# Sellers remorse - help!!



## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hello all. So I was contacted last night and this morning from Harley's previous owners. Long story short the wife wants her back and all that jazz. Part of me does not feel comfortable giving her back. Harley is not trained, all her canines are terribly broken and she is underweight. It is my understanding that the dog was always pushed to the side and neglected as they have 4 other dogs. They gave the dog to me for free with the cage as well. What am I supposed to do? What would you do? I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

She was purchased for a friend who has already left the country LOL.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Before anything else, get that dog to a veterinarian and have her tested for EPI and other health conditions. IMO, that dog IS skin and bones and it looks like there is something going on there besides or in addition to a lack of food.

You might want to put a call in to your local animal control and explain the situation to them. They can best help you with your local laws. 

Do not give that starving dog back to these people.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Honestly, doesn't sound like a very tough decision. Stuck between a rock and a hard place? Why would you even consider it given the condition of the dog when they gave it to you. Sorry for being so strong, I just don't really understand the purpose of this thread.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

If you care about this dog.... then NO they wouldn't get her back if I was in your shoes.. based on the condition you say she's in.... why would you think she'd be any better off there now ??...regardless of what they may try to convince you of as far as things being better for her this go around.....the next time life hands them the least tiny little lemon they'll be ready to get rid of her again....next time she may end up in a much worse situation....


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

I second what MineAreWorkingline said. Definitely contact your local animal control and tell them what's going on. Also print hard copies of any communication you had with the previous owners i.e. emails and texts. And get her into your vet ASAP if you haven't already.



At this point because she was given to you free of charge I'm assuming that you didn't get a "bill of sale"? I would be concerned with them trying to say that she was "stolen" and reporting it to the police.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It's all about legality. Ethically, yes, you should keep the dog. Legally, you don't have any ground to stand on if you don't have a signed owner-surrender contract. If she was given for free the 'wife' could charge you with theft and claim she doesn't know about the dog being given away, as dogs are considered 'property' according to the law.
I once posted this earlier when a AC officer told me that if you have someone else's dog in your possession without the owner's consent, you can/will be charged with theft by the legal owner. This also goes for found dogs. That's why you always need a signed surrender contract, stating the the owner of the dog willingly surrenders 'said dog' (description, breed, age, color etc) and won't have the rights to reclaim the dog after signing of the contract. 
And...if you find a dog, in order to legally protect yourself, you have to bring it to a shelter and ask for the first right of refusal if you want to keep that dog if its owner is not re-located within a certain amount of days (but probably will be neutered/spayed). Or, according to our AC, you post this found dog at least 3 different ways so the public can take notice like Facebook, posters, ad in the local paper, reporting it to AC etc. In that case the stray time is 30 days before you can clam the dog as yours (in our county).
After that register the dog for a licence, vet clinic etc. to get your name on its paperwork asap.
Good luck, I hope the dog can stay with you.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Do you have an advertisement indicating that they were rehoming this dog? Did you get a receipt? Transfer of ownership? Anything in writing?
The answers to these questions may be relevant depending on where you live. Any text messages, or phone records may also be useful. 
I would not be handing her back, but this is one of the reasons that I get dogs to a vet the instant they are in my possession. It documents condition and proves when I got the dog.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

All good suggestions. Personally, I would fight this and not return the dog.

If I were in your place I would get the dog to the vet as soon as possible. Be sure to get wormer and blood tests, and flea and tick and heartworm preventative while you are there. She will need those anyway.

If these people insist they want their dog back, tell them she goes no where until they pay for everything you have spent on the dog while she was in your care. Add up everything, food, toys, treats, collar, leash, whatever. Tell them the dog will go no where until you are paid in full and in cash. I suspect that would back them off fairly quickly.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm going to suggest that saying "No" will end it. Try that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

middleofnowhere said:


> I'm going to suggest that saying "No" will end it. Try that.


Contact A/C, tell them what is going on, and don't worry too much about being accused of theft. You need A/C on your side to advise the previous owner that if they choose to pursue the matter, they most likely will be facing neglect and abuse charges as well as the removal of the dog by A/C if she refuses to back down.

Like someone else said, get screenshots of any communication done via cell phone. If there was an ad placed, get a copy. CYA


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

That would be a big fat nope for me. If she wanted her, she shouldn't have given her away. Are these friends of yours? Is there any relationship you want to maintain with them?

As long as you have documentation (emails or texts) of the "transaction", she's yours. Take her to a vet, get a dog license and establish ownership.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Many of you have given solid advice and opinions that I was worried about. My thoughts exactly about not having any “legal documentation” that says the dog was properly transferred. I am worried because the dog does have no training and she is underweight. I did tell the husband where to shove it (town PD or small claims court) and the wife contacted me this morning. In an attempt to get more information and understanding I am conversing with her. She says two of their vets said the weight was nothing to worry about and that she just needed to switch food. The wife assumed it was also the high energy that caused no weight gain. The reason I am stuck is because I have compassion for both the dog and the owner because I put myself in their shoes. She may not have been well informed etc etc. I also want what Is best for the dog. I’ve gotten mixed stories about this family. One side is that the dog was neglected and disfavored by the family, the other side of that is the family adores shepherds and would never neglect and of their dogs and that they are going through a lot of family crisis (sick family members, husband needs surgery).


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## saintbob (Jul 14, 2018)

If the dog has bonded with you, then no.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

They have stated that they would “compensate” for the inconvenience and any expenses. So that won’t scare them off. No has not scared them off either.


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

Have compassion or not. Either way think long on your decision because chances are if you give her back you ability to help her is likely over. Have you tried calling their vet to see what they have to say about the dogs?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Just say no and break off communication. I'm stereotyping, by these "sellers" don't seem to have the resources or the brain power to form a litigation. Gather your docs though and let sleeping dogs lie.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Normally, I'm all for dogs reuniting with their owners, but not in this case. I've got no compassion for the owners because the dog you got "is not trained, all her canines are terribly broken and she is underweight." Don't feel bad about it. If you got a healthy dog, then I would consider returning it. "It is my understanding that the dog was always pushed to the side and neglected as they have 4 other dogs." And, " they are going through a lot of family crisis (sick family members, husband needs surgery.)" These 3 quotes by you alone should be a big fat NO.

My suggestion is to do what everyone else above says. Talk to your local animal control and explain the situation. Have it all documented. Save all emails and text conversations between you and the previous owners. If possible, record future phone calls with them.

Another thing...I don't think you need to be worried about being charged with theft. *They gave you the dog's crate too!* I don't know but I think that would be a bold move to go into someone's home (with 5 dogs roaming around) and steal one dog AND the crate. How do you do that? I can understand taking a dog from the backyard...reaching over the fence and picking the dog up and running off. (There are stories I've heard of that happening.) But then to come back to the location and walk into the house and take a crate too?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, they can always say they never gave OP any crate.

This is a messy situation, best of luck to you.


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## January (Sep 15, 2019)

I don’t think I would. It sounds like they rehomed her knowing they couldn’t care for her in the way they should, and then the wife is having a hard time emotionally letting go. I personally would keep record of all communication including your posts on this forum, and just tell them no, you and Harley are bonded now. Then, if things progress further cross that bridge. They may just move on, too.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

If it were me, I would pay a couple of hundred bucks to a local lawyer to write them a letter on his or her letterhead setting forth your claim of ownership and demanding that these people cease contacting you -- and directing that all future contact must be through the lawyer instead. Provide the lawyer with all documentation you have (voicemails, texts, notes you made after phone calls, vet records, advertisements they placed, etc.).


By the way, this is a jaded rescuer perspective here: I believe that people who dump dogs during times of family stress (whether to a stranger found through an ad or shelter) and then cry crocodile tears about how much they loved that dog will *definitely* be predisposed to dump some other dog someday. I've regretted it every time I've been sucked in by a sad story by an adoption applicant about "that was one awful time in our lives, and we'll never give up a dog again"--they ALWAYS are the ones who call me two or three years later to give up the dog they adopted. ALWAYS. Most of us here the type of owners who would have to be dead before you'd pry our dogs out of hands; we work through stress, financial problems, housing problems, family problems, and somehow dogs are our one constant in life. Other people view dogs as a stressor to get rid of when times are hard. This dog deserves to be in a home that won't get rid of it when hard times hit.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

You still have not explained how you came across this dog to start with, and if there is ANY documentation. That may be all you need.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

So I have decided to go with my gut and not give the dog back. I do think the family did not treat the dog how she should be and it is just as stated before bound to happen again. A friend told me she knew of a family that’s been trying to get rid of the dog for about a year and a half. In March I wasn’t in the position but she brought it up again this month and I’m in a better place and am in a much better financial place so I met with the dog and brought her home with me. I do have the text messaging documented. The woman backed out two hours prior to the meet and then we talked some more and we were on for the meeting. Met with and saw the condition of Harley and she went home with me. I will be going straight to the vet tomorrow as well as registering the dog. I spoke to their vet who hasn’t seen Harley in two and a half years and she said that she’s long overdue for shots and they did recommend blood work for the weight issue but they never went back.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My friend gave me a sick, skinny, traumatized dog while she was supposed to be getting some things straightened out. She asked for her back but had not changed her situation where the dog would be ok. The dog was not safe or healthy with her. I said no. We have never spoken again. I don't regret it. The dog needed me. There was no one else in a position to stick up for or help that dog at that moment.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Possession is 9/10th of the law. She can sue you over, but she has to prove she owned. Is the dog tattooed or micro chipped?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Back up your communication, even though hopefully you'll never need it. 

Screenshots of texts & call history should be saved to a cloud account or other backup, and photos. Smartphones embed a lot of data in images, including timestamp/location, depending on what options you have turned on. If your phone falls in the bathtub, you don't want to lose the whole trail of communication and history _just in case_ you need it to support an argument down the road. Hopefully it's never needed, but better to have a nice neat file of all your info instead of scrambling to remember who-said-what-and-when. 

I also second Magwart's suggestion, to help put this firmly to rest.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

GatorBytes said:


> Possession is 9/10th of the law. She can sue you over, but she has to prove she owned. Is the dog tattooed or micro chipped?


I was going to suggest OP microchip her, too. Not a chance I'd give that dog back. There's no way they'd win a legal argument unless you are not being straight about how you got her, and I believe you are telling the truth. 

She's yours, enjoy her and tell them to contact your lawyer with any further correspondence, you do not want further contact from them. That might fix them.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you get an estimate for dental care that might scare them off.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GatorBytes said:


> Possession is 9/10th of the law. She can sue you over, but she has to prove she owned. Is the dog tattooed or micro chipped?





cvamoca said:


> I was going to suggest OP microchip her, too. Not a chance I'd give that dog back. There's no way they'd win a legal argument unless you are not being straight about how you got her, and I believe you are telling the truth.
> 
> She's yours, enjoy her and tell them to contact your lawyer with any further correspondence, you do not want further contact from them. That might fix them.


I would not give the dog back either, but we do live in Canada were folks are a bit less sue happy, dogs hold status slightly above property and folks don't generally wander about with guns. Lol.


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## January (Sep 15, 2019)

Sounds like you’ve made the best decision for her. From what you’ve said, they haven’t been entirely forthcoming about the vets perspective on her low weight, nor did they follow through with their recommendations. 5 GSDs is a lot for people to care for!


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Quick update. We have a vet appointment scheduled with a trusted vet who is good with shepherds AND dogs who are questionable towards people. Harley is definitely bonded to me and I am happy with this decision. She needs all shots so we’ll do that and get her microchipped, get the bloodwork drawn and go from there with that. We will also have the vet look at her teeth to give us a clue on how to go forward (dental work and how to help at home). She will be getting registered right after as in NY (maybe all states) you need proof of rabies. Will continue to update. As for the previous owners I’ll be letting them know to contact my lawyer with any further questions.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would do only rabies, if she is overdue.
Given the fact that you don’t know what health issues she has, please don’t inject her with a bunch of horrible things all at once that she might not need. If you can afford it, titer her to see what her immunity is for those illnesses.

Either way, if she needs the rabies shot because of the law, I would do just that and then wait at least a few weeks until you give her more shots.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

NO!

I wouldn't worry about the legal arguments provided here, either. 

If the previous owners claim that the dog was "stolen" or "lost", what remedies did they attempt? 

Did they put listings in a newspaper? Did they put signs and phone numbers on bulletin boards and telephone poles? Did they notify neighbors? Will they claim that you stole the cage, too? 

Did you have a friend or was there any other person (third party) who watched an amicable, "free" transfer of the dog from them to you. If so, then an implied contract was witnessed and a written contract would not be necessary.

You are so far away from legal hassles (and losing this case), it's not worth consideration.

Regardless, tell them NO and take care of Harley.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WIBackpacker said:


> Back up your communication, even though hopefully you'll never need it.
> 
> Screenshots of texts & call history should be saved to a cloud account or other backup, and photos. Smartphones embed a lot of data in images, including timestamp/location, depending on what options you have turned on. If your phone falls in the bathtub, you don't want to lose the whole trail of communication and history _just in case_ you need it to support an argument down the road. Hopefully it's never needed, but better to have a nice neat file of all your info instead of scrambling to remember who-said-what-and-when.
> 
> I also second Magwart's suggestion, to help put this firmly to rest.


Yep and actually I had a signed agreement with my friend about that dog, so there was no chance of anything going south if things went south. I strongly suspected it was going to play out like it did so I prepared for it and made sure I had my ducks in a row so I could protect the dog. I also saved communications with her where she freely disclosed how unsafe and unhealthy her situation was. 

She had no recourse. I hate that I hurt my friend, but I felt I had no choice for the sake of the dog.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Just to be on the safe side I would recommend that you take a lot of pictures of Harley from all angles including her teeth to show that she was not in a good healthy condition when you took ownership of her. If the previous owners do try to be nasty you will have photographic proof of the poor condition of the dog that shows neglect/poor care by the previous owner. 
Hope they decide to just back off and let Harley move on with a better life.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

Can you get them to confirm they gave you the dog? But in a way that doesn’t give it away? Such as, “but you gave me the dog.. why do you want it back?” That way you can have a record of them agreeing they did give it to you?


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## CatMan900 (May 24, 2018)

I’d kindly tell them no and if they persist then block their number. I know it’s harsh but honestly they chose to rehome their dog. It’s not your fault. It’s hard enough on the dog as it is and fighting over it won’t solve anything so I’d just block them and bond with my new dog if I was in your shoes


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## CatMan900 (May 24, 2018)

I also wouldn’t worry about them legally saying you stole the dog because they gave you the crate too. Like What, did you break in and steal their crate with the dog still in it ? Lol


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

mburitica181 said:


> Quick update. We have a vet appointment scheduled with a trusted vet who is good with shepherds AND dogs who are questionable towards people. Harley is definitely bonded to me and I am happy with this decision. She needs all shots so we’ll do that and get her microchipped, get the bloodwork drawn and go from there with that. We will also have the vet look at her teeth to give us a clue on how to go forward (dental work and how to help at home). She will be getting registered right after as in NY (maybe all states) you need proof of rabies. Will continue to update. As for the previous owners I’ll be letting them know to contact my lawyer with any further questions.


Great! I agree with others, tell these people NO, keep Harley and stop all communication with them. Block their phone number if you have to. End of story. The only other thing I'd suggest is that you make sure to give the vet a quick summary of what's happening and ask him/her to prepare a medical report of the Harley's condition on her first visit to the clinic. Explain that you don't know what will happen (other than that you plan to keep her) but that you'd like some medical backup (via the summary) describing Harley's condition when you got her. Most vets know how to write such summaries. This documentation could be useful if/when you have to go to court. Part of getting your ducks in a row --- along with many, many photos and copies of all correspondence (e.g., texts, emails) and rehoming ads. 

Good on you for taking her in. She's beautiful.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Again, I highly doubt they would take legal action. If they did and they lied their butts off about the crate or whatever, I'm guessing these people display minimal credibility. I bet THEY are missing teeth. The dog is yours, get some shots and move on. If it were me, I would say no, break off communication and enjoy your new dog. All of the legal angles they could take suggested here are a big stretch.


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

CatMan900 said:


> I also wouldn’t worry about them legally saying you stole the dog because they gave you the crate too. Like What, did you break in and steal their crate with the dog still in it ? Lol


Exactly what I said in an earlier post. Glad someone else saw the logic in this.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Aly said:


> Great! I agree with others, tell these people NO, keep Harley and stop all communication with them. Block their phone number if you have to. End of story. The only other thing I'd suggest is that you make sure to give the vet a quick summary of what's happening and ask him/her to prepare a medical report of the Harley's condition on her first visit to the clinic. Explain that you don't know what will happen (other than that you plan to keep her) but that you'd like some medical backup (via the summary) describing Harley's condition when you got her. Most vets know how to write such summaries. This documentation could be useful if/when you have to go to court. Part of getting your ducks in a row --- along with many, many photos and copies of all correspondence (e.g., texts, emails) and rehoming ads.
> 
> Good on you for taking her in. She's beautiful.


My vet did it routinely for dogs that I brought in. I clearly recall him threatening in one case that the dog was in such poor condition that if it was returned to it's owner HE would be reporting.
It is pretty routine and any vet should be well versed in what is needed.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Update?


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Alright so the husband and wife have steadily contacted me since Saturday, practically begging. I have blocked both of their numbers and patiently waiting for our vet. I was only planning on doing rabies and waiting for the bloodwork and going from there with the rest of the vaccines. Harley is settling in slowly but surely. I have some behavioral concerns if any one has any idea with these. She is very vocal when we are getting ready to go outside. From saying let’s go all the way to opening the door she is yapping away, howling screeching and whining and once out the door she lets out a howl and that’s all. Not sure how to correct this besides ignoring the unwanted behavior. Second I notice that if her and Ellie walk side by side she is fine and then will randomly nip below Ellie’s ear in the neck area. Ellie does not react, poor girl, she’s very calm. I don’t leave them unsupervised at all, big no no. But I give a firm no and a stomp.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

mburitica181 said:


> ...
> 
> *She is very vocal when we are getting ready to go outside. From saying let’s go all the way to opening the door she is yapping away, howling screeching and whining and once out the door she lets out a howl and that’s all. Not sure how to correct this besides ignoring the unwanted behavior. *
> 
> ...


First stop questioning yourself! If this dog was loved and properly cared for she wouldn't look this way now!

First bolded comment, train an alternate behavior. It's very difficult and weird IMHO, to even attempt to train a dog "not to do" something! I instead teach him or her what you want them to do! Teach what you want, the unwanted goes away on its own!

The second issue is sort of up to you, IME. If you intervene now, you'll probably have to forever! If you let them work it out, you'll likely never ever have to deal with it again...

So decide now. It's tough, and can include some fighting, albeit minor. If you monitor this now, but not continuously, you're just building a later problem. Trust your dog! She knows so much better than we do....

She'll tell you when she's overwhelmed. 


She'll tell you when it's all okay! 


Point is, listen, she'll tell ya...no need to guess!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I would definitely correct the nipping. If they start to fight, you will have bitches fighting, and they won’t stop wanting to kill each other. 

Don’t let the new dog harass the resident dog. Not fair to Ellie, and it will not lead to anything good. Keep Harley on a leash ‘till she behaves reliably.

The howling...The door does not open if she does this. Don’t reinforce the behavior by giving her what she wants. I would calmly close the door and ask for a sit, Open the door only when she is sitting nice and calmly. This will take a lot of repetition, But if you are consistent she will get it, eventually.

I hope those people do not know where you live. Hopefully you won’t end up with them on your doorstep.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Id also be more worried about them showing up where you live. Legally, between communications and the fact their vet said 2 years overdue, never returned for bloodwork, they would not have a case. I would probably preemptively contact AC in case THEY contact them. It is always better to gives them a heads up, tell them about the documentation of transfer and the documentation of neglect.

As for the behavior, correct the nipping for sure (bitch fights are for real and forever) and continue with the no unsupervised/unstructured time together. What is your experience/familiarity with the breed? Having a balanced trainer who works with the breed come in observe and give advice is NEVER money thrown away.

Good luck with her!


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## January (Sep 15, 2019)

I would be tempted to tell them they will be reported for harassment if this continues, but ignoring it as you’re doing hopefully will get the point across. As for the behaviours, Sunflower gave some really great tips. I’m also curious if the nipping is happening during a walk on leash or just romp in the backyard? I would leash her and have her heel on your left at all times during a walk, Ellie on your right or off leash. Any attempt to nip or fixate on Ellie and I would redirect her (treats, abrupt change direction, firm hey, quick tug on her lead). She doesn’t get free access to Ellie until this behaviour stops. If it also occurs in the yard, she is leashed as well or goes out by herself. One final thought, you say the noise starts from the “Lets go,” maybe start enforcing the idea that those words mean to sit and quietly wait. Clicker training could help to achieve that. You say words randomly, make her sit, click and treat. Don’t do it before you go outside for awhile, just randomly at all times. Eventually she’ll learn to wait for your direction on what’s coming when she hears those words.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

I would also like to add that I will be taking more pictures aside from what I have. I will also be taking the many suggestions here with getting the write up from the vet. One of her vets have sent over the paperwork to the vet already. Still trying to hunt down another vet. Here are some pictures for everyone ? outside for a potty break, playing/exercising in the tennis court and my favorite.. tired pup! Oh and of course first bath since getting here... that was a treat!


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

Getting overly excited and "acting up" on the way to the door. My advice is to say nothing (drop the let's go). Just go through the steps and redirect unwanted behaviors as needed. 

My story: When I get ready to take my dog out she is mostly calm. She gets excited when anyone in the house puts on shoes. I mostly ignore if she gets a bit hyper. If it gets too out of control I reprimand verbally and give her a command (sit, down). For the most part when I'm getting ready to take her out I have to go get her, collar her up and we go. No issues.

Now when DH is home and he is getting dressed, putting on shoes, etc she is an insane, out of control, whiny butthead. The problem is caused by DH. He tells her he is going to take her out then tells her he isn't ready yet. "I'm not dressed yet". "I've got to get dressed', "you gotta wait", "I'm not ready" yadda yadda yadda. He just talks too much and ramps her up only for her to end up pissing him off (yes I've tried to address this with DH. It's a WAR I've learn isn't worth having with him). Heck he does it to me when he is home. He'll ask me what I'm doing and I'll say talking the dog out. Next thing I know he's talking to the dog asking her if she is going to walk with momma and ramping her up. Drives me (insert expletive here) nuts. 

The point. Don't talk any more than you need to. Just do and redirect to wanted behaviors you want to see. 

She is new to you and likely is getting attention and learning new routines she has never had. Added that you stated she wasn't ever really trained just affirms she needs new guidance in what the new norm is. She'll learn. 

And yes address the nipping at Ellie. Ellie doesn't need that and it can quickly escalate to something more than you ever want to deal with. Curious what the age difference is between the two dogs?


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

In the fenced in area there’s no nipping and walking on the leash no nipping. I’m fairly experienced with GSDs. I’d say 1-10 a 6. Not as experienced as many of these pros in here that I love picking brains from. We already implement the leash around the house except for a few instances such as when they’re eating (separately) and what not. Patience patience patience is what I’m doing.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Springbrz said:


> The point. Don't talk any more than you need to. Just do and redirect to wanted behaviors you want to see.
> 
> She is new to you and likely is getting attention and learning new routines she has never had. Added that you stated she wasn't ever really trained just affirms she needs new guidance in what the new norm is. She'll learn.
> 
> And yes address the nipping at Ellie. Ellie doesn't need that and it can quickly escalate to something more than you ever want to deal with. Curious what the age difference is between the two dogs?


Good points here. You can tell all she wants really is the affection and attention. Harley is 4/4.5 and Ellie is 6.


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## CatMan900 (May 24, 2018)

Really sorry to hear you are still dealing with them. Try to ignore it and keep this a positive experience for you and your new family member! It makes me wonder why if they loved this dog soooo much as they say then WHY did they give her away in the first place


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

wolfy dog said:


> It's all about legality. Ethically, yes, you should keep the dog. Legally, you don't have any ground to stand on if you don't have a signed owner-surrender contract. If she was given for free the 'wife' could charge you with theft and claim she doesn't know about the dog being given away, as dogs are considered 'property' according to the law.
> I once posted this earlier when a AC officer told me that if you have someone else's dog in your possession without the owner's consent, you can/will be charged with theft by the legal owner. This also goes for found dogs. That's why you always need a signed surrender contract, stating the the owner of the dog willingly surrenders 'said dog' (description, breed, age, color etc) and won't have the rights to reclaim the dog after signing of the contract.
> And...if you find a dog, in order to legally protect yourself, you have to bring it to a shelter and ask for the first right of refusal if you want to keep that dog if its owner is not re-located within a certain amount of days (but probably will be neutered/spayed). Or, according to our AC, you post this found dog at least 3 different ways so the public can take notice like Facebook, posters, ad in the local paper, reporting it to AC etc. In that case the stray time is 30 days before you can clam the dog as yours (in our county).
> After that register the dog for a licence, vet clinic etc. to get your name on its paperwork asap.
> Good luck, I hope the dog can stay with you.


Under the law, a gift is a gift, with or without fur. A dog is property like any other piece of property. If you give a gift to someone, don't expect to get it back. It's over and done. Not yours anymore.

Note that your example of "charged with theft" is where the dog is in the person's possession without permission of the owner. Not the case. The previous owner gave it to this person and this person is now the new owner. 

If you want a similar example, loan your car to somebody and then call the cops when they don't bring it back at the agreed time. The cops will tell you not to give them the keys next time. They won't go looking to arrest anyone for auto theft.

As for the rest about the shelter, etc. -- completely irrelevant.

The person should keep the dog and forget it. If they keep calling about the dog, report it to the police as harassment. Case closed.

For those who really want the law, the charge (if any) would be larceny. Under the law that is: The trespassory taking and carrying away of the personal property of another with the intent to steal. 

For those unfamiliar with the law, all specific elements of that definition must be present. A "trespassory taking" is "taking without the owner's permission". If the owner gives the dog to someone, there is no "trespassory taking" and thus no need to even consider the other elements.


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## wm97 (Dec 13, 2018)

Springbrz said:


> Just to be on the safe side I would recommend that you take a lot of pictures of Harley from all angles including her teeth to show that she was not in a good healthy condition when you took ownership of her. If the previous owners do try to be nasty you will have photographic proof of the poor condition of the dog that shows neglect/poor care by the previous owner.
> Hope they decide to just back off and let Harley move on with a better life.


If the previous owners "get nasty" then call the police. People like that don't have the money for lawyers and, if they did, the lawyer would tell them to find another lawyer.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey all! Update time. So we went to the vet today and did well with the vaccine and blood draw. We were even good when the vet checked for spay scar! She is spayed and she has received the rabies vaccine. Another thing to note is that the vet (obviously) agrees she is underweight and can use a least 5 pounds but ideally 10-15 pounds. She thinks she is just a high energy fast metabolizing dog. Her recommendation is to find a high caloric dog food or a puppy dog food until she adds the weight. What is y’all opinion on this?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, since you asked>

In my experience, every veterinarian I have visited, and I have tried a few until I found one I liked, had said that my dog needs to put on weight. They are so used to seeing obese dogs that slender, normal dogs seem too thin to them.

Fast forward a few years, and the vet who x-rayed Hans said thank goodness he is so slender, it helped him tremendously, because he has crap hips and elbows.

Take a look at this picture from an older dog reference book. People didn’t used to feed their dogs with high carb kibble, and dogs were lean. Nowadays, they’re fat, just like we are.
My breeder told me that she would like for everybody who sees my dog to tell me he’s too skinny. 
These dogs have way too many hip and joint problems to have to bear extra weight. A little rib is just fine.


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## Redbeard (Oct 11, 2019)

Why add weight? Did the vet provide a good reason? If so, I would pick a healthy food and feed a little extra. If the weight comes then fine, if not, then at least you know the dog is healthy. My opinion of course.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Redbeard said:


> Why add weight? Did the vet provide a good reason? If so, I would pick a healthy food and feed a little extra. If the weight comes then fine, if not, then at least you know the dog is healthy. My opinion of course.


The dog is nearly skin and bones, why not add weight? If the dog fails to achieve a healthy weight with increased food, there are a host of health problems that can be a cause including EPI where the dog will literally starve to death regardless of quantity and quality of food eaten if not diagnosed and treated.


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## Redbeard (Oct 11, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The dog is nearly skin and bones, why not add weight? If the dog fails to achieve a healthy weight with increased food, there are a host of health problems that can be a cause including EPI where the dog will literally starve to death regardless of quantity and quality of food eaten if not diagnosed and treated.


If those are the issues with the dog then there is no question, add weight. I hope it works out!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

mburitica181 said:


> Hey all! Update time. So we went to the vet today and did well with the vaccine and blood draw. *We were even good when the vet checked for spay scar! *She is spayed and she has received the rabies vaccine. Another thing to note is that the vet (obviously) agrees she is underweight and can use a least 5 pounds but ideally 10-15 pounds. She thinks she is just a high energy fast metabolizing dog. Her recommendation is to find a high caloric dog food or a puppy dog food until she adds the weight. What is y’all opinion on this?


Funny story. So I had a foster who had been picked up running with an intact male. She had what we all, vet included, swore was a spay scar. Had her taking adoption applications, until she dropped 9 puppies on my bed. Might wish to double check that.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

mburitica181 said:


> Hey all! Update time. So we went to the vet today and did well with the vaccine and blood draw. We were even good when the vet checked for spay scar! She is spayed and she has received the rabies vaccine. Another thing to note is that the vet (obviously) agrees she is underweight and can use a least 5 pounds but ideally 10-15 pounds. She thinks *she is just a high energy fast metabolizing dog. Her recommendation is to find a high caloric dog food or a puppy dog food until she adds the weight. What is y’all opinion on this?*


I have one like this. We just stuck with Fromm but upped her intake about a half cup more a meal x2. She also gets "people" food randomly as well. She is built very solid and the amount of heat her body produces is incredible.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Funny story. So I had a foster who had been picked up running with an intact male. She had what we all, vet included, swore was a spay scar. Had her taking adoption applications, until she dropped 9 puppies on my bed. Might wish to double check that.



Shelters in the US generally tattoo the tummy or inner thigh of dogs that are spayed by them. Here they use a small green line. However, many private vets don't do it because nobody imagines their dog could end up in the shelter system. I wish it were the standard to put this tattoo on the dog at every kind of practice, as it's such a frustrating decision when you get an older dog with a "maybe" spay scar come through rescue--the only way to be sure is to have the vet open the dog up to look inside. If it's your own dog with an unknown history, you can choose wait it out and see if she goes into heat.


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Redbeard said:


> Why add weight? Did the vet provide a good reason? If so, I would pick a healthy food and feed a little extra. If the weight comes then fine, if not, then at least you know the dog is healthy. My opinion of course.


More or less just because she is so skinny that it isn’t the healthiest for the dog is my understanding. She also wants to make a ir e she can add the weight on. The basic blood panels came back okay but if so we have to do a comprehensive. Of course it’s trail and error for the time being. 



Sabis mom said:


> [
> Funny story. So I had a foster who had been picked up running with an intact male. She had what we all, vet included, swore was a spay scar. Had her taking adoption applications, until she dropped 9 puppies on my bed. Might wish to double check that.


The old vet actually called and transferred the papers! She’s spayed! I can’t believe that happened ?


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Magwart said:


> Shelters in the US generally tattoo the tummy or inner thigh of dogs that are spayed by them. Here they use a small green line. However, many private vets don't do it because nobody imagines their dog could end up in the shelter system. I wish it were the standard to put this tattoo on the dog at every kind of practice,.


I agree. I love the ones that tattoo


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

any mote ideas on the Howling whelping and whining at the door? Ignoring doesn’t work or doesn’t seem like it does. I know it’s been a short time but it seems impossible to break! I will grab leash say sit and she starts up.. I then drop the leash and walk away until she settles down. 2-3 minutes. And it starts back up. Repeat. She simmers down enough But still.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

I grab the leash at random times during the day, then put it down in random places. Sometimes I even make a belt out of it and walk around like that. That way, me having a leash doesn’t necessarily mean dog goes anywhere.
Have you tried high value treats, say, a little piece of chicken in your closed fist, putting it to her nose and luring her along with that? You can’t howl and walk and try to eat at the same time, LOL.
You’re going to have to teach “Quiet,” it’s a great command for the dog to know.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Will she hold a ball, or stuffed toy in her mouth? If you could get her to hold something, to take outside, she wouldn't be able to bark and howl.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Will she hold a ball, or stuffed toy in her mouth? If you could get her to hold something, to take outside, she wouldn't be able to bark and howl.


Oh, Hans barks perfectly well with anything in his mouth. It’s hilarious to watch:grin2::grin2:


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

I am dealing with a similar issue with my youngest. I am thinking I'll teach the quiet command and proof it under high distraction? Her high-pitched excited bark actually hurts my ears at times. Strict OB helps, but doesn't completely stop the barking.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Sunflowers said:


> Oh, Hans barks perfectly well with anything in his mouth. It’s hilarious to watch:grin2::grin2:


Hahaha!


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Sunflowers said:


> Stevenzachsmom said:
> 
> 
> > Will she hold a ball, or stuffed toy in her mouth? If you could get her to hold something, to take outside, she wouldn't be able to bark and howl.
> ...


Same with Harley! We’re teaching quiet as well. Looks like we just have to weather the storm


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Update pictures! Doing very well!


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Glad you’re doing well.
Take a moment to check this out:

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm


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## mburitica181 (Jul 22, 2015)

Sunflowers said:


> Glad you’re doing well.
> Take a moment to check this out:
> 
> http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm


Thank you for the article! ?


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