# Hold and bark progession & other vids



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Just thought I'd share some clips of my young dog and the progression of his hold and bark. We started working on this after the holidays in February it's been going really well. He is 18 months and more of a prey/sporty dog but hopefully you can tell in the last session his barking has finally started to change and he's beginning to get more serious. He's a really fun dog. We're doing our BH either April or May (depending on which club I want, I am in the process of changing clubs) and possibly his SchH1 at the club fall trial if things work out with the new club. He's a really fun dog to train! Feel free to comment/critique....






















He also bites bad buys!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think , you have a little age factor showing up. 18 months is very young and he is just now coming into the time when he is developing social aggression. Jason does a pretty good job of holding STILL, in the last video. For me, this is part of the recipe for good barking. Moving and bobbing your head, only makes the dog think about biting and the bark will suffer. Having said that. I think Jason should put up a bigger fight once the bite comes. This exercise is not about "rewarding" the dog with a grip. It is about aggression and fight drive. The dogs like to fight, so fight with them. I'm not saying beat them up, you have to reinforce the power when they bring it.... but don't be there lulling them to sleep. Once you show the dog that the hold and bark leads to a fight with the helper, the bark becomes quite good and it happens quickly. The reason there are so many people with dogs who don't bark well, is because the helper doesn't give them a reason to. Sure, it has to do with presence when you are standing there but if you have that and then are a rag doll when the bite comes, you won't get good barking. The dog needs to feel like he maybe has a tiger by the tail. Then he will bring more to all of the work. Make it more exciting for him and you will see what I mean. I would also use the line again to stop the bumping. You do not want his answer to working in aggression to be bumping the helper. You want it to be BARKING. You are losing "air" when you allow that. That's my take on it. 

Certainly is not bad, just saying it can get much better, I can see that ability in the dog even on a video. Some will come with more age, so, it is an all in good time situation but the drive level needs to be higher.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

More fighting, holding still in the blind, longer barking....got it, thanks. The videos may be a bit misleading as they are edited mainly for myself to see the guarding since I have trouble gauging what's really going on always behind behind the dog. Most of the time where the video cuts out is not when the sleeve is slipped but we can certainly include more fighting going forward.

I was amazed at the difference in the tone of the barking from one day to the next. I let him try the suit the day before (that last video shows just the bites but the majority of that session was him fighting the guy in the suit and I think he does a pretty good job letting a young dog "fight" him and letting the dog know he's winning without totally overpowering the dog). Maybe that helped? I don't know. I certainly don't want to confuse him especially at this age but also believe that there's no reason a half decent dog can't do various types of protection at the same time and not be a better dog overall.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I actually do think the bitesuit work had something to do with it but you will need to be a little careful with that.

Most people are offering a big prey grip there after the barking. With a dog working too much on that side of things, there is not a good reason for doing that nor is it helpful. IF the dog comes in with a great deal of seriousness and aggression, then yes, that might be the exact correct thing to do. If they come in flat and not in drive, besides considering if the dog is ready for the hold and bark, I will attack them directly. No pop of the sleeve, an attack. Now, whether Pan is ready for that, I don't know. You have to think that over. I think I see some fight in that bite but this is video and I KNOW how limited video is. Just saying.... and something to keep in mind later. 
Also, you do not always have to do hold and bark exercises in the blind. Find a place that is different, something that disturbs him a bit and you will see the fight come up. Changing things up is GOOD for the dogs. They like new stuff, they like new fields and new helpers and new places. Make it fun for your dog.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I also do suit work with my dogs so I don't think it confuses them as long as you are careful in how you do it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Anne and I posted at the same time.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If I had to wager a guess in my limited experience I would say we are still waiting on some maturity. I certainly don't think he'd back out of a direct attack but I don't know that it would have the desired effect yet. Again this is all new to me especially with this dog (Nikon is so, so different and likely will work flat as a pancake UNLESS you give him a direct attack here and there) but I think up until recently most of his power and fight came mainly out of frustration not actual aggression if that makes sense?


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

You will have to know what you guys think he can handle. I just know that most dogs, especially nowadays, can handle FAR more than they are seeing from the "bad guy". Usually what they find in that blind is rather similar to what Cadaver dogs are looking for. 

I think Jason can still make it much more exciting and put up a bigger struggle while turned away from the dog etc. Having said that, I notice he is doing a little driving and threatening the dog with the ....uhhh...chuck it? 
Anyway, if you are going to threaten the dog, then put a little attitude behind it. Whatever level that is Jason will have to know. Just kind of carrying him through the motions is accomplishing nothing. That hand under his jaw kind of makes him a little peeved also, so, he is getting some pressure here. A little more as he moves on, ( done correctly), will only make things better. 
If he can handle seeing the stick, chuck it or whatever else you want to use, for a few seconds, he can handle a little attitude along with it.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Oh...and BTW, in case it seems like I am picking on Jason, I am not. I will wait until I meet him in person to do that...hehehe.....
I am suggesting this stuff because I think he can do it. If I didn't think he had the ability, I would not suggest it. No pressure though Jason...just don't blow it.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Anne, I really enjoy reading your posts. They are very insightful!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Vandal said:


> Oh...and BTW, in case it seems like I am picking on Jason, I am not. I will wait until I meet him in person to do that...hehehe.....
> I am suggesting this stuff because I think he can do it. If I didn't think he had the ability, I would not suggest it. No pressure though Jason...just don't blow it.


Oh we don't think that at all. I talked to him tonight and I agreed to jot down the suggestions (couldn't remember them all and Lisa has also offered some good advice privately). We're all learning together and we can't learn a thing if we sit on our hands. Also I figure you guys wouldn't even bother saying anything at all if we looked totally hopeless!


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Oh we don't think that at all. I talked to him tonight and I agreed to jot down the suggestions (couldn't remember them all and Lisa has also offered some good advice privately). We're all learning together and we can't learn a thing if we sit on our hands. Also I figure you guys wouldn't even bother saying anything at all if we looked totally hopeless!


Absolutely! I appreciate all the pointers, ideas, and criticisms! It's the only way to get better. Well, that and convincing people to let you learn on the job with their dogs. Thanks Lies!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm printing out a bulleted list!


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