# Shz, IPO, KNPV, PPD - Geez I'm confused



## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

I'm not exactly sure where to start with this question. I guess I'll start with my background and what I have and what I'm wanting.

What we have: I have my first GSD - a "nicely bred, but no where near impressive" female that is almost 6 months old. My mom (70yo) bought a male out of the same litter. 

What we're looking for:
Mom first - she is a 70yo widow (my dad died 5 years ago). She is looking purely for a Personal Protection dog that will make a good companion. She has no desire to ever breed her pup (and will probably get him neutered when he reaches maturity). To expound, she wants a dog that is VERY well behaved in the house and is very tolerant of her grandkids (and great-grandkids), neighbors, etc. But will "eat the butt off" someone who tries to do the wrong thing. 

Background: My mom had had dogs her whole life (including GSDs), but has no experience formally training a dog. Imho, her now 6mo old male's obedience is "ok", but not great (he will ignore her when the distraction is high). He is house-trained and doesn't tear things up. He is good with the kids, including a 2yo (keeping in mind he does still act like a 6mo puppy who weighs 50lbs).


Me - my desires are not that different than my mom, BUT I might want to breed my female at some point down the road .... yes, yes - IF she is "worthy" (health certs, temperament, etc.). It's this last part that will eventually lead to my question at the end of what is going to be a very long post... 

My background: I have 25 years of experience at training retrievers for both real-world hunting situations as well as "playing the retriever games". At one point I was a fully qualified judge with for both AKC and HRC hunt tests. I have had 2 dogs qualify for National hunt tests.

.... which is to say, I *do* understand training dogs in general. I do NOT understand the particulars of training for Sch, IPO, KNPV, or PPD (or even where the differences between them are).


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I'll take a simplistic shot at it and then somebody who actually knows what they're talking about can give you a real answer. 

"IPO/Schutzhund: 
Angry people shouting in German while a large dog bites the Michelin Man’s ethnic cousin."

"KNPV:
Some guy just got hit with a dog and then he rode a bicycle. It’s all very Dutch."

(source: 
What Dog Sports Look Like to the Outside World. | The Dog Snobs and What Dog Sports Look Like to the Outside World: Part 2 | The Dog Snobs)


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## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

(continued)

So being a novice at this, the "game" I thought I wanted to play was Sch/IPO (which I believe are the same thing now, right?).

But that's where things get interesting...


This past weekend I was up in Dallas visiting my mom and decided to run our pups out to a professional trainer I have known for a long time. Back when I was playing retriever games, he was as well .... and did very, VERY good. But he quit doing retriever games at about the same time I did (2007?) and took a job as a defense contractor in Afghanistan ... specifically to train military dogs over there. The "60 Minutes" show this past April was about his group there...





Which is only to say, my buddy does know his stuff... 

...Well... he knows how to train for THAT. But I'm not so sure that everything he was telling us really applies to a dog that will live in the house 24/7 with other dogs, cats, chickens, and kids.


At any rate, what he was telling us was that Sch/IPO is a good game, but it really doesn't create a dog that won't back down. (ok, now that I've got everyone's hackles up....)

The example he pointed to was in HOW 99% of these dogs are taught to bite. They grab and arm and PULL. According to him, what you want is a dog that will bite and drive INTO the "target". And keep driving in.

Quite honestly - there is something in this that makes logical sense.


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## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

Well I think I've gotten off track. So - to finally get to my question: I guess what I'm wanting to know is this:

What "evaluation game" is there for Personal Protection Dogs? 


It would seem that Sch/IPO goes way beyond what is really needed in real life. Is KNPV closer?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

It's difficult to do KNVP unless you live in the Netherlands.


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## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

Last thing: I'm going to train my dog in English. 

When the SHTF and I need to tell my dog to do something, I'm not going to be stammering around trying to remember what german/dutch word I am supposed to use.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

Depends how you train and the dog you own.... that's what makes the final result.

I've seen many IPO dogs that are very real. Some are even cross trained as a PPD. My younger female is training in IPO, but once she's titled will probably move to PPD. So far, she is very promising for them both and seems to hold the capacity to do them both. But that's to be later evaluated... for now, we're staying on path to title. Now, on the other hand.... I've also met some IPO dogs that will NOT bite unless you have a sleeve, pillow, or wedge... period! They are "sleeve happy" and it's all just a fun game of tug... nothing serious about it. That's not all of them though. That would be a huge, false blanket statement.

KNPV, like RobK said, is very hard to find here in the US. It's more of a "police dog" type sport. Not 100% the same... but, it's definitely way more based on the real-life style of protection. Those dogs will most definitely bite for real. That's from what I've seen... like I said, it's hard to find, so I haven't met many of these dogs. However, when we have dogs sent in for our LE K9 departments to be evaluated, many of them will have KNPV titles or backgrounds. Typically they like to train their own from green.... but, if not, they will absolutely take a KNPV dog. In KNPV, you also will see way more Malis and Dutches over Shepherds. It's not unknown, but definitely not as common.

If you have a stable dog that's trained properly, there should be no reason that dog couldn't live in the house as a normal family pet. The great thing about this breed is it's versatility. When on the field or "working" my dogs are focused, intense, and ready to do whatever they have to.... and home, they are just another family dog.

As of it "being more than what's needed". Well, some may see it as that... but I see it as well rounded. Just like when kids go to school, they don't just learn Science... or Math. They also learn Geography, History, Humanities, Reading and Writing Skills, some states require a Foreign Language and have music and art available. This makes for a well rounded education. It's the same in our Universities. IPO dogs have to learn strict OB so this way you always have FULL control of them and they prove they can be obedient, which is important especially when working with protection. They learn tracking..... teaches patience, focus, works their brain, and most of all it teaches them to use another one of their senses. Protection is wonderful and lots of fun.... but, OB is needed to round the dog out and set boundaries.

KNPV I'm pretty sure doesn't have anything else other than OB and protection..... which, correct me if I'm wrong.... is not judged separately like IPO? I believe it's all together in different types of "scenarios".

If you want to do something with just OB and Protection and have it a bit more "realistic" and not really get super involved in a sport.... find a PPD trainer, or here we have bodyguard competitions and titles. It's just OB (kind of like a BH pattern) and then protection which mixes in the two and it's a bit like IPO with not as many different commands and such. It's still a lot of work though.

When you check those out (or any of these sports), they'll evaluate the dog and go from there.

-Forgot to add- About the language you use.... IPO doesn't care what you use... it just has to be consistent. So you can't say "Platz" (down in German) and then "Stand". It all needs to be in one language. The others I'm not sure of, I've never really looked too far into them... but, I'm pretty sure they'd have the same idea.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

TrickyShepherd said:


> KNPV, like RobK said, is very hard to find here in the US. It's more of a "police dog" type sport. Not 100% the same... but, it's definitely way more based on the real-life style of protection. Those dogs will most definitely bite for real. That's from what I've seen... like I said, it's hard to find, so I haven't met many of these dogs. However, when we have dogs sent in for our LE K9 departments to be evaluated, many of them will have KNPV titles or backgrounds. Typically they like to train their own from green.... but, if not, they will absolutely take a KNPV dog. In KNPV, you also will see way more Malis and Dutches over Shepherds. It's not unknown, but definitely not as common.
> *KNPV I'm pretty sure doesn't have anything else other than OB and protection..... which, correct me if I'm wrong.... is not judged separately like IPO? I believe it's all together in different types of "scenarios".
> *
> If you want to do something with just OB and Protection and have it a bit more "realistic" and not really get super involved in a sport.... find a PPD trainer, or here we have bodyguard competitions and titles. It's just OB (kind of like a BH pattern) and then protection which mixes in the two and it's a bit like IPO with not as many different commands and such. It's still a lot of work though.
> ...


KNPV has a timed search exercise done off leash. I wish there was more interest in the KNPV training in the US. KNPV Trial Rules


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

TxFig said:


> (continued)
> 
> So being a novice at this, the "game" I thought I wanted to play was Sch/IPO (which I believe are the same thing now, right?).
> 
> ...



The bottom line is genetics....not training....either the dog has the genetics for serious protection or it doesn't....they both can be trained in playing this biting game with a guy dressed up and tapping a sleeve invitingly...but the instincts are different...some dogs will play as long as there is no pressure, some are bored unless there is pressure...some will play without much pressure but take it to another level when the pressure is upped....sounds like you want the third type ....which is the hardest to find, even though everyone says theirs is this type LOL LOL

You have the dog you have, and will have to train her to find out which type you have...some can train 24/7 and never have the third type of dog....training and being critical is how you find out...

Lee


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

The chances of you having a gsd dog capable of KNPV work are nil and you cannot participate anyway. Forget personal protection, because the chances of your dog excelling at this is also nil. Find an IPO club and learn how to train your dog motivationally and in prey drive and then you can begin to learn.


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## canon (Jul 9, 2013)

I want my dog to bite for fun not protection, I carry a gun for that. I don't want a bad guy shooting my dog, lol here in Texas everyone carries a gun to protect the wife kinds and the pets/working dog

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

apache is still in a cage, I have the shotgun in the bedroom though.


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## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

canon said:


> I want my dog to bite for fun not protection, I carry a gun for that. I don't want a bad guy shooting my dog, lol here in Texas everyone carries a gun to protect the wife kinds and the pets/working dog



I carry one as well (yes, this IS Texas) :wild:

But I'm now 51 years old and tend to be a pretty deep sleeper. A PPD that can give me enough time to get to my gun (and wake up enough to use it) is a desired asset. 


Ok, so what should I do now?  Carly (my GSD) is now almost 6mo. 

She seems to have a pretty good prey drive. She plays fetch with pretty much anything I throw (training bumper, squeeky ball, stick off the wood pile). She *LOVES* to chase the ducks and chickens and cat (although if they stop running, she stops chasing and doesn't actually catch them ... which I prefer).

She will play tug-o-war until my arm falls off - but is always careful to bite the tug-object and not my hands. 

Her obedience is pretty good: sit, here, & "corner" (meaning go lay in your corner in the living room and quit pestering everyone to play). Heel is ok for my purposes (ie. stay within 5'-10' feet of me).


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Really any GSD, or any dog for that matter, is going to alert to things going bump in the night and in doing so will serve as a deterrent and an early warning system to buy you time. You don't need training for that.

There is nothing wrong with doing PPD training either, if that is something you truly want to do. But this is not something to be entered into lightly. It is a HUGE responsibility and in most places a greatly increased liability. It is also a huge time committment for the life of the dog. It must be done properly as both you and the dog have much to learn. That requires finding a good trainer to work with, and investing a lot of time and money. Finding a good trainer is the first, and perhaps hardest, step as unfortunately there are more crackpots out there peddling protection dogs and protection dog training who are doing nothing but creating unstable dogs. There are far fewer legitimate, experienced PPD trainers to work with. And as someone new to this you may not be able to tell one from the other.

As for what to do next, you need to start contacting clubs and trainers in your area. I would start with established protection sport clubs. Doesn't matter if they are IPO/SchH, SDA, PSA (as others have said you won't find KNPV in the US). Sport work, even if that isn't your ultimate goal, is a good place to start for both you and your dog to develop some skills and a basis of knowledge to build upon to help you make sound decisions later with regard to what direction to take your training. Transitioning over to more real life protection later isn't difficult provided the foundation is solid and the dog has the genetics for it. Those same clubs can probably help you with that. If they don't do some more real life type of work themselves (and many do, even if their main focus is sport), they can probably direct you to legitimate trainers in the area that you can work with, and help you avoid the dangerous crackpots. The dog world is a pretty small one. Especially in local areas. They will know who is good and who to avoid. They will also be able to provide you with guidance on what direction to take your training once they've worked with you for a while to develop a foundation and more is known about what you truly want to pursue and what your dog and you as a handler are capable of.


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## TxFig (Feb 26, 2012)

Chris Wild said:


> There is nothing wrong with doing PPD training either, if that is something you truly want to do. But this is not something to be entered into lightly. It is a HUGE responsibility and in most places a greatly increased liability.


Ok, I guess I'm confused. By this am I to understand that PPD is "higher" than IPO?

I was under the impression that PPD was a generic term. The analogy would be in the retriever world - we have 3 levels of performance (from highest to lowest):
(1) field trials - competitive events where a dog earns titles, dogs are judged against each other in the event and one dog "wins" the event.
(2) hunt tests - NON-competitive events where a dog earns titles. The dogs are judged against a set standard of performance and either pass or fail on their own, regardless of how other dogs at the same event perform.
(3) gundogs - dogs that are trained to be "simple hunting companions." No titles (in fact, no event).

I was equating PPD to be the "gundog" level. Is this not correct?




> It is also a huge time committment for the life of the dog. It must be done properly as both you and the dog have much to learn. That requires finding a good trainer to work with, and investing a lot of time and money. Finding a good trainer is the first, and perhaps hardest, step as unfortunately there are more crackpots out there peddling protection dogs and protection dog training who are doing nothing but creating unstable dogs. There are far fewer legitimate, experienced PPD trainers to work with. And as someone new to this you may not be able to tell one from the other.


Gotcha. Kind of one reason why I went to go see my buddy up in Dallas last weekend. 

I have found 1 trainer in the Houston area (much closer to me) that seems to have a good reputation (Circle K9), but have not yet met with them (life keeps getting in the way).





> As for what to do next, you need to start contacting clubs and trainers in your area. I would start with established protection sport clubs. Doesn't matter if they are IPO/SchH, SDA, PSA (as others have said you won't find KNPV in the US).


Ug! 

I have tried and tried to find a club in my area. The nearest one I have found is in Dallas (3 hours away). I did find a lady that USED to be the chairman of a club here in Bryan/College Station, TX - but the club folded back in 2008. 



I guess I should add this. For me, there only 2 reasons to play any doggie game that results in a title:
(1) it gives me an objective measure to gauge the training I'm using and what I need to work on.

(2) if I decide to breed her later on (assuming all health checks, etc. are also good). This is probably my history in retriever games, but to me a title provides some level of "buyer assurance" that the dog meets some standard from an objective and knowledgeable source.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

TxFig said:


> Well I think I've gotten off track. So - to finally get to my question: I guess what I'm wanting to know is this:
> 
> What "evaluation game" is there for Personal Protection Dogs?
> 
> ...


PSA would be your best route. Puts real pressure on dogs with more real world style situations. Trials have exercises created on trial day so you cannot condition a dog to complete the exercise but must actually teach the dog to perform under unknown conditions... and PSA clubs exist all over the states. I'd love to give KNPV a try but no idea where in the states I could do that.

There is also K9 Pro sports which Butch posted a thread about just recently in the "other sports" forum, but I know very little about it other than I believe it was also created to be more "real" than IPO/SchH and get back to testing dogs for real PPD/PSD breeding stock.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

TxFig said:


> Ok, I guess I'm confused. By this am I to understand that PPD is "higher" than IPO?
> 
> I was under the impression that PPD was a generic term. The analogy would be in the retriever world - we have 3 levels of performance (from highest to lowest):
> (1) field trials - competitive events where a dog earns titles, dogs are judged against each other in the event and one dog "wins" the event.
> ...


Contact Van Meerhout German Shepherds, 138 Cotton Rows Lane, Taylor, Texas 76574

They are only an hour from you and I regularly work a male from their kennel... very nice dog. Don't know if they have their own club, go elsewhere, or what their training situation is, but I'm sure they can help you find something close.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

canon said:


> I want my dog to bite for fun not protection, I carry a gun for that. I don't want a bad guy shooting my dog, lol here in Texas everyone carries a gun to protect the wife kinds and the pets/working dog
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If your dog is biting just for fun, then you're kinda just going through the motions of the sport rather than actually testing the dog.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

TxFig said:


> Ok, I guess I'm confused. By this am I to understand that PPD is "higher" than IPO?


It's not "higher," it's just different.

IPO is a sport with patterned scenarios and strict rules about where and when the dog can bite. It trains a lot more than bitework; there are obedience routines at each level and tracking routines as well.

PPD is not as patterned and doesn't have the same level of strictness/precision. It is (supposed to be) more about training the dog to respond to "real life" situations.

I guess if I were making a real clumsy analogy I would say that IPO is a little bit like boxing or taekwondo (strict rules about where you can hit, when you're allowed to engage, when you have to stop) and PPD is more like a self-defense class (far fewer restrictions on formal technique, and you practice with scenarios like "mugger in alley" and "carjacking").

One of the reasons PPD can be a little risky, particularly for newbies, is because it's not patterned and the dog is supposed to learn to respond to a wide variety of unpredictable stimuli. If your training is clumsy and your control is not good, this can result in a dog who attacks when he shouldn't -- and who has learned how to attack people hard. There are also a number of self-proclaimed "trainers" in this area who will straight-up abuse a dog in the name of teaching it to fight back.

I don't do and have never done PPD (I have seen the fallout from badly bungled attempts at it, though, and it wasn't pretty), and I am a total newb to Schutzhund/IPO, so if I'm wrong about this I very much hope someone will correct me. But that is pretty much my understanding of the difference between the two.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

^ Very good explanation of the differences.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'd add that PPD dogs are trained more to defend as was explained to me by a PPD and SchH trainer. He said a strictly trained for protection PPD *usually* doesn't train to chase and subdue a suspect (or helper)...






Merciel said:


> It's not "higher," it's just different.
> 
> IPO is a sport with patterned scenarios and strict rules about where and when the dog can bite. It trains a lot more than bitework; there are obedience routines at each level and tracking routines as well.
> 
> ...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Another way to describe it, elaborating on Merciel's post, is IPO is like Judo... looks like fighting, can be fighting, but at the end of the day its about points and proper form & following the rules. PPD/PSA/KNPV are more like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu... what matters is what is most effective in a real fight.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> KNPV has a timed search exercise done off leash. I wish there was more interest in the KNPV training in the US. KNPV Trial Rules


 Thanks for the information. I, too, wish it was more popular. I've never been able to actually talk to anyone who does KNPV. I have seen a lot of dogs that come from that background and how they do in police work..... but, not the actual sport of KNPV. From my little bit of knowledge from personal research and watching some videos, it looks like a lot of fun and the dogs are really neat to work with. There's a club here, but it's about 3-4hrs down south from me.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> IPO is like Judo... looks like fighting, can be fighting, but at the end of the day its about points and proper form & following the rules. PPD/PSA/KNPV are more like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu... what matters is what is most effective in a real fight.


Yeah, and in either case, if you're _good_ at it, you shouldn't have too much trouble toe-to-toe with the average untrained, unarmed person. Good training always beats total lack of training.

BUT:

(1) As has been alluded to up-thread, in real life, most criminals don't come unarmed.

(2) Whichever variant you go with, it will be a huge training commitment. Think about all the times dogs got confused doing other things in other sports. It happens to me _constantly,_ and sometimes over some pretty hard-to-predict issues. When I think about a strong, athletic dog having that same kind of confusion while _biting_ someone... well, it's not hard to see why this type of training needs to be undertaken with great care!

and

(3) In all honesty, in real life, an untrained dog with good instincts and a strong backbone should be all you need as an alarm and deterrent. Even a dog with lousy instincts and _no_ backbone can do it, if it's a big dog with a deep bark.

I've talked about this a little in other threads, but I have two dogs: Pongu, my GSD mix, who is a complete fearful basketcase, and Crookytail, my Akita mix, who is a gentle cuddlebug that would turn himself inside out before he laid teeth on a human. Neither of my dogs has ever killed anything bigger than a mouse. I'm not sure they could. But they are large dogs and they have scary barks (well, if you don't know dogs, their barks are scary -- if you _do_ know dogs, Pongu's is pretty clearly the machine-gun panic bark of a fear-aggressive nutjob).

I live in Philadelphia, in a neighborhood that is mostly pretty safe but occasionally gets criminals who come through looking for easy targets (I live off a major party street and there are a lot of drunk people who wander obliviously through the area on weekend nights; these people make prime prey for muggers). We don't have a yard. Sometimes, dogs being dogs and having not-so-great timing on their potty needs, we have to go out at weird hours. Also, once I locked myself out from 2 to 7 am because I was stupid and forgot my keys.

As a result of my own general stupidity and bad luck, I've been almost mugged three times. All three times, my dogs stepped in and scared the muggers away. My dogs have scared away mentally ill people who ran at me screaming and waving their arms (on reflection, I think an actual PPD would have bitten some of those people, and I'm glad that didn't happen). They have scared away lots of other sketchy people whose intentions I don't know for sure.

The first time I almost got mugged, I didn't have Crookytail yet, and it was my foster dog Gremlin and Pongu who scared off that guy. Gremlin, who was completely fearless and super protective and also not real bright, leaped up and almost took a bite out of the guy's arm. I told her she was a Very Good Dog. She proceeded to take this a little too much to heart and became pretty seriously human-aggressive for the next month or so. My fault; I had to work a while to fix the fallout of that experience. She was small enough for me to handle easily and we got over it, and her adopters have never had any problems on that front, but sometimes I think about how differently things might have gone if she'd been an 80-pound dog from a breed with a reputation for "aggression."

The point of all this rambling is just to say that I've been put in that sorry position more times than I would wish on anyone else, and having actually been through it in real life, my untrained un-brave dogs have still managed to keep me safe.

I think protection sports are _awesome_. I plan to pursue them with my next dog. I don't say any of this to discourage you from doing them, because even if you never ever have to use any of that training in real life, it's a great way to bond with your dog and have fun. And I think it can be pretty useful to work your dog so that you have some idea what to expect before it happens if you ever do get cornered.

But in my opinion and experience, it is not something that you _need_ in order to get a dog who can help you out of a bad situation.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

TrickyShepherd said:


> Thanks for the information. I, too, wish it was more popular. I've never been able to actually talk to anyone who does KNPV. I have seen a lot of dogs that come from that background and how they do in police work..... but, not the actual sport of KNPV. From my little bit of knowledge from personal research and watching some videos, it looks like a lot of fun and the dogs are really neat to work with. There's a club here, but it's about 3-4hrs down south from me.


I was lucky to get in on a KNPV seminar last fall. The two that were giving it are Dutch KNPV trainer/breeders and gave their generous time to many of the local K9 LEO's thruout the time they were here. They also came back a couple months ago for more of the same. 
There was a reason for that, a local breeder has dogs chosen from their kennel for a US based affiliation and is getting her name out there to supply the US with KNPV lined Dutchies. Her dogs are fantastic. They brought over a male for her to use as stud, and only had him for two days prior to flying over to the US. The dog Pablo was amazing in his temperament and biddability to everyone. He was strong in the protection work too! After protection, the local breeder's children played with him, he was very happy and balanced. They also brought back with them a pup she had bred. 
What impressed me about the two was the compassion and positive training methods they used. They truly love the dogs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7j19jaeog


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