# Beginning Phases of RAW switch



## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Hey everybody.

I know that this is a _very _common thread topic but I wanted some personal advice on switching my dog to RAW. Before writing this I went to the Leesburg site, and any other link I could find back about 10-15 pages on this forum. I've been reading as much as I can but I wanted to try to get advice about _my _dog.

So, here are the details: She is a higher energy, 75 lbs spayed, 10.5 month old female GSD (was weight at her vet this week) so I would assume that she would eat 1.5 lbs of food a day based on 2-3% of her body weight. The vet mentioned that she was still thin although he didn't seem too concerned with her weight. However, he _was _concerned with the fact that she has, as he described, a very circular eating pattern... she will go a week or two and basically eat nothing, refusing breakfast and then eating dinner and then the next week or two she's eating breakfast and dinner and whinning to get more food (which she usually gets since she has basically starved herself the week before.) He was worried that this might be a symptom of IBD, although she doesn't have constant vomitting or diarhea or basically any other typical symptom from my online research. 

Jerzey gets A LOT of food. 3 cups, twice a day







(or more, during her "hungry" weeks) of Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy. (I understand that this is not the best food, but this being my first dog, I simply did not know. I basically went in looking for a food that had a protein as the first ingredient.) I also put garlic in it to encourage her to eat it... now she won't sniff it twice without it! I would think that 6 cups a day would be too much but she is still fairly thin (or at least not fat) so I'm nervous to cut down the food, esp. since she eats so little as it is and is becoming more active as winter leaves and the warm weather is creepin back. (Thank God!)

Jerzey has had some RAW treats before. She has sampled: canned mackrel, beef liver, chicken heart/gizzard mix, chicken (cut from what I'm cooking , not with bone yet), ground turkey, eggs with shell, yogurt, banana, apple (basically the core when my bf eats them), peas and... I think that's all. We were giving her fish oil supplements because her skin was dry but recently ran out. (I need to get more, though, because I can see her dry skin flaking off again...) She has never had any problem with any of these raw samples except ones she has loose stools after eating liver directly before eating kibble and I think the mix messed with her stomach because she had sampled liver before before with no ill effects (although I have read the liver can be too rich but she's only ever had a small piece at a time.)

I've read that I should begin with just one type of meat, I would probably use chicken and I've seen many people stress that it is cheaper than, or the same price of, kibble. Now that the vet suspects a problem with her "circularly feeding" I feel more of a desire to seriously consider (/convince the boyfriend to consider) feeding Jerzey raw. I would assume that on raw she would also eat less overall, which woud be good and I've heard SO many positive things.... I want those too!









So, I think my main questions are: how should I split up the RMB, MM, and OM ratio? (I know not to add supplements right away, although I will probably add the fish oil since I know she does well with it.) Should I switch cold turkey (we're just about out of kibble so I kind of just want to be done with it and switch cold turkey.) Any other advice would be great. 

Thanks again for being such a wonderful resource for all of the new RAW feeders!

Oh, and here are some pictures for reference:


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I am interested in feeding raw too but no one has been too helpful here lately. I posted a question a couple of weeks ago asking for advice with a grocery list I had just bought and got no one to answer.One thing I noticed was you said she had runny stools after liver,that is common from what I have read.It looks as though liver should be very small amounts like a dime size portion every few day.I have been supplementing Athena's meals with Chicken leg for breakfast and supper is 2 C of kibble and sometimes I add sardines or hamburg.I add some pork bones every so often to change it up.I haven't gone completely raw because I can't get the guidance I want to do it right.Hope you can get more help than I have.There's too much conflicting advice out there to weed through.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGI am interested in feeding raw too but no one has been too helpful here lately. I posted a question a couple of weeks ago asking for advice with a grocery list I had just bought and got no one to answer.


That's really disappointing. I guess I'll just have to wait and see.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

ya I was a little disappointed.I would have thought someone would have helped out.Oh well that's my luck,I usually have to figure things out for myself.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

One other note is you may not want to give apple cores.I think I read it's too hard for them to digest the seeds and core.If your concerned more of her not eating than what she's eating I add to there kibble to change the flavor.I'll add plain applesauce or plain yogurt to the kibble and they usually eat it up right away.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Where is the question you posted before...I must have missed it? I'll try to go for the OP here in a few...


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

You really just have to jump into it and see how your dog does.







My dog did fine with any amount of organ meat right from the beginning, but she will not tolerate more than 2 oz of raw tripe per day without getting the runs. Every dog is so different, it may be difficult to give personal advice. 

I started with chicken necks, skin removed, and lean ground turkey. After 3 days of good poop, I added 1/2 oz of liver, and so on, watching her poop closely. If your dog is sensitive with new foods, I would start with a single protein source like chicken necks with chicken breast for MM, if you have good poops for a week or two, add something new like a bit of chicken liver. There is no rush to introduce new foods, strive for balance over time.

I would switch cold turkey, some dogs have problems when fed raw and kibble, even if fed at different times of the day.

Adding natural, unflavored yogurt with live active cultures will help balance the good bacteria in the gut and will help with digestion.

Keep adding the salmon oil, also (if you hadn't been) add a 400 IU Vitamin E capsule with the oil daily (processing fish oil uses Vit E, and a dog can end up deficient if it's not added).

HERE is a thread from Leerburg that has a link to an Excel file that calculates the oz/day you should feed. This helped me out a lot in the beginning. A small kitchen scale is also a big help.

I hope this helps! Jerzey (great name BTW!) WILL thank you for the switch!


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSD
> 
> So, I think my main questions are: how should I split up the RMB, MM, and OM ratio? (I know not to add supplements right away, although I will probably add the fish oil since I know she does well with it.) Should I switch cold turkey (we're just about out of kibble so I kind of just want to be done with it and switch cold turkey.) Any other advice would be great.


Well, the ratio of RMB's to MM will vary depending on which RMB's you are feeding and your dog. If I am feeding chicken quarters, I use approx 80% quarters and 20% MM (probably even more than 80% quarters for my female). Turkey necks are very boney and they get maybe 40% necks and 60% MM. You just have to look at the poop and adjust accordingly. 

We switched cold turkey. I used just chicken for 3-4 weeks (my male had allergies and i wanted to see if it was diet releated). I also did not add any OM at first until I knew my dogs did not have any problems with the raw food itself. OM can be rich and can cause the runs.

Hope that helps a little!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ahlamaranaKeep adding the salmon oil, also (if you hadn't been) add a 400 IU Vitamin E capsule with the oil daily (processing fish oil uses Vit E, and a dog can end up deficient if it's not added).


I didn't realize that! Thanks for the tip!



> Originally Posted By: ahlamarana HERE is a thread from Leerburg that has a link to an Excel file that calculates the oz/day you should feed. This helped me out a lot in the beginning. A small kitchen scale is also a big help.


AMAZING! THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



> Originally Posted By: ahlamaranaI hope this helps! Jerzey (great name BTW!) WILL thank you for the switch!


And thanks! Hehe.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Registered: 11/04/08 
Posts: 697 
Loc: NH 

Online 
Ok I just went shopping and this is what I got for Athena. Can someone help me with a menu for a day or 2 so I get the idea of what is right.I will be feeding a meal of kibble but I figure I can add in the meat and veggies else where.I don't want to go all the way till I get some meat contacts.
Chicken legs,pork liver,hamburg,turkey necks,pork neck bones,beef bones (some meat but not a whole lot them),sardines in water,yogurt,squash,peas,carrots,applesauce (unsweetened),zucchini I froze last year. I have other meat I can probably add in if needed for more protien.If I have missed anything I can always get it in town,I think meat prices were better in town than out.I think I will be going to a Super Walmart tomorrow to so if any meats I need are cheaper there I can get it.
Athena is 9 months old and weighs 63 or so pounds.Thanks for your time. 
_________________________
Velma Von Hena-C AKA Athena 5/4/08 http://www.dogster.com/dogs/925796
Lexi Mixed breed Pug,Boston Terrrier,Boxer
Allie 
This was my original post.Everythign can still apply except Athena is now 65lbs.Maybe someone can clear this up too.Do you really need to add veggies and fruit.Some say no some yes?I don't care either way.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

So, I am not any good with math but according to my calculations:

We pay about $1/lb for her current puppy food (Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy.) The adult food we'd like to switch her to (we were considering Eukanuba's or Royal Canin's German Shepherd specialty mix) will cost about $1.30/lb.

Jerzey eats 2 meals of three cups each (assuming she's in the "eating" mood... which she has been the past two days, yay!), with each meal weighing in at .08 lbs. So, totally, she's eating 1.6 lbs of kibble a day (****!) causing us to pay $1.60 for her food a day.

If I fed her raw, at 2% of her body weight, she would need 1.5 lbs of food a day (or 1.8 lbs at 3% of her body weight, but I would start her off on he lower end and see how she does, adding if needed.)

So, basically, if I can find meat for about $1/lb I will be feeding Jerzey raw for the same price I am feeding her kibble (actually, for 10 cents less.







)

Then, if we consider her adult food will be a bit more that leaves for a bit of wiggle room to find meat for $1-$1.30/lb which would make raw the exact price as kibble! .... but so much healthier!

Does this sound like a correct assumption? And at all possible? 

I must admit, however, that these new calculations make me extremely hopeful that this actually _will _be a cost effective way to feed Jerzey the best quality we can! The only part that sucks is that I do not have the means to buy in bulk, at the moment. So I'll have to surf grocery adds weekly.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

So, the butcher down the street doesn't have neck or heart.







I guess I'll have to check the supermarket. We have Harris Teeter, Kroger, and Food Lion.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

That's what I target for.I figure chicken legs or whole chickens are between .59 and .99 cents a pound so I can spend more on hamburg or roasts if needed.The organ meats and bones are usually cheap too.I look at any meat that is going out of date and sales too.I have a freezer so I can somewhat stock up if I find sales.If you add supplements that can add up too.I figure if I can spend less that $1.75 a lb averaged between all prices I can handle it.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

AllieG,

Do you get your stuff from the grocery store? Everyone raves about SuperWalmart but we don't have one. UGH! I was looking in the sale ads and Teeter had drumsticks for $1.29/lb, which seems like an AWFUL deal compared to what you're getting. However, this may be the fresher ones from the store butcher than the pre-package stuff. I'm actually writing a list right now of all chicken products I should look for and what category they fit under (RMB, MM, OM) so I can go to the grocery store and start looking around to see what kind of prices they have. I know I can get MM cheaper, they sell a chicken heart/gizzards mix (which I actually already have some of in the freezer as a treat), so I should at least be able to use those as MM for cheaper than probably anything else, including ground chicken. 

Question to all: I notice people seem to start with RMB and MM so am I correct in assume that I should wait until I have firm poops to introdce OM?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

We have a little shop n save in town that I get the legs for under $1.00 a pound,the whole legs are cheaper than the cut up ones.I got 5lbs of legs at Super Wal Mart for around .59 a pond.We have Market basket,Hannafords and Super Wal Mart to choose from. How much can you get whole chickens for?I have no problem cutting them up if it's the cheapest route.I'm not sure on all organ meat but liver is one to give small amounts,it tends to make them have loose poops.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG How much can you get whole chickens for?


Not sure! Although that would be something to look into... I'm assuming you just chop it up and use the respective pieces as the RMB or MM? Or does it all kind of count as RMB because it's full of bones?

I _really_ need to get my butt to the grocery store!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I would consider it RMB since it is on the bone.I also use the bag of gizzards for the dogs if I use the chicken for myself.The liver is too big for a serving so only use 1/2 of it at a time.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> Maybe someone can clear this up too.Do you really need to add veggies and fruit.Some say no some yes?I don't care either way.


I feed prey model raw, so I try to imitate the whole prey the dog would eat in the wild. I feed green tripe instead of veggies, it contains already-processed greens that are easy for the dog to digest, along with digestive enzymes and probiotics.

I feed fresh over-ripe low-sugar berries only when they are in season.



> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSD
> Question to all: I notice people seem to start with RMB and MM so am I correct in assume that I should wait until I have firm poops to introdce OM?


I would wait a week or so, then start with just a bit of OM to see how it's tolerated. Don't add more than one new thing at a time, so you know what's to blame if there is a problem.

Another thing that helped me in the beginning was to keep a log of everything that goes in and everything that comes out







. This will help to see patterns and it will make you feel more comfortable feeding raw.

If you are shopping at grocery stores, I would try to get whole chickens to start. I can get them here for $.69/lb, and as it's whole prey, you don't need to add extra MM (OM is usually included, too). I usually chop them into 4 chunks to feed.

I probably wouldn't use hard bones like beef, pork, turkey necks on a new-to-raw dog. They need some time to build up the stomach enzymes they use to digest bones. I tried pork necks fairly early on my dog and she vomited a pretty large quantity of bone pieces. Every dog is different, though!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks ahlamarana! I'll really have to look into the whole chickens. (I think I might have to buy a set of better knives for that, though!) So if she's meant to eat 1.5 lbs (based on 2% of her body weight) so I just cut the chicken up until it reaches that amount? Should I try to specifically include different parts of the chicken in each meal? Or if I, as you said, simply cut it into 4 (or whatever number) chucks and throw one in her bowl that should be a good starting point?

I feel like I'm repeating what you obviously stated above but I just want to be SURE.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: JerzeyGSDThanks ahlamarana! I'll really have to look into the whole chickens. (I think I might have to buy a set of better knives for that, though!) So if she's meant to eat 1.5 lbs (based on 2% of her body weight) so I just cut the chicken up until it reaches that amount? Should I try to specifically include different parts of the chicken in each meal? Or if I, as you said, simply cut it into 4 (or whatever number) chucks and throw one in her bowl that should be a good starting point?
> 
> I feel like I'm repeating what you obviously stated above but I just want to be SURE.


For example, the chickens I get are about 3 lbs (fryers). Cut in half, that is 1.5 lbs or one day's food. If you are feeding 2 meals per day, cut the half in half and there you go. Don't worry about including different parts of the chicken in each meal, just feed bony parts with meat-heavy parts (wing with breast). The chicken leg quarters that I get are about 1 lb each. I feed 2 meals per day, so I would feed one leg quarter for one meal and cut another leg/thigh apart and feed either the leg or the thigh for the second meal of the day. Remember, balance over time. If you are consistently underfeeding or overfeeding you will notice it in the condition of the dog, and you can adjust. Does that make sense?

You can cut smaller pieces to get exact weights for each feeding if it makes you more comfortable, It's just a PITA and takes time. I like to make it as easy as possible, 'cause I'm lazy.









A good poultry shears is helpful, I can cut through whole rabbit and deer rib bones with mine.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

What exactly is green tripe and where do I find it?I see tripe (YUCK) in the store but haven't seen green tripe.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I would do a search for green tripe. Some people buy it in cans at the pet store. I buy mine from greentripe.com. They are on the West Coast, but I am sure there is a place further east that sells it. 

Green tripe is def. not the same as the stuff you buy in the store.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

Green tripe is the stomach of ruminants. I get mine fresh when I or someone I know has something butchered. I had a lamb butchered this week, so that should keep me in the stinky stuff for a while. If I run out of free tripe, I buy frozen from Taylor Pond Farms . I have a distributor here. If you are going to buy tripe, I highly suggest you get the ground variety, cutting up tripe is a pretty horrendous.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Thank you all for the information you have given us to feed our GSD better.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

If you buy it frozen, I suggest not letting it completely thaw before cutting up as well. The stuff is, um, quite potent...but the dogs absolutely LOVE it.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Frozen ground green tripe is ideal to handle and feed. It's so beneficial, too. It is just much less stankerous when, as Melissa says, it is still kinda frosty when ya feed it.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I'll have to keep my eyes open for it.The price online at Petco was ridiculous.How much do you feed of it so I can get an idea of the cost when I buy it.Also Pork chops are OK for them right?Our local store has them for .99 a lb this week so I thought of stocking up on them for her.I have read some people prefer not to feed pork for the trichinosis thing.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

With shipping, tripe costs almost $2/lb. So, it is one of the more expensive items on the menu here. 

Pork - sure, I feed necks becuase I get them closer to .50/lb or less. But, pork has been known to cause gas in some dogs, so I would limit the amount your pup gets at first to see how she handles it.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: mspiker03
> Pork - sure, I feed necks becuase I get them closer to .50/lb or less. But, pork has been known to cause gas in some dogs, so I would limit the amount your pup gets at first to see how she handles it.


Interesting. I'm assuming they count as an MM?


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Pork necks = RMB. They are quite boney actually.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: mspiker03Pork necks = RMB. They are quite boney actually.


I meant pork chops as an MM! Sorry...


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

If they have bones, they are RMB. Each RMB has a different amount of bone:meat ratio so if there is a lot of meat attached to the bone, your pup *may* not need any extra MM. If the RMB is quite boney (like turkey necks, chicken backs, pork necks, etc) then you will need to add quite a bit of MM.

But again, I would go easy on the pork to start out with - just in case!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: mspiker03
> But again, I would go easy on the pork to start out with - just in case!


Will do!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

So, I see whole fryer chickens for .59 cents/lb. YAY! This is wonderful. Everything else (breasts, legs) are closer to $1.30/lb. Do they come with the organs? And, since we're JUST going to be transitioning the dog should I hold off and save them for a later time? Do you think a newly raw fed dog will be able to handle this? Of should I try to pull some of the meat off the bone and give her a leg or something with bone in to get her used to the idea of eating bone? I don't doubt that she'll eat the meat... haha. I guess I just can't imagine her eating a quarter of a chicken! (or whatever turns out to be the right weight.)


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I also just found chicken leg quarters (at a different store) for .79 cents/lb. Would it be better for me to start with these, as I plan to pick BOTH up tomorrow (esp. considering both are cheaper than my kibble costs twice as much!!)

I'm oddly exciting about this and hope they're still in stock when I get back to school from Spring Break tomorrow.


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## ahlamarana (Sep 22, 2008)

I would go with the whole chickens just because it's cheaper. What a good price! Also, the leg bones of fryers are usually smaller than the leg quarters that you buy separately, so they should be somewhat softer/easier for your dog to digest.

Whole chickens usually have the heart, liver and neck stuffed inside, sometimes in a little bag. I would freeze the liver for now, but the neck and heart are fine to feed right away. 

With a dog new to raw, I would probably feed the breast/wing/back (smaller, softer bones than weight-bearing leg/thigh) first and if everything goes ok the leg/thigh combo the next day. Either way, she should not have any problem crunching/digesting any chicken bone right from the start.

You may need to hand feed her at first, I had to do this with my dog. She would not pick up and eat raw food on her own, I had to hold it for her. She's such a baby.










ETA: Something else to keep in mind, feeding larger chunks and feeding by hand will encourage your dog to chew before swallowing, she may try to gulp down smaller pieces and give you a heart attack.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

You will get leg Qs off the whole chickens so I would just buy those.

You can cut the chicken into pieces - leg Qs, wings, back and breasts and feed them accordingly.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Great, thanks for all of your help!


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