# A second bite and I'm terrified!



## Hatterasser

I'm terrified and sick to my stomach that I may lose Thor.

He's bitten the same guy he bit a few months back. AC was automatically called (I understand the need for this so am not complaining about it) and they will be back Thursday to discuss what must be done....either another 10 days of automatic quarantine or the worse possible scenario, they will take him. As this particular attack (and yes, let's call it what it was...an ATTACK) was unprovoked, I fear it will be the latter. I keep bursting into tears as I can't bear the thought.

I had both Freya and Thor out for their walks, both on leashes. I wanted to work on them being off-leash and coming when I called. I let Freya off first and let her romp, calling her two or three times to return to me. She was figuring it out nicely, so I leashed her again and released Thor. Same thing...he romped around but returned to me the first time I called him. I let him go again and he ran off down the road....then stopped! His ears pricked up, his hackles rose. I could see this even though I was a quarter of a block away. I called him, my eyes searching for what caught his interest. I know there is a pack of feral cats that live in the area and thought he might have seen one of them, though his hackles don't lift for them usually, just his interest is piqued. But Thor didn't come, nor did he move....he just stood there.

Then I saw George coming down his steps. I watched as Thor tensed and called to George to 'get back in the house'. Unfortunately, I was too far away for him to hear me. I called Thor again, but he just stood. You have to know I was racing towards him by this time, dragging Freya along, as I knew...I KNEW...what was going to happen. Thor, ever since the first time he bit George for what he perceived as a threat to me, has hated George. Even walking past his house, Thor glances at it, his ears up, his hackles often up as well, even though no one is around.

Sure enough, George reached his driveway and Thor took off, circling George and lunging at his legs. George started squealing and screaming and hitting out at Thor with a bag he had in his hand. I told him "Just stand still, George, don't move" but let's face it, even if he had heard me, it would have been hard to stand still when a 100 lb. shepherd is nipping at your legs. I called Thor again, told him "Leave it! Come!" and he started back towards me. George turned towards the house but half way back to me, Thor turned and ran back again. Fortunately, George had gotten to a safe place under the house and with a few barks, Thor finally listened to me and came back. I leashed him at once and wondered ' what do I say to him? how do I correct his behavior? will he even understand what I'm telling him if I say bad dog or no biting or anything?'

Besides, I was shaking so badly I could only be grateful that I had him leashed by that time. I finally reached George's house and as he was climbing the stairs to the door, I called, "Are you okay?" When he said, "Thor bit me again and ripped my pants" I blanched. I am surprised my legs held me up. He pulled up his pant leg and blood was dripping down. Deja vu!

I took both dogs home, got in my truck, drove back to George's and piled him in to take him to the doctor's....again. Fortunately, this time it was just some scratches and one small puncture so they cleaned him up, put on some antibiotic salve, gave him a prescription for antibiotics and I took him to the pharmacy and then home. Naturally, they called AC and the vet to check up on Thor's shots. I will pay for the prescriptions and whatever his medicare doesn't cover, plus a new pair of pants and socks, but that does not solve the problem. 

The doctor tried to make me feel better with a little joking comment; i.e. "You have to keep these two out of the same playground." I know he was trying to make me feel better but I don't.

Thor doesn't bite anyone else. I've had strange men all over the house during the replacement of my heating system, Kat (my daughter) has friends in and out of the house all the time, we meet other neighbors all the time when out for walks, but Thor only goes for George. I don't know what to do and I'm sooooooo frightened that AC will see him as a vicious dog and want to put him down. Just typing those words make tears gush. He's NOT vicious! Dang, Seamus attacked him and he REACTED, he was not PROACTIVE in that event. 

What's wrong with Thor? What do I tell the AC when they get here? I don't want them to take him but I fear they will. Even the problems with Seamus dim compared to this dilemma.


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## GSDBESTK9

Ok, I'm sorry, but this dog has bit before and yet you let him off leash?? I just don't get it, I'm sorry.


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## Chris Wild

I'm sorry you're going through this but I do have to ask... why did you have Thor off leash anywhere near George's house, or in any area where this could happen? I understand you were working on off lead recalls, but this isn't the way to do that. It should only be done in a secure area, not out in public. And a dog who isn't reliable or who has any sort of aggression issue or previous bite history, even if just toward one person, should never be off lead.

Has Thor been evaluated by a behaviorist or trainer? Has he been through formal training? If not, I would make sure to do that ASAP. 

His aggression toward George may be just an isolated incident. Dog's are capable of hating specific people, but being fine with others, just as we humans are. If you can prove to AC that is the case, that he is not a dangerous dog in general, it will help you. To do that, he would need to be thoroughly evaluated by an objective, outside party. I'd start calling now to make appointments for evaluation and training. That way you can show to AC that you are already taking steps to deal with this. 

Purchasing a muzzle, and agreeing to have Thor always wear it in public may also help appease AC. 

Also, start researching the dog bite laws in your area so you know exactly what they are. Don't trust the local AC guys to educate you in that. Find it out yourself.


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## jarn

i have to agree. 

i have friends who have both dogs who have bitten. (i've posted about them before)

their young dog got out the yard and bit a guy. she was kept on a long lead in the yard for a long time (unsupervised, of course) and then they decided not to bother. and she got out and bit a woman. 

if you know thor bites, that he has that history, you really need to be responsible to ensure that doesn't happen again, especially if the bite occured the same way twice - i'm sorry, i know you're upset, and i would be to, but that is preventable. 

thor shouldn't have the freedom. i have a dog that bites, though i've only ever been scratched, not punctured by her, and i worked really hard on leadership, curtailed her freedoms, and worked hard on bonding her to me. she spent months tethered to me inside, and she still, b/c of aggression issues, is tethered to me (traffic lead) outside. 

i don't know what to suggest you tell AC. can you say 'i made a mistake, these are the steps i am going to be taking to ensure it doesn't happen again?'


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## Achielles UD

There are other ways to work on "off lead" recalls other than just taking a leash off of a dog that has bitten someone before. Even if it is just that one person, that person lives where you do which means letting him off lead is a bad idea... you knew that right?? 

I don't know what AC will do. I hope they don't take Thor. It was poor judgement on your half though. I hope things turn out ok. I hope George doesn't hold it against you. I hope Thor doesn't have to pay for a lapse in your judgement... Good luck and I am sorry this happened.







I know it has been really rough lately with Seamus.


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## blackbirdzach

Wowzers. Can't believe you let him off lead in a public area like that. I use a 30 foot lead when I'm evaluating new dogs or working recalls. You can buy them up to 50 feet. Buy one of these for your recall work from now on.


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## Brightelf

I use a (mostly) enclosed tennis court, and stand blocking the exit. This gives good space for offlead recalls, oracticing the retrieve game, and letting him burn off steam as I live in a big city and have no yard.

I am wishing you the best. You have been through so much stress lately with Seamus. Yes, this was very bad judgement. I wish it hadn't happened, for your sake as well as Thor's and George's. I hope everything turns out OK for Thor, and that you are able to find a nice fenced area to practice recalls, or use a good longline.


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## GSDBESTK9

As a word of caution, be careful with tennis courts as some of them don't close properly. My aunt had her dogs (non GSD) running in there when her Aussie jumped on the door and opened it. He got out and bit a kid on the leg that was running by.


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## AbbyK9

I am so sorry this happened and that you may loose Thor.

At the same time, I can only echo what everyone else here has already said: what were you thinking just letting them off leash in public to work on off-leash recall. That is not the way to do it.

When you start working on the off-leash recall, do it on a long line. That way, you can reinforce the command if it is not followed - and you can reel your dogs in if they're not listening at all. Once you get a good recall that way, work in an area where you can let them off-leash safely - an enclosed sports field, a fenced yard, something along those lines. When you have a good recall there, work on it off leash and without a fence in an area that has no people and other pets - like on a hiking trail in the woods.


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## big_dog7777

Diane,

If you get to keep Thor please do not ever let him off leash outside of an enclosed area again. This scenario was a recipe for disaster. Heck, he could have gotten hit by a car! In this case he did something else that may get him killed. This s sad, and not his fault.


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## Hatterasser

Every one of you are right. What I did was *stupid stupid stupid*. The fact that I live on a back road where there are hardly any people living at this time of year (virtually all the houses are summer rental cottages for the tourists and there aren't any around now) makes little difference when I do know that George lives there.

As for training, I have less idea how to do that than most. I see the wisdom of a long line (50 feet or so) NOW...but now is a bit late. I will discuss all this with the AC when they come and promise faithfully never to leave Thor off his leash again unless we're way the heck out on the beach and not a soul is in sight but a lone seagull. 

And please, I beg all of you not to repeat again and again that I should talk to a good trainer or a behaviorist. I don't know how many ways I can explain that the nearest trainer/behaviorist is well over 4 or 5 hours away from me, that I live on a pension, that it takes more than I can afford to buy gas just to drive to the vet's (70 miles away), which I've done 3 times this past month. I'm alone here, folks. You all are my best line of information. I have no one else to ask. 

I know all my dogs could use more training...I'm not dense. But whatever they know depends on much I know....and I'm just one old lady who happens to love her dogs to death. I try to train them with NILIF and lots of hugs. Probably entirely wrong but that's all I have.

But I do appreciate your all telling me what I did wrong this time. It was totally dumb on my part to release Thor within a mile of George's house. Thank God George still likes me and has offered to plead Thor's case to the AC himself.


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## Brightelf

Diane, maybe George can do that, and speak for Thor and for you. Your own words admitting poor judgement may be enough, too.. that is what I hope. Being isolated is not easy. Do you have a dinky little sleepy mini-library there? It takes an annoyingly long time, like 2 - 3 weeks sometimes, but the lil library can interlibrary loan order, for FREE, training DVDs or Videos from the big jumbo library branches in NC. They get shipped via US Postal, lots of times! But, it may make you feel better, give you more to learn and enjoy, and teach you neat dogtraining stuff too. You are doing what you can.. I applaud your efforts. I hope this goes well for Thor.


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## Maedchen

Wow, you're very lucky that George is such a nice guy!

I really hope all works out for you & Thor and wish you all the best!


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## JakodaCD OA

I echo what everyone else has already said..To add, if I were you, I would speak to George, and PROMISE him you will never put him in this type of situation again, hopefully he will be as understanding as he seems to be, and this will help with AC as well.

I would also be very unwilling to let Thor off leash off property ANYWHERE until you are a 100% sure of his reaction no matter where it is. 

I also hope everything works out ok
Diane


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## DianaM

> Quote:I will discuss all this with the AC when they come and promise faithfully never to leave Thor off his leash again unless we're way the heck out on the beach and not a soul is in sight but a lone seagull.


NO. No more "unless" or "if." Your dog can no longer be off lead. When you least expect it, someone will come around the corner and that will be that. As it is, you stand a very good chance of your dog being taken and euthanized. Your neighbor is an absolute saint- tell him I want him as my neighbor... as ALL my neighbors! If things work out such that you still have the dog, invest in a long line, invest in an e-collar, learn how to use the latter (paging Lou Castle, Lou Castle to the front), and use BOTH on your dog. You can actively train your dog for off leash work while he is on the long line. This will make no difference on the dog. Also, when you do long line work, get a muzzle. There is nothing wrong with this and it will be an excellent safety measure for you, your dog, and the public. Should anything happen, the dog won't be able to do anything. Get a wire basket or leather muzzle for good airflow.



> Quote:I try to train them with NILIF and lots of hugs. Probably entirely wrong but that's all I have.


This is what you need: a short leash, a long line, a muzzle, an e-collar if you can afford it, a clicker for positive training, a couple good books (check out the leadership info link in my signature), and read everything you can regarding training and behavior on this board. Finally, repeat after me: "If the dogs are outside, they are ON LEASH. The dogs are NEVER OFF LEASH when outside, no matter what."


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> NO. No more "unless" or "if." Your dog can no longer be off lead. When you least expect it, someone will come around the corner and that will be that. As it is, you stand a very good chance of your dog being taken and euthanized.


I agree. IF Thor gets through this, all it will take is one tiny lapse in your judgment, moment when you're distracted, or have become complacent and that will be it. Use a long line or an ecollar. There are some cheaper ecollar models available, and a long line doesn't cost much at all. Heck, you can make one with some clothesline and a bolt snap from the hardware store. But I would never, ever have this dog off lead again.


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## Judykaye

Diane, I am so sorry to see that Thor is in trouble...I know this is terribly upsetting for you...

In Ohio we have a three bite law...I will be praying that that is what your state has also...

I will be watching for a post after you have dealt with AC...Hugs to you tonight, Judy


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## Cooper&me

I cannot believe this happened TWICE!!

This is why dog laws are passed. If dog owners were more respondsible then goverment would not have to be involved.

I know I am being harsh but your dog already bit. What were you doing training without control??????

I know after the fact is easy to see what went wrong and I truely am sorry for everything.

Can you imagine poor George. Attacked twice. Not safe in his own home?


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## RobinB

I know that you said you don’t want to hear it, but you and Thor need the help of a real professional. I know it won’t be easy or cheap but the alternative isn’t pretty. In my mind you really don't have another choice except re-homing him and I know that would be heart breaking. 

If Animal Control agrees to give Thor another chance it will most likely be his last one. I know that you love him and would hate to see his life end prematurely because you couldn’t figure out how to handle him. 

People on a message board give great general advice but if you dog starts attacking even just one neighbor you need professional, hands on help.


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## Spitfire22

> Originally Posted By: mjb03I cannot believe this happened TWICE!!
> 
> This is why dog laws are passed. If dog owners were more respondsible then goverment would not have to be involved.
> 
> I know I am being harsh but your dog already bit. What were you doing training without control??????
> 
> I know after the fact is easy to see what went wrong and I truely am sorry for everything.
> 
> Can you imagine poor George. Attacked twice. Not safe in his own home?


Hey, climb down off your cross! someone needs the wood. Dianne has repeated over and over she used poor judgment . You are not adding anything new here that hasn't already been mentioned.

Do you have anything constructive to say


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## middleofnowhere

OK I'm going to say it. I advise you to rehome the dog to someone who will see that he is managed responsibly. You cannot, by your admission, afford to manage him responsibly (training with a professional). Your judgement is not good in regards to managing this dog so he needs to go to someone who will manage him. 

I cannot begin to tell you how offended I would be at a nieghbor yelling at me to get back in my house because they had turned a dog that had recently bitten me loose near my house. Do you think the outcome of actions like this is going to be cheaper than driving to a trainer?


As for Thor, he had Seamus move in and challenge him - he sees George as someone who needs to be bitten - and he is not well managed. That's what's "wrong" with Thor. I'd suggest you be in contact with Best Friends in Utah as a back up and then look for new homes for both Thor and Seamus if you do not have to have Thor euthanized.

This may sound harsh and it may be harsh but I've read the posts about Seamus and now I see this. These dogs are inappropriate for this environment.


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## DianaM

In a world where dogs are euthanized for NO BITES (pit bulls, breed bans, etc), that is constructive advice, IMO.

If she had any other neighbor, she would now be served a lawsuit that will kill her dog and take her house. 

Can you send a plea for help in the "Finding a Trainer" forum? Maybe someone in your area is or knows of a trainer who may be willing to help for a reduced fee. It doesn't hurt. If it has happened twice with the same dog and the same neighbor, I think professional help or rehoming the dog are really the only two answers. What if she loses grip on the leash and the dog is DETERMINED to go after the guy? What if the dog does serious injury? This could turn really ugly.

The truth hurts.







I really do wish you the best.


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## workingdawgs

Diane,

Perhaps you could phone one or more of the trainers that are physically out of your means and explain the situation to them. Someone may decide to help out by either giving you training advice or helping you find a more suitable home Thor.

I am sorry you are going through this and although it is a very hard knocks lesson to learn, as long as you learn from it all is not lost.

Michelle


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## Lynnemd

Diane,

I think you have probably been beaten enough here so I am not going to make the obvious comment.
If you really can't get to or afford a good trainer, you need to make sure that you don't leave home without him muzzled and leashed - period. There can't be any more off leash sessions - in my opinion, a lot of people are just lucky when their dogs are off leash. They are dogs...let them see a cat across the street and even a well trained pup can be off and running with no thought to cars, etc.
You are blessed to have George for a neighbor. Look what "Rolo" and his owner Laura are going through in Colorado right now - she has paid a fortune in legal costs and has just been found guilty of her dog being lose and dangerous as he bit a neighbor. Sentencing is tomorrow - who knows what will happen. For the sake of all concerned, get a muzzle.


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## wrenny

She knows what she did wrong. Stop making it any worse. You are probably making her cry everytime she reads this by belittling her even after she admitted she made a very horrible mistake.

Start helping her and stop insulting her.


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## LandosMom

i've got to agree with wrenny here. what's done is done and she seems to have realized her mistake. maybe you can come up with a specific plan that you share with George and the AC officer about how specifically you will make sure that this doesn't happen again. then stick to it. 

hang in there. what's done is done and all you can do now is learn from it and take steps to protect your dog. none of us are perfect.

Paige


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## G-burg

> Quote:And please, I beg all of you not to repeat again and again that I should talk to a good trainer or a behaviorist. I don't know how many ways I can explain that the nearest trainer/behaviorist is well over 4 or 5 hours away from me, that I live on a pension, that it takes more than I can afford to buy gas just to drive to the vet's (70 miles away), which I've done 3 times this past month. I'm alone here, folks. You all are my best line of information. I have no one else to ask.


Just out of curiosity...

What happens to the dog if AC demands you to seek professional help through a qualified trainer/training facility? That is the only way you can keep him then?

We've had a couple of cases in my state where AC made the owners pay for aggression training.. This last case that came in was a 10 yr old gsd that got loose one time and bite someone.. So the owner opted to seek help instead of euthanizing his dog..


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## FourIsCompany

What a horrible experience! I'm so sorry for what you must be going through! And I hope it all turns out ok. 

As the others have said, you must NOT let him off leash. Someone else might not be as kind as George. Or worse yet, Thor will bite and do some real damage. Imagine someone that looks like George carrying a baby that Thor determines is in trouble. You really mustn't take another chance. I hope you realize that.


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## MaggieRoseLee

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Never off leash til you work this out...

And have you followed any of the many many many many many topics about training with an e-collar? Not as 'punishment' but more for TRAINING. It doesn't matter that he's only bitten George (twice). What is REALLY the issue is you do NOT have a reliable 'come' And without that you will always have concerns if your dog is off leash. 

Lou Castle is on this site and has great info on his website....

http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm


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## LouCastle

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Thanks for the kind words MaggieRoseLee. The link that you supplied will help the OP train her dog to a reliable recall using an Ecollar. 

But even with that she needs to use care in letting the dog off leash. and even while on leash. If the dog goes around a blind corner (as around an outside corner of a house) the neighbor (or someone else) may be there and a bite will occur even though the dog has a reliable recall or is on leash.


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## Mary Jane

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane,

I'm not in a position to give advice about dog training. I just wanted to say that after the discord introduced into your home by trying to save Seamus, it's really terrible that you now are confronted with this unfortunate incident with Thor.

I certainly hope that AC is as understanding as your neighbor. If so, I'm sure you will identify a suitable modus vivendi with your dogs.

Mary Jane


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## agilegsds

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane, in my opinion the most important thing you need to do now is to find out what the law is in your jurisdiction. And you need to see/read it yourself, not have some municipal person give you their interpretation of it. The law should have some sort of hearing process in it, legally it's called due process, so that AC cannot just take your dog and destroy him without a fair and impartial hearing. An animal control officer may try to get you to sign him over, but you may not be obligated to do so. You need to find out your rights before AC comes and then proceed from there.


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## chruby

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

IMHO, even when strange men come over to your house, I would not have him out even then. Sounds like you will be lucky if you get to keep him but to take ANY kind of a chance in the future would be a mistake. Yes, you know he does not like George but what if he decides he does not like some other guy that comes to your house?


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## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

If you are all through pummelling me (some of you extremely 'self-righteously'...like you've NEVER made an error in judgement either with dogs or people), I'd like to thank Chris Wild, jarn, Achielles CDX, blackbirdzach, Brightelf, Historian, ZeusGSD, Maedchen, JakodaCD OA , DianaM, Judykaye, JAPD, workingdawgs, Lynnemd, and all the others who have offered good advice with a touch of empathy/sympathy, especially MaggieRoseLee's link to Lou Castle's site. I spent the morning reading information re: e-collars (sorry, Lou, didn't know about you until Maggie's link but I found it all very helpful....wouldn't you like to take a vacation to the beaches of the east coast..and maybe 'play' with a few dogs while you're here? *grins*).

Assuming our AC is understanding and helpful, I will definitely purchase a muzzle and as soon as I can afford it, an e-collar as well. There is no doubt in my mind that Thor is NOT aggressive, nor is he a 'vicious dog'. He is bonded to me and I would not be surprised if he sees poor George as an ongoing threat to me, given the details surrounding the prior event. Additionally, Thor has been under a great bit of stress (and pain as well, let's not forget) since Seamus arrived and has been a bit edgier than normal...understandably so. 

I have read the state laws about dogs. I hope it will not go to the point of hearings, etc. (George will not file any complaint) but the AC's know Thor and Freya (who came from their shelter) and I think they will be disturbed but willing to work with me if I am willing (and I am) to take some protective steps.

I appreciate the advice about training on a long line. I've never had to train any other dog that way but I can see the wisdom of doing so with Thor. So a muzzle, an e-collar and a long line it will be (I do have Flexi leashes 16 feet long which should do, according to LouCastle). If anyone wants to know the outcome of my meeting with the AC, just pm me and I'll bring you up to date.

And the time has come to work on rehoming Seamus (and NO, middleofnowhere, I don't mean Thor). Seamus, bless his heart, has been stress for all of us, including himself. He's not happy (although he's safer, better fed, and more loved than he has been in the past), Thor and Freya are not happy and I'm not happy. It is not a well balanced pack and I can't see it ever being so in my lifetime.

Thanks again for the good advice from some of you...I am still learning how to deal with my little pack of dogs. I am trying, truly I am. I know I make mistakes but I'm willing to learn...and so are my fur babies.


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## jarn

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

i'll admit, i've made mistakes w/teagan, where i took a chance i shouldn't have, luckily nothing happened.

....i was lucky enough teagan came muzzle trained. i found a couple of articles on how to get a dog used to the muzzle:

http://www.sniksnak.com/doghealth/muzzle.html
http://www.petsbehave.com/MUZZLE.pdf


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## agilegsds

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I just wanted to mention that your county/municipality may have different laws than the state. In many, if not most states, local governments have the power to enact laws which are more stringent than the state law. My county, for example, has stricter laws than the IL statutes regarding dogs. Here, if a dog is off-leash in public and someone 'feels' that they are threatened by the dog, the dog can be declared dangerous.

Good luck, I really hope everything goes well for you.


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## Brightelf

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

This is what I hope to hear from Diane:
AC control is giving Thor another chance.
George is mentally and physically doing OK.
She found a comfy-soft cotton clothesline and a shiny brass clip (cheap) to make a nice longline.
She also found a large fenced area there.
Seamus is doing wonderfully, and someone has the ideal home to welcome him into, after all Diane's hard work.
Diane has nabbed a couple training videos from her library's inter-library loan system.
Diane is taking a long, hot, scented soak in a wonderful lavender bubblebath, ordering a pizza, and is feeling much, much better with the ideas from the videos & a safe-yet-fun plan for Thor and Frey's continued training.


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## RobinB

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: HatterasserThere is no doubt in my mind that Thor is NOT aggressive, nor is he a 'vicious dog'.


I am sure that George would think otherwise. You even described this latest incident as an unprovoked attack.

I am sorry that you didn’t like my advice. I feel very sorry you and the situation you are in. I can tell that you love your dogs very much.

You admit yourself that you do not know how to train your dogs. We can sit here all day and pretend like you are going to magically figure it out by talking to people on a message board or reading books but you aren’t. Thor’s situation is too serious to even try. If Thor escapes his meeting with Animal Control this time it will most likely be his last chance. Are you willing to leave his last chance to someone who is unskilled in dealing with problem dogs? 

I am sorry if you feel like you deserve to be coddled, but that isn’t going to help you in the long run and it sure isn’t going to help Thor. For your sanity, Thor’s life, and the safety of everyone in your neighborhood get some professional help before it is too late. If you are unwilling or unable to get professional help then you I think you should re-home Thor. I am sorry if that hurts your feelings. Better your feelings then your neighbor’s leg.


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## MaggieRoseLee

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

When we know better, we do better, and I hope this all works out for dog, owner, and neighbor. Good luck and NO OFF LEASH until this is straightend and trained out!









And remember this website is just like everything else on the internet, read it all, and take the advice that works for you and your situation (but always what I recommend














)


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## Achielles UD

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

It sounds like things will work out afterall. I know it can be difficult and stressfull when taking in unknown dogs. I hope Seamus finds a new home soon for all the rest of your sanities'.

Self education is the first step and you are getting there







Ebay is a wonderful sourse as is Amazon for some cheaper books if you can't get to a library. You really can't learn too many methods. Along with training books, make sure to get canine psychology books too. There are many out there. The more you can read the better, even if you don't agree with it all.

What is that cheesy but true saying? The more you know, the less you don't know... ? lol something like that.

Take a breath. I hope the AC visit goes/went well. Then take a nice long soak in the tub with a margarita!


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## Cooper&me

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Have you talked at any length with George? If you could have George ther when AC comes out. I think if he helps "down play" the incident and supports your new plan to keep the community safe then the AC should go lightly.

Afterall if George feels secure that you have a handle on the situation that should help.

I do not think the e collar is the answer. No off leash and a muzzle on walks would do it if I were George.

I read your saga on your rehab with Seamus. You are a STRONG STRONG person.

Good luck on Thursday. I will keep my fingers crossed for Thor and you.


----------



## Skye'sMom

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Sounds like you are getting good advise about long lines, etc from others here. As for the flexi I would urge you to reconsider using one.

Flexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard. I have heard of them snapping and I heard of badly cut hands and legs from the lines when they are stretched out.

Better to try a strong type web long line so you can grab it if you have to. You can even make some extra loops on the line so you have a good hand hold on it.

I wish you well. I have never been in your situation and hope the outcome for Thor is good.

Being in contact and control of Thor and being alert at all times will be the key.


----------



## moei

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane,

Oh WOW! I just read this. I am sorry for all the stuff that is happening. I wish you well and hope the outcome is a happy one for all.

Best wishes


----------



## czgsd

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

just another thought about the latest "unprovoked" attack (since I don't know anything about the first one)-
If the handler is panicking and screaming at the neighbor to get back in his house, even a well trained dog might hear "help, save me from the attacker". That, and the dog probably sensed fear in the "attacker" (bitten before). The handler has to think about the message the dog is receiving, particularly while off leash. It may be too late for this dog to be trusted off leash, but he may have done fine if he only received firm, calm commands that he knew well. 

Good luck with AC. I really hope you get another chance with your dog. I'll be the first to admit that I've learned some things about dog training the hard way, but have been very fortunate that my dog has never injured a person. Even when it seems I'm taking every precaution, and training/preparing for every situation, there's often more to be done. (adult rescues, with unknown history, can be a challenge)


----------



## towtrip

I gotta agree with everyone else here. Even if you were able to reliably train Thor to come every single time you call him, he is still a dog with a bite history and you can't control the universe to make it safe from him. Therefore, you have to control him to make everyone else safe. Thor can never be off leash again unless he's in your own, securely fenced (i.e. 6 ft. high, opaque wood, double-latched gate) back yard. Quite frankly, my own dog is never outside without being on a long line. It's not that she's ever bitten anyone (okay, except for me when I put my hand in the middle of a fight to break it up), but she just thinks of the fence as a piece of agility equipment. A 50 ft long line keeps her safe and me sane.

Check out the threads on Rolo under Current Dog Affairs. That dog just had his euthanasia sentence reversed today -- and all he did was scratch the back of a woman's legs and scare the bejeezus out of her. He came back the minute he was called, too.

As for training advice on the cheap, certainly you can buy some of Patricia McConnell's or Trish King's or Karen Pryor's materials. After all, look at the money you would save on patching up neighbors and making amends....


----------



## towtrip

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Quote: Flexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard. I have heard of them snapping and I heard of badly cut hands and legs from the lines when they are stretched out.


Agree here. Flexis are useless and dangerous for big dogs. They are not an acceptable substitute for a good long line. I have several long lines and use different ones depending on what I'm doing. My favorite one for making certain I have absolute control, even if the dog is running full tilt, I got from myrope.com. It's marine-grade line -- nice and soft in your hands -- and comes in a choice of colors, too!


----------



## DianaM

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Yes, no flexis. Flexis also teach your dog to pull to get distance between itself and you. They are used with very well trained dogs just fine, but I think you need a long line. They are strong, they better simulate off leash experiences, and they're easy to get a handle on. 

When things calm down, how about getting some positive experiences going between your neighbor and Thor? Get a really short traffic lead, like 3' long or less, have Thor on the strongest collar possible, maybe even double-up (I've been known to keep a long line on the buckle while working with the prong and a regular leash), give your neighbor some of the treats that Thor absolutely loves (or if he loves balls, a can of tennis balls or whatever), and see if your neighbor will toss treats or toys to him. Keep your distance, but try to be relaxed. Maybe sit in lawn chairs about 10 or 15 feet apart as that helps to ease tension. Nothing may happen at first, but try to do this on a regular basis. If Thor won't accept treats or toys from your neighbor, maybe you and your neighbor can throw balls to each other. Sounds funny but if Thor sees the two of you playing, maybe he'll ease up and eventually want to join in. If your neighbor is willing to take part, this could make all the difference in the world; if Thor learns that your neighbor always has treats and toys, the relationship could do a complete 180. I wouldn't push any closeness or even petting, but if Thor is happy to see him from a distance, that would go a looooong way to resolving the problem.

One thing that is on my mind, though- if Thor exhibits NO aggressive behavior whatsoever to anyone but the neighbor, what did the neighbor do to deserve being the target of Thor's only aggression?







Maybe nothing, but sometimes you just never know.


----------



## middleofnowhere

> Originally Posted By: wrennyShe knows what she did wrong. Stop making it any worse. You are probably making her cry everytime she reads this by belittling her even after she admitted she made a very horrible mistake.
> 
> Start helping her and stop insulting her.



Insulting her? This is not just one "very horrible mistake" it is at least two - I would say three that are apparent in recent posts. To me it is clear that neither dog is being done a favor. The dogs unsettled at home, the neighbor is endangered. And it is insulting to suggest that both dogs need a different environment? I'm advocating for the dogs here. If someone creates chaos and causes harm to a third party (George in this case) they need to be able to take the heat. These actions may well have cost a dog his life. I see no purpose in sugar-coating this issue. If we sugar coat this I can predict how it will end. It will end with another incident where someone is hurt, the OP back here feeling sad because of the harm to her dog. I am for playing the music now and advocating that the dogs be rehomed to someone that can afford to take them to training.


----------



## chjhu

Rehoming a dog with this kind of bite history may be very difficult so the main burden is on the owner. I think that he can be kept safe with very careful management. I agree with others that he should NEVER be off leash (except in a safe, fenced area with no strangers) and he should be under total control on a short leash and even a muzzle around people outside the family for safety. Thor was obviously thinking that he was doing his job by protecting the owner from a perceived danger. With time he may declare other individuals as threats in his mind and one has to watch out for that. Also, even if he is off-leash on the beach, he could decide to take off and "check-out" George. He can probably find his way back home from places he is walked to with ease. Also people may show up suddenly.
Since we cannot control the environment we have to control the dog.
He may also one day inflict more serious damage.
I wish you good luck with AC tomorrow and hope that Thor and you will 
get another chance.


----------



## chjhu

The flexi can turn into a dangerous projectile if it slips out of the hand. I would not recommend it for this situation.


----------



## dearraine

I am sorry that you are going through this. Perhaps you can quickly hire a private dog trainer. This way you can show that you are taking this situation very seriously. Be proactive and good luck.


----------



## zyppi

Didn't read all the posts, but please consider that your dog didn't just bite - your dog went after a man - an attack.

I love my dogs, but people have reasonable right to be safe on their own property, public areas etc..

Your dog wasn't cornered, being threatened, hurt or in a strange situation. 

IMHO, this make your dog a liability to others - and to you if someone sues you.

I know you want what's best for the dog, but wonder if you'll see his actions from the perspective of the man being attacked?

If you are allowed to keep him, and I were you, I think I really would look for a home for him with an experienced handler who knows how to evaluate and train him.


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane, If you do get Lou to your place let me know......I'll drive down to see him too!!! Hang in there, I think back on how lucky I have been in the past, I know you will get through this and land on your feet....you're way to stubborn not to!


----------



## LouCastle

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: Skye'sMomFlexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard. I have heard of them snapping and I heard of badly cut hands and legs from the lines when they are stretched out.





> Originally Posted By: Susan FAgree here. Flexis are useless and dangerous for big dogs.


Flexis are not perfect but they are far from "useless." To be accurate, here's what my website says about them.


> Quote: There are two types of retractable leashes available. One uses a string and the other uses a flat nylon strap as the leash. I recommend the latter as the first one can cause injuries, including rope burns and some even more serious. Be sure not to grab the line, with either type. If the dog takes off, you can get some burns on your hand. Use only the mechanism provided to stop and start the leash. If you wear shorts while you're training be sure not to let the leash rub against your leg. If the dog decides to take off running, you can get rope burns.
> 
> I recommend that you rig a loop of rope through the handle of the mechanism that will go around your wrist so that if the dog pulls the mechanism from your hand it's still attached to your wrist, just like a standard leash.


I only recommend the Flexi for teaching the early phase of the recall.


----------



## chjhu

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Any news about the meeting? I was thinking of Thor today.


----------



## Cooper&me

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Any resolution? The meeting go OK?


----------



## StGeorgeK9

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I've been checking back to find out myself....


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: HatterasserIf anyone wants to know the outcome of my meeting with the AC, just pm me and I'll bring you up to date.


----------



## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I asked that those truly interested in the outcome to pm me but I decided it might be useful to anyone in my situation (and I KNOW I'm not alone in this type of situation) have the results so they can also know the possible outcomes.

Two ACO's visited the house yesterday. Thor defied all indications that he is vicious as he practically crawled in their laps to share kisses. *shakes head* Gotta wonder if he knew his fate was at stake. Although I know that both officers genuinely like Thor, the senior officer said at one point, "I now have to become neutral and talk to you from the officers' point of view." She then continued by telling me what would happen. Essentially it will be as follows:

...Thor is quarantined at home for 10 days.
...She will be filing a report with the county Dept. of Health and the county attorney and it will be up to them to decide whether he will be labeled a 'dangerous dog'.
...If he is, he will need to wear a muzzle whenever he is off the property.
...He will have to be on a leash at all times when outside the house.

Tho' she didn't specifically mention it, it was inferred that should anything like this last incident occur again, as a 'dangerous dog', there will be no further chances for him.

The good news is that they have found a trainer (one who specializes in training German Shepherds and Belgian Malinois) and they called her while at the house. I spoke to her briefly then, and for a longer time after they left. Thor will be going to board with her for a week to two weeks, then I will come up and train with him for an afternoon before taking him home. This will be followed up by weekly visits to her place until he receives his CGC certificate, which will weigh well with the Health Dept. and the ACO's.

She has suggested two things: One, that I bring George with me when I come to pick up Thor as she'd like to evaluate the interaction between the pair and see if there is someway to ameliorate their relationship. Two, she asked me to bring Seamus with me when I first bring Thor to her, again to evaluate Seamus and his interactions with Thor, and to determine if there is a way to resolve their differences....also to determine whether Seamus is salvageable.

I should point out that the senior ACO met Seamus and heard his story. She is extremely doubtful that he can come around in this environment, _if any_. She pointed out that he was only recently neutered, which means he's carried his testosterone around his entire life and is pretty much a territorial dog as a result...difficult to change at this age. She has offered to help if she can but advised that if he can't be helped, they could put him down, not something I'm willing to consider at this time. What was the point of rescuing him just to have it end that way but she points out that sometimes, that end is more peaceful for stressed dogs than living with the stress. *NOTE* that this was not the entire conversation so please, no jumping on my back. It was just the end result of a long conversation and meeting with Seamus.

So the fact that the trainer is also willing to evaluate Seamus and add her thoughts as to whether he is salvageable (in this home or any other) is a great help. 

Bottom line....Thor is not going to be put down but is in strict quarantine for the next week until the ACO's return. After that, he will be leaving home for training and then there will be follow up training after that. Both George's and Seamus's relationship with Thor will be evaluated and repairs made, hopefully. George specifically told the ACO's on their visit to him that he does not want Thor taken from me, that he realizes there is a problem between him and Thor (possibly his own pheromones disturb Thor...kid you not, that's what he said) and I know he will be willing to come with me to the trainer's. Right now, I'm blessing the ACO's, the trainer, George, Thor and all the folks who understood this situation and gave me the strength and moral support to get through this.

For those who don't agree with this outcome, please spare yourself and me the bother of posting your feelings. It is what it is and all your disagreements are not going to change it. Things are positive right now and none of us need negativity.


----------



## BowWowMeow

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Now, that's a small town community for you! They're involving everyone and working towards a positive outcome for everyone! They even found a trainer for you! That's really amazing. I'm so glad that everyone is willing to work together to help you and Thor succeed. And George is amazing! Wow! 

It does make me nervous, all this talk about Seamus being "salvageable." From everything that you've said, he would benefit from being in a home without other dogs. That's not such a big deal.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Just a note-while it would be nice for us to be able to control who posts on our threads or not (and even what they say) we are not able to do so. 

People on this site are generally good about providing good ideas and sometimes those come from things we may not want to hear. What is negativity to one may be a pretty good suggestion to another. I am sure people have gotten their initial responses out of their system. 

But regardless-it's a pretty simple thing and once you open a post...watch out.









Glad they have a trainer in your area! That's good news!

The testosterone is in their systems for a while after neutering. It dissipates though. That's also good news.


----------



## big_dog7777

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Good news all the way around. You and Thor get what you need... structured help from a professional. This is a massive win/win, especially since they are willing to support you with Seamus as well. Take the second chance, run with it and don't look back.


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## Cooper&me

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Great news.
I hope they are wrong about Seamus. I thought he was doing pretty good with other people and dogs, just not Thor. I agree yours might not be the ideal home but hopefully he will find his niche.

Truely glad the meeting went so well.


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## moei

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Great news! 

So glad they are willing to work with you and giving you options and help. Great to hear you have access to a trainer, way out there in the boonies...









Good luck!


----------



## RobinB

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Wonderful news! I am so glad you and Thor found a way to get the training you need. 

A quick note about the responses to this thread. I went back and reread every single post. There were only one or two that seemed unnecessarily harsh. Almost everyone expressed sympathy to either you or Thor. Most everyone seemed to feel that you need to never let Thor off lease and to get professional training. That is what you are doing. I can't imagine that any posters are unhappy with the outcome of the AC meeting. It is what we were hoping for.


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## marylou

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*








I love small towns ~

Thank you for posting the outcome; keep us updated on how Thor and Seamus do.


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## DianaM

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Excellent news!!

As for Seamus, you have done a wonderful thing by rescuing him. I believe no one should judge you until they've walked a mile in your shoes, and if it comes down to that decision, make sure he gets a Happy Meal in the shade of his favorite tree, spend some time together before you say goodbye. Some dogs are not able to be saved, they will forever be a liability. Yes, some people can manage them better than others but if the dog is always battling the demons in his head, that can be just as bad- or worse than- battling a debilitating physical condition. Bottom line is that you've done your best and exhausted the alternatives, have given him a good life, and took the responsibility for ensuring he's safe and protected to the very end. You will have people disagree with you and agree with you, you may have people curse you out, but in the end YOU carry the full weight on your shoulders, no one else.

*hug* Keep us updated!


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

If Thor can be rehabbed then Seamus can be rehabbed. Reread Seamus's thread. He's great with people and the only dog he is aggressive with is Thor. Diane has always been clear about this.


----------



## Catu

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Thor is grounded!!
All can I say is I'm happy for you and your canine family.


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## DianaM

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Ruth, I hadn't been following the thread. If that's the only problem, that's actually quite normal for two males to fight. Sounds like Seamus is a great guy, especially if he's great with people! That's a blessing!


----------



## Maedchen

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

_She has suggested two things: One, that I bring George with me when I come to pick up Thor as she'd like to evaluate the interaction between the pair and see if there is someway to ameliorate their relationship. _

That's excellent!!
I wonder what it is about George that bothers Thor. Is George disabled- has trouble walking in some way, or limping? Or maybe has a beard or wears big glasses? Just wondering.

Great news, though- you're VERY lucky!!


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## scannergirl

Diane, I know that there is a place in Manteo called Pupparatzi and if you call there she will give you the name of a local trainer. Granted, it is 60-90 minutes away, but that's how far I drive to Virginia for my puppy class. The Manteo trainer would have been closer for me, but I wanted the socialization aspect of PetSmart (lots of chaos, other dog breeds, etc) for her early education.
I'm sorry you are going through this, and I hope you can save the situation. 
If I can help you in any way you know where I am.....


----------



## Judykaye

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane, I am so happy that things have worked out as they did...I was so worried for you and Thor...

We have a wonderful 95% GSD girl who LOVED everyone...except men with black hair and beards...it was the most amazing thing...she never bit anyone but she sure did scare them. Totally caught us off guard.

You said that you rescued Thor from the shelter. Just wondering, could he have been absued?? Perhaps by a man that resembles George? Just a thought...

Again, I am THRILLED the way things turned out for you all...and Seamus is being checked out also...I am sending positive thoughts and prayers to you and the boys that all goes totally well for everyone concerned...

PLEASE, keep us posted on things...Judy


----------



## pinkanml

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I am very glad Thor gets another chance! Sounds like this trainer can really help you guys out. Good luck, Diane!!

For anyone unfamiliar with Thor and George's history I think what set things off wrong between Thor and George was an incident she posted about a while ago. (Please correct me if I'm mistaken on any part, Diane, I don't fully remember). 

Things were perfectly fine until one day Diane was outside with Thor and George was doing some yard work. He was carrying an arm/handful of sticks when he and Diane stopped to talk, with Thor sitting by her side. George began to gesture animatedly while speaking, forgetting the sticks in his hand, resulting in him swinging the sticks at Diane. Thor mistook this for a threat and bit George's leg.

Ever since that happened, Thor has hated George with a passion (apparently). This is also the reason why George doesn't hate the dog and is so forgiving, as he feels like it's his fault for swinging the sticks and that the dog reacted as he should have by protecting his mom from a perceived threat. 

I will try to find the post where she described exactly what happened.

Again, so glad you get to keep Thor!!


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## scannergirl

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Sorry, Diane- I posted after I read only the first page of this thread and did not have the whole story yet. I am still getting used to this forum.....
I am glad Dare is doing right by you.


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## k9sarneko

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I am glad things are looking up for you and Thor and maybe Seamus too. I am so sorry that this forum has been hard on you but I really think that everyone said what they said with the best of intentions. Sometimes its easier to point out others faults and mistakes while "armchair quaterbacking". In a perfect world all of us would never have made any mistakes with our dogs and would have been born knowing exactly what to do and our next door neighbours would all be dog wisperers but in real life we ALL screw up. Maybe we are lucky and our mistakes don't cause AC to come to our homes but if you point out one dog handler, owner, or trainer that has never made any mistakes then you are pointing out a lier. It sounds like you are trying to do the very best and you need to give George a serious hug. the best of luck to you and your pups.


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## middleofnowhere

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

The dogs and the owner are awfully lucky. All you have to do is check this board for stories like TTall's to get that affirmed. (And TTall's dog didn't even bite!) I think this is a lesson for everyone, especially those taking in older dogs of unknown backgrounds - "afford" training sooner rather than later and be especially careful if your dog is edgy at home because of changes there -- what is impacting him at home will likely carry over to other situations. Another resource all of us should keep in mind in case we are ever faced with the situation of being forced to dispose of a dog - Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Knab Utah.


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## Qyn

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I live in a relatively small town but there are leash laws and there are leash free areas. The majority of dog owners here, ignore rules concerning both areas. Sometimes confrontations occur when dogs who are consistently off leash in areas they are not supposed to be, start to become possessive about common areas. These dogs are owned by the same owners who refuse to control their dogs even after a problem has occurred.

Dogs need structured boundaries and consistent leadership in a normal dog pack but in many cases (with minimal direction) many dogs fit into human requirements with no problems --- but sometimes they do NOT and they need firmer direction. No dog needs (even if they are capable of handling it) the unrestricted freedom to make their own decisions and providing they get enough excercise and interaction with other dogs and humans they should be confident members of society. 

Dogs do not need to be let run free to do what they want to do including bailing up or mauling someone outside their property - however, if the owner does not specify a boundary some dogs will assume a far greater extent of ownership of that property than the owner is aware. 

I had a dog that displayed this behaviour and she was never let off leash (even in "safe areas") from the first time it happened no matter where we lived.


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## towtrip

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Skye'sMomFlexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard. I have heard of them snapping and I heard of badly cut hands and legs from the lines when they are stretched out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Susan FAgree here. Flexis are useless and dangerous for big dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Flexis are not perfect but they are far from "useless." To be accurate, here's what my website says about them.
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: There are two types of retractable leashes available. One uses a string and the other uses a flat nylon strap as the leash. I recommend the latter as the first one can cause injuries, including rope burns and some even more serious. Be sure not to grab the line, with either type. If the dog takes off, you can get some burns on your hand. Use only the mechanism provided to stop and start the leash. If you wear shorts while you're training be sure not to let the leash rub against your leg. If the dog decides to take off running, you can get rope burns.
> 
> I recommend that you rig a loop of rope through the handle of the mechanism that will go around your wrist so that if the dog pulls the mechanism from your hand it's still attached to your wrist, just like a standard leash.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I only recommend the Flexi for teaching the early phase of the recall.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Lou -- but I wholeheartedly disagree with using a retractable lead on any dog over 20 lbs. They break, they teach dogs to pull and your grip using your fingertips holding the handle can never be as strong as a palm grip on a regular leash or long line. 

We just had one of our dogs get killed because her adopter (who had had her for a week) was walking her on a Flexi, she got frightened, bolted, he lost his grip and she was hit by a car and killed. 

No, there is never a circumstance (particularly a circumstance involving a large German shepherd with a bite history) under which I will recommend a retractable leash.


----------



## towtrip

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Congratulations, Diane! I think this is the best possible outcome for you and Thor (and even Seamus). Obviously the ACO is advocating for Thor.

As for this:


> Quote: What was the point of rescuing him just to have it end that way but she points out that sometimes, that end is more peaceful for stressed dogs than living with the stress.


I agree that sometimes it is more inhumane to force a dog to live a life that causes him unhappiness and continued stress. For some, the injustices of their past have so colored their present that their future can never be bright. 

The point of rescuing a dog is to give it a chance at a happy life. If his life can never be happy, then what's the point of forcing him to live it?

On the other hand, it sounds like the trainer you have lined up is willing to give it a go and see if both Thor and Seamus can live happily.


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## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Just a sort of update on who's who for y'all and which dog was rescued from which environment:::::

*Thor*, 4 yrs old (approximately), almost 100 lbs. Lived tied to a tree in the north 40 of someone's back yard from age 3 months to age almost 1 yr. When he first came to me, he was not housebroken, had no clue of commands, was socially isolated, edgy and a loner. Since his arrival, he has become as close to a Velcro dog as possible (to me anyway); i.e has bonded to me. He is housebroken, sits, stays, comes (most of the time...obviously George was an aberration), drops/leaves it. Is socialized with people and dogs and our cats, though he barks at everything including any commercials that have an animal in it. P.S.pinkanml got it pretty much right in her post about what initially caused the breach of trust between Thor and George in the first place.

*Freya*, 2 and 1/2 (approximately), 88 lbs. Rescued from the local shelter in November 2007. Shy, sweet natured, the pacifier of the pack though she's a tween with a touch of typical teen 'attitude' now and then. Had apparently belonged to someone at one time but was a stray when picked up and had recently had puppies (sadly, never found). She is housebroken, understands tho' doesn't always immediately obey commands (except dinner time where she sits/stays at once until I say 'alright'...she isn't gonna give up a meal to prove a point...*grins). She tends to whimper/whine (best description I can think of) as a form of communication more than bark (which she does rarely) and loves everyone. Curious about the cats though not aggressive...likes to pounce on bugs and grasshoppers more. She bonded with Thor and likewise in return by Thor by the second day here..and lay at his side all the time his leg was healing from Seamus's attack. She now avoids any contact (eye or otherwise) with Seamus.

*Seamus*, 8 years (approximately), now 51 lbs (from 43 when he arrived). Rescued from a kill shelter in Ohio, transported down to NC in January 2008, neutered just before he was shipped out. From day one, we knew he had issues. Not housebroken (though he is now), no response to commands (though he now sits/stays for meals, leashing, etc. and returns to my side with clicking of tongue and his name...as do the other two). He abhors Thor and as you all know, attacked him (unprovoked except for his own issues..perhaps remainder of testoterones, perhaps territorial, perhaps fear...we don't know). Thor seems to be his main nemesis as he accepts Freya, as well as daughter's dogs Oliver (pitbull/boxer mix) and Izzy (pb pug). He loves people, is a regular Velcro dog to any human who wants to pet, pat, love him. Has an enormous amount of energy for an older dog (and I thought at one time, "Old dog, nice and quiet". Boy, was I mistaken). Lives isolated from the family/pack in his hallway 4' by 20'....not ideal but keeps everyone alive. 

Since Seamus's arrival, the household and the family/pack have been in an uproar. All of us are under continual stress, there is little peace. Seamus's quarters, while safe and warm, are not sufficient or adequate for an active, human-loving dog. I know he will need to be rehomed if he is to live a good life (and if Thor, Freya and I are to live a good life). We have three options now that his battle wounds are healed and he is off his medications: 
1. Find a better home for Seamus.
2. Hope that the trainer we have found for Thor will be able to find a solution for their joint animosity.
3. Put him down

The reason I write so freely on this site is to share the day to day trials and tribulations of an every day pet owner, as I am sure that not everyone here is the PERFECT owner and that everyone here has made mistakes in judgement and handling of our pets. Others have experienced similar problems to mine and come to this site for guidance, moral support and advice. Most of us can accept 'corrections' (so to speak) from those who have been there, done that and got three t-shirts for their efforts. But I know that many won't post their own experiences as frequently the responses to their woes are met by self-righteous PERFECT dog owners who can't understand _how it was even possible to make mistakes or errors in judgement_. These folks don't offer good advice, don't offer any empathy (as opposed to sympathy), but rather look down their noses at we simple dog lovers who try to do our best to love our furbabies and raise them well. Not always well or wise, but God knows we try.

Furthermore, we all know our own 'terrain', our own neighbors/neighborhoods, our own environments and most especially our own dogs, cats, horses, ferrets and other pets. Unless you have walked in our shoes per se, it is difficult to judge what we're talking about. It helps when we owners with troubled situations get advice specific to the handling of our pets, though it is not helpful to have personal attacks on our perceived stupidity, behavior or personality. 

Sorry if that raises anyone hackles but as much as I try to focus on only the good advice, I find it only adds to my distress when someone posts their self-prescribed "tough but necessary advice" which is not directed at the dog's issues but at MY ineptness, MY stupidity, MY supposed inability to even _own_ a dog. Trust me, it is NOT helpful in any way. I'm sure there are other struggling owners who feel the same way.

I am keeping the faith that this trainer will work miracles in ways I have been unable and too inexperienced to accomplish. I pray she can guide me to help Thor and George, and Seamus and Thor, to resolve their issues and _everyone can live happily ever after_ (my way of being facetious, by the way). I am hoping Thor can earn his CGC certificate. I am hoping he can even find a "job" to keep him busy in his everyday life with me...he's a great tracker by nature, so to find some game to play of that type would be great. 

Mostly, I'm trying to rectify a HUGE error in judgement on my part for rescuing the third dog, Seamus, and upsetting and creating chaos in what was a perfectly comfortable household. I am struggling with that spontaneous, ill-thought-out decision every day and attempting to do the best thing for all three of my dogs. 

Thank you all for being interested in these problems and I hope it helps any dog owner who faces the big decisions with their pets in tough times to know that there are others sharing your plight. Because no human and no dog is perfect....and there will be tough times. But from my own experiences here, I know there are folks who care and will try to help when and where they can.


----------



## zyppi

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I'm glad you've found a trainer and will get some good advice. Sounds like a good plan.


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## KAKZooKpr

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I'm glad that Thor has been given another chance & I hope the Trainer is able to help all of you. I think George must be a great person to have gone through two experiences with Thor & still be willing to help you out. I hope that he is willing & able to attend some training sessions and that a truce can be reached between he & Thor.

As for Seamus, it seems he would be perfectly fine as an only dog or with another compatable dog. He doesn't seem a candidate for euthanasia at this time (although I do not disagree that in some situations it is a kindness). It seems that Thor is the trouble, and as others have said, he may resemble a dog that attacked Seamus in the past.

My thoughts are with you, you are very brave to have done all that you have AND have the guts to share the good, the bad & the ugly on a public forum. Please keep us all posted and the best of luck to all of you!

Kristina


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## Cooper&me

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Did your daughter end up moving in?
If so could you not rotate the social groups since Seamus gets along with all others except Thor. Seamus could devide time in the outdoor kennel or hallway.

Have you talked morer to the trainer? It would make me nervous to hand over my dog for two weeks. Not that you have many options but I am sure it will still be tough.

When was the first, more serious attack on George? Before or after Seamus?

If your daughter did not move in could she take Seamus? Is he doing better on the leash?

The Seamus saga was amazing. You definately bit off more than you imagined or were told. I admire that you have hung in there.

Sorry if my earlier remarks were harsh but my niece was just bitten in the face by a dog that had attacked three kids previously. She is three and will require at LEAST two surgeries. My brother will not rest until this dog is euthenized.

Not at all the same story. I am truely happy Thor is getting help.


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## Timber1

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Thanks for telling us you are involved with rescue. And your neighbor is absolutely first class. You owe this guy a big time kiss.

I know nothing about your rescue group, but some will take an aggressive dog to a more experienced person. 

I now have two rescues, but figured the rescue group I am involved with gave me the easy ones (White GSD's) because I just started a few months ago.

Anyway, will your rescue group help. Frankly, you might get lucky with a trainer, but from personal experience unless you go high end, you could probably do a better job. Of course, just a personal opinion based on experience. 

The quick answer always seems to be get a trainer, and I think that is mostly BS. I have heard this so many times I wish it could be a permanent delete.

You made a mistake. Who on God's earth doesn't. Move on and accept what advice is helpful to you.

Finally, despite the incident with George, if anyone on is board is doing a better job of taking in and dealing with rescues I would sure like to hear from them.


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## middleofnowhere

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: Hatterasser........, I find it only adds to my distress when someone posts their self-prescribed "tough but necessary advice" which is not directed at the dog's issues but at MY ineptness, MY stupidity, MY supposed inability to even _own_ a dog. .....


A public board should bring a variety of points of view to any discussion. The responses are not necessarily aimed at making you feel bad or good or being what you want. The information/ responses are aimed at the *situation*. They are aimed at a wide audience, not solely the orignial poster. The posts can be seen by virtually anyone and I believe we owe honest responses whether they are regarded as pleasant or unpleasant. As you have experienced, the board is diverse and has diverse opinions. That's the essense of a discussion board - discussion.


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## Mary Jane

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: HatterasserI am sure that not everyone here is the PERFECT owner and that everyone here has made mistakes in judgement and handling of our pets.


Well that certainly describes me Diane and is part of the reason I have hesitated to post since you learned that Animal Control wants to work with you and there is a trainer available to you for Thor. Our dear Wolf's bite of our nice neighbor would have been easy to avoid-but as they say-if I knew then what I know now.

So even though I am not in a position to give advice, may I say that I would not force Thor to interact with George on the initial trip to the trainer. Although it is clear that the trainer would learn something from watching Thor's response to George my understanding was that you have other training goals. A 100% reliable recall-a firm leave it. Perhaps I am wrong but the way I read your post was that Thor would be forced to drive for sometime with George in the car. That sounds like too much pressure to be followed by training with a stranger for several days. 

Again, not that I know what I'm talking about, but I would also hesitate to add Seamus to the mix, if the point is to tone up your training with Thor. I believe that you said that Seamus and Thor would both be happier divorced, so I don't exactly see why you have to add the challenge of reuniting them to your other work.

With these options offered you by Animal Control (and not others!), your world must look brighter.

Mary Jane


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## Lynnemd

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Glad things are moving in a positive direction and bless that wonderful neighbor.

From the sounds of things, I would work on finding Seamus another home where he can get the attention he needs. It was lovely of you to take him in and give it a try but if he has your house in an uproar.....with everything else you are coping with, sounds like you don't need that issue too!

I would follow the advice of the trainer absent clear reason not to do so. Trainers have different methods and can be second-guessed all day long. Best of luck to you!


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## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

mjb03...Yes, daughter is finally ensconced happily in the house (do our children ever leave home permanently anymore these days? *laughing*) but she has her own business and life and is seldom home.

I am of course nervous about leaving Thor with a total stranger but I have spoken to the woman several times and she sounds level-headed and sensible. The ACOs swear by her (her specialty is with German Shepherd and Belgian Malinois). Too bad we can't give our furbabies a cell phone to call home if they're upset or scared. But Thor will do okay, I'm sure. He's a quiet, solemn lad who only wants to be with me so I hope he focuses on his lessons so he can come home as soon as possible.

By the way, there's a post on page 3 (I think) of this thread by pinkanml that recaps the original incident between George and Thor very well. It occurred before either Freya or Seamus arrived and was due to a perceived threat (on Thor's part) by George against me.

Interestingly, the day that the ACOs were visiting me, my own boss was bitten by a pit bull on her chin (56 stitches and future plastic surgery required) so I can empathize with your niece. I pray she will recover well and will not hate dogs as result....I'm sure you'll help her with both.

Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get). Thor came from a backyard where he was tied on a short chain for 8 months of his puppyhood. Freya came from our local county shelter but Thor and I both met her before we decided to adopt. So I have no recourse but to deal with the situation as I have it.

As to trainers, I've been searching for a trainer since even before the first George incident. Thor is a big, strong, stubborn (sometimes) dog who has pulled on the leash since I got him. I always wanted to have some lessons with him so I am looking forward to this entire process.

MaryJane....I guess I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Let my try and clarify it. When I take Thor up to the trainer's, he will ride in the bed of the truck (covered by a cap, I should point out). I will bring only Seamus on this trip and he will ride in the back seat of the truck (the two will be separated the entire ride....and yes, I'm a good ole southern gal with a dual cab, 4wd, pickup truck). The trainer will watch both Thor and Seamus and try to see which one of them is the aggressor. She has told me that though I believe it to be Seamus, it could be Thor that is actually giving subtle moves and threats that I'm not picking up. Then....Thor will stay with her for two weeks and Seamus will come home with me.

When I go back to pick up Thor two weeks later, then and only then will I bring George along. Trainer will watch the interractions between them, work with any aggression she sees on the spot, have me work with Thor and between her, George and me, attempt to reach some form of detente before we leave. Then we'll all go home together, though Thor will once again be in the rear of the truck and no where near George on the ride. 

Thor and I will continue to travel up the beach once a week for some time after this, until he gets his CGC certificate, so we can turn that over to the Dept. of Health and the ACOs...and so I feel I have a better handle on controlling him.

As a side note........I've been reading three books sent to me by a lovely lady from this very site (I won't mention her name as I'm not sure she'd want me to) but they are fascinating...and I can't thank her enough. I've been reading "For the Love of a Dog" and "The Other End of the Leash" by behaviorist Patricia McConnell and "Bringing Light to Shadow" by Pamela Dennison. I find it amazing how lacking in vision we humans are, how many small signs our dogs give us that we miss. Somewhere on this site, though heaven knows where, I remember seeing something by someone to the effect that "We learn more from our dogs than they ever learn from us". So true...and I'm learning.

But hey, I've heard that Alzheimers affects those that don't use their brains so teaching this 'old dog' some new tricks can't be all bad. If that's true, I can keep going for another 20 years (assuming this old bod can hold up that long) *grinning*


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## k9sarneko

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

So proud of the work you are doing Diane. Also for your bravery continuing to post after some of the truely scathing responses you have received. You may also enjoy reading "Calming signals" I can't remember the author but I will get it for you. I liked it because of the insite to the ever so slight body changes that before I didn't pick up on. Ever little bit we learn on reading our furry best friends is helpful I think. I wish you the very best with the trainer. I hope that you will continue to update how you and the dogs are doing. I for one am sending you nothing but positive thoughts and vibes for both Thor and Seamus. Keep up the good work. And hug George again for all of us.


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## 3K9Mom

I too am glad that things seem to be looking up for you. 

I'd like to point out something you said at the beginning. I don't bring it up to criticize you in any way, because you certainly have stepped up to the plate. But rather, as a precaution to others:



> Quote:
> 
> And please, I beg all of you not to repeat again and again that I should talk to a good trainer or a behaviorist. I don't know how many ways I can explain that the nearest trainer/behaviorist is well over 4 or 5 hours away from me, that I live on a pension, that it takes more than I can afford to buy gas just to drive to the vet's (70 miles away), which I've done 3 times this past month. I'm alone here, folks.


There have been discussions at this forum, often heated discussions, about who should get dogs in terms of finances, the argument being that if they can't afford a substantial breeder's fee or a high adoption fees perhaps they don't have any business getting a dog (or another dog) because _ you never know what might go wrong and how much it's going to cost _. 

I think your experience has been a big eye-opener to a lot of us here for a lot of reasons, and one of them is that when things go wrong, they can get very expensive, simply in terms of finances, not even mentioning the heartbreak, stress, and possibility of losing your dog. 

I truly don't mean to criticize you personally. But I thought that this lesson might be useful to others thinking about getting a dog (or another dog) here. That's why I wanted to call attention to what you wrote previously. Somehow, you're managing to pay for the training, in spite of what you previously said, which must be a considerable hardship. You're to be commended for that.


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## Sashmom

Best of luck to you Diane.


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## Cooper&me

Diane
You are a class act. You handle all this with such dignity and then have the courage to lay it out for all to see and critisize.

I hope you do not mind but I printed all your threads out for my brother to read. I thought it might help in dealing with the family of the dog that bite his daughter. Compassion seems to be the first casualty during a stressful situation.


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## towtrip

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Quote:Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get).


Being a frequent visitor to the URGENT Section (and not pointed at you, Diane), but this statement hit a chord. Often, those of us who are in rescue and "have seen it all" get beat up badly by others when we try to throw up red flags, question when someone is trying to pull a specific dog, etc. We've learned the hard way that dogs posted in that section can be posted by anyone (remember, again, that this is a Public forum) and they are all listed as "sweet" and "SOMEBODY'S GOT TO HELP HIM OR HE WILL DIIIIIIEEEE!" 

We try to encourage individuals to work through the rescue groups so that we can get good temperament evaluations, etc., and help increase the odds that the dog will be a good fit for the home. (It also helps ensure that the dog ends up in a home that can handle him/her.)

We have also learned that not everybody's temperament evaluations are reliable, have a fairly good idea whose are rock-solid, etc., and then the dogs get further evaluation once they're in foster care. So, Diane, I don't know that it's as much a matter of not meeting the dog prior to adoption (less than half of our adopters actually meet their dog prior to adoption), as much as making certain that you have good, reliable information and you (or anyone else) is THINKING about the information instead of just reacting to the emotion. 

Also, a good rescue group will back up the adoption and take the dog back if it doesn't work out.


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## towtrip

> Originally Posted By: mjb03Diane
> You are a class act. You handle all this with such dignity and then have the courage to lay it out for all to see and critisize.


I agree!


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## LUV_GSDs

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: Skye'sMom
> Flexis are dangerous with any dog that runs or pulls hard.


I use a Flexi just to potty walk the dog on my property. Never off property. One of the biggest issues is that if you have it on Flexi mode and not locked the dog can run fast and hard and you can't react fast enough to lock it. In order to lock it you have to use your thumb and once you don't have a grip with the thumb you can lose the dog or the dog can reach someone and bite.


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## LUV_GSDs

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: DianaM,,,,be relaxed.
> 
> One thing that is on my mind, though- if Thor exhibits NO aggressive behavior whatsoever to anyone but the neighbor, what did the neighbor do to deserve being the target of Thor's only aggression?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe nothing, but sometimes you just never know.


Well my dog hates a neighbor because she appeared from in between some bushes one day in the same place a bear frightened her and all the treat throwing over the years still hasn't worked. But yes above all breath slowly and deeply and let the dog know you are relaxed when you try this. Maybe even ask the neighbor for an old sneaker of his and let Thor sniff it for doing something good. Yelling and screaming will wind up a dog and I'm sure that Thor didn't even process anything like come or any other command at that point.


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## LUV_GSDs

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane,

When you get to the end of Pam's book I'm really sure it will really hit home. I love what she keeps telling herself and you will see your own story in it.

Good luck and I bet you and the boys (Thor and George) just may have the beginnings of a great friendship.

Karen


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## StGeorgeK9

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: Susan F
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, a good rescue group will back up the adoption and take the dog back if it doesn't work out.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!!! All of our contracts state that there is a trial period where the dog will be taken back immediately, we also will take a dog back outside that but it follows along the lines of owner surrender. I hate to see bad things happen to these animals, but it is unfair to the dog and the adopting party to not be given a fair evaluation, not just while in a shelter, but also how he/she reacts in a real life home setting.


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## mmiller

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*



> Originally Posted By: Susan F
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Timber1...I have no rescue groups. I adopted Seamus outright (sight unseen) from a kill shelter in Ohio and had him transported down to North Carolina...did it through the URGENT Forum right here on gsd.com (There's a lesson here, I think, not to adopt a dog you've never met or you take what you get).
> 
> 
> 
> Being a frequent visitor to the URGENT Section (and not pointed at you, Diane), but this statement hit a chord. Often, those of us who are in rescue and "have seen it all" get beat up badly by others when we try to throw up red flags, question when someone is trying to pull a specific dog, etc. We've learned the hard way that dogs posted in that section can be posted by anyone (remember, again, that this is a Public forum) and they are all listed as "sweet" and "SOMEBODY'S GOT TO HELP HIM OR HE WILL DIIIIIIEEEE!"
> 
> We try to encourage individuals to work through the rescue groups so that we can get good temperament evaluations, etc., and help increase the odds that the dog will be a good fit for the home. (It also helps ensure that the dog ends up in a home that can handle him/her.)
> 
> We have also learned that not everybody's temperament evaluations are reliable, have a fairly good idea whose are rock-solid, etc., and then the dogs get further evaluation once they're in foster care. So, Diane, I don't know that it's as much a matter of not meeting the dog prior to adoption (less than half of our adopters actually meet their dog prior to adoption), as much as making certain that you have good, reliable information and you (or anyone else) is THINKING about the information instead of just reacting to the emotion.
> 
> Also, a good rescue group will back up the adoption and take the dog back if it doesn't work out.
Click to expand...

AMEN! Most people have no idea what we rescues go thru...and when we have to put down a dog for an iffy temperament we are thrown to the lions, when in fact it was the irresponsible owner at fault. We just clean up the messes and are the bad guys when the dogs fail temp testing. I would also like to add my two cents worth about MOST of the dogs I have pulled from this board...VERY FEW I HAVE GOTTEN HAVE BEEN EVALED CORRECTLY. I HAVE BEEN GIVEN BAD OR INCORRECT INFORMATION ABOUT THE DOGS BEHAVIORS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF PULLING A GSD OUT AF A SHELTER. MOST OF THEM ARE RED FLAG CASES THAT I HAVE A HECK OF A TIME PLACING INTO HOMES WHERE I KNOW THEY WON'T FAIL. 
I know Diane has learned a valuable lesson and I dare say Thor will not be off lead again. But this is the EXACT type of case that is put on the board for us rescues to save....If we get shut down for placing aggressive dogs then the dogs suffer, bottom line.


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## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

k9sarneko....both of McConnell's books address those small subtle moves that dogs make that we as humans miss. And you're right...it is amazing how much we miss them but once one learns to watch for them, it makes a big difference in how one views the dog. I've been watching all three of mine lately and seeing the signs that matter.

3K9Mom....You are soooo right. Prior to the arrival of Seamus, all I worried about was how much my dogs ate and how much their annual checkups would cost. The inclusion of my third 'rescued' dog has upped the ante 10 times what I expected. It wasn't just the cost of the rescue/adoption fees but the vet fees from the blood battle between Thor and Seamus and the medical costs to cover poor George's doctor's visit. I don't think that prospective dog owners should have their tax returns reviewed as part of the rescue/adoption process (that's a joke, folks) but I think prospective dog owners ought to know their own ability to cover unexpected expenses. I was caught off-guard and was ill prepared to deal with costs I've incurred but the responsibility to care for my dogs is mine and I'll have to find the way.

mjb03....*snickering* sure you can send the posts to your brother but don't forget to include the scathing attacks on my ineptness, stupidity and idiocy as well. He needs both viewpoints, don't you think?

Susan F....sadly, the URGENT forum was what caused me to make an ill-advised adoption even though there was originally in the initial posts some mention of 'aggression' that later was changed to 'sweet, sad dog in need of a good home'. It is without question a good forum for saving dogs from kill shelters and horrendous conditions but I have concluded that the individual should avoid taking a chance on their own. It is IMHO better to allow a rescue group who is aware of the potential behavioral problems take the rescue first, do a thorough evaluation of the the dog and then put the dog up for adoption if it is determined not only that the dog has no or few essential problems but can also be directed to the proper home environment.

I have to say that Nancy Meyers from the Chillicothe Ross County Shelter WOULD have taken Seamus back but who's going to go through the horrendous difficulty of arranging transport back from North Carolina to Ohio...and what would that solve anyway? He would have been going back to a kill shelter, which was the entire purpose of adopting him out in the first place. All the time, effort and money would have been wasted in a move like that.

mmiller....And for both you and Susan F, I for one applaud your efforts, even if in the end, a dog must be put down for issues unresolvable. My own ACO (as mentioned in one of my threads) has doubts about Seamus and has told me that she would help where she could but suggested that he perhaps should be put down. I will wait until I introduce him to the trainer and allow her to evaluate the issues between Seamus and Thor, add that to the ACO's opinions and then come up with a decision that works best for Seamus himself. I know that if I finally conclude that he is too far gone to deal with and decide to put him down, I will be pummelled with stones and rocks from many on this site. But all I can say is 'walk in my, and my dog's, shoes/paws first'. I don't think anyone can make judgement calls until they do.

LUV_GSDs....But I will finish with those books first, gal. Each page gives me more information than I ever knew existed about dogs. *grins* Dogs were just dogs to me until I began reading. It is amazing to me to see how their brains work and how my interraction with them can be more than confusing to them. I think all dog owners should read about their dogs; you begin to realize that much of their problems is based on what you as their owner do, or not do as the case may be.


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## towtrip

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane,

I just read your other thread on Seamus. While he may not be "the" dog for you, you've only had him 2 months, right? IMHO -- he has made tremendous positive strides forward in those two months. You're obviously doing something right with him and he's responding. 

You may not see the progress because you're living in the trenches, but the dog you're describing today sounds nothing like the dog you were describing in January. Good job!

Thor and Seamus may never be able to peaceably co-habit, but that doesn't mean that you haven't done right by them. Good luck with the training!


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## Timber1

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Thanks for clarifying. I do not have enough experience to even comment on adopting from the urgent section. I did arrange a few adoptions, but those dogs ended up with rescue groups, after having been treated by my vet.

I do know the rescue group I am working with has been very helpful, but every now and then I see a dog in the urgent section, and rather then let it be killed, would like to give the dog another shot at life.


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## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I took Thor up the beach (along with Seamus who went to the vet's) to the trainer's to board for ten days. And what a day to do so. Wind was blowing so hard it blew the sound water over the only road to home so it took me six hours to take what is usually an hour's drive home. Troopers closed off the road for hours as water was three feet deep and cars were already stalled in the water and owners being rescued from the tops of their cars. Finally, late in the evening, the wind and water had died down enough that they were letting 4WD trucks thru....so I got home, creeping inch by inch through a foot/2 feet of water at spots, very late. Both Freya and I were exhausted (I took her along for the ride with Thor to the trainer's).

I like the woman who is training him and he is comfortable with her too. She has two Malinois and four GSD's of her own that she takes up to Virginia for Schutzhund events....all gorgeous dogs. The kennels are spotless, the grounds more than adequate. 

She took charge of Thor immediately and took him off for a quick walk to see how he behaved on leash. She had him heeling in 15 minutes...I was in awe. I stayed for two hours and watched her work her Malinois, toured the kennels and grounds, went over Thor's habits and diet, etc. She was thoughtful enough to call me last night to tell me that Thor was fine, had eaten all his dinner, had his treat at bedtime and she was going to start serious training today...she was letting him settle in for the first night before worrying him about anything else.

Today, I got a call from her. She loves Thor as does everyone who has met him...and he's met a bunch of new people. She tells me he is 'doubtful' about obedience. Yes, I asked. I didn't know either. As she explains it, the first 10 months of his life he was left alone, tied to a tree, unsocialized and isolated. The end result is he is unsure of himself; i.e. lacks self-esteem, particularly in insecure situations (which is anything outside of the house and me). Thus he's uncertain about what she's asking of him...but he did pretty well for a first day if a bit slow...and 'doubtful'...to respond. As he's not food/treat driven, she has to find what it is that he sees as a reward, though she says letting him run around off leash in the yard makes him happy. *grins*

But she also wanted to assure me of something else. She said that had it not been for his innate temperament (solemn, quiet, laid back), he could BE a dangerous dog. However, according to her, he doesn't have a 'mean bone' in his body. He met four strange men today, one her boyfriend (a big guy), who let him out of the kennel to the yard. Thor ambled along at his side, perfectly at ease. One man only did he take any 'interest' in...but it was funny, she said. As the man approached, Thor looked like he was humming to himself (la de da dum), and only watching this man from the corner of his eye. It wasn't until the man turned to leave that Thor's ears pricked, and she could hear him sniffing the air while watching the man closely. It was the only sign of unusual interest she observed. One correction and a 'look at me, Thor!' and he turned away immediately.

Whatever is going on between Thor and George is, in her mind, an anomaly...and may have something to do with George's fear and Thor's fear of George's fear....if that makes any sense the way I tried to explain it. She's is very hopeful that whatever is going on can be resolved by Thor being totally obedient to 'sit, stay' or 'come, down', whatever is needed at the time...and he and George meeting in her presence to see what the behavioral aspects of Thor are at that meeting.

Otherwise, she is quite pleased with Thor, and feels we can build his confidence in himself and his self-esteem. She's says one can't change temperament but one can alter behavior and fortunately, she likes Thor's temperament.

When I bring him home again in ten days, I will work with him separately from Freya (and Seamus if he's back here) and take Thor up once a week for additional obedience classes so he can get his CGC certificate, much needed for the county to un-label him from 'dangerous' if they do label him that way (they haven't yet). Things are looking up for Thor, though Freya is lonely...thank heavens for Kat's two dogs. They've been keeping her company while Thor is away.


----------



## KAKZooKpr

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

That's wonderful. It sounds like a really positive start. I look forward to hearing how it all goes.

Kristina


----------



## Catu

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

thanks for the update. Your trainer sounds like she's perfect for Thor needs.


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## k9sarneko

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Yeah! Go Thor Go. So glad he is getting the help you both need. Please keep us updated.


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## moei

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Any updates?


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## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Part 2 about my pack of ruffians (Part one is in the General Behavior forum in Seamus's oddyssey thread).....

Yesterday, I went to pick up Thor from the trainer's and stopped en route to get Seamus first so she could evaluate him and his relationship with Thor (see the other thread about the results on Seamus). But Laura had me park away (downwind...*grins*) from Thor so she could work with Thor and George first. I peeked over the dashboard to watch when they were facing away from me and the truck. When they first appeared, George was walking alongside Laura and Thor. Periodically, they'd both kneel down, George handed treats to Thor and then they were up and walking again. They disappeared around a bend in the road but when they came back, GEORGE WAS WALKING THOR!!! I was stunned! 

However, I know the exact moment he saw and recognized the truck. His entire focus changed and though he continued to heel and sit, his eyes were facing in my direction, ears at full point. Laura said she knew it too so as she was certain that George and Thor were okay, she moved to the fenced compound.

When they returned to the compound, she had me come inside and (after Thor and I hugged for minutes...*giggling*) stand with George, where either he or I threw toys for Thor to bring and generally just puttered around. George picked up sticks and threw them over the fence while Thor watched but seemed only curious but not concerned. There was no aggression, no reaction to George other than pleasure on Thor's part. Laura suggests that George and I meet frequently, that I hand treats to him to give to Thor, that we just socialize and expect Thor to do the same. 

Thor has learned to walk, sit, turn, come, leave it and back which (after our time spent with George who went back to sit in the truck) Laura and I practiced together until she was certain I had the commands and the corrections down pat. I was weak on corrections and have to get tougher (it seems I was lacking that 'alpha' mode...*grins). 

But the interesting news is that Laura thinks Thor is a big baby, without an aggressive bone in his body. She has in the past 10 days marched every type of human and animal past him and he is oblivious. He had one tentative reaction to one man early on which a mild correction resolved and she said he had the same tentative behavior towards George when he first saw him but it was over in a moment. She thinks he suffers from separation anxiety whenever I move out of sight (at least when he is away from the security of home) and that he's a big baby dog in the wrong body...nothing like the confidence and drive of a normal GSD. Even Freya is more confident than he is, which may explain why overly-dominant Seamus is exhibiting his behavior towards Thor. Thor is much larger (twice the weight of Seamus) but less confident and certainly not anywhere near as dominant as Seamus.

She's going to have a talk with the ACOs (one of whom's wife is her assistant and she's already asked him, "what's up with labeling Thor dangerous? He's a laid back, shy baby that had a major problem but that's over now.") We may never understand what happened with George other than the remnants of Thor's initial perception of George as a threat to me, but they have become BFF.

But with the training he's had so far, he's a different dog. We've walked three times since we got home and I had both Freya and Thor (who I walk together) heeling and sitting as nice as you please. And Seamus is responding just as well when I walked him. I'm finding my alpha, I think. *chuckles*

Both Thor and Seamus will be going to weekly obedience classes and she is sure they will both be able to get their CGC certificates. I am so proud of both of them. And I am soooooooo happy I found Laura....what a gift she has been to my pack and me.


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## Cooper&me

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

How exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is Seamus back home now? I need to go read the other thread.

YOU ARE A SAINT AND DESERVE ALL THE SUCCESS IN THE WORLD.


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## jarn

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

that's great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## LUV_GSDs

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

WOWOOOO...Diane isn't this realization great. You just let your babies get the best of you. I have seen true alpha people (born that way); I mean with dogs and they almost seem magical to me. My dog will respond to an alpha person in a way that is most amazing. As if she  were always at their side. I have a friend that has this inborn ability with dogs. I have watched her pack follow her off lead and not ever look at anything outside their path. I am learning but don't think I will ever be at that place mentally where my friend is. My husband is also much better than I am at the whole alpha role; as I witness the dog's behavior with him vs me. I am getting better at it; the real lesson that I have been learning over the last year is that the human (me) needs training and retraining. I actually can hear my trainers voice in my head sometimes telling me what I should or should not be doing. Good luck with your human training I also think that if George acts as an alpha with Thor the problems they had will disappear. Perhaps George should observe your sessions. Keep posting; I look forward to your writings.


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## LUV_GSDs

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I just noticed I said my trainer not my dogs)


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## moei

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*


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## Hatterasser

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

It's been over a month since I discussed Thor and his progress with the training routine so I thought I'd bring y'all up to date. He goes to training sessions every Sunday (with one Sunday missed due to rain, rain, rain..7 inches in 3 days). I will have to reschedule as the 'season' has begun and the drive is horrendous. Our 60 mile long, 2 lane highway is filled with the tourists changing over the beach cottages on weekends. Why can't people go at least the speed limit? It's ridiculous to have some idiot driving 35 in a 55 mile zone, lining up 80 cars behind him so no one can pass. But I digress...sorry for the rant. All it means is that we will have to go up during the week though it will deprive Thor of the interaction with all the other trainees on Sunday.

However, he is doing just fine. He listens well, heels, sits and stays as he's told to do, though sometimes slower to respond than we would like. He has lazy days, where it's almost as though he yawns with boredom and gives me a "Are we done yet?" look before continuing. He gets along with all the other dogs and their owners with nary a sign of any aggression. He plays with the dogs (male and female) in the compound after training time with pleasure. 

Both he and Freya have calmed down to their old ways now that the stress of Seamus's presence in the household is no longer there. Thor has healed well from his wounds, though he has an impressive scar on his cheek (like a pirate...*smiles*), he's finally eating well again and gaining back a lot of his lost weight (he lost as much as 15 lbs while Seamus was here). Freya too is no longer frantic and is being used by the trainer to help with the dogs that tend to be fearful and anxious at the training ground.

During the week, I continue with his training on our walks. Once he's done his business and can focus, we do a 10 minute workout with heel, sit, stay and he responds well. One problem we have found with Thor is his complete disinterest in 'treats'. Both the trainer and I have offered treats as praise and he turns his head away. He doesn't go for any kind....hot dogs, cheese, crunchy bars, chicken...even squeaky toys (which he loves to play with). So we are limited to verbal praise and pats on the head. 

Basically, he is lazy and laid back. The trainer has said so often he's an old bassett hound disguised as a GSD..."gimme my food, my warm bed and mom, that's all I want. Otherwise, just leave me alone." We have not seen much of George, though the bare few times we've crossed paths with him, Thor has shown no aggression towards him at all. So that part worked.

However, he did a strange thing the other day. It was warm, the sun was shining, both Thor and Freya are moulting (*grins* shedding) so I thought it was time for a bath. Freya was drying off on the porch and Thor was covered with bubbles when a car turned at the corner onto our street to the beach. Thor's head rose, and suddenly he was off and running, tearing the leash from my hand. I called and called for him to 'come' and he kept on chasing this car. I hopped into my truck and followed and caught up with both car and Thor near the beach. The car had stopped in the middle of the road and Thor was circling the car, barking with excitement, his tail waving madly in the air. I have to admit he actually looked like he was 'happy' to see this car.

I caught his leash and tossed him in the truck, went back to the car and apologized for scaring them to death, and took Thor home. The rest of the evening, I was super alpha towards him, giving him no leeway to not obey immediately if I told him to come, sit, stay, etc. He knew he was in trouble and eyed me with looks of shame. To this minute, neither the trainer nor I can explain this behavior. Cars by the dozens turn this corner every hour of the day (it IS the only one to the beach so it's well used) and he's never reacted this way to any of them. 

So why this one? What was it about this car that caused him to chase it? There were no animals in the car, just two strange people, which he would not have been able to see at first thru our tall wooden fence that blocks the actual corner itself. He only caught a glimpse of the car as it passed the opening where I park the truck. But that glimpse was enough and he was gone in an instant. And it wasn't even a local car....just an out-of-state visitor...so he'd never seen it before.

Both the trainer and I however determined that this is something we have to correct in whatever method it takes, including the possibility of an electronic-collar. I mean, dear God, what if those folks had not just sat there waiting for me and had gotten out of the car. He wasn't wearing a muzzle as he was in our yard, on a leash, covered with soap. Would Thor have bitten them? Who knows. It's these rare events (like with George and this random car) that cause us to wonder what goes on in his head. This lazy, laid back, non-aggressive dog 99% of his life suddenly does weird things that are unaccountable given his normal behavior and personality. 

Do you all think it's something from his life before he came to me? I mean, he spent 8 months of his puppyhood, the age when puppies' personalities are formed, tied to a tree all by himself, way away from any socialization with humans, dogs, cats, etc. Yet from the moment I first saw him, he's been the biggest baby, a true wuss of a dog. He has none of the drive that GSD's seem to have (even Freya has more than he does though she is such a gentle being, who the trainer wants to train as a therapy dog). So why these rare moments of idiocy? 

Any thoughts????


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## rowansd

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Diane I am no expert but I just read through this and you need to be SO careful with Thor right now. This could have gone very badly again for him and you, if he still cannot be trusted to come back to you when you call and is strong enough to pull the leash from your hand please please have him tethered or on a zip line or something so he cannot get out of your yard.
Can't wait to meet you and Thor and Freya!
Susan


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## shadow mum

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I am so happy to read that things are going well for you, Thor and Freya!!! Good job. I only hope that when I make mistakes, and I know that I have and will again, that I can handle them as well as you have.


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## Kaitadog

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

Just another money saving suggestion. You can try freecycle.org and craigslist to find low cost or even free muzzles, leashes, books, dvds, etc. You can post a wanted request, and some people have these items laying around and are willing to send them to you. 

It can be done. Good luck.


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## gdog1985

> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9Ok, I'm sorry, but this dog has bit before and yet you let him off leash?? I just don't get it, I'm sorry.


I agree. I'm suprised that AC didn't take him right away since this is the second time and the same person. How do you think your neighbor feels?


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## scannergirl

> Originally Posted By: gdog1985
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: GSDBESTK9Ok, I'm sorry, but this dog has bit before and yet you let him off leash?? I just don't get it, I'm sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I'm suprised that AC didn't take him right away since this is the second time and the same person. How do you think your neighbor feels?
Click to expand...

Do you realize this was a post from 2-26, the issue is being addressed, and the neighbor, who's name is George, was participating in Thor's training? 
She took way more than enough of a beating at the time. I think we can be done with that now.


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## Timber1

*Re: A second bite and I'm terrified! e-collar!*

I love your posts. It is amazing how much these dogs and a good person can accomplish.


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## whitney

I am glad things are going well. Life is full of mistakes.. it's all about what you do with them that matters.

Maybe I will see you and Thor on Hatteras sometime








I have gone every summer since I was 4 years old..(I come from a family of fisherman) and I make eyes at every GSD I see.. lol. Hatteras, Ocracoke and the outer banks in general are my favorite places on earth.. when I win the lottery maybe I'll be your neighbor. 

I hope things keep on the right track with the training.. I wish you good luck!!!


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## LedZep

> Originally Posted By: wrennyShe knows what she did wrong. Stop making it any worse. You are probably making her cry everytime she reads this by belittling her even after she admitted she made a very horrible mistake.
> 
> Start helping her and stop insulting her.


People are trying to help. I haven't read any posts (didn't read them all though) that were mean spirited or cruel hearted toward the OP, but she has offered her story on the Internet and asked for advice... putting myself in the shoes of the poor neighbor, she's lucky he didn't come back outside with a gun and end the debate right there - as much as I love dogs, you let one bite me twice in my driveway and they'll be putting it in a bag to haul away.

The OP does not posess the self discipline and control necessary to guarantee it won't happen again. Already, while in fear of losing the dog, she is hedging her bets with "ifs" and "unless's". The best idea I've read is to give the dog to someone who can train and manage it.

I feel for the OP, very much, but she is being negligent and probably will again.


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## scannergirl

> Originally Posted By: LedZep
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: wrennyShe knows what she did wrong. Stop making it any worse. You are probably making her cry everytime she reads this by belittling her even after she admitted she made a very horrible mistake.
> 
> Start helping her and stop insulting her.
> 
> 
> 
> People are trying to help. I haven't read any posts (didn't read them all though) that were mean spirited or cruel hearted toward the OP, but she has offered her story on the Internet and asked for advice... putting myself in the shoes of the poor neighbor, she's lucky he didn't come back outside with a gun and end the debate right there - as much as I love dogs, you let one bite me twice in my driveway and they'll be putting it in a bag to haul away.
> 
> The OP does not posess the self discipline and control necessary to guarantee it won't happen again. Already, while in fear of losing the dog, she is hedging her bets with "ifs" and "unless's". The best idea I've read is to give the dog to someone who can train and manage it.
> 
> I feel for the OP, very much, but she is being negligent and probably will again.
Click to expand...

Oh, lighten up. I think you really need to chill and accept the fact that this debate is OVER.
Way over. As in months old. Where have you been?
So you really FEEL for the OP?
Nice way to show it.


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## Hatterasser

Well, Thor and Freya met Rowansd, her husband and young son (lovely people, by the way), and though they were overly excited by all the new people and the appearance/presence of our outside cat, I can honestly say...nobody was chewed to pieces by Thor. He of course barked like a maniac when I closed him in the house away from all the fun, but that is normal for him. He barks at anything and everything...very vocal dog.

Kaitadog, we are waiting on the e-collar for the time being but I will check the closest freecycle if we decide to go ahead with it, though since the nearest freecycle is 125 miles away, it would probably cost me as much for gas and time as it would to just purchase it online. *smiles*

Gdog, I can tell you how the neighbor feels. He wrote a letter to the AC's _begging_ them to leave Thor with me, asking them to understand that Thor had initially seen a threat in his (the neighbor's) behavior when he waved a handful of branches at me. You should know that Thor had seen the neighbor on the same street dozens and dozens of times in the three previous years since Thor had come to live with me and there had never been any issues or problems prior to that day.

LedZep, you're correct - you haven't read all the posts. Ergo, you must have missed the parts where I mentioned that the neighbor came with me to the trainer's and he and Thor worked out their 'differences'. In fact, the neighbor was actually walking Thor by himself, with no problems at all. And there have been none since then on the occasions we've met on the street. Further, I also mentioned that it has taken me some time but I am finding my "alpha" self. I had never needed it before now so I'm learning as much from the training sessions as Thor is. I am not negligent nor is it something I take lightly. I am doing everything I can to correct the past errors .. and Thor and I are doing quite well, thank you very much for your concern. And what the heck is an 'OP'? 

Blitz_mom, would be very nice to see any visitor to the OBX, especially fellow GSD owners. Do you bring Blitz with you when you travel?

And Lucina, we still have to figure out a time to have our dogs "do lunch" together. Darn, I'll bet I pass right close to you once a week when I take my two up for training.

Thanks for those who have offered me good advice and ideas and for those who understand that mistakes happen....it's how you face those mistakes and grow from them. I am hardly ignoring them and as a result, Thor and I are both improving. We may not be perfect yet but we're both working towards that goal.


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## Qyn

> Originally Posted By: Hatterasser And what the heck is an 'OP'?


"OP" means the Original Poster, ie, the one starting the posted topic.


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## LedZep

> Originally Posted By: Hatterasser
> 
> LedZep, you're correct - you haven't read all the posts. Ergo, you must have missed the parts where I mentioned that the neighbor came with me to the trainer's and he and Thor worked out their 'differences'. In fact, the neighbor was actually walking Thor by himself, with no problems at all. And there have been none since then on the occasions we've met on the street. Further, I also mentioned that it has taken me some time but I am finding my "alpha" self. I had never needed it before now so I'm learning as much from the training sessions as Thor is. I am not negligent nor is it something I take lightly. I am doing everything I can to correct the past errors .. and Thor and I are doing quite well, thank you very much for your concern. And what the heck is an 'OP'?
> 
> .


Yep, If I had read all the posts I wouldn't have made all the same remarks... glad to hear things are working out for you and Thor. 

The reason a lot of people will have a strong critical opinion about these issues is because it is harmful to the already questionable reputation of GSD every time there are biting incidents. We may all pay the price with bans and insurance issues...


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## Cooper&me

LedZep
Do not feel TOO bad, I jumped to conclutions when I first started following Diane's oddesey. 

I have come to truely admire her for her commitment and dedication.

Big problem is she is truely one in a million. I think most pet owners are not respondsible enough in dealing with problems.


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## Mandalay

I agree. At first I was thinking the same thing as everyone else, which was "What kind of irresponsible yahoo would let their dog off leash near the house of the guy it first bit." 

Then I started thinking about all the half brained things I have done in my life and when I realized I had been thinking about these things for hours and hours and was no where near being done, I accepted it for what it is - a mistake that ANYONE could have made who has faith, love and trust in our dogs (or human companions for that matter). She had forgiven her dog and that usually means the act is forgotten as well...we are, after all, only human. 

I think the way she has handled it from that second bite forward has shown incredible responsibility and she deserves much respect for that. She took her love and her faith in her dog, found someone who could help her find that inner alpha-ness in her and the inner good-dog in her dog and went forward full force.

I also think the neighbor deserves a TON of respect. I do not know many people that would be willing to even talk to her let alone WORK with her to help her dog overcome whatever issues he has. 

I think this is a great story and I think its one that deserves being passed on the next time I hear of someone who has given up on their "bad, untrainable dog".


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## LedZep

Mandalay - well said.


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## 1PuppyPlus4

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereOK I'm going to say it. I advise you to rehome the dog to someone who will see that he is managed responsibly. You cannot, by your admission, afford to manage him responsibly (training with a professional). Your judgement is not good in regards to managing this dog so he needs to go to someone who will manage him.
> 
> I cannot begin to tell you how offended I would be at a nieghbor yelling at me to get back in my house because they had turned a dog that had recently bitten me loose near my house. Do you think the outcome of actions like this is going to be cheaper than driving to a trainer?
> 
> 
> As for Thor, he had Seamus move in and challenge him - he sees George as someone who needs to be bitten - and he is not well managed. That's what's "wrong" with Thor. I'd suggest you be in contact with Best Friends in Utah as a back up and then look for new homes for both Thor and Seamus if you do not have to have Thor euthanized.
> 
> This may sound harsh and it may be harsh but I've read the posts about Seamus and now I see this. These dogs are inappropriate for this environment.


I agree.


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## 1PuppyPlus4

> Originally Posted By: mjb03I cannot believe this happened TWICE!!
> This is why dog laws are passed. If dog owners were more respondsible then goverment would not have to be involved.
> I know I am being harsh but your dog already bit. What were you doing training without control??????
> I know after the fact is easy to see what went wrong and I truely am sorry for everything.
> Can you imagine poor George. Attacked twice. Not safe in his own home?


LOL, you guys never disappoint....

The OP felt horrible enough that this happened and came to the members of this board to ask for help, yet in almost everybody's post even after the OP's SECOND post saying she realized that she was wrong and used poor judgment -- there are those that still want (NEED) to continue to beat her down. Then there are those that have given some great advice which is what I am sure the OP was looking for and really, really needs: support and advice -- not continual condemnation.

When I was a new GSD owner, I used to visit this Forum many times a day to seek advice from many a knowledgeable person here. I have to say that I got some great advice from MaggieRoseLee and ChrisWild and others. I eventually stopped posting because rather than being given advice, myself and others were criticized for actions that already had happened and the original question and concern was never answered. Too bad I've been made to feel that I can no longer come here to get support and advice with my issues and concerns. Primarily because there are those that continually have the need to tell someone how wrong and stupid their actions were as if they were the personification of perfection themselves.

Sorry to rant, but this type of behavior - in my opinion - keeps people away from this Forum. And, that's too bad because there are some great people here............. and there are some that just aren't.

Right now as a matter of fact – I have a huge problem with one of my dogs. I came only to read if someone else had a similar problem as I do. I’m no longer comfortable coming here to get help, and that’s because I now feel people here will criticize rather than help me. Perhaps even the moderators will read this post and figure that it violates some TOS rule – rather than see the bigger picture of how most of the threads on this forum, with corresponding critical, holier than thou responses – keep people who really need help away.

I'm so very happy that the situation worked out well for the OP and Kudos to George for showing strength, patience, and courage. He had faith in a dog and worked with the owner to help correct the problem - an animal lover in the basest form. Congratulations and many many high 5's there:

1PuppyPlus4


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## jarn

am i the only person who finds your 12.42 post to be slightly at odds with your 12.54 post?


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## ceardach

> Originally Posted By: 1PuppyPlus4I eventually stopped posting because rather than being given advice, myself and others were criticized for actions that already had happened and the original question and concern was never answered. Too bad I've been made to feel that I can no longer come here to get support and advice with my issues and concerns. Primarily because there are those that continually have the need to tell someone how wrong and stupid their actions were as if they were the personification of perfection themselves.


Sorry to derail this thread (but considering it's severe age, I think it's OK), but this is somewhat how the internet is.

Actually, it's probably more of how people are. I meet more people on the internet than I do in person. Not just quantity, but variety. In persevering through the difficulties of holding a conversation online in a forum, I have discovered how to deal with people in person a little better. 

Miscommunication, misconceptions, "half hearing", etc, are all common phenomena that occurs both online and offline. Often people are acting in what they think is the best thing, altruistically. It then becomes an issue of who thinks what is correct - can you really moderate that? It's hard. The best moderation is minimal moderation.

This board is actually pretty good, which is why I participate. _Yes_, people are going to harp on me on what they think I'm doing is wrong, or harp on me based on incomplete information. But thats OK, I can weed them out - at least I don't have to have them harp in my face!









I find formulating questions properly (albeit wordy) extremely helpful. Knowing what are "hot topics" and diffusing them and directing people to the real question at hand is helpful. 

And lastly, I've discovered you can't change the community by asking them to - you do it by example, and if people like it, they follow your example, and eventually it takes over as the new community standard. Asking for change almost inevitably is greeted with disdain.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote: When I was a new GSD owner, I used to visit this Forum many times a day to seek advice from many a knowledgeable person here. I have to say that I got some great advice from MaggieRoseLee and ChrisWild and others. I eventually stopped posting because rather than being given advice, myself and others were criticized for actions that already had happened and the original question and concern was never answered. Too bad I've been made to feel that I can no longer come here to get support and advice with my issues and concerns. Primarily because there are those that continually have the need to tell someone how wrong and stupid their actions were as if they were the personification of perfection themselves.


This site is supposed to be an open forum to ALL members to post and feel free to do so. While we do all have to get a bit of a thick skin because the written word makes it hard to get expression and intent fit in (added to the fact some of us are in a rush when we try to post) and take everything with a grain of salt.......

There ARE rules on the site that are meant to be followed. *But you members have to help!* As one of the busiest forums on the entire internet, and all the Admins/Moderators unpaid and with real jobs and lives (







) we do miss things. If you feel a topic is going astray and the rules are getting broken, under each and every posting there is a 'notify' button that whizzes a message to the Moderators for that area. And if you send some additional PM's to try to catch even more of us we can start looking into the matter even sooner.


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## 1PuppyPlus4

> Originally Posted By: jarnam i the only person who finds your 12.42 post to be slightly at odds with your 12.54 post?


''My second post pretty much explains why and how often I get over here.

Stay on topic will ya???


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## jsmurray31

I think they are on topic - they were referring to the first post where you agree with some "harsh" words, but your second is about how unhelpful this board can be. I, too am confused.

I also have had issues with my male shepherd becoming aggressive......this board was EXTREMELY helpful and things are almost back to normal at my house.

No one is attacking, we are just confused.


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## Hatterasser

Just some thoughts............

It has been over 40 years since I owned a GSD and the one I owned then was the sweetest, easiest going, clown of a dog who took nothing to train but a word (or it seems that way in my memory). 

Then 3 years plus ago I rescued Thor from a neglectful, poor environment. He came with all kinds of problems I had never encountered in dogs I've owned over the years. He is full of angst (which has an immediate affect on his bowls that become runny and loose at the slightest disturbance), is extraordinarily touchy and sensitive, has horrendous hip dysplasia (was certified at less than a year) and is an absolute whiny baby. He's also the laziest dog (especially for a GSD....no drive at all) and faces each training session with a huge sigh and mid way through, tends to look at me with an "Aren't we done yet?" look.

In addition, he has tons of allergies. Currently the middle of his tale is fur-free where he has chewed it off and what's left of his tail is gruesomely raw and ugly. We've just returned from the vets' office (AGAIN!!!) where he got a steroid shot and another bottle of anti-biotics...and I was so hoping not to have to see my wonderful vets again until late autumn.

So with all these minor aggravations, why would I bother to expose myself to more from some of (how did you put it, 1PuppyPlus4?) those "holier than thou" folks that consider themselves the "personification of perfection"? *chuckling* Primarily because I don't know as much as I need to know about homing a dog like Thor, with all his issues, and there are many on this site that DO HELP. Granted, it means I have to expose my incredible stupidity, give up my pride and that feeling of 'control', and explain with as much honesty as I can what the problems are.

And I have to admit....it's SCARY doing this. But what I receive in exchange is helpful advice, a lot of support and truly caring folks who want the best for any and all of our assorted and sundry dogs. I realize that when threads get really long, many are too busy to read all the posts and therefore make their judgements on the earliest ones, missing entirely the improvements or the updates.

And to update you all (just an amusing highlight actually) George (who I cannot respect and love more for his brilliant understanding and kindness) came down the driveway the other day. We stopped to talk and Thor glanced at him, sniffed his hand, then lost all interest...turned his head towards the beach where he really wanted to go. *grins* 

Thor is doing well in training....still follows the 'sit' command sloooooooooowly and carefully, though we think it's due to his hips since he does everything else with alacrity. I work with him during our walks so it's not just at the training sessions that he is learning and he does just as well then too. 

I think much of his problems came from his lack of socialization. Certainly he had none during the first year of his life. But in hindsight, he's had little during the past 3 years with me either. I lived alone, until recently when my daughter moved back home, and he and I rarely went out other than for walks. Training camp has been great for him. He's meeting people and dogs, getting used to being exposed to people surrounding me and him, and hardly notices anymore. I noticed how much better he was when the other day, we came around the S curve right into a group of cyclists. I gave him the 'heel' command, told him 'leave it' when he showed a tad too much interest, and he behaved beautifully. They rode on past and he walked at my side without issue. I was soooooooo proud of him. 

My inner-alpha is growing, I don't give commands 'softly' anymore. He obeys at once or he gets an immediate correction and a stern command from mama. But he still loves me and I still love him. And George is happily safe. *laughing*

So to all you guys who have been there for me, know this::::because of all your good advice and support, Thor will soon be getting his CGC certificate. You can all pat yourselves on the back. As for the rest that wanted him put down, rehomed, or any other alternative, tough muffins. He and I are doing just fine, thank you very much. *grins*


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## jsmurray31

Congratulations to you and Thor! You both have come a long way!!!!


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## rowansd

Hi Diane, sorry about Thor's allergies, that can't feel nice at all! 
But I am glad to hear that things with him are going so well. Good for you for sticking with it and evolving as a dog owner.


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## scannergirl

What more is there to say?
We all could learn a lot from you, lady!!!
I would not have had the guts to take on what you did. Yet you did, asked for help when needed, and kept trying and now look at the results.


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