# Am I the problem? Is he the problem? What's going on?



## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Alright, this is going to get kind of long, but here goes...

The Vet gave Koda the okay to run around after his Heartworm treatment, and after triple checking with her, she confirmed that dog parks were okay. I have had some not so pleasant experiences at the dog park with him, which seemed to have sparked up some fear aggression with him (Though now I'm not so sure), but I have a friend who has dealt with fear aggressive dogs that said he would try to help me with Koda and see what was up with him at the dog park.

So yesterday, my friend and I went to the dog park with Koda, he went in with him on lead, I stayed out of the park. The point was to see how he did without me there. He was completely fine. He didn't have a problem with a single dog, not a single dog had a problem with him. After Koda was allowed to greet every dog on lead and he proved himself to be okay, he was let off lead, he was still completely fine. This leads me to believe that I might be part of the problem. For anyone who doesn't know, Koda was attacked on three separate occasions, which in turn, seemed to make him fear aggressive. He began growling at certain male dogs when I brought him to the park, before beginning his Heartworm treatment, and he went after a Rottie. This made me extremely weary of bringing him back to the park after he completed his treatment. He was absolutely fine before those attacks. With his behavior yesterday without me in the park, it leads me to believe I might be part of the problem. Am I sending out bad vibes? Can he sense that I'm afraid of another attack on him, and that caused him to be on alert with other dogs, then become aggressive? As I said, I observed him from outside of the park, and he didn't have any sort of issue last night.

Okay, so fast forward to tonight. My friend wasn't there tonight, but I decided I would simulate last night and see if he would do well again. I brought him in again tonight on lead to do a once around and greet all the dogs on lead, make sure he was okay, then if so I planned to let him off as with last night. There weren't as many dogs, he greeted all of them well. I was as calm as I could be, I didn't go in there expecting him to get attacked, or him to be fear aggressive towards another dog, I didn't expect anything, but I was watching his body language closely, as well as all of the other dogs. We encountered a male dog, he was fine, we kept walking. We encountered a female dog, he loved her, we kept walking. Finally, we got to a dog that he saw last night. They got along then, but for whatever reason, this dog went after Koda. Koda didn't fight back, it was over quick, I bailed right after that. The only thing I can tell in Koda's body language is that he approached the dog confidently, not the least bit aggressively though. Koda didn't growl at him, didn't bark at him, nothing that said, "Attack me", that I could tell. The only thing I saw was that Koda had his head held high and tail erect and seemed confident, but not dominant over the dog.

This is now the fourth time that a dog has attacked Koda. I was reading that when someone says "My dog keeps getting attacked", that it indicates a problem. He must be doing something to set other dogs off, there's no way that other dogs just dislike him this much. What is it though? What signals is he giving that I'm missing? He's unaltered, and can't be until August when they retest to ensure that the Heartworm is gone as they can't put him under anesthesia. Is that part of the problem as well? Again, was I sending some kind of signal or vibe out that caused him to become slightly fear aggressive before?

Either way, I don't know how many times it was going to take before I freaking got it, but I'm now done with dog parks for good. It's play dates from now on with dogs that I know and trust. Despite whatever Koda is doing to get attacked, the more it happens, the worse off he'll be. I just want to know what kind of signals I was missing. I thought I knew what to look for, but he's got to be doing _something_ that I'm missing. There's no way he's this unlucky.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but does anyone know what the issue with his behavior, or my behavior/vibes/whatever might be?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

You know, i really don't have any good advice, but it kind of reminds me of one of my friends dogs. He's probably the sweetest rottweiler or dog you could ever meet. This dog literally wouldn't hurt a fly. He loves everyone and every dog he meets. Never barked in his life, but for some reason, he always gets attacked. He never shows dominance at all with other dogs, but for some reason, he always gets attacked when he goes to the dog park. For some reason, dogs just bolt to him out of no where and just attack. I've seen it happen multiple times and have no idea why it happens, but it does. It's really weird.

Something must be going on with the signals that either he's sending or you're sending. Maybe you can call around and speak to some dog trainers who specialize in this kind of stuff. Professionals know how to deal with dogs a lot better because they can actually work with and see the dog with other dogs in person. It's kind of difficult to give advice on this kind of stuff over the internet without seeing the actual interactions. I think speaking with a professional is the way to go.

For now, i think you have the right idea. Leave the dog parks alone for now until you can get a handle on things. If he keeps getting attacked, only bad things can come from that. Lucy's been in her share of fights at the park and i've given up on them. It's only playdates with friends dogs for now. Getting attacked leads to fear issues and fear issues are not easy to get over.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> *This is now the fourth time that a dog has attacked Koda.* I was reading that when someone says "My dog keeps getting attacked", that it indicates a problem. He must be doing something to set other dogs off, there's no way that other dogs just dislike him this much. What is it though? What signals is he giving that I'm missing? He's unaltered, and can't be until August when they retest to ensure that the Heartworm is gone as they can't put him under anesthesia. Is that part of the problem as well? Again, was I sending some kind of signal or vibe out that caused him to become slightly fear aggressive before?


There are alot of quiet subtle signals between dogs that we miss. And it may not be that your dog is being 'agressive' per say that causes the attack. But he may not have the proper dog 'manners' that prevent these situation. 

Our dogs just putting their head down to sniff the ground CAN AVOID A FIGHT.

Our dogs just breaking eye contact CAN AVOID A FIGHT.

Our dogs yawning CAN AVOID A FIGHT.

But if our dogs haven't learned these calming signals, and we don't recognize these signals, then there are some dogs that do seem to get jumped all the time. 

I would ABSOLUTELY avoid dog parks for the time being. Just have contact with other dogs you KNOW are ok, or at dog classes and controlled situations. It's vital you do not avoid all dogs or this will get worse (as well as your nervousness).

In the meantime, I really recommend purchasing the DVD 'Calming Signals' by Turid Rugass, really opened up my eyes to the fuller range of dog communication and the stuff I can do to help. Amazon.com: Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You: Turid Rugaas: Movies & TV


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> *
> I would ABSOLUTELY avoid dog parks for the time being. Just have contact with other dogs you KNOW are ok, or at dog classes and controlled situations. It's vital you do not avoid all dogs or this will get worse (as well as your nervousness).*
> 
> In the meantime, I really recommend purchasing the DVD 'Calming Signals' by Turid Rugass, really opened up my eyes to the fuller range of dog communication and the stuff I can do to help.
> ...


Absolutely. 

I think the answer to your question is the environment of the dog park is a problem. As with any problem there is no "the" answer, but a bunch of pieces. But I think that is a huge piece! Good luck! 

I know after HW treatment too they are a little crazed from lack of activity, and overwhelmed by too much of it, or too much stimulation after all that down time. So like anyone who hasn't felt well, they can not be themselves so much.


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## Ausdembruch gsd (May 29, 2010)

A key here seems to be he was with you. Things were different with when with your friend right? I'll bet he's really attached to Mom. Attached and protective. Our big guy Johann will love anyone, human or canine, but he's very protective of Mom.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

how old is Koda?


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

the OP's dog is being attacked.
i don't think he's being protective.
the OP's dog isn't starting the fights.



Ausdembruch gsd said:


> A key here seems to be he was with you. Things were different with when with your friend right? I'll bet he's really attached to Mom. Attached and protective. Our big guy Johann will love anyone, human or canine, but he's very protective of Mom.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Koda was a stray, so we can't be sure on his age, but when we first got him and brought him to the Vet, she approximated between one and two, so we said a year and a half, meaning he'll be two in September. As I said, he's not yet neutered, and can't be until August.

As far as him acting differently around me/being protective/whatever, I don't know. Prior to the first three attacks, he would stand there and get mounted by dog after dog and not do a thing. After those attacks he seemed to be on alert and would growl at certain male dogs (completely fine with others and all females), then start barking at some, and went after a Rottie one time, as I said. That's what led me to believe he started to develop a fear aggression issue. The first night my friend brought him into the park without me, however, he displayed absolutely no issue with any dog, even the one he encountered that attacked him the second night when I brought him in.

I really think it has something to do with him not knowing dog etiquette or manners, he's got to be giving off signals to keep getting attacked. Why he started to get aggressive himself had to do with either my energy or vibes, or fear. Without me there, he seemed fine.

Either way, he needs to keep seeing dogs, as was stated above, so play dates are in order. There's a nice female Mastiff down the street who would make a nice companion for him. Dog parks are no more, he can't keep getting attacked. I will eventually look into a trainer when the time comes, but even still, it doesn't seem like attempting to bring him back to the dog park is worth it if the possibility is there for continued attacks.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Melina said:


> He's unaltered, and can't be until August when they retest to ensure that the Heartworm is gone as they can't put him under anesthesia. Is that part of the problem as well? Again, was I sending some kind of signal or vibe out that caused him to become slightly fear aggressive before?



I'm going to take a guess and say that both of these are factors. The fact that he was fine when you weren't there with him, and you're aware that you were watchful and wary when you WERE there tells me that he was probably picking up and that and in some subtle way, acting differently.

Shortly before I neutered Keefer (at 15 months old) he got charged 4 times in one visit to the park. That had NEVER happened before, and I know that his behavior didn't set it off because at least one of the times he was trotting along minding his own business and didn't so much as glance at the other dog, and another time he was squatting to poop. There was no damage, it was all verbal and we stepped in immediately, but I decided right then and there that I wasn't going to wait any longer to have him neutered. I can only assume that the other dogs were reacting to him nearing sexual maturity and the scent of hormones. Although he's somewhat leash reactive, he's always been friendly and social with other dogs off leash, greeting them with a tail wag, sniffs, and often muzzle licks, and I didn't want that to change. I was afraid that if he suddenly started getting picked on he might develop a "get 'em before they get me" attitude which would seriously curtail his off leash adventures. Fortunately, it hasn't become a problem and he's still the sweet boy he's always been. :wub:

Although I have great open space off leash parks to take my dogs to and have been doing so regularly for nearly 9 years, I do believe that not all dogs are good candidates for that kind of environment, and even those that are I wouldn't take to just any old dog park - depends on the park, depends on the dog. It may be that Koda is one of those dogs that will never be completely comfortable off leash around a bunch of strange dogs, or it may be that once he's neutered he'll stop being picked on and start having fun. Who knows? 

But I would be extremely careful around dominant posturing, such as mounting or putting a head over the neck. My dogs will do that sort of thing to each other in play all the time and neither of them mind at all. But they do not do it to strange dogs, and they don't tolerate it well when other dogs do it to them. So if I see dogs behaving like that, even in play, we steer clear. If I don't notice dogs doing it in time to pick a different line through the park to avoid them and they start to do it to one of my dogs I step in immediately to stop it. I'll often say something to the owner as well, especially if they seem clueless that their dog is being rude and may possibly cause a fight. 

Poor Koda is being mounted by dog after dog - no wonder he objects! They're challenging him, he doesn't like it, and either goes after other male dogs in response or as a proactive measure. By not submitting (and really, why should he have to take that?), it provokes the other dog to attack. I see it as my responsibility to protect my dogs, I don't want them to be in situations where they feel they have to take things into their own paws.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Poor Koda is being mounted by dog after dog - no wonder he objects! They're challenging him, he doesn't like it, and either goes after other male dogs in response or as a proactive measure. By not submitting (and really, why should he have to take that?), it provokes the other dog to attack. I see it as my responsibility to protect my dogs, I don't want them to be in situations where they feel they have to take things into their own paws.


Well, I meant that he was completely fine with every other dog at the dog park prior to being attacked three times. He would get mounted and not react to it. Of course I would get the owner to pull the dog off him, or do it myself. The point is, he wasn't aggressive, or reactive when that happened. After the three attacks, he started to growl at certain male dogs, bark, etc., so I thought he was getting fear aggressive. Now I'm not so sure as per his behavior the other night without me in the park. He also keeps getting attacked. Last night he didn't react to the attack, he didn't fight back. As with the other three, he didn't fight back either. I'm just steering clear of the parks. I can't wait to get him neutered, I think that's a huge part of the problem. I may try taking him back a few months after he's neutered and the hormones are out of his system to see if that was making him more of a target.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Dont mean to hijack this thread, but just yesterday I was told by trainer to consider doggie day care for my 15 week old so he can learn some dog manners and learn to play...as I read through this text I am confused, I don't know what to do, go to a dog park or drop him off...sounds like IF you don't know any SAFE dogs you're out of luck which is my situation. I know someone with a 10 month old GSD but I fear he will play to rough. How do I avoid exactly what has happened to Koda?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you weren't doing anything to prevent it - thanks for clarifying. Even though he didn't react aggressively when it happened, he may have just gotten tired of being picked on and decided he wasn't going to allow it anymore. 

Is this a small enclosed park or a big open space? One thing I don't like about the smaller fenced parks is that people are usually standing around watching the dogs play because there's not much else for them to do, and often pack behavior can develop, where the dogs already in the park will gang up on the newcomers. I much prefer open spaces where people are walking with their dogs, and they can stop and chat with someone if their dogs hit it off and want to play, or avoid any groups where there is rude or bullying behavior going on. Packs don't really form and there's no small entrance area where dogs can be targeted. Do you have any place like that where you could go after he's neutered?

As far as him acting differently when you're there vs when you're not, I have a weird story about Keefer to share. I usually do the vacuuming, and he's always awful - barking and biting at it as soon as I turn it on. When it's just parked there doing nothing he couldn't care less. Rather than even bother dealing with him I usually put him outside when I vacuum. One day my husband decided to vacuum and I was amazed that Keefer didn't even seem to notice that the vacuum was on. He completely ignored it, and at one point wandered out of the room to his crate, where he likes to nap. I stopped Tom and took the vacuum myself - Keefer immediately attacked it again! We went back and forth a couple of times, and every single time *I* touched the vacuum when it was on he reacted, and every time Tom did, he didn't react. Why? It's a mystery. :thinking: He also gets snarky with Halo when I'm putting their food into bowls and I thought that's just how he is, he did the same thing with Dena. But again, I noticed one time when Tom was feeding them Keef remained calm and quiet. I asked him about that and he said Keefer NEVER reacts that way when he feeds them. Keefer is very much MY dog, he worships me, so that obviously has something to do with it, but other than that I have no idea.


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## Melina (Feb 20, 2010)

Cassidy, that is so weird. Koda is very much my dog as well. He would follow me around the house before he would anyone else. He gets upset and gives me the "sad eye", waiting by the door when I leave to go to work or anywhere else, not when anyone else leaves. He waits for me outside the bedroom door if I'm showering and getting ready for work, or to go out, then prances around and leaps like a bunny thinking he's going with me. It's the cutest thing ever. He doesn't do that with anyone else in the house.

Maybe his attachment to me spawned some of his behavior in the park after the attacks, who knows. As I've said a bunch of times now, no parks anymore, at least until after he's neutered, then a few months after that I may experiment. I'll find people for play dates.


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