# To be Alpha I need to ignore and not let my dog touch me?



## Zenkai

Sup guys,

I had a trainer come over yesterday to help me with my dogs dog aggression. His site says hes all positive reinforcement but of course he uses a choke chain.

Anyways, he says my dog is dominant and think hes the alpha. Which I'm sure is right sine I've been babying and spoiling him. The first things he has me doing to transition myself into the pack leader role is to never pet him for nothing, ignore all attempts to get attention (by crossing arms and turning away), never let him lay against or on me (push him away then cross arms and turn away). Stop free feeding (he missed a meal the day before and has now missed the first meal of the day and only ate about a cup and a half at dinner).

He says that the dog reactivity is a result of him being in the pack leader position and he thinks he needs to protect me. Once I've asserted myself as pack leader he will stop doing it.

Today since I've been ignoring him hes been really unruly. Jumping on the couch and me to get my attention. Then I have to correct him by pushing him off the couch or me negating the fact that I'm supposed to be ignoring his attempts at attention, since then I am giving him negative attention.

He doesn't have me doing anything for the walks yet since he hasn't shown me how to use the collar. The only other things he has me doing is training him to sit with a hand signal and the "watch" command for focus.

I'm just really frustrated since he doesn't seem to be getting anything and getting worse. Other then when I have treats and were training the sit and watch. And when hes not being unruly hes just laying there looking depressed. I just feel like now if I'm not ignoring him I'm correcting him. And I feel bad that I'm doing that with hardly any praise. I guess I'm just used to praising him more.

I guess I'm just looking for input on this way of training. What do you guys think?


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## BowWowMeow

Have you read about NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free)? It sounds like that's what he is trying to get you to do with your dog. That is a great program and for a dog who has had a lot of freedom it can be hard at first but it works really well to help you establish yourself as a confident, fair and kind leader. 

I wouldn't stop using treats though to get the behaviors you want. Eventually you can fade those out but he should be getting some sort of reward for doing the behaviors you want from him. 

Also, the trainer is seriously telling you to use a choke chain for a dog reactive dog? 

And I haven't seen dog reactivity go away just with putting boundaries and leadership in place. That takes a lot more. 

Have you read the book Control Unleashed? I think that would be a good one for you and your dog.

p.s.: the alpha thing is over-rated. You want to be a calm, confident and fair LEADER, not a dominator.


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## selzer

I do not think that anything your trainer is suggesting will hurt your dog. I am not a fan of the dominance and alpha thinking, but it is true that the human NEEDS to be the leader. If the dog is taking the best spots and determining who goes where, who gets pets first, then that isn't a positive place to be.

The ignore the dog is a transition thing, you spend a couple of days adjusting who is who in the pack order and that means starting with a clean slate so to speak. All the stuff you have allowed your dog to get away with needs to stop, and the dog needs to realize that he needs to comply with certain behaviors to get praise. Over the top praise will get the dog hyped up. It will be easier if you tone it down a little.

Praise is not going to go away forever, but your dog will have to work for praise. Ignoring the dog will not be forever, but once you are established as a good leader, and the dog's behavior improves, some of this can be relaxed a little. 

Think of it this way, who do dogs gravitate to, the people who come in and immediately go for the dog and pay attention to the dog, or the people who pretty much ignore the dog? A calm person who acts like the dog isn't even there is a person the dog will trust a lot quicker than someone who gets all excited and tries to engage the dog. This dog is yours, buy you want the dog to think of you as the person who he trusts, and accepts as the leader, and this may help you to get there.

So as long as what this trainer is suggesting does not seem like it is going to hurt the dog, I think you should give it a fair shot. Try it for a month or two and mark your progress.


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## spiritsmom

I don't like that method of training. The only thing I agree with is no free feeding. I feed my dogs 2 meals and they eat it all right then and there. No picking allowed or it gets picked up till the next meal. My dogs are my companions and friends so of course I pet them freely and I don't care if they lean against me - I don't associate that with "dominance". I use tons of treats and praise to show them what I WANT. I use redirection or I take something away when they do something I DON'T want. I use positive reinforcement and negative punishment. What's the point of always correcting your dog? That's no fun for anyone. You can visit Dog Star Daily to get a feel for the way I train. I've done the old choker collar method and I think there are better methods to be used.


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## msvette2u

This is an excellent way to show your dog you are the leader.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong (click the link)


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## middleofnowhere

Bill Campbell calls it "Earn to Learn" -- And he starts by totally ignoring the dog for a week. That is the dog gets food, water, let out to eliminate. That's all. The dog gets no eye contact, no pets, no treats - shunned. I used this for about three days when a pup was being pushy - total turn around. 

If your dog is abusing his/her privileges (and it sounds like the OP's dog was) then the hard core intro to NILIF is appropriate. And the continued work as in "you give me the behavior I want, I'll give you a reward/what you want" is very useful.

The only thing the trainer recommended that I wouldn't do with the dog is use a choke chain collar.


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## MaggieRoseLee

msvette2u said:


> This is an excellent way to show your dog you are the leader.
> 
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong (click the link)


That's a great link.

Another book I'd recommend that has easy things to do that make a HUGE difference to the dog is in a book called 'The Dog Listener' by Jan Fennell. 

dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding





 
I am also NOT a fan of the concept of Alpha and dominance theory, though I do think I need to be the leader in my dogs world. Jan Fennell's book shows ways to get the leadership role in ways DOGS understand (rather than the ways we humans THINK a dog understands) and most of them are small changes for us that make a huge difference to a dog. NOT about obedience training either. Behavioral stuff we can start up around the house.


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## Zenkai

Thanks for the info guys, great stuff!

The trainer comes again this next Sunday. That's when were actually going to walk by dogs. I'm afraid of whats going to happen, especially since Niko (my dog) will be on the choke chain.

The trainer uses it much like a prong in that he pops it. His explanation of how it works was the exact thing I've read on prong collars. He says the "zip" sound of the chain combined with the pop works the same way as a prong, but for some reason he doesn't like the prong.

When he was handling Niko yesterday it worked extremely well. And Niko learned everything he was asked of in a remarkable amount of speed. I was glad since that meant little corrections. The only thing he needed more corrections on was heel, which I felt bad about because I've already taught him the position on the right side, while the trainer refuses to let him be there even though I told him he has been started in training on the right. So during our walks today I taught him to go for the left. I can only get him to initially go there though, not an actual heel. But still I want to set him up for success next Sunday.

It's going to be interesting. The main reason I called the trainer is for the dog aggression as I think I can do fine with everything else. So hopefully there is improvement.

Thanks again guys. I will read the info and look into the book as well.


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## cliffson1

Listen to your trainer....if when the trainer walks the dog on leash he responds very well, then pay attention. I use the fur saver on my dog, but have also used prong and choke chains in the past. The tool isn't bad, the application of the tool is what is bad. I doubt very seriously if using a choke chain is going to be detrimental if you use it the way you say he uses it effectively. If you were the type to abuse a choke chain, you probably wouldn't be in this situation in first place. Trust your trainer, if they demonstrate responsiveness from your dog with no I'll effects. By your own post you allude you created some of this by spoiling your dog....so to correct this we must leave much of the mindset that got you there....trust your trainer....don't second guess them unless they are not effective or are blatantly abusive.jmo


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## Castlemaid

I also agree with what your trainer has you doing - it is normal for your dog to get worse at first, as he is rebelling against the change in rules and routine. Part of his misbehaviour is because he is desperately looking for more leadership and boundaries from you. It is important that you stay consistent with what you are doing to give the clear message that boundaries and rules are stable and non-negotiable. He doesn't yet trust the new rules you are implementing, because in the past, he couldn not as there was no consistency, and with a little bit of pushing, they fell apart. So he is testing them to make sure that this time, they are for real. So show him that they are for real, no matter how much he tries to test them. 

Once he finds his place in the household, you will end up with a much happier and more relaxed dog who is happy to defer to you.


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## martemchik

I don't think anything your trainer is doing is incorrect. A prong collar has shown to amp up reactive dogs at times when they are reacting so its usually not recommended. A choke chain is different, I can tell you that even when used properly my dog doesn't react the same way to a correction with a choke that he does with a prong. It takes longer and doesn't cause the same affect in my opinion.

The stuff he's telling you to do is all correct. Touching in the dog world is affection, it's reinforcement of whatever the dog is doing. If they lean on you in front of others, they are showing them that you are theirs, and it should be the other way around. This is something that has to be done since you already have a problem dog. This isn't something you have to do with dogs if they are balanced (like the poster that said they allow their dogs to lean on them). It's different if you can control your dog and they aren't reactive, you can allow them freedoms that dogs like OP's shouldn't have.

Keep working on what the trainer is telling you to do...sounds like he/she knows what they're doing. This is also a very long process, so don't be discouraged if it takes some time.


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## Blanketback

I think the trainer hasn't done a very good job of explaining things to you. When you read the links others have posted, you'll probably start to understand things alot better. That's half the trouble right there.

One thing that jumped out at me is that you're pushing your dog off the couch. IMO, this will only encourage your dog to get up on the couch because dogs really like physical contact. I'd jump up too, just for the sheer fun of you coming along and us having a little mini-wrestling session to get me off, lol. 

Does your dog have a nice bed near the couch? You can teach him to go to his bed, and praise/treat him when he does. Whatever he's doing that you don't like, pick the behavior that you'd like to see instead, and this is what you ask for and reward for.

Good luck - I'm glad you have a trainer to help you get your dog under control. Spoiling them is bad for them, and down the road it will be so much nicer to have a well-behaved dog that you can take anywhere with you instead of one that's left at home all the time.


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## Freestep

Zenkai said:


> I'm just really frustrated since he doesn't seem to be getting anything and getting worse. Other then when I have treats and were training the sit and watch. And when hes not being unruly hes just laying there looking depressed. I just feel like now if I'm not ignoring him I'm correcting him. And I feel bad that I'm doing that with hardly any praise. I guess I'm just used to praising him more.


And that is exactly how you got into the predicament you are in, yes? By feeling sorry for the dog and giving him praise that he hasn't earned, you've created a monster! "Feeling bad" for him serves no purpose at all and can actually be counterproductive. This is "tough love".

He will get worse at first. That's part of the process. You've probably let him get away with murder, and now suddenly you're not, and naturally he's going to say "WTF?" and try even harder to get his way. It sounds like your trainer is using the NILIF (Nothing in Life is Free) approach, which really does work for spoiled, domineering dogs.

This is about competent leadership, controlling resources, and rewarding ONLY appropriate behavior. The dog must now learn that he has to earn what he wants--food, play, affection. So far, you've been letting him control the relationship by giving him whatever he wants, whenever he wants it, and not drawing limits and boundaries to behavior. 

Once he realizes that GOOD behavior will earn him what he wants, you should begin to see a change for the better, but it's a process and takes time. Do not back down and do not give up. The fact that he resents this stage of training means you are making an impression on him, and that is good. Don't worry if he acts "depressed" for now. He will soon learn how to win back your affections, and then you will start making strides in the right direction. Listen to your trainer.

I personally prefer a prong collar to a choke, because it's difficult for an inexperienced person to get the timing and the pressure right with a choke chain, but it's a tool just like any other tool--if you use it correctly, it should work to your advantage.


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## codmaster

BowWowMeow said:


> ..................Also, the trainer is seriously telling you to use a choke chain for a dog reactive dog?
> 
> p.s.: the alpha thing is over-rated. You want to be a calm, confident and fair LEADER, not a dominator.


 
We had a similar situation with our now 4.5yo male GSD. After we got him i had a couple of knee replacement ops and was unable to do any training for some considerable chunks of time. This is with a dog whose behaviorist called "the most self confident dog that she had ever seen!". 

And to make matters even worse - the OB club whose classes I attended and eventually joined was one whose trainers all preached a positive only approach with very very little or no corrections - just praise when he did something right and essentially ignore any bad behavior. Does not work with some dogs! (Mine especially!)

Since then we have had a couple of meeting of the minds and now Baron is MUCH better behaved.

BTW, if a LEADER tells you to do something, do you have to do it? Or can you treat the request as a request, not a command?


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## Zenkai

Thanks guys. I've been sticking to it. The only time I don't ignore him is when he wants to go outside to potty of course.

I was wondering about the couch thing. Cause I did the turn away and he was just like "ok I'll just do this!" and jumped on the couch. Then he's getting what he wants even though its negative attention. I guess I can stop pushing and just motion for him to get off the couch?


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## selzer

Choke chains are a simple, cheap, effective training collar. It was the training collar we all used back in the day. I have never seen a dog injured by a choke chain, that I knew about. 

Yes, If you put it on backwards and the dog drags you choking all the way. If you do not pop and release, but let the dog pull the collar tight, if you hold the dog by the collar so that 2 or more legs cannot reach the ground, if you beat the dog with the collar, then you are liable to injure the dog. 

Of course that could certainly be said of prong collars as well.

The thing about the prong is that it is quicker to see results, and will self-correct. However, in my opinion, a timid or soft dog might be shut down by the correction a prong can provide, while a determined dog might ignore a normal correction of prong and I think it can increase the amount of compulsive training needed with a dog unnecessarily. For a dog reactive dog, the prong may increase the dog's reactivity, amp them or, or increase the nervousness. 

A choke chain really doesn't provide much of a correction. But it does provide an sound and feeling that can queue a dog to pay attention. I think it takes more to master the proper use of a choke chain.


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## selzer

Zenkai said:


> Thanks guys. I've been sticking to it. The only time I don't ignore him is when he wants to go outside to potty of course.
> 
> I was wondering about the couch thing. Cause I did the turn away and he was just like "ok I'll just do this!" and jumped on the couch. Then he's getting what he wants even though its negative attention. I guess I can stop pushing and just motion for him to get off the couch?


A well-placed baby gate, might limit access to the couch while you are going through the transition period.


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## codmaster

Zenkai said:


> Thanks guys. I've been sticking to it. The only time I don't ignore him is when he wants to go outside to potty of course.
> 
> I was wondering about the couch thing. Cause I did the turn away and he was just like "ok I'll just do this!" and jumped on the couch. Then he's getting what he wants even though its negative attention. I guess I can stop pushing and just motion for him to get off the couch?


 
If he has a collar (any kind) and a tab leash on there is nothing wrong with a command and a small correction to remind him tat he is not allowed on the couch, I.E. "OFF" or whatever verbal command that you use. As soon as he is in the proper position then "GOOD BOY".

I agree that I would definetly not just use a physical push to move him around. We tried that with our dog and he really did think that we were playing and would actually give us a play bow and LEAP back at us!

Funny as heck, but not so good training!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Bear L

When my dog was young, I used the slip lead to pop her when she does something bad. I left the slip lead on her. The dog doesn't listen to "ah ah" or "no" and redirection... well.. unless it's food it will not work. Even with food it only last as long as I'm feeding it to her. She has high threshold for corrections. It was a tool I used and that helped. For example, if I want her to stop playing with my other dog, I say "leave it" and she ignores me. I then pop her, she stops. Done enough time, she will listen to the "leave it" without a pop. For the couch, if you don't want to touch her and she doesn't get off, if it were my dog, I'd pop her off the couch and if my dog were to get back on right away... the crazy lady in me will come out and she'll be led to the crate for a time out. I'd also teach her a command like "off."


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## selzer

Bear L said:


> When my dog was young, I used the slip lead to pop her when she does something bad. I left the slip lead on her. The dog doesn't listen to "ah ah" or "no" and redirection... well.. unless it's food it will not work. Even with food it only last as long as I'm feeding it to her. She has high threshold for corrections. It was a tool I used and that helped. For example, if I want her to stop playing with my other dog, I say "leave it" and she ignores me. I then pop her, she stops. Done enough time, she will listen to the "leave it" without a pop. For the couch, if you don't want to touch her and she doesn't get off, if it were my dog, I'd pop her off the couch and if my dog were to get back on right away... the crazy lady in me will come out and she'll be led to the crate for a time out. I'd also teach her a command like "off."


First of all, I would not leave a training collar on a dog unless I am actively training the dog. Once upon a time with my first GSD, I left the choke chain on the dog, as all the pictures showed GSDs with their chokers or fur savers on, and I didn't think another thing of it. He fell asleep on the porch which had decking for flooring and the ring fell through and he woke up stuck to the floor. He frantically twisted himself around enough times to choke off all his breath before emitting a strangled cry that I heard in the house. He would have died that day if I was not right there.

I think the issue with the couch is that the OP is supposed to be ignoring the dog. Obviously, you do not want the dog to get away with behaviors he is not allowed to do while you are in the active ignore period. I would suggest limiting access to premium areas of the house until he has earned the privilege of being in that room. Certainly until after you are not ignoring and you can tell the dog OFF! 

As for the crazy lady coming out -- that is really bad to have happen when you are trying to establish that you are the leader. A leader does not lose their cool and act crazy. A leader is calm and deals with stuff without losing their temper and getting angry. 

And lastly, the crate should be a good place, not a place for time outs for doing a bad thing. Sometimes we have to leave a dog in a crate for their protection or while we have people in the house that are afraid of dogs. Making the crate a punishment means that using a crate for non-punishment reasons will be confusing to the dog, and be harder to accomplish. Dogs should have no problem going into their crates and spending time in there.


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## Bear L

selzer said:


> First of all, I would not leave a training collar on a dog unless I am actively training the dog. Once upon a time with my first GSD, I left the choke chain on the dog, as all the pictures showed GSDs with their chokers or fur savers on, and I didn't think another thing of it. He fell asleep on the porch which had decking for flooring and the ring fell through and he woke up stuck to the floor. He frantically twisted himself around enough times to choke off all his breath before emitting a strangled cry that I heard in the house. He would have died that day if I was not right there.
> 
> I think the issue with the couch is that the OP is supposed to be ignoring the dog. Obviously, you do not want the dog to get away with behaviors he is not allowed to do while you are in the active ignore period. I would suggest limiting access to premium areas of the house until he has earned the privilege of being in that room. Certainly until after you are not ignoring and you can tell the dog OFF!
> 
> As for the crazy lady coming out -- that is really bad to have happen when you are trying to establish that you are the leader. A leader does not lose their cool and act crazy. A leader is calm and deals with stuff without losing their temper and getting angry.
> 
> And lastly, the crate should be a good place, not a place for time outs for doing a bad thing. Sometimes we have to leave a dog in a crate for their protection or while we have people in the house that are afraid of dogs. Making the crate a punishment means that using a crate for non-punishment reasons will be confusing to the dog, and be harder to accomplish. Dogs should have no problem going into their crates and spending time in there.


My dog loves her crate. She goes in there willingly still and will do so on her own. I did it many times for time outs, such as when she won't stop biting or won't settle. Nowadays, she gets put away when she won't stop barking. The crazy lady... I didn't describe what that means, but I won't here since humor may be interpreted the wrong way over the internet. As for the slip lead, she was a puppy, she was with me all the time when the lead is on. She's always under training, in my opinion, in her earlier years when she's with me. It was also advised by my trainer who I see as highly qualified.


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## 2staffi

*It's not what you associate.*



spiritsmom said:


> I don't associate that with "dominance".


Unfortunately it is not what you associate with dominance, it is what your dog associates with dominance.


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## roxywoo

Does any one have the same problem as me with their German Shepard, my oldest is 30 months old and the other is 17 months . I have found that when the young one ignores my recall the other one charges at her and knocks her over and keeps on until she crys.any ideas how to stop this behaviour ?


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## selzer

roxywoo said:


> Does any one have the same problem as me with their German Shepard, my oldest is 30 months old and the other is 17 months . I have found that when the young one ignores my recall the other one charges at her and knocks her over and keeps on until she crys.any ideas how to stop this behaviour ?


 1. You need your own thread.

2. If both of your dogs are females, you are going to be in trouble if you do not get a handle on this NOW. 

3. Why are you allowing a dog to ignore a recall? Recall is a life skill. If you let your dog believe it is optional, then when your dog is in deep doo doo, and you need him to get to you fast, she will most likely not come and may lose her life. You need to change the word from COME to HERE or vice versa, and start all over on training the command. Do it on lead, and graduate to a long lead. This is not optional. Say it once and then help your dog to complete the command, and then praise. Always follow through with this one.

Your older dog does not respect you as the leader, otherwise you could tell her to stop and she would. She might not do that in the first place. But as she is, it is only going to get worse between the two and you are going to have blood. At that point, they may never be ok to leave together.

You need to become a leader. You need to learn how to train your dogs by doing it every day. You probably need to separate them, and work with both separately, exercise both separately, play with both separately. 

Good luck.


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