# opportunity, or disaster



## Uruku (Mar 15, 2009)

Well, Ive fallen into my beautiful GSD. My most recent Ex found her off a nearby highway, while we were together. She still talks of stealing her even though I have been the one to bond with her and completly bolster her confidence. She is not the only one demanding a pup from her first litter however. Since she is not spayed I do plan on at least one litter from her, wanting a female from that litter for myself, to continue from. I dont want to be a "backyard breeder", at the same time though I kinda feel as though the opportunity has been given to me to actually become a breeder/trainer. I've had no traditional training, or even tried to get certificates for training, but all my dogs I have trained personally. 

My parents, while well off would never pay to train our/MY dog so I had to learn how myself. My first dog was a golden retriever, he had started as a hunting dog, but I was a 9yr-old boy and didnt have a clue how to continue that. My first problem was to keep him from jumping on everyone, especially my younger cousins. Eventually he died of liver failure, I blame giving him bones from cooked ribs and other leftovers, I was too young to know better.

As for Shilogh, I believe she is my greatest opportunity to really get into this field. She is obviously a purebred, from the breed standards her white mark on her chest is the only detrimental factor. She was a very wary dog when I first got her, but her fearlessness could be seen in how she reacted to outside influenceses. She still hides behind me when uncertain, but I make certain to remain in her eyes the pack leader. She used to bristle and snap at any dog near her size. Now any dog she meets no matter its disposition she sees as a playmate. Too often recently she will pull at her leash to want to play even if that dog is itself bristling, snapping, and growling.

I would Like to breed her, and her subseqent generations and become a respectable breeder. I am very new to the prospect though. Overall I do understand the most respectable thing I can do is forget the whole thing and spay her. She has so much potential though, and shows all the signs of good breeding, and I would honestly like the opportunity to try. Mostly I feel I don't know the difficulies I truley face. I know I can find good studs for her, and prospective litters of her pups later on, I would have to make sure the pups were trained well for prospective owners and at the proper age to develop a proper bond. I guess what I'm trying to convey is I understand the hardship and responsiblity to not only improve the breed but make sure that each pup is brought into a caring and responsible home. I'm confused and somewhat rambling. I looked into the AKC for instance, and cannot register her in anyway for AKC since I have no clue as to who her sire or dam is. Her first litter seems to be availible for conditional registry, with full registry upto 3 gens later dependable on DNA stuff, as long as I keep record of her stud(s). 

I am confused as to where to begin and continue. At her 2nd or 3rd heat should I look into finding her a stud? Her next heat would be her 2nd. Is it even possble to register her litter or subsequent gen's litters as purebred If i made sure to stud her and her pups to papered studs? Ect.

What other information might I be needing would be my last question.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Uruku
> What other information might I be needing would be my last question.


this is an excellent article: please start here.



> Originally Posted By: Uruku...found her off a nearby highway,
> 
> She is _obviously_ a purebred,
> 
> ...


5 good reasons not to breed her


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Starting out with an unpapered rescue of unknown ancestry is NOT the right way to begin a breeding program. You know nothing about the genetics behind your female. No idea if her parents, grandparents, siblings, aunts and uncles were healthy dogs of sound temperament. Dogs produce their genetics which is not always what you see in the individual dog. Spay her and find a mentor who can teach you the right way to do things. Maybe even someone who will co-own a good female with you that you can train and title before breeding.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

2 more reasons: http://www.savegsd.org/ & http://www.gcgsr.org/


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## dOg (Jan 23, 2006)

Uruku-
Nobody here is going to encourage this. Don't take it personally.
If you don't want to be a BYB, then don't breed this dog. Love her to death, learn plenty along the way, she will have been an inspiration to acquire much knowledge, but you couldn't fetch much for a pup from a dog with no known pedigree, no titles which prove her temperament and working ability, no health screenings (OFA, hips & elbows, CERF for eyes), all things that separate BYB's from reputable breeders. 
You admit a lack of experience and knowledge in both training, breed standards, and genetics, she still has her own issues...but she can
help you learn all those things and be a four legged mentor and great companion to help you get to become ready for that eventual day when you could graduate to that place where you could become a breeder. 

Breeding is a money loosing proposition, and the potential for heart ache is great, as the risks are many. On Petfinder, any given day,
there are over 100,000 dogs available, 10,000 or more GSDs or GSD mixes. She was lucky you found her. You are lucky to have her, but
breeding her would likely only add to this number.

I know this is not what you had hoped to hear. I am not a breeder.
I am just a guy who has hosted some wonderful dogs in my life, often imagined breeding, but know it's more time/money/work and
knowledge to do right than I have had resources for. I have trained my own, always had well behaved charges who are admired for their
behavior, but have yet to actually title one, though I am working on it. I doubt I'll ever become a breeder, but along the way, have come to understand the pitfalls and responsibilities of doing so are enormous.

Anyways, don't feel bad about nobody encouraging you to breed this girl. Do feel inspired to follow this dream some day with another down the road, but understand there is much between the desire and the ability to perform with enough knowledge and conviction to do it correctly.

Do come back here, often, it's a great place to learn! You will have many more questions, and folks here are willing to answer them. Do post pics, we can't get enough.


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## Keegan62 (Aug 17, 2008)

how can you breed a dog that you are not sure she is PURE BRED
who would want to breed to her since she has no papers? You have no idea what are hips are or what she really is

Get her spayed and keep her as a pet and thank God he let her find you


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## roxy84 (Jun 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: dOg...but she can
> help you learn all those things and be a four legged mentor and great companion to help you get to become ready for that eventual day when you could graduate to that place where you could become a breeder.


well said









take your time. learn from your new dog. get her spayed. attend training with her. do much research on breeding. ask lots of questions on the breeding section of this forum.
(edit: you are already in the breeders section-think i got lost)


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I think this dog was put in your life for learning and experience, but NOT for breeding experience.

I'd get her spayed, and then get an ILP registration number, and then start up with getting all the learning and training and experience so if you DO still choose to breed in the future. You will do so with all the background and experience to be a 'responsible' breeder.

With SO many genetic issues in our breed, both heathwise and temperament wise, it's vital to only breed the best to the best and KNOW the backgrounds of both sire and bitch as far back as you can. So you can better assure the stability of your pups. 

With so many MILLIONS of dogs killed every year in the USA, and so many thousands of those purebred, beautiful, REGISTERED German Shepherds, I know you don't want any of your pups to ever end up in that situation.

The only way to assure that is to be in a position to have great puppies. A great reputation. A position to take any of those puppies/dog BACK (rather than have them abandoned like the current dog you have, or left in a kill shelter) to later rehome them. And to be able to register all the puppies so you can keep track of them and assure THEY aren't bred (give a limited registry) unless you agree they are worthy.

Problem is that 'responsible' breeders know they aren't just responsible for their bitch. But all the puppies bred from that bitch. And all the puppies that may come from THOSE puppies.... and so on and so on and so on...... So a responsible breeder has to make sure to keep a lid on those numbers or it will be crazy!!!

Good luck and join dog clubs and training!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

You posted in your introduction that it's obvious she's been abused by the shy/skittish/frightened way whe acts. She may have been, but it's very possible she's never been abused at all. The skittishness and shyness is so common in German Shepherds that there's a specific term for it-- nervy. I've had my GSD Rocky since he was 10 weeks old and I know for a fact he's never been abused, but he acts just like you describe-- shy, frightened of strangers, always nervous in new experiences. It's a very common, pervasive problem in the breed and should not be passed on. Some of these dogs become fear biters and have to be put down.

Your dog is young. She could have a whole host of genetic issues like hip or elbow displasia that won't pop up until she's older. You don't know what her genetics are like because you don't know who her parents and grandparents were. 

With a non-registered, non-titled Shepherd, you will NOT get the type of puppy buyers that you want owning and raising your dogs pups. People who pay $200 or $300 for an unregistered pup are the same people who often dump them in shelters before they're a year or two old. Not always, but often. 

Please please PLEASE spay your dog.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Ok Frankly --
I think most of us are so inarmoured of our dogs when we first get them that we entertain fantasies of breeding them. All I had to do in Wyoming was take a walk in my neighborhood. Dog after dog languished in the backyard. Few went for rides, few went for walks. That's probably your market.

Then consider -- Any reputable stud owner will not breed your bitch. You have no AKC papers, AKC will not issue papers for cases like this except for what used to be an ILP. An ILP requires the dog be spayed/neutered.
This is no way to begin a breeding program.
Tell people wanting a pup to go to Animal Control and look. One will turn up.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I agree with the others that she should not be bred. However, there is NO reason you can not work and train her to reach her full potential through training. She would be PERFECT for training but should be spayed. With unknown breeding behind her you have no way to know health, temperament, working ability or structure how would you know how to improve her lines? Please spay your girl and use her to learn all about training.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: UrukuI would Like to breed her, and her subseqent generations and become a respectable breeder.


This is the key sentence right here. You CAN'T become a "respectable breeder" by starting with a dog rescued off the highway as your foundation bitch, no matter how wonderful she is, no matter how much she _appears_ to be purebred. All you can be with this dog is a BYB, producing unregistered puppies of uncertain heritage. You're NOT going to find good studs for her because no reputable breeder is going to breed their purebred AKC registered dog to your rescue. I'm not an expert, but I don't think there's any way you're going to get AKC registered puppies out of this litter, or any subsequent generations because the dog you're starting with is not an AKC registered purebred. Please reconsider breeding her, and if you're serious about someday becoming a reputable breeder, take the excellent advice that's been offered.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

To add to others, think of this:

You cannot show anyone how good your dog is. I'm sure she is, but you can prove it because she is not registered, then she can't be in shows to earn a title in that venue if it is what you like and she has not working titles either. There is a huge difference between training our own dogs to be well mannered than to train dogs to a competitive level, and the way you describe your pup, fearfulness and reactivity, she's not competitive material. Since you have no pedigree data, you have no health knowledge of this dog either.

My point is not the importance of titles. By themselves they are nothing, but if you need to convince other the value of your dog, they are a useful tool. And if you want to be a be a good breeder, you want the best sire for your dam. How would you convince the sire's owner of how good is your female if you have nothing?. No matter how good your dog is, the owners of good sires will not breed to her, all you will have to choose is a bad male to be the father of pups already born of an unknown females... that is not a good start in life for the pups, it's not fair for them, it's not fair for the future owners of those pups.

Remember everything is known on the long run, so if you start now with this female, in the future when you want to be a serious breeder with registered dogs your name will be already been spread around and you wont be trusted by serious breeders no matter how good you decide to do things, so it will be better to wait than in name of enthusiasm start on the wrong way.

You are here, you are asking questions, you want to learn! You are already doing more than BYB do. You can be a good Breeder someday, if you wait.


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

This has to be a joke and if not all I have to say is OMG. There are way to many dogs here that are being bred that are not titled and people that are breeding that have no buisness breeding. I am not going to say anymore because this just gets my blood boiling and I am sure with what I really want to say will get me thrown off this board. I am sure there will be a day when that happens but not just yet.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Since the title of this thread is "opportunity or disaster", I'll go with disaster.

Are you aware you could loose your dog when the puppies come?

Does opportunity mean You want to make the big bucks? 

Are you aware you may have a litter of 8 and all the people who want one now, they might have something come up?

I could go on but I'm sticking with Disaster. 

Please don't breed your rescue girl. Adore her, spay her and love her but please dont' breed her. 

I didn't breed my rescue girl, no matter how many people told me she's gorgeous and they wanted one of her babies.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, I did not read all the posts, but here goes. 

First, did you have your vet check to see whether she had a microchip? She may be somebody's dog -- not yours. In that case she may have a pedigree. If you have had her for a number of years, you may be able to contact the owners and get the information or return their dog. 

Without a pedigree, with no knowledge of her background, and especially with her fearful behavior, you do not want to breed this bitch. I am sorry. But all is not lost. 

Go to the AKC, and get a PAL number for her. I believe she must be spayed to do this and it makes sense to do this. 

Next take her to training classes or matches, and get involved in a GSD club. While you train your dog, this dog to be a herding champion, have an agility title, have obedience titles, have a tracking title, you will gain friends and knowledge and the eye of the responsible and serious breed people around. 

This will take a couple of years and some money. But while you are doing this, you will learn all about the wonderful things that these dogs are bred and trained to do. And you will be keeping your eye out for your foundation bitch. When you have accomplished these things you will be ready to buy a puppy or an adult bitch from lines you know about, with the traits you want, and with the type of training you want to do with her. 

You will know whether you want to do German show lines, working lines, American lines. You will know whether you want to buy a puppy or an adult, an import, and many other things. You may know the people you want to buy from. 

At this point you will have learned what it takes to be a responsible breeder, how much it costs, what is needed to start, etc. 

There is a right way and a wrong way to go into things. Breeding a bitch you found on a highway, is definitely the wrong way.


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## Uruku (Mar 15, 2009)

Ok, I get the point. Many good posts tho, alot of info up there that I am going to look into.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

oh...and AKC papers only mean that a dog is pb...not that it is worthy of breeding. So theoretically you could find some person that is willing to let your dog breed with their AKC reg. dog...but that doesn't mean their dog is worthy of breeding either. My Amish puppy mill girl has AKC papers........


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

<span style="color: #FF0000">Overall I do understand the most respectable thing I can do is forget the whole thing and spay her. </span>

YOU GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is the most respectable thing you can do, and the ONLY thing you should do!!!


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## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Definitely a *disaster*

If you breed an unregistered dog, where are you going to sell the puppies and to who? On the street corner, at the local Wal-Mart parking lot, and advertise the puppies in the local newspaper? Take the remaining puppies to the animal shelter, or know that some of them may end up there?

*That is not a respectable or responsible breeder.*

Like all the others have said, spay her, train and love her and learn from her. 

My first dog, five years ago, we got with high hopes of doing a lot with him and then having him as a stud dog. We didn't know much, but I read, listened, asked questions, did things myself and learned about the breed. I wanted to title my boy, and almost 5 years later, I am still working towards that goal. He was neutered at 2 1/2 years old, because I knew (from everything that I had learned and being honest with myself) that he was not breeding material. 

In the mean time, I bought a female puppy and she became my hope to continue with my goals. She was a totally different dog, I had to learn different ways to go about training her from how I train my male, and I did learn. Now at 3 years old, she is titled and is expecting our first litter. I have high hopes for the puppies and how they will turn out, but it is still all an unknown. I've done everything that I could to do this right, put a lot of my time and energy along with money into this, and it's still a big risk. There are no guarantees that everything will go right, that you can find good homes for all the puppies and that they will grow up and be the kind of dogs you want them to be.

I have two younger dogs, a female and a male, and they will each go through the process before I will consider breeding them, because it is the right, responsible thing to do, not only for me or other people, but for the breed itself.

It's a long process and if you really want to do it right, then you need to go through the long process and learn everything that you can, first.

Goodluck!!


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## Timber1 (May 19, 2007)

Your dog sounds like so many rescues I have fostered. A wonderful dog but some minor issues. There are somany of these dogs available that I suggest you do a bit more research and never breed the dog.

In addition to my rescues, I have a GSD that comes from well titled parents and is extremely intelligent and versatile. Nonetheless, I would never breed the dog. Why, it is expensive and time consuming.

Your dog, despite how great you think it is, is no different then the thousands of Shepherds, both rescues and those born to breeders, on this earth. 

As an aside, if you want another Grman Shepherd pup, contact me by personal E Mail. Our rescue group gets its share of cute pups.

The bottom line, is leave the breeding to the experienced German Shepherd breeders.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

Yes and let's not forget how michael douglas' son turned out ! . MD is hollywood royalty and best in show and yet he still threw out a wayward pup ...................

If its a good dog and you want to have pups with a decent male to give away fine but don't market yourself as an oscar breeder ;-)


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Er...this thread is over a year old


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Er...this thread is over a year old


Nuff said.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

So I am bit slow !! Shoot me.


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