# Tonight's 2x2 and "out" session



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Finally got my 2x2's all painted and setup outside. Current offset is set at about four inches. I also practiced some outs and you can see she is not overly responsive. The very first out was the "make the toy dead" method. You can see she continues to pull even when it's dead. The second one I used the "collar choke out" and to be honest- I had to pull so hard I lifted her legs off the ground. I really didn't like that method. To have to literally choke out my dog every time I want her to drop it simply wouldn't be acceptable. Near the end of the video, I used some very high value treats (actually, some elk sticks I brought back from a recent trip to Montana and Yellowstone national park). She responds nearly immediately to the elk, but yeah... That would get expensive FAST! Besides, the elk is MINE! haha!

Anyway- she's progressing really well on weaves in spite of my really crappy handling. I made a LOT of mistakes in this video: bad shoulders, bad hand signals, not setting her up very well, throwing the ball high instead of bowling it out, and throwing the ball far instead of short. Like I said, lots of errors. Even so- Pimg is driving pretty well, and I'm still quite proud. We do need to work on our Line-ups as well. There's just so much to learn/train...

The second to last time through, she actually caught her leg (or something) on the pole and moved the whole set! Man, that was scary!! Can't wait until she is weaving straight in a row so I can better secure these things together. (I currently have 6" nails in the ground holding them in place.)

Anyway, enjoy.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I love the time and dedication you have for Pimg, he's one lucky dog!:thumbup:


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks Whiteshepherds! Actually, Pimg is female.  I honestly just love sharing things. For me, it's very rewarding to be able to share our training. That said- comments like yours make me feel so guilty because compared to a lot of the active members on this forum- I feel like a HUGE slacker!!! I'll get there- eventually. In the meantime, I just do what I can! :toasting:


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> compared to a lot of the active members on this forum- *I feel like a HUGE slacker*!!! I'll get there- eventually. In the meantime, I just do what I can! :toasting:


Well you can't be talking about ME! Besides my weekly classes, I'm lucky if I go WAY OUT INTO MY BACK YARD (oh the miles and miles to go out that back door  ) and do some jump and weave training once or twice a week.

I tend to rely on my weekly classes and then if there is a skill we have trouble with in class, my 'homework' is to try to get into my yard to work on it for a bit.

I know that I have trouble with OVER training in my yard to get things perfect and hence sucking out the fun...... so it's great that 'the toys' are a huge part of my yard training (and I do that on purpose). Cause the chasing and tugging is always fun. :wild:

Wildo, I was just talking to a the only other person with a GSD at the trial on Saturday and he was raving about a 'How to Tug and Release and Use the Tug to Train' type video that Leerburg has by Michael Ellis. He said it was a DVD and so it's not this... but this may be a clip from it: (or not)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for that MRL! I'll be sure to check it out. I've never seen really _anything_ on toy play. I kinda was just going on common sense and practicality. Well, come to think of it- I have watched the Ivan DVDs, but that's my only exposure to the concept. It will be nice to see another source on the subject!

I was curious what you thought of our weaving as well?


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Pimg's weaving looks great to me! I love her attitude, she seems to really like weaving. One thing I would definitely work on that I didn't see you mentioning is make sure to work entries high around the arc on both sides. Most of your entries in the video are from about 5 o'clock to 7 o'clock (where the entrance is at 6 and exit is 12). 

On teaching "out", don't forget to reward it when she does it. Other than your method at the end where you traded food for the tug, I didn't see any reward other than being sent back to the poles. I'd mix it up and reward her by sometimes letting her tug again and sometimes using a food reward. I use the "make it dead" technique and if she continues to tug, I walk with her as she backs up so that there is no tension on the tug whatsoever.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks Kristin! I did work a few other entry positions, but overall she is most strong at the 5-7 o'clock positions. I think I left most of the attempts in, but some I did cut out since she missed them. I *try* to adhere to the "if you fail two times, I have made it too difficult" rule- though admittedly I tend to stretch it to three or four times. So when I was working the harder entries (past 6 o'clock) I would keep making it easier each failed attempt by repositioning the send to an easier clock position. So when I made the video, I might have cut out a lot of the failed attempts at harder entries.

Like I said, I think I learned a lot just by watching myself in this video. I am doing a lot of things wrong. When we were practicing in the house in a very confined space- it seemed like she had her entries pretty well solidified. Now that we have a lot more space outside, I can see that she doesn't quite get it yet. She's definitely getting there- no question, but not there yet.

I will modify my training by continuing with the 6 poles _offset_ to help build confidence and drive [I noticed in class that she will do six poles straight in a row but she does it much slower without confidence], but I will also mix it up by practicing with only one pole set (2 poles) to help reestablish my requirements for entry. I definitely agree we have work to do here.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I don't train 2x2' s so can't really comment too much cause I wouldn't know what I was talking about! 

LOVE the speed and enthusiasm, the toy makes all the difference to keep your pup in the game (even if they aren't quite sure of the rules!) 

Do you have the DVD's about teaching the entries? I'd almost back up and watch those cause you may have rushed the training just a bit. Cause though she's mostly amazing when she starts right and continues, clearly she isn't REALLY clear about why the heck where she enters seems to matter so much to you....

Do you initially just do the ONE set of 2 poles to teach entries with this method? 

I know the way I teach I use 3 poles on my set of 6, just pulling off the other 3 and setting on the ground way off. Then I JUST practice the entries and my rewards/markers don't mess up the rest of the 6 that my dog may be weaving beautifly but the entry was wrong and so my TIMING for the correction is when my dog is doing the 'weaving' correctly at pole 5/6/7/8 but the fact the dog darted in between pole 2/3 is the real issue. For me, removing the extra poles and only having the entry poles helps.

So I'm thinking maybe that's when just one set of 2 is used? 

Truthfully, you are both almost there and weaving already much better than many dogs I see in excellent that the handler is coaxing thru with a pretend treat in their hand!


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Wow- I wasn't expecting a compliment like that! Thanks! Yeah, I did start with only two poles, then four, then six. The big gotchya is that I started in the winter in the biggest room in my house. (I have a video of that- I posted it a month or so ago.) When I was in the room (with two poles, mind you) she seemed to be nailing the entries. That's when we added two more poles, and eventually six total. I also worked from pretty wide offsets (like over 12") to a pretty narrow one (currently at about 4"). Once we got outside though with much more room to run around, that's when I noticed she started missing entries. I discussed that with my trainer today, and she definitely suggested to _continue_ the six poles to help Pimg build confidence, footing, and drive- but _also_ work a single set to reestablish the rules of the game. There's no question she is missing them a lot.

I will say that she nailed the entries in class today. My instructor asked me if the trip I went on to Montana last week was _really_ a trip to an agility seminar! haha! It sure is awesome when your dog is doing awesome!!! :wild: :wub:


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I think it looks great, and I will say I'm impressed. Nice training job


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Why do you figure there are so few GSD's in agility? I remember watching trials on TV years ago, and saw many GSD's. I wonder if I was seeing Malinois and didn't realize it back then??

Over seas it seems the mals are used in agility a ton, but here you don't seem to really see that it seems. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do you figure people don't use the GSD's because they just aren't typically as fast and healthy as other breeds? Or perhaps people are worried about temperament?


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Awesome video!! Can't wait till I get to that point. I agree with Kristin: Shorter tug sessions and more outs (saw it in the Michael Ellis video).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Man, I don't think I am qualified to answer that, Rerun. I can at least _confirm_ that there are very few GSDs at my training facility. Why- well... I really don't know! I can even tell you that I asked my instructor if she's ever trained a GSD before and she hadn't. So yes, it does seem to be less and less common.

That said, I have no real comparison. I didn't really even know of agility until I started training over at the place you go to. That really was my intro to the sport- so I have no "when I was a kid" perspective to draw on.

Why it is how it is- my _absolute guess_ is that Americans tend to want GSDs bigger and bigger over the years. Well- I think that's true anyway. When you take any GSD even remotely close to the breed standard for a walk and people ask why they are so small, that's kind of affirmation of the theory. Maybe the bigger and bigger shepherds just aren't agile enough? Or maybe Americans are just more and more lazy? Honestly- I have no idea. I'll defer to the experts with more **ahem** age than me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

wildo said:


> When I was in the room (with two poles, mind you) she seemed to be nailing the entries. That's when we added two more poles, and eventually six total. I also worked from pretty wide offsets (like over 12") to a pretty narrow one (currently at about 4"). Once we got outside though with much more room to run around, that's when I noticed she started missing entries.


YOU have just experienced how WHERE our dogs are makes a difference in their performance. It's what always throws us for a loop when they always do 'a' when we are one place, then suddenly we do the SAME thing (to us) somewhere else and our dogs seem to suddenly be a different dog throwing out a 'z' behavior! 

So while to us a room in our house seems like it would be the same as in our yard.... it may not be to our dogs! But the fact that THIS is normal too is just something we learn to take in stride and train thru. It is what it is, doesn't matter that it makes no sense to us  so we just become better trainers as we figure out how to move on and continue to develop the skills!

*Rerun*, I also have no idea why so few GSD's are in agility considering they are the #4 registered dog in the USA. Where the heck are all these GSDs???? Structurally, the extreme AKC show dogs just aren't built for being the best agility dogs.... but that's just a small representative of the breed.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

MRL- that video clip was really helpful! I think I'll look for the full DVD asap. (Though- it really irks me that leerburg often has spelling mistakes in their dvds and video clips. I find it so incredibly unprofessional. I guess that doesn't deter from the quality of the content though.)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I put together another 2x2 video session tonight and thought I'd share. Pimg is really starting to understand the proper entry. She's not 100% yet, but I really think she's getting it. I've put together some challenging entries, and she's nailing them. I also decided to do some adhoc serpentine work. I haven't done any bar jump training in a while, so it seemed like a good idea. I was pretty lazy with it though- my backyard is kinda muddy and I hate walking/running in the mud.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Have you figured out how to get her to want to bring the tug back? (Genuine question; I want to know how! )


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Wow btw the video is awesome awesome awesome! She is looking so good! Even better than the last video. What an improvement, GJ! :thumbup:


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## ponyfarm (Apr 11, 2010)

Pimg looks so great. Great training!! No help from me on the agility, but on the "out" with the tug...instead of just playing dead toy, and still keeping tension...try even moving forward with her so all the fun of the tug is gone.

Does that make sense.? I do that at the same time as a small pull up on the collar and it works every time. He does not "out' automatically on his own yet, but def has the idea. 

Great to see Pimg.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks everyone! It's no joke when I say that I see a huge improvement in her literally every week. She is so intelligent, and it seems she really, really _wants_ to learn and develop the skills. Though I don't think this current video is a great representation, I am also being even more conscious of _myself_ and how I am directing her. I wish I could get a video from class where we are doing pretty difficult full courses, but it's really hard to get someone to record it. I don't like to impose on them. Anyhow- yeah, I am so pleased with her progress- I just had to share!

As to the "outting" if you look close, you can see me treating her. I happened across a post from Chris Wild that really resonated with me:



Chris Wild said:


> If one always equates letting go with the end of the game, then of course the dog isn't going to let go. Why would she? It is in her best interest not to because when she does it means all the fun goes away. Dogs learn much better when we show them that the things we want them to do bring reinforcement in the form of getting things they like. Certainly not in the form of removing things they like.
> 
> Right now she is reinforced for keeping the toy. Nothing good happens when she lets go. And having the toy in her possession sure beats having no toy at all, or ending the game.
> 
> Easiest way to teach an out is to make it GOOD for the dog to out. Not bad by ending the game. Trade for a higher value item, so the dog learns giving up what she has is an opportunity to get something even better in order to establish the understanding of what "out" means and the dog seeing it's a good thing to do. *Then* move onto showing her that letting go brings the prey alive again, making the game resume and things even more fun. Lock up the toy so there is no reinforcement and no fun in her holding on, and wait her out. When she lets go, play again. Not the opposite.


 (emphasis mine)

Omitting the last two sentences, the thing I took away from this is that when I remove the toy, I remove the fun. Pimg _does_ have a high food drive (that I tend to not take advantage of) when I am using a _really_ high value treat (like NB rolls). So I decided that I can work on her outs by trading her a treat for the toy. I try to be ultra-excited when she outs in order to reassure her that "the game is continuing because you let go." She still doesn't have a solid out, but I can tell you that her toy drive is increasing for sure. I can see her get amped up when I get amped up, and she really will drive for the toy. So for now, I'll continue to use treats as a "trade" and eventually try to fade them out.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Another great video! I so admire your throwing ability.. I'd have tossed the toy into the middle of the road at least 1/2 the time 

Hey! You can practice that RFP/false turn kind of thing with this exercise! It's EXACTLY the thing to take your dogs focus off one obstacle and onto you for information! 

We have to remember the dogs listen to our words last of all when we give information. Their FIRST cues is our movement and shoulder direction.

So if we are facing the 'wrong' obstacle.... even if we are backing away and saying their name, chances are they will take it.

So instead we can turn OUR SHOULDERS and turn INTO the dog. 

Perfect example to show this on your video is at 1:00 when you want the jump and for her to NOT weave. Cause though you are saying 'here' LOOK AT YOUR SHOULDERS! It doesn't matter that you are kind of doing a sidestep to pull her. Your shoulders are to the weaves and you are actually moving along the same line as if you DID want her to move.

This is an example of how for us, it's clear what we want and are saying. But not for the dog.

Instead, the RFP (reverse flow pivot thing) is perfect to give real info to our dogs and pull the attention off the thing in front of them (weaves in this case). 

What you need to do when your dog is over that jump (or earlier if they won't knock the bar) is to stop your feet moving at all and turn INTO your dog. Take your left shoulder and turn it back towards the jump your dog just went over. This is just as long as it takes for you to see your dog hesitate and LOOK at you so you can pick her up and show her where you do want to go.

Not sure I'd specifically train this move with the weaves though. At this stage you are building the love love love and the entries so don't want to muddy the training. Because they are so LONG, you'll get the attention and pick up from her initially, but when you then turn your shoulders back to go to the far jump, the middle/end of the weaves will still be there and chances are she'll still head for them. But you WOULD have pulled her from the 'wrong' entrance to a tunnel, or off an off course jump and then been past them.

If you did want to practice a happy fun 'no weaves after the jump' with the set up you had, I think I'd use a complete front cross as she goes over the jump to pick her up on your left side and then go/send her to the far jump but have her jump from left to right over the jump taking the weaves out of the picture entirely (cause they are on the other side of you).

Fantastic job on the rear crosses, she had no problem with that. Remember that we have to be 'behind' our dogs for a rear cross, and AHEAD for a front cross. Figuring out how to be in the right place is our challenge to keep the flow on the course and if we can't get in one we use the other!

HEY, now that I just watched your serpentine that's another place for the RFP thing. Backing up and calling our dogs isn't usually as helpful a skill. I know I've been taught to be ahead along MY running line for a good serpentine. So I send to the first jump and then run laterally to Jump 2 and use that RFP (turning INTO the dog just with my shoulders, actually in your setup I'd turn my right shoulder and right hand kind of back towards the first jump). So my feet would be headed to jump 3, my body should be past jump 2 looking over the cross piece at my dog, and my right shoulder/arm/hand would be turned back to jump 1! PRETZEL PERSON! It's the 2nd example from this on agility nerd.














 
Keep up all the good work!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just as a reminder, it's free to join some of the agility groups and though there is more email in my mailbox, there are some of the top trainers posting on many of them...

[email protected] is a good one, currently there is talk about the blended front cross that is so confusing the EXPERTS are chiming in to get good examples posted (Linda Mecklinberg for one).


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

As usual- a really informative post, MRL. I see exactly what you mean at 1:00 about my shoulders, and I see how a RFP could really help there. I'll have to practice that! I get how the RFP works in the serpentine, but it seems like a good way to trip yourself up. Reversing your upper body direction while your lower body continues in a different direction is not always easy. It seems that the shoulder drop accomplishes the exact same thing without being so extreme on the handler. 

I wonder if people would train the serpentine with a RFP but once the dog starts to get it- then they fade out to just a slight shoulder drop? A lot of those other cross methods seem pretty great- that is until you have a dog with any kind of speed at all. I get reminded of this nearly every class. There is a dog who is actually pretty good- very consistent. I see the handler doing a rear or front cross at a place that I didn't think of and I will tell my instructor- "Oh... that seemed smooth. That's a nice place to cross." And here response is always laughed back at me: "Yeah, until you have a dog with any kind of speed at all..."

Anywho. I think I'll make a mental note of RFP and look for places it might help me out.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I just _had_ to brag that Pimg got 12 poles tonight for the first time ever! I couldn't believe it! We came up to the set and I figured I'd send her in "just to see." I didn't think she'd actually get it, but figured it would be fun to try. She nailed it! Literally the whole class started cheering and clapping!! haha! Man that was awesome!

Crazy thing is- Pimg kinda had an off night tonight. I think she is still shaking off the anesthetic from her xrays yesterday. She was kinda out of it- didn't focus on me much, and didn't seem as focused on the equipment as usual. She feel off the dogwalk going up, and she hesitated big time on the teeter. She slept a lot yesterday (which I expected) but she seemed ok going into class. So- I say all that because someone asked me if I wanted them to record the run. I said, "No, she seems to be really having an off day today anyway. I doubt it will be exciting."

Well- exciting it was! I am so proud of my girl! First 12 poles ever!! :wild::wub:

[EDIT]- yeah, she actually fell off the dogwalk. But she was fine- wasn't phased. I didn't make a big deal of it and sent her over again. No issues that time. It was a really sharp angle- 180 directly out of a tunnel onto the dogwalk. The BC in class also fell at exactly the same spot (read- the two fastest dogs in class lost their footing). No big deal- but thought I'd mention- she's doing just fine.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

Go Pimg! Clearly you should heavily sedate her the day before your trial. :silly: (This is a joke btw)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Quite honestly- I am shocked that she is still affected by it. She seemed ok, normal energy and what not. But once we started- it was perfectly clear that she was not 100%. She seemed a lot more like 60%. My instructor was even concerned and asked me if everything was ok. I'll most certainly be very closely monitoring her the next couple days, but I'm sure it must be the anesthetic.

Thanks, by the way! It was such a happy moment in our agility career! Sucks so bad I had the opportunity to record it and declined!


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## TaraM1285 (Sep 24, 2009)

Congrats on 12 poles! It's not unusual for it to take a few days for the effects of the drugs to wear off.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Love to hear she had no trouble on the 12 poles. Great training!

BTW, another good email list to join is 

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