# Schutzhund Vs. Behavior Counseling



## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

In past threads I have mentioned Birbo and his "issues". 
Please understand that I cannot communicate every detail in one post, if you need clarification please ask and I will give more info. I have experience with aggressive dogs (I habitually rescue dogs with aggression issues), this is not my first trip out. 

The issue he has is aggression with people. He had a difficult start in life, he had 4 different homes by the time he was 1yo. One of his "owners" kept him shut in a room by himself all the time. They also kept a shock collar on him and shocked him frequently when "new" people were around. I think this has taught him new people = bad. 

Birbo is not the kind of dog that will actively go after someone with intent to kill. He is safe in public on a leash. 
Trouble seems to arise when a stranger tries to pet his head. When someone he does not know tries to pet him on his head he will snap at the air in their direction. It appears to be an attempt to scare them off and he does not appear to have a desire to inflict serious damage. 
If someone new appears nervous (or is a new person who happens to be drunk) in his presence and he is not on a leash he will follow said person and nip them gently on their rear. The nips are never enough to even leave a red mark, but are inappropriate.

I have met with a professional trainer (of K9's) Birbo completed a basic obedience class as well as some one on one attention. 
Over the year that I have had him he has made marked improvements. The next step for us will be with another professional, as I was not 100% on board with some of the first guys opinions.

Based on research and opinion from others well schooled in canine behavior my 2 options are to meet with a Schutzhund club or take him to a Behavior Counselor. I am looking for input on what may be more helpful for him. I am torn as to which may be more beneficial. The link to the Behavior Counselor (whom based on the info available I am not sure I have a lot of faith in) is Green Acres Kennel Shop | Behavior Counseling Pet Behavior Counseling Gre... | ?, Behavior, Pet, Animal, Days, Bach, Dog, Apdt, Training, Ceu?s 
Because of my location it options are limited. 
Thanks in advance for input!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

A SchH club will have members who are knowledgeable of the breed, but may not know how to manage a dog that is reactive to people.
Then again there may be some awesome people who could really help you.
So you need to maybe visit a club, explain the situation(have the dog eval'd too) and a club member or two may be the right person to help you. 
I'm not suggesting you train your dog in the sport(I don't think you are thinking this either)but visiting, making contacts with some good trainers can't hurt. 
Especially if you have limited options. Just go into it with eyes wide open!
I think first, I would go with the behaviorist.
Some schh clubs don't even want deal with people who are trying to "fix" their dogs behaviors...the time training at club is so limited.
I know our group would suggest other options, or the TD would set up private lessons to help, if he felt he could.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Info I forgot to add; 
With people he knows he is an absolute love. Anyone in his "inner circle" can do whatever they want with him (even take coveted marrow bones out of his mouth) and he will do no more than wag his tail and lick their face.
He takes time to warm up to someone, and once he does he will not forget them. Once they win his approval, all is well.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What are your goals? I get all the inquiries for my SchH club and I don't think we've ever had someone contact us and/or come out to visit based on dealing with a behavior problem and actually stick around. Our club has a limited number of resources which means we can't accept infinite members. Most good Schutzhund clubs are looking for people who are committed to training in those three phases. No dog is perfect, and often people find that other "issues" disappear or become non-issues while training for Schutzhund but it's training _*for Schutzhund*_. If you are interested in doing Schutzhund, check out all the clubs you can.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> I'm not suggesting you train your dog in the sport(I don't think you are thinking this either)but visiting, making contacts with some good trainers can't hurt.
> Especially if you have limited options. Just go into it with eyes wide open!
> I think first, I would go with the behaviorist.
> Some schh clubs don't even want deal with people who are trying to "fix" their dogs behaviors...the time training at club is so limited.
> I know our group would suggest other options, or the TD would set up private lessons to help, if he felt he could.


It is not my intention to go all the way with Schutzhund (he is likely to nervous to be a success). I do think the advanced obedience and tracking may be of benefit though. I have gotten the O.K. to meet up with the powers that be in our local club. They are interested in the situation and are willing to do their best to help. 
I am considering both, but the fact that I work with many veterinarians who have referred to the Behavior Counselors and have no input on results with people aggression good or bad is kind of swaying me away. I am all for putting money into him, but I want it to be beneficial.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Also, the thinking behind joining the Schutzhund club is that it may help him differentiate between a real threat and and and what his crazy mind perceives as a threat. As well as, give him more exposure to new people. 

If I were to go deeper into the training and he were a success, I would absolutely take it further. I am not trying to waste anyone's time the SCH club actually invited Bibo and I. With his issues known.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It will depend a lot on the club and the experience of the members. It used to be I would have recommended SchH people to help you with aggression issues, but now....... not always the case.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

It sounds to me like he needs more leadership from parent as to who is bad and who is not i.e. look to mom as to if she can handle the situation or not. I don't know if your local Sch. club will be able to help you with this or not. After all most of the time the clubs goal are to get a dog trained and ready to compete in the sport. Also looking at the green acre place oyu may want to get some client names and numbers to talk to about their success and failure rate, since their training methods may create more problems.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Just as an aside, I had/have a dog who was approachable, but not touchable, like the one you describe. I taught her to touch-the-hand for a treat with a clicker. Started with me, then moved on to people she knew, then acquaintances, then strangers.
It worked quite well. Now she sees hands in front of her as positive things.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I would try a behaviorist first unless you want to seriously train in SchH, which you said you did not. I would approach finding a behaviorist the same way Jane suggested for finding a club - go visit, watch some lessons and one-on-one time with other clients etc. With my reactive dog that flipped when being touched on the head, I did both the behaviorist and the SchH training - but, I am serious about being involved with the sport. I don't think I'd put the time/money into it if I wasn't wanting to actively compete.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> It sounds to me like he needs more leadership from parent as to who is bad and who is not i.e. look to mom as to if she can handle the situation or not. I don't know if your local Sch. club will be able to help you with this or not. After all most of the time the clubs goal are to get a dog trained and ready to compete in the sport. Also looking at the green acre place oyu may want to get some client names and numbers to talk to about their success and failure rate, since their training methods may create more problems.


When I first brought him home he met only close friends and family. He air snapped at my stepfather and my best friend. I do not believe I was nervous upon the meetings because I had not seen this behavior before and did not anticipate it. If I did join the club and he was successful I would be willing to take it further. I consider myself a fairly strong leader, I have rehabbed a few dogs with aggression issues, with great success. I think at this point I may be more apt to become nervous around Bo and new people b/c of reactions in the past. 
Speaking with clients is an excellent idea, but I do not know if it may not be possible d/t privacy issues? The person I spoke to on the phone was very vague and unwilling to connect me with someone who may be more knowledgeable. They want me to fill out a very extensive questionnaire and pay the $150 before they will even tell me if they THINK they may be able to help. I asked for success and failure rates and she avoided answering me! So, I guess my next step would be to call them again and drill them for more info.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

gagsd said:


> Just as an aside, I had/have a dog who was approachable, but not touchable, like the one you describe. I taught her to touch-the-hand for a treat with a clicker. Started with me, then moved on to people she knew, then acquaintances, then strangers.
> It worked quite well. Now she sees hands in front of her as positive things.


This is great! In general he refuses treats from strangers (he is not very food motivated). But, perhaps if I try his tennis ball . . .


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Is it really such a bad thing to join Schutzhund for the dogs mental soundness/stability Vs. the competition? Not trying to be argumentative, I just have limited knowledge of the sport.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

shannonrae said:


> This is great! In general he refuses treats from strangers (he is not very food motivated). But, perhaps if I try his tennis ball . . .


If you use a clicker/treats he does not have to get a treat from the stranger. How it generally is done is you teach the 'touch' and then when you have him 'touch' the person's hand YOU click and treat.

I've heard in the past that a dog with issues like this would not be recommended for Schutzhund training. However if you can find a Sch trainer that is very knowledgeable about dog behavior and the club/trainer is willing to let you only do tracking and obedience it may work out. Personally though I'd recommend a good behaviorist, and with the history you described, preferably one who focuses on positive reinforcement.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Chicagocanine said:


> If you use a clicker/treats he does not have to get a treat from the stranger. How it generally is done is you teach the 'touch' and then when you have him 'touch' the person's hand YOU click and treat.
> 
> I've heard in the past that a dog with issues like this would not be recommended for Schutzhund training. However if you can find a Sch trainer that is very knowledgeable about dog behavior and the club/trainer is willing to let you only do tracking and obedience it may work out. Personally though I'd recommend a good behaviorist, and with the history you described, preferably one who focuses on positive reinforcement.


The local club has a specific fee for only obedience/tracking memberships. 
From what I found the closest actual behaviorist (wich would be my first choice, if not for the several hour long drive) is in Mass. I live in central Maine, quite a haul . . . 

I have never tried clicker training . . . or teaching "touch" as a command. But now that it has been pointed out to me they seem like very good ideaa.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Chicagocanine said:


> If you use a clicker/treats he does not have to get a treat from the stranger. How it generally is done is you teach the 'touch' and then when you have him 'touch' the person's hand YOU click and treat.


That is how I did it. I clicked and treated, not the hand-owner. Another important thing is that the dog has to initiate the touch. Do NOT put the hand right up to the dog. As mentioned, I started with me and did not move on until the dog was very happy and pushing her nose into my hand. At first, when I started using other people, I had to help her a little by putting my hand with their hand.

My schutzhund club was helpful with this as the people understood not to pressure the dog, just to hold the hand out.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

gagsd said:


> That is how I did it. I clicked and treated, not the hand-owner. Another important thing is that the dog has to initiate the touch. Do NOT put the hand right up to the dog. As mentioned, I started with me and did not move on until the dog was very happy and pushing her nose into my hand. At first, when I started using other people, I had to help her a little by putting my hand with their hand.
> 
> My schutzhund club was helpful with this as the people understood not to pressure the dog, just to hold the hand out.



When I first Bo was first in my home he would react negatively even to someone just putting their hand out! Now he is ok with that . . . so, we are making progress, it just has reached a point where we are at a standstill. I am def. going to incorporate clicker training.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

After reading more info from you I would run away from that behaviorist. Have you contacted the breeder up near you Liberatore shpepherds, i believe. They might be able to point you to a trainer or behaviorist in your area. As far the surprise snap you nay have done other things beside be clam that tensed the dog and you did not recognize this. 
As far as joining to promote mental stability each club is different but most are leery of fixing problems in peoples dog when there goal is training in Sch. However if the local club offer ob/tracking only as an option it might be good.

For the hand out some dogs get sensitive if they for a long time only saw the palm of hand coming down to smack them. This can lead to them thinking that all palms are going to smack them so maybe work with asking people to present the tops of the their hands to Bo first.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

szariksdad said:


> After reading more info from you I would run away from that behaviorist. Have you contacted the breeder up near you Liberatore shpepherds, i believe. They might be able to point you to a trainer or behaviorist in your area. As far the surprise snap you nay have done other things beside be clam that tensed the dog and you did not recognize this.
> As far as joining to promote mental stability each club is different but most are leery of fixing problems in peoples dog when there goal is training in Sch. However if the local club offer ob/tracking only as an option it might be good.
> 
> For the hand out some dogs get sensitive if they for a long time only saw the palm of hand coming down to smack them. This can lead to them thinking that all palms are going to smack them so maybe work with asking people to present the tops of the their hands to Bo first.


I also had not thought of asking local breeders for recommendations. Good idea. Thanks

I really appreciate everybody's input! If anyone has any additional info, feel free to add it! So far you have all been very helpful!


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

shannonrae said:


> Is it really such a bad thing to join Schutzhund for the dogs mental soundness/stability Vs. the competition? Not trying to be argumentative, I just have limited knowledge of the sport.


Most schutzhund clubs have very limited resources and are not looking to spend time on what they would call a "pet issue." What exactly are you hoping to get from a schutzhund club? I'd be worried that it might be too much for this dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

shannonrae said:


> Is it really such a bad thing to join Schutzhund for the dogs mental soundness/stability Vs. the competition? Not trying to be argumentative, I just have limited knowledge of the sport.


Schutzhund is a LOT of work, not just for the handler and dog, but most SchH people and clubs are fairly tight knit and spend just as much if not more time helping each other out than only focusing on their own dogs. We can't really say if it will suit you or your dog. All I can say is most times when people come out to visit and their primary interest is fixing a dog's issue rather than the three phases of SchH, they do not return or wash out very fast. It is a LOT of commitment as far as time, money, and energy both for the handlers and the rest of the club. The 80/20 rule definitely applies! 

Whether or not the dog is suitable...we should not judge online. I would check out several clubs and see if you feel there is a fit. I would not pick a club based on closer proximity, less cost, or being enamored with the trainers "qualifications".


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## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

Although people are swaying you from Sch, i'd strongly recommend going and talking to the people, especially if they invited you in the first place. They may not want to help you with these issues at THEIR meeting times, but it is completely conceivable that one or more of them have extensive experience with these dogs and your issue in particular and agree to help you outside of the schutz club.

The trainer I work with is exceptional and is an active member of a sch club, but his day job is running a training facility and kennel--so you could get lucky and run into someone like that.


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## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

The worst thing that could happen is they say "no sorry we don't do that." and give you an uncomfortable feeling that might last 5 mins, then its on to other options. So go.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Exactly Dr89....And knowing the actual breed will help in evaluating process. 
Every club I've gone to has a few great members that know how to evaluate and work out these issues, if they have the time and are willing to help is another thing.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

While I did not actively seek out Schutzhund for my dog, I have had interest in doing tracking and have always had a profound interest in obedience. I think that the fact that club members encouraged me says something here!

Also, I find the fact that they offer a tracking and obedience only membership very endearing. It means I can devote time to the two aspects I am very interested in, and not be expected to "step out of my comfort zone". Unless, I want to.

I was not looking for anybodies advice on if Bo would be suitable for any activity. That would not be advice I would seek on an internet forum. 

My goals when starting this thread were;
A. Get opinions on the BC (based on website)
B. Learn a little more about SCH
C. Get more different perspectives on training

Thanks to some very clever people, my goals are being realized! 

Perhaps I could just do both BC and SCH. . .


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Dr89 said:


> Although people are swaying you from Sch, i'd strongly recommend going and talking to the people, especially if they invited you in the first place. They may not want to help you with these issues at THEIR meeting times


That is totally FINE! 
And, I would not expect them to! That would be very rude of me. The way I believe joining the club would help Bo (another list, sorry);
A. Give him an activity to build his confidence
B. Stimulation for Bo
C. Bonding with Bo
D. More positive or neutral socialization for Bo
E. Exercise
F. Learn more about GSDs and dogs in general (hey, there is ALWAYS something new to learn)

In no particular order, there are probably some I missed.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Schutzhund is a LOT of work, not just for the handler and dog, but most SchH people and clubs are fairly tight knit and spend just as much if not more time helping each other out than only focusing on their own dogs. We can't really say if it will suit you or your dog. All I can say is most times when people come out to visit and their primary interest is fixing a dog's issue rather than the three phases of SchH, they do not return or wash out very fast. It is a LOT of commitment as far as time, money, and energy both for the handlers and the rest of the club. The 80/20 rule definitely applies!
> 
> Whether or not the dog is suitable...we should not judge online. I would check out several clubs and see if you feel there is a fit. I would not pick a club based on closer proximity, less cost, or being enamored with the trainers "qualifications".


This is the truth. When I first joined my club, I went in wanting to be the selfish one and only focus on my dog, his training and eventually his achievements. Come to find out, I actually help out more with others than I do my own. I LOVE the members in my club and have great times outside of training (dinner nights), times laughing at each other, times we go back and forth giving each other a hard time and laugh about it, times we come together to grieve one's loss, times we can call each other up in the wee hours of the morning to ask what to do when a dog is sick, etc. 

I swear, these are people I'd have no problems being stuck in a bunker with bombs going off all around us. It's nice to know that my dog is their dog and their dog is my dog regardless of actual ownership.

You can actually walk into any SchH club and tell who's actually there to achieve titles and those there to achieve status and those that are there to say they train in SchH and those that are there to cause problems.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

shannonrae said:


> Perhaps I could just do both BC and SCH. . .


This is what I did. I found it very helpful. However, my behaviorist was totally supportive of SchH and thought it would do us well to be involved in. I think that is a unique perspective among behaviorists. My SchH TD was tolerant of anything I wanted to try after I came from my behaviorist and my SchH club was incredibly supportive no matter what decisions I made. Honestly, the network of people I had was invaluable to me and I wouldn't give any of them up.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Someone mentioned that you are near Liberatore Shepherds....if so I would take the dog up to Angie and have her look at the dog and tell you what she thinks is your best course. She has vast knowledge in training a dog and reading temperament. You can tell her that Cliff sent you.
Cliff


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## Dr. Teeth (Mar 10, 2011)

From reading all the replies it seems the advice is falling both ways... yes inquire about schutzhund, and no try other things. 

As for schutzhund, aren't you required to have a dog that will not bite at inappropriate times, one that can discern who is a threat and who is not? schutzhund educates dogs that are clear in the head to know what and how to respond vs. an uneducated dog that may be confused at a time of stress. 

I have never heard that schutzhund training was a method used to straighten out dogs that had agression issues from mistreatment? I don't know for sure, I just never heard of it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's really up to the club. Also a lot of "issues" are handler issues. Not saying that is the case here, but that happens a lot. Nothing really wrong with the dog, but the handler is the one that needs work. Because of the breed, sometimes working with a good SchH club is more in line with what the dog and handler need.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here is my rather jaded opinion. People who refer to themselves as "behaviorlists" usually do not have a clue about the differences in dog breeds, dog behavior in general or how to train one. Some of the absolute worst advise I have heard concerning aggression issues, was offered by one of these self proclaimed experts.

Schh clubs are not usually the place to go either. Many SchH clubs will simply label your dog and advise you to get something else, usually something they bred. 

There was a rather long thread concerning aggression, here it is:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/159417-aggression.html

Read it. Also, if your dog does not like people petting him, why are you allowing them to try? This is simply making matters worse. Ask your dog to sit and allow him to look at the people or things that disturb him. Make sure YOUR behavior is relaxed and confident, so he doesn't feel tension coming from you. Tension puts the dog on alert.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Someone mentioned that you are near Liberatore Shepherds....if so I would take the dog up to Angie and have her look at the dog and tell you what she thinks is your best course. She has vast knowledge in training a dog and reading temperament. You can tell her that Cliff sent you.
> Cliff


Thanks
Checking the website now!


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Vandal said:


> Also, if your dog does not like people petting him, why are you allowing them to try? This is simply making matters worse.



I do not allow people to pet him. I have had him for a year and no stranger has touched him in about 11 months. When I first got him I was unaware of this problem. The prev. owners told me he was pretty much a "monster", I needed to see for myself what exactly was going on. I do have him sit and people watch.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i just sent you a PM and Angie was the one i mentioned, i train with her, and Cliff is right on, she is amazing at reading dogs............


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> i just sent you a PM and Angie was the one i mentioned, i train with her, and Cliff is right on, she is amazing at reading dogs............


So far that sounds like my best option! I still have an interest in SCH. If I join (after observing) and decide it is not for me (or Bo) then I guess I am out a membership fee!


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## crown86 (Feb 23, 2010)

My GSD Roscoe sounds like Bo when I got him a year and a half ago. He was Cujo 100%..lunging biting the works. I knew nothing of the GSD breed prior except go to training. I got him as an adoption at 1 year old, lol when I met him with the orginal owner he bit me in the stomach. He an I laugh about it today. At the time I was like hmmm ok I love you buddy lets go your my dog.

After I got him home, he was very well behaved in the house..ie no chewing, potty trained, would go to his crate on command etc. The orginal owner did not abuse him. He did live in a VERY rough neighborhood and was definitly a protection peice I would guess.

Now Roscoe is living in a beach town with retirees for the most part and the Cujo routine might have been ok with crackheads but it was definitly not acceptable with 80 year old women and folks walking on the beach wanting to pet him. He would bark, lunge..100% agressive.

I contacted a few trainers, which at the time being in a small beach town was no easy feat to find someone good. I am from the city and take these services for granted. Anyways I found a woman who trains service dogs and I liked what she had to say the best...she made sense to me. She told me to wait a month before starting to let him fully adjust to his new environment. She said he was going to be on his absolute best or worst behavior intially and then would become more of himself. She was right, he was VERY good except for the agression outside and strangers. Then around 3 weeks his behaviour was slipping.

I had a friend come over one night. I don't lock my doors and a lot of my friends just walk in. Mistake..Roscoe went to town on him and bit his hand. I completely blammed myself...the guy walked in and startled me and that was all Roscoe needed...he came right off the guy but he ripped his hand pretty good. The guy was ok and did not get super upset...thank god.

Off to the trainer. This woman was amazing with dogs. She trains dogs to be service dogs. I have had dogs all my life but went in with the attitude I know NOTHING. I figured my dog is out of control her dogs open doors and lock them with their teeth, I am going to shut my opinions off. I paid like a grand for 11 weeks of 1 on 1 training...the woman went way over and above the time allotments, I am very greatful for this. Also, at the time in my life I HAD the time to invest...thank god.

Her first impression was he is a great dog, very smart, a small amount of bully in him, and a ton of fear which manifests as agression. I thought hmm ok..how do we fix it...her response a lot of work and a TON of socialization.

She explained to me a lot of the work was going to be with me NOT him..man was she right. Almost from day one he would do anything she wanted him to do..me LOLOL..NOT. One of the first things she had me do was a "look at me exercise". I would feed Roscoe every morning out of my hand, a handful of food at a time. I would take his food hold it under his nose and he had to ignore the food and look into my eyes. I would move the food around he had to ignore and stay focused on me. This went on for well over a month. I asked her why am I doing this..lol I felt like the karate kid..she said just do it..wax on wax off.

This was not easy at all. One like your dog Roscoe at first was NOT AT ALL motivated with food or treats...that took time. My trainer also explained I was speaking to him all wrong. When I said look at me I would get a high pitch at the end and he would not do it...Once I mastered the speech lo and behold he responed. No yelling, no frustration, no uneasyness or fear in the voice..a stoic almost...easy said then done..trust me.

Other thing from day one at training was a pinch collar and how to fit it and use it properly. I swear by them now. The lunging, pulling and barking stopped imeadiately. It was like cruise control on a walk and very enjoyable to walk him. I still would not let people pet him, but at least I could walk him and him be under control. He is 80lbs and strong as ****. He is black and tan and folks ask all the time am I a cop...lol No.

Next, after the trainer had me seeing and understanding things more was to tackle the fear agression. Her method was more or less face the fear and the fear dies. Her and I spent SO MUCH time in pet smart with "Hi I'm John will you pet my dog" I was sick of it..lol BUT **** if it didn't work big time. I use to feel bad hanging in the store for a few hours at a clip and not buying anything..lol it was like I worked there.

Again the trainer was all over me..she would pound me with " stop being afraid he will be fine" She told me he is a barometer of my feeling..he know how I feel before I feel it...I began to understand what she meant...If I was nervous with him around people..so was he. This took a while for him an me to get over. I was so afraid if he bit someone..my friend is one thing but a stranger would not be like a really good friend.

**** if he didn't respond, at first he was VERY shy. Then after about 3 weeks he started to really enjoy some people...it was crazy to me..it was night and day from when I got him. I started notcing the people that came up to him and were like hey buddy how are you and pet him without thinking about it..he wanted to play. If people were nervous..he got nervous. So what did my trainer do..she made me seek out shyer type people..lol..**** this was hard. At this point she had NO FEAR he would bite..and he never came close.

After about 3 months I kept on with more training...Total was around 9 months. From her having a service dog liscence, she would take Rosce to places like Home Depot and Walmart with a service dog in training vest with one of her dogs. It was amazing to see my boy sit and lay in asile while I walked 2 alsiles away and stay in a lay position with people walking by him and stopping and looking at him. NIGHT AND DAY. 

I could go on and on about the training but the end result today Rosce has a very normal life and has a VERY good handle on his fear..lol and MORE importantly so do I. The thing in my case I learned it was MORE me than him..he needed guidance I neeed to learn how to provide it.

I recently moved back to the city and am in a temporary rental till the lease is up on the home I own..long story there moved to my beach house for the quiet life and hated it..too young at 43 I guess. I have to take him to a dog park..yeah yeah I know..for frisbee. He is awsome..I get compliments all the time on his behaviour. People can approach him now no problem. He is not going to be all licky licky and super friendly..he is still cautious of strangers..but my trainer said that is more the natural tendency of the shepherd in him.

I do notice though if I slack with keeping him around people he will back slide a bit..not major or alarming but small things I notice...so I always have to be on top of him..which I love the challenge of Roscoe. I had him involved In Dock Dogs..lol he didn't do great but he had fun. It was so nice just to see him around people and dogs with no leashe and no fear. But man it took a lot of work.

I know no too ddogs are the same and your situation can be completely different. You sound very committed and I hope you find the right person to help you. Good Luck


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

I wish I had access to a trainer like that. Bo would have been there, like, LAST YEAR! 
I am trying to get in touch with a couple of people, who may be able to help. 
Thank you for your uplifting story! Maybe there is help for Bo after all!


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

Update . . . 
Several weeks ago I started Bo with one on one training in my area. They trainer evaluated him and told me, we could work on his issues. I have been following the trainers instruction to a T. 
Things were going well until this weekend. . . 
Bo jump up and grabbed my friends arm. It was not friendly, Bo growled and made such a racket about it I heard him inside and went running to see what happened. No harm was done to my friend not even small red marks. The upsetting part was that Bo KNOWS this person and has been very friendly with him in the past.
Bo also growled and snapped at my stepfather (twice). Historically Bo acted like he loved my stepfather. Trying to climb in his lap to lick his face and dancing around all happy when greeting him. The first time Bo was laying in the middle of the floor and my stepdad stepped over him, Bo growled an snapped at stepdads foot. The second time Bo, my mother and I were inside the house and stepdad walked in, Bo jumped up at him and snapped/growled.

I had hope that I could fix him. 
But showing aggression to people he knows is an entirely different game.
I think I have a difficult decision to make.
I am praying for the courage to do what is right for him. 

P.S. If you dont have anything constructive to say please dont comment. I have not stopped crying since about 3 pm yesterday, I am really fighting to hold it together. . .


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

We do professional training and deal with reactive and/or aggressive dogs pretty regularly. We frequently suggest they get the dog involved in Schutzhund as part of the training program, but since my husband is the TD we can supervise the training. Our club is not competition focused like many clubs (our prior club was and we got tired of the drama), so there is time and the willingness to work with a dog with issues. We feel that the training offers many benefits, the 2 main ones being a confidence builder for the dog, they learn they are part of a team and they learn that mom/dad will handle a situation and will alert them to a bad guy, they don't have to assume everyone is a bad guy. The other is the "out" command. Very handy when you have a snappy dog, we teach a very solid out command(usually starting with treats/toys and tugs before the sleeve or wedge) and teach the handlers how to use the out command in daily life. 
Tracking also builds confidence. 
There are many ways that Schutzhund is helpful in dealing with issues, but you absolutely have to find the right club. We use the club in partnership with private lessons and daycare. It isn't a quick fix, though. Time will be the costliest part .


Annette


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Have you talked to your trainer about this?


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

I have not stopped crying long enough to call his trainer. I plan to speak with him as well as email his breeder. 
I find the fact that aggression is now spreading to family members alarming. 
It shows me he has gotten worse. 
I have failed him.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

It sounds like you are trying your best-thats all you can do-hope talking to your trainer and breeder helps


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

you are not failing him, don't blame yourself, you've gone above and beyond..

Did you ever connect with Angie??? I highly recommend it if you haven't,,she has done wonderful wonderful things for debbie and her dog..

It may not be an easy fix,,I am not excusing his behavior, but the first episode with the friend, were you IN the house? If not, maybe a reason there,,second with stepdad stepping over him? startled?? last one, I know you were in the house..

Dogs always have their own reasons for doing what they do, whether it's good or bad, they have a reason,,it's difficult at times to figure out just what that reasoning is? Where is the dog coming from? What's going thru his head? 

Right now, I'd just keep a tight rein/eye on him and his behaviors, so no one gets hurt...contact Angie, if you haven't already done so, she has really good insite into dog behaviors and working to correct/rehabilitate them.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I didn't read through the whole thread again, but have you have had a complete thyroid panel run? I have been surprised at the changes in some dogs who had a problem with the thyroid (showed no symptoms other than in behaviors) and were put on medication.


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> you are not failing him, don't blame yourself, you've gone above and beyond..
> 
> Did you ever connect with Angie??? I highly recommend it if you haven't,,she has done wonderful wonderful things for debbie and her dog..
> 
> ...


Yes I was in the house.

Thanks for the support guys!

I did contact Angie and she meets on Saturdays. I work from 10am until 10pm and unable to change my schedule. I am new at this job and do not have the power to demand days off. I asked the office manager and was told I MAY be able to get one Saturday off but not several. I emailed Angie regarding one on one sessions at another time and did not get a response. Maybe I should try again? I am almost considering taking him to Tufts, but I would only be able to do it once or twice.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i am really sorry to hear this, please don't give up on him, he sounds alot like my male and i have made progress with him............i don't know who you have training you here, you can pm me i am sure i probably know them.........

Did you ever do the tracking with him yet? also, have you ever corrected him for aggressing with people? i remember Angie mentioned she was going to email you back, she might have forgotten she is very busy, so, i would email her again, and see if you can get with her, she deals with all kinds of aggressive dogs and dogs with special issues.....i have tried all the trainers in this area, and no one could give me any answers.....Angie has been the only one................

My male will always have to be managed, but one thing i don't do is leave him unattended with anyone alone...........there are even times when he will growl at people he knows well, people who have played with him and touched him previously and he seemed to like it, tail wags etc...........the same people can touch him or be sitting above him while hes on the floor and he growls at times...........basically, his whole life has to be controlled and i Will correct him for things that are inappropriate.............you have to be able to access the situation and know how to handle it appropriately via a correction or controlling the situation because they are doing it out of fear..............the best thing is not to let the dog interact with anyone unless you can be right there, to do otherwise is setting him up for failure at this point..........Please don't give up on him yet, i know how frustrating it is, but there are people who are qualified to help around here as mentioned before..........


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i also had a thyroid panel done on my dog through Jean Dodds and everything was normal for us...........first time in my life i was really hoping something would show up, then i could give him a pill do some counter-conditioning and life would be good................NOPE, not my luck! lol


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## shannonrae (Sep 9, 2010)

PMing you!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Debbie, try her again, I know as debbie says, she is a busy person, but hopefully could make time for you keep us updated!


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Any news on any training yet? i was really hoping you could get in with one of the suggestions fairly soon......


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