# Black + White = Wolf?



## atravis

So I came across some photos today, claiming to have a "silver sable" GSD out of a solid black x solid white breeding. Here's the link:

Spirit of the Wolf on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

I know silver sables actually exist, but I've never seen one that looks even remotely like this.
This dog looks like a mix to me, plain and simple. I don't believe for one second that its pure GSD, but now I am curious as to what the actual results would be from a black x white breeding cross?

I know both are receive colors... but I'm not big on genetics, so I have no clue as to what that kind of a mix would produce.

Any insight?


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## Mrs.K

Wow.... never seen anything like that before.


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## onyx'girl

That is not a GSD.


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## LaRen616

Whatever that dog is he is BEAUTIFUL! Wow


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## Konotashi

He doesn't look purebred. He looks like he's probably part husky, by the facial markings. Just a guess, though.
Either way, that's a beautiful dog.


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## Syaoransbear

I wonder if that dog is registered or not


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## onyx'girl

DNA would be interesting.
Did you see some of the other photo's on that link? He is stunning. And another dog on there looked alot like Liesje's Coke.


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## phgsd

I can't comment on whether he is pure GSD or not - he doesn't look it. But the white gene in GSD's is a masking gene, so the white parent could have genetically been a sable...so black x white could have produced sables.


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## DancingCavy

Based on the dog's looks, I wonder if the white dog was really a white Husky and not a white GSD.


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## atravis

I agree, whatever he is, he's gorgeous. But purebred, I highly doubt. 

phgsd- interesting! Didn't know that's how the masking gene worked.


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## ChristenHolden

My pup is out of a solid black mom and solid white dad and her pups were mostly solid black and the rest were black and silver. All very pretty


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

onyx'girl said:


> That is not a GSD.


I dunno i saw the other pics 







http://www.flickr.com/photos/jsnail17/2391899649/in/set-72157606853633235/
I'm a handsome boy! on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
My ears are so big, they don't fit in the frame! on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

he looks VERY gsd to me

Gorgeous dog though. If this is a GSD (and i'm pretty sure he is.) I want one. coolest thing I've ever seen


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## Mrs.K

In the pics that joshua posted he does actually look like a gsd. Just imagine black or black&tan...


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## robinhuerta

With all the "weird" colors & patterns popping up recently with regards to the GSD....who really knows???....crazy stuff happening...for sure.


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## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> With all the "weird" colors & patterns popping up recently with regards to the GSD....who really knows???....crazy stuff happening...for sure.


Yeah, I have never heard of blue, silver or panda shepherds before I joined this forum... never seen any of these colors in Germany either. :help:


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## robinhuerta

Mrs.K*......."Only in America!"....*as our friends from Germany say!!! hahahaha!:silly:


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## RebelMoonGSDs

That's kinda neat! Pure GSD or not, he's a nice looking dog. Kind of looks like a Saarloos Wolfhond, to be honest!

Saarlooswolfhond - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Mrs.K

Why does everybody claim to "improve" the german shepherd by cross breeding them with wolves or other dogs. 

Jeeez....


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## JKlatsky

I think it's possible for it to be a GSD, it's just a very bizarre combination of markings. I think what throws everyone is the facial markings, but I have seen sable dogs that have those facial markings (light cheeks with a darker forhead and nose), they're jsut not as distinct because they're usually on a darker tan background. Obviously this dog is white where it should be tan so the markings show up darker and more distinct than they would on a normal colored dog. Consider this sable...If you made the tan a bright white, I think the markings would show up darker.









And I don't think his eyes are really as light as they appear in that first picture. Either the light is hitting them just right or there could be a little photoshop going on....

Personally this is not my kind of dog. Interesting maybe, But I don't think I'd want my dog to be a conversation piece with Joe on the street because it's some kind of bizarre, unacceptable color. Next thing you know everyone wants a Shepherd that looks like some kind of Aussie or White Fang. Get an Aussie or a Husky. I would rather my dog be a conversation starter with knowledgable owners because it's so correct in every way, and an educational piece for Joe to say THIS is what a GSD should be...


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## atravis

JKlatsky- I've seen the diluted masks before, but even with them, you could actually see some fragment of the black remaining. Even in the dog you posted, you can see the black around his nose/lips.

This dog has a white mask... exactly the same as a Malamute. I've never seen a PB GSD with this characteristic. Supposedly Eisenmann's London dogs did, but I've never seen it confirmed that they were true GSDs (I actually heard that the first London was picked up as a stray?). 

They remind me of a Tamaskan dog, actually. A more masculine version of this:
Ta-Kari Tamaskans, Colorado, USA - TAKEIA


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## JKlatsky

I don't like to call people liars outright when you'd need DNA to prove it. Just trying to be a little bit more of a Devil's advocate I guess 

It is visually indisputable though, that even if this a GSD (and I agree, that there's as much chance that it's not as is) it's incorrect to standard and while perhaps interesting to look at, should be given as much respect as people that promote the Rare Blue or Liver Shepherds. The dog should have been fixed and the breeder shouldn't put those dogs together again. Instead I'm sure that the dog is used to market all the wonders of Rin-tin-tin combined with the wild beauty of White Fang. Appalling. JMO.


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## APBTLove

JKlatsky said:


> The dog should have been fixed and the breeder shouldn't put those dogs together again. Instead I'm sure that the dog is used to market all the wonders of Rin-tin-tin combined with the wild beauty of White Fang. Appalling. JMO.


I didn't see where she was a breeder... Where did it say that?


He looks like a GSD to me, if you ignore the abnormal colors... I do not give a rat's patootie about color if the dog can _work_... Color, unless it's a potentially problematic color (like Merle, and how breeding two merle's together can cause serious problems)...

As for the dog, without seeing a pedigree there is no way in heck you can know. I don't care if it's a black and tan dog, while you can be pretty sure it's a pure bred, without documented lineage, how are you to say it doesn't have a malinois a few generations back? You can't.


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## Raziel

Deff NOT a GSD.
That is wolf. Look at his eyes.....
Pretty boy though!


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## GSD07

Raziel said:


> Deff NOT a GSD.
> That is wolf. Look at his eyes.....
> Pretty boy though!


So you see a huge resemblance between the two pictures? Especially with the eyes?
















and on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## APBTLove

Raziel said:


> Deff NOT a GSD.
> That is wolf. Look at his eyes.....
> Pretty boy though!


I think it was the light, J's eyes turn yellow in the right light with a picture...


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## atravis

I've never seen a pure GSD that looked like this. None with any distinguishable linage, anyway. 

If this is what the result in a black X white cross TRULY produced, I can pretty much guarantee that we'd be seeing a LOT more of them. I mean, what a pretty dog he is... the BYBs would have a field day. After all, the whole "looks like wolf but isn't" thing seems to be big with them. Hmm.


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## Doc

What part of the dogs structure does not look like a German shepherd? Head, legs, back? Forget its coloring for now. Is there something (other than color) that says "I'm not a pure bred"?


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## atravis

From the tip of the ears, to just under his eyes, you could have fooled me. Looks very shepherd.

But the muzzle area, and especially the nose, just seem highly "off" to me. 

Granted, the ones where he's looking straight at the camera make it a little harder to tell. But when his head is facing off to the side a bit, its more telling. The one where he's standing in the water, and the body shot where he's standing in front of it. 

Just don't strike me as shepherd at all.


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## APBTLove

http://www.kerstoneshepherds.net/colors/sable.jpg
Imagine this dog with no mask... Would you call her a mix, and not a GSD? Other than the mask, she is very close to his color.


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## atravis

APBT- I get your point, but consider also- she DOES have the mask.

I've never seen a GSD with a white mask. Even those without the black mask do not have the white Malamute-esque facial markings. 

My point being, IF this was a true black x white breeding, wouldn't we have seen it before? Why is this dog so unique looking? 

Again, if that's really the outcome of such a cross, we surely would have such a dog before.


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## APBTLove

atravis said:


> APBT- I get your point, but consider also- she DOES have the mask.
> 
> I've never seen a GSD with a white mask. Even those without the black mask do not have the white Malamute-esque facial markings.
> 
> My point being, IF this was a true black x white breeding, wouldn't we have seen it before? Why is this dog so unique looking?
> 
> Again, if that's really the outcome of such a cross, we surely would have such a dog before.


Oh I know, I've seen a breeding of a WGSD and a real BGSD, NONE of the pups looked like him. But I've seen stranger colors... HIS colors look like a Agouti Siberian husky, but conformation wise other than color, he looks GSD.. Possible he's got husky somewhere back in his breeding that popped up now?


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## Raziel

The pattern is not correct.
I have NEVER seen a GSD with these markings.


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## GSD07

Raziel said:


> I have NEVER seen a GSD with these markings.


 That's a very convincing argument  This pattern is called a reverse mask. Look up some pics of SunCzarina's Otto on this board.


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## atravis

Otto von Hena-c pedigree information - German shepherd dog

Is that him? To be fair, he looks NOTHING like the dog I posted...

Not having a mask is different than having a white mask...


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## MaggieRoseLee

Really just looks like a husky/GSD mix to me.


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## GSD07

atravis said:


> Otto von Hena-c pedigree information - German shepherd dog
> 
> Is that him? To be fair, he looks NOTHING like the dog I posted...
> 
> Not having a mask is different than having a white mask...


 Of course, he looks nothing like the dog from your pic. He's a DDR with no question about his linage.  

What makes you think that your dog has a white mask vs no mask? Just want to see your thought process.


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## atravis

Uh, because the sable on his face extends down his nose. That's a DISTINCTIVE marking pattern, not just the lack of a mask. If his face was solid white, then maybe you'd have an argument there?

Also, the contrast between the markings/white coat is extremely clear. It isn't as if the white just kinda fades off into the marking pattern, its DEFINED from it.


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## GSD07

I see. Then Otto has a tan mask in this case.
Here's another shepherd with similar coloring: Dog profile for Duke, a male German Shepherd/German Shepherd


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## atravis

No, you can see the faded bits around the front of his snout where the black mask should be. You can actually SEE black on the front of his snout, and around his lips. He actually looks very similar to Lord, who was also colored like this. There is no black/marking JUST on the top of his snout to define anything.

The dog you posted... on its own profile it mentions that the father was a King Shepherd... what more need be said?


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

GSD07 said:


> So you see a huge resemblance between the two pictures? Especially with the eyes?
> 
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> and on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


Again this cannot be a wolf hybrid, wrong head, wrong conformation and as stated wolf eyes are blue GSD eyes are brown. this is a silver sable GSD if i ever saw one. true not in germany, and also true, not to standard, but if the person doing the breeding is selecting for tempermant and drive as well as color then they have a talent and it's working for them. AKC accepts it because they are good on the papers. just like white GSD's. I think it's cool. but most definately NOT a wolf.


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## Rerun

I would think if this was just the result of crossing a black and a white GSD that we would see more that looked like this.

I bet somewhere in that dogs pedigree is a little something else, such as husky. Maybe the breeder really thought their WGSD or BGSD was PB, but it seems questionable to me that the color/coat pattern doesn't appear more frequently.

Certainly a beautiful dog, GSD or not.


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## robinhuerta

I think this is one of those cases, I would really need DNA proof that both parents are from clear bloodlines.....JMO.
Very different looking markings...I agree.


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## Catu

Not GSD, for many of the reasons stated above about color, but also, without the markings the head doesn't look right to me. Bu I'm not used to Am-lines dogs which I've seen have more collie expresion.

Wolf eyes blue?... maybe on cartoons...


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## APBTLove

JOSHUA SAMPSON said:


> Again this cannot be a wolf hybrid, wrong head, wrong conformation and as stated wolf eyes are blue GSD eyes are brown.


Wolves don't have blue eyes...? lol

REVERSE MASK was what I could not think of...


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## SunCzarina

The dog in question looks like a panda GSD. No that is not what's called a reverse mask...



atravis said:


> No, you can see the faded bits around the front of his snout where the black mask should be. You can actually SEE black on the front of his snout, and around his lips. He actually looks very similar to Lord, who was also colored like this. There is no black/marking JUST on the top of his snout to define anything.


Yes Otto does look like Lord, his great great grandfather. Here's a more recent pic (the one on the database is about a year old). Note there's no circle patterns on his head, just black eyeliner and big black bat - which thank Dog seems to be fading to red.


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## atravis

Thank you for the updated pic Jenn (he's very handsome btw!)

I think it goes without saying that the marking pattern of your boy and the one I posted are not even remotely similar.


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

APBTLove said:


> Wolves don't have blue eyes...? lol
> 
> REVERSE MASK was what I could not think of...


grey, blue whatever. They're not brown. that's missing the point. this dog _LOOKS_ like a GSD :gsdbeggin::halogsd::gsdhead: in the bone structure.


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## atravis

Funny, they look more golden brown to me.


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## robinhuerta

Wolves eyes are "amber"..(goldish brown)....I think that's the color term they use to describe them in the subject books on Wolves.......


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## atravis

And I'd just like to throw this out there~ Many GSD mixes look VERY shepherd-like.

Check out this dog:









Could almost be the dog in question's long lost brother, right?
He's a Northern Inuit dog. Essentially a Malamute/Husky/GSD mix. The resemblance is striking, no? Coincidence?

ETA: Another VERY GSD-like NID:


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

ok so we all learned something today. amber it is.


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## robinhuerta

Perhaps when "mixes" of the Northern Breeds occur...their color & pattern genes are prevailing dominent..?...since this seems to be the "look" of most?!
That "wolf" like color & appearance is being seen more & more with the mixes....

Any opinions??


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## atravis

^^^^

Would be very curious to know the answer to this question.

Also, one last Northern Inuit Dog:

Denver, Our Northern Inuit Dog on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

How many would question if THIS wasn't a true GSD? He's actually the same dog as the first NID I posted. He even does the paw tuck thing.

And yet? Not a GSD.


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## APBTLove

The ears are really different on NIDs... They're pointy like a husky's most of the time...

Yes, I AM just trying to keep this going, it's an interesting topic.


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## APBTLove

Like here, they show the ear shape... They're rounded softly at the tip.
King of the beach on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Look out... on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Whereas a NID either has sharp ears, or small, husky ears..
http://www.completedogsguide.com/images/dog-breeds/largepic/Northern-Inuit11.jpg
http://www.theinuitdogassociation.co.uk/Images/inuits.jpg


However, his color is strikingly like that of some NIDs.


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## Liesje

Whoa that other dog looks just like mine!!


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## atravis

APBTLove said:


> The ears are really different on NIDs... They're pointy like a husky's most of the time...


This is true, but I'm assuming NIDs are somewhat standardized at this point?
Where they're actually breeding NIDs to other NIDs, and not outcrossing? (I actually don't know the answer to this, if anyone does, please enlighten!)

I'm not insinuating that this is an NID... but perhaps a more recent GSD/Husky/Malamute cross. Which might explain for a more shepherd like appearance, ESPECIALLY if it was a pure GSD x GSD mix (like the one posted earlier that was a GSD x King Shepherd cross).


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## APBTLove

I'm not 100% on that... I've seen some NID breeders who claim to be mixing in WOLVES and GSDs still, but I'd call these BYBs.


Just for fun... His looks.
Granddam could have been a pure GSD.
Grandsire a Husky/mal/NID type.
Dam is the mix, ad Sire is a pure GSD.
Could be a high-content GSD mix, but with the colors of the other breeds...

Regardless, he's stunning. :wub:


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## Maedchen

He's clearly a Saarloos Wolfhound/Wolfdog which is a mix between GSD & wolf.


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## Melina

Okay, I searched for GSD's with a reverse mask, found this:

German Shepherd Puppies - Looking for Reverse Mask GSD

This guy is looking for a dog with a reverse mask, so he put up some examples. Check out the examples he put up on the right, the dog on the second row down, all the way to the right. I don't know how long this ad will be up, so I also copied the picture, so here it is again:










Look at the face, very similar. That doesn't really say anything as far as if this dog is a pure GSD or not, but if he is pure, it says more of him exist.

If you compare their coats, they look a little different, but there's an explanation. The initial photos were edited in Photoshop (I can tell because I'm a Photographer). Whoever took the shots went in and adjusted the contrast and saturation, making the difference in the lights and darks of the first dogs coat more obvious, so keep that in mind when looking at the two pictures...


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## Melina

Google Image Result for http://files.dogster.com/pix/dogs/91/983191/983191_1240452045.jpg

Not very good pictures, but this guy is sort of similar too, the dark parts on his face don't extend as far as the original dogs though

http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/info.html

This talks about genetics, mostly about blues and livers, but maybe can be applied to silver sables and how it can come about from white and black parents.


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## fightin14

I just read all 7 pages to see if anyone figured out how this look was accomplished, dang. I think this dog is absolutely gorgeous. Reading some of the posts on the Flickr account states that is is a mix of american and german lines black and white. I have half a mind to email this person and ask where the dog came from.


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## Jessiewessie99

I highly doubt its pure.He looks like he has husky or malamute in him.Or maybe wolf.But no pure GSD.Also the pictures look photoshopped.The pictures look almost "too perfect".

Otherwise beautiful dog.If someone were thinking of making a "White Fang" movie, Id suggest they get in contact with the dogs owner, he would get the part for sure.

fightin14-Id say just email them and ask.What harm could it do?


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## fightin14

It has been done. And there is definitely some post processing work on this. I am pretty sure there is some dodge and burn, and sharpening on the eyes. I looked through this person flickr page. Professional photog and it looks like the do a lot of animals.


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## Jessiewessie99

Or it can be someone claiming thats their dog and its actually a professional photographer taking pictures of a wolf or wolf dog with a regular dog and by itself.The pictures look too professional.Id say its a calendar shoot or magazine shoot and someone claiming its their dog when really its not.

Just a thought.


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## fightin14

By reading the posts she openly admits that it is not her dog but a friends. 
Here is her website.

Tail Waggin' Photography


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## Jessiewessie99

But I still dont think that dog she claims is a pure GSD is from solid black and solid white parents.She probably got it from a wolfdog breeder.

We may never know.........................


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## JOSHUA SAMPSON

ok the original post lists the link and the link has the picture and the picture has a caption "No, he doesn't have any wolf in him. Sako is a silver sable german shepherd, but this pic could make you think twice!" 

then a few lines down Jsnail17 says "enabeecroft-Sako is actually my friend's dog. He came from a cross breeding between german and american lines, a black gsd and a white gsd."

I still think the conformation matches a GSD so closely that i just dont see any mix in his BODY shoulders, head, pelvis, everything about him screams GSD. i've never seen a mix retain that much GSD conformation.


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## atravis

Melina said:


> Google Image Result for http://files.dogster.com/pix/dogs/91/983191/983191_1240452045.jpg
> 
> Not very good pictures, but this guy is sort of similar too, the dark parts on his face don't extend as far as the original dogs though


This dog is not a pure GSD. He's a GSD/King Shepherd cross (as per their own description of him).


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## MaggieRoseLee

Look at the tip of his tail....................Anyone have a GSD with that significant of a white tip?









PLEASE pay attention to the repeated info that the FIRST dog posted with questions has KING Shepherd in it. The following comes from http://www.trainpetdog.com/King-Shepherd/about-king-shepherd.html



> *About King Shepherd*
> *Origin and History of the Breed*
> The King Shepherd's origin can be traced to several different breeds. Although there are some differences in opinion regarding the exact breed make-up, it is generally believed that American dog breeders Shelley Watts-Cross and David Turkheimer developed this large breed from American and European German Shepherd Dogs, Alaskan Malamutes, and Great Pyrenees. An official breed club was established in 1995.


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## atravis

Maggie-
That dog actually looks even more like a NID than the original one I posted. 










Again, how many people wouldn't say THIS is a pure GSD? Look at his foot! He tucks!
But he is still a NID.


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## onyx'girl

What does tucking a foot have to do with it? I see other breeds do that all the time~didn't think it was exclusive to a GSD. 
I think these dogs are gorgeous!


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## atravis

I've never seen it. Its always been a shepherd thing to me.
Not saying others don't, but I consider that a "hallmark" of the breed. Never known one who _didn't_.


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## Dainerra

we've had many dogs of all types over the years and I've seen it in all of them (the foot tuck). definitely not a "shepherd" thing any more than the head tilt is. The shepherds do seem to use the tilt as a communication more than most other breeds of dogs!


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## onyx'girl

Onyx and Karlo both doing the foot tuck as I type...


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## atravis

Then perhaps they use the foot tuck more as well, because, again, I've never met one who didn't. 

Many types of dogs also have a "vanity mark"/chin mole, but I also note that to be another shepherd hallmark.


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## Catu

atravis said:


> Maggie-
> That dog actually looks even more like a NID than the original one I posted.
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Again, how many people wouldn't say THIS is a pure GSD? Look at his foot! He tucks!
> But he is still a NID.


I would say it is not a pure GSD


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## Dainerra

I'm still not getting how the foot tuck is unique to GSDs? It's something all dogs do.


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## atravis

Forget it. 

If "Not saying others don't, but I consider that a "hallmark" of the breed. Never known one who _didn't_" isn't enough, then it isn't worth it to continue.

"It's something all dogs do"

I assume you mean all breeds? I've known hundreds of dogs, and only the shepherds (...and one Rottweiler) tucked in that particular fashion.


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## Melina

atravis said:


> This dog is not a pure GSD. He's a GSD/King Shepherd cross (as per their own description of him).


:blush: Sorry, I missed that...All I saw was the German Shepherd/German Shepherd under the name Duke at the top


Edit to add: I wasn't defending the original dog in question and making him out to be a pure GSD, I was just putting up similar pictures to offer an explanation, one of which is that there is a _small_ possibility that he's a GSD. I have personally never seen a GSD that looks like him, so I wouldn't look at him and say he looks purebred. If the dog I posted is a mix of King Shepherd, wouldn't that say that maybe the first dog has some King Shepherd (Or by way of which Malamute or Great Pyrenees?)


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## atravis

Just wanted to make a further point-

If someone were to present to me dogs like this:

















You'd be hard pressed to convince me they weren't PB GSDs.
However, they are Shilohs.

Point being, a dog can have VERY shepherd-like features, even nearly _identical_ ones, and still be a mix.


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## Raziel

WHAT? Foot tucking?
That is absurd. LOL I know many dogs who do this & are NOT GSDs.
Same goes for the moles.


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## Rerun

atravis said:


> Forget it.
> 
> If "Not saying others don't, but I consider that a "hallmark" of the breed. Never known one who _didn't_" isn't enough, then it isn't worth it to continue.
> 
> "It's something all dogs do"
> 
> I assume you mean all breeds? I've known hundreds of dogs, and only the shepherds (...and one Rottweiler) tucked in that particular fashion.


I've fostered countless different dog breeds...and seen pretty much all of them do it.


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## atravis

Can someone please point out to me where I said foot tucking/moles were *ONLY* found in shepherds? Because I'm seriously not seeing it. I DID mention that I, *personally*, have found those to be a consistent traits within the breed, that I (again, *personally*) have not observed it in other dogs, and because of that *I* consider them to be hallmarks.

You're welcome to disagree.

Rerun- I've got a foster terrier sitting here with me right now, and she's never done it. Guess that makes her screwy, huh?

This isn't even on topic anymore. Regardless of my opinions on foot tucking, telling me I'm wrong has nothing to do with my question, or the discussion on whether or not this dog is a true GSD.


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## Melina

Random question in regards to quirks seen more in some breeds of dogs, but still in others (I didn't want to make a whole thread on this)...

The whole head tilt thing seen in GSD's...First off, this may sound like a silly question, but I honestly don't know, do some just not do it? Or is it characteristic in almost all GSD's? Also, is it seen in DDR/Czech Shepherds? Or more so in American lines?

I'm new to the whole breed, I'm on my first Shepherd, so forgive my ignorance!


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## Dainerra

atravis said:


> Just wanted to make a further point-
> 
> If someone were to present to me dogs like this:
> 
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> .


this dog looks almost exactly like Rayden.


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## Raziel

Melina said:


> Random question in regards to quirks seen more in some breeds of dogs, but still in others (I didn't want to make a whole thread on this)...
> 
> The whole head tilt thing seen in GSD's...First off, this may sound like a silly question, but I honestly don't know, do some just not do it? Or is it characteristic in almost all GSD's? Also, is it seen in DDR/Czech Shepherds? Or more so in American lines?
> 
> I'm new to the whole breed, I'm on my first Shepherd, so forgive my ignorance!


 
Most dogs tilt thier heads when you are speaking to them, making funny sounds etc
Its not just a GSD thing.
Also it has NOTHING to do with the dogs "lines."


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## APBTLove

Melina, the head tilt, all dogs do it, puppies do it more. It's normally to a new word, or a word they LIKE, say "Outside, walk, treat" ect.
Puppies do it so much because there are a lot of new words.

It is my understanding they tilt their head to head and understand you better... ?

I know shepherds do it a lot, though it doesn't really have anything to do with lines. MY boy is pet lines and he does it more than any dog I've met, he's still a pup... My American Showline bitch never head tilted much. My old bulldog did it a lot, if you talked to her she'd **** (tilt) her head to the side and listen. My pom mix never does it.

Edit: okay, we can't say ****, the word meant to be used for a rooster, and to mean a certain movement...


----------



## Melina

Thanks for answering my question, sorry if it seemed silly! I didn't think it had anything to do with lines, but I didn't know how else to ask if you saw it more with a certain dog over another, or if that was even the case, which I doubted.

Neither my GSD nor my Sheltie mix do it. They just look intently at me, as if they're listening. I haven't had Koda (my GSD) very long, so as I said, I've not seen him tilt his head _yet_, but maybe he will, I really don't know. I've seen a lot of GSD's do it, as well as other breeds, but I knew it was somewhat characteristic of GSD's. I didn't know if it was odd for them _not_ to do it though, haha...


----------



## Raziel

Melina said:


> Thanks for answering my question, sorry if it seemed silly! I didn't think it had anything to do with lines, but I didn't know how else to ask if you saw it more with a certain dog over another, or if that was even the case, which I doubted.
> 
> Neither my GSD nor my Sheltie mix do it. They just look intently at me, as if they're listening. I haven't had Koda (my GSD) very long, so as I said, I've not seen him tilt his head _yet_, but maybe he will, I really don't know. I've seen a lot of GSD's do it, as well as other breeds, but I knew it was somewhat characteristic of GSD's. I didn't know if it was odd for them _not_ to do it though, haha...


 
Make some weirder noises at them LMAO!


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## Melina

Haha! The best I've gotten out of him is him perking his ears, but I'll work on my weird noise making


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## arycrest

Try whistling. I can only whistle thru my front teeth, it's not very loud. but good enough to get the Hooligans to tilt their heads.

*WEIRD ERROR MESSAGE* - I got an error message on my first attempt to REPLY that my answer was too short - since when are the new owners monitoring the minimum length of messages?????


----------



## MaggieRoseLee

meowing like a kitty gets the headtilt for my dogs!


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## Jax08

Head tilting is definitely not breed specific.  Our boxers can almost turn them upside down. :rofl:


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## acurajane

Stunning!!!


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## Jessiewessie99

In regards to the foot tucking thing:My GSD, Molly does it all the time, and my Shetland Sheepdog Mix, Simba, did as well.I think its s dog thing, and they feel comfortable, and many breeds do it.Its just something they do.lol


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## Jessiewessie99

I think I have solved this threads original topics issue!lol

Here is what the dog in the pic looks like:

http://www.theinuitdogassociation.co.uk/Images/inuits.jpg

He looks like that breed.They look VERY similar.Apparently the dog in the flickr pics is a result of backyard breeding, and is oversized.But most of us know how BYBs lie to get you to buy their pups.Apparently the dog is pure-bred, he probably is, but more than likely he is the dog i pictured above or has husky, malamute, or wolf breeding in him back in his pedigree.

But thats just my thought.lol


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## Jessiewessie99

Plus i googled "Silver Sable German Shepherds", and NONE look like this.He may be a new breed.lol


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## SouthernThistle

Granted, I know nothing about this person, but I did find a "silver sable" German Shepherd that looks very wolf-like but is 100% GSD.

Florida German Shepherds - Home

"Bandit"


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## LaRen616

Very pretty dogs


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## Melina

Sorry to bring this silly thread up again, but I was just looking at reverse masks again after checking out another thread and look what I found...

The Littlest Hobo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Check out this video:







Wiki says he's a Tamaskan or something of the sort


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## Melina

Hmm, found this little discussion, too...

Is this possible? - German shepherd dog

Some people say the dog, London, was purebred GSD? Who knows..

Found this, too:

Roseburg's Charles Eisenmann | The News-Review - NRtoday.com


----------



## AnnaRiley

He is truly a great looking dog!!


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## Miikkas mom

WOW – that is one beautiful, gorgeous, stunning, really cool, dog!!


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## Melina

This too.. 

What is a Shiloh Shepherd (1990)

Skimmed over it and not sure what the Shiloh relevance is. I don't think they're implying that London was comprised of Shiloh blood, but check out the intelligence of Chuck Eisenmann's dogs! I would love for my dogs to do that stuff, haha


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## Melina

I just realized that a lot of you probably know about The Littlest Hobo, my apologies...I was just coming into existence in 1987... aranoid:


----------



## shilorio

some of the other photos on the link make him look very much like a shepherd to me. but thats just my opinoin. he is amazing!


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## Whitedog404

Looks similar to the Czech Wolfdog to me. Apologies if someone already mentioned this. Lovely creature.


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## GennieF

Interesting topic, going to add a pic of my boy who does now have the undereye markings, but is maskless. Don't mind the mess in the background, it was after a wind storm -



















I also have a dog that is similar in pattern to the dog posted on the first page, complete with undereye markings, however she DOES have a mask so you cannot see it as well. 










Unfortunately, she does not carry for maskless so when she was bred with Luke no maskless puppies were produced but I'm hoping to produce that coloration (especially in a logn coat) in the future as, personally, I love it. Some of the Rin Tin Tins (think 2 and 4) were also maskless, though they did not have the facial/cheek markings.

The newest Rin Tin Tin is a silver sable with undereye markings, but he also has a mask.



And as someone said earlier, the Littlest Hobo dogs as well


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## GennieF

I have not yet produced a pup without a mask, but believe this pup may actually turn out to have a faded mask. 










Dad is the maskless sable pictured above, mom is a solid black. With a solid black dog, you cannot tell if a dog does not have a mask or if it is faded, so that could be why a solid black (in the case of the original dog, as well, bred with a white masking sable) produced as such.


----------



## Amoux

I've been looking around for these white reverse mask german shepherds, they seem so interesting and beautiful. The littlest hobo really adds to my curiosity as it was a popular show here and the dogs were always called german shepherds yet colored differently, most especially in having white legs. I've read in a couple places how the breeding lines were kept a secret and they had the white masked appearance so they would turn out better on black and white television.

I'm wondering if there really is a rare reverse mask gene that shows up from time to time, if perhaps it's a very rare mutation such as what happened with the panda shepherd. It seems to mainly be present in sable dogs so far. I have read the thread Is this possible? - German shepherd dog where someone claims to know for a fact that the Littlest Hobo dogs were pure bred, but since the bloodlines may forever remain a secret it's pretty hard for everyone else to truly know. The fact that crossbreeds like northern inuit dogs can get that particular color combination makes me think some other breed was mixed in, maybe with Chuck's original dog London. It makes me wonder about the few other white masked dogs that have been shared.

With the shiloh shepherds I think what they meant is that they carry the bloodline from one of Chuck Eisenmann's dogs, rather than his dogs being a shiloh. 


With Florida German Shepherds - Home there's a lovely comparison of three of their dogs featuring their reverse mask silver sable:
http://floridagermanshepherdsmypage...ges/Frosty_Outlaw_Bandit_09.220134251_std.jpg

Another silver sable from http://www.aachenauto.com/wolf-a-d.htm:
http://www.aachenauto.com/WoofNoLabel.jpg
http://www.aachenauto.com/100_1271_0002.JPG

With this breed standard page (Breed Types & Related Families) there is an example of a maskless german shepherd with bright points:
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/maskless.JPG

Rin Tin Tin called reverse mask by some people, although I think it's maskless with bright points:
http://www.pioneergermanshepherds.com/rintintin.gif
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_R_Sqi0a8BRc/SbTkgjHcDAI/AAAAAAAAA5Q/Ht2LWbK2IQM/s400/Rin-Tin-Tin.jpg

These are the reverse mask german shepherds I'm used to, only two tones!:
http://www.power-premium.com/Gretchen/Gretchen_Truck.jpg

Here's one of the lovely northern inuit dogs linked previously:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3229/3024421516_dcbab54d75.jpg

A different one:
http://www.howahkan-northern-inuits.co.uk/photos/Nushka/Mahlek Olakhota Inukashuk (Nukkie).jpg

A saarloos wolfdog hybrid from The cry-wolf, Wolf and Wolfdog Magazine:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/6510/savannahj.jpg

Now here's the original Littlest Hobo, London, in 1955:
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/1cab973759f07a2d_large

Another shot:
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/1894/chuckeisenmannanddog.jpg

A photo of Chuck and one of his dogs taken in the 90s... he's pretty big!:
http://www.baseballinwartime.com/images/chuck_and_dog_color.jpg

Some other photos:
http://www.atv.ca/images/shows/littliesthobo_lrg.jpg
stop!sit!think.jpg (image)
saturday morning can con on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Just a small color picture showing the various colored markings, I haven't been able to find any larger:
http://www.cedarwoods-k9.com/eisenmann/images/lp.jpg

But there's also this black and white comparison:
http://www.nrtoday.com/apps/pbcsi.d...=NEWS&ArtNo=108180111&Ref=V2&MaxW=550&title=1


I thought it would be helpful and interesting to see the comparisons so that perhaps some ideas could come of whether these are pure blooded german shepherds or not.


----------



## bianca

Amoux = Another silver sable from http://www.aachenauto.com/wolf-a-d.htm:
http://www.aachenauto.com/WoofNoLabel.jpg
http://www.aachenauto.com/100_1271_0002.JPG

WOW that is a STUNNING dog


----------



## BaronRhinesCityThunder

Ok..so i dont mean to but in on someone elses thread...and i didnt read every single post from 12 pages..lol...but i think i have one of these dogs! He is 12 weeks old..both parents registered and he is as well...i started a thread about him because i wasnt sure if he was pure bred...take a look and let me know what ya tihnk....
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/134783-puppy-stumped-color-2.html


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## PupperLove

I think everything about the dog's body looks like a purebred GSD. The only thing throwing it off is the color and coat pattern. If the dog can have such an interesting color why could it not have such a strange pattern as well? But Imagine the dog black or black and tan and it looks 100% PB to me!


----------



## Chicagocanine

I am a little confused, can someone explain why the dog in the OP is NOT considered a reverse mask sable? 

His markings do not appear to be white, but rather very light silver or cream (with editing of the photo possibly to lighten). 
In this photo you can see it's not white:
sako on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


----------



## Jessiewessie99

Chicagocanine said:


> I am a little confused, can someone explain why the dog in the OP is NOT considered a reverse mask sable?
> 
> His markings do not appear to be white, but rather very light silver or cream (with editing of the photo possibly to lighten).
> In this photo you can see it's not white:
> sako on Flickr - Photo Sharing!


There is a female GSD at my shelter with the EXACT same coloring. But she is listed as a GSD Mix because she may have Husky. I posted her adoption ad on the other board and the people thought she was a mix.


----------



## White German Shepherd

Its a sable variant for sure. Ive seen it


----------



## GSDolch

I love how not one has solid proof that the dogs is or isnt a gsd or mix or mix there of, but yet everyone is so sure! rofl.

Personally, I see husky/gsd. A GSDs body can vary from line to line and what not, if its American or German or Dutch.

But yeah, im sure im wrong even though I have just as much proof as those claiming is IS a pure gsd, <snicker>

Either way, its a beautiful dog.


----------



## arycrest

GSDolch said:


> I love how not one has solid proof that the dogs is or isnt a gsd or mix or mix there of, but yet everyone is so sure! rofl.
> ...


I found a thread about the reverse mask on the PedigreeDataBase. I'm not saying this is solid proof, but don't see why the people should lie either. Some information and pictures are from people who bred dogs and had pups with the reverse mask. There's a rather confusing sub-thread about London's heritage (the star of The Littlest Hobo). There's a reference to a dog who one poster feels is the one who's responsible for the reverse mask. And yes, I find some of the information to be questionable.
Is this possible? - German shepherd dog


----------



## Tihannah

*Just Finding this Thread...*

So I am just finding this thread almost a year later, and it is funny, because I have stumbled across a litter that fits this argument. My previous trainer, who also runs a rescue, took in several dogs from a GSD breeder who had to get rid of all her dogs due to an "unexpected family emergency" (don't know the details). After a couple weeks, the trainer/rescuer realized one of the dam's was pregnant. She called the breeder who told her she thought the breeding didn't take. What was bred was a blue and tan male (shouldn't have been bred) and a white female, both registered, but not sure with who. 8 puppies were born. Below are pics of the two different markings that were produced. 4 of each. My trainer swears that these are purebred GSD's and says they were baffled when the pups were born. She has already adopted the sire and will be adopting the pups and Dam out when they are ready to go and she has found good homes. She will not be attempting to register the pups and only asking for a small rehoming fee. Everyone I've showed thinks that a husky must have snuck into this breeding... The pups are 10 days old today... Thoughts??


----------



## onyx'girl

Personally, I don't think they are all purebred(maybe two sires?). The muzzle looks thick and the white going up the leg isn't consistant with white spotting that a GSD carries. I want to see pics of this litter as they mature, hope you'll be able to share photos!


----------



## Tihannah

onyx'girl said:


> Personally, I don't think they are all purebred(maybe two sires?). The muzzle looks thick and the white going up the leg isn't consistant with white spotting that a GSD carries. I want to see pics of this litter as they mature, hope you'll be able to share photos!


She's supposed to be emailing me pics of the Dam and Sire tomorrow. I will share when I get them. She's classifying them as sable/white pups?? The DH very much wants a male, but I on the other hand...


----------



## krystyne73

I have been looking at wolf hybrids and high content wolf dogs. These are usually Alaskan malamute, GSD and wolf mixes.
One dog on a breeders page looks identical to this dog, I mean identical,the HCwolf dog is in almost the same beach scene in the photo haha. 
But many breeds and mixes can resemble each other other.


----------



## DunRingill

Tihannah said:


> Everyone I've showed thinks that a husky must have snuck into this breeding..


Before I got my first German Shepherd, I had Siberian Huskies. That pup in the second picture sure has a lot of features of a baby sibe!


----------



## Chris Wild

While I suppose it is possible that there is some bizarre gene, or likely a set of several genes, floating around in the gene pool that could cause this coloration on a PB GSD, I'm going to remain very skeptical that these dogs are PB GSDs, regardless of what people claim, unless there is DNA proof of parentage and purebred status.

But while a there seem to be a lot of cases of people claiming these dogs are PB GSDs, there is no proof at all. Many times history and bloodlines of the dog are completely unknown, and when it is they all seem to come from less than credible breeders or questionable situations where things like dual sires are quite possible, or from a supposedly credible breeder who maintains super secret bloodlines and won't share pedigree (case of the Hobo dogs).

It just seems to me that if these color genes indeed existed within the breed, they would crop up from time to time in litters from established breeders where it is known that there is absolutely no possible way that a litter had multiple sires, and testing would be done to prove parentage and purebred status. Instead, it's just a lot of speculation and claims, much of which seem to center around it just being cooler to have a super rare unusual color GSD than admit it's a mutt, but no one is stepping forward and willing or able to provide actual proof.


----------



## Tihannah

Chris Wild said:


> While I suppose it is possible that there is some bizarre gene, or likely a set of several genes, floating around in the gene pool that could cause this coloration on a PB GSD, I'm going to remain very skeptical that these dogs are PB GSDs, regardless of what people claim, unless there is DNA proof of parentage and purebred status.
> 
> But while a there seem to be a lot of cases of people claiming these dogs are PB GSDs, there is no proof at all. Many times history and bloodlines of the dog are completely unknown, and when it is they all seem to come from less than credible breeders or questionable situations where things like dual sires are quite possible, or from a supposedly credible breeder who maintains super secret bloodlines and won't share pedigree (case of the Hobo dogs).
> 
> It just seems to me that if these color genes indeed existed within the breed, they would crop up from time to time in litters from established breeders where it is known that there is absolutely no possible way that a litter had multiple sires, and testing would be done to prove parentage and purebred status. Instead, it's just a lot of speculation and claims, much of which seem to center around it just being cooler to have a super rare unusual color GSD than admit it's a mutt, but no one is stepping forward and willing or able to provide actual proof.


I would have to agree with you. Just the little info I got told me that this was probably not a reputable breeder and the over abundance of byb these days is probably whats making this more and more common. While the DH would love to have one of these pups based on the "rare" colorings and the small re-homing fee, I am more concerned with the genetics, temperament, and general health history. And though my trainer is very knowledgeable on temperament and working with gsd's, she admits that she can not give me any info on their health history or lineage. I could give one of these pups a super good home with lots of love and he grow up to be a wonderful lifelong companion, or he could have tons of health and temperament issues that end up costing me a fortune in vet and training bills... such a crap shoot...


----------



## martemchik

I believe that most of those pups/dogs are mutts for the reason posted above that these colorings would come up much more often if it was a secret gene. Plus if people really wanted silver sables they would start breeding sables with a lot of silver in them to get pups that are more silver, but there is just not enough silver to ever become "wolf like" without mixing in a breed that has that kind of coloring. I've seen so many husky/GSD mixes that look so different from each other, this is probably one like that. I've even seen one that looks like the first picture, except without the ears up, probably could've stayed up if taped at a young age though.


----------



## Tihannah

So the DH now wants to order DNA Testing for the pup in question and has contacts on our military base Vet office that can help. But now I'm being told that even a DNA test can prove nothing?? They are used more to verify the sire and dam? That none are accurate and that there are no genetic markers for GSD's or ANY breed of dog and many come back with wacky results?? How then do you determine if you're dog is indeed purebred??


----------



## Chris Wild

The DNA tests for determining breed are iffy.

But if you have confidence that the sire and dam are purebred, then a DNA test on pup and sire to see if the GSD who is assumed to be the sire actually is, or if it was something else (like a sneaky husky) would provide useful info. I suppose it could be done on the dam too, but there is usually no reason to question if the dam is really the dam since that's usually obvious, but a identity of the sire is more iffy. 

There's nothing to prove beyond any doubt that both parents are indeed purebred, but if its reasonable to assume that they are the biggest question is really who's the daddy of the oddly colored pups.


----------



## Tihannah

Chris Wild said:


> The DNA tests for determining breed are iffy.
> 
> But if you have confidence that the sire and dam are purebred, then a DNA test on pup and sire to see if the GSD who is assumed to be the sire actually is, or if it was something else (like a sneaky husky) would provide useful info. I suppose it could be done on the dam too, but there is usually no reason to question if the dam is really the dam since that's usually obvious, but a identity of the sire is more iffy.
> 
> There's nothing to prove beyond any doubt that both parents are indeed purebred, but if its reasonable to assume that they are the biggest question is really who's the daddy of the oddly colored pups.


This makes sense, but we will probably hit a road block with that as the sire has already been adopted out, and I'm not sure if the rescuer would be willing to contact the new owners for DNA because of privacy issues. This is likely to forever be a mystery...


----------



## carmspack

Black is black . White is often extreme fading pigment (washed out) biscuit , cream, isabella , so not even "white" . 
White is a dominant masking gene. 
White is a dominant masking gene. repeated for a reason.

Black and white will never produce sable.
Sable is a dominant gene . One parent must be sable to produce sable.

Dog to dog does not equal WOLF. 


The dog in question is no big mystery. He exhibits fading pigment - not desirable.

Inuit dogs come from similar inuit dogs -- not from black and white mixes.

We had black and white bred by a top French ring competitor in the early 90's and this is what the pups turned out like. Both parents documented registered animals.

At one point Eisenmann approached our training club -- one of the first in Ontario that was doing schutzhund-- looking for breeding material . His way of doing it was to have a lot of litters to select from . He would only be interested in the "hobo" look . He would take those , grow them out , make his stand in - future star selections and the rest would go off to Viet Nam. 

Met with friend Linda Shaw the other day, one of the best illustrators of canine anatomy , selected by many breed clubs to illustrate the breed standards. She is brings a scientific approach to colour . 
Breed Types & Related Families


Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Chris Wild

Actually some of this is not true.



carmspack said:


> Black is black . White is often extreme fading pigment (washed out) biscuit , cream, isabella , so not even "white" .
> White is a dominant masking gene.
> White is a dominant masking gene. repeated for a reason.


White is a *recessive* masking gene. Not dominant.



carmspack said:


> Black and white will never produce sable.
> Sable is a dominant gene . One parent must be sable to produce sable.


Yes, black to white can produce sable. A masking gene, as the name implies, masks the true color of the dog. A white dog can be a sable genetically, but that sable is masked by the presence of 2 copies of the recessive white masking gene which makes the dog itself white. Since that dog carries sable, and genetically would be sable if it didn't also have the white masking which is a completely different set of genes entirely, it can certainly produce sable.




carmspack said:


> Met with friend Linda Shaw the other day, one of the best illustrators of canine anatomy , selected by many breed clubs to illustrate the breed standards. She is brings a scientific approach to colour .
> Breed Types & Related Families


Absolutely an excellent reference, which also points out how the recessive white masking works.


----------



## Tihannah

Just got this pic from my trainer. This is claimed to be the sire to the pups... Could this blue and tan "reversed mask" when bred to a white GSD not produce these reversed white masked pups?? He is said to be an AKC registered GSD...


----------



## Catu

Mrs.K said:


> Wow.... never seen anything like that before.


You will get used, the same pic of the same dog pops up in a new thread a couple of times a year in different boards


----------



## Kola_2010

I dunno... dont care.. HE IS GOREGOUS! LOL


----------



## JKlatsky

Tihannah said:


> Just got this pic from my trainer. This is claimed to be the sire to the pups... Could this blue and tan "reversed mask" when bred to a white GSD not produce these reversed white masked pups?? He is said to be an AKC registered GSD...



He looks like a GSD. I would believe he is a GSD. But he still has a faded mask- you can see the darker spots by his eyes and his nose. Even the dogs that practically lose all their mask start out darker in the face as pups. What bothers me about the pup is how clearly WHITE and distinct the markings on the face are, and how dark the body is. I would more expect the face to be closer in color to the body and they recede over time- more like the first pup picture your posted.

I suppose it could be some kind of mutation like the Pandas...but it just strikes me as odd.


----------



## Emoore

Tihannah said:


> Just got this pic from my trainer. This is claimed to be the sire to the pups... Could this blue and tan "reversed mask" when bred to a white GSD not produce these reversed white masked pups?? He is said to be an AKC registered GSD...


As has been said in this thread before, white is a masking gene, not a diluting gene. White bred to another color will produce white or another non-white color. It won't dilute the color it's bred to. Breeding a black and tan with reverse mask will produce black and tans, whites, or whatever the white gene was masking on the white parent. Not diluted black and tan.


----------



## martemchik

In response to DNA testing I've heard that as long as there is a purebred dog 2 generations back they will pop up on the test. So it's a crapshoot if there are mutts mixed with mutts, but if truly a first or second generation mutt the test can differentiate between them. This doesn't look like that kind of situation so I believe you would be able to figure out the genetic make up of the pups. I guess your only problem would be if there truly is more than one sire, which means every single pup would need to be tested.


----------



## Lin

martemchik said:


> In response to DNA testing I've heard that as long as there is a purebred dog 2 generations back they will pop up on the test.


A purebred amstaff came back as border collie in a DNA test. I'm pretty sure there are no border collies in the am staff's background.


----------



## Konotashi

I was thinking (the original pic) might be a Saarlooswolfhond? Just a guess.


----------



## PaddyD

Husky/Shepherd. My brother had a dog that looked just like that.


----------



## carmspack

When I met with Linda Shaw last week she loaned me a book -- The Shepherd Dog Review Vol 16 1939. I took a moment to go through some of the pictures . There are several pictures similar to the dog being discussed in this thread. Some of the best American kennels at the time, Giralda and Cosalta .
I am sure I can find some in archival material in the year books that I have from the United Kingdom breed club "Alsation League of Great Britain" and I am sure I can find some early founding stock in the von Stephanitz tome.

just for interest Breed Types & Related Families Not Found - Webs.com.

I don't know what the story is with C Eisenmann's "hobos" other than when he came around to the clubs looking for breeding material to perpetuate his colour for training replacements he was adamant that they were GSD. I was at one of his film locations in the Toronto Beaches and he addressed a crowd and said once again , yes they are GSD. In his book Stop Sit and Think or whatever the correct title is (I have it) he states they are GSD. So where and why all of a sudden is this mystery about a "secret gene"? Or creating stories of being , what did one writer offer a Tamaskan , which it can not be because the first Tamaskan was registered in 2002. Eisenmann's first "London" is from the post war period 1946 . When he was in the later part of the series "Littlest Hobo" he has 7 or 8 dogs - 2 were females. When I was at the Beaches shoot he had one dog that gave a paw at the store door, another one that specialized in barking , another one that walked up ladders etc. The filming would pause while the stand in was called for . The dogs appeared poky , inhibited . I am very interested in training so I followed and watched many times. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## Chris Wild

carmspack said:


> I don't know what the story is with C Eisenmann's "hobos" other than when he came around to the clubs looking for breeding material to perpetuate his colour for training replacements he was adamant that they were GSD. I was at one of his film locations in the Toronto Beaches and he addressed a crowd and said once again , yes they are GSD. In his book Stop Sit and Think or whatever the correct title is (I have it) he states they are GSD. So where and why all of a sudden is this mystery about a "secret gene"?


Yes, he SAID they were GSDs. But also refused to ever share bloodline or pedigree information, preferring to keep it secret. People can say a lot of things, and that doesn't make it true. Structurally they do look like GSDs, and I've no doubt they're mostly GSD. But they are clearly a non-GSD color and when one bloodline, which is kept secret by it's propagator, produces a color no one else in the breed ever sees, I think it quite natural for people to speculate about there being something else in the woodpile. If this gene truly existed in the breed's gene pool, common sense says that it would appear in situations that weren't so questionable or using only secret bloodlines.


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## Kaiser2012

*Setting the Record Straight*

I'm not sure if anyone cares since this thread is quite old...however..

I am the photographer who took these images of Sako. I have not read every page in this discussion, however he is 100% German Shepherd. 

I've seen both parents (one is american lines-white, the other is german- black). The parents have papers (although of course that does not mean they should be bred. All puppies from the litters were sable and ranged from silver to cream/tan. Only when the "breeders" had to replace one of the parents did the female produce any pure white pups. Note: these people were BYB. They LOVED the breed, and had been breeding their dogs for years. However, the dogs were oversized, not to standard, and the pups were not given the attention/socialization/training that most reputable breeders would give their litters. None of the dogs produced exhibited a black mask. The masking around the eyes was predominant in some pups and not quite as striking in others. It just depended. 

At any rate, Sako had a very high (ball) drive, was loyal, protective, and a big ol' goofball. He was my dog's absolute best bud until he passed away.


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## kai0401

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...y-kaiser-picture20954-img-20121212-095710.jpg


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## kai0401




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## kai0401

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...y-kaiser-picture20954-img-20121212-095710.jpg


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## 4TheDawgies

Kaiser2012 said:


> I'm not sure if anyone cares since this thread is quite old...however..
> 
> I am the photographer who took these images of Sako. I have not read every page in this discussion, however he is 100% German Shepherd.
> 
> I've seen both parents (one is american lines-white, the other is german- black). The parents have papers (although of course that does not mean they should be bred. All puppies from the litters were sable and ranged from silver to cream/tan. Only when the "breeders" had to replace one of the parents did the female produce any pure white pups. Note: these people were BYB. They LOVED the breed, and had been breeding their dogs for years. However, the dogs were oversized, not to standard, and the pups were not given the attention/socialization/training that most reputable breeders would give their litters. None of the dogs produced exhibited a black mask. The masking around the eyes was predominant in some pups and not quite as striking in others. It just depended.
> 
> At any rate, Sako had a very high (ball) drive, was loyal, protective, and a big ol' goofball. He was my dog's absolute best bud until he passed away.


Very interesting! 
Keep in mind the white gene in German shepherds is a masking gene. This means a white dog is actually a patterned dog. These white dogs (especially since the white breeders are breeding exclusively for white) can very literally look like anything under there as far as markings but still remain German shepherd in body type. 
I don't think this dogs markings, specifically the face mask, excludes this dog from being a GSD. 
I'm glad you came on and shared that with us. Even if no one responded until a year later almost lol


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## Kaiser2012

4TheDawgies said:


> Very interesting!
> Keep in mind the white gene in German shepherds is a masking gene. This means a white dog is actually a patterned dog. These white dogs (especially since the white breeders are breeding exclusively for white) can very literally look like anything under there as far as markings but still remain German shepherd in body type.
> I don't think this dogs markings, specifically the face mask, excludes this dog from being a GSD.
> I'm glad you came on and shared that with us. Even if no one responded until a year later almost lol


lol quite welcome! I actually had someone bring the pictures to my attention since I wasn't aware they had been copied from my flickr page. I think this post was my first post on this forum too, lol.

More of Sako:


sako by jsnail17, on Flickr


Untitled by jsnail17, on Flickr


sako at the beach by jsnail17, on Flickr

I think people get so caught up in coloration/markings/etc that you are right...the fact of the matter is, the structure (while oversized) is still that of a GSD. Sure, Sako was stunning to look at, but he was bred simply for what was a unique coat. He was very dog aggressive too (except with my Dakota, who was his "girlfriend") and had a VERY high ball drive. 

The owners actually took another puppy from these breeders after Sako passed away at 3 (or 4) years of age. The second puppy came after one of the parents was "replaced". He is all white, and again very oversized. 

In this picture, Dakota is 75lbs. Polar wasn't even 5 months old in this picture and you can see how big he is.


crazy eyed leap! by jsnail17, on Flickr


polar by jsnail17, on Flickr


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## Anubis_Star

I don't believe he's a GSD simply by his muzzle coloration. Lacking a black muzzle is a serious fault, and a DQ. VERY FEW GSDs, outside of whites and a few dilutes like blues and livers, lack a black muzzle. And this dog doesn't even have any hint of darker pigmentation around his nose.

Like someone else said, I would be more prone to believe the white "GSD" used in the breeding was actually a husky.

Beautiful dog, though.


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## Winnal

Look like my dog, lol



Anubis_Star said:


> I don't believe he's a GSD simply by his muzzle coloration. Lacking a black muzzle is a serious fault, and a DQ. VERY FEW GSDs, outside of whites and a few dilutes like blues and livers, lack a black muzzle. And this dog doesn't even have any hint of darker pigmentation around his nose.
> 
> Like someone else said, I would be more prone to believe the white "GSD" used in the breeding was actually a husky.
> 
> Beautiful dog, though.


I've noticed this. But is it still possible?


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## wolfy dog

deleted


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## wolfy dog

Old thread and old dog I am sure.


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## ksotto333

wolfy dog said:


> deleted


Oh go ahead and entertain me. I overdid it today working in the yard( major surgery 5 weeks ago). So I'm just sitting her resting...:wink2:


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