# I just found the strongest pedigree in the history of the breed!!



## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Stud Dogs - Kolenda Kennels

"VA Irsus Veracruz IPO2 SchH3 Kkl 1a,L.B.Z.,DNA ZW Koered for Life 
Irsus is the son of 2X World Sieger VA1 Larus von Batu and
Grandson of 2X World Sieger VA1 Yasko vom Farbenspiel
Great-Grandson of World Seiger VA1 Ursus von Batu.
*This is the strongest pedigree in the History of the Breed!*"


Just wondering, what makes this dog the strongest ever. Why would they breed him to two females in the past year that have no titles? Wouldn't you want to mate the strongest male with an awesome female to produce some super puppies? I have literally no idea what the titles mean, so please get rid of my ignorance and tell me...is this dog really the strongest ever ? or does he just have a pretty good pedigree?

I'm interested in getting my next puppy (from a REP. breeder this time!) within the next three years, and I am starting to try to educate myself on whether a dog is really as good as the websites claim. (I have seen a few webpages that claim to have the best german shepherds with the best temperament but none of the dogs have any titles but AKC) 

I get confused when the dog has a few titles and the website talks all about their parents, grandparents, and great grandparents. Which REALLY matters? And should I make sure BOTH of the parents are titled? Why wouldn't a breeder title all the dogs?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

might want to ask a mod to move this up into the breeding section. a lot of the more knowledgeable people will see it there


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Because they say it is


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Irsus is one of 282 offspring of Larus that are entered in the Pedigree Database - there could be more, but they are not listed on there.
Progency list for 2X VA1 Larus von Batu - German Shepherd Dog, 
so he shares part of his strongest pedigree with at least 282 others. 

I don't know why his pedigree would be the strongest, and not that of his 281 half-siblings? 

Pedigree database lists an FH3 title on Irsus that your kennel link does not. If they want to impress potential customers, they should; an FH3 is VERY impressive (very advanced tracking title).


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

It's just a nice stud dog with a fatherline from Ursus.
Good pedigree...but not "The strongest pedigree in the world".....just a good, solid WGSL pedigree.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSDElsa said:


> Because they say it is


Yep, lol.

I would say when you are examining potential breeders and they make such claims on their web site it is fair to ask how often THEY are actually showing and titling their dogs? I just read through the entire roster for the upcoming WDA North American Sieger Show and don't see a single dog from that kennel listed. Also I am a nerd who reads *all* of the show and trial results and I don't recall seeing more than one or two total in USCA show and trial results in the past several months. But 6+ litters per month....


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Thanks for the quick replies guys!

One more question --


If a dog is going to be bred that has multiple, very impressive titles but his parents only had one title, say SCH3 or even only CGC, what do I think of that?

I'm thinking that maybe the person who purchased this dog didn't own either of the parents, but went on to train this dog fantastically...and obviously the dog turned out very well to get all these titles.

Would it be a bad decision to get a puppy from two dogs that had this situation (parents with single titles)?

I know that the parents have a huge effect on temperament but how much of an effect do the grandparents have on the puppies?

Thanks for the silly questions!


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Stud Dogs - Kolenda Kennels
> 
> "VA Irsus Veracruz IPO2 SchH3 Kkl 1a,L.B.Z.,DNA ZW Koered for Life
> Irsus is the son of 2X World Sieger VA1 Larus von Batu and
> ...


Sundance was no slouch.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Not really sure about show line dogs but they look like nice looking dogs. I think it is kind of silly to make outlandish claims like this. I don't think it is really necessary to do this for your dogs to sell if they really are THAT good.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I'm thinking that maybe the person who purchased this dog didn't own either of the parents, but went on to train this dog fantastically...and obviously the dog turned out very well to get all these titles.


The site the dog is on now, these people did not breed the dog, did not own the parents. They probably purchased it as an adult, already titled, or as a younger dog and paid someone else to get it titled. This is very common with west German show line dogs like this. It is rare to find a dog that is "BHOT" (breeder-handler-owner-trained meaning the dog is trained and titled BY the breeder who is also the owner).

Personally I do not buy dogs based on the titles of the grandparents. I do consider the grandparents, yes, but not just because of their titles or lack of titles.

There are hundreds of nice stud dogs out there with the same titles and same titles on their parents and grandparents as this dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Instead of looking at the titles on the dogs the breeder is boasting about, look at what they are producing. Usually the kennel will pop up in a google search, and you can read about accomplishments/titles,etc thru links that are posted on the web.
The link you posted has several litters on the ground at once, so there should be widespread representation of that kennel name. 

Sometimes smaller kennels with no website are better than the ones with all the flash and google hits.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I think it is most important to figure out what is important to you. If you want to compete in conformation, then having parents who are competitive and successful in the competition ring is important. If you want to compete in schutzhund, you might care most how the parents and grandparents themselves work/compete. If something else is your goal, then you might find something else most relevant.

Define what is important to you--that's what will matter the most.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Larus sired 700 puppies in 152 litters in Germany from June 2002 through January 2006. That is less than 4 years. I am guessing the dog died at a fairly young age, went sterile or he was sold off (because he wasn't producing or was producing health issues). He was a very average producer of hips despite being bred to females with better ZW ratings from himself.


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## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

I believe larus was sold to China for an exorbitant sum.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Ursus himself was a very good producer of both males & females.
Yasko (from Ursus) also a very good producer and of both sexes.
Larus.....*the buck stopped here* He (overall) produced better females than males...but never produced the same quality in temperament or structure, as his father & grandfather did. I was never impressed by Larus himself either.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And if he was sold, it was for a reason. Reasons that Robin just noted.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Hav's pedigree is similar but no Larus, Ursus, Yasko and Yak therefore I declare that he has the strongest pedigree EVAH and I will double his price.

I don't know much about pedigrees but as others have mentioned, these dogs were strong producers with tons of progeny and are heavily represented in WGSL.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Strongest by what measure? The number of VA dogs with in the last 4 generations? Come on! What if I don't care about that but want to see the most WUSV Competitors or the most KNVP titled dogs in the pedigree. These types of claims are very subjective.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Strongest by what measure? The number of VA dogs with in the last 4 generations? Come on! What if I don't care about that but want to see the most WUSV Competitors or the most KNVP titled dogs in the pedigree. These types of claims are very subjective.


Consider the source...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I just amazed myself with "prices" off the website.
I *really* need to become more business oriented.....and increase my prices. LOL!
Perhaps...people* want* to pay more? There are many breeders charging astronomical prices.....it seems to be the norm now.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

7 confirmed pregnant females...I sure hope they find homes for all those _amazing_ pups!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> 7 confirmed pregnant females...I sure hope they find homes for all those _amazing_ pups!


 its like a fancy high dollar puppy mill!


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Errr.... is the dog on the right (female) stacked strangly or does it need a potty break before official picture taken? 

Michigan German Shepherd For Sale in Michigan German Shepherd Breeders in Michigan


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

lol not sure the answer to that looks like she needed a better stay or a potty break... I had never gone to their website before but geesh. Personally any breeder that makes statements to boost themselves I just don't go along with its like an infomercial that tells you "buy in the next 10 minutes before supplies run out for 10 minutes we will give you a special discount" however their website at all times has the same pricing and that commercial comes on in another hour with the same discount... just irks me. Plus if you read through the site something says they are the place all the veterinarians recommend.. since when has a vet recommended a breeder? not very often unless they are in their pockets..hmmmm


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

all marketing hype. this breeder is a very, very, large commercial operation and is well known in this area. since the board does not allow negtive comments in the public parts of the forum, i'm not able to post anything more here. pm me if you need further information.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Stud Dogs - Kolenda Kennels
> 
> "VA Irsus Veracruz IPO2 SchH3 Kkl 1a,L.B.Z.,DNA ZW Koered for Life
> Irsus is the son of 2X World Sieger VA1 Larus von Batu and
> ...


Nothing. ROFL!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> I just amazed myself with "prices" off the website.
> I *really* need to become more business oriented.....and increase my prices. LOL!
> Perhaps...people* want* to pay more? There are many breeders charging astronomical prices.....it seems to be the norm now.


Didn't you know that only expensive dogs are worthwhile?


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

There is a weird psychology to how much people are willing to spend. Some think that expensive means exclusive. I wonder if that played into the return of the $7,500.00 import that was returned. 

I have a friend who makes hats. She doubled her prices and sold more. Her hats were too expensive for one type of buyer but her prices implied cheapness (as in shoddy material and poorly made) to the more affluent customers. Her hats are fantastic and she was undervaluing her work.

All dogs are expensive in the long run. I spent $250.00 on a toe this week! Plus we have to consult with Fel's oncologist about the toe.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

blehmannwa said:


> There is a weird psychology to how much people are willing to spend. Some think that expensive means exclusive. I wonder if that played into the return of the $7,500.00 import that was returned.
> 
> I have a friend who makes hats. She doubled her prices and sold more. Her hats were too expensive for one type of buyer but her prices implied cheapness (as in shoddy material and poorly made) to the more affluent customers. Her hats are fantastic and she was undervaluing her work.
> 
> All dogs are expensive in the long run. I spent $250.00 on a toe this week! Plus we have to consult with Fel's oncologist about the toe.


See you have 19 more to go.. thats 5,000 just for toes.. I can't see why I breeder would chage 7500 for a dog.. I mean you have to buy from a reputable breeder and at 250 a toe 7500 is a steal :rofl:


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

Good point. It's like the fat, fat cat that I saw at the shelter. I had to point out that it was a bargain as it was cheaper per pound.


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