# Need to rant!



## Dbrooke407

I am in desperate need to rant to a group of people that won't just think of me as a ridiculously crazy dog chick.
Today at work, one of my coworkers came off her break looking like she was about to cry. I asked what's wrong and she told me her GSD, Hurley, had just been hit by a car and that her vet wouldn't see him because they didn't want to work out a payment plan (which is all she can afford). Long story short, her bf calls and curses them out and they said to bring the dog in. He has a broken hip, head trauma, a punctured lung, and severe internal bleeding. With only a 10% survival rate, they gave my coworker and her bf 3 options:
1) put the dog to sleep,
2) put the dog through expensive surgeries he likely won't even survive, or
3) take Hurley home with a bottle if painkillers. 
They chose option 3. The vet said if he's still alive in 3 days to bring him back.
It may just be me, but I would NEVER have chosen option 3 with that small of a survival rate and THAT many SEVERE injuries. I would have either made a dang way to pay for the surgery or have him put to sleep with me standing there gently petting him so that he won't have to endure any pain. But no, they decided that even thought hey don't like the dog, they want to keep him around and hang on to that tiny 10 percent.

What REALLY burns my hide is that I am in the process of getting my Dog Obedience Trainer certification and offered her FREE help to get Hurley to stop breaking out of their yard and chasing cars down a freaking highway. But they didn't care enough about Hurley to accept my FREAKING FREE HELP. 
I told her if he lives I'd be more than happy to help stop this terrible car chasing habit and she STILL didn't want to bother with it simply because they don't feel like putting in the time it would take to break the habit. 

I realize that I'm extremely passionate about animals and a lot of people just aren't. But I can't even handle this level of sheer cruelty to bring him home and (according to my coworker) let him try to walk around with a miserable expression on his face.

So many times she has called him a bad dog and I just wanted to tell her that there's no such thing as a bad dog, it's a bad dog owner. 

RAFHHHGAJSNJWS. 

Sorry, I know it's long but the only friend I have that would even remotely understand my frustrations would start crying and I don't feel like making them cry. 


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## TheModestMouse

Wow. Just wow. I feel so bad for the dog. This situation, like you said, could have been avoided. 

When my mom's 12 year old dog Lucy (a red nose pit bull terrier) was suffering of persistent skin cancer, hip problems, and had lost 14 pounds for an unknown reason(not worms), we made the hard choice to put her to sleep. For a while pain meds would work, but after a while she required too much meds to stop the pain. So much that she would have begun to get lethargic and stoned. We knew it would be unfair to keep her in a drugged and uncomfortable state just to have her around longer. 

You are not alone in seeing the actions of Hurley's owners as unfair and selfish. I feel for you and am sorry for the situation you have been exposed to.


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## Dbrooke407

TheModestMouse said:


> Wow. Just wow. I feel so bad for the dog. This situation, like you said, could have been avoided.
> 
> When my mom's 12 year old dog Lucy (a red nose pit bull terrier) was suffering of persistent skin cancer, hip problems, and had lost 14 pounds for an unknown reason(not worms), we made the hard choice to put her to sleep. For a while pain meds would work, but after a while she required too much meds to stop the pain. So much that she would have begun to get lethargic and stoned. We knew it would be unfair to keep her in a drugged and uncomfortable state just to have her around longer.
> 
> You are not alone in seeing the actions of Hurley's owners as unfair and selfish. I feel for you and am sorry for the situation you have been exposed to.


What gets me is that after talking trash about this dog and saying how terrible he is (and refusing any help I offer) she wants to turn around and mope about the whole thing to me. No! No ma'am! You don't just get to refuse help to get Hurley to quit chasing cars and then get upset that he's dying a slow and painful death in front of you because he chased a car and you made the ridiculous decision to keep him around while BLEEDING TO DEATH INTERNALLY AND STRUGGLING TO BREATHE. 


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## Dbrooke407

TheModestMouse said:


> Wow. Just wow. I feel so bad for the dog. This situation, like you said, could have been avoided.
> 
> When my mom's 12 year old dog Lucy (a red nose pit bull terrier) was suffering of persistent skin cancer, hip problems, and had lost 14 pounds for an unknown reason(not worms), we made the hard choice to put her to sleep. For a while pain meds would work, but after a while she required too much meds to stop the pain. So much that she would have begun to get lethargic and stoned. We knew it would be unfair to keep her in a drugged and uncomfortable state just to have her around longer.
> 
> You are not alone in seeing the actions of Hurley's owners as unfair and selfish. I feel for you and am sorry for the situation you have been exposed to.


In November of 2012 and then January of 2013 we put down one dog after another. One had a stroke and the other had cancer. It was extremely hard as in August of 2012 my sister was supposed to have been killed when an 18 wheeler hit her (not her in a car, but her physically) while he was going 75mph. She's alive and well, thank God! But It was like one horrible thing after another. Poor Gracie (stroke) couldn't even stand up on her own and we had to put her down two days after my sister got to come home from a 3 month long stint in the hospital. Right after Gracie got put down, Solomon (cancer) developed cancer and it hit extremely hard and fast. We didn't want to wait until he was completely miserable to put him to sleep. After only 2 weeks of finding out it was cancer, he was like another dog. Hardest decisions we had to make and they really upset my sister because she hadn't seen them for months and when she finally got to they both died. It was a complete mess, the whole thing. But we did what was right by the dogs. 


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## DaniFani

sigh....as someone who just put their *young* dog down...it can be a very very very difficult decision if you are told there is a CHANCE they can make it....my dog had multiple systems failing him, and I held on *longer* than some would have, but let go *before* some would have....I understand your frustration, but it's their dog, not yours, and I would be very upset if in the middle of all my struggling with the decision, I felt someone judging me and thinking they could do it better...I know if I went into gory detail about my dog's conditions and problems many would have given me a laundry list of things to try and beg me not to put him down...some may even have gotten rude about it and said me putting him down was wrong...focus your passion and compassion into *your* dogs and the dogs of people seeking your help. I have begun to feel the same way about other dog owners as I do about other parents....short of them physically beating/abusing or neglecting the child/dog....it's none of my business.....


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## Dbrooke407

DaniFani said:


> sigh....as someone who just put their *young* dog down...it can be a very very very difficult decision if you are told there is a CHANCE they can make it....my dog had multiple systems failing him, and I held on *longer* than some would have, but let go *before* some would have....I understand your frustration, but it's their dog, not yours, and I would be very upset if in the middle of all my struggling with the decision, I felt someone judging me and thinking they could do it better...I know if I went into gory detail about my dog's conditions and problems many would have given me a laundry list of things to try and beg me not to put him down...some may even have gotten rude about it and said me putting him down was wrong...focus your passion and compassion into *your* dogs and the dogs of people seeking your help. I have begun to feel the same way about other dog owners as I do about other parents....short of them physically beating/abusing or neglecting the child/dog....it's none of my business.....


If they even liked the dog, I could understand a struggle of decision. But they literally don't like the dog. And this isn't even the first time he's been hit by a car. Still don't want help with his car chasing. 


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## JakodaCD OA

feel terrible for the dog, not so much for the owners Accidents happen but this sounds like they knew he was an accident waiting to happen and ignored it


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## wyominggrandma

I personally would have to wonder about a vet that sends a dog home with broken hip, head trauma, a punctured lung, and severe internal bleeding with a bottle of pain meds. Then tells her to bring dog back in 3 days if it is still alive?
Even if the dog did live, I would have to consider very hard using a vet that sent a dog out the door in critical condition.
Seems a bit fishy to me, maybe the owner is fabricating a bit for sympathy?


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## Sarah~

wyominggrandma said:


> I personally would have to wonder about a vet that sends a dog home with broken hip, head trauma, a punctured lung, and severe internal bleeding with a bottle of pain meds. Then tells her to bring dog back in 3 days if it is still alive?
> Even if the dog did live, I would have to consider very hard using a vet that sent a dog out the door in critical condition.
> Seems a bit fishy to me, maybe the owner is fabricating a bit for sympathy?


This is what I was thinking.... The "here's some pain pills bring him back in 3 days if he lives" part was pretty alarming to me. Sounds like you are the only one speaking up for the poor thing if the vet really said that.


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## holland

That does sound really off for a vet to have said that


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## ken k

classic example why some people should not own a dog, i feel bad now cause I know the dog is suffering


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## Stevenzachsmom

Wow! Just Wow! Thank you for caring. What a tough position for you to be in. You must want to strangle these people. I know I would. I totally agree with the vet comments. Why on earth would he/she give that option? There should have been two options - surgery or PTS. Of course anyone can make the option to do neither and take the dog home, but that should have been something the vet strongly advised against.

Dani, I understand how you feel. I also did not post all my ups and downs with my senior dog. I had already made decisions concerning her health and last days. I wasn't looking for opinions. I truly don't think people here would have argued with me too much about that. I don't think people would have argued with your decisions either. You obviously loved your dog very much and took excellent care of him. This story is a completely different situation. Based on what the OP has said, I find it hard to have any sympathy for these owners. Their dog was hit by a car. They took no precautions to make sure this didn't happen. They were resistant to putting in time and effort, with free help offered, to train the dog. Now, the dog is in sad shape, probably dying. They don't like the dog, yet are content to watch it suffer. I feel for the poor dog.


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## arycrest

Dbrooke407 said:


> ...
> they didn't want to work out a payment plan (which is all she can afford).
> ...
> 1) put the dog to sleep,
> 2) put the dog through expensive surgeries he likely won't even survive, or
> 3) take Hurley home with a bottle if painkillers.
> ...





wyominggrandma said:


> I personally would have to wonder about a vet that sends a dog home with broken hip, head trauma, a punctured lung, and severe internal bleeding with a bottle of pain meds. Then tells her to bring dog back in 3 days if it is still alive?
> Even if the dog did live, I would have to consider very hard using a vet that sent a dog out the door in critical condition.
> Seems a bit fishy to me, maybe the owner is fabricating a bit for sympathy?


 I honestly don't understand some people, what a tragic story about Hurley and his good for nothing owners!!! 

As far as the options the vet gave the co-worker ... if they refused to work out a payment plan ... and ... if they refused the option to put the dog down ... and ... if they refused the option for surgery ... what should the vet have done except to keep Hurley as comfortable as possible with the pain medication and tell them to bring him back in a certain time frame if he was still alive? 

IMHO you can't expect a vet to swallow the expenses of every pet owner who can't afford proper care and/or won't accept some type of a payment plan in order to get proper care. And if a vet did accept this type of arrangement and swallow all the animal's expenses, all he'd do is pass on those expenses, via higher rates, on to his/her other patients. I personally have enough problems paying for my own animal's care without being required to help pay for the care of a pet owned by some irresponsible idiot.


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## Dbrooke407

wyominggrandma said:


> I personally would have to wonder about a vet that sends a dog home with broken hip, head trauma, a punctured lung, and severe internal bleeding with a bottle of pain meds. Then tells her to bring dog back in 3 days if it is still alive?
> Even if the dog did live, I would have to consider very hard using a vet that sent a dog out the door in critical condition.
> Seems a bit fishy to me, maybe the owner is fabricating a bit for sympathy?


Honestly, I hope you're right. Because i thought the same thing. Then again, I'm from the south and the state with the most cases of dog fighting so nothing tragic down here really surprises me anymore. 


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## Dbrooke407

Oh! I dont know how I forgot to mention that the vet they brought him to is the only vet around here that works out payment plans. But didn't want to in this case. 


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## arycrest

Dbrooke407 said:


> Oh! I dont know how I forgot to mention that the vet they brought him to is the only vet around here that works out payment plans. But didn't want to in this case.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


OMG ... I misunderstood your original message ... I thought it was your co-worker and her BF who didn't want to work out a payment plan, not the vet ... sorry about that!!!


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## suebisaga

How do we really know what the vet said. It's been stated these people do not even like the dog. Why would the vet even try to save the dog when the people don't even like him. He could have offered to have them sign him over and done the surgery on his own dime and time but again why if there's a 10% chance he'll live. Think about it they didn't say save him at all cost, they said what's cheapest. At least he sent them home with pain meds. He could have said sorry there nothing I can do and let them take him home to just suffer, since they are to selfish to put him down or do the surgery. Really I think blaming the vet is way off base. A lot of us have close relationships with our vets who know us and our pets and know we'd move heaven and earth to save them (my vet lets me keep a tab and pay it off as I can) but there no telling if these owners are "good" owners and the vet has any reason to believe they will make payments. The poster said he's been hit before and he chases cars and the owners do nothing. How is them being crappy owners and people make the vet a bad person. 
Just saying bashing the vets isn't right, we don't know all the facts. They might have let them make a payment plan before and they stiff him or he might know them and know they are not responsible or reliable people.


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## Springbrz

Maybe a complaint of animal cruelty to your local PD or animal society is in order. If the dog is really that injured and suffering IMHO it is animal cruelty to not PTS the dog. I understand the vet can't make the owners do anything they don't want to and/or can't afford but the courts can and will intervene on the dogs behalf quickly if needed. 
Of course a call like that is totally up to you. It may bring some issue with your co-worker into the workplace that you may not want. Ultimately, this is not a good situation all the way around. I believe you are right to be angry. 
My heart lies with that poor suffering dog.


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## suebisaga

I do feel bad for the dog too. But the vet couldn't force them to put him down as you said but maybe Animal care and control could if they felt he was suffering bad enough.
These are the kind of people who get mad at the person who hit there dog when it was running loose on a road to begin with. It's tragic but if the dog lives maybe they will have learned a lesson and care for the dog better.


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## selzer

C'mon folks, complaining to the humane society, when they took the dog to the vet?

Not everyone is ready to put a dog down. 

When I was young my dad would not let me get a shepherd. So when I moved out, I got one. I wanted this dog for a decade or more. And when I finally got him, I was a terrible owner. I didn't have a clue. The dog was not the picture of Rin Tin Tin that I wanted. Instead he was a bi-color with drop ears. He wan't very obedient either. He was a high energy, high drive working/byb cross and I was a soft, undisciplined owner. At a year and a half, the dog got loose and got run over by a pick up truck. 

But I loved him. I was responsible for him. 

My landlords called me, and told me they saw the accident and the dog is hiding in the bushes. All the way home, I was trying to build myself up to ask the vet if I should put him down. Then I would wonder if I was just looking for an excuse to put him down. Then I wondered how bad it would be to lose him. And finally, I got home, and we got him in the car and to the vet.

His front leg was shattered. He needed a rod put in it, and that would cost $2000, and I just didn't have it at the time. I asked the vet if I should put him down. What the vet told me was: No, he is a young dog and it will heal. Get a crate and keep him in the crate for 8 weeks letting him out twice a day to potty. At that point, we can evaluate it, and if necessary amputate. 

I think now that he would have been better off as a tri-pod. But I had him until he was 7 years. And after it healed he loved life. He was still a bi-color, high energy, bad, a little aggressive, drop-eared dominant disaster. But he taught me more about managing dogs than many of my much better saddle back, black and tan, upright ears, lower drives, and very biddible dogs ever did. 

The idea that my landlords might have considered calling animal control on me for keeping him alive never crossed my mind. 

I think people are way too quick to judge others. They do not want to train the dog or manage the dog they way that you think they should. They say the dog is bad. That doesn't mean they do not care for the dog. 

It is hard to put a young dog down. I have. I had a dog that was hurting, and I made that decision for her. It was terrible, even though I know I did the right thing. It is a decision that only the owner can make for the dog, it is not easy. 

Maybe after the serious accident, if the dog lives, he will be less likely or less able to get out of the yard and chase cars.

When you offer advice or help, it is a gift. The gift can be accepted or not accepted. You offered, and that is nice of you. Not everyone wants to be beholden to another person. Not everyone thinks that something is worth doing. When we offer something, we should always be willing for the other person to accept or not to accept what we offer.


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## marbury

suebisaga said:


> I do feel bad for the dog too. But the vet couldn't force them to put him down as you said but maybe Animal care and control could if they felt he was suffering bad enough.


This. Our clinic has had patients walk out or refuse necessary treatment/euthanasia for their critically ill pets, and we have called AC to report the situation and hopefully get some care or compliance for the poor animal. Ultimately, it's a super sucky decision for everybody but the dog. The client is always livid, because in their minds they're 'doing the best they can' for their pet, and don't understand that their pet is in severe pain and would be better off at peace than in agony. So the client usually gets angry at the vet, and we never feel good about it because the poor dog ends up being gassed at a shelter with twenty other dogs instead of passing peacefully in the office with loving folks all around.

Sorry your coworker is so blind about their responsibility for their own pet and the ways they could have actively prevented this issue from ever arising. Wishing you continued patience with them!

ETA: selzer, the difference is that your dog had a good long-term prognosis. The dog the OP is describing did not. I have no issue with an owner going home with their ill animal and refusing TX, happens all the time with parvo-positive puppies at our clinic. A good number come back to see us months later with some home care. Same with fractures like yours. But if you have massive internal bleeding, fractured pelvis... those aren't 'well, try crating him for a few months and we'll see' issues.


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## selzer

Sometimes, people will take the dog home and need a little time to make the decision to put a dog down. Not everyone thinks death is better than suffering, if there is a chance of a recovery. And not everyone is willing or able to do extensive medical treatment on a dog where the overall prognosis for the dog is low, even with surgery. 

When I ask the vet, I will ask them, "if this was your dog, what would you do?" Of course I have been working with my vets for about 30 years, so I feel pretty comfortable that they will answer me with the best interests of the dog in mind. My vet said he would put Dubya down. He was five. I did. That was hard. He was a nice dog. But the vet would not have done back surgery on him, considering his size, structure, and prognosis of the surgery itself. So I went ahead and put him down. It didn't have anything to do with money -- I had it in the bank, as it did with Frodo. 

People who don't bother to take the dog to the vet need to be visited by AC. People who have taken the dog to the vet, should be let to follow whichever option they chose for the dog. It is a personal decision.


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## marbury

selzer said:


> People who don't bother to take the dog to the vet need to be visited by AC. People who have taken the dog to the vet, should be let to follow whichever option they chose for the dog. It is a personal decision.


Totally true. At the end of the day, though, not everybody is capable (for whatever reason) of making responsible, well-informed decisions. Especially clients who are not entirely present due to age, condition, or drug use. I know nothing about the OP's coworker and I'm sure that they aren't having to deal with anything other than their own personal issues with death and suffering, but there are definitely circumstances in which I wholeheartedly agreed with the vets calling AC on our clients. Every situation is different.


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## selzer

marbury said:


> This. Our clinic has had patients walk out or refuse necessary treatment/euthanasia for their critically ill pets, and we have called AC to report the situation and hopefully get some care or compliance for the poor animal. Ultimately, it's a super sucky decision for everybody but the dog. The client is always livid, because in their minds they're 'doing the best they can' for their pet, and don't understand that their pet is in severe pain and would be better off at peace than in agony. So the client usually gets angry at the vet, and we never feel good about it because the poor dog ends up being gassed at a shelter with twenty other dogs instead of passing peacefully in the office with loving folks all around.
> 
> Sorry your coworker is so blind about their responsibility for their own pet and the ways they could have actively prevented this issue from ever arising. Wishing you continued patience with them!
> 
> ETA: selzer, the difference is that your dog had a good long-term prognosis. The dog the OP is describing did not. I have no issue with an owner going home with their ill animal and refusing TX, happens all the time with parvo-positive puppies at our clinic. A good number come back to see us months later with some home care. Same with fractures like yours. But if you have massive internal bleeding, fractured pelvis... those aren't 'well, try crating him for a few months and we'll see' issues.



I don't know. I know that Cujo was really going down hill. I was there with dad with him the week before he died. And there was no hope in the vet for him. We all, everyone in the room knew we should put the poor boy down, but my mom was simply not ready. We took him home, and the dog seemed to do a little better for a couple of days, than over the weekend he went into a spiral. We made an appointment to put him down, and he died before the juice was put in him. 

We waited too long. But, the idea of the vet calling AC on us, that is just grusome. It wasn't because we didn't love that dog. It was because my mom still had some hope that the meds would work, and she wasn't ready to put him down. 

10% means 10 dogs out of 100 make it. 

If it is totally hopeless the vet should say point blank, that the dog is suffering, and he will not make it. It is best to put him down.


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## marbury

selzer said:


> If it is totally hopeless the vet should say point blank, that the dog is suffering, and he will not make it. It is best to put him down.


We can say it as point-blank as possible... Unfortunately, people don't hear that if they don't want to. All they hear, as you said, is that 10 out of 100 dogs make it, or 1 out of 100 dogs make it. Or they see that their pet is still breathing and is looking at them, or still eating (occasionally), or <insert whatever hopeful sign you please here>.

It's such a hard decision, such a painful one. I have been exceptionally fortunate in my life that I have not yet had to make that decision. I'm absolutely sure I'll struggle with it as much as some of our clients.


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## selzer

I guess, I would think that someone should be able to take their dog out of a clinic without treatment. They should be able to go to another clinic and get a second opinion. They should be able to take their dog home and shoot it, if they prefer that method of euthanasia. They should be able to pray for a miracle. I don't like the idea that a vet will call AC because someone did not follow their treatment plan.


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## Gretchen

This is so awful, you must feel sick. What I'm picturing is a dog who can't get up due to broken hip, brain swelling, low oxygen and confusion due to puncture lung, pain, shock and with the pain killers slowing every thing down, the dog slowly aspirating on its own blood and lying in its own waste.

Maybe someone else can paint a picture of recovery, because I can't see it.


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## marbury

Gretchen said:


> This is so awful, you must feel sick. What I'm picturing is a dog who can't get up due to broken hip, brain swelling, low oxygen and confusion due to puncture lung, pain, shock and with the pain killers slowing every thing down, the dog slowly aspirating on its own blood and lying in its own waste.
> 
> Maybe someone else can paint a picture of recovery, because I can't see it.


:thumbup: Much better said than I've managed thus far! Thank you for translating.


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## jang

The problem with people, is people...We are all different and all act differently under certain situations...It does no good to judge these people because we do not know their hearts..I hope the dog survives or I hope the dog dies without much more pain...But this is not my nor your decision..I am so sorry the dog is suffering..but I do not know whether the people are also suffering...If it comes to money..isn't PTS the cheapest? Long term care costs lots of money...I feel bad for all involved..


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## jang

Allow me to add, I think you are feeling almost responsible because you know you could have trained this dog to not chase cars..I bet you could have..but that does not mean that the dogs humans could also have made this dog listen to them...This is not your fault in any way , shape or form...The dog got dealt a bad hand...I am sorry you are so upset by this...


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## DaniFani

I just think it's so crazy that people are more prepared to grab their pitch forks rather than considering that there may be way more to this story....maybe OP already has a tinged view of her coworker, maybe the coworker didn't translate great what the vet said, maybe OP shouldn't comment/judge something if she isn't in the room, listening to the vet and seeing the dog. ***Maybe OP is exaggerating this because she was already mad that the coworker wouldn't take her up on "training classes." It just rubs me the wrong way that a bunch of people on the internet are judging someone who never asked for or wanted their opinions, and has no idea that their story is out their for the whole internet to see......in my opinion OP and everyone else needs to mind their own business...they took the dog to the vet...a lot of people wouldn't even do that....saying someone should call AC on them!? Are you kidding me....they SAW a VET! jeesh


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## lalachka

Lol I tried staying out and maybe I should have. 

I wanted to point out one more thing. The op said they don't like their dog. And then someone else commented saying 'it's already been stated that they don't like their dog'. 

And you know this how? The op doesn't know and anyone here doesn't either. 

The rest has been said by others already. 

Leave them alone. You don't know the story. 


As far as vets calling AC. I hope I never get a vet like that. That's just wrong. Besides, as selzer pointed out, the vet might be wrong with his diagnosis and people should have the right to get a second opinion. 

Yeah, quickness to judge always bothers me. People feel better about themselves when putting others down.


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## selzer

I think all of us love dogs. None of us want to see a dog suffer needlessly. And it is so very easy to compare another person's care of their animals to your own standards. 

My brother has a dog, who about 8 years ago, got run over. My brother lives on a dirt road, he does not believe in dogs being in the house. He has a heated garage, where he allows the dogs to sleep. He has no fencing. 

So his dog is run over by a car, and he really likes this collie, think spaying her was his biggest mistake because she is so smart, etc. He picks her up, and she bites him bad in the face. He gets her to the vet, my vet, and they say she has a dislocated hip. They tell him what it will cost to give her the treatment she needs. He doesn't have the money and is furious with my vet to this day for not treating her anyway.

So he took her home and let her go around with a dislocated hip. So I am furious with him for not finding the money for his dog to be fixed. I mean they found the money for a new fridge, a new kitchen, to build him a building, to put up a barn and bring in some horses. They found the money to put up a jungle gym for the grand kids, they recently found the money for a swimming pool. 

Now the kids know how to pop the dog's hip back in when it goes out. She is about 13 now and still going strong. Maybe I was wrong. About that. 

I am sure that some of the decisions I make with my critters, my brother may not agree with. But he is not a nutty dog owner. He has pet dogs, some get killed in the road. Most of them do just fine. They do not train them, but they have a kajillian kids, live in grand kids, cousins, siblings, friends, and partially related people in and out of there that all the dogs are very social, and none have serious behavior issues. 

I understand being upset about it. I don't understand people encouraging going to AC about it.


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## sparra

DaniFani said:


> I just think it's so crazy that people are more prepared to grab their pitch forks rather than considering that there may be way more to this story....maybe OP already has a tinged view of her coworker, maybe the coworker didn't translate great what the vet said, maybe OP shouldn't comment/judge something if she isn't in the room, listening to the vet and seeing the dog. ***Maybe OP is exaggerating this because she was already mad that the coworker wouldn't take her up on "training classes." It just rubs me the wrong way that a bunch of people on the internet are judging someone who never asked for or wanted their opinions, and has no idea that their story is out their for the whole internet to see......in my opinion OP and everyone else needs to mind their own business...they took the dog to the vet...a lot of people wouldn't even do that....saying someone should call AC on them!? Are you kidding me....they SAW a VET! jeesh


I agree with you......the whole thing sounds ridiculous......very one sided.
If they really didn't like this dog they would have jumped at the chance to have it euthanized........Story doesn't make sense


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## Springbrz

Springbrz said:


> Maybe a complaint of animal cruelty to your local PD or animal society is in order. If the dog is really that injured and suffering IMHO it is animal cruelty to not PTS the dog. I understand the vet can't make the owners do anything they don't want to and/or can't afford but the courts can and will intervene on the dogs behalf quickly if needed.
> Of course a call like that is totally up to you. It may bring some issue with your co-worker into the workplace that you may not want. Ultimately, this is not a good situation all the way around. I believe you are right to be angry.
> My heart lies with that poor suffering dog.


Might I respond to criticism of my own post.

This is a Forum and by it's nature people post here looking for input, advise, opinions of others. It appears that I have inflamed the emotions of several here. It was not my intention. I was not *"Judging*" anyone. it was a *suggestion *to the OP thus my post starting with a _"maybe_". The Suggestion was just that; a suggestion based on the OP's appraisal of the situation as the OP knows it. Thus why I stated it was "totally up to you" to the OP. And I did say it was not a good situation all they way around. 

I have myself had to put more than one dog down in my lifetime. I have had 2 dogs hit by cars in my lifetime as well. I am quit aware of the difficult and personal decision it is to put a pet to sleep. However, some people can't or won't make the right decision and need to have it made for them. It is part of the reason we have AC and Humane Societies. To protect animals from cruel and inhumane treatment. We take animals away from owners everyday in this country (USA) because they make them *suffer *by not feeding them enough, not giving them clean living areas, having too many pets in a confined place, etc. And more often then not the owner states they "love" their pets and just don't understand why the are being taken away. The mass's don't seem to have a problem with that...it is however in the best interest of the animal. But, I should be looked down on and *"JUDGED*" for stating that *I* feel if the OP's assessment of the situation is accurate that someone might need to intervene on behalf of a suffering dog.

I do respect the opinions of those who disagree with me. However, I will not apologize for my posted thoughts or opinions on the original post. 

That said: I closed my original post by stating 

My heart lies with that poor suffering dog.

Humbly,
Terri


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## selzer

I think there is a difference between someone's lack of every day maintenance leading to an otherwise healthy dog to be filthy, matted, starving, toenails grown into the skin, collar imbedded in the neck, than a dog who has had an accident or illness that causes their demise. In one case the people are allowing a healthy dog to suffer where there is a clear alternative. In the other case a dog that has had experienced sufficient care is undergoing what each of us and our dogs will undergo at some point, the rather ugliness of the end of life or serious illness/injury. 

It is so easy for us to suggest when someone else should end their dog's suffering. But each of us has a different definition of when its time. And only the people who know the dog best realizes whether the dog is experiencing any quality of life. I wouldn't want anyone making that decision for me, and so, I don't criticize others quickly or lightly how they decide for their critter.


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> I think there is a difference between someone's lack of every day maintenance leading to an otherwise healthy dog to be filthy, matted, starving, toenails grown into the skin, collar imbedded in the neck, than a dog who has had an accident or illness that causes their demise. In one case the people are allowing a healthy dog to suffer where there is a clear alternative. In the other case a dog that has had experienced sufficient care is undergoing what each of us and our dogs will undergo at some point, the rather ugliness of the end of life or serious illness/injury.
> 
> It is so easy for us to suggest when someone else should end their dog's suffering. But each of us has a different definition of when its time. And only the people who know the dog best realizes whether the dog is experiencing any quality of life. I wouldn't want anyone making that decision for me, and so, I don't criticize others quickly or lightly how they decide for their critter.


Ditto. :thumbup:


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## Springbrz

selzer said:


> I think there is a difference between someone's lack of every day maintenance leading to an otherwise healthy dog to be filthy, matted, starving, toenails grown into the skin, collar imbedded in the neck, than a dog who has had an accident or illness that causes their demise. In one case the people are allowing a healthy dog to suffer where there is a clear alternative. In the other case a dog that has had experienced sufficient care is undergoing what each of us and our dogs will undergo at some point, the rather ugliness of the end of life or serious illness/injury.
> 
> It is so easy for us to suggest when someone else should end their dog's suffering. But each of us has a different definition of when its time. And only the people who know the dog best realizes whether the dog is experiencing any quality of life. I wouldn't want anyone making that decision for me, and so, I don't criticize others quickly or lightly how they decide for their critter.


I'm not disagreeing with your point of view. What I am disagreeing with is the assessment that I was somehow criticizing the owners of the dog in question. And, the further assumption I was doing so, easily. Neither is true. I wasn't criticizing anyone. I feel it was a valid suggestion to the OP. The OP knows the situation better than anyone here. He/she can take my suggestion with a grain of salt as can everyone else on the forum. Or the OP can take my suggestion and act on if felt it is the appropriate thing to do. Again, it was just a suggestion to a particular situation. 

So Judge me, criticize me...for I have erred and posted a suggestion to a "rant". My mistake.


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## ozzymama

I hate these stories, but I always remember, there are people who believe for animals, just as many people (enough that it causes national debates) in permitting death to happen naturally. Just as you don't do an assisted suicide for Granny when she forgets your birthday, you don't do it for a dog. Now my opinion, give me another 2 years and shoot me full of morphine, even if I live another 50 years - kidding, I hate morphine. However, animals are property, just as you are not required to fix a black and decker coffee pot when it craps out and are free to buy a Cuisinart (example, my B&D crapped and I got tired of buying one a year, so I bought a Cuisinart and direct lined it), the same holds true ffor animals, as property. So you have people who view their animals as property and replace them at will, people who do not believe in medical intervention and folks who mortgage their homes 10X over to pay for treatment. We all gotta co-exist and accept each other, but hopefully in time, education will win out, acceptance of dogs as an intelligent species will win out and more people will be willing to go a bit further and educate themselves a bit better in the hopes of giving Fido a better existence.
Before anyone says anything, my dogs are property, property whom I love. I had my first dog a collie until 2 weeks short of her 15th birthday and I put her down, knowing I could buy her another year with medical intervention, knowing that was no what that dog needed, I have a ShepX with a grain allergy and lumbo sacral disease, who I paid for the MRI to diagnose, who wouldn't make it to 7 without medical intervention, he's 9 and no signs of slowing down and a Saint, who at 3, well lets just say, I am in Canada, grain-free food is $68/7.2kg - a Saint eats 5kg a week by herself and keep her from the ShepX food - not happening, I can barely keep her from stealing my food. My food bill is $300/month, vet bills, try putting a Saint under for a spay and she had a deformed paw. I pay through the teeth for my dogs, so I totally understand someone for monetary or moral reasons not paying for medical intervention. I do not think it is right, but I get it and I don't judge anyone. I didn't get that way until the Saint, I bought antibiotics for Oz once, 10 days, $30, $3/pill. A Saint requires 3 pills a day, $90 for 10 days... I made the choice to own a giant and accept it, but not everyone's pockets are as deep as mine, so I'll never judge or comment on a dog owner's choices, because I do not know if they are being cheap, are spent financially caring for the dog, view their dog as a depreciating piece of property or just plain do not care.


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## NietzschesMomma

I'm thankful I have a vet that never, in that situation, would have ever considered offering "Option #3." 

Makes me sad to read about stories like this...especially in light of the fact that I've just spent the last 36 hours dealing with an animal hoarding case-and one dog--already euthanized.


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## Dbrooke407

Springbrz said:


> Maybe a complaint of animal cruelty to your local PD or animal society is in order. If the dog is really that injured and suffering IMHO it is animal cruelty to not PTS the dog. I understand the vet can't make the owners do anything they don't want to and/or can't afford but the courts can and will intervene on the dogs behalf quickly if needed.
> Of course a call like that is totally up to you. It may bring some issue with your co-worker into the workplace that you may not want. Ultimately, this is not a good situation all the way around. I believe you are right to be angry.
> My heart lies with that poor suffering dog.


Last time I tried to report animal cruelty (watched a guy beat and kick his dog for barking when he tied it up outside a store) the police department here completely shut me down. Not only was the lady I spoke with extremely rude to me, but she told me there was nothing they could do. 


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## Dbrooke407

Gretchen said:


> This is so awful, you must feel sick. What I'm picturing is a dog who can't get up due to broken hip, brain swelling, low oxygen and confusion due to puncture lung, pain, shock and with the pain killers slowing every thing down, the dog slowly aspirating on its own blood and lying in its own waste.
> 
> Maybe someone else can paint a picture of recovery, because I can't see it.


She tried texting me about how sad she was about the whole thing and how Hurley kept trying to stand up. It took a lot not to go off on her. It made me physically ill because I'm picturing him just as you described, only now struggling to stand up and making things worse for himself. 

I'm sorry guys, it is ultimately their deduction whether or not to put him to sleep. But when the dog has severe internal bleeding and a punctured lung you can't tell me that's ok. Because it's not. Kane is my soul dog, my baby, the closest thing I'll ever have to having my own children, whatever you want to call him. But if it was him in this position, I would make the choice to put him down because to see him in the condition Hurley is in would destroy me more than having to say the words "go ahead and put him down" aloud. 


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## Dbrooke407

jang said:


> Allow me to add, I think you are feeling almost responsible because you know you could have trained this dog to not chase cars..I bet you could have..but that does not mean that the dogs humans could also have made this dog listen to them...This is not your fault in any way , shape or form...The dog got dealt a bad hand...I am sorry you are so upset by this...


I'm upset because, according to some people, I'm "overly passionate" about animals. Because it could have been prevented. Because it happened before and they still didn't want to take steps to prevent it again. And because they try to act as though they care for Hurley when they made the choices (or lack thereof) that they did.
Another trainer friend of mine told me that one day I'll learn not to take these things personally. That once I offer help and it's rejected there's nothing more I can do. And that if I focus too much on the things I couldn't have changed, I'll become depressed. But also that it'll take a while for me to get to that point because I'm only 20 and just starting out. I know she's right. But I don't have it in me to look the other way. I feel (and this is just me personally) like a hypocrite to say I'm passionate about animals but then to just shrug my shoulders and wish the best for the dog. I'm not saying that makes anybody a hypocrite, but in my mind, that's what I would be. 


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## Dbrooke407

lalachka said:


> Lol I tried staying out and maybe I should have.
> 
> I wanted to point out one more thing. The op said they don't like their dog. And then someone else commented saying 'it's already been stated that they don't like their dog'.
> 
> And you know this how? The op doesn't know and anyone here doesn't either.
> 
> The rest has been said by others already.
> 
> Leave them alone. You don't know the story.
> 
> 
> As far as vets calling AC. I hope I never get a vet like that. That's just wrong. Besides, as selzer pointed out, the vet might be wrong with his diagnosis and people should have the right to get a second opinion.
> 
> Yeah, quickness to judge always bothers me. People feel better about themselves when putting others down.


The OP does know. Not only has she told me repeatedly she dislikes her dog. But I've seen it first hand in the way he is treated. 


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## Dbrooke407

What gets me is those of y'all coming on this post talking about how I (and those that agree with me) are wrong for judging the owners. Sweetheart, that makes you as judgmental of me as you think I am of the owner. 
And to clear up any confusion, I very much like my coworker outside of her neglect to pay any attention (other than negative) to her dog. So no, I did not harbor any bad feelings towards her. Nor am I in any way trying to judge her. I must not have realized that to disagree with somebodies choice meant I was somehow placing judgement. 



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## Dainerra

Sarah~ said:


> This is what I was thinking.... The "here's some pain pills bring him back in 3 days if he lives" part was pretty alarming to me. Sounds like you are the only one speaking up for the poor thing if the vet really said that.


I know a lot of vets who would say that, sadly. It's a case of owner can't afford the surgery but won't agree to put the dog down.


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## JakodaCD OA

while I agree people have differing views on how to treat their animals , when an animal is suffering, and you can't tell me this dog is NOT suffering, thats the time an owner has to stop being selfish or cheap, whatever the reason and do whats humane for the animal.

Maybe this vet stopped taking payments from these owners because they don't pay their bill? Maybe they did NOT want to put the dog down for alot of reasons, money, didn't want to make the decision, weren't ready to do it..one can only speculate.

So whats the vet to do? The owner doesn't want surgery, doesn't want to put the dog down, what's left? 

I think the owners were very selfish bringing this dog home who HAS TO BE suffering, to mostly likely die a slow painful death.


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## Gwenhwyfair

:thumbup:

It seems to me a good vet would not counsel a client to keep a dog alive in an extreme situation.

If that's the case then I would point a finger at the vet.

I had a cat with a fatal condition. I took him in to a specialist for an ultrasound and consult before deciding what to do.

I wasn't ready to let him go 'that' day, so she sent me home with fluids and meds to keep him comfortable over the weekend, hospice care if you will. I got to hug him and love him and take a couple of days to say good bye and then we went to our regular vet to put him to sleep.

So I'm with Dani, judge not in such situations.



DaniFani said:


> I just think it's so crazy that people are more prepared to grab their pitch forks rather than considering that there may be way more to this story....maybe OP already has a tinged view of her coworker, maybe the coworker didn't translate great what the vet said, maybe OP shouldn't comment/judge something if she isn't in the room, listening to the vet and seeing the dog. ***Maybe OP is exaggerating this because she was already mad that the coworker wouldn't take her up on "training classes." It just rubs me the wrong way that a bunch of people on the internet are judging someone who never asked for or wanted their opinions, and has no idea that their story is out their for the whole internet to see......in my opinion OP and everyone else needs to mind their own business...they took the dog to the vet...a lot of people wouldn't even do that....saying someone should call AC on them!? Are you kidding me....they SAW a VET! jeesh


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## Sarah~

Yeah, they "saw a vet". That's about all they did. AC COULD do something about it, but they probably won't. So the vet calling them would just be a waste of time. I understand the wanting to spend some time with the dog before they decide to put him down, but based on what has been said it doesn't seem like they plan on that. They are perfectly content to let their dog slowly bleed out internally and die while making him somewhat comfortable. Is it hard to put your dog down? I couldn't even imagine, I've never had to do it and I hope I never have to. But this is just horrible, and IMO inhumane.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Maybe I missed it, but where is there evidence of the below in blue?

I've had to euth pets and it's a extremely difficult decision. The guilt of maybe I could have done more to save him/her or you have the guilt of did I let my pet suffer by wanting to keep him alive. It's not easy nor cut and dried. 

When I've dealt with situations of serious injury or illness I've relied on my vet(s) to provide guidance as to what level of suffering the animal maybe in. They are the ones with the education and day to day experience in dealing with animals, especially animals in pain.

A vet cannot force someone to euth their dog but they can CHOOSE which options to present. If the dog was suffering terribly the vet could have simply said, surgery or euth because your dog is suffering terribly.

I would be very upset if a vet gave me inappropriate guidance on something like this, especially to a distraught owner who at that moment in time really needs the proper guidance.





Sarah~ said:


> Yeah, they "saw a vet". That's about all they did. AC COULD do something about it, but they probably won't. So the vet calling them would just be a waste of time. I understand the wanting to spend some time with the dog before they decide to put him down, but based on what has been said it doesn't seem like they plan on that. They are perfectly content to let their dog slowly bleed out internally and die while making him somewhat comfortable. Is it hard to put your dog down? I couldn't even imagine, I've never had to do it and I hope I never have to. But this is just horrible, and IMO inhumane.


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## Sarah~

Dbrooke407 said:


> He has a broken hip, head trauma, a punctured lung, and severe internal bleeding.


From the original post. Also said the dog had a 10% chance to live, it doesn't sound very hopeful for him. I also depend on my vet, if she said my dog had a 10% chance I would probably struggle with the decision too. I can understand that kind of guilt I have some myself from my last dog that died suddenly. But based on OP's side of the story I feel like this is wrong. I haven't talked to the owner, maybe they have a good reason but I can't think of one.


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## jang

Springbrz said:


> Might I respond to criticism of my own post.
> 
> This is a Forum and by it's nature people post here looking for input, advise, opinions of others. It appears that I have inflamed the emotions of several here. It was not my intention. I was not *"Judging*" anyone. it was a *suggestion *to the OP thus my post starting with a _"maybe_". The Suggestion was just that; a suggestion based on the OP's appraisal of the situation as the OP knows it. Thus why I stated it was "totally up to you" to the OP. And I did say it was not a good situation all they way around.
> 
> I have myself had to put more than one dog down in my lifetime. I have had 2 dogs hit by cars in my lifetime as well. I am quit aware of the difficult and personal decision it is to put a pet to sleep. However, some people can't or won't make the right decision and need to have it made for them. It is part of the reason we have AC and Humane Societies. To protect animals from cruel and inhumane treatment. We take animals away from owners everyday in this country (USA) because they make them *suffer *by not feeding them enough, not giving them clean living areas, having too many pets in a confined place, etc. And more often then not the owner states they "love" their pets and just don't understand why the are being taken away. The mass's don't seem to have a problem with that...it is however in the best interest of the animal. But, I should be looked down on and *"JUDGED*" for stating that *I* feel if the OP's assessment of the situation is accurate that someone might need to intervene on behalf of a suffering dog.
> 
> I do respect the opinions of those who disagree with me. However, I will not apologize for my posted thoughts or opinions on the original post.
> 
> That said: I closed my original post by stating
> 
> My heart lies with that poor suffering dog.
> 
> Humbly,
> Terri


If it was I who upset you, I am sorry..Tough situation all around..


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## lalachka

Dbrooke407 said:


> The OP does know. Not only has she told me repeatedly she dislikes her dog. But I've seen it first hand in the way he is treated.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If you say so. So she dislikes her dog but wouldn't put him down. I wonder why. 
I'm sure you see things that we don't see so to you the story looks diff and maybe i'd agree with you on some points if I knew them. 

But you also only know what they're showing you. There might be more to it that they're not willing to show. There are people out there who can't say warm things in front of others, for example, they'll say they dislike their dog to seem tough or funny. 

Besides, if they really didn't like their dog I doubt they'd be telling people. Usually people keep those things a secret. 



On the subject of putting dogs down. I was going to say this but someone already mentioned it. 

Why is it that we don't have this attitude towards humans (put them down when they're suffering) but for animals an owner will be judged!!!! for NOT putting a dog down. 

I don't want to have to make that choice ever, I might be the one who doesn't put the dog down when others think it's time. 

I think that's a very personal decision. Others and AC should stay out of it.


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## lalachka

Dbrooke407 said:


> She tried texting me about how sad she was about the whole thing and how Hurley kept trying to stand up. It took a lot not to go off on her. It made me physically ill because I'm picturing him just as you described, only now struggling to stand up and making things worse for himself.
> 
> I'm sorry guys, it is ultimately their deduction whether or not to put him to sleep. But when the dog has severe internal bleeding and a punctured lung you can't tell me that's ok. Because it's not. Kane is my soul dog, my baby, the closest thing I'll ever have to having my own children, whatever you want to call him. But if it was him in this position, I would make the choice to put him down because to see him in the condition Hurley is in would destroy me more than having to say the words "go ahead and put him down" aloud.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


But that's you!! People are different. You'd rather see your dog dead than suffering and others would rather see their dog suffer than dead. 

This is a very complicated subject, you won't get people to agree on this because everyone is different. 
There are people who believe that any life is better than death and you won't convince them otherwise.


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## lalachka

Springbrz said:


> I'm not disagreeing with your point of view. What I am disagreeing with is the assessment that I was somehow criticizing the owners of the dog in question. And, the further assumption I was doing so, easily. Neither is true. I wasn't criticizing anyone. I feel it was a valid suggestion to the OP. The OP knows the situation better than anyone here. He/she can take my suggestion with a grain of salt as can everyone else on the forum. Or the OP can take my suggestion and act on if felt it is the appropriate thing to do. Again, it was just a suggestion to a particular situation.
> 
> So Judge me, criticize me...for I have erred and posted a suggestion to a "rant". My mistake.


You're not being 'judged, criticized' because you posted a suggestion to a 'rant' but I think you knew that. 
It's your suggestion for her to call AC that's getting people riled up. 

I think people believe that AC shouldn't have a part in telling people when to put their animals down and they resent the fact that you might be the one calling AC on them if YOU felt the dog should be put down. 



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## Gwenhwyfair

O.K. my bad. 

I did read the OP but...

Cognitive dissonance on my part because a vet that would offer the option of sending a dog home in that condition with just pain meds is very, very wrong. 

I'm not a vet but anyone involved with, or working with animals will sometimes find themselves in situations where an owner just...doesn't...want to let go of their pet.

I had to write a letter recently refusing to deal with a person whose dog IMHO was suffering and not going to get better. Good people, they just couldn't let the dog go. So the letter was polite but firm, "If you are keeping this dog alive for your sake that's the wrong reason". 

IMO whether you're a groomer, vet, breeder, trainer, boarding kennel when you see a dog is suffering with little to no hope of recovery then you should not encourage or indirectly support the continuation of suffering.






Sarah~ said:


> From the original post. Also said the dog had a 10% chance to live, it doesn't sound very hopeful for him. I also depend on my vet, if she said my dog had a 10% chance I would probably struggle with the decision too. I can understand that kind of guilt I have some myself from my last dog that died suddenly. But based on OP's side of the story I feel like this is wrong. I haven't talked to the owner, maybe they have a good reason but I can't think of one.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Very true lala.



lalachka said:


> But that's you!! People are different. You'd rather see your dog dead than suffering and others would rather see their dog suffer than dead.
> 
> This is a very complicated subject, you won't get people to agree on this because everyone is different.
> There are people who believe that any life is better than death and you won't convince them otherwise.


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## marbury

lalachka said:


> On the subject of putting dogs down. I was going to say this but someone already mentioned it.
> 
> Why is it that we don't have this attitude towards humans (put them down when they're suffering) but for animals an owner will be judged!!!! for NOT putting a dog down.


I ABSOLUTELY support human euthanasia. If I could, I would specify in my will that I MUST be peacefully let go instead of being allowed to carry on without consciousness or without significant function. I understand from a legal standpoint why it is not 'permitted' (too easy to abuse) but I still am 100% behind it.

Abuse is abuse. If someone is violently beating and starving their dog they deserve to be investigated by someone who can do something. If someone is knowingly placing their pets in extreme pain and suffering, the same is true.

You guys are all bringing up examples of pets who are not in severe distress. Broken legs, not eating for a while, parvo... those aren't conditions that are accompanied by exceptional distress. Those pets aren't drowning in their own blood and fluids, nor are they struggling with every heartbeat to stay conscious.

I'm in my job because I LOVE animals. When someone carries out their screaming, bleeding, broken, crushed, DYING animal and wants to WATCH IT DIE in their own home I have a big problem with it.

Even so, at the end of the day it's not me calling AC. I have no business interfering with client's lives or pets. They make their own choices. That's the vet's call.


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## Springbrz

lalachka said:


> On the subject of putting dogs down. I was going to say this but someone already mentioned it.
> 
> *Why is it that we don't have this attitude towards humans (put them down when they're suffering) but for animals an owner will be judged!!!! for NOT putting a dog down. *
> 
> *I don't want to have to make that choice ever*, I might be the one who doesn't put the dog down when others think it's time.
> 
> I think that's a very personal decision. Others and AC should stay out of it.


Ok: I'm going to take the leap into this very personnel matter to me related to this subject. 
First off, let my say like it or not, I believe in assisted suicide. And there are states that have very purposeful assisted suicide laws. So, we do have this attitude towards humans to an extent. The big difference is that humans can communicate their wishes in an understandable way to other humans. Dogs or any pet species can't do that so we have to try our best to understand what the animal is thinking and/or feeling. And yes, I agree that is a gray area for most of us. And a difficult and painful decision to make. 
I worked in a nursing home for several years and I held hands of dying people who looked longingly to be put out of their misery because their bodies just didn't know to give it up and quit. I listen to my own dad dying of cancer and asking my permission to let go and move on from his pain. If the state he lived in at the time would have allowed for me to help him to end his pain sooner I would have gladly but painfully done so for I loved him and it killed me to watch him stuffer. But most importantly it is what HE wanted. At the very same time, in the room done the hall, an elderly man kept coding and they were putting him and is body through what I believed was torture because his family just couldn't be selfless and let him go. 
Again, my personal view of the situation. But it says a lot when the doctors thanked me when I signed the DNR for my dad. Ask a doctor and I bet they would tell you there are many times they don't want to try to save a life because it is just prolonging the inevitable and days filled with pain and suffering for all involved. Ask vet. I'm sure they would tell you they hate putting down animals but they do so out of compassion for the animal. My vet cried with us when we had to put our last two dogs down to free them of their pain. She didn't take it lightly nor did I. Compassion ruled.
I have yet to have the experience to have a pet pass naturally in it's sleep. I'm sure if we took a poll here very few have had that happen. I'm not some young teenager, I've been around the block and have grown children. I have only met/ known two families that have had pets pass on their own._ Most of us have to make that very difficult decision to help our pets along to peace. _I believe we do so out of compassion and selfless love for our pets. And yes, sometimes we wait a little to long but in the end we do it for them, not us. 
Lalachka, I'm not judging anyone. I never was. I was simply advocating for the dog. And Sadly, I'm pretty sure* you too* will have to make this decision you don't want to make for you* are* a pet owner. 

Please understand I am not upset or mad at anyone here on the forum. I just don't like it when my compassion for a pet that can't speak for itself is deemed "JUDGING" a human in a negative way. I wasn't judging the owner of the dog. I was disagreeing with their decision and advocating for the dog. 

Selflessness is the greatest form of compassion.


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## lalachka

marbury said:


> I ABSOLUTELY support human euthanasia. If I could, I would specify in my will that I MUST be peacefully let go instead of being allowed to carry on without consciousness or without significant function. I understand from a legal standpoint why it is not 'permitted' (too easy to abuse) but I still am 100% behind it.
> 
> Abuse is abuse. If someone is violently beating and starving their dog they deserve to be investigated by someone who can do something. If someone is knowingly placing their pets in extreme pain and suffering, the same is true.
> 
> You guys are all bringing up examples of pets who are not in severe distress. Broken legs, not eating for a while, parvo... those aren't conditions that are accompanied by exceptional distress. Those pets aren't drowning in their own blood and fluids, nor are they struggling with every heartbeat to stay conscious.
> 
> I'm in my job because I LOVE animals. When someone carries out their screaming, bleeding, broken, crushed, DYING animal and wants to WATCH IT DIE in their own home I have a big problem with it.
> 
> Even so, at the end of the day it's not me calling AC. I have no business interfering with client's lives or pets. They make their own choices. That's the vet's call.


I'm going to reply more later, gotta run 

But really fast. I support human euthanasia as well, however, the difference there is that the human themselves is making the choice. 

I don't know if i support the one where the human is in a coma and relatives decide, to me this is comparable to having to decide for the dogs. 

I guess my problem is having to decide for another being when it is time for them to go. 


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## marbury

lalachka said:


> I'm going to reply more later, gotta run
> 
> But really fast. I support human euthanasia as well, however, the difference there is that the human themselves is making the choice.
> 
> I don't know if i support the one where the human is in a coma and relatives decide, to me this is comparable to having to decide for the dogs.
> 
> I guess my problem is having to decide for another being when it is time for them to go.


In some cases it is consensual. I would call that, as Springbrz said, 'assisted suicide'.


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## Springbrz

Gwenhwyfair said:


> O.K. my bad.
> 
> I did read the OP but...
> 
> Cognitive dissonance on my part because a vet that would offer the option of sending a dog home in that condition with just pain meds is very, very wrong.
> 
> I'm not a vet but anyone involved with, or working with animals will sometimes find themselves in situations where an owner just...doesn't...want to let go of their pet.
> 
> I had to write a letter recently refusing to deal with a person whose dog IMHO was suffering and not going to get better. Good people, they just couldn't let the dog go. So the letter was polite but firm, "If you are keeping this dog alive for your sake that's the wrong reason".
> 
> IMO whether you're a groomer, vet, breeder, trainer, boarding kennel when you see a dog is suffering with little to no hope of recovery then you should not encourage or indirectly support the continuation of suffering.


So let me get this straight. It's ok to say the vet should have never given the option for the dog to be taken home. Thus the vet making the decision what the owner should do for the dog. But it's not ok for anyone to get AC involved for the same reason...the dog was being forced to suffer. It's the same thing in my view. Sorry, some of you resent my point of view.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I did *NOT *make a comment wrt AC at all and I don't 'resent' you POV. It's just a bunch of people talking on the internet and drawing different conclusions.

I support my conclusion thus:

*Usually* (not always) most vets will not allow an animal that is in extreme suffering go without trying to counsel the owner to make the right decisions. I've refused to deal with people myself who weren't being realistic about their dogs health. This vet maybe in the wrong in which case he enabled this lady by giving her meds and instructions to take the dog home.

Which is a totally different matter from calling the AC.

But if you want to call the AC on a situation like this, go right ahead. No one can stop you. :shrug:

I don't know what they would do, especially in the case where the owner can prove they went to and *were released with the dog by a vet*.

It might get the vet in trouble because (depending on the state maybe some our vet tech members can clarify) they are supposed to report abuse.







Springbrz said:


> So let me get this straight. It's ok to say the vet should have never given the option for the dog to be taken home. Thus the vet making the decision what the owner should do for the dog. But it's not ok for anyone to get AC involved for the same reason...the dog was being forced to suffer. It's the same thing in my view. Sorry, some of you resent my point of view.


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## lalachka

Posted by marbury

<<<<<Abuse is abuse. If someone is violently beating and starving their dog they deserve to be investigated by someone who can do something. If someone is knowingly placing their pets in extreme pain and suffering, the same is true.>>>>>

But that's abuse. And even there people won't agree on the definition, there are those that will do things to their dogs that i'd consider abuse and I'm sure there are things I do to mine that others would (popping the prong, for example). 

Putting an animal to sleep is totally different. I don't think you can look at it from the same standpoint.

While the outcome might be the same (animal suffers) the intentions are coming from a different place. I'd say people refusing to put animals down usually do it out of love. You can argue that they're being selfish and they might be but the bottom line is that they're not doing it to be mean while abuse usually comes from the desire to make the animal suffer. 

As I'm writing this I'm realizing this is wrong, people abuse animals for all different reasons (hoarders), some are well intentioned. 

As I said, this is a tough subject and I don't think anyone should have the decision made for them. People are too different, who's to say the person making the decision has the right idea. 

Who knows what's 'right' anyway? I don't. 


Posted by marbury <<<<<<
You guys are all bringing up examples of pets who are not in severe distress. Broken legs, not eating for a while, parvo... those aren't conditions that are accompanied by exceptional distress. Those pets aren't drowning in their own blood and fluids, nor are they struggling with every heartbeat to stay conscious.>>>>>>

And still, there are people that believe that they don't get to decide when to end a life. And who's to say they're wrong?


Posted by marbury <<<<<<
I'm in my job because I LOVE animals. When someone carries out their screaming, bleeding, broken, crushed, DYING animal and wants to WATCH IT DIE in their own home I have a big problem with it.>>>>>

Yeah, YOU have a problem with it because of the way you were raised, your values, the things you've seen and everything else that makes you who you are. 

But what makes you think that your way is the only way or even the right way? Lots of our decisions are influenced by the culture we live in. People in other countries have different values and culture and would make different decisions. Are they all wrong?



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## lalachka

Posted by springbrz <<<<<
Ok: I'm going to take the leap into this very personnel matter to me related to this subject. 

First off, let my say like it or not, I believe in assisted suicide. And there are states that have very purposeful assisted suicide laws. So, we do have this attitude towards humans to an extent. The big difference is that humans can communicate their wishes in an understandable way to other humans. Dogs or any pet species can't do that so we have to try our best to understand what the animal is thinking and/or feeling. And yes, I agree that is a gray area for most of us. And a difficult and painful decision to make. 
>>>>>

Yep, that's exactly my problem. I don't have a problem with people deciding they don't want to live but I do have a problem deciding for others whether they should live or not. 
It's so individual with people, some people want to be put out of their misery and others would prefer to suffer horribly than die. 
I'd imagine it's the same with animals. 

Yep, it's a gray area and that's why I prefer to not get involved. Let everyone make their own decisions, people are so different, I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone and that's my problem with calling AC even if I MIGHT think they're doing the wrong thing. 

Who am I to decide that they're wrong and I'm right?


Posted by springbrz <<<<<<
I worked in a nursing home for several years and I held hands of dying people who looked longingly to be put out of their misery because their bodies just didn't know to give it up and quit. I listen to my own dad dying of cancer and asking my permission to let go and move on from his pain. If the state he lived in at the time would have allowed for me to help him to end his pain sooner I would have gladly but painfully done so for I loved him and it killed me to watch him stuffer. But most importantly it is what HE wanted. At the very same time, in the room done the hall, an elderly man kept coding and they were putting him and is body through what I believed was torture because his family just couldn't be selfless and let him go. 

Again, my personal view of the situation. But it says a lot when the doctors thanked me when I signed the DNR for my dad. Ask a doctor and I bet they would tell you there are many times they don't want to try to save a life because it is just prolonging the inevitable and days filled with pain and suffering for all involved. Ask vet. I'm sure they would tell you they hate putting down animals but they do so out of compassion for the animal. My vet cried with us when we had to put our last two dogs down to free them of their pain. She didn't take it lightly nor did I. Compassion ruled.>>>>>>


And again, doctors and vets, are first and foremost people, with their own upbringing, experiences, views, beliefs and whatever it is that makes us who we are. Also, they have a profession where they're forced to deal with death and suffering so i'd say they have a skewed view of the subject (not wrong, skewed) and i'd say they'd make the decision easier than someone else. 

I'm just stating this, I'm not judging them for doing it. 
So I don't think their view can be taken over anyone else's just because they're doctors and vets. 

Again, they're just people with experiences that others don't have and of course that gives them a different perspective. 

Do you understand where I'm going with this? No one knows for sure what the right thing to do is. To every person the right thing to do will be based on who they are and what experiences they had in life. 

No one is right and no one is wrong. We are different. 


Posted by springbrz <<<<<
I have yet to have the experience to have a pet pass naturally in it's sleep. I'm sure if we took a poll here very few have had that happen. I'm not some young teenager, I've been around the block and have grown children. I have only met/ known two families that have had pets pass on their own. Most of us have to make that very difficult decision to help our pets along to peace. I believe we do so out of compassion and selfless love for our pets. And yes, sometimes we wait a little to long but in the end we do it for them, not us. 

Lalachka, I'm not judging anyone. I never was. I was simply advocating for the dog. And Sadly, I'm pretty sure you too will have to make this decision you don't want to make for you are a pet owner. >>>>

I already had to make that decision but I believe with my dog it will be a much harder one and a totally different experience. 

I had to put one of my cats down a little while ago. She wasn't 'my' cat, she was mean, we didn't have a connection. When I finally decided to put her down I had to go downstairs from work for hours and just balled. 

I don't cry almost at all, not even once a year, like really rarely. So if putting down a cat that I 'didn't like' was this hard I don't know how i'd handle my dog. 

Also, she died alone, my daughter couldn't stick around. I'm not judging her either. I do have a guilt trip because of it but I don't know if I could've been there with her watching her die and again, she wasn't even my favorite cat. 

While I love my cats, having a dog is a totally different experience. I have such a connection to him that I'm surprised at myself. 

Yeah, I dread the day. And I'm definitely not judging anyone lacking the whatever it is to make the decision. I'm also not judging anyone making the decision even if I think I wouldn't do it in their case. 


Posted by springbrz <<<<<<
Please understand I am not upset or mad at anyone here on the forum. I just don't like it when my compassion for a pet that can't speak for itself is deemed "JUDGING" a human in a negative way. I wasn't judging the owner of the dog. I was disagreeing with their decision and advocating for the dog. 

Selflessness is the greatest form of compassion.>>>>>

Disagreeing with their decision is fine. Advocating for calling AC (assuming this means you'd call AC on someone that didn't put their dog down if YOU thought it was time) is not. 

About selflessness, again, to every person this will mean a different thing. This is too complex of a subject for everyone to feel the same about it. 


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## lalachka

Springbrz said:


> So let me get this straight. It's ok to say the vet should have never given the option for the dog to be taken home. Thus the vet making the decision what the owner should do for the dog. But it's not ok for anyone to get AC involved for the same reason...the dog was being forced to suffer. It's the same thing in my view. Sorry, some of you resent my point of view.


It doesn't matter what options the vet gives you, the '3rd' option is always there, whether he says it out loud or not


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## Gwenhwyfair

Exactly.

It's definitely a grey type of area and I've personally had to deal with it. I deal with it by not doing anything that directly or indirectly supports the suffering of an animal. Except for extreme circumstances I don't think a vet can force someone to euth a dog. They can help them make better decisions by 'not' supporting them in making the wrong one...if that makes sense?







lalachka said:


> It doesn't matter what options the vet gives you, the '3rd' option is always there, whether he says it out loud or not
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Chantald

Dbrooke407 said:


> I'm upset because, according to some people, I'm "overly passionate" about animals. Because it could have been prevented. Because it happened before and they still didn't want to take steps to prevent it again. And because they try to act as though they care for Hurley when they made the choices (or lack thereof) that they did.
> Another trainer friend of mine told me that one day I'll learn not to take these things personally. That once I offer help and it's rejected there's nothing more I can do. And that if I focus too much on the things I couldn't have changed, I'll become depressed. But also that it'll take a while for me to get to that point because I'm only 20 and just starting out. I know she's right. But I don't have it in me to look the other way. I feel (and this is just me personally) like a hypocrite to say I'm passionate about animals but then to just shrug my shoulders and wish the best for the dog. I'm not saying that makes anybody a hypocrite, but in my mind, that's what I would be.


Based on this quote, Just know, you will slowly learn to take things like this less personally, and that's a good thing because it will preserve your sanity. I'm not in a profession working with dogs, I'm in a profession where I work with people, and as a social worker, I see people make decisions all the time that are not necessarily my idea of what's the best option. But the reality is that they aren't my decisions to make, and that my clients have a right to self-determination and that I still must treat them with unconditional positive regard. I would on occasion get frustrated when I had clients who would complain about their addictions, but would not go to detox/treatment, or would skip out of the detox unit after 3 days because their money came in and they wanted to go use. 

But that's the nature of dealing with people. They will make all sorts of decisions you don't agree with, but you can't carry the weight of their decisions on your shoulders without making yourself sick in the process. With time, you will handle these situations better, but you also need to find ways of coping that are healthy. I personally find a dark sense of humour works well.

I do feel for this pooch, and it's sad to hear the story. And talk about end of life can be a very polarizing issue, but I do appreciate all the comments people have posted.




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## Springbrz

lalachka you stated: _Disagreeing with their decision is fine. Advocating for calling AC (assuming this means you'd call AC on someone that didn't put their dog down if YOU thought it was time) is not. _

Please find one of my posts where *I *said *I *would call AC. I will say this one last time: 
*I only offered it as a possible option to the op as a suggestion if the op felt the situation warranted it: *

Opinions and suggestions are offered in posts here all the time by nature of the almighty thread. IE: what breeder should I use: what dog food should I feed: should I get a working line or show line : Tell if my x-rays look bad: How will I know it's time to say goodbye. 
Everyone here is guilty of interjecting their beliefs into the lives of those who post. It is the nature of a Forum. Right or wrong at the end of the day OP decides what weight they give to what they read.

That said: It was a freaking thought; an option...*NOT A MANDATE!*

GEEZ...hands in the air

:surrender: 
Goodbye


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## selzer

I think it is a sad situation and hard to think about. 

When others were suggesting calling AC on the people I rebelled on that thought because the people did take the dog to the vet, and they made a decision. 

I think of calling AC on someone the same way parents think about calling child protective services on someone. If you are seeing a child getting their teeth knocked out, or burning to death in a car, you need to call someone, but when you see a parent discipline a child differently to what you think is appropriate, you have to look past what just making a call will do. Sometimes children are removed from a home pending investigation, and put in a care facility or a foster home, where they are confused and sometimes mistreated. Most of the time CPS is criticized for not doing enough, except when they are criticized for over reacting. 

I feel the same way about calling in Animal Control for cases of abuse. It has to be clearly abuse -- no gray area for me to go forward with such a thing, and even then, I have to wonder if the dog seems fine, is this just a bad day. I am not confident that a complete stranger will come in with common sense and without prejudice and make a decision for a critter and its people. Maybe their are people who need help in making that decision. That's sad, but I think it is worse to force people to make a decision on a critter that they have been caring for sufficiently. 

Being allowed to fight for life and maybe not make it, doesn't sound any worse than being gassed with a bunch of other dogs in a pound. And I do believe in putting a critter down rather than letting it suffer. The vet said 10% chance though. As for internal bleeding, I am sure that the truck that shattered Frodo's big bone in his leg might have also caused some internal bleeding. And yes, they gave me pain pills for him. 

We have to make decisions for our critters. If it were not so, then a lot of people would be even less likely to go to the vet. The vet is our partner, not the decision maker.


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## DaniFani

selzer said:


> I think it is a sad situation and hard to think about.
> 
> When others were suggesting calling AC on the people I rebelled on that thought because the people did take the dog to the vet, and they made a decision.
> 
> I think of calling AC on someone the same way parents think about calling child protective services on someone. If you are seeing a child getting their teeth knocked out, or burning to death in a car, you need to call someone, but when you see a parent discipline a child differently to what you think is appropriate, you have to look past what just making a call will do. Sometimes children are removed from a home pending investigation, and put in a care facility or a foster home, where they are confused and sometimes mistreated. Most of the time CPS is criticized for not doing enough, except when they are criticized for over reacting.
> 
> I feel the same way about calling in Animal Control for cases of abuse. It has to be clearly abuse -- no gray area for me to go forward with such a thing, and even then, I have to wonder if the dog seems fine, is this just a bad day. I am not confident that a complete stranger will come in with common sense and without prejudice and make a decision for a critter and its people. Maybe their are people who need help in making that decision. That's sad, but I think it is worse to force people to make a decision on a critter that they have been caring for sufficiently.
> 
> Being allowed to fight for life and maybe not make it, doesn't sound any worse than being gassed with a bunch of other dogs in a pound. And I do believe in putting a critter down rather than letting it suffer. The vet said 10% chance though. As for internal bleeding, I am sure that the truck that shattered Frodo's big bone in his leg might have also caused some internal bleeding. And yes, they gave me pain pills for him.
> 
> We have to make decisions for our critters. If it were not so, then a lot of people would be even less likely to go to the vet. * The vet is our partner, not the decision maker.*


Love this quote. And once again, ditto to your post.


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## lalachka

Springbrz said:


> lalachka you stated: _Disagreeing with their decision is fine. Advocating for calling AC (assuming this means you'd call AC on someone that didn't put their dog down if YOU thought it was time) is not. _
> 
> Please find one of my posts where *I *said *I *would call AC. I will say this one last time:
> *I only offered it as a possible option to the op as a suggestion if the op felt the situation warranted it: *
> 
> Opinions and suggestions are offered in posts here all the time by nature of the almighty thread. IE: what breeder should I use: what dog food should I feed: should I get a working line or show line : Tell if my x-rays look bad: How will I know it's time to say goodbye.
> Everyone here is guilty of interjecting their beliefs into the lives of those who post. It is the nature of a Forum. Right or wrong at the end of the day OP decides what weight they give to what they read.
> 
> That said: It was a freaking thought; an option...*NOT A MANDATE!*
> 
> GEEZ...hands in the air
> 
> :surrender:
> Goodbye


I'm not attacking you. If you suggested it then I think it's logical to assume that this is something you'd do yourself. 

If I'm wrong then I apologize


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## Gwenhwyfair

Just curious, does anyone know if a vet can legally override an owner's decision to not euth, especially in cases where the dog is clearly suffering?


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## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Just curious, does anyone know if a vet can legally override an owner's decision to not euth, especially in cases where the dog is clearly suffering?


I would venture to say the vet can't do anything...as someone stated earlier, an animal is considered property....especially if the pain is being managed by pain meds, I don't think you can do much....if some vet tried to keep my animal, even in this situation, I would have the cops there in a second and I would bet a lot of money the cops would make the vet give me my dog back....no vet is going to want a confrontation, with police, etc.....They sent the people home with pain meds....managing the dog's *pain*....I don't know if any of you have ever been on pain management medications before, but there are some strong ones that,for the most part, work.....And if the vets figured out their was internal bleeding, shattered bones, and a punctured lung...well they did testing and that all costs money....more money than putting a dog down....if the owners hated the dog and didn't have money, they would have had the dog put down right away (imo). 

OP, like I said, focus your passion/compassion into people that actually want it.....you'll do a lot better in life than getting yourself all worked up over other people's decisions and business that isn't yours.....and yes, this was a rant...a rant that had nothing to do with OP....it's one thing to complain about a co worker doing something that directly effects you, but this doesn't....yes it's sad, no matter how you slice it....but creating an internet post, pouring someone's business out that doesn't concern or effect you (except emotionally I guess), is something that makes me scratch my head and want to defend the person that isn't here to defend themselves.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yeah, I can imagine it would be quite a scene, very unpleasant scene at that.

The reason I asked is a person I know personally had a case where an old dog was dying from cancer. Long story short finally on behalf (and with permission) of the owners she contacted the vet to come out and euth the dog. Upon arrival the vet said, because the dog was in such poor condition and clearly suffering, had the people brought the dog in he would have had to report it as cruelty.

So that made me wonder how much are vets on the hook when they know a dog is suffering, even if they can mask some of the suffering with pain meds? If they let a dog go knowing it's in such extremely bad condition are they then liable for not reporting it as cruelty? 

....and maybe that's why the vet let her go with pain meds, to avoid such problems regarding his actions.

(in blue fair point)




DaniFani said:


> I would venture to say the vet can't do anything...as someone stated earlier, an animal is considered property....especially if the pain is being managed by pain meds, I don't think you can do much....if some vet tried to keep my animal, even in this situation, I would have the cops there in a second and I would bet a lot of money the cops would make the vet give me my dog back....no vet is going to want a confrontation, with police, etc.....They sent the people home with pain meds....managing the dog's *pain*....I don't know if any of you have ever been on pain management medications before, but there are some strong ones that,for the most part, work.....And if the vets figured out their was internal bleeding, shattered bones, and a punctured lung...well they did testing and that all costs money....more money than putting a dog down....if the owners hated the dog and didn't have money, they would have had the dog put down right away (imo).
> 
> <snipped>.


----------



## DaniFani

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yeah, I can imagine it would be quite a scene, very unpleasant scene at that.
> 
> The reason I asked is a person I know personally had a case where an old dog was dying from cancer. Long story short finally on behalf (and with permission) of the owners she contacted the vet to come out and euth the dog. Upon arrival the vet said, because the dog was in such poor condition and clearly suffering, had the people brought the dog in he would have had to report it as cruelty.
> 
> So that made me wonder how much are vets on the hook when they know a dog is suffering, even if they can mask some of the suffering with pain meds? If they let a dog go knowing it's in such extremely bad condition are they then liable for not reporting it as cruelty?
> 
> ....and maybe that's why the vet let her go with pain meds, to avoid such problems regarding his actions.
> 
> (in blue fair point)


Yeah, who knows, the vet could have reported the owners...probably not, but reporting and sticking your neck out or not letting them take their dog are two very different things. Your friend's vet could have also said that to ease their minds about putting their dog down (ex: "you are doing the right thing, this dog is definitely suffering, so much so that if you were someone else insisting on keeping this dog alive I may have even had to report it as cruelty.")

This makes me think of something un-dog related....we had a local car repair place that was running free brake checks...they had the police called on them multiple times because they weren't letting people take their cars home because they said the brakes were so bad they would be liable if the person got into an accident, and were trying to force people to get their brakes changed...and you guessed it..pay a premium price for it too.....the officers threatened to arrest the shop owner after multiple calls, stating theft because he was not letting people take their cars(property)...it was a scam. It just makes me wonder how many people paid for the over-priced brake change because they just wanted their car back...obviously this is way way different than a living breathing animal...but when it comes to people's "property" I doubt any cases are going to stick unless they are like Selzer described....and even a lot of those cases go un-charged.


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## marbury

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Just curious, does anyone know if a vet can legally override an owner's decision to not euth, especially in cases where the dog is clearly suffering?


At least in our clinic, we cannot do a thing about overriding an owner without consent. We can't even euthanize an injured animal abandoned in our parking lot. It HAS to be surrendered to AC before any action can be taken, and the action is taken by the local AC.

There are two different types of owners we deal with, and this must be distinct and understood:

1) Those who love their pet and want to take a chance that they'll recover and make it through or want to do as much as they can with the finances they have to help ease their pet's suffering, even if they cannot afford treatment or euthanasia procedures.
2) Those that are financially or emotionally unwilling to support their animal's continued care or euthanasia.

In the case of clients in the first category, I doubt ANYONE would ever call AC on them. They're clearly suffering, their pet is clearly important to them, and it is not out of conscious neglect that they make their choice. They need the time they need with their pet. I don't always agree with their choices, but I understand them and will probably be the same when it comes time for mine. In the second category, they'd rather take the dog home and let it die than spend 'another penny' on it. At the end of the day, they can walk out and there is nothing we can do about it. Some folks bring in their practically-DOA dog and argue a discounted exam 'just to see if there's any hope'. We do a free exam and offer discounted euthanasia, do anything we can to convince them that their old dog is ready to go, but they just don't want to spend the money. We carry their immobile dog back to their truck and they drive home. When we call to check up, it's dead. They don't have AC called. The ones that are called are the ones that bring up a critically injured pet in severe pain that refuse TX and euth. Rare. Usually hit by cars or dog fights, we had one with a SNAPPED NECK from a falling tree that went home untreated, screaming and bubbling blood from nose and mouth all the way in and all the way out.
IMO, the vet probably counseled the owners that the best and kindest option was euthanasia. When the owners just couldn't deal with it, they wanted to do anything and everything in their power to at least make sure that the pet was not suffering. So they sent it, with resentment, out the door with pain pills and a sad shake of the head knowing exactly what would happen.


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## Gwenhwyfair

good night...that last story literally made my stomach turn. I cannot imagine having to witness things like that. 

Thank you for answering my question so well, I appreciate it.




marbury said:


> At least in our clinic, we cannot do a thing about overriding an owner without consent. We can't even euthanize an injured animal abandoned in our parking lot. It HAS to be surrendered to AC before any action can be taken, and the action is taken by the local AC.
> 
> There are two different types of owners we deal with, and this must be distinct and understood:
> 
> 1) Those who love their pet and want to take a chance that they'll recover and make it through or want to do as much as they can with the finances they have to help ease their pet's suffering, even if they cannot afford treatment or euthanasia procedures.
> 2) Those that are financially or emotionally unwilling to support their animal's continued care or euthanasia.
> 
> In the case of clients in the first category, I doubt ANYONE would ever call AC on them. They're clearly suffering, their pet is clearly important to them, and it is not out of conscious neglect that they make their choice. They need the time they need with their pet. I don't always agree with their choices, but I understand them and will probably be the same when it comes time for mine. In the second category, they'd rather take the dog home and let it die than spend 'another penny' on it. At the end of the day, they can walk out and there is nothing we can do about it. Some folks bring in their practically-DOA dog and argue a discounted exam 'just to see if there's any hope'. We do a free exam and offer discounted euthanasia, do anything we can to convince them that their old dog is ready to go, but they just don't want to spend the money. We carry their immobile dog back to their truck and they drive home. When we call to check up, it's dead. They don't have AC called. The ones that are called are the ones that bring up a critically injured pet in severe pain that refuse TX and euth. Rare. Usually hit by cars or dog fights, we had one with a SNAPPED NECK from a falling tree that went home untreated, screaming and bubbling blood from nose and mouth all the way in and all the way out.
> IMO, the vet probably counseled the owners that the best and kindest option was euthanasia. When the owners just couldn't deal with it, they wanted to do anything and everything in their power to at least make sure that the pet was not suffering. So they sent it, with resentment, out the door with pain pills and a sad shake of the head knowing exactly what would happen.


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## selzer

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Just curious, does anyone know if a vet can legally override an owner's decision to not euth, especially in cases where the dog is clearly suffering?


I don't know if legally they can. What a vet _can_ do is take a few minutes and say, "look, Fido, is suffering. I have done what I can for him. He isn't going to get better. The best thing we can do is stop him from suffering. I know this is hard, I know you love your pet, you really don't want for him to suffer?"

When I had Monster Kitty. He had a spinal disease that was removed his ability to move at all. The last time I went in, he wasn't getting any better, the vet told me to bring him back when I was ready. I was carrying him to the litter box and cleaning him afterwards, and finally I realized that he was such a clean kitty that he was not taking care of himself, that had to be an indication that he was just miserable. I took him in the next morning. 

People do not keep an animal alive to watch it suffer. Sometimes we have to come to a place where we accept that the animal will not get better or is suffering and is better off dead. I can see how some people feel that is playing God. 

No matter what we will feel guilt after the fact, guilt that we put the animal down too soon, did not do enought, or guilt that we waited too long or both. And sometimes if you try to influence that decision by any means, people will dig in and hold on. I would not want to add to someone's grief, by involving an agency that will likely do nothing (in this case), but it would still be a blow to think that someone called AC on them.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Interesting, in blue I made a similar comment earlier in this thread that you probably didn't see but that just means we are on the same page.....about the guilt. Also faced a similar situation with a Siamese kitty. I knew what needed to be done but just needed time to say good bye over the weekend and brought him in on that Monday to PTS.

Nice post Sue, I agree.





selzer said:


> I don't know if legally they can. What a vet _can_ do is take a few minutes and say, "look, Fido, is suffering. I have done what I can for him. He isn't going to get better. The best thing we can do is stop him from suffering. I know this is hard, I know you love your pet, you really don't want for him to suffer?"
> 
> When I had Monster Kitty. He had a spinal disease that was removed his ability to move at all. The last time I went in, he wasn't getting any better, the vet told me to bring him back when I was ready. I was carrying him to the litter box and cleaning him afterwards, and finally I realized that he was such a clean kitty that he was not taking care of himself, that had to be an indication that he was just miserable. I took him in the next morning.
> 
> People do not keep an animal alive to watch it suffer. Sometimes we have to come to a place where we accept that the animal will not get better or is suffering and is better off dead. I can see how some people feel that is playing God.
> 
> No matter what we will feel guilt after the fact, guilt that we put the animal down too soon, did not do enought, or guilt that we waited too long or both. And sometimes if you try to influence that decision by any means, people will dig in and hold on. I would not want to add to someone's grief, by involving an agency that will likely do nothing (in this case), but it would still be a blow to think that someone called AC on them.


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## Springbrz

Last Post:

DBrooke407 I apologize for your thread being "hijacked"


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## Dbrooke407

lalachka said:


> If you say so. So she dislikes her dog but wouldn't put him down. I wonder why.
> I'm sure you see things that we don't see so to you the story looks diff and maybe i'd agree with you on some points if I knew them.
> 
> But you also only know what they're showing you. There might be more to it that they're not willing to show. There are people out there who can't say warm things in front of others, for example, they'll say they dislike their dog to seem tough or funny.
> 
> Besides, if they really didn't like their dog I doubt they'd be telling people. Usually people keep those things a secret.
> 
> 
> 
> On the subject of putting dogs down. I was going to say this but someone already mentioned it.
> 
> Why is it that we don't have this attitude towards humans (put them down when they're suffering) but for animals an owner will be judged!!!! for NOT putting a dog down.
> 
> I don't want to have to make that choice ever, I might be the one who doesn't put the dog down when others think it's time.
> 
> I think that's a very personal decision. Others and AC should stay out of it.


Yet again, you're trying to tell me how I'm most likely wrong, but you're wrong on all accounts with your guessing what kind of person she is when I KNOW what kind of person she is. 


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## doggiedad

you would have chosen what you you could afford. because you're
there petting your dog when it's being pts doesn't mean it's not
enduring any pain.

your friends sound like they're irresponsible dog owners that can't
afford the best for their dog.



Dbrooke407 said:


> I am in desperate need to rant to a group of people that won't just think of me as a ridiculously crazy dog chick.
> Today at work, one of my coworkers came off her break looking like she was about to cry. I asked what's wrong and she told me her GSD, Hurley, had just been hit by a car and that her vet wouldn't see him because they didn't want to work out a payment plan (which is all she can afford). Long story short, her bf calls and curses them out and they said to bring the dog in. He has a broken hip, head trauma, a punctured lung, and severe internal bleeding. With only a 10% survival rate, they gave my coworker and her bf 3 options:
> 1) put the dog to sleep,
> 2) put the dog through expensive surgeries he likely won't even survive, or
> 3) take Hurley home with a bottle if painkillers.
> They chose option 3. The vet said if he's still alive in 3 days to bring him back.
> It may just be me,
> 
> >>>>> but I would NEVER have chosen option 3 with that small of a survival rate and THAT many SEVERE injuries. I would have either made a dang way to pay for the surgery or have him put to sleep with me standing there gently petting him so that he won't have to endure any pain. <<<<<
> 
> 
> But no, they decided that even thought hey don't like the dog, they want to keep him around and hang on to that tiny 10 percent.
> 
> What REALLY burns my hide is that I am in the process of getting my Dog Obedience Trainer certification and offered her FREE help to get Hurley to stop breaking out of their yard and chasing cars down a freaking highway. But they didn't care enough about Hurley to accept my FREAKING FREE HELP.
> I told her if he lives I'd be more than happy to help stop this terrible car chasing habit and she STILL didn't want to bother with it simply because they don't feel like putting in the time it would take to break the habit.
> 
> I realize that I'm extremely passionate about animals and a lot of people just aren't. But I can't even handle this level of sheer cruelty to bring him home and (according to my coworker) let him try to walk around with a miserable expression on his face.
> 
> So many times she has called him a bad dog and I just wanted to tell her that there's no such thing as a bad dog, it's a bad dog owner.
> 
> RAFHHHGAJSNJWS.
> 
> Sorry, I know it's long but the only friend I have that would even remotely understand my frustrations would start crying and I don't feel like making them cry.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer

I've worked with people for 12 years, and I don't know that I truly know them. 

You knew this dog had a problem chasing cars. So this terrible accident wasn't the only time she has talked about her dog. Usually people who truly do not care about their dog don't waste time talking about them at work. 

They usually do not pay for a lot of tests and the fail to put the animal down when the dog is not likely to get better without a whole lot of pain, effort, and expense on the owner's part.


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## Dbrooke407

Springbrz said:


> Ok: I'm going to take the leap into this very personnel matter to me related to this subject.
> First off, let my say like it or not, I believe in assisted suicide. And there are states that have very purposeful assisted suicide laws. So, we do have this attitude towards humans to an extent. The big difference is that humans can communicate their wishes in an understandable way to other humans. Dogs or any pet species can't do that so we have to try our best to understand what the animal is thinking and/or feeling. And yes, I agree that is a gray area for most of us. And a difficult and painful decision to make.
> I worked in a nursing home for several years and I held hands of dying people who looked longingly to be put out of their misery because their bodies just didn't know to give it up and quit. I listen to my own dad dying of cancer and asking my permission to let go and move on from his pain. If the state he lived in at the time would have allowed for me to help him to end his pain sooner I would have gladly but painfully done so for I loved him and it killed me to watch him stuffer. But most importantly it is what HE wanted. At the very same time, in the room done the hall, an elderly man kept coding and they were putting him and is body through what I believed was torture because his family just couldn't be selfless and let him go.
> Again, my personal view of the situation. But it says a lot when the doctors thanked me when I signed the DNR for my dad. Ask a doctor and I bet they would tell you there are many times they don't want to try to save a life because it is just prolonging the inevitable and days filled with pain and suffering for all involved. Ask vet. I'm sure they would tell you they hate putting down animals but they do so out of compassion for the animal. My vet cried with us when we had to put our last two dogs down to free them of their pain. She didn't take it lightly nor did I. Compassion ruled.
> I have yet to have the experience to have a pet pass naturally in it's sleep. I'm sure if we took a poll here very few have had that happen. I'm not some young teenager, I've been around the block and have grown children. I have only met/ known two families that have had pets pass on their own._ Most of us have to make that very difficult decision to help our pets along to peace. _I believe we do so out of compassion and selfless love for our pets. And yes, sometimes we wait a little to long but in the end we do it for them, not us.
> Lalachka, I'm not judging anyone. I never was. I was simply advocating for the dog. And Sadly, I'm pretty sure* you too* will have to make this decision you don't want to make for you* are* a pet owner.
> 
> Please understand I am not upset or mad at anyone here on the forum. I just don't like it when my compassion for a pet that can't speak for itself is deemed "JUDGING" a human in a negative way. I wasn't judging the owner of the dog. I was disagreeing with their decision and advocating for the dog.
> 
> Selflessness is the greatest form of compassion.


Thank you. My intentions weren't to judge the owners. They still aren't. Doesn't change the fact that I'm upset the dog is suffering though. 


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## Dbrooke407

Chantald said:


> Based on this quote, Just know, you will slowly learn to take things like this less personally, and that's a good thing because it will preserve your sanity. I'm not in a profession working with dogs, I'm in a profession where I work with people, and as a social worker, I see people make decisions all the time that are not necessarily my idea of what's the best option. But the reality is that they aren't my decisions to make, and that my clients have a right to self-determination and that I still must treat them with unconditional positive regard. I would on occasion get frustrated when I had clients who would complain about their addictions, but would not go to detox/treatment, or would skip out of the detox unit after 3 days because their money came in and they wanted to go use.
> 
> But that's the nature of dealing with people. They will make all sorts of decisions you don't agree with, but you can't carry the weight of their decisions on your shoulders without making yourself sick in the process. With time, you will handle these situations better, but you also need to find ways of coping that are healthy. I personally find a dark sense of humour works well.
> 
> I do feel for this pooch, and it's sad to hear the story. And talk about end of life can be a very polarizing issue, but I do appreciate all the comments people have posted.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Like I said, I know my trainer friend is completely right. As are you about me learning not to take things so personally. But is also recognize that it'll take time for me to get to that point. The burden I feel knowing I could've at least TRIED to help the dog can't be turned off. Over time I know the burden of such things will lessen, but right now it just won't happen. 


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## sparra

So its been....what.....coming up 48hrs or so since the OP......so how is the dog at this point?


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## Dbrooke407

Springbrz said:


> Last Post:
> 
> DBrooke407 I apologize for your thread being "hijacked"


Where I live, everybody around here is a hick and they believe that hitting and kicking dogs is how to train them. Most of them at least believe in shooting the dog themselves to put it out of its misery. I recognize people have different ways of doing things. To each their own, truly. But I'm completely alone in my thinking around here. I believe in Positive Reinforcement and Negative Punishment. I believe in flea and heartworm preventatives. I believe in doing my utmost best to keep my dog out of harms way. You get the point. I thought maybe I could express my frustrations at the fact the dog is suffering to death on this forum and find some like-minded people. But it just seems that most people on this forum want their opinions respected without having to show respect of somebody else's. Everybody wants to play the Devil's Advocate and tell me I don't know the whole story and should consider this or that when in fact his owner is still texting me about the situation. But now I know and I won't make a mistake like trying to get a rant off my chest again. This whole thing has turned even more ridiculous than I thought the original situation already was. If I wasn't upset about the whole thing before, I certainly am now. 


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## Dbrooke407

sparra said:


> So its been....what.....coming up 48hrs or so since the OP......so how is the dog at this point?


She asked my boss to leave 2 hours early yesterday to put Hurley down. When I texted her today she said he was still alive and she was calling the vet to see what steps need to be taken from this point. That's the last I've heard. She'll probably text me about what the vet says tomorrow. 


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## NietzschesMomma

State laws vary. but in many, if a licensed DVM knows-and will stand by the fact that the animal is suffering...terribly...and needs to be PTS, they can call the authorities. A DVM can legally hold a dog if cruelty is at issue, and allowing unbelievable suffering-very well can fall under cruelty laws. Not something a vet enjoys doing, but I've seen it happen once. Once an animal control officer showed up....the owner...who was going to take a HBC dog home that was in agony...(Leg torn off, head trauma, refused euth although the poor dog could NEVER recover from head injuries) but still alive...quickly did a 180---and "made the decision" to have the dog PTS. I was SO glad to see that happen....that poor dog...would have lingered in agony-for who knows how long-and that's just not fair. 




selzer said:


> I don't know if legally they can. What a vet _can_ do is take a few minutes and say, "look, Fido, is suffering. I have done what I can for him. He isn't going to get better. The best thing we can do is stop him from suffering. I know this is hard, I know you love your pet, you really don't want for him to suffer?"
> 
> When I had Monster Kitty. He had a spinal disease that was removed his ability to move at all. The last time I went in, he wasn't getting any better, the vet told me to bring him back when I was ready. I was carrying him to the litter box and cleaning him afterwards, and finally I realized that he was such a clean kitty that he was not taking care of himself, that had to be an indication that he was just miserable. I took him in the next morning.
> 
> People do not keep an animal alive to watch it suffer. Sometimes we have to come to a place where we accept that the animal will not get better or is suffering and is better off dead. I can see how some people feel that is playing God.
> 
> No matter what we will feel guilt after the fact, guilt that we put the animal down too soon, did not do enought, or guilt that we waited too long or both. And sometimes if you try to influence that decision by any means, people will dig in and hold on. I would not want to add to someone's grief, by involving an agency that will likely do nothing (in this case), but it would still be a blow to think that someone called AC on them.


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## lalachka

Dbrooke407 said:


> Yet again, you're trying to tell me how I'm most likely wrong, but you're wrong on all accounts with your guessing what kind of person she is when I KNOW what kind of person she is.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I did say that you might see things we don't see and if I knew her IRL i might agree with you on some points. 

But I'm still saying that they're only showing you what they want to show you. 
No one knows what they really feel. Things can look one way and be the opposite in reality. 


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## Chantald

Dbrooke407 said:


> Like I said, I know my trainer friend is completely right. As are you about me learning not to take things so personally. But is also recognize that it'll take time for me to get to that point. The burden I feel knowing I could've at least TRIED to help the dog can't be turned off. Over time I know the burden of such things will lessen, but right now it just won't happen.


Absolutely! And you have every right to feel the way you do about the situation. It will hurt for a long time, and you'll always feel like you could have done more. But you did offer your help, and unfortunately that is all you could do. But it will get easier as time goes on, and as new situations like this occur, it will get easier to handle. 

I'm only 25 and I have already lost probably over 20 clients with whom I had built relationships, intervened and prevented two suicide attempts, prevented an opiate overdose, and found a persons dead body! Its still not easy for me, but it's a lot easier than it was when I first started in the field. Keep focussing your efforts on the people and dogs who are willing to take your help. You sound like a really caring person.



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## Dbrooke407

Chantald said:


> Absolutely! And you have every right to feel the way you do about the situation. It will hurt for a long time, and you'll always feel like you could have done more. But you did offer your help, and unfortunately that is all you could do. But it will get easier as time goes on, and as new situations like this occur, it will get easier to handle.
> 
> I'm only 25 and I have already lost probably over 20 clients with whom I had built relationships, intervened and prevented two suicide attempts, prevented an opiate overdose, and found a persons dead body! Its still not easy for me, but it's a lot easier than it was when I first started in the field. Keep focussing your efforts on the people and dogs who are willing to take your help. You sound like a really caring person.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you! That does make me feel better. My friend also said that it helps to tell the people (after having your offer for help shot down) to don't speak to you about the dog ever again. They don't want the help, they don't get to talk about the "problematic" dog. So I'll probably try that next time. Although I'm not sure it would work in your field! 


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## Chantald

Dbrooke407 said:


> Thank you! That does make me feel better. My friend also said that it helps to tell the people (after having your offer for help shot down) to don't speak to you about the dog ever again. They don't want the help, they don't get to talk about the "problematic" dog. So I'll probably try that next time. Although I'm not sure it would work in your field!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's absolutely acceptable to enforce boundaries about what you are and aren't willing to discuss with people. Don't feel bad about saying that you can not continue a conversation.  I would use a response along the lines of "we have already had this conversation. I presented you with options and you chose not to act on them, so I don't feel we need to continue this discussion, unless it's in relation to the options I presented you with earlier". That will limit the emotional toll on you and help you enforce boundaries in how you relate to people who aren't willing to take your advice. 


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## lalachka

Really? So if I don't take your advice then I can't talk to you about that problem?

I mean, whatever works for you. I don't have friends like that and I wouldn't blackmail anyone this way into taking my advice either but to each his own. 

Also, many times people are not looking for advice, they just want to vent.


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## selzer

I think we also need to realize that not everyone is going to accept us as an authority on dog training, and take our advice. We shouldn't get mad at people for not taking our advice. Evenso, if the person continued to tell you how the dog was suffering, I think I would tell the person, that I just can't hear any more about this, I am sorry. 

Severe accidents are worse in a way than illnesses. With illnesses, a dog degenerates, and we have time to come to that place where we realized the dog isn't going to get better and we should help it onward. With a severe accident, it happens all so quickly. And the idea that losing our critter is so sudden that we may cling to any amount of hope.


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## Dbrooke407

lalachka said:


> Really? So if I don't take your advice then I can't talk to you about that problem?
> 
> I mean, whatever works for you. I don't have friends like that and I wouldn't blackmail anyone this way into taking my advice either but to each his own.
> 
> Also, many times people are not looking for advice, they just want to vent.


Not even close. Ever had a female friend that's in a verbally abusive relationship? She complains about it all the time but won't do anything to change it? Wants your advice but doesn't take it? Similar to that. I'm sorry, but after a while of listening to her complain about her bf, I don't want to listen to it anymore. She doesn't want help. She just wants to complain. My friend applies the same thing with dogs. It has nothing to do with "you need to listen to me or else." 


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## lalachka

Dbrooke407 said:


> Not even close. Ever had a female friend that's in a verbally abusive relationship? She complains about it all the time but won't do anything to change it? Wants your advice but doesn't take it? Similar to that. I'm sorry, but after a while of listening to her complain about her bf, I don't want to listen to it anymore. She doesn't want help. She just wants to complain. My friend applies the same thing with dogs. It has nothing to do with "you need to listen to me or else."
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lolol yes I have and I agree on those, it's same old over and over. And they def don't need the advice, they just want to talk about it their bf 24/7. 

So yeah when I'm tired of listening I just say I don't want to hear it anymore. But not because they're not taking my advice, just because I'm bored out of my mind. 

So I think it's OK to say you don't want to hear about their dog because of whatever, like you're getting upset, you're tired of it. 

Just not from the standpoint that they didn't take your advice. 


I do understand your frustration. Whether you're right or wrong you're passionate about this situation. All I'm trying to say is that sometimes you have to let go. People will do what they want to do and it's not always right to interfere. 

You have every right to be upset though.


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## lalachka

And you really don't know if they like their dog. It's not always so black and white, feelings are complicated. They themselves might not know how they feel about him. 

They can treat him bad in your opinion but to them they're doing their best. And they can be saying they don't like him to seem tough or funny. 

Or they might really not like him. 
It's not as black and white as you think. 


We had a guy at work who would never say anything nice about anything or anyone including himself. He had this very cute self deprecating style, actually it was really funny, the things he said, the way he said them and the way he looked. 

Listening to him talk about kids you'd think he's a monster. He's not, just a funny guy with his own unique style.


----------



## Dbrooke407

lalachka said:


> Lolol yes I have and I agree on those, it's same old over and over. And they def don't need the advice, they just want to talk about it their bf 24/7.
> 
> So yeah when I'm tired of listening I just say I don't want to hear it anymore. But not because they're not taking my advice, just because I'm bored out of my mind.
> 
> So I think it's OK to say you don't want to hear about their dog because of whatever, like you're getting upset, you're tired of it.
> 
> Just not from the standpoint that they didn't take your advice.
> 
> 
> I do understand your frustration. Whether you're right or wrong you're passionate about this situation. All I'm trying to say is that sometimes you have to let go. People will do what they want to do and it's not always right to interfere.
> 
> You have every right to be upset though.


I don't care if they take my advice or not. It's not about that. I just get tired of hearing negative things about a dog when it isn't even the dogs fault. Same way I get tired of hearing somebodies bf is a jerk while they stay with him.


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## lalachka

Dbrooke407 said:


> I don't care if they take my advice or not. It's not about that. I just get tired of hearing negative things about a dog when it isn't even the dogs fault. Same way I get tired of hearing somebodies bf is a jerk while they stay with him.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


OK then tell them to stop. I only replied because I saw a suggestion to set boundaries since they didn't take your advice.


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## Dbrooke407

lalachka said:


> OK then tell them to stop. I only replied because I saw a suggestion to set boundaries since they didn't take your advice.


For me it was NEVER about taking my advice. It was about the fact the whole thing could have been so easily prevented. But since it wasn't the dog is now struggling to breathe with a punctured lung, among other injuries. Not about them not listening to me. It doesn't bother me when people don't want my advice. I don't want most people's advice either. Just human nature! Granted, if it could benefit my life or my dogs life I will seriously consider the advice. But that's just me. 


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## lalachka

Dbrooke407 said:


> For me it was NEVER about taking my advice. It was about the fact the whole thing could have been so easily prevented. But since it wasn't the dog is now struggling to breathe with a punctured lung, among other injuries. Not about them not listening to me. It doesn't bother me when people don't want my advice. I don't want most people's advice either. Just human nature! Granted, if it could benefit my life or my dogs life I will seriously consider the advice. But that's just me.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You don't know if it could've been prevented. I personally believe that if something is meant to happen it will, one way or the other. So you'd train the dog to stop wandering and it'd get hurt some other way. 


As far as not taking your advice, I was replying to both of the posts below



> Originally Posted by Dbrooke407
> 
> Thank you! That does make me feel better. My friend also said that it helps to tell the people (after having your offer for help shot down) to don't speak to you about the dog ever again. They don't want the help, they don't get to talk about the "problematic" dog. So I'll probably try that next time. Although I'm not sure it would work in your field!




It's absolutely acceptable to enforce boundaries about what you are and aren't willing to discuss with people. Don't feel bad about saying that you can not continue a conversation.  I would use a response along the lines of "we have already had this conversation. I presented you with options and you chose not to act on them, so I don't feel we need to continue this discussion, unless it's in relation to the options I presented you with earlier". That will limit the emotional toll on you and help you enforce boundaries in how you relate to people who aren't willing to take your advice. 





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## Stevenzachsmom

I don't understand why Dbrooke has had to face so much argument. Wasn't it Dear Abby who said that feelings are neither right nor wrong? Dbrooke came here to "rant". See title. I would be upset too, if I knew someone had taken a seriously injured dying pet home without treatment. I would also be upset that the injury was preventable and that offers of help were declined. 

Yes, we only get one side. No, we don't know the dog's owner. The owner has not been named. The owner does not know about this discussion. This thread has absolutely no affect on the owners. Yet, in all these pages, DBrooke has been forced to defend her feelings and her responses. Who exactly is being judged?

At least three people have posted 10 or more responses to this thread. That seems more argumentative than helpful. I am glad that DBrooke is a caring compassionate person. I think for the sake of her own self preservation she needs to distance herself from these people. She offered the best help and advice she had. It was refused. I commend her for being such a mature young woman.

I am sorry that her thread has been derailed to the point it has.


----------



## lalachka

It's a forum so people will respond both agreeing and disagreeing. If she didn't want any replies she should've said so. But she can't only expect replies that will agree with her. 

And if you're going to listen to dear Abby then apply it to the dog owners as well. Their feelings aren't right or wrong either. They also didn't ask for their story to be aired.

ETA and since they're not here to defend themselves now that it has been aired I think it's only fair that some people try to understand their side as well.


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## Stevenzachsmom

It isn't disagreeing lala....it is disagreeing over and over and over by the same person. Using a lot of words and being repetitious doesn't make it right. Say what you have to say and let it go.


----------



## lalachka

Stevenzachsmom said:


> It isn't disagreeing lala....it is disagreeing over and over and over by the same person. Using a lot of words and being repetitious doesn't make it right. Say what you have to say and let it go.


Same person being me? I like to blab online, that's what I do for fun. Is there a limit on how many times I can repeat myself?


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## Gwenhwyfair

In general wrt threads going unexpected places, it happens all the time. If you start a thread on this forum and you want it to stay on track the OP needs to stay on top of it. This happened with my 'minors' thread recently. Some folks weren't exactly going easy on me. :shrug: That's how it goes on forums.


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## Dbrooke407

lalachka said:


> You don't know if it could've been prevented. I personally believe that if something is meant to happen it will, one way or the other. So you'd train the dog to stop wandering and it'd get hurt some other way.
> 
> 
> As far as not taking your advice, I was replying to both of the posts below
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's absolutely acceptable to enforce boundaries about what you are and aren't willing to discuss with people. Don't feel bad about saying that you can not continue a conversation.  I would use a response along the lines of "we have already had this conversation. I presented you with options and you chose not to act on them, so I don't feel we need to continue this discussion, unless it's in relation to the options I presented you with earlier". That will limit the emotional toll on you and help you enforce boundaries in how you relate to people who aren't willing to take your advice.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> <font color="gray">Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I'll tell you what she told me her dogs living conditions are. He lives in a premade fence that you can buy at Lowes. There is t enough room for him to run around and really play. He does not get taken out and physically exercised. He doesn't have any toys in his little fenced in area. It's on red dirt. He's not allowed inside. All he has is Athena, the other GSD. The owner is pissed because this is the third or fourth fence she's had to buy because he chews through the wire and gets out. He's extremely protective of the property and doesn't allow strangers on it without the owners being present. After he sees the owners are okay with the person, he's okay with them too. They live in front of a highway that he frequently runs across to go exploring his property, as well of that of the land lords. The land lord is pissed the dog is allowed to run free and told them to either get the dog under control or they'd be evicted. These are all things that the owner has told me face to face. I'm more likely to take this as the complete truth even though I haven't seen it with my own eyes because she's honest about the good and the bad. 
I noticed earlier you said you have a coworker that acts tough for whatever reason. She doesn't. She's a total mushball. According to her, Hurley is a very bad dog and he'll never change. 

So you tell me, if he was taken out of his pen and taken for a walk and then played with or trained with; if he was taught to positively associate staying away from moving vehicles with something good happening, could it have been prevented? Most likely it could have. The dog is bored in his little pen and so he chews through it. He doesn't have anything to mentally stimulate him, so he has to find things himself. Which results in him being labeled as "bad" because they are "negative" ways to stimulate himself. 

I am not trying to speak negatively upon his owner. I'm merely saying what she has told me. 


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## selzer

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I don't understand why Dbrooke has had to face so much argument. Wasn't it Dear Abby who said that feelings are neither right nor wrong? Dbrooke came here to "rant". See title. I would be upset too, if I knew someone had taken a seriously injured dying pet home without treatment. I would also be upset that the injury was preventable and that offers of help were declined.
> 
> Yes, we only get one side. No, we don't know the dog's owner. The owner has not been named. The owner does not know about this discussion. This thread has absolutely no affect on the owners. Yet, in all these pages, DBrooke has been forced to defend her feelings and her responses. Who exactly is being judged?
> 
> At least three people have posted 10 or more responses to this thread. That seems more argumentative than helpful. I am glad that DBrooke is a caring compassionate person. I think for the sake of her own self preservation she needs to distance herself from these people. She offered the best help and advice she had. It was refused. I commend her for being such a mature young woman.
> 
> I am sorry that her thread has been derailed to the point it has.


You counted? 

And I thought I was having a slow day. 

I am probably one of the three. But sometimes it isn't about the original post, but the content, and the suggestions of other people. The OP did not ask for advice, but people gave her advice, advice to call AC. That, and the fact that many people have a tough decision to make when our critters are failing and who should be the one to make that decision. 

Conversations do continue on from where they started. I don't know that this derailed as in, went off topic, so much as it is a rant that not every one agrees completely with everyone that agrees with the OP. 

And the argument as to whether the dog owner truly does not care about their dog. 

I don't know how we got into the judgemental garbage. Suggesting that the people who own the dog may care about it a lot more than she thinks they do is reasonable -- not judgemental, but then she argues back that she KNOWS they don't care. Suggesting that different people make the decision to put a dog down differently is not judgemental.

But the idea of a veterinarian calling AC, and AC coming and taking the dog away and gassing it with a bunch of other dogs -- and we aren't supposed to respond to such things??? 

It does take two sides to keep something going, and on a slow day...


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## lalachka

OK, those things don't sound good. She doesn't sound malicious though, just irresponsible. 


Few questions though. Why do you think she didn't put the dog to sleep? What do YOU think the reason is?

Why is she telling you all these bad things abt herself? She has to realize how it makes her look. Does she think she's not doing anything wrong? Or...?


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## selzer

Dbrooke407 said:


> I'll tell you what she told me her dogs living conditions are. He lives in a premade fence that you can buy at Lowes. There is t enough room for him to run around and really play. He does not get taken out and physically exercised. He doesn't have any toys in his little fenced in area. It's on red dirt. He's not allowed inside. All he has is Athena, the other GSD. The owner is pissed because this is the third or fourth fence she's had to buy because he chews through the wire and gets out. He's extremely protective of the property and doesn't allow strangers on it without the owners being present. After he sees the owners are okay with the person, he's okay with them too. They live in front of a highway that he frequently runs across to go exploring his property, as well of that of the land lords. The land lord is pissed the dog is allowed to run free and told them to either get the dog under control or they'd be evicted. These are all things that the owner has told me face to face. I'm more likely to take this as the complete truth even though I haven't seen it with my own eyes because she's honest about the good and the bad.
> I noticed earlier you said you have a coworker that acts tough for whatever reason. She doesn't. She's a total mushball. According to her, Hurley is a very bad dog and he'll never change.
> 
> So you tell me, if he was taken out of his pen and taken for a walk and then played with or trained with; if he was taught to positively associate staying away from moving vehicles with something good happening, could it have been prevented? Most likely it could have. The dog is bored in his little pen and so he chews through it. He doesn't have anything to mentally stimulate him, so he has to find things himself. Which results in him being labeled as "bad" because they are "negative" ways to stimulate himself.
> 
> I am not trying to speak negatively upon his owner. I'm merely saying what she has told me.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This is not far different than dogs we had when I was growing up. They never came inside, they were generally chained outside. They were never walked. They had no toys. But we did care about the dogs. It is just a different way of owning dogs. When I was a kid that was the way most people around kept their dogs, especially big dogs. It really doesn't mean they do not care about the dogs. 

Princess was an outside dog. Lived on a chain. She was very happy and everyone in the family cared about her. When we put her down when she was over 14, half the family went with her to the vet to say good bye and be there for her. 

I think people are just different kinds of owners. These people are people you would never relinquish a dog to and that is fine. Most of us would not. We on here all think dogs should be inside with the people. But not everyone does. I think the people cared about the dog, they just fell short when it came to containing the dog properly, and at the end, maybe due to the guilt that they did not do enough to prevent it from happening, they wanted to give the dog a chance at recovery if there was any chance. It sounds like they did take the dog in and put it down. 

People think I am satan the devil when I argue that humane societies should put a dog that is terribly burned or has gone through and awful accident down rather than amputating the leg or doing skin grafts. It is all terribly painful, and I think that an agency that is a temporary guardian of stray, homeless dogs, should be quicker to do the humane thing and put a dog out of its pain. But others see that some dog survived all that and had years of life left and see that as a reason that they should do all in their power to save a dog.


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## Dbrooke407

Let me just go ahead and say that it was not my intention to sound judgmental over his owners. And maybe they do care about the dog more than they let on. For that I apologize. 
But please try to keep in mind, that I'm the one hearing how they talk about the dog and what they've said. You can't all say that you haven't met somebody you went ahead and assumed didn't really care for their dog merely by the way they spoke. 
So yes, I went ahead and made the assumption they don't care much about the dog, if at all. I did what humans do. 
I also realize and understand that like most humans, they're struggling to make a life or death decision for their dog. My mom struggled with that decision when her previous dog got cancer and it spread into the thyroids within a matter of two weeks. It's a terrible decision to have to make. But illness and broken bones are different from a punctured lung. Could you imagine trying to breathe with a hole in your lung? Because I certainly can't! But as least as a human I would be in the hospital and jacked up on morphine during the healing time. The dog only has pills and who knows how well those actually work to alleviate the pain? 


Point is, I apologize to those I've offended by sounding judgmental and assuming they don't really care about the dog. But I won't apologize for being upset that a dog is being kept alive while bleeding to death internally and struggling to breathe. 



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## Dbrooke407

selzer said:


> This is not far different than dogs we had when I was growing up. They never came inside, they were generally chained outside. They were never walked. They had no toys. But we did care about the dogs. It is just a different way of owning dogs. When I was a kid that was the way most people around kept their dogs, especially big dogs. It really doesn't mean they do not care about the dogs.
> 
> Princess was an outside dog. Lived on a chain. She was very happy and everyone in the family cared about her. When we put her down when she was over 14, half the family went with her to the vet to say good bye and be there for her.
> 
> I think people are just different kinds of owners. These people are people you would never relinquish a dog to and that is fine. Most of us would not. We on here all think dogs should be inside with the people. But not everyone does. I think the people cared about the dog, they just fell short when it came to containing the dog properly, and at the end, maybe due to the guilt that they did not do enough to prevent it from happening, they wanted to give the dog a chance at recovery if there was any chance. It sounds like they did take the dog in and put it down.
> 
> People think I am satan the devil when I argue that humane societies should put a dog that is terribly burned or has gone through and awful accident down rather than amputating the leg or doing skin grafts. It is all terribly painful, and I think that an agency that is a temporary guardian of stray, homeless dogs, should be quicker to do the humane thing and put a dog out of its pain. But others see that some dog survived all that and had years of life left and see that as a reason that they should do all in their power to save a dog.


I'm fine with outside dogs (I won't own any, but that's just me). But if the dog is putting itself in harms way to find stimulation, at least TRY to do something about it. Some bones or a ball. Something!

I also agree with putting a dog down when in those conditions. And when it's in the condition this dog is in. 


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## Dbrooke407

lalachka said:


> OK, those things don't sound good. She doesn't sound malicious though, just irresponsible.
> 
> 
> Few questions though. Why do you think she didn't put the dog to sleep? What do YOU think the reason is?
> 
> Why is she telling you all these bad things abt herself? She has to realize how it makes her look. Does she think she's not doing anything wrong? Or...?


I think she's keeping Hurley alive because she recently had a baby and her hormones are amped up. It's natural, she can't help it. BUT there's a time to put logic before feelings and I believe this should be one of those times. 


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## selzer

I have more tolerance for families to struggle with the decision for a dog than I have for humane agencies. 

It really is impossible to say to your work acquaintance that they should put that poor dog down already. All you can do, really, is be frustrated and come on and rant about it. I understand that. In defending the other person, it was not so much to play devil's advocate, but to try to maybe help you see them as less horrible, so it would be easier to feel empathy.

Didn't work. Sorry.


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## David Taggart

Take it on the level of psychic personal energy. We pass our energy to other peole, and other people charge us with their energy, positive, or negative. The constant interchange of our energies creates relationships, cause breaks, it helps us understand another person, and, all in all, makes our social life possible. If it us, who supplies this energy flow - it starts with paying attention to the other person's words. You give your energy away when you heed. In certain teachings about psychic energy the people, who seemingly waste our time, but, in, fact they are "feeding" on our energy by talking to us some nonsense, are called the "vampires". They don't give you anything back, if you speak, you can judge by their empty eyes. Very often they are the monologists - only them speak, you are quickly shut up and confused with just another bit of exciting information for you. These people mean to shock and to impress, thus gulping your energy in large portions. Talking in an authoritive manner, they tend to grab your attention fully. Normally, they are good speakers, and good liars. This woman doesn't have any uncle with a Belgian shepherd, but she got this information from somewhere and used it as a hook for you. She knows from situations, that dog owners can talk about dogs endlessly, so, she made you her prey. Some of vampires are people of a shallow, but rather encyclopedic knowledge. The next person after you could have been a plumber, with whom she would discuss the sewage joint. All of this isn't funny, because, it's said these people live long.


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## Chantald

In response to lalachka, my post on setting boundaries was not a "you didn't take my advice so now in upset and stop talking to me about it" emotional blackmail suggestion. It was about balancing your emotional needs so that you don't become an emotional hostage to someone else's life. Much like the situation described by the OP about a girlfriend in an emotionally abusive relationship who keeps staying.

At some point, it becomes acceptable to say that you're tired of the discussion, as options have been presented in the past, and you can no longer invest of yourself personally in that because its draining and exhausting. 

We all set up boundaries in the ways we relate to each other, and if you can no longer handle something, it is okay to reinforce that boundary.


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## Dbrooke407

selzer said:


> I have more tolerance for families to struggle with the decision for a dog than I have for humane agencies.
> 
> It really is impossible to say to your work acquaintance that they should put that poor dog down already. All you can do, really, is be frustrated and come on and rant about it. I understand that. In defending the other person, it was not so much to play devil's advocate, but to try to maybe help you see them as less horrible, so it would be easier to feel empathy.
> 
> Didn't work. Sorry.


Oh, I don't see her as a horrible person! I quite like her. Even though I don't agree with keeping the dog alive at this point. She actually JUST texted me telling me it's been her bf making them keep the dog alive and she just left him. But the dog has to stay with him because his name is on the papers for Hurley and Athena. Although she plans to fight for the custody of their son and two dogs in court. I figured he had something to with it, but she never said anything about it before and I didn't want to just assume it was him. 


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## selzer

David Taggart said:


> Take it on the level of psychic personal energy. We pass our energy to other peole, and other people charge us with their energy, positive, or negative. The constant interchange of our energies creates relationships, cause breaks, it helps us understand another person, and, all in all, makes our social life possible. If it us, who supplies this energy flow - it starts with paying attention to the other person's words. You give your energy away when you heed. In certain teachings about psychic energy the people, who seemingly waste our time, but, in, fact they are "feeding" on our energy by talking to us some nonsense, are called the "vampires". They don't give you anything back, if you speak, you can judge by their empty eyes. Very often they are the monologists - only them speak, you are quickly shut up and confused with just another bit of exciting information for you. These people mean to shock and to impress, thus gulping your energy in large portions. Talking in an authoritive manner, they tend to grab your attention fully. Normally, they are good speakers, and good liars. This woman doesn't have any uncle with a Belgian shepherd, but she got this information from somewhere and used it as a hook for you. She knows from situations, that dog owners can talk about dogs endlessly, so, she made you her prey. Some of vampires are people of a shallow, but rather encyclopedic knowledge. The next person after you could have been a plumber, with whom she would discuss the sewage joint. All of this isn't funny, because, it's said these people live long.



Wow. 

I used to call them dementors. They are vampires.


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## Chantald

selzer said:


> Wow.
> 
> I used to call them dementors. They are vampires.


I had clients like that that I would call either time vampires, or hostage takers lol


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## Dbrooke407

Chantald said:


> In response to lalachka, my post on setting boundaries was not a "you didn't take my advice so now in upset and stop talking to me about it" emotional blackmail suggestion. It was about balancing your emotional needs so that you don't become an emotional hostage to someone else's life. Much like the situation described by the OP about a girlfriend in an emotionally abusive relationship who keeps staying.
> 
> At some point, it becomes acceptable to say that you're tired of the discussion, as options have been presented in the past, and you can no longer invest of yourself personally in that because its draining and exhausting.
> 
> We all set up boundaries in the ways we relate to each other, and if you can no longer handle something, it is okay to reinforce that boundary.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I agree with this. I'm one of those people that tend to get extremely and easily invested with my emotions. I can't help it. It's just who I am. So at some point I'm going to have to learn to do this. I just don't know how long it'll take for m to build up to that point. 


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## selzer

Dbrooke407 said:


> Oh, I don't see her as a horrible person! I quite like her. Even though I don't agree with keeping the dog alive at this point. She actually JUST texted me telling me it's been her bf making them keep the dog alive and she just left him. But the dog has to stay with him because his name is on the papers for Hurley and Athena. Although she plans to fight for the custody of their son and two dogs in court. I figured he had something to with it, but she never said anything about it before and I didn't want to just assume it was him.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She sounds like someone who probably needs a sounding board and a LOT of empathy. Dog near death, pregnant, left her BF, kid in the middle, etc. Sounds like a hard time all around.


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## Dbrooke407

David Taggart said:


> Take it on the level of psychic personal energy. We pass our energy to other peole, and other people charge us with their energy, positive, or negative. The constant interchange of our energies creates relationships, cause breaks, it helps us understand another person, and, all in all, makes our social life possible. If it us, who supplies this energy flow - it starts with paying attention to the other person's words. You give your energy away when you heed. In certain teachings about psychic energy the people, who seemingly waste our time, but, in, fact they are "feeding" on our energy by talking to us some nonsense, are called the "vampires". They don't give you anything back, if you speak, you can judge by their empty eyes. Very often they are the monologists - only them speak, you are quickly shut up and confused with just another bit of exciting information for you. These people mean to shock and to impress, thus gulping your energy in large portions. Talking in an authoritive manner, they tend to grab your attention fully. Normally, they are good speakers, and good liars. This woman doesn't have any uncle with a Belgian shepherd, but she got this information from somewhere and used it as a hook for you. She knows from situations, that dog owners can talk about dogs endlessly, so, she made you her prey. Some of vampires are people of a shallow, but rather encyclopedic knowledge. The next person after you could have been a plumber, with whom she would discuss the sewage joint. All of this isn't funny, because, it's said these people live long.


This is a whole new way for me to look at people. Like holy wow! I never thought of anything like this!


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## Chantald

David Taggart said:


> Take it on the level of psychic personal energy. We pass our energy to other peole, and other people charge us with their energy, positive, or negative. The constant interchange of our energies creates relationships, cause breaks, it helps us understand another person, and, all in all, makes our social life possible. If it us, who supplies this energy flow - it starts with paying attention to the other person's words. You give your energy away when you heed. In certain teachings about psychic energy the people, who seemingly waste our time, but, in, fact they are "feeding" on our energy by talking to us some nonsense, are called the "vampires". They don't give you anything back, if you speak, you can judge by their empty eyes. Very often they are the monologists - only them speak, you are quickly shut up and confused with just another bit of exciting information for you. These people mean to shock and to impress, thus gulping your energy in large portions. Talking in an authoritive manner, they tend to grab your attention fully. Normally, they are good speakers, and good liars. This woman doesn't have any uncle with a Belgian shepherd, but she got this information from somewhere and used it as a hook for you. She knows from situations, that dog owners can talk about dogs endlessly, so, she made you her prey. Some of vampires are people of a shallow, but rather encyclopedic knowledge. The next person after you could have been a plumber, with whom she would discuss the sewage joint. All of this isn't funny, because, it's said these people live long.


I actually have a dear friend like this in my life, and as much as I love her to pieces, she's exhausting and I can only handle her in small doses. It's not so much that she's constantly trying to one up me, but she lives in a perpetual state of crisis. If its not her depression, it's her inability to pay the rent, or losing her home, or getting to work, and she hates her job, and her boyfriend is terrible, etc etc... When I lived in the same town, I almost turned into a nervous wreck myself because so much of my time was focused on keeping her stable, which wasn't possible. Once I moved away for university, and then across the country with my spouse, the distance helped because we just needed that buffer zone. We both now live in Quebec, but thankfully there's a 4 hour buffer zone so I can go visit and enjoy myself but then retreat back to my comfort zone and maintain the space I need.

To the OP, if you let them, some people will suck the life out of you. It can be hard, but you just can't let them! 


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## Dbrooke407

Chantald said:


> I actually have a dear friend like this in my life, and as much as I love her to pieces, she's exhausting and I can only handle her in small doses. It's not so much that she's constantly trying to one up me, but she lives in a perpetual state of crisis. If its not her depression, it's her inability to pay the rent, or losing her home, or getting to work, and she hates her job, and her boyfriend is terrible, etc etc... When I lived in the same town, I almost turned into a nervous wreck myself because so much of my time was focused on keeping her stable, which wasn't possible. Once I moved away for university, and then across the country with my spouse, the distance helped because we just needed that buffer zone. We both now live in Quebec, but thankfully there's a 4 hour buffer zone so I can go visit and enjoy myself but then retreat back to my comfort zone and maintain the space I need.
> 
> To the OP, if you let them, some people will suck the life out of you. It can be hard, but you just can't let them!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Don't I know it! I just never thought of it this way. I knew there were certain people I could take too much of for extended periods of time. But now that I have this way to view people, I can be a little more cautious about it all. 


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## Gwenhwyfair

Cool post.

David is known for his unique perspectives and I agree we bump into our share of narcissistic types in life....but me thinks he's in a different thread, so to speak. The lady with the Belgian shepherd was a totally different thread. But it works here too, Namaste. 

eta - Or did I mess up again and there's a Belgian shepherd mentioned in this thread too!!



David Taggart said:


> Take it on the level of psychic personal energy. We pass our energy to other peole, and other people charge us with their energy, positive, or negative. The constant interchange of our energies creates relationships, cause breaks, it helps us understand another person, and, all in all, makes our social life possible. If it us, who supplies this energy flow - it starts with paying attention to the other person's words. You give your energy away when you heed. In certain teachings about psychic energy the people, who seemingly waste our time, but, in, fact they are "feeding" on our energy by talking to us some nonsense, are called the "vampires". They don't give you anything back, if you speak, you can judge by their empty eyes. Very often they are the monologists - only them speak, you are quickly shut up and confused with just another bit of exciting information for you. These people mean to shock and to impress, thus gulping your energy in large portions. Talking in an authoritive manner, they tend to grab your attention fully. Normally, they are good speakers, and good liars. *This woman doesn't have any uncle with a Belgian shepherd, but she got this information from somewhere and used it as a hook for you.* She knows from situations, that dog owners can talk about dogs endlessly, so, she made you her prey. Some of vampires are people of a shallow, but rather encyclopedic knowledge. The next person after you could have been a plumber, with whom she would discuss the sewage joint. All of this isn't funny, because, it's said these people live long.


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## Chantald

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Cool post.
> 
> David is known for his unique perspectives and I agree we bump into our share of narcissistic types in life....but me thinks he's in a different thread, so to speak. The lady with the Belgian shepherd was a totally different thread. But it works here too, Namaste.
> 
> eta - Or did I mess up again and there's a Belgian shepherd mentioned in this thread too!!


If this is meant for a different thread, it's definitely oddly fitting, eh? 


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hehehe- Nothing is an accident. 



Chantald said:


> If this is meant for a different thread, it's definitely oddly fitting, eh?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Chantald

Very serendipitous indeed 


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## Gwenhwyfair

*phew* thought I was in a thread warp, but did a search, only mention of a Belgian shepherd in this thread was David's post.

O.K. back to the Tardis. 





Chantald said:


> Very serendipitous indeed
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Cool post.
> 
> David is known for his unique perspectives and I agree we bump into our share of narcissistic types in life....but me thinks he's in a different thread, so to speak. The lady with the Belgian shepherd was a totally different thread. But it works here too, Namaste.
> 
> eta - Or did I mess up again and there's a Belgian shepherd mentioned in this thread too!!


It's not that unique. Energetic vampires, i read about them a while ago. There are def people like that out there. After talking to them you feel like **** and they, on the other hand, look and feel better instantly. 

Since we are already talking about these kinds of things, I also hate people that don't know how to shut up. They don't know how to listen but they will go on and on and on in the smallest detail about anything. Maybe all of them are vampires and maybe not. 

I get annoyed, I feel like I'm being violated because I'm being made to do something I don't want to do. 

I learned how to tell them to shut up nicely.


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## Chantald

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *phew* thought I was in a thread warp, but did a search, only mention of a Belgian shepherd in this thread was David's post.
> 
> O.K. back to the Tardis.


Yeah I was genuinely thinking of another post about a rude woman commenting on the OP's dog not being a purebred show dog like here was. And she fed a raw vegan diet lol. Can't remember the breed of that dog, but had a moment where I thought it might be that thread. Gotta love those "huh?" moments!


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## Gwenhwyfair

Hi Lala,

Yes I meant in *general* David has unique perspectives. Even though I'm pretty sure he was thinking of the thread Chantald mentions above, some people are like that. I am familiar with the term energy vampires having wandered through new age philosophy. Though I think the technical term that applies to many of them is 'narcissists'. 

I have a trick for shutting them up too, start talking about yourself, your life, your problems, works like a charm. 





lalachka said:


> It's not that unique. Energetic vampires, i read about them a while ago. There are def people like that out there. After talking to them you feel like **** and they, on the other hand, look and feel better instantly.
> 
> Since we are already talking about these kinds of things, I also hate people that don't know how to shut up. They don't know how to listen but they will go on and on and on in the smallest detail about anything. Maybe all of them are vampires and maybe not.
> 
> I get annoyed, I feel like I'm being violated because I'm being made to do something I don't want to do.
> 
> I learned how to tell them to shut up nicely.


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## GSDolch

I find the talk of psy vamps on here interesting...usually I only find that topic on my pagan boards I visit, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair

It crops up in new age discussions/literature and such too. 

This is just my humble opinion from my travels....

I think we all sometimes go through stages where we feel needy and need someone to lean on temporarily.

When it's chronic I think it's like any addiction where someone is trying to 'self medicate' to alleviate some sort of psychic pain by seeking attention, reassurance constantly. Most of the time I don't think it's intentional or meant in malice, but still it's very draining to be around. There are some people who I call 'beacons' that attract these types too. They mean well but get sucked into it thinking they are helping the other person out. 

I used to be that 'beacon' person but I learned, the hard way it was not good. My hubby is the opposite, he's like garlic to energy vampires! I have a couple in my life I need to interact with due to business but keep them at an arm's length. They can't stand my hubs, which is usually a sure sign they are an energy vampire. 





GSDolch said:


> I find the talk of psy vamps on here interesting...usually I only find that topic on my pagan boards I visit, lol.


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## lalachka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Hi Lala,
> 
> Yes I meant in *general* David has unique perspectives. Even though I'm pretty sure he was thinking of the thread Chantald mentions above, some people are like that. I am familiar with the term energy vampires having wandered through new age philosophy. Though I think the technical term that applies to many of them is 'narcissists'.
> 
> I have a trick for shutting them up too, start talking about yourself, your life, your problems, works like a charm.


Lol it's energy vampires not energetic?)))))))) I read about them in Russian so this was my way of translating it. 
Yeah, he messed up threads but i don't think it can be applied here, I doubt this girl is an energy vampire. It's still an interesting topic though 

As far as shutting them up, I can never compete))))) I don't know how to talk over people and that's why I get pissed when people cut me off. I like to get the same courtesy I'm giving. 

So I just say stuff like 'speed it up' or 'I don't care' but with a smile. I usually can say any rude thing with a smile and it goes fine. 

I think that's the reason I come off rude in writing and not in person.


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## GSDolch

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It crops up in new age discussions/literature and such too.
> 
> This is just my humble opinion from my travels....
> 
> I think we all sometimes go through stages where we feel needy and need someone to lean on temporarily.
> 
> When it's chronic I think it's like any addiction where someone is trying to 'self medicate' to alleviate some sort of psychic pain by seeking attention, reassurance constantly. Most of the time I don't think it's intentional or meant in malice, but still it's very draining to be around. There are some people who I call 'beacons' that attract these types too. They mean well but get sucked into it thinking they are helping the other person out.
> 
> I used to be that 'beacon' person but I learned, the hard way it was not good. My hubby is the opposite, he's like garlic to energy vampires! I have a couple in my life I need to interact with due to business but keep them at an arm's length. They can't stand my hubs, which is usually a sure sign they are an energy vampire.


Thats an interesting view on it and one that I can agree with. I believe that there are people just like you describe. I'm not sure if I could call them an actual energy vamp, at least not from my own experience.

The topic comes up often on some other boards I am on, about the ethics and moral implications of being one. It's interesting some of the claims some make and how some don't "feed" unless the other person is willing. Honestly I try not to get into the discussion to much, but I'd rather get into one of those instead of the ones who say they actually drink other peoples blood. bleck.

I think though, we have derailed the topic and ran it off a cliff now though, lol.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Oh, are you from Russia originally? 

It is an interesting topic.

Your method will work!  

For my personality I just prefer being more subtle if I can. It's sort of interesting too, when you intentionally and carefully 'flip it around' on them to see how they react. 



lalachka said:


> Lol it's energy vampires not energetic?)))))))) I read about them in Russian so this was my way of translating it.
> Yeah, he messed up threads but i don't think it can be applied here, I doubt this girl is an energy vampire. It's still an interesting topic though
> 
> As far as shutting them up, I can never compete))))) I don't know how to talk over people and that's why I get pissed when people cut me off. I like to get the same courtesy I'm giving.
> 
> So I just say stuff like 'speed it up' or 'I don't care' but with a smile. I usually can say any rude thing with a smile and it goes fine.
> 
> I think that's the reason I come off rude in writing and not in person.


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## Chantald

Gwenhwyfair said:


> It crops up in new age discussions/literature and such too.
> 
> This is just my humble opinion from my travels....
> 
> I think we all sometimes go through stages where we feel needy and need someone to lean on temporarily.
> 
> When it's chronic I think it's like any addiction where someone is trying to 'self medicate' to alleviate some sort of psychic pain by seeking attention, reassurance constantly. Most of the time I don't think it's intentional or meant in malice, but still it's very draining to be around. There are some people who I call 'beacons' that attract these types too. They mean well but get sucked into it thinking they are helping the other person out.
> 
> I used to be that 'beacon' person but I learned, the hard way it was not good. My hubby is the opposite, he's like garlic to energy vampires! I have a couple in my life I need to interact with due to business but keep them at an arm's length. They can't stand my hubs, which is usually a sure sign they are an energy vampire.


I used to be a "beacon" too (I'm not overly familiar with the new age terms). I think that's what drew me to social services was my desire to help everyone. With experience came learning boundaries. 

I had a client with a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. While he was a huge pain in my butt almost all of the time, I definitely learnt a lot from him in how to create boundaries for my own piece of mind 


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## Gwenhwyfair

LOL! Yeah that's a bit too much. IMO it's some people are just needy and/or narcissistic and if they are self aware of that fact and are selective who they attach to, IMO they are just users......and the latter you mention, nope not going there either (eeewwwww)! 



GSDolch said:


> Thats an interesting view on it and one that I can agree with. I believe that there are people just like you describe. I'm not sure if I could call them an actual energy vamp, at least not from my own experience.
> 
> The topic comes up often on some other boards I am on, about the ethics and moral implications of being one. It's interesting some of the claims some make and how some don't "feed" unless the other person is willing. Honestly I try not to get into the discussion to much, but I'd rather get into one of those instead of the ones who say they actually drink other peoples blood. bleck.
> 
> I think though, we have derailed the topic and ran it off a cliff now though, lol.


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## lalachka

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Oh, are you from Russia originally?
> 
> It is an interesting topic.
> 
> Your method will work!
> 
> For my personality I just prefer being more subtle if I can. It's sort of interesting too, when you intentionally and carefully 'flip it around' on them to see how they react.


Yep yep, Russia)))) so most of my reading is done in Russian and it's sometimes interesting to see how terms are translated to English. 


And how do they react?))))) i'd love to be there and watch. This is one of the things that annoys me to no end, when people talk non stop but will cut everyone else off.

It doesn't even have to be me, I stop talking to people like that. 
But I can be watching 2 people talk and get pissed for the one that's being cut off.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup and that's the trick, boundaries. It's hard to do in an office/patient/client setting I bet and can be even harder in social situations.

I just don't allow them into my close personal space. I don't have the training, skills or patience to deal with them any more.

In other words, hats off to you for what you do! 






Chantald said:


> I used to be a "beacon" too (I'm not overly familiar with the new age terms). I think that's what drew me to social services was my desire to help everyone. With experience came learning boundaries.
> 
> I had a client with a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder. While he was a huge pain in my butt almost all of the time, I definitely learnt a lot from him in how to create boundaries for my own piece of mind
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gwenhwyfair

Well, for English being your second language you do well. 

Usually at first they try to switch the topic back to themselves. Then after awhile they get rather frustrated and may even call 'you' self centered. Of course the difference is you were doing it intentionally to test them....

One person (who was sort of my final straw) that I have to work with a lot I finally did tell her directly (as she was/is a tough nut to crack) 'Why does everything have to be about you?'. That slowed her down. We still talk but not as often and she's more careful. 

When they realize (often not really consciously) that you aren't going to be their 'psychic fix' they'll leave you alone.

One thing I keep in mind is a lot of times they don't realize they are doing it and often do it because they have some sort of emotional issue that causes them pain. Now...big caveat, this all just my humble opinion and ramblings but seems to work for me and makes some intuitive sense, at least to me. 



lalachka said:


> Yep yep, Russia)))) so most of my reading is done in Russian and it's sometimes interesting to see how terms are translated to English.
> 
> 
> And how do they react?))))) i'd love to be there and watch. This is one of the things that annoys me to no end, when people talk non stop but will cut everyone else off.
> 
> It doesn't even have to be me, I stop talking to people like that.
> But I can be watching 2 people talk and get pissed for the one that's being cut off.


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## Chantald

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Yup and that's the trick, boundaries. It's hard to do in an office/patient/client setting I bet and can be even harder in social situations.
> 
> I just don't allow them into my close personal space. I don't have the training, skills or patience to deal with them any more.
> 
> In other words, hats off to you for what you do!


It's actually really funny, because you have to find a way of telling a person off while still being professional! 

I remember this particular client came up to air his grievances about how I'm always too busy for him as I was lifting a guy with a mobility issue off of his mat and into his wheelchair. I ignored him until the guy was seated in his chair, and then spun around and reamed him out "You need to understand that my job description is not to be your personal sounding board. I have 73 other people in this facility for whom I'm responsible, so sometimes I am too busy to talk. You need to learn how to wait patiently until I am available, and at those times I would be more than happy to talk to you". That was a sort of final straw moment, and he got waaaay better after that LOL


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## lalachka

Chantald said:


> It's actually really funny, because you have to find a way of telling a person off while still being professional!
> 
> I remember this particular client came up to air his grievances about how I'm always too busy for him as I was lifting a guy with a mobility issue off of his mat and into his wheelchair. I ignored him until the guy was seated in his chair, and then spun around and reamed him out "You need to understand that my job description is not to be your personal sounding board. I have 73 other people in this facility for whom I'm responsible, so sometimes I am too busy to talk. You need to learn how to wait patiently until I am available, and at those times I would be more than happy to talk to you". That was a sort of final straw moment, and he got waaaay better after that LOL
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Where do you work? I thought it was a methadone clinic but now I see I'm wrong. 
In any case,not an easy job so more power to you


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## Chantald

lalachka said:


> Where do you work? I thought it was a methadone clinic but now I see I'm wrong.
> In any case,not an easy job so more power to you


I'm not working right now, my hubby is military and we got transferred so I had to quit my job and move across the country. 

But before I moved, I was working in a a big facility that was a drop in by day, shelter by night for the homeless, it had a non medical detox unit, transitional housing, and we also ran the city of Winnipegs intoxicated persons detention area (ie drunk tank) in cooperation with Winnipeg Police Services. 

Before that, in Toronto I worked in a community health centre that ran a needle and crack pipe distribution program.


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## BlitzkriegFrau

lalachka said:


> It's not that unique. Energetic vampires, i read about them a while ago. There are def people like that out there. After talking to them you feel like **** and they, on the other hand, look and feel better instantly.
> 
> Since we are already talking about these kinds of things, *I also hate people that don't know how to shut up. They don't know how to listen but they will go on and on and on in the smallest detail about anything. Maybe all of them are vampires and maybe not. *
> 
> I get annoyed, I feel like I'm being violated because I'm being made to do something I don't want to do.
> 
> I learned how to tell them to shut up nicely.


Pot meet kettle.


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## lalachka

BlitzkriegFrau said:


> Pot meet kettle.


I don't talk a lot. I also know how to listen. I also don't cut people off. 

Forums are a different story. You have a problem with me posting a lot? Ignore. Technology is great.


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## marbury

lalachka said:


> *I don't talk a lot.* I also know how to listen. I also don't cut people off.
> 
> Forums are a different story. You have a problem with me posting a lot? Ignore. Technology is great.


You have amassed significantly more posts on this site in a few months than most do in a YEAR. You talk a LOT. If I put you on my 'ignore' list I'd miss PAGES of dialogue on this site.


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## Jax08

BlitzkriegFrau said:


> Pot meet kettle.


I find it odd whenever a person signs up for a new account and the first and ONLY post they make is a snide comment to another poster. Troll maybe? Or someone with a duplicate account that feels the need to remain anonymous when they post something snide?


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## lalachka

marbury said:


> You have amassed significantly more posts on this site in a few months than most do in a YEAR. You talk a LOT. If I put you on my 'ignore' list I'd miss PAGES of dialogue on this site.


Tough stuff. Life sucks. 

There IS a difference between forums and real life, it's sad that you don't get it. Writing on forums is not talking because people have a choice to not read it. 

You choose to read it. 


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## lalachka

Jax08 said:


> I find it odd whenever a person signs up for a new account and the first and ONLY post they make is a snide comment to another poster. Troll maybe? Or someone with a duplicate account that feels the need to remain anonymous when they post something snide?


I must really bring out emotions in people. It happens, I'm used to it. 

But I didn't see that's their first post. How do you see that on the phone?


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## marbury

lalachka said:


> Tough stuff. Life sucks.
> 
> There IS a difference between forums and real life, it's sad that you don't get it. Writing on forums is not talking because people have a choice to not read it.
> 
> You choose to read it.


Oh, no. I get it, don't worry! I don't usually read your stuff, I just scroll past it. I just found that gem so particularly hilarious that I had to totally derail the thread to add my comment. I've been looking for the opportunity to point it out for a few weeks but it never presented itself.


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## lalachka

marbury said:


> Oh, no. I get it, don't worry! I don't usually read your stuff, I just scroll past it. I just found that gem so particularly hilarious that I had to totally derail the thread to add my comment. I've been looking for the opportunity to point it out for a few weeks but it never presented itself.


Today is your lucky day then. 

Omg. 


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## marbury

lalachka said:


> Today is your lucky day then.
> 
> Omg.



:thumbup::


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## Jax08

lalachka said:


> But I didn't see that's their first post. How do you see that on the phone?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



On the computer, it shows when someone signed up and how many posts they have.


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