# Is this dog worth the evaluation?



## dolce (Nov 27, 2014)

I understand this is probably a puppy post, but I feel like I can get specific answers here as well. I have a 13 wk old pup who isn't from working lines, but both her parents are titled working dogs. She had gone to puppy protection classes(mostly just flirt pole and rag work) from 8-12 wks and did very well alone, but when brought to work around the other puppys would just freeze up out of fear. She has high drive and is highly intelligent and extremely willing to work. She just has an extreme fears other dogs. I try to socialize her around other dogs and puppys, but it seems to be making things worse. It started with around other dogs she would just freeze up and run away or run between my legs. Now she will spot the dog in the distance and immediately become aggressive. All her hair on her back and neck goes up and barks and then when they get closer she will aggressively lunge at the dog and then when they get closer, she will then just cower between my legs. I have no idea what I am suppose to do. So again my question for here is, should I even spend the time and money to have this pup evaluated for schutzhund? She is perfect around strangers and strange situations, it is only other dogs, but I still fear her nerve and temperament is where it should be.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

puppy protection class? If she is fearful of other dogs, then IMO her temperament may not be stable enough for the sport. On the other hand, good handling can teach her to ignore other dogs. Find a good club, let them do the evaluation and go from there.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Are you thinking IPO for fun, or hope to compete seriously with her one day?


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## dolce (Nov 27, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> puppy protection class? If she is fearful of other dogs, then IMO her temperament may not be stable enough for the sport. On the other hand, good handling can teach her to ignore other dogs. Find a good club, let them do the evaluation and go from there.


it was an open protection class where they had a segment for puppys to socialize while working the rags and such.


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## dolce (Nov 27, 2014)

N Smith said:


> Are you thinking IPO for fun, or hope to compete seriously with her one day?


Just for fun, as this is my first time. I wish to take it more seriously in several years when I have more experience and can put a lot more time and money into it.


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

Your puppy sounds like my dog. My dog is genetically weak nerved in that regard and has been professionally evaluated by several trainers (including the local IPO director) that she's not a candidate for IPO. Looking back, I now realized I should not have further stressed her by trying so hard in getting her used to being around dogs but should have just focused on her trusting me and building bond. 

Not saying your dog is the same way but your description sounds exactly like my dog. If your dog is anything like mine, forcing her to socialize with other dogs will only encourage her to develop fear aggression that feeds itself. 

It costed me nothing to have my dog evaluated for IPO. Maybe you can just visit your local club and have a casual meet up like me. I told the IPO director my observations of my dog, then the IPO director saw the dog, saw how she reacted to the environment and told me right away why she is not a good candidate.


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

not all GSDs are cut out for protection training. my dog is a timid dud when it comes to that. our trainer is honest and won't charge us for doing training she would suck at. instead we do rally and agility. there's a lot of different things to get into and not all dogs are cut out for all of them.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I saw that my boy was dog reactive at an early age--11 weeks. Fantastic dog with all kinds of people, noises, equipment, etc. On this forum I learned about doing exercises from Control Unleashed and worked on a lot of engagement. I walked early morning and just before sundown on 35 ft. lunge line and harness. One park is better in the morning for avoiding dogs and a different one in the pm. I avoided other dogs on purpose so as not to make the situation worse.

When I went places where there were dogs, like the feed store, I corrected him with a prong collar which suppressed the barking and lunging.

I waited until I had lots of engagement behind us and signed up for a basic obedience class at 8.5 months with other dogs. He is reactive, but settles quickly because of the exercise (games) I did in Control Unleashed. I am also going to take a Reactive Rover class in January to counter condition. I slept in late today and went to the park later than usual. He knows that if he sees another dog in the distance to come back to me and I will give him lots of treats.

If a dog is too close, he's an embarrassing maniac. That's why we are taking classes specifically for dog reactivity.

I want to do off-leash sports with my dog, so I need to do more than suppress the behavior. I am not using a prong collar now. I use a gentle leader which has been effective on a 6 ft. leash.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think you are expecting WAYYYY to much from a 13 wk old puppy. 

And if this


> Now she will spot the dog in the distance and immediately become aggressive. All her hair on her back and neck goes up and barks and then when they get closer she will aggressively lunge at the dog and then when they get closer, she will then just cower between my legs.


is going on with a dog that young, get a very good trainer ASAP to help you socialize that pup.

Where did you get her at?


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## dolce (Nov 27, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> Where did you get her at?


 I got her from a buddy of mine. It was an accidental litter, not planned. Also any recommended trainers in Sacramento/NorCal area?


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## wolfmanusf (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't think it is going to hurt anything by taking your dog to a schutzhund club. Judging only from your description, it sounds like there may be some temperament issues, that may manifest itself into aggression later on down the line. Schutzhund may be a good outlet, letting him/her learn to channel that aggression. Ultimately, schutzhund should make you a better trainer and better able to read your dog and any future dogs you may have.

Good Luck, hope everything works out how you want it.


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## dolce (Nov 27, 2014)

scarfish said:


> not all GSDs are cut out for protection training. my dog is a timid dud when it comes to that. our trainer is honest and won't charge us for doing training she would suck at. instead we do rally and agility. there's a lot of different things to get into and not all dogs are cut out for all of them.


 I too think I might just try out agility our something and push schutzhund to another time in the future, different dog of course. 




Moriah said:


> I saw that my boy was dog reactive at an early age--11 weeks. Fantastic dog with all kinds of people, noises, equipment, etc. On this forum I learned about doing exercises from Control Unleashed and worked on a lot of engagement. I walked early mourning and just before sundown on 35 ft. lunge line and harness. One park is better in the morning for avoiding dogs and a different one in the pm. I avoided other dogs on purpose so as not to make the situation worse.


 I will look into this. Thanks!


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## dolce (Nov 27, 2014)

wolfmanusf said:


> I don't think it is going to hurt anything by taking your dog to a schutzhund club. Judging only from your description, it sounds like there may be some temperament issues, that may manifest itself into aggression later on down the line. Schutzhund may be a good outlet, letting him/her learn to channel that aggression. Ultimately, schutzhund should make you a better trainer and better able to read your dog and any future dogs you may have.
> 
> Good Luck, hope everything works out how you want it.


 Thank you! Yeah hopefully things will turn out well, I don't want a dog I can't take any where because aggression. I think I will just have her evaluated and see where it goes.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

One of my current dogs was just like this and I was in the same situation with him as a puppy. I diecided not to pursue schutzhund with him, but I think he would have done fine based on his temperament now (club level). I was going to rehome him since the breeder sent me a replacement but never got around to it because I never found a suitable home, and now I wouldn't even sell him for any amount of money. 

Some of it suppressed with maturity, some translated into dog aggression (to certain dogs he did not know as a youngster) and some of it is still obvious fear. Great dog otherwise and I would clone him if I could. I pretty much kept him from any closeness with other dogs as a puppy (except my own) and only allowed him around neutral adult dogs occasionally, and always off leash, since the leash seemed to make it even worse--probably some factor from me :blush:
I worked him in obedience games around strange dogs at a distance sometimes too. 

He does ok passing dogs on walks, etc now as an adult with the occasional huffing and puffing that I shut down right away so it doesn't go any further and we move on. But he wasn't really reactive beyond some fear growling until he was an adult.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what is the hurry . 

much much much too young .

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If your dog is dog aggressive or reactive agility, rally, etc. can actually be more stimulating with more dogs around to get upset by than schutzhund. Also, their handlers are less likely to understand a dog that doesn't play well with others and dog-dog interaction is extremely restricted in schutzhund, if it happens at all. 

Plenty of schutzhund dogs aren't super social with others, especially because many are intact males. They have to work around other dogs but they don't need to socialize and for protection dogs are worked alone.

I'd get her evaluated, why not. But I'd wait until she's a bit older, personally. 8-10 months is my preference.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

She is a puppy!!!!!....let her grow up!.....if you take a six year old kid and ask them to walk into dark strange alley at 11 pm, odds are they will be afraid or reluctant......take that same kid at 20 years old and that alley is no problem.....let the puppy reach 1 year before you start assessing these issues.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

This is an honest question for some posting here.......because I'm truly confused because some responses seem hypocritical to me. I do not mean to offend anyone at all, not my intention, since sometimes its hard to read through the lines. 
There are several posters here who are saying .....let the puppy be a puppy, too young to worry about this stuff, etc but I guess I have an issue with this. Is it not true that most puppies, with regard to their core temperament, will show you who they are at a young age. I found this to be true of all of my current dogs....the one mal was unsure and afraid around other dogs and puppies as a puppy and he is still that way, it did not just go away with maturity. My second mal, well part of the reason he was given to me at 7 months was he showed some mild environmental sensitivity as a pup. Not very obvious but because the breeder knows what he is doing he saw it.......well this mal is still that way today, and if anything, it's worse as an adult than as a puppy. 

Let's re-visit this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/317490-what-age-can-you-tell.html#post4017426

Hate to pick people out but Cliff you said you in your first post there...."I can usually tell by 3-7 months if the dog is confident, resilient,......" 
Based on the OPs post I would not call that confidence. Let's pretend for a second that the OP had said the pup acted the same way with new people instead of other dogs......would the responses here be the same? 

Maybe I am crazy or something but, I would not purchase a puppy who was cowering away from people OR other dogs--their own species! Maybe I am too jaded at this point. 

Being a little bit unsure the first or second time as a puppy I think is totally fine.....but hiding behind the owners legs because another of their own species is near is just not a good sign for me for the future. 

Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand all this. By no means am I saying the owner should get rid of the puppy, throw away all thoughts of schutzhund, etc but I think that implying that this puppy won't be fearful of other dogs as an adult if you just "let her grow up" is a bit of a stretch.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When pups are young they can't decipher properly what may be a threat and what may not be...maturity helps in that judgement. Though a confident pup doesn't usually see much of anything as a threat. 
I wouldn't isolate the puppy away from other dogs or people but work on my management of situations so the pup can be neutral....clubs are a good place for this as most club members know how to act vs the JQP's encountered out and about in settings that aren't structured.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

wolfmanusf said:


> I don't think it is going to hurt anything by taking your dog to a schutzhund club. Judging only from your description, it sounds like there may be some temperament issues, that may manifest itself into aggression later on down the line. Schutzhund may be a good outlet, letting him/her learn to channel that aggression. Ultimately, schutzhund should make you a better trainer and better able to read your dog and any future dogs you may have.
> 
> Good Luck, hope everything works out how you want it.


Agree. The dog could have some issues but...no dog is perfect. A lot of dogs at a SchH club have their own issues. SchH is not like a team sport with multiple dogs anyway. She is way too young to be deciding whether or not she can do IPO. Heck, a lot of people ask themselves that question for years, lol, even title and are still wondering "is this really THE dog?"

She may actually do better because you can channel her drives and energy into something that will give her confidence in herself and give you more confidence as a handler. She's so young, there's really no reason to write her off at this age (nor just assume the problem will go away). She doesn't need to be doing protection right now, especially not the "puppy circles" for ragwork if she's upset by the other dogs. Work her on her own and start working her around other dogs again once she is showing you the picture you want to see. There's no point in trying to train something like obedience or protection while the dog is already in a state of mind of fear or wariness because of other dogs around. You want your dog to show drive, power, confidence when she is working so get that *first* and then work on closing the gap with other dogs around.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This was asked.

"There are several posters here who are saying .....let the puppy be a puppy, too young to worry about this stuff, etc but I guess I have an issue with this. Is it not true that most puppies, with regard to their core temperament, will show you who they are at a young age."

The one criticism that was made in an indepth interview with Jan Koxx and Roger Peeters was pushing dogs too young too fast , and they weren't even talking about dogs this young ! Trainers: Roger peeters & jan kokx - General Training Articles - Specialist Canines

"She just has an extreme fears other dogs. I try to socialize her around other dogs and puppys, but it seems to be making things worse."

Then stop . The dog is telling you , not now . Take away the stressor , find and develop other strengths and then socialize the dog around other dogs , but properly , when the dog can . 13 weeks is a vulnerable time period . The dog knows it has no defenses and feels vulnerable. Dogs doing aggression on a field are not neutral . Stop. Nothing is gained , damage can be done.


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## Colie CVT (Nov 10, 2013)

I agree with Carmen. If it is too much for her right now, don't worry about socializing her with other dogs. Work on getting her to focus with you, to be engaged with you, so that when she feels more confident about your bond, when you are out and see a dog in the distance (because you will want to start from a distance) you can get her to focus on you and reward her for ignoring the dog. 

You don't want her getting into that habit when she is so young. It is much harder to get rid of it later on when you want to be out and enjoying doing really anything with her. My young male was getting leash reactive, and I hadn't been really stopping it when I should have. Thankfully he's not so invested in fending off strange dogs that I can't get him to come and just walk away from other dogs. It has been a lot of work and it still is, but he can ignore dogs when we are invested in something. Playing frisbee, swimming, things that he loves are much more interesting and they go away if he is distracted. 

She is still a baby and hitting that first fear stage. You really want to be certain not to accidentally make something scary to her and have to deal with what comes out of it. It took years for me to get my golden to decide that people weren't a bad thing. And I still don't know what the trigger that started all of that was.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@ugavet.....I have no problem with your question....lol. I can usually tell at 3-7 months if a puppy is bold and confident, but that doesn't mean that all good representatives of the breed are bold and confident at this age. Furthermore, I really don't have enough information about the puppy to determine that she won't become a sound aloof adult. I have seen many dogs with strong defense drives that were similar to this as a puppy. They often became very aloof as adults( I think that is part of standard ), and very good working dogs. Also, folks are putting far too much emphasis on her behavior towards other dogs at this point in her life. That can also recede with maturity, and training, and boundaries. I don't require my dogs to be friendly with dogs outside their pack, like I do with people. 
This pup could have some temperament issues, and it also could not.....I am not knowledgable enough to make that assessment based on so little information, especially in reference to behavior when seeing other dogs. 
I have six month puppy right now that up until a month ago, was always raising its hackles when meeting new stimuli or animals....many would think weak nerves, now at six months I very seldom see the behavior....as for the nerve strength.....as good as any I have had in recent years. More natural instincts and a little less Labrador type temperament .....so anyway that was basis of my post.....I could be way off base though.


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> @ugavet.....I have no problem with your question....lol. I can usually tell at 3-7 months if a puppy is bold and confident, but that doesn't mean that all good representatives of the breed are bold and confident at this age. Furthermore, I really don't have enough information about the puppy to determine that she won't become a sound aloof adult. I have seen many dogs with strong defense drives that were similar to this as a puppy. They often became very aloof as adults( I think that is part of standard ), and very good working dogs. Also, folks are putting far too much emphasis on her behavior towards other dogs at this point in her life. That can also recede with maturity, and training, and boundaries. I don't require my dogs to be friendly with dogs outside their pack, like I do with people.
> This pup could have some temperament issues, and it also could not.....I am not knowledgable enough to make that assessment based on so little information, especially in reference to behavior when seeing other dogs.
> I have six month puppy right now that up until a month ago, was always raising its hackles when meeting new stimuli or animals....many would think weak nerves, now at six months I very seldom see the behavior....as for the nerve strength.....as good as any I have had in recent years. More natural instincts and a little less Labrador type temperament .....so anyway that was basis of my post.....I could be way off base though.


I knew you would not 
Just knowing what I do now.....that what my last puppy (Malinois but still) showed me was, he still is as an adult. He did the exact same things the OPs puppy Is doing, and he most certainly did not grow out of it. His parents were not like that and neither were his other litter mates. He LOVED people as a puppy, and even when we had a situation where a bad cascade of events made him go through a fearful stage (my fault!) he came out of it as an adult being totally fine around people/still loving them. No environmental/noise issues, his overall temperament is very good. I am all for letting puppies grow up and not forcing things, but I just think it's important for the OP to realize that there's a decent chance this may not change, so not to be disappointed or think it's weird if it doesn't. 

For the record, I did not participate in "puppy rings" or anything else young puppy "bite work" related in schutzhund, I always just waited until they were 7-8 months or older. Never felt it was necessary. 

Again I'll say that I'm not recommending the OP not do whatever sport he/she wants, like I said, I think my dog would be fine doing schutzhund because yes all dogs have SOME issue like someone else said; none are perfect. But I doubt he could hold it together enough to be really competitive.


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I right away knew my 9-week old boy was fine with big, loud equipment and noises. Appeared that after I had him a month that he was great with all kinds of people. After having him a month, apparent that there was some sort of problem with other dogs in public.

Problems can and do resolve themselves, but don't always count on it. I started right away doing engagement and confidence building activities each day which were appropriate for a young puppy. I actively addressed the issue for the stage of development of my dog. I did not push him, instead played "games" with him.

At 10 months that pays off while now appropriately address dog reactivity in a Reactive Rover class. I have great engagement and eye contact and my dog is more mature.


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## Katy1985 (Nov 16, 2013)

Checkout caninepurpose.com . They are in Loomis,Ca. Weston has been working with my 8 mos old and I. He is a helper in the local schutzhund club. He does all sorts of training as the name of his website says. 
Your dog sounds like mine was when she was younger. Puppy class was a disaster. She was a snapping, snarling nasty little thing. Thinking it was fear based, the trainer put a divider between her and the other puppies. That was she could watch but not get trampled. (she was tiny) She was 12 weeks old. 2 weeks later the divider was removed and we transitioned into getting to know how to behave and being comfortable it was a very small class. We have slowly worked on getting her around people and dogs, though not forced to interact. We went to the local park where there were kids playing t-ball etc, just to get her comfortable. There were dogs around but we kept far away and just played with her , gave treats. I also did a gsd playgroup with another member of this board who has a gsd of the same age. We have worked on confidence and engagement. Taking our time. She is turning into a great dog. She gets along with most dogs and people. She loves to hike, swims wants to do everything all the time. We just took our time and stressed enjoying puppy life with short bursts of training 5-15 minutes each. Weston is big on building engagement. Find what motivates them and use that. My dog will do anything for a tug session. As time goes on we will do what she seems to enjoy regarding dog sports etc. I wanted to take her into a VA hospital as a comfort dog but that is a long way off if ever do to her present temperament though I think when she is an older dog it will be fine. She is very brave in outdoor environments, we always have to keep an eye on her to keep her out of trouble. Oh, I am very careful with her regarding ruining the progress we have made. I keep her away from any dog that might bully on her, every dogpark or neighborhood has one. 
Mspiker03 also goes to Weston she might pipe in, he is busy these days, I believe his wife also does training, I know she trials in schutzhund , just check out their website. We go for occasional private lessons. Then work on what he has suggested.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

you might also want to check out some books and videos by Dr. Sophia Yin-they might be helpful to you


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Many today don't understand the word aloof, or realize that it is part of the standard, therefore something that is positive in and of itself. ( not sure that Malinois have aloof in their standard).... Anyway, many today think that all good GS as puppies should come running to everyone outside their pack with tail wagging, , anyway folks carry on.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Very good point Cliff. :thumbup:


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## ugavet2012 (Apr 15, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Many today don't understand the word aloof, or realize that it is part of the standard, therefore something that is positive in and of itself. ( not sure that Malinois have aloof in their standard).... Anyway, many today think that all good GS as puppies should come running to everyone outside their pack with tail wagging, , anyway folks carry on.


Not sure if this was a reply to me, because I agree with you , my point was in my last post to show *my dog* that acted like the OPs has a good overall temperament, it's just that one problem that he never grew out of. I do not care if aloof is in the standard for his breed, because I enjoy him like he is, he is really such a cool dog and everyone loves him  
my GSD is aloof except with children and I enjoy that too  one reason I like that breed


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

My reply was not specifically to you UGA, but to general public. Many people today think" good nerves and correct temperament "is lab friendly, bold and confident, with high prey drive, and never show aggression based on human values.


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