# Would you breed a dog with fear of thunder?



## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

Does a fear of thunderstorms = weak nerves in a dog?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would think so!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

No way!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

LuvWorkingGSDs said:


> Does a fear of thunderstorms = weak nerves in a dog?


Yes, it does.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

My "i would think so
was "does it = weak nerves" not "would you breed a dog"
I just realized that you asked two different questions.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I think it does indicate weak nerves.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Uh, N-O.

Sound issues = weak nerves!


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

luvworkinggsds said:


> does a fear of thunderstorms = weak nerves in a dog?


yes


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## heatherr (Jun 5, 2010)

I would not breed a dog with fear of thunderstorms.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What would the dog do if it was out to pasture with the sheep and a storm with Thunder occurs????? I don't think Shepherds were looking for that type of dog to promulgate the breed.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

I'm curious as to why you're asking.


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## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

GSDElsa said:


> Uh, N-O.
> 
> Sound issues = weak nerves!


What about a dog that has no sound sensitivies except for thunderstorms? (suggesting perhaps that it is the change in barometric pressure)


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> What would the dog do if it was out to pasture with the sheep and a storm with Thunder occurs????? I don't think Shepherds were looking for that type of dog to promulgate the breed.


Or barometric pressure!

Or wind! 

Or Super Moon! 



Sorry - just being a smarty pants. Not the kind of dog that is fun to live with either. Having had a couple of mixes who could tell too many things like some supersensitive grandma sittin' on her porch.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Did you attempt to teach him to not fear thunder? My dog was afraid of fireworks but I attributed that to the fact they were very close and she was a puppy. So I took her to where she could see/hear them going off and that was that, no more problem. If one does
go off she will bark an alarm but then stop. She was afraid of thunder as a pup but we went to the slider and watched the storm ....... and that was the end of that. Same problem with my last dog (non-GSD). It got so she HAD to go and watch any thunder storm, probably a control issue.
So, I guess I have a question: Is overcoming 'weak' nerves a sign of strong nerves?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Weak nerves are weak nerves...dogs can be conditioned to tolerate various degrees of adversity....but put under stress the problem will usually surface. If a noise sensitive dog has been conditioned, a good trainer or breeder(afterall if a good breeder can't tell training from genetics then they will breed animals with issues, that have been hidden, from their inexperienced eye) will be able to see the lack of security in the dog even though they may be conditioned to function.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

NEVER - 
Carmen


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

And usually the dogs that are afraid of Thunder are dogs that will show that "worried" look will it is cracking. Now if a person breeds a lot with the worried look or Thunder phobia.....is that as bas as breeding a dog with a dyplastic parent????


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

No for breeding. Not only weak nerves, but because that is a trait with a high heredability.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

no i would NEVER breed a dog with any sounds issues. Not a dog i would want puppies from.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

LuvWorkingGSDs said:


> What about a dog that has no sound sensitivies except for thunderstorms? (suggesting perhaps that it is the change in barometric pressure)


Suggesting perhaps being the operative word here. If it is a change in the pressure thunderstorms would not be the only time the dog showed a sensitivity. Either way...a dog THAT sensitive should not be bred imo. Sound sensitivities can be tricky because one can always condition. So how do you really test that theory? There is no way.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Now if a person breeds a lot with the worried look or Thunder phobia.....is that as bas as breeding a dog with a dyplastic parent????


IMO, weak nerves are generally worse than HD. And I'm not sure, but I suspect they might be more heritable, ie I think you might get more decent hips from parent(s) with bad hips than good nerves from parent(s) with bad nerves. IF the bitch has faulty nerves, you can get the double whammy of environmental influences as well, since she carries, whelps & then raises 'em for ~8wks or more. IF she's nervous, fearful or inappropriately aggressive the pups could be picking up on this behavior at an impressionable age.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

GSDElsa said:


> Suggesting perhaps being the operative word here. If it is a change in the pressure thunderstorms would not be the only time the dog showed a sensitivity. Either way...a dog THAT sensitive should not be bred imo. Sound sensitivities can be tricky because one can always condition. So how do you really test that theory? There is no way.


Puppies born with good nerve and no sound sensitivity will show this nerve strenght even as a very young pup - before any counterconditioning has had a chance to occur. Breeders who do puppy testing at 7 weeks can tell which pups are solid with no sound sensitivity issues, and which ones may have nerve issues.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

^^ Agree with Ruby about weak nerves being worse than HD, or most anything else.

As to the original question of breeding a dog with thunderstorm phobia, no I would not.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Puppies born with good nerve and no sound sensitivity will show this nerve strenght even as a very young pup - before any counterconditioning has had a chance to occur. Breeders who do puppy testing at 7 weeks can tell which pups are solid with no sound sensitivity issues, and which ones may have nerve issues.


Yeah, I know. I was trying to say that how do you KNOW an adult that doesn't show any other alleged "sound sensitivities" truly doesn't have any because of counterconditioning. Like "gee, Fido freaks at the thunderstorm, but not pots and pans crashing about or our neighbors Harley going by. So it must not be a sound issue."

When in fact these are just daily occurances and the dog is used to them.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I don't know how you'd tell the difference my aussie is a pretty soft girl, and is very noise sensitive, not only Tstorms, but gun shots, she freaks when the satellite tv goes a little whacky, fireworks, , if I dropped a pot, she'd take off, but recovers pretty quickly from things like that,, her mom is the SAME way.

Masi on the other hand, you could light off an atom bomb and she wouldn't budge, she WANTS to be out in TStorms (doesn't happen , any type of loud, or new noises don't affect her at all, she may be curious as to what it is, but that's about it.

I WOULD rather have a dog with bad hips, vs weak nerves and/or noise sensitivity..I swear one day my aussie is going to have herself a heart attack


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I WOULD rather have a dog with bad hips, vs weak nerves and/or noise sensitivity..I swear one day my aussie is going to have herself a heart attack


Agreed! (not that it should give breeders and excuse to do either).

I've got one of those right now. Mild to moderate HD in one hip, but nerves of steel (for the most part). NO noise sensitivity AT ALL. Like Masi it would take heaven and earth colliding to get her to pay much attention to a bang or a boom.

A lot of HD issues can be managed with a daily supplement. Weak nerves are a 24/7 issue.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Onyx was never fearful of storms until Kacie came to live with us. Kacie was a chained out dog before I adopted her, and is storm fearful.
Onyx saw her reaction and decided she should act that way too.
They don't get crazy, just cling to me during storms, show anxiety. 
We had a few T-storms go thru yesterday and during one of them, the dogs showed no reaction at all. 
I agree with Ruby Tuesday, too. Weak nerves are harder to manage day to day than HD.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Jane, I always worry about that One of my previous gsd's was also noise phobic, when I got Sami, I was worried she would follow in his footsteps, nope didn' t happen, then Dodge came along, nope didn't happen with him either...Then Jynx, (an the noise phobic gsd was still here, Kodi)..While she probably had a perpensity(sp) for it, her's kicked in when she was around 3. 

Kodi has passed, and the two others (Jag aussie & Masi) thank goodness, have shown no signs of following in Jynx's footsteps..(thank you god 

So while i do agree dogs can pick up on each others behaviors, thank goodness it hasn't happened around here Dealing with one dog who is terrified of Tstorms espec, is enough..(melatonin chills her out somewhat


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I used to think that dogs are afraid of the vet because their owners exude fear or anxiety when they are there. I mean I can take Cujo to the vet and he is fine the whole time. My Dad takes him and he cowers there. I thought the same was true about noise phobias, but I do not think so because I am deathly afraid of lightning and thunder storms, and none of my dogs are afraid at all. Weird because dogs often feed off of our strong emotions. Noise phobias seem to come from within, while other fearful behavior seems to be more easily influenced by outside sources.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

Something weird about Rosa, thunderstorms make her clingy and whiny, but the gunshots from the Rod and Gun club next door (I swear they have a cannon down there) don't scare her. Both dogs listen to the shots, and usually it's a lot like someone has a semi-automatic, but neither of them seem to think it's anything worth worrying about.

And just to one-up everyone on this thread, I have a thunder-phobic with severe HD.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No, I would not breed a GSD with sound sensitivities (thunder, fireworks, gun) because yes, I do think it indicates weak nerve and at least to me is not desirable. I don't care whether it is the change in pressure or the smell of gun powder that sets the dog off, either way not acceptable to me for a dog that should have sound nerve in order to be a working dog. A dog must work in thunder, under gun fire, etc. As Ruby is saying a dog with such sensitivities is basically useless as a working dog while a dog without them can work for a decade with mild HD (not saying HD is OK but it's a fair point).


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

What about the dog who is fine with gunshots and thunder in his younger days but around age 5-6 becomes afraid of thunderstorms (but not gunshots)? 

Apparently that late-onset thunderstorm fear is not unusual. In that case, I'm not sure whether it's genetic or learned.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> What about the dog who is fine with gunshots and thunder in his younger days but around age 5-6 becomes afraid of thunderstorms (but not gunshots)?
> 
> Apparently that late-onset thunderstorm fear is not unusual. In that case, I'm not sure whether it's genetic or learned.


My mother has managed to make every dog she comes in contact with, afraid of thunderstorms... No matter their age or nerve.... which is why I think fear of thunderstorms are a nurture as opposed to nature.
If I were ever at their house (and allowed to bring my dogs to their house), I'd rather tie them up outside than expose them to the brainwashing production she puts on each time. It makes ME nervous!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

BlackthornGSD said:


> What about the dog who is fine with gunshots and thunder in his younger days but around age 5-6 becomes afraid of thunderstorms (but not gunshots)?
> 
> Apparently that late-onset thunderstorm fear is not unusual. In that case, I'm not sure whether it's genetic or learned.


Different with dogs, but by five or six if you haven't bred your bitch, and you still intend to, then I would not, even with a late onset like that. 

I do not know how true this is, just a theory, but thunder storms do have some change in barometer, and siezure dogs often have issues with changes such as that. Perhaps a late onset sensitivity to thunderstorms is actually indicative of other physical problems.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I did have a bitch who became afraid of storms at an older age--in her case, around age 9 or so. As a young dog, no problems. Never any issues with gunshots.

But I think there were a couple of times she was outside in the yard (while I was at work) during some really nasty thunderstorms (and we get some bad ones here in Virginia). So, as an older dog, she was definitely worried and unhappy during storms. In her case, it's possible she witnessed some hail or broken branches or even nearby lightning strikes--it's hard to know, though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is why Kacie is afraid. She was chained out her first 21 months and probably just had some steps from the mobile home as her shelter. I don't blame her at all!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

selzer said:


> Perhaps a late onset sensitivity to thunderstorms is actually indicative of other physical problems.


Could be. My Coke (mutt) is 4.5 yrs old and has only just recently become sensitive to storms and fireworks. A few people suggested I get his thyroid checked. There could very well be physical problems that are the root cause of certain sensitivities, especially ones that develop with age, but I'm not sure I'd want to be breeding that either.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Liesje said:


> A dog must work in thunder, under gun fire, etc. As Ruby is saying a dog with such sensitivities is basically useless as a working dog while a dog without them can work for a decade with mild HD (not saying HD is OK but it's a fair point).


 I think it depends on the degree and the dog's temperament overall. I know someone who has a GSD with serious thunder phobia (as in the dog has to be sedated and still becomes extremely panicked) - that IMO is unacceptable to breed. OTOH a dog who becomes somewhat anxious during storms but in all other ways is sound and will work during storms could be a different story. I have known dogs who had such great work ethic that even though they were afraid of storms, they would work regardless and had no other sound sensitivity issues. IME storm sensitivity and sound sensitivity don't always go together.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess if I had to have one, I'd rather have sound sensitivity than storm sensitivity because I can control and manage sounds (like guns) but not storms. I wouldn't necessarily return or rehome a dog with either, but I personally wouldn't breed one or buy one with either.


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## LuvWorkingGSDs (Aug 24, 2008)

GSDGunner said:


> I'm curious as to why you're asking.


 
Because I enjoy a good discussion and value the insight that many of the breeders here so generously share. I'm not looking to breed either of my neutered animals if that's what you are wondering about. 

The topic came up with an acquaintance at a dog event this past weekend. I was talking schutzhund with a lady who plans on breeding her male, since it would be a shame not to pass along his 'good genes'.  Later, the topic of thunder phobia came up and she mentioned her dog is fearful of thunderstorms. 

I was surprised to hear this since the dog has a BH and trains in schutzhund. She argued that her dog was strong nerved and not sound sensitive since he can ignore gun-shots....and well, I just kind of smiled and held my tongue since I don't have the experience/dogs to back me up yet. 

I have no doubts about thunder phobia being directly linked to weak nerves and would never have considered breeding such an animal. I was just somewhat surprised to meet someone who trains schutzhund with a thunder phobic dog. Of course, I have never seen this dog worked, which might be quite revealing...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I know of a dog that became "thunderstorm/lightening" sensitive, only after lightening struck very close to his kennel..(_causing the shed to catch fire)...._he was almost 4yrs old at the time.
Dog never displayed ANY signs of "noise sensitivity" until that day.....
Since then....he shows signs of anxiety..(_not to the point of extreme, but still noticeable)_ in lightening storms or loud explosives.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Since then....he shows signs of anxiety..(_not to the point of extreme, but still noticeable)_ in lightening storms or loud explosives.


Sounds to me like that's one of those things that even the best nerves couldn't shake. I certainly wouldn't claim that as unusual or unfair.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Jane, I always worry about that One of my previous gsd's was also noise phobic, when I got Sami, I was worried she would follow in his footsteps, nope didn' t happen, then Dodge came along, nope didn't happen with him either...Then Jynx, (an the noise phobic gsd was still here, Kodi)..While she probably had a perpensity(sp) for it, her's kicked in when she was around 3.
> 
> Kodi has passed, and the two others (Jag aussie & Masi) thank goodness, have shown no signs of following in Jynx's footsteps..(thank you god
> 
> So while i do agree dogs can pick up on each others behaviors, thank goodness it hasn't happened around here Dealing with one dog who is terrified of Tstorms espec, is enough..(melatonin chills her out somewhat


Just an interesting observation about my crew the above post made me think of...Troy is very fearful and has big time issues with tons of things his brain can't process. Storms, people, the vaccum cleaner, balloons, you name it (about the only thing he's not afaid of is other dogs). 

When his fear is triggered he goes into a state of panic. When Lexi came here as a pup, I noticed that she was picking up on his extreme terror of the vaccum. She wasn't flipping out as badly as he does (he runs around mindlessly, trying to hide in spaces he can't fit into or the shower, closet, wherever) but there was a lot of anxiety developing on her part towards it. 

When we got Kato, she paid close attention to the fact that he couldn't have given a crap less about it, and eventualy her anxiety decreased. Now, I have to give her a nudge with my foot to get her to get up and move so that I can vaccum where she was snoozing (she even sleeps through it now). I really think that Lexi would have grown up to be a much more anxious dog with only Troy as an example to learn from. Because of Kato, I think she has so much more confidence than she would have otherwise!


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## MrsWoodcock (Oct 21, 2010)

So Curious, As my male and female arent skittish or show any fear towards noises of that sort. 

How would you explain "good nerves" of a puppy at the age of 11 weeks?
Is this what you would say is a good assessment of good nerves?

(more so starting at 1.30sec)


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

No.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

That video shows a bit of drive, but not too much about the nerves. At best, you can say it doesn't show bad nerves.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My female who was 'solid as a rock', (now passed),,did become more anxious with thunderstorms at around 9 years of age, I am petrified of Tstorms(can't believe I don't transmit that to the dogs),,and the house got struck once. 

I was on the kitchen floor with the aussie (the petrified one), it hit with such a bang the whole house shook, the gsd was then on top of me, the stove was on fire, blew out my dishwasher, furnace, and a spark came out of a couple wall sockets..(the worst I'd ever been thru

Anyhow, after that she was somewhat anxious, and I DO think as they get older, maybe somewhat 'deaf',,some dogs can become more sensitive to barometric pressure, that kind ofthing.

My aussie can pick up on a Tstorm a half hour before it hits


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I really wonder when it starts to happen with older dogs if it is more related to some health issue they are having- My dog does react when I am frightened of something


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

This is an intersting thread ! All NY previous dogs were **** scared od thunder and fireworks . Karma is rock solid . We get some insane tropical thunder and with it BIG lightning cracks here ans karma doesn't flinch . She bit a balloon the other day and it exploded in her face . Nothing !! I sure hope it does not manifest later in life .............


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## Rocky2011 (Mar 22, 2011)

*Fear>sound>thunder= breeding/handler/environment+.*

Hi, new to site. As I read through the thread I remember my breeders routine for puppies that included included tactile training at very early ages, a few days old, not weeks, then followed up throughout their development. She had them swimming 2-3wks old. I diligently expose my dog to new and more difficult thing regularly, noise and storms are part of this. He has a mindset to figure things out. Doesn't this also play into his reaction to sound, including thunder? Given his parents are working dogs and proven, I see "situations" and the dogs read on the handler play a big part.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I know in humans the pressure can effect joint problems. I don't see why the same could not be true for dogs. But to me that is still different than a dog that specifically reacts to the noise of thunder (or guns, or fireworks....). If a dog is in some discomfort due to low pressure systems and a pre-existing injury or condition of old age like arthritis, that is different than being sensitive to the noise.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

my old girl who has since passed, dragged my daughter into their house one day during a thunder storm, just passed the tree in the front when lightning struck the tree, bringing it down!!! This girl had never feared thunder, nor did she after, but that day she was in a flight panicked type state and dragged Laura to the door, they hadn't made it inside when it hit. To me that is perfect temperment, afraid when neccessary and not running away but pulling the owner to safety, then being calm and fine.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Our little old Scottie is afraid of T-storms. I was worried that she would "teach" Max to fear them (like she taught him to dig LOL) but he is fine. Now she is losing her hearing and the one benefit is that she is not so afraid during storms.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I had one litter that were housed in my laundry furnace room for an extended time (rather than in pens outside) because it was such a filthy wet cold late spring. The dogs stayed warm and dry and had everything they needed including spontaneous bursts of company and play from me. The pups , two black males DDR/wgwl mix Carmspack Ari - German shepherd dog
I had just finished coming in from outside after dealing with my adults wet and dirty , washing up at the kitchen sink , getting ready to change into something warm and dry.
Well if there isn't the loudest bang and the floor lifted a little bit . Sounded like a cannon going off. 
Ran downstairs, black soot coming into the hallway. The room where the pups were was as black as night -- I couldn't even see the pups -- I thought they were dead . Seriously. Slid back the half size pocket door and there they were greeting me tail wagging not a problem in the world. I rushed them outside. They were fine.
Called emergency furnace service. There had been a teeny pin prick of a hole in the oil line which allowed vaporized oil to collect and then when the furnace came on the vapors ignited - boom. Door to furnace blown across the room.
I thought for sure the pups would be traumatized to go back into the room. Took the full next two days to have new equipment installed and clean up. 
Pups entered no problem -- calm as cucumbers .

These pups were as sound as you could want. Did everything. Kept them till almost 10 months waiting and waiting for them to get over a real bad case of pano. In this case it was genetic. It was the most peculiar thing. Two black twin dogs. They showed symptoms the very same day. They favoured the same leg at the same time, synchronized, standing with left hind leg tucked up. Then when the pano shifted they both got it more or less the same day , same leg on each one. 

Temperament could not be beat. I don't want pano running through my line so they were sold . In those clear pano free spaces I could work them and had an idea of the potential . Even if they were okay chances were high that they could come down again and get cut from training. This could go on for two years.

Now that was a good test of nerves. They did better than I did.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

At the dog event I was at this past weekend, the subject was also broached. They were talking about temperament testing, and what they should do for it. And I said you do not prepare a dog for a TT. Then they talked about the gunshot, and my feeling is you take the dog there, if he has problems with the gunshot, then you know something you didn't before. I would never "prepare" a dog or desensitize a dog to gunshots so they could pass a TT. But someone told me that you could.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

On the flipside, I also feel that just because a dog is NOT noise-sensitive is not by itself an indication of good nerve. One of my dogs has never been sensitive to thunder or anything like that. She's been tested under gun fire (less than 20 feet away) and went to a huge firework display but overall a weaker dog in nerve.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Liesje this is true but a working dog must be capable of working under any conditions or its use is limited . You want to eliminate as many barriers to workability as possible. Noise sensitivity tends to be inhereted .
Carmen


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