# 13 wk old showing aggression to other dogs



## Ashley Martin (May 8, 2009)

I'm new here. My name is Ashley, and we now have our second GSD, who is 13 weeks old. (Our first shepherd, Kirby, died this winter, age 8, of cancer, but more about him another time).

Our puppy, a male named Robin, went to our first Puppy class at Petsmart on Wednesday. He growled and barked at the other puppies, and was very uncomfortable, so the trainer crated him for the duration of the session, squirting w/a water bottle at signs of growling, etc. The trainer repeated aloud several times, '13 weeks and ALREADY showing aggression and fear of other dogs.' I think it was her tone and reaction to Robin that have me most alarmed. 

She asked us to spend an extra hour at the front of Petsmart during the week, with Robin in a Gentle Leader head collar, to practice non-aggressive behavior towards other dogs. We did this today, and it seemed to go well: one growl (squirt!), one bark (squirt!) and then nothing but a curious look on Robin's face when he saw other dogs. 

My questions, for anyone who can help me:

Is this kind of aggression, at this age (13 weeks), something that can be resolved? Is it possible the trainer was over-reacting a bit? FYI, we got him at eight weeks, the first of his litter to leave. He interacted very well with his littermates, and has been terrific with our one year old female 60 pound mix. He has also met and played well with three other dogs belonging to relatives. He's wonderful with me, my husband and our four small children. 

As I recall, our first GSD never loved the smaller puppies in his beginning classes, either. He got on well with the bigger dogs, though. I don't remember any of the dogs in his puppy class being labeled as 'aggressive.' 

Thanks for any advice!


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

Ashley what else can you tell us about his body language during the barking/growling?


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## rgrim84 (May 8, 2009)

My 11 week old German Shepherd Puppy does the same thing. He loves the dogs that he his around (friends dogs) and my small dog, but he would growl and bark and any other dog aggressively. I started taking him to obedience classes last week and he quickly snapped out of it and by the end of the class he wasn't barking at any of the dogs. I took him to Petsmart yesterday to get some food and there were several dogs there. I ignored them and kept him walking right past them at a normal pace and he didn't even growl or bark at them. It seems the more he is around other dogs, the better he is getting. The first 2 weeks were pretty bad though. I think with time and lots of socialization he will snap out of it. But I'm no professional, lol. 

PS: I don’t know about Petsmarts training program, but I really haven’t heard anything good about them yet. Maybe a trainer that offers more positive reinforcement might be a better solution.


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## Rügen (Mar 19, 2008)

Hi Ashley and welcome to the board. 

It sounds like you have come across a trainer who still subscribes to an outdated mindset. There are so many ways to work with your dog without resorting to any kind of physical corrections. Try reading up on NILF (Nothing in life is Free) and don't worry, your puppy is not aggressive, he just doesn't know better yet.









Others who are more educated that I am on this topic should be along to help you out soon.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

13 week old is NOT agressive. Just doesn't happen at that age. This is probably just very vocal play behavior. Sorry but I would Get a new trainer.


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## Ashley Martin (May 8, 2009)

As for body language, he gets very still and alert. The first night of class, he lay behind my feet and growled at a few dogs. I moved my feet so he wasn't behind them. He actually seemed better then, although he did growl at one other puppy. 

Today, during our 'non aggression' practice at the front of Petsmart (actually a lot of fun, since we talked with a lot of really nice customers who've had shepherds at one time or another), he barked at one dog, then got squirted with water. The next dog (who was staring at him), he growled at, and got squirted. After that, several dogs came and went, and he sat up and looked lively, but no growling or barking. 

He's been trying out a certain deep bark with strange dogs that we pass on our neighborhood walks, but it doesn't seem abnormal. If anything, he just seems more territorial and protective at this age than our first GSD, who had a very strong herding instinct, paid little attention to other dogs and followed our family everywhere. 

I was very diligent and consistent in training our first GSD, and he was well mannered and wonderful. I feel confident about training Robin, as well. It was the trainer's attitude that first night of class that had me concerned, as though perhaps our first shepherd was beginner's luck, and I'm just a naive pet owner and don't what aggression is. That was the feeling I got, though I doubt the trainer (who seems very competent) meant it that way, or meant it personally.

Thanks for all the feedback!


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

I am sorry but at 13 weeks old I have a HUGE issue with using negative interventions for his behavior. I think that your "trainer" was completely out of line putting your puppy in a crate and squirting water at him on his very first training session. This could totally back fire and cause fear based agression issues.

Personally I think at 13 weeks old your pup needs positive reinforcement. I do not believe in a correction unless the dog has learned what is expected and is now chosing not to perform. Your pup has no clue how to behave with this situation yet.

I would rather work on redirection for this behavior. Teach the "watch me" command at home. Puppy distracted but with you, "watch me" and then treat. Once puppy has learned "watch me" at home you can start adding distractions. Then when puppy is out and about you can use this to "change his thought pattern" when he becomes focused on another dog ect. 

Training at this level should be all about timing, intervention and redirection, not adversion training.

I am sorry but I would be looking for another trainer.


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## Ashley Martin (May 8, 2009)

Thanks. We've been doing 'watch me' for a while, and I used it during our hour long sitting at Petsmart when a few dogs walked by. He responds to it well. He loves to practice--I say, 'Robin! Let's go to work!' and he bounces into the kitchen, where we work on sit/down and sit/stay down/stay. I started with him the day we brought him home at 8 weeks. Now he does them all, even without a treat. He's such a little gem, happy and motivated,and absolutely no problem for us at all, excepting that first night of class. I feel good about his temperament. Hopefully that first night of class was just an anomaly. I just want to make it through this course at Petsmart, for socialization purposes, then switch to another dog training club I've used before. Timing and class availability were the only reasons for taking this Petsmart class. We needed to get started, and there weren't any upcoming courses at the other training club. Thanks again!


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

I do teach dog training professionally and I too would say look for another trainer! A 13 week old puppy is not going to be "aggressive" it was wrong for her to label your pup as such .


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

Get a new trainer that is experienced in dog training *and* understands canine behaviour. This dingdong from PetsMart can't tell her bum hole from where her mouth is. 

Dogs this young does not know the meaning of aggression. It is extremely unprofessional of this 'trainer' to act the way she did, and stamp a puppy as agro. 

Also I will never, *ever* put a Halti (or any training collar) on such a young pup, not when they are still so fragile and growing. At this age, they should be taught using positive reinforcement. I would have flipped out if she squirted water at my dog.

This trainer is very, very dangerous.

Good luck in looking for a better one. Perhaps a member in your area could recommend one. I suggest you start a separate post on that. 

~ Rei


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## Maryn (Feb 15, 2008)

Firstly, I'd find a new trainer.

Secondly, it's common for pups to go through a fear phase at this age. It isn't a bad thing, but can be turned into a problem if not handled correctly.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I agree with the others, this is fear based, he's a young puppy in a new situation and is probably feeling insecure. He's barking and growling to keep the other dogs at a distance to feel safe. What you want to do is not punish him for it, but to create a positive association with the presence of other dogs so that he longer feels insecure. Your trainer is doing the exact opposite, which can totally backfire. 

I have used (and sometimes still do) a squirt of water at Keefer when he's being a butthead, but he's 3-1/2 years old, not a little puppy. And I only do it at home, never around strange dogs. I know that he's not aggressive and there's no fear involved, he's just being a brat, and it has worked to let him know he needs to cut out whatever he's doing. Sometimes I just have to pick up the squirt bottle and give him "the look" and he stops immediately. 

For your puppy, in a new, potentially scary situation with lots of new dogs and people he doesn't know, I would want to teach him that other dogs = good stuff for him, lots of yummy treats. Your "trainer" is teaching him that other dogs = bad stuff for him. I wouldn't keep him in this class, even for the socialization, unless you're willing to stand up for him and refuse to put him in a crate and let her squirt him. She really knows nothing about dog behavior.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Continue going to class ONLY if you let the trainer know that you will not be using negative techniques with a baby (that's what a 13week old pup is) - if you just want to do this for socialization, go in, sit down against a comfy wall with a good book & read your pup into boredom - when he's calm & non-reactove to the other dogs give him lots of treats: you want him to learn that strange dog = good things (yummy treats, fun etc) NOT strange dog = punishment (crating, squirted with water in his face, pulled by his face etc - I also would never use a head collar on such a young pup!) Maybe you'll spend the first fews of class just doing 'nothing' but sitting against that wall but I think he'll figure out pretty quick that class time means great things if you stick to positive techniques.

Please read what Suzanne Clothier has to say about head halters (which she does use) before continueing this with your pup
http://flyingdogpress.com/


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## Ashley Martin (May 8, 2009)

Again, thanks for the helpful feedback. I, too, felt like Robin's growling was a normal reaction to a lot of new things at once. We've been switched to another class, a smaller one on Wednesday. I also plan on taking him to walk around Petsmart again before then. We did that yesterday, and, as someone else mentioned, by walking at a normal pace and ignoring the other dogs we passed, he seemed fine, and just needs to learn about other dogs and new environments. Hopefully, the new class will be more constructive. If not, we'll try again somewhere else!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Is your puppy fully vaccinated already? I usually avoid Petsmart and the area next to it with young puppies because they can get different diseases from there, like kennel cough or ringworm or maybe something even worse.

Your puppy is not aggressive and your 'trainer' is not a trainer. I did take a puppy class in Petsmart with my pups myself and I was very clear to the trainer that I listen to their suggestions but I am the one who decides if I am going to use them, and I am the one who touches and trains my dog, not them. 

After a bad experience with one of my dogs and another not good experience with a behaviourist that decided that she wanted to break Anton into submission because he refused to work for her, my policy now is not to allow anybody except myself, not even trusted friends and trainers, to correct my dog, period.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

Hi Ashley, that is great news









These are some great socialization ideas: 

puppies being socialized  

Laurie's Puppy Challenge 

puppy development stages 

Remember that every puppy is unique! (& we want to see some Robn pics!!!)


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Is your puppy fully vaccinated already?


Good point. Your pup is just 13 weeks old, I don't think its puppy course is done yet. 

Also I agree with not allowing trainers, strangers and friends correct my dog. I do not allow anyone to correct my dog. The only people outside her pack (my husband and I) that is allowed to correct her on obedience is a close friend and fellow GSD owner because she will be the one pup-sitting Janka when I fly back to my home country to visit. And Janka has known her and her dogs since she was 10 weeks old. 

Hehe Cassidy's Mom, somehow I can't picture Keefer being a butthead. And yes, squirting water at an adult dog who is deliberately misbehaving is completely different from a pup who is insecure and has no clue what it is doing wrong. 

You have received some pretty good advice.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: The StigHehe Cassidy's Mom, somehow I can't picture Keefer being a butthead.


Haven't met him yet, have you?


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## Ashley Martin (May 8, 2009)

FYI, I just posted a link to two Robin pics in the 'Pictures' Forum.


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: AshleyM09
> 
> She asked us to spend an extra hour at the front of Petsmart during the week, with Robin in a Gentle Leader head collar, to practice non-aggressive behavior towards other dogs.


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## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Sorry was trying to post a comment on this but I took too long and could no longer post it.

So I will comment on my above quote here.

This is another huge red flag for me. That your trainer would ask you to take your pup and put it in a training situation for AN HOUR long session is absolutly crazy. Your pup will have 10 minutes of learning time (if you are lucky) at a time. Subjecting it to an hour of this is insane.

I commend you on the work you have done, and I commend you for continuing to want to train your pup but this trainer is seriously a danger and lacks even the basics when it comes to working with a young pup.

1. Labeling a 13 week old puppy, not only complete bunch of crap but increases owner/handler anxiety which travels right down the leash to the pup.

2. Violated the cardial rule with the crate. The crate is never ever used in any type of negative way. The crate is a safe secure place for puppy to relax.

3. Negative training methods for a puppy. At this age everything must be positive and fun and happy. As I said before, corrections should only ever be used IF the dog knows the expected behaviour and it is not offered. I realize that the "trainer" may be using the water bottle as a distraction for the next step of redirection BUT it is a negative consequence and could cause some really nasty fear issues.

4. Expecting an hour out of this baby.

Run away from this trainer, she doesn't know her butt from her water bottle. Get another class that has a trainer with experience in positive training methods and if possible has worked with and likes German Shepherds and or other working strong natured breeds.

This is not a critique of you in any way so I hope you don't take it that way but I think you are really making a mistake taking your baby back to this trainer.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

Drop the squirt bottle for corrections immediatly. I've groomed a female Akita who's owner's thought it was a good idea to punish the dog with water squirts, and guess what? The dog absolutely would go nuts when i tried to wash her or even spray some cologne or conditioner on her. Couldnt blame the dog, though.


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## MiasMom (Nov 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: k9sarneko
> 
> Run away from this trainer, she doesn't know her butt from her water bottle. Get another class that has a trainer with experience in positive training methods and if possible has worked with and likes German Shepherds and or other working strong natured breeds.
> 
> This is not a critique of you in any way so I hope you don't take it that way but I think you are really making a mistake taking your baby back to this trainer.


Very sound advice. You might be able to get a partial refund on the payments you've made for the class, it can't hurt to ask. At the Petsmart nearest me, when a previous trainer left, the young woman who was a cashier took on the training classes. I asked her how she got promoted to the instructor position. She said they are sent to Petsmart training school- it couldn't have taken very long for that education. Not very confidence-inspiring.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Ditch that training class!!

13 week showing aggression - I don't think so! Sounds more like an excited,verbal, normal pup.

Find a class with a more experienced trainer.


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## Mymadrylee (May 10, 2009)

Ashley I am pretty much in the same boat. I have a now, 8 1/2 month old working breed GSD that started @ about 16 weeks showing aggressive protective behavior growling at any dog (other than my, now 10 month old female GSD, that came near me. 

I immediately sought help from my local German Shepherd club that recommended a trainer that specializes in aggressive GSD. He got better, even went to a class two weeks ago especially for dogs with dog on dog aggression. He was an angel!! Never growled, barked or snarled a any of the dogs as they walked within inches of us. Floored the trainers. 

Now two days ago he started growling/barking/lunging at anyone that comes in the house or near me!! 

I have had large dogs all my life and had a 13 y/o GSD that had a stroke and dies last year and have never had a dog act like this.

Any help or suggestions anyone can give would be much appreciated since I don't want it to end up being a biting situation!!


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## Mymadrylee (May 10, 2009)

I agree, a professional trainer wouldn't make those comments!! Any dog, especially a puppy, can be overwhelmed the first, second, even third time going into a setting like that, especially if he hasn't been around a lot of other puppies before, and most at that age haven't. 

I don't know where you live or if it is or is near a big city but most cities have GSD clubs that meet weekly/biweekly or monthly. There are knowledgeable people at these meetings that usually meet in local parks and offer advice, socialization and will know every decent GSD trainer in your area and give you good solid, sound advice!! 

I'd try googling "German Shepherd Clubs in ???" and see what you come up with good luck!!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MiasMom
> 
> Very sound advice. You might be able to get a partial refund on the payments you've made for the class, it can't hurt to ask. At the Petsmart nearest me, when a previous trainer left, the young woman who was a cashier took on the training classes. I asked her how she got promoted to the instructor position. She said they are sent to Petsmart training school- it couldn't have taken very long for that education. Not very confidence-inspiring.


It's true. I used to be a manager at petsmart. They get sent away to petsmart training school for a two week long course. That's all the training they get.

I agree with everyone else. Get a new trainer. When Chrono was 16 weeks old the trainer thought he was aggressive because he played rough and barked at other dogs when he was on a leash because he had barrier frustration. She would not let chrono near this one golden lab in the class because he liked to play rough with this dog quite a bit. One time he started playing with the other dog and mouthed his neck and she started saying that he bit the golden lab. What a load of crap. By never allowing him to meet this one dog his barrier frustration only got worse. Petsmart trainers are almost never properly trained and it seems like they do more damage than anything.


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## bergwanderkennels (Mar 26, 2009)

> Quoterop the squirt bottle for corrections immediatly. I've groomed a female Akita who's owner's thought it was a good idea to punish the dog with water squirts, and guess what? The dog absolutely would go nuts when i tried to wash her or even spray some cologne or conditioner on her. Couldnt blame the dog, though.












AH THANK YOU! This is a method I have seen used on Brittish T.V by some well known trainers (Dog borstel). Oh does that form of correction nerve me.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I hope people that are reading this now kind of long thread aren't getting confused with all the suggestions.....

Because the #1, most important, main thing about the first post question has EVERYTHING to do with the puppy's age.

And if you lose track of that, and get lost in the mire of 'aggression' you are on the wrong path and really setting yourself up for an adult dog with massive problems. 

<span style="color: #3333FF"><span style='font-size: 20pt'>Like most of us keep saying *A PUPPY DOESN'T SHOW TRUE AGGRESSION*</span></span>

So if you look at the growling, barking, biting as 'aggression' and treat it as such it is WRONG and will only make things worse in a PUPPY.

Our pups all go thru normal fear stages the first year. NORMAL, that we need to prepare for and guide them thru. NOT correct them and make them worse. If we know this, and are aware of it, then we tend to then help the situation and not make it worse.

These sites explain whats going on and why 'corrections' are the worst thing to do (with a puppy):

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/DevelopmentalStages.html

http://www.doberman.org/articles/puppy.htm

http://home.flash.net/~astroman/primer1.html

http://www.vonfalconer.com/puppy.html

Older dogs are completely different! IF we have done a good job to raise a stable and confident dog, we shouldn't have issues. But if they do crop up a short quick correction will work because the dog IS stable, knows we are taking care of everything and are in charge, and they just need to back off cause mom/dad is watching. My dogs know it's not up to them to 'decide' who to like or not and show aggression. The world is generally a happy and wonderful place (cause I've socialized them) and if there is a 'bad' whatever it is MY job to deal with it, and I will.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

First, when I read the "training" method, it made me want to beat that trainer with a rolled up newspaper and sprayed in the face with a super soaker.Ugh!

Anyway, sounds like your pup is just scared/unsure of his surroundings/new dogs. The last thing you want to do is build a negative link between new people/squirt bottle.

Also, I'm a firm believer that positive reinforcement is the way to go. Also, teaching your GSD that YOU are there to protect them and nothing can happen to them if you're there is imparative...not that you're there to punish them. 

But that's just my two cents.


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## Sasha's Family (May 10, 2009)

Hi Ashley,

Welcome to the forums well there are 2 type of barks Sasha Uses to us 


-Play Bark (Means She Wants To have some fuss or play)

-Protective Bark (Means she dosent want you near that or she feels offended in anyway)

Those are the 2 barks i know hope this helps a bit


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## george1990 (Nov 24, 2008)

I'd get a refund. If they refuse, say that you thought, based on the Petsmart website, that the training was positive-reinforcement-based and that it also emphasized classical conditioning and that it says that learning should not be painful or harmful and should be fun. 

I also agree that 13 week old pups don't show true aggression and are just trying to learn their boundaries/


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## MiasMom (Nov 3, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> <span style="color: #3333FF">Like most of us keep saying *A PUPPY DOESN'T SHOW TRUE AGGRESSION*</span>
> 
> So if you look at the growling, barking, biting as 'aggression' and treat it as such it is WRONG and will only make things worse in a PUPPY.

















Good post & links!


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## Ashley Martin (May 8, 2009)

I love the support and feedback of all the GSD lovers out there! Thanks so much. It reassures me about Robin, who seems a pretty normal pup, based on my experiences with the three other dogs I've raised from puppy-hood. 

Here's what we did today: went to my brother-in-law's Mother's Day brunch. Robin went along, to meet their 8 y.o. lab female, Bella. We started out on-leash in the backyard, where he immediately did the deep bark at her. I did the 'ack! Leave it!' thing, and he quit. This happened five or six times while we walked around. Every time I did 'Watch me!', or called his name, he responded appropriately, for which I praised him and gave him a treat. Finally he was going right up to Bella to sniff, and became playful (like he is with our other dog, Nancy). 

After going off-leash, he tried the deep bark a couple of more times, and I did the 'ack!' thing, and he quit. Then he just ran around and wanted to play. More and more, I feel that it was the trainer, and not Robin, who had the problem at Petsmart. 

Someone mentioned the 'training' that Petsmart trainers receive--I'd been wondering about that, but couldn't find any specifics on the website. Since they moved us to another, smaller class, I'm going to give it one more try. However, I am prepared to ask for my money back!

I'm in Tulsa, and there's more than one GSD club that I'm aware of. Going to one of them has always been part of the plan for us; I'd just thought Petsmart would be an easy way to start the socialisation process, but looks like I was wrong!

Thanks again!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

kick the trainer in the shins and take your pup elsewhere. Your pup was probably nervous and excited. I wonder how being put in a crate and sprayed in the face by a stranger affected him?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Ashley, check out this thread for what a puppy class should be like: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1070723


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