# Cesar Millan thoughts on Michael Vick



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Just today Cesar released a blog post about his thoughts on Michael Vick. It's an interesting read. One thing that I found very interesting is how Cesar compares our inability to forgive/forget human errors to our ability to forgive/forget dogs' errors while we rehabilitate them. Do you think there is validity to comparing the application of our emotions across species?

I know there are a million threads on BOTH Michael Vick _and_ Cesar Millan, but I haven't seen a thread with Cesar's thoughts on Vick... The poll is just a fun extra.

Read Cesar's thoughts here: A Second Chance for Michael Vick? | www.cesarsway.com

He also took a poll which I thought would be fun to do here:


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## whisperwill (Jul 20, 2011)

I chose " a good first step, but a long way to go". I truly think that anyone can change, and deserves the opportunity to do so. However, my problem is the severity of his actions. It wasn't JUST dog fighting (which is horrendous all by itself), but his other actions, like drowing and electrocuting dogs that lost, that make his actions harder to ever forgive.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

*This thread's intention:

*To discuss Cesar's thoughts on Vick. The intention of the thread is _not_ to discuss the poll. As stated, the poll was just for fun. We have a bazillion threads on "should we forgive Vick."

(No offense, whisperwill- I should have stated this when I created the thread. I forgot.)


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

I chose the "good first step, but a long way to go" option. I agree with Mr. Milan on this one. People can change, I'm willing to give the benefit of a doubt.
Hopefully I'm staying on topic?

As for comparing it to forgiving dogs, dogs *are* much more innocent than humans and easier to forgive. At least to me they are. They don't really have an understanding of right and wrong. Humans do, and often they choose to do wrong anyways.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I chose "Impossible To Forgive Him For What He Did" I couldn't possibly forgive someone that not only killed dogs but tortured them in such terrible ways.

He is a monster, a sick individual and I dont think he should be free to walk amongst us.

He said he didn't know he was doing anything wrong, so organizing this dog fight, finding a secure location, telling people to keep their mouths shut and not spill the beans about the location and what was going on, he didn't think anything was wrong there? I dont believe it and I dont buy it, if you think that it is ok to torture ANYTHING, then you are a sick freak and you should be put away. 

oops! Sorry.

I HIGHLY disagree with Cesar. HIGHLY Disagree.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I agree with Cesar that Vick should be forgiven. We should forgive him, we should move on, we should commend him for his new stance against dog fighting. . . . and he should never be allowed to own a dog.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Publicity stunt for both parties.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Lilie said:


> Publicity stunt for both parties.


ohhhhhhhh.... now _that's_ interesting! For Vick, I wouldn't necessarily disagree. 

But wouldn't you say (whether you like him or not) that Cesar has a LOT to lose by issuing public support for Vick, if in fact it's ever proven that Vick hasn't changed a bit?

For the present, sure- it might be good publicity for Cesar, but it _could_ most certainly backfire down the road. That's a *risky* publicity stunt, don't you think?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

True Willy. But there are a lot more people jumping on the 'Dog Whisperer' ban wagon. Lots of 'trainers' throwing their hat into the ring. New programs, books etc. Bad publicity is still publicity. 

If Vick fails or is found to be a fraud then Cesar can come across as shocked and dismayed, hurt by mankind. A book can be written...etc...etc...Those who follow Cesar follow him hook line and sinker.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

wildo said:


> Just today Cesar released a blog post about his thoughts on Michael Vick. It's an interesting read. *One thing that I found very interesting is how Cesar compares our inability to forgive/forget human errors to our ability to forgive/forget dogs' errors while we rehabilitate them.* Do you think there is validity to comparing the application of our emotions across species?
> 
> I know there are a million threads on BOTH Michael Vick _and_ Cesar Millan, but I haven't seen a thread with Cesar's thoughts on Vick... The poll is just a fun extra.
> 
> ...


Forgetting and trusting ADULTS who make mistakes (especially big ones) should be harder because they have the ability to reason and make choices foreseeing the consequences. This part of the brain is not developed in children, and I don't know if it really exists in dogs, and if it does I'm sure not to the extent of a human adult. I don't think they are the same. When Vick decided to fight dogs he knew what the consequences to the dogs would be, and chose to do it anyway. Could he be truly sorry? Maybe so; I really don't know. I would say that someone who behaves in such a way deserves any skepticism he gets until there has been a long standing change in his behavioral pattern. When dogs fight it is reactionary; it is not a thought out thing, it is a reaction to something (valid or invalid). So if a dog bites a person he does not say to himself "Hmm...now if I bit this person's arm he will need approximately 12 stitches and may never trust dogs again" The dog sees a perceived threat and uses the tools it has to deal with the situation. So I do not believe you can compare the two.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

NO! I do not forgive him. Rehabbing a dog is not comparable to rehabbing a human. Swinging dogs over your head and bashing their skulls onto concrete and hooking live dogs to car batteries and throwing them into a pool is not something you fix by showing up for a few events and speaking out against cruelty.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know. 

I do think a child that grows up without anyone who values him, believes in him, might make some choices people with a different history would find appalling. And given the right set of circumstances, perhaps a chance to succeed, and success in something, and then perhaps just one person who is willing to trust him, take a chance on him, I think that it is possible for a change in character to come about. 

The problem with Michael Vick is that we have a guy who is on top of the world, in a place where most of us would give our i-teeth and a whole lot more to be. If one could sell one's soul to the devil, to be a professional quarterback in a winning team, for some people, yeah, they would do it. Money, Fame, Glory, Hero-worship -- you name it, you cannot get much higher than quarterback on a winning professional football team. It is a height most of us cannot even imagine. And he throws the whole of it away for what? To fight dogs? Are you kidding me? Only lowlife scum of the earth would do such a thing. 

Recreational drugs -- I feel the same way about. If you are on the fringes of society, scraping by, not smart, not talented, no one that you really want to impress or who will be proud of you, and you try something that makes you feel something different -- I guess I can understand that, I can pity the person. But a professional ball player has the world on a string. They need to be taking care of their body and mind to be on their game. They made it, there is simply no reason for them to be screwing with poison. 

So throw it all away, for dog fighting, or for drugs. I think that we could be more forgiving, give a second chance to such a one who pops his wife a death blow in a fit of passion. There would be anger and sadness and tragedy all around, and the guy should go to prison, but when he gets out, which would you give a job to? Someone who lost control and caused someone to die, or someone who deliberately participated many times in an illegal racket without the excuses of poverty, hopelessness, etc. 

I don't know, you can forgive Cesar for running across the border. You can forgive him for making it big -- that is what people come here to do, the land of opportunity. Only losers wish to strip people of their success rather than aspiring to that level themselves. But it is not morally wrong to try to get ahead. If you can manage to do so without hurting other people in the process, I guess you are ahead of the game. Stretching a few laws along the way -- well, we CAN be understanding. And his giving back seems genuine. (It doesn't make him better than others, or make him a great trainer, or have the best methods.)

As for Michael Vick. He lost money, he lost time in prison, did his time, and should be able to go on with his life, and I wish everyone would stop making him a poster child, or give him the time of day for that matter. If I was in control of a news station, I would not print anything to do with him, except the stats on the ball game. If he wants to push a bill in congress, fine. But I wouldn't want to give him any press over it. 

I am kind of ticked at the NFL. Not just Michael Vick, but people who have deliberately committed stupid acts that make the whole organization look like a bunch of thugs. I think they should have a policy that says that ANY criminal offense at the level of felony should put an end to the career. Clean up the NFL, and make it a sport of professionals. There are enough good guys out there to fill the slots. We do not NEED thugs. When someone throws it all away to take recreational drugs or participate in dog-fighting, they should indeed throw it all away. They should come out working their way up flipping hamburgers or working at a coin laundry. "This is your life -- This is your life now, Stupid! Any questions?"

ETA:
2015: Hey what ever happened to Michael Vick?
Who? 
Michael Vick that Minnesota Quarterback.
Oh him, yeah he went to prison dog fighting I heard.
He still in?
No, last I heard his sister was letting him live in her cellar, he's working at some gas station. 
Oh.

-- End of story.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Our ability to forgive humans, our ability to forgive dogs. I think that speaks on _our ability. _It is not really cross species. I think though that humans can forgive creatures whose level of comprehension and emotional span is more child-like or completely separate from human, a whole lot easier than someone who shares our genus and spieces. To take that further, I find it easier to forgive men than women. I know that isn't politically correct, or is sexist or something, but I take it personally, actually am insulted by women who commit henous acts. I share things in common with women, and do not provide them with as many excuses as I allow for men. I have found this to be true in the work force. Women are worse than men in management toward women. They are often much easier on the men under them, and have higher expectations/demands on the women. If you recognize it you can work at trying not to be that way. I noticed it with the Casey Anthony thing, if she was the father, not the mother, I would not have been out for his blood in the same way. I would have hoped they cought him and put him in prison, but I think I would have made allowances for him that I could not make for the mother.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

If it were my dog or dogs that Vick tortured and killed then I would not forgive him. His offense was unforgivable.
Since they weren't my dogs then it's not my job to forgive him. As for condemning him, Heck yes.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Stereotypes can be very tough.


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Cesar's comments appear genuine and true. What Vick did seemed horrendous to us, but (and this is not a defense) he was probably raised in a way that such behavior was not considered abhorrent, much like I don't think twice about stepping on a cockroach. Has Vick learned now that his upbringing was wrong, his behavior uncivilized and criminal? If he has, and he is sincere, good for him. This was the point Cesar made and I applaud him for it.

Having said all that, you don't give a pedophile a babysitting job, and Vick should never own a dog again.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

People are free to make choices, dogs aren't. This Vick character was (is) making big bucks as a football 'star'. As such he was (is) a role model for many people. These are not the types of role models I wish to support.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

No pro athelete should ever be a role model for your kids - if they are, then they have other problems.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Shilohsmom, codmaster- Let's keep it on topic. The topic of Vick is _obviously_ heated even still. This thread is NOT to discuss that topic. Let's discuss Cesar's thoughts on Vick. 

Thanks for playing.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

wildo said:


> Shilohsmom, codmaster- Let's keep it on topic. The topic of Vick is _obviously_ heated even still. This thread is NOT to discuss that topic. Let's discuss Cesar's thoughts on Vick.
> 
> Thanks for playing.


Yup, I went astray too, sorry. 
I guess the poll leads you to believe the topic is one thing but the OP's original post asks for something else.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

PaddyD said:


> I guess the poll leads you to believe the topic is one thing but the OP's original post asks for something else.


Yeah, sorry about that. I probably should have posted the main post in a different section than this poll. That was my mistake...


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> *This thread's intention:*
> 
> To discuss Cesar's thoughts on Vick. The intention of the thread is _not_ to discuss the poll. As stated, the poll was just for fun. We have a bazillion threads on "should we forgive Vick."
> 
> (No offense, whisperwill- I should have stated this when I created the thread. I forgot.)


Has it ever occured to you that when someone starts a thread, they don't get to dictate what and how people respond, so long as it falls within the rules of the forum? You seem to take quite a bit of offense and try to control threads you start. It makes absolutely no sense. Anyway, carry on.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for the useless post Rerun. That certainly helps the topic along doesn't it... 

If I start a thread to talk about a specific topic, then I have all right to not only document the intention of the thread, but also request that people stay on topic in my thread. Just move along if you don't have anything to add _to the topic._


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> Thanks for the useless post Rerun. That certainly helps the topic along doesn't it...
> 
> If I start a thread to talk about a specific topic, then I have all right to not only document the intention of the thread, but also request that people stay on topic in my thread. Just move along if you don't have anything to add _to the topic._


No, you certainly don't have the right to tell people what they can post on whatever thread they so choose. It blows my mind that you think that much of yourself. Start your own forum if you wish to choose how to tell people what they can reply to and how they have to reply.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Rerun said:


> No, you certainly don't have the right to tell people what they can post on whatever thread they so choose. It blows my mind that you think that much of yourself. Start your own forum if you wish to choose how to tell people what they can reply to and how they have to reply.


Good Lord. Thanks for reminding me to add you to my ignore list. I've hesitated in case you turned out to be a nice person after all. But I pretty much just dislike everything about you, especially your incessant need to trash my threads. Now... where is that ignore button...


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## CookieTN (Sep 14, 2008)

codmaster said:


> No pro athelete should ever be a role model for your kids - if they are, then they have other problems.


Agreed. There are probably some out there worthy of being a role model, but there are much more likely places to find one than in the realm of professional athletes.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I am on the fence. I am usually very forgiving of people. BUT since I have read and heard what Vick did, and will have a hard time forgiving him for it. For now I am on the fence, and don't feel like forgiving someone who did such horrible acts of cruelty to helpless animals. For now, I get to see him get sacked this season again. Last year, one of my Boys sacked me so hard he got hurt. =D


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

codmaster said:


> No pro athelete should ever be a role model for your kids - if they are, then they have other problems.


Disagree, I personally went to high school with a pro NFL player who did nothing but good things. Got good grades, stayed out of trouble, tutored his peers in Math and other subjects, got a full 4 year scholarship to a great college and graduated with a degree, and is now in the pros. There those who shouldn't be role models, and then there those who should. I can name few other pro athletes that make GREAT role models, because they did something with their lives and are giving back to their communities and help out in any way they can.

Sorry, for the thread derail.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

wildo said:


> Shilohsmom, codmaster- Let's keep it on topic. The topic of Vick is _obviously_ heated even still. This thread is NOT to discuss that topic. Let's discuss Cesar's thoughts on Vick.
> 
> Thanks for playing.


I'm sorry too. I thought I was on topic but I have an awful headache so I'm really not sure what any topics are right now.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

selzer said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I do think a child that grows up without anyone who values him, believes in him, might make some choices people with a different history would find appalling.





billsharp said:


> Cesar's comments appear genuine and true. What Vick did seemed horrendous to us, but (and this is not a defense) he was probably raised in a way that such behavior was not considered abhorrent, much like I don't think twice about stepping on a cockroach. Has Vick learned now that his upbringing was wrong, his behavior uncivilized and criminal? If he has, and he is sincere, good for him. This was the point Cesar made and I applaud him for it.


Yep- I think you are both pretty much saying the same thing. I think one of Vick's defenses was that he was raised around this and wasn't taught that it was wrong. And I really like the cockroach analogy. People who believe in reincarnation have a much different moral stance on what is right/wrong regarding animals. In the end, it is most certainly true that the way you were raised often shapes your belief system as an adult. Many people do grow up to question their parents' belief system- I know I have on a number of issues. Because of this, I am on the fence. I think it takes a lot of balls for Cesar to publically back Vick's current actions and stance. I think it really shows a lot about Cesar's personality and perhaps more specifically- about his desire to make red zone dogs have better, more balanced lives. I think Cesar probably made the right call, and who knows- maybe with Vick's popularity and fortune, and Cesar's resources in the field- maybe those two can actually make a difference in fighting dog abuse. Maybe.

[EDIT]- BTW selzer, I found a lot of truth in your entire post. Nicely stated. (Especially from someone we all know is not a huge Cesar fan :rofl


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

wildo said:


> Good Lord. Thanks for reminding me to add you to my ignore list. I've hesitated in case you turned out to be a nice person after all. But I pretty much just dislike everything about you, especially your incessant need to trash my threads. Now... where is that ignore button...


 Oh no, please don't. 

No one should have to apologize for posting a reply on an open forum just because YOU think they went "off topic." That's absolutely ridiculous.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

PaddyD said:


> Yup, I went astray too, sorry.
> I guess the poll leads you to believe the topic is one thing but the OP's original post asks for something else.


Very true.

Also sorry - just responding to someone's comment about pros as role models. Done!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

An interesting thread.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'm on the fence..I think it's rather generous of Cesaer to 'give him another chance'..

Personally, I think the only reason Vick is remorsefull, doing this, is because he got caught..If he hadn't been caught, he'd probably still be doing it.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I grudgingly say let him make those statements because whether you want Sports figures or jersey shore stars to be role models or not , they are. The average kid spends how many hours a day on the web ,texting and involved w/ the media. Good ,bad or indifferent they are role models. The impact they have on youth is hopefully determined by the values ,confidence and lifestyle you as a parent consistently role model. Having a guy who was in dog fighting s peak against it might reach someone the dog world can't. I would escort/ a reformed gang banger who left the life to meet kids who believe its the only way to make it because he's got cred that I dont have for some kids. Same w/ Vick. I dont like him,I dont buy Subway and I dont watch anything on BET and I would cheer for the ravens and the steelers before I will ever see want to see the Eagles win. But if the man can help someone who was raised in a world that views dog fighting and the subsequent harm and torture that occurs as ok and because Vick speaks out that keeps a couple of youth from doing so ,well then thank god ,not Vick. Its a first step.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The thing is, forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. It doesn't mean that we act like it never happened. It doesn't mean we completely reinstate him and let him start a puppy farm. You can forgive someone and still not trust them, still find their actions abhorrent. Forgiveness is more about letting go of the anger and bitterness that you hold towards that person. Forgiveness is about leaving no room for hate and allowing for the possibility of growth and change. For that reason, I agree with Cesar that it may be time to forgive. Not forget, certainly not let him own pit bulls, but forgive him enough to let him start working out his redemption.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Cesar does not support Vick, per se. He says that he is willing to consider forgiveness if Vick continues to do things to reverse the cruelty to dogs and to show his contrition (my word, not his). So, for Cesar, the jury is still out, waiting for more proof of his 'transformation'. That seems to be a cautious and reasonable approach because he is asking for more time and more opportunities for Vick to use his fame to change the minds of his fans and observers to act responsibly toward dogs. This is, of course, IMHO.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

When I read that article, my gut instantly says that Vick is doing this solely to make himself appear to be a better person who cares about animals. I highly doubt he has had a change of mind. As I see it, Vick is only "sorry" because he was caught. I'd be willing to bet that if he had never been caught, he would be still abusing animals. Any motivations for supporting the prevention of animal abuse from Vick come across to me as purely selfish. 

It's kind of Cesar to extend forgiveness to Vick if he has truly had a change of heart. However, I suppose that it would take more action on the part of Vick to convince me to change my mind.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally, if I NEVER hear the name Michael Vick again, it will be too soon. Cesar Milan should not even give credence to him and not even utter his name. I may not agree with everything Cesar says or does but he does have a large following. All he is doing is giving Vick more publicity. I don't believe for a second that Vick was ever sorry for what he did. He IS sorry he got caught and had and has to continue to suffer the repercussions from his actions.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

wildo said:


> Just today Cesar released a blog post about his thoughts on Michael Vick. It's an interesting read. One thing that I found very interesting is how Cesar compares our inability to forgive/forget human errors to our ability to forgive/forget dogs' errors while we rehabilitate them. Do you think there is validity to comparing the application of our emotions across species?


I don't really know whether that is the case, but I would hope that most people would realize that dogs are not humans and they don't do things for the same reasons as humans do. If a dog makes an "error", blaming the dog will not help anything. Some people do attribute human motives and responses on a dog, such as thinking a dog is guilty or remorseful due to their behavior (behaviors we see as "guilt" are often appeasement due to our reaction NOT to whatever the dog did that we think makes it "guilty.")

I don't think we can compare the actions of a dog fighter to any sort of "error" that a dog could commit. Even in the case of an attack by a dog. Dogs are not responsible for their actions in the same way as a human would be.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i don't think Cesar has anything to lose. if Vick does something
criminal involving dogs it means Cesar made a mistake in his
character jugdement. why should he lose anything for that???


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