# Becoming a breeder the right way....I hope



## Cubano22

Hi Everyone,

Sorry for the long post just wanted to fill you in 

I have not posted in about 4 months as I really wanted to dive into research and working with a well known breeder has been the best decision I have made in a while. My last thread consisted of a lot of novice questions and I feel as though I have gained an appreciation of the breed and the history. I am now returning to post a thread to show some of the progress on the buildout of our property which will have horse boarding and dog boarding/training with a seperate 1500 square foot breeding facility. Before everyone goes and says that its a start of a puppy mill slow down haha. The plan is to only have 1-2 litters per year and the breeding facility is more to give the dogs huge indoor and outdoor runs. There are actually only 7 kennels in the building just to give an idea. I have also set up a tracking field and am working on building a full agility course. The property sits on 15 acres and has really come together in the last 4 months. Also the plan is to actually lose money with the breeding as by no means is it a way for a quick dollar. it has become more of a passion to train the Shepherds and to learn from a breeder that has been around for 50 years.

I will next go into a little bit about the two females that I currently have. First is Ava, pictures will be provided shortly, a black and red female with amazing temperament a very strong german pedigree and is working on getting ready to be titled. Prelims on hips look good as well. She will turn 2 in January. The breeder i am learning from knows the german breeders by name and has met the grandparents in person haha what a small world. The next females is Ivy, from Chicago and a big Cubs fan, who is a red sable that is 8 months old. prelims came back good and has a great prey drive. I understand that coats will change but the red on this sable was just too rich to pass up. Has a strong working class pedigree. I was very content with just having one female but the opportunity arose when I met the breeder who is now semi-retired and we came up with the idea to co own the dog. The main reason for co-owning the dog was it was a perfect scenario where I am able to learn from a highly reputable breeder and the breeder who is more concerned with legacy than making a quick buck is able to have his bloodlines in a new program which he is able to help set up. 

Ava has began Shutzhund training and wow she has really been able to pick up the tracking portion very quickly. Thats a little background about what has been going on in the last couple months. The comments made on my last thread were extremely helpful and because of it I now:
found a great breeding mentor
part of a local german shepherd club
have dove into the research more than ever
Co-own a female with the mentor to learn the ropes

I would keep rambling but I figure I will stop here and say thanks in advance to taking the time to read this.
I would greatly appreciate feedback and if you guys think I am on the right track. Feel free to ask any question and would be happy to post any pictures that are requested.


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## ipopro

Cubano22 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Sorry for the long post just wanted to fill you in
> 
> I have not posted in about 4 months as I really wanted to dive into research and working with a well known breeder has been the best decision I have made in a while. My last thread consisted of a lot of novice questions and I feel as though I have gained an appreciation of the breed and the history. I am now returning to post a thread to show some of the progress on the buildout of our property which will have horse boarding and dog boarding/training with a seperate 1500 square foot breeding facility. Before everyone goes and says that its a start of a puppy mill slow down haha. The plan is to only have 1-2 litters per year and the breeding facility is more to give the dogs huge indoor and outdoor runs. There are actually only 7 kennels in the building just to give an idea. I have also set up a tracking field and am working on building a full agility course. The property sits on 15 acres and has really come together in the last 4 months. Also the plan is to actually lose money with the breeding as by no means is it a way for a quick dollar. it has become more of a passion to train the Shepherds and to learn from a breeder that has been around for 50 years.
> 
> I will next go into a little bit about the two females that I currently have. First is Ava, pictures will be provided shortly, a black and red female with amazing temperament a very strong german pedigree and is working on getting ready to be titled. Prelims on hips look good as well. She will turn 2 in January. The breeder i am learning from knows the german breeders by name and has met the grandparents in person haha what a small world. The next females is Ivy, from Chicago and a big Cubs fan, who is a red sable that is 8 months old. prelims came back good and has a great prey drive. I understand that coats will change but the red on this sable was just too rich to pass up. Has a strong working class pedigree. I was very content with just having one female but the opportunity arose when I met the breeder who is now semi-retired and we came up with the idea to co own the dog. The main reason for co-owning the dog was it was a perfect scenario where I am able to learn from a highly reputable breeder and the breeder who is more concerned with legacy than making a quick buck is able to have his bloodlines in a new program which he is able to help set up.
> 
> Ava has began Shutzhund training and wow she has really been able to pick up the tracking portion very quickly. Thats a little background about what has been going on in the last couple months. The comments made on my last thread were extremely helpful and because of it I now:
> found a great breeding mentor
> part of a local german shepherd club
> have dove into the research more than ever
> Co-own a female with the mentor to learn the ropes
> 
> I would keep rambling but I figure I will stop here and say thanks in advance to taking the time to read this.
> I would greatly appreciate feedback and if you guys think I am on the right track. Feel free to ask any question and would be happy to post any pictures that are requested.


What have you learned from your experience with said breeder? How much time spent? Doing what?


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## Cubano22

ipopro said:


> What have you learned from your experience with said breeder? How much time spent? Doing what?


I am glad you asked. To start I will say that I met the breeder in January when just looking for a dog and I figured he was just being nice because he wanted to sell us a pup. What I learned next was how he is actually retired and runs a very small breeding program now just for friends he has known for a while. The way I was able to get in contact with him was through a customer at one of our businesses and somehow it came up. Its funny how things just sort of happen. so thats how we met and how long I have known him. As far as what i have learned is hard to just list out but Ill give it a shot. It started with a history lesson about when reading a pedigree and getting to know the breeders from Germany. he was able to show me how to pair and breed as well as sit in while a female gave birth. On top of that helping him keep the grounds clean, brush out different coats, and clean lots and lots of kennels. There is just so much information that I didn't know before about the breed before and every time I am there I learn something new. In addition he has helped me not make the same mistakes in building our facility from drainage to lighting it has been so valuable. I have not even gotten into the training aspect yet as we spend three hours or more working on tracking, obedience, agility and protection. i could go into more detail about the training methods but I hope this answers your question


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## ipopro

Cubano22 said:


> I am glad you asked. To start I will say that I met the breeder in January when just looking for a dog and I figured he was just being nice because he wanted to sell us a pup. What I learned next was how he is actually retired and runs a very small breeding program now just for friends he has known for a while. The way I was able to get in contact with him was through a customer at one of our businesses and somehow it came up. Its funny how things just sort of happen. so thats how we met and how long I have known him. As far as what i have learned is hard to just list out but Ill give it a shot. It started with a history lesson about when reading a pedigree and getting to know the breeders from Germany. he was able to show me how to pair and breed as well as sit in while a female gave birth. On top of that helping him keep the grounds clean, brush out different coats, and clean lots and lots of kennels. There is just so much information that I didn't know before about the breed before and every time I am there I learn something new. In addition he has helped me not make the same mistakes in building our facility from drainage to lighting it has been so valuable. I have not even gotten into the training aspect yet as we spend three hours or more working on tracking, obedience, agility and protection. i could go into more detail about the training methods but I hope this answers your question


Not really but it is what it is I guess.

Specifics is what will tell me if you have learned what IMO is necessary to be a quality breeder. GSD Specifics, to breeding. You could do it on an island in the middle of the jungle for all I care, as long as you know what you are doing. You could do it in an apartment in NYC does not matter to me as long as you know what you are doing and how to care for your dog(s) properly.

The specifics are the important part, knowing what they are and learning all about them.

Thanks for sharing though!


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## ipopro

I would like to make a simple suggestion. TAKE WRITTEN OR RECORDED NOTES on all training - communication you receive. (Priceless)


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## Cubano22

ipopro said:


> Not really but it is what it is I guess.
> 
> Specifics is what will tell me if you have learned what IMO is necessary to be a quality breeder. GSD Specifics, to breeding. You could do it on an island in the middle of the jungle for all I care, as long as you know what you are doing. You could do it in an apartment in NYC does not matter to me as long as you know what you are doing and how to care for your dog(s) properly.
> 
> The specifics are the important part, knowing what they are and learning all about them.
> 
> Thanks for sharing though!


As far as size specifics I am not looking to breed any oversized german shepherds and will stick with west german black and red and red sable. I know the size for males is 23-25 height and 80-85 pounds. I plan on getting a KKL for both of my females along with an IPO 1. I understand that there are the three types of coats: closed, open, and long and the different coloring. Again I am not looking to breed my two females until next spring when they are OFA tested and plan to absorb as much information as possible in that time. By no means am I saying I am an expert simply a young apprentice that wants to learn how to do it the right way. I am hoping that from what I have posted that its at least the right track. I really do appreciate the questions and comments and will pay closer attention to the specifics

And yes notes, printouts and conversations will be written down as well as pictures and videos


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## Hineni7

I think understanding genetics is hugely important.. Putting any two dogs together, even titled 'wonder dogs' does not mean a healthy or productive litter.. Knowing how certain lines compliment other lines, or hamper/damage is important - major important... This is something that takes years of study, observation and practice. But it has to be a forefront thought to be a good breeder that is making a contribution of benefit to the breed.


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## ipopro

Cubano22 said:


> As far as size specifics I am not looking to breed any oversized german shepherds and will stick with west german black and red and red sable. I know the size for males is 23-25 height and 80-85 pounds. I plan on getting a KKL for both of my females along with an IPO 1. I understand that there are the three types of coats: closed, open, and long and the different coloring. Again I am not looking to breed my two females until next spring when they are OFA tested and plan to absorb as much information as possible in that time. By no means am I saying I am an expert simply a young apprentice that wants to learn how to do it the right way. I am hoping that from what I have posted that its at least the right track. I really do appreciate the questions and comments and will pay closer attention to the specifics
> 
> And yes notes, printouts and conversations will be written down as well as pictures and videos



I give up! Good luck, I wish you all the best... LOL @ Size specifics... wow!


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## Cubano22

Hineni7 said:


> I think understanding genetics is hugely important.. Putting any two dogs together, even titled 'wonder dogs' does not mean a healthy or productive litter.. Knowing how certain lines compliment other lines, or hamper/damage is important - major important... This is something that takes years of study, observation and practice. But it has to be a forefront thought to be a good breeder that is making a contribution of benefit to the breed.


Thats a great point as the "wonder dogs" could be carriers for something that has not shown up in the three generation pedigree. The pairing of the two dogs is something I can learn as I work with the breeder and will be sure to ask questions in why he is choosing to pair certain dogs together. The pairing of two dogs as it seems is more of a science than an art I am begin to see. it seems to come down to really knowing the genetics of your dog and of the potential mate and making sure the weaknesses and strengths line up correctly. Thanks for the comment definitely something to continue to study.


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## Cubano22

ipopro said:


> I give up! Good luck, I wish you all the best... LOL @ Size specifics... wow!


How is that constructive at all? If what I stated was wrong then there is a way to correctly inform me? I still appreciate the comment and thanks for the best wishes


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## carmspack

"red on this sable was just too rich to pass up" no relevance to quality
"As far as size specifics I am not looking to breed any oversized german shepherds and will stick with west german black and red and red sable" no relevance to quality 
sounds peachy -- if you want to sell the property --- or business -- 
start with EXPERIENCE --- long long before you even think of bringing new pups into the world.

read http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html

read Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

There is so much still to learn- but sweaping the kennels, pair and breed ? sitting in on a birth ---- 
Breeding is a science and it is an art . Part you have to learn, part you have to feel and develop .
You have to have a good eye for a dog.
You MUST know what good breed temperament is . 

I'm like the member who said they wouldn't care if you were in a jungle. 
Fantastic dogs can come out of re-purposed chicken sheds ---- . That is what matters.
Those bold and daring pups , (qualities which are missing) with strong natural instincts (qualities that are missing)
with robust health and natural hardiness (qualities that are missing) with mental and physical readiness to learn and work (qualities that are missing) ---- that is what we need, that is what the breed needs .

seek out posts by Anne Kent (VANDAL) Lee Hough (WOLFSTRAUM) Cliff Anderson (CLIFF ANDERSON) - Hunter's dad - who we don't hear from anymore --- some of our foreign members etc etc 
start from there. I think you will get a different perspective from your current mentor.


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## MineAreWorkingline

I would be curious to know what you learned on your own and from your mentor on the history of the breed and the breed standard. I think those two things are critically important to making any breeding decisions.

If I were you, I would not wait until your mentor decides to do a breeding. I would be asking a lot of questions now about past breedings and why the pairs were chosen. What goals did your mentor have in mind with the breeding? Are those goals the same as what you would be trying to achieve?


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## ipopro

Cubano22 said:


> How is that constructive at all? If what I stated was wrong then there is a way to correctly inform me? I still appreciate the comment and thanks for the best wishes


I guess it's not, sorry to bother. PLEASE TAKE NOTES.:|

Let me put it this way and you might understand, nothing in your original post told me anything about your experience in becoming a breeder (nothing) zero zip zilch, nothing in your original post IMO. After asking what you learned from your experience it was next to nothing listed "As far as what i have learned is hard to just list out but Ill give it a shot" "I sat in while a female was giving birth" OK I understand Males don't give birth so if you sat in on a whelping it is a given it was a female. (What did you learn) from this experience, that it was a female? I wasn't there and could have told you that! Now do you see what I'm typing about?

I could go on and on and on but time is valuable so I won't.

Do what you do, who am I to judge? I wish you the best of luck..


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## ipopro

The way I learned is I asked every breeder I could find about every "PROBLEM" they ever had AND HOW THEY FIXED THE "PROBLEM" and took notes and studied those notes and arranged those notes and re-wrote those notes and re-read those notes and slept with those notes and referenced those notes and still had to learn more and still do to this day and I'm not even a breeder NOR DO I WANT TO BE.

The solutions are in the problems not the successes! The successes are to be learned from as well but in the problems lye the solutions.

Not sure how else to say it!


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## Castlemaid

Let's not start with the attacks and petty bickering between members. I've deleted one post so far. 

So, Cubano - what has the training you have been doing so far thaught you about drives, and dogs? Because the goal of training and titling dogs is to learn about them and become better dog people along the way - the training isn't for the dogs' benefit, but ours.


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## Castlemaid

Correction: I deleted a bunch of posts. Hmm, maybe some suspensions might save me a ton of work in the near future? 

If someone wants to learn, lets teach them, in a respectful way. it might take a LOT of repetition for some concepts to sink in, but eventually, they might.


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## lexiz

I think it's great that you're trying to learn a lot and do your best. As long as your intentions are good and you're putting 100% in your breeding business, I think you will be successful. Don't let others discourage you. Get in touch with some of the breeders that have been mentioned already so that you can get some different perspectives.  Good luck to you!


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## Cubano22

carmspack said:


> "red on this sable was just too rich to pass up" no relevance to quality
> "As far as size specifics I am not looking to breed any oversized german shepherds and will stick with west german black and red and red sable" no relevance to quality
> sounds peachy -- if you want to sell the property --- or business --
> start with EXPERIENCE --- long long before you even think of bringing new pups into the world.
> 
> read http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breeding-general/163886-iceberg-breeders.html
> 
> read Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs
> 
> There is so much still to learn- but sweaping the kennels, pair and breed ? sitting in on a birth ----
> Breeding is a science and it is an art . Part you have to learn, part you have to feel and develop .
> You have to have a good eye for a dog.
> You MUST know what good breed temperament is .
> 
> I'm like the member who said they wouldn't care if you were in a jungle.
> Fantastic dogs can come out of re-purposed chicken sheds ---- . That is what matters.
> Those bold and daring pups , (qualities which are missing) with strong natural instincts (qualities that are missing)
> with robust health and natural hardiness (qualities that are missing) with mental and physical readiness to learn and work (qualities that are missing) ---- that is what we need, that is what the breed needs .
> 
> seek out posts by Anne Kent (VANDAL) Lee Hough (WOLFSTRAUM) Cliff Anderson (CLIFF ANDERSON) - Hunter's dad - who we don't hear from anymore --- some of our foreign members etc etc
> start from there. I think you will get a different perspective from your current mentor.


I would like to begin by saying I apologize about my first post I can see that it could have been taken the wrong way I just wanted to tell you a little about myself and the dogs. Was not aware I was typing a research paper haha I am only kidding. I was just trying to make it easy and fun to read so people could just get a little background. I apologize for putting that in there. Thanks for the comment and will definitely read the threads attached. I agree I think it is valuable to take in multiple different perspectives from different people and that's the main reason for posting.


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## ipopro

Castlemaid said:


> Correction: I deleted a bunch of posts. Hmm, maybe some suspensions might save me a ton of work in the near future?
> 
> If someone wants to learn, lets teach them, in a respectful way. it might take a LOT of repetition for some concepts to sink in, but eventually, they might.



Not sure what to say. I tried to just walk away and wish all the best, then well I was criticized for doing so...


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## Hineni7

Whenever asking for information or perspectives in breeding, know that genetics (health, athleticism, longevity etc) temperament (genetics as well) will be top priority.. Color, size, gender are last on the list as you will get that either way, but good breeding will begin with knowing how to pair to get the best out of the breed.. When size or color are mentioned first, even if in error or just as the first line of thought, it is bound to ruffle feathers because so many breed for color and size over the betterment of the breed.. 

Look forward to hearing more about your breeding plan and ideas.. The lines you would like to cross and the why behind it. Doesn't make it a right or wrong (although very experienced breeders may add their perspective to help). But it sounds like you want the best for the breed and that is good


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## ipopro

I have no reason to be here other than to try and help you. If I said anything wrong in your opinion I apologize. Again, I wish you the best of luck in all you do!

Signing off!


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## Thecowboysgirl

OP, you seem to have a good attitude, even when people aren't being kind to you. I applaud you for trying to learn, finding a mentor, commiting to health clearances and titles. Is it as thorough and knowledgable as some people? Who knows, I am ot a breeder. Probably not since you aren't a breeder yet, either. But I see that you are trying.... I read posts every day on Facebook of people who just breed their dog because they and their neighbors like the dog so much.

I hope that the most experienced breeders out there are kind & willing to answer your questions and offer guidance without making you feel terrible when you make rookie mistakes (which it seems to me all rookies at anything are bound to make)

Good luck to you.


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## ipopro

Thecowboysgirl said:


> OP, you seem to have a good attitude, even when people aren't being kind to you. I applaud you for trying to learn, finding a mentor, commiting to health clearances and titles. Is it as thorough and knowledgable as some people? Who knows, I am ot a breeder. Probably not since you aren't a breeder yet, either. But I see that you are trying.... I read posts every day on Facebook of people who just breed their dog because they and their neighbors like the dog so much.
> 
> I hope that the most experienced breeders out there are kind & willing to answer your questions and offer guidance without making you feel terrible when you make rookie mistakes (which it seems to me all rookies at anything are bound to make)
> 
> Good luck to you.


OP I applaud you for wanting to breed German Shepherds. I hope that you learn what you will need to know to be a professional quality breeder and you will share that information with the rest of us who have shared information with you.

Brutal honesty is not unkind in any way, it is the very best medicine for a common illness!


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## ipopro

Castlemaid said:


> Let's not start with the attacks and petty bickering between members. I've deleted one post so far.
> 
> So, Cubano - what has the training you have been doing so far thaught you about drives, and dogs? Because the goal of training and titling dogs is to learn about them and become better dog people along the way - the training isn't for the dogs' benefit, but ours.


I would love to hear the answer to this question! As it is THE question IMO! From that we can assist, without that we are shooting in the dark!
:wink2:


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## selzer

Your mentor is retired and breeding dogs and has been doing this for 50 years or so. Without names, tell us a little about him. What lines does he focus on? What venues does he participate in? Has he gone with you to any shows, trials, seminars, club meetings? 

If he has been doing this for 50 years, then he has a lot of contacts. He is not going to be doing this for another 50 years, so now is the time to get out and about with this guy and meet the people he is working with and learn from him some of the politics in your area. There are things a breeder can tell you that books can't, things about the people in your area. They can help you avoid some problem people and help you connect with people that can help you learn. 

It sounds like you are farther along on the path to become a dog breeder than many who jump right in. Be careful not to put all your eggs in one basket. 

Saying that, I am surprised that you are starting your program with bitches that seem to be from two different lines, GSL and WL, correct me if I am wrong. The reasons this can be problematic is that, for newbies, it is tough enough to study and learn the pedigrees (the dogs, what they produce, etc., who produces well with whom, and who to avoid), with just one line of dogs. And the two groups do not share fanciers, which means, while you can do IPO with both bitches, clubs, breeders, etc -- well two different groups of people. Some of them will totally discount you if you are breeding other lines, and breeding the lines together -- GSD world political suicide. This is important because you want to find the best stud dogs to complement your bitches, and if people peg you as a working line person or as a show line person, they might not want to do business with you. 

And they're right in a way, because instead of focusing on one line, and learning what you can about those dogs, you are doing two and that's like a crash course on both. Breeding on a foundation of crash courses is kind of a train wreck. You need two mentors -- one for each line you are planning on breeding with.

First getting yourself established in one line, the venues that that line tends to favor, the people who follow that line, you can always branch out later on, usually for a purpose. 

Keep learning. The breed needs people who are willing to learn and work hard. 

To best help their customers, breeders need to learn as much as possible on the following:

Genetics and Bloodlines.
Health and diseases common in the breed
Nutrition
Whelping and Raising a litter
Behavior and Training
The GSD community in your area
Dog law and business

As a breeder, your puppy buyers will consult you on these things, and if you cannot help them out, then one of the main benefits of going the breeder route in getting their new companion is gone. 

The good news is that there is a LOT of on the job training. Puppy buyers will bring up questions that stump you eleven years later. But, that is no reason not to put the effort in to learning as much as possible. 

Good luck.


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## carmspack

how to be a breeder 101 


just like a credentialed course , minimum 5 years prior experience of ownership


this is not a turn-key type of enterprise. I had more than a few wanting to get
a-bunch-of-dogs as a start up . yup- NOPE

go out and participate with your dog in any venue , and don't be ashamed to fail
there is more to be learned through failure - the dog wasn't quite good enough - find
out why --
the dog bumbled along in work - find out why - how did you fix it - did that reveal
deficiencies that you will first of all recognize, then avoid . Were the failures on your
part - not working the dog correctly - how will you change that . You develop a feel
for dogs.
You will have a hard time selling dogs to working people if you can't gain their confidence
in what you know in what you can do.
If your venue is show - same thing get out their and have your dog judged against others of the
same group - whether that be WGSL or ASL . 


The reality is that the idea of a GSD is long gone.
The reality is that there are three distinct genetic drifts which haven't shared
a common ancestor for 40 (or more) years.


What is your idea of an ideal GSD . Show us a specimen from any era . 


I just added a beautiful American bred GSD in the Good Conformation folder http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-good-conformation-folder-5.html#post7896825


Have a look at it .


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## selzer

carmspack said:


> how to be a breeder 101
> 
> 
> just like a credentialed course , minimum 5 years prior experience of ownership
> 
> 
> this is not a turn-key type of enterprise. I had more than a few wanting to get
> a-bunch-of-dogs as a start up . yup- NOPE
> 
> go out and participate with your dog in any venue , and don't be ashamed to fail
> there is more to be learned through failure - the dog wasn't quite good enough - find
> out why --
> the dog bumbled along in work - find out why - how did you fix it - did that reveal
> deficiencies that you will first of all recognize, then avoid . Were the failures on your
> part - not working the dog correctly - how will you change that . You develop a feel
> for dogs.
> You will have a hard time selling dogs to working people if you can't gain their confidence
> in what you know in what you can do.
> If your venue is show - same thing get out their and have your dog judged against others of the
> same group - whether that be WGSL or ASL .
> 
> 
> The reality is that the idea of a GSD is long gone.
> The reality is that there are three distinct genetic drifts which haven't shared
> a common ancestor for 40 (or more) years.
> 
> 
> What is your idea of an ideal GSD . Show us a specimen from any era .
> 
> 
> I just added a beautiful American bred GSD in the Good Conformation folder http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...2-good-conformation-folder-5.html#post7896825
> 
> 
> Have a look at it .


Carmen's right. You can't just read and research, you have to do. You have to become known in a venue by doing with your dog. And yes, we learn more from our failures than when things go like clockwork.


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## ipopro

selzer said:


> Carmen's right. You can't just read and research, you have to do. You have to become known in a venue by doing with your dog. And yes, we learn more from our failures than when things go like clockwork.


I love serious dedicated GSD owners. Carmen if I could I would reach out and shake your hand. It hurts me to see what people are doing to the breed, it hurts me deep in my heart! The way the whole thread started was like a knife in my heart twisting and turning which led me to ask the question and make the statements I did. Which I was lhbclbhlb for doing because some were offended. TY Carmen for sharing this with the OP. TY for loving the breed... TY TY TY you also Slezer you get it and I'm so glad to see it.

I was so hoping the response to my question was 
1.
2
3
4
5
6
7
But it wasn't and went down hill from there!


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## Honeybee1999

Do you people really think that laughing at and ridiculing those who come here for information is the best way to educate future breeders? You do realize that people will go ahead with their plans anyway, even if you try to make them feel 3 inches tall, right? Why not respectfully impart your knowledge and wisdom, or gently lead them to sources of knowledge instead of being snarky and rude? 

OP I commend your efforts to learn from a breeder and to health test and title your dogs. I suggest diversifying your experiences and learn from as many different sources and breeders as you can. 

Our breed needs educated, serious, and dedicated breeders. They are all too rare among the backyard breeders who put their GSD with their neighbors' because they want to make some cash from the litter.

We need to encourage the next generation of people who want to improve the breed.

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## selzer

Honeybee1999 said:


> Do you people really think that laughing at and ridiculing those who come here for information is the best way to educate future breeders? You do realize that people will go ahead with their plans anyway, even if you try to make them feel 3 inches tall, right? Why not respectfully impart your knowledge and wisdom, or gently lead them to sources of knowledge instead of being snarky and rude?
> 
> OP I commend your efforts to learn from a breeder and to health test and title your dogs. I suggest diversifying your experiences and learn from as many different sources and breeders as you can.
> 
> Our breed needs educated, serious, and dedicated breeders. They are all too rare among the backyard breeders who put their GSD with their neighbors' because they want to make some cash from the litter.
> 
> We need to encourage the next generation of people who want to improve the breed.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk


Melissa, some kindly admistrators and moderators came onto this post weeks ago, and cleaned up some of the typical unhelpful attitudes that are going to happen when this topic comes up. 

What is left, what you are commenting on, is about the most polite and informative answers one can hope for, and you are trying to smack us around? We that have posted have experience with what this guy wants, and are spending a lot of time and thought in giving him suggestions. 

I can only believe that you are wanting to stir the pot because you have nothing better to do today.


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## Honeybee1999

I apologize for the tone of my earlier post. I was having a bad morning, and took it out on an internet post where it appeared to me that someone who is legitimately trying to learn was being ridiculed. Again, I'm sorry for my earlier attitude. I am not a breeder, but have recently been through the arduous process of weeding out bad breeders to choose my current puppy, and would really like to see more people who care about the breed learn about breeding the right way.

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## TEZPUR1976

Being student of the breed is very important. 

"...Kennel blindness is a hard disease to cure..." quote by Ingrid strom in a interview to Indian kennel Gazette, is true for any breed and any prospective breeder.

Our breed is now split into two types, viz. Working and Show-line (within show line the the WGSL and American show lines are entirely different).

So one needs to be very clear in the head with his/her breeding goal.


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## wolfstraum

The best way to learn about this breed is to train SEVERAL dogs of different lines to titles....to study pedigrees of every dog you see that you can get your hands on.....to go to trials - local, regional, national - and study the dogs, the pedigrees and to talk to many breeders, and try to put together the info you gather to the dogs you see and pedigrees you study......

I don't think you can do this in a year.

It is great that you have the resources to put together an impressive facility. I wish I had that facility and the financial resources behind it    Unfortunately, too many people mistake a fancy physical plant for quality and knowledge......see Carmen's post.....I seriously think it takes years to even start to recognize and understand what makes a good dog, and what risks are inherent in a breeding....two or three litters a year is NOT a "small" or a hobby breeder....that is 10 to 20 puppies to place responsibly in homes that are appropriate for each individual puppy.....another task that is NOT easy.....it also takes years and litters that produce dogs who get titled to start to attract customers who are educated in the breed and who want a puppy from YOU specifically.....


This will take alot more than a year if you want to "do it right" - breeding is much much more than building a facility.... 


Lee


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## selzer

Of course if you wait until you have all the experience, set up, time, and have studied the breed and pedigrees until you are ready, then you will be too old to physically keep up with all the training and work involved. And, you will still be a novice because, you really can't read a book about some of this stuff and be an expert. It takes hands-on experience. You have to get your feet wet, prove to some people that you are serious, before you can even get the information that you will find you need. 

I agree with training dogs and working with dogs of different lines. And certainly, as a breeder you have to become somewhat an expert on training and behavior. And, yes it doesn't happen overnight. But when you are done learning, you might as well throw in the towel on breeding as well. 

Breeding is constant improvement. Breeders have to suck up knowledge about their dogs, the breed, other dogs, like sponges. They have to try new things, and learn from them. Yes it is good to begin with a solid foundation. But with anything, the more you learn, the more you learn you need to know.


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## Deb

And sometimes you have to admit you aren't going anywhere with what you have in your dogs and start all over.


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## lhczth

If you want to learn and put in the effort, it won't take a lifetime. Problem is most people are lazy and want to just start making puppies. Spend the time. The breed will be better off in the long run.


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## CarrieJo

My advise is to find a great breeder to take you under their wing. 

When I started bird breeding I found it very hard to find anyone to really teach me or even talk to me about it. Everyone wanted to keep things a secrete. I was lucky enough to find someone who shared everything with me nutrition, what really to look out for. There where hours upon hours of teaching. Honestly more like years of learning. She actually became my very best friend. She died today. We where very good friends of over 10 years. 

She used to be a pet store owner in a small town and she learned quite a bit from the vet that was nearby. People that are in it for the money you do not even want to speak to them. They will more likely take shortcuts trying to make a buck instead of trying to do what is best for the breed and overall health of not only your breeders but your babies as well. 

I know nothing of breeding dogs. I do know the extreme about of hours I spent doing things the right way. Not the cost efficient way. I have even spent quite a bit of money on books that Avian vets use. Good books are rarely cheap and hard to get especially with birds. 

Not to mention the equipment that was needed and the willingness to get up and feed a baby bird every hour on the hour when first born when a new set of bird parents didn't seem to be feeding their babies. Staying up till 2 or 3 in the morning dealing with an egg bound breeder searching all over the internet for a good video to show how to do it right because my dear friend was in another state. 
It takes 3 generations to breed out nutritionally caused diseases so you have to start with the healthiest and keep them that way. 

No matter how long or how much you think you have learned there are so many variables that go on when things can, will, and do go wrong. It is not an idea to take on lightly it will consume your life more than a full time job sometimes for months. Which means you can't be free to go off to see someone or take a vacation if things are needed during that time. You have to have someone besides just you that you can count on if you get sick or just need to go out once and a while. That person for me was my daughter. I would trust her with any bird I had hand-feeding and that is saying something because you can easily kill them if you send their food down the wrong pipe. One of them is for air and one to the crop. And guess what talk to enough breeders and you will find that sometimes their pipes are opposite and if you do not go slow at the beginning so you can see which way it is going down you could end up killing the baby.

YEA YEA birds not dogs. My belief was if I was going to breed them I was going to do it right. Fresh veggies, apple-cider vinegar in their water everyday just to name a few. The passion and energy you will spend if you love them and want to do right by them take what you think it will take and multiply it a few times. There is a lot to things and some you have to learn as you go. Trust your gut when you are not sure. Because no one seems to have an emergency during the day always in the middle of the night when you are all alone trying to save a life. 

The more people that will open up and show you what and how's they do will help you learn what to try and what to stay away from. 

Just really think about it in ten years how old and what part of life will you be in? Because it takes time getting a great reputation just to find yourself in a different phase of life where you might need to quit when you are just getting going. 

Now if after thinking about this you are still considering it I would really check into learning about feeding them the raw diet. That I know nothing of.


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## TEZPUR1976

OP: If you are thinking of becoming a show line breeder. Read the
The German Shepherd Dog - Welcome to my Website - The German Shepherd Dog articles from
Louis is an SV judge and a great ambassador of the breed. He has explained the engineering of the anatomy of a gsd.

Read and read his articles again and again and train your eyes on the all the show dogs you can come across.

For a show line breeder anatomy is the most important objective.

However, if you want to go for working line breeding there is no way other than enrolling for a dog trainer's program. Then you need an experienced mentor.


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## Moriah

CarrieJo said:


> My advise is to find a great breeder to take you under their wing.
> 
> When I started bird breeding I found it very hard to find anyone to really teach me or even talk to me about it. Everyone wanted to keep things a secrete. I was lucky enough to find someone who shared everything with me nutrition, what really to look out for. There where hours upon hours of teaching. Honestly more like years of learning. She actually became my very best friend. She died today. We where very good friends of over 10 years.
> 
> She used to be a pet store owner in a small town and she learned quite a bit from the vet that was nearby. People that are in it for the money you do not even want to speak to them. They will more likely take shortcuts trying to make a buck instead of trying to do what is best for the breed and overall health of not only your breeders but your babies as well.
> 
> I know nothing of breeding dogs. I do know the extreme about of hours I spent doing things the right way. Not the cost efficient way. I have even spent quite a bit of money on books that Avian vets use. Good books are rarely cheap and hard to get especially with birds.
> 
> Not to mention the equipment that was needed and the willingness to get up and feed a baby bird every hour on the hour when first born when a new set of bird parents didn't seem to be feeding their babies. Staying up till 2 or 3 in the morning dealing with an egg bound breeder searching all over the internet for a good video to show how to do it right because my dear friend was in another state.
> It takes 3 generations to breed out nutritionally caused diseases so you have to start with the healthiest and keep them that way.
> 
> No matter how long or how much you think you have learned there are so many variables that go on when things can, will, and do go wrong. It is not an idea to take on lightly it will consume your life more than a full time job sometimes for months. Which means you can't be free to go off to see someone or take a vacation if things are needed during that time. You have to have someone besides just you that you can count on if you get sick or just need to go out once and a while. That person for me was my daughter. I would trust her with any bird I had hand-feeding and that is saying something because you can easily kill them if you send their food down the wrong pipe. One of them is for air and one to the crop. And guess what talk to enough breeders and you will find that sometimes their pipes are opposite and if you do not go slow at the beginning so you can see which way it is going down you could end up killing the baby.
> 
> YEA YEA birds not dogs. My belief was if I was going to breed them I was going to do it right. Fresh veggies, apple-cider vinegar in their water everyday just to name a few. The passion and energy you will spend if you love them and want to do right by them take what you think it will take and multiply it a few times. There is a lot to things and some you have to learn as you go. Trust your gut when you are not sure. Because no one seems to have an emergency during the day always in the middle of the night when you are all alone trying to save a life.
> 
> The more people that will open up and show you what and how's they do will help you learn what to try and what to stay away from.
> 
> Just really think about it in ten years how old and what part of life will you be in? Because it takes time getting a great reputation just to find yourself in a different phase of life where you might need to quit when you are just getting going.
> 
> Now if after thinking about this you are still considering it I would really check into learning about feeding them the raw diet. That I know nothing of.


What type of birds were you breeding?


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## Deb

When I wanted to be an obedience instructor and to teach herding, because I had done it with my dogs and loved, I became an apprentice. Old fashioned word, but it is what it is. When I got into the dog show scene, I found several people to help me. First and foremost, you have to be open about wanting to do it the right way and open to listening and following what they tell you. My openness to doing it the right way had people putting their dogs up on tables and going over them, showing me what was correct and what needed to be improved, etc.. Having a great facility is nice, but you'll find most keep their dogs in their house, their pets, not just something for breeding. Some get the point where they need the facility, it's then gone beyond the hobby sport and into a business. But the good ones are still out there training and competing. They don't get to this point in time until they have proven themselves and have a track record of doing a very good job in what they do. Basically, you're putting the cart before the horse. I'd suggest to slow down, live with your dogs, train your dogs, don't worry about breeding and a facility yet. If you work and train and gain the respect of the others working in the field with you when it's time to breed they'll help you. Eventually, if you do it right, you'll need that facility, but now is not the time. JMHO


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## Thecowboysgirl

I used to breed goats. Bought some breeding stock before I really knew what I was doing and regretted it later. My advice would be don't get any dogs you intend to breed before you take steps to learn from others, if that makes sense. Unless you have room ability and willingness to keep them and not use them in your program if they don't pan out.


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## CarrieJo

parrotlets (all kinds of colors), green cheeks (turquoise, pineapple, yellow sided, normals), sun conures (my favorite), Quakers (blue, green, pallids), parakeets, peach faced lovebirds, cockatiels (mainly whiteface mutations). Keep wondering if I am missing anyone?

Believe me it sounds like a lot and at one point there where a lot of birds (had a pair of parrotlets that would eat all their vegetables but not their peas) funny reminded me of kids.

I grew fresh veggies, sprouted for them just to mention a few things. It has been a while. My husband's health slowed things to a near halt and now mine has made it complete. 

I learned a whole lot being under-someone who really did her research and learned from her not to mention the local pet store lady was also wonderful helping when I wasn't sure of something. Taking their experience and adding my own really helped me to not make some mistakes that could have been very bad had I not learned so much before starting. I started with a pair of cockatiels and slowly as I learned more added different ones. 

Made sure I had brooders to keep the babies warm when pulled, enough moisture in the brooder to keep them healthier. And NEVER EVER EVER bought any stock I did not know was perfectly safe. There are so many airborne germs and diereses enough to drive a person crazy. 

If you even have birds in different rooms if they share a central ac unit guess what you are still exposing your birds during quarantine time. I still could never ever had done it if it wasn't for my oldest daughter she loved the parrotlets so I gave them to her to help me with feedings so I could still get out once in a while. I would trust her with a prized baby bird hand feeding without worry. She really picked it up well and it is not easy hand feeding baby parrotlets. Think parakeet and think smaller much smaller. 

My friend spent literately years teaching me as I went also something always arises and there is nothing like having someone you can call no matter what time it is to just be sure you are thinking on the right lines. I have learned to tube feed (I DO NOT LIKE IT BUT WHEN YOU FIND YOUR FEMALE EGG BOUND AND EXHAUSTED you first hydrate her then tube feed her a little food to get her energy up) Things where always easier when it was a bird I raised because mine would take food from the syringe. Then after much prayer and time to regain strength I got her un-eggbound. Again something that happens at 2 am. 

Bought several avian vet books not the kind you can just pick up in a store. Been to see GIANT bird breeding facilities, while they where keeping everything clean and such I would NEVER allow myself to get that big, Babies need more one on one time to really be sweet and tame and you cannot get it if there is no time for it. Was also lucky enough to have vistied a man who had prized cockatiels with walls of awards on his walls. Would have loved to have learned a thing or two back in his day when he was in his prime. 

I sure did enjoy all the birds that came and went and all the happy families that came and went as well. Had a person who bought a cockatiel from me after having a tame cockatiel die call me up 2 or 3 days later telling me she just couldn't believe how tame my baby was but she said she didn't think I would do well breeding because I was so attached to them I told her no I am just going to be picky who I am willing to sell to and have been known to tell someone no before. The birds had a right to be in a good home and I had a responsibility to do the best I could do to see that that happened. 

It is nice to know if I ever wanted to I could raise one straight out of the nest if I wanted to, but I will never ever ever again take one out at 3 weeks again. Did that once against the advice of my friend because too much was happening over here and it was hard on the baby and me seeing her scared and I wouldn't put a baby through that again.


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