# Does anyone know this breeder?



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I have a friend looking for a GSD pup, and she's thinking of getting a pup here:

Untitled Document

It's a different litter from the one listed on the site. Apparently, the breeder took back one of her dogs from a buyer, who was in heat and accidentally bred by one of her males, so they have an "oops" litter.

Does anyone know this breeder? It appears she has top showline dogs. PM me with any info if you don't feel comfortable posting it here. Thanks!


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*** name of breeder removed by ADMIN***


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Never heard of them, but their puppies sure are cute!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Like their water pic-the one of the dog and the little boy in the boat is cute


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Don't know the breeder. 

1. It is good that she took back the puppy. 

2. It is completely unacceptable for a breeder to _not realize_ a bitch puppy might be in heat and give full, unsupervised access to an intact male, sorry. 

If the bitch-pup came back to her in heat, how does she even know that her male was the ONLY sire to the litter. Litters can have two pops. 

I would probably tell my friend to either pass on this, but the puppies do need good homes. It is not their fault, their humans failed them. 

I think her explanation for breeding a too young bitch stinks, and I wonder what she is going to charge for the oops litter. I do not know if one should reward irresponsibility by paying more than the going rate for pups who are bred by people who throw dogs together indiscriminately, fail to do health screenings, do not work with their dogs or achieve anything with them. The pups need homes, $200 - $400 should cover the costs of the litter and then some. If they are charging more than that, well I would question whether this was indeed an oops.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> Don't know the breeder.
> 
> 1. It is good that she took back the puppy.
> 
> 2. It is completely unacceptable for a breeder to _not realize_ a bitch puppy might be in heat and give full, unsupervised access to an intact male, sorry.


The story I heard was that the bitch climbed out of her kennel. I am not sure of the particulars.



> I think her explanation for breeding a too young bitch stinks, and I wonder what she is going to charge for the oops litter. I do not know if one should reward irresponsibility by paying more than the going rate for pups who are bred by people who throw dogs together indiscriminately, fail to do health screenings, do not work with their dogs or achieve anything with them. The pups need homes, $200 - $400 should cover the costs of the litter and then some. If they are charging more than that, well I would question whether this was indeed an oops.


I think she was asking $500.

Oops litters happen, even to the best breeders. My Luka is a product of an oops breeding, which on paper was a very nice breeding, but the sire was only 14 months old and didn't have an OFA number yet. He had climbed a tree to get to the female. That litter contained some superb animals, multi-titled and working dogs, who went on to produce many excellent multi-titled and working dogs themselves. Sometimes it's a happy accident.

In any case, I am withholding judgment. My friend who is looking at the litter wants a companion dog and it will be spayed/neutered, so she's going to visit the breeder and see what she thinks. As long as the pedigree and the dogs in question are of good health and temperament, and the conditions the dogs are kept in are good, she will probably go for it--she's talked to the breeder on the phone and seems to like her. However, I know that anyone can make themselves look good via a website and a phone conversation--the breeder offered to meet my friend halfway (4 hour drive) but I told her NO WAY--you HAVE to go to the breeder's place!

So, we will see.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Freestep said:


> Oops litters happen, even to the best breeders.


Yup, they sure do! My best friend ended up with a VERY unplanned litter of belgian sheepdogs....she had very young grandchildren visiting at the time and, well, someone opened a door and, OOPS!



> My Luka is a product of an oops breeding, which on paper was a very nice breeding, but the sire was only 14 months old and didn't have an OFA number yet. He had climbed a tree to get to the female. That litter contained some superb animals, multi-titled and working dogs, who went on to produce many excellent multi-titled and working dogs themselves. Sometimes it's a happy accident.


Yup! Bunny's grandmother is one of those "L" pups. Lots of highly accomplished dogs and excellent companions came from that accident.

p.s. Living with The Bunny, I watch her like a hawk because she's a little hussy and I can just picture HER climbing a fence to get to a male!!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Really not being judgemental ...Rorie hasn't met a male she'd climb a fence for


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

DunRingill said:


> Yup! Bunny's grandmother is one of those "L" pups. Lots of highly accomplished dogs and excellent companions came from that accident.


Yes, and my Vinca is a Lark granddaughter as well. I have to say, I'm so happy with my dogs, I'm glad that accident happened.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't read where the female is young. Where is that posted?

I know of a person who had two oops litters from the same sire. She was out of town and both her females were in heat(one just coming into). Her son let their young male out and he accessed both females. So she had two oopsies on the ground at once, and the male was only 14 months old. She isn't even a breeder, just had all intact dogs and a son that was sick of hearing the male whine so let him out. Then he never told anyone he did this, it was too late to have the mismatch shot when she finally found out.
She learned her lesson. 
Odd, isn' it, how good breeders have to travel far and wide to breed, hoping it takes, and an oops occurs so easily...


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't read where the female is young. Where is that posted?


I am not sure how old the female is, but I'm assuming she's under 2 years of age. She was returned to the breeder because the buyer said she was "vicous" and "bad tempered" ... now, I don't know what to think of that, it could just be an ignorant owner with a rambunctious, untrained young bitch. I am sure that if she's truly "vicous" and "bad tempered", it'll be apparent when my friend visits the breeder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is on the website posted. Litter born May 22, 2010. The bitch is just a year old. That is young. 

Pet people can have containment issues. Breeders should be held to a higher standard. They have intact dogs, and they will continue to have intact dogs and they need to know how to contain them. 

Just because the offspring of a supposed oops is not born with eight feet and horns does not mean that the fact that there was an oops is still a really negative thing for someone calling themselves a breeder. 

You are out of town and your grandson let the boy out. The excuses are sometimes lame, sometimes creative -- climbed a tree, but accidents don't just happen. A breeder needs to be able to contain their dogs or they should not be a breeder. Pet owners can claim Martians came down and performed an AI. But if you are a breeder and you are not smarter than an intact dog or bitch, than you need to be doing something else.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Well, Selzer, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think that an "oops" litter automatically makes you a bad breeder.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that oops litters are like a free pass. 

If you have an awesome young bitch but she is in heat now and will not be two for another two months, so no OFA's, oops!

People will crucify you and call you BYB if you DELIBERATELY bred your year-old female, but if you just weren't careful enough about containment, well, than you are just ok, because we are all human. 

No, I hold to it. If you want to breed GSDs, if you want to be a breeder, then you cannot afford an oops. If you want to breed a dog with just pre-lims or without titles, own it. It is better than not being able to contain your bitch and dog -- that in my opinion is number one thing a breeder has to be able to do. How else can you even be sure it was a particular shepherd and not some mangy rangy border collie mix? 

You found them together? How do you KNOW the neighbors BC mix hasn't been visiting for a week? They are excellent climbers by the way. You have to be able to contain them. That is worse than making a calculated breeding decision, which will get you more flack.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There is more. Breeders need to be aware of and fighting bad legislation. 

Mandatory spay/neuter laws are in place because people pretend that they cannot contain intact dogs without the dogs making puppies. Breeders should not be contributing to this mindset. It is unacceptable. 

John Q Public may think two dogs could do it quick while playing at the dog park, breeders know you would have to be blind and deaf or just not there for that to happen. 

Sorry the almighty oops is one of my biggest pet peeves. 

I might buy from someone on pre-lims, I might use a dog without titles, but I would NEVER buy from someone claiming an oops.

Recklessness, carelessness, irresponsibility, are not usually symptoms that affect only one outcome. In other words, if you are careless, reckless, irresponsible about containment, what else are you being reckless/careless/irresponsible about?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I see what you're saying, and it's a valid argument.

I say that if a breeder is producing outstanding dogs, showing, training, titling, the whole nine yards, doing everything an ethical breeder should do, and is also active in education and rescue... one ooops litter doesn't negate all that. It's not always black and white, IMO. But I see where you're coming from.

It's true that a less-than-ethical breeder could use "oops" as an excuse to sell puppies. I see it all the time on Craigslist, etc. (don't get me started on that.)


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that it is possible for a breeder to get a tie they were not expecting, but they would probably have had the foresight to house dogs and bitches near each other where it would not be the end of the world if they did connect. They would not house a bitch with one gate between she and her sire, and they would not house a puppy bitch with one gate between she and a dog, to prevent possible accidents. 

If indeed the bitch pup was returned due to unsuitable temperament -- that would be a huge reason to pass on the litter. A bitch with questionable temperament imprinting a litter is like double jeapardy. 

I had a dog that was sire to five of my bitches and grand sire to two of them. I housed him next to the one bitch I had that was not related.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

An oops litter with superior stock is better than a planned litter with mediocre stock as i see it.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> An oops litter with superior stock is better than a planned litter with mediocre stock as i see it.


Yes. What is the pedigree of the "oops" litter?


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> An oops litter with superior stock is better than a planned litter with mediocre stock as i see it.


EXCELLENT point!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I imported a female that was 21 months old, was Zvv1, was 0/0 hips and elbows....was this female ethical to breed???? If I bred her here in America would it be considered an oops litter or BYB? If her sister was here in the states and had prelimms that were "good" would she be ethical to breed??
If the one sister is ethical to breed and the other sister isn't, what is the part that the one sister would give to the litter that would make it unethical to some?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I think a buyer and a breeder has to ask themselves that question At the risk of someone coming on a telling me that I am the pot calling the kettle black (but have never personally bred a dog) I wouldn't want to breed a dog before 2 and that is not just the hips-just think its allowing the female to mature and would ideally want to wait till 3-If its an oops litter its an accident-but I would be really upset with myself if I owned a 1 year old female that had been bred even if it had a good pedigree


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Cliff for me the answer depends on the dogs, as always, lol! If they were dogs known to mature more slowly, as a buyer I'd be reluctant to purchase from that breeding regardless of whether it was oops or fully intentional. However the dog being titled seems to indicate the dog IS mature enough to train at that level (unless the dog is only titled just for a selling point for breeding, but I don't know...), and if there was a pretty clear picture based on other siblings, ancestors, and progeny then it wouldn't really matter to me oops or intentional. It always boils down to whether I want the DOG or not. No one is perfect so if the breeder is otherwise someone I feel is trustworthy and knowledgeable then a good dog is a good dog!

So far both of my dogs that I have been training for work/sport/performance venues have each had parents that have achieved additional title, breed survey, etc after I purchased my dogs. In both cases I trusted the breeders and my own perception of how the dogs would turn out, not just relying on the title and the breed survey. And in both cases I have not been surprised (bad) or disappointed. I feel that anytime I purchase a puppy rather than a "green" dog I am taking a gamble, and I am further willing to gamble a bit on breedings that involve younger breeding dogs with few progeny (though so far none have been younger 3), but those are gambles I'm willing to take.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Fair analysis Lies, (BTW, the female got a 100 in tracking in her Zvv1, she probably wasn't rushed...lol), I think everything has to be in perspective....I don't think anyone would breed a 1 year old dog, but if an oops litter happens I think we have to look at the "dogs," to see if it would be a good breeding; if it wasn't an oops. To me the oops becomes secondary to WHAT do we have here once it is done. Some people have such good stock in there kennel that an oops will still provide nice dogs. Others have stock that they could plan until eternity and the dogs will still be lacking.
I am not promoting an Oops litter, what I am saying is we need to take the drama out of the oops and evaluate what is in place for proper use and placement. I have never had an oops litter, but I can say that if any of my dogs of breeding age did breed, the litter would easily stand on its feet in terms of quality.
Also, imposing artifical standards,(like dog has to be 24 months for hips), to define something as BYB or Oops, when the OVC, SV, and FCI, have less stringent age requirements, seems to cast dispersions on the majority of German Shepherds in the world.
BTW, this post is not directed at any other posts, but merely reflects looking at things pragmatically. Sometimes, our responses are steeped in emotion and personal feelings that may not always reflect the only way to acheive soundness....for the newer people I like to let them have facts without the personal baggage inserted.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree. Some "oops" dogs have gone on to some pretty nice accomplishments!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just because they do not have purple spots and horns doesn't make it ok. 

Yes, some people have awesome dogs and house them in such a way that if there was an accident it would be between dog and bitch who would make nice pups if bred intentionally. 

I have a bitch who will be two end of July. She is due to come into heat around the same time. Of course I do not have her OFAs yet. If I breed her this time, and plan to get her OFA's after the litter is weaned, I would be crucified here. Everyone would say PASS on that that breeder, etc. WHY? Because health screenings should be done BEFORE we breed the bitch.

So how about I just say, whoops, I was out with Joy and we met up with my friend and she had her dog with her, and ya know they were so good together that we left them in one of her kennels while we went to lunch. And when we got back, oopsie, they were tied. Can you believe our horror, after all, Joy Joy is not quite two, and doesn't have her OFAs yet. But they will make great puppies because he has an awesome pedigree. 

It is all baloney. If you are reckless, careless, ignorant, irresponsible about allowing a 1 year old bitch, brought back because of her temperament, get tied with your dog, well, what else are you careless, reckless, ignorant or irresponsible about? 

The pups have a TRIPLE whammy going for them. Her genetics may be not so good if her temperament is poor, she will imprint the puppies with a poor temperament. Now she is with people she is less familiar with, and in this environment, this immature bitch will be saddled with a litter of puppies she may not be mature enough to raise properly. 

Bad owners can buy good dogs and breed them indiscriminately, make bad decisions, and produce much worse than they started out with. Bad owners can take good dogs and ruin them. 

I would rather put my money on a pup that someone put thought and planning into than someone who will not even own up to breeding. 

Breeders should be too embarrassed to claim an oops litter. Some of them seem to wear them like a badge of honor. They certainly use them to sell their puppies. 

The pup is younger than the two pups I had out at class tonight -- much too young. And people will buy them because they are already here, and because it was an accident and we are all human. 

Nobody learns. People who others rave about their knowledge, etc, say well it depends on the quality of the dogs. Haack tuey. You can have the best dogs there are and if you are not ethical, should people buy from you? If you are regularly breeding your bitches at eight or ten months old, should people buy a pup from you just because you have produced a grand victor or a world sieger or a schutzhund champion? If you have fifty dogs up to their hocks in poop should people buy from you because you have had some dogs with accomplishments?

If you have a mature female mated by a decent mature male, but not planned, one of those he let the dog out deals, then you can argue back and forth about whether or not you should endorse the breeder/breeding, but when you are talking about a puppy being bred, I just don't know how you can condone that. Because if you do, then it is an ever-ready excuse for people who just do not want to wait and do it right.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't think ANYBODY endorsed breeding a one year old female...so why all the drama and repetition???? We all stipulated that was wrong whether it was planned or oops. 
I would not crucify you because you bred a female at 23 months that had x-ray proof that the hips were sound....I have done that before. Would some of the people on this forum frown???? I guess!!!, but so what???How will their opinion affect the quality of the litter????How about the QUALITY of their opinion???
Some of the same hypocrites that breed to Champions, that are made at 14 months old, and bred at 16 months because they are Champions, and people who bred to European dogs that are out of litters that were bred before two years because the dogs were titled and Ko'er by 21 months, are the ones that would be the most opinionated. 
I look at the facts of the breeding, I could give a Haack Tuey about opinions of the people who preach their standards contrary to the breed's well being. 
At the end of the day, if what you are doing is good it will reflect in your dogs, people's personal hangups?????don't have time for!!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> when you are talking about a puppy being bred, I just don't know how you can condone that. Because if you do, then it is an ever-ready excuse for people who just do not want to wait and do it right.


No one is condoning it, and the only people who use it as an "excuse" are people that never were ethical breeders in the first place. Selzer, you've made your point clearly and it's well taken.

As to the particular breeder in question, AFAIC, the jury's still out, as I don't know her or the particulars of the oops breeding. Personally, if it happened to me, I'd have spayed the bitch as soon as I realized she was pregnant. But sometimes it's safer for the bitch just to have the litter; if it's a good litter on paper, there will probably be homes for the puppies. What's done is done, and these pups do need good homes. My friend who is looking at the litter wants a companion dog which will be spayed/neutered and she doesn't give a frog's backside about whether the dog is registered. So it may be a good match for her, if the sire and dam are of good health and temperament. As for the female being described as "ill tempered" by the former owner, I have to withold judgement on that as well, as it could be a situation of a rowdy, high-drive young dog with no socialization or training and an ignorant owner. I've seen it many times--the owner describes the dog this way and I discover that the dog is just fine when given strong, fair leadership.

In any case, I'm about to ask admin to lock the thread, as there's a lot of breeder-bashing going on and I think that's against forum rules.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have removed the name of the kennel and the link to protect the "breeder". The discussion itself can continue.

ADMIN Lisa


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

not a breeder here, but my 2 cents.

"Stuff" happens. There are "oops" litters and then there are "oops" litters. Because a well respected breeder has an "oops" litter doesn't concern me one bit. 

I'm not going to pass up what could be a fantastic puppy/dog because he was an 'oopsie' Heck don't humans have OOPS babies all the time?? Guess they should be whacked with a broom to


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

JakodaCD OA said:


> "Stuff" happens. There are "oops" litters and then there are "oops" litters. Because a well respected breeder has an "oops" litter doesn't concern me one bit.
> 
> I'm not going to pass up what could be a fantastic puppy/dog because he was an 'oopsie'


I agree. Unfortunately, MOST of the "oops" litters we see on the board are either someone's pet that was going to be speutered when it got older and it was never intended to be bred, (not the best breeding prospect, but a true accident), or one of those "accidentally on purpose" situations where it's pretty clear that the person is happy about what happened and only pretending otherwise. They were maybe not trying all that hard to prevent it, but feel like they are somehow absolved of being a BYB because it was an "accident" (I wasn't going to breed my dog/s, but yay, we're having puppies! ). 

I think that's why people have such strong feelings about oops litters in general, not due to stuff happening with respected breeders.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Freestep said:


> No one is condoning it, and the only people who use it as an "excuse" are people that never were ethical breeders in the first place. Selzer, you've made your point clearly and it's well taken.
> 
> As to the particular breeder in question, AFAIC, the jury's still out, as I don't know her or the particulars of the oops breeding. Personally, if it happened to me, I'd have spayed the bitch as soon as I realized she was pregnant. But sometimes it's safer for the bitch just to have the litter;* if it's a good litter on paper, there will probably be homes for the puppies. What's done is done, and these pups do need good homes. My friend who is looking at the litter wants a companion dog which will be spayed/neutered and she doesn't give a frog's backside about whether the dog is registered.* *So it may be a good match for her, if the sire and dam are of good health and temperament*. *As for the female being described as "ill tempered" by the former owner, I have to withold judgement on that as well, as it could be a situation of a rowdy, high-drive young dog with no socialization or training and an ignorant owner*. I've seen it many times--the owner describes the dog this way and I discover that the dog is just fine when given strong, fair leadership.
> 
> In any case, I'm about to ask admin to lock the thread, as there's a lot of breeder-bashing going on and I think that's against forum rules.


Why so many decent breeders are discounted on this site are because they do not title their dogs in a venue such as schutzhund which pushes them and PROVES their temperament. While a CGC and a RN or even a CD only tells you so much because it is not pushing the dog to its limits to prove the temperament. Whether or not I agree with that thinking, this pup does not sound like a dog who can even pass a CGC or RN at present. 

Pet homes NEED good temperament, not just people who want to go to shows, or do schutzhund. I have no worries about people who have a history of working with their dogs and taking them through titles -- those people will have little to no problem with their puppy. *It is the pet-people, those that do not care about registration, or that the dog was shown/titled that I worry about.* These are the people, that if they get a puppy that NEEDS to be carefully socialized, trained, NEEDS good leadership and good discipline, else big problems, these are the people that will have the most trouble coping. 

Not everyone needs a dog that will continue to attack/protect even if the decoy is waving a bat in their direction. But they need a dog who is not going to freak out and bite when they are scared, they need a dog who is not going to be terrified from ordinary situations and noises. 

I think your buddy would be wise to pass on a litter from a very young female who was returned due to temperament and immediately bred. Maybe the former owners were yayhoos who did not bother to train or socialize the dog. But an untrained, unsocialized bitch with puppies will be imprinting her behavior on her puppies every time there is any situation that she is unfamiliar with. A nervous bitch will have nervous puppies. 

Yes, the puppies are here and someone will need to give them a home. I believe this is much more likely to be tragic than a happy ending. 

Somebody has to give those puppies a home, or they stay with the breeder and most likely overwhelm her. May as well be your buddy as much as anyone else. $500 is highway robbery for a pup whose dam is neither titled in anything nor screened for genetic problems in my opinion, and most importantly, whose temperament is suspect.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> But an untrained, unsocialized bitch with puppies will be imprinting her behavior on her puppies every time there is any situation that she is unfamiliar with. A nervous bitch will have nervous puppies.


I advised my friend as such, and told her that if she goes out there and finds that the bitch is truly bad-tempered, nervous, aggressive, etc. she needs to take a pass. She is in agreement with that.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I am confused...so what you are saying is if a regular person has an oops litter that is not ok but if a respected breeder does well accidents happen?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am certainly not saying that. 

A well-respected breeder might house dogs near each other who they would not mind having a litter out of even if it is not planned for this year -- not a too young bitch, not a dog with bad temperament, not dogs that are closely related. If the breeder told me it was an oops. I am thinking, wow, they cannot manage their dogs -- not a good sign. But if all the stars were aligned, and there was no reason NOT to breed them, it would probably not be a total no-way. I would be just very curious why they would be saying it was an oops in the first place. 

Some people are really sticklers with all the BYB-jargon going around. Oh you have two litters on the ground at the same time you must be a BYB -- etc. I suppose people might not want to own that they decided to breed two at the same time. Breeders know that if you breed 1 or 2, you may have no litter, if you breed four you will have four litters. So, maybe they bred two, and they claim they bred the one, but the other they were not intending to breed at this time, but...

To me, that is still dishonest. And perhaps it is dishonest to NOT disclose that you really were not planning on breeding those two, but you must not have latched the gate properly and... But no one is asking if it was an oops. I do not understand why so many people claim the oops defense. Is it because, as some of this thread seems to suggest, that an oops is somewhat ok, where breeding two or more at the same time, ick!

I think breeders should be held to a higher standard in this area -- they NEED to know how to manage intact dogs/bitches. Just because the cought Charlie having his way with Chloe, how are they 100% certain that young Max did not have his way with her the previous day? 

If a pet owner fails to contain there intact animals, it is bad because it plays into the madatory spay/neuter legislation. I think a LOT of those breedings are because people do just want to have one litter, or do not care if they have puppies until they are pregnant. People will be drawn and quartered here if they say they bred their dog to their bitch because they wanted to have just one litter of puppies. But if they say oops, we are going to grand parents. People will, for the most part, give them the help they need, and be more understanding than they should be really. 

I think if you choose to keep intact animals for breeding or for their health, you have a responsibility to be diligent about containment.


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