# What do you think these lil sausages will look like?



## Guest (Jun 18, 2019)

Helllloo! These are the puppies not even a week old, and their parents


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

Your female has such beautiful colorings. Its hard to tell when they are so small but you can see a lot of light colors coming through their black puppy coat. They are super adorable no matter what  Good luck with them!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Your female is a liver (is she purebred?) bred to a sable. So what color are the puppies?


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

The mom makes Lassie pop out in my mind. Don’t remember what breed she was though. 

Your male is GORGEOUS! 

No clue on coloring, I haven’t the brain power to learn all the coat colors and possible coats for pups. I don’t breed, so I just enjoy my guys and don’t worry about what color other peoples litters are, because all pups are adorable no matter the color!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

From what I think I understand, liver is recessive, so if the male carries liver, some of the pups may end up liver, like the dam. She also appears to be a longcoat to me, so if the male also carries that gene, some of the pups could end up with long hair too. I guess we will see!

Others will let me know if I got anything incorrect.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

My guess is that they will have four legs and probably tails. Most will likely resemble dogs. :smile2:


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> My guess is that they will have four legs and probably tails. Most will likely resemble dogs. /forum/images/Germanshepherds_2016/smilies/tango_face_smile.png


???. Best. Answer. Ever.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Mom is a liver and tan long coat.

Dad is a patterned sable short stock coat. 

Dad would need to carry a liver gene to produce any livers, or a long coat gene to produce any long coats.

Puppies appear to be: 5 (3?) Black and Tan - likely to get moms pattern but not her liver coloring. The 2 (4?) sables will most likely be patterned like dad.

Coats all look to be short stock coats so far. The darker sable pup MIGHT be a long coat (wavy head), too soon to tell.

Ps. Lassie was a rough collie


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

My first GSD had been named Lassie by her owner. He had to give her up when he went into a nursing home.

Having grown up with the Lassie TV series, I had to rename her. I called her Lili Marlene, after the famous WWII song. A German name for a German dog, and I figured Lili sounded enough like Lassie that the change wouldn't be difficult!

Yes, long coat and liver genes are both recessive, so pups will all be stock coat and sable or black and tan, unless Dad carries those genes.

Sable is dominant over black and tan, so if some pups have the black and tan pattern like Mom, the father must carry for black and tan. If he were homozygous for the sable gene, he would only produce sable pups.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2019)

Just a 3 week pupdate!!


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Kayla Wacker said:


> Just a 3 week pupdate!!


 I’ll take the two that clearly look to be sable ?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Liver a dilute. Her nose is brown. I never bred a liver or a blue, so I really don't know how that will affect the pigment in the litter as a whole. Yes, liver is a color, but the bitch is a dilute. Breeding off-colors is usually frowned upon. I hope you find nice homes for the puppies. Hopefully there will be no liver puppies, and those light color pups are red sables. Evenso, a liver breeder might want to pick up one of your pups as it probably will have the carrier even if it is not liver.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Did you guys lose a pup?

From the most recent photo - 3 Black and Tan, 3 sables... all appear to be stock coats.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wait...are these your puppies? Did you just start another thread looking for a breeder and that you've never had a dog before?


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

I believe the OP is looking at this litter for a potential puppy. Not a fan of the color but each their own.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Also started a thread earlier about not potty training her pup correctly, and asking for help on that topic ?‍♀


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

Then I’m confused as well


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

oh geez...why don't we let the OP answer my question instead of everyone else answering for them.

Yes, she started a thread asking HOW to take care of a puppy while working full time. It's a legit question when preparing to bring a puppy home.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

the OP has not posting anything misleading or confusing.... it’s the replies, mine included, and the piggy back on those replies. seems pretty clear that this is a litter that the OP plans to get their first pup, i believe they said in august. the potty training post is asking for suggestions in advance.

am i missing something?


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> oh geez...why don't we let the OP answer my question instead of everyone else answering for them.
> 
> Yes, she started a thread asking HOW to take care of a puppy while working full time. It's a legit question when preparing to bring a puppy home.


Didn’t realize you were the only member allowed to question topics or members. Next time I’ll just wait around to see their responses to you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jchrest said:


> Didn’t realize you were the only member allowed to question topics or members. Next time I’ll just wait around to see their responses to you.


there is no reason to be snarky or create drama with me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Fodder said:


> the OP has not posting anything misleading or confusing.... it’s the replies, mine included, and the piggy back on those replies. seems pretty clear that this is a litter that the OP plans to get their first pup, i believe they said in august. the potty training post is asking for suggestions in advance.
> 
> am i missing something?


No, I was. I didn't see all her other threads, and just vaguely caught a sentence of one while I was working so wasn't sure if it was her thread, about getting a new puppy and the way this one was posted it appeared to be her litter.

Yeah, the potty training thread was really straight forward. All of the other threads were straight forward


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> oh geez...why don't we let the OP answer my question instead of everyone else answering for them.
> 
> Yes, she started a thread asking HOW to take care of a puppy while working full time. It's a legit question when preparing to bring a puppy home.


Ditto


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My bad, when people were saying, "your female," I thought it was the OPs litter. 

I wouldn't purchase a pup from a liver, because a liver should never be bred. And because people breeding for off colors are generally ignoring other important traits to get those colors. I would keep looking.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2019)

These are not mine lol. One of them WILL BE mine. I just wanted to share the puppies :/ I thought they were cute, like someone said to each his own, and we arent buying to show or anything like that so the liver is actually a very pretty color, sadly none of them will be liver with the updated pictures i got. 



Jchrest said:


> Also started a thread earlier about not potty training her pup correctly, and asking for help on that topic ?‍♀


? Uh no I did not fail on potty training correctly, im trying to prevent that before it even happens.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2019)

selzer said:


> My bad, when people were saying, "your female," I thought it was the OPs litter.
> 
> I wouldn't purchase a pup from a liver, because a liver should never be bred. And because people breeding for off colors are generally ignoring other important traits to get those colors. I would keep looking.


Never stated "MY FEMALE" I said here are the parents.



Fodder said:


> the OP has not posting anything misleading or confusing.... it’s the replies, mine included, and the piggy back on those replies. seems pretty clear that this is a litter that the OP plans to get their first pup, i believe they said in august. the potty training post is asking for suggestions in advance.
> 
> am i missing something?


You are the only person who is actually spot on. People are just assuming things.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Kayla Wacker said:


> These are not mine lol. One of them WILL BE mine. I just wanted to share the puppies :/ I thought they were cute, like someone said to each his own, and we arent buying to show or anything like that so the liver is actually a very pretty color, sadly none of them will be liver with the updated pictures i got.
> 
> 
> .


Generally, when people just post pictures of a litter like that without information, it's their litter. So I assumed it was yours and I said "your female" first. 

So are you looking for a breeder or not? You have a thread asking for one??

Just my opinion, you may not be buying to show but I believe a dog bought just for a pet needs to be of the highest quality and best temperaments. Pets don't usually get the training a sport dog does so less impulse control is worked on. Their drives aren't challenged like a sport dog. And often they are exposed to more weird things and active environments than a sport dog. We tend to try to bubble wrap our dogs to keep them from bad experiences and injuries. Don't go for less because you think you "only need a pet". 

And! Make sure before you buy that the parents are at least health tested for OFAs and that their pedigrees show others in the line were. If for some reason you still choose to go forward, make sure you put health insurance on the puppy as soon as you get him. Hip surgeries are expensive. I've spents thousands on allergies in the last couple of years between testing and meds, and my dog is very well bred.


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2019)

Jax08 said:


> Generally, when people just post pictures of a litter like that without information, it's their litter. So I assumed it was yours and I said "your female" first.
> 
> So are you looking for a breeder or not? You have a thread asking for one??
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your input!!


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## Carol Kadia (Jul 8, 2019)

I'm new to the forum and totally new to "dog speak". 

Could someone please clarify what is meant by " liver". Does it have to do with coloring or does it have to do with the body organ?

I tried looking it up but don't seem to come up with any clarity.

Thank you


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

Carol Kadia said:


> I'm new to the forum and totally new to "dog speak".
> 
> Could someone please clarify what is meant by " liver". Does it have to do with coloring or does it have to do with the body organ?
> 
> ...


Its a coat color, the female is a "liver" brown. I actually love the color and don't understand why others don't but I get its not a "standard" for the breed.


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## Carol Kadia (Jul 8, 2019)

Carol Kadia said:


> I'm new to the forum and totally new to "dog speak".
> 
> Could someone please clarify what is meant by " liver". Does it have to do with coloring or does it have to do with the body organ?
> 
> ...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LRP said:


> Its a coat color, the female is a "liver" brown. I actually love the color and don't understand why others don't but I get its not a "standard" for the breed.


It is not that we don't like it, most of us have stated that it's a stunning color. We have issues with off standard dogs and dogs with no testing being purposely bred. 
This whole excuse of "but I just want a pet" does not hold water. A pet is the single most important job a dog can have, and to say that you are willing to accept a lesser dog to fill that role is crazy. Pets need to be every bit as healthy and stable as a working dog. 

My Sabi was a BYB dog. Love of my life, best partner ever. That girl owned my soul. I miss her every day. 

She was diagnosed with DM. I got to watch that. I will NEVER condone "pet breeding". And if you see a liver being bred you can pretty much guarantee that's what it is.


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> It is not that we don't like it, most of us have stated that it's a stunning color. We have issues with off standard dogs and dogs with no testing being purposely bred.
> This whole excuse of "but I just want a pet" does not hold water. A pet is the single most important job a dog can have, and to say that you are willing to accept a lesser dog to fill that role is crazy. Pets need to be every bit as healthy and stable as a working dog.
> 
> My Sabi was a BYB dog. Love of my life, best partner ever. That girl owned my soul. I miss her every day.
> ...


Both our dogs were BYB and both of them came from well loved homes with healthy parents on site. They did not have papers but they were well cared for. I am actually fixing our female tomorrow because we do not want to take any chance of them breeding. We don't encourage it... but we will love these dogs and care for them because they are here, regardless of how they got here, they are our family and we will love them for however long we are blessed to have them. 

I get what you are saying, I would never want anyone to breed dogs that will not be healthy - but if a liver is already here and I had a chance to own one, I would - just no breeding


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LRP said:


> Both our dogs were BYB and both of them came from well loved homes with healthy parents on site. They did not have papers but they were well cared for. I am actually fixing our female tomorrow because we do not want to take any chance of them breeding. We don't encourage it... but we will love these dogs and care for them because they are here, regardless of how they got here, they are our family and we will love them for however long we are blessed to have them.
> 
> I get what you are saying, I would never want anyone to breed dogs that will not be healthy - but if a liver is already here and I had a chance to own one, I would - just no breeding


Unless a dog has health testing done, you don't know its healthy. That was my point. Sabi was a fit, healthy dog who never put a wrong foot down, until she did. And unless you know the pedigree you have no clue how genetics will mesh with regards to temperament. Which may not present issues until the dog matures, or is put in an odd situation. I drag Shadow everywhere. People comment on what a great dog she is. Put her in inexperienced hands out in public and see what nightmare you get.
Liver pups do randomly appear and I am not suggesting that they are lesser dogs, but reputable breeders are not using them as breeding stock.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Carol Kadia said:


> I'm new to the forum and totally new to "dog speak".
> 
> Could someone please clarify what is meant by " liver". Does it have to do with coloring or does it have to do with the body organ?
> 
> ...



Liver is created by a "dilute" gene. It's washes out the black and makes is a brown color. A double dilute will create a blue. Both instances cause light colored eyes and light leathers (nose and pawpads) which make them not of the standard. The genes are recessive so both parents must carry them in order to pass them on to the pups.


These puppies can be born to perfectly reputable breeders but reputable breeders don't purposely breed them or for them. My breeder had a litter produce one. He does French Ring and is amazing. But is out of standard so will not be bred.

Basic Genetics of Chocolate (Liver) Coloration in the Canine. | SIRIUS DOG


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LRP said:


> Both our dogs were BYB and both of them came from well loved homes with healthy parents on site. They did not have papers but they were well cared for. I am actually fixing our female tomorrow because we do not want to take any chance of them breeding. We don't encourage it... but we will love these dogs and care for them because they are here, regardless of how they got here, they are our family and we will love them for however long we are blessed to have them.
> 
> I get what you are saying, I would never want anyone to breed dogs that will not be healthy - but if a liver is already here and I had a chance to own one, I would - just no breeding


The thing is, there is no law against breeding, and there shouldn't be. We do not put politicians in office for their knowledge of dog-breed-breeding issues, nor should we. 

What drives puppy-breeding is where buyers put their money. If buyers want to discourage irresponsible breeding, than buying a liver, because it already exists would be exactly what you would want to avoid. 

When you buy a puppy from a pet store, you are condoning puppy mills. Because no breeder who cares about their puppies is going to let some high school kid who doesn't know diddly squat, sell them to the first person with enough credit open on the credit card. A breeder cannot care about their puppies and send them to a pet store to be sold. The puppies at pet stores, though they may be ill, and they may develop behavior problems or have poor temperament -- they are NOT the reason you don't want to buy from there. You do not want to buy from there because the sire and the dam are condemned to live in horrendous conditions with people who do not care about them at all. THAT is why we do not buy from pet stores. 

Back to the liver color. To get the liver color, someone had to breed livers on both sides of your puppy's history. Breeding off-colors is a problem because people who are trying to produce a color because it is odd, rare, stunning, they are generally over looking other things to get that color dog. Liver is a dilute. Which means, it is not just a brown dog. If it was, then it would have a black nose. Having a black nose is also required in the standard. When it has a black nose, the pigment around the eyes and paw pads are also black. This dog has these lightened to a brownish color. 

A blue will have a greyish nose and lighter color around the eyes and paw pads. These are dilutes. They are not correct. When someone is is breeding specifically to ignore the standard, breeding conformation faults specifically to get those faults, then you have someone who doesn't care about what the breed is supposed to be. The standard tells you temperament, structure, coat type and color, size, etc. 

If I have a dog that is a liver that I just have to breed, of course you look at the whole dog, the structure is perfect, the temperament excellent, the health awesome at 2-6 years old, which doesn't say a whole lot. Now. if the dog is a superstar, and I just have to breed it, I would have it to breed it to a dog that has excellent pigment and hope that breeding a dilute to that dog with excellent pigment will not effect the puppies pigment too much. No livers should result because who I would breed the dog too would have no liver it is background. That isn't what is happening if someone is breeding for the liver. They are going to ignore structural issues, coat issues, temperament issues, and even health issues to get that liver color. Actually, it was so bad that they originally thought that the liver color was linked to a fatal gene. And that is very possible. The liver could be linked to hemophilia or other stuff that causes a lessening of the lifespan. But because people ooh and ah about a color they do not generally see in German Shepherds, scoundrels will breed indiscriminately to produce this color. 

It is all about where you want your money to go. We, breed lovers, determine what kind of breeders are out there by not buying at pet stores, by being very careful if we purchase over the internet, by buying from people who show/title or work their dogs, by buying from folks who do not breed dogs with disqualifying faults. The nose not predominantly black is a disqualifying fault. It is perfectly legal to breed the dog. From a breeding standpoint is not ethical to breed the dog.


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