# Is Food Aggression common?



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I keep seeing posts about food aggression. It's really a common theme!

Are GSD's prone to guarding food? 

I have owned Collies, Boxers, Shepherds and mutts. I have never had a problem with food aggression or any aggression. DH will let Banshee get away with growling at him over getting her nails trimmed or getting her up to go outside and back off because "oh she'll bite you". I don't have that problem with her but I don't let her get away with that.

Is it the owner?!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Neither of my dogs are food aggressive, and that is saying a lot because my GSD has some aggression issues but food isn't one of them.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

In my experience, no. I've owned 3, fostered over twenty, and my in-laws currently have two and have had 4 more in the time I've known them. None of those over thirty dogs were food aggressive.

The thing you don't see on a message forum is posts from the thousands of people whose dogs aren't food aggressive. You see the few that are, concentrated all in one place.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My GSDs are not food aggressive, I can pet them while they eat, I can stick my hand in their bowl. I can hold their paws, they are fine with getting their nails trimmed.

I did have a food aggressive, toy aggressive, dog aggressive 1.5 year old GSD/Husky mix, I did not raise him though and I only had him for 4 months.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've never had a food aggressive dog. I don't play the take away game as some do to 'train', but have taken food away if they steal it from another dog.

Before my dogs eat, they have to do something to earn it....once they've earned it, it is theirs to enjoy.


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

Never had the issue either. We are a 1 dog home, kids are older, he's fed on a routine, we don't mess with him when he eats, but he will eat with all of us walking around him, dinner being made, whatever...


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

With the aggression issues I have with Woolf, thankfully resource guarding isn't one of them.

He was feral when we got him and using food by hand feeding was one of the methods I took advantage of till he accepted me. After that, using a method I know many here seriously dislike, I'd remove his bowl, add bits of meat or veggies left from dinner and give it back. 

I'm guessing that transferred over to toys, I can do the same thing. When it's time to be put up, he doesn't give me any flak about it


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Twyla said:


> After that, using a method I know many here seriously dislike, I'd remove his bowl, add bits of meat or veggies left from dinner and give it back.


But by doing that, you were giving him back something better so in essence...trading up!


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

I deal with food agression/resource guarding between animals not between animal & human. 
Apache will bare teeth & growl at the other dogs even if they aren't too close, when I see him looking for a victim I yell at him and he looks at me and lowers his lips as if to say "I wasn't doing anything."


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Jax08 said:


> But by doing that, you were giving him back something better so in essence...trading up!


You know, you are right, hadn't looked at it like that  I just know I didn't want food and toy (sticks, socks etc etc ) aggression to deal with along with the HA/DA I am working on.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I've never had a food aggressive dog. I don't play the take away game as some do to 'train', but have taken food away if they steal it from another dog.
> 
> Before my dogs eat, they have to do something to earn it....once they've earned it, it is theirs to enjoy.


Ditto. 

Never had a problem with any of that either.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> I keep seeing posts about food aggression. It's really a common theme!
> 
> Are GSD's prone to guarding food?
> 
> ...


 
I think it is a combination of the particular dog and the owner (and others) treatment of it. Some dogs will never be food aggressive while others with an owner that lets them get away with it will develop that behavior.


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## mysweetkaos (Sep 20, 2011)

Sherman (our mongrel mix) has had a couple of incidents with toys...which we work on. 

As far as food though, no guarding with humans. Although Sherman eats in his crate, so once Kaos is done eating he will go over towards S's crate and Sherman will hurry up and gobble down all his food before K gets there. I am sure the 2 of them would not ever be able to "share" a food bowl.....which is fine. Although as far as with us, neither dog seems to care where we are or what we are doing. My 2 yr old has called out "crate" in the middle of K's breakfast before and he stopped eating, turned around and went to his crate.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Our dogs are not food aggressive, but we had a few come in as puppies who were. 
I hand fed them until it was not an issue any longer.

I generally do not mind about food aggression, if I had a toddler I could see worrying, but to me, the earth will still rotate if my dog in fact doesn't or all the sudden didn't want me to remove his or her bowl during eating.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Thankfully, I never had to deal with food aggression with all 3 dogs.

When my dog eat, I sit with him, I pet him while he's eating, I don't try to take his bowl or anything like that. It's a positive experience for both of us.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Honestly, I think it would be a lot less common if people would quit messing around with the dogs food.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, I think it would be a lot less common if people would quit messing around with the dogs food.


YES!!!!!!!!!!
They panic then and think they're going to lose it!!
If you do_ anything at all_ with their food, add some cooked chicken or turkey to their bowl of plain hard dry kibble while they are eating, so they associate your coming over with GOOD THINGS!!

I never fiddled with my dog's food while they are eating so they don't freak out and think they are losing it.

Difficult concept for people to understand I suppose??

I mean...I think people _hear_ things along the way such as "you have to be able to take their food", and don't even get what that means so they yank the dog's food away just to see if they can, stressing the dog out?
They do the same thing with laying a puppy on it's back. I cannot tell you how may people come to adopt, will meet a puppy and throw it over on it's back. I ask them, "why are you doing that", they don't even know why! They just heard you're supposed to be able to do it! When I explain to them that you have to build a relationship with a dog or puppy for it to trust you enough to lay over on it's back for you, they are blown away. 
One of my most submissive, sweetest dogs with excellent bite inhibition won't lay on her back. 
So friggin' what??
It's not like they are plotting to take over the world if they freak out when you take their food, or won't lay on their backs, or any of the other idiotic notions people get.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

I always cringe when I hear people say they always just sit and pet their dogs at meal time just to get them used to it. Or put there hands in the bowl for the same reason. With certain dogs who are confident enough and laid back they will not care also dogs who are very respectful probably won't care but their are a lot of dogs who as time goes on are going start getting more and more concerned about what is going on.

I think the relationship with the people, the genetics of the dog and the environment are all going to play a role in whether a dog becomes food aggressive.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree, Clyde. I think dogs who are insecure are the ones that fiddling with them at mealtimes makes them worse. 

What's funny about all this is people claim they need to be able to take stuff away so in case the dog eats something dangerous, they can get it out of their mouth.
If I see my dogs eating something dangerous, they are scared sh*tless when I freak out, waving my arms and running over, grabbing them by the muzzle and pry it open, they'd never think to bite me because mama's a madwoman at that particular moment and they know _something_ bad or significant is happening! Usually they open their mouth in shock or amazement and the problem is over LOL


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

We have never had food aggression problems...nor most of the aggression issues that are often discussed on these forums.
We don't expect our dogs to "share" their food or toys with each other....if one dogs shows any form of "possession" with objects...it simply is "educated" that the behavior is not acceptable....or the dog is removed from the situation.
Unacceptable aggression is not tolerated....so I find it very hard to "understand" many of the owner/dog situations......especially when it comes to dogs that have been owned since puppy-hood.
Food aggression is just another form of unacceptable behavior (either a result of environment or pack instability)......properly prohibiting this type of behavior is a must in my opinion.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We have a rule here, if you guard it, you lose it. For instance...our couch. If one dog decides (with another dog) to guard a spot on the couch, they are removed from the couch and not allowed back up for the rest of the day or whatever. There's dog beds on the floor they can lay on.
If they guard a toy, the toy is removed. I have never taken a toy from one dog and given it to another. That'd be foolish and create more stress.
Common sense must prevail. 
We don't give treats unless the pack is separated properly. When we feed, we feed 2-3 dogs at a time so we can manage them and they aren't getting into each others dishes. We don't make dogs share food or treat items. 
They must share toys and space. Even nylabones are lying around the front room and nobody guards them because if they do they lose them. But I won't throw out a bully stick (for instance) and expect them all to share that. 

For anyone who has raised a litter of puppies from birth-8 weeks you'd see how natural and normal resource guarding is. 
Because you go pick up a puppy at 8 weeks of age and freak out because it guards, that's all it knows. If it doesn't eat, it dies. We've taken in litters who've been dumped in the boonies and when someone found them they'd had to scrounge for food and deal with the fact there's sometimes not enough to go around. They'd literally die in that situation so they had above average guarding even towards siblings (to the point of being dangerous to feed together). After they were separated and saw they'd get enough to eat they calmed down and relaxed about their food.

There's multiple ways to help puppies and dogs move on past guarding, and relax about their food, but yanking their food away is not one of them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> If they guard a toy, the toy is removed.
> .


I disagree with that approach for resource guarding. I did that with Jax. Didn't correct HER just took the toy away. The second time, she growled at Sierra. Took it away again. The third time, she never made a sound and attacked Sierra.

I think you need to be very careful that the dog doesn't relate not getting what they want to the other dog. Jax somehow made the connection that it was Sierra's fault she wasn't getting what she wanted so her behavior escalated.

Now...she gets my full attention and at the very least a Leave It so she knows it's her behavior that is wrong.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> YES!!!!!!!!!!
> They panic then and think they're going to lose it!!
> If you do_ anything at all_ with their food, add some cooked chicken or turkey to their bowl of plain hard dry kibble while they are eating, so they associate your coming over with GOOD THINGS!!
> 
> ...


 
Tell it to the 3yo kid who is bitten in the face because he happened to go next to the "doggie" while he was eating or chewing his favorite toy/bone!

No reason whatsoever for any family dog to act aggressively to any family member or child just because they have their food or a toy oer a bone. The dog very quickly can learn that they are simply not allowed to act that way - no ifs, ans, or buts!

Would you let your dog poop in the house - of course not! Even if it is an instinct of a dog to poop wherever they feel like it? Of course not! Why don't they? BECAUSE THEY HAVE LEARNED NOT TO! Any normal dog can learn NOT to be food/toy aggressive!

Case is closed! Much safer around the dog as well!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> We have never had food aggression problems...nor most of the aggression issues that are often discussed on these forums.
> We don't expect our dogs to "share" their food or toys with each other....if one dogs shows any form of "possession" with objects...it simply is "educated" that the behavior is not acceptable....or the dog is removed from the situation.
> Unacceptable aggression is not tolerated....so I find it very hard to "understand" many of the owner/dog situations......especially when it comes to dogs that have been owned since puppy-hood.
> Food aggression is just another form of unacceptable behavior (either a result of environment or pack instability)......properly prohibiting this type of behavior is a must in my opinion.


Robin, same here. It's hard to understand. Sometimes I wonder if it is either blown way out of proportion or truly as severe as the owner describes it.

Without seeing it yourself it's really hard to understand. That being said, yesterday I met a German Shepherd that came out of the NYCC KILL Shelter in Manhattan. He was kept in the backyard with little to no contact to humans. The behaviorist he is with has turned that dog around in just a couple of days. He is american bred. I am amazed by HOW MUCH DRIVE that dog has. He's been very good with meeting me, I played with him, got him even to tug with me, then let go off the toy. He went and took it to the couch. I knew exactly what was going to happen next. 
I walked towards the couch. He started growling, I triggered his possessive side. The behaviorist, had no issues to take the toy away from him. Me, the new person, however, dared to look at it. He warned me. Next thing I know I had him on my arm BUT he didn't bite. He simply grabbed my arm and growled. He gave me another warning, not to get any closer. 

I ignored him. Glanced at the toy, again a growl. Any other trusted person, could walk over to that toy and take it away. I was the stranger, the new person, not to be trusted, he warned me, I ignored the warning, got a second more severe warning but no correction. 

15 minutes later he was retrieving the toy for me. 

He is a nice dog. If that had happened with any other person than somebody who is experienced and not knowing what his background is, that dog would have deemed aggressive. I knew what I'd trigger. I knew what his reaction would be just from watching his body language. I knew when I approached the couch that he would do what he did. 

That being said, I would have never expected that much drive in an American "pet-line" dog. From what I can tell, he's not a soft dog either. He's definitely not something for an inexperienced handler and would do great in Schutzhund or any other working venue. 

If that had been anyone else, I bet you we would have seen a topic about how aggressive possessive that dog is without any regards to what is actually going on with that dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I knew exactly what was going to happen next.


Bingo. Anticipating and reading dog body language could prevent just about every bite in the world from ever occurring. 



> If that had been anyone else, I bet you we would have seen a topic about how aggressive possessive that dog is without any regards to what is actually going on with that dog.


And again, right on - people see and interpret things to suit themselves, never once realizing they probably just _caused_ a situation they must now fix appropriately??


Cod -


> Why is it so hard for you to understand that a dog can (easily!) and should be trained not to believe that they can and must defend their stuff from their owners?


Why do you always insist I have no clue what I'm talking about? 
Do you not think that taking in and rehoming 150 dogs per year for the past 4 yrs. (not to mention living with my own 7-9 dogs) has caused me to be aware of every little thing that can go wrong in a dog's life? 

Why do you have this notion that I have not trained a dog, any dog, foster or my own, to not be possessive?

Why do you feel yanking their food away is necessary to "teach them who is boss"? Unless you have some superior method of doing so, which you've never once explained?


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## meldleistikow (Oct 24, 2011)

I have never had a food aggressive Shepherd (5) or any other dog we had growing up. They will guard food from other dogs but not people. They are always fed on schedule so I don't think they feel like they won't get fed.

I do practice taking away toys from dogs with my kids and trade for a treat. I don't want to take the chance that they will bite a kid for grabbing their toy. As for things like bully sticks or other special treats, I crate them or watch them very carefully, and take it away when I can't watch them. They are just like kids. If a kids gets a brand new toy, they are likely to smack their siblings if they try to take it from them.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

alrighty...do you think we could have a thread on "aggression" without a huge squabble on who is right and who is wrong. If you want to do that then please take it to a PM because I am sick of seeing the same argument in 4 different threads.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

See....to me...the behavior you just described from an "un-known" dog to a stranger is acceptable....and can be understood & eliminated quickly.
Aggression from dogs to their "familiars"......that is not something that I can comprehend.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It would be nice indeed. 
I'm tired of someone finding fault with every single thing I type, despite explaining it like 400 different ways and having _other_ people even chime in with an explanation of the same thing I'm saying 

I do think what we're seeing is that owners unintentionally are causing the guarding then get angry and mad at the dog, for a situation they themselves created.
I'm dealing in fact right now with a dog in an adopters home that has happened this exact same way. The dog's on the couch and nobody can move it off there! WTF??? Why is it on the couch in the 1st place?? 
Same exact thing. They caused the problem and now want to get rid of the dog. 
*sigh*


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree, Robin. 

I can see it in my house with DH and Banshee. The first time she growled at me, it sounded like the voice of God coming down on her. She never did it again. But he backs off and talks to her in a baby voice so she learned that she can get away with it.

I have never had any dog I've had show any kind of behavior I could deem aggressive more than once and those dogs were all that we got as adults, not as puppies.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> It would be nice indeed.
> I'm tired of someone finding fault with every single thing I type, despite explaining it like 400 different ways and having _other_ people even chime in with an explanation of the same thing I'm saying


Then stop taking it as a personal attack and stop letting the other person engage you. If you think it is a personal attack then report it and deal with it in a PM.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's an idea!

:lightbulb:


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> That being said, I would have never expected that much drive in an American "pet-line" dog. From what I can tell, he's not a soft dog either. He's definitely not something for an inexperienced handler and would do great in Schutzhund or any other working venue.


I believe it. My American dog who got his Sch3 was medium-high in drive and very hard to the helper--very, very responsive to me. He didn't have the bite strength (just plain didn't have the muscles in his skull) that you would have expected on a dog his size and there were other less-than-ideal aspects--when you have a dog that is bred for generations for something like schutzhund there are many little elements that just click smoothly in training. But nerve strength and drive and hardness--he had plenty of that.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> See....to me...the behavior you just described from an "un-known" dog to a stranger is acceptable....and can be understood & eliminated quickly.
> Aggression from dogs to their "familiars"......that is not something that I can comprehend.


Yes, same here. The family he was with apparently dumped him for "allergies" and aggression, if I understood correctly. However, he is a very nice dog with lots of working potential. I think many people just don't know what is going on with their dog in the first place and completely misunderstand and misread their Signals.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've never had a dog who guarded resources from me. But I fully expect them to guard bones, toys, and food from each other--that is normal inter-dog behavior for GSDs. If you want a GSD with drive for a toy, it's going to come with some degree of possession/guarding--most GSDs' prey drive is linked to the desire to have and own the object. This is best handled by managing access to toys and other high-value objects so they are in secure locations (their crate, for example) when the high-value objects are available--then the dog is less likely to feel the need to act aggressively to guard their prize.

As far as food, I've seen a (very) few puppies that resource guarded against humans at 12 weeks of age--I suspect that nothing will prevent these types of dogs from resource guarding as adults. 

But, in general, if you have a good relationship with your dog, he/she will not guard things from you. So if this is a problem, work on the relationship and see if the guarding doesn't stop on its own. If they are guarding from the kids in the household--work on the dog's overall relationship, not specifically the guarding. If they are guarding from strangers/unfamiliar people... I'd say this is to some degree, correct behavior for a GSD--as Mrs. K described.

In general, I think about it as "I want my dogs to be strong and confident, so I don't want to undermine their confidence or pit my strength against theirs." I want them to see me as on their team--and as their team leader. So, I avoid putting them in situations where their only option is to submit/capitulate or oppose me--try to give them options that don't back them into a corner. And create a history of trust between you that the dog can fall back on in a moment of crises/urgency.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Great post, Christine!



> If you want a GSD with drive for a toy, it's going to come with some degree of possession/guarding


And thank you for explaining Jax to me! She could care less about her food. I've seen the cat and Sierra stick their faces in her bowl while she's eating...but don't mess with her toys! lol


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

the problems on these threads come from the ajectives and adverbs used to describe different ways of training.

*Yank their food away.*

*Messing with their food*.

I train my dogs/puppies that indeed I can be around them, move their dish or pick it up. I will hand feed them from their dish. I pet them and praise them while doing this. I don't trade.

It is not how many would do it but it certainly is not how a lot of people describe this type of training. They use words like the examples above.
It has worked for me for many years so I don't really care how others do it.

If people on these and aggression threads would stop using far out examples of what they perceive to be the othe side, we could have meaningful discussions of different ways to accomplish end results.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Bingo. Anticipating and reading dog body language could prevent just about every bite in the world from ever occurring.
> And again, right on - people see and interpret things to suit themselves, never once realizing they probably just _caused_ a situation they must now fix appropriately??
> Cod -
> Why do you always insist I have no clue what I'm talking about?
> ...


msv - one last time!

IF everyone knew and understood dog language, it would of course be easy. BUT understand that MOST people do not - thus the need to train the dog to behave like it should and NOT like it was in a dog pack (to protect it's food, etc.)

*What about the child or visitor to your house?* If they don't understand dog language and wander too close to a dog who is eating - too bad if they get bit - they should have known better, is that the way you feel? (Or "he would never bite anyone!" "He is just warning them! - right?)

I do not know or care what you know or how you train or not train your dogs - really doesn't matter. As I have said many many times - everyone can train their dogs or not, however they want to. So go for it.

*Are you "Boss " of your dogs? Can you tell them how to behave?* That is up to you to decide, of course. 

I really am of the opinion that I am the boss of my dog. And he really doesn't seem too unhappy with the whole deal, or at least he has never complained that I know of.

"Yanking their food away" - that sounds really mean the way you describe it, doesn't it? I better not let Baron read this post - he might get really upset with me. After all, he thinks it is a big game when I remove his bowl for a few seconds or when I grab the Bully stick from his very jaws and hide it behind my back for a few seconds and he has to wait calmly till i give him back either thing. What animal abuse!

And all just because he can be trusted around anyone while he is chewing or even eating.

Finally, who ever said that I think that you have no clue about anything? Not I.
I just expressed my own opinion about how i raise my dogs and why I don't want and will not tolerate an unsafe dog around family, friends and esp. around any children.

If you disagree with my way and reasoning then fine, - you raise your dogs the way you want to and if food/toy possesivness is ok with you for your dogs behavior - cool!

Later - time to go annoy my dog by pulling something he wants from his very big white teeth!


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## LukasGSD (May 18, 2011)

Jaxon is NOT food aggressive. I can pet him, stick my hand in, take it away Jaxon has toy drive and is in no way aggressive to the other dogs over toys, food, or space. In fact, cierny can walk right up and join him. Though I generally don't allow this because she is pushy around food and if she were to walk up to any of the other dogs it would be a totally different story.

Lukas IS food aggressive. Can't touch him at all. Now I could take it away but I have to be smart and fast about it without hesitation or he will act up. Will growl and protect his food and crate around other dogs. I don't bother him when he's eating HIS food. If he had something he shouldn't I can take it away no problem. But while he's eating I have no need to touch his food. He eats away from everyone else and I havn't got much to worry about.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

I don't think so - it's never been a problem with any of our dogs.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I've never had a dog who guarded resources from me. But I fully expect them to guard bones, toys, and food from each other--that is normal inter-dog behavior for GSDs. If you want a GSD with drive for a toy, it's going to come with some degree of possession/guarding--most GSDs' prey drive is linked to the desire to have and own the object. This is best handled by managing access to toys and other high-value objects so they are in secure locations (their crate, for example) when the high-value objects are available--then the dog is less likely to feel the need to act aggressively to guard their prize.
> 
> A.


Agree with all of this. Our dogs do not guard from us but will guard from eachother. They have learned to respect eachother so it is not a problem. Benny is the alpha but will not try to take food or toys from the others unless they walk away from it.

When young children are at my house I am very careful of how they behave around the dogs, and if the dogs are going to be given high value toys or food it is done in their crates.


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Tell it to the 3yo kid who is bitten in the face because he happened to go next to the "doggie" while he was eating or chewing his favorite toy/bone!
> 
> No reason whatsoever for any family dog to act aggressively to any family member or child just because they have their food or a toy oer a bone. The dog very quickly can learn that they are simply not allowed to act that way - no ifs, ans, or buts!
> 
> ...


Agreed!


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## Germanshepherdlova (Apr 16, 2011)

Neither of my dogs mind when I let them chew on a bone for a little but then take it away if it starts to splinter or if they are eating too much marrow at once because it will give them the runs. Since they were puppies they were familiar with me touching or temporarily taking their food or treats. I have kids and family members who have small children so it was very important that my dogs not think it's ok to bite just because someone touched their food. 

I have watched rescue shows before on tv and to test to see if a dog is adoptable they will reach in with a grabber thing and grab some of the dogs food while he is eating, if he reacts he is considered unadoptable. I think it's important to teach your dog that he must accept a human touching his food.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Many of those shelter dogs are carrying baggage(starvation) so of course are food aggressive...at the moment. Give them a month or two with good food, and not in stressful shelter environment and the food aggression goes away. I know that is a deal breaker for the assessments and it isn't fair, IMO. Any dog that has had to starve or hunt for meals is going to hold food at a higher value. Look at baby puppies when they come home from the litter. The competition to eat may be so great the food drive is huge. Then when they get 3 squares a day with no other dog interfering, they start getting picky and turn nose up to food. 
Playing the 'I'll put my hand in your food bowl' is just teaching a dog to value it more. 
Better to get rid of the bowl and feed from a hand if you are teaching food comes from you.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

codmaster said:


> Tell it to the 3yo kid who is bitten in the face because he happened to go next to the "doggie" while he was eating or chewing his favorite toy/bone!
> 
> No reason whatsoever for any family dog to act aggressively to any family member or child just because they have their food or a toy oer a bone. The dog very quickly can learn that they are simply not allowed to act that way - no ifs, ans, or buts!
> 
> Case is closed! Much safer around the dog as well!


How then shall we train? Because some people leave their dogs alone and respect the dog's space while it's eating and end up with a food-aggressive dog, so they draw the conclusion that dogs must be desensitized to being handled while they're eating. Others do the exact same thing and never have an issue with food aggression, drawing the conclusion that leaving them alone so they feel comfortable and secure is the best way. 

On the other hand, some people work food-desensitization on a regular basis and end up with a dog that guards its food and won't let anyone near while it's eating, so they reach the logical conclusion that continually bothering a dog while it's trying to eat is detrimental and creates aggression. Others work food-desensitization and never have a problem, so _they_ draw the logical conclusion that desensitization methods work well for preventing food aggression.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> How then shall we train? Because some people leave their dogs alone and respect the dog's space while it's eating and end up with a food-aggressive dog, so they draw the conclusion that dogs must be desensitized to being handled while they're eating. Others do the exact same thing and never have an issue with food aggression, drawing the conclusion that leaving them alone so they feel comfortable and secure is the best way.
> 
> On the other hand, some people work food-desensitization on a regular basis and end up with a dog that guards its food and won't let anyone near while it's eating, so they reach the logical conclusion that continually bothering a dog while it's trying to eat is detrimental and creates aggression. Others work food-desensitization and never have a problem, so _they_ draw the logical conclusion that desensitization methods work well for preventing food aggression.


Very good emoore.

Isn't the point of the forum to share what works for you.

So both of the points you made above are valid from the people who use the different methods. 

Most of the arguments come from the need to be right.

It shouldn't be that way but I guess it's human nature.
I think it's good there are different views and experiences. People can take what they want and ignore the rest. 

To answer the OP I've had many dogs over the years and none with food agggression


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

As I have said MANY times - everybody should train (or not) their own dogs to whatever standard of behavior they want and think is appropriate!

Just stating what I believe should be how a GSD (or other dog) should act toward their family and other people, and also have a GREAT deal of tolerance for kids!

If anyone actually thinks that a dog is acting appropriately when they growl or even snap at their family (and others) just because the person walks too close to them or deigns to try to pet them when they are busy doing their own thing - that's fine.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jack's Dad said:


> Most of the arguments come from the need to be right.




I don't agree with that. I think SOME of the arguments are based on a need to be "right", for sure, but a lot of them seem to be based on misunderstandings. It's very frustrating when your words are constantly misrepresented, and it seems like some people delight in doing so to deliberately provoke disagreements. 

If everyone responded to what everyone else actually SAID, and didn't make assumptions or try to read things into posts that people didn't say and don't mean, we'd have a lot fewer arguments, IMO.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Not to mention the people who come here for help have been taking away the dish and the dog is getting worse.
When (we) say "so do this method" and it's twisted and made to seem like we condone food aggression it's very frustrating. 
Well what ought we to say then? Keep doing what you're doing, it's, um, going to work some day, or just get rid of the dog??


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

*trade up question*

Can anyone who likes this method of training your dog not to be food (or toy) aggressive answer a question about what should an owner do if the dog happens to like what they have currently and won't trade for the new thing that you want to give them so that you can take what they have? 

For example the dog has a real bone with meat on it and you want to train the dog to give up a real bone when they have it so you offer them something better (don't know what would be but there must be something, right?).

You offer and and the dog refuses to give it up. Now what should the owner do? Give up and try again later?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

During training you'd never use a bone. 

You don't give high value treats until the dog is willing to give up what he already has, and feels secure in doing so, that you're not going to just take his stuff. When he realizes you're not "taking" but giving him better things he'll learn how to relinquish what he has.

Work under the threshold.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> During training you'd never use a bone.
> 
> You don't give high value treats until the dog is willing to give up what he already has, and feels secure in doing so, that you're not going to just take his stuff. When he realizes you're not "taking" but giving him better things he'll learn how to relinquish what he has.
> 
> Work under the threshold.


 
So don't use a bone - use a regular treat and the dog still refuses to trade. Same question - what do you suggest with the trade-up method?

Is there a good answer to the dog who refuses to trade or release what he has? 

Maybe just let the dog refuse and just keep chewing or eating and the owner just back off so as not to stress the dog?

What should the owner do? 

If there is no good answer as to what the owner should do when the dog has a thing they really like at the moment - why not just say so? Or if there is, then I don't know what it might be?


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Tell it to the 3yo kid who is bitten in the face because he happened to go next to the "doggie" while he was eating or chewing his favorite toy/bone!
> 
> No reason whatsoever for any family dog to act aggressively to any family member or child just because they have their food or a toy oer a bone. The dog very quickly can learn that they are simply not allowed to act that way - no ifs, ans, or buts!
> 
> ...


I don't think no matter how good your training is or how much control you think you have over your dog that you can guarantee that the above will not happen with a child or strange person you invited into the house. And if the above ever did happen I would most certainly blame the person who was supposed to be in charge of the dog and the child.

If I had a dog who had ever displayed food aggression I would never let the dog (with a food item) around a child or guest who I thought might interfere with the dog. No matter how well I thought I had dealt with the aggression this is just plain not safe. Just like no matter how safe I thought my dog was I would never leave it alone with a child. You have no control over what might happen. 

I don't think we should ever underestimate the power of natural instinct and I think to assume that someone could have complete control over another living creature is an illusion.

I think that most of us would agree that even though the method may differ the advice given is with the goal of getting rid of the aggression.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I've already talked extensively about how I train my dogs on numerous threads, I'm not interesting in reiterating it all over again here. 

And to the OP's question - I've never had food aggression or resource guarding issues and I can take things away from my dogs if I need to. Most of the time I don't need to though, because I've taught them to give stuff up willingly. On the rare occasion I need to forcefully remove something from my dogs' mouths, I simply do it, and I've never been growled at for doing so.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> *I've already talked extensively about how I train my dogs on numerous threads, I'm not interesting in reiterating it all over again here. *


Yep, the only reason some folks want to keep at it is to argue


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

The same questions keep getting asked, the same questions keep getting answered, and the answers keep getting ignored in favor of fueling an argument. Really, what's the point?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Clyde said:


> I don't think no matter how good your training is or how much control you think you have over your dog that you can guarantee that the above will not happen with a child or strange person you invited into the house. And if the above ever did happen I would most certainly blame the person who was supposed to be in charge of the dog and the child.
> 
> If I had a dog who had ever displayed food aggression I would never let the dog (with a food item) around a child or guest who I thought might interfere with the dog. No matter how well I thought I had dealt with the aggression this is just plain not safe. Just like no matter how safe I thought my dog was I would never leave it alone with a child. You have no control over what might happen.
> 
> ...


Clyde, I said "much safer" not 100%, but very close to it (at least with my dogs over the last 40 years).

And you are absolutely correct, if you don't trust your dog, don't let them around other people or esp. kids. That would be the right thing to do - even with your own family and your own kids.

You would never leave your dog alone with a child????? That would be tough I am sure. 

How old would your kids be that you wouldn't trust your dog alone with them? Did you put an age limit on it with your kids? I.E. how about kids of say 12yo or thereabouts?

I used to leave our dogs with our son when he was much younger than 12 and never really worried about either one harming the other, but of course our son grew up from babyhood with a dog or two or three in the house all the time.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> So don't use a bone - use a regular treat and the dog still refuses to trade. Same question - what do you suggest with the trade-up method?
> 
> Is there a good answer to the dog who refuses to trade or release what he has?
> 
> ...


I think this has already been answered in various post and links from this and the other thread.

But what is the method you would use if taking the item meant you would get bite what would your reaction be? 

People keep talking like this is just not allowed in their house but what is it you actually do to the dog?

Oh and with regards to stressing the dog I just wanted to say I love stressing the dog and seeing my dogs be stronger and more confident by learning how to deal with stress (I also have a pet peeve about people who are scared to put the word dog and stress together or are horrified to think that stress could actually be good for a dog). I just happen to prefer counter conditioning for dealing with food aggression issues but I do think that there are times and places were a direct confrontational approach is best.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Clyde said:


> I think this has already been answered in various post and links from this and the other thread.
> 
> But what is the method you would use if taking the item meant you would get bite what would your reaction be?
> 
> ...


 *Agreed!*

you are right, of course, clyde.

I guess the answer would be to just don't let the dog have a "high value" thing, i.e. real bone with meat on it. That is what the answer was by one poster so that is cool. How could I miss the answer to my question! Just don't let the situation of food guarding ever come up!


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Clyde, I said "much safer" not 100%, but very close to it (at least with my dogs over the last 40 years).
> 
> And you are absolutely correct, if you don't trust your dog, don't let them around other people or esp. kids. That would be the right thing to do - even with your own family and your own kids.
> 
> ...


Luckily I don't ever plan on having any children. Not sure why that is lucky but I liked the sound of it

Children who grew up in a house that is knowledgeable about dogs I am sure would be much safer at a younger age around dogs. But there are many children and adults for that matter who are completely unable to act appropriately around dogs. Really I have never been in a situation where I was concerned about the interactions of my dogs and other family members or guest at least on my dogs part And I take my dogs everywhere with me to family dinners, etc.

I have just meet to many inappropriate dogs and inappropriate people to take the interactions of the two for granted.

But I am not sure what this has to do with food aggression.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

codmaster said:


> *Agreed!*
> 
> you are right, of course, clyde.
> 
> I guess the answer would be to just don't let the dog have a "high value" thing, i.e. real bone with meat on it. That is what the answer was by one poster so that is cool. How could I miss the answer to my question! Just don't let the situation of food guarding ever come up!


.............until you can see a qualified trainer/behaviourist to help you!!

I totally AGREE seriously! I mean the whole reason people come on here seeking advice is because they are not able to handle the issue on their own.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Yes, let's _assume_ that one poster is speaking for EVERYONE.  Here we go again.....


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Clyde said:


> . Just like no matter how safe I thought my dog was I would never leave it alone with a child. You have no control over what might happen.
> 
> I don't think we should ever underestimate the power of natural instinct and I think to assume that someone could have complete control over another living creature is an illusion.
> 
> ...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

One of the things we have always taught our dogs is to "let go or drop" when we tell them to.
It is taught early on (I won't get into specifics) to release what they have in their mouths. We do not "trade up"....we (our method of choice) is to teach them from the beginning that they *must* release or give us what they have......period. 
It is not their "choice"....
With puppies, we start by taking things from them when they are chewing or playing....we do NOT simply take the objects away that we are using in formal training.....we teach that specific, formal *OUT* later....._but that is a completely different topic._
Because we have always engaged with taking and giving from puppy hood on....we have not had aggression issues re: dog to owner.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

To teach a puppy from the very beginning to drop it or to out, isn't all that hard. Most of the time you won't need compulsion, trade games or anything else.

As for the formal out, that indeed is a different topic. My other female learned the formal out not too long ago and it branched into the house manners. We actually had to do a formal out because she's got so much prey that if you wanted to take something from her, she would hold onto it even more. Not a good situation when your finger is in between the ball and her teeth.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Yes, let's _assume_ that one poster is speaking for EVERYONE.  Here we go again.....


I don't get it? I thought I was just finding something common to agree on with codmaster.

But maybe that was not referring to me? Sometimes I get all confused about who is responding to who


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

And fingers ALWAYS have the tendency to get in the way! LOL!
I agree MrsK.....teaching a puppy to "give it up" does not require much if any compulsion...but it sure is an important thing to teach early on.
I think if it was *required learning* from the beginning....there would be less aggression issues later on, especially food and object guarding......but that is simply my small opinion.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

robinhuerta said:


> One of the things we have always taught our dogs is to "let go or drop" when we tell them to.
> It is taught early on (I won't get into specifics) to release what they have in their mouths. We do not "trade up"....we (our method of choice) is to teach them from the beginning that they *must* release or give us what they have......period.
> It is not their "choice"....
> With puppies, we start by taking things from them when they are chewing or playing....we do NOT simply take the objects away that we are using in formal training.....we teach that specific, formal *OUT* later.....


Robin, is this something you teach with a command and you expect them to drop the object, or is the point just to teach the puppy from a very early age that you can take things out of its mouth?


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> One of the things we have always taught our dogs is to "let go or drop" when we tell them to.
> It is taught early on (I won't get into specifics) to release what they have in their mouths. We do not "trade up"....we (our method of choice) is to teach them from the beginning that they *must* release or give us what they have......period.
> It is not their "choice"....
> With puppies, we start by taking things from them when they are chewing or playing....we do NOT simply take the objects away that we are using in formal training.....we teach that specific, formal *OUT* later....._but that is a completely different topic._
> Because we have always engaged with taking and giving from puppy hood on....we have not had aggression issues re: dog to owner.


I think some of the confusion and disagreement is because we are not all taking about the same thing. Sorry just using this as an example Robin.

The above I would say is things that should be done to help prevent possession issues. And there have been many other posts that I thought seemed to be aimed in the same direction of what to do before it happens.
Also some posts have been about what to do in the first instance of a dog showing aggression. And some post are on how to deal with an aggressive dog who have been practising this for years.

I think some of the suggestions have been misinterpreted because we are not looking at what point in time or with what dog the suggestion was for.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> One of the things we have always taught our dogs is to "let go or drop" when we tell them to.
> It is taught early on (I won't get into specifics) to release what they have in their mouths. We do not "trade up"....we (our method of choice) is to teach them from the beginning that they *must* release or give us what they have......period.
> It is not their "choice"....
> With puppies, we start by taking things from them when they are chewing or playing....we do NOT simply take the objects away that we are using in formal training.....we teach that specific, formal *OUT* later....._but that is a completely different topic._
> Because we have always engaged with taking and giving from puppy hood on....we have not had aggression issues re: dog to owner.


Yes. thanks Robin.

Clyde. I agree that prevention or after the fact food or object aggression are treated differently and some times we are not all talking about the same thing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

codmaster said:


> So don't use a bone - use a regular treat and the dog still refuses to trade. Same question - what do you suggest with the trade-up method?
> 
> Is there a good answer to the dog who refuses to trade or release what he has?


Here is how I view this....

1) You don't wait until you HAVE to take something away to teach them to release or 'trade up'
2) You purposely set up a scenario to teach the dog what you want and teach them to release. Dog has a bone, but you KNOW he'll drop the bone for a frisbee. So teach the dog first so when you have to use it, they already know.
3) Teach Drop It and Leave It before you need to use it!

Again...I know I said this before....you don't wait until a trial to teach your dog to sit when you need them to sit



codmaster said:


> Maybe just let the dog refuse and just keep chewing or eating and the owner just back off so as not to stress the dog?
> 
> What should the owner do?


Go back to answer #1 It's like training any command. If you can't guarantee the end result, you don't set your dog up for failure. If you are training come, do you go to an empty field and yell for them to come or do you teach them what Come means and then proof it?



codmaster said:


> If there is no good answer as to what the owner should do when the dog has a thing they really like at the moment - why not just say so? Or if there is, then I don't know what it might be?


Go back to answer #1


Now...if this is an adult dog that has been adopted and has shown food aggression, I would separate them to a crate to eat until I taught them the above and had built a relationship.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Jax08 said:


> 1) You don't wait until you HAVE to take something away to teach them to release or 'trade up'
> 2) You purposely set up a scenario to teach the dog what you want and teach them to release. Dog has a bone, but you KNOW he'll drop the bone for a frisbee. So teach the dog first so when you have to use it, they already know.
> 3) Teach Drop It and Leave It before you need to use it!


Yup. It's analogous to: "So, when your dog is running down the street after a speeding car, are you going to go to the fridge for some chicken to get him to come? What if he'd rather chase the car than have chicken?"

No, you drill "come" in low-distraction environments with high-value treats. So that when your dog is chasing the car down the street, it's ingrained in him to come when you call and he's halfway back to you before he even knows what he's doing. 

When I call my dog to come, he practically gets whiplash turning himself around to sprint back to me. It's not like he takes a moment to consider if he really wants to do it. _That's what training is._


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

I like that Jax very well said


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

@Emoore.....actually both.
When we start with puppies...they learn that *we* can have whatever they have at anytime....as they grow, when they *think* that they can "hold on" to an object,......they are taught (yes, with proper compulsion) that they must let go or spit the object out.
*I had a Rottie bitch, that when she was *informed* that she *must* release when I ask her to...she would literally spit the object out......such...that is was almost projectile.......that automatic release was extremely useful in her training and home life.
She was *educated* at about 15mos old, when she decided that she *might* consider possessing her bone from me...and I should be warned about it......HA!....guess who had possession of the bone in about 3 mins.....never again to happen.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> Now...if this is an adult dog that has been adopted and has shown food aggression, I would separate them to a crate to eat until I taught them the above and had *built a relationship.*


SO SO SO very huge!!
you can't form a relationship in a couple days/weeks

the dog has to be able to trust you.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Perfect.
We need to make this a sticky so that when the arguers pop up we can copy the link.




Jax08 said:


> Here is how I view this....
> 
> 1) You don't wait until you HAVE to take something away to teach them to release or 'trade up'
> 2) You purposely set up a scenario to teach the dog what you want and teach them to release. Dog has a bone, but you KNOW he'll drop the bone for a frisbee. So teach the dog first so when you have to use it, they already know.
> ...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Clyde said:


> I don't get it? I thought I was just finding something common to agree on with codmaster.
> 
> But maybe that was not referring to me? Sometimes I get all confused about who is responding to who


Nope, not referring to you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Emoore said:


> Yup. It's analogous to: "So, when your dog is running down the street after a speeding car, are you going to go to the fridge for some chicken to get him to come? What if he'd rather chase the car than have chicken?"
> 
> No, you drill "come" in low-distraction environments with high-value treats. So that when your dog is chasing the car down the street, it's ingrained in him to come when you call and he's halfway back to you before he even knows what he's doing.
> 
> When I call my dog to come, he practically gets whiplash turning himself around to sprint back to me. It's not like he takes a moment to consider if he really wants to do it. _That's what training is._


Exactly! :thumbup: I don't know how much clearer you could possibly make it.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Emoore;2.
When I call my dog to come said:


> That's what training is.[/I]



Yup that is what Benny has taught me. Train so obedience is a knee jerk reaction. Set the dog up to succeed by starting with very easy things and then progress to more distractions, higher level objects. Lots of praise. It is working Benny. Probably easier when you have raised the this way since they were pups

That said: DH is a bit food aggressive. I just let him eat in peace.


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## gmcenroe (Oct 23, 2007)

I have never had a GSD or other dog with food aggression. My dogs have always been raised as puppies and hand fed at early age to they know my hand in their food is not a threat. Same with food bowl, add food to the bowl while they are eating from early age. I don't disturb my dog when she is eating, but it wouldn't be a problem. Hand feeding food as training rewards as well. I have seen some mild resource guarding of toys but correct that before it gets out of hand. Teach the dog to out their tug toys and give the toy right back to them so they know letting go of it means they might get it right back. Also when my dog was a puppy she was a rock eater, so I had my hand in her mouth removing rocks at an early age until she learned rocks are not food, so I can put my hand in my dogs mouth anytime necessary.


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