# Dangerous Dog - attacking sheep



## justafarmer (Aug 9, 2009)

Our 3 year old purebred GSD has just, in the last week attacked 2 sheep on neighbouring blocks.

We've had him since he was 6 weeks old. His father was owned by a lady who was not a breeder but she was so taken by his temperament and pedigree she bought a suitable registered bitch, registered herself as a breeder, so she could keep one of their progeny.

He has not been castrated. He has always been gentle and unaggressive. We have 2 children, now 11 and 13 years old and there has never been any problem.

We have had numerous tradesmen over the last 3 years while our home was being renovated. Some recently have brought young children (4 and 6 years of age) without incident. One worker has a small dog and our GSD plays all day with it. We frequently have friends visit with young children without incident.

The dog is mostly out of the house, but he usually sits by a window looking just in on us most of the day/ night. He sleeps outside. In the Winter, he spends maybe 2 hours in the evening in the house 2-3 times a week, but it gets too hot so he gets let out. During the day my wife has him in the house most days for 2-3 hours.

We live on 5 acres (2 hectares) and we have an alpaca and 2 miniature horses (like Shetlands) and the dog occasionally chases them and barks madly at them which we stop when we see it happening. The dog arrived after these animals and he has never hurt them. Earlier this year one of the neighbour's sheep jumped into our block and spent a couple of days there - our dog did not attack it.

Last week the dog jumped the fence and mauled a sheep which had to be euthanased the next day. This evening, while our children were swimming in the indoor pool (and the dog normally just sits outside the window peeking in), he sneaked off, jumped the fence on the other side. When we realised he'd been gone for 10 mins, we went out looking and he came back with blood on his mouth and paws. Sure enough when I checked the sheep next door had been mauled. We will have to get the vet in tomorrow.

This is quite uncharacteristic as he has always been totally devoted to the family and hardly ever leaves our side.

The local "wisdom" here is that once a dog has tasted blood, he goes back for more. We didn't believe that last week after the first attack, but the way he deserted the children to do his deed has really shocked us.

The local authority said last week they had no choice but to declare him "dangerous" meaning: cage/ chain/ enclosure, prominent collar, desexing etc. We feel that it would only make him more frustrated being constrained and it might make him worse. We are seriously considering having him put down. His father's owner is considering taking him back, but we are reluctant as we worry about what he might do in the future.

Any thoughts on:
Why this has happened now?
Is there a trend for these dogs to "graduate" to attacking humans/ children (perhaps not our own but others?)
Can this behaviour be modified, and if so, how reliable is this going to be? We live in rural Australia and we don't have any Behaviourists here.

Would appreciate any comments.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

Maybe you could get a copy of this?
http://www.filmmonthly.com/television/pbs_nature_underdogs.html

PBS.org usually has them for sale.

Herbie was a sheepdog who attacked sheep, the lady actually taught him to HERD them, its a lot of work tho and she seemed to be quite expert at it but if he learns to herd them, he will be given a job and probably happier. my guess is, left to himself, outside he is BORED. He is left to himself to figure out ways to entertain himself?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

You have a dog with a wonderful temperament! However, he is left outdoors, alone, untrained, (I'm getting to that) and has found a nasty hobby because he needs more mental stimulation and involvement from you.

*Indoors not outside:* Yes, he gets hot indoors, he needs time to adjust to living with your family. Indoors means he is not overstimulated by tempting, running, stinky sheep next door. He is being trained to chase sheep by living outdoors at your place. Every time he chases the mini horses and alpacas, and you are NOT there to "catch him" at it, he "wins." The drive to catch moving animals gets fulfilled and rewarded by this very bored dog who has very little direction or involvement from family. (I know, you bring him in for a few hours sometimes.. it isn't enough-- he needs to live indoors, *WITH* his family)

*This dog needs you to be more involved*. Someone adult in the family needs to make time for this dog. he needs more excersise. Living out on the farm he has "running room," but NOT enough excersise. Someone must walk the dog, bike with him, throw balls for him-- walk him some more. He needs directed physical excersise, not left outdoors on 5 acres to invent his own games. He will not excersise himself as much as you imagine he might.

*He craves mental excersise.* This means taking obedience classes with him. Then doing the homework for these classes a few times a day. If you do not have 10 minutes, twice a day to work with him on sits and downs at home, as well as sometimes at the local park, (off the property) that can be a problem. He needs to be mentally tired out. GSDs need mental excersise. This can be fun for both of you!

*In short:* Lonely, isolated, bored dog with no mental direction, craving being indoors with his family, needing much _more involvement from you._ Have you the interest and time to become more involved with this dog? He sure seems to love your family. I bet he's worth the time and extra effort that he requires!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I agree with Patti but I also wanted to add that there is no evidence to support the idea that any dog graduates from livestock to pets, humans, etc. 

This is a problem that can be fixed but it will take work on your part. I would also take your dog to the vet and do a thorough check up to be sure that there isn't a physical problem (thyroid?) underlying this new behavior.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Bright elf is right on. I am going to add, if you don't want to do this, give the dog back to the breeder and do not worry about what the dog "will do next." If he is brought inside and worked when he is outside, he will do fine. He sounds like a wonderful, sound dog. Gosh, over the years, none of my dogs would have kept out of trouble (well, maybe one) if they had been left outdoors in that tempting environment.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Your dog isn't dangerous - he is lonely and bored. We've had a number of posts on here recently about GSD's getting into trouble, and the root cause has always been the same - a dog which is isolated and essentially ignored except for a few hours a day. How would YOU feel about always being on the outside looking in? Our dogs are descended from wolves, and in a wolf pack the only time a member is ostracized in this fashion is because of a serious transgression. I have to ask you very bluntly - why do you even have a dog? Do you ever play with him, walk him, train him? Just allowing him inside for a few hours on the weekend just isn't cutting it for an intelligent, sensitive animal. And as far as it being too hot inside just buy some fans!

If you cannot commit to making this chap a full member of your family I strongly suggest that you find him a home with people who can. GSD's need to be with human beings - that is what they were bred for, to be with the shepherd and work with him all day in the fields. They do not do well alone and left to their own devices, as you are now finding out. Please do the right thing by this chap - spend time with him, and find him a job. To end up having him "put down" (either by you or the neighbor losing his sheep) will be a failure on your part, and a waste of a good dog. 

_____________________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

going by your post i don't think you spend enough time with your dog. try training and socializing him. i don't how you introduce
him to sheep without him attacking them. build a nice pen for your dog so he'll be safe and so will the sheep.

after your dog attacked the first sheep why didn't you keep him enclosed?????


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

If the breeder is willing to take him back, why would you even think about putting him down? Sounds like a good dog who got bored, found something fun to do (he doesn't know it's wrong) and did it. 

I agree, the thinking of moving from lambs to kids is flawed and should have no effect on your relationship with your dog. But if you're uncomfortable, give him back to the breeder so he has a chance at a good life, not being PTS.


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Let me add in that you said he is jumping the fences? What type of fencing do you have to ensure safety of the sheep? Maybe "good fencing" will greatly help the problem in addition to what all the other posters have offered. 

Training and e collar training as well .


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

There is no trend for a dog to graduate from attacking livestock to attacking people. I have been involved in rehoming dogs that have killed/injured livestock into more appropriate living environments and they have gone on to be great companions with an owner who is willing to fit the environment to the dog and not the dog to the environment. In EVERY case, the previous owner of the dog in question was unwilling to A) bring the dog into the home as a house dog and B) supervise 100% of the time when the dog was out.

It sounds like you have a wonderful companion dog. You don't have a vicious killing machine problem. You have a SUPERVISION problem, and as such it is totally within your control to handle.

If you decide to give him to the sire's owner, please neuter him first so his wonderful temperament won't tempt another ill-considered litter. If you are willing to spend the money to euthanize this dog, you should be okay with spending money to neuter him before he leaves.
Sheilah


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I'm not sure how adding secure fencing, a collar, and neutering this dog will cause him more frustration or make him worse - the dog already sounds bored, lonely, and is killing sheep - also, most well kept dogs live like this and are extremely well adjusted and happy campers.

I agree with the others, either start taking care of the dog instead of ignoring him, provide secure containment, and neuter him, or else return him to the breeder so she can find a better home for him where he will feel loved and part of the family. Definitely neuter him no matter what you decide.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

aubie, don't think badly of me. your post was meant
for justafarmer.



> Originally Posted By: aubieIf the breeder is willing to take him back, why would you even think about putting him down? Sounds like a good dog who got bored, found something fun to do (he doesn't know it's wrong) and did it.
> 
> I agree, the thinking of moving from lambs to kids is flawed and should have no effect on your relationship with your dog. But if you're uncomfortable, give him back to the breeder so he has a chance at a good life, not being PTS.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm concerned for the dog. The OP has evidently posted and left.


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## justafarmer (Aug 9, 2009)

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. No I haven't left the forum - just a long day at work after a troubled night following the events of the weekend (we are half a day ahead of most of you, time wise).

Just to answer some questions. After the first incident, we at first believed that our dog was responsible for the mauling. Then trying to piece together the scenario - my wife who was out gardening heard him barking, raced to the fence line to find him barking at one sheep which ran off uninjured, called him over, reprimanded him and didn't see any blood/ sheep fur on him; also recalling that a sheep had only months ago jumped into our block and spent 2 days there without incident: furthermore the neighbours on the other side had, with my assistance perhaps 18 months ago, introduced the dog to his 6 sheep and taught him not to chase the sheep; he knows not to hurt our alpaca/ mini horses; he's been very good with all the kids' friends and children of our friends - we began to question whether in fact the dog was innocent and just happened to jump the fence to 'herd'/ chase the animals or perhaps was reacting to a fox attack on the sheep (there are very many round these parts - they are a real pest). We did however take precautions after the event and had him muzzled, or locked in the garage or in the house most of the day - only letting him out for toileting and it was on one of these occasions when he was let out that we didn't put his muzzle on for the first time in a week that he disappeared for 10 mins. Bad error.

In regard to fencing, the block we live on would probably have 1/2 mile of fencing so it is economically not viable to erect a dog-proof fence. It's just a typical rural fence - 4 foot post and 4-5 wires.

Essentially though, I agree with everything in the replies thus far. To be fair, my wife reminds me that she does take the dog through a sit/ stay/ heel/ drop/ fetch routine most days of the week. It might last perhaps 15 minutes. We spend much of the weekend working in the garden when the dog happily sits by our side or goes for a walk with the boys. We used to take him out to the beach for walks, but this has decreased in the last year due to the kids' growing older/ school work/ other interests incl sport. We believed that the dog would have enough excercise on the 5 acre block - we now know that he needs more.

However, when I wrote the post, I suspected that we hadn't put enough into our dog in his three years. The fact that he had not strayed far nor attacked any animals in three years despite not being desexed and being unsupervised all day/ night I think is a testimony to how special he is and how amazing the breed is. Personally, I believe we got him too early in our lives - we were just in the middle of home renovations with no enclosure to keep the pup in and had growing boys with increasing demands - but the wife and kids couldn't say no. When he was a pup he spent most of the day in our house up till about a 12 months of age when we developed enough trust to gradually leave him outside for progressively longer periods.

In fact the little fella is amazing. During the day he sits at the bottom of the driveway waiting for the boys to return from school. We taught him early on never to stray near the front gate - it is a 100km/h (60 mph) highway and he has never been out the gateway on his own in 3 years (we've only had a gate for 6 months - it used to be open access!).

So he has responded to our limited training marvellously and I do agree that he's done what he's done out of boredom. Unfortunately we/ he can no longer enjoy this unsupervised freedom. Perhaps he should never have been allowed to (?)

The plan now is - he's being desexed tomorrow. My wife (who didn't sleep a wink last night and was severely traumatized this morning assisting in euthanasing the 2nd injured sheep) and I are considering whether we as a family can commit ourselves to spending more time with and including the dog more into the home/ family. If we do decide we can, we will build an enclosure adjacent to the house where he can be easily let in and out to contain him. I have suggested we go back to obedience classes - in particular I want my wife to be able to control him instantly with her voice (in case he makes an unexpected dash for it when walking with her). I can do this - there must be something about the male voice.

Someone has suggested a fencing wire which can induce an electric shock to the dog's collar. I would not have considered this humane a week ago, but having seen what the dog can do to a sheep and realising there is a possibility that, with the "taste of blood" in him, he might escape from our planned enclosure one day, I wonder whether this may be a good 'insurance policy'. What do people think about this in the current situation?

I also question whether we should take the dog on a leash into a sheep paddock and cautiously/ gradually allow him to roam freely amongst the animals, reprimanding him if he shows aggression and rewarding him if he shows restraint. I believe the earlier we do this the better - rather than having the memory of the recent adrenaline rush of the chase be permanently imprinted into his head.

After reading some of your comments, I realised that if we treat the dog as a human, it would be less of an animal and hopefully that 'wild' side would diminish.

However, if we decide we cannot give the time to the dog, then he will return to his breeder who has called saying her adult daughter interstate would love to have him.

Thanks again for all your thoughts. It has helped.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

On the shock collar thing - never have one of those on a dog unless you are present. There are a couple of issues that come to mind right off the bat. 1. They can malfunction (stay on) and totally mess up your dog. 2. If the temptation is strong enough on the other side, your dog can bolt through them. 3. They can malfunction and not deliver the shock.

I wouldn't use a shock collar. An electric fence works on most dogs (I've had fluffy coated dogs that it didn't phase.) A regular old farm electric fence, a couple of rows of active wire. (And supervision and training.) Or they make small animal electric fences that run pretty close to ground level. You could use these as a fail-safe type system after implementing a lot of the other suggestions.

Good luck. 

BTW the only dog that I have had kill someone's livestock was my innocent appearing Sammy that decided the neighbor's chickens would be fun. She only nailed one chicken, the neighbor was very forgiving and I was awfully contrite. (I was also very young but I say that now - didn't think so then.)


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Why would you have to fence your entire property? You could just fence an area by the house that you could afford and then the dog would be properly contained.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereOn the shock collar thing - never have one of those on a dog unless you are present. There are a couple of issues that come to mind right off the bat. 1. They can malfunction (stay on) and totally mess up your dog. 2. If the temptation is strong enough on the other side, your dog can bolt through them. 3. They can malfunction and not deliver the shock.


From my experience, please do not use a shock collar unless a trainer has taught you how to. I fried my dog due to my own ignorance. It's been on the shelf since then. When middleofnowhere says it can screw up your dog...it's very, very true.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhereOn the shock collar thing - never have one of those on a dog unless you are present. There are a couple of issues that come to mind right off the bat. 1. They can malfunction (stay on) and totally mess up your dog.


Modern Ecollars (not the tool that the OP is referring to BTW) have automatic shut offs in case they malfunction. Quality units all have devices that shut them off after 8-12 seconds in case they malfunction. 



> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere 2. If the temptation is strong enough on the other side, your dog can bolt through them.


This is accurate, particularly if the attraction on the other side of the fence is strong enough. 



> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere 3. They can malfunction and not deliver the shock.


Another accurate statement. I'm not a fan of _"invisible fences"_ as they're often called for the reasons stated above. And one more … if the dog does get out, the shock will probably keep him from coming home. He won't be nearly as excited as when he ignored the shock and blasted through the fence. 



> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere I wouldn't use a shock collar.


I would. In fact chasing animals is exactly the reason that Ecollars were invented. Back then, they were used when the dog started the chase. Hit the button (early ones had only one, very high level) and the dog was blasted off the chase. They learned to associate the pain from the shock with the chase and most stopped. 

But I'd suggest that you not use the tool that way. I developed a protocol that will let you use a quality Ecollar at low levels of discomfort to prevent the dog from chasing the sheep ever again. You can read about it HERE.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I think the bottom line on this issue is supervision and management of the dog. I would not let him wnader among the animals at will ever. I would not leave him outside unless in a secure fenced area either. I would continue training but also understnad no dog is 100% reliable and neither are we humans. 

If you cannot spare time for the dog please re-home the dog for your's and his benefit. He really sounds like a great dog. 

I hope you guys can get a handle on this supervision issue.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWI think the bottom line on this issue is supervision and management of the dog.


I've never been a fan of management in place of training. Using management until the training is complete is necessary. But to rely on it for the life of the dog is to almost guarantee that the behavior will reoccur. As you point out, "no dog is 100% reliable and neither are we humans." This fallibility as humans, means that sooner of later we'll make a mistake and the dog will find himself among the sheep again. If he's been trained it won't be a problem.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

If you just let the dog in with your family for the majority of the time and have a good sized enclosure attached to your home you will probably see a big difference in his behavior.

They thrive on being with their people.

Because they are so smart, they will find something to do, and with no direction and little interaction, it probably won't be something pleasing to you.

Think five year old left with access to everything in your home, have learned no boundaries, with no supervision or interaction... at best you'd have crayons on the wall, at worst, an injured child.

He sounds like such a wonderful dog with your children and others, I'd think you'd love to have him with you more.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KathyWI think the bottom line on this issue is supervision and management of the dog.
> ...


I have been trained to do lots of things and I still make mistakes. It may still be a problem cause I ain't perfect. That is where management and supervision come in. I agree management is a tool to allow space for training but it still is not foolproof.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: I've never been a fan of management in place of training. Using management until the training is complete is necessary. But to rely on it for the life of the dog is to almost guarantee that the behavior will reoccur. As you point out, "no dog is 100% reliable and neither are we humans." This fallibility as humans, means that sooner of later we'll make a mistake and the dog will find himself among the sheep again. If he's been trained it won't be a problem.





> Originally Posted By: KathyW I have been trained to do lots of things and I still make mistakes.


There's really no comparison between a human being "trained for something" and making a mistake and a dog being trained for something and following his instincts. Comparisons between the two are bound to be misleading. The training may not have been done properly and so the dog AGAIN follows his instincts. That's not _"a mistake"_ to the dog and he'll never have that perception. 

My crittering protocol was originally developed to stop police dogs from chasing cats during urban yard–to–yard searches. Never has a dog that I've trained this way, chased a cat once the training was done. It also works on SAR dogs that chase deer or other critters. Those dogs also don't revert to chasing once the training is done. To ensure this, I recommend a reminder session once in a while. Just as with any other kind of training.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

Wow, condemmnig a dog because you *think* he killed some sheep. Was there a witness to this? You mentioned fox in the area and it seems to me your dog is pretty darn well behaved and very smart. Did anyone ever consider the fact that perhaps your dog heard the fox (or some other animal) at the sheep and went to HELP the sheep and that MAYBE the blood on your dog is fox blood and not sheep blood?


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## justafarmer (Aug 9, 2009)

Just an update.

He's had his desexing operation and recovering well.

He spends all day inside the house now and has acclimatised to the inside temp. He's developed some very good toileting habits - when he has to go, he comes up right in front of a family member and sits staring at us in the eye, or occasionally whines loudly when no one is nearby.



> Originally Posted By: Riley's MomWow, condemmnig a dog because you *think* he killed some sheep. Was there a witness to this? You mentioned fox in the area and it seems to me your dog is pretty darn well behaved and very smart. Did anyone ever consider the fact that perhaps your dog heard the fox (or some other animal) at the sheep and went to HELP the sheep and that MAYBE the blood on your dog is fox blood and not sheep blood?


You are correct - no eyewitnesses and only a DNA test could have provided the proof one way or the other. But, even as a sympathetic owner, I feel the circumstantial evidence was pretty heavily weighed against the dog.

He gets a walk 2-3 times a day, more on weekends when we are out in the garden. He gets muzzled when not on a leash, even within the confines of our own 5 acres. But that's because our perimeter fence is not dog proof. This is difficult for us, but we can't risk another incident.

I'm considering getting a sheep into our paddock to train our dog not to chase/ attack it. What do people think about this?


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

To bad it's to late for the DNA test. I have my doubts your dog is responsible for the damages and if this were me, I'd want to know for my own sake. I just don't buy it that your dog is at fault, there's just to much of a history of his gentle nature for me to feel otherwise I guess.

A dog can be trained to do many things and I would go as far as to say some dogs would most definitely be up to 99.99% reliable. I will never go 100% reliability for *any* dog because a dog is still and always will be an animal first and foremost. Which of course in this case can be related to both my feeling he didn't do this and to bringing in a sheep for training. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try ...

and thanks for not just getting rid of him







it seems you're dedicated to fixing this some way some how just in case he is the guilty one.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm glad things are working out for this family & this dog. But to the point of gentle natured dogs being safe around other beasts -- I think in an earlier post I mentioned that my most innocent, friendly, good natured dog (Samoyed) was the dog that decided to kill the neighbor's chickens one day when she got loose. No hint of this behavior before or since but there she was in the chicken yard reeking havoc on the chickens.
And then there was the weekend after I had spoken to my friend about how responsible and sensible her oldest son was. He got pulled over for doing 90 in a 60 with a car load of other teenagers.


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

I know that different animals/predators "kill" or maul in different ways. Some obviously for food, some for the thrill of the hunt, or out of boredom.

When we had chickens dissappearing/injured/killed the Agriculture Department or Department of Conservation was able to explain how by examining the evidence, or lack there of , the type of animal that was the culprit.

If certain organs were eaten, if entire carcasses dissappeared, neck broken, etc, the location of the wounds, etc. Different methods employed by different species, would point to snake, skunk, fox, dog, owls, hawks, coyote, etc.

So by examining the type of damage on the sheep an experienced person would be able to tell you the animal inflicting the harm.

In our case we knew we had a variety of stalkers, killers, of the chickens, including some of my own german shepherds as well as a fox and owls. Some of them as others will attest, simply will go after birds and other animals due to higher prey drive.

I would not put it past a german shepherd to harm sheep at all...when I HAD, operative word, HAD, sheep a couple of my dogs went into full on attack mode. Because my fences were not good enough we sold the sheep until we could put up proper fencing for everyone's safety. 

One sheep we found badly injured and believe it was simply "run" near to death and rammed into the fence too many times trying to escape and we had to put her down. Although we did not witness this, as we had a friend over watching for the weekend, I am sure I know exactly which dog chased her down. MY SWEETEST most loving female who would never hurt a human, cat, chicken or other animal, but when those sheep came it was like a switch was turned on in her brain, primal even. 

I had bought the sheep to do herding with some of my dogs but found I was not well prepared for the instinct some had and without proper fencing it was not fair to the sheep.


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