# Rally vs. Traditional Obedience



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This got brought up on the other thread and I am interested in hearing people's opinions:

Someone said a rally group had been shamed out of an obedience club by the traditional people. Why? What is it that the other folks think is so shameful about rally? Less precision? More interaction with the dog? 

I saw it mentioned somewhere that some people think that pure positive trainers can't compete at advanced AKC obedience & are creating easier venues because they can't hack it (not saying I agree or disagree just what I read). Is this part of the rally thing, or more to do with venues like Companion Dog Sports Prog that allow treats in the ring and praise but otherwise seem very similar to AKC?

What would be the benefit of competing in traditional AKC? Proving your dog in a more difficult venue than rally? Is traditional "harder" than higher levels of rally?


----------



## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

I don't know about the incident you reference. So I have no comment other than I'm glad I was not there or rather they should be!

I believe that it is common knowledge in the dog world that usually no two trainers agree on anything other than the fact that third trainer is doing it wrong. It's hilarious to me how many conversations turn this way at events! I often remind my wife right before going to any dog competition to watch for this and we talk about it on the way home "laughing all the way"

I can say this. I have been invited a few times to this Rally stuff and my gut has often told my mind to go but haven't as of yet. I am however going to start in it this summer. I can't wait!!!

This gives me a new idea for a bumper sticker, My Rally Dog ate his/her/your obedience DOGS lunch!


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

It goes both ways. Its just people and people not getting along. Some are going to look down on rally for every different reason there can be. Over time you're going to come across some people who like to present their rally titles as equal to every other venue when they declare themselves trainers or as working their dogs for breeding purposes. They're going to knock the other venues and in some cases its going to be because they weren't able to do well, for every individual reason there may be. 

There's no formal venue you can't try and compete in with what you're thinking of, as far as positive only. In some things, the dog is going to decide what works. If what you want to use to motivate doesn't mean as much to them as something else, you aren't going to do as well. 

Another thing too, as far as clubs. Most of the time, they don't owe anyone anything. Its a group of people getting together to do something they have in common and there's only so much time. If they want to go in a certain direction, maybe it just doesn't include rally. One thing I know when it comes to dog sports or even showing. You have to be reasonably thick skinned. If your dog isn't humbling you, something else will and its tough if it isn't fun. Concentrate on having fun.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

From the AKC website:



> AKC Rally® is a companion sport to AKC Obedience. It too requires teamwork between dog and handler along with performance skills similar to obedience. Rally provides an excellent introduction to AKC events for new dogs and handlers, and can provide a challenging opportunity for competitors in other events to strengthen their skills. All dogs are eligible to compete in rally.


Its not meant to be obedience. When some want to compare it and present it as equal rather then just enjoying their dog like its actual purpose, there's going to be some conflict with some others.


----------



## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The club I go to a lot of folks compete in several venues and they are all supportive of each other.And the rally trials are usually on separate days than the regular obedience trials so I haven't experienced any snobbery yet
Traditional OB exercises are more formal and precise.So more effort in training a perfect heel position,straight sits,etc.
Rally is the only way that some breeds can ever get in a ring and compete with their owners.The jumps are low for the extra large dogs that can't or shouldn't be going over 36" jumps,dogs that don't do well in group exercises,or don't want to be touched by the judge.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> From the AKC website:
> 
> 
> Its not meant to be obedience. When some want to compare it and present it as equal rather then just enjoying their dog like its actual purpose, there's going to be some conflict with some others.


Am I understanding correctly that when people try and present their rally dogs or rally accomplishments as equal to an accomplishment in a harder venue (I.e. traditional obedience), ppl get mad? 


As far as titling to prove yourself / dog as a trainer or breeder rally would not be considered worthwhile?

I am not passing judgment on anyone or anything I am just asking questions to people who have more experience in all of these venues than I do....


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

I've competed and titled in both AKC Obedience and Rally, and unfortunately, there IS a big difference in attitude among the people. 

Traditional Obedience has to be very precise (as Dogma mentioned), so it's all what YOUR goal is for you and your dog! The main thing is to *enjoy *whatever sport you venture into!

I used positive reinforcement in both venues.

Moms


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

The trainer I use and love trains as if the dog is going on to get CGC, rally and/or agility. Along with all the basics mine know directions(right, left, about turn, u-turn, etc) and got to do a small agility course as part of their training class(at the end of the class).


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Am I understanding correctly that when people try and present their rally dogs or rally accomplishments as equal to an accomplishment in a harder venue (I.e. traditional obedience), ppl get mad?
> 
> 
> As far as titling to prove yourself / dog as a trainer or breeder rally would not be considered worthwhile?
> ...


Its like anything, its how people present themselves and how other people want to accept them, or not. From either side. Enjoy the dogs and make friends with whoever you do. 

Its not a matter of worthwhile. There's some amount of worth to all of it, but the skill's involved go up with different levels and how many different dogs a trainer has handled themselves and trained with others. Its pretty tough to tell someone you can train X when all you've ever done is B.


----------



## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

I guess it's human nature to form cliques. It's too bad the rally people felt pressured to leave the facility. I haven't been to a trial, but I've taken some rally classes, and they're a lot of fun. I like the idea of rally being a gateway to other venues. Our instructor competes in both obedience and rally, and she tries to teach us how to do things correctly/precisely in case we ever want to go on to compete in obedience. I think that anything that encourages more people to get out and do things with their dogs and get involved with training is good. I wonder if some obedience-folks worry that rally draws interest away from formal obedience, or makes them feel like they'll have to lower their standards or something. Who knows! Rally was more accessible to us. I wanted to take intermediate or advanced obedience classes, but rally and agility seemed to be all that are available (under an hour's drive) unless I wanted to hire a private trainer.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well, I am certain that rally is the right place for us right now. I was initially only looking for a hobby for my retiring service dog to keep her excited about life. No doubt she has enjoyed learning the exercises, and it gave us some new things to do when we were in a bit of a rut since I can't play with her like I used to (she has physical limitations now)

I kind of feel like my pup might have a knack for this sort of thing, he seems to enjoy it and it crossed my mind maybe I should take him to traditional AKC OB, his sire was super titled, OTCH, UDX, CDX, among a lot of others tracking titles ect. So I guess the possibility is there that my boy has the genetic stuff to do well at this?

He isn't even a year old yet so I really like being able to talk to him and tell him how well he is doing (although to be fair he seems to be able to maintain his performance for a pretty good stretch with no feedback from me...hard to explain he is just mellow and willing to keep on like he knows he is right and he is just cool with it)

Anyway, I am just very curious about the whole thing...

As I said before, I am a big sissy so I have to work on myself before I could compete in a less supportive atmosphere than rally....


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Personally, I like agility best. People are great and you have so many options for organizations. Look into ASCA as well. They have rally, obedience and agility. DOCNA for agility.

You find snobs in every venue. People are what they are. Just go enjoy your dog, find the group where you fit and have fun.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I like agility best. People are great and you have so many options for organizations. Look into ASCA as well. They have rally, obedience and agility. DOCNA for agility.
> 
> You find snobs in every venue. People are what they are. Just go enjoy your dog, find the group where you fit and have fun.


Exactly. Have fun.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> As I said before, I am a big sissy so I have to work on myself before I could compete in a less supportive atmosphere than rally....


If you want the MOST supportive atmosphere, find a flyball club.  It's all about the fun, and it's an extremely cooperative sport by its very nature.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do both. 

I am better at rally because I have trouble hearing, especially in auditoriums. I can make out what you are saying if I am looking at you, but taking commands from a judge when I am walking away from him is hard. 

Rally is fun and I don't need the judge to tell me anything. It is all spelled out for me. 

I have put CDs on multiple dogs, and I have put rally titles on more dogs. From a training point of view, I think obedience is easier. If you train the dog to heel, and to sit when you stop, there are just a few more commands, that you must train, and voila the dog is titled. In training classes we train the sit stay and the down stay with other dogs, in rally there is no use for this, in obedience it is one of the tests. Some people have trouble with this, and some people are wary of having their dog attacked. 

When I started doing obedience it was rare that a dog attacked during the stays. I think that when the host of Rally newcomers graduated to obedience, there dogs weren't ready and they took them anyway, and dogs that did not belong at a show yet, were in a position to make bad mistakes. That's too bad. 

I think too many obedience people look at Rally as people who are not serious about training, kind of like a red-headed step brother -- we know he is there, but we don't talk about him, and amongst our friends and relatives, we turn up our noses, so no one lumps us in with that crowd. And that is unfortunate. 

I think some of what is encouraged in rally grates on the nerves of obedience people -- multiple commands and constant talking and praising the dog. What really happens is that it makes it more difficult to train the dog. Those are things serious trainers already know to avoid and watching it from the sidelines makes you want to go in there and slap the owner. And watching some lady bent over with a fake cookie the entire time luring the dog, you feel that dog shouldn't get a placement, that dog shouldn't even be here yet. 

So, I mean, I see both sides. The obedience people don't want to waste their time on Rally people because they aren't here for the long haul and they do not seem serious. On the other hand, the rally people are having fun with their dogs, and their dogs are being trained, moreso than what basic obedience training classes will give you. It does promote a relationship with the dog. It has a lot of merit really.

The CD tends to hold more weight than the RN, but the people getting their RN have trained their dogs, entered them, paid, and their dogs have to be able to manage in the environment. 

The other thing is precision. Obedience is more precise, or so they say. But no one asks you if you passed with a 170 or a 198. So they scratched half a point here or there for crooked sits, and a few points for getting out of position on the heeling. I am shocked at what actually passes in the obedience ring. A CD is a CD, whether you got 3 blue ribbons, or 3 green ribbons. And when the obedience people turn up their noses at the rally people for what qualifies in Rally, you can say the same out obedience. Only those who are competing against themselves, their score, are actually getting satisfaction.


----------



## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have not competed in anything but can see myself not hearing clearly what the judge instructs because I would get nervous- my block. Rally looks fun.


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

There are a lot of "old guard" people in obedience. It's the oldest of the AKC's companion events, and for a long time, was the only game in town. 

A lot of people who had been competing in obedience for a long time weren't happy when rally was introduced It was looked down on as "obedience lite", and not a "real sport". And oh, wow, the furor that was raised over the last Obedience Advisory Committee..... well, you would have thought that the zombie apocalypse was coming, or something. Those of us who were happy to see the new preferred track classes introduced were treated like we were singlehandedly going to dismantle the entire world order. 

And let's not get started on AKC versus other venues like CDSP, WCRL, or worse yet, online titling venues like CRO and NCO. I mean, everyone knows that anything you can do via video is "worthless". Funny thing about that... someone in the NCO Facebook said that her dogs have multiple high level titles in several different organizations, yet they are struggling with a level 1 NCO exercise. 

As for "pure positive" trainers not able to compete at higher levels in AKC... 1) there is no such thing as "pure positive" training; 2) I know of several upper level dogs that are trained with positive, reward based methods, including working on OTCHs and UDXs.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Personally, I like agility best. People are great and you have so many options for organizations. Look into ASCA as well. They have rally, obedience and agility. DOCNA for agility.
> 
> You find snobs in every venue. People are what they are. Just go enjoy your dog, find the group where you fit and have fun.


Just today, I was looking at the classes offered by the MSPCA and thought the Rally Obedience looked like it would be so much fun.

Here's the description:
*Rally Obedience*

Rally Obedience is a fun sport that combines the precision of competition Obedience with the fun of Agility.
In “Rally O,” it is sometimes called, the dog and handler learn 13-20 behaviors that are standard Obedience behaviors: come, sit, heel, down, stay, along with different turns, and jumps are added for fun! The challenge is that the signs are laid out in a course (see the signs here) , and the dog and handler complete the timed course in a specific manner with as few “faults” as possible. The owners are encouraged to talk to their dogs and make the experience a lot of fun for all.
Rally is one of the fastest-growing sports in the country. Sign up and give it a try!
(Your dog must, at minumum, be able to sit and walk at your left side to take this class. If you and your dog have not taken a class at the MSPCA before, please email Michalla Bishop for permission to register!)


Sorry, I couldn't access the signs that are laid out.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Rally was originally designed as a gateway to obedience and agility. But it is not anywhere near agility. Obedience has the same jumps in higher levels. So it is more properly described by "Obedience-light" or as an alternative or companion to obedience. 

The idea was that being successful in Rally, people would Rally on toward formal obedience titles or agility. 

It would be fun to have a Rally title program that was geared more toward agility. Like:
RN(A) -- Rally Novice (Agility) -- off lead, using the 30 or so RN signs, with at least 5 agility obstacles (A-frame, Dog Walk, Weave Polls, teeter, tunnel, chute, Tire, jump, etc.) interspersed with the RN signs. 

RA(A) -- Rally Advanced (Agility) -- off lead, using the added advanced signs with at least 1/2 the exercises being agility exercises. 

RE(A) -- Rally Excellent (Agility) -- off lead, using the added advanced and excellent exercises, 1/2 the exercises being agility exercises -- No Signs. 

It would be fun.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Findlay said:


> Just today, I was looking at the classes offered by the MSPCA and thought the Rally Obedience looked like it would be so much fun.
> 
> .



I never really enjoyed Rally. Loved agility but no time with IPO training.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

From a measurement perspective, I enjoy the idea of Rally. It's a sampling of a particular set of tasks all believed to be at approximately the same level of difficulty. That appeals to me.

But while it kicks our butts because polish is where we struggle, I love the precision of obedience more. It presents endless challenge. I like that. I also appreciate the predictability of knowing that when I walk into the ring to show in Novice someday, I have a very good idea of what the course will be. I won't have to worry about that aspect.

And for a sport, right now we're kind of Nosework obsessed, and she's good at it so far, so while we won't stop in obedience, I don't see adding a second sport of any kind for awhile. Or ever. We'll see.


----------



## Findlay (Jan 8, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> I never really enjoyed Rally. Loved agility but no time with* IPO training.*


 Jax
I didn't know what IPO meant.

*IPO* stands for *Internationale Prüfungs-Ordnung*. *IPO

*now if i could pronounce it. lol


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As for agility, I just don't think my boy is cut out for that. My old girl would have been a spitfire in her younger years, holy cow was she athletic.

The boy? Not so much. When he is trotting straight forward he does have a lovely fluid gate, but watching him chase a ball he just isn't especially quick or light on his feet. It is hard to explain but I just would really doubt he would do super well or even enjoy agility that much. But he isnt even a year yet so who knows, he may get more nimble? He is only just kind of outgrowing flumpy-ness Maybe I am just not used to the way he looks: he is an 80+ ASL equivalent (he is a white), she is a 65 lb WL ball of muscle (or was in her heyday)

Selzer, I really appreciate your description and perspective. I actually wondered about those group stays & whether anything went wrong in the way of a fight. I have worked mighty hard to protect my kid from bad experiences with other dogs & I would be devastated if it happened in an OB ring. Don't know how common that really is, though? 

One other distinction that occurs to me is that it seems rally is something you can practice for by yourself (at least I have), obviously I couldn't train for those group stays without a class. 

Right now I feel like I might like to try traditional OB at some point but only if I can get over my own nerves


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

And let's not get started on AKC versus other venues like CDSP, WCRL, or worse yet, online titling venues like CRO and NCO. I mean, everyone knows that anything you can do via video is "worthless". Funny thing about that... someone in the NCO Facebook said that her dogs have multiple high level titles in several different organizations, yet they are struggling with a level 1 NCO exercise. (This was a quotw from earlier, don't know why it isn't showing up with that person's info)


I started doing Cyber Rally as practice. And the old girl...not sure competing in real life is gonna be good for her but she loves doing the courses in our yard. Any little thing is a NQ in CRO! There is no score, you make one little mistake and you're out. And yes, you can just keep trying, but you can keep trying in any venue it just involves more waiting and driving. I'm not convinced CRO is significantly easier. I'm not looking for any special recognition for a CRO title (we have 1Q per dog so far). It's fun. And I have acutally gotten some helpful feedback from the judges on everything from training ideas to our actual performance. Me and my dogs are better for it so you can't tell me there is anything wrong with that


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> As for agility, I just don't think my boy is cut out for that. My old girl would have been a spitfire in her younger years, holy cow was she athletic.
> 
> The boy? Not so much. When he is trotting straight forward he does have a lovely fluid gate, but watching him chase a ball he just isn't especially quick or light on his feet. It is hard to explain but I just would really doubt he would do super well or even enjoy agility that much. But he isnt even a year yet so who knows, he may get more nimble? He is only just kind of outgrowing flumpy-ness Maybe I am just not used to the way he looks: he is an 80+ ASL equivalent (he is a white), she is a 65 lb WL ball of muscle (or was in her heyday)
> 
> ...


Yes, you practice group stays, by practicing the stay command and increasing your time with it, and doing it in different locations, and leaving the room when the dog is on a STAY. 

Yes, you need to work in a class once a week for some weeks. A class where they do group sits and downs as an exercise each week. But you would practice the stay on your own, for the most part. I had gotten Arwen so good at stay, that I walked into a show and signed her up for the CGC, without ever practicing supervised separation. I just put her on a down-stay, and went and hid behind a vehicle. When they called me back, they said she never moved a muscle. Good Girl. And there were dogs everywhere. Dogs moving are harder to take than dogs all doing their sits and downs.

At another show, a fellow had I think a Portugese water dog on a Sit-stay, and a Ridge back broke his stay and went over to her, and put his nose up under her butt and lifted her out of her stay. LOL. The judge did allow the bitch to redo her SIT STAY and she got her title leg. The boy was disqualified.


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Findlay said:


> Jax
> I didn't know what IPO meant.
> 
> *IPO* stands for *Internationale Prüfungs-Ordnung*. *IPO
> ...


let me help you with that....

.......................eye pee oh......................


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Selzer, 

That might really help us, the boy loses his mind when I try to leave him with someone. 

And he isn't too happy with someone trying to touch his feet either (he has no problem with me doing it)

I guess I raised a momma's boy. 

CGC is the next thing on our list....hope to conquer these things in class


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Regular obedience may be easier than the CGC for you. The one problem some of the less social dogs have is the STAND FOR EXAM. The judge tells you to stand your dog. You give him the stand command and then stay and walk 6' in front (on lead). Then the judge walks up to your dog from the side usually, and touches the head, back, and butt (no feet). The judge walks away, and then tells you to return to your dog. You return and walk around the dog to his shoulder and wait for her to say, Exercise Complete. 

Other than that, for your CD, no one touches or even comes near your dog. 

With the CGC:
1. They come up and greet you. No touching. 
2. They come up and greet you and ask to pet your dog -- they pet the dog on the face, chest sometimes, head. 
3. Grooming and appearance -- they run your brush down the dog's back, pick up each front paw, and touch both ears. 
4. Sit and Down -- self explanatory.
5. Stay and Recall -- pretty easy done on long line. 
6. Loose lead walking
7. Walking in a crowd. 
8. Reaction to another dog. 
9. Supervised Separation -- someone holds the leash while you go away for 3 minutes. Now they are allowed to talk to the dog, which might make it worse for some dogs. I don't know. 

I either missed one or stay and recall are separate exercises.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

CGC is definitely going to be a challenge for us:

He doesn't care to have his ears handled, I think they are ticklish. He will grudgingly let me do it.

He does not care for over the head petting.

Doesn't like a stranger to handle his paws.

Doesn't like to be separated from me. LOL why are we doing this??? 

Well, sooner or later a vet will have to handle his paws and look in his ears.

I don't need him to be a social butterfly but people love to pet the top of dog's heads and it seems like a worthwhile project to get him to tolerate it as much as he can in preparation for the day somebody just pats him on the forehead


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I do believe he would handle the CD handling better than CGC. 

He is fine with other dogs, fine with heeling through a crowd, the worst he will do if someone reaches straight at his face and he isn't into it is pull back enough to avoid it.

I think (hope) it will be good & worthwhile for him to learn this stuff


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The CGC test is very worth doing, even though we train and condition for it. I mean, a true temperament test should be done without any training. But people know what is in the TT, and they will open umbrellas around the dog, make sure they hear loud noises as pups like gun shots, will make sure they walk on a variety of surfaces, subject them to strange people. 

So, while it may say something about the dog, it might also say more about the owners and their socialization program. I am not knocking it. Just, you should be able to take an unprepared dog through that test and have him pass it. 

With the CGC, you train the different tests. You know what is coming, and some people do have to work very hard to get the dog used to each of the exercises enough to pass the test. Does it mean the dog is breedworthy? No. Does it mean the dog will not bite a toddler that comes running out of the blue and thrusts its arms around the dog's neck with a delighted squeal? Sadly, no. Does it give you information about your dog, and your dog valuable information about the world that between the two will probably prevent the reaction described, and will most likely make living with your dog, easier. Yes. And will it give you the bug to keep on keeping on with your dog, trying other venues, doing other stuff? Hopefully. Probably. It is worthwhile.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> This got brought up on the other thread and I am interested in hearing people's opinions:
> 
> Someone said a rally group had been shamed out of an obedience club by the traditional people. Why? What is it that the other folks think is so shameful about rally? Less precision? More interaction with the dog?
> 
> ...


That was me. The club is a hardcore obedience group. They had some problem with the rally teacher and used that as an excuse not to offer it again. The people titling dogs in obedience think Rally is a lazy sport and not worthy of their time.


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> The people titling dogs in obedience think Rally is a lazy sport and not worthy of their time.


Ha! More than likely, they've either tried it and failed, or else are too afraid of failing to even try it. 

I've done AKC obedience and rally with my oldest girl, and one of these days, I'll get into the ring with the younger two.... meanwhile, I do online titling. With CRO, the fact that it is strictly pass/fail makes it harder than receiving an numerical score, in my opinion. I screwed up an otherwise qualifying run by doing a sign wrong. In AKC or the like, it would have just been points off, but in CRO, it was an NQ. Also, in a live event, if the judge is looking at their scoresheet, sneezes, or whatever, and miss you doing something wrong, hey, that's that, you got a freebie. With video, they can go back and watch it again and again.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

​


LuvShepherds said:


> That was me. The club is a hardcore obedience group. They had some problem with the rally teacher and used that as an excuse not to offer it again. The people titling dogs in obedience think Rally is a lazy sport and not worthy of their time.


We've run across that a few times in our time. But you'd be amazed (and so would those owners!) that high level obedience handlers often have a hard time with rally. 
Many of them train on conditioning. The dog knows that you will do A, B, C, and D and even though the order you do them might vary there are really no surprises in the ring. The owners and dogs both seem to have a problem with the ever changing courses and many of the dogs have issues with all the signs in the ring. They are used to a completely bare working area.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

@ selzer, re: CGC

Yes, I understand the limitations of what passing CGC means. 

I am not sure what it says about him that he does not care for particular types of petting/handling by strangers? When we recently had guests in our home the gentleman gave him a manly pet on the forhead and he was totally cool with it. I have seen him avoid it out in public. He is more social and relaxed at home than out in public. The ear thing has been an issue @ vet, I have been working on it.

On the whole I think I underestimated how hard it would be to expose him to enough given where we live. I can say I never had anyone outside the family handle his feet, should I have done that, to accustom him to it? At this point I guess so.

For the sake of making sure he isn't unmanageable at the vet I think the CGC is good practice. So far he is the best behaved I have ever had for nail clipping. I can do most anything I want to him, some things I need hubby to hold him for, like I can't take his temp alone, need hubby to keep him from out squirming me.

I don't see him objecting to the brushing thing, he loves it when I do it, but have not tested with someone outside the family.

Is it a temperament flaw if he objects to a stranger picking up his front feet in a petco aisle? He didn't do anything especially dramatic, he just pulled his foot away and backed up a step.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Selzer are you saying an unprepared dog should be able to pass both TT and CGC or just TT?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just the TT. AKC offers a temperament test, and a dog should be able to pass that without being groomed for it. But a lot of people start their grooming in the whelping box. Just like a dog has to allow a judge to check his berries. Show people get those dogs up on tables, having friends do berry checks at 8 weeks or so. For the young dog who goes into the ring having never had that done, it is interesting to see the expression he gives when the judge checks him out -- been there, done that. Rushie was a good boy, just totally startled. 

I think you have to understand that the CGC and even the TT are made up by all-breed fanciers, a test not so much for temperament, but behavior in the case of the CGC. The TT might take some consideration into the breed, not very familiar with it. But for sure the CGC is not made up with GSDs in mind. That doesn't mean a good GSD shouldn't pass. Even a poor GSD can be worked with and pass the CGC. 

A dislike of strangers handling his head, his paws, etc, does not indicate poor temperament. But a dog with good character will learn to accept it without protest if the owner works with the dog, makes it clear to the dog that this is going to be done and what is and what is not appropriate.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well I don't have to worry about berry checks. He only has one, so no point in ever entering him anywhere requiring two  

Speaking of that, OB doesn't care about nuts, right? Only conformation?

I really appreciate your insight on the CGC & TT. We will be working on it (CGC) He is a good kid, I think he will get the message


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well I don't have to worry about berry checks. He only has one, so no point in ever entering him anywhere requiring two
> 
> Speaking of that, OB doesn't care about nuts, right? Only conformation?
> 
> I really appreciate your insight on the CGC & TT. We will be working on it (CGC) He is a good kid, I think he will get the message


No, OB (or Rally) doesn't care about nuts, only conformation requires two testicles. Any AKC registered purebred can do obedience, full registration, limited, or PAL (Purebred Alternative Listing) registration. In some shows mongrels can be shown as well, but they must have a CAR -- Companion Animal Registration, I think, through AKC.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah he is AKC registered, just sadly never dropped that second nut.

We got a confirmation for our entries in our second rally trial. It is a much bigger venue & trial, hope we don't fall apart!

Regardless of anything else, I am very happy with my boy. I find him easy to train, super easy to live with, and willing to try hard at anything I have yet asked of him.


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

selzer said:


> In some shows mongrels can be shown as well, but they must have a CAR -- Companion Animal Registration, I think, through AKC.


Close. It's Canine Companions Listing, and is for mixed breeds and purebreds who are not an approved, miscellaneous or Foundation Stock Services breed. They can compete in all companion events that are open to all breeds, including obedience, rally, agility, CATs and tracking, as long as the host club permits them. (Very few clubs these days _don't_ have their events open to them.)


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

LeoRose said:


> Close. It's Canine Companions Listing, and is for mixed breeds and purebreds who are not an approved, miscellaneous or Foundation Stock Services breed. They can compete in all companion events that are open to all breeds, including obedience, rally, agility, CATs and tracking, as long as the host club permits them. (Very few clubs these days _don't_ have their events open to them.)


Sigh.... you'd think that someone who has two dogs with Canine *Partners* listings would remember the name of the program.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So it's CPR? 

I mean, CPL? 

I don't know where I got CAR from.


----------



## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

selzer said:


> So it's CPR?
> 
> I mean, CPL?
> 
> I don't know where I got CAR from.


Maybe from their microchip registry? It used to be called Companion Animal Recovery before they changed it to Reunite. 

I'm not sure what the exact acronym for the Canine Partners listing is. I usually just write the whole thing out.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well I don't have to worry about berry checks. He only has one, so no point in ever entering him anywhere requiring two
> 
> Speaking of that, OB doesn't care about nuts, right? Only conformation?
> 
> I really appreciate your insight on the CGC & TT. We will be working on it (CGC) He is a good kid, I think he will get the message


If you duel register with UKC, they have an altered conformation CH titles as well.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LeoRose said:


> Maybe from their microchip registry? It used to be called Companion Animal Recovery before they changed it to Reunite.
> 
> I'm not sure what the exact acronym for the Canine Partners listing is. I usually just write the whole thing out.


 
Yeah that's it. Thanks.


----------

