# Very nervous about hip xrays



## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

Hey everyone, 
Been a while since I have posted on here about my puppy George. He's getting desexed tomorrow and having hip xrays done while he's under. 
He is 8 almost 8 months old and since he was quite young I've been worried/paranoid about his hips. 
He still bunnyhops and lazy/frog sits (among other things) and I've finally saved enough money to get him xrayed. 
I know HD is not a death sentence and I know its usually manageable - but I feel I have quite a hard decision to make if it does turn out to be HD. 
I have a 3 y.o English Staffy as well and they play quite rough and run/jump around A LOT. 
1. I'm hoping that this hasnt caused any issues with his hips, and
2. I don't think I'd be able to keep him if he does have HD simply because I feel like my staffy would make the problem a lot worse in the long run and I would have to consider rehoming him to somewhere that could properly manage the problem. 
Any way, I know not much can be said yet but just needed to get it off my chest. 
Please keep your fingers crossed for good results for my boy tomorrow.


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

8 almost 9 months old* oops


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Good luck....toes crossed!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

HD is not a death sentence. Bad hips bother some dogs, not others. Then, too, you don't do definitive hip xrays until they are 2 years old. And excercise helps hips as the supporting muscles grow stronger. 

Neutering at 9 mos is a bit young. I'd wait at least a year. So here's what I would do - delay neutering for at least a year and try real hard to quit obsessing.


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

I went through this roller coaster myself. Not fun. But it's better to get it over with so you can quiet that lingering uneasy feeling in the back of your mind. And who knows? It could be good news; but even if it is HD there are varying degrees of it and many dogs go on to live long unaffected lives. So try to be optimistic 

Fingers crossed, good luck!


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

Thanks for your responses. I know there is a lot of debate about ages to neuter etc., I chose to do it now because I wanted those hip xrays and I thought it'd be better to get them done together and "save him" another session of anesthesia.
Also for the puppy play group we go to they must be neutered or they're not permitted in. 
I dropped George off this morning and he'd be having his procedure about now I think. I'm really really nervous for him. Hoping soo much that its good news  thanks for the support!


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

You are still going to want to have them repeated when he's around two. There is still growing to do when they're his age, and neutering is likely going to change the outcome of how his bones are going to develop. Testosterone regulates the closing of growth plates, and dogs who don't have them closed before they're neutered tend to have a sudden spurt of growth. It is easy to tell neutered early dogs. Their legs are always longer and straighter than dogs who were left intact until after a year. :/

Just wanted to put that out there.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I know a lot of dogs with imperfect hips (from mild to severe) who run and play and romp with other dogs. Most are on regular Adequan injections, but they live good, full lives without any suffering, and don't have to miss out on good play.


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

I appreciate all the information. And I definitely intend on having him xrayed again at 2. I have heard back from the vet, he is going well after the operation. Have to go pick him up in about 2 hours to discuss the results..


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

Hey guys, 
So the neuter went well.. no complications. 
Buttt unfortunately Georges xray show mild hip dysplasia on his left side. 
Not really sure what to do now.


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## CountryGirl01 (Dec 10, 2014)

I'm very sorry to hear that. At least his right side is fine, and at least it's mild HD on his left side and not worse.

As someone who hasn't owned a dog with HD I really can't offer much other than my condolences. Hopefully someone who has more personal experience with HD will make a post.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Talk to your vet about what age to start Adequan therapy -- it doesn't mask pain, but rather lubricates the joints and helps maintain cartilage. If needed, get suggestions about strengthening and stretching from the vet (or referral to a vet physical therapist, if possible). And then go on with life -- many dogs with mild HD won't suffer any limitations until they get a little arthritis in old age. Pay attention to the dog, not the x-ray -- if it's mobile, happy, and pain-free, live life!


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Hi, if your dog's HD is mild and on one side only, then he's a lot better off than my 4 y/o shepherd with 2 bad hips and while Hans can't really participate in dog sports, he is able to lead a very full life. If you watch him walk his gait is just a little different-no limp though. 
He plays very hard with our cowdog and never seems to be in any pain.
After he was first diagnosed, I was afraid to let him do much of anything, but with a dog breed that is so energetic, I soon realized that while one has to use some common sense (throwing balls close to the ground instead of in the air which makes him have to jump) that I really just needed to let him be a dog. 
He has been on joint supplements since I got him at 1 1/2 and I added Duralactin, which is for chronic inflammation, a few months ago.
He plays fetch, tug, goes for walks and loves to go to training.
It sounds like with a little management and some supplements, your dog should do well.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Well, this is sorta a dope slap for the OP -- the hips aren't fully developed until the dog is 2 yo. One reason for delaying neutering is to build stronger joints (and allow the hips to fully develop.) By neutering this early you have removed one possible help/natural correction for what now appears to be a faulty hip. OK that sounds pretty strong. I am frustrated at your rush to neuter and all the more so when you are obsessing about hips. Your dog's "mild" hip may improve still by the time he is two - but the likely hood would have been enhanced with delayed neutering.


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## robyd (Aug 18, 2015)

Hi, I had to take my pup BOLO to the vet due to a lot of whinning and once he lay down for a long period of time he cannot get up as fast as he once did and he's constantly moving in different positions for comfort. The vet said BOLO has HD in his right hip. Is it feasible to have the surgery performed? I've been told the surgery is very expensive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well what is done is done.

I get upset when things are done for convenience -- getting the dog into playcare , "Also for the puppy play group we go to they must be neutered or they're not permitted in"

Does a dog that already has a companion at home need to go to playcare? If there are concerns about damage being done by the elder dog at home wouldn't that be multiplied by a whole passel of rowdy , rambunctious young dogs playing together?

"I chose to do it now because I wanted those hip xrays and I thought it'd be better to get them done together and "save him" another session of anesthesia."

If the hips were a worry then x ray the hips . The anaesthesia is temporary. The neutering is permanent with impact on growth .

You say you would x ray the dog again at 2 years so the dog would experience anaesthesia twice anyway.

Many vets can do an excellent placement and x ray without anaesthesia . Mine does . Even for ofa certification. 

We don't know if your vet can do a good x ray placement or do a good read . Your dog may be askew and that may affect the reading . 

What to do now. Your dog is normal. Treat him as normal. Let the dog exercise regularly to build those muscles and ligaments . Get on to a dietary plan which will contribute to collagen synthesis . Get onto a diet that is anti inflammatory because it is arthritis that is the problem , and this is what you want to prevent or delay .


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Hi Jessica,
I understand your initial upset, dismay and disappointment, but George's hip dysplasia was mild. Follow the vet and other's good advice here, and remember to enjoy your dog.


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

Wow, I really don't appreciate all of the negative comments in regard to neutering my dog. I've been very patient and said that I appreciated all the information that you were offering to me but to suggest that I was doing it out of convenience is wrong. 
You don't know my situation at all or what I have been through with this puppy. 
I have done everything that I can for him and tried my best to ensure that he has a healthy and full life. 
If you don't agree with my choices then that is fine - I came on here for support and not to be told that my decisions would make the situation worse. 
I 100% trust my vet and I don't believe that any of you that are writing these negative comments are vets. Yes you're entitled to your opinion but don't take your "frustration" out on me and my decisions. 
And the comment about having a companion at home and therefore not needing to go to playgroup is, in my opinion, short sighted. 
He is a young puppy. I wanted him to be socialised to many other dogs of many different breeds. Not just my one dog that I have at home. 
Do all the other people on here that have multiple dogs only allow them to socialise with those dogs in their own backyard?
And its not a playcare group. I don't drop him there and leave him. It is a puppy play group that runs on saturdays as part of my puppy school. 
And the play there is very different to the play that happens at home. 
There were a lot of factors that I had to consider here. 1 being that I work part time and was currently in the financial position to do this (circumstances change very quickly for me and I may not have had money later down the track). 2 is that I have recently been through a lot of drastic and unbelievably difficult events in my life and worrying about his hips was something that was making things much harder for me on a daily basis. I needed to know now. 
This decision wasn't made lightly. I thought about it a lot and decided that this was the best thing for my dog.


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

But thank you to every one else that has offered me support and stories about their own dogs.  I know the news isn't too bad and I will talk with my vet about the proper treatment plan etc for him. It's just hard news to hear.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"And the comment about having a companion at home and therefore not needing to go to playgroup is, in my opinion, short sighted. 
He is a young puppy. I wanted him to be socialised to many other dogs of many different breeds. Not just my one dog that I have at home. 
Do all the other people on here that have multiple dogs only allow them to socialise with those dogs in their own backyard?"

there are hundreds of posts about dog parks on this forum.

this is what it sounds like , although it may be the same group of people. 

the play is different because now you have changing pack dynamics as each new member joins , or new dogs are added. 

when you have your own dogs at home you probably tried to match temperament and age so that you have compatibility and harmony . Not so the dog park . So you may have a bully and an insecure dog . Or have some event which will trigger a big group response - pile up on the underdog . 

to be socialized means to fit into larger society , to behave around other dogs without getting into their face or space , not aggressive , not fearful. You don't have to experience the "united nations" of dog breeds to accomplish this.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Robyd - start a new thread with your question please. It will get more attention.

Jessica - I don't need to know your vet. Vets in general advocate early neutering (before 2 yo.) If I don't want to neuter, I need to advocate for not doing it due to health reasons. Vets, like Drs., just don't have the time to stay up on the science for everything. For years neutering was touted as the way to go. I loved my vet in Arkansas - (both of the ones I relied on for the last several years down there). One was a chiro/accupuncture vet and on top of a lot of this but the other one was rather surprised when I brought it to her attention that dogs developed a lot more skeletal issues, joint issues when neutered early (certainly before 2 and some stuff for not until 5) 
Current vet here in Oregon is first rate - but his puppy package includes a spay in the first year. No thank you. No advantage to that puppy package because my puppies will stay intact far longer.
Also consider that the board is public. Other people will read this thread long into the future. With that in mind, when someone does something I think is ill-advised, I will point it out quite directly. So to the general person reading this - if you are concerned about strong structure, hold off neutering. Forget the "play group" If your training situation only allows neutered dogs, find a different trainer. If you can't take an intact dog to one situation, go to another one.


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## Augustine (Nov 22, 2014)

Just FYI, a lot of vets, shelters, etc. advocate for early neutering not because of health reasons, but because people consider it "proper" pet ownership to spay/neuter as early as possible to avoid contributing to pet overpopulation. (which isn't a bad thing in itself, since a lot of pet owners ARE irresponsible)

Vets *don't* know everything. They're not always right. So while you should always take internet advice with a grain of salt, the same goes for vets and other "professional" opinions. 

Do your own research: you'd be surprised at how much scientific evidence there is AGAINST early neutering. Don't allow yourself to become just another ignorant pet owner who blindly listens to everything their vet says. ALWAYS double and triple-check everything they - and everyone else - says.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> Well, this is sorta a dope slap for the OP -- the hips aren't fully developed until the dog is 2 yo. One reason for delaying neutering is to build stronger joints (and allow the hips to fully develop.) By neutering this early you have removed one possible help/natural correction for what now appears to be a faulty hip. OK that sounds pretty strong. I am frustrated at your rush to neuter and all the more so when you are obsessing about hips. Your dog's "mild" hip may improve still by the time he is two - but the likely hood would have been enhanced with delayed neutering.


I have to agree with this. I did some research after Brennan's hip dysplasia. The research actually stated that for dogs that were neutered before a year the chances of hip dysplasia showing signs within 6 months was significantly high. It is exactly what happened with Brennan. Due to that I am waiting to get Apollo fixed until he is at least 18 months. I can deal with hip dysplasia but I don't want him to go through what Brennan did if he don't have to. I can see the muscle getting stronger with Apollo, this is the time they gain muscle. The weight comes later, muscle now.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Folks, few here are more anti-neuter than me, but the deed is done, let's move forward.

Jessica, with this breed, HD is the least of your worries. Sorry, but most dogs can live a full life with HD and no surgery. Generally, their owners need to do very little to keep them comfortable. Yes there are serious cases that do present a lot of issues, but for the most part HD is one of the things we can work with. 

Other things this breed seems to be infected with:
EPI,
SIBO,
Allergies,
MegaE
Spondylosis, 
DM,
Epilepsy, 
Elbow Dysplasia
Heart Problems
Pannus
Fungal Infections
Tick Diseases
Hemangiosarcoma
Osteosarcoma
Other cancers
Hemophilia or vonWilbrand's disease

HD is usually easy, keep the dog lean, low impact, regular exercise, perhaps a daily supplement, and do obedience or rally rather than agility. Maybe the dog will need a surgery down the line. Maybe the dog will not have any symptoms. 

The other stuff, that we have no way of knowing whether or not your pup will be afflicted with, can be anywhere from life changing to life ending. Yeah, that is hard to hear. But this is a breed that has some serious health concerns, and we can worry about them, or we can read up on them and know the symptoms, or we can just expect the dog will have some issues and we will manage them as they crop up.

Good luck with your dog. Owning a living creature has a downside. They break down, later rather than sooner hopefully, but whenever it happens it is painful for us. Please enjoy your dog and don't let the worry consume you. It doesn't improve anything. If we know there is an issue, we can educate ourselves in the best forms of managing the condition, but beyond that, worrying about health problems isn't helpful.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

as I said before what is done is done , but I do agree with
middleofnowhere , in the spirit of long sightedness , people will be reading this in the future and so information about early neutering is important for decision making.

I did sit in on a lecture series that featured Vet behaviourist. Early neutering or neutering in general is touted to be a method to prevent (male) inter dog aggression . Well , not the case , if anything creating aggressive problems.

Leuscher was one of the key-note speakers. "The questionnaire was designed to detect which dogs had or had not bitten a person living in the same household, and included both demographic and behaviour questions. Twenty veterinary clinics were enlisted to administer the questionnaire to their clientele. Data was collected on 3226 dogs, a response rate of 81.4%. Dogs were predominantly purebred (60.1%) and neutered (71.6%)."
http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(01)00153-8/abstract

"_On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs to prevent future health problems, especially immature male dogs. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases"_

_"_ In another report dealing with aggressive behavior in dogs, prepubertally castrated male dogs were just as aggressive as noncastrated dogs 2 - " Neutering and Behavior | Angry Vet

and " Renowned behaviorist Parvene Farhoody looked at this possibility in her Masters thesis at Hunter College in 2010. The study was based upon a 101 question survey called the Canine Behavior and Research Questionnaire (C-BARQ) to collect information on 7 different behavioral characteristics for over 10,000 dogs. Their data showed that neutered dogs were _more _aggressive, fearful, excitable and less trainable than intact dogs 4"
thanks to Neutering and Behavior | Angry Vet

Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs

Early Spay Neuter: 3 Reasons To Reconsider

neutering comes up often on the forum as a remedy for behavioural problems which are due to management, lack of training , lack of parameters, lack of sound temperament . 

As a breeder I do not recommend neutering unless there is a medical problem .
Neutering is not a substitute for responsible dog ownership. On the other hand I am not an advocate for dog parks . Trainers love them, brings them lots of business. 

maybe we should open a new thread to cover all aspects of this ?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> as I said before what is done is done , but I do agree with
> middleofnowhere , in the spirit of long sightedness , people will be reading this in the future and so information about early neutering is important for decision making.
> 
> I did sit in on a lecture series that featured Vet behaviourist. Early neutering or neutering in general is touted to be a method to prevent (male) inter dog aggression . Well , not the case , if anything creating aggressive problems.
> ...


Probably. 

The newcomer who created this thread is already defensive and feeling picked on for her decision, which she can't do anything about now. 

There are plenty of threads that discuss when to alter and whether to alter. We have to find a balance between educating people (after the fact) and welcoming people into the site where there is a lot of information for the life-time of the dog.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Let me pre-face this by saying that my last 2 dogs were not spayed until later in life-however I have a real reaction to this thread. Some posts in my opinion are 
really judgemental -stating that the op spayed or neutered for convenience-and if she did is that your business? And there is also an implication that because she neutered she's to blame for the HD-I read the research study -don't think these comments are helpful and you are blaming the OP. My current female I xrayed her young and when I re-xrayed her at 2 she received OFA good -you might want to try re-xraying at 2 -and also use an ortho vet. My vet did use sedation and I am ok with that-he knew what he was doing.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

At this age, I would rather have a dog PennHip evaluated then OFA labeled. IMO, hip X-rays at 9 MONTHS is not a very accurate reading for HD. At least PennHip measures displacement and is a much better predictor of DJD.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I disagree with neutering only if there is a medical problem. I know of three males in the last month that were not neutered, all about 8 yrs old, larger breeds that died from prostate cancer. In an attempt to save them they were all neutered and it was unsuccessful, all three died within a month of the surgery. I really don't like those odds.


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## Horses272 (Jun 15, 2015)

This individual has come to this forum for support, snarky comments do not help her.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

llombardo said:


> I disagree with neutering only if there is a medical problem. I know of three males in the last month that were not neutered, all about 8 yrs old, larger breeds that died from prostate cancer. In an attempt to save them they were all neutered and it was unsuccessful, all three died within a month of the surgery. I really don't like those odds.


You might find this interesting.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17516571

A population study of neutering status as a risk factor for canine prostate cancer.

Bryan JN1,*Keeler MR,*Henry CJ,*Bryan ME,*Hahn AW,*Caldwell CW.

Author information

1Department of Veterinary Medicine and Surgery, University of Missouri, Columbia, Missouri, USA. [email protected]

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Prostate cancer has been reported to occur more commonly in neutered than intact male dogs in several case series. This study was undertaken to evaluate risk of prostate cancer in a large population database. The hypothesis was that castration is a risk factor for prostate cancer in male companion dogs.

METHODS:

Data were derived from recorded visits to North American veterinary teaching hospitals. The Veterinary Medical Databases (VMDB) were queried to yield male dogs with urinary bladder transitional cell carcinoma (TCC), prostate adenocarcinoma (ACA), prostate TCC, prostate carcinoma (CA), and prostate tumors. A second query yielded all male dogs over the age of 4 years without a diagnosis of urinary tract cancer. These populations were compared to determine relative risks for developing each disease, singly and collectively, associated with neutering status. Odds ratios were calculated for breed as a risk factor.

RESULTS:

Neutered males had a significantly increased risk for each form of cancer. Neutered males had an odds ratio of 3.56 (3.02-4.21) for urinary bladder TCC, 8.00 (5.60-11.42) for prostate TCC, 2.12 (1.80-2.49) for prostate adenocarcinoma, 3.86 (3.13-4.16) for prostate carcinoma, and 2.84 (2.57-3.14) for all prostate cancers. Relative risks were highly similar when cases were limited to those with a histologically confirmed diagnosis.

CONCLUSIONS:

Breed predisposition suggests that genetic factors play a role in the development of prostate cancer. The risk associated with being neutered is highest for TCC, supporting previous work identifying the urothelium and ductular rather than acinar epithelium as the source of these tumors.

(c) 2007 Wiley-Liss, Inc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Saphire said:


> You might find this interesting.
> A population study of neutering status as a risk factor for canine prostate cancer. - PubMed - NCBI
> 
> A population study of neutering status as a risk factor for canine prostate cancer.
> ...


I'm not interested in studies at this point because I've seen how it plays out and it's nothing like the studies suggest. There is a point when one is to take real life situations over studies. I watched these dogs suffer and all different vets attempting neutering to reduce tumor, which they all claim has a good chance of working, but didn't. I do know of two dogs it did work for, but again I'm not letting it get to the point that my dog has a 50/50 shot of survival because he wasn't fixed. 

Was this study in 2007?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Studies usually look at more than 3 dogs before drawing conclusions. 
Kinda like saying "last 3 dogs I saw die from hemangio were sable so stay away from Sables"

I don't know if this study is accurate but it does come from a reputable source and school.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gosh, I've been so conflicted on this decision. With a female . My thought was not to get her spayed until 24 mos old. What I have read, intact is better for HD but not better for mammary cancer. This article does not indicate a risk for mammary cancer for unspayed??? I don't know which to believe. It would be easy for me to keep her intact. No risk of pregnancy (I watch her very carefully). 

My main concern is with Pyometra. Is this disease a killer? Summer has a sire and sib (by another dam) that couldn't get OFA'd so my leaning is to not spay...


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Gosh, I've been so conflicted on this decision. With a female . My thought was not to get her spayed until 24 mos old. What I have read, intact is better for HD but not better for mammary cancer. This article does not indicate a risk for mammary cancer for unspayed??? I don't know which to believe. It would be easy for me to keep her intact. No risk of pregnancy (I watch her very carefully).
> 
> My main concern is with Pyometra. Is this disease a killer? Summer has a sire and sib (by another dam) that couldn't get OFA'd so my leaning is to not spay...


I know of a 11-12 yr old chihuahua that had pyometra recently. The first vet did not catch it. I insisted my friend got a second opinion, sure enough they caught it. The second vet was amazed the dog was still alive. She did survive but it's a dangerous thing if not caught and/or treated in time. I would take HD over any kind of cancer any day.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I really hate the spay/neuter debate on here. I work for a vet and have for the last 9 years. I can tell you that the population of "pets" that are left intact and still see a vet is very small, and that the majority of the intact ones that are eventually brought into the hospital are brought in for near fatal issues surrounding their reproductive organs later in life. It's just a fact that I don't need to read in an online study to know. After seeing so many PTS because owners can't afford the emergency surgery required to save a dog with pyometra, or the intact male with chronic urinary/prostate problems, I came to the conclusion that it's worth it to me.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I really hate the spay/neuter debate on here. I work for a vet and have for the last 9 years. I can tell you that the population of "pets" that are left intact and still see a vet is very small, and that the majority of the intact ones that are eventually brought into the hospital are brought in for near fatal issues surrounding their reproductive organs later in life. It's just a fact that I don't need to read in an online study to know. After seeing so many PTS because owners can't afford the emergency surgery required to save a dog with pyometra, or the intact male with chronic urinary/prostate problems, I came to the conclusion that it's worth it to me.


I completely agree. We obviously see the same things

As for the OP....it's not the end of the world that you got your pup fixed. It doesn't matter what the reason, it was your choice. I have a dog with severe hip dysplasia and he had had 2 FHO surgeries. He is almost completely healed from the second and you would never know that he had anything wrong. He runs, plays and swims. He enjoys life


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I agree as well. Honestly this thread made me sad. 

The OP did not ask for opinion on neutering her dog. She asked for support in regards to the hips and because she was nervous. 

The decision to neuter or spay a pet is personal one. And unless an opinion is asked, it just seems rude to belittle her choice. 

I see a lot of Pyo and prostate issues and mammary cancers, and lazy owners and great owners. Studies don't always show the real world. People view studies and it gives them a reason to not neuter, but they let the dog roam the neighborhood(he likes to go on jaunts). Yes this was an actual client. 

I chose what I chose based on my lifestyle. Others choose different, and as long as they are happy with their decision, then good. 

OP, if you are still reading, sorry about the hips. But there are lots of things you can do to help your boy live a great life. Keep him thin, well muscled, start glucosamine, feed high quality food, limit jumping straight up(like frisbee), but keep him fit! Swimming, hiking, walking hills, all are great! 

Good Luck!!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Odie will be 8 in October. I bred her. When it came time to have the puppies, she was in a full blown false pregnancy. She had milk. I took her to the vet I go to for c-sections, and they did an ultrasound and found she had no babies and her uterus was full of fluid. As she NEVER produced any fluid prior to her c-sections, even if we waited until the puppies were separating from the placenta when they went in, I felt confident that she would not lose that fluid on her own, and the term they used was pyometra. They said if she is not sick now, she will be. Closed pyo is much more dangerous. I went ahead and spayed. The alternative was to treat it with hospitalization/drugs for at least a week, breed on the next cycle and spay soon afterwards. I was not going to breed her this time, but had a friend who wanted a pup out of her, so I did. But I knew it was time for her to be retired anyway, and chose to spay.

Evenso, I have two ten year old intact bitches, a nine year old intact bitch, 2 seven year old intact bitches, a six year old, and more and other than this I have had neither pyo or mammary cancer in any of them. In fact, I think Odie resorbed the litter. She was not ill at all, and she would have been with closed pyo. It may have turned into that. But we could have probably did a c-section and removed the fluid and taken her home on the same day. But, the time was right to go ahead and spay.

I understand spaying for fear of pyo. But I would not do it before the bitch is fully mature 2 years minimum. The risk of pyo increases with each cycle, specifically if the bitch is not bred. A 2 year old bitch is very unlikely to have a problem with pyo unless there is a genetic component to that, and her direct ancestors had the issue.

One of my pups died at six from prostate cancer. He was neutered very young because his owner bred her bitch to my dog, and nearly lost her bitch when the pregnancy went wrong. So she spayed the bitch, and bought an 8 week old puppy from me, and got him neutered as early as the vet would do it. 16 weeks. 

The OPs pup is 8 almost 9 months old. I think that a lot of the early-neutering issues become less of an issue the older you neuter. It is not like she neutered a neonatal puppy. 6 months is pretty typical for pets and some vets want to do them at 16 weeks. There really is no point in worrying at this point.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

And in contrast, the intact sire of my SO's dog died at 6 from prostate cancer...So who can really blame the neuter for the cause? 

You can't win in this situation. You neuter, they get cancer...You don't, they get cancer..


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

The link between skeletal issues and spay/neuter is established, the link between spay/neuter and cancer less so according to my wholistic vet. I spayed my eldest at 5 yo because she was having false pregnancies and her attitude toward other dogs during those was getting pretty tiresome. (ie, she illustrated why the term for female dog has a bad connotation) and it was getting worse with each cycle. I did manage one cycle to a degree with herbal supplements but it still wasn't good. I delayed spaying for health reasons. Mammary cancer can be detected and survived. Not so hemangio. 
Yes, you need to be aware and watch for pyro. Really, you need to be in tune with your dog - how they are normally, what they are like when they are just a bit under the weather. My first dog was an intact male - he died at 16 yo of throat cancer. That we didn't detect soon enough. 16. No prostrate cancer, no hemangio. `16.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I don't believe anyone here has attacked the OP. I find the majority of people here are experienced and passionate with dog ownership. People learn by experience and with their pets, that often means learning by heartache. I've lost a dog to pyometra, she was young and beautiful and I was devastated. I've lost males young to cancer x 3, again devastating. With each loss you dig deep to find out why, you don't want to lose another the same way. After losing most of my dogs at a young age I chose to look hard at how I have cared for them and what changes need to be made. I won't spay/neuter unless there is a medical need, I won't vaccinate yearly unless titers say it is needed, I won't use insecticides on my dogs skin/body, I won't feed kibble to my dog. I did the vets way for 30+ years with poor results. Only time will tell if my decisions contribute to this dogs longevity but I can say it's looking very promising!!

I guess what I'm trying to say is people here are passionate and want to see EVERYONE'S dogs live long healthy lives. We just might come across abit strong sometimes and in the end are desperately trying to save people from some of the heartaches we have experienced.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Re spaying. There are different spays that can be done. One which leaves the ovaries but takes the uterus. Ilda had the spay that is more common in Europe, laparoscopic spay which took her ovaries but left the uterus. Naturally I was concerned about pyo. but years of this procedure in Europe show pyo. is rare in absence of the ovaries/ hormones which cause the changes in the uterus that set up the conditions for pyo. 

i probably would consider an alternative to traditional spay if possible.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Re spaying. There are different spays that can be done. One which leaves the ovaries but takes the uterus. Ilda had the spay that is more common in Europe, laparoscopic spay which took her ovaries but left the uterus. Naturally I was concerned about pyo. but years of this procedure in Europe show pyo. is rare in absence of the ovaries/ hormones which cause the changes in the uterus that set up the conditions for pyo.
> 
> i probably would consider an alternative to traditional spay if possible.


Thank you, This may be the way to go. But, Isn't it the hormones that seem to provide some increased protection against degeneration leading to bone problems/HD? If this is true, it would negate any benefit I was hoping for by not spaying.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Jessica, I am going to be unpopular but here goes. I have worked for vets for 35 plus years and have seen many many pets spayed/neutered at every age and the majority of them never had any issues of any kind aside from some getting fat because the owners did not keep up with exercise and food intake. I have seen many hundreds of dogs with late life health injuries due to non s/n . Cancer, pyo, are a few of them. I have seen no issues with ranch dogs neutered at young age doing ranch work for years and years. I have seen little foofoo dogs living till 16 and older with no issues. However I have seen neutered/spayed dogs with HD and many intact dogs with hd. 
I spayed/neutered anything of my own that I was not showing, at young age and when I did their hips for my own breeding practices I had bad hips and good hips. When doing hips ofintact dogs I also got good and bad hips. I had dogs live short lives and long lives, of course maybe breeding dogs for over 40 years doesn't give me enough information for some folks.
I am one of the few here who think if the person wants to neuter their dog at a young age then that is a personal choice. It is your decision and nobody else's choice and no one has the right to make you feel bad.
As far as the hips go, send them for prelims at ofa. Doesn't cost much and you will have a true reading of his hips. Nothing against the your vet, but having done x-rays for years my own vets made wrong calls on some hips and good calls on some hips. That being said hd is not going to ruin your dog's life, many things can be done to help whether by surgery or med and supplements. Good luck


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think there are reasons dogs are living shorter lifespans now. Cancer does get them whether they are fixed or not. I think there are a lot of things that probably contribute to this. Putting insecticides in or on the dogs for all their lives; feeding dog food which is packaged so much more appealing, but used to actually have meat in it-- horse meat; vaccinating and re-vaccinating, and re-vaccinating for everything under the sun. Genetics can play a role, but across the board the average lifespan has gone down, while we are spending more time and money than ever at vets, and the percentages of dogs that are fixed has increased. I expect it has to do with living in a fallen world, we are all mortal. The carcinogens, pollution, and nasty dog foods our dogs experience are just as much a factor I am sure.


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

Hey everyone,
Thanks for all your replies. I had to take a breather from the forum for a few days. 
I know everyone was just trying to be helpful* (I hope) and I am not really interested in arguing over the internet. 
I appreciate that you all have a lot of experience with your own dogs or have read a lot of scientific evidence and keep up with the research - but I will say again that this thread was never intended to be a discussion about my choice to neuter. 
I am well aware that this is a public forum and that people will be reading this in the future, possibly to make their own decisions - but I would hope that they are also never made to feel like they have done wrong by their dog by deciding to neuter at any age. 
There are a lot of mixed opinions about neutering, and I've read a lot of the threads about it. I may be wrong, but from what I've read all the research suggests that there is a correlation between HD and early neutering (in that dogs who were xrayed after early neutering showed more HD than dogs who were neutered after a year old). I obviously haven't done as much extensive research as all of you but I have a few problems with those findings. 1) George already has HD (presuming that my vet read the xrays correctly) and I haven't come across any research that suggests that not neutering will FIX the problem, just that there is a correlation,
2) correlation is not causality, there could be many other factors that have not been controlled for in this study (perhaps those who neuter early aren't interested in breeding because their pups didn't come from a long line of good hips. Or maybe these pups came from a rescue and are therefore almost always neutered early)
And 3) research does not always reflect real life outcomes. They are based on averages where "outliers" are often deleted from the study.*

I haven't analysed any of the studies, and don't plan to. I don't think there is any point to beating myself up about a decision that is already made and that I felt was in the best interests of my puppy.*
I expect that I will recieve a lot of negative feedback from this comment. But like some of you have said, what's done is done and I do not regret my decision.*

But, to be honest I regret posting in the first place.*

I want to move forward and enjoy my puppy.*

I really appreciate those who have kind words or advice to offer about the HD diagnosis!*

A lot of the comments on here however have been really unhelpful and have made me feel worse.*

As for all the comments about dog parks. I don't take george to dog parks. He goes to a puppy play group run by my trainer. The sessions are controlled by behaviourists and older, stable dogs and since I've been going there there has never even been the threat of a fight. Its about learning to work with distractions. All the dogs are matched by age and size. And regardless of all this, George loves it and has so much fun there.*

Again, I really do appreciate all of the information and I'm not trying to start fights or sound ungrateful to all those who obviously truly care about the best interests of the breed. And I do respect every ones opinion, which is why I joined the forum in thr first place.*

I haven't been back to the vet yet but when I do I will talk to him about what our options are moving forward. I would love to hear from anyone who has had the same or similar diagnosis and what has worked for them *

Hope everyone has had a great weekend!*
I don't know why all those little '*'s came up..


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Hi Jessica, your doggy playgroup sounds awesome, I wish I'd had the opportunity to do that with Nitro. He had elbow dysplasia that required surgery 9 months ago, followed by physio, (didn't know there was such a thing as a doggy physio), and at 18 months old now, he's doing great. With George having a mild case of HD I wouldn't be expecting him to need surgery. Please keep us up to date after you've seen the vet again. Looking forward to hearing good news.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HD is a hard call. Hips do improve or worsen as the pup matures. And vets often do not read x-rays correctly, or position a dog correctly, and some of it is crystal ball stuff -- what can you say about how hips are likely to grow with just one measurement? 

Why most of us want to wait for a dog to be fully grown before removing the hormones isn't just one thing. But, one thing is that if you neuter before the growth plates close, the long bones will grow for a longer time-frame. This can give a pup a leggy appearance, along with having some of the secondary sex characteristics not be pronounced, it give the appearance of a bitchy, leggy, dog. What someone once said is that it is only half an inch difference. I can't believe that, but were it so, having the long bones grow half an inch longer than nature intended would cause a difference in how those bones fit in the hip joints. 

It is a personal choice to neuter or not to neuter and when to nueter. Your dog will probably be just fine. Don't worry about it.


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

I do believe my vet is quite qualified in doing hip xrays, reading and postition etc, he was recommended to me by the breeder. But I guess I can't be 100% unless I sent them off to be scored. Which I may do. 
Another thing is, when showing me the xrays he said that the growth plates were already closed. 
From what I've seen on here and from my own research they usually close between a year to 2 years old. So is he wrong? Or is that possible? Again hes only 9 months old. 
If its not possible for the growth plates to be closed at this age theb maybe he was wrong about the hip as well?


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## jesicaandgeorge (Apr 3, 2015)

I will try to get a copy of the xrays to post when we go back to the vet.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I give this advice to everyone who has a dog with an orthopedic issue. Get to a rehab vet for a few sessions. (I checked and saw some in Brisbane)

They can help you come up with a plan and show you exercises to maximize your dog's potential by properly stretching and strengthening the proper muscles! It is something you can go for a few sessions and be equipped with tools that will work for the life of the dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My thing is, when the dog is still growing -- at nine months he most likely is still growing, how can you be certain with one set of x-rays whether the hips will improve or worsen or stay the same by the time the dog is full grown. 

I mean if you x-rayed at 4 months and at 8 months and the hips looked tighter or looser, the vet could conclude (and so could you) what is likely to occur if you allow nature to run its course. Probably, by 9 months, the change will be minimal, and I just wouldn't worry about it.

I agree with figuring out the best supplements and exercises to minimize the effects of the HD. Like most things, it isn't set in stone, you can effect it by what you do from here on out. Your dog has a window of potential for symptoms and while you cannot guaranty symptom-free, you can improve his chances of that by giving him the right stuff to improve his joint make-up -- calcium/phosphorus ration = correct, vitamin C is supposed to be helpful, glaucosomine and chondroiton, and so forth. There may be something like Missing Link that will be a broad spectrum joint help. And maybe going with a holistic vet to find the best things to address individual concerns. Keeping the dog lean. Doing what Joycoyn said about ortho-rehab specialist to find the best match of exercise/stretches to build good muscles. Good stuff.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

selzer said:


> My thing is, when the dog is still growing -- at nine months he most likely is still growing, how can you be certain with one set of x-rays whether the hips will improve or worsen or stay the same by the time the dog is full grown.
> 
> I mean if you x-rayed at 4 months and at 8 months and the hips looked tighter or looser, the vet could conclude (and so could you) what is likely to occur if you allow nature to run its course. Probably, by 9 months, the change will be minimal, and I just wouldn't worry about it.
> 
> I agree with figuring out the best supplements and exercises to minimize the effects of the HD. Like most things, it isn't set in stone, you can effect it by what you do from here on out. Your dog has a window of potential for symptoms and while you cannot guaranty symptom-free, you can improve his chances of that by giving him the right stuff to improve his joint make-up -- calcium/phosphorus ration = correct, vitamin C is supposed to be helpful, glaucosomine and chondroiton, and so forth. There may be something like Missing Link that will be a broad spectrum joint help. And maybe going with a holistic vet to find the best things to address individual concerns. Keeping the dog lean. Doing what Joycoyn said about ortho-rehab specialist to find the best match of exercise/stretches to build good muscles. Good stuff.


My pup was like 16 months when the hip dislocated, so X-rays at 9 months would have sure helped me out, but he didn't show any signs of any dysplasia and his was severe.


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