# Koningsdorf



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Any input? Searched the forum and found not much.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Any input? Searched the forum and found not much.


I don't know her personally, but I can tell you she is feisty 

Here is some good information for you - I like this quote lol :

"This is a discussion board....not a courage test. But as in a courage test......those with high pitched barking and raised hackles may receive lower scores. But that is, of course, at the discretion of the judge." - Sarah






What makes DDR dog bloodline or type - Page 1







www.pedigreedatabase.com













Konigsdorf Shepherds


Konigsdorf Shepherds. 1,315 likes · 126 talking about this. German Shepherd Dogs, working dogs, DDR dogs, East German Shepherds, SAR dogs




www.facebook.com


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

@Sabis mom

Just to be clear. I just liked the quote.

The quote isn't for you personally lol, just the good information in the thread.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> @Sabis mom
> 
> Just to be clear. I just liked the quote.
> 
> The quote isn't for you personally lol, just the good information in the thread.


I love that. Can we put it on the banner? Lol.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

She has been breeding for quite a while I think. I have seen dogs from her in the past but that was a while back


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Yeah, a quick web search showed numerous other kennels using her dogs in their lines as well. Good lookin dogs!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

She has been breeding East German dogs for a very long time. I feel like you would like her. You might as well just talk to her.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I have no interest in talking to her at this time I was just curious what people thought about her program. Her dogs seem to pop up in a lot of other kennels, but interestingly she seems to not hold onto many for breeding herself. I was digging into a dogs background and her breeding stock seem to come from everywhere else.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I have no interest in talking to her at this time I was just curious what people thought about her program. Her dogs seem to pop up in a lot of other kennels, but interestingly she seems to not hold onto many for breeding herself. I was digging into a dogs background and her breeding stock seem to come from everywhere else.


I’ve said before how rare programs built generation upon generation of their own dogs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I also see no indication that she titles anything but with just FB I have no clue.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Yep, for me a Facebook only kennel is typically a no go. Though in this case, her dogs look awesome and they show up as breeding stock in so many different kennels that it seemed worth noting.

Thinkin about puppies are we?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I also see no indication that she titles anything but with just FB I have no clue.


That isn’t exactly uncommon among breeders who are breeding only DDR lines exclusively. Not saying that it’s true or not for her, I’ve never looked into her kennel.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Fraserglen Kennels list/use/ or own one of her imported studs.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> Fraserglen Kennels own one of her imported studs.


They also own Ellie Mae. Koningsdorf apparently bred two or three litters out of her, and did her health testing.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I also see no indication that she titles anything but with just FB I have no clue.


If @David Winners says, Valor would pass a shutzhund test. I don't need to see the paper.

Military grade on top.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> If @David Winners says, Valor would pass a shutzhund test. I don't need to see the paper.
> 
> Military grade on top.


I could throw you a dozen stellar working dogs who would fail miserably at many contrived sports. My partner Billy was sold to a gentleman who had thoughts of titles. I do not believe it went well. My first partner would have bitten someone, likely not the decoy since he liked schooling handlers. Lol.
Regardless my question was merely an inquiry since the dogs show up all over pedigrees.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> I could throw you a dozen stellar working dogs who would fail miserably at many contrived sports. My partner Billy was sold to a gentleman who had thoughts of titles. I do not believe it went well. My first partner would have bitten someone, likely not the decoy since he liked schooling handlers. Lol.


That is even better lol

I'm hearing of some natural civility from that litter


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

We bought a dog from her many years ago. Half east and half west. My impression is that it is primarily a business for her. PM me for info. She had a laundry list of issues. We returned the dog at 10 months and bought a young male from Paul Harnage instead and put a Sch 3 on him.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Kias is Fraserglen's Hugo Stasi x Ava vom Konigsdorf. The pair threw reactive, nervous aggression in several of the litter's puppies, but the dam herself was nice from what I saw. The breeder says she is Belgian lines.
Ava vom Konigsdorf's parents for anyone interested:





Arkan Von Der Gnadehund


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Arkan Von Der Gnadehund




www.pedigreedatabase.com









Wolf Lagers Xea Von Der Couer


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Wolf Lagers Xea Von Der Couer




www.pedigreedatabase.com


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

rotdocpa1 said:


> We bought a dog from her many years ago. Half east and half west. My impression is that it is primarily a business for her. PM me for info. She had a laundry list of issues. We returned the dog at 10 months and bought a young male from Paul Harnage instead and put a Sch 3 on him.


What were your reasons for returning the dog?


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Sunsilver said:


> What were your reasons for returning the dog?


Wondering the same.


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

Kathrynil said:


> Wondering the same.


We picked the pup up on the way back from vacation so she was about 10 weeks. She promptly hid under the furniture and would not come out. I expressed concern but she insisted she was having an off day. I should have walked away but all my young children were there and excited. The nerve issues went downhill from there. At about 14 wks she started staring at her tail and then chasing it. This could go on for hours. I recognized the issue quickly and tried intense exercise, classes and meds. Clomicalm helped the most along with avoiding triggers. By 9-10 months she started going after the other dogs over food, balls, even the water bowl. When she went after our ancient blind and deaf terrier over a water bowl I had enough and called the breeder. She told me others out of the sire had significant food aggression also. She rehomed her as an only dog. Because of this I have avoided East German lines. We currently have a retired Gerry morfelder land daughter that is w german and belgian lines that did a sch 2 and her son who is getting ready for his BH and sch 1 as well as young female pup from her also.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I would have returned her at the hiding under the furniture stage! A confident, strong-nerved pup does NOT act like that!

When I got my show line pup home from the breeder, she began playing with my fully grown male GSD under my supervision. He was very gentle with her, and she was an absolute BRAT - hiding under his belly and biting his legs!


My working line pup needed some coaxing to come out of her crate, after a flight that lasted 14 miserable hours, but within 5 minutes, she was playing with the leash. The next morning, she and a friend's GSD pup had a hilarious fight over the flirt pole!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

rotdocpa1 said:


> We picked the pup up on the way back from vacation so she was about 10 weeks. She promptly hid under the furniture and would not come out. I expressed concern but she insisted she was having an off day. I should have walked away but all my young children were there and excited. The nerve issues went downhill from there. At about 14 wks she started staring at her tail and then chasing it. This could go on for hours. I recognized the issue quickly and tried intense exercise, classes and meds. Clomicalm helped the most along with avoiding triggers. By 9-10 months she started going after the other dogs over food, balls, even the water bowl. When she went after our ancient blind and deaf terrier over a water bowl I had enough and called the breeder. She told me others out of the sire had significant food aggression also. She rehomed her as an only dog. Because of this I have avoided East German lines. We currently have a retired Gerry morfelder land daughter that is w german and belgian lines that did a sch 2 and her son who is getting ready for his BH and sch 1 as well as young female pup from her also.


Wow! That's a lot more then food aggression. I would have sent her back as well. 

FWIW My Bud was largely East German and he was a great dog. Good with other dogs, cats not so much, and steady. Some issues that stemmed from prolonged abuse but not a bad dog. I was the weak link, not him. Real aggression, highly territorial and very protective of his pack. Not much prey drive. He liked the fight, but it was no game to him. If you started it he would finish it. He seldom barked which made him a bit dangerous, and he was athletic as **** but he never would have scored well. He was a big, imposing, deliberate dog. Always on guard. I wouldn't call him biddable, but he was very handler oriented, to one handler and only one. In his little brain you threaten me and you needed to stop breathing. Permanently. 
I love the East German lines. And this guy is just a Hunk!
Xoran vom Ludwigseck – working-dog (working-dog.com)


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## rotdocpa1 (Mar 19, 2018)

We do have one east german cross in our training group that I like but I will likely stick to my WG/belgian lines. Unfortunately she was my first shepherd and I followed the breeders guidance. My young male is bomb proof and his sister looks promising so I am happy with my current generation. Many from the first litter are out working real jobs. Unfortunately my DDR experience was a poor one.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> They also own Ellie Mae. Koningsdorf apparently bred two or three litters out of her, and did her health testing.













👊


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Kathrynil said:


> Kias is Fraserglen's Hugo Stasi x Ava vom Konigsdorf. The pair threw reactive, nervous aggression in several of the litter's puppies, but the dam herself was nice from what I saw. The breeder says she is Belgian lines.
> Ava vom Konigsdorf's parents for anyone interested:
> 
> 
> ...


There are some heavy hitters in Ava's pedigree.

How is your pup doing? How are his environmental nerves - solid on all surfaces, gun shot etc. ?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> 👊


Valor has the makings of a good patrol dog, and he keeps getting better as he matures. There are some differences in temperament compared to Gus that Ellie Mae brought. I think Valor is an easier dog to handle than Gus. No disrespect to Sapphire, but it may be due to foundation as well. I think he is more handler sensitive than Gus and that points to Ellie Mae.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Valor has the makings of a good patrol dog, and he keeps getting better as he matures. There are some differences in temperament compared to Gus that Ellie Mae brought. I think Valor is an easier dog to handle than Gus. No disrespect to Sapphire, but it may be due to foundation as well. I think he is more handler sensitive than Gus and that points to Ellie Mae.


You do know I have been watching Ellie Mae since she was a pup right? Lol.


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Valor has the makings of a good patrol dog, and he keeps getting better as he matures. There are some differences in temperament compared to Gus that Ellie Mae brought. I think Valor is an easier dog to handle than Gus. No disrespect to Sapphire, but it may be due to foundation as well. I think he is more handler sensitive than Gus and that points to Ellie Mae.


What's Ellie Mae like?


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Kathrynil said:


> Kias is Fraserglen's Hugo Stasi x Ava vom Konigsdorf. The pair threw reactive, nervous aggression in several of the litter's puppies, but the dam herself was nice from what I saw. The breeder says she is Belgian lines.
> Ava vom Konigsdorf's parents for anyone interested:
> 
> 
> ...


This is not a fraserglen litter. Fraserglen does not own either dog. Sheena imported Ellie Mae from Sarah. Ellie Mae was pregnant with Hugo pups at the time.
It is important to list the correct kennel name/breeder when referring to reactive and nervous aggression of the pups produced.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> You do know I have been watching Ellie Mae since she was a pup right? Lol.


No, I didn't know that


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> No, I didn't know that


I had lost track of her until you got Valor. Lol.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

SuperAndre said:


> What's Ellie Mae like?


What I know of Ellie Mae is that she is very nice and has good nerves, and several knowledgeable people I know love her pedigree.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Saphire said:


> This is not a fraserglen litter. Fraserglen does not own either dog. Sheena imported Ellie Mae from Sarah. Ellie Mae was pregnant with Hugo pups at the time.
> It is important to list the correct kennel name/breeder when referring to reactive and nervous aggression of the pups produced.


I'm sorry. I did not mean to imply that the dogs linked were Fraserglen dogs. Ava vom Konigsdorf is owned by a private breeder; those dogs are her parents. The nervy litter was between her and Hugo Stasi by a private breeder.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Jen84 said:


> There are some heavy hitters in Ava's pedigree.
> 
> How is your pup doing? How are his environmental nerves - solid on all surfaces, gun shot etc. ?


He's a loyal one person dog. Very serious and sharp, but very obedient to his handler.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I just looked up Hugo's pedigree on the PDB, and he's registered with the BCU. What registry is that? The Stasi, was, of course, the DDR secret police, but none of the dogs with that kennel name are registered with the DDR.

His grand-dam is with the DHS - have also never heard of that registry 
before.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Valor has the makings of a good patrol dog, and he keeps getting better as he matures. There are some differences in temperament compared to Gus that Ellie Mae brought. I think Valor is an easier dog to handle than Gus. No disrespect to Sapphire, but it may be due to foundation as well. *I think he is more handler sensitive than Gus and that points to Ellie Mae.*


That makes sense.

I'm not sure what your plans are, but it would be interesting if you could somehow test his natural civilness when his drives mature. And I mean test if he will bite for real without training - also known as a type 1 dog to some. I also believe that Carmen likes to do the same thing with a dog over 15 months.

I say this, because I have a suspicion that your dog and possibly a few others from the litter may exhibit this trait. All those reverse masks going back to Ex Reidstern 

I know there is no doubt that you can train Valor to bite "civil", it would just be a neat to see what is naturally there.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Regardless my question was merely an inquiry since the dogs show up all over pedigrees.


I know you were interested in titles.

Here you can see a multiple WUSV competitor and trainer had no problem breeding to one of Konigdorf's untitled males - whose mother and grandma were titled - not sure if it was Sarah that actually put the title on it though. Super pedigree - Enno being a Lord grandson:







Coal von Narnia


Pedigree information about the German Shepherd Dog Coal von Narnia




www.pedigreedatabase.com





10 year old handling Coal


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> BCU. What registry is that?





Statistics: Belorussian Cynological Union (BCU) (BELARUS)


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> That makes sense.
> 
> I'm not sure what your plans are, but it would be interesting if you could somehow test his natural civilness when his drives mature. And I mean test if he will bite for real without training - also known as a type 1 dog to some. I also believe that Carmen likes to do the same thing with a dog over 15 months.
> 
> ...


He has passed a boogie man test already, surprisingly forward for his age. I would have liked to get it on video but it was a fellow trainer messing with me and I wasn't aware it was going to happen. 

Other than Nosework, I'm not sure what formal sports will be in our future. The more I think about how he is maturing, and the current state of affairs, the more I want to train PP and not worry about IPG. I don't find IPG to be a suitable foundation for a PPD, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

I'm not in a hurry to put any real civil pressure on him. That would be later this year at least. I am using physical pressure in training and he is holding up well. An interesting mix of hard and soft that is useful if I'm smart about it. He will work through pressure if that's what I want, but yields to it immediately if it's accompanied with a verbal correction. He's a tough dog for 9 months. He also wants to please like a lab.

I'll get more video when the weather breaks.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> He has passed a boogie man test already, surprisingly forward for his age. I would have liked to get it on video but it was a fellow trainer messing with me and I wasn't aware it was going to happen.
> 
> Other than Nosework, I'm not sure what formal sports will be in our future. The more I think about how he is maturing, and the current state of affairs, the more I want to train PP and not worry about IPG. I don't find IPG to be a suitable foundation for a PPD, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.
> 
> ...


Based on your descriptions of Valor and Gus, I’d say he’s probably capable of starting more man oriented work now. One of the bog things the people I train with like to see is a strong forward reaction for man work. Based on what I have seen now and the discussions we’ve had, I probably would have waited till Cion was 6 + months and started his protection training with more of a man orientation. We never did any rag work or stuff like that for grip. His grip didn’t really need it.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Here is Carmen, who I believe is quoting @Vandal :

putting this on here , in addition to another thread , because this is so important . I have yet to have anyone "show" me -- it is NOT about training , and it is not about obedience -- Anne , ms Vandal knows what it is --

quote " I think there is a difference in an ideal dog and an ideal GSD. Most now seem to make it more about a dog and expect that breeds, and the genetic traits that go along with that breed, matter less. There is an idea that training can adjust the things you don't like.
This has always been a problem with the general public. People who would get a dog because they liked the looks but didn't consider just what it was that breed was bred to do. Then they would struggle endlessly working against the traits the breeder worked so hard to maintain.

Now it seems, that mentality has worked it's way into the working sports. Many people no longer realize that SchH was about seeing if the GSD had the genetic traits it was intended to have. People are so much more clever, (or they think they are), in how they cheat the system. It first became apparent in the show line dogs, where suddenly SchH 3 dogs didn't seem to recognize what a dumbbell was. Now, it has moved to the working lines. There is mostly one kind of dog now, the high prey, low trigger dog that can be worked by the people who spend more time trying to understand the point system in IPO, than they do learning to understand their dog and his innate instincts. I continue to feel like this is such a huge loss. This new mentality that is all about training vs working with, and bringing out the genetic talents, of their GSD. 

For me, an ideal GSD is one who always has an ear to his handler. A dog who even though not raised with children, has a sense of what they are, and a somewhat maternal instinct becomes obvious in their presence. At the same time, they have an actual protective instinct. Where they will protect their handler in a way that, for the lack of a better way to put it, is also somewhat maternal in nature. No, not through "prey attraction" and not because they are "defensive" or any of the other terms that are now used way too often, without the understanding behind them. It is different in how it looks and how it is triggered. The good GSDs have a sense connected to this instinct that allows them to size up the situation before they act.

I want a dog who is easy to train. One that does not require endless repetitions to learn behaviors that should be easily accessible to the trainer. Where they pick up tracking like the naturals they should be and show a willingness to engage with their handler, seemingly asking, " what do you want to do now?" Not because the handler has food or a ball but because it is their handler and there is that bond.

There should also be a degree of hardness where the dog can stand up to stress or actually get better when they experience conflict. *Real courage, and an ability in protection work that does not have to be trained or controlled with electronics but dogs who see the bad guy and instinctively know what to do. Again, no endless work as a puppy chasing rags on flirt poles, but capable of biting "full and hard" the first time they ever see an agitator but still maintaining the ability to hear and comply with their handler's commands**.* Even while high in fight drive they have that very GSD quality of knowing when to escalate the fight, and the nerves to be capable of stopping when commanded. " - vandal (?)










Genetic Obedience


Yes, it is in the dog. It is not all about training an obedience behavior...much beyond that. Wonder if I will experience the X factor ever again. In the meantime, out to mess with my less in tune boy who makes me have to work a bit harder. The Shelties are fun and freakish smart. If you...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

David Winners said:


> He has passed a boogie man test already, surprisingly forward for his age. I would have liked to get it on video but it was a fellow trainer messing with me and I wasn't aware it was going to happen.
> 
> Other than Nosework, I'm not sure what formal sports will be in our future. The more I think about how he is maturing, and the current state of affairs, the more I want to train PP and not worry about IPG. I don't find IPG to be a suitable foundation for a PPD, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Now that you mentioned it, I read about your experience with your old friend. I wasn't there, but if you're saying that Valor would have bit for real, that is awesome.

Come to think of it, I believe @sapphire said that Gus protected for real. Not sure if he was trained for that ?

I understand some of what you're saying about IGP and PP.

Ya, I wouldn't be in any hurry either. Let him mature - and that could be a little longer than normal.

Sounds like you have the epitome of the real German Shepherd.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Jen84 That describes Saboteur to a T!
I was working her off leash one day and one of the observers said it was like watching a dance. As if she was connected to me. If I so much as dipped a shoulder she altered her direction to match me without ever appearing to notice me. No matter what we did or where we were she was aware of me. She displayed natural and instinctive herding and tracking, I never trained her just showed her what I needed. The eternal mother to all things and born with discernment and patience. She brought real and hard aggression to the game when needed and only when needed. But never got "lost in the fight". I taught none of that, I was not and am not capable. She was born that way.
That is what I want again, because once you have experienced it nothing else measures up


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Jen84 said:


> Thanks. Now that you mentioned it, I read about your experience with your old friend. I wasn't there, but if you're saying that Valor would have bit for real, that is awesome.
> 
> Come to think of it, I believe @sapphire said that Gus protected for real. Not sure if he was trained for that ?
> 
> ...


Gus made decision and acted on his own. I was thankful he has a good out. At the time, I wasn’t happy, my thoughts were what if he’s wrong next time. I was concerned these guys would report a dog bite to police and he’d have a bite record.

This happened in broad daylight. I was home from work that day and lounging in my silly onesie. It had been snowing hard during the night and I saw 2 guys with shovels approaching my driveway. One came to the door and started knocking. I figured they were trying to make some $ by shovelling driveways. I chose to ignore him while Gus sat at the door barking. There is a window on the door so he would have seen Gus. I started to get annoyed but then saw the other guy approach my house. Then I heard them fiddling with door handle. Now I was angry so I stormed to the door, swung it open, before I could say anything, Gus had the one guy by the bicep. One guy took off running while I grabbed Gus and outed him. The other immediately started running away. They left two brand new beautiful shovels for me.

When I was working/training him at the club, he would drop the sleeve after slipped and redirect back onto decoy.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Jen84 said:


> Thanks. Now that you mentioned it, I read about your experience with your old friend. I wasn't there, but if you're saying that Valor would have bit for real, that is awesome.
> 
> Come to think of it, I believe @sapphire said that Gus protected for real. Not sure if he was trained for that ?
> 
> ...


I don't know that he would engage for real, but he was forward and big boy barking. I like what I saw.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> @Jen84 That describes Saboteur to a T!
> I was working her off leash one day and one of the observers said it was like watching a dance. As if she was connected to me. If I so much as dipped a shoulder she altered her direction to match me without ever appearing to notice me. No matter what we did or where we were she was aware of me. She displayed natural and instinctive herding and tracking, I never trained her just showed her what I needed. The eternal mother to all things and born with discernment and patience. She brought real and hard aggression to the game when needed and only when needed. But never got "lost in the fight". I taught none of that, I was not and am not capable. She was born that way.
> That is what I want again, because once you have experienced it nothing else measures up


This is getting harder and harder to find. True balance.

Maybe I'm confusing Bud and Saboteur, but was she also a reverse mask with DDR lineage ?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> Based on your descriptions of Valor and Gus, I’d say he’s probably capable of starting more man oriented work now. One of the bog things the people I train with like to see is a strong forward reaction for man work. Based on what I have seen now and the discussions we’ve had, I probably would have waited till Cion was 6 + months and started his protection training with more of a man orientation. We never did any rag work or stuff like that for grip. His grip didn’t really need it.


I see no advantage to starting now, but there are definite pitfalls. I'm not going to shape him into something he isn't. If he likes man work, he will be good at it.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Saphire said:


> Gus made decision and acted on his own. I was thankful he has a good out. At the time, I wasn’t happy, my thoughts were what if he’s wrong next time. I was concerned these guys would report a dog bite to police and he’d have a bite record.
> 
> This happened in broad daylight. I was home from work that day and lounging in my silly onesie. It had been snowing hard during the night and I saw 2 guys with shovels approaching my driveway. One came to the door and started knocking. I figured they were trying to make some $ by shovelling driveways. I chose to ignore him while Gus sat at the door barking. There is a window on the door so he would have seen Gus. I started to get annoyed but then saw the other guy approach my house. Then I heard them fiddling with door handle. Now I was angry so I stormed to the door, swung it open, before I could say anything, Gus had the one guy by the bicep. One guy took off running while I grabbed Gus and outed him. The other immediately started running away. They left two brand new beautiful shovels for me.
> 
> When I was working/training him at the club, he would drop the sleeve after slipped and redirect back onto decoy.


He sounds super!

I like to praise my dog for these natural behaviors. 

Then I defuse the dog.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I see no advantage to starting now, but there are definite pitfalls. I'm not going to shape him into something he isn't. If he likes man work, he will be good at it.


I’m sure Valor going to be happy doing anything he thinks you want, even if it’s chasing butterflies.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks @Bearshandler.I've got this image of David with a butterfly net and Valor trying to indicate butterflies as they flit here and there.Valor - right here! No wait! Right here! Dang! 😂 🦋


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Jen84 said:


> If @David Winners says, Valor would pass a shutzhund test. I don't need to see the paper.
> 
> Military grade on top.





dogma13 said:


> Thanks @Bearshandler.I've got this image of David with a butterfly net and Valor trying to indicate butterflies as they flit here and there.Valor - right here! No wait! Right here! Dang! 😂 🦋


And lightning bugs at night.😉


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> This is getting harder and harder to find. True balance.
> 
> Maybe I'm confusing Bud and Saboteur, but was she also a reverse mask with DDR lineage ?


Nope. That was Bud. Sabs was a BYB dog. Lol. No known lineage, but just gold. Right from the start. She showed it early and never failed. Not once in her life was that dog ever wrong. So I am stunned that it is so hard to find from a reputable breeder who should be producing exactly that.


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## Jen84 (Oct 19, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Nope. That was Bud. Sabs was a BYB dog. Lol. No known lineage, but just gold. Right from the start. She showed it early and never failed. Not once in her life was that dog ever wrong. So I am stunned that it is so hard to find from a reputable breeder who should be producing exactly that.


She sounds like she was a real beauty. I know you say your current dog is a little unbalanced, but if I'm not mistaken you said she protected for real...kinda hard not to like that too 

As far as discernment goes, here is @cliffson1,

_"Discernment is not a strong part of that breeds makeup. It was a vital part of the makeup of the German Shepherd, initially as herding dog and guard/LE dog. Today, discernment is not so much part of the breeding programs as breeders actively breed AWAY from traits that are necessary to herding/guard/LE type of work. So many pet breeders/BYB are breeding for socialite temperament that does not require discernment because there is no active aggression in the dog."_ - cliffson1










What are the more serious GSD lines?


No dog is perfect, but when you can count on them for consistency in certain attributes, knowledgeable breeders can make the right choices to compliment and enhance the weaknesses of the dogs with their breeding mates.




www.germanshepherds.com





^^^^^ some good info in this thread on individual dogs and pedigrees for active aggression


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

Saphire said:


> Gus made decision and acted on his own. I was thankful he has a good out. At the time, I wasn’t happy, my thoughts were what if he’s wrong next time. I was concerned these guys would report a dog bite to police and he’d have a bite record.
> 
> This happened in broad daylight. I was home from work that day and lounging in my silly onesie. It had been snowing hard during the night and I saw 2 guys with shovels approaching my driveway. One came to the door and started knocking. I figured they were trying to make some $ by shovelling driveways. I chose to ignore him while Gus sat at the door barking. There is a window on the door so he would have seen Gus. I started to get annoyed but then saw the other guy approach my house. Then I heard them fiddling with door handle. Now I was angry so I stormed to the door, swung it open, before I could say anything, Gus had the one guy by the bicep. One guy took off running while I grabbed Gus and outed him. The other immediately started running away. They left two brand new beautiful shovels for me.
> 
> When I was working/training him at the club, he would drop the sleeve after slipped and redirect back onto decoy.


What a good boy!!! I’m surprised they took the chance even with seeing and hearing a GSD barking at the door. Probably the last house they would try with a GSD. I am glad you and Gus weren’t harmed


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jen84 said:


> She sounds like she was a real beauty. I know you say your current dog is a little unbalanced, but if I'm not mistaken you said she protected for real...kinda hard not to like that too
> 
> As far as discernment goes, here is @cliffson1,
> 
> ...


Shadow has on a few occasions proven that there is a real dog in there somewhere. I always figured that given the chance she'd cut and run. Loose in my yard with some weirdo trying to coax me to the gate, she stood her ground and actually moved toward him when he started to open the gate. Sleeping on my bed she launched herself at the stranger who opened my bedroom door, and bit him, before returning to me and snuggling back to sleep beside me. She also is a born scent dog. And probably one of the most environmentally sound dogs I have ever seen. I have to move her away from the chainsaw. Lol. Rifles, shotguns, trains, jets, snowmobiles, storms. Nothing bothers her. She's dangerous though, she is snake fast and never bluffs.
Bud was a great combo of real aggression with a high threshold, he liked the fight but he wouldn't start it. Naturally aloof but not much discernment. He didn't care if you were an axe murderer or a nun, if you touched me you were on his radar. Very handler focused, but a long ways from biddable. I called him my 2x4 dog. And that born tracking ability.


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow has on a few occasions proven that there is a real dog in there somewhere. I always figured that given the chance she'd cut and run. Loose in my yard with some weirdo trying to coax me to the gate, she stood her ground and actually moved toward him when he started to open the gate. Sleeping on my bed she launched herself at the stranger who opened my bedroom door, and bit him, before returning to me and snuggling back to sleep beside me. She also is a born scent dog. And probably one of the most environmentally sound dogs I have ever seen. I have to move her away from the chainsaw. Lol. Rifles, shotguns, trains, jets, snowmobiles, storms. Nothing bothers her. She's dangerous though, she is snake fast and never bluffs.
> Bud was a great combo of real aggression with a high threshold, he liked the fight but he wouldn't start it. Naturally aloof but not much discernment. He didn't care if you were an axe murderer or a nun, if you touched me you were on his radar. Very handler focused, but a long ways from biddable. I called him my 2x4 dog. And that born tracking ability.


stranger in your room?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

SuperAndre said:


> stranger in your room?


I was being nice and stopping a drunk from driving. Offered my couch.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow has on a few occasions proven that there is a real dog in there somewhere. I always figured that given the chance she'd cut and run. Loose in my yard with some weirdo trying to coax me to the gate, she stood her ground and actually moved toward him when he started to open the gate. Sleeping on my bed she launched herself at the stranger who opened my bedroom door, and bit him, before returning to me and snuggling back to sleep beside me. She also is a born scent dog. And probably one of the most environmentally sound dogs I have ever seen. I have to move her away from the chainsaw. Lol. Rifles, shotguns, trains, jets, snowmobiles, storms. Nothing bothers her. She's dangerous though, she is snake fast and never bluffs.
> Bud was a great combo of real aggression with a high threshold, he liked the fight but he wouldn't start it. Naturally aloof but not much discernment. He didn't care if you were an axe murderer or a nun, if you touched me you were on his radar. Very handler focused, but a long ways from biddable. I called him my 2x4 dog. And that born tracking ability.


Still amazed at these dogs. Kids wondering in my bedroom because they have to drink from my water instead of theirs, no problem and just kisses before settling back to sleep. 
But I have no doubt in my mind my boy would do the same as Shadow if some stranger came in. 
I’m excited to hear about your upcoming puppy adventures Sabis mom😊


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Carmen loves the old herding lines because they have the sort of discernment we're talking about here. I will never forget a story I read about Schafermeister Manfred Heyne. Unfortunately, it's no longer up on the web, but if I remember it correctly, someone invited him to their schutzhund club. Now, his dog had never done protection work before, and the club members were laughing at this elderly man, dressed in the traditional long coat and wide brimmed hat of a shepherd.

The decoy came out, waving his stick in a threatening manner, and Heyne sent his dog. The dog hit the sleeve with such force that he knocked the decoy flat on his a**! 

Edit: I found the story on the Leerburg website. I originally read it on the Nickelsberg herding website. Leerburg | Discussion with Manfred Heyne



> This is an example of how tough Manfred is on his own breeding standards. Let me explain. Manfred does not train his dogs to bite, etc. for the courage tests. He takes them to club and has them do it. The time he showed me what he did, he brought Nikko to club for the first time (I wrote this story in my 1st article on my web site). He had no lead on the dog and only held him by the collar. He told the helper to run out for the courage test. The helper did and Manfred gave Nikko the "Packen" command and let him go. Manfred didn't know what the dog would do since it had never been worked in schutzhund before. Most of the club members were chuckling in the background "there goes the shepherd's dog lets get ready for a laugh". Nikko not only took the sleeve hard and full, he knocked the helper flat but never let go of the sleeve. Suddenly there was silence in the background and then applause. That is what Manfred expects his dogs to do WITHOUT training.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Sunsilver that is the funny/sad part. Everyone dismisses those herding traits when it is the very core of this great breed. All of the behaviors that we all fell in love with stem from those herding instincts.
I should not need to spend hours training to achieve proper bites, to get a dog to stay with me, to have a dog that watches a threat or finds my belongings. Those behaviors should be a part of the dog. Then those hours can be spent building a bond that will create an unstoppable dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> @Sunsilver that is the funny/sad part. Everyone dismisses those herding traits when it is the very core of this great breed. All of the behaviors that we all fell in love with stem from those herding instincts.
> I should not need to spend hours training to achieve proper bites, to get a dog to stay with me, to have a dog that watches a threat or finds my belongings. Those behaviors should be a part of the dog. Then those hours can be spent building a bond that will create an unstoppable dog.


This


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## SuperAndre (Jun 28, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Carmen loves the old herding lines because they have the sort of discernment we're talking about here. I will never forget a story I read about Schafermeister Manfred Heyne. Unfortunately, it's no longer up on the web, but if I remember it correctly, someone invited him to their schutzhund club. Now, his dog had never done protection work before, and the club members were laughing at this elderly man, dressed in the traditional long coat and wide brimmed hat of a shepherd.
> 
> The decoy came out, waving his stick in a threatening manner, and Heyne sent his dog. The dog hit the sleeve with such force that he knocked the decoy flat on his a**!
> 
> Edit: I found the story on the Leerburg website. I originally read it on the Nickelsberg herding website. Leerburg | Discussion with Manfred Heyne


Is that one of Carmens dogs you are speaking of or a dog similar?


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

No, the dog was bred by Heyne. His name was Nikko.
It might possibly have been this dog, as Stammherde Ramholz was the name of Manfred's kennel: Nick von der Stammherde Ramholz


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I find German shepherds who have natural herding instincts that pass heavily through have higher degree attentiveness and also have strong natural protective instincts. To me they go hand in hand even if different. It’s intresting to see how strongly they want the pack to stay together a strong trait that is part of the herding instinct. I do know they can sense who has intentions of leaving the pack well before they do, as their instincts above average. 

I have not owned a German Shepherd that would not protect. One shepherd though was trained and the two shepherds I have now just complete protective instinct one more intense then the other but both not trained. It’s the quiet ones you have to watch out and both my males were always quiet. I walk Max my male at night down a dark path in the woods to get to the neighborhood. It’s complete darkness . I’m not crazy either. I would never do that if I did not have complete trust in Max and not concerned- I had many dogs I would not do that with. When you have that kind of dog that would not back away combined with that kind of bond there is nothing they would not want to do for you is my experience nor is that kind of bond ever replaceable.


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