions from the dogs.

For all we know there may have been twenty signs stating "GUARD DOGS, DO NOT TRESPASS" and the victim ignored them. Again, my whole point is that we have zero information on what actually happened. All we know for certain is that there's a lady in a hospital with a whole lot of stitches. That's it.

In an ideal world, the owner would have had the dogs in sight and under 100% control, but we don't live in an ideal world, and it's unrealistic to expect that when the dogs are on their owner's property.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The pictures show a fairly large property, the door was open, which means the dogs were probably going in and out. They didn't attack the woman as she picked berries along the property line, which they could of, but they didn't. When she approached the open door, did she put her head in the door and call out to someone? My guess is that she didn't knock on a door that was open? My guess would also be that something she did to get the owners attention did not sit well with the dogs. If they were so untrained they would have went for her wsy before she got to the door. 

There is just not enough info. The breed of dog in itself doesn't make sense to just attack. It's an isolated incident. I'm sure lots of other people have come to the same door without a problem, which makes me wonder what set the dogs off?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kid or adult, not ok. The owner of the three dogs ought to be charged criminally and the victim ought to be able to sue for damages. 

You cannot set up a trip wire so that your gun shoots a person who tries to walk up to your front door -- that is what is happening here. If she had to climb over a fence or unlock a gate to get into the yard, totally different story.

If I am walking down the street and I see a little kid get run over by a car that then drives off, and I do not have a phone, I am going to walk or run up the first driveway I come to, go to the front door and bang on it. And I may be frantic. Dogs should not be free to come and bite me for doing this. 

It does not matter if the woman wanted to ask to pick berries, or to invite you to Sunday services, or to use the phone to call 9-1-1 for the kid laying in the street. Your dogs cannot run out and chomp on people just because they are making their way to your front door.

If you want your dogs to have access to the outside, then fence your yard and lock your gate. Then if someone goes over your gate, that is on him. But you have to demonstrate some responsibility for your dogs, you have to keep the public safe to a reasonable degree.

We should all be mad as hornets at the dog owner here. These are the people who make renting with a GSD hard, who make buying homeowner's insurance difficult, who cause silly rules, like not allowing dogs at a farmer's market. We need to keep our own act squeaky clean, and we have to start smacking around people who act so irresponsibly with their dogs. The dog owner should be charged criminally, and everyone who uses their dog as a weapon against people who are not committing crimes needs to face serious charges. Leaving three formidable dogs to just start eating people who come to the front door? Next we will allow people to shoot people for walking up your driveway -- same thing.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> Kid or adult, not ok. The owner of the three dogs ought to be charged criminally and the victim ought to be able to sue for damages.
> 
> You cannot set up a trip wire so that your gun shoots a person who tries to walk up to your front door -- that is what is happening here. If she had to climb over a fence or unlock a gate to get into the yard, totally different story.
> 
> ...


How do we know there wasn't a gate? We don't. Looking at the pics the woman had to walk about 100ft or more to get permission to pick berries that were accessible off the road, that is odd in itself. These aren't GSDs, Rotts or dobes, they are newfies with no record. I myself was attacked by a Rott when I entered its property. It was completely my fault and if I didn't think fast and get away there is no way I would have blamed the owners, I entered that property and it wasn't mine. I would not expect someone to put there dog down because I didn't use common sense.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

yuriy said:


> That statement is based on a third-party's (obviously - and understandably - biased) account.
> 
> She may have yelled at the dogs.
> She may have waved her hands at the dogs.
> ...



Not a single one of your points indicates a reason to attack. Sorry. People can legally come to your front door without fear of being attacked. 

If there were signs and a gate, maybe they have a case. But if not, owner is in the wrong. Period. 

What if it had been a meter reader. They have the legal right to enter property and check the meter.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I agree. Without signs and a gate there is no excuse. I know a fellow who has a really rough dog. He had signs all over the place. He had cattle and the dog tore up a few folks trying to steal them. But,then it would be easy enough for a criminal to dispatch a dog so I don't know. I think I would have a camera system and do some free cookouts for the local sheriff.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

What I find strange is people asking what if it was the paper boy, or girlguide selling cookies.

Do people actually allow children to enter strangers properties these days. 

Is that safe? 

I though children are told to not talk m to strangers. I think some people want the present to be like the good ol days but it is not realistic at all.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Not a single one of your points indicates a reason to attack. Sorry. People can legally come to your front door without fear of being attacked.
> 
> If there were signs and a gate, maybe they have a case. But if not, owner is in the wrong. Period.
> ---
> ...


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

MadLab said:


> What I find strange is people asking what if it was the paper boy, or girlguide selling cookies.
> 
> Do people actually allow children to enter strangers properties these days.
> 
> ...


In this case, the article says the door was open and they dogs came out.

Here in Ontario, if anyone walks into your home invited or not and your dog's bites, your liable. If you have a sign that says "beware of dog", the courts say you knew you had an aggressive or dangerous dog. It's a no win soooo it's very important you know your dog's and prevent ANY bite. If you know your dog will bite someone for walking into your home, you keep your doors locked etc. I do have teens coming and going from my home, some Gus knows and somr he doesn't. Simply walking into my home is not a threat to him, nor I. The game changes if someone were to physically attack me. I have no doubt he would attack in that situation and for me that's an ok reaction I can and will live with. 

People 6 houses down from me were court ordered to have their lab pts after it attacked an intruder inside their home at 3 am. The attack gave the dad time to get his family out of the house and safe but the courts sided with the intruder. Dog was euthanized and scumbag intruder was awarded monetary damages for his sustained injuries. 

It's no longer about right or wrong. It's about keeping everyone safe.


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## MishkasMom (Aug 20, 2015)

Not excusing the owners responsibility of containing his dogs I think that that article has been made to look worse than it actually was. First of all they used the word "Mauled" not "Bitten" which I think they should use...if these dogs were in fact aggressive killers she wouldn't have only 40 stitches ( I had 25 when I feel off my bike ). We don't know the whole story, she said the dogs started "Nudging" her first...maybe she got scared and tried to kick at them hence the ankle bite...she can file a personal injury lawsuit and settle it in court but obviously if the dogs were not taken away the police didn't consider them a danger to others and there is no history of previous incidents.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm with the "not enough info." It looks to me like the place was fenced and secluded = and perhaps the woman was not well versed in how to respond to dogs. It shouldn't have happened. I have sympathy for the woman, sympathy for the dogs and their owner. 
I suspect that all of us have screwed up a time or two over the years. Most of our screw ups do not have this radical an outcome.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

A friend of mine has several GSDs. His neighbors son decided to attempt to rob him. He was in the yard half way over the fence with a GSD attached to each leg. The guy was arrested then tried to sue for damages, the judge threw it out of court. It really doesn't make sense that any court would award a judgement or order a dog put to sleep when there was any kind of crime at play.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

llombardo said:


> A friend of mine has several GSDs. His neighbors son decided to attempt to rob him. He was in the yard half way over the fence with a GSD attached to each leg. The guy was arrested then tried to sue for damages, the judge threw it out of court. It really doesn't make sense that any court would award a judgement or order a dog put to sleep when there was any kind of crime at play.


Ha! Come to Canada, you have no idea how soft we are on crime. Even better, how many rights our criminals have!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Not enough info. 

There just isn't enough information to make any type of judgment on the actions of the dogs. 

I don't understand an ankle bite with dogs that large. 

I don't understand why the owner would have their door open and their dogs didn't hear/see the person until they were peeking through the open door. 

I only hear one side of the story. Something isn't ringing true about it.


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## charger (Jan 29, 2008)

Saphire said:


> A woman walks to a house to ask permission to pick berries. Where is the threat?
> If my dog bites someone for walking up to my door to ask a question, he will be euthanized.


How is a dog supposed to know they just want to ask a question ? For all the dog knows they are an intruder, maybe to commit violence.
You would put your dog down if he mauled an intruder? ** comment removed by ADMIN, please be polite**


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## charger (Jan 29, 2008)

Saphire said:


> In this case, the article says the door was open and they dogs came out.
> 
> Here in Ontario, if anyone walks into your home invited or not and your dog's bites, your liable. If you have a sign that says "beware of dog", the courts say you knew you had an aggressive or dangerous dog. It's a no win soooo it's very important you know your dog's and prevent ANY bite. If you know your dog will bite someone for walking into your home, you keep your doors locked etc. I do have teens coming and going from my home, some Gus knows and somr he doesn't. Simply walking into my home is not a threat to him, nor I. The game changes if someone were to physically attack me. I have no doubt he would attack in that situation and for me that's an ok reaction I can and will live with.
> 
> ...



That's just wrong. Poor dog and poor owners. Victimized three times by a court who gave the criminals more rights than the victim!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

charger said:


> How is a dog supposed to know they just want to ask a question ? For all the dog knows they are an intruder, maybe to commit violence.
> You would put your dog down if he mauled an intruder?


Wow! So every person who comes to your door should be seen as an intruder who is about to rape and/or kill me? Better yet, I give my dog full permission to assume just that and attack anyone they deem a threat?

I do not allow my dog to make the decision that every person at my door must be destroyed because they MIGHT be dangerous! If I had an dog I felt made such inappropriate decisions (which I've had), the doors are locked so that innocent people are not hurt, EVER!

I honestly cannot believe so many people feel it's ok for their dog to feel threatened by a stranger at the door......THAT is stupid, very dangerous, and most of all over the top irresponsible. 

No wonder insurance and housing has become such an issue for those with large dogs.

It's sad so many make rediculous excuses for mismanaged and aggressive dogs!


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## charger (Jan 29, 2008)

Also if she saw three large dogs on the property, common sense should tell you they might, just might, be protective of their territory. 
Unfortunately common sense seems to be lacking in a lot of people.


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## charger (Jan 29, 2008)

Saphire said:


> Wow! So every person who comes to your door should be seen as an intruder who is about to rape and/or kill me? Better yet, I give my dog full permission to assume just that and attack anyone they deem a threat?
> 
> I do not allow my dog to make the decision that every person at my door must be destroyed because they MIGHT be dangerous! If I had an dog I felt made such inappropriate decisions (which I've had), the doors are locked so that innocent people are not hurt, EVER!
> 
> ...


What I'm saying is the dog should give a warning (barking). Don't get me wrong, I don't think the dogs should have attacked without warning.
But your statement that you would put your dog down even if it attacked an intruder protecting you is disappointing.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

charger said:


> What I'm saying is the dog should give a warning (barking). Don't get me wrong, I don't think the dogs should have attacked without warning.
> But your statement that you would put your dog down even if it attacked an intruder protecting you is disappointing.


I did not say this so you need to go back and read my posts on this thread. 

Below is what I said so please don't grossly twist my words in attempt to make me look insensitive or uncaring.


Saphire said:


> A woman walks to a house to ask permission to pick berries. Where is the threat?
> If my dog bites someone for walking up to my door to ask a question, he will be euthanized.


I guess it comes down to your definition of intruder. If my dog attacks someone for simply coming to my door, that is a huge problem a for me as that is NOT a realistic threat. If I owned a dog who displayed such reactions to a simple knock on the door, I would take measures to insure they could not injure innocent people. I have already described what I myself feel is acceptable in MY home. If someone comes into my home and physically attacks me I would be very ok with my dog attacking said person which I have clearly stated already and no I would not euthanize. I would understand why the dog felt the need to protect. 
It's not reasonable to allow dogs to feel every person at your door is a murderer and thereby go into attack mode IMO.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

charger said:


> How is a dog supposed to know they just want to ask a question ? For all the dog knows they are an intruder, maybe to commit violence.
> 
> You would put your dog down if he mauled an intruder?



No one said anything about putting a dog down for engaging an intruder. 

People, unless directed otherwise(via signage) should feel safe enough to knock on a front door. Dogs should not be loose and able to attack a common non threatening person. That's just dumb. 

People come to my door for a variety of reasons. 99.99% of the time they are harmless. A neighbor asking to borrow something, the pizza delivery man, meter reader, census taker, obnoxious religious prostolotisers, none of them deserve to be attacked. I may not like them(except pizza man), but they don't deserve to end up in hospital for coming to my door. 

Unless there was visible signage, this woman was not in the wrong. She was bitten by 3 very large dogs simply for walking towards a house. Either the dogs are not safe or the owner is a moron. 

I once found a Golden loose on my street. I had an idea where it lived. So I leashed it and walked it to its front door. It's housemates, all Goldens, were unhappy about me being there. They barked a bunch, circled a bit. No attack. That's normal. I was not a threat. Just a person going to a front door.


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## charger (Jan 29, 2008)

Saphire said:


> I did not say this so you need to go back and read my posts on this thread.
> 
> Below is what I said so please don't grossly twist my words in attempt to make me look insensitive or uncaring.
> 
> ...


My apologies, I did misread your post, sorry. But I still wouldn't put a dog down, unless it was as bad as this case or worse, but just a bite no.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Just saw the following headline on Reddit: "Women being attacked by dogs gets saved by a man with a shovel" 

And the video/image in question: https://i.imgur.com/Q0kdZfY.gifv

Headlines vs. reality.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

I really appreciate the replies everyone.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Maybe it can't happen in the US. But, folks, if we do not get smarter about how we manage dogs, if dog owners and fanciers do not get on owners who are irresponsible, we may find it so difficult to legally keep a dog that many of us will not be able to.

It can't go on indefinitely. 

I don't know that we can stop the average owners from doing really irresponsible things with their dogs, but we certainly do not need to condone these things here on the site. Lots of folks here like to suggest we are heads and shoulders above the average dog owner. I am not so sure. Yes, we are here discussing and hopefully learning about the breed and everything to do with dog ownership, which may give us a leg up. But sometimes the things I read on here, I think, if someone acts on that, acts that way, they aren't going to have a leg to stand on.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Our opinions don't matter. The law and the insurance companies matter. 

If this owner knew about the law (and they sure as heck should have) - it's negligence, end of story. I don't see how there is ever justification in a dog attack on a person unless they are threatening the owner, under the influence or their owner is down and they are defending from survival mode. 

When a dog - any breed - crosses over and attacks a human in anything but the above situations, this is negligence on the part of the owner. It is simply the dog owner's responsibility to TRAIN their dog to prevent or confine this from happening. If they know their dogs are either "naturally" tuned up to defend or trained to do so - there has to be a training cap and that's the only thing that will prevent this. They can bark, they can growl but they cannot revert and all rules are negated if a person simply crosses some magic line..... It is obvious these dogs were defending THEIR territory and that's never ok. It is very likely that protection of their human was not foremost but intrusion on their territory was the issue. 

If you have a dog that will bite a human that you knowingly don't train conditions into and just leave it at that - you are liable and should be held responsible - you only trained up to a point and then left it - a very dangerous situation and just plain stupid.


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## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

"One Bite Law" in Vermont
Why most Vermont dogs get 1 free bite - WCAX.COM Local Vermont News, Weather and Sports-


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is another element here that we are avoiding or not mentioning and that is pack behavior. With a pack of dogs, there is so much more likelihood that an incident will escalate, and of course, more damage will be done. 

A single dog will bark, and maybe circle someone, but, unless the dog is truly aggressive/territorial, it is unlikely to bite someone who is not attacking them or their people. But a pack of dogs feed off of each other, and increase the fear of the human. It is so easy for a group of dogs to go awry. 

The point is, if you have a pack, make sure they are contained. Because if someone does come up the drive/walk to the front, it only takes the least of the dogs, the weakest of the dogs to react, and the chances are really good at that point, more than one dog is going to be in on it. Probably all of them.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

selzer said:


> There is another element here that we are avoiding or not mentioning and that is pack behavior. With a pack of dogs, there is so much more likelihood that an incident will escalate, and of course, more damage will be done.
> 
> A single dog will bark, and maybe circle someone, but, unless the dog is truly aggressive/territorial, it is unlikely to bite someone who is not attacking them or their people. But a pack of dogs feed off of each other, and increase the fear of the human. It is so easy for a group of dogs to go awry.
> 
> The point is, if you have a pack, make sure they are contained. Because if someone does come up the drive/walk to the front, it only takes the least of the dogs, the weakest of the dogs to react, and the chances are really good at that point, more than one dog is going to be in on it. Probably all of them.



Exactly. When I was attacked by the two Pitts - their method was one would threaten from the front and the other would try to get around behind me to attempt hamstring (rear ankle bite) which would have brought me down. I turned so many times to keep that SOB from getting at my ankle... that's all he was focused on. This is natural for multiple dogs when hunting a larger prey animal. Certainly not a sign of defending an owner or belongings.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

The pack mentality makes much sense. I hope the owner of these dogs learns to close and lock her front door. She needs to put up a locked fence not making her property easily accessible to anyone.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, not that I'm excusing the attack, but the woman must have known they had dogs and the door were open. If she wanted something from the owner, she needs to call him ahead of time and simply ask him over the phone. If the owner said come on over THEN the dogs attacked------


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Nikitta said:


> Well, not that I'm excusing the attack, but the woman must have known they had dogs and the door were open. If she wanted something from the owner, she needs to call him ahead of time or simply ask him over the phone. If the owner said come on over THEN the dogs attacked------


This is what causes the problem... they should have known.... It is the same as if you had no animals and caught someone walking on your property and took an axe to them. You are responsible for those animals owned by you.

Should everyone know - without "no trespassing signs" - that to set one foot on another's property could mean death? Who lives like that?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Is it known for sure that there was no fence and no signs? That seems to me to be a major sticking point. I am also curious, as other posters have asked, where the owner was during the attack.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Does this change anyone's opinion? 


http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/...2/jericho-dog-attack-prompts-debate/71609838/


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## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

Unfortunately the law is on the dog owner's side be it right or wrong.Society has changed,I guess its changed to the point that we all need to stay within our own boundary lines.A very innocent act turned tragic all because someone wanted to ask permission.I still wonder if signs were on the fence.... But I personally would not go thru someones closed fenced yard.And once again it shows the invisable fencing may keep your dogs in....but it can't keep trouble out.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

"Magnant said in order for a crime to have been committed on the property of a dog owner, the owner must order the dog to attack."

This comment from police shocks me.

I think if there were signs, it would say so in this article as the home owners have responded. Invisible fencing is for the dogs, not people. It does say there is a physical fence but it's obviously not around the entire property or you wouldn't need the invisible fencing. 

Sad case all around. Injured and traumatized lady, dogs with bite history and owners who continue to justify their dogs actions. "They were sleeping".


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Saphire said:


> Does this change anyone's opinion?
> 
> 
> Dog attack prompts debate, law questions


Nope. There was an invisible fence and a regular fence...it CLEARLY states the actual fence surrounds the WHOLE property.

Kathleen Casey, the owner of the dogs, said her family believes the attack was horrible, but Bugbee was trespassing on their property. Casey said in addition to the invisible fence, a physical fence surrounds the five-acre property.
"This individual whom we have never met came onto our private road," Casey said. "Our family dogs who were sleeping in the house ran out through the open door towards the uninvited trespasser."


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## 3dogcrew (Apr 23, 2006)

The Vermont Statutes Online
Title 13 : Crimes And Criminal Procedure

Chapter 081 : Trespass And Malicious Injuries To Property

Subchapter 001 : Injuries To Buildings And Their Appurtenances

§ 3705. Unlawful trespass

(a)(1) A person shall be imprisoned for not more than three months or fined not more than $500.00, or both, if, without legal authority or the consent of the person in lawful possession, he or she enters or remains on any land or in any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:

(A) actual communication by the person in lawful possession or his or her agent or by a law enforcement officer acting on behalf of such person or his or her agent;

(B) signs or placards so designed and situated as to give reasonable notice; or

(C) in the case of abandoned property:

(i) signs or placards, posted by the owner, the owner's agent, or a law enforcement officer, and so designed and situated as to give reasonable notice; or

(ii) actual communication by a law enforcement officer.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

3dogcrew said:


> The Vermont Statutes Online
> Title 13 : Crimes And Criminal Procedure
> 
> Chapter 081 : Trespass And Malicious Injuries To Property
> ...


Odd that fencing isn't on that list ?


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

Saphire said:


> In this case, the article says the door was open and they dogs came out.
> 
> Here in Ontario, if anyone walks into your home invited or not and your dog's bites, your liable. If you have a sign that says "beware of dog", the courts say you knew you had an aggressive or dangerous dog. It's a no win soooo it's very important you know your dog's and prevent ANY bite. If you know your dog will bite someone for walking into your home, you keep your doors locked etc. I do have teens coming and going from my home, some Gus knows and somr he doesn't. Simply walking into my home is not a threat to him, nor I. The game changes if someone were to physically attack me. I have no doubt he would attack in that situation and for me that's an ok reaction I can and will live with.
> 
> ...












There must be more to it if they were forced to put the dog down. This is ontario law


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I agree ... I live in Ottawa, and I've spoken to some of my police friends - Kyleigh is VERY alert to strangers coming on to the property, and quite frankly I have no clue what she would do if someone broke into the house - I know she goes ape poop when someone tries to come into the back yard (it's a 6-foot fence, and LOCKED at all times).

My cop friends told me flat out that if someone broke into my house and she bit them (not killed them) but bit them to "protect" me, then she would not be put down. 

All I would have to say is that they were coming after me, and she did what "most" dogs would do. You stretch the truth a tad (because in all seriousness, if someone is breaking into your house in the wee hours of the morning, they aren't coming for tea!)

Canada and the US have RADICALLY DIFFERENT LAWS and opinions on protection and property. I've been lucky and haven't had anything happen to me like this, but I have to admit, some of the responses I see from some people about protecting their property scares the poop out of me! Personally, if someone was breaking into my house, I'd grab the dog and run out the back door. That's what insurance is for. 

I would rather keep myself and my dog safe, and simply replace whatever the heck it is they stole.


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

I have my trusty baseball bat with a couple nails poking out, thankfully being in Canada it is like a 1 in a 100,000 chance whoever is breaking into my house has a gun and has the balls to use it. So, I would say my baseball bat will suffice. Also, sorry about the massive picture.. still haven't figured out this picture thing yet.. blegh.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

amburger16 said:


> There must be more to it if they were forced to put the dog down. This is ontario law


Of course there is. They said the owner did not have control of his dog. The damage exceeded a dog under control. The onus is on the owner to prove lives were in danger. Who has the better lawyer.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

In Canada the onus is on you to prove the intruder was going to harm or kill you if you use excessive force or kill.


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## jschrest (Jun 16, 2015)

I have a very fear aggressive dog that is VERY territorial about "her" property. She will go for someone that walks into my backyard. She gives warning signs, but still. If someone were to walk into my backyard, she would attack. Knowing this, I have warning signs (attack dog on premises) posted on all my gates, and have padlocks on them as well, so no one can open my gates and gain access to my backyard. If they chose not to heed those warnings, there isn't much I can do about it. She isn't left in the yard, I have doggy doors, so she can come in and out at will. I called my local electrical department and let them know there is an aggressive dog on property, and they "scope" my meter. Meaning they read it from their truck with binoculars. 

Obviously, I would be crushed if she did injure someone on my property, but I have taken all the precautions I can. And yes, she is being worked with a trainer to try and break her of her issues that are quite severe. 

My point is, some dogs are not welcoming to strangers entering their territory. Looks like a remote area, and probably why they have the dogs to begin with. If they had posted signs (Beware of dog, etc) and the woman chose to enter anyways, she did at her own risk. If no signs were posted, the owners could be liable. 

As others have stated, no one knows what the woman did when she did enter. I would never enter a perfect strangers fenced in yard to ask to pick berries. From the video, the house is quite a distance from the fence line. I'm sure she the woman had some knowledge or warning that dogs were there before she got near the house. Again, I definitely wouldn't enter a strangers yard, with strange dogs, to ask to pick berries. 

Until I hear both sides (from the actual woman attacked, not her daughter) and the owner of the dogs, I have to side with the city here.


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## amburger16 (May 22, 2015)

The onus is ludicrous.. yay canada. If someone breaks into my house, I'm supposed to keep my dog under control until the intruder comes after me? I'm supposed to put myself in harms way in order to protect my dog from the courts when my dog could of had the situation dealt with before it started.. The government wants me to protect someone that has invited themselves into my house while I am sleeping to steal from me or hurt me.. I guess I'll just break their legs myself, since here in Canada we protect criminals I shouldn't get much more then a weapons ban and probation. 

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I still feel kind of on the fence about this one. I hate to hear of anyone being hurt, but I don't think it was very wise to go through a gate into a yard of someone you don't know. On the other hand, the owner could have posted signs and even kept the gate locked if he suspected his dogs were aggressive. I guess maybe I think there is enough blame to go around.

My neighbor's kids had gotten used to going in and out of my yard to get the power mower to cut the grass, etc. I have never minded, but it obviously was on my mind when I chose Newlie. Luckily, he turned out to be as the rescue described him, except for his age. He knows the kids and is good with them. He is still behind a 6 foot gate, though, with signs posted that simply say "German Shepherd Xing." 

He has never shown any aggression toward any person, period. But I sure would not want someone he didn't know to walk through the gate without me being with them. I wouldn't want anyone to take that kind of chance...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the lady had to go through a latched gate or climb over a fence, I think her fault.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

selzer said:


> If the lady had to go through a latched gate or climb over a fence, I think her fault.


I would agree but if they have a fully fenced property with gates, why have invisible fencing?


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Saphire said:


> I would agree but if they have a fully fenced property with gates, why have invisible fencing?


5 acres is a lot of land. 

Perhaps they want the dogs to stay within earshot/eyesight. Perhaps they don't want dogs going after any wildlife that may pass through the property. Perhaps the neighbours don't like having dogs near the fence lines. Perhaps there's mud or other debris that they want to keep the dogs out of. Perhaps the dogs are being trained to respect invisible boundaries that could then be used in other locations. Perhaps there are holes in the fencing through which the dogs could escape. 

Who knows why, there could be many reasons.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Usually when people reach middle age, they acquire enough wisdom to not climb over fences or open gates that are secure to go through them. Usually. 

Maybe the invisible fences work so well that the owners are less than diligent about their outer fencing/gates.

Maybe when you have 5 acres, you could make your invisible fence/dog area be such that it allows people to reach your front steps/door without being molested.


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## Amshru (Aug 7, 2015)

I recently had an adventure when delivering leaflets on behalf of our community group. I opened a gate into the driveway of a rural property, walked towards the house and was greeted by three dogs. When I knocked on the front door, the owner was amazed that the dogs had "let me through". Apparently they were supposed to deter any visitors from approaching. It did lead to an interesting discussion about dogs and their triggers, but afterwards, I reflected that it might not have been the smartest thing to do!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My dogs are behind locked gates with signs that say no trespassing, private property, and dog on premises. I don't know that I could make it any clearer not to come in the yard. I even moved the fence line so the gas meter was on the outside. Yet my one not do smart and kinda creepy neighbor decided to stand on the fence and scream to me. I'm not sure why he wouldn't go to the front door? On most days my back door is open and the dogs are in and out. Well he will never do that again. Midnite has a great temperament but he did not approve the neighbor coming over like that and he did charge at the fence in a very protective manner. I heard a thump and an oh poop...the neighbor has never done that again.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

it says there is a physical fence, it doesn't say what KIND of fence. Was it a split rail fence? A barbed wire fence? A chain link fence?


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

This is not meant in any way to beat on the poor lady, it's just a thought I had. I read somewhere that dogs often read fear as aggression and I just wondered if she was a person normally afraid of dogs. I mean, it would be disconcerting for anyone to be approached by several big dogs, maybe barking and growling, but for someone who was fearful of dogs anyway? People can't help it if they are afraid of something, but I suppose it's possible that it might have been a trigger.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Anyone familiar with this area of Vermont? I am. And, no, I wouldn't be going door to door to make house-calls to people I didn't know.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I knock on front doors. 

I saw someone's horses in the road, and knocked on some doors to find their owner. 

I ran my car into a ditch and I knocked on a front door to use their phone.

I saw some beagle dragging a chain and I caught the dog and took it to someone's door to ask if it was theirs. They didn't have a phone though, Amish. But even if they did, without knowing their name, how would I call them?

I heard someone's smoke alarm going, and I banged on their door. Not getting an answer, I called the fire department.

I saw someone's dog in the road. I stopped my car. The other dog was in the house, but they had knocked out the screen and they were going in and out through the window. I banged on the door. But the people weren't home. Fortunately, the owners got there before the police. 

People should be able to access your front door.


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## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

my neighbor down the road has goats; one day they broke through the fence and were on the road, so I pulled into the driveway and went to knock on the front door. on top of the hill was a huge rottie; he let out a few low barks and came barreling towards me, I think I wet my draws, never in my life have I ran so quickly. I knew if he caught up to me I would have been bitten. I was so relieved to get into my car and I tore out of the driveway, with the dog running after my car, he stopped at the property line . I never knew this farmer had a dog, never saw it, always saw the horses goats sheep, etc. he has about 50 acres, so lots of property for the dog to patrol. I cant say I would blame the dog for being aggressive for trespassing on his property, especially in a rural area


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> my neighbor down the road has goats; one day they broke through the fence and were on the road, so I pulled into the driveway and went to knock on the front door. on top of the hill was a huge rottie; he let out a few low barks and came barreling towards me, I think I wet my draws, never in my life have I ran so quickly. I knew if he caught up to me I would have been bitten. I was so relieved to get into my car and I tore out of the driveway, with the dog running after my car, he stopped at the property line . I never knew this farmer had a dog, never saw it, always saw the horses goats sheep, etc. he has about 50 acres, so lots of property for the dog to patrol. I cant say I would blame the dog for being aggressive for trespassing on his property, especially in a rural area


I agree. I had a Rott come after me too on its property. If I got bit I would be to blame and I wouldn't dream of demanding the dog being destroyed. I wouldn't even expect medical paid, I was on private property.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I get bit on someone's property, in the drive or walk, on route to the front door, someone is getting sued. And I don't care if it is a farmer or a police officer with a k9 or a little ankle biter. Access to someone's front door should be a given, unless there are locked gates and fencing around.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

I can understand both points of view.

Legalities aside, personally, I don't see why someone should have a _right_ to access my front door. It's definitely a social norm, but private property is private property, and if I buy a chunk of land and build a house in the deepest, darkest corner, that's probably not because I'm a social butterfly waiting on this week's girl scout cookies. 

I would imagine that people living on large pieces of land value their privacy, and respecting that should be important to anyone thinking of setting foot on their property. 

If I'm in my (private) car, no one has a _right_ to come into that car to talk to me just because they want to. The car is mine, it is private property, and people respect that bubble. Land is obviously treated differently, but nonetheless, I think this analogy is fairly reasonable.

It's definitely an interesting topic to discuss (under better circumstances).


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Saphire said:


> People 6 houses down from me were court ordered to have their lab pts after it attacked an intruder inside their home at 3 am. The attack gave the dad time to get his family out of the house and safe but the courts sided with the intruder. Dog was euthanized and scumbag intruder was awarded monetary damages for his sustained injuries.
> 
> It's no longer about right or wrong. It's about keeping everyone safe.


That is not only unjust, it's freaking insane! I'm speechless on this one!

The subject matter of the thread same old thing..."control your freaking dog" ...problem solved!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> If I get bit on someone's property, in the drive or walk, on route to the front door, someone is getting sued. And I don't care if it is a farmer or a police officer with a k9 or a little ankle biter. Access to someone's front door should be a given, unless there are locked gates and fencing around.


If I have a no soliciting sign, no one can come to my door to sell me something(kid or not) or preach. Add my no trespassing sign to that with or without a gate, people are not allowed on my property without my consent. Let's go ahead and add the private property sign just to make sure. I do have all these signs personally and people walk right on by. Unless you are a mailman, fire man or police man then you(general you) have no right to be on my property period. Take me to court and I am willing to bet the judge asks if your(general you)blind. Simple signs make a world of difference. Laws might differ in different areas, but they protect me in my area. I would have a field day in court with someone if they tried suing me for being on my property. i pay a pretty penny for taxes and is my property. If you(general) weren't invited then you(general) have no reason to be there.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

actually, there are very strict rules in most areas about no trespassing signs. How many there are, at what height they are posted, how many feet apart the signs must be placed along the property line, etc etc

and, again, there is a legal responsibility that allows people to approach your front door without harm. It must be accessible to police and emergency personnel, utility workers and others who may have to access your property in fulfilling their jobs.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

To be honest, if I want to be that much of a recluse and barracade myself into my home and property, Yep its my right. I would post the signs everywhere, 100% fenced yard with locks and when I die in my castle, my dogs will eat me and then starve and/or be killed by someone trying to save my bones days, weeks or months later.

That works.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"Unless you are a mailman, fire man or police man then you(general you) have no right to be on my property period"

and your dog would know them how?

if you didn't (general you) have a dog to secure your fortress then would it be okay to shoot a gun through the door? It has happened .


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

In some places people will take shots at you for trespassing. I've worked in areas where you DID NOT trespass on someone's property because they would set the hounds on you and the shotgun-toting yahoo, too. 

I have no idea whether it was legal or not. I do know that I wasn't going to take any chances and made sure my maps and GPS were up to date. 
This wasn't suburban America, this was very rural America where people still had hounds under the porch and where strangers were not welcome. 

I'm not advocating for this kind of behavior. And I don't live this way myself, nor do I plan to. But, in that are of the country I didn't go knocking on random doors and respected private property by staying off.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I live in the sticks. Very rural Ohio. Yep, I have only an acre, but there is county property behind me and farms on the other side of the road. And I will walk up to someone's front door, bang on it, and ask them if they have seen my dog -- no problem. 

We can buy a piece of property and try and seclude ourselves from the world. But it doesn't stop the world from going around. And the little kid falls off his bike in the road in front of your house, and needs assistance, but he better not go and bang on your door, because your dogs do not recognize him as a policeman, fireman or EMT. 

It is nuts. If you are that rich and that reclusive, than put a huge gate around your land and lock it, not allowing entry. 

Trespassing is when you walk over private property, camp on private property, swim in a pond on private property, walk through the fields, or buildings. It does not mean going in a direct route to the front door to ask a question of the homeowner. If you were berry picking and saw a no-tresspasing sign, then you might save yourself a trip to the front door, expecting the answer to your quarry to be a negative. But trespassing in general is not walking up to the front door. 

It really isn't that easy to completely shun the outside world. You pay property taxes, sure, but that does not give you the right to shoot any human that gets on your property. Sorry. I think you have to set up your own little country for that kind of power. Good luck with that.


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