# A dog's nerves?



## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Hi guys, sorry if this is in the wrong place but I was viewing this boy and apparently he seems to be collecting some hype and will be used as a stud dog. He looks nice, although I don't quite like his top line. A little curvy for my taste, but I am no expert on conformation and German Shepherds. I am just an enthusiast. 

I watched his video and again, I am no expert, but does he look a little nervous? German Shepherd dog experts, particularly the working line people, what do you think and could you please shed some light on me? 

Bruno vom Wallensener-Hof

EDIT: V Bruno vom Wallensener Hof ~ Here's his pedigree. Also would like to know if anyone has any idea on what progeny he could have?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

13 seconds in, you see they cut the tape, but the dog was backing away from the decoy when the decoy moved in. I don't see a confident dog IMO. On the table I see a dog at times trying to avoid the helper.

But what do I know?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the tie out was too short --- dog was already at the extent of the tie out , had to move sideways or step back to get a forward movement.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

carmspack said:


> the tie out was too short --- dog was already at the extent of the tie out , had to move sideways or step back to get a forward movement.


Look at the first clip that gets cut short a few more times


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Just a couple of comments. The stillness of the helper REALLY disturbs this dog. The behavior the dog shows speaks volumes but some know it all will try to tell us this means the dog is somehow "real". He's real alright but if I say what kind of real, the board will censor it.
Sorry, I do not like this dog in the least but this seems to be the direction the working lines are headed in. Most disturbing are the videos being posted showing these behaviors like they are something we should all be excited about. The teeth, the bark and the over-reaction says it all...I don't care that he will chase and bite a sleeve to get some security, the dog is not at all confident and the fear is quite evident. The Germans, who were once the people who truly understood the dogs, are now just as ignorant as many in the states.
Working lines now being bred to look like show lines and showing the decline in temperament along with it. It's simply maddening. Oh...and I DO know what I am talking about. Lets see where we are in another five or ten years of this idiocy.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> Just a couple of comments. The stillness of the helper REALLY disturbs this dog. The behavior the dog shows speaks volumes but some know it all will try to tell us this means the dog is somehow "real". He's real alright but if I say what kind of real, the board will censor it.
> Sorry, I do not like this dog in the least but this seems to be the direction the working lines are headed in. Most disturbing are the videos being posted showing these behaviors like they are something we should all be excited about. The teeth, the bark and the over-reaction says it all...I don't care that he will chase and bite a sleeve to get some security, the dog is not at all confident and the fear is quite evident. The Germans, who were once the people who truly understood the dogs, are now just as ignorant as many in the states.
> Working lines now being bred to look like show lines and showing the decline in temperament along with it. It's simply maddening. Oh...and I DO know what I am talking about. Lets see where we are in another five or ten years of this idiocy.


That's why I shall strive to maintain at least one bloodline of solid dogs. Wish I could show what confident table work looks like lol. Maybe I'll look for a video to edit and share


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I really would love to see what a confident dog looks like on the table, and if you have such a video I hope that you'll post it (and knowledgeable people will comment on it) so that I can try to learn something.

What I see on this video doesn't look much like a confident dog to me. But I actually _am_ clueless and am not just being modest there.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Merciel said:


> I really would love to see what a confident dog looks like on the table, and if you have such a video I hope that you'll post it (and knowledgeable people will comment on it) so that I can try to learn something.
> 
> What I see on this video doesn't look much like a confident dog to me. But I actually _am_ clueless and am not just being modest there.


There you go. Everyone is free to ask questions, express opinions, tell me I'm incorrect (I'm sure *someone* will lol). Note... this is a square table. It is meant to be more stressful. Round tables are typically used for control work


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in the video of Bruno he is very defensive . 
Was the clip longer or have parts been edited ? 
Would have been nice to see the entire episode to see what the interaction was between decoy and dog from the beginning. At what point, or how quickly , or for what reason did the dog get SO worked up . At any point once the decoy is still the dog should start to settle, but at the same time be watchful.
What I saw or see is in the running portion on the field the dog has no fight and there is lofting just behind the whithers , a slight involuntary hackling when the dog about to get the sleeve and just fresh off the sleeve. Subtle .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

That dog looks like he wasnt to far away from soiling himself on the table. Im betting his bite would have been chewy as heck probably why it wasnt shown.
There is a reason he was sold to Oz and its not because he is any good imo.. I think him being a stud has way more to do with his V rating then his actual workability. If he was SG or G I am betting he would be a club level pet if even that.

To paraphrase a certain breeder. This is a great example of a working show dog..imo..


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm sure he was terrified hunter" ready to run away at any minute' but the chain is what keep him from running! It made him feel brave" weak nerve's" now Jagger" well he looked strong" brave" nice dog!! The decoy I'm sure would have ran away but the chain gave him strength! Lol
I like your dog hunter. Bill

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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

hunterisgreat said:


> There you go. Everyone is free to ask questions, express opinions, tell me I'm incorrect (I'm sure *someone* will lol). Note... this is a square table. It is meant to be more stressful. Round tables are typically used for control work
> 
> Tablework HD 1080p - YouTube


Thanks for the link Hunter, this dog definitely looks more confident to me. Whereas Bruno looked fairly nervous to me and kind of reminded me (I am terribly sorry if this offends anyone!) of my mother's Chihuahua. The way her dog reacts to strangers, she barks wildly at them, kind of in a high pitched, desperate tone and as soon as the stranger looks at her or takes a step forward she will sometimes wet herself or will turn tail, hide behind a larger object and start wildly barking again. But in the video Bruno couldn't run away . . .

That's my experience anyway. I am no expert, but that is my gut feeling.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Vandal said:


> Just a couple of comments. The stillness of the helper REALLY disturbs this dog. The behavior the dog shows speaks volumes but some know it all will try to tell us this means the dog is somehow "real". He's real alright but if I say what kind of real, the board will censor it.
> Sorry, I do not like this dog in the least but this seems to be the direction the working lines are headed in. Most disturbing are the videos being posted showing these behaviors like they are something we should all be excited about. The teeth, the bark and the over-reaction says it all...I don't care that he will chase and bite a sleeve to get some security, the dog is not at all confident and the fear is quite evident. The Germans, who were once the people who truly understood the dogs, are now just as ignorant as many in the states.
> Working lines now being bred to look like show lines and showing the decline in temperament along with it. It's simply maddening. Oh...and I DO know what I am talking about. Lets see where we are in another five or ten years of this idiocy.


That really is saddening how the breed appears to be heading into a decline. Here in Australia it appears that quite a few of the working line breeders are using him and what's even more disheartening is that one of the working line breeders that I had great respect for has deemed this dog fit to be a stud.  But maybe, just maybe, is there a chance that it was just a poor video? Would Bruno pass his bad traits on or not? I'm starting to feel that perhaps it is best that I do not get a pup from him, just my gut feeling, but again, I am no expert . . .


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

There is a breeder in OZ that used Drago vom Patriot recently on a female linebred on Tiekerhook. Puppy looked awesome, you should look him up and see what he has.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Are you looking at breeders on the east coast/Australia wide?
Von Forell Melbourne
Raennik main in Queensland 
Not sure if they have any litters but would have good contacts


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

behaviour on table , training, decoy/equipment or genetics ?

opening new topic


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There is a breeder in OZ that used Drago vom Patriot recently on a female linebred on Tiekerhook. Puppy looked awesome, you should look him up and see what he has.


I'm not a fan of the bicolour but when I looked up Drago and saw a video of him I was certainly impressed! Again, I am not an expert but I liked what I saw. He did seem very excited and eager to do his job.  Blitzkrieg1, do you know who the breeder is? 



sparra said:


> Are you looking at breeders on the east coast/Australia wide?
> Von Forell Melbourne
> Raennik main in Queensland
> Not sure if they have any litters but would have good contacts


Yeah, I am from WA, but perfectly happy to look everywhere in Australia. I did send an inquiry to both breeders.  Raennik has a litter at the moment, but I think that's too early for me.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> There you go.


Thanks! I appreciate the captions too -- very helpful to know where the dog was in his training at each point. 

It's a very clear difference between this video and the OP's, that's for sure.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yoshi said:


> I'm not a fan of the bicolour but when I looked up Drago and saw a video of him I was certainly impressed! Again, I am not an expert but I liked what I saw. He did seem very excited and eager to do his job.  Blitzkrieg1, do you know who the breeder is?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I am from WA, but perfectly happy to look everywhere in Australia. I did send an inquiry to both breeders.  Raennik has a litter at the moment, but I think that's too early for me.


 
This was the pups video, the kennel name is in there somewhere.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay , now consider --- any similarities ?

Bruno vom Wallensener-Hof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXAdo3qyWU

one on table , one not


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

This is all really interesting things to read and learn about. I had only heard about the table training here on this forum. I'm fairly novice to all of this, though I love reading everything and absorbing what I can from it. 

I am curious what people think about my girl. She's different from other dogs, since she was almost five when she started and we had to go another way to get her to show not only that she had the drives to work but that she had the heart to. I am working with my younger puppy to do bitework with him in the future. Call it trying to absorb everything I can. Nothing will take away the pride I have in her and the trust. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/450330-shes-holding-onto-sleeve.html


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Colie CVT said:


> This is all really interesting things to read and learn about. I had only heard about the table training here on this forum. I'm fairly novice to all of this, though I love reading everything and absorbing what I can from it.
> 
> I am curious what people think about my girl. She's different from other dogs, since she was almost five when she started and we had to go another way to get her to show not only that she had the drives to work but that she had the heart to. I am working with my younger puppy to do bitework with him in the future. Call it trying to absorb everything I can. Nothing will take away the pride I have in her and the trust.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/450330-shes-holding-onto-sleeve.html


I've read your thread . If it's any comfort, jäger was started at 4. He is 7 now


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

That's awesome.  The only part of sport that I've managed to convince Leia is fun is the protection lol. Really wish I'd had her from a puppy, but she is all around a really good dog. I figured it would throw a different variable into the mix talking about nerves, since she is out of a show kennel rather than working lines. I do well with comparing and contrasting things to learn more. I tend to watch every dog the helper I work with works with. Every one is a little different and his approach is a little different for each of them. 

It's really awesome watching dogs in action.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

My female is 6 and we started training for our BH late March. We had our second day of protection training over the weekend, and she is happy to represent Team OldDogsCanLearnNewTricks.

(edit: mine is a (WG)Showline as well)


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This was the pups video, the kennel name is in there somewhere.


Thanks for that Blitzkrieg1.  That looks like Kovacs. I remember seeing it somewhere on Dogzonline. I didn't realise that pups could be trained to do such exercises when they are so young. 

Are there anymore breeders with good working dogs? :help:


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Yoshi said:


> Thanks for that Blitzkrieg1.  That looks like Kovacs. I remember seeing it somewhere on Dogzonline. I didn't realise that pups could be trained to do such exercises when they are so young.
> 
> Are there anymore breeders with good working dogs? :help:



Thats really more genetics at play then training. Most pups wont put on that type of preformance.


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## simba405 (Mar 14, 2013)

Definitely more genetics than anything. Only people who live and breath dogs would want that type of pup though.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

simba405 said:


> Definitely more genetics than anything. Only people who live and breath dogs would want that type of pup though.


I am really after a companion dog, but I also would like a dog with typical German Shepherd temperament.  I do not plan on doing competition sports, but would rather do practical jobs with him like a bit of herding or tracking, or guarding property/farm animals. I do roustabouting and working in the sheep-yards a fair bit. I really, really, do not want a timid dog or a dog that lacks clarity. But yeah, mainly a companion that does random jobs every now and then.

Most working line breeders are using Bruno and I was wondering if it's a good idea to get a pup from him? Does his performance effect the pups he sires?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Weak breeds weak, or maybe you will get lucky and the pup will get more Karn then Bruno. For me the risk would not be worth it, just knowing that dog was so close up...no thanks.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Weak breeds weak, or maybe you will get lucky and the pup will get more Karn then Bruno. For me the risk would not be worth it, just knowing that dog was so close up...no thanks.


If that's so then I really don't want to take the risk.  Just wish I knew some working line German Shepherd dog enthusiasts or experts so I can have some sort of help in selecting a pup. All I really have are the breeders' word and I don't think that that's particularly reliable. Wish I could post the pup's parents and see what others think of the lines. It would be awesome if finding a good dog was easier! :crazy:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

tres bien https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIIYOxGAMT0 because I appreciate a GOOD dog , no matter what breed it is .

you have power and control , and a dog who wants to control , not just a prey dog

the first part with the crotch punch , You have to train that?


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Very good dog" and training!:thumbup:

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## workinggsd1979 (Feb 19, 2017)

*Bruno footage*

Try the new youtube footage taken recently of him at Von Forell (Kris Kotsopoulos) Youtube channel.


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