# Hanach Jipo-Me 4th bloodline?



## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I found this website: HANACH Jipo-Me

They state of Hanach:


> She is significant for her strong head, lots of energy and working drives. It is a female with nice strong bones. HANACH is also fully social female and at the same time she has very strong protection. She also loves to play with ball. We expect HANACH to produce strong self confident progeny. We also expect good hips and elbows results. *HANACH belongs to the 4th bloodline from her father and mother side.*


(emphasis mine)

What does it mean for a dog to belong to the 4th bloodline of their sire/dam? I'm confused by the last sentence.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I see Jipo-Me only twice in the pedigree: once in the dam's mom, and once in the sire. So my novice self would think that, at most, Hanach has two ancestors of the Jipo-Me bloodline, making her the 3rd member of the line in her own pedigree. Does that phrase mean something different?


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Wildo, there are others who know more about this than me, but go to Jinopo's website(Jinopo.CZ Czech, Slovak, DDR, East German K9 working dogs) and click on the tab for "Our Dogs" and select "Stud Dogs" or "Females". Jinopo (which I believe is a group of breeders including Jipo-Me) characterizes the bloodlines not by breeder, but by male bloodlines. For each breeding dog there will be dogs listed by "bloodlines." For each dog, it will list the male sire line back to a particular "Founder." For instance, in the "2nd bloodline" the sire line descends back to Hettel Uckermark; 4th bloodline back to Utz v. Haus Schutting; 5th bloodline back to Rolf; etc.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Oh, how very strange. Thanks for the info jmdjack!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no , afraid this is going to be one of those complicated trips down genetic history. I am assuming this writer means the branch off the family tree - DDR Zuchtlinien


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks for the link, Carmen. I'll have to dig into that after work.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

carmspack said:


> no , afraid this is going to be one of those complicated trips down genetic history. I am assuming this writer means the branch off the family tree - DDR Zuchtlinien


I do not know the basis of Jinopo's bloodline characterization, but it does not appear on its face to correspond to the DDR Zuchtlinien. Jinopo references 6 bloodlines going back to the following founders:

1 - extinct (I think I recall a post of Hans stating this)
2 - Hettel Uckermark
3 - Klodo Boxberg
4 - Utz Haus Schutting
5 - Rolf Osnabrucker Land
6 - Utz Haus Schutting (again)

For instance, wouldn't Jinopo's Bloodline 2 (Hettel Uckermark) be DDR Bloodline V (Nestor Wiegersfelson down through Immo Hassenfang)?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is along the lines of the one topic which never got finished - the one which went back to the Wurtemberger, and two Swabian types - then bringing it forward to the four pillars of the modern GSD which include Nestor Wiegerfelsen, Junker Nassau , Claudius Hain and R litter Osnabrucker Land . Each sire group had characteristics that set them apart and understanding that helps in making the balance.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I have a chart of the bloodlines somewhere, I will see if I can dig it up for you...


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

I found them, but I'm not sure if they're okay to post or not. I don't even remember where I got them, I've had them saved on my computer for years.

They might not be exactly what you're looking for, but they are pretty cool.

Oh well - mods, if they're not allowed, take em down


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I'm saving them with the hopes of someday to be able to understand them


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

phgsd, great charts! Thank you. 

Carmen, I regret that the other topic did not go further. I had my "notebook" out and was hoping to learn more modern dogs who tend to be representative of each of the founding regional types. 

Back to this topic, I get that each sire line is SUPPOSED to represent something different. But what I do not get is how can looking solely at the sire line tell you about the dog? I say this because I have read some (not you) who purport to attribute traits to czech lines based upon these "bloodlines." While I personally believe knowing the bloodlines (back beyond a few generations) is valuable, I am having a hard time comprehending that these sire lines alone predict traits in this day and age. The further back these dogs are in a pedigree, the MORE dogs are in the pedigree and the more influences there are outside of the sire line. Indeed, what about the female lines? 

As reflected in phgsd's charts, Bernd Lierberg is within Rolf's sire line. Is Bernd representative of Rolf? If a male is not a representative of the founder's bloodline - which in the case of Bernd I suspect he is not - what good is characterizing the dogs by a particular male bloodline? Don't get me wrong, I believe bloodlines are important, but I believe a focus on the entire pedigree - and a focus on the characteristics of the actual dogs in the first few generations as they are a product of what is behind them - is what is important. Those are the humble beliefs of a guy who has never bred a single litter and will likely never do so . . . .


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

When they (JINOPO) state that a dog is from a certain bloodline, it means that they have looked at the sire side to see which one of their foundation dogs (z PS kennel) the sire of the dog comes from.

They feel that there are 6 bloodlines, (1st one is extinct) and each bloodline has certain positive & negative traits. For example, 2nd bloodline is known for aggression, etc. The 4th bloodline is known for its high prey etc.

Some agree and some don't with regards to the bloodline traits. To know for sure you have to have to have intimate knowledge of the lines, intimate knowledge of the offspring and most importantly you have to know how they match up with other bloodlines when breeding. 

Hope that helped.


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## Ace952 (Aug 5, 2010)

btw....saw Hanach in person a few times. Very nice looking dog.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Look up pictures of working line dogs with a reverse mask.....then follow the pedigree....their is a very high probability that you will go back to 
Lord v Gleisdreick and an even greater possibility that you go back to Ex v Reidstern . Now these dogs are 5 to 7 gen back in Lords case and 7 to 10 gen back in Ex's case....yet this trait still flows from them. This can happen with other traits also.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Look up pictures of working line dogs with a reverse mask.....then follow the pedigree....their is a very high probability that you will go back to
> Lord v Gleisdreick and an even greater possibility that you go back to Ex v Reidstern . Now these dogs are 5 to 7 gen back in Lords case and 7 to 10 gen back in Ex's case....yet this trait still flows from them. This can happen with other traits also.


Yep, I have read that on more than one occasion. However, is the reverse mask because Lord and Ex are in the sire line or because Lord and Ex are in the pedigree - whether it be sire line or elsewhere? As I said above, I believe knowledge of bloodlines is important. What I am trying to get my head wrapped around is the concept of attributing and predicting traits based solely upon a single sire line which I have seen done on another forum. I would think it is the entire pedigree which predicts the traits of a dog. I would also think line breeding and back massing would be more of a predictor than the sire line. Am I missing something? 

As an aside since you mentioned Lord and Ex, I have a female who, according to the newly revamped Pedigree Database, is 3 - 6,6 on Lord and goes back to Ex 20 times - yes 20 times - in 8 generations (not in the sire line though). She does not have a reverse mask.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Yep, there is nothing absolute in reading pedigrees or sire lines. Because like you said, the whole pedigree is involved, then many variations can and do occur. Maybe it's better to just assume some of us are lucky in using pedigrees to make decisions and land on our feet.....lol. You won't be by yourself with that reasoning either.....take care!


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## Liberatore (May 25, 2012)

What's interesting is that the Arabian horse breed is based on female tail line, think exact opposite of male line, dam->dam->dam->dam... Interesting considering the male dominated society they originate from.

Ang


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks Cliff, I think? Not quite sure where you were going after the first two sentences. If I wanted to assume luck, I would not be asking the questions. Just trying to learn . . . . I will let it go and pursue this information elsewhere. Regards!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Jmdjack.....I wasn't trying to be negative or blow you off....actually I agreed with you. It is difficult for many to conceptualize how a sire line or pedigree tells people something...what I am saying is basically it took many many years of information for the pedigree geeks to use the tool. It's difficult to answer many of the questions asked because the foundation isn't there. So cheek in tongue, it's better to think its luck than to worry or try to understand. 
Sometimes, it is frustrating when you get into pedigrees because a question will be about something on the 4th level, and you try to answer it knowing without thorough understanding of the preceding three level your answer will not satisfy the questioner. Kinda like explaining trigonometry and you haven't ever taken Algebra or Geometry....your answer makes little sense because it is predicated on the understanding of Thr other two. Now, I am not saying pedigrees are just like that, but reading them requires a lot of knowledge of not only the dogs involved but also which things may or may not come through based on what you know. If you stay committed to studying these dogs and their traits it will start to become less muddy....but it can be difficult to explain so people understand( the reading of them)......so in many cases you have to trust the individual until it makes sense....who do you trust????...lol...the ones that seem very lucky about constantly getting good dogs, breeding nice litters, or hitting the nail on the head.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I think the way to learn about pedigrees is just to listen... lol.

I know, for me, talking well.. not so much talking, but listening to those who have been involved with the breed for MANY years has it's advantages.

I have learned a lot (and that is just the surface!) over the past few years and that is just by submersing myself amoungst those who know the breed... listening to those talk about dogs in front of them and them referring to the dogs of the past, etc... 

Also, making correlations with dogs that interest you and taking the time to really research the beginning and not just what you see on the surface/at trials, etc.. 

I could be way off, but that is how I am going about it.. lol.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:thumbup:


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification Cliff, I appreciate it. I will say this to keep your analogy going, while some may not know trig yet, don't assume the foundation necessary to understand some trig concepts is not there. Throw it out there - I may not understand, but maybe others will, and maybe the ensuing discussion will lead to further understanding by the community as a whole. Often when the pedigree and bloodline discussions venture beneath the surface, they sputter and die. Disappointing. 

I realize this came up in a wonky context. I get the concept of bloodlines, and have been researching and studying. I just do not understand the application of bloodlines to breeding in this context, at least as I have heard it used and explained on another forum concerning Czech GSDs. 

Thanks again.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" Often when the pedigree and bloodline discussions venture beneath the surface, they sputter and die. Disappointing"

And disappointed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

There is merit in going backwards and understanding significant bloodlines and what they bring to the table.
As an example how many great pedigrees have or are built on Ingo Rudigen . He is represented in DDR , Czech, WGWL , Belgian dogs of note - . I happen to love this dog especially coming through Held Ritterberg which was a click and brings my other super favourite Bernd Lierberg (double!) through Burga haus Himpel. Of course you can not forget that Ingo is the sire of Jeff Flamings Sand sire of the great Lord Gleisdreieck and Birko Wolfshohle and Don Clausberg. V Don vom Clausberg 
So that puts Ingo into a significant work producing DDR dog - and later into a significant work producing Czech dog Titus Pohranicni Straze and his progeny. 
No Ingo , No Orry haus Antverpa (Belgian) which would mean no Tom Leefdaalhof and no Vito Waldwinkel (WG) then no B- Wolfsheim (Bomber / Bandit) 

getting late 
Carmen
www.carmspack.com


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to add , no Ingo, no Elute or ****** Mohnwiese.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

because I write in bits and pieces as I find time , this "No Ingo , No Orry haus Antverpa (Belgian) which would mean no Tom Leefdaalhof and no Vito Waldwinkel (WG) then no B- Wolfsheim (Bomber / Bandit" was incomplete , then I added Elute and ****** , but that was a brain blip because I had actually wanted to emphasize how valuable VITO WALDWINKEL (as I mentioned in another thread ) was becoming as a proven producer of strong (sane) working dogs ---- Vito is the sire of the 2012 BSP Sieger HANK WEINBERGBLICK who has a stellar record in performance , including two 300 point (perfect) scores V (LGZS) Hank vom Weinbergblick





 
This pedigree makes good use of Ingo http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=705229 nice planning ! 

so to bring it back to the "line" I believe Ingo belongs to the 5th line -- correct me if this is wrong.

Carmen
http://www.carmspack.com 

(what an interesting pup this is Grisu vom Kapbusch


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, as you know Heldv Ritterberg, Bernd v Lierberg, Marko vom Cellerland, and Mutz v d Pelztieferm is my Mount Rushmore.....I agree that Ingo is probably the most influential GS that the average breed person knows little about. He had a tremendous influence on many sub lines of the breed.
@ Jmdjack ....I probably have posted as much pedigree analysis in the past as anyone except Carmen....:thinking:


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Cliff, yes you have and I greatly appreciate it. My last post was in the context of this thread and your explanation of why you did not go into more detail, hence my continuing on with your trig analogy. I certainly was not meaning to imply otherwise because I, again, appreciate the generosity with which you share knowledge and your efforts to educate. I was encouraging you to continue to do so in situations like this one. I think we are getting our wires crossed a little bit because this is occurring on the internet. If we were sitting down talking about this over a beer I am confident these minor misunderstandings would be avoided. You, Carmen, and a few others are the primary reasons why I check in here. 

Since asking these questions, I tracked down the "basic bloodlines" thread on Hans' site and read it. I do not want to rehash that here because it is pretty well hashed out there. I got hung up on the notions that (1) it is best to breed within a line and then next best to breed to lines next to each other and (2) the attribution of traits to lines that descend to male dogs many decades ago (i.e. this line has high anger, good tracking, lesser obedience, that line is super protective, early maturing, handler aggression). When looking back to male dogs alive 70 to 100 years ago, there are many, many sire lines between the tale male and tail female lines, and an equal number of female lines, including the tail female line. In my mind I think, how can one line (the tail male line) dictate the above? I have it better sorted now having read that thread (which in my mind means there is a lot more to it than the tail male line!). 

Carmen, thanks for the discussion of Ingo (both my dogs go back to Ingo). According to the Jinopo website, Ingo is 5th line which is Rolf O. By all accounts, Ingo was quite a dog and your examples of breedings built around him is very interesting. Here's my question as it relates to bloodlines: is Ingo representative of Rolf? If not, what is the utility in characterizing him as part of the Rolf bloodline? 

I want to be clear about a couple things. I am not criticizing Jinopo or Hans (AlpineK9) and I am not challenging your (Cliff and Carmen) knowledge - that would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I am genuinely curious and trying to put the pieces together. 

Thanks.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Thanks Jmdjack, it's all good....I guess the problem from my perspective is that I don't look at those things from the perspective Hans or Jiri does in terms of those lines. First they pretty much leave out the western dogs, yet they go back to Western dogs like Rolf. Second, I place more emphasis on the female line then analyst that primarily use sire line analysis to predict outcomes. I try to factor in both Czech, Western, SL, DDR, in looking at a pedigree . Both males and females....therefore you have to have good fundamental knowledge of all the lines. That's even more important today as you see more mixing of everything(Czech,DDR,west), except for show lines. So this is why it is sometimes difficult to go into detail and it makes sense with say the bloodline numbers that Jinopo uses. I'm looking at a wider spectrum that affects outcome from my perspective. Nothing wrong with what they set up from their perspective, but I don't use that standard of analysis. Hope this helps.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks Cliff, it certainly does help, particularly your point about analyzing the female lines. Of course, analysis of the female lines could give rise to a whole host of other questions! I will give it a break . . . for now, lol.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I do feel that the female line is of high importance , should be the treasure trove of the genetics being preserved , and each advancing generations is positive additive , bringing in the valuable male lines .
When there was crisis in the breed the answer was always to go to the stablising working females - 

here is an interesting pedigree I found starting to introduce some really good "west" genetics into the Czech breeding scheme Zanet Jipo-Me ---- and that is through the very interesting Vito Waldwinkel !!!

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Carmen - I would be VERY interested in your thoughts of the pedigree you just posted. 

My female is Xant/Puci (Masa full sibling is my females mother) and is also a WG/DDR cross on the top. I find her FANTASTIC and although she is a lot of dog for most, is a very nice female as she matures.

The bottom half of the pedigree you posted is EXACTLY what I have been looking for in years - and would like to add another in a year or so.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I love the dam side of this pedigree also!!!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Is this the bottom line that you mean Masa , mother of Zanet? VD Masa Jipo-me -- check out what she has produced -- check out what she is linebred on -- do you see some recurring things ? Is what she has produced what you would like? When you work with a dog only the dog matters (more or less) when you are looking at breeding then what the pedigree produces is primary importance.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I am looking at both Carmen.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

And yes, I was talking about Masa.. sorry, should of been more clear.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

found this -- Line-breeding for the progency of Ruger Van Den Heuvel and Zanet Jipo-Me

get your first hand information about Zanet from them


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## guddu (Mar 14, 2012)

When looking at blood lines, someone asked why a dog from the 8th gen may be relevant today. The reason that breeders like jinopo have the edge is because of the phenomena of selection (for observable phenotype). So if they breed Ingo for a certain characteristic, eg solid nerve, or big head, or whatever...they will select that characteristic in the puppy that shows it best. Next they breed that puppy and the line goes on. This kind of breeding selectively enriches for a stud's dna and soon it may become fixed. OTOH a random breeding where Ingo is in the 8th gen, is just that random. If you are lucky, you may hit the jackpot, though the actual DNA contribution from the 8th gen Ingo in a random breeding is 0.39 %. If you wish to read related discussion, pl. see
Alpine K9 Czech German Shepherds - View topic - Making sense of line breeding


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This is a gem of an answer --- a good breeder has a goal and pilots each generation " So if they breed Ingo for a certain characteristic, eg solid nerve, or big head, or whatever...they will select that characteristic in the puppy that shows it best. Next they breed that puppy and the line goes on. This kind of breeding selectively enriches for a stud's dna and soon it may become fixed. OTOH a random breeding where Ingo is in the 8th gen, is just that random. If you are lucky, you may hit the jackpot, though the actual DNA contribution from the 8th gen Ingo in a random breeding is 0.39 %. "

It is the selection for a type and that goes beyond conformation , extending to behavioural and inherent deeply seated instincts , which include herding (border), and fight drive, desire to work -- they are just THERE ready to be used , or not.

great insight guddu


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