# Calcium for ears standing? Where did this myth come from?



## ImJaxon

I have to ask the question here. I actually posted in a yogurt thread too. But to get more exposure and start a topic, I'm going to ask it here.

Why do people think that calcium is what the ears need?

I had a very long discussion with our vet who was laughing his behind off that people want to give dogs calcium to make ears stand.

The ears are grown with cartilage. The vet told me definitively that calcium will do jack to make a dogs ears stand. I mean, I get that calcium is for bone growth and the teeth and jaws are supported by calcium, but for ears standing he said nothing makes them stand but genetics. He said that chewing things could help as it would stimulate the region and promote circulation and nutrient delivery, but other than that it's largely genetics to whether they will stand or not.

If anything you'd want to give them Dasoquin or something. Glucosamine and chondrodin are the only things that would have ANY affect whatsoever on ears, as it's cartilage. But even even told me that those supplements would not be extremely effective.

This came from our Vet who sees tons and tons of show dogs, and is one of the best in our region. 

Can someone explain where this calcium thing comes from?

Thanks


----------



## Mary Beth

I wouldn't know where the idea started but it is a good thing you checked with your vet before buying another supplement.


----------



## carmspack

there are many other ingredients of food that assist all ligament and cartilage integrity.


----------



## ImJaxon

Just FYI folks:

I know that there is a lot of information on the Internet and that lot's of that information travels from site to site to site until it becomes "Internet law".

I'm not someone who wants to be right. I'm just a curious type, and for me I'd rather dig for the facts or consult a professional than worry myself based on what I read on the Internet (which I have done, and maddened myself on multiple subjects over the years). LOL.

So with that said, I don't want to be right, or show everyone they're wrong. I just like information.

For anyone who's interested here's a Wiki article on how cartilage is developed:

Chondrogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I agree with Carmen as well. Quality food is an excellent baseline for good puppy growth.


----------



## GusGus

carmspack said:


> there are many other ingredients of food that assist all ligament and cartilage integrity.


So, does calcium actually help? I asked what to help my Dobes ears stand and I got a couple of calcium answers and I also read on DobermanTalk that calcium is good for that as well?


----------



## ImJaxon

Hey Gus, 

Based on my conversation with our vet, who is also a family friend, what I took most from the conversation was this. Calcium will help to support the growth of the bones and jaws and teeth, which are the foundation that the ears sit on. But as far as helping with the ear itself, 100% myth. 

He couldn't argue that a strong base for the ears to sit on was a detriment. But he was happy to confirm that from a physiological standpoint calcium does absolutely 0 to help ears stand.

Hope this helps 

If it's worth anything to anyone, we got Jaxon a supplement of Dasoquin, which is just glucosamine and chondrotin. 

Since he likes yogurt, we give him a bit of it just because he likes it, and for no other reason than his little jaws and teeth are still growing.


----------



## carmspack

NO .
GSD in the first place are genetically selected to have erect ears , although some of the initial animals integrated into the uniform breed type had drop ears as in the Wurtemberger herding dogs. Dobermann if left to their natural self would have a drop ear (houndy) and a long tail . I have the pleasure to have met an awesome Swedish import male and more recently a female from the same breeder. You wouldn't want the natural drop ear of the Dobermann to stand ! no more than you would want a Bassett hound or Dachshund ear to stand. I knew an "ear artist" that would fly across the continent to crop ears .


----------



## qbchottu

For ears, give bully sticks and gelatin. Raw trachea, tendons, feet, ligaments.


----------



## ImJaxon

Agree with bully sticks. He will lay for hours and chew those darn things. Nothing that can do but something good when teething. I freeze them too.

I also blanche carrots, sweet potatoes, apples, bananas to give as frozen treats. Teething pups LOVE to eat cold things. I will even just get his water dish empty and fill it with ice cubes and let him go to town on them. You'd think you'd given him a pot of raw steak if you watched him tear up those ice cubes. So much fun to watch.


----------



## ImJaxon

Love your PACK Carmen. Nice looking dogs. Especially the Service Dog component.

I am heavily weighing pursuing CARDA certification for Jaxon.

I'm a former military police office with working dog experience, and I miss the service part of my life. 

Jaxon is a working dog, so I'm contemplating getting him into a fun, rewarding life like CARDA.


----------



## qbchottu

It is not the _chewing _that helps ears...it's the nutrients (glucosamine/chondroitin/vitamins etc) IN those items that specifically help with cartilage formation. Also keep the pup lean - fat dogs with lots of adipose tissue around the ear sets have more trouble IME...


----------



## carmspack

, give bully sticks and gelatin. Raw trachea, tendons, feet, ligaments have natural sources of chondroitin. Other valuable food sources beneficial to ligament and cartilage are greens with silica , such as non-gmo alfalfa, the queen of herbs stinging nettle (one of my friend's university prof - Master herbalists favourites for many reasons) and horse-tail aka shavegrass . Mineral rich . Most of our foods are shockingly empty of trace minerals -- Empty Harvest (book) . Natural vitamin C from a food source , COMPLEX , co-factored -- not synthetic.


----------



## ImJaxon

I can't find anything good about Stinging Nettle, except that some people's dogs were maybe killed by it and it's poisonous. Can you link to something from the professor please?

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/txgard/con0406024623672.html
All I could find.

Thanks.


----------



## carmspack

Denes Natural Pet Care - Nettles The Whole Dog Journal: Handbook of Dog and Puppy Care and Training - Nancy Kerns - Google Books

Nettle: Nutritious Allergy Ally

Natural Remedies for Dog Allergies With Tips From the Experts | Suite101

too many to list


----------



## GusGus

Oh this says calcium..I meant vitamin c. Hahaha. Oops.


----------



## carmspack

adding MSM -- good in combination with glucosamine, chondroition and collagen (french type 11)


----------



## ImJaxon

His ear is still not up at 5 months old. He's 20 weeks now. His 5 calendar month mark isn't until March 10th, so I still may be premature with concern here.










We are literally doing everything. The only thing I cannot avoid is leaving him crated overnight, and during the day for 3.5-4 hour blocks between the time we leave in the mornings until we come at lunch for an hour to play ball, and then back in the crate until 530pm when I get home. If this crate causes the ears to not go up, I will lose my mind.

Here's the crate. He's in trouble and in jail for five minutes for chewing on my shoes. LOL.










We're giving him:

Dasoquin
Tons of bully sticks
Marrow bones raw frozen, because they help with the pain of the teething.
Frozen apples
Frozen blanched carrots
Frozen blanched sweet potatoes
Frozen bananas
Royal Canin German Shepherd Puppy Formula for food.
Here and there mixing in some non fat greek yogurt into the food. Small amounts.
We leave on classical music on the TV all day so he hears tones up and down and can exercise the ear muscles. 
We play lots of tug of war, but not in a violent way to get his jaw muscles strong.
We massage the bases of the ears. God we're paranoid about this.

No matter what we're doing the **** left ear still just flops over. The base is SUPER strong. the dog chews literally all day long and all night on something or another.

I hope it's true that big dogs take longer to come up. People have told us he will be at least 110 or 115 or so, so who knows.

He's still teething, but the left ear just never shows any interest in coming up. 

Uggh. Paranoid.


----------



## marshies

5 months is young.
My puppy had erect ears as a youngster, but at some point, her crate did cause the tips to flip. 

I would switch to a bigger crate if this were my dog, and I had the resources.


----------



## carmspack

make sure the "treats" you are giving are not crowding real nutrition , particularly a good quality clean protein . I don't like Royal Canin - ingredients? I tried several Royal Canin web sites to review the ingredients -- maybe I missed it , but I could not find ingrediencts on any of their sites - just advice on how much to feed . Did find this elsewhere Dog Food Reviews - Royal Canin Maxi Large Breed Puppy 32 - Powered by ReviewPost
that's one boat load of rice , more rice, corn gluten , controversial beet pulp , sodium silico aluminate which is an anti-caking agent (I believe it is the substance in those little packets you may get in a powdered product ) anyhow lab results with rats showed renal / kidney problems/failure, potassium chloride (substitute salt among other more sinister things) and more salt -- the vitamin E , is synthetic dl-tocopherol acetate NOT d-tocopherol , which are isolates and not complete and complex E . "l-alpha tocopherol is a byproduct of a petrochemical dependent manufacturing process and may have adverse endocrine-disrupting activities, despite its molecular/chemical similarity to the natural isomer known as D-alpha tocopherol

Endocrine disrupting abilities -- oh yeah ! 

compare Orijen large puppy "








"*INGREDIENTS*Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, sweet potato, peas, fresh boneless turkey*, chicken fat, (preserved with mixed tocopherols), fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish* fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, fresh boneless herring*, organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium. * 

* DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen. 


*OUR INGREDIENT PHILOSOPHY | FRESH AND REGIONAL*

We believe dog lovers want to know where the ingredients in their puppy's food come from. For this reason we don't buy the inexpensive, bulk commodity ingredients found in conventional puppy foods. 
Instead, we use ingredients that are sustainably raised within our region by people we know and trust, approved ' fit for human consumption,' and then delivered to our door FRESH.
And as puppies of all breeds and sizes are carnivores — evolved to thrive on a varied diet rich in meats, with smaller amounts of fruits, vegetables and grasses — ORIJEN PUPPY features a Biologically Appropriate (80.20.0) ingredient ratio of 80% meat, 20% fruit and vegetables, and 0% grain — all slow-cooked at low temperatures to retain their natural goodness.
*RICH IN MEAT (80%)*

All puppies are adapted for a diet rich and diverse in meat proteins — not grains and plant proteins. With 80% of poultry, eggs, meat and fish, ORIJEN PUPPY LARGE BREED features high ratios of meat and protein to mirror the natural puppy diet.
*A RICH VARIETY OF FRESH MEATS (6)*

The natural puppy diet is seasonal and diverse, so ORIJEN features 6 fresh meats, including free-run chicken and turkey, chicken liver, and whole eggs, and a superb selection of wild-caught fish — all delivered fresh each day! 
NO DRY PUPPY FOOD ON EARTH MATCHES THE QUALITY AND QUANTITY OF ORIJEN'S FRESH MEAT INGREDIENTS. 
*FRUITS and VEGETABLES (20%)*

In place of high-glycemic grains such as corn, wheat or white rice, ORIJEN PUPPY LARGE BREED features a full complement of regional fruits and vegetables. While providing a limited amount of carbohydrates, fruits and vegetables provide 

important vitamins, minerals and protector nutrients in a natural and bioavailable form.


not from a petrochemical lab made synthetic .

I don't see anything that would indicate your dog would be 110 to 115 unless fed to obesity , but not a naturally body type or size. He looks like he could have some added muscle development. Better nutrition may be the ticket (for many things in the long run) -- his ear wouldn't worry me , the base is strong .


----------



## selzer

Where does it come from? It comes from the puppies whose ears are up and then when they are teething, they go down. They are doing all sorts of chewing during teething. And the teething is sucking what? yeah calcium out of the nutrient mixture. So people want to boost calcium for dogs who are having ears going every which way during teething. 

The thing is MOST puppy foods are loaded down with calcium, too much usually. We generally suggest puppies not even be given puppy food, just wean them onto adult food. Let the vets blanch at that. In the old days there was no puppy food. There was dog food and it was sufficient for dogs that were baby-puppies to dogs that were seniors. If the dogs were fat, feed less of it. 

But now we have food for puppies, and food for seniors, and food for overweight dogs, and food for active dogs, and food for specific breeds, and foods for specific breeds at specific stages. I believe it is all marketing baloney. Yes, they decided that puppies need more what? calcium, than adult dogs and pumped puppy food full of calcium. And it became the rage. Only problem is that years later we realized that excesses of calcium during the puppy stage can cause issues, joint issues down the road. And perhaps the deal is not so much the calcium as the inbalance of calcium and phosphorus. So the marketeers hacked out the excess calcium and reduced the calories and called the food large-breed puppy food, and told you to feed way too much of it. 

The answer of course, is natural. Raw meaty bones, provided during the wonky ear stage will help the ears. Whether it helps, or if we think it helps because after a time the teeth are pretty much in and not taking up as much of the nutrients, who knows? The dogs love the meaty bones and it keeps them content and not eating our shoes which don't taste quite as good. Calcium and Phosphorus are balanced in raw meat with bones.


----------



## carmspack

beef cartilage , new product available at Country Lane Pet Resort's raw food boutique -- I know you are not within the range but at least you know what to give as a food that will be helpful.


​　
*NEW Beef Cartilage: 
*A flexible, chewy alternative 
to rawhides. Cartilage has been shown to contain collagen, elastin, glycosamine, chondroitin sulfate, keratin sulfate and hyaluronic acid and glucosamine sulfate


----------



## ImJaxon

carmspack said:


> make sure the "treats" you are giving are not crowding real nutrition , particularly a good quality clean protein . I don't like Royal Canin - ingredients? I tried several Royal Canin web sites to review the ingredients -- maybe I missed it , but I could not find ingrediencts on any of their sites - just advice on how much to feed . Did find this elsewhere Dog Food Reviews - Royal Canin Maxi Large Breed Puppy 32 - Powered by ReviewPost
> that's one boat load of rice , more rice, corn gluten , controversial beet pulp , sodium silico aluminate which is an anti-caking agent (I believe it is the substance in those little packets you may get in a powdered product ) anyhow lab results with rats showed renal / kidney problems/failure, potassium chloride (substitute salt among other more sinister things) and more salt -- the vitamin E , is synthetic dl-tocopherol acetate NOT d-tocopherol , which are isolates and not complete and complex E . "l-alpha tocopherol is a byproduct of a petrochemical dependent manufacturing process and may have adverse endocrine-disrupting activities, despite its molecular/chemical similarity to the natural isomer known as D-alpha tocopherol
> 
> Endocrine disrupting abilities -- oh yeah !
> 
> compare Orijen large puppy "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "*INGREDIENTS*Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, sweet potato, peas, fresh boneless turkey*, chicken fat, (preserved with mixed tocopherols), fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish* fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, fresh boneless herring*, organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium. *
> 
> * DELIVERED FRESH, preservative-free and never frozen.
> 
> 
> *OUR INGREDIENT PHILOSOPHY | FRESH AND REGIONAL*
> 
> We believe dog lovers want to know where the ingredients in their puppy's food come from. For this reason we don't buy the inexpensive, bulk commodity ingredients found in conventional puppy foods.
> Instead, we use ingredients that are sustainably raised within our region by people we know and trust, approved ' fit for human consumption,' and then delivered to our door FRESH.
> And as puppies of all breeds and sizes are carnivores — evolved to thrive on a varied diet rich in meats, with smaller amounts of fruits, vegetables and grasses — ORIJEN PUPPY features a Biologically Appropriate (80.20.0) ingredient ratio of 80% meat, 20% fruit and vegetables, and 0% grain — all slow-cooked at low temperatures to retain their natural goodness.
> *RICH IN MEAT (80%)*
> 
> All puppies are adapted for a diet rich and diverse in meat proteins — not grains and plant proteins. With 80% of poultry, eggs, meat and fish, ORIJEN PUPPY LARGE BREED features high ratios of meat and protein to mirror the natural puppy diet.
> *A RICH VARIETY OF FRESH MEATS (6)*
> 
> The natural puppy diet is seasonal and diverse, so ORIJEN features 6 fresh meats, including free-run chicken and turkey, chicken liver, and whole eggs, and a superb selection of wild-caught fish — all delivered fresh each day!
> NO DRY PUPPY FOOD ON EARTH MATCHES THE QUALITY AND QUANTITY OF ORIJEN'S FRESH MEAT INGREDIENTS.
> *FRUITS and VEGETABLES (20%)*
> 
> In place of high-glycemic grains such as corn, wheat or white rice, ORIJEN PUPPY LARGE BREED features a full complement of regional fruits and vegetables. While providing a limited amount of carbohydrates, fruits and vegetables provide
> 
> important vitamins, minerals and protector nutrients in a natural and bioavailable form.
> 
> 
> not from a petrochemical lab made synthetic .
> 
> I don't see anything that would indicate your dog would be 110 to 115 unless fed to obesity , but not a naturally body type or size. He looks like he could have some added muscle development. Better nutrition may be the ticket (for many things in the long run) -- his ear wouldn't worry me , the base is strong .



That review is from a different RC puppy food. Mine is different. Let me see if I can find the images and ingredients. 



selzer said:


> Where does it come from? It comes from the puppies whose ears are up and then when they are teething, they go down. They are doing all sorts of chewing during teething. And the teething is sucking what? yeah calcium out of the nutrient mixture. So people want to boost calcium for dogs who are having ears going every which way during teething.
> 
> The thing is MOST puppy foods are loaded down with calcium, too much usually. We generally suggest puppies not even be given puppy food, just wean them onto adult food. Let the vets blanch at that. In the old days there was no puppy food. There was dog food and it was sufficient for dogs that were baby-puppies to dogs that were seniors. If the dogs were fat, feed less of it.
> 
> But now we have food for puppies, and food for seniors, and food for overweight dogs, and food for active dogs, and food for specific breeds, and foods for specific breeds at specific stages. I believe it is all marketing baloney. Yes, they decided that puppies need more what? calcium, than adult dogs and pumped puppy food full of calcium. And it became the rage. Only problem is that years later we realized that excesses of calcium during the puppy stage can cause issues, joint issues down the road. And perhaps the deal is not so much the calcium as the inbalance of calcium and phosphorus. So the marketeers hacked out the excess calcium and reduced the calories and called the food large-breed puppy food, and told you to feed way too much of it.
> 
> The answer of course, is natural. Raw meaty bones, provided during the wonky ear stage will help the ears. Whether it helps, or if we think it helps because after a time the teeth are pretty much in and not taking up as much of the nutrients, who knows? The dogs love the meaty bones and it keeps them content and not eating our shoes which don't taste quite as good. Calcium and Phosphorus are balanced in raw meat with bones.


Post of the year. Yes, I agree the marketing in animal food products is ridiculous. Just awful.

Thankfully there are places like this board.


----------



## m0e321

hey guys,
I have a 14 month male gsd (originally from Germany)..and has one ear dropped while other is half down. I was wondering, I do give him glucosamine 500 mg with chrodtin, vitamin c etc with 2 tablets of calcium daily. but its been a week and nothing? should I increase the dosage of the glucosamine to 2-3 tabs?
thanks


----------

