# Is grabbing the scruff OK



## POWERSCOL

By grabbing, I mean a firm, not hard hold

Emma and I were having play time with the tug, fetch, rub her ears, tummy, etc., that proceeded to her getting really would up, jumping, running, lots of barking,nipping and other snarling similar to her tug snarl when she is pulling hard. (tail wagging whole time).

She then got a bit aggressive (high energy play). Usually if she get feisty or a bit hard, I say easy and try to roll her into a tummy/body rub, avoiding her teeth. This time she got a hold of me and bit hard and would not let go. No verbal command worked I yelled ouch, said No and Off. So I grabbed her scruff, she whimpered and released, and so did I. 

I figured she was just testing the play boundary's being 12 weeks old. However She came back and licked like she was sorry, then grabbed my arm again (hard). This time I had to grab her scruff again (she released, but tried to get me again). So this time I held her down (on her side) and held her until she settled down. The verbal cues were Don't bite, stop and settle down. I did not garb hard, just enough to hold. She put up quite a struggle for a long few seconds (wining and a bit of yelping), I then yelled STOP loudly and she immediately stopped struggling, so I released. She then settled down and licked me. 

I felt bad afterwards and after about 10 minutes of time out started to play tug again. Everything was fine this time.

Was she testing me? Did I do wrong? Was there something else I should have done? She did draw blood on both bites, but Ill heal.

She is back to her normal self under my feet, with her paws warped around my ankle.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

Thanks


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## Charlie W

Hi,

I have a 5 month old GSD and a 3 year old Doberman, when the pup gets too much for the Dobie, he pins her to the ground with his front legs, she squeals and he releases her when she stops..So I reckon what you're doing is using body language that she understands. 
At 12 weeks she is testing the boundaries which is perfectly normal, she'll learn


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## Shade

I'm ok with scruffing as long as it's warranted and not overly harsh.


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## POWERSCOL

Thanks
She is being one wound up mischievous fireball tonight:crazy: - hopefully she will wear out soon - its just about bed time


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## Verivus

I grab Kaiser by the scruff all the time because he doesn't wear a collar in the house. He's never reacted to it negatively. My little one acts like she's being killed if I scruff her.


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## onyx'girl

get a flirtpole. Remove your body parts from the equation. I hate it when I see people using their hands to excite a young puppy. Better to use a two handle tug or flirtpole so the pup learns to target the proper thing. Once the puppy starts teething, tug should be put on hold or done gently. Which is hard, because wearing the pup out is fun with tug, once that option is removed, you have to do other things(tracking!)to work the brain.
Scruffing should only be done if/when necessary, and I doubt I've done it much at all. Though my dogs don't wear collars, so now and then I do grab the neck fur to move them or stop them, but it isn't a 'bite' type scruff.


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## volcano

You gotta do what you gotta do. I did it a couple times, I wasnt happy because that wasnt my plan with my pup but she has to learn. Im happy to say shes increased her bite inhibition on me, now shes like an alligator with bite inhibition which means she can still get you by mistake. I only scruffed her when she was wild and I got frustrated.


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## Galathiel

I'd have to echo Chrissy. It really depends on the dog. It wasn't harsh with either, more of a 'no collar, hold you back for a sec' kind of restraint. I had a dog that it didn't bother at all. I later had his half-brother and if you did that he would scream hehe. So .... he had to wear a collar all the time in the house.


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## pfitzpa1

I do it on rare occasions. I've read it's not a good method of correction because it is a very "emotional" correction for the dog.


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## BMWHillbilly

I don't hesitate to scruff. It's a momma dog correction and really works.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> Emma and I were having play time with the tug, fetch, rub her ears, tummy, etc., that proceeded to her getting really would up, jumping, running, lots of barking,nipping and other snarling similar to her tug snarl when she is pulling hard. (tail wagging whole time).


Like what was said to get something like a flirt pole is a good idea. 

Here is a general rule I have with puppies - if I start it, and get them going, I am not going to punish them for not understanding the rules of the game (that I never taught them). I am going to get up and walk away, put them in their bed quietly, whatever, but I started it, they didn't and I should know that I am winding them way up beyond their ability to stop themselves. 

I watch my dogs when I have foster puppies - they play with them, but they don't escalate the play. 

When the puppy starts to get ramped up, they don't ramp them up more, they turn their heads first. They get up and walk away next. And at that point, I step in and help them out if needed. http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...duce-you-my-leetle-friends-5.html#post1531106 has some pics of 2 foster pups first meeting 2 adults here. 

The puppies learn bite inhibition - how to use their mouth nicely (I am lucky to have the dogs do this for me so I understand it is MUCH harder to do as a person). Something in your post is sticking with me that your puppy is not learning the inhibition part and I am not sure if it's the rolling thing or what...hopefully someone else will read and see it. 

Teaching Bite Inhibition - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## Lilie

I do not scruff my dogs as a correction. I am not a dog. I am a human. My dogs respect me as such. 

If I have escalated the game using my own body parts to the point that my pup is biting me and drawing blood then I should scruff myself. 

If I am using a toy and my pup/dog continually misses the toy and goes for my body parts, then I'll find a different toy. A flirt pole or a toy on a rope. 

If my pup/dog becomes so wound up during a game that it becomes uncontrollable then that tells me that I need to up it's exercise.


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## wolfy dog

Lilie said:


> I do not scruff my dogs as a correction. I am not a dog. I am a human. My dogs respect me as such.
> 
> If I have escalated the game using my own body parts to the point that my pup is biting me and drawing blood then I should scruff myself.
> 
> If I am using a toy and my pup/dog continually misses the toy and goes for my body parts, then I'll find a different toy. A flirt pole or a toy on a rope.
> 
> If my pup/dog becomes so wound up during a game that it becomes uncontrollable then that tells me that I need to up it's exercise.


Agree for 100% but in the real world when WD was a sharky pup and he ran after my legs in a situation where there weren't toys, flirt poles or collars within reach I had to do this a few times. Nothing harsh; holding him by the scruff, looking him in the eyes and telling him "Leave it". It made an impression (he looked at me like "I get it!") and he is still very much OK with me as of today.


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## Lilie

wolfy dog said:


> Agree for 100% but in the real world when WD was a sharky pup and he ran after my legs in a situation where there weren't toys, flirt poles or collars within reach I had to do this a few times. Nothing harsh; holding him by the scruff, looking him in the eyes and telling him "Leave it". It made an impression (he looked at me like "I get it!") and he is still very much OK with me as of today.


True, I agree. I think there is a big difference in holding a dog by the scruff and correcting the dog by holding it down by the scruff while the pup/dog yelps.


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## Castlemaid

What Lillie and Jean said! 

Powers, from your other threads, you have high-drive working pup - at this age, the secret to surviving the land-shark phase is not harsher discipline, but better management. All that enthousiasm and play that is now directed at biting human body parts, you want to preserve and teach her to focus and direct it elsewhere, NOT try to supress it. I was saying in my other threads that I love her personality - respect her personality, continue working with it as you have done so far. 

You were saying that she has started bringing you toys for you to play with her - encourage her to do just that. Start associating that with a phrase so you can put that behaviour to a command. When you see that she is about to do it (when she is not all excited and can't control herself), tell her "Bring me the tuggy" (or whatever phrase you want to use). When playing with her, have the tuggy around and encourage her to take it and bring it to you for play. Then when you see at other times that she is getting ramped up and biting is almost sure to occur, tell her to bring you her tuggy! Eventually She should be able to do just that on her own.


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## POWERSCOL

Lucia and everyone - Thanks I think I am beginning to understand. When I picked Emma out of the litter I thought I was getting a mellow girl. I cant imaging how the rambunctious one they called "Terror" is doing.:wild:

Emma is much calmer today and has even completed a couple of "Downs successfully. Its like she is listening more. Her mouthing is much more under control, and even when she got would up playing, she responded to the first "Stop" command and dialed it down. We wound up in one of our play wrestling matches (I'm on the floor with her) and there were no full mouth chomps - she was very genital but firm. I lost in a face wash

She did bring me her tug toy for play again so I made time for her and praised her for doing it. (on edit I need to keep stashes of treats closer at hand to better reward her). I also was in town and got her some Zukes - she likes the wild rabbit. Her big surprise was a Bullystick - she loves it.

Ill use the scruff sparingly if at all, as I now know it can cause issues. Today I tried cradling the face in my hands (was rubbing behind her ears) so there was eye contact on a correction - it worked well.

Thanks again - I am in a steep learning curve here and want to do it correctly. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks - Keith

PS She even did well with the horses this morning - she actually listened to my wife and stopped barking and did not go into the stalls.


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## Sitz&Platz

I don't punish my dogs with my hands, because I want them to associate my hands/touch with good things. If biting is such a big issue, you could leave the leash on to correct your puppy when the playing gets too rough.


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## northgashepherds

Grabbing the scuff is not always a bad thing, but GSDs cannot stand being held down. This actually will eventually make them more aggressive. I've experienced that with my 1st dog. If your puppy starts to play too aggressively walk away from her immediately or crate her for a time-out. Whenever my 2nd puppy would nip at me, snap at my cat over food, etc, I would give her a stern "Ah-ah", or "no", and put her in her kennel for about 30 seconds. Afterwards I would let her back out and let her know that no one was mad at her. She quickly learned not to bite or snap and that good things come out of playing nicely. I try to keep training as positive as possible.


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## Castlemaid

Don't use the scruff shake at all. There is absolutely no need to get physical with a pup, holding it down, trying to make is 'submit' by force. Hard with a pup that is still learning self-control and the appropriate boundaries of play, but that is where our higher intelligence self-disciplines come in. Have a plan of action ready to deal with the puppy crazies.


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## POWERSCOL

Lucia
Question on GSD's being on their backs being held down.

Emma likes me to rub her chest and belly and she freely roles over for it. When I do this I am only holding her lightly to be able to rub her chest/neck with both hands, and tummy. I roll her side to side in the process She wiggles a lot and play growls. She has a real sensitive spot behind her ears that really gets her vocalizing the play. She can free herself with a little bit of effort - part of the game, then comes right back for more buy putting herself under my hands and rolling over. Is this OK or am I teaching something bad.

It was in this position where she got really hyper the other day, leading to the hold on her side with the scruff hold I put her in to get her to stop the hard biting. I now know I should have probably tried another way such as getting up and leaving the room.

We played the tummy game today after the training session and she was very good on the bite pressure.

On a funny note - she got me good today with one of her slinky toys. It is a fake raccoon with a squeaker on one end and 12 inches later is a tennis ball sowed in. She had a hold of the tail and was shaking it very hard, growling - then on one of the hard swings she got the tennis ball end in my gut. I let out loud "uhg", she stopped, looked, tilted her head, then gave me a face wash again. She can be so funny with her looks.

Thanks for your thoughts


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## spidermilk

I don't correct because my dog is ultra sensitive and if I say "off/leave it/down" urgently he will respond just because my voice sounds a little intense. That said since he doesn't wear a collar around the house I will gently grab his scruff to put his collar on or something and he doesn't care about that at all or interpret it as punishment. I grab my cats by the scruff all the time because often it is the only way to get them out of the trouble they are getting into (like climbing behind my basement walls!).


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## Castlemaid

What you are describing there is completely different than you trying to subdue your dog by force. That is fine, she is allowing you to hold her down and is enjoying the interaction, and that kind of gentle holding and petting while she is on her back is an excellent trust-building exercise. Don't blow that trust by getting forceful and punitive. 

If you have a good relationship with your dog, and your dog respects you, you will never have to force them to do anything. Stuff my dogs absolutely HATE (Keeta getting a bath, Gryffon getting his nails done), I can get them to do without physically forcing them. Keeta will get in the bath when I tell her to, Gryffon will get up on the sofa where we do the nails, and lie down, and struggle a bit, but eventually stop and allow me to dremel his nails. 

One thing I have noticed just from reading tons of posts over the years on the forum, that often when someone gets bit by their own dog, it is because the dog was ignoring an order, and the owner tried to "make" the dog obey by physically grabbing it and, for example, pulling the dog off the bed, off the sofa, or trying to get the dog into their crate. This from dogs that that knew the commands and have obeyed them in the past, but were now blowing the owner off. The dogs would not stand for being physically pushed around and bit the person. To me, this is a breakdown in leadership and trust in the relationship. There was never a strong respect from the dog in the first place, or they would have obeyed. 

To me, if your dog trusts you, and respects you, then the dog will comply to your request. If you have to force your dog to obey everyday requests, there is something very wrong there. 

But do remember for the time being that you have a puppy, and you are in the process of reprogramming their puppy brain to play and behave in a way different than what their brain is wired to do. That will take time, and in the process, you may end up being a chew toy more than once.


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## POWERSCOL

Yep that is my new name - "chew toy"

Emma is being feisty today - lots of energy. I have had excellent success thanks to your comments. I am redirecting the biting to toys, etc. However she continues to be mindful of the pressure. She got the down command correct a few times too. Starting to work on Stay too - I'm happy with a few seconds right now.

She did do something amazing today - probably a fluke. She had brought out one of my shoes that I leave by the back door (her go potty door). She had just sat down with her nose in it when I caught her. I looked down with her looking up and said in a question voice - "Are you supposed to have that?" she knows its "no" she tilted her head, vocalized in a low voice (I'm sure she said "busted"), picked it up (I thought she was going to try the catch me if you can move) and "*Took it Back to where she got it*"

I was totally stunned and gave her a lot of praise and play for doing that - probably never happen again. Go figure - I love this girl - me being a chew toy and all.


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## Mog

That's pretty cool. At least she realized she was doing something she shouldn't have been and to put it back... even cooler at that age.


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