# Registration...for the sake of discussion.



## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Ok I was talking about my unpapered pup on another forum and they went off the deep end then finally asked well why not just spay her to get her reg WITH AKC or UKC so I could work her toward a title or championship?

Now lets say I spay her and I achieve said award. now what? all I see when stuff like that happens are horses like Scamper (one of the top barrel horses) and Gem Twist (world renowned stadium jumper). Im using horses here because im not familliar with dogs, but both were gelded (nuetered) when young or because they were unable to get papers (like Scamper) then turn out to be outstanding in some field then you miss a genetic chance to improve on a breed. *not that its my puppy who is gonna be that, yeah right im not that nieve, lol.* I needed to state that so no one would get the wrong impression.

my point and stance is more principle than anything. I feel a paper should not judge an animal on their worth. I think through competing, breeding (linage), testing and other things should qulify them as acceptable breeding animals, rather than a single piece of paper as Ive seen MANY MANY poor quality AKC dogs.

people talk about the good of the breed. lets say by chance this dog here... (I picked him mostly randomly as an already somewhat achieved show dog with obvious future potential)
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/germ.../5/585641.html











was sold as a pup and the papers get lost by said owner or the owner dies, dog is sold rehomed but the papers dont go with but liniage is still known.

now (this dog is stunning) is that dog now just another 'should be nuetered male'? an when you do show him in sch and in conformation and he blows people and dogs out of the water, what now? you just lost a genetic link to something that could of improved a breed all for a 10 cent piece of paper to say "its registered". Ive seen some amazing registered horses gelded as foals then go on to be extravigant examples of the breed, years of hard breeding, then lost, because some dummy couldnt be patient enough or were too money hungry to actually have the betterment of the breed in mind, as 'breeders' claim. most just hang on the dollar signs it gains when you geld a horse.

there is not as much hazard with dogs as stud dogs, unless they have a poor temperment, arent dangerous as a poorly raised stallion can be. So what would it cost to wait 2 years until the dog is mature and you can see its potential. I can understand nuetering the familly pet. Me, Im not a breeder of dogs, nor will I ever be. I DO know horses though. I know my stallion is a fine example of his breed and wont breed until he has proven through mind and ability before being bred.

what would happen if many of the top producing studs both dogs and horses werent there because someone simply lost its papers or gelded it. 

Im simply standing on principle. Simply so every time I say my dog is not spayed and someone asks why I can tell them how I feel about papers and such. Also if the worst thing about my dog is her coat... Im glad for it.

so flame away. this is my opinion, everyone has one as much as I'd like to show akc, I cant because of a 10 cent piece of paper so we will never know if my pup is good enough at tracking or obediance or SCH to get titled. That dont bother me, she's my buddy at the end of the day. Though I would never breed an unpapererd animal (dog or horse, heck even my rabbits were papered), I feel the weight placed on Registration papers is much too heavy. I believe that if the animal has proven its self to be great in every way conformation, mind, health, linage and ability. why should the lack of a piece of paper be manditory for breeding rights? to say its registered and show in so and so's shows? One day I'd like to see registries done away with completely, some how, as all it is a is a breeding ground for politics and very often can ruin a breed (im watching it happen every day in horses where structure is being comprimised for fashion and trends. I'd like to dream that one day a piece of paper printed on your every day printer and a DNA test verifying the dog's linage will be enough. how ever that will never happen as people are untrustworthy and money hungry there is rarely such thing as for the good of the breed these days. all of it is done for the dollar signs and the recignition, that you for a moment had a better dog than joe blow, because never in a million years will I, 'ms joe blow' be able to afford or pay $1500 to $3000 for a pup out of world class lines despite the fact I would provide a good home and a great life for my dog.

you know why back yard dogs sell? price. if someone with quality titled dogs sold their pups for $600-$800 It would literally SQUASH out the lower quality animals because you can SEE these animals are quality, the pups are just as cute and fluffy and their life spans will be longer their health will be better and they are less likely to go crazy one day and bite their owner in the face! 

I mean in breeding conformation and temperment alone I have people lined up to breed to my stallion because Ive already set his stud fee (though he wont be covering mares yet) its only a 1/4 of the competition and Im literally stealing the local BYB's buisness with a stud fee the same as theirs. the difference? I do screen mares so not just any mare will be bred since if my stud has to have good temperment breeding and conformation so should the mare. Ive heard one BYB gelded her stallion due to 'the economy'. if this works so well with horses...couldnt it also atleast partially work for dogs?



ok im done ranting. sorry :blush::crazy:

but I thought it might be an interesting conversation piece though.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

" I believe that if the animal has proven its self to be great in every way conformation, mind, health, linage and ability. why should the lack of a piece of paper be manditory for breeding rights?"

But linage *isn't * proven. That is what papers do.
I am not for or against your ideas but you state a dog proven to be great including linage. 

As for the scenario with death, or other problems with an otherwise registrable dog, I believe I read something where you can apply through the AKC and get papers. I will see if I can find it. 

The problem with pricing is that it is much cheaper to produce a dog that is not proven than it is to breed a proven one. It is not just limited to papers, that includes proven ability/conformation and health. 
Good breeders CAN'T compete.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

I do disagree that breeders offering dog's at $600-$800 will squash BYBs. I can get a non-registered GSD for much less than that, I can even get one with papers for leas than that. Many people have no idea about health clearances, or that temperament is inherited. All they see is that they don't plan to compete in Schutzhund or showing so why bother buying a dog from a breeder who does and why pay more?
Another common thought is why pay more for a dog with papers if I don't plan to show. 
So there will always be people who will simply choose the "deal" and go with the cheaper dog even if a quality dog is available at an affordable price.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

novarobin said:


> " I believe that if the animal has proven its self to be great in every way conformation, mind, health, linage and ability. why should the lack of a piece of paper be manditory for breeding rights?"
> 
> But linage *isn't *proven. That is what papers do.
> I am not for or against your ideas but you state a dog proven to be great including linage.
> ...


with the rate of genetics these days you can prove liniage. if you start say with 2 AKC dogs and you breed them have both tested for genetics copy that and put it into a pup's folder for its new owner so that the folder would contain genetic info on both parents one DNA test by the new owner to prove its true then they breed to another dog who has parent verified and then you take their genetic info and put it in their pup's file. it probably wouldnt cost more than any lifetime of paying fees to a registration place.

I know very well if someone put their mind to it money wise it can be done. people do it all the time in the horse world and there we are talking about an animal that eats at minimum 1200 dollars a year. Infact one day I plan to stand my stud i will be asking the same as the competition however half my fee would simply go to rescuing orther animals, in this case horses so that with every life brought into the world I can help make one better.

now the great thing about dogs is that more than one offspring is born at a time. so in a litter of 8 pups at 600 each thats 4800 dollars for one litter you're telling me to feed care and regular vet visits are even over 2000 dollars? and you couldnt even get some accomplishments achieved on 2,000 dollars? now if you own 3 bitches say its 3,000 per bitch to get her titled, lets say its $5,000 total to raise the dog train it and get it titled just once. so thats a total of 20,000 dollars for one stud and 3 bitches. now I sell these pups for 600 each and in each litter is say 6 pups. thats 7200 to 9600 for 2 litters for the year (as that accounts for giving each bitch atleast on heat cycle to rest and relax) and we all know there are usually more pups than 6. within 3 1/2 (at 600 a pup) to 2 1/2 years (at 800 a pup) you have paid the dog's "debt" and you are making money, but wait, its not about money its about the good of the breed I thought  

We all know any money we all make goes back into the dogs because thats what we enjoy so in the end if you charge 3,000 for a pup or 800 money is made and that is the goal.

and yes you can get papers by nuetering the dog.

again just my opinion is all


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Sorry for another reply but you said alot in one post and my mind is working slow (end of 12 hour backshift) 
This question is genuine - are we really losing a great deal of quality breeding dogs because of these paper issues? 
I know there are some undoubtedly. We had an unregistered GSD K9 here that was by far the best K9 we had and one of my personal favorite examples of the breed. 
But considering only a fraction of dogs are even breedworthy and even fewer are truly impacting the breed, I wonder how much of an impact this is.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

well I took in a dog that was high quality as in, someone paid 1500 for the dog at one point (see him under the conformation critique as "german bred male: Jack) I got him for $100. comes from proven lines, good temperments, conformation and hips. If the market was flooded with GOOD well bred dogs like this. where conformation and temperment were actually popular where would the back yard dog stand? I mean I found Jack on craigslist. Ive actually found quite a few well bred nice quality not outstanding but nice level headed well conformed animals, good DOGs. Dogs I would trust from now til forever that the dog isnt going to be a fruit loop or isnt PRONE to HD. 

see and there again with the unregistered dog if all dogs were essentially 'unregistered' what really would set them apart other than some good tactful advertising and DNA proving the dogs are sound mind body and soul so to speak.





novarobin said:


> I do disagree that breeders offering dog's at $600-$800 will squash BYBs. I can get a non-registered GSD for much less than that, I can even get one with papers for leas than that. Many people have no idea about health clearances, or that temperament is inherited. All they see is that they don't plan to compete in Schutzhund or showing so why bother buying a dog from a breeder who does and why pay more?
> Another common thought is why pay more for a dog with papers if I don't plan to show.
> So there will always be people who will simply choose the "deal" and go with the cheaper dog even if a quality dog is available at an affordable price.


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Delilah's_Human said:


> with the rate of genetics these days you can prove liniage. if you start say with 2 AKC dogs and you breed them have both tested for genetics copy that and put it into a pup's folder for its new owner so that the folder would contain genetic info on both parents one DNA test by the new owner to prove its true then they breed to another dog who has parent verified and then you take their genetic info and put it in their pup's file. it probably wouldnt cost more than any lifetime of paying fees to a registration place.


Not sure if I am tired but I am not sure I understand this. 

As for the cost of breeding, I am not a breeder so I will leave that for those who do to address. I still maintain a good breeder has a much higher overhead than a BYB. 
But in my second post I was trying to imply that if good breeders dropped their price, BY s can always drop theirs lower.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

novarobin said:


> Sorry for another reply but you said alot in one post and my mind is working slow (end of 12 hour backshift)
> This question is genuine - are we really losing a great deal of quality breeding dogs because of these paper issues?
> I know there are some undoubtedly. We had an unregistered GSD K9 here that was by far the best K9 we had and one of my personal favorite examples of the breed.
> But considering only a fraction of dogs are even breedworthy and even fewer are truly impacting the breed, I wonder how much of an impact this is.


no worries this is an adult discussion slowness is almost required otherwise we are simply teenagers again, hormonal and undependable lol.

I havent a clue I can only spek for one dogs potential. I look at just a handful of horses and maybe 2 are really something amazing but those two horses impact 100's of horses lives, without them there would be little quality. with dogs one sire could put thousands of dogs out there so to ask if one dog could make a difference I believe so. now take your K9 you mentioned. imagine he sired just one litter of pups and 1/2 that liter got his talent lets say thats 4 dogs total. so then they too are bred to an exceptional dogs each producing only ONE litter of 6 pups each. so we're already up to 24 dogs that one dog has effected. for all any one could know that dog might of been even better than his unregistered status allowed, however that we will never know.

EVERY dog impacts the breed. when people see my german shepherd walking quietly next to me down the street and they say wow thats a magnificent dog and they stop me and ask questions and I tell them to find a relilable breeder to speak to to help them find the perfect dog suited for them only for the person to say hey I think I want a german shepherd. My little mutt pup (heh her nick name as of late) just impacted the german shepherd breed not the AKC german Shepherds or the UKC or the CKC german shepherd but THE German shepherd breed as a whole. I think at the root of all things, papers are causing the breed more problems than anything they divide the breed into 'grade' and registered its like saying private school or public school.


there are always exceptions but I just dont see them so often any more be it the horse world, dog world, people world or COW world.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

novarobin said:


> Not sure if I am tired but I am not sure I understand this.
> 
> As for the cost of breeding, I am not a breeder so I will leave that for those who do to address. I still maintain a good breeder has a much higher overhead than a BYB.
> But in my second post I was trying to imply that if good breeders dropped their price, BY s can always drop theirs lower.


they kinna do this already in the horse world. each parent is DNA'd so instead of paying AKC copy and provide each new owner with a copy of their tests so then they tack their pup in have it dna'd when they then breed their two dogs togther you provide the new owners the parent's dna and so effectively creating a prove liniage held together by DNA PROOF. no registration just DNA.

yes they can do that but Ive got 5 dollars in my pocket am I going to buy the chesse curls or the cheetos. cheetos used to be $4, the cheese curls $2 Oh but now cheetos dropped their price to $2 hmmm and no cheese curls are 50 cent? I like cheetos better and they are satisfactory gaurenteed and you say they are made of real cheese? Im walking out of the store with Cheetos. I hope that made sence other wise Im going to need a better euphimisim.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Delilah's_Human said:


> there is not as much hazard with dogs as stud dogs, unless they have a poor temperment, arent dangerous as a poorly raised stallion can be.


Strongly disagree with this. A poorly raised stallion doesn't have to be polite to grandma at Christmas. The chances of a small child running up to your stallion while you're out for a walk around the neighborhood are almost nil. You can stick a horse in the back forty and not have to worry about how it does with kids, old people, people who are afraid of horses, cats, people in wheelchairs, etc. 




Delilah's_Human said:


> never in a million years will I, 'ms joe blow' be able to afford or pay $1500 to $3000 for a pup out of world class lines despite the fact I would provide a good home and a great life for my dog.


Sure you can. If you have enough money to provide a great life for a dog (quality food, training classes, vet care, etc) you can simply put the money aside every month that you would be spending on the dog until you have the money to afford the dog. Shouldn't take more than a year.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

as for as I can see, the DNA situation you describe is unnecessary. In that instance, where the breeder has DNA taken to prove that the dogs are the parents are what a registration does - say the parents of this dog are Dog A and Dog B. 

What the DNA wouldn't say is that Dog B's grandfather wasn't a GSD, but instead the neighbor's GSD mix. So, even though you have a Pup is of "known" linage, the rest of the bloodline is still worthless. That is what papers prove - the entire pedigree. *this assumes that you go with the idea of allowing unpapered dogs to be registered* 

Also, not being registered with the AKC doesn't stop you from doing Schutzhund or tracking. A tracking or obedience title from the AKC itself sure, but you would still be able to prove that the dog is able to work. So, theoretically you could prove the dog an asset and breed. However, the value of the registration is also in the eyes of the purchaser - they believe that ANY registration is good - ContKC, UKC, AKC, CKC, they are all equal in the eyes of the general public.

The fact that your dog can work or is a fine specimen of the breed are actually not important to them. They see a well-trained dog and think "oh I want one" and assume that it will be a good pet. But if you say I did "A, B, and C to prove this dog is worthy. But the pups aren't registered" the brain shuts off.

ETA: or are you envisioning a situation where there is a giant database containing the DNA of every dog ever born. Then you run the DNA of an unknown dog and know exactly what the pedigree is?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

To the OP. Are you saying your dog isn't registered because you can't register it, or because you don't want to register it? Sorry, I don't know your back story.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Delilah's_Human said:


> Me, Im not a breeder of dogs, nor will I ever be. I DO know horses though. I know my stallion is a fine example of his breed and wont breed until he has proven through mind and ability before being bred.


You're kind of answering your own question with this statement. You consider your stallion to be a fine example of his breed, but will prove his breed worthiness before putting him to mares. As long as you plan on showing/competing him in some venue that provides the feedback of a objective third party (the judge), and using that success as proof of his breed worthiness, then you must be okay with the idea of proving a dog's breed worthiness through some form of successful competition. And most venues require some form of registration for the dog prior to showing up to compete. 

The difference between a horse and a dog is that an intact grade (unregistered/unknown breeding) horse can compete against all other horses (both registered and grade) in open horse shows and prove their ability. I can't think of any corresponding opportunity in the dog world. You would be laughed out of the parking lot if you showed up at an AKC event and wanted to show in the conformation ring with an unregistered black and white dog and asked to show with the GSD's because your dog has a gorgeous side gait. But you can certainly show up at a USDF (United States Dressage Federation) and compete on your grade stallion (providing you paid your class fees, etc). Comparing dogs to horses is like comparing apples to oranges. 

My gelding is a registered Arabian. His DNA is on file with the AHA, as is his dam and sire. My GSD Tanner also has DNA on file with his registry. DNA is a great way to prove beyond just a piece of paper that the animal in question is without a doubt the offspring of the animals listed. But it is the registries in question that maintain the DNA database, so even with the DNA you're still back to dealing with a registry anyway. I am sure you could have a vet pull a sample and have some lab run it, along with samples from the dam and sire, but what point would you be proving with that result? Yes, this grade bay mare is the offspring of these other two grade bay horses? What does that prove regarding breed worthiness?

I am such a bloodline wonk that I can't imagine not enjoying the research and study involved. I love knowing that my gelding's grand-dam is a Breyer model horse. I like pouring over Tanner's relatives on pedigree database.

Now, I am off to clean horse stalls in 12 degree weather!
Sheilah


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Strongly disagree with this. A poorly raised stallion doesn't have to be polite to grandma at Christmas. The chances of a small child running up to your stallion while you're out for a walk around the neighborhood are almost nil. You can stick a horse in the back forty and not have to worry about how it does with kids, old people, people who are afraid of horses, cats, people in wheelchairs, etc.
> 
> *but you are completely wrong sticking a horse in 'the back forty' by them self caused major pacing and soon your stallion is nothing but bones or do you think the neigbor kid is gonna listen when you put a sign up no tresspassing and when the kid is killed, then what? there is nothing more dangerous than a hormonal stallion. You have no idea how many times me and friends have found strangers at the fence line in the middle of no where or in the fenceline with the horses!*
> 
> ...


 
No, ok lemme rephrase IM not gonna spend 1500, 3000 that could just as easilly buy me a nice using horse.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

> so we will never know if my pup is good enough at tracking or obediance or SCH to get titled.


You will know. You will not have any letter and official certificates, that's all. But your dog's good manners will speak for him. 

I went to a tracking seminar with an AKC tracking judge. She rescues labs and tracks every one of them. She also lets beginners track with them so we can see what it's like to be behind an exceptional tracking dog. 

So, I asked her what titles her dogs have. She said she doesn't trial them because _It's just a piece of paper._

IMO, there are plenty of dogs out there being used for breeding. Nobody is going to notice a few less. Whether you neuter or not, it's your choice.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> as for as I can see, the DNA situation you describe is unnecessary. In that instance, where the breeder has DNA taken to prove that the dogs are the parents are what a registration does - say the parents of this dog are Dog A and Dog B.
> 
> What the DNA wouldn't say is that Dog B's grandfather wasn't a GSD, but instead the neighbor's GSD mix. So, even though you have a Pup is of "known" linage, the rest of the bloodline is still worthless. That is what papers prove - the entire pedigree. *this assumes that you go with the idea of allowing unpapered dogs to be registered*
> 
> ...


 
see thats the thing you would start with two AKC dogs and when you get 10 generations down the dogs all animals have been dna'd though a dna database would be neat in general. OR like in AQHA (Quarter Horse registry) when you pay for a breeding you get a stallion report both parents have been verified they then check the foal's dna to the parents. each horse is assigned a number. if by chance you have a grade foal you can contact AQHA (if the parents are suspected to be both QH) and you know who the parents are you can draw hair and get a dna test and they will verify if the horse is indeed of those parents. it would be neat now that I think of it to create a database much like to police use for criminals for finger prints with dogs adn horses where it would dna test a foal against other animals in the that base that or related. you would need to get a parental match to be eligable for registration.

I also really hate seeing people in general taken advantage of just so they can get papers on their dog. Like for instance the dog I had Jack, he was a 1500 dog only pet papers can be retrieved on him, what good will that do me if I want to show him obediance? I think the pet papers deal is over board and I think only breeding should be restricted with them. because every dog in the show ring whether it gets a couple 1st and 2nds its good for that to be known so if only a fraction of the pups is allowed to show as a stud owner that would damage your percentage of show dogs. trust me people in general are compedative. I know of a stallion owner who offers money back for showing his stallions foals. none of these homes were show homes and yet 85% of his foals have points and awards in one event or another. then he cant turn around andsay my stud has produced....its advertising. Im finding more and more that dog people in eneral dog breeders (not saying all because there are always good ones out there, I know the breeder that my sister is working with is an amazing example of what a breeder should be) have a stick up their butts and act like it too. some wont even offer full papers all pups are sold with pet papers I'm going to say this is likely because they dont want competition for breeding. This is just another of money hungry breeders influcing others to convince them they have the good of the dog in mind or the breed, because if all their pups they are breeding are only good for pets they shouldnt be breeding. the are BYBs hiding behind the mask of a 'good' breeder.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> To the OP. Are you saying your dog isn't registered because you can't register it, or because you don't want to register it? Sorry, I don't know your back story.


Unless I track down both her mother's papers which is likely a impossible thing to do now AND I was able to get full papers on her father then I COULD get my dog registered to show her AKC

Also I WONT simply spay her to get AKC papers, on principle.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

sit said:


> You're kind of answering your own question with this statement. You consider your stallion to be a fine example of his breed, but will prove his breed worthiness before putting him to mares. As long as you plan on showing/competing him in some venue that provides the feedback of a objective third party (the judge), and using that success as proof of his breed worthiness, then you must be okay with the idea of proving a dog's breed worthiness through some form of successful competition. And most venues require some form of registration for the dog prior to showing up to compete.
> 
> The difference between a horse and a dog is that an intact grade (unregistered/unknown breeding) horse can compete against all other horses (both registered and grade) in open horse shows and prove their ability. I can't think of any corresponding opportunity in the dog world. You would be laughed out of the parking lot if you showed up at an AKC event and wanted to show in the conformation ring with an unregistered black and white dog and asked to show with the GSD's because your dog has a gorgeous side gait. But you can certainly show up at a USDF (United States Dressage Federation) and compete on your grade stallion (providing you paid your class fees, etc). Comparing dogs to horses is like comparing apples to oranges.
> 
> ...


 
ok see thats the thing with this dna'ing you would have the proof front to back that each parent grand parent an so on is infact related, im just really tired of the politics in the registries. thats my real point in the whole thing breeders screwing people over, the registry screwing people over and more.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

BlackPuppy said:


> You will know. You will not have any letter and official certificates, that's all. But your dog's good manners will speak for him.
> 
> I went to a tracking seminar with an AKC tracking judge. She rescues labs and tracks every one of them. She also lets beginners track with them so we can see what it's like to be behind an exceptional tracking dog.
> 
> ...


yes it is my choice but why should registries and breeders force my hand into nuetering my dog so I can get papers I was essentially scammed out of in a round about way. so I can show where I want to show. if there were more open shows I wouldnt have a word to say, not in the least. though I still think its wrong not that I wanna breed but I want to have the OPTION to decide that.

now I do need to ask, if those amazing untitled dogs if they were not registered (purebred and all that jazz but no paper saying registration) and not titled what would people say even though those dogs are well trained and have great talent?


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm confused here. Where in AKC does it state you have to spay/neuter a dog in order to get his or her papers? I know if you want to get an AKC PUP/ILP number you do, or is this what you're talking about when you're referring to "papers"?


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

So, you dont want to spay your dog. And she is not registered. And you want to be able to compete in AKC events. But you cant until she is spayed. That is what I am getting from your post.
And you know she is purebred, so if DNAing was available, you could register her and enter her in AKC events. 

Just in case others dont know, the AKC PAL/ILP program requires you spay/neuter in order to be in the program. I dont know what the Canadian Kennel Clubs stance is on that.
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ilpform.pdf

As far as the horse industry goes, I had a TWH mare, purebred, registered. They started a grandfathering in clause with the registry. She was moved from a couple different owners during that time. By the time I got her, it was too late to get her grandfathered in. She was born a TWH, and had papers to prove it. Now they say she is no longer a TWH. Does that make sense? Not to me. Couldnt register any offspring as a TWH. Got a gorgeous SSH filly out of her. 

And back to breeding dogs. I was adding up what I have spent so far on producing the litter of pups my female is carrying right now. Almost $1,500. Not including her food, I would be incurring that expense whether she is pregnant or not. Now she is only 30 days in. I have another 30 days of pregnancy, and then 8 wks of puppies. Assuming all pups are sold by the time they turn 8 wks, or are going to their new owners and not staying a bit longer. I did an ultrasound and carrying at least six pups. I know of breeders who have spent money trying to get a litter and then the bitch doesnt get pregnant. You are out all that money. Some bitches only have one or two pups. Again, all the expenses are still there. You will only get top dollar for your pups(from knowledgeable buyers), if she is titled, has hip/elbows done. And dont forget the stud fee. That is sometimes based on his accomplishments as well, and can be pricey.

I like this discussion


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not know much about horses. If someone sees your stud at a competition, whatever, and thinks their mare would complement him, and they want the foal to raise and train and ride in said competitions, if that be possible without papers, I say that is just fine. There is by and far only one foal to such a breeding, and the owner of the mare can make that decision about having a foal without papers. 

With a dog it IS a little different. If the point in breeding is maintaining the breed standard, or improving your lines, there is simply no point in breeding an unregistered dog. 

First off, there are so many registered dogs out there on the top of their fields. You cannot make the point that this dog is the best drug dog, the best herding dog, the best schutzhund competitor and should be bred. There are many other great herding dogs, schutzhund competitors, drug dogs, that have their papers. 

You had a scenario that I have heard literally dozens of times. Everyone with a dog without papers got him from somebody else, and the papers were lost or the breeder died. There are an awful lot of dead breeders out there producing puppies.

Maybe you got an awesome dog from awesome lines. But in the vast majority of the cases of a dog with out papers, it is because of unscrupulous breeding practices.

1. Good breeder sells dog on a limited registration to a liar who says they want a pet. The liar breeds their pets and sells the puppies without papers, saying the bitch's breeder died before she could sign the papers over.

2. Bad breeder sells dogs on a limited or full registration depending on how much money the buyer is willing to shell out. Bad buyer/breeder wannabe buys dog on limited registration thinking they don't need papers because they will just sell the puppies cheap.

3. Bad breeder breeds dogs but gets suspended by AKC. Pups are no longer registratable. 

4. Dog is found in pound and pulled. Pound requires spay neuter, but is not able to follow through. Dog looks purebred. 

Just because there is a pretty puppy or a smart puppy in a litter, does not mean that it will produce pretty puppies or smart puppies. The chances of producing an nice uniform litter go way up when you know what you got, and you know what you are breeding to. Without papers this is NOT possible. Sorry. Yes, the former owner can SAY the dog is the illegitimate son of a double world sieger, but unless he has the papers to back him, he can just as easily be a pound puppy, 7 parts GSD 1 part ?


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

dawnandjr said:


> So, you dont want to spay your dog. And she is not registered. And you want to be able to compete in AKC events. But you cant until she is spayed. That is what I am getting from your post.
> And you know she is purebred, so if DNAing was available, you could register her and enter her in AKC events.
> 
> _*Thats pretty much correct. *_
> ...


It is nice to have a good knowledgeable conversation without people flying off the handle.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> I do not know much about horses. If someone sees your stud at a competition, whatever, and thinks their mare would complement him, and they want the foal to raise and train and ride in said competitions, if that be possible without papers, I say that is just fine. There is by and far only one foal to such a breeding, and the owner of the mare can make that decision about having a foal without papers.
> 
> With a dog it IS a little different. If the point in breeding is maintaining the breed standard, or improving your lines, there is simply no point in breeding an unregistered dog.
> 
> ...


 
Thats the thing I know the lines of the father they are nice lines his only major flaw is his coat is long otherwise he is a smart intelligent healthy well bred dog. Im simply talking on principle and its simply wrong. either you breed because you enjoy it in which cased its a hobby and there is NEVER any breaking even with hobbies. OR (an this is the case usually) its a Job you enjoy in which case you arent breeding because of the breed but because the dogs being produced need to be able to compete in order to sell the pups for enough money to pay for costs and pay yours and your trainer's salary. THAT is a buisness not breeding for the good of the dog. you cant have it both ways. it cant be a hobby and be about money. its one or the other.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I may be a little confused here, I was reading some of your prior posts, from what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong:,,you bought Jack for 100 bucks from 'someone', he came from Jerland Kennels, they wouldn't give you papers on him, he had an "oops" litter with a female you had in the house, you've kept one of the puppies. You rehomed Jack because you couldn't 'show' him, and the female was going to be rehomed to? 

Now you'd like to show your female (puppy) but can't because of no reg papers and aren't going to spay her to get an ILP/Pal because of "principle".. 

Well all I can say is "principle" is going to severely limit what you'd like to do with this dog as it did with Jack. That's really to bad because both of these dogs could have high potential (from what you say), to title in obed/agility/herding/tracking/schutz? but because your unwilling to 'play by the rules' , (spay to get an ILP/Pal) you will never know their true potential. 

Your two dogs are a drop in the bucket and aren't going to make a big influence on the 'breed' if they had their papers. I don't mean that in a harsh way, but there are so many dogs out there, a few here and there aren't going to make much of a impact on the breed. 

If you are a person who likes to do things with your dogs, such as obed etc, your really going to miss out on the fun and feeling of accomplishment that showing dogs brings. But hey, if that isn't your thing, well then that's ok to


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I haven't read the entire thread, but you don't need any official registration papers or pedigrees to do Schutzhund, SDA, CPE, APDT, C-WAGS, etc, etc. Really, *only* the registries require you to have some form of their registration in order to compete in *their* events, and why shouldn't they? It's their registry, their rules, their registration. I see you oppose certain things "on principle" but why would a registry allow you to compete without registering your dog or being a member of their registry? Like I said you can compete in those organizations listed earlier but even with a mixed breed you generally need to becoming a member and/or "register" your dog in their venue. I wanted to do an SDA trial with my dog, so guess what I had to pay $25 to become a member of SDA before we could enter. 

There is absolutely no WAY I'd spay or neuter one of my dogs just based on trying to get AKC PAL papers. 

As for conformation, I guess to me it makes sense that only intact, registered dogs can compete, since it is supposedly an evaluation for breeding. Why would one consider breeding a dog whose pedigree was unknown?


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> I may be a little confused here, I was reading some of your prior posts, from what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong:,,you bought Jack for 100 bucks from 'someone', he came from Jerland Kennels, they wouldn't give you papers on him, he had an "oops" litter with a female you had in the house, you've kept one of the puppies. You rehomed Jack because you couldn't 'show' him, and the female was going to be rehomed to?
> 
> *(to clarify I wasnt even the cause of the litter they didnt just accidentally escape their kennels I was gone away for the week for a horse show and left specific instructions they werent to be let out at the same time but the 'person' watching the animals was trying to 'save' time and turned them out in the yard together. The female was due to go to her new home when I got back) I also rehomed Jack for several reasons not just because I couldnt show him. Like the fact I didnt really 'click' with him personality wise even though he was a great dog, intelligent and a good working dog he would do anything I asked him. the not able to show him deal was like the straw that broke the camels back and I was searching for a new home for him when the predicament happened. The female that was there was already ready to be placed I had rescued her a month before as the lady didnt want her anymore and she was chasing down her cats. She's since quit but was rehomed into a home without cats none the less, just incase.*
> 
> ...


but again this is just an adult discussion and these are just my opinions they arent solid facts nor am I going to say yeah im right no matter what or Im wrong yeah an its ok to take away show rights from an otherwise purebred, well bred dog. Its wrong from my point of view.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, but you don't need any official registration papers or pedigrees to do Schutzhund, SDA, CPE, APDT, C-WAGS, etc, etc. Really, *only* the registries require you to have some form of their registration in order to compete in *their* events, and why shouldn't they? It's their registry, their rules, their registration. I see you oppose certain things "on principle" but why would a registry allow you to compete without registering your dog or being a member of their registry? Like I said you can compete in those organizations listed earlier but even with a mixed breed you generally need to becoming a member and/or "register" your dog in their venue. I wanted to do an SDA trial with my dog, so guess what I had to pay $25 to become a member of SDA before we could enter.
> 
> There is absolutely no WAY I'd spay or neuter one of my dogs just based on trying to get AKC PAL papers.
> 
> As for conformation, I guess to me it makes sense that only intact, registered dogs can compete, since it is supposedly an evaluation for breeding. Why would one consider breeding a dog whose pedigree was unknown?


and thats the kicker if i were to find out my dog's dam's regisered name I would know her lines. also all of the registries require (except the continental club as I hear) to have a copy the dog or dog's parents AKC registration to be a member to show in their shows. as there doesnt seem to simply be a show only club a club that tracks the points of each member and their dog the titles achieved, who cares if its a mutt. also from what ive been told by several breeders is that a dog to compete in the major SCH club HAS to be pure german bred to even be considered as the judges will mark an amreican bred, even if its just partially american bred, down.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

thanks for clarifying..

Just to add, there ARE some org's, as Lies said, that you can 'show' and title without being reg'd..

AKC is out, but if you want to do agility, you can do Nadac, CPE, USDAA, she doesn't have to spayed, nor reg'd, you just have to "join" whatever org you wish to compete in. 

If you want to do obedience, check via Australian Shep Club,,same thing, you can get an asca tracking # and gain obed/agility titles thru them. The dog does not have to spayed. 

I'm not into schutzhund, so I'm not sure the requirements there, but Lies explained other orgs above...You could get her SAR certified, narcotics certified, Therapy certified, none of those require a dog to be "registered".

So there ARE options out there, just not AKC


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Delilah's_Human said:


> with dogs one sire could put thousands of dogs out there so to ask if one dog could make a difference I believe so. now take your K9 you mentioned. imagine he sired just one litter of pups and 1/2 that liter got his talent lets say thats 4 dogs total. so then they too are bred to an exceptional dogs each producing only ONE litter of 6 pups each. so we're already up to 24 dogs that one dog has effected. for all any one could know that dog might of been even better than his unregistered status allowed, however that we will never know.


The problem is, we have *no *idea of his lines since we have no papers. We can research his ancestry to have a better idea of what he may possess and why. He could be a complete fluke, a genetic anomally in an otherwise less than stellar line. His ancestors could be known to carry and pass on certain diseases, weak temperaments, etc. 
Breeding him we *might* get some pups that inherit some of his desirable traits, or we may get none. We may also end up with a litter of pups that have other traits found in the line that are not so desirable. 
Possessing desirable traits does not mean the dog will necessarily pass those one. 
This dog in particular ended up with severe HD, so breeding was off the table anyway. My point was merely that there can be exceptional non-registered dogs. 
Why choose to breed a dog from unknown ancestory, even if he excells at being a German Shepherd, if we can choose another dog, that is an equally good example, but comes from a known ancestory?
Wouldn't the offspring be much more likely to be what we want if we can select a mate to suit the lines?

I also like someone else's point about there are so many that excel at the job, it does not necessarily qualify one as breedworthy. 



Delilah's_Human said:


> EVERY dog impacts the breed. when people see my german shepherd walking quietly next to me down the street and they say wow thats a magnificent dog and they stop me and ask questions and I tell them to find a relilable breeder to speak to to help them find the perfect dog suited for them only for the person to say hey I think I want a german shepherd. My little mutt pup (heh her nick name as of late) just impacted the german shepherd breed not the AKC german Shepherds or the UKC or the CKC german shepherd but THE German shepherd breed as a whole. I think at the root of all things, papers are causing the breed more problems than anything they divide the breed into 'grade' and registered its like saying private school or public school.


I am talking genetically impacts the breed. There are only a few studs that really impact the breed. Again, possessing traits doesn't make a great stud. A great stud (or from my understanding since I don't breed) produces those traits, not just possesses them.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> thanks for clarifying..
> 
> Just to add, there ARE some org's, as Lies said, that you can 'show' and title without being reg'd..
> 
> ...


yeah but distance IS the UKC has shows right here in town 2-3 times a year ande really that was the real goal I had for showing not akc but to join their standards are the same they have to be spayed or AKC registered. where I live is much of the complication as driving to a large enough town would be 4+ hours.but ill see what i can do but getting her drug certified adn such like that does sound like fun anyone have any links they could send me to get started on something like that


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

An oops litter is ALWAYS the fault of the Owner. By things they have done or left undone, by things they allowed or did not disallow, by the persons they entrusted to care for their dog, the results are the OWNER's responsiblity and fault, and to say otherwise is rationalizing. 

Rationalizing makes people think everyone will be happy with them now because they are not longer responsible. It proves NOTHING but that the person is not suitable to own intact animals. If the person you entrusted the care of your intact dogs to failed to care for them as you intendended, take your lumps for choosing people that were not trustworthy.

And yes, it DOES make you a back yard breeder. 

The problem is that most people have very different definitions about the terms, puppy mill, BYB, hobbyist, commercial breeder, professional breeder, reputable breeder, etc. 

There are NO clear definitions to ANY of these terms. 

You see a hobbyist as someone who breeds out of their enjoyment of the breed, as opposed to someone who breeds dogs that require to be able to compete in some venue to be sold for enough to cover expenses and possibly salaries.

The true hobbyist, as is my understanding is someone who loves the breed, and breeds dogs with careful consideration to bloodlines, conformation, health, and aptitude (intelligence/temperament/natural instinct). A hobbyist DOES train and trial or work with their dogs. They use the information they glean from the process in their breeding decisions. A hobbyist is VERY much concerned with what happens to the breed as a whole, and is involved with the breed in one or more venues. And the hobbyist DOES charge a good price for his puppies. 

A puppy mill is any one who bases the majority of their decisions on the bottom line. They will feed and care for the dogs only so long and so much as is absolutely necessary to produce puppies for sale. Dogs will be in terrible conditions and in poor condition. 

A professional breeder is breeding by an far to produce superior animals for show, work or competition. This can be confused with a hobbyist as they also are breeding to produce superior animals for show, work, or competition. The difference may be in the scale, the number of puppies, that the profession breeder produces as opposed to the hobbyist; the number of dogs and whether those dogs are maitained and trained and titled by the owner in general or by others. I think there is a place for each of these and perhaps pros and cons of each as well. 

The BYB is any breeder who does not breed with a breeding plan, a goal for the future breedings, breeding without regard to pedigree, health, screenings, temperament, etc. A BYB might have titles, they may have OFAs, they may have looked into the pedigrees, mostly though they are using an available dog to pair with their bitch and will get a litter of puppies to sell or give away. They do not consider the larger picture. They do not see their dogs critically to find where they lack so to make the best possible mating, and they may or may not hold back a puppy or puppies to continue with. Oops litters fall into this category. You cannot possibly have made the best match with your bitch, and have a plan, on an accidental mating.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

novarobin said:


> The problem is, we have *no *idea of his lines since we have no papers. We can research his ancestry to have a better idea of what he may possess and why. He could be a complete fluke, a genetic anomally in an otherwise less than stellar line. His ancestors could be known to carry and pass on certain diseases, weak temperaments, etc.
> Breeding him we *might* get some pups that inherit some of his desirable traits, or we may get none. We may also end up with a litter of pups that have other traits found in the line that are not so desirable.
> Possessing desirable traits does not mean the dog will necessarily pass those one.
> This dog in particular ended up with severe HD, so breeding was off the table anyway. My point was merely that there can be exceptional non-registered dogs.
> ...


the point I was attempting (and failed) at making was in the instance you have a known unregisted dog it cant be fully registered for one reason or another and every other venue of the dog checks out except the papers, you know its parents and know its breeding is exceptional but again the papers just arent there. what then? then you have an exceptional dog that has more right to be bred than any AKC fully registered dog (but LOW quality dog) has any right to. OR in the very least to be SHOWN why should all the 'junk' dogs get the oppertunity to show and prove whether or not they are good or not and the actual quality dogs ge sluffed off ane end up with the short end of the stick.

as a side note it would be cool if breeders gave pet papers to start (though AKC would need to restrict the pet papers to no breeding only so that you could show the dog) then once the dog has been shown and achieves such adn such title then the breeder could sign off on a paper allowing full papers. then only the best offspring would be allowed to breed, the proven offspring. thats just an errant thought though and has nothing to do with my original argument lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Shows and trials are there primarily to evaluate breeding stock. They are not there to decide who has the prettiest dog. They are not there to have a good time with your pup. They are there to evaluate dogs on whether or not they should be bred and continue. Showing alterred dogs makes no sense at all. 

Showing alterred dog in obedience makes sense as obedience skills are worth having even in pets. 

However, there is always the possibility that someone make a dog an obedience champion and breed that dog as an obedience champion or agility champion or herding champion without regard to registration. So the AKC demands that a dog shown as a purebred dog without AKC registration (with pedigree, etc), be altered and shown under an alternative listing. 

It is them saying, we understand you love your dogs, and we love your money, so you can play in all but conformation if you get your dogs fixed first. Makes sense really. They are a registry for purebred dogs, dogs they can list the heritage for many generations. If you have a dog that looks purbred, but does not have the papers to back it up, you cannot show in their trials to evaluate dogs unless your QUESTIONABLE dog is neutered.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> An oops litter is ALWAYS the fault of the Owner. By things they have done or left undone, by things they allowed or did not disallow, by the persons they entrusted to care for their dog, the results are the OWNER's responsiblity and fault, and to say otherwise is rationalizing.
> 
> Rationalizing makes people think everyone will be happy with them now because they are not longer responsible. It proves NOTHING but that the person is not suitable to own intact animals. If the person you entrusted the care of your intact dogs to failed to care for them as you intendended, take your lumps for choosing people that were not trustworthy.
> 
> ...


how about Im not a BYB how about I made a bad choice and that person will never touch my dog(s) again. if I was a back yard breeder i wouldnt of taken half of the precautions to place the puppies in deserving homes nor would I of took the time to get the parents to atleast had thier hips looked at by a vet. I took more precautions than most in my situation would of. im not a breeder at all. I dont even OWN dogs of the oppisite gender anymore nor had I ever previously I always had either all males or all females. 


I personally dont like it when people take and cut well intentioned people down, there is a reason a litter is called an accident because thats what it was. If you have never made a mistake ever in your life then shame on you for lying. I can understand if this was intended or I gave the pups away or sold em to the highest bidder, I didnt. so back off this was supposed to simply be a conversation about registration and such not me in general it is based on my opinions but not about anything else let alone my "POS back yard aint worth spit" dog as you have so elloquently pointed out thank you very much now please see yourself out of this conversation.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Delilah's_Human said:


> the point I was attempting (and failed) at making was in the instance you have a known unregisted dog it cant be fully registered for one reason or another and every other venue of the dog checks out except the papers, you know its parents and know its breeding is exceptional but again the papers just arent there. what then? then you have an exceptional dog that has more right to be bred than any AKC fully registered dog (but LOW quality dog) has any right to. OR in the very least to be SHOWN why should all the 'junk' dogs get the oppertunity to show and prove whether or not they are good or not and the actual quality dogs ge sluffed off ane end up with the short end of the stick.


I think most of us are getting your point, we just don't agree.

And I know for me, it's based on the fact that there are too many people that will lie to make money on puppies.

So while you know you history and background for your dog and may be honest about it..... The issue is that many other people are big fat liars and would choose to breed a crap dog for the money and say it's actually from the best GSD (or whatever breed) ever and you'll end up with the best puppy ever please hand over your $1000 and 'trust me  )

The current registry program isn't perfect. There's no assurance of any good health or temperment. So you truly can have a marvelous unregistered dog that you shouldn't breed.................and I have a 3 legged, bent tailed, no earred, vicious GSD with papers that I can breed and give out the puppies with papers.

Problem goes back to a RESPONSIBLE breeder, what are the long term goals for their breeding program and what are they doing to reach those goals. I'm thinking an 'accidental' breeding has no part of it...... 

Responsible breeders then want to use OTHER responsible breeders and put their hard earned cash to a good cause for someone else who's trying to better the breed, have a real goal for their program, and willing to take the YEARS and effort that involves. 

So it's never about the wonderful dog I may have. There are thousands and thousands of wonderful dogs out there. Doesn't mean they should be bred. Doesn't mean puppies from them will be wonderful either. 

I personally think a registry is a great idea so you can research and keep track of everything. But I don't think anyone can breed and register the subsequent puppies until the parent dogs have some type of WORKING title (agility? Obedience? Tracking? ) along with some health certificates (hip/elbow xrays that pass? Others?). Cause I agree that JUST having registered parents isn't enough, there's more to a great dog than just their parentage....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Delilah's_Human said:


> the point I was attempting (and failed) at making was in the instance you have a known unregisted dog it cant be fully registered for one reason or another and every other venue of the dog checks out except the papers, you know its parents and know its breeding is exceptional but again the papers just arent there. what then? then you have an exceptional dog that has more right to be bred than any AKC fully registered dog (but LOW quality dog) has any right to. OR in the very least to be SHOWN why should all the 'junk' dogs get the oppertunity to show and prove whether or not they are good or not and the actual quality dogs ge sluffed off ane end up with the short end of the stick.
> 
> *as a side note it would be cool if breeders gave pet papers to start (though AKC would need to restrict the pet papers to no breeding only so that you could show the dog) then once the dog has been shown and achieves such adn such title then the breeder could sign off on a paper allowing full papers. then only the best offspring would be allowed to breed, the proven offspring. thats just an errant thought though and has nothing to do with my original argument lol*.


Maybe that would be cool, until you have jumped over all the hoops and have a great dog, great pedigree, ofa, titles, championship, and you breeder has been suspended or has died and suddenly your dog is no longer eligible for anything. 

No, if you want to buy a dog for breeding, that should be up front from the begining. You are paying for a history of OFA, titles, championships, type, pedigree, bloodlines, and you have full registration from the get-go. 

If you want to show your unregistered dog, do so at puppy matches. You will learn tons and have a lot of fun. By the time you are ready to buy a dog, you will do so with all your ducks in a row. 

There is absolutely no point in continuing on, breeding dogs that have no papers. BYBs have a wide range, from nearly puppy mill up to hobbyist. But breeding dogs without papers lands the breeder on the lower side of the BYB scale. Why would anyone want to do that? Not only is that terribly irresponsible in the area of too many unwanted GSDs out there, but if you ARE serious about being a breeder, then you will get a reputation for breeding dogs without papers. 

In breeding, a breeder's reputation is vulnerable to attack from all over. Breeding unpapered dogs, I do not know how one gets over that. The almighty oopse litter MAY be forgiven ONCE. But how could you ever possibly explain a second oopse with unpapered dogs???


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> Shows and trials are there primarily to evaluate breeding stock. They are not there to decide who has the prettiest dog. They are not there to have a good time with your pup. They are there to evaluate dogs on whether or not they should be bred and continue. Showing alterred dogs makes no sense at all.
> 
> Showing alterred dog in obedience makes sense as obedience skills are worth having even in pets.
> 
> ...


then why on earth are there halter (conformation) shows for geldings (nuetered horses), grade horses (unregistered) and for rabbits and cows and goat and sheep and CATS if there is no sence. why do people race each other in cars an on foot? for recignition and monetary gain. it because we all enjoy it whether its to prove breeding worth or to take my dog to a show and say yeah my dog has better structure than THAT dog. people are compedative.

also there is a reason its called america its called freedom of choice. I could spay my dog now, 2 weeks from now or never its my choice no one elses and honestly I have no gripe at all against the no breeding statue on pet papers even though it means my dog will never be registered that ok its something ive come to terms with. maybe in 10-20 years from now when my dog has passed away Ill get another and it will be special this or that. ther are afew things I know I wont do...I WONT buy from a major puppymill slash 'big time' breeder they are the same you know. they might put more money into their dogs and lug them around to shows but they only have one true purpose. MONEY I wont hand them 1500 of my hard earned money. I will go to a privately owned 'kennel' who might only have a few but quality dogs who doesnt charge me so much for a dog that I could equally of bought 2 riding horses or a top of the line show horse or a new car for that matter.

I guess im just stupid like that to think people could be honest when they do something, people are greedy end of story. Its sad but true


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Delilah's_Human said:


> how about Im not a BYB how about I made a bad choice and that person will never touch my dog(s) again. if I was a back yard breeder i wouldnt of taken half of the precautions to place the puppies in deserving homes nor would I of took the time to get the parents to atleast had thier hips looked at by a vet. I took more precautions than most in my situation would of. im not a breeder at all. I dont even OWN dogs of the oppisite gender anymore nor had I ever previously I always had either all males or all females.
> 
> 
> I personally dont like it when people take and cut well intentioned people down, there is a reason a litter is called an accident because thats what it was. If you have never made a mistake ever in your life then shame on you for lying. I can understand if this was intended or I gave the pups away or sold em to the highest bidder, I didnt. so back off this was supposed to simply be a conversation about registration and such not me in general it is based on my opinions but not about anything else let alone my "POS back yard aint worth spit" dog as you have so elloquently pointed out thank you very much now please see yourself out of this conversation.


BYBs generally love their dogs and find the puppies great homes. It does not make them responsible breeders. 

Anyone who owns a bitch who becomes pregnant while they own the bitch is a breeder. Like it or not, you are one. 

Using acronyms for swear words is against board rules. This is a public forum and I can answer a post if I choose to. I did not call your dog any type of name, and the best companion dog may not have papers. They are worth the world to their owners. But breeding them is irresponsible and oopse or not, it makes their owners BYBs.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> I think most of us are getting your point, we just don't agree.
> 
> And I know for me, it's based on the fact that there are too many people that will lie to make money on puppies.
> 
> ...


 
It makes sence but I guess im just angry at the hypocrisy of it all. *sigh*


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> I guess im just stupid like that to think people could be honest when they do something, people are greedy end of story


That's definitely part of the problem. But so is our poor memories and recollection. With an official registry, my breeding program wouldn't immediately fall into the crapper if I had no written records and suddenly got hit by a Mack Truck so there is no longer any record of all the fantastic stuff I knew about my dogs that was in my brain!

I personally feel there's a BIG difference between those breeding ONLY for conformation.....................and those breeding for health/temperment/work ethic. And I am WAY willing to pay the money to get someone who's breeding goals aren't primarily about the looks but about the dogs health/temperment/work ethic. 

Delilah's_Human I think you aren't looking at the $$$$$ spent for a puppy in the right way. It's not for the puppy at all. ANY puppy is going to be a bit of a crap shoot cause of the chance genetics tosses in. But I know I choose to balance that crap shoot in my favor by going with a RESPONSIBLE breeder.

And that's what we are talking about. All of us. Responsible breeding to get great dogs. For me, I choose to give my money to support a responsible breeders program. Their goals. Their long term aim for their lines. Their KNOWLEDGE and experience with the breed. Their ability to attempt to mix the best in their dogs with the best in other to keep getting closer to their goals. 

So I'm NOT paying $1000 or $1500 for a puppy. No way. 

I'm paying that money to the breeder so they can continue with a goal I agree with to get puppies and dogs that are in line with what I want. This money will help them to continue to get even more knowledge and experience and hopefully continue. And if I have to plan (gasp!) and save up and delay getting one of these puppies for a year or so, to make sure I can afford it.........then that's worth it to me.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> BYBs generally love their dogs and find the puppies great homes. It does not make them responsible breeders.
> 
> Anyone who owns a bitch who becomes pregnant while they own the bitch is a breeder. Like it or not, you are one.
> 
> Using acronyms for swear words is against board rules. This is a public forum and I can answer a post if I choose to. I did not call your dog any type of name, and the best companion dog may not have papers. They are worth the world to their owners. But breeding them is irresponsible and oopse or not, it makes their owners BYBs.


I wasnt substituting i meant it as literal take it as you will I guess. well I guess according to your thoughts then anyone who produces anything less than breedings quality is then a BYB which in turns means every breeder here and today is a BYB

*"A BYB might have titles, they may have OFAs, they may have looked into the pedigrees, mostly though they are using an available dog to pair with their bitch and will get a litter of puppies to sell"*

So that also means a large percentage of large breeders are puppy mills as once the useful life of a working dog (whether it being in breeding or in the ring) is done they often rehome, give away or sell

*"A puppy mill is any one who bases the majority of their decisions on the bottom line. They will feed and care for the dogs only so long and so much as is absolutely necessary to produce puppies for sale."*

so as a natural conclusion for me is that all breeders witht he exception of hobbyists are Back yard puppy mills. wow thats a nice thing to call someone who supposedly has the best of the breed in mind.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Delilah's_Human said:


> then why on earth are there halter (conformation) shows for geldings (nuetered horses), grade horses (unregistered) and for rabbits and cows and goat and sheep and CATS if there is no sence. why do people race each other in cars an on foot? for recignition and monetary gain. it because we all enjoy it whether its to prove breeding worth or to take my dog to a show and say yeah my dog has better structure than THAT dog. people are compedative.
> 
> also there is a reason its called america its called freedom of choice. I could spay my dog now, 2 weeks from now or never its my choice no one elses and honestly I have no gripe at all against the no breeding statue on pet papers even though it means my dog will never be registered that ok its something ive come to terms with. maybe in 10-20 years from now when my dog has passed away Ill get another and it will be special this or that. ther are afew things I know I wont do...I WONT buy from a major puppymill slash 'big time' breeder they are the same you know. they might put more money into their dogs and lug them around to shows but they only have one true purpose. MONEY I wont hand them 1500 of my hard earned money. I will go to a privately owned 'kennel' who might only have a few but quality dogs who doesnt charge me so much for a dog that I could equally of bought 2 riding horses or a top of the line show horse or a new car for that matter.
> 
> I guess im just stupid like that to think people could be honest when they do something, people are greedy end of story. Its sad but true


 
People are greedy. You will go to a small kennel and buy dogs that will be cheap. Good for you. 

I could make more money charging $500/puppy than I can making $1500 per puppy. That may not make sense to you. 

But if I bred all of my females twice a year, average litter size six puppies, at $500 per puppy, I would make $66,000/year. I spend on average $20,000 per year on my dogs. that would be $46,000 profit easy. Dogs go home at eight weeks old because all are sold for that cheap price right away. 

Instead I weed out this bitch for this reason, and that bitch for this other reason, and this other bitch as she had puppies six months ago, these three because they are not two years yet, and this other bitch because I do not want two litters on the ground at one time, and I end up with 1 possibly 2 litters in a year's time, average six puppy/litter at the price you quoted, $1500 = $9,000 to $18,000. At the end of the year I am 2-11k in the red. 

But you are going to go to someone who isn't in it for greedy purposes. 

FAIL.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> That's definitely part of the problem. But so is our poor memories and recollection. With an official registry, my breeding program wouldn't immediately fall into the crapper if I had no written records and suddenly got hit by a Mack Truck so there is no longer any record of all the fantastic stuff I knew about my dogs that was in my brain!
> 
> I personally feel there's a BIG difference between those breeding ONLY for conformation.....................and those breeding for health/temperment/work ethic. And I am WAY willing to pay the money to get someone who's breeding goals aren't primarily about the looks but about the dogs health/temperment/work ethic.
> 
> ...


So you are paying a breeder to have a job. you are paying said experianced breeder to make decision for the fate of a breed, I wonder how that breeder got started...(i really dont but please take note for sarcasum) I would surely bet that breeder started out as a back yard breeder and so with selzer's assumptions they are all BYBs. hmmm so much for responsible i can show you want 'responsible' breeder do to an animal and what registries ALLOW to happen. Im watching just that happen to the quarter horse. THATS what really upsets me more than being called names.

THIS is the average conformation quarter horse:










THIS is waht the average quarter horse should (he's not perfect but he looks like a horse I wouldnt mind riding)look like:










much like dogs they have a standard but stright legs and muscular has been taken to the extreme so that the conformation horses can no longer be used for anything BUT conformation classes. unsound at early ages because of arthritis in joints that take more concussion due to the extremem straightness of the joints adn the extra weight on the horse. this is merely 20-30 years of breeding and letting big breeders make the decisions. would you want that for the GSD? I was looking at a picture of a dog stacked and its hip was so low it looked like it's rear end out hit the ground and that it was in the middle of a lunge, thats not normal but thats where the breed is indeed headed as long as dollar signs are hte bottom line. so pardon me while I go to a 'hobby' breeder for my next dog to pay less and get a more thought out and reasoned production from that breeder rather than the product of what will make money.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Delilah's_Human said:


> then why on earth are there halter (conformation) shows for geldings (nuetered horses), grade horses (unregistered) and for rabbits and cows and goat and sheep and CATS if there is no sence.


I can't speak for all animals being shown, but I do know that there are registries for all the animals you have listed. Here in Idaho there are goat shows and rabbit shows, and even a few cat shows. The cat shows have a "fun class" strictly for unregistered house pets...where the cats have to be altered to enter. The other classes are limited to registered cats.

Maybe you are confusing 4-H, where the emphasis is on the care and handling of the animal by the child and not on any particular breeding or registration of the animal? In the case of 4-H there are tons of animals being shown, many of them unregistered. But maintaining a purebred registry isn't the mission of 4-H.

Livestock is really big here. I just don't see show/competition opportunities for unregistered livestock, unless we're talking about 4-H or open horse shows. I spent a fun afternoon with my niece at a goat show last month...and the people showing there were proudly posting the pedigrees of their goats for everyone to see. So even goats have registries! Some of the advertising talked about the bloodlines being known to produce great milkers, while others talked about lines producing great fibers and others great meat. 
Sheilah


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Delilah's_Human said:


> I wasnt substituting i meant it as literal take it as you will I guess. well* I guess according to your thoughts then anyone who produces anything less than breedings quality is then a BYB which in turns means every breeder here and today is a BYB Yes and no. Anyone breeding with anything less than maintaining the breed is a byb. Anyone without breeding toward some goal is a byb. You cannot just breed your bitch one time for a litter of puppies for any reason without being a byb. If you breed your bitch after careful thought and a good match and the puppies are not what you were hoping for and choose not to breed her again, you would not be a byb, you would be a responsible breeder with results less than your expectations. But if you go into breeding with the thought, "just one litter"... That, in my opinion is a byb. You cannot hope to breed to create a better dog, to maintain the breed, by breeding just one time, by breeding dogs that are not registered, by breeding dogs by accident. Etc. You do not have to have every duck in a row to line up perfectly not to be a byb, but you really have to have a good reason for breeding dogs that do not qualify in one respect or another.*
> 
> *"A BYB might have titles, they may have OFAs, they may have looked into the pedigrees, mostly though they are using an available dog to pair with their bitch and will get a litter of puppies to sell"*
> 
> ...


Nope not agreeing to that at all. I think there are puppy mills. There are back yard breeders. There are professional breeders. There are hobbyists. Reputable breeders is contraversial at best, but I think they can be found in professional and in hobbyists. I think a BYB can do their best for the dogs they created, but never be quite reputable, if they were they would fit in the hobbysit or professional breeder category.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

We can talk till the sun comes up on the evil that breeding animals for show does. 

I do not see how breeding unregistered animals would be anything more than trying to make two wrongs a right.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I would also add that the photo you posted of the "average" AQHA halter horse is not so average, but rather an example of extreme breeding and conditioning. The other picture looks like a reining/cow bred horse that has a use other than standing there and looking shiny. Please note I didn't say standing there and looking pretty, because IMO there is nothing pretty about a huge, over weight horse standing up on teeny-tiny feet.

This would be like posting a picture of a severely over angulated GSD and stating the dog is the "average AKC competition GSD".
Sheilah


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> People are greedy. You will go to a small kennel and buy dogs that will be cheap. Good for you.
> 
> I could make more money charging $500/puppy than I can making $1500 per puppy. That may not make sense to you.
> 
> ...


out of 22 dogs you only ever have 2 in a 10 month period (because they come in heat every 5 months correct?) you discounted 3 for being two young 3 because they were on vacation or not in shape whether health or whatever to breed) thats 6 out of 22. i left one on the table as you discounted her because you dont want 2 litters at once. so a dog is pregnant for about 2 months and the pups are around for 2 months thats say 5 months total that leaves a spare of two months where you could almost over lap bitches so that one litter is just being born while the other litter is almost out the door thus increasing by one whole litter. also there is such thing as a waiting list and with demand you can also be a little picky as well. it can be done. I mean I know people who want pets paying 1500 for a dog now imagine how many people who would of bought a BYB's pup would now be buying your high quality dog thus forcing the byb to drop their price but word of mouth is important if someone said to a BYB they could get a amazing dog right now for 800 buck Im sure they would certianly save and pay that simply because They could later breed that dog to this other dog they just picked up for 800 and they can sell the pups for 300 sure but now the breeding stock of the BYB JUST increased 10 fold. now the quality of dogs out there has increased. heck if you speak to them they might even learn something and become an actual ligitament breeder. BUT selling dogs like that wont ever happen because of this or that but honestly there are 2 ways I can think of to Improve the quality of dogs being produced thus making BYBs a non issue.

A: you make a law that only people liscenced to breed can do so taking away a persons right to own dogs essentially without extensive background checks and such much like they do with guns.

or

B: put quality stock in their hands and even offer free classes on choosing breedings dogs and the like or perhaps they have to take a class to get this dog at this price. then there is a chance they will actually learn something and you then improve the quality of the german shepherd all the way around. 

but that is just me being a optimist.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

sit said:


> I would also add that the photo you posted of the "average" AQHA halter horse is not so average, but rather an example of extreme breeding and conditioning.
> 
> _*5-6 years ago you would of been right but I can pull up picture after picture after picture of horses at high levels of competion in conformation classes.*_
> 
> ...


The other is a Two Time State Champion in Green and JR Western Pleasure, Winner of Multiple Circuit Championships and Multiple Western Pleasure Futurity Champion. and nearly every western pleasure, cow bred, horse looks that way the hunter under saddle horse "agilty" horses are lanky but otherwise look the same. my point is that the descions being made by big breeders is RUINING a breed of horse imagine how much faster that will happen for the dogs. I can go along breeds of horses too like the arabians and the morgans the changes arent as dramatic as the QH of course

It all ties together too. as long as ONE major registry controls what we can and cant do with our dogs the breeds will not improve without some kind of intervention. in the Qh's case there need to be some major rule changes for conformation Ive noiticed a change in the western pleasure horses as there were some performance issues there but its since mostly been fixed but still big breeders ruin things they arent here for the better of the breed they just want the money.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> We can talk till the sun comes up on the evil that breeding animals for show does.
> 
> I do not see how breeding unregistered animals would be anything more than trying to make two wrongs a right.


 

i dont know but I personally would buy a puppy that results from 2 upapered dogs with a known history that has proved its capeable of being a fine example of the breed through open shows then a dog that some guy down the road had two AKC dogs threw em together and hoped for the best. thats my point I'd take my pup over a huge percentage of dogs that are bred and have the 'right' to call themself pure bred while according to this and every other board my pup though definately better quality in conformation than the puppy mill or byb's AKC productions (im talking people who put two dogs together to make money off them with no regaurd to health mind or anything)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Delilah's_Human said:


> out of 22 dogs you only ever have 2 in a 10 month period (because they come in heat every 5 months correct?) you discounted 3 for being two young 3 because they were on vacation or not in shape whether health or whatever to breed) thats 6 out of 22. i left one on the table as you discounted her because you dont want 2 litters at once. so a dog is pregnant for about 2 months and the pups are around for 2 months thats say 5 months total that leaves a spare of two months where you could almost over lap bitches so that one litter is just being born while the other litter is almost out the door thus increasing by one whole litter. also there is such thing as a waiting list and with demand you can also be a little picky as well. it can be done. I mean I know people who want pets paying 1500 for a dog now imagine how many people who would of bought a BYB's pup would now be buying your high quality dog thus forcing the byb to drop their price but word of mouth is important if someone said to a BYB they could get a amazing dog right now for 800 buck Im sure they would certianly save and pay that simply because They could later breed that dog to this other dog they just picked up for 800 and they can sell the pups for 300 sure but now the breeding stock of the BYB JUST increased 10 fold. now the quality of dogs out there has increased. heck if you speak to them they might even learn something and become an actual ligitament breeder. BUT selling dogs like that wont ever happen because of this or that but honestly there are 2 ways I can think of to Improve the quality of dogs being produced thus making BYBs a non issue.
> 
> A: you make a law that only people liscenced to breed can do so taking away a persons right to own dogs essentially without extensive background checks and such much like they do with guns.
> 
> ...


I have eleven bitches. All of them old enough to be bred, but three are not old enough for me to breed them with OFAs etc, so they are out. That is eight dogs. Two I drop out because I am not pleased with how they acheived their titles, etc. That leaves six. Two will not be bred because of characteristics in asthetics, upright but wonky ears and light eyes, light eyes and light nails. That leaves four. One was not bred on her last cycle because her previous cycle produced two of my young ones. That leaves three. I have the room for two litters at once but have never tried it.

Eleven bitches aged 10 months and up COULD produce 22 litters in a year's time, an average of six per litter, is reasonable, as my litter sizes have been 7, 8, 7, 10, and 7. 

Selling puppies for cheap, breeding everything I own every cycle, I could probably support myself and them. 

Selling puppies breeding only my best bitches to outside dogs, with careful consideration, and selling them for more money will keep me poor. 

I must be greedy. 

I must be. 

I know someone who dropped his price to $500, and increased the number of dogs. THAT is greedy. 

It is therefore, often those decisions we make, from blanket statements, and from price alone, or from the number of dogs one ones, that actually make us buy from the worst kind of breeders rather than the best. 

Good breeders will have a couple of bitches to breed. But they will also have older dogs that are retired possibly; dogs that washed out, but that they did not rehome; dogs that came back from one reason or another; dogs that are up and coming. They will not breed everything and anything, and they will not sell their dogs cheap just for the sale.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Delilah's_Human said:


> the hunter under saddle horse "agilty" horses are lanky but otherwise look the same.


ummm...no they don't. The hunt seat horses are mostly thoroughbred. The most certainly do not look anything like those pictures, or even the western pleasure horses. They do not look like quarter horses. A good friend of mine is a trainer of horses that are top qualifiers at Congress and qualify for the World Show every year.

What do the rules and regs governing horse shows have to do with dogs anyways? Those are completely different organizations. The hunt seat horses are Appendix Quarter horses. Meaning they have to earn their merits before being allowed to fully register.

There are other organizations that have open shows. Just like there is with dogs. Agility has several organizations that don't care if there are registered dogs. ASCA allows other breeds to compete and do not care if the dog is registered (obviously not conformation as it is for Australian Shepherds). You have many different opportunities for your dog so I can not for the life of me figure out your rant.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Delilah's_Human said:


> i dont know but I personally would buy a puppy that results from 2 upapered dogs with a known history that has proved its capeable of being a fine example of the breed through open shows then a dog that some guy down the road had two AKC dogs threw em together and hoped for the best. thats my point I'd take my pup over a huge percentage of dogs that are bred and have the 'right' to call themself pure bred while according to this and every other board my pup though definately better quality in conformation than the puppy mill or byb's AKC productions (im talking people who put two dogs together to make money off them with no regaurd to health mind or anything)


But why not go the extra mile? 

Why not go to shows, and see the dog you like perform, and buy a dog WITH a history of titles, ofas, and pedigree that IS registered. 

Just because a dog IS registered does not mean it is faulty, lacks trialing, lacks ofas, etc. 

There are always jokers out there taking registered dogs and making more registered dogs without any other consideration. It is AKC it is worth $500. To get $500 for a dog without papers, the dog would have to have a LOT more to show for it. 

I would rather buy a pup from a dog that has a lot more to show for it, AND as papers, and am willing to put my money where my mouth is. 

But I would not but a dog that is not registratable.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> ummm...no they don't. The hunt seat horses are mostly thoroughbred. The most certainly do not look anything like those pictures, or even the western pleasure horses. They do not look like quarter horses. A good friend of mine is a trainer of horses that are top qualifiers at Congress and qualify for the World Show every year.
> 
> What do the rules and regs governing horse shows have to do with dogs anyways? Those are completely different organizations. The hunt seat horses are Appendix Quarter horses. Meaning they have to earn their merits before being allowed to fully register.
> 
> There are other organizations that have open shows. Just like there is with dogs. Agility has several organizations that don't care if there are registered dogs. ASCA allows other breeds to compete and do not care if the dog is registered (obviously not conformation as it is for Australian Shepherds). You have many different opportunities for your dog so I can not for the life of me figure out your rant.


um you are actually very wrong as my QH hunter under saddle stallion has tb sure 4 gernerations BACK does THIS look like a half tb to you:










he's a Hunter, a western pleasure and halter horse. hmmm darn. and he has qualified for world but as far as I know never shown world. saying hunter under saddle horses are mostly TB is like saying all german shepherds are mean etc.

I know invatation only isnt he's hunt seat and he's not even appendix (appendix is when they are 1/2 tb and 1/2 qh


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> But why not go the extra mile?
> 
> Why not go to shows, and see the dog you like perform, and buy a dog WITH a history of titles, ofas, and pedigree that IS registered.
> 
> ...


thats you. if i seen say a 'grade' dog that otherwise should be registered with a known pedigree and has proven its self in say SCH or otherwise, clean hips and elbows bred to a like dog (also grade or reg, with hips cheacked, and proven to perform) I would pay 500 for it but not a penny more.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And you would be supporting BYBs. 

Sorry, but if people do not have papers, then they are lying and cheating somewhere. If you know the history, and did not pay for full registration, if you buy a dog with a known history but the person you bought from did not pay for full registration, then there is lying there. 

If you buy from someone who was suspended from AKC, that is supporting that. 

If you breed a dog from that backgrownd, you are condoning that.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think it comes down to this - your top price that you would pay is $500. 
A dog like you are describing - unregistered, but with good working ability, can be had for $50 in the parking lot of Wal-Mart. 

It's an old argument, should you lower price to compete? or do you compete by producing superior dogs? People have argued that John Q Public will buy from reputable breeders if they weren't so expensive. I disagree because John Q Public will buy an unlimited amount of worthless crap just because they saw it advertised on TV. 

The price is set by what people are willing to pay for it - $1500 isn't a price you are willing to pay, others are. I know people who believe that paying ANY price for a dog is stupid - after all there are tons of them free-to-good-home every day. They believe that the $45 that the pound charges is ridiculous.....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am going to go farther.

People do not get suspended from the AKC because someone did not like them. It doesn't happen because of politics, or because they bred a dog with hip dysplasia or bred a dog without titles. 

To get suspended or kicked out of the AKC, you have to commit fraud, or keep numerous dogs in unkempt conditions. A conviction for cruelty to animals will get you there. Do you want to support such an individual???

If someone sells a dog on a limited registration, offers full registration if the dog gets a title, and if the dog passes its hip and elbow screenings, and the owner decides that is a bunch of huey, and breeds the dog without doing these things, asks the breeder to switch it and the breeder refuses. Do you want to condone what the owner of the limited registration dog did?

If a breeder sells a puppy on a limited registration for half price because the dog has a conformation fault, and the owner decides to breed it anyway to make pretty puppies because it is blue or liver or white or whatever. Do you want to condone that?

There is a reason your dog does not have papers. Someone somewhere did not go for full registration. To breed that dog is to do wrong by someone.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Delilah's_Human said:


> yeah but distance IS the UKC has shows right here in town 2-3 times a year ande really that was the real goal I had for showing not akc but to join their standards are the same they have to be spayed or AKC registered. where I live is much of the complication as driving to a large enough town would be 4+ hours.but ill see what i can do but getting her drug certified adn such like that does sound like fun anyone have any links they could send me to get started on something like that


You're preaching to the choir. I've traveled multiple STATES over just to compete with my dogs (both show and sport/performance). Heck I used to drive two hours each way at least once a week just for regular training. The distance for shows and events is really no excuse to be angry at the AKC and other registries for not allowing an unregistered dog to enter their events.

You do NOT have to have pedigree and papers to compete in Schutzhund, that is only at the highest levels (because at the highest level you are either representing a breed, and thus you must prove the dog is purebred by way of registering with the FCI-recognized registry which in this country is the AKC, or the team is setup through the AKC and thus the dogs must be AKC registered). Lucia on this board has Schutzhund titles on her shelter mixed breed. In fact, many people WITH registered purebred dogs enter them as mixes because it can be easier/cheaper to get a scorebook that way. I have a purebred female who is AKC and UKC fully registered and I would have gotten a scorebook as a mix had I chosen to continue her in SchH because I didn't feel like ordering her pedigrees and sending in all her paperwork.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Delilah's_Human said:


> *thats my point I'd take my pup over a huge percentage of dogs that are bred and have the 'right' to call themself pure bred while according to this and every other board my pup though definately better quality in conformation* than the puppy mill or byb's AKC productions (im talking people who put two dogs together to make money off them with no regard to health mind or anything)


I think your point is well taken. Not every dog that's registered with the AKC is a great or even good dog. Yes, there are a lot of lousy breeders with registered dogs, and there are a lot of great dogs with no papers. That's the way it is, nothing in life is perfect. 

I'm guessing you're not a big fan of the AKC and there's nothing wrong with that, but at the same time you're angry because you can't show your dog in their ring. It's their ring and their rules. You've made a choice to not play by their rules because your dog isn't registered, and you've made a choice not to spay or neuter your dog so it can't compete in other AKC events. What else is there to say except we all make choices and then we live with them. 

As other people have mentioned, if you really want to do something with your dog there are lots of other options that don't involve the AKC.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think your point is well taken. Not every dog that's registered with the AKC is a great or even good dog. Yes, there are a lot of lousy breeders with registered dogs, and there are a lot of great dogs with no papers. That's the way it is, nothing in life is perfect.
> 
> I'm guessing you're not a big fan of the AKC and there's nothing wrong with that, but at the same time you're angry because you can't show your dog in their ring. It's their ring and their rules. You've made a choice to not play by their rules because your dog isn't registered, and you've made a choice not to spay or neuter your dog so it can't compete in other AKC events. What else is there to say except we all make choices and then we live with them.
> 
> As other people have mentioned, if you really want to do something with your dog there are lots of other options that don't involve the AKC.


Excellent post ... I agree with what you're saying! I wish the poster would talk about dogs and leave discussons about horses to a forum dedicated to horses - I could care less how horse owners handle registration and shows!


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> I think it comes down to this - your top price that you would pay is $500.


you misunderstand I'd pay up to 500 for the RIGHT unregistered dog if there were such a thing and Im sure there is somewhere. I cant be the only one who had a ligitamently purchased GSD of good quality (i dont say great because he was never full hip checked so im simply leaving room for error) Im sure there is someone who paid the prices and maybe feels as I do about the industry. IDk im saying if the situation came up I would. my *top top top* price would be 1000 and thats for a good solid german bred dog.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> I think your point is well taken. Not every dog that's registered with the AKC is a great or even good dog. Yes, there are a lot of lousy breeders with registered dogs, and there are a lot of great dogs with no papers. That's the way it is, nothing in life is perfect.
> 
> I'm guessing you're not a big fan of the AKC and there's nothing wrong with that, but at the same time you're angry because you can't show your dog in their ring. It's their ring and their rules. _You've made a choice to not play by their rules because your dog isn't registered, and you've made a choice not to spay or neuter your dog so it can't compete in other AKC events. What else is there to say except we all make choices and then we live with them. _
> 
> ...


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

arycrest said:


> Excellent post ... I agree with what you're saying! I wish the poster would talk about dogs and leave discussons about horses to a forum dedicated to horses - I could care less how horse owners handle registration and shows!


see thats right there is close minded because ideas sometimes can be good ones where ever they come from. so what my knowledge originally lies with horses thats how I compare things and thats how I sometimes make things work in my head.

there are many examples of things done in the dog world that could be done in the horse world and just be a great idea. like the idea of restricting breeding rights from breeder to new baby horse owner. maybe that would slow the over population of horse maybe it wont it wouldnt hurt to try it im sure.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

anyways I would love more information on showing SCH and stuff I requested information last time someone brought some interesting points up but no one ever posted any further about it.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Ok, so I will add a few things to the already beaten and sore topic. :smirk:

I do not agree with showing/registering dogs of "unknown" or "unproven" lineage, meaning; yes you may know who their parents are but the big question would be WHY is this dog not registered more times then not it is because a dog somewhere down the line if not the parents were sold as a "PET" and were not to be bred.

Long Stock Coat is not a Major fault. It is now accepted in the German show ring as a separate variety. AKC and UKC only see it as a fault which to me is the same as any other fault a dog might get marked down for, no dog is perfect.

AKC and several other registries will throw Sectioned B matches at some of their conformation shows, which your dog does not need to be registered for but 99.9% of the dogs that are entered are regisered since the majority of the people that enter have registered dogs that they show. You don't earn any titles and are normally judged by an apprentice or "hobbyist" who may or may not know your breed but you do get a pretty ribbon. The majority of pet people or people with unregistered dogs do not want to show, they got themselves a pet and they are fine with that or they would have gotten themselves a dog that was registered.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

in the end, dogs are NOT horses. They are a whole other ball of wax. You may not 'like' or "agree" with rules and regs set forth for the dog world, and that's your choice.

If you want to 'show' /compete with your dog, you need to find something that allows you to do so without the dog being spayed. If you can't, well, then you need to accept the fact that you can't show and go on with life.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Delilah's_Human said:


> anyways I would love more information on showing SCH and stuff I requested information last time someone brought some interesting points up but no one ever posted any further about it.


I

If you go down to the section on Schutzhund you can read until your eyes cross.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I myself am not concerned that we will loose valuable genetics due to an unregistered dog not being bred. I just do not see that there is this danger at this point in the breed. I have had dogs I thought were probably breedworthy and I have known others that I considered so. They were registered and could have been bred, but were not. No tragedy there in my mind either.

I have two rescued dogs. I neutered both of them in order to get PAL registration. Now, I train slowly so they were older dogs when altered. They were adopted for competition training and so they need to fit that requirement for participation in the AKC events we do.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I
> 
> If you go down to the section on Schutzhund you can read until your eyes cross.


 
Thanks!!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Delilah's_Human said:


> there are many examples of things done in the dog world that could be done in the horse world and just be a great idea.


Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. I have no idea because I don't know anything about horses and how they're registered, and I really don't care. But you can talk about how much better things would be if the AKC and other registries would change their rules all you want, but in then end it's all moot. The rules are what the rules are. You can like them or not, but if you want to play in their venue you have no choice but to follow their rules. Ranting and raving about them isn't going to make them change the rules to suit you. :shrug:


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. I have no idea because I don't know anything about horses and how they're registered, and I really don't care. But you can talk about how much better things would be if the AKC and other registries would change their rules all you want, but in then end it's all moot. The rules are what the rules are. You can like them or not, but if you want to play in their venue you have no choice but to follow their rules. Ranting and raving about them isn't going to make them change the rules to suit you. :shrug:


 
Um I think the name of the discussion was restration for discussion sake... I think that implies just that....that they will never chage...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What I don't understand is when threads like this pop up (not accusing the OP, just saying in general since I've seen this same type of thing on many different boards) complaining about registrations and not being able to breed and this or that....if people are intending to get into showing and/or competing and possibly breeding dogs, why not start with good quality dogs of known lineage that are registered or registerable in all the venues in which the owner wants to participate? Why get a dog without registration that is not eligible for registration and then rant about the AKC, UKC etc? I know nothing about horses so I'm not even reading the bits and pieces of this thread referring to horses. To me it has nothing to do with either species. If you want to play golf you get clubs not a tennis racket.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Delilah's_Human said:


> that they will never chage...



What should be changed and why?


There are already registries and shows for pet quality dogs, altered dogs, dogs without proven pedigrees, mixed breed dogs, designer breeds, foundation stocks, etc.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Liesje said:


> What I don't understand is when threads like this pop up (not accusing the OP, just saying in general since I've seen this same type of thing on many different boards) complaining about registrations and not being able to breed and this or that....if people are intending to get into showing and/or competing and possibly breeding dogs, why not start with good quality dogs of known lineage that are registered or registerable in all the venues in which the owner wants to participate? Why get a dog without registration that is not eligible for registration and then rant about the AKC, UKC etc? I know nothing about horses so I'm not even reading the bits and pieces of this thread referring to horses. To me it has nothing to do with either species. If you want to play golf you get clubs not a tennis racket.


 
the dog the sire of my pup is or well could be but due to no communication from the breeder the only thing avialable is pet papers for the dog. im not even up set ove no breeding but the no showing does. I think thats not even right. thats all that it...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

But if you really wanted to show a dog why buy a dog without the papers needed to show it? Unless the dog is an import you can have the papers with the dog at 7 weeks. How is that a problem with the AKC and why would they need to change their registration status?

I like to show my dogs and do a lot of other sport and performance events. When I'm inquiring about purchasing a dog I always ask about the registration and papers. Those alone do not tell me anything about the quality of the dog or its potential but I need to have them in order to participate in the activities I like. There are enough GSDs and breeders out there to get the dog I want without having to sacrifice showing and competing because of papers. It's easy enough to clear up before any dogs or money changes hands.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Liesje said:


> But if you really wanted to show a dog why buy a dog without the papers needed to show it? Unless the dog is an import you can have the papers with the dog at 7 weeks. How is that a problem with the AKC and why would they need to change their registration status?
> 
> I like to show my dogs and do a lot of other sport and performance events. When I'm inquiring about purchasing a dog I always ask about the registration and papers. Those alone do not tell me anything about the quality of the dog or its potential but I need to have them in order to participate in the activities I like. There are enough GSDs and breeders out there to get the dog I want without having to sacrifice showing and competing because of papers. It's easy enough to clear up before any dogs or money changes hands.


 
when I bought him I wasnt even told what they were. I thought an AKC was an AKC. stupid me.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

this is the dog with pet papers at 10 months old:



















This past spring but obviously not a perfect stack  :


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I would chalk it up to a learning experience or bad experience with the breeder than the AKC being at fault needing to change how they process registrations.

:shrug:


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Liesje said:


> I guess I would chalk it up to a learning experience or bad experience with the breeder than the AKC being at fault needing to change how they process registrations.
> 
> :shrug:


yes and I do think it would be a good Idea still to allow showing even with pet papers i mean what exactly does it hurt to allow the dog to show?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Showing is an evaluation of breeding stock. A dog without a proven lineage, a dog that is not intact, a dog that is pet quality, etc is not breeding stock. Sometimes shows can take all day or days, it can already be very long and drawn out. Even with allowing pet dogs and the added entry fees I suspect they would lose a lot of people like me that take it more seriously and are not interested the show now taking twice a long with the addition of dogs that are not serious about competing or breeding.

You can still take a conformation class though.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Delilah's_Human said:


> yes and I do think it would be a good Idea still to allow showing even with pet papers i mean what exactly does it hurt to allow the dog to show?


You can put his photos in the Critque My Dog section and probably get some honest feedback about his structure if that's what you're looking for.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Delilah's_Human said:


> *yes and I do think it would be a good Idea still to allow showing even with pet papers* i mean what exactly does it hurt to allow the dog to show?


But so what? Whether YOU think it's a "good idea" or not is moot, that's not how it works. As Lies pointed out, the purpose of showing is to evaluate breeding stock.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The purpose of showing is to show what a pedigree has produced. Without a pedigree, there is not really much purpose in the showing. The genetics behind what is in produced is where the knowledge could be gained. If we don't know what produced the dog, then what would be the reason to exhibit?


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

You know I do wish they made a limited/show only status for papers. It would help beeders who want to make sure people are going to actually show and not just run off and breed the dog with out getting a conformation title first because in the end people lie to make a quick buck.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Delilah's_Human said:


> you misunderstand I'd pay up to 500 for the RIGHT unregistered dog if there were such a thing and Im sure there is somewhere. I cant be the only one who had a ligitamently purchased GSD of good quality (i dont say great because he was never full hip checked so im simply leaving room for error) Im sure there is someone who paid the prices and maybe feels as I do about the industry. IDk im saying if the situation came up I would. my *top top top* price would be 1000 and thats for a good solid german bred dog.


From experience, if your "top top top" price is $1,000 - *good luck* with finding a real good GSD show dog.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> You can put his photos in the Critque My Dog section and probably get some honest feedback about his structure if that's what you're looking for.


 
I did and every one loved him.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Samba said:


> The purpose of showing is to show what a pedigree has produced. Without a pedigree, there is not really much purpose in the showing. The genetics behind what is in produced is where the knowledge could be gained. If we don't know what produced the dog, then what would be the reason to exhibit?


It NOT just for proving breeding stock. Im just talking breeders handing out pet papers which allow showing because by doing that it helps show not just that they could show and prove what his or her parents produce


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Delilah's_Human said:


> Ok I was talking about my unpapered pup on another forum and they went off the deep end then finally asked well why not just spay her to get her reg WITH AKC or UKC so I could work her toward a title or championship?
> 
> Now lets say I spay her and I achieve said award. now what? all I see when stuff like that happens are horses like Scamper (one of the top barrel horses) and Gem Twist (world renowned stadium jumper). Im using horses here because im not familliar with dogs, but both were gelded (nuetered) when young or because they were unable to get papers (like Scamper) then turn out to be outstanding in some field then you miss a genetic chance to improve on a breed. *not that its my puppy who is gonna be that, yeah right im not that nieve, lol.* I needed to state that so no one would get the wrong impression.
> 
> ...


If your dog is not registered, it is useless for breeding in a reputable program. If yiu were the least aware of bredding to improve the breed, then you would understand that it is NOT just the look and mental ability of the dog that is looked at when considering whether to include a certain dog or bitch in a breeding program. It is also the genotype and the dog's ancestors, i.e. in line breeding considerations etc. etc. You have NO idea of the ancestors of your dog.

In fact without a registration/pedigree, you actually can't be sure that it is a pure bred, can you?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Delilah's_Human said:


> It NOT just for proving breeding stock. Im just talking breeders handing out pet papers which allow showing because by doing that it helps show not just that they could show and prove what his or her parents produce


?????????????????????????????????????


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> ?????????????????????????????????????


I too am confused by this statement. I started to write to address it, but I think I may have misinterpreted it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Breeders selling show quality dogs DO sell them with registrations that allow the owners to show them to their potential. I've shown all three of my current GSDs. If you are clear to the breeder that you are looking for a dog with show potential and will commit to showing it you should not have problems getting full registration and showing the dog. But yeah, it implies you are dealing with reputable breeders who have show quality dogs and don't have "issues" with the registration status. Again this is something that should have been arranged prior to purchasing the dog. I still don't understand why you bought a dog without papers if you wanted a show and breeding prospect?


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

novarobin said:


> I too am confused by this statement. I started to write to address it, but I think I may have misinterpreted it.


 
ok when you show an animal from say a germanshepherd you prove two things A: If they breeding worthy AND whether people realize it or not it also proves how strong a genetic line is. so if the sire was say a show dog and a large percent of his offspring from different bitches is shown and succeed it shows what the sire is able to produce and would later make for good advertising. so by limiting showing with the pet papers you take all chance away from that dog to be shown. the dog might of been bred for the confirmation ring and doesnt have what it takes to make it ther but the dog could of been shown in obediance but cant be due to pet papers. also as someone else said breeders could give pet papers then to people who supposedly want to show, show the dog first before breeding IF the no showing restriction was removed from the pet papers.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Breeders selling show quality dogs DO sell them with registrations that allow the owners to show them to their potential. I've shown all three of my current GSDs. If you are clear to the breeder that you are looking for a dog with show potential and will commit to showing it you should not have problems getting full registration and showing the dog. But yeah, it implies you are dealing with reputable breeders who have show quality dogs and don't have "issues" with the registration status. Again this is something that should have been arranged prior to purchasing the dog. I still don't understand why you bought a dog without papers if you wanted a show and breeding prospect?


I didnt plan on breeding only showing and the dog had AKC registration certificate. the lady didnt have it it was with the sister but I knew I would never see them. by knowing his breeder however I figured I could get them well he only had a registration certificate for PET papers adn at the time I didnt know what that meant I just thought with them I couldnt breed and I was ok with that completely but ive learned otherwise obviously and I ended up with my 'mutt' pup but thats ok.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> the dog might of been bred for the confirmation ring and doesnt have what it takes to make it ther but the dog could of been shown in obediance but cant be due to pet papers.


Dogs can still show in AKC events with "pet papers" (limited registration).


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Dogs can still show in AKC events with "pet papers" (limited registration).


it said on the papers of another GSD I had about a month ago that they werent allowed to be shown right on the form.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Delilah's_Human said:


> I didnt plan on breeding only showing and the dog had AKC registration certificate. the lady didnt have it it was with the sister but I knew I would never see them. by knowing his breeder however I figured I could get them well he only had a registration certificate for PET papers adn at the time I didnt know what that meant I just thought with them I couldnt breed and I was ok with that completely but ive learned otherwise obviously and I ended up with my 'mutt' pup but thats ok.


When you say Pet Papers...what exactly do you mean? 
Does the paperwork say American Kennel Club at the top or Dog Registration Application?
Does the paperwork have the name and registration numbers for your dogs sire and dam?

If not can you explain exactly what the papers you have say? 

You keep referring to pet papers, but unless it's the AKC Registration form with Limited Registration X'd out, I can't figure out what paper you have.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

"Showing" *is* conformation. Competing in AKC events such as obedience or rally or tracking or agility is not showing.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> When you say Pet Papers...what exactly do you mean?
> Does the paperwork say American Kennel Club at the top or Dog Registration Application?
> Does the paperwork have the name and registration numbers for your dogs sire and dam?
> 
> ...


they are the AKC reg form with limited registration colored in (this was another dog that was fixed and found a home)


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> A dog with a FULL AKC Registration can be shown in the conformation ring as well as take part in all other AKC sanctioned events.
> 
> A dog with a LIMITED AKC Registration can't be shown in the conformation ring but can still take part in most other AKC sanctioned events.
> 
> The dog you had a month ago, (where'd he go?) must have had a limited registration.


 
see i didnt know this either. when it sayins you cant show it means you cant show so maybe some extra words should be added to clarify


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

This page explains what you can and can't do with a dog that has a limited registration. 

Limited Registration


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Whiteshepherds said:


> This page explains what you can and can't do with a dog that has a limited registration.
> 
> Limited Registration


 
thanks


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Delilah's_Human said:


> ok when you show an animal from say a germanshepherd you prove two things A: If they breeding worthy AND whether people realize it or not it also proves how strong a genetic line is. so if the sire was say a show dog and a large percent of his offspring from different bitches is shown and succeed it shows what the sire is able to produce and would later make for good advertising. so by limiting showing with the pet papers you take all chance away from that dog to be shown.


If the breeder wanted a dog's progeny to be shown, then they would have properly registered the litters of said dog. I understand what you are saying but it makes no sense when you think it through. If the breeder wanted their sire's progeny to be shown then they would have given you the proper papers in the first place. AGain, to me this is not an issue with the AKC but with bad dealings between a breeder and buyer.

Take Pan for example. His parents are not show dogs, they are working line dogs but they have good show ratings and are KKL1. In fact Pan's sire has beaten a now VA1 rated showline dog. When I inquired about getting a puppy I made it clear that Schutzhund was my main priority but that I like to show my dogs, and that I wanted the "type" of dog that Pan's sire is. That is the type of dog I personally like to have a show, regardless of lines or color. Pan was sold to me with FULL registration because I intend to show him (actually I already have). Usually they sell puppies with limited registration to people who are interested in Schutzhund or AKC performance events. It really was not that difficult, I just explained what I was looking for and why, and they offered a dog with full AKC reg even if it's not what they normally do. I didn't have to go back later to get "papers" or pay extra or anything like that. I also joked about showing Pan's sire at another Sieger Show and having a progeny group which means Pan and his other offspring would show together in a group to showcase what the sire produces. Again we are not even talking about a showline dog. It's entirely doable with the right breeder and really not rocket science.




> also as someone else said breeders could give pet papers then to people who supposedly want to show, show the dog first before breeding IF the no showing restriction was removed from the pet papers.


Not having papers does not prevent breeding. In the USA there really aren't any restrictions on breeding. The litter would not be registerable but as this thread proves (since you bought a dog that cannot be registered) that obviously doesn't matter to a lot of people.

If a breeder cannot trust a buyer to do as they say, then they are fully within their right to simply not sell them a dog. If Pan's breeder had told me no, they would not sell him on full registration I would not have held that against them, I just would have gone somewhere else for a dog. It seems on here everything falls on breeders and they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. I tend to put the responsibility on the side of the buyer. A breeder can't and shouldn't have to control every aspect of every dog that they produce and sell. It's not fair and unrealistic.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

AKC
Registration Application; this is what you may receive to register your puppy. Some breeders register the puppy for you and allow you to pick a name so that they can make sure that the puppy gets registered. Now in this picture the Application is a able to register online so there are numbers in the limited box and there is a pin number. Applications that do not allow you to register online will not have the numbers in the limited box and will not have a pin number.










Full Registration Certificate; this is what you receive after registering the dog.










Limited Registration Certificate; this is what you receive after registering a dog with the Limited box filled in.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

KLCecil said:


> AKC
> Registration Application; this is what you may receive to register your puppy. Some breeders register the puppy for you and allow you to pick a name so that they can make sure that the puppy gets registered. Now in this picture the Application is a able to register online so there are numbers in the limited box and there is a pin number. Applications that do not allow you to register online will not have the numbers in the limited box and will not have a pin number.
> 
> 
> ...


the first one was kinda what I recieved it was a little different but essentially the same for that dog. I never laid eyes on Jack's however, so he's now just a grade dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> "Showing" *is* conformation. Competing in AKC events such as obedience or rally or tracking or agility is not showing.


What is it then, if not showing? 

Competing in a AKC Obedience Trial *is* showing - at least one has to fill out a show application and one gets assigned a show trial number and is listed in a dog show catalog. 

Conformation (or breed) is just a different type of showing.

At least as far I am aware.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Delilah's_Human said:


> the first one was kinda what I recieved it was a little different but essentially the same for that dog. I never laid eyes on Jack's however, so he's now just a grade dog.


 
Sounds like maybe you might want to go back and check what you actually received from the breeder of your dog.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I'm not understanding most of this.....I've tried reading through the pages...I now have a headache.
Can someone just easily "sum up" what is the situation.....?!
Robin


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LOL Robin we feel the same and HAVE tried to follow it. The gist I get is that the OP now has a dog s/he would like to do and/or do AKC performance events with but for whatever reason the dog is not eligible for AKC registration. The OP belives the AKC should allow unregistered or limited registration dogs to compete in conformation events.


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Competing in AKC events such as obedience or rally or tracking or agility is not showing.


I've always referred to any events I exhibited the dogs in as "showing" *shrugs*


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## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Delilah's_Human said:


> ok when you show an animal from say a germanshepherd you prove two things A: If they breeding worthy AND whether people realize it or not it also proves how strong a genetic line is. so if the sire was say a show dog and a large percent of his offspring from different bitches is shown and succeed it shows what the sire is able to produce and would later make for good advertising. so by limiting showing with the pet papers you take all chance away from that dog to be shown. the dog might of been bred for the confirmation ring and doesnt have what it takes to make it ther but the dog could of been shown in obediance but cant be due to pet papers. also as someone else said breeders could give pet papers then to people who supposedly want to show, show the dog first before breeding IF the no showing restriction was removed from the pet papers.


Ok, I did interpret how you meant it. 

But I won't bother with my post since we have cleared up the issue of 'pet" papers anyway. 
It can be changed, so if someone is sold a dog on limited registration and decide later to show, the breeder can change the status. 
The dog can also compete in other events beside conformation even with limited reg. 

The thing is, is that breeders use a limited registration because they anticipate this dog will not be show/work or breeding quality. The dog is sold specifically as a pet dog.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Ok...got it.
Since the *Conformation Class* is/was designed as a "breed class"..._ie...dogs to be considered for breed worthiness....._.allowing dogs *not eligible for breeding* (due to being altered, breed restricted or non proven lineage) is fruitless.
The rules are set in place for a reason....
One can find multiple other venues to compete in, other than the conformation breed shows, with "restricted" dogs.....one just needs to do a little research.
Those venues can be very satisfying also!
jmo
Robin


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Sounds like maybe you might want to go back and check what you actually received from the breeder of your dog.


oh the other dog that I had is already registered with his pet papers but thats where I seen that he wasnt allowed to show and when I think of showing I think of ALL showing and I thought it was comepletely obsurd as you can tell by my 8 page rant ha ha. I just think it was an older version of a registration application


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Can we refer to pet papers as to what they actually are? Limited registration. When I think and see "pet papers" I think of some made up registry and it confuse other people since that is not what they are referred to as.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

KLCecil said:


> Can we refer to pet papers as to what they actually are? Limited registration. When I think and see "pet papers" I think of some made up registry and it confuse other people since that is not what they are referred to as.


there were a few times I actually said limited registration but eventually just reduced it to pet papers as when a dog is sold with LR papers its sold as a pet adn they are papers for a pet....pet papers


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Let me see if I can sum this up?

1. There was this dog. It had limited registration. And somebody bred it because he was an awesome dog. You have a puppy out of this dog. 

2. This puppy cannot have full registration or limited registration, eventhough you know the puppy's ancestry. 

3. Now that you have purchased a dog that cannot be registered, you would like to be able to show the dog, and feel that shows should be open to dogs that cannot be registered. 

4. A PAL number, offered by the AKC to be able to show in performance events is not an option because that would mean spaying or neutering your dog.

5. Registration papers are overrated because lots of registered dogs are crappy, and people breed registered dogs indiscriminately, and people breeding registered dogs specifically for show are ruining the breed, blah, blah, blah.

Actually, registration papers are overrated because you cannot get them. 

Nobody on this site is going to tell you that breeding your unregistered dog for any reason whatsoever is a good idea.

I think you should found your own site for people who have awesome dogs and will breed them regardless to the fact that they have no papers. Because, you are not alone. There are a cajilion people out there with great pets, who are not registered and want to breed them, and probably will.

You think things do not change in the AKC. However, I competed with mutts in Cleveland. That is new. Now people with mixed breed dogs can get titles on them. I think that is awesome because it promotes good dog ownership/training with a goal in mind. 

I wonder too, why are you giving the AKC a hard time on this. Why single them out? Why not be equally ticked at the SV? The SV will not provide you papers for your dog either. 

And what the heck is a "grade dog"?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> And what the heck is a "grade dog"?


One of unknown/unregistered parentage. 

A grade horse is a horsey version of a mutt.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Is it common to use the term in reference to dogs. Is it common in specific locations, the south, or the west? I have never heard of a dog referred thus and it is difficult to follow.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> Is it common to use the term in reference to dogs. Is it common in specific locations, the south, or the west? I have never heard of a dog referred thus and it is difficult to follow.


I've never heard it used in reference to dogs, only horses. The OP in this thread seems to be more of a horse person than a dog person and so is speaking the "lingo" that they know.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> Let me see if I can sum this up?
> 
> 1. There was this dog. It had limited registration. And somebody bred it because he was an awesome dog. You have a puppy out of this dog.
> 
> ...


 
uh blah blah blah I didnt read the rest as Ive already found out what I need to know and the breeding wasnt even close to intentional. the dog is indeed a very nice dog that if he had been of regualr registry I would of bought a registered, titled and health checked female and intentionally bred him (providing he got hip and elbow cleared and titled).

sorry more of my horse lingo slipped in


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I've never heard it used in reference to dogs, only horses. The OP in this thread seems to be more of a horse person than a dog person and so is speaking the "lingo" that they know.


thanks :thumbup:........


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Delilah's_Human said:


> uh blah blah blah I didnt read the rest as Ive already found out what I need to know and the breeding wasnt even close to intentional. the dog is indeed a very nice dog that if he had been of regualr registry I would of bought a registered, titled and health checked female and intentionally bred him (providing he got hip and elbow cleared and titled).
> 
> sorry more of my horse lingo slipped in


 
So now it sounds like you can perhaps chill a little towrd the AKC because you realize why it is a great idea that you cannot register your dog without the correct "papers". That sounds really great and we are all probably glad that you were able to learn that.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

codmaster said:


> So now it sounds like you can perhaps chill a little towrd the AKC because you realize why it is a great idea that you cannot register your dog without the correct "papers". That sounds really great and we are all probably glad that you were able to learn that.


actually this stemmed toward a misconception that I couldnt show with limited registration papers (which would really be stupid, hence my anger) and it turns out according to members that I can show in any AKC event I want as long as its not conformation. I dont want to show AKC I want to show UKC and Im sure with pet papers seeing as showing is allowed with them I could show UKC if I wished so I could easilly get another limited reg dog and show it UKC if I wanted  end of story thats what I wanted not to breed, never to breed. just to simpply do fun shows (or fun matches as I heard afew refer to them as)


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Delilah's_Human said:


> actually this stemmed toward a misconception that I couldnt show with limited registration papers (which would really be stupid, hence my anger) and it turns out according to members that I can show in any AKC event I want as long as its not conformation. I dont want to show AKC I want to show UKC and Im sure with pet papers seeing as showing is allowed with them I could show UKC if I wished so I could easilly get another limited reg dog and show it UKC if I wanted  end of story thats what I wanted not to breed, never to breed. just to simpply do fun shows (or fun matches as I heard afew refer to them as)


That is great!


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

codmaster said:


> That is great!


 
so yeah I feel like an idiot and yeah. 

off to go play adn read on the critique board as honestly thats where the best conformation information is


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

And now that you know that what you have is limited registration, you can start referring to your dog's papers with the appropriate name. Otherwise everytime you mention your dog has pet papers, there will need to be another upteen pages of back and forth posts to explain yourself, and the gist of what you really were trying to say will get lost.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You can show ANY dog at a AKC match, or puppy match. Or a match put on by a training class referred to as a fun match. They are cheap, and fun, and have ribbons or prizes. In fact, I showed Arwen and Heidi at a fun match years ago and took first place with Arwen and got 1/2 my entry fee back, and took 4th with Heidi -- big class, I got more than half my entry fee back. I went with $20, spent $10 on entrance fees, and got $12.50 back from placing with both dogs.


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## Delilah's_Human (Dec 31, 2010)

selzer said:


> You can show ANY dog at a AKC match, or puppy match. Or a match put on by a training class referred to as a fun match. They are cheap, and fun, and have ribbons or prizes. In fact, I showed Arwen and Heidi at a fun match years ago and took first place with Arwen and got 1/2 my entry fee back, and took 4th with Heidi -- big class, I got more than half my entry fee back. I went with $20, spent $10 on entrance fees, and got $12.50 back from placing with both dogs.


 
yeah I get it thanks


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If your dog is AKC limited reg and intact, you can actually get FULL UKC reg and show just like any other dog in the UKC ring. Personally I don't really like it but that's how it works, it's possible. Fill out their app, send in appropriate photos of the dog and copies of the pedigree and AKC reg.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Castlemaid said:


> And now that you know that what you have is limited registration, you can start referring to your dog's papers with the appropriate name.


Yeah, I agree. Definitely say "limited registration" and not "pet papers." The latter sounds like your dog is registered with a junk registry like Continental Kennel Club, APRI, etc.


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