# Pet insurance dilemma



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I always thought that Healthy Paws insurance paid off big time. But today we looked at the last 4 year's records and it turns out that we lost an average of $1000 a year. The office visits are not reimbursed, nor are the preventatives and then there is the deductible. It looks and feels like it is a good deal but the math doesn't look like it. And we even had a few large procedures. Of course they are a business and need to make money. Still not sure if I should pull them out though. But if was enlightening to go through the records.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

It's definitely always a gamble. I knew a few people that canceled it after a few years. 

One of them canceled and their dog bloated a month later. Then just snowballed out of control. After about $70,000 in 3 years they put the dog down. 

And finally an acquaintance of mine... They are definitely giving their insurance company a run for their money. Their lab has no sense of danger and infinite hunger for all things. 

Knowing my luck, if I ever canceled something will happen for sure. It's cool to see the math and I'm looking forward to keeping track of everything as the years go by.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i’m still on the fence.
it’d be for my next dogs.
Keystone has had a few big bills…
i did the math a couple years ago assuming i started insurance when i got him, at that point i would have broken even.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Wrong way to think about it. You pay car insurance and don't expect to break even--when you pay the bill, you never say, "but I didn't have a wreck last year, so why am I paying this?" And you definitely don't want to "win the bet" with an insurance company on a life insurance policy either--and yet we pay for that too. Most of the time you will pay more for your own health insurance premiums in the U.S. too once you include the part your employer pays. The point of insurance is to cover the catastrophic bills -- the kind that would be hard to pay for without insurance -- and you shouldn't expect those every year. 

I lost money every year of one of my dogs' life until his last 4 years. Then we started with the $10,000 bills on multiple occasions. I never had to say "no" to the best care in the world due to cost for him.


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## bchevs (Oct 15, 2020)

When Whiskey had his spinal clot they originally thought it was a slipped disc and thought he would need surgery. They quoted me $13000. We got very lucky and he didn't need surgery but the numbers can be scary. I make sure I've got a large savings account for them at all times. I'd like the security of pet insurance but when I added up the costs of insuring two dogs and two cats it was just too expensive. And I know if I insure one of them it'll be the uninsured one who has the big vet bill...


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## RedactedSource (Jan 14, 2022)

I also did a big research on pet insurance and some rates are just too. Right now we are with Bivvy for $10/month and 50/50 coverage (there are yearly and lifetime caps). I feel like since she is still a puppy it’s worth it, it’s better than nothing and it doesn’t cost an arm and leg. Already made one claim when she got potential blockage and had to stay in the ER over night (no surgery). $1000 was split in 1/2 and they reimbursed it within a week. I know I’m locked in and the rate until March and it will go up because now they advertise $14/month, but it’s still not an overkill. Maybe at some point we will go with a better coverage from someone else but paying $80+/month for 11 week puppy was just crazy to me.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

I don't have insurance on my dogs,but I have a decent rainy day fund that steadily compounds interest every quarter. Think about saving the $80 a month and begin buying one year CDs at 4% + interest and keep rolling them over.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

With pet insurance still being relatively new… I think it’s perfectly normal to be having these thoughts while deciding if it’s a fit for you. Car insurance is required by law, Health insurance also mandatory, Life insurance is optional… 

There were times in my life where even the $10/mo policy mentioned above would have been out of the question for me - I probably shouldn’t have owned dogs during that time but I did so, successfully.

Life experience plays a part…. as someone who has never had a fender bender, it took losing a family member in a multi vehicle crash to drive that point of car and medical insurance home. a close friend losing all of his belongings in a house fire led me to renters insurance. so having 2 GSD live to 13yrs olds and their combined vet bills totaling under $1000…. Keystone was a wake up call when his first visit hit that amount easily. Unfortunately the majority of his ailments all tie back to that original condition that would now be preexisting, so i missed that window for him.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Being superstitious, I assume that the month I cancel the insurance the vet bills will skyrocket.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> Being superstitious, I assume that the month I cancel the insurance the vet bills will skyrocket.


Try getting a quote from ManyPets.









Dog Insurance | Compare Our Pet Policies


Pet insurance designed for your dog with up to £15,000 of lifetime vet fee cover and much more.




manypets.com





I think I remember reading something about a better rate if you have an active account with another company. I'm paying $41.48 for Frankie at 10months old. I have a $250 deductible and 90% coverage. No annual limit.

Oh, don't know what state you're in but they are new to the US so not available in all states. I'm in NM.

Healthy Paws quoted me $60.04 for 80% coverage. Same deductible.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

The reality is it’s they are for profit companies, meaning that the vast majority of people will spend more with them then they get back. It comes down to whether you any time assume the risk or not. Personally I don’t use it. It’s an individual choice and you can probably find personality and situational differences based on that choice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It depends where you live. In an area where living expenses and wages are higher, you pay more because the clinics are more expensive. Another issue is the availability of advanced techniques that makes you feel guilty if you don't go to the very end in keeping the dog alive, which I may not have needed to decide 30 years ago. I have seen many dogs live to very old ages because of the treatments available. I personally will not put them through this, even nowadays.
PS: I checked with ManyPets and the cost is similar as Healthy Paws.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> PS: I checked with ManyPets and the cost is similar as Healthy Paws.


🙁


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## Old Frog (2 mo ago)

I understand. I'm just now investigating insurance for my 6 month old pup. I "sort of" narrowed it down to AKC, Spot, and Pumpkin. The rates are all similar for similar levels of coverage but as Ross Perot said, "the Devil is in the details," which with pet insurance means what's covered vs. what's not. The topline, front page promos all sound good but you don't know for sure until you actually read all the exclusions in a sample contract. And that's where I get stuck. Seems like a whole lot of potential hedging in between the lines. So far too much for me to make a commitment. Maybe I'm just an old paranoid cynic making this more complicated than necessary. I guess I'm going to have to call and ask a representative specific questions but I don't know what those would be.

Any suggestions or insights based upon personal experiences would be appreciated.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Healthy Paws is straight forward, they pay fast and there is no limit. I am happy with them but the costs are adding up. But then
you never know...


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## Old Frog (2 mo ago)

wolfy dog said:


> Healthy Paws is straight forward, they pay fast and they is now limit. I am happy with them but the costs are adding up. But then
> you never know...


I went through the same exercise you did but on a personal level. I had the same health insurance for years and I became accustomed to the premium increases every 5 years which put me in a higher risk category (40, 45, 50, etc.) but after I turned 60 they started raising my premiums every year. After my 62 birthday they raised my premiums to $800/mo. It didn't take a particularly clear crystal ball to realize $1000/mo was right around the corner so I gathered all my medical receipts for the last 3-4 years and called every provider, lab, x-ray, and pharmacy I had used and asked them what the uninsured cash prices for my services were. Turned out without insurance my cash prices averaged $2200/year. Confronted with that reality I opted to drop my coverage and self-insure until I reached 65 and qualified for Medicare. Maybe I was lucky but my health was good at the time and it worked out for me.

BTW, I called numerous insurers and offered to pay $100-$200/mo with a $10,000-$20,000 deductible for catastrophic coverage and nobody would sell it to me. One rep even told me that my premiums were so high in case they had to payout for something catastrophic like a quadruple bi-pass so they were clearly hip to what I was trying to do and wouldn't accept the risk.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

My only regret with pet insurance is not buying a more comprehensive policy. I bought the cheapest policy 8 years ago, when pet insurance was a new 'thing'. I've had so many claims I know some of the staff over the phone, and it's a really big company. One year they tripled the excess on his policy. I reckon they haven't dumped Nitro as we have 5 other policies that we've rarely or never claimed on.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Keep it. I won’t even tell you how much my dog has cost me since we got him. he has had one big thing after another. If you want to know, private messsge me. Insurance isn’t for little things. It’s for catastrophes. For this dog, we lost money by not having insurance. I look at it differently than you do. If I get another young puppy, it will be a normal expense. I would much rather have it and never use it than have my dog go through what mine has faced. I didn’t get it because I’ve never needed it before. None of my previous dogs ever had an emergency illness or surgery. Emergencies drive the bill up. My friend just paid a $14,000 emergency bill last year for her German Shepherd, who died the day after. She has another puppy and got insurance the same day she picked up the dog.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

When my clients call me at renewal time and complain they spent all this money and got nothing out of it. I kindly offer to come over and break a knee cap so they can get something out of it.

Best news ever if you are spending money and are getting nothing out of it. Your pets healthy. Worth every penny

Insurance is not about the little stuff, its about the big things. I never want to be a in a position to think about, do I have 5K for a surgery.


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## CausticCorvidae (Dec 27, 2021)

I've opted to go the "rainy day fund" route. It's just not worth it when it works out to ~$15,000+ in premiums alone over the course of my dog's life and any illness that causes him to get diarrhea would get denied coverage because he had giardia when he was two months old and it'd be considered a pre-existing condition. Plus you need the money on hand to pay for any treatments and who knows if they'll actually reimburse you or try and find a way to deny coverage.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have decided to keep the insurance


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## Kane1111 (5 mo ago)

Look into pets best I’m currently using them I’m paying 80 a month that includes wellness and I have a $500 deductible. I tried spot and got a quote they’re really expensive.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Kane1111 said:


> Look into pets best I’m currently using them I’m paying 80 a month that includes wellness and I have a $500 deductible. I tried spot and got a quote they’re really expensive.


Prices are based on your zip code, age of dog and what state laws are applied to the plans. Then deductible and co insurance %. What may be a good price where you live may be bad for others in different areas.

As far as paying $26 a month @ $312 a year for wellness, that may be a wash not sure. This has $ limits as posted below. Would have to compare it to bills. Not getting a micro chip after year one nor deworming. I guess if you have the teeth cleaned every year you may come out slightly ahead.


*BESTWELLNESS™ - $26.52/MONTH*
Pays up to the following limits, per year, with no deductible:


Spay/Neuter — Teeth Cleaning - $150
Rabies - $15
Flea/Tick Prevention - $65
Heartworm Prevention - $30
Vaccination/Titer - $40
Wellness Exam - $50
Heartworm test or FELV screen - $30
Blood, fecal, parasite exam - $70
Microchip - $40
Urinalysis or ERD - $25
Deworming - $20
Total annual benefits - $535


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Does it cover senior blood panels? Those run around $400 each for a full work up.


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## Kane1111 (5 mo ago)

kr16 said:


> Prices are based on your zip code, age of dog and what state laws are applied to the plans. Then deductible and co insurance %. What may be a good price where you live may be bad for others in different areas.
> 
> As far as paying $26 a month @ $312 a year for wellness, that may be a wash not sure. This has $ limits as posted below. Would have to compare it to bills. Not getting a micro chip after year one nor deworming. I guess if you have the teeth cleaned every year you may come out slightly ahead.
> 
> ...


Yes I agree it’s good for now I was looking for something not to break the bank this is my plan I may change later or cancel I know I wanted something my other dog has mass cell tumors we paid out pocket for surgery we were cancer free for nine months came back I have no insurance with her


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

kr16 said:


> *BESTWELLNESS™ - $26.52/MONTH*
> Pays up to the following limits, per year, with no deductible:
> 
> Spay/Neuter — Teeth Cleaning - $150
> ...


That schedule of benefits does not bode well -- those are WAY too low compared to actual cost. 

Basic exams are now $75 (or more) most places. Routine, vary basic bloodwork is over $100, and a full panel is between $200-$300 where I am. Titering is also over $100. Quality tick prevention like Simparica or Nextguard cost over $20/month. Teeth cleaning was around $500, I think, several years ago. I'm not even in a big city -- the Deep South is supposed to be one of the least expensive parts of the country for vet care. A spay of a big dog will also run about $300 unless you do it at a high-volume, speuter place.

If that schedule of benefits is typical of the way they calculate benefits for other stuff, that's a pretty terrible policy in my opinion, and you're in for some real pain in the pocketbook if something major happens. The key is to make sure that they DO NOT have a schedule of benefits for illnesses and injuries (even if they have one for wellness) -- you want them to calculate your reimbursement based on actual bills, not arbitrary amounts that have no relationship to real costs (particularly in an inflationary cycle).


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> That schedule of benefits does not bode well -- those are WAY too low compared to actual cost.
> 
> Basic exams are now $75 (or more) most places. Routine, vary basic bloodwork is over $100, and a full panel is between $200-$300 where I am. Titering is also over $100. Quality tick prevention like Simparica or Nextguard cost over $20/month. Teeth cleaning was around $500, I think, several years ago. I'm not even in a big city -- the Deep South is supposed to be one of the least expensive parts of the country for vet care. A spay of a big dog will also run about $300 unless you do it at a high-volume, speuter place.
> 
> If that schedule of benefits is typical of the way they calculate benefits for other stuff, that's a pretty terrible policy in my opinion, and you're in for some real pain in the pocketbook if something major happens. The key is to make sure that they DO NOT have a schedule of benefits for illnesses and injuries (even if they have one for wellness) -- you want them to calculate your reimbursement based on actual bills, not arbitrary amounts that have no relationship to real costs (particularly in an inflationary cycle).


My Jasper's last in-house urinalysis was $52.00 and that's in NM.


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## Kane1111 (5 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> That schedule of benefits does not bode well -- those are WAY too low compared to actual cost.
> 
> Basic exams are now $75 (or more) most places. Routine, vary basic bloodwork is over $100, and a full panel is between $200-$300 where I am. Titering is also over $100. Quality tick prevention like Simparica or Nextguard cost over $20/month. Teeth cleaning was around $500, I think, several years ago. I'm not even in a big city -- the Deep South is supposed to be one of the least expensive parts of the country for vet care. A spay of a big dog will also run about $300 unless you do it at a high-volume, speuter place.
> 
> If that schedule of benefits is typical of the way they calculate benefits for other stuff, that's a pretty terrible policy in my opinion, and you're in for some real pain in the pocketbook if something major happens. The key is to make sure that they DO NOT have a schedule of benefits for illnesses and injuries (even if they have one for wellness) -- you want them to calculate your reimbursement based on actual bills, not arbitrary amounts that have no relationship to real costs (particularly in an inflationary cycle).


Thanks for the info I’m new to dog insurance I’ve never had any insurance with any of my dogs this is my first if anyone anything better that I can look into please let me know


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have done some research and the premiums depend on the area you live. They pretty much are all similar.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Embrace used to have a really nice wellness addon. I remember it was $200 annually and they would essentially cover $350 of any wellness stuff. Very good returns. But they stopped that a while ago sadly.


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## kr16 (Apr 30, 2011)

Magwart said:


> That schedule of benefits does not bode well -- those are WAY too low compared to actual cost.
> 
> Basic exams are now $75 (or more) most places. Routine, vary basic bloodwork is over $100, and a full panel is between $200-$300 where I am. Titering is also over $100. Quality tick prevention like Simparica or Nextguard cost over $20/month. Teeth cleaning was around $500, I think, several years ago. I'm not even in a big city -- the Deep South is supposed to be one of the least expensive parts of the country for vet care. A spay of a big dog will also run about $300 unless you do it at a high-volume, speuter place.
> 
> If that schedule of benefits is typical of the way they calculate benefits for other stuff, that's a pretty terrible policy in my opinion, and you're in for some real pain in the pocketbook if something major happens. The key is to make sure that they DO NOT have a schedule of benefits for illnesses and injuries (even if they have one for wellness) -- you want them to calculate your reimbursement based on actual bills, not arbitrary amounts that have no relationship to real costs (particularly in an inflationary cycle).



My exact point, any limited schedule of benefits is rarely good like on Nationwide


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## Old Frog (2 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> That schedule of benefits does not bode well -- those are WAY too low compared to actual cost.
> 
> Basic exams are now $75 (or more) most places. Routine, vary basic bloodwork is over $100, and a full panel is between $200-$300 where I am. Titering is also over $100. Quality tick prevention like Simparica or Nextguard cost over $20/month. Teeth cleaning was around $500, I think, several years ago. I'm not even in a big city -- the Deep South is supposed to be one of the least expensive parts of the country for vet care. A spay of a big dog will also run about $300 unless you do it at a high-volume, speuter place.
> 
> If that schedule of benefits is typical of the way they calculate benefits for other stuff, that's a pretty terrible policy in my opinion, and you're in for some real pain in the pocketbook if something major happens. The key is to make sure that they DO NOT have a schedule of benefits for illnesses and injuries (even if they have one for wellness) -- you want them to calculate your reimbursement based on actual bills, not arbitrary amounts that have no relationship to real costs (particularly in an inflationary cycle).


So who do you have coverage with or recommend if you don't mind my asking? FWIW my puppy just turned 6 months, we live in an apartment so she is only outside about 2 hours a day (other than hanging out on my patio), she's always on a leash when we walk , and has virtually no "direct" contact with other dogs. Under those conditions I'm hesitant to pay for insurance at this time - fingers crossed and knocking on wood every day.


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## lfisher818 (Feb 29, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> I always thought that Healthy Paws insurance paid off big time. But today we looked at the last 4 year's records and it turns out that we lost an average of $1000 a year. The office visits are not reimbursed, nor are the preventatives and then there is the deductible. It looks and feels like it is a good deal but the math doesn't look like it. And we even had a few large procedures. Of course they are a business and need to make money. Still not sure if I should pull them out though. But if was enlightening to go through the records.


It’s there for those catastrophic events that normally may be unaffordable. Baron TPLO surgery was 5k and another 5k the next year almost to the date of the first tear. I pay $90 a month for an 80/20 after 250 deductible . They picked up about 8k of the 10k total, which in money I don’t have laying around.

In addition, my Golden allergy medicines are ridiculously expensive and they pick up that too including her allergy testing.


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## lfisher818 (Feb 29, 2012)

lfisher818 said:


> It’s there for those catastrophic events that normally may be unaffordable. Baron TPLO surgery was 5k and another 5k the next year almost to the date of the first tear. I pay $90 a month for an 80/20 after 250 deductible . They picked up about 8k of the 10k total, which in money I don’t have laying around.
> 
> In addition, my Golden allergy medicines are ridiculously expensive and they pick up that too including her allergy testing.


Another add to my comment. They pay incredibly quick. I have received a direct deposit in my checking two days after I submit my claim.


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## Old Frog (2 mo ago)

Kane1111 said:


> Yes I agree it’s good for now I was looking for something not to break the bank this is my plan I may change later or cancel I know I wanted something my other dog has mass cell tumors we paid out pocket for surgery we were cancer free for nine months came back I have no insurance with her
> View attachment 594749


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## Old Frog (2 mo ago)

Petsbest was not on any of the review list I've looked at so I went to their website after I saw your post. One thing jumped right out at me and that was although most of the insurers' rates are pretty much the same, Petsbest is WAY cheaper for Unlimited coverage. Admittedly I'm an old cynic but that was like a flag for me because it begs the question, "how can they afford to do that when no one else seems able to.."


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## Old Frog (2 mo ago)

Deleted


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Old Frog said:


> I hate to hijack a thread but I would like to go the other way with this. That is to say, who, if anybody, has had an expensively disappointing experience with a specific insurer? All the ones I've looked at seem to offer pretty much the same coverage at the same rates so the big question for me is, "*which, if any, didn't/don't perform in the case of catastrophic illness or accident*?" (Maybe I should ask that question on a new thread?)


PLEASE consider deleting this question and re-posting it on the insurance sticky on this topic -- we have years and years worth of posts about which companies hide behind shady schedules of benefits and/or exclusions. People update it from time to time. There's also a lot of discussion of premium hikes in that thread (and the use of "teaser rates" for the first year). The fine print of many policies has already been dissected by a user here who is an insurance industry professional. Having the 103rd thread asking about insurance experiences just buries the useful content so that it's hard to find in the future -- if these experiences are in the sticky, they'll be findable in the future.

For future reference, it's stickied at the top of the "Basic Care" sub-forum:








Health insurance opinions


My GSD is about 8 months old. I just bought the AKC health insurance, it basically covers, accidents, and sickness. My yearly deductable is 125.00 then I am only responsible for 20% after than. I am paying 36.oo a month. Personally I think I got a pretty good deal. Thoughts?




www.germanshepherds.com


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

Insurance companies make huge sums of money simply because they always charge more than what they pay out. I live in Florida where homeowner's and auto insurance rates are very high and unfortunately they must both be purchased by law. I have added all the money I have paid on both policies and compared it to what I have received after paying deductables and the insurance companies have literally robbed me of tens of thousands of dollars. 

I believe that for the regular dog owner instead of buying dog insurance it is much better to be self insured. Instead of paying premiums for a policy you deposit an affordable monthly sum in the account starting when the dog is a puppy. Just like your insurance company, odds are heavily in your favor that in a few years there will be enough in the account to cover most high cost emergency medical expenses if they are needed. If you continue depositing throughout the life of your dog chances are that in the end there will be a positive balance left in your account that will belong to you and not to the insurance company. 

It is a gamble but if it pays off for insurance companies why shouldn't the same odds apply to us?


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## Old Frog (2 mo ago)

CEMC said:


> Insurance companies make huge sums of money simply because they always charge more than what they pay out. I live in Florida where homeowner's and auto insurance rates are very high and unfortunately they must both be purchased by law. I have added all the money I have paid on both policies and compared it to what I have received after paying deductables and the insurance companies have literally robbed me of tens of thousands of dollars.
> 
> I believe that for the regular dog owner instead of buying dog insurance it is much better to be self insured. Instead of paying premiums for a policy you deposit an affordable monthly sum in the account starting when the dog is a puppy. Just like your insurance company, odds are heavily in your favor that in a few years there will be enough in the account to cover most high cost emergency medical expenses if they are needed. If you continue depositing throughout the life of your dog chances are that in the end there will be a positive balance left in your account that will belong to you and not to the insurance company.
> 
> It is a gamble but if it pays off for insurance companies why shouldn't the same odds apply to us?


I generally agree with this and with any other dog I probably would self insure but with a GSD I'm too afraid of hip dysplasia and joint problems to ignore it.


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## kurtacornerss (5 d ago)

wolfy dog said:


> I always thought that Healthy Paws insurance paid off big time. But today we looked at the last 4 year's records and it turns out that we lost an average  of $1000 a year. The office visits are not reimbursed, nor are the preventatives and then there is the deductible. It looks and feels like it is a good deal but the math doesn't look like it. And we even had a few large procedures. Of course they are a business and need to make money. Still not sure if I should pull them out though. But if was enlightening to go through the records.


I think It's always a good idea to review your insurance policy and assess whether it's meeting your needs and providing value. It's normal for insurance policies to have deductibles and exclusions, and it's important to understand what is and isn't covered under your policy. but i think you should keep this policy for now


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