# Physical correction and force for "hard" dogs?



## jae

I had lunch with an old friend the other day, he is now a police officer in Florida. I had the dog with me, so we obviously got on the topic of K9 units, how to get training, how they train, and their use on the force. He isn't a K9 handler, just an officer. This is his experience with working and watching them. One thing that struck me as sad, is that he said their police force will physically kick a dog if they get distracted during a drill or during an actual chase/track in the field. He said he has seen a dog growl and snap at his handler more than once, but they always seem to be perfectly content and more than happy to do what the handler asks even after that occurs. I voiced my displeasure at them kicking a dog for corrections, and his reply was "well, these are hard, real, working dogs, so you need to use force with them to keep them in line"

That doesn't seem right. Maybe someone here with more experience could shed some light on this subject?


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## Kyleigh

That sounds like something I heard from someone about digging. If you don't want your dog to dig, fill the hole with water and when the dog goes near it, hold him under water until he is no longer struggling, then let him go. He'll never try and dig again. 

Logical? Absolutely NOT ... Old school? Probably. And I'd like to think we have advanced a LOT higher in our understanding and working with these beautiful creatures. 

I'm sorry you had to hear that, it bothers me when I hear people talking like that, I get that "gut clenching" and want to smack them!


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## Wolfgeist

Kicking a dog is abusing a dog, not discipline or guidance.


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## PatchonGSD

Can someone define what a "hard" dog is please?


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## qbchottu

I think a lot of people here would be fairly shocked if they saw firsthand how many of the dogs they admire and revere are/were trained. Dogs "airplaned", dogs picked up and slammed on the ground for breaking a down, dogs whose feet never touch the ground because they are being strung up by a prong and so on. It is kept quiet, but make no mistake, heavy compulsion is regularly used with these dogs in all types of work and sport. Think about it this way, if you are working with a dog and your life depends on him, you HAVE to make sure the dog does what it is intended to do. Heavy compulsion plays a good part in that. Not making a judgement call on it either way by saying it is good or bad, but it happens.


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## qbchottu

PatchonGSD said:


> Can someone define what a "hard" dog is please?


A dog that can take a good correction. A dog that recovers quickly after a heavy correction. A dog that is resilient and works through the pain/corrections. A dog that is tough in mind, perhaps a little independent minded. A dog that will bring the aggression and has high thresholds to pain. These dogs can tolerate a lot and usually require a heavy hand. A clicker and some treats won't be adequate to properly train and manage some of these dogs. These dogs will need correction and management devices like the prong and shock.


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## PatchonGSD

qbchottu said:


> A dog that can take a good correction. A dog that recovers quickly after a heavy correction. A dog that is resilient and works through the pain/corrections. A dog that is tough in mind, perhaps a little independent minded. A dog that will bring the aggression and has high thresholds to pain. These dogs can tolerate a lot and usually require a heavy hand. A clicker and some treats won't be adequate to properly train and manage some of these dogs. These dogs will need correction and management devices like the prong and shock.


Thanks.


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## martemchik

I wonder how "hard" the kick is. When my dog gets distracted I can simply nudge him with my foot to get his attention. I'm in no way punting my dog, or hurting him but once in a while he'll try and nip at my leg. He won't growl or bark at me, but he does try to "play" with my foot.

Whenever someone that doesn't really understand dog training, just watches it, especially for something as stressful as police work, they might question some of the tactics used. Some of the "old school" methods do work better for truly hard dogs and until you've had one of those dogs I don't think its right to judge how someone trains it. My dog wouldn't pick up his dumbbell...my trainer told me that he knows what it is he just doesn't want to do it. He told me how his dog (UDX4) used to do the same thing and he used the ear pinch method with her. I have read about it, and didn't really want to do it. He told me that next time my dog doesn't pick up his dumbbell, just do a very strong correction with his collar. After a few days of strong corrections, my dog now picks up his dumbbell and loves to do it. You would've never known that that's how I taught him, but he was corrected very very hard with a prong. Now he sprints out to the dumbbell no matter where it is, how its thrown, what its on. My dog isn't the "hardest" of dogs, but he does take correction well. There isn't much I can do to him to get a yelp out or any kind of pain reaction. He actually thinks its play most of the time and will just respond by play fighting.


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## qbchottu

martemchik said:


> Whenever someone that doesn't really understand dog training, just watches it, especially for something as stressful as police work, they might question some of the tactics used. Some of the "old school" methods do work better for truly hard dogs and until you've had one of those dogs I don't think its right to judge how someone trains it.


This is very important to note. Well said. Something people watching a hard dog being worked do not realize looking from the outside in.


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## KristiM

I can see using strong compulsion in a field where your life and your dogs life depends on a certain performance. I think it is wrong to use for sport though, becuase it is just a hobby and its OUR hobby at that. I don't think compulsion should ever replace TEACHING behaviors and that is where a lot of trainers police/civi/military go wrong. It is unfair and abusive to use any kind of a correction on a dog that doesn't fully understand what is expected. BTW what makes a strong correction with a pinch collar any better or worse than a kick? People can get so upset about the means of correction. Most times a kick or a smack is no worse than a pinch collar correction but for some reason it's more acceptable?


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## martemchik

Wanted to add...my dog is in no way as hard as many police dogs. But I just try not to judge people's training methods unless the dog is truly in pain or uncomfortable. If the dogs still work, and are happy to work, it means they aren't stressed by the corrections so I don't see anything bad from it.

At my club we have people that yank and correct all day long, we have people that use motivational methods with fair (subjective) corrections, and we have people that will never correct their dog. Age/experience has a lot to do with this. The actual dog has a lot to do with this (although its very hard to get an old-timer to change their methods based on the dog). You can watch and quickly see what works best/what doesn't work at all.

Like I've stated...I know I've done some questionable methods with my dog. I know that if someone saw some of those training sessions they might question my abilities/methods. This is my first dog, I've evolved, I know that with the next one I'll do things different. But trust me, if you saw my dog work, you'd never think I'd done anything that I know some would consider "wrong." In fact, I look back on things and know that I've done some things that I shouldn't have done.

Sure wish I could watch some police dogs train though, I've seen demonstrations that quite truthfully weren't very spectacular. Remember...many K9 handlers don't have much knowledge about dogs, they are just trained to handle one (there are plenty that do know a lot though). I know there are a few K9 handlers/trainers/department heads on this forum that could give more insight but at least at my city's police department I think only the head trainer really knew a lot about the training program/the dogs. The handlers looked like they just followed her direction.


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## martemchik

KristiM said:


> It is unfair and abusive to use any kind of a correction on a dog that doesn't fully understand what is expected. BTW what makes a strong correction with a pinch collar any better or worse than a kick? People can get so upset about the means of correction. Most times a kick or a smack is no worse than a pinch collar correction but for some reason it's more acceptable?


Exactly my point! Not sure if that's what you got from my post or not. I see the two as equal. And yes...very wrong to correct if a dog doesn't understand what's expected. In my situation, I needed my instructor to finally point out to me that my dog knew what was expected and just wasn't doing it.

But yes...sometimes people don't equate the two. It's okay to correct with a collar, no matter how hard, but when you start kicking/smacking its wrong. Again...I would never punt my dog, I would never truly try to hurt him by breaking bones (which a kick could do) so I guess a collar correction is better in that sense. But a hard correction is a hard correction no matter how its done.


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## Freddy

So adding another dimension to this, what would the appropriate correction be for a dog coming up the leash to chew you up? Handler aggression has to be dealt with, you don't have a lot of time, and if the dog is coming at you with intent you have to meet force with force.

Right?


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## qbchottu

That is an interesting balance, isn't it? A truly hard dog that is also handler aggressive is a delicate situation. At some point, that dog will decide enough is enough and take you out. Those type of dogs though, by culling, should more or less be not as readily available because what handler wants to deal with a dog that is coming up the lead all the time. By the nature of the game, shouldn't they be weeded out to some extent? Not saying they aren't still produced and exist, just that you would naturally want to eliminate those dogs. I love a tough dog, but I don't want him indiscriminately coming after the handler.


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## NancyJ

It is odd. I have trained with a group with representation from several police agencies* for several months now and watched their agression work and have never seen these extreme harsh corrections such as hanging and kicking. I am not saying it doesn't happen but I have not seen any evidence of any such thing. Now muzzle fighting seems to be a real fight, not styilized but that is part of the agression training......the dogs are still under control and seem clear headed. I have zeen zero signs of handler agression on any dogs there.

As a matter of fact the Master Trainer there taught me some ways to motivationally train instead of compulsion for an outing issue and the Trainer there taught me how to more effectively give a pinch correction (mine was too harsh and too prolonged and I was inadvertently building drive) so as not to cause handler agression. 

Their dogs are dual purpose. Mine is just cadaver but is basically of similar stock - a hard dog who per several LE trainers said "you need to have him under clear control because he will take control if you don't" .


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## Freddy

qbchottu said:


> That is an interesting balance, isn't it? A truly hard dog that is also handler aggressive is a delicate situation. At some point, that dog will decide enough is enough and take you out. Those type of dogs though, by culling, should more or less be not as readily available because what handler wants to deal with a dog that is coming up the lead all the time. By the nature of the game, shouldn't they be weeded out to some extent? Not saying they aren't still produced and exist, just that you would naturally want to eliminate those dogs. I love a tough dog, but I don't want him indiscriminately coming after the handler.


Agreed. I've not had serious handler agression but know a couple that have. Not the kind of dog I would want to work with.


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## cliffson1

I know some husbands that beat or abuse their wives....but I don't think marriages are like that. Some of the strongest bonds I have ever seen between dogs and man/woman are law enforcement handlers and dogs. There are exceptions to every rule in life...the people who believe the exceptions are the norm are usually the ones that don't have experience to speak from.


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## KristiM

I don't have a handler aggressive dog, but I have a very very hard and very "orally fixated" dog (loves to bite.) When he gets overly jacked up without something in his mouth, he bites me. I have had some pretty serious injuries due to this. So we have a rule: you bite me, you get kicked. I think its fair, no I don't kick him hard enough to do damage but it is very effective. I train in agility and he doesn't have a pinch collar and leash on, I can deliver a fast effective immediate correction this way. 

Any dog I have personally ever seen with handler aggression it is caused by a dog that is not clear on the task and is recieving unfair corrections. Not saying this is every case but IMO its the majority of them.


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## Jag

I can't really say what would happen if Grim 'got away' from me... but it could happen. He's already shown his willingness to argue with me. He's already shown that the 'purely positive training' I wanted to try with him is NOT for him. The breeder already warned me never to let him get ahead of me. However, when we start training next month, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for him to redirect pent up aggression toward me or someone or something else down the road. I can tell you this... if you show fear or back down, you'd be done. Although I can't imagine beating the crap out of ANY dog, I can see a swift kick during handler aggression bringing the dog out of it. I can see a prong correction amping the dog up, too. No, these dogs are certainly not for 'general consumption' which is one of reasons I waited so many years to get one. However, if you want the kind of heat that these dogs bring, it comes at a price, IMO.


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## codmaster

KristiM said:


> I can see using strong compulsion in a field where your life and your dogs life depends on a certain performance. I think it is wrong to use for sport though, becuase it is just a hobby and its OUR hobby at that. I don't think compulsion should ever replace TEACHING behaviors and that is where a lot of trainers police/civi/military go wrong. It is unfair and abusive to use any kind of a correction on a dog that doesn't fully understand what is expected. BTW what makes a strong correction with a pinch collar any better or worse than a kick? People can get so upset about the means of correction. Most times a kick or a smack is no worse than a pinch collar correction but for some reason it's more acceptable?


Speaking of a field of dog training where the dog "Has" to do it the first time, I have been to a couple of seminars from Joel Silverman, a well known dog trainer from the Hollywood scens (movies and TV shows) where the dog HAS to do it right the first time or there could be a HUGE loss of money while everyone stands around waiting.

He will use a physical correction when needed once in a while but generally doesn't ever seem to have to do so very often.

Emphasizes the "relationship" with your dog and divides dogs by personality into red, yellow, green and blue. From hyper, confident, pushy etc dogs all the way to shy fearful ones and strongly states that you have to identify your dogs personality and then adjust your training approach accordingly to be effective.


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## KristiM

Jag I love reading your posts about Grim He sounds a lot like Havoc, (maybe a little more reasonable than Havoc but still quite similar.) You sound just like me about a year ago all optimistic thinking "oh cool, dogs like this really do exist, hmm this should be neat to own one." Buckle up cause you might be in for one **** of a ride (and great learning experience) I have used corrections with Havoc that I never dreamed I would ever do! I hate it too but realistically if I wasn't willing to rule with an iron fist, I would have to rehome him to someone who was. 

Hard, strong, dominant dogs are cool and all. But my next dog will be another easy one like Odin! Anyways back to the original topic.


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## Jag

Realistically optimistic.  I've been waiting over five years to get a Czech dog like this, and wondering all the while how crazy I'd become, LOL! Havoc is one I've loved reading about... thinking the same thing!


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## PatchonGSD

I hope you guys dont mind me interjecting with my curious questions-
Can anyone provide an example of handler aggression? A video perhaps? 

Its hard for me to imagine a dog turning around and nailing his handler, and then turning right back around and acting like it didn't happen.


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## Lilie

qbchottu said:


> A dog that can take a good correction. A dog that recovers quickly after a heavy correction. A dog that is resilient and works through the pain/corrections. A dog that is tough in mind, perhaps a little independent minded. A dog that will bring the aggression and *has high* *thresholds to pain*. *These dogs can tolerate a lot and usually require a heavy* *hand.* A clicker and some treats won't be adequate to properly train and manage some of these dogs. These dogs will need correction and management devices like the prong and shock.


Can you have a dog that has a high pain tolerance and still be sensitive to *handler *corrections?


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## KristiM

I doubt you would find any videos of true handler aggression. It's fairly common for dogs to redirect aggression to their handler in highly stimulating situations (mostly because they really want to bite something and te handler is there.) Redirecting is different than coming up the leash at you after a correction though. Again the only times I have seen dogs going up the leash is when the handler IMO is being unfair. It can also happen with dogs that are a little insecure and have a hard time taking a correction and feel they have no ther way out. For example my older dog growled at me not too long ago after I split up a fight between him and havoc. I was giving them both crap, Odin kept growling so I grabbed his scruff and told him to knock it off, he kept at it and it then dawned on me that he was actually growling at me! He is a somewhat, soft and pretty handler sensitive. What I was doing was just too much for him to handle mentally. There was no dominance or anything to it (a lot of inexperienced people woul have corrected him further and created a very bad situation.) I just kinda let him growl it out while calmly holding my ground and now I handle those situations more appropriately for Odin. 

I knew a dog name boban graun straub? That was pretty infamous for tearing handlers apart! It's hard to say whether it not he was treated fairly as a young dog. He seemed like a fairly normal dog to me but everyone really walked around on egg shells around him lol. To me that kind of crazy handler aggression indicates a very bad temperament. He was bred quite a bit, hopefully he didn't pass that on to his progeny.


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## KristiM

Lilie said:


> Can you have a dog that has a high pain tolerance and still be sensitive to *handler *corrections?


I think so, you could have a dog that is sensitive to personal corrections and not really care about the painful aspect of it. So for example you could have a dog with a high tolerance to e collar corrections but is super respectful of a strong no and a stern look.


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## Jag

Lilie said:


> Can you have a dog that has a high pain tolerance and still be sensitive to *handler *corrections?


YES! My bitch was like this. I had to hang her once (during that first attack she pulled trying to tear out a woman's throat) on her prong. She had NO reaction to it... like she felt nothing. However, even though she was VERY aggressive and had a high pain tolerance, she was very much a soft to the handler dog. Not a good combo, IMO. Trying to find that 'line' with her was difficult.


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## PatchonGSD

Ok, here's another question- what would be an example of an "unfair" correction?

Giving to strong a correction when the offense was minor?


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## KristiM

PatchonGSD said:


> Ok, here's another question- what would be an example of an "unfair" correction?
> 
> Giving to strong a correction when the offense was minor?


Any correction that is too much for the given dog. Or corrcting a dog when they don't know why. For example you tell a dog to "stay" for the first time ever, he moves and you nail him for it. Ya the dog eventually figures out not to move but the first couple of times he will be thinking WTH was that for??? If it's a dog that doesn't take any crap (a hard or strong dog) he may come up the leash at you. I know that's what I would do if I was a dog


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## Jag

IMO, an unfair correction would be correcting for something that the dog doesn't know. Like not training "down" or knowing that your dog doesn't have a full understanding of "down", then giving a physical correction for not doing it. I don't think it's about 'punishment fitting the crime', because dogs see things in black or white. I'd be interested, though, in seeing what more experienced people think of your question! Ah, yes... to much for the particular dog makes sense, too! 

Grim got ticked at me because I scruffed him (not hard, though) for his biting on my arm. He growled at me, and came at me harder. He was NOT playing. He knew that he wasn't supposed to, it was more about "I'm not putting up with that". I backed off. My mistake. The next time he came back at me I just got tougher with him. He gave me a 'whatever' look and walked away. It never occurred to me to correct a dog that young that sternly. However, that's what this particular pup needs to 'get it' and he can take that correction.


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## Shade

I'm on the fence, Delgado definitely has had some really hard moments. In his first puppy class when he got mobbed by five other dogs I definitely had a "oh crap!" moment but to his credit he took it and didn't back down, I didn't like that the trainer let it get to the point that he growled and showed teeth once but considering what he could have done...He got pinned by a husky at the dog park, he was sniffing another dog and the husky grabbed his scruff and pinned him in a flash. They were separated in moments and he turned around and stared the other dog down but didn't even try to retaliate. Walked away when I told him to and didn't look back

Not much phases him, he's rock steady and he's the type of dog that you could probably hit a 2x4 (not that I ever would!!) and shake it off. He's been zapped by my parents electric fence twice and yelped once but came back when I called him right away without his tail tucked between his legs, the voltage on the fence is strong enough to contain cattle by the way! I've felt it and it HURTS. His pain tolerance is quite high and I suppose that would be good in Schutzhund or K9 work which is in his genetics from both sides

In training him I had to take a different approach then my other dogs, my first dog Alex and Jazzy were both soft dogs, a stern word had them corrected. Delgado responds to praise and treats but he can take it or leave it, I had to be very firm in teaching him "I'll ask ONCE not twice." The clicker has been a absolute help in training him, it charges that treat to the point he'll do anything to get it. 

As for harshness I used a halti to walk him, it was only last weekend I picked up a prong and tried it. He responds better to the prong and I do like the confidence it gives me but I'm glad I waited this long because I've already shaped the behaviour I want walking without being harsh, the prong just backs me up if he chooses not to listen the first time

He responds much better to praise then harshness, my first trainer was all "rainbows and sunshine" and she got a good response from him when she used him as a demo dog. My second trainer was more physical and hard as she tried he flipped his middle claw at her when she tried to work with him. She didn't offer treats or treat him with respect and he didn't listen to her, she gave him all this BS about "you're going to have so many problems with him" blah blah blah but I would take him back and he'd do the behaviour within seconds with me. Why? He loved me and I had earned his respect, he wanted to please me by doing what I asked 

Are there dogs out there that need a firm hand, yes. Are there dogs out there that need a gentle hand, yes. Match a dog with the proper trainer and see what works for both, if the trainer doesn't believe in their method and the dog doesn't respond then there's a disconnect. I don't believe most dogs need to be booted or treated with kid gloves, most need a medium range where there is praise for good behaviour and consequences for bad. Consequences can be simple things like taking away toys or turning your back to them, praise can be a pat on the head or a game of tug


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## Lilie

PatchonGSD said:


> Ok, here's another question- what would be an example of an "unfair" correction?
> 
> Giving to strong a correction when the offense was minor?



I thought an unfair correction was a poorly timed correction.


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## KristiM

Lilie said:


> I thought an unfair correction was a poorly timed correction.


That is unfair too. The person who comes home and freaks out at their dog for eating the couch Again, the dog has no idea what the correction is for.


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## Jag

PatchonGSD said:


> I hope you guys dont mind me interjecting with my curious questions-
> Can anyone provide an example of handler aggression? A video perhaps?
> 
> Its hard for me to imagine a dog turning around and nailing his handler, and then turning right back around and acting like it didn't happen.


I can tell you this... I'm going to be VERY hesitant about putting a prong on Grim because until I am 100% sure that he has total respect for me I can see a correction going sideways. This is not a dog I'd even consider training all on my own. (Even if I just wanted a 'companion'...which I don't) He's not gotten an attitude with me again, but still. I want to REALLY know him, and my training with him will be more food motivated and praise motivated and corrections will start at the bottom rung until I know more. I've heard of dogs coming up the leash because they 'didn't like the correction'. I don't know if that's the whole story, but enough to make me want to hold off on any thoughts of using a prong unless I absolutely have to with him. When I know that he will respect me even through a correction he may not like, then that will be a different story.
And yes, even though *I* didn't forget about it when Grim came back at me, he certainly did! He went on about his happy camper way and acted like it never happened.


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## KristiM

Part of the fun and challenge for me training in dog sports is figuring out how to get the performance you want without resorting to corrections. That is part of the reason why I will try to problem solve (I am smarter than my dog, I am smarter than my dog) and try lots of different things before going to correcting. That's my challenge in training for sports. I don't feel the same way about real life stuff though. I use corrections far more frequently so that my dogs can function in day to day life, this is much the same as with real working dogs, they have to be able to do it or bad things can happen. The worst that is likely to happen in a sport is point loss/not placing as high etc.


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## qbchottu

PatchonGSD said:


> I hope you guys dont mind me interjecting with my curious questions-
> Can anyone provide an example of handler aggression? A video perhaps?
> 
> Its hard for me to imagine a dog turning around and nailing his handler, and then turning right back around and acting like it didn't happen.


Not handler aggression, but a hard female in full drive:
Betsie brn 19547 Appel en in bijten Stok leren - YouTube

See how the corrections don't even phase her? Even with the hard correction, she remains in full drive and isn't rattled. Most dogs would crumble under that kind of pressure.
Also Patchon, you could argue the handler is unfairly correcting her as well.


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## qbchottu

That same bitch turned on the handler and exhibited handler aggression not soon after. I don't have the link for that.


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## NancyJ

Jag said:


> I can tell you this... I'm going to be VERY hesitant about putting a prong on Grim because until I am 100% sure that he has total respect for me I can see a correction going sideways. This is not a dog I'd even consider training all on my own. (Even if I just wanted a 'companion'...which I don't) He's not gotten an attitude with me again, but still. I want to REALLY know him, and my training with him will be more food motivated and praise motivated and corrections will start at the bottom rung until I know more. I've heard of dogs coming up the leash because they 'didn't like the correction'. I don't know if that's the whole story, but enough to make me want to hold off on any thoughts of using a prong unless I absolutely have to with him. When I know that he will respect me even through a correction he may not like, then that will be a different story.
> And yes, even though *I* didn't forget about it when Grim came back at me, he certainly did! He went on about his happy camper way and acted like it never happened.


You have come to this conclusion with a three month old puppy?


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## Jag

Not knowing how he'll be at 6 months or a year? Yes. I want to use all the other tools there are before going to a prong. He walks well now, so as long as that keeps up, no reason for a prong for that. For correction? We'll see. Maybe, maybe not. My point is more "from what I've seen so far" I won't rush to it because it's possible. I never considered this possible in any of my previous shepherds.


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## Jag

KristiM said:


> Part of the fun and challenge for me training in dog sports is figuring out how to get the performance you want without resorting to corrections. That is part of the reason why I will try to problem solve (I am smarter than my dog, I am smarter than my dog) and try lots of different things before going to correcting. That's my challenge in training for sports. I don't feel the same way about real life stuff though. I use corrections far more frequently so that my dogs can function in day to day life, this is much the same as with real working dogs, they have to be able to do it or bad things can happen. The worst that is likely to happen in a sport is point loss/not placing as high etc.


This is what I'm really excited about. Right now, he works well for food and praise. Better than any dog I've had so far. I know we'll come to correction at some point, but I don't want to rush to it. I am chomping at the bit to work with this trainer!  I haven't even started 'heel' or anything like that because I want it done right. I want him looking at me the whole time but unsure how to get that. The possibilities I see with Grim are great, I just want to do it right... not just compulsion train.


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## qbchottu

I will be curious to see how your viewpoints change two years into the sport.


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## Jag

qbchottu said:


> Not handler aggression, but a hard female in full drive:
> Betsie brn 19547 Appel en in bijten Stok leren - YouTube
> 
> See how the corrections don't even phase her? Even with the hard correction, she remains in full drive and isn't rattled. Most dogs would crumble under that kind of pressure.
> Also Patchon, you could argue the handler is unfairly correcting her as well.


That vid was awesome in terms of seeing a bitch *that* hard and that the corrections don't phase her. However, I have some issues, still, with watching compulsion training. At first I thought she had a prong on. The corrections just seemed to amp her up even more.


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## qbchottu

Yes, don't get me started on the training, but the video is to show a hard dog.


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## Jag

qbchottu said:


> I will be curious to see how your viewpoints change two years into the sport.


I'm not sure that it won't change. I don't have experience to go on with that. So I could have a VERY different opinion. This is also my first experience with this type of dog. My previous shepherds would have folded at major corrections. We'll see how this guy ends up. I'm not expecting the same, because so far he's been VERY different. I'm not closed off to other ways of training, which is why I'm excited to work with this trainer. Sounds like we're on the same page.


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## KristiM

qbchottu said:


> Not handler aggression, but a hard female in full drive:
> Betsie brn 19547 Appel en in bijten Stok leren - YouTube
> 
> See how the corrections don't even phase her? Even with the hard correction, she remains in full drive and isn't rattled. Most dogs would crumble under that kind of pressure.
> Also Patchon, you could argue the handler is unfairly correcting her as well.


I hate watching videos like that! You can see at about 35 seconds that the dog has just about had enough. Then she focuses back on the helper. Tough dog!


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## Jack's Dad

That is a pathetic display and I fee bad for the life that dog has ahead of it.

What is that supposed to prove?


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## NancyJ

In light of this discussion I wonder what folks think of this article? 

http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Jerry-BradshawV4I2.pdf


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## KristiM

jocoyn said:


> In light of this discussion I wonder what folks think of this article?
> 
> http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Jerry-BradshawV4I2.pdf


REALLY good article!!! Definitely worth a read.


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## Jag

The article seems to make a lot of sense. However, I wonder what you'd do if those failed? I guess it would be moot, because those dogs would be booted from the program. I can assume they've got a lot of dominant dogs in that program. I'd love to add to this discussion, but don't have much to offer because I haven't had that experience yet... except briefly with my first dog.


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## KristiM

I really like the idea of not correcting dominant behaviors. This is kind if how I deal with havoc. I had the luxury of beginning this when he was a baby, it would be a lot different with an adult dog... For example when he was a puppy he would resource guard, snarl bite etc. I never reacted to it, I just kept the attidtude of "ah seriously? Your not that tough buddy." I have the attitude that I am so tough that when he tries to be nasty it doesn't bother me. For example one of the more concerning issues when he was younger was if something he was playing with went out of reach (like under the coffee table) and if I went to reach for it to get it for him he would try to eat me. I would just keep my hand where it was look at him "uh seriously buddy? Knock it off." He would stop trying to eat me, I would wait a minute and then get his thing. Pretty soon he started to figure out that aggression towards me meant nothing, cause I'm just that tough With havoc this has worked really well, why fight a dog that loves to fight? 

There are also things that I choose not to fight over, I pick my battles. That particular issue had to be dealt with, I could just see him dropping a ball under someone's chair when camping, they go to get the ball for him and get nailed! Thankfully this isn't an issue anymore. This was dealt with as a baby though and although he did draw blood he wouldn't have been able to put me in the hospital like an adult could. I feel like the way I dealt with this though as a baby has convinced him that I am pretty freakin tough. He has never even thought about coming up the line after a correction. I have never corrected dominat behavior towrds me and I don't think I will ever have to.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GREAT article, Nancy! I'm still reading it, but wanted to post this part:



> First, you must disorient his expectations, and set the dog up to have to show deference or submission to get anything he desires, including affection, rewards, food, including toys, bite sessions. *This is commonly called the “No Free Lunch” program, and uses a principle called the “Premack Principle”.* It states that a dog will perform a less desirable activity (obedience or social subordination) in order to get to perform a more desirable activity. Use obedience as a pre-cursor to his favorite activities or those where he gives you problems.


Another name is of course, NILIF. The thing is, you manage the dog's environment so they're constantly practicing deference behaviors in order to get what they want. The more they practice deference, the more deferent they become, and consequently the less necessary physical force becomes. Since the bigger and stronger your dog gets, the less likely you're going to win in a battle of physical force, finding ways to elicit willing cooperation and avoid those battles, the better, IMO. 



> We are changing how the dog fundamentally relates to us.


 :thumbup:

And this: 



> Even if physical force suppresses the dominance, it will not change the dog’s fundamental relationship with you. He will always be looking for the time when he might be able to go to battle and win the conflict. Set up your relationship so he knows all good things come through demonstrating obedience and behavioral deference to you. This will change how he views you, not as a rival, but the source of all the things in life he wants and desires. *Dominance behaviors blossom because they get the dog something. Teach him those behaviors are not as successful as being deferential*, and working his wants and needs, through your system.


:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Jag

KristiM said:


> I really like the idea of not correcting dominant behaviors. This is kind if how I deal with havoc. I had the luxury of beginning this when he was a baby, it would be a lot different with an adult dog... For example when he was a puppy he would resource guard, snarl bite etc. I never reacted to it, I just kept the attidtude of "ah seriously? Your not that tough buddy." I have the attitude that I am so tough that when he tries to be nasty it doesn't bother me. For example one of the more concerning issues when he was younger was if something he was playing with went out of reach (like under the coffee table) and if I went to reach for it to get it for him he would try to eat me. I would just keep my hand where it was look at him "uh seriously buddy? Knock it off." He would stop trying to eat me, I would wait a minute and then get his thing. Pretty soon he started to figure out that aggression towards me meant nothing, cause I'm just that tough With havoc this has worked really well, why fight a dog that loves to fight?
> 
> There are also things that I choose not to fight over, I pick my battles. That particular issue had to be dealt with, I could just see him dropping a ball under someone's chair when camping, they go to get the ball for him and get nailed! Thankfully this isn't an issue anymore. This was dealt with as a baby though and although he did draw blood he wouldn't have been able to put me in the hospital like an adult could. I feel like the way I dealt with this though as a baby has convinced him that I am pretty freakin tough. He has never even thought about coming up the line after a correction. I have never corrected dominat behavior towrds me and I don't think I will ever have to.


Thank you for posting this! I'm 'feeling my way through this' and those that have dealt with this before giving insight helps so I'm not stuck wondering how I should react. There is no way I'd ever win a physical fight with an adult. I'm too weak now to do that. So it has to be mental. 
Wanted to add I haven't had resource guarding issues with him, but I've been taking stuff from him and messing with his food and bowl from day one. I never wanted him to think anything was 'his' except his kennel.


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## PatchonGSD

qbchottu said:


> Not handler aggression, but a hard female in full drive:
> Betsie brn 19547 Appel en in bijten Stok leren - YouTube
> 
> See how the corrections don't even phase her? Even with the hard correction, she remains in full drive and isn't rattled. Most dogs would crumble under that kind of pressure.
> Also Patchon, you could argue the handler is unfairly correcting her as well.


Holy smokes  Thanks for the vid. It clarified a lot for me, but what was the handler doing by putting his hand on her head??


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## KristiM

Jag said:


> Thank you for posting this! I'm 'feeling my way through this' and those that have dealt with this before giving insight helps so I'm not stuck wondering how I should react. There is no way I'd ever win a physical fight with an adult. I'm too weak now to do that. So it has to be mental.
> Wanted to add I haven't had resource guarding issues with him, but I've been taking stuff from him and messing with his food and bowl from day one. I never wanted him to think anything was 'his' except his kennel.


I would definitely suggest making it a positive experience when you are around him eating etc. I think sometimes "messing" with their food when they are eating can get old and they may eventually tell you I buzz off. I still make it a habit of feed in two tiers, I give him his main meal and then I go into his eating area when he is half done and give him more food. I always trade up if I need to take stuff away from him. Like if he is eating an elk neck and I don't want him to eat the whole bone I will tell him to leave the bone, he leaves it I pick it up and then he gets a lamb heart or something really yummy. Havoc also gets super angry if you take stuff out of his kennel or if I stick my head in it etc. I generally just ignore him and don't do stuff to his kennel unnesseccarily. 

He is the most confident dog that I think I have ever dealt with, he is also super independent. The posts you have made about grim being a "I wanna do this my way" puppy remind me the most of havoc. I think in dealing with these dogs you have to have the general mind set of complete confidence in your self at all times. Confident leaders don't pick stupid fights and don't "nag" but stay firm and fair on the important stuff.


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## KristiM

PatchonGSD said:


> Holy smokes  Thanks for the vid. It clarified a lot for me, but what was the handler doing by putting his hand on her head??


I think the hand on the head was just to calm her on the bite? I would have to watch it again to be sure, which I would rather not do


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## Cassidy's Mom

KristiM said:


> I would definitely suggest making it a positive experience when you are around him eating etc. I think sometimes "messing" with their food when they are eating can get old and they may eventually tell you I buzz off.


I agree - messing too much with them can backfire, by destroying trust. Dogs guard because they have something of value that they fear they will lose. If your dog trusts you, you should never have guarding issues.

Since I never know in advance if I have a dog who is inclined to resource guard I'm proactive by doing a certain amount of hand feeding my puppies, putting stuff IN the bowl rather than taking anything out. I practice impulse control by making them sit and wait while I put the food bowl on the floor and then releasing them to eat - but once I do release, it's theirs, I don't take it away.

And I play TONS of trading games with toys and bones, so they learn that giving up something voluntarily is a good thing, not something to be anxious about.


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## Jack's Dad

I still don't get what the paycho man was trying to accomplish.

Was it to make the poor dog as crazy as him?

I don't see any control on either the dog or the handlers part.

I wouldn't want either one in a foxhole with me.


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## KristiM

I think he was trying to get a bark and hold? Or maybe he was just trying to aggravate her? Funny thing is, as a person if we can't figure out what he was trying to do how is the dog supposed to figure it out?


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## elisabeth_00117

Okay, regarding the video posted.. and please someone correct me if I am way off base here... and noting that this is not a GSD and so I am basing my comments on a GSD temperament, etc.. I REALLY do want to learn and if I am off here, please help me understand.

That dog TO ME, showed no intention of backing off even with those corrections. She was totally uncontrolled of herself and the drive got to be too much for her as she could not take correction or cues from her handler AT ALL.

To me, I would say that dog was a unstable because she could not clearly decipher when too and when not too collect herself (even with the help of her handler - ie. corrections).

Now, the dog could be young, still learning control, etc.. fine, MAYBE I can see that, but the intensity in which that dog was continuing to try (ie. wrapping her legs around her handler, being hung and still going after the decoy, etc.) to go for the decoy, that to me was a dog unable to cap the drive to the tenth degree. 

I have been told by a few people (one of the head members of the GSSCC) as well as 2 TD's at local schH clubs that I have a hard dog. My female is also a dog who has control issues and is not one to back off with a HARD correction - physical or otherwise... BUT if *I* gave the correction to the degree that the handler was in that video, you bed she would of backed off. She would of backed off with less because she knows that when her handler is doing so for a reason - even if she doesn't know what that reason is. 

I don't know, to me, who LOVES a hard dog, who LOVES a tough bitch, who actually seeks out dogs who are like this so I can watch them work and learn more about them, this dog did not make me think she was a great example of a 'hard bitch who took correction well/at all.

One dog who I keep thinking of who is a good example of a hard dog is a TD's dog who I had the pleasure of watching work a few times ( Echo von Heksterhorst ), he would be a dog who I would consider a hard dog.

JMO though and a total newbie at this, again, just my opinion thus far.


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## KristiM

To me the dog had obviously not been properly introduced to control during bite work. Standing 2 feet away from the helper and yanking until the dog complies is not how you do it. I would start with the dog a good distance from the helper give a simple command like sit, the dog can flip out all it wants until it sits. Then yes and bite, raise criteria from there. That's not how some people train though. There was a female mal in my club very similar to that dutchie and I saw many similar scenes first hand when they began teaching control. It's just a different mind set and way of raising/training dogs. IMO it's unacceptable, dog training has evolved, we know how to employ different methods that are just as effective so why not use them?


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## qbchottu

PatchonGSD said:


> what was the handler doing by putting his hand on her head??


Several reasons - he is a little too much for such a young dog imo, but I can see hints of what he *should* be doing, but is doing in a cumbersome and unwieldy manner. But that is my snap judgment without knowing the dog or handler. Could be I am wrong about him and his training...but I would not do this type of training with such a young dog. 

You want the dog to get used to having hands and objects near the face/body. Later on, the dog will have to learn to take stick hits. It's good to start them young with having hands in the face/body so that they will learn early to hold that grip in spite of having distractions/objects flying around his body/face and to teach the dog to stay focused on the sleeve, not coming off the sleeve to go after a hand or stick that will eventually drive them later on in training. You want them to learn early on that they should just ignore flying objects around them and that biting the sleeve is the name of the game. 

Another reason is to put defense on the dog. You want to put some pressure on it. Teach it slowly to stand up to the helper. To not back down when driven. To fight back when pressured. The hands putting pressure on the mouth, head, face etc. Slowly increasing the pressure on the dog so you can eventually have a dog that doesn't back down from a helper in sport or a bad guy during work. Increasing the thresholds of the dog each time, putting increasing pressure, just enough so you can bring the dog to the breaking point, letting him win and then using that victory to build the dog's confidence. A good helper can navigate that fine balance of putting enough pressure on the dog to bring it to the hilt, but then backing down just in time so the dog can think it wins and then brings it that much more the next session. 

You can see him petting and caressing the dog as well to some degree. I like doing this for my dogs during bite work. I like to get up close to the dog, I like to be one with the dog. I want us to be a team. When my dogs are young, they need a lot more reassurance. They need to know you are behind them to help them fight off the bad guy. They need your presence and support to have the confidence to not back down under pressure. One way to encourage and motivate the dog is to give him physical reassurance. I like to give the dog deep, soothing pets along the topline and flanks. I like to pet the dog, give the dog words of encouragement, let him know I'm there and approve of his work. This is a positive and later on, as the helper starts to put his hands everywhere, the dog will be used to keeping on the sleeve rather than becoming dirty and biting everywhere like a lunatic. 

From what I know (which is not much so take it with a grain of salt), I would not put this much defense on such a young dog with what seems to be a poor foundation. You can title a dog easily. It's done on a regularly basis as breeders ship their dogs to Germany and buy titles that are slapped on a dog within 3 months. To do it right, schh takes time. Cut corners, push a dog before it is ready, drag it through a routine...well, that is fine if you want to title as a formality so you can breed the dog, but it will come back and haunt you if you plan on doing anything further with the dog. Just imo...


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## qbchottu

When we do the puppies for bite work, this is how we would start. First it is all a game. The helper initially starts out petting the dog's head and playing a game. After prey has been properly groomed, helper starts placing pressure on the dog's face and muzzle. Then you can start making motions like a stick hit is coming. Then give the dog a couple whacks with the stick but on the lead so stick doesn't actually touch skin, but dog can start getting used to the motion of stick hits coming at it. Then finally you gently tap the dog with the stick. Finally you can start giving him proper hits. Then finally you teach him to drive by giving him proper stick hits while he is on the sleeve. So it should be done slow and steady. Time and patience is crucial. All dogs progress at different paces, but it's no good to push a dog that isn't ready. Good recipe to ruin it for later.


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## llombardo

qbchottu said:


> When we do the puppies for bite work, this is how we would start. First it is all a game. The helper initially starts out petting the dog's head and playing a game. After prey has been properly groomed, helper starts placing pressure on the dog's face and muzzle. Then you can start making motions like a stick hit is coming. Then give the dog a couple whacks with the stick but on the lead so stick doesn't actually touch skin, but dog can start getting used to the motion of stick hits coming at it. Then finally you gently tap the dog with the stick. Finally you can start giving him proper hits. Then finally you teach him to drive by giving him proper stick hits while he is on the sleeve. So it should be done slow and steady. Time and patience is crucial. All dogs progress at different paces, but it's no good to push a dog that isn't ready. Good recipe to ruin it for later.


What about testing the drive? If the dog doesn't have this or is not showing much of a drive, do you continue with the dog? When my dog was evaluated, that is the first thing they tested for. They wanted to see if she would lunge, focus, bark, you know all of the good stuff


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## qbchottu

Same for testing drive. Just make it a game at first and work the dog out of prey. Make it fun. Something they look forward to. After a few sessions, just coming out to the field and seeing the bite equipment will make even young pups go nuts. 

Depends on the dog. At this point, just personally, I would not bother with a dog that does not display the proper drives right off the bat. I am interested in sport and show. I want dogs that can excel in that world. I don't have the interest or time to coax an iffy dog. 

There are some that will continue to work a dog regardless of if it shows ANY drive. I know of a SL bitch that I have seen train for the last year. Over two now and she won't bite a dang bite pad. Just completely hopeless. But her owners are in it for fun and just want to bring her out. Every once in awhile, she will mouth a pillow or rag, but she is not cut out for it and will never be titled. It's not in her. But that's ok. She is a pet and her owners are fine with that. 

Another personal example is my own male. He was the laziest dog you ever saw. First two months I had him out, he would sit down when the helper came out with a rag. Complete embarrassment. I almost gave up. But something turned on when he matured a little. Drive turned on, started barking, progressed quickly and was on a trial sleeve within a few months. The problem with him is that his drives are not balanced. He is too much in defense and does not have much prey (only what was taught to him through gradual work). So while we did prey work, he had little interest. Once he matured enough for us to put defense on him, a light turned on and he came alive. He likes to work out of defense. He will mouth a sleeve, but if I tell the helper to give him a couple cracks with the whip, his next bite will be bone-crushing. It's because he gets turned on by defense and has little interest for prey. So in his case, he could be titled and would be a fun side project, but is not balanced enough for top level sport. 

For a that female I mentioned though, I don't think any level of work will get her titled. Just not in her so it has to be a case by case imo depending on the dog, handler and your goals.


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## jae

This certainly is an insightful discussion. I imagine a dog like Grim and Havoc absolutely needs an outlet for their energy, but I question the point that outlet become a dead end in terms of keeping the dog interested with the handler, that girl in the video certainly did not seem interested in doing anything for the handler, more independent I suppose. Then, how would you test what corrections your dog can handle, through trial and error? I am curious to know if that girl was even tested without those hard corrections.

Though, that's one of my favorite things about my pup, he is so responsive to vocal corrections, and even calling his name will get him to back off of most things. He's displayed minimal resource guarding - fixed that in 2 meals, no dog aggression, no human aggression, but then again he is still quite young, so I hope I am not speaking too soon. I have wrongly over-corrected him before, and he just seems to either ignore the correction, respond just fine to it, or just ignore me when I do that, I can't tell what he will do, but I am unsure as to whether he could handle those rough corrections, or if they are merely unnecessary. In my earlier misled days, I used to give him a poke, scruffed him, and give him a hard choke, but that's all a thing of the past, and I wouldn't use it anymore,. All that I really need now are simple leash taps to get him going on track, though I find myself giving them quite often, but it avoids the need for any real correction, for the most part.


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## Kaity

qbchottu said:


> A dog that can take a good correction. A dog that recovers quickly after a heavy correction. A dog that is resilient and works through the pain/corrections. A dog that is tough in mind, perhaps a little independent minded. A dog that will bring the aggression and has high thresholds to pain. These dogs can tolerate a lot and usually require a heavy hand. A clicker and some treats won't be adequate to properly train and manage some of these dogs. These dogs will need correction and management devices like the prong and shock.


I have a hard pup, which will grow up to be a very hard dog like her dam.. Do I kick my dog? No. Do I tap her and push her with my foot sometimes? Yes. Do I poke her in the ribs for some things? Yes. 

I do these things to regain her focus when she is SO focused in on something. I'd rather physically touch her than use an e-collar, because when the pup is stimulated and in her own world for a few seconds, she won't respond to pain as easily. So we have trainers who believe this, and will up the e-collar correction and trainers who will NEVER touch the dial, just keep it on low or two. 

I think theres a difference between dumb dogs, (sorry guys, I've seen some pretty dumb dogs. they do exist.) vs. non compliant dogs (dogs that have been allowed to do whatever they please with absolutely no structure for x amount of time) vs. hard dogs. I can't remember which trainer it was, but he had an article on 'how to string a dog up until it defecates.'. And the point of this is what? Because you want your dog to go when YOU want him to go potty? Not when he has to? Dogs are living, being creatures too. Beautiful, magnificent and extremely fascinating at that. When you string a dog up on a prong and not give him the CHANCE to make a mistake what are you accomplishing here? Use a finer prong on your dog. I agree with some things, the dominance dog collar for example: very hard to place on an aggressive dog. I see it as a safety tool, if trainer takes dog outside by herself, dog reacts, trainer can string dog up. I think the point of stringing a dog up by a slip leash or collar is 'I'm taking something away from you until you comply.' It works. It's not nice, but as humans we will never be able to communicate what we want our dogs to do because we are not dogs, and will never fully understand their brains and what they are thinking.

I don't care what type of dog you're training, a hard dog, a really soft dog or a good balance in between for companionship: Be as gentle as possible, and as firm as _needed_. Not as you wish to get quick results. Does a dog really learn from these types of corrections? I'd be curious to see anybodys input, why or why not. 

Then we have ecollar training, especially for duck dogs and recalls. Sort of like a backup plan. The downfall to punishment is it always will need to be re administered throughout the dogs life unless you teach that behaviour the way you want it, without training tools. This being said, I will never take my dog out for a nice walk without a prong. Can I control my 75 pound female if she gets in a scuffle? Yeah, I can. Can I control my 40 pound puppy, and prepare for the amount of force she'll be able to use? Absolutely not! She's a built, strong and strong willed bitch that already pulls myself and my boyfriend by surprise sometimes if not on her puppy pinch. Theres also a difference between teaching competition commands and everyday commands. If I tell my dog to heel, on a walk it's going to be different than if we were in a trial and I told her heel..

I really believe the foundation to any dog and handler relationship is true bonding. If you have that, and your dogs respect, you both are limitless. If you don't have that bond with your dog, to where they focus enough on you so you can get what you want out of them.. you don't have any business with that dog or training/working it.


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## KristiM

jae said:


> This certainly is an insightful discussion. I imagine a dog like Grim and Havoc absolutely needs an outlet for their energy, but I question the point that outlet become a dead end in terms of keeping the dog interested with the handler, that girl in the video certainly did not seem interested in doing anything for the handler, more independent I suppose. Then, how would you test what corrections your dog can handle, through trial and error? I am curious to know if that girl was even tested without those hard corrections.


It seems to me that people who train the way that was shown in the video do not do it to have a nice bond with their dog. Their dogs are tools to get titles with and to compete with. They like dogs like that because they are tough and because that is how they like to train. You certainly would have to change your methods with a slightly softer dog, which a lot of handlers aren't willing to do. I think part of the reason dogs like her can handle those kind of corrections are BECAUSE of a lack of a true bond with the handler. I would be willing to bet that the dog in the video likely lives in a kennel, is trained, conditioned, and back in the kennel. Why would she care what the handler wants? She will eventually learn based on avoidance of pain alone, nothing really to do with working with the handler.


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## cliffson1

The great thing about this breed is they are a hardy , resilient and sturdy working dog....least that what's they are supposed to be; to herd all day in all types of inclimate weather and to do L E/military work and to be great family dog. Wide venue of diversity in this breed. These dogs work great from building a bond, these dogs are also very adaptable and have the ability to acclimate themselves to a new environment, or different training methods, etc. There is nothing exclusive about this breed less it lessens the dogs unique ability to serve man which is its highest purpose. Treat them fair and consistent and you can be successful and build strong bond with many different approaches.jmo


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## abakerrr

While I think there is serious value in the hardness of that bitch, I feel that the approach to manage and control her under drive was very poorly executed. I typically withhold judgement from an outside perspective, particularly when I'm unable to see the whole picture, but this video is an embarrassment to the whole concept of "training" in protection sports. Wheres the communication? Wheres the clarity? Wheres the relationship? I'm certainly not adverse to a hard correction, particulary on a hard dog, but it has to be fair.


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## LouCastle

jae said:


> One thing that struck me as sad, is that he said their police force will physically kick a dog if they get distracted during a drill or during an actual chase/track in the field. He said he has seen a dog growl and snap at his handler more than once, but they always seem to be perfectly content and more than happy to do what the handler asks even after that occurs. I voiced my displeasure at them kicking a dog for corrections, and his reply was "well, these are hard, real, working dogs, so you need to use force with them to keep them in line"
> 
> That doesn't seem right. Maybe someone here with more experience could shed some light on this subject?


The use of force like this is not uncommon in training police dogs. The model has been in place for ages and it's probably not going to change anytime soon. It often results in handlers being bitten by their own dogs when they overcorrect. It usually results in conflict which affects ALL of the rest of the dog's work and can seriously harm the searching, the main reason that we have these dogs. 

It's best if this conflict can be avoided and there are tool and methods that eliminate it but few trainers use them. In some circles it's considered "macho" and a sign of a tough dog, if he's attacked the handler a few times.


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## LouCastle

PatchonGSD said:


> Its hard for me to imagine a dog turning around and nailing his handler, and then turning right back around and acting like it didn't happen.


Usually behavior where the dog bites like this, is a case of misplaced aggression rather than "handler aggression." In the latter case, usually the aggression is prolonged.


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## LouCastle

KristiM said:


> Again the only times I have seen dogs going up the leash is when the handler IMO is being unfair. It can also happen with dogs that are a little insecure and have a hard time taking a correction and feel they have no ther way out.


Good insight here. It can also be a result of long term conflict with a single culminating event. Rarely is it the result of just one correction. 



KristiM said:


> For example my older dog growled at me not too long ago after I split up a fight between him and havoc. ... Odin kept growling so I grabbed his scruff and told him to knock it off, he kept at it and it then dawned on me that he was actually growling at me! He is a somewhat, soft and pretty handler sensitive. What I was doing was just too much for him to handle mentally. There was no dominance or anything to it ... I just kinda let him growl it out while calmly holding my ground


Sometimes ignoring it is a good idea.


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## LouCastle

jocoyn said:


> In light of this discussion I wonder what folks think of this article?
> 
> http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Jerry-BradshawV4I2.pdf


It's pretty good until he starts talking about NLIF. Then he loses me. I used to think that was a pretty good way to handle dominance issues of any kind. But I've found something that's far better, learning about and understanding rank drive. Using greeting behavior, food sharing, drive training and leadership exercises. They're extremely subtle but I've found them to work simply, easily, without conflict and effectively. Rank Civ 

People underestimate the importance of rank drive. It probably has more influence on all the rest of the work, than any other single drive. In a working relationship the dog will work best if he thinks he's #2 in the relationship.


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## KayleeGSD

LouCastle said:


> It's pretty good until he starts talking about NLIF. Then he loses me. I used to think that was a pretty good way to handle dominance issues of any kind. But I've found something that's far better, learning about and understanding rank drive. Using greeting behavior, food sharing, drive training and leadership exercises. They're extremely subtle but I've found them to work simply, easily, without conflict and effectively. Rank Civ
> 
> People underestimate the importance of rank drive. It probably has more influence on all the rest of the work, than any other single drive. In a working relationship the dog will work best if he thinks he's #2 in the relationship.


I thank you again Lou for all of the info on rank drive! I am already noticing a change with Kaylee because of it. I am going to work on our foundation and smooth out any cracks in it before moving on to anything else. Rank drive is certainly important to know and very effective when applied


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## Jrnabors

I have one of those hard dogs that would probably be better suited to being a police dog than being our family pet. I totally disagree with kicking dogs, but I do understand where the guy talking to the original poster is coming from. You can't exactly let these dogs get the upper hand on anything. If your training philosophy is like Dr. Spock for dogs, well I don't want to get into any arguments, but the passive approach just doesn't work on my dog. If it does for your hard dog, then great for you for being a dog whisperer that can get a high strung, hyper, high drive dog to do what you want without laying down the law. Again, I would never kick a dog, but I have no problems with people using choke collars, prong collars, E-collars, or anything else that works. I use a prong and it seems to work on some things but the problem I'm having is she needs remote correction on things (running from me in the house when I'm ready to put her up, scratching on the door outside) and I don't see how I can get her to stop doing those things without an e-collar that right now are the number one nuisance behaviors she has. Anything else I can correct with a prong.


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