# Being Alpha??



## pshah0002

i have max for almost couple months now. everyone i have talked to have told me that i better start acting alpha or he will be a mess. so far, i havent seen any aggresion behavior from him toward me or anyone else. i was advise by many people to pin him to show him whose the boss. I tried this method and i feel like hes scared of me now and dont even come close to me when hes called. before he would let me rub his belly but not after i started pinning him. my question is "is it necessary to pin dog to show whose the boss?" i been doing other things like making him sit before going out, eating food, before getting treat, etc.. please advise me on this topic other than pinnning max. I want to be his friend and ii dont want him to affraid of me.


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## Vinnie

pshah0002 said:


> my question is "is it necessary to pin dog to show whose the boss?"


NO!

I recently read a great article forwarded to me by my dog's breeder. If anything I took away from the article it's that "being Alpha" doesn't mean being a tuff BA who is overbearing and extremely dominant. In truth, "being Alpha" means being a leader.


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## Courtney

Check out this thread...esp. first post by Lou Castle.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/90871-establishing-dominance.html


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## Mac's Mom

pshah0002 said:


> i have max for almost couple months now. everyone i have talked to have told me that i better start acting alpha or he will be a mess. so far, i havent seen any aggresion behavior from him toward me or anyone else. i was advise by many people to pin him to show him whose the boss. I tried this method and i feel like hes scared of me now and dont even come close to me when hes called. before he would let me rub his belly but not after i started pinning him. my question is "is it necessary to pin dog to show whose the boss?" i been doing other things like making him sit before going out, eating food, before getting treat, etc.. please advise me on this topic other than pinnning max. I want to be his friend and ii dont want him to affraid of me.


After reading & considering what I've read from people on this site over the last couple years, I do believe that you have to establish yourself as alpha. I believe that the dog will be happier and feel more secure knowing you are in charge. Thats my opinion. I don't think pinning the dog down is an effective way to achieve that (P.S. I'm speaking from experience, my husband does that). Anyway, I don't think you've caused a permanent break in your bond. He will let you pet his belly again.  

The other things you're doing like "making him sit before going out..." etc is called NILF and I do think that helps. 

Good luck. I hope you get a lot more advice.


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## PaddyD

I don't like the term 'Alpha'. Dogs have not been wolves for 30,000 years or more. They just want to know we are in charge and that they can trust us to give them what they need. No pinning required. Dogs are opportunists and they are practical, they will do what benefits them and if it benefits them to follow an individual who is always there for them, providing food, shelter and affection then they will try to accommodate that person by obeying. Some dogs, like people, have stronger independent streaks than others .... so they are not so quick to accommodate and require more patience and persistence.


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## pshah0002

thank you all who have replied so far. i still wants to know others opinions on this.


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## RocketDog

I would take cues from your gut and your dog. "Pinning" is an outdated way of thinking. Does the dog need to see you as leader? You bet. But coercion never will produce the kind of respect, devotion and loyalty that a true bond will, and IMHO the way to do that is to be a fair, clear and consistent leader who teaches. Are corrections necessary at some point? Likely. But "proving" your abilities does not necessitate intimidating the dog while you're forming a bond and hopefully a deep relationship. 

Just my .02, which is likely more than they're actually worth.


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## BlackGSD

Pinning a dog is a great way to get yourself bitten in the face.

I've had several GSDs as well as other breeds over the last 30+ years and have NEVER pinned one down. I've also never had one have any aggression issues toward me.


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## doggiedad

i think training and socializing determines your
relationship with your dog. alpha and dominance
is so overrated. my dog doesn't have to do anything
for a treat or a meal. sometimes i'll call my dog
when we're eating dinner and give him something
from my plate or my GF might give him something
from her plate. we can tell him to take whatever it is
to his bed or tell him to back up. if i say "no more"
he moves away from the table. he sleeps on the bed with us.
if i want him off the bed i can point to the floor or give him
a verbal command to get off the bed. our dog always eats
before us. i find it easier to feed him and then make our dinner.
going in and out of doors, it all depends on what the situation
calls for and that determines who's going in or out of the door
first. i also step over my dog. a stranger can step over my dog.
i do all of the things mentioned and more and i don't
have a problem with dominance or alpha. we coexist
with our dog. i've never pinned my dog. before you
try any other methods of establishing yourself as alpha
post it here so we can talk you out of it.


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## BlackGSD

PaddyD said:


> ....... Some dogs, like people, have stronger independent streaks than others .... so they are not so quick to accommodate and require more patience and persistence.


And even with this type of dog, STILL no pinning required.


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## robinhuerta

Pinning is as smart as "dominant humping"......good grief.


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## Chicagocanine

That dominance stuff is way outdated. Most of it came from flawed observations on WOLF behavior (wolf, not dog) and was not even based on natural wolf packs. The main researcher on this has also since recanted most of what he said before.
Also even if that stuff was all correct, dogs are not wolves and people are not dogs so it makes no sense to act like you're a dog (or an "alpha wolf") because your dog knows your not.

IMO if you give your dog clear rules and boundaries and proper training, they will know you are the leader. 
You don't need to be "alpha" or force a dog to submit to you for them to respect you.


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## BowWowMeow

Here is a great article on this topic: De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal Article

The important thing for both you and your dog to understand is that you are a clear, calm, consistent and fair leader. 

If your dog is afraid of you after you've pinned him then you have the answer to your question. Trust is key in training. Fear is not and, in fact, fear makes training much more difficult.


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## codmaster

Chicagocanine said:


> That dominance stuff is way outdated. Most of it came from flawed observations on WOLF behavior (wolf, not dog) and was not even based on natural wolf packs. The main researcher on this has also since recanted most of what he said before.
> Also even if that stuff was all correct, dogs are not wolves and people are not dogs so it makes no sense to act like you're a dog (or an "alpha wolf") because your dog knows your not.
> 
> IMO *if you give your dog clear rules and boundaries and proper training, they will know you are the leader. *
> You don't need to be "alpha" or *force a dog to submit to you* for them to respect you.


*How do you get a dog to obey you if he doesn't know you are the leader? How do you get him to know you are the leader. I.E. which has to come first? *


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## doggiedad

i think through training, socializing, feeding, playing,
spending time together makes you the leader
without trying something to establish who's boss.
i never worry about a dog dominating the pack.
i coexist with my dog. i break a lot of the rules.
i hand feed my dog from my plate, i step over my dog, he 
sleeps on the bed with us, i open the car door for
him and he jumps in and i drive him around, we visit
friends, does Saturday run around stuff with me. my dog
is my pet/companion. he was trained and socialized to
be that way. when your dog is well trained and highly
socialized you're automatically in charge. you can
be in charge usuing soft hands and spoken words.



Chicagocanine said:


> That dominance stuff is way outdated. Most of it came from flawed observations on WOLF behavior (wolf, not dog) and was not even based on natural wolf packs. The main researcher on this has also since recanted most of what he said before.
> Also even if that stuff was all correct, dogs are not wolves and people are not dogs so it makes no sense to act like you're a dog (or an "alpha wolf") because your dog knows your not.
> 
> IMO if you give your dog clear rules and boundaries and proper training, they will know you are the leader.
> You don't need to be "alpha" or force a dog to submit to you for them to respect you.





codmaster said:


> *How do you get a dog to obey you if he doesn't know you are the leader? How do you get him to know you are the leader. I.E. which has to come first? *


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## pshah0002

thank you all i feel much better now. i will stop pinning right away and will continue to build my bond with him stronger.


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## doggiedad

through everyday life with your dog you automatically
become the leader. everyday life; training, feeding,
socializing, playtime, quality time, just being around the dog,
treating (for no reason other than to treat). i think the first
sign of the dog letting you know your the leader is house breaking.
the dog doesn't go in the house because it doesn't want too. they
don't go in the house because they're listening to their human.
does a pup know who's in charge of it's pack or does
the pup learn who's in charge of the pack, whatever the answer
is i think it's the same with us.



codmaster said:


> *How do you get a dog to obey you if he doesn't know you are the leader? How do you get him to know you are the leader. I.E. which has to come first? *


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## PaddyD

codmaster said:


> *How do you get a dog to obey you if he doesn't know you are the leader? How do you get him to know you are the leader. I.E. which has to come first? *


No need to shout.
Dogs learn you are the leader by the fact that you are their only source of food, shelter and affection. As I said, they are practical and form a bond with he/she who is the provider of all good things. They also learn because you actually lead by requiring certain basic behaviors, like elimination outside, etc.
Here is an interesting article. You may not agree with it but ...
The Truth About Dogs - Magazine - The Atlantic


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## doggiedad

wait, you don't mean the human humping the dog
to show who's alpha or who's dominate ? i haven't
read it but there must be a law against doing that. ROTFL.



robinhuerta said:


> Pinning is as smart as "dominant humping"......good grief.


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## PaddyD

doggiedad said:


> wait, you don't mean the human humping the dog
> to show who's alpha or who's dominate ? i haven't
> read it but there must be a law against doing that. ROTFL.


What goes on behind closed doors ......... 
All I know is that if you scratch a GSD's (or any dog's) butt he/she is all yours.


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## dOg

You control the resources(food)...and that's all the dominance you need. Fear begets fear, and it's beyond useless, it's counter-productive. The alpha-roll was an idea expressed by the Monks in the 1st edition of their book, when old school was not yet old, and it was removed from the 2nd edition.

Cesar's methods are too old school, and his psychology is his own, not rooted in the science. I think he's done more harm than good in terms of educating the public. Sure he sounds like Ricky Ricardo, and who didn't love him? That has little to do qualifying for dog training guru, but everything to do with selling ads on NatGeo.

What I have found to be of great use is to simply tell the dog he/she is a good boy/girl, the last thing said before I fall asleep with the dog at the side of the bed...even if they've been a complete pistol all day. Sooner or later, the pup grows up to be the one everyone else wishes their dog could be. Nuture the bond, the rest will happen more easily because they'll work for praise quicker than they'll work to not be com-pulsed.


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## onyx'girl

pshah0002 said:


> thank you all i feel much better now. i will stop pinning right away and will continue to build my bond with him stronger.


You also want a confident puppy...it is so easy to squash confidence, hard job to build it back up if it was ever there. 

I pinned Onyx one time when she was chasing after a child in an aggressive manner. Now she hates kids even worse than she did before I did that...what did it teach her? 
To see children as a bad experience. I've learned since then, but the damage was already done. 

Read the link that BowWowMeow posted, good one.


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## doggiedad

my dog sleeps on our bed, beside the bed or in his bed which is 5' away from our bed. once the lights are out
and everyone is settled in i always pet my dog and say
some kind words. i think my dog is on our bed
at the moment. i'm going to pet and him and say
some kinds words. thanks for the idea. i'll say something
nice to him for you also. 



dOg said:


> What I have found to be of great use is to simply tell the dog he/she is a good boy/girl, the last thing said before I fall asleep with the dog at the side of the bed...even if they've been a complete pistol all day.


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## Courtney

I love the wind down at the end of the day. He will lay/curl up next to me & he's told that he's a good boy...I talk in a soft voice & he just stares at me, his eyes will start to close or he will give a cute head tilt. We should all remember to talk to our dogs...even if it's random thoughts said out loud...they love that contact with us


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## kennajo

PaddyD said:


> What goes on behind closed doors .........
> All I know is that if you scratch a GSD's (or any dog's) butt he/she is all yours.


Or when you scratch "around his business" he is all yours.....ROFLMBO:laugh:

seriously be your dogs friend but gentle leader. Let him know that you will take care of him in all ways.....provider, protector,companion. Show him love. Take him out in public ,have fun but ask for good manners! We have had numerous dogs and that is our natural way and it works for us and you get as much as your 4 legged buddies do from it!


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## kennajo

you could try tethering as well ,it helps with the bonding.


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## codmaster

PaddyD said:


> No need to shout.
> Dogs learn you are the leader by the fact that you are their only source of food, shelter and affection. As I said, they are practical and form a bond with he/she who is the provider of all good things. They also learn because you actually lead by requiring certain basic behaviors, like elimination outside, etc.
> Here is an interesting article. You may not agree with it but ...
> The Truth About Dogs - Magazine - The Atlantic


 
Wasn't shouting, just happened to have the *BOLD* key left on.

BTW, *CAPS* indicate shouting, not bold type.

BTW2 - what you need to do with a dog to establish that you are in charge will vary considerably with the individual dog (or so a couple of very learned trainers once told me a long time ago).

And that has proven to be very true with the very differing personalities of the numerous GSD's that I have owned over the years.


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## codmaster

PaddyD said:


> No need to shout.
> Here is an interesting article. You may not agree with it but ...
> The Truth About Dogs - Magazine - The Atlantic


 
*Sounds like it was written by a cat person.*

Do you believe all the stuff in there?


Of course a dog doesn't obey because "they want to please us!" - BUT I dare you to say that at my local obedience club meeting. it will bring a "Hailstorm" of yelling and disbelief that anybody could say that their "FIDO" doesn't live to please them! I know as i did it! Heh! Heh!


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## Cassidy's Mom

Dogs understand that s/he who controls access to the good stuff - valued resources, as dOg said, is the leader. That's pretty universal, it's how dogs sort out their own hierarchies. Now what each individual dog considers a valued resource, well that can definitely vary.  But once you figure that out, it's easily exploited for training purposes.


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## Whiteshepherds

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Dogs understand that s/he who controls access to the good stuff - valued resources, as dOg said, is the leader. That's pretty universal, it's how dogs sort out their own hierarchies. Now what each individual dog considers a valued resource, well that can definitely vary.  But once you figure that out, it's easily exploited for training purposes.


:thumbup: 
Harley can be easily bought, his brain is ruled by his stomach and a ball. Annie doesn't care about food but she loves attention and is more than happy to work with just praise as a reward. 
My husband will do just about anything for a pizza...


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## Good_Karma

I try to keep this in mind when I am tempted to use force to establish leadership with my dogs.
_
Why Punishment Does Not Work

"Punishment can damage the relationships we have with our dogs. You want your dog to feel safe near you, not threatened. Fear stops the learning process in both dogs and humans. If the threat comes from the source of learning (the handler), the decrease in learning is compounded.

***The most serious danger with punishment, however, is that it very often feels good to the punisher. Punishment is reinforcing to the punisher. It mistakenly leads us to believe that we have "fixed" the behavior. The next time we will be tempted to punish harder and faster.***

Not only is punishment risky, but it also fails to teach the dog an acceptable alternate behavior. The dog does not learn what to do the next time he is in that same situation. He only learns to fear the situation. To adequately solve the aggressive behavior, you need to ask yourself, 'What do I want my dog to do, other than being aggressive when he sees another dog?' "

Excerpt from Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog by Emma Parsons_


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## shaner

I definitely don't pin my dogs down, but I will at times lay them on their side and hold them there. But I'm not pinning when I hold, I'm petting and talking softly to them. It's a leadership exercise, but one where they learn to trust me, while at the same time they learn that I am in charge. If they struggle, the exercise is over and I'll do it again another time. My dogs don't struggle any more though as they trust me and know I would never hurt them.


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## onyx'girl

There are other ways for a dog to know their handler is in charge than laying on them or dominating their vulnerability. I don't see the reason for this dominance type of 'training'. 

The only reason I ever pinned(it wasn't done to "dominate", just control her) Onyx was to stop her behavior when she was running/lunging aggressively after a child. It was the worst thing I could have done to her. Children are now her enemy because of the way I reacted to her behavior. If I could turn back time....


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## pshah0002

last night, ii was playing with max and ii was able to lay him down and was able to pet his belly and he seemed fine with it. job well done!!! thank you all :wild:


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