# Addition of carbs to a raw diet



## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Went to a holistic vet the other day and was able to discuss the workings of a raw diet. I recently had a similar discussion with the vet ( anti raw ) I have used for years....there was one opinion that they did share...and that was the topic of starchy/carbs in the diet. The holistic vet seemed well versed on the subject and stated that over the evolution of the domesticated canine versus a wolf...that the dog has developed a genome which includes genes which are applicable to the breakdown and utilization of starch and carbs...something I previously had believed had no benefit in a dog's diet.

So, the batch of raw I am making tomorrow will have the addition of 5-7% of sweet potatoes (pureed). The holistic vet suggested the sweet potatoes as a good addition ( for numerous reasons ) if I were to add anything to her diet as a carb.

I would appreciate any opinions..good, bad or indifferent...as my mission is to feed my dog the best diet I can provide.


Thanks,

SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I give veges and fruits. I just try to make them count. Broccoli, Spinach, Summer Squashes, Pumpkin, Apples, Blueberries, Raspberries.

To me, it's not about adding the carbs. It's about adding the vitamins and minerals these foods have that meats do not. I typically give a spoonful about the size of an ice cube per day.


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## Traveler's Mom (Sep 24, 2012)

Funny you should bring this up. Our holistic vet poo poo'd the whole grain free idea saying it was just a craze. That may be true or not but she gave me the same explanation as yours did. What I will say is that I don't feed grains to Traveler but almost every grain free kibble I've looked at has either sweet or white potatoes in it. I feed raw at dinner and kibble for breakfast.

One of Traveler's favorite additions to his dinner is a cooked and cooled sweet potato.

Lynn & Traveler

The sweet potatoes are fed with the skin on.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think the grain free thing is a marketing gimmick. They replace grains with peas and put a high price tag on it.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I give cubed cooked sweet potato with the skin often. I find it works better than pumpkin keeping her poop solid. She likes it better than pureed pumpkin, too.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I think of it this way - just because dogs may have evolved to have a genome which can break down and utilize carbs, do they need them? Just because they can, doesn't mean carbs are necessary. Just like dogs can extract nutrients from kibble, but is it ideal?
I do give my dogs veggies, fruits, carbs as treats, and I am known to cook up a pot of sweet potatoes for them. But I don't consider it part of their diet. And when I get to thinking of what is the best foods for them I look at my raw fed dogs who get very little carbs, look at my breeders dogs, think of the people I know who have been breeding and feeding raw for 30 years or more. Super healthy generations of dogs who seem to have thrived despite not having carbs - even if they do have a genome that can squeeze a nutrient out of a carb.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Appreciate the replies....thank you.

At least 2 responses have included " cooked "....is there a benefit to cooking it ? I have heard that potatoes..not sweet taters...need to be cooked for some reason.

Anyway, I pureed an uncooked skin on sweet potato with a bit of greek yogurt ( not much ) and a clove of garlic....I'll slap some on her raw dinner and proceed from there..probably a total of 1/3 to a 1/2 a smaller sweet potato. 

I have to laugh at myself regarding my paranoia or whatever it is regarding what I feed her. Oh, the upside is...I learned that a yams and sweet potatoes are not the same...sweet potatoes seem to be superior in nutrition compared to a yam.

StuporG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dog's lack the enzymes needed to break down raw fruits and veges. They have to be processed in some way to break down the cell walls. Frozen, cooked, pureed.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Um. How many millions of yrs has it taken for dogs to evolve to carbs? Or a few generations from the 50's when kibble was intro'd?

How come their teeth and jaw movement haven't evolved with


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## Flutter (Aug 2, 2013)

Evolution happens by random genetic mutation and natural selection, genetics don't change in response to something. Studies have shown that dogs have been around people for about 150,000 years though the majority of domestication has taken place in the last few thousand. 

Dogs do produce amylase and are able to gain nutrition from carbohydrates. It does differ by breed with more ancestral breeds like the Basenji producing very little amylase.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Mikelia said:


> I think of it this way - just because dogs may have evolved to have a genome which can break down and utilize carbs, do they need them? Just because they can, doesn't mean carbs are necessary. Just like dogs can extract nutrients from kibble, but is it ideal?
> I do give my dogs veggies, fruits, carbs as treats, and I am known to cook up a pot of sweet potatoes for them. But I don't consider it part of their diet. And when I get to thinking of what is the best foods for them I look at my raw fed dogs who get very little carbs, look at my breeders dogs, think of the people I know who have been breeding and feeding raw for 30 years or more. Super healthy generations of dogs who seem to have thrived despite not having carbs - even if they do have a genome that can squeeze a nutrient out of a carb.



You are preaching to the choir....mostly. This departure from my normal raw diet approach was brought on by my recent yearly visit to the vet...my dog received a perfect score along with some "wows" on her musculature and all that "feel good" stuff you hope to hear from your vet regarding their health. However, when we came to discussion on her diet, it was as if the 5 star health review never existed.....really threw me for a loop. The nature of the conversation changed to..."well just because she is significantly fit externally does not mean the same internally...." I was prepared thanks to Jax ( forum member ) and had already intended to have blood work done on her because they were drawing blood for some heartworm test anyways. The vet's severe challenging of the diet caused me reason to investigate further than I previously had ( the vet did mention the absence of carbs )...so I went and saw a holistic vet for a "wellness" exam with the intention of talking turkey ( raw of course ). This vet concurred in a milder fashion regarding carbs...not essential...but the dog has the body chemistry to assimilate them.

I figure..if I can add a few pounds on my dog with the addition of quality nutrients...I'll try the addition of carbs ( sweet potatoes ) and maybe some others which are of similar quality....or I could just come to my senses and continue as normal since it seems to be working so wonderfully.

Just want the best for my bud,

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Flutter said:


> Evolution happens by random genetic mutation and natural selection, genetics don't change in response to something. Studies have shown that dogs have been around people for about 150,000 years though the majority of domestication has taken place in the last few thousand.
> 
> Dogs do produce amylase and are able to gain nutrition from carbohydrates. It does differ by breed with more ancestral breeds like the Basenji producing very little amylase.



You speak the truth......


SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

GatorBytes said:


> How come their teeth and jaw movement haven't evolved with


\



What fun would a GSD be without it's set of chompers ???


I agree with your premise...and am just testing my convictions....your input makes sense.


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here you go, Super G
Pondering Produce For Pooches | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Here you go, Super G
> Pondering Produce For Pooches | Dogs Naturally Magazine


Thanks....now ya tell me...just got done making a 60 lb batch of "raw" with about 4-6% of pureed sweet potatoes added....

I figured I'd give it a try by adding some starchy carbs from a supposedly reasonable source. Hopefully, the nutrients will be beneficial. I'll see what happens...so far so good..

Question for all : have you ever heard that the X-ray images for a raw fed dog vs a kibble fed dog come back differently regarding the skeletal system?


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Doesn't your girl have issues keeping weight on? If so, those starchy sweet potatoes may be the key.

Nope, have not heard the skeletal system is different. Are you asking or have you seen xrays and documentation?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Doesn't your girl have issues keeping weight on? If so, those starchy sweet potatoes may be the key.
> 
> Nope, have not heard the skeletal system is different. Are you asking or have you seen xrays and documentation?



Yes, the addition was to put a few on her...I have upped the fat content by about 5% and now adding the starchy carbs. 

My regular vet has made this imagery remark at least 3 times over the past 1 1/2 years, ever since I disclosed I was feeding raw...never should have opened my mouth..I just should have said I am feeding her the brand you have in those big shiny bags for sale in your waiting area. This last time when the vet said the same remark, I just said " yes, you have said that numerous times"....my failing was to ask why....I can't find anything doing my normal Dr. Google routine either ?????




SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'd like to talk to an actual orthopedic vet on their thoughts on that. Not a single one of my vets have commented on my dogs diet. I asked one of them once if they cringed when I said I fed raw. The response from Dr. A was "no, not when they do their research and I know you have." 

They have credited a raw diet with saving my Himalayan's teeth. He had to have two pulled and by his age most have none left. They have credited my Boxer's longevity of 13 years and quality of life to the raw diet. They love the way my dogs look. Loved the way my cat looks.

I would make that vet provide the scientific, peer reviewed, documentation to back up his statement. Especially when so little research has actually been done on animals fed raw.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I had already worked the vet over enough at that point.....I was tempted...and now I am even more tempted as I can't find anything regarding that particular claim regarding X-rays...didn't do an exhaustive search however.

Something I did find out at the other vet (holistic) was during the exam the vet was commenting on the cleanliness of my dog's ears.. I guess I hadn't even thought about it....I mentioned I have only cleaned them out maybe once or twice over the past year or two..the vet then stated that this was another benefit of a raw diet....something regarding the connection between yeast and kibble ( components ).

Anyway, if you should see me starting to add more and more carbs, starches, grains etc to my dog's diet over the future....make sure and slap some sense into me. 

SuperG


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I don't believe that dogs really need fruit and veg BUT I do believe commercial meat is lacking a lot of nutrients from wild game animals.

So I supplement with fish oil and I also use feed sentials to bring in some of those extra nutrients but I don't feed fruit and veg on a regular basis because it also causes more stool volume. But I say if you're dog will eat and is doing well then go for it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SuperG said:


> I had already worked the vet over enough at that point.....I was tempted...and now I am even more tempted as I can't find anything regarding that particular claim regarding X-rays...didn't do an exhaustive search however.
> 
> Something I did find out at the other vet (holistic) was during the exam the vet was commenting on the cleanliness of my dog's ears.. I guess I hadn't even thought about it....I mentioned I have only cleaned them out maybe once or twice over the past year or two..the vet then stated that this was another benefit of a raw diet....something regarding the connection between yeast and kibble ( components ).
> 
> ...


lol I think your old vet was spouting myths. He would have to explain why so many sport dogs, raised on raw, are in such fantastic physical condition if his claim is that the bones are weaker.

I think dogs with a sensitivity are prone to yeast overgrowth. I'm not convinced that has to do with a raw diet. More about specific ingredients. My raw fed since birth dog had a yeast overgrowth in his ears. Our kibble fed Boxers, with ears that droop so are more prone to yeast, have never had an issue. And they were fed Purina crap for years.

I would not worry about adding carbs, starches, etc to their diet. Think about it in terms of nutrients rather than types of food.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Carriesue said:


> I don't believe that dogs really need fruit and veg BUT I do believe commercial meat is lacking a lot of nutrients from wild game animals.
> 
> So I supplement with fish oil and I also use feed sentials to bring in some of those extra nutrients but I don't feed fruit and veg on a regular basis because it also causes more stool volume. But I say if you're dog will eat and is doing well then go for it.


I am supplementing as well....some dog vitamins, fish oil, vitamin E, salmon, sardines, egg shells and yolks etc. The more I think about the situation I am trying to affect, I think I just need more fat in her diet....which I have slowly upped. For all I know, my dog might have a rather high metabolism rate like myself ?? I was surprised to learn that sled dog's at times will have a raw diet with up to 50% plus fat in it. Below is an excerpt from this link The Nutritional Requirements of Exercising Dogs

" In dogs undertaking endurance exercise, such as sled dogs, high fat (>50% of energy) diets increase stamina and maximize energy production, and high protein (>30% of energy) diets prevent training-induced anemia."

Now, my GSD is not a sled dog and not working nearly that hard but she gets worked harder than any of my last 3 dogs....she's about 25 inches at the withers and 82 lbs...which is above standard for a bitch...but is all muscle. I can feel her ribs but not to the extent that she is emaciated...I just think she could use a bit more "padding on her rib cage area....both vets stated that she is lean but very muscular...

I am guessing her diet up until recently has been less than 20% fat if even that...so that is why I am upping the fat and adding the carbs/starch crap to her food.....time will tell if this change is proper ???

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> if his claim is that the bones are weaker.
> 
> 
> I would not worry about adding carbs, starches, etc to their diet. Think about it in terms of nutrients rather than types of food.


The vet didn't cite "weaker" just the fact that they do not appear as clearly ( or different ) in an X-ray as compared to a kibble fed dog....I was tempted to ask.."so you mean raw fed dogs are boneless like the chickens at the Boneless chicken ranch?"


I think you are exactly correct...it is the nutrients in the carbs/starches I am most concerned about...I guess that is why I chose sweet potatoes for the first round....they do sound like they have many quality nutrients in them besides just starch and carbs.

Thanks,


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Go with greens.  Broccoli LEAVES are loaded with nutrients.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

SuperG said:


> I am supplementing as well....some dog vitamins, fish oil, vitamin E, salmon, sardines, egg shells and yolks etc. The more I think about the situation I am trying to affect, I think I just need more fat in her diet....which I have slowly upped. For all I know, my dog might have a rather high metabolism rate like myself ?? I was surprised to learn that sled dog's at times will have a raw diet with up to 50% plus fat in it. Below is an excerpt from this link The Nutritional Requirements of Exercising Dogs
> 
> " In dogs undertaking endurance exercise, such as sled dogs, high fat (>50% of energy) diets increase stamina and maximize energy production, and high protein (>30% of energy) diets prevent training-induced anemia."
> 
> ...


I don't like extra padding, with a lean in shape dog you should be able to easily feel at least the last few ribs. My 2 year old intact male is in great shape, he is 25' at the whither and 73lbs, I can feel his ribs and spine.. as long as you can't see them prominently protruding you should be good. We're so used to seeing fat dogs nowadays that people think lean athletic dogs are too thin.

I don't purposely add fat but I do feed lots of beef and pork because he's a bit of a harder keeper. Your girl sounds perfect!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Carriesue said:


> We're so used to seeing fat dogs nowadays that people think lean athletic dogs are too thin.



I'm going with that.....

Once again thanks for entertaining my paranoia and beating a dead horse.

Lean and mean....it's the way to go...too many benefits and few if any inherent problems.


SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Here you go, Super G
> Pondering Produce For Pooches | Dogs Naturally Magazine


Very interesting article. regarding this part:"But leading wolf experts have actually found that when wolves bring down a large herbivore, they shake the stomach contents out of the stomach lining before consumption. And if they were to consume an entire small prey animal, only a small amount of vegetation would be consumed.", 
Deja shakes the entire raw piece of green tripe forcibly before cutting it into swallow-able pieces (I have to keep a safe distance!). I guess she still knows how to go about this and is not aware of this extra gene..


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> Very interesting article. regarding this part:"But leading wolf experts have actually found that when wolves bring down a large herbivore, they shake the stomach contents out of the stomach lining before consumption. And if they were to consume an entire small prey animal, only a small amount of vegetation would be consumed.",
> Deja shakes the entire raw piece of green tripe forcibly before cutting it into swallow-able pieces (I have to keep a safe distance!). I guess she still knows how to go about this and is not aware of this extra gene..



Thank you....I just read that today as well as part of my attempts to educate myself....

Okay...the mental imagery of your Deja shaking the green tripe as you describe makes me laugh....getting splattered with green tripe goo juice would make a scent-sational impression if you went out and about in public...Interesting however that she still exhibits the behavior described in the article...but not overly surprising. Never dealt with animal stomachs that much before feeding a dog raw. Over the past couple of years, I guess I have grown used to the aroma....dog still loves it, every time. 

I think the difference in the genetics cited had to do more with the additional genes which marked a dog's body chemistry abilities to break down carbs/starches which the wolf's genetics did not include. All I know is...my current shepherd is thriving on a raw diet in so many ways compared to my previous 2 kibble fed...and now that I am bastardizing the diet ( a wee bit )...am I compromising my dog's well being? I think CarrieSue and Jax pounded some sense into my head....BUT..here I go again..any of you...first time you fed raw..didn't you have any doubts regarding the fact that you were doing the absolute best you could diet wise? I'm sure we all feed our dogs this way because we believe it is a superior diet with obvious benefits....but since it is not an exact science and put into a "bag" by our good friends in the dog food industry..and certainly no mainstream "blessing" by the highly educated and skilled veterinarian community...it leaves doubts in my own mind that I am providing adequately...just want to do the absolute best for my girl....so I bother you poor souls for info and your observations based on your *experiences*...



SuperG


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

SuperG said:


> getting splattered with green tripe goo juice would make a scent-sational impression
> 
> 
> SuperG


scent-sational was getting to visit the Greentripe.com facility. Talk about a sensory overload...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

mspiker03 said:


> scent-sational was getting to visit the Greentripe.com facility. Talk about a sensory overload...



They call that "country air".......depending on the wind.


SuperG


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I wish greentripe.com would sell it in chunks. I order from them if my own butcher doesn't have whole tripes. I never doubted feeding raw. Deja's breeder has been doing this forever, also raising the pups that way and all his dogs look awesome. I followed his protocol blindly to get some confidence and now add some variation. The rest she'll find in the form of deer poop and other goodies in the forest where we live.
I love feeding her the raw tripe. I don't mind the smell at all. It smells like the old style cow barns from my childhood.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've always added tripe to give my dogs the 'green' part of the raw diet. Recently, I've been making a veggie stew for Karlo. I simmer a pound of frozen mixed veggies, drain, add more water and then add in a 1/2 bag of pearled tapioca, continue to simmer til thickened. After that cools, I add 2 baked sweet potatos with the skin removed. The blend makes up about 1/4 of each meal. So far, he's doing well in accepting it, though I do try to mix it up well, last thing he will eat in the bowl. 
I've had to remove bones from his diet and add in cooked ground eggshells and other supplements. Tripe is still a part of the daily diet, however.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

wolfy dog said:


> I never doubted feeding raw. Deja's breeder has been doing this forever, also raising the pups that way and all his dogs look awesome. I followed his protocol blindly to get some confidence and now add some variation. The rest she'll find in the form of deer poop and other goodies in the forest where we live.
> 
> 
> 
> It smells like the old style cow barns from my childhood.



I appreciate your confidence via your experience......thanks


Yes, it seems like a fresh cow barn....exactly...


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How is Karlo, Jane? How are his values? Did they level out? Or still going down?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I haven't had any blood tests since early Dec. So far, slow to go down, but his muscle and coat condition have really improved. I'll go again in a few weeks for another blood draw.


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