# Is boarding training actually effective



## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

I took my 71/2 month old female GSD to be evaluated by the head of the K9key training school on Long Island. I have been training her myself using German commands. I hoped to eventually have her be a drug detection dog. The evaluation: she us smart, very well socialized, affectionate and smart, BUT she is probably not a candidate for Schutzhund competition or drug sniffing because drug sniffing is started much much earlier. However, obediecnce classes were suggested so she can be a working dog in some capacity. Having her live with the trainer for three weeks with intensive hands on training (I would work with them at least once a week) and then 4 private additional lessons (included in price) afterward. 

Two members of the Schutzhund club, one with champion Schutzhund dogs trained by boarding, said it is remarkably effective. 
Opinions are really asked for from this group. Boarding training is not cheap, but my dog definitely needs to attain a higher level of near perfect obedience for any kind of work. BTW, the trainer admits 20 minutes cannot rule out drug snuffing, etc. Three weeks would show her actual potentials. 
Is this a legitamite and effective way to train? He also gives 8 week group lessons, etc., but the club members felt boarding training was most effective. Advice, please!!!!


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## Uniballer (Mar 12, 2002)

It comes down to the trainer: knowledge, skill, patience, and effort put into the dog. If these things are all there it can be great. If they are not then it is just a way to get your money.

I do not know the trainers or what knowledge they have. I went to K9KEY Canine Education Center to see what they had to say. Their listed accomplishments are all in schutzhund competition, not drug detection. I don't see a DEA license or anything like that listed.

To the best of my knowledge, most trainers will begin drug detection training with dogs older than 7-1/2 months. They want to see solid nerves and excellent drives (not just a nose) and it is hard to evaluate young puppies for those qualities.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Our department (and I know there are others) pulls shelter dogs older than 7 1/2 mo to train as narcotics dogs, so the age comment is odd. That said, the dog either "has it" or doesn't.

Regarding in kennel training, our trainer provides this service as well although I haven't personally done it. From what I have seen and heard, it is VERY effective and he's the first to tell you that you need to keep up on the training. I think some people get a week or two put on their dog early on and then expect them to be perfect until the day they die. It sounds like you aren't that kind of person, so it would likely be very effective for you.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Why do you want her trained as a drug detection dog?

Personally, I don't think board and train is the best way to train a pet. Training is as much about teaching you as it is about teaching the dog. Training your dog is also a great way to build and strengthen your bond...I wouldn't want to lose out on that opportunity or have someone else benefit from the bond created by working with and challenging my dog.

If you want a mostly working dog (instead of a pet that works) then I guess it is a good way to go. A lot of places that train your dog for you use complusion to get it done quickly and I've heard stories of dogs that don't listen to the owner when they get back or revert because the owner doesn't train the same or as often. Sending your dog for training isn't going to make them magically perfect and obedient, that will still require a lot of work and commitment from the owner everyday.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know a police officer that had a green dog and sent her off to board for 3 weeks for scent detection(not obedience) training. When she got her back she performed her tasks right on and the officer has kept up with her training. The owner/handler is active in competitive AKC obedience, so her dog is doing well on the job and at other venues. She did come back with a bad case of Giardia from the board & train facility. She was doing SchH but decided not to persue it, and as an active LEO search working dog, focus on her job instead.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

For detection work, it is not about the age, it is about the dog. I have pulled a number of dogs from shelters who were as old as two/three years of age and placed them as detection dogs on departments. The dog must have extreme interest in a toy or ball, great hunt drive and really strong nerves. I have never seen someone take two weeks to evaluate aptitude for that work .
As for training, in kennel training for what? SchH? Obedience? If they are good trainers both classes and in kennel are effective. It is teaching the handlers to handle and work their dogs that is the hard part. The in-kennel should offer sessions with you afterwards. Otherwise, in my opinion, you will not be getting your monies worth. Most of the training involves the owner, that is my experience anyway. The dogs are the easy part.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I can't address the board and train but you mentioned they told you she was too old to start drug detection work? That's crazy. Years ago (in the 80's) I started a canine drug detection business with a retired police chief. We utilized a K-9 officer/trainer in choosing our first dog to train from scratch. She was a 2 year old golden retriever (working line) with no training but crazy ball drive.

We hired him to train with us and she was DEA certified easily. He was so impressed with her....couldn't get over how easy she was to train and how impressive she was working. So all that to say a dog does NOT have to be stated as a very young puppy to do drug work.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

*Boarding training: replies to my request for advie*

I am a Private Infestigator, which is why I wanted to use my GSD for drug detection. I found the remarks about trailing older dogs interesting: so a 7-8 month old dog CAN be trained? As for "drive", the trainer used a ball on a stick and said she did not have enough " drive". At home, however, I myself trained her to "bring", aus, sook, in German with toys and balls. She also chases squirrels, and will try to climb the tree, so she must have a prey instinct!
On the k9key site they do mention drug and bomb detection. Since most of my friends are in law enforcement, I will ask them to check on their DEA status. 

There are around two other Schutzhund groups near NYC that are reasonably close. One is Professional Dog Trainer Serving New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. John Soares. associated with professional dog trainer servicing the new york new jersey philadelphia area - obedience, protection, sport. Another is Mid Island Schutzhund Club on Long Island. Maybe members of the forum would be kind enough to scope those out? John Soares also offers boarding training. 

I would like Bella to be evaluated by another trainer with K9 and Schutzhund background. It is not easy to evaluate a young dog in 20 minutes. To give the first trainer credit, he did NOT push for boarding training. He said I could do the 8 week group class which is quite reasonable. But I need to have a very high level of obedience from Bella, because she could also be a therapy dog, or a service dog. I have a bad back, etc, and she could assist me! 

Is boarding training more intensive and thorough? I would still be involved. Problem: who is legit? Your replies are terrific: any further advice really appreciated. I am pretty good as a non-pro trainer, but no way can I take Bella to the very high obedience levels by myself.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Regarding drive, training a retrieve is not the same thing as drive. A dog with the ball drive necessary for narcotics detection is a dog that will go through a brick wall to get a ball because they want it, not because they were told to retrieve it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rerun said:


> ... a dog that will go through a brick wall to get a ball because they want it, not because they were told to retrieve it.


I have one of those...


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Me too,lol except for her it's stick not ball. I don't think 7 months is too young either nor would I want to board my dog with someone who made such an ignorant statement- thats just me. If you continue the training she learns anywhere she'll be solid so to me if you have the time invest it training her privately with an instructor and let her be home with you. They can learn from someone else in 3 weeks, but if you don't continue it it was 3 weeks wasted


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I have one of those...


Yes, we do too. Akira is obscessed. She brings us every single ball in the house or yard 24/7. Every cuz, kong ball, treat ball, everything. If it's even remotely "ball shaped" it's in her mouth. 

She even holds whichever ball she has (prefers the cuz's and kong ball) while she POTTIES! If you go out with her, she will totally forget to stop and potty and immediately breaks into a pretty good gallop doing a solid perimeter search for a ball in the yard.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

nygoldengirl said:


> I found the remarks about trailing older dogs interesting: so a 7-8 month old dog CAN be trained?
> 
> As for "drive", the trainer used a ball on a stick and said she did not have enough " drive". At home, however, I myself trained her to "bring", aus, sook, in German with toys and balls. She also chases squirrels, and will try to climb the tree, so she must have a prey instinct! It is not easy to evaluate a young dog in 20 minutes.
> 
> Is boarding training more intensive and thorough?


Yes, an older dog can be trained.

You can usually get a pretty good impression of a dog in 20 minutes and if this trainer doesn't think your dog has enough drive, she probably doesn't. She has some drive as you have described, but for a SchH or drug dog, she needs to be high drive. There is no reason you can't get a second opinion from someone else though.

Boarding training can be very intensive and thorough at the right place and with good follow up on your part, but my opinion is that if you don't know how to train your own dog - with help - then it's almost impossible to keep that training once you have the dog home.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

Bella won't go through a wall for a ball, but she would try to climb a tree for a squirrel! Anyway the trainer just swung a ball on a stick a few times. I think she got bored. When I play fetch and seek and release using German commands, at home, she definitely likes it! For a while! Being a puppy still, she gets bored and tired or distracted. I don't know if he assessed her correctly. As for training, I do need a real pro. She deserves to be a working dog, and an obedient one. Advice is just terrific on this forum!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

A high drive dog will not get bored with a ball on a string and should have gone nuts when he did that. I know you want her to be a working dog, but it may not be in the cards for her. Get a second opinion as you aren't happy with the first one.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

I do know how to train my dog.... In a few weeks, she went from an adopted country dig to a dog who heels almost perfectly, stays, sits, waits for my command to eat, retrieves, searches, releases, knows I go first through every entrance... Not 100% of the time by any means, but darn well! All in German and English! She is probably one of the few dogs in NYC who actually walks on a leash properly by my left side and slightly behind me. Not to say I am a professional trainer, I am not, but I do not wish to be categorized as an owner who can't or won't train their dog. I AM her trainer!
Only a fool thinks they know it all. I know I am not a Pro. It is SMART , not lazy or weak, to seek help from pros. My sister-in-law WAS a schutzhund and guard dog trainer, for businesses like Macy's, etc., and SHE says for an amateur, I have done a terrific job! Her health makes training difficult for her now. Otherwise, she said SHE would take my dog and work with her'...of course expecting me to follow through! Please, don't think seeking high level obedience training means the owner is ineffectual. In my world, it means the owner is smart! If seeking help from others and professionals meant owners are lazy or incompetent, then why does this forum exist? 
Wise people always are willing to LEARN. I have learned much from this forum. Dies that make me a dog Mistress(I am not her mother) who is lazy or ineffectual?


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

nygoldengirl said:


> My sister-in-law WAS a schutzhund and guard dog trainer, for businesses like Macy's, etc.,


Ok my curiosity has the better of me. In what capacity would Macy's (a department store) have a schutzhund or "guard" dog?


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I don't think anyone was implying you couldn't train your dog- most of us train our own dogs but do professional obedience with them to fine tune skills or get through rough patches we don't understand. IMO board training is great if you have the time to keep up what they learned there and are willing to use their methods, but the money could easily be spent on private training that would be just as effective.

Have you inquired about the methods they use to train, seen a training session, or spoke with past clients? If anyone is taking my dog anywhere or training my dog in any capacity those are things that are on the top of my list to ask. I would want a place that tailors training methods to my dogs personality. For instance my female GSD is high drive, but not super hard. She doesn't require much compulsion to get the job done though she doesn't react to it negatively either. However, a softer dog will not do well with certain methods that would be successful with another dog. In a nutshell this place has to be a good match for Bella which is why I would consider some private lessons with them first to see what their philosophy and styles are.

On drive a high drive dog will not tire at her age with a flirt pole though those of us with crazy dogs wish they would,lol They will not bore or even consider giving up even after successfully getting to "win" the game- they want more and you have to end the game for them. Zoe will yank your arm out of socket when playing tug, never stops fetching a stick, and goes psycho over her flirt pole wild dog growling and all. I wish I had the time, money, and a local place to hone her drive into something productive to be honest, but alas I don't

I think though even a moderate drive dog could still be a great working dog so don't be too bummed about this places assessment of her drive. Motivation to work will just be more of an issue but you can find what makes her tick- it's different for every dog. Since she won't be working as a K-9 and will be for your use only go for it with the narcotics training and definitely get a professional to get you guys started. If this place isn't a good fit find another


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

nygoldengirl said:


> I do know how to train my dog.... In a few weeks, she went from an adopted country dig to a dog who heels almost perfectly, stays, sits, waits for my command to eat, retrieves, searches, releases, knows I go first through every entrance... Not 100% of the time by any means, but darn well! All in German and English! She is probably one of the few dogs in NYC who actually walks on a leash properly by my left side and slightly behind me. Not to say I am a professional trainer, I am not, but I do not wish to be categorized as an owner who can't or won't train their dog. I AM her trainer!
> Only a fool thinks they know it all. I know I am not a Pro. It is SMART , not lazy or weak, to seek help from pros. My sister-in-law WAS a schutzhund and guard dog trainer, for businesses like Macy's, etc., and SHE says for an amateur, I have done a terrific job! Her health makes training difficult for her now. Otherwise, she said SHE would take my dog and work with her'...of course expecting me to follow through! Please, don't think seeking high level obedience training means the owner is ineffectual. In my world, it means the owner is smart! If seeking help from others and professionals meant owners are lazy or incompetent, then why does this forum exist?
> Wise people always are willing to LEARN. I have learned much from this forum. Dies that make me a dog Mistress(I am not her mother) who is lazy or ineffectual?


Whoa! I have read this whole thread and haven't seen anyone attacking you. What in the world are you talking about? Is this because your dog might not have enough drive to be a working dog? Nothing wrong with that, most dogs don't but that doesn't mean they can't be great pets or do obedience.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I think for what the OP is looking to do with her dog drive may not hinder him/her honestly. This isn't a dog that is going to be a K-9, compete nationally, or work daily. The person is a private investigator and wants to teach some tracking and scenting skills which any dog regardless of drive can learn and use. Obviously the duration this dog may be able to effectively work may be shorter but I don't see this dog working from 9-5 regardless of having a lower drive anyway. I also think the OP does want to get into obedience if I read his/her initial post right which shouldn't be negatively effected by drive either, but I do get being a little bummed by this place's comments about age and drive.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I think she took this comment personally: 



Elaine said:


> Boarding training can be very intensive and thorough at the right place and with good follow up on your part, *but my opinion is that if you don't know how to train your own dog - with help - then it's almost impossible to keep that training once you have the dog home.*


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

I don't think most people would know how to train a dog for narcotics though yes that comment was abrupt,lol Basic obedience is one thing, but private lessons using their methods before and after being sent away for training would probably be a must or the away training would be a waste.


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## Wildtim (Dec 13, 2001)

Zoeys mom said:


> I think for what the OP is looking to do with her dog drive may not hinder him/her honestly.


Actually, yes, it will. With a detector dog, it doesn't matter how long they are working they live to work. you need a dog that is constantly willing to keep searching and searching until he finds what he is looking for. he can't ever under any circumstances get bored with his task and give up.

Lets say he is searching a car and he stops searching and walks away. You have to know, without a doubt as that he has finished his search thoroughly and that the dog knows that there is nothing to find. If there is any inkling that he might ever just quit, you might as well not have the dog at all because you can't have any confidence in his work.

Additionally there may come a time, in court, or as a training requirement, that he prove his abilities and whoever is in charge of that test can't accept the answer of "he got bored". This could invalidate a find or a career.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

If she has never learned SchH or drug dog training, how is she going to know how to keep that dog trained once she gets her home? There's a big difference between doing the training she said she's already done with her dog and that kind of training. Everyone that does SchH or drug dog work learned it at some point, they didn't wake up one day with that knowledge. I wouldn't know how to keep up a drug dog's training as I've never done it and I've been training dogs since the stone age. I would have to have gone through the process of training first.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Thats why I said she should have private lessons first to learn how to train for this type of work. I couldn't train mine to drug, bomb, or other scent type training because I have zero experience in this type of work. I do some tracking with mine for fun only having them find things by name, but it's not in any way real scent work just mind stimulation,lol I just don't get the impression as a private investigator this dog is going to be used in a serious working capacity. I'm not even sure why the OP wants to train for narcotics specifically, but we don't know the whole picture yet either. 

I agree with your point on drive in some way, but this pup is young and new to the OP. Of course a real working dog can not bore, but even a high drive dog may not show the desire to work in one venue or another and need more motivation or be better suited to do other things. This pup may not pan out to be a great narcotics dog but drive is not going to be the only determining factor. Every drivey dog does not have a great nose or natural instinct to do schutz, protection, SAR, or herding. Temperament and other factors play just as much of a role in the end. I do think however, private or group narcotics training is a must before and after sending this dog anywhere as well as ensuring this place is a good match for the OP


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

Thanks for advice!!! Maybe I am lucky Bella is nit so "highdrive"! Lol!!! When j looked fir a GSD I told my sister-in-law I wanted a laid back dog. No hyper dogs. Well, she found me one! I can fall asleep and Bella just chills out in the apt or plays quietly! If I don't feel well, she knows it and just "lounges around"!!! The more I read the posts I realize I wanted a very smart dog with a non-hyper attitude, and I got one! She is sweet, affectionate, adores tummy rubs and stroking, loves doggy day care, and she is smart!

I should be very thankful for the dog I got. We looked at many, and they had bad flaws. My s-in-law said fate would determine whether i got another dog, and it did. A beautiful pure bred GSD who might have ended up who knows where has a loving home and she knows she is loved. Maybe I am getting too caught up in this "competition" thing. 

I believe Bella should be a working dog, because she is smart and can make a difference. I don't take offense at the "training" comment I replied to. Everyone here has good intentions. Actually, before turning over my dog to live with a trainer, I should know, what are his methods? I'm no pro at all but I used my s-in-law's advice, and it worked! A bad trainer us worse than none. I feel I need more expert training to correct some of her issues and make her suitable for some kind of work. She has to obey 99% of the time to be a working dog and I would say she is 50-60% now. 

But she is such a loving, good dog. Before I hand her over to someone, I want to explore further. Maybe lessons without boarding can be fine. What I learned from this forum ( about illness, behaviour, etc.,) is invaluable. You guys and gals are the best!

My husband was a Vietnam Vet who died last year from Agent Orange. He also was NYPD, so you can see where I am coming from. We started a Private Investigator business. I intend to carry on. That is why I want Bella to have a purpose.... Suited to her temperament. You all put this in perspective for me. Yes, she needs higher obedience training than I can give her, but I am her handler and any training has to involve me. I need to find an honest trainer and work with them. Will she be a drug sniffing dog? A therapy dog? A service dog? I need to know what she is suited for. She has to utilize her temperament. 

I remain completely open to advice and suggestions. I need a pro trainer, who can bring out the best in Bella. If my husband were here, he would help do it. He bred AKC dogs. But he's not here. So, fate sent me a wonderful, loving dog. All I want to do is give her a purpose besides lying around. Even if she visited Veterans in VA homes....but she needs higher obedience levels. Again, this is an execptioval forum. I SM on baby forums. Veterans. Investigators. Business. This forum is tops!!!! I am always willing to listen to
advice, and I take your advice seriously.


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

Then find a GSD club in your area and have her evaluated!!! Visit many clubs, look at all their classes and see where you two fit in. Agility, tracking, herding, therapy, SAR, schutz, conformation, and obedience are all rewarding and fun depending on what your thing is and what she will excel in. I would start with some group obedience and go from there while you are learning about other venues since all need obedience as the foundation anyway. It will bond you guys further, be great for socialization, teach you new methods of training, and of course increase her general obedience.

Then you can go from there once you have her obedience at that 99% and really know whats out there for you guys to dig into. No dog will excel all around in every sport and no club or training method is a perfect fit for every dog. Take your time and see what her strengths are and your interest is. I think taking her to visit vets would be awesome and it sounds like she may be suited for that


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

nygoldengirl said:


> That is why I want Bella to have a purpose.... Suited to her temperament. You all put this in perspective for me. Yes, she needs higher obedience training than I can give her, but I am her handler and any training has to involve me. I need to find an honest trainer and work with them. Will she be a drug sniffing dog? A therapy dog? A service dog? I need to know what she is suited for. She has to utilize her temperament.


This is absolutely the attitude I wish everyone would have. Not all dogs are suited for everything and you need to find what your dog will excel at, no matter what it is, so both of you are happy.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

It sounds like you have a very smart, sensitive, nice dog. It does not sound like this dog would easily convert to a reliable working drug detection dog. Drives and nerves are important in this training, as the dog must not only have to be ready to perform anytime or place, but in all distractions, weather, nioses, surfaces, trucks,cars, fumes exhaust, etc. And all of this is part of training the dog regardless of how you use the dog in your PI work. 
I think you have probably done a nice job with her and she makes a nice family dog and you are ahead of the game right now.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

Hello everyone. Your comments are truly enlightening. And now I have a few conclusions. I also spoke with my sister-in-law. BTW, Schutzhund training for Macy's etc is for guard dogs that patrol the stores at night, often Dobies, so she did some serious training, including obedience, Schutzhund for competition, and ATTACK. 
She knows Bella, and did not agree with that trainer's assessment, NOR with leaving the dog for training. Also I don't trust that trainer. How many of you would put a choke chain on your dog from behind? Instead of facing the dog? There is a reason I am asking!!!

I will call up some GSD clubs and seek out a qualified trainer. I will ask my friends who were/are on the job and have access to the real K9 unit. I will continue to train Bella myself. Every day I work with her. Repetition. Reinforcement. Praise. A treat. She WANTS to learn. She is very agile physically and mentally. The trainer was an idiot. He made an incorrect assessment, we don't know yet what she will develop her true capabilities for. He was WRONG about the age you must start training for drug detection. 
My s-in-law called friend who was also a trainer, and she called a trainer for the MILITARY! He said that trainer was wrong, wring, wrong. You work with the owner and the dog, not board them. Drug detection is not started very young! A shelter dog can be trained! Just because a dog does not obsess with a flirt stick does not mean the dog has no drive. Different dogs are motivated by different things. There is no one simple test. And she is still young. Consensus? The guy wanted my money. He was wrong about si many things, I would say he is not the real deal. 

We will see what Bella is capable of and any trainer WE work with will be genuine. She could have the potential for many things. What she is meant to be, she will be. Most of all she is a good affectionate smart dog and that is the most important thing! Again, your advice is most welcome.. Thank you for being such great people!


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

If you are still in contact with some of your husbands peers at the NYPD talk to some of the K-9 officers. They can give you information on drug detection training. It requires a qualified trainer to work with you and the DEA to provide the drugs. 
I was surprised at how easy the training was (for a dog with a high ball drive). It's a step by step process but the dogs get it in a hurry. Once you feel you and the dog are ready they go through a certification process. Having said that, that was years ago when I did it so it may have changed but a current K-9 unit will know the current ends and outs.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

nygoldengirl said:


> Bella won't go through a wall for a ball, but she would try to climb a tree for a squirrel! *I think she got bored*. When I play fetch and seek and release using German commands, at home, she definitely likes it! *For a while*!* Being a puppy still, she gets bored and tired or distracted*. I don't know if he assessed her correctly. As for training, I do need a real pro. She deserves to be a working dog, and an obedient one. Advice is just terrific on this forum!


I think you've assessed your own dog quite well and it has nothing to do with the trainer. You can't seem to find something that engages your dog indefinitely. Working dogs can't and don't get "bored." Yes, different dogs are attracted to different types of motivators. But you're the owner and can't find anything. She's not 8 weeks old. She's old enough that you should be able to be brining out some kind of drive by this point if you're working with her regularily.

That's not to say she can't work in some capacity. But it takes a truly unique dog to do things like drug detection.

And this is a little OT, but I guess I don't really understand still *WHY* you want her to do drug detection. You're a PI, but what exactly would you do with the drugs if she found them? I think civilians working in an official LE capacity doing things like drug detection, explosives detection, etc is on a slippery slope in the legal community if it ends up in a courtroom. And as her getting "bored" has easily has shown, just because she doesn't find them doesn't mean there isn't something there. And if you do find them you will have a lot of questions to answer in regards to chain of custody and you and your dogs qualifications.

ETA: I'm not trying to discourage you from working with her--I fully agree GSD's need a job. I just think you should think about your own answers and statements you have given in this thread. And also really think about the purpose of training her in something so tightly regulated. If she's lower drive it will take much longer to train her and maintain her level of excellence. If you don't readily have access to the training "supplies" (in this case drugs), I think it will not be easy to keep up with an acceptable level of work. But there are lots of other things you can have her do much easier on her own. Having her find hidden toys, etc would offer her the same type of mental work.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I have one of those...


So do I. Not only that she will put it through the wall herself just so she can go get it. At the moment she is pushing a tennis ball down the stairs, chasing it and bringing it back up to push it again........

But that is off-topic. I have a friend who board-trained their dog and the dog bonded to the trainer, took them a while to get him to obey them like he did the trainer.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think it is fair to trash the trainer. I would just move on. You ask questions about training, then you judge the trainers ability on things that it is obvious you have little foundation. Training at a boarding place can be successful and it can be a disaster. Depends on dog and facility. 
It sounds to me like he recognized that your dog probably wouldn't be a good candidate for drug detection as a vocation, so he tried to instead get you to let him/her do obedience at the facility. Age doesn't have to be a requisite for narcotic training either way....BUT it definitely can be a consideration depending on the dog. Your description of your dog does not sound like a dog I would seek for drug detection....not enough drive. The type drive I am talking about is ALWAYS present unless the dog is sick or injured. 
By all means seek out other opinions, but I don't think you are schooled enough to say that trainer wasn't competent.JMO.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

As a P.I. I can run a security company. I can have a canine unit which operates in the private sector. Parents wantvtgeir homes checked for drugs, residential buildings may want to be sure no employees bring drugs...there are many reasons private security uses detection dogs. Some of my colleagues actually have canine units. Not all of them were actually even on the job. Some Investigators do SAR, which is physically demanding on the handler, so one I know stopped. However, canine detection is a business, and if an Investigator can offer that, it is part of being in our business. That said, I don't think represented my dog correctly. She comes to me bringing a toy because she wants to play search, retrieve, release. I probably tire of it first. She is also highly motivated by a desire to please. Since I do have contacts with the NYPD and security firms I will use those resources. DEA clearance would not be a problem. And many uses for these dogs is not court oriented. Those issues have been adressed by the accepted use of private canine units. 
It sounds like I am trying to defend my dog's abilities. I am not. My attitude jn life is always "don't tell me what I can't do, tell me what I can do". And without going into detail, this approach has worked for me. 

Since shelter dogs have been successfully trained for K9 type and SAR work, I draw no conclusions about my dog's "drive". The desire and ability to please the owner, obvious intelligence, are very important. She is growing at a tremendous rate, faster than I expected. Growth takes energy, she is still a puppy, she still naps occasionally, and I suspect she will be quite large and powerful. Her ultimate abilities cannot be predicted yet, but first step is perfecting her obedience. That is the foundation for everything. 

I am very glad she is not a hyper dog. I don't believe a working dog needs to be hyper. They need stamina, focus and ability. 

The main thing that came out of this thread so far is to be very wary of trainers who want to take your money and are wrong about dog training facts anyway. No one puts a choke on from behind. No one who has trained dogs that I know of. He was inaccurate, and absolutely I want to train with my dog. I also know noone knows a dog quite like their owner. All possibilities are open. With proper advanced training and maturity her capabilities will become clear. Hey, no one except Secretariat's owner thought he would amount to anything, or win anything, not even her husband! But she said: he can, and he
did. 

If anyone in the NYC area hears of or knows of a good trainer, GSD club, Schutzen club, etc, give a holler. As always, I am eager to listen and learn from this forum.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

nygoldengirl said:


> Since shelter dogs have been successfully trained for K9 type and SAR work, I draw no conclusions about my dog's "drive".


 They do not just adopt any dog and train is to be a narcotics dog. They go to the shelter specifically testing for ball drive and in a matter of minutes determine if the dog has what it takes.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

No one is saying a shelter dog cannot do the work. Lots do and I know a rescue in my area who regularily supplies dogs to local LE agencies for drug work. They are basing the opinions off the numerous descriptions you've given about your dog. 

You've had some input from some very experienced people who are basing their thoughts on the dog from the very things you've said (and I'm not talking about myself  ). But good for you for trying.

Also, I don't think anyone who knows what they are talking about would say any good working dog is hyper. There is a huge difference between hyper and the absolute NEED to work until you tell them to stop.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

nygoldengirl said:


> *I don't believe a working dog needs to be hyper. *They need stamina, focus and ability.


Agreed. But nobody is arguing that they do - Halo isn't hyper at all, she spends an awful lot of time flat out on the floor at home. But she will kill herself trying to get a ball. As Rerun said, it's not where the dog comes from that's important, it's that the dog has what it takes. It either does or it doesn't.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

To Cliffson1: I have no idea why your post is so ad hominem, You don't know me, you don't know my dog, you don't know the trainer. I most certainly have a foundation. I have owned a GSD before, my husband worked with a K9 unit at one time, my sister-in-law TRAINED dogs for 25 years, as did her friend, and you don't train Dobies for guard duty at Macy's if you don't know what you are doing. She knows my dog, and her words to me this morning were very apt. Don't allow anyone to put you or your dog down, don't allow anyone to discourage you, and certainly don't let anyone upset you. 

I am on so many forums, for Vietnam Veterans, for Investigators, I OWN AND MODERATE a very big forum and list serv. The first rule is always never speak ad hominem and put another person down. 

The other members here who posted their thoughts were being supportive and gave their opinions in a non ad hominem fashion. I respect their views. But you are making assumptions about people and animals you do not know anything about, and in a manner I find unpleasant. There is never any good reason to do that. If everyone posted like that, I would not ask any advice about anything. But the other members were trying to be constructive, so I will put your words out of my mind and concentrate on the good things in this forum. Too bad my dog can't read....I wonder what she would post? 

I still welcome advice from all those who have taken the time to give thoughtful opinions. We can differ, but people should always be civil, and they were and are. My grateful thanks to them.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> By all means seek out other opinions, but I don't think you are schooled enough to say that trainer wasn't competent.JMO.


 Agree with Cliff here. The trainer may not be for the OP but he did assess the dog correctly, and offered his professional advice. 

I also do not understand why your sister-in-law can't train you and the dog. If she can talk, she can train. You sure can put Cliff's words out of your mind but that will be your loss and only yours LOL


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Nygoldengirl, you're taking things too personally again. I didn't see anything in Cliff's post that was a put down to you. Just because you've owned GSDs and trained them before by yourself doesn't mean that you could successfully train a dog to compete in Schutzhund or as a working drug detection dog. Why would pointing out the obvious offend you? If what he said wasn't true, you wouldn't be here looking for training help. That's not a slam on you - there are very few experts here and the rest of us have needed help training our dogs from time to time. There's no shame in that! 

I ALWAYS take at least several OB classes with each new dog, and I know I always will. Because I've never trained a dog in Schutzhund before I probably wouldn't know a good trainer from a bad one in that venue, and I wouldn't be offended if someone pointed that out to me since it would be a simple statement of fact. 

And as far as your dog and her potential, that was based on your own description of her. He didn't say she was a bad dog, but not all dogs are suitable as a working candidate and there's nothing wrong with that. You said she's "very well socialized, affectionate and smart", and that's wonderful! A lower drive dog who is well socialized and likes people would be a _great _candidate as a therapy dog in nursing homes or hospitals. Not "work" in the way you're thinking of it, but a very worthy and rewarding job for her that might be the perfect thing. 

But if you're bound and determined to go down this path, it's best that you find someone to help you train your own dog. You said your SIL has health issues that prevent her from taking your dog and training her for you, but wouldn't she have contacts for other trainers in the area, or maybe she could help you train your dog rather than doing it for you. No matter what you do, the handler needs to learn too, not just the dog, so you should be very involved in the process.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

Well, your post was on point. I don't think I described my dog with working potential attributes, since guys who were on the job have met her and were impressed with her as a candidate for being a working dog. I was focusing on her as a really "good" dog, meaning no character flaws, affectionate, intelligent, well socialized. Isn't this the most important of attributes? When my sil said I would ONLY adopt a GSD IF that dog passed all her requirements, she meant it. She was looking fur soundness of body (great hips), beauty of form, and soundness of temperament. I can't tell you all how many digs we looked at who upon a second or third visit exhibited really bad traits. I had given up when a GSD rescue breeder emailed me about Bella. One look at her photos, my sil said let's drive the three + hrs to Alamagordo and look at her. She was so thin...her ears were so huge... My sil spent an hour there and said "this is the one". Fate intervened. Bella is pure bred, no doubt. No one who has seen her, including the trainer I visited, doubted that. Why did she end up a stray? Did she escape her kennel? Did a breeder or family abandon her because of financial or housing situations? We will never know. But she is in her "forever home" now! She might have died on the streets, a young pup, but now she knows she is secure, loved, safe. She was a "gift" of fate to me. 

Yes, a friend of mine from the job is going to have the NYPD unit look at her. Their opinion is what counts. If they see potential for narcotics, etc, then they will guide me. My friend believes she could actually be a K9 dog....and trust me, he knows. Would I give her up? To maybe save a cop's life? It would be very hard. 

The bottom line is, whatever NYPD K9 tells me, I go with. My friend worked K9 and rose to the to the top levels of the job. He knows my dog, and says she has "the right stuff". And wants her evaluated. But somewhere here we are getting too personally involved. It's not a competition we are supposed to be dog lovers. 

My innocent question unleashed a lot of comments, all carefully read, and evaluated. Maybe I did not describe my dog and her "drives" accurately. I trust my sil. If she says, within the span of less than two months, I took a smart but untrained dog to where she understands virtually all Schutzhund German commands, heels perfectly, retrieves, releases, searches, sits, stands, lies down, stays (even with my back turned), is socialized, goes on natural alert when she sees something "odd", will not touch her food without my command, and obeys SILENT hand signals, well, that's not bad considering I am not a pro trainer but I was taught by a pro, my sil. I owe her a debt for training me. 
I think my dog got a bit shortchanged here. Compared to what I see in NYC streets with owners on cellphones, their dogs completely not under any kind of control, owners letting small dogs act aggressively toward big dogs, like mine, and meanwhile she heels, ignores 99% of barking troublesome dogs, we practice turns and achtung commands and sitz and bleib, constantly....well, I think somehow Bella, who can't speak for herself, got a bad rap here. 

She already attained the highest level: she is a balanced, well adjusted, loving affectionate , smart, "mostly" obedient, and very alert dog. And she is not destructive!!! She can amuse herself, if I don't feel well, she checks on me and then busies herself with her toys. Does she have a prey instinct? Well, she will try to climb a tree to catch a squirrel, she remembers every tree and place she saw a squirrel, and she is lightening 
quick.bas for ball drive, I don't even want to go there. 

Unbeknownst to me, my late husband had our GSD trained by K9. She had anxattack command he would never give me, until toward the end of his life. Did that dog protect and guard me? Yes!!!!! When a real threat approached and I called her softly did she come out of nowhere to lean into me with her body and crouch for a possible attack? Yes!!! Did she like to chase balls and toys? No!!!! She did not fetch, chase, or play "human" games. If you threw a ball and she retrieved it, when you threw it the farthest, she would sig back and look at you like "why should I go after it? Now that it's far away, you silly "pack leader" do the work. And my husband would be upset. I would say, Holly doesn't do tricks. She is playing you, not you playing her". Abd he had to agree. Was she ball driven? Heck, no. Was she K9 trained? Yes. Dud she play fetch? Heck no. She would look at you like, you silly pack leader. Why don't you get your own ball"?
Would she have given her life to protect me? Yes!!! She was a fearsome dog....and could smell anything!!!! Was she ball driven? No! She knew her job. She was K 9 trained, and she had no interest in chasing balls. Squirrels and rats yes. 

Point of story! I am kind of sorry I posted my query originally. I will not be put in the position of defending my dog and her potential. There is too much competitiveness among SOME members. I asked for guidance in finding kegutamite training and evaluation of my dog. And she is my "dog". Not my child. I an not her mother I an ger mistress, her owner. So much emotion was stirred up and my dog abd u, whom no one knows, received unneccessarily pompous feedback, not by most, but by some. I would think twice about posting another question. Too much competitiveness and rush to firtekk my dog's future. A forum should be for support and guidance. Most posts were but some were really high handed. Don't badmouth or categorize my dog and me, when you havenot even enough facts to go on. I find that offensive. On the part of some not most. As for myself and my much denigrated dog, I am not in a competition. I thought I was in a GSD forum of dog lovers. To those who offered constructive advice whether ornot I agreed with it, thank you. To those who were ad hominem, you made an honest request for adviceinto sine kind of adversarial contest. And you discouraged me from posting. To give predictions about a dog's future based on a fixation with ball drive, without even knowing the facts, is ludicrous. On a list serv or forum, first rule is never talk down to people or presume they are uninformed. The majority of respondents, whether or not I agreed with them, were logical, friendly and from the heart. But some were out of line. Never oust ad hominem. Never. 

I wish all a happy Thanksgiving. Please remember our troops who are in harm's way, far from home and family. Their sacrifices gives us the freedom to say whatever we wish. Freedom comes at a bitter price. Even dogs have given their lives to keep us safe. As a widow of a Vet, and a NYer in 9/11, I say, Never Forget


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Nygoldengirl,
First, I want to say that I apologize if you felt that I was trying to be mean. I was not. I thought you opened up this post asking for advice. I did not know the advice had to agree with what you plan to do anyway, or it would be frowned upon. 
I was trying to give some informed advice based upon what was described by you. True, I don't know you or your dog, but the impression I got was that you were seeking someone else to assist you in this training anyway. I do know what it takes to be successful as drug detection dog. I WAS a military dog trainer for years. I was a principal instructor for narcotic contraband dogs in the military. I do now consult for two police training academies in both patrol dog training and narcotic work. I only say this to give you a point of reference as to why I came to my opinion from what you wrote. I have worked with hundreds of narcotic contraband dogs. Is it possible that your dog can be successful at this, based on what you wrote and what I know....yes. Do I think the odds are in your favor based on what I KNOW and based on what you described......not really. 
So it comes down to should I give an opinion that makes you feel good or should I give a opinion based on my experience?????
Most dogs don't have what it takes to be a successful drug detection dog...I said "successful" from the beginning in my post.
Once again I apologize to you for giving my opinion based on experience. Sometimes being honest is not well received.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

Cliffson1,No offense taken. You are being honest, and now that I know your background, I do take what you say seriously. Maybe you are right. I guess time will tell. I really want to have her trained well, as a dog, and work with a trainer, not board her out. Finding a good trainer is not easy. I put her in a Petco class...you get what you pay for. We meet in an aisle of the store, with a flimsy barrier, customers interrupting the session. Enough said on that, lol! I need an excellent training program. 

As for her future, I will have her evaluated, and it maybe your assessment is correct. Or she may show promise. I don't regret posting my question on the forum now because it made me think about finding what is best for my dog, not what I want her to be. 

So in the end, I have learned a lot, and I know you were not "attacking" me or the dog! No harm done, you were right to give your honest opinion. I do feel training should include the owner, and this boarding concept is not for my dog. She suffered enough " separations" and while she has no separation anxiety, she has bonded with me and we should train together. Since many will take your money and deliver little, I need to really research. Maybe my friends from LE can help. 

I will continue to learn things from these forums. Have a great holiday!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Very classy response, NYgoldengirl, everything is fine!!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

nygoldengirl said:


> As for her future, I will have her evaluated, and it maybe your assessment is correct. Or she may show promise. I don't regret posting my question on the forum now because it made me think about finding what is best for my dog, not what I want her to be.


:thumbup: Even if it turns out that she's not going to be what you want her to be, it's pretty clear that she IS and will continue to be a very loved and lucky dog.


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## nygoldengirl (Sep 5, 2010)

Thank you, everyone! I was arrogant to dismiss your advice, but I now understand your advice was, utilize the dog's desire as well as capabilities. I am blessed with a wonderful dog. I promise to post pix. Her disposition is sterling. That is everything. My sister-in-law said fate would determine whether she found the right dog for me, and and she was right My husband would have loved this dog. I know that. I am blessed to have her, and she is in her forever home. She is loved, and in return, she gives love. That is everything!

Thank you, dear forum members, for your honest posts. What will Bella become? I think she has the smarts to become anything, but she needs to become what makes her happy. Not what makes me happy. She MAY become a drug dtwction dog, she nay be a service dog ( with my bad back I may need one, lol). She may be a therapy dog and bring joy to Vets like my husband, who served his country in Nam and hus city on the job, and his death is a direct result of Agent Orange and combat. Dead at 61, too young, too sad for words to express. But he would have loved Bella. So, fellow forum members fate works in mysterious ways. You are a terrific bunch, I was too resistant to your heartfelt comments, and I apologize for my hubris. 

Thank you for caring enough to post your honest opinions. I promise to keep you updated on the Bella Chronicles, my sister-in-law's description of my adventures of life with the dog she said was meant for me.... And in memory of my husband who bred dogs, loved them, and had to see our last noble GSD put down because of cancer. 

Have a wonderful Thankgiving, all of you terrific forum members. I am truly I
open to your advice, and I value it. Whatever Bella becomes, you made me realize the gift of a wonderful dog is in itself everything, and she has to fulfill her own destiny!


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## Zoeys mom (Jan 23, 2010)

You have a great attitude with Bella and whatever it is you do with her will she will bring you joy. Training GSD's is never a thankless job for sure. Just remember to really study up on all the possibilities with her while her obedience is being fine tuned. Agility is fun and something she sounds suited for but there are several outlets for you two. With obedience being the foundation of any work focus on getting a great trainer and enrolling in a group class for socialization. You may meet some great friends and find out about other doggy opportunities in your area


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

nygoldengirl said:


> What will Bella become? I think she has the smarts to become anything, but she needs to become what makes her happy. Not what makes me happy.


Exactly! 



> She may be a therapy dog and bring joy to Vets like my husband, who served his country in Nam and his city on the job...


That would be absolutely wonderful, and what a loving tribute to the husband that you lost too soon. :hugs:


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