# So... what's next?



## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

HI y'all,
I've been wanting to do something more with Gandalf lately competitive wise. We just finished a fun scent class and he enjoyed it, but was honestly too easy as most of it was indoors. As soon as we went to the outdoor dog section (lots of poop and pee out there) to track he lost focus and started marking. Couldn't blame the guy, he was off leash and there was dog pee everywhere. Indoors our trainer said he had very great focus and determination, he plowed through obstacles and succeeded in high and low searches. I'm just not sure if this is right for us. Not sure if the area was to blame... I feel after some work I could train him to not mark off leash while tracking but it's not something I've really been interested in. I looked into agility near us, but the only serious club I know of practices only at times I have work. I know a good IPO group, but I don't want to do bitework with Gandalf. Gandalf has shown great interest in agility, obedience, tricks, and nosework and I want to earn some titles with him. He already earned his CGC easy no problem. The only trouble I'm having is that he is fearless, smart, and very obedient so I'm not sure what we should specialize in, he loves doing everything! Not sure if he would be show quality since he's a long coat white shepherd lol. Anyone have some suggestions for us? 
Thanks!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I seriously enjoy both tracking and detection work. Loved doing searches. All of my shepherds have enjoyed anything that used their noses. 
The only one I have seen any natural herding ability, like untaught, in was Sabs. She liked to round up everything. It was fun just for kicks to have her bring in the chickens or the kids. 
If it was me I would look for anything to do with his nose.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Sabis mom said:


> I seriously enjoy both tracking and detection work. Loved doing searches. All of my shepherds have enjoyed anything that used their noses.
> The only one I have seen any natural herding ability, like untaught, in was Sabs. She liked to round up everything. It was fun just for kicks to have her bring in the chickens or the kids.
> If it was me I would look for anything to do with his nose.


Is it true if they mark mid search they will be disqualified ? I've never tried herding with Gandalf, but he does herd the cat sometimes... she's old and wanders out the door if someone leaves it open and he leads her back inside lol :laugh2: How do official tracking competitions work?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

You can do BH and tracking in IPO without doing bitework. I am doing both beginning scentwork and BH with mine. Although he wants to play with the boxes. Sitting next to a scent is very boring for him.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

AKC Tracking will not disqualify a dog only for marking on the track. I was worried mine might but I have discouraged it and the more "into" the track he is the less I think he will do it because in his head he is working and he is not scouting for something to mark. He has done it rarely in training but not in either test he has done.

We also really love dock diving and rally. First dock practice of the season for us this coming weekend! Not the club's first but we couldn't go last time


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Marking is a training issue. They lift their leg, you correct them. It's that simple. No, you don't pee while we are training and you really better not when we are trailing. 

You don't let them do it in your house. This is no different.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Marking is a training issue. They lift their leg, you correct them. It's that simple. No, you don't pee while we are training and you really better not when we are trailing.
> 
> You don't let them do it in your house. This is no different.


Yep thought I made that clear in my post. It's something I haven't bothered working on since it never bothered me. I was simply asking if it was allowed in a trial.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> AKC Tracking will not disqualify a dog only for marking on the track. I was worried mine might but I have discouraged it and the more "into" the track he is the less I think he will do it because in his head he is working and he is not scouting for something to mark. He has done it rarely in training but not in either test he has done.
> 
> We also really love dock diving and rally. First dock practice of the season for us this coming weekend! Not the club's first but we couldn't go last time


Dock diving looks really fun!!! Is it dangerous though? I've watched the trials on TV and I'm always worried the dogs are going to lose their footing running and jumping off the deck.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

If he loves obedience and you have a good IPO club, I would definitely check it out. Honestly, with his bright eyes and gorgeous coat, he will look stunning on that field. 

AKC also has obedience trials, UD and UDX. 

I'm a little surprised that the outside area for the NW class was off leash. For the outside searches (exterior and vehicles)The NW1 trial as well as the number of mock trials that we have entered and the NW2 & 3 trials that I volunteered for were on leash only. Even on leash, my boy has tried to mark. For the most part he now understands it's not allowed. Instructors should be able to help Gandolph with this.

Along with the other suggestions, Rally may be worth looking into also and lure coursing if that's available.

It took us a while to find what we both were suited for and liked the most. I was hoping for agilities but the only reason he kind of liked it was because he got to run through a tunnel. Lol. 

Wish you both lots of fun while on this quest.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Yep thought I made that clear in my post. It's something I haven't bothered working on since it never bothered me. I was simply asking if it was allowed in a trial. Thanks though for your stellar advice, you know I always appreciate it!


Apparently it was not clear that the issue was just your lack of interest in stopping the marking. I thought you actually wanted input on how to stop it rather than could you just get away with it.

Will you get disqualified? It depends on the event. 
Will you lose a ton of points? Yes. 
Will all the other competitors hate you for not caring that your dog just peed on the field and it will most likely affect their performance that they have worked so hard for? Absolutely.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Heartandsoul said:


> If he loves obedience and you have a good IPO club, I would definitely check it out. Honestly, with his bright eyes and gorgeous coat, he will look stunning on that field.
> 
> AKC also has obedience trials, UD and UDX.
> 
> ...


Cool will have to look into those thanks! Yeah it was a silly just for fun introduction class with some trainers who don't do any formal NW, they primarily run a doggy day care. It didn't make much sense to me either, that the entire 6 week course we practiced indoors and then the exam was supposed to be outdoors in an area where dogs play and live all day. Obviously not something Gandalf and I have worked at all on... normally he is off leash hiking by my side and I don't mind him marking in the woods one bit. He listens fine on leash and doesn't mark where he isn't supposed to. I think all the smells and being the first time trying to track outside he was just a little overwhelmed! Overall I wasn't too interested in NW... it was a little boring for me not being able to be more involved with him like teaching tricks, etc. But if he enjoys it I would be willing to keep working with him on it. It certainly tired him out, which I had never seen before! What exactly is Rally? Thanks for your help :smile2:


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I took an intro course to Rallo O with his puppy obedience instructor way back when.. I believe it is formally called Rally O. Here's the first vid I found. Easier to watch than for me to explain.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Nosework is a lot more involved than people realize. There is teaching a trained final response (if you choose to do this, some don’t), teaching patterned searches, learning to read your dog, learning to discern if your dog is in odor, recognizing the signs your dog is critering, learning what level of pressure your dog needs to work best. Then there’s leash handling, teaching yourself to not block odor, recognizing what certain behaviors mean in regards to where the odor might be, learning how to get your dog to detail, how to get your dog to work converging odors... the beginning classes can be a little boring, I suppose, but really it’s fascinating once you get further into it. I’m currently teaching my 4th dog nosework. You get from it what you put into it. The only downfall is it can be hard to get into trials.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Oh, and yes, you will get DQ’d if your dog pees in a search area during a trial.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Oh, and yes, you will get DQ’d if your dog pees in a search area during a trial.


Is the dog supposed to be off or on leash?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Training control/obedience re: peeing is kind of a universal thing that needs to be done with dog sports.

Dogs eliminating on training fields are HEAVILY frowned on. There's generally a separate, labeled place to relieve dogs. If someone's dog repeatedly marks on the formal field (excluding baby puppy accidents), it's pretty much a guarantee that a veteran member will give you a stern talking to. 

It is painful to watch a dog slam to a halt to sniff recent pee, in the middle of any sort of run. It's even worse when one dog marks the corner of an agility obstacle, and then a bunch of other dogs get distracted or their heads snap around at the exact same spot. We keep deodorizing cleansers on hand, but you can absolutely feel the irritation from the other handlers if a dog pees on an obstacle, or marks the field's entry gate where all dogs pass through.

It's an important thing to train, because it's an automatic DQ in many sports ("Fouling the ring"). Since you have lots of fun choices on the horizon for Gandalf, I'd prioritize this.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Is the dog supposed to be off or on leash?


It depends on the search area. For trials, containers, vehicles and exteriors are normally run on leash. Sometimes you have the option to go off leash for an interior search. In class, you normally practice both ways for interiors. It really depends on what the CO decides to permit at a trial, and if your dog works well off leash.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WIBackpacker said:


> Training control/obedience re: peeing is kind of a universal thing that needs to be done with dog sports.
> 
> Dogs eliminating on training fields are HEAVILY frowned on. There's generally a separate, labeled place to relieve dogs. If someone's dog repeatedly marks on the formal field (excluding baby puppy accidents), it's pretty much a guarantee that a veteran member will give you a stern talking to.
> 
> ...


Jeez people it was a DOG DAY CARE facility with dog pee and poop everywhere and he was off leash and i didn't even interfere. I get it, if you're in trial don't do it. Can a mod just delete this thread? I wanted some suggestions on fun sports/activities not how to train my dog not to mark lol. He has no issues in a regular clean field on a long line or inside. Not really something I feel we need to work on.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> It depends on the search area. For trials, containers, vehicles and exteriors are normally run on leash. Sometimes you have the option to go off leash for an interior search. In class, you normally practice both ways for interiors. It really depends on what the CO decides to permit at a trial, and if your dog works well off leash.


Then that's not a problem. Do they often hold trials in doggy day care facilities with feces everywhere? Tracking seemed really boring anyways.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

:shrug: 

Gandalf is obviously doing really well, and you're trying more sports with him, which is excellent.

The comments are meant to help give some thought into universal training that will apply whether you move into Nosework, Agility, Tracking, other things. If you join a new sport (or two!), it can be heaps easier if you already have the "manners" stuff out of the way so you can get right down to the good stuff. 

Hope you find something you really enjoy for the summer, he sounds like fun boy.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I have more to say about it but in AKC Tracking there is 1 field, 1 track for 1 dog and then it is done and used no more. If your dog marks while tracking it will not no qualify you or screw up anyone else's work that day.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> Nosework is a lot more involved than people realize. There is teaching a trained final response (if you choose to do this, some don’t), teaching patterned searches, learning to read your dog, learning to discern if your dog is in odor, recognizing the signs your dog is critering, learning what level of pressure your dog needs to work best. Then there’s leash handling, teaching yourself to not block odor, recognizing what certain behaviors mean in regards to where the odor might be, learning how to get your dog to detail, how to get your dog to work converging odors... the beginning classes can be a little boring, I suppose, but really it’s fascinating once you get further into it. I’m currently teaching my 4th dog nosework. You get from it what you put into it. The only downfall is it can be hard to get into trials.


I was just coming here to post something like that. I just spent a week intensively immersed in Nosework and one of the biggest takeaways is that there is an unquantifiable amount that I do not know. Converging, layering, trapped odor, pooling odor, how the wind affects odor, how the temperature and humidity affect odor. There is a surprising amount of chemistry/physics (just the concepts) that comes into play. And a lot of that knowledge comes out of experience and paying attention to your dog and your environment. As GypsyGhost said, you get out of it what you put in.

As for the marking - yes, that's a training issue, and I think it's an important one. We hope in class that someone pees in the search area, because we have to practice working through that with our dogs. I just saw a presentation on observing your dog and being able to tell crittering from "I'm scoping out dog marking" from being in odor. We do want to practice that. I think on a trial date, most people would be ready to lose their minds if they heard another competitor didn't care if their dog marked in the search area (and yes you are DQed and will not title that day if your dog pees). It's just basic good manners to work on that in training so your dog isn't creating a distraction for other dogs trialing after you in the run order.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> Marking is a training issue. They lift their leg, you correct them. It's that simple. No, you don't pee while we are training and you really better not when we are trailing.
> 
> You don't let them do it in your house. This is no different.


My dog is super soft, and not high drive. So I have chosen to be a little more relaxed about the marking because I didn't want to influence his love and enthusiasm for tracking. 

If it meant no title I'd approach it differently, but for me in AKC is doesn't. I don't want him to mark on the track, I think it's unprofessional, but my approach has been to discourage it short of an actual correction because of who my dog is. I very rarely give him actual corrections, especially training for any sport. I don't think I've ever given this dog a legitimate correction in training for obedience. 

I make sure he has peed before he begins to track, if I see him slacking off and "scouting", considering marking, he gets a mild verbal discouragement from that and encouragement to get back to work. So far it has felt like a pretty natural progression for us as I said earlier where the better he gets at tracking, the more he loves it and he goes to "work" the less he has ever thought about marking and it hasn't happened in a long time.

But for me the bottom line is, worst case scenario our TDX track goes through the woods and he decides to mark a tree, I'll just tell him to get back to work and he will and if he tracks correctly we will still pass so it isn't worth losing sleep over for me. I've been tracking him in the woods and he has not marked anything which is telling. And usually when he is done with his track he does want to take a pee, which is fine by me and seems right-- he is done working, he relaxes and pees. 

He has competed a lot off leash in rally and I was mildly concerned to go thru the ring with all those rally signs...a million vertical objects and an intact dog that likes to mark, but his engagement is pretty good and it's not an issue because again, he is working, he is watching me, he is actively working with me which is the opposite of looking for stuff to pee on, so I feel like it was just a natural thing.

There was one time I was pretty grateful for because it was a run-thru and there was some really good smell, and he actually left me and broke away from heel to go try and sniff it, but because it was a run thru I trained through it and nothing came of it. At trial his engagement and work was very good in that ring and he had a one point off from perfect score.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

You could always try conformation too. I think your breeder is pretty active in that, and he might do well in UKC? You could probably also show him in AWSA.

Conformation looks boring to me...and obedience is somewhat the most boring thing we do, but it's something I can practice indoors when the weather is bad so it kind of stays in the mix. I don't find tracking boring AT ALL, but I can see how other people might. Somewhat being attached to a dog who absolutely loves it influences my enthusiasm for it. He lives for it. 

Dock diving, waiting in line for your jump is a drag but the rest is super fun. and, NO GATORS ha ha


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> You could always try conformation too. I think your breeder is pretty active in that, and he might do well in UKC? You could probably also show him in AWSA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought I’d think tracking was boring and that I was only going to see how my dog liked it, but so far I am enjoying it a lot. On the other hand, I thought herding would be for me and it isn’t, and I thought I’d enjoy doing conformation and I prefer watching. (Part of it is not having the time to dedicate to immersing myself in it like I can with Nosework, but it’s lower on my list.)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> My dog is super soft, and not high drive. So I have chosen to be a little more relaxed about the marking because I didn't want to influence his love and enthusiasm for tracking.
> 
> If it meant no title I'd approach it differently, but for me in AKC is doesn't. I don't want him to mark on the track, I think it's unprofessional, but my approach has been to discourage it short of an actual correction because of who my dog is. I very rarely give him actual corrections, especially training for any sport. I don't think I've ever given this dog a legitimate correction in training for obedience.
> 
> ...


Gandalf is the same way, very soft and responds easily to verbal corrections. We have played around a bit in the agility ring and he is 110% focus, never even sniffed once to mark. I think in this case it was his first time "tracking" outside in a place he has previously played with other dogs before and marked and I encouraged it and the place was covered in dog urine and poop. Not exactly a good first experience I don't think to tracking outside. Inside he is ON IT and completely focused, nothing breaks that. I didn't even try to correct him in the doggy day care play area because I didn't see it as his fault. It's a dog bathroom area, better not to confuse him I think. I think this should be fun for the dog too... after all it is for his enjoyment, I like how the AKC tracking sounds! Dock diving sounds fun too, he loves the water and no one will see him peeing HA!


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

My dog pooped out a Darth Vader once during advanced off lead training in an indoor facility. At first everyone was horrified (because dogs that make it to this stage just don't do that), then they realized this was a special case scenario. Even the best of them can't prairie dog a Darth Vader! There was some brief discussion over the identity of the action figure, as I had mentioned we were also missing Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes has night vision glasses though and his helmet is shaped differently. 

Don't sweat it, I am sure you are well aware that whatever you choose to do you will have to work on it, I had to do it when I had a young SD canditdate. He washed out (not because of Darth, because of other reasons) It was kind of tough to do. He was housebroken, but he was under the learned impression that outside was fine, regardless. Only when we passed for SDIT did we have to reteach that. He got it eventually. Had command words.."pips" and "poops" ( I could have thought that latter one out better). It was the same as housebreaking. A correction, leading to proper spot, and then the command. It was useful eventhough he never wound up doing anything structured at all. 

Anyway, you were looking for ideas. What about something like rally? Or flyball? Like someone else said you can do the BH without bite work too and launch from there. Also you mentioned the rollerblading in an other post? Are there any owner/dog team type sports like cross country type stuff that you two can do? Just thinking outside of the box.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

CometDog said:


> My dog pooped out a Darth Vader once during advanced off lead training in an indoor facility. At first everyone was horrified (because dogs that make it to this stage just don't do that), then they realized this was a special case scenario. Even the best of them can't prairie dog a Darth Vader! There was some brief discussion over the identity of the action figure, as I had mentioned we were also missing Snake Eyes. Snake Eyes has night vision glasses though and his helmet is shaped differently.
> 
> Don't sweat it, I am sure you are well aware that whatever you choose to do you will have to work on it, I had to do it when I had a young SD canditdate. He washed out (not because of Darth, because of other reasons) It was kind of tough to do. He was housebroken, but he was under the learned impression that outside was fine, regardless. Only when we passed for SDIT did we have to reteach that. He got it eventually. Had command words.."pips" and "poops" ( I could have thought that latter one out better). It was the same as housebreaking. A correction, leading to proper spot, and then the command. It was useful eventhough he never wound up doing anything structured at all.
> 
> Anyway, you were looking for ideas. What about something like rally? Or flyball? Like someone else said you can do the BH without bite work too and launch from there. Also you mentioned the rollerblading in an other post? Are there any owner/dog team type sports like cross country type stuff that you two can do? Just thinking outside of the box.


I'm not sure what a darth Vader is but lol!! Thanks Comet, makes it a little better. What's flyball? I like the idea of doing the BH without the bitework! Do they have dog roller blading races? If not maybe we should get on it... sounds like an interesting sport lol


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Oh! Also, Lure coursing and Dock Diving. Flyball is a riot!


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Is there some sort of listing somewhere of competitions so we know what's available in our area?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Because you and Gandalf seem to like obedience and he’s good at it, rally might be a good choice. If you are good at thinking on the fly and he responds quickly, that might be a great fit.

It sounds like you have a dog that can be successful at a number of things. Your instructor should be able to clue you in on the sport etiquette. Some basic stuff is the same but there are conventions in NW that differ from tracking that differ from conformation, and they should be helping students with that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Is there some sort of listing somewhere of competitions so we know what's available in our area?


Google InfoDog. That will give you conformation, rally, obedience, and I think agility and maybe some others? You can search by state.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> I'm not sure what a darth Vader is but lol!! Thanks Comet, makes it a little better. What's flyball? I like the idea of doing the BH without the bitework! Do they have dog roller blading races? If not maybe we should get on it... sounds like an interesting sport lol


Star Wars Action figure! He was about 4 inches tall.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

WateryTart said:


> Google InfoDog. That will give you conformation, rally, obedience, and I think agility and maybe some others? You can search by state.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Awesome thanks WateryTart!


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

List of Dog Sports: Activities that involve dogs

Here is a list of dog sports with descriptions if you click on them. Maybe this will help give you some more ideas. It's just a basic list and won't give you any info on where you can actually do it, but hey. At least it's a start.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

AKC has an event finder on the website. WCRL rally has its own website and events page, same with CDSP You won't find friendlier or more supportive people in the world than WCRL rally folks, at least in my experience. Not sure I'd say the same for AKC obedience people

RallyDogs - What's Happening

The two major dock diving orgs are Dock Dogs and NADD

https://northamericadivingdogs.com/Event/eventList

https://dockdogs.com/events/dockdogs-events-calendar/

If you care about AKC titles, they recognize NADD but not Dock Dogs

You asked if dock diving is dangerous, I don't think so, especially not the way I do it (he loves to jump but I am not under any delusion that he will be the next record breaker, i suck at throwing among many other things, he just jumps swims and he's out). I even do it with my old dog and she has been fine. Some organizations do not do the extreme vertical jumps for worry of dogs hitting bottom. I always thought those events did look kinda scary and I would not do that with my dog. But other than extreme vertical, I think the others are pretty safe. The docks I have been on had very good footing. My club's dock has recycled football field artificial grass with padding. It is not slippery AT ALL and good shock absorption too. For my dog-- throwing the toy into the pool is way safer than throwing it on land!

You can also do ASCA obedience or rally.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Is there some sort of listing somewhere of competitions so we know what's available in our area?


AKC redid their events website a few months ago, somehow I think it got MORE confusing and doesn't scroll well on mobile devices (sigh), but the "Event Search" function does work. You can search out things by location or type. 

https://webapps.akc.org/event-search/

Agility recently (maybe last year or the year before) offers a new entry level test, ACT1 and ACT2. It's meant to be fun milestone for dogs getting started.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

And - agree with cowboysgirl - ASCA has some great opportunities. 

I paid about $25 last year to get one of my GSDs an ASCA tracking number, and it costs me about $10/year to renew so they track her legs/titles. I had great experiences at ASCA trials, they were welcoming and I got good fair judging for my "honorary" Non-Aussie-Aussie.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

i haven't competed in ASCA yet but I did just get him his # because one of my good friends is in Aussies and does ASCA everything and we thought it would be fun to compete together. 

So far all I can say is their business side is more user friendly and responsive than AKC!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> i haven't competed in ASCA yet but I did just get him his # because one of my good friends is in Aussies and does ASCA everything and we thought it would be fun to compete together.
> 
> So far all I can say is their business side is more user friendly and responsive than AKC!


Word. 

The ASCA judges we trialed under made a point at the end of the weekend to thank those of us from other breeds who "Chose ASCA for dog sport". I have nothing negative to say about them.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

WIBackpacker said:


> Word.
> 
> The ASCA judges we trialed under made a point at the end of the weekend to thank those of us from other breeds who "Chose ASCA for dog sport". I have nothing negative to say about them.


I am told there are sometimes special prizes for the non aussies competing...by my friend who is always trying to get me to defect to ASCA--she sends me pics of "high in trial non aussie" ribbons and stuff...plus their ribbons are totally better than WCRL and I'm super shallow...I really like my bling that we get at trials LOL

I'll pick out a ribbon somewhere that I like and be like, now what do I have to do to get THAT one?


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

They absolutely did. There were awards for High In Trial Other Breed, Most Promising Started Other Breed, and a handful I'm probably forgetting. They also allowed limited day of trial entries which is soooooo nice for all of us who work weird hours, have family commitments, bitches in (or out) of season.... I could go on.

Highly recommend their venues.


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## GandalfTheShepherd (May 1, 2017)

Thanks for the suggestions all! Looks like we have a good place to start now :smile2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

GandalfTheShepherd said:


> Thanks for the suggestions all! Looks like we have a good place to start now :smile2:


Good luck but fair warning, you may get addicted, I did, and it is not a cheap hobby. But considering what I used to spend on cigarettes and that would just give me cancer...I'm okay with it


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