# Stim level for purposeful negative association



## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

I understand low level e collar work and how to determine those levels.

How do you determine a stim level for creating purposeful negative association e.g digging in trash, jumping on couch etc...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

So ... you do know how to "train" with an E-Collar???


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## Apexk9 (Sep 13, 2015)

Put the collar on your neck.
Go up as high as you can go; that number.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

mikecrom83 said:


> I understand low level e collar work and how to determine those levels.
> 
> How do you determine a stim level for creating purposeful negative association e.g digging in trash, jumping on couch etc...


I guess ideally it would be the lowest level that would stop the digging or whatever, but I think whats most important is the timing to make that association with what you're trying to stop. Set it up carefully and you may not have to use a high level.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Apexk9 said:


> Put the collar on your neck.
> Go up as high as you can go; that number.


No. 

Dogs will feel stimulation at different levels from humans, and different from other dogs.

What I can "take" is entirely too much for my dog, and most others. Testing the collar on yourself is a good idea (I've always done it), but using that as a basis for the stim used on the dog is not.

OP - Google "threshold theory dog training," and once you understand the concept of threshold, you'll be able to find the appropriate number for your dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Uh ohh ... to bad for me! Pet People question! 

Your going to need to make the dogs life "suck" for "three secs" if you need to stop a behaviour ... "right freaking now!"

"Behaviour Modification" protocol and this is "NOT" how you "TRAIN" a dog with an E-Collar but it "is" how you stop and unwanted behaviour! We are "not" looking for "working levels" here!

Either set the dog up or bait him. You set the E-Collar as high as it will go and when the dog "goes for it" you hit the button! And you hold it down for a count of three! Will the dog scream?? Most likely, will he wet himself probably??

But ... what he won't do?? Is ... whatever it was he was doing! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-RK24CCH4Q&index=2&list=PLJ7o1pCCSIaH9_aTn-wieA2XjbAyIIlQl

If that is to much for you then use a "Bonker" same results without the "Drama!"

You can use a high tech tech "Bonker" a small towel bound with rubbers bands and you throw it at the dog and "hit" him or ... use a rolled up pair of socks! 

See here:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7410522-post2.html

This is the same thing using a "throw chain" aka "Bonker." 
Dog Training and Obedience Articles | Self Correction - Carpentersville, Illinois

I have not trained "thousands of dogs" myself but Jeff Gellman and Gary Wilkes have!

If you have questions ... you can go straight to the source and ask them:
https://www.facebook.com/Solid-K9-Training-140229622668254/
https://www.facebook.com/gary.wilkes.39?fref=ts
https://www.facebook.com/The-Good-Dog-Training-And-Rehabilitation-133978373293039/


Tip ...be "respectful" they "will" answer questions but they have a low threshold for "tools!" That is why they don't do open forums! 

Oh yes you can also ask "Lou Castle" on here ... ser name "lou!"


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

This depends on which collar you have. With a good collar and good timing you don't need to turn it all the way up and you almost never need it for three full seconds. If the dog actually wets himself you probably went to far. I'm sure there is a level where the dog will learn and you don't have to clean up the mess.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DobbyDad said:


> This depends on which collar you have. With a good collar and good timing you don't need to turn it all the way up and you almost never need it for three full seconds. If the dog actually wets himself you probably went to far. I'm sure there is a level where the dog will learn and you don't have to clean up the mess.


Hey ... I say use a rolled up pair of socks aka Bonker and bean the dog!

Longer the dog gets to "practice" a bad behaviour the harder it is to stop it. Unless in the case of counter surfing he eats something and dies ... I guess that works to???


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

Thanks, this is what I was looking for. A negative association towards something the dog should have a negative association towards. "AKA" making whatever that issue is (jumping on people, running in the road etc.) The same way a dog fence works essentially. Behaviors that are not EVER wanted.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Hey ... I say use a rolled up pair of socks aka Bonker and bean the dog!
> 
> Longer the dog gets to "practice" a bad behaviour the harder it is to stop it. Unless in the case of counter surfing he eats something and dies ... I guess that works to???


 Rolled up pair of socks? You must have some fearsome feet to be able to use your socks as a behavior modification tool!


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

LOL! I've heard of these "bonker" methods... tried it out on my dogs for things like counter surfing. Both dogs will startle but then immediately get excited when they see the object I threw, grab the object, and prance around. I use it they get a little too amped up wrestling in the house... its more of a startling, but happy interruption. 

About the stim... I think dialing up all the way and holding for 3 seconds is way overkill and unnecessarily cruel unless its literally a life or death issue. Just from working with my dog on ecollar in various situations, I know that level 80/127 on the lower powered dogtra for 1 second when he is mildly to moderately aroused would bee PLENTY! Holding that for 3 seconds would be way more than enough... and 127 would be awful and completely unnecessary.  Some dogs have higher tolerances than others, but I would try something a little less extreme, and ideally it would be good to really train your dog with lower levels of stim and get a feel for his tolerance before you go using the intense levels for negative reinforcement. 

That being said, I think its better to use too high of a level a few times than to constantly be using not quite enough and letting the issues drag on.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

Lykaios said:


> That being said, I think its better to use too high of a level a few times than to constantly be using not quite enough and letting the issues drag on.


Generally, yes. Correction under the dog's threshold will only result in raising that threshold. The trick is giving a correct just above the threshold - anything more than that is simply unnecessary abuse, regardless of the method used.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Lykaios said:


> LOL! I've heard of these "bonker" methods... tried it out on my dogs for things like counter surfing. Both dogs will startle but then immediately get excited when they see the object I threw, grab the object, and prance around. I use it they get a little too amped up wrestling in the house... its more of a startling, but happy interruption.


Yep no doubt and that would be because you used it wrong! If the Dog sees it's coming ... then you've failed! You changed into a "game" for the dog and he figures you just can't "aim" worth a crap and accidentally hit him in the head! Happens all the time on "BoxerForum," members have tried and they also failed! 

It seemed pretty straight forth and simple to me?? Dog shouldn't see it coming ...just that simple, 

So that would be my understand of why it's been a fail for a lot of people?? Lack of commitment as it were,"I" had no problems, using it myself. But ...
you can ask the author questions here and if anyone does ...be "respectful" "Pro's" don't bare "fools" well ... just saying.  

https://www.facebook.com/gary.wilkes.39 
Additionally "anyone" that actually wants to "understand" how it's "suppose" to work can go here:

Home

Be "respectful" and he will be happy to explain. 

But ... you deliver an "aversive" that the dog understands, if the dog thinks it's a game ... you got it wrong! But hey you can always go to plan "B" and use a "throw chain." 

Dog Training and Obedience Articles | Self Correction - Carpentersville, Illinois




Lykaios said:


> About the stim... I think dialing up all the way and holding for 3 seconds is way overkill and unnecessarily cruel unless its literally a life or death issue. Just from working with my dog on ecollar in various situations, I know that level 80/127 on the lower powered dogtra for 1 second when he is mildly to moderately aroused would bee PLENTY! Holding that for 3 seconds would be way more than enough... and 127 would be awful and completely unnecessary.  Some dogs have higher tolerances than others, but I would try something a little less extreme, and ideally it would be good to really train your dog with lower levels of stim and get a feel for his tolerance before you go using the intense levels for negative reinforcement.
> 
> That being said, I think its better to use too high of a level a few times than to constantly be using not quite enough and letting the issues drag on.


Yes ... just below threshold, "Pet People" (of which I am a member) do that crap "Pro's" do not. I did it myself with advise from "David Trainer on the leash "Pop Thing," I think I applied a "pop" to the top of "Rocky's" head (with the loose end of the leash) with much less "vigor" than David would have?? Worked out fine nonetheless ... "problem solved." (He would get "agitated and bounce, in the presence of other dogs "not" a problem but I found it .. annoying!)

But my dog is well trained, he was not doing anything that was a matter of life and death and could get him killed! Owners whose dogs have behaviors that will get them killed .... need the bad behavior to stop as I tend to say "right freaking now! 

Jeff Gellman says " I don't need people to defend me"... so I won't. People that "can't" train there dog and have a dog who's behavior will get them "Killed" ... don't have "time" to screw around with "just below threshold!"

They need crap free advise that can solve there problems "right freaking now!" I don't follow "Victor Stillwell," and lots of people know that. Others can advocate a "slow roll" approach ... not my thing. 

I give advise from "Trainers" that work with serious freaking dogs and can solve those dogs problems. Pretty much that simple, if people don't care for "my" "point of view" they don't have to follow it.

And "127" is to high??? Yeah ... I'm pretty sure these "folks" would have gladly traded putting there dogs thru 3 seconds of "discomfort," in an effort to save there dogs lives. And "not" endure the pain they are going thru now because they "failed" as "responsible" dog owners!

Off-duty HPD officer is being blamed for the shooting death of a family dog - Houston Chronicle

Family dog shot and killed by neighbor in Canton


So ...yeah.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I really hope no one listens to Chip about stem levels and duration. Likes to quote pro trainers but his advise is definitely not from a pro.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't get it. Just to clarify, does that mean you don't agree that the advice and links by Chip are from a professional trainer, or are you saying that they are but the messenger is not a professional? Or do you mean something entirely different?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DobbyDad said:


> I really hope no one listens to Chip about stem levels and duration. Likes to quote pro trainers but his advise is definitely not from a pro.


Well ... thanks for "demonstrating" to uh "EVERYONE" exactly why when I had "issues" with my dog, I did not go to an "open forum!" I wasn't looking for a freaking "debate" I was looking for "solutions!!!" 

If people know "nothing" then all advise seems pretty much the same?? If I screwed up with my dog someone was getting hurt! I figured I was my own best "crap" filter!

It worked for me I figured it would work for others?? Despite what "you" choose to believe, I seem to be correct!

This in not freaking "Boxerworld!" so you can't do that he/said, she/said "Crap!" Anyone that can* "READ"* and "SEE" knows exactly where "my" information comes from! 

But hey ... I'll make it easier for "you."



*http://solidk9training.com/free-advice/*
*https://www.facebook.com/Solid-K9-Training-140229622668254/*

*http://thegooddog.net/
*
*https://www.facebook.com/The-Good-Dog-Training-And-Rehabilitation-133978373293039/?ref=br_rs*

*http://www.clickandtreat.com/
https://www.facebook.com/gary.wilkes.39?fref=ts



*
https://www.facebook.com/gary.wilkes.39?fref=ts

Those guys would be interested to know they are not "Pro's." That's where the information comes from and you chose to ignore that fact! You can ask them about what I "relayed" yourself, I'm good. 

They don't do "Open Forums" because of "tools" that do "exactly" what you just did, deflect,and redirect, straw man argument! So again thanks for making my point! 


If you contact Jeff ... tell him Chip sent you. Say Boxeforum and GSDForum he may remember me?? Don't know, he's kind of busy traveling around the World, helping folks and stuff! Oh yeah and "Sean" Slip Lead Leash tip came from me while he was trying to help a trainer in an Animal Shelter and they could not use "Tools."

Or depending on where you live you can ask"Jeff" in person about "my" (and must say I am flattered) his" advice in person. He'd be interested to know that he is not a "Pro??" Good luck with that.:

*http://www.rvdogtrainer.com/dates2/*


People pretty much understand that my basis is towards "Balanced Trainers" if they don't like my advise they don't have to follow it! But they do "understand where I'm coming from. If you don't like it ... don't do it! But don't freaking "pretend" you don't know where it's coming from!

As you see ... I made it "easier" for "you!"

Oh yeah not to dis MadLab's guy, another source for "you." Maybe when this folks were looking for a trainer that dealt with Dogs with "serious freaking issues" Victor was busy that week, meet Shelly: https://www.facebook.com/Dogmanship/posts/616109551741205

Bring your best "Treats" and come on down!

I'm out ... I got people to "HELP!" Oh yeah ... "Straw man argument:
Fallacy: Straw Man.
Boom There it is!!!  Pictures, Boom There it is!!!  Images, Boom There it is!!!  Photos, Boom There it is!!!  Videos - User Media - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

I apologize for the confusion, obviously the trainers you link to are pros. The difference is you are not. Do you actually watch the videos you post? In the video you posted on the first page of this very thread a trainer is using a collar on a dog for getting into the dishwasher. I understand the use and need of the collar and do not disagree with the use. If you take a stopwatch and time the duration of the stim used (and it is easy to do) you will see that he only corrects the dog for less than half of a second. You then say to hold the button for 3 full seconds. Why is your use 6 times as long as the pro trainer you seem to admire so much. All I was saying is that your personal advice differs from your links. But looking at your last post I can see that sometimes some people feel the need to overdue things.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Thanks for the clarification DobbyDad. 

I am curious as to why Chip's linked stim time does not match the link he provided as well, (but I did not watch the link, so I will take your word for it). Perhaps it wasn't meant to? I mean maybe he got the stim time from a different source? Perhaps we should ask the messenger for clarification before shooting him? It would make for interesting conversation.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Not just stim time but also stim level. In the video he trainer says his is set at 48 to 50 out of 100 but Chip's advice is to turn it all the way up. Like I said, I don't disagree with the use of an e collar but it should be used responsibly and if you are not sure what you are doing go talk to a trainer do not just get advice from just anyone online. Stim level and duration is different for each dog. I don't think any professional trainer agrees with turn it all the way up and hold it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

There is merit to what you say. I am just curious where Chip is getting this information. I am sure he is not just pulling it out of the air.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

DobbyDad said:


> Not just stim time but also stim level. In the video he trainer says his is set at 48 to 50 out of 100 but Chip's advice is to turn it all the way up. Like I said, I don't disagree with the use of an e collar but it should be used responsibly and if you are not sure what you are doing go talk to a trainer do not just get advice from just anyone online. Stim level and duration is different for each dog. I don't think any professional trainer agrees with turn it all the way up and hold it.


Definitely agree with this. I know that these trainers have on occasions used "dialing up all the way and holding for three seconds" for extreme circumstances. But if you watch very much of your content you would know that this is not the way these trainers generally go about things. This is NOT their go to thing.
IMO the advice posted by Chip, although it references these trainers in links and adds in some quotes, is not an accurate representation of their philosophy and training methods at all. I like the trainers referenced though, and I would recommend watching some of their stuff!

Especially with ecollar training, you need to read the dog and the situation, and not just follow some formula. Ecollars are such excellent training tools, but at the same time, when used incorrectly and without looking at each dog as an individual, its easy with a slight turn of a dial and press of a button to (even unintentionally) cross the line between good training and abuse.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well then ... if your going to be "respectful" ... then so will I! 




DobbyDad said:


> I apologize for the confusion, obviously the trainers you link to are pros. The difference is you are not.


 Pretty much anyone that reads me "post" has seen me state that "explicitly" at some point in time?? Do a search. 



DobbyDad said:


> Do you actually watch the videos you post? In the video you posted on the first page of this very thread a trainer is using a collar on a dog for getting into the dishwasher. I understand the use and need of the collar and do not disagree with the use. If you take a stopwatch and time the duration of the stim used (and it is easy to do) you will see that he only corrects the dog for less than half of a second. You then say to hold the button for 3 full seconds. Why is your use 6 times as long as the pro trainer you seem to admire so much. All I was saying is that your personal advice differs from your links. But looking at your last post I can see that sometimes some people feel the need to overdue things.


That is not a "Trainer" that is "Jeff Gellman!" Do You listen?? In the same video at the beginning he "says" 2 to 3 seconds and later to your point, he says on "that" dog ... one sec,he also says "opps he turned it back down," not sure if that was before or after but whatever. 

On his weekly Q&A I have heard him often say "Crank it up as "high as it will go" for 3 sec's. If you want to double check:

What Would Jeff Do? Q&A Go for it! 

But "apparently" what he "says" and what he does are "slightly" different things?? And now we all know that because he "Shows his work!"

So apparently as soon as he said three seconds ... I stepped out to get coffee because, I though I had three seconds?? So yeah you got me!

And he also "clarified" how high to go, we all know this because he _*"shows his work"*_ and you know because I *"cite"* sources!

But ... as you "correctly" pointed out*"one second at 48 to 50" percent with a quality E-Collar"* should be sufficient. To halt a behavior.

My goal is to help others and ... you've helped "me" in that effort! 

Personally I say just use a freaking pair of socks as a Bonker a few times and be done with but regardless ...

I award you a "Houndy:"










Well done Sir.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DobbyDad said:


> All I was saying is that your personal advice differs from your links. But looking at your last post I can see that sometimes some people feel the need to overdue things.


Did not "really" see this part but I think I answered it?? If you were referring to this "particular" thread??? If not ... I'd be happy to "explain" me.


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

For those who are concerned that I will see one sentence of information on dog forum and run out and do it, please rest easy. I am aware this is a forum and there are lot of differing opinions and such. That's what's bad and great. I can get lots of information in a short time, but also have to be mature enough to digest it. Chip has given some opinions along with some empirical evidence which is GREAT. I am appreciative of that. 
I understand some issues tend to get "emotional" but I am looking for information, OR advice with reasoning. Thanks

FYI I like Jeff Gellman a lot. He is no non sense and does not pull any punches. This may rub some the wrong way but I appreciate his candor...he seems to do ok too...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

mikecrom83 said:


> For those who are concerned that I will see one sentence of information on dog forum and run out and do it, please rest easy. I am aware this is a forum and there are lot of differing opinions and such. That's what's bad and great. I can get lots of information in a short time, but also have to be mature enough to digest it. Chip has given some opinions along with some empirical evidence which is GREAT. I am appreciative of that.
> I understand some issues tend to get "emotional" but I am looking for information, OR advice with reasoning. Thanks
> 
> FYI I like Jeff Gellman a lot. He is no non sense and does not pull any punches. This may rub some the wrong way but I appreciate his candor...he seems to do ok too...


LOL, once "again ..." my" mythical one in a thousands speaks up! 

And yep I am pretty "strident" but that is because, I understand what it's like to "struggle" with a "Pet" with "serious freaking "issues" and I did it on my own, with information I found online from people that deal with dogs with serious issues! 

Newbies struggling don't understand the difference between trainers?? But I do and if they look at the information I post they will to.

I make a lot of "noise" because the other side likes to "pretend" they can solve biting dogs problems. And I tick them out by pointing out "they can't" ... *"show your work!" *

If people listen to me they "won't be Alpha Rolling dogs and getting bit in the "freaking face" ... "use a drag leash so you won't be laying hands on the dog." I do expect people to use some kind of common sense and I have heard from those that do. 

Most owners "struggling" are like this:
The Substitute Teacher Syndrome – Solid K9 Training

and they need to be like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-VJXhM0iJo


But .. yep I got caught out, because I stated what I heard. But ... tens of thousands of others around the "world" heard the same thing I did. The difference is they "don't" do open forums either ... because they don't need the "crap!"

Most likely, any one that did attend his RVT Tour:
*Dates and Tickets ? Jeff Gellman's RV Dog Training Tour*

with a dog that needed "Behavior Modification" saw what we did. But Jeff did set the record straight for the rest of us by "Showing his Work."

For the rest that "got it wrong" ...there are 31,536,000 seconds in a year. And I bet that those "Dog's" owners, I cited among thousands of others, who lost there dogs "because" they were not properly trained! Would gladly trade making *3 secs *of there dogs lives "uncomfortable" by getting it "wrong" would gladly trade those "3" secs of "extreme discomfort" to have there dogs back by setting the E-Collar to max. 

But "we" don't know because, ... "they" don't do open forums. Oh for the record .. all sources cited ... I pulled "out of the air" ... I believe it's called the internet??


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

The trainer in the video says one second at half power. Then later says two seconds and that some dogs need more power. Nowhere does he say "just turn it all the way up and hold the button for three seconds". This is overkill for couch jumping or trash digging per the original post. 
It's great how some people site a source and then add their own opinion and act as if it came from the source.
Over correction can cause problems also.


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Not every dog should be corrected at the same level. Maxed out and for a long duration on every dog for every correction is ridiculous.


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## yuriy (Dec 23, 2012)

DobbyDad said:


> Not every dog should be corrected at the same level. Maxed out and for a long duration on every dog for every correction is ridiculous.


I agree. Prolonged (or even instantaneous) max-stim is a last-option scenario for a very extreme case, and can easily result in a traumatized dog. And at that point a prong / dominant collar would be a better option anyway.

Not only will every dog and every situation call for individual application, but ecollars provide very different stim between makes, models and battery charge levels. My previous ecollar, a Garmin Delta Sport (which I don't recommend), gave considerably lower stim as the battery charge dropped - it was imperative to keep it constantly 100% charged when not in use, just for the sake of having a consistent level of corrections every training session. I do the same with my Educator ET800TS - always on the charger when not in use.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DobbyDad said:


> The trainer in the video says one second at half power. Then later says two seconds and that some dogs need more power. Nowhere does he say "just turn it all the way up and hold the button for three seconds". This is overkill for couch jumping or trash digging per the original post.
> It's great how some people site a source and then add their own opinion and act as if it came from the source.
> Over correction can cause problems also.


 WHICH PART OF "I HEARD IT HERE,":* What Would Jeff Do? Q&A


*
DO YOU "NOT" UNDERSTAND???"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Chip18 said:


> Well then ... if your going to be "respectful" ... then so will I!
> 
> 
> Pretty much anyone that reads me "post" has seen me state that "explicitly" at some point in time?? Do a search.
> ...



[









You know what ... I retract my "Houndy" my "instincts" are good! I have people "to help!!" So I will follow my guys advice and say this ....


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## DobbyDad (Jan 28, 2014)

Full power on a quality E collar for three seconds as a starting point with all dogs is wrong. I don't care who your trainer is or who you are. Full power on a quality E collar for three full seconds as a starting point is overkill and simply abusive. 
No treats and over correction may be your training methods but I prefer my dog to walk with his head up when I walk him and not down looking like his spirit is broken. 
You have had 1 german shepherd, over the last 40 years I have had 12 and I have used an E collar for about the last 15. Maybe when you get a little more personal experience you will be able to judge levels a little better.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

mikecrom83 said:


> I understand low level e collar work and how to determine those levels.
> 
> How do you determine a stim level for creating purposeful negative association e.g digging in trash, jumping on couch etc...





mikecrom83 said:


> Thanks, this is what I was looking for. A negative association towards something the dog should have a negative association towards. "AKA" making whatever that issue is (*jumping on people, * running in the road etc.) The same way a dog fence works essentially. Behaviors that are not EVER wanted.


* Please do not use an Ecollar. * Based on what I've placed into bold just above, it does not appear that you really understand the tool. If you were to give a dog a high level stim for _"jumping on people"_ you might make him aggressive, instead of stopping the jumping up. 

If you knew how to use the tool properly you'd know the answer to your initial question. Using the tool like this is, responsible for giving the Ecollar a bad rap the world over.


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

LouCastle said:


> * Please do not use an Ecollar. * Based on what I've placed into bold just above, it does not appear that you really understand the tool. If you were to give a dog a high level stim for _"jumping on people"_ you might make him aggressive, instead of stopping the jumping up.
> 
> 
> 
> If you knew how to use the tool properly you'd know the answer to your initial question. Using the tool like this is, responsible for giving the Ecollar a bad rap the world over.



You are correct. If I was an e-collar expert, I wouldn't be asking questions on a forum. That's an obvious statement. Frankly as I can clearly see, there is also not one way people are using e-collars as seen in the posts under this inquiry. So saying "knowing the way" also is slightly ambiguous. 

I was NEVER claiming to be an expert in e-collar training OR negative association. I said I UNDERSTAND(maybe one assumed this implies expert) low level training. I also said that I am looking for helpful information, not reading something and running out and pushing buttons.Simply telling me not to use it is not helpful. Also putting me in the "bad rap" crowd for simply asking a question is kind of rude. I mean I know your saving the world from all the "bad rap" people like me and stuff, but jeeze this an information sharing site. You could have simply said using it for that specific behavior would not be right, and then explained why if you so chose, or not if you so chose. 

One thing I am realizing is that e-collar questions seriously get people fired up. 

***Disclaimer...For the rest of the posts that come up, I am not out winging it with an e-collar. I'm simply doing my research!!!!


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

mikecrom83 said:


> You are correct. If I was an e-collar expert, I wouldn't be asking questions on a forum. That's an obvious statement. Frankly as I can clearly see, there is also not one way people are using e-collars as seen in the posts under this inquiry. So saying "knowing the way" also is slightly ambiguous.
> 
> I was NEVER claiming to be an expert in e-collar training OR negative association. I said I UNDERSTAND(maybe one assumed this implies expert) low level training. I also said that I am looking for helpful information, not reading something and running out and pushing buttons.Simply telling me not to use it is not helpful. Also putting me in the "bad rap" crowd for simply asking a question is kind of rude. I mean I know your saving the world from all the "bad rap" people like me and stuff, but jeeze this an information sharing site. You could have simply said using it for that specific behavior would not be right, and then explained why if you so chose, or not if you so chose.
> 
> ...


You should click on the link in loucastles signature.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

When it comes to modifying behavior or in this case weakening or eliminating a behavior from a dogs repertoire with any kind of aversive one has to keep in mind this I believe it was Ivan that said it but not sure.

It is kind of like taking apart a car. You can do it with a screw driver or you can do it with a bomb. If you choose the screw driver it takes more time to get it done. If you choose the bomb it will happen fast but there is going to be damage that you have to fix and parts you have to salvage.

Likewise with the dog you will have to stim more often at lower levels but that isn't necessarily a bad thing in a case like jumping. The act of a dog jumping on you is packaged with other behaviors like a dog coming to you in the first place or being near you. If you decide to annoy him for this behavior while taking care not to reward him for it by doing stuff like petting and attention when he does it eventually he is going to decide to stop doing it and since the consequence wasn't so over the top through the repetition of screw ups the dog is able to pin down exactly why the consequence happened and how to avoid it.

On the flip side you blow him up and its a major event and the dog is like what the **** and struggling to find answers for what happened. Is it because he touched you? Is it because he approached you? Is it because hes in the room? Is it because there's a plant next to you and he glanced at it when he jumped on you? 

It is an issue of clarity. 

Don't blow up the dog.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

mikecrom83 said:


> You are correct. If I was an e-collar expert, I wouldn't be asking questions on a forum. That's an obvious statement. Frankly as I can clearly see, there is also not one way people are using e-collars as seen in the posts under this inquiry. So saying "knowing the way" also is slightly ambiguous.
> 
> I was NEVER claiming to be an expert in e-collar training OR negative association. I said I UNDERSTAND(maybe one assumed this implies expert) low level training. I also said that I am looking for helpful information, not reading something and running out and pushing buttons.Simply telling me not to use it is not helpful. Also putting me in the "bad rap" crowd for simply asking a question is kind of rude. I mean I know your saving the world from all the "bad rap" people like me and stuff, but jeeze this an information sharing site. You could have simply said using it for that specific behavior would not be right, and then explained why if you so chose, or not if you so chose.
> 
> ...


I personally (and I believe most all of the other posters) did't see anything wrong with you or your question. My responses were just directed at the advice I think was bad from one poster in particular. I think ecollars can be used for corrections/negative association. But you just need to read the situation and the dog and use it appropriately. 

Bailif's post hit the nail on the head, really like that analogy!


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> You should click on the link in loucastles signature.



I did check out his site. Lots of valuable information.


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

Baillif said:


> When it comes to modifying behavior or in this case weakening or eliminating a behavior from a dogs repertoire with any kind of aversive one has to keep in mind this I believe it was Ivan that said it but not sure.
> 
> It is kind of like taking apart a car. You can do it with a screw driver or you can do it with a bomb. If you choose the screw driver it takes more time to get it done. If you choose the bomb it will happen fast but there is going to be damage that you have to fix and parts you have to salvage.
> 
> ...



I have noticed two schools of thought in my research. 

1.Taking your time to work the behavior out of the dog(downfall being the risk during the process of your eliminating a behavior that could b dangerous). But also theorized that your bond is better, less severe discomfort for the dog and the handler.

2.Setting off a "grenade" for "certain" behaviors(eliminating the time factor when it comes to behaviors that can endanger the dog or handler), but theorized to possibly be inhumane and unnecessary. Also possible creation of bond issues or other issues when done poorly.

Two entirely schools of thought and makes due diligence prior to the choice a tough one.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

mikecrom83 said:


> I have noticed two schools of thought in my research.
> 
> 1.Taking your time to work the behavior out of the dog(downfall being the risk during the process of your eliminating a behavior that could b dangerous). But also theorized that your bond is better, less severe discomfort for the dog and the handler.
> 
> ...


Whatever you do, the biggest thing to keep in mind is your dog. You can make a case for any method, and I'm sure you'll see more strong opinions on which way is best. Think about your dog and what types of things were successful with him as you trained him, then think about what would apply to him.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is a time and a place for both schools of thought. There are certain behaviors I have zero tolerance for and will come down hard on. There are times when a hard correction is called for when it can shut down a behavior that is dangerous. I don't think anyone will dispute that. 

Just jumping on someone isn't one of them. The reality of the situation is for something like jumping on someone we unintentionally reinforced the **** out of that behavior and if not us people we allowed the dog to come into contact with did. Everyone lets the cute little puppy come jump on them when they are little. It becomes not ok when they are older and larger or when we simply do not want it.

You can mix schools too. You can stim at a lower level to get repetition and build clarity for the dog showing it exactly what it is getting corrected for and then if it is a self reinforcing behavior that the dog just keeps doing then you can start to raise the level to eliminate the behavior completely with minimal stress on the dog because it knows why it is happening and how to avoid it.

It is about clarity and fairness. Timing and consistency and proper correction procedure plays a much higher role in stopping a dog from doing a behavior than the intensity of the correction. People find adjusting the intensity to be an easy switch because it doesn't require much thought. But if you learn and get good about how to be properly timed consistent and clear in your procedure you will have way more success and your dogs will look better in the end.


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Whatever you do, the biggest thing to keep in mind is your dog. You can make a case for any method, and I'm sure you'll see more strong opinions on which way is best. Think about your dog and what types of things were successful with him as you trained him, then think about what would apply to him.



That was he point of my disclaimer earlier. I'm using the forum for what it is. This is simply used for gathering information and digesting to see what is BEST FOR MY DOG. If I didn't care about what's best for the dog I wouldn't ask and would zap away.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I didn't say you didn't care.


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I didn't say you didn't care.



Sorry about that I didn't mean to imply that you did. I was more making a general statement if hypothetically I didn't care.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I thought you asked a fairly simple question, and I think there's two main points to think about beyond how high a level. How your dog reacts to the leash corrections you've used, if you have will give you an idea of how he'll take an ecollar correction once he understands electric, and how you're going to set up the behavior to make the right association.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

mikecrom83 said:


> You are correct. If I was an e-collar expert, I wouldn't be asking questions on a forum. That's an obvious statement.


One needn't be _"an Ecollar expert"_ to use one. One just has to understand some basic principles. You do not, or you'd not be asking about using the tool to cure jumping up or how to find the right level for an issue. 



mikecrom83 said:


> Frankly as I can clearly see, there is also not one way people are using e-collars as seen in the posts under this inquiry. So saying "knowing the way" also is slightly ambiguous.


Of course people are using the tool differently. That's the case with EVERY TOOL UNDER THE SUN. But you are asking about using the tool for something that can create a very dangerous situation. Since you seem to be a novice, I'd have thought that the appropriate question would be something like, "Is it appropriate to use the Ecollar to stop a dog from jumping on people?" Instead, you ask what level should be used. The fact is that the tool should not be used for this at any level, without previous training of the dog with the tool. 



mikecrom83 said:


> I was NEVER claiming to be an expert in e-collar training OR negative association. * I said I UNDERSTAND(maybe one assumed this implies expert) low level training. *


It does not imply, _"expert."_ It DOES imply some working knowledge of the tool. Based on what you planned to use it for, I'd say that you have a very small amount of knowledge, but that you DO NOT _"understand ... low level training."_ If you did, you'd not be thinking about using high levels of stim to stop a dog from jumping up. 



mikecrom83 said:


> I also said that I am looking for helpful information, not reading something and running out and pushing buttons. * Simply telling me not to use it is not helpful. *


I think that the dog that was wearing the Ecollar would disagree. As would the person who was NOT bitten because you tried this training. 



mikecrom83 said:


> Also putting me in the "bad rap" crowd for simply asking a question is kind of rude.


I didn't put you in that crowd because you've not done it. I don't think what I said was rude, but there is no shortage of folks these days that considers disagreement to be persecution. I'd suggest that if you're going to take part in Internet discussions that you develop a thicker skin. 



mikecrom83 said:


> I mean I know your saving the world from all the "bad rap" people like me and stuff, but jeeze this an information sharing site.


I gave you some information and some advice. 



mikecrom83 said:


> You could have simply said using it for that specific behavior would not be right, and then explained why if you so chose, or not if you so chose.


YOU are the one who said that you understood _"low Ecollar work."_ Fact is, you don't. if you did, you'd know the answer to your question. 



mikecrom83 said:


> One thing I am realizing is that e-collar questions seriously get people fired up.


Yep misuse and abuse has given the tool a bad rap that is responsible for decades of misinformation, myths, misconceptions and outright lies about the tool. Those of us who use it, fight that ignorance constantly. 



mikecrom83 said:


> ***Disclaimer...For the rest of the posts that come up, I am not out winging it with an e-collar. I'm simply doing my research!!!!


Well that's good to know. Your initial post made it sound as if you were going to get the stim level, and then start pressing buttons. 

Fact is, it's IMPOSSIBLE to answer your question, especially with as little as you know about Ecollars. One answer was to turn it up half way. I know a couple of dogs that would not even feel that stim level. Another answer was to turn it up all the way. That might make some dogs freak out and for the jumping issue could easily get someone bitten on the face. Some dogs freak out at levels that others can't feel. The ONLY way to answer the question is for someone to see the dog and how he reacts to stim. 

That person could be you, if you'd invest some time in learning about the tool. In any case, using the tool only for aversion training, or to stop undesired behaviors takes excellent timing, and the ability to read what a dog is thinking at the moment of the button press. You can easily cause problems that it will take a true expert to fix. 



mikecrom83 said:


> I did check out his site. Lots of valuable information.


Thanks. If you use those methods and train the recall, sit and down, then you can use the Ecollar to stop jumping up, at low levels of stim. If the problem persists, you'll know how to increase the level until it stops the behavior.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

DobbyDad said:


> Full power on a quality E collar for three seconds as a starting point with all dogs is wrong. I don't care who your trainer is or who you are. Full power on a quality E collar for three full seconds as a starting point is overkill and simply abusive.
> No treats and over correction may be your training methods but I prefer my dog to walk with his head up when I walk him and not down looking like his spirit is broken.
> You have had 1 german shepherd, over the last 40 years I have had 12 and I have used an E collar for about the last 15. Maybe when you get a little more personal experience you will be able to judge levels a little better.


Hey thanks for the "extra" 22 years! 

But nope one GSD and 8 years. Everybody that sees my body of work, pretty much knows that. What I learned from him, I use with every dog I work with in "Rescue."

I don't need to know "anything" about a dog I get handed over because if they are a biter?? They won't get a chance to "practice" that behavior with me! 
SSl and ... no problem for me, I try and help others do the same, "they" seem to like my advise.


And my "one" GSD and my "Pet People" experience, ... the "advice" I gave myself resulted in this "outcome" :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/4881481-post1.html

So I'm good thanks.


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## mikecrom83 (Jan 4, 2016)

Jumping up on someone was a horrible example to use and I understand that. I will take responsibility for some of the negative feedback. The risk of having that dog have a negative association with a person rather than jumping up is far too high.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

mikecrom83 said:


> Jumping up on someone was a horrible example to use and I understand that. I will take responsibility for some of the negative feedback. The risk of having that dog have a negative association with a person rather than jumping up is far too high.


Well then, I'll accept my part for "apparently" misquoting what I heard??

Jeff did say the video would cause a "fire storm" and this is "not" how you "train" a dog with an E-Collar. I guess "I'm" the only one that heard that also??


It's called an "Act of God" correction, by him at any rate. He's on FB or driving near "someone" right now. Anyone "local" can drop in and ask him about his work, or post a question on his "weekly" radio show.

I am "not an expert" but he is.


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## Lykaios (Nov 18, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Well then, I'll accept my part for "apparently" misquoting what I heard??
> 
> Jeff did say the video would cause a "fire storm" and this is "not" how you "train" a dog with an E-Collar. I guess "I'm" the only one that heard that also??
> 
> ...


I find it a little difficult to *"*decipher*"* what *"*you*"* are trying to *"*say*"* in your *"*posts*"* when almost "every" other the *"*word*"* is *"*quotes*"*
Normally when people put words in "quotes" and they're not actually quoting someone, they are being sarcastic or implying some double meaning. 

Just because you are using words from some trainers and referencing their videos doesn't mean your advice is good. Context is important. 

When someone asks a general question about using stim for negative reinforcement. You bring up a trainer (Jeff Gellman) and recommend using this Act of God method of turning the stem all the way up for 3 seconds. If you watch much of their work and understand their methods of training, you would know that this is not their first option or go to method for stopping behaviors. This is more of a last resort thing for situations that are not ideal. It would be one thing if the OP had mentioned the dog engaging in some seriously intense/problematic behaviors or that this was the last straw and they were about to take the dog to a shelter. But this was just very obviously not the case. 

So when you reference this one part of a training method as the solution to the problem... its the first thing that you bring up and you don't even make mention in the post that this is not really a great way of going about it and its better to actually train and work with your dog rather than literally shocking the crap out of him or he "screams and wets himself"... thats grossly misrepresenting those trainers' actual training and methods and ecollar use in general.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Lykaios said:


> I find it a little difficult to *"*decipher*"* what *"*you*"* are trying to *"*say*"* in your *"*posts*"* when almost "every" other the *"*word*"* is *"*quotes*"*
> Normally when people put words in "quotes" and they're not actually quoting someone, they are being sarcastic or implying some double meaning.
> 
> Just because you are using words from some trainers and referencing their videos doesn't mean your advice is good. Context is important.
> ...


My words here "watch the video, that is why it's posted!"


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