# Teaching to Accept Strangers



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

I joined this forum a few weeks ago, just been reading up as much as I can. I have a question that I don't seem to find much info on. Can our GSD be "taught" to allow a stranger to pet them? This is actually one of the parts of the Canine Good Citizen test. Not that this test is my goal, but it illustrates our problem. Let me give some background....

We adopted a 9 mo old GSD from the local German Shepherd rescue. We had no recent experience with training a GSD. Recognizing our lack of experience, we solicited the help of a trainer. After a few sessions/interviews with different trainers, we settled on one who was billed as "100% positive reinforcement". We worked with her for 2 1/2 months, implementing what she called Counter Conditioning, for the reactiveness. We didn't accomplish much, after this we strongly considered sending her back to the rescue. We just didn't know what to do!

Consulting with some GSD specific trainers, we came to the conclusion that "positive only reinforcement", while it may work for some breeds, probably isn't the best approach for a GSD. We then found someone local who has a Rehabilitation program. He is a colleague of Sean O'Shea, based on the methodology in his book, The Good Dog Way.

We sent her away for 3 weeks. The difference now with her is amazing. She is a changed dog, although she isn't given 100% freedom yet. Its been 3 months since, and she is mostly forced to down/place in the house, which keeps her calm. We still have her in an E collar. She also does great with heel and recall. In most ways, she is a great pet and now a pleasure to have, except one thing.

She is still a nervous dog. She is not aggressive, in fact I would say she is overly submissive. We entertain a lot and travel in our RV. We want her to be a better "people" dog. When anyone else, even friends she knows, gets near her, she gets WAY too excited, sometimes even losing her bladder. Its like her personal space is 2 ft., as soon as someone gets closer, she just gets wound up; licking, mouthing, jumping, etc.

Our trainer (and everything I have read) says this behavior really can't be changed, unless she outgrows it. His solution is to put her in her crate or a place/down when we have visitors. We can do this, and she will be fine, BUT feel like that is doing nothing to "teach" her to be more accomodating. She is such a pretty dog, everyone wants to pet her! We're fine telling strangers no, but would like friends/family to be able to interact with her.

Since this is part of the CGC program, we thought there might be some techniques to train or overcome this?

Thanks,
Dale


----------



## Mary Beth (Apr 17, 2010)

If she is the only dog, perhaps, adopting a stable, friendly, older dog will calm her and give her confidence. She can then observe the other dog interacting with people and not only will that take all the attention off of her, but also she can see that it is all right to do so.


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I expect it will take a lot of patience and waiting for more maturity. 9 to 12 months can be a trying age, with many changes. Putting her in her crate is nothing to feel bad about. She feels safe and knows no one is going to mess with her. She doesn't have to do anything or make any decisions other than to watch. Strangers should always be told to completely ignore the dog and talk to you when you are out on a walk. Next to your leg is her safe place, which will be like her crate. No one is going to bother her. She doesn't have to decide what to do, just relax and watch. As she gets older and learns that you have some control over all these strangers, she may decide to come up and meet people calmly on her own. 

Friends and family have to ignore her, too. As she sees them hanging around with you, she will most likely get up on her own and meet and greet them. As she gets older and she recognizes them and knows that they aren't going to ask much of her, she'll be calmer.


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

Thanks, that my wife's solution too. Maybe we foster a senior dog for a bit, can't see us traveling around in RV with two!


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

Thank You, I hope I didn't mischaracterize this, she WILL lay quietly at my side, its only when I allow her to get up and meet someone, or visa versa. even after a few hours of place, totally relaxed, she will get very excited if allowed to come in contact with guests. You are suggesting basically what our trainer said, I have no reason to doubt him. Its only when I cam across this Canine Good Citizen testing that led me to believe this be could be taught.


----------



## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I’m confused. Is your dog afraid of people or over excited ?

What did she used to be reactive too?


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

Sorry to be confusing, she gets overly excited, it’s not aggression seems more submissive to me? When we got her, 9 months ago now, she was reactive to other dogs, hence the counter conditioning. We now take her on pack walks every week, she is very well behaved.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Can you video what she does and post it or a link? It sounds like nerves to me but without seeing it who knows.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sanjosedale said:


> Sorry to be confusing, she gets overly excited, it’s not aggression seems more submissive to me? When we got her, 9 months ago now, she was reactive to other dogs, hence the counter conditioning. We now take her on pack walks every week, she is very well behaved.


Its not that she doesn't accept people, she just doesn't know how to behave with them. Teach her to sit, someone can calmly approach and pet her then. If she gets up out of the sit, the person turns away, you sit her and try again. Everything calm, slow, and deliberate.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You are seeing the result of that type of training. Yes, you will see changes, but allowing someone else to do the work based on a type of training that doesn’t address the fundamental behavior doesn’t translate to what you need. You see the results. They used an e collar to teach obedience. It worked because they gave her no options except to comply. It didn’t fix her nervous behavior or reluctance around strangers because it can’t. Only you can do that. 

I suggest you don’t use an e collar to get her used to other people. Start with one or two family members or close friends and let her approach them if she wants to. Have them ignore her completely in your home. Give her an escape route, like an open crate or access to another room. Give them treats or toys that she can see and smell, but not try to give them to her. If she approaches, let her come up and take the food or toys and still not give her any attention. If she takes from them, say good girl, then let her leave. If she has full freedom to decide, and she chooses to approach people, it’s her idea, her decision, her solution. Strangers don’t get to approach and touch her, they haven’t earned that right in her eyes. If you allow strangers to force themselves on her from her perspective, it could push her into biting.


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> Its not that she doesn't accept people, she just doesn't know how to behave with them. Teach her to sit, someone can calmly approach and pet her then. If she gets up out of the sit, the person turns away, you sit her and try again. Everything calm, slow, and deliberate.


This is exactly right.


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> You are seeing the result of that type of training. Yes, you will see changes, but allowing someone else to do the work based on a type of training that doesn’t address the fundamental behavior doesn’t translate to what you need. You see the results. They used an e collar to teach obedience. It worked because they gave her no options except to comply. It didn’t fix her nervous behavior or reluctance around strangers because it can’t. Only you can do that.
> 
> I suggest you don’t use an e collar to get her used to other people. Start with one or two family members or close friends and let her approach them if she wants to. Have them ignore her completely in your home. Give her an escape route, like an open crate or access to another room. Give them treats or toys that she can see and smell, but not try to give them to her. If she approaches, let her come up and take the food or toys and still not give her any attention. If she takes from them, say good girl, then let her leave. If she has full freedom to decide, and she chooses to approach people, it’s her idea, her decision, her solution. Strangers don’t get to approach and touch her, they haven’t earned that right in her eyes. If you allow strangers to force themselves on her from her perspective, it could push her into biting.



Oh she definitely wishes to greet people, wether home or out and about, she just doesn’t know how to behave. The first thing she does is to put her mouth on whoever wants to pet her. She has never bitten, just playful, but definitely doesn’t like anyone (except us) reaching for her head.

Thank you all so much for taking the time with your advice. She is such a great dog, just wish she had a bit more confidence.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Sanjosedale said:


> Oh she definitely wishes to greet people, wether home or out and about, she just doesn’t know how to behave. The first thing she does is to put her mouth on whoever wants to pet her. She has never bitten, just playful, but definitely doesn’t like anyone (except us) reaching for her head.
> 
> Thank you all so much for taking the time with your advice. She is such a great dog, just wish she had a bit more confidence.


Many dogs don't like people petting their heads. It is not exactly normal dog behavior, dogs don't pet each other on the head.  Maybe you would have more success by not letting people pet her head but maybe stroke her back or sides. Your dog is mouthing people that are making her feel uncomfortable. I would heed what she is trying to tell you. One day when somebody tries to pet her head again, your dog just might decide not this time.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sanjosedale said:


> Oh she definitely wishes to greet people, wether home or out and about, she just doesn’t know how to behave. The first thing she does is to put her mouth on whoever wants to pet her. She has never bitten, just playful, but definitely doesn’t like anyone (except us) reaching for her head.
> 
> Thank you all so much for taking the time with your advice. She is such a great dog, just wish she had a bit more confidence.


How do you decide she wants to meet people? What does she do that you are sure is telling you that? I had a sweet rescue that ended up biting people who scared him. He escalated very sharply from pulling away to growling to biting. He liked a lot of people but when someone made him nervous, they really made him nervous. When he wasn’t afraid of someone he was friendly and brought them toys. He sounds like like your dog. His early warning was mouthing. It looked harmless but he was trying to tell us he was not happy.


----------



## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Sanjosedale said:


> This is exactly right.





Steve Strom said:


> Its not that she doesn't accept people, she just doesn't know how to behave with them. Teach her to sit, someone can calmly approach and pet her then. If she gets up out of the sit, the person turns away, you sit her and try again. Everything calm, slow, and deliberate.


This is great advice thanks. I'm going to give it a try.


----------



## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

You can build her confidence! It just takes time. Kona has very low confidence and it’s absolutely amazing to see how confident she has become in this last year. I never ever force her to meet anyone unless she wants too. Too many trainers think forcing the dog to meet strangers will get them to be more confident with strangers, but that is so far from the truth!


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Sanjosedale said:


> This is exactly right.


The next thing to keep in mind is once she learns to behave, does she actually like the contact? Or is she uncomfortable with it? If she's uncomfortable, the biting/mouthing doesn't disappear, then I'd go the strangers don't pet my dog route. Calming it all down will make it obvious for you, which it is.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Mei said:


> This is great advice thanks. I'm going to give it a try.


Your puppy is still pretty young. The key to me is you don't try to force things. If the puppy likes people, enjoys the contact, I let everyone pet my puppies that are like that. If they aren't comfortable with it, I just keep them out and around everything, let them see the world, and I watch how they deal with things. The op's dog is older and I think some ob and settling down the excitement and grey areas will clear up what his dog is going to like, or like he posted accept.


----------



## Mei (Mar 30, 2018)

Steve Strom said:


> Mei said:
> 
> 
> > This is great advice thanks. I'm going to give it a try.
> ...


Thanks for the input and putting it into perspective mine is still very young.


----------



## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

For now, I would take a different approach. Get her out and about but without a unknown person trying to pet her, touch her. She's not ready for that, don't force it. But show her that there are people everywhere, doing various things (people are walking in parking lots, cutting grass, walking on trails, sitting at picnic tables, etc.) but that these people really don't matter to her, they are no big deal. Work on your bond with her, she must trust you first. From there allow a stranger, that takes direction from you pet her.

Just my thoughts...


----------



## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Sanjosedale said:


> Oh she definitely wishes to greet people, wether home or out and about, she just doesn’t know how to behave. The first thing she does is to put her mouth on whoever wants to pet her. She has never bitten, just playful, but definitely doesn’t like anyone (except us) reaching for her head.
> 
> Thank you all so much for taking the time with your advice. She is such a great dog, just wish she had a bit more confidence.


My big-boy wants to hold our arms when we come home after being away for awhile. I tell him to "get a toy". He usually ends up grabbing a shoe since we keep some by the door. Just having something for his mouth helps. He doesn't do that to strangers out on walks though. I had a little mixed breed that always grabbed her toy bone when we came back home from work or shopping. Having that toy in her mouth helped her not jump on us.
Perhaps your pup needs something for the mouth. Maybe you could carry a small towel or something.


----------



## andywhite (Dec 18, 2017)

Well, GSD are bred to not trust strangers and not to be friends with them. Friendly GSD would be breeding fail. GSD should be fully focused on handler and other people should be just annoying noise around him.a

Maybe Golden retriever would suit you better.


----------



## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

andywhite said:


> Well, GSD are bred to not trust strangers and not to be friends with them. Friendly GSD would be breeding fail. GSD should be fully focused on handler and other people should be just annoying noise around him.a
> 
> Maybe Golden retriever would suit you better.


Why can’t a GSD be friendly with a friendly stranger?

I have met many police dogs who are very friendly with friendly strangers. So those are all breeding fails ?


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

Wow, when I first posted this early in the week, I though I was getting no response, now its almost overwhelming...

I "believe" she wishes to meet people, she wants to run up to them, jump up in them, lick, mouthy, etc. If I allow, she is all over them. It looks to me (and I am certainly a novice owner) that she is just excited. Her tail is wagging, ears back somewhat, nothing like aggression like if she was wary of another dog. She was extremely mouthy with us, for a long time, thankfully that has mostly gone away. 

For example, this morning my daughter came by with her new boyfriend, Xena was outside. He just decided to go out and meet her, she jumped up and as soon as he touched her to push down, she lost control of her bladder. When we took her to the vet, it was very difficult for him to examine her, since she is so excited/nervous/amped up....

She is 20 months old, is that really still a puppy? 

I do realize that this breed isn't a labrador, they are just not built that way, but I have met plenty of GSDs who will calmly sit when approached by a stranger, with the owner by their side.

I think my best strategy is to keep socializing her (we try to take her everywhere) we do 2 pack was each week, keep working on obedience, perhaps do some more work with a trainer, either private or group.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/submissive-urination#1

https://shepherdcanine.com/german-shepherd/training/stop-german-shepherd-peeing-afraid/


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

LuvShepherds said:


> https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/submissive-urination#1
> 
> https://shepherdcanine.com/german-shepherd/training/stop-german-shepherd-peeing-afraid/



Thanks for the links. Absolutely, she is peeing out of submission. This describes her perfectly. She also occasionally pees when my wife comes home, never with me. The wife is very lenient with her, I do all the training and am the disciplinarian.


----------



## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Try the training and handling suggestions. You can fix it.


----------



## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Definitely sounds like submissive peeing. Kona’s litter mate does this every time and sounds exactly as you describe. Hers never went away either, but kona never had this issue.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I am not a professional trainer (currently), but IMHO a combination of Steve Strohm's and Mary Beth's advice would work well in this scenario. Mary Beth suggested getting another dog, but if that's not workable, anytime your puppy can spend time with other people-friendly dogs who enjoy petting will help. As Steve said, when allowing contact, make her sit, and be sure initially to make sure greeters know to walk away if she breaks the sit or acts too excitedly. She'll come around! Just a matter of training...again, IMHO...


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

Xena thanks you!


----------



## Sanjosedale (Apr 1, 2018)

Sorry, I can’t figure out why my pictures post rotated....


----------

