# Animal Cruelty a Reliable Indicator of Criminality



## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Very interesting article, but gave me cold chills...


Animal cruelty is a reliable predictor of criminality — which is why the FBI is taking it more seriously
criminality-which-is-why-the-fbi-is-taking-it-more-seriously/


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I didn't read the article but the correlation has been widely known for a long time. All serial killers started with animals.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Yes, I was aware of it, too. But this article stated some facts I did not know. It said that the FBI has made animal cruelty a Group A felony which puts it on a par with homicide, arson and assault. I think the reason for this is that people who commit acts of animal cruelty are also many times wanted or guilty of other crimes against people.

It said that non-psychopathic criminals do not commit any more acts of animal cruelty that the non-criminal population but that most animal cruelty is committed by psychopaths. Not all, or even most psychopaths/sociopaths are criminals. The two outstanding characteristics are a lack of conscience and a lack of empathy. It is thought that 1 in every 25 people is a sociopath and so probably most of us have come into contact with one or two in our lives.

Another thing the article mentioned is that there is still scant protection for animals used in laboratory testing. The only stipulation is that anesthesia must be used in painful experiments but even that only applies to dogs, cats, and primates.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That law goes in effect in 2016. It's about time. There is a high correlation between animal abuse and many violent crimes.

Yes, I understand the traits of a psychopath and a sociopath. And there are many different 'levels' within that category


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know if batterers are considered sociopaths or not, but I hope that someday they truly treat abusing someone's animal specifically to hurt them as an assault on the owner, especially when fathers and step fathers do it to their children. I think that this can cause some separation in kids' minds where they learn never to become attached to anything because it will be used against them.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

A very successful Florida prosecutor who's known as one of the best animal cruelty prosecutors in the country told me that his experience has shown that if an animal is being abused chances are sky-high that a woman or child is also being abused in the same home.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

Not surprising.

We had a local 6 year old foster child beaten to death by another 10 year old one almost two years ago. Turns out the 10 year old had killed before, a pregnant dog. It will only be a matter of time before he kills again.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I watched a program where a whole family was being interviewed about the step-father who had uncontrolable anger issues but they were all saying well he just takes it out on the dog. I wanted to scream," You stand by and let him beat the dog instead of you? You blanky-blanks." It's ok as long as he doesn't hit you to beat the poor dog?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

10-Year-Old To Be Charged With Dog Beating Death « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth


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## J-Boo (Mar 5, 2015)

Sociopaths are some scary s***

There are two acquaintances of mine that I KNOW are sociopaths - of course there are really plenty of others, but two that I know of. One was the more impulsive, reckless kind. His goal was to die fleeing from police on his motorcycle. He achieved it at age 21. As a young teen he used to try to do...inappropriate things withe the family's female dog.

The other one I know is the more manipulative kind, who does not get into actual trouble with the law, but who gets his jollies by lying and orchestrating situations that end up really messing with people, ruining relationships, etc etc. He talks a lot about his dog and seems to really care for her, but I can't help but wonder about it. I thought maybe it's just having someone/thing that will so unerringly do whatever you train it/tell it to do that is the draw?

A book I read recently mentioned a study where sociopaths asked to think about words such as "love" and "friendship" activated the same parts of their brains used to figure out math problems and such, versus a totally different part of the brain activated in empaths (aka non-sociopaths) when thinking about such terms pertaining to emotion and relationships with other living creatures.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> 10-Year-Old To Be Charged With Dog Beating Death « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth


How terribly sad for the dog's owners, and for the family of the kid. 

If children are born normal and then develop into sociopaths, then perhaps the parenting/environment has an impact. If they are born without certain connections in their brain, it is truly tragic for their families, who will blame themselves for all the things that they can find, the imperfections in their parenting, etc, imperfections that any family unit has. Though probably, raising such a child might cause a variety of parenting problems that we might point to looking backwards.

I think we any of us would make a number of mistakes trying to raise such a child, and then blame ourselves for being too permissive, too harsh, waiting too long to try to get help, or for denying the problem, like the parents above. 

It is just tragic in my opinion. If the kid is what he is, and there really isn't any cure for this. What is the answer? How do you keep society safe? You cannot imprison a child forever for killing a dog, but chances are way good that this won't be the end of this. Sad. 

Sociopaths are scary. I agree.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

J-Boo said:


> Sociopaths are some scary s***
> 
> There are two acquaintances of mine that I KNOW are sociopaths - of course there are really plenty of others, but two that I know of. One was the more impulsive, reckless kind. His goal was to die fleeing from police on his motorcycle. He achieved it at age 21. As a young teen he used to try to do...inappropriate things withe the family's female dog.
> 
> ...


I have worked with children with sociopathic tendencies. It is interesting to watch them calculate how they should respond to a situation. The thing is--there is nothing to work with. There just isn't any conscience and ALWAYS it is never their fault or responsibility for what they have done. They are ALWAYS justified to act as they want.

The one time a child had a un-calculated emotional response was when I told him to pick up garbage off the floor. He went ballistic to be told to do such a menial task which was totally beneath him.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I knew one such child. He could be charming but somehow you always felt something was missing in him, some depth..It's hard to explain. The worst thing was the manipulation and continual lies he told, even about things that didn't even matter. I sometimes wonder where he is now and what happened to him but I doubt it was anything good.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

I am so happy they are making this a felony! I just can't even imagine harming an animal like that and if you have not trouble doing that, you probably have no trouble doing it to anyone else just for the heck of it.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm not so sure this is such a great idea. Whereas, I certainly want those who intentionally harm animals to be held accountable for their crimes, I fear this is just being used to blindfold the American people while true intentions are now backed by the power of the law. I can see groups like PETA rejoicing over this. 

If you look at the article's description of 'Mental Abuse' in pets, those symptoms are all over this forum. Folks asking advice for their DA pets...dogs that suffer from separation anxiety, dogs that are becoming aggressive towards their neighbors through the fence ...etc. It's all subjective at that point. Now, not only will pet owners be concerned with training their reactive dogs, they'll have to truly consider the possibilities of having felony charges brought against them. How will that possibility turn out for the dogs in question?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Lilie said:


> I'm not so sure this is such a great idea. Whereas, I certainly want those who intentionally harm animals to be held accountable for their crimes, I fear this is just being used to blindfold the American people while true intentions are now backed by the power of the law. I can see groups like PETA rejoicing over this.
> 
> If you look at the article's description of 'Mental Abuse' in pets, those symptoms are all over this forum. Folks asking advice for their DA pets...dogs that suffer from separation anxiety, dogs that are becoming aggressive towards their neighbors through the fence ...etc. It's all subjective at that point. Now, not only will pet owners be concerned with training their reactive dogs, they'll have to truly consider the possibilities of having felony charges brought against them. How will that possibility turn out for the dogs in question?


Anybody can be accused of anything but evidence is needed. I would imagine there would have to be more then aple enough evidence for charges to be brought such as pictures, deceased animals ,multiple witnesses, and physical evidence of the animal itself. If someone is dealing with a pet who has behavioral issues they should have no fears even if they have to deal with a misunderstood stranger. Im sure they have many witnesses, trainers , questions on forums to stand behind them that they are acting as a responsible owner. If this law helps get some sociopaths off the street and save some animals then the world can be a better place


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Anybody can be accused of anything but evidence is needed.


Well no, it really isn't. Not in this day and age of the internet. You can destroy someone with a false accusation via Facebook etc. 
Let's consider a few things. First, according to PETA, just owning an animal is cruelty. On a daily basis they are accusing legal businesses of cruelty and attacking them on the internet. Then we have the politicians who try to take advantage of it and try to outlaw activities involving animals. 
Or, someone is accused, their animals are seized without cause and they are faced with HUGE legal bills either fighting to get their animals back or defending themselves in court. Many accept plea deals because they just cannot afford it. 

We have a guilty until proven innocent mentality when it comes to animals now. Way too much emotion and very little thought. I watch with complete disgust the many Facebook hate campaigns directed at businesses and people who are considered "cruel" by mostly mentally unstable people. The latter people are winning. It is very reminiscent of other evil events in history involving mob mentality.

It is downright frightening what is happening now.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

selzer said:


> I don't know if batterers are considered sociopaths or not, but I hope that someday they truly treat abusing someone's animal specifically to hurt them as an assault on the owner, especially when fathers and step fathers do it to their children. I think that this can cause some separation in kids' minds where they learn never to become attached to anything because it will be used against them.


Females who have ben victimized by domestic violence report that their animals are assualted ,abused and killed as part of the cycle of battering. Juveniles who harm animals are not typically very common place but when that is a behavior its incredibly hard to treat. My experience with juvenile felony offenders is that85% of them want amd respond positively to an animal,dog .cat and if they have the right supervision and the family has the fianancial where with all can benefit from taking care of an animal. The most thereapuetic thing Ive ever done with clients was a dog program where inmates trained dogs to be companions (pets)

Ive spent the last thirty years working in corrections and in providing psych services to adults and juveniles. I hvae met some stone cold anti social personalities.Ive also met 5th generation domestic violence survivors who carried on the trauma to their next generation. I read the article pretty quickly and I agree with the FBI's decision. Harming an animal is indicative of socio -psycho -anti social personalities. However its also not seen the same in third world countries where human survival is still the primary focus of most of the population. I think cruelty to animals ,torture ,causing pain disfigurement is globally a huge indicator of pathology and criminalaity.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Allow me to add that all the things you think are necessary are not. Look a little further, horses standing out in the snow result in multiple calls to the police because ignorant people think it is cruel. No facts needed. Addresses posted on Facebook resulting in incredible harassment from groups of morons who again, have zero knowledge of animal care etc. Look into it further. You just might be horrified at what you see.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Magwart said:


> A very successful Florida prosecutor who's known as one of the best animal cruelty prosecutors in the country told me that his experience has shown that if an animal is being abused chances are sky-high that a woman or child is also being abused in the same home.


 
Absolutely


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jenny720;6884593 If this law helps get some sociopaths off the street and save some animals then the world can be a better place[/QUOTE said:


> I agree. Totally. But, I fear it's not going to be used for that purpose. If we are considering a child in this instance, he/she would be a minor. Charging them with a felony isn't going to change their course in life. Not if we are considering the possibility of a mental illness.
> 
> Charging the husband with a felony because he beat the dog, instead of the child, might help save a life. I suppose like a restraining order would, unless the husband (or wife for that matter) does time. But it wouldn't be a life time. It wouldn't be hard time, if it's the first time he was caught.
> 
> ...


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

The FBI categorizing cruelty to animals as a category a offense doesnt actually change how states and counties will charge folks. It just means for purposes of research and cummalitive research cruelty to animals will be in the same category as murder,DV and other crimes against persons.At least that was how I understood the article.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Vandal said:


> Well no, it really isn't. Not in this day and age of the internet. You can destroy someone with a false accusation via Facebook etc.
> Let's consider a few things. First, according to PETA, just owning an animal is cruelty. On a daily basis they are accusing legal businesses of cruelty and attacking them on the internet. Then we have the politicians who try to take advantage of it and try to outlaw activities involving animals.
> Or, someone is accused, their animals are seized without cause and they are faced with HUGE legal bills either fighting to get their animals back or defending themselves in court. Many accept plea deals because they just cannot afford it.
> 
> ...


Evidence is needed to be convicted. I should of made myself clear. You can sue for slander if false accusations are made and win with a good lawyer. Yes I agree the internet is out of control and so are some people but that should not interfere with consequences being handed out to those who truly abuse animals and most of those people who delibrately abuse animals are usually guilty of commiting other criminal acts.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Evidence is needed to be convicted. I should of made myself clear. You can sue for slander if false accusations are made and win with a good lawyer. Yes I agree the internet is out of control and so are some people but that should not interfere with consequences being handed out to those who truly abuse animals and most of those people who delibrately abuse animals are usually guilty of commiting other criminal acts.


I actually understood what you were saying but the "reality" of what you are saying is what I am disagreeing with. Sure, you can sue someone or fight back in court...IF you have the money. Talked to a lawyer lately? Most people simply cannot afford to sue someone or even defend themselves properly in court. 

I am not disagreeing about REAL acts of cruelty either. There is a legal definition for the word cruelty but nowadays, people fling that word around due to simple ignorance or crazy animal rights ideology and lots of innocent people are paying the price.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Vandal said:


> I actually understood what you were saying but the "reality" of what you are saying is what I am disagreeing with. Sure, you can sue someone or fight back in court...IF you have the money. Talked to a lawyer lately? Most people simply cannot afford to sue someone or even defend themselves properly in court.
> 
> I am not disagreeing about REAL acts of cruelty either. There is a legal definition for the word cruelty but nowadays, people fling that word around due to simple ignorance or crazy animal rights ideology and lots of innocent people are paying the price.


Well I think we are all talking about the real acts of cruelty here. Yes the world is filled with judgmental uneducated people and for people making false accusations due to ignorance should be heavily penalizd but again they should not be the reason to dismiss the real acts of animal cruelty.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Well, I understand the concerns, but I think law enforcement has bigger fish to fry than to worry too much about a dog's mental state. They are having trouble even keeping up with all the murders and rapes and armed robberies, etc, in most places. This law is more a means to an end, I believe. Since people who commit acts of animal cruelty also frequently commit crimes against people, they are hoping if they bust a dog-fighting ring, for example, that they will find a few killers and pedophiles in the bargain. So to me, it's seems like a win-in situation, protect the people and the animals at the same time. I think it's great.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Well I think we are all talking about the real acts of cruelty here.


Actually not everyone and what Lilie said and you commented on, is what prompted me to comment.
Sure, we can make things into far more serious crimes "hoping" the laws will be fairly administered. What is going on with animal rights fanatics today, makes the possibility they won't be, greater. There are some serious downsides that people simply are not considering because they aren't paying attention.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Are the FBI and PETA linked now? I think most police departments wouldn't want to be associated with PETA, and yes they have better things to do, for the most part. 

But then the cops that threatened to charge me with animal cruelty for having my dog in the car in 50 degree weather, because it was too cold. 

Yes, I can see where this could get ugly. 

How many people say their dog must have been abused because it is hand-shy, when in fact, some of our breed just have weak nerves. If that is evidence of abuse, a whole lot of us better get accustomed to the idea of proving ourselves innocent.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

selzer said:


> Are the FBI and PETA linked now? I think most police departments wouldn't want to be associated with PETA, and yes they have better things to do, for the most part.
> 
> But then the cops that threatened to charge me with animal cruelty for having my dog in the car in 50 degree weather, because it was too cold.
> 
> ...


 Yes, you are right, Selzer, I am sure there will be mistakes along the way and times when poor judgment is used, just like with the incident involving your dog. I am not near as worried about the "good guys," though, as I am about the bad. If this law makes things any safer for people and animals by getting some of the more vicious criminals off the street, I will gladly accept the risk of being confronted by an over-zealous law enforcement official.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I will gladly accept the risk of being confronted by an over-zealous law enforcement official.


Yes, it's all really easy to say that kind of thing but when it actually happens to you, it's a whole other ball game. Mistakes are often made and people are fast and loose with the facts nowadays in their zeal to punish anyone they don't agree with. 
As I have already said, delve into what is going on with the AR crowd and you might just decide you don't want to take that chance.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

BTW, that article is basically AR propaganda. Loaded with terms used by PETA such as "specism" and their opinion on animals being property etc. You better hope they stay property or many of us will no longer be allowed to own them. That's the goal of PETA and more people should keep that in mind....and also consider the source of the articles you read before you too are brainwashed by those people.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I would like to see how this affects people who run those puppy mills.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

You're not going to be charged with felony animal abuse because your dog charges the fence..... there are numerous signals and a lot of it comes down to veterinary evidence.

How things are handled will still largely stay the same. For example, animal control initially investigating. Animal control is WELL aware of what aggravating a dog over a fence line can lead to - barking. In many areas barking dog complaints are dismissed if they involve someone standing directly on the other side of the fence, if it is continuously only 1 (probably disgruntled) neighbor complaining, etc...

Having attempted to turn clients in for animal abuse with compelling medical evidence, it's a long process. It's not just a phone call "yeah their dog barked at me, they obviously beat it" and then arrests are made. 

This should NOT be turned down because it "may" be an inconvenience for you at some point in your life (selfish thought, really). Animal abuse should absolutely be a felony offense. Both because of the implications it has for future behavior, and because of the pain and suffering it inflicts directly onto the animals.

The majority of people working in the animal field - animal control, etc - 100% have the best intentions in mind.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

When I worked at the vet there was a guy who kept making an appointment to have his 2 yr old Doberman put to sleep, because it was aggressive. He made the appointment, canceled, scheduled again, this went on for a couple months. Finally I looked at his history. 5 dogs, 3 GSDs and 2 dobermans put yo sleep before the age of two. When he finally brought the dog in, he signed the papers, handed him over and walked out. The dog had noticeable bruises and the vet knew the dog was abused. That dog was so happy, he ran around the office for a couple hours and then the vet put him to sleep. It was so very sad and I quit the next day. That dog will forever be in my heart. I kept his collar, named my cat Harley after him and I think of him often. He deserved so much more. That dog should have lived and that owner should have been investigated for abuse but nothing was done and that dog died for no reason. It broke my heart...


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

llombardo said:


> When I worked at the vet there was a guy who kept making an appointment to have his 2 yr old Doberman put to sleep, because it was aggressive. He made the appointment, canceled, scheduled again, this went on for a couple months. Finally I looked at his history. 5 dogs, 3 GSDs and 2 dobermans put yo sleep before the age of two. When he finally brought the dog in, he signed the papers, handed him over and walked out. The dog had noticeable bruises and the vet knew the dog was abused. That dog was so happy, he ran around the office for a couple hours and then the vet put him to sleep. It was so very sad and I quit the next day. That dog will forever be in my heart. I kept his collar, named my cat Harley after him and I think of him often. He deserved so much more. That dog should have lived and that owner should have been investigated for abuse but nothing was done and that dog died for no reason. It broke my heart...


:teary: That broke my heart.. I thought there was going to be a happy endign to that one when I started reading.. so very sad. More reason to want something like this to be done.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes there is a bigger picture here. There will always be people afraid of the law infringing on one's rights. Then they try to make everyone else afraid. Do people realize what this place would be like if there were no laws? Animals deserve some protection.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Vandal said:


> "BTW, that article is basically AR propaganda. Loaded with terms used by PETA such as "specism" and their opinion on animals being property etc. You better hope they stay property or many of us will no longer be allowed to own them. That's the goal of PETA and more people should keep that in mind....and also consider the source of the articles you read before you too are brainwashed by those people.


 "

Here is a direct quote from the article. It is not claiming that animals ARE property, it is saying that currently because animals are regarded as property under the law, it allows for an "anything goes" mentality in the area of their treatment. It also says that even though they are not human, they can still feel and should be afforded moral concern as well as protection under the law.

I agree with that wholeheartedly and if that means I am brainwashed, so be it.

*"The “property” status of animals exists because we claim “that animals have certain ‘defects,’ such as the inability to use language or a supposedly inferior intelligence, that permit us to treat them instrumentally, as means to our ends,” writes animal legal scholar Gary L. Francione. To “disqualify nonhumans from any significant moral concern is a form of discrimination known as speciesism” — the “use of species to determine membership in the moral community” — and is “really no different from using other criteria, such as race, sex, sexual orientation, or age,” writes Francione.
Still, says Bernstein even with the property constraint, the skilled prosecutor will argue that animals are “sentient beings” — somewhere between human and non-human beings. To support his argument the prosecutor has a good deal of precedent to draw from, namely a body of case law, i.e., jury verdicts and judges’ rulings."*


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

llombardo said:


> When I worked at the vet there was a guy who kept making an appointment to have his 2 yr old Doberman put to sleep, because it was aggressive. He made the appointment, canceled, scheduled again, this went on for a couple months. Finally I looked at his history. 5 dogs, 3 GSDs and 2 dobermans put yo sleep before the age of two. When he finally brought the dog in, he signed the papers, handed him over and walked out. The dog had noticeable bruises and the vet knew the dog was abused. That dog was so happy, he ran around the office for a couple hours and then the vet put him to sleep. It was so very sad and I quit the next day. That dog will forever be in my heart. I kept his collar, named my cat Harley after him and I think of him often. He deserved so much more. That dog should have lived and that owner should have been investigated for abuse but nothing was done and that dog died for no reason. It broke my heart...


 
Despicable behavior. It makes me very sad but also very angry.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Here is a direct quote from the article. It is not claiming that animals ARE property, it is saying that currently because animals are regarded as property under the law, it allows for an "anything goes" mentality in the area of their treatment.


I read it and animals are indeed property and they should remain property so that we can all enjoy them without worrying about endless Govt. regulations and cost in order to keep them. Not that it has helped so far but it will get far worse if we are ever deemed "guardians".

There is no "anything goes" mentality with animals. There are laws against cruelty and most of all, the real cases of it need to be enforced. We don't actually need more or tougher laws, we need the money to enforce the ones that exist already.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

As for the trying to scare people remarks. I would settle for people simply looking at both sides of the issue. There is much that most people just refuse to look at.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Vandal said:


> I read it and animals are indeed property and they should remain property so that we can all enjoy them without worrying about endless Govt. regulations and cost in order to keep them. Not that it has helped so far but it will get far worse if we are ever deemed "guardians".
> 
> There is no "anything goes" mentality with animals. There are laws against cruelty and most of all, the real cases of it need to be enforced. We don't actually need more or tougher laws, we need the money to enforce the ones that exist already.


Sorry, I did not understand where you were coming from. 

I read something once that made a big impression on me: That whenever a group starts to talk about another group as "sub-human" you better watch out because the first step towards genocide is to dehumanize the group. After all, you don't have to feel near as guilty enslaving or killing those that are not human. They don't hurt like we do so it's OK.

I know it's not exactly the same, but I think that same sort of mindset may give some people the idea (particularly those who have no value for life anyway) that it is OK to do whatever you want with your property. Property doesn't cry, it doesn't hurt, it can't be made to suffer. I think it was this idea that made people in our own government think that it was OK to leave our war dogs in southeast asia after the war.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> I know it's not exactly the same, but I think that same sort of mindset may give some people the idea (particularly those who have no value for life anyway) that it is OK to do whatever you want with your property. Property doesn't cry, it doesn't hurt, it can't be made to suffer. I think it was this idea that made people in our own government think that it was OK to leave our war dogs in southeast asia after the war.


Most people have no idea animals are considered property. The majority now seem to have very little knowledge of the law when it comes to animals, or what our rights are, (and why they are important).
I did'nt know animals were property until the last ten or fifteen years, yet I still treated my animals well. We are talking about people who are either mentally ill, or have been raised with a certain mentality and as you just said, have no value for life. 

I think what most do not understand is how new laws and harsher penalties can have a rather significant affect on the people who do care for their pets. What I said earlier about politicians and what they are willing to put law abiding people through in order to stay in office, is something I have experienced personally. 
I own a kennel and breed occasionally. In the eyes of the ARs that immediately places me in the dog abuser category. All of the kennels in my area came under attack by AR groups who decided that anyone who breeds, is a puppy mill. They wanted Puppy Mill laws and regulations enacted that would have basically removed our rights to own dogs or keep them on our properties that we all purchased, and improved, for that specific purpose. The expense of following their suggested regulations would have made it impossible for just about all of us to continue....and that was their goal.
We were all approved and licensed and the Govt knew just where to find us because we had already agreed to inspections and were in complete compliance with the laws. We all received A grades during those inspections, yet the local Govt tried to have our land zoning changed so we could not breed dogs. All of these things were suggested by the AR groups who frequented the offices of the local County Supervisor.

My point, legally operated kennels were attacked for no apparent reason other than an ideology pushed by the AR groups. It took three years to work it all out. Three years where my animals were deprived of the attention I would have been giving them had I not had to attend one legal proceeding and meeting after the other in order to defend my rights to keep them. Much more to the story but that will have to do so I can talk about the other side without writing a book.

I helped my friend start and operate what is now a very large horse rescue. We have gone into areas to retrieve horses who were a 1 on the body scale and within days, sometimes within hours, of death. Two of the worst cases, we picked up within blocks of each other and they were advertised on Craigslist. When you drive into those areas there are dogs running through the street, animals in deplorable condition in plain sight. While we did have one of those people prosecuted by providing the needed documentation, ( and also really pushing for it), it took me contacting the head of AC, ( who I knew from having to deal with the situation with my kennel), to achieve the needed urgency to save the rest of the starving animals on one of the properties. 

A man who works for me tells me he can see starving horses in yards just driving down the main street in that town. Where is AC? Well, they don't have the funds to go looking. People are many times frightened to turn in their neighbors who do these things. I can tell you, the people who do this stuff are rather interesting. They profess their love for the animals while standing next to what is basically death warmed over and seeming not to notice. I really can't even get upset at some of them, they are that empty inside. I almost pity them. 

My point is, there is so much more to this. More laws or making things felonies just isn't going to do the trick when the funds are not there to help the animals. I think mostly people push for these things because they want someone else to deal with it. Either because of fear or not wanting to be involved. It takes effort and courage to help animals in a way that will work for them. Education as well and maybe addressing why these people are this way. Punishment will only achieve so much but it seems to be what people want the most nowadays.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Vandal said:


> Most people have no idea animals are considered property. The majority now seem to have very little knowledge of the law when it comes to animals, or what our rights are, (and why they are important).
> I did'nt know animals were property until the last ten or fifteen years, yet I still treated my animals well. We are talking about people who are either mentally ill, or have been raised with a certain mentality and as you just said, have no value for life.
> 
> I think what most do not understand is how new laws and harsher penalties can have a rather significant affect on the people who do care for their pets. What I said earlier about politicians and what they are willing to put law abiding people through in order to stay in office, is something I have experienced personally.
> ...


I am truly sorry for your ordeal, it sounds like you were put through the mill. I can't say it changed my mind because I truly believe that the law has to recognize that animals are not things, but living, breathing creatures who deserve our concern and protection. And I have to say that with something like intentional cruelty, I don't think all the education/counseling in the world is going to help. There is something missing in these people, and by the time they are adults at least, it is too late to fix. Perhaps the only thing we can do, for the safety of all concerned, is to try to keep them off the street.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> can't say it changed my mind because I truly believe that the law has to recognize that animals are not things, but living, breathing creatures who deserve our concern and protection.


The laws DO recognize that! You can't be cruel to an inanimate object. When people USE the existing laws and make complaints about LEGITIMATE cruelty, they do help animals. The problem now is, so many people who are ignorant about animals complaining about things that are not in any way cruel and using up valuable resources.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

Property is (or should be)an inanimate object, so if animals are property, how can we be cruel to it?

I would have no problem with using the existing laws if they would do the job, but there are still far, far too many cases of animals beaten to death, doused with gasoline and set on fire, cut, burned and tortured and even when the culprits are caught and prosecuted, they get a slap on the wrist and go on their merry way. So, if the FBI can help put some of these monsters away, and capture a rapist or pedophile at the same time, I say more power to them.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Property is (or should be)an inanimate object, so if animals are property, how can we be cruel to it?


 Clearly you do not understand property law and why animals should remain property and no, property is not simply inanimate objects. There is a very good reason, within the law, that animals are property. You will have to look up property law if you are interested in educating yourself further.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

newlie said:


> Property is (or should be)an inanimate object, so if animals are property, how can we be cruel to it?
> 
> I would have no problem with using the existing laws if they would do the job, but there are still far, far too many cases of *animals beaten to death, doused with gasoline and set on fire, cut, burned and tortured* and even when the culprits are caught and prosecuted, they get a slap on the wrist and go on their merry way. So, if the FBI can help put some of these monsters away, and capture a rapist or pedophile at the same time, I say more power to them.


There are laws against every one of these, new laws will not do anything. However, if law enforcement recognizes the link between animal cruelty and other serious criminal behavior they may take it more seriously.

As property, my dogs have some protection. No one can take or damage my property without being guilty of a crime. Having legally obtained my property, I have some rights associated with it. I am responsible for my property, if my property puts a hole in someone's leg or hand, I am liable. So I have to take care of my property and keep it safe. 

I do not see any other designation that can be used for animals. Being an owner of animals means being responsible for everything concerning the critter. I think that is how it ought to be. 

Women and children on are not property. Dogs are not on the same plane as men, women, or children. Sorry. Yes, they are living creatures with individual personalities and a range of emotions. But they are not humans. And to function in our society, they have to have a responsible human to manage them, to be accountable for them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Police called after Washington motorist reports 'tiger' on car roof | US news | The Guardian because anyone can call authorities.... smh


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Vandal said:


> I read it and animals are indeed property and they should remain property so that we can all enjoy them without worrying about endless Govt. regulations and cost in order to keep them. Not that it has helped so far but it will get far worse if we are ever deemed "guardians".
> 
> There is no "anything goes" mentality with animals. There are laws against cruelty and most of all, the real cases of it need to be enforced. We don't actually need more or tougher laws, we need the money to enforce the ones that exist already.


Yup, nuff laws already, just need to enforce them.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

I don't consider Newlie as property, to me he is a dependent and as such, I am responsible for taking care of him, protecting him and managing his behavior. No, he is not on the same level as human beings but he is more than a TV set or a microwave or a piece of furniture. I see animals as living creatures who should not be treated as disposable, like an old pair of tennis shoes that you don't like anymore.

Ah well, this appears to be one of those situations where nobody is going to change anyone else's mind. It's nice to be able to debate ideas, though, particularly if people can avoid the temptation to get nasty. After all, the world would be a pretty dull place if everybody had the same opinion.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

newlie said:


> I don't consider Newlie as property, to me he is a dependent and as such, I am responsible for taking care of him, protecting him and managing his behavior.


I'd encourage you to look up your state's legal definition of 'dependent' and 'property'. Consider what recourse you would have to protect your animals should they be labeled one or the other.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I went to school with this guy, he was kind of a friend, we had art class together, he had my phone number and we spoke a couple of times over the phone. He was odd, but I never really paid too much attention to it.

Well, when he was 15/16 he harmed a friend's dog and then tied his friend up with the dog leash. When he was 16 years old he killed his friend's younger sister and her best friend, they were 8 and 9 years old. He sexually assaulted them and stabbed them to death. He got away with it because the police believed it was one of the girl's father that killed them. Nobody expected him at all. He continued to go to class, he graduated with me and I have a photo of him and I on graduation day. He ended up joining the Marine Corps. He ended up killing a woman that was also a Marine. Nobody expected him. He went on to rob and abduct 2 women that were able to escape him. Then he abducted a 3rd woman, sexually assualted her several times, he choked her with her scarf, he thought she was dead so he pushed her out of his vehicle and into a snowbank. She lived. After they caught him he plotted to have all of the witnesses killed. He threatened to kill the children of a correctional officer and told his cellmate that he will kill a guard just so he could get the death penalty.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

holy crap lauren


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> holy crap lauren


No freaking kidding. I knew he was different but I never, ever saw that coming. Totally blew my mind. I introduced him to my family and we took a photo together and everything. I cannot believe he just came to school and acted as if nothing happened.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

did he admit to all that? Or they figured it out after he was caught?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> did he admit to all that? Or they figured it out after he was caught?


He admitted and boasted about all of it. He showed zero remorse for what he did.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I forgot to mention that he killed the 2 little girls on Mother's Day.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> He admitted and boasted about all of it. He showed zero remorse for what he did.


It's folks like that I wish we were able to open up and see where the wiring went wrong.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

The Uniform Crime report has categories of crimes. What the FBI did was categorize reports of animal cruelty in the same category as other violent crimes. They did this because psychologists and other behavioralscience folks have known for years that cruelty to animals is a clear sign of an anti social personality . This change in the category where animal cruelty is found does not change the law but may be used by various states to change what the legal consequences for animal cruelty. The example in the article was dog fighting and that many people arrested for that crime also have other illegal behaviors and convictions. They are not folks w/ prosocial values as they don't have empathy. Each state will decide whether the FBI classification of cruelty to animals to a category A offense means they should or should not change their current laws and legal consequences for such crimes


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## Kahrg4 (Dec 19, 2012)

LaRen616 said:


> He admitted and boasted about all of it. He showed zero remorse for what he did.


And that is what makes a psychopath. Self aggrandizement, lack of sympathy or empathy, highly manipulative, everything the article states. 

I remember going to a school with a girl like this. Even as a 6 year old she was such a pathological liar my friends and I (who were the same age) picked up on it. There were only 8 girls in our class so we all had to interact. I was at her house one day and she pulled out this barbie camper van toy that unfolded out into like a picnic set up. I remember watching this 9 year old class mate kind of stupefied as she smashed the cat into the van, folded it back up, and sent it flying down the staircase of their two-story home. After that my mom wouldn't let me play at her house anymore

Looking back as an adult there were so many other signs too. She's her parent's youngest child and can do no wrong. My classmates and I always knew her to be mean and sneaky, occasionally violent, and unstoppable liar, etc. No matter how many times we would try to bring it to the attention of adults she always got away with it. 

In college she dated whoever was the biggest sugar daddy. Went on to major in behavioral disorders. Wonder why? 

She now works as a special education teacher.


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