# A Potty Training Nightmare



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I am just out of ideas. I have never had such an issue getting a dog completely potty trained. Robyn was close but she never went in her crate. Apollo just won't stop going in his crate. I have gotten him to the point where he doesn't carry on when he goes in there and I make him sleep in there at night, which has helped, he doesn't bark or whine anymore, but it's not his first choice. He has had one accident in the house(in the last week)while he is out of the crate and it was right by the door(I kind of accept blame for this, but I still feel that he should be able to hold it longer then 3-4 hours, which is the issue) How do you teach a dog bladder control? I know a lot of it is routine and "training" them, but how do I do this if he just goes? It's not like I can put him in the crate and "wait" it out, because he just goes. It seems like he is stuck at the 3 hour mark, even over night. I just recently got to sleep through the night, the first time since early December(this is because of another idea I tried and was short lived)

This is the stuff I've tried..,

-I did the every 1/2 hour then hour and so forth taking him out. 
-I've tried a belly band-I got to sleep until he figured out how to move it.
-I've tried diapers for dogs
-I've tried putting a bed in the crate to make it feel more like a den and making it less likely for him to pee
-No water or food after 6
-I've been putting a couple of the other dogs in there with him do he isn't alone and doesn't feel left alone.
-I have been focusing on getting him tired and we do flirt pole, fetch and obedience about an hour before bed.
-I clean accidents with Simple Solution(buying stock in the company shortly)

So now his new thing is pooping in the crate. The dog has always pooped twice a day and now he is going about 4-5 times, about 3 times in the crate. The pee has subsided for now. He has firm poop, no loose stool. This started after I introduced the belly band. He had managed to move the belly band a couple times to pee leaving the band the same way I left it and completely dry, I don't know how. So I added a diaper to the belly band, that is when the poop in the crate started. He manages to get half the poop in diaper and half in the crate. He seems to like having the bed in there, I introduced that on Sunday and it's been washed twice since then(because of poop). 

So here is the breakdown(maybe I'm missing something) for the last week.

I got the belly band and he made it through the night without any issues for five out of seven days(I thought we were good) On maybe day 4 he peed with the belly band on during the day. No accidents out of the crate with belly band on. Then I got the diaper and bed for crate. First night was good with both on. Day two during the day he started the pooping. Since then he has pooped a few times with diaper on during the day. Tonite(middle of night) he pooped again. Earlier tonite he peed by door with band on, but the band was completely dry(I have no clue how he is doing this). Now he is back in the crate with nothing. No band, diaper or bed--back to square one. It's driving me nuts, I don't want a dirty dog 

Everything else about him is perfect. He is doing great with obedience and in class. He has great focus and is extremely focused. 

I don't think its medical, but it is turning into behaviorial and I need to turn it around. I need to get him to a five hour mark during the day and all night, then he can be done with the crate. Right now I feel like we are in a battle. He wants out of the crate and I need to trust he won't pee when out. I've tried explaining this to him and he looks at me like I'm crazy(a little humor because I'm tired)

So how do I teach him bladder and poop control? I honestly don't think he has to poop when he is going in the crate, he knows he is removed from the crate when he does. He doesn't cry before he poops or pees for that matter beforehand--just afterwards and it's a please get me out of this mess cry!!

Now I remember why I was going back and forth about getting a pup versus an older dog...it's all coming back to me now
:help::help::help::help::help::help::help::help:


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

What would happen if you just put Apollo and another dog in the laundry room with their beds..no crate. It sounds like you have tried everything except hip waders . Good luck.

PS, how old is Apollo now?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Debanneball said:


> What would happen if you just put Apollo and another dog in the laundry room with their beds..no crate. It sounds like you have tried everything except hip waders . Good luck.
> 
> PS, how old is Apollo now?


He is right around 6 months, that's my best guess. I have tried to put him behind a gate without a crate and he escaped both--2 different heights. He also escaped the ex-pen. I get a headache trying to figure out how to stay ahead of him, how sad is that?


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Sad...but, smart! When you put him away, was he alone....


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Try a smaller crate?
Dogs usually don't go where they sleep and eat.. But if the crate has 'extra space' they may be inclined to go. As you said, several dogs fit into that crate. So it could be too big to use to potty train that dog. 

Feed him there too.
Make it so small so there is no room as 'living space' to wiggle around in crate.

That said also consider medical conditions too for incontinence. ( don't know this info. So important for me to mention it as a possibility .)


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Debanneball said:


> Sad...but, smart! When you put him away, was he alone....


I've tried it both ways. When I add another dog it becomes a partner in crime situation and nobody admits guilt


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> Try a smaller crate?
> Dogs usually don't go where they sleep and eat.. But if the crate has 'extra space' they may be inclined to go. As you said, several dogs fit into that crate. So it could be too big to use to potty train that dog.
> 
> Feed him there too.
> ...


I put other dogs in the room, he is in the crate by himself. I had the divider up for a long time, it made him more anxious to get out. Now he is to big to put the divider in. He is pretty long. He eats all his meals and treats/bones in there. I would have leaned toward medical until he started pooping. He is doing anything and everything to get out of the crate. 

I wonder if a plastic crate would work better then the wire? If that back fired that would be even more of a mess then the wire crate


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Lykoz said:
> 
> 
> > Try a smaller crate?
> ...


I don't know which is better I think there is personal preference. It might work better I don't know. Depends on dog I guess.

Only advice I have is to make crate smaller irrelevant if he cries or not. 
I'm not saying fold him into a pancake, but if there is a way to make it smaller it might help.

I guess you could also try the newspaper method, but that's a pain in the but.

Walking around with him on leash and correcting when he wants to go and taking him outside to poo and reward could also work if nothing else works... He will have some accidents, but they eventually ussually catch on.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I had experience raising a dirty puppy (the Malinois, Tulah) and none of the things that you had mentioned worked for us either. She was in a tiny crate and we did the same methods that you already mentioned and it never made a difference. She was naturally just comfortable in her own filth and didn't see the need to hold it to get outside. She's older now (a little over a year) and as far as I know has mostly grown out of the behavior. So I know its not much help, but its possible that just with time and consistency, he'll eventually get over this. Short of that, you've done everything already that I would have suggested.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

It may be that you are dealing with a habit that developed before you got him. Much harder to break from what I understand. 

I think you are going to have to find a way to confine him to one room until this problem is under control. I have no barrier left that Summer can't get through. Even though she's good in the house alone, I know that I'm probably going to have to hire a carpenter to put up some kind of wire grid door that will allow me to confine her when needed to the laundry room. 

Hopefully, his basic instinct to go as far away from his bedding as possible is still in place. I would start from scratch with the newspaper routine again. I don't think bands or diapers are for potty training, just ill or incapacitated dogs. 

Summer is fed at 6am (2 cups) and 2pm (1 cup) so there's not a lot in her stomach overnight and no play 3hrs before bed that could cause her to drink more than a little water before her last trip out to go at night. Everytime she goes outside and "produces" she gets a cracker immediately when she comes back in the house. No poop or pee, no cracker. 

She has her own "crib" mattress and sleeps in the bedroom with me every night. There is a 3' barrier up against the door. If she needs to go out in the middle of the night the noise of her trying to get out wakes me up and I take her outside. This has only happened a couple of times when too much treat training threw off her schedule. That's all I got, can't think of another way other than going back to basics.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> I had experience raising a dirty puppy (the Malinois, Tulah) and none of the things that you had mentioned worked for us either. She was in a tiny crate and we did the same methods that you already mentioned and it never made a difference. She was naturally just comfortable in her own filth and didn't see the need to hold it to get outside. She's older now (a little over a year) and as far as I know has mostly grown out of the behavior. So I know its not much help, but its possible that just with time and consistency, he'll eventually get over this. Short of that, you've done everything already that I would have suggested.


Could you maybe accept the crate as the toilet.. And start placing the ground of the crate outside? I.e. Maybe whole crate... And then maybe just newspaper. 

it kind of changes the purpose of the crate.. But I guess the dog already did that. Will kind of ruin the idea of ever crating the dog thereafter tho.

If I was ilboro my first option would still however to try make crate smaller, weather it works or not, I would try that as my first approach.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I had my puppy from 7 weeks old, so there really shouldn't have even been a behavior that had been happening long enough to label as habit. She just did not care about laying down in her own filth. The issue with the puppy I had was that I was constantly traveling for training/trials, and we absolutely needed her to be contained in a crate for the trips. She got slightly better as she was approaching 6 months, and apparently is much better now. But she was absolutely filthy as a puppy. I had outdoor kennels and she spent a lot of time in the day in there. I tried to teach her to use a specific corner at the very least, but she still never cared.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I wonder if the dam was a messy mother and the pups learned to tolerate a soiled 'den'. 

I'd think if you let the pup be in a larger crate, put the bed on one side and a puppy pad on the other (during the night) then it might catch on that it doesn't want to lay in it's own waste. Then once he's consistently going on the puppy pad, put him in a smaller crate with his bed and no puppy pad. 

I'm no fan of puppy pads and I think I'd change my schedule (during the evening) to taking the pup out to potty once during the night as well. But, it sounds like the pup is content with hanging out with his own waste. If you could break that habit, you might stand a better chance with him not going in his crate and/or house.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

GatorDog said:


> I had my puppy from 7 weeks old, so there really shouldn't have even been a behavior that had been happening long enough to label as habit. She just did not care about laying down in her own filth. The issue with the puppy I had was that I was constantly traveling for training/trials, and we absolutely needed her to be contained in a crate for the trips. She got slightly better as she was approaching 6 months, and apparently is much better now. But she was absolutely filthy as a puppy. I had outdoor kennels and she spent a lot of time in the day in there. I tried to teach her to use a specific corner at the very least, but she still never cared.


I asked you the question to get your input on what you thought since you had a similar problem. I am throwing out ideas, that I am not sure about.

However am trying to address ilboros dog situation rather than your dog.
(Just shooting ideas for people to discuss for apollo so there could be a good 'gameplan')


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> I don't know which is better I think there is personal preference. It might work better I don't know. Depends on dog I guess.
> 
> Only advice I have is to make crate smaller irrelevant if he cries or not.
> I'm not saying fold him into a pancake, but if there is a way to make it smaller it might help.
> ...



That is what's odd, he knows to go outside and he asks when out of the crate We are down to almost no accidents out of the crate(1 this week), but in order for him to have that freedom I need to know he can hold it. He can be quite stubborn. I'm late almost everyday for work because he doesn't pee, I bring him in, he cries, I take him back out and he pees. It's almost like he is thinking oh crap I should have peed the first time and he freaks out. Just my observation.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> I had experience raising a dirty puppy (the Malinois, Tulah) and none of the things that you had mentioned worked for us either. She was in a tiny crate and we did the same methods that you already mentioned and it never made a difference. She was naturally just comfortable in her own filth and didn't see the need to hold it to get outside. She's older now (a little over a year) and as far as I know has mostly grown out of the behavior. So I know its not much help, but its possible that just with time and consistency, he'll eventually get over this. Short of that, you've done everything already that I would have suggested.


He used to get car sick and he grew out of that, so maybe there is hope? In the mean time I'm doing a heck of a lot of cleaning.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Lykoz said:


> I asked you the question to get your input on what you thought since you had a similar problem. I am throwing out ideas, that I am not sure about.
> 
> However am trying to address ilboros dog situation rather than your dog.
> (Just shooting ideas for people to discuss for apollo so there could be a good 'gameplan')


I am offering suggestions based on my own experience with this issue..I would think it would be much more difficult to give suggestions on something that you've never personally experienced yourself. So yes, it is about my dog. My dog's situation is in direct relation to OP's dog's situation.

OP- For the overnight issues, I was setting alarms. For the first week, I woke up every 2 hours and then built up the time from there. Until the day she left, I was still getting up halfway through the night to take her out. I would also suggest something like Lilie said, with allowing him to go in a specified section of the crate to see if he takes to it.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> That is what's odd, he knows to go outside and he asks when out of the crate We are down to almost no accidents out of the crate(1 this week), but in order for him to have that freedom I need to know he can hold it. He can be quite stubborn. I'm late almost everyday for work because he doesn't pee, I bring him in, he cries, I take him back out and he pees. It's almost like he is thinking oh crap I should have peed the first time and he freaks out. Just my observation.


That's why Summer gets the cracker. No pee or poop, no cracker. She used to thoroughly explore the yard before going because she knew the excursion was over the minute she produced. Now, she knows the cracker is waiting and gets the job done quickly.


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## Kodakp (Feb 22, 2015)

My dog came from a kennel and was probably use to soiling around his sleeping quarters. He continued to go in crate for 2 weeks so I took the top off and threw some pine so he would go there. I bought a new crate and put it next to it. He went in the other and I kept moving closer out then throwing some pine on the grass. It worked. But it was a long process. I think it is how they start out as puppies. Good luck


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Had this situation with a puppy mill dog. 

Lots of potty breaks with treats, including at night. I knew I was getting somewhere when the dog looked up at me and peed outside the crate before going in with a look on her face that said, "See, I know I can't go potty in the crate. Aren't I being a good girl?"

With you not knowing the past of this rescue, is your boy is telling you information about his past? Regular methods do not work with a severely abused/neglected dog. 

Good luck. Many people would be abusing him right about now, fortunately, he is blessed with a wonderful, caring owner, even though you must be tired and discouraged about now.


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

I still would go with a smaller crate. The fact that it did not work with gators dog is not so important. Completely different dog. I would try it. I like to focus on solutions for this individual puppy, rather than other dogs not being successful in a system.

Also I've potty trained dogs with the newspaper method in the past. 

It works. Might be the alternative you are looking for..
Can keep dog in a toilet sized room or play den. Larger than a crate. Place newspaper everywhere. Dog goes on newspaper. Slowly remove newspaper and make sure dog only goes on newspaper. If he misses start again.

Slowly remove newspaper until very few pieces left or one piece. 
Then place newspaper outside the play pen/room and outside.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Many years ago I used the tray with newspapers for my oldest. It actually worked well. She would bury her poop in the newspapers. I almost think Apollo would shred the newspapers or pads, he took a pamphlet the other day and had a field day with that. I'm surprised he didn't eat the bed really. 

I trying to make his crate as much like a den as possible without much success

He is not a stupid dog. Just very stubborn.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Kodakp said:


> I think it is how they start out as puppies. Good luck


My Lacy breeder is a big believer that how the puppies are whelped makes a big difference in how long it takes to potty train. His whelping box has two compartments. One for sleeping/eating/playing and the other for pooping. Even as puppies they figure it out quickly. 

When the pups get big enough to go outside, he includes the sleeping area of the whelping box. They never mess in it. 

My Lacy pup had one accident in the house and it was operator error, not the pups. Teaching him to potty on cue was embarrassing easy.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Here.......

View attachment 282218


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't know how much smaller of a crate I can get because of his size. He can't lay down width wise at all, he is to long. When he lays long ways he takes up the whole crate. I don't have a huge crate at all. We did the whole treat and reward to go outside, that works fine for when he isn't in the crate. He hits or I should say bangs on the bells to go out. He gets the concept when not in the crate. I have been taking him out throughout the night since December. I probably created the need for him to go out in the middle of the night and now it's routine, like clockwork. So now I need to sleep and he is still stuck on going out at 3am. What's bad is that once I get up to let him out I can't go back to sleep


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Heck, Fritz is 9 months now, he goes out between 11-11:30 pm, sometimes again around 3:00 am, then by 6:30-7:00 am.. i know he can hold it, but its a routine now. For the 3:00 am trips, he goes right back to bed, thank goodness!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I don't know how much smaller of a crate I can get because of his size. He can't lay down width wise at all, he is to long. When he lays long ways he takes up the whole crate. I don't have a huge crate at all. We did the whole treat and reward to go outside, that works fine for when he isn't in the crate. He hits or I should say bangs on the bells to go out. He gets the concept when not in the crate. I have been taking him out throughout the night since December. I probably created the need for him to go out in the middle of the night and now it's routine, like clockwork. So now I need to sleep and he is still stuck on going out at 3am. What's bad is that once I get up to let him out I can't go back to sleep


Summer got stuck on 3am too! The only thing I could do was slowly extend it out over a couple of weeks - 3:15, 3:30 etc. A couple of 3am's happened but eventually it worked. 5:30 was a day for celebration! Now, she's good from 9pm-5am.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Summer got stuck on 3am too! The only thing I could do was slowly extend it out over a couple of weeks - 3:15, 3:30 etc. A couple of 3am's happened but eventually it worked. 5:30 was a day for celebration! Now, she's good from 9pm-5am.


That is my goal. Heck I don't even go to bed until 11-1130, so 11:30 until 5:30 would be perfect.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

What did the vet say when he ruled out medical?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I've often wondered about 3am. If I have a problem or something going on 3am is when I wake up too.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> What did the vet say when he ruled out medical?


Trainers and vet are pretty much giving the same ideas that I've done. But they always add that the pup is lucky to have someone like me with patience and that something happened before I found him. I don't think I would have had this amount of patience 5 years ago....

Is there a medical reason for the poop? I haven't gotten that ruled out, except he has a clean fecal and no icky poop issues. Is there anything else to rule out?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've read to never clean the mess up in front of them so I've avoided that completely. I remain calm and remove him from the crate.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I can't give you any better advice than has already been given. You have pretty much done everything I would have done. The only thing I can offer, is help with easier clean up.

Shelby is about the same age as your pup. She was housebroken in a few weeks. She sleeps through the night and has for quite some time. Yes, I'm lucky. I do not have a bed, in Shelby's crate. I use a large bath towel, to cover the entire floor of the crate. I purchase inexpensive small fleece blankets from Walmart. They cost less than $3. I fold them so they take up half the crate. When younger, Shelby may have gone potty on the towel, but never the fleece blanket. She would cry, when soiled. I kept a roll of paper towels, bottle of spray cleaner and clean bedding nearby.

Shelby was taken outside, immediately to potty. Poop, could easily be scooped out. Bedding was rolled up and put outside on the deck, until morning. Quick spray and wipe. Clean towel and blanket placed. Shelby returned to the crate. The soiled bedding was very easy to wash. Thin and lightweight. It dried quickly.

There was no rewarding, no playing, no attention, for soiling the crate and getting me out of bed. Out to potty and right back in the crate. Shelby soon learned to cry 'before' she soiled the crate. Then she matured to be able to hold it longer and just waits until I let her out.

Good luck. I can only imagine how frustrating this is for you.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

I do clean the crate up in front of Shelby, because her butt is going RIGHT back in there. ASAP! LOL!


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## Kodakp (Feb 22, 2015)

Koda is out at 12:00.. 3:00.. 5:00.. I feel like I am nursing a **** baby! ?. Maybe do away with crate and put him in a gated area. Maybe he now associated crate with bathroom?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> I do clean the crate up in front of Shelby, because her butt is going RIGHT back in there. ASAP! LOL!


I'm kinda thinking and hoping that if he thinks he is getting out by going to the bathroom, going right back in will confuse him and maybe it will click that he ends up back in there anyway.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Kodakp said:


> Koda is out at 12:00.. 3:00.. 5:00.. I feel like I am nursing a **** baby! ?. Maybe do away with crate and put him in a gated area. Maybe he now associated crate with bathroom?


How old is Koda now? See, I like my sleep. It didn't take my kids or dogs long to learn to sleep through the night, because I am not pleasant when woken. Nobody wants to see Mom in the middle of the night, or wee hours of the morning. HA!


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

llombardo said:


> I'm kinda thinking and hoping that if he thinks he is getting out by going to the bathroom, going right back in will confuse him and maybe it will click that he ends up back in there anyway.


Yep, I used to stand on Shelby's leash, while I got her crate ready. Then - BOOM, right back in. Then, I would discard the trash and toss the bedding out back. 

Hang in there!


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Also if you go newspaper method you could have a bed in the play pen and hope he does not go on it. Must be comfortable.

Toys to keep him distracted from playing/ripping on newspaper or pads..

When he is going around and not on his sleeping (comfy area)... 

You could eventually move the comfy area into the crate..
You could also continue feeding in the crate..

This way you can get back ownership of the crate maybe as a non poo safe area, he wants to be in.


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## Ruger Monster (Jan 29, 2015)

Ruger baffles me some days too with his potty. He's a "dirty dog" - since we brought him home, he's had no problems "playing" in his own filth. He was getting baths 2x a day when he was smaller. 

He was doing pretty well with not pooping when I had a bed in his crate, but would still have the occasional pee accident while I was at work (which I couldn't fault him for at 3½ months old). One day he just flat out soaked his bed, so we tossed it outside. Now he's reverted back to pee AND poop in the crate during the day. Going to buy a cheaper dog bed to put in there and see if that gets him back on track. If not, the divider might have to go up too and see what happens. We have rare accidents when he's out of his crate, and usually it's by the door, so he KNOWS he's supposed to go out and potty. Might try the cracker/reward if he goes, since sometimes his standing by the door just turns into an "outdoors adventure". 

No real advice, good luck - I know how frustrating it can be (Ruger also is only 4 mos old today, so my fingers are crossed that by 6 mo he'll be out of his "crate pottying" habit!)


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Also if you go newspaper method you could have a bed in the play pen and hope he does not go on it. Must be comfortable.
> 
> Toys to keep him distracted from playing/ripping on newspaper or pads..
> 
> ...


OMG 80% of my comment got lost somehow.. Phone forum version, rediculous. Here is some of the rest, in speed talk -hate typing the same thing twice:

I did not always believe in crates (from a ethical standpoint - feel differently now), I now acknowledge it is the fastest, easiest and most practical solution. It is also very humane and logical. Suffice to say, I found other ways of doing it.

Another thing you could consider for newspaper method is putting play pen in your room, with the dogs bed as close to your bed as possible. Dogs like to go far from their bed and you. (Which is why I said smaller crate: I guess since your crate is already small cant do that). 

So the dog will naturally pick the spot furthest from his and your bed. 

Also in your room you can get a feel for when the dog is asleep, and when he is restless. And possiblt take him outside, before he even goes on the newspaper in the play pen, and treat/reward.

To be honest on some dogs I was too lazy to do the newspaper method consistently. i.e. start again when the dog missed the newspaper.
Sometimes I could see them pre-empting a miss, and would give a negative reinforcer or correction, or just as they did it.

I actually trained a dog, by giving up on newspapers very quickly, and just had him in my room. The first few days I had him, I just attached him to me with a leash, and he was everywhere I was. He could play outside by himself, but otherwise I was with him all day. Was during holiday time so it worked out perfectly. But even a weekend can do it. 
So I just corrected/ negative reinforcer every time he squated, or tried to go inside.. And just took him immidiately outside and treat in his spot. He would sleep in my room. He eventually just scratched on the door or circled, or pranced up and down and cried, or scratched on the door, or jump up and try lick my face.. Suffice to say like clockwork he would wake me up, and we would go outside.. And go back to bed. Eventually he did not need to wake me up.. 

And he was potty trained. I had a few mishaps.. But with consistency, he got the idea.


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## Kodakp (Feb 22, 2015)

He is almost 13 weeks. Right now I am living on coffee, coffee, and coffee. My hubby knows if I am in a robe at 11:00 am don't mess with me LOL. I find some dogs are more stubborn. When Koda starts eating twice a day I will slowly start changing schedule to 10:00 and 5:00.


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## Kodakp (Feb 22, 2015)

I think keeping the dog with you or in a pen is a great idea. I think a change up is in order


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Well, my 1.5 yo was the only pup I had problems house training. It took well not really forever but it sure seemed like it. I'd think we had it made and then discover that we didn't. She was close to 1 yo before I think it took. Just a day ago I had taken her out and brought her in w/o a bm. She dumped on her housemate's bed (dog bed not human bed). Last night she again told me she needed a second trip outside because she didn't do everything. So we went out solved that and had a good evening.
One thought would be to use an enzyme cleaner (like nature's miracle) every time you clean the crate. (maybe you already do this.) If you already use this, maybe treat the crate half an hour before you plop Mr. stinky in it?


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## Lykoz (Dec 6, 2014)

Oh sorry just something important I left out.. 

I once used corrections on a sausage dog a long time ago...
All the other dogs were, ok with a bit of a nose flick.

The Dachshund completely crumbled. And would urinate out of fear to me, and had to rebuild that relationship. The correction was too tough for that particular dog, even as mild as it was.
I never forgot that lesson, which is why this would not be my first approach with a dog. But most dogs are ok, and they get it. The GSD's I have owned were not very phased by it. 

A strategy, is to just leave the dog outside where it can go.. To reinforce that its ok to do it outside... And then be strict inside.. So the dog does not panick and get confused.
Its important that the dog knows it is ok to poo... And not just be a dictator inside from the get go. Some treat and reward for going outside should proceed corrections for going inside.

The Datchshund was my family's dog, as a kid, and never built a real relationship with it. I was just the mean correction guy. I did not know better.

Either way I mishandled that dog and ever since that experience I am careful with any corrections esp. a puppy.


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## Mikelia (Aug 29, 2012)

I'll share my dirty puppy experience and what worked for us. 
Evie is a border collie mutt, foster failer from the shelter, I got her when she was 7 weeks old. At first it was just peeing in the crate and I would immediately take her outside and would always praise her for going outside. It was getting ridiculous with her peeing within 15 minutes of being in the crate. I started leaving her in the crate with her pee for 10 minutes or so, then taking her out of the crate and restraining her with a leash while I cleaned it and would put her right back into the crate. She only got to come out of the crate to play when it was dry. This worked and solved the problem until she was 5 months old or so and then she started pooping in the crate. Every day. Without fail. I would come home and she would be upside down laying in her own mess. We went to a smaller crate, that just made a nastier mess. I did everything that has been mentioned, she still pooped in her crate every day. So I put her in the biggest wire kennel so at least she could mess at one end and sleep in the other. I did not use pee pads in the crate, I did not want to encourage her to go in the crate. She started to stay out of the mess. She still pooped in her crate everyday, but at leash she learned to go in one end and sleep in the other. I did this for a few months and then put her into a smaller (appropriate for her size) plastic kennel. She pooped in it once, couldn't stay out of it (she got some on her tail) and we were pretty smooth sailing after that. 
I think that sometimes, when they've lost all desire to keep themselves clean, we need to give them the opportunity to re teach clean behaviours. Even if this means giving them the opportunity to mess inside. I was not going to win the battle of not pooping, I picked my battles wisely and gave her another option. Then, when she was older, with more control and newly taught clean habits, we re tried the smaller crate. She is still dirty in her crate occasionally (maybe three times a year), but she will always go in a corner, or she goes in the blanket and then rolls it up to the back of her crate. I can live with this


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So I'm going the route of keeping him in the crate and not letting him out until it remains dry. There was a look of confusion on his face when I cleaned around him and he couldn't come out. That doesn't mean he isn't going to test me. I let him out to pee at 515. He peed. I then fed him and let him out at about 6:45, he peed quite a bit. I put him in the crate and he peed in there at about 715. I cleaned it and left him in there(this is very hard to do because I hate a dirty dog). He then peed again and danced in it at about 8:00, I did the same thing. This is gonna be a long night. He isn't coming out until he stops peeing, I'm hoping he connects the two and the retraining works fairly quickly. He wants out of that crate. All he is doing is pacing and jumping up on it. I think that when he had an accident in the past he realized that got him out of the crate, so this is partly my fault. If this doesn't work in the next couple days, I'm going back to a leash with treats every half hour then hour and do on around the clock.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I don't know if this will help. If he is going potty in the crate because he wants out; maybe making the crate darker will help him settle and sleep better, thus leading to less need to potty as often. Or him wanting to be out of his crate because it will be a more comfy place for him.
When our girl was a puppy she didn't like her crate much until I made a cover for it. Once her crate was a nice dark place and she couldn't "see what she was missing" outside the crate she would settle nicely. This led to longer sleep periods and less waking to potty. I made it with sides that could be raised/lowered as I needed. I used a medium weight canvas that wasn't easily pulled through the crate reducing chewing risk. Crate covers are also available online. 

In the picture below the side is part way up.










Just a thought in a different direction. Seems like you've tried all the common tips and tricks.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've taken a couple suggestions and tried them, just like everything else, short lived. We are good for about a day and then it just fails. I tried the covered bigger crate and I switched him to the smaller crate. What a mess!! I literally spent an 1/2 hour crying tonite because I am so frustrated. I don't know what else to do. I can't take him smelling like pee or my house smelling like a kennel. I can't keep giving him baths and cleaning the carpets, I don't have the time to do this daily and that is exactly what I'm doing. I can't understand for the life of me how to get past this. It's driving me insane. I dread opening his crate and finding him drenched in pee, which happens daily. Today he was good all day, then he peed later on. Just as soon as I think I might be on to something, he pees


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Llombardo I feel so bad for you The only thing I can think of is putting two crates together.The smaller one for his bed,the larger one for a potty area.Might be less mess though it doesn't solve the problem either.This really sucks!


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## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

My heart goes out to you. A rough situation . . . . You've helped me so much with a reactive dog. I know you'll get this figured out. Midnite made you an expert on reactive dogs. Apollo is making you an expert on this. Another growth experience--who needs it when you are exhausted! Sending you positive energy.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Lykoz said:


> Walking around with him on leash and correcting when he wants to go and taking him outside to poo and reward could also work if nothing else works... He will have some accidents, but they eventually ussually catch on.


^^^Lisa, this has always worked for me. They are tied to me day and night until they get the idea. This includes the ol' out every time he eats, drinks, wakes up or plays. I was always fortunate, however, because while I worked, my sister was there and the puppy was then tied to her with the same routine. I know you work out of the house, so I don't know what to tell you about that time. Is there anyone you could have sit with him, or leave him with, while you're at work--someone willing to follow the same babysitting routine?

Also--are you absolutely sure it's nothing medical? especially the peeing.

Susan


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I've taken a couple suggestions and tried them, just like everything else, short lived. We are good for about a day and then it just fails. I tried the covered bigger crate and I switched him to the smaller crate. What a mess!! I literally spent an 1/2 hour crying tonite because I am so frustrated. I don't know what else to do. I can't take him smelling like pee or my house smelling like a kennel. I can't keep giving him baths and cleaning the carpets, I don't have the time to do this daily and that is exactly what I'm doing. I can't understand for the life of me how to get past this. It's driving me insane. I dread opening his crate and finding him drenched in pee, which happens daily. Today he was good all day, then he peed later on. Just as soon as I think I might be on to something, he pees


Do you have a laundry room or something suitable that you can put his bed in one corner and potty papers at the far end? I know you want to do the crate but it doesn't seem to be working. Why not give separation of bed and poop/pee areas at least 10 feet apart a chance to see if he has any shred of normal cleanliness left? Aren't you just as least curious at this point to see what he would do with a setup like that? Why not give this a chance?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

dogma13 said:


> Llombardo I feel so bad for you The only thing I can think of is putting two crates together.The smaller one for his bed,the larger one for a potty area.Might be less mess though it doesn't solve the problem either.This really sucks!


I was thinking this to, but I hate how it doesn't solve the issue. I hate that it is like giving him permission to pee in the house.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> ^^^Lisa, this has always worked for me. They are tied to me day and night until they get the idea. This includes the ol' out every time he eats, drinks, wakes up or plays. I was always fortunate, however, because while I worked, my sister was there and the puppy was then tied to her with the same routine. I know you work out of the house, so I don't know what to tell you about that time. Is there anyone you could have sit with him, or leave him with, while you're at work--someone willing to follow the same babysitting routine?
> 
> Also--are you absolutely sure it's nothing medical? especially the peeing.
> 
> Susan


He only pees in the crate. When he is out in the house he asks to go outside. It has everything to do with the crate. I just have him in the crate because I'm trying to train him to hold it all night so he can be out of the crate. One I know he will hold it I'm done with the stupid crate. He hates it and I hate it. I just need him to be able to hold it, which at this point he won't. He asks, if I don't respond, he will pee by the door.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Do you have a laundry room or something suitable that you can put his bed in one corner and potty papers at the far end? I know you want to do the crate but it doesn't seem to be working. Why not give separation of bed and poop/pee areas at least 10 feet apart a chance to see if he has any shred of normal cleanliness left? Aren't you just as least curious at this point to see what he would do with a setup like that? Why not give this a chance?


I have done this with the bathroom, the laundry room and an ex-pen. He got out of all of the above, when he was younger, there is no way it will work now that he is bigger. 

He barks and cries once he pees in the crate and he wants out which leads me to think he doesn't like being in it. 

The problem is him not caring and going in the crate when he needs to go, which defeats the crate training purpose. 

I'm taking him back to the vet this week. I want a blood panel and urinalysis done.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I have done this with the bathroom, the laundry room and an ex-pen. He got out of all of the above, when he was younger, there is no way it will work now that he is bigger.
> 
> He barks and cries once he pees in the crate and he wants out which leads me to think he doesn't like being in it.
> 
> ...


And, if his health is ok, I would again suggest a carpenter to put a barrier up into your laundry room that he can't get out of. If that's the problem (escape), then that option is still possible to work.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I just got a dachshund in this last board and train class that would only go to the bathroom inside the crate and then sit or lie down in it. The dog was getting 4-5 potty breaks a day in a yard where there was a lot of other dog scents to mark over and entice him to at least mark outside of the crate and nothing. 

The dog wouldn't spill even a single drop of urine outside of the crate. It was almost as if they had somehow trained the dog to only do it in the crate and I was dumbstruck and in awe as to how that dog could be loaded up with food and water and spend an hour out in that dog yard for over an hour and do nothing, be put into its crate and bam accident. The worst part was the dog didn't seem to mind sitting in its own filth.

So I decided to try something new. I loaded the dog up with food and water and stuck him in an x-pen that I was confident he couldn't escape out in that yard to stay all day so that the dog would be forced to start doing his business outside of the crate and would then have enough room to get away from it.

He went to the bathroom outside. He had to. I would put him back in his crate at night for safety reasons, but of course the next day when I came in he'd be right back in his own filth. I just cleaned the crate up as good as I could gave him a full bath for a clean restart and then tried it again. Well today I finally saw a beacon of hope. I crated him at around 11am this morning and came back at 2pm to him still in a clean crate. I moved him outside into the x-pen and he immediately went to the bathroom in one corner of the x-pen. So it is now clear he is on some level finding being in his own filth somewhat annoying if for no other reason if I find him in it I have to give him an annoying bath. So maybe I get my foot in the door to reverse his unintentional training and get him holding it in the crate and conditioning to doing his stuff outside, but I suspect its going to be a bumpy road.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Nice. A forced break in the cycle, totally new environment and no choice but room....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I actually changed the feeding schedule which helped a little bit. He hasn't pooped in the crate again since I took the diapers out of the equation. 

My laundry room is carpeted, I do not want him peeing in there at all.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Anybody have any pictures of ideas with two crates together? I need to have them both closed because he will escape. I love this dog to pieces and he is perfect in every other way.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

The image I had in my mind's eye was ...put the crates together with the sides open to each other(wire crates with ends removed or folded under)Fasten together with several clips(clips that are on the end of leashes)You can get clips at any hardware store.Plastic crates,I don't know.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Anybody have any pictures of ideas with two crates together? I need to have them both closed because he will escape. I love this dog to pieces and he is perfect in every other way.


What is your plan with 2 crates together? If you place them door-to-door, it would be hard getting him in and out. Can you take the back panels off and wire or clip them together without compromising the structural strength?

Susan


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## annap24 (Jul 22, 2014)

If you got a 2-door crate (one with a front door and side door), you could attach the other crate to the side door and put him in/out through the front door!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Both my wire crates have two doors each.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So today I put him in the bathroom behind three gates and the end height almost as tall as me. It looked like Fort Knox. Guess who greeted me at the door at lunch? After a quick look around I noticed nothing was eaten and no pee or poop. I let them out he peed twice and pooped. So I said screw it and let him stay out. I came home after work, nothing eaten and no signs of pee and poop. He met me at the door half asleep. So I let them out, he pees and poops then I feed them. He comes out of the crate and after about 5 minutes he starts to pee by the door. Since I caught him I told him no and made it like the worse thing in the world, moaning and groaning while I cleaned it and he watched with his head down. I then put him outside and told him to go potty, which he did and we had a party. I'm going to have to think out of the box and do everything I've never done before. He does not like when I'm upset with him and I might have to use that to my advantage. I have no problems with him staying out of the crate as long as he doesn't pee or poop in the house. He has never really chewed anything to begin with. He seems to want to be a big boy but he has to earn it. I almost think I have to let him pee in the house and reprimand him to get him to understand..complete reverse psychology on a dog.

I'm hoping he gets it and we can move forward. He is liking his crate more and more and won't eat unless his food is in there, he flies in there to eat and just looks at me. Right now he is curled up next to me enjoying his freedom which I want him to have. Not to mention a house that doesn't smell like a dog full of pee

One would think this potty training should be easy after all of these dogs, but every one has been different and I think I have learned every method out there.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

llombardo said:


> He only pees in the crate. When he is out in the house he asks to go outside. It has everything to do with the crate. I just have him in the crate because I'm trying to train him to hold it all night so he can be out of the crate. One I know he will hold it I'm done with the stupid crate. He hates it and I hate it. I just need him to be able to hold it, which at this point he won't. He asks, if I don't respond, he will pee by the door.


 
OK Lady, once more: Quit crating the dog! You don't have to win every battle, you don't need to declare this a war. Just quit crating the dog! How the heck hard is that?

From here it seems you are spending almost as much time rehashing this issue on the board as you probably are cleaning up after the guy. Think of all the time you will have when _you stop crating the dog! _


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> OK Lady, once more: Quit crating the dog! You don't have to win every battle, you don't need to declare this a war. Just quit crating the dog! How the heck hard is that?
> 
> From here it seems you are spending almost as much time rehashing this issue on the board as you probably are cleaning up after the guy. Think of all the time you will have when _you stop crating the dog! _


I hear you, but not many 6 month old dogs can be trusted out of a crate. Geez when he started this crap he was 4 months old. It makes me extremely nervous to have a pup this young out and about with the big dogs. God forbid there is a fight and I'm not home. It can be so dangerous in so many ways. I have to focus when I'm at work not worry if the dogs are ok. I'm not even requiring a crate. Behind a gated area where he is safe would be ok, if he would just stay there. 

I'm sure lke everything else I've tried this will be short lived 

He is going back to the vet on Saturday.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

My little booger sleeping on me. Completely content being close to me, always


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

So I went to take a shower this morning and I found it. Apparently before Apollo broke out of the bathroom yesterday he opened the shower door and pooped in there. The door was not open enough for me to check in there yesterday. So it looks like he went and closed the door behind him in efforts to hide it. I know it sounds crazy but I'm telling you what I found and how I found it. So that leads me to believe that he knows it's wrong? I do give him credit for being so smart about it.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

llombardo said:


> So I went to take a shower this morning and I found it. Apparently before Apollo broke out of the bathroom yesterday he opened the shower door and pooped in there. The door was not open enough for me to check in there yesterday. So it looks like he went and closed the door behind him in efforts to hide it. I know it sounds crazy but I'm telling you what I found and how I found it. So that leads me to believe that he knows it's wrong? I do give him
> credit for being so smart about it.


The only good thing about that is he did not eat it!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Debanneball said:


> The only good thing about that is he did not eat it!


Oh but he did 

All that was left was the stain mark. He was really trying to get rid of the evidence!!


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## Ruger Monster (Jan 29, 2015)

llombardo said:


> So I went to take a shower this morning and I found it. Apparently before Apollo broke out of the bathroom yesterday he opened the shower door and pooped in there. The door was not open enough for me to check in there yesterday. So it looks like he went and closed the door behind him in efforts to hide it. I know it sounds crazy but I'm telling you what I found and how I found it. So that leads me to believe that he knows it's wrong? I do give him credit for being so smart about it.


Ruger hides his poop from me too if he has an accident in his crate while I'm at work - he'll put his bed over it ... 

My battle of the bathroom with him has improved at night (have been putting his crate in the corner of our bedroom, similar to how it was at the hotel over the weekend when we had 0 accidents) - been sleeping through the night since Friday with no accidents. Before, he usually would at least pee in his crate at night, with the occasional poop. *Knock on wood I didn't just jinx it!*

Btw, that picture of your booger cuddling with you is sooo cute. I look forward to some Ru cuddles when he learns how to RELAX for a minute


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I think what the dogs know is that the human is obsessed (sp) with dog crap, that humans get all excited about it (either running to pick it up in the yard before they eat it, getting upset when we find it in the house...)..


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> I think what the dogs know is that the human is obsessed (sp) with dog crap, that humans get all excited about it (either running to pick it up in the yard before they eat it, getting upset when we find it in the house...)..


Your probably correct. They love it we hate it. I can't pretend it does not bother me


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

Llombardo, it sounds like you've tried all you can. I hate to say this but my female, Jasira, didn't completely quit going in her kennel until she was 2 years old. Xerxes, on the other hand, was the easiest dog I ever house broke. Practically from the day I got him home at 10 weeks old, he would hold it for incredible lengths of time. ( I got no help and had to work an 8 hours shift with no lunch break.)


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I left him out again. Went home today at lunch and he was sleeping. No accidents, but I fed him. So I take him out and in telling him go poo poo, he goes and starts eating poo poo. I actually told him not eat poo poo, go poo poo which he did not, so I might have a surprise when I go home after work.


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