# Dog DNA Test



## lkellen (Dec 4, 2012)

Has anyone given their dog a DNA test? What would be the best to buy? I found a "Wisdom Panel DNA Test" at Petsmart, but wanted some opinions?!

My girl is supposedly mixed with Malamute-but I don't see it..


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

We had a free DNA test sent to our clinic. We decided to use it on the vets pit bull. She came back as being a basset hound. I don't have much faith in them.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Long but good info!
Dog breed genetic tests put to the test - VIN

Also, why it makes this less than believable: http://sheltermedicine.vetmed.ufl.edu/li...ds/dna-results/

This post on a shelter medicine website where they showed pictures of dogs, the DNA results, and the shelter staff guesses as to breed, but they presented it as if the DNA results were definitive. But that doesn't seem like it is so.

A friend who is a scientist explained to me why they are not fully accurate but I didn't completely follow it!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

An adopter of ours had their dog tested and he came back part Saluki. 
Um...yeah, because there's Saluki's running everywhere out here in the country. 
I'd save my $$ if it was me, too.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I recently had a woman bring me what looked like a Labradoodle. She'd had the DNA test done and it came back Poodle, GSD, Irish Wolfhound, Golden Retriever, and some kind of Terrier.  

She was convinced the test was accurate and even told me how the dog's physical and behavioral traits could be traced to each breed. "That's the Terrier in him", she'd say when I remarked about the coarse wiry hairs in his coat, and "that's the Retriever in him" when I talked about the soft cottony hairs in his coat. 

Here's the dog... his matting was so extensive that I had to peel it off little by little with the clippers, and it came off in one big piece. The owner was clueless about that, too.


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

The good news is that DNA has traced 70% of all European men back to stone age hunters. The bad news would be that all dogs could be traced back to a few common ancestors. Problem is, these canine DNA reports link dogs to certain modern breeds instead of the ancestors of these breeds. 

These tests may be so good that they pick up obscure dogs that were in the ancestry while men still lived in caves or they may be just flat out wrong. My sister has littermate Weimaraners, very typy dogs with flawless AKC pedigrees and AKC registrations. Their DNA came back reporting these dogs were a mix of breeds including 5% Fila Brasileiro and 10% Scottish deerhound, and 15% Entlebucher dog. What are the odds that there would be any of these rare breeds and what are the odds that the ancestry would be different in littermates. If the DNA reports were worded a little differently, I would not object so much. They could say your dog has 15% the same ancestry as the Entlebucher dog breed. I could believe these dogs had a common ancestor but not that my sister’s weimaraners had sires, grandsires or great grandsires out crossed with these breeds.


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## lkellen (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks, I decided I'll save my money- I love her regardless!


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> An adopter of ours had their dog tested and he came back part Saluki.
> Um...yeah, because there's Saluki's running everywhere out here in the country.
> I'd save my $$ if it was me, too.


In defense of the test, the fact that Salukis are such an old, breed _could_ lead to residual traces of their genetic structure in more modern breeds.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

lkellen said:


> Thanks, I decided I'll save my money- I love her regardless!


Yeah, only do it if you have money to spare and for entertainment purposes only. I had a dog come back with both St. Bernard and Shih Tzu! (among others)


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## SueDoNimm (Jul 3, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Also, why it makes this less than believable: http://sheltermedicine.vetmed.ufl.edu/li...ds/dna-results/
> 
> This post on a shelter medicine website where they showed pictures of dogs, the DNA results, and the shelter staff guesses as to breed, but they presented it as if the DNA results were definitive. But that doesn't seem like it is so.
> 
> A friend who is a scientist explained to me why they are not fully accurate but I didn't completely follow it!


Some of those are results are so ridiculous! Particularly dogs 93 and 119. I've considered testing my little Chihuahua/terrier mix dog (I'd probably do it if was like $10) but judging from that her results would probably come back as Bulldog, Tibetan Mastiff, Irish Wolfhound, and American Staffordshire Terrier.

It looks like if the dog is a mix of any more than two purebreds the results are completely off.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Some brands specifically say they can't identify purebred dogs (for some convoluted reason ), which told me everything I need to know. You mean it doesn't work if you can prove the parentage?! 

One of the problems is that only one dog breed has had its DNA fully sequenced (Boxers, if I remember right). Another problem is that many breeds share common DNA markers, because they're very closely related. In fact, a lot of scientific study into canine DNA winds up emphasizing how closely related seemingly diverse breeds are. So between a lack of complete understanding of each breed's genetic markers, and then a lot of shared genetic markers between breeds, it starts to become really clear why those tests aren't trustworthy in the least.

I agree they could be fun if they were cheaper. I've thought about getting one for one of my dogs who often gets called a coyote, just so I could have a piece of paper that says he's 100% domesticated.  But then I don't really care enough to shell out the cash. It's kind of like psychic readings--good for fun and novelty only, and stands a good chance of telling the gullible what they want to hear!


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## lkellen (Dec 4, 2012)

RowdyDogs said:


> Some brands specifically say they can't identify purebred dogs (for some convoluted reason ), which told me everything I need to know. You mean it doesn't work if you can prove the parentage?!
> 
> One of the problems is that only one dog breed has had its DNA fully sequenced (Boxers, if I remember right). Another problem is that many breeds share common DNA markers, because they're very closely related. In fact, a lot of scientific study into canine DNA winds up emphasizing how closely related seemingly diverse breeds are. So between a lack of complete understanding of each breed's genetic markers, and then a lot of shared genetic markers between breeds, it starts to become really clear why those tests aren't trustworthy in the least.
> 
> I agree they could be fun if they were cheaper. I've thought about getting one for one of my dogs who often gets called a coyote, just so I could have a piece of paper that says he's 100% domesticated.  But then I don't really care enough to shell out the cash. It's kind of like psychic readings--good for fun and novelty only, and stands a good chance of telling the gullible what they want to hear!


I wanted to try it since apparently Remy is mixed with a malamute. But I don't think the shelter EVER saw the mom or dad considering she was from a "seized home" and when I think seized home, I think backyard breeding/puppy mill, etc... I'm just glad they got my baby and her litter out of whatever they were about to go through!!

However, I have had so many people say she looks full GSD. I just thought I could try it and see since she "may" be mixed with something and I would love to see the temperament of what she could be mixed with, but with all the responses and reviews I've read, I've decided not to. I don't care if she's purebred.. I love her all the same  


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

DNA tests should never be taken seriously. They are for folks who have the money to spend and want a good laugh.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

They were offering DNA testing for free at the club where we train. It was not about breed identification though. They were studying genetic diseases in dogs.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Specific DNA tests for reasons like that, or to identify the individual animal (for example, I have an Arabian horse and registered Arabians are DNA-tested to verify the parentage, since both parents also have DNA on file if they're young enough), are valid. It's just the general "identify the breed" tests that are unreliable to the point of uselessness.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

They are fun, but don't put much stock into the results. I had one dog tested by the 3 companies and all 3 had something different!


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## lkellen (Dec 4, 2012)

Verivus said:


> DNA tests should never be taken seriously. They are for folks who have the money to spend and want a good laugh.


I wish they weren't 80 bucks a pop! I'd love to see what kinda things would show up on Remington! 



Nigel said:


> They were offering DNA testing for free at the club where we train. It was not about breed identification though. They were studying genetic diseases in dogs.


Did you partake in it? 



RowdyDogs said:


> Specific DNA tests for reasons like that, or to identify the individual animal (for example, I have an Arabian horse and registered Arabians are DNA-tested to verify the parentage, since both parents also have DNA on file if they're young enough), are valid. It's just the general "identify the breed" tests that are unreliable to the point of uselessness.


So, even if came back with some crazy animal mixture, it could be true then?



spiritsmom said:


> They are fun, but don't put much stock into the results. I had one dog tested by the 3 companies and all 3 had something different!


Aww! What results did you get??


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## Piper'sgrl (Apr 20, 2012)

Remy is a cutie but I see absolutely no malamute in her....GSD and something else maybe but she looks gsd to me.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

I wish I could buy one just to see what it says. Cause I know my GSD is juts GSD


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

lkellen said:


> So, even if came back with some crazy animal mixture, it could be true then?


I'm not sure what you mean here.  For the example I used with the Arabian horses, what they do is match individual markers in the DNA by comparing the parent DNA with the offspring. DNA is like a fingerprint, unique to each individual, and some things are passed on from parents, so you can compare the samples and get a reasonable idea of parentage (obviously a huge oversimplification). So it doesn't tell you anything about what breed the animal is, just that this one horse is the offspring of these two particular horses. So since those two horses are purebred Arabians, so is the offspring. If one or both of the parents didn't match, it wouldn't tell you anything about who the actual parents _were_, just who they were _not_. The horse could be a purebred from two other Arabians, or it could be a Clydesdale for all the DNA test would tell you. 

With DNA testing for genetic diseases, again, they're just looking at a specific part of the DNA. So let's take a common problem in GSDs, hip dysplasia.* They would take a DNA sample from a dog and look at the particular genetic markers they have identified as those that affect dysplasia. From this, they will be able to determine the likelihood of the dog passing it onto its offspring. However, it still doesn't tell you anything about what breed the dog is--hip dysplasia is found in all sorts of different breeds and the presence or absence of it doesn't tell you anything.

I guess a general way to explain it is that DNA testing (in this sense) is all about comparing samples to other samples. The problem with breed tests is that many of the markers they use aren't actually accurate (as in, they're shared by many breeds), and can vary between lines within a breed, etc. So while there's always a _possibility_ that the test is accurate, in reality you're just as likely (and possibly more so) to be accurate by making a visual assessment and guessing based on that.

*I don't actually know that much about the state of genetic testing in dog breeds as I don't breed and have rescued all my dogs so never had to learn, but I didn't want to use another horse example.  The process is the same, I just don't know exactly what conditions have a test.


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## lkellen (Dec 4, 2012)

RowdyDogs said:


> I'm not sure what you mean here.


Lol, I meant like just random breeds of dogs coming back. Haha, not like the test coming back with different types of animals. LOL, there would be something seriously wrong!


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

As Rowdy dogs said, they often test animals to prove who the parents are. Especially in the bully breeds, often the pups are dna tested to prove parentage, mom and dad really are the parents of that puppy. But it is not at all testing the breed of the dogs, just proving parentage. 
I have almost zero (you just gotta have a little though lol) faith in breed dna testing, but I'd love to have the money to blow just to get that good laugh. I would test my supposedly border collie/rottweiler/labrador and my german shepherd, whose parents, grandparents, great grandparents and beyond I have knows since puppies and grew up with. I'd love to see those dna results haha.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

With Spirit she came back a combination of Saluki, Scottish Terrier, Border Collie, Basset Hound, GSD and a couple others I don't recall. She is a 40 pound Sheltie looking mixed breed, but Sheltie never showed up!


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

lkellen said:


> Lol, I meant like just random breeds of dogs coming back. Haha, not like the test coming back with different types of animals. LOL, there would be something seriously wrong!


LOL I didn't think you meant other species!  I was just a little confused because the specific types of testing I said were valid (verifying parentage and testing for genetic disease) had nothing at all to do with breeds, so there is no way for those tests to "come back" with any mix of breeds. Basically, my point was that so-called breed markers are mostly a bunch of BS at this point, but that genetic testing does have other valid uses. 

I was thinking you might have misunderstood what I was saying about the Arabians, where it's nothing about any specific Arabian breed markers, but rather a verification that the horse is in fact the offspring of two registered Arabians. At this point, those registered Arabians may also be DNA-verified offspring of two other Arabians, or they may just be DNA-typed. Basically, when the program was adopted, registered breeding horses had DNA samples taken but they were known to be purebred Arabians because...well, they were known to be purebred Arabians. It has nothing to do with the DNA identifying them as such, just standard record keeping.*

Either that, or that you might have misunderstood the genetic disease thing, but the thing is that most genetic diseases in dogs aren't specific to one breed. So multiple breeds could have the genes for a given disease like hip/elbow dysplasia, degenerative myelopathy, etc. Actually, this is one area where dog breeding seems to diverge from horse breeding (which is where my experience lies, in case you can't tell by my equine examples ), because in horses many genetic diseases are quite breed-specific (for example, SCID in Arabians, HERDA and HYPP in Quarter Horses). In dogs, you see many of the same diseases across several breeds. I'm going to have to look into why that is, because it's interesting and I just realized it (and it's also very possible that I'm missing something here). And while breed-specific genetic diseases might give you a clue about the breeds involved (for example, if a horse has HERDA or HYPP, he's almost certainly got at least some Quarter Horse in him), it can't say for sure what breed(s) the horse comes from. If he's HYPP N/H (in other words, got it from one parent, didn't from the other), all that tells you is that one parent probably had some Quarter Horse in him/her somewhere. It could range to a purebred Quarter Horse whose other parent just came from lines that didn't have HYPP or maybe did but the parent was lucky enough to not inherit it, to a horse with just a bit of Quarter Horse blood but whose QH parent was unlucky enough to inherit HYPP and pass it on to the foal. Either way, you'd get an N/H result. And there are plenty of N/N horses, so the absence of HYPP doesn't prove anything, either.

Anyway, a huge oversimplification, various genetic diseases/inheritances work differently (genetics is very complex), etc. but it hopefully gives an idea of why you can't really identify breeds through DNA testing.

*Incidentally, there was a scandal not too long ago but pre-DNA-testing where a non-Arabian stallion sired a lot of successful and supposedly purebred Arabians because of fraud on the part of the stallion owners and trainers. While the fraud was discovered and all the offspring lost their registration, in theory that could have happened in other instances and not been detected. In that case, the DNA test would not reveal anything, because it would still just show that the foal is the offspring of those 2 parents. If one of those parents had, say, a Saddlebred parent prior to DNA testing, no one would know and there would be no way to prove it. However, DNA testing does help prevent another scandal of that sort, because it would be nearly impossible to fake (basically, you'd have to plan the scandal from the moment you registered the young foal, since DNA samples are required with registration...and with the difficulty of predicting a superstar stallion, it's not really practical), and if it was pulled off, it would be very easy to prove.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

So apparently I take too long to edit late at night...  In my paragraph about genetic disease, the last sentence was meant to read, "And there are plenty of _purebred_ N/N _Quarter Horses_, so the absence of HYPP doesn't prove anything, either." (changes in italics)

Hope that makes more sense.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

Bumping this old thread.

Has anyone had any more recent results? I am thinking of getting a DNA test for High Jinks. I've had enough dog people tell me they see no Malinois at all in him (which is interesting because I get quite a few NON-dog people ask me if he's a "Belgian" LOL!)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I recently had a woman bring me what looked like a Labradoodle. She'd had the DNA test done and it came back Poodle, GSD, Irish Wolfhound, Golden Retriever, and some kind of Terrier.
> 
> She was convinced the test was accurate and even told me how the dog's physical and behavioral traits could be traced to each breed. "That's the Terrier in him", she'd say when I remarked about the coarse wiry hairs in his coat, and "that's the Retriever in him" when I talked about the soft cottony hairs in his coat.
> 
> Here's the dog... his matting was so extensive that I had to peel it off little by little with the clippers, and it came off in one big piece. The owner was clueless about that, too.


That must be the Komondor in him


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

wildo said:


> Bumping this old thread.
> 
> Has anyone had any more recent results? I am thinking of getting a DNA test for High Jinks. I've had enough dog people tell me they see no Malinois at all in him (which is interesting because I get quite a few NON-dog people ask me if he's a "Belgian" LOL!)


Belgian Shepherds, German Shepherds and Dutch Shepherds are all closely related in their origin. It might be impossible to truly differentiate those breeds with DNA.


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

FlyAway said:


> Belgian Shepherds, German Shepherds and Dutch Shepherds are all closely related in their origin. It might be impossible to truly differentiate those breeds with DNA.


Oh- good point! I didn't consider that. I just checked Wisdom Panel and it does list all the Belgians independent of GSDs. http://www.wisdompanel.com/breed_count_matters/breeds_detected/


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I want to try with Indy but don't have $80


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

I would spend my money on a DNA test for the MDR1 mutation before anything else DNA related.

Test your Dog for the mutant MDR1 gene. Information from the VCPL at Washington State University.

I would certainly want to know if any emergency drugs or critical care drugs would be able to kill my companion. Not to mention heartworm preventative.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

wildo said:


> Bumping this old thread.
> 
> Has anyone had any more recent results? I am thinking of getting a DNA test for High Jinks. I've had enough dog people tell me they see no Malinois at all in him (which is interesting because I get quite a few NON-dog people ask me if he's a "Belgian" LOL!)


I have both GSD and mals, only thing I see personally is maybe the coat coloration, although my mals are much more "red." However they are also both KNPV so while they look similar, one is much more stocky, but neither one look like your dog. He looks mostly GSD to me, but no one will ever know for sure, call him whatever you want


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

The picture is over exposed. He's more red than blonde- though he's not dark like KNPV Mals.


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## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

He looks a lot like Ossie. I always called this color 'fawn'.


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

wildo said:


> Oh- good point! I didn't consider that. I just checked Wisdom Panel and it does list all the Belgians independent of GSDs. http://www.wisdompanel.com/breed_count_matters/breeds_detected/


That's pretty funny since the Groenendaels and Tervurens routinely come from the same litter.  They must have found something to tell them apart.

Here you can even see them bred together, which can be done in other countries. 
http://www.angelfire.com/ab2/penikkabelgians/Clitter.html


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I don't know how the DNA test works, and I didn't claim to know. I see that the "professional" version also includes "type" in the results while the cheaper home version does not. Perhaps they found a way to differentiate them. I have no idea... The list could simply mean that those breeds are identifiable. If Groens and Tervs differ only based on their coat length and color- then I see no reason why one wouldn't be able to identify it based on DNA- the same DNA that controls coat length and color... :shrug:


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Let's put it this way, according to her BioPet profile, Ilka's DNA is a mixture of 37-74% Bulldog, 20-36% Italian Greyhound, and 10-19% each American Staffordshire Terrier and Collie. Um, yeah. See any Bulldog? 

Ilka's new collar 006 by RosemaryBE, on Flickr

CAT & Sealy, TX 3-30&31- 2013 040 by RosemaryBE, on Flickr


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