# Show Dogs that....uh....work?



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

http://hauspharao.com/worldshow/wsg2007.html


Borrowed this from the Pedigree Database where amazingly, no one has had much to say. 

Anyone care to offer an opinion of these show dogs? 

I'll give mine. Basically, I see these dogs going the way of the American Show line dogs. I will give a more detailed reason why later but I am interested in what other people see in these videos. 

I have to say, those are some talented helpers. When someone told them to "catch" the dogs, they took it literally. lol


----------



## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

I haven't been on Ped. Database for a long while, but I do recall reading a pretty good discussion about it last year. There was also a lot of input from GSD owners on it from Leerburg forum too last year.

I didn't participate, but I certainly can understand and appreciate their arguments. It helped me understand a little more from a breeding perspective, and the future of this breed as a working/utility dog.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Not the same videos. These are the 2007 German VA males and Females.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Pakros- What the **** kind of heeling was that?! I thought "fuss" meant "heel nicely with a loose leash or off leash," not "grab dog by collar and drag him along with his forefeet barely touching the ground." Ugh!

Quenn- Nice face shot... yikes!

Agassi was trained with a heavy hand..









One thing that really struck out for me is how WEAK the dogs' rear ends looked in the gallop. Reminds me of the stereotypical cartoon bulldog- huge front body, teeny speck of a rear body.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I agree on the rear ends. Especially the Sieger. He is a mess. 
However, I am talking more about the bitework and that includes those clever helpers who are doing everything they can think of to make those dogs look good. The slow motion at the end of each is quite helpful in that regard, especially if you think you might have missed a stick hit or two.

BTW, the announcer is quite good.








In case you want to know how to pronounce those tricky German kennel names.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

I'll have to watch again, I watched these in mute. The helpers need to stop spoonfeeding the sleeves. Oh and real dogs hit at full force- no more of that weenie "rush in fast, slooooow doooown before slowly coming up to bite" nonsense.







I also noticed they keep the dog on the sleeve just a very short time; long enough to prove the dog did the work but short enough to make sure the dog's not given enough time to mess up.

The dogs would look so much better if the handlers would actually TRAIN them. One of the handlers gave quite the choke collar correction when the dog was sitting perfectly still. So I guess sitting and waiting nicely is a bad thing?


----------



## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

Anne, I watched the videos, when they were posted to the PDB and decided to keep my mouth shut, for once. Can you believe that? I am rarely ever impressed by a performance test at a sieger show. Then again, I don't look to a sieger show for breeding stock either. 

The only good comment I have about the bite work (cough cough) is that at least this year (2008) Vegas didn't bite the helper in the leg, like he did in the video from 2007. 

And to think some of those dogs were pulled out and praised for their "Exceptional" work. Blah!


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think people are getting tired of commenting since it doesn't really seem to be making a difference. However, that's not the point of my post. I am talking about specific things I see in the bitework and asking people what it is they see. Surely, you can comment on that part. We all know it is not ideal work but for me, I am not exactly buying the , "they are not trained and that's why you see what you do" arguement. For me, if they have had very little training, all the better to see who the dog is. So, what do you see?

One comment, I have seen/worked a dog or two out of the kennel 'von der Zenteiche' or dogs who were out of dogs from this kennel and they were not too bad. Lana, the VA 5 dog is pretty good for a show dog...and I mean show dog, not show line dog....especially one who went VA.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I see a lot of the helpers "feeding the dogs the sleeve"


----------



## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

Anne, years of selective breeding for the "perfect" conformation has selectively bred out the genetic bite. But, I am preaching to the choir. Honestly, I think a high percentage of the issue is the rushed training, the pressure the dogs can't handle, the time spent training the ring and not working on building a proper foundation. Too many of the dogs didn't know what to do with the pressure. They either can't work through it going higher into drive (if they have drive) or they were never taught how to work through the pressure. 

There were a couple of dogs who I thought if they had been trained better, stronger foundation, they would have impressed me some. Lana, is actually one of the dogs I did like, other than her grip wasn't full, BUT she was committed. She also didn't seem to be worried about pressure from her handler. I like the Zenteiche dogs, I have a son of Nero, who I like very much. 

Also, thank you for making the distinction between show dog and show line dog! there is a difference, and sometimes it is nice to see others recognize it as well.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Is that how most GSDs from those lines look in the rear? They look pretty extreme to me... I have not seen many GSDs of that type in videos or "in person" so I am not sure if that is 'normal'? I mean I'm used to seeing stacked photos but I thought the angling and curving was mostly from how they stack them...

Are they supposed to be heeling in the beginning? I notice several of the handlers either holding the dogs back by their collars or giving multiple leash corrections to enforce the heel and guiding them into a sit using the leash, that is allowed in competition? 

Does this dog look stressed and uneasy at the beginning to anyone else, or is it just me?

I'm not that well versed on bitework so I can't really comment much on that except to say that it does seem like the decoys are helping out the dogs quite a bit.


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

In my inexperienced eyes, Odin might be a bit better if he had a real trainer instead of that guy at the end of the leash who corrected the snot out of him for... I'm not really sure what.


----------



## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

ALL of these dogs were trained with a heavy hand or what is up with this crawling heel?????? OMG!! Looks absolutely horrifying. ALL of these dogs have their heads down like they have been beaten on top of their heads while heeling!?!?!


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Ok, looks like we need a lifeline. Here is a hint about what I am asking.









Leesa wrote:


> Quote: I see a lot of the helpers "feeding the dogs the sleeve"


Me too...what else do you see, especially in the dogs?

Dee wrote:


> Quote:Lana, is actually one of the dogs I did like, other than her grip wasn't full, BUT she was committed.
> She also didn't seem to be worried about pressure from her handler.


So, you think Lana has better training or she is a better dog than the others. If you think she is a better dog, explain what genetic traits make her better.

Superpup wrote:


> Quote:ALL of these dogs were trained with a heavy hand or what is up with this crawling heel?????? OMG!!


Actually, it could be the training or it could be who the dog is. IMO, much of what you are seeing here is genetic and that's the question. 
What genetic traits are missing or are evident that you can see during each phase of this....er..... test?... BTW, you can also see how some of the dogs react when there is less pressure vs more.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I've only watched some of the males... But I see dogs that are lacking in fight drive, that genetic full calm grip and courage.. Doesn't look like they enjoy the work! The fight with the helper..

I'd also say they don't put much effort into the training!!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:IMO, much of what you are seeing here is genetic and that's the question.


Do you mean the dogs' lack of ability to handle the pressure that the handlers are dumping on the dogs? If so, then yes I see that. But I also see handlers that are being jerks. But I suppose a strong working line would probably have ripped the handlers a new one for that sort of treatment rather than cower like these dogs.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote: Do you mean the dogs' lack of ability to handle the pressure that the handlers are dumping on the dogs? If so, then yes I see that. But I also see handlers that are being jerks.


For the purpose of this thread I will only be commenting on the character of the dogs.








You don't really want to know what I think of the people behind these dogs. lol


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:You don't really want to know what I think of the people behind these dogs. lol


Oh I think I can hear those brainwaves from here.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Leesa wrote:


> Quote: I've only watched some of the males... But I see dogs that are lacking in fight drive, that genetic full calm grip and courage.. Doesn't look like they enjoy the work! The fight with the helper..


Yes, that's the general answer but there is one thing that stands out for me and maybe my question is not fair because I am noticing a shift in these dogs when maybe other people have no basis for comparison.

Dianne wrote:


> Quote: Do you mean the dogs' lack of ability to handle the pressure


I mean their reaction to the stress...and if you think about it...this is not a whole lotta stress here...which makes their reaction to it even worse.

Here are a couple of hints as far as what I am noticing from the dogs in response to the pressure:



> Quote: Quenn- Nice face shot... yikes!





> Quote: Vegas didn't bite the helper in the leg, like he did in the video from 2007


While not all of them did things like this, there are other behaviors that indicate this reaction is maybe one or two breedings away.

BTW, I just have to mention the helper work on the back half during the VA 2 Face bite....uh I mean dog's protection work. hehehehe...That helper managed to turn the Courage test into a prey bite. Now THAT'S talent!


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DianaMIn my inexperienced eyes, Odin might be a bit better if he had a real trainer instead of that guy at the end of the leash who corrected the snot out of him for... I'm not really sure what.


I'll have to comment more tomorrow after I watch the videos again, but I did want to say (sorry, Diana) that I have to disagree strongly. Odin wasn't even close to impressive. And I don't think it can be blamed on training or those minor corrections (far from correcting the snot out of him).

Every bite was frontal, weak and chewy, and got worse as the drives (I hate to call them that... they're more like doggy dancing than a true drive) went on. Significant gathering before each bite. Total lack of commitment from the dog. The drive after the courage test was the most laughable helperwork I've seen in a long time. Completely lateral, no pressure, no stick threat, no actual stick hits, and the entire time the helper was playing tug with the dog by constantly keeping prey movement in the sleeve. His sleeve arm wasn't moving like that because the dog was fighting, that was the helper moving the sleeve. Without that constant prey movement to keep the dog engaged, that dog wouldn't have stayed on the sleeve. Even with all that prey and no pressure at all, the bite was weak, frontal and chewy and got worse as the "drive" went on.

I wouldn't say he was the worst one there, but I don't see anything to make me think there is a strong dog anywhere in the mix that's just been messed up with training or some corrections.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

My stab at what I think Anne is getting at before I go to bed and post more tomorrow.

I see more than just lack of fight, lack of courage, etc... I see weak nerves. Weak to the point where I wouldn't want some of those dogs on the couch or playing with the kids, much less in any working endeavor.

The stress is minimal. Those helpers are doing everything they can to help the dogs. Prey bites on two exercises where the helper is supposed to attack into the dog. Feeding the dog the sleeve. Weak "drives" with no pressure, real stick threat or hits. Lots of prey movement in the sleeve to keep the dogs on with their weak, frontal bites. And of course you've also got handlers doing everything they can to geek up their dogs before each bite, and some practically throwing their dogs to get them to head down field on the "courage test".

And these dogs are completely uncomfortable even with all that prey game playing. Prey work, all of it, but the dogs are for the most part in defense, and half are on the verge, ready to bolt into avoidance at any moment. Vegas circling and running away before returning to guard, Quenn's face shot... this isn't just conflict or lack of training. And it certainly isn't a tough, strong, attitudinal dog fighting the helper (though I'm sure some would see it as such). This is behavior that screams "fear biter". That any dog, much less a GSD (and "the best in the world" at that) would be stressed to the point of fear, defense and nearly avoidance by this is extremely concerning. 

Sad that this work has become so accepted that it's now praised. I don't see a dog on those videos that should rate above "sufficient" on even an easy judge. Yet I'm sure all are "pronounced" and the crowd sure does seem to think their work is praiseworthy. Or maybe they were really cheering for the helpers and how helpful they were being, not for the dogs....


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Chris, what do you mean when you say a bite is frontal?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiChris, what do you mean when you say a bite is frontal?


The dog is just biting with the front of his mouth. Some are barely hanging on by their canines. Bites should be full mouth on the sleeve, not just the front part of the mouth. And the bite shouldn't move, and definitely shouldn't be able to be shaken loose. It's especially clear in the slo-mo portions of the videos. Many of the dogs have more of their mouths off the sleeve than on it.

Frontal bites indicate total lack of commitment. The dog is leaving himself an out, biting in a manner he can quickly disengage from, because he is working out of defense and fear, not confidence.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Is there a button you can push to make trumpets play on here? 

Chris guessed it...but she doesn't get the prize cause I had to give too many hints!

I think I liked these dogs better when they just ran away. I have noticed this change over the last few years and yes, fear biter is what comes to mind. This is what I saw happen with the American line dogs over the years. It is nerves and you can see the lack of those in almost every part of these routines. The dogs are frantic and hectic and sometimes nasty. While the structure of the dogs gets worse and worse, now we have some aggression mixed in with less and less nerve strength and that is a combination that should be avoided at all costs.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks!! I was thinking a frontal bite as the dog running straight to the helper as opposed to biting elbows and avoiding confrontation and I couldn't see then how a frontal bite could be bad.









My problem is... I learn all this informative things on here or other English articles and then I don't know how its said in Spanish when I'm talking to somebody (usually show people who knows even less than me).


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I'll jump.

I also see all the dogs stopping before the helper and then jumping to bite, almost as if to ask permission. It is more obvious in the slow motion part of the videos. I'm not expecting a flying malinois bite and I know these dogs are also compromised by their comformation, but I see it too as lack of confidence and commitment.


----------



## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> Every bite was frontal, weak and chewy, and got worse as the drives ... Completely lateral, no pressure, no stick threat, no actual stick hits ... His sleeve arm wasn't moving like that because the dog was fighting


I wouldn't be able to say it better, but that was what my line of thought ran. The bite was shallow, there was no fight, and the long bites were so weak.

It is just so disheartening to see these VA-rated dogs considered the creme de la creme. My dog's breeder had also said that the German showlines are following the path of the American lines too.

I just didn't feel confident enough to voice my opinions since I am no expert, but I am glad I am on the right tract as far as this goes. One learns quite a bit from lurking on PDB and other working dog forums.









But I am glad you post this thread, there isn't a lot of discussion about this here.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

The helper is fighting to keep the dogs on the sleeve! Instead of doing their job correctly and weeding out the dogs that shouldn't be bred..









Good thread!!


----------



## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Good post, Chris! I see what you mean now. I wasn't looking at the grips. I did note that Odin looked back at his handler which I know is also a big sign of insecurity.

This is an excellent thread indeed. Can we sticky it or at least not have it be pruned? This is another valuable indication of how choosy people must be when buying a German showline dog- titles clearly don't mean squat.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Vandalbut she doesn't get the prize cause I had to give too many hints!


Waaahhhh! Me want prize!! <stomps foot>












> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> I think I liked these dogs better when they just ran away. I have noticed this change over the last few years and yes, fear biter is what comes to mind. This is what I saw happen with the American line dogs over the years. It is nerves and you can see the lack of those in almost every part of these routines. The dogs are frantic and hectic and sometimes nasty. While the structure of the dogs gets worse and worse, now we have some aggression mixed in with less and less nerve strength and that is a combination that should be avoided at all costs.


Though I really don't deserve a prize since being honest, I hadn't really thought of it in the terms Anne is mentioning until she was pushing for answers beyond the usual in this thread. Weak bites, lack of fight, lack of confidence, lack of power, dogs who want to be anywhere else doing anything else, helpers who apparently have a gross misunderstanding the meaning of the word and how it came about and obviously thinking it means to "help" the dog in any way possible..... And all of it earning big cheers from the crowd and "pronounced" ratings is just become the norm. I think we all expect it, so it's the natural answer to the question... really don't even need to watch the videos to guess that one right.

But the trend in temperament goes beyond that, beyond the weakness we all expect, and is very disturbing. People need to think about what this means for *real life*.

Here you have dogs with SchH3s, who have seen the performance test at shows countless times, doing very simple work with constant encouragement from their handlers and not even being required to show halfway decent control (wouldn't want to put control on the dogs... that would make their performance even worse!). Helpers doing everything they can to prevent putting pressure on the dogs, and waving about what should be any SchH dog's favorite toy. And what is a very familiar and relatively pressure free situation for these dogs, is making these dogs stressed to the point of showing frantic and in some cases fear aggressive behavior.

What would those dogs be like in the average home? I know there's a lot more stress going on in our living room when the Red Wings are losing a hockey game. I can't imagine a home with a bunch of kids. If they can't handle a situation they've seen many, many times, favorite toy waved in their faces, and everything done to take the pressure out of it, how could they handle the ups and downs and little and sometimes big stressors that are part of everyone's everyday life?

That the dogs are stressed that easily by something that shouldn't be stressful is bad enough. But as Anne said, it was better when they just ran away. A dog who goes into avoidance immediately... running from the helper or going to hide under the bed or the dining room table when it experiences stress is weak in character (and not worthy of being called a GSD in my book) but at least it's a fairly safe dog. But a dog who is stressed that easily and reacts with fear based aggression... even when avoidance and running away is a clear option, nothing is preventing him from doing so... is worse. That's not just a weak dog, that's a dangerous dog.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

How are these dogs typically trained? 

Watching the videos I see what others are describing - fearful uncomfortable dogs. As a total Schutzhund neophyte, I am trying to assess them the way I would assess them if I ran across them in some other venue. If you take both their history and breed off the table, I think I would see dogs of an extremely sensitive temperament trained using compulsion. That is, I think you could get a similar performance off a decently bred Border Collie trained with overuse of an e-collar. The same BC might be fine and perfectly safe if trained using breed-appropriate techniques. 

Are these dogs being harshly corrected for avoidance activities so that they no longer have the choice to run away or are they initiating it because of their genetics? I'm assuming the latter based on the comments of those more knowledgable than I, but just wondering about how these dogs are trained. Do they know they have the option to run away? Or have they been convinced that doing so is even worse? 

I ask mainly because highly sensitive dogs (for example many Shelties), dogs that would be "weak nerved" if they were GSDs, can perform exercises like heeling and automatic sits with a great deal of joy if they are trained using positive reinforcement. The dogs here look skulky and miserable even during those basic exercises. Granted, a well-bred GSD ought not to be so sensitive in the first place, just trying to figure out what these dogs would be like in caring pet homes. 

We have a dog in long term foster here. - I think he's actually working lines. He spent his first 4 years living alone in a tiny pen with no stimulation or positive contact and being regularly beaten by his owner for excessive barking. It's hard to tell what he would be like had he had a better life before coming here, but like the dogs Chris is talking about he does demonstrate that combination of fear and proactivity about approaching rather than avoiding the threat, that makes for a more iffy combination than a dog that simply runs away when frightened.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

And the kicker is... these dogs are being sought after and bred to.. 

Although the same







happens here in the US.. Dogs that are lacking in all the right stuff being bred, except here, we don't HAVE to train, title or even work our breeding stock! just breed away..


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

My old dog Juri could be what I considered a little "dirty." He would push and bump the helper, just begging him to move so Juri could get in a bite
I have heard people comment that a "dirty" dog is weak-nerved, but never agreed because I knew my Juri wasn't nervy, just naughty
However, several of these dogs are "dirty" in a different way. Sneaky, nasty little bites when they think they can get away with it.


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

I'll point out another thing I noticed with the helper work.

There was one dog who showed little gathering before biting, no I don't remember which one, but I was struck by the way the helper reacted quite slowly to this. It's pretty telling that hesitation is so the norm that a helper supposedly chosen for his expertise is taken aback when it doesn't happen.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I prefer what is done over here. At least it doesn't make a mockery of what used to be a good system.


----------



## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Anne, I see now that you pointed out what you wanted us to comment on







I can see the weak bites, frontal bites, weak nerves, not wanting to be there... it is pretty sad. I bet the crawling heel is also partially genetics, partially training. These handlers do not look like "trainers"..


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqHow are these dogs typically trained?
> 
> Watching the videos I see what others are describing - fearful uncomfortable dogs. As a total Schutzhund neophyte, I am trying to assess them the way I would assess them if I ran across them in some other venue. If you take both their history and breed off the table, I think I would see dogs of an extremely sensitive temperament trained using compulsion. That is, I think you could get a similar performance off a decently bred Border Collie trained with overuse of an e-collar. The same BC might be fine and perfectly safe if trained using breed-appropriate techniques.
> 
> ...


The thing is it really doesn't matter how they are trained since, if they had correct temperament in the first place they would never ever avoid under these situations thus never needing any kind of training or correction that could lead to the behaviors we are seeing.

To put it bluntly: A six month old puppy should be able to handle the amount of pressure these dogs are seeing without exhibiting any negative reaction. The fact that there is a negative reaction means that, poor training or good training, there is an underlying genetic fault that should be eliminated from the breed. 

Even if trained using all positive reinforcement these dogs would show the "sulky" behavior you see in the videos. Because this is a situation they have been in many times and they know exactly what is about to happen. They fear what is about to happen so the act like they are on the way to the executioners.

What these dogs would be like in caring pet homes is hopefully spayed or neutered and that would be best for the breed.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Mary, you are correct. This type of "dirty" is not the same. It was either the VA1 or VA2 dog (I could only stomach watching the 2) took a cheap shot at the helper's shoulder/neck area. In a trial he would have been disqualified. Obviously here it is OK.


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

It was VA2.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

What's even more scary is there is a thread on PDB now talking about Vegas, and how he'll be the next big thing and will bring a lot of improvement to the show lines. I wonder if people are blind to the severe faults in temperament, or mistakenly think he's a solid, tough dog... or just don't care because his "angles are nice".


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Training is not the cause here. Probably hasn't helped, but what we're seeing is genetic nerve weakness.



> Originally Posted By: pupresqGranted, a well-bred GSD ought not to be so sensitive in the first place, just trying to figure out what these dogs would be like in caring pet homes.


That's the big question. Point I was trying to make in my earlier post is I'd be quite concerned about many of these dogs in "caring pet homes". Considering the fear aggression shown in a familiar, pressure free environment, I question the abilities of some of these dogs to even be sound, safe pets. I suspect some would be contributing to GSDs moving their way up the dangerous dog lists.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Just to be clear - I'm definitely not arguing that no matter what their training, these dogs shouldn't be bred and don't represent the correct GSD in Schutzhund (or at all, for that matter). 

I guess my question is more on the issue of genetics, nerves, and behavior, aside from what we want to see in our breed. You can get very similar behavior out of "normal" that is, correct nerved, representatives of some other breeds. You can also typically ID a badly e-collar trained dog at a distance, whether or not the e-collar is being used at that moment, just from the way they work. So what is a familiar and "safe" environment for one dog may be the context and setting for pain and misery for another depending on their past experience in training. 

I can think of several breeds that you could turn into what we see in those videos by using inappropriate training techniques on otherwise "sound" individuals - sound, again, _for that breed_. Now, one important point is that the breeds I'm thinking of are not guards, guardians, and are fundamentally unsuited for bite work or protection training and to attempt it would be to create a probable fear biter. However, raised appropriately for their temperament these dogs would neither be dangerous nor unsound. 

I guess what I'm really wondering is if what we're seeing are genetic Shelties in GSD suits being forced to do work for which they are genetically ill-equipped.







I don't disagree with the general points being made on this thread. I'm just trying to figure out where that line is between an extremely soft and fearful temperament, but which is not dangerous if not harshly trained until the dog feels it has no other options, and a dog that has an internal genetic conflict between weak nerves and aggression. If that makes sense.


----------



## valleydog (Jan 18, 2005)

I think it would be really interesting if someone jumped in who could defend these dogs. All the points made here are so easily understood, that I just wonder how the people are thinking who are pinning, training and breeding these dogs, because it's obviously not the way people on this board view it.


----------



## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I can't see the video's for some reason so won't comment on them. I can't imagine that they are much different from what I have seen in the past unfortunately.

But, as someone who has lived with a variety of very stable but high-drivey dogs and also a dog with bad nerves... my feeling is I would trust the drivey but stable dog anyday before the nervy dog. A dog with weak nerves is just not suitable for a family home. You always have to be watching them, make sure that they are not frightened suddenly, and if there are kids around well then you better be especially vigilant. 

I have been to several SS's and it seems to be getting worse and worse as time goes on. I love the looks of the beautiful black and reds but have no use for what they have become. As my granny would say "pretty is as pretty does"









Sure, some of the dogs are trained hard, sent off to whomever who use whatever means necessary to get the dogs titled as quickly as possible. But that is just a small part of it I think. I have seen work dogs trained hard too but they don't often end up looking like this.

If you listen at the shows you hear all kinds of excuse making... most often is that my dog has been put up for a long time. Well, I can tell you that if Suzi, my old ShowGirl, was put up for a long time it just means that she was "screaming harder" when she finally got the chance to work. Ok, OK, Suzi didn't scream, LOL, but she had a lot of intensity and it certainly didn't diminish when she was put up!

I think to answer the above question, It is all about the almighty $$$. Too much money at stake to be honest with oneself about what you see right in front of you. Some don't know perhaps, but I believe that most do.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Tammy, did you rest your Mouse on the bottom of the white screen? The player controls show up there, it doesn't load on it's own


----------



## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Somebody has been playing with my computer and screwed up quite a few things.... I'll try to watch them from another computer maybe.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, first of all, I am not saying the dogs in these videos are dangerous. What I AM saying is that I am seeing a shift in these dogs, (the aggression aspect especially), and I know where it could end up in two or three generations. It can indeed lead to dogs who will bite from fear off the field and are more afraid of normal things than they should be. 
The other question is, where are these people going to go to to improve this very apparent weakness that they have created by ignoring temperament in favor of a look. The dogs in that video are the most bred to dogs in Germany and almost all of them lack nerve strength.. big time. Consider that hideous reality for a moment. 
I will leave the conformation disaster for another thread. It makes me sad to see dogs who look like this, all to satisfy someone's perverse perception of a written standard. 

There are for sure working line dogs who have a hard time controlling themselves and there are dogs who will not out and who get dirty as well. Most of the time, when people see this, they find it amusing or they make comments about what a tough dog it is. That's not a tough dog. A tough dog is one who knows that he can control the helper with his bark and who remains composed under pressure even while being aggressive. You see that in the grip and not just a full one but a powerful one and you can see the dog fight when it is appropriate to do so, not all of the time. Again, their behavior in front of the helper says quite a bit as well, along with how well they can "hear" their handler during stress.

Sure some dogs are trained wrong and the training can create certain behaviors but if you watch enough dogs closely, you can learn to recognize the cracks forming in their temperament and the nerves. It all has to be considered when it comes to breeding but nowadays we have dogs being bred to achieve points and dogs being bred to win in a show ring. Both sides are losing their nerve strength as a result of where people are trying to go with their breedings. The goal is the problem in my opinion.

There was only the one dog, (as I recall), who really went up for the face but the rest of the behaviors that you see, the rebites, the bumps and chewing, the thrashing behavior on the sleeve that make it appear that these dogs think they are in a BIG crazy fight when there is minimal pressure, are all signs of trouble. Also the way they let go and their behavior there says quite a bit. The dog should out calmly and be in control of himself and become immediately assertive, not all rattled because some nice guy fanned him with the stick. 

I am not sure people look hard enough at the working line dogs either. My point is again, aggression with weak nerves is probably the worst combination of all. Overall, the nerves in the breed, both working, and for sure on the show side, are not what they used to be. People are afraid of aggression but in reality, if the nerves are what they should be, there is nothing to fear there. The ideal dog IMO, is one who you might never think would be aggressive but when the time comes, you see it is indeed in there and they can turn it off as quickly as they turned it on. That is a GSD.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It was the VA2 that went for the face Anne. I heard the crowd gasp...I gasped myself....and then was appalled to realize that that dog went VA2. He shouldn't have placed at all! Even the crowd knew the dog was wrong! How could the judge place that?

It seemed like a combination of weak nerves and a temper tantrum "I don't like what you're doing to me, so I'm going to show you what I think about it."


----------



## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Very informative and good post Anne!!!


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:My point is again, aggression with weak nerves is probably the worst combination of all.


TOTALLY agree!


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqJust to be clear - I'm definitely not arguing that no matter what their training, these dogs shouldn't be bred and don't represent the correct GSD in Schutzhund (or at all, for that matter).
> 
> I guess my question is more on the issue of genetics, nerves, and behavior, aside from what we want to see in our breed. You can get very similar behavior out of "normal" that is, correct nerved, representatives of some other breeds. You can also typically ID a badly e-collar trained dog at a distance, whether or not the e-collar is being used at that moment, just from the way they work. So what is a familiar and "safe" environment for one dog may be the context and setting for pain and misery for another depending on their past experience in training.
> 
> ...


The nerve strength you see displayed by these dogs is as inappropriate in a Sheltie, or a Poodle, or a Chihuahua for that matter. That it is displayed by dogs who supposedly are impeccably trained is the icing on the cake. But unsound is unsound, there is no extremely soft fearful temperament that is completely safe. 

And people react so very very badly because that VA1 will probably have 50 or sixty litters in the next year insuring that his poor genetic material will pollute the gene pool for the next hundred years.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One more point here. Even in it's weakened state, the SchH routine shown in these videos is doing what it was intended to do. The problem is, no one is listening.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Yeah, that last part is the worst of it. 

I'm just trying to parse in my mind the lines between weak nerves, soft temperaments, and a predisposition to fear aggression. I have known plenty of dogs with extremely soft temperaments that were very safe and highly unlikely to bite. They would never have made good Schutzhund dogs, nor were they appropriate GSDs, but they were perfectly "sound." I have a Sheltie/BC cross like that now. She will skulk and cower if you speak harshly to her but is easy to train and hasn't the slightest inclination to bite a person. 

So then I guess then question becomes about the line between "soft" and "weak" and what is meant by each. Perhaps this isn't the thread for it, because I DO agree with what's being observed about these particular dogs. It's just that doing rescue I am constantly observing the myriad of outcomes you get when breed, temperament, and handling intersect, so both fear and aggression are things I think about a lot and am always interested in learning more about.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

"Soft" and "weak nerved" aren't the same thing. They are often found together in the same dog, but not always. Though I'd say in my experience that most weak nerved dog's I've seen have also tended to be soft, but not all soft dogs have been weak nerved.

Weak nerved typically refers to a dog's threshold for feeling threatened or stressed, and how he responds. 

First component is threshold. How much stimulus does it take for the dog to feel threatened or stressed? An appropriate amount, or an inappropriate amount? The later is true for the dogs in the videos.

Next component is what does the dog do when threatened? It has 2 choices... run or fight. The fight/flight response all animals, including humans, possess. 

A dog who chooses to run, may or may not be appropriately termed weak in character for his breed. For some breeds, responding to a threat with avoidance (flight) would be breed appropriate behavior. For a GSD it is not. A GSD who feels threatened should fight first (defensive aggression). 

Regardless of what is appropriate for the breed though, when you have a dog who's threshold for threat is so low it gets scared when it shouldn't, the one who chooses avoidance is the safer dog. He's not going to bite unless cornered and flight is no longer an option. But when you have a "fight first" reaction combined with a threshold so low that the dog feels threatened, and thus goes into defensive aggression, in inappropriate situations.. big problem.


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Totally agree with that! If it's okay, I'd like to start a thread on some of these terms because they get thrown around a lot and it would be interesting to discuss them. Will you lend your expertise?


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq.
> 
> So then I guess then question becomes about the line between "soft" and "weak" and what is meant by each. Perhaps this isn't the thread for it, because I DO agree with what's being observed about these particular dogs. It's just that doing rescue I am constantly observing the myriad of outcomes you get when breed, temperament, and handling intersect, so both fear and aggression are things I think about a lot and am always interested in learning more about.


In my mind there is a different between soft and weak. A soft dog to me is a dog that needs little correction and is trying very hard to please it's handler. A weak nerved dog has no balance, they perceive small things as big scary things, they are reactive because they don't realize that it is nothing to be reactive about. I have trouble putting things to words. Take my male Lakota, he has what I consider great nerve, I can take him any where, has no sound problems, no problems with different surfaces, no reaction to other dogs unless they walk up to him and try to dominate them and he will give his BIG bark like back off, but doesn't try to kill the dog. But Lakota is soft, he doesn't need much for corrections, all he wants to do is please people.

Now take my sweet little DeeDee girl who has sound senstivity problems, she has great ball drive, not comfortable going to new places (will with draw into herself), but she doesn't have the bite instict her choice is to run, if pushed she just curls up in a ball. But if she had more aggessivness in her she wouldn't curl up in a ball, she would flash out an bite.

I think the problem is that people want a puppy of the dog that was V? and is pretty. The market is there for that. Now say you have nice breeding from a solid club dog and a nice club female, do you think people are going to be beating your door down when they can get a pup that has 15 VA's in the pedigree. Read some of the ad's out there, # number of VA's, line bred on this and that up the hilt. 

I will take a dog that has great nerve and a not perfect conformation over that 15+ VA's in a pedigree that is linebred up the you know what.

Val


----------



## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: G-burgThe helper is fighting to keep the dogs on the sleeve! Instead of doing their job correctly and weeding out the dogs that shouldn't be bred..
> 
> 
> 
> ...










sad but true.......


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I think Anne is spot on with where the German Showlines are headed. I like showlines, but I don't like what I am seeing. The breeding to the Fad and the cookie cutter dogs are really doing there damage.

I think if the tread continues you will see what has happened in the American Breeding, there are decent American Breed dogs out there, but not in the showlines. These are the dogs that most people are terming "BYB", I do wish more would do health checks but a lot of these dogs aren't the nervy snappy things you see in the show world.

I think if the German Showlines continue you will see a break develop that will be the show ring dogs and the other so to speak.

Val


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomI love the looks of the beautiful black and reds but have no use for what they have become.


That's not true... they can always work trotting in circles in a mill


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

...and now for a dog who displays all the things that make you smile when you watch SchH :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4me5cqUwuI&feature=related

Nice structure and black and red as well...even though I wish there was no silent guard, the rest of this dog's work is really nice.

It is nice to hear people cheering for the right reason


----------



## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Ah, a blanket black and red that looks HAPPY and confident while he works. Be still my heart!







His conformation is not entirely my thing, but he at least looks like he is enjoying his work and doing a great job at it.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Nice video, but yet a workingline, even being black and red.

What about the dog Balabanov presented at the WUSV?. Its interesting to comment him for all the training v/s genetic discussion on this thread. Here you have a dog with the genetic of a show-line and the training of a working dog.
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=7A3a8C4xMGM


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Well, first, there is a problem with comparing when you can't see the dog's behavior on the grip. However, overall, I see a lack of drive and temperament in Ivan's dog. You can see that in how he carries himself during the routine, even his tail says "I'm tired" and the difference in power is noticible, even with the poor view in this video.


----------



## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

I remember watching Ivans dog, I would say it was among the slowest, and in the bottom three as far as power. It sure wasn't a pretty performance and I remember the dog showing some pressure in the work.

I also heard that this dog was handpicked by him, to showcase his training. Kind of; "see my training is so good I can even get a show dog to the worlds" kind of thing. This is the best performance he could get out of this dog, an 80, If I remember correctly that's the lowest good above sufficient right? This from a trainer who regularly gets high very good to excellent when competing with his working dogs at this level of competition.


----------



## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

The sad part is people see and hear only what they want to; as you can hear from the applause on the poor performances. I do NOT see it changing. I've seen threads on other boards about what dogs/lines to bring in for improving working ability...I think you could hear crickets it was so quiet. Only a few people seemed to have any knowledge of the lines. Most of the dogs mentioned were from years ago before the split. Or, as said before, the new argument now is the dogs aren't trained properly...you can't change genetics. In all fairness, I do think there are a few breeders/competitors out there trying who actually work/train/and title their showlines. Like Dee said, those breeders aren't looking to the Seiger Show for breeding dogs. But they are a minority. I think unfortunately many showline breeders don't understand what working ability is anymore or how to get it back.I've said for years the black and red dogs are heading down the path of the american lines.


----------



## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

I am told that the majority of german shepherd dogs (I am not including the AKC shepherd in this statement) that are being bred and sold are high lines. If the ads of the PDB are any indication, or better yet, a sampling of the number of litters being produced, it is indeed a very sad set of circumstances for the breed as a whole. 

I occasionally glance at the For Sale ads on the PDB, usually I do this after a big "show". You see so many young dogs being sold with the attachment that they are VA so and so's progeny, yadda yadda yadda. I am still shocked and dismayed that fanciers look for and to these VA dogs as what is right, correct, or what the GSD in their mind should be. Then you have folks who have been in the breed for years saying the judges who put these dogs up can't be wrong. Sadly, we can all agree that money is the number one reason people breed these dogs. 

I read the threads on a lot of forums that discuss the conformation of all the latest VAs. OMG! the flaming you get if you say, "yes the dog looks nice, too angulated for me, but how is the dog's working ability?" There are always a long list of why the dog didn't perform to its potential. My favorite, as mentioned previously, is that the dog has been put up for several months and hasn't done any bite work. Of course it hasn't done any bite work, that is the dog's least enjoyable activity, at least while it is being trained to run the ring hour after hour, it can avoid the actual pressure placed upon it. 

I hate the path we are traveling with the high lines. It is nothing for us to be proud of. It is shameful that money becomes the reason dogs of bad temperament are bred. And... that the masses ooooh, aaaaaah, applaud and approve the constant rewarding of ill bred, ill tempered, pretty dogs. 

One has to wonder if or how the high lines might change if we no longer had sieger shows.


----------



## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Painful to watch those SS vids. Peel away the "training" and I see weak nerves. They seemed "relieved" to out. Infact I would say they really came off the sleeve-some of them. They did not want the confrontation. If the dog doesn't love the fight, its not breedworthy. Shame. Shame. Shame.

Hats off to the breeder's out there who are working diligently to continue those traits that demand stable nerves and balanced temperaments.
I'll take my "ugly" unknown working dog Nandi, who loves the fight, is clear-headed and nerves are solid


----------



## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

When Reiser is selling Koolaid in the us I'm buying


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Joker When Reiser is selling Koolaid in the us I'm buying


Hopefully won't be long. He's working hard at getting RSV2000 FCI recognition, and met with several "movers and shakers" from the US at the WUSV to sow the seeds for setting up RSV2000 clubs in the US.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

But why CAN'T we have our pretty dogs and our working dogs? I'm going to admit, I'm having a hard time finding my next GSD, because I want something I can work, but don't want a coyote, and I want something pretty for conformation, but don't want something that's too heavy or overangulated to move efficiently...


----------



## GSDextrodinaire (Dec 15, 2002)

Jackie,

The answer to your question is very easy, but sad. There are very few "pretty dogs" that have the correct temperament to do the work. Decades of selecting the pretty ones for breeding with no thought to the working ability, has diminished the gene pool of correct GSDs. The majority of breeders select the winning VA dogs to breed to. It has been YEARS since there was a real VA dog that could work. 

You have a much better chance of finding a nice looking dog from working lines than you do finding a good worker from show lines. It is sad, but that is what has happened. 

The old saying "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is so very true. A dog who can work is the most beautiful dog in the world. I personally haven't seen any coyotes, because of what I look for. I love working line dogs, and if they work (herding, sch, SAR, LE, herding, personal service) that dog is the most beautiful. I see a lot of pretty dogs flying around the show ring, and most of those dogs are not beautiful to me (and I have high lines). The beautiful ones were the ones that earned their titles, and have correct temperament.


----------



## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

wow what a difference!!!!


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

It is indeed true, and while I most definitely appreciate the importance of a good working dog, aesthetics is important to me too. I have to find it physically appealing as well...if I have to look at it every day, I need to like it's look, and you couldn't pay me to feed some of the working dogs I see, kick butt work or not. Might be a bit superficial, but I know one of the reason working line people like their dogs is the way they look.

I don't disagree that the majority of VA dogs are lacking in nerve and drive, and don't handle pressure well. Part of this is most obviously genetics, but add on top of that training that is done in record time to get the dogs titled so they can get their show ratings, and I don't think the dogs can get a fair shake at all.

I wouldn't doubt they're still nervy, but I don't think they'd be presenting themselves as being AS nervy if people took them through a properly timed training regimen.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSDextrodinaire
> One has to wonder if or how the high lines might change if we no longer had sieger shows.


Or if the "working" classes didn't start at age TWO!

Now that I am getting into this style of conformation myself, I wonder, what do you do if your dog isn't SchH2 by the time he is 24 months?


----------



## Annikas Mom (Jun 10, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: GSDextrodinaire
> ...


Crawl in a hole and hide away, LOL!

I have a showline male that can work but he has been very slow to mature and I refused to put pressure on him before he was ready. The bond with my dog is more important then when he gets his titles, I have gotten plenty of flack for him not being titled at 3.5 years old from both show and working line folks but in the end it is about me and my dog and what is best for us.


----------

