# Pattern, Pattern, Pattern, Pattern, Pattern....



## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I hate seeing people only work the pattern! That's NOT TRAINING! Pattern, pattern, pattern, pattern. It's memorization! It's the equivalent of teachers teaching to a test and not curriculum. Pattern, pattern, pattern, pattern! It gets on my nerves! Your dog wouldn't anticipate if it didn't know what was coming next! Pattern, pattern, pattern! Ahh!!!! Rant over now.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I never work the pattern, other than doing the sendout after the retrieve work. I don't mind the dog anticipating that part of the routine.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

I have to admit, I caught myself doing this the other day. I know better. 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I just hate seeing it. In obedience or protection. Train the dog to do what you tell it when you tell it. It's okay to work scenarios of a routine, but break it up! Geeze! Don't just run the full pattern every time you "train".


Edit: As a helper, I really hate doing it! Over and over! Talk about boring!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

mycobraracr said:


> I just hate seeing it. In obedience or protection. Train the dog to do what you tell it when you tell it. It's okay to work scenarios of a routine, but break it up! Geeze! Don't just run the full pattern every time you "train".



I agree. And I kick myself when I catch myself. I prefer to break things up. But it's tough when you are preparing for a trial. You wanna make sure you got the routine down. So I catch myself running through it. 


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I agree. And I kick myself when I catch myself. I prefer to break things up. But it's tough when you are preparing for a trial. You wanna make sure you got the routine down. So I catch myself running through it.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



I completely understand wanting to be sure you have the pattern down before a trial. The way I see it though, if you're ready to trial your dog should know what to do in those circumstances. For example, you can work your foot work for an about turn without heeling for fifty paces first. You can work sit and downs in motion without doing them in any order or facing a specific direction. The handler can walk the pattern without the dog to get a feel for it. In both ob and protection. You can work blinds without doing a call out and escape. The list can go forever.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mycobraracr said:


> I just hate seeing it. In obedience or protection. Train the dog to do what you tell it when you tell it. It's okay to work scenarios of a routine, but break it up! Geeze! Don't just run the full pattern every time you "train".
> 
> 
> Edit: As a helper, I really hate doing it! Over and over! Talk about boring!


Reality: it's an easier and quicker path to points on a sheet. It's not teaching a behavior though.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Do mondio. No pattern


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

As far as IPO goes; Don't "rant" about things you don't understand. After more than a few years doing this sport I have found that those who are ardently opposed to "pattern training" and "want a 'real' dog who will respond in every circumstance" never do well and never really understand training. They can never grasp how each exercise leads to the next and how to use one exercise to either make or relieve pressure for the next. 

If you are doing helper work and find it "boring" then you truly do not understand the nuances of the work. Truly, it is working within the pattern and refining the little things where a true helper shines. A trained monkey can make a dog bite or show aggression or show any behavior when he is free to act as he wills. It takes a true helper to have a dog display the best behaviors while working within the narrow constructs of the routine.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> As far as IPO goes; Don't "rant" about things you don't understand. After more than a few years doing this sport I have found that those who are ardently opposed to "pattern training" and "want a 'real' dog who will respond in every circumstance" never do well and never really understand training. They can never grasp how each exercise leads to the next and how to use one exercise to either make or relieve pressure for the next.
> 
> If you are doing helper work and find it "boring" then you truly do not understand the nuances of the work. Truly, it is working within the pattern and refining the little things where a true helper shines. A trained monkey can make a dog bite or show aggression or show any behavior when he is free to act as he wills. It takes a true helper to have a dog display the best behaviors while working within the narrow constructs of the routine.



So only the exercises in the pattern, in the order of the pattern can relieve pressure? Which one is a trained monkey? A good helper should be able to read the dog and do what it needs at that time. Weather that's relieving pressure or adding it. 

Oh I believe you that dogs that are only worked in a pattern do better. Just like students who are only taught the answers to a test do better. Doesn't make it right IMO. Also to clarify I'm not talking about any specific sport.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Woooooo thems fightin words


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Just talked about this with my training group today! I don't work a pattern... maybe once in a blue moon. One of the people I train with likes to make up random patterns for us, which I love! I avoid patterns to keep my dog thinking, focusing, engaged, awaiting eagerly to find out what is next.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I am not going to waste a lot of time "debating" you. You don't understand training and I am not going to bother typing until my fingers fall off to no avail. That much is obvious from your posts and videos. As Rumsfeld famously said "You don't know what you don't know". Please continue learning about dogs and the sport; perhaps someday you will understand training. 

Perhaps I should add that I have "Mondio Ring" people coming to me for help in their training. It has nothing to do with the training venue of the dog. It has to do with understanding dogs and understanding training. 

Since you don't know who I am perhaps I should also add that I did a large percentage of the helper work of a recent USA Nationals winner and have also done the helper work for several other national and international competitors.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Imo a sport dog should be all patterns and routines. Isn't the point of doing a sport is to get the highest score possible?


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

If my dog anticipates a command, it means she is thinking. And I am happy about that  I can fix thinking too early, but its much harder to fix a dog who isn't thinking on their own at all. If anticipation becomes a normal habit of the dog, then it really is an underlying obedience issue overall, and the dog not obeying or understanding the command given. 

When I train, I do many pieces of the routine, broken up. But its almost always usually in order that they appear in trial. I personally want my dog anticipating like a send out following a retrieve. This sport comes down to the points alone.


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## MilesNY (Aug 12, 2010)

Depending on the sport patterning and anticipation are very important if you are looking to compete. Mondio is testing different things so is not judged on the quickness and precision in which the dog did a certain behavior. They hand you any object to retrieve but don't judge speed, presentation or hold really. IPO is the same dumbbell, same obstacles and same order, so they are looking at those things. For the quickest sharpest response the dog needs to be anticipating what comes next. Personally I train all the pieces and because I am looking to branch out from IPO with my female, I have not patterned as much yet. Come time for her trial and she will start patterning all the exercises so that I can get max points. My male I am just finishing his three this spring and you bet I have been patterning it. You want a fast sharp stand out of running, you make sure the dog knows that is what is coming so he is prepared for it. 


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The helper I work with gave me the advice that whenever I actually do the pattern, reward the dog in key spots on the field so when I do trial, my dog will expect that reward(in the boring parts of the routine or the parts where the anticipation helps~middle of the heeling pattern, about turns, before going into the group, etc) anticipating the reward that doesn't come in the trial will bring up the enthusiasm and anticipation. 
The dog does need to build up endurance with no reward coming before trial, so I'll do the pattern a few times then.

Running for the stand, isn't really what I'd call pattern training, but part of the actual exercise.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Have seen imported dogs who have been pattern trained have NO CLUE what sit means - or down or any command....they do the pattern but do not know anything out of context. I saw people take a really nice nice nice Aly son who had great scores in Germany and pattern train him into the ground and totally ruin him..

Personally - I think pattern training is more "traditional" and there are many doing more progressive styles of training....

If points and competition are your priority and that is the style you are are "brought up" in so to speak, I am sure it will work well for you. But I think there are many people who want more from their relationship with a dog than running a pattern.

Lee


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

I really don't think think training from a pattern has any effect on my relationship with my dog. I typically run my motion exercises in pattern. It's a cue to my dog as to what comes next. I also have body cues for them as well. Just different ways to maximize points in trial. 

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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Dog training author Sheila Booth recommends training the pattern in her book Schutzhund obedience, training in drive.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Sometimes I like patterns, sometimes not. When I don't like them, I do agility. Then I usually make a fool of myself, let my instructor run the dog through the sequence/course so she can prove to me my dog is awesome and I am an idiot, and then I go back to flyball or polishing retrieves, lol. It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. I value good, responsive helperwork and working with helpers and decoys that are creative and like to challenge and test the dog in different ways, but I also like that a trial is predictable and of all the factors I can't control, I at least know what to expect and can spend some time in the months or weeks leading up to the trial preparing for that. I wouldn't enter if I didn't want to do really well. For all the people that come on forums like this and say they want to do Schutzhund "just for fun" and "don't really care" about learning the patterns or scoring points, how many of those people have actually titled a dog? How many entered a trial and really didn't give a rip about the pattern?


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Usually I'll work on whatever needs work. I think it's important during the fundamentals to get the dog to generalize as much as possible and listen to the command rather than anticipate and start offering what behavior they think the command for is coming. To instill that behavior in him separately (I have not done so and now work a lot to counteract my training mistakes).

Then, I don't know it really depends on the dog. I've seen dogs that do much better in the predictable regime of a pattern and dogs that start to get bored and flatten out.

Personally, I don't do patterns with my dog. That's because he is ALWAYS anticipating. always thinking. One very known helper out of Boston who I respect very much said he's one of the more clear headed dogs that he worked, always thinking. Now, he probably doesn't even remember working my dog but that was his comment at the time and that is something I agree with. But it becomes a problem with him. He'll anticipate everything. So we change it up. 

ex: sometimes we will heel to the dumbbell and not even pick it up, instead reward and be done for the day. The reason is otherwise he is looking at the dumbbell from the moment we make our way there and it builds up anticipation in him to the point where he will leak. So, for this particular dog we ALWAYS change it up and it worked well for us so far.

Blinds is another one, I never ever ever send him to blinds in order and that worked well for us so far. We also never have the helper in the same blind.

So we really only do a pattern ONCE a few weeks before a trial (mock trial but with rewards when we feel is appropriate) to see if there are any lingering issues but otherwise with MY dog patterns don't work well for us.

But that is just what worked for ME and MY dog, not a general rule that I feel every single handler/helper out there must follow.

Some of the dogs I work do better when things are predictable and others do better when you really give them a curveball every time. Is that the way dogs SHOULD be? I don't know but I'm not a breeder so I don't make those decisions. I just change things up to tailor them to each individual dog and bring the best out of them. 

I do try to push ALL dogs as far as I can by changing things up but I won't avoid patterns simply because I have a rule in my head that patterns are bad bad bad. The rule in my head is that there are no rules, and every dog needs to be worked differently.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I like to think of the pattern in IPO as a Kata in Karate.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

robk said:


> I like to think of the pattern in IPO as a Kata in Karate.


Kata and similar pattern training was deliberately stripped out of brazilian jiu jitsu... which has proven to be the most effective 1 on 1 unarmed combat the world has seen for actual real world use.

Just saying...


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Bits of pattern -- very rarely the whole thing in one burst. It's been drilled into me to spend just a few minutes on the field at a time.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

middleofnowhere said:


> Bits of pattern -- very rarely the whole thing in one burst. It's been drilled into me to spend just a few minutes on the field at a time.


I agree with this. I detest a long drawn out training session. I like to leave the field when the dog is at his highest.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

robk said:


> I agree with this. I detest a long drawn out training session. I like to leave the field when the dog is at his highest.


In the beginning yes. I do notice that handlers tend to get *stuck* on finishing at the highest point. Eventually you WILL need to teach the dog how to hold his drive for longer and stay at that level longer. So as long as one is making a conscious effort to keep the dog at a higher state of drive longer and longer and rewarding later and later, and then sporadically, I'm fine with it.

I find dogs that are ready to go for the IPO1 if they only had to do one or two exercises. But then, they start to flatten out after the heeling. Why? because they never worked on transitioning between exercises and they never taught the dog to contain his drive for longer and longer - that takes a conscious effort on the handler's part.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'll admit I often train longer than I would at home when I'm with the club. I need to make use of resources I only have available a few times a month: space, equipment, GOOD PEOPLE spotting and coaching me. I will say that often I have a plan in my head of what I want help with that day and as soon as my dog steps onto the field that whole plan can change!

I often do exercises in groups but not always the groups in trial order. For example, I always do three retrieves in trial order and I usually do all three out of motion exercises, but I may do retrieves first and then the out of motions. I haven't done forced retrieves so the send out isn't as important paired with retrieves.

I don't know that pattern training really matters much either way. I've seen dogs insanely pattern trained blow exercises (down a sit, finish the wrong way). I've seen dogs not patterned trained show wonderful consistency. Honestly I think it mostly boils down to training style and matters more to us handlers than the dogs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

IPO isn't really about functionality in the real world though, so how would a pattern inhibit it anyways?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

GatorDog said:


> IPO isn't really about functionality in the real world though, so how would a pattern inhibit it anyways?


It wouldn't, it would help get higher points, faster. I've said many times before I knowingly train certain things that I know full well will cost me some measure of points in an IPO trial. Thats not good or bad, its just that my set of training goals overlap with, but are still quite different to the training goals that someone who's primary motivation is high points or competing in IPO


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> In the beginning yes. I do notice that handlers tend to get *stuck* on finishing at the highest point. Eventually you WILL need to teach the dog how to hold his drive for longer and stay at that level longer. So as long as one is making a conscious effort to keep the dog at a higher state of drive longer and longer and rewarding later and later, and then sporadically, I'm fine with it.
> 
> I find dogs that are ready to go for the IPO1 if they only had to do one or two exercises. But then, they start to flatten out after the heeling. Why? because they never worked on transitioning between exercises and they never taught the dog to contain his drive for longer and longer - that takes a conscious effort on the handler's part.


This is a good point and is someting that I am working on.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Excellent posts by Art and Ayoitzrimz.


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

I pattern train myself, never the dog!

I walk that pattern (sans dog) over and over again, because I don't want to have to think about what to do next while I am out there, I need to focus on working with my dog. I do this until I can gauge "paces" by feeling, not by counting in my head.

I break down exercises for my dogs and cross train in various venues that will eventually help each other.

I do run my dogs through the pattern a few times a couple days before the trial, so I can check that there is a complete understanding of each exercise and that I have done my job to teach them, otherwise, we never do a complete pattern during training.

Agility is the hardest for me, as the "pattern" changes everytime, so I have less ability to memorize. It is my favorite sport, because it is the most challenging for me.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Zahnburg said:


> I am not going to waste a lot of time "debating" you. You don't understand training and I am not going to bother typing until my fingers fall off to no avail. That much is obvious from your posts and videos. As Rumsfeld famously said "You don't know what you don't know". Please continue learning about dogs and the sport; perhaps someday you will understand training.
> 
> Perhaps I should add that I have "Mondio Ring" people coming to me for help in their training. It has nothing to do with the training venue of the dog. It has to do with understanding dogs and understanding training.
> 
> Since you don't know who I am perhaps I should also add that I did a large percentage of the helper work of a recent USA Nationals winner and have also done the helper work for several other national and international competitors.



Here are the videos I have posted in order from most recent to oldest. Please feel free to show me where it's obvious I don't have an understanding of training. Thanks. 

Kiersten and Heidi 2 2 14 - YouTube

Kiersten and Heidi 8-8-13 - YouTube

Heidi Protection 4-20-13 - YouTube


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The German Shepherd should be one of the most intuitive, thinking dog in the working world. The breed was built on discernment and the ability to recognize certain elements and react/act. It was built to freely express certain behavior when confronted with certain circumstances within the boundaries of their training....ie Herding dog or LE dog. As a sport dog for points, I think that pattern training is the surest way to highest point objective for most people. I think that people that are heavily involved in sport( IPO in particular) tend to place very high value on pattern training, but for people training working dogs( and my definition of working dog is a dog that must execute their training in different places, different circumstances, and have no idea what to expect from day to day as these changes or unknowns surface,( like SAR dog, Guide dog, LE dog, or real herding dog), then dog training ( of which pattern training is a part) is needed for dog to be capable to effectively deal with unknown elements and use their ability to discern and act. 
I personally think extreme pattern training is an insult to the ability/capability of this breed, but I fully understand it's evolution, just as I understand the evolution of IPO from testing of breedworthiness to high sport competition.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

mycobraracr said:


> Here are the videos I have posted in order from most recent to oldest. Please feel free to show me where it's obvious I don't have an understanding of training. Thanks.
> 
> Kiersten and Heidi 2 2 14 - YouTube
> 
> ...


I only have one comment - you live in CA and are training on 4/20?!?!?!!?!? jk jk but isn't it like a national holiday in CA?


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I only have one comment - you live in CA and are training on 4/20?!?!?!!?!? jk jk but isn't it like a national holiday in CA?



Haha I don't want to hear it. You live in Denver


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I only have one comment - you live in CA and are training on 4/20?!?!?!!?!? jk jk but isn't it like a national holiday in CA?


 I bet people will be flocking to CO this year on 4/20....hope the supply keeps up with the demand!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

There is a rather high correlation between sport dog trainers and recreational drig use


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Baillif said:


> There is a rather high correlation between sport dog trainers and recreational drig use


Wait is it misinformation Thursday already? Or are we getting an extra one for april fools?

Jane - it will be insane this year for sure but there'll be plenty to go around


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Maybe just the ones hanging around me then


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

stress relief is the common bond....


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> The German Shepherd should be one of the most intuitive, thinking dog in the working world. The breed was built on discernment and the ability to recognize certain elements and react/act. It was built to freely express certain behavior when confronted with certain circumstances within the boundaries of their training....ie Herding dog or LE dog. As a sport dog for points, I think that pattern training is the surest way to highest point objective for most people. I think that people that are heavily involved in sport( IPO in particular) tend to place very high value on pattern training, but for people training working dogs( and my definition of working dog is a dog that must execute their training in different places, different circumstances, and have no idea what to expect from day to day as these changes or unknowns surface,( like SAR dog, Guide dog, LE dog, or real herding dog), then dog training ( of which pattern training is a part) is needed for dog to be capable to effectively deal with unknown elements and use their ability to discern and act.
> I personally think extreme pattern training is an insult to the ability/capability of this breed, but I fully understand it's evolution, just as I understand the evolution of IPO from testing of breedworthiness to high sport competition.


Very well said. :thumbup:


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Cliff said it all....and very well! :thumbup:

Lee


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## lsatov (Mar 29, 2011)

Well said Cliff.
I compete in IPO, I train the dog, then the behavior. Never do patterns, never have difficulty with transitions. I do get high in trial. 
I find not doing pattern training increases engagement and attention on me.

That being said will be working on IPO2 and 3 this summer will see how this approach works.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Patterns are not for me . I can't do them . 

so what is the usefulness of the sport?

doesn't seem to say anything about intelligence of the dog . If an incompetent handler has a dog that dog won't display his genetics to the best - how , then are the best dogs chosen for breeding . Or are they?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Totally useless and make IPO/Schh so easy even high school kids can do it. So no point in working to achieve something so easy and watered down as it is even easier to just breed whatever  After all it is a free country.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

People with the eye for it can tell a bad ass dog is a bad ass dog watching a bad ass dog do pretty much anything because they do it like a bad ass dog. For everyone else there is the scoreboard. Doesn't tell the whole story of course but it is as good a bench mark as any. The training required to squeeze the precision, accuracy, and intensity out of them to be competitive at the highest levels of that sport do a pretty good job filtering the wheat from the chaff in and of itself.


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## Suka (Apr 9, 2004)

This is why I am so attracted to and training in PSA. Different scenarios and different distractions in every trial, forcing absolute obedience to the handler and enforcing a handler dog relationship that must work as a team in ever-changing situations. I had never been attracted to bitework until I saw my first PSA trial.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Packen said:


> Totally useless and make IPO/Schh so easy even high school kids can do it. So no point in working to achieve something so easy and watered down as it is even easier to just breed whatever  After all it is a free country.


High school kids SHOULD do it. How cool is it when a young person really takes an interest in something like IPO that they can grow in as they go through life.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

robk said:


> High school kids SHOULD do it. How cool is it when a young person really takes an interest in something like IPO that they can grow in as they go through life.


Yes


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