# Outdoor Living Area



## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Spent 3 days and built this living area for Gunner, who comes to his new home in a week. :wild:
About $350 in materials, but the pavers I got on Kijiiji, and I had 10pcs 2x4 laying around for other projects. 

The house is built with 2x4 frame, 1/2" ply and 3" styrofoam (R12).
Interior of the house is 32" at the high and 28" at the low. 35 x 35 inside.
The whole roof pops out for easy cleaning of wood chips.

The run is 4ft x 14ft x 5 1/2ft tall.
Pavers are 18 x 18 layed on 5" of screening, tamped down and graded.
Magic Sand used to "grout" the pavers.

Just thought I'd share my first outdoor living area.
Comments welcomed.

will


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Is your puppy going to be living there?


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## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

Is Gunner a puppy? Will he be living out doors? In "his" living area? Or in doors with you and your family?


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Very impressive job! I'm thinking if you intend on letting Gunner out there, you're going to have to build another one. Looks like your baby girl has claimed it as her own!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Looks nice. There appears to be substantial space between the bottom rail and the pavers? How will you keep the puppy in. Anything for chew proofing of the lumber?


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

Nicely done!


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Wish I could build like that! I've been looking into building my own agility equipment - too bad I don't have you around to help. Very nice


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Gunner is 5 months old and will arrive in a week.
He will live outside for the majority of they year but will beinside occaionslly and when on good behaviour.

The bottom is a little high, my miscalculation, but I'lll be thorwing some 2 x 4's in there tomorrow just in case.

It holds 5 kids in the doghouse qquite nicely, they are all out there eathing turkey right now.

Had fun building it.

cheers,
will


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> He will live outside for the majority of they year but will beinside occaionslly and when on good behaviour.


I would seriously rethink this living arrangement. A puppy is a baby! You are going to bring home a baby and put him outside by himself? He is going to be very lonely and bored.
GSDs do best when with their family- they are VERY pack oriented.
If he spends the majority of his time outside, when will he learn how to be "on good behavior" when inside?


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

He's a dog, not a baby....double coat dog at that, and he's been outdoors, he know's no different at this point.
It's not like he is going to be isolated out in a cage and have not interaction.
Make me sound so mean.

Too many distractions in the house for him to be in here all the time, but he will be an integrated member of our pack.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

cowboy17 said:


> Gunner is 5 months old and will arrive in a week.
> He will live outside for the majority of they year but will beinside occaionslly and when on good behaviour.
> 
> The bottom is a little high, my miscalculation, but I'lll be thorwing some 2 x 4's in there tomorrow just in case.
> ...


Really?

I take it from the turkey eating comment that you are in Canada as it is Thanksgiving Day. I cannot wrap my mind around how you can put a BABY DOG, ie puppy outside. In 2 months when it is -20oC or more you dog will be 7 months old. How much time do you REALLY think you are going to spend socializing your BABY DOG in that weather? Or are you going to wait for spring when it is warmer? It will be too late then. I wonder how long it will be before your neighbors are complaining about a barking/crying dog?

As far as double coat, who cares with a house that big? A puppy won't be able to fill it up with its body heat.

And even if I could wrap my mind around this, that kennel is WAY too small for a large dog. Heck, my Shih Tzu's kennel was 13'X7.5' and it was only used for pottying.

If there are too many distractions in the home, WAIT to get a dog. A dog is not a accessory that is supposed to fit itself into the family. The human is the one who is supposed to make sacrifices because it is the human who chose to get the dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cowboy17 said:


> Too many distractions in the house for him to be in here all the time, but he will be an integrated member of our pack.


How will you integrate him into your pack when he lives outside and you and your family lives inside? And are you aware that you can _train_ a dog to behave around "too many distractions"? I question how much training and interacting you're going to be doing with this puppy though, you seem more concerned with building a nice doghouse than shaping a nice family companion.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree...and you said this is a working bred dog, he will go insane cooped up in that tiny dog run. 
Wow. 
I just can't do anything but shake my head...and say "poor dog". He's the reason rescues exist. 
I also am continually amazed that people will sell their dogs to homes I'd never consider placing one of our rescues with! We _get_ dogs into rescue from situations like yours!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh, and that grade wire? Kiss it goodbye when your new acquisition gets bored...and he will...the first day...!!!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Nothing like living outdoors for a majority of your life. What a life. He may not be a child, but he's also not a wild animal either - double coat or not.

Why people gets dogs as pets and stick them outdoors by themselves is completely beyond me. What's the point?

OP - I seriously hope you reconsider your dogs living arrangements.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's really nice of you to build the your daughter her very own cage. She looks very happy there.

Your dog should have just enough room to turn around if he bends his neck.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I see you have very close neighbors....how will you keep him from howling/whining/barking so the neighbors aren't irritated?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

A messy yard too. I hope all of that's cleaned up if the puppy is going to have free reign of that yard without supervision. Hopefully he doesn't, but it's worth mentioning.


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## spidermilk (Mar 18, 2010)

There are a ton of resources on this forum that can help you with training your dog to be a perfect gentleman inside. It isn't even difficult. I have 3 male roomies coming and going, friends coming and going, my boyfriend, and a cat (who gets the zoomies) and my dog is never too distracted to behave. Usually he is snoozing behind the couch while everyone else runs around getting ready for work or cooking a big meal.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

You know, a lot of working dogs live outside. I can see that the puppy may need a larger pen at some time but if he gets the one on one interaction he needs he may have it a lot nicer than a lot of pets that chill inside while the folks are a work only to get a 20 minute walk twice a day.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The larger pen would need better wire, a pup or dog will shred that and possibly be injured. 
If I built a full time kennel it would be chain link with no wood supports. And the pavers can damage a dogs pads/nails may get caught in between and tear....pea gravel is softer on them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I really admire people who are handy . Great looking enclosure.
Now for the "think about this" section. Can you put some roof or weather shield on the top so that when it is raining the dog can still be out and dry?

Also, the kennel is situated quit close to the neighbours window which means you are going to have to really be on top of urine smells , (stronger on a male) . You have to be super sure that the waste run off does not leak into the neighbours yard.

Here is my problem with the design , where is the dog going to do its business. The house (nice!) is at the back . That means that it will defecate near the gate . When you are going to see the dog , attend to the kennel hygiene , you are going to have the dog greeting you , jumping up , hitting the gate to get your attention and flicking poop at you . 
I had one dog who came from a kennel and I was warned about its habit poop stomper. No matter how large the kennel its habit was always to poop near the front and then kennel run , pace , smooshing it .

Being adjacent to the neighbours fence you have to be on your toes that they don't agitate or excite the dog from the other side , setting your dog off , barking each time they go through their yard or have guests coming.

I love kennels when they are new . sigh. 

what do you think of the things I have mentioned?

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog could be acclimated to living outdoors easily, so temperature is not a problem .


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I agree that the run looks way too small, and the house is probably too big for a puppy that age if you are expecting them to live out there (versus just using it for short periods for example.)


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Neighbours are decent and we will address any barking issues as they arise.
Cleaning is a daily task, and with four or more exercise sessions in a day, I don't see that as a problem.
as for outdoor living, I've done my due diligence and he will be fine. I say again, it's not like he banished to this little pen and that is his world. He has a kennel inside as well, it just won't be used as much.
As for the yard, it will be puppy proofed tomorrow.

carmspack, I appreciate your comments.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Carmen definitely brought up valid points, which you seem to have thought of. I wish I was as handy as that... Personally, I may get some evil evil glares for this.... but if a dog is well taken care of and socialized, loved, etc., I don't see the difference if it is in an outdoor kennel such as you have built or left inside in a kennel. Actually, in all honesty, if the kennel outside is roomier and everything has been thought of I would rather leave my dog in the bigger area. Good luck and post pictures when you get him!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

idahospud49 said:


> Personally, I may get some evil evil glares for this.... but if a dog is well taken care of and socialized, loved, etc., I don't see the difference if it is in an outdoor kennel such as you have built or left inside in a kennel.


It doesn't sound like we're talking about leaving him in an outdoor kennel vs crated in the house when they're gone, he specifically said that the puppy will _"live outside the majority of the year *but will be inside occasionally*....."_:



cowboy17 said:


> He will live outside for the majority of they year but will be inside occasionally and when on good behaviour.


And: 



cowboy17 said:


> Too many distractions in the house for him to be in here all the time....


So rather than training him to behave appropriately in the house, the puppy will be spending most of the time outside. If he only comes in occasionally I don't see how he's going to be "on good behavior" in the house because he's going to be too excited.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The whining will start the day you put him in there. You may want to buy your neighbors some ear plugs or a gift card for a hotel! A young pup will make noise when left alone, even if he's already use to being kenneled. 

Unless he's been trained with a bark collar which isn't something I'd leave on unattended.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

spidermilk said:


> There are a ton of resources on this forum that can help you with training your dog to be a perfect gentleman inside. It isn't even difficult. I have 3 male roomies coming and going, friends coming and going, my boyfriend, and a cat (who gets the zoomies) and my dog is never too distracted to behave. Usually he is snoozing behind the couch while everyone else runs around getting ready for work or cooking a big meal.


This...and, 



> My wife and I are in the midst of planning a boarding and training facility.
> I need a 'demo' dog to show my skills in training as in the long term I would like to supply "threat" dogs to women who are escaping from abusive relationships and scenario's like that.
> (This may open up a whole new 'discussion')





> what I do want is to enjoy the communication, bond and all the qualities that the dog has to offer.
> This is more a hobby than competitive.


I don't understand how you think you'll teach a dog to be protective of you (or others) without being in the home with you. I'm always a bit bemused by people who think a "guard dog" has to be tied in the front yard, or kenneled...how can they do their job if kenneled outside? The 'bad guys' would take one look, see the coast is clear, and make their way inside.

Plus, IMO, to truly "bond" with a dog, especially a GSD who were bred to be with their people, the dog should be inside and a part of the family. These dogs can be almost velcro dogs, very bonded to their people. He'd love to be inside with your children, since most GSDs think it is their job to take care of the kids in the home. And I don't get "too many distractions"...family, his family, isn't a distraction, it's his _family._ If a dog can't be around his people because they are a "distraction"...what's the point of having one? One thing I hate to see in rescue is a dog who comes in the house and can't walk on the floors (never seen a slick/tile one), afraid of mirrors, afraid of TVs and other typical things "house dogs" see daily...yet I see this often, dogs never desensitized to the "goings on" of a normal every day home, due to living their lives outdoors. 

As for the plan to give Sch dogs to women...the dogs aren't going to be able to protect a woman while kenneled up outside. They'd need to be perfect houseguests, perfectly housetrained and quiet in the home, not antsy and uncomfortable because they've been kenneled outside. That's logistic #1.
#2 is that women in DV situations are often in safe homes, and animals are not permitted to go there...but I guess you'll have to cross that bridge when it presents itself.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Unless he's been trained with a bark collar which isn't something I'd leave on unattended.


Kinda defeats the purpose of having a Sch dog...I'd think...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

tell us more about the dog , Gunner. Is he supposed to be your demo dog?


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

I don't think I am getting myself across...

The dog will be an integrated part of our family. Whether he is in the bedroom crated, or outside crated makes no difference. He will know and love my children and my wife just the same.
He will play games, he will go for walks and he will be a normal dog, but he will sleep outside for the majority of the year.
He lives outside now. He doesn't whine and doesn't bark.
He's now almost 5 months old.

If he was crated in the house, he'd be a terror once that crate door opens.
If he is crated outside, he becomes a terror once that kennel door opens.

Since (yes he will be a demo dog of sorts) he and I will attempt to train and trial in schh, having in the house could negatively impact the efforts that go into his training.

If barking gets out of control, the neighbours are decent and understanding and we will work through it. If he needs to be inside then that is what we will do at that time.


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## Kittilicious (Sep 25, 2011)

cowboy17 said:


> I don't think I am getting myself across...


You are, but the problem is, most of us have our dogs inside with us every moment with the exception of potty breaks & walks/outdoor playtime. 
I personally despise outdoor kennels, they make my stomach turn, but thats because I know/have known too many dogs that live in them and were basically forgotten about as years went by (hard to forget a lump of fur sitting on your feet). And you are right, when they are let out of that kennel they go NUTS.... but wouldn't you? 
Your posts remind me of the type of people who can't understand even paying money for a dog, much less treat it like family.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

cowboy17 said:


> Since (yes he will be a demo dog of sorts) he and I will attempt to train and trial in schh, having in the house could negatively impact the efforts that go into his training.


Ok - I am not taking issue with him being outside but I think that you are wrong that being kept outside is needed to train the dog properly. Some lower drive dogs seem to need that deprivation to work but I think a lot of good working dogs live inside and are family dogs too. I do try to keep my dogs out a lot in the Summer. .... for temperature acclimitization.

I do think the light welded wire and the exposed wood will create problems for you. Cattle panels may make more sense and you may want to look into them - they are 5 x 16 and can be cut with bolt cutters. My fence area is nowhere near as nice as yours and I found some woven horse fence that is a good bit heavier guage (got it cheap; someone ordered a 300' roll of black at tractor supply then did not get it) -- Of course my area is mainly to have a gravel place for mud-days and because the area around the back of the house - forget grass.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

http://www.vangoghkennels.com/pb-htdocs/Adobe Files/house-kennel MA09.pdf

several opinions on the subject in this article, which helped me make my decision.

If for some reason, my posts suggest that the dog will be locked up outside and forgotten about, I am clearly not projecting myself well.

Keeping the dog outside also helps to manage the hair, the house cleaning required, and since my wife does massage from home, it minimizes the "evidence" that a dog lives there.

ALL of my dogs have been part of my family and, I assure you, this dog will be treated better than 95% of dogs out there.

BTW, the entire kennel is tarped in the winter to further protect from the elements.

Carm, where in Ontario are you?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

One deal with women escaping abusive relationships.

Bubba's probably got a gun or a knife....and will not be put off by a mere dog. A lowlife who can beat up a woman may well beat up a dog as some wire is loose in his head.

The dog would be a good alert dog but schutzhund training is not going to do much and for a PPD the person owning the dog needs to step up to the plate and know the training to maintain it..plus a liability and with kids...and probably she may be in an apartment etc. 

For that matter any alert dog and self-defense/weapon may be better route for the woman. Just some things to consider. Any dog trained for this would probably be living in the home with the woman and her kids (what use would one be outside? Plus hubby would probably sneak by and poison it) so your experience with YOUR outside dog may not translate.

So I can't speak to shutzhund and keeping a top level competition dog outside. I know a lot of police do as well. I have no problems with drive and my working cadaver dog who is usually laying next to my feet while I work. And working police dogs who do get put up usually are with the handler most of the day and working a lot.

I do only play tug with him for finding his training materials so, depriavation in that respect, but the right dog likes the interaction and the "hunt" anyway...so I think he would do it without much a physical reward. 

The thread on sport vs working may have some interest for you.......

I would like to see a larger house for the dog lenghtwise. 35 inches is going to force the dog to curl up and not let him stretch out on his side.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if the puppy is 5mths old it's probably not going to escape thru the bottom.

While I don't have a beef with a dog living outside, (to each his own, mine would be mortified at the thought LOL), and the set up you built does look nice..It's just not big enough in my opinion if he's going to spend the majority of his time out there in it. 

While he/she may not be a whiner/barker 'now', it's more likely because they are familiar with the place they are now living,,maybe 'with' other dogs as well? 
So, you may end up with one.

I hope it works out for everyone, I just like to see dogs integrated more fully within their families especially when you there is only one dog. I guess for me , I like my dogs being part of 'everything', dealing with the hair/clean up, whatever, is just part of owning a dog..but to each his own


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Unless he's been trained with a bark collar.





msvette2u said:


> Kinda defeats the purpose of having a Sch dog...I'd think...


People use bark collars often on SchH dogs.
If they are barking in crates waiting their turn during training it drains their energy by constantly barking...so they are corrected for it.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

I've had indoor and outdoor dogs so no problem with that but I've always started pups indoors. 
The kennel looks small for a GSD and the dog house is too tall imo. You want it just large enough for the dog so that it retains his body heat. I'd be a little worried about the wood and fencing too. Chain link for sure.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> I agree...and you said this is a working bred dog, he will go insane cooped up in that tiny dog run.
> Wow.
> I just can't do anything but shake my head...and say "poor dog". He's the reason rescues exist.
> I also am continually amazed that people will sell their dogs to homes I'd never consider placing one of our rescues with! We _get_ dogs into rescue from situations like yours!


 
By some of the comments I've received, I can tell this forum isn't the place for me. I'll continue reading and educating on my own. 
Far too many differing opinions, some of them downright rude, to "help" someone along into a new realm of dog training.
I'm sure all of you started of perfectly and were born knowing how to train.

Some of the comments have been quite constructive and brought up points that I had not thought about. I thankyou for those and will take the advice into consideration.

To the poster of that comment above, you should know the person a little before making comments like that. Completely uncalled for, and this comment alone has chased me away from this forum. ** comment removed by Admin**

What a terrible experience I had here. I exit while I still have some dignity left.


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

@cowboy: This forum is notorious for flaming about dogs kenneled outside, whether it be for the day or living out there. I wouldn't let the off comments drive you away but take in the helpful stuff and use it. Enjoy your new pup and hope you will post up after you get him.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

cowboy17 said:


> By some of the comments I've received, I can tell this forum isn't the place for me. I'll continue reading and educating on my own.
> Far too many differing opinions, some of them downright rude, to "help" someone along into a new realm of dog training.
> I'm sure all of you started of perfectly and were born knowing how to train.
> 
> ...


For the most part, people have been helpful in explaining why the dog shouldn't live outside.

My dog is a member of my family and I would miss him terribly if I only saw him 4 times a day- and I know he would be miserable. 

I don't understand why he would have to be either kenneled inside or outside when you are home- why can't the dog just be hanging out with you? And then when you are not home he can be kenneled. You have high hopes for training, but don't want to train the dog to behave inside. And you want to train dogs for battered women? These women are going to want the dog in the house- with them! When my husband is traveling, my GSD is sleeping right next to me!

Before you write off what everyone is saying because of a rude comment here or there, or because you don't like what people are saying, step back and try to be objective, look at where people are coming from and see how this could benefit the dog.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

I think I would rather spend my day outside in a decent sized enclosure where I could lounge in the sun, stretch out, watch life go by and hey, if it rains, even have a nice place to curl up in and get out of the weather, than be jammed into an indoor crate, that I barely fit into, watching the paint dry on the walls for at least 8 hours each day because that's the politically correct thing to do. Just my opinion, everyone has their own.

Reality of the situation is that, to the best of my knowledge, no one on this website knows the original poster, so as a general statement, stop assuming you know how they will spend their time with their dog. OP asked about the kennel set up, not a critique on how you think they should live their life. 

Me, I think the kennel set up is ok for a pup. I would be concerned for a few things. One, the security of it. I've heard plenty of instances where a bored dog can chew right through wire such as that or even chain link. Make sure to keep a good eye on whether or not the dog is causing any damage to the integrity of the structure. I only trust heavy gauge wire, with a padlock on the gate, because I want to be absolutely sure my dogs aren't going anywhere when I don't have eyes on them. Additionally, I want to make sure that no one is capable of easily breaking into the kennel to take the dog, so the fact that the kennel is homemade would raise a red flag with me for the safety of the dogs. To each his own, though. I think another thing to consider would be what Carmen said about the urination and feces. I train my dogs to not use their kennel unit as a bathroom, but it definitely takes some work and a little luck to teach that. Also, if they do spend the day in their kennel, I try not to leave them more than 8 hours, just as if they were in the house. Just some things to consider.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

> I think I would rather spend my day outside in a decent sized enclosure where I could lounge in the sun, stretch out, watch life go by and hey, if it rains, even have a nice place to curl up in and get out of the weather, than be jammed into an indoor crate, that I barely fit into, watching the paint dry on the walls for at least 8 hours each day because that's the politically correct thing to do. Just my opinion, everyone has their own.


I don't think it's for just when they aren't home, from the sounds of it the dog will LIVE IN THERE! Only leaving 4 times a day because the dog will be too much to have in the house...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think you are going to see a wide range of views. 

You take what is good for you and disregard the rest and if certain posters annoy you, you can choose to "ignore" them so you don't even see their posts. 

On just about any internet forum you are going to hear some stuff you agree with and some you don't


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

abakerrr said:


> Reality of the situation is that, to the best of my knowledge, no one on this website knows the original poster, so as a general statement, stop assuming you know how they will spend their time with their dog.


Who's making assumptions? The OP specifically said that the dog would live outdoors and only come in the house occasionally. I agree with you that a secure outdoor kennel is a fine alternative to being crated in the house for 8 hours a day while everyone is gone at work, but that is not what he's talking about here.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> Comments welcomed.
> 
> will


I haven't read all the posts, I love to keep my dogs outside in my safe backyard when the weather permits, they come inside every night no matter what the weather. All I can say is that if your dog does not come in the house every day, he/she will not learn how to behave properly, he/she will not be intergraded into your family. If you only take the dog in the house on occassion, he/she will become excited and he/she will not know how to act. You will get agrevated that the dog is "unruly" and banish the dog to live outside forever because you never spent the time to teach him everyday how to behave.


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## GSDkid (Apr 19, 2011)

Indoor Dog = Lots of Supervision
Supervision = better training
-------------------------------------
Outdoor Dog = Lonely (SA will probably come)

If the dog lives outside and comes inside on occasions and sees how great being inside is with his whole pack, ofcourse he's going to want to stay inside. So when he comes inside, he's going to be super hyper and because he's not been "House Trained" then he's going to pee, poop, tear everything up.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Who's making assumptions? The OP specifically said that the dog would live outdoors and only come in the house occasionally. I agree with you that a secure outdoor kennel is a fine alternative to being crated in the house for 8 hours a day while everyone is gone at work, but that is not what he's talking about here.


True - this person is making reverse assumptions if you will...



> I think I would rather spend my day outside in a decent sized enclosure where I could lounge in the sun, stretch out, watch life go by and hey, if it rains, even have a nice place to curl up in and get out of the weather, than be jammed into an indoor crate, that I barely fit into, watching the paint dry on the walls for at least 8 hours each day because that's the politically correct thing to do. Just my opinion, everyone has their own.


You do not think there is any middle ground between "living my life completely outside" and "being stuck in a crate inside 8-10 hrs. a day"? How limited is that notion!

Our dogs are indoor pets. We don't make them live outside because there's "too much distractions" inside, and we don't coop them up 8-10hrs. a day. 
I believe there's more cases where dogs live inside as a full-fledged member of the family than of cases where people are gone "at least 8hrs each day" and the dog is crated that entire time.

As someone else said, outdoor kenneling is fine for when you're not home (more secure than the OP built) but once you're home, by all means, bring the dog in the house and interact with it as a member of the family, not a shedding inconvenience. 

And if you're not willing to clean up hair inside, the hair will be outside and be stuck all over that kennel by next spring, if you can't or don't like to clean up hair, this is not the breed for you. And if it _is _ the breed for you, tear out the carpet and sweep or Swiffer your tile floor, or invest in a real nice vacuum!


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I wonder if you can build a false top to your dog house (I think you said it opens on the top so you can clean it). You could insulate the inbetween part. Then when the pup gets older, you can remove the false top. 

I think you'll find during your training that you will be much more successful with your efforts if you kept your pup with you (inside or out) as much as possible. But like most of us on this forum, we've learned the hard way as well. Folks are just trying to tell you that most have been there, done that.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

mikko---

*You have high hopes for training, but don't want to train the dog to behave inside*

Where did I ever say this?

Who here keeps their dogs outdoors? I want to hear from you.
What negative impact have you seen as a result?

4 to 5 walks a day. How many peoples "baby's" get that?

Who here lets a high drive puppy gearing up for SchH roam their house freely and why?

On occasion the dog will be allowed in the house. Occasion to me means perhaps every day, but not for many hours at a time. Did you think I would try to have the dog in the house for one hour a year and expect it to have manners?

For anyone here who has trialed a SchH dog (I have not), in the first 12 months, ow much time does the dog spend in a crate, absorbing the work they did earlier?

Geesh, I bet I'm probably abusive for scattering his kibble on the ground and making him hunt for it once and a while to develop his sniffer.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Lilie said:


> I wonder if you can build a false top to your dog house (I think you said it opens on the top so you can clean it). You could insulate the inbetween part. Then when the pup gets older, you can remove the false top.
> 
> I think you'll find during your training that you will be much more successful with your efforts if you kept your pup with you (inside or out) as much as possible. But like most of us on this forum, we've learned the hard way as well. Folks are just trying to tell you that most have been there, done that.


There is a false top to it and it's insulated as well as the floor. The top drops into the kennel by 7 1/2 inches.

I do realize that some are trying to provide helpfull information.
It's the delivery that sucks.

I can tell that this is a very touchy subject. I've spent now 3 months reading, watching, learning, gathering information and educating myself, just so I can make some basic decisions. I don't even have the dog yet.
This is more than most people put into it.

I'm comfortable with my approach and decision. I will be changing the fencing on the kennel to chain link in the next three weeks.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> There is a false top to it and it's insulated as well as the floor. The top drops into the kennel by 7 1/2 inches.


I meant if the dog house is too big to keep a puppy warm. I wondered if you could temporarily drop the 'ceiling' to make the house smaller, thus allowing the pup's body temp to help keep it warm.

Please remember that I couldn't build a bear if the store employee sat and gave me instructions.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

According to the article you posted...if a dog is kept outside, in the cold, it becomes "tougher" and "wants to be with me more". 

Oookay...

I think you'd do better to listen to some of the folks on this board re: best way to _house_ a "working dog".


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

cowboy17 said:


> I'm comfortable with my approach and decision. I will be changing the fencing on the kennel to chain link in the next three weeks.


Seriously take a good look at the horse PANELS (I meant horse not cattle, spacing is different) at Tractor Supply. One of the breeders I met uses them for some of her stuff (she is sometimes on the forum, jonro) and could give you good advice on outdoor homemade pens.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

cowboy17 said:


> mikko---
> 
> *You have high hopes for training, but don't want to train the dog to behave inside*
> 
> ...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cowboy17 said:


> Who here keeps their dogs outdoors? I want to hear from you.
> What negative impact have you seen as a result?
> 
> 4 to 5 walks a day. How many peoples "baby's" get that?
> ...


Cowboy, I am training a pup in ScH(well he's two now) and he is in the home with two other dogs.
I haven't trialed him yet, it is no rush to me to title and I want him more than ready when we do.
I don't see it as detrimental because I want a stable social dog that knows manners and can settle in all environments. 
He loves to train, looks forward to it. I crate him after sessions in the crate in the vehicle to 'process' his lesson. I also have crates in the house when I need to contain the dogs, but they are good when unsupervised. 
Several of the people I train with keep their dogs in the home with the family(crates are used when unsupervised) only a couple are kennel dogs. 
The kennel dogs are smelly(the owner has to bathe them often), one has dog aggression due to fence fighting with the owners other dogs and are in overdrive when training. 
That is a generalization based on what I see, and I am not against kenneling for periods of time, but I think a kennel dog is harder to settle than a dog that lives in a home.
Balancing the amount of time the dog is contained where ever it is, is key to having a stable dog. 
Walks are not enough exercise IMO....I'd rather have my dog get exercise thru fetch, training. Mental stimulation is very important. Feeding off the ground to hunt is great mental exercise. I'd do it if I fed kibble.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

For outdoor runs, we use Behlen/Powder River - steel cages. They are made for livestock and can hold any GSD, we had a chain link eating dog and he could not escape our Behlen kennels. 

To the OP - if you are going to have that dog outside a lot in that run, you better go with the best.

Complete Kennel 10' x 10' x 6', Club Kennels - Gray 17141323103


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> am not against kenneling for periods of time, but I think a kennel dog is harder to settle than a dog that lives in a home.


The problem is, he's using a prescription off a website that tells how it's best to keep the dog outside. 
But in real life, dogs aren't one-size-fits-all, and what may work for one situation won't work for another.
If I am not misunderstanding, the OPs goals actually are somewhat different than just titling or working the dog in Sch., if his plans go right, he wants the dogs he acquires and trains to be "examples" of his training and also possibly live with women affected by DV situations. 
I think keeping the dog in solitary "before and after training", and not considering keeping the dog inside with the family is going to be counter-productive to his long-term goals. 
But what do I know? I'm just a rescuer who rehomes 150 dogs per year...


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

@msvette2U: I think you have made YOUR opinion on dogs living outside clear and that is not even what the OP asked about in this thread.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Personally, I wouldn't go with chain link either. It is EASILY destroyed by a bored dog. Many dogs do fine in chain link all of their lives, but I think if you are starting from scratch, you would be better off using something else, "Just in case".


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## TechieDog (Jan 13, 2011)

We have a Tartar Heavy Duty Kennel from Tractor Supply. It is reasonably priced and decent. I recommend it compared to others I've seen.
Heavy-Duty Welded Wire Kennel, 10 ft. W x 10 ft. L x 6 ft. H - 3606740 | Tractor Supply Company

I've used chain link before and it was fine for my other dogs but some dogs will work on them. Use heavy duty chain link and reinforce the connections if you go that route.


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

_You do not think there is any middle ground between "living my life completely outside" and "being stuck in a crate inside 8-10 hrs. a day"? How limited is that notion!_

Where did I say this was a black and white situation with no happy medium? If you had actually read my post you'll see that I find a very happy indoor/outdoor 'middle ground' with my dogs that works with my lifestyle... I always find it interesting to watch the pet people criticize and bash other people for doing something they don't necessarily agree with. 

_Our dogs are indoor pets. We don't make them live outside because there's "too much distractions" inside, and we don't coop them up 8-10hrs. a day. 
I believe there's more cases where dogs live inside as a full-fledged member of the family than of cases where people are gone "at least 8hrs each day" and the dog is crated that entire time._

Right. YOUR dogs are indoor pets and that works for YOU. Nothing wrong with that, but consider the very real possibility that this has no relevance to what works for the OP. Not you, not your family, not your house, and not your dog.

*Who here lets a high drive puppy gearing up for SchH roam their house freely and why?*
I personally don't let my pup run the house unsupervised, regardless of the fact that shes my french ring prospect. She does come inside but only if i'm watching her. She sleeps in her crate at night and spends most of her day in her kennel when i'm just hanging around or doing homework. Somedays I need a break and don't hang with her as much as I probably should, but its a dog and I have my own life to get on with. If I go anywhere, she usually likes tags along for the ride. I do different things with her throughout the day, including a some scent work/ hunt drive building, occasionally some formal obedience, and twice a week some bite work/ flirt pole. Really, I don't get too crazy with it. Shes a pup and i just let her be as she is. She gets to play with my other dogs and get rowdy in our large unfenced yard, but I also live by a lake and bring her swimming pretty regularly. I'm fortunate enough to work for a company that allows me to bring her with me, so she comes to work and hangs out with everyone, and when I get dispatched to a call, she goes into her crate in the car... When i first got her, I was told by my training director that the dog absolutely, positively needs to either be in her kennel or working. Period. Me, I didn't get the dog to ONLY work her, so I do way more with her than advised. So far, im more than happy with her ringsport progress and the working relationship I have with her is better than ever. I have two other 'pet' dogs and with Kai being my first working dog, I was really worried I would somehow ruin her by allowing her to play with the other 'pet' dogs, go all these places with me, and hanging out at work. Honestly, a good dog is a good dog. If nothing else, all the exposure to things and people has made her rock solid. Figure out what works for you and go with it. If something isn't working, ask for advice and change what your doing. Most importantly, always keep it fun.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Cowboy, I am training a pup in ScH(well he's two now) and he is in the home with two other dogs.
> I haven't trialed him yet, it is no rush to me to title and I want him more than ready when we do.
> I don't see it as detrimental because I want a stable social dog that knows manners and can settle in all environments.
> He loves to train, looks forward to it. I crate him after sessions in the crate in the vehicle to 'process' his lesson. I also have crates in the house when I need to contain the dogs, but they are good when unsupervised.
> ...


 
Thank you. This is valuable information to me.

for the last time:

IT"S NOT A KENNEL DOG!!!!!

It will play with my kids, it will be in our house, it will run and frolic in the friggen grass, it will play fetch, it will run 2-5 km's a day with my wife, it will have training sessions, it will be very happy, it will just spend more time outdoors than indoors.

Yes, at the end of it all I do have a long term plan, it's exactly that, a long term plan. Y'all should respect the fact that I am trying to educate myself and not only with a book but with the real thing.
If my plan to help others doesn't happen, I'm fine with that, it's the journey that I look forward to, and the people (most) that I meet along the way.

This has been an experience for me.
I've learned now to be carefull what I post, how it's worded and to whom it specifically addresses. I'll be more carefull next time.
Thanks for sharing your many different opinions.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I think I would rather spend my day outside in a decent sized enclosure where I could lounge in the sun, stretch out, watch life go by and hey, if it rains, even have a nice place to curl up in and get out of the weather, than be jammed into an indoor crate, that I barely fit into, watching the paint dry on the walls for at least 8 hours each day because that's the politically correct thing to do.


You said "I'd rather A than B", without considering there's a C, D, E, F, etc. you get the point, the C, D, E, F, etc., are middle grounds. But you didn't present one of those which is why I said "that view is so limited".

I wanted to add, before this edit window closes, that many of us choose to keep our dogs inside when we're away because it's safer than leaving them outside where they are subject to being stolen (remember Hex from another thread, RIP boy) or poisoned, shot, anything. And just because it's on your own property doesn't make it immune from bullets.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I have some dogs who are kennel dogs. They sleep out in the kennels and may spend much of their day out there. I walk kennel dogs twice a day, sometimes more, and I live on 8 acres, so they get to really run during that time. 

Still I find that they get bored, really bored, and creative in destructive ways, and I really hate that. So I tend to rotate my house dogs out to the kennels for the day and bring a couple of kennel dogs into the house during the day several times a week. Everyone gets house time every week, and they take turns being the "dog of the day" who gets to travel with me on errands (when it's not too hot). 

My retired old girl is never kenneled anymore--she also gets along with everyone just fine--but if the weather is really nice, there are days when I put her and the two Jack Russells into the fenced yard for the whole day. I think the freedom of movement and fresh air and sunlight are very good for them--better than sleeping next to me in my office as I work all day.

I'd rather use an outdoor kennel than an indoor crate if long periods of confinement are needed (at night, say, or if I am rotating dogs during the day). I have 2 males who don't get to run together (father and son) and 3 females who would fight if together, so rotating is a necessity. 

At one point, my yard fence was welded wire like what is used in this kennel. My dogs put holes it in really quickly and very easily--just from hitting it with their feet. You may find that as your dog matures this will become a problem. Woven wire of any sort is stronger. One problem is that once a dog learns to deliberately destroy a kennel (or crate) if you gradually increase the difficulty level (you go from welded wire to woven wire to chain link), you are actually teaching the dog to just keep trying harder and they can get through the fencing. 

At any rate, isolation and boredom are very real issues for any dog, and for a dog who you are actively working with to create a relationship, the isolation can border on the cruel. It's something to be aware of.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

cowboy17 said:


> Thank you. This is valuable information to me.
> 
> for the last time:
> 
> ...


This should say, for the first time, because really up until now you said HE (not IT) will live in the kennel and come out four times a day. Read through your posts and see if people could somehow deduce that he would actually have a life outside the kennel and his 4 walks/day. 



> Y'all should respect the fact that I am trying to educate myself and not only with a book but with the real thing.


Educating yourself would mean at least listening to the advice given by experienced GSD owners, not calling them names and threatening to leave the forum.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This would be my concern as well, primarily that the longer a dog is isolated outside, the more anxious they are to see their owners, and that translates into "hyper dog", or "overly excited".
When you state he'll be inside "when on good behavior", you're liable never to see "good behavior" if only allowed in "occasionally" (your terms).

I've seen so many times dogs tied up and when the owner finally does go out the dog jumps all over him/her, reinforcing the alone time, because the dog is no longer pleasant to interact with. The same is true for kenneled dogs, even if not tied. And as someone else pointed out, he'll be jumping up and down in his own poop, spreading it all over with his feet. This is universal for dogs, as I ran the shelter here for three years and saw this time after time. It's no fun to go get the dog out since he's got poop all over him and is now jumping up due to excitement over seeing you, and placing his paws on you. 

This comes after years of dog ownership, dog rescue and working in shelters, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with this phenomenon, but it is something to keep in mind.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have seen kennel dogs who behave properly in the house.
Their owners bring them in at night and they are crated in the house for sleep but have very restricted in house access (kitchen mud room)

Some on my SAR team are that way; actually about half the dogs live outside all the time, but they get a lot of other interaction. They are housebroken, not wild in the house (if you don't ALLOW wild in the house from day 1.....)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well yeah, you have to train them to be used to the house. But that cannot occur if they aren't in the house for "house" training...yanno?


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## abakerrr (Aug 8, 2008)

Forgot to ask! What are the lines on this pup?


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> Who here keeps their dogs outdoors? I want to hear from you.


While my dogs are technically inside dogs, they do stay outside for a considerable amount of time while we're at work. I work four days per week and have approximately a 40 minute commute to work. That means for an 8 hour work day with an hour lunch, plus the time it takes to drop off and pick up my son from the babysitter, my dogs would be in their crates for 11-12 hours. Unacceptable. Even if I didn't crate them and left them loose in the house, that would still be 11-12 hours of them not being able to go to the bathroom (or deciding to use the house as their bathroom). Again, unacceptable.

We live in the country and have a very large (3 acres) fenced in yard for the dogs but I felt they could get into too much trouble out there (jump/dig under the fence, bark at things all day long, etc). So, we decided to build a smaller kennel enclosure with a dog door so they can get into the (heated) garage. They also have outdoor doghouses, if they prefer.

Here is my setup:

















The dogs stay there while we're at work, etc. but when we're home, they are either inside or running around the larger fenced in yard (whichever they prefer... they ring a bell when they want to go out). They sleep inside in crates in their own room.



> What negative impact have you seen as a result?


I have not seen any negative impact to them being in the outdoor enclosure during the day. On the contrary, before we had the garage heated I kept them crated one day per week while we were at work (my brother used to live with us and was home with them during the day the other days of the week). The dogs would be pretty hyped up when we got home after being crated that long.

My male GSD, Nova, came from a situation where he was kenneled outdoors pretty much 24/7 and didn't get much attention. He was literally crazy when we got him and was on Prozac. This doesn't sound like the type of situation you're planning for your pup, however. 



> Who here lets a high drive puppy gearing up for SchH roam their house freely and why?


I do not train in SchH (I'd love to, but there isn't a local club) but do have some high drive dogs. Apollo cannot be left uncrated/unkennelled because he would eat everything in sight (couches, pillows, etc). Luna could not be left alone because she would terrorize the cats all day. Nova would likely be fine.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I clean kennels twice a day and my dogs are *generally* clean in the kennels--not always. 

Kennel dogs do not _always _have to be stinky and covered with feces. Nor do they have to be crazy when coming out of the kennel. Dogs who are kenneled all the time and aren't walked regularly and never get out of the kennels do....


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks all. The opinions and advice that have been given here help.

** removed by Admin**

Enough of this madness.
The fencing will be changed, the dog will be treated very well, socialized in many different environments and will be a great dog.

I'm sure that my username is branded into some heads now (was not my intent) and feel free to drop in and comment on future posts of mine, I'm sure they will become interesting.

Gunner comes home on Sunday. I'll post pics and if I'm ready for a real flaming, I'll post his pedigree.

Now go take the dogs out of the crates and play a little....lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Without reading anyone's responses, you have a good start. Are you going to have to stoop to clean poop, and to open the top of the dog house. If you live where the weather gets cold, below freezing, the dog house is a little high to keep the dog's heat in, and you might consider dropping the ceiling a bit, and maybe even put a divider inside. Depends on where you are located.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> BTW, the entire kennel is tarped in the winter to further protect from the elements.
> 
> Carm, where in Ontario are you?


It should be tarped in all seasons for shade. The dog house (agree with selzer) is too tall to retain heat.... unless you put a pallet in there in the winter
to get him off the ground and to take up space.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I use sun screens in the hotter months, in the winter I do not use tarps because they can colapse the kennel, if they have a serious snow load or even a bad rain storm. 

I use chain link and it has not failed in 8 or 10 years since I put it up. But it is not cheap 11-13 gage that most dog kennels are made out of. It is 9 gage and much thicker. The gates were specially made with nine gage chain link as well. Works for me.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If I might add one more bit of advice....your kennel will drain off under your porch, where because of the lack of sunlight will cause it to become really...really damp and stinky. Think about a bad bout of the runs. It will happen sooner or later. You rinse the kennel out and all that poopy water sits under your porch. 

Maybe some sort of drainage system to run the access water away from the covered area and into the yard.....


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

PaddyD said:


> It should be tarped in all seasons for shade. The dog house (agree with selzer) is too tall to retain heat.... unless you put a pallet in there in the winter
> to get him off the ground and to take up space.


 
I will put the house itself a little higher.
As well, I will make an insert to shorten the height of the ceiling in order to accomodate the shorter dog. The insert will be insulated 3" foam as well.
I've wondered about what to use for a door....burlap sac seems to me a bad idea, afterall that is what his tug is made from, and we have a sac to play with. Plastic hardens and is chewable.
I've considered tractor tire but not sure how I would hinge in.

Any thoughts on that?

I'm going to put a shingled roof on the whole thing and shingle the house as well. The tarp will only give some shelter from the wind from the sides.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Lilie said:


> If I might add one more bit of advice....your kennel will drain off under your porch, where because of the lack of sunlight will cause it to become really...really damp and stinky. Think about a bad bout of the runs. It will happen sooner or later. You rinse the kennel out and all that poopy water sits under your porch.
> 
> Maybe some sort of drainage system to run the access water away from the covered area and into the yard.....


Missed this post...this is great. I will be laying 2 yards of screening donw on the ground for drainage and stuff, but I think what I will add a drainage system by incorporating eavestroughs in the ground that runout to a location way behind the kennel and down the side of the house where it can be disposed of easily.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You could by a dog door with a solid flap. one of mine is clear so that the dog can see through the plastic, it is insulated and the dogs do not chew it. I think I have a picture:









The reason I suggest the see-through type is that the dog might not want to use the house if is completely closed in. But a flimsy flap, might be chewed and injested by the dog. I would only use the flap after the snow flies, and if the dog sleeps in your home, it is probably totally unnecessary. It gets down to about ten below 0 here, and I put straw in each of my dogs houses, but have no flaps. Dogs come in at night to sleep. But if worst comes to worst, they can sleep in their houses overnight with just straw in them, and no flap. They houses are not huge though and the dog uses his own body heat, straw, and the insulation that snow on top and around gives to keep warm. If I come home at 1:30 and feel my dogs' bellies they are always toasty warm.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The kennel is small. Take care of solid waste, before you put the dog out for the day, and after you feed him breakfast. If you hose it off in the direction you want it to go daily, you will not have tons of slimey goo growing anywhere. A drainage system is fine, may be over kill. When my dogs have a bout of loose stool, I use tree-funk (a misture of tree-leavings -- linchen, leaves, dog hair, urine/rain water, or wood chips to kind of "clump it" So I am picking up the fecal matter, and scrubbing it with the hair/tree leavings, and disposing of that, then I hose the area. So the vast majority of fecal matter is disposed of prior to being drained off.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

Waste cleanup is a daily thing for me.
I hope that most of it happens on his walks and exercise time.

It was suggested that I use pine chips for the bottom instead of straw. Do you see any negatives to this?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just because it is fun, I will show some of the other kennels. 

This is how I use tarps, whether to give shade or to keep bitches from making snotty faces at each other:









The wood box in that kennel is 4x8 foot sheets of treated plywood on two by fours, then built around three sides, about thirty inches off the ground and another 4x8' sheet to roof it. It holds a large cot and a dog house, and provides resting spots off of the concrete.

They do like to sit on top:









It is fenced over with 11 gage wire. I got intact bitches, and you never know what that mangy border collie mix down the street might try...

This was my early design, not too good, because it does not really keep the water out. It is shingled, but that was a waste, for the most part. The girls like it though. Pointing out the horse bucket holder. This ensures that my dog does not spill the water early in the day and go through the heat of the day without water. Since I have begun using these for water, I have never come home to find them without water: 









Joy with the dog door:









Cots can be really a nice touch. They do use them. Edy's ice cream is even more highly appreciated though:


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> I hope that most of it happens on his walks and exercise time.


This may very well be the case. Some dogs treat their enclosures as a sort of a giant crate... a big sleeping area that should not be soiled. My GSD female, Luna, will not defecate in her kennel, and only urinates in there when absolutely necessary, and it's a very large area. My sister-in-law's lab is the same way. 

Of course, since this dog is already used to living outdoors, he might not have any reservations about it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Pine shavings or cedar chips will not keep the dog warm. Cedar chips are awesome for cleaning up yuck and stuff, it is naturally repellent to insects like fleas and flies. And using it for the warm season, is great. But for winter, for warmth, nothing, not even hay is as good as straw. straw insulates even if it gets wet, kind of like wool

Which is another thought. An old wool horse blanket can be used too. 

Unfortunately, a bored dog will generally pull a bed right out of their house, especially if you put it in there before it is good and cold.


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## cowboy17 (Sep 26, 2011)

lmao....my last shep used to do that all the time. Would pull out his blanket and walk around the house with it until he found a more suitable place for it.

I have a contact for straw.
Thanks for the helpful advice.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

cowboy17 said:


> lmao....my last shep used to do that all the time. Would pull out his blanket and walk around the house with it until he found a more suitable place for it.
> 
> I have a contact for straw.
> Thanks for the helpful advice.


I'm curious if your last dog was kept inside, why this one won't be? Is it because he's a "working dog" and not a "pet"? 
And no, not being facetious...just curious of your reasoning for that (after reading the link you posted a few pages back).


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

msvette2u, LEAVE THE POOR GUY ALONE! You are acting like a bully. This is NOT your dog, NOT your decision. 

Selzer keeps her dogs outside a lot and is very knowlegable about the whole thing, and is giving him constructive advice.

This is NOT a debate on whether to keep the dog inside or outside. It is how to *improve the kennel*.

Sheesh!!!!

The OP is obviously going to keep the dog inside and outside, and even if he chooses to keep it outside more, there is nothing you can do about it. So help him make the outside place better and stop these negative posts running off new members.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> msvette2u, LEAVE THE POOR GUY ALONE! You are acting like a bully. This is NOT your dog, NOT your decision.
> 
> Selzer keeps her dogs outside a lot and is very knowlegable about the whole thing, and is giving him constructive advice.
> 
> ...


This is a public forum, you can't control what people choose to respond to in a post. Besides, she is only asking the OP a question that he could choose to respond to or not.

I disagree that there is nothing one can do. I try to speak out against what I see is wrong because I hope to help people see things another way. 
By people speaking out on this forum and other places, people have changed their minds on breeding their dogs, improved their dog's food and living conditions, and prevented people from buying dogs from pet stores and BYBs.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This thread wasn't about making it better even, the OP came on and simply showed off his handiwork which is when people began suggesting things like keeping the dog inside more, and the size/material of the kennel and run. 
And MIKKO is right...when you post things on a public forum you'll get all kinds of responses and if that's a problem, then forums aren't for you.



> It is how to improve the kennel.


Oh, and FYI, I made _plenty_ of suggestions for making the kennel better...scroll back, for gosh sake (even though this thread was not about that in the 1st place).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> I disagree that there is nothing one can do. I try to speak out against what I see is wrong because I hope to help people see things another way.
> By people speaking out on this forum and other places, people have changed their minds on breeding their dogs, improved their dog's food and living conditions, and prevented people from buying dogs from pet stores and BYBs.


Excellent point


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> This is how I use tarps, whether to give shade or to keep bitches from making snotty faces at each other


 I burst out laughing when I read this, thanks Selzer!
Cowboy, I hope you stick around, this site is great for learning....the other forums are informative as well, so don't let this one thread taint your opinion. I am on a few forums and this one is pretty nice considering.


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I'm curious if your last dog was kept inside, why this one won't be? Is it because he's a "working dog" and not a "pet"?
> And no, not being facetious...just curious of your reasoning for that (after reading the link you posted a few pages back).


The OP has stated that this dog will be allowed in the house, but simply will not be SLEEPING in the house.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cowboy17 said:


> It holds 5 kids in the doghouse qquite nicely, they are all out there eathing turkey right now.


Best use for a doghouse I've heard of in a long time. Leave them out there for several days, it'll probably toughen them up and make them more obedient.










I must admit you had me worried. There for a minute I thought you were going to put a German Shepherd in there!


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Sorry, over reacted. You're right, I can't control what everyone else says. I just feel like this guy could really use our guidance and he is getting very upset about the 'sleeping outside' thing. Perhaps you could send him a personal message so he doesn't feel attacked, and he will reconsider the dog sleeping inside 

((By the way--I dont believe in dogs staying outside a lot, unless it is someone with selzers awesome set up. But this guy seems to be trying to make the outside thing nice, and he said he will keep the puppy inside a lot too.))


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

carmspack said:


> Here is my problem with the design , where is the dog going to do its business. The house (nice!) is at the back . That means that it will defecate near the gate . When you are going to see the dog , attend to the kennel hygiene , you are going to have the dog greeting you , jumping up , hitting the gate to get your attention and flicking poop at you .
> I had one dog who came from a kennel and I was warned about its habit poop stomper. No matter how large the kennel its habit was always to poop near the front and then kennel run , pace , smooshing it .


I see this playing out slightly different.  See that little cute blonde in the doorway of the kennel house? She is going to WANT to see that puppy. So out goes blondie, slogging through the dog poop to play with the puppy. Mom yells for Blondie to come in for lunch. Dog poop gets slogged through the house. Is there any kid who HASN"T done that? :rofl:


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> I see this playing out slightly different.  See that little cute blonde in the doorway of the kennel house? She is going to WANT to see that puppy. So out goes blondie, slogging through the dog poop to play with the puppy. Mom yells for Blondie to come in for lunch. Dog poop gets slogged through the house. Is there any kid who HASN"T done that? :rofl:


Is there an adult who hasn't done that? ......what? Was it just me?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Best use for a doghouse I've heard of in a long time. Leave them out there for several days, it'll probably toughen them up and make them more obedient.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



:rofl:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Nope Lilie! Two guys in our office have done that! Our parking lot gets used as the neighborhood crapping ground. One poor guy tracked it all the way through the office before realizing it! :rofl:


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

All this crap about outside dogs drives me up a wall. 

The GSD was started from sheep dogs. Guess where you will find sheep dogs? Do they now raise sheep in houses? Where do most of the breeders that we purchase our GSD's from keep all there dogs. 
Does anyone believe that say Robin, or Carmen or Lee keep all there dogs in the house? Maybe rotate them a couple at a time but come on. Where do military dogs sleep while on active duty.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Where do military dogs sleep while on active duty.


With their handlers?? 

Don't many of us average joes get the dogs to "protect"?? How does a dog protect if it's cooped up in a kennel?? 
The OP in this situation wants the dog to ultimately become a protection type dog, and I can't see how that'll happen if it sleeps outside in a kennel...but maybe this dog has a key or opposable thumbs to let itself out in the case of a threat :dunno:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It is more about where the dogs want to be...with their pack, not isolated by themselves. I'd much rather see a few dogs in runs(separated if needed) than one out all by himself. A single dog or horse hates to be left alone. Horses do much better when they have company because they are herd animals....dogs are pack animals... birds are flockers.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> All this crap about outside dogs drives me up a wall.
> 
> The GSD was started from sheep dogs. Guess where you will find sheep dogs? .


In a wood and wire box with concrete floors?

I don't understand this concept of keeping a dog in a box, taking it out to play with it, and putting it back in the box when you're done. Whether that box is in the bedroom or the back yard.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Horses actually can get very territorial when left alone. Ours will chase everything out of HIS pasture. Cats, dogs. Thankfully, he didn't see the 3 deer in his fence before they left. Dogs can also be the same way if left without companionship and guidance.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Jack's Dad said:


> The GSD was started from sheep dogs. Guess where you will find sheep dogs? Do they now raise sheep in houses?


But in those days, the *people* were also outdoors all day, every day, working alongside the dog. Not so today.

It's not about inside vs outside. It's about having a high degree of involvement in the everyday lives of the people, and being along side them, versus being isolated except when the weather is nice and the humans feel like leaving the house and giving the dog some attention.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It has always been my understanding that dogs (and GSDs in particular) are much more protective of their "pack" when actually allowed to be a full member of that pack.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> But in those days, the *people* were also outdoors all day, every day, working alongside the dog. Not so today.
> 
> It's not about inside vs outside. It's about having a high degree of involvement in the everyday lives of the people, and being along side them, versus being isolated except when the weather is nice and the humans feel like leaving the house and giving the dog some attention.


Heh...was just posting that...and like you said, today, most interaction takes place in the house, not outside of it, especially on days like today when the wind's blowing 40+mph!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> With their handlers??
> 
> Don't many of us average joes get the dogs to "protect"?? How does a dog protect if it's cooped up in a kennel??
> The OP in this situation wants the dog to ultimately become a protection type dog, and I can't see how that'll happen if it sleeps outside in a kennel...but maybe this dog has a key or opposable thumbs to let itself out in the case of a threat :dunno:


As soon as someone mentions outside dogs people like yourself assume they mean to purchase a dog, throw it in the yard or kennel and forget it. That assumption is very often incorrect.

I've owned dogs for 50+ years. When I was at work they were in their yard or kennel with shelter. When I came home they were part of the family. All but one slept in the house. We did all the normal activities anyone else does with their pet dogs. The only difference between my dog and apparently some of yours is that mine spent the day in a kennel or yard instead of a crate. So my dog was in the house at night to alert me.

Regarding smart remark about military dogs cuddling with their handlers. They and their handlers were probably outside in all manner of weather conditions. Same with police dogs. Or maybe they only work in fair weather.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The only difference between my dog and apparently some of yours is that mine spent the day in a kennel or yard instead of a crate. So my dog was in the house at night to alert me.


Who said "cuddling" with their handlers???

I have no idea why you're being so snotty to me, but I never said "cuddling", read your own post because at the top of it is _my own quote_ where I said_ "WITH THEIR HANDLERS??"_

As to the rest, please explain what you mean by "apparently some of yours", because you have no idea how I keep any of my own 10 dogs or the foster dogs we routinely take in. Or, I should rephrase that and say instead, "what's your assumption about how my dogs are kept??"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> throw it in the yard or kennel and forget it. That assumption is very often incorrect.


Oh, and as an ACO who saw more than their fair share of dogs left outside their entire lives, yes I do make that assumption until people clear it up...such as this OP did, but only pages later after people asked about the potential level of interaction between he and his dog.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Free to good home: 10 month old male German Shepherd. Not neutered. 75% housebroken. Started on personal protection training. Gunner is a good dog but I am afraid I have to re-home him as he is too rough with my 5 kids. I let him into the house yesterday and he knocked over my youngest, made her cry, and then nipped her. I just can't have a dog I can't trust around my kids. Come get this dog before I take him to the shelter. 



. . . . happens all the time. ALL. THE. TIME.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

My wife has worked many years with abused women and children.
Thank heavens she doesn't see every other woman in the world thru that set of eyes. 

I know this will get me in trouble but some rescue people see all dogs as victims if their owners don't live up to rescuer's views on how animals should be housed, crated, fed, exercised, time with family etc.. 

Sorry off topic.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> Free to good home: 10 month old male German Shepherd. Not neutered. 75% housebroken. Started on personal protection training. Gunner is a good dog but I am afraid I have to re-home him as he is too rough with my 5 kids. I let him into the house yesterday and he knocked over my youngest, made her cry, and then nipped her. I just can't have a dog I can't trust around my kids. Come get this dog before I take him to the shelter.
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . happens all the time. ALL. THE. TIME.


Exactly...Jack's...it's because I see FAR too much of this and are called to "come get this dog" all the freaking time. 
Or we simply get it once it's dumped.
You do realize we have 6 purebred GSDs (if we count our own we adopted that's 7) in rescue right at this very moment, whose owners discarded them due to poor care and socialization and in Yasmine's case, she was ran over by a car and never treated - _at all_ - and now we're cleaning up that mess too?? And that's not mentioning the two GSD mixes we've had over this past week. 

When/if you ever delve into the shelter and rescue world you'll get those same goggles I'm sure 

And as for the indoor/outdoor thing, it's as one mentioned earlier, it matters not where they sleep (except if you truly want some protection, in which case you'd need your dog sleeping where you _sleep_) what matters is the level of interaction with the living breathing animal itself.

**when you save a dog from the very worst life has to offer, is it so wrong to want the very best you can find for that pet??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think the ad will run differently....

$10,000 10 month old male German Shepherd. Not neutered. 75% housebroken. Started on personal protection training. Gunner is a good dog have trained him to be protector of 5 kids and wife. Will protect his kennel, back yard and his home. He just needs to bond with his new handler. I am a professional dog trainer and know what I'm doing....


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Free to good home: 10 month old male German Shepherd. Not neutered. 75% housebroken. Started on personal protection training. Gunner is a good dog but I am afraid I have to re-home him as he is too rough with my 5 kids. I let him into the house yesterday and he knocked over my youngest, made her cry, and then nipped her. I just can't have a dog I can't trust around my kids. Come get this dog before I take him to the shelter.
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . happens all the time. ALL. THE. TIME.



That's why shelters and rescues are overflowing all the time. 
That however is an education problem not whether a dog is inside or outside. Crated or uncrated kenneled or not.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

*shrug* I dunno, maybe Canadians are classier people. Maybe they spend every waking moment of their free time outside witht their dogs. Maybe the whole family bundles up and troops outside to spend a nice relaxing day with the outside dog. I don't really know, I've never been there. From what I've seen, the vast majority of outside dogs spend their days being ignored because they stink and have bad manners.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The problem began because of the statement on page 1 of this doomed thread that said "dog will be primarily outside and inside occasionally" 
What does that mean?? Occasionally means once a month? twice a month?? Only on "good behavior"?? What does that mean? 
In most of our "mind's eyes" we can see a bratty 5mos. old Shep come inside, immediately pee on the rug, rip up a shoe, knock over one of the kids, etc. and get booted back outside. 
Really, the OP could have been more specific, it was only after 4-5 pages they stated occasionally actually meant _daily!_ 
And if they're home all day to give "4-5 walks per day", why leave the dog outside "primarily" (again, the OPs words).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> That's why shelters and rescues are overflowing all the time.
> That however is an education problem not whether a dog is inside or outside. Crated or uncrated kenneled or not.


That is a dog who lives outside except an "occasional" trip inside and didn't learn house manners as a result.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> I've owned dogs for 50+ years. When I was at work they were in their yard or kennel with shelter. When I came home they were part of the family. All but one slept in the house. We did all the normal activities anyone else does with their pet dogs. The only difference between my dog and apparently some of yours is that mine spent the day in a kennel or yard instead of a crate. So my dog was in the house at night to alert me.


But your scenario is not at all what the OP describes. The title of the thread is "Outdoor *Living *Area". When questioned as to whether or not the dog would be living in the pictured kennel setup he replied "_He will live outside for the majority of the year but will be inside occasionally_" (I corrected the spelling, but the words are his). Occasional doesn't sound very often, and without any details as to what he meant by that, is it any surprise how people reacted, especially when he said the puppy could come in "on good behavior"? Maybe he doesn't realize that a puppy isn't too likely to be on good behavior in the house when he spends most of his time outdoors. 

Your dogs did not live outside, Jack's Dad, they were simply confined outdoors vs indoors when you weren't home. Mine are the same, except that they have indoor and outdoor space, they're in a 6 x 8 ft chain link pen in the garage with a dog door to an outside run, because I prefer not to leave them in a crate all day. They don't "live" out there, though.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> But your scenario is not at all what the OP describes. The title of the thread is "Outdoor *Living *Area". When questioned as to whether or not the dog would be living in the pictured kennel setup he replied "_He will live outside for the majority of the year but will be inside occasionally_" (I corrected the spelling, but the words are his). Occasional doesn't sound very often, and without any details as to what he meant by that, is it any surprise how people reacted, especially when he said the puppy could come in "on good behavior"? Maybe he doesn't realize that a puppy isn't too likely to be on good behavior in the house when he spends most of his time outdoors.
> 
> Your dogs did not live outside, Jack's Dad, they were simply confined outdoors vs indoors when you weren't home. Mine are the same, except that they have indoor and outdoor space, they're in a 6 x 8 ft chain link pen in the garage with a dog door to an outside run, because I prefer not to leave them in a crate all day. They don't "live" out there, though.


I agree with what you said. 

It just seems to me on a number of threads, if outside is mentioned all **** breaks loose.

Maybe this should be the first question.

What do you mean in terms of time being spent outside?

Because you are right, my dogs and others I know don't live outside.

That is where they are when no one is home.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

If the dog in question (at my home) is an escaper, if it's a foster or one of my own, I do not leave it outside.
I do use crates but we're not gone in excess of 5-6hrs. at a time, and not on a daily basis. I guess you could say..."occasionally" 

When we leave the house (or even if we're home) the safety of our dogs is uppermost in our minds as to where they stay, if some can be outside and it's not a blizzard or pouring rain outside, then we have left them in our fenced yard. 
But some just can't and won't be "good" outside and get crated as a result. 
My Queen "B" lives inside and would be horrified at the thought of staying outside while we're gone. 
It really depends on the dog, and the amount of time we're gone, the weather outside, etc.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> It just seems to me on a number of threads, if outside is mentioned all **** breaks loose.


 
Putting most of the other statements regarding how long the dog would be outside, how long he'd be alone, etc., I couldn't agree with you more on this. As stated by you, a number of threads - not all threads. I am sometimes afraid to mention that my dog is outside for medium-long periods of time, too (cannot give an exact time estimate for all of you, as the time varies greatly from fifteen minutes to three hours), because I might get attacked for just that reason.

Not everyone does it, and it's not on every thread that mentions a dog being outside - but I've noticed it a lot lately. It could be bleed through from recent events with dogs being stolen, killed, etc. or it could just be people's strong opinions on their own living situations/dog situations - but it makes me feel like a bad person and bad dog owner, so I usually just keep my mouth shut about my dog being outside a lot.

Sorry, that didn't have much to do with the original post or the questions asked. I apologize for temporarily hijacking the thread. I just had to put that out there and feel that someone was on my side and that I wasn't a bad person or bad dog owner.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> *shrug* I dunno, maybe Canadians are classier people. Maybe they spend every waking moment of their free time outside witht their dogs. Maybe the whole family bundles up and troops outside to spend a nice relaxing day with the outside dog. I don't really know, I've never been there. From what I've seen, the vast majority of outside dogs spend their days being ignored because they stink and have bad manners.


Emoore:

Do you think that most breeders dogs are like that.

I don't see how they could possibly keep all their breeding dogs inside.

Unless all they do for a living is breed dogs, (rare) they don't have time to work or walk each one everday either. Yet most of the ones I have seen are well behaved and not overly stinky. 

If the OP throws his puppy out back and ignores it then that's a whole different thing.

I think that he was wanting feedback on his kennel and it quickly turned into if he was qualified to own a dog, my observation. He got a lot more than what people thought of his kennel.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree Andy....he should have known. Posting on the PDB or WDF would have gotten him answers that he agree'd with. Though the suggestions on his kennel were worthy to be sure. 
I asked a similar question a few years ago before I built one/which surface would be best for flooring/etc....never did get one built. 
We just live with the bare patches in the back yard, the dogs are crated if needed to be contained. I'd still like a dog run/ just to grow some grass in the areas they've ruined. Kind of like rotating pastures.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Maybe it's not as much where it's kept as much as what you'll do with it when you finally see it again.



> If the OP throws his puppy out back and ignores it then that's a whole different thing.


What bothered me almost immediately was the expectation the dog could only come in if "on good behavior". But no mention of how it would accomplish that "good behavior".

What we see all too often is that someone acquires a dog or puppy and when it displays "bad" behavior, it's put outside. Or if it sheds (the OP mentioned excessive dog fur which all GSDs are known for!), out the door it goes. 
The problem is that putting the dog outside as a bandaid for "bad behavior" (or socially unacceptable behavior) is not going to help the "bad behavior"!
The only way to changing it into good behavior is to work on it, not put it outside more.
Early in our rescuing days we adopted out a little dog, no more than 15lbs., and she jumped up on the kids and scratched them in her enthusiasm. In return she was relegated to being an outside dog as a "fix" for her happiness at seeing people.
She learned nothing except to miss her people even more, and became even worse at jumping up when they'd finally come see her, or just go outside.
She was returned in about 2 weeks. For being a dog...
And if allowed to just "be a dog", dogs can and do display what some would call "bad behavior" like jumping up, because _that's what dogs do_.
Those kinds of things just break my heart because it's not the dog's fault he or she was not taught how to be "on good behavior"...


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I do understand. 

A couple of things though.

Most people who don't care about their dogs and just want something to throw out back won't come on forums about dogs.

The second thing is people who will do the things you have suggested are not likely to be swayed by forum comments, even if they somehow did arive here.

Dogs are left outside or chained up with little human interaction all over the world everyday. Sad but true.

I think when someone is new it's better to question gentily and with kindness than to hit them over the head with a hammer.

When they have been around awhile then they can suffer the insults like the rest of us.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Because you are right, my dogs and others I know don't live outside.
> 
> That is where they are when no one is home.


And that is a horse of a _totally_ different color.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jack's Dad said:


> Emoore:
> 
> Do you think that most breeders dogs are like that.
> 
> I don't see how they could possibly keep all their breeding dogs inside.


Unfortunately, many of the ones I have seen are. If they have more than 5 or 6 dogs, they do spend a great deal of time in the kennel runs without a whole lot of human interactions. The good breeders take their dogs out daily for exercise and training and maybe rotate them through the house, but I really don't think you can have 8 or 10 dogs and have them all be part of the family. 

There are many breeders on this forum that I respect a great deal from their posts and reputations, but I have not been to their facility. I don't pretend to know what they do. But from my tour of breeders here in Texas-- well-respected, highly though of breeders-- I saw a lot of bored dogs in kennel runs that didn't seem to have much of a personal relationship with their owners. 

And *that* is a subject for a whole 'nother thread.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> I do understand.
> 
> A couple of things though.
> 
> ...


But this person came on stating, "this is how things are", and even with a website to back up their position. 

Had he come with "hey, this is what I'm planning to do, what do you think", of course we'd have been more gentle or kind. 
But again, look @ the title of the thread. They weren't looking for advice, and that's where everyone's hackles went up...
Also...just a thought, but they had problems in their intro as well and have carried a 'tude since getting on here, asked repeatedly (by others) to show their dog's pedigree but stating things like "only if they feel like getting flamed will I show the pedigree".


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whether the dog is inside all alone or outside all alone the dog will be miserable. Dogs are not made to spend endless hours all alone. I think Onyx said it well when she said it would be better to see a few dogs in kennels than just one alone. 

If we are dooming this puppy to be alone in a back yard 22 hours a day, it is just as bad as leaving the dog crated in the house 22 hours a day, except that the outdoor dog can drink and potty. 

I do not think that the problem is where the puppy spends its off time, or even where the dog sleeps. I think the perceived problem is that the owner may be thinking that because the dog has room to move around, he will not need to provide the dog with as much interaction as an indoor dog might have. 

There are no short cuts, not really. 

With more than one dog, my dogs do not feel isolated in their kennels. Because they are not alone. But that does not mean that that is all they do. The first two years are the biggies for my dogs. For example Joy, From four months to sixteen months, one year, she went through two sets of puppy classes, two sets of basic, CGC, advanced obedience, agility classes, and conformation classes; went to dog shows for her CGC and RN; went to the vet just to be weighed and get treats, went to the pets store to be groomed by other people, several play dates with litter mates, to my mothers (she pees when she sees my mother), to my sister's, up town, to festivals -- basically anywhere an indoor dog might have gone. But she is generally outside. She is house trained though. She is well-mannered. When I take her to see her litter brother, we have dinner inside with the dogs next to us. She doe not have any problem with that, nor does she beg from me. 

But you're right Andy, most people who have a number of dogs, intact dogs, do not have them running around loose all over the place all the time. Joy is a sweet heart, and I love her to death. I prefer to leave her kenneled when I cannot be right with her because it is the safest place she can be. 

Joy would be beside herself if she was out there all alone for hours on end. 

They say when you raise pigs for meat, you never raise just one, because they do not do well by themselves.

If you have a horse, and cannot afford two, people suggest getting a goat, as a stable mate for your horse. 

So the question is, is it better to suggest that someone get two puppies so that one won't be lonely? God Forbid. But you have to figure that if you are going to have a dog and it will be outside primarily, you will need to spend just as much TIME with it as you would spend with an indoor dog. Typical Schedule:

6:00AM, Wake up and go out and feed the dog clean the dog's poop area, replenish the water, 
6:10 AM Go in and get a cup of coffee, have breakfast, read the paper/watch the news, get walking clothes on.
6:45AM, Take dog for a walk do a little training. 
7:15AM, Finish walk and spend 15 minutes throwing the ball and PLAYING with the puppy. Kennel the pup for the day. 
7:30AM get ready for work, work 9-5, get home 5:30 - 6:00PM
6:00PM, feed puppy in kennel. Clean the daily offerings.
6:30 PM, take pup for a walk do some training or take the dog to class, 
7:00 PLAY with the puppy, good aerobic workout. 
7:15 PM bring the puppy inside, tether puppy to yourself, keep full track of the puppy, letting him out often. watch TV with the puppy. Puppy stays with you until bed time, 11 - 12 pm kennel the dog for the night. 

I prefer to let a puppy sleep in the bedroom, crated until I feel confident that they can be loose in the bedroom. I feel that even if you are sleeping in the room, it is quality time. But some people put a puppy in a laundry room or kitchen. There is no difference if the puppy is crated in the living room, laundry room, basement, garage, or outside kennel. If you would crate the dog downstairs in the kitchen while you sleep upstairs, then it makes no difference, kitchen or outside kennel. The time is the same. If the puppy is given a goodly amount of training, exercise and worn out during the day, it will not matter where he sleeps. But I would have them in with me than all alone. Puppies are not solitary creatures. They love to pile up to sleep, and it is hard on them to pull them from a litter and isolate them in a laundry room or outdoor kennel for hours. If you are not there, it makes no difference which place the puppy is. It is easier on the pup if there is a cat or an an older dog around, but many people have single dogs and make it work.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cowboy17 said:


> Spent 3 days and built this living area for Gunner, who comes to his new home in a week. :wild:
> About $350 in materials, but the pavers I got on Kijiiji, and I had 10pcs 2x4 laying around for other projects.
> 
> The house is built with 2x4 frame, 1/2" ply and 3" styrofoam (R12).
> ...


msevette2u


This is the original post for this thread .

Are we talking about the same thing?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Gunner is 5 months old and will arrive in a week.
> *He will live outside for the majority of they year* but *will be inside occaionslly and when on good behaviour.*
> 
> The bottom is a little high, my miscalculation, but I'lll be thorwing some 2 x 4's in there tomorrow just in case.
> ...


This.
Or do you mean his original intro thread? His original intro thread had some problems and I forget what now but he got very defensive very quickly.
OH I remember - it was that he was supposedly buying a showline dog to do Sch with and people told him he'd do better with a Sch line if that's what he wanted to do.

***Did anyone read the training link the OP posted? Because it was quite interesting, to say the least. It reminded me of very "old school" type training the GSD dog, very strict guidelines and it was suggested to isolate the dog before and after Sch training so it could "absorb" what it had learned. Also it was recommended to keep the dog outside in the cold to make it "more tough". Like keeping it at 72 (average home temp) will make it "soft"??



> Puppies are not solitary creatures. They love to pile up to sleep, and it is hard on them to pull them from a litter and isolate them in a laundry room or outdoor kennel for hours.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Op, I just read through the first page and all I can say it  You should consider bringing your dog into the house and really making him a part of your family. An intelligent dog like that should not be condemned to a life outside. And a puppy at that-poor baby!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> This.
> Or do you mean his original intro thread? His original intro thread had some problems and I forget what now but he got very defensive very quickly.
> OH I remember - it was that he was supposedly buying a showline dog to do Sch with and people told him he'd do better with a Sch line if that's what he wanted to do.



I didn't see any of this. I have been responding only to this thread. I don't know where you got that unless I missed it somewhere.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Even with that schedule, the pup might become a disruptive barker, chew dangerously on anything it can find, chew on itself. It is a lot of hours to be all by itself. A dog inside a crate all alone barking up a storm might not be disturbing to the neighbors, where an outdoor dog can be. 

But you should be able to get the dog used to being kenneled outside as easily as crated inside, because we have to work. There is really no way around it. Having an outdoor kennel is great if you have visitors who are afraid of dogs, need to wash the floor, have the carpet cleaners in, have the lawn treated. I mean it is not a waste. But having a single puppy all alone for lots of hours in the back yard, can be a problem, it depends on the pup and how you go about it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jack's Dad said:


> I didn't see any of this. I have been responding only to this thread. I don't know where you got that unless I missed it somewhere.


It's his intro thread. You have to click on his name (in this thread for instance) and click on "find more posts by".


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> Op, I just read through the first page and all I can say it  You should consider bringing your dog into the house and really making him a part of your family. An intelligent dog like that should not be condemned to a life outside. And a puppy at that-poor baby!



That horse has already left the gate...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> Also it was recommended to keep the dog outside in the cold to make it "more tough". Like keeping it at 72 (average home temp) will make it "soft"??


Well it is fact that you want a working dog acclimatized to the temperature at which it will work. They will grow coat and lay down or shed body fat to be comfortable in the working climate. Having a working SAR dog, I hate putting him outside all day in the summer and keeping my thermostat around 78 but it is best for him and any K9 handler or SAR person will not argue against that particular point. Winters here are temperate enough cold is not an issue.

I don't agree with all the OP said and believe his statements on k9 isolation should be built more on experience than articles, but have seen enough very happy working dogs who live outside to know it is not the end of the world for them. It has to do with the amount of interaction the dog gets with its human. I am not a believer in deprivation of human contact to build drive and think if that is the cost of a top notch competition dog it is not worth it. JMO.

I really think the best situation for an outside dog is outside during work, inside with the family at night. Not much different than most pets laying around the house with nothing to do all day. 

But the statements that the dog will wind up bored and at the pound are, I think, over the top.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it makes sense to leave a dog outside in the elements for extended periods of time if they are expected to work in the elements. The inside of a police car is pretty warm, maybe too warm for a fully coated GSD, but they must adapt. But if that dog has to track a lost child in snow or a bad guy, he has to have the proper type of coat to handle that. 

So I can see a police dog sleeping outside in a kennel. I think that would be preferred actually. A police officer would have their dogs with them 8-10 hours while on duty. when they get home, I could see the dog being fed in his kennel. And after an hour I the dog being brought inside for a few hours with the family until bed time, and then put it out in the kennel for sleeping. So long as the dog would have a suitable house, that should not be a problem. The dog would have more actual interaction with its owners than most dogs and yet sleep outside.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I am not a believer in deprivation of human contact to build drive and think if that is the cost of a top notch competition dog it is not worth it. JMO.


That was the gist of some of the article the OP posted. That the dog would only want to work for the guy if he didn't "coddle" it and "make it a pet".


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> That horse has already left the gate...


Oh-he ran off huh? Well, thanks for letting me know. I guess I am a day late and a dollar short.:laugh:


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I skimmed through this thread and all I can say is there is no way I could imagine having my two outdoors all the time. They are in a covered kennel during the say when I am at work. As soon as I get home, I let them out and love on them, play with them snuggle with them feed them and when I go to bed at night, they are in the house with me. I couldn't and wouldn't have it any other way. We do Lot of different things together in my free time ....my dogs are my world!! Hope the OP changes his mind and has his pup indoors with him, especially since winter is fast approaching!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think it makes sense to leave a dog outside in the elements for extended periods of time if they are expected to work in the elements. The inside of a police car is pretty warm, maybe too warm for a fully coated GSD, but they must adapt. But if that dog has to track a lost child in snow or a bad guy, he has to have the proper type of coat to handle that.
> 
> *So I can see a police dog sleeping outside in a kennel. * I think that would be preferred actually. A police officer would have their dogs with them 8-10 hours while on duty. when they get home, I could see the dog being fed in his kennel. And after an hour I the dog being brought inside for a few hours with the family until bed time, and then put it out in the kennel for sleeping. So long as the dog would have a suitable house, that should not be a problem. The dog would have more actual interaction with its owners than most dogs and yet sleep outside.


huh? A police dog lives a block away from me and he is kept indoors at night. And my daughters girl scout troop leader has a police dog that lives right next door and he is also kept indoors. Of course in Ohio, it can get darn cold in the winter, so if they left the dogs outside they could freeze, but anyhow they are kept indoors year round.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Okay, as if this thread could get any more off topic...I always thought a dog's coat had as much to do with daylight triggers as much as temperatures? I mean I could see temperatures (really hot) making them blow coat but inasmuch as mine are housepets, they still grow and blow coat like the dickens. 
So it's not just temperatures that do it...right??


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

selzer said:


> Whether the dog is inside all alone or outside all alone the dog will be miserable. Dogs are not made to spend endless hours all alone. I think Onyx said it well when she said it would be better to see a few dogs in kennels than just one alone.
> 
> If we are dooming this puppy to be alone in a back yard 22 hours a day, it is just as bad as leaving the dog crated in the house 22 hours a day, except that the outdoor dog can drink and potty.
> 
> ...


I really like this post. I choose to have Sasha inside with me, and will probably have all dogs that I have in the future inside with me barring some unforeseeable problem with that. That being said, I don't have a problem with people who keep their dogs outside. I'm sure Selzer's dogs feel just as loved if not more so than a lot of people's inside dogs. I haven't read through this whole thread. I read some of it and found most people to be very condescending, and just didn't care to read all of that. I don't know this person either, and maybe he won't be a good owner, maybe he will, but I don't think what will determine that will be whether or not his dog sleeps outside or spends his time outside while this person is at work. What will determine that will be whether he puts in the time with the dog when he is home. Heck if I had a nice big fenced off area, that Sasha couldn't escape from, to put her in outside while I was gone I would much rather do that than leave her inside. She loves to be outside. When I'm doing home work I put her on the long line and just let her watch all the happenings outside, and just overall enjoy the weather. PEOPLE find houses to be ideal. I really don't think dogs care. And as far as the where the dog is at night...the dog will be asleep whether he's in the house or not. I don't think it's the end of the world if this guy wants to keep his pup outside as long as he has adequate water and shelter, and is with his human when he comes home.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Here is another reason to keep your dog close: Our dogs are valuable!!!!!
http://cartersville.patch.com/articles/police-k9-stolen-from-kennel
The K9 officer who last week rallied the community in support of a police dog injured in the line of duty is asking again for our help.

This time, the cause is closer to home. Cartersville resident, former Bartow County Sheriff’s Office drug interdiction deputy and current Doraville Police Department K9 Officer Chris Day believes a police dog residing at his home has been stolen.

Riki, a 5-year-old male German Shepherd, disappeared from the area of Center and Smiley Ingram roads probably sometime between 2 and 6 a.m. Tuesday, Day said. The police dog set to be trained to sniff out drugs most likely could not have opened the kennel’s locking mechanism.

“We searched all day, talked to people, and haven’t found him,” Day said late Tuesday, adding another area resident reported previous thefts of two German Shepherds. “He’s not aggressive toward people at all. He would jump in the car with you if you found him on the side of the road.

“We’re hoping that’s what someone will do—just drop him off and we’ll get him.”

Day said the apparent theft has been reported to local law enforcement authorities. Anyone with information on Riki should call Cartersville-Bartow County Crime Stoppers anonymously at 770-606-8477 or sheriff's officials at 770-382-5050


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> huh? A police dog lives a block away from me and he is kept indoors at night. And my daughters girl scout troop leader has a police dog that lives right next door and he is also kept indoors. Of course in Ohio, it can get darn cold in the winter, so if they left the dogs outside they could freeze, but anyhow they are kept indoors year round.


I am in Ohio, the north most east county in Ohio and yes it gets cold. No the dog will not freeze if they have a properly sized dog house with some straw in it, and if they are fed properly. 

In mid January -- COLD, the neighbors bitch had four puppies, outside, in an igloo dog house. They never took her or the pups inside. All four survived, well until they were several months old and slaughetered in the road. She was chained the pups were not. The pups were about 4 weeks old when the dog house was blown over the edge of the ravine. They were not home, so I went down there and got in trouble, with the mud sliding me into the frozen river. Ick! 

Anyhow, I held onto a tree until the Amish neighbor down the road heard me hollering -- it was hours, he was working in his timber and brought a rope. 

Anyhow, it takes quite a bit to kill a dog if they have a good coat and a proper layer of fat.

So it is not all temperature no, but the temperature will cause an outdoor dog to eat more to keep warm, calories, calories.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am in Ohio, the north most east county in Ohio and yes it gets cold. No the dog will not freeze if they have a properly sized dog house with some straw in it, and if they are fed properly.
> 
> In mid January -- COLD, the neighbors bitch had four puppies, outside, in an igloo dog house. They never took her or the pups inside. All four survived, well until they were several months old and slaughetered in the road. She was chained the pups were not. The pups were about 4 weeks old when the dog house was blown over the edge of the ravine. They were not home, so I went down there and got in trouble, with the mud sliding me into the frozen river. Ick!
> 
> ...


I know a guy who left his dogs in his garage on a cold winter night, the next morning both of them had frozen to death! Guess that made me a bit paranoid about people not bringing the dogs inside for the night at least.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I know a guy who put left his dogs in his garage on a cold winter night, the next morning both of them had frozen to death! Guess that made me a bit paranoid about people not bringing the dogs inside for the night at least.


Yeah, we've had dogs here die in the heat. People too.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

We kept our golden outside year round (except once he got to be pretty old) and the colder it got, the happier he seemed to be, and I don't think he had near the coat on him that Sasha does. He had a dog run that was tarped on the sides and the top to block the wind/sun, and in the winter he had straw along with his dog house. We tried insulation inside the dog house once...needless to say he pooped pink for a little while, so from then on it was straw. He did just fine and never acted like he was even remotely cold, and it gets darn cold here in Iowa.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Germanshepherdlova said:


> I know a guy who left his dogs in his garage on a cold winter night, the next morning both of them had frozen to death! Guess that made me a bit paranoid about people not bringing the dogs inside for the night at least.


In an unheated garage, the dog had no way to contain their body heat. That is why this dog house being so high, makes me cringe. Americans in particular seem to have the idea that bigger is better. A dog can dig down into snow. Snow is a great insulator, and curl up and use their own body heat to keep them warm. But in a garage, there is no wind, but there is no way for the dog to utilize the heat they generate. So they froze to death. If he had dog houses in the garage, they would be alive today. 

If he had them outside in properly sized dog houses, they would be alive. The dog does not NEED to stretch out and stand up with his head not hitting the top of the dog house. The dog needs to be able to curl up in there and sleep. Bigger is NOT better. That is why I keep saying properly-sized.


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

I know he isnt responding anymore but--
I never could understand why someone would get a dog and keep them outdoors. Why would you have a pet you dont want to spend as much time as possible with? As for his reasoning (its cleaner inside if the dog is outside): Then maybe you shouldn't have pets. Pets make a mess. German Shepherds especially make messes. The amount of hair I am looking at is APPALLING! (our vacuum is broken.) However, even if I never got my vacuum fixed (I am dont worry) I would never put my dogs outside because there was too much hair. My neighbor has a dog in a TINY enclosure. I feel bad for him. Its sad. I dont care HOW much you go out and interact with the animal and exercise it. Unless you are outside 90% of the day and night with the animal you are being mean. 

I will acknowledge that you may be providing excellent vet care and even exercising the dog properly. The dog will still be depressed, lonely, and dejected.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

vicky2200 said:


> As for his reasoning (its cleaner inside if the dog is outside): Then maybe you shouldn't have pets. Pets make a mess.


Not to mention children aren't exactly clean.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Not to mention children aren't exactly clean.


Unless you keep them in a kennel...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I was a little off-put by the insinuation he was a "working dog" and thus wouldn't be a "pet dog", so had to be treated so much differently than "any old pet" that lived inside...and my feelings on that are, a dog won't have a protective instinct unless he gets to know you and bond with you and your family.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

vicky2200 said:


> I know he isnt responding anymore but--
> I never could understand why someone would get a dog and keep them outdoors. Why would you have a pet you dont want to spend as much time as possible with? As for his reasoning (its cleaner inside if the dog is outside): Then maybe you shouldn't have pets. Pets make a mess. German Shepherds especially make messes. The amount of hair I am looking at is APPALLING! (our vacuum is broken.) However, even if I never got my vacuum fixed (I am dont worry) I would never put my dogs outside because there was too much hair. My neighbor has a dog in a TINY enclosure. I feel bad for him. Its sad. I dont care HOW much you go out and interact with the animal and exercise it. Unless you are outside 90% of the day and night with the animal you are being mean.
> 
> I will acknowledge that you may be providing excellent vet care and even exercising the dog properly. The dog will still be depressed, lonely, and dejected.


Hair is one thing, but not what got my girls the boot. It was their appauling water habits. I might let them in, but the water has to be outside period. Those bitches will suck up a whole mouth full and carry it two rooms away to dump it wherever they want to be. Duh! you are supposed to be a SMART breed. Do you really think you can bring your water with you??? They play in it. Bear jumps up and down in it. They blow bubbles in it, BUBBLES!!! They put their toys in it. I just know that if they didn't think I was the big bad alpha bitch, they would have my clicker, my car keys, and my cell phone in their water bucket. 

Nope, total lack of water manners has the water bucket bannished from the house. The dogs like the buckets, and they do just fine outside with them. 

It may be cruel to put one dog outside, but when you have more than one, having some outside time in the kennel is not cruel at all.


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## Alexandria610 (Dec 2, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I was a little off-put by the insinuation he was a "working dog" and thus wouldn't be a "pet dog", so had to be treated so much differently than "any old pet" that lived inside.....


Well, all things considered, it also depends greatly on where/how you were raised. I know plenty of people who have cattle and livestock, and have dogs that are strictly 'working dogs' that live outside 24/7 and are not raised as 'pet dogs.' Just because someone owns a GSD (or any dog for that matter) and wants it to be strictly a working dog, does not mean that it automatically will be treated like trash or treated in any way that may be harmful. In fact, the 'working dogs' that the people I know have are treated better than their children. The dogs receive everything they need to be a healthy, well-mannered, mentally balanced animal. 

I guess it's just because of where I was from, but as long as the animal in question has all of its basic needs met and is well-balanced....then why does it matter what the dog is being labeled as?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Alexandria610 said:


> Well, all things considered, it also depends greatly on where/how you were raised. I know plenty of people who have cattle and livestock, and have dogs that are strictly 'working dogs' that live outside 24/7 and are not raised as 'pet dogs.'


But again, we're circling back to the fact that farm/ranch dogs spend a lot of time out on the property, working with their people. Not locked in a box while the family stays inside.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well again, he wants it to be a protection dog and unless that dog is in the house, a dog kenneled outside every night is not going to be a protection dog, well, it might bark but the intruder can easily shoot a dog kenneled outside to shut it up, or poison it, and break in anyway. If you read the OPs original intros, you'd see what I am talking about. He had the goal of training these dogs to give women in DV situations. 

A dog raised on a farm that is a cattle dog is one thing...we're very rural here and I see Pyrs outside living in the goat pens here all over the place and they seem mentally okay, but their coats...that's another story 

I do understand the concept of being an outdoors working dog. Just not necessarily in this situation because of the goals of the OP for that dog.

If you wanted a strictly Sch dog that's okay, but if your goal is to also have this dog protect the home and people in it, how is it going to do that kenneled outside??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I was 10, I wanted my shetland pony to live in my house. My parents said no, he needs to live in the pasture and in the barn at night. I thought they were cruel. 
He was all alone and we took him from his love and other pasture friends. Duke escaped when someone cut our pasture wire.
He went back to his old farm a couple miles away. He did not want to be with us, but with his friends and his other half/Dutchess. Animals want to be where they feel the love... 
I'd never have an only horse again


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> Well again, he wants it to be a protection dog and unless that dog is in the house, a dog kenneled outside every night is not going to be a protection dog, well, it might bark but the intruder can easily shoot a dog kenneled outside to shut it up, or poison it, and break in anyway. If you read the OPs original intros, you'd see what I am talking about. He had the goal of training these dogs to give women in DV situations.
> 
> A dog raised on a farm that is a cattle dog is one thing...we're very rural here and I see Pyrs outside living in the goat pens here all over the place and they seem mentally okay, but their coats...that's another story
> 
> ...


It depends on what you need. If you need an early warning system, a dog barking outside might mean get the pistol. But chances are the dog can bark itself to death and no one would bother with it, because a dog outside alone will often bark and bark and bark. So then when the intruder shoots (noise) or poisons the dog, the barking stops and wow, get the gun! 

If you want a dog to protect you when you are out walking the dog, an outdoor dog can do that as well as an indoor dog if you train it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> When I was 10, I wanted my shetland pony to live in my house. My parents said no, he needs to live in the pasture and in the barn at night. I thought they were cruel.
> He was all alone and we took him from his love and other pasture friends. Duke escaped when someone cut our pasture wire.
> He went back to his old farm a couple miles away. He did not want to be with us, but with his friends and his other half/Dutchess. Animals want to be where they feel the love...
> I'd never have an only horse again


Really there are only a few animals that tend to be solitary. Most animals like to be in a group or at least with a mate. It is that desire to group up, that makes them good candidates as pets. Keeping a dog, and then ignoring the dog is cruel. Other animals too. If we take them away from their own kind, then we need to fill the gap.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Maybe that's what people are responding to here, too...the fact that most of us feel our dogs (in the home) make our lives complete, their fur isn't an inconvenience, their smells (usually) aren't distasteful, we love them and want them underfoot and enjoy them that way. Some even keep us warm at night 

My parents take off their dogs' collars because of the noise of their tags...other than at night, I don't mind my dog's tags jingling at all, although anymore I take the collars off due to playing outside, etc., I don't want them to get them hung up. 
But when their tags are jingling, it's comforting. The house is way too quiet when they are _all_ outside.


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## blehmannwa (Jan 11, 2011)

It's not my lifestyle to have an outside dog. It never has been. I'm including farm and ranch dogs. 
I just remembered an exception. I was taking care of a chow for the summer and he refused to come in at night. He slept on the deck. I didn't care for it but he was the landlord's dog and had lived on the property longer than I had.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Is it too late to get something in here?  My breeder has most of his dogs live with families. He doesn't like them living in kennels. He has them, but his dogs don't live in them. His bitches and his studs are all with their own families, except for his stud, Uno. He's a Sch. 3 dog, FABULOUS dog--his protection is awesome. He sleeps rotatingly on each of his 3 kids' beds. 

My last shep mix slept outside in an insulated doghouse with straw for most of the year, HIS choice. When summer arrived, he slept inside. I made him come in every day in the winter and hang out with us, even though he whined because he was hot. He was a great dog, but he spent most of his time with us, not just outside, although he slept out there. Next dog was a yellow therapy trained lab who you couldn't have made stay outside (unless we were out there) if you had a hot dog factory blow up even. Had to be with us, whereever we were. This GSD pup sleeps inside with us, and when he's hot, he goes out on the deck where it's cooler to lay during the day. He will continue to sleep and spend his time with us.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

It was actually in Halo's contract that she would be a member of the family and not just a yard or kennel dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's in our contract and adoption application that none of our dogs will live solely outside, they are to be full-fledged family members. Some (small dogs) have even come to us accustomed to sleeping on furniture or beds, and we ask that people continue that in their new environs.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

It was also in my contract when I got Apache, 9 years ago, that he must be intergraded into my family and not left outside. I never had a contract before and I was suprised it also stated the dog must not be tied out on a chain as a lawn ornament and a lot of other things that I took as basic common sense and dog care but it had to be spelled out in black & white, I do understand why.


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## jang (May 1, 2011)

hey cowboy don't get discouraged--you have put a lot of thought into the arrival of your new baby and no one here knows the dynamics of your situation..this forum has taught me that i know nothing about being a mom to my gsd except the love part--that is a good place to start and you obviously are so excited to get gunner and to love him...everything else will fall into place..your heart seems sincere and your building abilities are admirable..please keep us updated with pics and such
jan


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> I think keeping the dog in solitary "before and after training", and not considering keeping the dog inside with the family is going to be counter-productive to his long-term goals.


Coming into this late....tho I guess this thread isn't all THAT old, it just got long very quickly!

Keeping a dog in solitary for 30 minutes or so before and after training is actually a good idea. Lots of times people end training sessions with a game of fetch or a good game of tug, and the game afterward becomes a lot more fun and rewarding to the dog than the training session. The game ends up being the focus and goal, at least in the dog's mind. I'd rather have the training session be the fun stuff! Of course I mix a lot of games into training, but the obedience work the interaction should be what the dog looks forward to. 

With new or young dogs, that can be further accentuated by some quiet time in a crate after training, rather than a wild game. I want them to look forward to the training, rather than looking forward to the END of training. Hope this makes some sense! 

As to the idea of keeping dogs outside....well....depending on weather and my schedule, my dogs will be outside anywhere from 6 to 12 hours every day. Usually when I'm home one dog is inside with me for some one on one time. I think that's a lot better than living in a crate while I'm at work. Right now it's raining a bit so all 3 are in here with me, and when I leave Mike will be crated and Bunny will stay in an x-pen. Ianna, at age 13.5, gets to be wherever she wants to be!

I probably won't catch up on this thread, but figured I'd throw in my 2 cents anyway......


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

DunRingill said:


> , and when I leave Mike will be crated and Bunny will stay in an x-pen. Ianna, at age 13.5, gets to be wherever she wants to be!
> .


Bunny will actually _stay_ in an ex-pen?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It seems to me that if you're training elsewhere than home, putting them in a crate and driving home (to us, it would be at least a 30 min drive) would serve that purpose?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

P.S.: I agree about some crate time/quiet time before and after training. I think they can do a lot of processing after a training session and you get some "bonus learning," and it almost always better if they come into a training session happy and eager to interact without a lot of distractions already on the brain.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> It seems to me that if you're training elsewhere than home, putting them in a crate and driving home (to us, it would be at least a 30 min drive) would serve that purpose?


Yes, it does. IMNSHO.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Yes, it does. *IMNSHO*.


Love it, can I borrow it?


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

OR you can do a sport like AGILITY that the dog finds to be more fun than the tug/fetch after training, lol.

oke::rofl:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We have always done that with scent work. Put the dog up at least 30 minutes after a training drill to "let them think". I think it is pretty widely done.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> Love it, can I borrow it?


Ha. I didn't come up with it--it's as old as the internet. Go for it.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Bunny will actually _stay_ in an ex-pen?


YES!! Shocking, I know. Mike will too! 

Bunny probably doesn't need to be in an x-pen anymore, or even crated, but everyone is happy that way so no big deal. Ianna likes her quiet time....this way she can sleep next to Bunny without being pestered by Bunny 

Mike isn't nice to The Bunny so that's why he's crated.....


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Just curious, if a dog's brain lives in the moment, how can you be sure that during crating after training, he isn't thinking, "...squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, jolly ball, squirrel, squirrel..."


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> OR you can do a sport like AGILITY that the dog finds to be more fun than the tug/fetch after training, lol.
> 
> oke::rofl:


The dog might love it, but this handler does NOT. 

They have enough variety between herding, obedience, tracking, rally, schutzhund....might go back to flyball some day....they don't have to do agility too. Tho I should finish Mike's Novice JWW title, he has 2 legs in 2 attempts....probably would look better if he was actually TRAINED for it tho  He spends too much time in the air to ever be good at agility!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ditto...letting them "think" is known not to work as a discipline technique, I wonder how they are supposed to "think" about what they did 20 minutes ago?

It's a nice concept but in reality I doubt they are contemplating if they should have turned left instead of right and kicking themselves in the rear and vowing to themselves that the next time they'll "do it right"...!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Just curious, if a dog's brain lives in the moment, how can you be sure that during crating after training, he isn't thinking, "...squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, jolly ball, squirrel, squirrel..."


I don't really believe that they lie there and think over the training session. It's more like the training session doesn't get wiped away by other more-stimulating interactions or distractions.

But more than anything else, I've seen the results of giving a training session time to sink in. 

Say you are working on a difficult problem, you get some level of success/comprehension/change in behavior. If you keep working at that point, you are just as likely to have to go through all the training steps again very shortly--either by undoing the learning you have just done or by "overwriting it" with other training. But if you stop working, put the dog away, let him rest and refresh, and bring the dog back out in 30 minutes or an hour, you will often get the desired behavior on the first try. Usually you get a response that is better than the final response that you rewarded before you put the dog away.

So, no matter how it works or why it works, I firmly believe it works.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> Just curious, if a dog's brain lives in the moment, how can you be sure that during crating after training, he isn't thinking, "...squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, jolly ball, squirrel, squirrel..."


if they live in the moment and they're in a crate, why would they be thinking "squirrel?"


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

Thanks, Christine, that makes sense. That was a joke, Regina.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's what I was thinking more along the lines of than them actually mulling something over in their minds.
Because I also believe it works as a discipline technique, for instance, if they bite a sibling too hard during the puppy days, the last thing that happened (before sibling left them) is they bit too hard, and their sibling goes away. That is enough to make them modify their behavior with regards to biting too hard.

I think the way we train and interact with dogs has to be as "natural" as possible, that is, something that would occur as a natural consequence, if it's positive or negative to them, in order for any type training to work.
There's hundreds of ways to train, but IMO this is why some methods are far superior to others.




BlackthornGSD said:


> I don't really believe that they lie there and think over the training session. It's more like the training session doesn't get wiped away by other more-stimulating interactions or distractions.
> 
> But more than anything else, I've seen the results of giving a training session time to sink in.
> 
> ...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

BlackthornGSD said:


> But more than anything else, I've seen the results of giving a training session time to sink in.
> 
> Say you are working on a difficult problem, you get some level of success/comprehension/change in behavior. If you keep working at that point, you are just as likely to have to go through all the training steps again very shortly--either by undoing the learning you have just done or by "overwriting it" with other training. But if you stop working, put the dog away, let him rest and refresh, and bring the dog back out in 30 minutes or an hour, you will often get the desired behavior on the first try. Usually you get a response that is better than the final response that you rewarded before you put the dog away.
> 
> So, no matter how it works or why it works, I firmly believe it works.


Latent learning.  And I know it works for ME, too! If I have trouble finding an error in something at work I can go over and over and over it and still not see it. But if I put that task away and do something else and then come back to it, preferably the next day, I often find that it's instantly obvious where the mistake is, and easily corrected.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Latent learning.  And I know it works for ME, too! If I have trouble finding an error in something at work I can go over and over and over it and still not see it. But if I put that task away and do something else and then come back to it, preferably the next day, I often find that it's instantly obvious where the mistake is, and easily corrected.


I do the same thing! Here I always thought it was because God has a warped sense of humor.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I don't really believe that they lie there and think over the training session. It's more like the training session doesn't get wiped away by other more-stimulating interactions or distractions.
> 
> But more than anything else, I've seen the results of giving a training session time to sink in.
> 
> ...


Just got home from work and saw your post, THANK YOU for explaining it so well. I'm feeling particularly NOT VERBAL this afternoon....not good when I have to go teach 3 classes tonight! Maybe a nap first.....


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## KileysCritters (Nov 5, 2010)

cowboy17 said:


> mikko---
> 
> *You have high hopes for training, but don't want to train the dog to behave inside*
> 
> ...


"Absorb" the work? Wow, you have absolutely ZERO knowledge of dog biology or behavior. You have no business training a dog in basic obedience let alone Schutzhund. Honestly, I'd find your ignorance hilarious if it wasn't so tragic for the dog.

Furthermore, whether you're training the dog for therapy or bite work, it doesn't change the fact that by nature, dogs are social animals. Period. If you can't or won't satisfy their mental and emotional needs as well as their physical ones, then you shouldn't own a dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted by cowboy17
> mikko---
> 
> You have high hopes for training, but don't want to train the dog to behave inside
> ...





KileysCritters said:


> "Absorb" the work? Wow, you have absolutely ZERO knowledge of dog biology or behavior. You have no business training a dog in basic obedience let alone Schutzhund. Honestly, I'd find your ignorance hilarious if it wasn't so tragic for the dog.
> 
> Furthermore, whether you're training the dog for therapy or bite work, it doesn't change the fact that by nature, dogs are social animals. Period. If you can't or won't satisfy their mental and emotional needs as well as their physical ones, then you shouldn't own a dog.


KileysCritters,
A little bit harsh there for your 2nd post on the forum!  And why bring up such an old thread to do so?
The person was asking questions....and IMO they were legitimate ones.


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