# Are free GS Puppies a bad thing??



## JLynnR (Nov 30, 2015)

I am brand new to this forum and desperately in need of advice...or to be talked out of a possible mistake. 

First of all, a bit of dog history. We have only owned golden retrievers. We've had the free goldies, the cheap goldies, and my last one, Curry, - the uber expensive goldie. It IS true, you get what you pay for. After Curry, I swore I'd never again go for the "discount" dog.

That said, Curry died about 2 years ago and I'm finally ready for another dog. This time we are wanting a German shepherd. I know they are like apples and oranges, I'm not worried about that. We're big into our dogs. Lots of time, lots of patience, and lots of obedience training, etc. I have researched, petted, investigated, and hung out with Germans in my quest to see if I really want one. I do. My husband is a pilot and gone a lot. I want a dog who will bond closely and be protective. 

Here's my situation. I'm going to look at a litter of GS puppies on Tuesday. Annnnd....they are free. The father is a K9 police dog and the mom is of pretty good stock from what I can tell. The K9 belongs to the police department and is bred twice a year with the breeder's female. Well, they had an accidental hook up and there is an unexpected litter. Because of the arrangement with the police department (under contract or some such thing) the breeder cannot sell the puppies. She has to give them away. 

I'm not even going to pretend to understand this arrangement. I'm clueless in the K9 police dog breeding arena. And I don't have any information on the breeder. I'm not sure there is any to have. 

We are not really in a position, nor do we want to spend upwards of $1,500 for a dog again. That's why a free puppy from a K9 police dog, suspect as it could be, got our attention.

So, I'm wanting advice on what to look for when I check out the litter on Tuesday. Also, if anyone thinks I should pass on this altogether, I'm open to hearing that as well. Like I said, we've done "free" and the vet bills were anything but. And we've done "cheap" and the vet bills were...well, you get the idea.

Thanks.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I would really doubt the story. Sounds like it could be one of the many online or craigslist fabrications. Just saying. People love to throw around the K9 Police dog label here and there if they can get away with it. And IF it is true, a K9 police dog could also be a very hard dog to handle. I would really check this out because it doesn't add up as your intuition is already telling you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've never had a free, or even an inexpensive, pet. 

Ask to see the pedigree and ask what health testing has been done on the sire and dam. Looking up the sire to verify he is really a K9 shouldn't be hard. Just look up the police station.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Karin has already pointed out many of the points that got my attention as well. for one, my neighbors irresponsibly breed their GSDs twice a year - the epitome of backyard breeders as the puppies are literally whelped and reared in their disgusting backyard full time. the dam has large litters and when they can no longer get $300 for the puppies, the rest are given away from free. I often hear him on the phone responding to inquiries and you've got it, the sire is his buddies police K9 (he's not! I saw him as a puppy and the only time he leaves their yard is when he hops the fence)

anyway, tangent!! ....if the story is true then I would suspect that the dogs check out health wise. although I'm not sure how an accidental litter happened, if they're already breeding her twice a year - dogs only go into season twice a year? either way, not only is going from a golden to a gsd a leap, I certainly would expect these pups to be quite a bit more to handle in they area of temperment/enerygy/drive than a 1st gsd owner would be equipt to deal with..... and if you are interested in that challenge, I would suggest a lot more research and planning before getting that type of dog.

aside from all that - I would look for and inquire about all of the normal things you'd bring up with any breeder.... if that's truly what they are, a breeder, then "free" shouldnt change that - hold them to the same high standard and expectations.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

one thing I'm curious about, where do the pups from the planned litters go?

also, my neighbors currently have pups on the ground now. if you're in the Bay Area, beware!!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I am not a fan of accidental litters. That being said, when I was a little girl a friend of my mom had an accidental litter. It was a labby gsd mixture. We brought home a pup and it was a wonderful dog.

These pups will need homes but don't get one simply because you feel sorry for them. Visit the pups and watch their personalities. You want one that seems brave and curious and not frantic. If none of them have the temperament you want, pass them up.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

If I had a dollar for every time I heard a bad breeder claim the "K9 police dog" thing, I'd have sooooo many dollars.

And even if it is true... Would you really want those lines? Or a dog from someone who breeds her female that much? I have yet to hear of a good breeder who breeds a female twice a year, every year!

You know what your gut is saying. Listen to it.
You know the difference a good breeder makes. You said that yourself. A GSD is too powerful and intense to get a nerve bag, especially if it your first GSD.


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## JLynnR (Nov 30, 2015)

Interesting. I had no idea the whole "The sire is a K9 police dog" was a thing. I'm really not that ignorant of the GS breed, but I'm obviously ignorant of the GS breeder tactics...the shady ones, that is. I guess the goldie puppy mills suck you in with the cute factor while the GS mills get you with the bad a** factor. 

Fodder, I wondered the same thing-where do the planned puppies go? I also wondered how there could be an accidental litter. Surely the K9 dog doesn't live with the breeder 

Curry's breeder had the puppies health screened and certified. They gave us full pedigree trees on both the sire and the dam and a plethora of vet documents. We signed an agreement that we would NOT breed him and another agreement that stated we would bring him back to the breeder if we, for some reason, couldn't keep him. We had to meet with them twice and have them watch us interact with Curry before we could take him home. Seriously, it's easier to adopt children than a golden puppy. And given the golden puppy mill industry, it's understandable. I assume it's not much different with Germans.

I probably shouldn't go look at them on Tuesday because, well, they're puppies. And Lord knows I'll rationalize and justify anything once I see their cute little faces. 

Thank you, everyone. I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I 'd say go for it! Yeah it might be a "nerve bag" it might also be the best dog of your life??

We've got your back`


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, people claim that, and then give you a dog with no papers. For whatever reason the dog can't be papered. Like, they bought a dog on a limited registration and then bred it anyway. I mean, because really, it isn't hard to get AKC registration on a dog. I mean, you don't need titles, and you don't need health certifications, and you don't generally need DNA, and you don't need any adherence to any standard. You can get full registration papers even if the dog is a disqualifying color, doesn't have a testicle, has floppy ears, tried to bite the judge, has bitten 4 little kids already -- doesn't matter. AKC is a registry, and if the sire was AKC and had full registration and the dam is AKC and has full registration than the puppy can be fully registered.

So all you have to do is fork out enough money to buy a dog and a bitch with AKC papers -- $400, $300 sometimes. 

If this was indeed a police k9, than the handler of the dog does not have breeding rights for the dog, so allowing his dog to breed with a bitch means puppies cannot be registered. But here is the kicker, they will usually not give you the officer's name because he can maybe get in trouble for this, right? Because it is highly unethical. 

So they aren't giving you the name so he won't get in trouble, but you can't check out the fairy tale either. Right? So the neighbor's weenie, flop-eared, dominant disaster of a GSD is actually papa and no one is the wiser. 

So any yayhoo out there who is breeding dogs they do not have the breeding rights to, or breeding dogs that they have stolen, not paid for, bought on a spay/neuter contract, or is cheating the stud owner out of stud fee, uses the Pop-is-a-k9 routine to home the puppies, and usually make a few bucks on top of it.

The problem with this whole scenario is the free puppy thing. Free puppies are in grave danger. Free puppies that are capable of becoming k9s are even more at risk. Slip-shod breeding with dogs with high drive and high energy will likely make for puppies that might be really hard on the owners that are likely to go for free puppies. 

Ah well, the pups do need homes. If you aren't paying them, it is really no incentive to do it again. So, if you think you can handle a GSD that might be on the high side of energy requirements, maybe you can prevent one of the pups from being badly homed. 

Good luck.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Well, technically, if you do get the pup, even if they are BAck yard breeders, you aren't supporting them because you are not "paying them". 
The pup could end up having tons of medical issues costing thousands. Hip dysplasia, bad elbows, EPI.. The whole 9. 

Or it could have a bad temperament and you spend hundreds to thousands
On trainers and behaviorists. 

Or it could be the healthiest and best dog you've had with proper training and socializing. 

I've got one dog from a "reputable" breeder
And one dog from a Backyard breeder. 
My $250 dog has temperament issues and Hip displasia 
My $1100 dog has congenital megaesophagus. But he's super friendly and temperamentally stable. 

Bottom line, puppies are a crap shoot. Sure, you can pay a lot of money and "stack the odds" in your favor if it helps you sleep better at night.. 
In the end, you get what you get and you deal with it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I have both GSDs and goldens. To date I paid the most for the youngest golden and his medical bills by the time he was two were $10000.00. My female GSD was cheap and she just had an FHO for hip Dysplasia, but costs are way less then the golden still. All have great temperaments and I'd take that over medical(if it's manageable or fixable) anyday. I'm in the puppies are crap shoot category. You get them, love them and take care of them no matter where they come from. It's a personal choice.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

best case scenario, the story is true and the dogs are healthy, aside from ethics and price tags - I think the question you should be asking is if you're ready for a dog that is likely to have the drives for police work.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

If you can love this pup, without knowing it's exact pedigree, or that it may not even be purebred, and are willing to step up to provide whatever it may need, I say, "Go for it!"

As kids, all our dogs came from some neighbor's/relative's unspayed bitches. They were all free. Some of the best dogs I have ever had. My current two were shelter pups. I still don't know if my shepherd is PB GSD or not. And I really don't care. No regrets.


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## JLynnR (Nov 30, 2015)

I am ready for a dog with a high drive. My third and last son went to college this fall (20 years of homeschooling finally over!), my husband is gone A LOT, and I just closed up my estate sale business. I've always wanted a service dog to take into assisted living centers/nursing homes and children's hospitals. I've finally got the time to really focus on seriously training a GS (and myself!). 

I appreciate the "puppies are a crapshoot" reality check. It really is true no matter what you pay.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

If you do decide to get a pup, are you ok if it's temperament is not suitable for service or therapy work?


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## JLynnR (Nov 30, 2015)

Nigel, yes, I'd be fine with that. Being able to do therapy work would be awesome, but first and foremost, high strung or lethargic, I want a good companion dog. But I'll have the pup in classes from the get-go.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JLynnR said:


> I am ready for a dog with a high drive. My third and last son went to college this fall (20 years of homeschooling finally over!), my husband is gone A LOT, and I just closed up my estate sale business. *I've always wanted a service dog to take into assisted living centers/nursing homes and children's hospitals. *I've finally got the time to really focus on seriously training a GS (and myself!).
> 
> I appreciate the "puppies are a crapshoot" reality check. It really is true no matter what you pay.


What makes you think that lines bred for police work would make good candidates for what you are looking to do with them?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

How did you find out about the pups? And did they ask for information from you about what kind of home you'd provide? 

I agree with asking about health verifications on the parents. But if they legitimately have an oops litter then you might recommend they place them through a reputable rescue. The pups will find much better homes that way. If they are giving them away to anyone, who knows what types of situations they will end up in? 

Rescue might be a great option for you too. I have rescued all of my dogs and my current dog is a belgian malinois who is widely considered to the best dog ever...or pretty close anyway.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I think, if you have a specific purpose as you mentioned for a GSD, then you have to be more selective.

I would not consider a "police dog" breeding a natural plus for a dog that will be expected to do the service work you are considering. For the same reason, law enforcement selects for a different type of temperament and would not choose a dog that would be best suited for visiting seniors and children in hospitals and nursing homes.

As with the Goldens (who some vets call the cancer retrievers) GSD's can have their health issues. It can get very expensive. Whatever your decision, please consider pet insurance as part of the cost of maintenance for your new pup. Good luck!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

My GSD's grandfather came from a LE breeding program. While the grandfather himself was not a police dog (siblings were as were both his parents), I got more dog than I expected. If the sire really is a police dog, I would think twice about getting a puppy if you have not had a GSD before.


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Hi, welcome to the board. My GSD, Ranger, is my first and I got him from the Seeing Eye breeding program, so he was breed to be sociable. I joke that he is a lab in a GSD body. Even so many people are terrified of him just because he is a GSD. All my previous dogs were Australian Shepherds or border collies so I was really taken aback by the reaction many people have to a GSD. I think if you want protection it may be the best of both worlds to get a GSD that is breed to be sweet and calm. Then you won't have to worry as much about his temperament and you will still have the protection of a dog that just scares people. You can still do a lot of training with him and have him as a service dog. I would suspect that a well trained calm self assured GSD would make anyone with bad intentions think twice. I also put an "I love my GSD" bumper sticker on my car and a fire fighter alert sticker in the window that I have a GSD. I figure the advertisement may scare off the nare-do-wells as well.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> What makes you think that lines bred for police work would make good candidates for what you are looking to do with them?


This is probably the best question on this thread.

If you are looking for a quiet therapy dog, then a dog that comes from lines used in police work would be my very last choice. These dogs, if they really are K9's, are sharper and have a higher civil side. They are more suspicious of their surroundings. They are going to be more aloof. These are not dogs that I would put in a nursing home where the elderly walk funny and smell funny (from medicines) and act funny and where people want to love on them. That's just a disaster in the making.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

JLynnR said:


> I appreciate the "puppies are a crapshoot" reality check. It really is true no matter what you pay.


The dice are loaded with a known good breeding. 

Only way I would even begin to consider is with a pedigree of both parents and if this is a repeat breeding (even though it is an oops) info on what the pair has already produced as that may help predict the outcome.

Yes a working line GSD bred for police service work is more like apples and firecrackers than apples and oranges. Depends on the dog but you may be in for a lot more than you can imagine. Look at some of the puppy posts here. Of course it really depends on the dogs.

Land shark, alligator, etc.


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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

Keep in mind too that a poorly bred golden will likely have health problems but still be a sweetie. Nervousness in a golden more likely leads to submissiveness and reactive flight response. A poorly bred GSD has a much greater potential (compared to the golden in this example) to have behavioral problems that can include fear aggression. Just saying that there is a higher risk here than you may be thinking.


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

DutchKarin said:


> Keep in mind too that a poorly bred golden will likely have health problems but still be a sweetie. Nervousness in a golden more likely leads to submissiveness and reactive flight response. A poorly bred GSD has a much greater potential (compared to the golden in this example) to have behavioral problems that can include fear aggression. Just saying that there is a higher risk here than you may be thinking.


That is exactly what I was trying to say. I think it is very important that the temperament of a GSD is stable. People are very scared of GSDs and I would suspect that an unstable GSD would be more likely to respond negatively to that fear. It could be a vicious cycle. Since GSDs scare people you need to be confident that you trust your GSD's temperament. Even if you are comfortable with a potentially aggressive dog you ought to carefully think through what that may mean - crating him whenever anyone comes over, not walking him in public etc...

Obviously this is just my opinion but I thought I would put it out there.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

DutchKarin said:


> Keep in mind too that a poorly bred golden will likely have health problems but still be a sweetie. Nervousness in a golden more likely leads to submissiveness and reactive flight response. A poorly bred GSD has a much greater potential (compared to the golden in this example) to have behavioral problems that can include fear aggression. Just saying that there is a higher risk here than you may be thinking.


Well said!


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

Honestly I'd avoid - there's never anything as a "free" anything and that would alone be enough to ring my alarm bells. 

Plus the fairy tale story they are spinning. 

YES puppies are a crapshoot. But you still put on a seatbelt when you get in a car right?

I'd skip the free puppy - don't even go see it because all it's all too easy to say yes when confronted with a cute puppy (and all puppies are cute!!) and feel good for taking in a "free" puppy.

Honestly I'd wait and do my homework. Go to a good, responsible breeder or get a dog from a good rescue.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't see why this particular police-dog sire story wouldn't be true. They aren't making any money off it. Ask for a pedigree, check that the sire is on the K9 squad, even talk with the handler to confirm. I have a female out of KNPV PH-1 titled sire, which is fairly similar, in many cases the same as a police K9. In my experience, females of these lines tend to have the sociability and discernment to be therapy dogs if that is how you raise them- mine could and has visited schools for demos. I trust her completely in a room full of kids and with my little nieces and nephews. 

But you need to know your dog, really well. You also need to be prepared for a certain level of reactivity, suspicion, "civil", high energy, and lots of mouth obsession- tugging and using the mouth is going to be a real rewarding activity. 

Be prepared for a dog that needs true leadership and corrections- positive only probably not a good option. Unlike with many goldens, I'd imagine. That means you need to know what you are doing or the dog could be a liability, not an asset. 

I've found that dogs that are true nerve-bags show this as very young pups. If the pup comes running to you and starts tugging on your pant leg, can be handled without a huge fuss, and will at least chase, if not fetch a ball, you should be fine. Be prepared for the most challenging and demanding dog of your life, but the "free" part of this doesn't bother me. 

This is a blanket statement, but if you get a male, don't expect a therapy dog. Personally, for many reasons I prefer in general a female- even K9 handlers have told me females are better for personal-protection, while males will travel further from the handler and thus make better K9s in general.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My male would be a great therapy dog. He loves everyone. My female could care less about strangers.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can't tell if a dog will be a good therapy dog based on gender. That is a myth. I've had much sweeter male GSDs with people than female. 

I would get a list of questions to ask and then visit. They could be the worst dogs ever, but they could also be fine. Look carefully at the mother. How sociable is she? If you can judge for yourself, visit a few times before committing and then make a good decision. Be prepared to say no, no matter how cute they are, if anything doesn't seem right. Use your instincts.

I was once advised never to get a dog that screeched or fussed when removed from littermates because the dog would be unstable. We ended up getting a puppy that cried all the way home, and yet turned out to be the most stable dog we've ever owned. Advice is just that. Use what makes sense but rely on your own common sense.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JLynnR said:


> I know they are like apples and oranges, I'm not worried about that.


Generalizing, *and especially if you are talking about police K9 line*s, you are talking about two different types of breeds that are almost diametrically opposed in temperament and expected behavior. You can enhance or suppress the genetics, but you will not train or socialize them out of the dog. What makes you think that a dog like this would be a good fit for your family which in the past has been happy with Golden Retrievers? What makes you think there won't be a personality clash? It happens.




JLynnR said:


> We're big into our dogs. Lots of time, lots of patience, and lots of obedience training, etc. I have researched, petted, investigated, and hung out with Germans in my quest to see if I really want one. I do.


But have you really researched, petted, investigated and hung out with police K9 lines? They are different from your every day German Shepherd.



JLynnR said:


> I want a dog who will bond closely and be protective.


This is what you can most likely expect to get from these pups.



JLynnR said:


> I am ready for a dog with a high drive.
> 
> I've always wanted a service dog to take into assisted living centers/nursing homes and children's hospitals.


I would be curious of your definition of high drive.

Due to the likelihood of these pups bonding closely and being protective, expecting them to appreciate a stranger's attention and to not be leery of canes, walkers, loud or odd noises, strange smells, people falling over them, stepping on them, (or these things being around you), could result in a direct conflict of what the dog has been bred for, as was already pointed out. Yes, you can train, socialize, etc., a dog to behave in certain ways, but IMO, it would push the dog into submitting to something that is just not in its nature and would be very stressful for a pup like this to be subjected.


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## justine.diaz (Nov 14, 2015)

As long as you are okay with the potential problems go for it. My girl was a rescue from animal control and free. She was best free thing ever. But her hips were costly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

You know...I think I'd be tempted to call up the K9 commander of the town police force and ask if he knows the sire of this litter, and what the story is. He may say it's all bunk and not from his department. Or he might tell you what really happened.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

If you do go take a look at them bring someone along who is indifferent about the whole thing. They may help keep you from getting sucked into the cute puppy bit.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

While the idea of confirming the sire is nice, I think from their original post that the people couldn't disclose the sire as part of the agreement with the PD. Although the story seems like a, well, story, as Selzer said, pups need homes.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

After reading more of what you have to say, it is very obvious that it would be in your best interest to do a lot more research into the breed. 

Most pet owners would not be a good fit for a high drive German Shepherd.

You say you want one, but do you really know what it is that you want?

I would definitely pass on this litter, and I would start visiting clubs and getting to know some German Shepherds so that you understand what the options are and what would be the best fit for your family.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Ahhh..new to the forum and GSDs. 

Welcome to German Shepherds, as I like to call them, the most complicated breed in the world.   Lines and sublines, drives, nerves, temperament and health, so much to sort out for sure.

My suggestion would be for you to prioritize what you want to do with your dog first.

As a newbie to the breed wanting a good companion dog? Then I suggest a nice showline (American or West German).

Therapy, *probably* better off with the showlines.

Bite sport or protection then you're adding another layer of complexity to the mix as the demands on the dog and it's health and temperament increase. Depending on how far you want to take the protection (just alerting or actual protection training/bite sports what have you) then, you want to start learning about Wls and definitely visit IPO clubs if you can to see the dogs and learn first hand about them.

It sounds like you want to actually train and do things with your dog which is great! The trick is stacking the odds in your favor of finding the right pup for you and your family.

After you prioritize the next best step I have found is find a breeder that consistently produces the type of dog you are looking for.

At the end of the day, those of us who are not breeders and who haven't been showing or competing for many years must rely on the breeder to help select the best pup for us. 

The minimum requirements should be the breeder tests and certifies hips/elbows through the OFA (if in the U.S.). The breeder is actively competing and showing their dogs (even if you don't want to show this is the best way to avoid back yard breeders). The breeder has dogs from their program performing the tasks/sports/role you wish for your pup.

Also, be prepared to spend between $1500 - $2500 for the pup. Back yard breeders will be less but it increases the risk that you will end up with health or temperament problems. So the extra cost is a bit of insurance (not guarantee) to stack the odds in favor of a healthy pup that can be with you for many years to come.

I hope this helps and best wishes on the search for your new pup!! 

_*probably* because I know someone will come along and tell me about their wonderful WL therapy dog, but for a newbie to the breed if therapy is the main goal, *probably* easier to achieve that goal sooner with a mellower SL._ 




JLynnR said:


> Nigel, yes, I'd be fine with that. Being able to do therapy work would be awesome, but first and foremost, high strung or lethargic, *I want a good companion dog*. But I'll have the pup in classes from the get-go.


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## JLynnR (Nov 30, 2015)

We went and saw the pups today. The story checks out. The sire is the K9 for the police force. Talked to one of the policemen, not the the 'breeder'. The dog was imported by the police department from Czech 8 years ago. The sire lives with the handler's family. When I asked if that was typical, he said no, not for larger police forces with bigger, more specialized K9 units, but that the dog, Indy, was mainly used for tracking and detecting narcotics. This is a small town right off a highway that's a major drug-trafficking corridor. 

The family has a female, pure black, GS. They have kept the two separated in different kennels but when she went in heat this last time, Indy found a way...(at that they all just laughed and raised their eyebrows).

Indy is technically the property of the police department and because of that, the family cannot make a profit off of any of his puppies. Translation: they can't monetize Indy. Hence why they are free.

In the family's defense of their "story", which I, myself started to suspect was sketchy, my husband reminded me that they never used the K9 info as any kind of a trick to get people to take their dogs. Which is true. They have never claimed that they are breeding a certain type of super GSD. They just had a litter by mistake and are looking for good homes for these puppies. And they have turned several people away. Two of the pups are going to cops. Also, I was corrected; this is the dam's first litter. They aren't breeders, by their own admission.

Needless to say, knowing what I've been able to research about working line GS and those from Czech, and what I saw in Indy, I know those pups would not be therapy dog material. My husband and I got to hang out with Indy for a while, and I got a taste of a GSD I hadn't really seen before. Indy just looks like he's thinking and surveying, sizing up, and calculating. It's impressive. My husband, former military, pretty much decided right there that he liked what he saw.

We did pick out a pup, but he obviously won't be a therapy dog. Maybe some day down the road we'll pursue that with a different dog. Who knows. We'll be going back down and get our fur ball on the 12th after he's had his shots and last worming. 

I appreciate everyone's help and insight. It really did help us to better know what to ask and what to look for. We might not be getting the equivalent of a $1800-$2500 GSD with an impressive pedigree, but, like someone on the board said, they DO need good homes. And my husband and I feel that, though we're new to the GS world, we are ready for the plunge!

Thanks again, and I'm sure my questions have only just begun!


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Don't rule out the therapy job for him. I have a Czech male rescue that we got when he was 2. He helps me immensely with my sister who has multiple health issues, and he actually saved her from falling through a window a few months ago. He alerts me in the middle of the night if she needs help and I don't hear her, among other things. He's invaluable. This is his job, one he took on all on his own. 

He is also high drive and needs lots of outlet for that, lots of hard exercise and play every day. We have a 1/2 acre fenced yard, thank God!

And, not all dogs from working lines are extreme high drive, some are more mellow. So you don't really know, but I am sure you're going to have a great dog!

Susan


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The dam is more than half of the picture. She not only offers her genetic material, she offers the developmental environment of the womb and raises the puppies and that has a lot to do with it. If you could get pedigrees (not official just lineage) it may help as quite a few on the board know Czech lines. ..... 

Well I imagine we will see a lot of you when you bring the little tyke home. Start really scouring the puppy forum. GSDs are typically extremely easy to housebreak but are typically little alligators....that "Eeeeeeek" that works for softer breeds is usually only an invite to "bring it on".......Also don't be afraid to play tug........lots of good resources to go into.......And, photos are mandatory.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Congratulations, Good to hear you are "flexible" and willing work with the pup regardless temperament (re-therapy work), you never know, it may still be possible. Did you get a chance to interact with the dam? How did you go about selecting a pup?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If they owned the bitch at the time of the mating, they ARE breeders. Just sayin'. 

There are good breeders and there are bad breeders and there are mediocre breeders and there are breeders who haven't got a clue what they are doing. There are high volume breeders, there are first-time breeders, there are breeders who breed 1-3 litters per year, there are breeders who have a litter once in several years. There are breeders who breed for show, there are breeders who breed for work, there are breeders who breed for sport, there are breeders who breed for pets. There are breeders who breed imports, breeders who breed AKC dogs, breeders who breed to SV standards, breeders who breed non-papered dogs, breeders who breed mongrels, and breeders who cross one breed with another. 

All the qualifications a breeder MUST have is to own a bitch at the time the bitch is mated, unless the dog was in the care of a trusted individual that failed in his trust (which has happened).

One does not have to profit on the puppies to be a breeder, otherwise most of the best breeders would not be classified as breeders. One does not have to sell puppies to be a breeder -- notice that that is a separate line item than profit. One can call themselves a rescue, but if they owned a bitch at the time the bitch became pregnant, they are a breeder. 

Lots of people breed not for money, but for puppies. They want puppies. They want their children to experience puppies being born and raised. They love baby GSDs and they want a bunch of them. They think their dog is the cat's meow and want one of his/her progeny.

Not all police officers follow rules or laws, or are 100% honest in all situations; or do they know more than the average Joe about the breed, and that includes k9 handlers. They may know more about training and handling a working dog, but that does not make them an expert at bloodlines, pedigrees, faults, temperament, genetic issues, whelping and raising puppies. 

These people are BYBs. Pretty much anyone who produces a pure-bred oops litter is a BYB. They are producing dogs without papers and giving them to their buddies and probably keeping one or more for themselves, and finding the rest of them homes. They are indeed using a public resource for private gain, even if no money changes hands. It's unethical. 

The puppies do need homes though. Just don't paint the dude as great guy. 

BTW, it isn't hard to keep dogs and bitches apart, even when she is in heat. My guess is they had three people facilitating their little accident, or they accidently on purpose put him into her kennel. In most oopses, there is nothing accidental about it.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Ok, then, good luck.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I also have a working line rescue that is a therapy dog and high drive, so you never know. No matter what these people are they seem to be trying to do right by the pups. They are being selective and they are giving shots/deworming which is an expense they are covering. As someone else said pictures are mandatory


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## Rangers_mom (May 16, 2013)

Enjoy your new pup! How exciting. Can't wait to see pictures.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

First congrats on the new little land shark. Enjoy! 

Second, next important step (this from someone who learned the hard way) find a good trainer who is familiar with German Shepherds, especially working lines. I went through the mill with poodle-doodle trainers who had zero experience with German Shepherds let alone a Czech working line shepherd.

As an aside, the price range I mentioned was for dogs from experienced breeders who health test, title and compete with their dogs in show, sport/work venues. So an 'oops' litter from people who don't breed means *if* they could sell the pups (I know they can't, so this is just informational) these pups are *not *in the same price range, ethically speaking.




JLynnR said:


> <snipped>
> 
> Needless to say, knowing what I've been able to research about working line GS and those from Czech, and what I saw in Indy, I know those pups would not be therapy dog material. My husband and I got to hang out with Indy for a while, and I got a taste of a GSD I hadn't really seen before. Indy just looks like he's thinking and surveying, sizing up, and calculating. It's impressive. My husband, former military, pretty much decided right there that he liked what he saw.
> 
> ...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Congrats on doing more homework and thanks for updating us. And congrats on the pup! Enjoy your time with him/her.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would add that many comments you have may be now more applicable to those who are thinking of getting a puppy since your decision has been made and it is time to move forward and this is a good helpful place. 

The next statement is not so much for the OP but more for others thinking about a similar decision.

I will agree that many police and dogs folks I have met know very little about the genetics of breeding and which combinations are known to be likely to produce which outcomes but pretty much go mix and match thinking that the dogs can just complement each other and it will all work out. Well, I had one of those who did not get qualities between the members of the breeding pair but got some pretty bad extremes both physically and temperamentally.......It is definitely a crapshoot when you just throw two together hoping for the best. Couple that with the fact that many (I would say probably most) actual working dogs are not purchased by departments as puppies but young adults who have already been "weeded through" to get the ones that are suitable...so even if the genetics is not so hot, the individual dog may be great. Who an individual dog is is part of the picture but so is that darned pedigree saying who is behind that dog....Just a reflection....I am actually looking at taking on a free young adult as a working prospect and am still going through evaluation process but in that case, WYSIWYG so genetics are less of a concern for me which is what triggered the comment.


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