# I don't want my daughter around Pit Bulls ...



## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

That I don't personally know and even then.... Okay, I KNOW I am going to get a lot of negative comments on this post but I am just being honest and just not comfortable to let my 5 year old go to friends homes who have pit bulls. I know it's about how they are raised, etc. but they also were bred for what they were bred for and you just never know.

My sister is a trauma surgeon in Portland at OHSU, she said the worst thing she has EVER seen in her career was a 5 year old attacked by a Pit Bull who was a "well adjusted, great pet". She said that her face was basically gone and it's the first case she has ever seen where she was glad the child didn't survive to live the after effects... 

I had a border collie for 14 years and I could never train the herding instinct out of her. She would herd the vacuum, herd me, herd anything moving really, it was inbred into her and was just her way. Pit Bulls were bred for fighting. I have seen so many news stories here like one where a sweet grandma type raised the dog and the dog killed her grandson on a whim.

I KNOW what will come up here again and again is how the dog is raised, but what about the accounts of dogs that were apparently raised as part of the family in the home and allegedly very sweet dogs who kill a child or attack on a whim? I know it's happened with other breeds but I haven't seen many reports of that like I do for Pitts. Here in Colorado they have banned them in the Denver Metro area because of the numerous attacks. 

I am only leaving this message because I know how knowledgeable people here are on dogs and want to understand why these attacks are so constant with the Pit Bulls. I want to feel comfortable having my daughter around them but I just don't right now. After what my sister told me I am terrified to have my daughter around any Pitt. Am I wrong? *sigh*

Please give me more than "it's how they are raised" because I have seen that is not nec. true from numerous reports. One of the reasons I am leaving this post is that my daughter's best friends just got a pup Pit Bull and I know it is not the right environment for that dog.

And then, how can I say to them "I don't want my daughter around a pit bull" when I have a GSD? Sorry, just venting, but wanted to run it by you all


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

While Pit Bulls were bred to fight - they were bred to fight other dogs. They were also bred to be exceptionally _good_ with people, even during a fight their handlers needed to be able to get in their safely. Aggression towards dogs and aggression towards people are totally different behaviors. So, by the "what they were bred for argument" it makes sense to keep your dog away from them but not your daughter (or no more than unknown dogs of other breeds). 

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but I was reading something recently where Pit Bulls are one of the top scoring breeds on temperament tests.



> Quote:what about the accounts of dogs that were apparently raised as part of the family in the home and allegedly very sweet dogs who kill a child or attack on a whim? I know it's happened with other breeds but I haven't seen many reports of that like I do for Pitts.


Unfortunately I think that has more to do with the media than the breed. "Pit Bull attacks" get a lot more press than attacks by less sensationalized breeds but it doesn't actually mean that there are more of them - at least when it comes to family pets. The larger number of Pit Bull bite statistics are due to the type of situation in which many of these dogs are kept (not family pets, outside, drug situations etc) rather than their breed.

My suggestion would be to be cautious of any unknown dog and to reorient your major restriction to people who have tethered dogs. Tethered dogs, of any breed, can be extremely dangerous to children that wander into their reach.


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## drkcloud4u (Jan 7, 2006)

It's how the dog (cause this applies to all dogs) is raised
AND....

How the CHILD is raised!

No matter how much good training a dog has they can only tolerate so much screaming, pulling, tugging, rough petting, etc..before snapping....(heck this applies to me as well)...


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNitewere bred for what they were bred for and you just never know.





> Originally Posted By: StarryNite Pit Bulls were bred for fighting.


yes, pit bulls were bred for fighting <u>DOGS</u>...
given what you've said about your daughters friend and her family - i would not leave my child unsupervised (by me) around their dog, period, regardless of breed.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

How can the media ignore all dog attacks except pit bulls though? I would think if a person was attacked by any dog it would make the news. I agree about everything you guys are saying, I really do, I just want to understand this and get over my fear. 

My daughter is great and mostly gentle with dogs so that is not the issue here, her and Lulu get along fabulously and she respects Lou and even when she gets upset with Lou, Lou backs off. I honestly don't think it's a media thing determined to get rid of Pit Bulls


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Okay, a "for instance". She wants to go play at her friend Diego's home, they have a full grown pit. I don't know the family or the dog, should I let her go play there?


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## drkcloud4u (Jan 7, 2006)

Not chihuahuas...I've been attacked by those things before...it doesn't make the news cause it's almost comical...but those little teeth hurt!! Little dogs have the worst tempers!
I've never been attacked by a big dog...


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh, and how can I say "I don't want my daughter to play there because you have a Pit Bull but I have a GSD if he wants to play here"
GRRRRR


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

Would it be possible for you to express your concerns to the parent, and maybe go with her when she wants to play at that home, at least until you feel more comfortable?

Shadow is very friendly, but if we have any kids at my home that don't belong to me, Shadow is kept away, for his safety as well as the kids. (that tail can hurt when it's doing the helicopter happy dance.)


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

OMG drkcloud! My grandma had a chihuahua named "killer", very appropriately! VERY mean doggie! It's easy to love things that can't really harm though, right?


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

"don't know the family" is more important than "don't know the dog". imho. do you usually let your daughter go to play at the homes of children whose family you don't know? that doesn't seem wise no matter what kind of dog they have.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Actually, not only were they bred for fighting dogs(actually I think they were bred for handling the bulls and livestock and later used for fighting dogs...), they were bred specifically not to have any human aggression but by the same token, these dog handlers have to get into the ring with injured animals and pull fighting dogs apart, do you think they want a dog to turn on them? Just a side note, I think of all of the dogs on Michael Vicks property, only one was put down as being a danger to others. I'm not telling you that your daughter is safe with another dog, but I dont believe she is any more at risk if they got a mut. The pitt bull used to be the "nanny" dog.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Shadow,

Yes, I think I would like that, to go with her for her first few visits at least... I would like for other parents to come here as well but it seems that most parents I meet are just happy to drop their kids off and say "see you in a bit"


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteOkay, a "for instance". She wants to go play at her friend Diego's home, they have a full grown pit. I don't know the family or the dog, should I let her go play there?


Have you been over to their house yet? I wouldn't let my kid (if I had one) go play at someone else's house unless I had checked it out myself first. That would include their pets.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: katieliz"don't know the family" is more important than "don't know the dog". imho. do you usually let your daughter go to play at the homes of children whose family you don't know? that doesn't seem wise no matter what kind of dog they have.


Nope, I NEVER do, just seems like lately my daughter has been making a lot of friends and I have been trying to get to know the family, parents, etc. who aren't giving much back to me. They mostly don't seem to care where or when their kids play as long as they know where they are. This is an issue as well.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteHow can the media ignore all dog attacks except pit bulls though? I would think if a person was attacked by any dog it would make the news. I agree about everything you guys are saying, I really do, I just want to understand this and get over my fear.


my old neighbors wheaton terrier attacked the dog sitter, requiring her to seek medical attention and have stitches... ALL dog bites requiring medical attention are suppose to be reported. when she brought this up in the emergency room, she was asked what type of dog did it and was actually told "don't bother... it won't tilt the charts either way". you bet it tilts the charts! and unfairly!

not to mention, this dog bit 3 more times after the above incident (including 2 bites to the owner herself) and was eventually put down due to aggression. but not one report, ever, on this little guy.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteHow can the media ignore all dog attacks except pit bulls though? I would think if a person was attacked by any dog it would make the news. I agree about everything you guys are saying, I really do, I just want to understand this and get over my fear.


"Pit Bulls" are "in" as far as the media, it is more sensational so if another type of dog attacks someone it is more likely to not be widely reported-- it might get on the local news, but if a "pit bull" is involved in a bite the national news often covers it repeatedly.
Additionally they often get the breed/type wrong. First of all there is no one breed called "pit bull" -- that term refers to several different breeds (most commonly the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier and Staffordshire Bull Terrier but at times any dog related to a Bulldog is called a "pit bull"). In many cases they (the media or the person reporting a bite) refer to any muscular dog with a large head as "pit bull" even if they may not be one of the "bully breeds." 
Also many times the type of dog is reported incorrectly by the media as a "pit bull" even though it is some other breed.

You can see many examples here:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Articles/MistakenIdentity/WrongId.htm 


As far as letting your child around pit bulls, please remember that any dog can bite and any except the smallest dogs can cause major damage.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

^in addition to Chicagocanine's post: http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangHave you been over to their house yet? I wouldn't let my kid (if I had one) go play at someone else's house unless I had checked it out myself first. That would include their pets.


Not in Diego's case, Lauri, and yes, that is my point exactly, I am not comfortable with it AND they have a Pit Bull. I think I will insist that if Maya goes to play at Diego's home I will have to be there as well.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Your kid is your responsibility. All the pit owners in the world that tell you it is not the breed, etc., are not going to be there in the hospital while your daughter is being stitched up, etc. 

Your child is at a high risk age too. 

If you do not know the family, or if you are worried about the dog, than no, do not let your child go there. You have no idea if they are responsible dog owners because you do not know them. If they own a GSD, the same should apply. 

Frankly, if a person had any of the major breeds (the ones insurance companies frown on), pit, GSD, Rotty, Doberman, Chow, Akita, Lab mix, bull mastiff, I would not let her go unattended.

About little dogs, cockers, and scottys and chis, and poodles, we do know they bite, yes, but most of them are not going to cause the level of injury that the larger, stronger breeds can inflict. You may have to take you kid to the doctor and get a tetnus shot, but it is unlikely that you will have to help her emotionally get over it. 

The last thing in the world you want to do is kick yourself because you did not take a more active position.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

But then how can I say that she can't play there and he can play here when I have a GSD? I imagine his mom won't want him here either. It's hard to get to know the parents in this neighborhood. Everyone always has something else going on and most are just happy to let their kids play wherever they want, but I am not that way.


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## shadow mum (Apr 8, 2008)

We have a rule in my house. My kids don't go play at someone else's house without me until I know the family well, and I also won't LET any kids come to my home without their parents for a while. Just seems safer that way for all parties.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Thank you Selzer! My feelings exactly!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerAbout little dogs, cockers, and scottys and chis, and poodles, we do know they bite, yes, but most of them are not going to cause the level of injury that the larger, stronger breeds can inflict.


i still operate under the "a dog is a dog" rule. a vicious bite from a cocker in the face/eye can do a lot more damage than an annoyed doberman bite on the arm or leg.



> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteBut then how can I say that she can't play there and he can play here when I have a GSD?


either your fear is not offending the other parent and causing tension - or your fear is in your childs actual safety. if you honestly think your child is in danger playing over there - then you go over with her, to supervise yourself. the other parent may not have the same concerns as you do, therefore letting their kid come play at your house with a GSD isn't an issue for them.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

truly the issue should be whether you trust the family with your child's welfare, and not what kind of a puppy they have. If they are good trustworthy people, then the dog should be a non issue, also, I think if you look at the statistitics in dog attacks, the majority are caused by unaltered animals. I just went round and round on this somewhere else. But I have known several pitts and they were very good with the kids.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

True. Cam. I know my dog and that she is great with kids and would never hurt a fly. I do need to get to know them and their dog before I can allow her to play there. My fear is my daughter's safety after my sister described that attack from an apparently happy, well rounded dog. YES, Pits were bred to attack other dogs but my daughter likes to pretend she is a dog all the time. I just worry.


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

I am not a huge fan of pit bulls, mainly because I have never had the chance to be around calm loving animals. The ones I have had the chance to be close, showed signs of aggresion, not necessarily did have it, just seemed more aggresive then I was comfortable.

HOWEVER, I really think that Pit Bulls and Rots have gotten alot of publicity for more then a decade. For years, I heard the Cocker's were one of the more apt to bite dogs. I worked for the great MO puppy mill when I was a teenager, I thought it was just a cool place with loads of puppies, however, the black chow puppy was the first one to bite your hand when you reached in the cage over any other breed!

In my opinion, it has always been, IF a Pit or a Rot bites a child, due to the size of the dog and the size of the dogs mouth and amount of pressure they obviously have, it causes more damage to the child. Also, keeping in mind, a 5 year old child is more likely to stand eye to eye with many of these larger dogs and of course the face is the first to get bit. If it was a poodle, they would still be bitten by a dog, however chances are it would be on their leg or hand and not as severe. With this in mind, GSD would fall into this same category because of their size and bite strength. If almost any other dog has a bad moment, someone may get bitten, but will not be maimed for life or killed, and the actuarial risk is accordingly reasonable. If a pit bull terrier or a Rottweiler has a bad moment, often someone is maimed or killed--and that has now created off-the-chart actuarial risk, for which the dogs as well as their victims are paying the price. 

There are all kinds of studies out there and depending on what the writer is hopeing to achieve with the study, the results vary. In the 70's dobs were pretty popular, hence the increase in dob bites. Same goes for the pits, as the popularity increases and there are more to watch, people are watching them. 

Over 50 percent of the bites occur on the dog owner's property. (See Insurance Information Institute, Dog Bite Liability, accessed 8/30/07.) The vast majority of biting dogs (77%) belong to the victim's family or a friend. However, while banning the pit bull might lower the number of human deaths, such a ban would probably not reduce the number dog bites in any significant manner.

The most horrifying example of the lack of breed predictability is the October 2000 death of a 6-week-old baby, which was killed by her family's Pomeranian dog. The average weight of a Pomeranian is about 4 pounds, and they are not thought of as a dangerous breed. Note, however, that they were bred to be watchdogs! The baby's uncle left the infant and the dog on a bed while the uncle prepared her bottle in the kitchen. Upon his return, the dog was mauling the baby, who died shortly afterwards. ("Baby Girl Killed by Family Dog," Los Angeles Times, Monday, October 9, 2000, Home Edition, Metro Section, Page B-5.) 

So, even though it may be a matter of training of both the dog and the child, accidents do happen. Just some stats from the reports that are out there.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNite YES, Pits were bred to attack other dogs but my daughter likes to pretend she is a dog all the time. I just worry.


i can get on my knees and crawl around barking right now... i guarantee you my dogs still know that i'm not of the same species


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

WOW Dorian!!!! that is nuts! A pom? 

This is one of the reasons I created this post, I know I am out of sorts because I have lost my entire family... I don't want to seem too over protective, but I AM!!! Please forgive me because a part of me thinks that I am going to do something wrong and I will lose her to a simple thing as letting her play at her friends house who has a pit. 

My sister's ER description of the after math seriously made me not to EVER want my daughter around a pit bull EVER. That is why I was asking opinions here about if it's the breed or the way they are raised?


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: StarryNite YES, Pits were bred to attack other dogs but my daughter likes to pretend she is a dog all the time. I just worry.
> ...


When I do that my dogs give me the head tilt with the look of "Do we need to call an ambulance? Are you ok?"

LOL


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

LOL GSDolch


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

It's the way they are raised. The so called "well adjusted, great pet" that out of the blue ripped someone apart is a crock of [email protected]$%#. Those are the cases of really stupid owners that have raised an unreliable dog that just hasn't done anything horrible yet and don't supervise kids or other people around their dog. 

We just had one of these cases here in town where the family kept an intact male and female pit chained in their basement and did nothing with them other than throw food at them. I don't think they ever went outside even to potty. The male had nipped a few times, but the family didn't think anything of it. One day the little kid went down there unsupervised while the bitch was in heat and did who knows what to the male. The male snapped and bit the kid in the face. The press got ahold of this and about all they said was it was a pit and a family dog that had no history of problems and it just bit the kid out of the blue. The press totally blamed the dog, not the people for the lack of exercise, training, mental stimulation, and supervision. Idiots!

Maybe you haven't noticed the ground swell of breed specific dog laws across the country? These are a knee jerk reaction to whatever poor breed that was put in just that situation and someone was badly hurt that got into the press, then the stupid general public decides that all dogs of that breed are unreliable and should be banned. If you will look at these breeds, some of them are aimed at an amazing number of breeds, including labs, that no one would consider as dangerous.

Unfortunately for pits, they are the breed of choice for the under belly of society which dramatically increases the chance of something bad to happen involving them.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

it just dawned on me... what parent is going to admit "we noticed signs that our dog wasn't trustworthy around our children, but we were stupid and left them unsupervised anyway" NO, they're gonna say "omg, this is the first time anything like this has ever happened and we never saw it coming. Sasha has always been kind and gentle with the kids, we're in shock!"


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I agree you should accompany your daughter to her friend's house the first few visits, talk to his parents. 

My sister always had a rule with her three kids that none of their friends could enter the house or play in the yard until the dogs were put up. Maybe your daughter's friend's family has the same rule or would be willing to lock the dog up when she's playing there?


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I was bit by a pom when I was a kid. He bit me in the face and it was ugly. My parents took me to the hospital and told me that's what I get for not being careful.









I've worked in insurance for years. First, most bites to children are by their own dogs or dogs they know well (a close family member usually). Then, the serious bites are by small dogs, like that stupid pom that bit me (his name was Willie. Who names a dog Willie? Anyhow, I digress...) Why? Because kids pick them up and hold them CLOSE TO THEIR FACES. Facial lacerations are serious bites that cause lots of scarring. They cause kids to lose eyes, lips and the tips of their noses. Serious stuff.

Of course, I've handled bites by large dogs. But few rotts or pit bulls. 

But to watch our evening news, you would think that only pitbulls bit kids. There was an episode a couple years ago where a toddler was attacked as he wandered unattended across a man's yard. The guy had 5-6 dogs and the dogs killed the little guy. The news shouted PIT BULL attack! Pit Bulls Kill child!

After animal control rounded up the dogs, it turns out that there was an aussie, a cattle dog, a lab mix, something else, and a bully breed dog -- likely an APBT mix. The news never reported a correction on the front page. I followed the story and suddenly, one day, it just said what each of the dogs were-- no mention that they had reported the breeds of the other 4 dogs wrong.

I guess we need to be afraid of aussies and heelers as well....? 

When you count em all up, GSDs are one of the breeds most likely to bite. But GSDs are one of the most popular breeds in the USA so on a percentage basis, they don't bite that often. But I"ve had tell me that this doesn't matter. They bite and should be regulated (aka banned). Seriously. I belong to a non-dog forum, and about 60% of the people there think that breed bans of "aggressive" breeds are a good thing, and that includes our beloved breed.

Unfortunately, people base these opinions on information that is inaccurate and incomplete.

It isn't just "how you raise them." We here all know -- or should know -- that temperament is genetic. Training and a controlled environment manages the GSD with very weak nerves, but he should never be considered 100% reliable around children for example. I'm sure there are numerous lines of APBT that are questionable as well. 

But for me, the term "pit bull" makes me very nervous. There is no "pit bull" breed. Which of these http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/ do you consider a pitbull? I don't ask this rhetorically. It's a reasonable question. While you probably don't think of a boxer as a pitbull, a lot of people assume that any dog with a round head, small ears and a smooth coat is one. So what good are the statistics we do have when lay people are often the ones that describe the dog that bit them? 

I admit I speak with bias. I had a bull terrier mix that I adopted from the pound who was a great dog. I didn't know that I should have been concerned about adopting her. In fact, a couple months after I brought her home, she and my other girl got into a good argument/fight. I broke it up quickly and they never fought again. Apparently, I shouldn't have been able to pull her off and she shouldn't have been trustworthy. Apparently, she hadn't read all of the press. I hadn't either. I was working in insurance claims, but hadn't seen anything that told me that bully breed dogs were less safe than any other. 

Sixteen years later, I've seen/heard all of the "data," and I'm not convinced.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteThat I don't personally know and even then.... Okay, I KNOW I am going to get a lot of negative comments on this post but I am just being honest and just not comfortable to let my 5 year old go to friends homes who have pit bulls. I know it's about how they are raised, etc. but they also were bred for what they were bred for and you just never know.


When I was training, we saw a lot of dogs that folks would consider pit bulls. We also saw a lot of rescue pits. 

Unless the dog was actually used for fighting, we never saw any of the problems that the stereotype would warn us about. We saw more problems from other breeds in terms of biting....I was bit by a Great Dane, and the next week refused to deal with the Chihuahua that was a biter. 

The pits that came from rescue, that had been used for fighting, were typically the ones used as bait dogs (I suspect that the fighters were euthanized). I would say for as many pits that are willing to bite without being taught and forced to, they are far outnumbered by the pits that refuse to fight.

If you are nervous about ANY dog over a house where your kid plays, go meet the dog, get to know it, try to play with it, see what kind of temperament it has. Teach your kid how to safely play around any dog.

My GSD Max is such a people friendly dog, loves kids and loves people, but if anyone, particularly a kid, turns and runs, he will chase and grab them, that's what he was taught before he got here. The smaller the kid, the more dangerous that grab will be because of their size. Max is probably more dangerous to smaller kids than any pitt I have ever met.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodderit just dawned on me... what parent is going to admit "we noticed signs that our dog wasn't trustworthy around our children, but we were stupid and left them unsupervised anyway" NO, they're gonna say "omg, this is the first time anything like this has ever happened and we never saw it coming. Sasha has always been kind and gentle with the kids, we're in shock!"


I so agree with this......


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think the issues may be missed here.

The issue is that the problem isn't the breed of the dog, but the problem is that you don't trust this family and how they will raise the dog. A pit is capable of doing more damage than a chihuahua if they bite, which is a concern, so you are more concerned about this family and how they will raise this dog. But I suspect that if this family even had some kind of terrier or even dogs like heelers or cocker spaniels, or a bunch of other breeds, you should have the same concern.

I think, given what you have said about this family before, if you are right, then that's a very valid concern.

However, I've seen pits take a lot of abuse and still be great dogs. Just like any dog. 

Get to know the dog. Don't make your daughter fear the dog, but respect it and treat it with kindness. Teach her to keep her face away from the dog, not to turn and run, etc. Trust has to be built..

Chances are, this dog will be raised with the kids. The dog will hang out with the kids, and be as unsupervised as the kids, and will most likely be a great caretaker and protector of them.


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## K9tyson (Oct 23, 2009)

Honestly, this is a ridiculous post, as well as most of these posts are. Do you really need to post on a forum to decide whether or not your daughter goes to play at a friends house? I mean come on, if it was any other dog besides a pit bull would you be concerned,most likely, NO not at all......if you don't feel comfortable sending your kid to this house then don't, enough of these pointless postings, you obviously have your mind made up. 



Just to add, this is my opinion, so before you guys all bash me for being harsh, just think about it.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I always find it quite ironic when I see these posts about the safey of sending your family to a house with ______ breed when we all own GSDs. They have a reputation, too, you know. And a lot of the time it isn't much more glowing that that of the "pit dog. 

The one and only time I have ever been bit by a dog (other than "play" biting or mouthing was when I was about 7. I was doing the sort of palm up chest scratch when he suddenly went after me. He was a bit moody, so I probably shouldn't have been touching in in the first place. But to this day, I really can't stand small dogs. I'm nice enough to them, obviously, and will pet and even puppy sit them occasionally. But when I say that I will NEVER own a purse/lap dog (one that is actually the size to fit on the lap, not one that thinks they do)....it's not just cause I love my GSD!


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> I guess we need to be afraid of aussies and heelers as well....?


Very good points made! I live in farm country, I made a post the other day about the dogs here riding into town in the back of trucks. This is not a joke! I promise you, I would walk up to a pbt to pet him on the back of a truck faster then I would a Healer! They do more bites around here then any other breed.

On a side note, to go with what I had said about when a Bully breed bites, In the health section, how many posts are made about a normally calm and loving GSD becomeing suddenly more "aggresive" and most of the advice sent in from this forum is, run a vet check, see if there is something wrong, or a cbc or maybe it is pain? I think that the bottom line in this subject with ALL breeds, including our own GSD's is, when we are dealing with a child and an animal, any animal, we need to stay on our toes. We need to make sure we teach that child the body language a dog exibits and know when to back away. If you are concearned about both sides of the coin, the dog as well as the child being angry for not letting it play with their friends, then supervise the visit with the friend. Let them have play dates. Maybe, the family of the other child is worried about you owning a GSD as they ultimately want to protect their family as well.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

If I had a kid, I would want to see 9.9 out of 10 dogs put away while visitors were over. I would want that for the dog's safety more than the child, really. 

You said your kid acts like a dog, I know what you mean, and also know that some dogs don't like that. I have dogs who don't. I don't allow them near kids, but I know my dogs. 

If you don't trust the way these people raise their kids, I wouldn't trust the way they raise their dogs and wouldn't trust them to know the signs that their dog doesn't love kids like they think it does. 

I wouldn't let my kid go over regardless of breed. I would think of it as helping the dog. They can come to your house (I had friends like that growing up-great kids but my parents didn't allow me to go their homes) and you can put your dog up. 

Easy peasy!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

definitely don't let your daughter around her friends
Pit Bull if you think the dog is being raised in the wrong
enviroment. 

you don't have to answer to you have a GSD
and you don't want your daughter around Pit Bulls. you
don't want your daughter around Pit Bulls that's
it, period. 

i never liked Pit Bulls but they started to grow
on me. i have friends with them and all of their
Pits are super friendly towards people and other dogs.
there was a Pit puppy in my dogs puppy class.
there's several Pits at the dog park that we go to.
the Pits that we encountered were friendly.


> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteOne of the reasons I am leaving this post is that my daughter's best friends just got a pup Pit Bull and I know it is not the right environment for that dog.
> 
> And then, how can I say to them "I don't want my daughter around a pit bull" when I have a GSD? Sorry, just venting, but wanted to run it by you all


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: K9tysonHonestly, this is a ridiculous post, as well as most of these posts are. Do you really need to post on a forum to decide whether or not your daughter goes to play at a friends house? I mean come on, if it was any other dog besides a pit bull would you be concerned,most likely, NO not at all......if you don't feel comfortable sending your kid to this house then don't, enough of these pointless postings, you obviously have your mind made up.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to add, this is my opinion, so before you guys all bash me for being harsh, just think about it.



Well, I won't bash you that would not be nice







....... I kind of agree with you. but maybe you could have been a little more gentle.







Spoken by the Queen of PC.














NOT!!! 

Really, I think the basis of this is do you trust the family? It sounds as if you don't, so don't let the kid visit unless you go with as others have said. I also think that if the kids come to your house you should insure your dog is out of harms way and well supervised as well. 

I have had GSD's for 20 plus years now and have never been bit by my own dog. My mother bred toy poodles and I can tell you I have a few punctures from them. I have also been bit by a Pit Bull that "never was a problem- this is the very first time she ever did that!" The dog was chained in a yard, unsocialized and under exercised. it brook it's chain and went after my dog (Max) I got in the way and got bitten in my leg.

I would still let my kid around a calm pit like I would any calm dog.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My feeling is, if the OP is uncomfortable with having her daughter around a 'certain' breed of dog, than she shouldn't be around that breed.

There are certainly many nice pit's out there. I personally just wouldn't want my child around any type of dog if I wasn't familiar with the owners AND the dog. Could be a yorkie thru great dane, it's not the breed, it's the individual dog.

I don't have kids, and the dogs I have right now, are not real comfortable around small kids, so for the dog AND child's safety if any are here visiting, the dogs are separated from them.

My sister's papillon is apt to bite a child before my gsd would.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqI wish I could remember where I saw it, but I was reading something recently where Pit Bulls are one of the top scoring breeds on temperament tests.


I went to an ATTS temperament test in Texas this year and there were a lot of pit bulls and pit bull mixes there. They all did great. But I remember one female pit bull, during the final segment of the test, turned around and ran so fast that her owner fell to the ground. If you don't know, the final segment is when a man comes at you yelling and threatening with a stick. That little girl was terrified of the man.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

My understanding is they are bred to fight dogs. Any dog showing aggression towards people was immediately euthanized. It was "culling" the bad out of the breed. They, at one time, were one of the safest dogs to have as a pet. The dog on The Little Rascals was a pitbull.

Now, like any popular breed, backyard breeders without a clue or a care have not upheld the standards of the breed. Some of them are now unstable through poor breeding. Our neighbors had one raised with love and care with never a problem...until the day it tore the hindquarters off a horse. 

We have ppl over the hill who have back to back litters from one bitch. Puppies are $150. Do you think they have been temperment tested to the standard? Nope! Would I let a 5 year old around them, taking into consideration what can happen? No Way, No How!!


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

I worry more about Pitbull owners than Pitbulls. Is it a Pre requisit to walk around like a BAD --- around town when you have a Pitbull?
thanks to some Pitbull owners they are banned in some areas as well as Military posts and yes i know about the ban on GSD's on some installations however i dont blame anyone for keeping their children away from them.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

I know quite a few pitbulls. None of them are people friendly.
And one is not dog friendly.

But as prejudged as it sounds, I just dont really like them.
BUT thats my HO.

If you are not comfortable, dont let her go there.
Kilo is EXCELLENT with children but I would NEVER leave him & a small child alone.
He tends to chase people & bring them down when they run. Its all play, but he could hurt a small child like that. (BAD I KNOW)
I did not teach him that.

If the family is nice, maybe you can ask to keep kids & dogs seperated.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

i agree with you and i don't think you' re harsh in the least.



> Originally Posted By: K9tysonHonestly, this is a ridiculous post, as well as most of these posts are. Do you really need to post on a forum to decide whether or not your daughter goes to play at a friends house? I mean come on, if it was any other dog besides a pit bull would you be concerned,most likely, NO not at all......if you don't feel comfortable sending your kid to this house then don't, enough of these pointless postings, you obviously have your mind made up.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to add, this is my opinion, so before you guys all bash me for being harsh, just think about it.


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## AllisonS (Oct 16, 2007)

Mine's a Pit MIX but she looks really Pitty. She was a rescue that had been abused. Horribly. She has a slit across her neck to prove it. She also spent at least 2 years being shuffled from kill shelter to no kill shelter.

That being said...she's the SWEETEST baby you'd ever meet. She's very meek & everyone who comes in here falls in love with her because she insists on being loved, lol. 

My 7 year old does "happy dog, sad dog" with her where she moves her lips up & down. The dog is just happy to be touched.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Did you say this dog is a pup? 

I highly suggest you go to the home, after making a meeting arrangement, and check the dog out yourself. Let them know you just aren't sure, as silly as it is, and need them to reaffirm it that the dog is safe. Ask if they mind you just generally checking him out, say for FA and such... A good, understanding person would not say no. And I wouldn't want my kid alone with someone who wasn't good and understanding. If you must, LIE, tell them you've been viciously attacked by a pit bull and have heard nothing but bad things, and will NOT feel remotely safe without checking the dog out. Ask them where they got it, if it's from a good breeder what lines, is it from game lines(I doubt, as you said it's not a good home for the dog), who they got it from... This is all important. Some lines are more capable of human problems than others, say if this is an American Bully rather than a APBT or AmStaff. 

Genetics have more to do with HA than how they are raised. HA in these dogs, true human aggression, is very rare. The dogmen had to be in the pit, many times LYING next to them, face right in there to make sure nobody fanged them self or what have you. The dogs could never redirect their aggression or they would be pushing up daisies.

If they get on you about your dog, just say you've never had a problem with the breed. I know plenty of bulldog owners who hate GSDs.

As far as the media goes, as said, a 'pit bull' is any dog with shortish hair, and a stocky build, perhaps a wedge-shaped head. I've seen a patterdale terrier(maybe mixed with some slightly larger, longer haired breed), a cattle dog mix, a PURE LAB, a GSD/Rottie, and a long haired dog picked up (by myself) and written down as a "pit Bull X " by Animal control. Recently there was a story about a "pit bull" fight that broke out in a family's yard, four-fie dogs, the most vicious was a huge 100+lb pit, which then turned on it's owner, they had to kill it to get it off of her. Well, the one photo they showed of him looked just about like a Chesapeake Bay Retriever, ever had the longer hair, and was fat. Due to the size it may have very well had a bull breed, but if I had to guess I'd say American Bully Or an American Bulldog.

This is very informative. I suggest some of you watch it. Some of the info from the ACO's an such is wrong, but if you get over it you'll learn something about the breed and what goes on. This is hard as HECK to watch for most, but I think it would truly open the eyes of many here. And the main guy with the disguise on is an A-Hole, by the way, but he's informed more than most. This is a Movie call Off The Chain.

** Video links removed per request of poster. Content not suitable for children. If people would like to view this video, please contact poster via PM. ADMIN **


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## CindyM (Mar 20, 2007)

The fact that you said the dog is no in a good environment is very concerning. I'd be more concerned with the humans that I didn't know


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

What a complicated issue! But definately worth discussing. My daughter is 4 and does very well with our dogs and I am comfortable with how they behave around her. Actually I would be comfortable with someone else's kids around them for the most part. When we have a friend over, I tell the parents about my dogs and assure them that the dogs will be outside or in their crates while the child is in my home. Surprisingly however they usually say that is not neccessary and their kid loves dogs.....but still I confine the dogs. 
I will usually let Sasha or Blitz in if okayed by parents because they are very gentle and well behaved around children. this is closely supervised and dog is leashed. After the introduction I will put the dog back out or in the crate while the kids play. I just want to be safe and not worry that an unsupervised moment goes wrong.

The friends my daughter has visited with a dog have also offered to confine the dog unless I am comfortable with it loose and I do say I would rather have it confined unless I am staying there, even if it is a lab or poodle etc.! I would just tell them that your daughter cannot be unsupervised around strange dogs. Maybe even say you are just being paranoid and tell them how cautious you are with your own dog as well. You are protecting your child and I don't think any parent would have a problem with that. I could be wrong...... 

I don't know about pits though. I totally see where you are coming from and feel much the same way. I DO think there is far more to this issue than just "how they are raised" But I am also wary of ANY dog that I do not know well. I have met many pits that were wonderfully sweet dogs and really seemed to love people. But I feel like you can never be 100% sure of what will trigger their wild animal aggressive brain into action. And of course that goes for any dog, but pits seem to really go for the kill instead of just make a point. I am not an expert and have not owned a pit, but I have volunteered and worked in shelters and gotten to know a few. I would not bring one into my home with my daughrter and other animals. But there are several other breeds I would not have for similar reasons as well.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

http://www.atts.org/stats1.html

APBT and AST are on that page.

If it truly bothers you too much, please, from now on ask all other parents to lock their dogs up before your kid comes over, and do the same for them because they'll expect it... More importantly talk long and often with your daughter about dog safety, but not to the point she'll ben nervous with other dogs... It seems nobody does this anymore. 


I have to ask, why do you say this is the wrong home for the pup? 


Now... If there is a breed you shouldn't let you kids around, and you would like to see it... Google "Bully Kutta" LOL


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

When my shepherd and i were attacked by the yorkie (twice, a year apart)..I reported the second one as i do believe ryder fatally got ahold of it...But we were laughed at because we got attacked by a yorkie...And it was getting to where it was blamed on us even though we didn't do anything wrong...But because ryder was the bigger dog he got the blame...We have been working with ryder ever since with the leave it...

I think pittys are gorgeous beautiful dogs, but would i own one? No. Would i leave my kids in a house with one? No..
Just because i don't trust them...I know it is judging the animal, and i am sorry but thats just me. I dont trust my sister chi either she bit me coming in the house the other day. Not hard just a little nip but enough to get my attention.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

The documentary I posted actually doesn't give a whole lot on the HISTORY of the breed, but it goes to show how amazing they are with people, even under the most dire situations. And ugh the man with the mask just ticks me off every time I see his wannabe butt, he's in it for money and nothing else, he cheats too, but sharpening his dog's teeth, so that, my friends, is the scum of this trade you get to look at.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Lisa,

If your daughter wants to play with her friend, let them play at your house. If you have any questions about how the little boy is being raised, why not ask the parents, or at least the mother, over for coffee after school or kindergarten or whatever and get to know each other. Once the parents have a speaking relationship, it's a lot easier to make a judgment about the dog.

You really want to have a policy about where and with whom your daughter goes, because she will be more and more outside your home.

good luck


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: amd1When my shepherd and i were attacked by the yorkie (twice, a year apart)..I reported the second one as i do believe ryder fatally got ahold of it...But we were laughed at because we got attacked by a yorkie...And it was getting to where it was blamed on us even though we didn't do anything wrong...But because ryder was the bigger dog he got the blame...We have been working with ryder ever since with the leave it...
> 
> I think pittys are gorgeous beautiful dogs, but would i own one? No. Would i leave my kids in a house with one? No..
> Just because i don't trust them...I know it is judging the animal, and i am sorry but thats just me. I dont trust my sister chi either she bit me coming in the house the other day. Not hard just a little nip but enough to get my attention.


Yes indeed, I've been rushed and nipped and bitten by so many small dogs, as have my dogs, but AC just laughs...

Would you leave your kids with Ryder alone? You know Snoopy had the very look of a "pit Bull"? You had one.


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## Shandril2 (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNite..... I want to feel comfortable having my daughter around them but I just don't right now.* After what my sister told me I am terrified to have my daughter around any Pitt. Am I wrong? *sigh**
> 
> Please give me more than "it's how they are raised" because I have seen that is not nec. true from numerous reports. One of the reasons I am leaving this post is that my daughter's best friends just got a pup Pit Bull and I know it is not the right environment for that dog.
> 
> And then, how can I say to them "I don't want my daughter around a pit bull" when I have a GSD? Sorry, just venting, but wanted to run it by you all


No, you are not wrong.
Your number one responsibility is your child's safety. _Parents have a gut instinct _... follow it! 
Doesn't matter the dog, what matters is that you don't take chances with your child's well being.

Period.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> 
> Genetics have more to do with HA than how they are raised. HA in these dogs, true human aggression, is very rare.



How do you explain this?

"according to the Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes are responsible for 74% of attacks that were included in the study, 68% of the attacks upon children, 82% of the attacks upon adults, 65% of the deaths, and 68% of the maimings. In more than two-thirds of the cases included in the study, the life-threatening or fatal attack was apparently the first known dangerous behavior by the animal in question."

Not trying to be rude, but MAIMING someone to death is HA.
& from these statistics its pretty common.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:And of course that goes for any dog, but pits seem to really go for the kill instead of just make a point. I am not an expert and have not owned a pit, but I have volunteered and worked in shelters and gotten to know a few.


In my time in shelters, I have found that Pits (and by this I mean those bully breeds with a history of being bred for fighting) sometimes have issues with other dogs (although most do not) but rarely have issues with people. And this includes a lot of dogs from pretty rough backgrounds. Most are good tempered, handle stressors well, and are very tolerant. Sadly I cannot say the same for many of the GSDs. Much as I love Shepherds, I have found them to be far more likely to bite strangers/guests than any of the bully breeds. 

As a mom, I worry about any number of things that might happen to my child while in someone else's care. If I don't trust their judgement with their dog, I likely also don't trust their judgement in other areas as well - do they have any weapons in the home and how are they secured? What about other household dangers? Cleaning supplies, medicines, hot items on the stove etc. If the kids are playing outside will they be adequately supervised? Kept out of roads, away from bodies of water etc. If they go somewhere is the other parent a safe driver? Do they insist the kids wear seatbelts? And the list goes on. Lots of things to worry about! To me, the breed of dog they own is the least of the issues, it's their judgement and their standards of care that I need to know about.

As far as having kids here, I put the dogs up. My dogs (well, my Shepherds at least) like kids but accidents happen, even when a dog isn't being at all aggressive (for example, kid is playing with dog and waving a dog toy around, dog jumps up to catch it and nicks the kid in the hand or face). For my dogs' protection as much as the guest's, I think it's just safer not to risk it.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLovehttp://www.atts.org/stats1.html
> 
> APBT and AST are on that page.
> 
> ...



YAh








Those are scary!!!!!!!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> ...


Aye. Do you know how many pit bull dogs there are? They account for 80% of shelter dogs. As I said, I've never seen a dog in a human attack that was a pure, registered APBT. And on the rare times they show a picture of the dog headlines with "pit bull attack" it is not an APBT to say the least.

I just said, any dog with shortish hair, muscles, and sometimes a wedge head is a pit bull. do you know how many dogs look like that? MY animal control come to pick up an animal I found injured, I had J as a pup, and they asked what line of pit he was. There are SO many breeds being called pit bulls it's ridiculous... only a few (pure bred, not mutts) that come to mind are APBTs, American Staffs, American Bullies, American Bulldogs, Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldogs.... Take a look, which of these is an APBT?
http://www.mabbr.org/legislation4.html
If one of those, though in some cases the breed is obvious, mauled a kid, everyone would be screaming pit bull. WHICH IS NOT A BREED.





> Originally Posted By: Angel R
> 
> YAh :rofl:
> Those are scary!!!!!!!


I think they are beautiful, but don't breed true, anyone I've spoken with said they are good with the family, but are dog and human aggressive... wouldn't want one, that's for sure.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:How do you explain this?


There are a couple things that need to be considered when evaluating those statistics.

1. Tallies are only recorded for dogs identified on the report by breed and has been mentioned in this thread, many dogs are being incorrectly identified as "Pit Bulls" which artificially raises their numbers.

2. Bite stats are going to, on some level, reflect overall dog numbers in the population. If there are a lot of dogs of a certain breed out there, they are going to account for more of the bites than a rare breed. Let's say there's some rare breed of which there are only 50 individuals in the US. And let's say that 10 of them attack people. In contrast, you have a super common breed with hundreds of thousands of individuals and 500 of them are listed in dog attacks. Which breed is more dangerous? The common breed accounts for way more of the attacks, but a much lower percentage of the breed are acting aggressively. Truthfully, the rare breed is more dangerous because 20% of them are displaying aggression, but if you just look at the bite statisics, you wouldn't realize that. 

3. There are certain factors that increase the chances of a dog attack - factors like chaining, lack of socialization, etc. Dogs of certain breeds, such as Pit Bull types and Rotties are disproportionately more likely to be kept in those kinds of situations so therefore more likely to be involved in attacks but it doesn't actually have anything to do with their breed per se. If another breed became popular in those circles, you'd see their bite stats go up too. 

4. Finally, as Camerafodder and a couple others mention, people aren't going to admit that there was a history of aggressive behavior because it's going to open them up to all kinds of liability issues. Just because it was the "first known dangerous behavior" doesn't actually mean it was the first sign of dangerous behavior. Same thing applies to their own responsibility- they aren't likely to say that they weren't supervising the child or dog, or that there were other risk factors (drugs, abuse etc). 

I think there's a natural inclination to hear the news story or read the report and imagine the scenarios as happening in a similar siutation to our own - a dog that is cared for like our own, a family like our own. So we think of a Pit Bull who is living a life like our GSD and the only difference is breed, so then we infer that the breed must be more aggressive or dangerous. But while beloved family pets (of all breeds) do sometimes bite, that's not what most of those reports are actually reflecting. 

Hope that helps!


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Lovely post, Pup!


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteOkay, a "for instance". She wants to go play at her friend Diego's home, they have a full grown pit. I don't know the family or the dog, should I let her go play there?


I would not let my child play at another childs' house if I did not know ther family even if they did not have a dog. If I knew the family I would have to be sure they would never have the dog unsupervised around my child. When my kids were little most of their friends just came to our house where I could keep an eye on things


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteOkay, a "for instance". She wants to go play at her friend Diego's home, they have a full grown pit. I don't know the family or the dog, should I let her go play there?


As everyone has said... HECK with the dog, you don't know the two-legged naked ones, forget it. My parents made that mistake when I was about eight, and ended up sending me to a crazy house... Funnily enough they had a female bulldog and a male shepherd mix, both chained, the male had BAD cherry eye and the bulldog was otherwise healthy, both were great... But they had a 'bum' living with them who was darn creepy to say the least, and I found nude pics of 300lb mom in the daughters room... They turned out to be real aholes. The father used bricks on the bulldogs legs when she jumped the fence, he'd "Break 'em up good" in his words so she could not jump. Even in her painful state she'd let me cuddle up with her on her chain setup.


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

Would you leave your kids with Ryder alone? You know Snoopy had the very look of a "pit Bull"? You had one. [/quote] 

Yes I would leave my kids alone with ryder...without a second thought... However if we have other children over i watch him very closely... 
Yes i am aware that snoop looked like a "pit bull", However because he tried to snip my kids on two different occasions the decision was made to rehome him...He found a wonderful home 45 minutes from me, and is the only dog, inside, spoiled rotten..to a single hard working gentleman that snoopy just loved on. So i feel very blessed to have found that match for him....We have another pup though that we had when we had snoopy, and his mother is Full Blood cocker spaniel, and she said daddy was lab (had recently died) and she showed me a pic of him...He was huge, filled the entire loveseat he layed down on, to me he looked great daneish... And Dane did at first look like one, however he has changed so much, and he is not getting big at all...But i am starting to think he has pitty in him...Doesn't matter, he is just a lovable, spastic, pup....whom is very treat motivated...


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Woah, woah.. Let me get off topic... Your kids are older, right? Please, for goodness sake, unless they are teens, don't leave them alone with a large dog, no matter how much of a marshmallow he is.. 


Sorry to get off topic.


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## Shandril2 (Nov 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteBut then how can I say that she can't play there and he can play here when I have a GSD? ...


You say "She can't play there".

Why do you have to explain yourself?


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## Ryder&SophieSue (Nov 25, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLoveWoah, woah.. Let me get off topic... Your kids are older, right? Please, for goodness sake, unless they are teens, don't leave them alone with a large dog, no matter how much of a marshmallow he is..
> 
> 
> Sorry to get off topic.


I don't usually, leave them with him....My kids are 14, 11 and 6...Like especially when the girls are outside playing, ryder has to be out with them, or if they come in, he comes in as well...He does not like to be separated from his girls at all. He usually sleeps in our room with my hubby and i, but like last night when the kids camp out in the living room, o know i can shut my door all the way casue ryder will sleep with the girls in the living room...he is such a putz sometimes.


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## CindyM (Mar 20, 2007)

bricks to break the dogs legs so she couldn't jump the fence... how horrible and sad


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

she definitely should be concerned about the dog (any kind of dog). how can the dog be a non-factor?



> Originally Posted By: Betsytruly the issue should be whether you trust the family with your child's welfare, and not what kind of a puppy they have. If they are good trustworthy people, then the dog should be a non issue, also, I think if you look at the statistitics in dog attacks, the majority are caused by unaltered animals. I just went round and round on this somewhere else. But I have known several pitts and they were very good with the kids.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: CindyMbricks to break the dogs legs so she couldn't jump the fence... how horrible and sad


Yeah. I was too scared to say anything about it and I didn't even know what animal control was at that age...I think her name was Jewel, I feel guilty sometimes for not telling someone, but I just didn't know what to do.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Personally I wouldn't trust ANY dog that I didnt know extremely well, when children are involved. BUT if I had to choose a breed to interact with children I would choose a "pit bull" (and the only dogs I am referring to are the ones that DO hold true to standard). There are bad representations of every breed, and due to the popularity of "pit bulls" they are vastly overbred which creates problems. But I would trust a well bred "pit bull" over other breeds likes Rotties, Dobes, GSD's ect. 

I had a APBT when I was 6 (or so) named Jessica. Growing up with Dobes my family were very hesitant to have me around the dogs for too long, but with Jessica they trusted her. I would sit on the floor with her for hours, using her as my pillow while I watched TV. One day the neighbors opened our yard and let their two pits in our yard, and used Jessica as bait. Once my grandmother got to her she was torn up pretty bad. I ran out in a fury and got to Jessica before someone could pull me away (she was severly injured, and we all know how dogs can respond when they are in survival mode, of course _*I *_didnt know that at the time). I threw myself on her (her uninjured parts) and started sobbing, and she did not react one bit. I now know that situation could have ended badly for me, but it didnt. Jessica layed there basically with her insides hanging out, and knew she needed to comfort her "child" (though she was the one physically injured), while she licked my face and whined assuring me everything would be ok. When I hear the term "pit bull", Jessica is what comes to mind. I will not allow all these horror stories, and poorly bred pits ruin the image my Jessica left for me.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> But for me, the term "pit bull" makes me very nervous. There is no "pit bull" breed. Which of these http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/ do you consider a pitbull? I don't ask this rhetorically. It's a reasonable question. While you probably don't think of a boxer as a pitbull, a lot of people assume that any dog with a round head, small ears and a smooth coat is one. So what good are the statistics we do have when lay people are often the ones that describe the dog that bit them?


That's part of the problem with the statistics.

First you have to realize that there isn't a dog expert going around checking what breed of dog bit someone. The statistics go by the reports they are given on the bites, and they often don't list the right breed. I mean look at the threads about strangers asking if someone's German Shepherd is a Wolf, or a Belgian Shepherd, etc... Many people will call anything with a wide head a "pit bull" and the bites are often reported by the person who was bitten or a family member who are probably distraught and probably do not know what an American Pit Bull Terrier looks like. I mean heck I had a foster Chinese Shar-Pei and I had multiple people ask if he was a pit bull! Here's a photo of him. 
People always asked if my 23 lb. terrier mix (mostly Rat Terrier, maybe part Boston?) was a pit bull as well. Here's a pic. One lady was CONVINCED he was a "pit bull" and refused to go near him...as she was loving on my friend's Husky mix who definitely had some bully breed in her!

Then you have to take into account the numbers of the breed and popularity. "Pit bulls" are very popular right now, so there are a lot of them around, meaning the percentage which have bitten is lower. 

Add to that the fact that so many breeds may be called "pit bulls". When they say a German Shepherd bit someone, they are talking about a specific breed. When they say a "pit bull" that could be an American Pit Bull Terrier, an American Staffordshire Terrier, a Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and so on (there are quite a few rare breeds with bull-and-terrier ancestry as well) as well as mixes of any of those breeds which resemble them (and there are many mixes since the breeds are popular.)
Plus you have to add the other breeds commonly mistaken for a them such as the Bull Terrier, American Bulldog, English Bulldog, Boxer, Presa Canario, Dogo Argentino, Bullmastiff, Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, Fila Brasileiro, Cane Corso, Boerboel, and even sometimes blocky-headed Labs are mistaken for "pit bulls." Oh, plus any mixes of the above dogs.
If you look at the statistics while realizing that when they say "pit bull" it can refer to any of those breeds/mixes you can see the numbers in a different light.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I had a thought after I logged off last night.

A far larger threat to little kids isn't dogs, but humans. I'd rather my niece (since I don't have kids) be playing in a yard with her friend AND a nice large pit bull than the two kids be playing there by themselves. 

Obviously, the children should be supervised by adults. But sometimes, the phone rings, or the adult has to go to the bathroom; the kids end up being unsupervised for a couple of minutes, and one of the children end up going missing or older kids mess with them.









A pit bull (or a rott, GSD, mastiff, etc) is a wonderful deterrent from anyone messing with children. My little beagle will sound the alarm, but I don't know if someone would take her seriously (though she'd fight to her death to protect my nieces and nephews.). But a dog that's thought to be aggressive would almost certainly cause someone with bad intentions to just move along. 

When I go backpacking by myself, people always ask me if I'm afraid of bears and mountain lions. I tell them no; it's *humans* that are randomly aggressive and violent. I've always felt the same thing about dogs. They almost always tell you when they're feeling stressed; give you warning; and don't engage in violence for its own sake. 

Anyhow, that was my late-night realization.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I read the first post and that was it. I'll tell you what I know personally. For the American Pit Bull Terrier(APBT), they are extremely good with people IF BRED CORRECTLY and RAISED CORRECTLY. I have an APBT that has issues, not because of the way she was raised but because of ignorant breeders. She is great with most people but doesn't like kids. I understand this and manage it. Many people on her have met her and know her fairly well. They can all attest to her tempermant. She is TT'ed, CGC, BH, 2/3 CD, TDI and Delta certified therapy dog. I do not leave her unattended with kids at all period. 

Unfortunately the APBT breed draws the "bad" owners cause of their history. Every breed has a history, but the APBT has one of fighting other animals. These dogs were bred to be good with people as they did not want to get bit when seperating them in the pit. These dogs were bred for dog aggression and animal aggression as back in the day that is what they were used for. 

For me, it comes down to this, Genetics and Raising. Not all APBTs that are raised right, are good stable dogs. Not all APBTs that are raised wrong are bad dogs. 

Would you let your daughter play at this person's house, if they owned a GSD?? If the answer is yes, then go over adn talk to the girl's parents about the dog, tell them your concern and see what they say. Meet the dog. 

BTW- GSDs actually FAIL more TT tests than APBTs. APBTs have a higher PASS rate over some very common breeds. Also, Both breeds are targeted by BSL. It doesn't help when an owner of a breed that is targeted by BSL, stereotypes anotehr breed that is also affected by BSL. We don't like it when people do it to GSDs, so what's the difference with APBTs?? The only difference is that MORE UNEDUCATED IRRESPONSIBLE IDIOTS OWN APBTs than GSDs. 

Please take a look at some APBT websites and maybe read a book about them before judging them as you did. Ignorance is bliss. 

Courtney


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

VonKrome, me and PBC found some very nice informative links and sites, me and Starry had a nice chat VIA messaging.


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## Tbarrios333 (May 31, 2009)

I didn't read all the posts but I just wanted to chime in and say that pit bulls, and I use that term loosely because they're not all "pit bulls", were bred to prove themselves in the ring against other dogs. 
The term "pit bull" is often inaccurate but that's a whole other shibang. 

Because of this way of proving dogs, the owners had to trust their dogs 100% in the event that they lost and they had to pick them up off the floor and get them treated. We've all seen pictures of the condition these dogs are left in after a fight. 
As many of us know, dogs often respond with aggression when they are in pain, hence the reason why these breeders had to eliminate all aggression towards people.

Contrary to popular belief, the bully breeds are actually great with people. Some are now known as "Nanny dogs"-- they have a very high pain tolerance and are in fact, fantastic with children.









Of course, it's all about how they're raised. At the end of the day, bad owners give that great breed a bad rap.







The news often portrays any dog that bites someone as a pit bull, wether it was a GSD, Boxer, or poodle. 

It's one of my favorites. I grew up with "pit bulls" and I've never had any issues other than the stubbornness.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I think it is worth reviewing some data, <u>*CDC report on Dog Bite Related Fatalities *</u>, refer to page two.

GSDs account for 7% of fatalities, where Pit Bull-Type account for 27%. If you look at Pits and Rotts, they represent 44% of fatalities in about a 20 year period.

When you throw in Crossbreeds, GSDs jump up to 11%, where Pits, Rotts and their crossbreeds represent 50% of fatalities for the 20 year period.

One aspect of the discussion is nurture vs. nature, and I certainly believe how you raise a dog influences the issue at question, but genetics are genetics. Are we surprised when a Beagle barks at a rabbit, or a German Shorthair points at a quail? Why would we be surprised Pits or Rotts are aggressive?

I train SchH dogs, and I do not allow any of my five children to go anywhere without understanding the circumstances completely. If there is a dog, I access the dog, unless it is a Pit or Rott, then the answer is no, you can't go.


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## Raziel (Sep 29, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02I think it is worth reviewing some data, <u>*CDC report on Dog Bite Related Fatalities *</u>, refer to page two.
> 
> GSDs account for 7% of fatalities, where Pit Bull-Type account for 27%. If you look at Pits and Rotts, they represent 44% of fatalities in about a 20 year period.
> 
> ...


Thats the key word Wayne.
FATALITIES.
Thats NOT a bite on the arm or a tear into your leg.
Thats DEATH.
A mauling.
I steer clear of those breeds (pitbulls, rotties & any other dog that has "shakey nerves.")


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

My sister has a pit bull she rescued - I wish I had pics of her sleeping next to the baby! Her name is Sadie...an Angel - Love her to death. When I visit she sometimes is baby sitting Stella and Job - two other pits. When I met them for the first time Job, like any dog, gave me that little growl like "who are you?" and I greeting him properly. It wasn't 5 minutes and those dogs were sitting all over me and ended up sleeping on my side and legs when I fell asleep on the couch....imaging waking up to the "scary" pit bull snoring in your ear! LOL 

Pits just like Dobermans and German Shepherds have been the poster child of "bad dogs!" Well, people give them that name - and unfortunately, the breed suffers because of it. They need all the good press they can get and too many mixes that look like a pit that do bad things get the pits in "trouble" for just being a pit!

http://www.arottalove.org is a great org here in Minnesota, who helped us get Breed Specific Legislation turned down - today the Pits - tomorrow your breed.

Its the DEED NOT the BREED!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't have a child but I suppose if I did I'd be leery of him/her playing at the home of a family I did not know with ANY breed of dog being allowed out and not very closely supervised. When I was a kid, my friend's dog, a yellow lab, bit me (not an attack, more of a rough play/pushy kind of bite but painful and scary for a kid nonetheless) several times but at the time I thought it was my fault and was ashamed so I never told anyone, but never wanted to go to her house and would not leave the room without her if the dog was there. I never did tell them that the dog had jumped on me and mouthed/bit me when I went to the kitchen, but a few months later they "got rid" of the dog. I was also bit in the face by a GSD when I was a toddler. These bites were worse as far as the injuries, but I have no memory of this. So my experience is that kids are too young to be trusted or have the expectation that they know how to behave around other peoples' dogs and often other peoples' dogs have no training or manners either.

Likewise I do not let children play with my dogs even if I have no reason not to trust them. It's just not worth it. I let my little cousins command my dogs for some tricks (generally I give the treats depending on how "grabby" the dog is) or hold the leash while I walk WITH them but really only my sister who is my dogsitter and one of the older cousins are the only ones I trust with my dogs without my constant supervision and only because *I* have trained them how to handle *my* dogs.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Call me crazy, but I'd be more worried about my little child being molested by the father, brother, uncle, etc at a "stranger's" house than I would being bit by a pit bull puppy.

Let me just say that as a mother of five, my first instinct on this is to say, I never let ANY of my children go over to some random person's house without me to play at five years old. EVER. If it was not a well known, trusted family member or friend, my child was not being left ANYWHERE up until about the age of 7 or 8 and even then I'd have to actually go over and spend a little time getting to know the people first. None of my kids had extended visits or sleepovers until they were, like, 10 and those were people I knew fairly well.

Some of my kids are teenagers and I STILL will say to them when they want to go play at their friends, "I need to talk to their parent first" and actually go over, meet the people, etc. And if there is anything at all that sets me on edge or makes me uncomfortable (smoking, drinking, guns, scary dog, whatever) then I just say no. I allow their friends over here anytime. And I am not the least bit concerned about offending the other parents. I am not rude, but I just say no when my kid wants to go over there, but invite their kid here. My child's safety trumps anyone else's feelings.

So, this is a long, round about way of saying I am super protective of my kids but they all grew up to be normal, stable, social teens with lots of friends who all come over to visit. For those who don't have kids, I see how dearly you love your GSDs... can you imagine some stranger down the road who you barely know saying, "hey, bring your 6mo old GSD pup over and leave her for the afternoon, bye!" You would't dare!! Pit bull or not.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So pitts are now one of the top scoring dogs in temperament tests. Hmmmm. This is really funny. Are these a compilation of tests administered by shelters across the US? Because there are a cagilion pitts and pit mixes in shelters. Or are these temperament tests that are given and AKC or UKC shows for prospective breeders. 

Either way the numbers could be skewed. For one thing, the majority of pit owners have never been to any type of dog show and are unlikely to temperment test their dogs, well not in anyway we deem acceptable. 

If we are talking about dogs in shelters. Many pit and pit type dogs are PTS without any type of temperament testing. Secondly, GSDs and Rottys are often in a shelter because they are having a problem, are poorly socialized, etc. I am not saying a nice obedient dog with good nerve might not land in the shelter, but a higher than average population of shelter GSDs would tend to be less than perfect speciments.

Lastly, I do not know that meeting the family and dog once or twice can really give you the information you need.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Neither, Sue. They are the ATTS results. The numbers are not skewed, the testers send in their reports. I think the numbers are more accurate than CGCs actually. Most CGC evaluators I've seen will give you back your paperwork if your dog fails (instead of sending it in).

http://www.atts.org/stats1.html


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

If any of the temp test data comes from shelter tests, I think it's accurate. Pittie-type dogs typically do MUCH better on things like SAFER testing than the GSDs do.



> Quote:Secondly, GSDs and Rottys are often in a shelter because they are having a problem, are poorly socialized, etc. I am not saying a nice obedient dog with good nerve might not land in the shelter, but a higher than average population of shelter GSDs would tend to be less than perfect speciments.


Where are you getting your data?









I think most in rescue who do shelter work would agree that the GSDs and Rotties in the shelter aren't any more likely to be there because of temp problems than the Pitties are. Great specimens of all three breeds are in shelters all the time. They're not rare, they're not even the minority.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I figured she meant the ATTS test b/c she mentioned the "TT" and that's usually how it's referred to. The APDT does in fact have a higher pass rate than the GSD. It's a much different test than the CGC or what shelters typically do.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:I think it is worth reviewing some data, CDC report on Dog Bite Related Fatalities , refer to page two.
> 
> GSDs account for 7% of fatalities, where Pit Bull-Type account for 27%. If you look at Pits and Rotts, they represent 44% of fatalities in about a 20 year period.
> 
> ...


You need to read the rest of the report not just the abstract. The authors do a pretty good job explaining why those stats can't be interpreted at face value - for all the reasons that I and others have explained on this thread. The overall number of dogs of a certain breed in the population, subjective or sensationalized breed ID, and the kinds of people attracted to X breed are all huge factors.

Check out the number one breed responsible for dog bite related fatalies between 1975 and 1980. It ain't Rotties or any of the bully breeds. 



> Quote:Are we surprised when a Beagle barks at a rabbit, or a German Shorthair points at a quail? Why would we be surprised Pits or Rotts are aggressive?


Except that Rotties and the Pit-typed breeds have totally different backgrounds and original purposes. The only place they're in the same category is as current popular dogs for thugs and in BSL. Dogs bred for dog fighting (so that would be some of the bullies but not Rotties) were specifically bred NOT to be aggressive towards people, so the exact opposite of Beagles and rabbits or GSPs and game birds.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02I think it is worth reviewing some data, <u>*CDC report on Dog Bite Related Fatalities *</u>, refer to page two.


I highly recommend this website for more information on dog bite statistics:

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/dog-bites/ 



I was surprised that so many people on a German Shepherd board think so negatively about "pit bulls" when the German Shepherd has also been stuck with a bad reputation in the past and is also included in breed bans in some places.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I stayed aside for a while, but I'll chime in just to agree with everyone who said that, John Q. Public wouldn't recognize a pit bull if it bit him on the *censored*

I've seen news reports when we lived in Orlando, "vicious pit bull attacks" complete with stock photo of battle scarred putbull covered in blood. Then, when you watch the actual news, the dog is NOT a pit. couldn't be confused with a pit by the most stupid of people. Once, it was a beagle (swear to GOD! a beagle). more often, it's a lab or lab mix. Let's face it, PIT BULL ATTACK is an attention-grabbing headline. and that's what the news is for, sell papers/get viewers.
as many others have mentioned, not all bites get reported, even if medical treatment is sought. if it's a little dog, the ER/AC will often laugh it off. Now, go in and say your GSD pup caught your finger while playing ball and he's in quarantine. (posted in current dog affairs on this board recently). 

When we got our lab-mix from the shelter in WV, he was the cutest little thing. He was in the car with me a year later when I stopped by to drop off my mom's dog for the neuter clinic. The woman who runs the shelter swore to me that he was Rhodesian Ridgeback. I told her that I got him there and when. and she kept telling me, "oh we must have made a mistake. that's definitely a ridgeback, not a lab. and purebred too!"
1) he has no ridge
2) he looks entirely 1000% like a lab and acts like a lab
3) no one in Mason County WV has a ridgeback, let alone a litter of puppies dumped into the shelter.
4) the woman admits she's never seen one in person

another story from when we were hunting for a dog friendly apartment in South Florida. The rules were "no prick ears if dog was over 20 lbs. and no dog with black and tan markings" Now, GSDs were allowed, if you had papers to prove the breed. but, anything with prick ears over 20lbs was a "pit bull" and anything "black and tan" was a rottie and both of those breeds weren't allowed because the complex had too many problems with those dogs being vicious. THOSE are the type of people that you have reporting on what breed of dog bit them. and people wonder why the statistics are skewed against certain breeds???


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> I was surprised that so many people on a German Shepherd board think so negatively about "pit bulls" when the German Shepherd has also been stuck with a bad reputation in the past and is also included in breed bans in some places.


My thoughts exactly. I strongly believe that a dog should be judged on its own merits, not by what breed it is. 

Moose looks like a golden and everyone things he is so beautiful and sweet and want to pet him, but he is likely to bite, but the same people are scared to death of Bison and the worst he would do to the is put a sloppy spit drenched ball in their lap.

Bottom line is that any new dog to be treated with caution.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Wanted to share something from the AVMA

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/nov00/s111500c.asp

""We get involved in many of these issues," he said, "writing to legislators, asking how animal control officers can be charged with enforcing breed bans and restrictions when they have little or no training to identify specific breeds. Even if they could, there is really no way of defining what a 'pit bull' is and isn't."

......

"Inevitably, he says, owners who have trained, well-behaved dogs become affected by the small percentage of owners whose dogs have been involved in aggressive incidents.

"All the responsible owners of the breed are put to financial hardship," Duffy said. "Their insurance is likely to go right out the window."

Duffy would prefer to see communities adopt a law that takes all breeds of dog into consideration and is focused on penalizing the owner of the dog with the objectionable behavior."

Punish the DEED NOT the BREED


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

The data becomes more relevant when you contrast that against population size. Of the three breeds I mentioned, it is pretty common knowledge that GSDs and their crossbreeds are more common in American households than Pits or Rotts. So when you factor that in, the data becomes more significant.

You only get to make that type of mistake once with your child, simply isn't worth the risk.

My children live with a GSD, I truly believe this particular dog would die for the kids.

I have know doubt there are Pit or Rott owners who could say the same, but I would suggest statistics make them exceptional owner/trainers, especially if they are working their dogs, but unfortunately the typical (stereotype) does not fit the mold of a person active on this type of forum.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

I wouldn't want my child around ANY dog that I was not comfortable with. Reguardless of breed. My dogs are always supervised with her and so far I have not seen any behavior other than getting too excited, that has worried me. But still my dogs are large and haave sharp teeth so I still make sure everything is safe and the dogs know what kind of play is allowed. And they are a breed that has fairly earned a reputation of biting as well. 
For every story of someone being bitten by a GSD, I hear about 3-5 more about how great and loving the one they grew up with was etc. Same for pits rotts, and others. One of the AC officeers I have gotten to know says that despite hype for these breeds, he sees just as many if not more incidents with labs and lab mixes! People seems to think "Oh, it;s a lab, labs LOVE kids" and don't do the proper training and socializing and boundaries. 
Every single dog that is in my home will have the same rules, chihuahua or shepherd. Will I own a pit? Not likely, however there is a whole list of breeds that I like alot less than pits! I also am not a fan of labs, huskies, anything yappy, or anything with the tail over the back. 
I agree the humans involved with leaving a child at a home can be just as frightening as possible dog issues! When I was about 5 I went to a friends house nearby and did not know it was butchering day for all the chicks they had been raising! I still have bad dreams about everything I saw that day and think about it regularly. They had dogs too.....


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:The data becomes more relevant when you contrast that against population size.


Exactly. And there are gazillions of dogs being identified as "Pit Bulls." Or look at the stats for Rotties over time. At the beginning of the period the paper covers there are few attacks. As Rotties become more popular so do incidents with them. Why? More dogs and more of the wrong sort of people owning them.



> Quote: Of the three breeds I mentioned, it is pretty common knowledge that GSDs and their crossbreeds are more common in American households than Pits or Rotts. So when you factor that in, the data becomes more significant.


Says who?







Where are you getting that statistic? 
How do you know GSDs and their crossbreeds are more likely to be identified as such by ACOs than "Pit Bulls" (which already encompass many different breeds) and all of _their _crossbreeds?

And the related question is are GSDs and their crossbreeds more or less likely than Pitties and their mixes to be owned by people who keep them tethered, don't socialize them, let them roam and any of the other exacerbating risk factors?



> Quote: My children live with a GSD, I truly believe this particular dog would die for the kids.


And yet GSDs were the number one breed listed for fatal dog attacks between 1975 and 1980. 

Have GSDs as a breed become less aggressive over time? No! They've simply been replaced by other breeds as the "tough guy" dog of choice. 



> Quote:unfortunately the typical (stereotype) does not fit the mold of a person active on this type of forum.


The dogs we deal with in rescue and the dogs being temp tested to such rave reviews are not coming from homes like the people on this forum and yet nice human-friendly "Pit Bulls" are not the exception in those situations, they're the rule.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

When pits are used in fighting or taught badly by their owners, they too are *victims* and should NOT be treated as the "bad" guy.

Vick's dogs being rehabilitated:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=5729309&page=1

After adoption

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/vick/


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I don't think a lot of Vick's dog were fought, many didn't even look like APBT, but that's a whole 'nother subject... Some like Leo didn't even bear scarring. And as horrid as they were treated by humans, only was was put down for aggression, and one for being so sick she wasn't salvageable.

I myself have said this several times in this thread, and many others have.
Pit bull is not a breed. It covers...
American pit bull terrier.
American staffordshire terrier.
American Bully
Cane Corso.
Dogo Argentino.
Some Old English bulldog.
Bull Terrier.
American Bulldog.
Many hound breeds.
Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog.
Staffordshire bull terrier.
Valley Bulldog.
Banter Bulldog.
Presa Canario.
Catahoula Leopard dog.
Alano Espanol 
Ca de Bou dog.
Boxer dog.
Labrador retriever.
Black Mouth Cur.
Bandogge.
Blue Lacey.
BoerBoel.
Beagle designer, the "Boggle".
Short haired pointers.

There's plenty more, but I'm too lazy to list all...
ALL of those breeds, and ALL of their mixes have the characteristics the 'experts' say describe a "pit bull". 

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/breedbanslabradormistake.htm
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/breedbanspersecutionontariostyle.htm


Whereas mistaking a german shepherd CAN be done, their ears, head, hair, and normal markings and very distinguishing. Rottweilers all have those markings, above the eyes, under the tail, on the paws and the throat. It's a serious fault to breed one without them. 

That is why there are so many 'pit bull' attacks. When a dalmatian attacks, it's easy to say "DALMATIAN". When a pomeranian mauls a baby, it's easy to say it's a pomeranian... The NAIDs who mauled the baby recently are a rare breed and had papers most likely, easy to distinguish... When a Lab mix with short hair, and a white chest bites a kid in the face, and it doesn't have papers, it's up to the media to say what it is. When a brindle boxer mix chases down a few neighborhood cats and terrorizes their owners by mauling their pets to death, it's up to whoever is reporting to look at the short-haired, muscular dog and make a call on what they should name it as.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: APBTLove
> Pit bull is not a breed. It covers...
> American pit bull terrier.
> American staffordshire terrier.
> ...


I totally agree! I'm so used to saying a bully or pit







Which also makes breed specific legislation (BSL) so stupid - banning a non-breed???? 

The other thing about BSL that most forget is laws can ban but only LAW ABIDING Citizens will comply (or move out of town). Just like GUN LAWS - the criminals will STILL CONCEAL their weapons! BSL - another way innocent people and dogs get screwed. 

It is nice to try and make Utopia but actually making it happen with laws is absurd because people are still people and those that choose to follow laws will and those that don't will not follow .... plus BSL doesn't address the whole dog biting issue. I will look for the report from the UK on Gun Laws that showed their bans on guns didn't stop crime - people just use other methods to commit crimes. Kind of like DC - couldn't have a gun - yeah - that stopped crime! Okay - sorry I digressed.....

The issue with any dog, regardless of breed, needs to take an owner responsible and education role.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Wow! Ignorance is Bliss, eh? I am dumbfounded and surprised at the thoughts of some people here about APBTs. 

You do realize that GSDs are bred to be guardians whre APBTs are not. 

Never Mind, I'm done here, the close mindedness of some of you is just gross. I truly hope that you never have to face a crowd of GSD haters and try to defend the breed that you love and cherish so much, that your dogs never hurt anyone and that you get as frustrated as I am right now, with close minded people about GSDs. 

It's one thing to not like a certain breed but to drag them through the mud and spout untruths, tht's another story entirely. 

I respect those of you that said, you did not like them and that you wouldn't let your kid play at a house that had one without going on about how horrid the breed is. 

Courtney


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Find the pit bull (which I think in this case means APBT):

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: VonKromeHaus I truly hope that you never have to face a crowd of GSD haters and try to defend the breed that you love and cherish so much, that your dogs never hurt anyone and that you get as frustrated as I am right now, with close minded people about GSDs.


AMEN!!!! "Pits" today German Shepherds tomorrow - it will not stop once that slippery slope begins in your neighborhood. Children always become the poster child of why we "must act now!" 

Hugs to all those misunderstood dogs.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobos
> I totally agree! I'm so used to saying a bully or pit
> 
> 
> ...


I think this makes breed-specific legislation_ dangerous_. In many breed bans I've seen they include in the ban any dog that <u>looks like</u> a "pit bull" (whatever their definition of a pit bull is) which means many mixed breeds and other non-bully breeds are banned, not just the ones commonly called pit bulls.

Here is one example of a breed ban like this (bolding mine):


> Quote: Confining Pit Bull Dogs
> (Ohio Revised Code Section 955.22D)
> 
> Dogs that are a “breed of dog commonly known as a Pit Bull” are automatically considered to be vicious under Ohio law. They must be confined on the owner’s property by means of a locked fenced yard, a locked dog pen that has a top, or some other locked enclosure (such as a house). *This law applies not only to purebred American Pit Bull dogs, but also to other pure bred and mixed breed dogs that have similar physical and behavioral characteristics. Animal Control Officers make the determination as to whether or not a dog is a “breed of dog commonly known as a Pit Bull.” *


You know the quote about guns, well that applies to "pit bulls" as well-- if you ban them, only criminals will own them. If they do someone manage to eliminate all dogs which resemble "pit bulls" from the city, the people who want dogs as a macho status symbol will just pick another type of dog to use...perhaps German Shepherds next?





> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobos
> AMEN!!!! "Pits" today German Shepherds tomorrow - it will not stop once that slippery slope begins in your neighborhood. Children always become the poster child of why we "must act now!"


This is what worries me. If we can't even unify the owners of two oft misunderstood breeds against prejudice and BSL, I don't think that bodes well for the future... Today they ban pit bull type dogs, tomorrow it may be Dobermans and next week maybe German Shepherds-- (in fact in some places GSDs are included in the bans) or they might just go ahead and ban all dogs over a certain size as they have already done in some places in Europe as well as in some U.S. towns.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I didn't realize Ohio had banned them altogether! It is also ridiculous to leave up to Animal Control Officers to make the determination. If owners of all breeds don't step up to the plate and work together to stop this CRIME against humans and dogs - I'm not sure what will stop BSL - at least that is how we were able to stop BSL so far in MN - we stood together - those who have and don't have pits, rotts, etc..

It so goes against the US Constitution in my view - you can't have property taken without just cause or without going to court to provide your dog innocent - except in this case the dog is innocent for just being a dog. 

People and breeds are getting punished for a "pre-crime" that they may or may not commit. Just like the movie Tom Cruise was in! Scary, scary stuff.

What if we all got tickets as an annual "moving vehicle tax" that would cover when/if you speed in the year, fly through a stop sign, etc. since we are all "prone" to speeding and not always stopping at stop signs! Same principle - stupid, stupid, stupid! And wouldn't stop anyone from speeding and causing an accident or even running through a stop sign and hitting someone. Just a law that does nothing except hurt those who are innocent!


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq The dogs we deal with in rescue and the dogs being temp tested to such rave reviews are not coming from homes like the people on this forum and yet nice human-friendly "Pit Bulls" are not the exception in those situations, they're the rule.


Your points are logical, reasonable, and well presented....I will clarify the parameter of my view by saying, I have personally trained with fine examples of both breeds (Pits & Rotts), handled by excellent trainers. I have also had the parents of children who attend school with my kids, prefer not to have their children in my home, because of my GSD.

For the sake of discussion, lets employ a scenario that allows us to remove the passion for the breed from the equation, and examine the question at hand; Lets say an automobile, the Lemonesk, has statics in the market, over a period of time, a signifant number of fatalities are associated with this vehicle. We could have discusions regarding the engineering of the car, and the caliber of the drivers, but the question remains, <u>do you place your child in that car?</u>

Under an alternate scenario, let us also assume the statistics on the Lemonesk are flawed. Then what we're really dealing with is perception. For most, perception is reality, for the few who have access to facts or understanding of the facts, there is a difference. As the parent who only has perception, do you simply assume the risk, <u>do you place your child in the car?</u>

The question at hand is not the statistical qualities of any breed or car, it is about assuming the risk with your child.


Edit: I wish I could spell!


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Excellent way to ask the question about risk. Whether with a car, appropriate television programming, foods, friends, at home activities, taking baths alone at a young age (could drown), swimming alone.... these are all situational questions that every parent would have to make a judgement call on. Unfortunately, perception is reality for too many people. It is very important then for folks to work together to change the perception and focus on educating people on responsible dog ownership, responsible swimming pool access, responsible television watching, etc. and for a parent it is their responsibility to decide that level of risk for the child BUT NOT make that risk decision for others in their community.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

part of assuming the risk, however, is having actual FACTS. not just relying on a perception of reality. as others have said, I wouldn't allow my children to go someplace where I didn't trust the parents. 

If they are responsible dog owners, then I would let them go no matter the breed. if they were like 80% or more of the population, I wouldn't want my 5 yr old child over there with ANY dog.

my children are older, so it's less of a point since they know how to NOT interact with dogs. but if they have a vicious dog (again ANY breed) my children wouldn't be visiting that home again.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I think Dannerra is right. The problem is that the "facts" on which the statistics are based aren't really facts. 

So, to take the car analogy, let's say we have your scenario, there's the Lemonesk car and the fatalities apparently associated with it. As presented, a reasonable parent might decide to play it safe and keep the kid out of the car, supposing that the underlying cause of at least some of the fatalities is something to do with the particular model of car. But on closer examination we find out that people are really bad at identifying the Lemonesk and a significant number of the cars used to calculate the statistics were actually other kinds of cars. And then we discover that the Lemonesk is the preferred car of drag racers and drag racing accidents account for a huge percentage of the accidents attributed to the Lemonesk. The remainder are accidents that could have happened in any car (icy roads, hit by other drivers etc).

Does it make sense to refuse to let our child ride in someone's Lemonesk if they are not a drag racer? Not really. Our real concern is whether or not we feel comfortable with their driving, regardless of what kind of car they drive. It certainly makes sense to ask ourselves whether we want person X transporting our child but to get hung up on the make and model of their car misses the real issue. If they are an unsafe driver, they can endanger our child in some other brand and if they're a good driver, the Lemonesk is no more dangerous than any other car and safer than many.











> Quote:For most, perception is reality, for the few who have access to facts or understanding of the facts, there is a difference. As the parent who only has perception, do you simply assume the risk, do you place your child in the car?


In a way, focusing on the perception is actually more dangerous to your child because you're ignoring the real risk. You may think you're protecting your child by avoiding letting them ride in any Lemonesks but the perception that other cars are safe is erroneous. You're better off trying to understand the reality of the Lemonesk's stats and then making your decisions based on the actual facts.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pupresqIn a way, focusing on the perception is actually more dangerous to your child because you're ignoring the real risk. You may think you're protecting your child by avoiding letting them ride in any Lemonesks but the perception that other cars are safe is erroneous. You're better off trying to understand the reality of the Lemonesk's stats and then making your decisions based on the actual facts.


Very insightful post, as this characterizes the dilemma many parents faced in deciding on the H1N1 vaccine for their children.

Its about the kids......not the dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I would say it's not about the dog OR the kids. it's about the parents and knowing the people you are trusting to watch over your child.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whatever, ordinary owners are not bothering to do these tests. People interesting in breeding and people that are promoting the breed, maybe, but that is not the bulk of the people owning these dogs. 

I do not know that the data is an accurate representation of the breed or any breed, because it is only the elite performing these test on their dogs. 

I think it is rather silly to think that people would bother to take their dog to one of these tests if they thought the dog did not have a good chance to pass it. 

As for the TT around here, I have heard of it one place one time, and I have been looking for it to be offered. Most people just do the CGC around here because it is more readily available.

The APDT is not going to be at shows that I go to as they are not a recognized breed. 

While this is also true of most popular breeds, the breeders that are not concerned with temperament, and would not use these tests, are probably way more prolific, breed more dogs, breed more often, and land their puppies in questionable homes. 

The thing about this whole thread is letting YOUR daughter go to a house where an individual you do not know, owns one of these breeds. Because of the bad press, I would be more likely to allow my charges to visit a home with a GSD than a home with a pitt.

A GSD is much less likely to KILL the child, as pitts have been responsible for more fatal dog encounters. And just the nature of the beast. A GSD is bred for herding and guarding, but not necessarily bred to continue on and on and on until a creature stop struggling as a terrier and bull dogs have been. 

At the end of the day, if the child is in the hospital or dead, this whole conversation does not cut it. People who have formidable dogs have to understand that the general public may not be as free with their youngsters around them. I am not offended if people do not want to bring their kids to my house because of my dogs, even though my dogs are generally kenneled when people come over.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

computer crashed and now I can't edit. 
In the analogy with the cars, I would trust a good SAFE driver in a questionable car (per statistics) over a bad reckless driver in a statistically safer car.

therefore, I would let my child go to a home with responsible adults who own a Pit Bull before I would let my child go to a home with clueless adults who own any other dog.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

If a child is hurt or killed because of a "pit" it is not my sister's dogs fault (who is a "pit") and she SHOULD NEVER be punished for the actions of another dog! We do NOT punish humans for the actions of other humans - our laws do not allow that. 

Example: (and I hope I don't offend anyone - actually I do so you can see how offensive it is to pit owners and those who are afraid their dogs could be banned!) If the majority of prisoners in this country by population are African American men, should we then suppose that since a majority of African American men are convicted of crimes then ALL African American should be sent to jail or banned from our neighborhoods in order to keep "us safe!"?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0881455.html 


ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

See how offensive that is to even suggest that? And how ludicrous???? Remember - Germans accused the Jews of causing all the problems in Germany and ended up killing millions. It is a SLIPPERY SLOPE when you blame a whole group, breed or race for the acts of a few!

So why do people who promote BSL not see it IS THE SAME THING?

Punish all for the acts of a few????? WRONG!

I can feel sorry for the child or anyone attacked. But if it was my pit or my other blamed breed who didn't do the deed, I would NEVER feel guilty for owning or having as a companion one of those breeds. Why? Because guilt should always lie where guilt belongs - with the guilty party!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: Whatever, ordinary owners are not bothering to do these tests. People interesting in breeding and people that are promoting the breed, maybe, but that is not the bulk of the people owning these dogs.


But they're beating out other breeds in temp tests across the board - not just elite owners at whatever venues but in shelters as well. The dogs we're seeing in shelters aren't from people interested in promoting the breed and they're very much the "bulk" of the sort of dogs out there - and they're kicking temp test butt. In general these dogs are extremely tolerant of poking and prodding, friendly towards strangers, have low reactivity, not food aggressive, and basically do well on all of the tests we throw at them in shelters - with the exception that a small percentage of the ones with a high content of breeds still used for fighting really can be a little iffy with other dogs, at least when they get really worked up. Definitely not all or even most of them but enough that I'd say that is a potential breed characteristic to be aware of. But with people? They're great! 

The Rotties, in my experience, don't test as well. They are more defensive towards strangers and more prone to resource guarding. Again, not all of them or even most, and ironically not usually the ones from the worst situations but again, enough that it's something I look out for. 

I find that both breeds test out about exactly how you'd think they would based on their historical uses and background.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:A GSD is much less likely to KILL the child, as pitts have been responsible for more fatal dog encounters. And just the nature of the beast. A GSD is bred for herding and guarding, but not necessarily bred to continue on and on and on until a creature stop struggling as a terrier and bull dogs have been.


Except that's not true. 

GSDs were responsible for the most fatal dog attacks during one of the study periods. GSDs have a much higher defensive drive and are far more suspicious of strangers than Bully breeds. Aggression towards dogs and aggression towards people are completely different behaviors and are totally independent of each other. The fact that "Pit Bulls" were bred to fight other dogs doesn't make them aggressive towards people - in fact, as has been said over and over they were bred specifically NOT to be aggressive towards people. 

But at the end of the day, the big factor isn't breed at all, it's the overall number of the dogs in the population and the popularity of the breed with people who create statistically risky situations.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: pupresq
> 
> The Rotties, in my experience, don't test as well. They are more defensive towards strangers and more prone to resource guarding. Again, not all of them or even most, and ironically not usually the ones from the worst situations but again, enough that it's something I look out for.
> 
> I find that both breeds test out about exactly how you'd think they would based on their historical uses and background.


makes perfect sense to me. rotties were created to be wary of strangers and to guard their owners belongings, weren't they? 
also the reason that GSDs can do badly on these tests (depending on the person doing the grading) because they can be very aloof, which some people seem to confuse with distrust


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

my dog was attacked by the same Yorkie twice. the first
time it happened our dogs were in the play group that i go to.
the Yorkie just grabbed my dogs shoulder and held on. someone
in the group grabbed my dog by the tail. when i got close the man that grabbed my dog by the tail was holding his collar.
the man holding my dog told me my dog never reacted. the owner of the Yorkie told me his Yorkie was attacked by a GSD
and when ever he sees one he goes after it. 



> Originally Posted By: amd1When my shepherd and i were attacked by the yorkie (twice, a year apart)..I reported the second one as i do believe ryder fatally got ahold of it...But we were laughed at because we got attacked by a yorkie...And it was getting to where it was blamed on us even though we didn't do anything wrong...But because ryder was the bigger dog he got the blame...We have been working with ryder ever since with the leave it...
> 
> I think pittys are gorgeous beautiful dogs, but would i own one? No. Would i leave my kids in a house with one? No..
> Just because i don't trust them...I know it is judging the animal, and i am sorry but thats just me. I dont trust my sister chi either she bit me coming in the house the other day. Not hard just a little nip but enough to get my attention.


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## Smith3 (May 12, 2008)

if you got back into your time machine and went back 30-40 years ago - you'd see the same hysteria over German Shepherds

Dobermans were the breed to "hate" in the 80's

Pit bulls are the breed to hate in the 00's.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Really, you know, what, forget it. I don't mind people that don't like the breed I own but I do mind people that can not comprehend informaton about this breed. 

I truly hope some of you haters run across someone that hates GSDs and loathes them to the point that they get mad at you for having one in a pet store and wants to know why you have a child killer there. Some GSDs have killed children just as Poms and Huskies, Chows etc. 

I appreciate those of you that can differentiate between facts and media bias and that NOT all APBTs are bad dogs. 

Courtney


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I found this on the net and have no idea for what time period it lists but it suggests that with 104 deaths attributed to pit bull terriers and 7 to GSDs, my statement was not incoorrrect. However, I would like to find something a litte more quotable:

Breed Attacks doing Child Adult Deaths Maimings Notes
bodily harm victims victims
[dogs X victims] [--------Individuals---------]
Akita 48 32 14 1 39
Akita mix (inspecific) 1 1 0 0 1
Akita/Chow mix 3 3 0 0 3
Akita/Lab mix 1 1 0 0 1
Akita/terrier mix 2 1 0 0 1
Airedale/boxer 1 1 0 1 0 #
Airedale 1 1 0 1 0
Australian blue heeler 3 1 1 0 2
Australian cattle dog 1 1 0 0 1
Australian shepherd 6 4 0 0 1
Basset/GSD mix 1 1 0 1 0
Beagle 2 2 0 1 1 #
Belgian shepherd 4 1 3 0 1
Blue heeler 2 0 1 0 1
Border collie 1 0 1 1 1 #
Briard 2 0 1 1 0
Brittany spaniel 4 1 0 0 1
Bulldog (American 4 0 3 2 2
Bulldog (English) 16 8 3 1 9
Bull mastiff (Presa Canario) 30 10 13 6 16
Bull mastiff/German shepherd 2 1 0 1 0
Buff mastiff/Rottweiler 1 1 0 0 1
Boxer 31 6 12 2 12 #
Boxer mix 1 1 0 1 0
Cane Corso 4 1 2 1 3
Catahoula 3 0 1 0 1
Chow 49 34 12 6 32
Chow/husky mix 2 2 0 1 1
Chow/Labrador mix 4 4 0 0 3
Chox mix (other) 2 2 0 0 2
Cocker spaniel 1 1 0 0 1
Collie 3 3 0 0 3
Collie/retriever mix 1 1 0 0 1
Coonhound 1 1 0 0 0
Page 2 of 7
Dalmatian 3 3 0 0 3
Dalmatian/Akita mix 1 1 0 0 1
Dauschund 2 1 1 1 2 #
Doberman 11 7 4 3 7 #
Doge de Bordeaux 2 1 0 0 1
East Highland terrier 1 0 1 1 0 #
Fila Brasiero 1 1 0 0 1
German shepherd 63 42 17 7 38
German shepherd mix 31 21 7 6 19 #
German shepherd/husky mix 4 3 1 1 2
Golden retriever 6 6 0 1 4 #
Great Dane 24 5 4 2 9
Great Pyranees 1 0 1 1 0
Greyhound 1 1 0 0 1
Husky 39 23 4 13 8
Husky/Malamute mix 2 2 0 0 2
Husky/Labrador mix 1 0 1 0 1
Jack Russell terrier 2 1 1 1 0 #
Labrador 26 18 9 2 20 #
Labrador mix 10 9 1 0 9 #
Labrador/boxer mix 1 0 1 0 0
Lab-Doberman 1 1 0 0 1
Lab-St. Bernard 1 1 0 0 1
Malamute 8 7 1 3 3
Mastiff 16 11 4 4 9
Norwegian elkhound 1 0 1 0 1 #
Pit bull terrier 1110 495 397 104 608 #
Pit bull boxer mix 5 1 2 0 2
Pit bull/chow mix 5 2 3 1 3
Pit bull/Doberman/GSD/Lab 2 2 0 0 2
Pit bull/GSD mix 1 1 0 0 1
Pit bull/Lab mix 15 10 4 3 8 #
Pit bull/Rott. mix 39 7 3 2 8
Pit bull/Sheltie mix 1 1 0 0 1
Pit bull/Weimaraner mix 1 0 1 0 1
Pit mix unknown 3 2 0 0 2
Pointer mix 1 0 1 0 0 #
Pomeranian 1 1 0 1 0
Poodle 2 1 1 0 2 #
Pug 1 1 0 0 1
Pug/Rottweiler mix 2 1 0 1 0
Queensland heeler 3 0 1 0 1
Rottweiler 409 231 109 58 223 #
Rottweiler/chow mix 1 1 0 0 1
Rottweiler/GSD mix 13 7 5 2 10
Rottweiler/Labrador 7 6 1 0 7
Russian terrier 1 0 1 0 1
Saint Bernard 6 3 0 1 1
Sharpei 4 4 0 0 4
Sharpei/Rottweiler 2 1 0 0 1
Sharpei/unknown mix 1 1 0 0 1
Sharpei/Labrador 1 1 0 0 1
Springer spaniel 3 4 0 0 4
Tosa 1 1 0 0 1
Weimaeaner 1 1 0 0 1
Wheaten terrier 2 1 0 0 1
Wolf hybrid 71 65 3 18 43 #
Total: 2209 1142 658 264 1323


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I have to admit, that I have not read this whole thread, but I think I have some insights on it.
As a vet tech, I will walk into an exam room with a Pit in it and feel no fear.
As a breed, they are the nicest dogs around people.
I walk into an exam room with a GSD and I am very respectful of the personal space the dog needs to feel comfortable.
Have I seen REALLY bad Pits?
Yup. Euthanized a couple with sedation from a pole syringe. Do you want to know their history? Probably not. I have muzzled and sedated far more Sheps.
In essence, they can become highly reactive bite dogs, just like everyone's greatest Sch. GSD.
The difference between Pits and Sheps is their bite.
Sheps will bite, let go, and say "Bring it on."
It is generally a very quick reaction for them.
Pitts will take it until you trigger them, and then they lock on. THAT is the reason why people get killed. You really can't get them off once they reach their breaking point.
That breaking point is so far above my GSD's it isn't even funny.
(6 GSD's in my house, and one pit cross, that is my daughters best friend, and the only dog that sleeps with her.)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I found this for 2008 and 2009 did not look much better, but is incomplete.

2008 statistics
23 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2008. Pit bull type dogs were responsible for 65% (15). 

This suggests that it is far more likely for a child to be dead from an attack by a pit bull that from another breed of dog. 

This is from the dogsbite.org site that well hates dogs pretty much. 

I do not believe that BSL is the answer, but I do think parents need to be careful with their children and especially around breeds of dogs that have been known to have many fatalities.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not hate the breed. I do not like their looks, but I understand that they are devoted and intelligent companion animals and they inspire the devotion of their owners. My only breed is a GSD, so it is completely a personal preference when it comes to looks. 

I do not want them banned. I do not want them restricted beyond other dogs. 

I do want all owners of all dogs to be held more responsible for the actions of their dogs. I wish it was a little more difficult for people to own dogs, like if they have a felony conviction, they cannot own a dog, or if they have been convicted of animal cruelty and the like. I don't know, but one would think that with computers, one could run a check before issuing a dog license. And dog license laws should be better enforced.

At the same time, when you have a kid, I think that it is your responsibility to ensure that your child is safe and supervised around dogs and specifically dogs that have the ability to seriously maim or kill them. How can you ensure this when you kid is at their friend's home? Well, you know their friends, and when in doubt you do not allow them to be their on their own.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> At the same time, when you have a kid, I think that it is your responsibility to ensure that your child is safe and supervised around dogs and specifically dogs that have the ability to seriously maim or kill them. How can you ensure this when you kid is at their friend's home? Well, you know their friends, and when in doubt you do not allow them to be their on their own.


I think that has been everyone's point. and it applies REGARDLESS of the breed.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: selzerI found this for 2008 and 2009 did not look much better, but is incomplete.
> 
> 2008 statistics
> 23 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2008. Pit bull type dogs were responsible for 65% (15).


Again though, "pit bull type dogs" could be anything from a purebred American Pit Bull Terrier to a Labrador that had a kinda blocky head so was written down as a "pit bull", or a misidentified Boxer so these statistics really do not mean much.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, but the other stuff I posted listed pit bulls and pit bull crosses seperately. 

I do not know if it is reguardless of breed. If they have a newf (yes, I have been bitten by one when I was a kid) or a setter, or a small dog, then I could live with a parent calling me and telling me that my daughter has been bitten and whatever. I go over, pick her up, assess the wound and deal with it, ok. But if the people have Rotties, Danes, GSDs, huskies, Malabutes, Chows, Akitas, or pit bull type dogs, then I need to KNOW the people and the dog and maybe even then I will be leery. You cannot take an attack like that back. 

I have been bitten a couple of times by GSDs and it could be extremely jarring for a child to have that kind of bite. And those bites I had were not even where the dog's aggression was directed to me. So even though Cockers and Scottys and Dachsunds and Chis can be nasty little buggers, I would be less concerned having a child play in a home that had one of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

While owners of bully breeds continue to say that the statistics do not mean much and all of these other things, the opposition is picking up steam. Because while you all are saying that it a misrepresentation, no one is addressing the problems. 

In the one link that suggested 104 deaths as opposed to 7 attributed to GSDs. Ok, maybe 50% of those were not identified properly. (That happens with GSDs too BTW.) Is 52 deaths enough to say, hey that is way too much, we have to work hard on getting people to act more responsibly. 

The big problem as I see it is that the pit bull type breeds are very attractive to people who want to appear "bad" or who are bad or in the least irresponsible. It is not everyone who owns one, but there is a huge percentage of pit bull type dog owners who are not going to care about home owners insurance, getting sued, and the like. The people are not going to go for temperament testing, good breeding practices and bloodlines, because they want a dog that can scrap, or they want a dog that appears bully. Maybe it is not a huge percentage, maybe it is only a very loud minority. I will say that shelters are filled to overflowing with pit mixes. Dogs land in shelters due to irresponsible owners. Irresponsible owners are the cause of all the problems. And there are no easy remedies for this.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I have to say that my daughter best not be bitten by any dog at a friends house.
I have 6 Sheps in my house right now, and 1 pit cross.
Not one of them is ever out and about when I think the kids are going to get silly.
Sheps are sheps, and ultimatly herding dogs.
4 out of 6 of my sheps are Fidelco guide dog pups, and have been socialized to the T.
One is a service dog of another type, and you couldn't get him to make a mistep with a person.
And then there is Frodo.








I know how socialized they all are. I will never put them in a situation where they feel they have to decide for themselves.
I STILL won't let them play with Ana and her friends. I just won't go there.
On a side note.
The only dog bite that I have ever gotten that actually needed medical attention was from a cocker. I was new at my job, and lifted the Cocker onto the exam table. It was great until I stroked the dogs head. Guess I touched her ear, which was ouchy. (Owner informed me of this as I was bandaging my hand to go to the hospital.
5 stiches and a small hole left open for draining.
My ignorant mistake many years ago, but not so different from a playful child.


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## BJDimock (Sep 14, 2008)

I have to say that my daughter best not be bitten by any dog at a friends house.
I have 6 Sheps in my house right now, and 1 pit cross.
Not one of them is ever out and about when I think the kids are going to get silly.
Sheps are sheps, and ultimatly herding dogs.
4 out of 6 of my sheps are Fidelco guide dog pups, and have been socialized to the T.
One is a service dog of another type, and you couldn't get him to make a mistep with a person.
And then there is Frodo.








I know how socialized they all are. I will never put them in a situation where they feel they have to decide for themselves.
I STILL won't let them play with Ana and her friends. I just won't go there.
On a side note.
The only dog bite that I have ever gotten that actually needed medical attention was from a cocker. I was new at my job, and lifted the Cocker onto the exam table. It was great until I stroked the dogs head. Guess I touched her ear, which was ouchy. (Owner informed me of this as I was bandaging my hand to go to the hospital.
5 stiches and a small hole left open for draining.
My ignorant mistake many years ago, but not so different from a playful child.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Not to downplay the 23 fatalities - but aren't more children killed each year from abusive humans? And we want to address 23 fatalities by banning a breed? Logic isn't playing properly here because if more kids are being killed by human parents should we then start banning people from having kids so kids don't die? Logic says that is what we would do but we don't! 

That website on dog bites I hate with a vengeance because it does nothing to address the root cause - irresponsible pet ownership (includes knowing where your kids are, if a dog is around, knowing triggers with dogs, and if a dog needs caged when guests are there, etc...). It is nothing but a FEAR MONGERING website to plant SEEDS OF FEAR so people with have a knee jerk reaction. Just like watching TMZ! Sensational news!

A Rotta Love Plus does a GREAT ambassadorship to help educate and rehome pits and rotties that need a place to live here in the twin cities. There was a place in NC where I was hoping to foster a pit while I was traveling for work...but ended up getting Angeles. That pit took to me like white on rice. BUT they were not sure if she was good with cats so I couldn't get attached and think of taking her home w/me to Minnesota since I have cats!

BSL is the "hot issue" topic that legislators can use to make people think they are doing something to keep them safe. A lot of hot air for very little reward since the root cause is never addressed. Just like criminals who will never give up their guns if they are banned, the dog fighters will keep their dogs hidden or find another breed. God forbid the next dogs in dog fighting become German Shepherds. 

As humans, we owe it to our four legged friends to try and save their lives....to be the underground railroad UNTIL stupid BSL laws are found to be unconstitutional...and to speak out against injustice and never let FEAR over excite us into reacting.

God save the bullies and preserve all breeds, keeping them safe from the breed killers!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Where is the post on here where someone is advocating banning pit bulls?

When I was a kid it was German Shepherds that were dangerous. Then Dobermans, then Rotties. Boxers seem to have a high bite rate too. My brother still bears the scars where a German Shepherd who was at a swimming lesson for kids snagged his face in his mouth. He's leery of German Shepherds to this day but owns a Rottie.

I have two boxers in the other room, a dobie snoozing in a crate next to me and a german shepherd sprawled out on the kitchen floor.

I think this thread was very educating on pit bulls. I stand by my earlier post on what I know of them. Much like any popular breed, some person gets it in their head to make a bit if money and good breeding goes out the window. If you look at petfinder for NE PA you will find pitbull after pitbull, mixed in Labs (the last popular breed in the area)

So what is the answer? Kennel Laws? Everyone fights those also. Would that do away with irresponsible breeders? If the pit bull breed (not all the sub breeds but the actual breed) was still like it was many years ago then there wouldn't even be an issue with them.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

First of all Seltzer, "finding" something on the net does not make it an accurate representation. Second, I believe I do know where this information came from because I recognize the format. I believe this is the CDC study from 1978-1998........over 10 years old AND if you had read the entire study, it would have been clear, while they have reported this information, they admit and CAUTION the reader that the reported numbers are subject to some distrust since not every reported incident was clear or certain on the breed. How many of you have had your shepherds mistaken for something else entirely? Enough, I'm with a few others on here, this is insane!!! Pitt Bulls are actually more likely to be friendly towards humans than our beloved GSD's are!!!


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I brought up the dangers of BSL that I can tell. I don't recall anyone saying anything about banning. I brought up BSL because the fear factor around pits goes to the heart of BSL.

I completely understand if someone doesn't want their child to be around a dog regardless of breed. That is their choice. What we see across the country is legislation that gets started and that is the slippery slope. We should address the concerns people have. Provide education about this and well other breeds too so people know what they are getting into when they adopt or are around other dogs. To know how to greet a strange dog or avoid to be safe. And how to help reduce fears based on perceptions. My best friend is scared to death of GSD and guess what? my dogs went up.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think educating the owners of dogs would be a start. Last year a 5 year old was sent out to feed the dog in the backyard by himself (a APBT). 10 minutes later he had not returned and the father found the little boy dead. It turns out the dog had issues prior to that day. Why would you let your child go out to feed a dog knowing there were previous problems?

I had a 100lb GSD fostering until transport for a rescue. I fed him, DH fed him, we took him out. The kids were not allowed near him without supervision and mine are 14 and 18. Not because he was dangerous (he was a big goofy love) but because I didn't know him.

But then the stories hit the papers and the fear of a breed starts. ARe there programs in the schools on how to meet and greet a dog? Nope...not educational...isn't that a kicker?


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

This is what I like about A Rotta Love Plus - their education program here...it is needed everywhere!

http://www.arottalove.org/education/programs.htm


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's shame we don't have something like that in this area. We have a very small school and I take Jax to all the home soccer games. Some will come right up to her but I see so many ppl eyeball her and give her a very wide berth. And then there were the old ladies who told me I better hang on to her tight because they would steal her. LOL

Educating the kids would be the ideal place to start. How to approach a dog, signs of aggression, how to react, how to treat a dog, how to not chain them in your backyard, not to buy from irresponsible breeders.

Do you know how much pull kids have with parents? How many parents have quit smoking because of the school campaigns? They nag and nag and nag!


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## khurley (Sep 25, 2004)

Pitbulls are like any other breed of dog, i.e. a product of their breeding and environment.

There are behavioral issues that can bred into dogs, such as weak nerves, which can lead to fear biting.

I, however, have yet to meet a dog whose breeding was sufficently bad as to render the dog a lost cause. IMO, environment is, by far, the greatest factor.

As Selzer pointed out, Pitbulls tend to attract a certain type of owner....the type that wants their dog to be mean and vicious.

Any dog, in the wrong hands, can be dangerous. Put a larger percentage of dogs into such hands and you're going to see a larger percentage of bites, attacks and deaths from those dogs.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

AMEN!!! My nephew...he was one of the reasons I quit smoking! My sister had told him about cancer and smoking and then all of a sudden he started balling in tears. She asked - whats wrong and he said "Is Uncle Rob going to die?" And she didn't put her talk about smoking and cancer together at first so she asked "No....why do you ask?" And he said, "Cause he smokes" Well....I knew I had to quit - so I stopped and started again and stopped....and started again but then buying Angeles was how I quit for good - I said if I spend my years worth of smokes on him then I can't buy the cigarettes and I can keep my promised to quit to my nephew....so today I still don't smoke! 

Kids are the best place to start - I SO Agree!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Betsy, I hate sounding like a broken record, but the name is S E L Z E R, ok? It is MY name, not a nickname, not my dog's name and it is irritating when people add a T to it. 

I do not hear about shepherds killing people. I do hear about pitts killing people. Can you guess why??? Because they have and do kill people. Some of it can be mistaken identity and crosses and bad breeding and irresponsible owners, but the fact remains. 

If you want your children to have access to these dogs at all of their friends' houses, by all means, that is up to you. 

I am not advocating BSL or Banning or anything else. I am saying to the OP that if she does not feel comfortable, then she should not let her kid play their unaccompanied by her. I mentioned other breeds I would not allow my kids to play at the house of unaccompanied, or at least without me knowing the people and dogs, and one of those was GSDs. 

The one site I went to had each incident, names of the individuals and breeds of dogs etc. Those were the years 2005 through 2009.

The other stuff I found was 1979 to 1999, a 20 year study that had 66 deaths due to pits and pit mixes and 17 deaths due to Sheps and shep mixes, and 33 due to Rotties. Pitts were not even all that popular then, not like sheps. 

So I stand by what I said that pitts are more likely to kill than sheps.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

See page 9 of http://www.arottalove.org/docs/BSL_Citizen_Packet_FINAL.pdf

and you can see the dog bite frequency vs. dog breed population and you will see pit bull terriers account for ONLY .0012% that is POINT (.)0012%..........of that breed population!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosNot to downplay the 23 fatalities - but aren't more children killed each year from abusive humans? And we want to address 23 fatalities by banning a breed? Logic isn't playing properly here because if more kids are being killed by human parents should we then start banning people from having kids so kids don't die? Logic says that is what we would do but we don't!


Statistically, the likeliness of being killed by a dog attack is pretty much equal to the likeliness of being killed by lightning.

The likeliness of being _bitten_ by a dog is fairly high, but any breed of dog may be involved in a bite incident, so it is more important IMO to know the dog and owner rather than to just keep your kid away from dogs of a certain breed/type. A recent behavioral study concluded that the breeds most likely to bite a human (or attempt to) are the Dachshund, Chihuahua and Jack Russell Terrier, Australian Cattle Dog, American Cocker Spaniel and Beagle.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> A far larger threat to little kids isn't dogs, but humans. I'd rather my niece (since I don't have kids) be playing in a yard with her friend AND a nice large pit bull than the two kids be playing there by themselves.
> 
> ...


One of the best posts on this thread.

There are more children killed at the hands of their own parents than by dogs every year.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Selzer - the problem is with the interpretation of the statistics, not the actual numbers. The CDC does indeed list Pit-typed dogs as more likely to be involved in dog bite fatalities during a certain time period. The problem is that you can't interpret that to mean that "Pit Bulls" are more likely to kill people than GSDs or some other breed or that they're more dangerous than any other breed. It means that in the past few decades more dogs identified as "Pit Bulls" or "Pit Bulls mixes" have killed people than any other breed. 

I know those statements sound similar, so what's the difference? The difference is that 1. As several people have mentioned, huge numbers of dogs are misidentified as "Pit Bulls" which is not even a breed to begin with, but the dogs may not even have any bully breed in them. 2. "Pit Bulls" and their mixes represent an enormous percentage of the dogs out there in the general population. Statistically more popular dogs are going to be involved in more aggressive encounters simply because there are more of them. As someone just posted, the actual percentage of "Pit Bulls" involved in something like this is miniscule. And finally 3. As you mentioned, "Pit Bulls" are the current breed of choice for people who want a "tough dog" and those people do a number of things that make a dog (of any breed) more likely to be involved in a dog bite fatality. Between 1975 and 1980 the number one dog involved in these kinds of fatality was the GSD. But again, it was an teeny tiny percentage of the number of GSDs out there. 

These kinds of stats don't tell you that an individual dog is more or less likely to bite or kill you and even though it's tempting, they should not be interpreted as if they do.

As a general FYI, not a response to anyone in particular - I do not own a Pit Bull or any of the Bully breeds. I never have and probably never will. I'm not that fond of them - I prefer dogs from the herding group. Temperamentally I dislike them for many of the same reasons I don't like Labs. I do like Rotties and used to have one of them, but I actually consider them more likely to bite than a PB on an individual basis - same with GSDs. But anyway, my defense of Pit Bulls here has nothing to do with an affection for the breed or a personal pet, it's simply that I hate to see these stats and stereotypes misinterpreted to make either decisions or policy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow, the study that you cited has a significantly larger population of Rottweilers than GSDs. That is strange. 

Statistics are funny. You can make them look one way or another. There are 5 million pit bulls registered out there. but only 800 thousand sheps, and over 900 thousand Rottys. Well, that isn't the case around here, but I have no clue about the rest of the country.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

And registration can be a misleading source for numbers in any case because so many people don't register their dogs or don't have registerable dogs even if they're purebred. And then you've got all the mixes, and all the dogs misidentified... It's a mess. 

Unfortunately there's really no good source of data about how many of each type of dog there is out there which is part of the problem when trying to interpret things like bite stats.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Sorry Selzer, the typo was certainly not intentional and was not directed as a slight. I have no problem with the OP not wanting her child to play with a pitbull. That is her right and it is a free country, I do not own a pit, never have and like purpresq probably never will. That has nothing to do with sensationalism of the media but personal preference. And it also has nothing to do with the fact that when Ava was a puppy we had a very close call with a neighbors "chained" and "unaltered" male that came into my yard after her. I had her on leash and was able to scoop her up and back the dog down. This dog probably wouldnt have bitten me anyway so it wasnt even a brave gesture. There are so many factors that go into dog attacks, one of the most telling is on how many unaltered animals are involved in dog attacks.....that probably has more influence than breed. 

Any statistic that is taken out of context OR that is not reliable is worse than garbage. My old Stats teacher always said......Statistics never lie...... Liar's always use statistics. So, you can take just about any study and spin it to your opinion. The bottom line for me is, The good pitts that I have met, by far outweigh the bad ones, I cant say the same for poodles or chis. 

To me, it is almost comical that the "thugs" that are attracted to this breed have one that is less likely to bite an intruder than a GSD or Rot.......but a GSD or Rot would be less stable in the environment some of these dogs have found themselves in. The whole thing is a tragedy.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Betsy
> 
> To me, it is almost comical that the "thugs" that are attracted to this breed.......


Sorry guys, using the term breed in this context is inaccurate.........I probably should have said "clasification" or something like it.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I just wanted to add, I've never owned a pit bull either.


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

Bottom line with every post on this thread is this. An animal is that, an animal. Be it a pit, or a gsd or an elk or whatever. They react to certain things in their environment. It may be a noise, or pain or fear. They all have fight or flight instict and depending on what they decide to utilize, someone stands the risk of getting hurt. Children should always be taught to recognize signs of agression with their pets and not to push the issue. Parents should supervise the child and the animals need to be given the respect that they should have with a mouth full of teeth that can cause harm and death. I would not allow my kids to swim with sharks or pet the bears at the circus. They are not allowed to just walk up to a pet and start petting them withiout asking the owner if it is ok. This is not breed specific, it is the animal kingdom and it has to be respected.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think that is what most people are trying to point out.









don't get so caught up on the breed of dog that you miss the forest for the trees. any dog can bite. a responsible owner takes the necessary steps to protect the kids AND the dog. the vast majority of people don't do that. look at all the little posts on here on GSDs being attacked by small dogs with a "Napoleon complex"

would you rather let you child go to a home with a small dog that is allowed (or even encouraged) to act viciously vs a home with a well-trained pit or other large dog that is contained and supervised in all its interactions? In my opinion, my child would be MUCH safer in the second home.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

depends on the dog


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## Qyn (Jan 28, 2005)

Any dog (heck most animals we react with) can bite, but the degree of damage varies greatly with the animal concerned. I don't think the OP in any way denigrated pit bulls but did express the intent to protect her child from interaction with them specifically because of information she had been given. That is her right and she also is also entitled to her decision to protect her child from any percieved danger. 

I had a dog (GSD X BC) that had been teased by young children and older adolescents. I chose not to have children as I was not certain she would be totally trustworthy with them but I was not going to put my dog down - small sacrifice to me as I did not want chidren anyway - but I did choose the dog over children. The opposite choice is also perfectly fine. 

No matter how good the majority of a dog breed may be with interacting within a family, if the possibility is there that that dog is not of the majority (and there is never any absolute with that) if you choose to have a child, then that child should always come first.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

My really really big concern on this whole thing is this.......I would not trust my 5 yr old alone at someones house that I did not know. I hardly trust my 10 yr old to go to people's house that I know but not well. Why would you ever risk the safety of such a young child regardless of if they own a dog or not in the care of someone you don't know? And for the record I have only ever been bitten by GSD's, my own, and a Sheltland Collie which weighted in at under 10 pounds. The little 10 pounder almost ripped off my lip biting me in the face when I was about 7 yrs old. The GSDs left scars but didn't do the damage the 10 pounder did.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Selzer, you have 10 GSDs and then you have the audacity to talk bad about APBTs. Really? your dogs are more likely to "pack up" and attack someone than my lone APBT. I'm sure that I can find skewed statistics somewhere on the net to support my position on that as well. 

I give up, you don't get it, you're close minded and can't see that it is NOT the breed thing, it is an INDIVIDUAL dog thing. No matter what the breed, it's an individual thing not a group as a whole thing. 

It's about irresponsible owners and unfortunately, most APBTs live with this type of owner. 

Courtney


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I would almost challenge the bad owner thought - based on the numbers I showed above - seems like most Pit owners are doing something right!


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Just a thought, but is it really a pit?

Ive seen alot of _lab_ mixes classified as a pit bull mix. Just cause of the floppy ears and blocky head.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

It really doesn't matter. 

What matters is a questionable home with a dog of any kind and a little kid don't mix. 

Very few people are truly able to read a dog's body language, so regardless, for the best interest of child and dog, dogs really should be put up for the sake of the children's visitors, even if a parent is supervising. I missed a sign with one of mine, and so now we have new rules for him with kids. Lucky for me, he was on a leash. I am uber neurotic so if it can get past me, imagine in a household with 2 children, a mom trying to cook and text and whatever else people do...

It is okay for parents to invite the child over to your house to play, and put your dog up. 

It is okay not to give a reason, not to make a big deal of it, just your child is never available to go play there, but that child can come to your house. Same with any other questionable family, dog or no dog. 

I would go so far to inquire on any home with a dog, or ferret (eeek), older children, or whatever as to how they supervise interactions with those things. 

It is also okay not to like German Shepherds, the dogs FKA Pitbulls, or whatever your breed preference or lack thereof. Heaven knows we get "treated" to so many negative little dogs threads. My sweet Chow Chows are much maligned here and other places and next time I will be sure to let you all have it!









It's okay for a parent to be protective and I think a lot of people in this thread said so - follow your instincts on this.


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## Ilovealldogs (Nov 17, 2006)

Not only have I volunteered with a local mixed breed rescue for a number of years, I also am a pet sitter so I am in constant contact with all types of dogs. Every single dog that tried to bite me has been a toy breed, mostly Chis and pomeranians. The only other incident was with a Shar-Pei with an unknown background as she was rescued as a stray. Some of the most friendly dogs I have cared for besides the "standard" breeds have been APBTs. 

As others have said, I would concentrate on supervision of my child with any dog, regardless of the dog's breed or size. I have seen dogs who were puppy mill dogs (small dogs specifically) who are very cage aggressive and don't like being "poked." I've seen APBTs or mixes who grew up on a chain their entire life and be food aggressive. Although you do have to consider general characteristics of the particular breed, it cannot be overlooked in how they are raised either. 

Years ago I fostered an APBT that I rescued from the streets in a high-crime area. She was the absolute sweetest dog. I interviewed potential homes for her and one couple came with their young son. The lady was concerned how the dog would react around her child (similar concerns as the OP's I'm sure). As we watched the dog and child interact (under extremely close supervision), I witnessed the child throw a lump of dirt right in the dog's eyes and the dog continued to wag her tail the entire time. I politely told the people to "get out" because there was no way I was going to let the dog get "tortured" by that little boy. They never told him that it was wrong to do that to an animal- no comments to him whatsoever. I think that's also how some children get attacked- because their parents have not taught them what is proper behavior. Also, even with training of your child, some dogs react to their high pitched screams and noises (dogs mostly with a high prey drive) and attack because of that. (Just trying to say that it isn't always the child's fault.)


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Ilovealldogs
> Years ago I fostered an APBT that I rescued from the streets in a high-crime area. She was the absolute sweetest dog.


This is what most of the APBTs and mixes I've known were as well; most were stray rescues or taken from bad situations. I used to volunteer for shelters (walking dogs) which had a large percentage of pit bull types and also petsit and walk/train dogs for a police officer who did animal rescue. Most of her rescue dogs were from the streets of Chicago or rescued from places like the commercial garage where the owner was keeping a pregnant Rottweiler as a "guard dog" (one of the sweetest dogs I've met) or the bully-type mix who was chained to an abandoned car.




> Originally Posted By: Qyn
> No matter how good the majority of a dog breed may be with interacting within a family, if the possibility is there that that dog is not of the majority (and there is never any absolute with that) if you choose to have a child, then that child should always come first.


Yes, that is true but it doesn't only apply to pit bull type dogs, it applies to any breed. The worst bite I've ever gotten was from a stray Golden Retriever a friend had found (had to go to the emergency room, and still have scars.) Aside from that I've found in my personal experience small/toy breeds are the most likely to bite.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

Because this thread is already several pages long, and I know exactly what is being said (same topic, different day, different forum)......I leave my opinion as follows:























































We will always own a Pit Bull


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> 
> It is not everyone who owns one, but there is a huge percentage of pit bull type dog owners who are not going to care about home owners insurance, getting sued, and the like. The people are not going to go for temperament testing, good breeding practices and bloodlines, because they want a dog that can scrap, or they want a dog that appears bully.


EXACTLY!!! Those statistics apply to THOSE type of owners. The people who do not confine their dogs, and treat the dog as nothing more than a trophy (if that). Yes, accidents happen, but I doubt the good owners of pit bulls account for 1% of those attacks. The same dogs that are being cared for and temperament tested and worked (which can be as simple as socialization and basic training) are not going to be the dogs running amock attacking people.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

from my understanding "putbulls" were bred to be docile to humans, espcially children.
I had a thread several years ago that I posted stating "would you let your dog play with a pitbull" and it got like 5 pages of responses, lol.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Talk about being defensive. 

I have not talked bad about APBTs. Not even a little bit. I said that they are more likely to be involved in a fatal attack. I never said that they are more likely to bite. There is a big difference. I am talking about what I have read about in newspapers and information on the net. 

I have ten dogs, actually twelve at present. No they cannot pack up and eat anyone because they are kenneled separately. They are not feral. They are trained, have titles, have certifications, are socialized and the whole nine yards, but mostly because they are contained.

But I said several times that I would not allow my kids to a house with people who owned GSDs and other breeds unless I knew the people and their dogs. But your lack of being able to hear through the wall of your defencese is not allowing you to hear that I would not let a kid over to a house with a GSD either. I can put my dogs up. I can watch my kid. But no way do I trust someone else to put their dogs up, and watch my kid. Sorry. I have to know someone really well for that. 

Furthermore, as my dogs are not raised with children, if children are over my house, my dogs are kenneled. I may allow some one on one interaction with me present, but I do not let kids and my dogs run freely together, because I cannot take it back if one of them hurts the kid, even if it is just a nip or a single bite. And if I am not right there, I cannot know if the kid hurt my dog. For the couple of times that kids are at my house, my dogs can be under wraps, no problem.

The attitude of pit bull owners, not the irresponsible ones, but the attitude I hear reflected here that pitties are so wonderful with kids and a lot less likely to bite and all makes me LESS likely to let any kids I am in charge of in that situation -- me not present. Why? Because people believe their dogs would never..... And all they yayhoos whos dogs have, first thing out of their mouthes is, "he never.... I cannot believe it...."

There are many breeds that I would not allow such interaction. Pretty much any breed with the size and strength to kill a human being. And save for an infant, most smaller dogs will bite, and make you bleed, but are unlikely to kill even a child.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

I think people who have pits and the like get tired of hearing the negative press when they see day in and out how their dogs are just fine - they are NOT the monsters with kids that the press has said they are. I don't have a pit but I know I get so tired of reading the negative stereotypes. Not just because the dogs don't deserve it but because those stereotypes have been around for decades with various breeds. And tomorrow it will be another breed.

I agree that it is smart to introduce any child appropriately with a dog or dogs. If there is ever a worry with any breed, then don't have the child left alone.

I really like this testimonial of a child who was completely scared of dogs, changed when she was introduced to a pit ambassador:

http://arottalove.org/docs/Crossroad_Reference.pdf

"...she was able to use the knowledge to overcome her fear."

A child can overcome her fear of dogs in general through education by being introduced to a pit. What then can adults do?


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

I think the challenges to the statistical data have merit, I would be even more keen to see demographic data on the owners of dogs involved in fatalities....I think that would be infinitely more revealing about the problem.

With respect to banning a breed ("type") or gun...I don't own a gun or a Pit, but would not support taking aways those rights from anyone.

As a statement of fact....I personally was seriously mauled by a dog at the age of four. A nice neighbor lady invited me over to pick plums from a beautiful tree in their backyard.....the dog acidentally got to me. I was bitten several times in the legs, waist and shoulder. The dog was carrying me around the yard in its mouth and had to be beaten to get it to let go of me because after the first attempt I was treated like a tug, and as the dog shook its head, I screamed in pain. I am 47, and the memories are still very vivid. There is no doubt in my mind about the breed...period!

It was a German Shepherd Dog.

Wayne

Edit: Same old thing, can't spell. What makes me crazy is that I read it first, and then still find a stupid mistake after I post it!!!!


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## DorianE (Jan 5, 2009)

my son was mauled as a one year old by a chow. He too has the scars to prove it, head and back of neck, shoulders and legs. Thankfully, the one year old fell frowards and not backwards as the one wound was in the middle of the neck, where the throat would have been.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

The American Pit Bull Terrier is the product of interbreeding between terriers and a now-extinct breed of bulldogs to produce a dog that combined the gameness of the terrier with the strength and athleticism of the bulldog. These dogs were initially bred in England, Ireland, and Scotland, and arrived in the United States with immigrants from these countries. In the United States, these dogs were used as catch dogs for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, to drive livestock, and as family companions; however, some were selectively bred for their fighting prowess, and starting in the early 20th century, they began to replace the bull terrier as the "dog of choice" for dog fighting in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Bull

Although, some of you are correct that the dog is bred for fighting, that wasnt the intial reason for breeding these dogs.

Theyre bred NOW for fighting.


(I didnt read all 167 posts to this thread. So someone may have covered this already.)

Im not exactlycomfortable around Pitbulls either. But my buddy has a large Blue-nose, and he is like a giant teddy bear.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The "American" Pit Bull Terrier was bred in England, Ireland and Scotland??? Why would they name it the "American" PBT then?

Wikipedia is not a good source for information.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

http://www.petsdo.com/blog/top-ten-10-most-dangerous-dog-breeds



Here are a couple of links to look at. The second link provides comments for your viewing pleasures. Someone stated that little dogs bite more, and are more aggressive. Which is probably true. But whyen a large breed bites you, it causes more damage, as we know can result in death. 

You be the judge.


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

Not all are bred for fighting other dogs. And for those that were or were just caught up in those human criminal acts, it is possible to rehabilitate them as we have seen with Hector, one of Vick's dog's now an Ambassador in schools here in Minnesota.

If someone doesn't like a dog around their kids, then that is their choice. Each person must make that choice. Continuing the myths about pit bulls is something we should all fight against. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1300173


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobos
> 
> I really like this testimonial of a child who was completely scared of dogs, changed when she was introduced to a pit ambassador:
> 
> ...


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08The "American" Pit Bull Terrier was bred in England, Ireland and Scotland??? Why would they name it the "American" PBT then?
> 
> Wikipedia is not a good source for information.


"pitbull" isnt an actual breed of dog. 

Pit bull is a term commonly used to describe several breeds of dog in the Molosser family. Many breed-specific laws use the term "pit bull" to refer to the modern American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and dogs with significant mixes of these breeds; however, a few jurisdictions also classify the modern American Bulldog and Bull Terrier as a "pit bull-type dog". The term can also refer to dogs that were known as "bull terriers" prior to the development of the modern Bull Terrier in the early 20th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_Bull


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AngelesVonLobosNot all are bred for fighting other dogs. And for those that were or were just caught up in those human criminal acts, it is possible to rehabilitate them as we have seen with Hector, one of Vick's dog's now an Ambassador in schools here in Minnesota.
> 
> If someone doesn't like a dog around their kids, then that is their choice. Each person must make that choice. Continuing the myths about pit bulls is something we should all fight against.
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1300173



I retract my statement of people breed Pitbulls for the sole purpose of fighting them. Im sure that isnt accurate. I apologize, Angeles. 

The general idea that the average American thinks when they see Pitbull is "fighting dog" is what I was kind of getting at.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: The Sergeant
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Jax08The "American" Pit Bull Terrier was bred in England, Ireland and Scotland??? Why would they name it the "American" PBT then?
> ...


Do you have any actual knowledge and/or practical experience of the breed or are you just quoting off a site where anyone can enter unverified information? If that is all you are doing...what's the point?

Where is Tuco when you need him?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08Where is Tuco when you need him?


Or J's mom.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

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^ Laurence, Charles (2004-01-04). "Q: When is a pit bull terrier not a pit bull terrier? A: When it's a patriot terrier". The Daily Telegraph (London, UK). http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...t-terrier.html. Retrieved 2009-11-14. 
^ "American Staffordshire Terrier History". American Kennel Club. 2009. http://www.akc.org/breeds/american_staffordshire_terrier/history.cfm. Retrieved 2009-08-03. 
^ "Stubby of A.E.F. enters Valhalla". The New York Times (New York, NY). 1926-04-04. http://www.ct.gov/mil/cwp/view.asp?a=1351&q=257958. Retrieved 2009-08-03. 
^ "Stubby the Military Dog". Connecticut Military Department. 2003-07-16. http://www.ct.gov/mil/cwp/view.asp?a=1351&q=257892. Retrieved 2009-08-03. 
^ "The Price of Freedom: Stubby". National Museum of American History. http://americanhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID=15. Retrieved 2009-11-05. 
^ "Staffordshire Bull Terrier History". American Kennel Club. 2009. http://www.akc.org/breeds/staffordshire_bull_terrier/history.cfm. Retrieved 2009-08-03. 
^ Phillips, Kenneth. "Dangerous and vicious dogs". http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/danger.htm. Retrieved 2009-10-27. 
^ "Who let the dogs out? a genetic classification of dog breeds". National Institutes of Health. 2004-10-13. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book=coffeebrk&part=A643. Retrieved 2009-07-26. 
^ Szuchman, Paula (2009-09-18). "Beagle or Bichon: Can Dog Drool Provide Insight?". The Wall Street Journal (New York, NY). http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204518504574416810535466706.html. Retrieved 2009-11-16. 
^ Frazho, J.K.; Tano, C.A.; Ferrell, E.A. (2008-09-01). "Diagnosis and treatment of dynamic closed-mouth jaw locking in a dog". Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 233 (5): 748–751. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18764710. Retrieved 2009-10-01. 
^ "Toledo v. Tellings, -REVERSED-, 2006-Ohio-975, ¶25". Court of Appeals of Ohio, Sixth Appellate District. http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/rod/docs/pdf/6/2006/2006-ohio-975.pdf. Retrieved 2009-10-02. 
^ "Breaking up a fight". Pit Bull Rescue Central. 2008. http://www.pbrc.net/breakfight.html. Retrieved 2009-08-16. 
^ "Pros and cons of owning a pit bull". Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pitbulls (BADRAP). 2007. http://www.badrap.org/rescue/owning.cfm. Retrieved 2009-08-16. 
^ "Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998". Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 2000-09-15. http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf. Retrieved 2009-07-08. 
^ "Dog Bite: Fact Sheet". Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. 2008-04-01. http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Dog-Bites/dogbite-factsheet.html. Retrieved 2009-07-08. 
^ "Animal People". http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/. Retrieved 2009-07-13. 
^ "Dog attack deaths and maimings, US & Canada, September 1982 - January 1, 2008". 2008-01-01. http://www.scribd.com/doc/11249213/Dog-A...o-January-2008. Retrieved 2009-07-14. 
^ "Dog attack deaths and maimings, US & Canada, September 1982 - November 13, 2006". 2006-11-07. http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf. Retrieved 2009-07-13. 
^ Raghavan, Malathi (June 2008). "Fatal dog attacks in Canada, 1990–2007". The Canadian Veterinary Journal (La Revue vétérinaire canadienne) 49 (6): 577–581. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2387261/. 
^ "Garrison Policy Memorandum #08-10, Mandatory Pet Micro-Chipping and Pet Control". US Army Installation Management Command, Fort Drum, NY. 2009-02-03. http://www.scribd.com/doc/13296614/US-Army-Bans-Pit-Bulls-and-Other-Breeds-from-All-RCI-Housing. Retrieved 2009-08-03. 
^ "Marine Corps Housing Management". United States Marine Corps. 2009-08-11. http://www.mcrdpi.usmc.mil/ops/housing/docs/PETPOLICY.pdf. Retrieved 2009-11-16. 
^ "States prohibiting or allowing breed specific ordinances". American Veterinary Medical Association. October 2007. http://www.avma.org/advocacy/state/issues/sr_breed_ordinances.asp. Retrieved 2009-07-12. 
^ Campbell, Dana (July/August 2009). "Pit Bull Bans: The State of Breed–Specific Legislation". GP-Solo (American Bar Association) 26 (5). http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/magazine/2009/jul_aug/pitbull.html. Retrieved July 30, 2009. 
^ Lynn, Colleen (2009). "About dogsbite.org: Common Sense Laws". dogsbite.org. http://www.dogsbite.org/about-dogsbite.htm. Retrieved 2009-07-11. 
^ Nelson, Kory (2005). "One city's experience: why pit bulls are more dangerous and why breed-specific legislation is justified". Municipal Lawyer 46 (6): pp. 12–15. August 2005. http://www.dogbitelaw.com/pitbullDenver.pdf. Retrieved 2009-07-11. 
^ "HSUS Statement on Dangerous Dogs". Humane Society of the United States. 2009. http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affecting_our_pets/dangerous_dogs.html. Retrieved 2009-07-11. 
^ "A community approach to dog bite prevention". Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association 218 (11): pp. 1731–1749. June 1, 2001. http://www.avma.org/public_health/dogbite/dogbite.pdf. Retrieved 2009-07-11. 
^ Phillips, Kenneth (October 10, 2008). "Breed Specific Laws". dogbitelaw.com. http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/breedlaws.html#arguments. Retrieved 2009-07-11. 
^ Barlow, Karen (2005-05-03). "NSW bans pit bull terrier breed". Sydney, Australia: Australian Broadcasting Corporation. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2005/s1359018.htm. Retrieved 2009-12-23. 
^ Hughes, Gary (2009-10-20). "Pit bull bite prompts call for national approach to dangerous dog breeds". The Australian (Sydney, Australia). http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/pit...-1225788552051. Retrieved 2009-12-23. 
^ a b c "Dog Bite Liability". Insurance Information Institute. 2009-09. http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/dogbite/. Retrieved 2009-09-24. 
^ "Homeowners Insurance Available to Breeds Previously Excluded with CGC Certification". American Kennel Club. 2004-10-01. http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=2408. Retrieved 2009-02-04. 
^ "Ohio Revised Code, Chapter 955 (Dogs)". State of Ohio. 2008-06-15. http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/955. Retrieved 2009-07-22. 
^ Ganz, Katy (2009-03-19). "Counties have special rules for pit bulls". The Daily Record (Wooster, Ohio). http://www.the-daily-record.com/news/article/4549495. Retrieved 2009-09-24. 
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Here is all the references used to gather all the information on that specific website.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Quick! Someone get a bucket! Google just puked all over the board!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ahhh...Ridiculous Rita...here's a shovel, a pitchfork and a wheelbarrow. Got any Muck boots?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

JennNayNay don't shovel or take any ****


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am humanely putting this thread to sleep.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Since this is still open, I will put in my 2 cents after reading through the thread.

People need to stop believing what the media says.Its sooooo annoying! Even when I see it on the news I roll my eyes and go "I bet it wasn't even a pitbull." People need to read the WHOLE article and get the WHOLE story and they will realize it wasn't the dog's fault at all! 

Usually, it will say "The 10 year old girl was out side unsupervised with a "pitbull" tethered to a pole." You can clearly see the problem there. Or the people will claim the dog was "so nice and never showed it before" but later you find out the dog was tethered, intact, and other issues. It all points back to the owner.

Has anyone heard of the saying "When you point a finger, 3 more are pointing back at you."? 

I volunteer at a shelter and pitbulls are one of the many residents there, along with Chihuahuas. I get in the kennel, play, pet, train, walk, cuddle, hug pitbulls of all ages and from all walks of life. Yes little dogs can be little gremlins, but not all are mean either! Not ONE pitbull has bit me or showed agression towards me. Same goes for those little dogs.

You know how easy it is for people to say these things about GSDs? Thank god I have been around all sorts of dog breeds. My aunt bred Dobermans, I have been around many Dobermans. My neighbor had a Rottie named Kitty, seet as can be, and I have met many Rotties as well. I have been around so many Poms and Chihuhuas some were fiesty, but none were mean.

My friend owns Minpin/JRT mixes, they are super sweet to me, but they have almost bit some people and have some behavorial issues. But guess what? My friend does NOT have them vaccinated for anything, they are not spayed, not trained or socialized. She asked if I wanted to walk my dogs to her house so her dogs could meet my dogs. What did I say? "No. your dogs are not vaccinated, spayed, trained, or socialized." She said, "they are nice to you.why can't they?" I told her "Thats different. Your dogs will bite my dogs and god knows what else. and my dogs can take out your dogs."

Not ONCE have I blamed the dog, let alone the breed. Its pointless. Because most of the time, it all comes back to the owner!

I had enough of people who think its the breed, and it was bred into them. Get the facts, get the real details. Don't trust something on the net. The net is less reliable. UC Santa Barbarabra forbids its students from using the internet on their reports and research because it can be very unreliable.

Blame the DEED not the BREED.


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

You know the OP hasn't even been on here since like page 2...lol

Personally, I love pits.   They are wonderful dogs and so happy with life. There is a staff bull terrier who is a "mascot" for our vets office who wonders around all the time and even jumps on the counters to give you a kiss, he's soooo sweet. 

I noticed the people who "encounter" "dangerous" pits don't see these guys at dogs shows, weight pulling events, UKC shows, etc. Pits are great dogs.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I know.lol

I just needed to vent. I fall with half of the pits at my shelter.

I think if it were my kid I would want to make sure someone is supervising the kids, if there is a dog or not.

If they have a dog, they better be responsible dog owners!lol. My friend is a good example of a bad dog owner, I will not let my kids around her dogs or her house because of no only dog related reasons but other reasons as well.(Drugs)

But yes, people really need to get to know the breed. I have never been to dog shows, but being around pits at the shelter made me fall in love with them:wub:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

StarryNite said:


> Oh, and how can I say "I don't want my daughter to play there because you have a Pit Bull but I have a GSD if he wants to play here"
> GRRRRR


Meet the family, meet the pit and go from there. 

Talk to them, be honest. Tell them that you have a GSD and as a responsible mother you want to know where your daughter is going and that they can come over to your house to if they want to see the GSD before they decide whether their son is coming over or not.


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## MikeMartinez10 (Mar 18, 2010)

I agree with Mrs.k comment , iv had many pitbulls and they are wonderful family dogs they do tend to be very aggressive with other dogs though . I would go meet the dog and go from there , it might give you a whole different perspective on that breed . I also have a 5 year old daughter and i would like to meet any dog that is going to be around her because any dog can be dangerous .


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thread being closed again.


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