# Aggression at Dog Show



## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

Today I was a spectator with my dog at a conformation dog show which hosted by South Metro Atlanta Schutzhund Club. I would like to share my experience and get some feedback because I am concerned.

Background first. I have socialized my dog when she was a puppy by taking her to grocery stores, hardware stores, local high school, and try to encourage people to pet her on walks as well. No problems. My dog has gone to obedience classes and was very well behaved there. 

I took my dog to this place to meet somebody to get an evaluation. Anyway while attending this show my dog is taking it in rather well which made me very happy. No barking, just sniffing hands of strangers and playing with other dogs. I was standing with my dog in a down position with a slack leash when an older lady runs past me within 2-3 feet. My dog suddenly shows aggression towards her and I have been requested to move back further away from the ring by another woman and to keep my dog under control. I complied and was very embarassed about the situation and corrected the dog. Fifteen minutes later, the same thing happens again. My dog was in a down position acting very calm and observing. The same lady told me to keep my dog in control or I had to leave. I opted to leave.

I am very unhappy with what happened. Am I at fault or was the lady just plain rude? My dog had to deal with rain, which she hates, endured a 1 1/2 hour car ride, and was put into a new environment. 

Now that I am home, I wish I had spoken to the lady and explained my situation. Not sure if it would have been nice or not at the time. lol. How is a dog supposed to learn how to cope with attending these type of shows if there is no compasson from the other attendees? I believe most of these show dogs start at a young age so they are used to it, but my dog is almost two. I did keep my distance from others while watching because this was new, but they didn't seem to think to do the same.



Feedback please.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DHau
> I am very unhappy with what happened. Am I at fault or was the lady just plain rude? My dog had to deal with rain, which she hates, endured a 1 1/2 hour car ride, and was put into a new environment.


of course i can't speak for the womans tone because i was not present, but in just asking you to control your dog... and after the 2nd time, control or leave - i don't think it was rude. its her job (?) to keep everyone safe and help make it a positive experience for others involved. i also don't think its a matter of fault... you seem genuinely surprised by your dogs behavior... but now knowing how she deals with rain, long car rides, and new environments, extra precautions will need to be made in the future. if the situation repeats and the aggressive behavior escalates - then i'd say its an issue of fault.

its a learning experience... i'd take it all in stride if i were you... explaining the situation may or may not have help that womans understanding - but either way - she was just doing her job. and KNOWING why a dog is behaving a certain way, still doesnt excuse the dog if she feels that others were in danger.

ya know?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Perhaps the down position left her feeling vulnerable when someone ran past her? I would have given more space for the dog and/or distracted her as the person approached. I agree that it was not out of place for the lady to ask you to control your dog.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Learning experience. 

They do not have to know that you dog had to deal with all of the above. They are looking at the behaviour of the dog and addressing it. Would have happened at a few clubs that I know.

If you were by the ring and the person that ran by was double handling, that is an issue that you were too close initially. We always made sure that there was enough room and no dogs near the rings at the shows we did.

Dog was probably keyed up when it happened again. People run to and from the ring, as well as double handling around it.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

So what am I supposed to do to help the dog so this doesn't happen again?


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Many clubs have "Ring Training" and training in general to help you learn how to control your dog. I took a "Ring Training" Class and they did mock stuff with handler taking my young dog and me doubling. Stacking with a crowd of people watching and oter dogs and people around.

The show is not a place for training, clubs have training days for that. People who enter a show pay a class fee (so basically paying to be there) and they are entitled to the best oportunity for their dog to do well.

First time it happened I can understand being suprised, I can understand on the second time being asked to control your dog or leave. You had the opportunity to be more proactive with training when you saw the person approaching the second time, if you didn't see the person then that is a lesson for you also. When dealing with a dog that is reactive you have to be very alert and be in control of your dog.

Val


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Quote:
> Background first. I have socialized my dog when she was a puppy by taking her to grocery stores, hardware stores, local high school, and try to encourage people to pet her on walks as well. No problems. My dog has gone to obedience classes and was very well behaved there.


In my experience, we think that this sort of exposure is enough, but it's not. 

One of the Pats (either Patricia McConnell or Pat Miller) talks about the suburban dog, and how under-socialized he actually is. We do what we think is enough and take our dogs out into our community, but what happens is that our dogs go out to the SAME places over and over again. 

Twenty places maybe? Thirty? Not enough. 

They tend to see the same dogs in class. They go to the same facility. On walks around the neighborhood, they maybe encounter 5 dogs they don't know, but usually at a distance.

City dogs, she explains, are constantly going out, getting jostled by strangers, seeing new dogs, encountering new sights and smells. They're far more socialized than our suburban dogs, and they're that way since puppyhood. 

Sooo... my advice (and I'm sure others with have more advice) is start taking your dog out all the time to places she's never been. If people running by bother her, take her to every high school running track within a 50 mile radius at 5pm when everyone is out for their evening run, and just let her sit there at the edge of the track as they run by. 

Does she know a lot of older people? Maybe she reacted to the older woman because she doesn't know a lot of elders. If so, start going to places where older folks hang out. We have a park here that is next to the senior center. I like to take my dogs there. First, my dogs become socialized to elders. Second, though, most appreciate meeting a polite dog, and a chance to tell someone stories about dogs they had. It's a great opportunity, but especially if your dog may not be accustomed to older people.

Get her out of her comfort zone. And by that, I mean WAY out of her comfort zone. Take classes at a new facility with new instructors, even if it's just for the summer. Take an agility class if she's never tried that. Take her somewhere that she's never gone before to go swimming, or hiking. Go to every outdoor mall (that allows dogs) in your state.









If there's a college campus nearby, they often allow dogs on campus, take her there, and let her meet people -- as many people as you think she can meet without getting overwhelmed. 

I keep a quick list of places that I take my pups so that I remember where they've been and where they haven't. Every new place, we practice things like obedience with distractions (a new place is by definition distracting), meeting people, if possible, and most of all having a good time.










The more experiences our dogs have in novel environments, the more flexible they are in new situations. That's what socialization means. Often, we kind of think, "well, I took her out four times this week," and think that's good. But if we took her to four places she's been before (especially if she goes there often), well, that's great for her to get out of the house and go to places she likes, but it's not really socialization in the truest sense. 

BTW,if this were my dog, she would be going out EVERY time it rains. As soon as I saw a raindrop, we would be going for a walk, going to the park or heading somewhere else. 

One more thing, if you select FUN destinations farther from home, she learn not to hate car rides so much. Just be sure to make the trip enjoyable too. When my kids hop in the car, they don't know if they're going to the vet, to training, for a weekend camping, or longer in Montana, down to Dog Beach in San Diego, or if they're just going to sit in the car while I run in the bank. But they're always happy to go because I make sure that when we arrive at the destination, something great happens. (And when we go for a road trip, every pee break is a quick walk and sniff too). 

It sounds like you've worked hard and done good things with your pup. You definitely sound like you're on the right path. I think you just need to ratchet it up a bit.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I agree with everyone else. I did something similar with Keeta to socialize her. Took her to a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) obedience trial as a spectator. I was ready to leave the instant she would have uttered a peep, people competing should not have to deal with the distraction of a dog that is still in the process of being socialized and trained. The trial was on our Schutzhund Club grounds, and as new club member, who was encouraged by other members who were competing in the CKC trial to bring Keeta as a socialization opportunity, I was on my own turf, and there by invation, but still would have left if Keeta had not acted appropriately, out of consideration to the competitors. 

I stayed at a decent distance from everyone and the other dogs, and as the day went on, and people saw that she was well behaved and calm, they came over to talk to me and interact with my dog, so all around, the socialization opportunities were abundant without me causing any disturbance.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Same as above. Hella goes to club, but I am doing the same with her that I did with Baer. AKC fun matches, going to agility class. Different situations every time. Take her to different parks, with bikes, yelling kids, tennis courts and skateboards. SHE LOVES IT!!!

This weekend, going to take them downtown into the city. 

Nothing like with what we have in Budapest just right outside the proprty, with the traffic in the neighborhhood, the river life during the spring and summer, neighborhoods with all types of barking dogs. Buses, trains. etc.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh, and I wanted to add, that for socialization opportunities, I make special trips with my dogs just to get them exposed to new places. Especially important for me as I live in a quiet rural area. I've taken them to a local ski hill, around construction sites, to a horse club, walks downtown, to the airport, to work and exposed them to helicopters idling on the tarmac, flying low overhead, busy maintenance hangar, etc . . . all this in addition to taking them to big-box stores and just hanging around the entrance, going to training classes, playing around on playground equipment and agility equipment, and so on. 

Good luck with your socialization plan, there is a lot to see and explore in the big wide world for our dogs!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

great point, suburban dogs, city dogs and their socializing. i have a suburban dog that i thought was well socialized. i'm going to take another look after reading your post.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

First of all, if this was a point show, one where dogs earn title legs or championship points, then spectator dogs are generally not welcome. Dogs should be entered to be admitted. Entrance fees are usually $22 to $30 and you must enter about a month prior. With dogs this is not a big deal, but with bitches, it means you have to be pretty sure when your dog will be in season. 

Nobody is at the door looking at your entry info before allowing your dog in. Mostly it is a kind of honor system. But entrance fees cost plenty, so do hotel rooms, handler fees, grooming, etc, etc,. It is really not the place for novice people to have unentered dogs hanging around "playing with" other dogs. 

Most obedience people for sure and conformation people too, have no desire for their dogs to be "playing with" other dogs at a show. If the dog has been in the ring already, it is not as big of a deal; but if it has not it can cause the dog to lose its focus. Many of us train in such a way that the dog knows it is not allowed to go near other dogs, and simply ignore them. 

So how do you learn if you cannot bring them to dog shows?
Training classes first, obedience run throughs and puppy matches are another. Fun matches are yet another avenue. The thing is finding these as they are not always well publicized. Being involved in a dog club helps with this. 

Obedience run throughs usually have Rally and Obedience, cost about $5/run and have the same jostling show atmostphere, except on a smaller scale, with few or no vendors. The smaller scale is fine because the area is usually a lot smaller too. So you get the same denseness of people and dogs, plenty to get a dog started with. Puppy matches include conformation, and usually also have obedience and Rally run throughs. This usually costs $5 to $8. You enter on the day of the show. They often take place after a regular show, or are at a larger scale and have vendors. 

Fun matches are usually put on by training clubs and may include mixed breed dogs. Sometimes you compete for a portion of the entrance fees. The attitude is jovial and people are very willing to help you out and tolerate quite a bit.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

DHau - joggers and the like are sometimes considered as prey by some dogs. If your dog has never had someone run in front of her, she may be associating prey or she also might have been frightened by it are two things that come to mind as possibilities. If so, then socializing this kind of thing would also be important.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Sue,

This was a SV conformation show that was held at South Metro Atlanta. People do bring dogs not showing.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So it is not a point show, or at least, not an AKC point show. 

I am surprised that more problem behavior is not seen at such shows. In Germany, it is not uncommon for dogs to accompany people all over including in restaurants. In the US, it is uncommon for dogs to be allowed ANYWHERE.

Evenso, it seems a bit of a stretch to have a dog so undersocialized that the owner has NEVER marked his reaction around a person running being taken as a spectator to a dog show of any kind. 

AKC puppy matches and obedience run throughs and fun matches WILL be good practice for this dog even if they intend to work him in SV shows.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzer
> Evenso, it seems a bit of a stretch to have a dog so undersocialized that the owner has NEVER marked his reaction around a person running being taken as a spectator to a dog show of any kind.
> 
> AKC puppy matches and obedience run throughs and fun matches WILL be good practice for this dog even if they intend to work him in SV shows.


My dog has never attended a competitive event before because there had never been any intent to show her. I do know not to bring a non-competing animal to a show. The only reason why I was there in the first place was because I was requested to bring my dog so that a health issue could be addressed by somebody more knowledgeable than myself, Mr. Fred Lanting, as he was acting as a handler. 

Instead of locking my dog in the car after being examined, I decided to allow her to stay with me so that she could get used to other dogs and people being about. I thought it was a great opportunity. As I stated before, she displayed excellent behavior until people from behind us ran past her. I did make the effort to keep my distance from other spectators because I thought it was the right thing to do. Show dog or no show dog, one should always keep their distance because you never know what it will do. I will say that other dogs showed more aggression than mine while waiting for their turn in the ring.

I will accept the constructive criticism as given and do some more socializing so this will not happen again. This behavior was truly unexpected because we do take walks and socialize with people in our neighborhood as much as possible. During the times we are out walking, it is rare to encounter joggers because most people are at work and/or they are not inclined to stop what they are doing to socialize with a dog. In any case, I will make an effort to work on this.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I took Jax to a match yesterday to socialize. She started barking at the other dogs so I moved her way back where she could watch from a distance for two reasons:

1) She was obviously uncomfortable so I wanted to introduce her to all the activity slowly and at her level.
2) It's not fair to the ppl and dogs showing to have to deal with the distraction of a barking dog.

I don't think the lady was rude to ask you to back up. I think it was her job to oversee and keep everyone safe.

I also would never put Jax in a down in a strange place like that. It's hard enough for her to adjust and relax without concentrating on a command. 

My job was to walk her around, keep her safe and happy, let her see and teach her to properly socialize. As she got used to the activity I moved her closer to the rings. If she started barking I walked away to change her focus, let her watch from a distance and when she was comfortable I brought her back in. By the end of the day she was on a flat collar and off her prong for the majority of the time.

It is a great opportunity for you dog. I also repeated Leave It alot whenever someone would walk by or a dog would be near as soon as she even looked in their direction. That seemed to help so maybe it will help you also.

It sounds like your dog was just keyed up with all the activity and a little confused on how to respond. but I am NOT a trainer or an expert of any kind so try this at home at your own risk.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sorry if I came across a little harshly. I thought the question was asked if you want a dog to be comfortable in this setting, how do you accomplish that without bringing him? (I am paraphrasing.)

Having a load of dogs and only myself to deal with them, they are ALL undersocialized. This is why I go to the vets and hang out with puppies. This is why I have other people, the mobile groomer or petsmart groomers groom my dogs. 

To get them used to a crowd like a dog show I do a number of things. One is the classes I go to are held in a relatively small room, so we are in close quarters with dogs and people. We do not play or sniff other dogs there. We are working. Another is walking through the dog-friendly pet store. We do not sniff other dogs or play there either, we are working. To encounter a variety of people and some other critters, I try to take each of them out on the bike trail at least once each season. They see joggers, cyclists, strollers, roller bladers and the like. I do not expect these people to stop what they are doing and acknowledge my dog. In fact, I do not want them to. If my dog is a bit excited, I say something like, "That's a person on skates, lets go." If the dog barks, I will correct with an Eh! and occasionally a slight leash correction, and move on. 

I still have to be careful and watch my dogs at shows, because I KNOW that I am not out there every day socializing and training like a lot of these people. 

Many of the shows I go to are outside, and you NEVER know what might happen. Kids go by on bicycles. People run with whistles, people bring dogs and do not bother to respect other dog owner's space, etc. There are smells and food and vendors. I prefer to get them out, warm them up, let them potty and then let them rest in the comfort of their crate -- usually in my vehicle until time to go into the ring. After they finish I put them back in the vehicle because by then they have seen WAY more than what they would normally see on an ordinary day. And a little is a lot; and a lot is overwhelming. 

It is also important to note that my goal is not a dog that can run around and play with a group of strange dogs. My goal is a dog that will ignore dogs and people that do not concern it.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

I asked for opinions and I got them. lol. 

A friend of mine said that any stranger should be able to touch her anywhere. Is that true? I was under the impression that the intent of "socializing" was just to desensitize the dog to unfamiliar noises, animals and people.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't know that there are any "shoulds" like that - it's more up to you and what your expectations are and how you choose to raise your dog. I know my dogs can be touched anywhere by a stranger, but that's been a priority for ME, and that doesn't make it right for everyone. Some dogs are just naturally more aloof with strangers, and many people prefer that their dogs remain that way. Since I take my dogs lots of places on a regular basis and they're constantly exposed to new people and strange dogs, I want them to take that kind of situation in stride, and I would rather they be extremely friendly and sociable than to just tolerate it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you are standing there with a lose lead, then that would be ideal. 

The fact is that most people do not know how to properly approach a dog and often make swift movements to the top of the head. A well socialized dog with a good temperament may be mildly interested but should not react negatively. 

The standard says the dog should be approachable. The dog should stand its ground, not act aggressively, but not make overt attempts for attention from strangers. 

The idea that your dog should romp around with dogs it has never seen before, or should allow a complete stranger come into your house to give him food and water and take him for a walk, to me that is streatching it a bit. 

I kind of like the way the CGC test is done:

In one test a person just says hi to you and shake your hand. The dog sits or stands at your side and does not launch himself at the evaluator either as friend or foe. 

The next test the evaluator asks if they can pet your dog. You say yes and the dog sits quietly to be petted on the chest under the chin. 

The third test, the evaluator looks at the ears and lifts each front paw. In this test you may lightly hold the muzzle so that the evaluator does not get tounged on his glasses. 

If you do the test after a CGC class, this is usually done by the instructor and the dog is somewhat used to this person. This is a person who is NOT going to swing the hand quickly to the top of the head. 

Another test is to walk through a croud of people. You walk your dog around three or more people. The dog is not allowed to eat anyone, barking and growling with or without hackles may not be a good thing either. 

Another test is reaction to distraction, visible and audio. A door is slammed or stainless steel pans are crashed together. A person jogs by or a person walks slowly with a walker. The dog is allowed to be mildly interested, but is not allowed to react by barking, lunging, and the usual display of a fearful, undersocialized dog. 

Sit, Down, Stay, recall, and a loose lead walking pattern.

The last test is supervised separation. This is done by a person the dog does not know and generally has never met before. You leave the leash in the person's hand and go in the other room to pray for three minutes. The dog is allowed to bark or whine a little. The dog is not allowed to pull the person into the next county looking for you. The person is allowed to talk to the dog. 

They used to require the dog to be at least six months. I think the dog should be at least a year old. But now you can do it with no age restrictions.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

Thank you selzer for giving me the above information. This gives me some goals to work towards.


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## gsdsrule (Apr 10, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Smithie86Learning experience.
> 
> They do not have to know that you dog had to deal with all of the above. They are looking at the behaviour of the dog and addressing it. Would have happened at a few clubs that I know.
> 
> ...


Is double handling still allowed at shows? I thought it was going to be discontinued.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

At specialty shows it is alive and well. Not sure about sieger shows.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

As I understood it about 8 years back, double handling wasn't allowed but consistently happened in the GSD ring at AKC shows.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Dhau, honestly I wouldn't worry over it too much. For several reasons....

* No matter how much a club prepares, hosting shows is always stressful. The club members, people in charge, handlers, and exhibitors often feel stressed, rushed, disorganized, and might say something that sounds very curt

* It sounds like you've already put a lot more into socialization than some people have. Your dog sounds at least as well behaved as my Nikon and he is IN these shows (for some reason he never barks or carries on *in* the show, but generally I can't have him on the sidelines. All the dogs and people running, and the toys they wave around double handling are just too much for him and ME to deal with, lol!)

* I always see un-entered dogs and puppies at these shows and don't think there is a problem with it but like others have said, the double handlers like to have their space. It's not that they think your dog is aggressive, but I have often felt bad having to elbow people aside and I'd hate to startle or step on someone's dog. I'm not sure how close you were, but just something to keep in mind for the future.

* Some people just do get annoyed with too many dogs on the sidelines. Now this is where you get the short end of the stick, but there have been incidents and people not using common sense, so they might ask you to move back or control the dog, erring on the side of caution rather than giving you the benefit of the doubt. Generally the dogs that are *in* the show are put up before and after showing.

* These shows can be a little, or a lot, chaotic. Like others have said it's a big leap from going to the hardware store and the park to a show like this. There's a lot going on for the dog that might not effect a human. Like I said before, even when I have a dog in the show I don't take him on the sidelines, he just comes out to potty and if he needs to stretch his legs we generally find somewhere nearly out of eyesight of everything else. All the noise, toys, running, gun shots, megaphone...it's a lot for a dog, even a well socialized one. Generally when I'm at a show, I'm there either to show my dog, socialize myself, or photograph the show. It's just not an environment I use to do real socialization with my dog. I actually prefer to use it as learning to be put up in the car. When we arrive at a show, Nikon sees the other dogs in cars and barks but now he's learning to settle quickly and I can put him in and out of the crate without a fuss.


Please don't let the experience discourage you from attending these events and socializing your dog, just keep in mind that it's a very stressful environment, and the people there are there to perform in or run the dog show and that is their first priority.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: selzerAt specialty shows it is alive and well. Not sure about sieger shows.


Oh yeah! At the last Sieger show they had a ring inside the ring just for double handling, thank goodness! Not all dogs need the same amount of double handling (for example, if Nikon can see me or if I'm too close, he goes nuts so I have to hide in a corner blind and randomly call him so his head is up looking for me, but other people literally jog alongside their dog the entire time) but it's pretty rare for a dog to not be double handled at these shows.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DHau I will say that other dogs showed more aggression than mine while waiting for their turn in the ring.


If dogs are showing aggression at these events, it should be reported. I was at our regional and the two veteran males were getting quite snarky at each other IN the ring, and the judge stated that if it wasn't a veterans class (doesn't count) he'd have thrown the dogs out.

Now, the dogs WILL sound off at each other, the will sometimes bark b/c the owners are running away and hiding to double handle, or get all worked up for their toys or whatever.

But if you see true aggression, please report it. I'm always bothered when I see these comments buried in threads or posts but never actually reported to the event chair. These types of shows do NOT condone aggressive behavior towards dogs or humans.


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