# A few philosophical questions......



## W.Oliver

Regardless of why, the GSD has evolved into two distinct groups, the working line and the show line. Certainly we can subdivide each, West German or Czech/DDR, and West German or American/Canadian, but for sake of discussion, let us focus on the macro, working & show, which is really where the question resides.

The organizational struggles, amongst the various breed groups, have everything to do with individual interpretation of what characteristics best represent the breed. If we strip away the politics, the struggle is really over unification…one breed. Which translates to one group as correct, and the other incorrect in their respective interpretations of what a GSD is?

Is it time to stop fighting for unification, and settle into separation? If so, who best represents the Working Shepherd Dog? Is that the RSV2000 and USA? Who best represents the Show Shepherd Dog? Is that the SV and GSDCA?

Is the next fight over who gets to retain the “German Shepherd Dog” name, almost as if it were a brand?


----------



## Doc

There should be a return to what pappa Max described as versitile dog - not subdivisions - but one dog that can work and be shown.

I don't care to classify into distinct "groups". A German shepherd was created to do both. "A master of none, but good at everything".

This hogwash about my dog can do this but doesn't do that is a bunch horse hockey. Greed and politics has ruined our breed. 

Please don't try to convince me that we "need" to pick among the above mentioned categories. For if we do, we have done a great injustice to this breed.

The "true" German shepherd should be a dog that has the ability to do what ever task is placed in front of him - which includes working, showing, etc.

So to unify the house, go back to the historical root of this breed. Read and study and debate the words and knowledge of the founding fathers. I think, if done with an open mind, one will discover that the current split in this breed was/is built upon a house of cards and one that will not withstand the test of time.

Go back to the original Sch. "test" - is it the same test that the original German shepherds had to endure? When and why did herding get pushed to the back burner? And why can't a dog that is a versitile worker (working being defined as many different different activities, not just Sch.) be a show champion? 

Have we encamped to the point of no return?


----------



## Liesje

I agree with Doc, we don't need to "pick" from these organizations. Those that truly value the breed already know what is correct and what should be acceptable. They don't and shouldn't need to be policed from the top down.


----------



## Jason L

> Originally Posted By: DocWhen and why did herding get pushed to the back burner?


I'm really curious - when and why?


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocThere should be a return to what pappa Max described as versitile dog - not subdivisions - but one dog that can work and be shown.


For the record, I believe the small hobby breeders who train, handle, and title (Herding/Schutzhund) their working line GSD best capture the spirit of what Max von Stephanitz had intended for the breed.



> Originally Posted By: DocPlease don't try to convince me that we "need" to pick among the above mentioned categories. For if we do, we have done a great injustice to this breed.


I am not attempting to convince you of anything, nor was my intent to initiate a selection. I am simply making the observation that the damage has been done.



> Originally Posted By: DocSo to unify the house, go back to the historical root of this breed. Read and study and debate the words and knowledge of the founding fathers. I think, if done with an open mind, one will discover that the current split in this breed was/is built upon a house of cards and one that will not withstand the test of time.


This is the essence of what I am asking....does anyone really think the house can be unified? Are you suggesting the keepers of the true spirit of the breed wait it out for "the test of time"? I would simply ask why?.....and here I would hold out the white shepherd line as a reasonable example. Would it be unreasonable to think the show shepherd line take an independent direction comparable to the white shepherd line, or conversely, under the roof of a unified house do we invite in the white shepherd? I would rather see the working line shepherd break away and distill the truth independantly. Let the rest do as they please.



> Originally Posted By: DocHave we encamped to the point of no return?


Here I have to access a 15 yard penalty for simply rephrasing my question.







(admittedly, I enjoy your wordsmithing) I do think we are at a point of no return, and I think a divergence could evolve. If that is the case, could you see the SV/GSDCA going off in a show line direction and the RSV2000/USA going off into a working line direction? I know, I know, reference your quote below.......



> Originally Posted By: DocGreed and politics has ruined our breed.


Very interested in your thoughts.........


----------



## W.Oliver

Post Script......

I have loved an Americian line for 10 years that was frightened by her own shadow, God rest her soul. I have spent the last two years training a wonderful West German show line....and soon, I will be the proud Papa of a Wildhaus working line ("I" Litter). The longer I train with GSDs the more I come to understand, I didn't know what I didn't know!!!!


----------



## Liesje

This split is not unique to our breed. Not that it justifies it at all, but sometimes I think it's just a better use of time and resources for true fanciers, hobby breeders that really know and work their dogs to keep doing what they are doing rather than try to change other peoples' minds. I go to Seiger Shows and the vast majority of the people there don't seem to have *any* problem with the way their dogs look or perform (or total lack thereof). Sad.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI think it's just a better use of time and resources for true fanciers, hobby breeders that really know and work their dogs to keep doing what they are doing rather than try to change other peoples' minds.


I agree completely. That is really my point, I don't think there is any ability to change peoples' minds.....and if we recognize that, would it be more productive to pick-up our marbles and go home? Which begs the question....where is home for working lines? Is that RSV2000, or maybe USA?


----------



## cliffson1

The problem is money, asthectic beauty, and breeders who know little of what the breed should be. (When I say know I don't mean having read...that's a lazy person's knowledge and inadequate.) The German Shepherd is a working dog...right???....well if you can't train a dog you have limited knowledge of the capabilities/abilities of the breed. Therefore, you will accept almost anything on this front(working),...after time and generations the dog will no longer work as a result. C'mon people...you think Labrador breeding can flourish in the desert??
The other piece is people breeding for what "they Like". If 70% of the German shepherds in the world are black and tan/red, and black and red/tan is subordinate to sable....then figure it out people. When man alters the balance of natural chemistry this much, bad usually results. The breed is a working breed, most of the remaining working dogs are sable, HELLO!!!, this isn't hard to figure out. But people don't care about the breed, they care about personal preferences, (croups, angulation, color, tail touches the ground so pretty, look at him move!!! as he runs for the exit gate to get out of the ring if he could). 
Wayne, it a good philosophical topic, but frankly people cant subordinate their preferences to have a meaningful discussion about what should be done. They wouldn't have any toes left from being stepped on so much!JMO


----------



## Doc

All current organizations should take a back seat to a "New" German shepherd organization. I was taught many years ago that when organizations change course from their original mission, failure and rebellion is bound to follow. If you want to recreate the German shepherd to what is was suppose to be - get rid of all the current, politically corupt, money hungry, uneducated directors, and return to the original mission of the SV. But keep in mind the lessons that have been learned over the 100 years of history. 

Read and debate why Max went to Barvaria for more substantial dogs. Investigate the battles that waged between the other members of the early SV. People today have no clue, and do not want to study, what the true German shepherd was all about.

As long as it is Black and red, by God it's a German shepherd worthy of titles. Where are the sables dogs Ciff mentioned? What happened to the German shepherd that could herd from sun up to sun down and awake the next morning and do it again day after day - then go to a show and win best of breed? They have been replace by trendy breeding and an uneducated buyer and judges that have their hand out.

So I say, tell the current organizations to pick up their marbles and get lost in order that the true German shepherd dog can survive. Their rule has ruined of breed.

Philosophically speaking of course ...


----------



## Ruthie

I find this topic very interesting. I have only owned GSDs for 6 years, my first a BYB rescue who had a great temperament, and the current a working line. So, maybe my response will show my lack of experience, but here it is anyway.

The biggest impact of this issue for me was the dog show in Detroit at Cobo two years ago. We started out a the Leader dogs for the blind display and saw a GSD leading someone through a course. We then watched the SAR dog demo, amazed at the GSD who identified a volunteer child from the audience who was hidden under a pallet, another who picked a child out of a line up after one sniff of her jacket, and much more.

Then we went to the confirmation ring. We saw GSDs who had absolutely NO spark, they didn't show any camaraderie with their handlers, and worst of all some could barely walk because of the extreme slope of their hind end. It made me absolutely sick. I literally stood there and cried.

I hate to say it, but those of us who own GSDs who can work and have great temperaments and are wonderful dogs or even those that breed them are not going to change the ignorance and dare I say... greed. Because, let's face it, there is a market for the couch potato, low energy, no fight in 'em GSD. 

American Shepherd Dog? I say cut 'em loose.


----------



## gagrady

I love these posts and learn a great deal every day. As many other discussions this one is focused on how the breed has been ruined. I sense a tone of surprise on how this can happen in many opinions and wonder why would anybody be surprised? 
Believe me, I really understand where the true stewards of the GSD breed are coming from but is it really so surprising that the quality of the breed has been compromised over the years? I may be stating the obvious but it is simple demand-supply economics. We hit a tipping point where everyone wanted to own a GSD - quality is obviously compromised when the scale is expanded. Everyone getting upset out of love for the breed is obviously understandable but what is going around is simply what happens with everything else in the world. It is not surprising at all. I apologize if I sound a little shallow in my simplistic analysis but my opinion is unless the GSD is in need or in demand to perform the tasks that are commensurate to the true abilities of the breed there is no motivation for the world to change and produce quality dogs. And, I am sorry, but hobby is not a need - so, what is the next 'herding' job for the GSD that will force people to produce high quality jobs. No intentions to offend, just my opinions.

Grady


----------



## cliffson1

The demand for working GS is there, ask Homeland Security, ask Police depts., and ask military overseas. Yet you are just as apt to see a malinois then a GS at the job the GS made famous. No its not a lack of demand, its people breeding for everything(money, show, sport, color, longcoats, etc) but what the founder said we should breed for....WORK!!!!!


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocSo I say, tell the current organizations to pick up their marbles and get lost in order that the true German shepherd dog can survive. Their rule has ruined of breed.
> 
> Philosophically speaking of course ...


I like the thought, but I suspect the working line folks are the minortity.....and again I ask, where is home for true working lines?

I believe the true stuarts of the working lines are the hobby breeders, of which there are few. Maybe it is time for them to band together and take over the world?

I'd like to welcome you to the North American Working Line GSD Breeders' Association.

Does anyone think that RSV2000 has the potential to take a leadership role for working lines?


----------



## Doc

Maybe the real question should be "Where is the home for true German shepherds?"

I still contend that the German shepherd is one dog that can exhibit mastery in work and in show. One is not more important than the other, but rather a balance of both within one dog is the ultimate prize. Is that possible? Not in today's organizations that place emphasis on one trait over another. Therefore, until an organization is formed that is built upon the philosophy of one dog that is able to excel in all catagories, there will never be unification.

I submit that the German shepherd was and is suppose to be a dog that can be shown and work. The challenge has been and will continue to be - how do you define "show worthy" and "work"? And can the breed return to its original ideal that was created over 100 years ago and rewarded a dog that conformed and worked.

Questions:

Is it time to rewrite the Standard? example - Why are white and blue German shepherds the red-headed step children?

Should more emphasis be placed on health and temperament? example - What is the source of EPI and how can it be reduced?

On another note, I too believe that hobby breeders are the last great hope for this breed. I've been called a lot of different things on this forum - and most not very positive. It's true I have been around a few years. I'm not sure why folks like myself are in the minority on this forum. I suspect it has a lot to do with the lack of respect exhibited towards those who speak up and try to remind the younger folks of the past. I personally think it reflects the current mindset of the majority of the current German shepherd masses. From a historical point of view - it reminds me of the debate that raged between the Wurttemberg dog owners and the Max's Thurginian faction. History reflects that the lowly farmer - the one that used his dog for herding - were quiet folk too busy working to get involved in the political battle of what a German shepherd dog should reflect. So their voices fell silent and Wurttemberg line stayed on the farm. Thank God Max was smart enough to recognize the qualities of this line and was quick to incorporate it into his foundational breeding. 

Fast forward today - we are at a cross roads. For those of us that have watched, studied, loved, and bred the German shepherd dog over the past 30 years, we can testify that the decline has been accomplished. Can it get much worse? 

Where are the Max's that can recognize what is truly needed to save this once noble breed? I say it lays within the hearts. souls and voices of the silent minority - the hobby breeders and God forbid if they are labeled as a BYB! So again I contend, break completely from those that have put us where we are today. From the small hamlet in the farmland of Ohio, from the deltas of Mississippi, to the townships in the Rockies, to the wheat fields of Kansas, across the plains of the Dakotas, to the majestic mountaintops of the Sierras, to the shores of California - let the voices of those who have been driven into the underground be heard. It is time for a change.


----------



## Andaka

I agree that part of the problem is that show dogs usually don't work. Depending on your definition of work. Speaking from the point of view of the American show ring. Show people in general are not interested in work of any sort. Their dogs live in the kennel, and only come out to go to a show. It is a "big deal" to come out of the kennel to go to a show. That is what makes them so hyped up to go.

I usually defend the American Show Line dogs, because I have them. But my dogs don't look or act like the ones generally described as extreme, sloppy, or nervy. I know you guys are tired of hearing about how great my dogs are. But I have worked hard for years to produce these dogs to be what I wanted in a German Shepherd. A dog that can walk out of the show ring and work. For the last four years, I have had dogs that have placed well in the performance events at the GSDCA National and then placed in conformation classes at the same show.


----------



## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> I know you guys are tired of hearing about how great my dogs are. But I have worked hard for years to produce these dogs to be what I wanted in a German Shepherd. A dog that can walk out of the show ring and work. For the last four years, I have had dogs that have placed well in the performance events at the GSDCA National and then placed in conformation classes at the same show.


I had the pleasure of meeting your dogs in NC in '05 and you do indeed have a reason to be proud.


----------



## Doc

Daphne,

I think you and your dogs reflect what the true German shepherd is all about. Please keep producing your very much needed dogs.


----------



## Liesje

Another angle is simply the availability of events in these venues. I am a member of several orgs and register my dogs all over the place, not because I really care to get involved in the politics, but simply because I like to be active with my dogs and am not particularly picky about the venue. We've participated in or competed in WDA, USA, AKC, UKC, CPE, SDA, APDT, and C-WAGS events. Like I said earlier, I think the only way to change minds is from the ground up. That means the breeders and the exhibitors. I'd rather enter my dogs in all these orgs and prove that they are versatile, hard working dogs by going out there to show and trial my dogs than bitch and moan to the people at the top supposedly charged with preserving the breed.

I don't want to have to pick between WDA and USA. I know which one I will pick if that's what it comes down to, but whichever one I pick, the other is still going to lose a lot of money from me because I've been paying membership to both and participating in events for both.

My other gripe is that I believe form follows function. I suppose that means for me it can't be true that show and work are _equally_ important. A dog cannot perform the work on an on-going basis if there are problems with the structure of the dog. I do show my dogs, but they get passable ratings and never top placements because they are not "type-y" show dogs and not from the big kennels with all the money and political power in the breed. I don't really care though, I do not want a hyper-angulated roached back dog that looks square. Even some of the working lines these days are making me cringe.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: AndakaI agree that part of the problem is that show dogs usually don't work. Depending on your definition of work. Speaking from the point of view of the American show ring. Show people in general are not interested in work of any sort. Their dogs live in the kennel, and only come out to go to a show. It is a "big deal" to come out of the kennel to go to a show. That is what makes them so hyped up to go.
> 
> I usually defend the American Show Line dogs, because I have them. But my dogs don't look or act like the ones generally described as extreme, sloppy, or nervy. I know you guys are tired of hearing about how great my dogs are. But I have worked hard for years to produce these dogs to be what I wanted in a German Shepherd. A dog that can walk out of the show ring and work. For the last four years, I have had dogs that have placed well in the performance events at the GSDCA National and then placed in conformation classes at the same show.


Andaka, This is really awesome to read. I am curious to hear from someone in the American Showline world who thinks a dog should still be able to work. What do you think is the reason some ARE breeding the type of dogs that I described seeing in my previous post? I would like to understand their side. There was just such a HUGE contrast between the spirited working dogs and the "sluggish" show dogs. Even for someone relatively new to the GSD world, it is hard to see them as the same breed.

I don't think that every GSD needs to "work", but I think they should all have the temperament and capability of doing so, like you described is the one of the goals of your breeding program.


----------



## Andaka

> Quote:Andaka, This is really awesome to read. I am curious to hear from someone in the American Showline world who thinks a dog should still be able to work. What do you think is the reason some ARE breeding the type of dogs that I described seeing in my previous post? I would like to understand their side. There was just such a HUGE contrast between the spirited working dogs and the "sluggish" show dogs. Even for someone relatively new to the GSD world, it is hard to see them as the same breed.
> 
> I don't think that every GSD needs to "work", but I think they should all have the temperament and capability of doing so, like you described is the one of the goals of your breeding program.


Many show people don't work their dogs because they don't want to. It is too hard. They also want to keep lots of dogs for showing and they can't work them all. If you want to get your stud dog bred to by other breeders, you have to show what he can produce. So you breed one or two bitches to him and keep a couple of pups from each litter. Now you have gone from three dogs to more than twice that many!! How to find time to train them all??

It is also easier to keep lots of dogs in dog runs outside. If they are high drive and need to work, they become destructive in that environment if not given an outlet for that need. The dogs also become starved for attention. This makes them "double handle" really well. Double handling is when the owner calls the dog from outside the ring so that the dog will pull hard and look animated for the judge.

That being said, I don't do Shutzhund. I participate in AKC venues such as obidience, agility, herding, etc. Tag is also my service dog, and the third "show dog" that I have trained to help me. And this is not meant as a justification of their point of view.


----------



## Ruthie

Andaka, thank you for the insight. That is something I had not considered as a motivation. Knowing that there is someone out there, like you breeding American showlines that can still do the things they can do, I will be more specific in my criticisms from now on. Wayne, I will stop hi-jacking your thread with my own questions now.


----------



## khawk

Wayne, thank you for starting this thread. I have enjoyed reading it and I hope that it will grow like clif's thread about the fat lady singing. I admit to being firmly in Doc's camp on this one. I would also like to posit an idea about form and function. I believe that to some extent structure shapes temperament. I believe that a dog which can stand up on his feet, is strong, agile and well-balanced, is able to be more confident and energetic because his body creates and sustains his actions, whereas a dog who is out of balance, weak, plagued by extremes in his angles and structures is often lacking in the kind of 'drive' and confidence needed to be able to be functional precisely because his body cannot support that function. Perhaps Clif and Vandal might comment. At any rate, thanks again, Wayne, for the thread. khawk


----------



## FredD

Doc, Cliff, khawk, it is a pleasure reading your posts. Keep up the good work on our breed and history.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: khawk Wayne, thank you for starting this thread. I have enjoyed reading it and I hope that it will grow like clif's thread about the fat lady singing. I admit to being firmly in Doc's camp on this one.


Thank you, but I must say, I am simply a student of the GSD, and this thread is an opportunity to learn. Professionally, I have been a student of organizational culture and specifically....change. Clif's thread is what set me to thinkin'......

I will join you in your admission, and pitch my tent in Doc's camp as well. However, I think he is nobler than I in regards to unification. Pragmatically, I fear it is too late. I have entered the GSD drama in what I feel may be the final act. I can only imagine that real GSD enthusiasts, who have had to bear witness for the last several decades, gain no satisfaction in, “I told you so”. 

The departure from working ability in some lines leads me to believe unification is a pipedream. I am not suggesting it is impossible genetically….the population, over time, could be restored to the original spirit “Papa Max” envisioned. I am putting forth the notion that emotionally, organizationally, and culturally….it is highly unlikely.

For reasons I am not interested in exploring here, the white shepherd lines are an excellent example of organizational divergence. The folks who have a passion for whites, have gone off and done their own thing, enjoying what they enjoy.

Is it time for working line folks to do the same? Can someone point me to the way home?

Wouldn’t it be glorious if a grass roots passion for a dog that can herd, and show in the ring, took life with an independent association of working line breeders? Bottom-up management, rather than top-down.

The annual Breeders’ Cup, awarded to the highest scoring dog in Herding/SchH, and show ring. How cool would it be to see a working line conformation show????

Dogs that walk on their pasterns need not apply.

…..and, the Breeders’ Cup annual event could be in Las Vegas!!!!!!

Clearly, I’ve gone too far……………good night.


----------



## W.Oliver

Post script.....

The Fat Lady has begun to sing, was kicked-off by Anne, but Clif has caused me to stop & think more than once, as well as Doc and several others.

Just thought I'd watch the video again before calling it a night, and realized Vandal rolled that snowball down the mountain.


----------



## Doc

Wayne

I have also been engaged in organizational change for a long time. That is why my answer was to tell the current organization to take their marbles and go home. It is too late for them. IF a change is going ot happen, it has to be grass roots. And it is never too late for change. It is ok to get tired, but never never give up. I am willing to spend what time I have left here on this earth in this noble cause. Can we right the ships that carried us to here? Probably not. But we can sure as hail try to cross the river in a new boat! The water is rough but we know our course. The winds will blow, but we will not shiver nor drift for long. Together, we can reach new heights and accomplish what others can only dream. I still believe that the best days of our breed are in front of us. We just need the strength and courage to press forward.


----------



## W.Oliver

Doc you're too idealistic.

Herding is the most noble work of the breed, and an excellent example of the deterioration (loss in popularity).

The question was asked earlier, "When and why did herding get pushed to the back burner?" Again you have to look at it pragmatically, and even "Papa Max" recognized it, the deterioration is simply due to the fact not everyone has access to a modest herd of sheep to train with. The dog needs work, enter SchH....even city folk can train in SchH! 

I LOVE SchH! But I also appreciate SDA and the suit work. Some may argue the dilution of training slows SchH progress, but I would suggest working a dog with a suit avoids a sleeve happy dog. I want to train my dog that work is protecting me, not playing with a sleeve.

So again I ask....where is home for the working GSD? Is that a new organization, or is that USA? Or maybe, is that RSV2000? I would be interested in membership statistics....are they published anywhere? Of the USA membership, how many are show line Sieger breed survey folks, and how many are working line SchH folks?

Is it time for separation within the existing organizations?....other breeds have miniatures and standards, and I think some even segregate coat color/pattern. Is it too outrageous a notion that GSD be split into two distinct groups...working & show (white too, don't want to offend by exclusion...but you folks with a passion for whites, really don't need the rest of us!). In the conformation ring, working lines would be measured against working lines and shows, against shows. Working lines would have their Herding or SchH trials, and show lines would have their breed surveys.

I am being too naive?


----------



## Andaka

So, if you go off and create your own club for working line GSD's, where do those of us who want "show dogs" that can work go? The GSDCA promotes a much too extreme dog for my tastes, and only gives lip service to health and training. So where do I go with my moderate, smart, healthy AKC dogs? Yes, I have AKC, but the GSDCA dogs are pushing their way into my territory, making it more difficult to get good show ratings for me as well.

How do we show the show world what a "real GSD" is supposed to look like and act like if we run away from the fight?  Like Doc says, it must come from the ground up. We must lead by example. Splitting off only leads to more splits. Sometime down the road, the working line folks who breed dogs of correct structure will want to split off from the working line folks who only care about how high they score. What then?


----------



## Doc

Idealistic? Perhaps. I see no advantage to split the German shepherd into groups - it is already been done and ruined the breed. A German shepherd was "created" to do both. One dog - many skills, period. 

The color restrictions (particularly white) was a mistake and made under false assumptions. With our current understanding of genetics, color should not exclude a dog. I had a white German shepherd that lived for over 13 years and was healthy her entire life. 

You appear to be set in finding a home for the "working" German shepherd which, to me, says you see no hope for unification. (Remember, Max created the original Sch. trials and when he saw that the German shepherd was losing the ability to herd, he names a very ugly- yellowed eyed dog as champion in order to bring back that trait - ~1929 or '30. I can't recall dates as well as I once did). 

I am set on finding a home for the true German shepherd. A place that draws from Max's original ideas and incorporates the knowledge gained over the ensuing 100 years. Is that too idealistic? I think not. But it is and always will be if people keep crawling back into the mindset that one dog can not possible be a show dog and a working dog. The change hinges upon one's "perspective transformation" and it is a powerful, educational, and life changing experience.

Do you want a revolution? Or will this breed, a breed we all love regardless of it's color, fall by the wayside? I hope and pray not. Two different classifications for the German shepherd - working and show? Poppycock! Blasphemy!


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: AndakaSo, if you go off and create your own club for working line GSD's, where do those of us who want "show dogs" that can work go? The GSDCA promotes a much too extreme dog for my tastes, and only gives lip service to health and training. So where do I go with my moderate, smart, healthy AKC dogs? Yes, I have AKC, but the GSDCA dogs are pushing their way into my territory, making it more difficult to get good show ratings for me as well.
> 
> How do we show the show world what a "real GSD" is supposed to look like and act like if we run away from the fight? Like Doc says, it must come from the ground up. We must lead by example. Splitting off only leads to more splits. Sometime down the road, the working line folks who breed dogs of correct structure will want to split off from the working line folks who only care about how high they score. What then?


I've found a happy medium in the UKC. I've seen champions from Am Lines, German lines, and working lines. They offer obedience, rally, agility, weight pull, dock diving, Dog Sport (protection and obedience)...all of which I currently do or plan to do with my GSDs. They have Total Dog awards for dogs that show and compete in trials at the same events. I also like that it's a very friendly atmosphere. No professional handling. They have NLC classes so you can get experience with your puppies, or continue participating with altered and veteran dogs. Last large UKC show I was in, most of the dogs in the Grand Champion class in the conformation ring had Schutzhund titles and/or participated in at least 2 performance/sport events. In fact, around here the only dogs showing that don't are from a few Am Line breeders that cross over into UKC. The rest of us are all very involved in sport/working events. I did a small show a while back with Nikon but convinced a friend to come along with her pure working line dog. She has no interest in conformation but we thought it would be fun. The judge actually said she has a very nice dog (we just need to ring train him) and I've seen this particular judge in many pictures handling the Am Line dogs.


----------



## FredD

Wayne02, You bring up good questions and thoughts. I, myself have breed, trained, and owned GS's for over 30+. I have also watched this beautiful breed go down from the original concept of Max's. Have we gone to far? Yes, in my opinion. Can we change? Not in my lifetime. How? It's people like Doc, Cliff, khawk, that keep reminding us of what it once was. Experience is from living it and seeing it, and learning from it. This breed, has taught me what real life is about, loyalty, companionship, family, trust, protection, working to please me, and yes, love.. They will be with me until the good lord takes me away and we meet again at the Bridge. We have to look after them, they depend on US.............


----------



## Liesje

I think one problem is everyone wants change but no one is actually getting involved. So how can we expect people to do what we want when we sit here behind a computer screen telling them what to do? If we channel the effort into training our dogs and putting them out there as examples of what we want to see, I think that is a far more effective use of time. If you truly believe in your dogs and your breeding program (meaning a general "you" here), then get them out there and show them off! Show everyone else what they are missing and that you don't just talk the talk but walk the walk.

Several months ago some friends of mine attended a show knowing that the judge dislikes the lines our dogs come from. That did not stop them. We had many dogs entered and several ended up placing very wel, winning over the "typey" show line dogs and getting very good critiques. I think a lot of judges are arrogant hard-arses but what can we do other than prove to them they are wrong?


----------



## valkyriegsd

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02 Herding is the most noble work of the breed...


I don't look at it quite that way. Herding itself it was not done because it was 'noble', but because it was _needed._ The _traits_ that make a great herding dog are what I consider worth preserving. I can't imagine a need for me to ever herd a flock of sheep. I _can_, however, see a need for the type of dog who could. 

I have always had Am. show-line dogs and have worked them in obedience, PP and a little herding. They've been smart, trainable and are NOT crippled.  If I never had a chance to see anything else, how would I have known there was another option? I am training in Search & Rescue, and you need a good working dog for that. AND it's useful in today's world. I now have a DDR puppy and will soon know personally the differences between the show-lines _I_ have had and a working-line dog!









So I say 'preserve the working dog' and keep them within sight of the people who breed only for show dogs. How else can anyone have a chance of seeing how extreme some breeders have gotten?


----------



## Liesje

I think if we are really going to push herding, then we should be supporting HGH programs. I believe the WDA is trying to start up an HGH program here in the US.


----------



## Doc

I'm not saying to push herding, it is one of the many skills the German shepherd exhibits. I am using it as an example. Lets broaden the definition of "working" as it applies to the German shepherd. Unfortunately, an overly amount of time, effort, and breeding has been directed towards creating a SchH. dog at the expense of other working abilities. "Working" German shepherds should be good not only in SchH (however that is defined - or is it time to redefine the requirements of that work?) but also be good at other service work - one is not more important than the other but all aspects of work should be equally as important.

On another point, black and red German shepherds are fine, but they are not any better than say a sable, or white, or blue just because they are black and red. Again, a majority of breeders have jumped on the red/black bandwagon at the expense of other colors. The German shepherd should not be judged by the color of his coat but rather by the content of his character.

The same principle applies to the extreme isms found in the German shepherd of today. German shepherd dogs should not be rewarded based on any extremes for those extremes come at a price. IMO, rewarding "extremes" has contributed to the decline of the breed and driven the split.

The German shepherd dog was created to be the total package - good looking and the ability to work and serve.


----------



## Liesje

I agree with Wayne re. herding. I don't know anyone who has land and 300+ head of sheep available. That is why fanciers who want to work dogs but aren't shepherds themselves usually choose Schutzhund. I'd love to herd with my dogs but I was wait-listed b/c there are so few places where it is available. As soon as a spot opens up I'll have to decide which dog gets to do it. All of my dogs get tested.

As for judging based on color, I don't think that really factors in as far as show and work. Individual people may have personal preferences, and John Q Public might choose the black and tan, but JQP are not the breeders and fanciers showing and working their dogs. I've see sable dogs in every conformation venue I've participated in (AKC, UKC, WDA, UScA) and I've personally seen sable dogs win in all but AKC (but that's probably only because I rarely watch the AKC conformation and when my own dog was entered there were no sable dogs).


----------



## gagrady

Time and again the downfall of the breed is attributed to irresponsible breeding. So, when we talk about change, can we not think of addressing the root cause? When you are in a hole first thing to do is stop digging - so, we know that irresponsible breeding won't stop and puppies will be produced - but - can there be a method to guide the consumers on which breeders produce high quality dogs? A large scale effort will eventually lead to forcing all breeders to be more conscious. So, a group of experts as this forum can come up with a list of breeders that it acknowledges as Certified or Trusted breeders based on a proven track record - no negative publicity. 
It is important to formalize the effort in some way and I find this to be a fairly inexpensive method. Just a thought.


----------



## valkyriegsd

> Originally Posted By: gagrady So, a group of experts as this forum can come up with a list of breeders that it acknowledges as Certified or Trusted breeders based on a proven track record ...


The problem w/that is WHO designates the 'experts'? There are plenty of 'experts' who stand behind each type of GSD, so how do you convince John Q Public that _your_ experts are the ones to listen to?? That's the problem with a breed that is so popular, there is no ONE group that is leading the way any longer. So, while it's a good idea, I'm not sure it's really workable.


----------



## gagrady

I don't think it is that complicated - the administrators of this forum assign a committee or identify the experts. That's it. Keep it simple, get the first baseline and see how it evolves. 

There is no convincing to anybody. I am not sure of the member count of this forum but that is the initial audience. I do think that there are enough number of 'volunteers' like us who will spread the word - that is the grass roots approach IMO.

Again, the key is to formalize with some structure that creates a consistent identity of any organization and can be communicated easily.


----------



## Doc

If there is such an animal, you bring open-minded representatives from each camp to the table, leave the egos at the door, roll up your sleves, and go to work.

If we as a people can create a constitution that has withstood the past 200 years plus, surely we can come to an understanding about a breed of dog. I am not ready to give up the hope that this can take place. Forget who has ruined this breed - i.e. the current powers in control, thank them for their years of service (or disservice) and escort them out of the room.

"I see things that are and ask why, I dream about things that aren't and ask why not"?

Come on people, don't give up the fight. Will it be easy - no. Will ego's be stepped on - yes. But in the end, when the dust settles, the breed will have survived.


----------



## cliffson1

I agree with Wayne, I agree with Doc, I somewhat agree with Andaka. The German shep should be the consumate utility dog...point for Doc! The genotype and mindset of breeders today have diverged so much that it is probably not realistic to get a comprehensive German Shepherd model to right the ship...point for Wayne,...Dogs that are shown should be able to work....point for Andaka. My problem with Andaka's premise is that many of the show people that have dogs that can do "some" work do not produce dogs anymore that can withstand the work requiring aggression. The dog became supreme because of many of the characteristics that allowed it to become a poilce/military dog. You cannot omit these traits out of your breeding program and have a true German Shepherd. Maybe a labrador or golden in shepherd body, but not a true GS as it was intended. That doesn't mean ALL GS have to have this capacity for useful aggression, for this breed does many other things that doesn't require aggression in the work itself. But breeders CANNOT be responsible and purposely LEAVE out this component in their programs. It would be like a Lab breeder breeding exclusively for seeing-eye dogs knowing that the path leads to a dog that doesn't like water. Not all labs must function in water, BUT the essence of the dog is water based and should never have a problem with water endeavors if introduced to the Lab. Same with GS, the breeders MUST preserve the instincts AND abilities of the dog to serve man in protection capacities or else I side with Wayne(smile). I can't remember when I have seen an American breeder of showlines that had dogs that could do the "tough" stuff. (that's not putting down obedience, rally, agility, etc), but I'm talking about jobs requiring real protection aspects. You can't leave that out and not be doing a disservice to the breed as a whole. Now a good breeder will have dogs in a litter that can be shown, can do the tough stuff, can herd, can be just a pet. This is the essence of the breed, utility, and with that I side with Doc. But first and foremost, people have to know and CARE about what the dog should be and NOT what THEY want it to be to fit their values. Until that mindset is present, very few people will continue to breed German Shepherd as they SHOULD be.JMO


----------



## Liesje

I agree, Cliff. It's a super important point. The only AmLine person I can think of that comes close is Helen Gleason, but I don't really know much about her or her dogs other than their titles and pedigrees.


----------



## khawk

Ok, I'm going to add an example of maybe what Doc means by versatility. My last litter of pups went out 3 for service work, (1 brace/balance-wheelchair for a lady with ms, 1 for straight wheelchair work, 1 for an elderly couple with arthritis issues, brace/balance) 1 as a working cow dog, 2 for search and rescue, (1 of which will be doing therapy work at nursing homes as well) 2 for just pets. The one I kept for myself, the straight wheelchair aide dog, I have also started on obedience and tracking. I am out with the dogs twice a week with 2 different training groups working on them, just about every week. I am regularly stopped by John Q Public asking about the dogs and I try to explain a little about gsds on those occasions, do a little education. That's about the limit of what I can do. I go to fun matches and dog shows when I can get someone to help with the driving. Will my efforts change anything? Probably not. I'll keep trying as long as I'm able, but how much longer that will be is anyone's guess. My dream is to see gsds take their place again as the premier service dog in the service dog community. khawk


----------



## cliffson1

the founder definitely wanted the breed to be "service" dogs and a well bred litter will have pups in it that will make excellent service dogs. Red Cross dogs were used in World War 1 and 2. Seeing eye dogs had a long history of excellence in this country. The last dog that I bred to other than dogs I have imported, was a Police dog retired, Sch 3, CDX, PSA1, AND certified Therapy Dog. He went into nursing homes to visit the elderly. All in the same package!!! This is total dog IMO, and one that has work or service or sport qualities. And you would think that knowledgable breeders would want some of his genetics in their dogs if they are lacking in the areas of his strengths.(And he had many strengths by God). Nope! His croup wasn't perfect, his color wasn't black and red, his angles weren't extreme enough, his length of stifle was too short, Blah,blah, blah. He was only the true embodiment of the German Shepherd for what it was created for....buts that's not as important as people's personal preferences. I will never compromise the integrity of the breed and never respect any breeder that does compromise the integrity of the breed.


----------



## Doc

Here here!


----------



## cliffson1

Hey Doc. I'm outta breath....time for me to step off the soapbox before I fall from fatigue...LOL


----------



## W.Oliver

Clif, 

A wonderful dissertation on what a complete GSD is....but has nothing to do with the organization question the thread had posed. I so completely subscribe to what you wrote that my GSD trains in SchH and SDA several times a week and goes to the nursing home just as many times during any given week....and between those activities, she is part of the family and looks after my five children. She is a well rounded dog.

Having said that, allow me to refocus the thread......while at the same time refine the question (although I suspect this thread has run its useful or less than useful life, as the case may be).

Under the pretense, unification is a pipe-dream......

Organizationally, should working/show lines be segregated into two distinct groups within the existing organizational structure, or should they part ways and go in separate directions, similar to how the white shepherd folks have gone off and done their own thing? If they separate, what organization best represents working lines? Is that USA, or maybe RSV2000?

I cannot believe not one person has commented on RSV2000. I have been a member since 2008, and it never seems to get much play here?

Happy Thanksgiving!!!!


----------



## cliffson1

Honestly, Wayne I don't think that the time is near for the separation. I think because of the sheer numbers of the West German Showlines and the period of time it will take for the differences to be so stark, it will take about another 25 years. When the West German show dogs get to the point of the American Showline dog, I think you will see what you are posing take place. You see I saw the American show dogs in the same bottleneck situation in 1974 when I walked away from the showlines(Oh Yeah I did own







at one time, and imported my first dog in 1975). Never looked back. But at that time I said that unless AS people open up the lines with import blood they will breed themselves into nonfunctional working dogs as many of them were at that time. Fastforward to 1995, and it became apparent that the West German Showlines are not going to introduce any non Black and Red blood, so they too will breed this dog into non functional working dog(and many of them are there now also). In the past thirty years I have seen many many American show people get fed up and go to European dogs. I have NEVER seen anybody go from functional German shepherds to the American lines. (there may be 5 instances somewhere but in thirty years??? that makes my point). 
Now the German Showline dog will get to that point continung in the same direction as they have been going. It will take longer because of the Sch titles that flushes out extreme shyness and nerve issues to some degree, but eventually GENETICS will win out as it has in







and then the health issues and mental health issues(nerve,shyness, fearbased behavoirs), will be so prevalent that the real german shepherd people will have all left for the stronger rightful dog. 
At this point organizations like the RSV, WDA, USA, and remnants of SV that was workinglines will represent the breed. At that point I think you will see the separation of the breed much like has happened to the Belgian Sheepdog. You have three types of the Belgian sheepdog, but for all intents and purposes only one working one. that is Belgian Malinois. The Belgian Sheepdog and Belgian Teruven, are pretty much non working dogs anymore. (I know there are standard differences but this has evolved over time as separate standards had to reflect what the dogs had become.)
So Wayne, I think we are about 25 years from the separation, because the West German showline has just enough working functionality and popularity to continue the ride for now. But trust me unless they move away from the Black and Red color, (and if they do then it won't be the black and red showdog will it?), this dog will end up as the American Showline dog and then it will be a pariah just like a the American Show Shepherd, and then organiztional changes will occur. Also, by that time the West showlines number will be down just as the American showlines numbers have dwindled, and the workinglines will have increased to fill vacuum. You see West showlines benefited in numbers from the demise of the American lines as the same people who don't want a working dog but want a functional dog gravitated to the West showline. 
So be patient Wayne, if time is on your side you will see it one day.
PS I am not anti American showdog or West German Showdogs that will still represent the standard in their work ethic, and there a very very few American breeders left, and a few West German Show breeders left.....but as long as they continue to breed to their own type (regardless of the individual dog's temperament), genetics will win in the end.
This is my view on the organiztional direction of the breed.


----------



## cliffson1

One final thought, i have no problem with the many many German Shepherds that are wonderful pets of all the different lines whether they be American, German, or European. When I get on my soapbox, I am directing my dialogue to the BREEDERS who are the stewards of the breed and have a RESPONSIBILTY to breed what the dog ought to be and not what THEY like. But the people who have wonderful pets that fill important places in their families, my rants are not directed toward. Also, though I am passionate about the breed, I try to stay factual and realistic in my accounts of the breed. I personally love the black and red color of the German Shepherd, but I can't find this color with the Consistent work ethic genetically to be able to have one like I would like. Happy Holidays,Folks!


----------



## W.Oliver

Wham! Asked and answered.


----------



## Catu

Thanks cliff for your post. It has ben not only enlightening but also it gives me some hope that, after all, there is hope for a breed I love, but sometimes I feel drifted away because of the human politics.


----------



## Vandal

> Quote:So Wayne, I think we are about 25 years from the separation


They said it would take 50 years for the polar ice caps to melt too.











> Quote: It will take longer because of the Sch titles that flushes out extreme shyness and nerve issues to some degree, but eventually GENETICS will win out ....


I used to say that the WG showline had two feet in the American show ring and the other two on banana peels but now I think the only thing not there is the tip of the tail. The apparel worn by the handlers is about the only remaining difference between the two venues and of course the different type of extreme, grotesque structure.
The behaviors in the two lines are so similar now, I can't see what SchH is doing..... except making it obvious.


----------



## cliffson1

I'm trying to be tactful...(smile)


----------



## Vandal

BTW, I don't care when they split. It won't make any difference in the dogs. A huge majority of people now have no idea what a GSD is supposed to act like. They have no reference base and more are being indoctrinated daily to believe that the papers and titles on the pedigree mean more than the character of the dog. 
In some ways, we can even blame the current situation with the dogs on the founders of this RSV 2000. Helmut was responsible for introducing the prey method of training on a grand scale both here and in Germany. Sure, most people missed the other parts of what he said and continue to misunderstand it even today...not to mention, Helmut seems to make his methods more confusing with each passing year. It just should not be THAT complicated to train a dog. There are very few people that still kind of get it and they may be dying soon. That's the sad reality because the competition and bragging rights about winning and points is what matters the most now.


----------



## Vandal

> Quote:I'm trying to be tactful...(smile)


Thankfully, that trait was bred out of my bloodline a few generations back and age is removing any remaining remnants of it.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: VandalBTW, I don't care when they split. It won't make any difference in the dogs.


I agree. For all intent and purpose, the split exists....and if I know anything, I know you don't need any organization's formalization of that notion!











> Originally Posted By: VandalIn some ways, we can even blame the current situation with the dogs on the founders of this RSV 2000. Helmut was responsible for introducing the prey method of training on a grand scale both here and in Germany. Sure, most people missed the other parts of what he said and continue to misunderstand it even today...not to mention, Helmut seems to make his methods more confusing with each passing year. It just should not be THAT complicated to train a dog. There are very few people that still kind of get it and they may be dying soon. That's the sad reality because the competition and bragging rights about winning and points is what matters the most now.


Here I really don't know enough to even know if I agree, or disagree. I am inclined to defer to your experience. Having said that, I have a great deal of respect for Helmut. Based on my study, I have personally gained much more than just an understanding of the "Green", so your comments make me feel as though too many students of his methods didn't listen. Additionally, I can see where his approach could be characterized as complex, but I see value in his articulation of the theory behind SchH, and the thinking of the dog.

Setting that aside, and getting back to the base question working/show? Anne, I put you down for a, "who gives a split!"


----------



## Vandal

Not to distract from the point of your thread Wayne......but.....there is a big difference in understanding a theory in your head and being able to utilize it or put it into practice. That is the problem, and that goes hand in hand with what I already said about people not knowing what a GSD is supposed to act like. It is not about whether what he said is right or not, it is how many people can actually understand how to use it and when to use it. People hear about a trainer and show up to learn when maybe they are not at the stage where they can understand it well enough. Some people will adjust to the audience but I have not seen Helmut do that. He is comfortable talking right over people's heads. When he first came here the whip was introduced and for years after, hords of dogs were ruined by the incorrect use of the whip. Am I blaming him? Not really but people have a tendency to pay attention to the biggest attraction, just like dogs do and that is what they noticed. All the subties were completely missed. Last time he was here there were more methods presented that again sailed right over the skills of the trainers he was teaching and people started to try these things on dogs who were not ready for it. There are basic ideas in dog training that people still need to understand and reading the dogs is the biggest deficit I see in trainers. 
The method of using prey work was more appropriate when it was introduced because the DOGS were different then. Using it now may be less useful because of what the dogs are like now. Can't make it any clearer than that I guess. I learned more from Helmut and his explainations than just about anyone else but that wasn't the point I was attempting to make. 
It is a bit ironic what I said though, since the working line people have been the ones to present all the dog training innovations over the years that have led us to where we are. It wasn't the show people, although they sure hooked onto the use of play and prey in protection.


----------



## W.Oliver

Anne,

I think your post is within the spirit of the thread in that what any given trainer gets from a man like Helmut, and how that is applied.....is human nature. It is that same aspect of human nature that has created the difference in GSD lines. Regardless if the expression of human nature is realized in form or function. In temperament or conformation.

Personally, I learned a great deal from Helmut that I work to employ as a student of SchH. 










Speaking of my high line, and after catching her several times over an amazing weekend, Helmut said to me, "she will work fine for you to learn, until you can get a real dog."









God willing, March 2010, I will have my "I" vom Wildhaus pup! I've paid my dues, 10 years with an American line and my show line girl. As Sponge Bob says, "I'M READY!" (I'm sure a Sponge Bob reference is a real stretch here, but it makes me smile)

Happy Thanksgiving.


----------



## Ocean

One way to look at it is the GSD is such a versatile breed that it is more versatile than its human creators and owners. Essentially, different people have redefined it to fit their own wants, desires and preferences. That's democracy and the free market at work.
It's natural for people with the same preferences and "view of the world" to self select into different organizations.
Should there be limits?
I for one think yes, and what defines the limits should be what's good for the dog, first and foremost. The dog as a breed and the dog as an individual being.
That means the physical and mental health of the dog.
Extreme show breeding is not good for the physical health of the dog.
Inbreeding and too much linebreeding is not good for the dog and the breed.
Training methods just to get points for sport even when it's borderline dog abuse is not good for the dog and the breed.
Breeding dogs without using working tests is not good for the breed and the dog especially when it comes to mental health. The non-use of working tests result in poor nerves and a weak nerved dog lives in fear. A weak nerved dog is at risk of being put down due to a fear bite.
Lots more aspects to consider but the bottom line should be the well being of the dog. After the hubris, arrogance and selfishness of humans, the GSD more than anything needs our compassion.


----------



## Doc

You can learn everything you need to know about your dog and how to train it by observation of the dog and knowing its bloodlines. Air guns, chain links, whips, soap in a sock, etc. etc. it's all training in some peoples eyes. It's dog abuse in others. That applies to whatever line you are talking about. Germany's desire to control nature is pervasive throughout the early to mid 1900's - training/manipulating dogs included. Max feel in love with a dog he saw herding when he was a military officer (he was also from an affluent family that positioned him highly in the military). And in keeping in line with the German culture, he wanted to create a "special" dog that would be an emblem of the almighty Germans. How we got from his original vision to what we have today is the history of this breed.

I think it not only wrong, but a outwardly show of disrespect to history and old Max himself to debate a split in this breed. And I will do everything I can to stop it. And if I live to be 110, I know one day somebody will ask "what ever happen to those kind of German shepherd dogs" and I will hang my head and cry.

So Wayne, good luck in all your efforts in finding a home for your working line German shepherd. As for me and my house, I will work on finding/creating a home for the true German shepherd.


----------



## trudy

cliff you may know lots about GS but allow me to say you do NOT know about Belgians, only in the US are they separate breeds so the standard is exactly the same for all varieties except in coat and texture. In actual fact the biggest problem is that breeders of "working" Mals are trying to breed oversized dogs. The breed is supposed to be as tall as a GS, 22-24 female, male 24-26", but much lighter, average female 45 lbs, males 55-60. The blacks are used in France as police dogs and are seen more commonly than GS in search and rescue etc. All varieties can be interbred and even when bred specifically to its own variety won't always produce that. That is why the US threw out its mandatory 3 generation pure because it doesn't work. 

As often pointed out the different temperment in coats may explain some of the differences but a stable dog is a stable dog.


----------



## lhczth

And there are actually 4 varieties. Not just 3.


----------



## trudy

yes that is right 4 varieties, only 3 recognized in the US but a wire coat as well, the Laekin, and they are in being bred in the US. It is really nice to see all 4 in a show ring and see the differences and similarities.


----------



## Liesje

http://www.amarigsd.com/Bandit.html


----------



## cliffson1

Trudy, You are RIGHT!, I do not know about Belgians in their particulars but I do know which ones I see working worldwide. That was the essence of my post that the Malinois has evolved as the type that is working all over the world. I am sure that the other types are stable, never said they weren't. Any corrections you wish to make about the particulars is fine with me...I stand corrected...but I was really trying to paint a picture about working dogs worldwide which the German Shepherd and Malinois certainly are today.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Liesjehttp://www.amarigsd.com/Bandit.html


Sorry ignore this post! I was trying to respond to trudy in a different thread lol.


----------



## onyxena

I'm just going to post because I read the thread about You read, Why dont you psot??

I like all the different types. I love the coloring on Am lines and their gorgeous faces. I love the impressive stance of the G show lines, don't like the extremes of eitgher but they certainly are beautiful. I really love the look of the working lines, the darker the better, and how seriously they seem to take life. The frowned upon pet types are gorgeous too, in many ways I really like them better than the showlines. 
Basically I think there is a place for all of the diferences. People will always disagree, so trying tro make just one type will never work. There will always be folks who thing this type is crap or this type is too nervy, etc. So it's great there are so many different lines to choose from!


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: OnyxenaI'm just going to post because I read the thread about You read, Why dont you psot??
> 
> I like all the different types. I love the coloring on Am lines and their gorgeous faces. I love the impressive stance of the G show lines, don't like the extremes of eitgher but they certainly are beautiful. I really love the look of the working lines, the darker the better, and how seriously they seem to take life. The frowned upon pet types are gorgeous too, in many ways I really like them better than the showlines.
> Basically I think there is a place for all of the diferences. People will always disagree, so trying tro make just one type will never work. There will always be folks who thing this type is crap or this type is too nervy, etc. So it's great there are so many different lines to choose from!


You forgot whites.

Even an amazing working line dog, Hannes vom Spadener Holz , that I am simply crazy about, and hoping to get a puppy from, has a white bitch in his pedigree.

In fact, any GSD with the famous V Horand von Grafrath, has the white bitch Grief (Sparwasser) in their pedigree. 

So I agree with you....although I love working line GSDs, and I personally believe these dogs best reflect the spirit of what Max von Stephanitz had intended for the breed....I also believe people like what they like, and unification is not the answer....acceptance is.

My version of acceptance is separation. Separation of the working lines to protect them and perserve them. My acceptance of the other lines is a function of respect for the preferences of others....even if they're wrong!









Having said that....I still don't know where home is? Other than LWDC and Wildhaus.


----------



## lhczth

Curious, Wayne, how would you separate them? As different breeds?


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: lhczthCurious, Wayne, how would you separate them? As different breeds?


Lisa,

I think this thread forces out the real issue between the various GSD organizations as a question of unification. I think most recongize the probability of one is unlikely, so.........

Your question becomes the essence of the issue, and I don't know the answer? Hense my expresssion....where is home for the working line GSD?

The easiest solution would be breed types recognized within the existing organizational structure. Wouldn't it be a hoot to see an AKC show of working lines where to enter the ring the dog had to be SchH3, HTD3, IPO3, etc....which begs the question...would we then still call "them" show lines?

Not that I am interested in showing my dog, I am busy learning how to work a dog.....but what if there were acceptance of different lines, and each line had its type requirements, and there was nothing to argue about?

The alternative is an independent group dedicated specifically to working lines....leadership, specific to working lines.

Here I would suggest this is best answer is a coordinated effort of hobby working line breeders. The North American Working Line German Shepherd Dog Breeder Association (NAWLGSDBA).

Can somebody please work on a name for our leaders, that acronym sucks!


----------



## dOg

Holy Moly, just plowed thru this entire thread....

I doubt another organization is going to solve anything but suspect their may be room for another. Frankly there are probably too many already. As for bottoms up management, that's what causes the splits ain't it? And nobody is going to tell somebody who had a heart dog that was purple/green they shouldn't breed purple/green ones...it was the best dog they ever knew, don't ya know. 

Folks who enjoy working their dogs want dogs that can work. Folks who don't, not so much. It's a huge market, and there is every shape and flavor of dogs to fill the needs, and in our breed, there are as many types as the market will bear. 

As for fondling fathers of the constitution or the breed, these folks had their own agendas and put their pants on one leg at a time, likely never imagined their brand of bs would be so venerated for so long as to take on a life of it's own. 

JMO, don't mean to downplay any passion...I'm as whack as anybody here about our furry charges...but tend to laugh at myself easily too.
Passion is good, so is laughter. As versatile as gsd's are, there will always be plenty of diversity. Even in any large litter, the spectrum 
can be amazing.


----------



## W.Oliver

Post Script.....

With the NAWLGSDBA in a leadership role, then USA, AWDF, SDA, and/or Herding orgainzations, or maybe others I am not insightful enough to list, simply become vehicles of validation rather than seats of control. The control then shifts to the source.....working line breeders.

In automotive manufacturing, we refer to this as quality at source. Sort of the inverse of, garbage in, garbage out.


----------



## onyx'girl

> Originally Posted By: dOg As versatile as gsd's are, there will always be plenty of diversity. Even in any large litter, the spectrum
> can be amazing.


_________________________

Any new pics of that large litter from today Dan? I need an H fix!!


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: dOgAs for fondling fathers.........


DUDE! Your wife has been out of town for way too long. You call her and tell her to get her backside home from Minnesota NOW!


----------



## onyx'girl

I saw that too, but decided to take a pass...Max would be impressed or rolling in his grave.


----------



## lhczth

How would you separate them? By bloodline? Many workingline dogs have modern showlines in their pedigrees. Can't go by color or the fact that the dogs are working or not working. 

Separation is not the answer. If we want to maintain working dogs we must breed working dogs. It is through the dedication of working dog breeders that we will maintain the GSD as a working dog (even if I think we are fighting a losing battle). We don't need another organization. People just need to stand behind the organization that best represents the German Shepherd Dog. 

I am off for the day to train dogs.


----------



## cliffson1

Lisa, I agree with you in principle and some workinglines have modern showlines(very few though), but the problem is the modern showlines don't have any workinglines in them. So anybody that is going to incorporate them in their lines is going to take a giant step backwards in uniform nerve strength. This is the easiest thing to lose, the hardest thing to keep, and the most important part of the German shepherd, that allows it to do all the things that herding, service, sport, police, SAR, people have to have for the dog to be functional in service. The only people that don't need this is the show people. So WHO among serious breeders is going to use this blood in their breeding programs???? Nobody wants to go backwards in an area like nerve!!!! So the abyss and divide will continue. Just don't see any other way without compromising the essence of the breed.


----------



## dOg

I have a healthy BS meter which tends to peg in the orange zone when folks invoke the founding fathers said this, which means that...
so ya it was an intentional misspelling which reflects my attitude towards "authority", especially when it's shoved down other folks throats with dogma, scripture and/or snake oil. It was bad when I was young, and ain't mellowed much with age.

And no sorry, I did not stay and take H pics yesterday. My son is in town, so I took a pass and came home. 

As for show versus working consider this:

In any population of dogs, some small percentage will NOT have enough drive/nerve/aggression/hutzpah to chase sheep, and some will kill them. Consider a bell curve. The left bottom is won't chase, the right bottom is will kill. Neither of these make decent companions and/or can do the work.

In the old country, BreederA provided all the shepherds their dogs, and life was good. But then BreederB moved in and his dogs had a bit of an edge, and so BreederA tweaked his line a bit to compete.

But what really happened here? The bell got pushed to the right, and
now there are fewer who won't chase, but more who will kill.

There are 2 bells in show and working lines. While there may not be any cleavage between them, the bells' top are not so rounded as flattened and wider. 

This explanation was spoken to me by a man named Ray, a man who knows DOGS better than most of us can ever hope to. It made sense
to me then, and this thread reminds me of it now. 

In My not so humble Opinion, If we obsess about it pursuing maximum diversion, we might achieve some cleavage between the bells, but it won't actually DO anything good for the breed. Folks that want couch potatoes will still breed them, and folks who want killers who eat handlers will still breed them, and both will continue to spew venom about each other.

Heaven help us all!


----------



## cliffson1

dOg, I am sorry but I really didnot understand your post. I did understand working and Show, I have not a clue where the Killer dogs comes from as something to breed for. I don't know who Ray is and other than the bell curve concept, I wasn't intelligent enough to see the equation. 
I do know the German Shepherd in Word and Picture, by the founder, which I have owned and referred to for 35 years. I do know the German shepherd from having worked, and owned them for 39 years. 
The breed was comprised of dogs with different levels of nerve strength, and that's a given...but the breed was created to work and that's a fact and indisputable. Those that want to breed the working qualities out of the breed are during a disservice to the breed,IMO, based not on my opinion but on what the dog was created for. As the years have gone by and I have witnessed the "curve" go from majority of breed representatives were strong noble dogs, to today where strong noble dogs are in the minority as far as total numbers of dogs. No amount of goobly **** from anyone is going to change history or facts about the breed, what it was, and what it is today. We may be saying the same thing or we may have different views (killer dogs really throws me), I remember a noble dog that EXCELLED in work and will never settle for a lower mantle for this breed. Everybody does not deserve to be able to own a German Shepherd, if it comes at the cost of changing the breed from what it was made for.JMO


----------



## cliffson1

dOg, In reading another post by you I see where you refer to the curve of herding where some dogs won't chase sheep and others will kill them. If this is your reference to killer in your previous post it gives me a little more understanding of a lot more of your post above. Was not being critical just was having a hard time understanding your post. 
Having said that I will say that the German shepherd was created OUT of herding dogs. The instinct to herd (or chase) for this breed should be a primary trait. The curve for dogs that show chasing sheep or herding behavoirs should not be in the end of the spectrum but right smack in the middle and the instinct to Kill the sheep should be at the end of spectrum and very very small. One behavoir(kill the sheep) should be an extreme exception, while the other behavoir should be instinctive and possessed by almost all GS with good breeding. My last 8 or 9 puppies that I have bred or bought, I have taken to an herding instructor that lives ten miles from me and tested them on sheep. Everyone of them have reacted positively to herding instincts when introduced at between 4 and6 months. She marvels that my dogs just turn on when I bring them. Now during this period I have brought to her DDR, DDR/Czech, Czech, and West German workinglines, they have all responded to the sheep positively because they have it instinctively and they have the tools(nerve,drive,temperament) to do so. My point is GS should possess that chase instinct like Labradors possess the swim or retrieve instinct. People who breed dogs that lack this are what will make the curve have dogs at opposite ends. It shouldn't be.JMO And to breed dogs that don't possess this trait to me is as wrong as breeding a dog with grade 4 hips. AJMO


----------



## cliffson1

Also dOg, I am not saying these things to educate you as I am aware you are knowledgable about the breed, just want to point out that people breeding dogs that don't possess fundamental instincts of the breed is one of the ways the breed has lost its way and mantle for work and excellence.


----------



## gagrady

> Originally Posted By: dOg Folks who enjoy working their dogs want dogs that can work. Folks who don't, not so much. It's a huge market, and there is every shape and flavor of dogs to fill the needs, and in our breed, there are as many types as the market will bear.


dOg, totally onboard with market economics - the question I have is, there are plenty of breeds that offer the value props to meet the needs of all segments. In addition, not breeding the GSD to the standard comes at cost - health and temperament at a minimum. If the breeding simply calibrates on the scale of drive as an examples, that's not an issue. But unfortunately that's not true. The dilution of the breed for meeting the market demand just results in a downward spiral because producing flavors is sadly not as simple as weighing something on the scale. Also, meeting the market needs in most cases is nothing more than boosting the egos of consumers who love showing off; one day they get fed up and shelters get overcrowded.

Your point is well taken, I just think that the level of competence and accountability are huge assumptions in your proposal.




> Originally Posted By: dOg As for fondling fathers of the constitution or the breed, these folks had their own agendas and put their pants on one leg at a time, likely never imagined their brand of bs would be so venerated for so long as to take on a life of it's own.


GSD built on the own agendas of the creators of the breed is more than just a proof of concept. It did work like a production line for a while until the objectives were well defined and the line workers knew what they were doing. So...what's the problem?

I am trying to understand your arguments in an objective fashion without getting passionate or biased...just a little slow I guess...


----------



## dOg

Maybe a picture will make it easier. Y-axis is number of dogs.
X-axis is level of drives/aggression/nerves whatever label you put on it. Extreme ends of curves are not good for much, do not comprise a large number of any sampled population, but will always exist.

I'm not saying the market economics is good for the breed, merely pointing out standards and regulations haven't prevented the variances from the definition of what was originally thought to be wonderful, nor will they. As long as what is thought to be wonderful can move, as it does, that bell will slide left and right. 

Is a sliding scale good for the breed? Not hardly, look where it's taken it. Will it ever go away? I seriously doubt it. You have black&red roaches all the rage one day, and squarer sables the next.
Noble aspirations aside, it pretty much follows the money, and that's what fills the shelters...plain and simple:greed. Sell a pup to a clueless host who thinks they want a gsd only to find out it's too much work, or too much time and condemn it to the system of killing floors or no kills, where it can spin like a top if not rescued. It is sad, but it happens everywhere, no matter the registry, the standards, the rules.

Folks quote Max or Jefferson like they knew them, I always find that amusing and quite suspect.


----------



## gagrady

> Originally Posted By: dOg Extreme ends of curves are not good for much, do not comprise a large number of any sampled population, but will always exist.


dOg, consider the following points:

1. If the mean of the distribution is in alignment with the breed standard then, as I understand, many folks would have a very different observation on the tails - much fatter than the ~4% of the standard normal above. So, fundamentally, what you have shown above is the 'desired' scenario rather than the current state.
2. I think more insightful picture will be plotting the underlying traits rather then the manifestation (i.e. independent variables as opposed the dependent shown above). It is near impossible for lack of quantification but what is possible is to look at an approximate timeseries and looking at the trendline. Would you agree that the variance from desired traits will show an exponential? That's what we meant by the spiral (downward) earlier. 
3. Finally, lets say for the sake of argument, we say that the set of desired qualities in the breed has changed due to demand or any other reason, and everybody should respond to that in a supportive manner. In other words, the world is thinking of GSD2.0 - the problem is GSD1.0 doesn't even have the foundation for 2.0. It is going to fail. Nobody is developing a method or separate standard showing the magic recipe to building red and blacks without significant loss on the key components that are not just important for GSDs but any breed that becomes the part of the family. 

I agree with you that it happens everywhere and it is going to happen here as well. The point of this thread is - can a minority direct the GSD producing and consuming population on the right path? On one hand extremely difficult because of the incentive structure, markets but on the other hand - yes, pareto principle.

Guess I am done with creating anymore statistical boredom for you guys. dOg, I think we are on the same page.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: lhczthHow would you separate them? By bloodline? Many workingline dogs have modern showlines in their pedigrees. Can't go by color or the fact that the dogs are working or not working.


Please keep in mind, I am simply raising philosophical questions, I don't presume to have an answer....and I hope my exploration of the options, are not confused with position. 

Having said that, and if separation were the course, then to answer the above thoughts, the first step would be to define "them". For the purposes of an interesting discussion, lets define "them" as, but not limited to; Working Lines, American Lines, West German Show Lines, and White Lines.

So to answer the thoughts above, yes by bloodline. I think most breeders (excluding BYBs) would be able to articulate the type of shepherd they work with. If I asked you, I am confident you would proudly respond, "working lines".

With regard to color, and given our respect to those who love whites, I would also say, conceptually, yes by color. However, I think the spirit of your question was tied to red&black, and conceptually, how would that be managed, and I would tend to agree with where you are heading on that point....so refer back to bloodline.

Under the heading of working or not working, I would suggest that has less to do with separation methods, and more to do with breed worthiness....or in the case of show lines, conformation titles as opposed to working titles. You know there are companion quality dogs produced in a working line litter, just as there are in show line litters. Culling, generally, isn't done in our kinder, gentler, informed society. 



> Originally Posted By: lhczthSeparation is not the answer. If we want to maintain working dogs we must breed working dogs. It is through the dedication of working dog breeders that we will maintain the GSD as a working dog (even if I think we are fighting a losing battle). We don't need another organization. People just need to stand behind the organization that best represents the German Shepherd Dog.


The fact is, there is a significant amount of organizational conflict over the direction of the breed.

The breed types exist, therefore the separation in genetic population exists....but organizationally, we very well may not need working line specific leadership, which gets us back to my question: Where is home for the working line GSD? What organization best represents the German Shepherd Dog?

I personally believe that is USA in North America, however, I would be interested in knowing more about the membership. What is the make-up of working type folks, and Sieger type folks?



> Originally Posted By: lhczthI am off for the day to train dogs.


Seems as the weather held out so I am sure you had an awesome day!!!


----------



## dOg

I think that GSD1.0 could be shuttled to 2.0 by slowly tweaking thru selection.

I do know we took our pets, made them MWDs and fought across the pond successfully, twice...and so have serious doubts we couldn't breed anything we wanted with what we've got right here without importing another single creature.

I don't know the answers, nor do I breed...but I do know what I like when I see it and think in general the rift between show and work is
counter productive and done more harm than good on both sides of the pond. 

It's been good for the Dutch and Belgians though!


----------



## Andaka

I have taken many Amline show dogs to be herding tested by an instructor who prefers a hard German line dog for herding for herself. All of the dogs showed instinct, but some showed more drive than others. I took 8 week old puppies and retired house pets and everything in between. My instructor told me before the first dog that she didn't think the American lines would have any instinct. Much to her surprise he did, and went on to earn several herding titles. While in AKC herding there is no aggression toward a person needed, the dog must still be able to defend himself and his handler from the sheep. Ewes with lambs will charge a dog or handler, and a ram during breeding season can get tough to handle. Tight quarters in barns and pens require a dog with confidence in his abillity to handle the situation. It is great work if you can get it! I miss being able to do some of the things I used to to with my dogs, but my health issues have gotten in the way.


----------



## Doc

Cliff my friend, you are on your own. This has turned into a math lecture complete with standard deviations and bell curves. Mix in the economics of supply and demand and I think I am going to puke. 

Wayne, lets just separate the hail out of all the German shepherds - an organization for white working line GSds, another organization for white show line Gsds, yet another organization for white couch potatoe GSds, and continue creating a different organization for every color, type, creed, religion, nationality, republican, democratic, third party, etc german shepherd we see today and in the future. Oh yeah, don't forget those precious genetic draft German shepherds or the males that have only one desended testicle either, they need an organization also. Then everyone who owns any dog that is determined to be a German shepherd would have their home and be happy. And one day a year, on a given date, at a given time, we can all stand and sing Kum Ba Ya and the show the entire world how united we all are.

"Beam me up Scotty, no sign of intelligent life here".


----------



## cliffson1

Doc, You're right I probably did go to far out there when my message is simple and always has been simple...work/service!
The frustrating part is that time is not on our side to see these people breeding nonfunctional GS end up like the alsation. For eventually some of these types will end up like the alsation,another variation of the German Shepherd steeped in denial and diversity of genetics. Time will tell(smile)....peace1


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocCliff my friend, you are on your own. This has turned into a math lecture complete with standard deviations and bell curves. Mix in the economics of supply and demand and I think I am going to puke.
> 
> Wayne, lets just separate the hail out of all the German shepherds - an organization for white working line GSds, another organization for white show line Gsds, yet another organization for white couch potatoe GSds, and continue creating a different organization for every color, type, creed, religion, nationality, republican, democratic, third party, etc german shepherd we see today and in the future. Oh yeah, don't forget those precious genetic draft German shepherds or the males that have only one desended testicle either, they need an organization also. Then everyone who owns any dog that is determined to be a German shepherd would have their home and be happy. And one day a year, on a given date, at a given time, we can all stand and sing Kum Ba Ya and the show the entire world how united we all are.
> 
> "Beam me up Scotty, no sign of intelligent life here".


If your IQ is such that personal attacks are all you have left to offer in what is for all intent and purpose, a pointless philosophical discussion, you are excused. Clearly your time would be better spent elsewhere. There is a wonderful Panda Shepherd thread on Pedigreedatabase.com that would clearly be a better use of your time.

Kind regards Doc.


----------



## Doc

Wayne,

You seem to have read more into the my post than was intended. There is no personal attack - I merely made an astute suggestion and proposed a solution where everyone could find a home. It was an oversite to forget the beloved Panda shepherd which is as much as German shepherd as a white one.

As usual, you know nothing about me nor my IQ Wayne, which is a blantent personal attack. Just because this is a philosophical discuss - one in which you proposed - I am at liberty to spout off anything I deem as a solution. And heaven forbid a little humor enter this serious "philisophical" thread.

You are like many others in this form, as soon as someone presents another point of view or disagrees, you are the first to yell "personal attack". I should of expected as much from you.

The last time looked, we are in a country that still beleives in freedom of speech. Weather this thread subscribes to this concept is another matter.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocWayne, You seem to have read more into the my post than was intended.





> Originally Posted By: Doc"Beam me up Scotty, no sign of intelligent life here".


I enjoy a good laugh, search my posts, but your sarcasm simply wasn't humorous.



> Originally Posted By: DocWayne, ......You are like many others in this form, as soon as someone presents another point of view or disagrees, you are the first to yell "personal attack". I should of expected as much from you.





> Originally Posted By: Wayne02 _Responding to khawk..... _I will join you in your admission, and pitch my tent in Doc's camp as well. However, I think he is nobler than I in regards to unification. Pragmatically, I fear it is too late. I have entered the GSD drama in what I feel may be the final act. I can only imagine that real GSD enthusiasts, who have had to bear witness for the last several decades, gain no satisfaction in, “I told you so”.


Really Doc?



> Originally Posted By: DocCliff my friend, you are on your own. This has turned into a math lecture complete with standard deviations and bell curves. Mix in the economics of supply and demand and I think I am going to puke.


Follow me Doc, because here is the funny part! dOg, is making your case for you....the one I really don't disagree with.










Math is the pure science. Allow me to dumb-down the data to avoid additional sarcasm or personal attacks from those who may be insecure in their capacity to digest the information.

What dOg is saying is this, separation is pointless....mathematically.

If you consider the statistical population as a whole, and throw-out whites & pandas as anomalous to the sample, then what we're talking about is simply a shift in the overall population. The balance of the population will shift to the left of X mean, say by higher level of influence from the American lines, and to the right of X, by greater influence from working lines in the popluation. At the end of the day, statistically pointless.



> Originally Posted By: dOgI doubt another organization is going to solve anything but suspect their may be room for another. Frankly there are probably too many already.


Pretty funny, how we basically all agree, while at the same time, engaging in the discussion/debate on to itself.

Kind regards Doc.


----------



## Doc

Wayne,
I do not claim to know anything about you - other than drawing my conclusions from your remarks in here. But before you pass judgement on me, my IQ, or my knowledge in statistical analysis, you really should be careful. Like I said before, you know absolutely nothing about me, my profession, my education, my titles, etc.etc. So reserve your comments about general knowledge unless you have some factual information - particularly about me. You are way out of line. Beleive it or not, some people in here may be much more intellegent than you and may possible know more about organizational structure and culture and how it pertains to the German shepherd dog than you. So check your ego at your computer buddy. 

You proposed a philiosophical question. Something about finding a home for working line German shepherds. You listed some organization that had more letters than a can of alphabet soup as a home. Philosphically speaking, I think it is these verious "homes" that have ruined this breed. Therefore, if I am going to be a philosphor, I would suggest to eliminate all "homes" and build a new one. Now if you are under the assumption that there is no hope for unification, I would say, blaze your own trail and find an exsiting organization to park your cause under.

As far as graphs and numbers, anyone can make numbers represent anything they want them to - the dog world is full of people and numbers that misrepresent the truth but is taken as factual. Look no further than the OFA. But that is a discuss for another thread.

I honestly think your "kinds regards" is a misrepresentation of what you really mean Wayne.


----------



## Chris Wild

This is ridiculous. The topic makes it several pages of good discourse without degenerating, and then (as I suppose should have been predicted to happen at some point) suddenly goes downhill out of the blue.

Knock off the sniping at one another, or the thread will be closed and warnings issued.

-Admin


----------



## W.Oliver

Yes, Mame.


----------



## cliffson1

Yo folks, I am supposed to be the "heavy" on the list for my intolerance to the "warm and fuzzy". dOg, I want you to know after I saw the graph I realized you and i are saying the same thing. Glad I offered the caveat about knowing you know your stuff(smile). 
Hey, I enjoy the concept about philosophically dissecting situations for possible solutions. I "honestly" think the breed is getting healthier every year. More and more new people are coming to me from referrals because they don't want "shy" or "excessive angulated" or they have heard that my dogs are like the German Shepherds they grew up with. This is changing for years ago when many people thought that the "angulated dogs were fashionable", and indeed they were...but the method to acheive this fashion statement was going to ultimately lead to weakness of temperament and nerves. But hey, this is also the case with the sport people who have gone excessive in drive(prey), to the point that the dogs often have "more drive than brains". This is wrong also and will also LEAD to temperament and nerve issues if you continue to build on it. And some breeders have. 
My point is that I see the consumer and some breeders recognizing that the middle without compromising the dogs assets are the answer. Dog can't be unmanagable, but dog can't be shy, dog cant be physically incapable of speed power and strength, but dog can't be crippled in hips or elbows. AND, the dog should be noble and courageous, not in peoples eyes but by a standard that should demonstrate the nobility and courage. Folks, I think people are getting there as they basically want this, its more the breeders who are stuck with some of this stock, and want to keep breeding these dogs that are stopping the change from progressing faster. But take look at GSDCA shows these day and you see they are just skeletons of what they were 25 years ago, and look at the obedience, herding, working, and sport trials and they are growing in leaps and bounds. To play in these venues successfully YOU must have a dog that is capable....we're getting there.JMO


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02Regardless of why, the GSD has evolved into two distinct groups, the working line and the show line. Certainly we can subdivide each, West German or Czech/DDR, and West German or American/Canadian, but for sake of discussion, let us focus on the macro, working & show, which is really where the question resides.
> 
> The organizational struggles, amongst the various breed groups, have everything to do with individual interpretation of what characteristics best represent the breed. If we strip away the politics, the struggle is really over unification…one breed. Which translates to one group as correct, and the other incorrect in their respective interpretations of what a GSD is?
> 
> Is it time to stop fighting for unification, and settle into separation? If so, who best represents the Working Shepherd Dog? Is that the RSV2000 and USA? Who best represents the Show Shepherd Dog? Is that the SV and GSDCA?
> 
> Is the next fight over who gets to retain the “German Shepherd Dog” name, almost as if it were a brand?


This thread has a feel that everyone recognizes the struggles between GSD breed organizations.

Folks seem to acknowledge the differences in the lines.

Of the posters here, the predominate theme is GSDs should perform work or service to keep the spirit of what Max von Stephanitz had intended. 

.....and, a pretty common view is that what the world does not need, is another organization.

I still believe the separation exists pragmatically.....unless someone can point out a breeding program where someone is back breeding working lines into American lines, or some other example of this?



> Originally Posted By: lhczthMany workingline dogs have modern showlines in their pedigrees.


Lisa,

Why is that? Is it from a historical sense, in that several generations back, the delineation was less pronounced as it is today? Are there breeding programs somewhere, where this practice is employed today? What would the reasoning be? Obviously, when selecting a pairing, a breeder is looking for complementary characteristics between male & female....so what would the modern motivation be to cross lines?


----------



## dOg

> Quote:
> I still believe the separation exists pragmatically.....unless someone can point out a breeding program where someone is back breeding working lines into American lines, or some other example of this?


Uhm, I can think of 2...
YOUR dog, Dayna, and my Hugo!


----------



## W.Oliver

Dayna is a fluke, Gail's program is not focused with that approach as its foundation.....she breeds red&black show lines.....there just happened to be a bitch from Nick Blackford's kennel that a local cop owned/trained, and wanted to breed. On some level, despite my ignorance, I got lucky. If I had it to do all over again, and setting aside the fact that I love my show line GSD dearly, I would have selected a working line dog.

I am but a student of the GSD.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1Yo folks, I am supposed to be the "heavy" on the list for my intolerance to the "warm and fuzzy". dOg, I want you to know after I saw the graph I realized you and i are saying the same thing. Glad I offered the caveat about knowing you know your stuff(smile).
> Hey, I enjoy the concept about philosophically dissecting situations for possible solutions. I "honestly" think the breed is getting healthier every year. More and more new people are coming to me from referrals because they don't want "shy" or "excessive angulated" or they have heard that my dogs are like the German Shepherds they grew up with. This is changing for years ago when many people thought that the "angulated dogs were fashionable", and indeed they were...but the method to acheive this fashion statement was going to ultimately lead to weakness of temperament and nerves. But hey, this is also the case with the sport people who have gone excessive in drive(prey), to the point that the dogs often have "more drive than brains". This is wrong also and will also LEAD to temperament and nerve issues if you continue to build on it. And some breeders have.
> My point is that I see the consumer and some breeders recognizing that the middle without compromising the dogs assets are the answer. Dog can't be unmanagable, but dog can't be shy, dog cant be physically incapable of speed power and strength, but dog can't be crippled in hips or elbows. AND, the dog should be noble and courageous, not in peoples eyes but by a standard that should demonstrate the nobility and courage. Folks, I think people are getting there as they basically want this, its more the breeders who are stuck with some of this stock, and want to keep breeding these dogs that are stopping the change from progressing faster. But take look at GSDCA shows these day and you see they are just skeletons of what they were 25 years ago, and look at the obedience, herding, working, and sport trials and they are growing in leaps and bounds. To play in these venues successfully YOU must have a dog that is capable....we're getting there.JMO


Well said......


----------



## dOg

But Gail's dogs all can and do work...
There are show line breeders who are producing good dogs who can work, and there are working line breeders who stay within the standard, thus produce dogs who work and can be shown in conformation.
And there are some who blend lines on purpose trying to get the best of both worlds in their progeny.

This is why I am hopeful that over time, the organizations can unite, and the breed can be all that it can be once more.


----------



## Vandal

I was going to say something similar to what Cliff did in that I do not talk to too many people who are looking for a dog with bad nerves or a dog that will drive them crazy etc. I think most people DO want a GSD like they knew when they were kids. Mostly, those were dogs that displayed definite GSD characteristics. 
I think the main thing is, people like black and tan/red dogs with the traditional saddle because that is also what they had as kids. That is why they are attracted to show dogs. They like the color and may even know a little about SchH, so, when they are told those dogs have working titles, they are sold. There are far fewer people who prefer sables, solid blacks or bi color dogs. So, it is really rather simple why the breed is suffering because people breeding less than suitable dogs in temperament have the color that is preferred by the general public. 
The other thing is. Most people don’t CARE if their dog can “work”. They have not quite made the connection between working traits and dogs that make good companions. The sellers of both types of dogs are doing a good job of convincing the general public that a dog with proper GSD drive and temperament is not suited for that. IMO, nothing is further from the truth but it does have to be a dog that has more brains than drive….meaning it is really a GSD and not simply a sport dog or a facsimile of a GSD..
Also, I hear people constantly recommending show lines to people who want a low drive dog. I can honestly say that I have never done that. Don’t get a GSD, that should be the answer IMO. Why people who supposedly believe in what a GSD should be, advise the general public to get one that is not , is simply beyond me. Are all the things these people say about what GSDs are supposed to be just spin to sell dogs or do you really believe it? 
There are organizations that operate the same way. They give lip service to the dogs but when you watch their events and what is allowed to go on there, you realize what is really important and it is NOT the character of the dogs. I am a member of one organization, ( I tried the alternative for a short while), and while most of the time, I do not like the way they “manage” the club, mostly, the way the trials are conducted are more in line with the way I think they should be done.
I have learned that changing the mentality of people is mostly impossible. Only those people can make the choice to see things differently and usually a big event must take place to get them to do that. So, I won’t be joining any clubs with the idea that I am going to be able to enlighten the "un-enlighten able". I will stick with what is mostly working and where I see the actions more in line with the words.


----------



## Doc

Very well stated Anne.


----------



## cliffson1

Anne, Your point about the consumer desire for the black and red/tan is right on point. Many people see this look as the symbol of the Rin Tin Tin, or Run Joe Run, or for the really oldtimers, Strongheart.


----------



## W.Oliver

For me it was a dog named Pacer....a one-eyed black & tan that had been wounded in Vietnam with his crazy Army veteran handler, Wendell.

I grew-up on the Huron River in Michigan, and the best fishing spot for 10 miles up or down river was on Wendell's property. Pacer spent his days running-off trespassers. Me, a local 10 year-old kid from a half mile down river, I was OK in Wendell's eyes, and had permission to fish the good spot. So Pacer and I spent many an afternoon pulling out Crappie after Crappie. Since I wasn't allowed to have a dog, Welldell said it was OK if I acted like Pacer was mine. So the rest of that summer, I enjoyed settin' him on the random trespassers....it was good sport, and I kept the fishin' hole to myself.


----------



## zyppi

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1The demand for working GS is there, ask Homeland Security, ask Police depts., and ask military overseas. Yet you are just as apt to see a malinois then a GS at the job the GS made famous. No its not a lack of demand, its people breeding for everything(money, show, sport, color, longcoats, etc) but what the founder said we should breed for....WORK!!!!!


Haven't read the whole thread, but Mal's are also cheaper! Seriously..


----------



## Ruthie

So, I have been watching this thread since my earlier mostly emotionally motivated post. That experience has made me very passionate about this subject. After catching up tonight I have a few comments.

I consider myself a complete novice and would not presume to insinuate that my level of knowledge is even 1/100th of most who have chimed in on this post. However, I think the value that I can add to this discussion is the aforementioned passion and the fresh perspective of someone who has not been entrenched in this topic for 20 – 30 years. As many have reference organizational change, one of the biggest enablers of change is the challenges of old ways by new team members. So, from that perspective I would like to offer a few challenges to the thoughts presented here. I do not support or reject the ideas insinuated by these questions.

•	I see many comments about Max this and Max that. What Max wanted… Why does it matter? Max’s plan for the breed was based on the needs and culture of that day. It is a different time. The role of a canine is different in this world than in his.
•	If there is a demand for the different types of GSD doesn’t that show that there is a USE for each type?
•	To quote Anne...“Most people don’t CARE if their dog can ‘work’. They have not quite made the connection between working traits and dogs that make good companions.” How are people supposed to know? Wouldn’t that be the main responsibility of an organization such as Wayne suggested? 




> Quote: I think the main thing is, people like black and tan/red dogs with the traditional saddle because that is also what they had as kids. That is why they are attracted to show dogs. They like the color and may even know a little about SchH, so, when they are told those dogs have working titles, they are sold. There are far fewer people who prefer sables, solid blacks or bi color dogs. So, it is really rather simple why the breed is suffering because people breeding less than suitable dogs in temperament have the color that is preferred by the general public.


I would also like to share my perspective on this comment. As Anne mentioned, many people just want saddle backs because that is what they know. That was me! I wanted a saddle back because that was what my beloved Gator was. He was undoubtedly a BYB dog, but had a “correct” temperament and I loved him dearly for it. We visited 2 different breeders of show lines and didn’t see that “spark” that Gator had, but figured that maybe it was because he was a male and younger… Frankly, I was scared to death of a working line dog because of all the crazy comments that people make about their working dogs, even on this board. The picture that I got was that they would have to be exercised 24/7, would constantly try to dominate me, and would be on the verge of biting at any moment. Frankly even with the experience of training 3 dogs from puppies, I didn’t think I could handle one. Lucky for us, this board connected us with people like Chris Wild and Trish Campbell who took the time to explain working dogs and show us that is really what we were looking for after all. Now I have my awesome Bison who has lived as a wonderful pet and companion for 3.5 years before starting SchH. Now, with very little training can still bite a sleeve with a good full bite and stand up to stick hits without a flinch.

So, my final question is how we get the Chrises and Trishes of the world, the working line hobby breeders who take the time to educate people, in touch with people like me. Those who love the breed but don’t know what the heck they are looking for. IMHO THAT is going to be the salvation of the breed.

And finally, Wayne, I love the fishing story, and thank you for the dumbed down statistical review. Stats have never been my strong point, so I finally “got it” after your explanation.


----------



## Ruthie

Oh, and BTW, Bison is a sable, so now my next dog will have to be a sable. LOL!


----------



## Vandal

> Quote:If there is a demand for the different types of GSD doesn’t that show that there is a USE for each type?



Here is a comment that I have heard repeatedly. The GSD is known for being the most versatile of all breeds. However, that versatility should exist in ONE dog. It is not a case where there should be different types to achieve that versatility. This is the problem with how people want to interpret things to fit what it is they are doing as breeders. As breeders of GSDs you should be attempting to breed dogs that can do everything a GSD is known to be able to do. Will you always be successful? No, but you should sure be trying. I hear this also where people say that a litter of pups will have some that can do this and some that can do that. That is not versatility either. Maybe one can do a certain task a bit better than his brother but the brother should be capable of doing that task as well. 
The German Shepherd is not the best at anything but should be capable of doing just about everything. That has been replaced by all the groups of specialists that now exist with breeders claiming their stake in this supposed versatility.


----------



## cliffson1

Anne, You beat me to it. Correctomundo!! People should be breeding versatile dogs NOT dogs capable of only limited use; And especially if that use is generated by an uninformed consumer desire. In the words of the Beatles...Let it Be, Let it BE, Leave it alone and Let it be!!(What it is supposed to be!!)


----------



## W.Oliver

Here we are back to human nature, where individual interpretation has resulted in the GSD types....in the face of the ideal, versatility in one dog.

This has been somewhat of a spiral discussion. We recongize that unification is unlikely, while at the same time, the working line folks who have posted here are unwilling to entertain separation.

Stalemate.

The onus to protect and preserve the working line is, as it always has been, on the informed breeder who is true to the vision of Max von Stephanitz.


----------



## Doc

"Protect and Perserve the working line" ...

First let me say that not everyone accepts the statement that "unification is unlikely". Your generalization may apply to a majority of people that posted in this forum, but I dare say there are other folks involved in German shepherds that may not have the same opinion.

And I agree, the working aspect of German shepherds is important and should not be overlooked; however, I think the term "working" has to include activities other than just SchH. 

I also contend that a German shepherd should exhibit working qualities but should also reflect the Standard - i.e. the "show" characteristics and also include a "health" aspect i.e. EPI, DJD, Cancer, Bloat, etc. etc.

By including all the above mentioned, I would contend that these German shepherd dogs would reflect the true vision of Max von Stephanitz. 

IMHO, that's not too idealistic at all. Why be happy shooting at street lights when you can shot for the stars?


----------



## Ruthie

So what about the issue of education? Anyone want to address that one? It sounds like most who have posted agree that the working line more embody the traits that a GSD should have. How is a person new to the breed supposed to know that? Who is promoting this type of GSD?

One of the breeders of American show lines that we visited tried to convince us that we could not handle one of her pups. It had very little drive and was even a little skittish. She told us that there would be NO WAY we could handle a working line dog. 

When we ended up at Triton kennels, we asked Trish at least three times if we could really handle Bison and give him a good home. She explained to us the same thing that you did in your post, Anne. We have been very happy with Bison.

So, I think we got lucky. But, the general public just doesn't know. Any time we take Bison out in public people love him but inevitably ask what breed he is. They don't believe he is a pure bred GSD. Most people I have met who have working lines previously owned a pet or show line and moved to a working line because of their experiences with them.

From a marketing perspective... The hobby breeders who do care that the GSD is bred for versatility don't have a very loud voice alone. Who is promoting their "brand"?

Look at the places where people like me go to get information... Book stores, pet expos, and yes even the dreaded pet store. There is little to no presence of the working lines in those venues...at least not in the Metro Detroit area.


----------



## Doc

Well Ruthie,

Like the farmers of Wurttemberg, the breeders of the versitile German shepherd have been shunned by the extremist, ruling party, judges and organizations. I would submit that a versitile German shepherd, just as Anne has posted, isn't great at anything, but good at a lot of things. Because the focus has shifted to "a show dog has to be like this .... and a working line dog must be like ....." a versitile dog is rarely seen, shown or awarded. 

As I have posted, the current German shepherd organizations have contributed to the extremism found in the breed today. Who is promoting their brand? - Unfortunately no one.


----------



## Liesje

I disagree, I think the GSD is GREAT at a lot of things!


----------



## Vandal

First of all, that was not exactly what I said about versatility. The word great was not used by me.

As for being educated. I think the responsibility for that lies mostly with the buyer. I sat here thinking about how I learned and realized that no one was there ready to answer my questions. Mostly, people watched me making mistakes until I decided I wanted to learn and know as much as they did. There is a lot to be said for good teachers but unless you are a good student, you won't learn much. 
I trained with clubs in SchH for years. I was always very willing to share with people what I knew and would never refuse to answer any questions they had about the training. However, there were only a few who were really open to learning. Most had made up their mind about things and were rather resistant to different ideas. If people can’t grasp what you say right off the bat, they seem to not want to believe it. Everyone has had a different experience and they base what they want to hear on that. Like I said before, it is almost impossible to change someone's mentality about a subject, that is up to them to open up to other ways of looking at things and many people are simply not capable of that. I have learned to recognize these types of people after a few minutes of conversing and I will generally stop talking at that point because it is a waste of everyone’s time.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> As I have posted, the current German shepherd organizations have contributed to the extremism found in the breed today. Who is promoting their brand? - Unfortunately no one.


So, isn't THAT what we should be discussing? Look at groups like the California Milk Producers board. When faced with a 15 year decline in the consumption of milk, California milk producers banded together to get their message out. Ever heard of "Got milk"? One of those dairy farmers couldn't make much of a difference by themselves, but the group sure has.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: VandalFirst of all, that was not exactly what I said about versatility. The word great was not used by me.
> 
> As for being educated. I think the responsibility for that lies mostly with the buyer. I sat here thinking about how I learned and realized that no one was there ready to answer my questions. Mostly, people watched me making mistakes until I decided I wanted to learn and know as much as they did. There is a lot to be said for good teachers but unless you are a good student, you won't learn much.
> I trained with clubs in SchH for years. I was always very willing to share with people what I knew and would never refuse to answer any questions they had about the training. However, there were only a few who were really open to learning. Most had made up their mind about things and were rather resistant to different ideas. If people can’t grasp what you say right off the bat, they seem to not want to believe it. Everyone has had a different experience and they base what they want to hear on that. Like I said before, it is almost impossible to change someone's mentality about a subject, that is up to them to open up to other ways of looking at things and many people are simply not capable of that. I have learned to recognize these types of people after a few minutes of conversing and I will generally stop talking at that point because it is a waste of everyone’s time.


I completely get what you are saying. I agree that a responsible dog owner does try to find out everything that they can before making a decision. What I am saying is that the information is not readily available to the general public. I had been involved in the "dog world" for almost 10 years before we went shopping for our first GSD and even owned a rescued GSD and I had never even heard of SchH or working line GSDs. The only reason that we ended up with Bison is because my husband is a data head and did a TON of internet research. The typical person is not going to do that.


----------



## Vandal

> Quote:The only reason that we ended up with Bison is because my husband is a data head and did a TON of internet research. The typical person is not going to do that.


You seem to be contradicting yourself just a little here. There is information out there, you just have to look for it and decide what is BS and what is not.
Also, the "typical person" should not own a GSD, in my opinion.


----------



## Vandal

I will add this to get back a little bit to the topic. It is not really up to the organization to educate you. It is up to the organization to state what it is they are organized to accomplish and up to you to decide if your goals are the same. Then you should go watch how the clubs, people and judges who are a part of that organization conduct themselves and decide if you fit in there. Like I said before, there is only one that comes close for me and that is where I will be. In spite of the personalities that seem to dominate, there are principles that still exist that matter to me.


----------



## Doc

Anne, I am sorry I misquoted you. I agree with you when you say, 

"The German Shepherd is not the best at anything but should be capable of doing just about everything".

Ruthie - there are some of us that try to spread the word but most people see the world through their own lenses. I referred to a term earlier "perspective transformation" which will have to take place within an individual in order for them to understand the versatility of the German shepherd. Unfortunately, getting someone to listen to a very different point of view isn't always easy or comfortable - particularly in adults - so it is not done.


----------



## Liesje

Doc I'm not clear on what you mean. What exactly is it that GSDs should be doing but NOT be great at? Can you give some examples of how you use this philosophy with your dogs? I guess I don't understand why our breed would not be great at things.... maybe not bird hunting or ratting, but police work, service work, bomb and narc detection, SchH, personal protection, agility, herding, SAR, HRD....I think GSDs are absolutely great at these things and there's no reason to sell them short.


----------



## Doc

Lies, I think we are actually on the same page on this one. As Anne said, a GSD should be able to"do everything a GSD is known to be able to do".

I am under the mindset that some of the things a GSD is know to be able to do has been lost/looked over, when breeders emphasis one trait at the expense of another.

In the grand scheme of things, a single GS dog should be able to do everything a GSD is known to do. And come to think of it, I think I have seen GGSds used as bird dogs (retrievers) - LOL.

On a personal note, I just think the word "great" is not one I would use to describe the traits of the GSD. I would be more comfortable using words such as "very good at", "extremely good at". Just semantics Lies. If I understand how you use the word "great", I would agree with you 100% this time! (Lies, did we just agree on something??????? LOL. If we did, it should be noted and recorded!!







).


----------



## lhczth

> Originally Posted By: VandalI will add this to get back a little bit to the topic. It is not really up to the organization to educate you. It is up to the organization to state what it is they are organized to accomplish and up to you to decide if your goals are the same. Then you should go watch how the clubs, people and judges who are a part of that organization conduct themselves and decide if you fit in there. Like I said before, there is only one that comes close for me and that is where I will be. In spite of the personalities that seem to dominate, there are principles that still exist that matter to me.


Excellent point, Anne, and I agree.


----------



## Liesje

What I meant (and hopefully we do agree) is that IMO either there are no better breeds, or the GSD can be equally as good as other breeds on top, at those things (and more) that I listed off hand. That's what I mean by "great". 

But I also agree with what I think cliff said earlier (or maybe in another thread...I think it was cliff...) about there being some activities that already encompass many of the traits needed to do others. What breeder out there is actively doing ALL those things with their breeding stock? But there are many, many great breeders who, say, focus on SchH and have puppies that are police K9s, SAR, SchH, agility, service dogs, therapy dogs, etc from the same litters or parents.


----------



## trudy

_It sounds like most who have posted agree that the working line more embody the traits that a GSD should have. _

I disagree with this statement, there are many here who think other lines are better representatives of the breed. I refuse to put down other lines of dogs, each of us prefer a different 'look' and that is why we date, etc different people. No one should put down another's tastes, so what if I prefer black and tan/red saddlebacks? I don't prefer the looks of the working line finding them to look too much like Mal's on steroids. That is my opinion, I have met some I like and some I don't but the same with both showline types and BYB types. I think we should concern ourselves with health first, temperment a close second and I know there are both these problems in all lines. WE should quit nit picking over looks, drives etc and start paying attention to health and breeding only extremely healthy lines. Then temperment and not all high drive is correct. 

Remember Schutzhund was a test but the herding was first. 

Please read this info:

http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/herding.htm

That is what I personally feel is correct temperment. Now bring back health and stability


----------



## Liesje

I'm fine w/ herding but there is a HUGE spectrum there. I like the HGH programs where the dogs are really working, sometimes with 1000 or more sheep, and also are tested in protection. I'm just not convinced that a dog has what it takes when the owners are taking them to a "herding lesson" once every two weeks and the dog is circling half a dozen sheep in a small enclosed pen.

As for temperament vs. health, I'd rather have a dog with mild HD and a great temperament than a perfectly healthy couch potato or nervebag.


----------



## Catu

Trudy. You are contradicting yourself. You say we should concentrate on health and temperament, yet you like the lines you like and do not like working lines based on "looks".

Nobody in this thread as ever mentioned how the GSD should look.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:The only reason that we ended up with Bison is because my husband is a data head and did a TON of internet research. The typical person is not going to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> You seem to be contradicting yourself just a little here. There is information out there, you just have to look for it and decide what is BS and what is not.
> Also, the "typical person" should not own a GSD, in my opinion.
Click to expand...

No, it wasn’t a contradiction. Maybe I just didn’t explain myself clearly. Let me try this…

At work, I use an instinct test called Kolbe. (I am not going to go into detail, if any one wants more info http://www.kolbe.com ) This is the best way I know how to describe what I am talking about. The results show how a person solves problems. One component is a persons need for facts. On a 1 – 10 scale, my husband is an 8. He is driven by a need for facts when solving a problem. I am a 5.

If he had not done he 8 level of research, we wouldn’t have ended up with the dog that we did.

I completely agree that GSDs aren’t for everyone, but I don’t think that working line GSDs are only for people who are fact finders.


----------



## Castlemaid

And for those that argue that there is a place for the breeding of soft and low-drive pets and show dogs, because people like the "look" of a Geman Shepherd, I'll argue that in that case, you don't want a German Shepherd, you want a German Shepherd Ornament! 

That is like saying that you want a horse because you like how horses look, but you don't want one that needs a 10 acre field, a lot of training, daily exercise, tons of hay, and preferably will not poop manure to have to constantly clean up, and you don't even care if the horse can be ridden or if it can pull a wagon or cart, because you don't ride nor do you have a wagon that needs pulling. You just like the way horses look, and you have always enjoyed the Black Stallion books as a kid, so now you want one too. 

So would that justify horse breeders breeding pretty horses that are physically and mentally too unsound to be used as riding or driving (pulling) animals? Of course not, and it is very unrealistic for people to expect a working draft/riding horse to be brought down to "pretty to look at" for their own convenience.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: lhczth
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: VandalI will add this to get back a little bit to the topic. It is not really up to the organization to educate you. It is up to the organization to state what it is they are organized to accomplish and up to you to decide if your goals are the same. Then you should go watch how the clubs, people and judges who are a part of that organization conduct themselves and decide if you fit in there. Like I said before, there is only one that comes close for me and that is where I will be. In spite of the personalities that seem to dominate, there are principles that still exist that matter to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent point, Anne, and I agree.
Click to expand...

So who's responsibility is it? The AKC does a lot to educate people about dogs and dog ownership. So, they should not be doing that?

This response is a little frustrating for me. In my short 3 months of being involved in SchH and frequenting this board, what I see is that those with the most experience and knowledge of what the breed should be often have little or no patience for those who do not. Some have even stated that they delight in exposing the ignorance of others. Well duh! People ask questions BECAUSE they are ignorant.

Our newest club member visited several clubs before coming to ours and was amazed that, one, novices were accepted, and two people in the club took the time to help new people. IMO it is a tragedy that this is a rarity, and this is why we will continue to see a decline.

Those who have a ton of knowledge and are passionate about saving the breed have a RESPONSIBILITY to pass that knowledge on to others.

I don't think that Wayne is too far off with his idea to organize.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: trudy_It sounds like most who have posted agree that the working line more embody the traits that a GSD should have. _
> 
> I disagree with this statement, there are many here who think other lines are better representatives of the breed. I refuse to put down other lines of dogs, each of us prefer a different 'look' and that is why we date, etc different people. No one should put down another's tastes, so what if I prefer black and tan/red saddlebacks? I don't prefer the looks of the working line finding them to look too much like Mal's on steroids. That is my opinion, I have met some I like and some I don't but the same with both showline types and BYB types. I think we should concern ourselves with health first, temperment a close second and I know there are both these problems in all lines. WE should quit nit picking over looks, drives etc and start paying attention to health and breeding only extremely healthy lines. Then temperment and not all high drive is correct.
> 
> Remember Schutzhund was a test but the herding was first.
> 
> Please read this info:
> 
> http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/herding.htm
> 
> That is what I personally feel is correct temperment. Now bring back health and stability


With this statement, I was referring specifically to this thread. It was not to alienate those who feel differently just to narrow the focus for perspective on my comment. In fact, the whole point to the discussion was that we all recognize that there IS a difference in opionion, and Wayne posed the question on how to further the Working line. Hence, the discussion about working lines.


----------



## cliffson1

There are many things I am ignorant of and in those instances I understand my limitations and listen to try to learn. I do not ASSERT my opinions for fear of my ignorance being exposed. I may offer my opinion in hopes of corroboration or more information to educate myself. Most importantly, when I am a novice in a field I am open minded to new information. 
The German Shepherds was a dog created for utility purposes OUT of herding dogs. Herding is of course one of the utility purposes but if you do your research you will find the earliest German Shepherds were used for other purposes also.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1
> The German Shepherds was a dog created for utility purposes OUT of herding dogs. Herding is of course one of the utility purposes but if you do your research you will find the earliest German Shepherds were used for other purposes also.


Please explain more.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: Vandal Also, the "typical person" should not own a GSD, in my opinion.


I have owned/trained GSDs for over 13 years now, and by no means do I consider myself an expert...on the contrary, it is just now that I becoming aware of what a GSD is, and how the GSD as a breed is organizationally managed. Having said that, when 99% of the people who approach me about GSDs ask about puppies, I suggest a Lab or Golden. People who own a GSD, must want to own a GSD.

A bit off topic, but in the same spirit....I witnessed lure coursing for the first time this year at the UKC Premier. It was amazing and a shear delight to watch. Whippets, Grey Hounds, and guess what, working line GSDs. For a few bucks, they allowed us to run the GSDs and it was a hoot! Point is this....after that experience, I cannot imagine owning a sight hound and not participating in lure coursing...it is meant to be. I cannot image owning a GSD and not performing some type of work or service....simply wouldn't be right. Therefore, I believe they are not for every pet owner.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Ruthie
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1
> The German Shepherds was a dog created for utility purposes OUT of herding dogs. Herding is of course one of the utility purposes but if you do your research you will find the earliest German Shepherds were used for other purposes also.
> 
> 
> 
> Please explain more.
Click to expand...

The whole driving force behind the creation of the breed was the industrialization of Europe paving over the traditional pastoral lifestyle. Those who loved and appreciated the herding dogs of Germany and their heritage didn't want to see them go the way of the Dodo as this happened.

So they created the German Shepherd Dog.

The breed was created from primarily herding dogs to be an all around working dog. This was a way to preserve the dogs they treasured, but bring them into the modern age by creating a dog capable of much more than herding and that would be useful in an industrialized world. They knew there would be very little need for true herding dogs as history moved forward. But there would always be a need for dogs to serve the police and military, dogs to serve in a variety of guide/service roles, dogs to perform search work of varoius types. That was the whole reason the GSD came about in the first place.

While herding is a significant portion of the breed's heritage, and it was an appreciation of herding dogs that led to it's formation in the first place, the GSD was not created to BE a herding dog. That is but one, as predicted now small, role the breed can fulfill.


----------



## Raziel

Vandal said:


> Quote:.
> Also, the "typical person" should not own a GSD, in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain this?
Click to expand...


----------



## Doc

I would content that the purpose of creating a German shepherd, in the Nazi spirit, was to show the world that the Germans could do anything they wanted to i.e. create a National dog that reflects the importance of the Germans - power, stability, nerves, aloof, domination, etc. I think one needs to understand the Germany during Hitlers time. The Nazi's were all about being the superior race and their ability to do, manipulate, and create, anything they wanted to. In other words, Max (an officer in the military) had political motivation also in mind when he "created" the German Shepherd dog.

Max did recognize the versatility of the dog - and transitioned it more to a police/military guard dog. However, he bred to the Wurttemberg lines to increase size, get better nerves and their working (herding) ability. And again in 1929 or 1930, when the German shepherd proper strayed too far from the herding ability, he named a dog Champion in order to increase the working (ability) in its progeny.


----------



## W.Oliver

Did you really have to take us there? So far as I recall the history of our breed, it was established when Adolf was a 10 year old boy.

Lets not go here Doc, I would much rather endure your sarcasm.


----------



## Doc

It's just the historical facts Wayne. But I will refrain from the history lessons and I am sorry if it offended anyone. But to say the German shepherd was "created" because of the industrial revolution in Europe??? Give me a break.

Wayne, I glade to know that after 13 years , you are still a student of the German shepherd. Just remember to read out of more than one book. You'll be much more knowledgeable about this breed if you do.

The key to education as an adult is "perspective transformation". It is expounded upon by Mezirow should you want to study it.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocThe key to education as an adult is "perspective transformation". It is expounded upon by Mezirow should you want to study it.


....and let me guess, since you feel my thinking is less than autonomous, you'll fill the authority role and explain to me what the sum of my experience should mean? The dilemma resolution is upon us, in that our breed has been weakened, and according to theory, shouldn't you experience a paradigm shift? Unless you're still in the grieving phase and clinging to denial? i.e. resisting change. The counter thought to the theory is to step away from ego as the driver and embrace logic.


----------



## Chris Wild

Let's see... 
The SV was founded in 1899.
The Nazi party in 1919, though it didn't rise out of obscurity until the early 30s.
To say the creation of the GSD was some Nazi experiment or conspiracy is ludicrous.

Was there some "superior race" thought behind it's creation? Sure, and Max's own writings could easily be consider nazi-like if someone wanted to go there. However this way of thinking was quite widespread throughout the world, Europe especially, in the late Victorian era, and pervades countless other cultures and times in history as well. Far from unique.

And the fact is that the same can be said for every breed, regardless of where in the world or what century it hails from. That is how breeds get created in the first place. Because one person, or group of people, feel they can create a "superior race", a new breed, that is better at something than one currently in existence.

Hardly a new idea, or restricted to any perceived German mindset or period in history. Talk to some bedouins about their "superior race" of Arabian horses tracing back thousands of years. Or some Scottish farmer about his Highland cattle. Or whoever created those creepy hairless cats. And you'd hear the same sort of attitude. If they didn't have it, they'd have not created, or preserved, their breed in the first place.


----------



## Samba

How can we unify? Does someone have to die? The people who like their disparate types don't seem like the kind to meet in the middle.

I think I am a bit of an elitist. This approach may not be good for the preservation of important characteristics in the breed, I don't know. 

I have recently seen more moderate type and more working line dogs at the venues I go to. I have had an increasing number of requests for assistance in finding a GSD for people. 

There is a lot of information out there to be had. The internet has opened education. In a lot of ways, I have the sorta silly thought that when the owner is ready.....they will find the dog. I mean there are already a lot of folks that own "GSDs" that shouldn't or don't want to own GSDs.

The RSV2000 aims at preservation? How do they intend to approach this? What methodologies do they employ?


----------



## W.Oliver

The extremes present in the GSD population, and the differences in perspective/interpretation of the GSD standard, makes unification unlikely.

The RSV2000 is an organization that was started by a group in Germany who felt the SV had strayed too far from the spirit of what a working GSD should be.....refer to the thread "The Fat Lady has begun to sing" and you can see a video of SV red&blacks "working". You can also get a solid feel for what working dog people think of "them". The same attitude exists in Germany, but there, this group, RSV2000, has decided to break away and do their own thing specific to working line GSDs.

Their philosophy: The preservation of the German Shepherd and its genetic resources as a working dog is part of the maintenance of cultural heritage. The aim of the Schäferhundverein RSV2000 eV is, therefore, the discipline of a German healthy, high usage Shepherd. 

I have been a member for almost two years now...not that I can participate at this point in the organizations development, but I feel by supporting them financially, I am supporting the preservation of the working line GSD. Who knows, maybe someday the organization will spread to North America? I am also a USA and SDA member.


----------



## Doc

Chris,you have your history that you are comfotable with, I've got mine based on talking with people who experienced Germany before during and after two world wars. Their personal history is no more ludacris than your notion that the industrial revolution changed the German shepherd. If you remember or would read historical records of WWI you will see very large German shepherds being used as messingers and first aid dogs as well as patrol dogs. I seriously doubt these dogs were a resiult of a factory being built in the farm land. I don't care if agree with me or not, but your point of view is full of your own history.

Nazism in Germany was throughtout the country long before it became an organized political party. So to say it rose from obsurity in the 1930's is a misnomer. And to think that the military during Max's time didn't have the "superior race" notion guiding them is also a weak argument. Next thing you will tell me is that Germany didn't want to rule the world.

Wayne, we are well aware of your mindset that unification is unlikely. I'm not sure you need to keep repeating it. Maybe you and all the rest that feel that way should get together and find a home. I'm just wondering why you are so anti home for the true German shepherd?


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Doc I'm just wondering why you are so anti home for the true German shepherd?


You mean anti home for the Doc German Shepherd?


----------



## Doc

No Lies, the German shepherd that you I agreed on earlier. Doc doesn't need an organization imposing their uneducated will upon me or my dogs. Remember Lies, I'm old - and been around German shepherds longer than some folks in here have been alive. I can't help it if I think the dogs of old were better dogs than the ones today. Beleive it or not, there are others - not many in this forum - that also have the same feelings as me.

I really am not surprised that Wayne doesn't appreciate my knowledge or articulation about German shepherds. Nor Chris for that matter. Afterall, they both train in the same club - birds of a feather do flock together - and like the same type of dog. It's hard to grasp something different when you surround yourself with animals and people who think the same way you do.

Lies, you did give me an idea - how about joining my organization and supporting my line of German shepherds? The Doc strain of the German shepherd dog. I'm not kennel blind, but I swear one of my dogs can walk on water. But that doesn't make him a workiing dog or a good show dog. He's just a Doc dawg.


----------



## Liesje

Doc, I need to see some actual examples before getting on board... at least Wayne and Chris are transparent with regard to their dogs and what they have accomplished...

Can you give some examples of _current_ dogs that fit your standards?


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: Doc I can't help it if I think the dogs of old were better dogs than the ones today. Beleive it or not, there are others - not many in this forum - that also have the same feelings as me.


I don't recall anyone disagreeing with this in this thread. I am thinking that your defensiveness is a little misplaced.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Doc I can't help it if I think the dogs of old were better dogs than the ones today. Beleive it or not, there are others - not many in this forum - that also have the same feelings as me.


Oh I can believe it and agree as much as I can (having not been alive let alone training dogs), but I tend to give it more weight when it comes from someone who is not only talking the talk, but walking the walk.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocWayne, we are well aware of your mindset that unification is unlikely. I'm not sure you need to keep repeating it. Maybe you and all the rest that feel that way should get together and find a home. I'm just wondering why you are so anti home for the true German shepherd?


Thats it? You're going to simply ding me for answering Samba's questions? I assume then, we are done with statistics and psychological theory? I trust my response was prompt enough that your comfortable it was extemporaneous?

Although I truly enjoy the intellectual sparring with you, shall we focus on the positives...the common ground we share?

I feel the common ground is the true GSD, and the resounding theme for our dog is work or service. Please tell me, and the other readers of course, the activities you pursue with your charges. Me, personally, train in SchH and SDA, as well as CGC type training where we visit my mother-in-law several times a week at the nursing home. Over the months, there are severl folks that enjoy the visits from both my children and the GSD.

How about you and your dogs, do you herd or trian in SchH, agility maybe? I would love to pursue agility again, but have no time. When I retire, and have more time, I want to teach a GSD fly-ball! OK, that you are allowed to make fun of me about!


----------



## Doc

Oh come on Leis, you want me to expose my dogs to this crowd?You could be a charter member, isn't that worth something? If you act soon enough, you could even qualify for a lifetime membership -but you got to hurry - I don't even buy green bananas because I may die before they get ripe!


----------



## Vandal

> Quote:I don't even buy green bananas because I may die before they get ripe!


LOL....


----------



## Samba

Well, thanks for answering at your own peril! 

I am now pondering how lucky I was to finish those bananas today, really!


----------



## Doc

Wayne
I train in CGC, TDI, Rally, Obedenece and if I had could herding, tracking and agility. More than that, I study German shepherd history, bloodlines, health issues, and developmental aspects of newborn German shepherds. I also study GS nutrition and its effect on structural development and disease prevention. Other than that, I don't know anything about German shepherds Wayne.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DocOh come on Leis, you want me to expose my dogs to this crowd?


Well it's up to you, keeper of the one "true" German shepherd, since everyone else here doesn't seem to quite make your cut b/c we belong to the wrong club, or the dog is just too good at Schutzhund, or.....

Personally I am happy going on without being a member of any organization. It doesn't effect how I train and play with my dogs. *shrug*


----------



## Doc

Lies, I was walking the walk long before you were a glimer in your Dad's eye. Now I just hobble the hobble and hope my dog can break my fall! ROFLMOAO.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DocROFLMOAO.


I like that


----------



## Doc

Lies, I removed my dogs from this forum because of the rude and slanderous remarks made about me by those who boast ad nausium about their "working" shepherd being a good representation of the breed. I don't claim to have the only true German shepherds in this forum - but I am one of the few that doesn't think SchH is the greatest attribute of the German shepherd - and that the only way to know a dog is to join a club and test them. And that ticks most of this crowd off and pushes them to the point of calling me an unethical person, a BYB, money hungry, greedy person that came here with some agenda.

So with that background and knowing how people in here act, I will just remain "Doc" the old codger who tries to put some balance in this form. No dogs, no web-sites, no mass.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocI really am not surprised that Wayne doesn't appreciate my knowledge or articulation about German shepherds. Nor Chris for that matter. Afterall, they both train in the same club - birds of a feather do flock together - and like the same type of dog. It's hard to grasp something different when you surround yourself with animals and people who think the same way you do.


Well, where to start a response here???









Yes, I train with Chris Wild, and I am proud to consider her my mentor. _(I know I promised I would never say that in public, sorry)_ Having said that, and although my experience is limited, I have read from more than one book. I have studied the training methods of the gentlemen below. They each impressed me as knowing a thing or two about GSDs.
























As for your "Group Think" assertion, if we must head back to psychological theory again, you have no basis. I work a high line in a club made-up largely of working lines. Although I do admit, I am in line for an "I" vom Wildhaus puppy....so maybe I am guilty, and happy.


----------



## Liesje

Hey Wayne maybe Helmut is finally someone who counts since I bet he's older than Doc...


----------



## Ruthie

So help me out here. What are the arguments about? 

In summary...

- Wayne believes that we are past unification and need a new organization to preserve the "true GSD".
- Doc believes that we can preserve the "true GSD" without a split; he has one, but no green bananas
- Lies agrees with the notion of the "true GSD" but just wants to train and love her dog without dealing with all the politics
- Anne also wants to preserve the "true GSD" but is happy with her current memberships
- Chris is just providing information and getting ridiculed
- I am taking it all in without opinion other than there is a general lack of education available about the "true GSD" to novices 
- And many others...

Again... what are the arguments about? Or did I completely misread everything. It sounds like everyone agrees that they want to preserve the "true GSD". So wouldn't it be more productive to discuss how rather than picking at each other.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocWayne
> I train in CGC, TDI, Rally, Obedenece and if I had could herding, tracking and agility. More than that, I study German shepherd history, bloodlines, health issues, and developmental aspects of newborn German shepherds. I also study GS nutrition and its effect on structural development and disease prevention. Other than that, I don't know anything about German shepherds Wayne.


Rally is something I would like to try someday....I suspect that would be a blast.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Ruthie
> - Lies agrees with the notion of the "true GSD" but just wants to train and love her dog without dealing with all the politics


Spot on! I think the onus is on the buyers, breeders, and fanciers; it comes from the bottom up. I don't expect any organization to be responsible for maintaining the breed, nor do I have much faith that one would.

At present, I am only a member of those organizations that require me to join in order to show and trial my dogs. Since the arctic air is moving in and there will be no more show/trial opportunities within a viable distance for some time now, my memberships will probably lapse.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeHey Wayne maybe Helmut is finally someone who counts since I bet he's older than Doc...


If you add Ivan and T. Floyd together maybe they would count?


----------



## Samba

Love the synopsis! 

I am looking for real pragmatic methods for preservation. Of course that would assume GSD folks could agree on what we are preserving! The RSV2000 looks like an organization that has set the goal. Is it a model? Do all camps have to unite for preservation to occur? If so, why, psychologically and statistically?

I'll do my part and buy food for as many dogs as I can.


----------



## Castlemaid

I've really been enjoying this thread, love everyone's intelligent and articulate contribution. 

I think though, that it is hard to argue against Lies about giving people who actually work and title their dogs more weight to their views and experiences than someone who:


> Originally Posted By: DocWayne
> I train in CGC, TDI, Rally, Obedenece and if I had could herding, tracking and agility.


That is great and wonderful for a _pet_ dog. My _pet_ mixed-breed shelter rescue has more accomplishments to her name in equivalent titles, though I admit I have never tried herding, due to the lack of venues in this area (I've checked). I may, tongue-in-cheek, refer to her as a working dog, but she is just a well-trained pet, and I do not pretend to myself that she does have the character to be a working dog, as I have seen what it takes to be a working dog. 

So I second Liesje in the spirit of her post, one can talk the talk, but it does not mean much if you don't walk the walk.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Castlemaidpeople who actually work and title their dogs more weight to their views and experiences


And not just_ their_ dogs, but just dogs in general. Dogs, dogs, and more dogs. A trainer/helper/breeder...does it get more qualified than that? People that not only have studied the genetics but have _seen_ and _*felt*_ it in action.


----------



## Samba

Well, here I am training in tracking, AKC obedience, Rally, herding, agility,showing in conformation in the specialty and all-breed ring, training in schutzhund whenever a helper materializes here in the outback. Managed to train several dogs to AKC titles. 

Even my weakest dog went on to earn Rally and Obedience titles. I have seen much weaker than mine make those achievements also. Certainly there are basket cases who can't do these things, but I don't consider them really working venues. They are companion events and while training a dog in these does show you some things, it does not give a complete picture. 

I seem to learn the most from people who train dogs for real life service, those who have spent their lives herding large flocks, or who put on a sleeve and know how to test a dog and what they are seeing, those who have bred for years and can intelligently characterize what they see in the dogs they're involved with over the years. There aren't alot of these around. These are also on my preservation list. Vitamin E anyone?

Perhaps the dogs of yesteryear are gone. If they aren't, where shall we discover them?


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: Liesje And not just_ their_ dogs, but just dogs in general. Dogs, dogs, and more dogs. A trainer/helper/breeder...does it get more qualified than that? People that not only have studied the genetics but have _seen_ and _*felt*_ it in action.


You forgot handler. As a helper, let me tell you, there is a great deal of pain between a bad handler, and a good one. 

I am proud to be a handler/trainer/helper....but based on what I have learned about breeding the past several weeks, I can tell you in absolute terms, and I very seldom speak in absolutes, I will absolutely never be a breeder.

So for me, I will leave this thread with the safe keeping of the working lines in the hands of the excellent breeders, the gatekeepers.

A precipitate of this discussion has been the notion of education. Who is responsible, where is the leadership for educating the new potential owners on what a working GSD is? 

<span style='font-size: 14pt'><span style="color: #000099">*"Got Working GSDs?"*</span></span>


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02 A precipitate of this discussion has been the notion of education. Who is responsible, where is the leadership for educating the new potential owners on what a working GSD is?


*THANK YOU!*


----------



## Catu

Lies, Ruthie... one of you have to change the avatar of the dog tongue... you confuse me!!!! 

I constantly have to re-read a post because I forget who said what, LOL


----------



## Ruthie

Sorry, I guess they are similar.







But, Lies is a better photographer and mine is the one with the spots on the tongue.


----------



## Vandal

Boy, I guess I am slow. It took me some years to be proficient at those three activities. I am impressed that others can grasp it all so quickly.


----------



## cliffson1

There is so much education that has transpired on this topic and the Fat Lady topic, that Stevie Wonder could see it if he desired. I keep hearing this," when will leadership educate the novice." Reasons for the demise of the breed have been discussed, criteria for breeding that has led to this demise has been discussed, personal preferences for what people think the breed should be has been discussed. Historical use, performances, service use, and breeding ethics have been discussed. The breaking of the breed into segments, and their uses, and their conformance to the standard and creation of the breed, have been discussed. 
There is plenty of information in these topics that educate, its up to the novice to take the information and soak it into their consciousness if they feel it is useful and accurate. But to say the novice isn't getting any education from supposed leadership is disingenuous.JMO


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: cliftonanderson1There is so much education that has transpired on this topic and the Fat Lady topic, that Stevie Wonder could see it if he desired. I keep hearing this," when will leadership educate the novice." Reasons for the demise of the breed have been discussed, criteria for breeding that has led to this demise has been discussed, personal preferences for what people think the breed should be has been discussed. Historical use, performances, service use, and breeding ethics have been discussed. The breaking of the breed into segments, and their uses, and their conformance to the standard and creation of the breed, have been discussed.
> There is plenty of information in these topics that educate, its up to the novice to take the information and soak it into their consciousness if they feel it is useful and accurate. But to say the novice isn't getting any education from supposed leadership is disingenuous.JMO


I can't speak for anyone else, but my point about education was in general, not on this forum. I really don't think it is realistic to expect that everyone who is considering owning a GSD will somehow find these two posts. And having read all of this one and most of the other, I get a little information on the breed and a whole lot of bickering.

I agree with Anne that the responsibility is that of learner. But I also challenge, that it should also be the responsibility of those with years of experience, those who breed, and those who love and want to preserve the breed to provide information to those considering joining the ranks of the GSD owner. 

You said in an earlier post that no one is representing the working GSD. What is your opinion? Who should be?


----------



## lhczth

Ruthie, 

I agree with Anne. The responsibility lies with those who want to learn. I got involved with the GSD back in the early 80's. That was long before the internet. I read just about every book available on the breed, visited breeders, and exposed myself to dogs. Maybe I was lucky to already be training another breed in obedience. The people I trained with pointed me towards the German dogs. My only real resource for finding breeders was word of mouth, Dog World magazine and the German Shepherd Quarterly. I looked at a number of litters and talked to even more "breeders". My education has continued ever since.

Those with years of experience do attempt to educate, but the new people have to want to learn. Many don't. Our organizations do attempt to educate, but the same applies. People have to be willing to listen and learn. I have learned the best form of education is the dogs. Seeing and spending time around good dogs has a far more lasting affect than anything written on the internet and much more than what is said.


----------



## Doc

I feel the love folks. Keep it coming. 

And yes, my dogs are pets - among other things - aren't yours?

Ruthie, do you want to learn anything or are you waiting to be spoon fed biased information?

"When there is a lack of leadership, people will listen to anyone that steps up to the microphone".


----------



## Doc

How old is Helmut? I may give him a run for his money.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: DocI feel the love folks. Keep it coming.
> 
> And yes, my dogs are pets - among other things - aren't yours?
> 
> Ruthie, do you want to learn anything or are you waiting to be spoon fed biased information?
> 
> "When there is a lack of leadership, people will listen to anyone that steps up to the microphone".


Doc, I enjoy sparring with you.

YES! My dog is family, sits on my couch, sleeps in my bed.

No, Ruthie is not looking to be spoon fed, refer to her post on the dairy farmers..."Got Milk?" It is about raising the awareness of working lines in a general sense...not so much about specific points of education. Think of the perceptions created in the general public with a show like Westminster. That show builds awarness of a type of GSD for the average person. What does the working line have that would equal awareness and perception Westminster?

Your Michael J Fox quote is one of the points that has precipitated out of this discussion....do we need leadership specific to working lines, if so, would that be a breeders' association, and would one of their objectives be not only be to protect & preserve the lines, but to also educate people about this wonder working dog?


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: DocRuthie, do you want to learn anything or are you waiting to be spoon fed biased information?


Spoon fed? Mmmmm. It depends on what's for dinner, or dessert. I am a big fan of dessert.

Seriously, though I already have a dog. I am doing the same type of things that Lisa mentioned to continue to learn, which were great suggestions by the way. I joined a SchH club, joined the GSD forum, have a list of links to the few websites I can find, and just received 3 books in the mail to go through.

I am saying that it is difficult for those who are looking for a GSD for the first time to even know that working lines or really much other than the American Show Lines exist. Once you know to even look, there is information out there, not a lot, but there is some. I think there isn’t much exposure of working lines to the novice buyer, in the typical places that people look. But, I am speaking only from my experience. It might make a really interesting poll. I might just add one later.

My hypothesis is that most who own working dogs do so because of word of mouth, not because they found out about working GSDs at a dog show, library, pet store, pet expo...


----------



## Doc

Wayne,

I do think leadership is needed but it can not be in the form of a militant, cold spokesperson. What is needed is a great communicator - someone who can touch the heart and mind of the average person.

And Wayne, you know as well as I, you can't force people to listen or learn. "You can buy them books and buy them books but you can't make them read".

Check your quotes, I think the one you gave MJF credit for was actually Michael Douglas.

Wayne, I am getting way to old to spar. I'm not as good as I once was, but I am once as good as I ever was. I may give out, but I will never give up.

Let's create a "working" German shepherd show that will show case all the "working" attributes in a venue that the average joe public would appreciate and attend. We could divide the county into 5 different regions and rotate the show each year around the country. No connections to any established organization(s) but let each organization sponsor the event along with others. The Working German Shepherd Dog Show, LLC.


----------



## cliffson1

Wayne, Read Lisa's and Anne's post again. The onus is on the individual. Do you hear how many of us oldtimers got the knowledge we have. A vast amount of it is participation and dialogue with many many knowledgable others. It also means going to many many events, rather they be breed shows, trial, herding, K9, obedience, etc. People have to get off their duffs and get out their mingle, talk, look, listen, and even better...participate.
As for representing the working dogs, first I do not believe in the concept of there having to be working lines specifically. I believe responsible breeding produces dogs to a standard that can work. I don't want everyone to have a german shepherd, because the people who aren't suited for one will try to change it to fit their needs. this is what happened to the american show lines. People that are breeders and JUDGES, that have never worked a working dog in their life. Nauseating to me!!
So some of us will try to retain the nobility of the breed and if you do your due diligence and learn the history of WHAT made this breed noble you will understand the reason we strive to protect the essence of the breed. People who put in their due diligence will become educated, but education must be accompanied with experience or else you become nothing more than academic armchair expert and the breed goes into the toilet.!


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Let's create a "working" German shepherd show that will show case all the "working" attributes in a venue that the average joe public would appreciate and attend. We could divide the county into 5 different regions and rotate the show each year around the country. No connections to any established organization(s) but let each organization sponsor the event along with others. The Working German Shepherd Dog Show, LLC.


It would need heaps of promotion. Even considering how supposedly brainwashed the public is about the show lines being superior, the annual Sieger shows are not well attended by the public. I'm not sure there's but 100 people there that aren't exhibiting or already heavily involved in the breed.


----------



## Vandal

> Quote:My hypothesis is that most who own working dogs do so because of word of mouth, not because they found out about working GSDs at a dog show, library, pet store, pet expo...


Nothing wrong with that. A GSD is not for everyone and mostly, the people who find out that way are the people who are a bit more informed and are more ready to own a dog of that caliber. Maybe makes for less buyers for breeders but turning the SL into a "product" has been the biggest contributor to the demise of that bloodline.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:My hypothesis is that most who own working dogs do so because of word of mouth, not because they found out about working GSDs at a dog show, library, pet store, pet expo...
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with that. A GSD is not for everyone and mostly, the people who find out that way are the people who are a bit more informed and are more ready to own a dog of that caliber. Maybe makes for less buyers for breeders but turning the SL into a "product" has been the biggest contributor to the demise of that bloodline.
Click to expand...

I am not sure that I completely agree with that. Any product, even dogs, is about supply and demand. I don't think that the "working dog" regardless of what blood line is represented. The more that the ASL are promoted, the more that is what people will want, the more people will shift to that type. Even those who breed ASL that work don't have much of a voice.

I don't think that ownership of this "true GSD" (I label this way because we won't agree what that is) should not be a secret society that you only can stumble upon by word of mouth.

And, absolutely, a well bred GSD is not for everyone. I have discouraged several people from getting a GSD because I know they couldn't handle one with their view of dog ownership. But that is part of the exposure, to help people understand what a GSD is all about. Might cut down on the dogs that need rescuing because the owners didn't get what they bargained for.


----------



## Doc

No one said it would be easy Lies. And why do you think the show you mentioned is so poorly attended? Could it be that the average German shepherd owner could care less? Or that those that understand German shepherds do find pleasure watching/participating in that show? I would contend that the poor attendance, lack of new and young members, and lack of entries reflects an overall disinterest in the organization and it's show. Perhaps the other non attendees are looking for something they can not find in the current show? Maybe respect, comraderie, unbiased educators, etc. With such poor attendance, there is something bad wrong with Sieger show model.


----------



## Vandal

> Quote: I don't think that ownership of this "true GSD" (I label this way because we won't agree what that is) should not be a secret society that you only can stumble upon by word of mouth.


Looking for where someone said secret society but can't seem to find it. 
Some of this I guess only the people who breed , (and are maybe a little selective about where their dogs go), can understand. I turn away a large percentage of the people who contact me about dogs and pups. Yes, there are that many who have no idea how to handle a house plant and I am always relieved when someone who seems to "get it" contacts me. This gets harder each year, not easier because as I have learned from my mistakes, I have gotten more and more picky about who gets one of my dogs.
There are enough working line dogs available and lots of people who have the wrong idea about what a working dog is. The more popular you make the dogs, the more people will pop up trying to breed them. There are simply too many people who only look at pedigrees and papers and have no real idea how to evaluate the DOGS they breed. They say they are helpers and trainers etc but the people who know how long it really takes to understand what you are working, know how much bologna that is.


----------



## W.Oliver

Think about the promotion that Max drove, informing police and military organizations, of the GSD working ability.

There is nothing wrong with promoting the attributes of working GSDs....it is the breeders who would benefit, and the public, where the average person would become aware of something more than red&black.

I am editing, because after reading Anne's last post, I can very clearly see her point as well.......because as I stated in an earlier post....I don't believe everyone who wants a puppy, should have access to a GSD. I refer many to Labs and Goldens.

Stalemate....again. I believe we have kicked the crap out of this dead equine?


----------



## Ruthie

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that information about working dogs should not be made easily available to those who are considering GSDs because most people shouldn't own them. Those who purchase working dogs should only do so by word of mouth. With that understanding of your statement, I labeled it a "secret society".

I am not sure what the answer is, but I do know that the absense of information is only contributing to people purchasing the wrong type of GSD. Again, just speaking from my own experience and the few GSD owners that I know.

I am glad that you are picky about who gets your dogs.


----------



## Doc

Or the work done by the service organizations that utilize German shepherds - Guide Dogs of America, Seeing Eye Dogs, etc. Wheelchair/brace/balance dogs; German shepherds participating in the PAWS program; German shepherds helping autistic children, etc., etc.

There are many positive avenues that are currently "working" German Shepherds.I'm not sure why the public doesn't see that.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02where the average person would become aware of something more than red&black.


I guess the question here is, do we really WANT the average person to become aware of them? Look what has already happened to the types/bloodlines most forefront in the brains of the average person.

The GSD is not a dog for the average person. A dog representing true GSD temperament, rather than the watered down versions of dogs that look like GSDs but don't act like it, is even less suited to the average person. Heck, I agree with Anne about houseplants being a better pet than any breed for a good percentage of average people.

Back to the idea of education. The info is there if people want to learn. Is it always easy to find or right in front of them? No, but it's not hidden away in a secret vault either. Like Cliff said, it's there for those who get off their duffs and go look for it. And the people who do seek out that education and obtain it, are in doing so rising above "average person" status, making them perhaps more suitable for this breed in the first place. In that way the process not only makes those people more prepared for a GSD, but does a good job in weeding out the houseplant owners too.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02
> Stalemate....again. I believe we have kicked the crap out of this dead equine?


Agree. I'm out. 

Thanks for the chat everyone. I think I will still add the poll in later, after work. I am interested to see how people are selecting their dogs. Maybe, I just need to expand my horizons and change my viewpoint.


----------



## Andaka

> Quote:Again... what are the arguments about? Or did I completely misread everything. It sounds like everyone agrees that they want to preserve the "true GSD". So wouldn't it be more productive to discuss how rather than picking at each other.


I think the biggest argument is what makes a "true German Shepherd". My view is different from Wayne's view which is different from Doc's view. I think that Lies and I have a more similar view, but there are still differences. How can we unify if we can't agree?


----------



## Liesje

I think my view is closest to Cliff. I agree with everything he's said (in fact I don't believe I have the experience to disagree) and I also agree that the true GSD needs that factor of aggression and courage. Most of the more "versatile" performance events don't seem test this. That's not to say the dogs don't have it...but how do you know? For me that is still important. One of my dogs doesn't have these traits and still has more performance titles than many dogs I see being bred as "show dogs that work". To me, not training breeding dogs is inexcusable not because of titles but because of what we learn about the dog. I have no intention of breeding dogs but I am amazed at how much they teach me about themselves and dogs in general through our training.


----------



## Doc

Henry Clay could of worked it out. And no Wayne, I'm not speaking from personal experiences with him!

Tap into the passion that has been exhibited here and channel it into a positive direction. Or we can keep the gloves on and fight until only one group is standing.

The key will be the ability to compromise - an art that has been long forgotten.

This challenge isn't a mountain - it is a mere speed bump along the way. If I am willing to do it, surely all you other folks can do the same. I may be stubborn, but I'm not dumb.


----------



## Doc

Well Lies, I think a lot of what I like is reflected in Cliff's words. He may or may not agree. It is true that the German shepherd should contain a loyalty/protection aspect for his "family". I have never, ever said they shouldn't. I have acknowledged that trait as important. IN the same breath, I have said that it is not the only "working" ability that is important. Maybe most of the folks in here disagree with me. I think intelligent dog owners know "if their dogs have it or not". Your biggest argument is that one can not know their dog without pushing it to their limits via training. I happen to disagree with you about that. I could contend that there is no way to know your female dogs unless you have held and slept with them for days as they give birth to a new litter and nurtured them into young dogs. And that there is no way to know your dog unless you have raised it from birth. Its all a matter of perspective - I am a breeder. You own dogs and like to train them - two different aspects. JMO


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> Tap into the passion that has been exhibited here and channel it into a positive direction.


No reason to believe that isn't happening, I think most people in this thread are very active training, showing, and/or trialing their dogs. It's a rare week that I'm not going to 2-3 different dog training events or shows/trials. I stand by my dog so I put him in shows even if he's not American line or isn't as typey and angulated as the other west German dogs. He is what I wanted and what I like so he is what I show. I'm not getting something else simply because that's what wins, and I'm not going to withdraw completely because it accomplishes nothing.


----------



## Doc

They may be passion exhibited by everyone in here - but as Wayne contends - the house is divided and will continue as such until folks can find common ground and work towards a unified home - if that is what is wanted. 

It sounds to me as if the unification - at least by most in here - isn't really an option and the "working" (which has yet to be clearly defined) line German shepherd crowd is looking for an organization to hang their hat. That question has nothing to do about whether one trains their dog or not or what kind of letters follow a dogs name.

And those that poo poo the CGC, TDI, UD, Ralley, etc. shame on you!


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> And those that poo poo the CGC, TDI, UD, Ralley, etc. shame on you!


No one is poo-pooing the achievements or work it takes to get there itself.

Merely pointing out that something designed to test only the most general traits of dogdom and basic training, and are achievable for most any dog with a generally sound temperament and training, are insufficient in terms of thoroughly testing nerve and *working* temperament for this bred. Do they test important things? Yes. Do they test everything that is important? No. Is much learned about the dog along the way? Of course! But nothing in those achievements in any way, shape or form allows them to say "now that is a GSD" vs "now that is a Lab/Cocker Spaniel/Pomeranian/Newfoundland/All American Mutt".



> Originally Posted By: Doc I have never, ever said they shouldn't. I have acknowledged that trait as important. IN the same breath, I have said that it is not the only "working" ability that is important. Maybe most of the folks in here disagree with me.


No, I don't think anyone here will disagree with you that it is not the *only* thing that is important. Most readily acknowldge that it is only one of many, many important traits. No argument there.

What they will disagree with you on is whether it is safe to assume it is there when it isn't bred for or tested in any way.

Your constant poo-pooing of those who do test for it via venues like SchH, won't bring much agreement either.


----------



## Branca's Mom

I love Obedience, but it doesn't really test a dogs temperament. My sweet boy Urro, whom I really really love..... averaged 195 in Obedience and 99 in Rally. In 15 or so trials before retiring him due to his severe ED, he never missed a beat or let me down. I could for the most part hide his nerve problems to almost everyone for a short time. In additions to Obedience and Rally he also got his CGC, TDI, HIC and TT. He also.......... would tuck tail and run if someone said boo.... 

I witnessed the temperament testing done on at least 2 dozen dogs at the '05 GSDCA nationals and they were passing dogs that had OBVIOUS temperament issues. It was a good test, seriously, but why were they passing these dogs??? It made a joke out of what could have been a good test. Kinda reminds me of.... something else









I think that obedience and rally and the CGC TDI and AKC hearding such are great, but should be taken for what they are and nothing more..


----------



## lhczth

> Quote:I am not sure what the answer is, but I do know that the absense of information is only contributing to people purchasing the wrong type of GSD.


What is contributing to people purchasing the wrong GSD is that most puppy buyers are lazy. They do not want to take the time to educate themselves. They are also often in a hurry. They want a puppy NOW. There is plenty of information available. I was able to find it back in the 80's and it is far easier (and harder in some ways) now. 

BTW, I have always had GSD bred to work.


----------



## Catu

> Originally Posted By: Ruthie
> I am not sure that I completely agree with that. Any product, even dogs, is about supply and demand. I don't think that the "working dog" regardless of what blood line is represented. The more that the ASL are promoted, the more that is what people will want, the more people will shift to that type. Even those who breed ASL that work don't have much of a voice.


But... Over the few years I've been involved in the dog world I've seen a lot of new GSD owners getting a Show-Line (I generalize, since there are no ASL here) or BYB lines of GSD. Then I've seen many of these people who for the next dog look for a working line.

I've never seen someone going from working lines to showlines.

I by example, never thought of owning a GSD myself because all I knew were showlines, until I got more educated in the dog world, and here I am, with a working line girl.


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntai
> But... Over the few years I've been involved in the dog world I've seen a lot of new GSD owners getting a Show-Line (I generalize, since there are no ASL here) or BYB lines of GSD. Then I've seen many of these people who for the next dog look for a working line.
> 
> I've never seen someone going from working lines to showlines.
> 
> I by example, never thought of owning a GSD myself because all I knew were showlines, until I got more educated in the dog world, and here I am, with a working line girl.


I know I said I was stepping out, but it is just too interesting to stay away.

This was exactly my point because this was my experience as well. I appreciate what Anne said too, about marketing the working line drawing attention and ending up with people breeding that shouldn't... the people she turns away that have no business owning a GSD... Is there a happy medium? 

I still can't accept that working lines are only for the "super researcher" like my husband, or for those lucky enough to know someone so they can find out by word of mouth. I consider myself to be an informed buyer. I did research on the breeds and selected a GSD, checked books out of the library, did the what breed to buy quizzes on line, talked to trainers, visited breeders, looked online...I just didn't happen to run across working line information until my DH brought it up. He found the information on working lines, corresponded with Chris via e-mail a few times to get additional information, and HE found Trish from whom we purchased Bison. 

I am open to changing my mind about this though. I will just need to do some more research.







Ick.


----------



## Xeph

I've been reading this thread since it started (all of it) and I am one that wishes for unification even though it's not going to happen.

I do have a question though. I currently have a purebred dog of mixed lines (Strauss) who is my service dog. I am getting a new puppy for his working replacement next year (a working line girl). I'm not getting a working line because I feel it will be temperamentally better suited for the job, but in part because I think structurally she'll be a bit better suited, and I couldn't find a show line breeder that I liked.

That said, if she panned out...if ANY of the dogs (GSDs only in this case) that are in training and have already been "certified" in training are doing a great job, should they not be bred?

I ask this question because these dogs are doing very real work every day, but we cannot test their abilities in aggression and courage. It is detrimental to their standing (or potential standing in the case of an SDIT) as a service animal. They can be considered a concealed weapon in some respect.

Even though I have such trouble walking these days, I still train and trial in obedience and agility, and have recently gotten back into tracking. I plan on doing that with the next baby too.

But if it comes to breeding, all I'll have to go off of is their "not as good" AKC titles, because I can't have the risk of training them in SchH. It is not a point of MY believing they are dangerous, but that of the public, and it could be detrimental for SD's as a whole. More rigorous standards being put into place.

And I can't say that my mobility dog is any less important than a narcotics dog, a patrol dog, a trailing dog. He/she's doing very real work through very real service. He/she does have to have strong nerves and, to some degree, courage.

But I can't fully test that due to subtle legal restrictions.

So are these not "true GSDs" then?

Sacrifices have been made from every line to get something that was wanted, and not all of these things have been good, I realize that. But that is what happens in breedings.

We can try for balance, but if we actually achieved it? Well, we wouldn't need to be breeding anymore.


----------



## W.Oliver

> Originally Posted By: Branca's Mom My sweet boy Urro, whom I really really love..... averaged 195 in Obedience and 99 in Rally. In 15 or so trials before retiring him due to his severe ED, he never missed a beat or let me down.


I have said over and over, I am a simple student of the GSD. Can you please tell me what ED is so I can get the theme song to the Viagra commercials out of my head!


----------



## Doc

I only poo poo most of the SchH folks in here because they rarely, if ever, admit that a "working" German shepherd does not necessarily have to be engaged in SchH to be considered a working line German shepherd. Most SchH people in here define "work" as SchH. And you really should read the post a little closer because there are constant putdowns about people and dogs that pass their CGC, UD, TI, etc. 

To say they do not test a German shepherds nerves or character is not the factual - just ask Lies and others in here if a 3-5 minute separation is easy to pass. And see how some of the highly trained SchH dogs respond to walkers, wheelchairs, cars flying past them on a crowded street while guiding a blind person, or the sound of semis, trucks, and cars with blairing horns or an autistic child in a fit of rage. There are other tests for nerves besides SchH but they are never acknowledged in this forum and if they are, those folks are reminded that SchH is the real test.


----------



## Liesje

Personally, I believe that we should breed for the best, the dogs that possess all the traits we want (or as close to it, as no dog is perfect). A dog that has the soundness and courage and aggression for protection work can still be perfectly suited for service work and will likely produce dogs suited for this work...but if you breed generations and generations without these traits how will you get them back? Based on which do you are getting, I think that also proves the point. Good, working line, SchH dogs...should serve your purpose as well as any.


----------



## Doc

Wayne, you remember the Viagra song? Oh my ... Some of us are happy we can remember our name and where we live.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DocI only poo poo most of the SchH folks in here because they rarely, if ever, admit that a "working" German shepherd does not necessarily have to be engaged in SchH to be considered a working line German shepherd. Most SchH people in here define "work" as SchH. And you really should read the post a little closer because there are constant putdowns about people and dogs that pass their CGC, UD, TI, etc.
> 
> To say they do not test a German shepherds nerves or character is not the factual - just ask Lies and others in here if a 3-5 minute separation is easy to pass. And see how some of the highly trained SchH dogs respond to walkers, wheelchairs, cars flying past them on a crowded street while guiding a blind person, or the sound of semis, trucks, and cars with blairing horns or an autistic child in a fit of rage. There are other tests for nerves besides SchH but they are never acknowledged in this forum and if they are, those folks are reminded that SchH is the real test.


Most, if not all the SchH people here do CGC with their dogs. The BH also has a "traffic test" and the ATTS Temperament Test is also a good basic test for nerves (no obedience required or even allowed, unlike the CGC which is more of an obedience test, IMO). The CGC is probably not taken very seriously considering how many dogs pass it and do not have the correct nerves or soundness for breeding. I have a dog like this, she has passed the CGC three times in three different locations and has never failed any of the test items or received much training for the CGC. So why is a test like this to be used as a breedworthiness test for GSDs when almost any dog can pass or be trained to pass? I like the TT better because it at least takes breed temperament into account (or it should if the evaluator is doing it correctly....what might pass a Shih Tzu may not pass a GSD).


----------



## Xeph

I don't disagree Lies, but you can't have a dog with over the top prey drive (or defense, or or or) as a service animal. Things do have to be toned down a little, and aggression in a service dog is certainly unacceptable.

And you don't know if you're breeding generations without these traits in the SDs....we're not really allowed to test them. Those that DO take the risk of doing SchH with their SD generally keep quiet about it. But there are other things we must consider too.

My puppy is coming from two SchH titled parents, but I've asked for a puppy with a lower prey drive that is a bit more subdued. This is not normally my preference. I LIKE a pushy in your face fiery dog...but they are not particularly suited to work that is not incredibly intense.

The role of Strauss is to basically walk around in a relative heel position while we're out in public so he can catch me if I fall. He spends a lot of his time laying down out of the way, and a lot of time sitting.

Of COURSE working lines can do the SD work...we've all seen them. But are these not the same puppies that were probably a bit too low in one drive (or many) that weren't suited to SchH?


----------



## Doc

Why do people label their dogs as SchH dogs? To me it speaks volumes. Why can't you just call them a German shepherd that is active in SchH or is trained in SchH? He/she is still a German shepherd.


----------



## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Wayne02
> 
> I have said over and over, I am a simple student of the GSD. Can you please tell me what ED is


I am so sorry.... I had this great post written out. 









but, decided against posting it.

ED = Elbow dysplasia


----------



## Doc

Sounds to me like there are a lot of incompetent testers in your area Lies. Just like the corrupt Judges that awards titles based on what is put into their hand before the shows.

Wayne, where would you like to hold the first Working Dog Show? I lost my a _ _ last time in Vegas along with my watch and other things! And I swore I would never return to that sinful place in this lifetime. Then I got on the stagecoach and left.


----------



## Doc

Jackie,

Will you dress your new pup in a tie dyed bandanna to match your shirt? Please .....


----------



## Branca's Mom

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> To say they do not test a German shepherds nerves or character is not the factual - just ask Lies and others in here if a 3-5 minute separation is easy to pass. And see how some of the highly trained SchH dogs respond to walkers, wheelchairs, cars flying past them on a crowded street while guiding a blind person, or the sound of semis, trucks, and cars with blairing horns or an autistic child in a fit of rage. There are other tests for nerves besides SchH but they are never acknowledged in this forum and if they are, those folks are reminded that SchH is the real test.


I have taken my fair share of SchH dogs walking around traffic and wheel chairs and such, didn't phase them as it shouldn't. I have even done CGC's, TDI's and obedience titles on a couple of retired SchH dogs.

I would say that passing a 5 minute separation should be a piece of cake.... even my boy did that with no problem when he was just a youngster. I just handed the leash to the tester told him to platz and walked off. We had practiced it a couple of times and he "knew" I was coming back. Not a big deal and any dog that can't pass that I don't even know what to say about that!! 

The BH should weed out any real weak nerved dog if done correctly. Hence the really weak nerved dog should never advance past that point.

My point was that in AKC obedience, I have a nervebag who can go into the ring, and score very well. Plus I did the HIC and even the TT meaning that I can hide the nerves for the most part in those venues. (quite honestly, he should have failed the TT but didn't) But, it would take a humongous effort to be able to get a SchH1 on him. There is a LOT more pressure "testing" going on in SchH. Is it perfect? nope! I have seen dogs earn titles in SchH where the judge must have been looking up at the sky or something but most dogs getting their 1 earn it.

Even though I don't like a lot of things about SchH, including a lot of the people involved, I do think that it does test the dog about as well as anything else out there that I am aware of. Certainly more than traditional obedience alone.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:Jackie,
> 
> Will you dress your new pup in a tie dyed bandanna to match your shirt? Please .....


Just for you Doc xD


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DocSounds to me like there are a lot of incompetent testers in your area Lies.


Actually, we have passed dogs we did not want to pass because they performed the test exactly as the rules state. The evaluator I help do tests for (as the "stranger") is not easy, but even if we know a dog is weak nerved because we know the dog and have seen it behave in other environments, we can't not pass the dog if it performs the tests as required on that day. That is why I think it's good to re-test dogs, and to test in brand new environments under "strangers". Also another thing that just proves the test's weakness as a _temperament _test. People can take classes, "warm up" their dogs, have their trainer be the evaluator, take the test where they train...but the CGC does not proclaim itself to be a temperament test for breedworthiness so we shouldn't hold it up to be.


----------



## Catu

> Originally Posted By: RuthieI still can't accept that working lines are only for the "super researcher" like my husband, or for those lucky enough to know someone so they can find out by word of mouth. I consider myself to be an informed buyer. I did research on the breeds and selected a GSD, checked books out of the library, did the what breed to buy quizzes on line, talked to trainers, visited breeders, looked online...I just didn't happen to run across working line information until my DH brought it up. He found the information on working lines, corresponded with Chris via e-mail a few times to get additional information, and HE found Trish from whom we purchased Bison.
> 
> I am open to changing my mind about this though. I will just need to do some more research.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ick.


Not super researches or Internet Geeks (I'm an internet geek now, but I had no computer when I started with this dog madness). But if most of working dogs, not only GSDs from working line but all working breeds, end up with people who as shown interest in training, clubs, sports, work, etc. before owning one, I don't see it making any harm to those breeds and lines to remain being in the "working" category.


----------



## Doc

Thanks Jackie! You know how to make me smile. hehehe


----------



## Liesje

I think it's also a function of how the research is done, like Lisa was saying. You had to visit clubs, watch training, go visit several breeders...so not only did you get to pick your dog but you were also exposed to training and other activities, and many people who also invest their time in the breed and the training. Now, you can literally buy and ship a puppy off a web site and order a dog training DVD.


----------



## Doc

Lies, from your wording, it sounds as if you have a biased mindset before the dog enters the testing. Surely I am reading that wrong? To be fair, you and the tester shouldn't have any preconceived knowledge or experience with a dog that is being tested. How can one be objective if you do? Just curious, not trying to start anything.

I haven't said anything about the CGC being a temperament test for breedworthiness. I can get into enough trouble in here on my own without others crediting me with information I didn't say.


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: DocLies, from your wording, it sounds as if you have a biased mindset before the dog enters the testing. Surely I am reading that wrong? To be fair, you and the tester shouldn't have any preconceived knowledge or experience with a dog that is being tested. How can one be objective if you do? Just curious, not trying to start anything.


Yes, many times I have seen the dogs before, not interacted with them otherwise I'm not a "stranger", but I've seen them at shows or I know the owner so they've told me about the dog and how their training is going. Or even more likely, I test the dog and it joins other classes at our club so I see it then and realize it is not what I would call a sound dog, but it was trained to perform the test on that day. If I get to a test and some of the dogs are ones I know, someone else is their "stranger".

Fair or not, the rules are the rules. There is no rule that the evaluator has to be a complete stranger. There's no rule that you cannot take the test with your own club. Our club mainly uses the test as part of the obedience course. First there is basic or puppy class (depending on the dog's age) and then they go on to this class with more basics and the CGC at the very end if they want to take it. The club likes using the test to make sure both the dog an owner can go on to other things, knowing that the dog has the very basic skills and the owner has the dog under control. The club won't toss a dog out if it is weak nerved, dog aggressive, etc but the dog needs to be under control. It is merely a test of basic obedience and being able to bring your dog in a distracting environment and keep it under control.


----------



## Doc

Thanks for your explanation.


----------



## Liesje

No prob. I agree that I don't think it's a true assessment in that context, hence why I do it repeatedly with all my dogs at different places. But I don't know that it's not "fair" since that is not really required of the test. I don't think it's fair to read too much into the test, especially with so many evaluators all injecting their own bias. Nikon failed only the separation the first time he took it and others have described their dog acting up far worse on that part and still passing. It really doesn't matter to me other than we wanted to pass to move on with the club's program. Now that he passed he can start Rally. If our local HS offers the test we'll probably do it again there just to proof it in a new environment with someone he's truly never met.


----------



## Doc

I'm sure he will be more comfortable the more it is done. That separation is a challenge - especially if the dog has a close bond to you! I am hoping to find a herding class close by next spring. I'm not sure I can keep up but I need to see how one of gals reacts.


----------



## Samba

I spend almost every day training for some AKC event. I spend countless hours working those behaviors in order to get scores in the 190s. Way too much of the household income goes into these activities and I really enjoy them. I would be silly to poo-poo them as I practically live and breath them. Because I do them does not add anything to them in my mind. I have no problem honestly assessing what those activities reveal about a dog and what they do not. One does learn about the dog by working closely with it every day and that is important.

Schutzhund is probably a pretty good test of a dog for breed characteristics and suitability. It covers more aspects of the dog's makeup. It is not perfect, it is not a religion. The existence of the title behind a dogs name does not make the dog something it is not. But, done well, there is so much to be learned in the actual doing of the activity. Experience with it only will allow a person to see it. And just like people saying it is up to the student to learn, the learning is dependant more on "who's doing it" than it is on the "particular school" they are in. There is no magic if the learner doesn't bring the abilities needed to learn.

Someone once thought scH and HGH were appropriate breeding suitability tests. Any test will have its weaknesses. If there is room for another test that covers many aspects of the dogs character, I would be game to give it a try. There will never be perfection in the tests though as people cheat, train to cover, etc. But for the good breeder with the appropriate knowledge base, it reveals a lot in the actual doing. 

My dogs are pets, I guess. I don't see many pets that live like mine do though. They cover my little bungalow house, mess up the bed and the theatre seating. They have an entire car dedicated to their entertainment. I don't do something with them only on days that I am out of town.....usually at a dog event! They are constant and abiding companions. I keep looking for the maniacal working line dog here that makes life tough, but all I can find are goofy lay abouts that love their pack, love children and are up for just about anything I propose to do any day. Some of them own decent aggression, but they are not inappropriately aggressive. Some of them have nice drives but they are not driving around the house right now. It is indeed possible to have a dog bred with proper character and ability to do many things, even pass the basic threshold test of schutzhund and have them be awesome family dogs. ScH is pretty basic. Particular venues of real life service may require more of this, less of that, for excellence in their particular niche. 

The dogs who come from lines that do not traditionally assess and test the dogs to a good degree, in general, tend to lack aspects that I consider integral to the breed. I am not a particular "line loyalist", that should be obvious. I am a loyalist to a more complete German Shepherd and way too often the general majority of some lines do not make the grade (generalization alert). They are often lovely,nice dogs with their set of talents and abilities though. If they have weak nerves, I am not too happy and neither are they, but that goes for all lines.

I don't care who yer daddy is if you are a solid character German Shepherd! Many people who breed don't know what that is though.
They think if they have a dog who doesn't spook, who is socially appropriate and can be trained to do tasks, that they have met the goal. Well, a lab or a golden or a doodle or lots of dogs can be all that. Is that enough?


----------



## Ruthie

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI think it's also a function of how the research is done, like Lisa was saying. You had to visit clubs, watch training, go visit several breeders...so not only did you get to pick your dog but you were also exposed to training and other activities, and many people who also invest their time in the breed and the training. Now, you can literally buy and ship a puppy off a web site and order a dog training DVD.


I am not sure if you are responding to me, but because it is on topic, I will assume that you are.

There weren't any working clubs in our area to visit when we were looking for Bison. The one of the breeders that I picked to visit was the one that told me that I couldn't handle one of her pups because it was a monster. It had *gasp* prey drive, and it would need to go to a police department or something. 

My exposure was all to ASL dogs and AKC sponsored activities like obedience, RALLY, fly ball... I knew that there were GSDs in organizations like P.A.W.S, Leader Dogs for the Blind, and the local police. But I didn't know the difference from them and the GSD at the local pet store. 

I guess I am willing to accept at this point that I just didn't have enough research talent, or know the right people. I gues it is a good thing I married the right guy.









Still going to do a poll though.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocWhy do people label their dogs as SchH dogs? To me it speaks volumes. Why can't you just call them a German shepherd that is active in SchH or is trained in SchH? He/she is still a German shepherd.


Does it also speak volumes when people refer to their dogs as herding dogs, agility dogs, obedience dogs, tracking dogs?

Or is it only SchH people who are presumably speaking volumes when they say it?

As for why, well a few very simple reasons. First, it is often relevant to the thread. Especially when people question, or make outright accusations, about SchH dogs can't be pets, or play with kids, or live with cats, or walk down the street around traffic, or pass by someone in a wheelchair, or any number of other ignorant assumptions people make.

So quite naturally, people specify their SchH dogs doing those things, rather than just "my dogs".

But honestly, I think the simple answer is
"German shepherd that is active in SchH or is trained in SchH" = 49 characters to type

"SchH dogs" = 8


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocI only poo poo most of the SchH folks in here because they rarely, if ever, admit that a "working" German shepherd does not necessarily have to be engaged in SchH to be considered a working line German shepherd. Most SchH people in here define "work" as SchH.


I think if you look beyond your assumptions and reading into what people say, or bother to actually ask, you will find that is not the case.

Most "SchH folks" (and why not "those who choose to train and title dogs in SchH"?







) quite openly acknowledge real work as just that. Police dogs, military dogs, guide/service dogs, search and rescue dogs, bomb/drug dogs, herding dogs, farm dogs (dogs who actually work the farm, not pets who just happen to live on one), etc...

All are work, and all rest working ability.

But there is a big difference between work and titles.

Very few people who work their dogs also breed them. Very few true working dogs are breeding dogs. There are a number of reasons for this, biggest being because they work, neither human nor dog may have the time to be bothered with breeding.

That means for the majority of breeders, titles are the breedworthiness test of choice. And when talking about what titles count in terms of breedworthiness and what ones don't, yes there is a huge disparity.

So when it comes to titles, then yes, SchH and like venues are where it's at for most. Why? Because a multi phase venue such as this, and one that includes tests specific to testing aspects of *working* dog temperament in addition to the more general aspects of temperament found in other titling venues are far more relevant to this breed. Particularly one designed specifically for testing working temperament in this breed.




> Originally Posted By: Doc
> And you really should read the post a little closer because there are constant putdowns about people and dogs that pass their CGC, UD, TI, etc.


I thought it quite clear people were poo-pooing the implication that those titles were something that could be utilized effectively to test for breedworthiness in GSDs. Not the achievement of the titles themselves. Huge difference.




> Originally Posted By: Doc
> To say they do not test a German shepherds nerves or character is not the factual


No one said they didn't test something about nerve and temperament. But do they test enough? For a GSD? Not even close.
Again, what about those things is even remotely specific to a GSD or working/herding breed? What in them should not any dog be able to do? What about them differentiates this breed and the traits it should have and what it should be capable of from a Cocker or Golden or Pointer or Pomeranian or Husky or Pug or Labradoodle?


----------



## Samba

Sheep are not readily availabe in large numbers in many parts. Schutzhund is for the maniacal sport enthusist (kidding). What other tests shall we utilize? What would an over reaching, all encompassing organization require as minimal standards for breeding?

I was at a show one day. There was a GSD temperament test administered. I believe 24 some dogs entered. Only two dogs got a score in the positive column upon meeting the somewhat threatening, wierd stranger. Only one dog of those two scored the maximum positive score on that item(my girl). The rest either hid behind handlers, engaged in avoidance or tried to leave. 

Now this is a very basic test done by a parent club and so many dogs just did not do very well. It seems more than coincidence or bad luck.I think the lack of testing, training and breeding for important GSD characteristics might be at play. What endeavor should breeders engage in better judge suitable mating pairs? 

A few moments after the test, I noted some folks setting up for dock diving. Ran up on a whim and asked if we could play too.... sure, pay your money. We won our division that day on our lark participation.

Now, this type of dog who has pretty good protective instincts, is pretty stable, obedience and tracking titled and is what I think a GSD should be something like. You can grab your dog up and go do something and do pretty well at it kinda thing. Is she breedworthy... no, under more pressure her nerves fail to impress and a person knows there are probably dogs who will hopefully pass on a better package. I say this knowing she is a better package than whole kennels have in any one dog. 

How did we get these kennels full? Not enough manaical enthusiasts determined to preserve working characteristics by well-rounded tests maybe? ( well, actually many just don't care and to talk to them about courage or fight drive might result in "huh?").

How shall we get the "huh" crowd in the groove? Many of them tell me they don't even want those things in their dogs. How will our new organization help this situation?


----------



## Doc

Chris,
If it weren't for me and a select few others, this would be one boring ho hum forum. Everyone would just lock hands and sing Kum Ba Ya all night. If SchH is/was so important of a test - why has it been changed over the years. Is it because the current SchH dogs can't couldn't hack the original SchH tasks? Why do dogs now climb lower slanted walls as compared to the straight up walls of old? It apprears to me that they dumbed down the SchH requirements.

You arrogant argument will never convince me that your SchH dogs are will ever be as good as the dogs I remember from the past. I think Cliff, khawk, Fred, and others in here that have been around a lot longer than you and all your friends in here will agree with me.

So keep on spreading your knowledge and write your book. I will be happy to compare it to the standardss that were written probably before you ever owned a German shepherd.

I am sure this will be sensored or I will be sent a nasty gram with a warning but if I am I would like for some of these other folks to receive the same treatment.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeThere is no rule that the evaluator has to be a complete stranger.


Actually the CGC test does specifically say "a friendly stranger". A stranger is someone the dog hasn't met before. There's nothing to say that you can't do the test at your club, but in order to follow the test strictly as written, someone who is not in the club that the dogs have never met before should be doing at least that part of the test. 

In our class one of the women worked at the facility, and they brought in two evaluators to do the test on the last night - there was some discussion between her, the trainer, and assistant trainer to make sure that her dog had never met either woman so it would truly BE a stranger.


----------



## Xeph

> Quote:It apprears to me that they dumbed down the SchH requirements.


IT is my understanding that these things were changed for #1 political correctness and #2 to maintain overall soundness in a dog as much of this these days is a sport more than a breed test.


----------



## Samba

Wow, what adherence to the CGC rules! I had to take the test in a room full of dogs on pinch collars. Got a whistle freakin' blown in my ear and an umbrella practically shot at us. We didn't need our pinchie collar...probably because I trained with the forbidden treats in the face of consternation during classes. The instructors made a point of saying we couldn't use food during the test.....but pinch collars allowed! lol I had to threaten one of the instructors during training for it because I don't give a flip about jumping up on me manners, so had to train for the test. My sweet Catahoula started to come up, I quickly corrected him and she threatened him with a knee to a chest. I get to say, You wouldn't dare correct my dog would you? AKC CGC wierdness all together!!



Ok, got it! The new organization will use the old schutzhund!


----------



## Liesje

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: LiesjeThere is no rule that the evaluator has to be a complete stranger.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the CGC test does specifically say "a friendly stranger". A stranger is someone the dog hasn't met before. There's nothing to say that you can't do the test at your club, but in order to follow the test strictly as written, someone who is not in the club that the dogs have never met before should be doing at least that part of the test.
Click to expand...

This is how we do it but the certified evaluator (who oversees the test and does all the obedience parts) is the trainer and pretty much everyone who takes the test is or was in her class. Usually I am the "stranger", unless I have met the dogs or it's my dog's group (in which case it's usually my DH or the trainer's DH). I do the greeting, petting the dog, grooming/exam, and the separation. Sometimes I also have the neutral dog (Kenya).


----------



## Doc

Political correctness ...







!

I refer to it as a circus, sports entertainment, and other things. It is certainly not the test it once was. Many of today's dogs are trained to perform the requirments in SchH. Years ago the German shepherd only had to be encouraged and knew what to do instinctively. Training in those days was much more enjoyable provided you had the right bloodlines and dog. The dogs were true artist and masters of their craft whereas a large number of dogs today are more like the paint by number crowd.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: Xeph
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:It apprears to me that they dumbed down the SchH requirements.
> 
> 
> 
> IT is my understanding that these things were changed for #1 political correctness and #2 to maintain overall soundness in a dog as much of this these days is a sport more than a breed test.
Click to expand...

And because the ruling class of GSD people over the years came to value beauty over working ability, and the SchH test as merely a stumbling block to be overcome as quickly and easily as possible so they can show and breed more show dogs. 

Taking us full circle into the whole grounds for the topic of this thread in the first place.


----------



## Liesje

Doc I'd rather sing Kum Ba Ya ad infinitum than read pages and pages of nothing but putting down everyone else's dogs and commiserating.


----------



## Doc

If that is the case, then lets go back to the original SchH test and see what the working dog is really made of.


----------



## Liesje

Fine by me!


----------



## Doc

Lies, you've been involved in German shepherds how long? May be 3 years? I have a real hard time putting a great deal of merit on what you say. You seem to know certain things about this breed but there is more than you are willing to learn. Sing Kum BA Ya all night and into the wee morning hours, but you will never understand this breed until you are willing to put up with some old man telling you about the good old days. Because you only know German shepherds from your extremely limited experiences and knowledge.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocChris,
> If it weren't for me and a select few others, this would be one boring ho hum forum. Everyone would just lock hands and sing Kum Ba Ya all night. If SchH is/was so important of a test - why has it been changed over the years. Is it because the current SchH dogs can't couldn't hack the original SchH tasks? Why do dogs now climb lower slanted walls as compared to the straight up walls of old? It apprears to me that they dumbed down the SchH requirements.
> 
> You arrogant argument will never convince me that your SchH dogs are will ever be as good as the dogs I remember from the past. I think Cliff, khawk, Fred, and others in here that have been around a lot longer than you and all your friends in here will agree with me.
> 
> So keep on spreading your knowledge and write your book. I will be happy to compare it to the standardss that were written probably before you ever owned a German shepherd.
> 
> I am sure this will be sensored or I will be sent a nasty gram with a warning but if I am I would like for some of these other folks to receive the same treatment.


While I may not be as old as you, at least I was taught some manners and that if one can't make an argument without degenerating into personal insults, then perhaps that person should sit back and examine whether the argument has any validity in the first place. 

Your constant and repeated belittling of others based on your (possibly quite erroneous) assumptions of their experience, knowledge, education and depth of study into the breed, even stooping so low as to insult member after member because they are younger than you and in doing so implying that they are incapable of knowing anything or understanding anything so they should just sit down and shut up and listen to your diatribes, are not only tiresome rule infractions but they completely cloud any sort of point you are trying to make.


----------



## Liesje

Oh I surround myself with GSD old fogies just not ones half as patronizing as you.







Since you only crawl out of your self-important hole to put down everyone else you probably haven't noticed you're not the only one that has been involved with the breed since before electricity.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocIf that is the case, then lets go back to the original SchH test and see what the working dog is really made of.


Fine by me. So where is the working dog organization that is going to do it? Because those in charge of the GSD worldwide, and thus in charge of SchH, sure aren't going to, since they are the ones who dumbed it down. That would be whole point of this thread in the first place.

Yet despite that, it still remains a pretty good test, and far better than any other venue available to participate in. Of course, those who have never trained a dog in it, much less taken a puppy from scratch and titled a dog in it, will never be able to fathom what it has to offer.


----------



## Doc

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: DocIf that is the case, then lets go back to the original SchH test and see what the working dog is really made of.
> 
> 
> 
> Fine by me. So where is the working dog organization that is going to do it? Because those in charge of the GSD worldwide, and thus in charge of SchH, sure aren't going to, since they are the ones who dumbed it down. That would be whole point of this thread in the first place.
> 
> Yet despite that, it still remains a pretty good test, and far better than any other venue available to participate in. Of course, those who have never trained a dog in it, much less taken a puppy from scratch and titled a dog in it, will never be able to fathom what it has to offer.
Click to expand...

yes for those that haven't it would be a interesting day. But those who have, they are pretty much aware of how things operate and play out.


----------



## Doc

I asked Wayne to join with me and create such an organization, but he has not responded.


----------



## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeOh I surround myself with GSD old fogies


Same here, whenever possible. Though I tend to chose those who are truly willing to teach rather than insult. And who do not hide behind anonymous screen names, but open themselves to scrutiny where their knowledge, experience and expertise can be verified beyond their own claims to have it.


----------



## Doc

You get what you dish out Lies. Before electricity - I was around way before running water and indoor plumbing. And from your posts in here Lies, you are nasty and disrespecful to anyone over the age of 40. Not just this old foggie.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

> Originally Posted By: SambaWow, what adherence to the CGC rules! I had to take the test in a room full of dogs on pinch collars.*snip*
> 
> *snip*The instructors made a point of saying we couldn't use food during the test.....but pinch collars allowed! lol


WHAT?!?!? The rules specifically state:

"Dogs should wear well-fitting buckle or slip collars made of leather, fabric, or chain. *Special training collars, such as pinch collars or head collars, are not acceptable.*" 

Your instructors were dead wrong! We weren't even allowed to use halters, front hook or regular. They said if there was a medical reason that a dog couldn't wear a collar, a halter _might_ be considered on a case by case basis. The CGC test may not be that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but it should be administered correctly, or it's TOTALLY meaningless.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

This has been interesting for me - I enjoy reading about this and thinking about it. I was an avid reader of all things about the Morgan Horse in my youth. Since I am over 40...and this thread seems to be spinning about, I am going to lock it, and look forward to the next one like it (the first couple of pages and then, it happens...good threads do tend to devolve). 

Thank you!!!


----------

