# Showline/Workingline crosses?



## PatchonGSD

Who here has one and why did you choose the cross? 
Please post a photo and/or pedigree. 

What are the general opinions on these dogs?


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## GatorDog

Aiden vom HausDaka



















WGSL/WGWL cross 

I received Aiden at 5 months when he was returned to the breeder because his first owner didn't like him, so he wasn't chosen/purchased intentionally. He's very sweet and settles wonderfully in the house, but has extremely serious aggression/defense in IPO. Very little prey drive. Great tracker. Very handler sensitive. Love of my life :wub:

I'd love to hear any insight to his pedigree (if there is anything to say)


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## Freestep

Gatordog, Aiden is very handsome! He sounds like a good, balanced dog with the good traits of each line.


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## NancyJ

And I got the other half-the worst traits from each line in Toby.

Not the same breeding but it was a Czech sire to a West German Highlines bitch and never again. Loved the dog, but he was a gangly poorly put together bag of nerves.


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## GatorDog

Freestep said:


> Gatordog, Aiden is very handsome! He sounds like a good, balanced dog with the good traits of each line.


He's a great boy, but he is not totally balanced. He has had some reactivity (hackles at strange dogs/some random people and afraid of children) and I think his prey/food/toy drive should be higher, since he really could take it or leave it. We've had serious confidence issues since the day I started training him, but I'm not too sure if it is due to genetics/nerve or the way I started his foundation in training (the wrong way). Although he may not have crazy prey/food/toy drive, he learns very quickly.


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## llombardo

I'm 99.999% sure mine is American/German. I believe mom was american and dad was german working lines. She has a medium to high prey drive, she is toy and food motivated, loves and does well in agility, and she did well with the schutzhund(didn't keep pursuing it) She has the bitch stripe, which I believe is strictly a german line thing. Her tan has quite a bit of red in it, so in certain pictures she looks more red then tan. I don't know if she's done changing yet??? She has definitely gotten the best of traits in each line. She isn't dog aggressive, human aggressive...she is just very neutral. I wish I knew so I could get 10 more of her. I love her temperament, her looks, personality, just everything...yep I'm hooked and feel that she has stolen my heart:wub:


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## elisabeth_00117

Stark is a cross as well : Wild Winds Archangel Raphael





































Sire is WG/DDR working lines and his mother is Can./WG showlines.

He is a very low drive, medium/low energy male. He was quite reactive to people when he was younger and although that is not an issue anymore, I still do not fully trust him with unknown children and watch him very carefully and am very selective on who can greet him. 

He shuts down with any pressure which is why we had to stop training in schutzhund with him. He is extremely handler sensitive. If I yell something to my sister in the other room, he will come and do this submissive jumping on me.

On the flip side - he is a great companion, settles wonderfully in the house and is very calm when out and about in the world. He is always willing to try anything I ask and enjoys just being with me.

He recently earned his TT (Temperament Test) certificate and excels at herding. He can remain calm and clear headed when working and doesn't jump into drive when the sheep move. The trainers really like him and if I could find somewhere to train regularly, I have no doubts he could do well. He also knows a lot of "service" jobs as my cousin has MD and is wheelchair bound and Stark has helped him turn lights on/off, pick up and carry items, brought items to him, open doors and cupboards, etc... very smart guy, who can learn almost anything asked.

I love my boy more than the sun, but I will never get another cross.


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## cliffson1

What seems to be common denominator in most of these cases?


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## robinhuerta

Popular or not......I will be doing a "cross-breeding" of WL x SL.
I need to bring in new genetics into my SL breeding dogs....
I plan on keeping back a female from the breeding for myself.....so time will tell, if the combination was/is successful.


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## PatchonGSD

robinhuerta said:


> Popular or not......I will be doing a "cross-breeding" of WL x SL.
> I need to bring in new genetics into my SL breeding dogs....
> I plan on keeping back a female from the breeding for myself.....so time will tell, if the combination was/is successful.


Hi Robin!

Just wondering (maybe this is a dumb question) but why did you choose to bring in a WL for new genetics, instead of more SL?


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## Debbieg

Benny is WGSL and WL and Elizabeth's definition of Stark sounds like she is describing Benny!. Benny is low to med thresholds and low drive, a bit reactive. He is extremely smart, learns quickly , performs many service tasks but because of the reactivity could never be a true service dog. He is great with children but became too reactive to be a therapy dog even though i had taken him to an assisted living facility when /i visit my mo since he was 8 weeks. Around age 2 he became very suspicious of people walking up to him slowly and haltingly. He can't always tell a threat from a non threat.
He is an wonderful companion for me and has taught me to read dog, and brought to to this forum and wonderful breeders and trainers!

I knew nothing about pedigrees or crosses when but bought him from the same breeder as my former GSD who was all WGSL. 

I often hear he could _almost_ do schutzhund or herding or therapy except for........
My next pup will be all WL.


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## onyx'girl

cliffson1 said:


> What seems to be common denominator in most of these cases?


The showline genetics seem to be more dominant as far as temperament and appearance


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## NancyJ

My cross had plenty of drive as did his showline mother. He was just scared of his own shadow. I tried to start SAR with him, but he was dog reactive, did not like strange men, even though he had been socialized with them and had only good experiences, and I worked with him for months and washed him the day it took him 30 minutes to "get over" a strange peice of styrofoam in the woods. He also was bad east-west and would stumble over his own feet. His father was a KKL1 for life Czech dog, mother was the daughter of Crufts BOB but her lines were predominant W German....I don't have the pedigree....too long ago


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## onyx'girl

What color was Toby Nancy?


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## gagsd

Here are some mixes that seem to have been successful.

Chuck
V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach

Jenny
SG Jenny vom Bayerischen Oberland

Art:
Max ze Stribrneho kamene


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## robinhuerta

The SLs...like some of the WLs...are getting too close in lineage.
I/we decided 3 years ago, to find a WL that we like, research the pedigree & see dogs from it.
My plans were/are to combine the dogs of "my" breeding program....(dogs that I have generations of first hand knowledge of)...to a sound, stable, healthy WL pedigree.
I need to "out cross" now to keep health, nerve, and soundness for my future breeding dogs.
*It is actually a little more *complicated* than that...but I find it is easier to explain in "simple format".

Kinda like this saying...."Too much of a good thing...can be a bad thing in the end, if you aren't careful."........we've been fortunate in much of our dogs......it is time to *add*...before I start to *lose*.
I will also add other SL bloodlines......right now, we are looking for good, sound dogs from the Mutz lines to bring back into our program both male & female. We constantly think generations down the road.

_Breeding isn't only about *TODAY*....it is about *TOMORROW* too..... _


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## NancyJ

onyx'girl said:


> What color was Toby Nancy?


Red and Black....I will have to dig up a picture. Most of him were not digital. 

I think you can get really great dogs with such an outcross but then...there is the risk of dogs like him when you breed very different dogs, no? By the same token there are risks if you breed within the lines too.

I would imagine if the breeder knew what they were doing it could work. I know Molly at Eichenluft is breeding such crosses. Conversely I know that Dennis at Johnsonhaus did do some some about 10 years ago but I think he is only WL now. It may be good to ask why he quit, but he is not on the forum but Caroline (GSDBESTK9) might know and comment.


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## gagsd

and another Greg vom Maulachtal
also goes back to jenny.


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## gagsd

and here ..... V Tara v. Wildenbruch


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## Discoetheque

Reba is American Show Lines (Darby Dan and Kolbrook), West German Show Lines (Arlett, Kirschental) and some other lines that I'm sure are working, but I don't know from which region. 
Medium drive with an excellent off-switch, she's extremely handler sensitive. She's definitely an interesting dog...no reactivity or unwanted aggression (she'd be more likely to lick you to death than anything), though she has a natural protective instinct and is a good judge of character. She loves to work, loves to get out and do things (particularly anything that involves running for what seems like days). She's extremely polite...doesn't jump on people, doesn't bark a lot, and is good with other dogs and animals (adores cats!)









I'm not sure how much of her personality is genetic/developed and how much is environmental and came from her first eighteen months with her original owners because this dog was in bad shape when she came to us.


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## PatchonGSD

robinhuerta said:


> The SLs...like some of the WLs...are getting too close in lineage.
> I/we decided 3 years ago, to find a WL that we like, research the pedigree & see dogs from it.
> My plans were/are to combine the dogs of "my" breeding program....(dogs that I have generations of first hand knowledge of)...to a sound, stable, healthy WL pedigree.
> I need to "out cross" now to keep health, nerve, and soundness for my future breeding dogs.
> *It is actually a little more *complicated* than that...but I find it is easier to explain in "simple format".
> 
> Kinda like this saying...."Too much of a good thing...can be a bad thing in the end, if you aren't careful."........we've been fortunate in much of our dogs......it is time to *add*...before I start to *lose*.
> I will also add other SL bloodlines......right now, we are looking for good, sound dogs from the Mutz lines to bring back into our program both male & female. We constantly think generations down the road.
> 
> _Breeding isn't only about *TODAY*....it is about *TOMORROW* too..... _


Thanks for the explanation!


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## Liesje

My first GSD was a sable working line female (WGWL and some DDR) and before I owned her (she was given to me by her breeder) she was bred to a WGSL male. I believe there were four puppies in the litter, I could be wrong but I don't think it was a big litter. This was before I got her; she was spayed when I got her. Two of the dogs from her litter are very successful performance dogs. One is a top AKC agility GSD with MACH and other titles. Another is titled in just about everything you can be and even has done some titles in Canada. I believe his owner's favorite thing is tracking but I know he has lots of obedience, rally, conformation, herding, etc. titles.


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## martemchik

I see a lot of nervy crosses at our club. Seems like the dogs with temperament issues are the ones where historically American breeders have decided to throw in a little German into their lines. Now, I'm not sure where the nerves are coming from but these dogs are far from looking show line and acting working line.

I would like to see it done successfully though. I think breeders like Carmen and Robin have the knowledge to do it, the problem is that many of the crosses we do see are what many of us would consider pet line. Dogs thrown together for looks and possibly temperament as "working line" gets a lot more popular in our country. When done right, things could work well but in my experience there has been a lot more bad than good. So if even 1 out of 10 dogs are successful it's still not a good ratio when 9 out of 10 have questionable temperament. But...breeders will well thought out programs and goals know way better than I do about what they're doing. Just that after what I've seen...I really wouldn't take the risk at purchasing one of those pups.


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## carmspack

Robin - GREAT answer . "_Breeding isn't only about *TODAY*....it is about *TOMORROW* too..... " _

_I agree 200% . That is one reason why you invest in multiple generations for a personal breeding program and along the way you bank away generations of genetics of what you want so that you are not totally at the mercy of trends or what is available with important values missing._
_You may not be the go to guy for a period , but then breeding needs to anticipate the total picture , the future , and not breed to satisfy the "market place"._

_So how is your Noche doing ??_

_------_ 

gagsd - the pedigrees that you provided are still working line dogs even though there is an injection of the show lines in the far background. There is a purpose . Many well known working line dogs have Quanto in the background , some Czech dogs with Canto -- I believe it was to gain something .


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## gagsd

I have seen quite a few "working"dogs that go back to Irk Arminius. Need to look them up.

Carmspack, what do you think Quanto brought?


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## PatchonGSD

*GAGSD-* It looks like the dogs you listed are still *mostly* WL dogs?


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## Discoetheque

My mentor and I were discussing lines one night, and she told me that between Canto and Quanto, one brought strong nerve and temperament to the table while the other brought strong drives, and the two lines were brought together for balance. I can't remember for the life of me which brought which. 

My younger girl has Canto, Quanto, Mutz and Gundo in her lines. Whatever they were supposed to bring apparently got here...lol. Because she is an absolute dream to work with.


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## gagsd

PatchonGSD said:


> *GAGSD-* It looks like the dogs you listed are still *mostly* WL dogs?


But someone decided to make that 1/2 and 1/2 mix in the past to get those dogs.
Goes back to what Robin is doing/describing.


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## PatchonGSD

gagsd said:


> But someone decided to make that 1/2 and 1/2 mix in the past to get those dogs.
> Goes back to what Robin is doing/describing.



Oh, OK. I was missing that.  I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this, lol. 

I was just considering 50/50 crosses at the moment but I wasnt thinking about them generations down the line. Thank you for pointing that out.


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## robinhuerta

@ Carmen.....THANK YOU!
Noche is doing VERY well! She surprises us every opportunity she gets.
She is confident, social and has good, solid nerves.
She presents herself calmly to most situations...and "fires" up when needed.
I really like her.....I hope to add her to our program later when she fully matures.
At this time...her 1/2 sister is first in line.
Funny thing.....both sisters have many similar qualities....._yet completely different "personalities"._
Noche is more "defense"....but also can be switched into "prey" mode quickly.
Izzy has more "prey".....but has very nice *fight* drive....she "enjoys" the fight....and Izzy is a very stable, social animal.
_*SIMILAR*...but different too.....make any sense to you? LOL._


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## qbchottu

Unless the breeder understands both lines inside and out, he shouldn't be doing any crosses. I would not take a first generation cross puppy - maybe a green dog at 1.5 years old so I can see the development. Perhaps a puppy one 3 or 4 generations down the line. The ones I have seen are just too unpredictable in terms of traits for me to invest in them just yet. 

Margit van Dorssen at http://www.arlett.com/ is one of the few that have done it successfully. She "gets" it.


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## Vandal

> SG Jenny vom Bayerischen Oberland


I'm not seeing the mix in this pedigree Mary. What are you looking at that I missed?


It was much more common to "mix" the lines years ago. That is because many of the best "working line" dogs were also show dogs. What has changed the most is the show itself and the breeder's goals. There were dogs from "show lines" used successfully with working line dogs and not many people questioned it back then. Now, because both sides have moved in almost complete opposite directions, it is not something that I would do. Of course, with the way things are now, these kinds of breedings could be deemed "successful".

Years ago, I used dogs with show lines. Nowadays, there is little advantage to it IMO. The show line dogs no longer have correct structure. So, what they offered in that regard, is gone. And, the working lines are getting to the point where they need a big infusion of nerve, social aggression and a protective instinct. They are also becoming dogs who are not as willing to work in cooperation with their handlers.

What I see most often in the show line dogs is actually temperament that is more GSD- like in some ways but the big downside, is the nerve and heart of the dogs. They kind of "want" to do the work but are lacking in the areas that allow them to do it. I have seen more lately who seem to have a protective instinct but again, the nerves and lack of courage does not allow them to move forward. Don't really need to say much more. I actually work the dogs as the helper and what I see more often,( in dogs from both lines nowadays), is not really desirable if you want to breed a GSD. Simply looking to mix lines doesn't make much sense. There are things that are badly needed in the breed and that, for me, is what people should be looking for in breeding partners. 

As for Quanto Weinerau. This was a good dog with very good character and in my experience, produced it WHEN BRED CORRECTLY. That is the problem with many dogs but the Canto/Quanto click that started back in the late 70s/80's took that line in the wrong direction. There are very good working line dogs with Quanto in the pedigree, I have a number of them myself. Again, 25 /30 years ago, things were quite a bit different. I saw and worked sons and daughters of Quanto. They were later to mature dogs, and even back then, people could be a bit in a hurry, but all of them had impeccable temperament and were beautiful dogs to look at. Not super drive monsters but a line that definitely had something to offer. The dogs I am talking about were bred to working lines, and were not of the Canto/Quanto variety.... although... I did work a few of those as the helper. They were not terrible dogs but that was way back when things were quite a bit different.


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## robinhuerta

I must say that the biggest benefit we have is that my husband is also a really excellent helper.
He is able to "weed" out dogs that we should not and will not use for breeding.
There is ALOT of things that need to be "considered" when breeding any GSD...from either line. 
Our goal is simple......breed and produce sound dogs from sound stock in both (mind & body)...that we can enjoy certain venues with when we desire.
They should be *capable* of what the breed should be able to do, although some will excel more than others (just a plain fact).....but none the less.....they should be proper German Shepherd Dogs.
Since we don't breed 10-30 litters a year for resell......our program is for ourselves....and our goal is the same. We are looking "years" down the road..today.
I can accept the ridicule and the negative opinions.....everyone is entitled to theirs....but my goals will remain the same.
We feel the need for an out-cross of genetics for "our program" ...and have high anticipations for it.


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## gagsd

Vandal said:


> I'm not seeing the mix in this pedigree Mary. What are you looking at that I missed?


I had that dog bookmarked as a SL/WL mix.... but you are (of course ) correct. Either I mis-marked her, or saw "kirschental" and just assumed. Can't remember which now.


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## Andaka

This is my ASL (3/4) and DDR (1/4) cross. I chose to get him because he was sired by my show dog, and I wanted to keep the line going. Jag is very handler sensitive if I yell, buy he can take a strong leash correction from me without folding. He is fairly high drive -- fast retrieve, fast recall, good at jumping. In a lot of ways he acts like his grandfather Keno.



















http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=653423


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## carmspack

One of the best recent examples that I know personally and have seen in every situation , trial and home-life was a combination that was done with sister to Carmspack Kilo (french ring brevet bh ad) Katiana Carmspack Kilo
Linda Shaw and I co-owned Katiana who she refers to as Katja /Katia . Prior to taking on Katia she had a gorgeous "american show line dog" Wiesental Corry Mensenredder -
"Corry" . I knew Linda over 35 years ago when we were both training with our dogs at Ontarios first schutzhund club. I was training with a french ring club and was really excited about it , very dedicated going out 3 - 4 times a week - training and observing - dogs and handlers . Linda looked in to the club and shortly after joined also , with her show line Corry who was given no leniency in the evaluation or training , no accommodation . And he did well , very very well, better than west german show line dogs , better than the passel of leerburg (frawley) largely Sagus/Greif concentration dogs (which was a trend at the time). Bear in mind this goes back almost 20 years now and the show lines were different than those current. 
I knew Corry's background and had admired the dogs in his background having seen entire litters and knowing them to be sound , sane, stable, adaptable , healthy vigorous , beautiful specimens. When you do a pedigree search you see two links to Klodo Eremitenklause V Klodo aus der Eremitenklause and I believe Eko-Lans Paladen was in there a few times. 
So a breeding was done to her "Corry" and my Katiana and the result was her beloved "Timmy" who passed away just shy of 14 years -- Timmy with the registered name of Shawlein Easter Parade (of all things!) -- an ambassador for the breed where ever he went . A dog with high threshold , handler forgiveness, balance , drive, presence, and conformation -- training in french ring , then when that club scene fizzled she and I switched to schutzhund - Kilo almost 10 years . She easily earned the Sch H 3 . Here is a record of those dogs , Corry, Timmy, and Katiana Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs

At french ring - we had guests coming in for training , and trialing from Michigan -- Cheryl Carlson and some members of her club. The dogs she brought along were either total "american" or cross with the gsd of the time - 20 plus years ago which is a different show line than now - probably still had Quanto really close up - 
I asked her , as I do just about everyone whether the dog is good or bad , what was the pedigree. Those dogs had Eko-lans Paladen . Cheryls competition dog at the time was Sebastian which I had the pleasure watching in training and trailing and the dog was awesome ! Cheryl was my "decoy" for the defense of handler portion in the first Campagne trial. The gun was to be shot in the air , meanwhile she fired parallel to Kilo's ears -- I am sure he went deaf because I sure did , my ears were ringing for a long time ! (yes he did release) . Cheryl played the role of a gypsy woman in long flowing skirt , carrying a basket , being normal in behaviour - just a woman shopping at the market , then showing her real bad assailant side .
History


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## DTS

Jasmine is czech and WGSL mix. When i was looking for a puppy i had no idea what lines were or that there were working vs. showlines.
She is very reactive. at 6 months she began fear barking. Couldn't get near anyone or anything because she would bark. 
After 2 years, we can go places, pass people, other dogs, etc without a peep.
however, she still doesnt really like to be touched and can be approached but if they stick their hand out she will back away and may bark
if they look her in the eye, she looses it. 
She is better with women than men.
Has low/medium drive and if i let her will lay around all day long except for the occasional play session. 
when people come over, she has to be put up or she barks and will low growl with no teeth or hackles, with high value treats and being on leash she will warm up to people but we normally just will put her away. 
but once she knows you, she is a great companion and loves my parents and my BF's parents

here is her pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/dog.html?id=689307

and a phone pic


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## carmspack

the most important thing is to be brutal in the evaluation of the pups and ONLY go forward with the ones that pass , without compromise AND come from litters with similar traits . So not the exceptional dog -- . 
I have pointed out dogs from show line in recent past threads that embody these traits. This is one dog that caught my attention WilmothHaus - WenzelMozilla/4.0 (vBSEO; http://www.vbseo.com)

I keep an eye on things . 
My friend , Ruth Yeulett tends to blend tested and selected show lines into my working concentration . I care because I tend to get offspring maybe two three generations away from that mix and fold it back in to my own, and two three generations away from that Ruth will get one and continue . Her last "find" took her 18 months and several people doing the evaluation . Previously she relied on Olympus (Olaffson - spelling?) - so for purposes of explanation if you were to look at Carmspack Sumo -- (and I could not ask for a better dog) brother to Laurel's Journey recently BH , you will see Carmspack Sumo 
Bazita von Olympus Bazita vom Olympus which is show , but there was a great deal of thought put into selecting Bazita , who brings in old HERDING lines through Kirschental and Marko Cellerland so is highly complementary to the direction of my, our, overall breeding attempts.

Quanto brought a good solid temperament with desire to work. 


Quna


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## carmspack

you can not mix show and work and like hot and cold and expect perfect temp --- some pedigrees have no business being put together --


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## martemchik

So would the breeders agree that this is something that should be looked at with even more care than a regular WL/WL or SL/SL breeding?

Like carmen said, its another study of pedigrees and that's how every breeding should be taken but this seems like it has a lot more variables and a lot more risk involved. So is it even worth doing? I'm happy to hear that there are breeders that have had success...but are these successes due to their expertise or just blind luck in a certain way.

We've had a majority of posters point out how their dogs aren't the greatest...and then we've had some posters point out dogs that they don't really know but just have heard of them/seen them. So without knowing the breeder/their knowledge, I think that these mixes are a huge risk...we can all approve of Carmen or Robin doing these as we have a nice understanding of their knowledge, but then just some random breeder? I wouldn't trust them.


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## Liesje

Personally I wouldn't buy ANY dog from someone I felt was "just some random breeder." I would not be any more likely to buy a straight up WL or straight up SL if I didn't think the puppy would be a fit.

Another thing to keep in mind is that breeders aren't really breeding to sell YOU a dog but many times they are breeding for themselves. Again look at what Robin is doing. She has talked about her intentions before and has thought through several generations of her breedings. She is not the only one doing this. I know breeders who have to do a generation or two before they can get to the breeding they *really* have in mind. Whether or not you or anyone likes the pedigree or the puppies doesn't really matter because as surprising as it may be, for some people breeding isn't just about producing puppies for other people to buy.


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## robinhuerta

One must be willing to keep and breed from ONLY what is exceptional from the cross also.....if nothing is "worthy"...the buck stops there with that combination....no exceptions.
There should also be a "direction" to follow AFTER a cross breeding.....
Cross breeding's are not a "moments thought process"...as no breeding should ever be.
I don't think one should be *more careful* when breeding a "cross lineage" than a *non cross* breeding......I think one should be just as careful in both.
We have bred great dogs, good dogs but have also had some......well, ...lets just say....NOT what we had hoped for. We have produced most dogs with no health issues.....but we have also had a few "heart breakers", over the past years.....it still all comes down to genetics, nature and luck.

Without new genetics being introduced to help strengthen a program.....a program will eventually become the same dogs over and over again, generation and generations combined...(_and not just 5,6,7 etc. generations back_)...that will sooner or later...ONLY produce an abundance of health & mental inadequacies.

Again...this is just MY OPINION, and goals...it is not meant to "choose paths" for anyone else, or take away from anyone else's opinion.

@ Lies....Thanks! I'm glad you understand MY goals...even if they are not the most popular. LOL!


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## Freestep

robinhuerta said:


> I/we decided 3 years ago, to find a WL that we like, research the pedigree & see dogs from it.


If you don't mind, could you tell us what bloodline you chose, and why that particular line should "click" well with the bloodlines you have? This could be very educational. 



llombardo said:


> She has the bitch stripe, which I believe is strictly a german line thing.


It's not strictly a German line thing. GSD bitches across the board can have the bitch stripe, European or American. It's common in black & tan saddlebacks, sometimes even males have it.


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## Mrs.K

robinhuerta said:


> Popular or not......I will be doing a "cross-breeding" of WL x SL.
> I need to bring in new genetics into my SL breeding dogs....
> I plan on keeping back a female from the breeding for myself.....so time will tell, if the combination was/is successful.



Robin, my parents used to have a couple of Show and Working line crosses as well. Asko vom Siegelgrund was one heck of a dog and had Showline in him. 

Not all showline crosses are bad crosses. You *KNOW *what you are doing, so don't let the nay sayers get to you.


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## martemchik

I get that every breeder has a goal...and more than likely if all breeders thought that way we'd have a lot less problem dogs than we do right now. But...when you get a litter of 10 puppies you're not really keeping them all. And its great when you are dealing with people like Robin who care about their puppies and the families they sell them to, but what if you get a breeder that is testing something out and then just places their dogs in families (using their good reputation) and the dogs really don't work out or have issues but the breeder doesn't care?

It's kind of like...what if the breeding doesn't go the way it was expected from the pedigree and then there are 10 crazy pups out there...do you think this risk is higher with a cross than a non-cross? From what I've seen the risks are higher when you're dealing with breeders that aren't as knowledgeable as the ones we know, or the ones we would purchase from, but still breeders that I would consider reputable and successful.


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## Liesje

What if....I mean we could sit here all day and make up what ifs. I don't know the answer to your questions and I don't think anyone does. Either you trust your breeder and are willing to work with them or not. If not then move on to someone else and don't worry about what other people are doing.

Do I think the risk is higher? Personally, no, because not many people are even trying crosses and I see plenty of nutjob dogs that are pure this line or that line already.


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## martemchik

Liesje said:


> Do I think the risk is higher? Personally, no, because not many people are even trying crosses and I see plenty of nutjob dogs that are pure this line or that line already.


Lol that's what I'm trying to see...people with more experience and actual breeders that have thought about these things. Thanks for your answer!

And yeah, I wouldn't do it myself, or probably purchase from a breeder that does it, but that's my decision and like we always say...support who you want with your money.


----------



## Mrs.K

martemchik said:


> Lol that's what I'm trying to see...people with more experience and actual breeders that have thought about these things. Thanks for your answer!
> 
> And yeah, I wouldn't do it myself, or probably purchase from a breeder that does it, but that's my decision and like we always say...support who you want with your money.



Every litter is a test because you never, never, never know what you'll get. Yeah, the papers say you should be getting this or that, but we are dealing and gambling with the Nature and as much as the papers say one thing, the living creature in front of you may say something completely different. 

So what do you do with dogs who didn't pan out the way you expected to? 
If the breeders pts a litter, can you imagine the outcry? 
If they place them with families, they are irresponsible as well. 

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


----------



## Discoetheque

As unpopular as my view might be, I've said it multiple times before and will say it again: I would love to see thoughtfully-bred working-show crosses out in the world. I would love to see our breed become just that: a breed, and not a battleground of lines anymore. If the show lines can work, and the working lines can compete successfully in conformation, and it's about the preservation of our breed, then what other reason is there not to do it? Why should a good working highline or a VA rated working line be an anomaly that high praises should be sung to?


----------



## Liesje

I don't really "get" most of them either, but I can't sit here and say that anecdotally I've seen more nutty crosses than pure WL or SL because that hasn't been true, so I'll give breeders the benefit of the doubt that just because they aren't on this forum explaining themselves doesn't mean they don't have a carefully considered goal in mind.


----------



## Carriesue

My pup is a cross and so far he is amazing... Luckily my breeder knows what she's doing and has been doing this longer then I've been alive.

Granted he's only 9 weeks old but so far his temperament is excellent, he does not spook to anything I've exposed him to yet, he house broke in basically the first day and he learned sit in about two minutes. Obviously time will tell how he truly is but I have high hopes.

I could understand someone who does IPO or a similar sport might not like this cross... I can tell already that he is extremely mellow. If I was going to do something like that I would get a full WL.


----------



## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> Every litter is a test because you never, never, never know what you'll get. Yeah, the papers say you should be getting this or that, but we are dealing and gambling with the Nature and as much as the papers say one thing, the living creature in front of you may say something completely different.
> 
> So what do you do with dogs who didn't pan out the way you expected to?
> If the breeders pts a litter, can you imagine the outcry?
> If they place them with families, they are irresponsible as well.
> 
> Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



Exactly. I'm not trying to say crosses are good and people should go out and do them but I don't get why they are any worse or more risky than *any* breeding that isn't carefully planned out or why the end result is so much worse, if there are nutty or unhealthy puppies, than any SL or WL litter that produces the same result? Every breeder learns a lot from their dogs and their lines every time they have a litter. I've seen breeders that I do respect and trust produce puppies I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole but you live and learn.


----------



## Catu

jocoyn said:


> My cross had plenty of drive as did his showline mother. He was just scared of his own shadow. I tried to start SAR with him, but he was dog reactive, did not like strange men, even though he had been socialized with them and had only good experiences, and I worked with him for months and washed him the day it took him 30 minutes to "get over" a strange peice of styrofoam in the woods.


You are just describing Bagheera de Alsuvival, whom I raised up to 8 months old and still work with her at least twice a week. I did my best to treat her like one of my own, doing everything within the pack and socializing as extensively as possible, but I just could never get past the reactivity and the anxiety. I have to be honest and say I don't miss her the littlest now she lives with her owner.

I love, love her father, but after meeting her mother 2 weeks ago... it explains everything. I can't say the cross itself is the problem, simply that female should have never been bred and the father can't do miracles.


----------



## cliffson1

I think that experienced and knowledgable breeders can pull it off....but remember all experienced breeders aren't necessarily knowledgable breeders to my way of thinking. The other thing is if you are going to mix the two both parents need to have solid nerve and if SL mother, you need to have rock solid nerve in the mother. What often happens is people take a less than stellar tempered dog,(like a soft dog or reserved or lacking in confidence) and then breed to the other side looking to pick up temperament....sounds good on paper and in conversation, but is faulty in application. Yet I see experienced breeders do this. You can take any breeding and take one or two pups and showcase them as indicative of the greatness.....but when it comes to the important traits of the breed...I want a litter to ha 6 out of 8 pups good; rather than 2 out of 8 and the two represent success. Hey, but thats my take. And this is just from a phenotype POV....there still is the complimenting of the genetics.


----------



## PatchonGSD

*Well, I'm sure this is a stupid question-but I'm going to ask it.

If the three lines, Am line, working, and show all derived from the same stock at one point, why is it impossible to think that all three lines could (maybe even should) be brought back together again to have "just" the GSD and not all these "types?" Each line does seem like it has something valuable to offer. Has each line just been to far bred into "itself" for this to ever happen?*


----------



## björn

I guess todays showlines have not much to offer breedingwise if a workingdog is what you want. However, there are some nice workingdogs wich have some influence of "showdogs" from the 80s.

Two examples that I can think of here in sweden are these two policedogs that have some showlines of not to long ago, their offspring have lived on in certain kennels,
Jebas Erax

This is more or less a 50% cross I suppose, the showline bitch ikegården pennie however had two litters with the same male that was good and in their turn was used in breedings,
Lindemans Azco

I guess "showline cross" is also a matter of definition, if the dog have done other things than show the last 4-5 generations, is it still a showline cross even if it has some showlines from the 70-80s?
Like this dog, quite popular here and very nice in my opinion, 
KORAD Kurants Nemo


----------



## elisabeth_00117

Knowing what I know now, I would of never of went with the cross that I did.

Stark's dam is a SUPER soft female, lacks confidence and is handler sensitive to the extreme. She is not reactive and actually loves people and other dogs. She has okay prey drive but is not one for toys, etc. Not a dog who would willingly work for their handler just because.

Now, Stark's father is a pretty tough guy. He is rock solid in nerve, confident, eager to please, even though I would not consider him a high drive dog, I would say high of medium drive with a high threshold. He has a good defense drive with crushing, sure grips, nothing rattles him. 

I think that if done right, if the pedigrees were looked at carefully and a plan in place for the future (like Robin) it "could" work. 

For me, with my experience, I won't do it again.

I am not sure if this is the right terminology or not, but I almost feel like the showline mother could not handle the sire's genetics. Like the nerve base of the female could not handle the sire's genetics? Not sure how to say it..

Stark if he had a little more drive and a better nerve base, would be an ideal GSD.. but he lacks in both areas. He has NO environmental issues at all - never had - but when it comes to people.. yes. It's almost like the natural suspicion from his sires side and his dams lack of nerve base is the root cause for this. The only difference in the sire and Stark is that the sire has the nerve and confidence behind the suspicion, also a higher threshold to contain 'the reaction'. Not sure if what I am trying to say is coming out in any understandable way.. ?


----------



## wolfstraum

gagsd said:


> Here are some mixes that seem to have been successful.
> 
> Chuck
> V Chuck vom Dorneburger Bach
> 
> Jenny
> SG Jenny vom Bayerischen Oberland
> 
> Art:
> Max ze Stribrneho kamene


I would not call Chuck a Working x Show cross as the 'show' dog was born in 1989 and is 3 generations back....a breeder brought in showlines to improve conformation and kept going with WL......Chuck, who I personally know, is stable as they come, has good pigment (sable, but patterned) and is of terrific character. He lives with Furi, 2 yorkies and children. He is totally trustworthy with the family. He is V in conformation, and that is IMO why the showline was brought in esp as it was mixed with Mink....

Max on the other hand is a second generation cross.....he is super good looking, has a very strong work ethic and from what I know, social aggression is much higher than prey, which is common in the progeny and grand progeny of Bemoan Bee (I know several owners of dogs from this kennel)

The reason to do a working x show cross is to bring in characteristics to a program and go forward...it is a means to an end....

Unfortunately, people (not Robin!!!) do it just to sell pups - pushing the best of both combined in one....I would never suggest a 1st gen cross to someone wanting to do sport or train, as there is no predictability in what genetics will surface....a few generations down, the breeder has "fixed" the traits which he desired to bring in, and returned to the WL gene pool 

Lee


----------



## PatchonGSD

Anyone?



PatchonGSD said:


> *Well, I'm sure this is a stupid question-but I'm going to ask it.
> 
> If the three lines, Am line, working, and show all derived from the same stock at one point, why is it impossible to think that all three lines could (maybe even should) be brought back together again to have "just" the GSD and not all these "types?" Each line does seem like it has something valuable to offer. Has each line just been to far bred into "itself" for this to ever happen?*


----------



## Catu

PatchonGSD said:


> *Well, I'm sure this is a stupid question-but I'm going to ask it.
> 
> If the three lines, Am line, working, and show all derived from the same stock at one point, why is it impossible to think that all three lines could (maybe even should) be brought back together again to have "just" the GSD and not all these "types?" Each line does seem like it has something valuable to offer. Has each line just been to far bred into "itself" for this to ever happen?*


I guess that for the same reason you can't breed all breeds together and came back with a wolf.


----------



## martemchik

PatchonGSD said:


> *Well, I'm sure this is a stupid question-but I'm going to ask it.
> 
> If the three lines, Am line, working, and show all derived from the same stock at one point, why is it impossible to think that all three lines could (maybe even should) be brought back together again to have "just" the GSD and not all these "types?" Each line does seem like it has something valuable to offer. Has each line just been to far bred into "itself" for this to ever happen?*


The reason is that judges in the different rings look for different things. American Shepherds need to have a certain look, German SL need to have a certain look, and working line need to have certain drives in order to get the high scores in trialing.

Because breeders are people, they want to succeed in whatever ring they choose to show in. There are set traditions in those rings that only certain dogs will succeed in them. So when you start mixing in lines, that first or second generation is probably not going to win many conformation titles/get high ratings. By the time you get to a 3rd or 4th...you have a higher chance because you can "dilute" the WL look enough while hopefully still keeping the drives. This is why Robin has such a long goal...and how carmen talked about bringing "back" the lines after a 3rd or 4th generation.


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## Whiteshepherds

Can someone give an example of a breeder producing American Shepherds?


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## gagsd

A fob member that breeds American line....
redrockgsd.com


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## doggiedad

working line / show line, you're going to have
a gorgeous dog that can do it all.


----------



## Lucy Dog

Interesting thread... 

My Lucy is a cross. All WGSL on the sire side and mostly a mix of working lines on the dam side. Great dog. Solid nerve. Not quite sure how she'd do on a real working/training field since I've never attempted it. More than enough prey drive. No unwanted aggression. Nice off switch. Great in crowds around all types of different people - old, young, big, small, etc. All around great dog for what I was looking for. Absolutely no complaints about her. 

My next pup will most likely be a cross too, but from a different breeder. I've had my name down for a litter for some time now that I'm very excited about. Possibly even a cross being discussed in this thread , so obviously, I would do it again.


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## Andaka

Whiteshepherds said:


> Can someone give an example of a breeder producing American Shepherds?


What do you mean by American Shepherds?


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## martemchik

American Shepherd = ASL. Sorry for the confusion.


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## carmspack

Personally I would not look to show lines for myself . " So without knowing the breeder/their knowledge, I think that these mixes are a huge risk...we can all approve of Carmen or Robin doing these as we have a nice understanding of their knowledge, but then just some random breeder? I wouldn't trust them. "
This is one of those cases where looking at the first 3 generations means little -- you have to go back and see what the value is , which is why I offered Bazita Olympus , who reveals some nice herding contribution from older Kirschental breeding and Marko , which complemented the direction and the genetics already present in the rest of the pedigree (which comes from my working). Do the dogs work - yes, human remains and many SAR (rcmp standard certifications). 
By the time I get them (the show lines) I have inhereted them usually in the 3rd or 4th generation. 
In the examples I have provided the infusion of show line comes through from the sire side , and, very importantly the dam side is something long familiar and purposefully developed through several generations . 
In the Sumo pedigree , looking at Bazita Olympus , her sire Quiz Olympus made a positive impression when being worked , as did his sire Nord and good reports of Rondo being worked . The workability was always important . The breeding was not done on a whim or for the sake of some 50/50 mix. The dog had to bring something positive to the table overall . Then on pedigree examination Rondo Batu brings in excellent working and herding genetics through Xitta Kirchental (to Blanka Mummelsee ) consecutive generations working herding dogs , plus Isa Kirschental bringing in Eros Busecker Schloss which brings in Bernd Lierberg and a line going back to Centa Busecker Schloss , herding . Plus a line through Isa to Dori Wanderschaferei . So Isa brings in Dori W and Blanka Mummelsee - these are good herding genetics !! Through Rondo Batu you also have Lasso di val Sole who , like his sire Quanto had good character and could work and produced some nice working , good balanced , working dogs of that day and era . In other words not extreme , or the specialized over the top sharper , faster , more and more that we see today . Rondo brought in Anderl von Kleinen Pfahl's sister Anda . Andrel is sire to Enno Beilstein , which connects to Isa Kirschental (as above) (so working with proven combinations) . Anda and Anderl being Mutz offspring -- , when the gsd was more unified -- the rip in the fabric was just happening . Orlanda Kirschental brought Dingo haus Gero , Marko Cellerland, and the herding line through Nimi Kirschental (as did Rondo) this through the sire, and Orlanda's dam bottom line is successive herding lines through old Kirscental .
Here is a problem . You have a good male V rated show conformation, OFA excellent , SchH 3 and CDX and CERF, VWD health clearance , producer of two V's --- and he barely gets used because everyone wants to breed to the VA imports - the best new (often inbred or tight linebred Canto lines) German show winner -- . 
This is a good pedigree that he had to offer .
Even the bottom line of Bazita brings in Mutz and another combination of A-Kleinen Pfahl.

So in this case there was a definite plan and reason to bring in Bazita Olympus and a plan in what to do to use it in the next generations.


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## Whiteshepherds

martemchik said:


> American Shepherd = ASL. Sorry for the confusion.


My fault. I thought you had written American Shepherd, SL and working lines.


----------



## carmspack

hi Bjorn - you , and wolfstraum and myself have mentioned "show" lines back in the late 80's early 90's .

you said "
I guess todays showlines have not much to offer breedingwise if a workingdog is what you want. However, there are some nice workingdogs wich have some influence of "showdogs" from the 80s.

Two examples that I can think of here in sweden are these two policedogs that have some showlines of not to long ago, their offspring have lived on in certain kennels,
Jebas Erax

This is more or less a 50% cross I suppose, the showline bitch ikegården pennie however had two litters with the same male that was good and in their turn was used in breedings,
Lindemans Azco

I guess "showline cross" is also a matter of definition, if the dog have done other things than show the last 4-5 generations, is it still a showline cross even if it has some showlines from the 70-80s?
Like this dog, quite popular here and very nice in my opinion, 
KORAD Kurants Nemo "

the other huge advantage that your dogs in Sweden have is that they are run through the Mentality tests which you can not train for , and the results are posted in public forum for all to see , good and bad . 

I know Whio's Greve Goliat , tried to get a pup from him - 

wolfstraum I agree "would not call Chuck a Working x Show cross as the 'show' dog was born in 1989 and is 3 generations back....a breeder brought in showlines to improve conformation and kept going with WL"

would not have said "Jenny" was a working / show cross , nor would I have included Max as an example of a cross -- the show dogs in the Bemoan (dams) portion are the dogs of the late 80's early 90's , and actually here we have some nice herding lines also Kirschental (which was already mixing show and the old herding in the early 80's, and Marko Cellerland . 

agree with Vandal "It was much more common to "mix" the lines years ago. That is because many of the best "working line" dogs were also show dogs. What has changed the most is the show itself and the breeder's goals. There were dogs from "show lines" used successfully with working line dogs and not many people questioned it back then. Now, because both sides have moved in almost complete opposite directions, it is not something that I would do. Of course, with the way things are now, these kinds of breedings could be deemed "successful".

Years ago, I used dogs with show lines. Nowadays, there is little advantage to it IMO. The show line dogs no longer have correct structure. So, what they offered in that regard, is gone. And, the working lines are getting to the point where they need a big infusion of nerve, social aggression and a protective instinct. They are also becoming dogs who are not as willing to work in cooperation with their handlers."

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


----------



## JakodaCD OA

Daphne (andaka) has produced some very nice american show line dogs that have been very versatile. Maybe she'll post some pics of them for you


----------



## cliffson1

IF I was to ever do a contemporary show working breeding again.....it would definitely be with a WL female and SL sire. Also, I think you can get away with DDR / WGSL combinations, as today's DDR dogs are overall softer than 25 years ago and will not overload the other side. You can't really compare Sweden as much, to my way of thinking, because they have not bred for the polarization that the ASl,WGSL, or WGWL/Czech lines except in Europe and U.S. Like Robin said...you breed for today and tomorrow, and I try to not introduce concentrated anything that is negative...cause you are destined to produce litter with the negative having too high an occurrence for my tastes. Course that's the way I see it and others do things differently and it's all cool.


----------



## Vandal

> I would never suggest a 1st gen cross to someone wanting to do sport or train, as there is no predictability in what genetics will surface....a few generations down, the breeder has "fixed" the traits which he desired to bring in, and returned to the WL gene pool


 
If the first generation is that bad, the breeding should not have happened in the first place. 
I have heard things like this said before but as someone who has seen a number of crosses some years back, I will say what Lee just said, didn't happen. Not to the breeders who knew good dogs anyway. Doubtful it happened with the line that Chuck goes back to either. The ones I saw and the breedings I did, produced really good dogs. However, the dogs back then were different and it wasn't a case of just planning to cross show lines with working lines or trying to compensate for big problems or weaknesses in temperament. There was a purpose for the breeding. The dogs complimented each other. Nowadays, what Lee said probably would happen and is why , (in most cases), I would argue against it. 


If the two dogs are of breeding caliber, the litter should not be a huge crap shoot. I have not seen many show line dogs who impressed me in the last fifteen years....(and yes, I am talking about working dogs, not pets). Before that, I saw a number of good show line dogs and dogs who were the result of crosses. Many worked as well as the working lines do now. The working lines were even better and were much stronger dogs than the working lines today....and I am talking about nerves, courage, intelligence and working ability. They looked good too. When you had that going on, you could combine the lines and get very good results. The breedings were not done to adjust huge weaknesses, so, it didn't take generations to "fix" the result of those breedings. Yeah everyone looks a little down the road but I personally, am not trying to make the road longer, while getting less some miles later. 

Back then, you were adding SL dogs who were in the line a couple of times. Now we have pedigrees where every line leads to those dogs and they can be seen as much as 20 times in a pedigree. Not to mention, the weaker dogs from those lines have not been weeded out. They have been promoted and bred. So, there are more problems than it might look like ..... if you ask me.


----------



## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> hi Bjorn - you , and wolfstraum and myself have mentioned "show" lines back in the late 80's early 90's .
> 
> you said "
> I guess todays showlines have not much to offer breedingwise if a workingdog is what you want. However, there are some nice workingdogs wich have some influence of "showdogs" from the 80s.
> 
> Two examples that I can think of here in sweden are these two policedogs that have some showlines of not to long ago, their offspring have lived on in certain kennels,
> Jebas Erax
> 
> This is more or less a 50% cross I suppose, the showline bitch ikegården pennie however had two litters with the same male that was good and in their turn was used in breedings,
> Lindemans Azco
> 
> I guess "showline cross" is also a matter of definition, if the dog have done other things than show the last 4-5 generations, is it still a showline cross even if it has some showlines from the 70-80s?
> Like this dog, quite popular here and very nice in my opinion,
> KORAD Kurants Nemo "
> 
> the other huge advantage that your dogs in Sweden have is that they are run through the Mentality tests which you can not train for ,  and the results are posted in public forum for all to see , good and bad .
> 
> (...)
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


Another good example is Asko vom Siegelgrund. Before he was sold to the US he was Heinz's dog. I think he was one of the youngest dogs, ever participating in the German Nationals and Heinz was a darn good handler and also a judge. 

Fun fact, it's also where I have Nala from. Very good friend of the family.

Asko vom Siegelgrund - working-dog.eu

Also, Nala is one of the examples that has Showline in the back via Nora vom Flutgraben. Nora is a Jello von der Wienerau daughter. I'm always joking that that is where she's got her beautiful coat from. 
Nala vom Kassler Kreuz - working-dog.eu


----------



## KristiM

I have a Chuck son, so I guess he is 1/8 showline lol. I was kind of concerned about it though in researching the pedigree and asked a lot about Biene, who was apparently a lovely, stable dog. Havoc is a dog with a very strong, dominant personality but I do find that he has a lower threshold and he is turning out to be a lot stockier than I personally like (the amount of "body" most showlines have is one of my least favorite things about them.)


----------



## Andaka

JakodaCD OA said:


> Daphne (andaka) has produced some very nice american show line dogs that have been very versatile. Maybe she'll post some pics of them for you


Thanks Diane, but I don't think anyone is interested.


----------



## robinhuerta

Daphne....I am always interested in learning about "good" dogs from ANY lineage. Please feel free to post pics and info......I may not post often on the forum anymore, or even engage with debates...but I do come and read to learn....ALWAYS my favorite thing to do!


----------



## PatchonGSD

Andaka said:


> Thanks Diane, but I don't think anyone is interested.



I am very interested! Please share!


----------



## holland

Andaka said:


> Thanks Diane, but I don't think anyone is interested.


Its too bad that you feel that way-I would be interested. I believe that my rescue dog may have been American lines-she was a wonderful dog


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## gagsd

Daphne, 
My Kenju's "great-aunt" was Atalanta's Mystique (sp?) He was also Kirschental lines. So a "mix".

I had many people over the years comment on what a nice German Shepherd he was. Even a few top schutzhund competitors/trainers.


----------



## Andaka

OK, here goes.

This is Multi Ch. Andaka-Zederland's Keno UD HSAs OA Can CD HTD1 HRD1 TT OFA HECT





































CH (US/CAN/INT/NAT) Andaka-Zederland's Keno


----------



## Andaka

This is Keno's daughter Kizzy.

Ch. Andaka-Zederland's This Kiss HSAs RHIT 2002 GSDCA National herding trial RE OFA





































CH Andaka-Zederland's This Kiss


----------



## KristiM

Nice looking dogs Andaka!

I personally don't see the problem with having different lines. It's like having different breeds to choose from. I don't see anything wrong with having different types within a breed. Everyone prefers something different and I honestly don't get why people "battle" over what's best, no type is better than the other, just different. Just because *I* prefer a certain type of dog doesn't make the other types better or worse. If you are breeding dogs with sound body and mind then who cares what type it is. JMO.


----------



## Andaka

And one more

Am/Can Ch (and Herding Group Winner) Andaka-Zederland's U R It CD (HIT) RAE2

















pictured at 9 years of age at the 2009 GSDCA National Specialty



















CH (US/CAN) Andaka-Zederland's U R It


----------



## PatchonGSD

Wow Daphne, your dogs are gorgeous!


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## Andaka

Thank you. But the important thing is not that they are pretty, but that they can do things too. Tag was my service dog when I fell down the stairs at my house and hurt myself pretty badly. Tag would pick up things that I dropped, help me to get up from a chair, and carry things like groceries and trash cans. That was on top of 102 Best of Breeds ( the last 2 from the Veterans class)and 25 Group placings (4 Group firsts). He also was a therapy dog, did Bite Prevention talks to children, and loved to lure course.


----------



## björn

As been said I guess the difference is that there was less of a split between the showdog and workingdog people in the 70-80s, so a good working gsd from more showoriented lines was not that uncommon. It seems many workingdog people who started breeding at that time did so with workingdogs that may had more or less influence of showlines. For example this dog, placed 7th at WUSV 2001 and was the youngest dog there I believe, his grandmother passat biggie was a tough female this breeder started with,

KORAD Raskabo Maxxon

This dog is a policedog and have lindemans asco quite close upp on his mother side and also some more dogs that I guess could be called german showlines further back on his mothers side,




Barvatorp's Nova

This dog was a WUSV champion,
Xabarovsk Bacteroides

Seen other nice dogs from that same kennel with showlines, like this one,
G Bacteroides Zapp


----------



## cliffson1

In the late seventies I bred to a Ernie Loeb owned dog named Ywan v Wiesenborn. His dam was Welle v Kirschental. Welle was out of Canto vd Wienerau and her dam was Vrigga v Kirschental, HGH. Vrigga was out of Bernd v Lierberg and Blanka v Mummelsee. I am looking at this pedigree right now. This was a breeding of Show( Canto) and Show/Work( Bernd), and Herding( Kirschental/Mummelsee)......my point is when these were mixed back then none of the lines were saturated to the point they are today....so they often produced dogs that were successful in work, show, or trial.


----------



## Freestep

Andaka said:


> Thank you. But the important thing is not that they are pretty, but that they can do things too. Tag was my service dog when I fell down the stairs at my house and hurt myself pretty badly. Tag would pick up things that I dropped, help me to get up from a chair, and carry things like groceries and trash cans. That was on top of 102 Best of Breeds ( the last 2 from the Veterans class)and 25 Group placings (4 Group firsts). He also was a therapy dog, did Bite Prevention talks to children, and loved to lure course.


Awesome! Why can't all ASL people be like you? He's nice looking, too... more moderate in angulation, and nice feet! 



björn said:


> As been said I guess the difference is that there was less of a split between the showdog and workingdog people in the 70-80s, so a good working gsd from more showoriented lines was not that uncommon.


I can remember when it meant something to have a German import. I even remember police K9s coming from what we could call "show lines" now.



KristiM said:


> I personally don't see the problem with having different lines. It's like having different breeds to choose from.



The problem is when the lines become so extreme in a particular way that they are no longer what the breed is supposed to be... when the dog no longer resembles the standard, there is something missing. In show lines, conformation is extreme and temperament may be lacking; in working lines, temperament is extreme and conformation may be lacking. Each camp believes their preferred line is the "true" GSD, and that the others are going in the wrong direction.


Personally, I would like to see a "total" GSD that is not extreme in any direction, but can do anything. Our breed is meant to be a jack of all trades, a versatile, trainable, courageous and trustworthy companion. 

Across the board, the biggest problem I see in GSDs is weak nerves. I think that if crossing the lines is to be done, solid nerve should be the #1 priority.


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## Mrs.K

This might be very interesting for all of you. 


RSV2000 .:. Zuchtlinien des Deutschen Schäferhundes unterscheiden sich genetisch
follow the link, all the material is in English 

There has been a study on it and there is a complete genetic differentiation between Show and Working lines.


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## Debbieg

Andaka said:


> Thanks Diane, but I don't think anyone is interested.


 
I am!


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## KristiM

Freestep said:


> Personally, I would like to see a "total" GSD that is not extreme in any direction, but can do anything. Our breed is meant to be a jack of all trades, a versatile, trainable, courageous and trustworthy companion.
> 
> Across the board, the biggest problem I see in GSDs is weak nerves. I think that if crossing the lines is to be done, solid nerve should be the #1 priority.


I don't neccesarily disagree with you, but who are these "moderate" GSDs for? I hardly think that a lot of sport/working people are going to malinois because they want a more "moderate" dog. I don't want a dog that is OK at sports and I'm sure show people don't want a dog that does OK in the show ring. If people change what they believe is desirable the dogs will follow. 

I wholeheartedly agree that nerves need to be improved upon in all lines (but I don't think mixing lines will neccesarily accomplish that) and health really needs to be improved upon. I would say that 50-75% of the GSDs that I know personally in both lines have various health issues.


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## Freestep

Mrs.K said:


> RSV2000 .:. Zuchtlinien des Deutschen Schäferhundes unterscheiden sich genetisch
> follow the link, all the material is in English
> 
> There has been a study on it and there is a complete genetic differentiation between Show and Working lines.


From the above link, boiled down:

"On a DNA level two subpopulations can be identified in the breed: the show line and the working line. "

Meaning, we can look at a GSD's DNA to tell whether it is a working line, a show line, or a mix of the two. 

Nothing we couldn't do by looking at a pedigree,  but it's interesting that the breed has such a wide split that even the DNA reflects it.


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## Freestep

KristiM said:


> who are these "moderate" GSDs for? I hardly think that a lot of sport/working people are going to malinois because they want a more "moderate" dog. I don't want a dog that is OK at sports and I'm sure show people don't want a dog that does OK in the show ring.


Well, that's the problem--the system in America (and Europe too, maybe to a lesser degree) is geared to reward the most extreme of everything in competition. The flashiest, the fastest, the hardest, the most "whatever", as long as it's the MOST. 

But I don't think the GSD was intended to be that way. Stephanitz emphasized that the GSD was to be best at nothing, and second best at everything. 

That doesn't quite fit into the nature of competition, though.

Stephanitz also said that he wanted the GSD to remain a WORKING dog, not a show dog, or a sport dog. SchH was to be a test of breedworthiness, and not to become an end in itself. But look at it now!

For me, who is neither a sport nor show enthusiast, I have to say that *I* prefer the moderate dog, and I bet that 95% of the GSD-owning population feels the same way. People with families, small farms, businesses... looking for a dog that can be a guardian when required, be a trustworthy companion to children, social enough to accept guests, stable enough to go anywhere, courageous enough to do anything, and yet settle down comfortably when there's nothing to do.... or, heck, maybe even help bring a few sheep in. 

Such a dog might not fly through the show circuit, or have the most spectacular flying leap for the sleeve in a trial, but in real life might be far more useful for the day-to-day, and not require special "management".

I think that there is room in the world for such a breed, even though it would chronically come in second in everything.


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## cliffson1

@freestep....why do you think the typical working line is lacking in structure? I see some fabulous structured working lines that move balanced and are athletic. Just curious what the lacking structure is based on.


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## gagsd

But if everyone bred for moderation.... what would happen?


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## cliffson1

Better dogs less likes


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## KristiM

I think if everyone bred for moderation you would see no GSDs working! So skip the sport competitive aspect, for example when my husband was in Afghanistan he said that 80% of the MWDs were mals, the rest was a smattering of labs and GSDs. Why do you think that is? I doubt its because GSDs are too extreme (since they are using mostly mals who are far more extreme than GSDs.) My husband asked a few handlers why they didn't use GSDs, the only answers he got was its too hard to find a good one. They didn't elaborate but I'm guessing it's because these private and military organizations expect more out of a dog and need a different type of dog than they did several years ago. The GSDs that he did meet certainly were not "moderate" dogs! So should they just be bred as pets from now on because the working world seems to be requiring a different type of dog? Should all of us working/competitive people just leave GSDs and get mals so that the breed becomes easy to handle for your average joe? I don't mean to be snarky but I hate that GSDs are now considered second rate working/sport dogs in favor of mals.


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## Mrs.K

KristiM said:


> I think if everyone bred for moderation you would see no GSDs working! So skip the sport competitive aspect, for example when my husband was in Afghanistan he said that 80% of the MWDs were mals, the rest was a smattering of labs and GSDs. Why do you think that is? I doubt its because GSDs are too extreme (since they are using mostly mals who are far more extreme than GSDs.) My husband asked a few handlers why they didn't use GSDs, the only answers he got was its too hard to find a good one. They didn't elaborate but I'm guessing it's because these private and military organizations expect more out of a dog and need a different type of dog than they did several years ago. The GSDs that he did meet certainly were not "moderate" dogs! So should they just be bred as pets from now on because the working world seems to be requiring a different type of dog? Should all of us working/competitive people just leave GSDs and get mals so that the breed becomes easy to handle for your average joe? I don't mean to be snarky but I hate that GSDs are now considered second rate working/sport dogs in favor of mals.


Honestly, the Mal exceeds the GSD's, not necessarily in drives but it is the whole picture in combination with their agility. They can do things that the GSD is simply not capable of doing anymore. Best example is that Wall on post and that opened my eyes. 
Little to no effort for the Mal to get up there, whereas good GSD's can't do it without the training. They just don't have the structure or body type to do it. 

Even though I am a GSD person through and through, I can see the difference and if I was into rubble search for example, and had the choice between a Mal and GSD for the job, I'd pick the dog that could do the job better, no matter what dog I personally preferred, in this case, it would be Ma Deuce. 
The GSD's can't even compete with her. 

Meanwhile, the GSD is too big and too heavy. That being said, Nala is fast, light and small but she still can't keep up with how light footed and agile the Mal is. 

The differences are simply mind blowing. As hard as it is to admit it, in many cases, the Mal is the better working dog. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that every Mal is better than a GSD. There are a lot of ****ty dogs out there, just like with the Shepherd. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the Mal is for everyone and it's not supposed to be a breed for everyone and I do believe the same goes for the Shepherd. 

One reason we have the issues we have is because we are trying to cater everybody.


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## Freestep

cliffson1 said:


> @freestep....why do you think the typical working line is lacking in structure? I see some fabulous structured working lines that move balanced and are athletic. Just curious what the lacking structure is based on.


Actually, I said working lines *may* lack structure... according to those who actually perform breed surveys and give out kkl ratings. In their opinion, working lines don't seem to deserve VA ratings, as I haven't seen one in a very long time. 

But to my personal taste, I actually prefer the structure of working lines to that of the VA type. I have seen some people complain about "coyote-like" structure, lack of angulation, etc. in working lines, but it doesn't bother me personally.


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## carmspack

Moderate does not infer that the dogs be lazy butt cushion warmers -- I think when we are talking about excesses here we are talking about dogs so wired that they can't settle , are hyper active , which has nothing to do with working drives , are reactive when no reason to be.
Neither extreme is of value for work .

""On a DNA level two subpopulations can be identified in the breed: the show line and the working line. "

sure you can tell by looking at a pedigree , well some can , but when you start looking at DNA hopefully the next step will be a sophisticated exploration to determine if and what traits sit on what alleles . I know that this work is already being done for disease -- because it will come to the point where it can be "snipped" (deleted)


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## Mrs.K

Freestep said:


> Actually, I said working lines *may* lack structure... according to those who actually perform breed surveys and give out kkl ratings. In their opinion, working lines don't seem to deserve VA ratings, as I haven't seen one in a very long time.
> 
> But to my personal taste, I actually prefer the structure of working lines to that of the VA type. I have seen some people complain about "coyote-like" structure, lack of angulation, etc. in working lines, but it doesn't bother me personally.


I could care less about VA ratings for my dogs. I want them to be able to work and what is considered a VA rating is definitely NOT what gets the job done.


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## Freestep

KristiM said:


> So should they just be bred as pets from now on because the working world seems to be requiring a different type of dog? Should all of us working/competitive people just leave GSDs and get mals so that the breed becomes easy to handle for your average joe?


That is not what I meant. The GSD should be a WORKING dog. That doesn't mean he has to have extreme angulation, or a roached back, so he can win in conformation; nor does it mean he has to be a low-threshold, flashy, explosive dog like a Mal so he can win in sport. Different working venues have different needs. Would you want a Malinois as a guide dog? Does an SAR dog have to look flashy while he works, or is the goal simply to find the lost? 

Yes, I agree that it's hard to find a good working GSD anymore--that is not the fault of the breed, but of not enough breeders producing true working temperament. A sport dog may be flashy, animated, make flying leaps and hit hard--which is all nice to look at--but in the real world, a good GSD can take down the bad guy just as well without winning "points" for a visually spectacular long bite. He may not be as fast as a Malinois or jump as high, but he doesn't bite his handler out of frustration, either.

An extremely "sporty" temperament is great for sport, but is it best for LE, SAR, guide and service work? Or herding sheep? Or playing with your children? Guarding your home from bad guys while letting your guests through? A good GSD is supposed to be able to do ALL these things, and do them completely. Many police K9s go home with their handlers and live with the family. Would you do that with a Mal? I'm not dissing Mals, I think they are awesome working dogs, but I wouldn't want to live with one!

Different breeds for different purposes.


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## Mrs.K

Freestep said:


> That is not what I meant. The GSD should be a WORKING dog. That doesn't mean he has to have extreme angulation, or a roached back, so he can win in conformation; nor does it mean he has to be a low-threshold, flashy, explosive dog like a Mal so he can win in sport. Different working venues have different needs. Would you want a Malinois as a guide dog? Does an SAR dog have to look flashy while he works, or is the goal simply to find the lost?
> 
> Yes, I agree that it's hard to find a good working GSD anymore--that is not the fault of the breed, but of not enough breeders producing true working temperament. A sport dog may be flashy, animated, make flying leaps and hit hard--which is all nice to look at--but in the real world, a good GSD can take down the bad guy just as well without winning "points" for a visually spectacular long bite. He may not be as fast as a Malinois or jump as high, but he doesn't bite his handler out of frustration, either.
> 
> An extremely "sporty" temperament is great for sport, but is it best for LE, SAR, guide and service work? Or herding sheep? Or playing with your children? Guarding your home from bad guys while letting your guests through? A good GSD is supposed to be able to do ALL these things, and do them completely. Many police K9s go home with their handlers and live with the family. Would you do that with a Mal? I'm not dissing Mals, I think they are awesome working dogs, but I wouldn't want to live with one!
> 
> Different breeds for different purposes.


Agreed. 

However, it is not that hard to find good dogs as everyone makes it seem. If you know the people, it's really not that hard at all. There are quite a few people on this forum that produce the kind of dog you are talking about and built their reputation.


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## Debbieg

gagsd said:


> But if everyone bred for moderation.... what would happen?


A balanced, jack of all trades, can do it all dog which is what I always thought was what a German Shepherd is meant to be.


I think many people associate "moderate" with "mediocre" instead of balance.

I think the breed would be better (in my eyes anyway) if extremes were considered a fault.


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## Freestep

Debbieg said:


> I think many people associate "moderate" with "mediocre" instead of balance.


Yep! It's evidence of our competitive culture which rewards extremes, to think of "moderate" as "mediocre".


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## Liesje

FWIW working lines lack VA ratings not because they are automatically overlooked being working lines but they often do not meet the necessary requirements (presenting progeny groups and having three generations of breed surveys in the pedigree, typically).


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## gagsd

Debbieg said:


> A balanced, jack of all trades, can do it all dog which is what I always thought was what a German Shepherd is meant to be.
> 
> 
> I think many people associate "moderate" with "mediocre" instead of balance.
> 
> I think the breed would be better (in my eyes anyway) if extremes were considered a fault.


I agree.... mostly. 
For me, when looking at the big picture over time.... if everyone breeds for moderation that is great _in theory._ 
However, breeding is a balancing act, an art. 
What happens when the balance gets a little out of kilter? If everyone has been breeding for moderation, where do you go if you need more speed, agility, courage, aggression, angulation or pigment?


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## KristiM

gagsd said:


> I agree.... mostly.
> For me, when looking at the big picture over time.... if everyone breeds for moderation that is great _in theory._
> However, breeding is a balancing act, an art.
> What happens when the balance gets a little out of kilter? If everyone has been breeding for moderation, where do you go if you need more speed, agility, courage, aggression, angulation or pigment?


This^ I am actually on the fence with this while issue, mostly playing devils advocate on this thread But I really do believe that these dogs shoul be available when they are needed whether it's for breeding purposes or work/sport. I know all too well what it's like to live with one of these "extreme" WL dogs! And if I'm being totally honest I don't think I would own another one like him.


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## elisabeth_00117

Funny you say that because I live with a cross and an extreme WL... for me, I prefer the extreme! 

I find her easier to work, no need to motivate at all, more biddable and just a fun dog to be around and to train.


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## elisabeth_00117

But then again... I do see the need for the balanced, moderate dog too.


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## KristiM

I have a very balanced "jack of all trades" WL and he is a dream! Super easy to work, very sufficient drives for any sport but doesn't have that "edge" that the other one has. The "extreme" part that I find hard to live with isn't the extreme drive (i love that!) It's the extreme dominance, territorialism and all of his "active aggression" that is very challenging to live with. Especially since I am no longer doing bite work and he doesn't have that outlet


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## KristiM

Although sometimes his drive and energy can also be a bit much...at 9pm last night he brought me a tiny crumpled, slobbery piece of paper and insisted that we should play fetch with it Part of the settling in the house issue is that he just so darn cute when he does that stuff that I can't resist playing with him!


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## jmdjack

Perhaps another thing to consider in discussing "balance" and "moderation" is nerve and temperament. Isn't it the nerve and temperament that allow the dog to control and direct the drive? Could it be more of a "balance" issue - nerve/temperament vs. drive - rather than a "moderation" issue? I don't know the answer - just throwing it out there!


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## carmspack

jmdjack, I believe so . Good nerve allows the dog a self-control , non-reactive balance , where drive is not diminished and actually can be the opposite and be long lasting and enduring , rather than these explosive flashes in the pan.


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## Liesje

Yes I agree with you jmdjack. Sometimes I see dogs that people call "extremely drivey" but to me they just look hectic, drive leaking all over the place and not really high drive that is being capped and channeled. I would take less drive that can be capped and channeled than high or extreme drive that is more hectic. Working or show line, I like enough drive so that the dog desires to do the work and can do it with speed and strength but not much more than that.


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## KristiM

I also know a GSD that is super high drive but cannot think or channel at all when in drive! Odin although much lower in drive than Havoc can tend to have this issue, he works best at like a 6 or 7/10 drive level so that he can still think, whereas Havoc maintains a brain at a 9/10 drive level. 

I agree but I also think that a dog can be extreme in drive and still have a good nerve base and solid temperament. I imagine though, that it would be VERY hard to maintain in breeding.


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## Freestep

gagsd said:


> However, breeding is a balancing act, an art.
> What happens when the balance gets a little out of kilter? If everyone has been breeding for moderation, where do you go if you need more speed, agility, courage, aggression, angulation or pigment?


Where do we go now? 

I believe that more "extreme" animals will still appear, even if you're not necessarily breeding for it. Genetics are a funny thing. So I think those individuals will always be available. So if your female is only sort of agile, and you want to breed her to a male who is extremely agile, I bet you could find one. Same goes for angulation, pigment, things like that.

When you start talking about courage, aggression, things like that, things get a bit more complicated. If you breed a female with no aggression to a male with extreme aggression, will all the pups be moderately aggressive? It doesn't always work that way. What do we mean by "aggression", anyway? Is "extreme" aggression even a good thing? And is it the best way to add aggression to a line?

I'm not a breeder or geneticist, so I don't know exactly how temperament traits work on the genetic level. Perhaps one of the experts can better answer this. 

I do remember a breeder who had a very "extreme" female (her description). When she was bred, the breeder chose a stud dog that was more moderate. Even though moderate by some standards, he was a working police K9 and also SchH3, and I believe won a national police dog competition.

So, it's not just the extreme dogs that get the job done!


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## carmspack

the opening of this thread by Patchon asked who has a show/working cross and why did they choose one. 
I would be interested in the "why did they choose one" part of the question because I bet you the answer would be they wanted a more moderate dog -- tone down the drive which they thought would come from the working line. 

I found that most people that had this recent cross , described the dog as being very handler sensitive , particularly to voice. One person said the dog could take a hard physical correction but would shrink when she raised her voice.
This is something that I test for . A GSD that works at a distance, beyond physical control, whether a search dog, tracking , herding , needs to be attuned to the handler and responsive -- but a dog that breaks down , shuts down , takes things personally , needs to be coaxed along and convinced that it wasn't aimed at him is not ideal . 
In conflict - if you were to yell at someone that has jumped your fence and you yell - hey you guy what are you doing there ? - you don't want the dog to run into the house for cover - you want him to go to the end of the yard to see what is going on. If your voice gets loud and animated the dog can't be so thin skinned that he takes it personally and then you have to do relationship therapy.
Nor should a dog be such a blockhead that he is totally impervious to your mood and level of excitement .


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## elisabeth_00117

For me, Carmen, it was exactly that... I wanted a more moderate dog.. or so I thought.

It was my first personal dog, the first dog I would raise and train on my own (my father always trained our dogs - we had showlines).

To be completely honest, I did not know much about lines (other than working/show) and I did not fully dive into the pedigrees presented on the dogs I was interested in before purchase. I met the dogs (parents of Stark) liked them, met a few dogs out of them and liked them as well. Then decided to go with that breeding.

Stark is one of those dogs who will take a hard correction/physical but will shut down at me raising my voice. He will stop, stare into space/look around or sniff if I get upset with him outside. Or he does this submissive jumping on me. 

He has never really been disciplined harshly at all and most of our training has been positive. When in schH he did get corrections (prong and ecollar) but again, did not respond negatively to those at all.

When I give him the "mom is mad look" he will stop, drop into a platz (my default command for both dogs when I need them to stop what they are doing when out and about in the world (ie. a park)) and go to his side, sometimes even belly up. Have I ever in his life did something to him that would make him act that way? No way.


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## Liesje

Carmen does the over sensitivity come from the show lines or the crossing? Just curious because Nikon is "pure" WGSL and is not sensitive like what others are describing at all. In fact it's probably good he was my first real sport/SchH/performance type dog because he has taken all of my training mistakes in stride!


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## elisabeth_00117

Lies, my (RIP) Beau was not a sensitive dog either. She was also very drivey, high thresholds and had an amazing temperament. I should link her pedigree.. if I can find it.


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## Freestep

It's interesting that those who describe their working/show crosses consistently use the term "handler sensitive"... I wonder if the crosses are actually MORE handler sensitive than either line?

FWIW, most of my GSDs have been handler sensitive. I've never owned a showline, I've had mostly working line dogs, and a couple of crosses. 

The only one I can think of that wasn't handler sensitive was my WGWL/Czech female. She was a bit of a "blockhead"--but a well-meaning one--full of drive, but little focus.


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## Xeph

My dude isn't handler sensitive at all. He's pretty handler hard, honestly


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## Andaka

Mine is handler sensitive, and I like that at this point of my life. He hates being wrong, so a "no, no bad dog" aort of thing often works with him. That way I don't have to get physically involved as much.


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## Catu

My pure working line is the more handler sensitive dog I've owned. Not to the point Carmen describes, but a bit too much to my taste. I still hope Lambert outgrows some with maturity.


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## Xeph

Catu, my working line is the same. Handler sensitive...a bit too much for my taste as well


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## GatorDog

I noticed that my cross is starting to come out of the sensitivity now as he is nearing 4 years old. I noticed a major difference within the last year or so for sure.


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## robk

Lets back up just a moment. Please help me understand what you guys are referring too when you say "handler sensitive." For example; Ruger is quick and eager to please. He also is a thinker and will try his best to do what he thinks I am wanting out of him. However he is not a "soft" dog. He takes a correction very well and is able to stay engaged in the task at hand. If I give him a correction, he does not ignore me and keep doing it his own way, but at the same time he does not loose interest. He just tries to do it right the next time. So my question is this; is handler "sensitive" the same thing as handler "soft"? I would argue no.

Phrased another way; is handler sensitive referring to a "biddable" dog or is it referring to a "soft" dog?


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## Catu

To me the only difference is in connotation. On a good day, when he runs to me at the slightest whistle after intending to chase a cat, he is "biddable". On a bad day, when he needs two commands to do something because he thinks I may reprimand him, then he is "handler soft".

I recognize I have some of the culprit. Being Akela my first male, working line and bigger than average I was afraid he coild be "too much dog for me" and I was too strict with him while he grew up. Now I know him better I know I could have been much more relaxed with the rules


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## KristiM

I think that even the hardest of working dogs can develop some healthy handler sensitivity if they have a close bond and good working realtionship with the handler. I have known a few dogs that generally just naturally don't care what their handler thinks but over time and with a relationship that seems to fade. 

I would say that a dog that does stuff just because you said so, or doesn't do stuff just because you said so would be handler sensitive or biddable. I think what a lot of people are describing with the crosses is what I would consider to be a "soft" dog. A dog that will react innapropriately to a personal correction by shutting down, not being able to continue working, hiding etc. I have owned a truly soft dog (it was a border collie) and oh my god what a nightmare! He couldn't be in the same room with me if I was talking loudly lol. 

I could be thinking about the terms incorrectly though, this is just what I have been taught, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong


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## onyx'girl

When I train, we set up distracting scenario's to test/proof my dog. 
So he may not be 'biddable' when we do certain things(asking him to 'place' when someone is standing in between me and the place and that someone is holding a chuck-it) We work thru it, he doesn't shut down, he doesn't always necessarily comply right on the first command, and we both learn during that session, he knows he needs to do what I ask and I won't let him get away with his wanting that chuck-it more than listening to me. He is rewarded big time when he does the command! Adding in a helper to doing blind searches raises the stakes and him blowing me off is not 'biddable' either. But in other training exercises, he is completely biddable.

When we do in the blind work, if I come in, he may glance at me but should still stay engaged w/ the helper....if he dis-engages with the helper when I come in, that would show handler sensitivity, and I'd need to figure out what I'm doing in our training to cause it.

I don't think a soft dog and handler sensitivity are one in the same. Handler sensitivity and biddability do go hand in hand for the most part.


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## KristiM

onyx'girl said:


> When I train, we set up distracting scenario's to test/proof my dog.
> So he may not be 'biddable' when we do certain things(asking him to 'place' when someone is standing in between me and the place and that someone is holding a chuck-it) We work thru it, he doesn't shut down, he doesn't always necessarily comply right on the first command, and we both learn during that session, he knows he needs to do what I ask and I won't let him get away with his wanting that chuck-it more than listening to me. He is rewarded big time when he does the command! Adding in a helper to doing blind searches raises the stakes and him blowing me off is not 'biddable' either. But in other training exercises, he is completely biddable.
> 
> When we do in the blind work, if I come in, he may glance at me but should still stay engaged w/ the helper....if he dis-engages with the helper when I come in, that would show handler sensitivity, and I'd need to figure out what I'm doing in our training to cause it.
> 
> I don't think a soft dog and handler sensitivity are one in the same. Handler sensitivity and biddability do go hand in hand for the most part.


Part of what you are talking about is learning through proofing. If the picture changes (like someone being distracting, helper on the field) dogs need to do a little relearning under the new circumstances, he's not just blowing you off

A good example of a dog that is not handler sensitive and not biddable is Havoc when I tell him to out his toy. He knows exaclty what I want, he knows that there is a very good chance that as soon as he outs he will immediately get it back but if he doesn't feel like it I can yell, scream, cry, kick, punch, beg, plead and he will not let go. (If it weren't for ecollars I am sure I still wouldn't be able to train with toys) He is a dog that could be "balanced out" with more handler sensitivity. But even him as he is getting older is starting to give in to doing stuff that I ask him to just cause, I think it's a sign our bond and working realationship is developing.


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## carmspack

the sensitivity that I was refering to was NOT the dog biddable , in tune , attuned to handler , but the dog that was handler soft who would go in to avoidance or submissive behaviour or throwing calming signals , become anxious , panting - nose flicking , yawning - shrinking into a crouch .


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> the sensitivity that I was refering to was NOT the dog biddable , in tune , attuned to handler , but the dog that was handler soft who would go in to avoidance or submissive behaviour or throwing calming signals , become anxious , panting - nose flicking , yawning - shrinking into a crouch .


 Handler Sensitive is NOT being Handler Soft/ or Soft for that matter. 

There is a big difference between Handler Sensitivity which means the dog is in tune with you, biddable and attuned to handler. 

This is what I think is handler sensitivity at it's best
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haJtYYHeKeo&list=UU53arc64fJClrMUdS1MVhWg&index=3&feature=plcp

I don't think she could be more biddable, in tune and attuned to me at all.


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## PatchonGSD

Wow....I'm going to need a cup of coffee and a donut before I read through this thread. Such a wealth of information here.


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## carmspack

Mrs K , you are agreeing with what I said.


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## Debbieg

I think it all goes back to the genetic obedience often talked about here by Vandal, Carmen and others


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## onyx'girl

KristiM said:


> Part of what you are talking about is learning through proofing. If the picture changes (like someone being distracting, helper on the field) dogs need to do a little relearning under the new circumstances, *he's not just blowing you off*


Yes, he is. He knows what is expected of him,but the distractions are too tempting. That is why we up the anty while proofing.


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## Mrs.K

carmspack said:


> Mrs K , you are agreeing with what I said.


Yes I do.


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## Vandal

I don't think softness is coming from the show side in particular. I have seen soft dogs from all lines. I have also seen and trained show line dogs who were simply TOO "hard". Where normal corrections had no impact. Many wanted to use the term "stubborn" to describe them. I don't like that term and always look for other reasons for behavior. People are stubborn, dogs are not, they have other reasons for not complying. These dogs required a harder correction to get thru to them but when it did, they would almost shut down. Weird combination that caused me to dread training dogs from show lines when people asked me to. It was a case where people could not pay me to do it , even though I am a professional dog trainer. I am not kidding, that is how unpleasant those dogs were to train. 

I also saw this behavior coming thru some of the Bungalow dogs and when this was discussed on another list, there was a common dog pointed out, who is behind many show line dogs and found in the Bungalow dogs as well. Sam Weinerau. I have no idea if he is the source, I am always skeptical when one dog, ( one time in the pedigree), is blamed, but who knows. I just know that the behavior of those dogs is not something I thought of as desirable , at all, and that includes the working lines who were like this.


I think sometimes we may be seeing it in the show dogs who seem to almost crawl next to their handlers on the heeling before the "attack" out of the blind. Many want to blame the bad training or say the dogs were being abused in some way. I recognize it as something else...meaning, what I just talked about above.


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## robinhuerta

The two WL females that I have chosen to cross with...have slightly different "handler" responses.
Izzy is *handler sensitive*.....*sensitive not soft.* She is slightly more biddable than her 1/2 sister. She can take any correction from the handler without falling apart....but she is ALSO *quick *to respond to the correction.

Noche is only *slightly/handler sensitive*. She is more apt to be corrected harder, and she has NO softness what so ever. She takes a little longer to respond to a correction...as the correction must be given stronger, when she is in drive.

BOTH females are extremely nice and balanced. Both females have very good, strong nerves and are sound.....the only differences are their "personal characters". Neither females have any sensitivities to environmental stimuli.
*One of my favorite things about them.....their on & off abilities.*
I cannot live with dogs that do not have that ability, and I have no desire to produce dogs that do not have that ability.


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## Mrs.K

> I think sometimes we may be seeing it in the show dogs who seem to almost crawl next to their handlers on the heeling before the "attack" out of the blind. Many want to blame the bad training or say the dogs were being abused in some way. I recognize it as something else...meaning, what I just talked about above.


I've never seen that crawling as abuse or bad training. It's more like a stalking thing. If we are talking about the same thing.


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## robinhuerta

Anne....Do you know how many WL dogs I watched "slink" down the field at the Schutzhund Nationals (about 4 years ago/when my husband was one of the helpers for the event)......almost "all" of them.
That "pose" is not just a SL dog thing......I see it all the time at most clubs we visit.

Creeping, crawling or stalking......one must "know" the dog & training, before an absolute judgement call is made...JMO


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## Vandal

Robin,
Since you can only seem to pick out what I say about show lines, even though I talk just as much about working line dogs, perhaps you should just ignore my posts. No "absolute judgement" was made my me but you continue to take it all just a little too personal.


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## Liesje

enlighten me
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-ipo-training/194003-crawling.html


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## robinhuerta

You took my post "personal"....not the other way around.
I simply made a statement that I have watched/seen that "pose" at National events too, that primarily consisted of WL dogs.
I wasn't dissagreeing or agreeing....simply giving an observation and comment.

I was simply "adding" to the thread.......my mistake.

*THIS is why I almost *never *respond to these types of threads.....carry on...I'm done.*
BTW...since I have both lineages...I don't find one better than the other...I think there is good and crap in both.


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## martemchik

Robin! Before you go!

Is there any reason in particular you chose to bring in female WL rather than a male WL to breed to one of your females? So like...would a male from that litter brought the same to your lines or would it have been different and that's why you went with a female?


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## carmspack

that softness can also be seen in the dog who is afraid to make a mistake - I have seen it hundreds of times both while competing in obedience and later while apprenticing in sanction matches as a potential judge (also as ring stewart). People can gain a lot by hanging around and watching others train and compete , don't just do your event and then head for the car . I saw many dogs almost tip toe on their nails , be tentative . When the handler said a firm SIT the dog the dogs head would sink in between the shoulders and the dog would look away , nose flick. The dog was okay dokey when it was all chirpy baby talk though . Oddly the kennel , which happens to be high rated american show states temperament is a priority.

In order to be a good working dog , or a good dog , working, the dog must be RESILIENT 
bounce back , be forgiving --


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## cliffson1

Working/show crosses are tricky!


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