# Rally to save dogs set to be put down for killing-pigs



## buckeye1

I saw this from my local station on Facebook. It makes me sick and sad at the same time. I signed the petition to not have them euthanized. I'll get that link paste it on here. So far over 1500 have signed as as well as me. We need to save those dogs. 

http://www.13abc.com/story/23167973/rally-to-save-dogs-set-to-be-put-down-for-killing-pigs

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/save-nala-bugger/?m=0

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## Contrary

If they'd killed your dogs, would you want them put down? 

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## gsdsar

Living in a livestock heavy area, I won't sign this. The dogs killed a farmers livestock. If it were my pigs,goats,sheep, I don't think they would have made it out of the barn alive. Sorry. 


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## selzer

I can't sign either, but the dogs look sweet. I feel sad for them, the dogs, and the family. But I feel sorry for the owner of the farm too. No one should have to see their critters mauled, be it rabbits, or chickens, or dogs or pigs. 

On the other hand, where do you live that coyotes aren't a possibility, and who do you hold accountable when coyotes kill your chickens or pigs? You kill the coyotes if you can. But the pigs are just as dead. 

I am guessing that the problem with domestic dogs is that they are not afraid of humans and will go much closer to human dwellings and buildings, and once the dogs have had this sort of an adventure, the chances that the dogs will repeat the process is much greater. 

Can't sign it. I live in farm country.


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## marshies

I'm torn on this issue.

On one hand, the woman offered full compensation to the farmer. I think that warrants giving the dogs a second chance. Killing the dogs won't fix the farmer's pigs, but the family clearly wants to remedy the issue. I think it isn't too late to euthanize the dogs if they re-offend.

On the other hand, the farmer said the dogs were charging the farmer until they were baked into a stall and secured, and it's in the local laws to euthanize dogs that harm livestock.

Difficult situation for both families to be in, I do not envy them one bit.


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## Contrary

Where I own a home (rural Alabama), the sheriff won't even respond to a stray report, even if it isn't bothering livestock. When i called about a chow that was living in the woods behind my property, the sheriff told me to shoot it before it went after my animals (at the time we had a cow, 3 week old calf, 6 pigs, 70+ chickens, 5 goats, and 5 horses on the property). It scared the horses out of the fence one night, and I suspect my tenant took care of it the next day, because I never saw it again. (The horses were his.). When coyotes were close by, my son would sleep in his truck near the barn with a gun ready, fortunately, we never had to shoot any.

The common sentiment in livestock heavy areas is "S,S,S"...shoot, shovel, shut up...for dogs on someone else's property.

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## kjdreyer

I don't know, the dogs sure don't look like killers in those pics, but still...
Not too long ago, three dogs escaped their yard and killed a neighbor's goat. I don't really understand how AC couldn't pick up the dogs, but 6 days later they were back killing the same neighbor's horse. 
Owner of pit bulls in pony attack will act as own defense - The Santa Fe New Mexican: Local News


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## Nigel

The farmer lost my sympathy when she wants to turn 2 dead pigs into a $45,000 cash cow. I believe she should get more than market value, but 45k?


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## llombardo

Its all about the money and nothing that I read even proves that these dogs did it. It was up to the person to decide the fate of the dogs and because there was not enough money involved they die? The person that owned the pigs actually was able to read the tags and call Animal Control? The pigs didn't squeal and make any noise? I don't buy that these dogs did it...Petition signed.


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## Contrary

On the dogs' FB support page is the report made by the Sheriff's Office/AC. I don't see this $45k anywhere...but the reporting is pretty damning imo.


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## Nigel

Contrary said:


> On the dogs' FB support page is the report made by the Sheriff's Office/AC. I don't see this $45k anywhere...but the reporting is pretty damning imo.


I seen the $45k listed in the petition.


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## buckeye1

Nigel said:


> The farmer lost my sympathy when she wants to turn 2 dead pigs into a $45,000 cash cow. I believe she should get more than market value, but 45k?


I totally agree with you about cash now. After the value of the pigs she wants almost $40,000. Sounds like greed to me. They had it on the local news tonight basically saying the dogs "allegedly" killed the pigs. So there was no real evidence that the dogs did it. 


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## sparra

kjdreyer said:


> I don't know, the dogs sure don't look like killers in those pics, but still...



Just because the photo shows two cute puppy dogs looking harmless doesn't mean they are.....what are they supposed to look like....snarling rabid monsters? 




buckeye1 said:


> So there was no real evidence that the dogs did it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why would the owner of the dogs want to "make things right" if her dogs didn't do it? 
Dogs shouldn't have been there tearing up her pigs.....she has a right to be pissed.


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## kjdreyer

Yes, that was my point with the "but still..." and the following story. If they were snarling beasts in the pics, nobody would give it second thought. Regardless, they killed.


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## wolfstraum

Looking at the photos of those pigs...a dog or some animal had bitten them...they did not kill them...the throats on both pigs are intact, the alleged bites are old and scabbed over....the farmer apparently chose to destroy them rather than treat them...they look like market pigs - not females with litters....

A friend had a St Bernard that mauled a pig of his own...the dog also went after a child who had knocked on their door (Jehovah's Witness visit) - the owner chose to euthanize the dog at that point....the pigs were much much much more damaged than some scratches

Lee


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## kjdreyer

Where did you find more info on this? The link I read was so vague, I'm just curious if there are more facts available. Thx


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## Muskeg

The owner of the pigs deserves compensation for her loss, the dogs do not deserve to be euthanized. 

A mistake like this could happen to anyone- anyone here owned husky mixes? Unlike (most) shepherds, they'll take off and have a great time without you. 

This is why, if I lived around livestock, all my dogs would be trained with COMPULSION- yes 100% aversive techniques- to avoid livestock of any kind. (Lou Castle's crittering method). Sheep, goats, horses, you name it. I know my dogs well enough that I wouldn't take a risk of something like this happening. The owner of the dogs was actually pretty lucky the dogs made it through the encounter alive.


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## Contrary

If you Google, you can find other articles about it. Every article I can find is very obviously biased towards either the pigs' owner, or the dogs' owner. One comment, from a guy that lived near, and actually competes (his kids) against the pigs' owner's kids in 4H shows is very much against the dogs being euthanized, but did say the pigs probably died from fright, that the show pigs ummm...constitution isn't very good (can't remember the word he used)

My son did scare one of our pigs so badly it fainted once, but out of nine pigs, s/he was the only one that ever did that, and God knows, trying to get them loaded was enough to scare them to death. Ours were not showlines, though, and I know nothing about showlines to say whether that neighbor is correct or not.

Still can't sign it, though. I'm sorry for all involved, but I can say if I found dogs in my barn, and dead pigs...the dogs wouldn't have had to worry about euthanasia, I would have shot them on the spot. All these comments from the dogs' support group saying she should have had the barn closed, blah blah blah...nope, sorry. It's not like her pigs were roaming the neighborhood, they were in their pen, in the barn. My barn was open every day, all day, after my cow had her calf. My goats went in and out as they wanted, my cow and her calf were contained in a pen inside. Does that mean they should have been lunch for any dog roaming around?

I also see people blaming coyotes, that may be a possibility, but we didn't worry about coyotes during the day, ever. Our animals were secured at night, but they were free to roam during the day. (Inside electric fencing, they weren't free to roam off our property.) I never lost anything to predators, and the only predators we ever found were rattlesnakes in the chicken coop.


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## Syaoransbear

I see absolutely no point in killing the dogs after the fact. I understand when farmers kill dogs that are in the process of killing their pigs because that's usually the only option you have to protect the rest of your livestock, but euthanizing them makes no sense. If the owner is going to make sure their dogs never get out ever again, and they are going to give full monetary compensation, what would be the purpose in killing the dogs besides revenge?


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## Contrary

Syaoransbear said:


> I see absolutely no point in killing the dogs after the fact. I understand when farmers kill dogs that are in the process of killing their pigs because that's usually the only option you have to protect the rest of your livestock, but euthanizing them makes no sense. If the owner is going to make sure their dogs never get out ever again, and they are going to give full monetary compensation, what would be the purpose in killing the dogs besides revenge?


Is it revenge when we put down a dog that attacks a human? Or do we do it because it's possible, even probable, it will happen again?

Farmers don't necessarily kill dogs that are attacking their livestock because they can't protect the rest of the herd right then, they do it because the dogs tend to come back for seconds...and thirds...


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm with Nigel, lost all sympathy for the pig owners when they wanted 40 grand. 

Sounds like it's all about the money, the dog owners offered a hefty amount, the pig owner wants more, no pig is worth 40 grand unless it spits dollar bills. 

If it were me, as the pig owner, I would mad as all heck, I would want some type of compensation, if this was the dogs FIRST offense, I'd give them a pass, because of owner error, which is not the dogs fault But if it were a repeated thing, I'd want the dogs removed from their ownership. 

Actually if I caught them in the act, I might shoot them myself, but asking for 40 grand, and not getting it, sounds like she's PO'd at the dog owner for not paying up


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## Syaoransbear

Contrary said:


> Is it revenge when we put down a dog that attacks a human? Or do we do it because it's possible, even probable, it will happen again?
> 
> Farmers don't necessarily kill dogs that are attacking their livestock because they can't protect the rest of the herd right then, they do it because the dogs tend to come back for seconds...and thirds...


A dog is never owned by pigs. The dog is euthanized to also protect the _owner_ because the dog has proven that it attacks humans.


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## Franksmom

No way I can sign the petition. 
I love my dogs but:
If I found dogs in my barn with one of my horses being dead, the owner would never know what happened to the dog, and if the dog ran off before I could take care of it, I probably would be after the dog to be put down to. After all how could I count on the owner keeping the dogs contained, and now the dogs know where my place is. 

I agree $40,000 is much more then the pigs are worth, but if they killed my horse ( my horses are my babies too) I would want more then the replacement value of the horse. 
Think about it if a dog attacked yours, killed it, would all you would want is replacement value of the dog. 
I do know people that have pigs as pets and they are as loved as my horses, Not saying this is the case here just that I do know people like that. 
I would be curious to know what kind of history the dogs have with getting out, and if anything else even just chasing stock, has happened in the past.


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## Lilie

THe only way I can get my head around the dollar value provided for the pigs is if the pig owner is using the assumption that their pigs went grand champion (through 4-H) and was auctioned off. The value of the pigs at that point is only directly related to the person bidding on the pig and how much they want to 'donate' to the local 4-H. 

At the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo - some of the livestock can reach that level and beyond. But the 4-H student with the specific live stock certainly isn't given a choice on the dollar value. 

It is fool hearty to make such an assumption. And being a 4-H-ers parent they should be aware as to what they are teaching their children doing so.


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## lhczth

They could be basing the value on the future breeding value of the pigs and the pigs they may produce. Purebred animals have far more value than most people not involved in the industry understand. I did not read the articles and will not sign the petition (as a livestock owner past and present).


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## GSDLover2000

Contrary said:


> If they'd killed your dogs, would you want them put down?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I wouldn't. I would be absolutely devastated, but they don't know better. Would you?


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## Contrary

GSDLover2000 said:


> I wouldn't. I would be absolutely devastated, but they don't know better. Would you?


Yeah, I would. I am of the opinion that if it happens once, it will happen again. So if they killed my dogs, and they're set free, and accidentally get out again, and kill more dogs...when do you draw the line?


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## Dainerra

marshies said:


> I'm torn on this issue.
> 
> On one hand, the woman offered full compensation to the farmer. I think that warrants giving the dogs a second chance. Killing the dogs won't fix the farmer's pigs, but the family clearly wants to remedy the issue. I think it isn't too late to euthanize the dogs if they re-offend.
> 
> On the other hand, the farmer said the dogs were charging the farmer until they were baked into a stall and secured, and it's in the local laws to euthanize dogs that harm livestock.
> 
> Difficult situation for both families to be in, I do not envy them one bit.


In many states, it is the law that any dogs killing livestock must be euthanized. In WV, for example, it is illegal to own a dog that has killed livestock, to rehome a dog that has killed livestock, or to house a dog belonging to someone else that has killed livestock. There is a daily fine for every day from the court date declaring the dog dangerous to the day that proof is presented that the dog is euthanized.

And, yes, if they reoffend it IS too late to euthanize them. It's too late to save the next livestock and the expense of the next farmer. Not to mention that it will be too late for these dogs to receive a humane death if they are caught in the act, shot and drag themselves off into the woods to bleed to death.


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## NTexFoster

My grand parents had a farm and I would occasionally help work there. Once a dog killed one of their sheep while we were out putting up hay, so we actually saw and recognized the dog. The owner shot it.

I love all of my dogs which is why I keep them under my supervision at all times so they don't have a chance to do something stupid like kill some farmers livestock. Seems pretty straight forward to me.


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## sparra

NTexFoster said:


> I love all of my dogs which is why I keep them under my supervision at all times so they don't have a chance to do something stupid like kill some farmers livestock. Seems pretty straight forward to me.


Yup....it is pretty straight forward.

In most of these types of discussions the "worth" of livestock killing dogs is put above the "worth" of a mean old farmers worthless animals.
Most fail to understand that the value of breeding stock can be more than just "replacement" value. you can't replace years of selective breeding with "meat" prices.
Keep your dogs under control and they won't get shot/euthanized for killing livestock.....VERY simple.


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## selzer

Do we know for a fact that the pig owner asked for 40k to keep it all quiet? Or could that just be the dogs' owner knows that if they hype their side, they will get public opinion on theirs?


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## Nigel

selzer said:


> Do we know for a fact that the pig owner asked for 40k to keep it all quiet? Or could that just be the dogs' owner knows that if they hype their side, they will get public opinion on theirs?


It was mentioned in the petition and in this letter posted on the Facebook page kind of blurry and small. If you can't read this, check the Facebook link in the posted news article.


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## llombardo

Lots of people here are basing their opinions on the fact that they have livestock. I can understand this, but if there is no proof that the dogs did this, then we really should rethink that opinion. I understand there are laws and if the dogs were truly caught in the act, then I can understand some form of punishment, but that is not the case here.... There is NO evidence that these dogs did this, none whatsoever. The people who own the dogs are willing to give something, the owner of the pigs should be happy and take that, because they wouldn't be getting anything if it was a coyote or wolf that did it and it very well could have been. That isn't justice..its the same as putting a innocent person in the electric chair.


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## sparra

Nigel said:


> It was mentioned in the petition and in this letter posted on the Facebook page kind of blurry and small. If you can't read this, check the Facebook link in the posted news article.


What is the 4-H all about.....I think Lilie mentioned it also???


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## sparra

llombardo said:


> Lots of people here are basing their opinions on the fact that they have livestock. I can understand this, but if there is no proof that the dogs did this, then we really should rethink that opinion. I understand there are laws and if the dogs were truly caught in the act, then I can understand some form of punishment, but that is not the case here.... There is NO evidence that these dogs did this, none whatsoever. The people who own the dogs are willing to give something, the owner of the pigs should be happy and take that, because they wouldn't be getting anything if it was a coyote or wolf that did it and it very well could have been. That isn't justice..its the same as putting a innocent person in the electric chair.


Didn't the owner of the pigs catch them in some kind of pen? I thought the owner of the dogs has accepted that the dogs did it.


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## selzer

The one dog was a husky, they were loose, they were at the barn. They weren't there to just play with the piggies. 

I am sorry but the dogs did it. 

In my opinion, it was probably the dogs' owners that manufactured the 40k price just to get people on their side. 

It is a terrible thing, but I live out where there are critters. I do not own livestock. But if any of my dogs are caught with my neighbors, and my neighbor kills my dog, I will apologize to them, and pay for the market value of the critter.

A dog that goes after livestock, will likely go back again. Why should the owners of the livestock have to deal with this again, from the same dogs? 

Even my vet, who owns chickens, got her chickens slaughtered by a dog, and she told me if the black dog comes back, it is a dead dog.


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## Nigel

llombardo said:


> Lots of people here are basing their opinions on the fact that they have livestock. I can understand this, but if there is no proof that the dogs did this, then we really should rethink that opinion. I understand there are laws and if the dogs were truly caught in the act, then I can understand some form of punishment, but that is not the case here.... There is NO evidence that these dogs did this, none whatsoever. The people who own the dogs are willing to give something, the owner of the pigs should be happy and take that, because they wouldn't be getting anything if it was a coyote or wolf that did it and it very well could have been. That isn't justice..its the same as putting a innocent person in the electric chair.


Actually, if it was done by a wolf there are reimbursement programs available and they are abused. Calf missing? Well it must have been a wolf, pay me. Cow dies of natural causes or sickness? Leave the carcass to be scavenged, yup you guessed it, those darn wolves again, pay me. They need very little proof, something along the lines of being within a certain distance of a known or proven wolf kill is all it takes. I haven't read up on it for a while, hopefully they have been able to curb some of the abuses.


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## Nigel

sparra said:


> What is the 4-H all about.....I think Lilie mentioned it also???


Hopefully Lilie can explain it, there is a lot more to it than what I understand, but it involves kids with agriculture and animals. Kids raise sheep, goats, cows etc... They show them at the fair competing against others and then some get auctioned off, that my limited understanding.


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## Dainerra

In AR, for example, all you have to do is lose one animal to roaming dogs and it becomes legal to shoot ANY dog that enters your property. Even a single toe over the property line, no where in the vicinity of your livestock. And, believe me, most farmers around here use that law.

I can see the $40,000. Not as a reasonable amount but as a frustrated farmer saying "OK, then pay me this." In some states, you can count future earnings as part of your compensation. Say a sow can have 10 piglets a year, you can sell those for $300 each - $3000. She is breedable for 6 years, that is $18,000. A boar can sire ???? piglets - stud fee $200. I'm just making up those numbers but you get the idea. In some cases, you can add in "replacement cost + getting a pig to the status of the one you lost" So $300 for a piglet of similar linage, feed to grow it to X years old, vet costs, show costs (if you do that), etc etc
It gets frustrating dealing with pet owners when you are a farmer in this situation. They have the "just a pig/rabbit/chicken" mentality vs a beloved member of their family. It's like having a SCHIII titled dog with the potential to start a legendary line of progeny and someone saying "oh, you can replace him easily. There are GSDs in the paper all of the time for $150" Sadly, that is how most people view replacing livestock. They really have no idea of how much $$ is invested in these animals or how much the farmer loses in future income.

I would say if the farmer DID say $40K that it was a means of getting attention as well as a starting point for a potential lawsuit - always ask for way more than you can reasonably expect to receive.

4-H Youth Development Organization | 4-H


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## Arc

For those advocating shooting pets...

If you catch an animal attacking your livestock then go ahead and shoot it, I advise against it if it a first offender that has a collar, be ready to give an explanation and live with the neighbor if you do. Shooting someones pets may have repercussions, and sever ones if it was for some invalid reason like a plinker target. I've had more than enough of my out door cats come home to die with a hole in one or both lungs and it still burns me years later. Its likely someone sicko or drunk shot them for fun.

If our other larger pets or livestock go missing, I'm looking for the body or fresh grave and if they come home with holes, I will be looking for that shooter immediately. People will come looking for those they love, if someone stays out too late I go looking for them for fear they may have broken a leg. Food for thought before blindly shooting at collared animals that are likely a neighbors pet, regardless of what they may have done. Second offense KoS, especially if the pet owner was informed of the first offense.


Now, As for the pig owners...
Compensation was offered and killing the dogs comes across as a revenge tactic, it benefits them nothing unless they are out to hurt someone. This kind of person is beyond all levels of repulsive to me.

Livestock is livestock are not pets, they get to live good lives in exchange for being food. These people are short sighted and are making enemies over money and unless these are prize winning show pigs, they likely destroyed their reputation in their home town for having the dogs killed. We keep goats, chickens, etc, and all of them combined aren't worth $40,000, its like an over paid baseball player.

On a side note, who is to say that the dogs didn't get in with a pack of coyotes and are in a case of guilt by association. Maybe coyotes did the killing but the pets stayed and now the livestock owner sees it as a money grab. This is why I refuse to judge anyone, on top of lack of information and evidence, its not my place.

The area is too developed to retrieve the dogs be other means, assuming the dogs are held in the same town as the court house.

Signed.


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## sparra

Arc said:


> For those advocating shooting pets...
> 
> If you catch an animal attacking your livestock then go ahead and shoot it, I advise against it if it a first offender that has a collar, be ready to give an explanation and live with the neighbor if you do. Shooting someones pets may have repercussions, and sever ones if it was for some invalid reason like a plinker target. I've had more than enough of my out door cats come home to die with a hole in one or both lungs and it still burns me years later. Its likely someone sicko or drunk shot them for fun.
> 
> If our other larger pets or livestock go missing, I'm looking for the body or fresh grave and if they come home with holes, I will be looking for that shooter immediately. People will come looking for those they love, if someone stays out too late I go looking for them for fear they may have broken a leg. Food for thought before blindly shooting at collared animals that are likely a neighbors pet, regardless of what they may have done. Second offense KoS, especially if the pet owner was informed of the first offense.
> 
> 
> Now, As for the pig owners...
> Compensation was offered and killing the dogs comes across as a revenge tactic, it benefits them nothing unless they are out to hurt someone. This kind of person is beyond all levels of repulsive to me.
> 
> Livestock is livestock are not pets, they get to live good lives in exchange for being food. These people are short sighted and are making enemies over money and unless these are prize winning show pigs, they likely destroyed their reputation in their home town for having the dogs killed. We keep goats, chickens, etc, and all of them combined aren't worth $40,000, its like an over paid baseball player.
> 
> On a side note, who is to say that the dogs didn't get in with a pack of coyotes and are in a case of guilt by association. Maybe coyotes did the killing but the pets stayed and now the livestock owner sees it as a money grab. This is why I refuse to judge anyone, on top of lack of information and evidence, its not my place.
> 
> The area is too developed to retrieve the dogs be other means, assuming the dogs are held in the same town as the court house.
> 
> Signed.


Lol!!!!!


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## Dainerra

First, dogs and coyotes generally don't mix. The dogs would be killed by the coyotes or at least tore up a bit.
Second, there is no law saying you have to give a warning. The law will be on the side of the farmer. At my house, I'll call the law myself and they well tell you to come collect the body of your dog and bring the checkbook with you. I've find there are moo troubles with neighbors when you give warnings than just shooting the dang dog. It's a bit hard for them to argue that their dog was never there if you have already shot it.
I give a warning if i see the dog passing through my property - i call the sheriff and a deputy goes to the owner's house to inform them that the next visit the dog will be shot on sight. You'd be amazed at how many people shrug and say "oh well. It wasn't my dog they saw “


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## Dainerra

There is one very simple way to make sue that this never happens to your pets - keep them under your control.
Would you blame the driver if your dog slipped out the door and into the street? Or would you blame yourself for not making sure the gate was latched? 

At your home, your dog is a pet. At the farm down the street he is just another predator

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## robk

I did not read the article. But I have a friend who breeds and raises a breed of pig called a Duroc which look more like a spanish fighting bull than a pig. I can't imagine a pack of dogs being more than a tasty lunch for them.

Breeds of Livestock - Duroc Swine


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## Gwenhwyfair

If your dog came onto my property and agitated and spooked my horses into a fence and/or caused some other kind of injury your dog is going be the three S.S.S. Shoot, shovel and shut up.

My horses were valuable, beloved members of the family and vet bills can get very expensive to boot and I have every right to protect my animals. I'm not going to chase or otherwise waste time amongst a spooked herd of cattle or horses trying to cajole your dog to be 'nice'.

Too many people move out to the country and think it's just fine and dandy to let their dogs ...just be natural free happy dogs....meanwhile they are running down calves, sheep, goats.

I haven't commented on this case in particular because the facts do seem sort of sketchy, however your comments in general are not how these sort of incidents tend to play out.

Furthermore most rural sheriff depts. not only won't charge someone for shooting a stray dog they'll tell you to shoot if you ask them what to do.

Now if you want to tote some firearms or otherwise threaten a property owner by trespassing, snooping around and/or applying some sort of vigilante justice then it will be YOU who is charged or end up facing an older farmer with a shotgun yourself. 

Having grown up in the country I can attest to the problem stray dogs cause.

A local beef cattle farmer had a problem with a neighbor's rottie mixing chasing his cattle and occasionally taking a calf down. He asked the neighbor to contain his dog. Neighbor ignored him, said it wasn't his dog.

A few days later the farmer called the neighbor and told him "I shot the dog that that wasn't yours while it was chasing a calf" and hung up.







Arc said:


> For those advocating shooting pets...
> 
> If you catch an animal attacking your livestock then go ahead and shoot it, I advise against it if it a first offender that has a collar, be ready to give an explanation and live with the neighbor if you do. Shooting someones pets may have repercussions, and sever ones if it was for some invalid reason like a plinker target. I've had more than enough of my out door cats come home to die with a hole in one or both lungs and it still burns me years later. Its likely someone sicko or drunk shot them for fun.
> 
> If our other larger pets or livestock go missing, I'm looking for the body or fresh grave and if they come home with holes, I will be looking for that shooter immediately. People will come looking for those they love, if someone stays out too late I go looking for them for fear they may have broken a leg. Food for thought before blindly shooting at collared animals that are likely a neighbors pet, regardless of what they may have done. Second offense KoS, especially if the pet owner was informed of the first offense.
> 
> 
> Now, As for the pig owners...
> Compensation was offered and killing the dogs comes across as a revenge tactic, it benefits them nothing unless they are out to hurt someone. This kind of person is beyond all levels of repulsive to me.
> 
> Livestock is livestock are not pets, they get to live good lives in exchange for being food. These people are short sighted and are making enemies over money and unless these are prize winning show pigs, they likely destroyed their reputation in their home town for having the dogs killed. We keep goats, chickens, etc, and all of them combined aren't worth $40,000, its like an over paid baseball player.
> 
> On a side note, who is to say that the dogs didn't get in with a pack of coyotes and are in a case of guilt by association. Maybe coyotes did the killing but the pets stayed and now the livestock owner sees it as a money grab. This is why I refuse to judge anyone, on top of lack of information and evidence, its not my place.
> 
> The area is too developed to retrieve the dogs be other means, assuming the dogs are held in the same town as the court house.
> 
> Signed.


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## LARHAGE

Yep, had neighbors dogs repeatedly jump into my yard and wipe out all my chickens, I angrily warned them next time there would be 2 dead Akita's in my yard, a few months later they chased a foal and bit her pastern, causing injury, the foal was not only loved every bit as much as those **** dogs were, in fact I can guarantee more, but the foal was also the result of a 2500.00 stud fee from a National Champion Arabian stallion, that result was one dead Akita and the second escaping by the skin of it's nose, later to be put down by the owner, it's really quite simple, KEEP YOUR DOGS CONTAINED!!!!!!


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## sparra

The 4-H organization sounds like a great initiative.
I can understand how upsetting it would be for a kid to loose his/her livestock if he/she were involved in something like this.
I raised and showed cattle as a kid and I loved them like my dogs and put heaps of work into them.


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## selzer

From what I remember about 4H, it is an organization designed for children in various different interests. 4H stands for four H's, head, hand, heart, and something else. The kids meet in member houses all year long, and learn about the subject, and work together on projects. They then show a parcel of their work at the fair each year. Some 4-H groups are not animal related, but many are. And only some of them raise livestock for the table. These are shown, and then often sold at the fair to local butchers. 

There are 4-H groups that do dog obedience/dog ownership, horse riding, and all sorts of other programs. 

Two things I have heard though and that is, the 4H program is only as good as the volunteers running it, so it can be awesome, or it can be not so good. And, I heard that many of the 4H programs have been discontinued due to a lack of money and volunteers. 

I wish that people did not have to practice the shovel and shut up, part of the 3 S's. Well, I wish people did not have to shoot other people's dogs too, but if people let their dogs run loose, then other people will be forced to shoot them. But if my dog was shot, I would like to know they were gone. It is an awful thing to have a dog missing, and to not know if they are cold or scared or hungry, or in some pound somewhere waiting to be euth'd, or in the hands of some evil person who would torture the dog or use them for dog fighting. It makes you physicially ill not knowing. There are a lot of worse things that can be happening to a dog than being shot and killed by a farmer or hunter. I would like to know that was what happened, so that I would know the dog was indeed gone, and that they did not suffer terribly.

I agree though, if you don't want someone to shoot your pet, keep it under control.


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## Arc

@Gwenhwyfair

I never said anything about threatening the owner, and it is not trespassing when crossing fences is common and in mutual agreement. My neighbors and most of their friends, half of which I probably don't know, all like to camp. Given we are the closest potable water point, its not uncommon for people to crawl through the fence for water, small talk, and fresh vegetables. I personally don't care if they come to fill while I'm not around, or at night, as long as they respect the property. If I'm going for a cross country hike then I'll be jumping their fence, armed, because there are wild(feral) boars out here. This is mutual.

Not sure what kind of country side your in but most dogs here are free range and I don't know of a single house that has anything passed a cattle fence. I have yet to see any dog, coyote or otherwise with the nerve to chase the local (somewhat wild) cattle. Horses, like cows, didn't care about anything except burning hay and I am familiar with how expensive horses can be.

Rounding up a large unruly dog is hardly difficult or time consuming. Keep in mind we have tied up a husky before, called the owner and they picked up their pet. Delt with loose cows as well, some decent destruction to the yard during the wet season but I doubt my neighbor would appreciate me packing his cow in my freezer or claiming ownership of it.

Maybe its just me, but its not a question if I'll be compensated for any damage or loss and thus I'll never put livestock over someones pet. Another pet is a completely different case, like your horses, if I catch anything attacking, not chasing, my pets, its dead. My cousins' senior dog loved to chase cats if they ran, but he was too old, slow, and fat to keep up. Don't recall ever being angry with him or his dog for it since they never hurt anything.

Maybe I came across as vigilante, but my cats were used for target practice, not for destroying property or chasing livestock and that thought still angers me It was on my mind so I likely sounded harsh, its hard to put a tone or atmosphere to text, especially since I haven't posed on a forum in years.

On my last note, my neighbors will not have any issue with me looking for an animal on their land. They use it only for cattle, camping, shooting, etc. So if anything turns up with holes in it, I know who to talk to. They are good about keeping their fun pointed in a safe direction, no holes in anything in 20 years. I doubt they are responsible for what happened to my cats, they are better people than that... I hope.


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## Dainerra

Arc said:


> @Gwenhwyfair
> 
> 
> Not sure what kind of country side your in but most dogs here are free range and I don't know of a single house that has anything passed a cattle fence. I have yet to see any dog, coyote or otherwise with the nerve to chase the local (somewhat wild) cattle. Horses, like cows, didn't care about anything except burning hay and I am familiar with how expensive horses can be.
> 
> Maybe I came across as vigilante, but my cats were used for target practice, not for destroying property or chasing livestock and that thought still angers me It was on my mind so I likely sounded harsh, its hard to put a tone or atmosphere to text, especially since I haven't posed on a forum in years.
> 
> On my last note, my neighbors will not have any issue with me looking for an animal on their land. They use it only for cattle, camping, shooting, etc. So if anything turns up with holes in it, I know who to talk to. They are good about keeping their fun pointed in a safe direction, no holes in anything in 20 years. I doubt they are responsible for what happened to my cats, they are better people than that... I hope.


I'll address these 3 issues....
There are no leash laws here either. That is the biggest part of the problem. However, newcomers are quickly informed of what will happen to dogs roaming on the wrong property. I make a point of being friendly with all of those neighbors and make sure that they know my dogs. I received a call last winter asking me if my dogs had gotten out. They were both at my feet so I said "No, my dogs are right here." The neighbor said "thank you, I just wanted to be sure." About 30 seconds later BANG. 

To many of us, especially small family farms, losing even a single animal can make a huge financial hardship. Not to mention that many times our livestock is very loved. Ever had to comfort an hysterical little girl who just watched the neighbors dog tear her pet bunny into pieces? Have you ever heard a rabbit scream? There is no other sound that will give you nightmares quite like that. Ever had said neighbor just shrug and say "oh well" and you watch the dog continue to roam the neighborhood?

2nd point. It is horrible that your cats were used as target practice. But did you ever think "hey, maybe I should take steps to insure that they stay home?" Have had plenty of cats and barn cats throughout my life, never had an issue with them being shot because they didn't leave the property. No one was driving to your house and shooting those cats while they were sunning themselves on your stoop were they? 
It's the same thing with dog owners. Their dog is sweet and loving at home and they just know that it would NEVER do anything wrong. It's the big mean farmers who decided to shoot little fluffy-kins. Cats GENERALLY aren't a big problem except as nuisance animals - they poop on other people's property, spray urine if they are male, wail to high heaven if they are intact females, etc etc. One neighbor had a cat that would go into anyone's vehicle if the windows were down and use it as a litterbox. 
If I have young chicks, then YES your cat is actually a serious risk. If your cat is persistent, I'm going to be going without eggs for a few weeks because chickens spook easily and when they spook, they don't lay. (ETA - in AR, spooking an animal is also grounds for shooting. Unlike other states where the animal has to be actively attacking)

I don't have any issue with someone coming on my land to look for their animal. However, IF I was the one to shoot it, you would already know where to find it. You would have also already been warned that if I saw it here again, that it would be shot. If you let it come back, I view that as YOUR fault, not mine.
It's not a big secret that roaming dogs get shot. Except for a few people moving out from the city (we have lots of folks from Chicago and CA in the area), it's an expected part of life. The people who don't know the rules are filled in pretty quickly. The ones who raise a fuss because they lost a dog are told the facts of life by the police.


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## Lilie

Arc said:


> For those advocating shooting pets...
> 
> If you catch an animal attacking your livestock then go ahead and shoot it, I advise against it if it a first offender that has a collar, be ready to give an explanation and live with the neighbor if you do. Shooting someones pets may have repercussions, and sever ones if it was for some invalid reason like a plinker target. I've had more than enough of my out door cats come home to die with a hole in one or both lungs and it still burns me years later. Its likely someone sicko or drunk shot them for fun.


If livestock are attacked by dogs - the dog owners will find out only if the livestock owner approaches the dog owner. No explaination required. Also - if the dog owner comes creeping on the livestock owner's property looking for 'fresh graves' the dog owner could meet the same fate in some states, Texas being one. 

Most livestock owners aren't wasting their time and ammo seeking out living 'plinker targets'.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Lots of assumptions regarding the relationships between neighbors but at the end of the day if you come on to private property for the purpose of finding a 'fresh grave' your intentions are not exactly neighborly.

I grew up next to a dairy farmer and sheep farmer in the Midwest. We had a horses, chickens and small herd of beef cattle.

In the 70s we experienced growth due to urban flight. The result was a lot of loose dogs. Some attempts were made at communicating to the dog owners that it was causing a problem for farmers but mostly then went unheeded. I can assure you many dogs were shot over the years. We hate doing it but the reality is these animals were valuable to us and our farmer neighbors either as pets or as an investment, their livelihood.

Just down the road a man I know has goats, some of them are valuable. Good dairy goats are worth upwards of $3,000, $4,000 or more.

Loose or stray dogs would manage to defeat his fences from time to time and kill a few. 

Finally he got some working Great Pyrenese and you know what, those dogs don't ask questions either. Any dog messing with 'their' goats is made short work of. He's not lost a goat since getting these stock guardians. 

That's how it rolls in the country, be it the Midwest, west or here in the south...

People shooting your cats sounds different, that sounds like flat out cruelty. We always had barn cats, but they were tame and cared for and never had that happen I must say. If it did we would make them inside cats.



Arc said:


> @Gwenhwyfair
> 
> I never said anything about threatening the owner, and it is not trespassing when crossing fences is common and in mutual agreement. My neighbors and most of their friends, half of which I probably don't know, all like to camp. Given we are the closest potable water point, its not uncommon for people to crawl through the fence for water, small talk, and fresh vegetables. I personally don't care if they come to fill while I'm not around, or at night, as long as they respect the property. If I'm going for a cross country hike then I'll be jumping their fence, armed, because there are wild(feral) boars out here. This is mutual.
> 
> Not sure what kind of country side your in but most dogs here are free range and I don't know of a single house that has anything passed a cattle fence. I have yet to see any dog, coyote or otherwise with the nerve to chase the local (somewhat wild) cattle. Horses, like cows, didn't care about anything except burning hay and I am familiar with how expensive horses can be.
> 
> Rounding up a large unruly dog is hardly difficult or time consuming. Keep in mind we have tied up a husky before, called the owner and they picked up their pet. Delt with loose cows as well, some decent destruction to the yard during the wet season but I doubt my neighbor would appreciate me packing his cow in my freezer or claiming ownership of it.
> 
> Maybe its just me, but its not a question if I'll be compensated for any damage or loss and thus I'll never put livestock over someones pet. Another pet is a completely different case, like your horses, if I catch anything attacking, not chasing, my pets, its dead. My cousins' senior dog loved to chase cats if they ran, but he was too old, slow, and fat to keep up. Don't recall ever being angry with him or his dog for it since they never hurt anything.
> 
> Maybe I came across as vigilante, but my cats were used for target practice, not for destroying property or chasing livestock and that thought still angers me It was on my mind so I likely sounded harsh, its hard to put a tone or atmosphere to text, especially since I haven't posed on a forum in years.
> 
> On my last note, my neighbors will not have any issue with me looking for an animal on their land. They use it only for cattle, camping, shooting, etc. So if anything turns up with holes in it, I know who to talk to. They are good about keeping their fun pointed in a safe direction, no holes in anything in 20 years. I doubt they are responsible for what happened to my cats, they are better people than that... I hope.


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## Lilie

Gwenhwyfair said:


> We hate doing it but the reality is these animals were valuable to us and our farmer neighbors either as pets or as an investment, their livelihood.


Very true. And as sad as it sounds, many livestock owners (who count on their livestock as their livelihood) will shoot their own dogs if they can't keep them off of the livestock.


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## Gwenhwyfair

In blue, yes I've heard it and you're right, it's just an awful sound....how sad. Sorry you're little girl had to go through that. 



Dainerra said:


> I'll address these 3 issues....
> There are no leash laws here either. That is the biggest part of the problem. However, newcomers are quickly informed of what will happen to dogs roaming on the wrong property. I make a point of being friendly with all of those neighbors and make sure that they know my dogs. I received a call last winter asking me if my dogs had gotten out. They were both at my feet so I said "No, my dogs are right here." The neighbor said "thank you, I just wanted to be sure." About 30 seconds later BANG.
> 
> To many of us, especially small family farms, losing even a single animal can make a huge financial hardship. Not to mention that many times our livestock is very loved. Ever had to comfort an hysterical little girl who just watched the neighbors dog tear her pet bunny into pieces? Have you ever heard a rabbit scream? There is no other sound that will give you nightmares quite like that. Ever had said neighbor just shrug and say "oh well" and you watch the dog continue to roam the neighborhood?
> 
> <snipped>.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Yup. Sometimes they will try to rehome but especially back in the day the dog was not considered trustworthy at that point and that's the end of it. 



Lilie said:


> Very true. And as sad as it sounds, many livestock owners (who count on their livestock as their livelihood) will shoot their own dogs if they can't keep them off of the livestock.


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## Shade

My parents moved to a farm in the country when I was 19, they've been there 10 years now and we've learned the local etiquette. Occasionally dogs do get out, we know our neighbours dogs and they know ours. We all have livestock to protect and if there was an instance where damage was done, either to property or livestock the owner of the dog is responsible and if the damage was to livestock then chances are the dog would be shot. *We know those neighbours and know that they would never shoot without cause*. It's an unwritten rule and understood, the only exception is during hunting season. There are many off leash hunting dogs roaming everywhere so for those 3 weeks we are careful for both our safety and our own animal’s safety for that short time. But again, if damage is done those hunters realize that they are taking a chance of their dogs being killed. 

Then again, there have been instances where people don't understand those rules. They own 23 acres; we allow our dogs to accompany with us on hikes on our property off leash once they've demonstrated a good recall. My mother ran into a lady once walking her dog on our property, the lady had no idea that trespassing was not accepted and my mother had to tell her pretty bluntly to get off their property and don't come back. Ridiculous that she thought it would ok for her to wander around other people's property with her animal and no one would mind.

We also were visiting this winter and noticed through our window a family with their dog snowshoeing on our neighbour’s property. They crossed the property line which is marked with a fence and came onto our driveway and went up to our sheep pen and started fiddling with the gate to the pen! Needless to say my mom was fastest to the door and yelled at them to not touch the gate and leave. What they were thinking I have no idea 

In Canada we don't have the same gun laws as other countries but in the country you're legally allowed to protect yourself and your property from animals, whether domestic or wild with deadly force with no repercussions.

Personally, it’s a sad story but if the dogs truly did harm the farmers animals then they would be extremely lucky that they weren’t killed at the time, most are never given a second chance.


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## selzer

A life is a life. 

How dare any one of us take it upon themselves to give pets a free pass because they are only killing livestock. To suggest that livestock is not cared for because it will one day be in the pot, is a bit presumptuous. And, some livestock, lay eggs, produce milk or wool for us, and are not necessarily going to be for the pot. 

But evenso, while a critter is in our care, it is fed and watered daily, and it is examined, named, talked to, managed, groomed, cared for. Many a horse is every bit a pet as a house dog. Some people keep pigs in the house as pets -- I think that's crazy, but people manage to love snakes and spiders and rats, and fish and every manner of critter. 

The law generally allows for a dog that attacks livestock to be killed by the owner of the livestock, not so a dog that attacks another dog. The law does not put pets above livestock, in fact it puts them below livestock. 

The solution is really simple. Keep your pets at home. The world is a dangerous place for pets that are uncontrolled. They can get squashed in the road, stuck in a trap, killed by hunters and farmers. Why should we feel horror at the thought of our beloved pet being shot, when they could have just as easily been squished by a car? We need to manage our pets so neither happens.


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## Contrary

selzer said:


> A life is a life.
> 
> How dare any one of us take it upon themselves to give pets a free pass because they are only killing livestock. To suggest that livestock is not cared for because it will one day be in the pot, is a bit presumptuous. And, some livestock, lay eggs, produce milk or wool for us, and are not necessarily going to be for the pot.
> 
> But evenso, while a critter is in our care, it is fed and watered daily, and it is examined, named, talked to, managed, groomed, cared for. Many a horse is every bit a pet as a house dog. Some people keep pigs in the house as pets -- I think that's crazy, but people manage to love snakes and spiders and rats, and fish and every manner of critter.
> 
> The law generally allows for a dog that attacks livestock to be killed by the owner of the livestock, not so a dog that attacks another dog. The law does not put pets above livestock, in fact it puts them below livestock.
> 
> The solution is really simple. Keep your pets at home. The world is a dangerous place for pets that are uncontrolled. They can get squashed in the road, stuck in a trap, killed by hunters and farmers. Why should we feel horror at the thought of our beloved pet being shot, when they could have just as easily been squished by a car? We need to manage our pets so neither happens.


Selzer, YOU ROCK!!

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## Dainerra

Shade said:


> We also were visiting this winter and noticed through our window a family with their dog snowshoeing on our neighbour’s property. They crossed the property line which is marked with a fence and came onto our driveway and went up to our sheep pen and started fiddling with the gate to the pen! Needless to say my mom was fastest to the door and yelled at them to not touch the gate and leave. What they were thinking I have no idea


my in-laws have a boat dock on the lake. You would be amazed how many people have no second thoughts about pulling up to the dock, tying their boat to the railings and using the dock for swimming. Or getting off the dock and roaming around the property. 

On a similar note, one morning earlier this year I walked outside to find a stranger standing in my yard collecting a bouquet from my rose bush!! She acted offended that I told her to leave.  Even more when I told her to leave the roses behind. At least my house smelled nice for the next few days!


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## Arc

So much trespassing In all your areas. Aside from relatives and their friends, I have strangers occasionally come down from the interstate into the fields to take pictures during the blue bonnet season but they don't cause problems. In legalese, its trespassing, but its a hay field so no one cares. Can't blame them for stopping, field is beautiful in full bloom and some are likely driving from Houston or Austin and may never see that again.

It seems people in general have lost a lot of principle and common sense over the years. We don't have much more than a cattle fence but people still know its a property line and don't cross it without a reason for being there. When I'm more established back home I need to put a deer fence around it all, should eliminate the potential for wanderers unless they are up to no good.


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## Konotashi

I'm not sure about the status of whether these dogs are alive or have been destroyed, but I visited the FB page, and I must say - it all looks staged. 

I can almost guarantee the wounds on the pigs are not what killed them. They look old and healed over. 
The fresh wounds, in my very unprofessional opinion, don't look like dog teeth marks. There is one wound on the pig's leg that looks like it was carved out with a knife. 
The scene looks staged. 
The pigs look like they've been dead for more than a day. 

I'm not buying for a second that the dogs killed these pigs. 

On another note, I am AMAZED how many people here are saying, "They're just pigs - save the dogs!"


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## Dainerra

often, the cause of death from dogs is simply running - a dog will chase an animal in circles around the pen until it literally drops dead or breaks a leg.

Dog bite wounds will often just look like a long slash as they aren't "biting" but just a grab and pulled away.


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## Konotashi

In the photos, there is no fresh blood on the pigs and they are bloated. It looks like they have been dead for a while, and the wound edges on the pigs are clean - not rough and torn, like they would be if they were from a dog's teeth ripping at the flesh.

If you look at the FB photos, almost the entire loin (idk the correct terminology for the part of the leg) is gone. It looks like a perfectly clean cut, like someone sliced it with a knife.


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## ODINsFREKI

Sorry, shot on site in Montana for even chasing livestock or wild game.

I'd put my own dog down if he killed livestock or an elk.


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## Caitydid255

Gwenhwyfair said:


> People shooting your cats sounds different, that sounds like flat out cruelty. We always had barn cats, but they were tame and cared for and never had that happen I must say. If it did we would make them inside cats.


We've had problems with a neighbors cat. It was decimating our chickens. We thought it was a raccoon doing the damage at first, but then we saw the cat continuously pop up on the game camera we had set up by the coop. From the camera we learned that the cat was just as crafty and destructive as any raccoon. I know some people consider them "just chickens" but these were my girls, with names and who came running to be picked up when I called them. 

Another problem we have with cats is people dropping off unwanted cats at farms thinking they will be "barn cats". Barn cats are destructive creatures that ruin hay, eat barn swallows and endanger our dogs. Some farmers appreciate cats, others don't. Long story short, it doesn't matter what species the domestic animal is, uncontrolled pets create a myriad of problems for those that have livestock. Many of these issues are not understood by people who've had limited or no interaction with livestock and farming.


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## arycrest

About the attack on the pigs ... this is part of a newspaper article stating that one dog attempted to attack the pig's owner PLUS she was able to keep them in the barn until Animal Control arrived ... I honestly don't see how anyone could deny that these dogs killed the pigs. 

"*Ms. Sonnenberg says she was able to restrain the husky, which leapt over the pen wall to attack her, and kept both dogs at the scene until the animal warden arrived. The dogs had travelled 2 miles from a home in Toledo. *"
Dogs attack prize pigs in Bedford Twp. | MonroeNews.com

Article about how the kid who raised the show pigs was affected:
http://www.monroenews.com/news/2013/aug/02/after-losing-two-pigs-dog-attack-bedford-4-her-com/?news


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## lalachka

^^ easy. I'm not saying that's what happened, I didn't read the article or look at pics. But she could've had the dogs run into her barn and she just happened to have 2 dead pigs there and she blamed the dogs. 

Again, I'm not saying this happened, just answering the 'how can anyone deny...' part. 


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## arycrest

lalachka said:


> ^^ easy. I'm not saying that's what happened, I didn't read the article or look at pics. But she could've had the dogs run into her barn and she just happened to have 2 dead pigs there and she blamed the dogs.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying this happened, just answering the 'how can anyone deny...' part.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If you had read the article you would have understood why I made the "How can anyone deny ... " statement ... it was because she caught them in the act of mauling the pigs: "When Stephanie Sonnenberg went to check on her son’s prized show pigs, she walked into the barn and came upon a scene that was horrific, chaotic and even dangerous.  Two dogs were mauling the young pigs as one was screaming for its life." 

Also, keep in mind that one of the dogs went after her: "As Ms. Sonnenberg tried to intervene, one of the dogs lunged at her — shoulder high — by leaping over a three-foot stall. She was able to knock it to the side, tied it up with electrical cord and stopped the second dog from further attack."

Dogs attack prize pigs in Bedford Twp. | MonroeNews.com


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## Dainerra

lalachka said:


> ^^ easy. I'm not saying that's what happened, I didn't read the article or look at pics. But she could've had the dogs run into her barn and she just happened to have 2 dead pigs there and she blamed the dogs.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying this happened, just answering the 'how can anyone deny...' part.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


honestly, I would say it became "undeniable" when the owner of the dogs accepted fault, which she says that she did. Plus, the dogs have killed before. In most barns, it would have been a moot point because the dogs would have been shot on sight.

Even if it WAS as simple as "oh wow, I can blame the dogs because these pigs died" it is still the DOG owner's fault that they are blamed. If your dogs weren't caught in the barn, they would have never been suspects.

I find it doubtful, though, that the dogs are purely innocent. If they meant to kill, I don't know - most dog attacks are play/prey motivated vs actually trying to kill livestock. Two dogs are even worse because they will feed off of each other and work into a frenzy. The dogs are described as known in the neighborhood for bothering chickens. So it's obviously not an "oops first time they ever got out. It was an accident"


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## lalachka

arycrest said:


> If you had read the article you would have understood why I made the "How can anyone deny ... " statement ... it was because she caught them in the act of mauling the pigs: "When Stephanie Sonnenberg went to check on her son’s prized show pigs, she walked into the barn and came upon a scene that was horrific, chaotic and even dangerous.  Two dogs were mauling the young pigs as one was screaming for its life."
> 
> Also, keep in mind that one of the dogs went after her: "As Ms. Sonnenberg tried to intervene, one of the dogs lunged at her — shoulder high — by leaping over a three-foot stall. She was able to knock it to the side, tied it up with electrical cord and stopped the second dog from further attack."
> 
> Dogs attack prize pigs in Bedford Twp. | MonroeNews.com


I know what she said, if she decided to blame the dogs of course she would have a story. 

I'm not saying that's what happened. 


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## Anubis_Star

sparra said:


> Yup....it is pretty straight forward.
> 
> In most of these types of discussions the "worth" of livestock killing dogs is put above the "worth" of a mean old farmers worthless animals.
> Most fail to understand that the value of breeding stock can be more than just "replacement" value. you can't replace years of selective breeding with "meat" prices.
> Keep your dogs under control and they won't get shot/euthanized for killing livestock.....VERY simple.





llombardo said:


> Lots of people here are basing their opinions on the fact that they have livestock. I can understand this, but if there is no proof that the dogs did this, then we really should rethink that opinion. I understand there are laws and if the dogs were truly caught in the act, then I can understand some form of punishment, but that is not the case here.... There is NO evidence that these dogs did this, none whatsoever. The people who own the dogs are willing to give something, the owner of the pigs should be happy and take that, because they wouldn't be getting anything if it was a coyote or wolf that did it and it very well could have been. That isn't justice..its the same as putting a innocent person in the electric chair.





Dainerra said:


> In AR, for example, all you have to do is lose one animal to roaming dogs and it becomes legal to shoot ANY dog that enters your property. Even a single toe over the property line, no where in the vicinity of your livestock. And, believe me, most farmers around here use that law.
> 
> I can see the $40,000. Not as a reasonable amount but as a frustrated farmer saying "OK, then pay me this." In some states, you can count future earnings as part of your compensation. Say a sow can have 10 piglets a year, you can sell those for $300 each - $3000. She is breedable for 6 years, that is $18,000. A boar can sire ???? piglets - stud fee $200. I'm just making up those numbers but you get the idea. In some cases, you can add in "replacement cost + getting a pig to the status of the one you lost" So $300 for a piglet of similar linage, feed to grow it to X years old, vet costs, show costs (if you do that), etc etc
> It gets frustrating dealing with pet owners when you are a farmer in this situation. They have the "just a pig/rabbit/chicken" mentality vs a beloved member of their family. It's like having a SCHIII titled dog with the potential to start a legendary line of progeny and someone saying "oh, you can replace him easily. There are GSDs in the paper all of the time for $150" Sadly, that is how most people view replacing livestock. They really have no idea of how much $$ is invested in these animals or how much the farmer loses in future income.
> 
> I would say if the farmer DID say $40K that it was a means of getting attention as well as a starting point for a potential lawsuit - always ask for way more than you can reasonably expect to receive.
> 
> 4-H Youth Development Organization | 4-H





LARHAGE said:


> Yep, had neighbors dogs repeatedly jump into my yard and wipe out all my chickens, I angrily warned them next time there would be 2 dead Akita's in my yard, a few months later they chased a foal and bit her pastern, causing injury, the foal was not only loved every bit as much as those **** dogs were, in fact I can guarantee more, but the foal was also the result of a 2500.00 stud fee from a National Champion Arabian stallion, that result was one dead Akita and the second escaping by the skin of it's nose, later to be put down by the owner, it's really quite simple, KEEP YOUR DOGS CONTAINED!!!!!!



:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

These dogs have already *gotten out before and killed livestock!* (chickens)

They are huskies. That facebook page is a joke, only read a few posts before I had to stop. Saying the dogs couldn't of done it because they couldn't of jumped the fence? HUSKIES. Will escape, will wander, will kill.

Most livestock is worth far more than a family pet, as part of a livelihood.


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## ODINsFREKI

Nigel said:


> Actually, if it was done by a wolf there are reimbursement programs available and they are abused. Calf missing? Well it must have been a wolf, pay me. Cow dies of natural causes or sickness? Leave the carcass to be scavenged, yup you guessed it, those darn wolves again, pay me. They need very little proof, something along the lines of being within a certain distance of a known or proven wolf kill is all it takes. I haven't read up on it for a while, hopefully they have been able to curb some of the abuses.


They tried this program in Montana and had millions of dollars set aside. The account was empty within months and people could not be compensated for hybrid wolves killing their livestock. 

This year the DNRC is allowing each hunter to purchase 6 wolf tags. If that doesn't sound the old problem alarm, I don't know what will. They never admit they screw up and continue to play G-d.


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## Gwenhwyfair

*BUT* there maybe gaps and shoddy reporting here. Do YOU really know the whole story, do we have incontrovertible evidence, objective eyewitnesses and video of the incident?

OR are you making a judgment based on the preponderance of evidence?

:shrug:

(for those who may wonder why I would post the above, this is in response to the opposing argument being made in the thread regarding the neighbor who is a deputy, shooting the neighbor's dog and in that case even with an eyewitness the argument is there's not enough evidence to say the deputy is in the wrong because we can't possibly know all the details and well, you know how the 'media' is, it's very interesting how the media is so terrible in that case and we are all so judgmental against the cop but here the reasoning flip-flops)



Anubis_Star said:


> :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
> 
> These dogs have already *gotten out before and killed livestock!* (chickens)
> 
> They are huskies. That facebook page is a joke, only read a few posts before I had to stop. Saying the dogs couldn't of done it because they couldn't of jumped the fence? HUSKIES. Will escape, will wander, will kill.
> 
> Most livestock is worth far more than a family pet, as part of a livelihood.


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## Anubis_Star

Gwenhwyfair said:


> *BUT* there maybe gaps and shoddy reporting here. Do YOU really know the whole story, do we have incontrovertible evidence, objective eyewitnesses and video of the incident?
> 
> OR are you making a judgment based on the preponderance of evidence?
> 
> :shrug:
> 
> (for those who may wonder why I would post the above, this is in response to the opposing argument being made in the thread regarding the neighbor who is a deputy, shooting the neighbor's dog and in that case even with an eyewitness the argument is there's not enough evidence to say the deputy is in the wrong because we can't possibly know all the details and well, you know how the 'media' is, it's very interesting how the media is so terrible in that case and we are all so judgmental against the cop but here the reasoning flip-flops)


Now you're really just being ridiculous. There are several reports of these dogs getting out before and killing livestock (chickens). They were found in the barn with the dead pigs. Vs ONE newspaper interview with an angered owner. These cases are NOTHING alike and comparing them is just asinine.

Oh I forget thats right I shouldnt be defending the pigs owner because she isnt a cop.

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## Anubis_Star

Dont be so pathetic and grow up 

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## Gwenhwyfair

tsk tsk,

so angry?!

It's called_ logic_ hon, deal with it.




Anubis_Star said:


> Dont be so pathetic and grow up
> 
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## Anubis_Star

Gwenhwyfair said:


> tsk tsk,
> 
> so angry?!
> 
> It's called_ logic_ hon, deal with it.


Yes im angry. I just got off a 12 hr graveyard shift after losing a 4 month old puppy hit by car that we tried to save all night, while you've simply sat up all night making ridiculous references. It's so childish, feels like im back in middle school - someone doesnt agree with you so you throw out irrelevant insults. The two cases are NOTHING alike. And ive already pointed out why. If thats logic to you it's ignorance to me

Maybe im just upset because im tired and its my recently passed father's birthday tomorrow. 

The fact that you singlehandedly picked me out when most others on here AGREE with what I said and have said the same thing and then throw that other thread im the mix - THATS attacking my stance on the other thread and yes I find it childish and irritating. Point is maybe you should THINK, actually consider the other sides feelings and realize they're a person too before ignorantly attacking something that theyve simply tried to state their point of view on. I never insulted anyone else.

And dont call me hon

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## Anubis_Star

Anubis_Star said:


> Yes im angry. I just got off a 12 hr graveyard shift after losing a 4 month old puppy hit by car that we tried to save all night, while you've simply sat up all night making ridiculous references. It's so childish, feels like im back in middle school - someone doesnt agree with you so you throw out irrelevant insults. The two cases are NOTHING alike. And ive already pointed out why. If thats logic to you it's ignorance to me
> 
> Maybe im just upset because im tired and its my recently passed father's birthday tomorrow.
> 
> The fact that you singlehandedly picked me out when most others on here AGREE with what I said and have said the same thing and then throw that other thread im the mix - THATS attacking my stance on the other thread and yes I find it childish and irritating. Point is maybe you should THINK, actually consider the other sides feelings and realize they're a person too before ignorantly attacking something that theyve simply tried to state their point of view on. I never insulted anyone else.
> 
> And dont call me hon
> 
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## Gwenhwyfair

You tend to take things way too personally, like in the thread about vet techs. too.

And...if you're not in a good mood or are tired then maybe you should not be letting that out on other people on the internet. I'm not saying that to be unkind, it's a sincere suggestion.

Furthermore, I pointed a flaw in your reasoning NOT a flaw in your humanity. You, however, chose to attack me personally. Not cool if you want to make sound arguments about your point of view.

I used to debate guys who were in MENSA and yup, they often creamed my logic (or lack thereof). If I had a meltdown and called them a bunch of meanies, well that just made me look worse. I learned a lot from them and try to not attack people personally but rather support my arguments with sound arguments.

FWIW I think in this case the preponderance of evidence supports your conclusion and I agree with you in that conclusion.






Anubis_Star said:


> Yes im angry. I just got off a 12 hr graveyard shift after losing a 4 month old puppy hit by car that we tried to save all night, while you've simply sat up all night making ridiculous references. It's so childish, feels like im back in middle school - someone doesnt agree with you so you throw out irrelevant insults. The two cases are NOTHING alike. And ive already pointed out why. If thats logic to you it's ignorance to me
> 
> Maybe im just upset because im tired and its my recently passed father's birthday tomorrow.
> 
> The fact that you singlehandedly picked me out when most others on here AGREE with what I said and have said the same thing and then throw that other thread im the mix - THATS attacking my stance on the other thread and yes I find it childish and irritating. Point is maybe you should THINK, actually consider the other sides feelings and realize they're a person too before ignorantly attacking something that theyve simply tried to state their point of view on. I never insulted anyone else.
> 
> And dont call me hon
> 
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## selzer

So did they kill the livestock killer dogs yet? 

Why I want this to happen:

It is not because I hate husky mixes or because I love pigs. It is because I love dogs. The world is a terribly dangerous place for dogs who are not contained. Accidents may happen, but frankly, I think way too many people are being IRRESPONSIBLE about their containment, because they love their dogs and think they are cute, and think everyone in the world also would see how cute and loveable they are, and would go into a ditch rather than run one over, and only a monster would shoot one of them. 

I TRULY believe if ANY one of my dogs, down to my 5.5 month old puppy gets out of my yard, they WILL be shot or run over. Because I believe this, I have had one accident in 15 years, and I never, ever want to repeat it. 

We are the ones who are responsible for our dogs' safety and behavior. If two husky-mix dogs can convince a hundred facebook readers that their dog will get KILLED if it runs amok in farm country, than it is worth losing those lives. And I really don't feel all that bad for their owners. They live in farm country, they should know better. They let their dogs down. 

What everyone should walk away with is that their dogs could be DEAD. What no one should walk away with is that if enough people sign a petition, or whine about the outcome, the dogs will be allowed to live. Because people really, truly, believe that their dogs are purebred, cute, intelligent, loved enough that their fate will not be the same. 

If you love your dog, keep them at home, or they will most likely be dead.


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## Anubis_Star

selzer said:


> So did they kill the livestock killer dogs yet?
> 
> Why I want this to happen:
> 
> It is not because I hate husky mixes or because I love pigs. It is because I love dogs. The world is a terribly dangerous place for dogs who are not contained. Accidents may happen, but frankly, I think way too many people are being IRRESPONSIBLE about their containment, because they love their dogs and think they are cute, and think everyone in the world also would see how cute and loveable they are, and would go into a ditch rather than run one over, and only a monster would shoot one of them.
> 
> I TRULY believe if ANY one of my dogs, down to my 5.5 month old puppy gets out of my yard, they WILL be shot or run over. Because I believe this, I have had one accident in 15 years, and I never, ever want to repeat it.
> 
> We are the ones who are responsible for our dogs' safety and behavior. If two husky-mix dogs can convince a hundred facebook readers that their dog will get KILLED if it runs amok in farm country, than it is worth losing those lives. And I really don't feel all that bad for their owners. They live in farm country, they should know better. They let their dogs down.
> 
> What everyone should walk away with is that their dogs could be DEAD. What no one should walk away with is that if enough people sign a petition, or whine about the outcome, the dogs will be allowed to live. Because people really, truly, believe that their dogs are purebred, cute, intelligent, loved enough that their fate will not be the same.
> 
> If you love your dog, keep them at home, or they will most likely be dead.


:thumbup: well said

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## arycrest

selzer said:


> So did they kill the livestock killer dogs yet?
> 
> Why I want this to happen:
> 
> It is not because I hate husky mixes or because I love pigs. It is because I love dogs. The world is a terribly dangerous place for dogs who are not contained. Accidents may happen, but frankly, I think way too many people are being IRRESPONSIBLE about their containment, because they love their dogs and think they are cute, and think everyone in the world also would see how cute and loveable they are, and would go into a ditch rather than run one over, and only a monster would shoot one of them.
> 
> I TRULY believe if ANY one of my dogs, down to my 5.5 month old puppy gets out of my yard, they WILL be shot or run over. Because I believe this, I have had one accident in 15 years, and I never, ever want to repeat it.
> 
> We are the ones who are responsible for our dogs' safety and behavior. If two husky-mix dogs can convince a hundred facebook readers that their dog will get KILLED if it runs amok in farm country, than it is worth losing those lives. And I really don't feel all that bad for their owners. They live in farm country, they should know better. They let their dogs down.
> 
> What everyone should walk away with is that their dogs could be DEAD. What no one should walk away with is that if enough people sign a petition, or whine about the outcome, the dogs will be allowed to live. Because people really, truly, believe that their dogs are purebred, cute, intelligent, loved enough that their fate will not be the same.
> 
> If you love your dog, keep them at home, or they will most likely be dead.


:thumbup: Well stated!!!


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## nomansland4404

gsdsar said:


> Living in a livestock heavy area, I won't sign this. The dogs killed a farmers livestock. If it were my pigs,goats,sheep, I don't think they would have made it out of the barn alive. Sorry.
> 
> 
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Couldn't agree more. We have had dogs break in and kill our livestock. The dogs won't be doing that again. Some people amaze me that just because the are dog lovers it's ok for dogs to do this stuff.


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## PhoenixGuardian

We also live in a rural farm area. I have no doubt in my mind AT ALL that if any of our huskies was allowed to run completely free, they would be hit on the road, or shot. There is a chance perhaps they would be caught first, but not likely. I do feel bad for the owners, but it is THEIR fault. And I read that they had already gotten into trouble for killing livestock once before?
Last year, two husky mixes got loose a county over, and killed a bunch of sheep. I don't know if they were put down or not, but the owner was heavily fined. These livestock are peoples livelihoods, while the dogs are pets. And, knowing the husky breed, if they've done it once, they will do it again, given the chance. They are extremely smart, and odds are, they WILL be loose again and when they are, they WILL go for more farm animals. 
Does anyone know if they have been put down or not?
I hope that through all this, the owner learns to KEEP THEIR DOGS AT HOME!


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## MTGSD

I thought this was an interesting thread for some to defend what were essentially predators considering what our dogs were originally bred to do. One poster hinted on the problem of defending this wandering dogs with the comment on the great Piranese. When I was a kid a lot of ranches kept working dogs or shepherds around to deter predators. If this had been one of those places with a pair of GSD or GP around we wouldn't be reading about a poor pair of dogs who wandered into the barn; but, about a dog fight in which one wandering dog was mauled in a barn and another escaped with some poor owner wanting "viscous" dogs put down for doing their job. This is why rural people have a 3 S philosophy.


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## nomansland4404

We have had dogs break into our fences and kill our livestock. Those dogs didn't make it back out of the fence let alone home to get onto a petition. It amazes me people are ok with there dogs out running and destroying people's livelihood.


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## mcdanfam

I hate to hear of anyone's livestock or dogs dying or being put to sleep. But as a dog owner....I fully believe it is up to the owners to keep their dogs in check. 
Our Jack Russell who recently died at almost 14 years of age...was definitely the spawn of satan. He was not a kid friendly dog...the first time he nipped and growled at my niece....we started in depth training to make sure he would retreat to the bedroom when any kid walked through our door. Everyone thought we were so mean isolating him from kids and guest...we never closed him off...but he was trained to stay in the room until the guest left. As guest or kids left, he would come back to join the family. Knowing he was capable of bitting AT a child...we knew we could not take any risk if we did not want to face the consequence of authorities putting him down if he did bite someone. 
Now owning two German shepherd pups, we are very cautious and careful. They do not play alone in the fence, because they are so adventurous and love agility...we fear if they get out they will be hit or judged..,,as some people like to label shepherd "bully breed". If someone were to believe they may hurt a child...I as a parent would have to respect their desire to protect their child. Even though I know they would never hurt a child (they love kids and are therapy dogs) a stranger does not know that. They do look intimidating....as a parent I would question a strange dog coming at my children. 
As dog owners.....you have to go above and beyond to make see your dogs are not a threat to other people or animals. 
It is a sad story in both sides....but if the dogs have attacked before....and this was not the first offense....it sounds like it would happen again...I don't think anyone would be feeling sorry for the dog if it was a child attacked...if the dogs were willing to corner the lady...to could be a kid next time. 



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