# How did your teach your dog the competition heel and why?



## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

This is one thing I have not been able to train my dog yet. He walks pretty much right by my side without pulling with the "let's go" command that I taught him with a prong on, which is great for casual walks. However, I really want to teach him the focused/competition heel that I see in Schutzhund/IPO trials. I just can't seem to figure out which method works best for him. His "out" still isn't 100%, so I'm only using food rewards for training for now. He isn't very good motivated, but I've found that if I withold half his meal and use the food engagement tips from Michael Ellis's Advanced Concepts in Motivation dvd, he will work for food. I want to know what methods other people have used, and why or why not they worked or didn't work for your dog specifically.

These are the most common methods I've found:
Free shaping with a target such as as paper plate
Luring with a target such as a paper plate
Luring without a target

And how long did it take your dog to learn the behavior? Thank you!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I hold a ball under my arm. Start be having him sit next to me. I say my command. He looks up, i drop the ball. 

As soon as he knows to look at me, I take a step. 
Then progress from there.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

A target on the ground isn't what I would do. That would draw attention to the ground, away from you. Its probably the same as Cloud, but to use a toy as a target on you, the dog has to really want the toy and learn to maintain controlled focus on it to get it. It was a little over 2 mos before I ever took a step, but this is the basic sequence of what I did. It all begins with that capping in an attentive sit, and then I step into position. Later on you add drills where he finds the position.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> A target on the ground isn't what I would do. That would draw attention to the ground, away from you. Its probably the same as Cloud, but to use a toy as a target on you, the dog has to really want the toy and learn to maintain controlled focus on it to get it. It was a little over 2 mos before I ever took a step, but this is the basic sequence of what I did. It all begins with that capping in an attentive sit, and then I step into position. Later on you add drills where he finds the position.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2axsIrtXV2Q


I'm not pretty like you to make a video


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## Misha111 (Oct 31, 2016)

Reading this thread, I had a 'doh' moment. Have been trying to lure my pup into position but as she will sell her soul for play and a ball, definitely going to change my approach.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> I'm not pretty like you to make a video


Careful, don't go commenting on my structure now. Appreciate the dog! Lol.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

So the general consensus seems to be to teach the dog the "sit at my left side" position, then walking forward, and then introute pivots and finding the position? Most of the videos I've watched and articles I've read started out teaching the dog to keep it's head up and pivot on a target, then find the position, then pivot with you, and then walk forward, backward, to the sides, increase distance, etc. Has no one else done this method, or does teaching the position first seem to work better?


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

*then introduce pivots...

Won't let me edit post on my phone


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> A target on the ground isn't what I would do. That would draw attention to the ground, away from you. Its probably the same as Cloud, but to use a toy as a target on you, the dog has to really want the toy and learn to maintain controlled focus on it to get it. It was a little over 2 mos before I ever took a step, but this is the basic sequence of what I did. It all begins with that capping in an attentive sit, and then I step into position. Later on you add drills where he finds the position.
> [/quote]
> We are working on that no...ch it and get away from me so I can't Aus it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Irregardless of how you begin movement, your dog needs to understand the position and be able to maintain the focus. I didn't exactly work on pivoting till a lot later and I did it sort of like an extension of left boxes and left circles.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> We are working on that now by ourselves. Your video showed me what I'm doing wrong. I introduced fuss right away and he could not control himself. He wanted the ball immediately. Our trainer has us working more in drive than we used to, but for this, I need to go back to capping for calm attention. Why do you put the toy on your shoulder before releasing it? How do you keep him from moving from position to grab the toy? Mine wants to catch it and get away from me so I can't Aus it.


Putting the ball on my shoulder does 2 things. Its a reminder of not coming up for the ball till he has permission because its the same way I released it to him without heeling and later on when I have the ball in my pocket or out of sight or even leave it on the ground he'll still expect it to appear there if he keeps looking at my shoulder. 

You teach him he can't take the toy until you tell him he can. That capping in the sit and making him hold the sit till you release and drop the toy with an obvious opening of your hand is one way, but even just tugging, making him pause after an out and rebite on command will help. Keep him on a leash so he never gets the idea of playing keep away.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Putting the ball on my shoulder does 2 things. Its a reminder of not coming up for the ball till he has permission because its the same way I released it to him without heeling and later on when I have the ball in my pocket or out of sight or even leave it on the ground he'll still expect it to appear there if he keeps looking at my shoulder.
> 
> You teach him he can't take the toy until you tell him he can. That capping in the sit and making him hold the sit till you release and drop the toy with an obvious opening of your hand is one way, but even just tugging, making him pause after an out and rebite on command will help. Keep him on a leash so he never gets the idea of playing keep away.


Got it. Your shoulder is near your face so if he's looking up there, he's also looking at you. How did you decide he was ready to take a step? You take one step each time. When do you move from one step to a full heel?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

He just expects the toy to always come on that line. I only look at him briefly here and there. I'm not looking for eye contact. Once he could focus in drive, for probably 30 seconds or so I started one or 2 steps. It was probably 6mos before I started moving out actually heeling.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Got it. Your shoulder is near your face so if he's looking up there, he's also looking at you. How did you decide he was ready to take a step? You take one step each time. When do you move from one step to a full heel?


Actually, it looks like at 1 year I was still working on position with slow steps, halting, that kind of thing, and then a couple months later I started moving out more. Trying to get my footwork better too.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Also doing a lot of pedestal or box work to teach rear end awareness will make the transition to movement much easier.
If I notice the dog swinging out or in I'll go back to the box and it straightens it right out.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Also doing a lot of pedestal or box work to teach rear end awareness will make the transition to movement much easier.
> If I notice the dog swinging out or in I'll go back to the box and it straightens it right out.


Interesting. When I started luring into position with my male, I used hand placement and mirrors to control the back end.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

We train in Mondioring, attention heel isn't required, I did it with my Mal just for fun. 

My Mal had no toy/prey drive as a puppy (her prey drive turned on when she was 17 months old) so I had to use food for all of her foundation training. 

I made this video a while back, it shows her progression from a young puppy to 2 years of age.....


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > Also doing a lot of pedestal or box work to teach rear end awareness will make the transition to movement much easier.
> ...


You are correct. hand placement can push the dogs behind in or out. And mirrors are great tools to be able to see what your dog is doing. I used food and luring to first teach position. Doing rear end awareness on the box seemed to make something click for them. Like hey, I can move with him while keeping my position and focus. sometimes they still seem to forget that they can control their back ends. Or have no rear end awareness. So if I notice they are starting to swing either way well do a couple sessions on the box with treats and they're like. Oh yeah, I have Got to pay attention to that also. But thinking about it I am also using hand placement to keep them in line while on the box.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I start it in pieces. I work focus first. Getting the dog to look at me in various position. Next to me, in front of me, between my legs and so on. I will sometimes use a wall or barrier to keep the dog straight. Still no movement. 

In another session, I work perch work to teach some rear end awareness. Spinning around a bowl and so on. I will sometimes use a square on the ground and get the dog to pivot around that. 

Then a different session, I work luring. Depending on the dog, this can be done with toy or food. Then I slowly start fading out the lure. 

With some softer less drivey dogs, I have taught it with a pinch or choke chain. First starting with loose leash walking, then working the focus by popping up towards my face. When they look, big release and praise. Continue this until they get it. 

This is Areli as a baby. You can see in the video, I've already started all those pieces. 




I don't have any current video, but here are a couple pictures of her from a week or two ago. You can see the progression
21731241_1901168576867899_5091653692172802397_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
21462869_1901167256868031_6673750928549287646_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
21462724_1901168406867916_7945332898907319603_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr
21433120_1897678903883533_2913241391083318448_n by Jeremy Friedman, on Flickr


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I also work stupid sessions like this for their meals. This is Kimber,


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Putting the ball on my shoulder does 2 things. Its a reminder of not coming up for the ball till he has permission because its the same way I released it to him without heeling and later on when I have the ball in my pocket or out of sight or even leave it on the ground he'll still expect it to appear there if he keeps looking at my shoulder.
> 
> You teach him he can't take the toy until you tell him he can. That capping in the sit and making him hold the sit till you release and drop the toy with an obvious opening of your hand is one way, but even just tugging, making him pause after an out and rebite on command will help. Keep him on a leash so he never gets the idea of playing keep away.


I notice he stays in position as you place the ball on your shoulder with your right hand. I see other dogs, mine included that'll wrap around a bit in anticipation and thus their rear end will move out along with that. Our trainer had me use my left hand for reward which helped, but I'm guessing the capping is another piece I'm missing?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Nigel said:


> I notice he stays in position as you place the ball on your shoulder with your right hand. I see other dogs, mine included that'll wrap around a bit in anticipation and thus their rear end will move out along with that. Our trainer had me use my left hand for reward which helped, but I'm guessing the capping is another piece I'm missing?



A leash can be your friend in this. Keeping the dog back. If the dog is wrapping, then move the ball/toy further back in the armpit, and all rewards go back and left.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

What do you all use as a target? Or box? That's what I meant by a target- a target for their front two feet for them to pivot on. Everything I've tried seems to be too small or too big, and slides around on the grass/kitchen floor/concrete. My dog just never seems to "get" the concept of putting his front two paws on it either 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Tulip said:


> What do you all use as a target? Or box? That's what I meant by a target- a target for their front two feet for them to pivot on. Everything I've tried seems to be too small or too big, and slides around on the grass/kitchen floor/concrete. My dog just never seems to "get" the concept of putting his front two paws on it either
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


I use a rubber bowl. Like one used for grain for horses, about 12 inches in diameter. Smaller works as well.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Tulip said:


> What do you all use as a target? Or box? That's what I meant by a target- a target for their front two feet for them to pivot on. Everything I've tried seems to be too small or too big, and slides around on the grass/kitchen floor/concrete. My dog just never seems to "get" the concept of putting his front two paws on it either
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk


I knew what you meant, but I don't think it would be any help to you right now. Swinging his rear is easy enough later.I think you need more drive and focus right now.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nigel said:


> I notice he stays in position as you place the ball on your shoulder with your right hand. I see other dogs, mine included that'll wrap around a bit in anticipation and thus their rear end will move out along with that. Our trainer had me use my left hand for reward which helped, but I'm guessing the capping is another piece I'm missing?


Yeah, the capping, a very clear release to take get the reward, and like Myco said, the leash. Over time they learn to orient themselves to your body and they just know the reward comes right there. Consistent rewarding from a place, left shoulder in heel, under your chin in front. After enough reps in correct position, your hands don't matter that much.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Did you notice something in the different videos Tulip? We all used similar things a little differently to fit our dogs. San makes it pretty clear how she adapted to fit her dog. That may be whats giving you some problems, trying to make your dog fit into something that's not going to work for him.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

Well that's why I was asking everyone how they trained their dogs, so I can get an idea of each little variation and see which one would work best for my dog. I'm thinking I'll probably just have to make a video and ask for advice that way. Thank you all for the responses!

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

In addition to "how" you also asked "why". I haven't taught any of my dogs a focused competition heel because I have no need of that. Instead, I've taught a polite loose leash walk. 

Is it something you need, due to a venue you wish to compete in?


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Looking at Steves time line on his videos I think I may have moved too fast as well. Should have laid a better foundation for each step.

Another method for keeping the dogs attention I've seen people at the club use is spitting out the treat/reward from their mouth. Have not tried this, but it seems to work for them. Talking to someone with a mouthful of cheese cubes or hotdogs is a bit awkward though.


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## Tulip (Jul 31, 2012)

I asked why because I wanted to know what method worked for everyone's dogs. Like, say your dog is super bouncy and food motivated so used this method. Or maybe your dog is calm and not very motivated, so you used this other method.
I would like to compete him in Schutzhund. I don't know if we'll ever make it to a competition, but I enjoy a challenge in training him because I'm wanting to be a dog trainer and so I just love teaching my dogs as many things as possible and giving us both a challenge.

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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Actually, it looks like at 1 year I was still working on position with slow steps, halting, that kind of thing, and then a couple months later I started moving out more. Trying to get my footwork better too.


I have taken a step back and I'm working exactly as you do. Rolling the ball off my shoulder keeps him from jumping up because he learned right away once it goes to my shoulder, he will get it. He's not quite sure what to do with the tug. He is so used to spitting it out, he is grabbing and dropping it before I say anything. It's working, though. I get perfect fuss position but I had to go back to using a Place box to get him sitting at my left side. I have a removable top, so I am using only the top because it is flush with the ground instead of elevated.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

cdwoodcox said:


> Also doing a lot of pedestal or box work to teach rear end awareness will make the transition to movement much easier.
> If I notice the dog swinging out or in I'll go back to the box and it straightens it right out.


Mine will not rotate on the box. Instead, I use it for position.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> cdwoodcox said:
> 
> 
> > Also doing a lot of pedestal or box work to teach rear end awareness will make the transition to movement much easier.
> ...


All of my dogs will rotate with me on the box. My youngest Apollo has the best rear end awareness and movement. But he started off doing perch work the youngest. I remember reading that puppies are easier to teach than older dogs. I have been going back to box work, heeling with treats, corrections for breaking focus, front recalls with treats, sits and downs in motion this week with treats. I have two dogs going for a BH this weekend and wanna tidy things up.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> I have taken a step back and I'm working exactly as you do. Rolling the ball off my shoulder keeps him from jumping up because he learned right away once it goes to my shoulder, he will get it. He's not quite sure what to do with the tug. He is so used to spitting it out, he is grabbing and dropping it before I say anything. It's working, though. I get perfect fuss position but I had to go back to using a Place box to get him sitting at my left side. I have a removable top, so I am using only the top because it is flush with the ground instead of elevated.


At this point, that's the purpose of you moving into position once he's sitting with attention.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

A little luring with my puppy. Second time moving. I want her to get used to being in position and will clean up as she gets older


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## girardid (Aug 13, 2015)

food a clicker and a rubber bowl. https://www.instagram.com/p/BTruR1_gBsi/?taken-by=domenik.and.mile


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