# Off Leash Training



## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

HI ALL, 

I've been working off leash with our pup for the last couple weeks and have been looking for tips and tactics used. I tried searching for a thread specifically on off leash training but wasn't too successful so if there is one, please direct me. 

My primary tool has been treats and an ecollar to keep his focus but I feel like there's more I can do that I haven't read, seen, watched, etc. So any tips and advice would be appreciated. 

Some things I do with the remote and treats in hand: 
-Put Ziggy in a down stay when distractions (bikes, runners, dogs) cross our path and reward/praise since I haven't been able to keep walking without him reacting. 
-Keep repeating heel when he gets ahead of me in our walks but will buzz him if I feel its gets too repetitive. 
-Use a flirt pole at the park and reward/praise when he ignores a passerby
-Recall when he's engaged with other dogs or people and then release to re-engage. 

I've used the remote more times than mentioned above so I'm sure there's lots more i'm doing right and wrong but I just wanted the boards input. 

TIA


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

You have made a lot of progress especially with the distractions. I would suggest turning suddenly when Ziggy gets ahead of you, you could say the command at the same time and then use the remote. Also if you are not already doing so when using the remote, be sure that he doesn't connect it with you. So when you use it, and he stops - turns toward you - praise him.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I do have an e collar fail story you may find interesting.As most of us know,timing is crucial when giving corrections and my collar has a couple of seconds of delay.So I set out to train one thing but ended up training another.

Samson decided last winter it was fun chasing cars that would drive by the house.He blew off my Leave It and recall until the car was past our property.So I recruited a neighbor to drive by with the plan of stimming him as soon as his ears perked up at the sound of the car passing by.

By the time he felt the stim he was already in hot pursuit.He'd stop and look confused so I'd yell Leave It! and call him back.Three days and three training sessions and his recall is amazing but he's still too interested in the cars.He obeys a leave it or a stay,but if he hears a car before I do he will still rush to the edge of the yard and stop.And if we are actively playing or training he doesn't show any interest.I have to be super vigilant still,so it was still a fail.But if I call him he stops whatever he's doing and runs to me full out,happy as can be

That's all I've used the collar for.When we're out in the woods he checks in with me every couple of minutes,never a problem calling him off of the occasional deer or rabbit.We've met up with an ATV on occasion and he shows no interest.Just the cars in front of the house.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

For e-collar training, Lou Castle, who is a member, has a website: 
Home

The site does have an article on recall training and also a forum that may have the answer and give you further information.

If you haven't already done so, try searching in the Leerburg site in the articles and question/answer sections.

Leerburg | 17,500 pages of dog training information, 935 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Mary Beth said:


> You have made a lot of progress especially with the distractions. I would suggest turning suddenly when Ziggy gets ahead of you, you could say the command at the same time and then use the remote. Also if you are not already doing so when using the remote, be sure that he doesn't connect it with you. So when you use it, and he stops - turns toward you - praise him.


since i've removed the leash he's been about a short leash length away either to the side or front. now when i use the leash he's definitely pulling. i'll start new routes around a park to keep him guessing. thanks for the reminder. 



dogma13 said:


> By the time he felt the stim he was already in hot pursuit.He'd stop and look confused so I'd yell Leave It! and call him back.Three days and three training sessions and his recall is amazing but he's still too interested in the cars.He obeys a leave it or a stay,but if he hears a car before I do he will still rush to the edge of the yard and stop.And if we are actively playing or training he doesn't show any interest.I have to be super vigilant still,so it was still a fail.But if I call him he stops whatever he's doing and runs to me full out,happy as can be


we're in the same boat, we'll be in the middle of his favorite game and if a passerby comes he'll face them and still engage with me at the same time. its a lot better now than when he would run to greet them....baby steps i suppose.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

just an update on our off leash training. ziggy has been off leash since early this summer. this weekend he attacked the neighbor's dog who was leashed during a walk, he even went after a very familiar packmate during his rage. fortunately, no one bit each other. were now confined to backyard duty and on-leash training starting back a zero (or minus 100 imo). i'm estimating he will be about 3 years old before he acts like an adult dog. we're in month 19 of 36. oy! trainer scheduled for a home visit this weekend. as always tips / suggestions welcome.


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

dang!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Well darn it!One step forward two steps back sometimes.
I've realized something interesting about Samson this summer.He's 2.5yrs old now and so much more responsive to what I want him to do.He actually seems comforted by being given commands when he's feeling a little anxious.It calms him when I make decisions for him.
Last week we were walking in town and got rushed by a dog that (thankfully) was tethered in a front yard.Samson jumped in front of me and growled.Eh!heel! and we didn't miss a step.Never touched the leash which was draped over my shoulders.Samson had no way of knowing the dog was tethered,it stopped just a few feet away.But he obeyed,recovered his composure immediately, and trusted me and boy does that feel great!Maturity and practice?I don't know.I'm sure you'll get Ziggy where you want him to be.You are a very patient and determined individual.Looking forward to more updates!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> just an update on our off leash training. ziggy has been off leash since early this summer. this weekend he attacked the neighbor's dog who was leashed during a walk, he even went after a very familiar packmate during his rage. fortunately, no one bit each other. were now confined to backyard duty and on-leash training starting back a zero (or minus 100 imo). i'm estimating he will be about 3 years old before he acts like an adult dog. we're in month 19 of 36. oy! trainer scheduled for a home visit this weekend. as always tips / suggestions welcome.


Were you using the e collar around other dogs early on?


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

yes. i've noticed lately he's been non-responsive to the higher pulse corrections. probably will need to work with him at 70+ on the dogtra when he's excited.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What was your method with the e collar? It's possible he got a superstitious association that stim came from a dog near him if you stimmed him close to another dog and he didn't understand. I have seen dogs look at a tree branch of other object near them suspiciously after being stimmed.

Could be unrelated, too.

Might want to lay off the collar for a little bit and just do foundations with a long line with your trainer, unless your trainer is good at e collars?


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

good point. i'll bring it up and see if he agrees.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

hi all just wanted to vent a little and share. its been a few weeks and we still have a long way to go but we've made some progress w ziggy ignoring some stimulations. this morning we were approached by two loose dogs , as soon as i saw them i knew this wasn't going to end well. i tried to treat the situation like a dog park and let them get acquainted but as soon as i recalled Z, he goes on the offensive and draws a reaction from the other dogs. now there's a melee in the middle of the street. fortunately it was nothing more than a pissing match but it wasn't something i needed. back to the drawing board... UGH


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

dogma13 said:


> I do have an e collar fail story you may find interesting.As most of us know,timing is crucial when giving corrections and my collar has a couple of seconds of delay.So I set out to train one thing but ended up training another.
> 
> Samson decided last winter it was fun chasing cars that would drive by the house.He blew off my Leave It and recall until the car was past our property.So I recruited a neighbor to drive by with the plan of stimming him as soon as his ears perked up at the sound of the car passing by.
> 
> ...


Does he ever get to practice chasing cars when you aren't around? Maybe through a fence or something to that effect? 

Sounds like you're doing something wrong in your procedure. The timing sounds correct in that you are catching and correcting him and the earliest precursor of behavior but you're not stopping the behavior from progressing. Stopping progression is critical otherwise it's kinda akin to a dog learning to blow through an e collar fence.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Does he ever get to practice chasing cars when you aren't around? Maybe through a fence or something to that effect?
> 
> Sounds like you're doing something wrong in your procedure. The timing sounds correct in that you are catching and correcting him and the earliest precursor of behavior but you're not stopping the behavior from progressing. Stopping progression is critical otherwise it's kinda akin to a dog learning to blow through an e collar fence.


We don't have a fence,he took off two or three times after cars when I was out in the yard with him.So I kept him leashed for a few days until the e collar was procured.All three dogs are way too interested in cars and people that pass by our house,they will try to stop and watch even in the middle of a game.We are in the boonies so not much traffic.
He has totally stopped chasing now and if we are outside alone he doesn't show any interest in cars at all.So maybe it's a "me first" pack thing.IDK.
He will get very agitated at the occasional person walking by and even though I can quiet him he's still tense.He has rushed toward walkers a couple of times and I'm super vigilant that it never happens again.People so rarely walk by that I really don't know how how to correct it.This is only at home, not if we're out walking.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Ziggy,
You can not start off leash training until the dog is 100% reliable on leash. I would really caution against some of the websites mentioned and the program that they utilize. The best thing is to get with a good, experienced trainer and work wth them. 

I'm sorry, but starting a pup with an collar, off lead and treats is a disaster waiting to happen, IMHO. 

Dogma, if your Collar has a couple of seconds of delay, I would recommend sending it back to the manufacturer to be serviced, or to toss it in the garbage. An E collar with more than a fraction of second delay is really worthless. If the correction is not instantaneous the collar is unreliable and needs to be replaced. It is not worth using an E collar with any noticeable delay.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> yes. i've noticed lately he's been non-responsive to the higher pulse corrections. probably will need to work with him at 70+ on the dogtra when he's excited.


Please do not do this! Get some help from a good trainer and some guidance on how to use an E collar. There is a lot wrong with your approach and what you are doing with the E collar. 

Do your dog a favor, put away the E collar and work with a skilled trainer.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> There is a lot wrong with your approach and what you are doing with the E collar.


what's wrong with the approach? trainer is with working with us and haven't advised us differently. what do you recommend or see that is wrong?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Ziggy,
*what's wrong with the approach? trainer is with working with us and haven't advised us differently. what do you recommend or see that is wrong?*


The use of an E collar in the manner that you described. Working on off lead training before on leash training is extremely reliable. Your mention of cranking the Dogtra up to 70 to get a response when the dog is in drive. Those are the things that I disagree with. 

I would work on focus, and engagement. I would teach the recall in a way that is fun and lays a foundation for a super fast and reliable recall. I would teach the dog to heal well on leash, not be reactive to other animals or distractions. I would teach a reliable sit / stay and down stay. Then, and only then would I begin off lead training. Once the dog is taught, trained and proofed with a long line and is better than 85% reliable I would consider an Collar for you and your dog. 

If you have a trainer that agrees with your approach and wants to start out by cranking up the E collar, do some more research and find a more qualified trainer. The whole approach that you mentioned is taking to many shortcuts to be reliable down the road. It only takes a few months to gain excellent reliable OB on a dog. I just trained a GSD in 11 sessions to do everything that you want your dog to do. The dog is also super happy, super motivated and never wants to leave his handlers side. The dog was dog aggressive and leash reactive when we started. The dog now walks happily on a leash, recalls are super fast even with other dogs present, and no longer reacts or barks at other dogs. This was done primarily motivationally, no E collar and in 3 months. The dog is now 14 months old. There was no need to wait until the dog was 3 years old to expect it to behave, heel or recall reliably. The main the dog has in it's favor is an owner that works with his dog every day and does it in a manner that lays a good foundation and each session builds on the last. 

I'm sure the owner of the dog would give me a lot of credit, he already has. But, the fact of the matter is that all I did was show him how to work with his dog, praise his dog, pay his dog for the right behaviors and guide him. Many folks (like you) are hung up on the tools and the corrections and miss out on the power of praise, reward and payment. That does more to train a dog than a Dogtra at 70. 

Please don't take my posts personally, I am not trying to offend you. I can only respond to what you posted as I do not know you or your dog. I do know a little about dog training and E collars, though. Planning on getting an E collar and going to 70 is really a bad plan. You also need to properly condition your dog to the E collar for the training to be effective. Just going higher is a really bad idea and really poor training, IMHO.


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## LittleBear (Apr 1, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> Ziggy,
> *what's wrong with the approach? trainer is with working with us and haven't advised us differently. what do you recommend or see that is wrong?*
> 
> 
> ...


I honestly feel this is solid advice, I know nothing about ecollars, but building the proper foundation before you do off leash work makes a lot of sense to me, and is what I am slowly working toward.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Ziggy,
> *what's wrong with the approach? trainer is with working with us and haven't advised us differently. what do you recommend or see that is wrong?*
> 
> 
> ...


no offense taken. ziggy was better than 85% reliable at month 8. looking back we probably started to slack on training when the baby came and he progressively gotten less reliable. he was at a point where he would wait for me to release him to greet the neighbors dog. and his playful barks or what i thought was a gesture for play became aggressive/reactive. my comment to jack it up to 70 was probably out of frustration but i agree in using it that high doesn't serve him anything but pain. i'll refrain from using it but can i use it when he's gone full ape-sht like after our incident? also what do you think about finding implementing a shutzhund style of training to refocus his aggression?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

ZiggytheSheprador said:


> no offense taken. ziggy was better than 85% reliable at month 8. looking back we probably started to slack on training when the baby came and he progressively gotten less reliable. he was at a point where he would wait for me to release him to greet the neighbors dog. and his playful barks or what i thought was a gesture for play became aggressive/reactive. my comment to jack it up to 70 was probably out of frustration but i agree in using it that high doesn't serve him anything but pain. i'll refrain from using it but can i use it when he's gone full ape-sht like after our incident? also what do you think about finding implementing a shutzhund style of training to refocus his aggression?


Ziggy,
The time to use the correction is while the dog is thinking about going "ape ****" or just before. Once the dog has gone into a full rage you have missed the opportunity to easily correct the behavior. Then it becomes very hard to manage and handle, as you have seen. That is why the focus and engagement is so important. 

You must be very careful using an E collar while a dog is in high drive and being aggressive. The pain induced correction could easily escalate the rage and intensify the situation. Some dogs will become even more aggressive and may redirect to the handler. That is why cranking up the collar could actually make the situation worse. If the dog is on lead, you could wind up getting bit. Some dogs gets anxious, out of control and aggressive when approached by another dog. If you stim the dog on an high level you could easily kick that aggression up to a whole new level, especially if the dog is not conditioned to the collar properly. 

A Schutzhund club would be an awesome alternative, even if you just go for the obedience portion. Through IPO training your dog would learn self control and also a very positive way to handle your dog when he is in drive. If there is a good club that you could visit it would be very worthwhile.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> Ziggy,
> The time to use the correction is while the dog is thinking about going "ape ****" or just before. Once the dog has gone into a full rage you have missed the opportunity to easily correct the behavior. Then it becomes very hard to manage and handle, as you have seen. That is why the focus and engagement is so important.
> 
> You must be very careful using an E collar while a dog is in high drive and being aggressive. The pain induced correction could easily escalate the rage and intensify the situation. Some dogs will become even more aggressive and may redirect to the handler. That is why cranking up the collar could actually make the situation worse. If the dog is on lead, you could wind up getting bit. Some dogs gets anxious, out of control and aggressive when approached by another dog. If you stim the dog on an high level you could easily kick that aggression up to a whole new level, especially if the dog is not conditioned to the collar properly.
> ...


i've heard and applied all the same strategies and tips you mentioned, but sometimes i do need a reminder. thanks again for your help. keep in touch as i will continue to update.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

First, I'm not an expert here so I don't want to come off wrong. I don't ever go off leash away from my yard until I have a completely 100% solid stay. And that stay is from sitting, downing and standing. It's also when given the command as I keep walking. I start with using my kids and then other kids both at my house and then away from my house. I have the kids do everything they can to call my dog to them from calling them to playing with a ball right in front of them.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

latest update. training has gone to the pits. i've slacked off a little (or alot) and ziggy might as well be the worst dog in the neighborhood. (slight exaggeration) but everything has reverted. i'm now raising two defiant toddler who's idea of fun is see how loud i can make my dad yell. on a brighter note, Z did jump in front of the baby when i chased him with a fake snake.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Are you working with a trainer??? I won't say one can't figure it out themselves with information available online ... as I am want to say "there is always that guy." 

So that say and with more in the way of observations then advise ... I prefer to keep it simple. It seems like your using an E- Collar on your own and having issues?? So asking for help is excellent and you seem to be getting it but .... what happens and I would imagine "especially" with an E-Collar is you tend to lose focus on your dog and concentrate more on the tool?? 

Recall can be tricky in any case but relying on a tool your working to get the hang off and allowing your dog off leash in the process is kinda tricky. COntinue to use and figure it out if you chose but it would be wise to have a "Plan B."

As has been mentioned train a "Down and Stay!" I always train that first (now) myself before I even think about allowing a dog off leash! Learned that bit from Boxers. Recall takes to much "Processing and Boxers move fast! Recall means ... Stop doing what I'm doing ... Turn ... Around ...and Go Back??? Stay is a lot easier and Down keeps them there! 

Then you can recall or go to the dog, and leash them up if required. You could train that a "Down/Stay"and still work on the E-Collar thing. And yes ... on paper it should not be necessary but your kinda sorta allowing your dog to make to many poor choices while you figure the E-Collar thing out. One of those mistakes could cost you your dog.


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Are you working with a trainer??? I won't say one can't figure it out themselves with information available online ... as I am want to say "there is always that guy."
> 
> So that say and with more in the way of observations then advise ... I prefer to keep it simple. It seems like your using an E- Collar on your own and having issues?? So asking for help is excellent and you seem to be getting it but .... what happens and I would imagine "especially" with an E-Collar is you tend to lose focus on your dog and concentrate more on the tool??
> 
> ...


Yes we work with a trainer but we get lazy and they're not cheap. So we give him a call every once in awhile. We had another episode of Ziggy getting loose and running after some joggers but they didn't have a dog with them so he came back. OY


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## ZiggytheSheprador (May 6, 2015)

Out of curiosity, does anyone else have a pup that acts better behaved around trainers or handlers than their own owners 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Most dogs respond well and quickly to an experienced handler or trainer, far better than their owner. There have been many times that I have taken someone's dog or puppy and quickly had the dog behaving and working well. With pet owners it is really easy to take a dog and show how the dog should work or heel. When running Patrol schools or working with K-9 Handlers I will often take the leash and demonstrate with their own dog how an exercise should be taught or performed. The look on their face is priceless when they have been trying to train a behavior and I can do it with their dog in a minute. 

It's all technique and experience.


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## Rubyjane77 (May 27, 2018)

I’m no trainer but I’ve successfully trained my previous dog (a Labrador) and present dog (a GSD) but it could be most due to my picking if dogs based on their temperament. 

First I make sure to socialize them first. Get them used to their environment, strangers approaching, kids, cats, other small animals, etc. Make sure he can ignore them and focus more on my voice. Most important is that my dog recognize and is consistent with “heel”, “leave it” and “come”. Take him out on leash first and ensure he is consistent on listening to me. I go from regular leash to long leash. I don’t like prongs or e-collars. Training collars is enough for me. (I just don’t think it is necessary esp if my dog is gentle and easygoing.)

I start off leash at home /yard then I move on to very early morning where there is likely less distractions. If he is consistent then I’m confident he can manage off leash anywhere (where it’s allowed). 

If your dog is even slightly aggressive or his drive is too strong best not risk it. 

Again I will emphasize that it’s more the pups I picked than my method. I want to make sure it’s a dog that I can handle. 

I had a trainer for my first dog who showed me how to teach and handle a dog. And I had tried and failed With smaller and more stubborn dogs. I finally learn to pick a dog that wants to listen.


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## Marklin81 (Aug 25, 2018)

If you intend to prevent a dog from pulling on the leash, the best way is to avoid retractable leash at all cost. Always check on your dog’s collar before using them. Make sure they are comfortable and perfect fit. The collar should be a little bit loose; tight collars are likely to choke your dog hence create the discomfort which leads them to be unsettled thus leading to the pulling while walking them. Most people prefer a harness to a collar. The harness directs all the pressure to the dogs back instead of the neck that’s why I would recommend it for proper leash training. This makes it easier to train your pet by avoiding choking when it pulls you on the leash.


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