# Sick of the e collar debate...



## itsharv

I've been researching on training with a e collar for about two months now to prep myself for the start of this new training tool. I neither have a trainer in my area or the money to get a professional but I also would not go into this blindly. I love my dog as much as my kids and ten times more then any girl I've ever met so I want the best for him and would never want to hurt him. In doing research mostly on this forum I have to pick through all the debate on what is better and what is right and what is wrong. I understand some healthy debate is good for a subject but it seems like every topic that comes up on this is nothing but an argument and no valuable information and advice being brought up. 
There's obviously lots of different ways and theories for training in any aspect. For the most part I'm sure the people on here actually do care about their dogs or they wouldn't be here looking for info. As long as people aren't abusing their dogs I think we should cool it with the arguments. Let people do their research and choose which method to use. I Chose Lou castles way. Weather that seems right or wrong to you unless your adding useful information just stay out of it. And let me and others get our advice while the other side of the fence gets their info and advice. Thankyou
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## kjdreyer

Aw, you're no fun! I think that's one of the many reasons people join a forum, to discuss and argue and to learn different view points! And argue some more! And luckily on this forum we all play nice, and there are literally reams of valuable info to be had. Good luck and have fun training!


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## VTGirlT

I hear what you are saying!
However, humans will be humans if you know what i mean!  We always will debate and bicker about things, making personal attacks to others to make ourselves feel better. Some are better about keeping it just a debate on a none personal level than others. So it goes!

I'm with you. Except I was completely against the e-collar before i got my dog and the prong collar. I'm _not_ sold on the choke collar after doing lots of research, i just wouldn't use that on my dog. 

I do use the prong collar on my dog. And I am going to use the e-collar. I'm just researching, getting as much information, practicing on people before i use on my dog.  Like you, i LOVE my dog. She helped me come a long way in my life and I am very fond and connected to her, and am absolutely committed to her. Although positive reinforcement, counter conditioning, etc. all work so does other tools such as e-collar. 
I am a vegetarian, HUGE animal lover ever since i can remember, i use to work at a shelter, my dog gets whatever she needs typically before i get it- and yet i have an e-collar that i plan on using on my dog once i feel i am ready to do so. I think if people understood that not everyone plans on shocking your dog to smithereens is the plan, and that it actually could save a lot of dogs lives(literally, i can think of a handful of dogs that were euthanized at a shelter with empty kennels because of behavioral issues that needed a tool such as e-collar to help them) and that it is not such a bad tool to use. But like with everything it should not get into dumb people's hands, but neither should dogs! And for those good owners who just don't know how to use one and still use it, they need to be educated- and that would happen more if their were more good trainers willing to show people how to use e-collars, more articles on how to use them correctly, etc. 
So i think people who fight the battle of "ban e-collors" should spend their energy on the battle of dumb, abusive, bad people owning dogs. Thats my rant of the day. LOL


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## Baillif

E collars aren't voodoo. They aren't magical dog ruiners if not used to a certain method.

They are a novel form of punishment at least until the dog gets used to them.

In my experience any form of punishment or negative reinforcement can cause the same superstitious associations you see related to ecollar use. There seem to be a few factors that determine the odds of it happening.

Intensity- the more ouch factor the higher the chance of a superstitious association. They really really want to avoid a high intensity punisher or neg reinforcer from happening again and if it isn't crystal clear as to why it happened then the dog is going to "cover all his bases" so to speak. An e collar can deliver a very highly unpleasant sensation without worry of physical damage to the dog. More so than hitting them with something. Therefore some people will be more likely to blast a dog.

Novelty of the punisher or negative reinforcer- the more novel a punishment the higher a chance of a superstitious association. 

Novelty of the environment in which the unpleasant stimulus occurs. 

An example of both of those coming together would be the time we had a new dog loose in the training room about to go for a bowl of food off the counter in the break room kitchen and one of us threw our car keys at him without marking the event. The keys didn't even hit the dog but it startled the dog and since both the punishment and the environment were both novel the dog avoided the crap out of that whole area afterward even though the punishment event occurred as the dog was beginning to counter surf. 

Clarity- How clear you are to the dog is huge. Lots of factors play into this. Timing, teaching methods, prior experiences, methodologies, consistency.

Even if you do cause a superstitious association you just identify it and show the dog it's not true and fix it.

It's not rocket science. Does require some thought though.


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## Baillif

I tend to use prongs to give direction for negative reinforcement then layer over with e collar and then get rid of the prong. Once the dog knows the behavior it's just a matter of some practice to make sure the dog has it and then the e collar gets used as a punisher. I don't need it though I've gone from prong straight to naked training where the punisher or negative reinforcement is my body. I call it handtronics. It's like tritronics but cheaper. I like to mix it up.


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## SunCzarina

I'm sick of seeing that debate. I've seen too many e-collars used sloppy and as a crutch for not training. 'Gonna zap him' is easier than teaching the 1 y/o dog not to bite the 8 week old puppy because that's what Mistress wants. Or gonna zap her because she barks when we leave her out in the yard all day. All that leaves a bad impression with me. I don't want to get lumped in with all the other pet owners looking for the easy way out. For people who are serious about learning the theory, have at it.


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## volcano

I dont use it often ( the e shock part) but the vibe gets my girl snapping to attention and doing obedience with enthusiasm. Its alot nicer than snapping her leash or dragging her. If shes ignoring me then she does deserve a shock. Shock is also much nicer than pulling on a leash, plus shes sensitive so its only level 9 of 100.


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## boomer11

Ecollar is an amazing tool but imo marker training with treats/toys is still the king of the hill. 

The problem with Ecollar is the majority of people use it as a punishment tool. The bad thing is its a really powerful punishment tool. The majority of the public uses it just like volcano described above. Shock the dog for not listening. 

Dog still doesn't listen? Let's crank it up a few levels...


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## SunCzarina

boomer11 said:


> The bad thing is its a really powerful punishment tool. The majority of the public uses it just like volcano described above. Shock the dog for not listening.


Wow Boomer I actually agree with you on something. If my dogs aren't listening, I'm doing something wrong. It's on me to figure out what and fix it. Otto's a hard dog, growing up he often questioned my authority. It was on me to get in his head.


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## Blanketback

I don't understand why there's a debate in the first place, lol. People who can train without them, do. People who want to explore their options re: training tools, learn about them. People who don't want to use ecollars, don't.


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## martemchik

Not sure what the point of the thread is...confused as to what the OP is stating.

Anyways...I think the biggest problem with ecollar is that you never get WHY people are using it, they just are. Like with OP, I was waiting for a, "I need to use the ecollar because..." statement. Those are the types of decisions that could be debated, possibly other ways of training that same behavior could be just as effective without a $200 tool or something that does have a negative perception in the training world (not with people that "know" but with the majority of dog owners out there).

I'm with baliff on this one...more times than not I've met people that use them only for punishment. Most times is a recall thing. Dog doesn't come, buzz, still doesn't? buzz. Or the ones that are at the dog park and like to show you how they control their dog's aggression by buzzing it every time it decides to mount something...that's how people like to use these tools. We've even had a guy come on here and start a thread about how he was shocking his 4 or 5 month old puppy at levels in the 70s because nothing else effected his dog...clearly not someone using a ecollar in the proper way.


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## Baillif

Yeah if you can't recall your dog without an e collar you need to examine your relationship with the dog not look for a tool to fix it. That is a vague statement but it's true. Recalls are more about the relationship between dog and handler relationship than anything else. I was going to say I never used an e collar to recall my dog but then I remembered I used one to teach whistle recall off a decoy. 

Still I like them. I use them regularly more on the pets than on my own dog simply because our relationship is strong enough that it isn't necessary. I do use it for certain exercises. It also makes for a good insurance policy for off leash activities.


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## itsharv

I'm not talking about people who come on here and talk about shocking their dogs at levels that hurt the dog. By all means please try to convince them of a better way. I'm more talking about using low stim levels but it seems every thread on this subject just turns into a back and forth argument and the original question is never getting constructive advice cause it's turned into a bickering contest. 

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## NancyJ

You have only recently joined the forum and are already posting to complain about what other people post. It is a discussion forum and as long as people follow the rules they are free to offer their own opinions and you are free to take what you do and do not want to follow.


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## martemchik

itsharv said:


> I'm not talking about people who come on here and talk about shocking their dogs at levels that hurt the dog. By all means please try to convince them of a better way. I'm more talking about using low stim levels but it seems every thread on this subject just turns into a back and forth argument and the original question is never getting constructive advice cause it's turned into a bickering contest.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


The thread you're talking about never really asked a question. The point of that thread WAS to have a discussion. Yes, many times it does turn into a personal attack and feelings get hurt, but a lot of times its because people truly don't have the experience to be discussing what it is they are trying to prove.

You can look at EVERY training thread that gets started, and at least one person will have an opposing opinion on how to get something done. That's the beauty of dog training, there are many ways to get to the same end goal.

If the point of you posting a training question is to just get a bunch of people to agree with you and tell you how the way you're doing it is the best way ever and the only way, this is not the place to do it. For example: "I want a solid recall for my 6 month old puppy." I'll tell you the way I did it, with a long line, and always with a way to correct the dog once I knew he knew what was expected. Someone else will tell you that they can get it done with an ecollar, under low stim. Someone else will tell you to do it the improper way with a shock collar and when your dog blows you off you paralyze him. The discussion/argument grows from there.

When it comes to an ecollar...unfortunately it has been misused by the general public and a lot of people equate it to being cruel. The same way with prongs and chokes. So when someone says, "no, there's a way of using an ecollar that isn't cruel." People will argue that point.

I can also promise you that if a thread gets to double digit pages, its probably no where near where the OP was and includes plenty of bickering. Just look past it and get the information you want out of it.


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## scarfish

jocoyn said:


> You have only recently joined the forum and are already posting to complain about what other people post. It is a discussion forum and as long as people follow the rules they are free to offer their own opinions and you are free to take what you do and do not want to follow.


well said. i don't care what people want to debate. nobody knows anyone else's dog. my dog is a fairly high trained, professionally and is an AKC CGC. worked with multiple trainers. she goes to my wife's job everyday at a doggy day camp. she loves to fence fight with dogs in different yards. when she starts all the other dogs join in and the place turns to chaos. she either gets a little nick here and there on a low setting or will spend the whole day everyday in timeout. or spend the day watching me sleep all day 'cause i work nights. it works for our dog and nobody will ever convince me otherwise. so people can debate all they want.


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## wolfy dog

OP titled the thread as "Sick of...." So why start this out of the blue? There are many similar discussions already. Just type in the search: e collars and you can have all the opinions you are looking for.
Hope you feel more positive today, honestly.


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## itsharv

jocoyn said:


> You have only recently joined the forum and are already posting to complain about what other people post. It is a discussion forum and as long as people follow the rules they are free to offer their own opinions and you are free to take what you do and do not want to follow.


Your exactly right and I've gained countless knowledge on plenty of training questions I've had on this forum. But as a new Comer I'm letting everyone that has the experience that I thankyou for sharing for people like me, that when I recently started researching on this subject it was hard to get the info I was looking for because there seemed to be mostly just arguing I can scream and fight with my wife for hours with nothing useful to add toward the solution of the problem and that's what is happening on this subject I understand there are other topics that have debate I've seen them but they were for the most part useful and added to the question or problem at hand... My experience as a new member here is the experienced people that I look to for advice are clouding this subject with to much fighting and arguing so take it for what you will but if your here trying to help people like me I think I have the right to give you my opinion I'm not here trying to give advice on training or what's right or wrong Im stating this giving advice on what maybe you and other experienced trainers are doing for someone looking for advice. If your to much better then me to take this and maybe try to do better and you just want to argue that's fine I gave my opinion to try and make things better not worse 

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## Baillif

If you want professional advice on how to use the tool go to a professional. Don't ask a forum.


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## itsharv

I'm done

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## NancyJ

Any discussion forum is a mix of experienced and inexperienced people with opinions, some very strong. Some informed, and some not so. I am trying to say that is the nature of the beast on an internet discussion forum. Unless you know someone who is posting information, you have no idea of their experience or lack therof.

In general ecollars is a controversial topic as is spaying and neutering, raw vs. kibble, etc.. There are just some topics that generate a lot of very emotional responses.

I see forums more as a place to get "Gee I had not thought of that before" then take that to the mentor or trainer with whom I am directly working for their feed on the idea.

Generally, I have often found that those who are probably best equipped to answer such questions don't even participate in forums or are not going to give advice without one on one meeting the person and the dog. If you intend to use Lou's methods, I would work with Lou, or get to one of his seminars. I have heard Ellis is not very different from Lou (perhaps some nuances, I don't know enough to say).

It is fine that you gave your opinion, but understand there is usually feedback when you do.


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## wolfy dog

itsharv said:


> I can scream and fight with my wife for hours with nothing useful to add toward the solution of the problem and that's what is happening on this subject
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 comparing your marriage to the forum?


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## wolfy dog

Weird thread this has become. OP's posts are confusing.


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## JakodaCD OA

> Any discussion forum is a mix of experienced and inexperienced people with opinions, some very strong. Some informed, and some not so. I am trying to say that is the nature of the beast on an internet discussion forum. Unless you know someone who is posting information, you have no idea of their experience or lack therof.


I agree with Nancy, take what you will from discussions, use what you think you should and ignore what you aren't interested in..Professional training IN PERSON is always the best way to go.


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## Lee Taylor

SunCzarina said:


> I'm sick of seeing that debate. I've seen too many e-collars used sloppy and as a crutch for not training. 'Gonna zap him' is easier than teaching the 1 y/o dog not to bite the 8 week old puppy because that's what Mistress wants. Or gonna zap her because she barks when we leave her out in the yard all day. All that leaves a bad impression with me. I don't want to get lumped in with all the other pet owners looking for the easy way out. For people who are serious about learning the theory, have at it.



"easy way out" or possibly the most effective and efficient way to communicate to a dog what the desired behavior is?
Where did you see all these ( too many e-collars used sloppy and as a crutch for not training) misuses you speak of? Sounds kinda' like you simply want to validate something you know little about?
Because unlike you, I train with e collars. So I can speak 1st hand of dogs that others " trained", yet the owners were at their wits end ( often feeling as if a shelter or putting the dog down is the only options they have) trying to solve behavior issues. You reckon some of these owners were "left with a bad impression" after they put their trust in trainers ( mostly franchise and PetSmart type training) and spent their hard earned money, only to discover these trainers couldn't deliver on what they promised??
So the only people that should be tired of hearing about e collars are the trainers that gladly take people's money but cant deliver. 
It should be seen not as a last resort but should be the 1st resort because when used correctly it is the most effective training tool there is. Period.

All that "My bond with my dog is so strong" and "my clicker and treats have never failed me" sounds wonderful and makes one feel high and mighty...until the dog takes off after a cat or a deer or whatever else...

But I gotta go train with an e collar... a service dog. Owner has cerebral palsy. She's quite thankful for e collar training!! She isn't tired of hearing about it. Her timing isn't too good but clicking a button is wonderful ( for independence) for someone who physically is quite limited.


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## martemchik

Lee Taylor said:


> "easy way out" or possibly the most effective and efficient way to communicate to a dog what the desired behavior is?
> Where did you see all these ( too many e-collars used sloppy and as a crutch for not training) misuses you speak of? Sounds kinda' like you simply want to validate something you know little about?
> Because unlike you, I train with e collars. So I can speak 1st hand of dogs that others " trained", yet the owners were at their wits end ( often feeling as if a shelter or putting the dog down is the only options they have) trying to solve behavior issues. You reckon some of these owners were "left with a bad impression" after they put their trust in trainers ( mostly franchise and PetSmart type training) and spent their hard earned money, only to discover these trainers couldn't deliver on what they promised??
> So the only people that should be tired of hearing about e collars are the trainers that gladly take people's money but cant deliver.
> It should be seen not as a last resort but should be the 1st resort because when used correctly it is the most effective training tool there is. Period.
> 
> All that "My bond with my dog is so strong" and "my clicker and treats have never failed me" sounds wonderful and makes one feel high and mighty...until the dog takes off after a cat or a deer or whatever else...
> 
> But I gotta go train with an e collar... a service dog. Owner has cerebral palsy. She's quite thankful for e collar training!! She isn't tired of hearing about it. Her timing isn't too good but clicking a button is wonderful ( for independence) for someone who physically is quite limited.


To answer some of your questions…
I’m not against e-collars when used properly. I do believe they’re a great tool to communicate with your dog, especially at a distance, but in regards to it being the easy way out…I can’t tell you how many people I’ve met at a dog park that would show off their dog’s recall ability by going, “Spot come!” Spot doesn’t even bat an eyelash towards the handler. “Spot come!” Still no reaction. “Spot come!” BUZZZZZZZ! Spot lowers his head, slowly trots back to the owner.
I’m also currently training with an SDA club. There is a woman in there with a dog who is training a “PPD” dog. The helper and TD are helping her, but the dog at this point has very little obedience on her and really doesn’t understand what a “correction” is. The dog was imported with a Schutzhund title, but the lady has allowed her obedience to lapse so much (during bite training) that the dog isn’t good at turning it on and off at the lady’s command. The lady is also terrible at timing when the correction is necessary, so the prong she usually uses is completely ineffective. The TD uses an ecollar so that he can correct the dog at the right time and communicate properly with the dog. Now…the ecollar is being used correctly, but it would not be necessary if the lady had taken the time over the past 3 years to learn how to properly handle her dog.
My dog listens to me well enough for me to call him off of deer or other prey objects, never used an ecollar for that. I can use your same argument…when used effectively, most of the training methods out there are very effective. It’s totally about figuring out what trainer can actually deliver on their promise. But the truth is, many of those people in the dog park, will tell you all about how their trainer recommended the ecollar to be used in the way they’re using it…to pretty much be able to paralyze their dog whenever it decides to do something they don’t like…not to train it to not do those things.

By the way, the biggest problem with the ecollar is the public’s perception of it…in the same way that a prong collar looks like a painful torture device from the middle ages, the ecollar is equated to the electric chair or electric shock therapy from a few decades ago. Everyone knows that sticking your finger in an electric socket is a bad idea…and one of the first things you teach a kid, and yet you expect these same people to be “understanding” of how an electric shock device isn’t that horrible and is the best way to communicate with a dog?


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## Cassidy's Mom

I think if people are tired of e-collar debates they should probably not start new threads on the topic. They should also avoid reading and/or posting in the threads that are already here. Why start a thread to complain about e-collar debates, when as most people would expect all that accomplished was to perpetuate the debate? Threads (and topics) that are ignored will eventually extinguish.


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## selzer

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think if people are tired of e-collar debates they should probably not start new threads on the topic. They should also avoid reading and/or posting in the threads that are already here. Why start a thread to complain about e-collar debates, when as most people would expect all that accomplished was to perpetuate the debate? Threads (and topics) that are ignored will eventually extinguish.


I think the OP is frustrated with having a discussion to learn from others who have experience about how to use a tool turning into arguments about why he should not use the tool. It is actually a valid point of view. And you all know what I think of e-collars. 

It is similar to the questions about anything reproductive turning into interrogations about what titles, health screening, experience etc. that the dog/breeder wannabe has. That wasn't the question. But this _is _the internet, and a forum of dog lovers. 

So, you kind of have to take the bad with the good. If the conversation has strayed off-topic, bring it back on topic: "I understand you are all having fun debating the use of e-collars, but does anyone actually _know _whether the response I am seeing is what I should be looking for?" or, "If people are too afraid to come forward with information about this topic, and want to PM me about which e-collar is better and why..." 

Discussions, debates, arguments are actually excellent ways that many people learn things. So long as people are not bullied into being defensive, having a spirited debate about a topic, actually will bring a lot of information out that you may have taken forever to come across through research. Pounding on people to make them come across you your side is pointless and will only entrench people more solidly in whatever they want to believe. 

However, when one posts a scenario that is dangerous, an incorrect use of a tool that is likely to cause serious problems down the line, I don't think it is fair to expect people who love dogs to give you the standard Stepford response of "How nice." and go on their polite but pointless and empty way.


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## Msmaria

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I think if people are tired of e-collar debates they should probably not start new threads on the topic. They should also avoid reading and/or posting in the threads that are already here. Why start a thread to complain about e-collar debates, when as most people would expect all that accomplished was to perpetuate the debate? Threads (and topics) that are ignored will eventually extinguish.


:thumbup:

Forget the e collar topic. Did I understand you right? You love your dog more than any girl you met but are having another baby? So I'm sure I'm misunderstanding right? Maybe you meant to put more than any other dog.


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## SuperG

What's an e collar ?


SuperG


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## selzer

SuperG said:


> What's an e collar ?
> 
> 
> SuperG


It's a collar that encircles the neck with links in the shape of e's. The closed part of the e, top, is what is linked together. The tail of the e, or the bottom, actually has little micro-computer chips in them so you can monitor your dog from your lap-top or your tablet. 

They are really cool. Some of the tails can be programmed to produce a stim to let the dog know that it will be punished if it keeps it up. Other tails, produce little laser lights for the dog to play with and chase, so he does not become bored while you are away, and you can interact with him through them while you are supposed to be busy at work. The collar also contains a temperature sensor that will send a warning to your e-phone if your dog is in an environment over 90 degrees.

Of course if you are 30 or 45 minutes away, you dog might be toast by the time you reach him anyway, but if he does get out of the yard, they have those little tracking devices in them, so you can follow him right from your e-phone or tablet. Better than a micro-chip. And if the collar is removed from the dog for whatever reason, it goes off like a car-alarm on steroids.


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## SuperG

selzer said:


> It's a collar that encircles the neck with links in the shape of e's. The closed part of the e, top, is what is linked together. The tail of the e, or the bottom, actually has little micro-computer chips in them so you can monitor your dog from your lap-top or your tablet.
> 
> They are really cool. Some of the tails can be programmed to produce a stim to let the dog know that it will be punished if it keeps it up. Other tails, produce little laser lights for the dog to play with and chase, so he does not become bored while you are away, and you can interact with him through them while you are supposed to be busy at work. The collar also contains a temperature sensor that will send a warning to your e-phone if your dog is in an environment over 90 degrees.
> 
> Of course if you are 30 or 45 minutes away, you dog might be toast by the time you reach him anyway, but if he does get out of the yard, they have those little tracking devices in them, so you can follow him right from your e-phone or tablet. Better than a micro-chip. And if the collar is removed from the dog for whatever reason, it goes off like a car-alarm on steroids.


GET OUTTA HERE !!!

They didn't even have that kind of stuff on Star Trek !!!!


SuperG


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## selzer

SuperG said:


> GET OUTTA HERE !!!
> 
> They didn't even have that kind of stuff on Star Trek !!!!
> 
> 
> SuperG


Well, ok then, the e-collar is one of those lamp shades they give you at the vet when your dog is injured or recovering from surgery. I got one a couple of times, but I just couldn't use them. The dogs hate them so much!


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## SuperG

I've seen those...used one a few times....now I hear they have them electrified...so when your dog is recovering from a surgery or something and is walking around the house banging that thing on everything and wondering what the heck are they doing to me?.... they make it worse giving them 110 volts.....I wonder if you put a light bulb in their mouth and it lit ..it would make the look complete,

SuperG


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## selzer

SuperG said:


> I've seen those...used one a few times....now I hear they have them electrified...so when your dog is recovering from a surgery or something and is walking around the house banging that thing on everything and wondering what the heck are they doing to me?.... they make it worse giving them 110 volts.....I wonder if you put a light bulb in their mouth and it lit ..it would make the look complete,
> 
> SuperG


They're electifying them!?! I swear, I had one on Ninja, and it was like sleeping with a couple of six year olds and a toboggan. Every time I would start to sleep good, she would crash that thing into my eyeball and give me a sloppy kiss on my face. (I think I must snore). Talk about shock therapy for snoring!


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## SuperG

selzer said:


> They're electifying them!?! I swear, I had one on Ninja, and it was like sleeping with a couple of six year olds and a toboggan. Every time I would start to sleep good, she would crash that thing into my eyeball and give me a sloppy kiss on my face. (I think I must snore). Talk about shock therapy for snoring!



Hehehehehheehhe

SuperG


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## NancyJ

I thought maybe it was a full moon but now I see tomorrow is the new moon. Maybe that is like antimatter and the whole thing will collide in a rush of energy then collapse. If the forum has disappeared tomorrow it is all y'all's fault. .


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## SuperG

That's an entirely new thread and topic of discussion which I am certain I would have plenty of nonproductive comments for......

SuperG


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## selzer

jocoyn said:


> I thought maybe it was a *full moon* but now I see tomorrow is the *new moon*. Maybe that is like *antimatter* and the whole thing will *collide in a rush of energy *then collapse. If the *forum has disappeared tomorrow* it is all y'all's fault. .



aranoid:


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## Deno

The bottom line is, I don't care how you butter your biscuit,
just don't try and tell me how to butter mine.

I like solid results, hence my use of the e-collar and
the prong.


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## NancyJ

Deno, not sure why you felt compelled to come back to this but I think people were not telling you what to do with YOUR dog but were concerned that you were giving bad advice to others and did not have the experience with the ecollar and a wide variety of dogs to back it up.


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## Deno

Nancy, while it is true my experience with the e-collar is limited to my dogs, the advice I have given has worked well with them. 

The results speak louder than words.


Please give me an example of some of my bad advice.


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## NancyJ

Deno, no desire to get into an argument today. You have 135 posts. Anyone can search on your name and bring them up and make their own conclusions. I was stating why you were challenged in the first place.


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## Deno

I love a good debate, your response was typical to your type.


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## sabledog3

To me, the risk of fallout does not out weigh the benefit of the e collar. Especially when you can get better results using positive methods.


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## martemchik

Here’s a story…

My GSD training club (AKC obedience/conformation) has it in their training guidelines that use of a prong collar has to be approved by the training director. That has been in there for 20 years, and only because when the prong collar first came out, it looked like a torture device, AKC still doesn’t allow it on their show grounds, and people were constantly using it incorrectly. Today, people have learned how to use it, most people understand the proper way to use it, and in general people don’t bat an eye when they see a dog with a prong on.

The ecollar is in that beginning stage. Way too many people are using it incorrectly. I don’t think there is a single person on this forum that would tell someone that is using it correctly to stop using one, but from what I see out in the real world…most people use it incorrectly. It’s not a marker device, it’s a punishment device. Dog doesn’t listen, it gets zapped, pure and simple.

A huge part of why it’s going to take longer is the cost of the ecollar. The general public spends $150+ on a collar…they want it to fix whatever problems they’re seeing in their dog. They’re not using it to train the dog in a new, innovative, successful way, they’re using it to punish their dog the moment it doesn’t listen no matter how much “training” has gone into that exercise.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Deno said:


> I love a good debate, *your response was typical to your type.*


What is her "type"? :thinking: An experienced SAR person?


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## Baillif

Meh. If you need a tool to get the behavior you seek you are probably not qualified to use it. 

That being said. If you know how to use it go for it.


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## NancyJ

I don't have a clue what my "type" is. If it is basically not giving bad advice to people on things about which I have very limited experience, I am in and will embrace that type. 

Personally, I think it is fine to say "this worked for me" but to extend it to "this will work for you-here-fry your dog" without realizing that each dog and handler is different is problematic. That was where I was coming from.

I am glad to see Deno adjusted his viewpoints on the concepts of low stim, though. Change is possible. I have never expressed opposition to the proper use of ecollars. 

I just found resurrecting this in your face thread to make an in your face kind of statement a bit boorish.


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## jafo220

Wow this debate has gotten interesting. 

The problem is not the "tool". It's the application of use. It can be a tool of abuse, but so can my fist, foot etc. People look at it as punishment when used. I look at it as a form of communication when other communication breaks down. 

So, if using and e-collar is deemed un-necessary by some and is only used by a less than par owner and trainer, I'm guilty as charged. Everyone with this opinion is entitled to their opinion and you know what? I can live with that. Because at the end of the day, I know for a fact that using and e-collar to bring my dog back to earth, has not only improved our quality of life around the dog, but has also improved the quality of life for our dog. No matter how you want to paint the picture. The end results speak for themselves and stand on their own merit, not on the opinions of others.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

Eh....Bailiff likes to walk the line of conundrum and blunt. 

My trainer is kind-a similar so it doesn't bug me...... at all. 

BUT for us mere mortals, with _proper guidance_ from a good trainer, the use of these tools can help us get to a much better place with our dogs with much less frustration which is better for all concerned.

I've not used an ecollar, the prong so far has been sufficient but I'm using it less and less.


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## Baillif

I'll be a little less cryptic then, but just a little. 

The concepts of negative reinforcement, and positive punishment which are basically the only quadrants of operant conditioning an e collar concerns itself with are the same no matter whether you use a stick, your hand, your leg, a prong collar, an e collar, or whatever. You can achieve anything in dog training without it. It's a great tool and IMO the most humane one available when used properly. If you don't know how to achieve a training goal without the use of one then you probably shouldn't be using one to get there.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I knew that's what you meant, honestly I did! Of course the effective application also requires consistency and timing which can't be taught in theory only.

Some people have to just bumble through it all and some are more gifted and quickly get those skills down pat (which are more observational and motor skill related).

When I first started riding horses I took lessons on poor ponies of a very stoic nature who did not over-react to my lack of knowledge, timing and consistency.

Looking back I cringe, but how else can we learn? None of it is intentional, that's for sure.





Baillif said:


> I'll be a little less cryptic then, but just a little.
> 
> The concepts of negative reinforcement, and positive punishment which are basically the only quadrants of operant conditioning an e collar concerns itself with are the same no matter whether you use a stick, your hand, your leg, a prong collar, an e collar, or whatever. You can achieve anything in dog training without it. It's a great tool and IMO the most humane one available when used properly. If you don't know how to achieve a training goal without the use of one then you probably shouldn't be using one to get there.


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## Baillif

I found someone who was already really good at it and then got coached/yelled at/belittled until I got it right.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Been there, been through with Dressage and German trainers (clinics).

If they don't put you to tears they haven't done their job.

BTW- another aspect is the age at which you start learning something like this. If you start young you've generally got better reflexes (not to mention eyesight....) and then with practice it becomes muscle memory as you get older.

I learned this watching my hubby try to learn to ride horses at the age of 50 (actually ride, not just hack down a trail on a stable pony) and I realized it's harder when you're 50 and trying to train your body and mind to something new.

Anyhoo....sometimes I have to remind my trainer of that too but I do like the fact he keeps me honest, however I'm used to it from my horsie days....


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## jafo220

itsharv said:


> I've been researching on training with a e collar for about two months now to prep myself for the start of this new training tool. I neither have a trainer in my area or the money to get a professional but I also would not go into this blindly. I love my dog as much as my kids and ten times more then any girl I've ever met so I want the best for him and would never want to hurt him. In doing research mostly on this forum I have to pick through all the debate on what is better and what is right and what is wrong. I understand some healthy debate is good for a subject but it seems like every topic that comes up on this is nothing but an argument and no valuable information and advice being brought up.
> There's obviously lots of different ways and theories for training in any aspect. For the most part I'm sure the people on here actually do care about their dogs or they wouldn't be here looking for info. As long as people aren't abusing their dogs I think we should cool it with the arguments. Let people do their research and choose which method to use. I Chose Lou castles way. Weather that seems right or wrong to you unless your adding useful information just stay out of it. And let me and others get our advice while the other side of the fence gets their info and advice. Thankyou
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I agree that sometimes other opinions muddy the waters. But your going to have that on an open forum. There are different factions of people who believe in certain forms of training. Due to either their outlook on things in general, their lack of experience in those situations that require other methods or they just want or like to argue. If your going to be on any forum, your going to run across those people. It's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it opens up an otherwise mundane conversation to more education or pulls other facts out into the open that may not have been discussed if not brought to light.

If your going to use the e-collar to train. I highly suggest getting someone with some experience to show you a successful humane way to use the collar. I don't have enough knowledge to say it would or wouldn't ruin a dog. But I have enough experience to know that When administered correctly, it is a very effective and humane tool. Sometimes the alternative, and I've been there, is more dangerous and risky for not only the dog but the owner or trainer than using the collar. It depends on the dog and situation and the trainer.


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## NancyJ

jafo220 said:


> .
> 
> If your going to use the e-collar to train. I highly suggest getting someone with some experience to show you a successful humane way to use the collar. I don't have enough knowledge to say it would or wouldn't ruin a dog. But I have enough experience to know that When administered correctly, it is a very effective and humane tool. Sometimes the alternative, and I've been there, is more dangerous and risky for not only the dog but the owner or trainer than using the collar. It depends on the dog and situation and the trainer.


^^THIS^^

Honestly, this is what the vast majority here are trying to say.


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## Deno

You are the type who makes an accusation without being able to come up with a single solid example.

It's all a bit boorish.


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## Sarah~

Deno said:


> You are the type who makes an accusation without being able to come up with a single solid example.
> 
> It's all a bit boorish.


I think bad advice is telling someone to shock their dog based off of internet posts instead of directing them to a trainer who can actually be there in person to make sure they actually need the e-collar and use it right!


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## Deno

Again, no specifics, lets see a real example. It should be easy with
with my limited number of postings.

I will be more than happy to debate an example, if you can come up with one.
I expect more broad generalizations.


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## NancyJ

Deno said:


> Again, no specifics, lets see a real example. It should be easy with
> with my limited number of postings.
> 
> I will be more than happy to debate an example, if you can come up with one.
> I expect more broad generalizations.


Tweak on 60 / zap on 100
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...erstitious-behavior-e-collar.html#post4510306

Limited Experience yet gives advice
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...my-8-month-old-not-play-bite.html#post4494873

Full charge zap on a fearful dog
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-9-months-got-out-bit-passer.html#post4169906

I honestly do not care to debate you. You have a legal right to use the ecollar on your dogs the way you see fit. When you give bad advice, you will and have been challenged by people who know far more than I. I have only seen the consequences of high stim on the wrong dog at the wrong time and, thankfully, it was not my dog....could have been....we gave HER a full charge hit for game chasing and she blew it off. I saw that little girl's body spaz out after hitting a cattle fence and then resuming her chase. Lou's low stim methods fixed our problem . Oh, she was not a 'big bad alpha dog'-she was a sweet little 50 lb thing who just wanted to kill other animals.


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## Baillif

I teach with low stim. That being said once the dog knows and it still decides to engage in an undesirable behavior I won't hesitate to use a high stim punishment. For certain behaviors that must be stopped or it is potentially dangerous that might mean as high as the collar will go. There is a time and a place for it. That's why the collars go that high.

However, there are rules that must be followed and things that must be understood to make things clear to the dog. It's not something I'd just throw out there on the internet and expect people to get right. They get it wrong badly enough with me standing there watching over their shoulders.


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## Baillif

I haven't seen him do it but from what I've read there is a good chance he is probably doing it right. He's marking the action and delivering a timely consequence and that's a good portion of the battle right there. He's maybe a bit ham fisted with it but leaves little doubt in my mind he can stop something from happening with it. Maybe some fall out here and there but he probably gets the job done.


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## Deno

jocoyn said:


> Tweak on 60 / zap on 100
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...erstitious-behavior-e-collar.html#post4510306
> 
> Limited Experience yet gives advice
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...my-8-month-old-not-play-bite.html#post4494873
> 
> Full charge zap on a fearful dog
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-9-months-got-out-bit-passer.html#post4169906
> 
> I honestly do not care to debate you. You have a legal right to use the ecollar on your dogs the way you see fit. When you give bad advice, you will and have been challenged by people who know far more than I. I have only seen the consequences of high stim on the wrong dog at the wrong time and, thankfully, it was not my dog....could have been....we gave HER a full charge hit for game chasing and she blew it off. I saw that little girl's body spaz out after hitting a cattle fence and then resuming her chase. Lou's low stim methods fixed our problem . Oh, she was not a 'big bad alpha dog'-she was a sweet little 50 lb thing who just wanted to kill other animals.


 
I rest my case.....


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## jafo220

Baillif said:


> I teach with low stim. That being said once the dog knows and it still decides to engage in an undesirable behavior I won't hesitate to use a high stim punishment. For certain behaviors that must be stopped or it is potentially dangerous that might mean as high as the collar will go. There is a time and a place for it. That's why the collars go that high.
> 
> However, there are rules that must be followed and things that must be understood to make things clear to the dog. It's not something I'd just throw out there on the internet and expect people to get right. They get it wrong badly enough with me standing there watching over their shoulders.



I agree 100% for what it's worth and that's not a lot because I've only utilized the e-collar on one of only 5 GSD's I've had through my life. 

It as far as my current dog works well and I don't "over use it". The only time the stimulation was used in regularity was when he was learning the desired or undesired behavior. Once that was established and there was a clear understanding and correlation between the command and behavior expected, I eased off the stims a little at a time. I only use low stims and dial up as necessary. Most times now we try to command without stims at all and praise a lot when he does the desired behavior and correct with low stims when necessary. The only time I go directly to the highest is when there is potential danger for the dog or something else in example dog breaking for a busy street.


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## jafo220

jocoyn said:


> Tweak on 60 / zap on 100
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...erstitious-behavior-e-collar.html#post4510306
> 
> Limited Experience yet gives advice
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...my-8-month-old-not-play-bite.html#post4494873
> 
> Full charge zap on a fearful dog
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-9-months-got-out-bit-passer.html#post4169906
> 
> I honestly do not care to debate you. You have a legal right to use the ecollar on your dogs the way you see fit. When you give bad advice, you will and have been challenged by people who know far more than I. I have only seen the consequences of high stim on the wrong dog at the wrong time and, thankfully, it was not my dog....could have been....we gave HER a full charge hit for game chasing and she blew it off. I saw that little girl's body spaz out after hitting a cattle fence and then resuming her chase. Lou's low stim methods fixed our problem . Oh, she was not a 'big bad alpha dog'-she was a sweet little 50 lb thing who just wanted to kill other animals.


Jocoyn, I understand fully of a dog blowing through a high end stim. Cruz will at times do this if I don't recognize the situation before his drive enters high gear. Once he hit's that level, he is hard to correct or refocus. He has intense focus when he gets to that level and it's hard to refocus him at times. It takes a pretty high hit on the collar to break it. I can recognize the situations most times before he elevates and a simple low stim does the trick if he doesn't respond first to just the command. I'll have to look into the low stim method your talking about. Do you have a link?


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## simba405

jafo220 said:


> Jocoyn, I understand fully of a dog blowing through a high end stim. Cruz will at times do this if I don't recognize the situation before his drive enters high gear. Once he hit's that level, he is hard to correct or refocus. He has intense focus when he gets to that level and it's hard to refocus him at times. It takes a pretty high hit on the collar to break it. I can recognize the situations most times before he elevates and a simple low stim does the trick if he doesn't respond first to just the command. I'll have to look into the low stim method your talking about. Do you have a link?


Wow and here I thought all those posts you made about your dog's improvement was you using low stim to teach the dog. Guess you're just using it as a correction?


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## jafo220

simba405 said:


> Wow and here I thought all those posts you made about your dog's improvement was you using low stim to teach the dog. Guess you're just using it as a correction?


I'm not following where you're coming from. I use low stim to train or teach the desired behavior or even in some corrections where there is not immediate danger to the dog or other things. But you also find your self dialing up the stims if the dog fails to execute the command. If you don't, you'll never get anywhere and might as well not even use the collar. Praising the dog goes hand in hand with the collar no matter whether it's a high stim or low when the dog executes the command correctly. That's probably just as important than the stim itself and often gets lost in between the lines of humane or inhumane debates about the collar.

The quote you used above was me asking about low stim techniques when the dog reaches a point where it takes a higher stim to refocus him. I'f there is a proven technique that helps me out in that situation instead uf dialing up the stims, I'm all in. I'd rather stick with low stim if possible. But in the real world, there will be times when you have no choice but to go with a higher stim to refocus the dog.

As far as improvements, yes he has improved beyond my previous expectations. He is the politest dog in the dog park now and I rarely use any stims on him while in the park with other crazy dogs running around. He has taken on better characteristics since undergoing his training. Of course, no dog is perfect 100% of the time. Training never ends either. There is always room for improvement for the dog and the trainer/owner.


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## NancyJ

jafo, I have only taught the one dog on ecollar using a Lou Castle technique and did not experience the need to ramp up the stim because it as not used as a correction . One dog does NOT an expert make. So I never tell anyone how to train with an ecollar but to find a good mentor. 

After the training for crittering using his low stim method, I would see her alert on a prey animal, stop herself, (you could see the little gal thinking, honest), and then walk away. The technique was not about correcting her; it was about teaching her.

Flash forward to Beau who has been a real handful for me. At my most recent certification, the master trainer, retired from a full career as a police dog trainer and trainer of police told me not to put electric on my dog........all he needed was a little more maturing and gave me some non confrontational techniques to work with him. It was like magic what he could do with my dog. And things he showed me have made a huge difference in our relationship.

He has to work reliably off lead in the presence of aggressive dogs on chains, has worked one search with a chihuahua running underneath him and weaving through his legs and must be highly reliable. All kinds of situations where obedience is absolutely necessary..........I did get a whistle as a great tool to refocus as when he is scanning for odor he kind of shuts out the rest of the world...but that is not being disobedient but working..Kind of like tapping him on the shoulder....

Still think, in the right hands, the ecollar is a solid tool. There is some new research on it that is interesting and I will be open minded........but dogs can be reliably trained with out it. I am sitting here listening to a career k9 handler who sees them mainly as a quick way to a goal because police K9 dogs have to make it through a training quickly to get on the street.....but not a necessary tool with good and patient training...going you know, this man knows so much more than I will ever know and I will follow his advice......


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## jafo220

jocoyn said:


> jafo, I have only taught the one dog on ecollar using a Lou Castle technique and did not experience the need to ramp up the stim because it as not used as a correction . One dog does NOT an expert make. So I never tell anyone how to train with an ecollar but to find a good mentor.
> 
> After the training for crittering using his low stim method, I would see her alert on a prey animal, stop herself, (you could see the little gal thinking, honest), and then walk away. The technique was not about correcting her; it was about teaching her.
> 
> Flash forward to Beau who has been a real handful for me. At my most recent certification, the master trainer, retired from a full career as a police dog trainer and trainer of police told me not to put electric on my dog........all he needed was a little more maturing and gave me some non confrontational techniques to work with him. It was like magic what he could do with my dog. And things he showed me have made a huge difference in our relationship.
> 
> He has to work reliably off lead in the presence of aggressive dogs on chains, has worked one search with a chihuahua running underneath him and weaving through his legs and must be highly reliable. All kinds of situations where obedience is absolutely necessary..........I did get a whistle as a great tool to refocus as when he is scanning for odor he kind of shuts out the rest of the world...but that is not being disobedient but working..Kind of like tapping him on the shoulder....
> 
> Still think, in the right hands, the ecollar is a solid tool. There is some new research on it that is interesting and I will be open minded........but dogs can be reliably trained with out it. I am sitting here listening to a career k9 handler who sees them mainly as a quick way to a goal because police K9 dogs have to make it through a training quickly to get on the street.....but not a necessary tool with good and patient training...going you know, this man knows so much more than I will ever know and I will follow his advice......


I thought there was a link to the this Lou Castle method you mentioned. Thought it was something on the site here. I understand about being reserved about training advice. 

I am in total agreement with everything you said. In fact, Cruz probably in the hands of a very experienced trainer probably and I say...probably..... would not need to have had the e-collar. But there in lies the reality that, looking at myself while having numerous GSD's through my life, may never get to that point of knowing or achieving the training experience needed to be on the level of someone like you mentioned. So, with a young hard dog, the last resort in the line of training and training aides was the E-collar. 

I agree with what your trainer said about the e-collar being the quick way but maybe not the only way or the necessary way to train. If anything, and the way my mind works is asking the question, Why? What is wrong with using an e-collar in training and one of the best advantages is the speed of training? What's wrong with the speeding up the retention in a dog to learn commands or corrections as long as it is done in a humane manner and done correctly (and by the term correctly, by this I mean not necessarily the same as another trainer or common practices but proven methods that work) with an e-collar? Why does it always mean you have to take the long slow road to success? I understand the bonding time for say a very young pup, but in the case of an older dog say like Cruz that's just over a year old, why pull your hair out and possibly create a dangerous situation by taking the longer road waiting on the dog to mature out? I've read a few comments on here that sometimes, a dog doesn't mature out until about 3 yrs. of age. Now that's on the high end. But if the dog you have is and hand full, and Cruz is somewhat like Beau in that respect. Why utilize a quicker method if possible? That's what I fail to understand about some trainers. Not necessarily yours as they sound like they would apply an e-collar if they deemed necessary. I mean, to get to point B from point A, sure you could walk if you have two good legs. But why, when you could be more efficient and drive to point B?

But don't read me wrong. Situations vary. I'm not trying to talk anyone into buying an e-collar. If anything, I wish I would have never had to go this route as not because of the e-collar mythology surrounding it but because this training cost me a bundle. It's not cheap, but the way the situation had developed and going through two other trainers with minimal success, this seemed a viable and reasonable option. It took me about 8 months to talk myself into going this route along with some good posters on here that told me to stop living in denial and that Cruz was dangerous to others and the situation screamed for a change in thought process. I was never an e-collar advocate until after some research and a good trainer.


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## NancyJ

I think you summed it nicelywith situations vary. Dogs also vary. Mine was never a danger to anyone (He shows some signs of coming up the lead if someone not myself corrects him on a prong........but otherwise is quite accepting of actions by veterinarians and teammates..

Most of my issues were headstrong noncompliance, not aggression. 

If, for example, I had a game chasing problem I know I would resort to the PROPER use of the ecollar. If I wanted precision obedience (most SAR/Police obedience is NOT precision competition stuff but more about control in all circumstances) it would probably help me get there. 

It is a tool I am still open too but I sure would want to work one on one with a mentor to get there. If my current issues are with timing and consistency, how is giving me a more powerful tool going to fix things? I think many people think they can just put an ecollar on a dog and they will fix all the problems in the world. It still depends a lot on the person turning the dial and pushing the button knowing what they are doing.


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## sabledog3

The British military trains their dogs with positive only methods  I was lucky enough to get to work with some retired Belgian mals and they were so perfectly trained.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Here we go again.  

Royal Marine pictured below and that is one serious CHOKE chain on the dogs neck. Many trainers of working dogs feel choke chains are harder on the dogs then prongs.


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## Baillif

There isn't a chance they are training without aversives.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Another British soldier using a choke chain. Nice pic ... But choke chains aren't used with clickers and cookies. 


Private Danny Greenhalgh, from the Royal Army Veterinary Corps, with his military working dog Amy, a 4-year-old Belgian Shepherd [Picture: Richard Watt, Crown copyright]












Link to article containing the pic. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/desert-rats-prepare-for-afghanistan


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## Gwenhwyfair

Tsk tsk ...choke chains are the go to tool for PO training with military dogs, didn't you know that? 

Click, cookie, choke.  



Baillif said:


> There isn't a chance they are training without aversives.


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## jafo220

jocoyn said:


> I think you summed it nicelywith situations vary. Dogs also vary. Mine was never a danger to anyone (He shows some signs of coming up the lead if someone not myself corrects him on a prong........but otherwise is quite accepting of actions by veterinarians and teammates..
> 
> Most of my issues were headstrong noncompliance, not aggression.
> 
> If, for example, I had a game chasing problem I know I would resort to the PROPER use of the ecollar. If I wanted precision obedience (most SAR/Police obedience is NOT precision competition stuff but more about control in all circumstances) it would probably help me get there.
> 
> It is a tool I am still open too but I sure would want to work one on one with a mentor to get there. If my current issues are with timing and consistency, how is giving me a more powerful tool going to fix things? I think many people think they can just put an ecollar on a dog and they will fix all the problems in the world. It still depends a lot on the person turning the dial and pushing the button knowing what they are doing.


Jocoyn, I'm not qualified to answer the timing and consistency question. My opinion has always been to stay with what works. But recently it has changed to stick with what works, but, if that fails to no longer progress the dog and owner/handler, don't beat your head into a wall. Seek out other methods. This is where for a short time, I failed with Cruz. Not recognizing that what I was doing with him in those other classes was just not working. I was waiting on the maturity "foot to fall" and he magically would calm down and start listening to me. Every time he got out of line, the trainers would say "that's just him being a puppy". Or "he's still in his puppy stage". Thing is, they didn't have to live with him day in day out and that puppy is a very solid 95 lbs.! His play hurts. Constant bruising on the arms etc. It was just rough play and yeh I asked for it. But man if this was play, I'd hate to see this dog seriously get ahold of someone or another animal. Really fortunate that he really has a good disposition, meaning that he's not mean. He just likes to play and at his size, it could get rough. 

I have used the collar long enough now that I am almost 100% comfortable executing commands with it. Like my trainer told me. The collar has to be looked at as a tap on the shoulder. You wouldn't walk up to someone you know and slug them to get there attention. Or look at it as saying "hey" and every time you turn the stim up your basically raising your voice. That's why I view the collar as a form of communication between the dog and myself. Not necessarily a correction or punishment. 

I would be interested in your trainers view as to why they avoid the collar and to answer your question about using it for timing and consistency training. I'm thinking, myself, it may have to do with turning the dog off to scenting if there are mistakes on the collar. Much like an "off" command. Just a guess. It seems like a sensitive type of training. Just to help me understand not to critic anyone, especially and expert. Lord knows they would have a hayday with Cruz and myself. I'd probably go home very humbled. You're fortunate to have them.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Baillif

Clickers as conditioned punishers. I wonder if anyone is doing that.

Brings new meaning to the phrase "Click Click Boom!"


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## Gwenhwyfair

LOL!






Baillif said:


> Clickers as conditioned punishers. I wonder if anyone is doing that.
> 
> Brings new meaning to the phrase "Click Click Boom!"


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## sabledog3

Baillif said:


> There isn't a chance they are training without aversives.


Nope, they don't. The dogs I got to work with were ones that sniffed out bombs and such. they only used positive methods and no choke chains. If the dog did something wrong they took a step back in their training to see what they missed. They saw a mistake from a dog as a fault of the handlers training not a fault of the dog. They never blamed the dogs, and the dogs were perfectly behaved.

Of course you can find pictures of military dogs with choke chains, that's a bit of a silly point isn't it?


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## Baillif

I dunno about you guys but if I had the choice between a dog that was trained to sniff out bombs and had consequences for failure but rewarded if successful vs a dog that had no consequences for failure aside from absence of reward assuming both were trained equally well in all other aspects I would take that first dog every single time.

In the field there is a lot more at stake than whether or not a dog gets a cookie, and the training should reflect that.


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## Gwenhwyfair

No what's "silly" is the fact that you're denying evidence that clearly the Brits use aversive techniques to train their dogs. :crazy:

Those were only two of the many photos showing british military using chains. 

You think those choke chains are on the dogs to make them look pretty?

Look if you want to train your dog PO knock yourself out. But don't tell tall tales and expect people to buy it when clearly there is evidence to the contrary.




sabledog3 said:


> Nope, they don't. The dogs I got to work with were ones that sniffed out bombs and such. they only used positive methods and no choke chains. If the dog did something wrong they took a step back in their training to see what they missed. They saw a mistake from a dog as a fault of the handlers training not a fault of the dog. They never blamed the dogs, and the dogs were perfectly behaved.
> 
> Of course you can find pictures of military dogs with choke chains, that's a bit of a silly point isn't it?


----------



## NancyJ

I do not know any person or any method using aversives for detection work. It is 100% positive training. and a high degree of reliability is required.

Correction is still used in the obedience training for most I have seen, but not in scentwork.

I think 95% of training a dog for detection work is selecting the right dog and the right reward system.


----------



## sabledog3

Baillif said:


> I dunno about you guys but if I had the choice between a dog that was trained to sniff out bombs and had consequences for failure but rewarded if successful vs a dog that had no consequences for failure aside from absence of reward assuming both were trained equally well in all other aspects I would take that first dog every single time.
> 
> In the field there is a lot more at stake than whether or not a dog gets a cookie, and the training should reflect that.


They are actually trained to work for a toy/Kong, not a cookie 

Do you have more drive to do your job if you are rewarded or punished? Dogs don't try to be bad, you just have to know what questions to ask them and when to ask. Dogs can be distracted, overwhelmed, over excited and scared, etc. If you ask a distracted dog to perform, they might not, because they are distracted in their environment. This is why we as people should take that into consideration and instead of punishing them for being bad (they aren't, they are just distracted) we should teach them how to act around distractions. 

Military dogs aren't put to work until they are proofed in many environments and are doing their job correctly. This doesn't mean they are above making mistakes, everyone makes mistakes, even toy and me


----------



## sabledog3

Gwenhwyfair said:


> No what's "silly" is the fact that you're denying evidence that clearly the Brits use aversive techniques to train their dogs. :crazy:
> 
> Those were only two of the many photos showing british military using chains.
> 
> You think those choke chains are on the dogs to make them look pretty?
> 
> Look if you want to train your dog PO knock yourself out. But don't tell tall tales and expect people to buy it when clearly there is evidence to the contrary.


Not telling tales. I got to work with British military dogs. Learned their training techniques and worked with dogs in different stages of training. I got to work with some amazing animals that saved lives in Afghanistan. They were not wearing choke chains and were not ever corrected.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Now for some more "silliness" Heh.



> A shortage of highly-trained dogs in Britain has forced police forces to look elsewhere, and Alsatians from Germany seem to be the pick of the bunch.


Oops they use prongs and such when training in Germany.

Sitz! British bobbies learn German to bark orders at Alsatian police dogs






sabledog3 said:


> Not telling tales. I got to work with British military dogs. Learned their training techniques and worked with dogs in different stages of training. I got to work with some amazing animals that saved lives in Afghanistan. They were not wearing choke chains and were not ever corrected.


----------



## simba405

We have a few who actually have first hand experience saying no adversives are used for detection work and we have one that is Googling images and news articles. Easy to choose who to believe..... 

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----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Like I said I don't care how you want to train your dog. 


Just don't make broad generalizations that don't hold to be true to validate your personal choice in training methods. That's rather smug isn't it. 

PO people always adopt that "me thinks they doth protest too much" air that has a tendency to backfire upon closer inspection.


----------



## Baillif

Because government trainers and handlers are the best at what they do...please.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

The orginal statement said the "British Military" uses only PO. He/she did not mention detection dogs only.

Baillif addressed the detection dog aspect I have only addressed the original blanket statement, keep up.





simba405 said:


> We have a few who actually have first hand experience saying no adversives are used for detection work and we have one that is Googling images and news articles. Easy to choose who to believe.....
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Here ya go Simba. 

Fact is the "British military" uses choke chains on their dogs and choke chains aren't PO tools. 

As to which dogs they may or may not use them on is irrelevant in light of the below comment.





sabledog3 said:


> The British military trains their dogs with positive only methods  I was lucky enough to get to work with some retired Belgian mals and they were so perfectly trained.


----------



## Steve Strom

Baillif said:


> I dunno about you guys but if I had the choice between a dog that was trained to sniff out bombs and had consequences for failure but rewarded if successful vs a dog that had no consequences for failure aside from absence of reward assuming both were trained equally well in all other aspects I would take that first dog every single time.
> 
> In the field there is a lot more at stake than whether or not a dog gets a cookie, and the training should reflect that.


 Not to argue, I'm just curious. How would you correct a searching dog for failure or not finding something? Or by failure do you mean quit searching? Force him to keep going?


----------



## NancyJ

I would like to know of any training method that uses aversives for detection/odor work. Can you please describe just one with which you are familiar? Maybe it is a terminology thing because I sincerely do not know of any and have been doing SAR since 1999 and Cadaver work since 2008. 

Most of our best cadaver training has been with sheriff office and ex-MWD handlers who have taught us using their methods for drug and explosives training. Training logs are kept and reliability must be above 90-95% accuracy in blind problems of both types in most disciplines. So much of this training is repetition and muscle memory. 

Yes, for the obedience, absolutely, but for the scent work - no. I do know a few SAR dogs who were ruined by ecollar training and Lou has addressed that in his minimalist approach to training SAR and LE working dogs so as not to create the "velcro" dog. You should read his articles on that. Like I said, I do use corrections for obedience issues but not for issues encountered during scent work. What I have seen when it is taken too far is a dog who will not work independently but expects direction for every action.

The trainer who suggested I not use it did so, in part, because most of the folks he knew who would be working with me use methods more heavy handed than what I would have needed for this dog and for this application.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

This is the quote I'm referring to specifically, to clarify.

(Emphasis mine)



sabledog3 said:


> The* British military trains their dogs with positive only methods*  I was lucky enough to get to work with some retired Belgian mals and they were so perfectly trained.


----------



## NancyJ

I was referring to Bailiff indicating there are consequences for failure of a bomb dog.

It would be nice to have more insight on those choke chains. They are way too long on the dogs to be effective as a correction tool.


----------



## simba405

Choke chains/prong could be for control more than for corrections depending on how it's used. 

I have no dog in this fight. Just found it interesting that one person who has actually worked with British handlers say one thing and then another person who has probably never met a British handler in her life looks up articles on the Internet to try to discredit.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Understood, that was meant for someone else. 

The first pic the chain looks about right, but yeah, I was wondering about the second pic too. The only thing I could think of is corrections might be less noticeable, visually, when the chain is that long. Or the handler can grab the chain should the leash break?




jocoyn said:


> I was referring to Bailiff indicating there are consequences for failure of a bomb dog.
> 
> It would be nice to have more insight on those choke chains. They are way too long on the dogs to be effective as a correction tool.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

It's very easy, usually, to discredit blanket statements like that.

Further the comments were *later* clarified to mean retired detection dogs only. 

Not exactly the same as working with active duty *patrol* dogs and one doesn't need to google anything to discern the difference.

However, if you've got some concrete evidence the *patrol* dogs aren't choked off of bites in combat, but rather clicked off with cookies, by all means share.



simba405 said:


> Choke chains/prong could be for control more than for corrections depending on how it's used.
> 
> I have no dog in this fight. Just found it interesting that one person who has actually worked with British handlers say one thing and then another person who has probably never met a British handler in her life looks up articles on the Internet to try to discredit.


----------



## Baillif

Pming instead of side tracking the topic of the thread.


----------



## simba405

Oh now we're specifically talking about patrol dogs? I guess those pics you found from Google are patrol and not bomb detection dogs? 

Like I said I have no dog in this fight and I most certainly do think aversives are used. Just found it funny you've never met a British handler in your life yet are so sure of how they train.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> PO people always adopt that "me thinks they doth protest too much" air that has a tendency to backfire upon closer inspection.


Now who is making blanket statements? Pot kettle.


----------



## Baillif

For the same reason you said you must certainly think aversives are used, maybe?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

When it comes to unqualified statements that the British Military use only PO methods I only need ONE example to debunk. 

Simple logic eh?

Funny indeed. 



simba405 said:


> Oh now we're specifically talking about patrol dogs? I guess those pics you found from Google are patrol and not bomb detection dogs?
> 
> Like I said I have no dog in this fight and I most certainly do think aversives are used. Just found it funny you've never met a British handler in your life yet are so sure of how they train.


----------



## Baillif

Maybe they were just using those choke chains because they thought they looked cool?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Got proof the British Military uses ONLY PO?



If not you're proving my statement as well. 

(Eta thanks too, LOL!)



glowingtoadfly said:


> Now who is making blanket statements? Pot kettle.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Mil Spec Bling!!!





Baillif said:


> Maybe they were just using those choke chains because they thought they looked cool?


----------



## Nigel

jocoyn said:


> I would like to know of any training method that uses aversives for detection/odor work. Can you please describe just one with which you are familiar? Maybe it is a terminology thing because I sincerely do not know of any and have been doing SAR since 1999 and Cadaver work since 2008.
> 
> Most of our best cadaver training has been with sheriff office and ex-MWD handlers who have taught us using their methods for drug and explosives training. Training logs are kept and reliability must be above 90-95% accuracy in blind problems of both types in most disciplines. So much of this training is repetition and muscle memory.
> 
> Yes, for the obedience, absolutely, but for the scent work - no. I do know a few SAR dogs who were ruined by ecollar training and Lou has addressed that in his minimalist approach to training SAR and LE working dogs so as not to create the "velcro" dog. You should read his articles on that. Like I said, I do use corrections for obedience issues but not for issues encountered during scent work. What I have seen when it is taken too far is a dog who will not work independently but expects direction for every action.
> 
> The trainer who suggested I not use it did so, in part, because most of the folks he knew who would be working with me use methods more heavy handed than what I would have needed for this dog and for this application.


There is a post from gsdsar in this thread that describes an e collar being used during scent work. It was to keep the dog from chasing deer though. I was reading this thread yesterday and just came across it, but I guess that will still apply to the OB part of it? Not sure. Post#35

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...365825-superstitious-behavior-e-collar-4.html


----------



## Baillif

Not to further side track the thread but when something is known by the dog then bad choices should be punished or at the very least strongly discouraged. I'll leave it at that.


----------



## simba405

Gwenhwyfair said:


> When it comes to unqualified statements that the British Military use only PO methods I only need ONE example to debunk.
> 
> Simple logic eh?
> 
> Funny indeed.


I wonder how smart you are if you didn't have Google? Bet you wouldn't be so smug and cheeky without the Internet eh? 

You should go out and train your dog instead of doing Internet searches all day. Those types of people end up with a 5 year old dog that can barely heel correctly off leash.


----------



## NancyJ

Nigel said:


> There is a post from gsdsar in this thread that describes an e collar being used during scent work. It was to keep the dog from chasing deer though. I was reading this thread yesterday and just came across it, but I guess that will still apply to the OB part of it? Not sure. Post#35
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...365825-superstitious-behavior-e-collar-4.html


That to me is the obedience issue. I would correct a dog who was chasing game not for not making the correct choice.


----------



## NancyJ

Baillif said:


> Not to further side track the thread but when something is known by the dog then bad choices should be punished or at the very least strongly discouraged. I'll leave it at that.


How do you even know sometimes when the dog has made the "wrong" choice on an odor problem? The dog is trained to indicate on the strongest concentration of odor. MOST of the time that is at the source of the odor. Not always. Like I said before dogs are not 100% reliable. Neither are people. Add in fatigue, complex situations, etc. If the dog is not reliable within established standards he should not be working.


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Got proof the British Military uses ONLY PO?
> 
> 
> 
> If not you're proving my statement as well.
> 
> (Eta thanks too, LOL!)


How does one person pointing out a blanket statement made by someone pointing out another's blanket statement prove that all positive only trainers protest too much and have their arguments fall apart under closer inspection. Please enlighten me.


----------



## gsdsar

I agree. It's an obedience issue. I have never seen a SAR handler correct a dog for NOT finding a scent. I have seen a correction for a dog not giving their full trained indication though. 

The most correction I have seen is pulling a dog off the area if they are putzing around. Some have even made the dog watch another work the same problem and get rewarded, then put their dog away. Not sure where that falls. But it can be very effective. 


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----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Oh so now you have to make it personal and get nasty?

First of all you keep saying "you don't have a dog in this fight" but keeping coming back at me?

Sable dog said his/her experience was with retired detection dogs NOT the entire British active duty dog training program.

You're inability to accept logical conclusions does not constitute poorly trained personal dogs on my part. 

So either you've got proof the British Military trains ONLY PO or you don't. If you don't then you're far more guilty of what you accuse me of.

Which is "funny" 






simba405 said:


> I wonder how smart you are if you didn't have Google? Bet you wouldn't be so smug and cheeky without the Internet eh?
> 
> You should go out and train your dog instead of doing Internet searches all day. Those types of people end up with a 5 year old dog that can barely heel correctly off leash.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Do you have proof that the British Military use PO methods ONLY or not?



glowingtoadfly said:


> How does one person pointing out a blanket statement made by someone pointing out another's blanket statement prove that all positive only trainers protest too much and have their arguments fall apart under closer inspection. Please enlighten me.


----------



## Baillif

gsdsar said:


> I agree. It's an obedience issue. I have never seen a SAR handler correct a dog for NOT finding a scent. I have seen a correction for a dog not giving their full trained indication though.
> 
> The most correction I have seen is pulling a dog off the area if they are putzing around. Some have even made the dog watch another work the same problem and get rewarded, then put their dog away. Not sure where that falls. But it can be very effective.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Right, and the pulling a dog off to watch another dog be successful and get rewarded falls under negative punishment, and yes it is very effective.


----------



## simba405

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Do you have proof that the British Military use PO methods ONLY or not?


And your proof is a couple of still photographs? 

And I wasn't being nasty. I was secretly hoping you'd make me eat crow by posting a video of your dog in a nice heel outside. Guess not....


----------



## glowingtoadfly

I never stated that I had proof of that. I was able to find a PDF that mentioned positive training by the British military but was unable to cite it because it is not a webpage. I simply wonder why you made the blanket statement about all positive only people. All people who train a certain way are not the same and it is impossible to prove that they are, especially by the statements of a few people arguing a point on the internet.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Well, I guess not.

Which means that it's an attempt to validate a pre-formed opinion, that later turns into a red herring followed by personal bashing (not you GTF, at least not yet) which is usually what happens on internet 'debates'.

Argumentum ad populum, is another way to put it, if "the military" does it (in this case PO) then that must mean my beliefs about PO training are true.

Nope, especially when there is evidence to the contrary.


----------



## gsdsar

Baillif said:


> Right, and the pulling a dog off to watch another dog be successful and get rewarded falls under negative punishment, and yes it is very effective.



Thanks. Never been good with the terms. 

But just to clarify, it's not done to correct a dog for not finding someone. That's not done. As long as the dog trying and working, we let them. It's done to correct a dog for not "working". 

For example. My lab is a "victim shopper". She searches, finds all the victims then picks one to indicate at. It's was a pain. So, if she went on the pile, found a victim and gave ANY indication(usually a single bark) then moved away, we pulled her off the pile. She is not allowed to give a bad indication. She then watched another dog search and get rewarded. 

It worked. The shopping is extinguished. So it was not a correction for failure to find, it was a correction for failure to fulfill her trained indication. 


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## Gwenhwyfair

While you may not hold those photos to be enough evidence for your purposes, no one has yet provided anything concrete to the contrary.

Further, none of us, including sable dog, are active duty British Military dog handlers (unless you are?) therefore we *all* can only go on logic, experience with dogs (experience with bite work is a plus even if non military) and deduction.

It's a fair deduction to conclude if there are multiple picture of dogs with choke chains on that they are using aversives. 

Oh the heck you were being nasty, but it's typical of internet "debates". You'd rather bash me then admit that maybe I have a fair point. 

Same old, same old..... Red herring salad I didn't expect anything different. :shrug:



simba405 said:


> And your proof is a couple of still photographs?
> 
> And I wasn't being nasty. I was secretly hoping you'd make me eat crow by posting a video of your dog in a nice heel outside. Guess not....


----------



## Baillif

I never said use of aversives a dog for failure to find nor was I implying it. Failure to indicate properly sure. Failure to work a problem yeah. Screwing around and looking for moles, rabbits, or eating poop, yeah.

However, on sport exercises where a dowel must be returned if they come back with the wrong one then yeah you punish for that at some point.


----------



## NancyJ

My response is metered in light of the intent of this thread for the use of ecollars to correct dogs. Terminology aside I would not put taking a dog away, or even taking him to a source and prompting the correct behavior in the same context. This may be an issue of terminology. I am assuming you were referring to physically correcting a dog for not offering an indication.

If I had a problem, however, with an indication I would prompt the indication on that instance and go back to some fast motivional foundation training on the wall or with box drills.

Putting a dog up for not working is common and very effective.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

...actually this whole tangent started with a comment intended to *indicate* that PO works for every dog....detection dog or not.

Which is also saying, by default, ecollars are not needed or necessary.


----------



## David Winners

I have experience with British SSD trainers. These are single purpose explosives dogs. The trainers I know (3) all use aversives in training and proofing obedience.

The only time I have ever used or seen +P used in detection is for a passive alert dog aggressing on a hide.

David Winners


----------



## Steve Strom

David Winners said:


> I have experience with British SSD trainers. These are single purpose explosives dogs. The trainers I know (3) all use aversives in training and proofing obedience.
> 
> The only time I have ever used or seen +P used in detection is for a passive alert dog aggressing on a hide.
> 
> David Winners


 That'd be a problem huh. Find Timmy. Chomp!


----------



## bill

Me personally' I think tracking is the most fun' easy to teach what you want' because you are showing what you want the dog to find' you are using the natural ability they are born with' they come out of the womb sniffing and never stop.
I have no problem giving a correction for a known command to proof in ob. But when it comes to tracking it is different than teaching something unnatural to the dog such as heeling.
Putting the dog up' watching others work they can learn so much watching! If a child is playing basketball and misses the basket you practice more you don't punish' bye shouting you encourage! Jmo Bill

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----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Thanks David.

Now you will need to provide video of you and Fama at a perfect IPO style competition heel to prove that you know what you are talking about.

errr don't ask me why, that's just how these internet debates go.  

(but really thanks for chiming in, good to get info from someone like yourself!)




David Winners said:


> I have experience with British SSD trainers. These are single purpose explosives dogs. The trainers I know (3) all use aversives in training and proofing obedience.
> 
> The only time I have ever used or seen +P used in detection is for a passive alert dog aggressing on a hide.
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Baillif

David Winners said:


> I have experience with British SSD trainers. These are single purpose explosives dogs. The trainers I know (3) all use aversives in training and proofing obedience.
> 
> The only time I have ever used or seen +P used in detection is for a passive alert dog aggressing on a hide.
> 
> David Winners


Can be a problem when you're rewarding dogs with a bite at the end. They don't see the object to get a reward bite despite having found someone? Just pick something on the person!


----------



## simba405

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Thanks David.
> 
> Now you will need to provide video of you and Fama at a perfect IPO style competition heel to prove that you know what you are talking about.
> 
> errr don't ask me why, that's just how these internet debates go.
> 
> (but really thanks for chiming in, good to get info from someone like yourself!)


See the difference is David starts out by saying he has experience. You on the other hand not so much. You've never met a British handler in your life. He has. So therefore he doesn't need to show any videos. You on the other hand just talk talk talk like you know yet have no experience. All you did was Google a bunch of images and articles. 

Big difference eh?


----------



## lhczth

*ENOUGH of the back and forth bickering about the British Military dog handlers. It is like watching two 7 years old at the playground arguing over whose daddy is the strongest. Geesh. Any more posts on this particular topic will be deleted and the OP will receive a warning!!

Thank you David for your 1st hand experience on this subject and PUTTING IT TO REST. 

Now, please, back on topic. 

ADMIN*


----------



## Chip18

Well I'am not a pro on an E collar. Never knew about them my things was prong collars and using them wrong! First hand experience there and my argument was always "get training know what your doing!"

So pretty much same deal with an E collar. Still don't understand how you use it to get a dog to do something? But I get getting a dog to "not" do something!

I tried all the usually approaches for inter dog aggression with my GSD! I also learned that "yes" with me standing right on top of him "he will do that!!!????"

I couldn't move fast enough to stop him! 

I never plan on having "pack" issues problems in the future (welcome to GSD world!) but if I screw something up and it happens again! I only plan on it happening once! Stitches in my hand were not a lot of fun!

Don't know how to use it for fine tuning and such but do I do know how to use one to "stop" a dog from doing something!


----------



## jafo220

Chip18 said:


> Well I'am not a pro on an E collar. Never knew about them my things was prong collars and using them wrong! First hand experience there and my argument was always "get training know what your doing!"
> 
> So pretty much same deal with an E collar. Still don't understand how you use it to get a dog to do something? But I get getting a dog to "not" do something!
> 
> I tried all the usually approaches for inter dog aggression with my GSD! I also learned that "yes" with me standing right on top of him "he will do that!!!????"
> 
> I couldn't move fast enough to stop him!
> 
> I never plan on having "pack" issues problems in the future (welcome to GSD world!) but if I screw something up and it happens again! I only plan on it happening once! Stitches in my hand were not a lot of fun!
> 
> Don't know how to use it for fine tuning and such but do I do know how to use one to "stop" a dog from doing something!


Chip. The whole concept of getting a dog to execute a command with an e-collar is when he first is introduced to it, he gets a stim every time the command comes out of the trainer's mouth whether he executes the command correctly or not. That's where the praise comes into it. You still have to communicate to the dog when he does the command correctly and then he understands what is expected when the command is given. After awhile, the goal is to ween the dog off the collar. So you start giving the command without the stim. Only stim when he fails to execute the command given. The dog then learns the command to avoid the stim. It's all about avoiding the stimulation from the collar. Same with corrections. But slightly different approach in that the undesired behavior is not taught like you would a command. It only happens when the dog presents the unwanted behavior.

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## Baillif

To make that a little more simple.

When it is being used to teach on a working level it is used as a form of negative reinforcement. An annoyance that goes away when the dog does a desired behavior. Similar to when you start your car and don't buckle your seat belt and you hear that annoying dinging noise that only goes away when you put your seatbelt on. In essence it makes the performance of the behavior itself a rewarding activity, as opposed to needing to give a reward for the behavior.

When used to punish it is used at a higher level after an undesired behavior presents itself that will cause the dog to rethink ever doing that behavior again. Where a lot of people get caught up is they don't realize a dog failing to perform a known command is a behavior that can be punished and that this will cause the dog to not pick that choice as often.

Anyway...better living through electricity


----------



## Deno

Nothing can beat a remote correction.


----------



## Baillif

There are some things I haven't tried but I am inclined to agree.


----------



## NancyJ

This is a good article that describes negative punishment and high drive working dogs. Deb Palman is respected in the SAR community and has articles on the USPCAK9 web site. My other responses though were to physical correction. I don't consider controlling resources and environment to be the same as applying an aversive..

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Learning/negative_punishment.pdf


----------



## Baillif

They aren't negative punishment is negative punishment but I stated a few examples where aversives would have quickly fixed issues other people would have just repeated over and over and over and over.


----------



## selzer

I wonder if e-collars attract certain personalities, and if that has anything to do with why the e-collar debates are always heated. I too am tired of e-collars, but if I am really tired of the debate, I probably shouldn't click on the thread. The beauty of internet forums is that if you don't like something, you can just not go there.


----------



## simba405

I think things quickly get heated when the positive clicker people scream abuse when they've never used an ecollar before. 

I don't remember very many posts saying they've used the ecollar and what a horrible tool it was. It's usually from people who have never used one.


----------



## David Winners

Baillif said:


> Can be a problem when you're rewarding dogs with a bite at the end. They don't see the object to get a reward bite despite having found someone? Just pick something on the person!


Sorry for some potentially confusing terms.

Hide= narc or bomb training aid

Passive alert= final response for a find, such as a sit with focused stare

Aggress=dog paws at hide

So in a training scenario, the dogs are taught to sit and stare at the strongest odor source. Sometimes in excitement, the dog will paw or dig at the source to get closer to it. You can see how this may be a problem for a detection dog. 

A narc dog may scratch up the paint on a car, or harm a piece of furniture. A bomb dog may initiate the device.

So when the dog paws at the hide / training aid, you sometimes use a correction to stop the behavior, followed quickly by a command for the appropriate behavior.


This is an interesting topic, because I have been considering using negative reinforcement to increase search speed and pattern in competition Nosework. It's not something I would try with a working dog. Too much potential fallout. But I'm considering trying it with a dog new to detection in the early stages of imprinting to make it part of the game.

David Winners


----------



## jafo220

selzer said:


> I wonder if e-collars attract certain personalities, and if that has anything to do with why the e-collar debates are always heated. I too am tired of e-collars, but if I am really tired of the debate, I probably shouldn't click on the thread. The beauty of internet forums is that if you don't like something, you can just not go there.


The only reason I enter these debates is because I was a person who was not a pro e-collar advocate. I will admit, reading some of the propaganda here and other places was a big reason and I'll also admit I was scared to strap one on a dog. I will also admit the initial intro to the collar for the dog broke my heart at times. But I wade into these discussions because when used correctly it achieved good results quickly and basically changed our lives and our dogs life for the better. 

Not all dogs need it. There are dogs that do. It's a great tool that if used properly can eliminate tensions between handler and dog. I can also see where it can eliminate some real abuse of the dog or even keep a dog in a home that would have otherwise been sent to a shelter or rescue. Those are big positives. I guess I try to be the anti negative propaganda on e-collars. I don't try to talk anyone into getting one. If my dog were more mellow, I would have never got one. But I think debates on this are healthy just for the fact that you wade around the BS and get to the facts of it instead of just throwing half truths out there usually by people who have no experience with one. 

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## NancyJ

jafo, I feel much the same way as you. I get in people's faces when they just push people into it because it worked for them and their dog and then folks go out and buy one and start zapping their dog with high level stim and create more problems than they had. 

I have no issue, even with high stim, if the person knows what they are doing and is using it on the right dog. I am really gaining ground following the LE, though. Much less confrontation and clearer communication.


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## sabledog3

simba405 said:


> I think things quickly get heated when the positive clicker people scream abuse when they've never used an ecollar before.
> 
> I don't remember very many posts saying they've used the ecollar and what a horrible tool it was. It's usually from people who have never used one.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have used both ecollars and prong collars in the past. Then a found a better way 

Have you ever tried using only positive reinforcement before? It can be frustrating at times, but just try to work under the assumption that your dog is trying to be good. 

I do think there are a couple specific areas where the ecollar can be used (rattle snakes for example) other than that, is not very nice or fair to your dog, and there is a high risk of fall out.


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## David Winners

sabledog3 said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have used both ecollars and prong collars in the past. Then a found a better way
> 
> Have you ever tried using only positive reinforcement before? It can be frustrating at times, but just try to work under the assumption that your dog is trying to be good.
> 
> I do think there are a couple specific areas where the ecollar can be used (rattle snakes for example) other than that, is not very nice or fair to your dog, and there is a high risk of fall out.


Why is PO better in your opinion?

David Winners


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## misslesleedavis1

So I guess the debate can be summed up by saying,
People have dogs with all types of personalities, people can do what works best for their dog and it is not anyones business if they use a gentle leader or ecollar.

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## Baillif

The dog isn't always trying to be good. My dog knows how to contact heel perfectly with me. He knows how to contact heel perfectly with my buddy who is also a trainer that hardly ever works him. However when he is asked to contact heel by my girlfriend who he knows very well he does so loose and will sometimes just walk off or sniff stuff. He does it because he knows he can get away with it and do whatever he wants. So the assumption dogs are just trying to be good is patently and unequivocally false and working under that assumption is asking for a world of trouble. 

Real dog training is about shaping the decision of the dog. Do I stay with the behavior or do I go off and pee on that tree or chase the jogger? Without training and consequences for failure and success the dog goes with whatever choice it wants, usually the one it thinks is the most fun, but when there are unpleasant consequences the dog would like to avoid for any action the dog might take that we as trainers don't want to see, and a pleasant consequence for success be it toy treat or absence of pressure then the choice is made simple for the dog and it goes with the behavior (most of the time).

Not to say really good positive only trainers can't get really high reliability with their dogs under certain situations but the vast majority of those people can't, and the ones that do probably at some point end up frustrated and pressuring or punishing their dogs anyway and when they do it is probably out of anger and done incorrectly.


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## Nigel

jocoyn said:


> That to me is the obedience issue. I would correct a dog who was chasing game not for not making the correct choice.





gsdsar said:


> I agree. It's an obedience issue. I have never seen a SAR handler correct a dog for NOT finding a scent. I have seen a correction for a dog not giving their full trained indication though.
> 
> The most correction I have seen is pulling a dog off the area if they are putzing around. Some have even made the dog watch another work the same problem and get rewarded, then put their dog away. Not sure where that falls. But it can be very effective.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Ok, just had me a bit curious when I read it. I thought you'd want to squash the deer chasing in separate training session(s) vs while working on scent.


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## martemchik

So after reading through the last 10 pages (7 of which had nothing to do with said topic)…

My trainer and I tried to strap an ecollar onto my dog last week. It was for some control work because I wasn’t responding fast enough with a prong, and we figured an ecollar would be a bit more effective because its quicker, and the trainer would be able to control the correction (more experience, better timing).

Anyways, my dog didn’t feel it. He had absolutely zero reaction to a shock. The trainer tried it on the highest stim level, and still nothing.

So…moral of the story…when I read the posts from the guy who thinks that the ecollar is the safest way to train his dog to recall, or to not do something like run into the street and chase cars…I just don’t get it. Clearly, there are animals that don’t react to that type of correction, and at a certain level, unless you’re going to paralyze the dog so that it can’t “fight through” the correction, it’s not the “safest” way of training things. It just shows an unnecessary need to have an off-lead dog, before a dog is ready to be off-lead, in an area where being off-lead is inherently dangerous, and finding a tool that will lead to that situation seeming “safe.” But I’ll just always question why the dog needs to be off-lead before its ready to and what the problem is with keeping a dog on-lead.

It’s possible to train a recall without an ecollar, it’s possible to train a recall properly with an ecollar using it as a marker, and it’s possible to train one in the way that you just cause pain to the dog until it comes back to you.

Most of us, would easily be able to tell how a dog was trained just by looking at it work or respond to the command from the handler. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people that could care less how the dog looks when in responds and WHY the dog is listening to the command. Those of us that are looking for a happy/attentive dog due to trialing points, care how we train our dog, but there are tons out there that just need a 100% recall and they don’t care how they get it. I’ve met a lot more people that use an ecollar improperly, than those that use is properly. That’s really my only reservation when it comes to the ecollar and why I don’t recommend it to people. I think it’s much harder to mess up a dog using a prong, than using an ecollar.


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## Baillif

The reciever wasn't making contact with the dogs neck. There is no chance at least with the collars I use that a dog will just be completely non reactive to a max level stim. If it's making good contact and in snug you will at the very least see involuntary muscle contraction.

Not saying I haven't seen dogs who can fight through it anyway (it always seems to be a pit bull), but they were definitely feeling it.


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## NancyJ

Nigel said:


> Ok, just had me a bit curious when I read it. I thought you'd want to squash the deer chasing in separate training session(s) vs while working on scent.


If I had a problem like that, I would correct it on the spot. The dog is no longer working at that point. I would then come up with a plan to desensitize the dog to deer outside of scent training.


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## martemchik

Baillif said:


> The reciever wasn't making contact with the dogs neck. There is no chance at least with the collars I use that a dog will just be completely non reactive to a max level stim. If it's making good contact and in snug you will at the very least see involuntary muscle contraction.
> 
> Not saying I haven't seen dogs who can fight through it anyway (it always seems to be a pit bull), but they were definitely feeling it.


I'm not here to argue with someone who wasn't there about if the receiver was or wasn't making contact. I can guarantee you that it was...my dog just didn't care. This isn't the first time he has shown his high pain tolerance. Trust me, the guy I work with is extremely well qualified and is a very respected helper and trainer.

I actually wish he did react to it, it would've made the training easier, faster, more effective. The point is, that people who go to this tool, claiming its the safest method, is bull. A leash in hand is always the safest thing for your dog.


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## Baillif

I've seen dogs run out of levels on collars, but you made it sound like you got zero reaction out of the dog. 

People who have dogs with a high pain tolerance like this generally can't get reactions out of them with prongs either unless they are close to jerking the dog off its feet so the assumption is naturally user error for the collar.


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## martemchik

But a prong at least provides a physical barrier/form of restraint, so even if the dog isn't really responding to the pain from the prong, you can at least prevent whatever it is you're trying to prevent.

I'm sure even you've witnessed dogs that when in drive don't mind the correction that much, and that's what we were seeing with my dog on a prong...so we tried an ecollar and didn't get the result we wanted either. With a prong and a leash, I was at least able to have some control of the dog in order to teach the exercise...


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## jafo220

sabledog3 said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have used both ecollars and prong collars in the past. Then a found a better way
> 
> Have you ever tried using only positive reinforcement before? It can be frustrating at times, but just try to work under the assumption that your dog is trying to be good.
> 
> I do think there are a couple specific areas where the ecollar can be used (rattle snakes for example) other than that, is not very nice or fair to your dog, and there is a high risk of fall out.


The key word in your whole post is the word "frustrating". Believe me when I tell you, dogs can sense your frustrations and will shut down at times. They can also sense confidence, whether your using an e-collar or positive reinforcement training. Either way, using an e-collar, can honestly say, has never been frustrating. Once I understood the use of an e-collar, there were no confidence issues either. If an e-collar can take those human emotions out of the equation, there is not much for the dog to focus in on but executing the commands to avoid the stims. Which in the end is better for everyone involved. Once the dog understands your emotionally stressed, they get stressed and then they start running over you. Been there seen that and not just from my dog but other dogs I've been through positive reinforcement training with.......twice. Not all dogs.



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## Sarah~

Baillif said:


> Not saying I haven't seen dogs who can fight through it anyway (it always seems to be a pit bull), but they were definitely feeling it.


That's why I don't use a prong on my pit bull mix, she has a lot of pain tolerance nothing really seems to faze her. I've pulled Eko off of her because they were playing too rough and she will have a huge bruise from him slamming her to the ground. I never hear a yelp or anything, though, she just gets even more excited.


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## Nigel

martemchik said:


> But a prong at least provides a physical barrier/form of restraint, so even if the dog isn't really responding to the pain from the prong, you can at least prevent whatever it is you're trying to prevent.
> 
> I'm sure even you've witnessed dogs that when in drive don't mind the correction that much, and that's what we were seeing with my dog on a prong...so we tried an ecollar and didn't get the result we wanted either. With a prong and a leash, I was at least able to have some control of the dog in order to teach the exercise...


What kind of exercise were you doing?


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## martemchik

The "friendly greeting" in SDA work.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

Baillif said:


> The dog isn't always trying to be good. My dog knows how to contact heel perfectly with me. He knows how to contact heel perfectly with my buddy who is also a trainer that hardly ever works him. However when he is asked to contact heel by my girlfriend who he knows very well he does so loose and will sometimes just walk off or sniff stuff. He does it because he knows he can get away with it and do whatever he wants. So the assumption dogs are just trying to be good is patently and unequivocally false and working under that assumption is asking for a world of trouble.
> 
> Real dog training is about shaping the decision of the dog. Do I stay with the behavior or do I go off and pee on that tree or chase the jogger? Without training and consequences for failure and success the dog goes with whatever choice it wants, usually the one it thinks is the most fun, but when there are unpleasant consequences the dog would like to avoid for any action the dog might take that we as trainers don't want to see, and a pleasant consequence for success be it toy treat or absence of pressure then the choice is made simple for the dog and it goes with the behavior (most of the time).
> 
> Not to say really good positive only trainers can't get really high reliability with their dogs under certain situations but the vast majority of those people can't, and the ones that do probably at some point end up frustrated and pressuring or punishing their dogs anyway and when they do it is probably out of anger and done incorrectly.


Bailiff,

This is one of the best posts I have seen here. The vast majority of my animal training has been many years with horses, same amount (or more) with dogs, although with dogs on a companion level, some obedience showing, not much, didn't have time. But both horses and dogs are intelligent enough to recognize consequences from their own actions, choices they make. I used to be against ecollars, but from this forum have changed my opinion, and am strongly considering using one with my rescue GSD bitch who is extremely DA. She has made a lot of improvement since I got her, but an ecollar would hasten the process (she makes my dog-owning neighbors very nervous). From what I have read from you, David, and others, the ecollar is a tool. Any tool is only as good as the person who uses it. I equate it to using the tools we have available for horses--lunge whip, riding crop, spade bit with long shanks, slender snaffle bit as opposed to a thick snaffle with d-rings, different types of spurs, bitting harness, lead chain over the poll and through the halter ring, twitch, many others. Many ways to abuse a horse if used incorrectly (or in anger or frustration). But good tools to be used in light hands with good timing.

So for those professionals who share their knowledge here, thank you!

Susan


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## Steve Strom

martemchik said:


> The "friendly greeting" in SDA work.


 Lol. In the context of what you said. That just reads kinda funny Martemchik.


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## Baillif

martemchik said:


> But a prong at least provides a physical barrier/form of restraint, so even if the dog isn't really responding to the pain from the prong, you can at least prevent whatever it is you're trying to prevent.
> 
> I'm sure even you've witnessed dogs that when in drive don't mind the correction that much, and that's what we were seeing with my dog on a prong...so we tried an ecollar and didn't get the result we wanted either. With a prong and a leash, I was at least able to have some control of the dog in order to teach the exercise...


Also for clarification when I say safe correction I mean it's safest to deliver a high level of consequence to the dog without worry about causing permanent injury to the dog. What I did not mean was safe as in it is the only thing keeping your dog from going after a person or another animal. You want restraint even if it isn't going after someone in case you make a mistake or the dog spooks and decides to try to escape the collar by running.


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## selzer

simba405 said:


> I think things quickly get heated when the positive clicker people scream abuse when they've never used an ecollar before.
> 
> I don't remember very many posts saying they've used the ecollar and what a horrible tool it was. It's usually from people who have never used one.


I am anti-gadgets. I don't use clickers, or prongs, or e-collars. I use my voice, and generally a martingale or a flat collar. I am also pretty scarce with treats, especially after that first basic obedience or puppy class. 

I don't think there is any such thing as PO. There are those who can try to train with all positive methods and no punishment, but most of them have some type of negative marker, even if it is a lack of praise and repeat. I think our body language speaks volumes to dogs, and one cannot possibly have a dog do the wrong thing without responding in any way whatsoever. 

It is not the shouts and yelling that is best heard. Why do kids do the same thing over again after a good berating? What do kids best hear? What you are all whispering about in the kitchen -- and that will stay with them too. Dogs are not so different. They gravitate toward the person who ignores them. They listen to the person who uses few commands, and they can respond much better to body language than to shouts and stern commands. How can anyone profess positive only. 

The problem with those who feel they require certain tools to get the response they want and that it cannot be gotten with less aversive techniques, is they feel threatened by the people who proclaim that positive training techniques are the way to go. Of course the positive people are positive about it, just like the people who use the other tools are positive about their methods being the only thing that will work. The people are reacting to their own impressions of the tools and how they must look, and feel that positive people are passing judgement on them. That's where the anger comes from, from feeling threatened, and inner feeling of guilt, or being they are not good enough at training/leading/managing their dogs. And so they respond with belittling people: Oh, honey don't bite the little boy, here's a cookie, come and get the cookie instead. 

What comes out is not so much that Positive people do not understand the correction collars, but that the people who feel threatened by the positive people and thus are loud and obnoxious about it, really don't understand positive training at all. Click, treat -- that is the same as putting an e-collar onto the max level and firing away, well the level of understanding is. 

Positive training techniques do work, and you can have rock solid performance with positive training. Training dogs to behave using physical corrections work also, else it would not still be used. Those of us that have gone from primarily training with physical corrections and have moved onto primarily training with motivation and praise, do feel that we have progressed, because we have. Our previous methods were not right for us or our dogs, and we have found better methods for us, else we would have abandoned them. 

I think it part of human nature to share what we took some time figuring out for ourselves, and some people can be a bit brazen about it. Maybe not every one out there yanking and cranking or zapping their dog is being abusive. Some are. They may be excellent trainers, using tools that make some things easier, and some things more reliable. For example, how can you ensure that your dog will continue to do his job through painful resistance, without ever having experienced any physical unpleasantness? 

People can also progress from positive techniques to physical corrections, when the positive techniques do not give them the success that they had anticipated. Positive people will generally say that the techniques were not properly and consistently applied -- there is always an out. But someone who gave it a try, and found that he had better success with a prong or e-collar, is going to feel the same way positive people do when they progressed from one style of training to another. They will want to share their experience with people. 

It is all really silly. If you do not feel guilty or inept, then why the anger? Why belittle others? Why not just shake your head and plug onward? Or, educate people, as many people do here, if you are concerned with the AR people taking away some of your tools. Making fun of people, being angry, criticizing does not win people over, and it does not educate. It is totally pointless. It maybe makes us feel a little superior, having gained a telling point in our own eyes, but that is short lived. 

Regardless of the tools you use or don't use, bad training is bad training. Bad training is rampant in those who try to do it positive, and those who try to use tools. And don't even get me going about the _balanced _buzz word.


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## Nigel

Steve Strom said:


> Lol. In the context of what you said. That just reads kinda funny Martemchik.


Agreed, Being new to most dog sports, had I not seen some of mycrobraracer's pics/posts and getting at least a minimal understanding of what that entails, I'd have thought he was being a SA, lol


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## martemchik

Steve Strom said:


> Lol. In the context of what you said. That just reads kinda funny Martemchik.


How so?


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## martemchik

Baillif said:


> Also for clarification when I say safe correction I mean it's safest to deliver a high level of consequence to the dog without worry about causing permanent injury to the dog. What I did not mean was safe as in it is the only thing keeping your dog from going after a person or another animal. You want restraint even if it isn't going after someone in case you make a mistake or the dog spooks and decides to try to escape the collar by running.


I understood that, my point on safe was the fact that too many times I'm reading and seeing the fact that people want to use an ecollar because they want to walk their dog down the street without a leash, or I believe in the case of the poster in question, the dog liked to chase cars...and an ecollar was the chosen solution. Sorry...I don't believe a dog needs to be off-lead when walking on a sidewalk that's 5 feet away from a road, but if you want it done, I'd still suggest training with a leash because if all the sudden the dog decides to not react to the correction...its in the road.

When someone (off this forum) tells me they trained their dog to do X with an ecollar, usually involves an almost paralyzing shock that just forces the dog to stop dead in its tracks and stop whatever its doing. Sorry...not my cup of tea when it comes to training a dog, but again, those people don't care...they love showing how much better control they have of their dog than I do.


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## martemchik

Nigel said:


> Agreed, Being new to most dog sports, had I not seen some of mycrobraracer's pics/posts and getting at least a minimal understanding of what that entails, I'd have thought he was being a SA, lol


So...someone that has never trained a dog to do the exercise in question is questioning how its being done? I'm intrigued...


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## Steve Strom

martemchik said:


> How so?


 Just funny as in hahaha. Needing firm corrections, restraint for a friendly greeting. I don't even know what the exercise is, so I'm not questioning anything, it just read funny to me.


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## Nigel

martemchik said:


> So...someone that has never trained a dog to do the exercise in question is questioning how its being done? I'm intrigued...


Go ahead a be intrigued! Geez, Just try to understand what you trying to accomplish with the e collar, maybe learn something, but never mind, Smh


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## David Winners

Here is the difference for me on a fundamental level between using the e-collar versus other aversives.

When done properly, the dog associates the behavior it is doing with the consequences, instead of its behavior driving the handler to apply consequences.

I believe this difference creates or modifies behavior in a way that doesn't change as proximity to the handler changes.

David Winners


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## martemchik

Nigel said:


> Agreed, Being new to most dog sports, had I not seen some of mycrobraracer's pics/posts and getting at least a minimal understanding of what that entails, I'd have thought he was being a SA, lol


This was the way for you to ask me to explain what was trying to be achieved? Calling me a SA? I'm so confused...does that work in real life?

The friendly greeting is where the helper comes up to you with your dog in standard position and you have to shake hands, have a "friendly greeting" without the dog attacking/biting the sleeve or the coat. Having worked hard to develop drive, we have started to teach the dog to control the drive and himself. So the ecollar was going to be a correction to when he would try to lunge for the bite. The ecollar correction is much quicker, and more exact than a prong, because by the time I see my dog reacting, process, then make the correction myself, its probably too late as the helper is standing 6 inches away from me and the dog. An ecollar correction could be done, make the dog hold his position, then get rewarded for staying still by getting a bite...in my case, this wasn't possible.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> Here is the difference for me on a fundamental level between using the e-collar versus other aversives.
> 
> When done properly, the dog associates the behavior it is doing with the consequences, instead of its behavior driving the handler to apply consequences.
> 
> I believe this difference creates or modifies behavior in a way that doesn't change as proximity to the handler changes.
> 
> David Winners


Exactly!


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## Nigel

martemchik said:


> This was the way for you to ask me to explain what was trying to be achieved? Calling me a SA? I'm so confused...does that work in real life?
> 
> The friendly greeting is where the helper comes up to you with your dog in standard position and you have to shake hands, have a "friendly greeting" without the dog attacking/biting the sleeve or the coat. Having worked hard to develop drive, we have started to teach the dog to control the drive and himself. So the ecollar was going to be a correction to when he would try to lunge for the bite. The ecollar correction is much quicker, and more exact than a prong, because by the time I see my dog reacting, process, then make the correction myself, its probably too late as the helper is standing 6 inches away from me and the dog. An ecollar correction could be done, make the dog hold his position, then get rewarded for staying still by getting a bite...in my case, this wasn't possible.


Never called you SA did I? I only said I might have thought that had I not looked into previous threads and getting a glimpse into what that entails! Prior to seeing others post information on SDA events, the only "friendly greeting" I knew of was from OB classes, which with that in mind would look like a ridiculous reason to use an e collar. We do not have a lot of local opportunity to even spectate SDA, IPO, etc... let alone participate so its nice when those that do share their experiences.


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## martemchik

Here's the proof of how regular people imagine an ecollar works...

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...here-find/448729-e-collar-my-5-month-old.html 

No offense to the OP on that thread, and he kind of figured out what was going on, but his initial thought process is not unlike what most people have. I'm only using that thread as an example because its so relevant to this discussion. People see the ecollar as an emergency brake. And the only way to have the ecollar as an emergency brake, is to make a correction hard enough that it will stop a dog dead in its tracks no matter what its going after. Sure...it might only take a level 10 nick to stop a puppy...but its still shutting the dog down and correcting for something the dog doesn't understand and wasn't taught. People don't mind because its only level 10 and not 95, but its still IMO a very unfair correction if you do that to a dog because it doesn't understand what you want from it because the handler was too lazy, or wants to rush the dog along without properly teaching what is expected.

That type of use of an ecollar is what I see...and that is the type of use I'm against.


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## Steve Strom

martemchik said:


> Here's the proof of how regular people imagine an ecollar works...
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...here-find/448729-e-collar-my-5-month-old.html
> 
> No offense to the OP on that thread, and he kind of figured out what was going on, but his initial thought process is not unlike what most people have. I'm only using that thread as an example because its so relevant to this discussion. People see the ecollar as an emergency brake. And the only way to have the ecollar as an emergency brake, is to make a correction hard enough that it will stop a dog dead in its tracks no matter what its going after. Sure...it might only take a level 10 nick to stop a puppy...but its still shutting the dog down and correcting for something the dog doesn't understand and wasn't taught. People don't mind because its only level 10 and not 95, but its still IMO a very unfair correction if you do that to a dog because it doesn't understand what you want from it because the handler was too lazy, or wants to rush the dog along without properly teaching what is expected.
> 
> That type of use of an ecollar is what I see...and that is the type of use I'm against.


 To a certain point, I'm not so sure emergency brake is really so wrong. One good correction to end something dangerous is why I got one. I think at the opposite end, the whole great way to communicate angle can fall into nagging and be even worse.


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## martemchik

Steve Strom said:


> To a certain point, I'm not so sure emergency brake is really so wrong. One good correction to end something dangerous is why I got one. I think at the opposite end, the whole great way to communicate angle can fall into nagging and be even worse.


I get 100% what you’re saying…but it’s based off of the fact that we have different expectations from our dogs and what we want to see out of them. I’ve seen that kind of “training” and what it has done to a dog. There are a bunch of buzz words out there for how dogs react when they’ve been trained improperly with an ecollar and unfortunately most people don’t notice or care about those things. It’s not embarrassing to a lot of people when they call their dog, zap it, and it comes with its ears back in a half crouch…they think that’s success. I’ve actually had people brag about it when my dog was younger and distracted so he didn’t recall 100% of the time. I looked at it as an unfair situation to my dog…lots of stimulus, and not enough training on my part to have taught him that he needs to ignore the other things and do what is asked of him.

In a perfect world I'd be able to watch you work with your dog and see how successful your training is. That way I'd fully understand your expectations and goals from your dog and then make the judgment if you've used an ecollar properly or not.

Sorry…but if you’re (general) just zapping your dog to keep him close to you, all it’s learning is that as long as I stay by my handler, I won’t feel pain. It’s not actually “learning” any commands or directions.


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## Baillif

That's not what Martemchik means. The e collar can't be reliably used as an emergency break in the sense that you can't just say no and blast a dog for doing something like running for a road or chasing a jogger and expect it to end there everytime with every dog out there.

The e collar stim could just make the dog run in panic or cause pain elicited aggression or something like that. 

You have to take precautions until you are sure you have the dog trained for lots of situations.

For example. There are some dogs that are either nervy or aggressive to people or animals where I would never want a client doing off leash training with an e collar. I'd train the dog to have the collar on while on leash for additional control, but as for just letting it run without restraint no.

Even the dogs with good temperament and no issues like that it's always advised they at the very least make the dog drag a long line or something like that in case the dog tries to get away from them or something.

I know what I am doing and I take the time to properly layer things and even then there are some dogs that get spooked for one reason or another and attempt to bolt to avoid an collar correction once we are in the proofing phase. You have to have something in place to prevent the dog from seeing that as an option or it can become a conditioned behavior. It isn't such a big deal when it happens here as the area is fenced in and the dog can't really go anywhere and I can make the dog realize why it is a bad idea to repeat the behavior, but I am smart about it. You can't just take a dog off leash somewhere unless you are sure you have the behavior. The e collar isn't a stun gun. You can't just drop a dog with it.

Now on the other hand you can achieve a very very reliable level of behavior like contact heel or something like that despite distraction. It is a process and it takes gradually increasing levels of distraction and consequence and a high level of relationship, and consistency to create. It isn't just done with the push of a button. Everything needs to be slanted toward getting the dog to choose the behavior vs everything else.

Which leads me back to something I said in the beginning. If you don't know how to create something without a tool you are probably not qualified to use it.


----------



## David Winners

I'll do it. I can record and post video of a dog start to finish including proofing. I think it would help people understand that it's not all zap and fear. 

I don't nag a dog with the collar either. Once it understands the behaviors and is proofed under distraction, I will give a hard correction for disobedience. For general behavior and OB it's rarely necessary for anything outside recall.

David Winners


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## Steve Strom

martemchik said:


> I get 100% what you’re saying…but it’s based off of the fact that we have different expectations from our dogs and what we want to see out of them. I’ve seen that kind of “training” and what it has done to a dog. There are a bunch of buzz words out there for how dogs react when they’ve been trained improperly with an ecollar and unfortunately most people don’t notice or care about those things. It’s not embarrassing to a lot of people when they call their dog, zap it, and it comes with its ears back in a half crouch…they think that’s success. I’ve actually had people brag about it when my dog was younger and distracted so he didn’t recall 100% of the time. I looked at it as an unfair situation to my dog…lots of stimulus, and not enough training on my part to have taught him that he needs to ignore the other things and do what is asked of him.
> 
> In a perfect world I'd be able to watch you work with your dog and see how successful your training is. That way I'd fully understand your expectations and goals from your dog and then make the judgment if you've used an ecollar properly or not.
> 
> Sorry…but if you’re (general) just zapping your dog to keep him close to you, all it’s learning is that as long as I stay by my handler, I won’t feel pain. It’s not actually “learning” any commands or directions.


 That's not what I mean. If its to stop something dangerous, you can create an association with decent timing. I'm not saying just zap them till they come back. I'm not even talking about a recall, and I don't mean that you don't do any kind of training separate of it.


The specific reason I used it was my Rott blasting through the screen to chase squirrels. It was to let him think his action of touching the screen caused it. I didn't just strap it on and do it. Really my point was more of a general one that low level can cause problems too.


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## jafo220

David Winners said:


> I'll do it. I can record and post video of a dog start to finish including proofing. I think it would help people understand that it's not all zap and fear.
> 
> I don't nag a dog with the collar either. Once it understands the behaviors and is proofed under distraction, I will give a hard correction for disobedience. For general behavior and OB it's rarely necessary for anything outside recall.
> 
> David Winners


Exactly.


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## simba405

martemchik said:


> So after reading through the last 10 pages (7 of which had nothing to do with said topic)…
> 
> My trainer and I tried to strap an ecollar onto my dog last week. It was for some control work because I wasn’t responding fast enough with a prong, and we figured an ecollar would be a bit more effective because its quicker, and the trainer would be able to control the correction (more experience, better timing).
> 
> Anyways, my dog didn’t feel it. He had absolutely zero reaction to a shock. The trainer tried it on the highest stim level, and still nothing.
> 
> So…moral of the story…when I read the posts from the guy who thinks that the ecollar is the safest way to train his dog to recall, or to not do something like run into the street and chase cars…I just don’t get it. Clearly, there are animals that don’t react to that type of correction, and at a certain level, unless you’re going to paralyze the dog so that it can’t “fight through” the correction, it’s not the “safest” way of training things. It just shows an unnecessary need to have an off-lead dog, before a dog is ready to be off-lead, in an area where being off-lead is inherently dangerous, and finding a tool that will lead to that situation seeming “safe.” But I’ll just always question why the dog needs to be off-lead before its ready to and what the problem is with keeping a dog on-lead.
> 
> It’s possible to train a recall without an ecollar, it’s possible to train a recall properly with an ecollar using it as a marker, and it’s possible to train one in the way that you just cause pain to the dog until it comes back to you.
> 
> Most of us, would easily be able to tell how a dog was trained just by looking at it work or respond to the command from the handler. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people that could care less how the dog looks when in responds and WHY the dog is listening to the command. Those of us that are looking for a happy/attentive dog due to trialing points, care how we train our dog, but there are tons out there that just need a 100% recall and they don’t care how they get it. I’ve met a lot more people that use an ecollar improperly, than those that use is properly. That’s really my only reservation when it comes to the ecollar and why I don’t recommend it to people. I think it’s much harder to mess up a dog using a prong, than using an ecollar.


Let me guess. The dog hasn't been on the ecollar before and then you just strapped it on and immediately started working the dog? Sometimes the dog doesn't realize what this weird sensation is so they work through it. If that's the case then not as great of a trainer as you think. 

Unless you're using some crappy petsmart collar I HIGHLY doubt your dog didn't feel it. I agree with bailiff it probably wasn't put on right. Did you see the dogs neck twitch? Try max stimming yourself on the neck. I GUARANTEE your neck will involuntary twitch and there's no way you can control it. So unless your dog is some alien dog his neck will twitch. A level 50 stim on my dogtra already had my dogs neck twitching. 

Either way if your dog can completely blow off a max level stim you would rather correct with a prong? A dog that hard you must be yanking the dog completely sideways for him to feel it. Sounds much more dangerous on the dog physically than an ecollat correction.


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## jafo220

martemchik said:


> I get 100% what you’re saying…but it’s based off of the fact that we have different expectations from our dogs and what we want to see out of them. I’ve seen that kind of “training” and what it has done to a dog. There are a bunch of buzz words out there for how dogs react when they’ve been trained improperly with an ecollar and unfortunately most people don’t notice or care about those things. It’s not embarrassing to a lot of people when they call their dog, zap it, and it comes with its ears back in a half crouch…they think that’s success. I’ve actually had people brag about it when my dog was younger and distracted so he didn’t recall 100% of the time. I looked at it as an unfair situation to my dog…lots of stimulus, and not enough training on my part to have taught him that he needs to ignore the other things and do what is asked of him.
> 
> In a perfect world I'd be able to watch you work with your dog and see how successful your training is. That way I'd fully understand your expectations and goals from your dog and then make the judgment if you've used an ecollar properly or not.
> 
> Sorry…but if you’re (general) just zapping your dog to keep him close to you, all it’s learning is that as long as I stay by my handler, I won’t feel pain. It’s not actually “learning” any commands or directions.


A command should always accompany any stimulation with an e-collar. Come (our recall command), Sit, wait, this way, heel and place are all commands Cruz has learned in a little over three weeks in that order. Not 100% proofed but close. In a dog park we use as training around distraction, we may stim him 25% of the time depending on the situation and that's using low level stims 98% of the time. Rarely have we ever used stims at a high level in the dog park. That's pretty good and he improves every time we go. Without the e-collar training, it was free frickin willy crazy time. An yes, that's the point on being stimulated, is the dog not wanting the stimulation. With commands used with stimulations, yes they are learning commands. I'm sitting here writing this with Cruz directly behind me at the top of the stairs in a "wait" that my wife put him in without any stim from the e-collar. He stayed in his wait for almost 5 minutes and was released without one single stim. Yep, they can learn commands from an e-collar if properly trained and with low or no stress. It's a clear line of communication between the dog and handler.

Also I'll point out that my remote goes from 1 to 7 with three buttons. first button is what ever the number is set on. The second is a half level higher and the third on the side of the remote is the setting times 2. The collar has three levels 1 thru 3 and 99% of the time, it's always on level 1 the lowest setting. With the collar in your hand you can't hardly feel 1 setting. 2 setting is a little like sticking your tongue on a 9volt battery, 3 will make your muscles in your hand at the contacts location twitch but still no pain. It's a system made by "Sport Dog". I'm just putting this out there because there is a misconception with the word "stimulation" that it always means it's painful and it's not. I'm sure much higher setting are, but you don't sit there holding the button either. I will use 1 thru 3 setting when training a command. Also depending on distraction proofing it may have to go higher, maybe a 4 thru 6 but rarely. Once I have to go higher, I immediately dial the remote back to 1. I don't constantly use 5 or higher all the time and try to not use the remote at all when possible. Just stopping will redirect his attention back to me most times and we practice this on a regular basis on walks.


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## martemchik

simba405 said:


> Let me guess. The dog hasn't been on the ecollar before and then you just strapped it on and immediately started working the dog? Sometimes the dog doesn't realize what this weird sensation is so they work through it. If that's the case then not as great of a trainer as you think.
> 
> Unless you're using some crappy petsmart collar I HIGHLY doubt your dog didn't feel it. I agree with bailiff it probably wasn't put on right. Did you see the dogs neck twitch? Try max stimming yourself on the neck. I GUARANTEE your neck will involuntary twitch and there's no way you can control it. So unless your dog is some alien dog his neck will twitch. A level 50 stim on my dogtra already had my dogs neck twitching.
> 
> Either way if your dog can completely blow off a max level stim you would rather correct with a prong? A dog that hard you must be yanking the dog completely sideways for him to feel it. Sounds much more dangerous on the dog physically than an ecollat correction.


Let me guess. You weren't there. You're assuming things. I'm happy for you.


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## martemchik

The point of my posts isn't to challenge the way the ecollar training is done properly. I know how to do it properly, I've done my research. The point is to point out how the majority of people out there (not on this forum) use an ecollar. You're really delusional if you think people use it properly and are slowly stimulating their dogs...I have yet to see a single person at the dog park who uses an ecollar, that can recall their dog and get any kind of response without a "stimulation." And many times, its clear that its much more than just the lowest level because the dog completely shuts down.

That's the upsetting part. The dog reacting negatively and clearly showing stress and anxiety over a given command or a correction.

Like David mentioned...for pet people, I can only see how it would be useful for a recall but somehow I've been able to train a much more effective recall than most of the people I meet that use an ecollar. I also see the stress in their dog, and the obedience they could probably train using it, won't be the kind I'm looking for.

And no one will ever convince me that an ecollar is the right tool to teach a sit or a down. Sorry...easily done with a hot dog.


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## sabledog3

jafo220 said:


> The key word in your whole post is the word "frustrating". Believe me when I tell you, dogs can sense your frustrations and will shut down at times. They can also sense confidence, whether your using an e-collar or positive reinforcement training. Either way, using an e-collar, can honestly say, has never been frustrating. Once I understood the use of an e-collar, there were no confidence issues either. If an e-collar can take those human emotions out of the equation, there is not much for the dog to focus in on but executing the commands to avoid the stims. Which in the end is better for everyone involved. Once the dog understands your emotionally stressed, they get stressed and then they start running over you. Been there seen that and not just from my dog but other dogs I've been through positive reinforcement training with.......twice. Not all dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I just meant frustrating bc it can be so slow with some behaviors when you first get started with it. I was there once,I was that person with the dog with the prong collar on, don't think it happened over night.

I did not mean frustrated with the dog, sorry you took that from my statement.


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## simba405

I don't need to be there to understand that if enough electrical current is applied to a muscle it contracts. So either you used a crappy weak ecollar or it wasn't even put on correctly. If it's a weak collar you're doing nothing more than giving your dog a massage like a physical therapist does to their patients. So did his neck twitch or do you have an alien dog? My guess is the collar probably wasn't even turned on  

Btw you can have physical control with an ecollar. You act like the prong is the only way to give a correction and control the dog at the same time. Ever heard of a flat collar or harness paired with an ecollar?


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## Baillif

Well let me ask you this. What do you think creates a stronger behavior?

Just teaching a dog to sit for a piece of hot dog

Or

Teaching the dog to sit and when the sit is achieved the annoying working level stim goes away and then they get a peice of hot dog at the end too.

Or after you've done all that teaching and you know the dog knows the behavior but for whatever reason decides hey I'm not going to do it you mark with a no and give a punishment level stim.

Still think there's no place for it in the training?


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## sabledog3

Baillif said:


> The dog isn't always trying to be good. My dog knows how to contact heel perfectly with me. He knows how to contact heel perfectly with my buddy who is also a trainer that hardly ever works him. However when he is asked to contact heel by my girlfriend who he knows very well he does so loose and will sometimes just walk off or sniff stuff. He does it because he knows he can get away with it and do whatever he wants. So the assumption dogs are just trying to be good is patently and unequivocally false and working under that assumption is asking for a world of trouble.
> 
> Real dog training is about shaping the decision of the dog. Do I stay with the behavior or do I go off and pee on that tree or chase the jogger? Without training and consequences for failure and success the dog goes with whatever choice it wants, usually the one it thinks is the most fun, but when there are unpleasant consequences the dog would like to avoid for any action the dog might take that we as trainers don't want to see, and a pleasant consequence for success be it toy treat or absence of pressure then the choice is made simple for the dog and it goes with the behavior (most of the time).
> 
> Not to say really good positive only trainers can't get really high reliability with their dogs under certain situations but the vast majority of those people can't, and the ones that do probably at some point end up frustrated and pressuring or punishing their dogs anyway and when they do it is probably out of anger and done incorrectly.


Not sure what that last part was about, but whatever.

Your first paragraph actually proves a point that I tried to make pages ago... don't blame the dog, blame the handler, step back and look at what the human is doing wrong, don't blame the dog for being a dog!


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## Steve Strom

Baillif said:


> Well let me ask you this. What do you think creates a stronger behavior?
> 
> Just teaching a dog to sit for a piece of hot dog
> 
> Or
> 
> Teaching the dog to sit and when the sit is achieved the annoying working level stim goes away and then they get a peice of hot dog at the end too.
> 
> Or after you've done all that teaching and you know the dog knows the behavior but for whatever reason decides hey I'm not going to do it you mark with a no and give a punishment level stim.
> 
> Still think there's no place for it in the training?


 Depends on the dog, how much he values that hot dog, and how you use it. They aren't machines and there are no absolutes in training them.


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## martemchik

I agree with your third point...you teach a dog to sit, and then when you know it knows what the word means, you correct. I don't care how you correct, prong, flat, ecollar. It's all good. But that is what I consider a fair correction...the dog knows whats expected, its clearly blowing you off, you correct to make sure the dog understands it did something wrong.

And simba...read the thread I was referring to. The guy's idea wasn't to have a flat and teach with a prong, it was to let the dog run free and then give it a stimulus to get it back to him. In the mean time, he'd work on a recall with him using the "standard" methods. I also see people all the time at the off-leash dog park, using an ecollar while having their dog on a 6 foot leash and a flat collar.

I'm not trying to argue that there are proper ways of using an ecollar, and even situations where its necessary and also works better than other methods. I'm trying to explain how 95% of people, don't use it properly, don't use it the way you guys are talking about, and just end up shutting their dogs down with it and calling it obedience.


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## Baillif

Ah ok, well then we are on the same page.


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## glowingtoadfly

martemchik said:


> I agree with your third point...you teach a dog to sit, and then when you know it knows what the word means, you correct. I don't care how you correct, prong, flat, ecollar. It's all good. But that is what I consider a fair correction...the dog knows whats expected, its clearly blowing you off, you correct to make sure the dog understands it did something wrong.
> 
> And simba...read the thread I was referring to. The guy's idea wasn't to have a flat and teach with a prong, it was to let the dog run free and then give it a stimulus to get it back to him. In the mean time, he'd work on a recall with him using the "standard" methods. I also see people all the time at the off-leash dog park, using an ecollar while having their dog on a 6 foot leash and a flat collar.
> 
> I'm not trying to argue that there are proper ways of using an ecollar, and even situations where its necessary and also works better than other methods. I'm trying to explain how 95% of people, don't use it properly, don't use it the way you guys are talking about, and just end up shutting their dogs down with it and calling it obedience.


This usage commonly seen is all I was ever against in the threads that spawned this one...


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## NancyJ

glowingtoadfly said:


> This usage commonly seen is all I was ever against in the threads that spawned this one...


And I think that is the majority view represented here. Sure some are against it but you name any training tool or method and someone will shoot it down.


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## jafo220

sabledog3 said:


> I just meant frustrating bc it can be so slow with some behaviors when you first get started with it. I was there once,I was that person with the dog with the prong collar on, don't think it happened over night.
> 
> I did not mean frustrated with the dog, sorry you took that from my statement.


I'm not trying to split hairs here or be argumentative, but at what point and when do you get frustrated? I mean, yeh I understand what your saying in your reply but do you think that frustration creeps in during training sessions when they are slow to get it or just get it when they want to get it? 

There is no reason to apologize. I've been through what your referring to.


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## sabledog3

jafo220 said:


> I'm not trying to split hairs here or be argumentative, but at what point and when do you get frustrated? I mean, yeh I understand what your saying in your reply but do you think that frustration creeps in during training sessions when they are slow to get it or just get it when they want to get it?
> 
> There is no reason to apologize. I've been through what your referring to.


I don't get frustrated anymore. It was just frustrating when I first started changing over so to speak. You have to change your whole way of thinking about your dog. Change is hard for everyone. It's especially hard when you realize that you are the reason your dog is not behaving. Once you realize how to work with your dog, not against them, everything falls into place.

Since I've started doing positive reinforcement training and ditching tools like the prong collar, I've had so much more fun with my dog and understood him so much better.


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## glowingtoadfly

> The problem with those who feel they require certain tools to get the response they want and that it cannot be gotten with less aversive techniques, is they feel threatened by the people who proclaim that positive training techniques are the way to go. Of course the positive people are positive about it, just like the people who use the other tools are positive about their methods being the only thing that will work. The people are reacting to their own impressions of the tools and how they must look, and feel that positive people are passing judgement on them. That's where the anger comes from, from feeling threatened, and inner feeling of guilt, or being they are not good enough at training/leading/managing their dogs. And so they respond with belittling people: Oh, honey don't bite the little boy, here's a cookie, come and get the cookie instead.
> 
> What comes out is not so much that Positive people do not understand the correction collars, but that the people who feel threatened by the positive people and thus are loud and obnoxious about it, really don't understand positive training at all. Click, treat -- that is the same as putting an e-collar onto the max level and firing away, well the level of understanding is.
> 
> Positive training techniques do work, and you can have rock solid performance with positive training. Training dogs to behave using physical corrections work also, else it would not still be used. Those of us that have gone from primarily training with physical corrections and have moved onto primarily training with motivation and praise, do feel that we have progressed, because we have. Our previous methods were not right for us or our dogs, and we have found better methods for us, else we would have abandoned them.
> 
> I think it part of human nature to share what we took some time figuring out for ourselves, and some people can be a bit brazen about it. Maybe not every one out there yanking and cranking or zapping their dog is being abusive. Some are. They may be excellent trainers, using tools that make some things easier, and some things more reliable. For example, how can you ensure that your dog will continue to do his job through painful resistance, without ever having experienced any physical unpleasantness?
> 
> People can also progress from positive techniques to physical corrections, when the positive techniques do not give them the success that they had anticipated. Positive people will generally say that the techniques were not properly and consistently applied -- there is always an out. But someone who gave it a try, and found that he had better success with a prong or e-collar, is going to feel the same way positive people do when they progressed from one style of training to another. They will want to share their experience with people.
> 
> It is all really silly. If you do not feel guilty or inept, then why the anger? Why belittle others? Why not just shake your head and plug onward? Or, educate people, as many people do here, if you are concerned with the AR people taking away some of your tools. Making fun of people, being angry, criticizing does not win people over, and it does not educate. It is totally pointless. It maybe makes us feel a little superior, having gained a telling point in our own eyes, but that is short lived.
> 
> Regardless of the tools you use or don't use, bad training is bad training. Bad training is rampant in those who try to do it positive, and those who try to use tools. And don't even get me going about the _balanced _buzz word.


And this anger Selzer speaks of is what I have run into, time and again on this forum when writing of my sometimes frustrating and imperfect journey of positively training my own difficult dogs. Even to the point of being called abusive for using prozac instead of aversives on a dog no one but Martemchik has met. Thanks for explaining the vehemence of the response I have gotten, Sue.


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## sabledog3

jafo220 said:


> I'm not trying to split hairs here or be argumentative, but at what point and when do you get frustrated? I mean, yeh I understand what your saying in your reply but do you think that frustration creeps in during training sessions when they are slow to get it or just get it when they want to get it?
> 
> There is no reason to apologize. I've been through what your referring to.


I don't get frustrated anymore. It was just frustrating when I first started changing over so to speak. You have to change your whole way of thinking about your dog. Change is hard for everyone. It's especially hard when you realize that you are the reason your dog is not behaving. Once you realize how to work with your dog, not against them, everything falls into place.

Since I've started doing positive reinforcement training and ditching tools like the prong collar, I've had so much more fun with my dog and understood him so much better.

I think you might be trying to imply that with positive reinforcement training, your dog can do what you ask whenever they feel like it. This is notthecase at all.


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## lokimonster

martemchik said:


> And simba...read the thread I was referring to. The guy's idea wasn't to have a flat and teach with a prong, it was to let the dog run free and then give it a stimulus to get it back to him. In the mean time, he'd work on a recall with him using the "standard" methods. I also see people all the time at the off-leash dog park, using an ecollar while having their dog on a 6 foot leash and a flat collar.


I was reading through this thread and noticed my post being referenced… wow, i guess i came across wrong on that post!… Before I posted that, I had started reading on Lou Castle's website, and thats mainly where I got my understanding of e collar training. I thought it went without saying that you would spend all the necessary time to train the dog to understand the collar, and to make sure the dog knew completely what was expected of him and how to avoid getting stimmed… Wow! I would never just slap an e collar on a dog and just zap him and expect him to magically behave lol! THAT is terrible IMO!  Im surprised people were so polite to me if thats what I sounded like! 
I guess I should go reread how I worded that post… 

I was trying to say in the post that I would not want to involve an e collar in _every training session_. I'd want to use mostly positive reinforcement training that doesn't involve the ecollar… _in addition to_ the basic ecollar training sessions of course… 

But I really only wanted to have as many e collar training sessions as it took for my dog to really know how it works… *when he fully understands what im asking and understands how to prevent the stim from happening!* , I would use it solely for recall proofing! Hope this makes sense lol... I mostly wanted to know if people thought he was too young for an e collar. 

I thought it was a given that you would train your dog specifically how to understand the collar from the ground up… Well anyways… I just felt like responding because im not one of those people… I never thought that was the way to use an e collar.  Im new to the forum… but not new to training.


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## jafo220

sabledog3 said:


> I don't get frustrated anymore. It was just frustrating when I first started changing over so to speak. You have to change your whole way of thinking about your dog. Change is hard for everyone. It's especially hard when you realize that you are the reason your dog is not behaving. Once you realize how to work with your dog, not against them, everything falls into place.
> 
> Since I've started doing positive reinforcement training and ditching tools like the prong collar, I've had so much more fun with my dog and understood him so much better.


That's awesome. Like has been said in here a few times. I think there different variables in training. Sometimes it's the handler, sometimes it's the dog and sometimes it may be both. In the end you have to find the best way for the dog and yourself.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## jafo220

martemchik said:


> I agree with your third point...you teach a dog to sit, and then when you know it knows what the word means, you correct. I don't care how you correct, prong, flat, ecollar. It's all good. But that is what I consider a fair correction...the dog knows whats expected, its clearly blowing you off, you correct to make sure the dog understands it did something wrong.
> 
> And simba...read the thread I was referring to. The guy's idea wasn't to have a flat and teach with a prong, it was to let the dog run free and then give it a stimulus to get it back to him. In the mean time, he'd work on a recall with him using the "standard" methods. I also see people all the time at the off-leash dog park, using an ecollar while having their dog on a 6 foot leash and a flat collar.
> 
> I'm not trying to argue that there are proper ways of using an ecollar, and even situations where its necessary and also works better than other methods. I'm trying to explain how 95% of people, don't use it properly, don't use it the way you guys are talking about, and just end up shutting their dogs down with it and calling it obedience.


Ok, you nor I have no idea that 95% of people use the e-collar improperly. If so, what's the source of your information? It's misinformation like this that scare people off of getting help they need. 

Just because the people with a lead on their dog in the dog in the dog park doesn't mean squat. I had mine on a lead first time in cause I wanted proof he wasn't going to take a dog or person out when cut loose. I didn't read where you talked to the person to see why they had the dog on a lead. 

I don't doubt there are e-collars out there being used improperly. I don't think anyone is really arguing that point. But I don't think it's as out of control as your expressing. If so, please show me.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## martemchik

I'll give you a break since its a day late and its tough to read sarcasm. Of course no one is at an off-lead dog park with an ecollar on and a 6 foot lead. The point was that simba said you can do that type of training, which you could, but its not the training that I've seen done.

How do you expect me to show you that ecollars are being used improperly? I've told you how I used to go to dog parks, and when my dog was younger and would blow off a recall, I'd have people coming up to me and telling me, "I used to have that problem, now I have this!" They would take their remote control, press a button, the dog's ears would go straight back, it would come. Awesome obedience... Or the lady who was also proud of her obedient golden retriever who tried to mount a dog and she just pressed a button and dropped it to the ground. Why would that type of information scare people off? The point is...if you're going to use it, find someone qualified to show you how to use it, too many people just go out and buy a $200 ecollar, strap it on, and start working. And sorry...reading all the Lou Castle articles in the world won't help you get the proper timing down if you're a novice dog handler.

IMO, depending on your dog's age, and how much training you've done...proofing in a dog park environment is very unfair. There's really no need for it. A dog park was for fun, it wasn't for hardcore training and obedience. The trial field is for that.

I'm not trying to scare people off of it...but I don't like seeing posts like lokimonster (even though he just clarified). It really sounded like the idea of the ecollar was a failsafe, not a tool in the way its intended to be used. And loki...this isn't anything against you or your idea, but when I read that OP it just said to me...I want my young dog to be able to be off-lead in a questionable area due to his current age and obedience level, but just in case I'll have this device that will punish him and teach him to come to me before doing all the work it will take to "properly" teach a recall.

I can't show it, but I've seen way too many dogs that if that ecollar is off, wouldn't come back to their owner if their life depended on it.


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## Baillif

Martemchik brings up really good points. When I was first starting out I was told things like recall is about the relationship between a dog and handler more than anything else, or recall from distraction (ie not out of obedience) was the ultimate test of a relationship between handler and dog. 

At the time I didn't know what it meant because it was pretty vague and it just sounded like one of those things an "expert" would tell you to make themselves look like dog training Jedi when what you were really looking for was some sort of drill or tool or magical tone of voice or whatever to make it happen, but it's true. You don't need an e collar to get an iron clad recall, but you do need relationship, and you do need to be as believable in your discipline as you are in your affection when it comes to the dog.

The e collar will get you the ability to apply a consequence at a distance but in the end your dog should want to come back to you and want to be with you more than out there in the world doing something else, and when you achieve that, that is when the real magic happens. The tool can become a crutch and stop you from ever getting there.


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## jafo220

martemchik said:


> I'll give you a break since its a day late and its tough to read sarcasm. Of course no one is at an off-lead dog park with an ecollar on and a 6 foot lead. The point was that simba said you can do that type of training, which you could, but its not the training that I've seen done.
> 
> How do you expect me to show you that ecollars are being used improperly? I've told you how I used to go to dog parks, and when my dog was younger and would blow off a recall, I'd have people coming up to me and telling me, "I used to have that problem, now I have this!" They would take their remote control, press a button, the dog's ears would go straight back, it would come. Awesome obedience... Or the lady who was also proud of her obedient golden retriever who tried to mount a dog and she just pressed a button and dropped it to the ground. Why would that type of information scare people off? The point is...if you're going to use it, find someone qualified to show you how to use it, too many people just go out and buy a $200 ecollar, strap it on, and start working. And sorry...reading all the Lou Castle articles in the world won't help you get the proper timing down if you're a novice dog handler.
> 
> IMO, depending on your dog's age, and how much training you've done...proofing in a dog park environment is very unfair. There's really no need for it. A dog park was for fun, it wasn't for hardcore training and obedience. The trial field is for that.
> 
> I'm not trying to scare people off of it...but I don't like seeing posts like lokimonster (even though he just clarified). It really sounded like the idea of the ecollar was a failsafe, not a tool in the way its intended to be used. And loki...this isn't anything against you or your idea, but when I read that OP it just said to me...I want my young dog to be able to be off-lead in a questionable area due to his current age and obedience level, but just in case I'll have this device that will punish him and teach him to come to me before doing all the work it will take to "properly" teach a recall.
> 
> I can't show it, but I've seen way too many dogs that if that ecollar is off, wouldn't come back to their owner if their life depended on it.


No sarcasm here. I posted the question of you throwing the figure of 95% out there on a public forum and nothing to back it up. 




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## martemchik

jafo220 said:


> No sarcasm here. I posted the question of you throwing the figure of 95% out there on a public forum and nothing to back it up.




Lol...you're asking for a legitimate study about how many people "misuse" a certain training tool? I'm also not sure why you've gone on this hardcore offensive, I'm telling you I could care less who uses it...I'm just telling you in my experience its generally used wrong.

The reason its 95% is that out of all the people I have met while I've been training/trialing and just going places with my dog over the last 4 years, only like one or two have actually used an ecollar in the proper way. There have been a few people on this forum that have claimed (and I have no proof that they're doing it) that they do it correctly...but unless I can watch you and your dog work, see what kind of reaction you get from your dog when you do give him a command, I won't pass judgment on if the tool is needed or if it’s being used properly.


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## Baillif

I'd honestly like to see that study but unless someone threw money out there for it the chances are it wouldn't happen.

I've seen enough misuse of clickers and positive reinforcement that I'd believe a number like 95% even though it's clearly made up. Positive reinforcement is the most understood quadrant in learning theory as it pertains to dogs and it's still done badly by the vast majority of people. Huge mistakes like one click or one marker means one treat, or timing issues, or understanding of reinforcement schedules, or presentation of food, or what the **** is the premack principle, or fading lures and physical cues is hugely prevalent among trainers to say nothing of the average pet owner.

So when you bring up lesser known quadrants that aren't talked about as much because of the agendas of certain groups of people or political correctness like negative reinforcement or positive punishment the number of people getting it right is going to drop off even more. And when the discussions about tools that deal chiefly with positive punishment and negative reinforcement are made they almost always evolve around whether the tools should be used in the first place, and almost never revolve around how it should be done correctly according to proven scientific research or common practice of the most masterful practitioners of the trade.


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## jafo220

martemchik said:


> Lol...you're asking for a legitimate study about how many people "misuse" a certain training tool? I'm also not sure why you've gone on this hardcore offensive, I'm telling you I could care less who uses it...I'm just telling you in my experience its generally used wrong.
> 
> The reason its 95% is that out of all the people I have met while I've been training/trialing and just going places with my dog over the last 4 years, only like one or two have actually used an ecollar in the proper way. There have been a few people on this forum that have claimed (and I have no proof that they're doing it) that they do it correctly...but unless I can watch you and your dog work, see what kind of reaction you get from your dog when you do give him a command, I won't pass judgment on if the tool is needed or if it’s being used properly.


Am I coming over as hard core? Wow. I thought I was being somewhat polite. My apologies. My passion over some things may override better judgment. I am not trying to discredit your experiences. If you have had no positive experiences where e-collars are used by others, that's a shame really. I've seen numerous e-collars being used by responsible handlers, two of which were standing next to a trainer while learning. One other in a dog park. It appeared to me none of those dogs seemed stressed in any way. 

As with any tool. If it nets results. There will be those who misuse. It's unfortunate really. I think this fits many aspects of owning dogs.

As far as the 95% thing, don't laugh, you never know. I get you now. I thought maybe you came across something. If not, I misread you. 

I am still a believer in e-collar training. I can see the theory behind positive training. But I also think positive training is a much more complex method. Without alot of experience with a good trainer and dedication from the handler, it still is somewhat questionable, and you could say about other methods too.


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## simba405

martemchik said:


> Lol...you're asking for a legitimate study about how many people "misuse" a certain training tool? I'm also not sure why you've gone on this hardcore offensive, I'm telling you I could care less who uses it...I'm just telling you in my experience its generally used wrong.
> 
> The reason its 95% is that out of all the people I have met while I've been training/trialing and just going places with my dog over the last 4 years, only like one or two have actually used an ecollar in the proper way. There have been a few people on this forum that have claimed (and I have no proof that they're doing it) that they do it correctly...but unless I can watch you and your dog work, see what kind of reaction you get from your dog when you do give him a command, I won't pass judgment on if the tool is needed or if it’s being used properly.


What is the proper way to you? Low stim and teaching the dog how to turn it off? 

An ecollar can be used just like a prong. It can be used to give corrections. I can shut a dog down with overly harsh corrections with a prong too. 

If you use a prong to correct it's used properly but it you use ecollar to correct it's improper?


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## martemchik

I never said that...I don't get where you guys got the idea that I'm against ecollars. I'm not. When used properly, I'm perfectly happy to see people use them. If you teach your dog a command, without pressure, and without stress, and you use an ecollar to proof that command, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not the biggest fan of removing the stimulation as the "reward" because that does border on cruelty...no matter how "small" of a stimulation you're talking about. If you wouldn't do it to teach a human something, I don't feel its fair to do it to a dog.

What I'm against is the "underground fence" idea that an ecollar brings with it. It allows people to get the desired outcome, without actually teaching the dog what's expected. It's suppressing drive and not allowing a dog to be a dog. Sorry...but its much easier to completely destroy a dog's drive with an ecollar or a prong than it is with more positive methods, if you chose to not believe that...not sure what I can tell you.

My biggest pet peeve when it comes to dog training is getting a higher drive breed, and then trying to suppress that drive in order to have an "obedient" dog. A dog that doesn't make any of its own decisions and has absolutely zero freedom, is a dog that won't cause its owners any issues. Unfortunately, the ecollar is becoming the favorite tool for people that want that.


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## Baillif

Negative reinforcement is used to teach humans things all the time. As is positive punishment. In an extreme example, there's even a facility, the judge Rotenburg center that uses electric shock on people to stop self mutilation and a host of other issues.


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## martemchik

Baillif said:


> Negative reinforcement is used to teach humans things all the time. As is positive punishment. In an extreme example, there's even a facility, the judge Rotenburg center that uses electric shock on people to stop self mutilation and a host of other issues.


Lol alright...its not used to teach humans normal day to day skills.

I've never had a teacher cause me pain until I came up with a right answer and then reward me by stopping.


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## Baillif

I'm betting they've put pressure on you to behave though. It might be social pressure but it is still a form of negative reinforcement or punishment depending on what the purpose is. 

You've never been spanked?

Threat of bodily harm prevents you from doing all kinds of things but you have the cognitive faculties to avoid having to experience it yourself. Dogs, not so much.


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## martemchik

But the threat of punishment isn't the same thing as punishing someone until they do the desired task.

Not sure if I can 100% agree on social pressure being negative reinforcement, since it never really goes away and there are other factors involved when speaking of social norms.


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## SuperG

*"I've never had a teacher cause me pain until I came up with a right answer and then reward me by stopping."*




I had an elementary school teacher who would whack me in the head with his hand..which had a big ring on it, every time I would kibitz during chess matches in math class.....

I learned not to kibitz .....at least in his class.And the reward was the absence of a lump on my head.


SuperG


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## Baillif

Negative reinforcement is not about punishing until a task is accomplished it is about nagging and annoying until it is. Punishment is in strictly operant conditioning terms something applied after an undesirable behavior is performed in order to reduce the chances of it occurring again.

Using the annoying beep you hear in your car if you drive without your seat belt on. It is an annoying beep not a ear piercing sonic blast. Huge difference.


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## martemchik

I’m usually not one for making very AR statements…but in this case we’re toeing the line between annoyance and pain when referring to certain stimulants, especially when the thing we’re discussing doing it to something that cannot communicate the level to us. On top of that, we’re equating audible and also psychological annoyances, to an actual physical stimulation.

So, if I’m thinking this through…the dog gets stimulated, and because the remote says 10/100, and the handler maybe tested the stimulation on themselves, they believe the stimulation is just an annoyance and not actually a painful punishment. But what says the dog doesn’t feel differently? If, as humans, we have different pain tolerances, why would we subject an animal to something that might make us uncomfortable and isn’t socially acceptable to do to our species?

And no, I don’t believe that not seeing a physical reaction in the dog, or outward discomfort is a sign that the stim level is an annoyance and hasn’t crossed that line to pain. As in above, everyone has a different tolerance for pain and the same stimulation (especially if its physical) some will call annoyance and others pain.

Cool discussion BTW.


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## Nigel

Curious what people's thoughts are on this video. I can't make out everything he's saying because sound quality and being hearing impaired.






We brought in a trainer (e collar) to help curb a few problems with our male and it worked well, Ranger does great with it. I wanted to use an e collar with our female for correction of known commands, but I'm still on the fence about it. Her OB is good in rally, agility class type setting, but starts to flake out in the neighborhood. I have used the collar on myself (Einstein mini) and I can't feel the lower settings, even on my neck, up to maybe 20, then barely up to 30, but the point Martemchik brings up is one that crossed my mind too.


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## Baillif

I can't pretend to know what the dog is feeling but I can watch the dog during stim and have a very good idea. My working level is around the same as that of most dogs so at least in theory we are feeling it at roughly the same time. I'm just looking for a reaction like a blink. If I see the dog itch it's probably too high, but it's fair to say the dog isn't in pain.

If you cause pain you run out of dog. While teaching you (or maybe just me) want the dog in the game and having fun. Stress and pain will eventually cause the dog to be useless or frozen or shut down. Less so if they are fully understanding how to escape unpleasantries. So that's more or less how I know the dog isn't in real pain because if they were the session would be over pretty quick and learning wouldn't take place as efficiently.

Dogs aren't people. We can't communicate things with them as effectively. I can't sit my dog down and say man buddy you really shouldn't go chase that squirrel in the road you could get hurt. So what might not be socially acceptable between people shouldn't be determining what is socially acceptable between people and animals. And what is socially acceptable isn't always the best thing for people or animals.

Would you slap a little girl if she pinched you? | Gary Wilkes' Real Clicker Training

Worth checking out. Gary goes over a lot of the ethics of punishment more so than anything else. For those of you who don't know he was married to Karen Pryor, and one of the pioneers of clicker training for dogs.


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## simba405

martemchik said:


> I’m usually not one for making very AR statements…but in this case we’re toeing the line between annoyance and pain when referring to certain stimulants, especially when the thing we’re discussing doing it to something that cannot communicate the level to us. On top of that, we’re equating audible and also psychological annoyances, to an actual physical stimulation.
> 
> So, if I’m thinking this through…the dog gets stimulated, and because the remote says 10/100, and the handler maybe tested the stimulation on themselves, they believe the stimulation is just an annoyance and not actually a painful punishment. But what says the dog doesn’t feel differently? If, as humans, we have different pain tolerances, why would we subject an animal to something that might make us uncomfortable and isn’t socially acceptable to do to our species?
> 
> And no, I don’t believe that not seeing a physical reaction in the dog, or outward discomfort is a sign that the stim level is an annoyance and hasn’t crossed that line to pain. As in above, everyone has a different tolerance for pain and the same stimulation (especially if its physical) some will call annoyance and others pain.
> 
> Cool discussion BTW.


So why do you use the prong? You don't know if you're hurting the dog. It's all about not hurting the dog right? Same exact concept yet you have this pet peeve with ecollars but not with prongs. Why? 

My opinion is who gives a crap if the dog is feeling pain. Listen and behave and you won't get corrected. I bet you couldn't tell my dog was trained with ecollar. No calming signals. No ears back. Recalls with too much speed for his own good. Training with aversives is all about setting boundaries. Once the dog knows it's boundaries it can happily live within those boundaries. 

It's more cruel for a dog to not know what is OK and what isn't. That's a dog that is careful with everything it does because it isn't sure what will get it a correction.


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## martemchik

simba405 said:


> So why do you use the prong? You don't know if you're hurting the dog. It's all about not hurting the dog right? Same exact concept yet you have this pet peeve with ecollars but not with prongs. Why?
> 
> My opinion is who gives a crap if the dog is feeling pain. Listen and behave and you won't get corrected. I bet you couldn't tell my dog was trained with ecollar. No calming signals. No ears back. Recalls with too much speed for his own good. Training with aversives is all about setting boundaries. Once the dog knows it's boundaries it can happily live within those boundaries.
> 
> It's more cruel for a dog to not know what is OK and what isn't. That's a dog that is careful with everything it does because it isn't sure what will get it a correction.


I think you need an ecollar to teach you comprehension, or at least the ability to not take things out of context. You also seem to have missed the point when I talk about how when used properly I have ZERO problem with an ecollar...but your average joe, doesn't use the ecollar properly, doesn't seek out a trained professional, and just sees results because yes...a dog will quickly learn what's expected of it if the reward is "no pain."

That post was about negative reinforcement...the idea of "stimulating" a dog until he/she does something and then rewarding by taking away the "stimulation."


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## martemchik

And baliff...you are correct that in causing pain you will eventually run out of dog, which is my point...what I see a lot of, with any type of compulsion training is that the people want to run out of dog and just make a thing that doesn't think or do anything on instinct.


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## Baillif

A lot of that comes from a lack of knowledge. If you punish a behavior like chewing up wooden furniture for example, you don't just leave it there or at least you shouldn't. You should recognize that as something the dog found value in and find a way to fulfill that desire through a productive means like a bully stick or deer antler. That way the dog has somewhere to perform that activity.

I don't punish to quash instinct. I just punish it where I don't want to see it and provide an outlet for it somewhere else.


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## simba405

You nitpick about people using the ecollar incorrectly yet you could just replace the word ecollar in all your posts and replace it with prong and it's the same thing. 

I'm assuming the right way to use a prong is to teach leash pressure and train the dog how to turn it off? I'm 110% positive you use it as a correction tool. I'm also sure 95% of people out there "use it incorrectly". I'm just trying to understand what's the big difference between them? 

If you look down on people at the dog bark using an ecollar shouldn't you also do the same for people using prongs? Or is that not the case since you yourself use a prong? 

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