# Positive/negative reinforcement with ecollar...



## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

I have a 16 week old puppy, who has been doing really well with training and all but he's starting to get defiant. I understand he's just being a puppy, but I also want to set some boundaries. I've been using clicker training and it's been effective with training, but I don't have any real method of negative reinforcement right now other then NO or AH, or a crate timeout(which I try not to make seem like punishment). 

I talked to a dog trainer who suggested using the ecollar for positive and negative reinforcement. Basically using tones/sounds as a predictor to what coming. Positive tone=treats, praise, etc... Negative tone=stop, or you get shocked... Obviously I wouldn't miss handle the ecollar, but I'm just curious if anyone has any experience or suggestions about this method of training and reinforcement?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

He's too young. There's so much spinning around in his little brain that the odds of you making the correct associations are too difficult. Use your voice, a leash, and some patience.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

To young. Teach him what you want and let him mature before throwing in corrections.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Responses in blue.



dhaney81 said:


> I have a *16 week old puppy*, who has been doing really well with training and all *but he's starting to get defiant.* No he is NOT getting defiant. *I understand he's just being a puppy *I don't think you do., but I also want to set some boundaries. I've been using clicker training and it's been effective with training, but* I don't have any real method of negative reinforcement right now other then NO or AH *and what exactly is the problem with this?, or a crate timeout(which I try not to make seem like punishment).
> 
> *I talked to a dog trainer who suggested using the ecollar for positive and negative reinforcement*. Fire him/her. Basically using tones/sounds as a predictor to what coming. Positive tone=treats, praise, etc... *Negative tone=stop, or you get shocked*... *Obviously I wouldn't miss handle the ecollar *Obviously, you will if you think your 16 week old puppy is defiant, and you want something that communicates to the pup, "Stop, or you get shocked!", but I'm just curious if anyone has any experience or suggestions about this method of training and reinforcement?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

*but he's starting to get defiant.* No he is NOT getting defiant. *I understand he's just being a puppy *I don't think you do.,


Wondering if you might elaborate on your responses....it might make it easier for the OP to gain some knowledge on how to proceed rather then view this forum in a negative light.


SuperG


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## TigervTeMar (Jan 4, 2014)

I used an ecollar but in the end returned it. I found it worked well in stopping bad behavior at that moment, which was very nice, but made my guy super jumpy later when no ecollar was used. It's definitely the lazy approach and I saw the pros and cons very quickly. The cons outweighed the pros by alot. 

If I'm trying to give directions (like stop digging in the yard!)and Tiger doesn't listen he gets crated straight away, or his meal gets postponed until after he starts listening. Try similar or listen to other peoples ideas on here. I would say even on a low setting the ecollar can make a dog reactive and jumpy, which is a big problem. and 16 weeks is way to young. He's going to be hot headed for awhile, I found the best thing for me was patience.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

SuperG said:


> *but he's starting to get defiant.* No he is NOT getting defiant. *I understand he's just being a puppy *I don't think you do.,
> 
> 
> Wondering if you might elaborate on your responses....it might make it easier for the OP to gain some knowledge on how to proceed rather then view this forum in a negative light.
> ...


 I was holding back SuperG. Sorry. But 16 week old puppies are NEVER defiant. They may not understand what you have asked them to do, they may shut down, they may try a bit of the theft, they may run around and not listen, they might bite or chew on things they oughtn't and they may potty 5 minutes after they were let out for a potty break. They are NEVER defiant. If you think your 4 month old puppy is defiant, you might as well call the pound and drop him off because your done. You cannot train defiance out of puppy at this age because it is not defiance and you will fail miserably trying to rid your dog of defiance. 

The OP has a great dog and the training, or over-training that they seem to be doing is effective for the most part. They can ruin a puppy if they start putting labels like defiant on it, and treating as such. All they have is No and Ah as negative markers and they want something stronger. Something that tells the dog, if I do that I am going to get shocked. This is not good. At sixteen weeks we want to build a bond of trust with our puppy. We want the puppy to understand that good things happen when we say YES, Good Boy, Awesome! And we want him to know that there are things that we won't allow. We want him to know we are consistent and fair. We want him to start following some basic commands and build up success at doing those commands with lots of praise, and some treats. 
We want to build a language between ourselves and the dog that will be reliable without gadgets or treats. 

I don't think the OP has realistic expectations for a puppy.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

This idea came from a trainer. I realize how young he is and how all that could effect him, which is why I posted a question about it and didn't just start shocking him. I do understand that he's just being a puppy, biting and running around all and just wants to play... I do exercise him pretty good through training, long walks, dog parks when it's empty running around, fetch, and games where he has to sniff out food (mental, physical, and nose work). But the trainer thought this might be a way for him to understand that this is what I like, and don't like. Maybe defiant wasn't the right word but what I meant is that before during training, walking, or whatever, he was a little more responsive to what I was asking for. Now he seems to be pulling more on the leash then before, and not doing the command I'm asking for. Like he's trying to figure out what he can get away with and what I'll do if he doesn't do what I ask. The AH and NO are fine, they just don't have anything behind them really. I understand that there are a lot of irresponsible dog owners and I'm honestly doing everything I can to not be one of them, and for my puppy to be on point and well behaved. I do know it's a process though, and that I need to be patient.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dhaney81 said:


> I have a 16 week old puppy, who has been doing really well with training and all but he's starting to get defiant. I understand he's just being a puppy, but I also want to set some boundaries. I've been using clicker training and it's been effective with training, but I don't have any real method of negative reinforcement right now other then NO or AH, or a crate timeout(which I try not to make seem like punishment).
> 
> I talked to a dog trainer who suggested using the ecollar for positive and negative reinforcement. Basically using tones/sounds as a predictor to what coming. Positive tone=treats, praise, etc... Negative tone=stop, or you get shocked... Obviously I wouldn't miss handle the ecollar, but I'm just curious if anyone has any experience or suggestions about this method of training and reinforcement?


1. continue using the clicker and positive training. At this age, you should be luring, shaping and teaching. If your puppy is being "defiant" then maybe he's bored with what you are doing or the treat you are rewarding with.

2. Use meals to train. They want to work for their food if they are hungry.

3. Don't beat training to death. 

4. There is no need for negative or punishment right now. Lure, shape, reward.

5. I put a prong on my puppy at about this age but it was NOT for correction. We paired it with food and use it lightly for stimulation. Instead of a "no" it was used as a "go". I have still, at 13 mths, not put an e-collar on for obedience. I started pairing the prong and e-collar in tracking as a signal to keep going. Again, very low stim. 

However, I would have to question a trainer that is putting an e-collar on a 16 week old puppy when a dog that age essentially does not know anything to be corrected for.

***** Training rule!!! You need to quit before he does!!!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Selzer,

Thank you for expanding on your original responses. Lots of food for thought in your last post for the OP


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dhaney81 said:


> This idea came from a trainer. I realize how young he is and how all that could effect him, which is why I posted a question about it and didn't just start shocking him. I do understand that he's just being a puppy, biting and running around all and just wants to play... I do exercise him pretty good through training, long walks, dog parks when it's empty running around, fetch, and games where he has to sniff out food (mental, physical, and nose work). But the trainer thought this might be a way for him to understand that this is what I like, and don't like. Maybe defiant wasn't the right word *but what I meant is that before during training, walking, or whatever, he was a little more responsive to what I was asking for. Now he seems to be pulling more on the leash then before, and not doing the command I'm asking for. *Like he's trying to figure out what he can get away with and what I'll do if he doesn't do what I ask. The AH and NO are fine, they just don't have anything behind them really. I understand that there are a lot of irresponsible dog owners and I'm honestly doing everything I can to not be one of them, and for my puppy to be on point and well behaved. I do know it's a process though, and that I need to be patient.


It's all normal. He is getting older and exploring his world. Work on your recall, be more interesting, play keep away games with him. Build your relationship so that he knows to pay attention to you and that when you all for him, he WANTS to come flying back to you.

The new "command" you need to work on is loose leash walking. It's just another thing you need to teach him. Teach him to release to the pressure of the collar.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

dhaney81 said:


> This idea came from a trainer. I realize how young he is and how all that could effect him, which is why I posted a question about it and didn't just start shocking him. I do understand that he's just being a puppy, biting and running around all and just wants to play... I do exercise him pretty good through training, long walks, dog parks when it's empty running around, fetch, and games where he has to sniff out food (mental, physical, and nose work). But the trainer thought this might be a way for him to understand that this is what I like, and don't like. Maybe defiant wasn't the right word but what I meant is that before during training, walking, or whatever, he was a little more responsive to what I was asking for. Now he seems to be pulling more on the leash then before, and not doing the command I'm asking for. Like he's trying to figure out what he can get away with and what I'll do if he doesn't do what I ask. The AH and NO are fine, they just don't have anything behind them really. I understand that there are a lot of irresponsible dog owners and I'm honestly doing everything I can to not be one of them, and for my puppy to be on point and well behaved. I do know it's a process though, and that I need to be patient.


 The dog could be losing interest in what you want because you are not clear enough and rewarding enough when he does what you want him to do. It is so hard for us humans not to to focus on the negative and try to eliminate the negative. 

Why is the dog not responding as well as he did before? Are we trying to do too much too soon? Is he getting bored -- too much repetition and not enough new stuff? Are my rewards not as enticing as the world around him. Is he not having fun during training. Am I not having fun? 

Lots of questions. Try not to put the fault on the pup. If you have a problem with the puppy, first ask what am I doing different, what could I do better, how am I communicating with him, for his his level. Do I need to back up, slow down, or move faster with him? Do I need a higher value treat or toy/reward. 

Build the bond of communication and trust. Do not ignore what he does right. Set him up to succeed and praise him for it. Do not set him up to fail so you can clobber him for it. Both are valid training methods that people have success with. But when you work with a dog with patience, consistency, and proper-age appropriate expectations, you rarely need more than a No or Ah for a negative marker if you set the dog up to succeed and praise/reward. If you set him up so you can let him know what you don't want, guaranteed you will need more than No or ah!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> It's all normal. He is getting older and exploring his world. Work on your recall, be more interesting, play keep away games with him. Build your relationship so that he knows to pay attention to you and that when you all for him, he WANTS to come flying back to you.
> 
> The new "command" you need to work on is loose leash walking.


I was talked into this mentality quite awhile ago...I was so uptight about a strict walk with the dog in a tight heeling position....somebody mentioned that I might loosen up and make the walk more "fun"...allowing the dog full use of the lead...I did..and that evolved into using a 30 ft. lead. As long as the dog maintained a "loose leash" behavior, she was allowed full length. The suggestion to do as such was a good one.

However, I will say...I chose the wrong verbal cue of "loose leash"....it's easy to trip on my tongue saying that command...say "loose leash" rapidly 3-5 times in a row. Granted, I wasn't repeating the command as such....but there were times where it was a tongue twister. I should have chosen the word " rutabaga" as the verbal cue for the privilege of full lead with no forging...


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

lol I meant the behavior! I didn't literally mean the command as "loose leash". I think I tell mine "walk" but it's so rare that I'm walking them where they need to be next to me that I"m not sure what I say. It most likely starts with a swear word.

Here's my idea of "loose leash"


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

swear words work..as long as they are consistent with the behavior....LOL

Yes, that would be my definition of "loose leash"


SuperG


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

works as well as any e-collar! lol


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

SuperG, thanks for asking for some real information and backing me up so I wasn't just getting ripped by selzer. Also, I think I've been the same way with walking and being uptight about a nice heeling walk right next to me. I think Caesar Milan got the idea in my head that the dog should be next to me, and never really in front of me.

JaxO8, my dog's name is Jax too. I really appreciate all the good ideas. I'm curious about getting more info on how you use the prong collar and ecollar to keep going or "GO"... Do they stop to smell something, and you use it to say go, or keep going?

Selzer, thanks for the quality ripping. I can respect that and I understand where it's coming from because I'm sure there are a lot of irresponsible dog owners on here, and the thought of shocking a 16 week old puppy isn't a pleasant one, I know. My expectations are probably a little high at times but I think we all have those moments, specially when we feel like we're taking all the right steps, or so we think. Thanks for the reminder of things to think about when working with my dog. I've had dogs in the past but this is my first german shepherd, so I'm still learning a lot.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

dhaney81 said:


> I have a 16 week old puppy, who has been doing really well with training and all but he's starting to get defiant. I understand he's just being a puppy, but I also want to set some boundaries. I've been using clicker training and it's been effective with training, but I don't have any real method of negative reinforcement right now other then NO or AH, or a crate timeout(which I try not to make seem like punishment).
> 
> I talked to a dog trainer who suggested using the ecollar for positive and negative reinforcement. Basically using tones/sounds as a predictor to what coming. Positive tone=treats, praise, etc...* Negative tone=stop, or you get shocked..*. Obviously I wouldn't miss handle the ecollar, but I'm just curious if anyone has any experience or suggestions about this method of training and reinforcement?


Lots of good advice from other people here.  

Here are some of my thoughts.

Personally i find this, " Negative tone=stop, or you get shocked." A super unhelpful and not beneficial way to train a dog with e-collar, for you or the dog especially. To the point where it really could become a problem in the wrong hands using this method, and a lot of the time i seen it used this way, it basically becomes abuse. Because they do it at high levels, and the dog is not knowing what to do, or how to turn off the pain. There is no guidance in WHAT you do WANT them to do. The e-collar is a very powerful tool, and should not be used lightly. 
Here is a link to my thread about it, in the first session, _with a trainer_. I'm not going to lie, the e-collar has been the most helpful tool i have ever used. My dog and i have a really amazing relationship, which also helps. The e-collar, when used correctly, can really generate a lot of information and clearness of what it is that you want them to do. It opens up for communication i find, so really it helps open up a whole new door of understanding. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...session-e-collar-trainer-today-3-hours-4.html

I would keep clicker training, as the pup grows up make sure you are a fun, consistent, clear and firm leader. 
For training now, you can shape behaviors, capturing them and rewarding them- to teach them. (using the clicker for this is super helpful!) You can use lures to guide them and eventually get them off the lures, using clicker etc.
I've been told that the biggest "punishment" you can give your dog, is really removing yourself or ignoring them. Sometimes removing them, such as a time out. But it doesn't even have to be for a long time. Being consistent is the most important part of it. 


Enjoy your new bundle of joy and teeth!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dhaney81 said:


> JaxO8, my dog's name is Jax too. I really appreciate all the good ideas. I'm curious about getting more info on how you use the prong collar and ecollar to keep going or "GO"... Do they stop to smell something, and you use it to say go, or keep going?



I'll send you a PM later. Remind me. I'm not sure I can explain it in text properly.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

dhaney81 said:


> SuperG, thanks for asking for some real information and backing me up so I wasn't just getting ripped by selzer. Also, I think I've been the same way with walking and being uptight about a nice heeling walk right next to me. I think Caesar Milan got the idea in my head that the dog should be next to me, and never really in front of me.
> 
> JaxO8, my dog's name is Jax too. I really appreciate all the good ideas. I'm curious about getting more info on how you use the prong collar and ecollar to keep going or "GO"... Do they stop to smell something, and you use it to say go, or keep going?
> 
> Selzer, thanks for the quality ripping. I can respect that and I understand where it's coming from because I'm sure there are a lot of irresponsible dog owners on here, and the thought of shocking a 16 week old puppy isn't a pleasant one, I know. My expectations are probably a little high at times but I think we all have those moments, specially when we feel like we're taking all the right steps, or so we think. Thanks for the reminder of things to think about when working with my dog. I've had dogs in the past but this is my first german shepherd, so I'm still learning a lot.


I don't think you got a ripping and if you think about how you responded to feeling you were being praised and how you responded to feeling you were being criticized, so why not treat your puppy the way you like to be treated? You have shown interest and enthusiasm in reading Jax's posts and are learning just as well with positive behavior shaping, and so can your puppy. The fact that he's a GSD puppy only makes him easier to train. Mild reminders to redirect, redirection, shaping, all those things are getting good results for you so keep doing them. Anyone (literally) can call themselves a dog trainer. 

Really this was all that needed to be said below, but glad to see all the teaching that happened beyond. You can try the silky leash method too: Silky Leash Video – How to Train Leash Walking | Ahimsa Dog Blog which is like in horses - people who are light in working the reins can get some amazing results. 


> Steve Strom He's too young. There's so much spinning around in his little brain that the odds of you making the correct associations are too difficult. Use your voice, a leash, and some patience.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

dhaney81, welcome to the forum and GOOD FOR YOU for having common sense when getting thru all our suggestions and comments.

I'm with the others, NO E-COLLAR for this puppy! 

Your main goals should be raising a happy and CONFIDENT puppy (not a crazy stictly obeying obedient PUPPY  ). Best ways are to work on tons of engagement training, teaching tricks and socializing the HECK in any all places you can think of (met a horse lately? How about a camel? People in walkers/wheelchairs/skateboards?) 

Great place to read up and REALLY focus the next few months with training is on ---> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...191183-top-training-expectations-puppies.html

I like some of Cesar Milan's stuff but remember, he's dealing with CRAZY out of control or aggressive dogs that have many many issues. You have a normal puppy that can be cut alot of slack because they are a puppy!

I never never never walk my dogs in 'heel' unless I'm training them or have some super controlling need for them for a brief time on a walk (crazy dog approaching and I can't get away?). That said I don't want them dragging me down the street. Good compromise during the first year when I am more lenient is a Gentle Leader Harness type thing. They do a great job fitting them in DOG/Puppy classes! Just saying


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Jean, those are some really good videos on working with the leash. Definitely going to have to work with my dog Jax like that. It seems to be effective, yet simple. I've started to, as soon as he pulls I've been stopping immediately and having him come to me, and then click/treat when he comes. I also click/treat when his head is right under my hand, nice and close. Those two things have helped a lot. 
Maggie, I have been doing the best I can in regards to socializing. He's really good with people, but he definitely needs more work with other dogs. If he sees another dog on a walk he wants to go full speed in the opposite direction. I've had him meet friends dogs, and he's curious/friendly with them but it's obvious that he needs to be socialized more. Friends dogs are not very well socialized either and seem to get a little snappy with him, while he tries to lick them or play.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Your dog does not need to meet other dogs. He just needs to be able to control himself around them and be mannerly. If he's trying to get away, you are to close for his threshhold. Have you tried using LAT? or BAT? Look those two behavior modification methods up.

If your friends dogs are snapping at him, then don't let him play with them. He's learning from them!


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

VTgirl, thanks for the link to that thread. There's definitely some value in the shock collar, but it has to me done the right way and at the right age. I'm still learning about shaping behaviors/tricks. I've been luring and click/treating, but I'm going to have to look more into shaping. I know that it's rewarding smaller steps at a time, to get to your ultimate goal, but if anyone has a link about shaping or video I'd really like to learn more.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Jax08 said:


> *Your dog does not need to meet other dogs. He just needs to be able to control himself around them and be mannerly. * If he's trying to get away, you are to close for his threshhold. Have you tried using LAT? or BAT? Look those two behavior modification methods up.
> 
> If your friends dogs are snapping at him, then don't let him play with them. He's learning from them!


I would take the sentence above and instead say (for my dogs) 'My dogs do not have to love and PLAY with all dogs, but they do need to control themselves around them and be mannerly'.

And the only way this works is by having them near/around/with alot of other dogs that are reliable and dependable to NOT go over the top to scare or bite. My friends with dogs that don't 'love' other dogs can still go on leashed walks with us. Walking all in the same direction and not allowing them to interact until they are ready gives them time to get used to each other and get thru the initial sometimes 'over the top' initial greetings which cause incidents.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Lat and bat? Lease and basic training? He's getting his last round of booster shots next week and then I'm planning of taking him too a training course so he can socialize a little more. 
As far as bolting the other direct, it seems to happen more if a dog barks at him/us. We'll just be standing there and if a dog walks by from like 50 ft and barks, he'll try to bolt the other direction. He seems to be very submissive at this point.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

dhaney81 said:


> Jean, those are some really good videos on working with the leash. Definitely going to have to work with my dog Jax like that. It seems to be effective, yet simple. I've started to, as soon as he pulls I've been stopping immediately and having him come to me, and then click/treat when he comes. I also click/treat when his head is right under my hand, nice and close. Those two things have helped a lot.
> Maggie, I have been doing the best I can in regards to socializing. He's really good with people, but he definitely needs more work with other dogs. If he sees another dog on a walk he wants to go full speed in the opposite direction. I've had him meet friends dogs, and he's curious/friendly with them but it's obvious that he needs to be socialized more. Friends dogs are not very well socialized either and seem to get a little snappy with him, while he tries to lick them or play.


When my youngest was 10 weeks old, I started rewarding him every time he was at my side on a walk. He was the easiest dog to leash train. There are times as he got older that I had to increase my rate of reward to keep him there longer. And then we have since added a prong. But at 16 weeks I was still rewarding the behavior I wanted to see and I wasn't expecting him to walk super nice for an extended walk.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2011/11/lat-hat-bat-what-is-that/


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

dhaney81 said:


> I have a 16 week old puppy, who has been doing really well with training and all but he's starting to get defiant.


As you've already been advised, 16 weeks is too young. Just about all the manufacturers, and I agree with them, say that 6 months is the minimum age for using an Ecollar. As to _"starting to get defiant"_ ... NO DOG is DEFIANT. That's a human construct that does not exist in dogs. He just has his own agenda in life and his needs/desires are different than yours. 



dhaney81 said:


> I talked to a dog trainer who suggested using the ecollar for positive and negative reinforcement. Basically using tones/sounds as a predictor to what coming. Positive tone=treats, praise, etc... Negative tone=stop, or you get shocked... Obviously I wouldn't miss handle the ecollar, but I'm just curious if anyone has any experience or suggestions about this method of training and reinforcement?


I'm not a fan of using the Ecollar this way. It's too complicated for most folks, they get confused and start giving the wrong signals, resulting in confusion which leads to unreliability. I prefer to use the tone/vibration for commands when the dog may happen to be out of earshot. 

I also think that those folks who use signals from the Ecollar as a warning or a predictor are in−effect giving double commands. If you say "sit" and the dog does not sit, it seems to me that giving a tone/vibe is the about same as repeating the command. Soon "the command" becomes the word PLUS the tone/vibe. You won't get compliance unless BOTH are used.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

TigervTeMar said:


> I used an ecollar but in the end returned it. I found it worked well in stopping bad behavior at that moment, which was very nice, but made my guy super jumpy later when no ecollar was used. It's definitely the lazy approach and I saw the pros and cons very quickly. The cons outweighed the pros by alot.


I'd bet that you never taught the dog what the stim meant. I'd bet that you put the Ecollar on the dog and that when he performed the _"bad behavior"_ you hit the button. I'd also bet that it was set at a level that was too high for that dog at that moment. THAT is how you get jumpy behavior. 

If you start out by teaching the dog what the stim means and work at proper levels of stim you NEVER get "jumpy" behavior. 

You created the doggie equivalent of "superstitions" and he had no idea what caused the stim, how to stop it, or what it meant. This teaches the dog that the stim is random, that he's not in control of it, and that it hurts. This is not an Ecollar problem, it's a user problem. 



TigervTeMar said:


> * I would say even on a low setting the ecollar can make a dog reactive and jumpy, * which is a big problem. and 16 weeks is way to young. He's going to be hot headed for awhile, I found the best thing for me was patience.


I'll disagree. I've put Ecollars on well over 4,000 dogs and NEVER got a dog that was _"reactive [or] jumpy."_ Use a tool improperly, no matter what it is, and you'll probably get bad results. 

Patience, by itself, has never trained a single dog.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

LouCastle said:


> I'd bet that you never taught the dog what the stim meant. I'd bet that you put the Ecollar on the dog and that when he performed the _"bad behavior"_ you hit the button. I'd also bet that it was set at a level that was too high for that dog at that moment. THAT is how you get jumpy behavior.
> 
> If you start out by teaching the dog what the stim means and work at proper levels of stim you NEVER get "jumpy" behavior.
> 
> ...


Awesome reply. Has many good points that are applicable to things besides ecollar. Humanizing behavior, superstitious behavior and how easy it is to develop in a dog/pup, proper levels of correction and at a proper age, tone is like a second command, handlers must know their limitations in coordination, timing etc and use methods that they are capable of carrying out just like trainers should not be showing handlers methods that they know the person does not have the timing or experience to do. I am not being critical of the OP because these are all common problems that we see in dog training.


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## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

Awesome stuff LouCastle, thank you. Defiant wasn't the right word to select in that statement, as it has been pointed out. More of just trying to find out what will happen if he doesn't do something I ask. I do see the ecollar as being a great tool down the road, but I will be making sure that I implement it the right way. Using tones/sounds seemed interesting, but I get what you're saying about possible confusion with using them.


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