# E Collar first session



## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Hello guys,

We did the first session today. It went well but I have a few questions:

I have this E Collar https://www.educatorcollars.com/educator-et-300-plus.html with the double boxes and a bungee.

I am using the longer probes that came with it. Fitted high on the neck and the boxes right under the chin. 

I tried it on the palm of my hand and I felt it at 15. Using Lou's recall protocol.

We went out with the long leash. Wandered around. Started the process of finding the working level. Till 15 nothing. I am 100% that the contact was good, because at 15, the muscle was moving behind his shoulder from the back. But zero reaction, zero. Until 21 when he turned his head but I am talking about a very slight turn with zero nervousness. No startling, no ear twitch, looking down.

I kept at that level and walked around. When he moved away and I was stationary, I pressed continuous stim, he turned his head to my direction (not right away, after stimming for 1-2 seconds), I pulled on the leash slightly and as he started walking the first steps towards me, I released the button. Did that maybe 10 times. The last couple of times I added "come". When he got to me I gave him a treat. 

It was remarkably smooth, he had zero nervousness. Just was being himself. We went to play a bit after and done.

I was surprised that he did not react till 21 while I slightly felt it at 15....Does anyone use this model with the small two boxes? 

Any feedback on above much appreciated.

Thank you


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

There can be a great amount of variation between dogs as to what their working level is and it doesn't necessarily have to do with a dog's nerves or toughness. Some dogs reactive at the slightest stim and some have to have a significantly higher working level. I can't tell you why.


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## Malibu (Jul 27, 2017)

E collars can work but you really have to know what you are doing. Understanding how to use it, well I guess you should start there. Why do you feel the need for an E collar. How old is your dog and what are the issues you are trying to correct.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

I think the thickness of the fur has a lot to do with the level of stim needed to make contact with the e-collar. Even with longer contacts for one of my pups, he usually needs a higher level of stim than the other. This really keeps me on my toes with making sure of the settings before sending the stim. Also the level of distraction can make a huge difference in the level needed for the dog to make notice. It sounds like you are doing things right by using a long leash and teaching the dog how to turn off the stim in a controlled situation. Move slowly so that the dog understands and don't forget to reward the dog for getting it right in addition to stopping the stim. Used correctly, the e-collar is a valuable tool. It has allowed me to give my pups the freedom to run and play in the woods.

BTW, I use a Dogtra and which has a stim range of 0-100. I can only feel it at about 20-21 on my own hand.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

You don't want to use the first time you put it on so the dog doesn't become 'collar-smart'. Have him wear it for two weeks first.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Mozi said:


> Hello guys,
> 
> We did the first session today. It went well but I have a few questions:
> 
> ...


 All dogs are different with the stimulations levels . Sounds like a successful session overall. Good work ! As you add more distractions its likely you will need to dial up further .


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Malibu said:


> E collars can work but you really have to know what you are doing. Understanding how to use it, well I guess you should start there. Why do you feel the need for an E collar. How old is your dog and what are the issues you are trying to correct.


 I don't think its being used to "correct" any issues but simply to train . Low level stimulations are not corrections. Sounds like they have a good start and LouCastles methods are very effective .


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## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

techinstructor said:


> BTW, I use a Dogtra and which has a stim range of 0-100. I can only feel it at about 20-21 on my own hand.


I do as well. It's been great. 

Like others have said, all dogs are different. Mei's working level is 18-22. I've caught myself using the buzz feature more lately and it's been effective.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

RockyK9 said:


> I don't think its being used to "correct" any issues but simply to train . Low level stimulations are not corrections. Sounds like they have a good start and LouCastles methods are very effective .


Hi Rocky, I am sourcing Lou's material from here eCollar | SIRIUS DOG and from his posts from the site as his site is down. Do you happen to know of nay other repository where his methods are all laid out?

Many thanks


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

wolfy dog said:


> You don't want to use the first time you put it on so the dog doesn't become 'collar-smart'. Have him wear it for two weeks first.


I have had it on him for about a week plus Off , on , random etc....now we are going out and will be putting it but not using it etc etc.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mozi said:


> Hi Rocky, I am sourcing Lou's material from here eCollar | SIRIUS DOG and from his posts from the site as his site is down. Do you happen to know of nay other repository where his methods are all laid out?
> 
> Many thanks


I went to that site and read the "article" on "_teaching a dog to sit._" It is a ridiculously poor method to teach a dog to sit. That is probably one of the worst methods I have read in over 25 years. The method is antiquated and will become barbaric to the dog. Teaching a dog to sit is the easiest thing to teach a dog. You do not need a leash, e collar, a 20' lead or any other tools. Give me a treat and/or a toy and I will teach any dog to sit very easily in a matter of minutes. Sorry, using an E collar to teach a recall is poor training as well. Funny, how Lou talks about the "velcro dog" syndrome he creates. As if a dog that is afraid to leave your side is a good thing or something that is needed to train your family pet and companion. Lou is careful to advise that you need to "look for signs of stress" and then end the session. Why would any normal dog be stressed from an obedience session? Because the handler is using too much compulsion? Could that be the reason? Lou simply doesn't know the importance of praise and reward and reinforcing the desired behaviors. That is the secret to dog training, which you will not learn as a novice reading Lou's stuff. It's really not a big secret or any mystery. Any decent dog handler learns this very quickly. Dogs learn by repetition and correct training. Force + stim and jerking on a leash creates an unpleasant learning environment causing the dog to shut down and the learning process ends. Hence the need to watch for "signs of stress." 

These techniques have a very small place in dog training, none in my dog training. Teaching a dog to sit by using an E collar, pulling up on the leash and pushing down on the hips is the worst technique out there. It is so completely outdated, obsolete, weakens your bond with your dog and takes longer for the dog to learn. 

I would strongly recommend this book: "Purely Positive training" by Sheila Booth. 

Read the book, understand what it takes for a dog to learn, how to teach behaviors motivationally and put the E collar away until your dog has been taught and trained. Learn how to get your dog to want to work, not just avoid pain and punishment, which is what Lou does. Get a deeper understanding of how dogs learn and how to motivate a dog to want to be obedient. Build a bond so deep and strong that your dog doesn't leave your side because you are the center of his universe, not because he is afraid to wander off. I am to a purely positive trainer, I understand the need for correcting disobedience but I also understand how to properly reward correct behavior. I'm not soft, but I rarely ned to correct my dogs for disobedience and I do not train behaviors with an E collar or jerks on a leash. I use a prong collar every day and I do use an E collar, just not to teach behaviors.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

I do not know where you can find all his methods laid out . He used to have a website and I have spoken to Lou a few times in the past. Keep in mind , if you have not seen already , you will get many different opinions on E collar training methods. You will need to use your own discernment and decide for yourself. For me , I have used Lou's methods of low level stim and they are far from barbaric . My dogs love to work , are enthusiastic and we have fun and a strong bond. You will hear otherwise . Like many things opinions are abound. Use your own judgement . For every person that says its a poor way to train you can find just as many that have used these methods with great success. It sounds like you are finding your way . Good for you . Keep us updated .


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@RockyK9, I offered my opinion based on many years of training dogs for both competition and real world working dogs. Dogs that have to perform at a high level every day. I have worked with a lot of dogs over the years, actually every day. I have K-9 Handlers from other agencies coming to me to fix problems with their dogs that were caused by training methods similar to what Lou uses. Trained in the yank and crank, Koehler methods or the now seemingly popular "low level stim" methods. Which is actually nothing new or novel. These techniques have been around for years, Lou didn't invent or create them he copied them. I can tell you from first hand experience that they are unnecessary. There are far better ways to train a dog especially for novices. I have no issues with using an E collar, I use one on my dog. I have an issue with the way the E collar is employed. If you think these methods are good and bring out the best results in a dog, then you need to do more training with more experienced people. My goal at work everyday is to produce and maintain the best working K-9's that a handler can have on the street. Dogs that perform consistently at a high level under very stressful conditions. The methods described will never achieve that level of performance, continued compulsion creates avoidance. It's a fact, plain and simple, it is a fact. 10 years ago I went to seminars by individuals way more highly skilled and advanced dog trainers than Lou that have advocated the "low stim method" and I understand the principles. But, after seeing it first hand and the dogs it was used on I would never use it. These pros train bird dogs and compete for large cash prizes, $50,000 for a one day first prize. If the dog can not handle the "low stim" they get another dog, these dogs are also harder than most of the dogs the people on this forum own. 

I have neither the desire or luxury to replace dogs after the training screws them up. Trust me, if I thought this method was any good I would use it myself. If you think it is fair, humane or a good way to train a dog to sit by stimming, yanking up on it's leash and pushing down on it's hips, all at the same time ..... Well, you can train your dog anyway you like. We are going to disagree on training methods. I can teach it faster, easier and make it last with 1/3 the effort and my dog will love the training. 

I do agree that we all need to use our own discernment and decide for ourselves. For those that like this method of training, post a few videos of your high drive, happy, precise working dog doing a nice obedience routine. I'd love to see some really well trained dogs doing a happy, upbeat, motivated, off lead obedience routine. I'd like to see some super fast recalls, straight fronts and quick to the heel position. Then I may change my mind. The majority of the folks that try this system are hoping to correct poor behaviors they already created or lack the experience to know how to start training a dog. This method looks easy and laid out systematically and on the surface looks good. Those of us with experience know the potential pitfalls and have already avoided creating the behavioral problems the novices are so desperate to fix. It is promoted as being "positive" training but it actually is not. My biggest issue with this method besides being antiquated, is that with out someone watching who has experience, the novice dog owner will not see the signs of stress that occur. To be very clear, Lou's methods of training are not pleasant for a dog. That is the bottom line. 

Teaching should be pleasant, corrections for disobedience are not. It is unfair to correct a dog for disobeying before you even train it, IMHO.


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## RockyK9 (Dec 9, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> @RockyK9, I offered my opinion based on many years of training dogs for both competition and real world working dogs. Dogs that have to perform at a high level every day. I have worked with a lot of dogs over the years, actually every day. I have K-9 Handlers from other agencies coming to me to fix problems with their dogs that were caused by training methods similar to what Lou uses. Trained in the yank and crank, Koehler methods or the now seemingly popular "low level stim" methods. Which is actually nothing new or novel. These techniques have been around for years, Lou didn't invent or create them he copied them. I can tell you from first hand experience that they are unnecessary. There are far better ways to train a dog especially for novices. I have no issues with using an E collar, I use one on my dog. I have an issue with the way the E collar is employed. If you think these methods are good and bring out the best results in a dog, then you need to do more training with more experienced people. My goal at work everyday is to produce and maintain the best working K-9's that a handler can have on the street. Dogs that perform consistently at a high level under very stressful conditions. The methods described will never achieve that level of performance, continued compulsion creates avoidance. It's a fact, plain and simple, it is a fact. 10 years ago I went to seminars by individuals way more highly skilled and advanced dog trainers than Lou that have advocated the "low stim method" and I understand the principles. But, after seeing it first hand and the dogs it was used on I would never use it. These pros train bird dogs and compete for large cash prizes, $50,000 for a one day first prize. If the dog can not handle the "low stim" they get another dog, these dogs are also harder than most of the dogs the people on this forum own.
> 
> I have neither the desire or luxury to replace dogs after the training screws them up. Trust me, if I thought this method was any good I would use it myself. If you think it is fair, humane or a good way to train a dog to sit by stimming, yanking up on it's leash and pushing down on it's hips, all at the same time ..... Well, you can train your dog anyway you like. We are going to disagree on training methods. I can teach it faster, easier and make it last with 1/3 the effort and my dog will love the training.
> 
> ...


 Slamdunc,

I do respect both your opinion and experience. I have no doubt you are very successful in the methods you use . Nobody is trying to change your mind so sending you videos of dogs that have been trained another way is pointless really. Train your dogs the way YOU like.Let others do the same. You can search up many videos I'm sure of happy working dogs that have been trained in other ways other than your own. I think learning can be about trying and failing and thats okay. Old time methods , yank and crank once upon a time we believed to be correct . Over time people learned that there are different ways that can be effective and shifted maybe even you included I don't know. All part of discovery and learning and thats okay too. Purely positive think their way is best , anti e collar crowd . Balanced trainers think their way is best etc etc ....Its like arguing about religion and politics . Using discernment and not being afraid to make mistakes will serve most very well.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> I went to that site and read the "article" on "_teaching a dog to sit._" It is a ridiculously poor method to teach a dog to sit. That is probably one of the worst methods I have read in over 25 years. The method is antiquated and will become barbaric to the dog. Teaching a dog to sit is the easiest thing to teach a dog. You do not need a leash, e collar, a 20' lead or any other tools. Give me a treat and/or a toy and I will teach any dog to sit very easily in a matter of minutes. Sorry, using an E collar to teach a recall is poor training as well. Funny, how Lou talks about the "velcro dog" syndrome he creates. As if a dog that is afraid to leave your side is a good thing or something that is needed to train your family pet and companion. Lou is careful to advise that you need to "look for signs of stress" and then end the session. Why would any normal dog be stressed from an obedience session? Because the handler is using too much compulsion? Could that be the reason? Lou simply doesn't know the importance of praise and reward and reinforcing the desired behaviors. That is the secret to dog training, which you will not learn as a novice reading Lou's stuff. It's really not a big secret or any mystery. Any decent dog handler learns this very quickly. Dogs learn by repetition and correct training. Force + stim and jerking on a leash creates an unpleasant learning environment causing the dog to shut down and the learning process ends. Hence the need to watch for "signs of stress."
> 
> These techniques have a very small place in dog training, none in my dog training. Teaching a dog to sit by using an E collar, pulling up on the leash and pushing down on the hips is the worst technique out there. It is so completely outdated, obsolete, weakens your bond with your dog and takes longer for the dog to learn.
> 
> ...


Hello Slamdunc,

Just to be clear.

I am not intending on using Lou's methods or the ones in the link to train behaviours.

I want to use the E Collar to strengthen recall and proof it. I also want to have it on when on hikes and in places where I might need it for an emergency in case he blows the recall. I am researching Lou's and the links for those specifics things only.

Leash pressure and leash pops are used by reward based trainers like Ellis etc...to refine and correct etc. I used the E on myself on low stim. And if I feel comfortable doing a light leash pop, then a low stim tap does not seem "worse" as long as the dog understands it. 

There are many highly regarded members here and trainers who do use the E Collar. So it seems like those use the E despite also training for rewards. So it is another tool in the training program. I am being extremely careful in my approach and hence sharing on the site and listening.

By the way I have and read Sheila Booth on Schutzhund Obedience: Training with Drive. Very nice book and I use it a lot. I will also buy the other you recommend. 

From your side, what do you use the E Collar for? I would also very much appreciate your perspective on when you correct and how you correct. 

Thanks


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Mozi- just some quick thoughts since I was once where you are. I started long ago with Lou's methods, I suppose because they are quick to show up in an internet search? I tried them, honestly to the letter, and found them to be not in line with my relationship with my dogs. Also not suitable for the temperament and "hardness" of my particular dogs. 

Where I landed on now is teaching the dog the meaning of yes (agree) and no (disagree) markers right from the start. Give them meaning and importance. Then it is really quite simple to layer in e-collar corrections once the dog knows what you want. I don't generally actually use low-stim, I use the collar as a correction, so it's above the "just discern" level, and more at the "don't want that again" level. I have tested all levels on myself. 

The only time I use an e-collar to train something a dog doesn't necessarily know is for porcupines and chasing game. And even there I do my best to pair it with at least a no marker. 

So, in short, I teach the dog commands without e-collar, sometimes using rewards, sometimes not it depends on what I'm doing. Then I layer in the e-collar through the proofing process. I personally want the dog to know the correction is coming from me, and that I don't necessarily have to be looking at or even in view to issue said correction. I don't need the dog to think it is "environmental" because that is confusing- was it the wierd bush that corrected me, or that paper blowing in the wind?

If the dog knows it is her handler doing the correcting, it is so much clearer to her, and as long as it is fair and consistent, you won't suffer the environmnetal issues that can haunt e-collar trainers. 

I RARELY actually correct my dogs. I train my young dogs to understand the language of yes/no and the e-collar I add in later (if needed- not all dogs need it). I keep e-collars on my dogs all the time we are off leash in the woods because deer/moose/stuff happens, but I depend on my voice the most because it is far easier to shout "hey, here!" than to fumble with the e and correct the dog. 

I also really like using the tone on my collar for recall so I don't have to shout. Also, it means the dog can hear me on windy days or if we are near a rushing creek. 

So what I do is basic marker training, with the no marker reinforced with e-collar as needed. I train high-level e avoidance for super dangerous situations too. Rarely need many repeats there. 

For example, I'm sure camels pack a nasty punch in a kick, and you could train pure avoidance so your dog doesn't end up with a bashed in skull- far better a controlled correction than a dead dog.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Muskeg said:


> Mozi- just some quick thoughts since I was once where you are. I started long ago with Lou's methods, I suppose because they are quick to show up in an internet search? I tried them, honestly to the letter, and found them to be not in line with my relationship with my dogs. Also not suitable for the temperament and "hardness" of my particular dogs.
> 
> Where I landed on now is teaching the dog the meaning of yes (agree) and no (disagree) markers right from the start. Give them meaning and importance. Then it is really quite simple to layer in e-collar corrections once the dog knows what you want. I don't generally actually use low-stim, I use the collar as a correction, so it's above the "just discern" level, and more at the "don't want that again" level. I have tested all levels on myself.
> 
> ...


Your method is very similar to M. Ellis. I have all his videos. He conditions the dog using the E for recall. Then layers it on top for corrections with a "no" marker. I also have the yes and no markers work well and Rex understands the "no" marker vey well.

Many thanks for your input. It will definitely help in my journey to hear experiences of others. I am being extra careful on monitoring stress levels in the training.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It's all a journey, I think you'll figure it out!


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> So, in short, I teach the dog commands without e-collar, sometimes using rewards, sometimes not it depends on what I'm doing. Then I layer in the e-collar through the proofing process.
> 
> I RARELY actually correct my dogs. I train my young dogs to understand the language of yes/no and the e-collar I add in later (if needed- not all dogs need it). I keep e-collars on my dogs all the time we are off leash in the woods because deer/moose/stuff happens, but I depend on my voice the most because it is far easier to shout "hey, here!" than to fumble with the e and correct the dog.


 This is pretty much what I do as well though I always teach with rewards first (sometimes food and sometimes toys or play). I teach the skills first using positive reinforcements and then later use the e-Collar to reinforce when the dog doesn't do what he knows he is supposed to do usually because of distractions. I also give treats for compliance after a stim. In addition to ensuring recalls, the e-collar is helpful with dogs that can be toy possessive and don't want to "drop" or "out." It is also helpful for reinforcing "Leave it" when they find those juicy little tidbits on our walks in the woods. I use low level stims and often just use vibrate to remind them of what they need to do. 

It has been a wonderful tool for me. I love positive training, but I don't think I'm good enough or consistent enough at it to get the 100% results I need. I’ve watched enough of Susan Garrett’s training methods to know it’s possible, but I’m not skilled enough yet to achieve her level of results. Maybe one day I won’t need to use an eCollar, but for now it has given me a lot of security and which has allowed me to give my pups a lot of freedom to run and play. I think it is worth it.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

There are many roads to Rome, depending on the skill, knowledge, and patience of the handler/owner/trainer. I have seen many people who cannot get the timing and delivery for basic treat/food based obedience, or marker, or toys, or electric, etc. Good luck in your journey, it sounds like you will get to the level that is needed for you and your dog!


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mozi, 
I use the E collar for delivering a correction when the dog is disobedient. Here is my definition of disobedience: Once a dog is taught and trained in a behavior, i.e. sit, down or recall. The dog has two (2) seconds to perform a command that I have given it. The dog understands the command and has been trained how to perform the command. If after a 1 1/2 seconds, no longer than 2 seconds the dog has not performed the command or in the process of performing the command or behavior, that is disobedience. The dog understands what to do and has been trained properly to do it and decides not to do it, that is disobedience. To be fair, the dog gets 2 seconds to act. If the dog decides not to do the behavior, sit, down, recall, etc after 2 seconds the dog will immediately be given a correction for the disobedience. I do not repeat commands, I never say sit, sit sit, SIT, now I'm mad SIT. I will use a negative marker and either a leash correction, verbal correction, or an E collar correction. It depends on the behavior I want and the behavior of the dog. 

I use low stim and I also use high levels of stimulation depending on what we are doing. If my sport dog becomes distracted while doing an IPO training track, I may use a low level stim to re focus the dog. The dog already knows how to track and loss of focus is disobedient. In other training like aggression control, I may give a much more severe correction for not outing or calling off. But, one must understand the drive state of the dog and the same level of correction in one instance might be completely ignored or totally ineffective in another instance. The correction may be a leash correction with a prong collar, an E collar correction or both. 

Here is how to properly correct a dog for disobedience: First, the dog must be trained and understand the behavior. Second, the correction must be delivered immediately for disobedience. Third, the level of correction must be high enough to immediately stop the undesired behavior or make the dog perform the command. The level should be high enough that the dog immediately stops the behavior and remembers the correction today, tomorrow and next month. Then the dog MUST be praised and rewarded at a significantly higher level than the correction. Praise and reward as soon as the dog is correct is crucial. Even my current dog, Boru who would protest a hard correction and come up the leash rather strongly trying to bite me is praised lavishly once he is performing correctly. As soon as my blood pressure goes down and the dog is correct in his behavior he is praised and rewarded at a very high level. Boru is a hard dog and is ready to work seconds after a very strong correction and that is when he his praised. Too many people let their emotions and ego get in the way of properly praising and rewarding their dog. That is one of the keys of becoming a good dog handler, check your ego and emotions before you begin training. There is no place for anger, frustration or retribution in dog training. If your in a bad mood or having a bad day, then you skip doing any obedience training until you can find your happy place again. Boru is one of the most challenging dogs that I have ever worked. The first year was very rough and stressful. It took 2 moths to get him to release a toy with out biting me. He bit his 6 prior handlers and that is how I got him. I used a lot of patience and positive methods to change his behaviors. There were times when the level of correction that was needed was almost more than I could deliver. E collars on high just made him more aggressive and violent. He bit me one day for stepping on his foot, I almost lost two fingers because he caught his tail in a door during building search training. He is an extremely reactive dog. After I got the door open and his tail was free he let go of my hand. I made sure his tail was not broken and continued the search with blood running from my hand. Why? Because I did not want that to be a negative experience for him. I did not want him to view building searches with any trepidation. He searched, found the hidden decoy and was rewarded with a bite and a good fight. The training session that started out really badly for him ended on a high note. I then went and bandaged my hand and stopped the bleeding. I never got angry or upset with him for biting me, didn't yell and stayed calm and in control. Even when I thought I might be losing two fingers. Boru was in pain and is reactive. His behavior was not personal it was just his reaction. 

Today, I can reach into his mouth and remove a toy, food or anything else. He is a different dog and I love him. He is an awesome Patrol / Narcotics dog. One of the reasons I refused to send him back to the vendor was because I knew he would bite his next handler and probably be put down. Even today, I rarely need to do more than a verbal correction and he responds instantly. The times I need to physically correct him are the times that training can become really exciting. Although, he no longer tries or wants to bite me, he is a lot of dog to handle. Every dog is different, but the basic principles of fair and humane training apply to all dogs. A strong correction to one dog may be harsh and severe, that same correction may be completely ignored by another dog. A dog's perception is it's reality as a wise man once said. with a softer dog even low stim can be perceived as harsh and unwarranted. 

I hope that helps a little.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> Mozi,
> I use the E collar for delivering a correction when the dog is disobedient. Here is my definition of disobedience: Once a dog is taught and trained in a behavior, i.e. sit, down or recall. The dog has two (2) seconds to perform a command that I have given it. The dog understands the command and has been trained how to perform the command. If after a 1 1/2 seconds, no longer than 2 seconds the dog has not performed the command or in the process of performing the command or behavior, that is disobedience. The dog understands what to do and has been trained properly to do it and decides not to do it, that is disobedience. To be fair, the dog gets 2 seconds to act. If the dog decides not to do the behavior, sit, down, recall, etc after 2 seconds the dog will immediately be given a correction for the disobedience. I do not repeat commands, I never say sit, sit sit, SIT, now I'm mad SIT. I will use a negative marker and either a leash correction, verbal correction, or an E collar correction. It depends on the behavior I want and the behavior of the dog.
> 
> I use low stim and I also use high levels of stimulation depending on what we are doing. If my sport dog becomes distracted while doing an IPO training track, I may use a low level stim to re focus the dog. The dog already knows how to track and loss of focus is disobedient. In other training like aggression control, I may give a much more severe correction for not outing or calling off. But, one must understand the drive state of the dog and the same level of correction in one instance might be completely ignored or totally ineffective in another instance. The correction may be a leash correction with a prong collar, an E collar correction or both.
> ...


Thank you for the detailed reply Jim.

So there is a bifurcation in the use of the E Collar by trainers. One is low stim to teach or reinforce behaviours, and one is to correct, which has to be at a somewhat higher stim level I presume.

I would like to discuss the recall as a scenario and understand your perspective, philosophically speaking:

Assume the dog understands the recall command very well.

1st scenario. One scenario is to reinforce it using low stim with leash. Then off leash, use the low stim and switch off. Yes, here we would be causing discomfort for a known command.

2nd scenario. Go out and do recalls, add distractions and then correct at a higher level when recall is blown off.

Wouldn't scenario 2 be more "tough" on the dog? It seems to me that if you reinforce the behaviour "softly" as per scenario 1, which should lead to a very reliable recall where the dog does not blow you off, it is less stressful on the dog overall. 

When I was using low stim (today we were at 12), Rex had zero signs of stress versus when I correct him where he shows signs of being corrected. If both scenarios lead to the same result, wouldn't scenario 2 be better from a relationship perspective.

Would appreciate your logic and thoughts on this given the clearly deep experience you have.

Many thanks.


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## techinstructor (Nov 15, 2014)

Good advice Slamdunc.
I had a previous shepherd who was extremely high drive and could be aggressive. I don't think the eCollar would have worked well at all with him. He would have reacted badly to it. Dogs are extremely complex and one shoe doesn't fit all. Ultimately I think training, no matter the tools used, is about building a relationship and learning to communicate with the dog.


Mozi,
I'm new to this so I could be doing this all wrong, but I don't think all "corrections" have to be on a high level. In fact, I have used vibrate to correct at times. For me the level I use depends on the dog's drive at the moment and the level of distraction that is influencing his/her decision to disobey. Sometimes a low-level stim is all that is needed to remind the dog to get back on track.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mozi said:


> Thank you for the detailed reply Jim.
> 
> So there is a bifurcation in the use of the E Collar by trainers. One is low stim to teach or reinforce behaviours, and one is to correct, which has to be at a somewhat higher stim level I presume.
> 
> ...


Mozi,
As Cliff correctly pointed out, there are many ways to train a dog. Some work well, some not so well. One method may work with a certain type of dog and not work with another dog. Some dogs have high food drive and low toy drive. Some dogs have high toy drive and low food drive. Some dogs have little drive while other dogs are high drive all around. 

I have a fairly large tool box and will use the best method to train the dog I'm working with. Rather than use compulsion, I prefer to build drive and work my dogs "in drive." I have a lot of patience and am able to see and forecast the journey of training an individual dog. I may change my approach and try new things if one technique isn't working. One thing to keep in mind, if you use positive methods and are patient and consistent with your dog you will never screw your dog up. Start with an E collar and stim to teach behaviors and you may very well screw a dog up. Or start with the old Koehler method with out a complete understanding of the method and people screw dogs up. I know "old school" K-9 trainers that still employ the yank and crank method of teaching behaviors. I've seen them screw up some very nice dogs that were no longer effective on the street. 

You offer two scenarios, the first I wouldn't do. I do not use compulsion to get my dogs to recall. It takes the speed out of the recall and why punish a dog even slightly for returning to you? I clocked my GSD Boomer at 32 miles per hour on a recall from a down position. If I did the silly stuff that Lou recommends would that dog ever race back to me at that speed? I doubt it. 

Here is the thing, when I go out to train I have a "Plan A" and "Plan B." I give the recall command and the dog flies back to me and everything is great. I praise the dog and we have fun. I am also always prepared to correct the dog if "Plan A" doesn't work. Then "Plan B" comes in to place. I always have a means of enforcement or correction on my dogs. In your scenario 2, I would correct a dog that is trained to recall, such as my patrol dog, Boru very sharply for disobeying my recall command. 

I believe that Scenario 2 with a trained dog that only gets a good correction for disobedience is far more humane and kinder to the dog. That is what most people do not understand. The whole low level stim thing and leash jerks are corrections and over time become cumulative in the dog's mind. Constant compulsion creates avoidance and crushes spirit and drive. A good correction reinforces the need to not repeat the bad behavior and lavish praise when correct insures the appropriate behavior. 

You can continue to use your "low level stimulation" on your dog. Rex is your dog and you can train him as you like. I'm not sure you would recognize the subtle signs of stress that your level 12 may be putting on your dog. 

There are so many easy ways to train a fast recall with using an E collar or anything else. I just do not see the need to stim a dog to get it to recall. I understand the concept and that is why I do not like it. Think of what must be going on in the dog's mind as he is getting stimmed to return to you? Why would I want my dog feeling any discomfort when it is recalling? Why would I want my dog thinking I have to get back to Mozi to turn this collar off and stop the leash corrections? I prefer my dog racing back to me because he is going to be rewarded, his thought process from thousands of repetitions is that "I can't wait to get to Jim, because he is going to reward and praise me." I praise my dog like he has the winning 300 million dollar lottery ticket in his mouth and he just gave it to me. How much would you praise your dog if he ran up to you with the winning lottery in his mouth? I prefer to be patient and use clear signals and rewards to teach behaviors. 

Dogs learn by repetition and need abut 300 reps of an exercise to start to really get it. I can easily put a thousand reps of a lightning fast recall on my dog in a couple of months woking 5 - 10 minutes at a time. I bridge a fast recall with the word "HERE." It is ingrained and paired in my dogs mind to run at full speed every time I say the word "HERE." I never say "HERE" in my home because my dog can not run full speed in my house. I only use it outside where the dog can race back to me.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mozi,
Here is a video of my GSD Boomer doing a recall at 11 years old. He was trained from a puppy to run full speed to me when recalled. When you pair the appropriate behaviors and command they will stay with a dog for it's life.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Slamdunc said:


> You can continue to use your "low level stimulation" on your dog. Rex is your dog and you can train him as you like. I'm not sure you would recognize the subtle signs of stress that your level 12 may be putting on your dog.
> 
> There are so many easy ways to train a fast recall with using an E collar or anything else. I just do not see the need to stim a dog to get it to recall. I understand the concept and that is why I do not like it. Think of what must be going on in the dog's mind as he is getting stimmed to return to you? Why would I want my dog feeling any discomfort when it is recalling? Why would I want my dog thinking I have to get back to Mozi to turn this collar off and stop the leash corrections? I prefer my dog racing back to me because he is going to be rewarded, his thought process from thousands of repetitions is that "I can't wait to get to Jim, because he is going to reward and praise me." I praise my dog like he has the winning 300 million dollar lottery ticket in his mouth and he just gave it to me. How much would you praise your dog if he ran up to you with the winning lottery in his mouth? I prefer to be patient and use clear signals and rewards to teach behaviors.


Sorry for interrupting into you guys' conversation. I am currently using e collar to proof my dog's recall during trails too, and I have been practicing pressing the low stimulation (6-12/127 on dogtra) together with the come command per my trainer's instruction as her introduction to e collar. I would love to only shock my dog when she disobeys too, but I have a concern, it would be great if anyone can help out with it! The concern is that if only used when the dog disobeys the recall, won't the dog start to associate seeing/approaching the distraction with getting shocked (I am assuming most pet dogs only disobey recall when there is a strong distraction)? How to make the dog know that correction is from not coming back instead of meeting other dogs/wild life/other distractions during trails? I am worried of my dog getting reactive towards those distractions if she only gets shocked during their presence since the only times she ignores my recall are during their presence. However, I have a problem with the low stimulation with come method too, every time I call my dog back with a shock, she tends to look visibly stressed and sticks very close to me for quite a while afterwards instead of venturing off. She also sometimes refuses to take her treats for coming back if the come has been given with a shock, not sure if anyone else encountered this.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

This is a great discussion with lots of good information.

The way to avoid random negative associations with things like other dogs, is to make sure the dog understands that the consequence comes from you, that the dog understands that he is being corrected for not obeying a command (the correction is NOT coming from the environment), and also of course to practice lots of recalls under many different circumstances. Use a long line or flexi if you need to at first. You don't need to use the e-collar at this stage of training. 

Mark the correction with a negative marker, mark the wanted behavior with a positive marker.

If you do it right, the dog won't have any environmental issues. I have a real problem with correcting the dog every time you say the command. That is old school and is not a good way to train a dog to be eager to work with you and eager to come. In fact, training this way would lead to far more problems with associating the shock with the environment.


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> This is a great discussion with lots of good information.
> 
> The way to avoid random negative associations with things like other dogs, is to make sure the dog understands that the consequence comes from you, that the dog understands that he is being corrected for not obeying a command (the correction is NOT coming from the environment), and also of course to practice lots of recalls under many different circumstances. Use a long line or flexi if you need to at first. You don't need to use the e-collar at this stage of training.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input. And yeah I use a long recall line in parks near the city but that is not super convenient on trails especially wetter ones or ones with trees for dogs to zigzag through. My trainer said the stimulation at low level as she comes is only the initial stage to train her to run back to me immediately when stimulation happens to stop it and the sessions are kept short in quiet environment to avoid, albeit unsuccessfully, stressing her out. After a few more weeks of conditioning in different types of environments, I think we don't have to do that regularly anymore only once in a while to remind her that it is still there and to of course really start using it for offleash hikes. But I agree she really doesn't like those sessions... it makes me wonder what she would choose if she can, going through this (~3-4months of e collar conditioning in total) and wearing the e collar or staying on leash during our hikes.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Now I'll butt in for a minute....If you're stimming the dog as she is obeying and on her way back to you I believe that is confusing to her.So recalling to you becomes uncomfortable rather than something she should be pleased to do.

I think of the e collar as an invisible leash.If I were to tug,tug,tug on the leash as he's being obedient and coming to me then the recall becomes something unpleasant.

For example: "Sammy Come Here!" but Sammy would rather eyeball that turkey out in the field. "Hey!"plus stim to correct,Sammy comes running happily back.Major praise ensuesThe stim is the *invisible leash* pop to regain his focus,my "Hey!" is the marker word. 99% of the time the "Hey!" is enough .My two cents anyway.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For some dogs if you throw the ball more than five times for them to retrieve, it’s stressful; for other dogs the five repetitions are the start of fun. For some dogs to play with a tug, is stressful; for other dogs, it’s the start of fun. For some dogs using low stim is stressful; for other dogs it can be exhilarating.....my point is that skill, knowledge, and experience of both your tool AND your dog must factor into the equation. I agree with Slam and Tech.....but I know Jim(Slam) has the experience/knowledge to pick the direction he needs to go. But we also must factor in purpose of training and desire of owner. I usually exact different levels of compliance from folks in obedience, in folks that just want their pet to listen/behave; and folks that want to be taught Bitework. Folks that want to learn bitework MUST have a higher level of obedience compliance for me to responsibly work their dogs in bite-work.
Not knowing the OPs training environment and purposes, it’s difficult for me to assess the remote usage!


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

dogma13 said:


> Now I'll butt in for a minute....If you're stimming the dog as she is obeying and on her way back to you I believe that is confusing to her.So recalling to you becomes uncomfortable rather than something she should be pleased to do.
> 
> I think of the e collar as an invisible leash.If I were to tug,tug,tug on the leash as he's being obedient and coming to me then the recall becomes something unpleasant.
> 
> For example: "Sammy Come Here!" but Sammy would rather eyeball that turkey out in the field. "Hey!"plus stim to correct,Sammy comes running happily back.Major praise ensuesThe stim is the *invisible leash* pop to regain his focus,my "Hey!" is the marker word. 99% of the time the "Hey!" is enough .My two cents anyway.


Hey thanks for sharing your thoughts! The protocols my trainer gave me were to give stimulation until the dog is right in front of me within arm length, the reasons being to make them race back a.s.a.p. as stimulation only stops when the dog is within reach, however, now I run into the problem that she is afraid of leaving my side after a few recalls in a session

And thanks for the idea of a negative marker! I will ask my trainer if she thinks that is a good idea for my dog. Though I think the problem with the "invisible leash" method in my case is again my dog will only ever disobey recall when she is rushing to a distraction, and I am worried without previously conditioning her to receiving stimulation from the e collar for everyday recall (even though she obeys them), she will begin associating those distractions with shock. But maybe I over-think haha, it looks like this method has worked well for many people.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

DaBai said:


> ... however, now I run into the problem that she is afraid of leaving my side after a few recalls in a session
> 
> ... But maybe I over-think haha, it looks like this method has worked well for many people.


I'm not any kind of expert on the use of e-collars, nor do I think one needs to be to see that your dog is telling you clearly that this approach is not working well for her! If she's afraid to leave your side after a few recalls the stim is too high, or her temperment is such that negative reinforcement is not a good method to use with her. Either way, she's confused. If this were my dog I'd be looking for a trainer who employs other methods for teaching a fast recall (or anything else, for that matter!).

The main problem I see with novice dog owners using almost any method, is they underestimate the POWER of praise. And because of that often give very limited praise or omit it all together. With e-collars I see people doing that even more, simply press the button, get compliance, and move on. No praise no reward no fun. Go back and read Jim's comments, reward your dog consistently like she is bringing you a winning lottery ticket, and you won't ever need compulsion IMHO!


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Thank you all for the very informative discussion.

Jim,

Your arguments and that video of Boomer   made me re-think approach. I will not use the low stim method to create discomfort to make the recall more reliable.

The negative marker and the E being used as a correction makes more sense especially that all my training has been rewards based using Michael Ellis videos. 

A couple of questions please to help:

1. How do you condition the dog to understand that the stim is a correction coming from you?

2. I assume you use the nick and not the continuous for the correction?

If you could please elaborate on the methodology and if you have any videos or books to recommend that go through this in detail. I have no E Collar trainers around me and I have confidence that with the right guidance, research and patience I can use it fairly.

Many thanks


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Mozi said:


> Thank you all for the very informative discussion.
> 
> Jim,
> 
> ...


First, you have one of Sheila Booth's book on positive training. That is the basically the blue print that I use for starting all my training, whether it is a 7 week old puppy or a 18 month old potential Police Dog. Get Sheila's book called "Purely Positive Training." Great information and will explain how to train your dog "in drive" motivationally. 

Dog training is like building a house, you need to have a strong foundation and there are no shortcuts. 

*1. How do you condition the dog to understand that the stim is a correction coming from you?
* 

There is so much more to using an Collar than reading a page on a website and putting it on a dog and starting to shock the dog. 

I condition the dog to the collar before I ever start using it. The dog wears the collar for a couple of weeks before the collar is ever turned on. I have already started my training with a leash and collar and the dog wears the E collar for weeks before it is turned on. 

IMHO, it is absolutely imperative that the dog understands the correction is coming from me and not some spot in the grass, another dog or a garbage can. There are no "boogy men" in dog training. The correction absolutely comes from me and the dog clearly understands this. This is a fundamental principal in correctly using an E collar. Any one who recommends or uses an E collar as "last resort" is wrong, IMO. Any one. like Lou who recommends using the collar to "spook" or surprise the dog to teach a recall are wrong. It is very clear and elementary to me. 

Now, when the dog has worn the E collar for a few weeks during our regular training sessions, I will turn it on. I have previously mentioned that patience is a fundamental pillar in dog training. I will then slowly turn the collar up and stim to find the level where the dog feels the stimulation. This may be an ear twitch, licking the lips or a head turn. 

Once I know the starting level, I go back to my regular obedience training with the leash and collar. Then I pair the low level stim with a pop on the leash. For several weeks when I give a light leash correction the dog gets the low E collar stim at the same time. The dog begins to pair the leash correction wth the stim form the E collar, coupled with a negative marker the dog clearly knows the E collar stim comes from me. I want my dog to know that the stim is directly coming from me. Now, as the proofing is ramped up and I am working more in drive the corrections will also ramp up. The praise and reward also ramp up and the excitement, energy level and fun ramp up. 

Remember the "Plan A and Plan B" i mentioned to you in an earlier post. I never go out to train with out a means of correction. I never say, "I think he will do it???" Or, "it should be ok?" If I am not 1000% sure my dog will perform flawlessly and correctly there is a Plan B in place. Even then, there is a plan B.

*2. I assume you use the nick and not the continuous for the correction?*

I use both. It depends on what I am doing and what drive state my dog is in. I've used continuous on high and I use the Nick at various levels. Because, 95% of my training is spent praising and rewarding my dogs, don't think for one second that I am soft. I am a benevolent dictator, I am fair and firm. I do not view my dogs as fur babies or little people. I view them as dogs and treat them accordingly. I can assure you that our dogs do not view us as dogs. They are dogs, not people. I love my dogs and take exceedingly excellent care of them. 

Different exercises, drive and aggression levels call for different levels of correction. I will use the level that gets my dog's attention and the desired result that I want, the levels varies from dog to dog. 

Of all the tools that I have to train dogs, an E collar is the most rarely used. It is not the end all to dog training or magic


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## DaBai (Aug 13, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> I'm not any kind of expert on the use of e-collars, nor do I think one needs to be to see that your dog is telling you clearly that this approach is not working well for her! If she's afraid to leave your side after a few recalls the stim is too high, or her temperment is such that negative reinforcement is not a good method to use with her. Either way, she's confused. If this were my dog I'd be looking for a trainer who employs other methods for teaching a fast recall (or anything else, for that matter!).
> 
> The main problem I see with novice dog owners using almost any method, is they underestimate the POWER of praise. And because of that often give very limited praise or omit it all together. With e-collars I see people doing that even more, simply press the button, get compliance, and move on. No praise no reward no fun. Go back and read Jim's comments, reward your dog consistently like she is bringing you a winning lottery ticket, and you won't ever need compulsion IMHO!


I don't remember the last time I go anywhere with my dog without her treat pouch, during hikes in remote area she wears a backpack that has more than enough treats for the trip, she literally gets a treat for every successful recall since I start training with my current trainer, that is why unless she is in the chase mode towards the distraction, recall works every time.

And yeah I talked to my trainer about this, she just recently replied and agreed my dog was quite sensitive to the collar and I should avoid using it during regular recall so you are absolutely right here haha. My trainer is actually a mostly positive trainer and she only teaches positive methods in group classes, but we feel like this problem can't be resolved with treats alone.

And thanks for slamduc sharing his method of conditioning the e collar, that is very helpful.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Slamdunc said:


> First, you have one of Sheila Booth's book on positive training. That is the basically the blue print that I use for starting all my training, whether it is a 7 week old puppy or a 18 month old potential Police Dog. Get Sheila's book called "Purely Positive Training." Great information and will explain how to train your dog "in drive" motivationally.
> 
> Dog training is like building a house, you need to have a strong foundation and there are no shortcuts.
> 
> ...


Thank you Jim for the feedback. Very helpful. Lots of work to do!

Best


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

*Update*

Hello guys,

Wanted to give an update.

So I have been doing three things:

1. Doing lots of work daily with high value treats. Work is heal and come off leah. Rex responding very well. Success 90% in the park. Some dogs pass us on leash. I see them afar and I down him. They pass. 

2. Conditioning E Collar work with leash. Again here, Rex does not give any signs (twitching, looking down) but I know contact is good as I can see muscle twitch. That baffled me until one moment he felt it (below)

3. Consuming lots of material. Bart Mellon, Larry K and just reading and reading. Got Jim's book Sheila Booth book.

So I felt that he knows the commands very well and that he knows the E despite no visible signs. Sometimes under distraction off leash, they can get sloppy (the 10% I mention above).

So decided to go to the park off leash, heal in the beginning, play, and do some recalls. So this is really was the test of where we were. I went when it was not busy at all. 4 to 5 humans scattered. And maybe two dogs on leash.

Recounting what happened:

So I took two frisbees, water, E Collar on and the leash with me but did not put it. 

We walked first and healed. His heal above was not close and sometimes he got distracted and I correct with a no. So this time, when he veered, I said heal and I stimmed with a no and released as soon as he got back to position. We were at level 20. In about 3 minutes of healing, he was in the correct position and closest he ever got in a consistent fashion. I stimmed maybe 5 times. After which we walked in a tight heal for about 10 minutes, no stim. People passed us, dog from far and he was in position, I turned and he turns great. Left, right, U turn. It was great. 

Then decided to throw some frisbees. Threw a couple. One time, he stood maybe 50 feet away. I called him and he ignored me. Waited 3 seconds and I stimmed and this is the first time he made a reaction. It was a light yelp and came to me. Made nothing of it and played and ran with him. Dialled back to 15. Recalled about 5 times without stim. He recalled great. 

Then a dog came on leash with a couple. He looked at dog. Did not go to it. He was about 20 feet. I called heal and he came to heal. We walked close to dog, he broke heal a bit, I stimmed with heal once. Directly came into heal and we just walked in 8 eights while the dog was barking. He paid little attention to dog. I started running and playing with him. He was playing all along. Did not stim during and after. He paid no attention to people or the barking dog.

When we were done. I put everything in my bag. Said heal and lets go home. We walked off leash for 10 minutes with no stim in tight heal all the way to the house.

I was not happy that he vocalised once and I think he suddenly recognizes what it is, so it seems that 15 is the working level. 

I think we put it together well as a team. It was a mix of play and E Collar work. I was very surprised with the positive results of the heal and the recall from this session. I think it was a lot to so with the everyday work using food and him knowing the commands.

Now that I know he knows what it is and that we had what I think was a good session, I will surely be taking it very easy with lots of positive reinforcement and light E Collar work so that off leash becomes more and more reliable. 

Any criticism, negative or positive welcome.

I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread again. 

Best


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

*Update 2*

We went out for a 30 minute off leash walk. 

I had high value treats in my treat pouch and E collar was on 15, which I have established is Rex's working level.

We heeled most of the time, with turns and all. I was reinforcing his correct position with treats. I stimmed twice is the whole 30 minutes. I released him to do our run after me game. 

Then two couples came with their dogs who I knew. I put Rex on a down. A lady who I know asked me if she can approach. I released him and he went to say hi. We let the dogs off leash. They played. At one point when we were all going to leave, I called him off and we went off our way. No stim.

I am not sure if he realized that I can correct him from far and thus the great performance. I am making sure the E is off and on randomly so I doubt he got collar smart. So far so good.

Ultimate goal is to achieve off leash consistent reliability for enjoying off leash freedom.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Excellent!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Good for you for putting in the work. Sounds like a success.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

*Final update*

Here is a final update that I decided to write so that I give color to newbies given my overall newbie experience.

Lots of the great information on this forum comes from very experienced dog handlers and trainers. So I thought I will write my final thoughts / lessons / experience from what I learned and the responses of Rex.

1. Be very careful on finding the "working level". Rex was stoic during the conditioning phase. I went up to 30 on the Mini Educator 300 series and he had zero reactions. Except that I knew we had good contact because of the muscle twitch on the shoulder. I did not want to go any higher and my work started there. If you see from the post below, in one instance, he vocalised and it is like all of a sudden he recognized it.

2. Given above, I think it is best to stop at something around 10-15 even if the dog did not recognize it and work assuming he did. He will probably get an aha moment and recognize it. I am now at 10 now and he definitely recognize it.

3. Low stim to avoid versus nick to correct. I researched and tried both approaches with the highlight being today. We went out, no treats, just his tug toy. I had the collar on 10 (yesterday it was 15 if you read my earlier post) and on "M" which is nick. The session was full of play, heeling and releasing to tug. Downs, running, and then healing and releasing to play. During the heeling work, which is what I am working on to make reliable, I stimmed once today at 10 with a nick and whisper style "no" when he veered off once. He corrected position and we played and played. His attitude was much more upbeat versus when I tried to low stim to avoid technique. He was all positive attitude as normal. 

Another stim happened when we crossed a dog on leash that he veered to. Two nicks there with a no and heel to come. He recognized and came back and I exploded in play right after. He forgot about going to the other dog.

In a nutshell, finding the working level is tricky and could result in a bad experience if one is not careful. Making the session about play and only using the stim within a fun session I think is a great thing. As above, we were out for 45 minutes and I nicked "only" 3 times. The behaviours I reinforced were learned and he knew them well prior to all of this. 

I think it is a great tool but one has to be very careful. I think the margin of error is small. The more the relationship is solid and the more the sessions are focused on play, the more successful (by successful I mean having great attitude in the session and being able to correct and put back into play drive quickly, which is what is called "recovery" I beleive).

In a place where there is zero e collar training and where I was almost kicked off from the "Dogs in Dubai" FB group for asking, I consumed lots and lots of material, books, videos, free and bought and everday podcasts while driving back and forth to work (I drive 2.30 hours per day!). And with that, I think I was lucky to be able to balance things out.

I hope this helps anyone who is interested in reading about early on experiences that seem to be successful.

Cheers and high appreciations for all who helped out on this forum.

Mozi


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Over the weekend, I bought an online course called "Mastering the E Collar" by Tyler Muto.

It can be found at www.considerthedog.com

It is 200 bucks but well worth it, well made and very detailed. I think it was the most thorough learning in one place that I was able to get my hands on.

Best


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Mozi you are truly *a breath of fresh air*.It's really nice to see an owner so dedicated to doing the very best for his dog and open to trying new things.You've never let the inevitable bumps in the road get you down.Mozi is a lucky boy


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## ck_moniz (Jun 4, 2018)

A bit of cheep advice, the prongs that come with the collars are junk. Spend the 10 -12 to get the stainless steel ones. The SS prongs will ensure you get a positive connection. The plastic prongs are inconsistent and ultimately more dangerous. Also I have found with my dog we put the box higher on the neck, in line with the ears. We rarely use the stim, but when we need to it has the proper affect consistently. To use or not to use opinions vary and I would rather stay out of the debate. But if you decide to use, get the SS prongs.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

dogma13 said:


> Mozi you are truly *a breath of fresh air*.It's really nice to see an owner so dedicated to doing the very best for his dog and open to trying new things.You've never let the inevitable bumps in the road get you down.Mozi is a lucky boy


Thank you  This forum is also full of amazing people who give to their dogs.

I have never thought I would love a Being like that. He is teaching me a lot.

Cheers Dogma


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

ck_moniz said:


> A bit of cheep advice, the prongs that come with the collars are junk. Spend the 10 -12 to get the stainless steel ones. The SS prongs will ensure you get a positive connection. The plastic prongs are inconsistent and ultimately more dangerous. Also I have found with my dog we put the box higher on the neck, in line with the ears. We rarely use the stim, but when we need to it has the proper affect consistently. To use or not to use opinions vary and I would rather stay out of the debate. But if you decide to use, get the SS prongs.


Thanks CK.

My collar cames with the SS as well in the box. I was hesitant to use them as they are quite more pointy that the plastic ones where the front piece is blunt. Concerned that the pointy SS create more discomfort with the pressure.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Thanks so much for sharing!! Very good feedback. Glad you are achieving great results.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

Way back in my early days of Schutzhund, the early e collars were much harder to use. You only had 3 levels. You could get them recalibrated. They were very expensive. In today’s dollar probably near a grand.

Anyway the trainer was ex USMC DI..drill instructor. He rule was “do it my way there is no other”. The rule was never ever use it as a weapon or harshly on your dog.

So his method of teaching was to put his collar on your bare leg...tightly. He then taught you commands in a foreign language. Kinda German. No Engliish. It’s a little hard to explain but he was trying to show you what the dog is going through when you are training them. If you thought this was a funny thing, I’m telling you today’s phaser traing was easy. One laugh and you were on the ground. To say your leg tingled would be a great understatement. You only giggled once. 

After “basic” you graduated to training your dog. You still had the collar on your leg. Make a mistake and down you went. I have to say you really concentrated on what you were doing. With these high power dogs you had to be quick and precise. Most dogs responded to the first level very well as they were taught the exercise first then the ecollar was used for reinforcement. It was amazing how the dogs responded. After a few weeks they would not make mistakes and they were the most loving dogs you could imagine. Those that qualified for K 9 training were the best. It wasn’t the fear of the collar, it was they were clear in what you were commanding or asking. This probably the whole point in training.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Ive been following and wished I hadn't fouled up on the ecollar. It is the only collar my guy ever refused to sit for. This was way back and tried it for only a couple sessions so no real harm done other than the view he had of it. Wish I had done more research.

Kudos to you!

@Bentwings1 For a my way or the high way trainer it sounds like you had a really fair drill instructor. I tested the prong on myself leg, arm and neck before putting it on my dog. Knowing the feel and what amount of pressure/collar snap I gave to myself helped make me very aware of keeping the leash loose when not needed. That was a good post.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Heartandsoul said:


> Ive been following and wished I hadn't fouled up on the ecollar. It is the only collar my guy ever refused to sit for.


They don't work very well for sit. Think about this...the dogs move AWAY from the pressure (stim) so the collars have to be wrapped around their waist with the collar on their backs in order to work for a Sit. And I have seen people do that. So you didn't foul it up. It just doesn't work very well for that particular command.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> They don't work very well for sit. Think about this...the dogs move AWAY from the pressure (stim) so the collars have to be wrapped around their waist with the collar on their backs in order to work for a Sit. And I have seen people do that. So you didn't foul it up. It just doesn't work very well for that particular command.



Nonononono, ya got to wrap it around the tail. :surprise:

Lol. I wasn't teaching the sit. Poor wording on my part. He refused acceptance of the collar. After the second day or so, Soon as I called him to collar up he would lay down flat and glue his face/neck to the floor. He loves getting collared up to go out so I knew I wasn't doing it right. Threw it in the drawer and never put it on him again. It was all me and not doing better research, dealing with gadgets and buttons. Wish I hadnt fouled up because he had his basics down and all I wanted it for was to be able to let him off leash and use it to get his attention. he is so zoned in with his scenting and zones out on everything else.

And again big kudos for Mozilla for doing the research.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Heartandsoul said:


> Nonononono, ya got to wrap it around the tail. :surprise:
> 
> Lol. I wasn't teaching the sit. Poor wording on my part. He refused acceptance of the collar. After the second day or so, Soon as I called him to collar up he would lay down flat and glue his face/neck to the floor. He loves getting collared up to go out so I knew I wasn't doing it right. Threw it in the drawer and never put it on him again. It was all me and not doing better research, dealing with gadgets and buttons. Wish I hadnt fouled up because he had his basics down and all I wanted it for was to be able to let him off leash and use it to get his attention. he is so zoned in with his scenting and zones out on everything else.
> 
> And again big kudos for Mozilla for doing the research.


I think it is one of those things that one could easily screw up as it is very easy to press the button. Also one needs to do some trial and error, and when not blessed with having a super experienced trainer around, it could get tricky. The dogs need time to process...

I screwed up twice in the early part of the journey where he did vocalise. I jumped into play and treat for him to think it was nothing. I felt like **** but it was part of the trial and error process I think, probably similar to an over correction using another tool. But I went VERY careful after those two incidents. Patience and always associated things with fun and treats.

Now, since we started, we are good and consistent about it all and I think I (luckily) passed the trial and error above. I rarely go up more than 7-8. Max at 10. If you see my earlier posts about levels, you can see the progress down in the levels. I am very happy that now we communicate at that low level.

I use it very little now. Very. His off leash is good but I do have it on as a back up when he is off leash. The come is very good and unless he is going crazy in a precarious situation, I dont use it. If I do, it is a small "nick" at 7-10 depending on the distraction. I say it with the command now. I don't say "No". He gets it as communication and does not think I am correcting. He comes happily and the ratre times I use it and when he comes, I throw a party. 

I did lots of research yes, and I lucked out that my trial and error went ok. I am also now very glad that every day we can go run and play off leash in the park (not a dog park and not fenced) and that we have this communication. It gave me the peace of mind and him an amazing freedom.

We were in the desert the other day with some friends who had a Mali / Husky Mix. When we arrived, one of the people saw my remote and said what is this? I explained. She said, oh this is where you electrocute your dog. I was kind of angry and told her I would never hurt my dog. The dogs played and played. At some point, a team of off road cars passed in not very far distance. The Mali / Husky went off and went and all the group went after her and she would not stop. I told Rex, "go get her!" and I was not worried that he would not come back. He ran and ran, caught up to her, I called him back and they came. Didnt stim but it was on and I was ready. The girl who told me about the "electrocution" came and said now I get it.....They ordered one for the Mal / Mix and I offered to help. Here are some pictures of the the desert trip 

Best

Mozi


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Heartandsoul if you decide to try the e collar again at some point,if you use the same method as when you got him to accept the insecticide it would be less traumatic for you bothHe could get used to wearing it again.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Mozi, first, my apologies for the reference to your name as mozilla. It was a stupid auto correct that I didn't catch. I have to say that it is absolutely joyful reading and seeing others who have correctly mastered this tool in order to give their dogs that freedom. It just makes me smile and way back when, it was what I wished and a goal I had for my boy. But as is often times the case, with us there were several other factors that I had to take into consideration and caused the decision not to continue. A big one was the learning curve and my own abilities with things in my hand. With the length of time it took for me to master the proper use of the prong and the number of mis timed corrections and number of corrections that probably were not necessary, I just didn't want him to have to deal with another learning curve. On a funny note, one trainer wanted me to learn the clicker. And yup I couldn't get that one right either. Marking with a yes was so much easier so the trainer told me not to bother when it became so obvious. Lol.

Dogma, thanks for the suggestion, and it would be how I would approach it if I ever decided to give it a try again.

I really think this thread is a great example of how to do it right and is probably a really good incentive for others. That story of sending Rex out to bring back the husky is amazing. And thanks for sharing your learning process of it from the beginning. All three of you look so happy.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Heartandsoul The first time I got a ecollar was the dogtra arc. I tried it on Max according to all That read and time then to get him used to a working level and he was not getting it at all. Very Upset with myself and quite disappointed I put it away. A little later I just happen to get connected with a trainer who showed me how to use the ecollar. She bred gsds and did a lot of obedience and trials with her dogs and she had a Garmin sport e collar and I felt it was so much easier to use. She lived locals and went to her house. She showed me on Max who was not getting it right away as I feared I screwed him up with it. It just a few minutes and he I really saw figured it out. She then taught me how to use it. I went out and bought the garmin sport and figure I would hold onto the dogtra arc because it was past the date of return - rather selling it I kept the arc. Which is good because sometimes I use it with Luna and now I am comfortable using the arc as well. I have watched you tube videos read articles. Got the book but really hands on is what I needed and once I learned how to use the collar now I had to use the e collar and the more I used it the more comfortable I became with it.


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## Mozi (Oct 2, 2018)

Just a quick one guys, something I referenced to earlier in case someone missed it.

On www.considerthedog.com there is a course called Mastering the E Collar by Tyler Muto. I watched all youbes, read larry krohn, book, and purchased M. Ellis E collar course vids. The best most concise and "deep" information and instruction I was able to get was from Tyler's course, by far.

Cheers to all

Mozilla :grin2:


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