# Just checking in with the BARFers...



## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

So we're starting 5 month old Juno on her raw diet this weekend. I just wanted to run my plan by y'all in this forum to see if I'm on the right track and to get advice. 

At 4 months, Juno was 33 pounds. Now at 5, she's 40. 

The vet said that dogs reach 50% of their weight somewhere between 4 and 5 months, but according to the GSD growth chart, that's not entirely true. Juno seems to a little smaller, so far, than the average GSD female (although we understand that her mom was average and her dad was really, really big). We combined both what the vet said and the chart to estimate that she'll be around 65 or 70 pounds when she's full grown. 

We're going to start her on chicken necks and chicken breasts. Starting somewhere between 2 and 3% of her adult weight, we're going to give her 15 oz of RMB and 10 oz mm spread over three meals. We're going to switch her to two meals next month when she's six months old.

We're just using those numbers as a starting point and we'll watch her poop and weight to get the right balance and amount as we go. Do those numbers as a starting point seem right?

Once we're sure she can handle the chicken, we'll switch the chicken MM to turkey MM and add a veg/egg meal. 

Then we're going to add organ meat (chicken) and then gradually beef, pork, and fish. 

Right now I'm estimating that we'll add one protein every week or so. But maybe that's too fast? We'll just watch and see how she handles everything, but I want to make sure that I have what I need on hand and so I wondered how quickly others added proteins to a pup's diet. 

She's already sampled (in small amounts) raw chicken, cooked tuna, raw beef (on her recreational bones), eggs, and a variety of fruits and vegetables and she's loved them all and handled it all fine in small amounts. 

I REALLY can't wait to start her this weekend! I'm excited to see her reaction and to start to really be mores "hands on" in terms of what her diet is. I'll keep posting as things progress!

Thanks for all the awesome, super helpful information I've gotten (and will continue to get) in this forum!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Chicken necks are pretty boney...you might have to decrease the amount of necks (if you are feeding 15 oz of them) and up the chicken breast.


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

Cheers on your decision to go raw. I'm new to the raw diet too. We started in january with 50/50 kibble to raw. Just last weekend we went total raw. My dogs have adapted excellently to the change, but it was gradual, and my dogs are adults. Love the new improved poop size.







LOL


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: mspiker03Chicken necks are pretty boney...you might have to decrease the amount of necks (if you are feeding 15 oz of them) and up the chicken breast.


Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: little red
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the support! It would definitely be nice to have some consistency and, er, better consistency in the poop area! Fortunately, she's still a pup and her system doesn't know any better, so I think we'll make the switch a bit more quickly and then parse out the addition of other items and proteins.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Okay I know most here feel differently than me, but, puppies have specific nutritional needs that are different from the needs of adults and you only have one chance to grow them right. I wouldn't leave my dogs future up to a guessing game of what foods to feed and by hoping variety was enough to cover all the bases. 

I make my adult dogs diets utilizing the NRCs nutritional guidelines and they do have numbers for growing puppies.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428679&page=2#Post428679


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: natalie559Okay I know most here feel differently than me, but, puppies have specific nutritional needs that are different from the needs of adults and you only have one chance to grow them right. I wouldn't leave my dogs future up to a guessing game of what foods to feed and by hoping variety was enough to cover all the bases.
> 
> I make my adult dogs diets utilizing the NRCs nutritional guidelines and they do have numbers for growing puppies.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428679&page=2#Post428679


Thanks for the tip and the link.

I have total respect for the way that you feed your dogs. 

Let's say that you were in the hypothetical situation of only having the time and resources to either feed your puppy kibble or to feed them a raw diet based on percentages. Which route would you elect to go?


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Kibble until they were 1 year old, but I would replace about 30% their kibble with fresh raw foods daily. This would give me the best of both worlds- the science behind the dog food formulations plus health benefits from the fresh raw foods.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: natalie559Kibble until they were 1 year old, but I would replace about 30% their kibble with fresh raw foods daily. This would give me the best of both worlds- the science behind the dog food formulations plus health benefits from the fresh raw foods.


Would you (or do you) have concerns that even though the kibble is "balanced," some of the nutrients and enzymes are not available because they are cooked or processed? (And therefore even though they are on both raw and kibble, they're not getting enough of the nutrients and enzymes in the best form?)

Do you have a certain kibble that you trust is balanced for a puppy and is, therefore, better than a raw diet?


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: natalie559Kibble until they were 1 year old, but I would replace about 30% their kibble with fresh raw foods daily. This would give me the best of both worlds- the science behind the dog food formulations plus health benefits from the fresh raw foods.


I am not that knowledgeable about puppy nutrition, so I would want to make sure that they were getting everything they need. For what it is worth, I agree with natalie 559 that the puppy has one chance to grow up healthy and strong, so I would agree with her above post as well. I didn't know about RAW diets until recently so I have never investigated puppy raw diets. I am sure you will get a lot of good advice from members who have been there.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: little red
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: natalie559Kibble until they were 1 year old, but I would replace about 30% their kibble with fresh raw foods daily. This would give me the best of both worlds- the science behind the dog food formulations plus health benefits from the fresh raw foods.
> ...


I hope more members comment -- I'm starting to wonder if it's a good idea to feed a puppy a raw diet and trust that the variation will take care of her nutritional needs or if I need to work on sorting out supplements more...


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

Rhena, check out jeff_s 's thread, he is asking alot of the same questions so maybe that will also help you. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1002869&page=1#Post1002869

You are getting/will get opposing views concerning RAW diets in general,(the controversy isn't limited to just puppy diets) so ultimately you have to weigh all the evidence and do what you believe is best for you and your sweet little puppy. (when are you going to post some pics of her? she looks like my baby girl when she was young.







)


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaWould you (or do you) have concerns that even though the kibble is "balanced," some of the nutrients and enzymes are not available because they are cooked or processed? (And therefore even though they are on both raw and kibble, they're not getting enough of the nutrients and enzymes in the best form?)


The cooking and processing does make some of the nutrients unavailable. That is why kibble is over supplemented to begin with, to compensate for the loss. If you compare AAFCO guidelines, which dog food companies adhere to, to that of the National Research Council you will see that how much higher the requirements are for that very reason. 

But in the end, the dog gets what it needs and any small concern that I had that they weren't would be satisfied by the supplemental feeding I would also be doing.



> Originally Posted By: RhenaDo you have a certain kibble that you trust is balanced for a puppy and is, therefore, better than a raw diet?


Well Penny is almost five, so I forgot most of what info I learned about kibble for puppy roughly four years ago. But what I do remember is how important the calcium phos amounts and ratios to one another were and that was the driving force behind me choosing a food. At the time I fed her Chicken Soup adult food and she did well.

I wonder if there are any premade raw meals formulated for puppies out there to take some of the guesswork away?


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: little redYou are getting/will get opposing views concerning RAW diets in general,(the controversy isn't limited to just puppy diets) so ultimately you have to weigh all the evidence and do what you believe is best for you and your sweet little puppy.


Absolutely true!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: little redRhena, check out jeff_s 's thread, he is asking alot of the same questions so maybe that will also help you. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1002869&page=1#Post1002869
> 
> You are getting/will get opposing views concerning RAW diets in general,(the controversy isn't limited to just puppy diets) so ultimately you have to weigh all the evidence and do what you believe is best for you and your sweet little puppy. (when are you going to post some pics of her? she looks like my baby girl when she was young.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that link! I don't have any recent pics, but I'll scrounge around the computer here! (I noticed that you have had mostly WGSDs!)


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: natalie559
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RhenaWould you (or do you) have concerns that even though the kibble is "balanced," some of the nutrients and enzymes are not available because they are cooked or processed? (And therefore even though they are on both raw and kibble, they're not getting enough of the nutrients and enzymes in the best form?)
> ...


We looked at one place here that does premade raw meals -- but it was way too pricey and they didn't have different diets for puppies and adults.


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Rhena


 (I noticed that you have had mostly WGSDs!) [/quote]

Yes, I had 3 WGSDs until just recently. We just lost the big one to cancer last month. (thus our change to raw) He was the best dog ever. (my first dog) Eventually we want all the different colors (we think they are beautiful in all the varieties of coat) but for now we have found a local white breeder whose dogs we like.


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## lixy (Mar 14, 2007)

Feeding a puppy (or a dog) is NOT complicated...though the pet food industry would like you to believe you need advanced degrees to be able to figure it out.









Have you considered joining the Yahoo rawfeeding group?


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Jen -- Yes! I've joined it and have been combing it for posts about feeding puppies. Thanks for the suggestions!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Just a quick update. 

We're on day 3 of raw. She's been given a combination of chicken necks and chicken meat (breast, thigh, heart) three times a day. 

She loves 'em!

Her poops were a little hard and boney the first day and then she had one that was green, watery, and boney yesterday. We're chalking a lot of this up to residual kibble poop. 

We're gradually increasing the meat to bone ratio to see what works. This morning she was straining a lot and the poop was boney and hard, but this afternoon it was small, firm, only a little bone and she didn't strain uncomfortably. 

So it looks like we're on the right track for the right bone to meat ratio for her. We've increased her overall intake 'cause she was looking a little skinny. I think she's hit a growth spurt JUST as we started this diet. But she's already starting to look more muscle-y -- it's cool to watch how her running has changed even in the course of a day!








Yeah for small, firm, almost odorless poops!!







I kind of want to share with the people at the dog park, but I think they probably already think I'm a little strange! So I'm sharing here -- 'cause what's strange on the rest of the world seems to be pretty normal on these forums!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Rhena, 

That's great!







So happy to hear that everything is going well with Juno. Oh, and this forum is a great place to go over happy raw stories... everyone I know thinks I'm weird too.







I know how you feel, haha.


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## ellen366 (Nov 2, 2007)

rhena, i understand what you're saying about the poop; i'm still new to raw feeding and i'm LOVING the change in the poop; once i get my freezer, all of the dogs will be on raw; it really does make a difference and since i have fosters in the house, i'll do almost anything to make cleanup more pleasant, lol (i have a few older breeder dogs that simply do not want to be housetrained, lol)

i do have a question for the more experienced out there...why am i seeing whole bones in the poop? i see either the tibia or the fibula when i feed the chicken leg quarters; i know that one of the dogs is a bit of a gulper, so i'm trying to part freeze his stuff and force him to chew; any other ideas???

thanks


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSDRhena,
> 
> That's great!
> 
> ...


Glad I'm not the only one!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ellen366rhena, i understand what you're saying about the poop; i'm still new to raw feeding and i'm LOVING the change in the poop; once i get my freezer, all of the dogs will be on raw; it really does make a difference and since i have fosters in the house, i'll do almost anything to make cleanup more pleasant, lol (i have a few older breeder dogs that simply do not want to be housetrained, lol)
> 
> i do have a question for the more experienced out there...why am i seeing whole bones in the poop? i see either the tibia or the fibula when i feed the chicken leg quarters; i know that one of the dogs is a bit of a gulper, so i'm trying to part freeze his stuff and force him to chew; any other ideas???
> 
> thanks


I am SO not the expert here... so hopefully someone else will chime in...

BUT I have been doing a lot of raw feeding poop reading and apparently it's pretty common to find pieces of bone in the poop during the beginning phases of raw feeding. Their stomachs are apparently building up the bone digesting enzymes (or something....). Juno had little neck vertebrae the first few days and I was a little worried -- but all the reading I did said that it's totally normal.


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Rhena
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSDRhena,
> ...


Yes, safety in numbers! Glad to be part of the group.
And congratulations to all my fellow new RAw feeders. Never thought I would enjoy so much the following: tracking poop, watching my dogs eat, looking to see what other RAW feeders are saying, and preparing these all meat meals. What a brave new world!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

little red,

Can I just say quickly (and this is totally off topic) that I am SO jealous that you have a Siamese and a Bengal. I have wanted a purebred Siamese my whole life. Although I have a Manx x Siamese at home and could swear my current cat from the shelter is part Siamese and, who knows, maybe Bengal too... (he has the spots!) I still hope to have a pure bread Siamese some day... but back to the topic, yay raw!

I need to go shopping... hope I can find some good deals for Jerz.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm not sure if this is going to help or hinder the impression I give people for being strange, but I thought some here might appreciate a pic of Juno eating her first raw meal:


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## drkcloud4u (Jan 7, 2006)

lol cute!


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Your puppy is beautiful! Love the green wall color too. My kitchen is a shade of green.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Quote:Narm narm crunch narm mrrm crunch ... (gulp)
> 
> MORE Please!!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Drkcloud, thanks!

Natalie, thanks! I don't know why I love green for a kitchen -- just seems sort of cheerful.

Lauri, you speak raw-fed doggish!


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

Oh my gosh, how simply satisfying that looks. Rhena is so gorgeous! The photo is very reassuring to me.


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## Little Red (Jan 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: little red
> Oh my gosh, how simply satisfying that looks. Rhena is so gorgeous! The photo is very reassuring to me.


Sorry Rhena, I meant that Juno is gorgeous! (I'm sure that you are lovely too!)


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