# Trainer is saying protection training is dangerous



## jzaman (Sep 3, 2013)

We have a new GSD puppy with titled champion parents. I was speaking to a national chain obedience trainer for some puppy training and I mentioned we would eventually get protection training for her. To my shock he said he would not recommend that for a family like ours with small kids saying essentially she would be ticking time bomb and could attack us. Just wondering what others thought about why he would say something so ridiculous and if anybody else has heard any others make statements like this.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I bet he doesn't think GSD's should be a family pet either?


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## AXO (Sep 25, 2013)

Your trainer is right. Having a protection trained dog is like having a loaded gun, except it can go off without pulling the trigger. It is a huge responsibility, not to mention Liability. Unless you have a lot of experience. What kind of experience do you have? 

I know I had one for 10.5 years. It is a tremendous commitment. Some dogs don't have the ability to be dual purpose. You dog has to master advanced obedience before even contemplating bite work..

This is just my $.02.


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## AXO (Sep 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I bet he doesn't think GSD's should be a family pet either?


Why do you think that.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Depends on the dog and the training, if it isn't balanced in the brain, or if the training foundation wasn't right, then the dog would be a possible liability. 

Most GSD's are naturally protective and they do carry aggression. 

Obedience is important regardless if the dog is going to be trained in bitework or not. 
The parents are titled champions in which venue?


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## halo4me (Jul 16, 2012)

I personally love GSD. Before I prégnant, my dog was super high with me all the time. Since I pregnant and we introduced new baby to home, he knows to love baby as much as he loves us! GSD does looks scary to someone but actually they're not some stupid dog, they're smart!

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## halo4me (Jul 16, 2012)

Training is always 2 way thing! People and dog, neither of them will complete training successful without another. Be faith and confidence to love your dog.

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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

AXO said:


> Your trainer is right. Having a protection trained dog is like having a loaded gun, except it can go off without pulling the trigger. It is a huge responsibility, not to mention Liability. Unless you have a lot of experience. What kind of experience do you have?
> 
> I know I had one for 10.5 years. It is a tremendous commitment. Some dogs don't have the ability to be dual purpose. You dog has to master advanced obedience before even contemplating bite work..
> 
> This is just my $.02.


What I highlighted I think is a good point... the rest, I will respectfully disagree with.

With the proper evaluation and training by a professional, I do not see protection training on the right dog as a ticking time bomb. In fact, most dogs that have been worked properly are MUCH safer than the dog that hasn't.... more control, more rules and training, and the dog has a much better understanding of what's right and wrong when it comes to biting. Being that shepherds are naturally protective, it's already running in their veins. I'd much prefer a dog that's trained to understand when it the right time and when it's not... also, a dog that absolutely knows my command is the absolutely must do. That to me is a much safer dog. When done right, it does NOT make the dog more aggressive or any less safe with kids.

However, I 100% agree with what I highlighted above. Obedience is extremely important when training a protection dog of any kind. They must be able to be under control and able to listen to their owner's commands. It is expensive, and very time consuming to work a dog properly in protection... however, the outcome and time spent working 1 on 1 with the dog is very rewarding. 

OP: With that said... if you are interested in training your pup in protection, I suggest finding a professional trainer with a good reputation that trains personal protection or find a good Schutzhund Club to help point you in the right direction and have the pup evaluated. If they have the right temperament and work ethic.... then go for it. If it makes you feel better, talk to the trainer and people at those local groups about their dogs and see how the 'fully trained' dogs interact with other people. It's not something to take lightly, but it's also not something to be afraid of. But do know it's a lot of work, and it's something you'll need to continue to keep fresh in their minds. They are never 100% done. Like people, they need refresher courses too. 

Personally, I believe trainers that say that are either incredibly uninformed, don't understand the breed or their working ability, or bias driven.

I've yet to see a protection dog here in my area, in my home, or anyone I've ever talked to with protection dogs have a bite record.... however, I know plenty of 'pet' dogs that do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, maybe this trainer has had experience with a dog taught a form of protection through a poor trainer, and possibly a dog that was not mentally a good candidate.

We can see hundreds of good specimens of a breed or people or whatever, but we will remember the bad one out of hundreds. We will remember the jerk. And we will remember the dog that isn't stable, and a liability.

I don't think protection training will make the dog more dangerous to your own children. I mean unless they choke the dog out or feed it gunpowder or something seriously stupid like that. A well-trained protection dog with a solid temperament should be LESS dangerous within a family and to strangers than an untrained dog. But, unfortunately, people often only know enough to be dangerous about a lot of things. 

With a bunch of little kids, kids' friends, etc. I would agree that unless you have the energy and commitment to make this a serious hobby, I probably would not train the dog in protection.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Training in IPO and PSA. I know my dog, he is 100% safe with all children. This little girl loves to play with Hunter's ears and kiss him on the nose. He just loves being next to her and watching her play with her toys.

TBA.. he's safe with everyone who doesn't pose a threat / threaten me. He's very friendly, never been anything but safe.


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## jzaman (Sep 3, 2013)

I do want to emphasize that we are seeking obedience training as a puppy and as a youth for her and will continue obedience her whole life. Obedience training is first and foremost, without that and full control of her I would never entertain protection training.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

I can understand your trainer's worries. Yes, it is better to introduce your puppy to these lessons as soon as you can, the risk is you can fall into wrong hands. Just make sure, that the club is a professional one, not just licenced. Professionals are interested in winning titles, semi-professionals are satistying the customer's wants (which could be far from any sports). The real part of training comes only when your puppy is over 18 months old, it's only then the game turns into work. In Schutzhund protection the obedience of your dog is the most important condition, you can read about the rules: 
Schutzhund-Schutzhund Training


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I wasn't suggesting a protection dog would not be safe with children. But I think that to do that, you have to have the time commitment to do it right, etc. That's all. My sister has a couple of second-graders, and my little sister and her husband have a 2.5 year old and almost 4 year old. 

I really don't want either to get a dog at this point, there just isn't enough hours in the day. 

Then again, some people prioritize things differently, and would have time to make that a commitment. Obedience training is enough, when your running kids everywhere. It can be done, breeders with kids bring them along to trials and help them socialize puppies, and teach them to do schutzhund. But I would call that a pretty serious hobby.


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## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

My puppy is almost 5 months old. He is in obedience class. We are going to our first schutzhund club meeting on Sunday. My understanding is when they are young, If they demonstrate the drive for it, they mostly work on obedience and maybe scent work. By the time they start bite work they would have quite a bit of obedience learned. So, they should be able to be controlled. At least that's my thinking. I could be totally off base on this. 

As far as it harming them or making them more aggressive. I think the dog will be who it's going to be. Training can only help. If the my dog is not thriving in schutzhund I will try something else for him. I will always do whats best for my dog, but he will be well trained.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Schutzhund is not personal protection training! There is bitework involved, but it is all obedience based and not the same thing as training a PP dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yeah, you start with a stable dog, and then with a lot of training, and working together, lots of field work you teach the dog to bite on command, and to out on command. The dog is a lot less likely to bite in ordinary situations where you aren't telling him to. It should only make things better. 

Take a less than stable dog, an inexperienced or unscroupulous trainer, and well, with a combination of dog that shouldn't go that route and trainer who isn't working in the dog's best interests, or simply doesn't know better, and you can have less then desirable results.

I suppose the same can be said of any training, but with bitework/protection, you want to over-ride the dog's natural inhibition to bite, and encourage that behavior, in some instances. So if it is done poorly, on can argue the possibility of consequences could be higher, than say a bad rally or agility trainer.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

No one really ever talks about the time commitment it takes to get an IPO or PP trained dog to be that safe around children. It's just like, "look at my dog, its super safe around children" PS...I've spent thousands of hours training it (but you don't have to know that).

Protection training is fun. It's cool. It's awesome to see your dog bite something. But the level of commitment that it takes is crazy. There isn't skipping training days because you wanted to watch the football game or sleep in on the weekend or go watch your kid's soccer game. It's all about the dog at that point.

And not to mention the liability...your dog makes the wrong decision and bites someone its not supposed to...like a kid's friend that just walks into the house/back yard. Say goodbye to all of your future earnings. BTW, most home insurance companies ask about your dog being bite trained or not. The point of this is...there are a lot of other things to think about when bite training your dog.

I don't know why...but for some reason, the time commitment that Schutzhund takes is like a closely guarded secret. Everyone wants you to do it...but they won't tell you it's kind of a lifestyle choice rather than a simple hobby.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I don't know why...but for some reason, the time commitment that Schutzhund takes is like a closely guarded secret. Everyone wants you to do it...but they won't tell you it's kind of a lifestyle choice rather than a simple hobby.


HOURS several times a week, and at least a full day every week (often on the weekend). Definitely a lifestyle.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> No one really ever talks about the time commitment it takes to get an IPO or PP trained dog to be that safe around children. It's just like, "look at my dog, its super safe around children" PS...I've spent thousands of hours training it (but you don't have to know that).
> 
> Protection training is fun. It's cool. It's awesome to see your dog bite something. But the level of commitment that it takes is crazy. There isn't skipping training days because you wanted to watch the football game or sleep in on the weekend or go watch your kid's soccer game. It's all about the dog at that point.
> 
> ...


And, I would think that training your first dog in this would lend itself to taking a lot more time than someone who is a veteran. A lot of us made a mess of our first GSD and didn't even do protection or schutzhund.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What kind of "protection" are we talking about? I assumed since in the SchH forum we the dog will be doing SchH training? If so, who cares what the franchise pet trainer says, what does your SchH club say? Of course that trainer wouldn't want you to do SchH since it's something they can't help you with (and charge you for).


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Normally, it is not your children who could be at risk, but any stranger, including other children, happened to come close to your kid, because young dogs like to protect, they like to scare people as well. Sometimes you would have to put a muzzle on before he starts vertually to live in anticipation of your command, always having it at the back of his head. You better consult the club instructor if your dog is suitable.


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## TrickyShepherd (Aug 15, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Schutzhund is not personal protection training! There is bitework involved, but it is all obedience based and not the same thing as training a PP dog.


The only reason I suggested to find a Schutzhund club is because most have good contacts for all sorts of other sports within the breed that are in their area. If the OP couldn't find one themselves, then that would be at least a good place to start by asking for any recommendations on good local trainers. Or some will possibly know and work with trainers like mine who do both. Not to mention, -some- dogs (with the right temperament and drives) do well starting in Schutzhund and being cross trained or switched over to PP training when they mature.... maybe Schutzhund will be a better option for the OP to take with this pup? Who knows. I think a proper evaluation will be the best thing at first, also for the OP to meet some of the dogs in both sports. That's always a great way to understand a sport and how the dogs are... makes the decision a bit easier I think.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My comment wasn't aimed at you Alyssa, just general for this discussion. Doing IPO and the bitework that it entails is not the same as the OP's 1st post quoting* "get protection training for her"*. 
Those that don't do the sport think IPO is all about protection training, when in essence it is about obedience and control. 
Biting is a small portion of what IPO is about. You can't even use the word BITE in a trial or you get dq'd!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

David Taggart said:


> they like to scare people as well. Sometimes you would have to put a muzzle on before he starts vertually to live in anticipation of your command, always having it at the back of his head.


:help:


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Id be shocked if the big box trainer can even reliably train the dog to sit, down, heel and come under distractions. How can you expect him to know about PP or schutzhund? 

As fo it making a difference with the kids. A dog that bites the children he lives with or any child most likely has nerve related issues. Bitework has nothing to do with that. 
This myth that bitework makes your dog more likely to bite some unthreatening innocent is a load of nonsense.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

This has been an interesting thread. Some good points and some nonsense.


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## Jarkko (Feb 7, 2013)

David Taggart said:


> Normally, it is not your children who could be at risk, but any stranger, including other children, happened to come close to your kid, because young dogs like to protect, they like to scare people as well.


This is the biggest problem to my understanding. And it's not always about protecting you/children, it can be about protecting the dog himself. Lot of people are scared to death about GSD's and guess what young, unsure dog thinks about that? To my experience, adult scary people are the biggest problem. They stare, shake, freeze, act like crazy.

Of course, it is my responsibility to make sure my dog is safe around. In fact, I just decided to postpone the real bite work for a while. My dog is 11 months now, but he is a bit unsure about himself and I also see this tendency to scare off people and other dogs as well. I have a lot of work to do before the sleeve work.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

jzaman said:


> We have a new GSD puppy with titled champion parents. I was speaking to a *national chain obedience trainer* for some puppy training and I mentioned we would eventually get protection training for her. To my shock he said he would not recommend that for a family like ours with small kids saying essentially she would be ticking time bomb and could attack us. Just wondering what others thought about why he would say something so ridiculous and if anybody else has heard any others make statements like this.


I'm curious to what kind or method of training this trainer uses. Some of them are not into corrections at all and are into complete positive methods of training, and therefore their general philosophy would be against something potentially violent.

That being said, our breeder wanted to do protection training with us and our dog. We felt she was naturally very protective and declined. We met another customer that did try protection training with his young adult male, and the owner noticed that his dog did become more aggressive 2 weeks into the training so he stopped. But this does not mean that all dogs will respond this way.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

For dogs you need this: Amazon.com: Dog Dazer II Ultrasonic Dog Deterrent: Pet Supplies

And for people you need this:https://www.google.ru/search?q=dog+...PO-n_4QSs6YDIDA&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=430
It was discovered, that people are scared of dogs in muzzles, when muzzles were put on to stop the dog picking eadibles from the ground. Pink and blue colour muzzles made the difference. Pink collars make people relax. I suppose, it's all right for a puppy girl.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> This has been an interesting thread. Some good points and some nonsense.


:thumbup:

Look, not every dog should do bite work. have the dog evaluated. What I found is that schutzhund exposes your dog to you. In my opinion this makes owning it safer. You learn more about your dog and that knowledge can help you have a happier ownership experience.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Gretchen said:


> I'm curious to what kind or method of training this trainer uses. Some of them are not into corrections at all and are into complete positive methods of training, and therefore their general philosophy would be against something potentially violent.
> 
> That being said, our breeder wanted to do protection training with us and our dog. We felt she was naturally very protective and declined. We met another customer that did try protection training with his young adult male, and the owner noticed that his dog did become more aggressive 2 weeks into the training so he stopped. But this does not mean that all dogs will respond this way.


The untrained, unexperienced eye probably thought they saw aggression that was really something else.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

robk said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> Look, not every dog should do bite work. have the dog evaluated. What I found is that schutzhund exposes your dog to you. In my opinion this makes owning it safer. You learn more about your dog and that knowledge can help you have a happier ownership experience.


And you have the opportunity to go to those scary places in the mind of the dog, see how the dog behaves naturally, make the dog more comfortable there, and teach the dog what to do in that space


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## Mr. D (Oct 4, 2013)

hunterisgreat said:


> The untrained, unexperienced eye probably thought they saw aggression that was really something else.


It's amazing how many people out there don't take time to learn their dog. With that said, I can't ignore those that do.


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## 5shot (Oct 11, 2011)

PPD dogs aren't pets...SchH, IPO, KNPV, Ring Sports are games for dogs that happen to involve biting. Some dogs can do PPD, some can't, but excell at the biting sports. 

2 Different things, for 2 different types of dogs. Check out anything you can find written by Will Rambeau - he is a VERY accomplished PPD Trainer. His view mirrors your trainer. 

I wouldn't have a PPD dog in my house, but I do bite training with my GSD.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I am not recommending the OP get a PPD or train their dog in PP, but I do get tired of misconceptions. 

Burgos' Unika SchH1 OB1 TR3 AD CGC PPD


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

hunterisgreat said:


> And you have the opportunity to go to those scary places in the mind of the dog, see how the dog behaves naturally, make the dog more comfortable there, and teach the dog what to do in that space


Agree especially when it is the right type of training that reaches deep down inside the dog and exposes its strengths and its weaknesses.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

David Taggart said:


> For dogs you need this: Amazon.com: Dog Dazer II Ultrasonic Dog Deterrent: Pet Supplies
> 
> And for people you need this:https://www.google.ru/search?q=dog+...PO-n_4QSs6YDIDA&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=430
> It was discovered, that people are scared of dogs in muzzles, when muzzles were put on to stop the dog picking eadibles from the ground. Pink and blue colour muzzles made the difference. Pink collars make people relax. I suppose, it's all right for a puppy girl.


:headbang:


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## benjdow (Dec 4, 2006)

I don't know if the dog trainers comment was geared torwards dogsports like IPO, mondio, etc or protection only, but if he's a petsmart type trainer it doesn't matter...he assumes they're all the same thing...which others have noted.

Most people have no use for a PPD. The presence of a GSD is 95% of the protection you'll ever need. I train IPO with my dog and starting to get into mondio. I do it purely for the sport, not because I expect or want my dog to protect me. It's a game for him and sport for me.

Regarding being dangerous around childeren, if I had to leave my child alone around a well trained IPO GSD or an untrained GSD....I'd definitely chose the IPO trained GSD.

Here's some pics of one of our club members "vicious attack dogs". Watch the video below of that same dog with a different club members child. It was the first time the dog and child met. If a dog is dangerous around childeren, strangers, etc...it's a weaked nerved dog and shouldn't be doing dogsports.


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