# Well, she bit me.



## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Took my fear aggressive dog for a walk this morning. She barks pretty regularly now at people and dogs who get too close when she's on leash (and sometimes when she's off leash). We were walking home and she had to pass pretty close to a guy and his two leashed boxers, and of course she barked and lunged at them, and as soon as we were past she nipped the back of my leg. 

It didn't really hurt, just a pinch, but yeah....definitely not good. I admit I smacked her after that, I was so mad. And I guess that's just displaced aggression, she probably didn't mean the bite me but felt like she needed to bite something. But after that, I guess she could tell I was pretty pissed off, and then she kept snapping at my hands the whole way home and after we got home. Out of....insecurity? Frustration? Excitement? I have no idea. 

Had to take her to the vet right after that to get her spay sutures taken out. I told the vets what she'd done and they muzzled her to remove the sutures, which was fine, she didn't show any aggression at all toward them even before they put the muzzle on. 

I'm in a pretty bad place right now. I'm still mad at her and feel like I can't trust her anymore. She's lying on her bed right now, she whined a bit when we got home but I can't even look at her, so she just lay down and is sleeping now (she's had a stressful day I guess). I'm ordering a basket muzzle and prong collar from chewy and I'm preparing to accept that that's just how we're going to have to go for walks now. I have no doubt that she will bite the next person who gets too close, at least while we're on walks. Or she'll bite me again. 

I know it's not good that I'm still mad at her, that I can't bring myself to forgive her right now. She's still pretty new to me and I know I need to give her more time, but....I just can't help it. I can't trust her. It sucks because she's sooooo affectionate at home, she's such a good dog and so loving, but I'm so frustrated and I don't know what to do to help her.

I admit I'm even considering whether or not to rehome her to someone who can handle her better. I'm sure that feeling will pass...maybe. Again I'm just not in a good place.

I don't know what I did to her to make her this way. She didn't do this stuff when I first got her. She was scared of stuff, sure, but she didn't bark or lunge at them until about 2 weeks after I got her--she'd just look at them and then look at me, and I'd ignore, and she'd ignore. Now...I feel like I must've done something to encourage this.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

How long have you had her? Are you working with a trainer? Did she break skin?

Aside from needing to know that..you mentioned off lead. I would not have her off lead at all unless secure in/on your own property.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

For now, get a good pillow to scream your anger out in. She is just a dog with some issues that need to be addressed. Why did you have to get too close to the boxers. There was no other way to wait until they passed or no room to turn around in? Get a good trainer to the house.
Lashing out to her is re-directed aggression on your part as well ironically but understandable. Let things calm down to get on one page with her again. Maybe she is still in pain from surgery. GSDs are very sensitive emotionally so her day is just as bad.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

I'm so sorry. It has to be incredibly difficult when your trust is betrayed like that.

I am going to side with the others' advice from your previous thread and say slow down. I know she needs exercise but you should probably stop walking her unless it is an empty trail or something similar. Spend time at home with her, building your bond and building her feeling of security. It really hasn't been that long since you've had her and she's been through a lot. 

This sounds like fear a based reaction to me, either situational or temperament, we don't know yet. Give yourself and her low stress, low exposure time to find out which it is. If she seems stressed, remove her from the situation. Be very protective of her state of mind for at least a week. 

Those are my thoughts. Others will have great advice too.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> For now, get a good pillow to scream your anger out in. She is just a dog with some issues that need to be addressed. Why did you have to get too close to the boxers. There was no other way to wait until they passed or no room to turn around in? Get a good trainer to the house.
> Lashing out to her is re-directed aggression on your part as well ironically but understandable. Let things calm down to get on one page with her again. Maybe she is still in pain from surgery. GSDs are very sensitive emotionally so her day is just as bad.


It was a narrow part of the trail. I could have moved her off trail and waited for them to pass, but she still probably would have barked and lunged at them. It was a guy and two dogs she has met multiple times on the trail--in fact she played with them yesterday--so I'm guessing part of this was excitement, wanting to play with the dogs and me not letting her. (She did bark at the guy yesterday.)



CometDog said:


> How long have you had her? Are you working with a trainer? Did she break skin?
> 
> Aside from needing to know that..you mentioned off lead. I would not have her off lead at all unless secure in/on your own property.


She did not break skin. It was through my jeans. 
I've had her for less than 2 months. I worked with a trainer for two sessions about 2 weeks after I got her because I was worried about her beginning to show signs of fear aggression. The trainer was a positive-only trainer and told me to try to redirect her with treats, which works pretty well for dogs barking at her behind fences (she barks and lunges at them too) but so far hasn't really done much for dogs/people we meet on walks. I contacted a different trainer and I was thinking of trying to get her into some group obedience classes, but they won't start until December. 

As for being off-leash; she has good recall and I let her off leash only when I can see that there aren't people around (these are city parks along the river, and this time of year they aren't used much). As soon as I see someone coming I call her back to me and put the leash back on her. I kinda depend on her being able to run around, to tire her out. So far off leash she has barked at people but more often just runs away.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

The dog is new to you. There has not been enough time to build a trusting foundation. She is probably still in some pain. You have her leashed which limits her options to act. You did not protect her from a stranger and two Boxers when she was feeling compromised. She redirected to you and then she kept trying to communicate with you by mouthing. I think she doesn't trust you to keep her safe.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

An experienced trainer familiar with GSDs and a few private lessons would be ideal.There are some excellent books and videos that can give you insight and help.Karen Pryor LAT(look at that) and Patricia McConnell are both very good.It is frustrating and depressing when these issues happen.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The dog is new to you. There has not been enough time to build a trusting foundation. She is probably still in some pain. You have her leashed which limits her options to act. You did not protect her from a stranger and two Boxers when she was feeling compromised. She redirected to you and then she kept trying to communicate with you by mouthing. I think she doesn't trust you to keep her safe.


So what should I have done? Not walked her at all?


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

dogma13 said:


> An experienced trainer familiar with GSDs and a few private lessons would be ideal.There are some excellent books and videos that can give you insight and help.Karen Pryor LAT(look at that) and Patricia McConnell are both very good.It is frustrating and depressing when these issues happen.


Yeah that's what the original trainer recommended. We've been working on it. 

It's just hard, when people like the one who blamed me for not making her feel safe make those accusations, and I'm like....well should I just not walk her at all then? Walk at midnight when we won't run into anyone else? I feel like walking is and will be part of our routine for as long as we're together, and I'm trying to make things as normal as possible, not put her under too much pressure...but even that isn't right, I guess.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

banzai555 said:


> So what should I have done? Not walked her at all?


I am not sure how you got that out of my post. If anything, I am one of the biggest advocates on this forum for exercising a dog and allowing for ample off leash opportunity. 

Like others have already said, slow down, let this dog grieve for her past home and loved ones, let her get used to you and your routine, do fun things that she enjoys doing / build a bond, keep her safe from things that stress her out especially after being in heat and then being spayed, what a hormonal mess right now!

You are thinking about getting rid of her, harboring a grudge, she senses this, she has nobody but you right now. You want to muzzle her and add to her anxiety instead of keeping her away from things she fears until you can get her reactivity under control. You want to prong her for being afraid, that won't take her fear away and will add to her mistrust of you. 

Be your dog's best friend, advocate for her, keep her under her threshold. These things take time. Slow down.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Hi again, fear aggression really needs to be dealt with at an early age. Get engaged with a trainer as soon as possible. Again, slow down, it is easy to keep at it looking for instant gratification or confirmation that she is fine or fixed. I have to stop myself all the time from putting my dog into the same negative situation to see if he has improved. It become more about the owner than the dog. Just chill. Another thing that caught my attention was getting home and her lying on your bed and you upset with her - get that dog in the crate!


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> I feel like walking is and will be part of our routine for as long as we're together, and I'm trying to make things as normal as possible, not put her under too much pressure...but even that isn't right, I guess.


I understand that frustration. But listen to your instincts too. Would you feel comfortable repeating the same walk tomorrow and not getting bit? Remember that she will feel any anxiety down the leash and may react to that as well as her own fear.

I have a pup at home right now and we are introducing him to walks in a super low stress environment. I don't know your situation and location but you might try our technique. My neighborhood always has kids out playing and neighbors fiddling in their garden. That is high stress and distracting for him. Its also a situation that is hard to control for me. So I take my little dude to one of those super big fancy house neighborhoods where everyone seems to stay in their homes. There isn't much traffic so we can put him on a long lead and explore at his pace. It was a beautiful day yesterday and we didn't run across any walking dogs and only saw one person fiddling in their garage and they ignored him. If he sees something a little scary, he can stop and stare and that weird thing that caught his attention doesn't come towards him like those boxers did. It's super low stress and low exposure. So my little dude feels like we've got this and I know how to keep him at a good level for his comfort. Our bond builds while exercising together.

Something like that might be better than walking on trails that you know other dogs share. I would take a few steps back in the socialization department.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> MineAreWorkingline said:
> 
> 
> > The dog is new to you. There has not been enough time to build a trusting foundation. She is probably still in some pain. You have her leashed which limits her options to act. You did not protect her from a stranger and two Boxers when she was feeling compromised. She redirected to you and then she kept trying to communicate with you by mouthing. I think she doesn't trust you to keep her safe.
> ...


Yep! Until you and her have a good grasp on what to expect from each other, I personally would nix the walks for now. There are great things you can do for her in your home and yard that will not only get her mentally stimulated and satisfied, but also exercise her at lower levels (she is still recovering). Do scent work indoors. Me and my 4 LOVE it. Take some empty water bottles, poke holes in it, and put something smelly in it (sardines are a fav around here) and hide the throughout the house. Let her watch you do it from her crate the first couple times. When she finds one, super praise and give her the sardine as a treat. Do this with each she finds. You can slowly phase out giving her the treat ever time she finds it. Or you could order a scent kit online. Since we do it just for fun, water bottles and stinky fish work just fine for us. Get some puzzle feeders for her meals. She has to use brain power to figure out how to get the kibble out. They have ones for treats as well to keep her brain working. You can play hide and seek. Hide in a room with a muffled voice, and call out to her. Praise and reward with a treat or favorite toy when she responds. 

You can hide treats and kibble in the yard and have her find it there also. Dogs live for this kind of stuff! Play with rugs and balls and anything else that gets her attention in the yard. My rescue had never seen a toy, never played with one, and didn’t care to, so we would play chase in the backyard and run laps around each other until we had a great bond and were able to then up the training to start training outdoors, with and without distractions. Tennis courts were you can lock the gate, outside and far back from a dog park or child park, while you run her through her commands. A dog does not have to be walked to get mental and physical stimulation that satisfies them. 

The most common thing I see amount your threads is that you have high expectations, and I understand that, and she will get there eventually, but not if you keep putting her in high stress situations before trust and a bond has formed.

Like I’ve said in the past, when I got my GSD at 4yrs of age, she was a nightmare. A nip on my pants leg? Ha. She literally shredded both of my arms with her mouth and paws. She was highly fear aggressive, and she would redirect to me when she was uncomfortable. It took time, a lot of time, to get her settled in, build trust, and find ways to stimulate her without having the stress and anxiety of taking her out to public places. We can now, but this was a year of one on one training before I was confident enough that I could walk her past any dog or person without a reaction from her. 

You need to focus more on what is best for her at this point, and not what is best for you, or you’ll never be able to bring her around to a lovely dog that has bonded and trusts in you completely.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Fear aggression is one of the most frustrating and difficult things dog owners need to deal with.
In my experience, it can’t be trained out, only managed. 
This is who this dog is, and very well might be the reason the previous owners gave her up. 
No reason to be mad at her. Dogs don't “do things to us.” They just do things, and the things they do are always what is good for them. She saw dogs, felt threatened, and went into defensive mode. And, yeah, because she was all wound up, she redirected on you, because your leg happened to be handy. 
It’s time to ask yourself tough questions. Are you prepared to manage a fear aggressive dog, for many years to come?
If so, it’s time to do a lot of research on how to do it. This forum has a lot of info on this, and what it takes to own a dog like this.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The best advice I can give for the immediate is do not use a prong collar for this. It will amp her up MORE not less. A prong is going to lead to more redirection. Use a "dominant dog" or slip-lead, if you need control. Even use a cheap-o plastic slip lead you can find in any vet office- I like the plastic round kind because they release easily. 

For the time being- take her to seldom used trails. If she has a reliable recall, let her off leash where you can see people coming, then call her in, leash her, and go far enough off trail so she stays "below threshold" (doesn't react). Teach a sit-stay. 

Reward for good passes! Treat, tug, "good girl!".

Teach an "auto recall"- when your dog sees someone, always, always call her in, have her sit in a heel position, watch your face, and stay. Always. Soon she'll start doing this without you telling her- this will be her safe space, her safe position. Practice this with a long line or leash on busier trails. Remember to start by taking her far enough off trail so she doesn't react. 

Teach her the sit and watch me commands away from any busy-ness- start with no distractions, and work your way up. 

Teach her what yes and no means. 

Find a so-called "balanced trainer" who you trust. Work with him or her. This isn't the time for all positive treat and click stuff. You are thinking about giving her up- you need something that will work and allow you to be successful. 

As for being mad at her- here's a good quote on dogs "The dog never makes a mistake. He is just a dog and he does what he does because he is a dog and thinks like a dog. It is you that makes the mistake because you haven't trained him to do what you want him to do when you want him to do it." 

Something to always keep in mind when working with any dog in any venue. 

To add, if you are truly afraid of her now, it will be best to rehome her responsibly.


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## NaughtyNibbler (Oct 28, 2018)

Banzai555:
Everyone is trying to be helpful. Hitting a dog is never productive, especially since you indicate that it didn't really hurt. Staying angry, beyond a momentary reaction, is not productive. Your dog can sense that & it will make things worse. I've never stayed mad or held a grudge with an animal before. I've had plenty of wounds & bruises to nurse, because of my dog's hyperactive play, but I look at myself to improve the way I do things.

Guess if I just had my female organs cut out, I'd be a bit grouchy and sensitive. 

My dog is 15 months now. I've learned to make it a habit to put my dog in a sit/stay & let other dogs/owners pass in close quarters (whether we have met before or not). While on leash & walking in a park, I've had my dog be friendly with one dog we passed and then react negatively, when we encountered the same dog in another part of the park. Something was different the 2nd time.

I've found that it serves me well to be proactive & look at every walk & every trip to the dog park as a possible problem. I can't assume that because things went well with a certain dog or person on one day, that things will be the same on another day. Sometimes, a reaction happens because of some past experience your dog had, that you might not we aware of.

There was a situation at the dog park yesterday. Another GSD owner brought his dog into the enclosure & ended up having to take his GSD immediately out. He said that his dog had recently had an encounter with another GSD & now has an issue with his dog being aggressive with any GSD he meets. Thankfully, he was closely monitoring his dog & took him out as soon as he started to negatively react to my dog. 

I think there is value in focusing on prevention.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I strongly suspect that this dog had issues long before she came to you. The angel dog that you had those first two weeks was a natural response to being displaced, alone and afraid. She had no one but you so she hung on to you with everything she had. 
The bite, and I use that term loosely, sounds more like a hurry up nip. Pretty common in herding dogs, used to hustle us along. Shadow nips at my butt if I am being slow, I can easily see your dog thinking that she really wanted out of that situation NOW! Of course she needs you to move quicker to accomplish that. 
A narrow spot on the trail, two large dogs and a man, she's not quite herself and you are hesitating. Look at that from her point of view. Not condoning the action, just giving you a different perspective.
As I have suggested before, you need to slow down. I think you have a great dog (under all the horse poop, there is a pony), I think you are a good choice to own her. Type A, control freak. She will need structure and routine, a drive to help her succeed and a soft hand. But for heavens sake, let her catch her freakin breath!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I had a fear aggressive rescued dog, so I didn’t know his past history. Once we were walking down our own street and a woman came up to say hello. I immediately got him out of her reach, behind a bush and she moved toward us and waved her hand in his face so he could sniff it. While I was warning her off, he barked and his tooth cut her hand. It was all her fault but I still paid the hospital bills and I didn’t argue or complain. After that, I only took him places where there was plenty of room to avoid strangers. It was often inconvenient and a few times we debated whether we wanted to keep him, but he was very gentle and mellow at home, so we did. We had to manage him the rest of his life.

Your dog hasn’t bitten anyone yet, so he doesn’t have a bite history. If you don’t think you are up for this, rehome him now. There is no reason someone should have to keep a dog they are not comfortable with or equipped to deal with. If you had him from a puppy, I would say keep him and work with him, but in my experience, fear based aggression reinforces itself. An owner needs to know how to stop it or it will escalate and get worse. It never goes away on its own.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Ok I'm going to preface that I did not read all the responses. I have a female (6.5 yrs old)that is a poorly bred byb dog that we've had since a puppy. She has terrible nerves. She is fear aggressive, leash reactive, noise fearful, hasn't met another female dog she likes, hates cats. She is also the biggest love bug at home. Do I trust her with others ...NOPE! Do I love her to death...absolutely! Is she a good dog...mostly. She needs management.
We spent a lot of money when she was young on a trainer. One on one training. He was great and helped us a lot to understand our girl and her limitations. The most important words he ever spoke to us and repeated many times over and I agree with wholly.

*"If your dog fails YOU failed your dog"*

He said this from a training standpoint. Never, ever set you dog up to fail because you will be failing your dog. 

I'm not judging you or saying this to be mean to you but you failed your dog. You said yourself you could have moved off the path. Why didn't you? You set her up to fail and she did...and now your angry with her....it was on you...sorry if that hurts your feelings. It's the truth. 

Am I saying you can't walk your dog...NO... I am not. Watch your dog, look at her reactions, be attentive to what she is seeing and how she is showing you her discomfort/fear. You need to respond appropriately because she can't. Not yet anyway. 

It took a long time. I still don't trust my dog in certain situations but I can and do let her run off leash in certain areas. I am in constant awareness of our surroundings. If I see another person and or dog within 50-60 yards I leash up my dog and head in the opposite direction if I can. If I can't change direction I still leash my dog and give any passers by a wide berth. I have many times been on walking trails where we stepped of into the woods to ensure both those passing and my dog are safe and behave appropriately. I never assume that just because one day an interaction with a strange or relatively strange dog went well that it will be a repeat performance the next time. 
We have good days and bad days on walks. Some days nothing phases her and all is good. Other days I know walking out the door she is going to be an arse the whole walk because she just can't help herself. It's always up to me to make sure she behaves appropriately and is corrected if she doesn't. 
So... have I made mistakes and let my dog fail? You bet I have! and still do some days when I'm off my game. I own it. I don't blame my dog I blame me. She can't help what she is genetically.
My point... your dog is always going to need to be managed and it's up to you to do so. It's really not that hard. See someone with another dog/s coming...move further away. Give them and your dog room. Learn your dogs language. Give her and you time to know each other before you (like those before) bail on her. Is she perfect...obviously not...but are you? Please step back, give the both of you time to learn about each other and don't force a perceived lifestyle on either of you. Give it time to find your own groove with each other and please look into a breed knowledgeable trainer to help you and your girl along the way.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. My Shelby is high content GSD. Got her as an 8 week old shelter pup. Shelby is a special cupcake. She likes her safe places, which are - her house, her yard, and her car. Shelby does not like to go for walks. She barks at people, constantly looks over her shoulder, and rushes to get back home. Fortunately, she is fearful, but not fear aggressive. 

Shelby is 5 years old now. You have not had your dog very long. You do not know each other very well. Really up the obedience. Not only will you tire your dog mentally, you will help to build the bond. Teach your dog to look to you. Seriously, I worked on having Shelby make eye contact with me. Use hand signs more and talk less. Stay home with your dog. I'm not sure being out and about on narrow trails, especially while she is recovering from surgery is the best idea.

If/when you must walk, her attention should be on you. Avoid other people/dogs, as much as possible. Cross the street, walk the other way, whatever it takes. Do you have any yard at all? Shelby gets exercised in my yard. You don't even need that much space. Shelby loves her flirt pole. She also has an extra large solid ball. I throw the ball up the hill. Shelby runs up the hill, soccer rolls the ball with her paws and chases it down the hill. In both cases, her tongues is hanging out, when we stop playing. You won't get that on a walk. The third thing is the pulley system. My son made it for his own exercise - pulley, rope, bucket of sand. It soon became Shelby's toy. She treated it like a tug, but always pulled the bucket to the top. A tired dog is a good dog.

I cannot emphasize the bonding enough. You need to learn and respect your girls' thresholds. She needs to learn to trust you and know that you have her back. She may never be a go everywhere kind of dog. You might have to change your expectations.

Not sure if this link with work. I'll give it a try.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

banzai555 said:


> So what should I have done? Not walked her at all?


Maybe...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I love that bucket contraption! How did you teach her to pull it up? I’m putting together a course for my yard and I think I can throw a rope over a tree branch to make a pulley. I got the idea from Stonnie Dennis and agility.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

The bucket idea is genius, and I’m going to have to steal it with a few minor alterations! My GSD:Husky will LOVE this, he’s all about pulling stuff and tug.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

LuvShepherds said:


> I love that bucket contraption! How did you teach her to pull it up? I’m putting together a course for my yard and I think I can throw a rope over a tree branch to make a pulley. I got the idea from Stonnie Dennis and agility.


I didn't teach her. She is self taught. I think she grabbed the end of the rope one day, realized there was resistance from the bucket of sand and - GAME ON! HA!. 

It is really hard to teach Shelby things. She is incredibly sweet and I love her to death, but she is probably the dumbest dog I have ever seen. She does, however, have excellent problem solving skills. Like, she figured out that if the deck gate isn't latched tightly, she can flip it open and go into the yard. She was so pleased, the first time, that she opened the gate, came back, opened the gate, came back - over, over, and over. It's nice to have a dog that can entertain itself. I guess she is a different kind of smart. :grin2:


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Springbrz said:


> Ok I'm going to preface that I did not read all the responses. I have a female (6.5 yrs old)that is a poorly bred byb dog that we've had since a puppy. She has terrible nerves. She is fear aggressive, leash reactive, noise fearful, hasn't met another female dog she likes, hates cats. She is also the biggest love bug at home. Do I trust her with others ...NOPE! Do I love her to death...absolutely! Is she a good dog...mostly. She needs management.
> We spent a lot of money when she was young on a trainer. One on one training. He was great and helped us a lot to understand our girl and her limitations. The most important words he ever spoke to us and repeated many times over and I agree with wholly.
> 
> *"If your dog fails YOU failed your dog"*
> ...


I didn't move off the path because I really couldn't (we were as far to the side as we could have been). I've been trying various things to try to get her to just ignore dogs/people, so I was going for "put myself between them and just keep moving in an effort to teach her that she doesn't need to react and they'll go away". So yeah, that didn't work. I was kinda afraid LAT was just teaching her to pay MORE attention to things, knowing that when dogs/people approached I'd stop the walk and give her a treat. 

There have been a lot of responses to this and I have read them all, I assure you. Sorry for the delay--I went on a hike with a friend (without the dog) to cool off and try to get my head back. Right now I guess I'm thinking we'll cut our walks down from 2 a day to 1, and try to avoid people/dogs as much as possible during the 1 walk, keep her under threshold, and otherwise try to just give her exercise in the backyard. She sucks at fetch, but she does love chasing balls and sticks and then prancing around with them, sometimes entertaining herself throwing them back up into the air and chasing them again. So if I can tire her out that way, great. I also ordered a puzzle feeder so she can entertain herself that way, and I'll try hiding treats around the house I guess. 

And yes I hate myself for smacking her, I just felt like biting me is unacceptable and she needs to know that. She does it a lot too when we're out in the backyard and she's all worked up because we've been playing with the ball or zooming around the yard; she bounds up on her back legs like a kangaroo, punches me, and sometimes bites my hands. I don't know how to react to this other than ignore her and/or tell her "NO!" and then have her sit, but whatever I do, she's not really getting the message--she keeps doing it. I guess if it's a nervous thing, then my yelling at her isn't going to fix it, so...I'll go back to ignore?

I'm still really not feeling good about all this. I don't want to rehome her, honestly, for her own sake--I'm her third home already and I really don't want to have to put her through the stress of doing this all again. I am not afraid of her, just afraid of what she'll do to other people. But I guess right now I feel like I'm a horrible person and I can't help her because I don't know what the heck I am doing, and all my attempts at doing the "right" thing are just going to make her worse. Yes, my expectations when I got her are making this all worse, because her previous owners outright lied to me about her. I guess it should have been a red flag to me that the lady didn't seem sad at all when she gave her up.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You could try a bite suit and when she realizes biting doesn’t get her anything, she might stop. Negative attention can be rewarding, so she might like your reaction to her bites. Or nips. If they were real bites, she would have hurt you. But is she biting or is she speaking to you with her teeth? Is there a dog club anywhere near you where you can get her evaluated? She may not be as bad as you think she is if you learn better skills.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

banzai, GSDs are notoriously mouthy dogs. And no - we don't want their teeth to touch our skin, EVER. I taught my dogs "Gentle" and "No teeth." I did this by hand feeding a bit of kibble every meal. (The kibble I feed is rather small, but you can also purchase sample sizes of a brand you don't normally feed.) Hold the piece of kibble. Softly tell your dog, "Gentle." If she takes it gently - "Good girl! Gentle." If she catches your fingers, "No teeth!" Don't yell, but don't be nice about it either. By this repetition, your dog learns what you mean by gentle and no teeth. That way, when you are playing and things get out of hand, you can use those commands. Also, when teeth are used, play stops.

Don't be too hard on yourself. Of course you were upset that she bit you. My hound mix bit me a few months ago. I was very angry with him. He has always been a resource guarder. I made mistakes, so I have to own it, but I was still plenty unhappy about it. It was more of a tooth drag than a bad bite, but still... 

Try not to overthink things. Go back to basics. Start slow. 99% of dog ownership is common sense. Put some kibble in an empty plastic water bottle and let her work on getting it out. Put a treat under her bowl. Puzzles don't have to be expensive. LOL! Teach her tricks. Note something that she likes to do and incorporate that into a trick. My last shepherd always barked when someone came to the door. I taught her to bark on command by using, "Who is it?" Then, when I wanted her to stop, I'd say, "Enough!" Leash your dog and sit on the leash for 30 minutes every day. You can do this while reading the paper, working on the computer, etc. Ignore the dog. Allow her enough slack to lie down - eventually she will. This teaches the dog to relax. I can take my dogs anywhere and they will flop on the floor - even at the vet's. 

Take time to enjoy your dog. Really get to know her, as an individual. I think she will surprise you.

Hang in there!


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I did this by hand feeding a bit of kibble every meal. (The kibble I feed is rather small, but you can also purchase sample sizes of a brand you don't normally feed.) Hold the piece of kibble. Softly tell your dog, "Gentle." If she takes it gently - "Good girl! Gentle." If she catches your fingers, "No teeth!" Don't yell, but don't be nice about it either. By this repetition, your dog learns what you mean by gentle and no teeth. That way, when you are playing and things get out of hand, you can use those commands. Also, when teeth are used, play stops.


This! I hand feed at least 4-5 meals per week. When he was between 8 and 12 weeks I did it every kibble meal. It also helps with bonding.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I've been rooting for you and your dog! 
I'm so sorry to hear that this happened. :-(

I guess I have a soft spot for her, because my dog came with a lot of "baggage" too (I worried and worked a LOT, before he became the mellow suburbanite pet he appears to be now). Its sounds like there is a good dog underneath - from what you tell of her - but she just seems amped and frustrated. You sound like a good owner who does a lot with your dog.

When Rumo was somewhat reactive to other dogs and not good with passing people, we walked at odd times of the day. (2pm, 7:30pm!) We crossed the street at the sight of another dog walker. We ducked abruptly behind bushes and parked cars. I was careful never to get caught in a narrow path (after a bad incident involving two large poodles). My eyes were always scanning the horizon...it took weeks of training ("Look at Me!") and voice feedback and commands, but it's OK now.

When your dog checks in with you (when passing a stranger or strange dog) that's great! You can say, "Good girl! What a good girl!" And keep that positive relaxed calm upbeat mood as you pass (at a good distance) the other being. Don't crank the leash (you can shorten it subtly, without your dog noticing, by walking your hands up it). Adjust your trajectory gradually so that you are keeping or increasing your distance from them while you pass. Keep trying to get your dog's attention and keep her from getting hyperfocused on that other dog/human. 

A group obedience class would be great. She would learn to focus on *you* in the presence of other dogs/humans. Hopefully she can handle the class - I thought my dog would be crazy, the worst dog there - but when he walked into the room and saw other dogs calmly sitting on their mats, I unrolled his mat (in my case, our bathmat that I grabbed at the last second before class) and he sat on it! Dogs do copy each other...it is cute to see.

Good luck and no judgment here, whatever you decide to do. She just may not be the dog for an inexperienced owner.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The reason I suggested rehoming is to offer support if the OP wants to. When I was deep into rescue and ended up keeping a dog we could not find another home for, a trainer said if we wanted a dog we could take places and enjoy like our previous one, we should keep looking. It’s terribly unfair that people give up dogs privately that haven’t been evaluated by a professional and without information an adoptee needs to make the right choice. No one should be forced or guilted into keeping a dog whose behavior they don’t want to deal with. One reason I push people toward using a good rescue is that if it doesn’t work out, the rescue will take the dog back. I know many of us have kept dogs we needed to manage for the rest of their lives. It doesn’t mean that is the right choice for everyone. A busy adult should not have to do deal with bad behavior just because they wanted to adopt a dog and got challenges they didn’t expect. It ends up sucking all the enjoyment out of dog ownership.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> The reason I suggested rehoming is to offer support if the OP wants to. When I was deep into rescue and ended up keeping a dog we could not find another home for, a trainer said if we wanted a dog we could take places and enjoy like our previous one, we should keep looking. It’s terribly unfair that people give up dogs privately that haven’t been evaluated by a professional and without information an adoptee needs to make the right choice. No one should be forced or guilted into keeping a dog whose behavior they don’t want to deal with. One reason I push people toward using a good rescue is that if it doesn’t work out, the rescue will take the dog back. I know many of us have kept dogs we needed to manage for the rest of their lives. It doesn’t mean that is the right choice for everyone. A busy adult should not have to do deal with bad behavior just because they wanted to adopt a dog and got challenges they didn’t expect. It ends up sucking all the enjoyment out of dog ownership.


I appreciate that. At this point I feel like I'd be giving up too soon, so I'm going to give it some time and just really spend the next few weeks trying to keep her from reacting at all on walks (by not walking her as much and by avoiding people like the plague). I am worried, though, about what I'm going to do with her when I have to spend 11 hour days running a big game check station every weekend, which starts October 26. We have a small travel trailer we use as a base but it's obviously very cramped and I have 4-5 undergrad volunteers helping out. There are people milling around, dead animals coming in, a highway with 70-mph traffic mere feet away....basically lots of stimulation and activity. I can bring her crate along and either keep her inside my truck or outside on a long line (with access to her crate) and away from people, but I'm definitely not bringing her inside the trailer with my volunteers. And then, later in November, when it could very well be snowing with frigid temps outside and we're all huddled in the trailer with the propane heater to keep warm? NO idea what I"ll do with her. 

Yeah I'm not looking forward to it at all. I don't have a choice though, unless I want to just leave her at home in the backyard all day and hope she doesn't escape (I have a short section of 4.5-foot fence she could probably jump if she really wanted to.....or she could easily dig out too). If I end up having to make a decision about whether or not to keep her, it will likely hinge on her behavior at the check station. The check station is a major, MAJOR part of my job and I can't not do it. It is not an option. 

I guess the other thing I worry about is what would happen to her if I gave her up. I can try giving her back to the lady I got her from, but then that lady didn't seem like she cared too much who got her, plus it sounded like she had to keep the dog in a small dog run all the time because her other dogs were beating up on her. There is actually a GSD rescue here but I went there back in the spring and just...wasn't super impressed by how they ran things, and the owner tried to push this young, completely untrained GSD on me even though I really didn't feel comfortable with it. 

I have to ask myself if I am prepared to take on a dog that is great at home but a horror with strangers. Can I manage it? Maybe; but it'll mean completely ditching the dreams I had of a dog who would hike with me, come to work with me, run with me. At this point we can't do any of those things safely. Will it get better with time? Maybe but there's no guarantee.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It might get better but usually it doesn’t. I’ve had honeymoon periods where the dog seemed Ok but after a month or to, bam! Their true behaviors emerged. I fostered a different breed for a while, and we had a few signs, but then during the holidays with a lot of people around one of the dogs leaned in for a huge bite of someone’s leg. Luckily they saw it coming and jumped. It sounds like you need a real companion dog you can take anywhere, and she is not going to be that dog. A fast paced work situation in close quarters could be very stressful for her. Since she hasn’t bitten anyone, you could contact a rescue group, tell them the situation and let them decide. You can continue to foster her until they find a home. Just based on my own experience, and your wishes for a go-everywhere dog, she isn’t the right dog for you. She could be very comfortable in a less active home where she wouldn’t need to be exposed to so many strange people and dogs.


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## wolfmonte (Aug 28, 2019)

That's one of the issues with getting Large breed dogs. GSDs are harder than other breeds to teach. Getting adult GSD from shelter is hit or miss situation. Some GSDs in shelters are badly bred and can't work with certain type of handlers. Maybe this one is not for you. Some GSDs are like very fruity and loving. Most of the time it is due to the upbringing and how they were handled. A lot of people get GSDs and dump them in backyard of kennel and don't give them enough exercise. It causes the Dog to become very stressful. When they get chance to be out, they take out stress by biting or aggression. Maybe get a younger pup like 4 months if you can, or get an adult dog that is very lovey dovey and not serious at all (rare). You can get a trainer and teach basic obedience, but you may not develop the bond. Getting mad or upset on dog is useless because dogs aren't humans who do it for revenge or because they are spiteful. There is some issue that needs to be worked on. You may not be the type of handler that is good for this specific dog. 

All of my GSDs have been very friendly and open and no dog or human aggression in them. Once I got a pitbull from shelter. She attacked me in same week. Luckily she was chained (I suspected her to be a bit off). I gave her away to another person who had handled such dogs. Later on she had to be put down because she would attack him.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Your lifestyle just keeps getting busier and busier, and you don’t have a dog that can keep up with that type of lifestyle. You say you don’t want to give up on her yet, but have you thought about the fact that her behavior and fear is going to continue to be compounded by your super social life? She deserves more than that. And you deserve a dog that can be super social with you. I’m not sure why you went with a GSD, they aren’t social dogs outside their families for the most part, and especially not when they are weak nerved. I would 100% rehome this dog to someone who has a less people active life, and get a breed that enjoys being around people and new places. There is no shame in finding you’re not compatible with a dog and rehoming it. It’s honestly in both of your best interests.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Jchrest said:


> Your lifestyle just keeps getting busier and busier, and you don’t have a dog that can keep up with that type of lifestyle. You say you don’t want to give up on her yet, but have you thought about the fact that her behavior and fear is going to continue to be compounded by your super social life? She deserves more than that. And you deserve a dog that can be super social with you. I’m not sure why you went with a GSD, they aren’t social dogs outside their families for the most part, and especially not when they are weak nerved. I would 100% rehome this dog to someone who has a less people active life, and get a breed that enjoys being around people and new places. There is no shame in finding you’re not compatible with a dog and rehoming it. It’s honestly in both of your best interests.


I guess because all the other GSDs I've met have been sociable and friendly. I love how smart, active, and loyal they are. I dont know where you're getting this idea that I'm "super social"; I happened to have a couple of friends spend one night at my house, and I have to run a super busy check station for 6 weekends/year as part of my job. Yeah, I was hoping to have a friendly dog I could take around town, but that wasn't a dealbreaker for me. Just a bummer. 

Honestly, if Willow just has to become a house dog who never goes out, I feel like I can manage that, it'll just be kinda a bummer. I don't know what kind of situation would suit her; a house in the country with a hermit who never goes out? A professional GSD trainer? What are the odds of finding her something like that? I want her to have a good life. I don't hate her for who she is, not at all; it makes me extremely sad if I can't give her what she needs. I am changing a lot for her, I am trying to manage my expectations, change when things aren't working. Yes, I am learning and I make mistakes. If I had assurances that whoever I rehomed her to could honestly give her a better life and wouldn't just rehome her AGAIN or euthanize her, then I would do it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Rarely are GSDs sociable and friendly without early socialization, either close up or from a distance. My first GSD was very social but the early part was due to excellent breeding and exposure. We got her at 12 weeks and from the ride home, she was around a lot of people. I had a steady stream of activity. I took her to a school twice a day where she was around children. She went on errands with me and she sat with me while I worked. The dogs you meet who are friendly have had good breeding a lot of early exposure. You can’t go back and make that up if the dog never got it. Yes, GSDS can be social in spite of what people here say. I’ve had three that were very sociable, but they were not breed standard, which calls for a dog to be more aloof.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> Rarely are GSDs sociable and friendly without early socialization, either close up or from a distance. My first GSD was very social but the early part was due to excellent breeding and exposure. We got her at 12 weeks and from the ride home, she was around a lot of people. I had a steady stream of activity. I took her to a school twice a day where she was around children. She went on errands with me and she sat with me while I worked. The dogs you meet who are friendly have had good breeding a lot of early exposure. You can’t go back and make that up if the dog never got it. Yes, GSDS can be social in spite of what people here say. I’ve had three that were very sociable, but they were not breed standard, which calls for a dog to be more aloof.


I would be OK with aloof; she doesn't need to love everyone. She just needs to not act like she wants to kill everybody she meets. If she ignored people, I would happily take that, that would be fine. And that's what she did the first two weeks I had her; she was suspicious of people but just walked away from them without being aggressive. I don't know how we went from that to lashing out. I didn't even know what her bark sounded like for the first two weeks. 

If she was never properly socialized as a puppy, is she like....ruined then? I mean some people are saying give it more time, some are saying it might get better, some recommend training, some say it will probably not get better and I should just accept it and manage it. I can probably manage it, but yeah. It's a bummer, and she will suffer because of it, versus if she had someone more experienced who could maybe work with her.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Jchrest said:


> Your lifestyle just keeps getting busier and busier, and you don’t have a dog that can keep up with that type of lifestyle. You say you don’t want to give up on her yet, but have you thought about the fact that her behavior and fear is going to continue to be compounded by your super social life? She deserves more than that. And you deserve a dog that can be super social with you. I’m not sure why you went with a GSD, they aren’t social dogs outside their families for the most part, and especially not when they are weak nerved. I would 100% rehome this dog to someone who has a less people active life, and get a breed that enjoys being around people and new places. There is no shame in finding you’re not compatible with a dog and rehoming it. It’s honestly in both of your best interests.





banzai555 said:


> I guess because all the other GSDs I've met have been sociable and friendly. I love how smart, active, and loyal they are. I dont know where you're getting this idea that I'm "super social"; I happened to have a couple of friends spend one night at my house, and I have to run a super busy check station for 6 weekends/year as part of my job. Yeah, I was hoping to have a friendly dog I could take around town, but that wasn't a dealbreaker for me. Just a bummer.
> 
> Honestly, if Willow just has to become a house dog who never goes out, I feel like I can manage that, it'll just be kinda a bummer. I don't know what kind of situation would suit her; a house in the country with a hermit who never goes out? A professional GSD trainer? What are the odds of finding her something like that? I want her to have a good life. I don't hate her for who she is, not at all; it makes me extremely sad if I can't give her what she needs. I am changing a lot for her, I am trying to manage my expectations, change when things aren't working. Yes, I am learning and I make mistakes. If I had assurances that whoever I rehomed her to could honestly give her a better life and wouldn't just rehome her AGAIN or euthanize her, then I would do it.



Friendly GSDs are exceedingly common and more the norm up here in Montana. The far majority of dogs are of pretty even friendly temperaments it's the health issues from byb breeders that are a kicker. There are also a fair bit of nervy dogs that is starting to increase but the far majority seem to be fairly friendly. An adult dog I got that was bred here was rehomed for being too friendly. And she is exceedingly sweet but she will still bark to alert when somebody who is not one of us comes home and defended our cats non-aggressively from a neighbor's dog. She also has decently high herding instincts and would probably have been a passable herding dog in the right hands. Growing up we had a very sweet GSD who was good with strangers but preferred family. Far too many take the german shepherds should be aloof to pass off dogs who are inappropriately aggressive. I agree they aren't supposed to want to be everybody's friend but it states in the standard they shouldn't be seeking attention but should be willing to tolerate it if given. And yes inadequate training could result in a dog who might nip to let others know they don't want to be pet but that's not quite the point I'm trying to make. 



To the OP I'm sorry that you're having this trouble. I wanted a dog I could take places to family gatherings, around town and such. I totally get where you're coming from. Everybody with a german shepherd than I know personally can do that with theirs. With proper training and proper introduction to a basket muzzle you may be able to work more with her and get her closer to a point you like. A strong place command can do wonders to help a dog get to a better mindspace and at the very least ignore guests in the home.


It's sad to hear that the german shepherd rescue didn't seem to great. The little I'd heard didn't seem too bad but I'm not honestly very surprised. That said with how much dedication you've shown towards Willow I think you could get a younger dog needing basic training and really go somewhere with them as long as they didn't have any major issues. Around here (harder now that facebook is cracking down on pet sales) tons of people rehome their GSDs around 8 months old. One person had a lovely dog but got tired of him and he kept chewing up her kids toys. They're definitely out there around here.


If you need help rehoming I can check in with some people I know. Unfortunately the person I know who would take her in a heartbeat I believe found a dog (they only adopt problem issue shepherds to give them another chance). But I could reach out and see if there's anybody with the skillset and willingness to take her in. Since she' spayed now it's a lot easier to find somebody who wouldn't want her just to pump out puppies.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Kazel said:


> If you need help rehoming I can check in with some people I know. Unfortunately the person I know who would take her in a heartbeat I believe found a dog (they only adopt problem issue shepherds to give them another chance). But I could reach out and see if there's anybody with the skillset and willingness to take her in. Since she' spayed now it's a lot easier to find somebody who wouldn't want her just to pump out puppies.


That would be fantastic. Yeah, the lady I got her from did want me to sign a spay contract, so that was good on her part...and yes she's spayed now so hopefully no BYBs would be tempted to scoop her up (she's a friggin beautiful dog---everyone we meet says so, before she starts barking at them like a rabid fiend). 

That's my only hesitation to giving her up. I've had her for almost two months and she's definitely attached to me, if not properly "bonded" (and I don't blame her if she doesn't quite trust me yet, since I obviously don't know what I'm doing and have gotten mad at her more than a few times). I don't want to put her through more stress unless I know it would end in a great, great way for her.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

LuvShepherds said:


> Rarely are GSDs sociable and friendly without early socialization, either close up or from a distance. My first GSD was very social but the early part was due to excellent breeding and exposure. We got her at 12 weeks and from the ride home, she was around a lot of people. I had a steady stream of activity. I took her to a school twice a day where she was around children. She went on errands with me and she sat with me while I worked. The dogs you meet who are friendly have had good breeding a lot of early exposure. You can’t go back and make that up if the dog never got it. Yes, GSDS can be social in spite of what people here say. I’ve had three that were very sociable, but they were not breed standard, which calls for a dog to be more aloof.


Friendly byb shepherds are the norm here. What people are used to. It certainly isn't good breeding and tons of socialization the dogs in general are just more easy going or pets. There are still issues with desctructive dogs and nervy dogs are sadly starting to become more common. But for the longest time it was mostly dogs with good temperament(in general not necessarily standard shepherd) with health issues more likely as the people obviously did no health testing.

The shepherds I grew up around and had were all dogs that you could have guests over no problem. Our one probably could've gone into tracking if my dad had been so inclined, but ended up with some health issues as he aged up and died from bloat, I'm thinking DM or something similar. My friend that has a shepherd I can already tell he's going to have some sort of structural issues back or hips I'm not sure yet. But he has a decent temperament for a pet which is what most people are buying and selling up this way. The puppy he had before that was euthed for Mega E, but now Bailey chairs are a things so hopefully that goes better for future dogs with the condition. 

As far as aloof at a big family gathering I went to was a dog that with no problem navigated through all the people. He might come and let you pet him if you had food but otherwise he just did his own thing or got attention from his owner. Wasn't skittish or anything merely easily maneuvered around people and kept his space if he didn't want you to pet him. Although that isn't technically friendly when describing dogs to somebody I'd probably say there was a nice dog or friendly enough. So as a side note when I saw friendly I'm not necessarily always talking about a dog that rushes everybody for attention. I count a dog that isn't skittish, fearful, or mean as friendly when describing them even if that isn't accurate. Like yeah he's friendly, he may not come up for attention but he won't come and bite you. Was kind of how dogs were categorized growing up.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

A year ago, my dog bit me twice (and drew blood) on the same day. He's a resource guarder. Needless to say I was really mad at him. The next day was a new day, and I already "moved on." This whole year, I've been working on the resource guarding. I can now take his ball or frisbees away without him growling or snapping at me. I can put my hand in his bowl without him stiffening up and snapping at my hand. He'll always be a resource guarder but I put in a lot of time, effort, and patience to work on the problem.

My dog is also a reactive - I think fear aggressive - dog. Every single dog that he sees, his hackles come up and he barks his head off. When he was a puppy, other dogs barking would scare him and he'd run back home. He doesn't pay attention to me and lunges at the end of the leash. He's pulled me down from his lunging. Many times, it got me upset at him. In the last half a year or so, I've been working on the problem. It's getting better. Not yet perfect. At the very least he's not triggered by all the dogs...just some of them. So it's getting better.

I tell you these 2 stories because I didn't let my dog's serious behaviors get me hating my dog or thinking of rehoming him or whatever. If anything it made me more determined at fixing/managing his "problems." He's not perfect and he still has his moments because he's still not yet 2 years old but I feel good at the progress I've made and am making now.

I'm wondering...do you do any training with her outside, especially on walks? The reason I ask is I found my dog listened to me 95% in the home and almost none at all outside. I figured out that because I never did any training outside...so he thought obedience only belonged in the house. When you're walking her, do some random sits, downs, sit-stays, down-stays, look-at-mes, etc. The whole purpose is not just obedience but to have your dog focused on you, and not on the surroundings. When a dog walks by, distract her with her favorite toy or treat. My dog loves his frisbees above all. So I use it to train him. When we're playing frisbee in the backyard, he'll ignore other dogs, deer, and other animals. He'll take a quick look at them, but he's so focused on the frisbee. Find that something that your dog is crazy about.

Everyone's saying find a trainer...yes, find a good trainer. Or at the very least do a lot of research on the correct way to handle these situations. You can "beat" this. Put in the time, effort, and patience. Don't hold grudges, it's a waste of time and serves no purpose. And remember, they're dogs, not people. Someone told me this when I had my first dog years ago...."they may or may not understand what you're mad at in the moment, but they sure won't understand why you're still mad an hour later."

And by the way, I'm sure most of us will understand if you don't want to deal with this, so don't feel too bad if you decide to rehome her. It takes a certain kind of person to be able to handle/fix/manage a dog like this. For me, I just hate giving up....that's just who I am...so I worked on fixing the problem, including fixing myself. Anyway, good luck and please keep us informed.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

banzai555 said:


> I don't know what I did to her to make her this way. She didn't do this stuff when I first got her. She was scared of stuff, sure, but she didn't bark or lunge at them until about 2 weeks after I got her--she'd just look at them and then look at me, and I'd ignore, and she'd ignore. Now...I feel like I must've done something to encourage this.


Could have been the "honeymoon period"? Typical with rescue dogs - they are adjusting to their surroundings, getting used to things, and not quite themselves yet. To have been rehomed so much, she must have had some issues - possibly even THESE issues. So don't be too quick to blame yourself...

So...and I'm *NOT* being critical of you at all...the difference between us might be, after an outburst like that, I wouldn't feel mad. I wouldn't feel that she's defied me, or failed me. I feel like: "Darn, I let her get too close!! Note to self- don't get so close next time! " After my dog calms down, I will enjoy the rest of our hike (but will be listening for people coming up the trail, and will make lots of space between us and them!) So that is...I feel like the responsibility is on me (to manage the environment and teach her what to do, how to behave) and not on her. 

My dog has never "redirected" on me though, so I don't know how I'd feel about that! Probably scared of him.

If you don't feel like working through all this (it was a lot of time and daily practice/training for us) I would totally understand. ( I once complained to my friend, "I got a dog to be my walking and hiking buddy, but I don't even enjoy hiking anymore! I'm always watching the horizon for other people and dogs!" )


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Might I make a suggestion:

Given that you only have a little over a week to make a decision about what to do with Willow while you have to work very long days over the weekends.

You mentioned you have a yard so I'm assuming you live in a house. Do you have garage that has access to your backyard. Is it possible to put in a dog door and put up an outdoor kennel directly outside the door. Places like tractor supply sell self install 6-8 ft high kennel systems. Willow could have shelter, warmth, food and water in the garage and still have access to outside to potty while you are gone.

I realize you are debating whether you want to keep her and it's an expense you may or may not want to make at this time. However, If you can't find her a home before your long work days this could be a good solution that would make you both less stressed out. If you decide to keep her and continue to work through her issues this would be a good solution for any long day or when you have house guests.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Hitting a GSD is almost always the wrong thing to do, because you basically have to abuse them to actually give them enough of a deterrent that they will remember not to do a thing. If it is not enough, it will ramp them up and they will see us as very weak leaders. 

A weak leader (in the dog's eye) means the dog may have to protect itself. The dog doesn't trust you to protect it, so, as soon as the dog sees anything scary, she is off and barking and lunging. And I think you are right, that the next step is biting the object of her fear. 

No off-lead for this dog. You and she are not there yet. Sometimes dogs react more with a leash, because they aren't stupid, and when you remove flight, they are stuck with fight. But a reactive dog, is a scared dog, and a scared dog is a danger to themselves and others. You minimize that danger by keeping the lead on the dog. 

You got off on the wrong foot, it is time to regroup and rethink this. She is affectionate, you need to take and write down her good qualities, what she likes, what behaviors she is good at, and you need to build on that. 

For a reactive/scared dog, you need to build their confidence. This may mean, as others suggested, not going for walks. Exercise her in the yard by throwing the ball. For now. You will want to adjust your way of communicating with her. You want to set her up to succeed and praise her for it. 95% of all training/communication should be praise worthy. Only 5% or less should include corrections of any sort. 

Corrections (voice corrections) can be super effective if they are used properly and rarely. Again, you tweak the circumstances. You set her up to succeed and praise her for it. Build her up. Make yourself better than chopped liver to her. Keep training, light and short and FUN, with plenty of praise. 

If you are out for a walk, you anticipate what she might do before it happens and adjust your course before it happens. For now.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

banzai555 said:


> I guess because all the other GSDs I've met have been sociable and friendly. I love how smart, active, and loyal they are. I dont know where you're getting this idea that I'm "super social"; I happened to have a couple of friends spend one night at my house, and I have to run a super busy check station for 6 weekends/year as part of my job. Yeah, I was hoping to have a friendly dog I could take around town, but that wasn't a dealbreaker for me. Just a bummer.
> 
> Honestly, if Willow just has to become a house dog who never goes out, I feel like I can manage that, it'll just be kinda a bummer. I don't know what kind of situation would suit her; a house in the country with a hermit who never goes out? A professional GSD trainer? What are the odds of finding her something like that? I want her to have a good life. I don't hate her for who she is, not at all; it makes me extremely sad if I can't give her what she needs. I am changing a lot for her, I am trying to manage my expectations, change when things aren't working. Yes, I am learning and I make mistakes. If I had assurances that whoever I rehomed her to could honestly give her a better life and wouldn't just rehome her AGAIN or euthanize her, then I would do it.





banzai555 said:


> I would be OK with aloof; she doesn't need to love everyone. She just needs to not act like she wants to kill everybody she meets. If she ignored people, I would happily take that, that would be fine. And that's what she did the first two weeks I had her; she was suspicious of people but just walked away from them without being aggressive. I don't know how we went from that to lashing out. I didn't even know what her bark sounded like for the first two weeks.
> 
> If she was never properly socialized as a puppy, is she like....ruined then? I mean some people are saying give it more time, some are saying it might get better, some recommend training, some say it will probably not get better and I should just accept it and manage it. I can probably manage it, but yeah. It's a bummer, and she will suffer because of it, versus if she had someone more experienced who could maybe work with her.


When people come over, just pop her in her crate or your room. My dog rarely socializes with guests. 
She can be taught to ignore people and dogs, it just takes time and the ground work should be done at home. I use "look at me" with Shadow, she was also taught "mind your business" and "leave it" has shockingly broad parameters.
Take her to work, just put her in a crate. 
Something no one has mentioned to you is stress. It takes a really long time for the effects of stress to leave the body. When I was walking Shadow daily, she was forever in a fearful and stressed state because I never gave her time to recover. When I stopped walking her and kept her home for a few months the dog I got was totally different, She relaxed, focused and learned. She is now fine with invited guests, we walk all the time. 
Willow is fine, you are fine. All this is doable.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Well, I slept on it and don't feel a whole lot better. I find myself looking at her and being kinda disappointed and a little resentful, but I'm trying hard not to show that to her, and try to treat her normally. However, I have decided to stop "babying" her--ignoring her more when she follows me around, not constantly worrying about where she is and what she's doing in the house. I've made a conscious decision not to let her anxieties dominate my waking life. 

This morning we did a short walk/run and I did use the prong collar, but mostly to stop her pulling on the lead which she's really bad at. I didn't have to correct her for anything but the pressure keeps her from pulling. She also has developed this habit where she won't poop in the yard but waits for our walks, so if I'm going to be crating her for 8 hours I kinda want to make sure she poops in the morning. I made sure to avoid the problem dogs-in-yards that I know about, and the one person we came across was given a wide berth by crossing the street (and he was getting into his car so she couldn't really see him anyway). I told her "good girl" when she heeled and we also practiced some sit-down-stay while out on the street. No more frequenting the river parks where we might get caught on a narrow trail, and no more off leash. And she gets super anxious and annoying on car rides so no more car rides. 

When we got home, I took her straight to the backyard and played some ball with her for like 5 minutes which got her good and panting. A few minutes is all I get though, because then she'll quit chasing the ball and go work on a hole she's begun excavating under my compost piles (which I guess is fine; as long as she's not burrowing under a fence I really don't care, and I also suspect this is a pseudopregnancy response since I spayed her 2 weeks after her heat). We went inside, I got ready for work while she kinda cooled off (and also paced and whined I guess because she suspects I'm leaving for work, but I ignored her), then I put her in her crate with a Kong and walked away. She barked twice but I left anyway. 

We will no longer do afternoon walks; we'll play in the backyard, I might leave her back there for longer periods of time while I'm home. I do have a little shed that's protected from the elements but not heated, but I can put her outdoor crate in there and some straw and maybe that will be good enough for her while I'm at the check station? Or I can look into getting a dog run, though she has had bad experiences with those (the lady I got her from said she'd had to keep her in one of those, and Willow tried to dig out and also gnawed a hot spot on her thigh). I can also maybe block off the sunroom from the rest of the house, put her crate in there, and if she has an accident at least the floor is easy to clean. I don't have any dog doors and probably don't have time to get one/install it before the check station starts. 

So that's where I'm at. I'm hoping the resentful feeling will pass (I'm sure it will). I'm going to try my hardest not to get mad at her when she pisses me off and just stop whatever we're doing and go cool off. And yeah, no experiences AT ALL that might get her worked up, at least until the check station. And if someone comes along in the meantime who can guarantee that they can give her a better life, I'll consider it.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Well, I slept on it and don't feel a whole lot better. I find myself looking at her and being kinda disappointed and a little resentful, but I'm trying hard not to show that to her, and try to treat her normally. However, I have decided to stop "babying" her--ignoring her more when she follows me around, not constantly worrying about where she is and what she's doing in the house. I've made a conscious decision not to let her anxieties dominate my waking life.
> 
> This morning we did a short walk/run and I did use the prong collar, but mostly to stop her pulling on the lead which she's really bad at. I didn't have to correct her for anything but the pressure keeps her from pulling. She also has developed this habit where she won't poop in the yard but waits for our walks, so if I'm going to be crating her for 8 hours I kinda want to make sure she poops in the morning. I made sure to avoid the problem dogs-in-yards that I know about, and the one person we came across was given a wide berth by crossing the street (and he was getting into his car so she couldn't really see him anyway). I told her "good girl" when she heeled and we also practiced some sit-down-stay while out on the street. No more frequenting the river parks where we might get caught on a narrow trail, and no more off leash. And she gets super anxious and annoying on car rides so no more car rides.
> 
> ...


Question, approximately how many hours a day are you crating her and if so, when and why do you crate her. I get the feeling you are not crating her enough and she is ruling the roost a bit.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Question, approximately how many hours a day are you crating her and if so, when and why do you crate her. I get the feeling you are not crating her enough and she is ruling the roost a bit.


I crate her while I am at work. About 6-8.5 hours; sometimes I have work I can do at home, so I'll come home before 8 hours. 

I'm also still crating her at night.

I crated her for about an hour on Sunday when she was acting absolutely crazy and needed a timeout, however I try really hard not to make the crate seem like punishment because it's one of the only things she "came with" that helps me manage her (she LOVES that crate). 

Yeah the "ruling the roost" thing, I began wondering this morning if some of her aggression on walks is actually resource guarding (me) or territoriality or something, encouraged because I pay too much attention to her at home. I'm thinking of moving her crate again, out of the living room and into the sunroom so if she wants to be in her crate, I won't be near her.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

On weekends I crate her when I'm going to be gone for >2 hours, otherwise I'm trying to get her used to being loose in the house little by little. She hasn't shown any propensity to chew on things or be destructive. If you think it'd be better to keep her in her crate ANY time I leave, I can do that. Again just not sure what's best.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Hi again, fear aggression really needs to be dealt with at an early age. Get engaged with a trainer as soon as possible. Again, slow down, it is easy to keep at it looking for instant gratification or confirmation that she is fine or fixed. I have to stop myself all the time from putting my dog into the same negative situation to see if he has improved. It become more about the owner than the dog. Just chill. Another thing that caught my attention was getting home and her lying on your bed and you upset with her - get that dog in the crate!


Also sorry I never addressed this specifically--she was not lying on MY bed, she was lying on her dog bed on the floor. I was just still kinda fuming at what she had done, while she rested (yes, that's not productive, and is why I then left to go on a hike and get away from her for a bit---and crated her while I was out).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Maybe you and her are not a good match? What qualities in her made you adopt her?


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> Maybe you and her are not a good match? What qualities in her made you adopt her?


1. I knew I didn't have time to devote to raising a puppy. I actually tried that two years ago and about had a nervous breakdown within a week. 

2. My one dealbreaker was SA--since I am busy, I could not have a dog with SA. Willow has shown no indication of SA. And she came off, at first, as a dog that I could easily take to work with me, in the office or while doing field work (but her whining in the car/truck is SO ridiculous that I really don't want to do that anymore). 

3. The lady I got her from said she was "protective" of the car and would bark at people if left in there. OK, no big deal. She also said she was shy of men and suspected she was beaten. Again, no big deal. She told me she "didn't have a mean bone in her body" and was "super submissive"--the reason she was giving her up was because her other dog, Willow's biological sister, was beating up on her. I know Willow wasn't spayed at that time and I suspect her other dog wasn't, either. 

(Some backstory: the lady got Willow's sister in OR, then moved to MT. Willow was living with some guy who also had her brother. Willow accidentally got bred to her brother, had 2 puppies with a really really hard delivery. I don't know what happened after that but apparently Willow wasn't working with this guy, possibly ended up back at the original breeder, and somehow the lady in MT was asked if she wanted to take her since she had her sister. So the lady drove to OR and picked her up.)

4. When I first met Willow, on a leash with her owner, she showed absolutely no fear of me--didn't growl at me, didn't bark at me, came right up to me. She appeared anxious and was whining. No indication of aggression at all.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I don't think it is time to give up, just yet.

Try, for two weeks, training her daily for the specific things you need her to do in order to be a good off leash hiking companion and to hang out in the car calmly.

The commands I'd work on if I were you are: Sit or down-stay in place, and at a distance. Heel/with me (informal). Recall. 

That's it. 

Start in the yard or house, then move to the front yard, then the car. Really give it a good go for two weeks. 

If you don't see improvement or progress, if it's just not your thing to train a dog like this, start thinking how devoted you are this particular dog and whether or not it is a good fit.

But give it two weeks, and really work on the training. Every day, several times a day, short upbeat sessions, end on a good note. 

Check out Stonnie Dennis, Tyler Muto, Jamie Penrith, all on YouTube for basic primers on how to train these commands. 

You may find, a the end of two weeks, you have a very different relationship and are eager for a future with your dog.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Also sorry I never addressed this specifically--she was not lying on MY bed, she was lying on her dog bed on the floor. I was just still kinda fuming at what she had done, while she rested (yes, that's not productive, and is why I then left to go on a hike and get away from her for a bit---and crated her while I was out).


Ok thanks for all the background on crating. Seems like you are doing it right. As you suggested, maybe not in the same room as you might help. Make me wonder if having a crate in my bedroom is going to be hard to un-do. I just like him next to me at night! I have a crate downstairs too. I did think she was on your bed when I posted that.

In terms of ignoring a dog. There is a skill to it, if you do it right, they will want your attention and respond better to your commands and body language. Ignoring (for lack of better word) is simply going about your business and not be all over the dog. It's hard to describe.

I am my dogs master in my household, no question about it, he responds best to me, follows me on every move and actually behaves. I see Frisco the least in my household and give him the least attention. The kids are all over him and my girlfriend is the second master, but not on the same level as me. She doesn't have the voice or the body language and stature and he definitely knows what he can get away with. He almost seems to want to not disappoint me. I do all the training which I am sure contributes. 

So on ignoring, just make sure you come first. Make sure you don't respond immediately to every request she has. Even going to the door to go out. Make her wait a minute or five before hoping off the couch and putting your shoes on. Put her in the crate for 5-10 minutes here and there when you need to go down the basement to do a load. Don't always make a big deal out of everything. Let her know you expect certain behavior. That said, you do want to reward when she is acting right. As an example, when Frisco is sitting in the kitchen near the counter looking at me cook and SO wanting to jump up, I treat him and say yes or good boy. You may think, hey how does the dog know what he is getting rewarded for? He may not know specifically, but he does know that, hey, I sit here on my butt while he is cooking and something good happens to me, I'll run with that.


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## SeniorGSD (Aug 22, 2019)

I’m surprised at the number of people telling the OP that she can work through this. Am I the only one that sees what a horrible match this is? What horrible lack of planning happened on OP’s part? You can’t adopt a dog and expect it to just fall in line. You can’t get hysterical every time the dog does something you don’t like. You don’t have the time to get her comfortable enough to take her to another new environment that is heavy on people and possibly animal traffic before you start there next week. You work long hours and have little patience for the needs of this particular dog. If you couldn’t handle a puppy, you certainly can’t handle a fear aggressive German Shepherd. In many ways they are more needy then puppies. 

Rehome the dog and get a cat.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

banzai555 said:


> Frisco19 said:
> 
> 
> > Question, approximately how many hours a day are you crating her and if so, when and why do you crate her. I get the feeling you are not crating her enough and she is ruling the roost a bit.
> ...


I really doubt it.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Saco said:


> I don't think it is time to give up, just yet.
> 
> Try, for two weeks, training her daily for the specific things you need her to do in order to be a good off leash hiking companion and to hang out in the car calmly.
> 
> ...


Great advice, I would just add, focus on one at a time and only spend 10-15 minutes on it a day. Make sure she is hungry. You would be surprised. It only takes two sessions to get them to understand.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

It's possible none of this was really aggression at all. You said she bites you when she is "all worked up" playing. So she lacks boundaries about her mouth...should have learned no mouthing as a pup.

I have a dog who used to air snap when I would reach for a toy to throw. Same dog sometimes will mouth at the pocket of my training vest while heeling if he gets too ramped. It's not aggression. With him it's more like a reflexive response to overstimulation. I just mark it as unacceptable for him....also work on over all stimulation levels... cease training/engaging for a minute if it happens. He is a soft dog who really really wants to please. 

Your dog could have gotten over stimulated and lost control when she got so close to the other dogs which resulted in her nipping.

I don't know. I wasn't there...but every time a GSD barks and lunges on a leash it does not mean they want to eat people. It can be aggression but not always.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

SeniorGSD said:


> I’m surprised at the number of people telling the OP that she can work through this. Am I the only one that sees what a horrible match this is? What horrible lack of planning happened on OP’s part? You can’t adopt a dog and expect it to just fall in line. You can’t get hysterical every time the dog does something you don’t like. You don’t have the time to get her comfortable enough to take her to another new environment that is heavy on people and possibly animal traffic before you start there next week. You work long hours and have little patience for the needs of this particular dog. If you couldn’t handle a puppy, you certainly can’t handle a fear aggressive German Shepherd. In many ways they are more needy then puppies.
> 
> Rehome the dog and get a cat.


Well a lot of this is extremely unfair. I don't get "hysterical", but I do lose my temper for a few seconds and then move on, and get away from the dog if I need to cool off. The person I adopted her from was not honest with me about some of her behaviors, and I don't know how I could have prevented that. As I said, Willow's behavior was pretty good during the first two weeks I had her. I did not foresee any of this and I don't think it was because of lack of planning. 

Just a **** comment honestly, you can GTFO if you're not going to be constructive like everyone else on this thread is being (and yes, even the ones who think I should rehome her are at least saying so in a non-dickish way).


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

So if I have this right and any if what others in Willow's history are being truthful she has spent a good amount of time with her litter mates who bullied her and then got her pregnant with a difficult delivery. I'm not surprised Willow has dog aggression at this point.
Sounds like she has never had a positive relationship with other dogs. Knowing that gives perspective to her personality. 
It's going to be a good amount of work but I don't think Willow is hopeless. It boils down to if you want to/can put the time in and do the work it's going to take to get her to where she can be a happy dog and enjoy life with her human and her human with her. 
The question is: Is that you or another home? That is a decision for you to make not all of us here.
Another question I have and I don't ask this in a judging way more of a you should reflect question. Is a dog really right for you at this time or at all. I only ask because you said you tried a puppy and nearly had a break down in a week. What happened...did you rehome the puppy? Asking sincerely. Now you have Willow that isn't meeting your expectation of the perfect dog you have in your mind and your a mess about it. Granted her issues are outside the generally perceived norm. Please don't think I'm trying to be mean or hard. Dogs or pets in general are not for everyone. People sometimes think a pet is the what they want only to find out it's not doable for them and that's ok too.
My 29 year old daughter grow up with dogs. She loves our GSD. She enjoys having a dog around and would love to have one. Often looks at adoption sites, breeders, etc. Then I remind of the work they are, the sacrifices that have to be made to have a dog. Lifestyle changes and what if the dog you get doesn't turn out to be the dog you thought you were going to get temperament wise, health wise...then what? She has perspective as our current dog was supposed to be the go everywhere with us dog. She is not that dog. She doesn't travel well. She doesn't eat when we travel. She is a gsd and not welcome in a lot of hotels. We can't board her because well... she won't eat. Plus because of health issues she is raw fed and most places including our vet won't feed her raw. So, we don't go on vacations. We can only make short day trips. When we do travel it's only to see our grown children because they let us bring the dog and deal with her neurotic behaviors. Or we travel separately so someone is home with the dog and that sucks to put it plainly. Our dog has turned out to be nothing of what we wanted or expected. Ultimately in the end my daughter looks reality in the face and rightly comes to the conclusion that now is not the right time for her to have a pet. It wouldn't be fair to her or the pet because if she were to end up with what we have her fun life of travel and spending time with friends would be over and it's not the sacrifice she is willing to make at this point in her life. Yes it's more then possible she could decide to get a pet and it could turn out perfect. But the risk is still there and then the tough choices have to be made. 
Be honest with yourself. Look at what your expectations are, what sacrifices you are willing to make, how much effort are you willing or able to put in to keep Willow or have any pet at this time if things don't meet your expectations.
If you do that you will have the answers to what your next steps are.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Springbrz said:


> So if I have this right and any if what others in Willow's history are being truthful she has spent a good amount of time with her litter mates who bullied her and then got her pregnant with a difficult delivery. I'm not surprised Willow has dog aggression at this point.
> Sounds like she has never had a positive relationship with other dogs. Knowing that gives perspective to her personality.
> It's going to be a good amount of work but I don't think Willow is hopeless. It boils down to if you want to/can put the time in and do the work it's going to take to get her to where she can be a happy dog and enjoy life with her human and her human with her.
> The question is: Is that you or another home? That is a decision for you to make not all of us here.
> ...


Thank you for this. And yes, this is something I struggle with. I waited 2 years between the puppy failure and Willow, and told myself if I got another dog it would really need to be an "easy" dog--a dog without SA, who I could train on obedience but who didn't have aggression issues that would prohibit me from being able to take her to work (since yes, I have a busy 40+hours per-week job that requires me to interact with the public). When I met Willow, she seemed like she would be that easy dog, and the lady who gave her to me even said she thought it'd be great that Willow could go to work with me. 

A lot of my trouble boils down to being single and not having help with this. If Willow were not aggressive, yeah, I could take her to doggy day cares when I needed to or drop her off at a friend's house or have a friend come over to feed/let her out when I had long days. All of that is off the table now, it seems, unless I can fix it (which I'm not expecting to happen overnight but yeah, there are so many suggestions on what to do and how and when, it's a bit overhwelming). 

I've already told myself that if I cannot make it work with Willow, I will not try to have another dog again. Period. Which sucks; yes I have met some fabulous cats and would do a cat except I'm allergic to them. Part of me thinks it shouldn't be this hard and that I've just had a string of bad luck. The puppy thing was my fault; I did not do enough research to know how much work it would be and that it would not be compatible with my busy schedule. But I had every reason to believe Willow would be a great fit for my lifestyle and it's just not turning out that way at all. And yeah, after 3 failures (the first being the 2-year-old stray border collie who turned out to have horrible SA), I don't want to try and fail again.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

banzai555 said:


> Thank you for this. And yes, this is something I struggle with. I waited 2 years between the puppy failure and Willow, and told myself if I got another dog it would really need to be an "easy" dog--a dog without SA, who I could train on obedience but who didn't have aggression issues that would prohibit me from being able to take her to work (since yes, I have a busy 40+hours per-week job that requires me to interact with the public). When I met Willow, she seemed like she would be that easy dog, and the lady who gave her to me even said she thought it'd be great that Willow could go to work with me.
> 
> A lot of my trouble boils down to being single and not having help with this. If Willow were not aggressive, yeah, I could take her to doggy day cares when I needed to or drop her off at a friend's house or have a friend come over to feed/let her out when I had long days. All of that is off the table now, it seems, unless I can fix it (which I'm not expecting to happen overnight but yeah, there are so many suggestions on what to do and how and when, it's a bit overhwelming).
> 
> I've already told myself that if I cannot make it work with Willow, I will not try to have another dog again. Period. Which sucks; yes I have met some fabulous cats and would do a cat except I'm allergic to them. Part of me thinks it shouldn't be this hard and that I've just had a string of bad luck. The puppy thing was my fault; I did not do enough research to know how much work it would be and that it would not be compatible with my busy schedule. But I had every reason to believe Willow would be a great fit for my lifestyle and it's just not turning out that way at all. And yeah, after 3 failures (the first being the 2-year-old stray border collie who turned out to have horrible SA), I don't want to try and fail again.



I personally wouldn't view it as failing. It's extremely important to find a dog that suits your lifestyle and that you will be happy having. I've had several dogs that just did not match up and have made me far more picky on what I'm wanting in any dogs I get. 

When I got my 4 year old dog I was living at home and so had the support to raise a puppy. She ended up with some fear issues which make sense now that I've learned so much more about dogs. She just has slightly weaker nerves only in regards to people and that's something I've done a lot of work on. However it made me realize I don't want another dog like that. Obviously I'm not going to rehome her as I love her and can easily manage it. But I'll avoid it in any future dogs.

I didn't really want to get a puppy but I did end up trying one out. It immediately became clear he was in no way going to work out. He was already showing a variety of problems that would need managed that I just can't do at this point in my life and living situation. 

I tried a year old male lab, it was also pretty clear he wasn't a good fit. But I got some basic obedience on him and adjusted him to indoor life and found him a great home. 

Another dog I had on a trial run from a shelter to see how she would do. She tried to attack one of our cats and didn't like the other dogs so she went back to the shelter. Although she had bonded to me already I had a commitment to the animals I already had. 

Another 7-8 month old puppy ended up passing away, but in the short time we had him he had crazy separation anxiety and made it a no go to deal with in the future on my list.

One dog we had was attacked by another and became extremely fearful and dog reactive. This put me off any dog aggression to the extreme. 

The puppy and lab examples made me think I just shouldn't get another dog and maybe just not get another once my current passes. But the urge to get another was still strong and I decided I needed to just be more selective and not get into puppy fever which I'm bad about. I ended up finding great puppy/young dog that is fitting in wonderfully. 

So sometimes you will have dogs that don't work out. That doesn't mean you aren't cut out for owning dogs but it does mean that you and that dog just weren't a good fit. And in some cases you can work through it and keep the dog or sometimes it's better to rehome. But it doesn't mean you fail at owning dogs, or even that you failed those dogs. Those dogs that didn't work out for me, I was able to find them exactly what they and the owner looking for a dog needed. It's a good feeling even if I wasn't happy and felt horrible that they didn't work out. 

If you're willing to learn(which you certainly seem to be) and put in the work then you very well may be able to get her to a point you're happy with. It may just take time. Writing down regularly improvements can make you see minor changes even if it feels like you aren't getting anywhere. Celebrate the small stuff.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> It's possible none of this was really aggression at all. You said she bites you when she is "all worked up" playing. So she lacks boundaries about her mouth...should have learned no mouthing as a pup.
> 
> I have a dog who used to air snap when I would reach for a toy to throw. Same dog sometimes will mouth at the pocket of my training vest while heeling if he gets too ramped. It's not aggression. With him it's more like a reflexive response to overstimulation. I just mark it as unacceptable for him....also work on over all stimulation levels... cease training/engaging for a minute if it happens. He is a soft dog who really really wants to please.
> 
> ...


Never mind...i forgot what dog this was, forgot all the history behind it. 

When I was reading back over the other threads the most common theme seemed to be owner's irritation at all the dog's issues. And that the dog was clearly scared of you at first when you were losing your patience with her. You said she was yelping and acting terrified when you lost your patience with her.

I really don't mean this to be critical...because even I have been recently guilty of getting annoyed at one of my dogs for something I thought should be a non issue....I didn't want to deal with it, and my irritation and lack of patience made it 1000% worse. I saw that his perception of my attitude toward hin was really poisoning the well and I had to change it completely if there was going to be progress. I was able to fake it and wouldn't you know, huge results. It is such a minor thing now that it wouldn't annoy be anyway but I just had to accept that's his reality and meet him where he is. 

So please take this in the least judgemental way possible but if you can't bring yourself to a place of better compassion for your dog then maybe you really should rehome her. You've apparently been very annoyed, impatient, and ticked off with lots of different things with this dog and she absolutely knows it. You're developing an adversarial relationship with an insecure, terrified dog who needs huge trust in a trustworthy leader.

In the end my loving and patient attitude was what turned things around for us. That, and perseverance. 

Love won't fix a dog's temperament issues, nothing will but good training will help a lot, but a constant negative frame of mind and, judgement and losing your patience and losing your temper will certainly damage the bond a make it impossible for a trusting relationship

If you can't change your attitude about it I doubt very seriously you will ever have meaningful progress with the dog.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> Thank you for this. And yes, this is something I struggle with. I waited 2 years between the puppy failure and Willow, and told myself if I got another dog it would really need to be an "easy" dog--a dog without SA, who I could train on obedience but who didn't have aggression issues that would prohibit me from being able to take her to work (since yes, I have a busy 40+hours per-week job that requires me to interact with the public). When I met Willow, she seemed like she would be that easy dog, and the lady who gave her to me even said she thought it'd be great that Willow could go to work with me.
> 
> A lot of my trouble boils down to being single and not having help with this. If Willow were not aggressive, yeah, I could take her to doggy day cares when I needed to or drop her off at a friend's house or have a friend come over to feed/let her out when I had long days. All of that is off the table now, it seems, unless I can fix it (which I'm not expecting to happen overnight but yeah, there are so many suggestions on what to do and how and when, it's a bit overhwelming).
> 
> I've already told myself that if I cannot make it work with Willow, I will not try to have another dog again. Period. Which sucks; yes I have met some fabulous cats and would do a cat except I'm allergic to them. Part of me thinks it shouldn't be this hard and that I've just had a string of bad luck. The puppy thing was my fault; I did not do enough research to know how much work it would be and that it would not be compatible with my busy schedule. But I had every reason to believe Willow would be a great fit for my lifestyle and it's just not turning out that way at all. And yeah, after 3 failures (the first being the 2-year-old stray border collie who turned out to have horrible SA), I don't want to try and fail again.


I understand and I feel for you and Willow. It's unfortunate for you and Willow that it appears previous owners were way less than honest about her temperament. Lie and unload the problem on someone else. It was unfair to both of you. At this point choices have to be made. Only you can make them. I only ask that if you choose to rehome Willow that you be totally honest with adopters that she has issue. Issues that likely can be managed but you don't have the time or means to work on. 
On the flip side if you decide to give you and Willow a chance and work through her problems you may find out she is the great dog you were looking for and needed. 
I've been honest that my girl did not turn out to be what I wanted or was looking for. Heck getting a GSD was all my husband not me. That said: With all her faults and health issues that break the bank I love her to death and she brings us great joy. Did we get what we were looking for in this dog. NOPE. But I believe all things happen for a reason whether we see the reason clearly or not. Giving Ziva up wasn't an option for us because that is who we are and the choice "we" made. But there are times (many actually) that I wonder what the last 6.5 years would have been like if we had sent her back or given her up. Different on soooo many levels. End of the day it comes down to this: I have a husband to help, I don't work so I have the time and most of all I'm as stubborn as they come and I'll put up a good fight even when I know I should just give it up. I'm a Taurus what can I say...
Ziva can be the biggest PITA and at the same time is the best cuddle bug and needs me to hold her paw while she naps with head on my lap. Who can say no to that. She will likely will be our last dog though. I Know I don't want to go through this again. 

What ever you decide...best to you and Willow!


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Springbrz said:


> I understand and I feel for you and Willow. It's unfortunate for you and Willow that it appears previous owners were way less than honest about her temperament. Lie and unload the problem on someone else. It was unfair to both of you. At this point choices have to be made. Only you can make them. I only ask that if you choose to rehome Willow that you be totally honest with adopters that she has issue. Issues that likely can be managed but you don't have the time or means to work on.
> On the flip side if you decide to give you and Willow a chance and work through her problems you may find out she is the great dog you were looking for and needed.
> I've been honest that my girl did not turn out to be what I wanted or was looking for. Heck getting a GSD was all my husband not me. That said: With all her faults and health issues that break the bank I love her to death and she brings us great joy. Did we get what we were looking for in this dog. NOPE. But I believe all things happen for a reason whether we see the reason clearly or not. Giving Ziva up wasn't an option for us because that is who we are and the choice "we" made. But there are times (many actually) that I wonder what the last 6.5 years would have been like if we had sent her back or given her up. Different on soooo many levels. End of the day it comes down to this: I have a husband to help, I don't work so I have the time and most of all I'm as stubborn as they come and I'll put up a good fight even when I know I should just give it up. I'm a Taurus what can I say...
> Ziva can be the biggest PITA and at the same time is the best cuddle bug and needs me to hold her paw while she naps with head on my lap. Who can say no to that. She will likely will be our last dog though. I Know I don't want to go through this again.
> ...


Thanks...we'll see. Also, Tauruses UNITE


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

SeniorGSD said:


> I’m surprised at the number of people telling the OP that she can work through this. Am I the only one that sees what a horrible match this is? What horrible lack of planning happened on OP’s part? You can’t adopt a dog and expect it to just fall in line. You can’t get hysterical every time the dog does something you don’t like. You don’t have the time to get her comfortable enough to take her to another new environment that is heavy on people and possibly animal traffic before you start there next week. You work long hours and have little patience for the needs of this particular dog. If you couldn’t handle a puppy, you certainly can’t handle a fear aggressive German Shepherd. In many ways they are more needy then puppies.
> 
> Rehome the dog and get a cat.


I think you are overreacting. Sometimes on these forums people jump to a strong conclusion based on limited information. 10-20 posts by the OP certainly can't lead to a conclusion that it's a bad fit. You have to understand that these here forums is a small sample set of GSD owners that are very experienced. The rest of the folks out there get a GSD not understanding how the breed works and responds, that's ok with me as long as they do some homework. Most people aren't looking for a GSD to be their support system or for it to stand on it's head doing show tricks. They just want it to behave and fall in line. This is absolutely fixable. Sure the fit isn't always right. My ex wife kept my last GSD in the divorce and it ruled the roost after I left. She has much less motivation than the OP here and you know what? She still loved the dog and he loved her back. I just don't get how people can say things with so much conviction here based on an internet post. She has had the dog for two freakin months and it was neutered during that time.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Ugh. I hate this. I've had this bad feeling in my chest all day while I was at work, and I came home and let her out of her crate and played with her but things just feel....different. Like I've checked out, signed off, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm hoping this is residual crap from yesterday (yesterday was a bad bad day) but man this sucks. And I know Willow can sense it; she's whining more than usual and acts like she's not sure what to do anymore, with me. 

I hate this, I hate what this has become, I feel we had a good relationship and now it's going to crap and it's all because of me. This poor dog deserves better. 

My friend's wife is a dog trainer and offered to give me a free consult in about an hour, so we'll do that I guess, and hopefully she can help me come to a decision.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Ugh. I hate this. I've had this bad feeling in my chest all day while I was at work, and I came home and let her out of her crate and played with her but things just feel....different. Like I've checked out, signed off, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm hoping this is residual crap from yesterday (yesterday was a bad bad day) but man this sucks. And I know Willow can sense it; she's whining more than usual and acts like she's not sure what to do anymore, with me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good luck. In the end only you can make the decision. Getting a trainer or advice from a trainer is a major step.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

banzai555 said:


> My friend's wife is a dog trainer and offered to give me a free consult in about an hour, so we'll do that I guess, and hopefully she can help me come to a decision.


good, someone who can watch what is going on from an outside perspective can be very helpful. Although I prefer to teach with reward based training, I hope this trainer also uses correct consequences to help teach the dog, "don't do this, do this other thing instead". 

Sometimes just a few simple changes can make a huge difference.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

car2ner said:


> good, someone who can watch what is going on from an outside perspective can be very helpful. Although I prefer to teach with reward based training, I hope this trainer also uses correct consequences to help teach the dog, "don't do this, do this other thing instead".
> 
> Sometimes just a few simple changes can make a huge difference.


Hey all. Thank you again for your advice and support. I met with the trainer and she happens to specialize in GSDs; she has trained service dogs and owns a GSD and a malinois, and yeah, just happens to live here now because her husband is a scientist at the local NIH lab (Hamilton is a weird town...). 

I feel sooooooo much better having met with her. She uses prong and e-collars but also positive training, I guess that's a "balanced" trainer? And she basically told me I'm doing fine. I "hired" her as my trainer and she thinks Willow really isn't that bad, that we should do a few sessions, see how bad her reactivity is, and then we can decide if she will fit with me or not. Willow was of course a perfect angel during the ~hourlong consult, showed some stuff that the trainer diagnosed as just frustration and temper tantrums but she really didn't show any fear OR aggression during the consult; in fact she seemed to love the trainer like she was her person right from the get-go. 

Honestly, I felt such a load off after that, came home and played with Willow and I think she could feel it too. I think most of my angst has been because I'm overwhelmed with advice and my response has been "well crap, I don't know what the heck I'm doing and don't know how to process all this conflicting information so I should just give up". So...I may be a bit more scarce on here after this, I don't think it's really helping my mental health. I do appreciate that you all took time out of your lives to give me feedback, and I really a hoping for the best and that Willow will work out just fine.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Good decision!Concentrate on Willow with the hands on help and we'd love an occasional update


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## January (Sep 15, 2019)

Love this update. Good for you. The internet can be such a double edged sword. Wishing all the best to you and your girl ?


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## CAROLINM (Mar 30, 2018)

banzai555 said:


> Ugh. I hate this. I've had this bad feeling in my chest all day while I was at work, and I came home and let her out of her crate and played with her but things just feel....different. Like I've checked out, signed off, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm hoping this is residual crap from yesterday (yesterday was a bad bad day) but man this sucks. And I know Willow can sense it; she's whining more than usual and acts like she's not sure what to do anymore, with me.
> 
> I hate this, I hate what this has become, I feel we had a good relationship and now it's going to crap and it's all because of me. This poor dog deserves better.
> 
> My friend's wife is a dog trainer and offered to give me a free consult in about an hour, so we'll do that I guess, and hopefully she can help me come to a decision.



Not sure how I miss this thread before. 
I have a reactive dog. He got reactive for many reasons (he is fear reactive not usually fear aggressive), when I think back on our days, honestly, there were things that I could have either done or avoided (Like our first trainer). 

My dog is around 19 or 20 months. We have had our ups and downs, but I love that little jerk. Seriously, I love that dog to the core. He is probably around 100 to 105lb (just muscle, not a fat dog). So, for me and my sister, he can be a challenge with a regular flat collar when he is reacting, but honestly, tools are life savers. We have conditioned for the muzzle, for the prong and for the e-collar (last one within the last week). 

Our second trainer has given us hope. He is not a methodical guy, he is unorthodox. He is not a rule keeper and sometimes I disagree with his ideas. Yet, he has understood my dog, in ways no one else before, and unlike his first trainer, he has really tried to bond and have a good relationship with him. We do sometimes private sessions, and some other times, group sessions. We actually have 2 or 3 group sessions per week, one for large dogs, one for all dogs, and one is a pack walk through downtown. 

I usually keep thinking that sometimes things are my fault, things that make him fail. Because that's how it is. The times he has failed, I failed to see what he was feeling, or I decided to force things that he was not ready for. 
Either way, his reactivity and even aggression towards either people or dogs, are something manageable. I know that, we have had awesome times, he went to the state fair back in May, he has been to pet friendly coffee shops, he went with us traveling to the US (I am Mexican), he adores having fetch games with other dogs. He is an amazing dog. He is not defined by our issues with reactivity/aggression. He is the amazing dog that licks our faces when we fall sleep in the couch, the dog that plays board games with my 10 year old sister, and that sleeps close to the desk. 

Have some faith on the dog, find yourself a good trainer. These are not crazy dangerous dogs, they are just scared of the world, they are socially challenged.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Liking carol m post/ Max does not like other dogs -a trouble maker- I take him places and if there are other dogs we don’t mingle with them . I never had a dog that wanted to play with other dogs. My last gsd liked to throw his big head over peoples dogs heads if there was any interaction at all. Max I had to teach him to ignore dogs around me. My enjoyment with the dogs is at beaches , people hiking parks , dog friendly shops, bike rides , walks , family gatherings like all the dogs I ever owned. We have not skipped a beat.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm so happy to hear that you were able to find a breed savvy balanced trainer to see in person what is going on between you and Willow. Thank you for sharing the positive update. Hope to see you around with updates from time to time even if it's just to post pictures because we love pictures 
Good Luck to you and Willow! Wishing you a very happy future together!


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Great news! It may seem like there is conflicting advice, and there are some alternative views (and a view from a troll now banned), BUT there really is a lot of consistency in what a lot us are saying. 

Given that she responded well to the trainer definitely points the finger in your direction. Work on some of the stuff we have mentioned in terms of your body language, etc. but it is awesome you have a trainer to point out to you how to approach things.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> Great news! It may seem like there is conflicting advice, and there are some alternative views (and a view from a troll now banned), BUT there really is a lot of consistency in what a lot us are saying.
> 
> Given that she responded well to the trainer definitely points the finger in your direction. Work on some of the stuff we have mentioned in terms of your body language, etc. but it is awesome you have a trainer to point out to you how to approach things.


Granted the trainer didn't see her react (yet), and she said that seeing that will probably dictate how much work she needs. And she's a trainer (duh) so she knew not to pay any attention to Willow when I brought her out of the car, and she had treats in her pocket....So hey, it's not all my fault! But if it turns out that this barking/lunging isn't actually fear aggression (or not ALL fear aggression), that makes me feel a whole lot better and yeah, will help me feel less anxious.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Cool update, good for you finding a trainer to work with you hands on. Willow never sounded that bad to me (I've seen far worse)- with a bit of guidance, I think you'll be fine.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

This is good progress. I'm so happy for you. I know it's a lot of opinions but we're all (or at least a large majority) rooting for you and Willow. 

It sounds like you've found a trainer you feel you can trust. But more importantly, it sounds like the trainer has made you feel more confident in yourself and Willow. That confidence and trust is just as important as any tricks and tips.

Good luck! And be sure to at least drop by for pic updates ☺


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

nice !


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Keep this in the back of your mind....

You have to be what you want the dog to be. If you are conflicted, fearful, confused and frustrated that is what you are going to get out of the dog.

You can't lie to a dog. You can't fake it. They KNOW how you feel by your posture, smell and actions. They communicate non-verbally and have for hundreds of generations. They are way better at it than us talkers.

The reason the dog was at ease with the trainer is because the trainer was at ease and confident. Treats help, but an uncomfortable dog won't even eat.

By the way, this is the most difficult thing to get new handlers / owners / trainers to do.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Granted the trainer didn't see her react (yet), and she said that seeing that will probably dictate how much work she needs. And she's a trainer (duh) so she knew not to pay any attention to Willow when I brought her out of the car, and she had treats in her pocket....So hey, it's not all my fault! But if it turns out that this barking/lunging isn't actually fear aggression (or not ALL fear aggression), that makes me feel a whole lot better and yeah, will help me feel less anxious.


There is a reason she was so well hehaved around an experienced trainer who knows how to act around a dog and a GSD. It's all about that body language I referenced and others. David is spot on, act the way you want the dog to act. Display confidence when you handle her and let her know you are the boss, not her. I am so glad you feel better! I am pulling for you. It's not overnight, you will have set backs, don't dwell and lose confidence in yourself or the dog, learn and correct. Recycle those episodes in your mind and then precycle the situation before you attempt a re-do (I'm a Hoffman grad if anyone gets the precycle/recycle).

She may not have fear aggression in the traditional sense that my last dog had it. She may have fear because you have fear when she lunges and barks. She may have aggression when she is anxious because you are anxious. It's absolutely crazy how much transference there is with GSD's and owners. It is SO rewarding when the transference is what you want. It's so worth the effort to get it right, you will end up with a pet you will be so proud of and in love with.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Fear aggression is a big catch-all term. I have a dog who would bark at strangers (if I let her) just because it's fun. Think about how easy it is to teach most schutzhund dogs to bark at the helper... easy peasy. Same idea, for some dogs when it comes to behaviors you don't want out and about. It's a nice behavior to have on command, in case you are threatened. But sometimes people new to working dogs are wondering 'why my dogs does...' well, look at what they were bred for... on the plus they are also bred to be very biddable and work closely with the handler. So that is in your favor.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Great that you found a good trainer who really understands GSDs! 

Thanks for keeping us updated.

Yes all the terms get confusing, like "fear aggression" vs "reactive" ... (I think "reactive" is probably more common...)
anyway, good luck!!


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## Jonie binzer (May 16, 2019)

*Barking*

Hi my Moonie is 3 I can't stop her from barking at everything when I put her outside she barks and in the house she sees someone past or hears a weird noise she barks it drives me crazy how can I get her to stop so I can open my windows and blinds with out going crazy also the jumping on people and me when you walk up to her I need that to stop please help


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Jonie binzer said:


> Hi my Moonie is 3 I can't stop her from barking at everything when I put her outside she barks and in the house she sees someone past or hears a weird noise she barks it drives me crazy how can I get her to stop so I can open my windows and blinds with out going crazy also the jumping on people and me when you walk up to her I need that to stop please help




Barking, reward for not barking, not likely to work but worth a shot. E-collar (bark detector) or prong collar to correct while doing it. Bark correction should really start early/

Jumping up is all training to not do. The example I give - while I am cooking my pup just is dying to jump up on the counter. When he is sitting and watching me and behaving, I treat him. Does he know he is getting a treat for not jumping? Nope. But he does say to himself, hey, he is cooking and the last time I sat here, I got a treat and he made such a big positive deal out of it.

Cute dog!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I control both behaviors through OB training. Dog can't jump if it's in a sot or down. I train dogs to bark (speak) so I can then train a quiet command. I put both behaviors on cue and reward both so there is less self rewarding out of the barking. Also, if the dog is barking out the window or something, a crate or place command removes the dog from the stimulus and lowers the chance that the dog will continue to bark.

It's WAY easier to train a dog to do an alternate behavior than to extinguish a self rewarding behavior that is also natural instinct, like barking.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Jonie binzer said:


> Hi my Moonie is 3 I can't stop her from barking at everything when I put her outside she barks and in the house she sees someone past or hears a weird noise she barks it drives me crazy how can I get her to stop so I can open my windows and blinds with out going crazy also the jumping on people and me when you walk up to her I need that to stop please help


Looks like she is tethered outside. If true, it's the best way to get them to bark from boredom.


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## magnusss (Oct 18, 2019)

It's normal for a dog to bark at strangers, but we also need to teach them not be aggressive. My dog doesn't bark at people that are frequently visiting my place because he knew them well. But if he or she's someone new to my place, he barks but as time passes by, he stops after getting to know with that person.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Jonie Binzer, your dog is a dog derived from sheep herding dogs, and selectively bred for their intelligence, energy, drive, protective and guarding qualities, as well as their willingness to work with humans, alongside humans, and their ability to learn quickly and be obedient. 

Why does this matter? Because you have a dog that should be running along side you hearding 2-3 hundred sheep for 12-14 hours -- that is the kind of energy and drive she is bred for. She had the intelligence to protect a farm or a factory or to walk alongside a soldier or police officer and seek out bombs or drugs or bad guys. That is the kind of intelligence she has. What are YOU doing for her? 

Of course you have a dog that is strong, energetic, full of energy, full of intelligence, full of an intense desire for companionship -- how are you meeting these needs? 

Of course most of us are not shepherds or soldiers, and most GSDs can survive on less than full-time work, but they are not a dog that can be easily regulated to a back yard by themselves. How often is she inside or meeting people is not really the question. The question is more how are you connecting with her when you are with her? 

Training is the big bond-builder. You have to do it right. This thread suggests that you are pointing out all the negatives and want to eliminate them. And, unfortunately, you will find a lot of trainers who will equip you with gadgets that will deter your dog from behaviors you do not want. And, unfortunately some of them will work. 

The answer is not to strap an e-collar on your bitch and the moment she barks at the window zap her good. It will probably work. But it does nothing to deal with the problem, the real problem. 

You are experiencing boredom and unhappiness and lack of bonding, lack of communication between you and your dog -- another name for training. An e-collar will do no better than a huge stick at connecting you with your dog.

When a dog barks at the window, you think oh, she's barking, that needs to stop. Wait, that is what she is bred to do, to alert at something out of the ordinary, maybe I don't want to stop her from all further alerts. But it is annoying for her to bark at everything, or to continue barking. 

You need to outwit the dog. You need to get up off your butt and go to the window, and say, "It's a neighbor, thank you, Enough." Of course you have to train the dog what "Enough" or "Quiet" means. But at the same time, you need to train your dog so that your dog has a life. So that she has a life connecting with you. You need to get out there every day and work with your dog, until the two of you know what the other is going to do, and how to communicate what you want her to do. 

You can start this by taking her to classes. Once a week take her to class. Practice the stuff with her, use a lot of praise and a lot of treats. She's an ornament to your life, but you are her whole life. You have work, and friends, and kids maybe, and chores around the house, and hobbies. She has you. She needs you. I think you need to rearrange some of your priorities to put he in a more prominent position in your life. 

I am a breeder and I've had as many as 22 dogs, regulars at one time. That's a lot of dogs, and they never feel entirely alone because they are always at least near another dog. But, I can't possibly give 22 dogs the same individual attention that an average pet owner can give. I only have 11 regulars right now, and that's a lot easier. I did have a bitch that was not doing well out back with the others. I knew this by the way I related to her. She frustrated me. She jumped up on the gate, in the puddle and got yuck in my eye, and it would infuriate me. She would walk in her poop when I was trying to pick it up and I had no patience. One day, I stopped and said, this isn't her, it's me. 

I had to think about it, how to fix it. Lassie was a nice dog. She needed more than I was giving her. For most of the others, the situation was fine, but for her it just wasn't. So I moved her to the front kennel, and I made it my business to spend time training her at least three times a week. I had her in with a young male and at least twice, every day, I spent time talking with her. That doesn't sound like much. But it worked. The following year when I had puppies, I had to move her back with her young male into a double kennel for the two of them, but the bond was now there, and it wasn't a problem being out back with the male. She was now fine. 

Then just the right home presented itself for her. And I let her go. She was just six years old. About a month later, I was at a mutual friends' house and the other people came with Lassie. She saw me, and she rushed over to me, jumped up and loved all over me. Then she turned and ran to her new person, and did that to her. It was so good. That dog loved me. Your dog loves you as a dog can love. But they do not know how to be what we want until we help them get it, until we walk the extra mile with them, even if its raining, or cold, or your tired from work or family problems. 

They love Lassie and she has a great life being the center of the universe with them. She would be just one of mine here, older than the puppies that need the most work and younger than the old ladies who know me inside out and need to go with me to the vet or whatever more often than the others. But the little irritations that I was blowing out of proportion was actually a marker for me to understand that I was not providing for her enough stimulation. When I fixed that, our relationship improved so much that I would have kept her forever, even though she never had puppies. I wasn't looking for a home for her. But I am glad that happened. It was good for them, and good for me, and good for her. 

Good luck with your dog. She can teach you a lot if you let her.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

selzer said:


> Jonie Binzer, your dog is a dog derived from sheep herding dogs, and selectively bred for their intelligence, energy, drive, protective and guarding qualities, as well as their willingness to work with humans, alongside humans, and their ability to learn quickly and be obedient.
> 
> Why does this matter? Because you have a dog that should be running along side you hearding 2-3 hundred sheep for 12-14 hours -- that is the kind of energy and drive she is bred for. She had the intelligence to protect a farm or a factory or to walk alongside a soldier or police officer and seek out bombs or drugs or bad guys. That is the kind of intelligence she has. What are YOU doing for her?
> 
> ...


It is heartfelt, keen observational posts like this that make me really appreciate you Sue! Dogs can adapt, and some are okay with a certain routine. Others, not so much. It's always about the dog in front of you. One has to watch and be attentive, dogs don't "act up" because they're stubborn or willful, they're trying their best to tell you something, but they don't think like we do and they don't have language (thank GOD LOL!).

I've always felt that training, any training at all, is not just good for the dog, it's good for both you and your dog! And I've always found that the more you train a particular dog, the more they understand and the more "in tune" they become! 

When I first came to this site people were, and still do, talk about teaching their dog to look at them. Prior to that I'd honestly never heard of such a thing! But that's because I learned how to make a dog naturally want to focus on me. It's all about motivation and fun and reward for the dog! I see people all the time making the mistake of correcting their dog for "unwanted" behavior, but forgetting to praise and reward their dog for correct behavior or compliance! It's sad!
@Jonie binzer, bring your dog in, spend time just watching the dog and learn what really makes him happy. Train him, play with him, get to know him. The excessive barking will go away.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Can't help but post again....

Things have been SO GOOD this past week. Meeting with the trainer on Monday took such a mental load off, and I think you all were right, my own nervousness/worries were being picked up by Willow. I think I also was giving her too much credit, in the sense that I guess I had these grand plans for her to be my best bud, my compadre, like instantly, and forget that she's A DOG. 

Since Monday, her personality has changed...she's more playful, less generally anxious. I swear sometimes she acts like a puppy. I should try to get video of it...I put some broken up Denta Stix in her West Paw puzzle toy thing (similar to a Kong) and gave it to her outside while I worked out, and she had a hard time getting the treats out but watching her try was hilarious. She'd bat it around, pick it up and throw it, then grab it and just start rolling around on the ground (not exactly sure how that's supposed to help her get the treats out but whatever, it was hilarious). She was obviously enjoying herself. 

We're still walking in the mornings and doing short walks in the afternoon, again trying to avoid triggers. I'm trying to be more purposeful and less angry when she does react; making her sit and watch me, rewarding her for non-reactions and when people come into view (far enough away to keep her under threshold), giving her a firm but non-angry "NO" when she does things I don't approve (jumping up, pulling on leash, getting too mouthy during play). I did get a prong collar for the pulling but haven't been using it much. I'm working on teaching a "heel", and "speak" and "quiet", "gentle", "no teeth". I've also been working on teaching her fetch--she chases the ball and comes back to me but doesn't give it up. So I've been using "Drop!" and she's actually getting it, I think, even though she's obviously reluctant to relinquish it. I also bought her a firehose toy and she LOVES that thing. 

Our first official session with the new trainer will be on Tuesday, so I'm looking forward to that. 

OH also....I ended up calling the previous owner and she gave me more information about Willow. Said they were police line dogs, actually. Her sister (who the owner still has) is very aggressive and protective, but she said Willow never acted that way---maybe because she was sorta in constant fear of her sister? But she told me the guy who originally raised her, in OR, was going through some personal stuff and ended up just leaving her in the backyard all the time, so that's confirmation she was never really socialized--sounds like she was pretty much neglected for the first 2 years of her life, before the lady here in MT went and picked her up. (This lady then kept her for a year before rehoming her to me.) She also said that if things don't end up working out over the next couple of months, she'd take her back. She really seemed concerned about Willow's welfare and wants the best for her (and I believe that). Hopefully she'd then rehome her, I'd hate for Willow to go back to being in fear of her sister (but maybe it'll be better now that she's spayed?).


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

@banzai555 I'm going to take the bet that Willow is going to spend the rest of her days with you. The positive steps and attitude change you and Willow have had in just a week of resetting expectations, attitudes and behaviors along with what sounds like a knowledgeable trainer leads me to believe it's going to work out very well. 
I makes me happy to hear such good and positive changes are happening for you both. 
Looking forward to pictures


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

_"Meeting with the trainer on Monday took such a mental load off, and I think you all were right, my own nervousness/worries were being picked up by Willow..."
"Since Monday, her personality has changed...she's more playful, less generally anxious."_

Yes, dogs pick up very well on your mood! Once my dog 'learned' me, he could teach himself behaviors just by observing what makes me happy vs what makes me annoyed...tone of voice, face expression.
Things sound like they're going great. 

That's sad about her past - 
I do think she'd be happiest with you if it works out.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

banzai555 said:


> Can't help but post again....
> 
> Things have been SO GOOD this past week. Meeting with the trainer on Monday took such a mental load off, and I think you all were right, my own nervousness/worries were being picked up by Willow. I think I also was giving her too much credit, in the sense that I guess I had these grand plans for her to be my best bud, my compadre, like instantly, and forget that she's A DOG.
> 
> ...



I love your post. There is incredible hope in it. You are playing with her, and she is responding. I can smell a happy ending. 

It's good to know where our dogs come from and who they are genetically, but it is also important to understand that they live in the moment. So, never ever give your dog a free pass because she's had a rough start or whatever. Treat her as normal as possible, not putting up with things you do not want because of what happened to her in the past -- I am not saying you are making this mistake, but a lot of people do. 

But I love that you are already seeing a change in her, and you are connecting with her.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I take videos of myself and my dogs when I go out to "train". It helps me see my mistakes in body posture, timing, etc. I only share the ones that I think show reality. I am not shy about my mistakes and I hope they show improvement over time although I don't expose folks to the days I am a hot mess. 

If you take a short vid and feel halfway good about it, would you mind sharing? It is encouraging to see progress in human / dog teams.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This is a great update. I love that you are connecting with her and enjoying her. I think you'll be OK. We do not all come into dogs knowing exactly what to do- sometimes we need a little help.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

car2ner said:


> I take videos of myself and my dogs when I go out to "train". It helps me see my mistakes in body posture, timing, etc. I only share the ones that I think show reality. I am not shy about my mistakes and I hope they show improvement over time although I don't expose folks to the days I am a hot mess.
> 
> If you take a short vid and feel halfway good about it, would you mind sharing? It is encouraging to see progress in human / dog teams.


I'll try, haha. I have no idea what the trainer has in store for us but she may end up doing some videos, who knows. 

Minor setback this morning....was doing just fine, had her on the leash in the park on a cold Saturday morning when nobody was out, but right on our home stretch a guy came through with his GSD off leash. I stepped as far off the trail as I could and put Willow in a sit, but.... it was a friendly enough GSD, but it was really hard to get Willow to sit and pay attention to me when the other dog was all up in her space wanting to check her out. And then of course the owner walked past, I had time to tell him Willow was probably going to bark at him, and of course, she did. I had the prong collar on her so it wasn't as bad a reaction as usual, but it still happened and it still discouraged me. But then I got over it and we went on our way. 

Hoping the trainer will tell me what I should do in those situations....continue walking with the prong? Correct her? I dunno. Can't wait to find out!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> I'll try, haha. I have no idea what the trainer has in store for us but she may end up doing some videos, who knows.
> 
> Minor setback this morning....was doing just fine, had her on the leash in the park on a cold Saturday morning when nobody was out, but right on our home stretch a guy came through with his GSD off leash. I stepped as far off the trail as I could and put Willow in a sit, but.... it was a friendly enough GSD, but it was really hard to get Willow to sit and pay attention to me when the other dog was all up in her space wanting to check her out. And then of course the owner walked past, I had time to tell him Willow was probably going to bark at him, and of course, she did. I had the prong collar on her so it wasn't as bad a reaction as usual, but it still happened and it still discouraged me. But then I got over it and we went on our way.
> 
> Hoping the trainer will tell me what I should do in those situations....continue walking with the prong? Correct her? I dunno. Can't wait to find out!


Once the other dog has the ability to make contact, don't try to push Willow into any obedience. You may get bit again. Look for a calm way to treat a friendly dog as no big deal. Something like calmly going towards the other owner with both dogs, you have to judge whats going on and see what you're comfortable with. I'm not saying you should do this, but I generally pet the other dogs. In general, I don't have a set plan. It all depends on the other dog and owner.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

banzai555 said:


> I'll try, haha. I have no idea what the trainer has in store for us but she may end up doing some videos, who knows.
> 
> Minor setback this morning....was doing just fine, had her on the leash in the park on a cold Saturday morning when nobody was out, but right on our home stretch a guy came through with his GSD off leash. I stepped as far off the trail as I could and put Willow in a sit, but.... it was a friendly enough GSD, but it was really hard to get Willow to sit and pay attention to me when the other dog was all up in her space wanting to check her out. And then of course the owner walked past, I had time to tell him Willow was probably going to bark at him, and of course, she did. I had the prong collar on her so it wasn't as bad a reaction as usual, but it still happened and it still discouraged me. But then I got over it and we went on our way.
> 
> Hoping the trainer will tell me what I should do in those situations....continue walking with the prong? Correct her? I dunno. Can't wait to find out!


For me it depends on the trail. 

On a narrow trail with dogs on leash or just people I step off the trail. With dogs offleash I just keep walking because I don't want there to be a big interaction. If I need to walk off the trail slightly I will. Or I'll turn my body so I'm inbetween them and the trail and whoever is on it. The sooner we pass each other the sooner it's over. If the trail is big enough I just keep Codi close and keep on walking. The goal for me is to keep her busy so she doesn't have time to react. I make her keep walking and don't let her turn back once they pass or go towards them before we pass.

Codi never bit or tried to but she does have fear issues and would bark. So I didn't panic or anything but just kept walking because just sitting there did nothing at first for stopping her from reacting. Continuing walking and not allowing her to focus on anybody, keeping her in a heel position was much more effective. I can now take her into a store and have her sit or lay down with no issues towards reacting towards people. But it took time and not giving her a chance to react. 

I personally don't allow my dogs to interact on leash with other dogs when we're out on walks.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. My Shelby is high content GSD. Got her as an 8 week old shelter pup. Shelby is a special cupcake. She likes her safe places, which are - her house, her yard, and her car. Shelby does not like to go for walks. She barks at people, constantly looks over her shoulder, and rushes to get back home. Fortunately, she is fearful, but not fear aggressive.
> 
> Shelby is 5 years old now. You have not had your dog very long. You do not know each other very well. Really up the obedience. Not only will you tire your dog mentally, you will help to build the bond. Teach your dog to look to you. Seriously, I worked on having Shelby make eye contact with me. Use hand signs more and talk less. Stay home with your dog. I'm not sure being out and about on narrow trails, especially while she is recovering from surgery is the best idea.
> 
> ...


Ingenious set up !


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

banzai555 said:


> Minor setback this morning....was doing just fine, had her on the leash in the park on a cold Saturday morning when nobody was out, but right on our home stretch a guy came through with his GSD off leash. I stepped as far off the trail as I could and put Willow in a sit, but.... it was a friendly enough GSD, but it was really hard to get Willow to sit and pay attention to me when the other dog was all up in her space wanting to check her out. And then of course the owner walked past, I had time to tell him Willow was probably going to bark at him, and of course, she did. I had the prong collar on her so it wasn't as bad a reaction as usual, but it still happened and it still discouraged me. But then I got over it and we went on our way.
> 
> Hoping the trainer will tell me what I should do in those situations....continue walking with the prong? Correct her? I dunno. Can't wait to find out!


Yes, I remember that feeling..."Oh (insert curse word here)!" when we came up the trail and another dog/owner were walking towards us. If it is a typical onleash duo, what helped my dog was his commands which boiled down to a Look At Me and a Heel. If they are glancing at you occasionally and heeling, that takes care of the intense focus/stare and the lunging. So you are saying, "I don't want you to stare at that other dog and lunge at him/her, what I want you do is stay by me , and pay attention to what I'm telling you to do!" 

For *offleash* dogs...well, 99% of those are not under the control of their owner. Usually a meeting is just inevitable, they will run to your dog even with their owner hollering their name. In that case, I give my dog a loose leash. They will sniff faces, then pull up alongside and maybe sniff private parts, and then I will urge my dog to walk on. Usually the other dog will then run back to its owner. The offleash dogs on trails around here tend not to be tense or hostile (maybe because they're offleash and they can run away if they don't like your dog).

We've been attacked by offleash dogs in our own neighborhood. I carry citronella spray, but my dog is faster - he meets them head on with bared teeth and fends them off. He is bigger than most other dogs and has his thick neck ruff, so hasn't been hurt yet.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

GSDchoice said:


> Yes, I remember that feeling..."Oh (insert curse word here)!" when we came up the trail and another dog/owner were walking towards us. If it is a typical onleash duo, what helped my dog was his commands which boiled down to a Look At Me and a Heel. If they are glancing at you occasionally and heeling, that takes care of the intense focus/stare and the lunging. So you are saying, "I don't want you to stare at that other dog and lunge at him/her, what I want you do is stay by me , and pay attention to what I'm telling you to do!"
> 
> For *offleash* dogs...well, 99% of those are not under the control of their owner. Usually a meeting is just inevitable, they will run to your dog even with their owner hollering their name. In that case, I give my dog a loose leash. They will sniff faces, then pull up alongside and maybe sniff private parts, and then I will urge my dog to walk on. Usually the other dog will then run back to its owner. The offleash dogs on trails around here tend not to be tense or hostile (maybe because they're offleash and they can run away if they don't like your dog).
> 
> We've been attacked by offleash dogs in our own neighborhood. I carry citronella spray, but my dog is faster - he meets them head on with bared teeth and fends them off. He is bigger than most other dogs and has his thick neck ruff, so hasn't been hurt yet.


Yeah I usually will let Willow sniff and greet the other dogs since she's not dog aggressive---she may bark at dogs, but she plays well with them and has never been aggressive with them as far as I know. But what always happens is she'll greet the other dog, get all excited, then the human will show up and the dog will run off with him, and she barks at the human. I guess what I need to do is just start walking her away after she greets the dog so she can't react to the human, but she almost never gives a warning (goes from friendly greeting dog to barking at the human) so it's hard for me to time it right....


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## bwingler (Sep 9, 2019)

This makes me mad sorry, but people get GSD's and the first thing that goes wrong they want to get rid of them, you want a GSD then spend the money to get them trained if your not capable of training them your self. Even after training you still have to work to reinforce what they learned. And walking that close to other dogs with a GSD with known fear aggersion and letting them off leash is asking for trouble or a law suit.

I had the same problem except never got bit, i sent mine to school she was gone 3 weeks and now totally minds, no shock collars or anything like that, we go to weekly group classes now with other dogs and she does great, it was money well spent and i have a great GSD that goes every where with me.

Just my 2 cents


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Never allow her to sniff and "greet" another dog when either one is leashed. It just causes trouble as you know now. Step in front of her and tell that other dog to "go home" and also do not start a "greeting" with your dog.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

bwingler said:


> This makes me mad sorry, but people get GSD's and the first thing that goes wrong they want to get rid of them, you want a GSD then spend the money to get them trained if your not capable of training them your self. Even after training you still have to work to reinforce what they learned. And walking that close to other dogs with a GSD with known fear aggersion and letting them off leash is asking for trouble or a law suit.
> 
> I had the same problem except never got bit, i sent mine to school she was gone 3 weeks and now totally minds, no shock collars or anything like that, we go to weekly group classes now with other dogs and she does great, it was money well spent and i have a great GSD that goes every where with me.
> 
> Just my 2 cents


Well geesh, I guess I should never ever let myself be lied to by someone I'm RESCUING a GSD from. I would not have adopted her if the previous owner had been honest with me about the amount of work she needed. She is an adult, seemed pretty well trained and completely fine when I met her and did not show aggression until I'd had her for several weeks. 

And did you even read my last post? An unleashed dog came up to US, while my dog was on leash. The only places I let her off leash are places where I'm 100% sure there is nobody else around (currently a new park that is being worked on, that nobody knows about yet, and there's about an acre with great visibility where I can let her run around safely). 

I have not gotten rid of her, by the way. Yes I am keeping that option open if things don't improve after several months of training, because I know with my lifestyle I can't give her what she needs if what she and I need is TONS of work. (and I see she AND I, because yeah, I know my behavior is probably part of the problem and I'm going to try my damnedest.) She's already better and I'm feeling more and more hopeful that she'll stay with me. And of course I try to keep her separated from dogs on leash now--again with the not realizing she would react like this on walks because her previous owner said she was fine. 

We can't all have partners to help us with our dogs, or lots of money, or lots of free time. I made a choice based on what I was told and I am doing my best here.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Most people can't afford what a reputable board and train costs- it's at least $3,000 for a good one for a dog with issues. 

OP- you are doing really well, from what I've read, and you are working with a good trainer. Keep at it, I think you'll be very happy with the end result. Maybe she won't be a dog you just let be on a hike, maybe you call her in to you when you see someone and keep her close until they are passed. Big deal. 

You'll be fine- nobody comes into dogs knowing it all- I'll be the first to admit I didn't, and still don't! As long as you are open to learning and keep at it, and keep everyone safe in the meantime, you're doing fine.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

banzai555 said:


> Yeah I usually will let Willow sniff and greet the other dogs since she's not dog aggressive---she may bark at dogs, but she plays well with them and has never been aggressive with them as far as I know. But what always happens is she'll greet the other dog, get all excited, then the human will show up and the dog will run off with him, and she barks at the human. I guess what I need to do is just start walking her away after she greets the dog so she can't react to the human, but she almost never gives a warning (goes from friendly greeting dog to barking at the human) so it's hard for me to time it right....


Why?
She doesn’t need to sniff and greet strange dogs and get all excited.
She may not be dog aggressive, but you don’t know if the strange dogs she meets are. If some random dog attacks her, what then?
Your goal when out and about is to have a polite, calm GSD that focuses on you and ignores distractions.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Saco said:


> Most people can't afford what a reputable board and train costs- it's at least $3,000 for a good one for a dog with issues.


I was quoted $1800 for three weeks at Ivan Balabanov’s training center. Granted, this was about a year ago. And this doesn’t take into consideration the cost to get your dog there. I’m lucky I’m only a few hours away. 

But your point is taken. Even $1800 is a lot to some people. It can be a struggle to get good training.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

banzai555 said:


> Well geesh, I guess I should never ever let myself be lied to by someone I'm RESCUING a GSD from. I would not have adopted her if the previous owner had been honest with me about the amount of work she needed. She is an adult, seemed pretty well trained and completely fine when I met her and did not show aggression until I'd had her for several weeks.
> 
> And did you even read my last post? An unleashed dog came up to US, while my dog was on leash. The only places I let her off leash are places where I'm 100% sure there is nobody else around (currently a new park that is being worked on, that nobody knows about yet, and there's about an acre with great visibility where I can let her run around safely).
> 
> ...


Oh the adopt-don't-shop stuff kind of burns me up because they don't tell you the rest of the story. Yes, you can get a great pet that has been given up by someone else, and these dogs do need homes. But a lot come with baggage, baggage that doesn't show itself right away. They are shocked to be in the shelter, and then shocked again when moved with you, and it isn't until they start to relax and get comfortable, that the behaviors that got them chucked in the first place start showing up. And yeah, that can be several weeks. 

But the good news is, you have a dog with some quirks, and you are willing to work on those, or MANAGE THEM. You have choices. You need them manage them from the get go, but you can also work on them as you go forward, or just get really good at managing until it is second nature.

I agree that you don't need to and shouldn't allow this dog to sniff another dog. I know this ran up off-lead, and you are going to have to protect your dog from off-lead dogs. If that means carrying an air horn and spraying it toward them to stop them in their tracks. do it. If it means shouting at the owner to GET CHER DOG!!! do that. You have permission to be rude, as rude as they are being and maybe more. Because you are protecting their dog too. So if some one comes up with their totally out of control dog dragging the to yours, while the owner laughs and smiles indulgently and says, "Is he friendly?" Say "No." and move away. Don't wait around to apologize or explain (unless your dog connects with a person). If your dog reacts -- barks at, snarls, puts hair up, take it as you didn't adjust early enough and move in the same direction you were going, quickly with a slight correction or eh-eh and get your dog out of there. Don't worry about nasty looks from people. You are trying to get your dog over this, and the best way is not to let her languish in a bad place, or let her develop ways to get herself out of the situation -- that is your job. She will develop ways you do not like. So, don't worry about being rude, and don't let her behavior turn you around, but do get her out of the situation as quickly as possible, and try to avoid similar situations before she reacts to them. 

Hope that helps.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

How did the session with the Trainer go??

Yes-agreed-inherited quirks with our rescue and had to decide which ones to "train out" and which ones to accept/manage!
Went away on its own with time: Flinching, ducking, extreme velcro behaviors (leaping up to follow me from room to room constantly)
Trained out: Reactivity on leash to other dogs/ runners / cyclists
Accepted/Managed: Will never be a dog that strangers can love on. Will always be aloof and possibly growl/snap if strangers get too "touchy", especially around head. Will always need muzzling for vet and for nail clipping.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

GSDchoice said:


> How did the session with the Trainer go??
> 
> Yes-agreed-inherited quirks with our rescue and had to decide which ones to "train out" and which ones to accept/manage!
> Went away on its own with time: Flinching, ducking, extreme velcro behaviors (leaping up to follow me from room to room constantly)
> ...


Had to cancel because Willow is sick. Has had diarrhea now for 4 going on 5 days and has lost 5 pounds. No vet seems to care. I called our (her) vet again this morning and she said she MAY finally give her some drugs, but yeah, doesn't even want to see her or have me bring in a fecal sample. I honestly wonder if she has worms (I feel like I'm feeding her a lot but she's losing weight and not really pooping anything out except orange mucus). I'm kinda disappointed in the vets I have talked to. Her behavior is normal otherwise and that's why they're all telling me not to worry but...how much weight does she have to lose, how many days does the diarrhea have to go on, before I should worry???

Sorry, this probably belongs as a new thread. I'm just really stressed out by this. I feel like I'm killing her. 

Otherwise....she has not had any bad walk reactions for a while, I'm really trying to prevent things. Had her walk off trail and go into a sit-down while I held a treat in front of her nose while 3 humans walked past us yesterday. She has been fine with dogs on leash that we pass in parks on or on the street. Have been avoiding places where she might run into an off-leash dog but I'm going to try to just get her away, and/or do the "turn and face" thing? I dunno. 

Was really looking forward to the first training session and now....don't know when she's going to be well enough for it.


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> *Had to cancel because Willow is sick. Has had diarrhea now for 4 going on 5 days and has lost 5 pounds. No vet seems to care. I called our (her) vet again this morning and she said she MAY finally give her some drugs, but yeah, doesn't even want to see her or have me bring in a fecal sample. I honestly wonder if she has worms (I feel like I'm feeding her a lot but she's losing weight and not really pooping anything out except orange mucus). I'm kinda disappointed in the vets I have talked to. Her behavior is normal otherwise and that's why they're all telling me not to worry but...how much weight does she have to lose, how many days does the diarrhea have to go on, before I should worry???*
> 
> Sorry, this probably belongs as a new thread. I'm just really stressed out by this. I feel like I'm killing her.
> 
> ...


Have you physically taken her in to the vet and they've refused to do anything? or have you only spoken with them over the phone? Have there been any recent changes to her diet or has she possibly had access to something that she shouldn't be eating?

edit: I just saw that you say they won't see her. Could you call and make an appointment for a "general checkup" and then bring up your concerns?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

banzai555 said:


> Had to cancel because Willow is sick. Has had diarrhea now for 4 going on 5 days and has lost 5 pounds. No vet seems to care. I called our (her) vet again this morning and she said she MAY finally give her some drugs, but yeah, doesn't even want to see her or have me bring in a fecal sample. I honestly wonder if she has worms (I feel like I'm feeding her a lot but she's losing weight and not really pooping anything out except orange mucus). I'm kinda disappointed in the vets I have talked to. Her behavior is normal otherwise and that's why they're all telling me not to worry but...how much weight does she have to lose, how many days does the diarrhea have to go on, before I should worry???
> 
> Sorry, this probably belongs as a new thread. I'm just really stressed out by this. I feel like I'm killing her.
> 
> ...


Try feeding her boiled chicken and white rice as her meals for 24-48 hours and see if it binds her up.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Koda'sMom said:


> Have you physically taken her in to the vet and they've refused to do anything? or have you only spoken with them over the phone? Have there been any recent changes to her diet or has she possibly had access to something that she shouldn't be eating?
> 
> edit: I just saw that you say they won't see her. Could you call and make an appointment for a "general checkup" and then bring up your concerns?


I'm guessing I'll have to wait a week or two before they could get me in for a general checkup. I may just bring her in later today and be like "HERE IS MY DOG PLEASE DO SOMETHING TO FIX THIS" but I dunno. If they don't call me back by noon, though, I'm gonna just call a different vet in the next town and see if they would be interested in seeing her. 

It makes me think of my pastor whose standard poodle died two years ago. Dog was losing weight and sounded similar, vets wouldn't do anything. Turned out the dog had worms--as simple as that. And yeah, the dog died. Wonder if it was this same vet. 

Since I've had her, the only "bad" things I've seen her get into are cat poop and sticks. She used to chew on sticks but not eat them, but lately she'll chew them into small pieces and then start eating the pieces. And of course I try to keep her away from cat poop but there's a neighbor cat who poops in my backyard every day. The day before Willow got sick, she did three things: a) swam in the river and drank river water (I usually try to keep her out of the water but she ignored me this time), b) ate some really fresh cat poop before I could stop her, and c) ate a piece of a stick before I could stop her. So could be any of those things, or none of those things. I have no idea.

EDIT: When I adopted Willow, her previous owner told me she was due for her rabies/distemper vaccine. I don't know why the previous owner didn't just get them herself, but whatever, I got her her vaccines on the 3rd day I had her. So I'm guessing this also means she never had a general vet checkup, which would have caught worms if she had them (right?).


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The vet doesn’t need the dog to diagnose worms. Take in a fresh stool sample. They should be able to test it that day. If you don’t like your vet, find another one.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> The vet doesn’t need the dog to diagnose worms. Take in a fresh stool sample. They should be able to test it that day. If you don’t like your vet, find another one.


That's what I said below. I'm going to try a different one if these folks don't call me back soon. 

This area....is crazy short on vets. When I first got Willow, the first place I called (in Hamilton, where I live) had a 3-month wait time. The second place I called (also in Hamilton) wasn't taking new patients. The third place I called (also Hamilton) was able to give Willow her vaccines, but the vet is like 90 years old and didn't come super well recommended. 

So the FOURTH place I called was in the next town up (Corvallis) and they're the only vet there. This is the one I'm currently using and the one where Willow got spayed. The next place I will try is in the next town up (Stevensville) and I don't know if they'll be taking new patients. Really trying to avoid having a vet all the way in Missoula, but I'll do what I have to do.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> Her behavior is normal otherwise and that's why they're all telling me not to worry but...how much weight does she have to lose, how many days does the diarrhea have to go on, before I should worry???


If she isn't showing discomfort or acting lethargic, I wouldn't worry yet. The first thing you should do is fast her for 24 hours. Then slowly feed some boiled rice, boiled till its mush and give the water it was boiled in for a couple of meals. Then slowly add some chicken for a couple of meals. 3-4 days later, add back some food with the rice/mush. You can do like Luv said, take in a fecal sample without taking her in. A lot of the time you can just lump it as a bug, same as us, and we tend to prolong it by feeding them too much, too soon.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> If she isn't showing discomfort or acting lethargic, I wouldn't worry yet. The first thing you should do is fast her for 24 hours. Then slowly feed some boiled rice, boiled till its mush and give the water it was boiled in for a couple of meals. Then slowly add some chicken for a couple of meals. 3-4 days later, add back some food with the rice/mush. You can do like Luv said, take in a fecal sample without taking her in. A lot of the time you can just lump it as a bug, same as us, and we tend to prolong it by feeding them too much, too soon.


If she's already 4 days in should I still fast her? I can try that...

When it started, I immediately put her on boiled chicken and rice but yeah maybe I didn't cook the rice enough, and I used 5-minute rice (it was what I had on hand). Started mixing in a tablespoon of pumpkin puree, plus have given her a probiotic the last 2 days. The stool didn't show any appreciable changes at all during this time other than to turn orange and be like straight mucousy. It almost seems like the stuff she's eating isn't making it out at all, all she has left to excrete is mucous.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> I'm guessing I'll have to wait a week or two before they could get me in for a general checkup. I may just bring her in later today and be like "HERE IS MY DOG PLEASE DO SOMETHING TO FIX THIS" but I dunno. If they don't call me back by noon, though, I'm gonna just call a different vet in the next town and see if they would be interested in seeing her.
> 
> It makes me think of my pastor whose standard poodle died two years ago. Dog was losing weight and sounded similar, vets wouldn't do anything. Turned out the dog had worms--as simple as that. And yeah, the dog died. Wonder if it was this same vet.
> 
> ...


She drink river water. I would insist a vet, ANY vet test her stool for parasites including giardia and lepto. Look at her gums...are they pale. Hook worm will cause loose stool with mucus. The stool can have color changes including blood with hookworm infestation. Hook worm infestation (or any heavy parasite load) will cause anemia and weight loss over time. Pale gums are a sign of blood loss and anemia in infestation. You can actually buy Stongid T online from reputable sources that would treat hookworm and won't hurt her if that is not what is causing the problem. Other worms have other treatments. Panacur is wider spectrum and also available online. 

Either way I would tell you vet your dog is sick and needs an ASAP appointment. If they blow you off find another vet. If you have an ER vet near you go there. It will cost more but you will be seen.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

banzai555 said:


> If she's already 4 days in should I still fast her? I can try that...
> 
> When it started, I immediately put her on boiled chicken and rice but yeah maybe I didn't cook the rice enough, and I used 5-minute rice (it was what I had on hand). Started mixing in a tablespoon of pumpkin puree, plus have given her a probiotic the last 2 days. The stool didn't show any appreciable changes at all during this time other than to turn orange and be like straight mucousy. It almost seems like the stuff she's eating isn't making it out at all, all she has left to excrete is mucous.


Yeah, I would fast her for a day to let her gut settle a little. Minute rice doesn't work. Even if you do get her into a vet, I'd still follow the rice and chicken plan and tell the vet that's what you've been doing.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

banzai555 said:


> That's what I said below. I'm going to try a different one if these folks don't call me back soon.
> 
> This area....is crazy short on vets. When I first got Willow, the first place I called (in Hamilton, where I live) had a 3-month wait time. The second place I called (also in Hamilton) wasn't taking new patients. The third place I called (also Hamilton) was able to give Willow her vaccines, but the vet is like 90 years old and didn't come super well recommended.
> 
> So the FOURTH place I called was in the next town up (Corvallis) and they're the only vet there. This is the one I'm currently using and the one where Willow got spayed. The next place I will try is in the next town up (Stevensville) and I don't know if they'll be taking new patients. Really trying to avoid having a vet all the way in Missoula, but I'll do what I have to do.


There are so many posts today I haven’t hadn’t read to each one in detail. Are you in a rural area? Are there farm vets who travel rather than using an office? Maybe you can use one of those.


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## brightspot (Apr 18, 2013)

Make sure she's getting enough fluids. Diarrhea can be very debilitating. Pinch her skin into a tent. If it stays tented, she's dehydrated. Use a syringe to squirt water in her mouth, if you have to.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

brightspot said:


> Make sure she's getting enough fluids. Diarrhea can be very debilitating. Pinch her skin into a tent. If it stays tented, she's dehydrated. Use a syringe to squirt water in her mouth, if you have to.


I was worried about that too. She hadn't been drinking a lot, but she's been better about it for the last couple of days. Passes the tent test. 

The vets FINALLY gave me some metraziondole or whatever plus some dewormer for later in case she does have worms. Took me all day of waiting, and 3 phone calls, for them to even talk to me other than saying "we'll have the vet call you back later". So I'm hoping this will help. I had to leave her this afternoon for 3 hours while I went to a work meeting...took her outside just before and she didn't go, but when I came back 3 hours later she had had diarrhea in her crate. 

I've cried a lot the past couple of days. It is SO hard to have a sick dog with a full-time job and it doesn't help that the absolute busiest time of my job starts on Saturday when hunting season opens. Not gonna lie. It's been really hard. I am trying my best to get Willow well and nothing has worked, so hopefully the drugs will.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Oh no! I've been through my dog having diarrhea (light meals of boiled chicken & rice worked for him in about 48 hrs), but never seen Mucous in diarrhea. I'd be tempted to bag up the next round (or spoon it into a plastic container, yich), drop it at vet's office and ask them to examine it! 

Orange color sounds really weird too, if she hasn't been eating the pumpkin treats. 

Hopefully these worming drugs will work, but I think it's weird that they just didn't check her poop first before giving drugs.


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## Mudypoz (Mar 3, 2016)

I don't know if you've heard of the "bonker", but a lot of people swear by it and a lot of people hate it. I've used it with great success on two very leash aggressive dogs that I had been working with for quite some time. The most important thing using the bonker is timing.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

Mudypoz said:


> I don't know if you've heard of the "bonker", but a lot of people swear by it and a lot of people hate it. I've used it with great success on two very leash aggressive dogs that I had been working with for quite some time. The most important thing using the bonker is timing.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRx...E7TYM_xgEj1kXHCt5LSpiFyCVx4sd5q1qfuGbI0nsqTN4


Jeezus Murphy...
Smacking a dog with a towel is still smacking a dog with a towel. Or a newspaper, or a fly-swatter or whatever the newest "thing" is. 

There are better ways-- you are trying to rile people up surely?


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## Mudypoz (Mar 3, 2016)

"There are better ways-- you are trying to rile people up surely?"

No, why would I try to rile people up? Like I said in my post, a lot of people (trainers) swear by it, and a lot of them hate it. You can do what you want with it but no need to jump on me for passing on information.


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