# GSD Puppies!!



## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

So, it turns out that I'll be getting a WL GSD pup sooner than I thought (In 3 weeks!), and I finally got pictures of the litter! They are 3 weeks old, and the breeder is letting me take one home at 6 weeks old (I know the average is 8 weeks, but the breeder knows what she's doing). They are so cute, and they're going to grow up to be beauties!
*All pictures are of the puppies at 3 weeks old.*

Here they are with the dam: 



























Beautiful sables


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Just to let you know, 8 weeks is not the average...it is the law in most states. Letting puppies go earlier than that leads to socialization issues and other problems. But I'll let the experts chime in with all the side effects...

I would not get a puppy from this breeder if they are doing that. I don't know a single breeder on this page that would do that, unless the dam died or some other disaster.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Um, if the breeder is letting puppies go at 6 weeks of age, she does NOT know what she is doing, and may in fact be doing something illegal. Is this really what you want? Most "breeders" who give up their puppies at 6 weeks are simply trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible, to maximize their profit. Why feed and care for a litter for two extra weeks, when you can get rid of them at full price?

I'd seriously re-think this. Where did you find this breeder? ... let me guess... classified ad, cragislist, or painted cardboard sign?


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I just looked it up:

Missouri Animal Care Facility Rules Governing Licensing, Fees, Reports, Record Keeping, Veterinary Care, Identification and Holding Period

It is ILLEGAL in the state of Missouri for anyone, licensed breeder or not, to sell puppies under the age of 8 weeks.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Please, please don't get this pup! 6 weeks is too early. The pup will miss some crucial time with the litter and mom. My breeder isn't even promising 8 weeks. It's when he's ready. As it should be. Most states have laws against this for good reason.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Here is an easy table:

Age to Sell Puppy Table


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I can't see the photos, for some reason. Anyone else?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I can't see them either.. it's not just you.


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## GsdLoverr729 (Jun 20, 2010)

I can't see them either.

OP- I agree with everyone else that this breeder probably isn't the best person to buy from. 
BUT I will say, it doesn't always make for a messed up dog. I got Koda when she was 6 weeks old and she has never been any more difficult than she would have been if I got her at 8 weeks.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Just to let you know, 8 weeks is not the average...it is the law in most states. Letting puppies go earlier than that leads to socialization issues and other problems. But I'll let the experts chime in with all the side effects...
> 
> I would not get a puppy from this breeder if they are doing that. I don't know a single breeder on this page that would do that, unless the dam died or some other disaster.


 Holy cow!  
Really?! I thought that this was too young, but I'm no breeder, I thought she would know what's best. Apparently not?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Um, if the breeder is letting puppies go at 6 weeks of age, she does NOT know what she is doing, and may in fact be doing something illegal. Is this really what you want? Most "breeders" who give up their puppies at 6 weeks are simply trying to get rid of them as quickly as possible, to maximize their profit. Why feed and care for a litter for two extra weeks, when you can get rid of them at full price?
> 
> I'd seriously re-think this. Where did you find this breeder? ... let me guess... classified ad, cragislist, or painted cardboard sign?


 Actually no, I was told by my Schutzhund club that these would be puppies to check out. The trainer's brother is good friends with her.
But is this really the ONLY explaination for this? That she is irresponsible and doesn't know what she's doing?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I just looked it up:
> 
> Missouri Animal Care Facility Rules Governing Licensing, Fees, Reports, Record Keeping, Veterinary Care, Identification and Holding Period
> 
> It is ILLEGAL in the state of Missouri for anyone, licensed breeder or not, to sell puppies under the age of 8 weeks.


 Wow.
Should I just tell her that she needs to hold the puppies for 2 more weeks? 
I don't know how she could have just missed seeing/knowing about this law.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

GsdLoverr729 said:


> I can't see them either.
> 
> OP- I agree with everyone else that this breeder probably isn't the best person to buy from.
> BUT I will say, it doesn't always make for a messed up dog. I got Koda when she was 6 weeks old and she has never been any more difficult than she would have been if I got her at 8 weeks.


 Well if it's illegal, I sure don't want to break any laws by buying an under-aged puppy! Or is it just the breeder that would be breaking the law?
Ugh, this is dissapointing, but I want to look at every side of this. Unless their is really only one side to look from.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x: good find. Thanks for posting that.

HarleyTheGSD: Just because someone is a breeder does NOT make them an authority on dogs. Unfortunately, there are lots of breeders out there that may *seem* like they are reputable, but as you start digging beneath the surface, all sorts of secrets, questionable activities and shortcuts start spilling out. Always ask questions, dissect them thoroughly and DO NOT TAKE ANYONE'S WORD. Research and find out for yourself. Follow up on every claim that a breeder makes. People are NOT trustworthy when they are trying to make a sale. Do your homework and make sure you know for sure before you buy. 

You are a novice to GSDs, correct? I cannot name ONE breeder I know that would sell you a puppy under 8 weeks. *Maybe* if you were a breeder yourself with years of experience and if they knew you well....then *maybe* under some extenuating circumstances. But they would _never_ let a puppy under 8 weeks go to someone with your experience and position. This is not a criticism of you. We all start somewhere. But I find it very hard to understand why a breeder would give a 6 week old puppy to a novice. Very strange and questionable. 

Who is this breeder?


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

If she didn't know that removing the pups before 8 weeks was illegal and *could* harm the pups in the future, what else did she not know?

Could be a "simple" mistake and her breeding practice is otherwise immaculate. But I would never assume....see if both parents are OFAd and temperament tested. I think they are trained in Schutz. from reading your earlier post? Are they titled?

I would look elsewhere.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)




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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> x0emiroxy0x: good find. Thanks for posting that.
> 
> HarleyTheGSD: Just because someone is a breeder does NOT make them an authority on dogs. Unfortunately, there are lots of breeders out there that may *seem* like they are reputable, but as you start digging beneath the surface, all sorts of secrets, questionable activities and shortcuts start spilling out. Always ask questions, dissect them thoroughly and DO NOT TAKE ANYONE'S WORD. Research and find out for yourself. Follow up on every claim that a breeder makes. People are NOT trustworthy when they are trying to make a sale. Do your homework and make sure you know for sure before you buy.
> 
> ...


 Could this be the only answer? 
It's true, I am no expert. I know more than some, less than others.
I think she is letting one go at 6 weeks, because she knows the people I train with VERY well, but this is still an issue, is it not? Does it even matter that I have an experienced mentor?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> If she didn't know that removing the pups before 8 weeks was illegal and *could* harm the pups in the future, what else did she not know?
> 
> Could be a "simple" mistake and her breeding practice is otherwise immaculate. But I would never assume....see if both parents are OFAd and temperament tested. I think they are trained in Schutz. from reading your earlier post? Are they titled?
> 
> I would look elsewhere.


 They are, but don't have titles. There ARE titles in the family. 
Can there be some other explaination?


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

It's still against the law. She also probably wouldn't be able to evaluate the pups at 6 weeks. I would look for another breeder. JMO


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Who is the breeder, and what is the pedigree of these pups? Maybe that will help shed some light on the situation, if anyone here knows the breeder or the dogs in question.

So this is someone recommended by your SchH club? Is this breeder a member, does she train with them? If I'm understanding correctly, the parents of these puppies are not titled. That's not necessarily a red flag, but if this person is training with the SchH club, I'd be interested to know why she didn't wait to breed until after the parents were titled.

What is the OFA status of the parents?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Could this be the only answer?
> It's true, I am no expert. I know more than some, less than others.
> I think she is letting one go at 6 weeks, because she knows the people I train with VERY well, but this is still an issue, is it not? Does it even matter that I have an experienced mentor?


In my eyes, it does not matter. Is your mentor living in your house with you? Is your mentor going to mimic the littermates and mom? 
No. You go to training a couple times a week and work under your mentor. The dog lives and grows up with you. Doesn't Harley have some nerve issues? Aggression? How do you plan on managing the two? What do you think you will gain with a 6 week old pup? What makes a 6 week old better than the recommended 8? Give yourself the benefit of the doubt and don't hinder yourself with unnecessary complications. What's the big deal to wait 2 weeks? I very much question this "breeder". Again, who is this and what is the litter pedigree? 

2 weeks might not seem like a huge deal, but pups benefit greatly from this time with their littermates. If it was ok to let them go at 6 weeks, why don't more breeders do that? They don't because there is a REASON why you keep them till 8 weeks. If it was ok to let them go at 6, breeders would let them go at 6. You see my reasoning? It takes energy, time, money and headache to raise pups..especially as they get older and more rambunctious. Hence the reason why many questionable breeders sell their pups before 8 weeks. 

I have several breeders with over a century of experience advising me, but unless the puppy needed emergency round the clock care, they wouldn't dream of giving me a 6 week old pup. I wouldn't take one at 6 weeks either.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I think she is letting one go at 6 weeks, because she knows the people I train with VERY well, but this is still an issue, is it not? Does it even matter that I have an experienced mentor?


The only time I would consider it okay to take a puppy away from its litter at 6 weeks, is if the buyer is VERY experienced raising puppies and the breeder and buyer know each other well. I don't think it counts that you have a mentor, unless the mentor lives with you.

What does your mentor have to say about getting a pup at 6 weeks of age?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> In my eyes, it does not matter. Is your mentor living in your house with you? Is your mentor going to mimic the littermates and mom?
> No. You go to training a couple times a week and work under your mentor. The dog lives and grows up with you. Doesn't Harley have some nerve issues? Aggression? How do you plan on managing the two? What do you think you will gain with a 6 week old pup? What makes a 6 week old better than the recommended 8? Give yourself the benefit of the doubt and don't hinder yourself with unnecessary complications. What's the big deal to wait 2 weeks? I very much question this "breeder". Again, who is this and what is the litter pedigree?
> 
> 2 weeks might not seem like a huge deal, but pups benefit greatly from this time with their littermates. If it was ok to let them go at 6 weeks, why don't more breeders do that? They don't because there is a REASON why you keep them till 8 weeks. If it was ok to let them go at 6, breeders would let them go at 6. You see my reasoning? It takes energy, time, money and headache to raise pups..especially as they get older and more rambunctious. Hence the reason why many questionable breeders sell their pups before 8 weeks.
> ...


 I don't know the breeder or the pedigree (I know, EEEEK! Red flag!!!), but I will meet the breeder and ask about the pedigree nect week. And yes, Harley is Fear Aggressive. I will tell the breeder that I'd like her to hold them till they are 8 weeks. I don't want any unnecessary complications or temperament issues, especially since I'm going to be doing Schutzhund.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I don't know the breeder or the pedigree


This is just silly. I think you know better. You committed to buying a puppy without any info about the seller or the dam/sire. Have you done all this planning based on what the people at your club have said? 

There is more than one club out there that will try to sell you their club dog puppies. Investigate and find out for YOURSELF. Do not go on someone else's word. Find out for yourself. 

Or at least...find out the breeder's kennel name! This is a 10-15 year commitment...not one to be rushed!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I wanted to add also, that 20-30 years ago it was common to sell puppies at the age of 6 weeks. So perhaps this breeder is still thinking old-school, if she's been doing it a long time.

Going home two weeks early is not going to make or break a dog. If properly raised, trained, and socialized by an experienced and knowledgable handler, you probably would not be able to tell the difference between a pup acquired at 6 weeks or 8 weeks... but you really want to tip the scales in your favor whenever possible. Those extra two weeks are important for the pups to socialize with each other and mom--most importantly, they learn bite inhibition from playing with each other, and this is the age where their mother will start handing out some discipline where it's needed. The pup learns limits and boundaries, rules to live by. An experienced person can also teach a pup all this, but it is much better done by the canine family unit.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> This is just silly. I think you know better. You committed to buying a puppy without any info about the seller or the dam/sire. Have you done all this planning based on what the people at your club have said?
> 
> There is more than one club out there that will try to sell you their club dog puppies. Investigate and find out for YOURSELF. Do not go on someone else's word. Find out for yourself.
> 
> Or at least...find out the breeder's kennel name! This is a 10-15 year commitment...not one to be rushed!


 Sorry, I realize this is very irresponsible and stupid of me. I SHOULD know better. I need to ask more questions, and that's what I'll do right now!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I wanted to add also, that 20-30 years ago it was common to sell puppies at the age of 6 weeks. So perhaps this breeder is still thinking old-school, if she's been doing it a long time.
> 
> Going home two weeks early is not going to make or break a dog. If properly raised, trained, and socialized by an experienced and knowledgable handler, you probably would not be able to tell the difference between a pup acquired at 6 weeks or 8 weeks... but you really want to tip the scales in your favor whenever possible. Those extra two weeks are important for the pups to socialize with each other and mom--most importantly, they learn bite inhibition from playing with each other, and this is the age where their mother will start handing out some discipline where it's needed. The pup learns limits and boundaries, rules to live by. An experienced person can also teach a pup all this, but it is much better done by the canine family unit.


 Well it's apparently against the law now. I was reading some other posts from 2008-2009, and they aren't as worried in those threads. So is it REALLY soooooo terrible that I might take a puppy 2 weeks early? From what everybody here is saying, yes. Does it mean the puppy will be doomed?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> This is just silly. I think you know better. You committed to buying a puppy without any info about the seller or the dam/sire.


I agree--how can you choose a breeder or pup sight unseen, pedigree unknown? I thought you'd been on these forums long enough to know better. Would you please email this breeder and find out her name, kennel name, and the pedigree in question? Does she have a website? All very valid things to ask.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Well it's apparently against the law now. I was reading some other posts from 2008-2009, and they aren't as worried in those threads. So is it REALLY soooooo terrible that I might take a puppy 2 weeks early? From what everybody here is saying, yes. Does it mean the puppy will be doomed?


You're not paying attention. The point is, what kind of breeder would sell her puppies at 6 weeks of age, especially now that it's illegal? What other things is she doing that might be illegal or unethical? You don't even know the pedigree of these dogs, for cryin' out loud! I realize that your SchH club recommended her, but use some of your own common sense here--if the SchH club told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?

Maybe it's all just a misunderstanding, and the breeder is just fine, but the only thing we know is that she sells 6 week old puppies to the general public, and that's not a good first impression.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I agree--how can you choose a breeder or pup sight unseen, pedigree unknown? I thought you'd been on these forums long enough to know better. Would you please email this breeder and find out her name, kennel name, and the pedigree in question? Does she have a website? All very valid things to ask.


 I know, this is my mistake, I should know better. I will ask these questions right away. I need to be sure I'm doing the best thing for the puppy and myself.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Well it's apparently against the law now. I was reading some other posts from 2008-2009, and they aren't as worried in those threads. So is it REALLY soooooo terrible that I might take a puppy 2 weeks early? From what everybody here is saying, yes. Does it mean the puppy will be doomed?


It is not the 6 weeks or 8 weeks that is the issue. The problem is the breeder that thinks this type of practice is ok. A breeder that thinks it's fine to let a 6 week old go to a novice. A breeder that doesn't know the laws of her state regarding live animal sales. A breeder that has never spoken to you and yet allowing you to take her 6 week old pup without having a clue about you. A breeder that doesn't have titled dogs, breeding dogs that you don't know the name of, hip/elbow certs that you don't know about.....THAT is a bigger deal than the 6 weeks or 8 weeks. 

I find it mind blowing that you committed to a puppy that you really have zero clue about. All your information is hearsay and second hand. THAT is the problem. You have been on here long enough. You see all the aggression, fear, health issues that GSDs are prone to have. It is crucial that you find all this out....BEFORE purchasing the puppy. Because let me just warn you....people aren't so nice and helpful AFTER money has changed hands! Funny how that works


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I need to be sure I'm doing the best thing for the puppy and myself.


Have you already paid for and committed to this puppy? You give an impression that it is already set in stone. It's never too late to walk away. I think I remember you saying that you will get this puppy on a "discount", a term that I would raise my eyebrows about if I were looking for a pup.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> It is not the 6 weeks or 8 weeks that is the issue. The problem is the breeder that thinks this type of practice is ok. A breeder that thinks it's fine to let a 6 week old go to a novice. A breeder that doesn't know the laws of her state regarding live animal sales. A breeder that has never spoken to you and yet allowing you to take her 6 week old pup without having a clue about you. A breeder that doesn't have titled dogs, breeding dogs that you don't know the name of, hip/elbow certs that you don't know about.....THAT is a bigger deal than the 6 weeks or 8 weeks.
> 
> I find it mind blowing that you committed to a puppy that you really have zero clue about. All your information is hearsay and second hand. THAT is the problem. You have been on here long enough. You see all the aggression, fear, health issues that GSDs are prone to have. It is crucial that you find all this out....BEFORE purchasing the puppy. Because let me just warn you....people aren't so nice and helpful AFTER money has changed hands! Funny how that works


 I understand. I will find more information, if something else goes terribly wrong, I simply won't purchase one of these pups.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Why are they in some parking lot at that age?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> Have you already paid for and committed to this puppy? You give an impression that it is already set in stone. It's never too late to walk away. I think I remember you saying that you will get this puppy on a "discount", a term that I would raise my eyebrows about if I were looking for a pup.


 The absolute truth is that there is a POSSIBILITY that I'll be getting one of these pups. I posted that on an earlier thread. It's not 100% yet. I have been very excited, but I keep telling myself that I might not get one of these pups. 
Yes, I know this is something to keep in mind. If I get one of these pups and something goes wrong, I know it's completely my fault. I need to keep an open mind about this. BUT I still might get one. I just have to find out more information.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I have been very excited, but I keep telling myself that I might not get one of these pups.
> 
> If I get one of these pups and something goes wrong, I know it's completely my fault. I need to keep an open mind about this. BUT I still might get one.


I think you are letting your excitement get the better of you. Slow down, relax and think about this logically. The urge to get a puppy is very understandable. They are cute, fluffly and sweet. You start forming attachments and relationships with the pups before you ever even see them. Believe me, I have seen all of this and experienced it myself. 

But please learn from my mistakes.... just because someone else recommends a breeder, that does not make the pups right for you! You need to look at this situation with a clear and probing mind. If something goes wrong, it isn't your fault that an issue arose. It could be the breeding dogs, genetics, envirnoment, etc. But it WILL be on your head if you go ahead blindly without asking the proper questions. 

Don't let your excitement and anticipation go to your head. These are not just empty words to scare you. I am speaking from heartache and pain here....you will never recover from a devastating setback with your dog. It's an incredible sense of loss, pain and disappointment. Why put yourself through that? Do your very best to investigate this breeder and try not to let your puppy fever trump good judgment.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I think you are letting your excitement get the better of you. Slow down, relax and think about this logically. The urge to get a puppy is very understandable. They are cute, fluffly and sweet. You start forming attachments and relationships with the pups before you ever even see them. Believe me, I have seen all of this and experienced it myself.
> 
> But please learn from my mistakes.... just because someone else recommends a breeder, that does not make the pups right for you! You need to look at this situation with a clear and probing mind. If something goes wrong, it isn't your fault that an issue arose. It could be the breeding dogs, genetics, envirnoment, etc. But it WILL be on your head if you go ahead blindly without asking the proper questions.
> 
> Don't let your excitement and anticipation go to your head. These are not just empty words to scare you. I am speaking from heartache and pain here....you will never recover from a devastating setback with your dog. It's an incredible sense of loss, pain and disappointment. Why put yourself through that? Do your very best to investigate this breeder and try not to let your puppy fever trump good judgment.


 I understand completely. I need to look at the facts. I do not want to go through with that, I'm sorry that you or anybody else had to. I will get the answers I need, and will tell the breeder to hold the pups for 2 extra weeks.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Brittany, I know you said in another post that these puppies were very very reasonably priced and that it was a good deal. THAT is not a reason to get one of these puppies.

The price doesn't bother me, it is what it is, however, I agree with the others, puppies at 6 weeks going to their homes is NOT a good thing, 

You also said you had a trainer friend? I think, that was going to pick a schutzhund prospect for you out of this litter, thats what you wanted to do? 

There is no way in heck, that ANYONE is going to be able to tell you that a 6 week old puppy is a good schutzhund prospect. 

You have been on this board for enough time to know , I would hope, what a responsible breeder is. There's certainly enough info here on this forum. 

Right now, you should have the names of sire/dam and know the pedigree of these dogs. You don't 

You said these puppies are a "good deal", BIG RED FLAG, selling them at 6 weeks of age and Illegal as some are posting (I don't know missouri law), you don't know if the sire/dam have been health tested. 

Why would you even want to get a puppy from someone you really have no information about, you know nothing about the parents, and if you DO get this puppy at 6 weeks because it's a "good deal", yes it will be your fault, but why would you want to go thru that? Why wouldn't you want a nice dog from a good breeder who does things right?? I dont get it. 

I honestly don't mean to be harsh, or sound like I'm beating you up, I just don't 'get' why anyone wouldn't save up their pennies, go with a responsible breeder and get the dog of their dreams vs this kind of set up?

If I were you, I would be calling the "breeder" ask for the health testing information, a copy of the pedigree and WHY she/he is letting them go at 6 weeks of age when it's illegal in Missouri.

Also telling her to hold YOUR puppie 2 extra weeks isn't much help with socializing/learning doggie skills if she only keeps the one you want and not the entire/majority of the litter. So what if she keeps yours, what about the rest of them that are being sold at 6 weeks.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Brittany, I know you said in another post that these puppies were very very reasonably priced and that it was a good deal. THAT is not a reason to get one of these puppies.
> 
> The price doesn't bother me, it is what it is, however, I agree with the others, puppies at 6 weeks going to their homes is NOT a good thing,
> 
> ...


 No, you are not being harsh, you are being honest. I do know what makes a breeder good and reliable, I just didn't want to see the bad things about this litter, becaue I was too excited. WRONG and IRRESPONSIBLE of me, I get it. If I get one of these puppies, I will need to know more about the breeder and the parents of the puppies. I can't promise that I won't be getting a puppy from this litter though. (No, she is keeping the others till they are 8 weeks.)


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Thank you so much, everyone that posted. I know I have to think rationally about this, and need to ask the right questions. I will do the right thing, and I will have this issue figured out. I will make sure I know what I am getting into.
I sure feel like an idiot (which I should), but I'm very glad everybody made me understand that I must be resonsible about this.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

if something else goes terribly wrong -- what !!!! 

nothing should be wrong at the beginning -- 

"but the breeder knows what she's doing" I would challenge that ! 
he/she is tossing out a dog at the point at which the greatest demands will be put on her . Up to 5 - 6 weeks it is more or less providing necessities - after that , hey, socializing, playing, taking out doors, feeding more, cleaning up more, evaluating . Makes it easier for her.

picking up on subtleties -- I don't even like the picture of the puppies that she sent to you. They are just put on the ground as a blob of puppies. There isn't anything that is individual in presentation or caring . Just a shot from over head , not caring about them as individuals . 
"They are so cute, and they're going to grow up to be beauties" this is what they are counting on , your puppy fever - looks is only part and they may or not be beauties . The important thing is the temperament which will determine the nature of your relationship for the next , hopefully , 10 years plus. 

You don't know a thing about them. That should have been question number one. Why is one of these suitable for you. Did she ask anything about you , what you wanted , what your experience has been. 
Did she tell you why she did this combination, what she expects to get out of it, guarantees, after sales support, interest ?

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## m1953 (May 7, 2012)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Well if it's illegal, I sure don't want to break any laws by buying an under-aged puppy! Or is it just the breeder that would be breaking the law?
> Ugh, this is dissapointing, but I want to look at every side of this. Unless their is really only one side to look from.


You wouldnt be breaking the law, the breeder is breaking the law by selling an underage pup to you. 
As easy as it is to fall in love with a pup instantly, there are plenty of good breeders out there who have nothing but their pups and your best interest in mind.. Find another breeder.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I've seen so many posters on this forum who ask an opinion about a litter , and the forum as a collective voice will advise against yet. In the end the person will surprise us (not!) with saying they bought the pup , almost in a mocking I-knew-better way . Then they disappear, never to be heard from again because I bet you anything the things we tried to tell them , warn them against, did come to be , and they were too embarassed.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

carmspack said:


> You don't know a thing about them. That should have been question number one. Why is one of these suitable for you. Did she ask anything about you , what you wanted , what your experience has been.
> Did she tell you why she did this combination, what she expects to get out of it, guarantees, after sales support, interest ?


OP has never even spoken to the breeder, doesn't know the breeder or kennel name and doesn't know who the sire/dam are. She has chosen this litter based on recommendations from her club. 

:nono:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I don't even like the picture of the puppies that she sent to you. They are just put on the ground as a blob of puppies. There isn't anything that is individual in presentation or caring .
> CARMSPACK.com


I was pretty startled to see them pictured like that out in a parking space somewhere...what the heck?

And I have another question: based on what you say about your situation and dog (quoted below) , how are you planning to include a puppy?

" Scared German Shepherd
I have a 2 year old German Shepherd named Harley that is terrified of people. I have had him since he was 4 months old and he was much worse then. I think his behavior is due to lack of socialization within the 4 months the breeder has had him. He has always been scared of people, though he has shown tremendous improvement in the last year. He used to hide in his kennel when we had guests over, and he wouldn't come out at all the whole time (he would show no sign of aggression either). Now, he doesn't go in his kennel at all and he barks and growls at the visitors from a distance. He seems intimidating at first, then people realize he's "all bark and no bite." He has shown protective intincts a couple times when a male friend of mine was being rough with me, and Harley bit him (this happened on 2 occations, neither time did he break any skin). The biggest problem I have though, is walking him. He is perfect until we run into people, then he pulls me. And if I stop, he makes a horrible screaming noise. This only happens on his "bad days", but I would like for him to be more confdent around strangers. (He has done much better recently). 
What should I do to help him even more? I already take him to Petsmart when we get dog food, and I walk him around people. I do not have much money, so a professional Trainer is out of the question. 
Please help!"


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## Loneforce (Feb 12, 2012)

*No, you are not being harsh, you are being honest. I do know what makes a breeder good and reliable, I just didn't want to see the bad things about this litter, becaue I was too excited. WRONG and IRRESPONSIBLE of me, I get it. If I get one of these puppies, I will need to know more about the breeder and the parents of the puppies. I can't promise that I won't be getting a puppy from this litter though. (No, she is keeping the others till they are 8 weeks.)* 
__________________
Im kinda confused about this ^^^^^ Why would this breeder keep the other puppies for 8 weeks, and let yours go at 6 weeks? Something is very wrong there. If they are doing this because of your friend, tell them no thanks I will wait the 8 weeks for my pup.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oy and double oy --- as a breeder , I , would never sell or promise a pup to someone I did not speak to at length , get to know what they want to make the best match. For all the breeder in this thread knows the OP might want to add them to a puppy mill, make fur hats out of them (extreme) but that is how little the breeder knows or CARES .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

first post "So, it turns out that I'll be getting a WL GSD pup sooner than I thought (In 3 weeks!), and I finally got pictures of the litter! They are 3 weeks old, and the breeder is letting me take one home at 6 weeks old (I know the average is 8 weeks, but the breeder knows what she's doing). They are so cute, and they're going to grow up to be beauties!
*All pictures are of the puppies at 3 weeks old.*"

never is the word might mentioned . Seemed like a done deed, pup on doorstep three weeks from now.

personally I wonder if getting a second dog at this moment with the issues you have with your current dog is a good idea.
From the standpoint that you will have your hands full even more than you do now, and that they young dog may copy behaviour -- especially a young dog !!

This is survival measures. If the mother of the dogs is shy and someone approaches and she bolts -- all the pups will copy her behaviour . That is why the temperament of the female is so important . Pups are impressionable. If you get this pup at this age, while it is still in the "imprint" (technically it is not but that is the common terminology) phase then you will have two dogs the same. 

think before you act


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

carmspack said:


> if something else goes terribly wrong -- what !!!!
> 
> nothing should be wrong at the beginning --
> 
> ...


 There shouldn't, but there are always possibilities. 
We have already been over this, I know what I need to do, and I know I have been irresponsible. Sorry, somebody already beat you to the lecture. :blush:


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

carmspack said:


> first post "So, it turns out that I'll be getting a WL GSD pup sooner than I thought (In 3 weeks!), and I finally got pictures of the litter! They are 3 weeks old, and the breeder is letting me take one home at 6 weeks old (I know the average is 8 weeks, but the breeder knows what she's doing). They are so cute, and they're going to grow up to be beauties!
> *All pictures are of the puppies at 3 weeks old.*"
> 
> never is the word might mentioned . Seemed like a done deed, pup on doorstep three weeks from now.
> ...


 Okay, I did not add any words explaining that I MIGHT be getting one. My fault. But I *MIGHT* or I *MIGHT NOT*. 
And with Harley my FA dog, he should not be a concern. I already posted long ago asking if having a FA dog and a young puppy would be a good idea, and they replied saying that it if the puppy has an outgoing, friendly temperament, it doesn't matter. (Look at my earlier posts to see the whole thing.)
And, I did not act yet. So now I can say that I will think before I actually act.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

carmspack said:


> I've seen so many posters on this forum who ask an opinion about a litter , and the forum as a collective voice will advise against yet. In the end the person will surprise us (not!) with saying they bought the pup , almost in a mocking I-knew-better way . Then they disappear, never to be heard from again because I bet you anything the things we tried to tell them , warn them against, did come to be , and they were too embarassed.


 Now that I have all the warnings from the posters, I know that there are definately things to consider, and things I need to make sure I find out. If I do get one of these pups, it's my decision, I'll be the one living with him and training him. If it turns out to be a huge mistake, everybody can point and laugh at me saying "I told you so". That's fine. And I'll know better, I'll learn from the stupid mistake. I would be embarrassed. But not enough to just leave the forum. I came here to learn. And that's what I'm doing right now.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> And I have another question: based on what you say about your situation and dog (quoted below) , how are you planning to include a puppy?
> 
> " Scared German Shepherd
> I have a 2 year old German Shepherd named Harley that is terrified of people. I have had him since he was 4 months old and he was much worse then. I think his behavior is due to lack of socialization within the 4 months the breeder has had him. He has always been scared of people, though he has shown tremendous improvement in the last year. He used to hide in his kennel when we had guests over, and he wouldn't come out at all the whole time (he would show no sign of aggression either). Now, he doesn't go in his kennel at all and he barks and growls at the visitors from a distance. He seems intimidating at first, then people realize he's "all bark and no bite." He has shown protective intincts a couple times when a male friend of mine was being rough with me, and Harley bit him (this happened on 2 occations, neither time did he break any skin). The biggest problem I have though, is walking him. He is perfect until we run into people, then he pulls me. And if I stop, he makes a horrible screaming noise. This only happens on his "bad days", but I would like for him to be more confdent around strangers. (He has done much better recently).
> ...


I've already posted this on another thread. Somebody told me that if the puppy has a good temperament, it shouldn't matter that Harley is FA. Look at my previous threads and see the whole discussion.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

all puppies are cute, I really hope you mean what you say and will use your HEAD and not your heart. 

Puppies will pick up the good as well as the bad from existing dogs in a household, not a 'given', but it happens more frequently than not. 

If it's the 'price' aspect, think what another few hundred bucks would get you vs a lifetime of possible problems.

Granted I don't know who or what the pedigree of these puppies are, but you don't either and until you do, think long and hard

You deserve to have the puppy of your dreams, why settle for anything less?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

carmspack said:


> oy and double oy --- as a breeder , I , would never sell or promise a pup to someone I did not speak to at length , get to know what they want to make the best match. For all the breeder in this thread knows the OP might want to add them to a puppy mill, make fur hats out of them (extreme) but that is how little the breeder knows or CARES .


 I know what you are saying. It's very irresponsible of the breeder to sell her pup to someone she knows nothing about. And it's irresponsible of me that I put all of the red flags aside.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

no one will laugh or point fingers if things go wrong, your right it is your decision, your choice, but why would you even want things to go wrong? No one can predict the future, I just think you should really slow down and stop thinking about what a "great deal" they are.

How do you know Harley won't try and actually kill a puppy? Has he ever been around a puppy before?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

While I agree with everyone about the inadvisability of getting a 6 week old pup, from unknown pedigree/breeder...there is one aspect here that is not being considered..

The OP wants to train a pup in sport - the club she has chosen to become part of apparently has a connection to this litter - and she has been advised (pressured??) to take one of this litter to train in the group....Dynamics of many groups are such that in order to fit in, be accepted, you get your dog from within the club...look over trial results over a period of time....you will see that many many clubs are filled with dogs with the same kennel name...that the majority of the people in the club have the same breeder's dogs....I ***suspect*** that this may be a huge factor in her decision to get this puppy - and that she will continue to be told that the board's advice is useless, and that she should get one of these pups.....it is hard to ignore a cute puppy and especially when you are getting direction in person to get the puppy...

Hopefully, it is a well bred litter and the puppy will be a good one!

Lee


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> all puppies are cute, I really hope you mean what you say and will use your HEAD and not your heart.
> 
> Puppies will pick up the good as well as the bad from existing dogs in a household, not a 'given', but it happens more frequently than not.
> 
> ...


 I will find out much more about this litter before I make any decisions. 
So, my puppy will become fearful of people if he is around Harley? I won't be taking the dogs out for walks/play together, only seperately. This doesn't matter?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> no one will laugh or point fingers if things go wrong, your right it is your decision, your choice, but why would you even want things to go wrong? No one can predict the future, I just think you should really slow down and stop thinking about what a "great deal" they are.
> 
> How do you know Harley won't try and actually kill a puppy? Has he ever been around a puppy before?


You are right. I don't want another dog that I won't be able to do sports with. BUT, before we all go saying that these dogs are not going to work, I have to find out more about them. I am sure I will make the right decision. I won't get a puppy that I don't think will work for me.
He hasn't but he has been around small animals, should this help, or doesn't it matter? Besides, small animals such as rabbits are NOT puppies. Very different.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Dynamics of many groups are such that in order to fit in, be accepted, you get your dog from within the club...look over trial results over a period of time....you will see that many many clubs are filled with dogs with the same kennel name...that the majority of the people in the club have the same breeder's dogs....*I ***suspect*** that this may be a huge factor in her decision to get this puppy - and that she will continue to be told that the board's advice is useless, and that she should get one of these pups.....it is hard to ignore a cute puppy and especially when you are getting direction in person to get the puppy...*


Exactly what I was thinking. Good call!


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

wolfstraum said:


> While I agree with everyone about the inadvisability of getting a 6 week old pup, from unknown pedigree/breeder...there is one aspect here that is not being considered..
> 
> The OP wants to train a pup in sport - the club she has chosen to become part of apparently has a connection to this litter - and she has been advised (pressured??) to take one of this litter to train in the group....Dynamics of many groups are such that in order to fit in, be accepted, you get your dog from within the club...look over trial results over a period of time....you will see that many many clubs are filled with dogs with the same kennel name...that the majority of the people in the club have the same breeder's dogs....I ***suspect*** that this may be a huge factor in her decision to get this puppy - and that she will continue to be told that the board's advice is useless, and that she should get one of these pups.....it is hard to ignore a cute puppy and especially when you are getting direction in person to get the puppy...
> 
> ...


 I won't get one if the breeder doesn't have information about health guarantees, genetic diseases in the family, titles, temperament, etc. I will take in the board's warnings and advice. 
Oh, and you pretty much nailed that. The sire of this litter is a club member's dog's brother.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm not even quite sure why you say your might go with one of these puppies after everyone here has told you what a terrible idea it is..


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Here is the sire's pedigree:Raphael Von Haus Cimmerian - German Shepherd Dog
Raphael is not the sire, he is the brother of the sire.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I will find out much more about this litter before I make any decisions.
> So, my puppy will become fearful of people if he is around Harley? I won't be taking the dogs out for walks/play together, only seperately. This doesn't matter?


What she was advising is, if you DO bring home a pup at 6 weeks, it will learn "dog behavior" by copying whatever dog it has contact with. That is why those extra 2 weeks are so important - the pup learns how to BE a dog. Body language, bite inhibition, exploring new situations and meeting new people.

If you were to bring home a pup in that very impressionable period, it would copy the only role model available - a fear aggressive dog. When pups are just weaning and exploring the world, they rely on the adults of their pack to cue them in to danger. Even a couple of weeks later (8 weeks old+) the puppy is less of a blank slate and has more of its own personalitiy.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I'm not even quite sure why you say your might go with one of these puppies after everyone here has told you what a terrible idea it is..


 I don't know enough about this litter to just give up. I'm not going to tell the breeder that I won't be purchasing one of her puppies, when I don't know anything about them. I'm going to find out, then I'm going to decide what to do.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> What she was advising is, if you DO bring home a pup at 6 weeks, it will learn "dog behavior" by copying whatever dog it has contact with. That is why those extra 2 weeks are so important - the pup learns how to BE a dog. Body language, bite inhibition, exploring new situations and meeting new people.
> 
> If you were to bring home a pup in that very impressionable period, it would copy the only role model available - a fear aggressive dog. When pups are just weaning and exploring the world, they rely on the adults of their pack to cue them in to danger. Even a couple of weeks later (8 weeks old+) the puppy is less of a blank slate and has more of its own personalitiy.


 Okay then, this makes perfect sense. IF I buy one of these pups, I will tell the breeder to hold him for 2 more weeks. The very last thing I want is my FA dog's behavior rubbing off on my SchH puppy.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Okay then, this makes perfect sense. IF I buy one of these pups, I will tell the breeder to hold him for 2 more weeks. The very last thing I want is my FA dog's behavior rubbing off on my SchH puppy.


I think the more important think to consider is if this breeder is responsible. If s/he were responsible, then they never would have considered giving you a six week old puppy. A responsible breeder also health tests and titles their dogs, and so far it doesn't sound like that has happened either. Asking them to hold the puppy for two extra weeks won't change the fact that you will be supporting (what sounds like) a very irresponsible breeder, and without proper health and temperament testing, you may not have any idea with what you'll get in a puppy. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

GatorDog said:


> I think the more important think to consider is if this breeder is responsible. If s/he were responsible, then they never would have considered giving you a six week old puppy. A responsible breeder also health tests and titles their dogs, and so far it doesn't sound like that has happened either. Asking them to hold the puppy for two extra weeks won't change the fact that you will be supporting (what sounds like) a very irresponsible breeder, and without proper health and temperament testing, you may not have any idea with what you'll get in a puppy.


 Hmmm. I understand. I know she didn't title her dogs, but health testing? I'll find that out too. I know everyone is very against me getting a puppy from this litter, and I understand everything they are saying. I just want to check for myself. I will meet the breeder and ask her questions in person.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

You've gotten alot of good advice, and I am also not saying to "not" get this puppy, or that it will turn out a whack job, etc.

I'm saying, be informed, this is a dog you will have 10-13 years, before you even go look at them, know the pedigrees of the two dogs involved, not their brother or sister or uncle or aunt, you want to know the two parents. You want at the bare minimum HEALTH TESTING!, you want a breeder who is not only keeping your puppy past 6 weeks but ALL of them..

Get all your information first, because once you see them, all puppies are cute and most times all rationality flies out the window.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> You've gotten alot of good advice, and I am also not saying to "not" get this puppy, or that it will turn out a whack job, etc.
> 
> I'm saying, be informed, this is a dog you will have 10-13 years, before you even go look at them, know the pedigrees of the two dogs involved, not their brother or sister or uncle or aunt, you want to know the two parents. You want at the bare minimum HEALTH TESTING!, you want a breeder who is not only keeping your puppy past 6 weeks but ALL of them..
> 
> Get all your information first, because once you see them, all puppies are cute and most times all rationality flies out the window.


 Yes, I will keep everything everybody has told me in mind. But, wouldn't the sire's pedigree be the same as his brother's? They have the same parents, so what's the difference? And health testing I realize needs to be a priority. I NEED to make sure the sire and dam are health tested.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

The sire's pedigree is only half the equation.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

6 weeks is much too young to leave mom. They need their mom until 8 weeks at least!

I don't know any reputable breeder who'd let them go before 8 weeks, maybe a couple of days shy, but not 2 weeks.

ETA: what health tests are done? Make sure parent's & pups are tested for DM too, save yourself a wold of heartache!


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Sire is all DDR lines fro Chip Weiss' kennel.....nice looking and good tempered dogs....but not lines normally sought after for sport work...maybe the dam is WGWL and that would be a better possibility for sport....

Lee


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

who wants to bet she's going to get it inspite of all the people telling her not to get the pup?
i'll even give a spread of 8-10.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> But, wouldn't the sire's pedigree be the same as his brother's? They have the same parents, so what's the difference?


Yes, the pedigree would be the same IF he is a littermate or full brother to the sire. Thank you for posting the pedigree.

However, if there was no difference between puppies in a litter, you'd never have to go through the trouble of health testing, training, trialing, etc. to select the pups with breeding potential. One puppy in the litter might have hip dysplasia... one might have poor nerves... you see what I'm saying? There IS a difference. And we're only seeing one side of the equation, we need the pedigree of the dam as well.

I'm glad you're going to go check out the breeder, maybe it will help clear up some things. Please bring a camera and take photos of the breeder's place, the puppies, and their parents. Ask a lot of questions, however dumb they may seem. Get a copy of the pups' pedigree if you can.

Just don't make any decisions on the day you visit--puppies are cute and will tug at your heartstrings. But be strong, and don't exchange any deposit money until you get this thoroughly checked out. I know you're excited to get a SchH prospect at a low price (how much, btw?), but remember--you will be living with this animal for the next 10-15 years--you want to make your decisions WISELY, not based on saving money on the front end. 

I can sympathize with you if funds are tight, believe me. But getting a "discount" puppy will not necessarily save you money in the long run. If everything checks out with the breeder and the pups, it's great to save money wherever you can... but don't make your decision based on the lowest price puppy you can find.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> They are, but don't have titles. There ARE titles in the family.
> Can there be some other explaination?


 If they don't have titles.. do you know if the dogs compete in schh? Out here you get kicked out of club if you're breeding an untitled dog. Because the parents aren't titled, the puppies have to sell for cheaper. You can't do that to people in sport.. In any case, I have an amazing puppy with equally or greater amazing siblings from a litter. I kept the most ballsy and outgoing pup. Dads a schh1, moms not titled. What did I pay? 1000$ compared to 1500+. I have however seen people out here sell sport dogs for 7-900. I've also seen reputable breeders in the states sell puppies on buy and sell. Anyways, just because the parents are not proven and titled doesn't mean you'll get a crap puppy. A common stud I know of, works beautifully. Beautiful dog and titled to the nines. Have I ever seen any really good pups out of him? Not until a litter we had, and when I found out he was in their pedigree and I flipped and said to myself, no way.. You can get two really strong dogs together and make crap puppies, not just one or two.. the entire litter or two untitled dogs can have an exceptional litter. 

Maybe the puppies are fighting too much to be kept together? At 6 weeks we had some bad puppy fights. We also got rid of the dam at 5-6 weeks I believe because she was impossible to confine in a crate, outside, anywhere and was just happy going for a walk around her puppies pen.. didn't want to do anything but look at them and make sure they were still there. I'd ask your breeder why he/she is selling at a younger age.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If the schutzhund club is pressuring her into getting a puppy from this litter-I am not sure how different that is-than this thread....while it might be standard practice that pups leave at 8 weeks-not sure if that means that this is a terrible breeder-I would think that schutzhund clubs would want to reccommend breedings that they believe have a chance of being successful at schutzhund--


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

^^ and that's basically it. A pup thats good at schH.. As long as they grow up to have good hips, nobody cares what the dog is like if they work. I've seen the ugliest, ugliest GSD excel in sport and he was given to his owner at 6 weeks along with littermate to decide which one was better suited.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

rshkr said:


> who wants to bet she's going to get it inspite of all the people telling her not to get the pup?
> i'll even give a spread of 8-10.


 Hmm. If I think getting one of these dogs is a good idea and I've found out all the information I need to know and everything is sound, I will most likely get one. Despite what everybody is saying, yes.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Hmm. If I think getting one of these dogs is a good idea and I've found out all the information I need to know and everything is sound, I will most likely get one. Despite what everybody is saying, yes.


Regardless of what everyone says it is YOUR dog and your decision alone to make. 

You asked for advice and it was given, you're going into this with the tools to ask the right questions and I hope you find the dog you want either in this litter or in another in the future


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I will most likely get one. Despite what everybody is saying, yes.


sure you would. thus, the bet.
but what if the pup was $2,000?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Yes, the pedigree would be the same IF he is a littermate or full brother to the sire. Thank you for posting the pedigree.
> 
> However, if there was no difference between puppies in a litter, you'd never have to go through the trouble of health testing, training, trialing, etc. to select the pups with breeding potential. One puppy in the litter might have hip dysplasia... one might have poor nerves... you see what I'm saying? There IS a difference. And we're only seeing one side of the equation, we need the pedigree of the dam as well.
> 
> ...


 The sire and Raphael were in the same litter, but yes, I understand what you're saying. Not all of the puppies in a litter are identical to one another. There could very well be health issues with this sire (and/or dam), but I WILL find out, one way or another. Even if I have to hunt down the breeder of the dam and get her pedigree. 

And I know, it's hard to pass up a very low price. But I also know that it's more important that I get a dog with sound temperament and health. Quality is definately more important than price. I

I will also do my very best to think with my head and not let my heart get the best of me.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I will also do my very best to think with my head and not let my heart get the best of me.


:thumbup:


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

rshkr said:


> sure you would. thus, the bet.
> but what if the pup was $2,000?


 If the pup was $2,000, I would not be purchasing one. I would have to save my money for quite a while longer (which is fine, and would be worth it), but a $2,000 dog is out of the question at the moment. I know that this seems extremely sketchy. But I won't pass this litter up without seeing for myself what they are like and what the breeder has done with them and the parents. If I will not be getting one of these puppies, I will save money over the years for a $1,500-$2,000 dog, and make sure the kennel is well maintained, the dogs are titled, and there are health tests and guarantees.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Kaity said:


> Maybe the puppies are fighting too much to be kept together? At 6 weeks we had some bad puppy fights. We also got rid of the dam at 5-6 weeks I believe because she was impossible to confine in a crate, outside, anywhere and was just happy going for a walk around her puppies pen.. didn't want to do anything but look at them and make sure they were still there. I'd ask your breeder why he/she is selling at a younger age.


 The breeder is selling them at a young age because the pups are playing too roughly. Is this something that happens often? Puppies are playing too roughly and need to be seperated?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

holland said:


> If the schutzhund club is pressuring her into getting a puppy from this litter-I am not sure how different that is-than this thread....while it might be standard practice that pups leave at 8 weeks-not sure if that means that this is a terrible breeder-I would think that schutzhund clubs would want to reccommend breedings that they believe have a chance of being successful at schutzhund--


 Exactly. I don't know why the club would want to try to get me a dog that they don't think will excell in SchH. I will be training and they'll be the ones to help me. I do think my club will point me in the right direction.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> Regardless of what everyone says it is YOUR dog and your decision alone to make.
> 
> You asked for advice and it was given, you're going into this with the tools to ask the right questions and I hope you find the dog you want either in this litter or in another in the future


 Yup. I am SO glad that everybody is telling me all the things I need to look out for and all the things I need to make sure I find out. I was given amazing advice, and now, I will know what to do with it. 

Even if I don't get a pup from this litter, I will get a pup from another litterl another time. And I'll be even more informed, and I'll know what to look for and what questions to ask.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

freestep said:


> (how much, btw?)


 $400.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

> The breeder is selling them at a young age because the pups are playing too roughly. Is this something that happens often? Puppies are playing too roughly and need to be seperated?


Not a reason to separate them, they are 'learning' at this age from each other. Wait, they aren't six weeks yet are they? You said you might be getting one in 3 weeks, so if they will be six weeks old in 3 weeks, then they are 3 weeks old right now.

How old are they right now? 

If the breeder said they want them gone at 6 weeks because they are to rough , that's another red flag for me


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## la_nausee (Dec 28, 2011)

/start rant

What a ******* club for suggesting a litter from UNTITLED and UNPROVEN parents. Title in this case means, anything above a BH and starts with the letters I-P-O and the number 1 or the letters S-C-H and the number 1. Proven means, past litters grew up to do the work whereby the evidence is found in titles achieved. 

/end rant

**Please watch your language!!!**


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

You would think with one fear aggressive dog you would think twice the second time....

It may sound snobby, but I would not buy a pup for less than 700/800...GOOD breeders that aren't popping out puppies 3x a month HAVE to sell their pups for higher to just break even. 

400 $ each? Assuming there are 6 puppies, that's 2,400$ altogether. Is that even breaking even??? Sounds like they are trying to get rid of this litter, FAST. 6 weeks and 400 each? Any breeders want to throw out there how much it costs, in general, to raise a litter of 6 puppies to eight weeks? Including mommy's extra food?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> Not a reason to separate them, they are 'learning' at this age from each other. Wait, they aren't six weeks yet are they? You said you might be getting one in 3 weeks, so if they will be six weeks old in 3 weeks, then they are 3 weeks old right now.
> 
> How old are they right now?
> 
> If the breeder said they want them gone at 6 weeks because they are to rough , that's another red flag for me


 They are 3 weeks old right now. 

*sigh*
I know this all sounds terrible. I am going to find out as much as possible before getting one of these pups. (IF I do)


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> The breeder is selling them at a young age because the pups are playing too roughly. Is this something that happens often? Puppies are playing too roughly and need to be seperated?


Oh, jeez. Another red flag.  

At this point, the only thing I have to think is that this "breeder" has actually never bred a litter before and has no idea how things work... maybe this person has a nice female, and someone wanted to breed their stud dog to this female, and this person just sort of agreed to it, without knowing what she is doing, and is going along for the ride because someone talked her into it. Kind of like many people who post here asking really basic questions about a litter that they just bred. 

It is normal for puppies to play roughly, especially GSDs, and it's important that they NOT be removed from the litter at this time. I can't imagine that 3 week old puppies would actually be doing harm to each other. They need to work through play and develop social skills. If you take a pup away from its litter at the point where they haven't worked out their social skills yet, they may have an "arrested development" syndrome unless they continue to be thoroughly socialized with other well-adjusted pups.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


>


3 weeks old and the breeder has them all dumped out in a parking lot? Why? Why aren't they in a whelping box with the dam where they belong? This is an excellent way to expose the immune compromised little ones to all kinds of diseases that they don't have the strength to fight off yet. 

Just silly. :thumbsdown:


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Completely off topic but, is it just me are those are some BIG pups for 3 wks?


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

la_nausee said:


> /start rant
> 
> What a *******club for suggesting a litter from UNTITLED and UNPROVEN parents. Title in this case means, anything above a BH and starts with the letters I-P-O and the number 1 or the letters S-C-H and the number 1. Proven means, past litters grew up to do the work whereby the evidence is found in titles achieved.
> 
> /end rant


They are telling me that I should check them out and see them for myself. They were the ones that suggested I do this, yes, but they aren't trying to get me a puppy that could have major problems. We don't even know 100% if Ill be getting one, AND, like previous discussions, I will find out more information. AND just because the parents aren't titled, doesn't mean they are going to be crappy, worthless puppies. But there is a possibility.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

if i were you people, i'd shut it.
she's getting it, unless you can find a $350 pup. LOL.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Lakl said:


> Completely off topic but, is it just me are those are some BIG pups for 3 wks?


Here is a working litter from a reputable breeder. They are probably just under 4 weeks in this photo. Notice that they are in a whelping box, safe and content. This breeder would be speechless if you wanted to take them before 8 weeks. 









SL pups at 7 weeks:









WL at just under 8 weeks


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

rshkr said:


> if i were you people, i'd shut it.
> she's getting it, unless you can find a $350 pup. LOL.


 There is a good chance, but actually, I won't get one if the breeder can't answer my questions, or there are no health tests done to the parents. Or other obvious things. And just because I am trying to get a super cheap dog right now doesn't mean a cheap dog is ALL I'll ever get. If I'm not getting one of these, I'll spend much more for a REAL quality pup. But if I do, I will have to save up for years (not a problem).


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Here is a working litter from a reputable breeder. They are probably just under 4 weeks in this photo. Notice that they are in a whelping box, safe and content. This breeder would be speechless if you wanted to take them before 8 weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kill me with cuteness, why don't ya?! :wub:


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> 3 weeks old and the breeder has them all dumped out in a parking lot? Why? Why aren't they in a whelping box with the dam where they belong? This is an excellent way to expose the immune compromised little ones to all kinds of diseases that they don't have the strength to fight off yet.
> 
> Just silly. :thumbsdown:


 I know.
This is terrible, and a very good way for the puppies to get Parvo or another illness that will SURELY kill a puppy this young with no problem. I should walk away right now, but I'm going to ask her face-to-face, why she isn't taking necessary procautions with her puppies.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

I know everybody thinks I'm really stupid for even THINKING about purchasing one of these puppies (which you all should), but I WILL NOT walk away without getting my answers and a better understanding.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Lakl said:


> Kill me with cuteness, why don't ya?! :wub:


Plenty more if you ever need a cuteness attack!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> If I'm not getting one of these, I'll spend much more for a REAL quality pup.


Listen to what you just said.

You're basically saying "I will settle for a pup that isn't REAL quality, because it is cheaper."

You already said you wouldn't buy these puppies if they were $2000. Then why would you buy one for $400?

I understand and sympathize about money being tight. But there are some things you just don't skimp on. You find a breeder you like, and you save money for the day you will get a pup from that breeder. You're doing it backwards.

Now, of course there is a chance that these are spectacular, well-bred puppies, and the "breeder" simply has no clue what she is doing or what to charge for puppies. I know this is what you are hoping for... it's kind of like perusing garage sales looking for that rare antique that will fetch thousands at auction; you can snap it up for $15, simply because the owner has no idea what they have, where it came from, or what it is worth.

It happens, but it's very, very rare.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I know everybody thinks I'm really stupid for even THINKING about purchasing one of these puppies (which you all should), but I WILL NOT walk away without getting my answers and a better understanding.


I actually do commend you for this attitude. Find out for yourself. Go armed with the questions and knowledge you gained from this thread. Ask questions, absorb as much as you can and learn learn learn. You can learn a lot from someone else's mistakes. Just try not to repeat theirs...

BUT...you must be strong enough to walk away when your gut says it isn't right. I just hope you are not pressured or coerced into making the wrong decision.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Listen to what you just said.
> 
> You're basically saying "I will settle for a pup that isn't REAL quality, because it is cheaper."
> 
> ...


 I understand, and I realize that I'm doing the wrong thing. If one little thing is off about this litter/breeder/parents, I will walk away and save for a fantastic dog that I KNOW is good quality and will work for me. 

Yes, I admit, this is what I'm hoping for. And I realize that it is extremely rare, but also, not impossible. But I have to try and keep an open mind, take in all warnings and red flags, and look at the results.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I actually do commend you for this attitude. Find out for yourself. Go armed with the questions and knowledge you gained from this thread. Ask questions, absorb as much as you can and learn learn learn. You can learn a lot from someone else's mistakes. Just try not to repeat theirs...
> 
> BUT...you must be strong enough to walk away when your gut says it isn't right. I just hope you are not pressured or coerced into making the wrong decision.


 Thank you, I'm glad you can understand that I need to find things out for myself. 
I assure you, I can walk away if I find out something is not right or I can't get the answers I need. 
I actually have a small list of questions that I plan to ask the breeder.
They're all questions I based off of this thread, so I am very glad everybody told me that bad things that I really didn't want to hear, but NEEDED to hear.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The breeder is selling them at a young age because the pups are playing too roughly. Is this something that happens often? Puppies are playing too roughly and need to be seperated? 

NO , en o , nope , NO. That is why she wants them out asap . All of a sudden at around 5 weeks they get into vigorous games, eat more, poop more, demand individual time, socializing, evaluating , making choices for the best of the dog, meeting people making choises best for them, right matches. 


__________________


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Also, I think around that age they need shots, and I am betting she doesn't want to spend for them.


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## la_nausee (Dec 28, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> They are telling me that I should check them out and see them for myself. They were the ones that suggested I do this, yes, but they aren't trying to get me a puppy that could have major problems. We don't even know 100% if Ill be getting one, AND, like previous discussions, I will find out more information. AND just because the parents aren't titled, doesn't mean they are going to be crappy, worthless puppies. But there is a possibility.


If one is trying to avoid crappy and worthless puppies for the sport (trying to), then there are a number of things one could do to _decrease the chance_ of ending up with a crappy and worthless puppy for the sport. The _easiest_ among the many of things that could be done, seems to be the action of eliminating from the choices, breedings done between untitled and unproven parents. It's so easy... everything else requires a bit of experience and skill in the selection. Mindblowing why people don't cross out untitled and unproven breedings...........................................


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> I understand, and *I realize that I'm doing the wrong thing.* If one little thing is off about this litter/breeder/parents, I will walk away and save for a fantastic dog that I KNOW is good quality and will work for me.


Why would you knowingly do the wrong thing? Because of money? Money truly is the root of all evil! 

You've already found several "little things" off about this litter/breeder/parents.

Why not just save for the fantastic dog that you KNOW is good quality and will work for you?

I know, you're committed to the shred of hope that, against all odds, the litter will be everything you want and need and that you'll be able to save some money too.

Honestly, at this point, I want you to go visit the breeder just because *I* am curious to see what in the world is going on over there! But I still fear that you will smitten with puppy breath and puppy cuteness and lose your head in an impulsive moment. Don't let it happen.

However, let me say this, and then I promise I'll stop harassing you.  If you do lose your head in a moment of weakness and come home with a puppy, don't disappear from the forums because you are ashamed or embarrassed. You will still need help and guidance and there is a ton of it here. I hope you realize that we're not trying to be bossy or mean or make you feel bad--we really are looking out for your best interest.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't think this is the case here.. but some breeder's don't title their dogs (or feel the need to) because they aren't breeding to schutzhund, and they don't like the politics so they aren't involved. They can still have dogs that are 'proven' to do the work but aren't interested in getting titles. I will say it's rare.. and I don't think that is the issue with this particular breeder. I got lucky with a BYB dog once. I also got unlucky with a pup from titled, KKL 1 parents. I don't think this is the norm, but it can happen. I just keep reading about how bad it is to get a pup from "untitled" parents... and that isn't always the case. I do think it's important to get to know the breeder, and why their dogs aren't titled, though. If you're looking for a schutzhund dog, there are many out there that come from titled parents that are bred to the sport.


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## Gregc (Aug 10, 2012)

Who else feels like they're reading a Greek tragedy and you already know the outcome? Here's hoping for a surprise ending.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with Jag, it's not the lack of titles that bother me (however if you want to do a specific sport I agree going to a breeder who is involved in that sport / titles parents in that sport are important for me)

It's not even the ped of the sire's/brother, I, in fact, think its a nice pedigree but there is another very important dog that factors in, the dam

There are other red flags for me that would make me seriously look elsewhere.
1. 3 week old puppie in a parking lot? doesn't fly with me
2. getting rid of them at 6 weeks because they'll be to rough? doesn't fly with me
3. if this is to be a schutzhund prospect who is going to determine that at 6 weeks? no one I'd say
4. are the parents xrayed/OFA? ratings? and how old are they?
5. I could go on, for me, at this moment there are more negatives than positives but I'm going to shut up until I hear the answers to those questions and more.


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

Jag said:


> If you're looking for a schutzhund dog, there are many out there that come from titled parents that are bred to the sport.


not for $400! lol.

i too got my pup because of the price, $800.
however, the breeder have a good reputation, they have dogs serving on various police departments, they are also active on schutzhund sport, active in the working dog association of america, mondio ring and president of the kansas working dog association. they recently went to slovenia and was part of a team that represented the USA on some working doggy contest.
inspite all these, i still sent/pm'ed the pedigree of the dam/sire to cliffson1 and ask what he think of the breeding, temperament-wise and health-wise.
if cliffson1 saw a problem with the paired breeding, i was ready to walkaway from it.

if money is a concern, you can find a dog on a budget with titled parents if you look hard enough. _(mine got a schh3 sire and an schh1 dam with cgc, ibdt, obt,cal,idt and both are ofa'd)_ 
_
_


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

This is true, a nod from Cliffson1 is a great way to know if you're getting a good pup! 

No, probably not for $400. Although, I spent less than that on the male I used to have, and he probably could've been titled if I'd had the knowledge then that I have now. He did well on the field in protection with zero training for it at a few years old, and with the proper training I feel he could have had a Schutz. title. To make sure you have a Schutzhund prospect, the pup needs to be evaluated (after 6 weeks old) and would be best coming from titled parents if that's your number one goal... or at least from parents that have had training for that and shown good prospect.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't see any reason to continue putting the OP down further. I think she recognizes the red flags and is cognizant of them. She has a prepared list of questions and plans to address the issues with the breeder. We've said all we can about this situation. I actually very much enjoy her humble and inquisitive attitude. Very refreshing. How many times have we advised against a litter only to have the OP curse us and storm away? At least she is willing to learn and accepts criticism quite well. This forum has a tendency to launch full-on assaults and most people crumble under all that negativity. She has stayed and learned. I appreciate that about her. 

I am pleased that she refuses to take our information at face value. I am glad she wants to find out for herself. Shows moxy 

I hope she can have an honest and informative discussion with the breeder. I hope she learns what she wishes to find out. I am glad she wants to visit the kennel and find out how this operation works. I have my doubts about how well received her enthusiasm and questions will be at the breeder's. Most people will take it personally if you start asking too many questions that they are not prepared to answer. I have a sneaking suspicion that this breeder will not react so kindly when she starts asking the tough questions. But she should ask them and I am glad she is steadfastly determined to get answers. 

In the end, if she ends up getting this puppy anyway, that's _her_ choice. Free will is a beautiful thing! In the end, it will be her choice and come what may, it will be on her head. We have done what we can. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is sit back and watch someone make their own mistakes...but it's just how it is and people can also benefit from the lessons taught by mistakes. She should find out for herself and make her own decision. I wish her the best of luck and am eager to get a follow-up after her visit. I only hope that she sticks to her principles and doesn't get swayed by those around her.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Have you thought about contacting the breeder BEFORE you visit? Like over the phone or in email? You can get inital questions and concerns answered without having the puppy breath clouding the thought process? Or shouldn't the people you club with who recommended this litter know some info as well? If someone recommended a litter to me, I would think they would know SOMETHING about the sire and dam and at the very least be able to tell me why they recommended it? Whichever way you decide to go, I hope it works out for you.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> I don't see any reason to continue putting the OP down further. I think she recognizes the red flags and is cognizant of them. She has a prepared list of questions and plans to address the issues with the breeder. We've said all we can about this situation. I actually very much enjoy her humble and inquisitive attitude. Very refreshing. How many times have we advised against a litter only to have the OP curse us and storm away? At least she is willing to learn and accepts criticism quite well. This forum has a tendency to launch full-on assaults and most people crumble under all that negativity. She has stayed and learned. I appreciate that about her.
> 
> I am pleased that she refuses to take our information at face value. I am glad she wants to find out for herself. Shows moxy
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I don't see any reason to continue putting the OP down further. I think she recognizes the red flags and is cognizant of them. She has a prepared list of questions and plans to address the issues with the breeder. We've said all we can about this situation. I actually very much enjoy her humble and inquisitive attitude. Very refreshing. How many times have we advised against a litter only to have the OP curse us and storm away? At least she is willing to learn and accepts criticism quite well. This forum has a tendency to launch full-on assaults and most people crumble under all that negativity. She has stayed and learned. I appreciate that about her.
> 
> I am pleased that she refuses to take our information at face value. I am glad she wants to find out for herself. Shows moxy
> 
> ...


Well said, and I agree! Good luck to you!!


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I don't see any reason to continue ..........................................................


:thumbup:x1000


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

also agree


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Why would you knowingly do the wrong thing? Because of money? Money truly is the root of all evil!
> 
> You've already found several "little things" off about this litter/breeder/parents.
> 
> ...


 Because of that tiny shred of hope, and yes, sadly the money. :/ You are so right! Money is definately the root of evil, I agree. I just want to check it out and see if I'll be getting anything out of this. It can't hurt anything, right? So why not? 
I will do my absolute very best to keep my head on straight and do what I know is right. I will even write little notes on a post-it and keep it in my pocket to look at every few seconds in moments of weakness.
Oh, no way. Nobody is getting rid of me that easily. I need this forum! It has already helped me learn soo much, why would I ever want to leave? I know that everybody is looking out for my best interest, and I'm incredibly grateful for that. I don't think anybody is being bossy, rude, or mean; they are just making sure that I know what I'll be getting into. Yeah, some of the comment brought me down a little bit, but I know that they aren't meant to hurt me, only to help. And they did A LOT. So I want to thank you and everybody else who replied.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Here's a second thought - you're interested in puppies - and I will say I have yet to see anyone walk away from the puppies once they get there because they think they are helping the puppy ("rescued them from the breeder") so why not find some rescues or shelters to volunteer with and get a new puppy every few months until you find one you can't bear to part with, and truly save a puppy. It's probably going to be one from the same types of breeders as described, but you are not giving them your money, they are not making money that will encourage them to continue to do this, and you get to help great dogs find great homes.

Oh - you are in Missouri - there should be a bajillion puppies who need help there.


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## HarleyTheGSD (Feb 13, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> I don't see any reason to continue putting the OP down further. I think she recognizes the red flags and is cognizant of them. She has a prepared list of questions and plans to address the issues with the breeder. We've said all we can about this situation. I actually very much enjoy her humble and inquisitive attitude. Very refreshing. How many times have we advised against a litter only to have the OP curse us and storm away? At least she is willing to learn and accepts criticism quite well. This forum has a tendency to launch full-on assaults and most people crumble under all that negativity. She has stayed and learned. I appreciate that about her.
> 
> I am pleased that she refuses to take our information at face value. I am glad she wants to find out for herself. Shows moxy
> 
> ...


 Thank you!! I really appreciate that. And I will take all of the warnings/red flags that were pointed out, and make sure I make a good, rational decision in the end.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So many red flags with this litter and breeder that I don't even know where to begin. It's already been mentioned over and over and it sounds like the OP is _hearing_ the advice. _ Listening_ and _absorbing_... not quite sure.

Someone mentioned a few pages back that money is the root of all evil. Besides the "too good to be true" price (and when are things ever too good to be true??), there is not one positive thing I've seen about this litter in 13 pages. 

IMO... Money/price should be the least important factor when deciding on a dog you will be living with for the next 10+ years.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> The breeder is selling them at a young age because the pups are playing too roughly. Is this something that happens often? Puppies are playing too roughly and need to be seperated?


Sorry, what are you asking? Your breeder is selling them early because they're playing too rough? 3 week olds don't play rough from my memory.. 6,7,8 and onwards, yeah, they do. Some litters are more aggressive than others. We didn't get rid of any of our pups early, infect we still have 4/7 left at the facility that cannot be put together because theres too much sibling rivalry. This isn't something I'd think happens often.. you let them work it out for a while, that's how they learn. I've heard the puppies scream as their tails were getting yanked on by others for a good minute or so, you can't get between them unless they're serious injuring each other..


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

rshkr said:


> if i were you people, i'd shut it.
> she's getting it, unless you can find a $350 pup. LOL.


Yeah, no kidding.

To the OP, I hope you're at least looking at some other breeders so you have hopefully a good breeder to compare to.

All of the people here know what they are talking about, so why you'd even consider supporting this person who doesn't care about the welfare and development of their puppies is beyond me.

I'm out.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I understand completely the desire to at least investigate the breeder and this litter further. There is that chance that you could get a nice pup from the situation. 

My advice is to do your due diligence on the phone. Actually looking at the litter in person should be the last step in the process, and should only be taken if everything else checks out. Decide what your non-negotiables are before you ever pick up the phone. Health testing and some form of registration? Do not let the breeder explain away your non-negotiable items. At all. Those are the answers that will cause you to say thank you for your time, but I don't think this litter is for me and hang up. 

If you go look at the litter and use that as your first point of contact, you're going to fall in love with the whole idea of a puppy and then filter everything you learn through that filter. It then becomes a hunt for justification and not a hunt for information. Looking at the litter itself should be done only after you have decided to purchase, not while you're deciding to purchase.

Get a phone number and talk first. Ask your questions. Have them written down and write down the answers, too. Come back here and share what the answers are. That is the only way you're going to be able to remove your heart from the decision, and allow your head to do it's job.

If the breeder insists on doing it all at the same time, move on. There is no reason why you shouldn't get questions answered before you and the breeder invest your time and effort into seeing the litter.

Good luck!
Sheilah


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I just wanna ask one question, as I didn't see it mentioned. (I read it all, too). 

Who suggested this litter? Was it just the owner of the dog whose brother sired the litter? Or was it the others in the club as well? 
I think when people get dogs from the same litter, they form somewhat of a kinship almost. 

If that doesn't make sense, here's my example. 
Dog owner A owns the dog in club. 
Dog owner B owns dog in club's brother. 

Owner B: "Hey, a litter that my boy sired is born!"
Owner A: "That's awesome! I'll tell some people I know who might be looking for pups!"

That sort of thing?


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

HarleyTheGSD said:


> Thank you!! I really appreciate that. And I will take all of the warnings/red flags that were pointed out, and make sure I make a good, rational decision in the end.


A good rational decision would be not going to see the puppies. Thats like visiting every BYB on the block "just incase" they actually have a good puppy. Why not go to a breeder that you know is good BEFORE you get there.

If someone told me their cousin owned a seafood restaurant and I should go there, then I mentioned it to a couple friends and they all told me that the restaurant always sells their fish on discount when it is going bad, and the restaurant is advertising tilapia for 6.99$ I don't rush in thinking "OOOO! Maybe the fish isn't bad! There is a tiny chance and I might as well try it...I might get food poisoning but it is so cheap it is worth the risk"

There is a good chance you will end up with a fear aggressive, bad tempered german shepherd with a million health problems...but you are going to try anyways because it is cheap???


But hey....it could end up being a nice german shepherd a little outside the standard, but a good pet. Is that 10% chance worth the risk?


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

In the end the choice is yours!!

But a 350$ Dog now that you love, if it gets sick later due to poor breeding will cost you infinitely more in $$ and emotional pain.

I hope you find a great puppy and a great dog who is healthy and happy! It can be done!!

I took a different route I put $ a way for 2 years to get the 1200 I needed for a pup from a breeder I just adore.


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## lrt (Dec 5, 2012)

*young puppies in MO*

Can someone tell me where to report someone selling puppies too young? I just bought a German shepherd puppy Monday from a woman near Lowry City, MO. Her ad said they were seven weeks, but when I called she said they were ready to go so I just assumed they were now eight. I asked her date of birth because I'm a dork and have dog birthday parties and she said October 29th. It didn't click until I was back home and looked at a calendar that the poor thing was only five weeks! I love her and don't want to take her back but I'm very worried she'll be stressed and sick. She definitely acts very, very young. Is there somewhere to report this? It's just mean to separate them from their mommies that little.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

TrentL said:


> In the end the choice is yours!!
> 
> *But a 350$ Dog now that you love, if it gets sick later due to poor breeding will cost you infinitely more in $$ and emotional pain.*
> 
> ...


 
But let us not assume that buying a puppy from a well known breeder will insulate one from medical problem - NOT TRUE!

Our current dog has had by far the most medical issues of any of the number of GSD's that we have owned over the last 40 years (some BYB, some working and acouple also from well known show kennels!). They can happen from anywhere. (BTW - the type of medical problem may well vary however!)


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

lrt said:


> Can someone tell me where to report someone selling puppies too young? I just bought a German shepherd puppy Monday from a woman near Lowry City, MO. Her ad said they were seven weeks, but when I called she said they were ready to go so I just assumed they were now eight. I asked her date of birth because I'm a dork and have dog birthday parties and she said October 29th. It didn't click until I was back home and looked at a calendar that the poor thing was only five weeks! I love her and don't want to take her back but I'm very worried she'll be stressed and sick. She definitely acts very, very young. Is there somewhere to report this? It's just mean to separate them from their mommies that little.


Usually when dealing with livestock (and that's what dog selling usually falls under) you contact the Dept of Agriculture. Another place might be the local animal control/SPCA.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

lrt said:


> Can someone tell me where to report someone selling puppies too young? I just bought a German shepherd puppy Monday from a woman near Lowry City, MO. Her ad said they were seven weeks, but when I called she said they were ready to go so I just assumed they were now eight. I asked her date of birth because I'm a dork and have dog birthday parties and she said October 29th. It didn't click until I was back home and looked at a calendar that the poor thing was only five weeks! I love her and don't want to take her back but I'm very worried she'll be stressed and sick. She definitely acts very, very young. Is there somewhere to report this? It's just mean to separate them from their mommies that little.


Here's a chart by state - Missouri does have a law against selling puppies younger than 8 weeks old: Age to Sell Puppy Table


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## Marc (Oct 25, 2012)

wow just got to the end of this thread.... did she get the puppy or not?


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## sddeadeye (Apr 5, 2011)

I believe the OP did end up getting the pup, but not until 8 weeks old. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-puppy/194825-new-puppy-yes-indeed.html


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Just to let you know, 8 weeks is not the average...it is the law in most states. Letting puppies go earlier than that leads to socialization issues and other problems. But I'll let the experts chime in with all the side effects...
> 
> I would not get a puppy from this breeder if they are doing that. I don't know a single breeder on this page that would do that, unless the dam died or some other disaster.


It's only the law in 18 states (could be 21, haven't counted in a while). I hardly call that MOST

As far as separating early, I know MANY breeders that separate around 5-6 weeks, and honestly I completely agree with their reasoning. As far as sending HOME that young, the breeders I know that do separate still won't send home until 8 weeks simply to monitor puppies, make sure no health issues (hypoglycemia with a young pup), unless they KNOW the person. 

I have a good friend that breeds, I was going to take one of his pups home at 6.5 weeks but decided his lines weren't the temperament I was looking for (super drivey czechs, no thank you haha)


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Of course, what I just posted could be considered a dangerous post as well. Everyone is right, the average person SHOULDN'T take home a 6 week old puppy, and the average breeder probably SHOULDN'T be separating at 6 weeks. I do agree with everyone, in THIS situation it sounds like a very shady breeder and just shady dealings in general.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

those pups are cute, but what if the pup you get washes out as a SCH prospect? will you keep the dog for its life or return the dog to the breeder or rehome the dog?


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