# Developing Defensive drive



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

A little back story first,

Grim is 5 months old on the 3rd and we went to our second Schutzhund club meet yesterday. This was his first day however being introduced to the helper and a jute sleeve (not being worn but just presented). With that said Grim was a little aprehensive at first when we were seeing what his defensive drive was. He started to get the hang of it with a little coaxing and the realization that he was being encouraged to bark.

My question is what are ways to help develop Grim's defensive drive? Grim seems to have the early stages prey drive down. The helper and TD both said he did good, but they wanted to see Grim grab the sleeve when it was on the ground and vocal a little earlier.

We don't have a harness yet and I think that when maybe that harness vs his flat collar would be better as far as equipment goes. Any other suggestions would be appretiated.


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Defensive drive isnt for puppies, I think a year and a half is a minimum. As a pup you dont want to put them into defense or they could get scared for life.


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

He's a puppy. You don't want him in defense.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think everyone's expectations are a bit too high - sounds like he did well for a first time out. If the TD saw the potential in there for for doing serious work, relax, let him grow up and mature and have fun. 

Most dogs mature around 18 months to 3 years depending on their lines. So don't be in a hurry to try to bring the defense out. Push him when he is too young, and he may not be able to handle being put in a situation where he feels he needs to fight for his life. 

Best way to bring his defense drive out is to build his confidence and bring him along slowly in the work.


----------



## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

My dog started showing defensive drive the moment he realized protection is not a game and the helper is not his friend. But the dog has to be ready mentally and physically and that comes later. 

I would spend a lot of time focusing on good fundamentals, and only then introduce defense. When the dog is stressed, they revert to their fundamentals. When the fundamentals are solid the behavior you want will come out. If the fundamentals are shaky you will see some undesired behavior.

In other words, take your time, work in prey while he is young but build his confidence and make sure the fundamentals are there (strike, the grip, not being dirty, clean outs, etc). Then a good helper should know how to add enough pressure to push the dog into defense, but let the progression come naturally and trust in your helper and TD 

Good luck!


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

I wouldn't want my 5 month old worked in defense unless he naturally did that. Sounds like that club may not be a good fit. Too much too soon and ruin a good dog. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

I guess I should have wrote this before. There was no real pressure involved just the decoy walking from behind the blind and when Grim would bark he would run away.
The club TD is pretty well known has stressed at this stage it's all fun and games for the pups. I guess I was a little early asking the question haha. I also in no way was going to put pressure on Grim but was looking for ways play could help the early stages of defensive drive. I do appreciate the input from everyone


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

TheJakel said:


> I guess I should have wrote this before. There was no real pressure involved just the decoy walking from behind the blind and when Grim would bark he would run away.
> The club TD is pretty well known has stressed at this stage it's all fun and games for the pups. I guess I was a little early asking the question haha. I also in no way was going to put pressure on Grim but was looking for ways play could help the early stages of defensive drive. I do appreciate the input from everyone


Can you explain this part? I know nothing of schh but I have a dog that runs up to people and barks. Isn't the person running away after he barks going to make him want to do it all the time?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Man, your pup just got done teething! Forget defense for a year (give or take a few months) and focus on prey for rag work and OB exercises.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

lalachka said:


> Can you explain this part? I know nothing of schh but I have a dog that runs up to people and barks. Isn't the person running away after he barks going to make him want to do it all the time?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yes. And that's the point. By teaching the dog that movement on the dogs part, either by moving forward or barking, sends the "threat" away, they are more likely to repeat the behavior and become stronger in it. 

So when doing basic puppy work, the helper approaches the dog, when the dog barks, the helper runs away. The dog thinks " hey I scared him away!!!" And then feels more confident that he can make it happen again. It's a confidence building excersise. It can be modified using prey as well. The toy is still, the dog gets frustrated and barks, the toy moves. Dog learns that barking makes the toy move. Then the dog will bark to get the toy to move. 

At 5 mo I would not be doing this with a helper just yet. It's a bit early in almost every line to expect a puppy to scare someone off. 

My boy has very little prey drive. I am going to have to wait until he is much older before doing helper work. Instead I am "building" toy and play drive, using similar methods. Make the toy come alive, then stop movement and wait for a frustrated bark, then reward with a good tug. At 7 mo I still want my boy to approach people and be happy to meet new people, no suspicion just yet. That will come as he matures. 

We track( he rocks) and do focus work, basic OB, and play and hike. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Can you explain this part? I know nothing of schh but I have a dog that runs up to people and barks. Isn't the person running away after he barks going to make him want to do it all the time?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You don't want your dog to run up to people and bark. Schutzhund dogs aren't doing that to the average person. For a pup that's barking at random people, socialize socialize socialize. That way, he will learn how to differentiate between non threat and real threat. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

gsdsar said:


> Yes. And that's the point. By teaching the dog that movement on the dogs part, either by moving forward or barking, sends the "threat" away, they are more likely to repeat the behavior and become stronger in it.
> 
> So when doing basic puppy work, the helper approaches the dog, when the dog barks, the helper runs away. The dog thinks " hey I scared him away!!!" And then feels more confident that he can make it happen again. It's a confidence building excersise. It can be modified using prey as well. The toy is still, the dog gets frustrated and barks, the toy moves. Dog learns that barking makes the toy move. Then the dog will bark to get the toy to move.
> 
> ...


It also doesn't make my dog want to do it all the time. It builds her confidence to understand that her behavior can make the bad guy go away. So for a man with a whip, acting threatening, hiding behind trees etc. yah it makes her want to do it more. But when were out and about she's perfectly friendly/aloof with every day people and kids. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Capone22 said:


> It also doesn't make my dog want to do it all the time. It builds her confidence to understand that her behavior can make the bad guy go away. So for a man with a whip, acting threatening, hiding behind trees etc. yah it makes her want to do it more. But when were out and about she's perfectly friendly/aloof with every day people and kids.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I guess I got it but how does a dog know who's a threat and who's not? I thought they didn't get to make that decision? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

Capone22 said:


> You don't want your dog to run up to people and bark. Schutzhund dogs aren't doing that to the average person. For a pup that's barking at random people, socialize socialize socialize. That way, he will learn how to differentiate between non threat and real threat.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I know he should not be doing it, I'm working on it. That's why I didn't understand why that'd be reinforced in the scenario above. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

lalachka said:


> I know he should not be doing it, I'm working on it. That's why I didn't understand why that'd be reinforced in the scenario above.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Because in the training scenario, the helper is acting suspicious. Coming out from behind an object, walking slowly, giving eye contact, snapping a whip. 

If the helper just walked naturally in to the field, no contact or threat, the dog should stay quiet. 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Because in the training scenario, the helper is acting suspicious. Coming out from behind an object, walking slowly, giving eye contact, snapping a whip.
> 
> If the helper just walked naturally in to the field, no contact or threat, the dog should stay quiet.
> 
> ...


Ohhh, now I really got it. One more question, so the dogs DO get to decide when to protect (or bark in this case)?
I thought they only protect on command. I didn't think dogs can be trusted to make these decisions. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

lalachka said:


> I thought they only protect on command. I didn't think dogs can be trusted to make these decisions.


A lot of the time even people can't be trusted to decide when they need protections and how not to overdo it, let alone dogs


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

The dog knows the difference between the training field and at home. Just because the dog was biting a guy in a suit doesnt mean its aggressive or will protect. Thats why shutzhund dogs are considered sport dogs and personal protection dogs are real workers.


----------



## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

lalachka said:


> Ohhh, now I really got it. One more question, so the dogs DO get to decide when to protect (or bark in this case)?
> I thought they only protect on command. I didn't think dogs can be trusted to make these decisions.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It depends on the sport. In this exercise there is no command, correct. In schutzhund the protection part is on command. But in other sports, ring, Psa that is not always the case. For example there are exercises where if the decoy puts his hands on the handler aggressively the dog is allowed to bite. Or if someone gets too close to the basket that the dog was told to guard, the dog has to judge where is too close, and then allowed to bite. All of these exercises are taught so the dog understands the rules. But at home, a guy is breaking into your house, I don't want my dog laying there waiting for me to tell him he can bark at the guy. A good, well bred, stable nerved GSD should absolutely go into protective mode in certain scenarios without being given a command. If I tell them that's enough, it's ok, then they need to be quiet and calm down. Again this is certain, rare scenarios. Not because my neighbor came over or because we invited our friends over. Or because a guy in a hat is walking towards me on our walk. All of these things to rogue are obvious non threats. Normal people, that I welcome into my "area." I would hope, if the time ever came, that she would react differently to someone trying to rob me or break into our home. But there's no way to know for sure unless its tested. Does that make sense? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

lalachka said:


> I thought they only protect on command. I didn't think dogs can be trusted to make these decisions.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 

For sport, it depends on the scenario. What you have to realize, is that dogs are actually really good at 1) reading people's body language and determining a threat by how a person carries themselves. 2) Reading their handler and handlers body cues. Ever had a dog that you would swear could read your mind? The dog is actually picking up on the slightest change in your body. Breath, heart rate, finger twitch nose wrinkle. The dogs picking up on this. 

Quick story, I lived in an apartment. One night I was taking out my trash around midnight. I had my dog with me and while I was throwing my trash away, my dog was sitting next to me facing backwards (as she always did). The dumpsters were in a confined brick area. Someone came into the area and I did not hear them. Bad on me as I'm usually more aware of my surroundings than that. My dog didn't react to the man who walked in, but as soon as I heard the man it startled me. I jumped. That cued my dog to turn on. She put him in a bark and hold and backed him up. This only lasted millisecond's before I had reclaimed my dog. I spoke with the guy and luckily he said he had seen me around working my dog a lot and said he new he had just better back away from me slowly to not get bit. So in this instance, my dog didn't perceive this guy as a threat because he wasn't but my startled reaction was enough to turn her on.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

TheJakel said:


> A little back story first,
> 
> Grim is 5 months old on the 3rd and we went to our second Schutzhund club meet yesterday. This was his first day however being introduced to the helper and a jute sleeve (not being worn but just presented). With that said Grim was a little aprehensive at first when we were seeing what his defensive drive was. He started to get the hang of it with a little coaxing and the realization that he was being encouraged to bark.
> 
> ...


 
I'm going to play devils advocate here. I think puppies can be brought up in both prey and defense mixed together. A good decoy/helper can switch dogs between the two rather quickly. Now a lot of this depends on the individual puppy. IMO this theory of bringing them up in only prey is stemming from the way "sport" has gone. The dogs are prey monsters. Now a solid puppy can be introduced to some pressure. Age appropriate of course. The puppy stages to me are about building confidence and showing the puppy that it CAN"T lose. The only way to do that is to step up the "game", but always making sure the puppy wins. Again this does NOT apply for all puppies.


----------



## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm going to play devils advocate here. I think puppies can be brought up in both prey and defense mixed together. A good decoy/helper can switch dogs between the two rather quickly. Now a lot of this depends on the individual puppy. IMO this theory of bringing them up in only prey is stemming from the way "sport" has gone. The dogs are prey monsters. Now a solid puppy can be introduced to some pressure. Age appropriate of course. The puppy stages to me are about building confidence and showing the puppy that it CAN"T lose. The only way to do that is to step up the "game", but always making sure the puppy wins. Again this does NOT apply for all puppies.


I do actually agree with this. In the right hands with the right helper. 

I am a big proponent of letting the dog think its the strongest most powerful dog on the planet. 

When I play tug with my dog, I let them drag me all over. Let them think THEY are powerful enough to move me!! I love to see a helper, be good enough and humble enough, to let a baby win. Be it in SchH or SAR. A helper that " falls" to the ground and gets " dragged" across the field by a puppy, that's the helper I want working my dog. That's the person who puts his/her ego aside and let's the puppy think its the most amazing powerful dog!!! And that's a fun and confidence building session. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I love to see a helper, be good enough and humble enough, to let a baby win. Be it in SchH or SAR. A helper that " falls" to the ground and gets " dragged" across the field by a puppy, that's the helper I want working my dog. That's the person who puts his/her ego aside and let's the puppy think its the most amazing powerful dog!!! And that's a fun and confidence building session


I would hope that any helper would work a puppy like that...I love it when I see a pup give the helper a nasty glance as they prance off the field with the reward. 

One well known helper I did a seminar with, stressed the fact that the dog should be scaring the threat away and for the helper to run off the field after the pup(dog) wins the sleeve/tug/rag. Not the dog running off the field with the sleeve right after they won it. They can still take it away, but stay on the field for a bit to be sure the threat is gone.

Even if the young pup doesn't get a reward(if you are working the pup from a distance), just knowing they scared a threat away with their bark is a huge confidence builder. Let the dog know they own the territory they just fought for, and the threat retreated. I think this theory is good and surprised not more helpers do it this way.


----------



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

Right, This was a confidence building excercise. The helper( who's been around for while) didn't use a whip and wasn't wearing the sleave, wasn't making any overt, loud noises and was kind of hopping around and acting suspicious etc. The TD had also said that they like to build both drives like gsdsar and cobra were explaining.. After that excercise we imdediatly switched to a prey drive excercise that the pup excelled in.
The pup has prey drive and we work on that intermittently through out the day and its integrated into his basic obediance and play with flirtpoles and rags and toys.

So if I could rephrase my initial question into: To those that support equal drive development, what are low (very low) ways to promote defensive drive during play?


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

TheJakel said:


> Right, This was a confidence building excercise. The helper( who's been around for while) didn't use a whip and wasn't wearing the sleave, wasn't making any overt, loud noises and was kind of hopping around and acting suspicious etc. The TD had also said that they like to build both drives like gsdsar and cobra were explaining.. After that excercise we imdediatly switched to a prey drive excercise that the pup excelled in.
> The pup has prey drive and we work on that intermittently through out the day and its integrated into his basic obediance and play with flirtpoles and rags and toys.
> 
> So if I could rephrase my initial question into: To those that support equal drive development, what are low (very low) ways to promote defensive drive during play?



It's not really something you can do yourself. It is a very bad idea to work your own dog in defense and if its play, then it's not defense. 

My question to you would be, what do you mean by defense drive? I kinda get the feeling we might be talking about different things. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

volcano said:


> The dog knows the difference between the training field and at home. Just because the dog was biting a guy in a suit doesnt mean its aggressive or will protect. Thats why shutzhund dogs are considered sport dogs and personal protection dogs are real workers.


 
Lol....


----------



## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

mycobraracr said:


> I'm going to play devils advocate here. I think puppies can be brought up in both prey and defense mixed together. A good decoy/helper can switch dogs between the two rather quickly. Now a lot of this depends on the individual puppy. IMO this theory of bringing them up in only prey is stemming from the way "sport" has gone. The dogs are prey monsters. Now a solid puppy can be introduced to some pressure. Age appropriate of course. The puppy stages to me are about building confidence and showing the puppy that it CAN"T lose. The only way to do that is to step up the "game", but always making sure the puppy wins. Again this does NOT apply for all puppies.


This is similar to Harves table training technique. Dog on table, scares off the bad guy at a distance. He doesnt always wait till the dog is over a year either.


----------



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

cobra, 
you're probably correct . I gues what i'm asking for is confidence building excerciese. I had no intentions on staging any scenarios that would directly refelect any defensive or pseudo defensive positions taken by the dog initiated myself or anyone else that isn't a profesional.
Socialization wise he's very confident. Will hop on or go under any agility equipment, go anywhere with me I ask. Great in public, other dogs etc. 

So are there any confidence building excercises/ play that don't directly corelate with defensive drive but are also in a way to build that confidence foundation that would later be exhibited in sch scenarios.


----------



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

TheJakel said:


> cobra,
> you're probably correct . I gues what i'm asking for is confidence building excerciese. I had no intentions on staging any scenarios that would directly refelect any defensive or pseudo defensive positions taken by the dog initiated myself or anyone else that isn't a profesional.
> Socialization wise he's very confident. Will hop on or go under any agility equipment, go anywhere with me I ask. Great in public, other dogs etc.
> 
> So are there any confidence building excercises/ play that don't directly corelate with defensive drive but are also in a way to build that confidence foundation that would later be exhibited in sch scenarios.


 
I try and build confidence in every way possible. Take your dog out onto a play ground and have it climb all over, through, up, down, swim through stuff. This builds confidence. Always make it successful. Even if you have to help the puppy at first. Do you play tug with your dog? When it starts to pull or shake, go with it. Through yourself around like the puppy is the one doing it. Tap into you inner actor and make it think it's the one doing it to you. All types of this type of stuff can help with confidence.

Edit- Also, when playing tug, have different sounds and objects around. Pick the puppy up, swing it around, "fall" on it. Getting it use to all different types of situations and body positions.


----------



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

We do play tug and I always let him "win".. But I now understand lwhat you were saying about acting it out more, I def could do that more. I remember seeing a leerburg video about "the correct way to play tug" but I can't find it.

I'll start adding those elements in your edit: to playing tug. Thanks again.


----------



## Sprout (Apr 23, 2013)

Every dog develops mentaly at a different rate, period!
Breed, I've found, also plays a difference.

Both my English Cockers are field bred. Both were in the field and duck blind hunting and hunting well by six months.
By two years they were both hunting champions.
Different dogs being asked to different things I know.

And I agree that allowing your dog to develop mentally and emotionally first is a must when protection training is involved.
Obedience and confidence first. 
Let your kid be a kid and a family member first.

Then only you can decide when they are ready to start and understand protection training.

Good luck and have fun!


----------



## erfunhouse (Jun 8, 2013)

I think it was just a misuse of words. When this was presented in our evaluation I was told "encourage him, praise him for going after the toy" and that "He's in a new environment, he doesn't know me (trainer) and he doesn't know that he CAN go after the toy, tell him he can!"...and sure enough Sabo was after it. I dont think it's "defensive drive" so much as testing the dogs innate drives--will he go after something in a new enviornment or is the basic stress of the "new" going to freak him out?


----------



## TheJakel (May 2, 2013)

As an update,

Yes it was a little of both, misuse of words in my question but also along the same lines as what cobra was talking about. The TD believes in developing both drives at the pace of the individual dog. My question though should have been re phrased into what it was the last time, where I wanted to develop confidence.

Anyway, with conitnued exaggerated play with the tug has lead to his confidence developing nicely.
On the field with the help it was a completly different story than the first time. Any doubts I had were quickly erased. Maybe it had more to do with him knowing what he was supposed to do this time. He barked and pulled and scared off the "bad guy". then In the prey drive vignette (i'll call it ) he chased the pad and was able to get some good grips. I don't think ive ever seen him as happy as he was when we ran off the field with the pad and carrying it to the truck after getting his last full grip.


----------

