# Neuturing Question



## KaliGurl (Jun 24, 2009)

I have a 17 month old gorgeous GSD, Lukas, who is a tad on the aggressive side. Both towards other people and other dogs. A double whammy. We got Lukas when he was 4 months old, from a breeder who had several dogs (3 males, 3 females, and about 5 puppies left at various stages in age) and noticed he was a bit 'protective' of his surroundings already when we got him home. I usually like to get a GSD at 8 weeks, but fell in love with Lukas at first sight. We have a Lab also, but he's not aggressive towards her at all. He's more protective of her. 

Out on walks he tends to growl at people and wants to get at other dogs. After a few corrective moves, he's under control and we continue on our walks. We've been through basic obedience training, that has helped - especially on what "I" need to do when given the above situation, it has helped. He also gets a tad better each time I take him out. Persistance is working and I know I have to keep it going. He's now 110 lbs and his strength is getting harder to control. I cannot walk both my dogs anymore due to his strength when he tries to get at another dog. So, I walk them separately (unless I take them out to the field near our home and let them run). My fear is one day he will surprise me on a walk with a quick bolt to get at something and the control I 'thought' I had will be gone. I feel nervous at times now when we go out and I know he feels that with me. He's a great listener and does follow my commands when given the situation, but still - that quick surprise haunts me.

My plan when we got him was to breed him. Obviously that is now out of the question with his behaivor. I want to neutur him and will be talking with my vet next week during his appt about this decision. 

My main goal here is to get feedback from fellow GSD owners about this process with an _older_ dog. (1) WILL he settle down? (2) At his age is he now set in his ways that neuturing will not 'calm' him? (3) I hear so much about the cons of neuturing a dog as far as health goes (i.e. bad for his bones, weight gain (that is obvious), certain tumors, (4) Should I just take a deep breath and go for it . . .

I would appreciate any feedback on this decision.

I have always had female dogs and have always spayed them. This is my first male and my first _male _GSD.

Thanks for any 'support' you can give me!


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm not sure about the 'bad for his bones' part. That is true point if the dog gets neutered too early, but at 17 months he's close to maturity. I think the weight gain can be monitored by the owner, and I'm not sure about the tumors, can't be too risky.

The procedure will definitely change him, but will not totally alter his temperament. You will still need to work on obediance, but it sounds like you are already on top of that. 

IMO the only time a dog should not be neutered is if it is used to breed, or seriously participating in competitions. Alternatevily, his urges or drive has no outlet. That my opinion only. I don't want to start a debate.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I wanted to wait until my GSD was at least 2 years old before I neutered him. I wanted him to reach sexual maturity before I altered him. We never had any issues, he did start to get bratty and wasn't listening as good for about 2 weeks, but due to dog park rules he had to be neutered at 15 months old. After I got him neutered the brattyness went away and he listens to me perfectly now.


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

I could be wrong, but don't males reach sexual maturity by 7 - 12 months. My concerns was always more with the growth of the dog. I think most of the side effects are caused by changed hormone levels while the dog is still growing.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

crisp said:


> I could be wrong, but don't males reach sexual maturity by 7 - 12 months. My concerns was always more with the growth of the dog. I think most of the side effects are caused by changed hormone levels while the dog is still growing.


:blush:

Sorry, I meant physically mature, which happens about 2-3 years old, I believe.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

KaliGurl said:


> weight gain (that is obvious),


Not really. Weight gain in dogs is due to a balance of calories in, calories out just like it is in humans. Neutering might make him _slightly_ less active and alter his metabolism _slightly_, but dogs gain weight when they eat more calories than they burn. Keep him active and feed him right and there will be no issues. 

My Rocky is 8 years old, was neutered at 9 months, and has always stayed quite lean and trim because he's _active_ and I don't overfeed him. Cash was neutered and he was so active I had a hard time keeping weight on him. This idea that weight gain mysteriously appears out of nowhere is as counterproductive for dogs as it is for people. 

/rant


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## crisp (Jun 23, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> :blush:
> 
> Sorry, I meant physically mature, which happens about 2-3 years old, I believe.


 I agree. But, its so hard to wait that long with pressure from vets, etc. Best to do your own research and stand your ground.


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## Tehillah (Jun 21, 2010)

At this age his growth plates are pretty much done and closed thus you do not need to worry about neutering being bad for his bones. I would neuter him as soon as possible. it will help with some of the dominance issues you are having. 
You also need to get control of his other issues now while you still have opportunity to do so. Without knowing your dog I think some of it's issues are from a lack of socialization when he was a young pup prior to you purchasing him. He was not socialized well! You need to get a handle on the aggression to people immediately. I would try to seek out help from aclnowledgable trainer asap. You may want to try to get people to start giving him treats so he sees this as positive and not something to fear. It is hard to give a lot of advice over the Internet as we don't get to see all that is going on. That is why a good trainer is important.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

crisp said:


> I agree. *But, its so hard to wait that long with pressure from vets*, etc. Best to do your own research and stand your ground.


My Vet gave me crap every single time that I went there. Even when I wasn't bringing him in, I was bringing in one of the cats! When I got him neutered I took him to a different Vet.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

While I don't think that neutering at this point would be a bad decision, I also wouldn't expect it to be a total fix for his behavior. Maybe it would help eliminate additional stresses so that you could work more effectively on your behavior training, but I wouldn't expect him to suddenly settle down and get along wtih everyone. 

It sounds like from your description that aggression is part of his core personality that even showed itself back when he was a puppy. That tells me that your problems are not totally rooted in maturing male aggression. There are aggressive spayed and neutered dogs out there...obviously the procedure didn't fix them. A dominant dog does not become submissive just because you remove hormones, and a fearfully aggressive dog does not suddenly become steady nerved because you took away the hormones. 

Like I said though, at this point I don't think it will hurt. I would schedule the appointment.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

crisp said:


> I could be wrong, but don't males reach sexual maturity by 7 - 12 months.


Man, I hope not. Hondo is 11 months old........


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Neutering your dog will remove his ability to reproduce and that is about it.

Some dogs will stop humping and marking. At this point aggression is not connected to his gonads. 

If you do not take the problem in hand with a good trainer or behaviorist, this problem will not get better, and you may have a serious liability, and the dog may end up paying the ultimate for it. 

If the dog is aggressive now because of poor socialization early on, this is now your fault as you have had the dog for 13 months and should have been working on socializing the dog from the time you got him, and if whatever you have been doing has not been working, you should have sought help before now.

If the dog is aggressive due to a genetic/inborn predisposition toward protectiveness, guarding, aggression, dominance the dog was probably just not the dog for you. And in a different setting his talents might be trained, used, and appreciated. 

If the dog is aggressive because of some other reason, weak nerves, dominant, poor leadership/training. I don't know. 

Pups can be successfully placed at six months or even beyond. Many people like to get them at eight weeks because then they are in charge of early socialization, but it is not required. Many dogs land in rescue and are successfully rehabilitated and rehomed. 

in any case, after having a dog for a year, if you are having aggression problems, you have to take the bull by the horns so to speak. Read up on NILIF, change your leadership style, take the boy to classes, and exercise him properly. A seventeen month old puppy is still an adolescent and it would be a terrible shame if this dog is not helped.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know my post is a bit harsh, but you want to be a breeder. Blaming his breeder for how your dog is currently acting will probably be the same down the line with someone blaming you for how their dog will act. It is COMPLETELY useless, as it will not help the dog at all. When we blame the breeder, it completely removes any blame from ourselves and destines the dog to whatever lies ahead. Because if this is due to his upbringing or his genetic makeup, what is the point of training and leadership?

So what you need to do is to change what you are doing with this dog because it is NOT working. Become a German Shepherd expert. And then start your breeding program with a bitch, not a dog. You can always find a dog that complements your bitch and pay a stud fee. But finding a bitch you do not own that is a complement to your dog and convincing the bitch's owner to use your dog is a whole other story. 

In any case, you need to be on the giving end of advice about training, socializing, leadership before you can hope to make a good breeder. Good breeders will support their dogs' new owners with advice down the line. 

I would say the vast majority of behavior problems are due to a lack of training and leadership, so no matter how well you choose your breeding stock, and how good of a start you give them, you will have people calling you with issues. 

With this dog, who probably should never be bred, you can learn a whole lot. We do not learn nearly as much by nice, submissive, compliant dogs as we learn from the tough ones.

Good luck.


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## Stogey (Jun 29, 2010)

JKlatsky said:


> While I don't think that neutering at this point would be a bad decision, I also wouldn't expect it to be a total fix for his behavior. Maybe it would help eliminate additional stresses so that you could work more effectively on your behavior training, but I wouldn't expect him to suddenly settle down and get along wtih everyone.
> 
> It sounds like from your description that aggression is part of his core personality that even showed itself back when he was a puppy. That tells me that your problems are not totally rooted in maturing male aggression. There are aggressive spayed and neutered dogs out there...obviously the procedure didn't fix them. A dominant dog does not become submissive just because you remove hormones, and a fearfully aggressive dog does not suddenly become steady nerved because you took away the hormones.
> 
> Like I said though, at this point I don't think it will hurt. I would schedule the appointment.


I agree totally with this statement ! I got DJ when he was just over a year ole, he had already been neutered ... DJ does not like other animals especially CATS !!! But he'll pounce a dog his size or bigger in a heart beat, he seems to tolerate small dogs. He and my neighbors Min Pin are best buds


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree totally with what Selzer said. I have a male AKC registered Golden Retriever with aggression issues. He was a very poorly bred dog, and has many many health problems. We had him altered when he three or four and it changed nothing. He is now entering his golden years and has settled down some, but I still would not trust him outside of the family.


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## kelso (Jan 22, 2007)

selzer said:


> Neutering your dog will remove his ability to reproduce and that is about it.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

When we got Tanner at 1.5 years old and was neutered. We don't know what he was like before the neutering.

I think it all depends on the dog, the dog's breed and other things. Neutering helps and somtimes doesn't. Will I have a unaltered male?Maybe, but I don't know. I would always get my males neutered when they are fully matured and that depends on he breed.


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## KaliGurl (Jun 24, 2009)

Thank you all so much for your feedback! It's extremely helpful.

@selzer - your post was not harsh at all! I completely agree with everything you said. I was not blaming the breeder for my dog's behaivor. I do know that I am completely to blame. He is agressive towards other dogs and people, lately (past 4 months) he has calmed down compared to previously, but still wants to show he's alpha. Most of this behaivor is immediately when we leave the home, he's chalked full of energy and wanting the world to know he's out and ready. But after a good workout, he's to tired to give a crap about anyone or any other dog. He gets walked in the morning and in the evening I take him over to a field where he plays ball and runs. I can't do too much during the summer mid-day, it's just too hot with 100 degree weather (we live in TX).

I will be getting him fixed in a week or two. I think I'll look into a one on one training. Group training is what I received. It was a great class, but the trainer had me and my dog back in a corner and everyone else out in the open. I wanted to have him involved with the rest of the group. The reason she did this is when I walked him into the group, he tugged and growled at everyone. Once we were in our area, and the classes started, he fully participated. Sometimes better than the other dogs. Great listener, followed all my commands, etc. When it was time to leave, he pulled and growled again. I think one on one may be what I need.

Thanks again for all your input. If anyone is from the Houston area, and have a good reference on a trainer, I'd greatly appreciate it!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One on one will not get him past dog-dog issues. Best to do that in a class where there are other dogs. Being off by the side is still good because you are near other people and their dogs. 

Alpha or Dominance in dogs is not really something you would eliminate a dog from your breeding stock for. Not saying your boy should be bred. Just that an alpha or dominant dog is actually a very good thing for some persuits. But it takes a very experienced handler to deal with it. If it is dominance or the alpha dog, that does not mean every dog in the litter will be dominant or alpha. It is more a pack order/litter order sort of thing. 

However other things like dog aggression, people aggression, etc can indicate other types of problems. A dog will often become people aggressive when he does not trust his owner to be in charge of the situation and he must protect every one and take charge. It is not his cup of tea and it makes him nervous, and always on edge. He will bite to protect himself and his family because that is his job and nobody else has the position so he has taken it. 

That would suggest the leadership role is not clearly defined.

Or he may be afraid of strangers. However much he is growling and barking and acting like the aggressor, he may be really afraid and willing to bite out of fear. 

this could be due to lack of socialization or weak nerves. In either case breeding would be out of the question at this point.

Dog aggression may be leadership issues, it may be that his undersocialized and afraid of other dogs. 

The thing is we really do not know what the underlying issue is. And until that is determined and rectified or managed, making the decision not to breed makes sense, and that could mean not breeding him ever. Which seems to be where you are. 

I do not think neutering will help. But he is still young. I really think that a lot of times people neuter males when they are in their adolescent phase and voila the dog starts acting better. But he may have anyway. I think that if you continue to work with a boy through the adolescent phase he can overcome most of these issues without surgery. 

And when dogs are snipped at 3 and 5, etc, guess what? No change. Why? Because the dog is what he is at that point. Younger he has not yet reached that final potential. 

I think that connecting with a good trainer/behaviorist will let you understand whether you dog is aggressing out of fear or out of some other behavior. And will give you tools to help change or manage the condition. 

If the problem is from poor socialization, working with him in isolation will not help at all. I have been there and already made that mistake.


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## KaliGurl (Jun 24, 2009)

I've spent all day researching training classes. Talked with several obedience trainers/behaivorists and I found one that starts September 11. It's a group training class, outside, and I will be off to the side, but still close enough for Lukas to be around other people and dogs and have a personal one on one trainer working directly with us. The program sounds more involved than what we had before. 

Thank you all for your input, honestly and directness! I appreciate all the information I gathered here and will put it all to good use.

Lukas thanks you as well! Here's a picture of him. My handsome boy!


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

KaliGurl said:


> I've spent all day researching training classes. Talked with several obedience trainers/behaivorists and I found one that starts September 11. It's a group training class, outside, and I will be off to the side, but still close enough for Lukas to be around other people and dogs and have a personal one on one trainer working directly with us. The program sounds more involved than what we had before.
> 
> Thank you all for your input, honestly and directness! I appreciate all the information I gathered here and will put it all to good use.
> 
> Lukas thanks you as well! Here's a picture of him. My handsome boy!


He is very beautiful!!


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