# Does this look like ringworm?lick granuloma?(MCT)



## Gunnarsmum

I noticed Gunner had a fresh wound on his foot yesterday.. I dont know if its ringworm or not as I've never seen it on a dog before. Its kind of raised and it looks like he's been licking it. I was going to buy fungal cream to put on it, then wrap it so he can't touch it just incase it is ringworm. He hasn't been able to get into anything here and he hasn't left our property to get into anything either. Here are pictures.


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## Sashmom

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

ringworm is usually different looking....Ive seen it on humans, It actually does look like a ring shape. 
I dont know what it would look like in canines though. 
Have you done a search on the net on ringworm in canines? Usually they have lots of articles


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## LisaT

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

If it's raised, I would consider that a lump or bump. Unless someone knows better, I would be at the vet's, cuz lumps and bumps concern me. 

I am always concerned about mast cell tumors because that is what Indy had. They can come in a variety of shapes, sizes and appearances. If you google "mast cell tumor" and look under google images, you will see lots of pictures. For the most part, the vet can tell in the office if it's this, by doing a quick needle biopsy.


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## Spiritsmam

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

Looks to me like there's been some trauma that has pulled out some of the fur, and Gunner has started licking at it. I would clean it, wrap it and keep a close eye on it.


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## Mandalay

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

I googled ringworm and looked at the pictures and they dont look as bright red as his lesions appear to be. I'd give it a day and if it is no better I'd make a trip to the vet Tuesday.


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## jaggirl47

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

I would go to the vet and have it checked out. That way, they can rule out ringworm and anything else.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

It looks like an injury to me but if you go to the vet you'll know that it's nothing more than that. 

And I would put calendula cream on it because that's what I put on everything.







Seriously, if it is an injury that will help it heal faster.


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## jfisher

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

I had Chris check it out and he said it looks like a lick granuloma, and he wouldn't think ringworm.

Here's a link about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lick_granuloma

-Jackie


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

I don't think he's obsessive compulsive.. I'd say stress due to the fact that we're preparing for a cross country move but I'm going to be extra pro active in making sure it doesn't become a disorder. I have a picture of him on 9/4 and it isn't there. I put peroxide and iodine on it and wrapped it. How can I be sure he doesn't lick it at night? Should I get him a cone?


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## pupresq

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

I'm with Lisa - I think it looks like a mass. I would be hesitant to put anything on it or to keep it covered until you have a definitive diagnosis. I think you need trip to the vet.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

Here's a picture of a lick granuloma: http://www.dogexplorer.com/dog/index.php?topic=420.msg1035

It looks the part and with the stress factor it sounds the part too. The trick is getting under control before it becomes a habit. 

Aloe vera will relieve the itch but calendula with hypericum will relieve the itch/pain and help it heal. Vitamin E will also help. My friend's dog had one exactly like this. She used Vit. E in the morning and calendula/hypericum in the evening and it healed up in about a week and he stopped bothering with it too.


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## WiscTiger

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

DeeDee had a lick granuloma on her back leg. I didn't put any thing on it other than to get keep and eye on it that it didn't get infected. She was to me so when every I saw/heard her licking I would just tell her to leave it. Once if got healed up and the hair was back, then she never bothered it again.

Val


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

Thank you all for your input! DH wants me to take him to the vet tomorrow morning as a precaution so thats where we'll be headed bright and early. I've nominated family members to help with the packing and everything so I can spend more one on one with him before the move. He didnt bother it last night and attempted to lick at it once today but other than that he's left it alone. We'll see what the vet says tomorrow. I'll keep you all updated.


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## LisaT

*Re: Does this look like ringworm?*

Let us know how the vet visit goes! I hope it's just a lick granuloma.


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## Gunnarsmum

*Its a mast cell tumor..*

To remove or not to remove?

The vet gave me some stuff to put on it. She said to scrub it to keep a scab off and it should heal if he leaves it alone. He got a cone too.







DH wants to get it removed. I'm all for whatever will work. Can a mast cell tumor become cancerous?? Is there even a chance of it getting better? We're moving in 10 days if all goes as planned. Would it be best to just have it removed now than later? I'd rather do it before we leave for various reasons. I'm looking for input to help sway me one way or another as I've never been down this road before..


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## windwalker718

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

I'd get it done now... mostly because you know and trust the vet. Even if it healed over for now, it could break down later. Gunner is a youngster... I've a 12 year old Bassett with one, which we've chosen not to have surgery on. #1 because we don't trust the anesthesia with a dog that age, and #2 because it doesnt' seem to bother her at all. She has a "jacket" to wear when she goes outdoors to keep it clean, and I wash it 2X a day to be sure that there's no 2ndary infection setting in. We did Biopsy, and it wasn't cancerous @ that time, and has not changed in appearance since then. (I also have some exp with them as a Vet Tech so am making an informed decision) If Jezz were a younger dog I'd not hesitate to have it removed.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Wow--thank goodness you had it checked by the vet! I would have it removed ASAP and at that time they can biopsy it and you will know exactly what you're dealing with. 

It's good that you noticed it so soon!


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## kshort

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*



> Quote:Can a mast cell tumor become cancerous??


There is some good information in these links:

http://www.vetsurgerycentral.com/mct.htm

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2096&aid=461

I agree with the others. I would have it removed as soon as possible. They can grow very quickly. The grading of the tumor is critical and will tell you what you're dealing with.


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

We were also thinking of getting him neutered at the same time. Can vets do that?


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## pupresq

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

I am SO glad you got it checked out!!! This is why it always worries me when people post different suggestions via the Internet without a definitive diagnosis. Thanks for taking your pup to the vet to be sure.

My experience with mast cell tumors is that you definitely want to remove them - with as wide a margin around them as possible. I'm a bit surprised at the advice to scrub the tumor, as my understanding is that the main thing you don't want to do is to antagonize the tumor and stimulate it to release histimines. But I'm not an expert on them. 

Still - my inclination would be to remove it and as much tissue around it as you can (legs are tricky unfortunately). I would also want to do some more research and make sure my vet was giving me the best advice possible. Mast cell tumors can be removed and never come back - completely curative, or they can become quite nasty cancers. Early diagnosis and correct treatment can be key in determining which. If I'm remembering this correctly, sometimes the vet may even have you put the dog on antihistimines prior to the surgery to minimize the chance of mets.

For what it's worth - my Golden had one on her leg when she was 6 or 7 years old, we had it removed, it never came back and she lived to be 13, so they're definitely often quite treatable.


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

This is what we're working with today...  We're getting it removed. I don't want to scrub it if its going to make the tumor worse. I'll just get it removed to ease my mind a little.


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

I was really hoping that it wouldn't be a MCT. I believe that most (all???) of the time they are cancerous, but hopefully since you caught it right away, removal will resolve it. I would have to reread what stage 1 means, if it can be a pre-cancerous condition. 

Mast cell tumors can be the worst of cancers and the best of cancers - they can be deadly, and in other cases, surgery, with wide margins, can be curative. Indy is 2 yrs post her tumor removal - her thread is up in the health sticky (hers developed from a wasp sting). Certain areas of the body can be more difficult to get the margins the surgeon will want.

I would put him on tagamet asap. I'll see if I can remember the protocol that I put together for Indy. You can also apply a warm green tea compress to it.


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## LJsMom

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*



> Originally Posted By: LisaT Indy is 2 yrs post her tumor removal - her thread is up in the health sticky (hers developed from a wasp sting).


Gunnersmum, here's a link to Indy's thread

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=442265&page=17#Post442265


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Thanks Joanne. 

I was just reading one of the links above that said most MCT are grade 1. I haven't noticed that on the boards, but that would be a smaller sample. I hope that grade 1 is the case here!

What is important in the pathology report, in addition to clean margins, is the number that they give the mitotic figure, which is a measure of the aggressiveness of the tumor - probably only relevant in grade II or above. . 

I'm sure he will be fine once this comes off. I'm so sorry though, it's very scary


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

I wanted to add, probably one reason it looks a bit like a lick granuloma is because it releases histamine and that's bothersome, so they lick it. Indy licked hers a lot before it was taken out.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Thread 1: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1192644

Yikes-is it for sure-regardless, I would want that thing OFF and sent to the lab to make sure it's not histiocytosis (or even histiocytoma-which I think is the good one) or whatever-and to confirm the diagnosis. 

Boy-he's young isn't he for something like that or doesn't that matter?

Yes, I am sure they can neuter and do that at the same time. 

Just make sure it's sent out for testing. 

So glad you took him to the vet.


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Gunnersmum,

I know that a lot of these are removed and there are no problems with them after that. 

I'm a bit worried because of the where it is at -- it might be hard to get clean margins. With Indy, though they got clean margins, the vet said that they weren't the recommended amount, but she couldn't do any better because of the location.

If you are thinking of trying a few things, here are some ideas. I did put Indy on benadryl before and after the surgery. It is supposed to help with the side effects of the tumor, but it's not a cancer fighter: http://www.dogcancerblog.com/?s=benadryl



Things that I would do both before and after the surgery.....you would have to be a bit carful if there are any autoimmune system problems (including pannus).



*tagamet:*
http://www.lef.org/LEFCMS/aspx/PrintVersionMagic.aspx?CmsID=77512
http://www.lef.org/LEFCMS/aspx/PrintVersionMagic.aspx?CmsID=77534
http://www.lef.org/LEFCMS/aspx/PrintVersionMagic.aspx?CmsID=114810
Most vets seem to use something like Pepcid to help the stomach with histamine release. With the tagamet, you get not only the stomach relief, but also a powerful cancer fighter. Very few people seem to know about the cancer fighting ability of tagamet. It may not be the best at reducing stomach acid, but it is very powerful. I've used it on Indy a couple of times, and had to stop because it boosted her lyme vaccine issues.

*spirulina:*
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9605430
I just put some of the powder in her food. I am also using it now as a kidney protector with her heart meds. It will boost the immune system.

Apparently there is a homeopathic protocol for cancer that develops at the site of a sting, so we did that too.

Other stuff here:
http://www.dogcancerblog.com/mast-cells-and-luteolin-in-cancer-treatment-part-1/

I also did some things for allergies, like put the MSM back in the diet, and added bioflavanoids, I think I started with the vitamin C then too, and there is more here:

http://www.ourdogsonline.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/134206/Re_Mast_Cell_Tumors

A good overview:
http://www.kateconnick.com/library/mastcelltumor.html

I am sorry that you all are going through this.


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## Myamom

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Oh gosh...wishing you the best outcome with this!

Just a little bit of advice...from my experience anyway. Make sure you guage your vet's experience with things like this. In our case...after Mya's needle biopsy came back positive....resection with wide margins and biopsy was recommended. The vet I initially saw said "if money is an issue...I can attempt this here...or I can send you to a specialist". While having Mya take out her own credit card was certainly not appealing...the first option was even more unsettling to me. We did go to the specialist...and to me...it was the best move we ever made. His confidence, knowledge and expertise in these cases certainly put us at ease..that we were in the best hands possible. 

Lots of prayers being said for good results!


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## shilohsmom

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

I didn't get a chance to post yesterday but came back today to see how your doing and let you know your in my thoughts and prayers.


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

We thank all of you for your kind words and helpful posts!

Lisa, I'll be buying the stuff you recommended as well as switching their food from Nutro to something of better quality.

He has surgery tomorrow at 10am so I'll be able to update you guys after he gets home.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Good luck with the surgery--we'll keep Gunner in our thoughts!


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Yep will be looking for an update. I just saw this today and I do hope surgery is successful (it will be!)


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## SuzyE

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

thinking about you!


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## Spiritsmam

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Sorry to hear about the diagnosis. Glad to hear that you're getting it removed, as MCT are definitely cancerous and if greater than a Grade I, generally carry a not great prognosis.... BUT ... My 12 year old Lab, Duncan, had a MCT removed from his neck (caused by a dog bite) last year. His was a grade II/III (the pathologists were on the fence about which they should call it) and was given a <6 month chance of survival. Thankfully Duncan doesn't speak English nor read journals and textbooks, so is now a year out without recurrence - he is classed as "cured".

Like Lisa did, Duncan was on Benedryl and also Prednisone prior to and after surgery in case the tumour was disturbed during the procedure and released a large amount of histamine.

Crossing my fingers that your vet can get clean margins in all planes, and waiting to hear updates soon.


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## jaggirl47

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*





























Sending love and thoughts your way! Let us know how surgery went.


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

What did the vet give you to put on it?

I'm glad that the surgery is so soon - you'll feel a lot better when that's off of there. The hard part will be waiting. 

Like indy and Duncan, lots of examples of these things being okay in the long run. I'll be holding my breath right alongside you guys until we hear word.


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

She gave me animax to put on it. Not sure for what?

Surgery in 12 hours. I foresee myself getting no sleep tonight.


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## jaggirl47

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Try to get some sleep and we will be praying for you two.


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## JenM66

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*








GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get some sleep.


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*



> Originally Posted By: GunnersmumShe gave me animax to put on it. Not sure for what?


Makes no sense, but I don't think it can hurt at all.

Did the vet say to give any benadryl? I would give some tonight. I think for the surgery, they will give him a shot.


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

They didn't say to give him anything prior to surgery. I bought the benedryl though. How many should I give him?


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

The vet had Indy (33 lbs) on 25 mg twice a day before the surgery and after. I would give him twice that.

During the surgery, they did give a shot of benadryl and pred, and I was continue that after the surgery. 

I wasn't so sure about the pred, as I have such an aversion to it, but I kept her on it initially. My plan was to keep her on it until we got the pathology report back. I don't remember if I did or not. I do remember tapering her off pretty quickly and instead putting her on high doses of the CMO cetyl myristoleate instead. There was some weird reason why I did that at the time.

Be sure to get some rest


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Thinking of you guys this morning....


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## Gunnarsmum

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Everything went well! They started at 11 and I picked him up at 1:30.. They're going to send it off for biopsy. They also said that they got clean margins so more than likely successful! Heres his stitches...


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## LisaT

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Yippee for clean margins!!























I bet you feel a lot better now


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## kshort

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

YAY - glad that nasty thing is off there! And thrilled that they think they got clean margins!


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## Spiritsmam

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

So glad they could remove the tumour, and crossing fingers that the histopathology report comes back clear. 

I hate to be a downer here, but I need to give a word of caution ... your vet got MACROSCOPICALLY clean margins, i.e. they were able to remove all the tumour that they could see. What is really important with MCT are MICROSCOPIC margins, i.e are there any cells that extend to the cut margins (length width and depth). This you will only know when the biopsy results come back. 

Hoping that you get a clean report soon.


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## JenM66

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

That doesn't look too bad. Glad it's over and he's home. Now the hard part - waiting for results.


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## Kayos and Havoc

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Hoping for a negative on the biopsy.


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## BowWowMeow

*Re: Its a mast cell tumor..*

Glad the surgery went well and putting in my good thoughts for a good biopsy report!


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