# IMO Animal Abuse charges should be filed agained him



## FlyAway

CM trying to "rehabilitate" a resource guarder. The owners of the dog admitted in the tv show that they had hit the dog with a broom to try to solve the problem. I didn't see the show, though, just this clip. 

Why do people idolize this guy. (I'd like to use a stronger word.)


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## Liesje

I'm not condoning him because I'm not a fan but I don't think he's any more responsible for the dog's condition than the owners. I don't know why he bothers with a show or why people glorify it. He gets called in my clueless owners who have basically trained and reinforced their dogs to do all manner of dangerous habits and then expect CM to fix it over night.


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## bocron

When he pointed toward the dog and was commenting on the "relaxation" I was thinking to myself, no, the dog looks worried and cornered. Guess so!


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## Shade

I'm curious, if you were in his position what would you do?

Abuse is a very strong word, did he hit the dog with a baseball bat or chain? Yes he kicked the dog but he had a large dog literally hanging off his hand and biting as hard as he could. That was a nasty bite yet once the dog stopped attacking him Cesar didn't do anything more then not back down. The dog has obviously been taught by the owners "if I'm aggressive I get what I want because they're scared of me." The dog was unsure because Cesar wasn't backing down even after the dog did it's worse. IMO what the dog did to Cesar was much worse then what Cesar did to the dog

I'm not saying that he was right 100% but I also didn't see anything over the top. Just my opinion


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## gsdraven

The abuse is pushing the dog to have to bite him in the first place. The challenging and hard staring and hitting her that provoked the bite when she was clearly displaying calming and appeasment signals the whole time.

The are better ways to treat food aggression and they don't involve bullying the dog and using more aggression. 

Here is a great second by second analysis of what Holly was really displaying: Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer


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## Blanketback

gsdraven said:


> The abuse is pushing the dog to have to bite him in the first place.


I don't understand this, because the dog has such an incredibly low threshold. If someone was taunting a dog over and over until it lashed out, then I would completely agree. Cesar is challenging the dog, but why is this wrong?

In part of this segment Cesar says, "...you can't have this with a baby in the house." So the only real choices are either do something about the behavior or PTS.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Read that blog post that GSDRaven linked to. It breaks it down really well. I just read it - I would not call that reaction to a threat low threshold. I think that the dog stopped guarding food and was actually defending herself. Like the writer said, she didn't redirect on anyone or anything else.


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## msvette2u

Takes a rocket scientist to figure this out!






It's Me or the Dog- Food Guarding | Indoor Tips - YouTube


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## gsdraven

Blanketback said:


> I don't understand this, because the dog has such an incredibly low threshold. If someone was taunting a dog over and over until it lashed out, then I would completely agree. Cesar is challenging the dog, but why is this wrong?
> 
> In part of this segment Cesar says, "...you can't have this with a baby in the house." So the only real choices are either do something about the behavior or PTS.


He was taunting the dog. He was directly challenging her with his posture and staring. It's not like he walked past her bowl and she lunged. That was not a low threshold. 

I do agree that the dog would likely not be safe to be eating loose with a baby crawling by but there are a million ways to manage and actually rehab that behavior without putting the dog in more conflict and further damaging the relationship she has with people and food.


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## martemchik

gsdraven said:


> The abuse is pushing the dog to have to bite him in the first place. The challenging and hard staring and hitting her that provoked the bite when she was clearly displaying calming and appeasment signals the whole time.
> 
> The are better ways to treat food aggression and they don't involve bullying the dog and using more aggression.
> 
> Here is a great second by second analysis of what Holly was really displaying: Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer


So wait wait wait...any bite we will now say "the person made the dog bite! the person abused the dog to the point that the dog needed to bite him!"

If you call anything in that clip animal abuse...we'll be locking up anyone that touches a dog a little harder than what is acceptable by X person. His little hand prick? Really? Abuse? I'm not saying he's the only way to fix things...but he tries to fix things fast. Most times when the dog is aggressive like this the owner have a baby on the way and are 2 weeks away from rehoming...good luck rehoming that dog. So Cesar comes in and fixes things in a short amount of time. Most of the time those people don't have the option of doing NILIF for a year or two, and most likely don't have the ability to do so either.

I'm really surprised sometimes at how quickly people defend dogs on this forum. That dog had extremely low thresh holds. It was not a dog that a regular person could deal with without taking drastic measures. You guys realize that there are probably thousands of trainers/behaviorists in this country that would do much worse. How about the "dog boot-camp" places where you aren't allowed to see your dog for 2 weeks or know anything about the way they will be fixing your dog? I'm sure that if I watched any of you train I could find something in there that I could call abuse if I wanted to.


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## msvette2u

gsdraven said:


> He was taunting the dog. He was directly challenging her with his posture and staring. It's not like he walked past her bowl and she lunged. That was not a low threshold.
> 
> I do agree that the dog would likely not be safe to be eating loose with a baby crawling by but there are a million ways to manage and actually rehab that behavior without putting the dog in more conflict and further damaging the relationship she has with people and food.


Exactly. WHY do people feel they must touch the dog in the 1st place??
As with the folks in the Victoria vid - It's Me or the Dog- Food Guarding | Indoor Tips - YouTube

They don't need to walk up and pet the dog while it's eating!

Now a kid in the house, maybe, but teach it Victoria's way (which is guaranteed to work) and not confronting it until it bites! ALSO that's why they make baby gates!

You seriously do not have to hit and kick and beat a dog until it learns to "not guard"! Become it's leader and take control of it's resources, is that really so hard to figure out?

Dogs get put to sleep over this stuff, why is this such an issue when it's so danged easy to prevent


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## martemchik

So comparing the two videos...one dog that growls and pees and another that automatically goes for a bite when someone goes near it's food. I see how those two things are the same. Yes...the basic guarding behavior comes from the same place...but they have two totally different reactions that are on completely different levels of danger.

Also...to the OP...Cesar never told them to hit the dog with a broom...they did that themselves before he was there. So if anyone should get animal abuse charges its them. But again...lets lock up Cesar when we have horders out there with 50 dogs in a tiny trailer.


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## gsdraven

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4655581307021

Another really great video that really breaks down the signals Holly displays as it's happening.


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## msvette2u

Martem, that dog would have gone for a bite, c'mon!

Food Aggression Rehabilitation - YouTube

If you don't think so then watch this!

There is no need for that macho crap Cesar pulls. NONE. He makes me want to vomit.


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## Cassidy's Mom

martemchik said:


> So wait wait wait...any bite we will now say "the person made the dog bite! the person abused the dog to the point that the dog needed to bite him!"


No. Where did anyone actually say that?


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## GatorDog

Cesar completely set himself up for that bite and the dog ended up getting kicked because she reacted exactly how a food aggressive dog will react. The bite could have been completely avoided and if this moron really knew anything, then he would have been paying attention to her body language instead of talking to the camera about how "submissive" he made the dog. I saw it coming from a mile away and I think he's an idiot for putting that dog in that situation.

BTW- the episode ends with him keeping the dog because she couldn't be "fixed".


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## gsdraven

martemchik said:


> So wait wait wait...any bite we will now say "the person made the dog bite! the person abused the dog to the point that the dog needed to bite him!"


Hold the dramatics please. I am only saying that in that clip, yes, Cesar caused THAT particular bite despite the dog trying everything to avoid having to do so. To trainers/behaviorists all over the world, it is clear as day. 

The abuse in that clip is purely emotional. He is forcing the dog to feel uncomfortable, defensive and helpless by challenging her despite her trying to communicate that she doesn't want confrontation.


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## Blanketback

Cesar Milan and Jim Crosby are like night and day. That is a good read, but it still doesn't convince me that positive methods will work in 100% of the time. Neither does the video link, because my concerns there are that for one thing, the dog has urinated while guarding, which I've never seen before, and this makes me think that this dog has alot more going on. Also, I've used the 'add more food' technique with a guarder before, and all that happened was that she anticipated more food, and gave me 3 seconds to move my hand. If I didn't do this, she stiffened right up. Likely would have bitten me, but I didn't need to make a point for a tv show, lol.


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## msvette2u

Do you think they fixed this dog??

Food Aggression Rehabilitation - YouTube

You will never fix resource guarding by hitting and punishing and taking food away.


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## msvette2u

Blanketback said:


> Also, I've used the 'add more food' technique with a guarder before.







You did not do it right. Why keep your hand in the bowl?

The idea is to get your dog to trust you again, and work from there.

Use low value kibble and drop cooked chicken into the bowl 

Or hand feed the whole thing, or use kibble in the bowl and chicken from your hand.

BTW, we cured a dog of resource/food guarding before we ever knew there was a term, and before we saw any YOUTUBE vids. 
I hand fed her her meals daily, then included the kids. At the end of it (a few weeks of doing so) she trusted we GIVE food, we do not TAKE food, and you could do anything with her bowl or her while she was eating.

But you do not start out just walking up to your dog and cramming your hand into their bowls.


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## Blanketback

Of your first one, I could only watch 37 seconds of that clip, so I'm not sure how it ended. That was just stupid (what I saw) and with such a young puppy I don't even see the point.


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## Freestep

gsdraven said:


> I am only saying that in that clip, yes, Cesar caused THAT particular bite despite the dog trying everything to avoid having to do so..


There was a discussion about this clip on another forum I am on. The fact that to dog chose to bite *after* Cesar had backed off, and she had seemed to soften, is the thing that makes the dog dangerous. She did not "avoid" him. She could have walked away, rolled over, or simply submitted. She wasn't cornered. 99% of dogs would choose NOT to bite after the threat had been removed. This is a dangerous, unpredictable dog that should be euthanized, IMO. Whether Cesar did the "right" thing is kind of beside the point--the dog's threshold is so low that anyone could be bitten at any time--especially a child.

My theory is that the owners probably tried every training method to cure this dog of her resource guarding, including beating the heck out of her. In this scenario, she probably learned that backing down, submitting, etc. will not do her any good. HOWEVER, most dogs would learn to back off at some point, rather than escalating aggression at every turn... the dog that chooses aggression over every other option is not a dog that should be living with a family, or anybody other than a very dog-savvy expert. There are so many NICE dogs out there that DON'T have this kind of aggression... why spend resources trying to "rehabilitate" this one?


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## msvette2u

Blanketback said:


> Of your first one, I could only watch 37 seconds of that clip, so I'm not sure how it ended. That was just stupid (what I saw) and with such a young puppy I don't even see the point.


You need to continue to watch it - it will explain how they got past it and the dog is no longer a guarder. 
The puppy grew up, btw. AND is no longer a guarder. 

Perhaps this one will make more sense to you -


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> There are so many NICE dogs out there that DON'T have this kind of aggression... why spend resources trying to "rehabilitate" this one?


Wow. 
I mean why wouldn't she bite him after he hit her and made her feel so threatened??

I KNOW for a fact that dog could have been fixed immediately by the techniques used in the vids I've posted (even if folks don't want to watch them LOL)

Because I have done it and I'd do it with that dog, but unfortunately everyone's brain is stuck on "beat the dog until it submits".

Sad for the dog but even sadder people can't see how easy it can be fixed.


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## gsdraven

Freestep said:


> There was a discussion about this clip on another forum I am on. The fact that to dog chose to bite *after* Cesar had backed off, and she had seemed to soften, is the thing that makes the dog dangerous.


She layed down and was avoiding eye contact while Cesar talked to the owner and then he leaned over her and grabbed her muzzle (a very invasive and dominant gesture). He never backed off, his body posture was still stiff and forward the whole time.


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## msvette2u

gsdraven said:


> She layed down and was avoiding eye contact while Cesar talked to the owner and then he leaned over her and grabbed her muzzle (a very invasive and dominant gesture). He never backed off, his body posture was still stiff and forward the whole time.


What was Cesar's "plan" anyway? Be "the boss" until the dog finally decides he wears bigger pants??

Has nobody heard of hand-feeding a resource guarder? Or the "trade up" technique??
I would DIE to see a "training show down" where Victoria walked in and hand fed that dog kibble, and seen a transformation in front of the owners - and millions of Americans!

Imagine that dog, had Cesar done the "few bites of kibble" at a time - do you think he'd have had to smack her around and be ultimately bitten??


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> Imagine that dog, had Cesar done the "few bites of kibble" at a time - do you think he'd have had to smack her around and be ultimately bitten??


I'm sure that had already been tried. Remember that this video clip is taken out of context. This probably was the last resort after nothing else worked. 

Cesar brings out the worst in dogs because he wants to see the behavior at its worst. Better for him to receive the bite that comes than the owner or an innocent child that simply walked by the food dish and didn't know what hit him.


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## msvette2u

No we _do not_ know that has been tried. I'm willing to bet it hasn't because Cesar would not be there, had it been tried!

Nobody seems to be able to make that paradigm shift. I've seen it here on the board, that nobody can believe the "trade up" technique, or hand feeding a dog would work, so they just poo-poo it. Already in this very thread someone admitted they didn't even watch the entire vid, so why would they want to actually TRY it?


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## PatchonGSD

Nobody is perfect, not even Ceasar. ALL trainers of ALL animals have their moments when they push a little to much or make a bad call. He got bit and still did the right thing by the dog.....not many can say the same. "Abuse" charges? No, not at all. Not even close. I'm sure he learned a lesson from this and lets not forget how many dogs are still alive today because of Ceasar. A skrew up here and there does not outweigh all the great things he has done.


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## msvette2u

Patchon, what we're saying is, he went about it all ass-backwards and got bit, when none of it was necessary.

You're watching a humongous ego, and a man who is very very wrong in his techniques. 
That's all there is to it.


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## KristiM

The thing that bothers me most about CM is that he teaches your average joe pet owner to screw with their dog's food. I wonder how many people have made their dogs food aggressive by watching his show and then started repeatedly taking their dog's food away? I have dealt with food aggression in my young dog and it was dealt with by teaching him there was no need to guard his food not by teaching him "I'm going to take your stuff whenever I want and if you don't like it we are going to fight." 

For the record I would have bitten him too! And my dog certainly would have as well, which personally I'm fine with. Someone came in to my yard, and challenged my dog like that I would expect that person to get bit.


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## msvette2u

> * it was dealt with by teaching him there was no need to guard his food not by teaching him "I'm going to take your stuff whenever I want and if you don't like it we are going to fight." *


:thumbup:

That's _exactly_ why you can walk right by our dogs and not worry about them biting or guarding!


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## GSDolch

Is there anywhere online to watch the whole episode and not just a clip?


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## Stevenzachsmom

GSDolch said:


> Is there anywhere online to watch the whole episode and not just a clip?


So glad you posted that. I was just going to ask if anyone had actually seen the entire episode. I hate "just a clip."


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## Blanketback

LOL msvette2u, the reason I didn't watch the whole thing the first time was because of the way you prefaced the video, "Do you think they fixed this dog??" and then mentioned hitting...I've seen some horribly stupid things on youtube and those first 37 seconds, combined with your words, had me worried! But wow, what a transformation. That's amazing to see, and done with a clicker too! Very nice work.

I'm not trying to out myself as a bully, that's for sure, lol. But maybe it is a character weakness of mine that I believe that positive methods are the best choice, and after that fails, it's not the only choice. I'm walking a fine line here, because I'm neither condoning nor condemning CM. Not because I don't have an opinion, but because I have crossed the line from positive to compulsion when it comes to guarding. Not with the bowl of food though, lol - she eats in her crate and life is good.


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## msvette2u

I know, it didn't pop up as a preview thingie, I don't know why some do and some don't.

I have seen dogs transform with the instatement of leadership - taking control of resources, and how I know this works is, I have done it!

Working animal control I've seen some very aggressive dogs become sweet and loving in a short week of taking control of resources, by default, since the dog had it's space and food (both resources) removed from it's control, and by me taking them. They went from my worst enemy to my best friend in mere days. And they were not even my dog!

If more owners understood how that worked, we'd have fewer bites, less aggression and less of this kind of nonsense going on.

I will never believe you can bully a dog into submission. You could, maybe, but it'd be the wrong kind. 
That poor dog's fate was sealed when CM walked into her life.

If your dog IS a guarder, would you try the trade up? Or Victoria's way?

Never give your dog the bowl unless it's to put a few yummies into it. And maybe a piece or two of kibble. You'll have your dog begging you to come over to her bowl very quickly!


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## msvette2u

How about...

*CURE your dog of food guarding once and for all! This vid shows how!*

Food Aggression Rehabilitation - YouTube


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I honestly don't need a whole episode not to like where that went. I can't think of a situation where I would think that doing what he did was a good idea, no matter the build up. 

Season 9, Episode 12 is when it happened if anyone can access the full episode.


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## martemchik

And as we all know one technique always works for 100% of the dogs out there to teach them whatever you want.

Msvette can fix this dog! And any dog! From just a 3 minute clip! No history or background needed!


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## msvette2u

Wow, Martem, sarcasm much? 
I've worked in rescue and animal control 10yrs. and I learn as I go, and I found controlling resources is the best way to become your dog's leader.
I've seen dogs who were extremely aggressive come around quickly once that is done. 

That and what's been posted already.
I've done it and seen it happen time and time again, so why the smart-ass remarks?

That Lab was nothing compared to some of the dogs I've seen and dealt with.

Obviously Cesar had no success with his "methods", so what would be the harm in trying it a different way??


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## Liesje

I have not watched this video with the sound on so I'm not sure if that matters, but what I saw was beyond resource guarding. He appears to initially be successful in forcing the dog off (I do not agree or condone how this was done). But then it looks like he literally has the dog backed into a corner and the dog just went into a fight or flight response. I'm not convinced that the dog was really biting him over the food or that it was a resource guarding bite. The dog realized this guy is a bully, backed her into a corner, and wouldn't leave. Food or not she had enough.

I've never had trouble with food. My dogs eat together, heck they even share high value food (see photo) but from day one I show them that they will always get fed and that when I come near, good things happen. I alternate between picking up the bowl, moving the bowl, adding more food to the bowl. A of times we don't even use bowls, I just scatter kibble and they all have fun nosing around for it. I never withhold meals. I use food and treats for training all the time but my dogs always get meals. They have no reason to fight each other or me over food. I do the same with my fosters (except I can't assume they aren't guarding when I get them so I go slowly at first). With my own dogs it's just never come up as an issue, but probably because strong leadership in general trickles down and they have no reason to think they need to fight in order to get their share. It is always provided for them, by me.

Two adult males sharing a treat


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## martemchik

It's the clear bias in all your posts and the blanket statements of being able to fix this dog without ever meeting it. Posting a video off YouTube that will solve all guarding issues.

You guys realize Cesar meets and observes the dog for much longer than what is shown on the show and for everyone to after the fact call him abusive and wrong is quite funny. I guess it is football season and we love being arm chair quarterbacks.

I guess we're all qualified and can list off a bunch of accomplishments at will but guess what, he's got just as many. Have you ever watched him feed his pack? It's amazing, 30 dog eating at once and never even looking at another dog's bowl. But I'm sure you can all train your dogs to do the same (all 30 of them).

Should also add that most of his dogs were problem cases at some point and he didn't raise them from puppies or get them from great breeders.


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## msvette2u

> Msvette can fix this dog!


A fifth grader could fix "this dog", or any dog, with food guarding issues, and the vids I have posted show how.
We've done it in our own home and so have others.

Grabbing your dog's food isn't the way to do it though, neither is leaning over them while eating. 
Instead of making your dog less of a guarder, it makes them more intense and fearful about it all.

The dog peeing while eating speaks volumes of how little dogs like to be treated that way.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

That's what I was thinking too, Liesje. And I guess I feel that not every dog is going to go belly up when under attack. I would think that many of our dogs wouldn't when confronted by a stranger?


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> *A fifth grader could fix "this dog", or any dog, with food guarding issues, and the vids I have posted show how.
> We've done it in our own home and so have others.*
> 
> Grabbing your dog's food isn't the way to do it though, neither is leaning over them while eating.
> Instead of making your dog less of a guarder, it makes them more intense and fearful about it all.
> 
> The dog peeing while eating speaks volumes of how little dogs like to be treated that way.


I wouldn't want a 5th grader near a dog like that. A 5th grader has not the experience to know when to walk away. That's the most irresponsible thing you have said and I agree with martem. Not every method works with every dog. And you don't know what he's done behind the scene to fix the problem.


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## Liesje

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> That's what I was thinking too, Liesje. And I guess I feel that not every dog is going to go belly up when under attack. I would think that many of our dogs wouldn't when confronted by a stranger?


Yeah I mean....I'm guessing many of our GSDs would have bit CM too...some random dude coming into THEIR yard backing them into a corner and posturing like that....uh uh! That is not about food but is just plain provocation.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> Yeah I mean....I'm guessing many of our GSDs would have bit CM too...some random dude coming into his yard backing them into a corner and posturing like that....uh uh! That is not about food but is just plain provocation.


Yeah, a friend of mine did that with my old boy. He is the most docile, laid back dog you can think of. I told him to not back him into a corner but he did it anyways, it went so fast I couldn't even react and even Yukon went into fight mode. It didn't went as far as a bite but it would have if he hadn't backed down that moment and if I hadn't interfered.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

martemchik said:


> It's the clear bias in all your posts and the blanket statements of being able to fix this dog without ever meeting it. Posting a video off YouTube that will solve all guarding issues.
> 
> You guys realize Cesar meets and observes the dog for much longer than what is shown on the show and for everyone to after the fact call him abusive and wrong is quite funny. I guess it is football season and we love being arm chair quarterbacks.
> 
> I guess we're all qualified and can list off a bunch of accomplishments at will but guess what, he's got just as many. Have you ever watched him feed his pack? It's amazing, 30 dog eating at once and never even looking at another dog's bowl. But I'm sure you can all train your dogs to do the same (all 30 of them).


If you think that this is a good method to use on any dog, any time, that's for you to decide. I wouldn't care how long someone spent with my dog, someone who crouched down and snarled and went at my dog like that would get a shovel to the head. So see, I can use aversives! 

I do not feel it is a good idea to use that "technique" on any dog, any time. 

Dogs get put to sleep in shelters every day for failing the food guarding test, often using a big vinyl hand on a stick. These are dogs who most likely have been inadvertently trained by their owners to guard their food, or dogs who have never had food to guard. Anyway, they don't make it to the adoption floor in most cases. 

So for me, it is very important that my dogs and fosters are good about their food being handled.


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## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> I wouldn't want a 5th grader near a dog like that. A 5th grader has not the experience to know when to walk away. That's the most irresponsible thing you have said and I agree with martem. Not every method works with every dog. And you don't know what he's done behind the scene to fix the problem.


He hasn't fixed ANY problems, that's the problem!

And you know what, my 5th grader did help with our F(ood)A(ggressive) dog. That dog was no longer FA when we got done, and the child was perfectly safe doing so. We worked with the dog beforehand to make sure she was.

That dog on the vid has no special powers or any special needs any other dog with food issues does, why would you think that?? 
She was a PUPPY from the sounds of the video description on Cm's website.


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## Freestep

The dog was not in a corner, she could have easily moved back or away. She chose to bite instead. 

Cesar did not "create" that monster, the dog already had the food guarding issue, or he wouldn't be there. He simply brought it out and revealed it at its worst. 

As I said, I am sure other methods had already been tried. They may not be shown because they are not as dramatic or exciting to viewers, and we are talking about mainstream media here, ratings and money.

Whether you agree or disagree whether it should have been done, the fact remains that this dog was revealed to be dangerously aggressive, unpredictable, and willing to bite at any time. If she'd have bitten him when he first moved her off the food bowl, that would be one thing, but she chose to bite at a moment that he had retreated, released the pressure, and was not threatening. She was not cornered or even leashed.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Liesje said:


> Yeah I mean....I'm guessing many of our GSDs would have bit CM too...some random dude coming into THEIR yard backing them into a corner and posturing like that....uh uh! That is not about food but is just plain provocation.


Okay, that's what I thought, but I thought well, maybe I am wrong in my understanding of what our dogs are/should be.


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## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> Should also add that most of his dogs were problem cases at some point and he didn't raise them from puppies or get them from great breeders.


So are mine, Martem.
I have no clue why you're being so rude, but it's not called for, I have not been rude to you at all. 
I merely challenged people who think that "dominating" a dog like this is the entirely wrong way to go about "training it" and that Cesar failed and BADLY at this dog, too. 
His ego is so huge he can't admit it though - merely chalks the dog up to "too aggressive" to live with a kid, without even trying any other way.
And boom, the dog's gone from the loving home it had.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> I have not watched this video with the sound on so I'm not sure if that matters, but what I saw was beyond resource guarding. He appears to initially be successful in forcing the dog off (I do not agree or condone how this was done). But then it looks like he literally has the dog backed into a corner and the dog just went into a fight or flight response. I'm not convinced that the dog was really biting him over the food or that it was a resource guarding bite. The dog realized this guy is a bully, backed her into a corner, and wouldn't leave. Food or not she had enough.
> 
> I've never had trouble with food. My dogs eat together, heck they even share high value food (see photo) but from day one I show them that they will always get fed and that when I come near, good things happen. I alternate between picking up the bowl, moving the bowl, adding more food to the bowl. A of times we don't even use bowls, I just scatter kibble and they all have fun nosing around for it. I never withhold meals. I use food and treats for training all the time but my dogs always get meals. They have no reason to fight each other or me over food. I do the same with my fosters (except I can't assume they aren't guarding when I get them so I go slowly at first). With my own dogs it's just never come up as an issue, but probably because strong leadership in general trickles down and they have no reason to think they need to fight in order to get their share. It is always provided for them, by me.
> 
> Two adult males sharing a treat


Feeding the Dogs - YouTube

It is how it should be. Just leave them alone. Nala was the new dog in the pack back then but generally, I feed them all together and I expect them to be "ok". Once they are done, they can check each others bowls but not while they are eating. However, I don't interfere with their food and I know I can pick it up anytime I have to.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> , the fact remains that this dog was revealed to be dangerously aggressive, unpredictable, and willing to bite at any time. .


So was this puppy - 

Food Aggression Rehabilitation - YouTube



> This is a CLIENT of Carolina Canine Training, LLP. This dogs DOB is 11/13/2010. *By the time she was 10 weeks old she had PUNCTURED her owner on 3 separate occasions over food. One of those bites included this 10 week old puppy launching over a food bin and puncturing her owners arm. *


And yet by the end of the vid the dog is looking forward to people approaching her bowl.



> We are using a proven technique of systematic counterconditioning (her perception of someone approaching her food bowl as a threat) and desensitization (to her triggers of people being around her food bowl). At this point she is 14 weeks old and had ZERO punishment.


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## kiya

I am not a fan of CM, I admit at first when the tv show came out I thought it was cool, but after watching a few shows I changed my mind. Fortunately I have not had to deal with food agression. What I do think is that people have to realize they are watching a TV show. Reality TV is NOT really reality. It is whatever will make the show "exciting" or marketable to the general public and whatever the producers want.
CM is not stupid, he knew that dog was going to bite him as I am sure everyone of us saw it coming. That was what they wanted to show. Every episode cant be a 100% perfect ending.


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## GSDolch

No one is saying that those methods don't work msv, I think what is being said is that they don't work for _every_ dog out there. 

I find it irresponsible of any trainer to apply a one size fits all training method for every dog out there. /shrugs


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## Mrs.K

GSDolch said:


> No one is saying that those methods don't work msv, I think what is being said is that they don't work for _every_ dog out there.
> 
> I find it irresponsible of any trainer to apply a one size fits all training method for every dog out there. /shrugs


Ditto. A good trainer uses the method that fits the dog and not the other way around. You have got to have many different tools in your box.


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## martemchik

I'm just stating the facts...I'm doing to your training techniques what you're doing to Cesar's but I'm being rude because you're here to defend yourself and he isn't? So we can criticize people not on this board but not anyone on it?

It's great that you take in problem dogs and aren't afraid to let them live with your children. I would never trust a dog like that lab around children. Not even after years of rehab. And I know the response to that would be to teach kids how to act around dogs, but you can teach YOUR kids all you want, it doesn't mean that one of their friends will never make a mistake and then wham! there goes a hand in the dog's mouth.

For us to crucify someone that has done a lot of good just because you don't agree with his methods is ridiculous. And oh no he couldn't figure it out so he took the dog in to his pack and gave the family another dog! What an evil person he is! Call AC!!! You know what most behaviorists suggest once they can't figure out how to fix a dog? I'll give you a hint it doesn't have anything to do with trading dogs. He gave one dog a forever home with a family and gave another dog a much safer situation where he would continue working with it. He didn't put it on the shoulders of a family that clearly couldn't deal with this issue.


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## Liesje

My thing with this food aggression/resource stuff is that most of times, I think the FA is just a symptom of a larger problem. I'm just speaking in general here, not commenting on the CM video. I had someone ask me about this and she has two large, powerful dogs (Malamutes). The more we talked about it, the more it was clear to me that her problem was not just that one Mal was food aggressive but that her dogs lacked structure, discipline, consistency. She never really trained them and they basically treated the family like doormats so the food guarding was just the next logical step. We could have address the food guarding specifically but I knew it would not have helped in the larger picture and advised her to work with someone that could help her get control of her dogs and her household in general.

A lot of this bickering in this thread is kind of irrelevant. Most of us value training and structure and discipline and setting clear expectations for our dogs which is why we don't really see these problems. I've never dealt with food aggression with my dogs not because we worked hard at that but because they have enough structure in their lives already stuff like that just doesn't happen. That is where these families on CM's show are failing their dogs.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> My thing with this food aggression/resource stuff is that most of times, I think the FA is just a symptom of a larger problem. I'm just speaking in general here, not commenting on the CM video. I had someone ask me about this and she has two large, powerful dogs (Malamutes). The more we talked about it, the more it was clear to me that her problem was not just that one Mal was food aggressive but that her dogs lacked structure, discipline, consistency. She never really trained them and they basically treated the family like doormats so the food guarding was just the next logical step. We could have address the food guarding specifically but I knew it would not have helped in the larger picture and advised her to work with someone that could help her get control of her dogs and her household in general.
> 
> A lot of this bickering in this thread is kind of irrelevant. Most of us value training and structure and discipline and setting clear expectations for our dogs which is why we don't really see these problems. I've never dealt with food aggression with my dogs not because we worked hard at that but because they have enough structure in their lives already stuff like that just doesn't happen. That is where these families on CM's show are failing their dogs.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
I don't think anyone could have said it better.


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## msvette2u

I think you're entirely correct. It's a lifestyle thing, not just a FOOD thing.
These dogs are treated like humans with fur. Poor widdle puppy wuppy, then boom, the dog bites because you wanted to touch it while it was eating. 
Applying human standards and morals to dogs is irresponsible and dangerous.

I think MIND GAMES is the total approach to how dogs live with us. You do not see FA problems when you do MIND GAMES sort of living with your dog.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong




Liesje said:


> My thing with this food aggression/resource stuff is that most of times, I think the FA is just a symptom of a larger problem. I'm just speaking in general here, not commenting on the CM video. I had someone ask me about this and she has two large, powerful dogs (Malamutes). The more we talked about it, the more it was clear to me that her problem was not just that one Mal was food aggressive but that her dogs lacked structure, discipline, consistency. She never really trained them and they basically treated the family like doormats so the food guarding was just the next logical step. We could have address the food guarding specifically but I knew it would not have helped in the larger picture and advised her to work with someone that could help her get control of her dogs and her household in general.
> 
> A lot of this bickering in this thread is kind of irrelevant. Most of us value training and structure and discipline and setting clear expectations for our dogs which is why we don't really see these problems. I've never dealt with food aggression with my dogs not because we worked hard at that but because they have enough structure in their lives already stuff like that just doesn't happen. That is where these families on CM's show are failing their dogs.


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## Syaoransbear

Totally abusive. Whenever a dog bites me and starts ripping my hand apart I always ignore it and then click and treat when they stop.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> I think you're entirely correct. It's a lifestyle thing, not just a FOOD thing.
> These dogs are treated like humans with fur. Poor widdle puppy wuppy, then boom, the dog bites because you wanted to touch it while it was eating.
> Applying human standards and morals to dogs is irresponsible and dangerous.
> 
> I think MIND GAMES is the total approach to how dogs live with us. You do not see FA problems when you do MIND GAMES sort of living with your dog.
> 
> Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong


That's where I always agreed with you on. You can't put human standards on a dog, ever. A dog is a dog is a dog is a dog and this is another endless discussion about something that is so darn important and has been discussed for ages, already. 
People just don't learn. Just because it's a lab doesn't mean they don't need exercise. People think it's a friendly family dog but these dogs are working dogs, just as much as GSD's and some Labs have an insane drive and want to be worked just as much as our dogs. 
The idea of the fat couch potato lab doesn't apply to all of them. 
The same goes for other breeds. If you really want a couch potato dog, than do your research and go with a low energy breed that is bred to do nothing else but look good on your couch. There have been several breeds created just for that. To be another decoration ornament in your home. 

Structure is so important. I admit, I don't stimulate my dogs on a daily basis. I don't walk them daily, I don't hike them daily as I used to but they have structure. It's those little things that gives them structure and we do train regularly. They get one on one sessions where I am the center of the universe and if a dog has a balanced lifestyle they can easily go without exercise or stimuli for a week. 

Generally I don't like comparison to humans but it's just like us. If we don't have structure and discipline we get thrown out of balance and look what it does to Teenagers if they have no structure at all or too much discipline where they become the rebels. 

A balanced lifestyle is important no matter what race or breed.


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## msvette2u

And this is why I say that Lab was freaking FINE.
Nothing wrong with her, but humans did it to her. Either just by shoving their hands in her food bowl or taking it away, but probably all the above, too.

We did take back an 11mo. old lab PUP that was nipping and "doing it's own thing" and I consulted at length with our vet about euth. for the pup. She said this dog is fine, Labs are people pleasers.
Lack of structure did that to the dog. 

His next home had a firm leader and expectations, guidelines and an NILIF type of approach to life.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> And this is why I say that Lab was freaking FINE.
> Nothing wrong with her, but humans did it to her. Either just by shoving their hands in her food bowl or taking it away, but probably all the above, too.


You don't know that without knowing the history of the dog. We can assume that that is the case but you don't know for sure unless you have met that dog and their family personally and made your own picture.


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## msvette2u

That's true enough - but I know dogs (in general) and I'm willing to bet she was fine - just understructured and unguided.

To me, food "aggression" is a non-issue, it truly is.
It is so simple to work with I don't even blink when I hear it, because (on the other hand) it's so misunderstood, too.


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## Freestep

Liesje said:


> My thing with this food aggression/resource stuff is that most of times, I think the FA is just a symptom of a larger problem.


Yes, and most of the time, these problems do not escalate when the dog is given proper structure, training, etc.--but many families who own dogs are not savvy enough to do that. To wit:



> Most of us value training and structure and discipline and setting clear expectations for our dogs which is why we don't really see these problems. I've never dealt with food aggression with my dogs not because we worked hard at that but because they have enough structure in their lives already stuff like that just doesn't happen. That is where these families on CM's show are failing their dogs.


Many if not most of the families shown on the TV show are painfully clueless about dog behavior in general and their dog's behavior in particular. While the Lab's food guarding could have been addressed early on, and possibly solved at a young age, this family probably ignored it or didn't recognize it when the dog was a young pup. When it escalated to a point where the family couldn't ignore it any longer, it had already become ingrained (and possibly, unwittingly reinforced). 

It's quite possible that the family made it worse when they did attempt to address it. I'm only speculating, but guessing by the dog's behavior, I think they tried to beat it out of her at some point. This would explain why the dog chose to bite at the moment she did; even though not cornered to force the "fight or flight" decision, she would eventually learn that submission and avoidance does her no good, if the owners continued to punish her after she backed down. Effectively, putting her into a constant fight or flight mode whenever humans are near her food.

If the owner had STARTED when she was a baby, with handfeeding a kibble at a time, adding food to the bowl as she was eating, etc., the whole issue might have been avoided. Or it may not have. I am sure it was tried at some point, but if it was tried after applying unfair and misapplied punishment, the damage was already done and the dog may have been too aggressive to even get near.

The fact remains that the dog chose aggression to solve her problems, and not all dogs do that. Especially with a Lab--a breed that is supposed to be soft-mouthed and gentle--the owners would not expect aggression and were not prepared to deal with it. 

I'm guessing that, while the owners almost certainly made the problem worse, the dog's native temperament is iffy. Most likely due to poor breeding.


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## msvette2u

She was a rescue.
This is why I slap 'em in a crate for a two week shut down. It's so CRUEL though 
(said tongue in cheek)
They learn from the git-go who is, without a doubt, the leader, because the leader controls the resources.
Resources are space, food, treats, toys, etc.

Then issues never crop up like this, if they do, they are easily addressed by stepping up "MIND GAMES".


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## Cassidy's Mom

GatorDog said:


> Cesar completely set himself up for that bite and the dog ended up getting kicked because she reacted exactly how a food aggressive dog will react. The bite could have been completely avoided and if this moron really knew anything, then he would have been paying attention to her body language instead of talking to the camera about how "submissive" he made the dog. I saw it coming from a mile away and I think he's an idiot for putting that dog in that situation.





gsdraven said:


> Hold the dramatics please. I am only saying that in that clip, yes, Cesar caused THAT particular bite despite the dog trying everything to avoid having to do so. To trainers/behaviorists all over the world, it is clear as day.
> 
> The abuse in that clip is purely emotional. He is forcing the dog to feel uncomfortable, defensive and helpless by challenging her despite her trying to communicate that she doesn't want confrontation.





Liesje said:


> I have not watched this video with the sound on so I'm not sure if that matters, but what I saw was beyond resource guarding. He appears to initially be successful in forcing the dog off (I do not agree or condone how this was done). But then it looks like he literally has the dog backed into a corner and the dog just went into a fight or flight response. I'm not convinced that the dog was really biting him over the food or that it was a resource guarding bite. The dog realized this guy is a bully, backed her into a corner, and wouldn't leave. Food or not she had enough.


THAT is what people are saying, martemchik, not that an_y bite we will now say "the person made the dog bite! the person abused the dog to the point that the dog needed to bite him!"
_
The dog was provoked into a predictable reaction, and predictably, it reacted. There are simple ways to prevent resource guarding, and much better ways to deal with it after the fact if you missed the boat on that initial training. 



Liesje said:


> A lot of this bickering in this thread is kind of irrelevant. Most of us value training and structure and discipline and setting clear expectations for our dogs which is why we don't really see these problems. I've never dealt with food aggression with my dogs not because we worked hard at that but because they have enough structure in their lives already stuff like that just doesn't happen. That is where these families on CM's show are failing their dogs.


Absolutely. I've never had a problem with it either.


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## sashadog

msvette2u said:


> That's true enough - but I know dogs (in general) and I'm willing to bet she was fine - just understructured and unguided.
> 
> To me, food "aggression" is a non-issue, it truly is.
> It is so simple to work with I don't even blink when I hear it, because (on the other hand) it's so misunderstood, too.


I dunno... I used to take care of a Chesapeake retriever that was extremely food aggressive and I believe that she simply had a screw loose. They tried everything possible, including trading up and hand feeding but without fail as soon as they pulled out the food she would start snarling at them from across the room. And she was a hunting and agility dog that without food around, was a very sweet, obedient dog that was her owners constant companion. But if you would have seen them with her at feeding time you would've thought that they were the worst, most unstructured owners of all time.

Sometimes we just don't know the whole story and it is possible for dogs to just have weird issues. I'm not supporting or condemning CM but I agree with the comment someone made earlier, I believe it was Freestep, that it's easy for us to sit on our couch and pass heavy judgment without truly knowing the whole story. Not every dog issue is the result of bad owners...


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## Cassidy's Mom

Syaoransbear said:


> Totally abusive. Whenever a dog bites me and starts ripping my hand apart I always ignore it and then click and treat when they stop.


Nobody is suggesting that either, so your sarcasm is misplaced.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> She was a rescue.
> This is why I slap 'em in a crate for a two week shut down. It's so CRUEL though
> (said tongue in cheek)
> They learn from the git-go who is, without a doubt, the leader, because the leader controls the resources.
> Resources are space, food, treats, toys, etc.
> 
> Then issues never crop up like this, if they do, they are easily addressed by stepping up "MIND GAMES".


As much as I hate crating, the shut down is nothing new to me and it makes a lot of sense. People have to get be beyond the "dog is crated for two weeks" aspect and see the bigger picture where you become the center of the universe. Without you, there is no food, water, getting out of the crate. 
The longterm goal is to make the dog dependable on you. You don't necessarily eed a crate for that. It could be a room, kennel, anything that helps to seclude the dog. However, a crate makes it easier to handle the dog because they can't avoid you and it's easier to get out of the "danger zone" if XXXX hits the fan.


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## LuvShepherds

I read the replies here before watching the video, so I was prepared to see Cesar mistreating a dog. The video wasn't at all what you had prepared me for. It's 3 minutes out of a day or two spent with the dog and the family. He was treating for food guarding, so of course he had to set up a guarding situation. Whether the owners ruined the dog or she's hardwired to act that way (and we don't know from that video, so we can't assume anything) the dog is unpredictable and should be given up to a different type of home with an owner who knows how to manage an unpredictable dog.

I have taken food from my rescue dogs' bowls from day 1. If I can't take food from a dish or from their mouths, I wouldn't keep a dog. It's a deal breaker for me. However, if they are eating, I don't bother them either. And I doubt he would if he wasn't working on that one issue. 

Would those of you who hate him rather see a dog put down because no one can handle her? The dog sliced his hand open and he still continued to work with her until the pain got to be too much. 

Before criticizing Cesar, spend years working with dogs who are unpredictable, mistrained, mistreated by clueless owners, and only then say your methods work better. I wasn't going to reply here, because I know from reading this board that most people here prefer reward methods to anything else. In a perfect world, all dogs should be trained with kind and gentle methods, but that doesn't work with all dogs. One of my rescues is FA and I've tried everything. I don't get as extreme as Cesar, but I have used strong words and a strong voice when my dog was acting up. I also use a training collar, and have had a few situations where I've had to use the collar for corrections, although I prefer to use my voice. But if it's a situation where I have to think quickly to avert a bite, I'd rather give one sharp tug/release and a sharp command to my dog to back down than hold out a treat hoping to distract him. I've tried the treat method and it doesn't work, in fact, made it worse. Now, I mainly try to avoid those types of situations, and manage that dog, who is elderly and doesn't need the stress. Had my dog been given Cesar type training as a younger dog, before we got him, we might not have the problems now that we do have with him.


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## PatchonGSD

LuvShepherds said:


> I read the replies here before watching the video, so I was prepared to see Cesar mistreating a dog. The video wasn't at all what you had prepared me for. It's 3 minutes out of a day or two spent with the dog and the family. He was treating for food guarding, so of course he had to set up a guarding situation. Whether the owners ruined the dog or she's hardwired to act that way (and we don't know from that video, so we can't assume anything) the dog is unpredictable and should be given up to a different type of home with an owner who knows how to manage an unpredictable dog.
> 
> I have taken food from my rescue dogs' bowls from day 1. If I can't take food from a dish or from their mouths, I wouldn't keep a dog. It's a deal breaker for me. However, if they are eating, I don't bother them either. And I doubt he would if he wasn't working on that one issue.
> 
> Would those of you who hate him rather see a dog put down because no one can handle her? The dog sliced his hand open and he still continued to work with her until the pain got to be too much.
> 
> Before criticizing Cesar, spend years working with dogs who are unpredictable, mistrained, mistreated by clueless owners, and only then say your methods work better. I wasn't going to reply here, because I know from reading this board that most people here prefer reward methods to anything else. In a perfect world, all dogs should be trained with kind and gentle methods, but that doesn't work with all dogs. One of my rescues is FA and I've tried everything. I don't get as extreme as Cesar, but I have used strong words and a strong voice when my dog was acting up. I also use a training collar, and have had a few situations where I've had to use the collar for corrections, although I prefer to use my voice. But if it's a situation where I have to think quickly to avert a bite, I'd rather give one sharp tug/release and a sharp command to my dog to back down than hold out a treat hoping to distract him. I've tried the treat method and it doesn't work, in fact, made it worse. Now, I mainly try to avoid those types of situations, and manage that dog, who is elderly and doesn't need the stress. Had my dog been given Cesar type training as a younger dog, before we got him, we might not have the problems now that we do have with him.


Great Post!

This is what I wanted to say, but I just couldn't get it into words.


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## msvette2u

> Before criticizing Cesar, *spend years working with dogs who are unpredictable, mistrained, mistreated by clueless owners,* and only then say your methods work better.


That's what I've done...for 10yrs. now...and yes my methods are pretty "tried and true" but the issue is other people.
When you realize you're the only one who may be able to understand and own responsibly, a certain dog, then it's time is still up because I have no room for all those dogs.


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## Liesje

LuvShepherds said:


> I If I can't take food from a dish or from their mouths, I wouldn't keep a dog. It's a deal breaker for me.


I agree, hence why I'm not commenting on what I would do with this dog. 1) I wouldn't let my dog get to this point and 2) I'm not willing to take in a dog that already behaves like this. I have some issues with how CM works in general that also apply to this instance but hey if he cures these people and dogs so be it, who am I to criticize. I manage my dogs how I see fit and that works for me but I'm not in the business of dealing with dogs that will bite me over food or toys or just trying to get my attention. I don't agree with how he continued to pressure the dog after he already made his point, resulting in the bite, but I'm not saying it's abuse either. If it's abuse then the owners are to blame.


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## Syaoransbear

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Nobody is suggesting that either, so your sarcasm is misplaced.


Then what exactly is abusive? Poorly handling a situation? Intentionally hurting your dog is abusive, not making a mistake and being stupid.


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## LuvShepherds

msvette2u said:


> When you realize you're the only one who may be able to understand and own responsibly, a certain dog, then it's time is still up because I have no room for all those dogs.


I own a dog like that. A responsible behaviorist who worked with us for years on this dog said most people would have given him back or put him down. So, I also speak from experience. It wasn't one I wanted, but we took him in because he was in danger of losing his life. It turned out he thrived with us, but it's never once been easy as he's unpredictable with people outside my family.


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## LuvShepherds

Liesje said:


> I don't agree with how he continued to pressure the dog after he already made his point, resulting in the bite, but I'm not saying it's abuse either. If it's abuse then the owners are to blame.


I could be reading something else into it, but I thought he was trying to show that when he could get the dog to back down, he solved the problem. It was a mistake, he didn't teach the dog anything.


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## msvette2u

LuvShepherds said:


> I own a dog like that. A responsible behaviorist who worked with us for years on this dog said most people would have given him back or put him down. So, I also speak from experience. It wasn't one I wanted, but we took him in because he was in danger of losing his life. It turned out he thrived with us, but it's never once been easy as he's unpredictable with people outside my family.


And we have had dogs like this, but we have a rescue and our home is full of our own dogs, so the ones that tend to stay have no behavior issues, necessarily, but are physically impaired or so old nobody else wants them.



> I thought he was trying to show that when he could get the dog to back down, he solved the problem. It was a mistake, he didn't teach the dog anything.


LOL that was pretty much the size of it...he called it "relaxation" when most trainers could see another bite looming in there-and even that is not right, I'd say 'stress' looming, the bite did not have to happen. Instead of making her feel less threatened, he then again made more threatening moves towards her...and said "I didn't see that one coming!"


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## Jax08

I"m not seeing abuse...stupidity, yes...a dog whose elevator may not go all the way to the top due to genetics and environment, possibly...but I"m not seeing abuse. IMO, abuse would have been if he had taken a 2x4 to that dog but I can't see where there is actually abuse.


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## msvette2u

I think someone pointed it out along the way, the hit and kick aren't necessarily abuse, it's what led up to those things being "necessary" that are abusive, it's the mental anguish that dog is going through that people considered abusive, but correct me if I am wrong.
A dog like that is mentally tortured.
Every fiber of her being was saying "please don't do this", and yet she was being pushed to and beyond her "bite threshold".

If someone has a dog who hasn't bitten them, don't be mistaken..._every_ dog has a bite threshold. 
You just have not found it yet.

Most dogs, including this one, do not _want_ to bite, they give off signals that they are uncomfortable and that Lab was giving billions of them off.
Unless something is seriously wrong, dogs do give off signals, that often get ignored and overlooked.

Granted, the time between the signals and signs a dog is stressed to the actual bite occurring may be very short, but usually they are loud and clear if one is paying attention.


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## PatchonGSD

You would think he poked her with a stick until she bit him and then he pulled out his 9 mil and shot her......********....he made a mistake by pushing her to far and he paid the price. The dog was still taken care of. Most people, including some of us on this board would have had her PTS. 

Msvette2u- I'm just curious since you seem to have it out for Ceasar, does this one incident deduct from all the wonderful rehabilitation's that Ceasar has done?
Have you, in your 10 years of experience never made a mistake? If and when you do make a mistake, if you havent already, will that automatically make all your previous successes and techniques wrong and irrelevant or abusive??

****ADMIN Note: please watch how you express yourself.****


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## Mrs.K

PatchonGSD said:


> You would think he poked her with a stick until she bit him and then he pulled out his 9 mil and shot her......***comment removed by ADMIN**....he made a mistake by pushing her to far and he paid the price. The dog was still taken care of. Most people, including some of us on this board would have had her PTS.
> 
> Msvette2u- I'm just curious since you seem to have it out for Ceasar, does this one incident deduct from all the wonderful rehabilitation's that Ceasar has done?
> Have you, in your 10 years of experience never made a mistake? If and when you do make a mistake, if you havent already, will that automatically make all your previous successes and techniques wrong and irrelevant or abusive??


Him saying " I didn't see that one coming" actually makes him human and I while I don't agree with all his methods I have tons of respect for him that he puts himself into the place for scrutiny from all those internet experts. You don't get to see many trainers that would put stuff online where they messed up and then admitting that they didn't see that coming as in "Hey, I effed up."


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## PatchonGSD

Mrs.K said:


> Him saying " I didn't see that one coming" actually makes him human and I while I don't agree with all his methods I have tons of respect for him that he puts himself into the place for scrutiny from all those internet experts. *You don't get to see many trainers that would put stuff online where they messed up and then admitting that they didn't see that coming as in "Hey, I effed up."*


Exactly.


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## msvette2u

Patchon, I'm going to ignore the argumentative tone of your post, and ask you this...your dog growled at you when you went to move him off a couch.

Would you have made him better or worse at that point by ignoring the growl and getting in his face about not wanting to move?? 

We gave you great advice in the form of Mind Games, and you followed them and guess what, your dog improved!
(this is why we say "two week shut down", btw, so the couch incident would never have occurred in the 1st place).

I'm saying Cesar's approach is completely backwards and the way he handled this Lab is a case in point. 
And FTR I don't "have it out" for anyone - however I will tell people how he's wrong, because they are doing this crap at home and getting themselves bitten and dogs are failing all over because if his techniques. To me, that is a problem, and an easily solved one.
What's even more funny...in a sad way...is that it states right on the beginning of his shows (or the few I've seen) to "not do these things at home" yet billions of people are doing just that.


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## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> Patchon, I'm going to ignore the argumentative tone of your post, and ask you this...your dog growled at you when you went to move him off a couch.
> 
> Would you have made him better or worse at that point by ignoring the growl and getting in his face about not wanting to move??
> 
> We gave you great advice in the form of Mind Games, and you followed them and guess what, your dog improved!
> (this is why we say "two week shut down", btw, so the couch incident would never have occurred in the 1st place).
> 
> I'm saying Cesar's approach is completely backwards and the way he handled this Lab is a case in point.
> And FTR I don't "have it out" for anyone - however I will tell people how he's wrong, because they are doing this crap at home and getting themselves bitten and dogs are failing all over because if his techniques. To me, that is a problem, and an easily solved one.
> What's even more funny...in a sad way...is that it states right on the beginning of his shows (or the few I've seen) to "not do these things at home" yet billions of people are doing just that.


How about you put up a video where you approach a dog of the same caliber with your method. That way we can actually see it.


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## GSDolch

msvette2u said:


> What's even more funny...in a sad way...is that it states right on the beginning of his shows (or the few I've seen) to "not do these things at home" yet billions of people are doing just that.



This doesn't make it HIS fault, he's always been very upfront about NOT doing what he does and to contact a trainer or behaviorist if there is a problem. 

I also think that maybe you are playing it up some, so far I have yet to meet anyone that does his methods. Usually I get "oh isn't he that guy on TV?" if he comes up in convo.

I think he's more popular with the people who want to argue about him than regular joe smoe. (not that there aren't average pet owners out there who don't try to be like him.)


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## msvette2u

Nothing I do is magic. I've posted at least 2 YOUTUBE vids that show the methods we use here, as opposed to getting all physical and violent with dogs.

I hear "resource guarder" and we don't even let those things occur (even with known guarders) because we 1) start the two week shut down 2) become that dog's "universe" and 3) by doing those things we don't see conflicts and issues because from the moment they arrive, they are treated much differently than they have been in the past, there are no "show downs" and really, it is that much a non-issue.

I'd have to go out and find a dog having issues in _their_ home, to replicate that scenario, because it is simply not an issue here.
By the time they get here, people have muscled and scolded and smacked them or however they dealt with it, obviously it did not work so why would I continue that type treatment of the dog??



> I also think that maybe you are playing it up some, so far I have yet to meet anyone that does his methods.


LOL then come spend a day or three in rescue with me! Seriously! If it's not the person giving the dog up, it's the adopting family!


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## GSDolch

msvette2u said:


> LOL then come spend a day or three in rescue with me! Seriously! If it's not the person giving the dog up, it's the adopting family!



Uh, that has what exactly to do with "billions" (which I am sure you mean a lot or most and not actually that) of people using his methods and people who give u their dogs?

I don't think the two are interchangeable really. People give up dogs for all sorts of reasons, not all of which, even have anything to DO with CM, so I am confused.


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## Olivers mama

Halloween's approaching - can I say 'witch' then?:laugh:


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## PatchonGSD

Msvette2u- My post was not argumentative at all. I asked honest questions that you should be able to answer given your stance. 



> Msvette2u- I'm just curious since you seem to have it out for Ceasar, does this one incident deduct from all the wonderful rehabilitation's that Ceasar has done?
> Have you, in your 10 years of experience never made a mistake? If and when you do make a mistake, if you havent already, will that automatically make all your previous successes and techniques wrong and irrelevant or abusive??


Balen has never growled at me. Please reference the post where I said that and yes, the mind games were great- but I'm lost on your comparison to my dog who didnt want to get off the couch and this lab? 

Can you please explain how it is Caesars fault that people are trying to use his techniques and screw it up?


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## msvette2u

> I am confused.


I mean I hear it all the time. 
Even from folks who keep their dogs 
Vet clinics, pet stores, anywhere owners congregate, someone pipes up with "We do what Cesar does!"


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## Nikitta

I think Victoria had the best solution


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## msvette2u

PatchonGSD said:


> Balen has never growled at me. Please reference the post where I said that and yes, the mind games were great- but I'm lost on your comparison to my dog who didnt want to get off the couch and this lab?


I don't remember if he growled or just got stiff and didn't want to get off the couch, whichever it was, you had an issue and we told you to step up Mind Games...but either way, Mind Games would have helped this lab to not even _go there_ w/food aggression. 
Mind Games incorporates "no more kibble from heaven", and hand feeding which in turn relay to the dog there is nothing to guard because DOG OWNS NOTHING.

Again, it's a complete way of life, not just a snapshot, you can't do hand feeding without incorporating the rest of it, where dog owns no beds or space on the floor, etc.

If they guard it, they lose it, no matter what it is, space, food, treat, toy, bed, whatever it is.



Nikitta said:


> I think Victoria had the best solution


:thumbup: 

And with that - I'm done here, it is getting repetitive.
The folks who wanted to, got something out of it already.


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## GSDolch

Olivers mama said:


> Halloween's approaching - can I say 'witch' then?:laugh:



Only as long as its followed by a cackle afterwards....lol

msv~

I see what you mean now, and while I have no doubt that you in your area may here that, I still don't think its something that can be used as a sweeping argument. For your area is may work, that doesn't mean its going to work in other areas all over though. /shrugs


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## martemchik

I just want to point this out...people were criticizing Cesar because he was "emotionally" abusing the dog. The OP wants charges pressed against him. So what's the difference between how he "emotionally" abused the dog and mind games or the two week shutdown? So because the "2 week shutdown" is an accepted form of dealing with a new dog...it's not abusive...even though you are clearly doing something that someone without knowledge would call extremely abusive. Why is it okay for you to lock a dog in a kennel for two weeks and its not okay for that puppy mill down the road to do the same thing?

Once you look at the actual actions we are discussing...you see all the faults even with the most acceptable of methods.


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## KristiM

I think Cesar got exactly what he deserved in this scenario no need to lay charges. He challenged the dog and lost. Yup what he did was unnecessary and this is one of those things that kinda makes me smile because he payed for the way he acted to that dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom

martemchik said:


> So what's the difference between how he "emotionally" abused the dog and mind games or the two week shutdown? So because the "2 week shutdown" is an accepted form of dealing with a new dog...it's not abusive...even though you are clearly doing something that someone without knowledge would call extremely abusive. Why is it okay for you to lock a dog in a kennel for two weeks and its not okay for that puppy mill down the road to do the same thing?


The 2 week shutdown is not about locking a dog into a kennel for two weeks. The dog is EITHER in a crate, OR leashed to you, OR tethered to something at all times. They are not allowed to roam around freely and unsupervised, that's all. 

How on earth could anyone compare that to a puppy mill, where dogs literally live their entire lives in a crate, or think that it's "extremely abusive"? :thinking: It's basically what many people do with a brand new puppy who isn't housebroken or trustworthy enough not to chew everything in sight.


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## Draugr

Cesar has done some good things and I do like some of his methods. More his philosophy than his methods, though. The walk, being confident, it's the owner not the dog, etc.

In this case, however, he got exactly what he was asking for. And the method he is using to "rehabilitate" this dog is only teaching the dog to have WORSE food aggression.

The dog is just learning that yes, there ARE things to fear when people get near your food. So now the dog is in a worse place than she was before Cesar showed up. Food aggression can be solved easily without challenging the dog and shutting them down into a state of learned helplessness...where they still may wind up striking back some day, as we saw here.

Just feed the dog exclusively from your hands only. That's the only source of food. Then they learn to associate something good (eating) with the presence of a human (which has previously been associated with something bad - like being hit with broomsticks or being forced into an unnecessary showdown).

As for charging him with abuse, though, that's beyond ridiculous. At least he owned up to his mistakes and didn't try to have the dog PTS, or recommend doing so. A lot of people would have gone off on her after being bit. He kept his cool.


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## JakodaCD OA

I don't see anyone saying they watched the entire episode with this dog/Ceasar?

Well I did..I am not here to say what Ceasar did was right/wrong. Here's the facts, the dog was bought as a puppy out of a parking lot. The owners said when she hit about 5-6 months old, she became VERY food aggressive. Clips showed the dog MUCH worse than she was w/Ceasar. Had bitten the man and the wife. It showed the man, telling her to sit, putting the bowl down, releasing her (she had VERY good obedience), and then he'd start messing with her bowl with BROOM, she would attack the broom, and she was quite nasty about it. He admitted he used the broom ALOT and messed with her food. Which in my mind made things MUCH worse.

Now, when there was no food involved, that dog was obedient, loved EVERYONE it met, was fine with otherdogs, LOVED their 3 year old kid. You would look at this dog and think, "GOSH what a nice dog!". Food involved all bets were off.

After the Ceasar incident, they were crating her ALOT, and said she was even worse, (showed clips of her going ballistic in a crate biting wire etc).. He took her. His concern and the concern of the owners was, what if the kid had a piece of food around the dog? A very legitimate concern.

I am not condoning Ceasar's methods, but that dog was going to do some serious damage to someone if something wasn't done. In the training center clips, she had a few minor setbacks, and they showed them, she was pretty submissive with his pack of dogs, but did eventually get integrated into his pack. 

In the end, he told them he was keeping her because tho she was 'better', she could never fully be trusted especially with a kid around. 

While I'm not a big fan of Ceasar's, hey he could have just cut out the bad stuff and no one would be the wiser..Shows he's human and messes up as well.

You can bash his methods all you want, but this dog was some freakin wacked out when it came to food, I doubt anyone else would have taken her on or would even 'think" about it. I know I wouldn't.

I would LOVE to see a video with a dog this NASTY rehabbed by someone else. (remember this one ended up being managed, but never 'cured')..


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## LuvShepherds

Thank you for the background Jackoda. Our FA dog has never once gone after a family member once he was introduced. This dog wasn't right for the family, who had no idea what they were doing and made mistakes, like we all do at times. No one is perfect. However, with a baby in the house, they should have been advised to rehome her and not gone through any more agony.

My dogs share all the time, however, one night my older dog was eating his dinner and my youngest decided she wanted a bite after hers was gone. He went after her, screeching, snapping. He used bite inhibition and didn't hurt her at all, just scared her off. I called him off and then I physically pulled her away so she was out of his reach and he went back to eating. She had the sense to listen to both of us and leave him alone until he was done. The minute he finished, I got out some pieces of cheese called both dogs a few feet away from his dish, made them Sit/Stay/Wait and then gave them both permission to get the cheese at the same time. Since he knew it was a treat, he let her go first (neither is an Alpha, but she's got a stronger personality with dogs than he does). When half the cheese was gone, I called her away and led him to the dish to finish it. We haven't had any problem with guarding or food aggression at all. It was just that one time when he'd had enough and let her have it. My impression, though, was that even if it was a one-time thing, I couldn't let it go or it might happen again when I wasn't around to stop it. She teases him a lot, and I reinforced his behavior with her to let her know that it's not alright. The point of explaining this is that you have to know what a dog is telling you and adjust the methods to the dog. If she hadn't backed off, she would have been crated. If he had gone for all the cheese and tried to discipline her again, he would have been moved to another room and not received a treat at all. When it's not a meal, I expect them to share, they know that, and they do.


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## PatchonGSD

Yes, I watched it when it aired, but I could not find any links to the whole episode online....


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## sparra

NO WAY that dog would be living in my house with my kids....she would be out on her ear!!!


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## Jax08

Diane - Is there a link to the whole episode?

Personally, I don't agree with CM's methods for my dogs but I think we need to keep in mind that he takes on cases that the next step is a needle. If he can rehab these dogs or incorporate them into his pack, more power to him.


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## Muskeg

What struck me the most was that when the dog was biting- she was BITING. I mean, bearing down, shaking, etc. And she wasn't letting go easily. 

Very strange for a lab with a genetically predisposed 'soft' mouth for retrieving game.

This dog had a screw loose somewhere. Cesar was stupid in his initial approach, but the dog truly had issues. Owner didn't help, for sure, but this was a scary dog. The kind of dog that could kill a child- not nip or scar but kill. The opposite of a dog with a 'clear head' when in drive. This dog. Scary.


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## LARHAGE

I agree with Jax, Cesar is called to help with dogs that are on their last chance, he gets dogs that no one else would most likely want to deal with, does his techniques work on every dog? Of course not, neither do anyone else's , he could have easily edited this attack out of the episode and no one would be any the wiser, but by leaving it in he showed that 1.) He is human like all of us, and more importantly that dogs are animals and therefore unpredictable, simple as that. Would I let Cesar help me with a difficult dog? Absolutely, I find him to be a very knowledgable dog lover and his love for dogs is evident, as I see it Cesar has helped FAR more dogs than he has ever hurt and I admire him.


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## Mrs.K

Honestly, it went wrong because he wasn't paying attention. He explained what was going on, was not on top of the situation and things went wrong when he touched her. That's when she went after him. Had he stayed where he was without invading her, I think nothing would have happened. However, that's after watching that clip and the problem with that is, we are not in the situation, we sit behind a screen and can evaluate the situation over and over and over again. We are not in the situation. 

It was a split second where he didn't pay attention, misjudged the situation and caused the dog to go after him. And that could happen to anyone of us. 

As a matter of fact it happened to me. It's always that split second where you turn around, talk to somebody else and you "weren't there" when XXX hits the fan.


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## Sunflowers

Nobody's perfect. And the show is just a condensed version of a much longer time period.
This man is responsible for saving a lot of dogs from death. 
He is also the reason I had the knowledge I needed to even consider getting a GSD. Without his show I would be one of the many clueless owners out there who mess up dogs because they have no idea how to handle them.


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## Syaoransbear

Mrs.K said:


> Honestly, it went wrong because he wasn't paying attention. He explained what was going on, was not on top of the situation and things went wrong when he touched her. That's when she went after him. Had he stayed where he was without invading her, I think nothing would have happened. However, that's after watching that clip and the problem with that is, we are not in the situation, we sit behind a screen and can evaluate the situation over and over and over again. We are not in the situation.
> 
> It was a split second where he didn't pay attention, misjudged the situation and caused the dog to go after him. And that could happen to anyone of us.
> 
> As a matter of fact it happened to me. It's always that split second where you turn around, talk to somebody else and you "weren't there" when XXX hits the fan.


I agree, and this is how I saw it as well. He was explaining things about the dog and talking to the owner and totally wasn't paying attention at all, and he thought he was at the point where he could pet her but he wasn't, and then he got bit. I was surprised the dog punctured, though, instead of just putting teeth on skin as a warning but not using any pressure. That seemed pretty extreme.

If you watch any of his episodes they kind of have the same formula. Once the dog submits and gives up, Cesar usually proceeds to pet it and give it affection immediately after. And normally that works and the dog accepts the affection. This time he definitely went too fast, though, as this dog wasn't ready for that. I was surprised by the dog's reaction the same way cesar was, because even though the dog seemed very uncomfortable, it no longer seemed preoccupied or obsessed with guarding its food.

I'm glad they left this in as a good warning for owners that they really SHOULD NOT try this at home.


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## Twyla

I watched the full episode as well. Just spent a few minutes trying to find at least that full segment online. The only clips available is the 3 minutes the OP posted. 

While short clips such as this one can be interesting, it can be a disservice as well by not having the full background of the subject available.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Here's an interesting and very detailed breakdown from an expert who deals with aggressive dogs. His bio: 



> James W. Crosby CBCC-KA
> Retired Police Lieutenant (Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office, Jacksonville, FL) former Animal Control Division Manager and professional dog trainer James W. Crosby has invaluable experience and extensive insight to bring to the problem of dog attacks and dangerous dog issues. Jim consults with Animal Control and Law Enforcement Authorities on serious and fatal dog attacks, combining crime scene investigation, detailed interviews and dog evaluation to give a detailed behavioral analysis of the incidents. Jim is the author of the upcoming "Working the Worst: A Guide to Investigating Dog Related Fatalities", to be released mid-2012.


Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer



> Finally, this post is not about who is right and who is wrong. There are as many techniques as there are trainers and behaviorists. *I am concerned that this particular dog gave clear signals, repeatedly, that could have guided a trainer to a less invasive, less aggressive method of determining the same conclusion-and without risking the dog or the trainer by causing a potentially legally reportable bite.*
> 
> How would I address this issue? That is a longer post, but it would start with *not pushing the dog beyond the first warning signals, but using those to establish the parameters of the problem behavior and then proceeding, gaining the dog's confidence and slowly desensitizing the dog to the particular behavioral issue and pressing those parameters slowly back to help the dog make the right choices-and then reinforce those choices.*


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## Dainerra

I think that part of the difference, even with the other expert trainers, is that Cesaer isn't dealing with owners who are willing to wait for a solution. They have a dog with a serious problem and it needs fixed RIGHT NOW. If you don't fix it by tomorrow, then the dog is dead. Period. 
Cases like that, you really don't have the option beyond pushing the limits to get straight to the heart of the problem. Is it the owners' fault that they let it get to that point? Or that they don't have the patience to wait for other methods to work? Yes it is. But Cesar excels in those situations and his methods work. Are they sometimes not pretty? Yes. 
But to say that he abused the dog is ridiculous.


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## Sunflowers

Dainerra said:


> I think that part of the difference, even with the other expert trainers, is that Cesaer isn't dealing with owners who are willing to wait for a solution. They have a dog with a serious problem and it needs fixed RIGHT NOW. If you don't fix it by tomorrow, then the dog is dead. Period.
> Cases like that, you really don't have the option beyond pushing the limits to get straight to the heart of the problem. Is it the owners' fault that they let it get to that point? Or that they don't have the patience to wait for other methods to work? Yes it is. But Cesar excels in those situations and his methods work. Are they sometimes not pretty? Yes.
> But to say that he abused the dog is ridiculous.


:thumbup:


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## JakodaCD OA

Michelle I don't think there is a full episode online. It will probably be rerun at some point. 

As for abusing the dog? I don't see it as abuse either..I would have kicked the dog to if it had bit me like that..Are you going to stand there and say "Uh Holly ya wanna let go now?" 

And of course he's going to set the dog up , and incite a reaction, if he doesn't get a reaction how is he supposed to correct? 

I don't believe in messing with a dogs food, but this dog was 'messed' with a whole lot prior to Ceasar getting him.

If one feels bad for the dog, I'm sure Ceasar would be happy to adopt him out to someone who'd like to prove him wrong and totally rehad her


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## Twyla

It appears that this episode 'Showdown with Holly' will be on again this Saturday 9/22 at 9 pm EST


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## PatchonGSD

Dainerra said:


> I think that part of the difference, even with the other expert trainers, is that Cesaer isn't dealing with owners who are willing to wait for a solution. They have a dog with a serious problem and it needs fixed RIGHT NOW. If you don't fix it by tomorrow, then the dog is dead. Period.
> Cases like that, you really don't have the option beyond pushing the limits to get straight to the heart of the problem. Is it the owners' fault that they let it get to that point? Or that they don't have the patience to wait for other methods to work? Yes it is. But Cesar excels in those situations and his methods work. Are they sometimes not pretty? Yes.
> But to say that he abused the dog is ridiculous.


:thumbup::thumbup:


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## Freestep

Syaoransbear said:


> I agree, and this is how I saw it as well. He was explaining things about the dog and talking to the owner and totally wasn't paying attention at all, and he thought he was at the point where he could pet her but he wasn't, and then he got bit. I was surprised the dog punctured, though, instead of just putting teeth on skin as a warning but not using any pressure. That seemed pretty extreme.
> 
> If you watch any of his episodes they kind of have the same formula. Once the dog submits and gives up, Cesar usually proceeds to pet it and give it affection immediately after. And normally that works and the dog accepts the affection. This time he definitely went too fast, though, as this dog wasn't ready for that. I was surprised by the dog's reaction the same way cesar was, because even though the dog seemed very uncomfortable, it no longer seemed preoccupied or obsessed with guarding its food.
> 
> I'm glad they left this in as a good warning for owners that they really SHOULD NOT try this at home.


Yes, exactly. The thing that surprised me was that the dog bit him *after* he pulled his hand back. Obviously he was suprised by it too; I would not have guessed that was the moment she chose to bite. Secondly, the ferocity with which she attacked him was waaaaaay overboard. A "normal" dog who is stressed to the point of biting would have a) bitten the hand when he touched her, and b) let go quickly. But she hung on, shook, did not want to let go--he had to kick her in order to get her to break off. That is NOT normal behavior even for a frightened, stressed dog. The unpredicable nature and the severity of the attack makes this dog VERY dangerous, and if that were my dog, she'd be taking a dirt nap. Then again, if it were my dog, she never would have gotten to that point. I say that, but if the dog truly has a screw loose, there is no predicting what could happen.


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## Olivers mama

Dainerra said:


> I think that part of the difference, even with the other expert trainers, is that Cesaer isn't dealing with owners who are willing to wait for a solution. They have a dog with a serious problem and it needs fixed RIGHT NOW. If you don't fix it by tomorrow, then the dog is dead. Period.
> Cases like that, you really don't have the option beyond pushing the limits to get straight to the heart of the problem. Is it the owners' fault that they let it get to that point? Or that they don't have the patience to wait for other methods to work? Yes it is. But Cesar excels in those situations and his methods work. Are they sometimes not pretty? Yes.
> But to say that he abused the dog is ridiculous.


Add me to this list. IMO, a lot of this thread really comes down to the Pro-CM -vs- Anti-CM clubs. In the midst of that we forget that CM ONLY gets the problem dogs that most likely would be PTS without his 'intervention'. 

Whenwe got Ziva, we read lots of books, studied lots of DVDs, went to suggested trainers (BIG mistake, but we didn't know), watched dozens of episodes of CM & Victoria. Trying to find a blend that worked for our situation. Ziva wasn't a puppy. She was an older, scarred, starved & probably abused dog found roaming the streets of Fresno stealing tomatoes from the farmers so she could eat. We adopted a mental mess. I don't believe 1 training way works well for all dogs like ours - I believe a blend works.

Ziva doesn't (didn't) like women - she prefers men. She would bite me - not as bad as Holly did to CM, but those big canines still broke the skin. And it darn well hurts. Sorry, but my 1st impulse when she did it the 1st time, was to bust her one. And I did. A friend of mine (cop/K9 handler) offered to help. But it meant he had to set her up, using me as the bait. How else could he stop the behavior or re-train her, if he didn't see for himself what leads up to the bites, my reactions, her reactions, etc?

No - this was not abuse, IMO. CM HAD to set Holly up, in order to see what happens. Had he not intervened, you know what the outcome would've been --- PTS.


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## Josie/Zeus

Dainerra said:


> I think that part of the difference, even with the other expert trainers, is that Cesaer isn't dealing with owners who are willing to wait for a solution. They have a dog with a serious problem and it needs fixed RIGHT NOW. If you don't fix it by tomorrow, then the dog is dead. Period.
> Cases like that, you really don't have the option beyond pushing the limits to get straight to the heart of the problem. Is it the owners' fault that they let it get to that point? Or that they don't have the patience to wait for other methods to work? Yes it is. But Cesar excels in those situations and his methods work. Are they sometimes not pretty? Yes.
> But to say that he abused the dog is ridiculous.



:thumbup::thumbup:

Exactly! There are too many dog experts in forums such as this one. People think owning a dog for 30 minutes makes them an overnight expert in dog behavior.


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## msvette2u

Did any of you _read_ this site?

Canine Aggression Issues with Jim Crosby: Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer


There is no "screw loose" on that dog. Many trainers have stepped up to state such.

* The dog again warns the FDT with an air snap *(1:12) and exposed teeth that she is still uncomfortable being closely approached by the FDT, trying to get the FDT to draw back. The dog then rapidly bites the FDT's leading, ungloved and unprotected hand-the same hand he struck her with before. The FDT kicks the dog and the dog retreats toward a corner where a photographer is standing. The dog never redirects toward the photographer. As the dog backs up the FDT pursues, frontal and challenging. The dog growls, bares her teeth, gives "hard eyes" and in general tries to get some space away from the FDT. The dog is now up against a fence and has no room to retreat.

At 1:20 the FDT stops advancing just in front of the dog, who is backed up against the fence. The dog relaxes her face, closes her mouth, gives repeated appeasement licks and averts her gaze from the FDT, who is still staring the dog down. The dog still shows tension, but does not pursue or otherwise engage the FDT. She holds her ground as there is no where else to go. At 1:25 you can see clearly that the dog is backed up against the fence. 

The dog holds her position and calms, showing softened eyes, slack mouth, repeatedly averted gaze (1:43) and does not engage or show any aggressive display towards the FDT, even at close range as the FDT stands facing directly and standing over her, even as he gets a drink of water and washes off his bitten hand. The dog still (1:53) has no place to retreat.

At 1:58 we can clearly see another appeasement lick, ears down, eyes softened, mouth closed. At 2:00 a note appears on the screen "Elapsed time 3 min 6 sec" apparently illustrating the time the FDT has had the dog cornered against the fence. At 2:03 you can clearly see that the dog is holding a body position that is angled away from the FDT and curved (submissive/appeasement signals) to try and defuse the encounter. The dog is blinking, averting her gaze, ears down, with the angled body, all indicative of appeasement (submission) when the camera man says at 2:06 "She's still not submissive". The FDT states "No" as the dog again turns her head away and down. At 2:33 the dog is still standing quietly, body angled and in a crescent, gaze averted, ears down, backed up against the fence. The dog has a relaxed mouth continuing a non-confrontational posture through the on-screen marker that says "5 min 4 sec" (2:42 video time). FDT turns away and walks off, back turned to the dog. The dog makes no effort to pursue or attack-she simply stays up against the fence.

Is this dog "safe", especially around small children? Not at this juncture. This dog needs work. Progressive, positive and instructive work to desensitize the problem behavior and replace that behavior with acceptable, calm behavior. Can that be done? Most likely, given enough time and safe management of the dog until the problem is mitigated. That depends on the dog-they are living beings with their own personalities and are influenced by genetics, experience, training, environment-and even just how they feel a certain day.

Now again, I realize that things happen fast in a dog evaluation, especially when something goes awry. That is the biggest value of video-the ability to dissect the actual situation second by second. This dissection tells a lot about both the dog in question, and the evaluator. I have seen in video signals that I have missed. That is why, when I can, I get another experienced person to watch in real time to warn me of signals that I may have not seen as I looked away or was focusing on other details-like not stepping in a hole. * But the overall purpose of evaluation and treatment is not to ignore clear signals and push a dog into biting you: in my world the purpose of an evaluation is to guide your treatment and diagnose problems, and triggers, without harming anyone. That includes setting a dog up for future failure because you had to prove you were the baddest on the block.*

ADDENDUM TO THE ORIGINAL POST:


I think it is time to wade in here with a couple points that the emotions of this sort of issue drags up. First off, I am NOT bashing any particular trainer. The trainer involved here put this out as a publicly accessible part of an entertainment show, not an educational seminar. What I did was provide a point by point analysis of the dog's behavior. I point out signals and signs that a professional should be looking for and address, during evaluation and during training. I agree that the owners likely bear responsibility for setting this dog up to fail by whatever behavior they tolerated and didn't address much sooner. I also agree that, in its current state, this dog is not safe around small children. The trainer publicizing this clip raised questions that parties asked me, and I responded in a fair, balanced manner leaving value judgments aside.

That said there a few other issues. First, there is no such thing as a Certified "Rehabilitator". There are trainers, from the person who sticks out a shingle saying "Dog Trainer" with no education or certification to those who possess supported credentials such as through the APDT/CCPDT (which I had) and the IACP to several other oversight organizations such as the Karen Prior Trainers, the Victoria Stilwell Positive Trainers, the Animal Behavior College, and others. These folks are trainers-of varying skills. Then there are Behavior Consultants with credentials such as CBCC-KA (me and others), certification from the IAABC, and other behavior based certifying organizations. Then there are Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists and Veterinary Behaviorists, the top of the pile. Any or all of these folks, from the guy with a self-declared title of "Dog Trainer" to the Veterinary Behaviorist can function as a rehabilitator of dogs. That is what trainers and behaviorists do. I have trained a ton of dogs-and have rehabilitated a large number of problem dogs. That doesn't mean I crown myself "Dog Rehabilitator". That means I am a trainer, a behavior consultant, and evaluator (through the AKC and others but certification). Rehabilitator is a meaningless title-to be competent rehabilitation must be based on training, behavior analysis, behavior modification, and perhaps medical intervention by a Veterinary Behaviorist. 

Finally, this post is not about who is right and who is wrong. There are as many techniques as there are trainers and behaviorists. * I am concerned that this particular dog gave clear signals, repeatedly, that could have guided a trainer to a less invasive, less aggressive method of determining the same conclusion-and without risking the dog or the trainer by causing a potentially legally reportable bite. * 

How would I address this issue? That is a longer post, but *it would start with not pushing the dog beyond the first warning signals, but using those to establish the parameters of the problem behavior and then proceeding, gaining the dog's confidence and slowly desensitizing the dog to the particular behavioral issue and pressing those parameters slowly back to help the dog make the right choices-and then reinforce those choices.*

Jim Crosby


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## PatchonGSD

Msvette2u- I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but what exactly is your point with the above post?? Everyone, including those who support CM admitted that he did slip on this one.


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## msvette2u

That it is a general consensus that this dog has no "screw loose", and what you saw was a dog pushed beyond where she should have been.
And that the situation could and should have been dealt with differently. 

Oh, and that it isn't cruelty, it's called grandstanding.


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## martemchik

I don't see that dog backed into a corner anywhere on that video...there is a fence on the right side of the dog...there is a whole yard to the left of the dog...there is a CM in front of the dog. How is this dog not able to run? I mean...I'm a 23 year old and I've tried to corner my dog when we're wrestling. He figures out how to get past me if I give him 6 inches of space. If I tried harder I'm sure I could stop him, but then he's also bulldozed right through me on occasion.

In a yard that big...I wouldn't stand a chance.

Response to msvette...its great that you wouldn't push this dog to its limit. CM's methods push the dogs to their limits. He tries to gain the trust of the dog and push them through their limit. Not pushing a dog to their limit works...in small steps...and takes a long time. The theory is to increase the dog's thresh hold with every training session and hopefully one day get it to a manageable point or a rehabilitated point. How long does this take? If I had a three year old child...and had a dog react this way...it wouldn't be at my house for long. I'm surprised these owners kept it that long and actually got the chance to work with Cesar. If anyone is to blame its the owners, its always the owners, if they saw this happening at 6 months they could've contacted a better trainer/behaviorist and worked on it then...but they didn't. Or they just found the wrong one.

I don't get why people keep posting this Jim Crosby guy...its one guy that evaluated this situation...you seem to agree with his methods so of course he's going to be right in this situation. Post about 50 more people and I'll take their word for it. But why would I blindly follow this Jim Crosby guy's advice? To me he's the same as CM...just some trainer out there. Both have had a lot of success...both have probably failed more than their fair share of times.


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## Cassidy's Mom

martemchik said:


> Response to msvette...its great that you wouldn't push this dog to its limit. CM's methods push the dogs to their limits. He tries to gain the trust of the dog and push them through their limit. Not pushing a dog to their limit works...in small steps...and takes a long time. The theory is to increase the dog's thresh hold with every training session and hopefully one day get it to a manageable point or a rehabilitated point. How long does this take? If I had a three year old child...and had a dog react this way...it wouldn't be at my house for long. I'm surprised these owners kept it that long and actually got the chance to work with Cesar. If anyone is to blame its the owners, its always the owners, if they saw this happening at 6 months they could've contacted a better trainer/behaviorist and worked on it then...but they didn't. Or they just found the wrong one.


But the point is that what Cesar did did NOT "fix" this dog! Pushing the dog to it's limits did not help the situation at all, and now the dog has a bite record, which actually makes things worse. As Mr. Crosby said in his blog post (did you read it?) is that the dog is NOT currently safe around the kids, but that it could be with time and training. So they either take the time to do the training or they give up the dog, no matter what approach they use - but in one approach a person is injured and a dog has a bite record. In the other, nobody is harmed, either human or dog. How is that not preferable? :thinking: *Provoking a bite did not fix this dog*. 



> I don't get why people keep posting this Jim Crosby guy...its one guy that evaluated this situation...you seem to agree with his methods so of course he's going to be right in this situation. Post about 50 more people and I'll take their word for it. But why would I blindly follow this Jim Crosby guy's advice? To me he's the same as CM...just some trainer out there. Both have had a lot of success...both have probably failed more than their fair share of times.


It's ONE GUY who is an _expert_ in dog attacks and dangerous dog issues. He consults with Animal Control and Law Enforcement about serious and fatal dog attacks. He is a Certified Behavior Consultant Canine-Knowledge Assessed (CBCC-KA), so he not only has professional certifications, he is respected and consulted by law enforcement when people are seriously injured or killed by a dog attack, he's not just a self appointed "behaviorist" like Cesar who works with people and their pet dogs on a TV show. Their level of knowledge and experience is not even remotely comparable, which is why people should "blindly follow this guy's advice". Why would you need 50 other people to corroborate what HE says, when you are willing to blindly follow Cesar?!?!? They are not the same. Jim Crosby is not "just some trainer out there". 

I don't hate Cesar, but I just don't understand why people love him so much that they can't take _any_ criticism of him, even by people who are much more knowledgeable and qualified than he is.


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## msvette2u

> Post about 50 more people and I'll take their word for it. But why would I blindly follow this Jim Crosby guy's advice?


Really?
And because Cesar has a TV show, therefore he's way more credible??
Early on in this thread another account of this dog's actions in response to Cesar's were given broken down action by action, and that was summarily overlooked as well!

Everyone is saying, that dog has no "screw loose", she's given plenty of signals that she was uncomfortable and wanted the dude to back off - and that's what I see, there's no damaged broken dangerous unpredictable (etc. ad nauseum) "screw loose" dog, that dog gave off every signal a dog has in it's possession and yet she was pushed over the limit. 

And we're all saying, "why"? because as stated in this trainer's blog, that bite is a declaration and even a death sentence in some areas.

And we've said over and over, had he just approached the dog, given it some nice kibble in the bowl, or heck, skip the bowl and hand-feed her, she'd never had done this in the 1st place, so here we have unnecessary grandstanding for the sake of a show and to the detriment of the dog.

And Joe Blow would walk away from it all going, "WOW that's so easy to fix!" instead of "WOW what a cool guy Cesar is, he got bit and STILL kept the maniacal food aggressive screw loose messed up dog!"

It's just a sad day for all of dogdom, that's all


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## Cassidy's Mom

Hey, I have an idea - how about we post "50 more people" who agree with Cesar in this particular case, and then maybe *I'LL* take his word for it! :wild:

After all, if we're going to be skeptical about trainers, shouldn't we apply the same standard to everyone?


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## Freestep

Cassidy's Mom said:


> :thinking: *Provoking a bite did not fix this dog*.


I don't think anyone here is arguing that the dog is "fixed", or that Cesar was trying to "fix" her during this video--the way I read it, it's part of an evaluation, not a training session. Yes, he made a bad call and got bitten. Most dog trainers that work with problem ("red zone") dogs are going to get bitten at some point. 

Obviously there are severe issues that are not going to be solved overnight, if at all. The best that can be done at this point is management IMO.


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> And we've said over and over, had he just approached the dog, given it some nice kibble in the bowl, or heck, skip the bowl and hand-feed her, she'd never had done this in the 1st place


Really? You know this to be true?


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## LARHAGE

msvette2u said:


> That it is a general consensus that this dog has no "screw loose", and what you saw was a dog pushed beyond where she should have been.
> And that the situation could and should have been dealt with differently.
> 
> Oh, and that it isn't cruelty, it's called grandstanding.


 
I would be more apt to take your posiion if this so called expert had actually had his hands on this dog and cured him, to this point he's just like a lot of other experts, diagnosing the problem from behind a keyboard. This is an animal, and by that very definition prone to be unpredictable, no one can say they have the answers, I don't care how glowing their endorsements, and I'm sure his credentials are no more glowing than Cesars. 50 years spent with numerous dogs and horses has taught me one thing, you NEVER stop learning, and those who say they know it all, know nothing.


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## msvette2u

Freestep said:


> Really? You know this to be true?


I believe, as other trainers that also viewed it have stated, and gave blow by blow details of that particular dog's body language, that this dog is very salvageable and with proper training and desensitization, YES I know it to be true.

If you re-read the above blog you'd see it too.



> those who say they know it all,


I realize it's popular to hate anyone who hates Cesar but please, have some sense, even a wee bit.
I never once said "I know everything". I've learned tons from dogs, even more from the "problem dogs" but I continue to learn daily.

It's those who insist dogs need dominated or they're going to overthrow the world and refuse to learn new/different ways that are a problem.

I used to think that, too, dogs needed to "know who is boss", dominate them, and we have had to euthanize one dog some 10+ yrs. ago.
I can only wish I had the information I do now about resource guarding and leadership. We were told to hang the dog, choke him out, dominate him, etc. and none of it worked. I see why, now. I've changed how I deal with these type of dogs and only seen success.

That dog, too, could have been saved. But not by strong arming him and bullying and "dominating" him. Obviously.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I realize that Freestep, but several people made the point that fixing this behavior without "pushing the limits" could take a long time - time that someone with a small child around can't afford to take, and that is true.

Comments like this:



> I think that part of the difference, even with the other expert trainers, is that Cesaer isn't dealing with owners who are willing to wait for a solution. They have a dog with a serious problem and it needs fixed RIGHT NOW. If you don't fix it by tomorrow, then the dog is dead. Period.
> 
> Cases like that, you really don't have the option beyond pushing the limits to get straight to the heart of the problem. Is it the owners' fault that they let it get to that point? Or that they don't have the patience to wait for other methods to work? Yes it is. But Cesar excels in those situations and his methods work.


And this:



> CM's methods push the dogs to their limits. He tries to gain the trust of the dog and push them through their limit. Not pushing a dog to their limit works...in small steps...and takes a long time. The theory is to increase the dog's thresh hold with every training session and hopefully one day get it to a manageable point or a rehabilitated point. How long does this take?


The argument that the dog's limits needed to be pushed might be valid if it _had_ worked, but it didn't, and wasn't likely to. It was just a bad idea that accomplished exactly nothing and didn't need to be done. :shrug:


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## Cassidy's Mom

Jim Crosby's credentials are WAY more glowing than Cesar's. Cesar _has_ no credentials, and it boggles my mind that people blindly trust what he says and does simply because they've heard of him, and refuse to consider what an expert who disagrees with him says. 

One guy is a REAL trainer and behavior expert, the other has a TV show, for entertainment - hence the "don't try this at home" disclaimer.


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## msvette2u

> It was just a bad idea that accomplished exactly nothing and didn't need to be done.


But there's the rub! This guy has a TV show and a flair for the dramatic and the dog LOST.
CM didn't, the dog did. But it makes for a wonderful TV show and great ratings. 
Just as the Enquirer headlines scream about this person having an affair and that marriage is over, Cesar's "headlines" scream "he gets bitten!" and boom, people rush to watch him on TV. 

No it wasn't kid safe - yet - but I have no doubt in my mind with proper desensitization, back up and start over and get a paradigm shift (that's what it really takes) and treat the dog differently - stop making her afraid and insecure and start helping her realize you aren't the "taker" but the "giver" of all good things, and she may well have gone on to be a wonderful, kid safe dog.

And as Lies said early on, these are not small humans with fur, they are dogs, and need more structure and fewer (moral) expectations to survive in our world.
Dogs have no moral compass, they are merely dogs.


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## msvette2u

_Retired Police Lieutenant (Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office, Jacksonville, FL) former Animal Control Division Manager and professional dog trainer James W. Crosby has invaluable experience and extensive insight to bring to the problem of dog attacks and dangerous dog issues. Jim consults with Animal Control and Law Enforcement Authorities on serious and fatal dog attacks, combining crime scene investigation, detailed interviews and dog evaluation to give a detailed behavioral analysis of the incidents. Jim is the author of the upcoming "Working the Worst: A Guide to Investigating Dog Related Fatalities", to be released mid-2012. Contact by email at [email protected] or by phone 904-476-7655 or 904-290-1328._

Sounds like a great book, I'll be looking into that one!


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## Olivers mama

CM's show - IMO - is the same as all the other "reality" shows on TV now. We all know he does these things for ratings.

But, let's say that you, as a trainer, are called in for a 'Holly' dog. You have a limited amount of time to assess said dog & the owners. How do YOU set it up?

I don't like what he did, but don't think it's 'abuse'. And now he has the dog. I doubt this bite will harm the dog's future. Maybe she can never be around kids. Maybe she can never be adopted, in which case, CM would keep her. He admitted he was wrong.

But how would YOU set up the dog to snap or bite? Following that, how would YOU teach the dog not to do it any more? I'm curious, for we have a dog that only bites me. And, for a trainer to see the situation, he had to set me up. So he would know how to stop the behavior.

Anyone?


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## msvette2u

> But how would YOU set up the dog to snap or bite?


The family told how they did with the dog and it's known she resource guards food. To me, I don't need to "dominate her" and that's what started this mess with CM. 

I don't need to see she has food guarding, because they told me that! (assuming I'm there) plus, food guarding is fairly natural to a dog, which they learn as puppies so it's not a surprising complaint. 

I'd start by trying some low value stuff and feed by hand, and continue to feed by hand until I saw she was fine with having the food around and not so stressed by there mere presence of food that she got guardy.

I'd recommend they continue to feed by hand, and also recommend they implement all MIND GAMES Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong until they saw that she respected them as the leader.

I may in fact recommend she be placed in a home with no kids - but only if they couldn't stop messing with her during meals, or allowing a kid near her when she had meals or treats.

If not gates and crates, I'd suggest they implement Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong again in all areas, and make sure she got good and desensitized to having food and treats, not necessarily "taken from her" but that she needs to feel secure they won't be taken away, which is a very negative thing and makes dogs want to guard.

I'd do this anyway - with or without the aggression @ meal time, any time a kid and dog live in the same house I'd set the dog up for success by giving food and treats in the crate or away from other dogs and kids.

And again, you have to look @ the whole picture, what else is the dog doing? Guarding beds, couches, toys? ETC.
There has to be global change with that dog, not just at the food bowl.

When does your dog bite you, oliver's? What's going on at that time?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I don't know what the show showed in terms of her behavior at home. If the owners have seen it before, have a video of it, would you need to set the dog up to do it? Or could you just go about fixing it? You would know when it stopped. And if she was resource guarding, and just did that, I wouldn't see the need to push her beyond that into fight/flight, just to see if she would attack. 

Like shelter evals. They do some basic things that dogs should be able to respond positively or neutrally to, even though the people doing the test are usually strangers. They test them on being touched all over, being held, walking away from the dog, walking at, running past, checking the teeth, how they do with food (lots of times using a vinyl hand), high value treats, other animals, etc. Lots of places have tests, some use a specific type of test, but they all do some sort of testing. 

But you don't get down on the ground and snarl and smack them, and then back them into a corner and use, especially if you know you have "energy," that energy AT them to provoke them into fight or flight. There are a bunch of dogs on this board that I am betting would not pass that test. Not only that, you are then creating more issues that need to be fixed, what a pain in the butt. 

Now, if you are evaling and a dog snarks at you on handling, from my understanding, you stop the test. But again that's outside my normal role - I will do initial meetings and push at a dog a bit but am also looking for their strengths...

Maddie's Fund - Behavioral Assessment in Animal Shelters some info

SAFER eval: SAFER : SAFER® FAQs : ASPCA Professional 

I would LOVE to be able to do this certification: http://www.suzanneclothier.com/sites/default/files/CARAT_Certification_and_Curriculum_vFeb2012.pdf the trainer I am going to right now is in that program and is eyeballing my dog using the guidelines for fun. 

So that gives you some ideas on ways you can test and work with dogs without making things worse.


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> I believe, as other trainers that also viewed it have stated, and gave blow by blow details of that particular dog's body language, that this dog is very salvageable and with proper training and desensitization, YES I know it to be true.


But neither you nor those "other trainers" aren't there, they haven't even met the dog, let alone tried anything with her. It's entirely possible that you too could be bitten even trying to "salvage" her with your favorite method. NOT ALL METHODS WORK WITH ALL DOGS. You might "believe" something to be true, but you don't KNOW anything about this particular dog.

All kinds of armchair quarterbacking is going on in this thread. Everyone's an expert until they meet the dog that they can't fix. Including Cesar Milan. There are some dogs that just have faulty wiring; it isn't their fault, it is what it is. No matter what you see in a minute of video, and what opinions are voiced about that video, you don't really KNOW what is going on with that dog. You can make an educated guess, you can even say "Bring me that dog and I'll fix it", but until you've actually done it, you can't say you KNOW.


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## msvette2u

> It's entirely possible that you too could be bitten


Just like you, that's a daily reality here, just by doing what we do. 
We, as a rescue, take in many "a/c" cases (dogs off the road/street) than many rescues do. We take dogs who have been untested and _un_assessed right out of shelters.

I just picked up a purebred GSD pup (unclear on age, over 6mos./under 9mos.) that was quite stiff and showing many signs of being a fear biter - guess what I did?

A hint...it wasn't - 


> But you don't *get down on the ground and snarl and smack them, and then back them into a corner* and use, especially if you know you have "energy," that energy AT them to p*rovoke them into fight or flight.* There are a bunch of dogs on this board that I am betting would not pass that test. Not only that, you are then creating more issues that need to be fixed, what a pain in the butt.


Uh uh! Not at all. I whipped out a leash, made a makeshift muzzle, then picked her up and got her right into that crate.

And later, in a controlled fashion we stressed her (vaccines, deworming and photo process) and ascertained she has a pretty high bite threshold because we've not reached it through normal daily activities :thumbup:

OH and all those lovely "intake" assessments? Almost _none_ are accurate!



> You can make an educated guess, you can even say "Bring me that dog and I'll fix it", but until you've actually done it, you can't say you KNOW.


I am 99.9% sure she'd be fine because of what I observed, plus - 



> At 1:20 the FDT stops advancing just in front of the dog, who is backed up against the fence. The dog relaxes her face, closes her mouth, gives repeated appeasement licks and averts her gaze from the FDT, who is still staring the dog down. The dog still shows tension, but does not pursue or otherwise engage the FDT. She holds her ground as there is no where else to go. At 1:25 you can see clearly that the dog is backed up against the fence.





> At 2:33 the dog is still standing quietly, body angled and in a crescent, gaze averted, ears down, backed up against the fence. The dog has a relaxed mouth continuing a non-confrontational posture through the on-screen marker that says "5 min 4 sec" (2:42 video time). FDT turns away and walks off, back turned to the dog. The dog makes no effort to pursue or attack-she simply stays up against the fence.


Just gives term and credence to what I saw with my own eyes.

If that dog was so unpredictable and dangerous she'd never have let the guy walk away. Turning your back on some dogs will get you bitten, but not with this girl. 
She just wanted it _over._


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## msvette2u

> There are a bunch of dogs on this board that I am betting would not pass that test.


I bet the same - are their "screws loose", or unpredictable maniacs? Naw. 
They are just typical _dogs._


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## Cassidy's Mom

Freestep said:


> But neither you nor those "other trainers" aren't there, they haven't even met the dog, let alone tried anything with her. It's entirely possible that you too could be bitten even trying to "salvage" her with your favorite method. NOT ALL METHODS WORK WITH ALL DOGS. You might "believe" something to be true, but you don't KNOW anything about this particular dog.
> 
> All kinds of armchair quarterbacking is going on in this thread. Everyone's an expert until they meet the dog that they can't fix. Including Cesar Milan. There are some dogs that just have faulty wiring; it isn't their fault, it is what it is. No matter what you see in a minute of video, and what opinions are voiced about that video, you don't really KNOW what is going on with that dog. You can make an educated guess, you can even say "Bring me that dog and I'll fix it", but until you've actually done it, you can't say you KNOW.


Of course, hindsight is 20/20. As Mr. Crosby acknowledges in the blog post I linked to:



> One caveat here: remember that when you are in the midst of an evaluation or training session you may not see absolutely everything the dog is doing, based on your angle and the dog's angle-BUT, if you are face to face I certainly expect the trainer/evaluator to have at least basic situation awareness and a general idea of the signals and posture of the dog.


On the one hand you have someone who comes from a philosophy that you _need_ to push a dog to the limit - either to "fix it", or to see how it reacts, of because it's going to be more dramatic and show better on TV, or all of the above. On the other hand you have someone who comes from a philosophy that it's not necessary to push a dog to the limit and get bitten in order to deal with problem behaviors. That philosophy might lead you in this direction instead:



> How would I address this issue? That is a longer post, but it would start with not pushing the dog beyond the first warning signals, but using those to establish the parameters of the problem behavior and then proceeding, gaining the dog's confidence and slowly desensitizing the dog to the particular behavioral issue and pressing those parameters slowly back to help the dog make the right choices-and then reinforce those choices.


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## msvette2u

> gaining the dog's confidence


This would be step one.
How many feel you must gain a dog's confidence before working with it?

vs.

How many of you feel a dog must be scared crapless, and bullied so it "submits" before you can work with it?

That's probably the bigger question.


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## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> I am 99.9% sure she'd be fine


Okay, so you're admitting there is a 1 in 1000 chance that you're wrong. If you've worked with a thousand dogs, and been right with all of them, your number could be up with this one. Or the one you take in tomorrow. Or the one you take in 2 years from now. Who knows. 

My point is, don't ever think you know everything, because that's when you'll get nailed--just like Cesar did in this video.


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## msvette2u

And I never said I "know everything" but I know I'd never have pushed that dog until it bit me, to work with it 
What I've been saying is that it is not necessary to do that and her "issue" would never have been an issue here. I can promise you that. I'd never turn it into an issue, we'd have taken control of all her choices and became her sun and moon and stars. 
We _assume_ all dogs are going to do similar things and take _preventive measures._

And it's painful to watch - not due to the bite - but the complete showboating that was going on, for the benefit of ratings and not the dog's benefit.


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## Jack's Dad

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't see anyone saying they watched the entire episode with this dog/Ceasar?
> 
> Well I did..I am not here to say what Ceasar did was right/wrong. Here's the facts, the dog was bought as a puppy out of a parking lot. The owners said when she hit about 5-6 months old, she became VERY food aggressive. Clips showed the dog MUCH worse than she was w/Ceasar. Had bitten the man and the wife. It showed the man, telling her to sit, putting the bowl down, releasing her (she had VERY good obedience), and then he'd start messing with her bowl with BROOM, she would attack the broom, and she was quite nasty about it. He admitted he used the broom ALOT and messed with her food. Which in my mind made things MUCH worse.
> 
> Now, when there was no food involved, that dog was obedient, loved EVERYONE it met, was fine with otherdogs, LOVED their 3 year old kid. You would look at this dog and think, "GOSH what a nice dog!". Food involved all bets were off.
> 
> *After the Ceasar incident, they were crating her ALOT, and said she was even worse, (showed clips of her going ballistic in a crate biting wire etc).. He took her. His concern and the concern of the owners was, what if the kid had a piece of food around the dog? A very legitimate concern.
> 
> I am not condoning Ceasar's methods, but that dog was going to do some serious damage to someone if something wasn't done. In the training center clips, she had a few minor setbacks, and they showed them, she was pretty submissive with his pack of dogs, but did eventually get integrated into his pack. *
> 
> In the end, he told them he was keeping her because tho she was 'better', she could never fully be trusted especially with a kid around.
> 
> While I'm not a big fan of Ceasar's, hey he could have just cut out the bad stuff and no one would be the wiser..Shows he's human and messes up as well.
> 
> You can bash his methods all you want, but this dog was some freakin wacked out when it came to food, I doubt anyone else would have taken her on or would even 'think" about it. I know I wouldn't.
> 
> I would LOVE to see a video with a dog this NASTY rehabbed by someone else. (remember this one ended up being managed, but never 'cured')..


Apparently a few people skipped over this excellent post by Diane who did watch the whole video.

IMO you don't judge someone from a short clip like that.

As an individual Cesar has probably done more for dogs in general than almost anyone.

Beside his own successes, (he does have them) his foundation gives tons of money to rescues and humane societies. Money from seminars he could keep for himself.

If people don't like his methods then don't use them.
I don't agree with him 100% but I believe he loves dogs and has done a lot for them.

Another thing that bothers me is sometimes the advice on this forum doesn't seem to take in the idea that most pet owners just want a good safe family dog. They don't want, or have the time and resources to make a career out of their dogs.
I would never have had the time or inclination to spend hand feeding my dog so it wouldn't rip one of my kids faces open. 

I don't think the dog was abused.


----------



## Freestep

msvette2u said:


> And I never said I "know everything" but I know I'd never have pushed that dog until it bit me, to work with it


But you don't necessarily know what it takes to make that dog bite, where the threshold is. Using your method, you could still be bitten. You just don't know. Dogs bite for reasons we may not understand; even those you think you can read.

Several years ago, I got a Miniature Poodle in for grooming. New client, she was totally fine in the lobby, let me look her over, touch her, she even licked my hand. Neato. I put her in a crate while I readied her bath. 

With new clients, I always leave a lead on when the dog is in the crate. So I went to take this Poodle out. Greeted her, opened the crate door, and reached for the end of the leash, not directly at her. With no warning, not a growl, not a lip curl or a stare or a white of the eye showing, NOTHING--that dog struck me on the hand like a rattlesnake. I was totally taken off guard.

Now, if we'd had a video, maybe there was a something you all could pick apart. The dog is TOO still... stiff. I should have seen it and not "pushed" her to bite me. The dog was hard of hearing, her hair was over her eyes, and she didn't know I was there, I "pushed" her to bite me by not making my presence known better. I should have known this or that, I should have used more caution, moved more slowly, blah blah blah. 

To this day I wonder what it was that I missed in her demeanor, but apparently this dog's owner had "a terrible time finding a good groomer" (read: every groomer has kicked this nasty little dog out of their salon), so it's entirely possible that the dog had either had a screw loose, or had been treated roughly at some point, so she learned to shoot first and ask questions later. But I will say, there was someone nearby who was breeding a lot of nasty Miniature Poodles around this time, as I was seeing a disproportionate number of nasty Mini's. The Toys were fine, the Standards were fine, but the Minis (with a few notable exceptions) had very low thresholds for biting. 

I was willing to work with the dog. Once I got her out of her crate, she was lovely. Of course I muzzled her just in case, but she behaved perfectly and let me do anything I wanted. I just knew next time to put her in the bottom crate, and leave the end of the leash well outside the crate door so I could simply walk her out, rather than reaching in. But the owner never came back.

Anyway, my point is... even when you're doing all the right things, and you have years, even decades of experience, you can still be surprised.


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## Olivers mama

Jack's Dad said:


> Apparently a few people skipped over this excellent post by Diane who did watch the whole video.
> 
> IMO you don't judge someone from a short clip like that.
> 
> As an individual Cesar has probably done more for dogs in general than almost anyone.
> 
> Beside his own successes, (he does have them) his foundation gives tons of money to rescues and humane societies. Money from seminars he could keep for himself.
> 
> If people don't like his methods then don't use them.
> I don't agree with him 100% but I believe he loves dogs and has done a lot for them.
> 
> Another thing that bothers me is sometimes the advice on this forum doesn't seem to take in the idea that most pet owners just want a good safe family dog. They don't want, or have the time and resources to make a career out of their dogs.
> I would never have had the time or inclination to spend hand feeding my dog so it wouldn't rip one of my kids faces open.
> 
> I don't think the dog was abused.


EXCELLENT! But I have to admit, I LMAO with your next-to-last sentence about hand-feeding to avoid....

I like some of CM's tactics - certainly appreciate his success. Don't like his cockiness. Same for Victoria. But neither of their ways of doing things would work 100% with Ziva. Ziva is not a 100% treat dog, nor do I want her smacked.

There are as many opinions about dog training as there are, well, you know. Then you add behaviorists. Treats/No treats. Chain - leather - prong - ecollar. Long lead/short lead. Crate/no crate. Oh, & don't forget about what you should FEED the dog...kibble/wet/raw/veges/more supplements than Carter's got liver pills.

It's a wonder a newbie like me doesn't just give up...


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## Draugr

I see a lot of ripping on Cesar's ego, but TBH I think he's done a lot better with that recently. Back in the early seasons he NEVER would have said something like "I didn't see that coming."


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## Dainerra

Draugr said:


> I see a lot of ripping on Cesar's ego, but TBH I think he's done a lot better with that recently. Back in the early seasons he NEVER would have said something like "I didn't see that coming."


In all honesty, he likely has little say in what actually makes it into the show. The producers edit based on what is going to get the viewers and thereby attract advertisers.


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## Twyla

I watched this episode. If the owners had gotten serious with the aggression when it first started, hand feeding would have worked. If they had brought a trainer in to work with them, the owners would have learned how to work with the lab. Instead they resorted to brooms and playing with the food. By the time CM was brought in, hand feeding would have resulted in a bite.

I am a firm believer in working under threshold, but in this case just saying 'Holly has food aggression' would not have even come close to explaining the level of aggression she has. 

CM made some huge mistakes with this dog, but the condition this dog is in falls back squarely on the owners.

As said in an earlier post - this episode is scheduled to be aired again Saturday, 9/22 at 9 pm EST.


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## stealthq

Freestep said:


> But you don't necessarily know what it takes to make that dog bite, where the threshold is. Using your method, you could still be bitten. You just don't know. Dogs bite for reasons we may not understand; even those you think you can read.


This was actually one of the things I was thinking as I read through this thread. I've known a dog (an outside barn dog) where if you offered her food, she'd go right for you and if you weren't fast enough dropping it and getting away, you'd get bitten. 

The bite hurt, but I don't think she ever drew blood. She was a short-legged jack russell and didn't seem to want to do damage, just tag you and scare you away from the food. I will say that she shocked the heck out of everyone who ever tried to feed her other than by putting down a bowl and getting the heck away from it. 

As far as I could tell, she never gave any indication she was going to go for you. No whine, no growl, no tensing up. Little jerk would stand there with the same eager/excited look and wagging tail as when she thought someone was going to wave a coach whip so she could chase the end. I'd swear she thought it was a game.


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## msvette2u

> the condition this dog is in falls back squarely on the owners.


This is really, nearly always the case.
People usually create their dog's issues just before giving up the dog. if the issues are "severe" enough 

We're on the verge of taking back a returned dog that has bitten the teenage son - twice - and yet the owners still would give that dog privileges like sleeping on beds and sitting on couches and that's when the bites occurred. (they won't return him *yet* because they are afraid he'll be PTS here, and that may be the case)

I say occurred, not "are occurring" because now that they NILIF strictly and MIND GAMES, the dog is not biting.
Will he ever be safe around kids, or anyone? The boy isn't exactly a kid...I think he was 11-12 when they adopted and 15 or 16 6mos. ago when he was bitten again.

Since that time, I told her it is up to her to save this dog's life so step up and stop treating him like a fur sibling. 
Now it's not an issue.
But I can't be sure he won't be an issue in the future if people allow the freedom he was allowed when the bites occur. 

Now. I know how to manage that dog. He was apparently managed fine here, because we treat all dogs the same, if they push things or are bratty at all, which can be a prelude to a bite, they lose privileges and this is the thing - we never _see_ this behavior, we don't have biters. They just don't develop that because dogs are dogs here, and if they try to take over and own things here to the extent they'll guard it, they will lose it. That way of life works very well for these dogs! They eventually realize if they want the privilege they'd better stop doing that stuff.

OR maybe they never learn. If they are such out and out biters that they'll still bite even when the above measures weren't working then they won't make it out of our rescue alive. 

My issue is...even though you tell people "the dog needs this, and that, to be safe" they still won't do it.
The owners revert to "oh poor widdle baby dog, he's so sad" about sleeping in a crate, or whatever, and boom, crap hits the fans.


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## APBTLove

I didn't read the whole thread, no time.

CM is an idiot. Can't stress it enough, he uses choking, hitting, and fear to control dogs and it sickens me. And he 'looooves' pit bulls, and knows nothing about how to handle them. He gets fast results that don't last. I wouldn't let him look at my dogs.

But the people saying that you just shouldn't mess with the dog while it's eating, why touch the dog while it has food, there's no reason etc. etc. - I didn't teach my dogs that it's good when I approach them eating because I'm fond of stroking a dog while it chews or particularly like playing with slobbery food. When they get something they shouldn't have, when they are eating something dangerous, and decide that they are going to be a dog and NOT listen when I say "out" for once, I want to be able to go stick my hand in the dog's mouth and get the strange hotdog or something out of his mouth without a worry about being shown aggression by my own dog!


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## Caragirl

I saw that show. I am far form a dog expert, but I saw that bit coming from a mile away. Lately it seems like Cesar is off. I saw his friend and fellow trainer Cheri Lucas work with a dog, a Pit, and get much faster, better results than Cesar did. She immediately got the dog to calm down and listen to her. He had trouble with the dog before he went with Cheri. I wonder if his personal upheaval has affected his job.


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## selzer

stealthq said:


> This was actually one of the things I was thinking as I read through this thread. I've known a dog (an outside barn dog) where if you offered her food, she'd go right for you and if you weren't fast enough dropping it and getting away, you'd get bitten.
> 
> The bite hurt, but I don't think she ever drew blood. She was a short-legged jack russell and didn't seem to want to do damage, just tag you and scare you away from the food. I will say that she shocked the heck out of everyone who ever tried to feed her other than by putting down a bowl and getting the heck away from it.
> 
> As far as I could tell, she never gave any indication she was going to go for you. No whine, no growl, no tensing up. Little jerk would stand there with the same eager/excited look and wagging tail as when she thought someone was going to wave a coach whip so she could chase the end. I'd swear she thought it was a game.


She may have been conditioned to do this. My dad does something with Cujo that drives me bonkers. After he eats he gets his treat. My dad has bad hands -- very thin skin always bleeding, very sensitive to detergents. Well he holds the treat in between his thumb and first finger and gets the dog amped up, and then just as the dog is taking it -- Dad wants him to take it, Dad, jerks his hand up and out of the way kind of flipping the treat, but still very close to the dog's mouth.

I tell him if he does not want to get bitten, just lay it in the palm. Cujo will take it nice. Frankly, I think Cujo would take it nice if he just held his hand steady and reminded the dog, GENTLE. or Gentle With My Fingers. His ripping it upward at the last moment to avoid a bite, is so wrong, it is going to get him bitten. But what can you tell your dad? He does not want to lay it in is palm because he doesn't want dog spit on him. 

Ok. 

Dog spit. 

The chicken jerky treats probably have salmonella on them. 

You have to wash your hands anyway. 

Uhg!


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## GSDElsa

Yawn, another CM thread. I don't like him but that is definitely not abuse. He totally had it coming in this instance, but what the dog did was a huge over-reaction as well. Sounds like the owner's got dealt a bad card and they simply made it worse and worse out of ignorance. 

What I don't like is that people are saying they could have easily fixed the dog doing something else. Come one people, that MIGHT be the case....but just as easily under your guidance the dog could end up PTS.


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## HillaryCarolCrockettCher

I would react with dominance also towards a resource guarder. This dog is not afraid, it is pushing humans around and getting away with it. Alphas eat first, alphas provide the food, they can take it away, end of story. The dog needs to be reminded of his place in the pack, ignored, not rewarded, moved to a place "outside" the pack "territory" (house) fed only by hand (wearing gloves if needed) until it submits and begins to display subordinate behaviour to all members of the household, then its privileges can be gradually restored. I like Ceasar and I think he has done many wonderful things with dogs, even if some of his methods arnt what some people like, nobody is going to please every body, and nobody is going to be perfect 100% of the time. I watch his show and have learned a lot of things but I dont follow his or any one elses word to the letter, I try and find out what works with whatever solutions I find that I think are worth trying.


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## msvette2u

> This dog is not afraid, it is pushing humans around and getting away with it.


So...is your goal to make the dog afraid...? I'm confused.


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## HillaryCarolCrockettCher

no its not to make it afraid, its to get it to respect me as the alpha, by taking away privileges (including the right to eat out of a bowl and not my hand) and ignoring it (waiting for it to come to me for attention, food, etc, displaying submissive behaviour) 
The video has me scratching my head Ill admit, even if directly confronting the dog was the solution its not a great thing to be suggesting clients to do. I wouldnt call it abuse though or discredit Ceasar for the one instance though. I think because its a show he was trying for some dramatic affect and quick solution and it backfired in this case.

Edited to add: I give him major credit for allowing this situation to air on his show. He had to have known later that he was going to look dumb, but he didnt edit this out. Maybe he kept it in so viewers could learn from his mistake.


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## msvette2u

FTR many many folks including myself (not a Cesar fan, admittedly) have said it is NOT abuse.

But I agree to what you say - it lost it's privilege to eat out of a bowl, by guarding it.

The rest can be addressed this way including resource guarding food - Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Or, even give the dog a kong toy or puzzle toy with it's meal


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## Olivers mama

msvette2u said:


> The rest can be addressed this way including resource guarding food - Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
> 
> Or, even give the dog a kong toy or puzzle toy with it's meal


OK OK - I'll get the above-named "Mind Games"... By the time I finish all these books, DVDs, etc - in addition to those I've already read/watched - Ziva will be 10.

IMO only - she would not get a treat (kong toy or puzzle) with her meal if her biggest concern was not eating the meal, but eating me. I'm just sayin'.

For those of us still trying to understand our dogs, it's really hard to ascertain the "best" training method. Even all you with lots of experience can't agree on a method. It's more a blend of what's out there. But it MUST work with the individual dog's personality - this is not a One-Size-Fits-All, IMO.

Which is, of course, why my library now has so much dog-training stuff in it....& why our dog is still messed up - there's too much info in which to wade.


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## Cassidy's Mom

HillaryCarolCrockettCher said:


> I would react with dominance also towards a resource guarder.


Sorry, but that is the worst possible method for dealing with resource guarding. The best way is to PREVENT if from happening in the first place, but if you missed that boat there are other, much better, ways of fixing this problem. Maybe not with that particular dog, since this situation was allowed to build over a period of years, but if they had dealt with this at the first signs that it might be becoming an issue, who knows? A dog who trusts you has no need to guard resources. Dominating a dog and forcing them to submit does not build trust. 



> This dog is not afraid, it is pushing humans around and getting away with it.


Baloney. That dog is showing numerous signs of fear, discomfort, and avoidance, which Cesar ignores while he continues to advance in a confrontational way.



> *Alphas eat first, alphas provide the food, they can take it away, end of story. The dog needs to be reminded of his place in the pack,* ignored, not rewarded, moved to a place "outside" the pack "territory" (house) *fed only by hand (wearing gloves if needed)* until it submits and begins to display subordinate behaviour to all members of the household, *then its privileges can be gradually restored*.


I agree with the parts of your post that I bolded. You can assert your leadership by controlling the resources, (NILIF is great) but you don't need to move your dog out of the house and ignore them, nor do you need to force your dog to "submit" in order to ellicit subordinate behavior.


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## Cassidy's Mom

HillaryCarolCrockettCher said:


> Edited to add: I give him major credit for allowing this situation to air on his show. He had to have known later that he was going to look dumb, but he didnt edit this out. Maybe he kept it in so viewers could learn from his mistake.


Or for the drama.


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## HillaryCarolCrockettCher

If it isnt dominant behaviour, what would an alpha wolf do to a member of its pack that attacked it when it tried to eat before it? I would imagine that there would be a fight and the food-aggressive subordinate would be chased off. I dont see how resource guarding can be anything other than dominant and aggressive, due to the fact that a dog who is not wanting conflict or is frightened would try and avoid the confrontation. Seeing how the dog tenses up when Ceasar approaches the bowl seems like a dominant response. The dog tried to intimidate before moving away. Watching the dog, it never lets down, it wants to go back to the food. It acts avoidant but I dont believe it for a second. The way he went after Ceasar tells me the dog was sitting there boiling over being chased off the food. It saw an opportunity to attack and reassume the position of authority over Ceasar and it took it. Throughout the video I did not see the dog let down once. I saw a dog waiting for another chance to challenge authority. I saw no fear- discomfort, sure, its authority was being challenged and it had to act like it was backing down at times, and I saw some avoidance too but I also saw a dog who was watching and waiting to switch gears at first opportunity. The dog never really backs down, only enters a standoff of sorts where it puts on an act in an attempt to get rid of Ceasar so he can go back to what he was doing with relish(eating) I see a very smart dog who knows how to act. Just my observation. I dont like Ceasars approach to this dog, although I defend Ceasar because I like a lot of the other things he does and everyone makes mistakes that they think of a better solution to later. This dog needs to be outsmarted not bullied IMO.


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## msvette2u

Resource guarding to humans is lack of trust. RG is created by the human sticking their hands in the bowl when the dog eats. Or hitting it with a broom which the owners in this vid claimed they did.

If I only had ONE method of training to choose it'd be MIND GAMES (link above) because it's so simple.

You don't make a dog comfortable and relaxed while eating by taunting it and taking it's bowl. That makes a dog more insecure.

The "trade up" method and/or feeding by hand from the beginning gets them to trust you more.

The ONLY reason you ought to be near a dog's bowl/face while it's eating is to stick more YUMMY STUFF into it.

If it's eating kibble, give it freshly broiled chicken pieces, or even a heated up hot dog cut up into bits.
It'll be happy you're near the bowl by the end of the session!!


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## Olivers mama

I'd like to take a broom to the owners, but that's another story! 

We're lucky - haven't had the RG, especially with regards to food. From Day 1, when the Rescue people brought Ziva out to us, I (stupidly) put my hand in her bowl. I was lucky - all she did was **** her head to 1 side, as if to say WTH? She's never guarded her toys, either. The "only" time she snaps is when a FEmale reaches for her collar. (1 reason I'm looking for a female trainer, even tho the last one was an arse...)

So - when you're treat-training, you not only reward with treats when they do something good, but also when they don't do something bad? (Wish my parents would've used this method, in that case!)


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## Mrs.K

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Or for the drama.


I don't think it's up to him to make that decision.


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## msvette2u

> So - when you're treat-training, you not only reward with treats when they do something good, but also when they don't do something bad? (Wish my parents would've used this method, in that case!)


In a manner of speaking, yes, I think you could say that.
So a dog doesn't jump up on you, instead chooses to sit for attention, GOOD dog and praise...

You are much more successful in rewarding the NON-bad behavior and replacing the bad behavior with a "good one" than in just punishing the bad behavior.


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## selzer

HillaryCarolCrockettCher said:


> If it isnt dominant behaviour, what would an alpha wolf do to a member of its pack that attacked it when it tried to eat before it? I would imagine that there would be a fight and the food-aggressive subordinate would be chased off. I dont see how resource guarding can be anything other than dominant and aggressive, due to the fact that a dog who is not wanting conflict or is frightened would try and avoid the confrontation. Seeing how the dog tenses up when Ceasar approaches the bowl seems like a dominant response. The dog tried to intimidate before moving away. Watching the dog, it never lets down, it wants to go back to the food. It acts avoidant but I dont believe it for a second. The way he went after Ceasar tells me the dog was sitting there boiling over being chased off the food. It saw an opportunity to attack and reassume the position of authority over Ceasar and it took it. Throughout the video I did not see the dog let down once. I saw a dog waiting for another chance to challenge authority. I saw no fear- discomfort, sure, its authority was being challenged and it had to act like it was backing down at times, and I saw some avoidance too but I also saw a dog who was watching and waiting to switch gears at first opportunity. The dog never really backs down, only enters a standoff of sorts where it puts on an act in an attempt to get rid of Ceasar so he can go back to what he was doing with relish(eating) I see a very smart dog who knows how to act. Just my observation. I dont like Ceasars approach to this dog, although I defend Ceasar because I like a lot of the other things he does and everyone makes mistakes that they think of a better solution to later. This dog needs to be outsmarted not bullied IMO.


I really hate CM's show because of his over-use of the idea of dominance and submission. You would think that every problem is rooted in that. And that all dogs were dominant to the point of no return. If that were the case everyone would HAVE to use NILIF all the time, and always have our dogs under our toe every minute. Not so. 

And the wolf baloney. Our dogs are NOT wolves they are dogs. It is kind of saying that we should be acting like gorillas as we are both primates. A wolf will go for days without eating, and when they eat, there may be some posturing etc, but a strong pack leader isn't ever going to have a subordinate wolf argue about a particular piece of meat. Because the strong pack leader has with his eyes established the kingdom, not with his teeth. It is a weak leader that has to resort to physical or even vocal threats to maintain order. Fights will weaken the predator, and that could be fatal. A wolf that is maintaining his pack position with tooth and nail won't last long.

Dog Owners CREATE food aggression and resource guarding. Why are you messing with his dish anyway? The dog wants his food, why are you coming near him. Put the food down and walk away. 

Yes, if you have a toddler, you maybe will have to feed a dog in his crate. But most dogs AREN'T food aggressive in the first place. The way you know a dog is food aggressive is to get up close and personal to their food dish, and the dog growls, snaps, or even bites -- never ok. But we do not know what happened to the dog to make it so concerned about its food. If a dog has been left to starve and has been rescued, yes it might end up being very worried about its food. If a dog is in a pack of dogs, and contained by humans, but left to scrounge his food out of the community feeding bin, the dog might become food aggressive. Sure. 

The answer is not to stand there and take the food or item away, or pretend to take the item away. That reinforces to the dog that his food is in danger. I would either crate the dog, set the food down, and then release the dog; or I would have the dog sit and stay, put the food in the crate, and then crate the dog. After either, I would simply walk away. I would not try to remove the food or dish. If the dog started guarding the empty dish, I would put another dish in there with food. I would put the food on the other side of the room or in another crate while I remove the first dish. And I would let the dog learn to trust me not to take his food. I would not force the dog to trust me not to take his food. 

Ok, if the dog is choking, or trying to eat something it got a hold of. I just haven't had a dog I couldn't take anything away from. So I guess all of my dogs aren't dominant. But if I had the problem, I would not try to solve the problem by hovering over it, and trying to force the dog to believe I had every right to his food. Once I give a dog something, it is theirs. I don't snag it back. 

And lastly, I really don't want a dog to show me submission. Sorry, but I would be ashamed if a dog rolled over and showed me its belly, tail tucked. Who wants an animal to be afraid of you. Respect. Yeah, we all need a little R E S P E C T don't we. 

My dogs respect me after a fashion. They do what I want, I can touch them anywhere, I can dig something out of their mouth, or put a thermometer in their butt. I like to think that they feel they can trust me not to hurt them, and that is a form of respect. 

You can earn respect of a sort with a club. The Neanderthal with biggest, fiercest club is respected by the rest of the tribe. I would say that the vast majority of dogs do not need to be forced to respect their owners though. You can rule as a tyrant, but you don't have to be a tyrant to rule. And the best respect is the kind you earn.


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## Cassidy's Mom

HillaryCarolCrockettCher said:


> If it isnt dominant behaviour, what would an alpha wolf do to a member of its pack that attacked it when it tried to eat before it? I would imagine that there would be a fight and the food-aggressive subordinate would be chased off. I dont see how resource guarding can be anything other than dominant and aggressive, due to the fact that a dog who is not wanting conflict or is frightened would try and avoid the confrontation. Seeing how the dog tenses up when Ceasar approaches the bowl seems like a dominant response. The dog tried to intimidate before moving away. Watching the dog, it never lets down, it wants to go back to the food. It acts avoidant but I dont believe it for a second. The way he went after Ceasar tells me the dog was sitting there boiling over being chased off the food. It saw an opportunity to attack and reassume the position of authority over Ceasar and it took it. Throughout the video I did not see the dog let down once. I saw a dog waiting for another chance to challenge authority. I saw no fear- discomfort, sure, its authority was being challenged and it had to act like it was backing down at times, and I saw some avoidance too but I also saw a dog who was watching and waiting to switch gears at first opportunity. The dog never really backs down, only enters a standoff of sorts where it puts on an act in an attempt to get rid of Ceasar so he can go back to what he was doing with relish(eating) I see a very smart dog who knows how to act.


Well, I can't say I agree with any of this post.  It's sort of like that saying - If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. If you think every dog issue is about dominance and submission, then your solution is always going to involve attempts to dominate the dog, even if that might make the problem worse, which is this case it clearly did.


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## msvette2u

> - If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. If you think every dog issue is about dominance and submission, then your solution is always going to involve attempts to dominate the dog, even if that might make the problem worse,


But if one is a diehard Cesar fan, this is what will inevitably ensue.

In fact...maybe Cesar created some dominance theory folks, but I bet just as many had those ideas anyway and he just "confirmed" them.


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## Olivers mama

msvette & selzer - I really wish you guys could've talked with my dad years ago... He was the Neanderthal, altho I must admit, I only 'got it' when I deserved it & have never been in serious trouble, so I guess it worked. (Years later, when I looked around at others, I actually thanked him for his method of upbringing.)

But I digress - for, as child-rearing practices have changed, so too, have dog training methods... I still maintain that it's a big difference working with an adult Rescue vs raising a pup. If I had to do over again, I'm not so sure what I'd do.:crazy:


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## Cassidy's Mom

Olivers mama said:


> I still maintain that it's a big difference working with an adult Rescue vs raising a pup. If I had to do over again, I'm not so sure what I'd do.:crazy:


Oh, absolutely! I've never had a rescue, adult or otherwise, but having a dog from puppyhood allows you to guide all their training and do all the socialization the way you want, rather than it being done (or not done) before you got the dog, and having to unteach bad habits, etc. MUCH easier!


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## blackmeadow

Is it just me, or was sticking his hand out towards the dog (kind of getting his hand in her face) a bad move? I don't think crouching down like that and continuing to stare, make moves at her and such is a good idea, especially when she (to me) seemed to be doing appeasement gestures? :[ And the threat really hadn't been removed... HE was the threat, and he was still crouched, pointing at her, etc. Just seemed to me like she had tried to submit, but felt like he was still threatening her. Doesn't mean he was, but for someone who is supposed to be an expert, I don't think his body language/posture indicated that he was no longer a threat to her. Maybe if he'd stood up and just stood there, without gesturing at her? Just a thought; I'm still getting used to really watching dogs and thinking about this stuff, so I could be wrong. 

Not sure I would call THIS clip animal abuse, because sometimes you do have to get physical to get an attacking animal off you... but I really don't think Milan is all he's cracked up to be. It all kind of confirms my dislike for him.

And the thing is, the dog in the first clip didn't automatically go for a bite. She growled, then backed away while licking her lips and looking away. Then she laid down and panted. Then he gestured... and that's when she bit. What do you think the dog in the second clip would have done, had anyone stepped between the dog and the bowl, crouched down, stared at him, etc? I think the second dog would have snapped just as easily as the first. It's just my opinion.

Nor do I think the dog in the first clip was pretending to submit just to have a crack at Milan. Are dogs really capable of pretending to be submissive? I don't know. The way the dog was acting, she seemed to be genuine in her desire to avoid Milan. 

Obviously, the dog has problems and those problems need to be fixed. I hope the dog has gotten better about it since then. Even though NO training method is the be all end all for every dog, I think Milan's methods can often be unnecessarily stressful and dangerous.

Personal story... My dog used to food guard. If he had a treat, he'd clamp down on it and not let go. At least, he used to before I taught him the "leave it" command... and showed him that the only time I will take his food is if I HAVE to, like he's eating something he shouldn't. I can take food out of his mouth now. He grabbed a slice of ham that fell off the counter, and I shoved my fingers down his throat to get it out (he is allergic and would have been so sick). I feed him out of my hand daily, I hold his bowl while he eats, I make him work for food, if I have to take something he is eating I will snag an acceptable treat and get him to "trade", etc. I can't imagine what would have happened, had I shoved my hands in his bowl or mouth when I first got him. It took years, but it worked.


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## Cassidy's Mom

msvette2u said:


> But if one is a diehard Cesar fan, this is what will inevitably ensue


Yes, unfortunately that seems to be true. :headbang:


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## Olivers mama

Cassidy's Mom - we thought we were doing the 'right' thing by looking at a Rescue. Wanted to give an otherwise unwanted animal a chance. And, altho we love her to death & she's turned into a physically gorgeous dog, she's even more stubborn than hubby!  I'd thought we'd be further than we are after 2 years, but she's still a Work-in-Progress. But - most of her physical scars are now covered by thick fur, she's gained 18 lbs & has the energy of the Eveready Bunny - so we feel good about that. A BYB dog, we're sure (she's very tall for a female). But she's been an experience - way more difficult than the Irish Setters + Rottie I had. 

(My lack of patience is probably made worse by my chemo - so I add a mai tai to the mix...that's Treat-Training ME!  )


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## Jack's Dad

Cassidy's Mom said:


> If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail. If you think every dog issue is about dominance and submission, then your solution is always going to involve attempts to dominate the dog, even if that might make the problem worse, which is this case it clearly did.


The reverse is also true. Whatever method people believe in, they see all solutions through that filter.

Debbie, How would you have handled that dog under the same circumstances? How long would it take? Would you have removed the dog? How? What would it cost? If the dog was helped, what if the owners didn't follow up on it? Then what?

I believe in comparing apples to apples. How to raise a dog or teach a dog are not the same as having to confront an aggressive dog. Regardless of the cause of the dogs aggression.

I've said before I don't always agree with Cesar but he does what he does.

Until someone comes along who deals with these aggressive dogs often, then to me it is all Monday morning quarterbacking.

Too bad all the people who could do a better job with these type dogs don't hang up a shingle and go to work on it. Think of all the dogs that could be helped.

Cesar wouldn't be needed. He could stay home and count his money.


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## Cassidy's Mom

HillaryCarolCrockettCher said:


> If it isnt dominant behaviour....


I'm curious why you're convinced that resource guarding is dominant behavior. Where did you get this idea from, and why are you so invested in it? How would you describe "dominance" as it pertains to dogs? Wouldn't you expect dogs labeled as dominant to behave in certain ways in general, outside the presence of food or other valued resources? And if a dog did _not_ act that way in general, would that persuade you that there may be other reasons for resource guarding?


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## Cassidy's Mom

Andy, no time right now, I'll reply later....


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## msvette2u

Now Jacks...do you know how many calls we get, a day, to take in dogs? Sometimes it's owner surrender, but it's a training issue.
I help them with training, and advise them based on a lot of the things I've said and done here. Mind Games, NILIF, etc.

Above all I'd have had those owners toss out the broom and gain a new understanding of dogs. 
I'd have started with MIND GAMES, and putting her food in a GAME/TOY/PUZZLE. A kong definitively and if that wasn't enough of a change, then the puzzles you stick food in.

They needed to change her outlook on food and reduce the tension in the house.

They admitted food was her only issue, I read it somewhere along the way.
But they'd have been "boot camping" her, for sure.

It can be done. And not all of us who say we could have done better, just type. We DO.
I'm assisting the woman I thought was going to bring back the dog, she's not bringing the dog back now, she's going to be working on training her, thank God. But point is, we actually DO in the communities we are in.

Just because we don't have a TV show doesn't mean we sit here all day typing 
And I'm no legend in my own mind, but I do assist when I am able, in whichever situation presents itself.



> Cesar wouldn't be needed. He could stay home and count his money.


PS. Cesar is needed for those who think they have to punish and make their dog SUBMIT, and break their spirits before they can be worked with. 
For those who want to learn new/better ways, there's folks like me, Cassidy's mom, Victoria stillwell, Karen Pryor, etc.


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> For those who want to learn new/better ways, there's folks like me, Cassidy's mom, Victoria stillwell, Karen Pryor, etc.


Victoria Stillwell and Karen Pryor. 

That's the filter through which you view things. I'm not arguing right or wrong or even those peoples methods but there are many methods out there.

I don't believe the average pet owner is going to spend the time and money it may take.

The answer I never get on these threads is to the questions of How long? and How much?
People on this forum are really into their dogs. They may be willing to spend hours a day with their aggressive dog or spend $75.00 an hour or so for individual training. Sometimes that training can go on for a year or more or the life of the dog.

I don't think most average Joe/Jane pet owners will do this.


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## msvette2u

> there are many methods out there.


This is true but most the time the dog is treated like a small human with fur instead of a dog. And because of that, dog thinks he can rule the world so to speak. I mean...run then world.

He's doing it now. He barks, people jump.
If instated early enough - and often enough - these things can help.

NOW - this is golden here - people think they must take dog to training. While that's a good thing to aspire to, here's reality. Between work and money issues, people don't think they CAN. And there's others as who've posted here, who have read all these books but feel helpless to implement the things...THIS is simple.

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong 
Short of a thyroid disorder (fairly UNcommon) here's what you can do and I GUARANTEE you WILL see improvement!
DO them today. Tonight at dinner. Tomorrow at breakfast. DO them!
It is SIMPLE to do, no special equipment, no classes, nothing is needed!
******************
*Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!*

Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.

Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.

*Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches*!

Dogs that never have to do anything to earn their living (their food) can become very spoilt. They see no reason to obey their owner at any time because they can get what they want (food) without any conditions at all.

*At least four times a week feed your dog his entire meal from your hand. Divide your dog’s meal up into 15-25 parts (depending on the size of your dog, this might be anything from individual kibbles to small handfuls). Have your dog perform a simple command for every part of his meal. It doesn’t have to be complex--it can be sits, downs, stand, shake hands, salute, roll over, etc.*

If your dog is overly rough about how he takes food, work on his eating-from-your-hand skills with his first meal fed this way. If he tries to grab the food roughly from you, pull your hand away, give him a short time out, then offer the food again. If your dog refuses to carry out known commands, quietly put his food away until the next regularly scheduled meal. It’s completely up to him whether he eats or not--don’t try to convince him. Let him discover where his own best interests lie!

*Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!*

Dogs sometimes use urination and defecation to mark their own territories. Some males are particularly persistent about urine marking as many places as possible (some bitches do this as well). I call this “pee-mail”--dogs send social messages to other dogs with their urine. Dogs do not need to assert their ownership over a large territory; some dogs who mark the same places on a regular basis become quite territorial.

Urine marking is different from regular urination--the dog sniffs something (often a vertical object or a place where another dog has peed), then moves forward a little and sprinkles that place with a few drops of urine.

If your dog is in the habit of marking during walks on lead, take control of his pee-mail. Give him (or her) two chances to urinate at home and then insist that your dog keep up with you during your walk. You may have to use a head halter to give you control over your dog’s nose.

*Mind Game #4: Patience!*

Dogs that are overly pushy and dogs that are too fearful share one important personality trait: they tend to be impatient. They move, act and make decisions too quickly. Having your dog do a thirty minute down stay every day helps teach your dog how to be patient and just relax.

*First teach your dog to do a down. Then put him on leash, have him do a down and run the leash under your own foot. Leave your dog enough slack to lie comfortably but not enough to be comfortable sitting or standing.*

If your dog gets up, just stay quiet and keep pressure on the leash. Let your dog discover how to be comfortable. Your dog will eventually relax and just hang out.

If you do this regularly, your dog will start to relax sooner and sooner.

*Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!*

Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority. As almost every dog could tell you, the best spots to sleep in any house are the furniture and human beds.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog lacks respect for you, prohibit your dog from getting up on the furniture and on your bed. If he doesn’t respect your “Off!” command, attach a houseline to move him when he doesn’t feel like moving. Don’t be harsh, just firm and matter of fact.

If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.

If your dog sneaks up on the bed with you after you fall asleep, put him in a crate or shut him out of the bedroom.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog is fearful or anxious, it is important to get your dog out of the bedroom. British trainer John Rogerson has noted that he has never seen a case of separation anxiety in a dog that routinely sleeps outside the bedroom. I have seen a few cases of separation anxiety in dogs that didn’t sleep in the owner’s bedroom but *did* sleep with one or more other dogs. Removing the other dogs did trigger anxiety, so make sure your dog is sleeping in a room alone.

*Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!*

Dogs can take control of a space by lying in the middle of the traffic pattern or by lying in the doorway. Anxious dogs are trying to prevent their owner from leaving, dogs with leadership ambitions are trying to control their owner’s movement. In dog society, the lesser ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.

If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.

Don’t ask your dog to move or warn your dog that you are about to make him move. Make it your dog’s responsibility to keep an eye on you and to move as needed to accommodate you.

If you think your dog might bite you, consult a trainer or behaviorist with experience dealing with aggressive dogs ASAP! In the meantime, put a buckle or limited-slip collar on your dog and attach a houseline. Use the houseline to move your dog.

*Mind Game #7: Follow the Leader!*

Teaching your dog to follow you teaches your dog to keep an eye on you and to accommodate your movements. You’re an important person in your dog’s life and if he doesn’t know it, it’s time for him to learn it.

*Tie your dog’s leash to your belt or around your waist for at least one hour each day. Go about your every day business without paying particular attention to your dog. Don’t warn your dog you are about to move, don’t pay attention to your dog, don’t coax him to come with you. Make it his responsibility to follow his leader (you!) around.*

It’s inconvenient to do--but the more often you can do this, the faster you will see a change in your dog’s behavior.

*Mind Game #8: Take Control of Your Dog’s Body!*

Dogs prefer to be touched on their own terms. Some dogs want to be petted constantly and some dogs would prefer only to be handled by invitation only.

If your dog solicits petting constantly, stop all free petting. Insist that your dog earn each petting session by performing one or more commands and keep each petting session short in duration.

If your dog doesn’t enjoy being handled, make sure that you handle your dog all over every day. Make sure you can touch and examine every part of your dog’s body, including his ears and between his pads.

If it gives you more confidence in handling, wear gloves until you feel safe handling your dog. If you think there is a high probability that your dog will bite you, seek professional help!

*Mind Game #9: S/he Who Owns the Most Toys Wins!*

In dog society, the dog able to control the most resources is usually the highest ranked. Giving a dog lots of toys that no one else touches can give that dog a mistaken impression of his own rank in the world. Overly confident dogs can become aggressive resource guarders and overly fearful dogs feel stressed by the enormity of their responsibilities.

Pick up and put out of your dog’s reach all of the toys, including chew toys. Hold one play session per day with your dog where you bring out one toy and use it to play with your dog for 10-15 minutes.

If your dog declines to play with you, put the toy away without comment.

*Mind Game #10: Daily Chores!*

Remind your dog that he works for his living by holding two short daily obedience sessions. For 5-10 minutes in each session, run through all the commands your dog knows or teach him new ones.

These can be combined with hand feeding sessions.

*Mind Game #11: A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body!*

Dogs need physical exercise to stay physically and mentally healthy. Make sure your dog is getting 30 minutes of aerobic exercise every other day. Aerobic exercise is any exercise that makes your dog pant steadily. Depending on your dog’s size and fitness level, this can be on lead walking, jogging, road work, treadmill, retrieve games, swimming or pulling.

It’s difficult for many people to walk fast enough to give a medium or large dog aerobic exercise (any dog over about 25 pounds). If on lead walking is the only option, you can increase the ooomph factor by teaching your dog to pull a drag from a nonrestrictive harness. I start small with loops of rope and work up to motorcycle tires (depending on the size and condition of the dog). This has an added advantage for conformation people of building the dog’s rear.

Avoid retrieve games if your dog doesn’t play nicely. Playing nicely means respecting your space when you have possession of the object (in other words, not leaping on you to rip it out of your hands), bringing the object directly back to you and allowing you to take the object out of his mouth.

Make sure your dog is getting a high quality diet with moderate amounts of protein and fat. I believe that a homemade diet based on raw ingredients (meats and veggies) is healthiest for dogs. There are high quality kibbles on the market for those who prefer to feed a commercial diet. Money saved on cheap kibble often gets spent at the vet, so there’s no point in trying to economize with cheap dog food.

*Mind Game #12: Rewards From Daily Life!*

All dogs have things that they enjoy doing. Earning these daily pleasures can help your dog learn confidence and compliance.

It might include things like going out in the yard, going for a walk, being fed, going for a ride in the car, being groomed, being petted, getting scratched in that spot that is always itchy, etc. Before you let your dog have any of the things on that list, have your dog perform a known command, then reward him with the intended activity. If he refuses to do the behavior, don’t comment, just walk away, wait for five to ten minutes and try again.

Play as many of the Mind Games as you can for at least a month. If your dog’s attitude has improved, slowly start dropping some of the games. I recommend that you keep the first game (No More Kibble From Heaven!) and the last game (Rewards From Daily Life!) for life. You may decide to keep playing more or all of the games. If your dog’s attitude starts to get worse again, re-institute the game you most recently dropped for at least another month.

Mind Games Checklist

¨ Medical exam, including thyroid check

¨ Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!
¨ Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!
¨ Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!
¨ Mind Game #4: Patience!
¨ Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!
¨ Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!
¨ Mind Game #7: Follow the Leader!
¨ Mind Game #8: Take Control Of Your Dog’s Body!
¨ Mind Game #9: S/he Who Owns the Most Toys Wins!
¨ Mind Game #10: Daily Chores!
¨ Mind Game #11: A Healthy Mind in a Healthy Body!
¨ Mind Game #12: Rewards From Daily Life!


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## Olivers mama

msvette - hope you don't mind, I printed the Mind Rules.

But Jack's dad is right - & we're a good example. We both spent dozens of hours reading newly-purchased books, watching training DVDs suggested by the forum, watching Stillwell & Milan...we wasted $2500 on 1 of those Board & Train places right after we got her - out of a suggestion we got. That was $$ wasted (without going into detail). Then off to yet another "personal trainer" suggested by the vet - blew $1500 before I darn near jumped her fence & smacked her (when I saw her take the dog from a full stand to a down using a horrendous yank on the prong collar). Hundreds of dollars on (unnecessary) medical tests - just to rule out any medical problem.

2 years later - the dog still bites me. OB @ 99% with treats. Without treats = < 5%. If she could flip us off, she would. This is NOT a dumb dog. Ex: This is a dog who knows the difference between 'Speak' - 'Say Please' - 'Inside Voice' when she wants something. Her life is almost 100% NILIF now - but it took thousands of dollars, hundreds of man-hours, & lots of mistakes to get here. To be honest, I don't know many people who would've done this for a Rescue & I don't know why hubby didn't divorce me. (At least we never used a broom.) We should get an 'E' for 'Effort', but mostly what we get is mockery or put-downs.

In other words, we're working at it - but we've paid the price for wrong decisions.:crazy:


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## msvette2u

Print away, it is not mine, by any means!!!
And show it to friends!
I'm curious if your girl gets better when you use it so be sure to let me know 

I've not seen a dog yet who didn't respond positively to it, and that's saying a lot because I'm an "older style" trainer as a rule, and wouldn't have thought, 10yrs. ago, this type thing would work.
I mean, it was never a thought...


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## Jack's Dad

Olivers mama said:


> msvette - hope you don't mind, I printed the Mind Rules.
> 
> But Jack's dad is right - & we're a good example. We both spent dozens of hours reading newly-purchased books, watching training DVDs suggested by the forum, watching Stillwell & Milan...we wasted $2500 on 1 of those Board & Train places right after we got her - out of a suggestion we got. That was $$ wasted (without going into detail). Then off to yet another "personal trainer" suggested by the vet - blew $1500 before I darn near jumped her fence & smacked her (when I saw her take the dog from a full stand to a down using a horrendous yank on the prong collar). Hundreds of dollars on (unnecessary) medical tests - just to rule out any medical problem.
> 
> 2 years later - the dog still bites me. OB @ 99% with treats. Without treats = < 5%. If she could flip us off, she would. This is NOT a dumb dog. Ex: This is a dog who knows the difference between 'Speak' - 'Say Please' - 'Inside Voice' when she wants something. Her life is almost 100% NILIF now - but it took thousands of dollars, hundreds of man-hours, & lots of mistakes to get here. To be honest, I don't know many people who would've done this for a Rescue & I don't know why hubby didn't divorce me. (At least we never used a broom.) We should get an 'E' for 'Effort', but mostly what we get is mockery or put-downs.
> 
> In other words, we're working at it - but we've paid the price for wrong decisions.:crazy:


Thanks for sharing your story and making the point I've been trying to better than I could.

Millions of dog owners do not have that kind of money or time and the dog would be PTS or passed on down the line to become the next persons problem.

To me Cesar is like the emergency room is for people. 
The ER stops the bleeding and patches the patient up but that's just the beginning. The patient then has to take care of their health.

People use Cesar or others to stop the behavior, and change the dogs state of mind. 
If the owners don't step up after, then no training method will work.

The point being that you don't blame ER's for people getting sick. It's not Cesars fault that dogs can be either genetically messed up or their owners can cause them to be screwed up.

He is a stop gap on the way to the vets to be PTS.

I have a friend who has a 15 month old boxer who has a torn ACL and they want $2500 dollars to fix it. He is going to do it because he is crazy about his dog but he and his wife did consider euthanasia because of the cost. Nothing else wrong with the dog.

That is real life not like it is for some on the board who will bear any expense even to the detriment of their family or finances.

I am aware that Cesar doesn't fix every dog and the ER doesn't save every patient.


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Victoria Stillwell and Karen Pryor.
> 
> That's the filter through which you view things. I'm not arguing right or wrong or even those peoples methods but there are many methods out there.
> 
> I don't believe the average pet owner is going to spend the time and money it may take.
> 
> The answer I never get on these threads is to the questions of How long? and How much?
> People on this forum are really into their dogs. They may be willing to spend hours a day with their aggressive dog or spend $75.00 an hour or so for individual training. Sometimes that training can go on for a year or more or the life of the dog.
> 
> I don't think most average Joe/Jane pet owners will do this.


I am sorry, but as long as it takes to earn the dog's trust and respect. 

If you are rescuing a dog, then you should understand that this dog's previous experience may not have been stellar. Fair and firm is fine. NILIF, ok. Dogs live in the present so really what we need to do is be the grown-up, and provide consistent and patient leadership and the dog will come around. 

No one can answer how long because no two dogs are alike.


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## msvette2u

> Millions of dog owners do not have that kind of money or time and the dog would be PTS or passed on down the line to become the next persons problem.


And that's why I tell them what I post here! They can implement it FREE. TODAY.
And start seeing results!

I mentioned earlier about a Basset that we adopted out 3yrs. ago that has bitten the boy twice. I never heard about it the 1st time. The 2nd time they wanted to bring the dog back but guess what?? Instating "MIND GAMES" and "NILIF" has changed that dog's outlook.

This isn't some psychobabble fluff, _this works._ 
It works because the dog is no longer biting this kid!

I mean. I don't know how to get it across, Cesar doesn't have to rush up there and fling the dog around, shove his hands in his bowl, smack it on the face or anything.

They've fixed it!

I'm finding it very ironic that you insist, "People don't have the time or money" when, What, do you think Cesar makes his way across the country into these folk's homes working his miracle magic and dominating all these dogs into submission!?

How many dogs daily are having issues and his show is on like, what, once a week??

Mind Games is free, it's here, any owner can perform it step by step, it's _now. _
Cesar? He's some guy on TV with a big head/big ego, and he's not gonna fix the average Joe's dog. They're gonna have to buck up and do it themselves, or get rid of the dog, I guess.


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> I'm finding it very ironic that you insist, "People don't have the time or money" when, What, do you think Cesar makes his way across the country into these folk's homes working his miracle magic and dominating all these dogs into submission!?
> 
> They're gonna have to buck up and do it themselves, or get rid of the dog, I guess.


Cesar make his money from the show and other things.

It's not ironic it's real and they do get rid of dogs. That is why you have a rescue and we euthanize dogs daily all over the country.
Perhaps a lot of people shouldn't have dogs at all but they do.

If Cesar retired tomorrow the problem would not change.

Selzer: Most of the people I have known that have rescued dogs, think they are helping but are really unaware of what they may be in for. 
So it's no surprise when adoptions from rescue or the humane society or wherever don't work out.

You may not like it but the forum is heavily weighted (as a dog forum should be) toward those who will go more than the extra mile in time and money spent on there dogs.

It's just not real in the neighborhoods I've lived in.

The point is that Cesar is not the problem or the solution.

He just does what he does and no one is required to like it.


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## gsdraven

Olivers mama said:


> I still maintain that it's a big difference working with an adult Rescue vs raising a pup. If I had to do over again, I'm not so sure what I'd do.:crazy:


Not really. I've dealt with far more adult rescues than I have puppies (pretty much 20 to 1) and I still maintain that positive methods are far more successful at "correcting" bad habits than the force and bullying shown by Mr Milan. And I purposefully take on the "difficult" rescues.


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## msvette2u

Jacks, I am well aware. This is how you can help, if you so choose. AND if the owner is so inclined.
People give up dogs for far less than training or leadership issues.
Color of the dog vs. new furniture, moving, having a baby, etc. 
Anyway if you have issues, the very least to start with is the Mind Games page and information. 
It's easy and free. It doesn't require any more time than you'd normally spend with your dog.


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## Jack's Dad

msvette2u said:


> Jacks, I am well aware. This is how you can help, if you so choose. AND if the owner is so inclined.
> People give up dogs for far less than training or leadership issues.
> Color of the dog vs. new furniture, moving, having a baby, etc.
> Anyway if you have issues, the very least to start with is the Mind Games page and information.
> It's easy and free. It doesn't require any more time than you'd normally spend with your dog.


I don't have any issues with either of my GSD's. I have been responding to the thread. Except for the one BC rescue I had, there have not been issues with any of my dogs over the years.

I raised them pretty much like my kids. Some things you are allowed to do and some you aren't. I was consistent and it worked for me.
No Victoria or Cesar or Shirlee. 
Just me using discipline along with praise. No hand feeding dinner, no resource guarding, no fear reactivity, no individual training. Just dumb luck I guess.


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## msvette2u

I mean you're going on about how folks give up dogs all the time. If you're so inclined, offer them advice, this is what I do. This is what I advise our adopters, as well.


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## selzer

It really does not have to take tons of time and tons of money. 

Positive training methods do not have to be expensive. 

I trained Dolly who came out of an awful situation and wouldn't even look at me, had her elbow busted up and swelled up, and had been some nasty experiences with a 12 year old kid and adult dogs. 

I left her be for six months so she could heal and forget. I did not training during this time, and I did not try to force her to pay attention to me or even really engage with her. I gave it time. I didn't take her anywhere.

After six months, I took her to classes once a week for nine weeks. She went in heat and then summer classes were over. I did not do any training except in those one hour sessions. Then she had another six months off. 

This summer we went once a week except when she was in heat for a month. At the end of the summer -- about nine classes in all, we took a CGC test without any CGC-type practice. No practice on supervised separation, or handling the paws, ears, grooming, meet and greet with another dog, walking through a crowd -- none of that. We passed it very well.

I did not use NILIF, or mind games, or compulsion, or try to dominate this dog at all. I like to think I earned her trust. It did not take tons of time or tons of money. In fact, I think it maybe happened because I wasn't trying too hard. I was relaxed and expected her to come around. She solicits pets and praise and belly rubs now.

Maybe she was just a dog with a good temperament who had a couple of rocky bad months she needed to get over and did. Another person might have tried Cesar methods on her, and made things worse in my opinion.

Another example, Tori. Tori went to my brother at nine weeks and went to the puppy classes I paid for with her. I heard him and his buddy talking about alpha rolls with the trainer. He gave her back to me at 15 weeks saying she was defiant. There is not a defiant bone in her body. I was working with Heidi and Whitney at the time, so I left her be a little, and then started her in classes. Tori is fine. She wants scritches, is very loyal and affectionate. She has never had an accident in my house, and is really easy to work with and train. Cesar's methods did not work with her. 

People watch those shows and think they have to be alpha, and they create problems with their dogs, little puppies. People blame dominance on everything and treat everything as such, and his show is a big reason for that. My vet has it going in the waiting room all the time. Uhg.


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## martemchik

I don't think anyone is disputing the success of positive training methods. But what you have to consider is not all people have the ability to put a dog in a kennel/run for 6 months. And then start training. Like the dog in question was messed up...these owners had a little kid. They were regular people that weren't about to put their dog in a run for 6 months. They wanted a dog they could enjoy and do dog things with. Most people get a dog with the idea that it will be Air Bud or Beethoven or Rin Tin Tin, but when things go terribly wrong they have no idea what to do. IF they would've started with positive methods from day one, things would be different, but they didn't. They made tons of mistakes. They spoke with all the wrong people. And now they have an even bigger problem on their hands. And lets be serious...the dog in question would've been PTS in probably 90% of shelters without someone like msvette or selzer seeing the potential in a dog like that and possibly willing to put 6 months of work into it to fix it. But how many rescues can afford a 6 month rehab? Knowing that in 6 months they won't be able to save dozens of other dogs that might be much easier to place.

Cesar is a quick fix, or at least he tries to be. His methods seek to make the dog manageable...just like most pet training places still do. They do kill the drives of the dog, they make those dogs not want anything else in life but to sleep and then sit when asked. Most pet owners don't care that the dog is a robot, they just care its obedient and not dangerous.


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## gsdraven

martemchik said:


> Cesar is a quick fix, or at least he tries to be.


That's the thing. Cesar is not really a quick fix. What he does for his show is shut the dog down to the point that s/he is "submitting" but many stories are coming out that the dogs are just as bad if not worse later after he had left and the cameras are no longer rolling. 

In any kind of training or behavior work there is no "quick fix". You don't get lasting behavior changes overnight and anyone that tries to sell you on that is flat out lying.


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## Syaoransbear

gsdraven said:


> That's the thing. Cesar is not really a quick fix. What he does for his show is shut the dog down to the point that s/he is "submitting" but many stories are coming out that the dogs are just as bad if not worse later after he had left and the cameras are no longer rolling.


A lot of the time that's because the owners never bother to consistently enforce the training Cesar wants them to do. Dog training doesn't take nearly as long as owner training. He can't spend months working with one owner.

I think Cesar's dominance stuff is all just a bad translation on his part. I'm pretty sure what he wants to say is all dogs are opportunists, and if you act like a door mat your dog is going to treat you like a door mat. It's not because they want to be in charge, it's because they've found that disobeying or acting out has helped them get what they wanted at some point, and they are going to keep trying it until it consistently no longer works.

I'm neutral about Cesar, but I have seen him get results in real life. It would be a permanent fix if he were always in charge, but it's a temporary fix for the owners as they usually fall back into their bad training habits.


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## gsdraven

Syaoransbear said:


> I'm neutral about Cesar, but I have seen him get results in real life. It would be a permanent fix if he were always in charge, but it's a temporary fix for the owners as they usually fall back into their bad training habits.


You've seen his results in real life?

Good training is about making a permanent fix for the family not just if the trainer is in charge. Most training is about teaching the PEOPLE, not the dog. Dogs want to communicate with us and most want to live in harmony; not many choose to be in conflict.


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## martemchik

gsdraven said:


> That's the thing. Cesar is not really a quick fix. What he does for his show is shut the dog down to the point that s/he is "submitting" but many stories are coming out that the dogs are just as bad if not worse later after he had left and the cameras are no longer rolling.


Have you seen this in real life? Do you really trust those people that say that his methods failed? Did you watch them continue to do what he said to do? Or did they just give up and go back to their day to day life?

You seem to question HIS method and not if the owners continued to work their dog and follow his recommendations. I think most trainers will tell you that the number one reason for failure of any kind of training or rehab is that it is not continued at home. The handler just expect the one day a week to work without any kind of practice at work.


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## selzer

gsdraven said:


> You've seen his results in real life?
> 
> Good training is about making a permanent fix for the family not just if the trainer is in charge. Most training is about teaching the PEOPLE, not the dog. Dogs want to communicate with us and most want to live in harmony; not many choose to be in conflict.


Exactly. People are not trained overnight. So what if it takes six months to have a well-mannered pet? Really. Oh yeah we have resource guarding here with a toddler present. But it is ONLY over the food dish. Well then feed the dog in the basement, in the garage, in his crate. There are few things you truly cannot manage with some creativity, while you work on whatever the problem is. 

Once the dog does bite, then you know that the dog will bite, and the dog knows that the world does not come to a crashing halt. Will the dog bite again. I mean, when the dog bit Cesar what happened? Cesar moved off and away from his dish -- exactly what the dog wanted him to do. The bite worked. Maybe we do that a little faster next time. Maybe not. Maybe that dog would have never bit if Cesar hadn't pushed as far as he did.


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## RebelGSD

There are no quck fixes in life, not even for human behaviors, in spite of the fact that we communicate with humans more efficiently. Training results are not fully transferable to other individuals. Dogs obey orders from people who interact with them and train them - they don't respond in the same way to strangers. misleading people that this can be fixed quickly and permanently - in one day by a stranger - borders on unethical and potentially dangerous.
BTW I heard rumors that the some of the many dogs in his pack were sent out for training to different Sch trainers. I am unable to verify, anybody else knows about this.


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## RebelGSD

Sadly nowadays everybody watching this show is a dog expert and trainer, I am sick of listening to training nonsense people derive from his shows.


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## msvette2u

> I'm pretty sure what he wants to say is all dogs are opportunists,


No he doesn't want to say that, because if he did, he'd _say_ it.
He's steeped in dominance theory, which as you know has been disproven, about packs and wolves and all that. It is not unusual, as many people still believe that, with or without him.
I saw a real good example at the last adoption event, a bunch of teen volunteers for a rescue actually picked the dog up as if they were branding a calf, and the girl kneed him in the chest (now exposed) and put her full weight on him.
She came very close to being bitten.
It was horrible, and drew much attention and a woman who'd been talking to me marched straight over and told them how wrong it was, and their defense?? 
"If he was in a pack, this is what they'd do!"

So no, Cesar doesn't own the market on "dominance" and I'm sure it's exactly how he thinks. He claims dogs must be _made_ to submit. 

What is interesting is that before I knew about forums, or that what I was doing had a "name" (Positive reinforcement) we had to survive with some of these dogs that were brought to us, socially and mentally stunted.

I remember one of our very early rescues, a "Blood-doodle" (go figure) and she was so skittish.
She got outside in our fenced yard, and refused to be caught. I spent the better part of an hour, maybe more, trying to recapture her. Thank God she didn't jump out my yard!
Anyway - I purchased a lunge line and put that on her, and lo and behold, after taking her around on that line, and never letting her off of it, she bonded to us very quickly! 

That is why I know these methods work. Because I've seen it and used it time and time again, on dogs you'd never toss over on their backs, dogs who came to us every bit as messed up as that lab was, and we've worked with them doing "Mind Games" type stuff - because every other method was tried and failed. 
And when instructed to do those things in their new homes, they blossom.

I'm just sad so many still believe in the alpha/dominance stuff, because they and their dogs are missing out.


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## selzer

RebelGSD said:


> Sadly nowadays everybody watching this show is a dog expert and trainer, I am sick of listening to training nonsense people derive from his shows.


Amen.


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## gsdraven

martemchik said:


> You seem to question HIS method and not if the owners continued to work their dog and follow his recommendations. I think most trainers will tell you that the number one reason for failure of any kind of training or rehab is that it is not continued at home. The handler just expect the one day a week to work without any kind of practice at work.


I don't question his method. I KNOW his method doesn't work. I've tried it. I've had clients that try it. And as a professional trainer who focuses on behavior such as this video, I KNOW that there are better ways at fixing it. I've done it, recommended it and seen it work over and over again.

Yea, the owners play also play a role.


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## RebelGSD

This "training" attempt was pathetic and theatrical. I am sure it will bring in views to the network, but CM sadly failed as trainer. Incidents like this are something a trainer should be ashamed of. The danger in airing it is that CM wannabes will imitate it. I was not a fan, but lost respect for him after viewing this. This "training" just reinforced the dog's aggression.


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## msvette2u

gsdraven said:


> And as a professional trainer who focuses on behavior such as this video, I KNOW that there are better ways at fixing it. I've done it, recommended it and seen it work over and over again.


:thumbup:

I don't know as it takes a 'pro' to see it but it's helpful to hear you say that!!


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## selzer

Cesar does have personal presence, confidence, and a lack of fear of dogs that generally can take him a long way working with dogs regardless as to the method. A LOT of people are NOT going to make what Cesar did work for them because they do not have those specific tools. 

I watched a clip with him, and he was winging it with a dog, and then explaining what he did and why. He did not know what to do mentally, his instincts told him what to do at the time when he was with the dog. How do you teach people something your instincts tell you? You do not train instincts. You can explain why this was the right thing to do after the fact, but you cannot teach people a life-time of dog experience and instinct, not quickly anyway.


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## SewSleepy

Even if we don't agree with his training, I have to say that his show convinced my husband to get a dog.

My husband has bitten several times over the past few years (park, strays, customers) and had no intention of having another dog. Through watching CM he learned some pointers to help deal with dogs (confidence, etc) and learned about how much you work with dogs in training. He slowly came around, and we eventually got Seven. 

So regardless of whether you believe in how he trains, I think he's done something to encourage awareness that dogs aren't just ornaments or statues. That they need to exercise and training. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Jag

Freestep said:


> There was a discussion about this clip on another forum I am on. The fact that to dog chose to bite *after* Cesar had backed off, and she had seemed to soften, is the thing that makes the dog dangerous. She did not "avoid" him. She could have walked away, rolled over, or simply submitted. She wasn't cornered. 99% of dogs would choose NOT to bite after the threat had been removed. This is a dangerous, unpredictable dog that should be euthanized, IMO. Whether Cesar did the "right" thing is kind of beside the point--the dog's threshold is so low that anyone could be bitten at any time--especially a child.
> 
> My theory is that the owners probably tried every training method to cure this dog of her resource guarding, including beating the heck out of her. In this scenario, she probably learned that backing down, submitting, etc. will not do her any good. HOWEVER, most dogs would learn to back off at some point, rather than escalating aggression at every turn... the dog that chooses aggression over every other option is not a dog that should be living with a family, or anybody other than a very dog-savvy expert. There are so many NICE dogs out there that DON'T have this kind of aggression... why spend resources trying to "rehabilitate" this one?


THIS. I think that this clip was more of his evaluation. I had a super aggressive dog that was evaluated... actually more than one. Before the dog bit, she has EVERY SINGLE opportunity to back down, submit, whatever. She did not. I totally agree this dog at this time is WAY too unstable to be living with this family.


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## blackmeadow

Syaoransbear said:


> I think Cesar's dominance stuff is all just a bad translation on his part. I'm pretty sure what he wants to say is all dogs are opportunists, and if you act like a door mat your dog is going to treat you like a door mat. It's not because they want to be in charge, it's because they've found that disobeying or acting out has helped them get what they wanted at some point, and they are going to keep trying it until it consistently no longer works.


The thing is... if that's what he means, he needs to SAY that and act like that. He's on a hugely popular TV show, he has training clinics and books and all of that. He needs to say what he means. And honestly... when he stands there and actually says "the dog wants to be alpha!"? He _is_ saying the dog wants to be in charge. I'm pretty sure I've heard him suggest that before, many times.



Jag said:


> THIS. I think that this clip was more of his evaluation. I had a super aggressive dog that was evaluated... actually more than one. Before the dog bit, she has EVERY SINGLE opportunity to back down, submit, whatever. She did not. I totally agree this dog at this time is WAY too unstable to be living with this family.


I agree that the dog is unstable and shouldn't be in a house with a baby. But the dog DID try and submit. She wouldn't have rolled over... but she was lip-licking, looking away, laying down and avoiding his eye contact. She was nervous, and trying to appease him. She bit him because he crouched in front of her, waved his arm about near her face and then put his hand on her face. She didn't just go from being a relaxed, calm dog to snapping; she went from being an anxious, nervous and scared dog to self-defense. And while the whole food guarding thing is ridiculous, IMO the dog's reaction to Milan makes sense. Milan hadn't backed off. The dog tried appeasement gestures. Milan didn't listen, and he got bit.

I wonder if she would have bit him, had he just stood up normally and not touched her?


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## msvette2u

> I wonder if she would have bit him, had he just stood up normally and not touched her?


Whether or not she would...he reached out and slapped at her face again. As if to say "who's the big man on campus NOW, little girl??" and she only bit after he'd done it twice.


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## jang

I saw the episode when this tread started..CM has taught me a lot..especially the calm and assertive attitude..I am a high amped person and because of that , so is Sib..I have begun lowering my amps down and using a calmer voice,,It helps..I like CM because I have learned from him..Many people don't have the opportunity this board has in passing on training and behavior tips..for that the regular john doe dog owner CM is a good source of learning..jan


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## Olivers mama

Jan - you will find that people here are either 100% FOR Cesar, or 100% AGAINST him. Very little middle ground that I've seen.

I also have learned from him. And Stillwell. And Pryor, Leerberg, et al. They all have something to offer, IMO. But you'll notice few negative comments here about the others. And it basically comes down to $$ - these people aren't animal or dog specialists - they're all Legends in Their Own Minds. Their technique is better than the next guy's. Let's face it, there's big money to be made training other people's dogs & they know it. Ex - watch Victoria as she exits her shiney new corvette & trots inside to train a dog while wearing heels. 

There's something there for all of us - we just need to look with both eyes open.


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## jang

Yeah, I remember when Victoria drove a little bug of some kind...Hey what's wrong with being "the one" to call as long as no one gets hurt..Sure it's about the money..What isn't..And I don't think CM hurts dogs, and he has changed his methods over the years..Not so aggressive himself..Nope, I am not on any band wagon, I just try to learn whatever works best, usually a combo of everyone is what ends up working..And I'll watch anything that involves dogs..any dogs..all dogs...I just love em!!


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## selzer

Olivers mama said:


> Jan - you will find that people here are either 100% FOR Cesar, or 100% AGAINST him. Very little middle ground that I've seen.
> 
> I also have learned from him. And Stillwell. And Pryor, Leerberg, et al. They all have something to offer, IMO. But you'll notice few negative comments here about the others. And it basically comes down to $$ - these people aren't animal or dog specialists - they're all Legends in Their Own Minds. Their technique is better than the next guy's. Let's face it, there's big money to be made training other people's dogs & they know it. Ex - watch Victoria as she exits her shiney new corvette & trots inside to train a dog while wearing heels.
> 
> There's something there for all of us - we just need to look with both eyes open.


Victoria Stillwell and Cesar Millan are like the Jerry Springer and Maury Pauvich of dog owners. C'mon folks, if you were going to let the entire universe watch your dog eat off of a fork at the dinner table, or pull a ton of poop out of you kids' room, wouldn't you have a gigantic bag over your head??? These people are getting PAID, not just the trainer/actors. I like Victoria Stillwell's show, really, it's kind of like People Of WalMart. 

Cesar's crowd isn't much better in my opinion. If I let a dog become so dangerous that it has bitten people, and I am afraid of it, well shame on me. But at least they are trying to do something about it. 

They pick and choose which cases they will show due to how they will be received. It is entertainment. I really don't get any ideas or education from either personality, mostly because I must deal with behaviors way before they ever get to where you would need those types of behavior modifications. 

As for negative comments on the Positive Reinforcement crowd of trainers -- there are plenty. People are rude and condescending, and will talk about "kinder and gentler" methods like they are a joke. Just post yourself a thread saying you don't want to use a prong collar on your dog and they come out of the woodwork. It is almost like they feel more justified in using one if everyone else is, and if someone isn't they need to use a form of hazing or cliques to get you to conform or shut up about it. 

I think we tend to see things as more rude when the rudeness happens to someone we agree with. Some rudeness is blatant and we might agree with the perpetrator, but speak out against the tone of the comment. But the borderline rudeness seems to be interpreted differently depending on where people stand on the issue.


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## blackmeadow

msvette2u said:


> Whether or not she would...he reached out and slapped at her face again. As if to say "who's the big man on campus NOW, little girl??" and she only bit after he'd done it twice.


... You're right. I re-watched the clip. I didn't notice that he struck her in the beginning, when she was eating.  No wonder she was nervous and angry... He hit her! How is hitting a dog when they are guarding food going to make them trust anyone?

Milan has some good ideas, I will say that. I don't like him at all, but I am sure that some of his techniques work with some dogs. Same for any other "TV trainer". Yes, I personally get more out of Stilwell; her techniques are what helped me with my current dog. But it's never a one-size-fits-all. That said... what he did there, in this specific clip, to me is absurd. I saw less of a dominant dog, and more of a fearful dog. I don't think hitting a dog and standing over her like some sort of ninja is going to make the dog any better.

Especially when there's a history of the dog _getting hit already_.


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## Olivers mama

selzer - you're absolutely right! (& I love the Walmart comparison - LMAO @ that! :laugh: )

It's funny tho --- our dog prefers males. But on TV, she pays no attention to CM, other than she perks up when she hears a dog growling. (Or a bunch of cats on the Animal Cops shows). Once, while Victoria was on, Ziva was on her way to picking up something she shouldn't. At that EXACT moment, VS on the TV calls out 'Leave It'. And I'll be darned - Ziva dropped in her tracks. Too funny.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Jack's Dad said:


> The reverse is also true. Whatever method people believe in, they see all solutions through that filter.
> 
> Debbie, How would you have handled that dog under the same circumstances? How long would it take? Would you have removed the dog? How? What would it cost? If the dog was helped, what if the owners didn't follow up on it? Then what?.


I get your point about everyone seeing through their own filter, and I don't disagree with that at all - doesn't matter if we're talking about dogs or anything else, our own personal life experiences and biases are always brought to bear. But in his case, he's overly reliant on debunked dominance theory when relating to dogs. A lot of what he labels as "dominance" and "submission" on his show, clearly is not. Leadership does not require dominance. Dominance is not leadership.  And the problem with assuming that all behavior is based in dominance is perfectly illustrated in this video clip - this dog is showing signs of stress and avoidance, and he either does not recognize them as such, or he's ignoring them. He approaches her in an aggressive and confrontational way (looming over her rather than leaning back, approaching head on rather than sideways or at an angle, a sustained hard stare at her rather than with a sideways glance), he pokes at her after she shows her teeth (why?!?!!) and when she backs off the first time he continues advancing at her in spite of her obvious discomfort. Finally, she lays down, and he reaches for her, _from over her head_. Everything he did here were textbook examples of how _not_ to approach a strange dog! And this is a dog who had been practicing this behavior for a long time, who he KNEW had bitten people before. She gave all sorts of signals that she was uncomfortable with his presence while she was eating (and yes, that is absolutely the fault of her well intentioned but misguided owners who poked at her with a broom while she ate ), and when that didn't work, she fell back on what she knew WOULD work - a bite. And why wouldn't he have seen that coming? Well possibly because he thought that she because he was able to back her away from the food bowl she had "submitted" to his "dominance" over her. 

Here is a slow motion breakdown of this video, with commentary - it's easier to see everything she does when slowed down like this, but if you're paying attention (which Cesar certainly _should_ have been, under the circumstances!) you can see most of it in the full speed video originally posted: 




So Jack, that's how I WOULDN'T have approached this dog. As for what I would do if it were MY dog - that's impossible to say because this never would BE my dog. When I bring home a new puppy I have no idea if it's going to have resource guarding tendencies or not, so I implement preventative procedures to make sure that it never becomes an issue. And even if I failed to do that, I would have immediately addressed this issue when it first cropped up, at 5 or 6 months old apparently (I did not see the episode, so I'm going by what Diane said, since she did watch it) - by showing the dog that I can be trusted and that there is no need to guard resources from me. Maybe I'm fortunate, but this has always worked for me. Heck, Halo brings me toys and bones to take away from her and give back - for some reason she finds this an amusing game, lol! 

But let's say my usual pre-emptive training methods failed, and the guarding continued to get worse, resulting in a bite. *A* bite. But this dog is an adult, so they allowed the situation to continue for _years _before seeking help, and in the meantime they also continued poking at her with a broom while she was trying to eat, rather than leaving her in peace. I would have either sought help right away, or I would have removed the dog from my home. Now if this were a dog with a screw loose, who just went off on people with no warning or provocation, a dog who was completely unpredictable, the answer would be easy - euthanasia. But as Diane said, this ONLY happened around food. At other times, the dog was obedient, it was great with people and other dogs, it loved their kid. That doesn't sound like a screw loose to me. Still, it's a very valid point that this dog could be dangerous, especially for a family with a small child. Could this dog be rehabilitated to the point that it no longer feels the need to resource guard around food? I have no idea. If it were me, would I keep the dog or have it removed? That's hard for me to say, but I certainly don't blame them for their choice - their child's safety comes first. You're absolutely right that it could take some time, and it would definitely take a serious commitment by the owners, and strict management practices. If they were not prepared to do that, it's probably better that they gave up the dog. It's sad, but it's completely understandable.


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## Olivers mama

He DID acknowledge that he'd mishandled it, something people rarely do. Still not "abuse", IMO.

I'd like to see another video after he's had her awhile. Maybe I'll trot over to his website & ask him to provide one. Who knows? Maybe he'd like to enter into this discussion here, where it's the Pro-CM vs the Anti-CM.  Naw, betcha he's heard it all before.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I don't think it was abuse (well, maybe by the stupid owners who taught their dog that the only way to get them to stop pestering her while she ate was to bite them!), I just think it was stupid (or arrogant), and that he should have seen that bite coming from a mile.  

I'm also not anti-CM, I'm anti-"everything is about dominance", because well, it's just not. :shrug:


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## msvette2u

> when she backs off the first time he continues advancing at her in spite of her obvious discomfort. Finally, she lays down, and he reaches for her, from over her head. Everything he did here were textbook examples of how not to approach a strange dog!


For those who say "she could have ran away", that's really not how dogs think. To the dog, she's in a "life or death" struggle with this guy. He'd probably say the same, as to why she didn't run away past him.
For all she knew, he'd pounce on her at that point, and besides, again, dogs don't think like that. All she knows is he's in her space, threatening her.



> the Pro-CM vs the Anti-CM.


Actually I think CM is right on in some areas. But as others said, it's not about dominating dogs. They aren't taking over our homes. Some need more NILIF or "Mind Games" (how are those going, Oliver's?) than others, but it's really not all about dominating dogs and that video shows exactly why it isn't.


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## Olivers mama

msvette2u said:


> Some need more NILIF or "Mind Games" (how are those going, Oliver's?) than others,


Oh, just great - she plays great Mind Games with me... (JK - we'll be 'doing' the list starting tomorrow. After labs & infusion last night & tonight...:crazy


----------



## Jack's Dad

Debbie: Thanks for a very rational response that made a lot of sense.

msevette. Lots of theories on training and how to deal with aggressive dogs.

NILIF and "Mind Games" are fine but I would be hesitant to tell people with aggressive adult dogs that they always work.

I would not have kept that dog around my child but that's the way I see it.
Doesn't matter even if the owners caused it. One bite could seriously injure a child.


----------



## jang

Amen....


----------



## msvette2u

> msevette. Lots of theories on training and how to deal with aggressive dogs.


Yep. And many of them exacerbate the problem. I prefer to _fix_ the problem when it's possible to do so.


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## jang

msvette2u, Sometimes you have to admit a dog is too far gone..You are a lovely, caring person...but in this case that dog was way over the norm..no matter who would have tried to handle her,,she is out of control..I know where your heart is..but sometimes there is nothing else to do...jan


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## msvette2u

> msevette. Lots of theories on training and how to deal with aggressive dogs.


As I saw somewhere while back (and liked the quote)...firemen rushing to a fire do not usually bring gasoline to it, they bring an extinguisher and water!

No jang, I don't believe she was, and neither do a passel of professional trainers, but now we'll never know how it turns out, will we.
I believe the owners made tons of mistakes with her, and in the absence of those mistakes that dog would have been fine, it may have taken a few weeks but I have no doubt she'd have been turned around.


----------



## selzer

jang said:


> msvette2u, Sometimes you have to admit a dog is too far gone..You are a lovely, caring person...but in this case that dog was way over the norm..no matter who would have tried to handle her,,she is out of control..I know where your heart is..but sometimes there is nothing else to do...jan


I am not an expert on aggressive dogs. If this dog did this to the owner, I would agree with you hands down. But this was some freaky trainer guy who is bending over her, staring her down, giving her food, then taking it away, there are all kinds of people filming in there. The guy isn't backing down, he keeps advancing, and the owner isn't stepping in, and well, I saw a trapped animal who was confused and bit the guy. 

Too far gone, I don't know. I wonder how your dog would respond. I wonder how your dog would respond if it was his bully stick or a pig's ear. This dog's food dish is its high value thing. That is not ok, but they say it is the only issue with the dog. Well then make sure you feed the dog and then remove the dish when Jr. is not around. 

Not every dog that will bite a stranger who is teasing or challenging it, will bite a family member. 

I really feel sorry for the dog, because now people are clammering for the dog's head because it bit Cesar. I think Cesar had it coming.


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## msvette2u

> they say it is the only issue with the dog.


Exactly this. She's a sweetheart _all other times._ 
If I felt she was unfixable with her food bowl, I'd feed her in her crate. Problem solved.


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## selzer

We don't mess with the dog while he is eating. When there are kids at my parents' house, they will wait to feed the dog until they go, or they will go out in the kitchen and feed the dog while the kids are in the living room. It does not take him all day to eat. We feed him twice a day, and ALL the children, even Gwennie who isn't quite walking yet, can learn to leave him be when he is eating. 

And Cujo has NEVER given ANY indication that he is the least little bit food aggressive. It is just what we do with dogs. We give them their food and let them eat it. If some stranger did what Cesar did to Cujo after my dad set his food dish down, I truly don't know what Cujo would do. If one of the girls came into the room and walked by his dish he would not react though, which this dog might.


----------



## Jack's Dad

*After the Ceasar incident, they were crating her ALOT, and said she was even worse, (showed clips of her going ballistic in a crate biting wire etc).. He took her. His concern and the concern of the owners was, what if the kid had a piece of food around the dog? A very legitimate concern*.

This was from Diane's post. Someone who actually watched the whole episode.

I could be wrong but that seems like a little more of a problem than food.


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## msvette2u

Where's that post?
Why was she "going ballistic", in the crate? Because she had food in it?


----------



## Jack's Dad

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't see anyone saying they watched the entire episode with this dog/Ceasar?
> 
> Well I did..I am not here to say what Ceasar did was right/wrong. Here's the facts, the dog was bought as a puppy out of a parking lot. The owners said when she hit about 5-6 months old, she became VERY food aggressive. Clips showed the dog MUCH worse than she was w/Ceasar. Had bitten the man and the wife. It showed the man, telling her to sit, putting the bowl down, releasing her (she had VERY good obedience), and then he'd start messing with her bowl with BROOM, she would attack the broom, and she was quite nasty about it. He admitted he used the broom ALOT and messed with her food. Which in my mind made things MUCH worse.
> 
> Now, when there was no food involved, that dog was obedient, loved EVERYONE it met, was fine with otherdogs, LOVED their 3 year old kid. You would look at this dog and think, "GOSH what a nice dog!". Food involved all bets were off.
> 
> After the Ceasar incident, they were crating her ALOT, and said she was even worse, (showed clips of her going ballistic in a crate biting wire etc).. He took her. His concern and the concern of the owners was, what if the kid had a piece of food around the dog? A very legitimate concern.
> 
> I am not condoning Ceasar's methods, but that dog was going to do some serious damage to someone if something wasn't done. In the training center clips, she had a few minor setbacks, and they showed them, she was pretty submissive with his pack of dogs, but did eventually get integrated into his pack.
> 
> In the end, he told them he was keeping her because tho she was 'better', she could never fully be trusted especially with a kid around.
> 
> While I'm not a big fan of Ceasar's, hey he could have just cut out the bad stuff and no one would be the wiser..Shows he's human and messes up as well.
> 
> You can bash his methods all you want, but this dog was some freakin wacked out when it came to food, I doubt anyone else would have taken her on or would even 'think" about it. I know I wouldn't.
> 
> I would LOVE to see a video with a dog this NASTY rehabbed by someone else. (remember this one ended up being managed, but never 'cured')..


There ya go. Had bitten both owners also.


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## msvette2u

> Now, when there was no food involved, that dog was obedient, loved EVERYONE it met, was fine with otherdogs, LOVED their 3 year old kid. You would look at this dog and think, "GOSH what a nice dog!". *Food involved all bets were off.*


Kinda speaks for itself.
I'm not going to sit and argue until doomsday about this.
The owners created the issue. I'm just glad she didn't lose her life over it but I'm not going to praise CM for taking her when he did virtually the same - made the problem worse. I mean the dog's sitting in it's home and the owners allow some stranger to come in and slap her around. How's _that_ treatment make her more trustworthy with her owners??

Again - firefighters don't bring gasoline to fires, they bring water and extinguishers. 
A real solution, that is.


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> There ya go. Had bitten both owners also.


Knowing all that going in, Cesar was reckless, foolhearty, and with a huge ego going into it. The dog was a serious nutcase with food and he thought it would not bite him? Why, is he God's gift to dogs? 

Or does he really have nothing in his toolbox besides dominance and forcing a dog to submit?


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## Jack's Dad

I could care less about Cesar at this point. It bothers me that people don't read all the information. 

These owners could have just as easily come on here and asked what to do with their aggressive dog.

I'm sure they would not tell you the negative ways they handled this dog.

To tell them from the internet that all they have to do is use (name your training preference) is all you need to do and the dog will be fine could be irresponsible and dangerous

Folks need to be careful with their advice where aggression is concerned.
Especially when children are involved.

It really does help to read everything.


----------



## msvette2u

Then forums should not exist and the "good bad and ugly" section should not either.
People are responsible for their own actions.
Generally when someone comes here they are told "get a professional".
And I'll still tell them "MIND GAMES" because they are there, with the dog and it's simple to implement. 
Andy(?) have you read the page, even??

Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong



> If you are having serious problems with your dog, consult a dog trainer or behaviorist experienced in working with difficult dogs before changing any of your dog’s routines.





> ...Again, if this is likely to get you bitten, don’t do it--consult an experienced trainer or behaviorist as soon as possible


.



> The following is what has worked for me and for students of mine but it’s not written in stone. *If any part of the following is too difficult to carry out or might get you bitten, don’t do it!* You don’t have to play all the Mind Games with your dog to get some benefit from the program. The more Mind Games you play, the faster and more dramatic your results will be.


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## Mrs.K

It is really sad that you have to give it a name like Mind Games. 
Half of that stuff is common sense and general leadership.


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## msvette2u

Oh. Yeah. Well, I read it as Help the Dog MIND. That is, "mind" as in, "behave" LOL
It's a play on words, I'm pretty sure...


----------



## GSDolch

Jack's Dad said:


> I could care less about Cesar at this point. It bothers me that people don't read all the information.
> 
> These owners could have just as easily come on here and asked what to do with their aggressive dog.
> 
> I'm sure they would not tell you the negative ways they handled this dog.
> 
> To tell them from the internet that all they have to do is use (name your training preference) is all you need to do and the dog will be fine could be irresponsible and dangerous
> 
> Folks need to be careful with their advice where aggression is concerned.
> Especially when children are involved.
> 
> It really does help to read everything.



:thumbup:

He didn't say "never" give advice or help, he just said to be careful about it. Like how people shouldn't play doctor on the internet, people shouldn't play trainer either. It's one thing to try and give advice, or direction, its another to say "do this and it will work!" when the dog or the people haven't even been seen.

For all we know, the food issue could be the only thing they openly admitted to. My guess would be that there were way more issues there than with just food.


----------



## sitstay

JakodaCD OA said:


> I don't see anyone saying they watched the entire episode with this dog/Ceasar?
> 
> Well I did..I am not here to say what Ceasar did was right/wrong. Here's the facts, the dog was bought as a puppy out of a parking lot. The owners said when she hit about 5-6 months old, she became VERY food aggressive. Clips showed the dog MUCH worse than she was w/Ceasar. Had bitten the man and the wife. It showed the man, telling her to sit, putting the bowl down, releasing her (she had VERY good obedience), and then he'd start messing with her bowl with BROOM, she would attack the broom, and she was quite nasty about it. He admitted he used the broom ALOT and messed with her food. Which in my mind made things MUCH worse.
> 
> Now, when there was no food involved, that dog was obedient, loved EVERYONE it met, was fine with otherdogs, LOVED their 3 year old kid. You would look at this dog and think, "GOSH what a nice dog!". Food involved all bets were off.
> 
> After the Ceasar incident, they were crating her ALOT, and said she was even worse, (showed clips of her going ballistic in a crate biting wire etc).. He took her. His concern and the concern of the owners was, what if the kid had a piece of food around the dog? A very legitimate concern.
> 
> I am not condoning Ceasar's methods, but that dog was going to do some serious damage to someone if something wasn't done. In the training center clips, she had a few minor setbacks, and they showed them, she was pretty submissive with his pack of dogs, but did eventually get integrated into his pack.
> 
> In the end, he told them he was keeping her because tho she was 'better', she could never fully be trusted especially with a kid around.
> 
> While I'm not a big fan of Ceasar's, hey he could have just cut out the bad stuff and no one would be the wiser..Shows he's human and messes up as well.
> 
> You can bash his methods all you want, but this dog was some freakin wacked out when it came to food, I doubt anyone else would have taken her on or would even 'think" about it. I know I wouldn't.
> 
> I would LOVE to see a video with a dog this NASTY rehabbed by someone else. (remember this one ended up being managed, but never 'cured')..


I watched the entire episode as well. I don't generally watch CM, but had set the episode up to record after seeing a teaser for it. Shoot, I wanted to see what was up after hearing the voice over call it "The worst bite Ceasar has ever received". 

I agree with Diane's post (quoted above). For some reason I thought the child in the family was younger, but I sure had the same response to the whole thing. I have always thought Ceasar will often inflate how much he expected any offered response from a dog. He will say something along the lines of, "See, this is exactly what I wanted to happen, because it gives me a chance to...". It looks to me that 99% of the time he is just trying to excuse why the response he SAID was going to happen didn't happen. 

But this time he stood there and said, "I didn't see that coming". And he didn't see it coming. He had "challenged" the dog, she had not upped her reaction to that challenge and he had disengaged. The dog saw her chance and took a cheap bite. If she hadn't bitten him, I am sure he would have turned to the camera at that moment and said something about the problem being solved.
Sheilah


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## sitstay

msvette2u said:


> Resource guarding to humans is lack of trust. RG is created by the human sticking their hands in the bowl when the dog eats. Or hitting it with a broom which the owners in this vid claimed they did.


I disagree with this statement. I have seen litters of puppies that have had little or no human contact show guarding behaviors as young 4-5 weeks old. In those cases it was absolutely NOT caused by anything humans did or didn't do.

Can humans cause it? Yes. Are all cases caused by humans? NO. Can humans make a problem caused by how the dog is hardwired worse? Yes.
Sheilah


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## Cassidy's Mom

Sheilah, I didn't see the episode, and I'm curious about one thing that I haven't seen mentioned - was the food guarding _only_ happening around the dog's bowl at mealtimes, or in the presence of any food at all? If it were only HER food that would be a different thing for me than if she couldn't even be around if someone was cooking dinner and accidentally dropped food on the floor or if the kid was wandering around with a cracker in his/her hand and the dog might go for it. 

The first circumstance would be much more manageable than the second, obviously.


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## msvette2u

sit said:


> I disagree with this statement. I have seen litters of puppies that have had little or no human contact show guarding behaviors as young 4-5 weeks old. In those cases it was absolutely NOT caused by anything humans did or didn't do.
> 
> Can humans cause it? Yes. Are all cases caused by humans? NO. Can humans make a problem caused by how the dog is hardwired worse? Yes.
> Sheilah


Well I've seen day old puppies guard the teat. If they didn't guard, they would die. 
I never said it wasn't a natural behavior to dogs, and that's why, to me, it's a non-issue.
To dogs, guarding their things from each other ensures survival. 

When it's towards humans, often that human basically, instead of setting the food down and walk away, act like they are going to take the food.

Does that make a dog more, or less reactive to having their food taken?

Naturally, more reactive.

To set their food down, make them work for it (from day ONE I might add) they learn quickly that it is *not* their food to guard.

If you put a dog's bowl down and then immediately grab it back or shove your hand into the bowl, of course that's going to cause insecurity. 
That's what I mean when I say "it's human caused".

A dog always fed in it's crate and that's never had it's food summarily taken by it's caregiver will likely never develop resource guarding. It's a "non issue" :shrug:

This is why I don't think of RG as a huge issue - it's a hard-wired behavior.
When you acquire a dog or puppy, you can make it worse or make it better (to have humans around their food). 
To make it worse, take a broom and poke their bowl, slide the bowl away, or take your hand and start messing with their bowl.

To make it better, don't fiddle with them when they are eating. Don't get down there and pretend to eat their food (heard of this, too). I've even heard of people spitting in the dog's bowl to prevent it!

I looked around and realized, of our 9 dogs we currently have here and call "ours", none resource guard from us!
Why? Because we don't fiddle with their food while they eat!
Dogs that eat in their crates (fosters) don't RG with us, either!
I can only deduce one thing from all of that. 

NOT fiddling with their food is a better way to teach them they have nothing to fear, than is fiddling with it.


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## sitstay

> Exactly this. She's a sweetheart _all other times._
> If I felt she was unfixable with her food bowl, I'd feed her in her crate. Problem solved.


No. Not problem solved when there was a young child living in the house. Children drop food all the time. If the dog is guarding that aggressively, what do you think will happen the first time the child drops a cookie on the floor? 

I suppose they could crate and rotate the child and the dog. But sharing a home with a child and a serious resource guarder makes management very, very difficult.
Sheilah


----------



## WhiteSpirit

Ok not everyone will agree with what I say. 

There are many methods of training and not every method works with every dog or person. This doesn't mean that a dog is being abused because you don't like the harder training and it doesn't mean the dog is being pampered because you don't like the softer training.

True the methods that Cesar uses are not for every person or every dog. Why do you think they have auditions for the show? So they can custom pick the dogs they will use for his training style.

True the methods that Victoria uses are not for every person or every dog. Why do you think she does the same thing that Cesar does with auditions.

A person needs to concentrate on what will work for them and stop concerning themselves with the different televised training shows. They are made with many things cut out and very little to show for how things are truly done. I use firm touch with my dogs. This is not striking although it can look like it. A dog naturally backs away from an alpha giving a correction. My girl Spirit simply jumps a bit and looks at me when I give a corrective touch. Where as my chihuahua with only the slightest touch used in correction jumps to the side.

Food guarding is very controversial. There are many different ways to handle the correction of it. The best is to prevent it by having designated feed times from the start where the dog has to earn it's food. First meals for all puppies that have ever come from me came from the hand. It associates them to humans being a source of food right from the start.

With actual food guarding issues I prefer a more gentile approach like Victoria. I've used that method myself many times before she even put it onto her show as have many people and trainers across the world.

For dogs with a more outright guarding aggression (the dog Cesar was dealing with was not just normal food aggression) I like to approach slower. Starting at a distance with a hand stick (fake hand on a stick). I keep myself from getting bitten and it allows me to get closer to the food dish. I work foot by foot starting at ten feet away. Every time the dog ignores me and the stick it gets a treat better than what is in the bowl. This conditions the brain that the person approaching me is a good thing. They may have something better than what is in the dish. 

Although I don't agree with any television trainer on every technique they use on their shows I do agree with portions. Everyone can have a good idea from time to time and that is what the shows should be looked at as. A place to get an idea. If your watching and the style shown intimidates you or just doesn't feel right than that is not the one for you.

Also please I've seen forums torn apart over training arguments. Every one has a different opinion on what is right and wrong. It's also easier to get upset and says things online that you would never say in real life. Mainly because you know the chances of meeting anyone from the internet is next to nill. But please try to remember. Just because all you see is words on a screen doesn't mean there isn't a person sitting behind those words.


----------



## sitstay

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sheilah, I didn't see the episode, and I'm curious about one thing that I haven't seen mentioned - was the food guarding _only_ happening around the dog's bowl at mealtimes, or in the presence of any food at all? If it were only HER food that would be a different thing for me than if she couldn't even be around if someone was cooking dinner and accidentally dropped food on the floor or if the kid was wandering around with a cracker in his/her hand and the dog might go for it.
> 
> The first circumstance would be much more manageable than the second, obviously.


The guarding behavior became worse as time went by. The owners sounded like clueless folks who kind of pinged from one method to another in an attempt to address it. You know, start with trainer A who suggested they do method A, which didn't work. So they went to trainer B, who suggested method B, which didn't work. And so on.

To me, it sounded like each method only made the problem worse. The male owner clearly stated that she was vigilant around human food and did eventually guard (I think he used the word "claim") human food bits that got dropped when cooking. So they made sure she was never around when food was present. Both the man and woman said they were concerned now that their baby was becoming more mobile.

If you go back to the entire episode (or maybe even the clip that was first represented here), you'll see that she guards the entire patio once the kibble is dumped out on it and she is released by the owner to eat. What might have started as guarding only her food bowl was now extended to any surface where the food was or might be. Maybe dumping the kibble out directly onto the patio was a method suggested at some point to alleviate any connection between the bowl and guarding? Or maybe it made for better television? Who knows. What was clear was that she seriously guarded the whole patio area when food was present.
Sheilah


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## selzer

The kid does make things a lot more troublesome. 

Some resource-guarders will be problematic if you just walk by them and their dish. And even a well-disciplined child might slip up and run by where the dog is eating. The dog should have been rehomed if possible with full disclosure to a home with no children and where the owners can be trusted to deal with the problem effectively or manage the problem completely -- everything the dog gets is in his crate or in the basement/garage, and the dog is not free-fed or given treats etc., all over the house. 

But how many homes are actually willing to take on such a problem? Especially with bites to the owner and now Cesar. It is in the nature of a child to be unpredictable. A dog with issues really needs to not be around children. I would have probably suggested euthanizing the dog if a suitable home could not be found.


----------



## selzer

WhiteSpirit said:


> Ok not everyone will agree with what I say.
> 
> There are many methods of training and not every method works with every dog or person. This doesn't mean that a dog is being abused because you don't like the harder training and it doesn't mean the dog is being pampered because you don't like the softer training.
> 
> True the methods that Cesar uses are not for every person or every dog. Why do you think they have auditions for the show? So they can custom pick the dogs they will use for his training style.
> 
> True the methods that Victoria uses are not for every person or every dog. Why do you think she does the same thing that Cesar does with auditions.
> 
> A person needs to concentrate on what will work for them and stop concerning themselves with the different televised training shows. They are made with many things cut out and very little to show for how things are truly done. I use firm touch with my dogs. This is not striking although it can look like it. A dog naturally backs away from an alpha giving a correction. My girl Spirit simply jumps a bit and looks at me when I give a corrective touch. Where as my chihuahua with only the slightest touch used in correction jumps to the side.
> 
> Food guarding is very controversial. There are many different ways to handle the correction of it. The best is to prevent it by having designated feed times from the start where the dog has to earn it's food. First meals for all puppies that have ever come from me came from the hand. It associates them to humans being a source of food right from the start.
> 
> With actual food guarding issues I prefer a more gentile approach like Victoria. I've used that method myself many times before she even put it onto her show as have many people and trainers across the world.
> 
> For dogs with a more outright guarding aggression (the dog Cesar was dealing with was not just normal food aggression) I like to approach slower. Starting at a distance with a hand stick (fake hand on a stick). I keep myself from getting bitten and it allows me to get closer to the food dish. I work foot by foot starting at ten feet away. Every time the dog ignores me and the stick it gets a treat better than what is in the bowl. This conditions the brain that the person approaching me is a good thing. They may have something better than what is in the dish.
> 
> Although I don't agree with any television trainer on every technique they use on their shows I do agree with portions. Everyone can have a good idea from time to time and that is what the shows should be looked at as. A place to get an idea. If your watching and the style shown intimidates you or just doesn't feel right than that is not the one for you.
> 
> Also please I've seen forums torn apart over training arguments. Every one has a different opinion on what is right and wrong. It's also easier to get upset and says things online that you would never say in real life. Mainly because you know the chances of meeting anyone from the internet is next to nill. But please try to remember. Just because all you see is words on a screen doesn't mean there isn't a person sitting behind those words.


Actually, I think they have auditions because an ordinary owner who is having trouble with the pup pulling on the leash is just not flashy/entertaining enough. It is much more interesting to the sickos watching to see them discover poop all over the house and in the kid's room/bed/whatever. 

I am sure there are dominant dogs out there in real life, but watching the show makes you believe that every puppy is going to take over and be aggressive unless you keep it under your toe at all times. This is very troublesome because a lot of pups neither require nor thrive under those conditions.


----------



## WhiteSpirit

selzer said:


> This is very troublesome because a lot of pups neither require nor thrive under those conditions.


That is the reason I say it's not for every dog or every person. Not every dog needs it. Instead of concerning yourself with tv you need to pay attention to your dogs and figure out what works best for the both of you.


----------



## selzer

WhiteSpirit said:


> That is the reason I say it's not for every dog or every person. Not every dog needs it. Instead of concerning yourself with tv you need to pay attention to your dogs and figure out what works best for the both of you.


Well, frankly, it is my business what Cesar is teaching the nation of new dog owners. 

When these new dog owners mess up a puppy and then send it back to me, I have to deal with it and try to undo what they have done to the puppy. There may be disclaimers about not doing this at home folks, but when people watch Cesar, when it is spewed forth in the waiting room at the vets, people try all kinds of crap he does, and they do damage, they become little Cesar disciples, and they tsk about, and they walk in front of the dog, and they alpha roll puppies that are NOT dominant, and they can make a confident dog harder to handle, and they can make a soft dog shut down or worse. 

And when people call me and tell me that they saw Cesar doing such and such, I have to have an answer. I have to have suggestions for things to try. I have to have an idea of what they are talking about, and whether it makes sense or not for their puppy or dog. 

I actually feel pretty confident that if I tell people to read about Nothing In Life Is Free, people are not going to take away something that is likely to make the situation worse. I can't say that about Cesar's methods.


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## msvette2u

> Well, frankly, it is my business what Cesar is teaching the nation of new dog owners.


Exactly this!
I pointed out pages back how new owners will be all beaming, they are ready for a dog because "We watch Cesar!", and "We love Cesar Milan!" 
If I had a dime for each time I hear this.
I have to start from the ground up with them, pointing out how his "dominance" theory and methods are outdated and have been proven wrong.


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## Gharrissc

Cesar isn't telling people to go out and try to do the things that he does.

When Cesar was first on TV several people who didn't even have dog experience went out and tried to be 'professional dog whisperers'.Anyway one man was almost killed by a dog he tried these techniques with. I guess Cesar should be blamed for that too.

People copy stuff all of the time from tv and movies,and most of them are adults. If you are a capable adult and choose to copy something you see on tv,then you can't blame anyone but yourself if something goes wrong.

I'm not a die hard Cesar fan who follows everything he says,but I am not against him either. 

I think he's done some great things for dogs and he has even tried to soften his approach in many ways, I'm not talking about this video clip.


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## selzer

Gharrissc said:


> Cesar isn't telling people to go out and try to do the things that he does.
> 
> When Cesar was first on TV several people who didn't even have dog experience went out and tried to be 'professional dog whisperers'.Anyway one man was almost killed by a dog he tried these techniques with. I guess Cesar should be blamed for that too.
> 
> People copy stuff all of the time from tv and movies,and most of them are adults. If you are a capable adult and choose to copy something you see on tv,then you can't blame anyone but yourself if something goes wrong.
> 
> I'm not a die hard Cesar fan who follows everything he says,but I am not against him either.
> 
> I think he's done some great things for dogs and he has even tried to soften his approach in many ways, I'm not talking about this video clip.


I agree that he has a right to spew his ideas everywhere. He does. I think my response was to this quote: "Instead of concerning yourself with tv you need to pay attention to your dogs and figure out what works best for the both of you." Some of us are more likely than others to be called on for training advice and will be confronted with his methods with respect to dogs that we are consulted about. 

He IS teaching people his methods. 

The thing is, he believes in what he does. That some people cannot get the same results with dogs they are dealing isn't his fault, no. But that doesn't mean we can't disagree with how he goes about getting his results.


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## RebelGSD

I agree with Selzer. We try to educate adopters as how to best manage the particular dog they adopted and people either don't listen at all because they are CM experts or say "yes, yes" and they use CM methods at home. If there are problems it is the rescue and the dog that get blamed. The issue is deeper than choosing not to watch CM on TV.


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## msvette2u

> If there are problems it is the rescue and the dog that get blamed. The issue is deeper than choosing not to watch CM on TV.


This, exactly.
If I didn't hear so many people proclaiming they are now dog experts because they follow "Cesar's Way", it wouldn't be a thing to me.


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## sitstay

I have found a lot of people who watch his show, maybe buy a book or two and maybe a DVD. I see random people in my little town, out walking their dog(s) and I think I can pick the CM watchers by simply watching how they walk their dog. Short leash, arms stiff and held at side. Head up and marching forward with purpose. Often the dog is wearing a pack.

I think the same harm that an inexperienced handler/trainer can do following CM is the same kind of harm that an inexperienced handler/trainer can do following Victoria Stillwell, or that Canadian guy that wants to psychoanalyze the owners. None of these "celebrity" dog trainers (or horse trainers for that matter, drop in on a horse forum and hear what a lot of people have to say about Pat Parelli) are immune from having stupid people try to do it themselves. 

Rather than telling random people on the street, or people who contact me about adopting one of my fosters, that they are silly and WRONG for being interested in CM, or any of the other t.v. trainers, I tell them everything I find good and useful in that approach. Because none of these trainers are wrong about everything. CM nails it when he talks about the need for more exercise, and when he forces people to look at the dog as a dog that has a dog's needs. Stillwell nails it when she talks about how much can be accomplished with a clicker and when she talks about how you have to break a behavior down into small chunks and reward those, rather than expecting the entire behavior to be linked from the get-go.

Then you point them in the direction of a real, live dog trainer. When people adopt one of my fosters, a training class is mandatory. I have found this requirement does wonders and is much more effective in weaning them off the CM teat than any anti-CM rant I could go on.

I have seen what kind of damage a well meaning, but clueless, idiot of an owner can do with a buckle collar and a bag of treats. I am not ready or willing to blame any of these t.v. trainers for ALL the problems pet dogs deal with. 
Sheilah


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## msvette2u

> I think the same harm that an inexperienced handler/trainer can do following CM is the same kind of harm that an inexperienced handler/trainer can do following Victoria Stillwell, or that Canadian guy that wants to psychoanalyze the owners. None of these "celebrity" dog trainers (or horse trainers for that matter, drop in on a horse forum and hear what a lot of people have to say about Pat Parelli) are immune from having stupid people try to do it themselves.


I disagree, because VS's methods aren't going to get anyone's face bitten off like when the CM fan owner tries CMs way, in order to "dominate" their own dog 



> I have seen what kind of damage a well meaning, but clueless, idiot of an owner can do with a buckle collar and a bag of treats.


What damage is that? Their dog gained a bunch of weight?? 
What damage has resulted from clicker training?

It's pretty tough to screw up a dog with reward based training...


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## Blanketback

sit said:


> that Canadian guy that wants to psychoanalyze the owners


That guy is a psycho! I saw a few of his episodes, and I was shocked at some of the stuff he does. For example, he was trying to teach a young girl, maybe 12 years old, to let go of some of the responsibility she felt towards the family dog, and the dog was a runner, so he LET the dog RUN LOOSE in the neighborhood! ON PURPOSE! I would have beaten him up. 
This guy is crazy, and I guess it's a sad reflection on what people find "entertaining" these days. I don't even think he likes dogs - at least with Cesar you can see that he loves them.


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## Jack's Dad

Sheilah:

I really appreciate your rational, realistic responses on multiple topics.

It's truly refreshing.


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## sitstay

msvette2u said:


> I disagree, because VS's methods aren't going to get anyone's face bitten off like when the CM fan owner tries CMs way, in order to "dominate" their own dog
> 
> 
> What damage is that? Their dog gained a bunch of weight??
> What damage has resulted from clicker training?
> 
> It's pretty tough to screw up a dog with reward based training...


And I disagree that VS's methods aren't going to get anyone bitten in the face. Because ANY method can be misunderstood and used incorrectly. I can think of a handful of dog's that I have met over my lifetime that would have bitten any body part they could have gotten a hold of if someone had blown an air horn in their face. 

I saw a fearful GSP several years ago that was owned by an idiot who had watched Victoria Stillwell and liked how "positive" and reward based her methods were. The fearful dog would bark and growl as people walked past the ground floor apartment the dog lived in. The city Greenbelt that runs along the Boise River was just outside the apartment, so you can imagine the foot traffic. A bark collar was too "aversive" according to the owner, so she purchased an air horn and blasted it in the dog's face whenever the dog even looked at the patio door. Guess what? The dog got to the point where any aerosol can caused it to panic and if it couldn't get away, it would bite.

Or how about the owner with a young Golden Retriever who had a little leash reactivity? This owner used only a flat, buckle collar and a bag of treats. Unfortunately, because the owner was so slow in his timing, he was rewarding the wrong behavior. No, the dog didn't gain a bunch of weight, msvette. The dog was rewarded for getting stiff and up on it's toes, which in turned ticked off many dogs that saw that as a challenge and a warning and caused many a dog fight...which did nothing but reinforce the Golden's original reactivity and made it worse. Tell me how a clueless owner didn't make that situation worse, despite using a flat collar and treats? 

I have watched many people do nothing but confuse and distract their dogs with poorly used clickers. Again, I maintain that the tool or method is of much less importance than how well it is used by the person on the other end of the leash. 

I spend a lot of time talking to dog owners. I ask questions and listen to what they say (rather than lecture at them). I love sitting in on obedience classes and agility classes and listening to what the owners have to say. I have learned so much about how people see the relationship they have with their dog. The one thing that I can say with absolute conviction is that NO ONE method makes an owner immune from screwing it up. 
Sheilah


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## msvette2u

> NO ONE method makes an owner immune from screwing it up.


I'd agree, but also you must realize, it's the owner's implementation of the method, not the method itself.


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## sitstay

msvette2u said:


> I'd agree, but also you must realize, it's the owner's implementation of the method, not the method itself.


Isn't that what I have been saying? Any owner can screw it up, regardless of method. The implementation of _*any *_method is where the rubber meets the road. If you can't implement it correctly, even the most benign method can have scary results. 

So, just because some idiot sitting in their living room can't implement a method they just saw on t.v. doesn't necessarily mean the method itself is flawed. It means the person on the other end of the leash can't implement it. It doesn't matter if it is Ceasar Milan and his use of flooding or Victoria Stillwell and her use of a clicker. An idiot is an idiot.

Mzvette, you often recommend a 2 week shut down to people on this forum. Is your method flawed if someone reads it, implements it incorrectly and then comes back here to report they didn't get the same results you did? Where does the fault lay in that case? 

I am not in any way defending Ceasar Milan as some dog training God. He seems to have little understanding of training, and his explanations of why something is happening is often full of his own, funky terminology. But a lot of what he advocates for has made life easier for dogs in general. Increased exercise and an acceptance of a dog as a dog is chief.
Sheilah


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## sitstay

Jack's Dad said:


> Sheilah:
> 
> I really appreciate your rational, realistic responses on multiple topics.
> 
> It's truly refreshing.


Thank you very much. That made my day!
Sheilah


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## RebelGSD

I have never heard any of the adopters mentioning VS, as opposed to CM whom they idolize. The problem with CM is not even his training methods. It seems that his followers tend to adopt his arrogance first. After watching a few episodes they convince themselves that they are training experts and all input from people other than CM is rejected. It is also hard to convince them that a young, high-energy German Shepherd needs to run free to burn off excess excess energy. Most CM style walkers don't walk enough to cover the needs a high-energy young dog. Sadly the half a handful trainers in the area that can handle a GSD are simply way out of the price range of our average adopter or the average person in general. Two are pretty abusive with the dogs and I would not send adopters to them. The many trainers that pop up everywhere like fru-fru breeds, some of them would simply send away GSDs that are more effort. Our volunteers are much more experienced and knowledgable than most area trainers and they offers assistance to those who are not too obsessed with CM to listen to advice.


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## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Sorry, but that is the worst possible method for dealing with resource guarding. The best way is to PREVENT if from happening in the first place, but if you missed that boat there are other, much better, ways of fixing this problem. Maybe not with that particular dog, since this situation was allowed to build over a period of years, but if they had dealt with this at the first signs that it might be becoming an issue, who knows? A dog who trusts you has no need to guard resources. Dominating a dog and forcing them to submit does not build trust.
> 
> Baloney. That dog is showing numerous signs of fear, discomfort, and avoidance, which Cesar ignores while he continues to advance in a confrontational way.
> .............


Maybe the trainer needed to see how far the dog would push it's aggression if the dog was pushed (maybe by your small child?).

IMO, better to let a pro try this than a family member, I think?

I don't think that I would do a "time out" or some such nonsense if one of my dogs ever showed food aggression (or other true aggression) to me or any family member. No I suspect that the dog would learn right then and there who was "pack leader" in that house right then.

BUT, if the dog is a dog raised from a puppy, it should NEVER come to a confrontation with an adult dog. If it does there were some serious errors in raising that poor dog!


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## selzer

I think that if you need to let a pup or dog know who the pack leader is, then your leadership technique is broken.


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## codmaster

selzer said:


> I think that if you need to let a pup or dog know who the pack leader is, then your leadership technique is broken.


If you don't let them know who is in charge, they learn it how? 

I guess that a few of my dogs must have been slow learners (by themselves) as they learned much better when I showed them!


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## msvette2u

You don't HAVE to "show them". 
Good gosh. We have thumbs, they don't. We operate can openers and we hold the magic key to the food bowls, _they don't._ 
By sheer default we are their leaders. 

But once again - Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

I'm finding it fascinating you're reviving months old threads to rehash this all.


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## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> You don't HAVE to "show them".
> Good gosh. We have thumbs, they don't. We operate can openers and we hold the magic key to the food bowls, _they don't._
> By sheer default we are their leaders.
> 
> But once again - Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong
> 
> I'm finding it fascinating you're reviving months old threads to rehash this all.


They know instinctively?

What if we don't feed them canned foods? That must be my problem - good I know.

I wouldn't let chong near my cat (much less my dog) and I don't have a cat!

Our dogs do lack thumbs, true; BUT don't forget, *we* lack tails!

Thank you!

but "rehash" - related to the cans that you open to teach your dogs?


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## selzer

I currently have 16 dogs at home, from 7 months to 7 years, and not a one of them has ever had to be shown who the boss was. They know it. Maybe it is how I walk. Maybe it is how I talk. Maybe it is that I bring them food, and treats, and pets, and drive the car, and clean their ears, and cut their toenails. Maybe it is because I am totally unafraid of them. 

If you have a puppy from the time it is a few months old, you should not need to think about showing that puppy who is the leader, unless your leadership technique is broken. 

If you get an adult dog, and several of mine I got as adults, you STILL don't have to show them who's the boss. Sorry, you just treat them the way you treat all the others, you walk, stand, talk the same, and leadership is there or it is not. If it is not, you need to fix you, not the dog.


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## msvette2u

selzer said:


> I currently have 16 dogs at home, from 7 months to 7 years, and not a one of them has ever had to be shown who the boss was. They know it. Maybe it is how I walk. Maybe it is how I talk. Maybe it is that I bring them food, and treats, and pets, and drive the car, and clean their ears, and cut their toenails.
> 
> If you have a puppy from the time it is a few months old, you should not need to think about showing that puppy who is the leader, unless your leadership technique is broken.
> 
> If you get an adult dog, and several of mine I got as adults, you STILL don't have to show them who's the boss. Sorry, you just treat them the way you treat all the others, you walk, stand, talk the same, and leadership is there or it is not. If it is not, you need to fix you, not the dog.


Good post 
cod, your posts are way too sarcastic to even be believable.


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## codmaster

msvette2u said:


> Good post
> cod, your posts are way too sarcastic to even be believable.


msv,
thank you
And yours????



but enough.

everyone can have their own idea of how to manage or train their own dogs.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Hey everyone, the horse is dead - you can stop beating it!


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