# Abusive training methods



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I have been looking at the web-sites of various clubs and many state something to the effect "Abusive training methods will not be tolerated". 
I am curious as to what exactly constitutes abuse.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Call and ask. 

Some places look at anything not positive reinforcement as abusive.

Some will object to certain collars and corrections.

Some will not tolerate you hitting or kicking the dog. 

The only way to know is to ask them.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Its subjective, there is no factual answer just opinions.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Most Schutzhund clubs I know of do not train strictly using "positive reinforcement". Some may. However this doesn't mean they condone people hurting their dogs.

Usually what it means is they will not allow *excessive* use of training collars (be it a choke, prong or e-collar) or corrections. Most will not allow you to kick or beat the dog.

But true, you should call, email or visit the club and ask. Each club can have a bit different interpretation.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Didn't you know?

Training in itself is abusive. Dogs should be running free through the flowers fields...


----------



## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Vinnie,
What is "excessive"? Typically excessive would mean more than what is required. If the trainer thought that an action was not required would he be doing it? Who decides and what is the criteria for deciding that a correction is "excessive"? 
Also, what constitutes "kicking or beating" a dog? Is a toe on the ass to make sit a "kick"? Is a swat on the nose "beating"? Again who decides and what is the criteria?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I did not read anything in the OPs post about schutzhund, must have missed that, and I would not have replied. 

I have been to trainers who claimed they only used positive reinforcement. (Body slams to get the Great Dane Puppy in a down position are ok though.)

My current trainer allows prongs and chokes, not head collars though. Will not allow killing the dog -- I am usually threatening to.

Other places I have been would not allow prong collars, but did allow head collars. 

So, you just really need to call.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Zahnburg said:


> Vinnie,
> What is "excessive"? Typically excessive would mean more than what is required. If the trainer thought that an action was not required would he be doing it? Who decides and what is the criteria for deciding that a correction is "excessive"?
> Also, what constitutes "kicking or beating" a dog? Is a toe on the ass to make sit a "kick"? Is a swat on the nose "beating"? Again who decides and what is the criteria?


It's all decided by the individual club. Each club can and will have a different interpretation (as I said earlier). 



selzer said:


> I did not read anything in the OPs post about schutzhund, must have missed that, and I would not have replied.


Usually when a question is posted in the 'Schutzhund Training' section - it's about Schutzhund.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LOL, got me. I've been hanging out in active topics again.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

selzer said:


> LOL, got me. I've been hanging out in active topics again.


  That's ok your initial answer is still very fitting. "Call and ask."


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If Animal Control is watching, and they arrest you, then it is abusive.

Seriously, when you leave blood on the field, or have to drag your dog TO the field, then maybe the training methods could be considered abusive.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Seriously, when you leave blood on the field.....


What if it is your blood?


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

That's just a sign that you need to move faster to avoid the teeth


----------



## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

IMO, corrections in training become abusive when emotion (anger/frustration) becomes the reason for the correction, and the true objective of the training is lost and the correction no longer has an instructional purpose for the dog.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

lhczth said:


> What if it is your blood?


Agreed, then you just need to be faster.


----------



## clearcreekranch (Mar 18, 2010)

OK, since I am new to all this, is it considered abusive when my dog is trying VERY hard to get at a worker at my house and I have to keep correcting him with a prong collar until he finally settles down? I would like to know how you would use positive reinforcement in that situation unless when he finally relents, you say "good boy"! No blood was drawn, by the way. And I tried crating him, but he practically took off the top of the crate. He is only 8 mos.


----------



## Andy-jr. (Mar 1, 2010)

clearcreekranch said:


> OK, since I am new to all this, is it considered abusive when my dog is trying VERY hard to get at a worker at my house and I have to keep correcting him with a prong collar until he finally settles down? I would like to know how you would use positive reinforcement in that situation unless when he finally relents, you say "good boy"! .


Redirect his attention to something he likes, like a ball or something.


----------



## GROVEBEAUTY (Oct 23, 2008)

I agree, if it's your blood you need to move faster. Abusive is sooo subjective. In the class I have been to they only use positive training methods and for a high drive dog that is unrealistic. JMHO.


----------



## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I just want to add that continous correcting of the prong collar could force his drive UP instead of DOWN. I would block his view of what he is 'targeting' and try to get his attention. A favourite treat, a favourite game, it doesnt matter. Keep reinforcing this but it HAS TO BE his #1 favourite thing in the world. Otherwise, the 'target' is much more interesting than you. The other thing you can do is 'watch me' where the dog looks you in the eyes. I would train this command in a room free of disruption/distractions first though, and gradually add distractions/disruptions


----------



## Navah (Aug 10, 2010)

Is kicking (quick and hard toe area kicking in front of throat) in the throat abusive? Is this normal is Schutzhund training?


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

JKlatsky said:


> IMO, corrections in training become abusive when emotion (anger/frustration) becomes the reason for the correction, and the true objective of the training is lost and the correction no longer has an instructional purpose for the dog.


That and using force in general to train your dog like in the old days. 

Back then they wouldnt just use a prong and a simple e-shocker. They'd use very strong and hard electro shocks from a car-battery to "fry" the dog, make him bite and especially to teach them retrieve. 

You don't want to know how dogs were trained to retrieve more than 15 years ago, it was very painful, especially for the dogs. 

Thats abuse. 
Or yanking a dog through the air on a prong collar. That is abuse too. 

Kicking, Beating just because you are angry at the dog, anything that you wouldn't do to your child or yourself. Anything that could get you arrested.


----------

