# SchH Corgis?



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I was wondering if a Cardigan corgi could do SchH, not based on their breed, but if they can jump high enough or have the temperament to do it? I'm pretty sure they can jump high enough, since it's the short dogs that seem to be able to jump the highest.... LOL

I think it would be fun to do SchH with a corgi. 

I went ahead and highlighted my main question/concern.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

You could do a BH and tracking titles if he is good I'm sure. But I have a hard time believing a Corgi could jump that high to pass obedience.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

You have to remember that not only do they have to clear the 1 meter jump, they have to do it holding a SchH 1 dumbbell in their mouth. Unlike in AKC where the dumbbells are based on size of the dog, the SchH dumbbell is standard sized. I believe that was all that held back Claudia Romard's Jack Russell from getting his SchH title and I would think that a Corgi with their short little legs would have an even harder time.

I know of a small Cattle Dog that does the jump, but he still tends to sort of pull himself over the jump.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Temperament wise, many of them could certainly do it.

The difficulty would be as others have mentioned in the obedience. The jumps and dumbbells are all the same size, they are not adjusted to the size of the dog as in other venues. I have a hard time imagining a Corgi being capable of retrieving the SchH1 dumbbell over a meter high hurdle. The a-frame could get difficult too, but probably possible. If it could pull off the flat retrieve and retrieve over the a-frame with the dumbbells, if all the rest of the obedience was good enough it would still be possible to get a passing score in obedience even if it couldn't do the retrieve over the jump.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

You know I don't know why they couldn't consider lowering the jumps for smaller breeds in schutzhund to allow smaller breeds to compete in the obedience phase especially if people are just doing it for fun...don't think it would be the end of the world...


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Because Schutzhund was not meant to be for other breeds other than GSDs?  There are plenty of AKC titles you can trial for with other smaller breeds.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

there is a video of a corgi doing some SchH, I can't remember the dogs name though


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Because Schutzhund was not meant to be for other breeds other than GSDs?  There are plenty of AKC titles you can trial for with other smaller breeds.


Yep. Schutzhund is the ultimate dog test, its really cute and fun to watch a small dog doing it but would you want your life in the hands of a jack russel?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

We have a rescue Cardigan that is certainly drivey enough for SchH but doesn't have the best nerves, so I'm not sure how he'd pan out for SchH. He is not IME the norm for the breed as far as drive goes. On the whole, both Corgi breeds are bred pretty much for show or pets these days and the majority are very soft and/or very laid back, lower drive dogs. There appear to be no "working lines" of Corgis, even the ones people do herding or agility with are show bred or from pet breeders.

Structure is another issue as both Corgi breeds but the Cardi even more so have been selected for exaggerated physical characteristics (extra long bodies, extra short legs, very deep chests) which would make clearing such a high jump extremely difficult and potentially dangerous. I have been told by show Cardi people that young Cardi's shouldn't even be allowed to go up and down steps or jump on and off furniture until they are well over a year old. 

So I'd say, that while there probably are some Corgis out there that could be trained for SchH they would be few and far between. I doubt you could find a breeder that is consistently producing drivey, sound Corgis which also have a more historically correct (working) structure. If you do find such a breeder though, of either Corgi breed PM me


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

I think a corgi could get enough points to pass. The dog could go over the jump on the go out and then go around on his way back with the dumbbell.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

My Corgi JRT mix with a SchH 1 dumbbell. I don't think she is clearing any jump with that thing


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

AgileGSD said:


> I doubt you could find a breeder that is consistently producing drivey, sound Corgis which also have a more historically correct (working) structure. If you do find such a breeder though, of either Corgi breed PM me


PM me too. It's a shame they don't breed these dogs for work anymore. Same goes for the terriers ...


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Jason L said:


> PM me too. It's a shame they don't breed these dogs for work anymore. Same goes for the terriers ...


 Cardis are my husbands favorite breed but I was so disappointed when I found there were only show lines. People would tell me so and so breeds working Cardis. Time and time again though, I'd find the website or info on their dogs and they have show line Cardis but they do some herding or performance. The show lines IMO are far removed from what the breed was supposed to be, in temperament and in looks. There is a show Cardi at the training club I go to that I swear weighs 60lbs. He's not fat, he is just huge! Heavy boned, loooong bodied and so short legged/deep chested that his chest nearly touches the ground. Other Cardi people feel this dogs is "just beautiful!". I'm not sure he could even jump 12"...

There are still some working terriers out there though. JRTCA really promotes JRTs being bred for work. There are also Patterdales and the working bred Lakelands. Amazing how different the working Lakelands look from show Lakelands:


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I knew about the Patterdales. Also hear they still breed working Airdales and Border but didn't know about the Lakeland.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

holland said:


> You know I don't know why they couldn't consider lowering the jumps for smaller breeds in schutzhund to allow smaller breeds to compete in the obedience phase especially if people are just doing it for fun...don't think it would be the end of the world...


Couldn't quite see a Corgi or JRT being a man stopper in the protection phase. It would be awful cute to watch them try though!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

How exactly do they judge how hard the dog hits the helper? And (depending on that) do you think a corgi would be able to score enough points on that part?

A hurdle is a meter high? So a little over 3 feet. I think a corgi might be able to jump that? How many points is it worth jumping over it on the way back?

How many points are needed to get a title? What exactly is the difference between SchH1, 2, and 3? Are more points needed in 2 and 3 to get a title? Would a corgi possibly be able to get a 2 and 3 title, or just (possibly) be able to get a SchH1 title? 

Sorry about the jubilee of questions!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> Cardis are my husbands favorite breed but I was so disappointed when I found there were only show lines. People would tell me so and so breeds working Cardis. Time and time again though, I'd find the website or info on their dogs and they have show line Cardis but they do some herding or performance. The show lines IMO are far removed from what the breed was supposed to be, in temperament and in looks. There is a show Cardi at the training club I go to that I swear weighs 60lbs. He's not fat, he is just huge! Heavy boned, loooong bodied and so short legged/deep chested that his chest nearly touches the ground. Other Cardi people feel this dogs is "just beautiful!". I'm not sure he could even jump 12"...
> 
> There are still some working terriers out there though. JRTCA really promotes JRTs being bred for work. There are also Patterdales and the working bred Lakelands. Amazing how different the working Lakelands look from show Lakelands:


To me it looks like the main thing making these dogs look so different is the haircut. On the showline it's grown out more. I know our little schnauzer looks like a totally different dog after we bring her home from the groomer's. I think even the other 4 dogs would have to agree - hackles are raised and lots of sniffing!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Konotashi said:


> How exactly do they judge how hard the dog hits the helper? And (depending on that) do you think a corgi would be able to score enough points on that part?
> 
> A hurdle is a meter high? So a little over 3 feet. I think a corgi might be able to jump that? How many points is it worth jumping over it on the way back?
> 
> ...


http://www.alpha-k9.us/training.html 

To be honest, I think if you do SchH with a Corgi you're looking at a novelty performance. You can expect to be judged accordingly. I would think as long as the dog engages and you can get through the routine you will pass. Have you looked on You Tube for Claudia Romard and her Jack Russell Mr. Murphy? I would check out that so you get an idea of what the Protection Phase looks like for a small dog.

Yes, a hurdle is a meter high. This is the breakdown for Points on Obedience in the SchH1. You need 70pts to pass. (which is the same in tacking and protection, however you need 80pts in protection to be able to move onto the next title) So if you dog will jump going to get the dumbell and return around, you can still get partial points. However, if you skip the jump completely you lose all 15 points.

*B**. Obedience: *Total 100 points
1. Free Heeling (20)
2. Sit out of Motion (10)
3. Down with Recall (5+5=10)
4. Retrieve on Flat (10)
5. Retrieve over Hurdle (15)
6. Retrieve over Wall (15)
7. Send Out with Down (10)
8. Long Down (10)​ 

As far as the differences between the 1, 2, and 3 there really are not that many. The routines get a little longer, the exercises might get a little more difficult, a few more exercises (stand). But not too bad. 

Point Breakdowns for he 3 titles are here.
http://www.alpha-k9.us/training.html

I think the biggest problem you will have is the same as the problem you will have in the beginning. The retrieves. Worth 40 points, they can make or break you. The size of the dumbbells increases. The SchH3 dumbbell is quite large. If you can't retrieve it on the flat, even though you use the 1 dumbbell over the jump and the wall, you'll still lose 10pts, which makes the margin for error in the rest of your routine very slim. 

So I would see if you can get a retrieve. If you can get a retrieve, physically I think it would be possible to pass at least the SchH1 (this of course assumes your Corgi has the drive and temperament to do the work). If you can't get that, then there is still the BH and the Tracking titles!


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

What exactly is BH? And if you do well in all three portions, are you given the SchH title, or do you get separate titles for each portion of the trial?


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## fightin14 (Feb 18, 2010)

To the comment about JRT in protection, I had a JRT when I was a child and he was a mean SOB and could easily jump 1 meter. I understand that he will not persuade someone to not do something like a larger breed would, but he was still mean and capable of causing some damage. Great dog just a little to vocal.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

The BH is the entry level obedience title combined with a temperament test. You have to get your BH before you can particpate in SchH titles. It's comparable to a CD + CGC in AKC. The obedience exercises are similar to the SchH1, but without the retrieve or the sendout and with 2 heeling patterns. One on leash and one off leash.

My understanding is that it depends on what you enter for. If you enter a trial for a SchH title you MUST pass all 3 portions to be awarded the title. And you cannot retroactively get an A or an OB or TR title. You must be entered for them. So if you enter for a Sch1 and fail the obedience, you can't get your TR1. You can enter a trial for just OB or TR titles. But then you only particpate in those phases. You cannot get just a protection title. I have seen some SchHA's which are done with obedience and protection, and opting out of tracking.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

So you can enter just the tracking portion or the protection portion and get a title in those areas?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

You cannot do just a Protection title, you would have to enter tracking as well. To my knowledge this is definitely offered by DVG. I do not think that USA does this. I know they offer the 3 levels of OB and TR titles. 

Obedience and Tracking Titles

United Schutzhund Clubs of America - Schutzhund Titles


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

You can do a TR1 (Tracking title), an OB1 (Obedience title) or a SchH A (obedience and protection but not considered a full SchH title as required for a breed survey). 

In SchH2 and 3, there is more distance, articles and someone else lays the track in tracking, there is the stand in motion with recall, as well, the dumbbell is larger for each title for the retreive on the flat. In both, they use the SchH1 dumbell for the Meter Jump and the A-Frame. Protection in SchH2 and 3 have a couple more components as well.

I think, but an not sure, that in DVG, they do adjust the size of the Meter Jump for the size of the dog. But it is not done in USA or WDA trials.

I've seen a Cavalier King Charles doing protection work, while I was visiting friends in Germany (their house dog), and he loves to go to training....he'd just never be able to do the dumbbells...


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

mnm said:


> .
> 
> I think, but an not sure, that in DVG, they do adjust the size of the Meter Jump for the size of the dog. But it is not done in USA or WDA trials.


The rules are the same in all clubs. The jump is not adjusted in DVG.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Konotashi said:


> To me it looks like the main thing making these dogs look so different is the haircut. On the showline it's grown out more.


 The working line dog doesn't have a haircut - the coat simply is just that different between them. The working line dog has a coat more like a wire haired JRT. There are actually a lot of structural differences too - leg length, angulation, tail set and head types are quite different.


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## lcht2 (Jan 8, 2008)

if i can get my dog to clear an 8 foot wall, im sure i could train a corgi to jump a 1 meter wall. so yes, i believe if the dog had all the right drives, he certainly could get a schH title.


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## K9mom (Jan 15, 2004)

You need to be careful of the back on Corgi's. My suggestion is to do the BH first, then go ahead and do the Tracking Portions. Then come play in AKC or UKC sports! )


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

I know this a VERY VERY old thread, but for what it's worth, I'll add my 2 cents. 
I had a Pembroke I just had to put down. Great dog in every way & totally dominated my Sch III GSD. Anyway, fancying myself as a pretty good decoy in my day I figured I'd see what he'd do. 
Now I know he's no GSD & at best he'd MAYBE put up a good fight with a sack or puppy tug. WRONG! He loved those things, so it only seemed logical to progress further. Within 3 weeks I had him on a leg-sleeve and aside from his lack of size, you wouldn't know you weren't working a 10-12 month old GSD! 
Now admittedly I don't know how well his back would've held up with years of training & all that but the I think he & I both made our point---- I Could train even an "unacceptable" breed & that Corgis are basically shrunken GSDs--given the right breeding & patient training..........


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Corgis have so much personality-love them-might be my next breed-


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I love corgis. I think they are a lot like GSD's in temperament. I have a friend who does shows, does agility and even bite work with hers. They are so much fun!


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

I'm thinking of getting another one in the somewhat near future. I just need to find a TRUE working breeder that understands where I'm coming from (GSDs, Sch & police dogs) and is willing to sell me a good prospect.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

https://www.facebook.com/100004926784148/videos/535507086623513/


This showed up on facebook


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

A friend of mine got her most recent corgi from this breeder. Coedwig Cardigan Welsh Corgis I don't know anything about corgi's, other than this puppy has better nerve and drive than half the GSD's I see out there today.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I have a friend with a Coedwig corgi bitch. AKC/UKC champion, and she is absolutely in love with that dog.


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## hemicop (Feb 13, 2016)

Thanks! I'll have to look them up when the time is right. My wife prefers Pembrokes but I'm sure the Cardigan would be a better choice.........**** maybe we'll get one of each!


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