# 4.5 month old



## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Okay GSD fanatics ..
Looking for suggestions

History:
Removed from mother and siblings between 4-5 weeks old . Transfered from Indiana to Michigan to a dealer ( unknown until after purchase).
Was very underweight and unhealthy .
Was treated for coccidia and giardia , now clear .

Problem:
She is very aggresive . I do not mean normal puppy play biting or prey drive building.
I mean will full fledged attack another dog.
Lunges at leash , hackles raised , stiff as a board, growling , barking , snapping when she sees a dog a block away .
She will turn and direct her frustration to whoever is holding her leash if corrected.
She is submissive to my adult male , but still challenges my adult female. My female will pin her , pup acts submissive but as soon as adult moves away the puppy will resume her attack..
I originally thought it was fear based but the older she gets the worse she is getting.
She is small only 30 pounds at 4.5 months. 
She is overly alert to every moving object .

She is my dad's but lives with me for now .
If she continues to escalate she is going to be a dangerous dog.
At the vet today she actually ( after much vocal barking, growling and hackles raised ) made playful gestures with a frenchie first time ever she has done this








. 2 hours later my sister in law brought her little adult beagle mix over and the pup tried to attack him. He was not confrontational at all , he actually just tried to avoid her completely. It was unprovoked . And she is familiar with him.

Best way I can describe her is she is possessive of everything . Toys , doorways , gates , food she wants control of everything.
This started at 8 weeks and is getting worse.
Regardless of my attempts to redirect .
She seems overly confident in familiar situations , but leary of new ones.

You can not break her focus when she is on a target . She is determined to fight.
I am waiting on a call from a behavioral trainer but would love advice from anyone qualified.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Video would help. Otherwise most detail is lacking for advice.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Video would help. Otherwise most detail is lacking for advice.


I think my detailed description explains pretty well. 
However I will see if someone will help set up a situation , then record it .


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

luluburkmier said:


> She is my dad's but lives with me for now .





luluburkmier said:


> I am waiting on a call from a behavioral trainer but would love advice from anyone qualified.


From everything you've written, it sounds like the dog has no leadership and direction. JMO.

When you call behaviuorist or trainer make sure they are competent balanced trainers that have dealt with your issues and have experience with working dogs. The vast majority of positive only trainers are only good at draining your bank account with minimal results if any.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Since your puppy is now 4.5 months old, I'm curious how you've been addressing her reactivity until now? What have you tried to get her to s to stop?


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

How does she spend her days? What sort of routine, structure, and training is she getting?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

luluburkmier said:


> I think my detailed description explains pretty well.
> However I will see if someone will help set up a situation , then record it .


Great, detailed description. Doesn't replace eyes on the dog whatsoever imo.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

luluburkmier said:


> I am waiting on a call from a behavioral trainer but would love advice from anyone qualified.


Nobody is trying to be a smart alec. It's just really hard to diagnose on the internet and give solid advice for a dog with truly serious issues. We'd just be throwing out guesses, likely wrong ones.Hopefully you can get some hands on help quickly. In the meantime try to avoid situations where she continues to practice the behavior.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

luluburkmier said:


> She is submissive to my adult male , but still challenges my adult female. My female will pin her , pup acts submissive but as soon as adult moves away the puppy will resume her attack..


it’s not the advice that you came here for, but from the sounds of this pups temperment and based the quoted portion of your post - i’m just going to echo my thoughts from this thread… please, do not keep these two females together.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

These dogs are not kept together unsupervised. 
The issue has been addressed since the behavior started. The females get along fine except at entryways.
The issues is the pups alone . 
As far as a schedule goes I am home all day , everyday and our routine goes as follow. 
6 am I wake up let my 2 adult dogs out of their crates ( same room) take them to the back yard. Then I come in and let the pup out of her crate and onto her tie out ( which reaches the fence to the back yard) . She has her own area where she can interact with the other dogs but not contact them other than noses. 
Pup comes to door when ready and she gets her breakfast.
7am big dogs come into the crate room seperated from puppy by gate for their breakfast. 
After all food is ate dishes are removed and big dogs come in to main house . 
Pup ignores male on entry , begins lunging at female. I have her on a leash and pinch collar and correct her until she stops . Once she does I remove leash and they play. 
8am big dogs are put back outside , pup tries to lunge at female at door , puppy goes on tie out . Once everyone does their business I put pup in the backyard and they play. When I go to gate to bring them she begins lunging at female.
This continues throughout the day. 
We take a group walk around noon and 2 pm no issues. Except when leashing up to go out the door or gate. This is when the pup acts up. Coming and leaving through doorways or gates. 
I've been working on a sit stay with her but it's too much for her at this point and it's just me here to manage them. I've tried tying her away from door but she gets more frustrated and aggressive being restrained. I've tried crating her on entry of the female but again she goes bat crazy in her crate and she has target aggression toward the female when removed from crate .
She does not react to dogs on walks ,but reacts to dogs walking past our home . Group car rides , she's fine. Group playtime , she's fine . 
She seems to be controlling entry and exit . 
She tries to keep the female away from me also. 
I know this is resource guarding , I just don't know how she developed it as she has been in this routine since she was tiny. She has never been permitted to be like this and it's always been corrected. Her drive outweighs the corrections. 
Her past history and likely her genetics are at play here. 
She is definitely the dominant female here at this point, and she seems to want to make sure it stays that way. 
But nobody is challenging her ! 
When outside in the yard playing with the female it's a different story. They play great, they dig holes together , share the water bucket, play tug of war, chase one another they act like best buddies. 
I do not want to condone her behavior at the door . I literally have to prop my door open and hold the female by her collar and let her in while holding the pup back by her collar so she don't go after her. 
The female seems just as confused by the behavior of the pup as I am. She just wants to keep her distance from her at the door. And again the pup does not have any reaction to my adult male at all. He can come and go as he pleases. He is the strong silent type. Very laid back , non reactive , non territorial, will give up his toys to her . 
The adult female is restless, high prey drive , moves quickly, semi insecure , the type that anyone can approach but will nip you in the butt when you walk away. Not very stable minded but she is adjusting.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

Can you take the pup in and out on her own, without other dogs around her? Avoid that situation all together?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Pawsed said ^^^^^.Reading your last post it looks like the pup is practicing the behavior over and over.Even though you are trying your best to correct it,it's not resulting in a change.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

I am trying to post a video , no matter how much I edit and shorten it , says file too large.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Pawsed said:


> Can you take the pup in and out on her own, without other dogs around her? Avoid that situation all together?


I can and have done that , but she then attacks the gate separating them. And once they are outside or even inside the door after her initial display of aggression she is perfectly fine.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)




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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

As you can see , she has hackles raised , stiff posture , stressed expression on face . She is not playing. 
But after they get in the house past the doorway everything stops and is peaceful .


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Just a quick comment based on the information provided:

If I let my dogs out after being crated all night, put them on a tie out and brought them back in after a bit for breakfast (no exercise, no brain work, no sniff session, no blowing off steam etc) they'd attack ME never mind another dog. My dogs aren't crated and still get a 45 minute hike/sniff/poop run before breakfast, rain or shine.

The real issue you're seeing is likely good old predictable same sex aggression and the drive to it is genetic and out weighs the correction you're giving.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

luluburkmier said:


> These dogs are not kept together unsupervised.
> The issue has been addressed since the behavior started. The females get along fine except at entryways.
> The issues is the pups alone .


You are being foolish. Take a look at all the advice you were given. It was they need to be separated at all times. Not that they should be together supervised. You need to get away from these interactions all together. Even if your choice is to keep them together, this type of behavior shouldn’t be tolerated. You should have been shutting that down as soon as signs appeared.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

WNGD said:


> Just a quick comment based on the information provided:
> 
> If I let my dogs out after being crated all night, put them on a tie out and brought them back in after a bit for breakfast (no exercise, no brain work, no sniff session, no blowing off steam etc) they'd attack ME never mind another dog. My dogs aren't crated and still get a 45 minute hike/sniff/poop run before breakfast, rain or shine.
> 
> The real issue you're seeing is likely good old predictable same sex aggression and the drive to it is genetic and out weighs the correction you're giving.


I really appreciate your comment . And I also would lean toward same sex aggression. However would that be evident in a 8 week old puppy ? 
Our daily routine has not changed . 6 am they are let out of their crates to relieve themselves, while I get the kid ready for school. They are then fed breakfast, when finished eating they go out into 3 fenced lots to play while my kid gets on the bus and I get myself dressed and get a couple household chores done . 
Then I take them for a group walk . 
Through out the day I pay them 1 on 1 attention with training reps and flirt pole while I get things done.
It may not be your schedule but it's ours and they are accustomed to it. They get more attention than most dogs as I work from home. The only time they are crated is bedtime. And that is also their routine. 
They are not shutzhund working dogs , or police k9s.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Bearshandler said:


> You are being foolish. Take a look at all the advice you were given. It was they need to be separated at all times. Not that they should be together supervised. You need to get away from these interactions all together. Even if your choice is to keep them together, this type of behavior shouldn’t be tolerated. You should have been shutting that down as soon as signs appeared.


I am home 24/7 with my dogs. I am trying to understand the dynamics of what is causing this behavior so I can stop it. Hence why I come here to ask questions. I am in a home setting , not a kennel or breeding operation. A subdivision. 
They have to be together to some extent as I live in a house with 2 doors . A front and a back door and one large back yard ! I do not give up and even though this pup belongs to my father she is stuck with me until he is well enough to take her. And when that time comes she will have to share her living space with his other GSD in a house with 2 doors and a large back yard. 
At 4.5 months she is young and highly trainable . The trick is finding out what makes her behave this way.
As I stated they play and walk beautifully together. The big issue is the entry ways. Can you lend advice on a strategic way to teach her to allow the other dog in and out peacefully ? They don't hate each other, they choose to sleep together and clean each other.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

luluburkmier said:


> I really appreciate your comment . And I also would lean toward same sex aggression. However would that be evident in a 8 week old puppy ?
> Our daily routine has not changed . 6 am they are let out of their crates to relieve themselves, while I get the kid ready for school. They are then fed breakfast, when finished eating they go out into 3 fenced lots to play while my kid gets on the bus and I get myself dressed and get a couple household chores done .
> Then I take them for a group walk .
> Through out the day I pay them 1 on 1 attention with training reps and flirt pole while I get things done.
> ...


No, would not be evident at 8 weeks but VERY normal to start manifesting as the pup starts pushing boundaries with a another female. Eventually you will have a major fight, 6 months 8 months whatever. 

My comment was just a comment that my dogs need a decent run every morning to get the huge amounts of energy they have out, not to suggest what you have to do. But a "group walk" also does very little for a GSD. Glad it's worked for you so far but you may have a different beast on your hands now, one I'm more familiar with.....energy/drive/physical and mental needs to be actively met.

Again I'll say that's it's hard to give advice without seeing the dogs but you did ask for it. Kudos to you to be raising 3 GSD while working form home and still being engaged with them throughout the day, I do the same with my two. But for me, the very first aggressive door controlling or food possessing or toy hoarding or couch protecting or resource guarding (including me) gets shut down in a swift, serious, fair way. Immediately. I step in and end it, make what you will of that and not sure if you would do that. A prong can help but I don't think it's needed. 

I hate the idea of crate and rotate or constant separation because we all hang onto the idea of one big happy family (and some have made it happen successfully) but once the fight/challenging starts/continues, it seldom deescalates on its own. 4.5 months is early for overt challenging and the early exit from the litter (4-5 weeks) is a contributing factor not to be over looked. I'm sorry. 

Once again, based anecdotally on dozens of similar precursors, I think you're due for a serious dog fight(s) in the coming weeks/months. My last female was the nicest dog you'd ever meet .... but would drop a female pup that challenged her like that.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Until you get hands on help take her in and out by herself. Remove her from the room out of sight of the other dogs when they go out first. When it's time to come in from the yard bring her in first and again leave her out of sight of the doorway.At walk time she goes on her tie out until you leash the other two. Then out the front door and around back to leash the pup and walk together. It's a few extra steps but the problem is solved until the trainer arrives.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

luluburkmier said:


> I am trying to post a video , no matter how much I edit and shorten it , says file too large.


Videos need to be uploaded to a hosting site like YouTube or Instagram, then links posted here. Be sure to set permissions to public on the uploaded video before posting the link though!


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## Sonny1984 (Oct 25, 2021)

luluburkmier said:


> I am home 24/7 with my dogs. I am trying to understand the dynamics of what is causing this behavior so I can stop it. Hence why I come here to ask questions. I am in a home setting , not a kennel or breeding operation. A subdivision.
> They have to be together to some extent as I live in a house with 2 doors . A front and a back door and one large back yard ! I do not give up and even though this pup belongs to my father she is stuck with me until he is well enough to take her. And when that time comes she will have to share her living space with his other GSD in a house with 2 doors and a large back yard.
> At 4.5 months she is young and highly trainable . The trick is finding out what makes her behave this way.
> As I stated they play and walk beautifully together. The big issue is the entry ways. Can you lend advice on a strategic way to teach her to allow the other dog in and out peacefully ? They don't hate each other, they choose to sleep together and clean each other.
> ...


I got a nice indoor plastic crate off OfferUp. For my last dog I had a 8 ft x 4 ft outdoor kennel that I got from Costco - Amazon has a lot as well. To me it sounds way easier to keep the pup mostly seperate for now than doing what you’re doing. I think it would also set up the pup to have a better chance of growing up into a nice dog. The genetics and environment mix may be working against you, but you can always step up your game on the management side of things - that you do have control over.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

luluburkmier said:


> I really appreciate your comment . And I also would lean toward same sex aggression. *However would that be evident in a 8 week old puppy ?*


Not entirely, but certain temperaments can lean towards it, allowing for an educated guess towards the potential. Or you find out when you bring an adult female into the home that then “viciously attacks” the puppy for barking? existing?….. leads me to believe that there was more going on between the two, that perhaps you may have missed? Ppl on this board can only respond to the information that is provided, based on your assessment, descriptions, etc… when you provide that information in bits and pieces, things get missed, and wrong or incomplete advise is given.

You were advised not to keep these two females together…. you decided that keeping them separate was feasible, especially since the pup was due to go to your father….. not meaning to be insensitive, but without a timeline of when or if that will still happen - it is irresponsible, imo, to keep both dogs. posting a photo, which captures a single moment, of two non compatible dogs…. and garnering a few premature kudos does not change the dangerous situation that you have brewing. and i’m _only_ addressing the same sex aggression component - the training issue is a problem on its own.

i think you need to choose when and where you put your time and energy. you’re working with a small, manageable pup now….. it only gets harder from here forward.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

luluburkmier said:


> m home 24/7 with my dogs. I am trying to understand the dynamics of what is causing this behavior so I can stop it. Hence why I come here to ask questions. I am in a home setting , not a kennel or breeding operation. A subdivision.
> They have to be together to some extent as I live in a house with 2 doors . A front and a back door and one large back yard ! I do not give up and even though this pup belongs to my father she is stuck with me until he is well enough to take her. And when that time comes she will have to share her living space with his other GSD in a house with 2 doors and a large back yard.


Your assumption that you have to keep them together because of space concerns is false. I’ve crate and rotated in an apartment. I crate and rotate here when I have outside dogs. I can do it with 4 dogs here at my home. It doesn’t take a kennel or breeding program. Get a crate for each dog. It’s that simple. They all get their own individual time outside the crate. They get their own time in the yard. They get their own walks.


luluburkmier said:


> At 4.5 months she is young and highly trainable . The trick is finding out what makes her behave this way.
> As I stated they play and walk beautifully together. The big issue is the entry ways. Can you lend advice on a strategic way to teach her to allow the other dog in and out peacefully ? They don't hate each other, they choose to sleep together and clean each other.


Something tells me that this isn’t a one sided situation. I can’t say for certain without seeing, but I’d be pretty sure that their are signals being sent both ways. You shouldn’t be having situations where dogs have to submit to each other or anything close to that. You need to set and enforce boundaries to have them together. If my dog was guarding a passage, I would move them with a verbal correction and body pressure. I would use a physical correction and send her to the crate if necessary. That only solves your problem with the doorway though. It only works if you are attentive enough to address the issue before it escalates to a fight. I’ll reiterate. You are better off keeping them seperated and you have no excuse not to be able to.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

No matter what the "problem", strong obedience training is the answer!

There, I said it LOL! The on leash reactivity IS related to the harrassment at doorways. I personally don't agree with 95% of the - crate and rotate - mantra! It's a management technique only, and although it would remove the immediate issue, it does nothing to teach the pup how you need her to behave!

How is her obedience? Up your game! Handling three dogs at a doorway should be simple if they are trained. Practice door etiquette ahead of time in isolation with each dog. Then, with two present, then three...

There are no shortcuts or magic methods. Just good solid training of what you expect, IMHO!


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

Disclaimer that I don't know what I'm talking about, but sounds to me like anticipatory separation anxiety. The pup freaks out when the female is coming and going, but fine when together. Combine that with being separated too early from mother and siblings and you being home and around all-day, every day, I would guess this is a dog that doesn't understand that people/dogs come back. Unfortunately, if unaddressed, this behavior could certainly get worse. However, I think you need to work on behavior modification specifically around coming/going and specifically for the adult female (and probably for you, too). I think some of your management strategies (like the tie-out and keeping them separated but for touching noses) might actually be exacerbating the situation. I would schedule a consultation with an experienced trainer and/or behaviorist to see what their impression of that situation is. But like I said, I don't know what I'm talking about so no sweat if you think I'm wrong.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Even thought she was with you and in your home, she missed out on several critical weeks of other interactions with same age puppies in the litter. As a result, she doesn’t understand normal behaviors and has escalated to a dangerous situation. I thought I remember reading that you are experienced with the breed, so I’m surprised it got so intense so quickly. Dogs learn from one another. It’s possible your older female has corrected her strongly at times and she is repeating a behavior that was done to her without the benefit of early experience to temper it. I would immediately get a trainer in who knows what they are doing and separate the dogs.

A friend rescued a 4 week old puppy from under an abandoned house when she walked by and heard him crying. His mother and siblings were all dead. He was around other dogs outside their home, but grew up extremely dog aggressive until they lost him at age 12. 

I am concerned about your father taking her back when he’s weak from fighting a serious illness. Can he reasonably be able to take care of her and handle this if it comes up in a setting with another dog when he is alone with the dog? I know you’ve put in a huge amount of time and effort into raising her, but have you thought about rehoming her to a different kind of arrangement and finding him a different dog when he’s better?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Part of the problem is that the young dog was removed far to early from her littermates. Puppies learn valuable social skills between the time the begin to become mobile, and when they go to their new homes at 8 weeks. Your dog obviously never had the chance to learn this. She may not know how to inhibit her bite when playing, or she may not understand the other dog's body language. 

Maybe someone who's more familiar with young pups can give you advice on how to help her with these skills.


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## Zeppy (Aug 1, 2021)

I’ve read through the responses and am still wondering when this young dog gets her beans out - running off leash or on a long lead, playing 1:1 with her human exploring new places, going on hikes and building confidence. Just because you are home 24/7 doesn’t mean that your presence is enough - she needs more stimulation other than being let out in the backyard or going for a leashed walk. Just my 2 cents on what I could comprehend from the situation.


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Harness that behavior into something constructive using her intelligence. Once she gets to a point. Try something like... nose work or something using her instinct. Nose work can help dogs who have lower confidence. Because it relies directly on them and their natural abilities.

But before going there...
What kind of exercise is she getting?
What mental stimulation is she getting?
Retrain her brain on how to walk through a doorways-maybe for a while it means she is confined to one room, she sits, she waits, she heels, she goes through the doorway heeling, she stays in heel position then she is released. And what a good girl she is for doing such a wonderful job! Retrain her brain that yes, we walk through doorways, and other dogs walk through doorways, and it's okay and we can have a chill emotional response to it.
Her interactions with dogs need to stop until you get to a point where her obedience is there. Once she can do those commands and is invested in you. Then you can work around dogs. You can train her to walk around dogs without interest, by redirecting her focus to a job, that job is heeling, focusing on you.
Some dogs don't like strangers. Some dogs don't like other dogs. Some dogs just need to learn boundaries.
The "corrections" you speak of are obviously not helping or you wouldn't be here. So I'd try new strategies. Redirection is never something you want, nip this all in the bud while she is a small baby. 
Being a leader means you have to be her advocate, be consistent, be firm, be fair. 

Obedience. Exercise. Consistency. Mental stimulation. Redirection. Focus. A strong relationship with each other. You will get there. And learn a lot about yourself, her, and dogs in general in the process. Enjoy <3


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

I appreciate everyone's advice and opinions. 
I have consulted a behavioral trainer and he is coming to evaluate the pup and our situation Wednesday evening. 
I am certain there are a multitude of issues going on and I obviously was too distracted to notice when it first started. 
I do know this pup was " off" the day she showed up here. Besides being very sick and weak her development was/is also delayed or stunted . 
Yes my dogs get excersized, they go everywhere I go and are ran offleash frequently , 2 of the 3 jog next to our bicycles , we play off leash with the flirt pole often and swim at the lake a block away weather permitting. And we walk twice a day. They are not just left in a yard to entertain themselves. 
Since we all live different ways , perhaps I should have added that we live in a cottage subdivision . My home is 675 Sq feet , so those that agree with absolute isolation and or rotation of my dogs might get a better idea on how I might struggle with that. 
There is no possible way to completely seperate . 
My father purchased this pup . He does not want another , he wants this one. She is not mine to rehome. His health is not good at all . There is a very real chance she will never make it to his home. 
The photos of the girls are not a moment . They are great together. Except at the door ways. 
If the puppy is sleeping the adult will go paw and nose at her to wake her up to play. 
I have spent my lifetime with shepherds. I do not pretend to be an expert. That is why I come here to ask for suggestive help or ideas. I know that something is causing or enforcing this behavior. Removing the dogs from it completely is not going to solve the problem. It needs to be dealt with. 
Hopefully the trainer will be able to advise me on the best way to end this. 
Everyone has their way of doing things. I have family companions not working dogs aka spoiled house dogs. They are a part of my daily life every minute of every day and unless someone personally works their dog as a police k9 or ipo etc , I can assure you that I spend more time with them than many of you. 
This weekend we are going camping and because of the lack of door way I expect it will be a great weekend. 
I did not bring these dogs into my home to sit in crates. They have access to them if they want personal space , but they are not confined in them except for bed . Because I am unable to supervise, intervene or interact with them in my sleep.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

VTGirlT said:


> Harness that behavior into something constructive using her intelligence. Once she gets to a point. Try something like... nose work or something using her instinct. Nose work can help dogs who have lower confidence. Because it relies directly on them and their natural abilities.
> 
> But before going there...
> What kind of exercise is she getting?
> ...


Thank you , I will try to work this into our routine. 
My male is trained to ring the bells to go outside. I removed those because he would ring them and it was like a excite que for the others. My female would get over stimulated by it and start acting a fool. Now he comes to me quietly and noses my arm . I know there are alternatives to everything. Just overwhelming when working with 3 dogs with such different personalities. 
I'm determined and I am not one too disregard good advice. So thank you for yours.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Zeppy said:


> I’ve read through the responses and am still wondering when this young dog gets her beans out - running off leash or on a long lead, playing 1:1 with her human exploring new places, going on hikes and building confidence. Just because you are home 24/7 doesn’t mean that your presence is enough - she needs more stimulation other than being let out in the backyard or going for a leashed walk. Just my 2 cents on what I could comprehend from the situation.


She is excersized mentally and physically daily. 
She is ran off lead with the other dogs, flirt pole ,short obedience drills . I do not work her hard she is a puppy and a very small undersized pup at that. When she begins to lose interest we stop. Off leash she won't stray more than 20 feet from me and on a long lead she won't leave my side.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Sunsilver said:


> Part of the problem is that the young dog was removed far to early from her littermates. Puppies learn valuable social skills between the time the begin to become mobile, and when they go to their new homes at 8 weeks. Your dog obviously never had the chance to learn this. She may not know how to inhibit her bite when playing, or she may not understand the other dog's body language.
> 
> Maybe someone who's more familiar with young pups can give you advice on how to help her with these skills.


I agree that is where the big issue is. 
She is developmentally stunted.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Bknmaizey said:


> Disclaimer that I don't know what I'm talking about, but sounds to me like anticipatory separation anxiety. The pup freaks out when the female is coming and going, but fine when together. Combine that with being separated too early from mother and siblings and you being home and around all-day, every day, I would guess this is a dog that doesn't understand that people/dogs come back. Unfortunately, if unaddressed, this behavior could certainly get worse. However, I think you need to work on behavior modification specifically around coming/going and specifically for the adult female (and probably for you, too). I think some of your management strategies (like the tie-out and keeping them separated but for touching noses) might actually be exacerbating the situation. I would schedule a consultation with an experienced trainer and/or behaviorist to see what their impression of that situation is. But like I said, I don't know what I'm talking about so no sweat if you think I'm wrong.


I can leave her alone in the house while I go outside or to the store without her stressing and she does not care if the adult dogs are out and she is in. In fact I originally thought her barking , nipping at the door with the other dog was her deranged way of herding them to and from the gate. 
I'm still not positive that's not what is happening.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> No matter what the "problem", strong obedience training is the answer!
> 
> There, I said it LOL! The on leash reactivity IS related to the harrassment at doorways. I personally don't agree with 95% of the - crate and rotate - mantra! It's a management technique only, and although it would remove the immediate issue, it does nothing to teach the pup how you need her to behave!
> 
> ...


I am working with obedience on both her and the adult female. They are both equal in training at this point. Sit , down , heel, come . Neither are exceptional at it. 
On leash they are 90 percent better than off. 
Because of the pups health her vaccinations were delayed until she was strong enough to start the series. She completed her series last week , so I can finally begin working her in different areas.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Lots more good information as to their regular days and living conditions. OP, you can see why it's difficult to give absolute advice based on the original post. At this point, see what the trainer says (I hope they have large herding dog experience and used balanced training). Good luck.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That is indeed a small area indoors. You could put her in the bathroom out of sight of the doorway couldn't you? My suggestion is meant to be temporary until you get the trainer there.If you're set on keeping them all together why not put the two older dogs in a stay while you take the pup in and out by herself? My three dogs all get excited at the doorway going out and also at the kennel gate when coming out.They have a Wait command and I release them one at a time to avoid them all trying to crowd through the opening at once.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

luluburkmier said:


> They are kept completely separated , rotations and securely confined .





luluburkmier said:


> My home is 675 Sq feet , so those that agree with absolute isolation and or rotation of my dogs might get a better idea on how I might struggle with that.
> *There is no possible way to completely separate.*


how were you able to accomplish this before?


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> That is indeed a small area indoors. You could put her in the bathroom out of sight of the doorway couldn't you? My suggestion is meant to be temporary until you get the trainer there.If you're set on keeping them all together why not put the two older dogs in a stay while you take the pup in and out by herself? My three dogs all get excited at the doorway going out and also at the kennel gate when coming out.They have a Wait command and I release them one at a time to avoid them all trying to crowd through the opening at once.


I have a 32x32 inch shower in a 5x8 bathroom . ( toilet , sink , storage area .) 
When I say small I mean small . 
I enclosed my 8x24 porch to create a dog room  but it's one open area for crates and dog toys . This area is separated from the main house with a baby gate . I do keep the pup in the main part the majority of the time but the big kids want to spend time with me too. If I crate her during big dog time she gets very agitated and it fuels her temper toward the female. 
All together in the main area they are fine.
As long as nobody wants to go out. 
My male is a very obedient boy , thankfully 
With tolerance that goes for days ! 
I am teaching the wait command to the girls but it's hard for them to focus when pup is yapping her head off. Patience is a virtue. 
I know we will get through this and live happily ever after. Just figuring out what works. I'm basically training two pups at once as my female adult had little to no training prior to me either.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Fodder said:


> how were you able to accomplish this before?


I kept her crated in my bedroom . But she was only 5 pounds and fit in a cat carrier. 
That has changed . Lol


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's about the size of our bathroom.Myself and the three dogs manage to occupy the space as they supervise my teeth brushing.Best of luck to you and the trainer as you ponder solutions!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

My dogs get along very well but they still fight at doorways. It’s a trigger because they each want to get outside quickly and each wants to be first. They will stop themselves from getting what they want (going outside) to snap at each other about it. I solved it by letting the most assertive one go out first all the time, run a bit, then let the other one out. By then they are calmer and they don’t fight at all. I also give them something to carry out so their teeth are occupied. It’s hard to fight with toys in their mouths. When we go back inside, I take the toys away first as they squabble over toys.


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