# Breed specific puppy food?



## ls1norcal (Oct 16, 2008)

I've been feeding my dog Royal Canin Puppy food for German Shepherds mainly because thats what the breeder was feeding him, and from my research, it was a decent food. I just now found out that it has corn and wheat flour in it, which are not desirable ingredients. It does NOT list these ingredients on the website, but it has them on the bag.

Im looking into Innova puppy food for large breeds. My pup is nipping at himself lately, and has red dots on his belly and some dry skin there too. I suspect its food allergies? He definitely does not have fleas.

Is there any advantage to going with a breed specific food, or is it all basically a scam?


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

I tried the Royal Canin GSD food a while back and my dogs did poorly on it. Their coat was dry and they just looked unthrifty. I also used to petsit for some GSDs that were eating that food, they all had itchy skin and were constantly eating their own poop. I am not impressed with it.

I have heard a lot of good things about Innova, however it was a bit much for my dogs and gave them diarrhea. My pup is on Wellness Large Breed and is doing really well.


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## DSudd (Sep 22, 2006)

The red dots on the belly could be a staph infection. The bumps (if I remember correctly) look like little pimples.


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## ls1norcal (Oct 16, 2008)

Wow. A friend of mine has a chow, and he was feeding him food that had wheat and corn gluten in it and he had the same problems my dog does.

Is there a general rule of thumb for weaning a pup off his current food and on a new one? I think I read to do it in quarters, 25% day 1, half day 2, etc.


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## sprzybyl (May 15, 2008)

I usually wean over like 2 weeks... do 25% for a few days, then when things, er, regulate, go to 50% for a few days, then to 75%, etc. 

Riley had bumps on her tummy and was chewing at her skin a lot when we got her- her skin was generally dry. She was on Canidae, and the vet said her skin is dry from growing... so we supplemented with some peanut oil, (or you can use fish oil) just a tablespoon (wean up to that, too) at each meal. It helped her with her skin.

Of course, she turned out to be allergic to grains, so that could be another problem. We are now on Orijen Large Breed Puppy (LBP) and doing wonderful!


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## Sherush (Jan 12, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: sprzybylI usually wean over like 2 weeks... do 25% for a few days, then when things, er, regulate, go to 50% for a few days, then to 75%, etc.


That is what we do with Jesse too on weaning to new food, which is easier on their system then if you do it too fast.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: ls1norcal.
> 
> ....or is it all basically a scam?












Look how long different breeds have eaten "regular" non breed specific food and lived long healthy lives. My mom feeds the same thing to her dogs which include a GSD mix that is about 9835783 years old, and 2 Chihuahuas.

As far as the Innova LBP, I know several folks that have fed this to their GSD pups and they have all had TERRIBLE poops while on it. (Don't get me wrong, Iam NOT saying it is a bad food, it would just depend on if it agrees with your pup or not.)

Your pup really doesn't need "puppy food" at all. A quality kibble that is formulated for "All life stages" would be just as good for him. (or better.)


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

royal canin is very good with their marketing. people go to petsmart, see the shiny bag with their specific breed and think, "wow, a dog food made just for my dog." i think it also causes people to justify paying a very premium price for what, imo, is a very mediocre food. id prefer they just concentrate on making two or three high quality foods, but that is just my opinion regarding the quality. 

do all these different breeds/dog types really need a different food? sorry to offend anyone who feeds RC (it may be all that works for a particular dog) but when i look at this list, it just cracks me up.

_Royal Canin MINI Babydog 30 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Puppy 33 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Adult 27 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Indoor Puppy 27 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Indoor Adult 21 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Toy Indoor Adult 25 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Chihuahua 28 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Dachshund 28 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Miniature Schnauzer 25 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Poodle 30 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Shih Tzu 24 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Yorkshire 28 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Special 30 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Weight Care 30 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Dental Hygiene 24 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Beauty Care 26 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MINI Aging Care 27 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MEDIUM Puppy 32 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MEDIUM Adult 25 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MEDIUM Active Special 25 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MEDIUM Bulldog 24 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MEDIUM Cocker Spaniel 25 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MEDIUM Aging Care 25 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Babydog 30 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Large Breed Puppy 32 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Large Breed Adult Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Aging Care 26 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Boxer 26 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI German Shepherd 24 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Golden Retriever 25 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Labrador Retriever 30 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Joint and Coat Care 28 Dog Food 
Royal Canin MAXI Weight Care 27 Dog Food 
Royal Canin CYNOTECHNIQUE ENERGY 4800 Dog Food 
Royal Canin GIANT Adult 28 Dog Food _


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

I am feeding my puppy Taste of the Wild, I was going to do Large Puppy Orijen but after I bought a bag and did more research it was too high in protein and I didn't want to risk Pano. I like the Taste of the Wild, it has pretty solid ingredients (no real red flags). 

I plan on switching to RAW once she starts sleeping through the night (and I can get my full nights sleep lol).


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Smith3I am feeding my puppy Taste of the Wild, I was going to do Large Puppy Orijen but after I bought a bag and did more research it was too high in protein and I didn't want to risk Pano. I like the Taste of the Wild, it has pretty solid ingredients (no real red flags).


i think the confusion lies in the fact that all the high protein diets (grain free) are also too high in calcium. so, while it is true that almost all high protein grain free diets are inappropriate for large breed puppies, it is not due to the high protein itself. its a good case of guilt by association.

imo, you are risking more by feeding the TOTW with about 2% calcium, whereas the orijen puppy large was designed with the appropriate amount of calcium for a large breed pup. i have see no modern research to indicate the higher protein is a problem for our pups, just people repeating old myths over the internet.

is 2% calcium too high? most studies have proven that 3% calcium causes developmental problems in large breed pups (great danes are often studied) and conclude by saying 1.2%-1.5% is more ideal for growing large breed pups. therefore, for me personally, my comfort level is much greater with orijen puppy large than with TOTW.

if you have seen any actual research to show high protein causes growth problems in our pups, i would like to see it.

here is something i posted in another thread. it is an excerpt from a larger study. there are other modern studies with similar conclusions. 

_n 1991, a researcher named Richard Nap did a study to explore this question. Nap developed three diets that had identical (moderate) energy contenst, but three different levels of protein: 14.6 per cent, 23.1 per cent and 31.6 per cent. Nap ged groups of Great Dane puppies these three different diets and found no differences with respect to overall height, bone length or body weights, although the puppies fed 14.6 per cent protein had abnormally low blood-albumin concentrations, an indication of marginal protein deficiency. Among the puppies fed 31.6 per cent protein, there were no signs of abnormal skeletal development, <u>*leading the researchers to conclude "differenced in protein intake per se did not affect the occurence of disturbed skeletal development*</u> in young Great Danes. A causative role for dietary protein in the development of osteochondrosis in dogs is unlikely." 

CALCIUM AND PHOSPHORUS 

The influence of calcium and phosphorus on skeletal development has been widely studied in dogs. These studies have examined the effects of excess calcium intake, insufficient calcium intake as well as imbalances in the ratio of calcium to phosphorus. All three of these conditions will lead to skeletal abnormalities. 

Calcium deficience is relatively uncommon in puppies fed comercial pet foods, but it does still occur occasionally in puppies fed homemade diets, since homemade diets are often high in phosphorus and low in calcium. Calcium deficiency leads to nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism, a condition that causes skeletal malformation and severe bone fractures, which can be fatal. 

<u>*A far more common cause of skeletal abnormalitis in growing puppies is excess calcium intake. In one study, Great Dane puppies fed a diet with 1.1 per cent calcium had normal skeletal development, but those fed the same diet except with 3.3 per cent calcium suffered from severe skeletal abnormalities, *</u>including osteochondrosis dessicans and rickets._ 

here is a passage from an FAQ on the wellness core dog food (for which i applaud their responsible approach):

_ I have heard that some of these high protein diets can’t be fed to large breed puppies. Why? 
*Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.3 – 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities.* Many of the high protein diets on the market today are well in excess of 1.5% Calcium. We do not recommend any large breed puppies be fed our CORE dog diets, or any of the other high protein diets on the market today. In fact, we would conservatively say that puppies in general should not feed higher protein diets that exceed 1.5% Calcium. Again, this is why we feature a maintenance claim and promote the diet for dogs over 1 year in age _


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

Derek, do you have any more links on this? I'd love to read up on it. I am open to opinions, "all i read" pointed to the protein correlation. 

Thanks for the info!


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

if you want to wade through this study, you will find that while there is an AAFCO recomendation of calcium levels of 1%-2.5%, the study recommends closer to the lower range for larger breeds, thus the commonly seen 1.5% maximum recommendation commonly agreed upon by many "expert" in the field.

http://www.thensome.com/hod.htm

here is a little more regarding proteingranted, many studies are done on great danes and involve protein levels in the 32% range, but its interesting that even in a breed very susceptible to growth abnormalities, they have found no correlation between higher protein levels and skeletal growth problems)



_Concern about protein causing developmental bone problems in large-breed
puppies has led some breeders to reduce the amount of protein they feed.
However, in research published in 1993 based on studies of Great Dane
puppies at Utrecht University in the Netherlands, it was shown that dietary
protein does not contribute to these problems.6

Herman A. Hazewinkel, D.V.M., Ph.D., professor of veterinary medicine at
Utrecht University, led the research that found no detrimental effects from
protein levels up to 32 percent of the diet. However, puppies fed a diet of
only 15 percent protein showed evidence of inadequate protein intake.

"Too low protein decreases the growth rate of puppies and also their
immunological response," Hazewinkel says. "This is true for large- and
small-breed puppies. An adequate protein level should be higher than 15
percent."

This study, conducted in young Great Danes during their first half-year of
life, concluded that dietary protein increased to 32 percent does not
negatively affect skeletal or cartilage development in these dogs. The
research also confirmed that dietary protein did not have detrimental
effects on liver and kidney functioning.


1 Newburg LH, Curtis AC. Production of renal injury in the white rat by the
protein of the diet. Arch Int Med. 1928; 42:801-21.
2 Brenner BM, Meyer TW, Hostetter TH. New England J. of Medicine. 1982;
307:652.
3 Finco DR. Proc the Waltham/OSU Symposium on Nephrology and Urology,
Columbus, OH. Oct. 1992, p. 39.
4 Kronfeld DS. Aust. Vet. J. 1994; 71:328.
5 Churchill J, Polzin D, Osborne C, Tet. al. Proceedings ACVM. 1997:675.
6 Nap RC, Hazewinkel HAW, Vorhout G, Biewenga WJ, Koeman JP, Goedegebuure
SA, van't Klooster A Th. The influence of the dietary protein content on
growth in Giant breed dogs. Journal of Veterinary and Comparative
Orthopaedics and Traumatology. 1993; 6:1-8._

i must say that research may show 10 years down the road that very high protein levels will have some adverse effects. for now, i have found no conclusive research on the topic. the issue on excessive calcium seems, to me, very conclusive. this is why i would favor a grain free, high protein food w/ the proper calcium levels (orijen large breed puppy) over a lower protein food with 2% calcium.

finally, if anyone has anything showing a correlation between high protein levels and growth problems in large breed puppies (other than people just parroting what they read on the internet or heard from someone else) i would be very open to learning more.


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