# Byb



## Debbieg

Interesting article


Why There Will Always Be Back Yard Breeders- “I have seen the enemy, and he is us” | German Shepherd Adventures!


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## onyx'girl

Who wrote that? The fb page had several good responsible breeders commenting on certain posts like that and they weren't doing anything other than stating the reasons why breeding should be taken responsibly and with care! They weren't being condenscending or rude, just stating the facts that others don't want to hear. And those breeders aren't selling for outragious prices or boasting about selling to the LEO's/military. I'm sure the breeders are done with that group, too hard to constantly try to educate.

It is frustrating to the ones doing it right because the ooohh's and aaahs of all the ignorant posters on the page. 
I agree with some points of that article, but whoever wrote it is biased against the breeders that are doing it right and leaning towards the ones that are doing it for other reason$ than being responsible. And there have been a couple posters, losing puppies because they have no idea how to whelp/raise a litter.


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## MichaelE

Good article.

Unless the market for BYB dogs can be destroyed there will always be the demand for them. And that demand comes from ignorance and no money.

They say, "It's just a dog, I'm not paying that kind of money for an animal" And it's because they don't care about training or any sort of competition, or maintaining the breed standard.

Most probably don't even know there is a breed standard for purebred dogs.

I don't know of any way to break the cycle. There will always be a demand for BYB dogs no matter what breed they are. It's just too iffy doing that with GSD's because of health and temperament issues.


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## Merciel

MichaelE said:


> I don't know of any way to break the cycle. There will always be a demand for BYB dogs no matter what breed they are.


Like the piece said, education is key.

I don't think we'll ever eliminate the demand, but surely we can reduce it. I think that's already happening across the country -- faster in some communities than others, to be sure, but I do think it's moving in the right direction.

What I'm seeing, in my own little corner of the world, is that the problem is hardest to tackle for dogs that don't really have a strong community of responsible breeders, chiefly the crossbred "designer dogs" like labradoodles. They aren't often found in rescue (and get adopted in a nanosecond when they do pop up), and they're not purebreds so they don't have a breed standard or a lot of breeders titling their dogs in any discipline.

I have a lot of friends who purchased labradoodles and they all went to BYBs, every single one, because they couldn't adopt and they couldn't buy from (what I would consider) a good breeder. They did their best to avoid outright puppy mills and they did as much research as they could, but that was the best option they could find.

_That_ problem I don't know how to solve. (Having people not get labradoodles in the first place would be optimal, IMO, but that's not happening.) But with a breed that has a strong and devoted following like the GSD, it seems a lot easier to resolve.


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## NancyJ

Well, some of the problem is also - there are people breeding to improve the breed overall and keep the standard *but* there are people breeding for skewed interpretations of the standard who may *have* all the tiles, show ratings, hip clearanges, etc.** and produce dogs potentially worse than the random outcome of BYB breedings.

I think that was one of the points of an earlier thread on this forum about the "value" of various titles/ratings etc. It has to go a lot deeper than that.

**while blowing off other significant genetic issues from long term inbreeding even if the particular puppy is not inbred for "x" generations but is "backmassed" etc etc


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## cliffson1

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: to the first paragraph of Jocoyn.


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## Lady Jenna

It is an interesting article. But here is my question: What defines a back yard breeder? 

I am in love with DDR dogs; I believe that these blood lines should be preserved. I intend to research them, and choose a breeding pair sometime in the next five years. If I have one male and one female, and breed one litter every couple of years, does that make me a back yard breeder? If my dogs are not titled, but come from good lines, with excellent hips, eyes, and elbows; are not protection trained, but are instead members of my family, does that by default make me a back yard breeder? I'm okay with it if it does, the reason I want to breed them is specific, to preserve these blood lines.

Or is a back yard breeder only those that put making money above the health and well being of the dogs? Because in my opinion, that makes them a puppy mill, even if they only produce a few litters a year.

A professional breeder, IMO, is someone who makes their living from dogs; training, showing, and breeding. These are the dogs that often cost thousands of dollars, and come with rudimentary training when you pick them up at 10 weeks.

Just below them (on the hierarchy in my mind ) are hobby breeders; those that love the breed so much, that they have puppies every once in a while. These are educated owners, with trained dogs that may or may not show. This is the group I would like to join, but not until I have learned enough not to make a mess of it. I know that you will never make money breeding dogs; between shots, vet visits, and the risk to your bitch, you're lucky if you break even. You do this because you love the breed, and want to see it continued in the right way.

Below this, and in my mind, just as bad as puppy mills, are the well meaning souls that breed their dogs because 'she should have a litter before we spay her'. It's the worlds worst reason to breed a dog, and often the results will (again, my opinion) end up in animal shelters.

At the bottom of the list are those that breed for profit, and like I said before, whether they produce 1 litter or 20, they are puppy mills in my book. So lets call a spade a spade. If you're breeding in your back yard to preserve the blood line, or to improve the breed, then I say, more power to you, even if you don't charge $2000 a puppy. If you're charging $100 a puppy because you're dealing in bulk, then that's a different story.


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## Merciel

Lady Jenna said:


> But here is my question: What defines a back yard breeder?


In my personal opinion? Good intentions + ignorance.

I'll use the labradoodle breeders I'm familiar with as an example. All of these breeders claimed to "love the breed" (which _isn't_ a breed, but that's a rant for another day) and viewed their pets as cherished family companions. All of them were completely ignorant of canine genetics, health screening, the importance of titling and trialing their dogs (not for the titles in themselves, but to learn how their dogs work), or even really basic puppy-raising stuff like early socialization. One of my friends bought a labradoodle who, at six months, had never been off the family farm -- not even to go inside the owners' house.

All of them were using a nice Lab plus a nice Standard Poodle, but that is _all_ they knew about their dogs -- that they were "nice." None of the breeding dogs were showing in any venue whatsoever, although since mostly they were AKC dogs, some did have titles in their pedigrees a few generations back. The breeders would trot these out proudly (you know, the old "champion bloodlines" thing) but, in the same breath, say it wasn't important to do similar things with their own dogs. They would say it wasn't important to screen their dogs' hips, eyes, elbows, or get any genetic disease testing done, because "hybrid vigor" would ensure all the crossbred pups were just fine.

I believe they weren't breeding (just) for money, although they probably were making some profit. I believe they genuinely do love their dogs and think of themselves as being well above puppy mills. But, despite good intentions, these people did not have _any_ idea what they were doing.

It's one thing to understand why a particular consideration might be important and make an educated decision to forgo it in light of other, competing considerations. It's another thing altogether to just have _no idea_ why titles or health clearances or pedigrees matter. To me, that ignorance is what makes a BYB.


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## Vaks

Merciel said:


> In my personal opinion? Good intentions + ignorance.


:thumbup:

Hélène


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## NancyJ

Lady Jenna ....... I guess I would say in your case preserving to what end? 

DDR lines will continue to be bred and a significant number of breeders are already using DDR stock so the lines will be preserved........so what would you be adding? How would you know your dogs are the cream of the crop and producing dogs that would be bred to by responsible folks down the line?

So many "black sable Czech DDR" dogs are already out there......with no rhyme or reason to the breeding other than Black Sable, Blocky head.......They are not rare or an oddity.


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## martemchik

I guess I like to see breeders move their lines "forward" and develop them towards a goal of some sort. Not just "preserve" and breed the same two dogs to each other in order to make puppies for other people. I guess your hope is that some of those people will then decide to breed their dog (and hopefully match it to a DDR) in order to preserve more of the line...or move it forward?

Meh...nothing will stop byb. Removing/educating the market/customers will but its too slow of a process. For every ONE person that comes on here and gets educated, there's 100s lining up to get dogs that cost $500...not even $100. And I do believe at $500 a puppy the breeder is making quite a bit of money without titling/health checking their breeding stock.

I got my boy for $500. I refused to pay someone $1000+ for a dog just because the parents were titled or champions. My view was...why pay you money for the fact that I can tell my friends that my dog came from X? Didn't make sense back then. Now all I really care about is temperament and the proven ability to work...so I do look for working titles. Won't even have to be Schutzhund though since I don't do Schutzhund. It could easily be a UDX, MACh, or anything else I'm interested in. My next dog will be coming from Schutzhund titles parents just because that's the way it worked out lol.

I think the best thing that happens is a person gets a dog from sub-par lines. Find this forum for whatever reason or their local breed club, and then gets educated. That's what happened to me, and I'm glad it did. But I'm also one in a million and I know most people won't care that much.

I got a dog from what would be called a byb...he's currently got titles on him, if I wanted to I could've done Schutzhund, he has good hips/normal elbows, and I don't have any issues. I know people that got dogs from "reputable breeders" that came from an AKC champion, a UD bitch, and there is a whole slew of issues with the puppies...ranging from pancreatic deficiencies to weak pasterns to missing teeth. That's the reason people don't care...I got lucky with a great dog, others paid twice and much and got crap.


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## cliffson1

Martemchik, your post is very insightful and shows maturation on your part as you became more educated....a lot of posts and opinions come on the forum about breeding and training that come from folks with limited exposure but strongly held....some maturate like you have over time, other will fight tooth and nail to retain their position even in the light of overwhelming facts and experience. This is a complicated breed, whether you are BYB or best breeder money can buy, but there are certainly no shortcuts to gaining the insights you are gaining.


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## Odin24

martemchik said:


> I got a dog from what would be called a byb...he's currently got titles on him, if I wanted to I could've done Schutzhund, he has good hips/normal elbows, and I don't have any issues. I know people that got dogs from "reputable breeders" that came from an AKC champion, a UD bitch, and there is a whole slew of issues with the puppies...ranging from pancreatic deficiencies to weak pasterns to missing teeth. That's the reason people don't care...I got lucky with a great dog, others paid twice and much and got crap.


And I've gotten my last two GSD's from responsible breeders who title the dogs and do health certs and have gotten 1) a dog with great temperment but horrible health issues and bad hips 2) a dog that is fearful, reactive and has bad hips that is costing my a small fortune on professional trainers. My next dog is coming from one of those 'hobby' breeders who buys untitled dogs from titled parents and breeds them. I figure I can't do any worse than what I've gotten from reputable breeders who charge tons of money and don't honor their contracts. I can apply the $2000 I'm saving to offset any problems that may or may not arise.


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## Lady Jenna

jocoyn said:


> Lady Jenna ....... I guess I would say in your case preserving to what end?
> 
> DDR lines will continue to be bred and a significant number of breeders are already using DDR stock so the lines will be preserved........so what would you be adding? How would you know your dogs are the cream of the crop and producing dogs that would be bred to by responsible folks down the line?
> 
> So many "black sable Czech DDR" dogs are already out there......with no rhyme or reason to the breeding other than Black Sable, Blocky head.......They are not rare or an oddity.


That is my point exactly. And please understand, I don't presume to know much; I have A LOT to learn! but by diluting these lines, by crossing DDR lines with Czech lines, which are still in use in Europe, DDR lines will be lost. I want to preserve these lines as much as possible as they were when the Berlin Wall fell; I think that there is something worthy in these dogs, and there is more to them than a blocky head or a sable coloring.


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## cliffson1

The line is not as important as the breed!


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## Kingsj

Cliff always sums things ups so succinctly!

It doesn't really matter if the dog is DDR, Czech, WGWL, etc... it has to do with the quality of the dogs being bred. It is about preserving the breed by trying to put the best female you can find with the best, complimentary male to produce superior dogs.

There are many considerations, and the more experience one has, the more factors one will consider. Each breeder has their own definition of what moving forward means. Most breeders have a pretty similar defninition, IMO. But even the good ones have different thoughts on how to achieve the goal of improving the breed.



Lady Jenna said:


> It is an interesting article. But here is my question: What defines a back yard breeder?
> 
> ... I believe that these blood lines should be preserved. I intend to research them, and choose a breeding pair sometime in the next five years. If I have one male and one female, and breed one litter every couple of years, does that make me a back yard breeder?...


It may not make you a backyard breeder, but I would never buy a dog from a person that has one male and one female and they breed them together every couple of years to produce pups.

They may be the best two GSD alive, and they may produce the best GSD puppies that ever lived. To me, however, this would be blatant evidence the "breeder" has no idea what they are doing, even though (through no fault of their own) they could be producing great pups.

I could go on, but I'll stop here.

I am not saying you can't be a good breeder. I am saying there is a whole lot more to it than buying two dogs from titled parents and breeding them.


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## Lady Jenna

Kingsj said:


> I am saying there is a whole lot more to it than buying two dogs from titled parents and breeding them.


I agree with this COMPLETELY. I don't know anywhere near enough. I am at a minimum, five years from purchasing a puppy with breeding in mind. I am on this site to get an education. And I'm even willing to say I'm wrong when it turns out I am.

I want to have a clear purpose. I have a lot of respect for the people on this site, otherwise I wouldn't be here. I've had other breeds before, I've been involved with breeding other dogs, but I've never been head over heels in love with a dog the way I am with my Abby, and she opened my eyes to GSD's.

She's a mix I got at the animal shelter. There is no way I could have afforded $1000 for a puppy, let alone $2000 - $3000 from a reputable breeder. I had to get an older dog (more than 2 years) to accommodate my lease agreement, but before I reviewed my lease agreement I had been looking at puppies. We do obedience training every day, but we'll never be able to compete at the higher levels because she isn't registered.

I understand that titles take money; I've been that route with my sister and her Samoyeds. I know that breeding should be to improve the breed, not just continue it; I've seen enough dogs in the shelter to understand the truth of that. I'm not trying to be belligerent, I really want to know, if I can, in truth, only work with and give the time they deserve to, two dogs, isn't that enough to produce the occasional quality litter? And still provide dogs to people who don't have thousands of dollars to spend? Or do we all have to come into the breed through cross breeds, or back yard bred genetic monstrosities with bad hips? Is there a middle ground,, where quality puppies can be produced without incurring the huge overhead of a professional breeder?


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## Merciel

Lady Jenna said:


> We do obedience training every day, but we'll never be able to compete at the higher levels because she isn't registered.


Just a very very minor tangential point, but you can register a mixed-breed dog and compete in sports on equal footing with purebreds. Competition obedience is not closed off based on your dog's breed.


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## Kingsj

@Lady Jenna - I hope as I respond to you, it does not come across condescending or rude. I have learned a great deal from this website, it is a great source of information (mixed with disinformation just to keep you on your toes). 

If you read through the archives on breeding you will see a lot of opinions on this. Have you seen the sticky about whether or not you should breed your dog? I mention it because it has some great points to consider earlier rather than later. I have not bred a dog, but if I do, that flowchart only sums up the basic considerations I will have in my mind when making breeding decisions.

I write from the perspective of a GSD "user" and a student of the breed. The more I learn the more interested I am in the why. I have been studying the breed for probably over a decade now, and still have to ask simple questions of people I respect like Chris, Cliff, and Lisa. 

If you truly want to breed GSDs, come up with your reason for breeding. Think of what kind of dog you want to breed. Not "DDR-lines", but what would be the quinessential GSD you would like to produce, then find dogs that are similar (I wrote a puppy specification for my last dog, and I would do the same with more detail for dog I was going to breed). Find and approach a breeder throwing those kinds of dogs, and develop a relationship. Purchase one and use it for the purpose for which it has been bred, to test its true nature/temperament/quality. Prove to the breeder you know what your doing and you have the commitment to follow through. Get mentored by the breeder and discuss with them the possibility of breeding or co-owning a dog. Find a suitable breeding you think will produce a female pup of appropriate size, structure, drive, nerve, and health. Assuming there is a pup that meets your criteria, purchase/co-own the right pup out of the litter. Raise the pup properly from an early age (this will be your second purebred GSD). Follow the same steps as you did with the last dog by working the dog, this time you won't make so many mistakes  , to prove the dogs qualities are real and not imagined. Recognize the dogs shortcomings. Search for an find an appropriate, complimentary male that will strengthen those shortcomings without introducing unacceptable traits. Approach the owner of the male and convince them your female is worth breeding to his stud...

Thats as far as I've thought it out to be honest. Of course, I'm only about halfway through that process, which assumes no major setbacks in life, family, or dog.

From this point forward there are a whole new batch of problems ranging from your own foundation bitch showing unexpected health problems, breedings that don't take, puppies and mothers dying during birth, socialization program and early neuro stim to give the puppies every advantage, and temperament testing the pups and making sure they go to an appropriate home for their personality and drive.

A pup from a litter from an experienced, talented, honest breeder that health tests the dogs, puts multiple titles on his/her dogs, spends countless hours studying potential studs (also titled), communicates with annoying previous puppy owners (like me!) about trivial concerns, performs early neuro stim, socializes the pups, temperament tests the pups, and hand-picks the pup that best suits your needs/wants cost between $1500-$1800. And I thank God everyday it is such a bargain!

You made a comment about cost. As has happened to many GSD lovers, my first GSD-mix rescue had hip displaysia at less than 2yrs old. Surgery was $2000. I vowed I would NEVER blame cost for not purchasing a well bred dog again. I kept thinking of "Where the Red Fern Grows", if a country kid could save up the money to buy a well bred dog to perform the task it was meant for, then so can I... I know its a movie, but I still teared up at the end. 

I didn't mean for this to turn into a book. I just wanted to convey how seriously I took the breeding of my pup. I also do not intend to be contentious or argumentative. If you want to breed, I sincerely hope you become a great breeder! We need more of them. There are lots of people out there breeding affordable GSDs. The world needs more good dogs, not more affordable ones.


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## Msmaria

Lady Jenna said:


> It is an interesting article. But here is my question: What defines a back yard breeder?
> 
> I am in love with DDR dogs; I believe that these blood lines should be preserved. I intend to research them, and choose a breeding pair sometime in the next five years. If I have one male and one female, and breed one litter every couple of years, does that make me a back yard breeder? If my dogs are not titled, but come from good lines, with excellent hips, eyes, and elbows; are not protection trained, but are instead members of my family, does that by default make me a back yard breeder? I'm okay with it if it does, the reason I want to breed them is specific, to preserve these blood lines.
> 
> Or is a back yard breeder only those that put making money above the health and well being of the dogs? Because in my opinion, that makes them a puppy mill, even if they only produce a few litters a year.
> 
> A professional breeder, IMO, is someone who makes their living from dogs; training, showing, and breeding. These are the dogs that often cost thousands of dollars, and come with rudimentary training when you pick them up at 10 weeks.
> 
> Just below them (on the hierarchy in my mind ) are hobby breeders; those that love the breed so much, that they have puppies every once in a while. These are educated owners, with trained dogs that may or may not show. This is the group I would like to join, but not until I have learned enough not to make a mess of it. I know that you will never make money breeding dogs; between shots, vet visits, and the risk to your bitch, you're lucky if you break even. You do this because you love the breed, and want to see it continued in the right way.
> 
> Below this, and in my mind, just as bad as puppy mills, are the well meaning souls that breed their dogs because 'she should have a litter before we spay her'. It's the worlds worst reason to breed a dog, and often the results will (again, my opinion) end up in animal shelters.
> 
> At the bottom of the list are those that breed for profit, and like I said before, whether they produce 1 litter or 20, they are puppy mills in my book. So lets call a spade a spade. If you're breeding in your back yard to preserve the blood line, or to improve the breed, then I say, more power to you, even if you don't charge $2000 a puppy. If you're charging $100 a puppy because you're dealing in bulk, then that's a different story.


:thumbup: 

i neither have the time, space nor money to breed dog. I do agree that there can be hobby or byb breeders that can put just as much effort, if not more, into having quality pups than some professionals who are just in it for the money and breed their dogs to death (I have seen it). There are alot of good professional breeders here and thats what gives me hope. I hate that a few bad eggs ruin the whole basket.


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## onyx'girl

is it the breeder that is 'ruining the breed' or the buyer? Ultimately the buyer is the one who is supporting the breeder and the breeders practices.


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## lhczth

It is both.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Whats with his DDR love i have yet to see one of these mythical dogs that are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Nothing better then waiting 3 years for a dog to mature..not. Please someone show me a bunch of DDR dogs being successful at a high level in the recent past.


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## onyx'girl

I don't think maturing at 3 years is uncommon. Don't most males mature around that age or even a bit older? 
I doubt the ones that want to succeed at high levels are purchasing DDR lines. They are going with the more sporty lines.


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## Xeph

What's wrong with a dog that matures at 3? My experience with dogs that mature young are that they're dead by 6 or 7.

And not everybody values dogs competing in sport at high level as the epitome of showing what a GSD is/should be.


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## Debbieg

lhczth said:


> It is both.



yes! uneducated buyers and breeders who breed for a market of uneducated buyers. 

I think the jack of all trades, master of none is hard for many people to appreciate in our world of super size, bigger, faster. 

But I see hope because I have learned a lot about what has happened to the GSD, and found it is not as easy to get a sound healthy, all around one as it was when I got my first in the 70's

If I have learned others have too. Education is the key and my next GSD will be from a breeder who breeds to standard and has years of dogs of her breeding around.


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## volcano

The problem is a closed gene pool. In 100 years the gsd has developed probs, more inbreeding wont help.


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## carmspack

doesn't mean you can't do anything till 3 years of age !
the same thing was said by Fuller about herding dogs in general and Uwe Kirschental litter .
The criticism in the article was that North Americans tended to want to rush things , start training too early . The more sophisticated the work , the more use of self reliable , intelligent work , the longer the apprenticeship of the dog. So coming at 3 there is a shift , a settling , a greater seriousness and power .


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## mharrisonjr26

Debbieg said:


> yes! uneducated buyers and breeders who breed for a market of uneducated buyers.
> 
> I think the jack of all trades, master of none is hard for many people to appreciate in our world of super size, bigger, faster.
> 
> But I see hope because I have learned a lot about what has happened to the GSD, and found it is not as easy to get a sound healthy, all around one as it was when I got my first in the 70's
> 
> If I have learned others have too. Education is the key and my next GSD will be from a breeder who breeds to standard and has years of dogs of her breeding around.


Everyone wants the big 120 lb male its ashamed people just dont appreciate the working aspects of a working dog.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Less desirable in a working dog..one of the reasons most broker breeders in the usa that deal with Police services, military etc are primarly moved to dutchies and mals aside from many other factors. Quicker to mature to the point were they can work around 2. You get more work out of the dog and dont waste 3 years trying to figure out what you have. Late maturing is not a good working trait imo and in many others. Anyways as I said earlier the majority of Police seem to be buying ex sport dogs from Europe so there may not be as much difference between sport dogs and working dogs as many on here are led to believe. Many are sport dogs that were less then exceptional. DDR dogs are not being overly venerated in sport or LEO circles for a reason. The majority of DDR love seems to come from people that read about them online and believe the hype. Not saying there arent any exceptional ones out there but are they a generally superios working line? .I havent seen any evidence to support that.


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## mharrisonjr26

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Less desirable in a working dog..one of the reasons most broker breeders in the usa that deal with Police services, military etc are primarly moved to dutchies and mals aside from many other factors. Quicker to mature to the point were they can work around 2. You get more work out of the dog and dont waste 3 years trying to figure out what you have. Late maturing is not a good working trait imo and in many others. Anyways as I said earlier the majority of Police seem to be buying ex sport dogs from Europe so there may not be as much difference between sport dogs and working dogs as many on here are led to believe. Many are sport dogs that were less then exceptional. DDR dogs are not being overly venerated in sport or LEO circles for a reason. The majority of DDR love seems to come from people that read about them online and believe the hype. Not saying there arent any exceptional ones out there but are they a generally superios working line? .I havent seen any evidence to support that.


The DDR dogs were made for real life Not Sport. They do very well in Law enforcement. The thing that makes them so interesting to me is that they are in the middle for everything. They dont make the best top level sport dogs but my pups grandfather on the mothers fathers side was WUSV seiger and he is DDR bloodline dog. I feel sport dogs are just that for the most part. Maybe DDR GSDs are not the most popular but how many have you actually seen working(in person) compared to other bloodlines.


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## Seer

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> The majority of DDR love seems to come from people that read about them online and believe the hype. Not saying there arent any exceptional ones out there but are they a generally superios working line? .I havent seen any evidence to support that.



Speaking of parroting what you read online and believing the hype.... The slow to mature, cant do work or sport is usually spread around from people who had (a) dog or read about one, and is now parroting. The majority of DDR love comes from people whom own them. 

The lines have been softened and in some case's destroyed more then most because of the bone and pigment. A pretty puppy sells. Most of the parroting people who have had one and it did not work out as expected did not do there homework and bought pretty and hype. Some of the lines can mature a bit slower, some no slower than any others.

How about doing homework and choosing the lines for the desired outcome. Theres no such thing as 100% Some puppys work out some dont make the grade, even when you have done your homework, no matter the line. 

No other gsd gets more trash talk from the uneducated, semi educated and the I saw one once back in band camp...


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## Blitzkrieg1

mharrisonjr26 said:


> The DDR dogs were made for real life Not Sport. They do very well in Law enforcement. The thing that makes them so interesting to me is that they are in the middle for everything. They dont make the best top level sport dogs but my pups grandfather on the mothers fathers side was WUSV seiger and he is DDR bloodline dog. I feel sport dogs are just that for the most part. Maybe DDR GSDs are not the most popular but how many have you actually seen working(in person) compared to other bloodlines.


I have never seen a 100% DDR bloodline dog working, got me there. I have seen plenty of czeck, WG and crosses of both working. Many of those had a touch of DDR here or there in their lines. Some were good some not so much, who knows wether that was the DDR influence or the other dogs.
Never said they were bad dogs, just said I hear alot of hype usually from people who dont work their dog about how great they are.

*The slow to mature, cant do **work** or sport is usually spread around from people who had (a) dog or read about one, and is now parroting. The majority of DDR love comes from people whom own them.* 

Never said they cant work just said a dog that matures late is less desirable and impacts workability (have this from a guy who makes his living selling to LEO and Mil), dont take my word for it ask those that sell to LEO or Mil regularly. Most of the larger wholesalers are selling Mals, Dutchies, and GSDs from Czeck/WG lines (Sport Lines at that..GASP!).

Its real simple, if they were great dogs you would see them predominantly used by top sport competitors and breeders. You would see them prevalent in LEO circles like for example KNPV line Mals. Most competitors and kennels that are involved in the above listed activities that are successful are using Czeck/WG dogs or crosses. Thats not an accident, those folks have forgotten more about dogs then we will ever learn.

You want to be successful you take your Ps and Qs from those that are consistently at the top.
There's a touch of DDR in my upcoming pup through Brawnson as there are in many dogs. 

I question this mythical DDR dog thats the pinnacle of awsomeness. Dont tell me show me. Show me results in sport and or LEO venues of these dogs being consistently successful. 
Infact Ill go double check the WUSV results for the past couple of years..perhaps Ill eat crow.


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## mharrisonjr26

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I have never seen a 100% DDR bloodline dog working, got me there. I have seen plenty of czeck, WG and crosses of both working. Many of those had a touch of DDR here or there in their lines. Some were good some not so much, who knows wether that was the DDR influence or the other dogs.
> Never said they were bad dogs, just said I hear alot of hype usually from people who dont work their dog about how great they are.
> 
> *The slow to mature, cant do **work** or sport is usually spread around from people who had (a) dog or read about one, and is now parroting. The majority of DDR love comes from people whom own them.*
> 
> Never said they cant work just said a dog that matures late is less desirable and impacts workability (have this from a guy who makes his living selling to LEO and Mil), dont take my word for it ask those that sell to LEO or Mil regularly. Most of the larger wholesalers are selling Mals, Dutchies, and GSDs from Czeck/WG lines (Sport Lines at that..GASP!).
> 
> Its real simple, if they were great dogs you would see them predominantly used by top sport competitors and breeders. You would see them prevalent in LEO circles like for example KNPV line Mals. Most competitors and kennels that are involved in the above listed activities that are successful are using Czeck/WG dogs or crosses. Thats not an accident, those folks have forgotten more about dogs then we will ever learn.
> 
> You want to be successful you take your Ps and Qs from those that are consistently at the top.
> There's a touch of DDR in my upcoming pup through Brawnson as there are in many dogs.
> 
> I question this mythical DDR dog thats the pinnacle of awsomeness. Dont tell me show me. Show me results in sport and or LEO venues of these dogs being consistently successful.
> Infact Ill go double check the WUSV results for the past couple of years..perhaps Ill eat crow.


I agree with some of what your saying just not all of it. Also Im sorry he was V-bsp and SG-WUSV not seiger.


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## carmspack

blitzkrieg , you haven't been around long enough! "I have never seen a 100% DDR bloodline dog working".

I have . Some of the earliest of the early dogs to arrive . Owned some -- (for experience) . Used some , Grando Mecklenburger Buffel - produced a male , Keno that went to Toronto PD -- at 11 months of age , 4 months later was making apprehensions of 3 men, armed , successfully . His career carried on , still at work when over 10 years .
Owned Akut Lablapega , a very serious , hard working , dog that got keen interest from several depts. , and later his progeny (rcmp) VA Alf Lablapega
Cliff Bleichfleck , worked his youngsters. Zorro Laager Wall progeny, Addi Tonteichen and Mentor and Mira Iris progeny. 
Some of these old DDR lines , Artus Westenhohe and Ali Granert are the backbone of the old Swedish lines , which are working.
Now , ???? too many breeding hodge podge random for the looks --- without being a student of the genetics or knowing working .

By the way Brawnson's last litter before being shipped to Czech was to my female Carmspack Kohl SG Stormfront's Brawnson - 2000 & 2002 WPO Champion SchH3 DPO2 FH2 KKL2 lbz Narc/Patrol/SWAT K9 (Bronko and Bijoux -- co-bred -- and under my kennel name Kris and Tyko ) which I own (ed) , knew through working . Kohl was worked by Diehl and Bastiannson


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## Blitzkrieg1

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Less desirable in a working dog..one of the reasons most broker breeders in the usa that deal with Police services, military etc are primarly moved to dutchies and mals aside from many other factors. Quicker to mature to the point were they can work around 2. You get more work out of the dog and dont waste 3 years trying to figure out what you have. Late maturing is not a good working trait imo and in many others. Anyways as I said earlier the majority of Police seem to be buying ex sport dogs from Europe so there may not be as much difference between sport dogs and working dogs as many on here are led to believe. Many are sport dogs that were less then exceptional. DDR dogs are not being overly venerated in sport or LEO circles for a reason. The majority of DDR love seems to come from people that read about them online and believe the hype. Not saying there arent any exceptional ones out there but are they a generally superios working line? .I havent seen any evidence to support that.





carmspack said:


> blitzkrieg , you haven't been around long enough! "I have never seen a 100% DDR bloodline dog working".
> 
> I have . Some of the earliest of the early dogs to arrive . Owned some -- (for experience) . Used some , Grando Mecklenburger Buffel - produced a male , Keno that went to Toronto PD -- at 11 months of age , 4 months later was making apprehensions of 3 men, armed , successfully . His career carried on , still at work when over 10 years .
> Owned Akut Lablapega , a very serious , hard working , dog that got keen interest from several depts. , and later his progeny (rcmp) VA Alf Lablapega
> Cliff Bleichfleck , worked his youngsters. Zorro Laager Wall progeny, Addi Tonteichen and Mentor and Mira Iris progeny.
> Some of these old DDR lines , Artus Westenhohe and Ali Granert are the backbone of the old Swedish lines , which are working.
> Now , ???? too many breeding hodge podge random for the looks --- without being a student of the genetics or knowing working .
> 
> By the way Brawnson's last litter before being shipped to Czech was to my female Carmspack Kohl SG Stormfront's:crazy: Brawnson - 2000 & 2002 WPO Champion SchH3 DPO2 FH2 KKL2 lbz Narc/Patrol/SWAT K9 (Bronko and Bijoux -- co-bred -- and under my kennel name Kris and Tyko ) which I own (ed) , knew through working . Kohl was worked by Diehl and Bastiannson


No offence Carmen but how long ago was this? How come guys like Mike Diehl since he was brought up are not using these 100% DDR dogs anymore? Again I never said there havent been any good ones but of they were such great dogs how come you dont see the propencity of them that there should be if they were the superior dog they are made out to be. You can look at other canadians who are on top of their game so to speak you probably know them better then me and look at their dogs mostly wg or czeck. Again I dont think all wg or czeck dogs are good infact many are not..which is why you will never catch me saying that such and such locality is superior and im going to breed them because they are what a gsd should be. A good dog is a good dog and thats what should be bred not just because its DDR or wg. Ill stand by my statement that if the pure ddr dog was superior they would be prevelantly used by those who are in the know.

Ps my pup has got DDR, WG and Czeck in his blood line so im not biased.


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## carmspack

1986 and on .

I have no interest in pure this or that . Happen to own 3 straight DDR dogs . Chiba and Como Parchimer Land http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=694275-chiba-vom-parchimer-land and "Avery"
a Sandokan bred dog http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/ger...html?id=577173-airdrie-hill-vom-schmetterling

May or may not do a Como to Avery . The decision would be based on a study of their progeny . Chiba and Avery each have progeny in service . 

tracking ability amazing.


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## carmspack

I like and value longevity highly , as I do good health. 

DDR dogs have a genetic depository to some old foundational HERDING lines. 
Herding dogs are different. There is a joy in working . Will develop a relationship with the handler , and will work for the handler , not just the ball . Will be sensitive to pleasing the handler --- but must not be soft or sensitive to an adversary. Tend not to do well when the training is mechanical , or imposed shoe-box schedule. Instincts are high.


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## jmdjack

I have a DDR dog and I like DDR dogs. However, I also agree with some of what Blitzkrieg1 is saying - whether you call it hype, propaganda, myth, etc., there is a compelling story surrounding DDR dogs that people tend to get caught up in and that is not always in accord with modern reality. I got caught up in it a little bit a while back. With experience (and the addition of a WGWL a few years later) I came to realize that DDR dogs are simply GSDs, nothing more, nothing less. You can find good and bad in all lines. 

These days I do not keep up with the DDR lines as I once did and the breedings involving DDR dogs that tend to pique my interest involve crosses with other types of working lines (i.e. WGWL). I am far from an expert, but I think, depending on the bloodlines, DDR lines could provide a viable means for opening up bloodlines while providing complimentary attributes. The non-expert concern I would have based upon my limited experience is that the DDR dog bring sufficient nerve to the table to handle what some of the WGWLs bring. 

Lastly, people should be aware that the generalities made about the lines are generalities. Neither my DDR female nor my WGWL male neatly fit within the stereotypes one sees repeated over and over again on the internet. In my view, people would be better off focusing on getting a good dog rather than getting too hung up on the purity of particular bloodlines. 

OK, I think my ramble is done.


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## Blitzkrieg1

So in the past couple years? Im talking about DDR dogs achieving regular success at high levels compared to other bloodlines. I also question 99% of these ddr breeders since the ddr is dead and gone. What made those dogs was the stringent govt regulation..no emotion just facts. I very much doubt most breeders are using the same methods and to that standard.


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## carmspack

I have no interest in a pure DDR . I do have 3 as I stated . My interest is not sport , but getting dogs into "work" . There are some breeders in Europe that do keep a pure ddr , Parchimer Land and Baumann with his Lord and Felsen schloss lines . They admit that the DDR dog of yore is largely lost . They are largely commercialized as a novelty , a lawn ornament , a type . 

which brings me to another topic -- you can use genetics to preserve a TYPE , behavioural type , even a DDR type from back then , without using the genes of "pure" DDR .
That is artificial anyway. Politics isolated and kept the GSD in a form without change that existed before the 1949 . The wall has been down almost as long as it has been up (more or less) . Of course there are going to be changes.


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## cliffson1

I have a 10 year old DDR female that is real deal....4-5 on Artus, 3,4-4,5 on Held, Zorro, old Barutherland , ert., having said that I am not impressed with the pure DDR dogs of today.....more hype than workability. A little DDR is fine in pedigree today, all DDR .....not for me.


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## hunterisgreat

I'd have to imagine my male is what DDR is "supposed to be like". Hes heavy DDR, but also czech/slovak/other stuff. Still haven't come across a dog like him, and have his entire first litter spoken for twice over already lol. Much like breeding to any other single trait, you're missing out on other nicer dogs... Something gets sacrificed to stay "pure DDR"


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## carmspack

Yes - "Something gets sacrificed to stay "pure DDR"

the best schemes reincorporate those lines which developed .


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## cliffson1

No different than black and red dogs are not new....there were black and red dogs before there were Showlines. Heck, I bred to a black and red Enno v Aftrental son,( Arko vom Rossbach ) that had same color as today's SL in 1980. But he was a lot different type of dog....same with pure DDR dogs of today......almost all are a lot different than the dogs that first came over imported by Joe Kuhns, Mary Coppage, and others.


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## lzver

martemchik said:


> I guess I like to see breeders move their lines "forward" and develop them towards a goal of some sort. Not just "preserve" and breed the same two dogs to each other in order to make puppies for other people. I guess your hope is that some of those people will then decide to breed their dog (and hopefully match it to a DDR) in order to preserve more of the line...or move it forward?
> 
> Meh...nothing will stop byb. Removing/educating the market/customers will but its too slow of a process. For every ONE person that comes on here and gets educated, there's 100s lining up to get dogs that cost $500...not even $100. And I do believe at $500 a puppy the breeder is making quite a bit of money without titling/health checking their breeding stock.
> 
> I got my boy for $500. I refused to pay someone $1000+ for a dog just because the parents were titled or champions. My view was...why pay you money for the fact that I can tell my friends that my dog came from X? Didn't make sense back then. Now all I really care about is temperament and the proven ability to work...so I do look for working titles. Won't even have to be Schutzhund though since I don't do Schutzhund. It could easily be a UDX, MACh, or anything else I'm interested in. My next dog will be coming from Schutzhund titles parents just because that's the way it worked out lol.
> 
> I think the best thing that happens is a person gets a dog from sub-par lines. Find this forum for whatever reason or their local breed club, and then gets educated. That's what happened to me, and I'm glad it did. But I'm also one in a million and I know most people won't care that much.
> 
> I got a dog from what would be called a byb...he's currently got titles on him, if I wanted to I could've done Schutzhund, he has good hips/normal elbows, and I don't have any issues. I know people that got dogs from "reputable breeders" that came from an AKC champion, a UD bitch, and there is a whole slew of issues with the puppies...ranging from pancreatic deficiencies to weak pasterns to missing teeth. That's the reason people don't care...I got lucky with a great dog, others paid twice and much and got crap.


I could not have said it better myself. When we set out to look for a GSD breeder, we thought many of the same things that you mentioned. We didn’t want to pay +$1000 for a pup from a breeder where the dogs were registered, were champions, etc. We just wanted a healthy family pet.

So we did go with a BYB … . She owned both mom and dad and they were family pets and the pups were vetted and got first round of vaccinations before letting pups go home at 8 weeks old. She clearly cared about the pups and we felt good getting a puppy from her. We paid $500 for our Jake. Now that he is almost a year and a half old, we’ve learned some things. We did have severe digestive issues with him from the age of 3 – 10 months. We probably spent $2000 in vet bills in those 10 months. We tested for things like EPI, but in the end he turned out having SIBO (Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth) and a course of the antibiotic Tylan cleared that up. He also developed allergies around 10 months old. Were either of these things genetic from the parents … I’m not sure we’ll ever know. If we’d spent $1500 for a champion puppy, would we have avoided those problems … possibly, but I’ve read so many stories where that isn’t a guarantee and people have had just as many problems with their champion puppies.

I can say now that Jake is off commercial dog food, gets fed a balanced homemade diet he is a happy and healthy 17 month old dog. He has a great temperament and is such a joy to have around. The only thing we haven’t done yet is get his hips x-rayed, but he’s had several orthopedic exams and the vet has no concerns. We’ve talked to the vet and will wait a few more months before we do x-rays. And even at that we’ll just have the vet read the x-rays, we won’t pay extra to send them out. He’s been neutered and we want to know for his well-being. If he has hip issues we will start preventative measures and keep his weight down to avoid problems for as long as possible.

We may have gone with a BYB and possibly paid the price. But we brought Jake into our lives and took full responsibility for his care both emotionally and financially. From day one we fell in love with the little 8 lb bundle of fur and maybe he was meant to be with us knowing we would never give up on him. Final thought … I think there is a middle ground for breeders. They may not do everything by the book, but they love their dogs, care for the pups and do everything they can to give them a good start in life. 

I can say that our next dog … whether it’s a GSD or not, we will rescue next time.


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## onyx'girl

This is a 'closed' fb page, though easy to join. https://www.facebook.com/groups/130851574384/?fref=ts I love the photos John LaTorre posts of the DDR's of the past, they look nothing like the black sable racoon faces that is now popular. 
Here are a couple photo's:
Dina vom Fürstendamm. 
21.06.1971. 
: DDR 55040








Lars vom Fürstendamm. 
: 15.04.1974.
: DDR/72081.


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## Blitzkrieg1

hunterisgreat said:


> I'd have to imagine my male is what DDR is "supposed to be like". Hes heavy DDR, but also czech/slovak/other stuff. Still haven't come across a dog like him, and have his entire first litter spoken for twice over already lol. Much like breeding to any other single trait, you're missing out on other nicer dogs... Something gets sacrificed to stay "pure DDR"


Getting a half sister to your male similar breeding, so maybe Ill get some more DDR love going maybe not. Then again you could attribute some of the traits you describe in your dog to Asko who seemed to have reproduced himself well, or Brawnson..though I have heard a lot of innuendo about his reproductive capacity so who knows. But both those dogs in a pedigree is strong mojo imo even if they are a bit back.


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## Seer

No other line draws more angst. Mythical... Pure... Real Deal... Unicorns.... 

Bustier ala caca

Every time you breed something, something gets sacrificed. Pure or scatter bred. The east lines pound for pound have to be the reigning champion for scatter breeding. They are the red hair step child that offered the family much, and is admonished at every turn. If the breeders of yesteryear and today had not, and, are not scattering the lines to oblivion then we might be having a different conversation today. 

Create a dog for defense, workability, fight & longevity and then be miffed when it does not preform well against others bred.... for the sport. Trying to peg the square block into the round hole and upset it wont fit? 

The shepherd as a whole has lost its working ground. So most of the debate here can be intermingled quite easily between unicorns and shepherds as a whole. The teenagers on meth now rule the roost. That wont hold. I don't want a shepherd like that. You can keep that kind of success, no thanks.


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## Seer

Backyard breeders are the deflection of the poop sling, its their fault our dogs nerve's suck, its their fault are dogs cant work, it's their.... on and on. Last time I checked I saw no dogs from backyard breeders in any world venue. Very few working the streets and failing or succeeding. So the blame for the loss of status or decline in health or workability or sport ablity on a world level cant be deflected to johnsonville, state and mr & mrs byb. 

I see many shelter dogs that have made better working candidates. So thats prob not a road we want to go down. You just cant keep a good dog down. The blame game is fun but until its realized thats your hand lifting the bottle of whiskey to your lips, its impossible to stop getting drunk.

Sorry for the double post, I did not see only part of my post made it.


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## jmdjack

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Getting a half sister to your male similar breeding, so maybe Ill get some more DDR love going maybe not. Then again you could attribute some of the traits you describe in your dog to Asko who seemed to have reproduced himself well, or Brawnson..though I have heard a lot of innuendo about his reproductive capacity so who knows. But both those dogs in a pedigree is strong mojo imo even if they are a bit back.


I looked at Hunter's male's pedigree and I would not consider that a DDR pedigree or a pedigree heavy on DDR dogs. There is some old DDR back in the Czech lines, but not DDR as is being discussed. If I had to characterize Jager's pedigree, it would be Czech/WGWL. In noting this, I am not being critical at all - he sounds like a heck of a dog and, from the little I know, it looks like a really nice pedigree.


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## carmspack

here is an example of one of the high ratio ddr breedings -- Blitzkrieg , you saw this very young dog , advanced beyond his age in many ways , Line-breeding for the progency of Carmspack Stan and Chiba vom Parchimer Land


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## hunterisgreat

jmdjack said:


> I looked at Hunter's male's pedigree and I would not consider that a DDR pedigree or a pedigree heavy on DDR dogs. There is some old DDR back in the Czech lines, but not DDR as is being discussed. If I had to characterize Jager's pedigree, it would be Czech/WGWL. In noting this, I am not being critical at all - he sounds like a heck of a dog and, from the little I know, it looks like a really nice pedigree.


Isn't all DDR "old" and far back in any living dog?


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## jmdjack

hunterisgreat said:


> Isn't all DDR "old" and far back in any living dog?


Not in the sense we are talking about it. There are modern east german bloodlines you can get today that are referred to as "DDR" notwithstanding the fact that the wall fell along time ago (I do not really like descriptor "DDR" because there has not been a DDR for a long time, but that is how they are commonly referenced). Take a look at Cliff's posts on the prior page about "pure DDR lines of today" versus what was around years ago. I have seen several way more experienced folks than I distinguish between the "old" DDR dogs and the modern DDR dogs. No experience here with the "old" and experience with only one of the modern . . . .


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## mharrisonjr26

Seer said:


> No other line draws more angst. Mythical... Pure... Real Deal... Unicorns....
> 
> Bustier ala caca
> 
> Every time you breed something, something gets sacrificed. Pure or scatter bred. The east lines pound for pound have to be the reigning champion for scatter breeding. They are the red hair step child that offered the family much, and is admonished at every turn. If the breeders of yesteryear and today had not, and, are not scattering the lines to oblivion then we might be having a different conversation today.
> 
> *Create a dog for defense, workability, fight & longevity and then be miffed when it does not preform well against others bred.... for the sport. Trying to peg the square block into the round hole and upset it wont fit? *
> 
> The shepherd as a whole has lost its working ground. So most of the debate here can be intermingled quite easily between unicorns and shepherds as a whole. The teenagers on meth now rule the roost. That wont hold. I don't want a shepherd like that. You can keep that kind of success, no thanks.


East Lines scatterbeeding.? No more then anyone else. Like I said the OLD type GSD was mad for real life, so is the DDR/Czech GSD. 
The reason I went DDR is they are what most pple think they are getting when they buy any large breedIMHO. My male is out of proven Lines of producers of civil (LEO/Military) dogs. He is DDR bloodlines.

Everyone has an opinion about the working abilities of a dog or certain bloodline. Some are using wisdom gained from experience. OTHERS are using what they read and statistics to form one I'd like to know what some of these peoples experience is with WD.

Also The BYB is the terminal illness of the dog world. Though its possible to get a good dog out of a BYB the chances of that are well good luck.


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## mharrisonjr26

*SEER* I know you have some DDR line dogs so dont take that last piece personal.


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## Blitzkrieg1

So most of todays DDR dogs are to real for sport work? Funny I see that on a lot of websites selling PP dogs..which usually means i cant be bothered to put in the effort to train the dog for sport or that the trainer or the dog couldnt if they tried. I get tired of hearing that line.. This statement is aimed at the comments insinuating that the DDR dog is just to hardcore to compete and be consistently successful.


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## Seer

mharrisonjr26 said:


> *SEER* I know you have some DDR line dogs so dont take that last piece personal.


Ha Ha your going to have to do much better then that for insult time, no worries. But the facts of the way they are and were used support that claim. The lines after the wall fell were and are used and out crossed with everything and the kitchen sink, even from within the bloodlines. Many bloodlines are flat out washed out by the scatter. You cant get reliable reproduction mixing and mis matching all over the place. 

Its unbelievably hard to find dogs bred like what cliffson1 posted in his 10 year old. We should have plenty we had plenty.... we now have piddle if that.

Its unproductive to place the blame for the lack of standing that the shepherds have on people who dont care more or less for the breed as a whole. The horrible backyard breeder. The glory or the toilet bowl seat rest right where it should, directly on the laps of those that breed and bred the dog with all the best intentions. It can be no other way.

Thats not only the truth but the only way to correction, in my head. Ok.. that result when south, the roach back, now lets fix it. Just like the loss of work ability, that body was not created in byb, usa. I dont have control over someone next door, nor should I. I do have control on where my own breeding program goes. 



JD


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## carmspack

"Its unbelievably hard to find dogs bred like what cliffson1 posted in his 10 year old"
that was probably in the early 90's . Those lines , that "idea" , is still alive . You have to keep moving forward . 
Here is one tough little female Carmspack Blackjack Johnson

old lines. accumulation of herding . emotionally and physically hard . brother with rcmp officer . tracking fool . 
The owner of Blackjack was a very very close friend of Joe Kuhn, handled all his dogs Addi, Ulf, Monchi, Agar (his one Czech dog ) his Urban , Tarbes, all of them. She has often said Joe would so love Blackjack, made him proud.

Those dogs had a strong fight drive , civil drive , active aggression.


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## Seer

carmspack said:


> "Its unbelievably hard to find dogs bred like what cliffson1 posted in his 10 year old"
> that was probably in the early 90's . Those lines , that "idea" , is still alive


You can count using one hand and a half the people that believe and bring forward "that Idea" Carmen. You would need a calculator to count the scatter's.

Im a hundred percent move forward! Im a hundred percent with the idea on making better, not replication. Im hundred percent baffled by what was left behind to work with. From plentiful to piss poor. Hard to find does not mean impossible.  I was unbelievably lucky, most are not. But that should not be what I strive to leave behind for the next smo.

The idea will suffer as it has. The lines no matter where they come from should be left in plentiful and healthy condition to flourish. Anything less is not just a disservice to the originators but a disservice to the breed and what it could be.


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## carmspack

I know where you are coming from "So most of todays DDR dogs are to real for sport work?" --- turn it around and you have dogs that are too sport for real ! , you see that too -- all lines . 
Too many jumped on the DDR bandwagon and bred to a market.


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## cliffson1

Carmen, I like that pedigree on Blackjack! My type of dog!


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## carmspack

thanks Cliff . I hope to get a next generation if I can get some of her brothers semen put on ice. Six mile tracks are a piece of cake for him. Which brings me to the value of the DDR lines -- not all and not any , or at least anymore since all things in working need to be deliberately conserved. 
Here is a quote from Josef Mravik eurosport site "The dogs were heavy, strong boned and had huge heads. They were slower but powerful. Obedience was a necessary evil. The dogs never looked at the handler with dancing footsteps. They did obedience because they had to but they were always watching for a bad guy.
For so many generations in the Eastern Block the dogs were made for war. There was no other motivation. The dogs must function on their own. They had to be able to work independently of the handler. They were expected to think for themselves in many situations. They were titled out in the forest, not in a stadium. The ZVV/SVV title is a "real-life" situation title.
Until 1989 there were no separate show and working lines. All German Shepherd Dogs were working dogs. When the border opened the German influence began and the breed began to be separated.
West Germans have always placed a lot of influence on Schutzhund. The dogs performed in a stadium not a train station. The extreme high nerves of the West German dogs can be attributed to the use of the dogs in sport. The dogs must not think for themselves. Their entire goal needs to be to please and work for the handlers. This is comparing apples to oranges
The traits that the Eastern block needed in the dog was considered stubborn or too independent and the West German dogs were considered nervous or needy.
The East German (DDR) dogs and Czech dogs were interbred successfully because they were breeding for the same characteristics. Prior to 1989 the show line dog did not exist in Cechkoslovakia. There was one GSD and they worked or they were not bred. The dogs still were required to get a show rating and a black or sable dog could win just as easily as a black and tan dog.
Tremendous emphasis was/is put on the tracking ability of the dog. The dogs were used in rugged conditions in the snow and ice to find criminals hiding in the mountains. The dogs and handlers were out for days at a time tracking the smugglers. Dogs were not sold. Their work was essential to the survival and economy of the country. The dogs were not social to people outside their family unit. " then ends the piece by saying that ". So much of the old blood that made up the border patrol dogs has vanished. "

Curious how things have changed from "The dogs were heavy, strong boned and had huge heads. They were slower but powerful. Obedience was a necessary evil. The dogs never looked at the handler with dancing footsteps. They did obedience because they had to but they were always watching for a bad guy" to the demand for the North American "taste" for openly friendly , pet , or prancy schutzhund dog has lead to "Many old school breeders believe that this is leading to the demise of the true Police and Border Patrol dogs"

Trends were demand for black and tan, black and red. If you had a sable good luck to you. Then the DDR dogs were the bright shiny object and people would want one , now it is the Czech dog . People phoning for pet puppies wanting Czech dogs without knowing why. They have no experience , no understanding -- and the dogs keep changing to meet the market .


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## Seer

I dont think he wrote that, but that is a very good synopsis on why the lines often dont mesh easily with sport. 

JD


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## Merciel

Thanks Carmen, that post is really helpful to me. I had been struggling to understand some of the things people talk about with regard to different bloodlines, but that makes it very clear.


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## carmspack

Josef did write that , it is in the first person "I" History of German Shepherd - Eurosport K-9 Training and Import Services - Josef Mravik homepage in full.


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## björn

I can understand the wish to hold a type of dogs "pure" if those dogs are offering something that are hard to come by in other lines, instead of mixing these dogs up more and more with common westgerman lines to get better sportdogs that I guess has happened a large degree to the czech dogs. It would be different if there was many DDR-dog breeders who tried to breed those dogs for the same qualities they had before the wall came down, nowadays it seems only a few even in germany and I guess the goal is not the same today as it was 30-40 years ago.

The old DDR-dogs that have been infused in other lines while probably not all superdogs obviously had some good qualities, no different from good dogs from other lines, also today you can see good dogs with quite much DDR-dogs mixed into them, also good for SCH. A number of these dogs was used in the swedish lines from the 70s and also after the wall, but not all of them influenced the breed here to any greater degree, at least not the dogs after the wall came down.

This policedog and his lines is not 100% DDR, but it´s a line that have produced quite many policedogs that also is used nowadays in breedings in denmark. Don´t know if the DDR-dogs is maturing late or not, but this particular dog is described as producing dogs that are late to mature. On the other hand his offspring are also lasting long, some in service at 11-12 years, and produce real "drives" and not only flashy drives for sport that sometimes are more about stress that people interpret as drive.

V Hulgaards Karlo


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## InControlK9

martemchik said:


> I got a dog from what would be called a byb...he's currently got titles on him, if I wanted to I could've done Schutzhund, he has good hips/normal elbows, and I don't have any issues. I know people that got dogs from "reputable breeders" that came from an AKC champion, a UD bitch, and there is a whole slew of issues with the puppies...ranging from pancreatic deficiencies to weak pasterns to missing teeth. That's the reason people don't care...I got lucky with a great dog, others paid twice and much and got crap.


martemchik I'm pretty sure there are thousands of ppl who bought from a BYB and feel they got lucky with a great dog just like you..... which just goes to show you, you dont have to buy from champion titled ect ect. and spend $$$$$$ just to have a great dog

you work with your dog, you spend time with your dog... he will be fine... I refuse to believe that a dog with temperament issues is because of the "BYB" ...that' just a lazy sorry excuse, who was working with that dog at 6 weeks? 7 weeks? 8-9-10- and so on? any dog that isn't well socialized or raised properly may have temperament issues.. has nothing to do with the breeder [thats just my 2 cents]


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## onyx'girl

> you work with your dog, you spend time with your dog... he will be fine... *I refuse to believe that a dog with temperament issues is because of the "BYB" ...that' just a lazy sorry excuse, who was working with that dog at 6 weeks? 7 weeks? 8-9-10- and so on? any dog that isn't well socialized or raised properly may have temperament issues.. has nothing to do with the breeder* [thats just my 2 cents]


Maybe it doesn't have to do with the 'breeder' but the 'breeder is the one that put two pedigrees together which turns out either bad or good. 
They also may not be doing the biosensor or different stimulation management to help pups thrive....won't even get into diet that mom is ingesting or what they put the pups on when they start eating on their own. Or if they clean up after pups or do the pups get in the habit of eating poop.

Most of these pet breeders have no clue about pedigree matching or thoughts of health. 
Sure many times you get a nice dog from a BYB, and often you get a dog with issues that have to be managed for the life of the dog(or it gets dumped on CL or worse)
I didn't know how good a dog could really be until I saw the biddability, stable temperament with good drives from dogs of good breeding. It isn't something that is trained or managed, but what is in the dog genetically.

You don't know what you don't know until you really know!!! And when you know better, you do better.


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## Blitzkrieg1

InControlK9 said:


> martemchik I'm pretty sure there are thousands of ppl who bought from a BYB and feel they got lucky with a great dog just like you..... which just goes to show you, you dont have to buy from champion titled ect ect. and spend $$$$$$ just to have a great dog
> 
> you work with your dog, you spend time with your dog... he will be fine... I refuse to believe that a dog with temperament issues is because of the "BYB" ...that' just a lazy sorry excuse, who was working with that dog at 6 weeks? 7 weeks? 8-9-10- and so on? any dog that isn't well socialized or raised properly may have temperament issues.. has nothing to do with the breeder [thats just my 2 cents]


If you believe that temperment does not have a large genetic component then you need to see and actually WORK with more dogs.


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## Xeph

I will admit that I have been a bit soured buying quality animals that turned out to basically be "crap" (loved, but not the quality I was seeking), and my best animal is still my $250 BYB dog.

But genetics certainly do play a big role, and sometimes breeding matches just don't work well.

I feel it's all one big crapshoot...especially since people describe certain attributes in different ways.

I have a dog here that I feel is the antithesis of a GSD....but many people here would really like him.


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## onyx'girl

**comment removed** This post really had nothing to do with the topic. More of a personal nature. ADMIN


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote:thanks Cliff . I hope to get a next generation if I can get some of her brothers semen put on ice. Six mile tracks are a piece of cake for him. Which brings me to the value of the DDR lines -- not all and not any , or at least anymore since all things in working need to be deliberately conserved. 
Here is a quote from Josef Mravik eurosport site "The dogs were heavy, strong boned and had huge heads. They were slower but powerful. Obedience was a necessary evil. The dogs never looked at the handler with dancing footsteps. They did obedience because they had to but they were always watching for a bad guy.

Good God, I guess crap training and praying the abuse will stop would never be taken into consideration.

They worked bite work non stop, and slapped the OB late, and then to try to get the dogs to stop slinking, they did OB for bites the night before. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


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## Jeff Oehlsen

Quote: is it the breeder that is 'ruining the breed' or the buyer? Ultimately the buyer is the one who is supporting the breeder and the breeders practices.

The breeder who sells out is the one who is ruining the breed. People just make up definitions to words now, the bar is lowered, and they want it to keep being lowered. Look how many "breeders" have done nothing, know nothing of training, and have imports with fake titles, or titles based on solely passing with a 220 something. 

Buyers don't know about any of that.

Breeders do, and they send their dogs off to be "titled" all the time. 

Breeders are the guardians of the breed.............. oh wait, that was when ???


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## pets4life

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> If you believe that temperment does not have a large genetic component then you need to see and actually WORK with more dogs.




I agree it is 80% genetic but I also have to say that sch titles dont mean much these days at all. I would not take a free dog ever with sch titled parents without doing an in depth study on the lines and knowing the parents personality inside out first and the breeders. But if the dog is a police street patrol dog id be a lot more interested in the litter. There are a lot of talented trainers out there that can title almost any dog in sch.


Joseff m is who picked out my dog btw really happy with her personality wise


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