# Take the puppy?...or not?



## Craig Caughlin (Oct 17, 2007)

I'll try to be brief.


I purchased a Female puppy in 2007 from a breeder whose name many of you would recognize, but shall remain nameless. She breeds American GSD and some of her dogs have been crowned Grand Champion, etc.


At 10 months old, "Alexis" (see attached photos) developed EPI and the breeder offered to replace her. We declined the offer to replace her and we loved and cared for her until we had to say good-bye in 2017 (May 27, to be exact) as she had developed inoperable spleen cancer. In 2009, my Wife and I rescued a little Female GSD ("Jazzy") from our local shelter. Jazzy is, we're guessing, 10-11 and we love her but she's got some arthritis, so she doesn't get around too well. Fair mobility...but not good.


After losing Alexis, I contacted the breeder in July 2017 and asked if she would still (after nearly 10 years) "replace" her. The breeder said she would review her file on us but likely would offer us another dog, when a litter came available. I fully offered to buy a puppy from her if she chose not to replace my dog, I would accept her decision.


Fast forward to yesterday when I received an e-mail from the breeder who has a Male puppy available she has posted a YouTube video of. She said "you can get a FAST short glimpse of the boy with the blaze.....not a lot....sorry. Some breeders that have had it before in their litters tell us it will fade away....but I don't think so as the pup is pretty dark.... other than that he would be the show male in the litter." The Male she is offering us, free of charge, has this "blaze" (a sort of white marking) between his eyes and slightly down his muzzle. I know nothing about this marking.


Considering Jazzy's limited mobility, *I* thought it might be best to decline the puppy at this time. *I* think the puppy might be too hard on Jazzy, and I don't want that. I want Jazzy to live out her life as best we can make it and I'm worried a puppy might beat the snot out of her, if you know what I mean.


I can tell the breeder thinks I'm making a mistake and I sense this might be my only chance as she will soon be "retiring" from dog breeding.


Am I making a mistake by not grabbing this Male while I have a chance? Am I right that it might be too much for Jazzy?


What would you do?


Thank you,
Craig


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## Judy Untamed (Oct 26, 2018)

Awww, I think Jazzy has a GREAT family and friend in you! She's lovely! 

If you're willing to pay for the puppy, then it seems that money (and the fact that the pup would be "free") is not that big of a deal for you. If that's the case, then I see no reason why you shouldn't feel comfortable waiting until Jazzy has passed on. A "free" puppy doesn't mean it's the RIGHT puppy or the right time. So I don't think you should feel guilty or feel like you're "missing out" by not taking it at this time. There will always be great pups available. 

That said...if you really feel like this is the right pup for you, you can always try to make sure you've got your home set up to keep the dogs separate (or mostly always separate) from each other so the energetic puppy can't stress her out, or make her feel like she's losing her best friend to the "new dog" in the house.


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## Craig Caughlin (Oct 17, 2007)

Thank you Judy...I appreciate your thoughts and feedback.


P.S. The photos are of "Alexis" - my Female I lost to spleen cancer. She WAS gorgeous and had a beautiful gait!


Craig


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

What I have noticed with my older dogs, is that a puppy can bring a fresh spark and revitalization in to their lives. If you decide to bring him home, monitoring them, and judicial separation will be important. We had a Yorkie when we brought Tessa home, so we really had to keep a close eye on their interaction. Our little one was physically fit but the size difference was important. I'm sorry to hear about your Alexis passing and Jazzy's health problems.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

It's do-able Craig, but constant monitoring & separating as Ksotto said. 



I've been at it now for 9 months! lol It did give my old girl an extra spark though!


I do know someone else from this site that could not handle the new pup being all over their older and sent the pup back to the breeder.


Best of luck in your decision.


Moms


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## crittersitter (Mar 31, 2011)

It's hard to believe that any breeder would "replace" a dog that lived 10 years. That's pretty much a full life for a GSD, about 10-12 years. I lost two last year that were 11 & 12 and know how painful it is. I am sorry for your loss. As far as getting a puppy that would be fine but I would not keep a 10-11 year old GSD with the puppy. It would be awfully unfair to the old dog and make their life miserable. I brought in a two puppies in the last two years when I had 3 old dogs. The puppies drove them crazy. I basically set up an old dog and puppy routine where they just weren't together period. I still have one old dog, age 15 1/2 and two youngsters. Age 3 and 1. The 3 year old is with the old dog when inside but the 1 year old is still separated from my old dog. It would not be fair to him to be forced to endure the youngster. In the wild the old dogs don't take care of the youngsters. Good luck in whatever you do.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

What a beautiful girl she was! I wouldn't expect a breeder to replace a dog at no charge that you had for 10 years. I'm surprised that after all this time she's offering. Sadly, it sounds like she had hemangiosarcoma, which is not uncommon in GSDs. 

Only you can say whether Jazzy could handle a puppy right now. If there's any doubt, I'd be inclined to wait until after she's gone, unless there's some compelling reason to get this particular puppy, aside from the "free" factor. If she's just slowing down and may have a couple more pretty good years, she might do fine with a puppy. If she's possibly down to her final few months, then it's probably best to give her all the time and attention she deserves for the duration and take a pass on the puppy. But that's an assessment that other people are not going to be able to make for you since none of us is there to observe her. 

We got Cava last May at 4-1/2 months old, and Keefer turned 13 in August. She's got a lot of energy and is pretty rambunctious sometimes, but she adores him. I think he mostly tolerates her, lol. But he is used to having doggy company so it may have helped him to have her around when we lost Halo in June. She had DM, and with Keefer's advancing age we thought there was a very good possibility we would lose both of them last year and end up dogless for the first time in many years. 

And then the perfect puppy came along at the less than ideal time, and the breeder offered to hold her for us until we were ready. The plan was not to bring her home until after Halo was gone, but the puppy was getting older and Halo was still here, so we decided to figure out a way to make it work. As it turned out, it went much better than we expected. But Halo got a bad case of pancreatitis that we just couldn't get her past, so we made the decision to let her go a couple of weeks later and she and Cava only overlapped by about a month. 

I can't honestly say if Keefer is glad Cava is around or he would have been fine as a solo dog after Halo died, but when we lost his half sister Dena at 4 years old he took it very hard. He was not himself for months, he was clearly grieving her loss, so I like to think that he appreciates the company even if the puppy is sometimes annoying. We never thought he'd make it to 13, and in a month he'll be 13-1/2. We don't know how much more time he has left other than not much.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If you make accommodations and understand it will be work to teach the pup not harass the older dog. I have a Older chihuahua who was known to be a grouch around dogs. I certainly was not going to wait as I was not getting any younger. It was work and max sure wanted to play with the little grumpy guy who wanted no part of this pup he was also **** bent in teaching him a thing or two. It took awhile but he came around and max learned my rules so it worked it took time. I had to make sure everyone had equal and special attention.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

You’re the only one who can make this decision. You know your dog better than us. 
If your dog is like mine and likes other dogs, then get the puppy. I know that my new dog and which of my last older dogs would have been happy introducing a puppy. I know one of my dogs that would have hated the puppy. He just wanted the house to himself and wouldn’t have been happy. Only you know your dogs temperament and if they’d be happy with someone else joining the house.


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## Hellish (Jul 29, 2017)

I kind of enjoyed having our old dog around to mentor the new pup. They were separated when we were not home and we would separate if the punk was being too in the face of our old man. The pup would watch and defer to the old man in terms of what was bark worthy when they were in the backyard, and when folks came to the door, etc. Old man was not a frivolous barker and now our GSD is not either. Old man didnt really play when he was young and the pup was not an enticement to him to play either.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've also gotten puppies when having seniors and it brings a breath of fresh air into the older dogs life. Of course management of the puppy is important. 
If you feel you can handle a pup and a senior(vetting costs included) then go for it. My concern would be the lines of the new pup and having health issues. Is there line breeding on this puppy? How are other dogs from these lines doing as far as health? EPI can just pop up, but it could also be genetic. 
ASL's are getting bottlenecked genetically. I would look at this perspective before deciding to take the puppy.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

*ASL's are getting bottlenecked genetically.*

Getting bottlenecked?? :laugh2: The bottlenecking started in 1967 when Lance of Fran-Jo went Grand Victor, and EVERYONE started linebreeding like crazy on him and his sons!

As for current linebreeding, it's probably a good thing that Dallas (Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes) died at age 9, or most of the dogs out there would be line bred on him!

I like Dallas, but too much linebreeding on any dog is NEVER a good thing.

Also, given your history with the previous pup, I would be cautious about getting another pup from this breeder, unless its genetics are quite different from the previous pup's. Epi IS inherited. A responsible breeder will do their best to eliminate it from their lines, but not everyone out there is responsible.


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## Craig Caughlin (Oct 17, 2007)

onyx'girl said:


> ..."Is there line breeding on this puppy? How are other dogs from these lines doing as far as health? EPI can just pop up, but it could also be genetic..."



First, I'd like to thank all of you for your input and thoughts. I think I'll e-mail the breeder and decline the offer.


Yes...this breeder _does_ line breed which is another contributing factor as to why I will decline the puppy. I'm doing my best to not name the breeder because I like her personally and don't want to say anything disparaging about her...or her dogs.


The line breeding really concerns me because she breeds her dogs for one primary thing only...their beauty in the ring! My last dog (which is who the photos are of), "Alexis" (we called her "LoveBug"...because she was) was drop-dead gorgeous but was skittish at loud noises, and had several other idiosyncrasies that *I* think may have been due to breeding for beauty and gait only.


My Wife and I miss "LoveBug" (R.I.P. May 27, 2017) beyond words but I think it's best for us to pass on this puppy.


Thank you all again!


Craig


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

To me doubt means 'no'. The pup is probably free due to his white spots as she may worry that he won't be 'show-quality'. I know it is not an issue but would the breeder have offered another pup for free without a white spot?
There will be many more pups once your old gal has passed.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

Craig Caughlin said:


> onyx'girl said:
> 
> 
> > ..."Is there line breeding on this puppy? How are other dogs from these lines doing as far as health? EPI can just pop up, but it could also be genetic..."
> ...


Eek you definitely made the right decision.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Craig Caughlin said:


> My last dog (which is who the photos are of), "Alexis" (we called her "LoveBug"...because she was) was drop-dead gorgeous but was skittish at loud noises, and had several other idiosyncrasies that *I* think may have been due to breeding for beauty and gait only.


Temperament is genetic, and there's really no need to sacrifice good temperament for beauty. Our puppy Cava is drop dead gorgeous and she also has a confident, happy, outgoing personality.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sunsilver, I was trying to be neutral. I understand the lines are very limited with no outcrossing. When a popular dog is overused, it does not end well in the long run for an already limited genepool.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Craig Caughlin said:


> I think I'll e-mail the breeder and decline the offer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Smart choice.....I had a very similar situation.....dog died after 6 years....breeder offered a free pup.....I thought it was way too generous....I paid her half.....I ended up with a dog that had EPI and DM....liberated her from her hardship at 8 years old......I never should have gone back to the same genetic cesspool. Loved those two dogs so much.....


I should have known better........




SuperG


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> Sunsilver, I was trying to be neutral. I understand the lines are very limited with no outcrossing. When a popular dog is overused, it does not end well in the long run for an already limited genepool.


true in the WGSL and in the WL.....it is insanely difficult to find dogs not linebred/backmassed on certain dogs or certain combos of lines....and all types are showing issues..........


Lee


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

So why is each section of the GSD world so stubbornly unwilling to use each other's dogs for genetic diversity??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> So why is each section of the GSD world so stubbornly unwilling to use each other's dogs for genetic diversity??


Working lines are seldom line bred unless it is done for a purpose....there are enough good dogs to not need to. I'm talking 5-7 generations of no common ancestry.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> Working lines are seldom line bred unless it is done for a purpose....there are enough good dogs to not need to. I'm talking 5-7 generations of no common ancestry.


So working lines have no problem?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm afraid that's no longer true. West German and N. American working lines have a problem with backmassing on Fero and his descendants, mainly Yoschy and Troll and Timmy von der Bosen Nachtbarschaft. It's caused a real bottleneck that some breeders are struggling to avoid.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Let's get back on topic, everyone. I doubt the OP has any interest in this turning into a line bashing thread.


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## michaelr (Aug 5, 2010)

I'm not at all sure you need to worry about Jazzy dealing with a new pup all that much. Has she had difficulty interacting with other puppies? Is she general tolerant of minor annoyances?



We currently have 2 dogs, an 8 year old 95 lb GSD named Duke and our son's 16 year old 60 lb mixed (only god knows what the combination is) named Sam (that we've been permanently dog sitting for the past 9 years - we adopted him the year before we got Duke). Sam is partly deaf (though he can still somehow hear a slice of Kraft American cheese being unwrapped from across the house), most blind due to cataracts, and seriously arthritic (can't jump on the bed any more and misses jumps to the couch 50% of the time), and getting senile. He ignores puppies in the street (sniffs and walks away), but he'll take flying leaps of joy (though not very high anymore) at Duke when I pick up the leashes to go out with them.


My point is that Sam, even with all his infirmities, still likes to at least try to play with his 'puppy,' and Duke is still very much his puppy (see the post on first page about mentoring). Dogs are very good at communicating, particularly with each other. If a puppy gets too annoying, worst case is a sharp bark and the pup will roll on to its back and get the message.


If I were in your position, I would likely take advantage of the opportunity to get the pup if I knew that Jazzy's general disposition was tolerant. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised by how well Jazzy takes to it.


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## Craig Caughlin (Oct 17, 2007)

michaelr said:


> ...If I were in your position, I would likely take advantage of the opportunity to get the pup if I knew that Jazzy's general disposition was tolerant. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised by how well Jazzy takes to it...


Too late - I already declined the puppy.

The breeders' desire to (often, line-) breed for (primarily) looks only coupled with my former experience with a dog that turned out to have EPI, pannus, was very skittish at loud noises, etc., was enough for me to turn down the (seemingly) generous offer. In retrospect, I'm skeptical that the only reason she offered me the puppy was because of the unusual white marking on his muzzle. This breeder breeds for perfect looks, almost exclusively, and will not hesitate to euthanize dogs she thinks are inferior...if she thinks they can't cut it in the show ring.

Thanks but no thanks...we'll coddle Jazzy and give her the best that we have to offer.

Craig


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Many dogs are line bred. You never mentioned in your initial post your dogs behavioral issues and slew of health problems, and your breeder killing puppies and breeder breeding unstable dogs. For a very powerful breed that becomes very dangerous if stability is not thought of. Why would you even entertain the thought for a second? I surely would not. If you have kids in the house or even if not it is very important to find a breeder with dogs with stable temperaments and health.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Craig Caughlin said:


> This breeder breeds for perfect looks, almost exclusively, and will not hesitate to euthanize dogs she thinks are inferior...if she thinks they can't cut it in the show ring.
> 
> 
> 
> Craig


Are you sure about that? I understand culling for some serious hereditary conditions, or defects that effect a quality of life and long term health, but inferior and puppies with faults still have value. I'd have a hard time believing someone would euthanize for a missing tooth or something?


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Steve made a good point. I would imagine the puppy with the white blaze down its muzzle would of not made it this far if this was true. I know a breeder who had to euthanize a puppy it had some severe neurological defect. The breeder was very upset about it and was not easy for her to do but she did not have much of a choice and has been breeding for a very long time and I’m sure it’s not the first time she had to put a puppy down but it certainly was not for looks.


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