# probiotics and enzymes



## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Is it a good idea to added a digestive enzyme to a senior dogs diet proactively? In other words, if the dog is doing fine, would it be beneficial to add this to her diet? She is 11 and I read that they tend to not digest well as they age. 

thanks


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I do add enzymes for the older dogs and I think I can tell a difference.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

especially beneficial because the ability to digest and absorb has declined.
probiotics and digestive enzymes will keep his immune system strong and resistant to disease , Bernard vs Pasteur - Pasteur recants on his germ theory and concedes to Bernard's studies on the "environment" (meaning internal)

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Jgk2383 (Aug 5, 2009)

Which enzymes do you recommend carmen? Is Prozyme good? I feed Raw.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

loaded question because I do have supplements --
yes Prozyme is very good. 4 basic enzymes protease, lipase, cellulase, and amylase Prozyme - Canada - Digestive Enzyme Pet Supplement

A digestive enzyme is not the same as probiotic. Prozyme is very good -- .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Prozyme has worked well for some of my seniors and not as well for others. 

Overall I've had better luck with Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

What about digest-All Plus, is that worth using? what is the difference between probiotic and digestive enzymes?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Hey Kids !!! Any one remember Pepsin Gum. Used to be my favourite , then I was informed that the Pepsin was, well, pepsin , a digestive enzyme sourced from the gut of a pig. Took the fun right out of it - so it was on ward and up ward to double your pleasure double your fun with double mint, double mint, double mint gum. - but then I found out that pepsin and rennet are used to make cheese and that I do like .
Pepsin is the enzyme sourced from an animal gut , usually pork or horse. It is a protease . There are plant sourced protease - two of the most rich sources being Papaya for papain , and Pineapple (stem) for bromelain. There are commercial meat tenderizers that are basically papain - or you could take your tougher cut of beef and sprinkle papain on it or rub with a fresh raw papaya -- .
The enzyme in this case protease will act on the protein and reduce it to single isolate amino acids . The protein is then hydrolized. I was speaking with a forum member the other day and they said they had to feed the dog a special hydrolized diet, well this is basically all that it is , PRE - digested, broken down to the smallest units. If the protein is not broken down due to inadequate enzymes , then the protein molecules will remain in larger units which escape into the bloodstream and cause allergies. While we are on protease, protein and the bloodstream. Another function of protease is is clean up debris in the bloodstream -- read bacteria and virus !!! , so a compromised or ill or aged animal / being , needs more protein , more protease . When the protein is thoroughly broken down it is properly metabolized . 

Each enzyme works on a specific set of bonds or chains. Each enzyme workds best in a specific pH . Amylase works on starches and sugars , remember amidon is French for starch . Lipase , lipids, work on fats. Cellulose or plant cell structure , fibre, is broken down by cellulase.
So enzymes can be sourced from animal or plant , fungi . They are other intrinsic produced by the body in the digestive system and able to be depleted , or they are extinsic from an outside source such as the actual food stuff that has not been cooked -- so raw in a natural state. We never had to think about this before but foods that are irradiated , deliberately exposed to radiation , is rendered "cooked" . 
Carnivores would have a greater ability by enzymes that they secrete and ingest to break down protein - sort of species appropriate -- a herbivore , a horse would have little need of this , and the enzymes that they have are totally different. One reason why grains are not really for dogs -- not equipped with cellulase or as much amylase . 
When food provided is always cooked, inherent enzymes destroyed, then the body works hard to manufacture the enzymes , the bank deposit is going going gone -- decline with age . So a replenishment and some assistance with an aged dog or yes even person will help nourish and help reduce allergies to undigested proteins etc.

Probiotics are different . They are essentially living things, bacteria , which are healthfull to you. A digestive enzyme is a catalyst. A probiotic is a living, multiplying, colonizing being, with a life cycle . Every time you use an anti biotic you apply a scorched earth attack cleaning out harmful and beneficial bacteria. The balance should be somewhat in the 80% beneficial to 20% expected other/ pathogenic, which is kept in check . When you use an anti biotic you destroy that ratio , turning it around , so the next time you have a worse situation , or you have a problem elsewhere. Interesting reading on Louis Pasteur and his germ theory. He was absolutely convinced that the germ was responsible for the illness and all arsenal had to be used against it. His competition Bernard , insisted that it was the terrain, the milleu , the environment which allowed or halted or prevented illness . Instead of erradicate the offender, improve the situation in favour or supportive of the beneficial environment rending it inhospitable and unlivable . On his death bed Pasteur recanted and said that Bernard had been right all along , and yet here we are some 100 years plus still operating with the Pasteur germ theory -- too clean -- and then we have bubble-boy children , or incompetent immune systems.
So last night Saturday , I watched a program called The History of Science -- and they started the conversation with Phages , bacteria , probiotics, dna , double helix, which Watson with his wealth and March of Dimes funding , stoll , and admitted to , writing private notes, the property of cautious, prior to publishing , Rosalind Franklin on his sleeve -- . 
Metchinkoff was interested in phages and bacteria. Part of his work at the Pasteur Institute lead him to think about why certain populations were able to live almost twice the life span of their european counter parts. And so he went to observe one group , the elderly of Georgian Russia where a very high ratio of the populace lived to 100 years plus+. Part of the diet was to drink fermented milk, eat fermented vegetables, sauerkraut being a good example. In honour of the people of this area he named the first probiotic lactobacillus bulgaricus , Georgia , being Bulgaria. 
From there research took off -- Shirota who popularized yogourt , to the point where probiotics are a billions a year industry.
Some probiotics enhance the immune system by crowding out pathogenic bacteria. Others convert vitamin k 1 to vitamin k 2 , which is anti cancer. 
Taken from The Gut Solution Gut Solutions: Natural Solutions for Your Digestive Conditions: Amazon.ca: Brenda Watson, Leonard Smith: Books pathogenic bacteria are able to deactivate pancreatic enzymes needed to digest protein, consume vitamin B 12 , produce ammonia - taxing the liver and kidneys , inactivate intestinal enzymes, destroy essential fatty acids rendering them into free radicals (oxidative /rot/rust) inactivate flavinoids, degrade protective mucuc of intestinal lining , produce carcinogens , eat nutrients - produce toxins - damage lining causing leaky gut - create immune havoc imbalance , leading to autoimmune lupus , arthritis , produce enzymes that affect normal metabolism of hormones like estrogen which is able to be resorbed in the body leading to fibrocystic disease and cancer , enter the bloodstream via a wound and take up residence in the lungs, and cause urine infections. 
The author goes on to say that if one were to take ONE supplement it would be a very good probiotic . That combined with high fibre, Essential fatty Acids, the probiotic formula and digestive enzymes.
That is the very thing that I have tried to provide with my supplements.

Unfortunately conventional medicine , veterinary or for ourselves addresses these problems with anti biotics , which only create more problems. We are in such a state of anti biotic over prescription that we have several strains of bacteria that have adapted and are resistant. Big trouble -- You can use anti bacterials to the point where life is not sustainable you kill the pathogen and you kill the host who dies of malnutrition, starvation. 
At the very least if anti biotics are truly needed then replenish the favourable gut flora immediately after the course of mediction with probiotics-- as many strains as you can get , beyond the 3 or 4 available in yogourt (wimpy- but better than nothing).

So there is the 411 on digestive enzymes and probiotics. I am sure there will be some person who will pooh pooh the whole idea -- who am I to argue with Nobel Prize winners , specialists in the field . If you do anything for yourself, your children , your dog -please adopt the habit of supplementing with a good probiotic.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you had better luck because prozyme is dedicated digestive enzymes ,
the formula you used did have probiotics.

like mine better if I can say that here.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

> If you do anything for yourself, your children , your dog -please adopt the habit of supplementing with a good probiotic.


Do you supplement puppies with probiotics? If so at what age? Also, can human probiotics be used or are there some specific for dogs? My puppy (11 months) is doing very well however I take probiotics and it makes sense that they would be good for our dogs too. I just want to make sure it's OK for puppies and if particular PB need to be used.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes my dogs do get digestive enzymes and probiotics in minor supply when being weaned onto the raw food. I never have any diarrhea , even if I switch from raw chicken to orijen the next day and then back or any protein source. I feed raw , but to familiarize pups with the idea of accepting kibble as food I give the the odd meal of kibble , makes moving to a new home easier . I just don't have the problems that I see over and over on the forum.
Human probiotics will not harm the dog one bit. Generally formulaes made for dogs have some different strains which are more suitable to the length of the dogs digestive system , and the foods that the dog would be eating. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think I asked before. WHat about kefir? Made from kefir grains but unfortaley *not* raw milk.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes kefir is excellent . I am fortunate that I can get commercial kefir, Liberty being one brand , at local grocers. I can also get goat and sheep milk kefir at the alternative grocery (organics) . Goat milk has a smaller protein molecule so is easier to digest at the outset . North Toronto has a rich mittle european and Russian community and you can get some really interesting versions . At the market I have a nice Russian lady bring me kefir "mothers" the grains , or a started batch -- looks gross -- but excellent for you. 

Kombucha is another probiotic drink . Tastes a little fizzy vinegary . Dogs can have it .

You can make your own sauerkraut - lacto fermented , teeming with probiotics. 
At the Russian grocer there are barrels of floating fermented apples and "things" .

For Ontario / greater Toronto area dog owners the area I am talking about is in the Steeles / Bathurst area -- and Dufferin south of Steeles.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there is a cook book that I have called Wild Fermentation by Sandor Elix Katz
- beers , wines & meads, miso and tempeh , sourdough bread, yogurt and cheese, vegetables krauts and kimchis -- The flavours nutrition and craft of live culture food.

He has a very good section of micro biodiversity. The greater and more diverse your gut flora is the more able you are to handle different foods and prevent illness. This is the terrain that Bernard was talking about Terrain - Anaerobic Cells - Pleomorphism - Cancer Herbs 

When you look in to the battle of these two giants Pasteur and Bernard, it does make you stop and think.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

probiotics are important for dogs being fed kibble .
when creating a mix do not use chlorinated water as chlorine will kill the living bacteria which is the reason you are giving the pro biotic for in the first place.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## unloader (Feb 16, 2010)

Is your product called Sunday Sundae? If someone were interested in purchasing it, do they contact you directly?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/150867-chronic-ear-infections.html#post2024020

*Sunday Sundae — *K9 All-Natural Probiotic and Digestive Aid – Used Daily to establish and restore an optimized digestive function to reduce or eliminate allergies and benefit overall immune health. It has 4 direct sources of digestive enzymes and probiotics. One source is a 14 strain digestive enzyme blend plus goat whey matrix. The whey powder provides electrolytes, minerals and digestive enzymes. Probiotics are provided by an 11 strain blend plus lacto-fermented goat protein powder. It contains Organic Red Raspberry, Apple fiber, Organic coconut flour, Apple pectin, Sweet Red Beet powder, Burdock Powder, Wheat grass powder, MEEKER red raspberry seed flour, 14 strain digestive enzyme blend, 11 strain probiotic blend, Goat protein powder (protein / probiotics), Goat whey powder (source electrolytes, minerals and digestive enzymes), Bee pollen powder, Acerola powder, Rosehip powder, Cranberry powder, Carrot powder, MSM, Marshmallow Root powder, Slippery Elm powder, Cinnamon Powder, Amla powder (Indian gooseberry), Bromelin powder, and Papain powder.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes it is and yes you can -- 
seen a lot of dramatic changes -- everything taken in to consideration from detox to regeneration to food breakdown to immune balance to gut colonizing bacteria .....
and there are so many fans that throw some in to their own smoothies or yogurt or fruit salad --- although I intend it to be for the dogs.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

I just came across this thread.

My husband and I take Bromelain (pineapple enzyme). 

Is this something I can give Joey proactively on a regular basis?

I also give him plain fat free Greek Yogurt, but probably not as much as I should be giving.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would pick kefir made from grains or pro-bios (commercial animal supplement) over Greek yogurt. E faecium is one of the primary good bacteria for dogs and it is in both, but I have not seen in many yogurts. All "greek" yogurt is regular yogurt that has been drained so that it is thicker.

Bromelain is actually in Prozyme.

Here is nice probiotic article (I think)
Modern Dog magazine | the best dog magazine ever


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## Cheerful1 (Sep 27, 2011)

Thanks, Nancy!


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## rockhead (Jul 8, 2007)

Just thought I'd throw this out there...

Rookie was very sick last week... vomiting blood, not eating, no stool. X-rays were negative for a blockage, but partial blockage was not being ruled out. (see my thread in the health section) After three days of no interest in food I gave him a single, human-grade probiotic capsule one morning. He perked up a bit within a couple hours. After three hours he showed interest in a turkey sandwich I was eating, and he ate some sliced turkey. After six hours he was hounding me for food and ate a half-cup of boiled chicken mixed with a half-cup of kibble.

I immediately got him a dog designed enzyme product my vet recommended (no names being given as this is not a spam post). It's been three days on that and I am already noticing a big reduction in bad breath and his coat is soft and gleaming. 

I cannot be certain that the probiotic/enzyme is directly and solely responsible for his immediate turnaround and coat/breath improvement, but I'm keeping him on it for two reasons: 1. It sure _seems_ like it made a big difference, and 2. It can't hurt.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

What about the same for puppies?


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Also lookibg for a long term puppy probiotic. She enjoys fortiflora but I'm reading that's notso great.... suggestions?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do...AND I soak my food with them as well

Dogs have no salivary amylases for starch so as long as they get kibble.....I will supplement with a high amylase enzyme...I like Prozyme. Naming liked products is not spam anymore than saying you like a certain dog food.

Also Kefir and/or Pro Bios for me. ..I think with all the bugs out there feeding the good ones is a good thing. In nature I think dogs are eating rabbit poop, deer poop etc and taking advantage of those bacteria that way. I have obesrved my own dogs and the tendency is to mark carnivore poo and snack on herbivore poo.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm another Prozyme customer here. I have used it to settle down the digestive systems of several foster dogs fresh from the shelter. All of my dogs get it, and my senior gets more. I haven't been able to locate any major downside to using it, just benefits (be careful about using with antibiotics though -- ask your vet, as there is some indication enzymes can alter absorption of some antibiotics).

Another reason to use it for a senior is the bromelain in the Prozyme (or any other good enzyme product) may help with inflammation (arthritis): 





I will also note that some of "good" brands of kibble have a coating of probiotics on the kibble (applied after it cools) -- Fromm is an example. It's not as much as a supplement, but if you forget to supplement, the dogs are at least getting a steady, low dose of the probiotic in the kibble.


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## rockhead (Jul 8, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> Naming liked products is not spam anymore than saying you like a certain dog food.


I didn't insert brand names only because the tone of my post would have made it sound like I was pushing it and not making an honest endorsement. I didn't intend to imply that _anyone_ naming a product is doing so in the interest of spam. :thumbup:


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

I like when people post names, it helps us clueless kids =)


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Bumping this somewhat old thread.

Carmen- you mentioned that digestive enzymes are not the same as probiotics. Pimg just tested positive for Lyme and I will be putting her on a 30 day treatment of doxy soon. Someone mentioned I should give her probiotics during those 30 days. 

Should I give probiotics or digestive enzymes? I believe the thought is that doxy can be hard on the stomach and that one of the above options would help with that.

[EDIT]- isn't a probiotic actually bacteria? Would the doxycycline just kill it...? Maybe for this reason I _should_ be looking at digestive enzymes, not probiotics. Thoughts??


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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

wildo said:


> [EDIT]- isn't a probiotic actually bacteria? Would the doxycycline just kill it...? Maybe for this reason I _should_ be looking at digestive enzymes, not probiotics. Thoughts??


Yes, probiotics are bacteria but they are "good" bacteria that help to break down everything in the intestines. Anitibiotics don't distinguish between "good" bacteria and "bad" bacteria and wipe them both out. My vet (and personal doctor) recommend probiotics during and for a few weeks after courses of antibiotics to re-establish the "good" bacteria because with no bacteria at all, your dog (or you) could end up even sicker than before. I give my dog a combo of digestive enzymes and probiotics daily just because in the past he has had a sensitive tummy. By maintaining the "good" bacteria, you are promoting a more hospitable environment for complete digestion.

Edited to add: Enzymes help to break down the food and the probiotics help to ensure all the nutrients are properly absorbed so that what comes out as waste truly is waste.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Hmmm... but if the doxy kills off all the bacteria, are you wasting your money with the probiotics? Or maybe be adding extra good bacteria- not all of it will be killed of and you're hopefully left with a positive balance?

Any recommendations on brands?


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

It wont hurt to do both, ProZyme lasts forever for the $20 bottle and this probiotic: Amazon.com: NOW Foods Probiotic-10 25 Billion, 50 Vcaps: Health & Personal Care

This was recommended to me on other posts and Z is doing so much better =)


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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

wildo said:


> Hmmm... but if the doxy kills off all the bacteria, are you wasting your money with the probiotics? Or maybe be adding extra good bacteria- not all of it will be killed of and you're hopefully left with a positive balance?
> 
> Any recommendations on brands?


The point of taking probiotics is to re-introduce the "good" bacteria, which is most likely why doctors and vets recommend that are continuted to be taken AFTER the course of antibiotics is complete. Taking them in conjunction with the antibiotic is an attempt to ward off diarrhea by at least introducing some "good" bacteria, even if it is killed off daily with each dose of the antibiotic (or like you said, hopefully not all of it killed off). Even if without taking any antibiotics, probiotics will help keep a "regular" digestive cycle (normal poops that can be expected at the same time each day if food is taken at the same time each day) especially if there's a tendency for indigestion, gas, etc. I use a powder that I mix in with my dog's food, but I can't remember the name of off the top of my head. I will post it when I get home and can check the bottle.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

wildo said:


> Hmmm... but if the doxy kills off all the bacteria, are you wasting your money with the probiotics? Or maybe be adding extra good bacteria- not all of it will be killed of and you're hopefully left with a positive balance?
> 
> Any recommendations on brands?


It is just like people - you wait a few hours for the stomach to clear then give the good bacteria. Always gave the kids and myself yogurt (not the best for dogs) when we are taking antibiotics.

I buy the probios powder for horses. It is the same formulation as the dog formula.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Wildo, I mentioned a couple of posts up that I've seen some mentions in articles that there's digestive enzymes may alter the absorption of antibiotics. Ask your vet about this before supplementing, while you are doing the the Doxy.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks everyone for the info! That clears up a lot of questions! Magwart- I will be sure to ask about that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Probiotics when on Doxy are pretty important. Doxy is a nasty drug known to create intestinal irritation issues. The probiotics should be given a couple hours after the Doxy to repopulate the system in between doses. I prefer to give probiotics (or take them myself) for a couple weeks after the antibiotic is finished as well.


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## katro (Feb 26, 2013)

It's too late to edit my last post, but I use Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes & Probiotics: Amazon.com: Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes & Probiotics, 300 Grams: Pet Supplies


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Am I the only one that uses Digest all plus? I found this to work really well and is rather inexpensive.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Magwart said:


> Wildo, I mentioned a couple of posts up that I've seen some mentions in articles that there's digestive enzymes may alter the absorption of antibiotics. Ask your vet about this before supplementing, while you are doing the the Doxy.


Magwart- I could not get a straight answer from the vet on this. Are you able to link to some of the articles you mentioned?


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that the vet wasn't able to get you an answer, but I know it's frustrating to get that response. 

It's the bromelain that seems the ingredient to be cautious of with antibiotics. 

I would call your vet back and put it this way: "There is research suggesting that bromelain interacts with some classes of antibiotics. Can you please look up whether Doxycycline is one of those, and whether the level of supplementation I'm considering would be at a level that may cause an interaction?" Your vet _should _be able to do that -- mine would go online, do some research, and call me back with that kind of question because he'd be curious to learn about it, even if he didn't know the answer off the top of his head. 

NIH article discussing the classes of antibiotics in the interaction with bromelain:
Bromelain: MedlinePlus Supplements
(I have a hunch--but am not sure--that Doxy *may* be a member of the tetracycline group, mentioned in this article)

Here's a University of Maryland source with a bibliography :
Bromelain

Again, though, I'm not a vet. I'm just sharing things I've read in learning about digestive enzymes, since there's bromelain in the Prozyme that I use.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for the response. I also found Bromelain can affect (_increase_) absorption of tetracycline and wondered if that is what you were referring to.


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