# 2 incidents in less than a week involving the cops



## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

*sigh*

Where do I start?

I have another thread explaining my whole situation, regarding why I had an unexpected move and updates on my new living situation. To get more backround of that whole story, here is that thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post700238

To give a reader's digest version of my backround, if you don't want to read the thread I put a link to above, I had an unexpected move to get out of a bad situation. Old roommate has a really bad drinking problem, he was becomming more and more emotionally unstable, and eventually decided he didn't want the responsibility of having a dog anymore and expected me to just give up my GSD, Doc, and continue being his roommate. Now I see that as a blessing in disguise, because I got out of a bad situation that I didn't realize how bad it was until I left. 

After a huge scramble to find a new place to live that was big dog friendly, close to work and affordable, I found an aquantence that owns a house and rents the whole upstairs to me. She owns a 2 1/2 yr old boxer named Fred and has 2 siamese cats. All of the things I was worried about with the move - Doc adjusting to new house/environment/neighborhood, seperation anxiety, Doc adjusting to living with cats (has only been around cats a handful of times), Doc seeing my new roommate as the alpha, etc... you know... the normal things you worry about with bringing a Doc into a new home. But those things have been the least of my worries!! 

I moved on May 27-28th (so 2 weeks ago). The first week, there were a couple times that Doc got loose in the neighborhood. From him bolting through the back door, the stake coming out of the ground when he was on a long line, his collar breaking off when he started running when he was on a long line, which was tied to a heavy stone bird feeder this time since we can't trust the stake to stay in the ground anymore. He didn't runaway or leave the neighborhood, he played the "come and chase me game", which he hasn't tried to do since he was about 6-9 months old (He's 21 mos. now). He is very smart and knows when there isn't a line attached to him. I also don't go running after him and try to grab him. I should also mention that either myself or my roommate were with the dogs outside during the times when Doc had gotten loose, so its not like we were just putting them on a long line and leaving them out there alone. 

So, I figured I would just keep him on a 20 foot line and not stake him to the ground. I have done that MANY times, in many different environments in the past, that way he can have his freedom to run around in his allowed areas, but as soon as he starts to go towards where he isn't allowed (neighbors yard, street, etc) I pull on the line to correct him and teach him his boundries. Well, this idea worked against me TWICE within the last week.

Last Friday, I had the dogs in the backyard playing. There was an electrical line that was down in our front yard, so uniformed police were driving in a Fire SUV on our street. Both the dogs and myself heard the door slam when they got out of their truck. Both dogs' heads perked up and they barked once, but niether the cops nor the SUV was in eyesight at that time, so they went back to playing. About 5 minutes later, all of a sudden the cops came walking into the front yard and to the side of the house to grab one of our garbage cans to place the yellow "Do not Cross" tape on, because of the electrical line that was in our yard. Both dogs bolted at full speed towards them before I could even grab their leads. The cops stepped back into the street, both dogs ran to the edge of our property line, where they have been trained not to cross, barking very viciously, showing body language like they were going to attack. The cops were flailing their arms all over the place, one cop had his hand on his gun, screaming for me to get the dogs inside. This didn't help the situation much at all. I came back outside, apologized up and down, tried to explain my situation, but they kept cutting me off saying "If those dogs approached the wrong people like that, they would be dead by now!" Again, I tried to explain that it has been a trial and error with keeping the dogs from getting loose, I'm trying to be proactive about it, bla bla bla... and I also said that we live a block from North Minneapolis border (those not familiar with the north side of minneapolis, lets just say its one of the most unsafe areas of the city) and if 2 strange men came walking into the yard unannounced, I would WANT my dogs to react that way. The cop's response was "Well... dogs that vicious and aggressive need to be contained!" 

Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the dogs nor defending myself. I was definately suprised at how only living in his new house for only a week and half at the time of this incident, how Doc is already knows what is his territory, yet not crossing the yard boundries when the cops stepped back in the street. But this opened my eyes to how much the dogs feed off of eachother's energy. Neither of the dogs have ever bitten anyone, but I can see how much they get wound up together and am really afraid of things escalading. At this point I figured, "Ok, well, they didn't go into the street, they didn't try to lunge or bite at the cops... I suppose it is time to bump up obedience - work on recalls, work on keeping both dogs calm so that I can control the feeding off of eachother's energy and do work with both dogs with appropriate ways to greet people walking onto our property."

Well, 3 days later... another incident happened. On Monday, I had the dogs on the long leads again, playing in the backyard. They noticed a man walking his dog in the street. They bolted and once again, I couldn't catch their leads in time. This time they both crossed the yard boundries and ran into the street to sniff the dog. Both are friendly with strange dogs, so I wasn't worried about them, but wasn't sure if this dog was friendly towards strange dogs and didn't want to piss off the guy walking his dog in the street, since *I KNOW* it is unacceptable to let your dogs bolt off in the street and run up to unknown people and unknown dogs. Just want to make that clear to everyone reading this. Unfortunately, this dog was very skiddish and was barking his head off. Both my GSD and my roommate's boxer were fine, they were just sniffing. Since this man's dog was freaking out, he started kicking my dogs. Luckily my dogs stayed pretty calm, they let out 1 or 2 non-aggressive barks because of the "excitement" of the other dog being riled up and the man throwing out kicks and yelling. I grabbed both dogs, apologized, and took them inside. A few minutes later, the guy who was walking his dog and another neighbor who saw the incident, came and knocked on our door. They said they were calling the police to warn them of a "potentially vicious" dog. They said they were all afraid of their kids' lives, that Doc might get loose again and bite them. About an hour later, a police officer came to the house to talk to my roommate and I. We stood on the front step with both dogs looking out the front glass door, panting and tails wagging. No barking at all. The officer said "Obviously, these aren't vicious dogs, but when the police get a call, we have to follow up.. bla bla bla... I'm not gona give you a citation, you guys are obviously trying to be responsible dog owners and being proactive about trying to keep them in the yard, etc." This officer was the most understanding out of everyone we've dealt with between the 2 incidents.

Now - before I get critized, please bare with me here. I try very hard to be a responsible and educated dog owner. I don't let my GSD run loose. Since we don't have a fenced in yard, I don't have very many options for keeping the dogs contained. Like I mentioned earlier, it has been a trial and error as far as making sure they can't break free when they are on long leads that are tied up on the other end. Fred, my roommate's boxer's, recall is about 95%, and obviously needs work since he bolts off. Doc, my GSD, I'd say his recall is about 85% right now. We used to live in a fenced in yard, his recall was about 99% in there. The other 1% were times that he became focused on something, and it would take him 5-10 seconds before he would recall. The only other place I can take him to practice recall without a long lead on, is a dog park, which his recall has always been pretty good there. I obviously can't work on recall in my yard anymore because there is still that chance of him bolting off. But at the same time, the recall NEEDS to be practiced in his "territory". I can't guarentee that he won't get loose again. I am trying my hardest right now not to set them up for failure (got new collar, new stake that holds dogs up to 250 lbs, new leads, etc.) but in the event that they DO get loose again, I want them to be able to have a 100% recall and be more relaxed and less "vicious acting" towards people walking in the street or approaching our yard. I know that Fred, the boxer, is more fear aggressive. He barks at strangers out of fear, but backs up after he barks. My GSD's aggression is purely territorial. I had problems with him in the past where he would try to lunge at people approaching him while we would be on walks in our neighborhood. By approaching, I mean either someone wanting to come up and talk to me, or someone walking on the other side of the street not even looking at us. But he never displayed ANY type of aggressive behavior (lunging, barking, growling, hackles,etc) to any stranger that came into our house or anyone that walked by us on walks or pet him on walks. So after doing LOTS of reading and observing when he would display his aggressive behavior, it is definately purely territorial.

I am just so stressed right now, I am worried that something is going to happen. Here are things that I have for goals that we'll be working on in the immediate future:

*-Working on 100% recall with BOTH dogs.

-Re-training the property lines/boundries with both dogs.

-Working on desensitizing them to people walking in the street or walking into our yard with them staying calm and not go into "defend my territory" mode. This is where I need help. How do you do this? I know GSDs are territorial by nature. Can this be done? Can they be trained to stay calm in these situations? How do you channel this aggression for when it is really necessary? For now, I have thought about working with them one on one and have them leashed with me in the front yard, and recruit some friends to come walking down the street, toss some treats in the yard as they walk by, etc. What else can I do?

-And most importantly, how do I keep a handle on the 2 dogs feeding off of eachother's energy? I need to have better control. I have never lived with 2 dogs before and this is my first GSD as well! The dogs I've owned before niether had fear aggression nor territorial aggression (at least to the degree that my GSD has), so this is all new to me!*

Please give me some tips on what I can do to get a better handle on this situation and help correct this behavior. Also, please give me some tips on how I can accomplish the goals listed right above.

I see where I have gone wrong, as far as setting up the dogs for failure to get out of yard. Right now when I take the dogs out, I have them both on leads in the yard, tied to the big new stake AND the stone bird feeder. It's so sad, cause they can't run and play in our huge backyard, and when they try, they just get tangled up or try to run, and you hear a big yelp once they get to the end of the lead. :-(

I'd also like to add that I do practice NILIF with both dogs. I do spend time with them seperately, for short little training exercises. They also do not roam the house all day and all night together. Doc sleeps with me in my room and is crated when noone is home. Fred is contained on the main floor when no one is home. So as far as them bonding more with eachother than myself and my roommate, we have that under control. My roommate also makes both of the dogs do a down/stay for when the cats are eating, and since the dogs have different meal times, the dog that ISN'T eating has to do a down/stay while the other is eating. So there are many ways that we reinforce the pack structure daily.

Sorry so long... but... please help?


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc_Brown But he never displayed ANY type of aggressive behavior (lunging, barking, growling, hackles,etc) to any stranger that came into our house or anyone that walked by us on walks or pet him on walks.


Whoops, forgot to clarify here. I meant to say that when he has never displayed any aggression on walks that were OUTSIDE of our neighborhood.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

To what degree to you practice NILIF? Do you make them wait while you go out the door first when they go out? Are they allowed or not allowed on the furniture? As far as the long lead outside goes, if in the front yard they aren't reliable, then hold on to the lead at all time. I don't know if you explained why or not, but if the back yard is fenced in, then howcome they have to be on a lead?

Also, how much mental stimulation do they get (Training...)

How much do they get exercised?

For the training, are your dogs food motivated? Mine are VERY food motivated so that helps training a lot. Obviously you can tell I'm no expert, but these are obvious things that jumped out to me.

Also, maybe socializing your dogs with people would help. I know that my dog barks at certain people because of the lack of socialization because he was sick, but we're working on it!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why must you take the dogs out together? Can they play and socialize with eachother inside the house, and go outside one at a time?

Two dogs create a different dynamic. As you said, they feed off of each other's energy. There may be other things going on. 

Nearly every close call I have ever had with any dog was when I was managing more than one dog at a time. One illustration of this was taking Pip to be groomed and Cujo to have his toenails done. These are my parents' dogs, though Cujo is one of the pups I bred. 

Anyway, I took pip in on his own leaving Cujo in the car. Then I walked out and got Cujo. He got his nails clipped immediately and we walked around the store for two hours waiting for Pip to be dry and ready. Cujo was good with people, ignored the kitties, and was fine with other dogs. I thought he was being so good that I could pick Pip up and walk out with the two of them. Pip was a 12 year old English Setter at the time. 

The moment I got Pip, Cujo wheeled, snarling at a huge white dog. All down the aisle he snarled and barked at other dogs, while owners pulled their animals in and looked at me as though I was disgusting for bringing such a monster inside the store. In the parking lot he tried to go after a Rottweiler puppy. 

The point is that dogs CAN act very differently because they have a canine pack member there with them. Many of the serious attacks involve more than one dog, and GSDs are not so smart that they cannot be encouraged to participate. 

Even with you right there, I do not like the idea of the two of them being staked out where they can get tangled in eachother. It really only takes a few seconds for a tangle to take place and then a panic. Panicked dogs will often make their situation much worse. 

Society right now is a bit paranoid about dogs. Your dog is a youngster, and there are things that by himself, he might be able to "leave it" but with a compatriont, it is just too much to ask. I think you had a narrow escape with the dog owner. 

Dogs are not innocent until proven guilty. It seems to be the other way around. Also, it is not necessary for the dogs to make contact for you to be sued. If for example, your dog charges toward the street and some little old lady stumbles and falls while trying to protect her small dog, she might win a lawsuit on the grounds that she percieved that hte dog would attack her small dog and maybe even herself. 

I can only suggest to fence in a small portion of the back yard, and to manage 1 dog at a time.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

Good questions!

NILIF - I do go through doors first, dogs have to wait until I say ok. I feed only my dog when I am home during the day and make him sit/stay while I fill up his food bowl and let him eat once he makes about 5-10 seconds of eye contact with me. (roommate and I work opposite schedules, she feeds her dog in the early morning before work while Doc and I are still sleeping and in the early evenings when I am at work) I also make Doc wait at the top of the stairs until I make my way to the bottom of the stairs and then release him. The only furniture Doc is allowed on is the end of my bed, but he only gets up there when he is told and he gets down when told. 

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear-- the new house we moved into is NOT fenced in. The old house had a fenced in backyard. If this new place wasn't fenced in, I wouldn't be so worried about the dogs getting loose. 

Both dogs get A LOT more exercise than they did before we moved in together. Besides the play in the backyard (which is now cut back because of getting tangled and having the ends of the leads be staked down) I take my GSD for long walks, take both dogs to some new neighbors that have a fenced in yard to play with their 2 great danes, and occasionally go to a lesser known dog park where I am familiar with all of the dogs and their owners there.

My GSD is VERY food motivated and priviledge motivated (which is why NILIF works great!) The boxer is more praise, priviledge, and tennis ball motivated. 

As far as socialization, I did as much of that as possible with my GSD. When he is not in "his territory", he is just kind of aloof to any strangers that pet him or try to play with him, but he quickly warms up. I take him to very crowded places all the time, he does fine there, it is just the neighborhood where he becomes aggressive/protective/territorial. I want to socialize him in the neighborhood, but want to do it in a safe way. I can't have him lunging at people. How do I socialize him in "his territory" is what I'd like to know.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Doc-

You know things need to change. Here we go.

1. Working on recall is great, but that is just part of an overall obedience plan. Train them. The most important result of solid obedience training is not the fact that a dog can sit, come, down and stay on command. It's the mentality it creates for the dog - look to you THEN react. And do this all individually with the dogs, not together.

2. Property lines go out the window here. These are dogs that have left the property and barked at people. LE has been involved. Your liability is too great for this type of trust.

3. Desensitizing is not your immediate goal. Your immediate goal is to get them to look at YOU and follow YOUR lead in regards to all situations. You can only do that with control. They need to be on leash and set up for success. Which leads me to

4. Nobody saids they need to go out together. In fact, I would avoid this moving forward. If my dogs are just going out to potty and come back they go out individually - no monkey business. One at a time you have a better ability to control them. Once they are trained and prove to you they are trustworthy, then you can try and have them out together.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerWhy must you take the dogs out together? Can they play and socialize with eachother inside the house, and go outside one at a time?


Well, we don't allow them to play in the house. That is how a tall lamp fell over and broke during my first day moved in. So having them play in the backyard was a nice way for them to get the extra energy out. Plus it helped teach them that there was a time & a place for playing. I take my GSD on long walks by himself, since he has more energy to expell than the boxer.

And I forgot to mention that eventually my roommate (who owns the house) was planning on getting a fence put in. That probably won't be for 6 months, at the earliest, because she has a long list of house projects, like new windows, new roof, etc. I can't force her to move the fence to the top of the list-- its not my house!

So are you saying that there is no way to calm 2 dogs at the same time?


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Doc_BrownSo are you saying that there is no way to calm 2 dogs at the same time?


What I took from the combination of Selzer's and ZeusGSD's posts was that you should work the dogs on an individual basis to build your recall and leadership position so they are each looking to you before they react. 

Once you (and your new roommate) have that level of control with them individually, then you can then start working with them together. 

Good Luck!


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Are you training the dog? in my opinion, mental stimulation is almost if not just as important as physical stimulation. These are intelligent dogs and they need it.

I also agree that you should work with your dog seperately from the boxer. Your dog will be more focused on you, and hopefully with the right training techniques, more willing to please you. I think that since your dog is food motivated that you should definately use that to your advantage. You might even want to teach him 'Focus' which would help him to focus on you. Here's the link if you're interested. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35064&page=1#Post35064


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

I don't want to sound like I'm being stubborn and resisting advice here. I guess realistically, the dogs won't be going outside individually every single time. I can understand with training individually then working up to training together. I have been working on training individually already. But taking them out for pottying and stuff, it won't be individually.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

We're just trying to suggest advice to you to help solve your problems, and prevent future ones, that's all.









What you do with it is up to you.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

You may want to consider that for those times when you are taking them out to potty, holding on to or securing their lines. It sounded like in the two incidents you mentioned, the leases were loose?

I don't like the idea of securing the leases when you have more than one dog - selzer pointed the safety reasons for this. 

Can you hold on the leases while they're out going potty? You need to find the way to eliminate the "opportunity" for a repeat of either incident. Fencing is the best solution, but minus that, not allowing dragging leases while they're out until you've improved the recall and leadership roles for this situation would be an option.

Just throwing out ideas here. But IMO you need to bite the bullet and make some changes probaby (hopefully) with some short term sacrifices on the freedoms you want your dog to have.

BTW that link GSDowner2008 posted is a great thread if you haven't read it before.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

If your dog gets labeled a vicious dog then you have a good chance of losing him completely. Your roommate will lose her/his insurance unless you and the dog leave. You will not be able to find another rental that will allow him. I am being realistic. I had a dog that bit and it luckily was not reported. It was a very similar situation--my other dog went to bark at someone and he reacted and then went after the guy. I realized I had better wake up or my dog would be euthanized. I continued his training until I could call him off if I needed to but after that he stayed on leash or on a long line unless he was in a fenced in area. It was not fun for me and not as fun for him but I wasn't going to chance having anything like that happen again and losing him. 

The only way to stop the dogs "feeding off of each other's energy" is to not allow them outside together unless a person is holding each of their leashes or lines. Period. Find a fenced in area where you can take them to play but they will repeat the behavior you saw again and again if you allow them that kind of freedom. And one time it may cost Doc his life.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Since Monday's incident, I have been walking outside with Doc with his 6 foot leash and I put the boxer on the long lead, which is tied to both a large stone bird bath AND a stake that is meant for dogs up to 250 lbs. Since the last stake came up out of the ground (but wasn't meant for dogs up to 250 lbs), we secure the leads to the heavy stone bird bath. A couple times I have them both on the long leads that are secured, but don't do that much since a.) them getting tangled b.) them try to play and run and going to the end of their line. Hearing the "yelp" makes me cringe. and c.) knowing that the stake and bird bath could still fail with both of them tied to them.

I understand I have to make changes. If doing MORE seperate work than I am already doing needs to be done, well I'm willing to do it.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*


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## workingdawgs (Jul 18, 2005)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Personally, I would also work on training both dogs to do an emergency drop... meaning that when you take a certain tone on a down/drop command, and a different command than what you use, the dogs immediately drop on the spot. I would work this command in all sorts of different situations until the dogs are very reliable, but don't overuse the command after the dogs learn it. This could very well save your dogs life at some point.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

This is completely off topic - but GSDOwner2008... how the heck do you still have your sanity owning a 2 month old GSD and a 5 month old GSD??? Saw the age of your dogs in your signature. If you can handle 2 GSD pups, I should be able to handle 2 adolescent dogs!!

I see so many people on this board with multiple dog homes. I take it there is at least a small percentage of the people with multiple dog homes on this board that have dealt with something similar to my situation. Just please reassure me that getting this under control *IS* doable. I am willing to commit to both of these dogs. I don't plan on staying in this living situation forever, but I don't want me and my dog to be an outcast of the neighborhood for the time being. I think this will be a good learning experience for me if I consider to add to my pack in the future.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*



> Originally Posted By: Doc_Brown But taking them out for pottying and stuff, it won't be individually.


Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. Now, I'm not calling you insane







. But not having a fence and taking two dogs out together that are not 100% trained is a recipe for disaster. Why can't you just take one out to do his business and then let that one into the house so you can take the other one? It is realistic, because I do it every day. And I have a fence along with two dogs that have excellent recall. I do it because I don't want my back yard ripped up and I don't want muddy dogs coming back in the house. I also don't want them to be playing and not going to the bathroom - and then coming back into the house to have an accident. In addition, it's not the dogs job to wear each other out. If you have that mentality, you end up with a two dog pack that comes to you for food and a pet every now and then but operate on their own agenda (which at this point includes territorial aggression). It is YOUR job to work with and wear the dogs out physically and mentally resulting in the right mindset.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I just gotta say that you are so very lucky the cop did not shoot your dog.


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## bethd (May 23, 2006)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Right now you're going through the terrible two's. Yikes! It will get better but by the time they're grown up, you'll have the fence, so the problem is how to handle it NOW.

I suggest an e-collar. We actually went to a training class where every dog had the e-collar so we learned how to use it and so did the dog. My dog is always out with me in the front yard (backyard is too small and too muddy). We go bicycling and walking and playing and he's never on a leash but I still have full control of him.

He has been taught when he hears the word "car" to sit right where he is and he knows I'm coming to him to grab ahold of him, he knows that I'm in control. Also, when a dog is being walked in the neighborhood, he knows to sit right where he is and he's not allowed to go over and say hello unless I release him.

He's been trained with this since 8 months old and he's always excited when I get his e-collar out because he knows we're going somewhere or out to play. It's used only on an action command, never a negative command. So if he's running towards something/someone he shouldn't, I would press the button and say "come" or "sit" or "here" (his command to look at me).

Look into it, it could just be the answer.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

The easy short term solution for this is to keep at least one dog on leash all the time outdoors. That's saying the other dog is reliable off leash. If not, keep both dogs on leash when outdoors. This will 100% prevent the situation from occurring again, so an 'easy' fix.

In the meantime, I missed your scheduling for dog classes and a trainer. Are you taking both dogs weekly? Are the classes helping? I know some trainers work better in some situations than others, so if I need to find another one then I move on.

As mentioned, 2 dogs is a pack, and if they don't really see you as the leader..... then you'll be ignored and they'll feed off each other and go off doing 'whatever'. So when you find a good trainer then you'll then gain the skills and ability to be that leader your dogs will look to and listen to, and possibly then start allowing them off leash again in the future.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'm thinking a fence would solve your issue. Rather than put on the top of your friend's list, why not offer to do it for her? 

Home depot and Lowes both have inexpensive wire fence that you could use to make a small run area for the dogs. 

My house didn't have a fence the first year we lived here, I won't tell you my stories but my fence resolved all the issues.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

Doc, in response to your question,

Training and raising two puppies is very difficult. I have to keep them seperated for almost everything, Potty time, feeding, and DEFINATELY training. It's all about making sure each dog gets the attention they need, and making sure that Apollo doesn't get jealous. We are all about a pack mentality, and we are slowly enstilling this upon Zeus as he is still a baby and will only be three months on the 19th. I however have to keep them seperated until they are bigger. They have socialized before with one another but it's always supervised. It gets hectic at times, but at other times everything is calm, cool, and collected. I will say that it is a lot of work. 

Right now seperation is key for us, and I think key for you. You might also want to educate yourself in a variety of training tools for aggressive dogs, such as muzzles, or e-collars or prong collars... You get the drift.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I am even crazier than GSDOwner2008 as I had three young dogs all at one. Cheyenne is 6 months older than DeeDee and she is 6 months older than Lakota.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerI am even crazier than GSDOwner2008 as I had three young dogs all at one. Cheyenne is 6 months older than DeeDee and she is 6 months older than Lakota.


How did you do that? You must be very brave! lol


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your dogs got loose more then once and that is scary. 

I have two adult GSD's, one is friendly to everyone, the other protective of his property and me. If I heard a door slam, like the one on the SUV, the protective one would be in the house immediately. And the protective one is friendly toward about 90 percent of the strangers that approach. 

Nonetheless, a good behaviorist told me that is my responsibility to never put the dog in a position in which he might be harmed, or might bite someone. 

Build a fence, take then swimming and/or let them play in the house. A fence, or replacing a lamp is a bit cheaper then if one of the dogs bit someone.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Pretend you do not live in a house, you live in an apartment-- and you do not have two dogs, only one. Want to help your roomate out? Mow the lawn, wash her car, etc..... let her manage her own dog, so that you can focus on working with and training Doc. Fun to take both dogs out? Convienient? Yup and yup-- but it means the two dogs can happily tune you out.. you become ignored, and "odd man out." I am saying: Walk your dog, alone, on a leash-- as many times as he needs to go for a walk, play, be trained, go potty. This permits you to have a closer relationship, makes it easier to train your dog, and much easier to have influence & gain some psychological control over him under distractions.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am also a multiple dog owner, and yes, that IS similar to a multiple personality. At least it is pretty insane. 

My babies (Heidi, Whitney, and Tori) will be two in August.
Rushie was two in January. Babsy and Jenna will be three in August. Dubya turned four in June and Arwen turned seven yesterday. 

Obviously, I do not let a free for all happen. Before Arwen tried to kill Jenna when she was prenant with the babies, I let Arwen, Dubya, Babsy, and Jenna pretty much run together while I was there. When I was not, Dubya and Arwen shared a kennel or Arwen was in the house, and Babs and Jenna shared a kennel. Rushie started out in an x-pen in the girls kennel and pretty soon I built the puppy pen. and cut the big kennels in half so that I had a place for each of the dogs when I was not there. 

Babsy and Jenna shared a kennel for almost eighteen months with no problems, Jenna definitely the dominant one though. Separating them was a good thing for Babsy. 

When the babies came and they shared the puppy pen until my brother brought his pup back at 15 weeks. I put her in with the other pups, and soon it became evident that she was being bullied. I had to get very creative with x-pens until my new kennels were built. Now everyone has their own place again. 

Now I would love to let my whole crew run around together "playing." For a while I could. One day Dubya decided that Rushie was a threat and attacked him. Rushie went back at him. Rushie was 12 months. While using a kennel gate to separate them, finally getting them apart, I heard an explosion in the house. Arwen had taken the opportunity to jump Jenna. Jenna was 18 months old and Arwen decided she needed to go. I came in and Rushie jumped into the fray. 

Scooping Babs out of the way and into a crate, and then Whitney, and then Rushie, pretty soon I had just Arwen and Jenna going at it. I managed separating them, but these two were both injured. (The rest had no wounds). It is a harrowing experience when bitches you absolutely adore are doing their best to MURDER each other. 

At this point I will let the dogs out with compatible bitches, Dubya with anyone who is not in heat, Rushie with anyone who is. One dog, one bitch, everyone else is crated or kenneled. The rest go out themselves. In fact, I only let the dogs and bitches run together as a rare treat, maybe once in a month. 

It is not hard. It takes 1/2 hour to get all of my dogs fed and transferred from their crate inside to their kennel outside in the morning, and a little longer in the evening as I clean poo, and fill water buckets then. In the morning, I have a small fenced field between the kennels. After dropping food bowls in each crate, I start with Whitney as she will be finished with her food and I let her out in the field. She runs about and poos and then she is placed in her kennel. I repeat the procedure until everyone has pooed and is in their day time kennel. Letting them poo first and scooping it right up, keeps the poo and flies down. It also keeps my poo eaters from imbibing. 

I find that while I like the idea of my dogs running and playing with each other, they are perfectly happy running and playing with me. I usually have one out while I clean the kennels and switch while I am filling the buckets. This is looked at as special bonding time, and they love it and we take turns who gets to be out with Susie while she does the work. 

When they are inside I kennel them to eat and sleep and try to kennel them next to one or two of the others that they tolerate. Arwen is NEVER kenneled next to Jenna, for instance. Outside, I do the same, but that does depend sometimes at who is in heat. All of my kennels share at least one side with another kennel. 

I am NOT suggesting that you need to build a fortress. I am suggesting that you need to be realistic. The boxer and the GSD were ok with each other, are ok with eachother, but they get into trouble together -- not good. The will live happy and healthy lives if they NEVER are left free together in a lot to play again. I am not saying that is 100% necessary, not forever anyway. But it is unnecessary to leave them out together to potty, or to play. 

It does not save time or energy. Dogs on their own will quickly get down to business once they get used to the routine. It takes me 1/2 hour, but that includes feeding and individual pooing for eight dogs. That is an average of less than four minutes per dog -- including feeding. Figure 6 minutes to pass out food and have it eaten, and three minutes each to poo and go into their kennls. Having two dogs out at once takes a lot more time and I only allow it on a weekend when I have the time. Then too I will open up the lower 40 and let one play in there for a while. I put my fences up myself, it was inexpensive, not an eyesore, and not all that difficult. Now, I am having a contractor switch out most of it to privacy fencing. 

The biggest problem people have is that they want to give the dogs a great huge yard to romp in. Fences for huge yards get to be overwhelming in cost as well as work. It is unnecessary. 

All that needs to be fenced is an area maybe 40'x 20'. It is much better if the back door opens into this area and that it is not visible from the street. Those are preferences, but in the morning, half asleep, fumbling with the door with an overanxious pup could cause an accident that you will regret forever. 

Good luck.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your last paragraph nailed it, but I fear the original poster will never do this.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for their input and responses! This board is a Godsend that has helped me on more than one occasion when I've ask questions. THANK YOU!!!

I'm gona try to address some of these responses:

-Using an e-collar... Ehhh, I'm not so sure about that. I don't have ANY experience with those and I wouldn't feel comfortable using one with my lack of knowledge and experience with it. Unless I decide to do some private lessons with a trainer, I might consider using it if other training methods don't work. With Doc's aggression issues, I don't want to make it worse by using the e-collar wrong. 

-Fencing...It would be nice if I could just go ahead and install fencing myself, but I don't have the skills/tools/experience to do it myself, nor the money to get it professionally installed at the present time. After a couple months of saving, it would be a definate possibility. But not at the present time. Plus, I don't want to get the cheapest possible fencing/installation out of desperation to have it done right now, only to have that backfire, and have one of the dogs escape from a poor fencing job. My roommate and I have talked about an invisible fence for the time being. If we did that, I would still have them on long leads, since we all know that a very determined dog could still blow past the invisible fence.

-Training classes... I don't have either of them in classes at the present time. I have been planning on getting Doc back into classes, but waiting till the move was over. Only thing that I hate about classes, is that they are all offered on week day evenings and saturdays in my area. I work M-F weekday evenings and I can't easily switch shifts with people. I don't have a free Saturday until mid-July. Luckily, I did find one 3 week class that meets Sunday evenings at 5pm starting next weekend, but it is a class that deals with specifically with leash pulling. Doc doesn't pull as much as he did when he was younger, but he definately isn't perfect on a leash either. I figured just going to ANY class at this point would be good for the both of us to be in a structured learning environment. I will either start up regular classes in mid-July, or I was thinking of calling up the trainer from the school I was planning on going back to in mid-july and seeing if they do private lessons. The trainers are a married couple who have been trainers for 20+ years. They also have 3 shepherds and use them for demonstrations in all of their classes. They are the only people I know with shepherds in the area. I especially am interested in having the woman working with me, she is similar as far as being a small woman, but she is such a wonderful leader, I want her to teach me how to be a strong 100 lb pack leader!!



Now that we have established the seperation factor, what type of exercises should I be doing with them? 

I already do a bit of 'focus' with Doc, but that is more while I am doing NILIF. I'll have him sit and wait while I hold the door open, then won't release him until he makes about 5 seconds of eye contact with me. Same with when he is in a sit/stay when I fill up his food bowl. But these little focus/eye contact exercises that I've done haven't led to him completely looking to me as to how he should react. What do I need to work on order to get to that point? As in step-by-step, how do I work up to that?

Also, what can I do to help with territorial aggression? I don't want him to be aggressive towards the neighbors. What are exercises that we can do every day? I want strangers/walkers to be able to pass by us in our neighborhood or walk into our yard without him going into "aggressive" mode. I know this goes back to getting him to focus on me and look to me on how to react. After a couple lunging incidents while on walks in our old neighborhood, I worked on keeping a loose leash and getting him to sit or laydown anytime someone would be walking by us. This worked very well, but I feel like there is way more that we could do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that you need to find a great trainer, one willing to assess your dog and work with you and within your schedule. The dog will not do any better living under the bridge with you because you lost your job. 

I think that the classes with other dogs and people are definitely important, even if they are working on something other than what you need. It does not matter. They can work on loose leads while you work on a loose dog. No one needs to know what you are working on. But it may be wise to let the trainer in on it. They can make better suggestions than we can because we are only hearing what you are seeing. A good trainer can see what we ourselves do not see. 

Socialization is another key to the kingdome. One new person, place, or thing every single day. But do not over do it. Gage your choices as to what to expose him to by how he is doing. If he is still lunging after small dogs, a parade is probably not a good idea yet. You want to avert your dogs attention on to yourself before he becomes over excited. Ham, steak, bolony, cheese, hot dogs may be more exciting than the smelly hobo or the mailman. 

Another thing you can do is take secondary treats -- not fresh meat or cheese, but pupperonis or natures recipe venison snacks-- something in that line and give them to willing participants and teach them how to offer them to your dog. First not looking at him in the eyes, hand outstretched, eyes averted treat in the middle of the palm of the hand. dog is leashe and you say "gentle" or "easy" as a reminder, then when he takes it nice, say "good hello" or "very nice." You do not want to party like there is no tomorrow about this, just give him a bit of praise. 

Good luck with your boy.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

I would also like to expand upon the socialization and training. Always be calm and assertive with your dog; I know that if I excite Apollo with too much praise that it's harder to teach him new commands or socializing him. It's a common mistake I feel many make and don't realize it, especially in your situation where it is key not to excite the dog or he will misbehave.


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## Maedchen (May 3, 2003)

Before the dogs get shot by the neighbors or you get into real trouble with the police, get up a fence!!! Wire/ or chicken fences and alike put in the ground with metal stakes are cheap and fast to do (I did it myself). You can look up Craigslist or Freecycle for used/free fences too.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

I am not sure that you would be able to "train" out the territorial stuff. I mean, the breed is supposed to be alert to their territory and what happens on it. Is it realistic to expect this dog to ignore a stranger/neighbor who enters his territory? 
Ignoring strangers/neighbors on your walks is one thing. But to expect your dog not to react in a territorial way when a stranger/neighbor enters your yard might be too much.
I guess a lot would depend on how well supervised the dog is. If you are always out in the yard with the dog, and the dog is always totally under your control, you could substitute the dog's territorial behavior with your obedience commands. But that kind of training takes a boat load of time. It doesn't happen as a result of a weekly class at Petsmart and a five minute practice in the living room every couple of days. 
My 18 month old male GSD is fearfully reactive to other dogs and I have been working with him on this for most of his life. I thought I knew enough to "manage" his behavior. I was very wrong. But even having the experience I do, and knowing that "management" wasn't enough, I wasn't aware of how involved and committed the type of training he needed would be. This kind of high level, advanced training is a whole different thing. But my choices were advanced training for the dog, or euthanizing him. I chose committing to the training.
It sounds like a fence is just not in your immediate future. That is understandable, given the situation. In the absence of a fence, you need to only handle one dog at a time while they are outside. Your yard needs to be only the potty place and not a play ground for the time being. Take them out, one at a time and on leash (not a long line), to potty.
Find somewhere else for their play time. Ask a friend to use their fenced yard for a good, long play time a few times a week. Amp up the walks on a daily basis, one dog at a time. 
And if you want the type of dog that drops into a down-stay the second you voice the command, and holds it while the neighbor/stranger walks into your yard, you need to put that kind of training on the dog. You need to find someone who is experienced in advanced training because not all trainers were created equally.
It is a pain in the neck, but you can do it. Thousands of owners of high energy dogs living in apartments do it every single day.
Good luck,
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

I think that the main thing is that the dog BELIEVE that you have things covered. A GSD will bark and carry on when a stanger looks at his property, but when You say "Enough" the dog needs to accept that you are aware of the threat and leave it up to the leader to manage it. If your dog thinks it is HIS house and HE is the king, Good Luck trying to get him to behave around strangers until that idea is purged out of his little brain. Training is a definite must as it will improve the leadership of the person so the dog will follow.

If the dog is very fearful, it lacks confidence in you as well. Sorry, but training should help here too. Sometimes for some reason agility training is a good confidence builder. If you work with a fearful dog to increase the dogs confidence and build the bond between you, the territorial stuff may simmer down a bit too. 

I will admit that my fearful babe does not like to shut up when I tell her I got it covered (Enough). So we are back at class and trying to build her confidence some more.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Current Update:

I have been in full control of the dogs all week, keeping them both leashed at all times, leashes in hand. I've been doing short 10 minute daily training sessions with both dogs also. Not training new tricks, but reinforcing what they already know. So far that has been going good, no more incidents involving getting loose or them riling eachother up.

But there was another territorial incident this morning that involved just Doc and I. We walked to a new area with walking trails that is nearby my house. There were a couple walkers that passed us in the new area and one of them had a small dog. Both times these walkers were approaching, I got Doc onto the grass and put him in a down/stay. I got him to focus on me, released him from the down/stay and rewarded him with a high value treat that he rarely gets (hunk of cheese!). This procedure has worked well in the past for Doc when I was trying to fix his territorial aggression/lunging at people on walks in my old neighborhood. On our way back home, we were about a block away from the house and there were 2 men standing on the sidewalk. They were facing the street with their backs to us, not looking at us at all. As we were approaching near them, I repeated the same thing we did earlier on the walk (down/stay, focus, then reward with cheese). When I released him from the down/stay, he showed no interest or focus towards the 2 men, so we took a couple steps forward. With no warning signs, he tried to lunge at the men. I luckily pulled him back quickly and he didn't make physical contact. *sigh* Like someone mentioned earlier in the thread, doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the true defination for insanity!

Like I've mentioned before, he has never done this when we are walking in an area that isn't near our home. I take him to high traffic walking paths that aren't near our house all the time and there have even been times when he has been unexpectedly approached and touched by strangers in these unfamiliar areas and he either doesn't show much interest in the stranger or acts very accepting and happy to get the attention. I normally don't let strangers pet him, especially with his aggression issues, but there have been those times when you stop and talk to someone and they reach out to pet the dog without even asking. I was lucky and relieved that nothing came out of that, but it also opened my eyes as to how much more the aggression is territorial than just a fear towards approaching strangers. The place where he lunged today, was on a sidewalk that Doc and I have only been on about 5-6 times since we moved there, so he is becomming increasingly territorial. 

I can't just stop taking him on walks, I think him being limited to being in the house and backyard everyday would fuel the territorial aggression even more. Plus that defeats the purpose of seperating the dogs and spending one-on-one time with them. For the immediate future, I am going to have to put the mesh muzzle on him for walks. I recently bought a Gentle Leader, but I haven't introduced that to Doc yet. Once I introduce it to him and make it a positive association for him, I will start to use that on walks. Do you guys think this is a good tool to use for a dog with lunging issues?

Today, I got in touch with a well known animal behaviorist in my area (Linda Brodzik - http://www.lindabrodzik.animaltrainers.com/index.html). Hopefully we will be able to set up a time this week. My main concerns that I am bringing to her are:

-Territorial Aggression and the lunging issues. 
-Teaching "Enough" command when barking at people he sees out the window.
-Teaching better focus and working up to him looking to me on how to react in every situation
-Asking her to observe my actions, and point out my strongpoints and weaknesses as trying to be a good packleader.
-Working up to 100% recall and emergency down command.
-Controlling 2 dogs and keeping them both calm.


Any other suggestions as to what I should bring up to her, given the information that I've posted all over this thread?


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## scannergirl (Feb 17, 2008)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

I'd rather use a prong on a dog that lunges- the gentle leader I think is designed to prevent pulling on a walk and worked pretty well for me for that. The prong worked MUCH better for my dog who loved to chase cars but that was more a drive thing and not aggression. I also worry about injuring the neck if a dog lunged with a GL- anybody know if that's a real concern or am I just a worrier?


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

I've always used the prong, and it has been useful for quick corrections, like when he starts to pull on walks. But as far as lunging, everytime he has lunged while on walks, he was wearing the prong collar.

I should also mention that when the previous lunging issues first started, I found out that part of the problem was that I was holding him on a tight leash to try to prevent him from lunging when people would walk by... and I learned very quickly that the tight leash was fueling the problem. That's when I changed my approach to fixing the problem, by keeping a loose leash and distracting him when people were approaching with a sit/stay or down/stay, focus and then treat. That worked well for both Doc and I in the past, but today proved that that approach won't work 100% of the time.

I have never used a gentle leader, so I am unsure of how it would effect the lunging issues. I am open to suggestions.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Does Doc have a favorite toy, like a tug toy? Maybe you could get a doggie backpack and have him carry the toy, and maybe the treats until you see someone, and then pull them out and use it to distract him. Plus if you use a back pack, it'll do two things;

1. The dog will have a job and a sense of accomplishment

2. The weight of the backpack will help tire the dog out faster, and he might not lunge as much. It really depends on how focused an determined the dog is to get at the person, and by all means, please continue work with the muzzle.

I think its great that you're going to see the behaviorist, she can definately point things out for you that we can't because she's with you in person. Good Luck!


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

For the yard issue:
First few days in this house, my dogs were on tie out on cable runs. Once I got the part of the fence up that I could afford, I created a make-shift one out of salvaged material and welded wire fencing. A year later, I had the rest of the fencing installed. (I have a big yard.) 
Now, there's a cheaper temporary solution: Buy a large chain link kennel. They are cheaper than fencing and you can leave the dogs out for a bit safely and have them loose in this.

Here, it is illegal to not have your dog contained. It may be a technicality but that means behind a fence or on a lead or in your house. It does NOT mean in your yard with you out with them without a barrier or lead.

My dogs behave better around people on walks if they are in a very crowded situation. For instance, we could successfully do street fairs. For individuals walking, for their comfort, I distract my dogs, get them focussed on me and cross the street. After all, having a GSD decide to "speak" within a few feet of you can be very unsettling! Besides which it sets back our routine...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

A behaviorist that can evaluate your dog is a great idea. They can see more than we can through your posts.

One thing I noticed though. Before you came up to the guys, you had your dog lie down and focus on you. I am wondering if it is your response that the dog is feeding off of. Like, he senses that you are nervous and this is heightening his anxiety. 

I do not like that he did not growl or bark or raise his hair before he lunged. That is bad. Have you punished him for growling or barking or showing signs of fear aggression? I do not expect an answer on that. It is not important for me to know. What is important is that you evaluate your own responses to the dog and the environment so that you can provide the best possible picture for the behaviorist. 

Your dog is young and you should be able to work through or at least manage these issues without any contact ever. 

Why everyone is concerned about this is that a bite is devastating. It may mean losing your rental agreement. It may mean losing your young dog to euthanasia. It may mean using a muzzle when in public is no longer a choice. It could mean a serious lawsuit. And regardless it will mean that our breed will have another bite attributed to it, which means higher insurance rates, breed specific legislation, and poor public opinion of our dogs. When your neighbors came across the street to tell you that they are concerned for their children, I am glad you took this as a REAL wake up call. 

Good luck with Doc. If your trainer asks you to do stuff that sounds outlandish, bring it up here and ask. Odds are people can give you good explanations for most things. On other things, they may tell you to tell your trainer/behaviorist to get lost. There are good ones and bad ones out there, so do not do anything that makes you uncomfortable. Things I would NOT do even if a trainer told me to:

1. Strike the dog
2. Alpha Roll
3. Send it away to them for training for a time period
4. Placing an electric collar anywhere other than the neck and begining with it at any level higher than the lowest. 

Others may think of other warning flags. 


What I would expect from you behaviorist is focus exersizes, limited praise and treats, looking to you for everything, mental and physical exersize, working for everything, changing the tone of your commands and your body language and the like. 

I hope that this will work out for you.


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## Rosie (Oct 22, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

If you need more suggestions or help that is breed specific, the Mpls/StPaul German Shepherd club works with a training center in St. Paul. I know most of their classes are on Fridays but they have a website that you could check out. I know some of the members have rescued dogs so they know some extra tips on dealing with aggression. I don't know if I can give you the website but you should be able to do a search on it or go through AKC to get it.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Selzer - You see it just like I do. I wanted to correct this behavior before it turned into a bite incident, have to put him down and have Doc be another negative GSD statistic. To be completely honest, the thought of rehoming him crossed my mind. Not because I think he's hopeless and that his behavior problems are his fault, those are obviously a result of my behavior and reactions towards Doc, but because I have done SO much research and try to be a consistent and fair packleader, and it seemed all of these tecniques and programs I was trying was not working. I was starting to think that maybe I am just not cut out to be a dog owner and that I should rehome him with people that are very experienced dog owners and experienced with the GSD breed, so that he can live a good life without being so stressed out trying to take on the role of the leader. Hiring a behaviorist is my last attempt of changing my behavior and having her train ME to shape and change Doc's behavior.

Mary J - Thanks for the suggestion on the Mpls GSD club. I have looked into joining their club, but it looks like everything is done on Friday evenings, which I am always scheduled to work. I will have to look into if they have a forum similar to this, so I can atleast have contact with local GSD owners and club members.


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## DocBrown (Jan 19, 2007)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

UPDATE:

Today the behaviorist came to my house. We spent 2 1/2 hours together. She had A LOT of useful information and I have a very good feeling about her. She does not use any of the negative tecniques that Selzer listed above. She uses operant conditioning (Positive reinforcement, negative punishment, etc) and stresses alot about dog boundries, self calming, self control, etc. She was able to observe much of Doc's behavior and my reactions to his behavior. 

One instance made it very clear to me about how I need to change my behavior. I use NILIF, but I was using it in a bad way as far as reinforcing bad behavior. Doc was in the other room pushing around the empty water bowl. I got up and filled up the water bowl, had him sit (NILIF) and then set the waterbowl down. I thought I was redirecting his behavior by having him sit for me first and then setting his waterbowl down. But she said that even though I got him to sit before he was allowed water, I am still reinforcing that he is the leader, because I filled up the water bowl when he was giving his cue of pushing the bowl around. 

She gave me lots of hope today as far as knowing that niether myself or the dog are hopeless. She kept commenting on how beyond intelligent he is and that he is nowhere near the definition of an aggressive dog.

She also believes that the pinch collar has contributed to his territorial aggression when we are on walks. She said even though he may display different behavior when we are walking and wearing the pinch collar "outside of his territory", he only percieves approaching people as a threat in "his territory".

Anyways, I will keep updating as things progress.

Thanks again to everyone for the overwhelming response to my thread. I appreciate everyone taking the time to read and give suggestions. As a first time shepherd owner and dog owner (had dogs before, but was never the sole caretaker) I can't stress enough how much help this board has been.


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## GSDOwner2008 (Jan 19, 2008)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Yay! That's great news! So, hopefully with this behaviorist will help you turn things around, and you and Doc can live in a lower stress situation. Definately keep us posted on Doc's progress, hoping for the best for Doc!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

It sounds like a good start. Will you be working with her regularly, or how does that work?


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## longhairshepmom (Apr 7, 2003)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

Just for your information...

Putting a fence in isn't that hard to do. I used to be one that hired people for all kinds of things because I "wanted it done right" or "didn't have the knowhow or tools".

Well, so much for that.

Don't think because you hire people that things get done "better", its oftentimes just the opposite and you pay and insane amount on just installation alone.

I'm a 110 pound woman that never did big homeimprovements before.

Guess what, I took a FREE class at HOme Depot and learned how to lay tile. 

We prepared the floor and tiled 3 rooms, incl. removing toilets and re-installing them. The materials were CHEAP (even the tiles) and the work wasn't as bad either.

Since then I've gotten books or taken classes and just about everything to do around the house isn't that hard. Usually no special tools are needed and if they are, you can rent them.

Its just being willing to put the time and hard work into it. Most likely you will end up with a far better job, since you work for yourself and take care to do it just right.

You can find the material fairly cheap if you shop around. You can take classes FREE and even get the do-it-yourself books from the libraries.

You guys can do the fence together for a much smaller amount of money then you think, and I'm talking about a good fence !

Just do-it-yourself.

You will be so glad you did and start tackling all kinds of projects. The only things I won't do myself, are electric work and roofing now. Everything else is fair game


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

*Re: 2 incidents in less than a week involving the*

I am a fat, lazy woman and put the horse fence and t-posts, and electric solar powered fence in myself. 

But I used a contractor to build my kennels. He did a much better job than I could as he had the proper toys: for concrete, comealongs for the fencing, power saws and drills, etc. I can do some of it, but I would have to go even deeper in debt to buy the tools.


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