# Attacking a stranger



## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

This is what happened. And it happened 2x now. The same lady. The same street. Same time of the day. I’m just going to describe this morning because the first time was exactly the same except Ava’s collar didn’t snap open. 

Ava is a bit over 2 years now, a vey cautious female dog with a little bit of a prey drive. She is good with children. Gets excited over some telephone poles but getting better and better at ignoring them. Every morning we go outside to our side walk for a bathroom break. Right when we wake up. Our side walk is really narrow with no access to the street. On one side of the side walk are house and on the other side is a hill. 

This poor lady wearing a big winter jacket and a backpack approached us. Ava didn’t like it. In the middle of pooping she started growling at her. As I corrected her the collar snapped open. She circled the lady. Still barking with hackles up trying to approach her slowly. The lady started talking to her and leaned towards Ava. Ava back off and barked some more eventually easing off but still kept barking. 

In the meantime I’m also talking to this lady and she is telling me I should watch dog whisperer which I clearly need after this. 

Then Ava thought she was gonna have a jolly old time and run on the hill with cars going on top. I did manage to get her down and eventually to the house. But you could tell Ava was in the mischief mood. She is great on leash. Great with kids. But when that leash snapped on it was like FREEDOM! 

The fist episode happened probably a close to a month ago. The only difference was Ava went for the backpack but I corrected her with the leash. 

This was a terrible experience and I was for the first time frightened. When it first happened I was just plainly pissed off. But now I’m disappointed because I really wouldn’t except that. She’s been socialized since day one. Like I mentioned earlier she is good with everyone. Generally gentle. Any insight and help would be appreciated. Thank you. 


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Since you know you have a dog that's bothered by things you would hope she wasn't, but she is, a better collar and paying attention enough to use space and distance to avoid things like this while you work on her obedience. Leave it, sit, down, and recall will handle most things. Hopefully you get to the point space and distance won't be important.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> Since you know you have a dog that's bothered by things you would hope she wasn't, but she is, a better collar and paying attention enough to use space and distance to avoid things like this while you work on her obedience. Leave it, sit, down, and recall will handle most things. Hopefully you get to the point space and distance won't be important.




I’m definitely getting a new collar. She’s been pretty obedient on the leash but it seems like she thinks she is bein cornered in this case. You don’t think it’s hopeless then? It’s been a bad morning. 


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Of course it's not hopeless!The big coat and backpack looks ominous to Ava and it scares her so she does the best she knows how to deal with it.A solid recall achieved after lots of repetition on a long line and then in a safe fenced area is what's needed.She'll learn the best and safest thing to do is to come back to you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Nothings hopeless. You just saw why people say "They keep us humble"


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Have a strong, good quality clip on your leash as well as a good quality collar. I've had 2 clips fail.


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## bkernan (May 17, 2009)

I didn't have as dramatic as experience but Hudson's prong clasp came open on it's inaugural night (not a great way to start out with the prong, eh?) and my stomach fell to my feet. I gave a calm "here" - knowing full well at 8 months old he may give me the finger with his eyes and bolt, but he begrudgingly came right to me even with a boxer standing feet away (I almost cried with happiness). From then on I clip his prong to his flat collar with an extremely sturdy nylon clip and I'm still nervous. I am so sorry that happened to you!

^^meaningless addition to this thread LOL but definitely sympathize!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Leerburg has a great leash that attaches to both the prong and the flat collar.with two clasps. The leather is strong and flexible. I love it. She can't go anywhere. It's weird how sometimes the prong just opens.
By the way: how old was she when you got her and how old was she when you took her into the world?


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

bkernan said:


> I didn't have as dramatic as experience but Hudson's prong clasp came open on it's inaugural night (not a great way to start out with the prong, eh?) and my stomach fell to my feet. I gave a calm "here" - knowing full well at 8 months old he may give me the finger with his eyes and bolt, but he begrudgingly came right to me even with a boxer standing feet away (I almost cried with happiness). From then on I clip his prong to his flat collar with an extremely sturdy nylon clip and I'm still nervous. I am so sorry that happened to you!
> 
> 
> 
> ^^meaningless addition to this thread LOL but definitely sympathize!




That is such a good idea. If one fails the other is still on! Brilliant. 


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

I've never had my prong fail but from day one I used it with a back up. Leerburg sells a dominant dog collar which is like a choke collar made of nylon. I get my stuff with brass hardware as I'm told stainless has a tendency to crack. Then I use a short tab with snaps on both ends to connect it all. The leash snaps to the ring on the prong, one snap from the tab snaps to the ring on the dominant dog collar, the second snap on the tab clips to the ring on the snap at the base of the leash. It gives me a back up for a prong snapping off or if the snap on the leash failed at the clasp. My trainer recommended this and that's who I bought the tab with two clasps from. I haven't found one online. 

The idea of the leash with two separate clasps sounds good too.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Most of us would get agitated if approached while pooping, give her some slack. :wink2:


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Nigel said:


> Most of us would get agitated if approached while pooping, give her some slack. :wink2:




Haha. That made my day. On serious note, the lady says to me you know your dogs look really intimidating and I’m thinking but you still kept approaching when Ava was growling at you. Face palm moment. 


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> Leerburg has a great leash that attaches to both the prong and the flat collar.with two clasps. The leather is strong and flexible. I love it. She can't go anywhere. It's weird how sometimes the prong just opens.
> By the way: how old was she when you got her and how old was she when you took her into the world?




We got her when she was 8-9wks. And socialized her right off. Same with the breeder. She was from the get go more timid than the other pups in the litter. The breeder said that living in the city will help her get out of her shell and it really did. She used to be scared of everything but given a chance she’d hide and with my reassurance she’d go and explore. Even at the park with other dogs if insure she’d stay close to me. She never fights with other dogs. She a dog wants her stick or toy she lets go. 


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I have overly dramatic neighbors who have given us the " your dogs are very intimidating" line. I told them good! that's exactly why I have them. Meanwhile his dog is loosing it's marbles at the fence while my girl quietly squishes her ball and follows me out to my pickup.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> We got her when she was 8-9wks. And socialized her right off. Same with the breeder. She was from the get go more timid than the other pups in the litter. The breeder said that living in the city will help her get out of her shell and it really did. She used to be scared of everything but given a chance she’d hide and with my reassurance she’d go and explore. Even at the park with other dogs if insure she’d stay close to me. She never fights with other dogs. She a dog wants her stick or toy she lets go.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She most likely is fearful from nature then. These dogs shouldn't be corrected for fear. This is probably the reason she reacted to this person. Correcting fear can make it worse. Instead you have to desensitize her. I would hire a trainer to help you.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> She most likely is fearful from nature then. These dogs shouldn't be corrected for fear. This is probably the reason she reacted to this person. Correcting fear can make it worse. Instead you have to desensitize her. I would hire a trainer to help you.




If I was to start it on my own what would you suggest I do? 


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Dogs are often leery of anyone carrying something. My puppy, who loves kids, barked at a couple kids at the lake a couple months ago because they were carrying car tire inner tubes on their shoulders. Once they removed the tubes and she saw that they were kids she stopped. But it's likely that the combination of the heavy coat and the backpack made your dog suspicious. It's just something you have to be aware of and manage. In this particular case it's unfortunate that the collar broke, but as @Steve Strom mentioned already just continue to work on obedience so that she'll recall dependably, and continue to let her see things. IMHO the more people and places and situations your dog sees (desensitization) the better she'll understand what is and is not a threat. I wouldn't read too much into these two events, as it sounds like the lady that was approaching you and your dog was not exactly acting sensibly, and it occurred in relatively tight quarters, so your dog got spooked a bit. If it's happening with lots of different people in different places, you may have an issue to focus on. But if, as you said, it was the same lady in the same restricted area, No harm no foul. Just continue to work on obedience and let this go...


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Dogs are often leery of anyone carrying something. My puppy, who loves kids, barked at a couple kids at the lake a couple months ago because they were carrying car tire inner tubes on their shoulders. Once they removed the tubes and she saw that they were kids she stopped. But it's likely that the combination of the heavy coat and the backpack made your dog suspicious. It's just something you have to be aware of and manage. In this particular case it's unfortunate that the collar broke, but as @Steve Strom mentioned already just continue to work on obedience so that she'll recall dependably, and continue to let her see things. IMHO the more people and places and situations your dog sees (desensitization) the better she'll understand what is and is not a threat. I wouldn't read too much into these two events, as it sounds like the lady that was approaching you and your dog was not exactly acting sensibly, and it occurred in relatively tight quarters, so your dog got spooked a bit. If it's happening with lots of different people in different places, you may have an issue to focus on. But if, as you said, it was the same lady in the same restricted area, No harm no foul. Just continue to work on obedience and let this go...




Thank you. Knowing Ava what you said and wolfie dog makes complete sense. That’s how interpreted the situation as well. With Ava and Phoenix being quite juvenile still, sometimes they make quite the duo when walked together. But we are working on it. I’m more often walking them separately until they mature a little more. Phoenix is almost a year but alone seems calmer than Ava ever was. Both are a pleasure to walk separately. Thank you for your input. I never thought I’d have this moment where I’d think OMG I’m failing my dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> This is what happened. And it happened 2x now. The same lady. The same street. Same time of the day. I’m just going to describe this morning because the first time was exactly the same except Ava’s collar didn’t snap open.
> 
> Ava is a bit over 2 years now, a vey cautious female dog with a little bit of a prey drive. She is good with children. Gets excited over some telephone poles but getting better and better at ignoring them. Every morning we go outside to our side walk for a bathroom break. Right when we wake up. Our side walk is really narrow with no access to the street. On one side of the side walk are house and on the other side is a hill.
> 
> ...


Well as they tend to say "I was not there." So that being said ... this whole scenario, did not have to happen. Wrong tool and "Poor Choices" lead to this fiasco. It's pretty much a violation of all my "Bubble Dog Protocols???" I would label your dog at best "unpredictable around people??" If one has to pick how the dog responds to given, "Strangers" in public ... I define that as "unpredictable??" That is all "I" would need to know. 

But back on point, it sounds like you saw the "stranger" approaching and felt pretty sure that *"hmm, this may be an issue???"* And "apparently" you were correct! But from there it all went sideways??? The "prong" was your first resort and when it failed at an inopportune time, the crap went down as it were. :surprise:

Wrong tool, wrong approach, in my "opinion" a better approach would have been to step in front of your dog! And tell said "Stranger to Stay Back!" The failure of the "prong" should not have been a factor???

And then came part two ie now the dog is free and has no recall??? Two years and no recall??? Well that is a problem but still, I'll not harp on it, because, well I'm a Boxer guy! And with those dogs, I felt that recall took to much "processing power!" Recall, meant stop doing whatever it is your doing, turn around and return to owner??? They move to fast and in "Crap Going Down Situations" I don't have time for there "foolishness!" So I default to a solid "Stay and then a Down," if required?? That stops the forward motion first and then gives them time to "think!" And then I will recall or go to them, if we are still working on a solid recall. 

It's just a set of "different choices" and I would lose the "Prong Collar." A "Correction Based" approach (first) while it can be done by "Pro's" and yes with a "Prong Collar" on this dog (nother tangent.) But it would be a difficult approach for most average owners??? I prefer to "KISS" by first showing a dog how I expect them to behave in given situations. A solid "Stay and do nothing," should work fine for most, lesse skilled owners, in my "opinion."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I would strongly advise OP or anybody else against giving orders to strangers in public areas as to what they can and cannot do. People are not obligated to acquiesce to your requests and most likely many will not and you have no right to expect them to. Trying to force that issue is something that could escalate real fast and turn quite ugly with the wrong person, even possibly get the law involved and not on your side, especially if your dog is aggressing. Most laws call for dogs to be under control in addition to being leashed. If you have a problem dog, don't try to control the environment, you can't. Stay focused on controlling your dog and implement whatever means necessary to ensure the safety of the public as well as your dog until you can get your dog trained.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> Well as they tend to say "I was not there." So that being said ... this whole scenario, did not have to happen. Wrong tool and "Poor Choices" lead to this fiasco. It's pretty much a violation of all my "Bubble Dog Protocols???" I would label your dog at best "unpredictable around people??" If one has to pick how the dog responds to given, "Strangers" in public ... I define that as "unpredictable??" That is all "I" would need to know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes. These would be great points if Ava wasn’t well socialized and displayed this behaviour on regular basis. She is a dog that travelled through out NA. She is a downtown dog that sits at Starbucks, plays with kids and is great at dog park. Spends no less than 2 hours in a day on workouts and socializing. She never displayed any aggression since or before and in between these 2 instances. 

The collar is definitely faulty and getting that fixed. Which collar would you recommend? Phoenix is on prong as well but it’s a different one. 

On the recall note, agreed. When she wants to be terrible she is. She is a terrible brat when she knows Im irritated with her. Her recall is good overall. She becomes deaf in a situation like with the lady or used to be at the off leash dog park when she knew she was going home. We are working on it. Her crazy playful kicks in and she is done. No one is perfect I guess. 

I definitely should have been more assertive towards this lady who insisted despite growling to keep moving towards us. And unfortunately the area I was in called for me to make her stop. I’m very attentive to the moods of my dogs and prevent any situation from escalating. Except the 2 times. 

Thank you for your input. 


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would strongly advise OP or anybody else against giving orders to strangers in public areas as to what they can and cannot do. People are not obligated to acquiesce to your requests and most likely many will not and you have no right to expect them to. Trying to force that issue is something that could escalate real fast and turn quite ugly with the wrong person, even possibly get the law involved and not on your side, especially if your dog is aggressing. Most laws call for dogs to be under control in addition to being leashed. If you have a problem dog, don't try to control the environment, you can't. Stay focused on controlling your dog and implement whatever means necessary to ensure the safety of the public as well as your dog until you can get your dog trained.


OH ... the "Casper Milktoast" approach to dogs with "people issues???" Thanks for pointing out to me why when I first had my "Troubles with Rocky" I figured out how to best deal with it on my own. And it worked out fine ... "Thank You Very Much." 

So I'll just ignore your broad assumptions and speak for "myself!" My dogs are not other peoples personnel property! If I body block someone's access to my dog, that usually sends a pretty clear hands of signal and I need not say a word! But if that is just to much for some??? Then most likely they are incompatible, as a "leader" for that dog so yeah "find a Trainer or Rehome the dog!" 

But fo for me and Rocky, (and dog's under my care) NO means freaking NO! I don't know how it is where you are?? But where I live, if one steps in front of there and blocks access to them, (non verbal communication) that is "Good Enough" for most people?? And I would happily explain the situation, if I was in a "Mood to do so!" And since I had to switch from, "Please do" *to my I pet *to "NO he's in training" and he was (he was being trained not to bite the crap out of strangers) but no one ever asked ... trained to do what???

But rest assured if I said, "NO" to may I pet, it meant freaking "NO!" I would have Luv'd to see someone try and get access to my dog "over my objection???" As if that is gonna happen??? So sure some stranger is always free, to call the freaking cops if they chose??? And my dog and I would wait quietly, for them to arrive and I will happy explain my part of the situation. And that "Strange,r" will still not have access to my freaking dog while we "Wait!" 

Others or of course as always, free to do as they see fit. But having a freaking spine is also a part of "Bubble Dog" ownership. I didn't think that needed to be spelled out??? So my bad I suppose???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't know what you are talking about. I simply advised OP and whoever else that is reading that they have a responsibility to ensure the safety of others from their dogs by managing, controlling, and training their dogs.

OP stated "Our side walk is really narrow with no access to the street. On one side of the side walk are house and on the other side is a hill." OP can correct me for assuming that since other people use this that it is a public walk. OP has no right to block or control it or to deny other people access especially because they have a dog that has aggression or control issues. It is OP's responsibility to clear the way and permit egress, not the other way around.

If somebody tried to deny me public access because they can't control their dog and won't make safe passage, I most certainly would be calling the authorities to report before some innocent person gets hurt.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I don't know what you are talking about. I simply advised OP and whoever else that is reading that they have a responsibility to ensure the safety of others from their dogs by managing, controlling, and training their dogs.
> 
> OP stated "Our side walk is really narrow with no access to the street. On one side of the side walk are house and on the other side is a hill." OP can correct me for assuming that since other people use this that it is a public walk. OP has no right to block or control it or to deny other people access especially because they have a dog that has aggression or control issues. It is OP's responsibility to clear the way and permit egress, not the other way around.
> 
> If somebody tried to deny me public access because they can't control their dog and won't make safe passage, I most certainly would be calling the authorities to report before some innocent person gets hurt.


 " Oh well we are at an impasse??? Because I have "apparently" no ideal what you are talking about either??? But hey I'll play alone. 

In my head, I pictured "no blocking off access" to a public sidewalk??? I assumed the dog was off to the side on whatever free space was available??? Since If the dog were taking a "dump on" the public sidewalk, most people around where I live ... would gladly step aside??? 

But hey, if being impeded in such a matter that "someone wants to call, the cops" while I cleaned up my dogs messed?? I'd happily lend them my phone if required and wait ... and they are still ... not laying hands on my freaking dog! >


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Dog ownership is a privilege, not a right. With it comes responsibility that belongs to the dog owner, not to the next guy or the community. One person's rights end where the next person's rights begins.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Chip18 said:


> " Oh well we are at an impasse??? Because I have "apparently" no ideal what you are talking about either??? But hey I'll play alone.
> 
> In my head, I pictured "no blocking off access" to a public sidewalk??? I assumed the dog was off to the side on whatever free space was available??? Since If the dog were taking a "dump on" the public sidewalk, most people around where I live ... would gladly step aside???
> 
> But hey, if being impeded in such a matter that "someone wants to call, the cops" while I cleaned up my dogs messed?? I'd happily lend them my phone if required and wait ... and they are still ... not laying hands on my freaking dog! >



Agreed. My priority is safety of my dog and humans involved equally. I’m in charge and if situation calls for it I have to be more assertive. Especially on our street. It’s such a stupid street. It is a dead end side walk. Only people who live there walk it 99% of the time. There are only 6 houses there. I’m degreasing here though. How do I desensitize her in this situation? With hardly any traffic there. Please and thank you 


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Dog ownership is a privilege, not a right. With it comes responsibility that belongs to the dog owner, not to the next guy or the community. One person's rights end where the next person's rights begins.




Absolutely! Well said. My dogs are not treated as toys. I do everything with them with eyes wide open. They are treated as the GSDs they are. However, even the best of us have bad days. So do the dogs. It’s just such a weird situation. It’s more obvious when one knows Ava 


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would strongly advise OP or anybody else against giving orders to strangers in public areas as to what they can and cannot do. People are not obligated to acquiesce to your requests and most likely many will not and you have no right to expect them to. Trying to force that issue is something that could escalate real fast and turn quite ugly with the wrong person, even possibly get the law involved and not on your side, especially if your dog is aggressing. Most laws call for dogs to be under control in addition to being leashed. If you have a problem dog, don't try to control the environment, you can't. Stay focused on controlling your dog and implement whatever means necessary to ensure the safety of the public as well as your dog until you can get your dog trained.




Clearly I’m new at this. What’s OP? I just saw the mark by my name. 

In this situation I wouldn’t give orders but I’d ask assertively for this woman to stop. When it happened the first time. The second time Ava totally read my vibe because i did say crap. And Ava knew what’s up. I know I shouldn’t except people to play along when my dog is a brat head. But I had to laugh (in my head) when she finally reached me and after telling me to watch Cesar Milan she said “cause you know your dogs look very intimidating”. And I thought and you still kept walking. I was raised with dogs my whole life and I wouldn’t approach a dog that I didn’t know that behaved like a jerk. 


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Thank you everyone for your input. Keep them coming please. I can take it lol 


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> Clearly I’m new at this. What’s OP? I just saw the mark by my name.
> 
> In this situation I wouldn’t give orders but I’d ask assertively for this woman to stop. When it happened the first time. The second time Ava totally read my vibe because i did say crap. And Ava knew what’s up. I know I shouldn’t except people to play along when my dog is a brat head. But I had to laugh (in my head) when she finally reached me and after telling me to watch Cesar Milan she said “cause you know your dogs look very intimidating”. And I thought and you still kept walking. I was raised with dogs my whole life and I wouldn’t approach a dog that I didn’t know that behaved like a jerk.
> 
> ...


OP stands for Original Poster.

My comments were not directed to you but to confrontational advice that was being dispensed by others.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> OP stands for Original Poster.
> 
> 
> 
> My comments were not directed to you but to confrontational advice that was being dispensed by others.




Haha. I realized it. Great advice anyways. You never know who you are dealing with on the street. Better safe than sorry. I’ve been thinking about what you said though and the way this woman was I think I’m gonna approach her for some assistance. I know it sounds bizarre but she truly is the only one that it’s happened with. The sidewalk is mostly deserted. Oddly enough I haven’t seen her for a week now. Darn. Do you think she feels the sidewalk is her to protect? Although she isn’t protective of the house. 


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I don't know your dog and it is hard to tell but it sounds like from what you describe that she is feeling a bit claustrophobic while in a compromising position.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> Haha. I realized it. Great advice anyways. You never know who you are dealing with on the street. Better safe than sorry. I’ve been thinking about what you said though and the way this woman was I think I’m gonna approach her for some assistance. I know it sounds bizarre but she truly is the only one that it’s happened with. The sidewalk is mostly deserted. Oddly enough I haven’t seen her for a week now. Darn. Do you think she feels the sidewalk is her to protect? Although she isn’t protective of the house.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wouldn't do anything to focus your dogs attention on the woman, trying to convince her she's ok. I'd just let that bogeyman fade into the back ground by ignoring her.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Steve Strom said:


> I wouldn't do anything to focus your dogs attention on the woman, trying to convince her she's ok. I'd just let that bogeyman fade into the back ground by ignoring her.




When this woman is around should I just go the opposite way? I know I should just chill as well. Ava definitely reads me like an open book. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Was this a nylon snap, or a metal snap, or was it a prong snapped open? 

For puppies I like an adjustable martingale, meaning that they have the nylon quick-release snap thingy. 
For adults I prefer a buckle collar for tags, and a fixed leather martingale. So far I haven't had any failures on either type of martingale. But, everything has a life. 

It's kind of embarrassing, but no one got hurt, your dog was a little weenie, but so what? And don't listen to the lady's Cesar advice. Just smile and nod and say, "Yeah, I should do that." Nothing like agreeing with someone to shut them up.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

selzer said:


> Was this a nylon snap, or a metal snap, or was it a prong snapped open?
> 
> For puppies I like an adjustable martingale, meaning that they have the nylon quick-release snap thingy.
> For adults I prefer a buckle collar for tags, and a fixed leather martingale. So far I haven't had any failures on either type of martingale. But, everything has a life.
> ...




It was an easy release prong. But it wasn’t as good as the one Phoenix has. It has this small clasp and I think when it went thru the loop when I was correcting her it snapped open. I’ll look into what you suggested. I’ve been walking them separately now since the incident because I have one prong collar and because I truly believe it’s the two of them going thru some juvenile behaviours. At home they are great. And separately they are awesome. 

I apologized to the woman and I was not confrontational because I could just imagine how she felt. But I also was petrified. I wouldn’t want to lose my dog because of MY mistake. 

Thank you. 


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> Yes. These would be great points if Ava wasn’t well socialized and displayed this behaviour on regular basis. She is a dog that travelled through out NA. She is a downtown dog that sits at Starbucks, plays with kids and is great at dog park. Spends no less than 2 hours in a day on workouts and socializing. She never displayed any aggression since or before and in between these 2 instances.


Oh I do understand and most likely it is perplexing??? But you got "lucky" not once but twice??? There is "something" there (in your dog) and now you know. When the chips are down, your dog seems to make "Poor Choices???" But you know "Crap happens" and as I am want to say, the best preparation for the unexpected ... is a "Well Trained Dog!" Been there done that ... worked out fine. 

Had you stepped in front of your dog, the Collar (problem) never would have come into play! Since no asked why I am so and anal on this point, step in front. Distance = time to react for you! Speaking for myself, if my dog or a dog under my care that I "know" does try to "step out front of me after I block a approaching stranger???" I would turn into him and deal with it! Rest assured that if that happens ... JQP is freakin gone! The problem you had is not with the tool per se, it was because your dog was allowed to "Bang into the collar" y being in front of you. That never should have happened but it did hence the issue. Fortunately he forgot about his original target and was more focused on being free of restraint!

So it worked out fine (this time) but if it happens again, it might not work out so well??? You allowed (intentionally or not) him to make an "independent choice" and in my view he chose wrongly??? Now you know ... he can make "poor choices," that's all you need to know. You need to make better choices for him. Some owners don't get a third bite at the apple as it were. 





Ava&Phoenix said:


> The collar is definitely faulty and getting that fixed. Which collar would you recommend? Phoenix is on prong as well but it’s a different one.


Yeah ... I figured that would get asked??? Chip specific rules and innate "Boxer Pig Headedness" keeps me from answering online! I will not redo my "work on this subject" here! That's pretty much as much as I can say without running afoul of:









Nuff said. 




Ava&Phoenix said:


> On the recall note, agreed. When she wants to be terrible she is. She is a terrible brat when she knows Im irritated with her. Her recall is good overall. She becomes deaf in a situation like with the lady or used to be at the off leash dog park when she knew she was going home. We are working on it. Her crazy playful kicks in and she is done. No one is perfect I guess.


 Continued recall issues, I'm gonnas say "Dog Park!" And yes no one is perfect. 



Ava&Phoenix said:


> I definitely should have been more assertive towards this lady who insisted despite growling to keep moving towards us. And unfortunately the area I was in called for me to make her stop. I’m very attentive to the moods of my dogs and prevent any situation from escalating. Except the 2 times.


Well yeah some people "don't make good choices!" And if I ever faced someone that "Piggeldy ignore???" Yeah most likely they would have felt the need to dial 911??? My dog, my rules generally speaking I'm a pretty easy going. I've never had to raise my voice to anyone over not being allowed to pet Rocky???

But as the saying goes ... :










I will go out of my way to help "others" as that is kinda what I do for a living. Vets as a matter of fact are my specialty. 

But "No One" Screws With my Dogs! NO means freaking, NO and "Strangers" best believe that! Hands off my freaking dog "if I say so!" Cause I don't play! I seem to get that point across pretty clearly without saying more than *"I'd rather you do not, pet my dog!"* Others are of course free to do as they see fit with there "Bubble Dogs" cause I don't play!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It seems funny to me that both @Chip18 and @MineAreWorkingline are saying the same thing in different ways...yet disagreeing...

Get a better collar with some back up, as was mentioned earlier, then better manage your dog knowing this stuff can set her off. Keep working on on training, solid recall, paying attention to you when distractions are present, and it'll work itself out. You're fine, just stay alert to situations that can cause your dog to lose it (i.e. high stress situations for her). 

Done!

And lighten up, she'll be fine, and so will you!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> It seems funny to me that both @Chip18 and @MineAreWorkingline are saying the same thing in different ways...yet disagreeing...
> !


LOL, well I'll take that as a compliment! But I had to stop as there is the "Bicking Clause," and I don't want to be the one to have it invoked. Hmm "self extinguishing behaviour" as it were???


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

tim_s_adams said:


> It seems funny to me that both @Chip18 and @MineAreWorkingline are saying the same thing in different ways...yet disagreeing...
> 
> Get a better collar with some back up, as was mentioned earlier, then better manage your dog knowing this stuff can set her off. Keep working on on training, solid recall, paying attention to you when distractions are present, and it'll work itself out. You're fine, just stay alert to situations that can cause your dog to lose it (i.e. high stress situations for her).
> 
> ...


Then you have totally misunderstood my posts. My comments focus on controlling and training one's dogs, others post to control the distraction.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If your dog is accustomed to a prong, you aren't going to get the response that I get from a martingale. A martingale is basically a prong without prongs -- not a correction collar. But it is safer than a lot of collars because, if you fit it properly, the dog cannot slip the collar, and it tightens around the neck like a prong, and not putting pressure all in the front or wherever. 

Evenso, it works great for me, and I can put them on dogs trained with prongs and in no time they are responding fine with them for me, but then I have a lot of experience training, and I do not use prongs. 

Your situation is what I see as a negative for prongs. I have a girl that is a little over 2 years old. She has never had a prong collar on. I know exactly what she will do and could manage this situation with her, with no collar at all. I think too many people have too much success with training early on with a prong collar that the dog is basically where they want it so long as the collar is on the dog. So training basically goes nowhere. But remove the collar from the scenario, and now you have a dog you can't manage. 

I took Quinn (my 2 year old) out to PA to play with a dog who will soon be 1. Their trainer was there, and my bitch was the distraction. We let the dogs loose to run around, and then I called, and my girl came right back to me -- HUGE distraction. But she came right back. 

Which brings me to the second problem with prongs. When your dog is used to the corrective action of the prong, it isn't necessarily easy to get them to respond to you when you don't have the prong backing you up. People suggest their dog is blowing them off. Well, yes. Perhaps they are. You don't have your I-mean-business-collar on them, and they don't necessarily think they need to listen. 

I want to tell you to ditch the prongs and build a training bond with your dog. But that isn't fair either, really. People can build a bond with prongs, if they follow the rest of the training fundamentals: timing -- positive and negative communication, not repeating yourself, following through, consistency, and so forth. I think the prongs let us be sloppy. It's great for beginners because the dog self-corrects when walking, and the negative marker is clear. Unfortunaltely, without the rest of the training, the dog isn't learning to trust you and to obey you without the collar. And then you have a 2 year old dog that isn't coming when called, and doesn't trust you to protect her. 

I am not dissing you. Because you are probably doing great for someone who is working their first or second dog, or GSD, whatever. I am kind of dragging on the use of prong collars and perhaps it isn't really helpful in your thread. 

I have held the belief (that this forum does not agree with) that if you cannot control the dog without using a prong collar, then you shouldn't own the dog. Part of the reason is what happened here. The prong opens and you have a naked dog that can get run over by a car, or might actually nip or bite a lady, and as you said, it might not be up to you anymore whether your dog lives or dies. 

I guess what I would suggest is ditching that quick-release prong, it's dangerous. Use the other one, but don't stop there. Go back to classes, and start really working with some of the other techniques. Work on training new things. Use some treats. Mix it up. Practice. Play a game with your dog without using your recall command word. Just her name, and give her awesome party-praise and a treat when she comes to you fast. Give her matter of fact praise for acceptable response, maybe a treat. Mediocre praise for a slow response. Try to get that response time to be 90-100% lightning fast. But work it up. Take your time and slowly increase the expectation for the type of praise and treat. Recall is a life-skill. It is. You know it. You dodged a bullet. Take this as a wake-up call. 

Training should be 95% fun, games, success, praise, and 5% or less corrections. Build a bond where you dog wants to do what you want her to do, where she is happy, and engaged, and just waiting for you to tell her the next thing. Then, you can throw your prong collar in the trash.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Then you have totally misunderstood my posts. My comments focus on controlling and training one's dogs, others post to control the distraction.


Sorry it just seemed very similar to me. The OP is already pretty clear that the incident was on her and her dog. Chip's point is to keep people out of the dog's face by downing them and blocking access to the dog, not the sidewalk. Your point, if I understood it correctly, was that the OP needs to control her dog without impeding access or travel on the sidewalk...not diametrically opposed IMHO.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

selzer said:


> If your dog is accustomed to a prong, you aren't going to get the response that I get from a martingale. A martingale is basically a prong without prongs -- not a correction collar. But it is safer than a lot of collars because, if you fit it properly, the dog cannot slip the collar, and it tightens around the neck like a prong, and not putting pressure all in the front or wherever.
> 
> Evenso, it works great for me, and I can put them on dogs trained with prongs and in no time they are responding fine with them for me, but then I have a lot of experience training, and I do not use prongs.
> 
> ...




Thank you thank you thank you. This is exactly what I needed. Perfect!!! I totally agree and I know exactly my mistakes now as well. When I train I think I accommodate Ava way too much. Meaning I expect less than I should for example when she is slow to respond I praise way too much. And she is a clever girl with no need to please. I did start a week ago with getting her more excited about training and while we train. Going shopping tomorrow for a martingale. Totally makes sense. Things just snapped back into place in my brain. Thank you again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> And tell said "Stranger to Stay Back!"





tim_s_adams said:


> Sorry it just seemed very similar to me. The OP is already pretty clear that the incident was on her and her dog. Chip's point is to keep people out of the dog's face by downing them and blocking access to the dog, not the sidewalk. Your point, if I understood it correctly, was that the OP needs to control her dog without impeding access or travel on the sidewalk...not diametrically opposed IMHO.


Look at it this way. If a dog were dog reactive, you can either train outside of a dog park under threshold gradually decreasing distance or you can go in the dog park and demand that every body keep their dogs away. Diametrically opposed.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> Thank you thank you thank you. This is exactly what I needed. Perfect!!! I totally agree and I know exactly my mistakes now as well. When I train I think I accommodate Ava way too much. Meaning I expect less than I should for example when she is slow to respond I praise way too much. And she is a clever girl with no need to please. I did start a week ago with getting her more excited about training and while we train. Going shopping tomorrow for a martingale. Totally makes sense. Things just snapped back into place in my brain. Thank you again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree with much of what Selzer mentions just be prepared for what might look like a bit of a set back, it does get better. Two of my dogs were started on prongs at one point and later switched to a flat or martengale as training progressed. Now we often work off leash among other dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

tim_s_adams said:


> Sorry it just seemed very similar to me. The OP is already pretty clear that the incident was on her and her dog. Chip's point is to keep people out of the dog's face by downing them and blocking access to the dog, not the sidewalk. Your point, if I understood it correctly, was that the OP needs to control her dog without impeding access or travel on the sidewalk...not diametrically opposed IMHO.


Just for "clarification" I tend to prefer "Stay" rather then "Down" in most circumstances. I only use "Down" if I have some stand off distance and feel the need. Down would not have been practical in the given situation but "Stay" means "Stay!"


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> Thank you thank you thank you. This is exactly what I needed. Perfect!!! I totally agree and I know exactly my mistakes now as well. When I train I think I accommodate Ava way too much. Meaning I expect less than I should for example when she is slow to respond I praise way too much. And she is a clever girl with no need to please. I did start a week ago with getting her more excited about training and while we train. Going shopping tomorrow for a martingale. Totally makes sense. Things just snapped back into place in my brain. Thank you again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Dogs know exactly whats around their neck. The problem you'll run into is thinking the collar is training the dog. Focus on the behavior and if your dog is understanding. You can make your dog dependent on anything if you lose sight of that. What do think that martingale is going to do for you and your dog?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Look at it this way. If a dog were dog reactive, you can either train outside of a dog park under threshold gradually decreasing distance or you can go in the dog park and demand that every body keep their dogs away. Diametrically opposed.


Sigh ... if I must. First other dogs were not the issue at hand "here???" And second as for your ridiculous analogy??? 
Who does that??? If people want to subject there dogs to the uncontrolled chaos of a Dog Park, they are free to do so. 

Most likely they will get no grief from People like me or our dogs, cause you know ... we aren't there. >


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I see what MAWL is saying. There is a huge difference between training your dog to be tolerant of humans, and telling humans to stay back. Especially, if we are where humans are allowed to be -- public thoroughfare. One takes responsibility for themselves and their dog's actions, the other shirks responsibility and expects the world to move over to accomodate their dog's "issues." 

Not sure how that works here. But responsible dog ownership should be about containment and safety and providing for a dog's physical, mental, veterinary care, and less about the state of their reproductive system. But it is what it is. We have huge drives to alter everything with four legs, and very little encouragement to actually work with and train a dog. It is almost like training and containing a dog is considered cruel or a necessary evil, when nothing is further from the truth. In today's atmostphere, if you have a little dog that runs around under the table and bites people while they are eating, but is altered, then you are an awesome pet owner. If you have a dog that will drop on a dime if you tell him so, even if he is chasing a rabbit or deer, then you are somehow nasty. And if that dog still has testicles, then you are a fiend. 

But I think I am digressing here.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Chip18 said:


> Sigh ... if I must. First other dogs were not the issue at hand "here???" And second as for your ridiculous analogy???
> Who does that??? If people want to subject there dogs to the uncontrolled chaos of a Dog Park, they are free to do so.
> 
> Most likely they will get no grief from People like me or our dogs, cause you know ... we aren't there. >


Think of it this way, some people give ridiculous advice about controlling other people because they can't control their dogs while others offer constructive advice about getting a dog under control before exposing it to distractions that are beyond their and their dog's scope at the present.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

selzer said:


> I see what MAWL is saying. There is a huge difference between training your dog to be tolerant of humans, and telling humans to stay back. Especially, if we are where humans are allowed to be -- public thoroughfare. One takes responsibility for themselves and their dog's actions, the other shirks responsibility and expects the world to move over to accomodate their dog's "issues."


Thank you!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Think of it this way, some people give ridiculous advice about controlling other people because they can't control their dogs while others offer constructive advice about getting a dog under control before exposing it to distractions that are beyond their and their dog's scope at the present.


Hmm the word "Stump" suddenly comes to mind. 

The term I claimed, "Bubble Dog," actually was first used here as a "derogatory term" from another member with views similar to yours?? He felt that dogs that had uh "issues" should just be kept away from triggers because they can't cope, wrapped in a protective Bubble as I it were??? I liked it ... I just viewed it as a mobile bubble. 


I build a dog's faith and trust in "me" by keeping "triggers" out of there freaking face! They get that, it works find with my dog and works just fine with dogs I worked with in rescue, "FEAR OF PEOPLE ISSUES" comes to mind. And with him we walked through a crowd of hundreds just fine. And if we did get stopped I would stop "Five Feet" away. And explained about him. Only had one issue when someone decide to step forward to "Pet" while I was ponder yes or no?? And the dog pressed into my thigh (I had seen no issues thus far so he was between and tigger) and I looked down and his eyes were big as saucers??? And my hand went out! Stop he's in training and we were outta there! My dogs my rules, I don't care, about people, it's my job to keep my dog safe and it's responsibility to keep "fools" from harm! And my "Bubble Dog Protocol" can do both, "Thank You" very much.


All a dog under my care, cares about is me. And it's my job to keep "People Out of There Face" if that is there issue. And they get that. I've had my share of hand picked prima donna puppies with perfect temperament ...no big deal. But not everyone starts with a "perfect pup??" 

It's your "assumption" that a "Dog" with "issues" is automatically wild and out of control??? I've never had a dog with "issues" Bang against a collar??? We get our walking on a loose leash issues solved first, before they get exposed to "triggers," just to be clear.

But hey feel free to "Make Crap Up" and I will continue to "keep people out of a H/A dog's face! I will continue to use a "Muzzle" if required?? And to not do distractions and to not use treats, with dogs with "people issues." I will use stand off distance and body block as required in public if approached with questions as we work on learning to ignore people! A "Zero Bite Policy" as it were and if I get pressed hard ... yeah one would need 911! Cause my dog would suddenly become the least of there problem! I don't play, but if this is to much for folks ... then just call it a day and "Find a Trainer!"


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## SitkatheGSD (Aug 24, 2017)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> Haha. That made my day. On serious note, the lady says to me you know your dogs look really intimidating and I’m thinking but you still kept approaching when Ava was growling at you. Face palm moment.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I haven't read the rest of the thread but still...

THIS

I have had do many times when Sitka is pooping or minding his own business and another small dog starts staring at him. Stika reacts with barking and I correct him, but the person just lets their dog bark and growl and jump, because it's small, while saying " you should control your dog: he's scary" !!! Y
es, my dog is scary ann reacting, but I am correcting him! The least you could do is walk away with your reactive dog. Please don't let your dog continue to be an ******* just because he's small! whether your dog weighs 5lbs or 150lbs, you should be trying your very best to control him/her!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

@ Chip People are allowed to give out advice, even if it does not agree with that of others. It is a public forum. Nobody should be cyber bullied into silence because their advice differs from that of others. 

I find it very rude and insulting to be accused of making things up because I gave sound advice that would keep OP out of legal trouble. 

Stop making this about you.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Obedience and desensitizing go hand in hand. You have to have the obedience in order to have the focus to work around what bothers the dog. 

IMO, I would work on the obedience and relationship with the bond. I used "look at that" with my reactive dog to work her around other dogs (her trigger). But you have to teach the dogs the tools needed before you can work them around their triggers. Whatever tool you choose. I used a combination of behavior modification and corrections. NO! You will NOT behave this way! And yes, that was the right behavior! REWARD. It's a balance of timing with a fair correction and reward for the behavior I wanted.

Put the high value on interacting with you. Put a solid recall, down, sit, whatever tool you need in order to have the control in bad situations. Then, as MAWL suggested, go out and work her at a distance to the things that she's reactive too.

Isolating a dog from triggers is exhausting. It's a constant struggle to be on guard and keep triggers away. You can't control everyone and everything around you but you can control what you teach your dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> @ Chip People are allowed to give out advice, even if it does not agree with that of others. It is a public forum. Nobody should be cyber bullied into silence because their advice differs from that of others.


 Oh a new tactic?? OK then, I have no problem with "differences of opinion?? But I do have a problem with people making "assumptions" about how problem dog's behaved under my watch. They aren't out there barking/snarling/lunging and banging against there collar??? 

I should them what I want and yes, for awhile I will stop and body block as required and they "Nothing." Once they understand there is no issue here (with people) then, they get to stand beside me, and I will still stop 5 feet away and negotiation "my I Pet" if I feel the need, otherwise it's, "No I rather you did not." And my dogs do "NOTHING." It was my impression that you were implying they did something "otherwise??" If I was mistake ... then I stand corrected. 





MineAreWorkingline said:


> I find it very rude and insulting to be accused of making things up because I gave sound advice that would keep OP out of legal trouble.
> 
> Stop making this about you.


I think I explained (about me???) And my legal advise, would be "to keep people out of a people issues, dog's face and one won't have a need for "legal advise."


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Shooting the wrong messenger? I NEVER said a word about any dog "under your watch". Making things up?

Harassing innocent people in public areas is against the law.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> Obedience and desensitizing go hand in hand. You have to have the obedience in order to have the focus to work around what bothers the dog.
> 
> IMO, I would work on the obedience and relationship with the bond. I used "look at that" with my reactive dog to work her around other dogs (her trigger). But you have to teach the dogs the tools needed before you can work them around their triggers. Whatever tool you choose. I used a combination of behavior modification and corrections. NO! You will NOT behave this way! And yes, that was the right behavior! REWARD. It's a balance of timing with a fair correction and reward for the behavior I wanted.
> 
> ...


If you stick with this A&P, you'll be fine. I've never used an actual look at that or any of the other techniques like it, but what I do thats pretty much the same thing, I don't try to convince them to not look at something and stare at me. Its just a matter of using a little distance. I find it harder to make them believe that dog over there is no big deal, then letting them figure it out for themselves. Or that woman from your first post.

As an aside, this isn't a whole lot different then anything else in life. If you go out with a chip on your shoulder, looking at everything as a confrontation, you're going to find them.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Obedience and desensitizing go hand in hand. You have to have the obedience in order to have the focus to work around what bothers the dog.
> 
> IMO, I would work on the obedience and relationship with the bond. I used "look at that" with my reactive dog to work her around other dogs (her trigger). But you have to teach the dogs the tools needed before you can work them around their triggers. Whatever tool you choose. I used a combination of behavior modification and corrections. NO! You will NOT behave this way! And yes, that was the right behavior! REWARD. It's a balance of timing with a fair correction and reward for the behavior I wanted.
> 
> ...


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> Obedience and desensitizing go hand in hand. You have to have the obedience in order to have the focus to work around what bothers the dog.
> 
> IMO, I would work on the obedience and relationship with the bond. I used "look at that" with my reactive dog to work her around other dogs (her trigger). But you have to teach the dogs the tools needed before you can work them around their triggers. Whatever tool you choose. I used a combination of behavior modification and corrections. NO! You will NOT behave this way! And yes, that was the right behavior! REWARD. It's a balance of timing with a fair correction and reward for the behavior I wanted.
> 
> ...




I’m not sure what happened with that post. It copied and pasted your response. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

I should mention that both dogs respond really good to my whistle. They both come from wherever they are when I recall them. They stay within my vicinity all the time. I taught Ava to keep an eye on me all the time. So there is no sneaking away from her. Problem now is putting her on the leash. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> I don't try to convince them to not look at something and stare at me. .


I went this route initially with Jax. It was a nightmare. Imagine being scared of something but not being allowed to keep it on your radar. You must look away and never know what it's going to do. That's what you do to your dog when you demand that they can't even look at it.

I found it created MORE stress in her to be made to not look at something she was worried about than to teach her she could look at it, release her to look at it with the command "look" and teach her that the reward was to look at it, not react, and then look back at me.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> I will do! This is great. I think I’ve been spending a little too much time at the dog park Lallygagging instead of using the time to train. It’s cold it’s just easier to let them go at it.* At home both are pretty close to perfect.* They are Obedient and don’t get into mischief much. But there are areas that I’ve already started refreshing. I’ve been working on Ava’s recall since the incident and she is already better. But she does still get skittish. With her I need to incorporate more games as well. She used to be really good pretty much till we got Phoenix. Thank you. Your post is very helpful. I’m organizing it all again in my head. Can’t lose the sight of the fact that it’s a continuum with such young dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Remember that dogs do not generalize. She learned it at home. But now you go somewhere, change the picture, change the distraction. You need to take 2 steps back and start over. Keep her farther away and work it like you are just starting. When she has that, then move closer, again you've changed the picture, start over. 

I once heard a general rule of a dog doesn't learn until you've done it 20 times in 20 different places. Work that theory.

For example, I'm teaching my dog a running stand right now for competition. He's doing it perfectly. I took him to training and he blew every single one. New place, new distractions. STart over with luring, helping him with hand movements, etc. End of day, he's locking up and doing them perfectly.

Take your time and read her comfort level. It doesn't all have to happen in a day. A dog that has been shaped and rewarded and taught to think will be able to handle stress far better than a dog that has been controlled and corrected.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

*MODERATOR WARNING *

ENOUGH with the making things personal. Stop bickering. People are allowed to politely disagree. Warnings have been sent. I suggest everyone re-read the forum rules.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I once heard a general rule of a dog doesn't learn until you've done it 20 times in 20 different places. Work that theory.


Same principal, but the way it was explained to me is dogs learn from repetition. So if your problem is recall, or if your introducing something new, I generally stick to just that one thing, over and over again, not combined with anything else. There's days I'll still only work one single thing out of how ever many things that have been trained. I go out and tell him its time to start, I train whatever, I tell him he's done. That's the easiest way I've found to keep from blurring things.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

One of mine is nervy and bothered by, I don't really even know how many different things. I can take him anywhere, and it doesn't really show, except that I know it. Obedience becomes like a comfort zone. At first its like the anticipation of reward or play with you, and like with him, it ends up narrowed all the way down to just walking or sitting next to you is a security blanket. You can't change their temperament, but they'll stick to what they succeeded at and where they found that comfort zone.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> One of mine is nervy and bothered by, I don't really even know how many different things. I can take him anywhere, and it doesn't really show, except that I know it. Obedience becomes like a comfort zone. At first its like the anticipation of reward or play with you, and like with him, it ends up narrowed all the way down to just walking or sitting next to you is a security blanket. You can't change their temperament, but they'll stick to what they succeeded at and where they found that comfort zone.


One of mine is kinda nervy too. Not really bothered by much unless it involves strangers in certain situations such as approaching and yelling loud at her. No one would ever know she is nervy unless they know what to look for. I know though.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

What Steve said!My dogs have learned/been taught default behaviors for when something makes them uneasy or afraid.It's definitely a comfort for them.They don't have to stop and think about the best way to protect themselves and feel safe.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Working on desensitizing a dog to anything is generally going to make everything worse unless you improve the relationship bond first. And training, obedience, rally, agility, nosework, flyball -- it doesn't matter, anything that improves the bond of trust between the dog and the handler. Evenmore helpful if you can do a lot of it privately until things are smoother, and then in a group setting, where everyone is controlled by a leash. 

First train without distractions, then add in distractions. Too much socilization is done when the puppy has no trust at all in the handler. Some puppies are ok with this because they are at an age when their leeriness of strangers doesn't kick in yet, or the are super confident dogs. But for the less confident dogs, no socialization is better than bad socialization. With less confident dogs, we need to let them relax and get to know us first, then we can go out there and try not to overwhelm the puppy, but going slow. 

Instead we have suggestions of 100 persons, places, and things by 16 weeks. Fine for a dog with a solid temperament. They will handle that just fine. For a dog that is less secure, it will overwhelm them. When a puppy is overwhelmed, only some will back up and cower behind their owners. Others will stand out in front growling, barking, snapping, and even biting out of fear. When that happens, then we need to do more than properly socialize the puppy. We need to rehab. Because usually when dog snarls, snaps, barks, lunges, or bites, the object of their reaction generally steps back and gives more distance to the dog. This is EXACTLY what the dog wants. He is rewarded and learns that his bevhavior did what he wanted. It's like a counter-surfer that was rewarded by a big juicy steak. Any dog will be looking up onto that counter for weeks or months after such a tasty reward. And to stop the behavior, sometimes more than an Eh-eh or No! will be necessary. Maybe a very un-pleasent sensation will be necessary to eliminate the behavior. 

And so the dog that has gotten what it wants by reactive behavior needs to be corrected. First improve the bond by building trust through training. Manage the environment so that the dog does not have another opportunity to make the negative behavior a habit. And then, with added maturity and a better bond, and improved leadership, it will then be time to decrease the distance between the problem and the dog. And if the dog does react, a quick correction, and moving on. Repeat. And then enough for one day. Take it slow, this is not a race. The dog will probably need to be corrected a few times, before he has enough exposure to figure out that he survives these people.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

selzer said:


> Working on desensitizing a dog to anything is generally going to make everything worse unless you improve the relationship bond first. And training, obedience, rally, agility, nosework, flyball -- it doesn't matter, anything that improves the bond of trust between the dog and the handler. Evenmore helpful if you can do a lot of it privately until things are smoother, and then in a group setting, where everyone is controlled by a leash.
> 
> First train without distractions, then add in distractions. Too much socilization is done when the puppy has no trust at all in the handler. Some puppies are ok with this because they are at an age when their leeriness of strangers doesn't kick in yet, or the are super confident dogs. But for the less confident dogs, no socialization is better than bad socialization. With less confident dogs, we need to let them relax and get to know us first, then we can go out there and try not to overwhelm the puppy, but going slow.
> 
> ...




How to do this when the dog never reacts to anyone except that one person? Seen only a couple of time. Never before or in between these 2 happenings. Never to anyone else. Doesn’t show fear at all. I’ve been watching her ever since and no sign of the same behaviour. 


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

See all these posts and helps are great but it seems all assume that Ava does it all the time. She doesn’t. She is well socialized. Sees different kinds of people all the time. Everyday. If it’s not a leash walk it’s a dog park. Different dog parks. Different streets. 


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Ava&Phoenix said:


> How to do this when the dog never reacts to anyone except that one person? Seen only a couple of time. Never before or in between these 2 happenings. Never to anyone else. Doesn’t show fear at all. I’ve been watching her ever since and no sign of the same behaviour.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


then be prepared for it to happen with this one person and shut it down before it starts. 

personally, if my dogs don't like a particular person, I take notice. They don't get to behave like idiots but I do pay attention to their response. It could be something like a medicine in the persons system they smell or it could be bad juju.


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## Ava&Phoenix (Sep 11, 2017)

Jax08 said:


> then be prepared for it to happen with this one person and shut it down before it starts.
> 
> personally, if my dogs don't like a particular person, I take notice. They don't get to behave like idiots but I do pay attention to their response. It could be something like a medicine in the persons system they smell or it could be bad juju.




Perfect! I watch them both like a hawk. Thank you. 


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree, one individual, and there may be something going on. Dogs can smell much better than we do. I have heard of a dog reacting to an individual, and days later he was diagnosed with colon cancer. Dogs can smell cancer. Was it a coincidence, though?

The canine brain, amongst its fellows, communicates almost exclusively through body language. Body language tells them the other dog wants to play, or wants nothing to do with you, or is more dominant, or submissive. They are in tune with body language, they are programmed that way. And, fearfulness has it's own smell. Dogs pick up on subtle traces of nervousness. When we are at shows, people will tell you to pop a mint if your nervous because nervousness will come out in your breath to the extent that the dog will notice and become apprehensive. 

People who do not like dogs, who are afraid of dogs, who are constantly looking to get something they have no business having may be sending very distinct signals to the dog that we and the person have no clue about. And, people don't want to let you know that they are frightened of your dog, some of them. Or they do not like your dog. The dog knows. 

Yeah, if your dog does not like an individual, the individual might not be trustworthy, might have something going on inside that the dog is picking up on, might be anything. 

Keep watching your dog, and increase the distance between that person and your dog. Maybe you will never know what the issue is. Maybe in the future you find out he is a pretty notorious dope-addicted burglar that cases the houses of everyone he knows and cleans them out. Probably not. But you never know. If it is just one person, then maybe the dog is picking up on something you haven't.


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