# Ethics/puppy problems



## CooperS7777 (May 2, 2012)

This is my first post on here, but I've been reading and learning for quite a while now.

My girlfriend and I have been looking into getting a gsd for the past ~18 months. We've changed plans and held off many times to ensure both that the ppt was right for us and that the timing was right on our end for the puppy. After much research and a few kennel visits we had decided on a breeder. The time was right (summer/fall 2012) and so we put a deposit down. We found no negative reviews of the breeder nor did we hear any from our local vet through his contacts. The blood lines seemed great and the dogs beautiful. We're not looking for a show dog nor are we looking for a strong work dog; we simply want a great addition to our family and a new companion. 

The initial litter we wanted a pup from was sold prior to the breeding and prior to our deposit. This wasn't an issue and we again decided to wait it out for a later breeding that was being offered. Approximately 8 weeks after the puppies were born from our first pick litter, a male became available. 

After talking with the breeder I was informed he was missing a couple of toes; the reason he was now available. I was told he had been this way from birth and assumed a birth defect. The pup is normal and just as active as his litter mates; however does limp after longer walks/play sessions. After digging deeper into the issue and asking the breeder some more questions, I found that he is missing all of his back toes on one paw and two on the front paw.

I personally feel that this could have and should have, been prevented. My question regarding ethics is more for myself than the breeder; part of me (probably my heart) feels like talking the pup and making him our own. Another part wants to ensure the pup receives the best he can, and wonders if our lifestyle and his "handicap" would be the best match for him.

I guess my questions here are; what would you do? What are some worries/concerns about a dog with missing toes like this? 

What about the breeder? As I said the breeder had(has) a spotless track record and all of their dogs are well cared for. I understand that things happen, accidents, mistakes; call it what you will, and that we're all (except our best friends!) human, but none the less I am taken back a bit. 

Sorry for the long read, and thank you all who can offer advice.

-Coop


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

That's a lot of toes missing. What you would be looking at long term are sores on the feet from abnormal wear and skeletal problems because he's going to be walking differently which is going to throw the rest of his body off. How bad the problem will be is hard to say and no way to tell when the problems will set in.

I used to have greyhounds and they frequently came with missing toes due to track accidents. Depending on which toe and how many toes were missing, they had issues with feet and leg arthritis and spinal alinement issues long term. 

It's totally up to you whether you want to chance long term structural problems with him or not. At least you are aware of the problem and can make a more informed decision.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

This puppy should not be sold in my opinion....if you would choose to take on the responsibility of a puppy who has deformities like this, the breeder should be happy to have found a good home for him, and your deposit returned when you take on this puppy!

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Lee, no charge from the breeder to whoever decides to take on a pup in that condition. I hope you consult an ortho vet before deciding on this commitment. 
I'm curious to see the pedigree on this breeding.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Have you talked to a vet to see what might be in the puppy's future?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah we have a little foster who had a severe toenail infection and it took two surgeries to get it cleared. They almost had to remove the toe - which would have been easier - but the vet worked very hard to save it, due to the implications of just having one toe missing.



> Approximately 8 weeks after the puppies were born from our first pick litter, a male became available.


This is so strange. 
A breeder would know as soon as a puppy was born it had such a significant "defect", and what, at 8 weeks, when the puppies were ready to go, the buyer came and saw the issue and refused the puppy??


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Is the breeder having you purchase the dog? If so, decline right away. This pup should not be sold. It should be given away to a home that is made fully aware of the pup's condition and fully educated about possible issues.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> Yeah we have a little foster who had a severe toenail infection and it took two surgeries to get it cleared. They almost had to remove the toe - which would have been easier - but the vet worked very hard to save it, due to the implications of just having one toe missing.


Yup this reminded me of Nikon's ordeal last year and that only involved ONE toe. Luckily he avoided surgery and the vets tried hard to make that happen. They were more concerned about it than I was, thinking "oh it's just *one* toe" but they really did not want to remove even a part of it. After that ordeal I would never *buy* a dog that was already missing toes. The breeder should have the dog evaluated by a vet and then adopt it out as a pet not sell it.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

First I would say that it's great that the breeder was up front with you about his problems. I agree that no one should have to pay for a pup like this. The breeder would be more than lucky simply place him with a family. 
Now, should you get him? I've raised more stray, injured and orphaned animals than I can remember. But, I was their only option. This pup already has someone that is (or should be) responsible for him. You folks are looking for dog that can become a member of your family and enrich your lives. Missing that many toes is one heck of a congenital defect. What else may show up in the future? He is already showing soundness problems after running and playing. It's not going to get better, and his issues may become a LOT worse. It just looks like a lot of money and heartache for you. 
My thought is that you should just not feel sorry for the pup. Walk away from the situation, and let the breeder deal with their own dog. You guys have waited this long for a new member of your family. Just wait for the right one.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

No way.
As many problems as this breed is prone to already, there is no way I would take a puppy that has a defect from the get-go. 
The time will come when a dog has to be nursed along because he is old, but there really should be many good, healthy years before that happens. Why take a dog who has issues from the very beginning?


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Sometimes a new mother will have an accident when she is starting to chew through the umbilical cord on a newborn pup. I know of a dog who is missing 2 rear toes and a few inches of his tail from his mom biting them off right after birth. He's a healthy and active adult now--I don't think he's had any problems from it. I would be shocked and worried about the mom's instincts and nerves if this happened and she was an experienced mother--was she panicked and not taking due care in cleaning off her newborn pup?

It's a rather horrifying accident to have happen, but it doesn't imply any genetic problem or neglect on the part of breeder.

That said, I can't imagine not knowing about this issue from the time the pup was born. Perhaps the original buyers were first OK about it and later changed their mind. Perhaps the breeder didn't inform them early on--impossible to know the whole story there.

I agree with the other posters, though--this pup should be placed for free or at a very minimal price.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I would definitely be looking for a loving family, talking to vets as suggested - there are some pretty cool things with prosthetics and braces now. 

Special-Needs-Success-Page You can see 2 there - one is for the bottom 1/3 or so of Kyah's leg and then a brace for Jerry's Beanie Baby leg (it's smooshy!). Halo on the female page has one too, but it's not fitted well and needs to be sent back. I don't know if anything helps "just" missing toes but good to ask about! 

I see nothing wrong with taking in a less than perfect dog if you are looking for a solid pet (and not a jogging partner probably - but again - vet) if you want to. People have dogs with EPI, Mega-E, other ortho issues, etc, etc. The thing about the dogs I linked to is that they are very happy dogs and have no idea that they are special. Other than...normal special!


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## CooperS7777 (May 2, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the replies; the dealer is still asking 1/2 price for the dog which is still a significant amount of money. I don't mind paying a premium for a dog, and cost isn't (to a point) a limiting factor as to what we get.

I left it vauge in my initial post but the toes were lost due to a loss of circulation when the pup was whelped. Apparently the mother had the littler at night and the breeder was unaware; they were born on a cold floor. ;/


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I had a foster who had a growth near a toe and the vet removed the entire toe for safety and to prevent recurrence. It was not noticeable, it did not bother her at all. I don't think the two toes missing will cause a problem.
All toes missing may, but there are some wonderful braces available for dogs nowadays, I think this can be managed relatively easily.
If you don't plan on agility or jogging, this should not be a major issue.
I would get the pup, he deserves a loving home too. I agree with others, the breeder should not charge you.


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## Danielle609 (Jun 18, 2011)

IMHO opinion, I would pay 1/2 price for a dog with a defect that doesn't hinder its health in any way, like a kinked ear or something to that effect. I do not think I would pay significant money for a dog that will likely need medical attention. Not to say he doesn't need a loving home, but I think it is the breeder's responsibility to find it a loving home and not worry about still making a penny. If it were me I would pass and wait for the next litter. You are not obligated to take on this pup, unless you really want too of course. Good luck


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

It makes me a bit unhappy that the breeder is still trying to get money for their puppy. Your original title with the word "ethics" is a good one and should not be missed. I don't breed dogs, but I used to breed race horses. I have a 4 yr old that was hurt as a yearling in the paddock. He is sound until he is put into any type of work. I have significantly more money in him then a litter of puppies. He is my responsibiliy as his breeder. I would be MORE than happy if someone wanted him as a pasture ornament for free. That is the ethical thing to do. What is their main concern? Is it a loving home for the puppy, or trying to make money? I would walk away.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

CooperS7777 said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies; the dealer is still asking 1/2 price for the dog which is still a significant amount of money. I don't mind paying a premium for a dog, and cost isn't (to a point) a limiting factor as to what we get.
> 
> I left it vague in my initial post but the toes were lost due to a loss of circulation when the pup was whelped. Apparently the mother had the littler at night and the breeder was unaware; they were born on a cold floor. ;/


Seriously?
Find another breeder.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I agree. My breeder sleeps in the same room with the bitch starting when she's getting close. He's spent several days on a cot before they actually do whelp, then usually spends several more afterwards, making sure everything goes smoothly. I think this is the norm for most breeders.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I guess I don't see it even as an ethics issue-the breeder has said what the puppy has and what they are charging for the puppy-the buyer can decide what they want to do...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If you pass on the dog will the breeder return your deposit so you can buy a dog from someone else? If you take this dog, will he fit into your lifestyle? Are you active, do you plan to do any sports with the dog where the disability won't allow him to participate? I would also consult with an orthopedic vet, who can tell you if the puppy's stance and posture due to the loss of toes will affect his carriage as he grows and put pressure on joint or bones that could cause other physical problems. This isn't a simple issue or decision.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Sunflowers said:


> Seriously?
> Find another breeder.


Ditto to this. A good breeder would know the moment a bitch is going to whelp, or within 24hrs, if they were paying attention.

As for Layla's toe, I can relate, Liesje - I was thinking "just cut it off, that'd be easier" and the vet explained that toe does a lot of weight bearing and is needed for balance.
I can't imagine how having multiple toes gone would affect how a dog walks but I'm sure it's significant. 

Layla already has some brain damage that causes her to walk unsteady so I'm glad our vet did the surgeries on her, although it did take two to eradicate the infection. 
Her toenail now grows out wonky...but we didn't think she'd ever get one back.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

holland said:


> I guess I don't see it even as an ethics issue-the breeder has said what the puppy has and what they are charging for the puppy-the buyer can decide what they want to do...


I'll tell you why this is an ethics issue. The breeder should NEVER ask money for this puppy. We have heard "unicorn and rainbow" responses about how this puppy needs a loving home. There are great prosthetics and vet care available. REALLY!!!!! An average price WLGS is 1200-1500 the average SLGS is 2000-2500. Half that amount is a chunk of change for a handicapped puppy. Now, we do not know an impartial vets opinion re: the future of the puppy. But that should not matter. The ethics question comes from who is responsible for the puppy. The breeder is first and foremost responsible. The OP has stated some concern over the pups future. The breeder should NEVER prey on peoples emotions. EVER!!! Yes, they can try to rehome the pup. Be up front with the prospective owners. Have a full vetting done. Understand what expenses and limitations might be expected with this pup. Rehome the pup for no compensation, and be thankful that someone would step up to the plate and get them off the hook. Personally, if I have a mess, I deal with it in what ever manner it needs to be dealt with. I would NEVER dump my problems on someone else. I know we are taking about a puppy, but it is still a commodity that the breeder is trying to be compensated for.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CooperS7777 said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies; *the dealer* is still asking 1/2 price for the dog which is still a significant amount of money. I don't mind paying a premium for a dog, and cost isn't (to a point) a limiting factor as to what we get.
> 
> I left it vauge in my initial post but the toes were lost due to a loss of circulation when the pup was whelped. Apparently the mother had the littler at night and the breeder was unaware; they were born on a cold floor. ;/


So is this puppy being sold by a broker or the breeder?


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

This pup should be free to whomever wants to give it a loving home and take on the potential health ramifications. 
We have a client who bought a pup from a showline breeder in the area. The pup was sold at a discount due to a malformation of the front left foot. The third toe is about 1/4 the length/size it should be, there is a toenail that is about where the first knuckle would normally be. You can tell it was a birth issue and the dog has a bit of a lilt in the gait but is fine otherwise. 
The pup the OP describes sounds like it was due to neglect in some way and sounds like it is not the end of the health issues revolving around this.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Call me a sucker, but I would research all the medical issues, bring costs to the breeder and try to get the price lowered or free. There are not many people that would even consider taking this pup, so what will the breeder do with it when no one wants it? If they didn't know mom was having the pups, I don't think they will care enough to save this puppy.


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## Beau (Feb 12, 2012)

CooperS7777 said:


> . Apparently the mother had the littler at night and the breeder was *unaware*; they were born on a cold floor. ;/


This one sentence says it all. Walk away from this breeder.

If you feel the need to save a dog, then go find a good rescue and save one of their dogs. 

Otherwise, go find a new breeder.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

"the dealer"???


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

cindy_s said:


> I'll tell you why this is an ethics issue. The breeder should NEVER ask money for this puppy. We have heard "unicorn and rainbow" responses about how this puppy needs a loving home. There are great prosthetics and vet care available. REALLY!!!!! An average price WLGS is 1200-1500 the average SLGS is 2000-2500. Half that amount is a chunk of change for a handicapped puppy. Now, we do not know an impartial vets opinion re: the future of the puppy. But that should not matter. The ethics question comes from who is responsible for the puppy. The breeder is first and foremost responsible. The OP has stated some concern over the pups future. The breeder should NEVER prey on peoples emotions. EVER!!! Yes, they can try to rehome the pup. Be up front with the prospective owners. Have a full vetting done. Understand what expenses and limitations might be expected with this pup. Rehome the pup for no compensation, and be thankful that someone would step up to the plate and get them off the hook. Personally, if I have a mess, I deal with it in what ever manner it needs to be dealt with. I would NEVER dump my problems on someone else. I know we are taking about a puppy, but it is still a commodity that the breeder is trying to be compensated for.


Ok that is what you would do-this breeder isn't and the buyer still has a choice of not taking the pup-simple-the breeder doesnot have to give the pup for free just because that is what everyone else thinks they should do


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

I am having a hard time viewing this as an "ethical issue." The breeder disclosed the issues. Had he/she not disclosed the issues, I would view this as an ethical issue. As for the circumstances of the birth, it does not appear to be ideal and it does cause me concern. However, not knowing the whole story, I am not going to cast judgment. Nobody is perfect and stuff sometimes happens to the best of people. 

Everybody values things differently and a disagreement over price/value does not an ethical issue always make. For instance, if breeder A charges X for a litter and breeder B charges X+$500 for a very similarly pedigreed litter, should breeder B be considered unethical because they charge more? If breeder C gives puppies away to those he/she knows would provide excellent homes, does that make breeders who sell puppies to excellent homes unethical? Is it unethical for a rescue to request an "adoption fee" rather than give the dogs away for "free"? Requiring some form of payment may be a way of helping to ensure that the person who gets the pup is invested and committed, rather than someone who is looking for a freeby who may treat it as a freeby. I think you can see where I am coming from. In short, so long as the purchaser is informed and not taken advantage of, I do not see this as an ethical issue.

I understand the underlying sentiment of this thread. Personally, I would not pay for this pup and I doubt I would take it if it were available for free (easy to say when I have not seen it and had my heart melted). However, based upon the little I know, I am not willing to take the leap that because I am not willing to pay for the pup it is unethical for the breeder to attempt to sell it. Not every difference of opinion is an ethical issue. 

OP, it comes down to this: given what you know, do YOU want the dog? Are you willing to care and commit to this dog? If not, it is completely understandable. If so, bless you. Best of luck.


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## CooperS7777 (May 2, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> So is this puppy being sold by a broker or the breeder?





katieliz said:


> "the dealer"???


Sorry I misspoke here; the dog is not being brokered, he is still with the breeder. 

We are having our vet take a look at him and will see what potential future health issues the missing toes could cause.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

My opinion only, IF I were really interested in this puppy

FIrst I don't view this as an 'ethical' issue, I think they were told the truth about the puppy (and how many breeders do that?) While I do think most breeders keep a tight watch on dams that are due, I'm sure there have been 'whelpings' that happened when one was not in attendance. 

1. I would have a vet evaluate what issues/medical/financial could result as to the missing toes.

2. I probably would not pay 1000 for this puppy, if it were me (as a breeder) I would most likely just be happy to place him in a good home on a neuter contract, or charge a minimal amount. IF he was all cleared by a vet.

I'm sure no one can predict the future for this puppy in regards to physical issues, but I think having a vet evaluate can give a good indication of possibly what to expect.

Hope things work out,,Cooper did you get my last pm?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I agree with Diane and others. I do not see this as an ethics issue. They did disclose the problem. Also, giving a puppy away for free is not always the best option either since sometimes things received for free are far easier to discard (not saying this is what the OP would do). I do think the price is too high. I would walk away for other reasons if it were me.

Good that you are having a vet check done. If you live an active life and want a dog that can enjoy that life then you need to know how those missing toes will affect the dog's life. 

Do not get the puppy because you feel sorry for him or because you don't want to lose your deposit. You have to do what is best for your life. The breeder needs to do what is best for that puppy.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

CooperS7777 said:


> Thanks everyone for the replies; the dealer is still asking 1/2 price for the dog which is still a significant amount of money. I don't mind paying a premium for a dog, and cost isn't (to a point) a limiting factor as to what we get.
> 
> I left it vauge in my initial post but the toes were lost due to a loss of circulation when the pup was whelped. Apparently the mother had the littler at night and the breeder was unaware; they were born on a cold floor. ;/


The fact that the breeder knew a litter was coming and didn't have the mother in a whelping box just in case and wasn't taking temps close to her breeding dates, ect just shows these people are a sorry excuse for a "breeder". But what's done is done. The dog is here.

If they're going to charge anything, it shouldn't be over $100 IMO. That'd give them a little back for what it takes to raise a litter and you can use the rest of the "purchase" price to vet the dog.

Given that dogs DO live on less toes and even as tri-pods, I don't know that I can say for sure that this is a helpless case. A vet check is of course the best option before any choices are made but I wouldn't say this dog can't live an active/normal life. Depending on the feet the toes are missing (ie. if they're on the same side of the body or on different sides) would also be a factor IMO. If they're both on the same side, if it came down to amputation or something of that rear leg with no toes (Assuming worst case scenario here) then the dog could have problems balancing without full toes on the same side as the amputated leg. But if there is all toes missing on one side and only a couple on the other, I think this dog would honestly do just fine.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

My GSD only has two toes on one rear leg. When he was whelped his Dam chewed them off with the cord. His breeder was there when it happened, but was unaware the dam was going to chomp on both the cord and the toes at the same time. 

When I purchased him, I knew of the missing toes. We had hoped it wouldn't cause him any future problems. During the vet check, the vet said there was a good chance the paw/toes would grow in such a way that he wouldn't be bothered by it. 

Sadly, my boy is experiancing a lot of problems with his entire leg. He limps, he can't be exercised a great deal, his leg twists when he walks. We are watching for hip damage. 

Whereas he can be managed but sadly he can't live the life that he might have if he wasn't handicapped. We don't take him with us when we are going to be active all day. We take him with us when I have the capability to 'rest' him for long periods of time. No hiking - climbing - no long games of ball - he can't come with me when I go riding etc. 

BTW - When it was determined that he would have problems with his leg, my breeder offered me a full refund or my choice of a puppy within the next planned litter. As I was well aware of the missing toes at the time I picked him out, I declined both offers. He was meant to be mine.


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## CelticGlory (Jan 19, 2006)

I would go with the second litter if it was me and pass on this puppy.


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