# When to neuter?



## critterlady (Mar 20, 2014)

Not sure if I'm posting this in the correct spot, but here goes, I have an almost 5 month old GSD, 21 weeks old, and I'm trying to figure out when to have him neutered. My vet says 6 months old, the humane society says 4 months old, but then I see posts on here and other places that say not til 1 year old. Can anyone help clear this up for me?

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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It depends. 

If you are planning on taking him to places where he must be neutered, like dog parks that have regulations on that, or doggy daycares, then you kind of will have to do it, as soon as it is required.

If you got the dog at the humane society, and they have a contract with you that you will neuter the dog within a certain time frame, then honor that contract.

If you are unable to keep your dog on your property, than six months -- before he is capable of siring a litter.

Some suggest neutering before boy-behaviors like marking and humping get a hold, 8-10 months, probably.

Structurally, many of us feel that it is better for a dog to remain intact until the growth plates close, and secondary sex characteristics have developed, 18 to 24 months. 

And some of us never neuter as we feel it is healthier for the animal to remain intact, or because we feel a working dog may work better in some areas while entire, or because we intend to show the dog and the dog must have all his equipment.


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

If it was up to me I would not spay or neuter until after a year for females, two years for males if at ALL possible. There seem to be fewer risks involves if you wait until their development is complete. Also, I understand there are circumstances where you have to. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Marking and humping are management issues, it isn't a reason to neuter the dog. 
If you don't have to neuter, don't. If you can't manage your dog responsibly to prevent oops litters, then neutering is the right thing to do. I'd wait till at least a yr old.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I prefer to wait until 2 years old or at least 18 months to neuter males and 1 year to spay females.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

My boy is getting it done at 5 months . He is 15 weeks now. 

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

critterlady said:


> Not sure if I'm posting this in the correct spot, but here goes, I have an almost 5 month old GSD, 21 weeks old, and I'm trying to figure out when to have him neutered. My vet says 6 months old, the humane society says 4 months old, but then I see posts on here and other places that say not til 1 year old. Can anyone help clear this up for me?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It is a personal decision if the shelter or rescue or breeder doesn't have it in the contract. I'm getting my dog neutered on Thursday. He is 6 months. My Ivan was neutered at 4 months by the shelter.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Never*

When to neuter? Never!

LF


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Diesel7602 said:


> My boy is getting it done at 5 months . He is 15 weeks now.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why?


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Why?


Because this was my choice. The younger they heal faster. I don't want zero aggression, and neutering helps. Never plan on breeding. Just a loving family pet for my boy that had autism. 

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Oh and on the side note. My pups father was put down due to not being neutered. It caused him to have hernia. Don't remember what it was called.

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## SoCal Rebell (Jun 3, 2009)

*IF *I neuter my now 7 month old boy it will be at 2 years, I'm waiting for the AKC Pedigree papers but I do know his grandfather was the same as my Cutter who just passed, the Grandfather SchH. 3 Kkl.1 so I may breed him.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Diesel7602 said:


> I don't want zero aggression, and neutering helps. Never plan on breeding.
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Aggression has nothing to do with neutering or not.

I didn't neuter my male GSD until he was 15 months old, he never marked, no humping and zero aggression. He is 5 years old now and is submissive without a aggressive bone in his body. He never sired a litter.

My male Dalmatian is almost 11 months old, he will not be neutered until he is 18 months old. He does not hump and he is not aggressive. He will never sire a litter.

At 5 months old your male is still young and still growing. I don't neuter early because I believe that the dog needs the hormones while they are growing and their growth plates are not done growing yet and I don't want my male to look like a female.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Neutering and Behavior | Angry Vet


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> Aggression has nothing to do with neutering or not.
> 
> I didn't neuter my male GSD until he was 15 months old, he never marked, no humping and zero aggression. He is 5 years old now and is submissive without a aggressive bone in his body. He never sired a litter.
> 
> ...


Urine marking.:Testosterone makes a dog more interested in advertising his presence by urine marking. Neutering your dog will reduce his desire to excessively mark his surroundings.
Roaming: Unaltered dogs often try to leave home in search of females in heat.
Aggression: Some studies suggest that neutering can decrease aggression toward other male dogs because testosterone might increase the likelihood of aggressive behavior. Other studies have found no significant relationship between aggression and neutering. It’s possible that competition for mates results in aggression between male dogs, so a dog’s urge to fight with other males might go away when his desire for females is eliminated by neutering.
Social problems: Other male dogs can easily detect an unneutered dog’s high testosterone level and become aggressive. This can make your intact dog a target of harassment by other male dogs. Neutering can reduce or eliminate this undesirable attention. And 
Inappropriate mounting. 
Others might have no problem at all like you stated. But this is why I am, just in case. I think as long as they are at least 5 months, then they are less likely to have hip, and joint problems if done younger. 


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

Pediatric Neutering
When dogs are neutered before puberty, it's called pediatric neutering. This procedure has become increasingly popular due to pet overpopulation, because surgery is faster to perform and because younger animals recover more quickly from surgery. At one time, veterinarians were concerned that dogs neutered before puberty would have stunted growth. In reality, dogs neutered before puberty experienced delayed closing of the growth plates due to hormonal loss. The failure of these growth plates to close results in longer legs and a slight increase in height.
Neutering after Puberty
It is traditional to neuter dogs between the ages of 6 and 9 months. No height changes have been seen to occur when dogs are neutered at this time. Research done using more than 750 golden retrievers suggests that dogs of that breed that are neutered before a year in age may experience the delayed growth plate closing and other orthopedic issues associated with pediatric neutering

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*Aggression has nothing to do with neutering or not.*
i am sorry but this is simply not true
there are territorial rights and breeding rights that males may perceive that neutering earlier than later may help prevent
even the female vet dr becker states at the end of her lecture on speuter that if your male is aggressive or you are concerned about potential aggression go ahead and neuter it
find that vid and rewatch it because some of you seem to have missed that portion or turned off the video early

and yes after having a number of intact then later neutered males i can say without a doubt that testosterone can indeed play a large role in aggression
for a pet home that just wants a nice pet i would always encourage neutering earlier than later


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*It is traditional to neuter dogs between the ages of 6 and 9 months. No height changes have been seen to occur when dogs are neutered at this time.*
can u provide a link to this article?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Diesel7602 said:


> Urine marking.:Testosterone makes a dog more interested in advertising his presence by urine marking. Neutering your dog will reduce his desire to excessively mark his surroundings.


Not my 2 males.



Diesel7602 said:


> Roaming: Unaltered dogs often try to leave home in search of females in heat.


Not my 2 males.



Diesel7602 said:


> Aggression: Some studies suggest that neutering can decrease aggression toward other male dogs because testosterone might increase the likelihood of aggressive behavior. Other studies have found no significant relationship between aggression and neutering. It’s possible that competition for mates results in aggression between male dogs, so a dog’s urge to fight with other males might go away when his desire for females is eliminated by neutering.


Not my 2 males again. I was just at my friend's house and I had my intact male and my neutered male playing in the yard with her female and male Dobermans. My profile picture is of the 3 males together.



Diesel7602 said:


> Social problems: Other male dogs can easily detect an unneutered dog’s high testosterone level and become aggressive. This can make your intact dog a target of harassment by other male dogs. Neutering can reduce or eliminate this undesirable attention. And Inappropriate mounting.


Nope, it didn't happen between my friend's male Doberman and my intact male. My intact male does not mount anything , my other male didn't mount anything either.



Diesel7602 said:


> Others might have no problem at all like you stated. But this is why I am, just in case. I think as long as they are at least 5 months, then they are less likely to have hip, and joint problems if done younger.


If anything I would think that they would be less likely to have hip and joint problems because they weren't neutered before they finished growing.

It is of course your choice when to neuter but maybe you should read both sides of the argument first, you might change your mind.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

laren your two males are well behaved but it is a well known fact that intact males as a rule will mark and dogs neutered younger often never develop that trait
there are exceptions to the rule and perhaps your two males are that


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> *It is traditional to neuter dogs between the ages of 6 and 9 months. No height changes have been seen to occur when dogs are neutered at this time.*
> can u provide a link to this article?


Sorry for got link 
http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/neutering-male-dog-affect-his-size-4661.html

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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

To neuter your dog or not? New studies change answer for some - The Denver Post

Risks and Benefits to Spaying and Neutering Your Dog - Whole Dog Journal Article

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> Not my 2 males.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad you haven't had any problems. And some might not. But there is a chance for other dogs. Every dog ends up different. But I rather neuter before hand just in case. Either way it's a win win. He doesn't get the chance of it just incase my pup is not awesome like your dog that is intact. 

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

LaRen616 said:


> Not my 2 males.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry I must of worded that wrong. I meant if it's done before 5 then they will have a higher chance at hip/joint problems. 

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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Diesel7602 said:


> Urine marking.:Testosterone makes a dog more interested in advertising his presence by urine marking. Neutering your dog will reduce his desire to excessively mark his surroundings.
> Roaming: Unaltered dogs often try to leave home in search of females in heat.
> Aggression: Some studies suggest that neutering can decrease aggression toward other male dogs because testosterone might increase the likelihood of aggressive behavior. Other studies have found no significant relationship between aggression and neutering. It’s possible that competition for mates results in aggression between male dogs, so a dog’s urge to fight with other males might go away when his desire for females is eliminated by neutering.
> Social problems: Other male dogs can easily detect an unneutered dog’s high testosterone level and become aggressive. This can make your intact dog a target of harassment by other male dogs. Neutering can reduce or eliminate this undesirable attention. And
> ...


Wow, where did you get this information? Or is it your beliefs?

I have 3 intact males, I don't neuter unless there is a medical issue. I've had males for over 30 years, not once have I had one 'roam to search for females in heat'. They don't mark, as a matter of fact they are too lazy to even lift their legs in their own yard. They will on a walk but it's not a constant need to mark every single thing. There is no dog aggression between them or any other dogs. We hike with a number of dogs on a regular basis. All these things are based on genetics and temperament not on neutering.

There is no right or wrong answer. It's a personal choice.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

thing is, much of the advice given to wait to alter is blanket advice with little thought to the lifestyles of someone you have never met 
and since there are few good and hard studies out there (see article below) that is really all it is
anecdotal advice based on your own observations 
aka opinions

*Behaviors that are most likely to be affected by gonadectomy are those that are sexually dimorphic (seen primarily in one gender). Examples of sexually dimorphic behaviors include flagging in bitches, and mounting and urine marking in dogs. Incidence of sexually dimorphic behaviors decreases after gonadectomy in bitches and dogs, with the decrease in incidence not correlated with length of time the animal has shown the behavior prior to gonadectomy. - See more at: Determining The Best Age At Which To Spay Or Neuter | AKC Canine Health Foundation*

most of this article is basically saying, well there is this study or that study but those studies did not take into account...blahblahblah
again lack of good studies and impartial evidence


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## critterlady (Mar 20, 2014)

Zeus will be a family pet and we have a large fenced in yard which he is never allowed out of with out a leash, the county we are in charges 3 times as much each year to register an unaltered dog as it does an altered dog. I am under no contract with a breeder or shelter to have him neutered, I just choose to neuter my pets and wanted to make sure I wasn't doing it too soon.

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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Wow, where did you get this information? Or is it your beliefs?
> 
> I have 3 intact males, I don't neuter unless there is a medical issue. I've had males for over 30 years, not once have I had one 'roam to search for females in heat'. They don't mark, as a matter of fact they are too lazy to even lift their legs in their own yard. They will on a walk but it's not a constant need to mark every single thing. There is no dog aggression between them or any other dogs. We hike with a number of dogs on a regular basis. All these things are based on genetics and temperament not on neutering.
> 
> There is no right or wrong answer. It's a personal choice.


I agree. There is two sides to every thing. It's really up to the op. But it's best to hear what others believe, and do what they feel is right. If not then they wouldn't really asked the question. There is always a fence sitter some where, they just need to pick a side. But they should really do some research on both, and decide. I put my reason to why I'm doing it. Some will not think it's right and have another option. But that is what it's is. Your own. 

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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

*Behaviors that are most likely to be affected by gonadectomy are those that are sexually dimorphic (seen primarily in one gender). Examples of sexually dimorphic behaviors include flagging in bitches, and mounting and urine marking in dogs. Incidence of sexually dimorphic behaviors decreases after gonadectomy in bitches and dogs, with the decrease in incidence not correlated with length of time the animal has shown the behavior prior to gonadectomy. - See more at: **Determining The Best Age At Which To Spay Or Neuter | AKC Canine Health Foundation*

These behaviors are when a bitch is in heat. They are not normal everyday behavior.

I agree personal situations dictate the choice. And frankly the vast majority of John Q Public should spay/neuter. Full shelters and countless euth's are evidence John Q Public is not responsible for their dog/cat.

I've never seen anyone on this forum tell someone not to spay/neuter. What I have seen is people give their personal preference/experience and provide study information. An informed dog owner is always preferable to an uninformed one.


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## critterlady (Mar 20, 2014)

In the county I live in you have to register your dog every year when it gets it's annual vaccinations, Zeus just had his and was registered for the first time this month, if I have him neutered next April he will be 16 months old, would that be a reasonable age to safely neuter?

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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

yes


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## Bob_McBob (Nov 15, 2012)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> They don't mark, as a matter of fact they are too lazy to even lift their legs in their own yard. They will on a walk but it's not a constant need to mark every single thing.


My intact male is 18 months old in a few days and squats to pee most of the time. He does the most half-assed marking I've ever seen in the garden, occasionally slightly lifting a leg while squatting  The only thing he is remotely interested in marking is female urine, and almost never during walks.

My last male GSD was neutered at six months and learned to mark years later after we moved to the country. He pretty much wanted to pee on every single object he could find during walks. Nothing to do with whether or not he had testicles.


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## The Stig (Oct 11, 2007)

critterlady said:


> If I have him neutered next April he will be 16 months old, would that be a reasonable age to safely neuter?


Yes.


Just interjecting here, in no way trying to influence the OP (or anybody else since this is just MY opinion) while I personally prefer to spay/neuter later, when the dog is done physically maturing and then some just because, ultimately, it depends on the owner's maturity level and responsibility in managing an intact dog. 

I will say though, there are some very interesting points brought up on why to neuter early. Hehe!


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

critterlady said:


> In the county I live in you have to register your dog every year when it gets it's annual vaccinations, Zeus just had his and was registered for the first time this month, if I have him neutered next April he will be 16 months old, would that be a reasonable age to safely neuter?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 
Yes. Growth plates are closed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Diesel7602 said:


> Urine marking.:Testosterone makes a dog more interested in advertising his presence by urine marking. Neutering your dog will reduce his desire to excessively mark his surroundings.
> 
> *This is a training issue. I have never had a dog mark in the house, and I have had bitches mark, but not in the house.
> 
> ...



In all I think the campaign to make everyone spay/neuter their dog has long used these arguments to scare people into doing so as young as possible. I think all of these are just misinformation. 

Frankly, I do not think the growth plates are closed by 5 months, and certainly the testosterone used in the growing process is not going to be there. GSDs grow upwards anywhere from 10 months to 20 months, and they fill out for even longer.

Neuter your dog when you want to. Lots of dogs are neutered all the time without issues (that they attribute to early spay/neuter), and younger dogs do recover quicker to surgery, they say.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

mounting and urine marking are not heat cycle driven dimporphic behaviors

*Behaviors that are most likely to be affected by gonadectomy are those that are sexually dimorphic (seen primarily in one gender). Examples of sexually dimorphic behaviors include flagging in bitches, and mounting and urine marking in dogs. Incidence of sexually dimorphic behaviors decreases after gonadectomy in bitches and dogs, with the decrease in incidence not correlated with length of time the animal has shown the behavior prior to gonadectomy. - See more at: Determining The Best Age At Which To Spay Or Neuter | AKC Canine Health Foundation*

am i the only one who finds it quite ironic that the same people who are touting studies that talk about bone growth and cancers are the same that totally discount studies regarding sexually dimorphic behavior? :crazy:


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Sue you are correct, growth plates are not closed at 5 months. I was responding to her question of 16 months. 

Diesel, your quote is true when a bitch is in heat, period. Flagging is heat related. Females mount and mark as well and it's not sexual behavior. It's dominance. If and when you have over 30 years of experience with a LOT of dogs (as I have), I'll be all ears...until then not so much. lol


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Don't Make This Mistake When Scheduling Your Dog's Neutering Procedure


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

*If and when you have over 30 years of experience*
oh but i already do
i just dont brag about it on here 
i know marking and mounting behaviors can be displayed by females but as a general rule it is males doing those things 
that said i dont think dominance is the correct terminology for mounting and marking in females 
some girls just do it that are not necessarily 'dominant'


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> Don't Make This Mistake When Scheduling Your Dog's Neutering Procedure


watch at 23:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enPCZA1WFKY


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

GSDAlphaMom said:


> Sue you are correct, growth plates are not closed at 5 months. I was responding to her question of 16 months.
> 
> Diesel, your quote is true when a bitch is in heat, period. Flagging is heat related. Females mount and mark as well and it's not sexual behavior. It's dominance. If and when you have over 30 years of experience with a LOT of dogs (as I have), I'll be all ears...until then not so much. lol


I don't know nothing about female dogs. Or males. But I'm learning. 

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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Spaying and Neutering | Angry Vet

And that is why we are posting. Many vets have changed their minds about neutering at 6 months.
My vet takes care of all the K9s in Central Florida.
He says he does not like to neuter GSDs if not medically necessary.

Both sides are being presented.
Ultimately, it us the owner's decision, but such extreme surgery ( desexing a baby) needs to be done with all the information read.


Diesel7602 said:


> I don't know nothing about female dogs. Or males. But I'm learning.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

selzer said:


> In all I think the campaign to make everyone spay/neuter their dog has long used these arguments to scare people into doing so as young as possible. I think all of these are just misinformation.
> 
> Frankly, I do not think the growth plates are closed by 5 months, and certainly the testosterone used in the growing process is not going to be there. GSDs grow upwards anywhere from 10 months to 20 months, and they fill out for even longer.
> 
> Neuter your dog when you want to. Lots of dogs are neutered all the time without issues (that they attribute to early spay/neuter), and younger dogs do recover quicker to surgery, they say.


 I didn't say they close at 5 months. I said if you neuter before 5 months it can effect the growth plates do to the hormones gone. It can make your dog's growth plates longer to close, which can cause your dog to have longer legs and be a bit taller 

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Behaviors can be trained away. My 16 month old INTACT male is not aggressive. He does not mark everything in sight. He is very well behaved and completely indifferent to other dogs. And we go to training twice a week. Proper behavior modification.

Osteosarcoma can not be trained away. Hemangiosarcoma can not be trained away. Hip dysplasia and arthritis can not be trained away. Those things will kill your dog, and risks are shown to be significantly higher in animals spayed, neutered before a year old. One study found that female Rottweilers lived on average 30% longer if left intact until well into their adult years.

You can train your dog not to pee on everything in your house. I see every single intact dog at my schutzhund club do just fine behavior wise.

It is up to each owner when to spay and neuter. But I feel everyone should be given the facts so they can make proper choices. Because long story short, when you neuter at 5 months olds, you may kid yourself into thinking fluffy will be easier to handle, but in reality you're taking an easy way out and increasing major health risks in your dog. Fluffy may be fine, or fluffy may die at 7 years old from splenic hemangiosarc which was shown to have an increased instance in early spayed/neutered dogs

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> It is up to each owner when to spay and neuter. But I feel everyone should be given the facts so they can make proper choices. Because long story short, when you neuter at 5 months olds, you may kid yourself into thinking fluffy will be easier to handle, *but in reality you're taking an easy way out* and increasing major health risks in your dog. Fluffy may be fine, or fluffy may die at 7 years old from splenic hemangiosarc which was shown to have an increased instance in early spayed/neutered dogs
> 
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and just what the heck makes you think its the easy way out? I'm neutering my dog because he is fearful. Because every single trainer and vet I have talked to have recommended it. "Do it now before the hormones kick in and he gets aggressive". That is what I'm being told. 

Do you think its easy for me to know that I might be causing problems in the future? But as the vet said in her video its better I have a dog with health problems in the future than have to put him down in the hear and now because he is aggressive. My dogs have a dog door and access to the outside. Another big no no for un-neutered dogs. Living as far out as I do I can't be leaving 4 dogs inside without access to get out to go potty when I can't be home. There is nothing easy about my choice. You say its a personal choice then you choose to rip someone for that choice. That IMO is just showing your bias on the subject.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

shepherdmom said:


> and just what the heck makes you think its the easy way out? I'm neutering my dog because he is fearful. Because every single trainer and vet I have talked to have recommended it. "Do it now before the hormones kick in and he gets aggressive". That is what I'm being told.
> 
> Do you think its easy for me to know that I might be causing problems in the future? But as the vet said in her video its better I have a dog with health problems in the future than have to put him down in the hear and now because he is aggressive. My dogs have a dog door and access to the outside. Another big no no for un-neutered dogs. Living as far out as I do I can't be leaving 4 dogs inside without access to get out to go potty when I can't be home. There is nothing easy about my choice. You say its a personal choice then you choose to rip someone for that choice. That IMO is just showing your bias on the subject.



Neutering your dog will not make him less fearful, and it may prolong the maturation process and lock him into fearful behavior when he might naturally grow out of it. 

Neutering a dog that is dominant-aggressive MIGHT make a difference. Neutering a dog for fear-aggression will ONLY remove his ability to sire litters. It will not improve his nerve. If the dog is going to become fear-aggressive, he will, whether he is intact or not.

Vets tell people to neuter their dogs because they are taught to push spay/neuter in vet school. A dog that has a genetic problem should not be bred, and one way to ensure that it is not bred is to neuter it. 

If your dogs have access to the entire world through your doggy door, then that is a containment issue. If your dogs have access to a secure fenced area through your doggy door, then I don't see what the problem is, intact or not intact. 

It is not hard to keep a dog that is intact. I think we create problems, by aggressively trying to avoid problems sometimes. 

If you are going to alter him anyway, a dog doesn't generally get a whiff of bitch in heat, and at six months, run through fire and water and fence to get at her. Lots of dogs do not get loony at all about it, because they have never been bred. And especially larger breeds often take 12 months or more to even be interested. 

Boys really aren't that hard to keep. 

Really.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

Long story short, that was not even aimed at you personally, more a generalized statement. 

My fear aggressive gsd was neutered at 4 months because he was cryptorchid. I still euthanized at 3 yrs old because of aggression issues. Neutering will not fix behavior problems.

Vets, and a lot of trainers, and most shelter workers push early spay and neuter for the fact to prevent overpopulation. They strongly believe you as an owner are not capable of properly training and containing your dog. And people buy into it because they don't know any different or because they don't want to worry about properly containing their dogs. Plain and simple

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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> Long story short, that was not even aimed at you personally, more a generalized statement.


I realize it was not aimed at me personally but every single person who has made the difficult decision to go ahead and spay or neuter early knowing all the facts will take it that way. Because it is something you shouldn't generalize on IMO.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm waiting for about 4 years with my bitch....


SuperG


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I keep intact animals, but I don't like seeing anecdotal claims that an intact animal is exactly the same as a neutered one. Why should they be the same? Sex hormones are important. 

Certainly in males it is obvious that testosterone plays a role in muscle growth, and in certain drives, include aggression. Intact males are less likely to back down from a challenge from another dog, and more likely to be challenged by a neutered or intact male. Males will try to mate with an intact female- try very hard- if they are exposed to one in standing heat. Both issues are not a problem if the dog is managed and trained, but they are there mostly because of hormones, and can be challenging for the average pet owner. 

In female dogs, the role of sex hormones is less obvious but just as important. Like all female mammals, female dog's hormones cycle throughout the year (on average a 6 month cycle in dogs). Female dog's hormones also influence behavior to quite a degree (any woman with PMS can identify with this). Both the good, and the bad. I think intact females have a similar "edge" that an intact male dog does. And intact female dogs must without question be managed to prevent accidental pregnancies during their heat cycles. 

I am against early spay and neuter, and I am all about keeping the dog intact for life if you can manage it. But it is not accurate to claim that certain behaviors can not be attributed to the sex hormones. Of course hormones play a role in behavior, just like the loss of hormones play a role (both good and bad on both sides). It's important to be aware of this and prepared to train and manage the dog appropriately when you keep them intact.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A spayed female can have more of an edge than an intact one. 

Most of the reasons people cite for early spay/neuter are false, or the amount of energy put into dealing with them is not nearly worth doing surgery to prevent them. Ordinary training can prevent most of them, to the point that most of us who have intact animals do not see any major inconvenience in keeping them intact, except of course the actual blood of the heat cycle.

One dog in a thousand, maybe in ten thousand will go through a wall to get to a bitch in heat, and that dog has probably already been bred. Most of our dogs won't go through a crate if there is a bitch in standing heat in the same house. I could call off my boys to kennel them, who had bitches flagging at them through the fence. Boys are not that hard to keep. 

Girls are tougher. But I think if anything, an intact bitch has a better temperament, more gentle, save maybe SSA.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

my boy diesel said:


> *If and when you have over 30 years of experience*
> oh but i already do
> i just dont brag about it on here


 
Wow, my apology, very well kept secret with all the defensiveness I thought you were a teenager. Your crusade is dully noted...a sampling of the last month. 


9 month old with one knee larger than the other - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Dude now six months - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Spay or Neuter: Male and Female Living Together - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Does anyone own a king gsd? - Page 3 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Spaying Debate - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Advice on a new to us 10 mo German Shepherd - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Buying a puppy from a friend, help and advice would be appreciated - Page 16 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Aggressive/dominant 4.5 month old GSD - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Neutering on Monday - nervous!! - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Probability of retained testicle dropping? - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Vaccinations today have me worried after reviewing owner opinions on this forum - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> I realize it was not aimed at me personally but every single person who has made the difficult decision to go ahead and spay or neuter early knowing all the facts will take it that way. Because it is something you shouldn't generalize on IMO.


Well I simply look at it like this, if you know waiting until 12 months-18 months can potentially reduce the risks of some pretty serious and fatal health issues, then why not wait? What is that 6 months going to affect? Behavior? Because it won't with proper training. Berlin was on the field with a 17 month old male and and an intact in heat female, and all was fine during training last sunday, I think that was due to young age still. I would not expect a 3 year old intact male to remain as calm. But an immature male? Yes. They are not sex crazed beasts.

Scared he'll get out and get a bitch pregnant? Because he won't with proper containment. And an aggressive dog NEEDS proper containment, intact or not. In fact any dog should be properly contained, intact or not. That's what stops dog bites and hit by cars and fights.

So as I said, early spaying and neutering is a patch used by many to cover lack of proper containment and training, but it's not going to do anything for your fear aggressive dog that will still be fear aggressive in 6 months, 12 months, 5 years down the line.

Spay and neuter whenever you want. All my friends and coworkers have done in before 6 months old, and although I disagreed, their dogs their choice good for them. Just don't think it's going to help with fear aggression 

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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

selzer said:


> A spayed female can have more of an edge than an intact one.
> 
> Most of the reasons people cite for early spay/neuter are false, or the amount of energy put into dealing with them is not nearly worth doing surgery to prevent them. Ordinary training can prevent most of them, to the point that most of us who have intact animals do not see any major inconvenience in keeping them intact, except of course the actual blood of the heat cycle.
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Like I said I just worked berlin on the same field as a bitch in heat and I don't think he or the other 17 month old intact male gsd even glanced at her. Heck, berlin and his littermates haven't even lifted their legs yet, they ALL still squat and pee.

I can't imagine the owner that would just let their dog mark all over the house... 

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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Russell is the first intact male that I've had. He's 15 months now, and lives with 2 intact girls. He doesn't hike his leg in his own yard, but does away from home. He would never in a million years mark in the house. He's growing out of the humping stage that he went through several months ago. I was really worried about having an intact male, but he's not been one bit of a problem. He's a pretty dominant dog, but gets along with every shepherd (male or female, al intact) that he's been around. 

I had him at the grooming shop yesterday and took him out to pee. He walked over to the telephone pole, hiked up the _wrong_ leg, and peed. Silly boy.


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

* But it is not accurate to claim that certain behaviors can not be attributed to the sex hormones. Of course hormones play a role in behavior, just like the loss of hormones play a role (both good and bad on both sides). It's important to be aware of this and prepared to train and manage the dog appropriately when you keep them intact.*
thank you 
i think you are the only one to acknowledge this!

* but in reality you're taking an easy way out*


seriously?
these are _pets_ they are not children
pets when i last checked are here for our enjoyment 
not an added headache and to make our lives more difficult!

you seem to think having intact pets is some sort of test of good ownership
but i am here to tell ya it is not
it is a choice plain and simple and as i have said before having intact pets does not make you a better owner 
just like having altered pets does not make you uneducated 

for gosh sake i am surprised nobody has slung out the 'raw is better and if you feed kibble you are a terrible owner' argument yet
that is what this argument is akin to btw
it seems some are ranting on as if to say if you chose early speuter you should not even own a pet!


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

my boy diesel said:


> * But it is not accurate to claim that certain behaviors can not be attributed to the sex hormones. Of course hormones play a role in behavior, just like the loss of hormones play a role (both good and bad on both sides). It's important to be aware of this and prepared to train and manage the dog appropriately when you keep them intact.*
> thank you
> i think you are the only one to acknowledge this!
> 
> ...


Well raw IS better but we won't even go there....


I don't think I saw anyone say "you're horrible for neutering young". In fact read where I noted my own fear aggressive boy that was neutered at 4 months old. Zeke was neutered at 9 months old. Now with berlin I know more in the medical field and I've done my own research and my mind has changed on things. But I think it has been commonly stated in this thread, don't have an intact pet if you can't or don't want to handle an intact pet, or you will have problems. So no one has stated that the op is a horrible pet owner.

It's also though just as equally been stated, neutering a dog is NOT going to change fear aggression.

Since when have we not been allowed to state facts for fear of hurting feelings?

You yourself stated intact dogs could have problems like marking, humping, etc. All these problems can be trained out. But if you neuter early to avoid these problems instead of training isn't that.... taking the easy way out?

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## Kiitsu (Apr 20, 2014)

I am not neutering Thor unless I absolutely cannot manage marking and such, if he spontaneously becomes aggressive, or if he is otherwise COMPLETELY unmanageable. Only if all options are exhausted. I may neuter him when he is around a year and a half old, but I rather keep him intact. I think sex-related issues are entirely a matter of management. And I think most people think that these issues are always going to be extreme, when they aren't necessarily.
That being said, it is always the owners choice. I believe in waiting until maturity or not at all for MANY reasons, but that is just my own opinion. Everyone is entitled to their own choice with their own dog.
And for the record, my mother has a neutered male chihuahua that has aggression problems, and also still marks in places that he shouldn't.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Eko is intact, I was going to neuter him at 2 but he has been such a good dog other than DA and being territorial around the front door that I don't feel the need to unless medically necessary. The humping, marking, testing urine is gross and annoying but I can get over it. I did have Xena spayed at 6 months because I didn't feel like I could handle an intact pair, a female dog in heat, and not to mention it is also required by law in my city that unless you have a permit all APBTs and their mixes must be altered at 6 months.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

All mine have always been fixed between 6 months and a year, male or female. I've read and researched and weighed all options including early, later, or never and based on that I made my decision. I did go back and forth with the age but I will never have an intact dog. I've seen to many females with pyometra and not only is it expensive, it can be fatal and very hard on the dog. The last one was a month ago and the dog almost didn't make it. As for males I just don't see any reason to keep them intact.


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## Diesel7602 (Mar 12, 2014)

my boy diesel said:


> * But it is not accurate to claim that certain behaviors can not be attributed to the sex hormones. Of course hormones play a role in behavior, just like the loss of hormones play a role (both good and bad on both sides). It's important to be aware of this and prepared to train and manage the dog appropriately when you keep them intact.*
> thank you
> i think you are the only one to acknowledge this!
> 
> ...


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

My breeder contract specifically states the warranty will be null and void if the puppy is fixed before 14 months. Aside from that, I still think I would wait till he is 18-24 months old before fixing. There are conflicting studies that show intact males are just as healthy or healthier than fixed males, there are studies that show early fixing may cause arthritis later and I have seen some very feminine looking males, which were fixed too early. 

It is a personal choice and I don't hold it against anyone no matter what their decision is. At this point my preference is to hold off as the breeder/vet recommended. Have to trust someone, and I chose to trust her when it came to picking a puppy for me and when it comes to his health.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My breeder also told me to wait until my Dal puppy is at least a year old before neutering, I wanted to wait until he is 2 years old but he is cryptorchid so he has to be neutered no later than 18 months.


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