# Black & Tan the same as Black & Red?



## monster (Aug 16, 2015)

In the case of genetics, is black & tan the same as black & red? When I've looked at the gene charts where coat color is predicted, I don't see an option to input black & red. The other combinations are there such as sable or all black. I'm guessing the genes are so similar that they're considered the same? The only reason I ask is if one were to mate a black & tan with a black & red, what would be the predicted outcome? Maybe I missed something, most of the genetic discussion goes over my head.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it is black and tan .

schwarz / braun 

the tan has a range from mahogany to sand colour and everything in between


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## Ken Clean-Air System (Feb 27, 2012)

As Carmen said, it's all black and tan (brown). The actual shade of brown is dependent on pigmentation. There, from my understanding, are 4 color types possible by genetics. From most dominant to most recessive, they are - Sable, black and tan, bi-color, and black. Then there is white which is really just a gene that masks all color, not really a distinct color.

Two black and tan dogs can produce black and tan, bi-color or black puppies, depending on whether the parents carry black or bi-color recessive genes.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

asw others have said, "red" vs "tan" is genetically all tan on the color spectrum. A separate gene affects intensity of color, giving that difference between "red" "tan" "light cream"

Also, in many cases, red vs tan is a matter of opinion. Where exactly does a deep tan change to red? And what was registered as a black/tan puppy may mature into a dog with a deeper pigmentation. Intensity can also be affected to some degree by diet and environment as well as genetics.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is an excellent thread started by Cliff http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html to which I am adding a new link --
this thread has been on the shelf and has gathered dust for some time - but it needs to be out there for new sets of eyes 

it will give you a historical background on the influence of Wienerau -- the appearance of this "red" colour and the emergence and then focused genetic selection for that version of red colouration -- from a female with sharp undesirable temperament -- embedded into a line of dogs temperamentally weak and flawed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

red sells -- it keeps the breeders in the black .


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## monster (Aug 16, 2015)

Thank you all for the clarification. I have a tendency to see what I want to see and miss things from time to time. I have a black & tan female that I would love a whole pack of pups from if I was guaranteed they'd all act like her and have her temperament and smarts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here you go "monster"

this is the dog responsible for the deep red
"Another Wienerau dog Berta Lorscher Sand Progency list for V Berta vom Lorscher Sand - German Shepherd Dog had temperament problems BUT and AND she produced that red pigment


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Weren't some Germans also feeding a carrot supplement at some point and of course Photoshop can do wonders with those Urma pics.


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