# "Types" of German Sheperds



## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

*Not sure where to put this; so if any of the Mods feel like moving it, please do so.


I would like to know about the different "types" of German Shepherds. I have obviously done some reading and have a general overview of each, but would like some personal opinions on each "type" as well as maybe your own definitions.

This can be anything from temperament, drive, structure, astethics, etc.. 


*West German Show Line

East German Show Line

West German Working Line

East German Working Line

Canadian Show Line

American Show Line

DDR

Czech Lines

White German Shepherd

Long-haired German Shepherd*


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

East German Working Line and DDR are the same thing.

East German Show Line - I don't even know what that is









Obviously, I'm a fan of DDRs. I like the structure and the way breeders never cared so much what they looked like as how they worked. Also like the temperment, my DDR boys have been very smart, hard workers and very loving.

My female is a rescue but I believe she's west german working by her looks and disposition. She's a hard working girl too, all business and extremely loyal, don't mess with Momma Moon.

Couple of my other dogs were west german show, I find them too high strung. One was an american show line crossed with west german show, he was nucking futz, that dog had no off switch.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Sorry, I copied and pasted the "types" from another website without looking at them..


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:Canadian Show Line
> 
> American Show Line


They are basically the same lines, and they can vary wildly depending on the region and the venue. 

Specialty dogs (dogs shown at German Shepherd only shows with AKC) tend to be more extreme in the rear angulation, loosely ligamented, and since their bodies don't hold up to much work, seldom are their brains tested. The most common title seen in their pedigrees is Champion, sometimes with a Select rating at the National.

All-Breed dogs (dogs shown in the all-breed shows) tend to be less extreme than the above dogs. Because of the smaller rings and differences in judging, these dogs are usually tighter ligamented as well. Most of these dogs will also have a Champion title, but with Herding Group placings or Best in Show wins.

My particular subset of American/Canadian line dogs are very intellegent. I have produced three generations of Herding Group placing, Champion, OFA certified, AKC performance titled dogs. One was a Champion/Utility Dog/Open Agility/Herding Started. Several of these dogs have also acted as my service dogs of the years -- Tag helps with the laundry and picks up pens and scissors that I drop. They have also participated in many public demonstrations and therapy work.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would break down general types as.....

West German working lines (I assume this also would include Dutch, Belgian, etc western European working dogs)

East German/DDR working lines

Czech working lines

North American specialty show lines

North American all-breed show lines

West German show lines (some are getting so extreme you could probably split this into the "VA" types, similar to the North American specialty vs. all-breed)

Pet/BYB lines

Whites


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I would not classify Pet/BYB or Whites as a type of GSD - they could be subsets of any of the lines mentioned. Remember Horand's dam was a white bitch.

I would add the lines from England, Scotland, Ireland.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DocI would not classify Pet/BYB or Whites as a type of GSD - they could be subsets of any of the lines mentioned. Remember Horand's dam was a white bitch.


In many cases yes, but in others no, IMO. Depends on the individual situation. 

There are bloodlines of WGSDs that have been developed that really would deserve to be considered their own subset. There is even one that has obtained separate breed recognition in Europe. But of course the color can occur in any line, so no way to know which category any individual WGSD would fall into without knowing it's pedigree and background.

Same for pet lines. Many have been generation after generation of pet breeding, so might be worthy of being called their own subset. Others are a more recent mixing of different lines, and certainly wouldn't.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I thought of the "pet/byb" type more as a lack of type, I see many of them where one line or type really cannot be distinguished, so after a few generations of breeding it sort of becomes its own type. I'm thinking in terms of structure, coat, etc, not the actual function of the dog. Many "west German working line" type dogs or whatever *are* pets, for example. A "working line" dog is not necessarily a working dog, or a "show line" dog isn't necessarily entered in conformation.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Lack of type.. I think that's a very good way to look at it.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

My particular subset of American/Canadian line dogs are very intellegent, 

this is a quote from above and I think there are lots of breeders with this subset. I have no idea if Ty's lines go back to anything Andaka has but I can say his lines also have similar qualities she has listed. I know several of the dogs from the same kennel and the one thing in common besides good looks is strong temperment, intelligence and work abilities and good health, hips and elbows.


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

I don't have a set opinion on this, but I tend to think of White German shepherds as a part of North American show lines, seeing that breeders of whites show in the UKC, not just in the White German shepherd Club. Some white breeders also show under the AKC with their white factored colored dogs, or sometimes even colored dogs without the white factor.

For example, this bitch would be labeled as American show lines (Am. Ch Eclipse's Bittersweet Solitude). 









http://eclipsekennels.com/GSD/soli.htm

However, in her pedigree, it can be seen that her sire is a very well received white German shepherd (WGSDCA BIF/BIM Grand Victor 6x Select Ch. / WGSDCII Grand Victor and 2x Select Ch. / ARBA BIS Master Ch. / FO UKC 7x BIMBS 3x RBIMBS Grand GSD Ch. / IABCA Multi. Ch. Eclipse's Strength of Atlas, RN, RL1, TN-N, WAX, WVDX, WROM, O-V, TC, CGC, TDI, OFA aka "Atlas"). Atlas is also, incidentally, a long coat. 

So would that make her from WGSD lines, Long coat lines, American show lines, AND UKC show lines? 

From what I've heard from breeders of White German shepherds, their whites are simply North American show lines, as they focus on showing in the UKC, where long coats and whites are acceptable. They tend to consider themselves more show line German shepherd breeders who favor and preserve whites. Of course, there are many well known white German shepherds among breeders who breed the color (Atlas, Polar, etc.) but I don't think that's qualification for the color to become its own line. The structure of the white GSDs are the same compared to the structure of many other show line GSDs in the UKC and even the AKC, yet the majority of those German shepherds are not from "WGSD lines".


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ReiI don't have a set opinion on this, but I tend to think of White German shepherds as a part of North American show lines, seeing that breeders of whites show in the UKC, not just in the White German shepherd Club. Some white breeders also show under the AKC with their white factored colored dogs, or sometimes even colored dogs without the white factor.
> ...
> From what I've heard from breeders of White German shepherds, their whites are simply North American show lines, as they focus on showing in the UKC, where long coats and whites are acceptable. They tend to consider themselves more show line German shepherd breeders who favor and preserve whites. Of course, there are many well known white German shepherds among breeders who breed the color (Atlas, Polar, etc.) but I don't think that's qualification for the color to become its own line. The structure of the white GSDs are the same compared to the structure of many other show line GSDs in the UKC and even the AKC, yet the majority of those German shepherds are not from "WGSD lines".


I tend to agree with this in general. Depending on the WGSD club's breed stanadard, some clubs (WGSDCA & WGSDCII) strive to produce WGSDs similar to those you see in the AKC shows. Several other WGSD clubs (WSCC & AWSA) who favor breed separation, prefer dogs that don't have as much angulation. 

The UKC accepts GSDs with white coats to compete in conformation as well as dogs registered as White Shepherds to compete in conformation. Therefore you may find two WGSDs competing in Group who are closely related to each other, yet accepted as separate breeds.

Here's an oldie. Tymer, a Canadian champion. His colored sire, JR, is from the Amherst/Hoheneichen lines and his white dam, Petra, is from Hoofprint/Regalweiss lines. Tymer and some of his littermates are still found in WGSD pedigrees today.








Pedigree:
http://www.wgsdca.org/dogs/showDog.asp?name=hylowes_once_in_a_lyfetyme


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

This came as a surprise to me. I had no idea AKC allowed whites' offspring to be registered and shown in conformation. I am a bit confused though, and hoping someone can give me a bit of explanation...If AKC automatically disqualifies white dogs from conformation based solely on their color, how is it that they allow offspring of a white to be registered and shown? Seems kind of hypocritical to me.









-Jackie


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

Jackie, the AKC does NOT require a show rating for a dog to be bred and registered. The SV requires a working title for a dog to be bred and offspring to be registered. I do not think ANY registry for GSD require a show rating for the dog's offspring to be registered.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I thought whites could be registered with AKC and shown in obedience but are disqualified from conformation?

With AKC, as long as the parents are registered as german shepherds, color doesn't matter to register the litter. It's when you want to show them in breed (conformation) that the whites get excluded.


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## jfisher (Dec 29, 2005)

> Quote:I thought whites could be registered with AKC and shown in obedience but are disqualified from conformation?


That's correct. I was just confused about AKC regarding a white's offspring.

-Jackie

PS- Thanks for the explanation, Ruq!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaEast German Working Line and DDR are the same thing.
> 
> East German Show Line - I don't even know what that is


If you want to get technical not ALL East German Shepherds are DDR nor are they exclusively working lines. East German Shepherds are dogs the maintained the German Shepherd Dog back before the wall separating East and West Europe. Czech dogs are also East German. Tika's Dad was a B/R:










http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/408343.html 

But he was registered in the Czech republic (I think but MIGHT have been Slovak but back in the day of the Wall they were the same country if I recall correctly). But alas except for a bit of working lines in his Mom's side he would be considered a Show line. But in his day I dare you to tell him that!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

LOL, I changed my answer a bit after I re-read your question.

I'd like to see them be their own breed becuase I think they're gorgeous. However, that can't be done becuase occasionally a white will show up in a litter of colored GSDs. What the odds of that happening are, I dunno but it does happen. Then what do you do with the white puppy? It's parents are registered as GSDs but it's this other breed, Canadian/Swiss or what ever they're calling them this year so what happens that poor pup who happened to have the bad luck of the masking gene popping up.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaEast German Working Line and DDR are the same thing.
> ...


That does make a point for the breakdown of 

E German working
DDR 
E German show (guessing this would be dogs that didn't patrol or herd, were primarily bred to be sport dogs for breeding?)

I've always thought of Czech dogs as part of that same subset - Iron Curtain Dogs

That leaves us with 4 types. 

Iron Curtain Dogs
West German Working
West German Show
American Show 

Where do the British bred dogs fit into this - they look about as much like a west german show line as the american show lines do - sortofkindabutnotreally. 








the circle goes around again


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaLOL, I changed my answer a bit after I re-read your question.
> 
> I'd like to see them be their own breed becuase I think they're gorgeous. However, that can't be done becuase occasionally a white will show up in a litter of colored GSDs. What the odds of that happening are, I dunno but it does happen. Then what do you do with the white puppy? It's parents are registered as GSDs but it's this other breed, Canadian/Swiss or what ever they're calling them this year so what happens that poor pup who happened to have the bad luck of the masking gene popping up.


I won't get into a debate about breed separation. If AKC doesn't change its current registration rules, even if there were a separate White Shepherd breed (or whatever name they would choose), if a bitch registered as a GSD gave birth to a white coated pup sired by a dog registered as a GSD, AKC would register the pup as a GSD colored white.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

That's what I'm thinking is the main reason there can't be a split


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaThat's what I'm thinking is the main reason there can't be a split


I oppose breed separation but not for that reason. I hope I'm saying this correctly, butAKC already has similar situations in other breeds and this is how one breed handles them:

I had some friends up in MD who bred their AKC CH Belgian Shepherd to an AKC CH Belgian Shepherd. They got a nice litter and one of the pups turned out to be one of the most beautiful Belgian Tervurens I've ever seen. But since the parents were registered as Belgian Shepherds the Terv was technically a Belgian Shepherd according to AKC and couldn't be shown since her color was a DQ in the Belgian Shepherd breed standard - "Disqualification Any color other than black, ... "

So using this as an example, if AKC ever recognized a WGSD breed, they would still register white coated GSDs as GSDs unless they change their rules.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I think we're saying pretty much the same thing - if the whites became their own breed and the odd white popped up to AKC registered GSDs, what do you do with it? 

Your example comfustibates me, I thought they were all belgain shepherds with the subsets being Tervs, Groenendal, mals and Laekenois? Seems to me the belgian breeders went down this road and got a little lost!


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaI think we're saying pretty much the same thing - if the whites became their own breed and the odd white popped up to AKC registered GSDs, what do you do with it?
> 
> Your example comfustibates me, I thought they were all belgain shepherds with the subsets being Tervs, Groenendal, mals and Laekenois? Seems to me the belgian breeders went down this road and got a little lost!


No, I guess I'm not being clear - sorry. The white GSD would be registered as a GSD!

I don't know about Canada, but in the majority of countries there is only one Belgian breed. For some unknown reason, AKC split them up into several separate breeds.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

AKC did not split them. I believe how it happened is that each variety (well, 3 of them as there are 4) applied for membership as separate breeds with separate breed clubs.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

While the Belgians are Varieties in all other countries, the reason Belgians became separate breeds here is because the breeders lobbied for it. The reason for this was due to the way the AKC system is set up and they were concerned about numbers for getting points.

Belgians generally have a low point schedule due to lack of available dogs. They did it to try and keep point schedules stable, if that makes sense


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: XephWhile the Belgians are Varieties in all other countries, the reason Belgians became separate breeds here is because the breeders lobbied for it. The reason for this was due to the way the AKC system is set up and they were concerned about numbers for getting points.
> 
> Belgians generally have a low point schedule due to lack of available dogs. They did it to try and keep point schedules stable, if that makes sense


 Actually it was a very political move at the time and the choice was not based in knowledge of the breed. They should have been split into varities the way that Collies are - Smooth and Rough collies compete totally separately at shows, with their own point systems but can be interbred or registered as what they are (for example: a smooth out of roughs can still be registered as a smooth). 

"A small but very vocal group of Groenendael breeders began protesting to the AKC that the other varieties were too different — perhaps not the same breed at all. American intervariety breedings of the 1950s became the focal point for the group’s demands for separate breed status for the other varieties. The AKC responded by sending out a questionnaire asking Belgian Sheepdog owners for their opinions on intervariety breeding and conformation competition. Less than half of the BSCA’s members responded, but in July 1958, the AKC Board of Directors voted to separate the varieties into breeds. Groenendael owners wished to keep the name “Belgian Sheepdog” for their breed; the appellation “Belgian” was added to the Malinois and Tervuren names." http://www.abtc.org/index.php/the-breed-...n-shepherd-dogs

There have been moves made to recombine the breeds in AKC but so far have not passed. AKC has further complicated the issue by saying they will not allow any more breeds to be split into varities. 

An interesting note is that there is no longer a "3 generation rule" for imports with AKC. Imports used to have to show 3 generations of "pure" breeding according to AKC breeding before AKC would register them. Now AKC will register a dog based on it's country's registeration. That means, for example if one would import littermate Belgians out of a Terv to Groenendael (Black Dog, "Belgian Sheepdog") breeding they would be AKC registered, when the same breeding would be ineligiable for AKC breeding if done in the US. To further complicate the matter, if those imported littermate happened to be different colors they will be AKC registered as separate breeds. 

Then there is the issue that Arycrest brings up. Even breeding only say Groenendael to Groenendael, you will sometimes end up with Tervs in a litter. These dogs must be registered as Belgian Sheepdogs because that is what their parents are but have a disqualifying fault of being brown. If born in another country and imported to the US, AKC would accept these same dogs as Tervs without question.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Off topic but I'm curious how did mals come to be. Tervs and groenendaels are pretty wooley, were mals just the close coated pups?


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Each of the 4 Belgian varieties were preferred in a different area and so got their names by the region they were popular in. However each does through the varieties. The problem with the 3 generation rule was it didn't prevent the offspring from being one of the other varieties. I know of some breeders who send their females to Canada to whelp when they have done an inter variety breeding, then the pups born here can be sent to the US and properly registered.

All varieties have the same standard, excluding coat and colour. Temperments are supposed to be the same, as are size and substance. The problem is some people prefer one thing so then a strain of the breed goes off on a different tangent and then there are differences. I am not saying this is right or wrong, all breeds were developed for a purpose and as the purposes change so the breeders wish to change the breeds. 

And as with all animals some are better suited to different purposes, which doesn't make the others less valuable, just different, and suited to different jobs.


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## tuco (Sep 14, 2009)

This Gyp is out of a dam who was, other than a splash of DDR, all West German Working lines. Her sire was half West German Working lines and half West German Show lines.


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

Riley is Kirchental lines, Alpenhof is her breeder. Isn't this considered technically East German Showlines?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

No, that is west German showlines.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: sprzybylRiley is Kirchental lines, Alpenhof is her breeder. Isn't this considered technically East German Showlines?


There aren't really East German show lines. The German show lines are now all one in the same, generally. Even the ones bred in the USA or other parts of Europe are still West German show lines. Kirschental used to be more of a mix of working and show but now are basically show lines (which doesn't mean they aren't used daily for work, but....).


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for the clarification!!!


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