# Reading a pedigree: you know, actually reading it...



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

GSDElsa's post this morning about abstracting specific behaviors/traits out of a pedigree pairing got me thinking about pedigrees in general. Often when I see some of the more seasoned people respond and critique a pedigree, they mention how they "saw _xyz _dog immediately." 

There must be a "proper" approach to investigating a pedigree. Do I just start with the first generation, and follow the sire's line first sticking to the male lineage? Do I start at the oldest generations, literally scanning the 4th generation column vertically for both the dam and sire?

I mean- there must be an actual technique...

Further- what are you actually looking for? I'm amazed (actually- I'm quite blown away!) by how many dogs some of you seem to not just recognize, but actually describe in great detail. Not even just that dog, but that dog's progeny as well! "_xyz_ was known for producing excellent hardness without too much civil," or "_abc_ was a phenomenal hip improver with very few of her progeny ever scoring below OFA Good."

So when I am reading a pedigree- I should:


Use some technique to follow the "tree" (start at left, start at right, follow sires, follow dams, etc)
Look for 'key' dogs (how do I know what a 'key' dog is?)

Any tips?


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I think they all use magic.

The pedigree experts on here are simply amazing.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think there is more to it than the pedigree, you have to have extensive knowledge of the dogs and how they have produced in various combinations and I think that is something that just comes with time and experience. For example I know of one dog that has produced some awesome progeny and others that have been total duds or just a hot mess, overly sharp/aggressive, histories of bites (outside of normal SchH work). There must be something to how this dog's genes are combined with others that either makes an awesome dog or a huge liability. I don't have the back-knowledge of the other lines/dogs/combos so I simply avoid this dog when looking for a puppy.

One thing I look at is linebreeding but not just the linebreeding that the pedigree database will show you. Sometimes the linebreeding is minimal but if you dig farther back you see that the minimal linebreeding is on dogs that were themselves heavily linebred and so on so I like to look much farther back than the first 3-4 generations.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very good question! 
First you have to accept there is any value to pedigree reading....for some people the dogs is what it is, (without consideration to the fact that usually the dog is one of 5 or6 in a litter and carries the same traits as the others except recessively), and for others its a combination, while others rely on pedigree pretty exclusively.
In answer to your question, IMO, the way you read a pedigree is reliant upon your knowledgebase of the breed, the dogs, the dog's performance, the dog's structure, and the dog's temperament. When you have a fairly concrete idea about all those aspects, both collectively(breed, structure, and temperament), and individually(dogs, temperament, and structure), then you have the foundation to ANALYZE the pedigree. Of course historical knowledge on production and performance in conjunction with the basic tenets of genetics helps a lot...lol.
Now this may be too complicated an explanation, but the really good pedigree people have these tools or ACCESS to this information in starting to figure things out. 
As to how you take this information and apply it. This is also based on knowledgebase....because with many dogs or combinations you start at a certain "given" point and progress from there. The problem is people have a hard time dropping their likes, which often COLORS the areas they place the focus on the dog to assess the quality of the dog. To truly read pedigrees well, you have knowledge of the development of the siblings or at least an inkling of the siblings to know if the given structure or performance of the individual dog is consistent with that litter and thus representative of the breeding. 
There's plenty more, For Me, but the more i write the more I think of....and I am pretty sure most people want the "fast foods" answer to this question.
One last thing, it is also important to know that the breed is made up of four different dogs with different traits attached to each....these traits are completely intermingled these days, but they are part of the breed and will never be bred out as long as the breed is purebred. This is important in understanding probabilites in the occurrence or reoccurrence of certain traits when pairing two dogs together.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

cliffson1 said:


> Very good question!


Thanks, but it sounds like this is a question that is most easily answered only with "it comes with _years_ of experience- and not much you do will help you learn to read pedigrees without the years of experience..." Which honestly, that's pretty much what I expected to hear.

With that said, you also commented:


cliffson1 said:


> One last thing, it is also important to know that the breed is made up of four different dogs with different traits attached to each....these traits are completely intermingled these days, but they are part of the breed and will never be bred out as long as the breed is purebred. This is important in understanding probabilites in the occurrence or reoccurrence of certain traits when pairing two dogs together.


...I did _not_ know that. Can you share who the four dogs are and what their traits are? (Not intending to be a loaded question. Please don't feel the need to write a book... unless of course you want to!)


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Personally, I start in the fourth or fifth Generation, then I look back up until the 8-10th Generation before I work my way to the front. 

Key dogs are dogs that are well known. In working line that would be Fero. Some people don't want Fero in the Pedigree so if they see Fero vom Zeutner Himmelreich, they disregard the dog without looking any further. 

Yoschi, Troll, Torro, Gildo, Olko, Orry, Orlie, Askia, Pike, Asko, Umsa... those are just a few key names I am looking for. If you see any of those names within five generations you know whats in the back already and you can predict what the dog could be like. 

So If I am looking for a dog, I am looking at the pedigrees and seek out what I want in my dog. Then I go there and look at the dog itself and if it doesn't have what I want in the dog, i move on. 

However, it is important to keep an open mind. Sometimes you find what you want in the lesser known pedigrees. Pedigrees is mainly what sells the dogs, at least that is why breeders go to the champion dogs, those champions have a name and the breeders believe that they have a better chance in selling the puppies when they sired the litter with them. Sometimes it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the dog itself but it's the names in the pedigrees that matters. ESPECIALLY in the show line world. 




wildo said:


> GSDElsa's post this morning about abstracting specific behaviors/traits out of a pedigree pairing got me thinking about pedigrees in general. Often when I see some of the more seasoned people respond and critique a pedigree, they mention how they "saw _xyz _dog immediately."
> 
> There must be a "proper" approach to investigating a pedigree. Do I just start with the first generation, and follow the sire's line first sticking to the male lineage? Do I start at the oldest generations, literally scanning the 4th generation column vertically for both the dam and sire?
> 
> ...


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Let me tell you how a kindergartner does it who's only learning to read pedigrees for her personal future needs. 

When I meets a dog I like (not just seeing a picture on the internet), I try to get my hands on its pedigree. I _usually_ don't pay much attention to the parents because I'm not likely to know anything about them. I read through the names of the grandparents back to the 6th generation. If I'm back in the 5th or sixth generation and I see a kennel name that rings a bell, I'll look back a bit farther to see if there are any dogs I recognize. I read downward, reading both parents, then back to the grandparents, then all the great-grandparents, etc. I try to form connections between the dogs that may not be readily available on a mating test. Maybe the dog isn't exactly linebred, but _these_ two dogs are first cousins and _those_ don't have the same parents or grandparents but they have all the same great-grandparents.. . 

I'll talk to the owner to find out more about the dog. I might ask someone who knows, to tell me about the pedigree. Then I file all this away in a file cabinet in my head marked "Dogs." 

Then maybe later I'll see somebody on the forums who has a dog who is closely related to the dog I was looking at. I'll shoot a PM to the owner to see what their impressions of that dog are, its health and temperament etc. Then I file that away. 

I'm starting to build in my head a database of dogs I like, what ancestors they have in common, what the offspring looks like and acts like on the ground.

Hopefully in this fashion I'll be an expert on what I like in 4 or 5 years when it's time for another puppy. When it comes to what *you* like, you're on your own.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I think the easiest way to even START with this process is to pinpoint the widely used dogs and go from there. Find what they are and are not known for...this can vary a lot, but just the general traits. Then when you see GSD's working--be nosey...ask who the parents are. Watch them work...take mental or written notes about things you're seeing...consider how training has played a part...then go home and look it up. See where the behaviors or nuances might come from. 

I'm definitely still in kindergarte, but that's where I started learning. Internet research and videos to get an idea, then go watch dogs in different venues, etc.

It's funny...a trainer I work with has a dog who was/is very nice but had to retire early because of a back injury and is now a house dog. This dog's father is the trainers former competition dog. There is this funny "air kiss" thing that this dog does...I guess his dad did it too...and a bunch of the offspring of either the dog or his father do it too. Not a trait that has anything to do with workability, obviously...but it's really interesting to me that a slew of dogs owned by different people over 3 generations all have this silly mannerism.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Also, there was a litter not to long ago and it is quite interesting to see and talk to people that have the pups out of the same litter and you hear that they all have pretty much the same issues and/or traits.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I start by looking at the mother lines and not the sire lines. I want to see females that produced and are out of producers and follow the strong working lines back to the breed foundation. I look at the four females in the 3rd generation and work back from them. If you look at how the breed was developed, for the most part, they bred the females from the old working blood to the more showy/typey dogs. Even when you look at some of the older herding (NOT ALL) kennels, like Kirschental, you will see they maintained their working ability through the females even when breeding into the show lines. The breed was founded on strong females. My way of looking at pedigrees comes from successful horse and cattle breeding. 

I also look at the males, especially the males that sired those females. Then the main sire line and then, for me probably the least important, the sire line of the mother's father. 

All in all I am looking for balance and for dogs that produce what I want to own, work and, in the future, breed. 

Unfortunately what Cliff says is true. This is not something you do without experience and that experience comes from working dogs. Of course you also have to have an understanding of what the GSD is supposed to be. Even if you talk to people who have been in the breed for generations you still must have practical experience to fully comprehend what they are telling you.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Just a thought - a "purebred" dog that is built upon 4 different bloodtypes in and of itself will lead to a wide diversity in the "purebred" dog. The integration of 4 distinct blood lines makes the breeding of a German shepherd a challenge. Contrary to what some may think, I wasn't around when Max created this breed; but as a student of the breed I think Max intentionally combined the distinct bloodlines trying to create a multipurpose dog. So in todays world, if a breeder increases the percentage of a certain bloodline from the original 4, his litters have a good chance of exhibiting the characteristics/traits of that given line. For example, German shepherd dog that are outstanding in the sports area should carry a higher concentration of the Thuringer bloodline for it was these dogs that were know to be fast, and very protective and used by the wealthy to protect their stables from thieves and their large expanse of land from poachers. On the other hand, if a person were more interested in a larger, slower to anger and bite dog, then they should look for dams and sires that have a higher concentration of Swabian blood as was found in the farm shepherds in the Wuerttemberg region of Germany - these were the farm dogs that worked all day protecting and herding sheep.


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I keep hearing about the Thuringers and Swabians, what are the other two?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

So here is a question. I sure don't have a copy of The Genetic History book by Malcolm Willis and I was wondering if anyone was going to bring it up to date? That would be a valuable resource I would think. I know Bruce Brisson has written a number of articles (and of course all those old charts totally confuse me)-I do have Susan Barwig's book and that has been very helpful. Most of the more recent books seem to focus on the showlines.

So I am the kind of newbie that says....what am I seeing working? Kind of how I rekindled my interest in Czech dogs after some initial negative experiences is I kept seeing dogs with certain Czech dogs as well as certain West German dogs show up a lot in the pedigrees of SAR dogs (I would ask, but to be honest, most SAR people and most police don't really know).

I am in pre-K, btw and have to ask others about specific pedigrees.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> I am in pre-K, btw and have to ask others about specific pedigrees.


So do I.

I've been accused of wanting things "handed to me" in regards to pedigrees, and that is not the case. I do not know how to get the information I'm seeking about pedigrees without asking others, because I was not around when some of the lines I'm interested in were really out there. I did not meet those dogs...never seen anything of them aside from pictures.

I know ASL pedigrees most, I do "ok" with GSL peds, and I really, really struggle with all working line pedigrees. I recognize names, and remember certain things said about them, but as a whole, I am extremely confused as to how to most efficiently read their pedigrees.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've been around a lot of dogs as a child. I've seen most of these dogs work but did not understand what to look for so my picture is blurry and I do have to ask my parents just everybody else has to ask their mentors. 

It has nothing to do with getting it handed, how else are you supposed to learn if not from a teacher?


----------



## DaveWallerCB (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm sure glad you started this thread Willy!

It's answered some questions I had and created new questions.

I love research and don't want anything "handed to me", but would love to know where to look to educate myself.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> how else are you supposed to learn if not from a teacher?


That's what I asked xD


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Liesje said:


> For example* I know of one dog that has produced some awesome progeny* and others that have been total duds .


Could you name the dog? Maybe he/she is in some of our
dogs' pedigrees and that would be nice to know.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sorry, I meant 4 types of dogs started the breed...Swabian sheepdog, Swabian protection dog, Wurtemburg sheepdog, and Thurigian "trophy dog".
These dogs had different body types, traits, structure, temperament, coats, colors, types of ears, and many other things. This is why things such as weak ears, ears not standing, long coats, wooly type coats, big heads, narrow heads, big boned dogs, lithe fast dogs, long dogs, short compact dogs will al arise at a given point in a litter.
When you start linebreeding for extended periods of time on certain types, the negatives and desired traits are enhanced to a degree as to bring imbalance. Where is the imbalance????, often it stems from too much of the traits of the foundation dogs that are heavily linebred on. 
So in reading a pedigree, you have to know what the dog is basically made up of; to make a good decision as to the compliment you need or are looking at.
Sidenote: How many times have you seen breeders look at a nice dog in person or a book, see that he has a nice croup and their dog doesn't have a good croup and then breed to the dog to improve the croup??? Suppose you were to look at 4 out of 5 of the sisters and brothers of the dog bred to to improve the croup, and see they have bad croups????...do you think that dog will improve the croups in the resulting litter??? This is how shallow many TOP breeders are in making decisions for breeding their dogs. 
There's a lot to analyzing a pedigree...if you have never worked a dog extensively...it is difficult to even recognize the development or lack of presence of working traits. This is one of the benefits to titling a dog in Europe, the ordinary breeder at least understands when the working traits are out of balance....if they care. A good pedigree analyst can often advise as to dogs to bring a trait back into balance. Least this is the way its supposed to be.


----------



## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

A little more historical perspective: Why do you think Stephanitz thought Horand was such a great dog? It could be for his looks! Or his temperament! Horand was a product of all four blood lines Cliff mentioned. In Horand, Max had all the genetics of the 4 types in balance. So to start building his breed, Max bred Horand to other dogs and wanted to improve the offspring. History shows that max wasn't a very good breeder and was ruthless when it came to culling. Knowing his limitations, max surrounded himself with proven breeders - particularly the ones from the baden-Wurttemberg region. Max even moved to that area and started his breeding with the bitches from the Krone kennel and the "bigger, soft-eared shepherd dogs" that were very intelligent and hard working.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

okay el stupido me, here I am again , start warming your tar pots so that I can be tarred and feathered again.
I have to give posts in concentrated format , right to the point , because I have limited time for myself - you see posts at 3 a m , because that is when my day ends - I post when I am at my desk , doing other things .

Reading a pedigree goes far beyond recognizing the names . 
You start by studying the dog . I am so pressed for time today -- and there are so many nuances.

In many a post I refer to the four regional types that were put together as a genetic starting point to unify into a breed . The dogs had been in existance for hundreds of years, even intermingled as the dogs were bred for function not for uniformity of an exterior or type , which is what defines a breed. The four dogs that Cliff mentioned are basically the representatives of these four regional types. 
The interplay and balance of how these four regions were put together sets the tone for what to expect out of a pedigree. 

The thread on the Opinion on Bloodline --- I said an excellent pedigree for a strong sport dog . Here is that pedigree again for reference Mating test - German Shepherd Dog

Mrs K said (a few posts before mine in this thread) 

Key dogs are dogs that are well known. In working line that would be Fero. Some people don't want Fero in the Pedigree so if they see Fero vom Zeutner Himmelreich, they disregard the dog without looking any further. 

Yoschi, Troll, Torro, Gildo, Olko, Orry, Orlie, Askia, Pike, Asko, Umsa... those are just a few key names I am looking for. If you see any of those names within five generations you know whats in the back already and you can predict what the dog could be like. 


In the Opinions thread I got a jab from Mrs K - she said Good grief...why should a dog out of those lines not be a companion dog? 

But Mrs K , I not ever once said a working line dog can't be a good companion, that is after all what I do , what I have . It was this particular pedigree thick with the names you mentioned was loaded with dogs and you could get a good sense of what to expect , which is what was starting to materialize . That is why I focused on the behaviour. Changing the management so that there is a better outcome . At that point since the dog had been bought the pedigree has little importance - you must deal with the living and breathing dog that you have in front of you. 

So lets look at this pedigree for education purposes.

The sire is Audie vom Haus der Rauches - German Shepherd Dog He looks to be a very intense dog. 
The pedigree is excellent for those that have a use for and appreciate the aggression and drive that key dogs in his pedigree promise as a potential.

So , sire, Audie has the great Orry Antverpa - who is Verwin Blitsaerd sired by ddr Robby Glockeneck. Robby sired another quite famous litter and that was Gento Larwin KNPV who produced another KNPV super star Rakker . One name , like "Cher".
I know where Gento ended up in Chicago area and got lots of first hand reports from expert hard dog handlers. One person I sent down on my dime to the kennels (to deliver a dog for psd).
Gibsy v d alten wassermuhle -- brings in Bernd Lierberg , which I always like to see. 
In my own pedigrees I have Gibsy showing up often.
Next Nessel Antverpa another great dog that I appears in many police working dogs , a base for a kennel - von der Polizei , here is a sample dog linebred on Nessel Yago von der Polizei - German Shepherd Dog
Next Nessy brings in Lord Gleisdreieck , many police service dogs and tracking stars out of Lord and real herding dogs - . Some vey good combinations have come out of Lord x Uwe Kirschental family -- this one has Dax K T. 
Next Yoschy son of Troll son of Fero - who could bring in good aggression or bring in too much reactive aggression depending on what he was paired with and what the balance of the pedigree was . His dam Mona was on the wild side 'mad Mona' . Here you have another outlet to the U litter Kirschental , through Andy Bildsaule. I had the privilege of meeting top german (IDM) competing police dog , son of Andy , Alf Pfanderucken as he was coming in to retirement. 

Since we have brought Troll v d bosen Nachbarschaft into the discussion , this may be a good time to mention that he has a brother , Timmy. Troll and Timmy represent and produce different sides of their own pedigree combination. Troll tends to produce more of what is coming through his great mother Askia's contributions of stable dog Bernd Lierberg (x2 through Nico Marterstock). Timmy tends to exhibit more sharpness , as does his progeny thanks to the concentration of Thuringian dog Nestor (reactive aggression) 

This one point will important when discussing this pedigree now being analysed in a much different way !

Half Ruhbachtal - son of Timmy , so on this sire you have both Troll and Timmy. 

So far, I believe , more of the Thuringian sources , if some one wants to spend the time to investigate that .

Good dog . Intense , by looks, lots of potential , just enough fire power to act aggressively through fight and continue to go forward , take what is given , maybe thanks to Verwin , Gento side , Askias Bernd, U Kirschentals herding lines dam line.

So the mother of the puppy. Can't go on without saying the sire Paska is just one beautiful specimen of a GSD . 

Now through Zello we have good coming from Arek Stoffelblick and we have Raps Goldbergheide who I believe was a source of some problems on Fero 

I am really running short on time -- this has already been done piecemeal -- so if I miss out on something or something is compressed that is why. yesterday it rained I made time -- today is gorgeous and I am catching up on basic chores .

When I look at a pedigree I always look at the females side first . This to me is more important than the sire . 

We start running into some potential problems in the pedigree balance with Candie Busecker Schloss , daughter of Half . I have seen quite a few, first hand , Half progeny that were skittish and fear aggressive. Nervous excitability and health problems . Half's sire Greif could go either way depending on what he was combined with . Could be just the right combination and be beneficial or could set the stage for a lot of undesirable issues. 
Pleuni , there is another matter altogether. 
Years ago I took the long drive to go visit an import/brokers facility. They had a lot of Greif progeny because in the early 90's he was the dog of interest , much as Fero became later on. This broker had a few Pleuni females. To this day , structure that was memorably beautiful -- but some of the shyest dogs I have seen , ever, even to this day some 20 years later. The kennel set up was that there was a large individual run maybe 30 feet long outside , 5 feet portion indoors , inside a barn . 
I stood outside with the importer , my friend, in law enforcement stood on the inside with another person. The dog came out started floating around, caught sight that she was being looked at , tucke tail and flew in to the inside portion. Then she realized that someone was looking at her from the inside and she rushed out. It went back and forth each time the run away from the entry/exit becoming shorter , till the dog froze in fear , all hair up , tail clamped on to her underbelly -- . There was no longer a person inside as the people I went with saw the response and wanted to spare the dog . They had come around to where I was , which was 15 feet back from where we had stood. When we first saw her she was not even in the pen closest to us , she was in the third run , so had a good 20 foot distance.
So when Pleuni is bred to Greif to get Half you can anticipate a problem , if not immediate , in the next generation. 
Then Candies dam goes back to Sagus , a Greif son , but with Bernd to stablize .
Continuing Ullo -- brings in Fero again. Nice female that Fero was bred to though. 
Dax with his Frei Gugge could bring in sharpness.
Can the show lines on Mara support the collection of sharp , Thuringian lines , when the show lines themselves are based from there (more or less) . I don't know.
I like to see a stronger mother's line.
Nick - like Nick , was very happy to bring him in to a recent pedigree . Like him for his close up Arek . 
He is a Timmy son though and in this pedigree you have lots of Fero . 
Last line and maybe the most important one for the mother of the litter is Yoschy again . Fero through Troll and 'mad' Mona . That is your sire line. 
The dam V Rina von den jungen Hansen - German Shepherd Dog which should be the strongest , the foundation, is the weakest , not strong show lines supporting the problems that can come out of Yoschy.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

so when I responded to the original 

Dooney is just a companion dog, but I am curious to get any info/opinions on her bloodlines??

I did not provide the information that I did in this thread "reading a pedigree" because I did not think that it would be of interest or use. I can see a pedigree and it instantly tells me something. So I tried to help by giving advice on how to manage the dog to circumvent problems inherent in the balance of the pedigree. In other words to ENABLE the OP. 
The dog is of the type that has the will to gain power without the desire or will to serve , which is what you get with a genetic obedience dog . 
If not managed properly do you want a dog that gets aggressive, goes into a rage when it doesn't get its way?

sorry to dredge this up - but had the question been more specific as was finally revealed - just wanting to know if hips and health would be okay a lot of my time could have been saved . 

This current thread allows for the kind of discussion which teaches about the pedigree. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

wildo said:


> GSDElsa's post this morning


And your thread is more popular than my thread!!!!!!! No fair!!! Rarumpf 

:rofl:


----------



## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

carmspack said:


> okay el stupido me, here I am again , start warming your tar pots so that I can be tarred and feathered again.
> I have to give posts in concentrated format , right to the point , because I have limited time for myself - you see posts at 3 a m , because that is when my day ends - I post when I am at my desk , doing other things .
> 
> Reading a pedigree goes far beyond recognizing the names .
> ...


I am sorry if i did not ask the question properly,but I am not a breeder and know nothing of pedigrees or how to read them (besides see the names) or how to ask a questions regarding them, but what you have just given me is really what i was looking for, I am interested and do appreciate everything you have listed out (i was also mainly concerned on health and hips). I am trying to educate myself more by having a working line dog. and I thank you for taking the time to still spell it all out even though we had a disagreement on your answer in my other post. 

I now know I have my hands full, She is a good dog and is very eager/quick to learn when I can get her to focus. So focus and obedience will be something we begin working on immediately. I will be re-reading the information several times until I really get everything you have said. 

Thank you again for this information.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

But back to the original...really a good topic some of the other things that I would like to understand better are

tail lines and in lines out lines who knows what lines
Significant lines (I know Bruce Brisson did this for males)
significant females xx vs xy- I know the female passes one of two x's wheras the males only pass the y to the males and the x to the females. [maybe the troll timmy question and sons vs daughters?]

Comparing same pedigree with male x on top and female y on bottom vs. male littermate to female y to top and female littermate to male x on bottom --- See I know position is important.

Oh, it is all so fascinating. Give us enough to make us dangerous


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

@Carmspack: you do know that Askia was very boarderline, especially when it came up to competing, do you? She was pretty nervy at times and not that easy to handle.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What Carmen outlines is the way Lisa, Chris, Christine, myself, Doc, and others tend to look at a pedigree. Most of us have this information stored in our heads so we just start at a given spot when we see certain dogs or combinations. But all of us have also SEEN many of these dogs and certainly progeny of these dogs in person and actually worked in person to validate these subjective opinions. This is why you have to have knowledge and experience to even come close(and then sometimes you still miss things), and the reason we can sometimes make definite statements that tend to come to past. It is also why we like to talk substance and not fluff in discussing this breed. When you thoroughly understand this genetic/history/ part of the breed in conjunction with the way the breed has developed, you don't get upset at a synopsis that is based on faulty breeding because you understand what has occurred AND have a good idea where you will end up if you keep in certain directions.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

If we are tlaking about the same Askia


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, but talk substance people don't want to hear and you get flamed because it goes against the popular opinion and pretty much everything they think they know. BTDT and won't do it again. 

One dog for example, very popular, went through many different hands and one reason he became the way he was, was not necessarily because it was in his genes but because he was effed up by so many handlers that in the end he was barely able to be handled. 

Many dogs went from handler to handler and through even more hands. If one couldn't handle the dog, he was reached to the next person until they finally came into knowledgable hands, yet even more dogs were ruined for life due to the old training methods. One might say that it was sort of a natural selection process because if they couldn't handle it, they just weren't hard enough... but oh well... who am I to talk. 



cliffson1 said:


> What Carmen outlines is the way Lisa, Chris, Christine, myself, Doc, and others tend to look at a pedigree. Most of us have this information stored in our heads so we just start at a given spot when we see certain dogs or combinations. But all of us have also SEEN many of these dogs and certainly progeny of these dogs in person and actually worked in person to validate these subjective opinions. This is why you have to have knowledge and experience to even come close(and then sometimes you still miss things), and the reason we can sometimes make definite statements that tend to come to past. It is also why we like to talk substance and not fluff in discussing this breed. When you thoroughly understand this genetic/history/ part of the breed in conjunction with the way the breed has developed, you don't get upset at a synopsis that is based on faulty breeding because you understand what has occurred AND have a good idea where you will end up if you keep in certain directions.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Another aspect - besides the very good posts by Carmen, Cliff, etc (BTW - my first Sch3 female Kyra, thus Csabre, and Bengal, all go to Yago, mentioned in Carmen's post and I know the owners of vdP - we are hoping to get this line back to them via Csabre or one of her progeny)...is that you have to look up or get copies of the pedigree of as many dogs as you can that you see and meet and start to look for patterns along with this knowledge...what works with what. Characteristics linked to certain dogs that show up consistently down through generations...

Studied TBs and other breeds to some extent all my life...prepotency was often spoken of and the good ones reproduced themselves...same with dogs...certain dogs produced certain things consistantly, and then their offspring express and pass these aspects on....so "lines" become then are said to bring X Y or Z to the table - good or bad....and you have to know what the negatives are as well when you see line breeding...it helps to study individual dogs and their pedigrees, and eventually you will start to see and learn to identify specific traits...

Now - breeding to a breed standard, there are going to be many, many many dogs who have the same characteristics- ie prey drive for example - from many sources....it is easier to breed for conformation IMO than character - as you can see structure so much more easily!

Lee


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Nick - like Nick , was very happy to bring him in to a recent pedigree . Like him for his close up Arek .


Don't forget Fricka. The O litter dogs were even more powerful than Gildo. Especially Olko and Orlie. Orlie actually went into the hands of one of my parents closest friends and I pretty much watched him from puppyhood till the day he died. 

Fricka used to be an awesome bitch as well and I can give you some good stories about Cora as well LOL


----------



## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> @Carmspack: you do know that Askia was very boarderline, especially when it came up to competing, do you? She was pretty nervy at times and not that easy to handle.


Nervy soft or nervy sharp? I have seen some of very soft, slightly nervy, types coming down from a bitch that was linebred 5,5-5 on her--not so much the sharp (although, I suppose, it would only take the wrong combination to tip from soft to sharp).


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you Dooney's Mom , that is big of you. 

The one thing that I promise to do , always, is to tell the truth about something. 

best to you
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> @Carmspack: you do know that Askia was very boarderline, especially when it came up to competing, do you? She was pretty nervy at times and not that easy to handle.


 
Mrs K I think we should be clear that we are talking about Askia Froschgraben , a female that went to BSP three times and her kor report says "
*Kör:* Small, strong, dry, firm, good expression; withers could be more pronounced, backline slightly unstable, strong loin part of the back, very good croup. Angulation cannot be faulted, correct front, good bone. Walks slightly narrow, very good reach. Temperament cannot be faulted, fighting drive, courage and hardness pronounced.
Resurvey 1984: Shown in best form and condition. Clearly shows to be 6 weeks pregnant and today hardness, courage and fightdrive are worthy of praise and pronounced.
*Siblings:* Adschy / Aky / Andra / Anka / Asco.
*Linebreeding: *..............._None in first 5 generations_

-- so lets make sure that this is corrected . I have not ever heard of Askia having borderline anything !

In the pedigree of Fero , through his sire you have many touches to Nestor (thuringian) which brings in sharpness and Rolf who is the pillar of the now show lines. But he also carried Bernd Lierberg through Andrel and brought in Racker and old Kirschental lines .
Askia brings in Bernd through Andrel and Eros.

If you breed Fero well you can get tremendous power and tenacity , get energetic delivery of obedience.
This is something that Askia contributed . Troll bosen Nachbarschaft and the progeny which takes after him were happy willing workers and if I am right were a little slower to mature , not as co ordinated as his brother Timmy's progeny.

Timmy on the other hand was sharper . It is said that when he roared into the blind he was aroused and his hair lofted a bit -- . Timmy did things for himself .

later - just wanted to get straight on Askia 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

For whatever reason, I got home from agility practice and was crazy tired; I wasn't able to make it through this thread. But I did get it read this morning, and wow- there is some crazy knowledge in here... Thanks Carmen for taking the time! (and everyone else)


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

You may not have heard of it but the fact is that she did not deal with pressure very well. 



carmspack said:


> Mrs K I think we should be clear that we are talking about Askia Froschgraben , a female that went to BSP three times and her kor report says "
> *Kör:* Small, strong, dry, firm, good expression; withers could be more pronounced, backline slightly unstable, strong loin part of the back, very good croup. Angulation cannot be faulted, correct front, good bone. Walks slightly narrow, very good reach. Temperament cannot be faulted, fighting drive, courage and hardness pronounced.
> Resurvey 1984: Shown in best form and condition. Clearly shows to be 6 weeks pregnant and today hardness, courage and fightdrive are worthy of praise and pronounced.
> *Siblings:* Adschy / Aky / Andra / Anka / Asco.
> ...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

While you are at it. 
Indra vom Sattelberg - German Shepherd Dog

Do you think she should be a companion dog or a dog kept as a pet? 
Would you say there'd be some aggression issues? 
How would you expect her to be drive wise? Prey and Hunt vs civil an defense? 

Would you say she's biddable, has genetic obedience?
Handler hard? High or Low Threshold? 

Just from the pedigree.

And what would you say about him? http://www.working-dog.eu/dogs_details.php?id=568245&abo
I can tell you exactly what his father was like. That dog was ruined by word to mouth. They downtalked him because of some jealous folks and his handler used to be a knowledgable Judge and I grew up with his daughter. As far as I know it was his only litter. He was framed for something he never did, which is the reason he left the SV. 

I don't even know if you have ever heard of the sire, but you probably heard of the rest in the pedigree.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

^^^This should probably be a new thread, Mrs.K IMHO, anyway...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

IT's about how you read pedigrees, isn't it? They more it is explained on actual pedigrees they more you get out of it. 

She can say what she thinks the dog is like just by reading the pedigree and I can give you an exact statement of what the dog actually is like and what goes conform and what doesn't.

Indra has one of the strongest working line pedigrees with some of the most demanded dogs out there, that is the kind of pedigree you'd look for if you wanted to compete on a national level and be successful in the sport. In fact her littermates are pretty much ready to take the IPO already and some of the other litters, from the exact same combination are already competing on national level in Austria. Yukon has some very strong an serious dogs on the mother side, however his sire was super prey-driven but not as hard as the dogs on the mother side even though he's got some pretty serious dogs on the sire side as well.


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I can see your perspective on that.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

A discussion of this sort could become rather personal in a not so good way and is probably a very bad idea. Just the challenge is already confrontational.

Admin Lisa

****


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Where do you see something confrontational? As for personal, I know exactly whats in my dog and what isn't. She pretty much already laid everything out what she thinks about Fero, Timmy, Troll, Yoschi, Mona and Askia already and you've got to be able to discuss the pedigrees without going at each others throat and I think we are both capable of doing that 

How else are you supposed to learn? There is always good and bad in a pedigree, good and bad combination, toxic and great combinations health and drive wise. It all depends on if you can accept that even the most successful dogs have weaknesses. Weaknesses you may not know about but you may learn about them from somebody else who has seen those dogs personally. The problem is that nobody is going to write a book about it because people do not want to hear the truth about their own dogs. 

I know the weaknesses of my own dogs and I know what they are capable of an what they are not capable off. 

Let's take Yukon for example. Just from the pedigree alone, he could have been a top competitor. But his faith was a different. He got into hands that ruined him, he did come around but meanwhile he's just a pet. Just from the pedigree alone you'd think that he would have ended up with an aggression issue. But he did not. He's one of them kindest, sweetest, dogs you will ever come across. The fact that he is as trusting as he is, speaks volumes. 

So a pedigree cannot predict everything. While he is resilient he is not a super-hard dog. He did not know how to play when I got him so everybody thought he doesn't have a prey-drive. Which he does, he's got a good hunt-drive and he does a good amount of defense but that is only coming out when he's actually threatened. He's healthy, got an A-Stamp for the hips and elbows, a ZW of 84 and a super temperament. He has no issues with shots fired either, so he is not the nervebag everybody said he was. His issues are completely man-made and not because it's a genetic issue. It was his upbringing as a puppy and you can ruin a dog with a great pedigree and the best genes out there in no time if you decide to squish the pup from day one...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Now think about it. If I had only posted his pedigree and never talked about what he went through. The reactions towards him would be entirely different. People question his ability and if it is really man-made or a genetic issue because they don't know him as well as I do. So if I sired him out, despite his awesome pedigree, without him being titled, I'd be labeled a backyard breeder. 

If I had never talked about those things, and simply put his pedigree up, got a litter of pups and put out there that the SchH 1 is in the making... it would have given him an entirely different picture. 

So a pedigree is only as good as the dog is and if people know about the weaknesses of the dogs you won't sell those pups you produce, which is why the handlers mainly pass on the glory details and the weaknesses are forgotten but those are the ones you want to know about, so you want to find a person that can tell you both, the glory details AND the weaknesses.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think anyone would say that a pedigree can predict everything. When a premise is based on that statement, either the person making the statement is a fool, or the person using that analogy is misrepresenting a person's thoughts. 
In every litter of 5 or more dogs you are going to have dogs of different types if for no other reason than the parents are different. You breed a dog with a strong civil side to a female with good solid nerve and all the pups won't be civil or not civil. Pedigree reading is about generalizing on traits that seem to follow certain dogs and certain lines consistently. But they are never absolute and the dog they are bred to can cancel out the particular strength or trait in some cases. Nothing is absolute, and no one dog makes a case because there could be other dogs from the same litter that could be opposite the one dog that the case is built on. Timmy did have a different expression of temperament than did Troll, though both are from the same litter. If you go back 3 generations on both sides you can easily see where both Timmjy and Troll got there outward expression....Its all good


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Lisa don't worry I wasn't taking the bait. 

Mrs K let me concentrate on the post I have been working on here and there minutes at a time during the day. 

I don't know if you are contradicting yourself or not , one moment saying you can tell, and another you can not .

you did say though 

Yoschi, Troll, Torro, Gildo, Olko, Orry, Orlie, Askia, Pike, Asko, Umsa... those are just a few key names I am looking for. If you see any of those names within five generations you know whats in the back already and you can predict what the dog could be like. 

and 

So If I am looking for a dog, I am looking at the pedigrees and seek out what I want in my dog. Then I go there and look at the dog itself and if it doesn't have what I want in the dog, i move on. 

to which I could not give better advice 

and 
I know exactly whats in my dog and what isn't. She pretty much already laid everything out what she thinks about Fero, Timmy, Troll, Yoschi, Mona and Askia already 

which means there is no point for me to do more , and we'll leave it at that . with respect.

If you want your dog analysed I would be happy to recommend either Yvonne Hecht with her winsis program, or contact someone else who will do so for a fee.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Lisa don't worry I wasn't taking the bait.
> 
> Mrs K let me concentrate on the post I have been working on here and there minutes at a time during the day.
> 
> ...


You can and you can't. You can predict it but without seeing the dog you won't know for sure. I thought that came across. And a dogs pedigree is only as good as the dog. If the dog sucks, the best pedigree in the world can't change that.

As for Askia, she used to be a very good dog, that is out of question but she did not handle pressure very well and did have a nervy side that could go into sharpness/aggression. Nevertheless, she produced some great dogs but you could also get dogs that had a nerve issue.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't even know where to start today -- maybe with some more information on the Dooney dog 
. In the spirit of looking at the pedigree for education about certain dogs and what they have to offer , overall , and to this pedigree.


sire - Audie v h Rauches Audie vom Haus der Rauches - German Shepherd Dog
dam Cimmy Salztalblick Cimmy vom Salztalblick - German Shepherd Dog

previously I drew attention to the greater ratio of the Nestor - thuringian background. 
Remember I said that this dog could be a very good sport dog.

This portion of the pedigree is quick , physically and emotionally - a quick reactive action on threat , which is perceived more quickly at a greater distance , real or not . Good for sport because reactive aggression , defensive aggression , is limitless . The response will be there as long as needed. It is self preservation . Many of the more recently created sport pedigrees seem to have an increasing bias toward the excitable thuringian background. Physically good strong backs, guick ground covering , athletic , quick reaction.
But - call on the defense too much and you encounter physical problems associated with stress and anxiety including obsessive behaviour, displacement activity, if not given an outlet self traumatizing - chewing , licking , digestive problems , exhausted adrenal glands , fast metabolism , needing more food to keep in ideal weight and condition.

already this post is suffering from distractions taking me away while trying to get it down--

nerves under pressure -- the more pressure the dog can deal with in a stressful situation the more stable he will be . Pressure comes in many forms -- even disapproval is 
stress - so yes even in simple obedience , environmental factors - a busy crowd or you yelling to be heard over the music to have your teenager come down for dinner .
I had a good friend , a research bio-geneticist drop in the other day and the discussion came round to dogs. His carmspack dog passed away earlier this spring and he is soon to have another join his household. He and his adult kids drop in spontaneously all the time and socialize with pups . We were really into the thick of an animated discussion and the volume just kept rising. Then he stopped and he said that if he were at his sisters house her gsd would have become nervous and slunk off to some other room . 

In this pedigree there are checks and balances bringing in dogs that are hard and confident and have great gribs -- Arek Stoffelblick, Gildo Korbelbach, Fero too through Edda Berglein brings in Bernd Lierberg and excellent herding lines (when you know the pedigree you can capitalize on the strengths !) , Marc Hurkulesblick who brings in the Lierbergs and Marko Cellerland nicely - reputed to be a happy willing worker , something that he transmitted to his offspring. In the pedigree this is the one element missing -- more dogs with a willingness -- however 
remember that you have a genetic response and a conditioned response. 

which brings me to this

the balance of the pedigree , as far as a preponderence of what family line bias it has , will mature differently . The dogs that we have been discussing coming from the Nestor or thuringian region matured faster . Schutzhund sporters like this because they like to get into training , get onto to the field with something to work with "soon" . For those providing dogs for service -- you have to have some - you can't hold on to a dog till he's three to have every thing come together . 

I have come to this theory that dogs that go through a "fear period" may just be experiencing the one portion of their genetic background come to the fore ground until the slower to mature parts come in to play.
I think that it is a mistake to take these dogs in this period and force them to endure "pressure" to overcome the fear period - flooding them with experience. It is in a way an attempt to overcome a genetic response with a conditioned 
-- searching for words --- reprogramming ? for lack of better way of articulating it. 

I also am thinking that lets say all the things associated with the "Nestor" side, quick reactive - defense driven aggression come out early , and a sport person were to hone in too much , as in bite work or aggression too early , then you are conditioning a response to being reactive , you are creating neuronal connections which become imbedded --- but the dog has more to its little self - the other parts of the family tree , which are slower maturing. Why not have the dog just live a nice normal life, exposed to normal life , not trying to find a breaking point , the point where the threshold is , because that is not what a trusted partner does . Then when the dog is altogether and ALL parts of the pedigree have caught up , then you can do the work and get a better , more stable result.

Sense?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Arek Stoffelblic, Gildo Korbelbach, Fero too through Edda Berglein brings in Bernd Lierberg and excellent herding lines (when you know the pedigree you can capitalize on the strengths !)


something not many people know is that Gildo brings in Herding Instinct. He also brings in excellent Hunt Drive.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes he does right through black dog Frei v d Gugge (right to Claudius Hain) and the Busecker Schloss dogs . One of the reasons I was so happy to get this pedigree Carmina Vom Sitting Bull - German Shepherd Dog rich with herding !!! and then I bred her to a Maineiche offspring.
I already had Alf Stoffelblick in the background wanted to have Arek through the maternal side and forward to refresh the impact.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this maturity time table is why people can see almost next day changes in a dog , like the *** 9month old sable offered for free ***

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

carmspack said:


> this maturity time table is why people can see almost next day changes in a dog , like the *** 9month old sable offered for free ***


 :rofl:


----------



## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Holy moly that is a WHOLE lot of information. So, am I understanding you right, are you saying that her pedigree "lacks" the willingness to do as asked? My other GSD definitely tried to "please" me more quickly than Dooney does. (she seems to be easily distracted, or just doesn't care- hence why i am trying to work on her focus) Once I have her focused she is usually pretty quick to respond to me. I get the gist that pedigree isn't everything and that each pup out of each litter can exhibit different behaviors. I see a lot of what you are outlining as "possible" characteristics in her. 

In your earlier breakdown, you had indicated that somewhere in her lines was a nervous dog. I have seen no major nervous indicators in her, is this something that would have come out by now if she was going to be that way, or should I still be on the lookout for her to exhibit that behavior? She does not like when we are walking if someone is coming up behind us and will constantly look over her shoulder at them, but she doesn't really "freak" out about it. She is not afraid during thunderstorms (thank God- had a dog who was petrified and used to run and jump in the bathtub regardless if anyone was in it) 

She also does not seem overly "aggressive" depending on your definition of aggressive- she barks like crazy/hackles up at new people and dogs that she wants to play with, and sounds viscous, but as soon as she gets to the person/dog she is a big lover and she has a tendency to do what i call the "submissive pee" (though she appears to be growing out of that one). 

Now her brother on the other hand- he does not like for random strangers to pet him and his owners no longer allow them to pet him (i have been sharing all of this fascinating information with them as well-we are having a playdate tomorrow!) , but he is the one being trained for schutzhund so i don't know if that is something you WANT or not in a Schutzhund dog.

Anyway- thanks again for this info. I am definitely beginning to understand Dooney a little better.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> this maturity time table is why people can see almost next day changes in a dog , like the *** 9month old sable offered for free ***
> 
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


Why shouldn't a dog go through puberty? 


> yes he does right through black dog Frei v d Gugge (right to Claudius Hain) and the Busecker Schloss dogs . One of the reasons I was so happy to get this pedigree Carmina Vom Sitting Bull - German Shepherd Dog rich with herding !!! and then I bred her to a Maineiche offspring.
> I already had Alf Stoffelblick in the background wanted to have Arek through the maternal side and forward to refresh the impact.


Yep, and he passed it along and each generation passed it along all the way through Labrini. They all have the herding instinct and the hunt drive. 

You know, I don't think that the herding instinct is such an issue. I have yet to see a GSD that doesn't have it. The main problem is if they have the nerve and hardness to go through with the training. At least that is what I understand from some Herding trainers that the main issue is that a lot of dogs can't handle that kind of pressure and you have to work around it.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wildo said:


> :rofl:


 
Wildo here is what I was thinking of , light hearted of course , Emoore's http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...me-9-month-old-dark-sable-ddr-lines-male.html

I'll take him !!

Think about it though . If you raise enough litters , same sire , same dam , same experiences as much as you can provide that , you will have dogs that have excellerated ability to move through training, others that come to the table first or more quickly for something or other , sometimes the pup that is overlooked is a sleeper and may end up the best. 

Dogs that may have been best , end up elsewhere in the grading .


----------



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

LOL- yes, I was quite aware of what you were referring to. I thought it was really funny... I saw the thread, but never considered the "higher ups" were looking at the pedigree thinking to themselves- "duh... it's right there in the pedigree!!" hahaha...


----------



## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

cliffson1 said:


> What Carmen outlines is the way Lisa, Chris, Christine, myself, Doc, and others tend to look at a pedigree. Most of us have this information stored in our heads so we just start at a given spot when we see certain dogs or combinations. But all of us have also SEEN many of these dogs and certainly progeny of these dogs in person and actually worked in person to validate these subjective opinions. This is why you have to have knowledge and experience to even come close(and then sometimes you still miss things), and the reason we can sometimes make definite statements that tend to come to past. It is also why we like to talk substance and not fluff in discussing this breed. When you thoroughly understand this genetic/history/ part of the breed in conjunction with the way the breed has developed, you don't get upset at a synopsis that is based on faulty breeding because you understand what has occurred AND have a good idea where you will end up if you keep in certain directions.


:hug::hug::hug:


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs.K said:


> something not many people know is that Gildo brings in Herding Instinct. He also brings in excellent Hunt Drive.
> 
> 
> although he has herding -- Gildo , with his powerful bite which he transmitted to Alf and Arek Stoffelblick , did not represent what you want out of herding as far as that easy way of working with the handler. If you are looking for tracking with Gildo there should be lots of dogs compensating with an instinctive tracking drive - which Gildo was not particularly known for. Hunt drive , yes . Thinking back to the other post I gave with all the von Stephanitz quotes about some "type" of early gsd being used for real game hunting -- Gildo fits into this as he was used to hunt wild pigs. He could seek them out and dispatch them. Wild pigs are a hazard and are very tough in the fight.
> ...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Mrs.K said:
> 
> 
> > something not many people know is that Gildo brings in Herding Instinct. He also brings in excellent Hunt Drive.
> ...


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Carmen, have you ever met Gildo in person? Or any of his direct offspring or dogs out of the Baerenfang Kennel since that Kennel actually owned Gildo? 

If not, how can you say that they did not have the herding instinct? Yes, he is mainly known for his working abilities since herding isn't something many Schutzhund Breeders care about. However, they did have it all. 

Gildo had it, Olko had it, Simba had it, Satan had it, Dixie had it. Every single dog I know, out of that kennel, had the herding instinct. Even Yukon has it!


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mrs K . without doubt Gildo was an excellent producer . 

I wanted to double check on the comments I made about Gildo. The information came from a meeting of 3 gentlemen , two of which I have great respect for their delving into genetics , and the other being Artur Wittmer who raised Gildo and is Stoffelblick kennels. He said that Gildo killed pigs on the farm , that he was one tough s o b , h had high pain thresholds and tremendously powerful bite. 

My interest was that part of my breeding plan was to refresh Alf Stoffelblick found on one of my pedigrees , bring in something new, a female specifically with Arek through her mother's sire line - which I did through a Nick Heiligenbosch daughter . So anything with Arek , Gildo made me sit up straight and pay attention to make sure it is the direction I wanted to take.

Don't forget two awesome Gildo kids Blacky and Berry Neuen Land. !

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

We did not get Gildo as a puppy. He was already an adult but never have I heard my father say that Gildo went pig hunting with his former owner. I think he was one or two years old when he moved in with us. He lived with us until he died. He was his most successful dog. I am not sure how many hands he went through before my father bought him. He was bred via Juergen Ritzi, then sold, and my father bought him from a friend, I believe he lived at the Switzerlan boarder since he was most active in the Tengen Area at the time.

He was a powerful dog, he did have a very high threshold was extremely hard. He was the type of dog that always asked for more. Especially when he was out on the field. He was so eager that he himself stood in his way. Yet, he was the perfect housedog. Lived with four other males in the house and we crawled all over him. In the winter time, him and Olko actually pulled the sled with us kids. I guess not many people expect that from a dog like him. 

Also, another great dog used to be Asko vom Siegelgrund. 





> I wanted to double check on the comments I made about Gildo. The information came from a meeting of 3 gentlemen , two of which I have great respect for their delving into genetics , and the other being Artur Wittmer who raised Gildo and is Stoffelblick kennels. He said that Gildo killed pigs on the farm , that he was one tough s o b , h had high pain thresholds and tremendously powerful bite.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Mrs K . without doubt Gildo was an excellent producer .
> 
> I wanted to double check on the comments I made about Gildo. The information came from a meeting of 3 gentlemen , two of which I have great respect for their delving into genetics , and the other being Artur Wittmer who raised Gildo and is Stoffelblick kennels. He said that Gildo killed pigs on the farm , that he was one tough s o b , h had high pain thresholds and tremendously powerful bite.
> 
> ...


Oh, how could i forget 

By the way, your question about Ina. She was a normal bitch, but she passed on the genes and produced plenty of great dogs, one of which was a world champion 

So Ina is a dog that should be taken into consideration.


----------



## apishner (Dec 27, 2017)

So much good information, thank you!


----------

