# Milk thistle? Or, Dena does raw...



## Cassidy's Mom

Friday I noticed that Dena didn't seem 'right', and then that evening she ate half her dinner and walked away. VERY not like her. She refused breakfast on Saturday and ate maybe 1/4 cup for dinner, and one piece of chicken jerky during the day. Sunday she had very strange poop (and this is from the queen of perfect poop), so I was starting to get concerned. Saved the poop, just in case. Sunday I got about a cup of food into her in the morning and almost a cup in the evening, but her appetite was still off, and she was obviously not feeling well. 

So I took her into the vet yesterday, and he said it looked like she got ahold of a small mammal, possibly a squirrel. HUH?!?!? But he pointed out that what I couldn't identify was little bits of bone, and there were clearly clumps of hair too. No idea how this could have happened - for one thing it would have had to go into the dog run, which would be weird in any case, but also if there were small furry critters around it seems like Keefer, who lives to eat and has wicked prey drive (he loves to bark at the squirrels in the back yard), would have gotten it. Although I guess if she got to it first and warned him off he'd defer to her. But I still don't know where she'd have had the opportunity since they're only in the main part of the yard where the squirrels are when we're outside, and then they're just a few feet away, maybe out of sight for a couple of minutes while Tom hoses down the pee in the side yard. 

But in any case, the vet ran the full gamut of tests - urinalysis, giardia, and a full blood workup. She's on flagyl, and I bought some canned food to mix into her kibble. We've been able to get her to eat about 2/3 of the usual amount of kibble by mixing in a bunch of Wellness canned. Yesterday afternoon after she came home from the vet she had another weird poop with more of the bone and hair, but this morning, although it was very loose, it seemed like she'd gotten all of whatever it was out of her. 

But the bad news - I called for the blood test results this afternoon, and the vet said that it showed that whatever she ate has made her sick, hopefully only temporarily.







Her gall bladder and liver values are elevated, not seriously, but moderately. I have a copy of the test but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. He wants to recheck her blood work in two weeks, and in the meantime make sure she keeps eating and drinking plenty of water. Fortunately, no vomiting, and she does appear hungry, she'll readily eat a biscuit and the canned food, but if I hold out a piece of kibble, she'll turn her head away. And she's still lethargic.

I remembered reading about Milk Thistle, so I went by the health food store on my way home and bought some. It's 175 mgs Milk Thistle Seed Extract, 80% standardized Silymarin. I _think_ I need to give her one capsule twice a day - can someone confirm that for a 73 pound dog? And please think good thoughts for my baby girl!


----------



## Fodder

i can't confirm a thing about the milk thistle - but i wanted to send all sorts of good thoughts, prayers and wishes her way!!!

poor baby girl!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thanks Fodder. I just couldn't believe it when the vet told me. Keefer, I'd believe, not Dena. Although we'd still have the issue of opportunity.


----------



## tracyc

Poor Dena! Hopefully whatever the critter was, it'll all come out okay and she'll be back to her old self soon. 

Sending good thoughts from here...


----------



## Annikas Mom

No help here with Milk Thistle but had to send my healing good thoughts to Miss Dena and a big hug to you and Tom, I know all too well how scary it is when are kids are sick and not able to tell us what the heck is going on!!


----------



## 3K9Mom

Urff! Dena, what ARE you thinking? 

You need Ruth. She knows dosages. I'm almost positive that she's giving milk thistle to Chama these days. I use Animals' Apawthecary Detox Blend when my kids get into weird things (The beagle girls live to eat weird stuff). So I can't help you there, except that if one of the alt med folks don't come aboard soon, I've found Animals' Apawthecary tinctures at most of my small better pet stores. 

Hope D. feels better.


----------



## onyx'girl

Chipmunk?? Healing thoughts for Dena.
http://www.google.com/search?q=milk+this...FB_enUS213US221


----------



## BowWowMeow

Sorry--I was walking and playing soccer with Rafi. 

Ok, so what I'm guessing is that she has pancreatitis from eating this furry thing? Is that what they said? I'm not sure what else would cause her liver enzymes to go up. 

I do not give people milk thistle but I found this chart for you: 

Dog's size
Dose as % of adult human dose
5 lbs 10%
5-10 lbs 15%
11-20 lbs 20%
21-40 lbs 30%
41-70 lbs 50%
71-100 lbs 75%
100 lbs 100%

I have Chama on this stuff: http://www.homevet.com/osc/product_info.php?products_id=74&osCsid=d2f351ba4277bb9efcdbbba38c2abfef

It would be beneficial for Dena because of the B-vitamins as well. 

If I were you I would take her off of commercial dog food and put her on a homemade diet with an overcooked grain, pureed sweet potatos, canned pumpkin and chicken breast. I believe you want a low fat, high fiber diet if its pancreatitis.


----------



## Barb E

Poor Dena


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

He didn't specifically mention pancreatitis, and I didn't think to ask. I saw the same chart, with just percentages of human dosages - that's how I came up with one capsule twice a day. It's actually a little more than the recommended dosage, but I think that's okay? What you're giving Chama would be even higher since she'd be getting 2 or 3 capsules twice a day based on her weight. I'll order some of that, hopefully they can rush it out for me. How much do you give Chama, and what does she weigh? 

Right now Dena is eating 1/2 can of Wellness grain free, and about a cup of Evo Red Meat twice a day. I'll have to look into what the fat and fiber ratios are, I have no idea off the top of my head. 

Thanks Ruth!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Oh, and thanks everyone else too, Dena & I appreciate it!!!


----------



## WiscTiger

Well I am pretty sure I am one of the few on the board with a dog that I know has Pancreatitis. Absolutely low fat I see more problems with fat content than I do fiber content. But I have fed some what the same as Ruth has posted only no pumpkin, my dogs don't like the stuff. I have used Oat Bran as a fiber source a tablespoon of Oat Bran goes a long way for fiber content.

Forgot to send hugs to Dena and well wishes to all of you.

Also When dogs have a bout or flare of Pancreatitis it is pretty painful for them

Val


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I just did a quick read on pancreatitis, and I'm thinking not. It says to rest the pancreatic and gastrointestinal system, meaning no food for water by mouth for 1-5 days. He specifically said to keep her eating and drinking.


----------



## BowWowMeow

It would be good if it's not pancreatitis. But you want to avoid high fat foods with gall bladder problems too and I'm pretty sure that Wellness has a higher fat content. Fresh, homemade food is easier to digest as well and will be more appetizing. 

Chama gets 2 of those pills a day and she weighs 65 pounds. I am almost out and am going to switch to something else from Only Natural Pet with dandelion too. 

The dandelion/milk thistle extract by Animals Apawthecary would also be a good choice. http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Animals-Apawthecary-Dandelion--Milk-Thistle/148020.aspx

And this product gets excellent reviews: http://www.onlynaturalpet.com/products/Super-Milk-Thistle-X/106025.aspx

ETA: I agree, I reread your OP and it doesn't sound like pancreatitis.


----------



## WiscTiger

I rest the system but I don't go 5 days without food. There are different degree's of the flare up or bout of Pancreatitis. I do the home cooked with any of my dogs that are under the weather, easier on their system than kibble. First day no food, then depending how the Lakota feels depends how much I feed him. He is pretty good about not eating much until he gets back to normal. 

Val


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Okay, the Wellness is the grain free 95%. I bought Beef and Salmon, looks like all the flavors are 6% fat, 1% fiber. Eek - the Evo is 22.22% fat and 1.82% fiber.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Do you feel comfortable making food? Do you want me to send an exact recipe? It's really very easy. 

And that EVO is way too high fat! I would be sticking with the 10% and under range.


----------



## mspiker03

Hope Dena feels better soon!


----------



## valb

Oh poor Dena and Dena's family!! But I'm sure she's going to get
better!

Many hugs to you all and do keep us posted!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowDo you feel comfortable making food?


Not so much. At least not forever, for a short time maybe, go ahead and send it to me. I don't have potatoes or sweet potatoes, but I have rice, and I'm cooking some up now to see if she'll eat it. I'm almost out, so I'll have to buy some more. And I may have a couple of chicken breasts in the freezer, but I'm not sure, so I'll go to the store on my way home from work tomorrow. I don't have a problem with supplementing the canned with some other stuff, (at $2.00 a can that would be prohibitively expensive by itself) but I'm not ready to commit to homecooking for the dogs. Plus it's going to have to be really tasty or she'll turn her nose up at it anyway since her appetite is off. I added some turkey broth to the rice - wish me luck!


----------



## BowWowMeow

I know all of the tricks, don't worry! My biggest trick is using a food processor so that everything is a nice yummy mushy consistency. That way the chicken flavors the rice, etc. 

You need to double cook the rice (twice as much water, cook for twice as long). I also sometimes use oats. They cook much faster and are good for upset tummies. They generally like the taste of sweet potatoes. Adding broth to the whole mix also is a good plan, to make it more tasty. 

My general rule is 1 to 1, so 1 cup grain, 1 cup meat, 1 cup sweet potato.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Oh dear just saw this!!!

Hoping miss Dena is okay.........


----------



## moei

Naughty Dena, munching on chipmunks..









Feel well soon, baby girl. Will keep you in my prayers.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

So far the rice is a hit. I gave her a little off a fork and she ate it, so I added some to the bit of dinner that she didn't finish. She ate a couple more bites, but not all of it, so I stuck the rest in the fridge. 

I did 1 cup of rice to 2 cups of water, and it's pretty mushy, although I didn't cook it twice as long as usual. I have oats on the shelf, so I can try those too.


----------



## mspiker03

I know with my picky eater (Leyna...who else?), I have to use ground (cooked) meat with the rice and mix them all together so she can't pick out the pieces of chicken and leave the rice.

What about adding a bit of broth to the rice?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Melissa, I did add some turkey broth to the first batch of rice, and she was definitely interested in it - yay! She's been good about eating the canned food, but will eat around the kibble to an extent, so for breakfast tomorrow I'll add more rice and less kibble. Her weight is fine, but it won't hurt her to lose a pound or two so I'm less concerned about how many calories she gets for the next few days than just getting regular meals into her. 

She's still kinda mopey, but has been vigorously chewing a nylabone for the last couple of evenings, and will chase the cats if they move around the house. So she it's not like she's not interested in ANYTHING, just not quite herself.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Glad to hear that she's eating. The milk thistle should help her liver values get back down to normal and once that's happened I am betting she will feel A LOT better.


----------



## Qyn

I'm not trying to second guess or add any additional worry to the mix but, is it possible that the animal she consumed may have ingested say rat poison or some kind of pesticide?? For rat poison vitamin K is a treatment. Anyway, I just wanted to wish Dena the best but I tried to think of something that might be possible and had not yet been tested but can be treated.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That's a scary, but good question. 

Poor Dena-I can't imagine-there is no way someone could have tossed her a dead rat or anything? (sorry to spill my neuroses here)

With the milk thistle be very careful not to get the kind that is loaded with grain alcohol.







Check the ingredients. 

I used the human liquid alcohol free version-but only because Kramer refused the Denamarin that Nutramax makes after a while (not an easy dog to pill). I like that company because they research very well how well absorbed their products are by pets. And that means that they actually are getting what you give them! 

http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/animal/liver/liver.asp has the brochures. I always bought it from petstruly I think. 
The Denamarin adds SAM-e so that might not be so much what you want. http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/products/animal/denamarin/index.asp

What things were elevated and how high/normal range or don't you want to get into that!


----------



## GSDLoverII

"I'm not trying to second guess or add any additional worry to the mix but, "


Have they checked her for Lepto?
Kaiser is a Lepto survivor from years back. He got into a decaying possum that probably died from Lepto.
With wild animals and rodents, you never know.
There are so many different strains of Lepto that even if they are vaccinated, they could still get a different strain.
Kaiser was SOOOOOO thirsty and that's what raised the red flag.

Get better soon Dena.


----------



## Karin

I don't have anything to add except I'm very sorry to hear that Dena isn't feeling well and I hope she gets better soon!


----------



## valleydog

Here's to Dena's continued improvement.

We went through a three day health emergency about a year ago with all sorts of scary symptoms, and ultimately only learned "must have been something she ate."


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

Do you or anyone around you use poison bait for rodents? It could be that she got hold of a dead or dying animal that had been poisoned.


----------



## kelso

Dena!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Quote:Glad to hear that she's eating. The milk thistle should help her liver values get back down to normal and once that's happened I am betting she will feel A LOT better.


Ruth, how long can I expect that to take? This morning she ate a tablespoon or two of canned food with the milk thistle mixed in, but was not interested in eating after that. I hand fed her a few bites of rice, maybe a 1/4 cup, and a little bit more canned food, but that's all I could get her to eat. 

Jean, I'd definitely appreciate some help making sense of the blood work. I know nothing about liver stuff. Here's everything that was out of normal ranges:

Alk. phosphatase: 220 normal: 10-150 H
ALT (SGPT): 719 normal: 5-107 H
AST (SGOT): 246 normal: 5-55 H
CK: 234 normal: 10-200 H
Albumin: 2.0 normal: 2.5-4.0 L
Direct Bilirubin: 0.4 normal: 0.0-0.2 H
TCO2 (Bicarbonate): 16 normal: 17-24 L
Lymphocytes: 8 normal 12-30% L
Monocytes: 19 normal: 3-10% H
Eosinophil: 1 normal: 2-10% L
Absolute Lymphocyte: 592 normal: 1000-4800 L
Absolute Monocyte: 1406 normal: 150-1350 H
Absolute Eosinophil: 74 normal: 100-1250 L


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Qyn, and Lauri, that definitely occurred to me, but we don't use anything like that. The only bait of any kind we have is Sluggo snail bait that's labeled as safe for pets and wildlife. And that's in the main part of the yard that the dogs are never in unless we're out there with them. 

I don't know about my neighbors, but on one side there's a dog, so I'm sure she doesn't use any poison, and on the other side, a new family just bought the house and they have a toddler, so I doubt they'd have poison laying around either. On the back fence - maybe. But there's at least a 6 ft tall wood fence around our yard, and the dog run is separately gated on either end around 8-10 feet within that. Anything tossed from the back fence would have to be thrown quite a ways to get to where the dogs could get at it. The common fence on the side of the dog run is the neighbor with the little girl.

GSD Lover, I don't know how much of a problem Lepto is around here, but I'm pretty sure they've been vaccinated against it.


----------



## BowWowMeow

It will take a couple of weeks to get the milk thistle working. I would recommend making up a batch of homemade food with everything all smushy and mixed together. One way to get it into her may be to buy some good whole grain bread and make her a sandwich. That works every time around here! 

There is an appetite stimulant that is full of B vitamins and amino acids that i use when Cleo goes off her feed (she has gall bladder issues) but I would want to consult with a homeopath before using it for Dena. I can't remember if your vet does holistic stuff too? 

And Lepto comes in way too many strains to have a fully effective vaccine. It is worth testing for.


----------



## BowWowMeow

i think this is what's bothering Dena!









Sorry, this is nervous silliness carried over from Nina's thread.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Ruth, I have seen mice living in our rock wall in the backyard. That's what we were thinking when the vet said a "small mammal", but he seemed to think more squirrel sized, and we certainly have those too, what with the bird seed strewn all over the place. 

My vet is VERY traditional. He's a Cornell graduate, and has been practicing for over 35 years, so he's very experienced and I trust him implicitly, but he's definitely not a holistic vet. 

But one of the new vets at his office apparently does acupuncture, so I guess he's more holistic. He's always talking about nutrition and recommending that people supplement their dog's diet with fish oil.


----------



## Lauri & The Gang

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomAnything tossed from the back fence would have to be thrown quite a ways to get to where the dogs could get at it.


If anyone nearby used a slow poison - like warfrain, a blood thinner and rat poison.



> Quote:To this day, coumarins are used as rodenticides for controlling rats and mice in residential, industrial, and agricultural areas. Warfarin is both odorless and tasteless, and is effective when mixed with food bait, because the rodents will return to the bait and continue to feed over a period of days until a lethal dose is accumulated (considered to be 1 mg/kg/day over about six days).
> 
> ...
> 
> The use of warfarin as a rat poison is now declining because many rat populations have developed resistance to it, and poisons of considerably greater potency are now available. Other coumarins used as rodenticides include coumatetralyl and brodifacoum, which is sometimes referred to as "super-warfarin", because it is more potent, longer-acting, and effective even in rat and mouse populations that are resistant to warfarin. Unlike warfarin, which is readily excreted, newer anticoagulant poisons also accumulate in the liver and kidneys after ingestion.


So if a rat of mouse ingested the poison and then wandered into your yard and died and the dog ate it ...


----------



## kootenaydogs

I'm sorry to hear that Dena's not feeling well. The one "good" thing about the liver is that it has a rather amazing ability to regenerate and recover from damage.

You might find the following link of interest:

http://www.monicasegal.com/health/liver.php

It gives some information on diet and how it can help with liver problems.

Hope she feels better soon and stays away from the critters!

By the way, if you can get your hands on a copy of "The Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog" by Wendy Volhard and Kerry Brown, there's a section explaining bloodwork results and the significance of high or low values.


----------



## BowWowMeow

All of the vets around here are Cornell graduates.







Mine graduated from Cornell probably about the same time as yours but he is very open minded and has done some courses on herbs and homeopathy. He has told me some very funny stories about other vets' reactions to speakers he brought in for Continuing Ed years ago (like Jean Dodds). 

Anyway, how did it go with eating tonight?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowAnyway, how did it go with eating tonight?


Still cooking the sweet potatoes (in the water from the chicken). She was VERY interested while I was chopping up the chicken so I gave her a little piece and she gobbled it right up. I took her into the garage and got a chunk of rice out of the fridge out there, and she ate that too. So as long as she likes the sweet potatoes I'll mix it all together and I'm sure she'll suck it right up. She seems hungry! And maybe just a tiny bit perkier, but maybe that's because she's hungry and I've got food, lol! She's been getting up and following me around the house, which she doesn't usually do. Keefer is always totally up my butt, but Dena will usually hang out and wait until I get back rather than shadowing me. She hasn't pooped since yesterday morning, so I don't know if she's got all the unidentified critter out of her yet or not. 

I took Cassidy to a holistic vet in Oakland, and the practice is still there, but the vet I went to left.







I REALLY liked her! But I'm sure the other vets there are good too, so there's that option if necessary. Dr. Schuchman is more open minded than he used to be, he represents our region with the California Veterinary Medical Association and works with the board of admissions at UC Davis veterinary school so he goes to conferences and stuff. I remember when he suggested trying acupuncture for Cassidy I about fell out of my chair! He's more of a prednisone kind of guy than herbs and homeopathy, lol!


----------



## CookieTN

Best of luck.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Big hit, I mean MAJOR loving the food!







I gave her a couple forkfuls of the mashed sweet potato first, which she ate politely as befitting the princess that she is, and then tried the rice again, to make sure that she'd eat each ingredient separately before mixing them together. Just in case she decided that something she wasn't crazy about was tainting something she liked and then refuse to eat the whole darned thing. Not that she'd ever be so difficult. Of course not.







I mixed it all together with a wooden spoon, and then held out the spoon for to her to lick. She chomped on it and refused to give it back, lol!







That is SO not like her!!!! 

I wasn't sure how much to give her, so I plopped a couple big dollops in the bowl, I'm guessing it was about a cup and a half. She scarfed it all down, so I gave her a little more and tossed two small handfuls of kibble in. I figured even though Evo is high in fat there's almost none in the rest of the meal so it would be okay. She ate most of it, but left a little bit of the kibble, so to Keefer's delight I let him lick the bowl. He was having a hissy fit that she was getting special food and he wasn't, so he was very happy to get her dregs. 

Then she went outside and dropped a big ol' poop, her first since yesterday morning. It was loose as expected, and there was still some bone in there. Hopefully we're getting close to having it all out of her.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Very happy to hear that she liked her food! I would hold off on the kibble until she is feeling better though. Best to let her system clear. You can add digestive enzymes and probiotics too, if you have those. 

I usually feed 3 cups of that mush at a time but better to feed her smaller portions and more meals until she's feeling better.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> Then she went outside and dropped a big ol' poop, her first since yesterday morning.


So like a princess!!!
















Glad she is coming round, I was getting worried.


----------



## marksmom3

Good news--it sounds like she's starting to feel better!!


----------



## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomBig hit, I mean MAJOR loving the food!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I gave her a couple forkfuls of the mashed sweet potato first, which she ate politely as befitting the princess that she is, and then tried the rice again, to make sure that she'd eat each ingredient separately before mixing them together. Just in case she decided that something she wasn't crazy about was tainting something she liked and then refuse to eat the whole darned thing. Not that she'd ever be so difficult. Of course not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mixed it all together with a wooden spoon, and then held out the spoon for to her to lick. She chomped on it and refused to give it back, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is SO not like her!!!!
> 
> I wasn't sure how much to give her, so I plopped a couple big dollops in the bowl, I'm guessing it was about a cup and a half. She scarfed it all down, so I gave her a little more and tossed two small handfuls of kibble in. I figured even though Evo is high in fat there's almost none in the rest of the meal so it would be okay. She ate most of it, but left a little bit of the kibble, so to Keefer's delight I let him lick the bowl. He was having a hissy fit that she was getting special food and he wasn't, so he was very happy to get her dregs.
> 
> Then she went outside and dropped a big ol' poop, her first since yesterday morning. It was loose as expected, and there was still some bone in there. Hopefully we're getting close to having it all out of her.












I wouldn't worry about making sure her nutrition is 100% balanced for the short time she'll be off her kibble. Better to make sure she's getting some food in that belly that isn't making things worse


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: KathyWGlad she is coming round, I was getting worried.


No kiddin', me too!!! I'm feeling much better about how she's doing now, it was nice to see her actually interested and enthusiastic about food again. Normally she has a great appetite - not a food hound like Keefer (he's, like, OBSESSED with food!), but not usually a picky eater either.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Ruth, I have Canine Complete but I totally forgot to put some in her meal tonight! I did give her a vitamin E capsule. She had some fish oil in her breakfast, but she ate so little of that. 

Barb, I totally agree, I'm not too concerned with balanced meals, just getting some food into her is the big thing, and that she actually LIKES it and WANTS to eat, yippee!!


----------



## WiscTiger

Yea happy dance. The first time you do some home cooking for the dogs is always the scariest, after that you become an old Pro. Sometimes it is trial and error with what ingredients dogs like, I have two that don't like rice, but give them potato and YUMM it is all gone. I am going to have to make notes on who like or dislikes what. 

Raya is getting much better but for a long time she was a picky eater, I tried a little canned on her kibble, I tried different kibbles she would eat for a period of time and just stop. So I made what I call Raya Stew; 1 lb of ground beef (very lean), 1 lb of carrots ground up, 1 lb potato ground up, some times some Granny Smith apples, she really likes fruit. So anyway I cook this all up, get out my canning jars, fill with hot stuff and seal. Most of the jars seal, but I put them all in the Frig. When she gets fussy I use this instead of canned and she has never gotten tired of it. The plus is it is so much cheaper to make than buying canned food.

I am glad your little princess found something to her licking. I agree with Ruth, hold the kibble, let her system get healed up. I full week or two of home cooking isn't going to hurt her. Spoil her maybe....

Val


----------



## Kayla's Dad

What an ordeal to go through. Sure glad Dena's coming around and feeling better. Here's to everything continuing going in the right direction and Dena's back to her old self quickly.


----------



## Qyn

This is such good news to read. I read Nina's thread then Dena's one so I feel I've caught up with all the important stuff for the time being. 

Hugs to you, Dena and Keefer.






























I'll leave you to hug your DH.


----------



## Brightelf

YESS!! Dena is eating better!







Sending good vibes to Dena!







I know how hard it is trying to get their tummies settled again, their systems running smoothly. Glad she likes her food and salmon oil.







Grimmi sends wags and licks, too.







Wishing Dena to feel 110% well again very, very soon!!


----------



## GSDLoverII

Very happy she is coming around.


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom.....But the bad news - I called for the blood test results this afternoon, and the vet said that it showed that whatever she ate has made her sick, hopefully only temporarily.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her gall bladder and liver values are elevated, not seriously, but moderately. I have a copy of the test but I'm not sure what I'm looking at. ....
> 
> I remembered reading about Milk Thistle, so I went by the health food store on my way home and bought some. It's 175 mgs Milk Thistle Seed Extract, 80% standardized Silymarin. I _think_ I need to give her one capsule twice a day - can someone confirm that for a 73 pound dog? And please think good thoughts for my baby girl!


I would give a GSD in trouble a human dose. The dose should be on the bottle -- depends on the mg per capsule. If it's too much, you will probably start seeing looser stools. I would follow up with Country Life/Biochem Liver Support Formula -- works great on the tick list, and there is ample evidence via blood tests with that product. I get it at http://www.vitacost.com

I don't see any kidney or pancreas values on those lab results. I would be giving some spirulina for the kidneys. 

And as a follow-up, a full chem panel and blood counts for the labwork. 

Alk. phosphatase: 220 normal: 10-150 H
ALT (SGPT): 719 normal: 5-107 H
AST (SGOT): 246 normal: 5-55 H
<span style="color: #3366FF">Yep, all the liver enzymes are up -- fortunately the liver can repair</span>

CK: 234  normal: 10-200 H
<span style="color: #3366FF">denotes muscle wasting of some sort (including heart) though this can increase with stress, or after exercise. It's not way out of range, could just be a blip with no concern attached.</span>

Albumin: 2.0 normal: 2.5-4.0 L
Direct Bilirubin: 0.4 normal: 0.0-0.2 H
TCO2 (Bicarbonate): 16 normal: 17-24 L
<span style="color: #3366FF"> Don't know much about what these say.</span>

Lymphocytes: 8 normal 12-30% L
Monocytes: 19 normal: 3-10% H
Eosinophil: 1 normal: 2-10% L
Absolute Lymphocyte: 592 normal: 1000-4800 L
Absolute Monocyte: 1406 normal: 150-1350 H
Absolute Eosinophil: 74 normal: 100-1250 L
<span style="color: #3366FF"> Eosinophils often denote allergies or parasites. Monocytes and Lympohcytes are types of white cells. The immune system is focusing on creating monocytes, caused mostly by inflammation or infection, hopefully inflammation in this case</span>


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Lisa, I only posted the things that were outside normal ranges. The BUN and creatinine numbers were fine. I don't have the test results with me, but I can post them later if you'd like to know what they are. What would the pancreas value be called?

Unfortunately, she turned her nose up at the food she loved last night.







Maybe she just prefers it warm, I'll try it again tonight. Tom got some canned food into her, but he only gave her half a can. He said she would have eaten more, but for some reason he didn't give her more.









Her stool this morning was closer to normal, not as firm as usual, but very formed.


----------



## 3K9Mom

Oh yes, Deb, warm vs. cold can make ALL the difference. Once they have warm, they never go back. Well, not until they're starving.







You haven't met Queen Zamboni, the Spoiled, yet, though. 

Poor Tom. He tries so hard.









Glad that Dena appears to be doing well. We were packing up our things for a trip south. I don't know what we would have done there, except create a ruckus. But we would have been there, helping you whip sweet potatoes (and it would have been all THREE of the kids this time!) 

Keefer, Camper and Baby Meri chasing each other around the house. Ay, ay, ay!









Dena would have been on her feet, throwing us out -- feeling MUCH better.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Poor Tom. He tries so hard.


Men are so literal!!!


----------



## WiscTiger

I don't think cold food has the aroma that warm food has. Just remember not to heat it up too much.

Val


----------



## Kayla's Dad

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Poor Tom. He tries so hard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Men are so literal!!!
Click to expand...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

No offense to the wonderful men on the board who are NOT overly literal, lol! 

K, here's the kidney stuff:

BUN: 13 
normal: 7-27

Creatinine: .09 
normal: .04-1.8 

No problems there, she's totally within normal range. Anyone know what I'm looking for for pancreas values?

I came home early today and warmed up the rest of the can. I got her to reluctantly eat about half of it by parking the bowl right under her nose, sitting on the floor with her, and forking chunks up to her mouth. Strangely, she will eat OMH dog biscuits, so I gave her 6 of those too.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

The OMH biscuits rock! Mine love them and they are not that bad for them either.


----------



## Barb E

Did they look for all the wormy type parasites??


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Barb, they did a giardia test, (the regular kind, but I didn't even know they were planning on doing one), and the blood test and urinalysis. She is on flagyl, so if she's got giardia that should take care of it, not sure about any other wormies.


----------



## gmcenroe

I just found this thread about Dena. Sorry to read that she isn't feeling well, but glad to see that she seems to be getting better and eating. Juli was sick last week with pretty bad diarrhea. I had to take her out in the middle of the night twice which has never happened before. She also refused to eat the following morning but was back to normal after 24 hours. I hope Dena gets rid of whatever is bothering her. 

Glenn


----------



## Barb E

It seems that I was told many moons ago with one of my cats that I needed to watch her for worms because she was a HUGE hunter and along with her Friskies (Didn't know any better back in 1970's) she ate pretty much anything that moved that she could catch.
Birds, Mice, Moles, Voles...well you get the idea.

Don't know if that was something that was thought 30 years ago and not true or not....you might ask


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

As far as I know, this is the first time she's caught anything - she's not really a hunter. Her prey drive seems to be limited to chasing tennis balls and her kitties, (which she doesn't hurt, she just likes to see them run







). 

Keefer, yes. He loves to bark at the squirrels in the yard and neighborhood cats on the fence, but Dena doesn't really care, that's why this is so weird - it's like it happened to the wrong dog. Neither of them get excited by birds, of which we have plenty due to the feeders. They don't chase birds at the park either.

She goes back in today for a recheck. I can't be there, so Tom has instructions to ask if we should do a leptospirosis test. Hopefully he won't forget. (I wrote it down for him just in case!)


----------



## kelso

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> No problems there, she's totally within normal range. Anyone know what I'm looking for for pancreas values?


amylase and lipase would probably be a starting point (at least it is in humans!)
I think there are some other tests for dogs re the pancreas

ah, here is a pretty good article-I like it because some of the tests are bolded








http://www.fetchdog.com/learn-connect/do...3/I/AR000010057


----------



## kootenaydogs

Yes, elevated amylase and elevated lipase are indicative of pancreatitis.

Warming the food can make it more palatable and it's better to feed little and often when a dog isn't feeling well--as many as 4 to 6 small meals instead of 2 to 3 bigger ones.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I didn't see either of those on the report, so they may be have to be ordered separately. 

Update: Her temperature on Monday was 102.6/102.7, close to her normal, which ranges from 101.7-102.5 according to the vet, who scanned through the last few visits. Today, it's 104.9.







He took her off flagyl, gave her a Baytril shot, and has us starting 170 mgs of Orbax tomorrow. I've never heard of it, but it's apparently a broad spectrum antibiotic. I called and talked to the vet when I got home today, and he said the increase in temperature is a concern. He wants to see her again on Saturday, and if it's still elevated, do the bloodwork again rather than wait two weeks. 

He said there's a ton of tests we could do, but lepto isn't one he thinks is necessary. She's been vaccinated for 5 strains, so he thinks it's unlikely. He's not afraid of spending our money, (you don't want to know how much we've spent on this already in just two visits!!!!), so he wouldn't hesitate if he felt it was at all likely. He did tell Tom that it was a good question though.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Oh crap. No wonder she's not got an appetite. That sounds like an infection.







Did you try adding a little warm water to the food or, better yet, some broth? The important thing is to keep her hydrated and ideally to get some food in there so her body has the strength to fight whatever this is. Will she take pieces of chicken? If so, perhaps you can combine that with the wet food. 

This is the kick-a** stuff that has brought Cleo back to life on more than one occasion. http://www.homevet.com/osc/product_info.php?products_id=28

I guess it's the holistic version of pedialite.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Ruth, I'm going to try the chicken/rice/sweet potato again tonight, and I'll warm it first. She really liked it last night, so either she's not feeling as well today, or she just doesn't like it cold. I'm able to get some canned into her, and I'll just let her eat as much as she wants to if that's all she'll take. She was interested in it this morning at room temperature after she refused the other food, but didn't want it when I pulled the rest out of the fridge this afternoon until I heated it in the microwave. 

I bought a bunch more canned food today so I have plenty for at least a few days or a week, depending on how much she eats. And she will eat the biscuits, so that's something. I bought some NB roll food too, I think she'll eat that, and it's also fairly low in fat.


----------



## WiscTiger

Just a thought if her system is out of wack from what she ate plus an infection now, I would try to stay with the homecooked and not much else. The more different things you give her to eat the harder it is on her system. Kinda like when you have a really bad virus you don't want to eat much but maybe some soup. Well the homecooked is like her soup. Did you run it through the food processor, I would even think about adding some more broth to make sure she is getting the fluids she needs.

I don't want to sound pushy, but I at one time had some sort of digestive problem with every dog in the house. I found the more different things I had them eat the worse they ate, so I just went to the basic two or three ingredient homecooked until they felt much better.

Val


----------



## Barb E

Well poop that wasn't what the update was supposed to be.

Ok, now I'm zooming thoughts east and south!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Val, I appreciate what you're saying, but this morning she WOULD NOT eat the homecooked.







Totally turned her nose up at it. It was very discouraging because I need to get the supplement into her, and I can't do that if I can't get her to eat anything. Plus her strength will go downhill fast if she's not eating enough, so I was thrilled that she'd eat the canned food at all. It's Wellness 95%, with very limited ingredients, and is intended as a topper rather than a complete diet. 

I didn't bother to puree the food, I just chopped the chicken into _really_ tiny little bits, mashed up the sweet potatoes, which were practically mush anyway because I forgot about them on the stove, and added the rice I'd made the night before. I had put a bunch of turkey broth in the rice, and I cooked the sweet potatoes in the same water I'd cooked the chicken so it was flavored too. As I was mixing everything together I added a bunch of the leftover cooking water, so it's a pretty soft smooth consistency without further processing. As long as she'll consistently eat it, I have no problem continuing to make it, but I was feeling a little desperate! Especially since I have so little extra time in the morning to deal with picky eating - I'm supposed to be at work at 7:30, but yesterday I was 15 minutes late from hand feeding her, and today I was 5 minutes late. Fortunately, I'm off until Monday. Tom usually feeds breakfast, and I do dinner, but he just doesn't have the patience to deal with problems, and he doesn't do meds.









The good news is that she likes the homecooked again. Maybe she's just not a morning person.....er, dog.







I can relate, I'm not hungry in the morning either. I picked out a little bit and gave it to her cold to see if she was at all interested, and she ate it right up, so I mixed her supplement into another little bit and handfed her that too. She ate it and followed me to the kitchen, so I put about two cups into a bowl and warmed it in the microwave. She inhaled it! I heated up another big dollop, probably close to a cup, and heated it up, and she ate that too. So she's got plenty of food in her tummy this evening, yay!


----------



## BowWowMeow

Oh good. Another update and a positive one!


----------



## WiscTiger

Yikes girl I know you are excited about her eating, but 3 cups in a row is a lot of stuff.... try to go a litte easier on her system. Maybe save a cup for just before bed time. I am glad she is eating but be careful that you don't over do her system.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Yeah, I know it's a lot at once, but that's about what Ruth is feeding Chama, and she's weighs less than Dena. But you're right, it would probably be better to space it out a bit. I was just so happy she wanted to eat!!!!


----------



## GSDLoverII

I don't want to harp on the Lepto thing, but read this anyhow.

"In recent years, however, new outbreaks of Leptospirosis have been reported in the population of vaccinated dogs. Clinical evidence now suggests that these new cases are associated with the once, less-common Leptospires for which current vaccines do not protect against. In light of these findings, the process of vaccinating dogs with the current Leptospirosis vaccines is being seriously questioned."

http://www.labbies.com/lepto.htm


Kaiser had a really high fever and the thirst thing.
He had no Lepto vaccination though.
My vet didn't give it unless you asked for it, because of the high incidents of vaccine reactions, and because there were so many different strains.

Get well soon Dena! You have alot of people pulling for you.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Rafi is the one who eats homemade food. If he were getting entirely homemade food he would get 2 cups per meal and then a snack at night which would be another cup.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I just got back to this thread and have to say wow on that ALT number. 

That's high...

I have also been learning it's not just the individual numbers but how they work together. However, I don't understand that at all. 

I am glad the vet wants to do more, and do it quickly. In fact, if her temp is still that high tomorrow-that is also really high I think (?)-I'd take her in and ask for a referral to UC Davis, I think-or go there on an ER basis. I know I am probably feeling more neurotic than usual (is that possible-must be) but that's just my feeling from reading this more closely. 

Anyone who wants to disagree, certainly I would understand! ETA-I don't want to upset you-just got really nervous. Sorry!


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomLisa, I only posted the things that were outside normal ranges. The BUN and creatinine numbers were fine. I don't have the test results with me, but I can post them later if you'd like to know what they are. What would the pancreas value be called?......


Silly me, you probably said that, but I wasn't reading carefully.

Amylase and Lipase are the pancreas values, and the lipase is often an add-on, so it might not be there. A good check is to see how firm the abdominal area, just below the ribs, is when at rest. If it is firm, that is a sign of inflammation. 

I would still consider the spirulina if you are at all thinking lepto. But if the kidney values are well into the lower ranges, that's a great sign. It doesn't seem like standard lepto. Can lepto go to the liver and not the kidneys? I've never heard of it, but nothing surprises me anymore.

As a follow-up, in about 3 weeks, you might go with a round of panacur?

***small*** frequent meals are needed. I think I read you are giving probiotics.

Dena's not on any medications regularly, right? No painkillers or anything?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Ooops, sorry Ruth, I'm sure you said that it was Rafi in an earlier post, I didn't remember correctly.

No, I'm not giving any probiotics, but I have Canine Complete that has some probiotics in it, I don't know if that's sufficient. I'm almost out, and I haven't given her any since her appetite has been off. She's always been really healthy, so no meds other than the antibiotic that she's on now, plus the couple of days of flagyl prior to that.

The vet did feel her abdomen and said it's okay, no pain or anything while he examined her. I didn't ask about firmness, and I don't know what it should feel like if I were to check myself. I had Tom ask about lepto on the recommendation of GSD Lover, but my vet thinks it's highly unlikely. A quick read of the link refers to vomiting and kidney problems among other things, and so far, the kidneys are fine and she's had no vomiting at all.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I looked up Canine Complete but it doesn't say how much of the probiotics per serving so I would just get the refridgerated kind and give her that separately. 

The multiple small meals are easier on the system, that's why everyone is recommending that. 

And I know that when Cleo doesn't eat for a while she feels worse because the bile backs up in her gall bladder or something like that so I wonder if that's why she doesn't want to eat in the morning? Are you feeding her right before bed? I think I would try that.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I have to go out today and pick up some more chicken and sweet potato, so I'll swing by the health food store and pick up some acidophilus. Hopefully I can get it into her - if I remember correctly you want to give it between meals? I gave it to Keefer when he was being treated for SIBO a couple years ago, and it was no problem, I could just pour it into a dry bowl and he'd lick it right up. I don't remember how much I gave him, can someone help with that? 

I didn't give her any food before bed because I'd given her so much for dinner, but I can do that today. The good news is that she ate the homecooked this morning, and I didn't even need to warm it first, she ate it cold out of the fridge. I gave her a cup or maybe a bit more, (I didn't measure), and she wanted more. I'll wait a couple hours and try her again. Morning poop was soft but formed. I didn't poke around in it, but it looked pretty normal, no weird stuff that I could see.

I'm cooking more rice right now, and she followed me into the kitchen and was hanging around while the chicken broth was being heated, so she seems more interested in food in general today than yesterday. And she's been getting up and following both of us around the house rather than just laying there on the floor like she had been. REALLY hoping that's a good sign that she's starting to feel a little better!


----------



## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI have to go out today and pick up some more chicken and sweet potato, so I'll swing by the health food store and pick up some acidophilus. Hopefully I can get it into her - if I remember correctly you want to give it between meals? I gave it to Keefer when he was being treated for SIBO a couple years ago, and it was no problem, I could just pour it into a dry bowl and he'd lick it right up. I don't remember how much I gave him, can someone help with that?


i was giving Tilden 2 capsules, just based on the fact that he's a little over half my weight and i generally take 3. it depends on the brand/bottle and how many live organisms thats are in the capsules. if it helps - i buy Jarrow with the yellow label ( 3.4 billion ) but there are more concentrated formulas . in any event, its safe to give more than required... just not cost efficient


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Fodder, I was going to get the liquid kind that I used with Keefer - I'm not sure I can get a capsule into her without food wrapped around it. I guess I can just go by the human dose and adjust for weight.


----------



## Fodder

thats actually a good idea and i didnt think of it with Tilds because i was just using what i already had. i open the capsules and just dump it on his tongue... works, but has the potential to not be so easy.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder... works, but has the potential to not be so easy.


Yeah, I can picture that, lol! I just noticed on your link that it says to take it WITH food.







It also says that my store carries that brand - maybe I'll get both kinds and see how it goes. I can always take whatever she won't eat myself. Can't hurt!


----------



## WiscTiger

Probioitics. The only thing you need to watch is IF your dog is on ABX. Never give ABX and Probioitics at the same time, there should be at least 4 hours in between the two. 

Raya and Lakota get Probioitics and they get theirs at night with their night time snack. 

Val


----------



## 3K9Mom

I don't know much about Canine Complete, but are we supplementing Vitamin C and cranberry?

I like cranberry because it's high in vitamin C and it has other magical properties we're just starting to discover -- all in a handy softgel that's easy to swallow:



> Quote:
> Cranberries' Potent Anti-Viral Activity
> 
> Long recognized as an effective treatment for urinary tract infections, cranberry juice's benefits have now been shown to also extend to protection against viruses.
> 
> When researchers exposed three diverse viral species (the bacteriophages T2 and T4 of E. coli C and B, respectively, and the simian enteric virus, rotavirus SA-11) to commercially available cranberry juice (Ocean Spray), all were completely neutralized.
> 
> Cranberry juice's anti-viral action was rapid, dose-dependent (a 20% juice suspension was needed to stop simian rotovirus from binding to the surface of cells) and unaffected by temperature (T4 was completely inactivated at four or 23 degrees Celsius, which is unusual since lower temperature is typically associated with lesser viral "kill"). While not nearly as potent as cranberry juice, orange and grapefruit juices reduced the viral infectivity of T2 and T4 to 25-35% of the control, respectively. Phytomedicine. 2007 Jan;14(1):23-30.


http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=145

This is new info. We just don't know all that Cranberry is capable of doing. I love blueberry and other berry options for that reason too. 

You know, of course,







I'm going to recommend Costco because they have Ester C and cranberry at two-dog size quantities for good prices. If we're worried about Lepto, then Keef should be getting immune-boosting at this point too. 

And I love UC Davis for complicated and worrisome health issues. (because my dogs ALWAYS have complicated and worrisome health issues). 

Just my two cents. I'll go back to worrying and sending good thoughts and praying.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

How long has this been going on now? A week?

I would be starting to get really concerned about now and maybe thinking about UC Davis Vet School.

Hoping Dena comes round soon.


----------



## BowWowMeow

How is Dena doing and when is her next follow-up bloodwork?


----------



## DancingCavy

I just caught up on this thread. Poor Dena! We're sending well-wishes your way.


----------



## Sean Rescue Mom

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-ElperroguapoI just caught up on this thread.


Me too, it's been a loooong week at work and I'm sorry I didn't see this sooner. Deb, sending good thoughts and hugs from Sean and me - Neely is plotting her next adventure.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I wonder if they are at the vet now? Was it tonight they were going?


----------



## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder... works, but has the potential to not be so easy.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can picture that, lol! I just noticed on your link that it says to take it WITH food.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It also says that my store carries that brand - maybe I'll get both kinds and see how it goes. I can always take whatever she won't eat myself. Can't hurt!
Click to expand...

weird.
here are the directions straight off of my bottle...

_USAGE: Take 1-3 capsules per day with unchilled water, or dissolve capsule in mouth, 20-60 minutes after eating. For infants and children, open capsules and pour contents into water or over food. Or take as directed by your qualified health consultant._

lol, so it basically looks like you can take it however you want


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Our appointment is at 8:00 tomorrow morning. She went in first on Monday, got the bloodwork back Tuesday afternoon, based on the results he wanted to see her back again on Thursday, and that was when we first knew about the elevated temperature. Prior to that, he wasn't _that_ concerned, but because her temp had gone up he wanted to see her back on Saturday so he could check it again. She just got the Baytril injection Thursday evening, and the first oral dose of antibiotics today. If her temp is not down by tomorrow he may want to do bloodwork again rather than a week from Monday. When I spoke to him Thursday after her appointment (Tom took her in, I couldn't be there, so I called as soon as I got home), he said he wanted her in earlier rather than later tomorrow so he has time to do more work with her if necessary.

Her appetite is much better today, and she seems to be feeling better too, so I'm hoping that her temperature is starting to come down. He's definitely taking this seriously, and has asked me several times if I have his home and cell numbers so I can call if I have any questions or concerns. Depending on what happens tomorrow, I'll ask if he thinks it's time to take her to UC Davis or a specialist. He referred us to a neurologist/neurosurgeon when Cassidy was sick, who it turns out is one of the top in the country. I know he's consulted with Davis too, so he knows people there.


----------



## Qyn

Improving appetite is a good sign! Your vet seems willing to be proactive on this and that is also good to see. All the best.


----------



## 3K9Mom

Sending love to Dena.







Hoping she's feeling better.


----------



## BowWowMeow

How did the vet appt. go?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I don't know.







The tech took her temp, and it was 102.5. Yippie, right? Well the vet came in and examined her, felt her abdomen (no pain), and thought she felt warmer than that so he took it again. She was at 104. So he decided to do an in house CBC/chem panel, and wanted me to take her temp a couple of times at home today to see how much it fluctuates. I got 104.2, 104.2, and then just a few minutes ago, 105.4. 

He wanted me to call at noon for the blood test results, which I did, but he was busy with a client. I never heard back, and now they're closed, so I left a message on his cell. He'll be in for a couple of hours tomorrow, so I can call again then, but I really wanted to know today. I don't know if the staff didn't give him the message, or he just got so backed up he didn't have time to return calls. He tends to be VERY busy, and it's not unusual to leave a message in the morning and have him call back at the end of the day. Sigh....

He did go over the previous blood tests in detail, and even drew a diagram of the digestive tract, complete with liver, gal bladder, bile ducts, stomach, duodenum, and the intestines, showing me how it all worked. And he didn't bat an eye when I told him I was homecooking for her and giving her an herbal liver support, just said "good".


----------



## BowWowMeow

Darnit! I wish her temp would go down and stay down! Is she eating well today?

I hope he calls you back tonight. I hate waiting for that sort of thing. I just hope the fact that he didn't call is a good sign...as in he didn't find anything alarming.


----------



## WiscTiger

I am with Ruth, I get worried about elevated temps. Also I am not good at waiting for information.

I hope Dena is eating, with that temp make sure she is getting plenty of fluids.

Val


----------



## GSDOwner2008

Just seeing this. Wishing Dena well!


----------



## Sean Rescue Mom

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomHe wanted me to call at noon for the blood test results, which I did, but he was busy with a client. I never heard back, and now they're closed, so I left a message on his cell.


Sure hope you heard back later, if so, please keep us updated. Poor Dena, my heart goes out to both of you.


----------



## mspiker03

Hope Dena gets better soon! Hugs to you both!


----------



## tspiker03

Leyna and Levi are sending out good thoughts, and I am too. Levi says he is concerned about Keefer, cause Levi knows what it feelsvlike when his sister is sick. :-(


----------



## moei

Hope Dena feels better soon.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI just hope the fact that he didn't call is a good sign...as in he didn't find anything alarming.


Yeah, that's what I'm hoping too. I have his home number too, but I hate to bug him at home. I'm not even sure the cell number I have is still good, I can't remember how long ago he gave it to me. It was at least when he had Cassidy, but might have been when we had Sneaker. 

She ate when we got home from the vet's, and then we went to Costco, and took the dogs with us as usual. Since we've been home she's been outside, laying on the cool cement in the side yard. I tried to get her to come in, but she resisted - probably because she's tired of having things shoved up her butt, poor baby. So I sat outside with her and read for awhile, but she still wouldn't come back in with me. It's after 7:00, so I'll try giving her dinner. This morning she ate it cold, but I'm going to warm it up just in case she's feeling picky this evening.

Thanks everyone - have I told you lately that I love you guys?!?!?


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Hope this works out - soon!!!

Will be waiting to hear she is over this.


----------



## kelso

Lots of positive thoughts your way
Hope Dena feels better soon


----------



## Kayla's Dad

Hope all of you get a good night's rest tonight and Dena keeps getting better and puts this behind her.


----------



## LisaT

Maybe some apple juice to drink? (with no high fructose corn syrup of course)


----------



## Qyn

I'm hoping this temp fluctuations soon settles down so she can continue to improve. Hugs


----------



## GSDLoverII

Hopeing that today is a better day and that the fever broke.


----------



## Barb E

I'm keeping the good healing thoughts zooming south!!!!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

DENA! Please get better soon.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Ugh. She had zero interest in food when I first tried last night. I brought water to her and she drank it, and finally Tom made her come in the house by leading her with her collar because I wanted her inside so we could keep an eye on her. I tried bringing her some food around 9:30 last night, and she ate it. I kept giving her more until she wouldn't eat anymore, so she did get a full meal. I also brought her some more water and she drank it. 

This morning I took her temperature again, and it was up to 105.8.







I called the vet's office at 10:00, and the doctor answered himself. He wants to put her on injectable antibiotics today and tomorrow, so I'll be bringing her in again in a few minutes. He said the bloodwork was pretty much the same, (which is fairly good - at least nothing is worse than it was), but he'll go over it all in detail when I get there. 

Oh, and he said he never got the message that I called yesterday.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Does he have 24 hour staffing? Or are you injecting, going home, injecting, going home? 

I hate to be the panic button all the time-but, I am concerned. 

I have two dogs of my own in reference to the ALT who have had lower high numbers. I have also read of numbers in the thousands. So my level of terror may be set lower!!! 

I wonder if she is dehydrated? 

Again, I don't mean to be the person screaming fire in a crowded room, or freak you out worse, I just wanted to make sure I didn't walk away from this without saying something.


----------



## Castlemaid

I'm so sorry that Princess Dena is feeling so ill . .









Sending good wishes all the way down the coast for you guys!


----------



## BowWowMeow

Ugh, this is SO frustrating! I will check for an update later. I hope the new abx help! Bigs hugs for you, your family and sweet Dena!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I didn't even say anything like that-I also hope she's feeling better soon. 

Sorry.


----------



## DianaM

I just read the thread. Poor Dena! I hope she gets better SOON.


----------



## WiscTiger

Just checking in for an update on Dena. I sure hope everything is OK.

Val


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANDoes he have 24 hour staffing?


No, this is a very small practice. For much of the time we've been going there he was the only doctor. We've been going there since 1986, and he'll have another doctor there for awhile, but they move on. He's had a few that were not popular with patients so I guess he sent them packing. Right now there are two other doctors that have been there for maybe close to a year, I'm not really sure. Kathy, the vet tech that has been with Dr. Schuchman for 30 years, said that people either love him and don't want to see anyone else, (which makes it hard for new doctors), or they hate him and never come back.







He can be blunt, brutally honest, and pretty darned crabby when he's busy and stressed, which is often. I think the staff either learns not to take it personally when he snaps at them, or they decide they can't take it and leave. But, he's EXTREMELY knowledgeable and experienced, very thorough, and he definitely cares about the animals. I trust him completely, and often when he's telling me what he wants to do he'll say "this is what I would do with my own dogs". They always get me in the same day if it's important, and he never rushes you out, he'll take the time to explain everything very carefully and answer all your questions. Which is why he's usually so busy and stressed!

Jean, she was dehydrated on Monday, and they gave her fluids. Today, I pinned him down and flat out asked how serious this was in a young healthy dog. I was getting pretty scared too, and I really had no idea how bad this was, but I tend to think the worst too, especially after having lost our previous dog at a few months older than Dena is now. He said on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the worst, he thinks she's about a 4. (I was expecting him to say a 7.) He estimated an 85-95% chance she'll be fine. He's seen dogs overwhelmed by infection, and she's not there. The fact that he was having us come in every few days so he could check her and instructed me to take her temperature a couple times a day at home, and again assured me to not hesitate to call him at home if I had any questions and concerns (I hate to do that though - he works enough hours already!), tells me he's taking this very seriously. But it was good to know that he feels that we'll tackle it in time, with the right cocktail of antibiotics. 

Oh, and he said his feeling is that it's a gram-negative bacteria that we're dealing with.







We went over a couple possibilities, and he said he did not think it was poison because you wouldn't normally see a fever. When I brought her in this morning they took her temperature and it was 105. He did an ultrasound and said the liver is slightly enlarged as he would expect, but there is no blood in her abdomen, which was a concern because she's slightly anemic. The bloodwork from yesterday had her ALT at 760, up slightly from 719. The ALKP was at 461, up from 220, (but for perspective, that number can be in the 1000s, so it's still not that high). This test was also done in house vs sending it out to the lab, so it was from a different machine, which would account for some variation. He had me leave her there for a couple hours, took some more blood, and started her on the injectable antibiotics. Today's test showed her numbers already dropping from yesterday, with the ALT down to 533 (yay!) and the ALKP at 436. They gave her another injection right before I picked her up and took her temperature again, and it was down to 104.something. 

She had been looking so much better on Friday, then she seemed to take a dive yesterday, as confirmed by her increased temperature, but she's looking better again already. He and I were going over the test results and someone had gone to get Dena, and as soon as she got in the room and saw me she ran over, leaped up to give me kisses, and was jumping around all happy and excited.







The doctor said "that, right there, tells me a lot - that she still has energy and is excited about going home". When we got home I tried feeding her again, because Tom fed Keefer while I was heating up her food, and he closed him in the chainlink pen in the garage to separate him while they ate, but he didn't put the carabiner lock on the gate.







He KNOWS that Keefer can open the gate unless it's locked - you may as well leave it wide open. Normally we don't even bother separating them because they eat in about the same amount of time, but he's been very interested in her special food, and she's been eating slower than usual, so I want to make sure he doesn't bump her out of the way and eat hers too. When I feed them both I'll stand there and body block him, but I was going into the house to get dressed before taking her to the vet. When I got back to the garage, of course the gate was open, Keefer was out, and her bowl was licked clean. No idea how much she actually got, but he obviously wolfed down his food, opened the gate, and ate at least some of hers. Grrrrr, BAD hubby!







Anyway, her albumin is a little low, which the vet said could be due to not eating as much protein as usual, so I tried her on some Wellness 95% canned, and she ate the whole thing!


----------



## valleydog

a great relief to read this post-- Dena is a special dog to so many of us on this board. Sounds as if things are improving, hooray.


----------



## Brightelf

YAAYYY, Dena! Good girl for scarfing down your Wellness! Grimm sends wags and licks your way-- wanting you to feel well, and really soon, too!

ROFL at Keefer-- he MUST be related to Grimmi Oinks-a-Lot.

Sending good thoughts and prayers that Dena really and truly pummels this infection. It honestly sounds like you have a good, trustworthy vet. HE doesn't seem worried, and the fact that he is checking-- and having YOU check-- so often for her temp, how she is doing, etc. are all signs that he is really keeping atop things with Dena.

From her wild behavior about going home, it sounds like her age and super condition really is working in her favor. You take such great care of both Dena and Keefer! Prayers and healing vibes sent Dena's way from Patti, Ulrich(DH) and Grimmi.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Oh thank goodness! What great news!


----------



## BowWowMeow

Great news! I hope she continues to improve.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Sounds like she is coming round slowly!!! But hat is great news!


----------



## WiscTiger

Things sound good. I guess she just has one of these bugs that are harder to knock out. Which Antibioitic is she getting? Hugs Dena eat and sleep well tonight.

Keefer says, yumm home cooked food, momma can I have some more..... Boys are always hungry.

Val


----------



## Karin

I'm so glad to hear that Dena is doing better! I hope she continues to improve and is totally back to normal real soon!


----------



## Barb E

Sounds like Dena is doing better, that is good news!!!


----------



## Kayla's Dad

Sounds like things are looking up. Good girl Dena, we're all pulling for you. Good vibes coming your way.


----------



## LisaT

Has doxycycline ever been tried? There are so many weird things (including tick stuff) that respond to it and not other antibiotics.....


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Val, and Lisa - he told me the names of the two antibiotics that she's getting but I don't remember either of them. The tag just says "injection", so I'll ask the names tomorrow afternoon and write them down. 

Edited to add: Last night at this time she was a blob on the floor. Tonight she's going to town on a Nylabone.


----------



## Qyn

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomLast night at this time she was a blob on the floor. Tonight she's going to town on a Nylabone.


That, to me, says a lot, by which I mean it's good news







.... plus her enthusiastic greeting to you, I really believe she is on the mend. Hooray!!


----------



## WiscTiger

Oh a mix of ABX. One time when DeeDee got ????? the Vet had been having a lot of cases come in, she wasn't exactly sure what it was, but she had been working on enough dogs to know what worked, it was 3 different Antibioitics. So hoping that this new combination is the key. 

This is really good news


> Quote:Tonight she's going to town on a Nylabone.


Val


----------



## 3K9Mom

Hoping that Dena is a bounding-around pup when you get home from work.


----------



## Barb E




----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Not exactly bounding around, but she did bark at the UPS guy.









The doctor didn't come in until noon today, so Tom dropped her off on his way to the jobsite, and I left work early and picked her up. They were doing an X-ray of her abdomen and chest cavity, so I had to wait. Her liver and spleen are slightly enlarged, but everything else looks good. Unfortunately, her temperature is back up over 105 - I took it at 105.8 first thing this morning, and they took it at 105.7 a few hours later. She seems to be feeling better, she's eating fairly well, but she still has a fever.

She got her injections, Gentamicin and Ampicillin. She was tested for Lyme, Ehrlichiosis, and something else (my brain is fried!) and all were negative. They took more blood and are sending it out to the lab for a complete tick panel, and a canine immune panel. One thing he mentioned as a possibility is autoimmune hemolytic anemia, which can be triggered by an infection or inflammation. He's also starting her on oral Tetracycline in addition to the two injectable antibiotics, and he has a call into an internist at the Idexx lab to see if there's anything else we should be looking at. 

They hadn't written it all up yet, so I have no idea how much today's visit is, but through yesterday we were at over $1500, ouch! And she goes in again tomorrow for more injections, and who knows what else.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Just hoping this is bad infection that is being stubborn.

There is nothing cheap about our dogs is there?


----------



## djpohn

One of my friends had a pup that she had sold exhibit similar symptoms over time. He was in and out of the emergency vet and they thought it was some kind of immune issue. She took the dog to her vet and he did exploritory surgery and found a couple small perforations that were leaking fecal matter causing the temperature. He sutured the tears and the pup ended up being fine (he had eaten a stick). They used dyprirone (not sure of the spelling) to help get the fever down.

Hope she is feeling better soon.


----------



## BowWowMeow

****. I wanted to get on this thread and hear that the fever was gone. 

This is what I found about AIHA and it doesn't really sound like Dena's case fits. Do you think it does?

Autoimmune hemolytic anemia

Anemia is a clinical sign, not a disease, and is defined as a decrease in the number of red blood cells (RBCs) or the amount of hemoglobin, resulting in a decrease in the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood. Anemia can be caused by blood loss, decreased production of new RBCs, or an increase in the rate of their destruction, known as hemolytic anemia.

In hemolytic anemia, the RBCs become "defective" in the eyes of the immune system by acquiring markers on the cell surface that are recognized as "non-self."These markers can be true autoantibodies, as in primary AIHA, or can be secondary to drugs, infectious disease, cancer, blood parasites, or heavy metals. Levamisole, certain antibiotics, Dilantin (phenytoin), lead, and zinc have all been implicated as potential causes of hemolytic anemia.

When the spleen and the rest of the immune system is working to rid the body of old, diseased, or damaged RBCs, it is doing its job appropriately. When a large percentage of cells are affected, and they are removed faster then they can be replaced, AIHA results and the animal shows external signs of the disease.

The clinical signs of AIHA are usually gradual and progressive, but occasionally an apparently healthy pet suddenly collapses in an acute hemolytic crisis. The signs are usually related to lack of oxygen: weakness, lethargy, anorexia, and an increase in the heart rate and respirations. Heart murmurs and pale mucous membranes (gums, eyelids, etc.) may also be present. More severe cases also have a fever and "icterus" (jaundice), a yellow discoloration of the gums, eyes, and skin. This is due to a buildup of bilirubin, one of the breakdown products of hemoglobin.

The diagnosis is usually made on these clinical signs as well as a CBC documenting anemia, often with misshapen or abnormally-clumped RBCs. A Coomb's test may be done to confirm the diagnosis. Corticosteroids are the primary drugs used to treat any autoimmune disease. Very high immunosuppressive doses are used initially to induce a remission, and then the dose is very slowly tapered over many weeks or months to a low maintenance dose. Most affected dogs must be kept on steroids the rest of their lives and are susceptible to relapses.

If steroids alone are insufficient, more potent immunosuppressive drugs such as Cytoxan (cyclophosphamide) or Imuran (azathioprine) may be added. These chemotherapeutics are very effective, but the dog must be monitored closely for side effects, including a decreased white blood count.

Splenectomy, the surgical removal of the spleen, has also been recommended for nonresponsive cases. This benefits the dog in two ways: less antibodies are made against the RBCs, and the primary organ responsible for their destruction is removed. An animal can live quite normally without a spleen.

Blood transfusions are rarely used. Adding foreign protein can actually intensify the crisis state, increase the amount of bilirubin and other breakdown products the liver must process, and suppress the bone marrow's natural response to anemia. In a life-threatening anemia, cross-matched blood may be transfused along with immunosuppressive therapy.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

It's hard to say Ruth, there was so much info thrown at me that I can't remember it all - but she is slightly anemic, her gums are pale, and her spleen as well as her liver are slightly enlarged. But her heart sounds fine and there's no jaundice. 

Blood work showed Direct Bilirubin high at .04 (normal is 0.0-.02), and her urinalysis showed Bilirubin at 2+, which was flagged as high, without any normal ranges shown. There was also something about clumped platelets, so I think the lab is going to look at that too. They are doing the Coombs test, which is apparently not a definitive diagnosis, but a positive will "suggest" AIHA. 

The test results I have say:

Platelet Estimate
Platelets - Clumped
Large Platelets Present
Scanning of the blood smear revealed adequate platelet numbers. Due to clumping and/or large platelets the automated platelet number cannot be accurately determined. 

RBC (red blood cells?) were 5.54 on 9/16 from the lab, and then the in house tests were 4.05 on 9/20, and 3.95 on 9/21. Normal is 5.5-8.5.

At this point he's covering all the bases and ruling things out, which will hopefully lead to a diagnosis and treatment.


----------



## Annikas Mom

Sent you a PM...


----------



## WiscTiger

Here is a nice link that explains the functions of the spleen. The information about Splenic Masses doesn't apply here but I thought the function information is some of the best I have run across.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_splenic_masses.html


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Morning temperature: 101.6


----------



## Annikas Mom

That is wonderful news!!!!


----------



## Avamom

AWESOME!!!!


----------



## WiscTiger

Oh, that is very good news. Yea happy dance......

Val


----------



## GSDLoverII

Now, that's more like it! 
Yay, Dena!!!!!!!!


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Ah some good news!!!!!


----------



## kootenaydogs

That must be a HUGE relief!









I hope that Dena's finally turned the corner and is on her way to a complete and speedy recovery. 

The last few days must have been really, really stressful for you. Hope that's behind you now.


----------



## GSDOwner2008

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomMorning temperature: 101.6


That's so awesome! I hope Dena makes a recovery soon!


----------



## BowWowMeow

Oh, THANK GOODNESS!!!!!!!!! I hope her temp stays down now.


----------



## moei

> Originally Posted By: GSDOwner2008
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomMorning temperature: 101.6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's so awesome! I hope Dena makes a recovery soon!
Click to expand...


----------



## Kayla's Dad

Great news.









Hopes it stays down. No more high temps.


----------



## 3K9Mom

Camper says Dena's a Hottie.







But we don't want her hot THAT way. Good to hear the fever is breaking. Good news.


----------



## mspiker03

Glad to hear she is feeling better!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Temp is still down (102 and 102.2 at the vet's office), autoimmune panel negative, not all the tick stuff is back yet, but what we have so far is negative, she's off injectable antibiotics, and we're adding oral Baytril back to the continuing Tetracycline. Platelets are still low, but climbing - from 71 to 81 to 85 (today), normal is 175-500, but it's still saying "there are clumped and/or large platelets, so the actual count can't be accurately determined and may be higher". 

Anemia is improving, RBC went up from 3.95 to 4.05 to 4.66, (normal is 5.5 to 8.5), HCT went from 26.3% to 27.3% to 31.7%, (normal is 37% to 55%). Something else was bumped into the high range, but it's a good thing, that indicates she's making red blood cells at a higher than previous rate, so the anemia should continue to improve. 

Her appetite is still pretty good, activity level is far from normal, but improving, so we have a reprieve tomorrow and she goes back in Thursday afternoon for a recheck. And, oh, the EXPENSE!!!!! One of the tests they ran yesterday was $488 all by itself.


----------



## Brightelf

SO HAPPY to hear that Dena is improving!







Really glad her temp is staying down. What a tough cookie Miss Dena is! This has been such a wild ride for all of you. I just know Dena will get a bit more activity back soon, as her appetite is good and she is doing better with the anemia, blood count. Sending healing thoughts and prayers to







Dena, and wishing renewal to your pocketbook! Hang in there. You are doing so much for sweetie Dena, and she is improving so well under your care. Hoping for all good news







as the tests all come back.


----------



## WiscTiger

OMG, Dena sounds like Lakota for a while, every time we stepped foot in the Vet's office it was a $500 dollar bill. 

I am glad to hear the the temp is still down.

Val


----------



## Barb E

on the improvement








on the one test being almost $500.00


----------



## Sean Rescue Mom

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomHer appetite is still pretty good, activity level is far from normal, but improving, so we have a reprieve tomorrow and she goes back in Thursday afternoon for a recheck.


Ecstatic about the temp staying down, wishing you good luck on Thursday. Keep up the good work Miss Dena.


----------



## valleydog

what brightelf, and everyone else, said. I've been following Dena's struggle so closely, and am SO HAPPY to read the latest upturns.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thank goodness Dena!

Do they have any idea why this happened? Probably not yet! 

Keep it going!!!

PS-vetting in CA is SO expensive-on IMOM you could always tell when an estimate was from there-it was so much higher than other places.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

I am in OR and I think Havoc's total for all his puppy problems last year was 3 grand.

I guess we spend what we need to spend. 

Kayos' hip surgery was $4200 and her care for her Rimadyl reaction last week was $200. Gonna have to vet Max again too I am afraid, he is just acting bizarre again and probably time to try something else for his dementia.

Jean I do not even want to know what Nina's bills are.

I am just glad Dena is doing better and appears on the mend.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I'm very glad to hear that our patient continues to improve. Good girl, Dena!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thanks everyone - we appreciate it so much!







She's not out of the woods, her appetite for dinner tonight was GREAT, (she ate the usual amount of homecooked food along with a can and a half of Natural Balance) but she's still not quite herself. I got her to play with a ball for a few minutes tonight, but I'll be really happy when she picks up a toy on her own and shoves it in Keefer's face, or comes out of her crate in the morning looking for a toy to carry in her mouth. 

Jean, I don't know if we'll ever know exactly what happened. But the antibiotics she's on now will cover lepto, tularemia, and some weird form of plague that the vet said one of his veterinary colleagues died from after handling wild animals. And all the other stuff she might have gotten has been ruled out. But I'm sure it's all related to whatever she ate - it took 5 or 6 days to completely pass through her system, so apparently it did some real damage along the way.


----------



## BowWowMeow

This whole thing is really scary--especially since you have no idea how/what she ate! 

Chama, Massie and Basu (especially Chama and Massie) ate SO many dead, decaying who knows whats over the course of their lives. I feel so lucky that this didn't happen to them. Of course they did get horrible diarrhea (sometimes every half hour) but I was able to get them through it with fasting, homemade food and activated charcoal. 

I swear sometimes reading this board makes me paranoid. I might never get another dog now.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI swear sometimes reading this board makes me paranoid. I might never get another dog now.


I KNOW!!!!







I never gave a second thought to spays/neuters until I joined this board. And then I read about all the horror stories of anesthesia and surgeries gone bad and now I stress out like crazy - I'll never be the same!


----------



## kelso

SO glad to hear Dena is feeling better


----------



## Qyn

I'm so pleased that Dena is showing positive signs of recovery even if it is still not complete - she will get there when she is ready.


----------



## valleydog

Interesting but creepy about the plague. I'd thought about that as a possibility and typed it, then decided it sounded too ghoulish and deleted that part! She sounds SO much better-- that's what counts!


----------



## Avamom

I am so glad that Dena's temp is down and her blood levels are improving. Try not to be too upset that she is still lethargic and not herself, anemia takes a while to get over, its great that she is regenerating but that in and of itself takes a lot of energy so its quite normal that she is just laying around, she is using all her energy into kicking that infections butt and making more red blood cells!!!


----------



## Karin

Glad to hear that Dena is doing better. One of my friends has a GSD that got really sick last year. The vet thought that she might have gotten into something in their back yard. The symptoms sound very similar to Dena's (fever, lethargy, loss of appetite). The vet put her on antibiotics and eventually she made a full recovery. They never did find out what caused it, but she's doing great now and she was an older dog (10) at the time she got sick.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Sinclair, I was pretty anemic a couple of years ago, so I know how crappy it makes you feel. I'm seeing improvement day by day. Her temperature was normal again today, her appetite is still good, and she actually seems happier! That's the biggest thing for me. It may be awhile before she gets her full energy back, but it's nice to see her smile, act hungry at mealtimes, wag her tail, and solicit butt scritches (her fave!).


----------



## WiscTiger

Yea another great day for Dena. It really sounds like she has turned the corner, that is so great. I had a nurse tell me once that for every day you are sick it takes 3 days to get back to normal.


----------



## Fodder




----------



## Castlemaid

Great news!!!! Very happy to hear the turnaround!


----------



## Clare

I dont get on the board much so I'm just reading this! I'm soooo glad Dena is feeling better - sending good thoughts your way!!!! (For a lottery win too - YIKES on the vet bills!!!)


----------



## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom.........But the antibiotics she's on now will cover lepto, tularemia, and some weird form of plague that the vet said one of his veterinary colleagues died from after handling wild animals. And all the other stuff she might have gotten has been ruled out. But I'm sure it's all related to whatever she ate - it took 5 or 6 days to completely pass through her system, so apparently it did some real damage along the way.


It seems like, catching up on the reading, that her platelets started responding after the tetracycline was started? 

I'm glad that they have her on that host of abx. Personally, I don't believe many of the lyme tests for the west coast -- I think we have bugs or strains that present differently. Who knows what else these critters carry that we don't know about. And when you hear there is platelet involvement and/or anemia, that's a stronger indication you are looking at this type of involvement.

I am so relieved to read about the improvement -- wonderful news!!


----------



## valb

Checking in on Miss Dena. You mentioned tularemia, that is rabbit
isn't it? Or can squirrels or something carry it, too?

I hope she is doing better. Hate to see them sick, it's so sad
when they can't tell you exactly where it "hurts".

Sending cyber butt scritches to her. (Now that's a first!)

Love you Miss Dena.


----------



## SeriousConfusion

Just saw this thread, hope that Dena is feeling better.

Sorry to hear all this. Sending good thoughts your way


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thanks everyone. Val, I have no idea, I'd never heard of tularemia before. Since we don't know what she ate or how it made her sick, I think he's just covering all the bases, even if some of the possibilities are pretty remote. 

We go back this afternoon for a recheck, hopefully I can get out of there for less than $200. She's been SO good, she's been stuck for blood draws and injections numerous times, and had her temperature taken dozens of times, and been very cooperative through it all.


----------



## Annikas Mom

Continued well wishes to Miss Dena!!
Extra scritches from the Grass Valley crew!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Well, some good news and some bad news. The worst thing is her temperature was up again. They took it 3 times, and it ranged from 103.5 to 105.1 I'm kind of not surprised - I was running late this morning and didn't have a chance to take her temp before work, but she didn't seem as perky today as she was last night, and she didn't eat all her breakfast. She's lost at least 4 pounds since this started, she's down to 69.1 pounds, not a seriously low weight for her by any means, but I've decided that when her appetite is good I'm going to let her eat as much as she wants. He suggested adding eggs, cottage cheese, and yogurt to her diet. I did try some non-fat plain yogurt when we got home because I had some in the fridge, and she ate it with gusto. 

And the anemia has not improved - actually the numbers have gone down very slightly. They're still at about twice the level they'd be at before he'd be thinking about a blood transfusion, but it's still a concern. He gave her a deximethisone injection, (a steroid) and she'll be getting another one tomorrow, Saturday, and maybe Sunday. She had one Tuesday, and maybe Monday too, I don't know. So that could be what brought her temp down. 

The good news is that ALT continues to drop. At the high point it was 790, and then it dropped to 533 - today it's at 316. Still pretty far above normal, but heading in the right direction. The other number, which is less important is the ALKP - that's gone up slightly from 436 to 547. But that number can be up into the thousands, so it's not that bad, comparatively. But still, I'm feeling somewhat discouraged.







We may be checking Keefer as a blood donor. And the dollars keep adding up.....


----------



## BowWowMeow

Oh no! How frustrating and how terrible for poor Dena (and your checkbook!)

I wish they could figure out what's going on for sure and treat it! Argh.


----------



## LisaT

I would ask about switching the tetracycline to doxycycline maybe?


----------



## kelso

Lots of positive thoughts your way. Hoping that temp will get down and stay down. Thinking of you and Dena and the family. Get well soon Dena!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Ask if the liver values going down could be a function of the steroid. I seem to remember my vet saying that with Kramer's at one point-that if I wanted the numbers to go down, regardless of cause-we could do that. (he wasn't being serious about just doing that-but we were trying to get those numbers down!)

I also know that the steroid is supposed to break a fever (I don't know why). 

At Cornell they store the blood by...ingredient-can't think of the word. They separate it all out so that there is less of a chance of reaction to transfusions. Another thing to ask about.









Gah. Thinking of you guys and hoping all is well SOON.


----------



## Rika_Tula

I have been watching this thread bouncing back and forth to the top of this section and had no idea by the subject title that sweet Dena's health was not good. So, after 10 pages, I was like I need to see what that is all about!









I have read through all the posts and wanted to add my prayers and well thoughts for her.









It seems that whatever she may have gotten into is not completely out of her system, yet. Maybe that is why her fever keeps coming back. Maybe you have already considered this but what about mega-boosting her immune system to help fight this thing? I was thinking of Bee Pollen. I know it is in Canine Complete Joint Mobility but I can't remember if it's in the Canine Complete. A little extra may prove beneficial, too. The enzymes in Bee Pollen are also great for digestion which may help with utilizing nutrients from the food she is getting.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

We have some possibilities. My regular vet wasn't there and I talked to one of the newer ones that I'd never met before. He had been brought up to speed on what was going on by my doctor, who also had consulted with a specialist. Apparently, this is very complicated, and there are no clear answers. 

What IS clear is that she responds pretty dramatically to cortico-steroids, which suggests Addison's, or an autoimmune disease. She had several deximethisone injections, but did not have one on Wednesday. The following morning, she ate only half her breakfast, was noticeably more lethargic, and when I brought her in that evening for a recheck, her fever was back. They gave her another injection, and when I went in today, her temp is back down to 101.5. 

The fever, lethargy and anemia could be any number of things, but there is one type of Addison's called Evan's Syndrome that would also account for the low platelets, basically the immune system destroys them. Dr. Harika thinks it's less likely that she has this or another form of Addison's, based on her urinalysis report that the kidneys are concentrating urine properly. A test would confirm or rule it out, but the two steroids she got today would cause a negative test result. He wants to stabilize her first, then withhold treatment for 48 hours and try the test, rather than do it now and put her life at risk.

Robin, since this could be autoimmune, boosting her immune system wouldn't be good, but I appreciate the thought.


----------



## LisaT

Wow. this is just weird, and certainly disturbing that it isn't nailed down yet.

I don't remember if I've asked this, but, before this last incident, when was the last bloodwork, if any?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Lisa, last bloodwork was 4/07. Is there anything specific you'd like me to post? I have the report.


----------



## LisaT

I don't know what to look for. I was just thinking if there were any values that were normal, yet "living at the edges". With Addision's, I think that they look at sodium and probably potassium, though some form of Addison's won't show that. And I'm sure that they could have been normal and then flaired.

In the tick tests that were run, was Anaplasmosa/E.Equii included? I've seen these symptoms on the tick list -- and when there is anemia, often there is an initial response to steroids. I guess my stubborn brain is having a hard time letting go of that....

I forgot -- but the current blood count of the white blood cells -- some where/are elevated? When were they last run?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

The only thing I see that's outside normal ranges is that her platelets were a little low then too. Normal is showing 175-500. She was 165 then, and now she's ranging between 71 and 85 from the 20th through the 23rd. I'm not sure where she was yesterday, I forgot to get a copy of the results. 

I'm not sure what all the tick panel included. But the antibiotics she's on should cover all of the possibilities, I think. Also, her lymph nodes are fine, the doctor checked them today. He mentioned enlarged lymph nodes as a symptom of some of the tick diseases. I asked about doxy, and they only carry the injectable form, they'd have to order the pills.

I assume WBC is white blood cells - she ranged from 7.4 - 8.63, well within normal ranges which are shown as 5.5 - 16.9. So that's kind of odd, the fever indicates an infection, but the white cell count is normal.


----------



## LisaT

If she's not on doxy, then the antibiotics don't cover all the tick issues......lymph nodes need not be enlarged, but may be. Seems to me that it's a hail mary if nothing else is getting it. Regular tetracycline isn't doxy (I order mine online and administer without prescription). 

I don't know if it's tick related or not, but it could be, and in my mind, that hasn't been taken off the table. If you are curious, you could get on the tick list, describe what is happening, and see what the members think. I would trust them over me -- many of them have been through what you are going through now. It may not be tick related, but flat-out autoimmune too.

If the platelets were a bit low back then, this might be something that she has been harboring, being it infection or autoimmune. Was she vaccinated since that 2007 blood test?

I wonder if the drugs are keeping the WBC down? Like you, with the fever, it doesn't seem to add up. Maybe someone will jump in with some info.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I can see if they'll order doxy for me. I'm not sure when her last vaccinations were, I usually keep the vet paperwork, but it's not organized so I might not even be able to find it. But it's possible. 

I don't think the drugs are keeping the WBC down because she wasn't on any when the first test was run. When I brought her in for the first time on Monday the 16th (first indication that she wasn't feeling well was the previous Friday, so this was 4 days later), the WBC was 7.4, at the low end of the normal range.


----------



## Rika_Tula

I'm not sure Bee Pollen is considered a mega-immune booster. I was trying to tune into something that might help support Dena's body during this crisis. I noticed that on the Springtime website, they claim that Bee Pollen helps to keep blood count healthy...they list it mainly as a "live food" and "enzyme/digestion" value. That's really why I suggested it - not for the immune system.

I'm not a Bee Pollen expert by any stretch of the imagination and only got turned onto it this year. I'm still learning about it (and not pushing it on you). It has shown great anti-inflammatory benefits for Myrika's hip dysplasia.

Dena's situation is a wake-up call and one of my fears living in out in the boonies. I am concerned about my dogs getting into a diseased and/or dead critter (squirrels, mice, chipmunks, birds, etc). That and all the mushrooms that have popped up this year - yikes!

Thinking positive thoughts for Dena and continued prayers for her health...and that they identify & pin this thing down now!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thanks so much Robin, it's all new to me too - we're kind of figuring it out as we go along! LOTS more research to do....


----------



## GSDLoverII

When Kaiser had Lepto, he was on Doxy for a couple of months.
The other 2 dogs had to take Doxy for a month just for precautionary measures.


----------



## mspiker03

And here I was thinking Dena was doing much better









Give her hugs from all of us down south! We hope she is feeling better soon and you get this thing all figured out.


----------



## LisaT

How is Dena doing today?

Do you know if the tick test that was run was the in-house SNAP test, that they give with the heartworm test?


----------



## valleydog

Yes, hoping for good news. The weekend's are so hard when your dog isn't well and the vet's closed.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Lisa, there were so many tests done that I don't know what was what. But I do know that the tick panel was sent out to the lab, it was not done in-house. And some of the results came back before others did.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Oh no!!!!

I have been offline working our dog shows this weekend and was certain Dena was on the mend!

No advice just positive thoughts.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Just checking in on Dena? How is she doing today?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

She's doing pretty well, considering. My vet thinks that it's an autoimmune response triggered by infection, and rather than a long term disease requiring life long management, it's his feeling that she'll get past this. Right now we're suppressing her immune system with corticosteriods, and it's working to protect her red blood cells, and also keep down her temperature. When her temperature is down and the anemia is improving she feels better and her appetite is better too.

She had a packed cell volume test on Friday, and it was 20/21%. On Saturday her temp was still normal, and her PCV was up to 25%. Its still below normal, but it's heading in the right direction. We didn't do the test today, but she got another shot of steroids, and we're going to check it again tomorrow. She's still on Baytril and Tetracycline, and he's ordering Doxycycline for me, (he stocks the injectable, but not the pills) which she'll start on Wednesday when we finish the Tetracycline I already have. 

He's seen similar cases recently where they delay steroids and the animal slips away, so he's hitting it pretty aggressively to stop her immune system from destroying red blood cells. The response is pretty dramatic - she didn't have the shot on Wednesday, and by Thursday her temp was back up, she was lethargic, and her appetite was poor. Since then, she's had the shot, and she's brighter, her appetite is good, her red blood cells are up, and the fever is gone.


----------



## DianaM

How strange.. steroids have a neat way of fixing just about everything temporarily, but I hope Dena can hang onto that on her own and just get back to normal. Whatever she got into was a doozy. 








to Dena! Get better soon.


----------



## BowWowMeow

I'm glad your vet is actively involved in figuring out how to treat this. It still scare the sh*t out of me though! I hope things continue to work and she kicks this nastiness out of her system soon. All of the steroids are making me nervous...worrying about what's going to happen when she goes off of them. Hopefully she'll be all clear by then though.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I worry about the steroids too - but not using them isn't a great option right now because she clearly declines when she's off them. Even if she can be tapered down to a low dose but needs to stay on them forever, (Addison's for example), it's better than the option, which is that her immune system continues to destroy her red blood cells to the point where she needs emergency blood transfusions to survive. 

And it does give me hope that he feels like that's not the case here, that we can buy her time and build her back up with the steroids while her body fights this off with the antibiotics, and then we can taper her off the steroids completely. I'm actually less scared than I was when she was not responding to the antibiotics and her temperature wouldn't go down and the anemia was continuing to get worse. When he asked me how much younger Keefer was and if he was from the same breeding as her, I knew he was thinking about whether or not he might be a good blood donor for her, and THAT scared the crap out of me!!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

Yes, I agree that your vet thinks this is situational and not chronic. And I am glad that the steroids are working the way that they should with her temp and appetite and energy. How long will you continue the current course of treatment? Is the idea to just keep checking every few days to see how she does off of steroids?


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Oh Dena!!!! You are scaring me!!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Ruth, he's got her on oral pred as well, starting yesterday, and today he gave her a half dose of deximethisone. He'll see what her PCV is tomorrow and then decide if he'll give her another shot, and how much, based on that. Ideally, we'll be able to stabilize her on the pred and get her off the injections soon, and then also taper down and stop the pred. 

But he'll be monitoring her carefully in the meantime. We've been there more days than not - tomorrow will be the 11th day out of the last 2 weeks that we've brought her in, and she's had numerous tests - CBCs, chem panels, glucose (which is also low), and PCV. We're kind of playing it by ear.


----------



## BowWowMeow

That is a lot of vet visits! But, as I said before, I am glad that your vet is actively involved. And I'm also glad that something is working. The whole thing is still so weird!!!!!!


----------



## Barb E

Still no words of advice but wanted you to know I'm still sending thoughts south!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThat is a lot of vet visits!


And a FORTUNE in vet bills!!!







But it's Dena....and there's no amount of time and effort that's too much for us to help her get better - she just HAS to. She's the best, sweetest, most beautiful, wonderful, perfect dog ever!


----------



## Kayla's Dad

Keeping positive thoughts for Dena. Hoping things continue in a positive direction.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Please continue to update often-I check this first-so scary for Dena and her people. 

Good thinking on the blood...

Keeping good thoughts for Dena!


----------



## WiscTiger

Sending good thoughts. I hope that the combination of the ABX and the steroids is the key to help miss Dena throught this.

Sending positive healing thoughts your way.

Val


----------



## GSDLoverII

How's our girl today?


----------



## Sean Rescue Mom

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomAnd a FORTUNE in vet bills!!!


Hey Deb, let's start our own club.







But you're absolutely correct, Dena is worth every last penny. Hoping for good news today.


----------



## moei

Sending positive healing thoughts Dena's way.


----------



## WiscTiger

Looking for out Dena update. 

I hope she is hanging in there.

Val


----------



## valleydog

I keep checking too.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Dena????? What's going' on girl???


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I didn't want to be "pushy"...but since everyone else is posting for updates, I will join in!


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

And I will bump! 

Being that it is only just a few minutes past 9 AM here in the pacific time zone I doubt Dena has been in for her check yet today. But hey, we can be gentle nags!!!!


----------



## BowWowMeow

I'm just going to assume that no news is good news. But a confirmation would be nice!


----------



## Clare

any news????


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Sorry!!!

Nothing new to report - she had an appointment yesterday afternoon, temp still normal, PCV around 24%. She got another steriod shot and a B-12, we started doxy today instead of tetracycline and baytril. I got the SAMe supplement in the mail yesterday, so I started her on that today too, along with the antibiotic, Milk Thistle supplement and the oral pred. Appetite is still good, poop is still a long way from normal, but improving, and I put her on B-Naturals Digestive Blend to see if that helps.

She's on 100 mgs of doxy every 12 hours, I forgot to ask how long she should be on it too. Is that a typical dose for a 72-74 pound dog? She goes back in again this afternoon, and he'll decide if she gets the steriod again.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Well..... better news at least! Sounds like she is going to pull out of this.


----------



## moei

Sending positive thoughts to sweetie pie Dena.


----------



## Clare

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mompoop is still a long way from normal, but improving,


not surprising with all the antibiotics she's on... I know what the do to me!!!!









Positive healing thoughts for Dena!!!!


Howz Keefer doing with his sister not feeling well? I think if that was Sasha and Wolfgang he'd be terribly upset - he worships the ground she walks on.


----------



## jecg

I’m so glad that Dena is feeling better.

When your vet ran the tick tests, do you know if he tested for Babesiosis? I’ve always thought of it as an east coast tick disease, until I read on the site below that 13% of Calif. Shelter dogs test positive for it.

http://blackgsd.googlepages.com/babesiosis

Probably just a wild guess on my part…. but I think everyone on this board has Dena in their thoughts. Take care. 

Jennifer


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I just got back from the vet's, Dena is still there. I came home early from work today because I'm exhausted and feeling overwhelmed by all this. I noticed that she seemed to be in distress, would lay down and then get up and walk a few paces and lay down again. She was panting more than usual, and then she started this faint high pitched whine. I'm thinking OMG, bloat! 

Of course it's my usual vet's day off and the vet who is there today is the only one of the 3 that she hasn't see so far, and of course it's during their lunch break so he's not even there. She has an appointment to go in for her steroid shot at 4:00, and this is about 1:30, 1:45, so I call and they say the doctor will be back at 3:00 and I can bring her in then. I wait about 10 minutes and then I can't stand it anymore and I call back and ask if there's any way he'd be back sooner because I'm strongly suspecting bloat and time is of the essence, so they call him and he says he'll be there in 20 minutes. I give her a couple of gas-x pills while we wait to leave. We only live 5-10 minutes away.

I bring her in, (she won't lay down in the car, she stands the whole way there), one of the guys feels her tummy and said it definitely feels distended, they her temperature (normal), and then take her to do x-rays. Robert comes back, (the vet tech who has been there most of the times I've brought her in in the last two weeks, who knows what's been going on with her) and said her stomach is very large, and then he drew some blood "just in case" the vet needs to do something, meaning surgery.









They did a PCV test while they waited for the doctor, (who didn't actually make it in for 45 minutes), and it was at 18%. Double







So the anemia is not improving, even with the steroids, although the temp is stable and her appetite is good. Anyway, he tries passing a feeding tube into her stomach, and a bunch of liquid spews out, so fortunately it wasn't bloat. They're going to keep her a couple of hours and he's going to call our usual doctor and go over her records. And then I guess we'll see where we go from here.


----------



## mspiker03

OMG Deb, I am so sorry to hear this. Poor Dena, I hope she gets better soon! Hugs!


----------



## WiscTiger

OH, poor Dena and poor mom. There was a reason you came home early from work. 

Fingers cross that they can figure out what is going on.

Sending healing thoughts

Val


----------



## Barb E

Oh crap _*Doubling the thought power heading south*_


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Oh no. 

Healing thoughts coming from WNY.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

OMG!!!!! This is not happening. She is going to be fine. 

I think you came home for a reason.


----------



## Kayla's Dad

Oh no. 

Hoping this is only a temporary and short lived setback. 

Come on, Dena, you've got a whole lot of people sending healing and positive thoughts your way.


----------



## Rika_Tula

Prayers for Dena.


----------



## gmcenroe

I can't believe Dena is still under the weather. I hope she pulls out of this and makes a turn for the better. I am putting all my positive energy and prayers towards a faster recovery Dena. 

Your continued care and medical support is amazing. Dena deserves to get better after all she has been through. 

I'm wishing the best for her.

Glenn


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I have a possible answer for what happened today. The doctor noticed something small and red that came out of her stomach that he thought looked like a grape. We have no grapes in the house. I looked around the yard, and one of the plants in a pot outside the sliding glass door has red berries on it. I looked it up online (Red Cestrum), and found a site that said all parts are poisonous. 

Further searching led me to the UC Davis Toxic Plant list, and sure enough, cestrum is on there. There are 4 classes of toxicity, with #1 being the worst: 

1.) Major Toxicity: These plants may cause serious injury or death. If ingested, immediately call the Poison Control Center or your doctor. 

Cestrum is classed as a 1. I don't know if she ate a berry or two it would be a big deal, but I just called the vet and he said it may be that it irritated her stomach, causing her to drink a bunch of water. He's going to call the Poison Control Center, and they can fill her up with charcoal if necessary. 

This plant is in the main part of the yard where the dogs never are unless we're out there with them. But Dena has had soft serve poop for a couple weeks now, and Tom has been hosing down the side yard after he scoops, so the dogs are back there for a short time every day while the gate to the dog run is open. I found one berry on the ground, and several branches at dog head level, which Tom cut off and threw away. We might just pull the whole plant.


----------



## AK GSD

OMG! Has the vet mentioned anything about the possibility of a perforation/leak from the bones passing thru her system?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Not specifically, but the pieces of bone were TINY. That's why I had no idea what it was, it was like a clump of little yellowish white crumbs in her stool. But they've x-rayed her and everything looked normal (except for today), and she'd had an ultrasound too, and there was no blood in her abdomen. If there had been, that would be a cause of the anemia, so it was definitely something they looked at.


----------



## Annikas Mom

Oh no!! I was hoping for good news and I find this... I am so sorry and she must pull through this!! 

I know this is hard Dena but be strong girl, there are a whole lot of people sending you the strength to get better!

Hugs to you and Tom, Debbie!


----------



## Sean Rescue Mom

Aw Deb, I feel for ya. Poor Dena going through h**l.







Hope your regular vet comes back tomorrow and you don't get any late night scares. Please let us know if there are any changes.


----------



## marksmom3

Wow. I hope they can finally figure everything out and get Dena back to being a healthy, happy dog again.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

So is the berry thing a possibility for all of this? Or just today? 

Dena is going to have to go in a hamster ball if she keeps this up. 

So she's doing better?


----------



## WiscTiger

Dena darling, you don't need berries in your diet..... 

Man I feel so sorry for all of you, dogs and humans.

Come on Dena, you need to get better soon.

Val


----------



## valleydog

Really feel for you. We need good news here. Can't imagine your stress level. Hang in there and healing thoughts for Dena!


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
> 
> Dena is going to have to go in a hamster ball if she keeps this up.










Need some levity here!









I would agree PULL THE BUSH. You sure did not need this on top of the other stuff.


----------



## mspiker03

How is Dena doing this evening/night?


----------



## Clare

To both you and Dena!!!!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Will be thinking of you guys today!


----------



## Avamom

Any chance that whatever animal she ate that began all this, was also eating those berries...so she got the poison second hand the first time too??

Thinking of you guys...hope Dena is feeling better soon!!


----------



## Clare

> Originally Posted By: AvamomAny chance that whatever animal she ate that began all this, was also eating those berries...so she got the poison second hand the first time too??
> 
> Thinking of you guys...hope Dena is feeling better soon!!


oooh! Good point!!!!


----------



## GSDLoverII

> Originally Posted By: Clare
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: AvamomAny chance that whatever animal she ate that began all this, was also eating those berries...so she got the poison second hand the first time too??
> 
> Thinking of you guys...hope Dena is feeling better soon!!
> 
> 
> 
> oooh! Good point!!!!
Click to expand...

That's what i was thinking too.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

That is a good point.


----------



## valb

Sending beams of healing light Miss Dena's way...

And waiting...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: AvamomAny chance that whatever animal she ate that began all this, was also eating those berries...so she got the poison second hand the first time too??


I wish it were so easy, but no, I don't think so. Dr. Stanley did some more research, and didn't find anything that would relate to her anemia. There was a word he used that I don't remember, but he said it would cause her to dry out, and her mucous membranes are fine. I think she just found a couple berries on the ground as she went out the door and snarfed them up, and they caused digestive upset. Her digestive tract is definitely messed up - her stool has been soft for awhile now, and yesterday she had diarrhea, along with burping, bad gas, and rumbling tummy sounds. I'll mention that today, though.

We went to pick her up at 5:30 last night, and they had checked her packed cell volume again, and it dropped to the 15-17% range. He said we might want to have her spend the night at the emergency clinic so they could monitor her and do a transfusion and give her oxygen if necessary. We were stunned. Then he left the room and came back a few minutes later and said Dr Schuchman was on the phone, and that he was going to come down and he wanted us to bring Keefer in so he could do a transfusion. That's our regular doctor who owns the place, and it was his day off. 

By this time it was 6:30, Dr. Schuchmann lives about 40-45 minutes away. I stayed with Dena, and Tom went home to get Keef. The hospital was closed, so Dr. Stanley left before our doctor got there, but Robert, the tech, and another staffer waited, and got things set up. We were there 4 hours, and Keefer was a champ. He's a big baby at the vet's, and immediately dives under the couch as soon he gets there, but he let them take a little blood to do a PCV on him (32 - excellent), and give him a shot to sedate him. I stayed with Dena while they took Keefer into the treatment room, and they had Tom come help hold him, but apparently he was really good. They take it out of veins in the neck, so he's got two big shaved patches of fur.

Dena was very good for the transfusion, but he wants to do another one today. There were some technical difficulties (air in the line or something?) so they had to syringe the blood out of Keefer, and because it was such a PITA they stopped before they got a full bottle. Dr. Schuchman is going to bring a couple of his own dogs in to get more blood for her. I noticed that her belly still seemed big while she was on the table, and the doctor agreed, so after he finished we took her in the other room and did an ultrasound again. Now she does have some fluid in her abdomen, which he said is not unexpected. He tapped it, and there is a little blood in it, the fluid was a very pale pink. That could account for the dropping PCV, and is better news than if it was what he referred to as "frank blood", it just means that some blood is leaking out of her liver. Not a good thing by any means, but it should reabsorb, and maybe this will send us in a different direction for treatment, we go back in today at noon, so I guess we'll find out.


----------



## mspiker03

I've already said this a bunch, but I am really sorry you are going through all of this. I sure hope they figure this out soon.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Gosh this does not sound like fun anymore. What is frighteneing is that she keeps going up and down. 

Well hopefully you will have good news for us in a few hours. I keep checking this thread about 6 times a day now. 

Paws are crossed here for miss D.


----------



## GSDLoverII

HOLY CRAP!!!

Hang in there!


----------



## Avamom

Gosh, poor Dena...you and Tom must be so frazzled!!

What a brave boy Keefer was for his big sister, I hope his blood gets things going in the right direction.

I don't have any advice, just wanted to let you know we are thinking about you...all paws and fingers crossed in this household that the docs figure this out and Dena gets better soon! Sounds like you got a class A vets office!!!!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thanks again everyone I really appreciate the support. I took the day off today, turned off the alarm and slept as late as I could. I'm simply exhausted, and we may have a long afternoon & evening ahead of us again. I feel hung over, there's no other way to describe it.

Sinclair, I do feel like we have a great vet. He could easily have let Dr. Stanley send us to the emergency clinic, it's only about 15-20 minutes from there, and from our house, but he felt it was important enough to come in himself to take care of her on his day off. The guy has to be close to retirement, but he still works his butt off, and is so committed to helping her get through this. I just hope he can.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom I just hope he can.


Don't even think that- don't even......


----------



## marylou

I've been watching/reading this post - my thoughts are with your pup!


----------



## AK GSD

Boss sends thanks to Keefer for being brave and helping their half sister! He can also send some extra hair to cover those shaved areas if needed! 

Your in our thoughts,
Rich, Becky & Boss


----------



## WiscTiger

Cassidys Mom, pumping up the healting vibes for Dena.

I hope you don't mind if I post some links, (you know Val and her classroom).

First one has a nice breakdown on what they look for in a CBC
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=1474&articleid=987

Now since Dena's biggest problem right now is the anemia, I went and did some searching just for that info
As stated in the link above there are two types of anemia


> Quote:Anemias are further classified as either regenerative or nonregenerative. In the former, even though the number of red blood cells is lower than normal, the body is responding by releasing new reticulocytes into the circulation. In the nonregenerative anemia, there are no or very few immature RBC’s in the sample and the body continues to lose red blood cells, but no new ones are produced. A nonregenerative anemia is very, very serious and will quickly become life-threatening.


Has your Vet said if it is regerative or nonregerative?

Has your Vet said anything about bone marrow evaluation?

Sending you hugs. 

Val


----------



## kshort

OMG - I just read this entire thread. Debbie, just want you to know my thoughts and prayers are with you all... Sending lots and lots of healing thoughts to sweet Dena.


----------



## Kayla's Dad

I am so sorry that this keeps going up and down. Can not imagine the strain of all of it. Thank goodness, it sounds like you have such a terrific vet.

You guys keep your heads up and get your rest. Our thoughts and prayers continue for Dena.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Any more news? I wonder if they are home yet?


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Val, he didn't talk about regenerative or non-regenerative (or maybe he did and my brain is too fried to remember), but I do remember on one blood test, maybe it was last Saturday's, he pointed to something and said it indicated she was making new red blood cells. 

At one point the bone marrow thing was mentioned in passing as another test we could do, but he hasn't said anything about it since.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Kathy, I'm home, but Dena is still there. I got there at 12:30, and as usual they were slammed. I waited an hour for a room, I spoke to the doctor for a few minutes, and then they had me leave her there. There were a couple of things at work I had to do, a payroll tax deposit that is due today, and tomorrow's payroll, so I went in for a half hour, and now I'm done for the week.

I'm supposed to call at 4:30, and we'll see how she's doing and what the plan is. They didn't do a PCV while I was there, but they checked her temp and it was still normal.


----------



## tracyc

I've got nothing to add but more support coming from here too. There are a whole lotta people pulling for Dena. Take care of yourself. We're all thinking about you.


----------



## WiscTiger

Deb, that is a really good thing that she is making new red blood cells. I think the problem is right now not enough, but she is making them and that is good. 

I am glad you have such a good Vet. Since you are home, done at work, why don't you go try to lay down and take a nap before the Vet calls. You need some rest also, we don't need you getting sick also.

Val


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Well that is better news. Taking a nap is a good idea. Will just keep checking for news and keeping you guys in our thoughts and prayers.


----------



## DianaM

Crossing my fingers that some of Keef's blood is the kick in the rear that Dena needs to finally get better! What a saga. All this over a raw appetizer! I certainly hope Dena is a bit more discerning in the future with her diet plans.
















Get better, Dena.


----------



## 3K9Mom

Keef's blood should certainly give Dena the Zing! she needs.










Deb. Tom. Keefer. Dena. :







A virtual hug for you. 

And the kitties.









You're all in our thoughts and in our prayers.


----------



## Fodder

geez, i feel like i'm reading a script to a bad movie (with a happy ending of course). i hope dena knows how much love she's surrounded with and continues to fight thru this bizarre illness.

adding her (and you) to my prayer request list this evening at bible study...
















love the group hug emoticon 3k9mom! how appropriate.


----------



## Annikas Mom

Just got home from training and this is the first place I came!

I just want you to know that although I may not always reply, you are ALL in my thoughts every minute of every day!! I know all too well how draining this can be so please do try to get some rest while she is at the vet's office. 

A big scruff ruffle to Keefer for being such a good donor and gentle scritches to Miss Dena. I sure hope the transfusion gives her body the push it needs to start healing itself!


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Thanks so much everyone - I'm really trying to keep my emotions in check, and it's hard when I come on here and see how much you all care and are thinking about us. Tom has lost it several times, the first time last night when we were told to go get Keefer because she was getting a blood transfusion NOW, and then again when he came home from work today. We're both scared, but I won't let my mind go there yet. I'm not in denial - she's a very sick girl, but it ain't over till it's over, and if I have to, I'll deal with it when and if the time comes. In the meantime, I'm staying strong. 

I just spoke to the vet, but only for a minute, and he gave her another transfusion from one of his dogs. We pick her up in an hour, so he'll have more time to talk to us then. They are always SO busy.


----------



## Sean Rescue Mom

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI just spoke to the vet, but only for a minute, and he gave her another transfusion from one of his dogs.


Hope that does the trick, (fingers crossed). I'm so sorry Deb, this has been such a long, drawn out ordeal for all of you. Special thoughts and hugs go out to you from the midwest.


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Come on Dena!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Annikas Mom

I am sending you and Tom lots and lots of







and do me a favor and just hug each other and feel the strength in each other!!


----------



## AK GSD

Dena is fortunate to have you and your husband who both love and care for her so much. Maybe tonight you can bring her home and get her settled in for the evening, pour yourselves a nightcap (for medicinal purposes) and get some rest yourselves. Hopefully everything will look brighter for you in the morning with a fresh start.


----------



## mspiker03

Updates?


----------



## doggonefool

Hugs to you and Tom, Deb. Sorry I just found all this out. I tried calling, and knew that I could find out what's going on here. And I am so sorry that you are going through all of this. We love our puppers and give them the best we can; you are going way beyond the best with Dena and the results just have to be positive, soon.

When Whimsey was so sick, one of the things that worked well to get her to eat was Safeway's Rotisserie Chicken. Also gave her DanActive with Probiotics in it...Vanilla was her favorite. She was also on Doxy for a while, which worked some.

I just wanted you to know that I am here with everyone else sending love and hugs to you and Tom and your pups and hoping for the best!


----------



## kelso

Lots of thoughts and prayers for you guys.
Wishing sweet Dena the best.
And what a good brother Keefer is, and sounds like Dena is in excellent hands

thinking of you all lots


----------



## BowWowMeow

Debbie,

I am in Syracuse at a conference and checked in here and almost fell out of the bed when I saw what was going on.









I am very worried for Dena and will be sending healing thoughts out there. 

Best to you and to Tom and Keef,


----------



## 3K9Mom

Deb, how often can Keef give blood? Can blood be shipped to you, if more is needed, which it won't be, but if it were? I know of a handsome guy that's really healthy, and I know of a place that blood could be drawn. I know blood can be frozen. Presumably it could be fed-ex'd.

Do dogs (esp of the same breed) have the same kind of blood? (Why don't I know this?) Are these things done? Could they be, if necessary? 

Talk to your vet. If you need and if it's possible, let me know.


----------



## Clare

C'mon Dena!!!!

Sending healing vibes, thoughts and prayers from Sasha and Wolfgang!

You KNOW when this is all over Keefer going to be "Dena - I gave you MY blood - you can give me that treat!!!!"


----------



## Qyn

I've avoided posting but I'm reading everytime I'm on and I'm looking forward to reading that she has recovered. Hugs and best wishes.


----------



## doggonefool

I would guess that dog transfusions have to be typed similar to humans? I can bring my pack out to see if anyone is compatible. More hugs your way...


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Jeez, I am really sorry that this is still going on. Your vet office sounds incredible, but even so, I am wondering if they could consult with UCD (if they haven't already) in the hopes that they had seen and treated something like this (do we even know what it is-I am so into labels for things it is insane). This is very concerning. I don't even know what to say-please get better Dena for your mom, dad, brother (and even the kitties).


----------



## LisaT

Cassidy's Mom,

I can't find the protocol that I was referring to -- please call Dr. Dodd's for anemia protocol....her contact info is here: http://www.hemopet.org/contact.html and she is very good about talking to folks. Here is another description of how to contact (Patrice is on the tick list): http://www.vetnet.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?run...022423075821660

Here's a webpage that has an example of different drug coctail:
http://www.vetnet.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?run...8-10-0106:12:46


----------



## WiscTiger

Lisa, would it by chance be listed on University of WI?

Val


----------



## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> Do dogs (esp of the same breed) have the same kind of blood? (Why don't I know this?)


I don't think it is that simple. I DO know that Greyhounds are used a LOT as blood donors for all breeds. Seems like maybe they tend to have a "universal" type of blood. (Kind of like me, I have o-neg, mine can be given to anyone. )


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: 3K9MomDeb, how often can Keef give blood? Can blood be shipped to you, if more is needed, which it won't be, but if it were? I know of a handsome guy that's really healthy, and I know of a place that blood could be drawn. I know blood can be frozen. Presumably it could be fed-ex'd.
> 
> Do dogs (esp of the same breed) have the same kind of blood? (Why don't I know this?) Are these things done? Could they be, if necessary?
> 
> Talk to your vet. If you need and if it's possible, let me know.


I'm not sure how often Keef can give blood, but my vet has several dogs of his own. He brought one in yesterday for her transfusion, and he's going to bring another in on Saturday. 

Samuel has also been kind enough to offer Kayla, and he's nearby, so if it comes to that we'll be taking him up on the offer.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: doggonefoolI would guess that dog transfusions have to be typed similar to humans? I can bring my pack out to see if anyone is compatible. More hugs your way...


Carol, I thought so too, but apparently not. With cats you have to be more careful, but not so much with dogs. Thanks for your support, and your pack will go on my list of potential donors if we need them.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANJeez, I am really sorry that this is still going on. Your vet office sounds incredible, but even so, I am wondering if they could consult with UCD (if they haven't already) in the hopes that they had seen and treated something like this (do we even know what it is-I am so into labels for things it is insane). This is very concerning. I don't even know what to say-please get better Dena for your mom, dad, brother (and even the kitties).


Jean, I asked him yesterday about taking her to Davis, and he said sometimes you get someone good, sometimes you don't. The emergency clinic here is at Bay Area Veterinary Specialists, and he's going to call an internist there to see if there are any potential directions we haven't covered. 

Tom's cousin and wife are also veterinarians, Nate is large animal, Sarah is small animal. They live in Sonoma County, and we called them while we were at the vet's office on Wednesday night waiting for Dr. Schuchman to get there. They said these sorts of cases are notoriously difficult, which is also what my vet has been saying, calling it a puzzle, and very complicated. We're pretty sure it's an autoimmune hemolytic anemia, but it could be caused by a variety of things, and we'll probably never know exactly how it happened. I've been doing some reading (thanks Lisa!), and some dogs make it, some don't, some respond to some drugs and treatments, others to different ones. My vet himself has said that he's seen dogs recover from things like this, and AIHA is one of the very first possibilities he mentioned when the red cell count was found to be low. The Coombs test was for that, and she was negative, but some dogs will test negative and still have it.


----------



## mspiker03

Any updates from her appointment last night? Today?

Wish we were closer to help out....


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: LisaTCassidy's Mom,
> 
> I can't find the protocol that I was referring to -- please call Dr. Dodd's for anemia protocol....her contact info is here: http://www.hemopet.org/contact.html and she is very good about talking to folks. Here is another description of how to contact (Patrice is on the tick list): http://www.vetnet.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?run...022423075821660
> 
> Here's a webpage that has an example of different drug cocktail:
> http://www.vetnet.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?run...8-10-0106:12:46


Lisa, I followed some links from what you sent me, and was able to find it. I printed it out and will bring it with me today, we go in at 11:45. My vet is off, we'll be seeing Dr. Harika. They gave her another transfusion yesterday, and her PCV was 18%, so he wants to do one more Saturday. She also got a couple of injections, but I don't remember what they were, I'll ask today. They also gave her more fluids.

Her temperature was normal, and she had a fairly normal poop last night after not going since mid-day on Wednesday. This morning she's very weak, and she had diarrhea. She refused dinner last night and breakfast this morning, and is not even interested in the cheese wrapped pills and supplements. Even when she had no interest in food, she was eagerly waiting for her cheese. This morning it took 3 tries to cram them down her throat because she kept spitting them out. She is thirsty, and will drink water.


----------



## WiscTiger

Deb, I am so sorry I really don't know what to say. We are all here sending healing thoughts for Dena.

Since Dena is still thirsty How about making up some nice chicken broth. I like home made, not the stuff from the store, not crazy about sodium loads when dealing with a sick dog. While broth isn't the most nutritious it gives her some nutrients. 

Val


----------



## LisaT

Have all antibiotics been stopped? If so, any discussion of resuming the doxy?

This whole ordeal is just terrible. I'm so sorry.


----------



## tspiker03

Hope everything is going ok with Dena. We've been sending out the healing vibes down here.


----------



## marylou

I wonder if she would drink some Pedialight?


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

I agree about this being an ordeal. I am hoping she turns around I don't want to think her not coming around.


----------



## Heidigsd

> Quote:How about making up some nice chicken broth.


I managed to keep Heidi hydrated with chicken broth last year when she was so sick from the MRSA treatment and didn't want to ear or drink. At first I used the canned broth because I needed something fast (fat free, low sodium) but I made my own after that. Even putting just a little in her water made her want to drink more...you just can't let it sit out like water.

This just seems like a really bad dream. Dena just has to get better, she just has too.

Michaela


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

I'm back. Dena, of course, is still there. Dr. Harika called Dr. Schuchman, who asked to speak to me, and he told me what they're going to do. Her temp was normal when I took it this morning, and they ran a PCV. She's holding at 18%, which was where she was after yesterday's transfusion. The injections she got on Wednesday and Thursday were vinchristine, which is supposed to stimulate the bone marrow to make red blood cells. 

They're going to do more blood work to check her liver and kidney enzymes. They had been hesitant to take blood too often because her PCV had been so low and dropping, but now that it appears stable for the moment they want to check her again. They're also going to do some more x-rays since there's definitely still a lot of fluid in her abdomen. I discussed the doxy with Dr. Harika, and it's his feeling that we should put her back on antibiotics. I asked about the dose, and he said we could go up to two 100 mg capsules twice a day. The usual dose for her weight would be about 165 mgs twice a day, so he agreed that one capsule twice a day might not be enough. He was also going to give her another injection of Baytril, and she'll be getting a steroid injection too.


----------



## valb

Poor Dena!! All those needle sticks!! Owies!! I just hope she starts
a real turnaround and soon!!

How is she doing as far as her mood? 

Sierra sends her Cousin Dena Woofs!


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

It sounds as if she is not out of the woods yet but may be getting ready to turn the corner back!

I have been wondering about her blood chem and glad they are going to run tests - as long as she can handle it.


----------



## WiscTiger

Deb hugs to you and your hubby, you guys have to be exahusted and emotionally numb.

Dena, littel girl, keep fighting the war isn't over yet. The battles have been going back and forth, but keep fighting sweetie. 

I am glad she is back on the ABX and as much as I dislike steriods (more than I dislike ABX) some times there is a need for them.

Hang in there you guys.

Val


----------



## moei

Sending hugs and positive energy to







Dena,







you and your DH.


----------



## doggonefool

[/quote] Her temperature was normal, and she had a fairly normal poop last night after not going since mid-day on Wednesday. This morning she's very weak, and she had diarrhea. She refused dinner last night and breakfast this morning, and is not even interested in the cheese wrapped pills and supplements. Even when she had no interest in food, she was eagerly waiting for her cheese. This morning it took 3 tries to cram them down her throat because she kept spitting them out. She is thirsty, and will drink water.[/quote] 

Some of the meds that Whimsey was on were pretty large pills, and she was so weak and dry mouthed that she was choking on them. I used mortar and pestle to powder them, and added liquid, usually the Danactive or chicken broth, then syringed it to the back of her throat. That was a lot easier for both of us than forcing them...


----------



## AK GSD

If you have not tried it before, what has always worked for us getting pills down our dogs is sour cream. It may not be the best thing to feed them but when they spit out meatballs or cheeseballs and they need their meds you can get desperate. We put maybe a tablespoon on our fingertips that they lick off with the pill and for some reason they act like it is a treat.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Just checking in on Dena. Many hugs to all of you. We're all pulling for you Dena!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You take care, Deb. This is a nightmare.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Now she's vomiting. Mass quantities of brown liquid. I don't know what it is since she hasn't eaten anything since yesterday morning. Getting meds and supplements in her now is a moot point. When we picked her up this evening they had not done the blood test, they're going to do it tomorrow instead, but the x-rays did not show any fluid in the lungs, which was a concern. She got her steroid and an anti-nausea injection. We questioned that since she hadn't been vomiting, but the doctor said she vomited while she was there. And we realized that last night she did a little bit too. There was a small amount of brown liquid where she'd been laying twice during the evening, but since at that point she hadn't had a bowel movement, I though it was some leakage from her bowels because it looked like diarrhea. But I think it must have been vomit since this looks like liquid diarrhea too. Each time she got up and moved and we saw it on the floor, so we never actually saw it come out of her.

She vomited in the car on the way home, and then again here in the office. I just called our vet at home a few minutes ago and he said see how she does in the next hour, and if it continues he'll meet us at the clinic. She vomited twice more in the next 10 minutes, so I called him back, and he'll be there at 8:00 tonight.


----------



## Barb E

Oh man, is there anything I can do from Oregon???????


----------



## Annikas Mom

Just checking in...

All I can add is my healing vibs for sweet, sweet Dena. My heart aches for you and Tom, it is so difficult when they are sick and can't tell us what they are feeling...

You are all in my prayers...


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Oh my gosh. Is there any chance she ate any of her feces? Poop eaters will vomit some pretty foul things and if she hasn't been eating and then had some poop (while in a kennel at the vet office?) it could come out in a very nasty form. 

Please know we are thinking of all of you.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Massie, my first dog, vomited that brown stuff--it looked like liquid poop. I always thought it was from somethign she ate but then it turned out she had a stomach ulcer. She did is so much that I got used to it. But she wasn't already sick when it happened. 

I can only imagine that in Dena's case this is a reaction to all of the meds she's getting or one of the meds she's getting?


----------



## Barb E

I can't help it, I keep thinking poison from the rodent she ate.


----------



## BowWowMeow

It would have worked it's way through her system by now, no? I've seen dogs who ingested poison and it's very quick to affect them.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Is that when they do the megadoses of Vitamin K? (sorry to go off topic-I remember getting an e-mail from someone asking if we could donate to their dog to get K and I think it was for that-or antifreeze-or antifreeze is alcohol...)

Please take care you guys.


----------



## Annikas Mom

Yes Jean, they we do use Vit K in dogs that have ate rat poison...

You know Barb, you could be on to something because she has been anemic since the onset and if it was a low dose of poison (it had already been digested by the varmit she ate)... 

I have dried blood as the "brown" color of her vomit or feces due to a blockage or an ulcer from all the meds going through my head but only the dried blood explains the anemia...

{{4 letter word}} we have got to figure out what is going on!!!

Cyber hugs to you guys!


----------



## Barb E

Ruth- I think it would depend on the type and amount. It just seems odd that she ate the "something" though of course it could be simple coincidence in the timing.

Jean-Yes for one of the types you do give Vitamin K


----------



## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: Annikas MomI have dried blood as the "brown" color of her vomit


That was one of the things that brought my brain back to poison.

I just wish I could do something


----------



## Annikas Mom

> Originally Posted By: Barb E
> I just wish I could do something


Me too, Barb


----------



## BJDimock

Hey. Have just read the entire thread, and is sounding very near to my girl with Lupus. She also tested neg for antiimmune antibodies, and was a bit of a puzzler until my very close friend and co-worker (A vet) started her on azathiaprine. Her PCV was routinely at 14% during crises times. Lupus is not a disease that is commly reported in GSD, although it is found in a few strains. The vomit color could be her bleeding, dogs with lupus generally have very low platlet counts, therefore they can not clot. If you don't control it, they bleed from the membranes they can bleed from. Katchia always seemed to bleed from her intestines. The very first indication we had was on her CBC, I couldn't detect any platlets. When I sent it to the lab, thinking I was wrong, they only found 2 on the whole microscope slide. I am hoping from the bottom of my heart that I am not right, and that you're girl is doing so much better now. It just struck a chord in my memory.


----------



## mspiker03

> Originally Posted By: Annikas Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Barb E
> I just wish I could do something
> 
> 
> 
> Me too, Barb
Click to expand...

Me three (well, and add 4, 5, and 6 for Leyna, Levi and DH)


----------



## Kayla's Dad

Debbie and Tom, hang in there. Our hearts and thoughts are with all of you. 

If there's anything you need, we're here. Let us know. You guys need to get some relief and rest. Can't think of what this is doing to you guys. 

Hope it gets better tonight and things work out well.


----------



## kshort

Sending as many good and healing thoughts as I can push that way....


----------



## hudak004

Oh my, just saw this. No advice to offer but please know Im thinking of you guys, Im so sorry I cant imagine what you are going through, I hope you get some answers soon... and good ones! Big hugs to miss beautiful Dena girl. Please take care.


----------



## BJDimock

Please let us know how she's doing! Sending good thoughts to Dena now!!!


----------



## marksmom3

Get well Dena!!


----------



## Barb E

I have to hit the sack, pitfalls of having a major vendor in Central time zone is I have to be in the office by 7:00 am for a special call tomorrow.

Know I'm zooming the thoughts south along with a zillion cyber hugs!!


----------



## djpohn

There are different types of poisen bait now, some are slow acting and take a longer time to clear the dog or cats systems. I still think it may be poison or possibly a perforation somewhere that is causing her to become septic. 

The vomitting brown stuff could be food that has been sitting in her stomach. I had a corgi who sustained a near fatal bite wound to his neck. He was in the hospital for almost a week and hadn't eaten anything and suddenly threw up green beans that had been sitting in his stomach since the day he was attacked.

Have they checked her bone marrow?

Prayers are coming up to Dena and your family from San Diego.


----------



## mspiker03

Off to bed soon...but sending more positive thoughts throughout the night! 

Take care! More hugs to you all up North!


----------



## Karin

I'm so sorry to hear that Dena still isn't doing well. I hope they can figure out what is wrong with her. I second the recommendation for UC Davis for illnesses that are more mysterious and hard to figure out. We took our previous dog, Sheba, to Davis when she had grand mal seizures and nobody could figure out what was wrong with her (she had a benign brain tumor, which we had removed and she recovered beautifully) and then a year later when she had acute lymphoblastic leukemia (unfortunately, we lost her quickly from that disease). They were wonderful--very knowledgeable, and very kind as well.

It sounds like you have a lot of confidence in your current doctors, but if you feel that you need to take additional steps, Davis might be another option for you if you need it.

I just hope she starts feeling better soon. I'm really sorry to hear that she's going through this and I feel so bad for you and Tom and what you're going through. Dave and I know that feeling all too well. Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you, and we hope she is doing better tomorrow.


----------



## 3K9Mom

I keep thinking about Davis too. I know you love and trust your vets (that's how I feel about my vet too). And it sounds like they're very knowledgeable and competent. 

But sometimes...and this comes from my years in the medical world...I've learned that it just takes that one person to look at a case with fresh eyes to say "hey. I bet it's this." We're human. We keep looking at the same case and running the same things over and over in our heads and try to figure out what we missed, what else could it be. And a new person comes in from a whole new perspective because they haven't been living with the situation for days/months/years. It' s not about who is more intelligent, capable or informed. It's all about fresh eyes. 

Sigh. Davis is a drive though. I know that. And you've been through so much to be commuting back and forth in that traffic up I-80. Ugh.

Poor Dena. She's so good, so sweet. She's been through so much. Dang it.









If I can help, say the word.... but you know that.


----------



## valb

Couldn't sleep, came here to say thinking of Dena and all of you
and hoping you all find strength to get through this terrible time.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Just checking in this morning from Jeanspackistan-they are all pulling for Dena.


----------



## DianaM

Good grief, I can't believe all this is going on. This is very upsetting. Hang in there, you are doing an EXEMPLARY job with her. I agree with getting her into Davis. I think she needs a larger knowledge base at this point and if anything it would be UC Davis.

Renji and I are crossing fingers and paws for Dena!


----------



## balakai

I've been following this thread but haven't posted before--my pack and I are thinking of Dena and her family. Yoda sends kisses--he LOVES big GSDs, and terrier kisses are super medicine!









~Kristin


----------



## Kayla's Dad

Waking up thinking about Dena and you guys. Hope you are all home sleeping and getting some rest.

Let us know how things went and how they're going when you can.

You are all in our thoughts.


----------



## WiscTiger

Oh Deb, I really can't imagine how you guys are feeling.

Deb, later today I will dig through DeeDee's records, a few years ago she had some hemorrhagic thing going on, the Vet at that time didn't have a name for it but a Protocol that worked, it was a combination of 3 antibiotics and a human drug they give people with bleeding ulcers. Not saying this is the same, but I wanted to get the name of the drug for the ulcers.

Dena darling, keep up the good fight. The Vet are working so hard trying to help. Oh Dena in case you can't feel this you have lots and lots of cyber friends in your corner also.

Val


----------



## GSDLoverII

I am praying for good news about Dena today. 
PLEASE GOD


----------



## Avamom

Thinking about Dena and family today.....keep checking hoping for good news!!!

Sending positive thoughts to CA!!


----------



## DianaM

Am I the only one who's stalking the board, waiting for the instant that a Dena update pops up? Okay it's about 8am their time, hopefully something SOON..

We need a nail-biting smiley.


----------



## doggonefool

> Originally Posted By: DianaMAm I the only one who's stalking the board, waiting for the instant that a Dena update pops up? Okay it's about 8am their time, hopefully something SOON..
> 
> We need a nail-biting smiley.


I don't think that you're the only stalker, I too have been stalking and praying and hoping for the best!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I am working today but keep coming to this thread, but hoping no news is good news and that she's stablizing.


----------



## valb

> Originally Posted By: DianaMAm I the only one who's stalking the board, waiting for the instant that a Dena update pops up? Okay it's about 8am their time, hopefully something SOON..
> 
> We need a nail-biting smiley.


You're not the only one... I can't really get my mind on anything
else... nothing seems important but this.

I just keep believing in Dena's youth and health and that she
will be able to get on top of this...


----------



## DianaM

I am visualizing future threads of Dena and Keefer beach outings.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

She's gone. We brought her home at 10:00 last night, she vomited once more just before midnight, we went to bed, and when Tom got up at 6:00 this morning she was dead. I had a feeling last night even before we brought her in that she wouldn't last the night. She had declined so much since Thursday. Her poor body just gave up.


----------



## DianaM

OMG DEBBIE NO. I'm in shock. I really can't believe this. Everything in me just stopped with those two words. 

Dena, you're free of whatever took you but know that we'll all miss you, even those who never had the pleasure of meeting you. One day when we're both over the bridge, maybe I'll have the pleasure of meeting you. I'm so sorry. I wish I could say more but the news ground me to a halt. Just.. so sorry. This is heartbreaking.


----------



## Annikas Mom

Oh Deb...words seem so worthless at this time, I am so, so sorry you all had to go through this. My thoughts are with you, Tom, Keefer and the kitties...


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

OMG OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!

This is horrible. I AM SO SO SO SO Sorry..

And was very afraid for it yesterday. 

(((((((((((((((Deb and Tom))))))))))))))))

Crying too hard to type.


----------



## DianaM

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=818486


----------



## Kayos and Havoc

Pleas have a necropsy done. She was too young. God how awful.


----------



## doggonefool

Oh Debbie, my heart is breaking for you and Tom. The knowledge that Dena has crossed the rainbow bridge and is there playing with all of our furbabies is little consolation for the ache in your hearts. With tears in my eyes and love for you and Tom, I send out all that I can to help you. Hugs to you all


----------



## GSD07

OMG, I just can't believe this, that's horrible!!! I am so so sorry for you and my thoughts are with you. Suddently all my problems with my own dogs became so little and unimportant... Dena was my favorite dog on this board, such a sunny happy wonderful personality...

I'm still in shock and can't believe this. I'm so sorry Debbie..


----------



## Skye'sMom

I am so sorry to hear about Dena. Life is so unfair. Run free sweet Dena - go with your family's love.


----------



## valb

This whole thread I kept reading and hoping to see a post that 
she was better and now I read the post that I dreaded.

A sad, sad day. And for many to come. Paul shares my grief...
and our condolences go out to Dena's family, both there at home
and right here on this board.

What a loss for us all.


----------



## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomShe's gone. We brought her home at 10:00 last night, she vomited once more just before midnight, we went to bed, and when Tom got up at 6:00 this morning she was dead. I had a feeling last night even before we brought her in that she wouldn't last the night. She had declined so much since Thursday. Her poor body just gave up.


OMG, I am so very sorry, I think a piece of my heart just broke, I can only imagine what yours are doing.


----------



## WiscTiger

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=818486


----------

