# Hips Questions.



## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I have a question about hips, I may have more that pop up when answers start coming in.

Well anyways, I would be looking at pictures at other GSDs and notice their hips seem more muscular or built or bulky. I am not sure the proper term for it.

Well I was wondering about this for my GSD, Molly. Her hips don't seem to be like most. She is a Pet Line GSD.lol. Her dad was big, my sister's friend's brother, has Molly's brother and my sister has pctures of him and his is also big.

I was walking Molly once and these guys stopped us and complimented on how pretty she was and noticed that she didn't have the big hips or muscular hips like most GSDs.

She has since filled out more since this, but her hips are still not as big or muscular as most GSDs.Her legs rae not weak or anything, I am just wondering is this normal that her hips are not as thick as some GSDs? Since she wasn't purposely bred or anything and a Pet line GSD could that be the reason why?

Here are pics of Molly stacking and non-stacking pics:























































Other German Shepherds:
http://www.petplanet.co.uk/petplanet/images/breeds/gsd3680.jpg

http://www.pups4sale.com.au/german_shepherd_glenbala_03.jpg

http://www.siegerhof.com/_borders/Bodo-Germany.jpg

http://neveryetmelted.com/wp-images/EastGermanShepherd.jpg


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

How early was she spayed, and did you get her from a breeder? I'm not completely sure of the effects of early spaying, but I know in males there is the risk that they will not fill out as much and be tall and lanky. 

It's possible that...

A. They (and you) are comparing her to males that are more full bodied.

B. She was spayed early and didn't develope as much muscle mass.

C. She was poorly bred and just didn't develope quite the same as most GSDs. 

D. She just doesn't have as much muscle.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

She has rather odd structure for a GSD. Very tall and lean and lanky, and I would expect very quick and athletic. I don't think it appropriate to compare her to other GSDs with very different structure, and especially not to compare one body part of her's to that body part on others.

Her rear end structure is proportionate to the rest of her, as it should be. A more bulky hind end would look very out of place and unbalanced since the rest of her is not bulky.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

That is just her structure. BYBs don't care/look for good structure.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

My male mix was neutered super early so he is VERY tall, lean, leggy, and feminine looking. Most people mistake him for a female. The top of his butt end is actually higher up than his wither which is usually the tallest part of the dog's back. Other than being a long coat, his rear end actually looks quite similar to Molly, with the higher rear and little angulation.

My female GSD is also lean and has very little angulation for a GSD. She has great hips and has some famous working lines close in her pedigree. Not everyone is breeding for extreme rear, and being a small female she doesn't have the muscle mass or that "look" like my male show line, who has more angulation and far more muscle mass in the rear from his training.

I don't think anything is wrong with Molly. There really isn't "normal" even if she's pure GSD because there are so many lines and types and aspects of conformation that people are breeding for or against.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> That is just her structure. BYBs don't care/look for good structure.


She isn't from a BYB, she was $25. He parents owners just never had their dogs fixed. She is an oops litter. Her dad was huge though, and her mom was small.

Thanks everyone. I was just wondering about because I saw other GSDs with bigger hips. I just thought something was wrong.

Yes she is very athletic and fast.lol.

She has I guess you can say filled out more.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Nope, nothing's wrong, all dogs are different. 

btw- bybs are any breeder that isn't reputable. Oops or not. That's just irresponsibleness, but they still bred. At least it's good to know that you didn't get suckered into the tons of people that pay hundreds of dollars for dogs of the same quality.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Nope, nothing's wrong, all dogs are different.
> 
> btw- bybs are any breeder that isn't reputable. Oops or not. That's just irresponsibleness, but they still bred. At least it's good to know that you didn't get suckered into the tons of people that pay hundreds of dollars for dogs of the same quality.


BYBs are a breeder who care nothing for the dogs and charge outrageous prices for poorly bred dogs and purposely breed their dogs because they can, and sadly there is no law against it.I never said they were reputable. 

Her parents owners just didn't think they needed to have their dogs fix because they just didn't. They just weren't paying attention more to their dogs and keep them separated when their girl went into heat, but it doesn't make them a BYB. They didn't mean to have puppies, they just weren't being careful.. There are many people who have intact dogs(male and female) that are responsible. You don't have to have an fixed to be a responsible dog owner.They charged $25 to cover the cost of the puppies being whelped and all the other costs of puppies being born.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

No, the term BYB is not limited to those charging "outrageous prices". It is a term used for anyone considered to be irresponsible, whatever each individual user's definition of irresponsible is, but it is not limited to those with a certain price bracket.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> BYBs are a breeder who care nothing for the dogs and charge outrageous prices for poorly bred dogs and purposely breed their dogs because they can, and sadly there is no law against it.I never said they were reputable.
> 
> Her parents owners just didn't think they needed to have their dogs fix because they just didn't. They just weren't paying attention more to their dogs and keep them separated when their girl went into heat, but it doesn't make them a BYB. They didn't mean to have puppies, they just weren't being careful.. *There are many people who have intact dogs(male and female) that are responsible.* You don't have to have an fixed to be a responsible dog owner.They charged $25 to cover the cost of the puppies being whelped and all the other costs of puppies being born.


I know, I'm one of them.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> No, the term BYB is not limited to those charging "outrageous prices". It is a term used for anyone considered to be irresponsible, whatever each individual user's definition of irresponsible is, but it is not limited to those with a certain price bracket.


Thanks for setting that straight.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> No, the term BYB is not limited to those charging "outrageous prices". It is a term used for anyone considered to be irresponsible, whatever each individual user's definition of irresponsible is, but it is not limited to those with a certain price bracket.


I know, but most BYBs do that, and there are some who don't charge anything, and continue to breed their dogs because they have the right to do so and don't care what others think.

This were there first and only litter of puppies. They didn't fix their dogs because they didn't think they needed to and didn't think an oops litter would happen to them. After Molly and her littermates were born it was the first & last litter he parent's owners had. That to me is not a BYB, its just a careless mistake and weren't watching when their dog was in heat. So to take care of their carelessness they got their dogs fixed.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

It may not seem like it to you, but they are, by "definition" byb. It only takes one time. 

It's kind of like saying that a person didn't use contraception because they didn't think they needed to and didn't think anything would happen to them, but because after the first baby they started using contraceptives, it justifies it somehow.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

Chris Wild said:


> No, the term BYB is not limited to those charging "outrageous prices". It is a term used for anyone considered to be irresponsible, whatever each individual user's definition of irresponsible is, but it is not limited to those with a certain price bracket.


:thumbup: I agree with this. Well said Chris!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> It may not seem like it to you, but they are, by "definition" byb. It only takes one time.
> 
> It's kind of like saying that a person didn't use contraception because they didn't think they needed to and didn't think anything would happen to them, but because after the first baby they started using contraceptives, it justifies it somehow.


No they aren't.

Backyard Breeders are people who breed their dogs either for profit or because they have 2 dogs and just let them breed and breed. They also don't breed to the standard, and sometimes breed unhealthy dogs and don't care where the puppies end up, and don't screen the potential puppies.


Ignorance of selective breeding goals and techniques, and lack of familiarity with the breed standard of the type of dog being bred.
Exclusive focus on the breed standard involving little genetic screening or Co-efficient of Inbreeding calculations.
Breeding of a working breed for appearance rather than working ability. This is a criticism also levelled at 'reputable' breeders who breed for the show ring - in some cases distinct *working* and *show* strains have emerged.
Lack of adequate veterinary care and maintenance.
Excessive breeding from individual bitches, to the detriment of their health.
Sale of puppies with genetic disorders or undisclosed illnesses before they become evident to buyers.
Lack of screening of potential owners or the provision of suitable information to prevent buyers from purchasing a dog that may be inappropriate for them or their lifestyle.
Breeding of dogs for illegitimate reasons, such as for the usually illegal sports of baiting and dog fighting or to defend venues of criminal activity. Dog fanciers generally believe that such ill-bred dogs are the reason for the bad reputation of some breeds in the public perception, and the resulting breed-specific legislation.
Breeding without concern for the possibility of finding homes, though commercial means or otherwise, for the puppies, thus adding to the population of unwanted dogs.
Yeah I used wiki, but they had a list of what an actual BYB is. I looked at other sites, and they basically said the same thing. I am not saying what my dog's parent's owners did was smart, but I am just saying they are not BYBs.

What they did was careless and irresponsible, but they made up for it by making sure the puppies went to good homes, had the puppy buyers sign a contract saying we would have the dogs fixed, they gave us her health records, they had made connections with a nearby shelter in case any of the puppies did not get sold, and all the puppies were sold, after all the puppies were sold, they got their dogs fixed. They knew the puppies weren't from champion bloodlines, and they didn't expect it or mean for it to happen.They didn't let the puppies go home til they were 8 weeks old.

So the next best thing(s) they could do were to make sure the puppies went to good homes, got the puppies dewormed and the other vaccinations needed, and they got the parent's fixed after the puppies were gone, so this incident did not happen again.they knew it was their fault. I do not condone what they did, but if someone ends up with a pregnant dog, and do the best to make sure the puppies are taken care of, and given to good homes, and get their dog fixed after, then I wouldn't call them a BYB.

They did something that could have been prevented, but did their best to make up for it.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

The reason I don't consider them BYBs is because they didn't intend to breed their dogs, and since it happened, the decided to do the next best thing and that was taking care of the puppies, getting them their basic vaccines(the ones necessary for the puppies) screening the puppy buyers, making them sign a contract saying the buyers will fix their dogs, providing the health papers, also having contacted and let the shelter take in any puppies that were not sold, and most of all fixing their dogs after the puppies were gone, and making sure this were not to happen again. 

They took responsibility of their actions. Thats why I don't consider them BYBs. Most BYBs are breeding for money, think puppies are cute, don't fix their dogs and the dogs have puppies and sell the puppies and still breed their dogs, claim they are "reptuable" breeders when they aren't. I don't see them in any of those categories. Thats why I consider them not BYBs. No I don't condone what they did, but I give them credit for taking responsibilty for their wrong doings.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Backyard Breeders are people who breed their dogs either for profit or *because they have 2 dogs and just let them breed* and breed. They also *don't breed to the standard, and sometimes breed unhealthy dogs.*


That's what your neighbor did.



Jessiewessie99 said:


> Most BYBs are breeding for money, think puppies are cute, don't fix their dogs and the dogs have puppies and sell the puppies and still breed their dogs, claim they are "reptuable" breeders when they aren't. I don't see them in any of those categories. Thats why I consider them not BYBs. No I don't condone what they did, but I give them credit for taking responsibilty for their wrong doings.


They bred for money. You paid $25 for Molly. If they realized they were responsible for it all, they'd give them away. No sense in buying poorly bred dogs. They didn't think the puppies were cute? That's not a valid arguement. Everyone does, regardless of breed/age/health. They didn't fix their dogs when they should have. 

And I don't know any byb that claims to be reputable. I see them on CL all the time, I've contacted some and talked to them, and they do the opposite, basically. They think reputable breeders are "weird", "retarded", and keep all their dogs in kennels, so they hate being called or thought of as one. 

I think you're very naive about this situation, and you don't want to be thought of as buying from a byb when you're so dead set against them, but I'm sure it wasn't your choice anyway, you were younger when it happened, your parents would have the resonsibility of that, not you.

I am not going to argue with you about this further though. You won't let anything go or accept the truth, so... it's whatever.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

Chris Wild said:


> No, the term BYB is not limited to those charging "outrageous prices". It is a term used for anyone considered to be irresponsible, *whatever each individual user's definition of irresponsible is*, but it is not limited to those with a certain price bracket.


IMHO this says it all!!! While some people may believe an oops litter of unaltered, questionable quality pets sold for a nominal fee wouldn't fit into the definition of a BYB, there are those of us who would put the owners of this type of litter into the BYB category. As Chris says, it's "*whatever each individual user's definition of irresponsible is*"!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with the above as well^^.

BYB'ers don't necessarily breed and breed and breed. 

When I was your age, I also bought a dog for 25$, even then, I knew what I could possibly be in for, no testing, no nothing, but he needed a home and I'm a sap

Lucky for me, he turned out to be a great dog, lived a long and healthy life and even tho he was an 'oops' litter, I knew he sure wasn't going to be a good rep of the breed, and I could only "hope" that he'd be healthy.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Really the term "BYB" like "Puppy Mill" doesn't have any set definition. These terms largely came in use due to AR groups trying to turn breeders against each other. They have now become part of most dog people's vocabulary but they still don't have any one real definition. 

Regardless as to what you think about your dog's "breeders", what is said about BYB GSDs on this thread applies to your dog. In this case the term is being used to describe carelessly bred GSDs from pet lines and the lack of consistant "type" and structure which is produced from such breedings.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I know, I'm one of them.


I am also one of the responsible owners of an intact male. My male is 15 months old and he aint no baby daddy :nono:

When you decide to keep your dog intact wether it's until he/she is a certain age or permanently you have to be responsible and make sure he/she doesn't end up adding to the doggy population.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> No, the term BYB is not limited to those charging "outrageous prices". It is a term used for anyone considered to be irresponsible, whatever each individual user's definition of irresponsible is, but it is not limited to those with a certain price bracket.


 
Well said Chris


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

LaRen, I am cracking up at your "he ain't no baby daddy" line )))


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> That's what your neighbor did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You read my post wrong. I am not denying it either.If she was from a byb

They didn't want it to happen nor did they expect it. They thought the could keep 2 intact dogs, but it didn't go so well, so they got their dogs fixed so that mistake would not happen again.

The reason she was $25 bucks was because they needed it to help pay for the health expenses, yea it costs alot for those, but they probably needed more to pay the difference.

They had every right to keep the dogs intact, there is no law stating that they have to.yes many BYBs claim to be reputable so people will buy from them. They knew their dogs were not champion bred or bred on purpose, so why sell them for so much when they aren't?

I am not being naive, just like Chris said, everyone has their own definition of BYB.And you and me have different definitions of bybs.If I think she is but she isn't.

We got her 3 years ago, I wasn't that young, don't bring my age into this.I am against bybs and to me they don't seem like bybs, just people who had an oopse litter and did the next best thing to prevent it form happening again, and made sure the puppies got fixed and did whats best for the puppies.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

JakodaCD OA said:


> LaRen, I am cracking up at your "he ain't no baby daddy" line )))


They should have a Muary show for dogs.lol

And I am not against anyone having intact dog, as long as they do it responsibly. For some it doesn't work out.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

You either contradict yourself or type incorrectly quite a bit and I can't understand what you're trying to say, so I'm not going to comment on that. 

I hate how you have to turn every thread you start into an arguement.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> You either contradict yourself or type incorrectly quite a bit and I can't understand what you're trying to say, so I'm not going to comment on that.
> 
> I hate how you have to turn every thread you start into an arguement.


I can read, and understand my post very well, and I type good too.

I did not start it, you are the one who said that a byb is this, when everyone has their own definition of a byb. And my definition is different from yours and you had to go on and say my definition is wrong.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Everyone may interpret a BYB differently, but there's no arguing that someone who's dog had puppies (she could have emergency spayed, but didn't=irresponsible) without being titled or health tested is a byb. Sorry. 

*"If I think she is but she isn't." *you said that and it made no sense, so I couldn't comment, sorry. You also don't use spaces correctly, and use commas in the wrong areas, which makes it hard to read your posst. I've noticed you commenting on other users not typing correctly, but I find it hard to read or understand you often.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Everyone may interpret a BYB differently, but there's no arguing that someone who's dog had puppies (she could have emergency spayed, but didn't=irresponsible) without being titled or health tested is a byb. Sorry.
> 
> *"If I think she is but she isn't." *you said that and it made no sense, so I couldn't comment, sorry. *You also don't use spaces correctly, and use commas in the wrong areas, which makes it hard to read your posst.* I've noticed you commenting on other users not typing correctly, but I find it hard to read or understand you often.


If you couldn't under stand something repeat and ask.

I can understand my posts just fine.And last time I check this wasn't English class.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Of course you can read them- you wrote them. 

And of course it isn't English class, that's why I don't correct improper uses of words or misspellings, but when you use the wrong punctuation it can make it hard to read, and makes it hard for people to join in on a conversation. Doesn't show intelligence very well either, of course.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am going to put you two into a thread and let you fight your way out. 

Yes I am. 
No you're not. 
Yes I am. 
You are. 
No you are. 

Knock it off. The number of times that one of you posts followed by the other yammering at the first is astounding. Look it up. Mind boggling. 

I am locking this thread and will continue to lock threads as you do this. 

Jean
Admin


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