# Day 3, Did we do the right thing?



## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

Saturday Morning we adopted a 9 month old male GSD. We got him from a family that was husband, wife, son (5), daughter (3), and cat. They said they had no behavioral problems from him at all. He was great with the kids, people, animals, etc. We show up at 10am saturday and he took to us great. No barking, licking us, laying on my lap, etc. He even went out back and played with my 9 year old daughter for about an hour. We bring him home and all is good for the afternoon.

The problems start.........

Saturday night I'm sitting on the couch and my daughter is sitting next to me. Kaiser our new pup is sitting on the floor in front of my daughter. All is quiet and calm. All of he sudden he just starts barking, jumps up into my daughters lap and goes nuts trying to bite her. I grab him but before I can get him off her he bites her on the hand. Once I got him off he keeps trying to attack. It took everything I had to hold him back and drag him into the other room. 

Sunday night it happens again. All day he is great with everyone. My daughter is laying on our bed watching tv. My wife is sitting by her at the computer. Kaiser is laying on the floor by his crate. My wife says all of the sudden he starts barking, jumps up into my daughters face and attacks her AGAIN! This time my wife couldn't get over there quick enough and he bit her on the arm leaving teeth marks and a big bruise. She got him off and he kept barking and being aggressive until she drug him out of the room. 

Monday (today) Third time is a charm. We get home from work and we are taking him for a walk. We let my daughter hold the leash and the three of us set out for a 2 mile walk. He does great. My daughter controls him and he listens. We encountered 3 dogs along the way and he ignores them and stays by her side walking. We wanted him to see that she is in control also. We get home and sit in the back yard for about 30 minutes. My daughter and him play catch with his ball. Fast forward a couple hours and we are sitting inside watching tv. EXACT SAME THING AS SATURDAY. Me and her are on the couch. He starts barking, jumps up and starts attaching her. I'm quicker this time and he does not get to her. This was the worst case yet. He is absolutely going nuts trying to get her. It was like he just lost his mind and would not stop. I had to drag him out of the room. It was so bad that my daughter went to her room and shut the door. He ran to her room and was barking and trying to get in. I finally had to put him in his crate to calm him down.

All three incidents there was no growling or warning. He went from 0 to full blown attack within seconds. This really has us worried. Of course my daughter is horrified. Once we get him calmed down its like he is her best friend again. Although we do not let him by her alone now. I put his prong collar on him tonight with his leash. I will not let him roam the house alone. He is perfectly fine with me, my wife, and our oldest daughter (17). It's just our youngest daughter that is 9 that he snaps over. 

Is this something that training can help? At what point do you say forget it, my daughters safety is worth more than trying to rehab our pup? The father in my wants to take him back and say nevermind this isn't worth it. The dog lover in me is saying its not his fault just keep trying. I'm at a loss here.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I say your daughter is priority. Call the previous owner and see if they fess up to his ways. How very sad for all of you. I hope this can be worked out, and I give your daughter credit for even going near him after the 2nd time.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

This sounds both strange and serious. Is your daughter moving or making any sound in particular when this happens? Something is not right at all and it does sound dangerous for your daughter. 

Clearly something is triggering this behavior but it could be medical (not sure what though) or he could have a bad association with children on a couch. Has it always happened at the same time and in the same place?


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## GranvilleGSD (Mar 28, 2007)

Could there have been something on the tv that triggered him? I noticed that your scenarios all seemed to involve watching the tv, perhaps a commercial or something? Don't know, just throwing it out there.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

What I see is you are watching TV. What's happening on TV? Could you try a couple of nights without it?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

if i were you, and your daughter were my daughter, i would NEVER trust this dog. i don't want to venture an opinion on the solution to the problem, but i am so sorry. imho, you have a really dangerous situation on your hands.

i would also caution you to seek treatment immediately for any dog bite which breaks the skin, no matter how small. it can be tiny and look harmless for a number of days, then quickly turn to life threatening cellulitis requiring IV antibiotic treatment and hospitalization. it happened to me.

take care, be careful...


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Get rid of the dog. You don't love it, yet, and all it takes is one good swipe at your daughter to do something irreparable. There is something wrong with this dog. My daughter is 9 and I would never let a dog like you describe near her again. You might get good money for the dog at a junkyard in search of a good deterrent. Sorry, so blunt, but let's call a spade a spade.


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## doggonefool (Apr 15, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: katielizif i were you, and your daughter were my daughter, i would NEVER trust this dog. i don't want to venture an opinion on the solution to the problem, but i am so sorry. imho, you have a really dangerous situation on your hands.


Unfortunately, I have to agree. I hate to give up on a dog; this dog, though lovable, sounds like a huge liability. Your daughter has to be your priority. A dog with issues like this takes massive amounts of time and training. We have a rescue that attacks like that, but we have no kids at home anymore. We muzzle her on the occasion that people come to the house, or when we take her to the vet. 

The right thing is to protect your daughter, no dog is worth endangering her. Good luck, no matter what you decide.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If you are going to do anything, please be humane. 

If this dog is exhibiting aggression (I have no idea what kind of behavior it is via the internet-for all I know the dog learned this is how you get humans to play-or it could be a dog with severe issues-or anything in between) and you return the dog to the people who lied about it, they will just lie to someone else. 

I would want the dog evaluated, etc. like you can get at a vet teaching hospital-to see what the deal was. 

If the dog is going to be okay, great. 

If not, we need to let the dog go with love, understanding it's not their fault that someone created them like this-either nature or nurture or both. 

But it is important not to let a dog who truly does have an issue go to someone else who may mistreat it. 

If you can find a respected trainer/behaviorist in your area to evaluate that might help. 

Good luck. Sorry that this is happening to you, your family, and that dog.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI say your daughter is priority. Call the previous owner and see if they fess up to his ways. How very sad for all of you. I hope this can be worked out, and I give your daughter credit for even going near him after the 2nd time.


We are good friends with the previous owners. I did talk to them about it. They swear up and down this does not sound like him and he has never done this to them. Tasha is really upset by how he is acting and she was apologizing over and over.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThis sounds both strange and serious. Is your daughter moving or making any sound in particular when this happens? Something is not right at all and it does sound dangerous for your daughter.
> 
> Clearly something is triggering this behavior but it could be medical (not sure what though) or he could have a bad association with children on a couch. Has it always happened at the same time and in the same place?


Two times were on the couch and one time was in our bed. All three times we were watching tv at around 8pm.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANIf you are going to do anything, please be humane.
> 
> If this dog is exhibiting aggression (I have no idea what kind of behavior it is via the internet-for all I know the dog learned this is how you get humans to play-or it could be a dog with severe issues-or anything in between) and you return the dog to the people who lied about it, they will just lie to someone else.
> 
> ...


Without a doubt we will treat him in the most humane way possible. We are animal lovers. We would never do anything to harm him or put him in a situation to harm someone else. My next door neighbor is a police officer. I'm going to speak to him tonight and see if he knows anyone in a K-9 unit that may want to adopt him and get him police training. I will fully disclose all his actions.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

First, do not give this young dog the chance to dominate or hurt you daughter.

I think the dog has problems and I would look at a two prong approach. First is medical, there is a thread medical issue that can cause aggression. So you need a Vet check and full blood work up. Also you need to know what vaccinations where given and when. 

Next would be putting this pup and a program of NILF, Nothing In Life is Free. This pup earns everything. Sits before going out the door and never never is he allowed to go out the door first. Next he has to sit before he gets food or any attention.

Since I am not there I can't say if it is medical or a behavioral problem, like having too much freedom. Really stong willed young dogs will try to take over, they start at the lowest ranking member in the pack or the smallest. 

9 months old is the time when males will start to show their macho dominance. I don't suggest theing like pinning or rolling this dog, but major control, teethered to you or your wife or crated. 

Since he is new in your home and 9 months old, IMHO you have him WAY WAY too much freedom. After the first incident he would be either crated or teethered to me. Since all occurances happened at night then I would make sure that the dog is safely in his crate at night until he learns how things work in YOUR house.

I am not sure this dog is a candidate for Police work.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

Ok so this doesn't really solve the problem but I was wondering if the three incidents happened waching tv at 8 o clock, maybe you could try crating the dog at 730....see if his reaction is happening on time, if it does then try without the tv.....the next thing to try would be to remove your daughter from the equation. maybe have her stay at a friends house or something and see hs reaction while watching tv at 8. This blows my mind.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

Oh and another thought, could he be "dominating/correcting" your daughter, possesive of her, and reacting to teach her it is not ok (in the dog's opinion) to be close to another pack member?


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Full blood workup, full thyroid panel, I'm not sure if there are any tests for it but check for epilepsy. 

Does your daughter play dress up and wear any kind of perfume or body spritz? Any type of hygiene product that no one else in the family uses? Was she wearing the same color/style of clothes at each incident? 

If everything medically is ruled out, as people have already posted I would revoke ALL freedoms this dog has and get with a QUALIFIED behaviorist to work with and supervise the training program. If he's allowed on any furniture, revoke all those privileges. Set up a gate so he can no longer go down the hallway with the bedrooms, notably the hallway leading to your daughter's bedroom. Limit his access in the house to the living room and kitchen. NO BEDROOMS. Access is a privilege, not a right. Hand feed him in exchange for obedience. Have your daughter do some of the feeding and obedience commands while you securely hold the dog by a leash. She should toss the food to him so she remains out of Kaiser's reach. If he does not sit or down for her, he does not get his handfuls of food. Before you begin the feeding session, she should eat something in front of Kaiser, even if it is just a bite. The bosses always eat first.







If your daughter is to interact with the dog, an adult capable of controlling Kaiser should have him on a short leash so Kaiser cannot get at her. Please remember that while you need to have a firm grip, you must not maintain a tight lead as this will communicate insecurity and potential problems to the dog, making things worse. If Kaiser is somewhere in the room where your daughter wants to walk, she must make Kaiser move (with your assistance). 

If Kaiser goes up to ANY of you to solicit petting, IGNORE HIM. Petting is on YOUR terms. If anyone wants to pet Kaiser, they should call Kaiser to them, pet him, then send him off. Same with playtime. It's okay for dogs to initiate playtime but this is a special case so at the very minimum, if he wants to initiate play, make him work for it by doing a few minutes of obedience first. Long downs, where your dog holds a down for an extended period of time, is a great command for leadership and control purposes. 

If you're really concerned, and this might not be a bad idea, you can muzzle Kaiser with a wire basket muzzle while you and your daughter work with him. If he flips out he won't be able to bite her if it's a properly fitted and worn muzzle.

Remember, please perform all these under the guidance of a qualified behaviorist. We cannot properly advise you without being there and seeing the context of the situation and the dog's body language. Anything you attempt based on our advice is at your own risk. Please consult a professional. End legal disclaimer.











> Quote:I'm going to speak to him tonight and see if he knows anyone in a K-9 unit that may want to adopt him and get him police training.


I have to agree with Val here. You can have the dog evaluated by someone qualified like a schutzhund training director or a police K9 training director, someone who seriously tests the dog. A dog like this may be a very strong dog, a very sick dog, or simply not right in the head. You and Kaiser both need a professional to deal with this situation. Good luck, keep us posted. Remember to err on the side of caution and if you decide that Kaiser is not a good match, please be aware that rehoming might not be possible. Rescues typically do not take dogs with bite records and if you rehome him privately and he bites, the liability could fall on you. If Kaiser needs to leave, you'll likely have only one option.







Like Jean said, please be thoughtful and humane.


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## Papanapa (Mar 1, 2008)

This is a very scary situation. I do believe that I would not have this dog in my home with my children. The next time could be the face. My cousin had a dog bite her sons ear off (plastic surgery was required twice). She ended up keeping the dog and when he bit second time (requiring stitches for the child) 

Be safe. Sometimes there is nothing you can do and have to just say "enough".


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerFirst, do not give this young dog the chance to dominate or hurt you daughter.
> 
> I think the dog has problems and I would look at a two prong approach. First is medical, there is a thread medical issue that can cause aggression. So you need a Vet check and full blood work up. Also you need to know what vaccinations where given and when.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I know he has 1 shot left. They were going to get us his shot info. No matter what we decide I will still control his every move over the next few days/weeks.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

If you give us you general location either here in the thread or in your profile maybe we can steer you to someone who is competient with GSD's to help you.

For you Profile, at the top you will see "My Stuff", in there you will see My Profile, you can put in your town and state or general area in your state.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerIf you give us you general location either here in the thread or in your profile maybe we can steer you to someone who is competient with GSD's to help you.
> 
> For you Profile, at the top you will see "My Stuff", in there you will see My Profile, you can put in your town and state or general area in your state.


Ah yes. Sorry about that. I forgot to finish updating my Info. I live in The Woodlands, Tx. About 30 miles north of downtown Houston.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Bad LS1, I posted in finding a trainer section for you.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=959310&page=0#Post959310

Val


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## Vertigo75 (Jul 11, 2006)

If you don't mind me asking, what was the reason your friends decided to give this dog up?


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerBad LS1, I posted in finding a trainer section for you.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=959310&page=0#Post959310
> 
> Val


will read thanks.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Vertigo75If you don't mind me asking, what was the reason your friends decided to give this dog up?


My buddy told his wife she could get a dog if she took care of it. He really isn't a dog person. She got the pup and after 6 months or so she realized it was just too much for her to deal with a 9 month old GSD a 5 year old son and a 3 year old daughter. She is a stay at home mom and he works crazy hours 6 days a week.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

How are things going?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Please don't mess around with you daughter's safety - this is trouble waiting to happen - again.

Whatever the reason, the dog does not have the temperament to be trusted with children.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i'm wondering how things are going also...


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Bad LS1We are good friends with the previous owners. I did talk to them about it. They swear up and down this does not sound like him and he has never done this to them. Tasha is really upset by how he is acting and she was apologizing over and over.


They may very well be telling the truth, maybe the dog never did act improperly with them. I don't mean to be out of line, but a true good friend would have offered on the spot, first time they heard about this, to take the dog back. 

Is it at all possible that your daughter perhaps in adjusting her placement on the floor/couch whatever, is accidentally pinching the dog's skin to the floor or in some way hurting the dog and not even realizing it? Do you supervise ALL TIME every single minute with your daughter & the dog (and I don't mean just being in the same room). She's 3 years old, at that age they don't always have a comprehension of what causes pain. She could be doing anything at all (that you are not seeing if you are not watching every single second) that will cause the dog to react badly but the dog is in reality reacting to pain and/or protecting itself. 

If we don't see what happens immediately prior to the dog's behavior exploding we don't know what it is that's setting it off. It's a little late for that now because you can't trust the dog with your little one so observation is not recommended. This is unfortunate because the possibility exists that it could be a very simple fix. Some of the responses could be right in that it's something on the tv triggering this as well.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Hmmm, do you see a bit of theme here? Two families both with a 3yo daughter? Kids do things when we are not looking that aren't always nice. I'm not saying YOUR daughter did, but she could and so could the other people's daughter. I can't believe if this dog acted like this with their child that they turn the dog over to a family friend with a same age child KNOWING the dog had issues. 

So, on top of looking at medical #1, then the time frame, situation, surroundings, what's on tv etc when this happens ... please keep an open mind to a child doing or having done something to the dog that would even so much as startle it. Dog could have been in a deep sleep and if it gets startled especially in a new home it could react badly. 

Although this behavior does seem wayyyy over the top and dangerous. I guess I get a little sick and tired of the general public always automatically blaming the dog. Not that you are, I don't mean it that way, but now I lean towards finding out what's the cause of the behavior before just automatically blaming the dog. I'm definitely no expert but far as I know, without something having triggering it or the dog having some kind of medical or physically psychotic problems, dogs just don't out of the blue jump up and start biting.

**** I definitely agree with whoever mentioned a muzzle!****

Then you could do some much better testing and observing and keep your child safe at the same time.


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

I agree with you. This person has a young daughter and the dog has been aggressive not once, but three times. As for comments about the TV, the daughter's clothes, and frankly the NILIF approach I do not agree.

There are things the OP could do to change the dog's behavior, but in this situation I do not think it is worth the risk. Heck, if the dog was closer I would take it. However, in a family with kids something terrible could happen. 

Please re-home the dog.

Hopefully, the OP can find a good home for the dog.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Riley's Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Bad LS1We are good friends with the previous owners. I did talk to them about it. They swear up and down this does not sound like him and he has never done this to them. Tasha is really upset by how he is acting and she was apologizing over and over.
> ...


I agree that a good friend would offer to take him back. I would if I gave a dog away and it did this. Unfortunately they are not offering to take him back. Maybe we aren't as good of friends as I thought. 

You may have misread my posts. My daughter is 9 (almost 10). She does not do anything to Kaiser to provoke him. We keep him on his leash at all times now when he is out of the crate. His behavior hasn't changed towards her. We have had him a week now. We have decided to try and find him a new home with someone that does not have kids. We simply do not want to take a chance. We have too many kids around our house for a pup that acts like this.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Timber1I agree with you. This person has a young daughter and the dog has been aggressive not once, but three times. As for comments about the TV, the daughter's clothes, and frankly the NILIF approach I do not agree.
> 
> There are things the OP could do to change the dog's behavior, but in this situation I do not think it is worth the risk. Heck, if the dog was closer I would take it. However, in a family with kids something terrible could happen.
> 
> ...


We like him a lot and do do my daughters. We have tried multiple things with him to see if we could keep his mind busy. He had a good day and night saturday. We had him outside ALL day doing stuff with us. My daughter (one he attacks) worked with him all day. He was great. She is the only one to feed and water him now. She tells him to sit (he does) she fills his food and water, then tells him EAT. He gets up and eats/drinks. Saturday we bring him in at 8pm and put him in his crate. He was calm and slept all night. Sunday morning my I'm getting him ready to go outside. My daughter is at the kitchen table and he just starts barking at her. I had him on his leash and secure. Didn't really matter. He just kept going after her. This was minutes after she just fed him and petted him. I'm lost.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

I have followed your thread but did not post because my opinion is a very unpopular one. If the vet could find nothing wrong with the dog and you have taken the time to consult a behaviorist and still no luck I would humanely put the pup down.

This dog is young, so the chances of him having multiple homes is high. I personally would not want to have to worry that someone down the road will not be as conscientious as you, and give the new owners the full history of the dog. I can't possibly see how your daughter could provoke this behavior in a dog. 

There is a problem with the dog.

I would also see if you can't get your daughter to have some positive interaction with dogs so that this incident does not create future fears.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I don't believe the dog had a work up at the vet...or a behavioralist consulted.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

I would not put the dog down unless it has been seen by a professional trainer and Veterinarian. 
It is very unlikely that this behavior is unexplainable, especially in a 9 month old dog. Not that it doesn't happen, but it very rare, and I think that without someone knowledgable around to help, it is easier to say the dog is crazy should be put to sleep.
At least if a trainer or rescue was contacted the dog would have a chance to be evaluated. As well as a medical check, that could very well be a contributing factor.

What issues were the previous owners having that the dog was too much work for them? Did you ever see them or their children interact with the dog before bringing him home?

Even as there are many experienced people on this board, it is impossible to give you sound advice without seeing the situation and the dog, especially since it may be that his life is at risk. 

One week is still a short period of time for the dog to adjust your home fully. Since the first 9 months of his life history is also a variable it is difficult to say what is going on. Resource guarding, etc. 

I would seek professional assistance, or a reputable rescue to help, and a Veterinarian, before making any decisions regarding euthansia.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

I agree MTAussie


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

It seems that he has also shown some other behavior that is questionable towards males in extended family when first brought home. OP, can you give details on these situations? He is also charging the door at people outside:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...true#Post957425


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

*I did point out that he need to see a vet and a behaviorists before **making any decisions.* But I tell you if I had a dog that behaved like this, I would NOT re-home the dog. How could you live with yourself if you did re-home a dog with an aggresion issue with children and something happened?

A person cannot properly re-home a dog like this on their own. It is a disaster waiting to happen. And I know most rescues where I am will not touch human aggressive dogs. Way to much liability. 

I am the fist to speak up for a dog, but there are so many irresponsible people in the world, now just give them an aggressive dog, then you can read about them in the paper.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

If you adopt a dog, and don't plan to do what it takes if you end up in over your head or the worst happens, it is very unfair to the dog, esp. to jump to euthanasia. 
Rehoming to someone that is inexperienced, I agree, is irresponsible and unethical. 
But there *are* other options than rehoming on craigslist or putting down.
It is just dangerous to throw out there on a board that the dog should be put down, even if you mention the dog should be seen by a professional trainer and tested medically, because often that will be by-passed and the dog will be euthanized before it's given a chance. 
Again, we have no idea what is going on, and as a trainer, I have seen over and over many people are not able to read their dog or see things that are contributing to their dog's behavior that a professional may catch right away. Not that it is their fault, that is why they hire a trainer, and are trying to learn.
Sometimes euthansia is required, but that is a long way down the road from here, and there are a lot of stops before we reach that point.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

I am not jumping to anything. I am trying to make sure that he understands that you don't just re-home a dog like this. He did say he was going to re-home the dog. How is that you think he is planning on doing this? As far as I can see no vet or behaviorist was consulted up until now. do you just hope the next owner is willing to pour hundreds possibly thousands of dollars into this dog? The dog clearly has aggresion issues. 

So he is trying to find the dog a new home without kids, but what about neighbor kids or nieces and nephews, maybe where you live there is an abundance of great dog owners but where I live they are few and far between. 

I try to stress responsible dog ownership. Part of being a responsible dog owner is to look at the future of the dog.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

Just to clear a few things up. No we have not taken him to the vet or a professional trainer yet. Yes he is aggressive and barks at the windows/doors when he sees someone outside. If they come in and talk to him he does settle down. If they do no address him he keeps barking until we can drag him away from the window into another room. 

I have to admit that we only paid $200 for him. We thought we were getting a great dog at a great price. I knew it was going to be a lot of work and I was ready to pay for training. What I don't think I'm ready for mentally or financially is to pay for extensive vet testing and professional training only for them to say "sorry he isn't going to change". 

I do not want to see him put down. I also refuse to give him to a family with kids. We are really stuck here because this really limits what we can do with him. Boy what a mess!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

These incidents occur when your daughter is not paying attention to him, correct? She's watching tv, she's eating, she is not playing with the pup. Does he otherwise seem to be very interested in her?

Does she play rough with him? Tug of war or anything?

I'm asking becuase my 8 month old pup used to do this thing where I would play with him for while then go watch TV. He'd sit calmly for a while, maybe 10 minutes then he'd jump on the couch and start chewing on me. Not vicious, trying to play rough (I do wrestle with him). He knocked that off about a month ago when I started telling him, OK time to go outside then time for pupper to goto bed.

Did you ask your friends for the dogs' vet records? You should get them. Take the dog to the same vet and tell the vet what is going on. There might be a medical reason. Or the vet might shake his head and tell you something you might not want to hear. 



> Quote:We thought we were getting a great dog at a great price.


no such thing. just like there's no such thing as getting all the car for less than all the money. in both situations, there's always more there than what was presented when the deal was done.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

This sounds very strange. He is nice to the child all day, obeys commands, and then suddenly...

I was wondering what the experience of the OP is with GSDs, especially (older) puppies. 

GSDs can be very nippy and mouthy, and extremely rough in the process, owners often confuse this with aggression. Is it possible that the puppy gets excited when, in his opinion, things are too quiet in the home and starts acting nutty, barky and nippy. They are big, powerful dogs that can do a lot of damage with play-biting and mouthing. He may have designated 
the daughter as the playmate and is acting like a nut to get her attention and get her to play with him rather than watch TV. It may be that some child in the previous home riled him up to play rough and the daughter reminds him of that situation. When I was growing up, I had a Maltese, who would get riled up and nip me to get me to play with him, he would not try this with my parents, I was his designated playmate.

It is hard to say anything about this without witnessing the problem in person. I wonder if it would be possible to videotape this situation. I would definitely consult a trainer who is experienced with strong, working breeds.

We recently had an older pup returned, he likes to pull on the leash in the tug-of-war style with play-growling, and the person who adopted him thought that he was aggressive and was afraid of him.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Rebel articulated what I'm thinking much better!


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I would not jump to PTS this dog, nor would I try to re-home. 

I didn't go back and read all the posts, but did this dog bite a child in the previous home?

I keep seeing a pattern, around 8:30 at night, is that correct? The last incident was after your daughter had played with him all day, she has been feeding and giving water and the dog is responding to her commands. Just wondering if she told him to lay down or knock it off when he is firing off if he would respond. It might be that he is trying to get her to pay attention to him and play with him.

It might be a cumulative thing, where the dog is getting tired and is just thin nerved enough that he over-reacts. 

I would have a thyroid panel done, I would have his eye sight checked. My one female is way more reactive at night in lower light situations than she is in the day.

I think before you would jump to PTS you need to get a complete blood work up done, consult a qualified trainer or behaviorist. If you can't do that in your budget and IF the dog doesn't have a bit history, then contact a Rescue and see if they could help you place the dog in a home with no children. Then if ALL that fails then your options would be to keep working with the dog or PTS.

Val


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Rebel, you may have hit the nail on the head. Obviously a person can wind up wtih a dog that has a screw loose and is aggressive for no apprarent reason. Without any statistics, my guess is that this would be a very rare thing to happen. These people COULD have wound up with the one in a million dog that isn't playing with a full deck. 

What you say, Rebel, makes a whole lot more sense and I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Since I got Riley, I myself have been faced with an unexpected whole new world of dog-ownership. Most of it's been absolutey fantastic, but there's a few issues that I was NOT prepared for that are upsetting. I have owned dogs all my life, there are days that Riley does something that makes me wonder where the heck *I* was all those years, LOL!

Bad LS1 - I most definitely can understand a shortage of cash and not being mentally prepared for a dog that may need unexpected medical testing or treatment. It would upset me too get a new dog, thinking it's healthy and has good temperament only to find out it looks like it's got issues that could be potentially dangerous. This is actually what happened to me. But through trial and error, help from this board, research and a few other things, I have found that my dog is JUST BEING A DOG and more accurately a GERMAN SHEPHERD dog and on top of that a DOMINANT personality GSD with self-confidence issues. You have no idea how grateful I am to have found all that out because NOW I have a base to work with and more importantly things make sense. 

I'm 55 years old and over the past 2+ years I've found out that even having lived with dogs all my life, I didn't know diddly squat about what I need to know ABOUT GSDs. One thing I've learned is that dog is a dog is a dog TO A POINT and then their are detours. I feel like I've been asleep or something all these years and that Riley has woke me from this deep sleep. I have a lot of work to do to learn things, but what a weight off my shoulders! I now understand why some rescues say "experienced GSD family ONLY" kind of thing for some of the dogs they are trying to find homes for. That used to make me mad to read, but no more!

Could you possibly contact a GSD rescue in your area, explain what's going on and ask if there isn't someone experienced that would be willing to come over and spend a few hours with your pup AND your daughter watching how the dog is acting around her? They may have to spend the day with you or at least several hours and particularly during the time that seems to be the witching hour when he displays the behavior you have described. They may have someone willing to do this for a very low fee or even if you're willing to make a cash donation to their rescue or maybe you could make a trade. A few hours of their time and wisdom and perhaps in exchange you could walk some of their dogs a few times, or help get them bathed or something, a donation of time and manual labor instead of cash is what I'm trying to say. If it were me, I would have two different experienced GSD people come to observe at different times/dates so that I could get two different objective opinions. These people just might be able to save you a bunch of money in vet testing or in making a huge mistake.

If you can't get anyone from a rescue to help you, what about setting up a video camera, catch the action on video and post it for others here to view? If you don't have a place to post it and you don't want it on YouTube (I know I wouldn't) PM me, I can help with that. I can put it on a private page on Riley's site for people here to view and help.

Now, what is it that you, your wife and daughter do immediately AFTER your pup does what he does? This can be VERY important because if he's getting ANY kind of attention for it that he considers to be a reward - he's learning that this is what he's supposed to do. In other words you're training him to do something you don't want him to do but you don't see this happening because you're human. You may not realize what you're doing but his behavior is reinforced by whatever happens after he does something. This is a suggestion, IF your daughter can do this (she's pretty young but I think my granddaughter at 10 could have so maybe yours could too) next time pup acts up (or you think he is) have her just as calmly as possible, no words, no reaction, no nothing - get up from the couch and walk away ignoring the pup. Sometimes to a dog attention is attention no matter if it's the right attention or not. Your family members could be feeding his negative actions when you don't even realize it.

We didn't have a whole lot of luck with a behaviorist, although if I could get Cesar Millan, I would welcome his help. I just think this particular behaviorist wasn't all she's hyped up to be OR as an experienced GSD friend told me, she's not seen behaviorists have a whole lot of luck with working class dogs, especially those with dominance issues. I think it depends on the behaviorist as I know there HAS to be some excellent ones out there.

What you MAY have is just a German Shepherd pup and if you are not experienced in the GSD breed (and some others) you may not realize what is really going on. At 9mos MAYBE he's testing his dominance. Everyone in the family needs to ban together, decide on how you're going to do this and this and that and that when it comes to the dog and everyone MUST be consistent and do NOT let him get away with anything. My two are constanty testing me. Riley is one that if you give him an inch, he'll take a mile. Having an almost 10 year old I'm sure you know that that works, LOL!

*** Please for your daughter's safety until you figure out what's going on or what you're going to do, muzzle the pup when she's around. Just make sure he can either drink on his own with it on or that you give him drink-breaks often. ***

FANTASTIC idea to have your daughter become the leader of his pack, hand feeding and all that you're doing - absolutely fantastic!

One thing that could make this worse is IF anyone in your family is afraid of the pup at all. If they are, pup will know it. To a dog, fear is weakness, dogs don't like weakness and some will attack weakness.

About the medical costs ... we look at it this way ... when adopting a dog it's no different than having or adopting a human baby. If our child needed to go to the Doc and we didn't have insurance, we certainly aren't going to find a new home for our child. We find the money somewhere. Perhaps you could set aside or get a credit card that is dedicated just for dog emergencies (used for nothing else so you don't run it up and #1 have trouble paying the monthly bills and worse #2 max it out so there's nothing available for if you do need it for the dog) or get some pet insurance or both.

As for the friendship - I don't think they lied to you but I also don't think they're such good friends as you may have thought. I feel that withholding *known* information although not an outright lie, it is dishonest and a basis for mistrust to grow. They could be completely innocent and just not good thinkers, but that to me would be on the rare side.


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## ThreeDogs (Mar 16, 2007)

Again, I am NOT JUMPING to putting the dog to 

This is his first post, please read it as I did and you will understand why I feel so strongly that he not re-home this dog.




> Originally Posted By: Bad LS1The problems start.........
> 
> Saturday night I'm sitting on the couch and my daughter is sitting next to me. Kaiser our new pup is sitting on the floor in front of my daughter. All is quiet and calm. All of he sudden he just starts barking, jumps up into my daughters lap and goes nuts trying to bite her. I grab him but before I can get him off her he bites her on the hand. *Once I got him off he keeps trying to attack.* It took everything I had to hold him back and drag him into the other room.


Can you see the word attack in that paragraph? 



> Originally Posted By: Bad LS1Sunday night it happens again. All day he is great with everyone. My daughter is laying on our bed watching tv. My wife is sitting by her at the computer. Kaiser is laying on the floor by his crate. My wife says all of the sudden he starts barking, jumps up into my daughters face and a*ttacks her AGAIN! This time my wife couldn't get over there quick enough and he bit her on the arm leaving teeth marks and a big bruise. She got him off and he kept barking and being aggressive until she drug him out of the room. *





> Originally Posted By: Bad LS1EXACT SAME THING AS SATURDAY. Me and her are on the couch. He starts barking, jumps up and starts attaching her. I'm quicker this time and he does not get to her. This was the worst case yet. *He is absolutely going nuts trying to get her. It was like he just lost his mind and would not stop.* I had to drag him out of the room. It was so bad that my daughter went to her room and shut the door. He ran to her room and was barking and trying to get in. I finally had to put him in his crate to calm him down.





> Originally Posted By: Bad LS1*All three incidents there was no growling or warning. He went from 0 to full blown attack within seconds. *


The dog has bitten the child twice, what happens if the parent is in the bathroom and the dog attacks, how much damage does a dog need to do before people get scared?

I've said he needs a vet workup AND a behaviorists, but it seems he is unwilling to do this. His solution is to re-home this dog. To me that is not a solution that is like putting a weapon in someone's hands.

Of course it would be wonderful if he found someone to take the dog that could handle it but in reality what are the odds?


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Since it's always like around 8-8:30ish, I think it was some action from the "friends" you bought him from that conditioned him. Maybe they kicked him out at 8pm or the kids got real rough playing/teasing him when the parents were doing something at that time (showers, bed, cooking dinner, not paying attention)? Something about that time frame and a child has him wired to be Mr. Pissy when that time rolls around.

I don't know if I believe your friend's story for getting rid of the dog...not to sound condensending, but did you ever see the dog at their house? Was it part of the family? Was it outside alot? Did you see their kids interact with it?

Did they approach you and say they wanted to sell their dog? Have they had dogs in the past? 

I know it seems like a lot of questions, but I think the past with that family is where these problems, if they're behavioral not medical, started.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

There may be a lot of _hypothetical_ reasons for this dog's behavior... <u>none of which will help the OP's daughter </u> after she in injured.

I wouldn't take the chance with my child.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

True, but since it doesn't sound like they're on their way to drop the dog off at the pound in five seconds, _it would be good to know _or pinpoint what may cause this behavior. The fact that it happens at the same time everyday looks like it may be some sort of behavioral problem, and pinpointing the history could help prevent it from happening any time soon.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Another thing to remember is this is a fairly young pup. At 9 mos things can be corrected easier than w/ an older dog.


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## BLK GSD (Mar 19, 2004)

i agree with DianaM reply from another post of yours..your dog needs full medical work done and neutering sooner then waiting...



> Quote:2) A lot of people advocate neutering when they are fully mature. If you want neutering to have an impact on his behavior (calm him down a bit), neuter anytime between now (greatest effect) until about two years of age (least effect or no effect).


iam not saying this will stop this behavior but it will claim him down before he develops more issuse...maybe since your friends wont take the dog back they will be willing to give your money back so you can put it towards your cost of neutering or med work or behavior or training you may need for dog..i really dont think they did right by the dog not giving it what it needed as a pup. socailation or basic training..etc. etc. it sounds like they sold you thier problem..if they cared they might just give your money back to help with the dog...my prayers are with you..good luck to you..


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## dd (Jun 10, 2003)

I have no idea what is going on with this dog, but I would caution that in reading the OP's account we are interpreting words that are expressing a subjective impression. I gather from the post that the bites that are described did not in fact break the skin, since medical attention is not mentioned. So in fact it's not really a "bite" - i.e. the dog is mouthing and maybe nipping, but not biting. I think if the dog were trying to attack aggressively, you would have seen some serious damage.

One way to interpret the post - and again, I'm not saying this is correct, but one way to look at it - is that this dog is completely unsocialised, has had no training, does not understand his strength and is trying to initiate rough play with a pack member, not realising how inappropriate his behaviour is.

I can assure you that my dogs come back with scratches and bruises and tooth marks after they have been wrestling - they see it as part of the fun and give us puzzled looks when we dictate "time-outs" because things seem to be getting out of hand. Obviously this is not appropriate play with a human but it could be your pup has never had the right signals to help him understand what IS appropriate

Just another possible point of view.


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## Bad LS1 (Feb 2, 2009)

All, I have read all your posts and thought about them fully. Sorry I didn't have the time to reply to all (work and working with Kaiser). I honestly think we are not getting the whole story from our "friends". Unfortunately we never saw how the dog acted in their home. We live across town form each other and they come over to our house mostly. Anyway after 12 days the situation has not changed with him. I would almost say that he is pushing back the more my daughter tries to control him. While I completely agree with what most are saying and me wanting to try and figure out what is wrong here, I am now dealing with my daughter getting scared when he moves wrong and also my WIFE getting jumpy/scared when he gets aggressive. 

A friend of mine that is in his mid 30's, single, and no kids has stepped up and agreed to take Kaiser for us. He is going to work with him and see if he can get aggression under control at his house. He has a 2 year old female GSD also. He's familiar with the dogs and understands how they can be. 

It was mentioned earlier that Kaiser will sense the fear if someone is scared of him. Having the wife and daughter scared and looking for me to control him wasn't a good situation at all. Thanks for everyone's input. I learned a LOT by this thread. We aren't going to let this situation tarnish our views of GSD's and will most likely look for a reputable breeder and start fresh with a pup of our own that we can raise and train with our family from day one.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I am glad there was an open door for Kaiser. I hope he does well w/ this new situation and thanks for updating us. Though, he should still have some medical testing. Does your friend know about this forum? Maybe have him read the suggestions on this thread to better help Kaiser.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

That's great that it seems you've found a good option for Kaiser. I hope he does great!

I'm sorry about what your family went through...it's so odd, and I still suspect there is something the "friends" aren't telling you. But, live and learn. I hope you continue to look at GSDs. They are awesome animals!


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## staxi2 (Oct 18, 2007)

This is bringing flash backs of my Rocky,he would attack out of no where.You could be sitting there,walking by him etc. and he would attack.I watched him closely for signs,things that would trigger him anything.Never saw anything,He went from 0 to attack,and afterwards he was your bestfriend.After he got my daughter afew times,her friend,them me( thank got i got the worst attack ever).I had to make the decision to remove him from the house,he was uncontrolable and unsafe.Be careful and make the right decision for your family first.I will always love and miss my rock-a-doodle but I know he was not able to be saved.(he was a rescue)My thoughts are with you.


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