# Diarrhea



## TattooedOpinion (Oct 8, 2015)

We got our pup at the end of Sept - born 1st week of June. He flew to us weighing 23lbs. I got Victor [which the breeder had been feeding him] and he had diarrhea for a few days which because of the stress of a new home, new people, flying, and two new cats - one of which is a siamese Asshat, it was expected. 

A few days later, we took him to his first vet visit. They invaded him and tried to pull poo out [I will admit, it's my first dog as an adult - my dad always took our pup to the vet - Didn't know to bring a bag of poo]. They weren't able to get anything out of him - I explained to them he'd been having some issues, so he was probably empty. 

It was a HORRIBLE vet visit, too. He weighed 19lbs. I was there for two hours. I had to read the shot list for the vet tech who couldn't decipher something that seemed simple. I'm not a vet tech, and it made sense to me. 

I got lectured for my dog food choice the moment I said "Grain Free" when he asked why I went with Victor - and then tried to sell me on the benefits of grain and dogs need it b/c they aren't celiac... and I should buy the Royal Canin from his office [uh... and all credibility went out of the window]. They also came in with an initial visit cost of $300. I removed basically EVERYTHING I didn't NEED [I just paid $1400 for a pup, I wasn't expecting an immediate $300 vet bill]. We got wormed, had a fecal with the tiny amount of poo from the thermometer and paid $130. 

After another week of terrible poos we switched to rice/pumpkin/chicken which helped for a few days. Slowly moved back to regular food and we're back to poo trouble. I made an appointment with a DIFFERENT vet. 

20 lbs still - after about a month. Giardia. LOTS and LOTS of Giardia. 

7 days of metronidazole. Poo started to reform. It was still a little runny at the end on occasion or just soft - formed, but when you picked it up lost all form. Occasionally it would be runny - he loves eating ALL the crap on the ground and we live in an apt complex with a lot of people who don't pick up their dog poo. We had to resort to a prong collar to get him to stop eating everything on the ground. 

So for the last week he's been on a 1/2c rice, 1/2c dog food [give or take], 2tbs pumpkin, 1 dose Imodium, and 1 clove minced garlic. It was nice to be able to pick the poo up again... - I figured with everything he'd been eating on the ground, making him taste bad to nasties seemed like a better idea. I did my research, Garlic isn't actually bad for dogs. 

Yesterday we went to the vet again and his poo came back parasite free. And he was 40lbs - so he's been growing good after that month long stall. Which is a good thing, but this morning his poo was leaning more towards the pudding phase. Not quite, but almost. 

Any other ideas that could help fix my pup? He LOVES yogurt. He was on the Puppy/Adult Victor, but because we wanted more weight gain changed him over to Nutra Pro 38 - 1 cup + a little extra 3 times a day 5 days a week and twice a day two days a week [only b/c nobody is home for his lunch those days]. He also gets 1 medium milk bone every time we come back in from peeing/pooing that was successful. No treat for not going.  The treats were removed while he was on the rice diet and added back when the rice was removed. 

I'm ordering the Gocci Free now.


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

Victor has made a great improvement thanks to your diiigent care. I would suggest adding a prebiotic (I use Optagest) to help build up the good bacteria in his tummy.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi Tattooed & Welcome! :welcome:

Glad you ordered the Kocci Free!

Agree with Mary Beth that your pup needs something for his gut.
Digestive Enzyme (helps to assimilate food) & a ProBiotic (keeps the "good" bacteria in the gut). Since about 75% of the immune system lies in the gut, it is very important to keep it healthy!
Here are 2 Human Grade Products I use:
*Sunday Sundae* (Digestive Enzyme & Pro-Biotic Combo): Sunday-Sundae-12oz
*Digest All Plus:* (Digestive Enzyme/ProBiotic combo) Wholistic Digest All Plus? - Digestive Support - Canine

Do you mean the Milk Bones in the red box from the grocery store? 

_P__uppy Milk Bones: _Ingredients: Wheat Flour, Milk, Soybean Meal, Meat and Bone Meal (*Unidentified* meat source = this could be ANY animal! Dead, Diseased, Dying even Euthanized Companion Animals!) , Wheat Bran, *Beef Fat (Preserved with BHA)*, Dried Beet Pulp, Wheat Germ, Salt, Calcium Phosphate, Ground Limestone, *Fat Product *(this could be fat from ANY animal!)*(Source of Docosahexaenoic Acid [DHA]),* Sodium Bicarbonate, Malted Barley Flour, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Choline Chloride, *Sodium Metabisulfite* (Used as a Preservative), *BHA* (Used as a Preservative). 
_
Medium Milk Bones_: Wheat Flour, Wheat Bran, *Meat and Bone Meal **(Unidentified meat source = this could be ANY animal! Dead, Diseased, Dying even Euthanized Companion Animals!) ,* Milk, Wheat Germ, Beef Fat (*Preserved with BHA*), Salt, Natural Flavor, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Brewer's Dried Yeast, Malted Barley Flour, *Sodium Metabisulfite* (Used as a Preservative), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement), *BHA *(Used as a Preservative).

Milk Bones
Ingredients: preserved with * BHA *and *BHT* have both been found to cause cancer in laboratory animals, and even the US DHHS (Department of Health and Human Services) says they are unsafe for consumption!

Sodium Metabisulfite
 is on the Hazardous Substance List because it is cited by ACGIH, DOT, NIOSH and IARC.http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/1708.pdf 




*Ingredient in some of their other products:
*
*propyl-gallate*= can cause stomach and skin irritation, liver damage, kidney damage and has the potential to increase your chances of having cancer.
*artificial color includes* (from CSPI) “*Yellow #5*: May be contaminated with such cancer causing substances as benzidine and 4 aminobiphenyl (or chemicals that the body converts to those substances).
*Red #40* From CSPI: "Red 40, the most
widely used dye, may accelerate the appearance of immune system tumors in mice.
The dye causes hypersensitivity (allergy like) reactions in a small number of consumers
and might trigger hyperactivity in children. Considering the safety questions and its non essentially, Red 40 should be excluded from foods unless and until new tests clearly demonstrate its safety.")

Below are the treats I would suggest to purchase or you can save money buy making your own cut up pieces of meat! Freeze in plastic baggies until needed. I have a simple recipe if you are interested!
*Bravo Bonus Bites:* are 100% all meat, and made from all natural, antibiotic-free, grain free meats and organ meat protein sources.
Example:_ "Dry Roasted" Buffalo Liver: _Ingredients Grass-fed buffalo liver.
_"Freeze Dried Treats" - Venison Liver:_ Ingredients Grass-fed venison liver.

*Bravo Training Treats:* Made from 100% muscle and organ meats and real Vermont Cheddar Cheese. Contain no grains, fillers or unnecessary additives of any kind. Perfectly sized to be held between two fingers for easy hand-to-dog feeding. 
Example: "Turkey Bites" - Ingredients: Turkey thigh meat.
Example: "Trail Mix" - Contains the following - Ingredients: Turkey Bites: turkey meat Buffalo Bites: buffalo heart Hot Dogs: *beef**, water, sea salt, celery juice and/or celery powder, sodium lactate, spices, Onion powder, garlic powder, paprika. **beef* used was never administered antibiotics or growth hormones. Vermont Cheddar Cheese: Pasteurized milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzyme. Usually available at "Pet Supply Plus" chain stores. Find a location: Pet Supplies Plus : Home Page 

*The Honest Kitchen Treats* Locate a store: Where to Buy Honest Kitchen - Honest Kitchen Stores | The Honest Kitchen
*Beams*: a natural dehydrated fish dog treat! They’re made from pure, wild-caught Atlantic Catfish* skins, from the clean ocean waters of Iceland, dried into savory, chewy sticks. They’re guaranteed to satisfy the pickiest of pups and are the perfect treat alternative to dried chicken snacks or bully sticks. Beams, like all our products, contain no Chinese ingredients!
*Nuzzles*: made with duck & cherries.


If you are considering changing foods, the following are High Quality Kibbles:
*ACANA: *Store locator: Store Locator | Acana
*
FROMM'S:* locator: Find a store that carries Fromm

*Nature's Variety* (not Nature's Recipe) 
Store locator: Find A Store | Nature's Variety

Moms


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## TattooedOpinion (Oct 8, 2015)

**



Momto2GSDs said:


> Do you mean the Milk Bones in the red box from the grocery store?


Lol - yeah - I'm not a fan of them other than the "wahoo, we're at the bank and they gave me a treat-treat". My fiance is actually REALLY picky about dog food/treats, etc. Even our cats eat Taste of the Wild at $More Money than I've ever spent on cat food. I was surprised to learn that's what he gives his dog -- and he's trained and worked with several military/police dogs. 

But he bought the box - as for the meat source - it's STILL better than anything Axe finds on the ground outside.  I'll still look into better treats. 

His training treats [for class] is beef hotdog-overcooked. We got him when he was almost 4 months old, so he had [and still has] a lot of things to learn. He's a good boy - just a little special. And stubborn. With the most adorable "derp-face" ever. 

I'll try the probiotics as well. I'm going to keep him on the rice/pumpkin/garlic/dog food diet and slowly pull back the Imodium over the next few days. He only had it for 2 of his 3 meals. Luckily for everybody he has learned to hold it really well. We haven't had to use the Spot Cleaner for poo in several weeks. 

He still insists on peeing inside every now and then. That's getting old fast - but I can tell he's just 'testing' what he's learned. Until then, he gets to live in his kennel when nobody is around, or we're too busy. 

The first pic is when we first got him, and the second was a month ago. SUPER hard to take a picture of a black dog like him. He mostly shows up in pictures as a dog-shaped void. 

And he has an obsession with chasing light, so when the flash goes off - he goes into "OMG I HAVE TO FIND IT!" [I'm aware that some dogs can go neurotic - but he has learned how to make the light happen by running through the blinds, chasing the light, and running through the blinds again. He's only allowed to do it a few times a day. Less neurosis... I hope.


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## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

What a cutie!

"I'm going to keep him on the rice/pumpkin/garlic/dog food diet and slowly pull back the Imodium over the next few days" Did the vet instruct you to give the Imodium? If not, he should only take it for a few days per petmd.com.
A more natural choice would be to get some Slippery Elm capsules, from a health food store, and give them about an hour before eating. This will coat and calm his stomach.

Moms


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## TattooedOpinion (Oct 8, 2015)

We live in a 3rd-floor apartment. Leaving him outside (or even inside) to explode all over isn't really an option. The doc approved Imodium use while we figure it out. He was doing fairly well, but after being kenneled for several hours while I worked [normally my fiance is home while I'm at work - but 2-3 times a month that isn't the case] he couldn't hold it any longer and exploded the moment he was let out of the kennel. 

Anytime he poos in the house, it sets back his potty training and it takes a few days to remind him not to pee in the house. I don't like leaving him in the kennel that often, but for those two days he gets to live in there almost exclusively when nobody is directly interacting with him. Luckily, he's still a growing boy so he has bouts of puppy crazies followed by "OMG, I need to nap for like a week". And he ALWAYS gets a treat when he goes into the kennel, so he dives in nose-first -- I'm sure there is a dent where his nose lands, lol. 

When I work from home, he's welcome to pass out at my feet all day. Currently, he's passed out on my feet on the couch with his nose on my lap. He rang the bell to pee, but then came and started sleeping before I could finish what I was doing to take him out. 

We had thought all was good, but when he exploded again Wed night I stopped at the store for some "CHEAP" dog food. I just wanted a small bag of something with a totally different protein. I got Purina Nature Tuna & Egg, we also got Digestive Enzyme tabs and kefir -- and it worked. He's gone the last 3 days with solid poos and JUST the enzyme tablet, dog food and a little bit of Kefir and has totally normal poo. 

I went to go compare the list of ingredients to the Victor stuff AND the Taste of the Wild stuff my fiance had gotten that also failed. . . then I realized I had bought Axe cat food - the Whitefish and Egg. Somebody must have placed it in the dog food aisle and I didn't notice when I grabbed it. *snort* -- Well, you know - if it worked, it worked.  

I've no problem buying the cheaper dog food version of the same food for a month if it gives the poor guys system a chance to heal from whatever the **** it's gone through lately. It's not the best food, but if the best food causes gastro issues, then... it's not really best either. Right now I think a few weeks of good solid poos is in order. For all of our sanity. 

And the good news is that our super picky cat seems to love that food and before I could feed Axe, ate half a cup really fast [he almost never eats ANYTHING but 'healthy food' like yogurt, and his Taste of the Wild/Blue Buffalo]. He won't touch milk, ice cream, any kind of meat, wet cat food... at least the rest of the bag won't go to waste. 

Today, since I'm home for two days, we're putting him back on the Victor food with kefir and digestive enzyme. If all goes well, then he may have just needed the probiotics. If not... then it's the food and we'll play the elimination game to figure out what exactly it is. We'll play it slowly.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

maybe try some probiotics to help get the good bacteria back in him. When my dog was a puppy the vet gave him a gel probiotic, It was wonderful. Now that he's older he gets this one when needed. He hasn't needed it in a while though. Antibiotic and worming treatments when he was a puppy just threw his gut out of whack. Maybe your vet can give you the gel probiotic.


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## TattooedOpinion (Oct 8, 2015)

We used the digestive enzyme+probiotics and a little Kefir and that cat food for about 3 days with much success. Changed to the same, but with the Victor. 

No bueno. In fact, last night was a comedy of errors. He had the food for breakfast and then dinner. While he finished eating I put on my shoes and he managed to poo on the floor [and subsequently eat it - yeah!] before I even had both shoes on my feet. *facepalm*

So I quickly looked up some Low Ingredient Foods (b/c while the cat food worked.... it's not made for dogs ) - I found Natures Variety Limited in Duck - but our normal store was closed so we drove to the one a few minutes away that was open. They just had Turkey. But it had clay in it to help with dogs with IBS. 

Picked out the food and he proceeded to vomit on the floor. Which I was rather happy about b/c I didn't want it in my car. 

I cleaned it up, and had the lady at the store hold his leash - she offered to clean it and I said I would feel too guilty. 

We hop in the car, Axe prancing about as he does [he has a lot of "deer-like" qualities]. 5 minutes into the ride I hear it. Ugh. He's vomiting again. I was NOT prepared for that smell. Luckily it was only 10 mintues home, and while I've almost quit smoking -- I was happy to have the excuse to have the window down in 11deg weather. 

I got out of the car and went to the back to start cleaning up. It took half a roll of shop towels and about 30 minutes to clean up as much as I could. It was dark, I had to do the rest in the morning when I could see it all. I will now be purchasing a WeatherTech liner for my trunk, since the tire is stored back there, and it leaked down under. It's going to take me forever to get it all up. HORRIBLE. At least he was calm and layed there while I cleaned it up. I must have used the real "mom" voice. 

Then we hopped inside and fed him a little of the new food after a few hour rest b/c while I was eating he informed me that he was starving, and I was trying to kill him. 

Fast Forward to this morning. I fed him at 7:40 and took him outside. No poo. I had to leave for work at 8:20, and took him out at 8:10... Nadda. I waited until I'd be 10 min late for work. Nadda. I took that as a good sign, locked him in his kennel and bolted out the door. 

Two hours later I get a text from my DH. All is not okay in the world of Axe. In the last hour he's had 4 poos, liquid - not even pudding. And the last two were clear [but no blood]. The good news is that he's up and about and still having "puppy crazies" tearing around the house. . . :doggieplayball: and he'd been gaining weight really well - he's definately fatter and filling out - even this last week I can see a change. 

He had Giardia before, and even though his poo was just declared clean - maybe he's got that still/again. He's already been to two different vets 4 times total - I can't keep paying $140+ for each visit for no freaking answers. Mostly because at this second... I have $10 [and $80 on reserve to pay for my kids baggage on her flight home from her dads]. And I'm in a job where I can't work OT to earn any extra - and I have to pay $11/hour for daycare, so it's not like I can find a part-time job. Maybe I'll make my 8 year old stay home alone for 2.5 hours a day. I could really use that $400 a month in other ways. 

Lesson learned? If you buy a puppy keep $3k in reserve for the vet. 

I honestly have no idea what to do, and I don't get paid again til the 8th. And worse yet, I work 9-5 and am not off til Friday - and have NO vacation time left. :help: I'll have to talk to the vet about letting me pay later - which I've done before. I don't have the Credit Rating for Care right now - my cards are all maxed [flights for my daughter - I don't have a lot of cards, so ... buying court mandated plane tickets is a must]. 

So he's back on a water diet for the day - and probably tomorrow. And I'm stuck at work panicking b/c there is nothing I can do at all. 

I need a drink. 

Yup. Maybe I'll just buy my kid a good texting phone and let her stay home. It was fine before, but the costs of EVERYTHING have gone up so much, I can't even afford the luxeries I could just 8 months ago. How does car insurance go up $60/month when you have no new tickets?! Our rent went up $400/month [for the same place!].


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## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

I hope today is going better for you and your dog. You both deserve it after your ordeal.
An enzyme cleaner from a pet shop or grocery store pet dept. will help to remove the odor.
For the vet bills, I can understand, after my cat ran up a $250 bill, I decided to get pet insurance. I found it is easier on the budget to pay a monthly smaller premium than to have the big bills.


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