# BH Training - with a lunatic



## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Started training my now 15 month old gsd about a month and a half ago for his BH- the trainer who is European is well known was once a judge and does work for some popular kennels for quick titling- we used him in 08 and had some of the same issues.
He uses very harsh methods on the dogs he is training by my standards and probably the ASPCA- shock collars are ok within reason but not to cripple the dog to its feet. Problem is I am the handler of my showline and am a perfectionist in most issues in life but my 2 gsds are a HOBBY and as such are supposed to be fun.
On the training field he becomes totally verbally abusive in a derogatory way to me- no constructive criticsm just nasty remarks-on and on- ironically off the field he is quite pleasant- FINALLY Tuesday with the trials a week away on his field I emailed him to the effect that he must curtail this abusive treatment of me the paying client or we must stop training. 
His response was thanks for the email.

If this is the standard in the sport world leave me out- imagine a tennis coach or golf instructor screaming at you everytime you miss a shot!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

sounds like it's time to find a new trainer...Are you in Florida training or here in CT?


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Training here in Mansfield Ct.- very frustrating since we put all this time/effort/$ into getting this done here in Ct.- another club in Pomfret thas a trial 9/25 but can not membership into DVG in time to get it done.
Thsi has been one PIA. T
he head of the club in Pomfret knows him well and says what do you expect he is European but admits that is changing even there. She is his friend but would never train with him.

I get my black wl pup from Drache Feld when I get back to Fla.- he is almost 3 months old already.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Old style training - with a German.....why are you surprised ???    Get your BH and move on!

So you are getting one of the Nick pups???

Lee


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Yes- I bought/ paid for him back in august and one of Charlie Starrs trainers is boarding/housebreaking/training him until I get to Florida when I can receive him in two weeks-his trainer is getting very attached to him- she also has 2 other dogs-then the fun will begin with my other 2 gsds in Fla.- luckily my 15 month old male is still very dog friendly- very good temperment as the above Romanian trainer says.
I will have to do BH in Florida this fall it would seem. this set back my whole schedule for him.


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## Tammy GSD (Dec 26, 2010)

I feel your pain. I had 4 bad trainer experiences in a row...which is why we gave up on "formal training", completely. I don't think I'd even try it, again, which really stinks since the training was one of the main reasons I got Sheva.


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## Lyz (Sep 15, 2011)

My trainer and close friend is a bit like that as well. He's extremely competitive and he's aware that I'm a perfectionist in handling. Unfortunately, because of this combination, even small mistakes I make (like moving my hand when I say "bring" - the dumbbell) is met with derogatory remarks akin to "You know better."

That said, I really don't mind and it doesn't phase me anymore. My horseback riding trainer is the same way - brutally critical, especially before a competition, where her name is "on the line" so to speak.


Anyway, if it's too much or you can't tolerate it, have you thought of traveling or seeking out a different trainer? Abusive trainers do not good dogs make. Most of the best trainers I've met are incredibly personable and friendly, this transfers over to their training methods as well. It's one thing to get a Schutzhund III. It's another thing to get your III with a 280!

I'm in Las Vegas and I travel to California to train almost every weekend. It's $150 in gas, but a 2-3 day trip to California has paid for itself by the caliber of training alone. Something I could never recieve locally.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

There is nothing more satisfying than meeting with that trainer, looking him right in the eye, and saying "You're fired."

As the old Alka-Selzter commercial used to say, "Try it; you'll like it."


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I have trained with some outstanding trainers who literally wiped the floor with me. Didn't like it much but I will say, I learned more from those people than anyone else. People say the same thing about me at times. Many people involved in SchH now simply want to" have fun". They are not as interested in _really_ learning. I know, everyone will now say " Oh I want to learn!" but most only want to learn a certain way. Sometimes, the best knowledge is not delivered in a way we all like. It can be "uncomfortable". There is a personality type that goes hand in hand with successful people or people who are really good at something and who have spent their life learning it. Most of those people can't stand to see it done "wrong" and I personally, feel for the dogs when I watch people making one mistake after the other. 

Also, the best helpers I have ever worked with all had a certain type of personality. They play the part when they are working dogs and therefore, you might just get yelled at. Unless you are someone who does helper work well, you might not understand what I am saying. It is simply not possible to be "in character" and then come out of it for those few seconds to instruct the handler. I will say this. When I am not all over what you are doing, it is because I don't care. I always tell people, worry when I stop talking....or yelling for that matter.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

The TD in my SAR team is also a lot like that. I really feel sorry for those poor applicants when they just join the team... He is an ex Air Force officer and tends to forget it is a team and not a regiment.

Recently we talked about how he treats handlers, not that I matter that much how the crew feels either, but all that pressure he puts into them goes down the leash and you end up with stressed dogs. That I do care. Just like with your e-mail, his answer was "I don't think so" and walked away. But later I remembered him the subject with a serie of nasty jokes, we had a serious talk and, if he has not changed, at least walks away when he feels he is about to explode, LOL!

But he is also the kind of guy you have to earn his respect. It had been years from the last time he yelled at me, but on the contrary, he asks for my opinion more and more often. Knowing him, it by itself makes me more proud than the compliments of a hundred of people.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Are you worried about you, the paying client's feelings, or your dogs?

"He uses very harsh methods on the dogs he is training by my standards and probably the ASPCA- shock collars are ok within reason but not to cripple the dog to its feet. "


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I missed what Mary just posted when I wrote my earlier post. If your dogs are being abused, then leave. If other dogs are being abused, then leave....but before you do, something to him about THAT. You have a choice, the dogs don't.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

It is other kennels dogs being hashly abused- I confronted him by email about his verbal abuse and his responsse was - thank you for the email.
A total NEANDERTHAL.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Also this behavior is not tolerated in the business world today-it is called harrassment- this is supposed to be fun- do the means justify the end result- I do not think so- when he is yelling at me the dog reacts and does not want to work- it is a showline! 
The man is so ******* up he does not even acknowledge or realize what an *** he really is.
As I said earlier if one had a tenns coach who screamed at you every time you miss a shot for whatever reason how could you go on- by the way his tirades are about the simplest small things ie petting the dog wrong, making turns too short, leash not loose enough, your paces are off, you are ruining the dog etc


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Then walk away. Really no point debating it on a forum  some people had different ways of handling their students. I don't do a well with "mean"dog trainers unless they are REALLY good (i will tolerate being yelled at by someone who is a suburb trainer). probably because I am relatively new dog handler and it is deflating when you are trying to sort things out. But one of my old riding instructors was a mean sob-was drunk atmany lessons and one of his fav things to say was "what the f do you think you are doing?!"and continue on a rampage.

B itut did not bother me. I tried harder and the anger pushed me more. Many others left in years and did not come back. Not every trainer is for everyone.

And if he is abusing dogs report it and give training timeswhen you do.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

move on. Why stress yourself and your dog. This should be fun, right?


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## lesslis (Sep 23, 2007)

If the dogs are abused, no way, run.
I think this hobby makes you grow some thicker skin if you want to learn. My TD is fair, she will compliment the successes but sure lets you know when your screwing up. :help:


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

well here is some info- if the guy was sooooo good why did he place 95/113 in the FCI world championships earlier this month- results speak for themselves.
In my life I take no crap from anyone period. In the business world this **** would never fly. So why do people take this abuse from dog trainers???


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

You're the one paying him....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

armauro said:


> well here is some info- if the guy was sooooo good why did he place 95/113 in the FCI world championships earlier this month- results speak for themselves.
> In my life I take no crap from anyone period. In the business world this ***** would never fly. So why do people take this abuse from dog trainers???


I don't know, why go on about it? I have no idea who you're talking about. If he's an ****, then just leave. The BH can be accomplished without having to spend money/time with an abusive trainer.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

If you don't like him or his methods or the way he treats you or the dogs then LEAVE. It's really pretty simple.

As far as the business world.. the dog world doesn't exactly equate. But regardless I don't think hiding behind a keyboard whining on an internet board or sending "Dear John" emails would be highly lauded or considered business like and professional. Stand up to the guy, leave, and tell him why he's lost a paying client. Sorry but it really sounds like you're more interested in trashing someone and complaining than in finding any sort of solution. If you want the dog world to be like the business world, then the most obvious thing is for you to do is what anyone else in the business world would do and that's stop paying money for a service you find unacceptable.

As far as the FCI results, well, not just any old "lunatic" even comes close to qualifying to compete in those. So regardless of how well the person did at that sort of event, just getting the chance to go is more than most people in SchH accomplish. I don't know who this person is and don't care enough to go look it up based on your FCI result hint of his identity. Don't know anything about his methods other than what is posted here which may or may not be accurate. He may be a completely detestable person.. or he may not. But probably safe to say he knows a wee bit about dog training to have achieved that accomplishment.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'd spontaneously run up my wall and do a backflip if I ever even came close to qualifying for FCI let alone actually going and competing.

I don't know who we're talking about, didn't look him up either. Maybe he's a total jerk, maybe not. I know some people who call my training director a lunatic. OK then, go train somewhere else...


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## suzzyq01 (Feb 15, 2011)

I think it is very rare to find a Schutzhund (European) trainer that is "well balanced." lol

I can tell you that I've had three experiences with Schutzhund trainers. Two trainers (American) were very rude, to the point, and didn't offer much positive reinforcement, mostly negative ("Your dog is broken" one of them told me). The German Schutzhund trainer was outstanding (he is also a FCI judge). He was very calm, cool, and pointed out our mistakes and then told us how we could do it better. He preached his way works, but it's not the word of god, there are other ways to skin a cat, this is just what works best for him. I learned SO much from this man and have really began to excel in Schutzhund tracking with Sonar because of it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

But just because you are a good enough dog trainer to get those results does NOT mean that you are a good people trainer. Big difference.

And why are you complaining on a forum about him? Either you are impressed enough to stay and take his abuse, or you aren't. It seems like you are trying to argue a point and I'm not sure why.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Because the trial was full of malinois and WL dogs-and he was a 1 man team from a small European country.....wiht a SL dog....actually that he passed was commendable.

What many here are not considering is that owners of SL dogs NEED them titled and titled quickly in order to show, koer and breed. They don't want to spend 2-3 years getting it all right - quick and dirty and Sch1 with 70 70 80 lets them forget about the training field for the most part. Without the resilence and higher drive that that the WL comparatively has, compulsion is the method of choice of most professional trainers. That and letting the work be very very sloppy in order to keep the dog from totally shutting down (MOST - MOST - not all so don't crucify me!) I have seen some training that I would not let happen to my own dog as well - but it gets the job done, the owner is satisfied to get a title and the dog never has to pick up a dumbbell again (as an example)....

Don't condemn the trainer as an individual - he is a cog in the show world - the dogs need those titles in order to breed - and actually, if they survive the training enough to get the title, that says a little something about the dog too.

Lee


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

*Lee*- His dog is not a sl but a bicolor wl from europe- and my complaint with him as an individual is with his PEOPLE skills or lack thereof as a paying client who should be treated with constuctive criticism and respect working towards a common goal. 
*Chris*- the irony in this whole issue is that I did send him an email outlining my issues with his training methods and if we were to continue he would have to throttle back his derogatory style and personal attacks- his answer was "thanks for the email". That says a lot about his people skills set regardless of his dog training abilities.

The purpose of this thead was to find out if others have had similar experiences in attempting to title their dogs. We dealt with him for 3 months in 08 and my wife had issues as a handler and we bought a dog from him then who was from Haus Juris. So there has been history here.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Not a person I personally admire - just presenting some food for thought...my mistake about the dog in the FCI - I assumed it was a SL - but if he trained with the same attention to detail as normally shown to SL, those would be pretty similar scores...

Common enough behavior from alot of trainers - dog and equine - esp European ones!!! Not disagreeing with your take on it - just saying it is common and not surprising....

Lee


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

*Then this I know* - this dog sport business/training is not my bag- I have a tennis coach because tennis is my passion as my dogs are- NEVER have I experienced such treatment/behavior from people in the real sports world in a one on one sport.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why is this about business? Can't you just enjoy training and trialing your dogs without the business aspect? 



> The purpose of this thead was to find out if others have had similar experiences in attempting to title their dogs.


My answer is no, if I truly feel someone is being abusive to me or my dogs I don't give them five minutes let alone three months. I'm training a dog for a BH right now and we just do obedience around our house and then meet with friends on local soccer fields a few times a week. I also belong to a SchH club on Sunday and SDA club on Thurs and will be going back to an obedience club on Wed but nobody tells me how to train and handle my dog. I belong to the club to support and get support from others, for the facilities and the equipment, for the helpers/decoys. If I need help, then I ask. If I want my dog worked in protection, I tell the decoy what equipment to use, what I want to work on, when/if to give the dog a bite, how to give the dog a bite, etc.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Vandal said:


> I have trained with some outstanding trainers who literally wiped the floor with me. Didn't like it much but I will say, I learned more from those people than anyone else. People say the same thing about me at times. Many people involved in SchH now simply want to" have fun". They are not as interested in _really_ learning. I know, everyone will now say " Oh I want to learn!" but most only want to learn a certain way. Sometimes, the best knowledge is not delivered in a way we all like. It can be "uncomfortable". There is a personality type that goes hand in hand with successful people or people who are really good at something and who have spent their life learning it. Most of those people can't stand to see it done "wrong" and I personally, feel for the dogs when I watch people making one mistake after the other.
> 
> Also, the best helpers I have ever worked with all had a certain type of personality. They play the part when they are working dogs and therefore, you might just get yelled at. Unless you are someone who does helper work well, you might not understand what I am saying. It is simply not possible to be "in character" and then come out of it for those few seconds to instruct the handler. I will say this. When I am not all over what you are doing, it is because I don't care. I always tell people, worry when I stop talking....or yelling for that matter.


I get yelled at every training session....my poor dog.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I suppose I am used to this style from gymnastics. The idea there was that no one is perfect, we were *always* doing *something* wrong. Like Anne said, if you weren't getting verbally assaulted, then you were worried. Nobody ever got on me about getting better because they didn't care.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

armauro said:


> ... I did send him an email outlining my issues with his training methods and if we were to continue he would have to throttle back his derogatory style and personal attacks- his answer was "thanks for the email". That says a lot about his people skills set regardless of his dog training abilities.


The way I look at things like this is I'm not paying the person for their people skills. I'm paying for whatever expertise they have.

My surgeon has the bedside manner of a rattlesnake and is the most conceited person I've ever met ... but he has the hands of a god and that's why I chose him!


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

I am beyond such actions- if you are willing to tolerate it so be it but it does not make it correct behavior- this is a HOBBY by choice meant to be FUN- there is no comparison to a surgeon with/out bedside manner.
In the workplace today this would not be tolerated for one minute without a civil action against the abuser.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> In the workplace today this would not be tolerated for one minute without a civil action against the abuser.


I don't want to pile on here. Just want to say that this doesn't fit your situation. You are not employed by this man, you hired him. If he is following you around and calling you all the time, that might start to fit into something like stalking. However, he barely answered your e-mail. So, no worry there. 

He can only be charged with "poor customer relations" at this point.


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

*Vandal-*I agree and certainly not worried about that- maybe not a good analogy used by me.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Oh heck, I guess I will say a couple of more things about this topic. My comments are not just about you though. I think everyone should consider what I am about to say.



> this is a HOBBY by choice meant to be FUN


For many people this is absolutely true, it is as you say. However, other people take it a bit more seriously and I think you might agree that is their right to view it that way. 
The trick is finding the right place to train where the people view it like you do. I only enjoy training that is conducted a certain way. That training requires everyone to be on their toes and where I am not there having to explain every little thing. I will be the first to admit that I am not someone for a novice to train with. I simply don't have the patience. Took me a while to realize that but I have finally come to that conclusion.

I use this analogy to make things clear to people who want to train with me: If you don't want to train like the Lakers play basketball, don't show up to the Lakers training camp. I don't enjoy average training or training that requires that the dogs are worked at a much lower level than they are capable of. So, people with more experience do better training with me than those with less. Of course, there are the few exceptions who clearly are very interested and seem to handle the "baptism by fire" better than even some of the experienced types. That's where we get into personalities and that matters as well.

You sound like you just put up with way too much of a situation that didn't fit you or your personality. So, I guess the trick will be to find a better fit next time and to quit before you are this upset. Sure, when someone is paying, the person should conduct themselves professionally. Since I don't accept money for SchH training, I can't really comment on that aspect.

Good luck with your new dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

armauro said:


> I am beyond such actions- if you are willing to tolerate it so be it but it does not make it correct behavior- this is a HOBBY by choice meant to be FUN- there is no comparison to a surgeon with/out bedside manner.
> In the workplace today this would not be tolerated for one minute without a civil action against the abuser.


Actually you must have worked in a sort of sheltered "business world" - there are environments where yelling and insults are very common.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I trained with someone who was great with the dogs but quite abusive with people. I did not like the abusive part but I lived with it and it was a good learning experience. I finally left this trainer because he pressured me to get rid of one of my dogs he did not like. This dog was not a sch talent, but was not aggressive as the trainer said. He was a great dog and I would never get rid of him.

It seems that sch trainers are very passionate and this is a manifestation of it. Passion is good, they care (as opposed to someone not caring and not yelling). So I try to view it positively.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

armauro said:


> He uses very harsh methods on the dogs he is training by my standards and probably the ASPCA- shock collars are ok within reason but not to cripple the dog to its feet.


Is this part for real? I am not sure how that works or what it means?


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My experience with the business world was total dishonesty, lies, stealing.
I will take sch arrogance over the business world any time.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

armauro said:


> this is a HOBBY by choice meant to be FUN-


Hmm.. not exactly. For those competing at such a high level (world championships in mind!) it is a HUGE part of your life, and something you commit to and train for 100%, no matter what. Not justifying, just stating.

My trainer has a mean mouth on him, but he is incredible and has taken numerous dogs to a national level. I'll put up with some screaming at me (because, I AM doing something wrong if I'm getting the screaming!) if it means taking my dog as far as I want her to go.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I still don't get the drama. You don't like the guy, you move away...

If dogs are a passion then you search until you find someway how to train. If it is a hobby, you look for another hobby that suits you better, happy end.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Do not go to work in an operating room! 

I don't even have the exuse of being a "mad helper ", but if I stop "yelling" at you it's a bad sign. I have then given up! It is hard for some people to keep it all warmy schwarmy if they are passionate about something. I often take it has a high favor if a good teacher deems me worthy of chastising. They just smile and nod at the hopeless.  

I have seen some heavy handed and poor training in a few places sadly. But, I can fortunately say that I have also been able to find really good places to train at times.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

armauro said:


> Started training my now 15 month old gsd about a month and a half ago for his BH- the trainer who is European is well known was once a judge and does work for some popular kennels for quick titling- we used him in 08 and had some of the same issues.
> He uses very harsh methods on the dogs he is training by my standards and probably the ASPCA- shock collars are ok within reason but not to cripple the dog to its feet. Problem is I am the handler of my showline and am a perfectionist in most issues in life but my 2 gsds are a HOBBY and as such are supposed to be fun.
> On the training field he becomes totally verbally abusive in a derogatory way to me- no constructive criticsm just nasty remarks-on and on- ironically off the field he is quite pleasant- FINALLY Tuesday with the trials a week away on his field I emailed him to the effect that he must curtail this abusive treatment of me the paying client or we must stop training.
> His response was thanks for the email.
> ...


I know football coaches can be real rough during practice, not sure about tennis or golf, but if you don't like this trainer then fire his butt and get someone else!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Is the yelling necessary because people who do schutzhund are deaf?? If you are not doing it for fun...the purpose is...?? How many people compete at high levels


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Is the yelling necessary because people who do schutzhund are deaf?? If you are not doing it for fun...the purpose is...??


That's a very good question and I am going to try to answer it honestly. I have actually sat and thought about why I might feel compelled to yell at someone. Well, it depends on what is going on. I think I can be at my toughest with people who are handling a dog from my breeding. Then I REALLY care and it bugs me to no end to see someone fumbling around with something I have so much to do with. I suppose you could maybe compare it to watching someone else UNFAIRLY discipline your kid. The key word there is unfair.

People who are new, whether they intend to or not, are unfair to their dogs most of the time. Either by not praising, not correcting, raising their voice , over-reacting to what the dog does, etc, etc. I know dogs and I read them really well. So, I am watching what is happening to their dog while they are there either not listening, not responding, fidgeting, arguing, etc. Pretty soon, I start to feel like they are not hearing me because nothing improves. So, I say it a little louder....

Now that's just obedience I am talking about. It is MUCH easier to stay calm when I am teaching that, unless of course it is heeling. That require the handler to be doing so many things at once, and with the right timing...things get intense pretty quickly. Almost always now, I will take the dog and work him for a few sessions until the dog knows enough for the handler to take over. I feel too bad for the dog otherwise and that seems to spare the handler as well.

In protection, it is much more difficult. As I said earlier, if you play the part of the "bad guy", there is a level of intensity that goes with that. You might say I am as "loaded" as I want the dog to be. It takes quite a bit of work and intensity to get to, and maintain, the right drive level in protection...... and then...here comes the handler ...lol....and takes it all away. That's when the yelling is coming from another place, not just from a feeling of not being heard. 

I really wonder if people can understand this unless they work dogs as the helper or if they have ever tried to teach another person something, while what you are teaching is in progress. Maybe trying to teach someone to drive a car would be a good comparison. Meaning, they are behind the wheel and the car is moving and you have only a few seconds to tell them how to avoid the tree. Try it and see how calm and quiet your voice is.
Dog training requires lots of skill and timing. Teaching someone that with a live dog there on the receiving end of their mistakes is not really fun. Which leads me to my next comment.

Lots of people have complained to me about not having fun. While they were doing that, they never once stopped to consider if I was having fun. They were happy to be there collecting the knowledge that has taken me decades to learn but many times didn't lift a finger to help me to help them, or, to help me teach another person. They were happy to sit on the sidelines and complain though. 
It is really exhausting teaching people. Believe it or not, just talking is exhausting and when you have to say the same thing over and over to the same person about the same thing, you might just start to get annoyed. Like many people, when I am really tired, I tend to get a little grumpy. Or like I said, when you say it three times and there is no response, you will say it louder because you think they are not hearing you.

Perhaps people could consider how much effort the person teaching you is putting into it. When you worry about how much fun you are having, maybe take a look at that person out there teaching everyone else, and see if they look like they are enjoying themselves. Or, maybe ask them if they need your help. Speaking only for myself, I would appreciate that more than anyone could imagine , but I have experienced it only on very rare occasions. A simple thank you goes a long way as well.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I can not say that I have experienced anyone being mean or abusive to people who were training. There is sometimes communication that might seem like yelling to some folks. If the teacher was trying to communicate something of value then the delivery was not the core of it.

I never did understand doing something half way for fun though. I was a driven student from kindergarten so perhaps I am too serious! Doing something really well is difficult and getting it right is fun!!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Doing something really well is difficult and getting it right is fun!!


Exactly.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Have you ever taught anyone to drive a car? Would you be very effective in doing so by yelling and being otherwise abusive to them? Doubtful!

just because the trainer is intense and a perfectionist is no reason not to have a few people skills. Ever hear "You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar!".

I have switched obedience skills because my first trainer had not a people or communication skill in her entire body. very abusive almost to the point one would think her purpose was not to teach you how to train the dog but simply to humiliate you. (Didn't work as i am very hard to humiliate having gone thru basic training many years ago and underwent humiliation by experts (DI's) and that didn;t work either.)

The Obedience instructor I have now is even more of a perfectionist (being a licensed O and Rally judge of many years) but she is a MUCH more effective instructor and can get her points across much better and even manages to find SOMETHING to praise.

Might want to try it.

How about training a dog with NO praise or treats or other reward - how effective would that be in gaining a well trained happy working dog?

Doesn't a beginner trainer deserve to be treated at least as well as the dog?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Samba said:


> I can not say that I have experienced anyone being mean or abusive to people who were training. There is sometimes communication that might seem like yelling to some folks. If the teacher was trying to communicate something of value then the delivery was not the core of it.
> 
> I never did understand doing something half way for fun though. I was a driven student from kindergarten so perhaps I am too serious! Doing something really well is difficult and getting it right is fun!!


 
Would you ever play tennis or golf even though you are never going to be able to play as well as the pros? Maybe play it as well as YOU can - wouldn't that be fun?

Ever watch the folks coming out of the obedience ring? - some of them have a good time no matter what their dog does as long as he behaves himself while others come out and you know from their face and mannerisms that they did not have a good time because they didn't get the magical 200 or maybe HIT. I pity some of those dogs when they get around the corner and out of sight. From the dog mannerisms and behavior they also have a good idea of what is coming.

To each their own - some do OB competitively and others do it just to interact with their dog and have a good social time. Not my place to say what is right or wrong - just do your own way and enjoy it.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I do it for fun, believe me it is a blast of laughs! 

I have some good times in the backyard, but then I haven't imposed on someone 's time, good nature, knowledge and experience as to how to accomplish backyard fun! 

Tricks class is a giggle too!

Now, if someone just wants to mess around in a venue and not improve. That is fine too, not to worry about me spoiling their fun. A smile, a nod and on go those who want to do the best they can. 

I did play tennis very badly. Worked really hard, got yelled at a bunch, sweated it out on courts and shut the lights off on the courts many nights all alone. It was hard, it was frustrating...I made varsity. It was not easy...but it was fun!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I praise with as much intensity as I do the rest. Most people don't seem to recall that part though. Just like some people on this forum seem to forget what I wrote when they respond or insert their weird and inaccurate interpretations into it. 
I'm getting used to it though!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I do know of people who take things out on their competition partner if things don 't go well in the run. Of course, if they are with me, they are going to get "yelled" at for that! 

If you do well, I practically lick you though! In fact, I will sacrifice my own time and dog training to help the truly interested for free and they will know when it is going along right in some way! 

Of course, people should find what fits for them.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Vandal said:


> That's a very good question and I am going to try to answer it honestly. I have actually sat and thought about why I might feel compelled to yell at someone. Well, it depends on what is going on. I think I can be at my toughest with people who are handling a dog from my breeding. Then I REALLY care and it bugs me to no end to see someone fumbling around with something I have so much to do with. I suppose you could maybe compare it to watching someone else UNFAIRLY discipline your kid. The key word there is unfair.
> 
> People who are new, whether they intend to or not, are unfair to their dogs most of the time. Either by not praising, not correcting, raising their voice , over-reacting to what the dog does, etc, etc. I know dogs and I read them really well. So, I am watching what is happening to their dog while they are there either not listening, not responding, fidgeting, arguing, etc. Pretty soon, I start to feel like they are not hearing me because nothing improves. So, I say it a little louder....
> 
> ...


 
The problem with trying to help another person when you have less experience is that you get reminded of that or told that your ideas won't work or where did you get that idea from some silly AKC class I have however told new people that it is not worth crying about and I have to keep reminding myself of that too It is good though that you recognize that you are not good with novices and don't do that anymore


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

To the OP, I have never experienced that in the dog world-yet. Thank goodness! But, I would leave. It's not worth it. LEAVE, Please!!!  

For you (and others like myself), training should be fun and something we enjoy that doesn't stress us out. As I start competitive obedience training with my dog, I have found there are all sorts of people. Some people are super intense and want their dogs to be robots. They get, genuinely, mad and crushed if either they or their dog screws up...even a little. Others, really don't care. They are just training for passing scores not really HIT stuff. I am in the middle. I want to try my best but do it as long as the dog and I are having fun! If we screw up, ok learn from it and move on and give my dog a hug. At the end of the day, they are still our dog and not just a competition vehicle for titles. 

So far, I am really happy with the trainer I have found. She fits my style and is very positive. I think that has made a big difference. I just like her thinking and methods. It makes me comfortable and *my dog is happy in her presence*. I also like how she corrects constructively; demonstrates what I did wrong; and then shows me how to fix it. Plus, the big sign for me is my dog really responds to her upbeat style. She also is checking for any stress to make sure we are not putting too much pressure on the puppy. In fact, she even makes me bring her favorite toy and then she'll tell me to "go play with your puppy" and watches my pup too make sure she is energetic and happy. I guess dogs won't play if they are stressed. Makes sense. I think you will be able to tell a lot from your dog. Is your dog happy with this person or stressed and panting and such? I would never let anyone use an electric collar on my dog. That's insane, people! You know what, you know deep down inside. You are probably upset because your dog is upset and you love your dog. Follow your heart and listen to your dog. Hard to go wrong there!!

So, my advice, not that it matters or I am anyone special, is to follow your heart and listen to your dog! You are his protector as he can't speak- so listen. If you are hugging him after in the car apologizing to him or watching the training and feel your heart sink than it's time to move on. Departures are hard and can get messy (I'm from a horse background too and know what that is like) but at the end of the day you have to do what will make you and your dog happy.....


Good luck!!!!!!


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## armauro (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for the sincere response and I have moved on even though this sets back his training schedule for a month or two- REMEMBER this was about the BH- a title that is pass/fail and a lot of slack is given so why should it be so serious that I am pissed off and the dog indirectly reacts to the tirades. He sometimes thinks he is getting yelled at and recoils.


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## ninemaplefarm (Mar 2, 2010)

armauro said:


> Thanks for the sincere response and I have moved on even though this sets back his training schedule for a month or two- REMEMBER this was about the BH- a title that is pass/fail and a lot of slack is given so why should it be so serious that I am pissed off and the dog indirectly reacts to the tirades. He sometimes thinks he is getting yelled at and recoils.


Good for you!! High five!!! :thumbup:

That's ok if he is set back time wise as he will catch up and be much happier for it.....

Good luck and best wishes enjoying your dog!!


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Samba said:


> Doing something really well is difficult and getting it right is fun!!


This is a great line and so very, very true. But the nuts and bolts of training can be frustrating and a bit scary. And I hate trialing. But coming off of the field after a well done trial performance is one of the best feelings I've ever had. 

I think the reason the OP might be having a different feeling than some of the more seasoned schutzhunders about being yelled at is because of the pay to play situation. Back in the day if you wanted to learn about the sport you paid by taking a bunch of crap. And the person person teaching and yelling at you wasn't paying their car note by you training with you. Therefore they did care if you left in a huff and never came back. This made clubs a lot different than they are now. 

I think that this change in clubs has had an affect on the dogs too. Now that people are thinking that a schutzhund club should be like a golf or tennis club. Clubs have lost their hardness. It's like they turned a pirate ship into the Love Boat. And the environment of the Love Boat is not conducive to the violence and aggression of protection work. A ***** cat can't train a lion.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

The thing is just because something is a hobby doesn't mean it isnt a serious endeavor with serious money involved, I have a thick skin when it comes to instructors, I don't take it personally, having a horse showing background I can't even count the times I was yelled, screamed at and cussed out, it wasnt personal against me, I knew what the intentions were, I sought a very popular, though well known tyrant to help me prepare my horse for her Futurity, in a learning class she missed her lead and I will never forget the horror when he screamed at the top of his lungs " YOU BLEW THE LEAD, YOU BLEW THE CLASS, GET OUT" I had been in the process of quickly correcting it without being seen by the judge, needless to say he didn't need to see it, I was red faced and pissed off, but... 90 days later the filly won her Futurity. I don't mind a lambasting if it's critical crticism helping me to improve, I'm a big girl and have no problems hearing the truth. LOL.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The reason I go to training is to get a critique on my handling skills(AKC obedience)...if my trainer constantly told me I was doing well when I really wasn't that would not be fair to me or my dog. My trainer is looking for precision first so we don't have to fix it later.

Though just like with us training our dogs, praise goes a long way, and yes it does feel good when we get it right or make a bit of progress.

If I leave the field crying, whatever....hopefully I'll go back that much stronger next week.
That said, I was with a SchH club for almost a year that I ended up dreading going to. I got no support and the praise was not there either.
My dog was young, I wasn't pushing him to be further along in our training.... the group was all about rushing it seemed and I didn't like that(rather have a strong foundation than a shaky one) so I quit the club.
Felt great that I didn't have to drive West every week, I now drive East to another ScH group (pay to play) with a smile on the way and sometimes on the way home, depending on what we worked on. Every session is a learning experience, even without progression.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm so glad I found this post. Actually I was bored and didn't even understand the title so much... but I sure understand the OP's feelings and reading the replies opened my eyes. Well, at the same time I'm even more confused.

Just had a scary, weird, overwhelming first obedience class. I've planned to make a post about it, but have to gather my thoughts in better order first. I felt like an idiot. He zeroed in on me like no other. It was bad. 

I am an instructor myself (in another field, obviously) and it IS TRUE that if you don't care, you don't "ride" your students. But I DO care.. and I have a reputation for being "tough." BUT at the same time, I try to be FAIR and tough, but I still call 'em out. I don't, however, do it in a way to decimate their ego - but I'll break it if I sense it is in the way. 

Anyway, this thread gives me more insight on what we dealt with recently. I'll be looking forward to following it, as I have a big decision as to whether to return to that class next week.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

holland said:


> Is the yelling necessary because *people who do schutzhund are deaf*?? If you are not doing it for fun...the purpose is...?? How many people compete at high levels


I am, what's your point?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

My post was not directed at you-I made my point


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