# E Colar Experiences?



## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

I am starting a training program with Camo, my show boy. He is a bit on the spoiled side, but has manners in public. He has an issue with the ball, not knowing when to stop. I do realize, all of this is my fault and I am now trying to start him in Herding and want to gain more control and learn more about training. 
The guy that I will be working with sometimes uses a tool called an E collar. I had never even seen one before going to his kennel. I tested it on my hand and it wasnt very harsh, but my question is, do alot of you use this tool when training?
My dogs ball is kind of like a babys pacifier. I use it to keep him under control. I understand that this is ass backwards. He is supposed to get the ball as a reward for being under control and that is why I am asking this guy for help.
The center and this trainer are highly reccomeneded and the Humane society for our county even uses them to help dogs they are trying to adopt out, with phobias and different behavior problems. I do trust these people, I just wanted to hear about others experiences.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't have any inherent issues with an e-collar, but I don't see the point in using one straight off. Generally, I think they are used for very specific behaviors, when other methods have failed. What exactly are you trying to teach him and what methods have already been tried?


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

I have trained him to sit, stay, down, walk on loose lead and stuff like that. The problem is, I have to have collateral, if you will, in order to get the response I want (in most cases). He is overly obsessed with the ball. He drops it at anyones feet and stands there until 
A. they throw it 
B. I chunck it in the trash 
C. I put him up.
Its the first thing he does when anyone comes over. Its driving my husband nuts. (my dog is 3, this is not new)

So, I walk him on a fur saver and when he gets a little frisky, I crank it up so that he knows its there. Thats how we walk on a loose lead until he settles down after a few min.

I dont know that I have tried anything except praise and treats. He does not care. He wants the ball.

The traine said he my try the prong collar first because the dog *knows* the commands, he just dosnt *want* to do them.

You know the saying, in order to train the dog, you must first be smarter than the dog. Well thats about how I feel right now. I have never met a brick wall like the one I feel like is in front of me right now. Its justa lack of knowledge and experience.

Everyday I learn something new, and everyday before, I thought I knew it all.... ya know.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

An e-collar is just simply a tool that provides stimulation as a method of communicating to a dog just like a prong or certain types of harnesses do. The uses are virtually endless depending upon the type of issue or training that you're doing. I train with an e-collar with my male especially because he is a very hard dog, and it is virtually impossible for me to give him a well timed hard enough to be effective correction while healing in drive. I would have to wind up and I am by no means a petite flower. I use the e-collar in conjunction with a prong (which will not always need to be done) so that he knows without a doubt that the stimulation is coming from me. This is just one small example of a use. 

When introduced and used properly an e-collar is an extremely effective method of communication to a dog, but the tool will not correct anything by itself, it is just part of a training program.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

I love my Dog Tra, but let me add I used marker/clicker training positive re enforcement only until Erika was six months old and did the same with Roxie(got her as an adult dog) until we got to know each other. IMHO you should have a basic understanding of training dogs before using an ecollar. It is a great tool for teaching recall.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would not use the ball. It sounds like he is too obsessed with that reward. There are certain treats I cannot use with my Coke, because he is so obsessed with getting that treat he never learns what we are actually training for. In my experience, the best rewards are JUST valuable enough. Also, you want a reward that can be given within a second of the behavior. Throwing a ball or letting him play with it takes too long and interrupts trying to train a string of behaviors or rewarding a behavior without it stopping (like heeling). It makes sense he brings the ball to everyone, b/c it sounds like up until this point, he has been rewarded with the ball, or enough people have picked it up and thrown it that it has been reinforced. I would use a different reward for training, and the reward the entire training session with a game of ball at the end. He ONLY gets that ball when the 5-10 minute session is complete.


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar IMHO you should have a basic understanding of training dogs before using an ecollar.


I agree, my trainer is going to be using it.

Liesje, thanks for the tips, good info.

John, the last statement sounds like something my trainer would say.

Thank you all for the input!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

I trained all 5 of my dogs (4 German Shepherds and 1 Yorkie) with an e-collar. I find it to be a great tool. It is also one that can be easily abused. It is good that you would be learning how to use the e-collar under the watchful eye of a professional.

Do you mind my asking who the trainer is that you will be using? 

Good Luck!
Tracie


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

http://www.Highlandcanine.com ( I think thats the address)

My trainer is James.

Thanks for your post!


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

yep it is


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: SouthernBellewww.Highlandcanine.com ( I think thats the address)
> 
> My trainer is James.
> 
> Thanks for your post!


They have a very nice website. Good Luck!


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

I've used an ecollar with one of my dogs, but only for recalls. Others who I train with have also used them for the same thing, as well as for obedience during protection work in Schutzhund. I haven't seen much of a need to use them for basic obedience, however. 

I think the trainer has a good idea of trying out the prong/pinch collar first for that stuff. It sounds like the dog has just gotten his way too much in the past. Shouldn't be too tough of a fix for an experienced trainer. 

I know people in police and schutzhund who would LOVE that kind of drive in a dog. Have you thought about agility or schutzhund....it sounds like it might be just the thing for him. And the training place you're going to could probably introduce you to some options if you're interested. Good luck!


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

Hi MikaK9,

thanks for the post and encouragment. I have thought about Schutzhund, but I have never actually seen it. So I am going to spend some time at this facility learning and seeing all the different venues. I like watching agility, but dont really think I'd be interested in it. But who knows, this time last year, I had no idea that I would be getting ready to jump into herding....
Your right, I would think that his ball drive is a desirable trait for a working dog. His littermate sister is actually a cert. cadaver dog, so these guys should be able to do it all.


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## mikaK9 (Oct 8, 2007)

Sounds like you two should have fun! And that doesn't surprise me about the littermate.....that kind of ball drive is ideal for a detector dog


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## deborahgym2 (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi Southernbelle,
After extensive research and pros and cons about the e-collar I finally made my mind up to get professional help with it and give it a try, since everything else I did didn't work.
I have just started the e-collar myslef and it has been 2 weeks with tremendous success! Romy has a tendency to lunge at cars and I tried everything to stop and correct it. Treats, prong, sit position...I mean everything. I have recently torn cartiladge in my shoulder in the gym and the pulling when he would lunge would aggravate my injury to the max. I was at my wits end....Sometimes he would mind and then sometimes out of nowhere he would pick a car (the bigger the better) and fiercely lunge at it. My concern was if he were to get loose he would defenitely get hit by a car for he shows no fear. So, with that said...I took him to a professional trainer who uses the e-collar as a training tool for a 2 week boot camp and boy did it help. As someone else posted, it does not cure the problem on the spot but with continuing practice and perseverence it will eventually stop. 
He has been home now for the past 2 weeks and I put it on him everytime we go for walks. He sometimes has the urge but with the command "leave it" and the e-collar his urge goes away. Eventually they will learn to just leave it alone.
I forgot to charge the battery on it but I walked him anyways with just the prong and I was amazed at how much better he is doing all together. The extensive training with the e-collar and commands that go along with it were successful for me. No e-collar yesterday, and he was fine. Had some urges but firmly told him to leave it and he did.
With all this said, I turned to the e-collar only because the car lunging is a very frightening situation and that if it got out of hand it could cost my Romy's life. I will continue to use it until he has mastered not to lunge at cars anymore. Needless to say, I would not get an e-collar without a professional trainer showing me the correct way to use it.
I hope you find a way to get rid of his phobia. It's tough, Iv'e been there and am still there at times, but it can be done. Good luck, and just remember to never give up!
regards,
Debbie


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Has been great for Sofie for recall.


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

Thanks you guys! I am optimistic about it. We start Sat.

Debbie, thanks for sharing your experience. Glad to hear its working for you!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I'm a bit surprised that a trainer would use a shock collar when working a dog in herding. I can see some huge problems arising, if that's what's going to be done. If you have a dog focused on sheep and you shock at the wrong focus time, you can absolutely ruin the dog for any herding from that point on. 

I would highly recommend that you talk to other herding trainers before you make a step into using shock during herding training. The whole concept of herding is to rely on the dog's natural instincts and the concept of shock works against that. 

As far as your trainer goes, in my opinion a good trainer starts with the least aversive method and goes from there. You've got a dog with a high level of ball drive - do you really want to destroy that by going directly to a shock collar? 

And handing the control to a shock collar to someone else is another huge mistake, I think. Some really bad things have been done in the name of "training" and I've seen the results of that from time to time. I've seen dogs so traumatized that their personalities completely change. I've seen dogs afraid to go near an object because harsh methods were used at a time when they were focused on that object. I just have really strong doubts that using shock is the right option for you and your dog at this point, and highly recommend that you look into some other, more positive trainers before choosing one that so readily goes to an aversive method.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestAs far as your trainer goes, in my opinion a good trainer starts with the least aversive method and goes from there. You've got a dog with a high level of ball drive - do you really want to destroy that by going directly to a shock collar?
> 
> And handing the control to a shock collar to someone else is another huge mistake, I think. Some really bad things have been done in the name of "training" and I've seen the results of that from time to time. I've seen dogs so traumatized that their personalities completely change. I've seen dogs afraid to go near an object because harsh methods were used at a time when they were focused on that object. I just have really strong doubts that using shock is the right option for you and your dog at this point, and highly recommend that you look into some other, more positive trainers before choosing one that so readily goes to an aversive method.


Wow. You must have seen some really abusive training. All I can say is that you can train with an e-collar and retain every bit of ball drive and enthusiasm with a dog. Also, the right trainer can give corrections that are perfectly timed and communicate very effectively with a dog. I'm glad I have never seen anything remotely like what you are describing. No fun for me, and no fun for the dog which is a big problem.


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

I completey understand your concern aswell. I have a wonderful mentor who told me long ago to make sure I knew and was comfortable with any trainer I wanted to use.

We are NOT using the e collar while ON the sheep. We are using it to correct behavior and get better ob results BEFORE we go to the sheep.

As a matter of fact, this paticular trainer is fixing* a Shep right now that some idiot screwed up while using an ecollar. He is very experienced or he would not be training MY dog.... and thats the gospel!


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## chjhu (Dec 30, 2002)

It sounds like he is an awesome dog with all that drive. I rescued a police dog that was this ball-crazy and he was a total fun to be around (once we accepted the drive thing). I hope the trainer will figure out a way to put this drive to use in the training.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Normally I agree with ZeusGSD. However, in this case your comments are right on. 

I have mixed feelings about the E Collar, but would never allow a trainer or any other so-called expert to use it on my dog. An E Collar should be used for only specific, serious problems, and initially only the nick button. So if needed I will use it, but only in accordance with the advice I received from someone I highly respect. 

Futhermore, an E collar does affect a different part of the dog's brain, but no one has touched on this subject except me.

John, I am suprised at your respionse, because the comment about how to use the collar and when, came from Leerburg, but in regard to my son's labs.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestAs far as your trainer goes, in my opinion a good trainer starts with the least aversive method and goes from there. You've got a dog with a high level of ball drive - do you really want to destroy that by going directly to a shock collar?
> ...


Excellent post John! I too would never want to see the "training" using THAT word loosely...as described in that posters description. I would never allow anyon eto do such things to my dogs or anyone elses in my sight.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1 An E Collar should be used for only specific, serious problems, and initially only the nick button.
> 
> Futhermore, an E collar does affect a different part of the dog's brain, but no one has touched on this subject except me.


When should a prong collar be used? Only for specific serious problems? What about a conventional choke collar? Flat collar? 

I think there are many tools and methods available for training, any of which can be used poorly or well. Personally, I think if you wait for a 'specific serious' problem to introduce the e-collar then you are projecting the "harshness" of the collar based on your assessment of the need of its use. 

If I shove my dog angrily into his crate time after time as punnishment and leave him in it for hours with out a break then I am abusing the crate. That does not mean crates are bad, it means I'm an idiot. We can't stop idiots from having children, much less owning dogs - so there will always be horror stories.

I'd be interested in the part of the brain affected by the e-collar and exactly what studies show... since you "touched" on it.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepIf I shove my dog angrily into his crate time after time as punnishment and leave him in it for hours with out a break then I am abusing the crate. That does not mean crates are bad, it means I'm an idiot. We can't stop idiots from having children, much less owning dogs - so there will always be horror stories.


Exactly. 

I also think that there is some confusion on how many that train with an e-collar use it. I have not turned to an e-collar because I have a behavioral problem I need to fix. I am using it in SchH obedience training with my male Diesel. It has been introduced in a way that to him it is no different than any other collar. He does not seperate an e-collar correction with any other leashed collar correction or stimulation because it was introduced along with a collar correction so he knows that it is controlled and coming from me and he is only given the lowest level of correction possible that he can still feel while in drive. It is no different than a tug on a collar other than it can be timed better and be much more effective since he is a very hard strong dog. I cannot give him an effective prong correction without winding up. His attitude and drive are not affected one bit. Again, the e-collar is only a training tool that can be used humanely or can be abused just like virtually anything else. I have never once seen anything even remotely close to avoidance or even confusion when using the e-collar because it was introduced properly for a specific end result. Also, having a trainer use the collar in the midst of an obedience session is literally the equivalent of having a trainer walk behind you holding a long line. I set the stimulation level, and all he does is nick if out of position. The goal is to NOT have to nick, because the communication during training has been so clear to the dog that we cannot get him out of position ragardless of speed changes, turns and distraction. Again, I want training to be the best and most fun thing in my dogs life to do. I want him to drag me onto the field and make me drag him off all the while with ears and tail high having a blast getting to do all of the things his genetic instincts tell him to do. I cannot achieve this by just strapping on a "shock collar" and blasting away at high levels in an attempt to correct behavior. I am sure there are idiots out there who do it, and unfortunately some of the posters on this thread have seen it. Again, if it's not fun for my dog it's not fun for me.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

John, a few quick comments.

It was actually Ed that recommended using the E-Collar for only potential serious problems, and also the nick button. The advice was use it for only one potentail significant issue at a time.

I will add that Timber is a comapnion dog, not an schH GSD, and there maybe a difference. Our problem was the dog was too aggressive in some situations toward humans. The Collar was effective.

An earlier poster asked about the portion of the brain an E-Collar impacts. When Timber was being too aggressive I hired a well known behavior specialist to evaluate the dog. The person is booked for three years, worldwide, and I begged to get her to let me know her thoughts regarding my dog. Her analysis of Timber, and my responsibilites was great. But we also discussed the E-Collar, which she is opposed to. She is from Wisconsin so you might know her.

Probably over a year ago I posted a research study regarding the E-Collar, which was done in October of 2006. 

I don't have the time to find it and re-post; however, if the poster that asked me about the study would send me a personal E Mail, I wold be happy to provide the name of the behavior specialist that has serious concerns about the collar and poerhaps she can refer that individual to a few studies.

Finally, I have been criticized more then once for making specific recommendations regarding breeders, dog food, trainers, etc. on this board. 

So a personal E Mail is better.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

John, I've seen some terrible things done in the name of "training" and that makes me sometimes overly cautious in recommending to anyone online an aversive method, when I can't see their dog's problems or the trainer they're going to use. The potential for abuse rises when a corrective collar is on the dog, because the potential for creating pain rises. I've seen dogs screaming in pain all the way out to a dumbbell or training dummy because they're being shocked the entire way. I've seen dogs fearful of moving at all without a command because they've been corrected so harshly that it's taken away their will to do anything on their own. I've seen many dogs who were afraid to have their heads touched because they'd been ear-pinched over and over just so that the owner could teach a competition retrieve. I've seen instructors use such harsh corrections on student dogs that the dogs cowered on the floor and urinated. And I've heard a world-class schutzhund competitor laugh when talking about using a sharpened prong collar, describing how the blood spurted out. 

I agree entirely with the concept that no tool, in and of itself, is abusive. It's the person using it who creates the abuse. But as someone who has been teaching obedience classes for nearly two decades, I know that overall people find it much easier to use corrections than they do to use praise. I have really had to push people to praise and reward their dogs but see them often giving leash corrections (or worse) in order to try to gain control. So recommending to anyone online to go out and put an electronic device on their dog, even if given specific instructions on how to use it, tends to go against the grain for me as I know that for many there will be a temptation to raise the stimulation to "fix" problems that arise. At what point does training stop being training and starts becoming abuse? We don't know because we're not there to help the person.

Anyhow, I will continue to be overly cautious about telling someone to use a corrective device online, even though I may use the device at times myself. If someone is going to err, I prefer it be on the side of gentle training than on the side of aversive methods.

To the original poster - glad to hear that you're not using the collar when your dog is actually on the sheep. I misunderstood the context of the use. I know that when I first started herding, the hardest thing I had to learn was to shut up and trust my dog (I was told I was a control freak - all those years of obedience training made me think I had to continually tell my dog what to do .. *L*). Best of luck to you - and please use caution when allowing anyone to use an e-collar on your dog. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> 
> I will add that Timber is a comapnion dog, not an schH GSD, and there maybe a difference. Our problem was the dog was too aggressive in some situations toward humans. The Collar was effective.
> 
> ...


All five of my dogs are companion dogs trained via e-collar. It really makes no difference (IMO) what the dog is being trained to do so long as the e-collar is being used as John (and Lou) has explained.

I would LOVE to get my hands on this study done in Oct 06! If you could post the title of it, I will take the time to search for it myself. I keep hearing about a portion of the brain that an e-collar impacts but have seen NO scientific proof to back it up. Until I do, I can only rely on the study that I have that says just the oposite and was conducted in 2007.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

John, again an excellent post and explanation!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestJohn, I've seen some terrible things done in the name of "training" and that makes me sometimes overly cautious in recommending to anyone online an aversive method, when I can't see their dog's problems or the trainer they're going to use. The potential for abuse rises when a corrective collar is on the dog, because the potential for creating pain rises. I've seen dogs screaming in pain all the way out to a dumbbell or training dummy because they're being shocked the entire way. I've seen dogs fearful of moving at all without a command because they've been corrected so harshly that it's taken away their will to do anything on their own. I've seen many dogs who were afraid to have their heads touched because they'd been ear-pinched over and over just so that the owner could teach a competition retrieve. I've seen instructors use such harsh corrections on student dogs that the dogs cowered on the floor and urinated. And I've heard a world-class schutzhund competitor laugh when talking about using a sharpened prong collar, describing how the blood spurted out.


YUCK!

I can certainly understand where you are coming from. Points are not worth abuse to me. I would be happier never titling my dogs but having great attitude and control through obedience and protection that can translate to real life than I would be with SchH3 dogs that I have to draw blood on with a sharpened prong or light up with high level e-collar corrections that cause avoidance or ear pinches that make them hand shy. So far I have not had to make a choice like that yet, but if I ever have to then so be it. With a dog like my Diesel, I am presented with a choice on using an e-collar or sharpened prong when he is in drive. Regular prong corrections don't even register on him. I feel it is much much easier to control and to ensure that the e-collar is not abusive as opposed to a sharpened prong.


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## sepepper (Jun 14, 2007)

I train my dogs with the type of corrections that fits the type of training and situation and the age and hardness of the dog. 

I don't train with any corrections during triaing until the dog is mature. I train only positive up to this point. I can get most of the basic obedience done by 6 to 9 months. When I feel the dog is mature enough to deal with corrections, and that the dog totally understands the meaning of the commands, will I use corrections. At first I still use treats as rewards, but slowly wean them off treats. 

I do all training on short leash (6 ft) at first. Once the dog is doing everything correctly, I move to a longer (20 ft) leash. I use prong on the short leash. By the time I get to the long leash, I really only need the lesh to reinforse the recall. 

Once I decide the dog is working perfectly on long lesh, I go to off lesh. Now this is where I find the e-collar usefull. Someone once said - never give a command you can not enforse, and I believe in that, so I use the ecollar as a correction working at distance. 

Up to that point, I just find the prong to be easier to use. I find the ecollar as a valuable tool. 

On a similar note, I discourage a choke collar, as I find it could hurt the dogs neck. I think it is much more harsh than a correctly used ecollar.

Pepper.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I agree that those folks that use the E-Collar correctly are fine.

My concern, is most do not use the collar coorectly. As for the poster that requested the study on the Collar impact on the brain, perhaps they should do a bit of work themselves

Or just contact me, inasmuch I agreed to give them the name of the behavior specialist that does not advocate the use of the Collar.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> My concern, is most do not use the collar coorectly. As for the poster that requested the study on the Collar impact on the brain, perhaps they should do a bit of work themselves
> 
> Or just contact me, inasmuch I agreed to give them the name of the behavior specialist that does not advocate the use of the Collar.


WOW









I requested the "NAME" of this study your touting about negative impact of e-collars on a dogs brain not the study itself. Seems it would take less time to type a name than the 24 words typed above basically saying "if you wanna know find it yourself". I took the time to post studies I tout in favor of e-collar use over other training methods and it really was not that much work to post a link.

I personally don't have an interest in the behaviorists name (unlike the name of that study) because what he/she has to say is most likely opinion and I have my own.


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

The training went VERY well! James (the trainer) was very impressed with Camos ball drive.

We ended up using the prong collar not the e collar and boy, does it get results.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

Ahah! Camo is starting to realize that it's your ball is he?

Glad it went well.


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

LMAO! That is EXACTLY what he is learning!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Hey John, 

I believe you were also interested in that study that someone touted in reference to the use of e-collars and a dog's brain.

I found the darn thing on a site called "No SHOCK COLLAR Coalition" (The name of the site kinda sums everything up huh LOL) It was performed on RATS not DOGS and used true electrical currents in the tests not remote training collar type stimulation. Personally, I found very little in the study to compare to any type of e-collar training.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Timber1
I wonder about a behavioralist that is booked out three years yet doesn't want his/her name published in a public forum. Doesn't give me an overly confident feeling.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

I wonder about a movement that has a petition going that allows the same person to sign it over and over again.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: TracieHey John,
> 
> I believe you were also interested in that study that someone touted in reference to the use of e-collars and a dog's brain.
> 
> I found the darn thing on a site called "No SHOCK COLLAR Coalition" (The name of the site kinda sums everything up huh LOL) It was performed on RATS not DOGS and used true electrical currents in the tests not remote training collar type stimulation. Personally, I found very little in the study to compare to any type of e-collar training.


As usual, a little bit of information taken out of context, in the hands of someone with an agenda. Thanks for the accurate update!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Kinda explains the refusal of the OP to post the study huh.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1Futhermore, an E collar does affect a different part of the dog's brain, but no one has touched on this subject except me.
> 
> John, I am suprised at your respionse, because the comment about how to use the collar and when, came from Leerburg, but in regard to my son's labs.


I've never heard this. What "different part of the dogs brain does the Ecollar affect and how does it affect it?

I'm not a big fan of how Mr. Frawley of Leerburg uses an Ecollar. 

I think that if you wait until a problem develops before using an Ecollar, that you've waited for the problem to occur and now you have to fix it. I prefer using an Ecollar from the start and not allowing problems to develop in the first place.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1It was actually Ed that recommended using the E-Collar for only potential serious problems, and also the nick button. The advice was use it for only one potentail significant issue at a time.


If "Ed" is Ed Frawley, then based on the way that he uses the Ecollar and the levels of stim that he uses, it's good that he tries to minimize its use. However I use the tool at much lower levels and find that if it's used for basic OB as soon as the dog is old enough or right from the start as soon as you get an adult dog, the results are much better. 

My method of using the tool is NOT just giving the dog a correction when he's wrong but instead teaching him what the stim means; that when it starts he done something undesired and when it stops he's right. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1I will add that Timber is a comapnion dog, not an schH GSD, and there maybe a difference. Our problem was the dog was too aggressive in some situations toward humans. The Collar was effective.


Companion or aggressive makes no difference to me. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 An earlier poster asked about the portion of the brain an E-Collar impacts. When Timber was being too aggressive I hired a well known behavior specialist to evaluate the dog. The person is booked for three years, worldwide, and I begged to get her to let me know her thoughts regarding my dog. Her analysis of Timber, and my responsibilites was great. But we also discussed the E-Collar, which she is opposed to. She is from Wisconsin so you might know her.
> 
> Probably over a year ago I posted a research study regarding the E-Collar, which was done in October of 2006.


Neither statement addresses the question about what part of the brain an Ecollar impacts. In fact the stim from an Ecollar DOES NOT reach the brain. It travels in the skin between the contact points and a short distance into the skin. It goes nowhere near the brain. I've never read ANY scientific study that talks about stim affecting the brain.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: TracieI would LOVE to get my hands on this study done in Oct 06! If you could post the title of it, I will take the time to search for it myself. I keep hearing about a portion of the brain that an e-collar impacts but have seen NO scientific proof to back it up. Until I do, I can only rely on the study that I have that says just the oposite and was conducted in 2007.


Looks like I'm behind the curve. I don't know about the 2007 study you refer to. Can you provide a link?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I found the darn thing on a site called "No SHOCK COLLAR Coalition" (The name of the site kinda sums everything up huh LOL) It was performed on RATS not DOGS and used true electrical currents in the tests not remote training collar type stimulation. Personally, I found very little in the study to compare to any type of e-collar training.


Lou, I think someone finally hunted down the cited article and posted the above info...

http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollarcoalition.html


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Regarding the comments about Ed Frawley's ecollar methods, I can't agree. I bought his DVD on ecollar training and have been watching it in prep for using the collar. He never says that you should wait for a problem before using the collar. He also emphasizes the collar be used on the lowest stim level that will be effective for the dog, etc.

I think his methods make the most sense of any I've seen so far. I can't help but wonder if people are criticizing what they don't really know about.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Ledzep
I also get confused at the Ed bashing comments. I am not loyal to anyone but the dvd I got from Leerburg made a lot of sence. I didn't hear where he waits for a problem.

The outline in the dvd is clear and seems humane. Maybe not what the man practces but his preaching seems on the money.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

I think Ed's strong opinions and comments turn some people off. I don't agree with everything he teaches (such as no one touching his dog), but I respect his opinion and just disregard the parts I don't wish to follow. Training a family pet is different that training a service dog, and I think he puts more of the latter into the former.

That's why God gave us brains and the ability to choose. ;-)


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeLou, I think someone finally hunted down the cited article and posted the above info...
> 
> http://www.baddogsinc.com/noshockcollarcoalition.html


I looked there MRL. One link was to the Schilder study (done in 2003, so it's not the study that was earlier referred to) and that link was dead anyway. Schilder has largely been discredited and my critique of it can be found here. http://loucastle.com/schilder.htm 

The other link was to a letter that referred to the Schalke study which was done in 2005. Schalke found,


> Quote: This led to the conclusion that animals, which were able to clearly associate the electric stimulus with their action, i.e. touching the prey, and consequently were able to predict and control the stressor, *did not show considerable or persistent stress indicators. * [Emphasis added]


It had nothing to do with "the brain" and neither did Schilder.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZep He also emphasizes the collar be used on the lowest stim level that will be effective for the dog, etc.


There's the catch. What he thinks is the "lowest stim level that will be effective for the dog" is FAR higher than what _I know _will be effective.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepI think Ed's strong opinions and comments turn some people off. I don't agree with everything he teaches (such as no one touching his dog), but I respect his opinion and just disregard the parts I don't wish to follow.


There's a thread devoted to his methods in this forum. In that thread I wrote,


> Quote: Its important to keep in mind that Mr. Frawley is a man who brags about having hit a dog in the head with a shovel THREE TIMES to stop it from fence fighting. No dog and no person was in danger. Fence fighting is just two dogs running back and forth on opposite sides of a fence, barking at each other. It's noisy and a PITA but no one can be injured. Yet Mr. Frawley saw fit to smash one dog in the head THREE TIMES with a shovel to stop it. He's hardly the "kinder and gentler" trainer that he likes to pretend he is.


But I don't wish to divert the discussion to Mr. Frawley. Here's the link to that discussion. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=552907&page=0#Post552907


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: TracieI would LOVE to get my hands on this study done in Oct 06! If you could post the title of it, I will take the time to search for it myself. I keep hearing about a portion of the brain that an e-collar impacts but have seen NO scientific proof to back it up. Until I do, I can only rely on the study that I have that says just the oposite and was conducted in 2007.
> ...


Hi Lou,

http://www.trainmypet.net/documents/white_paper.pdf

Same study on your website, just updated in 2007.

Also e-mailed you a couple of other links.

T


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> There's the catch. What he thinks is the "lowest stim level that will be effective for the dog" is FAR higher than what _I know _will be effective.


Your statement makes no sense. Have you watched the DVD? I have.... he never says "set it to this setting...". It will vary from dog to dog. No matter how many times I read your post, it makes no sense.


Here is the thing - I'm interested in people's advice, comments, and experiences using electronic collars for training. I have purchased an electronic collar and plan to use it. I don't care about anyone's opinion about whether they are evil... we're past that.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: There's the catch. What he thinks is the "lowest stim level that will be effective for the dog" is FAR higher than what _I know _will be effective.





> Originally Posted By: LedZep Your statement makes no sense. Have you watched the DVD?


Yes. Here's my review of it. Http://loucastle.com/books.htm 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep I have.... he never says "set it to this setting...". It will vary from dog to dog. No matter how many times I read your post, it makes no sense.


It's not necessary that he give a specific level to set the Ecollar at and nowhere did Isay that he says to do that. 

That video show several times as he determines the stim for several dogs. Several times it's clear that the dog feels the stim. _That's where I work. _But he says, (to the effect)


> Quote: "Some people work at this level [possibly referring to me and several others who manage to get the training done at THAT level, where the dog FIRST can feel it] but I like to go higher, to where the dog's head jerks!


 With my system that "head jerking" is a clear sign that the stim level is too high. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep Here is the thing - I'm interested in people's advice, comments, and experiences using electronic collars for training. I have purchased an electronic collar and plan to use it. I don't care about anyone's opinion about whether they are evil... we're past that.


I'm probably the biggest supporter of Ecollars on the Net. But I don't like to see them used improperly. I think that DVD shows not only improper use but it borders on abuse. 

Might I suggest that you take a look at my site. Lots of instruction and it don't cost a penny. Of course there are those who say "You get what you pay for." LOL.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Lou - thanks for the additional explanation. I do have Mr. Frawley's video, as it was basically the only one I could find on the topic. I think it's a shame that so many electronic collars are made and sold, yet good training seems to be scarce. 

I think that if used properly, the ecollar can be a wonderful "remote leash" and valuable aid to training and long term maintenance. Because I have never used one I recognize that I should seek out instruction and use care. I do appreciate all opinions and suggestions, but ulitimately must pick one general method to follow.

I have tried to contact a local trainer to find out if he offers ecollar training instruction, but no reply. I think I will be left to do it on my own.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepLou - thanks for the additional explanation.


You're welcome. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep I do have Mr. Frawley's video, as it was basically the only one I could find on the topic. I think it's a shame that so many electronic collars are made and sold, yet good training seems to be scarce.


The best video that I've ever seen is the one from Dobbs called "The Three Action Introduction." Unfortunately it's out of print. It sometimes shows up on EBay. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZepBecause I have never used one I recognize that I should seek out instruction and use care. I do appreciate all opinions and suggestions, but ulitimately must pick one general method to follow.
> I have tried to contact a local trainer to find out if he offers ecollar training instruction, but no reply. I think I will be left to do it on my own.


Many people learn best with a trainer "at their elbow." But I know quite a few people who choke and freeze in such a situation. My articles were written with an eye to those folks who either can't afford a trainer, don't have one near them, or want to do it themselves. They're written in a simple step-by-step fashion so that anyone who can read and follow instructions can use them to their complete satisfaction. 

Many people are afraid of Ecollar training because they've seen it or heard of it being done improperly. The main problem seems to be that too-high levels of stim are commonly used and so the dogs are hurt. But my system uses stim at the level where the dog first feels it. I know I'm only causing some minor discomfort, rather than pain, because of their reaction when they feel it. They blink, they look at the ground. They scratch as if they were bitten by a flea. Those are not the reactions of animals in pain. So if you decide to go this way you can be assured that you’re not going to "ruin" or hurt your dog.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

I agree completely that the level should be the minimum amount that can be felt, and have always planned to set it accordingly. I will search around and see if I can find your writings. Worth a good read even if I wind up not agreeing (and chances are, I will gather some useful information at the least). I believe in multiple sources of information and different points of view - from which I will develop my own.

Seems that dog training is a topic that people feel strongly about. Each trainer seems to feel their way is the only way. The truth is, I would rather do it myself than use a trainer, not only to save a buck, but I don't want someone to train my dog - just to help me learn to do it.

Do you think a 6 month old GSD is too young? I know my pup, and he seems to be mature enough and ready for it. He has had a decent amount of basic obedience training and I think this tool can take it to the next level.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

LedZep, I have always said that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that the third one is doing every thing wrong. Many of these trainers think their way is best only because they make a living off it, but there are several top trainers that have a training system and a passion for dogs. So you have to sort through the piles and see which ones are real, which ones are well lets say not knowledgeable only full of ???.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Hey Lou,

I found this site while looking for some other info....makes for interesting reading (or at least I thought so)

http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/showthread.php?t=12361

Positive Commercial Training Vs E-Collar Training Whose Kidding Who?


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Wisc.Tiger - you are certainly correct! I'm learning that if I keep reading "advice" and "traning how-to's" I will never make any progress, because each wants you to dismiss other methods and do it their way.

There is one opinion that is alwasy right though - and that is the dogs. If he is responding to the training positively then I know I'm on the right track.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Tracie, the only problem with that "study" is that it involves two different dog owners. And frankly, the one doing the positive training seems like she has no clue how to train a dog.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: SouthernBelleLMAO! That is EXACTLY what he is learning!


Back to the OP. 

All of a sudden that ball drive isn't so bad any more, is it? 

When you cap that drive and bottle it up the power that is built is all thrown into the obedience and can be a ton of fun to work with.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Agreed, two different dog owners. What I found when I read it was a dog owner very frustrated because she was not getting results that the OP in the study was getting.


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: SouthernBelleLMAO! That is EXACTLY what he is learning!
> ...


Its amazing what I was "wasting" before! He no longer picks up things to have ppl throw them... he dosnt need that stimulation anymore, because he understands that he will get enough through the training were doing.

Litterally in less than a week, this dog has gone from " spoiled show dog with *some* basic OB" to " trained show dog with potential in ANYTHING!"

I have been using the prong collar to let him anticipate my turns while we are in a full on gait. As if we were in a show ring. It helps b/c if he dosnt turn when I do, we could crash.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Sorry if this wanders off topic, and I did search - but has anyone used an ecollar to break digging habits? I'd like some advice on successful (or non) methods. Should you just make the correction with no verbal warning, so they associate the stim with the act itself?


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepSorry if this wanders off topic, and I did search - but has anyone used an ecollar to break digging habits? I'd like some advice on successful (or non) methods. Should you just make the correction with no verbal warning, so they associate the stim with the act itself?


I had a digger but what helped me was chew toys and lots of exercise. I'll leave it to the behaviourists here to give the reasons for digging but I suspect stress and boredom.


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## SouthernBelle (Mar 30, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepSorry if this wanders off topic,


Dont be. I'm learning from all the posts LOL!


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Well, I used the ecollar for the first time this weekend, after nearly 3 weeks off and on wearing it with no usage. One of the problems I wanted to address was hole digging. No amount of scolding or re-directing could stop him from digging a hole once he had put his mind to it, and the struggle to correct him manually often escallated to a battle of wills that I really didn't want to get into. I also want him to know digging is bad, whether he's being supervised or not.

So, while he was digging in his favorite new hole, I gave him a nick stim (had to go to 2 on a scale of 5 before seeing any reaction). He jumped back and looked at the hole as if it had bit him. After a minute he approached again... sniffed (I allowed this, sniffing is okay). The second he pawed at it, I gave another nick. He has yet to dig in that hole again or start any others. 

I purposely did this with no vocal command or correction because I want him to think it is the digging itself that causes the stimulation. I have also worked with "Leave it" a bit when he bites at a plant, etc. and it seems to be effective.

Haven't tried much with 'come', 'stay', etc. yet. 

Sorry for the double-post (I put this in another thread too)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Haven't tried much with 'come', 'stay', etc. yet.





> Quote:I purposely did this with no vocal command or correction because I want him to think it is the digging itself that causes the stimulation.


What method are you using to 'train'. Because from my reading you are already doing exactly the 'wrong' way for TRAINING. Without the guidance and assistance of us in the mix to 'train', and instead suddenly the collar is zapping (and if you are ever NOT in the yard and he digs is will NOT zap) what you end up with is inconsistancy and a confused dog.

I believe this is one of the methods that is why the e-collar can really mess up our dogs. And why I'm always saying GET A TRAINER to make sure we do it right.

Course I could be confused


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

posted with a


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee Without the guidance and assistance of us in the mix to 'train', and instead suddenly the collar is zapping (and if you are ever NOT in the yard and he digs is will NOT zap) what you end up with is inconsistancy and a confused dog.


Exactly. I don't ever want my dog to think anything just jumped up and bit him out of the blue. I want it to be clear that the stimulation is coming from me. I would train that in this situation with a long line on a prong along with the e-collar. Each time I wanted to give e-collar stimulation I would tug on the prong as well. Soon the dog would not differ between prong and e-collar stimulation and I can effectively give corrections that are clear to the dog provided my timing is correct.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepSo, while he was digging in his favorite new hole, I gave him a nick stim (had to go to 2 on a scale of 5 before seeing any reaction). He jumped back and looked at the hole as if it had bit him. After a minute he approached again... sniffed (I allowed this, sniffing is okay). The second he pawed at it, I gave another nick. He has yet to dig in that hole again or start any others.
> 
> I purposely did this with no vocal command or correction because I want him to think it is the digging itself that causes the stimulation. I have also worked with "Leave it" a bit when he bites at a plant, etc. and it seems to be effective.
> 
> Haven't tried much with 'come', 'stay', etc. yet.


I foresee some problems. What you're doing here is commonly called "aversion training." You're causing the dog some discomfort (sometimes pain – depending on how driven he is to do the behaviors you want to stop) to teach him that doing those things is uncomfortable (or hurts.) The problem will come when you start working on OB. It sounds as if you plan to use the Ecollar as an invisible leash rather than use my methods and that's fine. But you'll probably find that the dog makes an association between the previously used, relatively high levels of stim, and whatever level of stim he feels during the OB. If you're using a low levels for aversion training you'll find that the dog will try digging whenever he thinks he can get away with it. 

Had you gone the other way, taught the behaviors using my method and THEN used it for aversion training you'd not have this problem. 

You can reverse this but it's time consuming and I don't know that you're interested. 

You also can't use an Ecollar that has only five levels with my methods. There you'll need at least 15 levels.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDExactly. I don't ever want my dog to think anything just jumped up and bit him out of the blue. I want it to be clear that the stimulation is coming from me.


This is a basic difference my methods and some others. I never want the dog to know that the stim came from me. I want him to think that it came "from the universe." This has him "doing the right thing" (by my standards of course [and of course not including any moral judgment here]) all the time. If he associates the stim with you, I think that if you're not present he'll realize that he can do as he pleases. 

If he thinks that "the universe" brought the stim he'll think it's connected to _his actions _not whether or not I see what he's doing.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

You guys really confuse me. I don't mean that disrespectfully to any of you, because you have valid opinions and take the time to offer them. That is appreciated.

As far as finding a trainer, try living in Delaware some time. We just recently got touch tone telephones. We took the pup to a local obidience trainer but dropped out after half the classes because I really didn't like the "yank your dog as hard as you can with a prong collar" methods, that and if he fell a bit behind you were treated like a retard. I have tried to find a trainer who could help with e collar training - but as is evident here, even if such a person existed it is likely that everyone else would disagree with the methods used. The closest thing I have been able to find is Ed Frawley's DVD. 

Thus, I am left to figure it out on my own which is frustrating. I have to pick some method and go with it. If I am not using the method that any particular poster recommends, please forgive me. I'm sure I will make mistakes, but you can't stand in the yard with a remote in one hand and a book in the other and expect things to go perfectly. 

So far, it seems that when it comes to electronic collar training, everyone is a critic but no one is a teacher.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:So far, it seems that when it comes to electronic collar training, everyone is a critic but no one is a teacher.












Not true. We are all trying to 'teach' you. 

And the fact is, I don't ever nick my dog's with the collar (a dog new to the training) until I've spent a week OR SO re-reading all the books, internet, and DVD's that I have that explain what I need to do and so I will be 100% clear when I start.

If I was so unclear on how to train any method that I would have to be standing there with the book in one hand and remote in the other, maybe I need to wait a week and start when I am clear. 

There are TWO completely different ways to use the collar. 

1) set up your dog to fail and do wrong so then NAIL HIM WITH THE COLLAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bad dog bad dog and keep increasing BAD DOG!!!!

or 2) the way I prefer which teaches and TRAINS your dog. Setting the dog up to SUCCEED and to it right by being in the mix to TRAIN. The dog learns he's in control of the collar activation. He knows 100% what will turn it on and what will turn it off. Clear as a bell cause we did what we needed to TEACH him how to do right.

So PERSONALLY, I wouldn't be letting him dig and then using the colloar to correct (at possibly a very high level) when he did wrong. That is 'setting him up to fail' cause you have to have him dig (the wrong thing) so you can correct him. I don't choose to train that way anymore if I can help it.

In your situation I would use the 'training method' and just get him to 'come'. Cause he can't dig and 'come' at the same time. Or you can train a 'leave it' command starting out by using food/treats as the thing he needs to 'leave' and later have it be the holes.

Maybe you can start a different topic with the subject line 'E-collar trainers in Delaware/PA/MD area? You would only need to have a few privates for this. So if you had to drive a bit, or met the trainer 1/2 way, I know that would have value for me.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

MaggieRoseLee - thanks, and I don't mean to imply that everyone is not trying to help and offer their insights. I also vastly prefer to teach my dog with positive training instead of negative. He responds so much better to praise for success than to correction for failure. It also makes our bond better and makes the experience better for me too. 

The 'escape' method of training just seems counter-intuative to me though... stim the dog until he does what he's supposed to? That does not give him a chance to make a decision, and it seems it would teach him to obey a command when accompanied by the stimulation only. 

Other than the hole digging opportunity, I did work on "leave it" a little bit. He understands leave it... he just does not always choose to obey. 

I'm not sure I agree with the hole digging philosophy though (I'm considering all opinions, but I have my own as well). Unless he is trying to rescue me from a landslide accident, I can't think of any time that digging would be permissible. So, if I teach him to 'come' instead, or to play with a toy instead, all I am doing is temporarily diverting his attention. That does not teach him not to dig. That's like giving a kid ice cream so they will stop drawing on the wall. I want him to know that the act of digging is not acceptable and shouldn't be done whether someone is watching or not.

But that is just a side item really. My main objective is a bullet proof recall. Oddly enough, on the few occasions this weekend when I went into the yard armed with the remote and was ready to work on "come", he came on first or second call every time. I never used the stim. I need to add distraction to that process I think.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

LouCastle
But you'll probably find that the dog makes an association between the previously used said:


> Okay, that part actually made sense. I have used the collar only a few times over a few days. This is already irreversable?
> 
> My collar actually have 10 settings (but five numbers) [dot] 1 [dot] 2... and so forth. But if your method REQUIRES at least 15 then it sounds like you've designed a process around a specific tool and you don't intend it to be very universal. It also suggests that you intend to use high and/or full stimulation at some point which I hope never to approach.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:The 'escape' method of training just seems counter-intuative to me though... stim the dog until he does what he's supposed to? That does not give him a chance to make a decision, and it seems it would teach him to obey a command when accompanied by the stimulation only.


You need to stop using the collar for a bit. Put it on your dog to help with him not becoming collar smart, but no training.

And start just with the 'come' forget about the holes. 

And when you do start the training, keep in mind this is not about a quick fix. This is about both you and your dog learning a new training method, and ALL training takes time. 

You MUST really read up and understand completely the 'positive' training method. Because you have the dog on leash. Along with starting at the very lowest setting the dog still feels. And if that's the only level you ever have to use, cause you are training it well and your dog may be soft, then that's fine. All this initial training should NOT be at a level that should really bother the dog at all, they need to feel it, but nothing like a correction level. So while it may be thought of as an 'escape' method, when trained properly from the start, the stimulation level is so low and you are guiding the dog to do 'right' with the leash. So they are able to think, figure it out, and the lightbulb WILL go on in their brilliant little brains.

I personally do start with the dog fairly close, and I also STOP the stimulation the second the dog turns towards me (I have a little puppy party and praise then let the pup go again). I'm posting Lou's site though because though his method has the longer flexi, and he stimulates for a longer period of time, it's still the same idea in general and written very well. But it's the methodology that's important to remember.

http://www.loucastle.com/recall.htm

Low stimulation level to start, you have the leash to help guide/set your pup up to succeed, and it's about training the recall, not 'correcting' when they do not listen. And your TIMING is vital, you have to activate the collar and stop the activation at a consistant and predictable way that will start having your dog figure it out and the learning will begin.

Here's a ton more articles that you can read and continue to researchy and decide the method you will want to work with:

http://www.uwsp.edu/PSYCH/dog/obed.htm#elec


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepYou guys really confuse me. I don't mean that disrespectfully to any of you, because you have valid opinions and take the time to offer them. That is appreciated.
> 
> As far as finding a trainer, try living in Delaware some time. We just recently got touch tone telephones. We took the pup to a local obidience trainer but dropped out after half the classes because I really didn't like the "yank your dog as hard as you can with a prong collar" methods, that and if he fell a bit behind you were treated like a retard. I have tried to find a trainer who could help with e collar training - but as is evident here, even if such a person existed it is likely that everyone else would disagree with the methods used. The closest thing I have been able to find is Ed Frawley's DVD.
> 
> ...



Where in DE are you? How far from Philly PA are you? Obedient K9 Dog Training is about 20 minutes East of Philly in NJ not far off the turnpike or 295. That may be too long of a drive for you. Just an option if your really interested in learning e-collar training first hand. If it IS too far, I will research and try to find someone closer though I do not know anyone personally so it would JUST be looking up names on my part. Feel free to PM me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepYou guys really confuse me.


You're going to have to bite the bullet, pick a method that makes the most sense to you and go with it. Feel free to read what others think about what you're doing. If what someone says makes more sense than what you're doing, adopt their methods. The average beginner doesn't know enough to "mix and match" methods. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZepSo far, it seems that when it comes to electronic collar training, everyone is a critic but no one is a teacher.


It's kinda frustrating to read this. My website has about 40,000 words to teach people how to use an Ecollar. And I’m no more than an email away if something isn't clear.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepI also vastly prefer to teach my dog with positive training instead of negative.


Unfortunately it seems that you've bought into the language of trainers who use the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." The term "positive training" is nothing but a marketing device. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep He responds so much better to praise for success than to correction for failure.


The best training is training that uses a balance of reinforcement and punishment. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep The 'escape' method of training just seems counter-intuative to me though... stim the dog until he does what he's supposed to? That does not give him a chance to make a decision, and it seems it would teach him to obey a command when accompanied by the stimulation only.


Sounds like you've bought into the nonsense put out by the person who made the DVD that you mentioned. My methods do not stim the dog until he does what he's supposed to do. Instead, the dog is gently guided into the desired behavior and then the stim is shut off. It uses stim at the level that the dog can just barely perceive. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep Other than the hole digging opportunity, I did work on "leave it" a little bit. He understands leave it... he just does not always choose to obey.


I'll suggest that if he understood it, he'd obey. It may be that his drive to do it (whatever behavior you're talking about is stronger than your training has been. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep But that is just a side item really. My main objective is a bullet proof recall. Oddly enough, on the few occasions this weekend when I went into the yard armed with the remote and was ready to work on "come", he came on first or second call every time. I never used the stim. I need to add distraction to that process I think.


I'd suggest that you need to be able to guide him into the desired behavior in case he gets confused.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZep Okay, that part actually made sense. I have used the collar only a few times over a few days. This is already irreversable?


Virtually nothing you do with an Ecollar is irreversible. But it may take someone who's very good with the tool to get it done. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep My collar actually have 10 settings (but five numbers) [dot] 1 [dot] 2... and so forth. But if your method REQUIRES at least 15 then it sounds like you've designed a process around a specific tool and you don't intend it to be very universal.


The reasoning behind having at least 15 settings is to ensure that two things. One is that the lowest level is below where your dog first feels it. The second is to ensure that you have small jump between stim levels. You only have ten levels so each level is a 10% jump (up or down). I prefer a collar that has 127 levels. That means that each change in level is 0.8%. It make is much easier to find the exact level of stim that your dog needs. 



> Originally Posted By: LedZep It also suggests that you intend to use high and/or full stimulation at some point which I hope never to approach.


Sorry but this comment is off base. Having a large number of stim levels says nothing about using the upper levels.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Lou - thanks for all the responses (and the time taken to post them). I have read *some* of your stuff, just haven't made it through the volume of it. It is good stuff even if I don't agree with all of it. You're right, it is hard to try and mix and match - especially for a novice. 

I tend to be impatient, and being aware of that I am really trying to take the time to do it right. My comments above were not intended to disrespect anyone, just that the more research you do the more you find that no two "trainers" agree on anything and all are equally convinced they are doing it the right way. Same goes for car detailers too, so I'm not saying that to be harsh to trainers.

Last night we went for a walk, and I borrowed a method someone posted on this forum that I thought was a great introduction idea. I had his prong collar on with a short lead and the e collar set to the lowest level I think he can notice (1, which is second setting). Each time I gave a leash correction I also gave a stim. I think it was noticable to him, he seemed to respond differently than he usually does with just the prong collar. Shouldn't this teach him that the stim is a correction from me just like the leash pop?


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Sorry, I haven't figured out how to properly quote a section of a post... but Lou said: I'll suggest that if he understood it, he'd obey. It may be that his drive to do it (whatever behavior you're talking about is stronger than your training has been.

This may be somewhat true, but keep in mind this is a six month old working line GSD. He is very intelligent and very hard. I usually try to use his drive as a teaching advantage, but sometimes he is just... for lack of a better word... a brat. But you comment about his drive being stronger than the training, you are right in many cases - hence the purchase of the e collar. If things were going really well without it I wouldn't have bought it. Putting him on a long lead is nearly impossible because he fights and tugs at the leash to the point that no training can be done, it becomes all about who owns the leash.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

LedZep did you read Tracie's posting?



> Quote: Where in DE are you? How far from Philly PA are you? Obedient K9 Dog Training is about 20 minutes East of Philly in NJ not far off the turnpike or 295. That may be too long of a drive for you. Just an option if your really interested in learning e-collar training first hand. If it IS too far, I will research and try to find someone closer though I do not know anyone personally so it would JUST be looking up names on my part. Feel free to PM me.


PLEASE stop using the collar for a bit while you figure this all out. And contact Tracie for some help, or at least to talk this out.

*The problem is, you are right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* This is confusing for handler and dog. And there ARE different ways to do this. Mixing them together in our minds or in training is only going to slow the training and confuse our dogs.

If you bite the bullet and get a great trainer for a private lesson or so, you can't believe how FAST you will learn and how much clearer it will be. So both you and your dog will have this amazing connection in training, you won't be frustrated (I know I get frustrated), your dog will LOVE the lessons (really, my dog's love when I put their collars on), and they will really learn.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Wow, you guys are tough! My hand is still red from being smacked.

Philly is a bit too far to travel for dog training. Okay, way too far.

I finally got in touch with a trainer in the area that I have been trying to reach for awhile. I have an appointment next week for him to evaluate Kuno and discuss our goals etc. He does electronic collar training - and as a bonus, he also does agility training, which I'm interested in learning more about.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Wow, you guys are tough! My hand is still red from being smacked.


Sorry if you felt I was doing that. My intent was to do the best for your dog and it appeared you were getting a bit overwhelmed with all the info.

For me, it's always best to stop everything, take a step back and figure out how best to proceed. And that was the intent of my posts.

I'm glad you found a trainer (and I'm all about agility too). If there is an issue or problem though, many times trainers will drive and meet mid-way to train if distance is an issue. And Tracie's offer was very generous in trying to help:



> Quote: If it IS too far, I will research and try to find someone closer though I do not know anyone personally so it would JUST be looking up names on my part. Feel free to PM me.


so you do have other options if needed.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Thank you MaggieRoseLee


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Tracie - sorry for not thanking you earlier (meant to). I'm hoping to find a trainer that we can have a good working relationship with, and even though one or two sessions might be all we need it would be nice to have someone to call or visit with the occasional question or problem. Having to travel a distance to do that just doesn't make sense. It would be difficult, if not impossible.

But your helpful attitude is much appreciated!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZepTracie - sorry for not thanking you earlier (meant to). I'm hoping to find a trainer that we can have a good working relationship with, and even though one or two sessions might be all we need it would be nice to have someone to call or visit with the occasional question or problem. Having to travel a distance to do that just doesn't make sense. It would be difficult, if not impossible.
> 
> But your helpful attitude is much appreciated!


Your welcome LedZep. Good luck in your training.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Well, back to square one. Had the appointment with the trainer tonight:

We we arrived, I could tell by the look he gave us when we pulled up in the BMW and unloaded the dog that he was a different sort (must have figgered us for "city folk"). He practically sneered at us. Then, he told my wife to wait in the car with the dog and told me to come over and sit down (almost like he was giving me dog commands). Barely introducing himself, he asked some questions - being very proud that he was "frank" and didn't "sugar coat things". Keep in mind, we're meeting this guy for the first time and we're two minutes into it.

Then he took one of his dogs to demonstrate what he can accomplish. The dog did a perfect heel, sit, down, stayed until released, etc., all the great stuff we want our dogs to do... except the dog looked terrified the whole time, like if he stepped out of line he was going to get a baseball bat taken to him. The dog had no spirit or personality, was horribly ungroomed, and scared looking.

Then he lectured me about what a brat my dog was, and how little I knew about training. Then he tells me that he'll take my dog for 14 days, during which I'm allowed to call every third day for status reports... etc... etc.... NO THANK YOU. All due respect, but I am not interested in having my beautiful young GSD beaten into submission - I would rather spend his life apologizing for his transgressions.

There might be one more possible trainer in the area, and if not then it will be up to me to watch videos and do it myself without a pro to help.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Yikes!

Your instincts served you well there. Definitely a trainer to avoid.

There's a "Finding a Trainer" section here on the board. Maybe post your general location and ask for recommendations for trainers in your area. There may be more options than you're aware of, and getting referrals from other GSD folks is always a good thing.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Thanks Chris (gee, all the really good people are in Michigan). There is a woman in our neighborhood with a doberman and a smaller dog (forget the breed) who takes hers to agility in another nearby town. She says they also do training and such... might try that out.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I'd still recommend contacting the person Tracie know. THEY may know someone closer.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Hmm, the asking your wife to wait in the car while he has a "man" talk is obnoxious enough by itself. 

Sad to think there are people out there who get away with stuff like what he does, and sad that there are people out there who don't know any better. 

Glad you saw through it all.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeI'd still recommend contacting the person Tracie know. THEY may know someone closer.


I might give it a try if the other does not pan out. But logistically I can only travel so far for this. Most traininers don't offer weekends either, so you have to squeeze it in on evenings. 

So far, the Leerburg videos are the ONLY ones I have seen that really show you how to do the training. I will probably wind up following them and doing my best alone. All other videos (including popular whispery TV shows) show you only the before and/or the after - but never the HOW in the middle. They make it look like magic... here is a dog with training or behavior problems... now, here his is all better... voila! That is mildly entertaining but not at all helpful.

I'm also not interested in putting my dog in a boarding/training environment. I don't need my dog to obey someone else.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

LedZep, I think my TriTronics collar came with a training DVD, so if you go with that brand it may help. But it's not as good as a real trainer. 

Contact Tracie, the world of knowledeable trainers we like and recommend is a tight community. So many of them know and can recommmend others in different locations. Or have a schedule or life that may bring them closer than normal. But you can't know until you do the PM's...


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZep
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeI'd still recommend contacting the person Tracie know. THEY may know someone closer.
> ...


We offer weekends (2 hours on Saturdays and you can stay for both one hour sessions) and private lessons to suit your schedule.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

LedZep, would you mind PM ing me the trainer you visited with. I am wondering if it is at a facility that was holding a 2 day seminar with Robin McFarland that I wanted to attend last year.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LedZep
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeI'd still recommend contacting the person Tracie know. THEY may know someone closer.
> ...


I understand your frustration at not being able to find any videos other than Ed's, at the same time I suggest really reading Lou's site. His method is easier to use in the long run though it may start out being counterintuitive for you it begins to make sense as you follow along. It is actually a far more comprehensive lesson plan than you get with the video and for free too!!! 

While I wish it were in video format I understand that even the subpar production values associated with some other videos are a huge investment to produce.

As you move from step to step following the directions your dog will be learning valuable exercises for him to know but more importantly you will be learning how to use the collar and training system's principals that can later be applied to a variety of circumstances also your dog picks up a pattern of behavior that makes later learning go much faster. Its easy to follow and goes step by step starting with the first link on THIS page and working straight down.

I urge you to try this first as I feel it works much better (I've tried and seen both methods tried with varying results) and the use of this method will still allow you to use the other effectively if it fails but if you use the video method first this one will never be able to be used for your dog.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I have decided not to use an E-Collar, albeit I bought one. For normal training I can get my GSD to do fine without the collar. 

I realize the collar can be a faster training method, a few jolts of current and they catch on, but it is not right. Of course I realize that Mr. Castle and ED F. might disagree with the last comment.

The one qualification is if any of my three GSD's had any major behavior problems, I would consider the collar.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: TracieLedZep, would you mind PM ing me the trainer you visited with. I am wondering if it is at a facility that was holding a 2 day seminar with Robin McFarland that I wanted to attend last year.


Tried to. I guess your "mailbox" is full. ;-) Wish it told me that before I typed four paragraphs... arg!


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I have decided not to use an E-Collar, albeit I bought one. For normal training I can get my GSD to do fine without the collar.
> 
> I realize the collar can be a faster training method, a few jolts of current and they catch on, but it is not right. Of course I realize that Mr. Castle and ED F. might disagree with the last comment.
> 
> The one qualification is if any of my three GSD's had any major behavior problems, I would consider the collar.


I don't think anyone disrespects that choice. I would be happy to try and use a long lead to train, if I could stop him from biting, pulling, and chewing on it. What tool do you use when the tool you're using becomes the object of misbehavior?

Riddle me that Batman!!

That behavior gets me so mad I want to put the e-collar on him, turn it up to 1000 and fry eggs on his head.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> I realize the collar can be a faster training method, a few jolts of current and they catch on, but it is not right. Of course I realize that Mr. Castle and ED F. might disagree with the last comment.


LOVE that Timber1 wrote that cause that's our points about why education about the collar is so vital!









Because that is exactly the WRONG way the collars are used all the time. And that's exactly why dogs get really really really messed up! So Timber1 is right to not use the collar!!!! When used properly as a training method, you start (and continue) with the lowest level of stimulation the dog feels, way below a pain threshold. And if you continue to TRAIN properly, the dog is learning well and you may not have to raise the level much at all!



> Quote:I have decided not to use an E-Collar, albeit I bought one. For normal training I can get my GSD to do fine without the collar.


That's also a true statement! Why most of us really recommend dog classes and training. Because most of our dogs, when trained properly with a good instructor do not ever need the e-collars at all!









Now the fact mine did because the lure of the deer are greater than anything I had................


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> I realize the collar can be a faster training method, a few jolts of current and they catch on, but it is not right. Of course I realize that Mr. Castle and ED F. might disagree with the last comment.


Yes, it is a little faster than other methods but takes more talent than "sending a few jolts of current" to the dog to get them to catch on. (Inaccurate description at best) You actually HAVE TO TEACH THE DOG the commands. Strapping on an e-collar does not make your dog suddenly smart but we have had this discussion before. Lou and Ed are not the only ones that TOTALLY disagree with the comment.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: LedZep
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: TracieLedZep, would you mind PM ing me the trainer you visited with. I am wondering if it is at a facility that was holding a 2 day seminar with Robin McFarland that I wanted to attend last year.
> ...


[email protected]

I dont have anything in my PM box







Above is my direct email address. Sorry you lost all that typing.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Thanks Tracie. I'll send an email later from my home account.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeLedZep, I think my TriTronics collar came with a training DVD, so if you go with that brand it may help. But it's not as good as a real trainer.


I admit that I have not yet viewed that video. Since my operational assumption has been that "escape training" was not the best method, and knowing that is what would be shown. 

I don't think the day will ever come when I hear any two trainers (or even pet owners) agree that one method is the right method. So unless I want to postpone training indefinately, I need to decide which one I like and just do it, right or wrong. Left without training, my dog will suffer by being cooped up at home in his crate or fenced yard because I won't like taking him anywhere.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

That works







My phone and internet at home have been down since Sunday. I do my internetting from work LOL So if I do not respond quickly, that is why. Verizon told me I would have both up and running today but then, that is what they told me yesterday!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

LedZep I need to decide which one I like and just do it said:


> You are correct. You do need to start something. No where is it written you cannot try several methods, then pick and choose all the skills you have learned and come up with your own style or technique of training. A style that works best for you and your dog.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I wish I had the answer. This post has gotten so long, but I did try and go back and look at differing opinions. 

The kicker is you mentioned a long line, biting, chewing and all that stuff, but I was unable to find the exact problem, although I can assume. 

My dog's problem was chasing bikers, walkers, etc. even pulling me while leased. My breeder suggested that I try a pronged collar, high and tight on the dog's neck. Once he got aggressive, a few quick jerks, and yes enough to make him yelp, might resolve the issue. The bottom line is it did.

Sorry if Batman could not be more helpful.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1
> 
> Sorry if Batman could not be more helpful.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

Okay, well I have decided to take it upon myself and begin the electronic collar training. The first step (not counting the few times I've experimented a bit) was yesterday. A brief session of "heel" in the back yard. Had the prong collar on with short leash and the e-collar. 

I set the e-collar to the lowest setting, and gave a test nick to see if he could feel it. The only visible sign was a slight ear twitch, which should mean he is feeling the stim, but it's no more than a soft tap on the shoulder to him.

Each time I gave a leash correction I simultaneously used the nick button, never going off the lowest setting. I was tempted to work the 'come' command too, but remembered the rule of one thing at a time and kept the session breif - no more than five minutes.

My hope is that with this method he will quickly associate the e-collar to the leash correction, and then I can ween him off the leash.

We still have the biting/tugging/chewing problem with the leash though, so I have to take five minutes to get that under control every time.

Trainer, schmainer. I don't need to pay someone to show me how to jerk a leash or feed my dog treats.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*



> Quote:Trainer, schmainer. I don't need to pay someone to show me how to jerk a leash or feed my dog treats.


Wow, good luck for you......

I'm on my 3rd dog, one's a Champion the other's 1/2 way there. 

And my dog's appreciate me using a trainer, so I do. And when I get my next pupppy, I will. 



> Quote:I admit that I have not yet viewed that video. Since my operational assumption has been that "escape training" was not the best method, and knowing that is what would be shown.


FYI, those are the statements people make that freak me out! 'Assuming', not really finding out the truths. Not making an INFORMED decision. And instead just fumbling along with a mix of methods that make sense to them (or is easier). 

Instead of using the background and experience (REAL experience) from those that have already been in your beginner shoes and now know a better way.

Which trainer/method recommends starting the training using the 'heel' command? (heck, I know I don't know it all and would like to read up on new methods).


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*

All due respect, but if there was a good trainer in my area I would be using one. I took him to "obedience classes" and they were only mildly effective. The class was way too full creating too much distraction for a young puppy, the training method was to yank them off their feet, or hit them so hard (for sit) that you would bruise the dog.

I have watched the video that came with the collar (the above quote is a bit old), and the method used for introduction to the collar was very similar to what I am starting. I also have the Leerburg DVD on e-collar training. I know many here don't like Ed Frawley, but at least he offers tools I can use. Amd much of what he says makes sense to me.

I tried an interview with another "trainer", who turned out to be a barbarian. 

I think that an electronic collar can be much more humane and effective than jerking a dog around on a collar. I do think a lot of the opinions offered here, and have been reading the NILIF and incorporating that into our lives (he has questionable pack order issues). 

At some point I must begin serious training efforts or I will have an 18 month old dog over which I have no control. I don't want that.

I began with "heel" because he knows what it means already, does not always execute it well (opportunity for corrections) and figured it is a good way to associate the stim to the leash pop. The trainer in the Tri-Tronics video also started with 'heel', for what it's worth. I'd be happy to look at it again and give you his name.

The "classes" that we went to - the trainer never once said a word about pack order mentatlity, NILIF, ways to establish leadership, etc. What good is teaching the dog "when I say sit, you better sit, or I'm going to hit you really hard. And if you do sit I'll feed you candy", if you don't understand how to establish and practice good pack leadership. I think 99.9% of trainers are just making a buck and herding people through classes, pretending they learned something because Fifi will now sit and wait for her treat.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*

Quote:

"All due respect, but if there was a good trainer in my area I would be using one. I took him to "obedience classes" and they were only mildly effective. The class was way too full creating too much distraction for a young puppy, the training method was to yank them off their feet, or hit them so hard (for sit) that you would bruise the dog."

Seriously...if this were true...I would have reported that trainer......


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*

The trainer is well respected in town, and I don't dislike her at all. It just wasn't working for us, and I think the size of the class was the biggest problem. We stopped going after half the sessions - but what really disappointed me was that we didn't even get a phone call, no "just wondering why you stopped coming". This tells me that what she is interested in is cashing my check, not training my dog.

But she had an assistant that was much too loud and physical with the pups, and I was very put off by that. If I wanted to beat my dog into submission, I could do that without any lessons.

I'm getting the picture from this (long) thread that some people just don't like electronic collars (which is fine) and assume that my intention to use one is so I can find a quick fix or be abusive in some way (this I do mind). My intention is to use the e-collar as a remote collar - simple as that. A momentary stimulation will replace the leash pop. I have sought professional assistance, so that I can learn from someone's experience, especially with timing and methodology, but there are none I can find.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I have decided not to use an E-Collar, albeit I bought one. For normal training I can get my GSD to do fine without the collar.
> 
> I realize the collar can be a faster training method, a few jolts of current and they catch on, but it is not right. Of course I realize that Mr. Castle and ED F. might disagree with the last comment.
> 
> The one qualification is if any of my three GSD's had any major behavior problems, I would consider the collar.


what type is it and how much you want for it?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*



> Quote:I'm getting the picture from this (long) thread that some people just don't like electronic collars (which is fine)


Hope you don't think that's me. I love my e-collar for my dogs.

My concern isn't with the collar in general, it's with the training in specific.

Good luck.


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## Skittles42 (Jun 14, 2007)

I dont know if an e collar and shock collar are the same thing but I use a shock collar on my dog for barking at the dogs next door. My parents kept urging me to get one but i refused b/c i thought it was mean. I first got a citranella collar but that didnt work at all. When I was using the citranella collar on my dog my neighbor behind me opened her door and yelled at my dog to shut up. That made up my mind to get the shock collar. i know how barking dogs and owners that dont do anything about it is really annoying.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> 
> > Quote:I'm getting the picture from this (long) thread that some people just don't like electronic collars (which is fine)
> ...


I have been reading quite a bit of Lou Castle's materials. I'm going to give his methods a try. I'm sure I will need some luck to go along with it.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*



> Originally Posted By: LedZepI think 99.9% of trainers are just making a buck and herding people through classes, pretending they learned something because Fifi will now sit and wait for her treat.


OUCH! Good thing I am not trying to make a living at dog training cause I would be living in a cardboard tv box behind Best Buy. What I "earn" training dogs does not cover the gas it costs me to drive from my home to the training facility. I cannot speak for other "trainers" out there but I do it because of "dogs" period. I love working with dogs and I hate seeing dogs end up homeless because the majority of dog owners don't take the time to teach their dog the basics. But then look at the vast majority of kids in our society. Most have no manners so how can one expect a person to teach their dog if they cannot teach their kid!

Perhaps before lumping all trainers in the "make a buck" file, perhaps you would like to take that 45 minute drive to NJ and watch one of our classes on a Saturday or weekday evening. Watching a class will cost you nothing but your time.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*



> Quote: I think 99.9% of trainers are just making a buck and herding people through classes, pretending they learned something because Fifi will now sit and wait for her treat.


All the best trainers I know have to have a real day job cause they make so little from training. Which is a shame, but reality.

Course there are dog trainers that aren't as good as others...like everything else.


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## LedZep (May 4, 2008)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*

Tracie - no personal offense intended. I like your analogy about the raising of children, which I agree with completely. People are so concerned with other things in life that they can't be bothered to parent (after all, that's what TV and video games are for, right?). 

I grew up with a GSD and have had two previous as an adult. When we decided to get this new puppy I made a decision that I wanted to do a better job of training, for the sake of the dog's confidence and quality of life - and for ours. I immediately sought out training options. I have read several books, countless web pages, bought videos, etc. I am beginning to think that my key mistake is too many sources of information, which are confusing the crap out of me. Probably better to pick the worst possible method and stick to it than to bounce around - confusing both me and the poor pup.

We took him to obedience classes held by the most popular local trainer, a very nice lady who has been in business for many years. The class was way too full, especially for puppies. I had some problems with some of the methods (hard hitting on the rear end to teach 'sit' for example), and we just weren't getting much from it. I admit some fault in that at the time we were not able to spend as much time practicing and reinforcing as we would have liked. But we stopped going after about half the classes. I was very disappointed that the trainer didn't even call us to find out why. For all she knows the dog was hit by a bus. That convinced me that it is all about herding people through and collecting money. I am willing to pay good money to a good trainer, but there are none around me. 

New Jersey is just too far away. I'm sure a visit would be nice and I might wish I could come there for training, but the logistics are just impossible.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

*Re: E Colar Experiences? (Trainer, schmainer)*

If you follow Lou Castles articles you will be fine. Dont be afraid to ask questions either. 

With gas prices the way they are now, I cannot and do not expect anyone to travel far.

I will keep my eyes/ears open for any upcoming E-collar seminars in our area and let you know if I hear of any. Last year, Robin McFarland had a two day intro to e-collar training in Maryland. It would be and EXCELLENT opportunity for you and your dog to learn the basics.


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