# Bi Color



## daviddrena

Will breeding solid black to black/tan almost guarantee at least one bi color?


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## Amaruq

Not necessarily. What colors are the four grandparents?


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## gagsd

Only if the blk/tan dog carries bi-color. 
The black dog can not have anything except black. The black/tan dog coud carry another copy of the b/t, or black, or bi-color.


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## littledmc17

My Brady came from a Bi-color and and all black


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## Doc

Solid Black dog = BB or Bb
Blue dog = bb

Black and tan = BT or Bt ???

Bi-color and/or saddle is determined by a different gene and some say they are the same.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DocSolid Black dog = BB or Bb
> Blue dog = bb


Not quite. Blue is not a color. It is a dilution. A blue dog doesn't have one black gene and one blue gene. It has 2 black genes, then a separate set of recessive genes altogether that cause the black to be diluted to blue. The blue dilution can occur in any color and affects only black pigment. So there are sables that have blue instead of black, black/tans that have blue instead of black, bi-colors that have blue instead of black, blacks that have blue instead of black. Liver dilution works the same, diluting black pigment to brown (and this is the exact same dilution gene that causes chocolate Labs).

Extension of black pigment causing a black/tan (or sable for that matter) to be a "blanket" pattern or "saddle" pattern is a different gene from overall color.

Bi-color is undetermined. Some believe it to be a separate color (like black, black/tan, sable) some believe it to be a separate gene on the extension locus (same that determines saddle or blanket) yet different from the general genes that determine extension of black pigment causing saddles/blankets.

Personally, my experience leads me to fall into the 1st category of Bi-color being a separate color.


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## Chris Wild

To the original question, NO breeding a black/tan to a black will not guarantee a Bi-color. The genes don't work that way. IF the black/tan carries Bi as it's recessive, statistically some Bis should occur in the litter and the others will be black/tan. There will be no blacks. 

IF the black/tan is homozygous black/tan, all pups will be black/tan. IF the black/tan carries black as it's recessive, statistically half the pups will be black and half will be black/tan.

Black/tans with black recessive often tend to be darker (blanket pattern) black/tans rather than lighter (saddle pattern) black/tans. And some dark black/tans can have such extensive black markings that they can look similar to a Bi, but they are not Bis, they are black/tan.


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## daviddrena

does anyone have any pics of a black/tan that looks similiar to a bi.


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## pupresq

Lucia's Falkor is a melanistic blanket black and tan and looks as close to a bicolor as any BT I've seen. Gorgeous!!!







My dog Grace is an example of a more tan blanket black and tan.

Link to Falkor pics 

More Falkor pics 

And Grace:









She's still pretty dark but not as dark as he is. In his case, he's got a BT allele and a black allele because his mom is black. I don't know what Grace's genetics are.


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## gagsd

I _think _a good way to differentiate a bicolor adult is that they will have a black belly..... somebody correct me if wrong


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## pupresq

I'm curious about that too because I posted pics the other day of my foster boy Griffin, who I'm pretty sure is a bicolor, but Chris said she thought he looked like a very melanistic blanket black and tan. I had thought the distinguishing characteristics were the tarheels and penciling on the toes, but if there's other stuff to look for I'm ready to get educated!







She's one of the best on the board with coat genetics. Oh Chris! Help!


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## Amaruq

Kayla is a black and tan (blanket back):





















Sorry for the quality, before I had my first digi.


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## gagsd

Blanket back....
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/290879.html

and a bi-color (she is mine and has tarheels, pencil marks and a black belly---she does have tan cheek marks)....
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny_pictures/290879.html


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## rokanhaus

First thing I look for to tell a very dark black and tan from a bi-color is red behind the ears....if there is red behind the ears, not a bi-color no matter how dark the dog is.


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## Catu

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1Blanket back....
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/290879.html
> 
> and a bi-color (she is mine and has tarheels, pencil marks and a black belly---she does have tan cheek marks)....
> http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny_pictures/290879.html


You repeated the first link...



> Originally Posted By: rokanhausFirst thing I look for to tell a very dark black and tan from a bi-color is red behind the ears....if there is red behind the ears, not a bi-color no matter how dark the dog is.


Good! You learn something new everyday!


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## BlackGSD

> Originally Posted By: rokanhausFirst thing I look for to tell a very dark black and tan from a bi-color is red behind the ears....if there is red behind the ears, not a bi-color no matter how dark the dog is.


That is what I though too. But I was informed on this very board not long ago that that is not true.

I though that since this dog has light color on his neck that he would not be a Bi-color and was told that he IS a Bi-color. ( He also has more tan on the fronts and backs of his hind legs than a lot of Bi-colors.) 

(Or do you mean ON the actual ears themselves?)










*I would call this dog a Bi-color.*


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## gagsd

Oops, here is the correct link.... 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/518282.html

I think the older picture posted above is in fact a bi-color, but what would be called a faded bi-color.


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## rokanhaus

I meant behind the base of the ears. If I see red there, not a bi-color.


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## SunCzarina

For the 5 years this dog was with me, members of the other GSD board all said Luther was a bi-colored. Now I've been told recently here he was a blanket back - becuase he has too much red on his head.

Tar heels, black down past the knee, pencil toes, no tan/red behind the ears. I'm still saying he was a bi-color. 


















Always loved his ears, all black except for right in the middle. He was my Handsome Jack (or Jerk depending on his mood)


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## Chris Wild

Luther looks like a faded bi-color to me.

This site does a pretty good job of explaining the colors:
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html


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## nathalie1977

Ok, so is Freyja a bicolor then or is she a B&T?


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## daviddrena

A little confused looking back at the bi-colors lines posted on the ped. database, I didn't see any other bi-colors in his/her genes


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## onyx'girl

Freyja looks like a bi-color to me. 
Onyx is a bi-color, and has some grey in her undercoat in certain areas, and tan undercoat in others. She also has white diamond on her chest,& on the tip of her tail and some white on her paws, which washed out the toe penciling. I was hoping she would get stronger pigment as she aged, but is the exact same markings as when she was a baby.


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## gagsd

> Originally Posted By: daviddrenaA little confused looking back at the bi-colors lines posted on the ped. database, I didn't see any other bi-colors in his/her genes


Her sire was a blanket black/tan who carried bi-color.


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## Doc

Where are all the Bodo von Laerburg dogs of today ......


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## BJDimock

This thread is very interesting to me!
I have always called Ilan a melanistic black and tan. Corrct me if I'm wrong please!

Wow! I haven't really compared her to her pup pics in a while. She has faded out in the haunches!
















The best back view of Ilan I could get on short notice!









Now Fenna, who has been called a Bi-color. Her belly is still black in the center. The red behind the ears and very faint red at the cheeks appeared after her first heat cycle.








Fenna, closest to the camera, next to Ilan.








Fenna








Fenna and Ilan. (Ilan Blinked!)








Fenna has no tan on her chest at all. Is she the melanistic black and tan?


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## BJDimock

Fenna's toe stenciling disappeared after her heat cycle as well.


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## aubie

Although she's only six months, I've been told Anna has the perfect markings of a bicolor....her coloring has changed little since we got her at 12 weeks, but she does have a small white spot (a few hairs) on her chest.


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## angelaw

bj's dogs last pic,left looks almost bicolor but ALOT more blanket now dog on right looks blanket bl/tan

anna is a bicolor and a very cute one at that!


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## BJDimock

Fenna could have been Anna until after her first heat. I wonder how much more she will lighten up.


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## aubie

Hmm...I wonder. Like I said, she's changed little in coloring since we've had her at 12wks. The only thing we've noticed are some little brown hairs at the base of her ears that you have to kinda look for, but aren't seen just by looking at her.


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## lhczth

Anna looks like a BI.


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## sgtmom52

I've always considered Chance a bicolor, but sometimes I am confused by all the details. He has tan hairs in his undercoat on his tail and on his neck. Does this still make him a bicolor? Also the top of his head & cheeks have red hairs mixed in with the black that you can only see at certain angles or in certain lighting. 

Chance's mother was a sable and his father all black. All 5 of his litter mates were all black.

This is a link to his pedigree ~ http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/593011.html

Opinions as to bicolor or not appreciated! Thanks!


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## Chris Wild

Chance is a bi-color.


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## onyx'girl

Chance is a beautiful bi-color, I love his rich pigment on the legs. Onyx looks just like him in the abdomen area and she also has colors in her undercoat.


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## SunCzarina

Chance looks bicolored to me - as it was explained to me, bicolors have black heels (tar heels), black on their feet, the black on their legs extends past the knee and they don't have a saddle.


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## aubie

Wow! He looks like a male version of Anna!!!!


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## sgtmom52

They really do look similar! They look like they could be siblings! And Chance is only a little more than a month older than Anna. Chance is probably going to be a little guy ~ he is 8 months old today and is only about 50 pounds right now. His parents were only in the mid 60's pound range. 

I think the Anna is beautiful ~ however I am partial to the bi-colors and blacks.


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## aubie

Too bad you're like over 12hrs away from me! I'd love to see these two together!

I never knew about bicolors until Anna, but now I love them. I was looking for a more standard blck/tan but I'm sooo happy with the bicolor!


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## Catu

Bicolor is my second preferred color. In an ideal world I'd own a male black sable and a female bicolor.


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## onyx'girl

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiBicolor is my second preferred color. In an ideal world I'd own a male black sable and a female bicolor.


Agreed







my two favorite colors as well!


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## Avamom

We just pulled this girl....she is solid black except for tan penciling on her feet and a tan circle under her tail. I thought she might be a bicolor but now not sure if she is a solid black with just some tan penciling or just a very dark sable??

Will try to get better pics, her feet are cut off...she has tan under her tail too!

What color would ya'll call her?


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## Chris Wild

Bi-color.


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## Avamom

Excellent! Thanks Chris...I told the foster home, you would know!


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## BritneyP

Yep- that dog is a TRUE bi-color! I have a girl that looks just like her.


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## GranvilleGSD

Maybe I missed this somewhere or maybe it's on another post, but when you have newborn pups, how do you differentiate between a bicolor and a black/tan. Would you just go by tarheels and toe stencling? Or are there other ways to tell?


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## rjvamp

So adorable. I've not seen a bi-color GSD before with markings like that. Thanks for sharing.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: shepherdmom12Maybe I missed this somewhere or maybe it's on another post, but when you have newborn pups, how do you differentiate between a bicolor and a black/tan. Would you just go by tarheels and toe stencling? Or are there other ways to tell?


At birth black/tans will still have some pretty distinct, although small, tan markings on the feet, and maybe face and chest. Whereas bi-colors at birth are pretty much all black. Any tan is going to be very minimal, and tan on the feet may not be present at all yet. So it's typically not hard to tell a black/tan from a bi-color at birth, but can be hard to tell a bi-color from a solid black at birth. The giveaway that a newborn is a bi-color and not a solid black will be the tan around the anus.

Of course, knowing the genetics helps too. If you get a really dark black/tan in a litter that doesn't have the possibility of being bi-color because neither parent carries the bi-color gene, then you know it's a really, really melanistic black/tan, not a bi-color.


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## rjvamp

Okay - well now I know I confused black and tans with bi-colors  Thanks for educating me Chris! This is my first bi-color then.


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## Smithie86

Stunning. Not many true bi-color girls. Odeta (aka crazy fannie) is one as well.


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## Chris Wild

I'm sort of confused on the comments regarding "true" bi-color??









What do people mean by that? It sounds like it's being implied that regular bi-colors aren't really bi-colors and only melanistic bi-colors are bi-colors? Which of course isn't correct.


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## selzer

I was under the impression that a bi-color was all black save some tan low on the legs. A white spot may be on the chest, but no tan on the face, ears, chest, etc. 

The melanistic black and tan sounds like a blanket back black and tan. So there is no saddle. But there may be some tan markings on the ears, face, and on the chest. This is a guess. I have never heard of a melanistic black and tan.

I am often surprised that a lot of the dogs labeled bi-colors have a lot of tan on them. Perhaps these are what is meant by bi-colors that are not true bi-colors. 

It is interesting anyway.


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## selzer

I consider Rush a blanket back black and tan. There are no tar heels or stenciling on the toes, the tan goes too far up his legs. His face was all black at six months. Even at six months he has red behind his ears. His sire was black and his dam was black and tan. Let me know if I am wrong about him. I have heard others say pups like him were bi-colors and I figure they will still lighten up a bit.

Rushie at six months:










Rushie at two and a half years:


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## angelaw

and you are correct, he's a blanket


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: selzerI was under the impression that a bi-color was all black save some tan low on the legs. A white spot may be on the chest, but no tan on the face, ears, chest, etc.
> 
> The melanistic black and tan sounds like a blanket back black and tan. So there is no saddle. But there may be some tan markings on the ears, face, and on the chest. This is a guess. I have never heard of a melanistic black and tan.
> 
> I am often surprised that a lot of the dogs labeled bi-colors have a lot of tan on them. Perhaps these are what is meant by bi-colors that are not true bi-colors.


Bi-colors can have tan on the chest, cheeks, eyebrows, under the chin and most of the way up the legs. Those do not preclude a dog from being a bi-color. While I agree that often melanistic black/tans are mislabled as bi-colors, a dog doesn't have to be as dark as the last one pictured here to be a bi-color. Yet it sounds like the reference to "true bicolor" regarding the one who is so melanistic she could be a solid black with bleed through if not for the tan vent means only dogs that dark are really bi-colors, and that simply isn't true.

Linda Shaw does a good job of showing how much variance there can be in bi-colors and they're still bi-colors.

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html


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## Chris Wild

Yes, Rushie is a black/tan.


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## gagsd

Maybe the references to "true bicolor" are more along the lines of, "WOWZA, now THAT is a bi-color!"
(Not meaning that dogs must be that dark to be a bicolor.)


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## Chris Wild

Could be! That's why I'm asking because that meaning would make sense.


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## Dee Phillips

Rushie is a blk/tan saddleback, looks just like my stud. I wish AKC would set a standard for bi-color as this discussion goes on alot and no one can agree.


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## SunCzarina

I'm curious about Rushie too - when I think of blanket back I think of dogs more like Dawn's (littledmc) Brady - Brady is all black on the shoulders. 

Curious because of Otto - he has a saddle - sort of I think I dunno, you tell me. He doesn't have any silver in it, it's all red and black


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## rjvamp

I love the mask and ear colors so amazing! - looks like a Bat on his head - like from Batman except upside down or it could be right side up


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## SunCzarina

LOL, I never noticed but from that angle it does look like a batman emblem. I guess it's rightside up when he's upsidedown? He has one on his chest too. He's a different looking dog, that's for sure, haven't seen another one with black eyeliner and no black eyebrows.


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## rjvamp

He is beautiful  Batman is one of my favorite super heroes and I was amazed when I saw that! I had a corgi mix as a child that had what looked like an eagle with outstretched wings on his chest.


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## jmopaso

My no doubt about it bi-color bitch is from a black/red saddle back female and a mostly black bi-color dutch import male. She is dropdead gorgeous. I would post a pic if i could figure out how.


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## jmopaso

I see that you have duct tape, try Gorilla Tape, you will be converted.


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## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1Maybe the references to "true bicolor" are more along the lines of, "WOWZA, now THAT is a bi-color!"
> (Not meaning that dogs must be that dark to be a bicolor.)





> Originally Posted By: Chris WildCould be! That's why I'm asking because that meaning would make sense.


this is what i mean when i use the term. for me, a "true bi color" is a dog that you don't have to ask whether or not its a bi color or b/t blanket - it would just be obvious that there isn't anything else that it could be (except for some of the solid blacks with bleed through which i've only recently learned about)


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## Doc

My sable dog


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## Doc

My Bi Color dog


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## djpohn

Here is my bi-colored foster momma!


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## Fodder

ok ok, here's my too


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## onyx'girl

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaiBicolor is my second preferred color. In an ideal world I'd own a male black sable and a female bicolor.


I will share my ideal world!


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