# My dog bit neighbor / I NEED HELP



## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

I have a 6 year old GSD who has never bitten anyone. He has barked and has been aggressive to other dogs. I live in a highly wooded area on 10 acres. a neighbor came through the woods and walked up to the corner of my house. Needless to say, my dog and i were both spooked. my dog charged my neighbor and bit him in the elbow. Neighbor is fine, but shook up and obviously distressed by the situation.

You can imagine the feelings I'm having right now.

Do I put the dog down? I would hate to do that. What can I do to tame this agression and dominance?

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Why would you put your dog down? If the dog really wanted to do damage there would be more than a bite on the elbow where the neighbor was still "fine"

Put up a fence. Your dog was startled and reacted. Was it appropriate aggression? Possibly..possibly not. None of us were there. So put up a fence to keep him contained.


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## Chief2 (Jul 28, 2013)

I wouldn't rush to that. Isolated incident. Sounds like the neighbor should maybe not come on your property without invitation/advanced warning. Your dog was protecting you and his home. I'm sorry this happened.


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## Diesel and Lace (Apr 15, 2013)

AlexWayne said:


> Needless to say, my dog and i were both spooked. .


This says it all. You were spooked which sent a rush of signals to your dog that you were not ok and he reacted the way any dog any breed would. I had a golden retriever who was the biggest love bug ever, someone came into my house unannounced and startled me, guess what they got bit. 

I dont think your dog did anything wrong he was reacting to a situation. Keep him contained if you think its something that is an issue otherwise tell people to not show up and scare the crap out of you or they will get bit.


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> So put up a fence to keep him contained.


where my home is, in the woods, it is almost impossible to put up a fence the terrain is rough and it is heavily wooded. I could keep him on the deck. Or muzzled when he is on our property.

I'm just really shook up about it.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog.
Dogs have teeth! 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Mrs.K said:


> A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog.
> Dogs have teeth!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


*Like!*


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

your neighbor was in the wrong. your dog bit a trespasser on YOUR property. You also likely sent signals to your dog that there was a threat. If your dog wanted to do real damage, he would have. This isn't an incident I'd euthanize a dog for. He was doing his job. Not to say biting is alright but your neighbor spooked you and your dog reacted to the trespasser. Someone comes on my property in the woods, I'd expect my dogs would react similarly if it came down to it. Post signs around your property if a fence isn't doable.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

You sound really stressed and concerned. Do not make any decisions until you can calm down a bit.

Was your dog leashed during the biting incident? Can you just walk with your dog leashed, or make a large outdoor pen for now?

If you live in a remote area I suppose your dog has not been exposed a lot to other dogs. Can you do more leash walks in areas where you might encounter more dogs? If yes, then of course for now don't get too close to them, but just let your dog be around them, give your dog treats when he sees a dog and remains calm. A trainer would help, but until you find one, I hope this helps.

I hope your neighbor forgives you and understands how upset you are.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Besides containment, work on recall, down stay and leave it. We have had a couple incidents where leave it kept a non-incident a non-incident. Life is full of unexpected things, best to be as prepared as possible.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

AlexWayne said:


> I have a 6 year old GSD who has never bitten anyone. He has barked and has been aggressive to other dogs. I live in a highly wooded area on 10 acres. a neighbor came through the woods and walked up to the corner of my house. Needless to say, my dog and i were both spooked. my dog charged my neighbor and bit him in the elbow. Neighbor is fine, but shook up and obviously distressed by the situation.
> 
> You can imagine the feelings I'm having right now.
> 
> ...


Its not dominance. 1) your neighbor was in the wrong. 2) it sounds like it was a quick bite and release? If so this is a defensive bite, and attempt to make the intruder flee. It is an appropriate response particularly if you were also startled/giving off signals you were scared. 

I'd work on getting solid down/recall from a distance with a toy/no stress environment. Once that is very solid, then do so when there is someone or something to alert on in the far away woods with some way to contain the dog if he blows you off. It would help to have an experienced trainer on hand to help guide you


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

I would not put the dog down. If the dog wanted to hurt the neighbor he would be getting stitches. 

My oldest dog has yeasty paws. He licks and chews at them. Sometimes when he's really into it and I try to stop him he gives me a warning bite. It does not break skin and doesn't really hurt. He gets corrected for doing that, but there is a difference between that and attacking someone.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

What the heck was your neighbor doing?? You said he's fine. Did you have a conversation with him about the incident? Does he understand why your dog reacted?

A big NO to putting this boy down. No muzzles while he is enjoying his own property.

Listen to hunterisgreat


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I dont get it.. You have a GERMAN SHEPHERD I dont see why you are surprised. Someone surprised both of you on your property (his territory). You were scared he bit the threat. I fail to see the issue. If you want more control do some obedience work and develop offleash control. Unless the dog attacks everyone he sees I dont see a problem.


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

*Leave it?*



Nigel said:


> Besides containment, work on recall, down stay and leave it. We have had a couple incidents where leave it kept a non-incident a non-incident. Life is full of unexpected things, best to be as prepared as possible.


Can someone help me understand "leave it" how is that taught?

I have worked with my dog on down stay, but not with this type of stimulus - neighbor coming out of knowwhere.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the dog did no wrong. the neighbour appeared out of the woods without so much as calling from a distance to alert you. That was a bit of an ambush .
He is lucky he wasn't shot , as some people might have done . Both of you were startled -


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

People shouldn't sneak up to you on your property. You were spooked. Normally, you have ten acres, and your dog is fine running along with you enjoying his wide open space. This is wonderful. If you _know _someone is coming by, you can put a leash on the dog, no problems. 

I probably would work on a good recall, and as soon as I saw someone on the property, I would call the dog to me, and connect a short leash, a tab, I could have in my pocket or connected to a belt loop. That of course would not work if the person totally spooked you and the dog. No warning. 

Accidents can happen. I think your dog did ok. He did not maul the person, you were spooked, the dog was spooked, the dog reacted. 

I do not see this as dominance or anything you want to train out of the dog. The dog is a German Shepherd Dog, and they were bred to herd and guard the flocks and farm. 

The only thing you can really do is train a strong recall and an emergency down. Then in an instant you can give your dog a command that gets the dog over to you, or puts him in the down position, which allows both of you to get your bearings, and see if the person is friend or foe. Also, it is much better to give your dog a command of what to do, than to try to give the dog a command of what not to do. "NO! No BITE!" If the dog knows what BITE is, in the heat of the moment he would be much more likely to take your scared tone, your neighbor's fear, and the word BITE and go for it. Intead a DOWN! that you have trained like a game until your dog is dropping immedieately when ever you say this, then the dog drops, and by then, everyone may be better controlled. A dog can still be alert.


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## The Packman (Jan 31, 2011)

I'd put up a bunch of _BEWARE OF DOG_ signs if I were you.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

AlexWayne said:


> I have a 6 year old GSD who has never bitten anyone. He has barked and has been aggressive to other dogs. I live in a highly wooded area on 10 acres. a neighbor came through the woods and walked up to the corner of my house. Needless to say, my dog and i were both spooked. my dog charged my neighbor and bit him in the elbow. Neighbor is fine, but shook up and obviously distressed by the situation.
> 
> You can imagine the feelings I'm having right now.
> 
> ...


 
Neighbor should not have been there. He was breaking the law by trespassing. Dog was doing what he was suppose to do. He shouldn't be punished for that. The neighbor should be told not to do this again. That is why you bought acreage right? Some space?

As far as the leave it command, it would be easier to understand and execute if you had a trainer show you. Just my opinion. Also, like others have mentioned, you'd be better off using a down recall instead. I think it would just be easier to train. Again, just my opinion.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

the GSD you have did what he was supposed to do, protect you, like its been posted, put up some signs, get into some training


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Copied these directions for "leave it" if I explained it you and I would both be lost. In your situation a down stay or being able to recall your dog immediately would probably be more appropriate, but I find myself using leave it if there is a squirrel, cat or some other high distraction. When Ranger was a pup, my sisters wiener dog bolted through a door in attempt to attack him, he is DA and they had just got him from a rescue. My two older GSDs came running at him, rolled him, but stopped short of doing anything else after they were told to leave it.

Step One: Get the Behavior

Sit down with your dog and show him that you have a treat tucked in your hand.

Say “Leave it,” and then hold out your hand with the treat enclosed in your fist so that he can’t get it. Let your dog lick and sniff your closed hand. He may mouth, paw it or bark. Ignore all this, say and do nothing and just wait.
After several seconds, your dog will stop trying to get the treat. The instant he moves his head away from your fist, say “Yes!” Then immediately give him a treat from your other hand.
Repeat this sequence at least ten times until your dog visibly moves away from your closed fist as soon as you present it to him and say “Leave it.” Some dogs learn this in one session. Others will need more practice over a couple of days.
Step Two: Increase the Difficulty

The next step is to teach your dog to look at you in order to earn the treat.

1. Hold the treat in your hand, say “Leave it” and wait.

2. When your dog doesn’t hear “Yes!” he’ll probably look up at you. The instant he looks at you, say “Yes!” and offer the treat to him in your open palm.

3. Perform at least 40 more repetitions until your dog makes direct eye contact with you when he hears “Leave it.” He’s now learned that the way to get you to give him a treat is to look at you.

4. To perfect this behavior even more, you can delay your “Yes!” by a second or so at first so that your dog has to look up at you longer to earn the treat. Over many repetitions, gradually increase the delay until your dog will stare at you for as long as five to ten seconds before earning your “Yes!” and a treat.

Step Three: Practice on the Floor

The next step is to practice with the treat in plain view on the floor. At this stage, use so-so treats for the bait and higher-value treats for rewards. So you might place a piece of kibble or dry dog biscuit on the floor and use pieces of chicken or steak to reward your dog.

Say “Leave it,” place the bait on the floor and then cover the bait with your hand. Just as you did before, wait until your dog stops trying to get at the bait.
The moment your dog looks at you, say “Yes!” remove the bait from the floor, and reward your dog with a really tasty treat from your other hand.
Repeat this exercise at least 40 times until your dog no longer tries to get the bait from the floor but just looks up at you instead.
Now say “Leave it,” place the bait on the floor and then hold your hand an inch or two above the bait. Repeat as above, gradually raising your hand higher over many practice repetitions. It’s important not to let your dog get the bait from the floor! Occasional mistakes happen, though, so if your dog does snatch the boring treat from the floor, say “Oh, too bad,” show him the tasty treat you had for him (you can let him sniff it) and toss it in the sink or eat it yourself! Please note that some dogs may become aggressive over food placed on the floor, as though once it’s on the floor, the dog “owns” it. If you suspect your dog might do this, consult a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist (CAAB or ACAAB) or a board-certified veterinary behaviorist (Dip ACVB). Please see our article, Finding Professional Help, to locate one of these experts in your area. If you can’t find a behaviorist, you can hire a Certified Professional Dog Trainer (CPDT). Just be sure that the trainer is qualified to help you. Determine whether she or he has education and experience in treating aggression, since this expertise isn’t required for CPDT certification.
When your dog is successful at responding when you say “Leave it” with your hand about six inches above the bait, you’re ready to practice standing up. Put your dog on a leash and stand next to the bait. Tell him “Leave it,” and if he tries to snatch the bait, use your foot to cover it.
Wait for your dog to look at you and when he does, say “Yes!” and give him a tasty treat from your hand. With enough repetitions, you should be able to walk your dog up to and past baits on the floor and, when your dog hears “Leave it,” he should look up at you in anticipation of a really yummy treat. Be advised that if your dog is straining at the end of the leash to get at the bait, you need to repeat earlier training steps until your dog thoroughly understands that he should ignore what’s on the floor and look up at you instead.
Step Four: Practice in the Real World

The final step is to practice your dog’s training in the real world. Eventually, you’ll want your dog to be able to respond to your “Leave it” cue when he sees all kinds of things he should leave alone, such as food dropped on the kitchen floor, spilled prescription drugs, dangerous objects on the sidewalk, your neighbor’s cat, etc. It’s not safe to practice with anything that might hurt your dog if he accidentally gets it, but you can practice with a variety of safe objects in many different situations and locations. Practice with food, toys, laundry, interesting objects around your house, tissues and other kinds of safe trash. Practice in all the rooms in your house, at your friends’ houses, in your yard and anywhere else you take your dog. It’s especially useful to practice when on walks:

Place baits in obvious places along your walking route, and then take your dog for a walk.
As you approach a bait, point at it (if necessary), tell him to “Leave it” and keep walking. If he strains at the leash toward the bait, stop out of range of the bait, and wait for him to remember that he’s supposed to look at you.
When he looks at you, say “Yes!” and give a few tasty treats as you move along. Don’t worry that he didn’t respond to your “Leave it” the way you had hoped, and don’t discipline him. Just continue to practice with more bait laid in his path.
Once your dog is responding well when you say “Leave it” on your practice walks, he will likely respond in the same way when you come across real garbage. Always be prepared to reward your dog with praise and treats when he responds to the “Leave it” cue. Your dog will continue to improve as long as you help him practice and keep rewarding him for good behavior.


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## Markobytes (Sep 11, 2012)

I am glad you are taking this seriously but you have not given any reason for putting your dog down. Your dog showed restraint in his bite or your neighbor would have ended up in the hospital. There is nothing in your account that makes me think of dominance. A reliable recall and down are great ideas and can help but your dog needs to have a positive association to strangers. How much socialization did your dog get by the time it was 4 months old? You need to control your emotions and not be in fear of how your dog will react as you are telling your dog there is something to fear and you are triggering a negative response. Practice by having people come over to the house have the dog sit give him treats as a reward then have your guests give him treats. Your neighbor innocently placed himself in a bad spot, you reacted and your dog was placed in a gray area where he had to make a decision for himself. Take control not by beating the dog but by giving him direction, have him look to you to make the decisions, be proactive.


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## Markobytes (Sep 11, 2012)

Leave it is another good tool and will go a long way in having the dog look to you for direction. Avoid beware of dog signs they are an admission you have a problem dog you can't control, Firearms in use may be a better sign or something like admittance only by the prior consent of the owner.


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## Myah's Mom (Mar 25, 2013)

If I have the facts straight:
Dog is off leash on your acreage.
Stranger comes on property.
Both of you are spooked.
Dog cues from you that you're spooked.
Dog bites person's elbow.

Dog is doing his job. He took his cue from you; unfortunately, it just didn't work out. It would be a different story if you gave "it's okay, it's a friendly person" cue and the dog still went after him.

Even though you're on an acreage, do you have signs "Beware of Dog" in enough conspicuous places so that people who come up to your house are aware and are choosing to take their chances?

Just my two cents.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

people who says the dog is doing its job are joking right? what if it was a little kid that jumped out to surprise you? is the dog still doing its job if it charges and bites the kid? being spooked is one thing. but the dog should have recovered and realize your neighbor was not a threat instead of running up to bite him. i mean im sure he's seen your neighbor plenty of times. just because you get spooked doesnt justify a dog running up to someone and biting them. also just because its the dog "property" doesnt justify him biting anyone. but no you shouldnt put the dog down. just be more alert next time. a dog with a very low threshold will react first and think later.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

people really need to understand what trespassing really is (talking in general, not just about this case). just because a stranger steps on your property does not make it trespassing. if i was walking through your yard to your front door and your dog bit me and i sued, i'd win. doesnt matter if the dog is "on his property". unless you verbal tell someone to stay away or lock your gates or have a no trespassing sign, it is an "implied" invitation that a stranger can come onto your property for common things like asking you a question or ask for directions or sell you something. people think if someone steps on their property its automatically trespassing; well its really not. 

so i'd suggest you put up no trespassing and guard dog on duty signs. if a stranger knows the risk and continues on then they cant sue because they were warned of the danger and took the risk anyways.


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## angryrainbow (Jul 1, 2012)

boomer11 said:


> people who says the dog is doing its job are joking right? what if it was a little kid that jumped out to surprise you? is the dog still doing its job if it charges and bites the kid? being spooked is one thing. but the dog should have recovered and realize your neighbor was not a threat instead of running up to bite him. i mean im sure he's seen your neighbor plenty of times. just because you get spooked doesnt justify a dog running up to someone and biting them. also just because its the dog "property" doesnt justify him biting anyone. but no you shouldnt put the dog down. just be more alert next time. a dog with a very low threshold will react first and think later.


Why would a little kid wander through 10 acres of wooded land to find someone they don't even know to pop out and say "boo"? 

& what makes you think he has seen the neighbors many times ? I've lived in a rural area on only 2 acres for 4 years, my dog hasn't met half of my neighbors (and neither have I!). We only see the ones on either side of us when they're going to work / getting home, and they've never came on to our property.

I'm interested as to why OPs neighbor went onto their property though..


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## AugustGSD (Mar 29, 2013)

The neighbor is at fault, IMHO. He shouldn't have spooked you or the dog. Could he have come from the front of your property, or perhaps called out to you before he got close enough to scare you?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

boomer11 said:


> people who says the dog is doing its job are joking right? what if it was a little kid that jumped out to surprise you? is the dog still doing its job if it charges and bites the kid? being spooked is one thing. but the dog should have recovered and realize your neighbor was not a threat instead of running up to bite him. i mean im sure he's seen your neighbor plenty of times. just because you get spooked doesnt justify a dog running up to someone and biting them. also just because its the dog "property" doesnt justify him biting anyone. but no you shouldnt put the dog down. just be more alert next time. a dog with a very low threshold will react first and think later.


No joke. The dogs are bred to herd sheep and guard the farm from predators, including the two-legged kind. A dog is ONLY a dog for crying out loud. Not only was the dog spooked by the sudden appearance of a stranger on his property, he immediately realized his owner was spooked too. So there is something totally out of the ordinary and his diety is giving off the I'm startled, shocked, scared, worried vibes. The dog did a whole lot better than if it ran behind her and shook. 

It went forward and grabbed a limb. It did not go for the throat. Good dog! One bite, no mauling, and oh well for the person who walked up to a person's home in a remote area without letting her know he was coming over. 

If he was a peeping Tom, none of us would feel even a little bit upset that Peeper got bit. How is a dog supposed to tell the difference between someone there to spy on you, look through your windows, check out your new lawn equipment, or bring you a piece of mail left at their home? Our dogs take those cues from us AND the probably perp. My guess is that the man was startled too when everyone turned the corner. 

It was an idiotic thing to do to walk over someone's property and pop in on them. Especially if the mail is delivered to the road, and this is not a direct route to the front door. If it is a direct route to the front door, then an argument can be made that we really need to be more careful about our dogs and access to the public. 

But just not having No Trespassing signs is NOT an invitation to walk all over someone's property. 

Usually if you see someone walking up your driveway toward your front door, your initial response is not strong fear. The dog too, might bark and go forward but it is just an alert. The people may stop, they may even be a little fearful, but if you call the dog and it comes, you can then ask the people what their business is and go from there. It is really not the same as turning a corner on your property and running into a neighbor -- that is scary. The guy should have called and told the OP that he was stopping by. 

And for heaven's sake, I am sick and tired of hearing "what if it is a little kid?" So what if it is IS a little kid? If a little kid pops out at you when you are on your property with your dog, then they will probably learn that that wasn't such a great idea. Little kids learn not to turn on gravel when riding their bikes by sliding out and falling. They get torn clothes, road rash, blood, and sometimes even a broken bone. Let's sue all the maker's of bicycles and or gravel because, gee, what if it is a little kid?

The chances are that a dog will not go to the same extent with a LITTLE kid as they go with a well-grown kid or adult. But we really can't count on every dog to have that kind of discretion. We hope so. And often our dogs do surprise us. But we cannot count on it. At the same time what is the point of having a PPD if any type of PP is going to get the dog in trouble? 

If a little kid is where it is on your property without your consent is a little different than if you are out in public with your dog and have to be ready for anything.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

:thumbup::thumbup: Spot on Sue.

In blue, true you cannot count on it but a dog with good temperament and socialization usually does not see children as threats, this is supposed to be one of the qualities of a good GSD. Smitty and Ilda are different with kids, they really are. Less suspicious and Smitty just melts around kids. Ilda assesses them, determines they are *just* kids and moves on with patrol duty. LOL! 

(It's my little Aussie I have to watch more closely with kids!)




selzer said:


> No joke. The dogs are bred to herd sheep and guard the farm from predators, including the two-legged kind. A dog is ONLY a dog for crying out loud. Not only was the dog spooked by the sudden appearance of a stranger on his property, he immediately realized his owner was spooked too. So there is something totally out of the ordinary and his diety is giving off the I'm startled, shocked, scared, worried vibes. The dog did a whole lot better than if it ran behind her and shook.
> 
> It went forward and grabbed a limb. It did not go for the throat. Good dog! One bite, no mauling, and oh well for the person who walked up to a person's home in a remote area without letting her know he was coming over.
> 
> ...


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

I am the OP and I have been so upset with this it's crazy. I am just beside myself and cannot shake it off. It is the first time he ever went after someone like that.....

The neighbor did acknowledge that he learned his lesson not to come through the woods unannounced. The problem is I don't know if I should leave him run around the property now.

Anyway, I have a well known behaviorist who is going to meet with me tomorrow night. We'll discuss the situation and go from there. I agree that we were indeed spooked. But I think I need to reduce some of my dog's territorial aggression. 

Again, the dog did a bite and release resulting in mainly an abrasion on the elbow with minor bleeding and some bruising. A slight nip in the butt on the way down. After the dog released, he went and sat down. I don't know if that is odd or not.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> people who says the dog is doing its job are joking right? what if it was a little kid that jumped out to surprise you? is the dog still doing its job if it charges and bites the kid? being spooked is one thing. but the dog should have recovered and realize your neighbor was not a threat instead of running up to bite him. i mean im sure he's seen your neighbor plenty of times. just because you get spooked doesnt justify a dog running up to someone and biting them. also just because its the dog "property" doesnt justify him biting anyone. but no you shouldnt put the dog down. just be more alert next time. a dog with a very low threshold will react first and think later.


Thanks for writing this - I felt like I was the only person besides the OP that felt this way. What if his neighbor wanted to stop by to share veggies from his garden or something? I'm glad AlexWayne is seeing this as an opportunity to fine tune his dog's behavior. If this were my dog, I'd probably still feel uneasy today about what happened, even if it was not our fault.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Gretchen said:


> Thanks for writing this - I felt like I was the only person besides the OP that felt this way. What if his neighbor wanted to stop by to share veggies from his garden or something? I'm glad AlexWayne is seeing this as an opportunity to fine tune his dog's behavior. If this were my dog, I'd probably still feel uneasy today about what happened, even if it was not our fault.


I agree that there should be more training & control, and other measures taken to prevent this in the future (warning sign, a fence, a conversation for the neighbor to call before coming over), however this is normal for a GSD. 

if you want a "greet-any-and-everyone-with-a-wet-tongue dog" then a GSD isn't for you. If you want a dog that plays well with other dogs then an APBT isn't for you. If you want a dog that will never wander off b/c a deer farted upwind, a hound dog isn't for you. I find it counterproductive when people are surprised or play the blame game when a dog is doing what that dog breed is bred to do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I see it as an unfortunate accident, that you both come across each other so quickly that everyone including the dog was startled. Is this likely to happen again? 

I wasn't there. The OP was. Maybe there are components of the incident that weren't spelled out that make her believe that this is more of a behavioral problem than we read. 

I also agree with hunter that if you want a dog that will lassie up to anyone in any situation, maybe this isn't the breed you want. If I had ten wooded acres, I think I would like to have a dog that was more on the aloof, suspicious side than the Lassie side. Oh and, a collie probably would have done the same thing as a GSD in this. 

I suppose the best reaction would have been a bark and hold -- no bite. But I think you really need to train your dog in protection, to teach him what he should do in situations like this. 

I really wouldn't fault the dog much for this the way it was written up.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

selzer said:


> No joke. The dogs are bred to herd sheep and guard the farm from predators, including the two-legged kind. A dog is ONLY a dog for crying out loud. Not only was the dog spooked by the sudden appearance of a stranger on his property, he immediately realized his owner was spooked too. So there is something totally out of the ordinary and his diety is giving off the I'm startled, shocked, scared, worried vibes. The dog did a whole lot better than if it ran behind her and shook.


so just because the owner was "spooked" justifies the dog biting? the owner wasnt screaming and yelling and was scared because their life was in danger. they were spooked and then recovered. also the dog CHARGED at the person. that means they didnt turn the corner at the same time and ran into each other. if someone snuck up and then tapped a dog on the butt and it turned around and nailed them then i understand. but if the person is at a distance and the dog runs up to bite then thats wrong and anyone who thinks thats normal and ok is wrong  if you tap me on the shoulder and it startles me and i turn around and smack you in the face then thats reaction. if you yell at me from a short distance and i turn around and go towards you to smack you then thats not reaction. just my opinion of course. at least the owner realizes the dog is a bit more aggressive then should be and is seeking help instead of going good dog like most of the responses on here.


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

selzer said:


> I suppose the best reaction would have been a bark and hold -- no bite.


this is honestly what I was thinking......earlier today.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

yeah i got a german shepherd to GUARD and PROTECT, not to attack. if someone comes on my property i want the dog to be aloof and bark. if the person attacks the dog or me then i want it to bite. if a dogs first instinct to a strange situation is to go forward and bite then that is not a breed standard german shepherd. a german shepherd should not bite unless it is being attacked or provoked like it was about to be attacked or is commanded to attack. anything else means its an aggressive or fearful dog.


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> yeah i got a german shepherd to GUARD and PROTECT, not to attack. if someone comes on my property i want the dog to be aloof and bark. if the person attacks the dog or me then i want it to bite. if a dogs first instinct to a strange situation is to go forward and bite then that is not a breed standard german shepherd. a german shepherd should not bite unless it is being attacked or provoked like it was about to be attacked or is commanded to attack. anything else means its an aggressive or fearful dog.


What is probably the most disconcerting to me is that he has always been territorial....but just barking. NEVER biting. This situation was different. He charged the guy.....I don't know if I gave off a wrong signal or the neighbor was just so close (which he was). My neighbor was right next to the corner of the house. And we didn't literally hear him until he said, "Hey." I'll be honest, he spooked me so the dog must have picked up on that. Off property, the dog doesn't even bark at people. I appreciate everyone's input as I want to address this asap and be able to avoid this type of situation in the future.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> so just because the owner was "spooked" justifies the dog biting? the owner wasnt screaming and yelling and was scared because their life was in danger. they were spooked and then recovered. also the dog CHARGED at the person. that means they didnt turn the corner at the same time and ran into each other. if someone snuck up and then tapped a dog on the butt and it turned around and nailed them then i understand. but if the person is at a distance and the dog runs up to bite then thats wrong and anyone who thinks thats normal and ok is wrong  if you tap me on the shoulder and it startles me and i turn around and smack you in the face then thats reaction. if you yell at me from a short distance and i turn around and go towards you to smack you then thats not reaction. just my opinion of course. at least the owner realizes the dog is a bit more aggressive then should be and is seeking help instead of going good dog like most of the responses on here.


thats not aggression, thats defense. Aggression doesn't bite and then disengage. And if i was in my house and turned around and you're in my kitchen and I don't know you, coming after you and attacking you is appropriate lol


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

boomer11 said:


> yeah i got a german shepherd to GUARD and PROTECT, not to attack. if someone comes on my property i want the dog to be aloof and bark. if the person attacks the dog or me then i want it to bite. if a dogs first instinct to a strange situation is to go forward and bite then that is not a breed standard german shepherd. a german shepherd should not bite unless it is being attacked or provoked like it was about to be attacked or is commanded to attack. anything else means its an aggressive or fearful dog.


consider he is in an area that is remote and likely sees little frequent coming and going... the dog likely views an intruder into the yard as no different than how you would view an intruder into the house


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

Okay, so many of you read the story.

Is it too late in this dog's life (6 years) to resolve this territorial behavior?


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

What does territorial aggression mean to you?


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

Courtney said:


> What does territorial aggression mean to you?


no charging, and definitely no more biting. Once is enough.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

AlexWayne said:


> What is probably the most disconcerting to me is that he has always been territorial....but just barking. NEVER biting. This situation was different. He charged the guy.....I don't know if I gave off a wrong signal or the neighbor was just so close (which he was). My neighbor was right next to the corner of the house. And we didn't literally hear him until he said, "Hey." I'll be honest, he spooked me so the dog must have picked up on that. Off property, the dog doesn't even bark at people. I appreciate everyone's input as I want to address this asap and be able to avoid this type of situation in the future.


we can't see it so we can't say with any certainty. I can tell you if I were in my backyard and someone rounded the corner and said "Hey" and startled me, they are going to get charged and probably mess their pants. My dogs, however, understand when it is appropriate, and when it is not appropriate, to actually bite because we spend time training this behavior. You should do the same, or take measures to ensure that situation doesn't play out again as I mentioned before...


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

You can't make the dog not be protective of his territory. Thats deeply engrained in the genes


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks Hunter


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

AlexWayne said:


> Thanks Hunter


You really have two options... training to ensure you can call off or abort his action when in that state, or simply don't allow him to ever be in that state of mind while also able to execute the drive-goal (meaning the defensive bite) via a fence, warning to neighbors, leashed, keep him inside, etc. Or do both, which is probably the ideal approach


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think it would be best to get your dog assessed by a person who trains dogs in schutzhund or protection work, and explain what happened fully to them. 

At least choose someone who has plenty of experience working with, preferably owning working dogs/GSDs. 

Training a dog in the protection phase of shutzhund will improve the bond between you and the dog, and make it LESS likely for the dog to bite inappropriately, as it is about control. You will work with the dog, and you will teach him to bark and hold, and to bite on command, and to out immediately. 

The dog is not too old to learn, but he may not have the right temperament for protection training.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

A fearful dog would flee given the opportunity which this dog had out in the open, a truly aggressive dog would have done a lot more damage.

Actually this dog sounds like it did neither. 

After you've been around and trained with protection and SchH dogs too (learning about the drives in protection, like Hunter mentioned, defense is one) you'll learn to discern the differences.

We weren't there but from the brief description provided this sounds like an untrained dog behaving with the correct instincts for the breed.

I hope Alex takes Hunter's and Selzer's suggestions.




boomer11 said:


> yeah i got a german shepherd to GUARD and PROTECT, not to attack. if someone comes on my property i want the dog to be aloof and bark. if the person attacks the dog or me then i want it to bite. if a dogs first instinct to a strange situation is to go forward and bite then that is not a breed standard german shepherd. a german shepherd should not bite unless it is being attacked or provoked like it was about to be attacked or is commanded to attack. anything else means its an aggressive or fearful dog.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

selzer said:


> I think it would be best to get your dog assessed by a person who trains dogs in schutzhund or protection work, and explain what happened fully to them.
> 
> At least choose someone who has plenty of experience working with, preferably owning working dogs/GSDs.
> 
> ...


Having met selzer in person once, and read many of her posts, I'd say she is dead on here, and follow her advice (and hunter's). In my inexperienced opinion, the dog didn't do anything wrong, you just want to have better control over him to avoid it happening again with a worse outcome. And no matter how many people say, "You can't teach an old dogs new tricks." it's not true. Old dogs can learn quite well, and six isn't even that old. Anyway, good on you for being proactive and wanting to do what you can to improve your dog so you can both feel more confident in each other.


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## Deno (Apr 3, 2013)

This was all human error. As for containment, an invisible fence works great. 
Again, the dog was not at fault.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

In this case, to me, this sounds like the dog did it's job. Protected the home and the owner. The dogs know the owners reaction so if the owner is in distress, the dog reacted. I would not say the dog is aggressive in this isolated case. I know it's scary, but what if this was not a neighbor? but, an intruder! I see human error here, the guest was uninvited on the property. I don't know you or your dog, but sounds like you have a very loyal pup who would give his life for yours.


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## redandgold (Jul 2, 2013)

He was just protecting you. having him put down???


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## kjdreyer (Feb 7, 2013)

I can understand why you're shook up by this, I wouldn't want to see my dog bite someone either, unless they really needed biting. And your plan with the behaviorist is an excellent idea. But please, don't beat yourself up, or be anxious about your dog, any more! Your dog wasn't wildly inappropriate or vicious in my opinion. It sounds like he was just being a dog - and dogs are territorial, and do protect their territory and their people. The behaviorist can probably work with you on training your dog to act more in line with your expectations by setting up some practice scenarios, but I think you're being too hard on yourself. Good luck!


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## GSDMUM (Aug 18, 2011)

Don't blame your dog. It was you rneighbor's fault as he was on YOUR property!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I live in the middle of ten acres that's all wooded, I had a neighbor come through my back woods on the opposite side of the house, my DDR female nailed him. I called her off of the bite, my neighbor acknowledged that he knew he should have come down driveway where he has never had a problem with her. I said Yep!.....Bottom line is my dog did right! It could have just as easily been a bad guy and only my wife home.....she is secure where we live partially because she knows somebody would have to come through the dog if it was a stranger and she showed fear. BTW, if he had been a small child, she would not have bit them cause she likes kids. 
Your dog did good! If a person comes ten acres far into private property through a not familiar way to the dog, I would expect the dog to react....this is what a guardian does and I think that is in the standard.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

AlexWayne said:


> I am the OP and I have been so upset with this it's crazy. I am just beside myself and cannot shake it off. It is the first time he ever went after someone like that.....
> 
> The neighbor did acknowledge that he learned his lesson not to come through the woods unannounced. The problem is I don't know if I should leave him run around the property now.
> I agree that we
> ...


I hope the OP returns with an update, how did it go with the behaviorist? 

I agree with Cliff and Hunter, the dog did what GSD's are bred to do.

I don't really see the need to have a behaviorist evaluation for understanding that.


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## AlexWayne (Aug 5, 2013)

*Original poster update*

ORIGINAL POSTER UPDATE...

Okay, I had the dog assessed. He really isn't fear or dominant agressive...as much as he is defensive on his own property. Off property, he behaves completely fine.

He is going through some pack order changes due to the recent loss of another GSD. So, I have the Leerburg video on dealing with agressive dogs...there are several reminder clips in that video on things to ensure the correct pack order in the family. So I'm working reestablishing pack order.

Also, (my fault) I never got him to be fully obedient with level 10 distractions which this was. Dog was fine with level 5 distractions, but when someone spooks you out of nowhere, and I was spooked, he took it upon himself to take over. He would not do a down or recall. So we are training him to be able to do a a down/stay and recall in a level 10 distraction. Interestingly enough, the only thing that is really level 10 for him is when someone comes out of nowhere on the property. Off property, he behaves perfectly. If he is not spooked on property, he'll bark but not bite.

So finally, I have to do some desensitization by having more people come over to the house and give him treats. I do not want to do that until I get him through training and he is more obedient.

I do have a trainer who is particularly good in this area.


The worst part about the situation (which is my fault for not having the dog more obedient), is that the whole neighborhood has stigmatized me and the dog. I feel terrible about that. All I can do now is 1) be grateful it wasn't worse and 2) resolve the issue as stated above.





onyx'girl said:


> I hope the OP returns with an update, how did it go with the behaviorist?
> 
> I agree with Cliff and Hunter, the dog did what GSD's are bred to do.
> 
> I don't really see the need to have a behaviorist evaluation for understanding that.


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## Neko (Dec 13, 2012)

So happy to hear from you! and love the plan. 

Sorry about the neighborhood =/


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree with Boomer 11. In the working world Sch, etc. a protective bite is a good thing, but not in the real world., where people and kids are around., also only dogs that have stable natures are trained for this. sure a first impule from a gsd with a stranger in the yard would be to protect, but, i would not want my dog making his own decisions without looking to me first. this is a disaster waiting to happen.

also don't bet that if it was fear a dog would run and hide, there are many definitions of fear, and i have seen plenty of fear agressive dogs coming forward to get the percieved threat before "it gets them".

i would definitely be getting an eval and doing some good training. and working on Impulse control and looking to you before acting. we can't control what happens in the real world, people showing up on our properties or things happening in other places, but we can train our dogs well to be obedient and look to us for leadership. unless a dog is a purposely trained protection dog, i don';t think your dogs action was a good one, because its a huge liability in everyday life.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the fence may keep the dog in but it doesn't keep anything out.



Deno said:


> This was all human error. As for containment, an invisible fence works great.
> Again, the dog was not at fault.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

build him a kennel. clear an area and fence it in.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

fencing is a safe solution, but there still needs to be some major training for when the dog is loose on the property.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your dog did good, your subsequent eval showed no FA or temperament issues....not surprised. I would like to know what the definition of guardian is in the standard? Never hurts for good obedience....you notice in my post I called the dog off....good obedience! But the dog absolutely did what this breed SHOULD do in THAT situation.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, the dog did good by standard, But, without a call off command it is Not good. Not the dogs fault in essence, but now that the owner knows what the dog will do in this situation training is a must, because even if someone is on your property and your dog bites them it is a liability. it all comes down to a responsible owner knowing their dog and training accordingly.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Didn't read all the replies...

But I would buy him a medal for a job well done.
He protected you and your home.

Next time, tell your friend to ring the doorbell.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

AlexWayne said:


> where my home is, in the woods, it is almost impossible to put up a fence the terrain is rough and it is heavily wooded. I could keep him on the deck. Or muzzled when he is on our property.
> 
> I'm just really shook up about it.



You are shook up that your dog protected you from something that scared you? you serious? why did you get a german shepherd? you should have got another breed that are not bred for protection if you were not expecting to be protected. 

Maybe find a home for your dog who actually needs protecting? idk the whole thing is just a bit silly. WHo would sneak up on a german shepherd?


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## kelseycub (Aug 1, 2013)

Put up beware of dog signs around your property.


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## Birdwatcher (Aug 31, 2013)

Now that the issue is resolved, a relevant story....

When I was thirteen I had a paper route (remember those?), one of the customers was a German guy, picket-fenced yard, big GSD, "Beware of the Dog" signs up. The few occasions I saw the dog it was playing the role, barking agressively at me from behind the fence.

He always put the money every week in a box attached to the outside of the gate. One day, no money. No dog either so I rattled the gate loudly a few times. Still no dog.

Heart poundng I opened the gate, walked fearfully up the walk, climbed the steps to his porch and knocked on the front door.

In one of those moments frozen in time the dog comes running around from the back and sees me at the door. At that point I am absolutely frozen motionless in fright.

The dog walked up the steps, put its paws on my shoulders, and licked my face 

Just then it hears a command or something from in back, and runs off around the back of the house again, shortly thereafter the guy answered the door and paid for the newspaper delivery.

I never did have to walk up that walk again, and I wouldn't have either 

Birdwatcher


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## Ellie_A (Sep 3, 2013)

I was told by a law professor at university that the "beware of dog" signs make a person more liable (in the US). In essence it is like admitting that you own a dangerous dog and your awareness of it makes you more liable. I don't know for sure that this is correct but I would strongly recommend looking into it before posting signs like that.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ellie_A said:


> I was told by a law professor at university that the "beware of dog" signs make a person more liable (in the US). In essence it is like admitting that you own a dangerous dog and your awareness of it makes you more liable. I don't know for sure that this is correct but I would strongly recommend looking into it before posting signs like that.


I think that depends on the state.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i can guarentee if i let my dogs run down and bite people coming on my property thinking they were doing their job, they would be taken away and i would be totally liable. maybe its different in other states i dunno.........

you just can't have these dogs and let them do whats instinctual, they need rules and training, otherwise in the real world your going to have a whole lot of trouble. its our job as owners to keep them safe and be responsible.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I agree debbie I would NEVER leave a gsd just open like that, but he lived so out in the boonies 10 acres and he was with his dog. You would think people would not be foolish enough to sneak up behind his house? that is what roobers do. I wonder what the persons intensions were? why not use the front door? I see people here keeping their dogs free but they bark and dont bite anyone.


If you do have a gsd I think its best to have a fence but still having t hat much land you would think someone can have privacy and not have to worry about being snuck up on.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

honestly, with my neighbors the dog would be the least of your worries. If you come through the woods and around the corner, you're likely to have a shotgun in your face. Visitors come down the driveway, not through the woods.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have just an acre. Only part of it is fenced. I do take them out in the front yard to load them up or even to run and play in the larger open area. And I do not put leashes on them, not unless someone is in heat. So if someone were to walk into me around the corner of my house as we were out there, well, I think my dog just might do something that wouldn't feel to good to the trespasser. 

And I wouldn't hold it against the dog if that were to happen, and I would hope that anyone who knows me well enough to trapse over my lawn wouldn't hold it against me or my dog. 

Frankly, I simply wouldn't worry about this one incident. I would think that learning has taken place where it was required -- the neighbor who came over the property rather than up the drive.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

an unfortunate incident for sure. but as we all know, none of us can predict what is going to happen from one minute to the next with other people and things in this world. all we can do is train and be as aware as we can of our surroundings. things like this happen all the time i am sure. i am also sure that most of us responsible gsd owners are always right there with our dogs and do not let them run around like loose cannons to react on their own free will. i have had similar incidences myself in the past so can understand how it can happen. and its made me even more careful about my dogs being outside loose etc. it could happen not just with people but with strange dogs entering the yard, critters etc. although at least they can't sue.........


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Definitely with Boomer and Selzer on this one. I don't know about Maryland but in North Carolina a dog isn't even supposed to be off leash on your own property unless behind a fence. 

Beware of dog signs don't resolve a person of legal responsibility over the actions of their pet on their property. They might prevent an attack and thus aren't a bad idea, but this won't cover your ass in court, at least not in this state and probably not in most others.

I'm pretty sure most states have a one free bite rule. If this is the case you won't be legally under obligation to put a dog down that hasn't been deemed a potentially dangerous dog, but if animal control around here had that bite reported it would have been deemed potentially dangerous.

That said OP did the right and responsible thing, so hats off there. Your dog took things too far, but the intention sounds like it was noble.

I can also empathize with the people who want to put the blame on the neighbor, because in the animal world you don't sneak up on something with sharp teeth. Animal law won't save you in court though, and by the sounds of things the neighbor was a good guy for letting it go when he was well within his rights to take defensive or legal action. It isn't unreasonable to be able to drop in on a neighbor without having to fear being attacked by a dog.


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## Manny6575 (Sep 30, 2012)

Im just a pet owner but in my opinion I think the dog overreacted. I think the dog should have stood its ground and gave a threatening bark. The dog should look to you for what to do next. If you were not there and the dog bit then I would think it did what it was supposed to do, however he should be restrained when you are not there.

No way do I think being pts is needed though! He needs to be controlled by a fence or chain. Sorry but you cant have this type of dog just free to run around.

I had something similar happen and Im also in Maryland. I only have 1 acre and only the backyard is fenced in. Manny spends a lot of time free by himself in the backyard when we are home. If we are not home then he is in the house. He is very territorial and would bite anyone who goes into the fence or house without me there. We have 3 gates on our fence and a beware of dog sign on each. Our driveway comes up to the side of our house and right up to the fence. There is a door to the house there and everyone goes to that door. The fence is 5' away and everyone is met by a barking GSD. I had a lady go up to the fence right next to the beware of dog sign and stick her finger in !! She pulled back a shredded finger!!!

Lucky for me she admitted her fault for sticking her finger in and nothing happened. Now I don't know the law but in Maryland I wouldn't be surprised if I could be found at fault. This states laws are crazy!

Same thing if we are not there and you come into the house. He will attack and bite. This is what I wanted in a dog and why I got a GSD.

If Im home and let you into the house or backyard Manny will run and find a ball for you to throw for him. He wont even bark just drive you crazy to play with him.

If Im in the backyard and someone comes to the fence Manny will start barking. He just doesn't charge the fence like he would if Im not out there. He lets me decide what the response should be. If I got scared and ran in the house he would probably follow me in. If I told him to attack he would look at me confused cause I didn't teach him do do that.

All Im trying to say is that you will get sued and lose if he bites the right person. Im not even sure that with my fence and signs that I wouldn't lose a suit either.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Couple of things. 

Liability sometimes turns into urban legends. We hear about a court case somewhere where a person got bit by a dog while trespassing and the dog owner was sued and lost, then it makes the rounds with details and facts being lost along the way and we think it's a country wide precedent. We don't hear about the cases where the person who was bit and sued did not win. IMHO I think we tend to freak out about liability issues too much. It's sort of like the legal boogey man.

Secondly, property rights. I'm getting tired of this idea that someone can traipse onto my property, step on nail, fall in my pool or get bit by my dog and all of sudden I'm 100% responsible? Time for that baloney to stop, else why even have private property?

Time to push back folks, it's bad enough we have to idiot proof the world, we shouldn't have to idiot proof our backyards too. Just sayin'....


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## Manny6575 (Sep 30, 2012)

I agree with everything you said!


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## Manny6575 (Sep 30, 2012)

*Trespass*

A dog owner is not liable when his dog bites a trespasser, whether the trespass is intentional or inadvertent. Bramble v. Thompson, 264 Md. 518 (1972).


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