# Question on supplements



## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

OK, so I am looking at the BARF Diet supplement to add to the raw diet I am switching Zappa to. Please let me know what you guys think. Also, do I need to add any digestive enzymes? One site I looked at said yes but I don't know.

http://www.barfworld.com/cgi-bin/product.cgi?category=33


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I feed fresh(frozen) raw green tripe for natural probiotic and digestive enzymes. 
http://www.aplaceforpaws.com 
http://www.greentripe.com

The product link has way too many ingredients in it for my liking. Onyx has allergy sensitivity and I wouldn't know what was causing it if I fed that to her. I am sure it is fine, but if you are dealing with allergies, then I would pass on it.
Though the green tripe has who knows what the cow ate, too!


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## AK GSD (Feb 27, 2008)

I do not have experience with the supplement you are looking into but we give our pups Hokamix with premade raw. 

http://www.naturmix.com/pages/products/hokamix.html

http://www.hokamix.com/


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm with Jane. That product has a lot of ingredients. If you're only planning to give your dog meat, and then give the supplement (and assuming your dog can tolerate it), then that's ok, I guess. But for me, the reason that I feed raw is to feed actual food -- not commercial *manufactured* products. All those dehydrated veggies? I feel like it's counterproductive to the point of a raw diet -- to feed fresh "real" food.

I don't feed enzymes... my feeling is that good quality raw food has plenty of enzymes. I wouldn't supplement unless my dog had a specific veterinary need for it (like EPI). 

I give human grade probiotics; for a supplement I give Halo Pets Daily Greens: http://shop.halopets.com/Pet-Supplements/VitaGlo-Daily-Greens

I like this product because I don't normally keep things like rose hips, kelp and alfalfa leaf around, but they're good for my dogs to have in small doses. The Daily Greens aren't very potent per tablet (a 50 lb dog can take up to a 3-6 tablets a day). So you really can give as many as you think your dog needs. 

I asked Halo Pets specifically about the raisin listed in the ingredients, and they told me that they include a bit of raisin because it's such a powerful antioxidant. All told, there's less than one raisin in an entire bottle of Daily Greens -- not enough to be worried about, as far as I'm concerned (nor as far as my holistic vet is concerned). 

The reason that I supplement is to fill holes that I think my diet doesn't provide. I use veggies, fruit and kitchen herbs to provide my dogs nearly all of their nutritional needs. I try to avoid synthetic supplements if at all possible. 

Kendra, I think that for you, it may help for you to decide what direction you want to go in. Do you intend to feed veggies? If so, which ones and how regularly? If you're just giving them as treats now and then, then you may want to choose a supplement that's more complete (a multivitamin given daily). If you're planning to feed a diet that provides a lot of variety, then you may find you only need to supplement a few specific things (and/or possibly a multivitamin given less frequently). 

For example, many owners supplement fish oil, but if you're someone who feeds fish really regularly, then you probably don't even need to give that. (And you may not want to.) 

It's hard for anyone to suggest a supplement that will be appropriate for your dogs without knowing what you're feeding. I'm not saying that the Halo Pets supplement that I mentioned above is a good or bad thing for your dog because I'm not sure what you're feeding at this point -- simply, it's something else to consider.

Ideally, we want to provide a *balance* of nutrients, not too few, but not too many either. 

What you feed affects how (how much, how often, and even IF) you supplement.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I do plan on adding in veggies. I am trying to set it up where I get a 3 day supply of food done and bagged (one bag for the meat, one for the veggies). My biggest thing is making sure he gets everything he needs. I am very new to the raw feeding and I have been hesitant to try because of Zappa's GI issues. However, when testing him with raw, he does great with chicken and beef but he cannot have commercial foods with those meats. I don't keep alfalfa around either (I don't even know where to get it). He does get a daily dose of fish oil/vit e/vit c as well as glucosamine suppliments. When reading raw feeding websites, it talks about ensuring you do the right amont of calcium due to bones having too much phosphorus. I want to do what's best for Zappa so I want to make sure he gets the right mixture.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Bone has the ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio already. It's about 1.4 parts calcium to 1.0 parts phosphorus. 

So we set that as the perfect starting point and work from there. 

What we don't want to do is add too much MM, which is essentially all phosphorous, and skew the ratio too much toward phosophorous. Fortunately, MM is about 80% water. That's why the percentages that we usually see of approx 50% each RMB to MM are good guidelines to start with. Each dog and his GI tract will dictate whether we go up or down a bit from there.

Also, we need to be careful that we don't inadvertently add "extras" that skew the ratio. Adding calcium for its own sake has to be done very carefully. Plus, many foods that people think of as being calcium sources -- like cottage cheese -- are actually a lot higher in phosphorus than they are in calcium.

The problem with too much phosphorous is that it keeps calcium from being absorbed. With an older dog, this is something that can be more of an issue, as we start to worry about such things as renal health. (It can also promote overall growth that's too fast, but that's a secondary concern). Too much calcium can cause bone growth that is too much too soon. Zappa is old enough that bone growth isn't a big concern, but we don't want to load him up with calcium for its own sake either. 

So, we want to keep these two vital minerals in balance. Best way to do that is to ensure that we're feeding bone and meat in *roughly* equal amounts-- again, depending on what your dog's body needs (mine needs more RMB than the commonly cited "recipe" suggests). Dogs store nutrients, so if you're off by a bit here or there, it's not going to be catastrophic. You just need to be close. Also, if you vary your protein sources (and your bone sources -- drumsticks one week, necks the next and backs a couple weeks from now, and maybe give him a recreation bone now and then), you should be fine. 

If you read all the bags of premium kibble out there, you'll see that the calcium/phosphorous ratios range from about 1:1.2 to 1:2.2 (and some are even higher). Assuming all of these are safe healthy foods, then you can see that you have a decent range to work with. 

We also want to make sure that our pups are getting plenty of vitamin D, so that the calcium is getting absorbed...shouldn't be a problem for you down there in Texas.









Does that help clarify it a bit? 

BTW, I started feeding raw to my last GSD who had terrible GI issues. It solved all of his problems. Neither of my GSD boys can tolerate commercial foods, but thrive on raw. You may find this is exactly what you're looking for.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Vitamin D is definately no problem down here, lol. He should have a store for the remainder of his life.
Thank you. It does clarify quite a bit for me. It's a big jump going from commercial to raw so I'm nervous. He loves it though. Goes straight to his bowl and clears it out.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

I supplement based on what the diet lacks, as was mentioned previous. What the diet lacks or doesn't lack depends on what and how much you feed. To learn/see this I made a spreadsheet that compares the needed nutrients to the diet. I tweak and supplement the difference. It's really the only way to actually know if that's what your wanting.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428679&page=10#Post428679


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

That's a great write-up Natalie! (And happy birthday!) 

Kendra, building upon Natalie's post, she uses supplements for manganese, magnesium, copper and zinc, for example. I feed my dogs organic maple syrup, which is loaded with all of these. (My dogs don't eat beef, but they eat bison which has a lot of zinc).

Maple syrup: http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/sweets/5602/2

Yes, I allow for those extra calories. My kids are extremely active; otherwise, feeding a source of virtually pure sugar would be questionable. 

Her dogs eat white potato. My dogs don't eat any potato, but the syrup gives my dogs some potassium. I also give them some evaporated milk, which is loaded with potassium -- and vitamin D, which we desperately need up here in WA! 

I just wanted to walk you through a mini comparison so you can see clearly how what your dog eats really affects how you supplement. Natalie and I have similar nutritional goals, but our dogs don't have diets that are all that similar. We take different paths but end up at the same goals.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

I went ahead and ordered the Honest Kitchen "Preference" as an additive for Zappa's raw. These are the ingredients:

Alfalfa, sweet potatoes, cabbage, celery, apples, spinach, organic kelp, coconut, bananas, zucchini, and honey.
http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/products/preference.shtml

I am also waiting for a call back from his vet who came in today (yay!). I get Zappa's fish oil/vit e/vit c as a prescription mix. I am waiting for him to call back to see about doing a similar thing for the vitamins/minerals to add. I really like the pump bottle they use. It makes it easier for me to measure.

I need to find a good butcher here. I have been able to get plenty of chicken/giblets/beef/liver but I want to possibly get some other things like beef heart. There is a butcher here that specializes in exotic meats like bison, ostrich, venison and others. 

I know I can do liver, heart, and brain, but what other organs can I add in? I have also read that if I give organ meats daily, to make sure it is about 10% of his food.

One other question...what is the approximate amount he should get a day? Zappa is right at 78lbs.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

http://www.exoticmeatsandmore.com/

This is the place down the road from where I live.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

2 - 3% of his ideal weight. Somewhere around 1.5 pounds per day. i would start with chicken backs for a week then alternate the evening meal with chicken leg quarters the second week. 1 quarter is approx. 1 pound.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks. I happened to get an awesome deal on chicken backs and chicken leg quarters. 10lb bags for $2.00. Thank God for deef freezers, LOL.


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