# Pohranicni Straze (Czech Border Patrol)



## cassadee7

I am wondering about these lines. Are there particular characteristics you'd expect to see in a pup from these lines?


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## Jessiewessie99

Why would you want a Border patrol dog?

ETA: I was thinking way to into the term "Border Patrol Dog"


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## Jax08

Wow..those are some gorgeous dogs!
Ehret German Shepherds -Breeding Program


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## cassadee7

Jessica,

I don't want a Border Patrol dog, exactly, but some of the breeders of working GSDs have these lines in their dogs' pedigrees, so I am wondering what one would expect from pups with this lineage. I see a lot of Pohranicni Straze in pedigrees I am looking at.


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## cliffson1

Why wouldn't you want a z PS dog???? Does somebody know something about them that would raise a question about them. I would sure like to learn about their negatives for future reference!


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## Jessiewessie99

cassadee7 said:


> Jessica,
> 
> I don't want a Border Control dog, exactly, but some of the breeders of working GSDs have these lines in their dogs' pedigrees, so I am wondering what one would expect from pups with this lineage. I see a lot of Pohranicni Straze in pedigrees I am looking at.


I looked at the site again and was thinking you wanted a Border patrol dog as a pet, and I was think ing way into the title.lol. Thanks for the clear up


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## Vinnie

Jessie - the Pohranicni Straze Kennel was a government run kennel in the Czech Republic before the wall came down that bred GSDs. They were used as border patrol dogs back in those days. 

The Pohranicni Straze dogs are still pretty common in the Czech line GSDs and I'd expect them to have similar characteristics as is known to "Czech GSDs".


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## Vinnie

Here's a search of this board's past topics on Czech GSD Bloodlines. Maybe you'll find it helpful.

German Shepherd Dog Forums - Search Results
(includes this one  )


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## Ace952

Jiri Novotny was responsible for the breeding program. 
Ask him Jinopo.cz

I just got my puppy from him.


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## cassadee7

Ace952 said:


> Jiri Novotny was responsible for the breeding program.
> Ask him Jinopo.cz
> 
> I just got my puppy from him.


Hey thanks, great info! I googled him and his program and they state they breed for "very good body conformation, strong bone, good pigmentation and strong health. They are also significant for their high food drive, high working drives and early working maturity. .... trainability, solid nerves, and ability to protect their territory."

If anyone here has a dog from these lines, I'd like to know if this description holds true for your dog.

Very interesting, thank you.


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## TitonsDad

Mine is a half Czech line. He's perfect in every way. What you posted is exactly what Titon is. Titon's grandfather was the Czech national champion in 2007. Erri z Blatenskeho zamku SchH3, IPO3, ZVV1 Nat'l champion Czech Republic 2007 

-E


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## GSD07

I wonder if you find any kennel regardless of the lines that would state that they breed for "poor body conformation, weak bone, bad pigmentation and weak health"... Sorry, I just couldn't resist 

I think Czech dogs are very cool, and I would love to watch a Czech puppy grow (hint  ) .


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## VomBlack

I think the z PS dogs are absolutely gorgeous, Odin has some z PS dogs on his mother's side. I'd love a dog with more Czech lines, I love the build and the pigmentation. :wub:


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## JakodaCD OA

Masi's "mom" is a Eurosport girl out of Galant P x Max (wanda's Max) Besides being a "looker" (I am of course biased), she has been so far, a great dog. 

If your looking for a social butterfly, Masi is not. She's got alot of energy and ready to try anything you throw in front of her. She's really coming into her own as she matures but I would say she is not for the faint of heart Easy trainer, very 'into' her people. I don't want to say very protective, but she is very possessive of me? maybe the right way to explain her. 

She is always on high alert out in public , is quiet, and a 'watcher'..


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## cliffson1

The z PS dogs were almost a subset of the Czech dogs. They were from one of three breeding stations that provided dog for military and sometimes police in Czechaslovakia. Up until about 15 years ago these dogs tended to be rather sharp in that they were used for military. The distinguishing aspects of the z PS dogs were the physical stature of heads, bone, and black sable that was acquired from the influx of about 5 to 7 DDR dogs into the border patrol breeding progran some thirty to forty years ago. When the curtain came down in 1990, and the influx of Eastern block dogs became available to the West, the z PS dogs were still very much geared to Law Enforcement. By 2003 (approx), when the z PS breeding station was closed these dogs were undergoing a transformation that made them very much like the ideals that the "founder" envisioned in a utility working down. They became very desired and successful as a police dog and also made for excellent family dogs in the tradition of the breed. At this period of time(2000), they were not preferred for sport as they still possessed more defense and less prey drive than was desired for high end sport work. But, oh how money and exhibitions will transform things. Because of the popularity of the type (block head,bone, color), people started breeding these lines to become more "sportier". This has been a double edge sword, for the sport world it has opened up genetic diversity thus helping the breed in the sport world as they inserted more prey drive and less defense into these dogs. For Law Enforcement, we don't find the Czech dogs as "guaranteed dogs to become law enforcement candidates as we did 15 years ago.
Many times today you hear oldtimers describe the current Czech dogs in terms of what they were before the curtain came down, and you also hear internet or conformation junkies that have only heard or maybe seen a few of these dogs today as misdescribing them based on what they read or heard. They are probably as close to the standard in terms of what the founder wanted the breed to be as you will find today. 
ps I had the opportunity to purchase Naya z PS, from the last litter that could ever carry the z PS prefix in 2005 as the breeding station was being closed. Nonetheless, I own a female sired by Tom z PS, who was one of the great dogs of past twenty-five years.


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## GSD07

Cliff, thanks so much for the overview!! I wonder whey the breeding station was closed? As far as I know, the borders in that area of the world still exist.


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## TitonsDad

JakodaCD OA said:


> Masi's "mom" is a Eurosport girl out of Galant P x Max (wanda's Max) Besides being a "looker" (I am of course biased), she has been so far, a great dog.
> 
> If your looking for a social butterfly, Masi is not. She's got alot of energy and ready to try anything you throw in front of her. She's really coming into her own as she matures but I would say she is not for the faint of heart Easy trainer, very 'into' her people. I don't want to say very protective, but she is very possessive of me? maybe the right way to explain her.
> 
> She is always on high alert out in public , is quiet, and a 'watcher'..


Titon's sir is a Eurosport as well. Draegone.


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## gagsd

This dog is linebred 3-4 on Grim Porhranicni Straze (came to me by accident, a club member bought her and then changed her mind). Small female, 22 inches, 55 pounds. I have been told by my trainer (who imported and worked several of the DDR type dogs) that she very much resembles the old DDR dogs. Wedge shaped, squarish head. Very straight.
Temperament is hard to judge as I have no idea what happened to her before she came here. But I do see lots of defense, and she does have a good deal of natural suspicion. Not a dog for everyone, certainly.
She likes to make me happy and is very loving, but not clingy. Neat dog, and I will probably start her in protection next summer or fall.

Then there is my other girl, here. Very self assured to the point of being completely obnoxious right now. Full of drive, funny and really, really athletic. I do see a serious touch to her now, and it will be interesting to watch how she matures. She literally will beat the tar out of my adult dog and does not back down over food, toys, etc. More social tahn my older girl above, but a TON of puppy in a little package.
Physically, she is much prettier and typier than the first female I linked.


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## cassadee7

Thanks Cliff! Very informative.


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## TitonsDad

Here's Titon's Sire lineage if you'd like to look. 

Here


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## cassadee7

I appreciate you all sharing your experiences and info. It is nice that there are so many people here with great insights!


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## jaggirl47

I have a Czech female with alot of z PS in her. She is amazingly smart and has out of this world focus (even at 14 weeks). Her trainer at the club (who has been doing this for around 30 years) said she has never seen a pup this age so focused and into her tracking.
So anyway, she is extremely bright, focused, confident, friendly, and just overall amazing with nerves of steel.


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## AliPSU

my pup is from a czech line out of PA. he was just diagnosed with pituitary dwarfism and hypothyroidism after 3 months of medical **** for the little guy. the breeders were going to euthanize him at the vet my mom works at. so, as with any breeder be careful about health problems. we've been trying to get in touch with the breeder to make sure the parents don't produce any more litters together as it was inherited by BOTH parents. besides his health problems, he is adorable, sweet as can be, and extremely intelligent.


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## Smithie86

We imported in 4 Grim PS grandchildren; Enzo and Emi (who we kept and titled), Dax (titled and sold) and Extra (who superior k9 bought from us and is one of their stud dogs in ATL - but it is a foto of Enzo on their resource page...??)


No health issues at all. Emi is retired (KK1, SCH1) and produced active family dogs, dual certified police k9s and sport dogs. She is now a service dog for an autistic child (we donated her to the friend). Enzo is retired and was noted at his koer for life about his excellent physical condition. Very high fight drive and Cara can boss him around. But, do not mess with him...

Excellent structure, color and working ability.

I have a daughter of Enzo (*Mia) that looks like her mother 9bi-color) but acts like her father... This should be a fun and rough ride......


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## VonKromeHaus

I have heard that Czech lines tend to be more aloof with strangers. I have witnessed this with Czech dogs in my club. However, both of them are females and one is semi-social whereas the other one has no hesitation to bite at all. Neither of them are what I would consider great family dogs. 

That said, I like the Czech line dogs and am planning on doing an outcross with Judge over a Czech bitch this spring. That cross will/should really be nice and create very nice balanced puppies(none available). 

It depends on what you really want in a family dog on what lines you go with. I do like the Czech dogs!


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## gagsd

VonKromeHaus said:


> I have heard that Czech lines tend to be more aloof with strangers. I have witnessed this with Czech dogs in my club. However, both of them are females and one is semi-social whereas the other one has no hesitation to bite at all. Neither of them are what I would consider great family dogs....
> 
> It depends on what you really want in a family dog on what lines you go with. I do like the Czech dogs!



I think they are great WITH their family. But if you want a dog that will let the meter man in (mine at least) these lines may not be it.


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## JakodaCD OA

Mary too funny RE; the meter man.. Masi on the other hand, will let anyone in the house, (good thing I have the male aussie "hitler" always on guard!) but out in public , just leave her alone if she doesn't know you,,suspicious and tends to have high defense drives. She can "hang" with a hundred people or one person (strangers) happily, but does not care to socialize with them. So I would say VERY aloof with strangers, altho she gravitates towards drunken men (go figure we don't drink!) !

She is actually probably the first GSD , I feel totally safe with going anywhere, doing anything alone, altho she's never had to prove herself & I hope she never does


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## Castlemaid

Cassadee, you probably heard this a million times, but worth repeating, whichever line you go with, choose a breeder whose focus is to breed working dogs, as opposed to breeding Czech dogs, (or West German, or DDR, etc). In that make sure they work and title their own dogs, or have YEARS of experience doing so, and HAVE worked and titled many, MANY dogs in the past so that they do have the experience necessary to maintain the working characteristic of the breed. Dogs bred with working ability in mind still make WONDERFUL house/family pets (just look at Gryffon!). 

Some time ago, I was reading another board. There was person on that board who was looking for a dog for Schutzhund - this person already had a dog, but it was reactive and weak nerved, so not suitable for the training. Other members on the board, a couple of breeders of Czech dogs actually, kept insisting that this person SHOULD be able to do Schutzhund with the existing dog because of the dog's pedigree, and if it was weak nerved and reactive, then something must have happened to make the dog that way. (the irony is that a solid dog will bounce back from trauma, unless the trauma is extreme). These breeders blaming the owner always just bought titled dogs, but never so much as titled one themselves, and rested on the laurels of famous dogs in the pedigree of their breeding dogs and on the work of past breeders who DID title dogs themselves prior to breeding. 

It was quite revealing to me just why so many people always harp on "make sure the breeders you go with actually work the dogs" even if the buyer is only looking for a pet. Nerve and temperament can be lost within one generation of poor breeding practices.


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## cliffson1

There are weak nerves and shy/aggressive temperaments in all subsets of the breed. That's why people are so adament in saying that all the subsets can still work; and all the subsets have shy/aggressive dogs from weak nerves. This is like hip dyplasia in that you will never completely eradicate it from the breed as the foundation stock of the breed possessed some dogs that were weak nerved. 
The issue as a breeder and consumer is whether the person who is breeding is one that consistently produces 6 or 7 dogs out of an 8 dog litter that will have solid nerve and work, or is it a breeder that produces 1 or 2 dogs that will work and the other six being weak in nerve and temperament. The responsible breeder will have litters with pups capable of working as normal and the weak nerved dog as an exception. The breeders that produce dogs where working traits are the exception are out there in bundles with fancy websites, ribbons, and excuses on why you don't see their dogs working as the breed was meant to do. Do you homework!!


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## gagsd

JakodaCD OA said:


> Mary too funny RE; the meter man.. Masi on the other hand, will let anyone in the house, (good thing I have the male aussie "hitler" always on guard!)


Diane, my Aussie is the only dog I have owned to get someone on our property. The UPS guy pulled up, and Cobi was in the truck after the guy before I knew what was going on. No fear or weak nerves there, just very territorial!!


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## VonKromeHaus

As I said I like the Czech dogs. They do tend to be more aloof. Depending on your household, that can be OK, a good thing or a bad thing. I do think that it is very important to go with a breeder that has titled many dogs and has a lot of experience or one who is still titling many dogs. Judge's breeder has some health issues that keeps her from trialing anymore but she still works her dogs at training every week. (She can take the necessary breaks, she needs there etc.) I would not want a dog from a breeder where the working dogs are the exception not the rule. I want it reversed and the working dogs need to be the rule. 

Good Luck and I know that you are doing your homework. The AKC show is this coming weekend down at the park! Come by and say Hi!! GSDs show at 12:25 in the conformation ring Saturday and 1:00 Sunday. I'll be at the OB rings with Judge!


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## JakodaCD OA

Mary LOL,,some of those aussies can be nasty little buggers..Jag (my male) is a cute little black bi boy, but looks are deceiving, cracks me up when people would/will look at my shepherds and hesitate, when it's the darn aussie they gotta watch out for


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## cassadee7

Castlemaid said:


> It was quite revealing to me just why so many people always harp on "make sure the breeders you go with actually work the dogs" even if the buyer is only looking for a pet. Nerve and temperament can be lost within one generation of poor breeding practices.


Absolutely! At first I didn't think it really mattered and wondered why people even made an issue out of it. But over time, reading, research and visiting breeders who work their dogs AND who don't work their dogs I could see the difference for myself, and now I get it. 

I am not particularly looking for a Czech dog at all, but since I see Pohranicni Straze in the pedigrees of sires and dams of breeders I am considering, I figured I ought to know what they're all about


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## JakodaCD OA

Shawn, I'll ship Masi to you for a few days and you can see first hand)) But then again, I couldn't bare to part with her, and I'm sure you'd be ready for the looney bin after a few hours with her ))


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## cassadee7

JakodaCD OA said:


> Shawn, I'll ship Masi to you for a few days and you can see first hand)) But then again, I couldn't bare to part with her, and I'm sure you'd be ready for the looney bin after a few hours with her ))


She's a Helga daughter, right?? I think I got the picture with Helga! 

Masi is gorgeous though


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## JakodaCD OA

yes )) ahhh that's right you met the spawns tasmanian devil momma,,I forgot)


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## DTS

my pup has Pohranicni Straze in her breeding. she definately is very alert with strangers. but she is weird about it. 5 people could walk by and her not notice. 2 more people not notice.. then someone else comes by and she freaks. get scared fear barks. she loves her family our immidiate family that she has come accustomed to seeing. but id watch out if you came around my house and she not know you. for me, it could go either way do i want someone ax murderer or burglar coming in and not hearing a peep absolutely not. but when my friends come over to meet her for the first time if your a male, she won't let you off the couch. i wouldn't get czech lines, especially these if this is your first gsd and you have no knowledge what so ever. but it made me learn a lot quick. thats just my opinion


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## onyx'girl

I have a Czech/WG WL and he is the best thing ever...I wouldn't blame the Czech lines on the unstable temperament of Tara.


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## elisabeth_00117

I have been around a few Czech dogs and a DDR/WG/Czech female and I can tell you that I have seen nothing but positive things from these lines.

I am currently researching breedings of these lines and have been nothing but impressed.

I don't think it has anything to do with the Czech lines.. I personally believe that the issues you are seeing is from having a dog from a breeding that wasn't planned or thought out.


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## dukethegsd

duke is of czech decent has a high pray drive very territorial of his home and family .he needs lots of exercise,strong boned solid nerves. don't ever raise your hand to him because he will tear it off. confident as all get out he just does not coward at all but loves his family to death i guess i hit the mother load with my czeck gsd hes awesome!


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## JustMeLeslie

Victor is from the Czech lines(Pohranicni Straze) also. Everyone is right about it is so important to do your homework on the lines. It absolutely matters about how the lines are mixed. I did not know anything about the different lines when I first got Victor. Boy, I sure do now. Victor and Jamie(American/German lines) are total opposites. Victor is from Czech lines and American/German showlines. Victor is very aggressive towards anyone but my husband and myself. Everyone is a stranger in his eyes other than us. He has a very high energy drive and is always alert. If he hears any noise or sound out of the normal he is up and ready to get someone. To say he is aloof to strangers is an understatement. He is very serious about protection whether it is his yard, us, house,our vehicles anything. He is like this 24/7. Even when he is sleeping he will jump up to a strange noise and is ready to get the "bad" guy.

It is a true statement to say these dogs are not for just anyone. Like said before if you want a social butterfly this line is not for you. This is just my experience with Victor. I am not saying that all Czech dogs are like this. I am just letting you know the personality traits that my boy possesses.


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## elisabeth_00117

I think those with mixed lines (although my boy is not mixed with Czech lines, he is a mix of show and working) needs to understand the strengths and weakness in all the lines that are combined.

I think it's interesting that the few people who posted on this thread with nerve/behavioural issues have some of the same lines in their dogs.


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## gagsd

Aggression without strength of nerve is a recipe for disaster, as is aggression with an owner who expects/wants an accepting, friendly dog.


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## elisabeth_00117

Very true Mary.


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## dukethegsd

there is a fine line between fear and confidence a dog should not cower if someone is aggressive to it if he or she shrieks back in fear then try's to bite that is fear bitting but if there is not no fear and the dog barks to warn first and can recognize real aggression than there is a difference i love how people with passive gsds automatically assume that if a gsd reacts to negative aggressive energy is a fearful coward.


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## cliffson1

...people are definitely learning....Mary and Elizabeth!!


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## elisabeth_00117

Cliff, I'm trying!!!

Thanks to you for being an awesome teacher!


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## gagsd

dukethegsd said:


> ...... i love how people with passive gsds automatically assume that if a gsd reacts to negative aggressive energy is a fearful coward.


Goodness I hope that was not directed at me!


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## dukethegsd

not at all its just that some people just assume that a dog has problems if it is protective or defensive and you cant tell or judge from from a posting on a forum. thats all .


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## onyx'girl

The dog should always look to the handler before assuming it is ok to become aggressive. 
As in Victors case, I think he takes it upon himself to decide...which as Mary posted, a recipe for disaster.


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## cliffson1

I like to see a dog that has good judgement and disgression in making a decision on aggression. During the adolescent period a good dog will learn the boundaries of what is a threat and what is not. Once this is in place I expect the dog to make good judgements, so that if I am not home or if I am home and not willing to give an OK to a stranger...then I expect the dog to show aggression if the stranger ventures too far.


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## Ace952

cliffson1 said:


> I like to see a dog that has good judgement and disgression in making a decision on aggression. During the adolescent period a good dog will learn the boundaries of what is a threat and what is not. Once this is in place I expect the dog to make good judgements, so that if I am not home or if I am home and not willing to give an OK to a stranger...then I expect the dog to show aggression if the stranger ventures too far.


 
Now the questions is, how do you teach that?


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## GSD07

Cliff, I just came here to say the same thing but you put it together so much better  I do expect to see a good judgement in my dog, and I do not want him to always have to look at me for guidance, it would drive me crazy.


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## onyx'girl

But a young pup that decides to take things into his own hands is a recipe for disaster...I would also like my dogs to be individual thinkers, and not rely on my discerning when they need to react. But in the real world of GSD's how many are able to think on their own until they are mature and are shaped to that way of thinking? 
I have a female that thought she needed to be in control of everything, until she matured and mellowed(with constant management). Now she will think first, act second if needed.

Different thresholds, nerves and the handling are all influenced in the reactive behaviors. A DDR is no different than any other line when it comes down to management.


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## GSD07

I apologize, I was talking about a mature dog. A pup is a pup, and the first years of his life are spent learning, no question about that!


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## cliffson1

Exactly, That's why I said during the adolescent period they will learn the boundaries....that's usually puppytime. Its not a matter of formal teaching Ace, its more along the lines of shaping their behavoir during youth period to recognize acceptable and unacceptable. Like herding, we don't teach them to herd, we shape their herding instincts to profit us. Likewise, our dogs are a breed that should be herders in our life....fine when things are ordinary, reactive when they are necessary, and the ability to discern the two. A very important trait of this breed that is often far behind things like structure, drive, and color in people's breeding schemes. JMO


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## dukethegsd

Thats more like it constructive post that benefit all of us as gsd lovers, handlers, and owners, we can learn from each other and not be to critical or defensive when some one offers some good advise. that's why I keep coming back to this forum cause I don't know it all.


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## Wilhoit

Right on, dukethegsd! That's why I'm here, too--to learn. Thanks to all of you for discussing this, and especially to Ace for asking his question and to Cliff for his illuminating reply. It is helping me understand what I had and define what I'm looking for in my next GSD. I had a hunch that the judgement was genetic and that somehow you had to program it, but I never could understand how my dog developed discernment just from my signals--thought it was some big training program you had to go through. Now I know that I just have to learn the best way to "shape" that natural behavior (and, of course choose a dog from the right genetics whose temperament is true to his/her heritage). Thanks again, you all!


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## BlackthornGSD

cliffson1 said:


> Exactly, That's why I said during the adolescent period they will learn the boundaries....that's usually puppytime. Its not a matter of formal teaching Ace, its more along the lines of shaping their behavoir during youth period to recognize acceptable and unacceptable. Like herding, we don't teach them to herd, we shape their herding instincts to profit us. Likewise, our dogs are a breed that should be herders in our life....fine when things are ordinary, reactive when they are necessary, and the ability to discern the two. A very important trait of this breed that is often far behind things like structure, drive, and color in people's breeding schemes. JMO


Interestingly, this is one of the traits that my American bred boy, Thorn, had. Of course, he was a remarkable dog in many ways (CDX, SchH3 several times). But even when he was a young dog and before we'd started doing schutzhund, if I went to a public place and walked through a park he was friendly and easygoing with everyone. Meeting a new person or dog was never tense. But if I stopped and sat down at a picnic table, he set up a zone around me--people could walk by without him moving or making a sound, but let a person turn toward me and face me for more than a few seconds and he would start growling and if I didn't look up and speak to him or the person, he would escalate into barking. He did the same thing on other occasions too--only when I wasn't paying attention and I was stationary.

He also became very protective of my mother when we drove across country together--he watched her out the hotel window as she went to put her bag in the car one day. He was quiet, then suddenly let out a terrible snarl/bark sound, then went quiet again. I looked out the window quickly to see that a man had walked between him and my mom--but as soon as the man moved away without stopping, Thorn stopped growling.

I haven't a dog with this sort of judgment and natural protectiveness since--until I got Oda--who is a 100% DDR daughter my Xita. She has been willing to guard me since she was 10 weeks old, when she growled at a man who was making hard eye contact with her. She is neutral/friendly to people and dogs in general, but if I stop and stand/sit in one place, she will set up a zone around me that no one is allowed to approach--at 6 months old, she's already demonstrated this a dozen times. She still needs to learn judgment, but the instincts are there. I'm trying hard to socialize and "educate" her on the world. She's very different sort of dog than what I'm used to, though.


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## JanaeUlva

I stumbled upon this thread about Czech line GSD and was thrilled to find that Mary has a sister to my pup born 05.11.2010 out of the Erri x Ria breeding and Diehlomov kennel. It was fun to read Mary's description of her fiery pup. Minka is my 3rd GSD and the first from Czech lines. She has rock solid nerves and is very social with people, children and other dogs. Her second Schutzhund session was back in early January at almost 7 months and the trainer was extremely impressed. Her first bite on a puppy sleeve was full mouth and so hard he couldn't slip the sleeve and she left a big bruise and teeth marks! We are using a bite wedge now . At 6 months Minka earned her Herding Instinct Certification. Of the 12 dogs I watched, she was 1 of 2 dogs that went into the pen and worked confidently WITHOUT the owner going in. Needless to say I am very happy and proud of my pup. So far, I think she is a super family dog and is looking to be a super working dog too.


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## cliffson1

We need more posts like your Janaeulva, because we have toomany people that believe that a strong dog with strong drives cannot be handled by a novice or family. You commented on the strength of nerve of your dog than gave examples of strength of character of your dog at a young age. Many of us have tried to give similar information to newer people but it is good to hear it from a family person. It sounds like you have the type of dog that the breed was intended to be, herding capable, protection capable, and family member. I would think that people that don't have dogs with all these deminsions should WANT to see the dogs in your pedigree and see some of the dogs that contribute to a "good" German Shepherd. Especially BREEDERS!


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## JanaeUlva

Why thank you! I think people should look for solid working ability in the pups parents because strong nerve is good for family or working homes. Then it is up to the owner to enhance those good qualities passed on to their puppy. That is why, this time around, I am introducing Minka to many activities not just Schutzhund. We started out with 2 puppy socialization classes, a tricks class, puppy agility, herding and now beginning agility along with Schutzhund. I keep her very busy and introduce her to many new things - children, cats, sheep, swimming, fetching, tugging, snowshoeing, hiking. She goes snowplowing with my husband and on car rides everywhere. I want her to be a well rounded girl and it has proved to be a successful formula so far. With positive motivation and positive experiences she is showing herself to be calm, yet lots of drive to work, an easy keeper in the house, bold, and extremely social. I could not be happier.


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## Samba

Regarding the protective instinct,I too have a dog with this type of guarding protectiveness and suspicion. My old ASL male had a touch of it also. My girl is not a loose cannon but she is suspicious. Not afraid either. It is a trait I will really miss when she is gone. 

JanaeUlva it sounds like you are putting out good work with your dog. This type of dedication to the dog's well being and activity is great. It takes a good dog and a good owner.


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## JanaeUlva

Samba said:


> JanaeUlva it sounds like you are putting out good work with your dog. This type of dedication to the dog's well being and activity is great. It takes a good dog and a good owner.


Thanks again! Time spent in those early years pay off the most in the long run, for both puppies and children


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## Jessiewessie99

I am kind of a newbie to the whole reading pedigrees and learning what different dogs bring when it comes to breeding.

Its kind of a newbie question, but what if the dog you are looking at as a potential sire for when you want a dog has 3 dogs who come from the Pohranicni Straze line, what would someone expect in a pup that has that kind of pedigree? 

Hope that makes sense.:blush:


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## NancyJ

This dog is the love of my life (except for my husband  ) he is an excellent working dog for me and I will be looking for a dog of similar characteristics in about a year as his working replacement to start training. 

He may/may not be bred - still struggling with that. 

Picture is at age 2 and in the summer. He is a bit more muscled that that now. When I got him (at 2.5) a breeder on GSD Euro was highly complimentary of an incredible young dog she had watched at her farm (I think while his original owner, a dog broker, went out of the country).....I thought it was a littermate but it was my dog. 

Grim van der Woude - German shepherd dog

Grim z ps grandson, Bob Cega in the topline. Good bit of DDR scattered in pedigree.

What do I like?

-confident without nerve issues
-incredible working drives
-aloof but approachable - not naturally suspicious (could be a fault for some)
-Very hard to environmental issues/pain.....nothing seems to phase him
-Dog neutral-even ignores snarky dogs - he is a great dog for the tie out tests we do of incoming dogs.
-He is NOT looking for a fight. I have been told by several LE and one person who worked him that he will fight in defense and not back down, but I have not seen that because I don't do sport. He is certainly tuned into a tug.
-lives to be near me and make me happy (he works for his toy though)- I bonded with this dog the first few days I had him and it is clear he is "my dog"-I am more bonded with him than the female WGR workinglines I got as a puppy. I do not know how to describe the bond I have with this dog. I have had several GSDs and other dogs and it is very deep, very connected.
-excellent health and agility

What don't I like
-He is a bit more handler senstive than I am used to. He does not shut down but I have never needed more than a flat collar as an evil eye will correct him. -


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## onyx'girl

Your description of Grim is much the same as my Karlo WG/Czech boy. :wub:
Though he won't let me trim his nails without some drama.


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## NancyJ

I have seen a number of very good complimentary West German x Czech Crosses. It has been neat watching the progression of Wildhaus over the years.......


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## MrsWoodcock

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/Nicole_Woodcock/Untitled.jpg

There is my females pedigree. She has some Pohranicni Straze, along with others that have been talked about before.

She has VERY high prey drive, and is reactive when need be. Has had a few set backs with experiences when she was around 6 months of age (got attacked by 3 dogs) But we have been working through it and she is almost back to her full confidence!


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## elisabeth_00117

jocoyn said:


> This dog is the love of my life (except for my husband  ) he is an excellent working dog for me and I will be looking for a dog of similar characteristics in about a year as his working replacement to start training.
> 
> He may/may not be bred - still struggling with that.
> 
> Picture is at age 2 and in the summer. He is a bit more muscled that that now. When I got him (at 2.5) a breeder on GSD Euro was highly complimentary of an incredible young dog she had watched at her farm (I think while his original owner, a dog broker, went out of the country).....I thought it was a littermate but it was my dog.
> 
> Grim van der Woude - German shepherd dog
> 
> Grim z ps grandson, Bob Cega in the topline. Good bit of DDR scattered in pedigree.
> 
> What do I like?
> 
> -confident without nerve issues
> -incredible working drives
> -aloof but approachable - not naturally suspicious (could be a fault for some)
> -Very hard to environmental issues/pain.....nothing seems to phase him
> -Dog neutral-even ignores snarky dogs - he is a great dog for the tie out tests we do of incoming dogs.
> -He is NOT looking for a fight. I have been told by several LE and one person who worked him that he will fight in defense and not back down, but I have not seen that because I don't do sport. He is certainly tuned into a tug.
> -lives to be near me and make me happy (he works for his toy though)- I bonded with this dog the first few days I had him and it is clear he is "my dog"-I am more bonded with him than the female WGR workinglines I got as a puppy. I do not know how to describe the bond I have with this dog. I have had several GSDs and other dogs and it is very deep, very connected.
> -excellent health and agility
> 
> What don't I like
> -He is a bit more handler senstive than I am used to. He does not shut down but I have never needed more than a flat collar as an evil eye will correct him. -


This sounds like my dream dog. :wub:

I know a female of the same characteristics Lexi vom haus Hillsview - German shepherd dog .

Stark's breeder owns her and I have met a few of her progeny (sire was ARAGORN VOM KRAFTWERK - German shepherd dog ) and so far I am liking what I see.

What you described is almost exactly what I am seeing in the pups/young dogs I have met.

I am actually going out there next week hopefully to hang out with her and watch her work/train hopefully too.


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## TitonsDad

jocoyn said:


> This dog is the love of my life (except for my husband  ) he is an excellent working dog for me and I will be looking for a dog of similar characteristics in about a year as his working replacement to start training.
> 
> He may/may not be bred - still struggling with that.
> 
> Picture is at age 2 and in the summer. He is a bit more muscled that that now. When I got him (at 2.5) a breeder on GSD Euro was highly complimentary of an incredible young dog she had watched at her farm (I think while his original owner, a dog broker, went out of the country).....I thought it was a littermate but it was my dog.
> 
> Grim van der Woude - German shepherd dog
> 
> Grim z ps grandson, Bob Cega in the topline. Good bit of DDR scattered in pedigree.
> 
> What do I like?
> 
> -confident without nerve issues
> -incredible working drives
> -aloof but approachable - not naturally suspicious (could be a fault for some)
> -Very hard to environmental issues/pain.....nothing seems to phase him
> -Dog neutral-even ignores snarky dogs - he is a great dog for the tie out tests we do of incoming dogs.
> -He is NOT looking for a fight. I have been told by several LE and one person who worked him that he will fight in defense and not back down, but I have not seen that because I don't do sport. He is certainly tuned into a tug.
> -lives to be near me and make me happy (he works for his toy though)- I bonded with this dog the first few days I had him and it is clear he is "my dog"-I am more bonded with him than the female WGR workinglines I got as a puppy. I do not know how to describe the bond I have with this dog. I have had several GSDs and other dogs and it is very deep, very connected.
> -excellent health and agility
> 
> What don't I like
> -He is a bit more handler senstive than I am used to. He does not shut down but I have never needed more than a flat collar as an evil eye will correct him. -


Why are you talking about Titon?


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## lawhyno

*My Czech male...*

Line bred 3-3 on both sides for Mambo z Pohranicni Straze. My boy is sharp and shows lots of suspicion and aggression towards strangers that enter is territory too quickly. Not a social butterfly by any means… doesn't even like leaving home so much. He is at the same time aloof to strangers and can care less about them if they don't enter is space. He is intensely loyal and focused on me. Wants to please me at all times. Very loving and protective of the family. This is natural protection. I didn't need to put him into protection sport for him to protect the house and family… it's natural in some Czech dogs. That's what they call the "old style." Other characteristics: full strong bites, extreme food drive, high prey drive, willingness to please, calm for the most part but great on and off switch. Clear headed. Big head. Dark sable. Thick bones. Huge male - 90lb solid. We love him.


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## cliffson1

A 3-3 linebreeding on Mambo, if I was asked to due a pedigree analysis would be a dog just like you described. Not all the pups for sure, but certainly the litter would in general reflect these traits. My concern with 3-3 on Mambo would be more on health issues, and making sure the pups go to dog oriented families.


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## Susan_GSD_mom

jocoyn said:


> This dog is the love of my life (except for my husband  ) he is an excellent working dog for me and I will be looking for a dog of similar characteristics in about a year as his working replacement to start training.
> 
> He may/may not be bred - still struggling with that.
> 
> Picture is at age 2 and in the summer. He is a bit more muscled that that now. When I got him (at 2.5) a breeder on GSD Euro was highly complimentary of an incredible young dog she had watched at her farm (I think while his original owner, a dog broker, went out of the country).....I thought it was a littermate but it was my dog.
> 
> Grim van der Woude - German shepherd dog
> 
> Grim z ps grandson, Bob Cega in the topline. Good bit of DDR scattered in pedigree.
> 
> What do I like?
> 
> -confident without nerve issues
> -incredible working drives
> -aloof but approachable - not naturally suspicious (could be a fault for some)
> -Very hard to environmental issues/pain.....nothing seems to phase him
> -Dog neutral-even ignores snarky dogs - he is a great dog for the tie out tests we do of incoming dogs.
> -He is NOT looking for a fight. I have been told by several LE and one person who worked him that he will fight in defense and not back down, but I have not seen that because I don't do sport. He is certainly tuned into a tug.
> -lives to be near me and make me happy (he works for his toy though)- I bonded with this dog the first few days I had him and it is clear he is "my dog"-I am more bonded with him than the female WGR workinglines I got as a puppy. I do not know how to describe the bond I have with this dog. I have had several GSDs and other dogs and it is very deep, very connected.
> -excellent health and agility
> 
> What don't I like
> -He is a bit more handler senstive than I am used to. He does not shut down but I have never needed more than a flat collar as an evil eye will correct him. -


As others have said, this could describe my little boy, a Ginta z Pohranicni Straze grandson. Unfortunately he was abused, starved, neglected, and stunted as a baby/adolescent, so we have dealt with a ton of baggage. But he is a survivor, and I have had him for nearly a year, and he is doing very well. He bonded with me within moments of meeting him the first time, and is with me constantly, without being clingy. He will never compete, but he helps me care for my disabled sister, alerting me to when she needs me, waking me up if she wakes during the night, he took this on by himself, it is his self-appointed job. He is special.


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## David Taggart

West Show line and Working line are concentrated on cross-breeding with Eastern lines at the moment purely for health reasons. Hip dysplasia is almost absent in Eastern lines, and that originally was the only reason to introduce new dogs into already genetically proven lines, Western lines haven't "run out of genes" yet, and the risk of incest is small. Crosses between types generally do not show the extremes of either parent’s type. Czech line was continuously cross-bred with DDR line, Czechs were very protective and DDRs had very soft temperament, nowdays both dog types considered to be one line - neither too protective, or too friendly, they have very high prey drive. But, bred as sports dogs, many modern WGSDs are lacking prey drive. Those who introduced EGSDs into Western line are more than just satisfied - they killed two rabbits with one shot - fighting hip dysplasia, they added something what WGSD started to lose. Though EGSDs are terribly obedient dogs (that is one of their major characteristics), intelligent and easy to train, they are much larger than their Western brethren, and too large a size, in fact, is bad for sports dogs. All breeding/cross-breeding projects are in the middle of nowhere at the moment, despite that new dogs have shown many other good qualities as working dogs. So, if you want just a companion, EGSD could be the most satisfactory (depends on his personality), but, if you want one for sports, I wouldn't advise you to have one.


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## glowingtoadfly

*This is my girl's pedigree*

Macro vom Gildaf


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## glowingtoadfly

She is very ball driven, hard headed and stubborn, yet extremely intelligent. It took us awhile to win her over but now she is very attached, follows us everywhere. Not so into being petted, but will solicit affection, give kisses, etc when she is in the mood. Friendly and bubbly with her family and excited to meet new people, but protective of the house. Easily overaroused as a teen but now at almost 2 learning to settle in the house and control her impulses. Does much better in wooded areas than urban ones and sometimes prefers the house and yard though she gets excited to walk to her favorite places.


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## robk

lawhyno said:


> Line bred 3-3 on both sides for Mambo z Pohranicni Straze. My boy is sharp and shows lots of suspicion and aggression towards strangers that enter is territory too quickly. Not a social butterfly by any means… doesn't even like leaving home so much. He is at the same time aloof to strangers and can care less about them if they don't enter is space. He is intensely loyal and focused on me. Wants to please me at all times. Very loving and protective of the family. This is natural protection. I didn't need to put him into protection sport for him to protect the house and family… it's natural in some Czech dogs. That's what they call the "old style." Other characteristics: full strong bites, extreme food drive, high prey drive, willingness to please, calm for the most part but great on and off switch. Clear headed. Big head. Dark sable. Thick bones. Huge male - 90lb solid. We love him.


My friend has a Mambo daughter. What a gorgeous dog. Solid black, solid as a rock. Great drive. love her to death.


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## glowingtoadfly

I would love to hear what others have to say about her pedigree. I'm a newbie, she was our first dog- I know, why did we choose a challenge like her but I wouldn't have it any other way! She is also lightning fast and doing great with treats for pets to get her better about being handled. We brought her home as a teen who was already hand shy for whatever reason, we don't know her learning history, but she has been doing great.


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## nezzz

My pup 4.5 month pup is a Tom and Grim descendent and I've seen characteristics of both of them in her. Grim's hardness and Tom's conformation are most prominent. Fiercely loyal and close to my family whilst being aloof to strangers, real characteristic of Czech dogs. She is mixed with West German working lines so it blunts some of that crazy drives Czech and DDR dogs sometimes have so she needs more ball and tug training.She is definitely fearless when confronted in situations so I am confident this will translate to good protection drive. She is not human or dog aggressive but reacts defensively and doesn't start fights when not provoked first.

By the way does anyone have more detailed information on Tom and his sire Cordon An-Sat or have their descendants? I've heard from some people including my breeder that Tom and Cordon lived exceptionally long for GSDs due to some longevity gene and breeders used Tom to extend the lives of their breeding stock in addition to his ideal characteristics. Is this true somehow in their descendants?


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## holland

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> As others have said, this could describe my little boy, a Ginta z Pohranicni Straze grandson. Unfortunately he was abused, starved, neglected, and stunted as a baby/adolescent, so we have dealt with a ton of baggage. But he is a survivor, and I have had him for nearly a year, and he is doing very well. He bonded with me within moments of meeting him the first time, and is with me constantly, without being clingy. He will never compete, but he helps me care for my disabled sister, alerting me to when she needs me, waking me up if she wakes during the night, he took this on by himself, it is his self-appointed job. He is special.


That is special:wub:


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## lbriggs

lawhyno said:


> Line bred 3-3 on both sides for Mambo z Pohranicni Straze. My boy is sharp and shows lots of suspicion and aggression towards strangers that enter is territory too quickly. Not a social butterfly by any means… doesn't even like leaving home so much. He is at the same time aloof to strangers and can care less about them if they don't enter is space. He is intensely loyal and focused on me. Wants to please me at all times. Very loving and protective of the family. This is natural protection. I didn't need to put him into protection sport for him to protect the house and family… it's natural in some Czech dogs. That's what they call the "old style." Other characteristics: full strong bites, extreme food drive, high prey drive, willingness to please, calm for the most part but great on and off switch. Clear headed. Big head. Dark sable. Thick bones. Huge male - 90lb solid. We love him.


Very similar description to our male with the exception that he enjoys going places with my husband.
G Bosko Tru Pracovani


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## cliffson1

@ Nezzz....send me a pm with your phone number and I will call you and give you a ton of info on Tom/Cordon that I have from Tom's breeder.


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## Gunther der Heinz

My 11 month old DDR/Czech with a hint of Slovak is awesome. Very dark black sable. Thick and solid. Very athletic and protective. He is well on his way to becoming my favorite GSD I have ever had.

In his pedigree are Ginta Z PS, Iltis v Der Wildsau, Tom Z, Cordon An Sat, etc.


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## TwoBigEars

My dog Ryker is a Tom grandson. Typically aloof to strangers if they ignore him. When strangers visit he is suspicious at first, but relaxes fairly quickly and tries to bully them into throwing a toy/stick, but doesn't want them to pet him. Has issues with resource guarding and crate aggression, some of which we've been able to work though. Very toy driven, easily over-aroused. Also has good food drive but definitely prefers toys. He loves to work but I consider him a selfish dog, as he does it more for himself rather than for any joy of working together or pleasing me. We don't really have a bond but he does work better for me than my husband, likely just because I work with Ryker more and have more training knowledge (but I'm certainly far from an expert!).

He is my first dog that I've trained entirely on my own, and I'd consider him difficult for a beginner. I know some of his issues are due to my lack of knowledge and poor training, but the more I learn the more I wonder how much of it is also just the way he is and how that may be compounding his issues due to my lack of knowledge. Kind of wish I could get a "do-over" with him as a puppy knowing what I know now. 

Ryker vom Schwarzsturm


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## Stahl

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I looked at the site again and was thinking you wanted a Border patrol dog as a pet, and I was think ing way into the title.lol. Thanks for the clear up


I have a pzs dog line bred off Grim. He's the family dog. He's 2 years and awesome


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