# Do people even know what they’re feeding??



## Réa538 (Mar 25, 2021)

So, I just want to throw this question out there....how many people really read the ingredients of the food before they choose to give it to their animals? I recently brought home a new GSD pup, Brody. I have fed Taste of the Wild to my animals for years and have loved it. When I took Brody to the vet I expressed a bit of concern that TOTW didn't have a large breed puppy specific formula and asked if that should be a worry. She proceeded to tell me that she recently switched to TOTW for her adult rottie...but threw Royal Canin GSD specific puppy food out as an option....I was flabbergasted! The only "meat" in the formula is chicken biproduct meal!!! Followed by a bunch of different grains. Why would I feed that to my dog? Do they even realize what "biproduct meal" could consist of?? Anyway...now that I've ranted a bit...lol...how does everyone choose their food? Do you read the ingredients and research yourself, or trust the vet's advice?


----------



## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

Make it myself....I would recommend everyone do some research and do the same.


----------



## Supermode (Aug 18, 2008)

Oma's Pride complete Woof Chicken meal


----------



## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

Another point... vets are not nutritionists and don’t study nutrition... they tend to suggest brands that they are getting kickbacks from our brands that are popular.
Doing your own research is best and asking other gsd owners (breeders) about their experiences is probably more helpful when it comes to diet.


----------



## oink (Jan 31, 2021)

If you don't want to feed your dog meat byproduct that's understandable, but most of those ingredients are supplements/minerals. Nothing strange if you know some nutrition/chemistry. Doesn't look that different from a vitamin bottle honestly.


----------



## bchevs (Oct 15, 2020)

So first I’m going to say that nutrition for our dogs can be a controversial topic, so this is only my opinion, take from it what you will. I’m in no way qualified to advise, but I know how hard it is to sort through all of the information that is out there. I’m also going to apologize for the novel haha!

I personally feed Royal Canin. I worked in a pet store for a long time and have heard many differing opinions on what is good vs what is bad, and my views have changed a LOT in the last few years after doing further research and speaking to my vet as well as speaking to the reps from Royal Canin.

But this is basically what influenced my decision:

I’ll feed what my vet would feed to their own animals. He sees sick animals daily and has extensive training and many years of experience. So whether or not they really get a kickback (and I’ve heard from many they do not, but who knows!) it boils down to the fact that this is what my vet, who I trust, recommends. Most vets I have spoken to only recommend AAFCO certified foods.
RC is AAFCO certified. Meaning that they follow the AAFCO guidelines for proper nutrition and have done feeding trials
By-products are not *necessarily* bad. Dogs will eat what we as humans will not eat from an animal, and they can get a lot of nutrition from these organs etc. If you google “Royal Canin By products” they actually have a great explanation on their website about this and more, including how moisture factors into where an ingredient lands on the ingredient list (For example when “chicken” is listed, it may be at the top of the ingredient list because of the amount of chicken included, but most of that is water! “Chicken meal” or “chicken by-product” I believe is supposed to be better because it has already been processed & there is less moisture per pound = more nutrition) 
I’ve spoken to the reps at Royal Canin who have described some of the quality control measures they take and was very impressed! I have never heard of a recall and when I googled it the last one I was able to find was in 2007. They also explained to me how they focus on the nutrition that is put into the food (the vitamins, protein, etc), and not on putting in ingredients that “look good” or “read well”.
Working in a pet store I’ve seen a lot of returns and will say that Royal Canin generally feeds well. Meaning that there were few returns on it because it made the dog sick etc compared to other foods.
In the end it boils down to what you are comfortable feeding your dog. There’s so much misinformation out there it can be really hard to navigate, I fed another food for a couple years and Whisk did well on it, but then I read up on grain free foods possibly being a factor in DCM and after consulting my vet I chose to switch foods, just in case. Whiskey and my cats have done well on Royal Canin for years now, so I continue to feed it.


----------



## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

The one that freaked me out completely was 'animal digest'. eeeuuuuu


----------



## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

tysonsingh said:


> Another point... vets are not nutritionists and don’t study nutrition... they tend to suggest brands that they are getting kickbacks from our brands that are popular.
> Doing your own research is best and asking other gsd owners (breeders) about their experiences is probably more helpful when it comes to diet.


What is your knowledge/education in veterinary nutrition?


----------



## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> What is your knowledge/education in veterinary nutrition?


Like I said I’ve done my own research on what I choose to feed my dogs...I didn’t share a diet plan or anything...I specified that it is best to do your own research and make decisions based on that. Plenty of pet (dog) nutritionists out there to get information from as well.


----------



## dickwol (Mar 29, 2021)

This site may help:








Dog Food Reviews and Ratings by Brand


The Dog Food Advisor's unbiased dog food reviews and ratings searchable by brand. Get help finding the best dry, wet or raw food for your dog.




www.dogfoodadvisor.com


----------



## Réa538 (Mar 25, 2021)

oink said:


> If you don't want to feed your dog meat byproduct that's understandable, but most of those ingredients are supplements/minerals. Nothing strange if you know some nutrition/chemistry. Doesn't look that different from a vitamin bottle honestly.


Yes, I agree. Lots of supplements and minerals. But if you think about our own diets....are we healthy if we eat a bunch of junk and then take a multivitamin everyday? No. My issue with the "biproduct meal" in the label is that you don't know exactly which biproduct they are using and which they aren't. It could be lungs and other organs that offer some nutritional value....or it could be feet, dead on arrival carcasses and other meat that is considered unfit for human consumption because it sat unrefrigerated too long. I get it. Biproduct meal is cheaper than making meal out of actual meat....and that means more profit for the companies making it... especially when they can put a cute picture of a dog on the front and convince people it is made for their breed of dog. But I'll throw this out there...before we started mass producing dog food...consider what dogs eat in the wild...it's meat. Not rice, not oats, not grass, not grains...meat. I agree it is a personal choice....just miffs me a bit when products are recommended without any real information on why they are recommended. $$$


----------



## oink (Jan 31, 2021)

Réa538 said:


> Yes, I agree. Lots of supplements and minerals. But if you think about our own diets....are we healthy if we eat a bunch of junk and then take a multivitamin everyday? No. My issue with the "biproduct meal" in the label is that you don't know exactly which biproduct they are using and which they aren't. It could be lungs and other organs that offer some nutritional value....or it could be feet, dead on arrival carcasses and other meat that is considered unfit for human consumption because it sat unrefrigerated too long. I get it. Biproduct meal is cheaper than making meal out of actual meat....and that means more profit for the companies making it... especially when they can put a cute picture of a dog on the front and convince people it is made for their breed of dog. But I'll throw this out there...before we started mass producing dog food...consider what dogs eat in the wild...it's meat. Not rice, not oats, not grass, not grains...meat. I agree it is a personal choice....just miffs me a bit when products are recommended without any real information on why they are recommended. $$$


I mean, if you knew your stuff you could argue that you could be healthy if you got all the protein, nutrients, etc you needed from pills. I'm not advocating for eating pills and never food, but as a science person I'm inclined to think it's possible someday haha. 

I think it's great that people want to do their own research and feed their dogs raw to give them the best life possible. But dogs are not wolves. Their GI has adapted to human evolution. I'm not knocking raw diets at all. But I do think it's a little misplaced to insult RC when big brands like those have had tons of studies to prove their safety and efficacy. A vet, a licensed medical professional, cannot, and will not, recommend a diet that isn't medically backed by studies. Raw and grain free might be the best thing for dogs, who knows! But you cannot expect a vet to ever recommend these diets without the proper safety studies. 

So yes, do your own research, but hopefully that research consists of proper studies and not just websites that confirm one's own bias. 

-Also would like to acknowledge that the science community isn't free of abusive tendencies and definitely full of conflicts of interest. It's getting better over time but obviously scientific studies can also be full of bias and you must be able to recognize biases and limitations. There is low quality and high quality science.-


----------



## bchevs (Oct 15, 2020)

oink said:


> I mean, if you knew your stuff you could argue that you could be healthy if you got all the protein, nutrients, etc you needed from pills. I'm not advocating for eating pills and never food, but as a science person I'm inclined to think it's possible someday haha.
> 
> I think it's great that people want to do their own research and feed their dogs raw to give them the best life possible. But dogs are not wolves. Their GI has adapted to human evolution. I'm not knocking raw diets at all. But I do think it's a little misplaced to insult RC when big brands like those have had tons of studies to prove their safety and efficacy. A vet, a licensed medical professional, cannot, and will not, recommend a diet that isn't medically backed by studies. Raw and grain free might be the best thing for dogs, who knows! But you cannot expect a vet to ever recommend these diets without the proper safety studies.
> 
> ...


This is a great point about dogs having adapted, and it reminded me of a vet who once told me that a wolf's lifespan is much shorter than a dog's is. They are very different animals and we obviously want our dogs to live as long as they can, so should they really eat the same diet as wolves? I also remember reading something about dogs being mainly carnivores but a portion of their diet is plant based because they would eat the stomach contents of herbivores. My dog also eats grass, fruits, vegetables etc, so maybe we need to rethink the idea that they are fully carnivores? I will have to look later and see if there are any articles on this.


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

OP, is your vet part of a Banfield, VCA or Blue Pearl clinic? If so, they work for Mars Petcare -- the same company that makes RC.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I see all sides of this debate. I know raw fed dogs and they are shiny, lean, clean teeth. But to be fair they are competition/breeding dogs and they are getting WAY better than the average pet dog care in every way (compared to the majority of dogs that board in my kennel who are smelly, fat, dandruffy, eating crap with gum disease)

My lab was shiny, smelling nice, clean teeth, on Victor and tooth brushing and regular grooming.... he eats honest kitchen 1 meal a day now just because I like for him to have some real food. He literally thrives on any food being thrown away from the kennel.

my GSD doesn’t seem to tolerate really rich diets... I one tried to put him on raw and he wouldn’t eat it. I starved him onto it, he had explosive diarrhea and was so messed up for weeks, it was awful. When he gets sick, he will often refuse any and all food except Royal Canin GI kibble or Purina EN canned, which are both bland diets for GI upset. They work.

I am never without Royal Canin GI kibble and Purina Forti Flora in the kennel because I can cure 98% of diarrhea in the boarders with 12 hrs of that.

I home cooked for my other GSD for 6 or 7 years and she was the picture of health.

So I see the benefit to all the different types of food and I am not 100% sold one way or the other. I always want to find the best quality food my dogs eat/like/thrive on. If it’s kibble, it’s kibble.


----------



## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

tysonsingh said:


> Like I said I’ve done my own research on what I choose to feed my dogs...I didn’t share a diet plan or anything...I specified that it is best to do your own research and make decisions based on that. Plenty of pet (dog) nutritionists out there to get information from as well.


Share with us where you're getting some of your advice on diet from, we already know it's not from your veterinarian.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Here's a paragraph from a wolf website regarding diet
*. The Wolf Diet*
Wolves are the largest members of the dog family. Strictly speaking, they are classified as carnivores. Their meat of choice are ungulates (hoofed mammals such as deer, elk, moose, or bison). However, this is not to say that they give vegetables and fruits a wide berth. Unlike obligate carnivores, such as the feline species, *wolves have the digestive capabilities needed to synthesize plant-based food*. These fierce creatures are known to eat berries, apples, carrots, and melons. *About 20% to 30% of their diet consists of the vegetarian kind*. These fruits and vegetables supply wolves with valuable nutrients that are missing in meat, such as Vitamin C, carbohydrates, and flavonoids. Like other canines, they also eat grass.

My dogs each have favorite fruits and vegetables they enjoy.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Heidigsd said:


> Share with us where you're getting some of your advice on diet from, we already know it's not from your veterinarian.


Here's an excellent place to learn about dog nutrition if you're sincerely interested 





HOME


American College of Veterinary Nutrition (ACVN) advancing veterinary nutrition & increase the competence of thoses practicing in this field by establishing



acvn.org


----------



## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

Heidigsd said:


> Share with us where you're getting some of your advice on diet from, we already know it's not from your veterinarian.


I personally follow an NRC diet...but I’ll leave it to you to do the research on that and decide if that works for you and your dog. It works for me and I’ll continue using it. 
The internet is vast and it has a lot of good and bad information...pick wisely 🙂


----------



## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

bchevs said:


> This is a great point about dogs having adapted, and it reminded me of a vet who once told me that a wolf's lifespan is much shorter than a dog's is. They are very different animals and we obviously want our dogs to live as long as they can, so should they really eat the same diet as wolves? I also remember reading something about dogs being mainly carnivores but a portion of their diet is plant based because they would eat the stomach contents of herbivores. My dog also eats grass, fruits, vegetables etc, so maybe we need to rethink the idea that they are fully carnivores? I will have to look later and see if there are any articles on this.


Wolves can live 8-13 years in the wild and even longer than that in captivity. 8-13 years in the wild without any sort veterinarian care and all the obstacles they face day to day compared to a domestic dog isn’t bad. Whether it is dry kibble or a home made raw diet...the important thing is to make sure the nutrient requirements are being met....

my opinion on kibble, not that it matters, I take it like fast food...it is enough for someone to survive on but it doesn’t mean it’s the best for you.


----------



## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

tysonsingh said:


> Wolves can live 8-13 years in the wild and even longer than that in captivity. 8-13 years in the wild without any sort veterinarian care and all the obstacles they face day to day compared to a domestic dog isn’t bad. Whether it is dry kibble or a home made raw diet...the important thing is to make sure the nutrient requirements are being met....
> 
> my opinion on kibble, not that it matters, I take it like fast food...it is enough for someone to survive on but it doesn’t mean it’s the best for you.


Yeah the leading cause of death of wild wolves is wild wolves. That and injuries sustained while hunting. 

I interned at a captive wolf facility in Idaho back in 2004 and the wolves were fed mainly roadkill. Most of them lived to be over 16 years old. 

That being said, I don't feed my dog raw. I don't have the time or money, and there's evidence out there that it can lead to problems. But...so can kibble. There's so much conflicting information about dog food out there, it can make your head spin. Today's dogs are so different from wolves, physically, behaviorally, mentally, I don't think you can reasonably compare the two, on any scale. Does my dog really need all the vitamins and additives in kibble? Do wolves have access to all those vitamins in the wild, when they're eating mammalian prey, hair, and rumen content, and the occasional berry or blade of grass? I dunno. I know ungulates in western Montana have selenium deficiencies because it just ain't there on the landscape. Ungulates in Yellowstone die young because the silica from all the volcanic activity makes their teeth wear down faster. So the natural environment isn't always a source of "proper" nutrition. 

My childhood dog (1988-2004), a husky-shepherd mix (we think), was fed mostly Alpo and Atta Boy because we didn't know any better and it was inexpensive. He lived to be 16 and never had any major health problems until his kidneys began failing at the end of his life. 

So....my decision in feeding my dog is to do the best I can and not overthink it.


----------



## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

To answer the question, its no. Look at how humans eat themselves. They drink Coke, great battery acid cleaner. They see a picture of a German Shepherd on a bag and fall for a marketing gimmick. I would gather most people do not read ingredients for themselves let alone their dogs.


----------



## violetmd (Aug 7, 2020)

.


----------



## Sabre's Mom (Jul 27, 2018)

violetmd said:


> My dog likes the taste of her Farmina kibble better, but she'll eat RC when she's hungry enough.


My dogs seem to love Farmina. So much, that they in addition to their meals, they readily accept it a treats.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Heidigsd said:


> What is your knowledge/education in veterinary nutrition?


I know what my vet told me “we get very little training in nutrition. The training we do get is done by particular kibble manufacturers therefore I won’t be able to help you if you run into problems with your raw diet”


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

When I met Carmen, we discussed raw feeding at great length. After seeing her 14 yr old dogs who were incredible healthy and not looking a day over 2, While running and playing hard, I was convinced this was a good thing. She mentored me and helped me to eventually open a raw dog food business. 
I absolutely love how healthy my dogs are. Very much a personal choice but there is a learning curve.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

I have been raw feeding since the late 90's to early 2000. It was a learning curve and a mine field as there are different views on what a raw diet should consist of.

I feed whole carcasses or Raw Meaty Bones, Muscle Meat and Organs. I don't feed a balanced diet at each meal time but it is balanced over time.
I have also been corresponding in great detail with Dr Tom Lonsdale and I put his knowledge into practice.

I feed liver as a stand alone meal every 2 weeks and a mixture of other glandular organs the other weeks, I feed a variety of livers from different animals and good selection of organs such as kidney, spleen, pancreas, brain, thymus, testicles. I don't prescribe to the 80/10/10 method as this should be the minimum requirement as some dogs require more bone than 10%, my dog does better with 12-18% bone in her diet, I have even gone up to 25% but not higher as I do not want to rob other nutrients from the diet.

This is one of the meals I fed this week, it contains lamb chunks, lamb ribs and sprats to balance out the omega 6 and omega 3 ratios, it contains approx 13.5% bone.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

It depends on the dog. I fed both of mine raw a few years ago and it made them each very sick in different ways. One has IBS and is now on Honest Kitchen grain free with meat. I wouldn’t recommend grain free but it’s the only food that stopped her ulcers. The other dog has allergies and is on RC prescription diet. It also saved that dog. Dog food is a highly charged subject. My conclusion after years of dog ownership and trying many different diets, is to experiment and see what works best for the dog, not what makes us feel good.


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

Everything depends on the dog, no matter what we decide to feed, be it raw or kibble or home cooked.
I have never had a problem with any of the dogs that I fed raw to nor did I have a problem when I used to feed kibble but I appreciate that there are those who have experienced problems with a raw diet. I gave up along time ago advising and trying to convince people to switch to raw, in the end its their dog/s and not mine.

We all do the best for our dogs' and I chose raw not to make me feel good but because it is the right diet for MY dog


----------



## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

Saphire said:


> I know what my vet told me “we get very little training in nutrition. The training we do get is done by particular kibble manufacturers therefore I won’t be able to help you if you run into problems with your raw diet”


They have ton more training and education than any pet owner. It doesn't surprise me that they won't offer help with a raw diet due to potential liability, who could blame them!


----------



## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

They usually have a semester but it is based on kibble food and not on raw or home cooked diets, the course is usually sponsored by a pet food company, it used to be Waltham but probably it is Hills, Royal Canin or Purina these days.

Vets do have the option to branch out into nutrition and get further training but I think that is either towards the end of their training or at a later date post graduation.
Vets are expected to keep up to date with any training they receive and this includes nutrition but this is not always possible, especially in a busy practice.

They tend not to recommend raw or home made because they do not know much about it, their training is on kibble based foods, so they are treading in different waters when I comes to other methods, which can be problematic for them as they can not fall back on what they learnt in vet school.

There are now some vets who are looking into raw or home based diets and this is due to the fact that they have seen first hand benefits of such feeding but I think it will be a long time before the vet schools start to implement this into the curriculum.

There were a few dogs at the kennels that I work at that were on raw but when we got a new kennel supervisor who had a vet nurse back ground, she took them off raw because she had no knowledge of raw feeding. Her training only covered kibble foods so she was out of her depth and could not support something that she had no knowledge of.

So in a nut shell they can only advise on what they know and not on what they don’t know.


----------



## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

Gwyllgi said:


> They usually have a semester but it is based on kibble food and not on raw or home cooked diets, the course is usually sponsored by a pet food company, it used to be Waltham but probably it is Hills, Royal Canin or Purina these days.
> 
> Vets do have the option to branch out into nutrition and get further training but I think that is either towards the end of their training or at a later date post graduation.
> Vets are expected to keep up to date with any training they receive and this includes nutrition but this is not always possible, especially in a busy practice.
> ...


This is 100% true. It’s not the vets fault that they don’t have an in depth curriculum on various nutritions. It’s the colleges and program developers responsibility to make nutrition a larger part of the curriculum. However, I do acknowledge that they have programs that allow vets to specialize in nutrition as well.
I guess some people just believe that pet owners and breeders don’t have the ability to do valid research and educate themselves on the topic.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

tysonsingh said:


> This is 100% true. It’s not the vets fault that they don’t have an in depth curriculum on various nutritions. It’s the colleges and program developers responsibility to make nutrition a larger part of the curriculum. However, I do acknowledge that they have programs that allow vets to specialize in nutrition as well.
> I guess some people just believe that pet owners and breeders don’t have the ability to do valid research and educate themselves on the topic.


Part of the issue with vets supporting/discouraging raw feeding is what they have seen and experienced in their practice. There are people who feed nothing but chicken wings or carcass. The vet then sees an unhealthy dog due to diet.


----------



## tysonsingh (May 9, 2012)

Saphire said:


> Part of the issue with vets supporting/discouraging raw feeding is what they have seen and experienced in their practice. There are people who feed nothing but chicken wings or carcass. The vet then sees an unhealthy dog due to diet.


Oh for sure... that’s why it’s important to do research on the various diets and learn how to balance the nutrient content of your food. Also I think it’s important to be realistic about ones own abilities. If you feel you cannot put the effort in everyday or feel like you would be financially limited then it is definitely more detrimental than sticking to kibble.
Aside from the health benefits of a properly done raw or home cooked diet I think my favourite thing about it is how much more you are involved in a dogs daily life. I personally feel more connected to the development of my younger pups than I did to my older boy who has been on kibble his whole life.
It takes much more time (shopping, balancing, portioning) than simply scooping up some kibble intolerance bowl and walking away. I have to watch the pups eat to make sure they are good with the bones as well.


----------

