# question for experienced helpers



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

It is very difficult to find an experienced helper, a helper that can read a dog and one that can recognize a serious dog vs a sport dog. I have a helper who is very knowledgeable about sport dogs but lacks experience with a real serious dog. He has altered his approach with my dog because of input from a seminar we attended and the results are great. I never need to use a whip, or a prong, present a real threat and you get a long deep hard biteand a serious response. She is not equipment oriented, her focus is on the man. So here is my question why does the dog need to run around the field with the sleeve? Next question what is the purpose of the cradle of the dog when she has the sleeve, is it necessary.
My dog will bite the sleeve run for a short distance turn spit the sleeve and keep her eye on the man. The same will occur when I try to cradel her when she has the sleeve never takes her eye off the man. Her outs are clean and she is very clear headed.
I would like to understand the reasoning behind these 2 exercises and the implications for shutzhound. We are presently working on IPO1.
Thanks inadvance for your input.
Laurel


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

One implication is that I wouldn't want to be a helper with your dog. 

Most "serious" dogs that I have run across "wanted" the helper and the heck with the sleeve. 

More like a potential K9 dog as one old time German judge explained it to me one time. The dog will bite anywhere not just the sleeve.

Seems like a personality thing?


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

lsatov said:


> It is very difficult to find an experienced helper, a helper that can read a dog and one that can recognize a serious dog vs a sport dog. I have a helper who is very knowledgeable about sport dogs but lacks experience with a real serious dog. He has altered his approach with my dog because of input from a seminar we attended and the results are great. I never need to use a whip, or a prong, present a real threat and you get a long deep hard biteand a serious response. She is not equipment oriented, her focus is on the man. So here is my question why does the dog need to run around the field with the sleeve? Next question what is the purpose of the cradle of the dog when she has the sleeve, is it necessary.
> My dog will bite the sleeve run for a short distance turn spit the sleeve and keep her eye on the man. The same will occur when I try to cradel her when she has the sleeve never takes her eye off the man. Her outs are clean and she is very clear headed.
> I would like to understand the reasoning behind these 2 exercises and the implications for shutzhound. We are presently working on IPO1.
> Thanks inadvance for your input.
> Laurel


This is a really good question (s). I asked it as well a few years ago, and still getting my mind around it in regards to different dogs. 
In my limited experience with my dogs, it is more important sometimes to get the "serious" dog to hold/carry than a "happy" dog. The dog is able to channel his aggression into the sleeve and transfer to prey. 
What I have seen is that doing this makes for a calmer dog during the bitework.

Now.... maybe someone that explained it to me can step in and make it more clear


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Thanks for your response, that does make sense. But my serious dog is very calm she has this on off switch. Her outs are immediate and clean, we can heel away she is very calm and focused on what is asked of her. We can walk side by side with the helper never giving any indication that she would rebite or bite anything other than the sleeve. When the helper is not perceived as a threat she does not regard him as one. 

So the 2nd part to my question is this an exercise that I need for the sport or is an exercise as you mentioned to help the dog channel its drives?


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would say it is to transition the drive, but you really don't have to prance her around or cradle her if she's calmly gripping with a deep hold. 

My dog use to spit the sleeve too, but then when he really had to work for it(blind search exercises) it became a bit higher value so he wanted to possess it. He was never one that would willingly prance around and cradling him didn't last very long, because he wanted to get the action going again.

Biting the sleeve is a stress relief as well.
When the helper fights her would she just as soon spit the sleeve or will she stay on until she is commanded to out?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

gagsd said:


> This is a really good question (s). I asked it as well a few years ago, and still getting my mind around it in regards to different dogs.
> In my limited experience with my dogs, it is more important sometimes to get the "serious" dog to hold/carry than a "happy" dog. The dog is able to channel his aggression into the sleeve and transfer to prey.
> What I have seen is that doing this makes for a calmer dog during the bitework.
> 
> Now.... maybe someone that explained it to me can step in and make it more clear


I agree. I have a more serious dog and I like to see him be able to hold, carry, bring the sleeve back to the helper, etc. For me it's not about possessing the sleeve or demonstrating that my dog has such a deep bite the sleeve is jammed into his jaws, but if he is really quick about "spitting" a sleeve that tells me he's too edgy, working too high in defense and thinking the helper is always provoking his personal space. He needs to be able to overpower and win and channel that into a sleeve. I want the dog to understand that HE is in control, and not be constantly worried about the helper and in a heightened state of defense that prevents him from being calm, clear, and confident. During his best sessions he will hold and carry, not because we are working on that aspect but working on bringing out more prey drive/balancing drives and more confidence in the dog in general. When he has that confidence and power he will channel it into the sleeve and also isn't worried about the helper being half the field away and needing to spit his sleeve and go at him. Sometimes I trot him in a circle and when he circles back toward the helper, the helper will make a movement and the dog will shake the sleeve (the grip doesn't shift, not like dogs that will start chewing and tearing at the sleeve). I like to see that sort of behavior. 

I think people need to read how the dog behaves with the sleeve and what it says about the dog's frame of mind and how he's being worked. I see some people obsess about their dog holding and carrying a sleeve as if they are training the dog to do it but for me those behaviors are indicators of other important aspects of training, if that makes sense? So I want my dog to hold and carry but I'm not training him *to* do it, I'm working on other things during the guarding, biting, and active parts of bitework and when *those* things are going well, I see the dog channel certain behaviors with the sleeve and a more calm and confident picture overall.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Lies, very post.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Great responses I am now understanding the significance of carrying the sleeve.
When she bites the sleeve she does not come off until told to do so. When the sleeve is slipped to her ( I think that is the term) she takes the sleeve calmly does a little prance in a small half circle towards me stands beside me and will drop the sleeve. Ready for what ever comes next, she is very calm at this point. Not worried about the helper but aware of where he is.
I can get her to hold the sleeve with a command but do I need to do this as her drives appear to be well balanced and she is very clear headed. 
I just do not want to worry about this if in the bigger picture it is not an issue based on her behavior during protection.
Laurel


----------



## schh3fh2 (Oct 12, 2011)

Great post by Lies

I can only add why we do this for young dogs in my club, especially dogs that tend to be sharper...

During the trial routine the dog changes drives many time (if they are working correctly) The carry and craddle helps the dog to learn how to shift in and out of specific drives and the helper and handler can dictate which drive the dog shifts into.

Example, the dog runs blinds, prey, comes into blind 6, fighting, callout, obedience, escape, prey, reattack, fighting, back transport, obedience....etc....

So in training with young dogs, we will carry, cradle, out, kick the sleeve, helper can stimulate either prey or defence at this time and can switch up between the 2. Sometimes, we carry, craddle, out, sit stay calm, helper slowly pick up the sleeve, step back and stand still, and then I command to start, Dog barks and helper reacts and again helper can determine and switch between the drives the dog is in depending on his posture and presence. 

These exercises teach the dog how to handle, in their head, switching between drives and being comfortable in all drives...

If the dog stays too much in fighting drive all the time, control will become a big problem later...


Just my opinion

Frank


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

I have a clear understanding of the rationale for carrying the sleeve and the cradle it is a reflection of the dogs frame of mind. Which will provide info to handler and helper how to change things if necessary

I understand the transitions back and forth different drives, and is an exercise that can serve as a foundation to go back to if needed.

thanks everyone for the clarification
Laurel


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

schh3fh2 said:


> If the dog stays too much in fighting drive all the time, control will become a big problem later...
> 
> 
> Just my opinion
> ...


:rofl: As one who has experienced this first hand. :crazy:


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well ms journey mom , I know the dog , know the line so very very well --- no one even asked 'what is the decoy doing' . I am sure that Journey focuses on the decoy as long as he is active . I know that this dog has high prey and I also know that this dog has a strong fight drive , not defense or fear driven, in fact it took a bit of stimulation in the beginning to find her (high) threshold and get her out of the game -- so not a defensive approach with retreat or flight in the cards. Yet this dog is as clear as clear can be . Had same experience with Kilo, same with Simon and Chunko , same with LeRoy, same with Kohl, same with and even Linda Shaw's Timmy who was a "my"/american show mix . 
You've had those real experiences in your orchard and saw the dog in real action -- yet totally responsive to you.
Do you want to see the dog as friend and playmate to the decoy? or do you want to see the decoy just as that , a provocation - as long as he is a "good boy" she will be totally neutral to him. Not friend. Neutral . We did so much of this kind of training in French ring and especially in Campagne when all the French experts came over . 
If your decoy dilutes his actions - so will the dog . He ramps it up so will the dog . Rkiv in Oklahoma Max Prisons , previously RCMP , just sprang to mind - I can not fathom him prancing around and bringing the chair he has just ripped out of some cons flailing hands back to him to "let's play some more" . Yet , again , Rkiv you could take absolutely everywhere and you would never know the dog was anything outside a very fit , obedient GSD . (he lived in a home , in a community )
craddling is to let the dog feel you are not competing for the prize , makes them "know" you and you them. You can have her at your side and just stroke her calmly down her side while holding the prize. If you are working her nearby I will show you.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

there are lines which are initially slow to bring on "the fight" unless needed and then they committ fully , but when it is over it is really really over -- not defensive nor reactive , known as a character trait coming down from the Wurtemburgers channeled through B (and other D E F and G ) litters Lierberg. Useful in herding to challenge that ram that confronts -- you apply physical and pyscological force , WIN , and then settle down quickly so as not to ferment unrest in the other sheep which will be a big problem.


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

I was wondering when i would hear from you.
Yes you are correct about the decoy and his behavior and journey's responses. When the decoy is active, so is she, when he is neutral so is she. When she commits she is all in and then when it is over it is over, like I said previous she has an on and off switch and always is very clear in the head. So that is why my question why does she need to prance around the field with the sleeve?
She has a high prey drive, and fight drive but needs to be real. She will bring to the table what is needed to get the job done.

Cradling did not realize that it was about competition. When she has the sleeve she comes to me stands beside me like saying hey mom look what I brought you.
Yes she is totally responsive to me on the field and in real situations I can not see me ever having a control issue with her. 

thanks for you input as always
Laurel


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

she doesn't need to --"Cradling did not realize that it was about competition. When she has the sleeve she comes to me stands beside me like saying hey mom look what I brought you" couldn't think of a better response -- so with the sleeve in her mouth do a bit of a circle so that she is facing the decoy -- with him being neutral -- and then you stroke her like you smoothing a wrinkle out of a linen skirt . not exciting to her , calming -- have her look the decoy - lol I almost alien !!! -- in the eye while calmly holding the decoy , you could even have her march past him with the sleeve -- and he is to be still and neutral . Come back around , as you would in a transport and have her drop the sleeve and walk away with the decoy , being neutral - just like the "stick" being placed in your possession and you walk with the decoy.

this keeps your control in balance -- fight finished and not sleeve or equipment obsessive.

so did you get any wine from your orchard this year?

It will be really really interesting to see what "uncle" Sumo produced --


----------



## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

when she comes to me with the sleeve she drops it at my feet and is looking at the decoy. she is very calm. I could ask her to hold the sleeve and she would. Does she need to hold the sleeve vs stands by me very calm drops the sleeve and looks in direction of decoy.
I just do no want to complicate. keep it simple.

Oh you just brought back a memory, do you remember when journey was still with you as a pup and some one rang your doorbell and you had journey in your arm and when you went to the door she started to bark. she is so true to form.

Now talking about wine, the vineyard is being used for ice wine so the grapes are still on the vine waiting for the correct temp -8C. 

It will be very interesting to watch uncle sumo's progeny and look for those amazing family traits.
Training at the club is finished until march so maybe we can arrange some training up in your area with your decoy.


----------

