# Anyone Heard of Kerstone Shepherds?



## tmnamba

Hey All!

My wife and I are looking to purchase a GSD puppy and I would love your advice/input on a GSD breeder we found in Abilene Kansas. The name of the breeder is Kerstone Shepherds, below is a link to her webpage. I would love it if y'all could take a look and let me know how you feel about her and her dogs. Thank you in advance for any advice! 

Kerstone German Shepherds - White, Long-coat, Panda, Liver, Blue, Solid Black, Sable, Bi-color

-Thom


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## Jax08

I would not buy from them based on what they are breeding. Blue and liver are considered faults. They are beautiful dogs and healthwise there is not anything that you would need to be worried about, but the fact that they are selling the "blues" and "fawns" at a higher price is suspicious. If they are breeding for color, then they are ignoring temperament and health. 

They are doing health testing, so definitely in their favor. What are they doing to ensure temperament and breed within the standards set forth for the GSD? What are they trying to accomplish with their breeding program?

I am not slamming her dogs in any way. Just questions you should ask and things you need to be aware of.


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## 4TheDawgies

I would NOT recommend buying from this breeder for multiple reasons!

If you are interested I know of some good breeders in the area that I would highly recommend. You are welcome to PM me and I can send you the links


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## sashadog

I think the thing that stands out to me the most is that they have ALOT of dogs and quite a few litters on the ground with more planned for the year. They also don't have any titles on any of their dogs other than a few UKC confirmation championships. Not even just no ScH titles but no obedience, no agility, nothing. In my opinion this is how breeders "prove" their dogs intelligence and working ability. Even just to know that they're doing regular obedience work and investing in the potential of their dogs would be important for me. 

Like Jax said, this is not inherently a bad thing but combine that with their focus on coat color as well as their varying prices and I would be suspicious...


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## tmnamba

Thank you all for your input so far. I didn't really like the fact that she had so many litters at one time, I couldn't imagine being able to adequatley handle that many little GSD's. Can anyone recommend any breeders? I live in missouri, but would travel to kansas.


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## 4TheDawgies

tmnamba said:


> Thank you all for your input so far. I didn't really like the fact that she had so many litters at one time, I couldn't imagine being able to adequatley handle that many little GSD's. Can anyone recommend any breeders? I live in missouri, but would travel to kansas.


Replied to your PM


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## Jax08

Look up Crooked Creek. Karen is a member of this board and in Mo.. What are you looking for? There is Huerta Hof in Illinois also.


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## 4TheDawgies

It will also help for this thread to continue getting some attention if you could let us know which lines of German shepherds you are interested in. what you plan to do with the dog? 

Companion pet, Agility, Schutzhund, Conformation Showing?

Czech Working Line, East German Working Line, West German Working Line, West German Show line, etc.

Here is a link to show you the differences in look and body type depending on the line they are from
Shawlein Fine Art & Purebred German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore

Not to pry, but didn't you have a deposit on a pup you were supposed to be picking up right about now? Did that not work out?


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## Andaka

GSDC of St. Louis
[email protected]

GSDC of Grtr Kansas City
[email protected]

They may be able to help you find a dog.


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## tmnamba

I am not particulary concerned with which type, I am partial to working line as I had a friend with an amazing working line dutchie / mal who is no longer with us. 

However, I just want a stable level headed GSD for my wife, children, and myself. 

Thank you all for your help thus far!


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## tmnamba

Emoore, 

We did have a deposit on one, I am still not very comfortable with that selection though. 

I just found out today that the poor mother of the litter passed away after the birth of the pups and I was never told. 

Not to be rude, but, the mother is the single most important part of the litter mentality and I think it is rude to not inform a potential buyer of her passing. 

I am not willing to purchase a dog that will end up with weak nerves and put myself or family or possibly worse an innocent stranger at risk due to its poor breeding.


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## Emoore

Oh wow, sorry to hear that about the mother of your prospective pup. 

It seems to me that strong nerves and a stable temperament are the most important thing to you in a dog. This may not be the case for everyone-- others look primarily for working ability, sport ability, color, size, health, hips, etc. And that's fine. 

If, for you, nerves/temperament are the #1 most important thing, I think the best thing you can do for yourself is buy from a breeder who evaluates nerves and temperament in their breeding stock through some sort of competitive venue. Simply saying, "We breed for temperament" just isn't enough. If you say nerves and temperament are the most important thing and then you buy from a breeder who doesn't stringently evaluate them, you'r really doing a disservice to yourself.


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## Freestep

tmnamba said:


> I am not willing to purchase a dog that will end up with weak nerves and put myself or family or possibly worse an innocent stranger at risk due to its poor breeding.


Then you want to go with a breeder that puts health and temperament above color! Look for someone who trains and titles their dogs, if not in SchH, then at least obedience, agility, or something that shows their dogs are stable, trainable, and have good nerve.


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## GSDBESTK9

********comment removed by Admin** I would not walk but RUN the other way. Pretty sad.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Anyone who charges based on COLORS is not worth the time!

Why would you want a German Shepherd that is tri-colored and looks like a silly panda? 

The fact that they breed for faulty color shows that their dogs have no other worthy traits, IMO.

PS: Click their females page and count how many breeding females they have!

PPS: We have MANY very reputable breeders on this site. I would take a look!


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## tmnamba

I know it is quite annoying that we weren't informed of the mother. 

Its so difficult living in Missouri as it appears there are several less than ideal breeders around here. 

Thanks everybody for your opinions and advice.


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## Emoore

Off the top of my head I don't know of any good ones in MO. I do, however, know of some good ones in TN, KY, IL, and OK. How far are you willing to go?


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## JakodaCD OA

I would also check out Karen's dogs at Crooked Creek. Beautiful dogs, I think she does a good job raising them, puppies she has produced are doing SAR/obed/agility among other things..


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## NewbieShepherdGirl

Not sure if you'd be willing to rescue or not but I got my girl from an amazing GSD rescue in MO. 

Animal Browse

One plus is you know what you're getting personality and temperament wise (especially if you go with a young adult/adult). Feel free to PM me with any questions, if you're interested.


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## Mrs.K

JakodaCD OA said:


> I would also check out Karen's dogs at Crooked Creek. Beautiful dogs, I think she does a good job raising them, puppies she has produced are doing SAR/obed/agility among other things..


I like the way how she is raising her dogs. :wub:


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## tmnamba

We would be willing to rescue for sure. I just kinda like the idea of knowing what my dog has encountered as a puppy and adolescent. 

I am willing to travel a good distance. If i can drive there in 6 or so hours Im okay with that. I think that would include Illinois Arkansas Nebraska maybe? I haven't been in MO long sorry : )

My wife and I have also been looking at crooked creek ranch. I hear nothing but great things about her!


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## MaggieRoseLee

If you can take a chance and read up on --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html you'll be in a much better situation with your knowledge when you continue with your search for a GSD. 





tmnamba said:


> Hey All!
> 
> My wife and I are looking to purchase a GSD puppy and I would love your advice/input on a GSD breeder we found in Abilene Kansas. The name of the breeder is Kerstone Shepherds, below is a link to her webpage. I would love it if y'all could take a look and let me know how you feel about her and her dogs. Thank you in advance for any advice!
> 
> Kerstone German Shepherds - White, Long-coat, Panda, Liver, Blue, Solid Black, Sable, Bi-color
> 
> -Thom


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## Emoore

Mrs.K said:


> I like the way how she is raising her dogs. :wub:


Could you clarify on that? I don't know much about Crooked Creek, just thought it was an interesting thing for you to say.


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## RubyTuesday

IF Kerstone GSD appeal to you then talk extensively to the breeder & if still interested arrange to see the dogs.

There's an impressive amount of health screening done. Some of the dogs have achieved championships. Some have SchH titled grandparents. Some have been evaluated for herding instincts. It appears they might do agility or obdience with some as well. I don't think the breeder is ignorant of, or indifferent to, GSD temperament & abilities.

I'm not enamored of whites or dilutes. I frankly dislike panda coloring/markings. Despite my preferences & the standard, good GSDs are available in those colors as well as the AKC acceptable colors. To each his own, but I wouldn't eliminate a breeder from consideration simply b/c those colors were available or used for breeding.

The markup on certain colors strikes me as both silly & desirable...Desirable b/c my preferred colors are the least expensive. *shrug*Many breeders don't do things as I would. This wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. 

Speaking of that markup...IF these are healthy, sound, long lived GSDs with good temperaments they are truly a bargain. Even the more expensive colors were very reasonably priced. Note, that's if & only if the dogs check out as healthy, sound, desirable companions. 

I do not personally know anything about this breeder but if the dogs appeal to you (& many are quite handsome) it's certainly worth looking into further.

IF you call the breeder be very specific as to what information you're seeking & what answers you need to hear to continue considering the dogs. Is the breeder open, honest, knowledgeable ? Is s/he enthusiastic about the breed in general & his/her breeding program in particular? 

Whatever you do, do not look at puppies. Look at mature dogs & if possible the mature offspring of breedings you're interested in. ALL pups are cute. They just are. You'll have that cute pup for a very few months. It's important to stay focused on the dog/bitch you want your adorable pup to mature into.


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## Mrs.K

I don't know. Personally, despite the achievements, health screening and titles... any breeder charging extra money for a _rare _color is off the list.


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## Mrs.K

Emoore said:


> Could you clarify on that? I don't know much about Crooked Creek, just thought it was an interesting thing for you to say.


https://www.facebook.com/media/albums/?id=356651778523


From what I can tell, these are some very happy dogs. 

I know Facebook can be deceiving but from everything I've seen on Facebook and her Website it's a German Shepherd Heaven!

Page Title


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## RubyTuesday

MrsK, my biggest concern with her pricing is that it's almost too good to be true. IF I was looking at this breeder, I'd certainly look closely b/c there aren't many truly nice quality companion pups going for $500 (BT) or even $800 (liver). I think the pricing is wonky but it would be to my benefit as I prefer BT & sables over dilutes or whites. IF it was the liver I preferred, (assuming a good match with temperament & gender), $800 would still be a bargain compared to what I've seen charged elsewhere. 

Naturally, those prices are a bargain only if the dogs are generally sound, healthy, long lived & with solid temperaments. Given the comprehensive heath testing that's done, the descriptions of the individual dogs & their family backgrounds, there's a good chance they'd meet those criteria.

To each his own, but IF these dogs were in line with what *I* wanted, I'd rather spend $500 getting a well suited pup, than demonstrating my high minded principles by spending $1200-$1800 elsewhere.

I personally think it's screwy but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.


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## 4TheDawgies

I dont understand why people like ** breeder name removed by ADMIN***. 
Can anyone clarify for me?

Viewing pedigrees of dogs it looks like the dogs are coming from Back yard Breeders or puppy mills with the silly names like "****", "*****" "****". Those are the only places I have ever seen names like that. 


Of which about 5 dogs from the 3 generation pedigree are not listed on the pedigree so theres a lovely hole we get to play the guessing game at. Sure the female is OFA good which is great and all, but there is only ONE dog in the entire pedigree with a hip history. 

This continues on and proves to be a consistent thing going on for multiple dogs of theirs.... "*******". 

She raises her dogs on a farm, She has a similar large property that she walks with her dogs on and lets them explore. 
She also advertises on Animaroo.com as well, an awesome puppy peddling website. 

I don't understand where all of this translates into a responsible and reputable breeder..

I didn't know letting your dogs explore nature made you a good breeder....

Sorry I just couldn't stay quiet on this... I have no idea what you people see in this breeder and I am quite curious to have someone point out what I am clearly missing.


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## RubyTuesday

4TheDawgies, what do you personally know of her dogs? IF you don't have any solid info on the dogs themselves then your rather wild & unflattering conjectures aren't especially useful.

Those who have experience with her dogs seem to be very happy with them & with her. I don't know her. I don't know her dogs, but I'm considerably more impressed with what people say that have known & owned the dogs themselves.


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## IllinoisGSD

RubyTuesday said:


> 4TheDawgies, what do you personally know of her dogs? IF you don't have any solid info on the dogs themselves then your rather wild & unflattering conjectures aren't especially useful.
> 
> Those who have experience with her dogs seem to be very happy with them & with her. I don't know her. I don't know her dogs, but I'm considerably more impressed with what people say that have known & owned the dogs themselves.


Are you so defensive because they're a member here? 4TheDawgies raises a legitimate point. If it was someone else people would tell people to run the other way bases on what the pedigree says about her dogs.


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## Konotashi

RubyTuesday said:


> IF Kerstone GSD appeal to you then talk extensively to the breeder & if still interested arrange to see the dogs.
> 
> There's an impressive amount of health screening done. Some of the dogs have achieved championships. Some have SchH titled grandparents. Some have been evaluated for herding instincts. It appears they might do agility or obdience with some as well. I don't think the breeder is ignorant of, or indifferent to, GSD temperament & abilities.
> 
> I'm not enamored of whites or dilutes. I frankly dislike panda coloring/markings. Despite my preferences & the standard, good GSDs are available in those colors as well as the AKC acceptable colors. To each his own, but I wouldn't eliminate a breeder from consideration simply b/c those colors were available or used for breeding.
> 
> The markup on certain colors strikes me as both silly & desirable...Desirable b/c my preferred colors are the least expensive. *shrug*Many breeders don't do things as I would. This wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.
> 
> Speaking of that markup...IF these are healthy, sound, long lived GSDs with good temperaments they are truly a bargain. Even the more expensive colors were very reasonably priced. Note, that's if & only if the dogs check out as healthy, sound, desirable companions.
> 
> I do not personally know anything about this breeder but if the dogs appeal to you (& many are quite handsome) it's certainly worth looking into further.
> 
> IF you call the breeder be very specific as to what information you're seeking & what answers you need to hear to continue considering the dogs. Is the breeder open, honest, knowledgeable ? Is s/he enthusiastic about the breed in general & his/her breeding program in particular?
> 
> Whatever you do, do not look at puppies. Look at mature dogs & if possible the mature offspring of breedings you're interested in. ALL pups are cute. They just are. You'll have that cute pup for a very few months. It's important to stay focused on the dog/bitch you want your adorable pup to mature into.


This. 

I see more health screening done on her dogs than I have seen on any other breeder's site.

At least she's getting them health tested and doing something with them besides picking out the coolest colors and breeding them together like most unscrupulous 'color' breeders.


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## Mrs.K

IllinoisGSD said:


> Are you so defensive because they're a member here? 4TheDawgies raises a legitimate point. If it was someone else people would tell people to run the other way bases on what the pedigree says about her dogs.


Actually... I like Karen. She is a very nice person I've never really checked into all the pedigrees but I do know that a couple of her dogs do come from european and czech working lines. Her dogs are active in sport and working homes and her Ranch isn't exactly BYB material since the dogs are perfectly healthy and well cared for. 

I don't say that because they are a member. I say it because I've been following her program and passion for quite a while now. 

So what the dogs are not titled. They are AKC registered and health screened without any kind of behavioral issues. She's producing nice dogs for pet homes and working homes. 

To call her a BYB is rude.


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## RubyTuesday

Konatoshi, I agree. After looking through her site I wouldn't consider her a 'color' breeder. She appears to have nice GSD in a variety of colors, both traditionally accepted, & not accepted. IF the dogs are as nice as they sound the prices are amazing for those seeking an outstanding companion. Bottom line, (IMO) people are well advised to think for themselves & use board advice (including mine) very selectively.



> Are you so defensive because they're a member here? 4TheDawgies raises a legitimate point. If it was someone else people would tell people to run the other way bases on what the pedigree says about her dogs.


Admittedly breeder bashing is a sore point with me. I don't know the breeder or her dogs. I don't give a ratz patoot that she's a member here. I am disturbed that 'opinions' such as 4TheDawgies are so freely cast about with no direct experience of the dogs. All too often I've seen such 'opinions' overwhelm & bury information presented by people who have direct knowledge of, & experience with, a breeder in question. That's both rude & counter-productive. As for telling people to 'run the other way', can you site examples where *I* have done this? In fact you could find numerous instances where I've advised people to look at the actual dogs, communicate with those that have the dogs under discussion, determine what they need & want in their GSD & think for themselves. That is advisable for any breeder under consideration whether the breeder is a member of this board or not. Your suggestion that I treat a member of the board better is frankly laughable. You clearly don't know me.


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## bocron

Mrs.K said:


> So what the dogs are not titled. They are AKC registered and health screened without any kind of behavioral issues. She's producing nice dogs for pet homes and working homes.
> 
> To call her a BYB is rude.


So this brings up an interesting thought, what exactly makes a breeder a BYB? I don't consider AKC registration any great thing, it is a necessary evil and a bare minimum here in the US, but not of any real value other than proving that you can fill in some blanks and make a payment. I still have here somewhere the study where people successfully managed to AKC register a long dead dog, a goat and a guinea pig just to show they could. 

I haven't looked into the breeder that was mentioned, my statement is just a general one.


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## Jax08

Mrs.K said:


> Actually... I like Karen. She is a very nice person I've never really checked into all the pedigrees but I do know that a couple of her dogs do come from european and czech working lines. Her dogs are active in sport and working homes and her Ranch isn't exactly BYB material since the dogs are perfectly healthy and well cared for.
> 
> I don't say that because they are a member. I say it because I've been following her program and passion for quite a while now.
> 
> .


And several of her puppies are heading the east coast for Seeing Eye Dog Training with Fidelco.

Not sure what the beef with Crooked Creek is from the other poster? Seems almost personal.


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## Emoore

bocron said:


> So this brings up an interesting thought, what exactly makes a breeder a BYB? I don't consider AKC registration any great thing, it is a necessary evil and a bare minimum here in the US. . .


I agree about AKC registration. A necessary evil.

To me, what separates a good breeder from a poor one is that a good one knows their dogs, knows their bloodlines, knows what they are producing, and breeds for a goal. A poor breeder puts dog together with dog. Sometimes they put titled dog A with titled dog B; sometimes they put together what's convenient. But they don't really _know_ what they're producing. 

The thing is that when we're telling a newbie how to look for a breeder, we can't give them an x-ray machine to look into the breeder's skull. So we have proxies like titles. To me a title is a proxy-- it's one sign that you know your dogs and have good ones, but lack of titles doesn't mean you don't know your dogs or have poor ones. 

To me, though, there's really no proxy for health checks. An experienced dog person can perhaps evaluate temperament without going through the titling process, but you can't really evaluate for health without going through a veterinarian.


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## Mrs.K

bocron said:


> So this brings up an interesting thought, what exactly makes a breeder a BYB? I don't consider AKC registration any great thing, it is a necessary evil and a bare minimum here in the US, but not of any real value other than proving that you can fill in some blanks and make a payment. I still have here somewhere the study where people successfully managed to AKC register a long dead dog, a goat and a guinea pig just to show they could.
> 
> I haven't looked into the breeder that was mentioned, my statement is just a general one.



To me a BYB doesn't care about health, he doesn't treat his dogs humane, keeps them in poor conditions and breeds without any kind or form of purpose. 

Karens dogs have a purpose. They are in sport, they are working dogs, like Jax08 said, several are heading out to be seeing eye dogs, they are kept on a PROPERTY that many can only dream off and which literally is a German Shepherd Heaven, they are absolutely healthy, plus, from what I can see they are within standard as well. 

AKC might be a crap registration but it's the biggest registration in the US. Yeah your dogs can be AKC and BYB but Karens dogs are absolutely NOT what I personally would consider BYB! Even without any kind or form of title, she's got some darn nice dogs that do have a purpose. 

NOT what I consider a BYB.


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## 4TheDawgies

RubyTuesday said:


> 4TheDawgies, what do you personally know of her dogs? IF you don't have any solid info on the dogs themselves then your rather wild & unflattering conjectures aren't especially useful.
> 
> Those who have experience with her dogs seem to be very happy with them & with her. I don't know her. I don't know her dogs, but I'm considerably more impressed with what people say that have known & owned the dogs themselves.


You are right I know nothing of her dogs.. hence my questions on why people like her breeding program. I'm actually genuinely curious what people see that I don't. 

If its regarding the level of happiness regarding a purchased dog, then maybe my breeder who everyone called a BYB where I got Loki from isnt all that bad. 

They raise their dogs similarly. On a farm, playing in ponds and creeks and going for hikes. Heck they may even have similar pedigrees. 
Loki was even doing great as a schutzhund dog until he got injured. 

Ive seen him display an overall better temperament, drives, and confidence than I have of some dogs twice his price. 

I know his breeder is a BYB and don't care for what she does. I don't endorce or support what she does. But her dogs are well taken care of and happy if thats what we are going by. 

I just want to know what the difference between these breeders is that people like. Because people rip into quite a few breeders regularly with similar conditions and yet this one gets a completely opposite treatment. I want to know why, that is all


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## Mrs.K

The difference is that her dogs are present in many different venues. If I am not mistaken they are in Schutzhund, SAR, Agility, Obedience and selected by Fidelco, as well as health screened. 

That's just not what I think a BYB is.


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## lhczth

I sure do hate labels. No one can even agree on what these labels mean. 

In my world there are breeders I would buy from and breeders I wouldn't. I often see breeders recommended that I wouldn't ever consider, but my criteria might not be someone else's.

Ultimately the buyer has to decide if a breeder and litter will fit with their standards. Where the board members come in is to educate the prospective buyer about what to look for so hopefully their hearts don't overwhelm their brains. We can at times point them in the direction of breeders whose dogs we personally know or direct them away from breeders that we know are a total nightmare.


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## tmnamba

Regarding the above mentioned "kennel" after further investigation I am more than slightly concerned. I spoke on the phone with her and she not only was marking down a litter that showed signs of DM but also was selling them as if she were a used car salesman ( nothing against used car salesman ). She was very much persuading my wife to purchase one of these puppies at a reduced price. I would never purchase a puppy from her.

I have heard great things about crooked creek however. I don't see that they do much ScH work with their dogs or much work at all, however, I know that they have some talented offspring coming from their ranch. 

-Thom


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## Crookedcreekranch

The internet has become a wonderful tool for those seeking a german shepherd puppy. So much information available with the type of a keyboard. In the "old days" breeders had to rely on the phone and on reputation. Now every aspect of someone, their dogs and their breeding practices can be up for scrutiny to all. Is this a good thing? absolutely....can this be a bad thing? absolutely.

As Lisa said each individual needs to do their homework, research and take their time when choosing a new companion or working dog. In this country you are able to get dogs from kennels that specialize not only color, but size, temperament and working traits. We can find out health screenings, talk with other owners, so much is available. And avail yourself to all...

My husband and I are lifelong (yeah we're old owners of german shepherds. It is the only breed that we have. We have 10 or less dogs at any given time. This is my full time job, 365 days a year, 24 hours a day. I eat, sleep and breath dog! 

In an ideal world we'd all have plenty of money, staff and time to do absolutely everything with our dogs. But this is not the ideal world.....yet. Do I train my dogs and trial them? Not likely to happen until my children are gone and I'm not attending cross country meets, volleyball games, soccer games, and gymnastic meets. However I usually take my dogs along with me where ever I go ...as breed representatives, for socialization etc. 

I go to Schutzhund and OB training as often as I can but am not going to beat myself up over it while raising my children. Plans are in the works as well to have some training done by local trainers as I would really love to have some titles on my own dogs. I DO buy my own dogs from titled working lines as you can see in the pedigrees.

As others Have mentioned I DO have dogs from our breeding program in every training venue....Schutzhund competitors, AKC events, Guide Dog for the Blind, FEMA and locally certified SAR dogs and just great companion dogs. I know my dogs , I know their temperament and drives. I select puppies suited for each individual. This takes an enormous amount of time, weeks and hours of observation, testing, selecting. 

We are proud that 1 out of five of our owners returns for a second, third and even fourth puppy from us. This kind of confidence, loyalty and trust is something that is unequaled. Do working titled parents equate to the best dog? Not always but it takes someone with experience to know the difference, to know and guide a person to the right dog for them. 

As our breeding program moves forward and evolves we have begun with a new generation of females and outside studs. Through research, discussion and time we select the right dogs for our goals. What are our goals? AKC breed standard, continued OFA health screenings, hips/elbows, DM etc. And I will admit I'd like it to be a Pretty dog too For our purposes we are always seeking the dog that has it all...the temperament , the health, the working ability (whatever work that may be) and breed standard for size, color and temperament. I seek a dog that I love to be around and when the time is right and it is called upon for action , be it protection or obedience or playing with the kids and their friends, that the dog will do what is expected. 

Our motto has always been "Wonderful companions with the potential for so much more" . 

Why do so many people like me and our dogs? WE have built up a reputation over the years of being reputable , fair and knowledgable and of producing dogs that actually end up being the dog the person wanted for the job that they were purchaed.

I realize that many haven't "followed" us over the years. But I have been out there....on many forums, Facebook , etc. When you continue to see the type of things over and over again about a certain breeder you have to think...hey I think I need to delve a little deeper here. I welcome any questions. I take lots and lots and lots of photos...I hope that this gives people a feel for what our place is like, what our dogs are like and how we raise them. I have heard over and over "when I die I want to come back as one of your dogs" People can feel good about where their dog came from-not wish they hadn't bought from a 'back yard breeder' .

As to our foundation dogs with "sketchy" lineage...I have always been the first to admit ...yes when you look at the pedigree you'll think hhhmmmmmmmmmm??? nothing there...Knowing a dog, living with a dog, seeing what that dog is capable of be it tracking, protection or herding in the "real " world can be much more telling of a dog's character than following a pattern on a Schutzhund field....NO offense to sport dogs...just making a corrolation. If that same dog sat in a kennel all day of course you would have no knowledge what it is capable or nerves or temperament wise. Here in the real world we get to practice recall and herding instinct on deer, wildlife and cattle. WE get to practice agility on logs in the woods on the trail and in endurance in the creek. 

I would hope that anyone looking for their next puppy would do their research so that they are happy with their decision whether that puppy is from me or any of the wonderful breeders available.


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## Crookedcreekranch

One more thing ..........my website is hopelessly out of date and in need of revamping...it's hard on the eyes and difficult to read oh and thanks 4 for reminding me about that Animaroo thing on the home page. When that site first opened a few years ago I placed a couple ads on it...since found out like you that it screams puppymill...and never advertised again. Definitely that has to go. I rarely advertise at all anymore...most of our puppies are spoken for before birth and through word of mouth from owners.

Wish I had more time to "do it all" Hey wait what about all the volunteers I;ve had who said they would come help because they would love to visit....tech gurus? Yeah but you'd have to wade through about 30,000 photos to do the website and therein lies my problem....hahah OCD Obsessive Camera Disorder...but I have such great subject matter......


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## RubyTuesday

4TheDawgies, nobody s/b ripping into breeders, either directly or indirectly. To do so is a violation of board rules. I'm disappointed in those that flagrantly apply the rules to *some* breeders while disregarding them with others. Following the lead of these members wouldn't 'right any wrongs'. It would simply make my behavior indistinguishable from theirs. I've got enough faults of my own without adopting others.

I don't know Loki's breeder, hence I don't know if it's a breeder that would appeal to me or not. (I'm among those that think the term BYB is so over used as to be useless). Sam's & Djibouti's breeder is widely disparaged on this board. A LOT of the remarks have been waaay past the line of breeder bashing. For myself it doesn't matter. I got my GSDs to suit myself & nobody else. For the breeder it doesn't matter. She's successful & well regarded by almost everyone who's had her dogs. However, it's a shame if someone who would do very well with her GSDs is frightened off by bad information & scare tactics, especially those who are inexperienced.

There are good, bad & idifferent breeders among all the lines & types. At its best this board can help people understand what they're seeking in their GSD & learn to evaluate breeders for themselves.


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## JakodaCD OA

I'm glad Karen (CC) came on and posted.

I also like Karen, and I wouldn't hesitate to get a dog from her sight unseen, and let me tell ya, there are only a few on my short list of breeders I would do that with.

Sound/balanced/healthy, well socialized puppies are more important to me than titles. If you don't have that, you have nothing. 

As for the post about the woman marking down puppies because they were showing signs of DM? How old are these puppies?? My gosh puppies don't show signs of DM!!!
I'm thinking I'd be moving on from that, doesn't sound to educated to me

In the end TO EACH HIS OWN..I mentioned Karen because she's IN your area, I like her dogs, I like what the dogs she's producing are doing, I LIKE how she RAISES her puppies and I LIKE that she cares about every puppy she produces.

Just wanted to also Add Fidelco doesn't take dogs from just "anybody" and there are a few of her puppies in the program


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## tmnamba

I really appreciate everybodys opinion so far regarding breeders. I didn't mean to start any sort of war and I apologize if I have done so. I very much do respect all of your opinions and hold them all with the highest regard. 

I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your opinon and I appreciate that all of you have taken the time to share it. I like the fact that some of you are so passionate for and against a certain breeder, I feel like if you have an opinion formed you should stand by it. On that note I want to respect everyone here and don't want to break any forums rules what-so-ever.


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## tmnamba

JakodaCD OA said:


> As for the post about the woman marking down puppies because they were showing signs of DM? How old are these puppies?? My gosh puppies don't show signs of DM!!!
> I'm thinking I'd be moving on from that, doesn't sound to educated to me


Im confused by this a little, are you saying that puppies CANT show any signs of DM or puppies SHOULD NEVER show any signs of DM. To be honest when I feel like I shouldn't here the words DM leaving a breeders mouth unless to say their dogs are all tested for it.


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## Emoore

tmnamba said:


> Im confused by this a little, are you saying that puppies CANT show any signs of DM or puppies SHOULD NEVER show any signs of DM. To be honest when I feel like I shouldn't here the words DM leaving a breeders mouth unless to say their dogs are all tested for it.


DM is generally a disease that comes on in maturity. It is, as the name suggests, degenerative in that it happens over time. For a litter of young puppies to be showing signs would mean that they probably didn't have very long to live. It would also be a worrying wrinkle in the development of the disease, like when little kids started developing "adult-onset" diabetes. It could also mean that after the litter was born they found out that the sire and dam were carriers, not that the puppies are showing physical signs at this young age. Or it could mean the breeder has no idea what they're talking about.


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## kimberly.namba

Konotashi said:


> This.
> 
> I see more health screening done on her dogs than I have seen on any other breeder's site.
> 
> At least she's getting them health tested and doing something with them besides picking out the coolest colors and breeding them together like most unscrupulous 'color' breeders.





tmnamba said:


> Im confused by this a little, are you saying that puppies CANT show any signs of DM or puppies SHOULD NEVER show any signs of DM. To be honest when I feel like I shouldn't here the words DM leaving a breeders mouth unless to say their dogs are all tested for it.


 
Just to clarify for my husband, the breeder told me that based on the tests done on the parents of the litter, there are risks of DM. 

I too would like to say that we appreciate all advice given here. We are not professionals, we are not overly knowledgable on the breed, hence the reason my husband posted this thread to begin with. It is important for us to find a puppy that we feel confident about and know will be a great addition to our family so it is nice to have people who know what they are talking about to help us along the way. We are capable of making our own decision in the end, but the advice is well received and greatly appreciated.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Emoore's assessment.

kimberly, sounds like they DM tested the parents "after" the fact I would ask them what the breeding pair tested out at if your really interested in going with them and then research what those results could mean for the puppies. 

So sad tho, to think a whole litter of puppies who's life have just begun could become terrible heartache for future owners


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## Mrs.K

While I don't like that they charge different prices. Since they do that much healthtesting with their dogs, I think it might have been an honest mistake and what I like is that the breeder has been absolutely honest on the phone and said that the chance is there. So they might very well be very reputable. 

If they were BYB's or not reputable, they would have swept it under the rug.


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## codmaster

One thing that i probably missed in the long thread - the breeder said that she doesn't do any formal training/trialing at all of her dogs, I think!

But then goes on to mention all of the things that she does with her dogs and the enormous amounts of time she spends doing them - little confusing!


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## spiritsmom

I actually like the dogs at Kerstone and in years past have contemplated getting a puppy from her, just haven't. She does more testing than many breeders and spends a ton of time with her puppies. With the older puppies I think the sire/dam tested either as carriers or at risk for the DM gene. I can't remember which it was. So she bred two dogs that are either carriers or at risk - how many other breeders do the same thing unknowingly simply because they don't even test for the gene. You could have top breeders mating at risk dogs or carriers together and not even know it. At least Alicia (Kerstone) is honest about it and up front with her puppy buyers. The biggest reason why I would buy from her is that she appears to produce puppies with outstanding temperaments. I follow her on Facebook and there are always updates from happy owners and the things they have accomplished with their dogs. Many may not agree with her breeding program, but I know if I am ever to get a white long coat it will be either from her or Surefire. She health tests more than many and breeds for a well rounded dog with a good temperament - likely focusing on the pet market. That means alot to most pet puppy buyers and why so many of them are happy with her. I get the feeling that she is very supportive of her puppy buyers and happy to stay in touch long after the sale. That speaks volumes to me - bybs are not like that.


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## Whiteshepherds

This isn't an endorsement for the breeder, everyone has to figure out who they want to work with on their own, but I think this needs to be put into context. 

As of December 2011, the OFA database lists 102750 reports for hips in the GSD breed.
There are 1641 reports for DM, again in the GSD breed.

I know the test is relatively new and from the numbers, it doesn't seem to be something that's widely done yet. 

Only the breeder can answer the question about why the dogs were tested after the fact. Maybe there was no reason to believe there would be a problem, maybe she's just started doing this test...who knows...

If people are going to find fault with this breeder I don't think it should be based on health testing. If anything she's doing what a lot of breeders AREN'T doing at this point. She just did it a little too late in this case but again, she's not hiding it. 

I wouldn't buy one of the pups with this knowledge, but I wouldn't judge her entire breeding program on this incident either. I doubt the breeding would have taken place if the breeder had known this beforehand. It makes no sense to do all that testing and then ignore the results.

What's worse...a breeder who tests and is honest about the results, or a breeder who doesn't do the test at all??


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## codmaster

spiritsmom said:


> I actually like the dogs at Kerstone and in years past have contemplated getting a puppy from her, just haven't. She does more testing than many breeders and spends a ton of time with her puppies. With the older puppies I think the sire/dam tested either as carriers or at risk for the DM gene. I can't remember which it was. So she bred two dogs that are either carriers or at risk - how many other breeders do the same thing unknowingly simply because they don't even test for the gene. You could have top breeders mating at risk dogs or carriers together and not even know it. At least Alicia (Kerstone) is honest about it and up front with her puppy buyers. The biggest reason why I would buy from her is that she appears to produce puppies with outstanding temperaments. I follow her on Facebook and there are always updates from happy owners and the things they have accomplished with their dogs. Many may not agree with her breeding program, but I know if I am ever to get a white long coat it will be either from her or Surefire. She health tests more than many and breeds for a well rounded dog with a good temperament - likely focusing on the pet market. That means alot to most pet puppy buyers and why so many of them are happy with her. I get the feeling that she is very supportive of her puppy buyers and happy to stay in touch long after the sale. That speaks volumes to me - bybs are not like that.


Why would anyone test for a genetic carried disease if you are going to breed the dog(s) anyway?

One thing to breed a dog if you don't know it is a carrier of a dreaded disease; quite another to breed a dog that you KNOW is a carrier in my opinion.

I was the victim of a dog who had DM and had to be PTS eventually from it's devastating effects!


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## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> This isn't an endorsement for the breeder, everyone has to figure out who they want to work with on their own, but I think this needs to be put into context.
> 
> As of December 2011, the OFA database lists 102750 reports for hips in the GSD breed.
> There are 1641 reports for DM, again in the GSD breed.
> 
> I know the test is relatively new and from the numbers, it doesn't seem to be something that's widely done yet.
> 
> Only the breeder can answer the question about why the dogs were tested after the fact. Maybe there was no reason to believe there would be a problem, maybe she's just started doing this test...who knows...
> 
> If people are going to find fault with this breeder I don't think it should be based on health testing. If anything she's doing what a lot of breeders AREN'T doing at this point. She just did it a little too late in this case but again, she's not hiding it.
> 
> I wouldn't buy one of the pups with this knowledge, but I wouldn't judge her entire breeding program on this incident either. I doubt the breeding would have taken place if the breeder had known this beforehand. It makes no sense to do all that testing and then ignore the results.
> 
> What's worse...a breeder who tests and is honest about the results, or a breeder who doesn't do the test at all??


:thumbup:


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## spiritsmom

You can breed a carrier dog to a clear dog. The test is just for the gene that could lead to DM- the ones that test at risk won't always get DM. It means just that, they are at risk of developing DM later in life. Doesn't mean they will for sure. I DM tested two of my girls and they are both clear. But even if one were to be a carrier I would just select a male that was tested and one that was tested clear. I personally would not breed 2 carriers or 2 at risk dogs to each other. 

She did the DM test after the puppies were here - maybe the litter was unplanned between those two dogs or she didn't get the test done in time - I have no idea. It is relatively new and she's been going through all of her dogs and getting them all tested. And the puppies in that litter might never develop DM - they just have a greater risk factor for it. She could have easily hidden the test status of the sire and dam and said nothing. I am just guessing at why the dogs were tested after the breeding - someone would have to question her directly since I am merely speculating. My MIL has a dog with DM, he is in a wheelchair now at this point and I also have had a GSD with DM so I have experience with that disease process.


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## RubyTuesday

> kimberly, sounds like they DM tested the parents "after" the fact I would ask them what the breeding pair tested out at if your really interested in going with them and then research what those results could mean for the puppies.


Agreed. Further, IMO, breeders should never 'push' to sell puppies. When breeders push me to make a deposit or quickly commit to a dog or pup it tells me to look further.

I'm very curious as to whether there's a 'true carrier' of DM. I'd love to see a detailed study comparing a large # of dogs that test clear (Norman/Normal) vs carrier (Normal/DM+) vs positive for DM (DM+/DM+). 

I suspect the so called carriers are also affected but to a lesser extent & probably presenting later in life. In so many disorders the so called carrier is affected relative to the non-carrier but much less so than the patient that is homozygous for the afflicting allele. Some examples include sickle cell disease, lipid disorders, hemophilias. I would love Love LOVE to see this studied more extensively with DM. This is not intended as a slur on this breeder or any other. As noted, many breeders don't even test for it. Additionally, life gets increasingly risky with age. IF a DM carrier is at risk of a later presenting, milder form of the disease, that risk might be acceptable when assessing the overall picture. None of us is genetically 'perfect'. This is true of dogs as well as humans.


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## RubyTuesday

Michelle, you raise some excellent points. IF I was interested in one of those pups I'd be most interested in assessing the health & longevity of the extended family. Personally, I think this is always wise regardless of how many tests & clearances are done. GSD have many heath problems for which there are no tests, no magic clearances. The tests are, IMO, no substitute for a rigorous evaluation of overall health & soundness.


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## arycrest

RubyTuesday said:


> ...
> I'm very curious as to whether there's a 'true carrier' of DM. I'd love to see a detailed study comparing a large # of dogs that test clear (Norman/Normal) vs carrier (Normal/DM+) vs positive for DM (DM+/DM+).
> ...
> I would love Love LOVE to see this studied more extensively with DM. This is not intended as a slur on this breeder or any other. As noted, many breeders don't even test for it. Additionally, life gets increasingly risky with age. IF a DM carrier is at risk of a later presenting, milder form of the disease, that risk might be acceptable when assessing the overall picture. None of us is genetically 'perfect'. This is true of dogs as well as humans.


I agree! DM is such a difficult problem to diagnose under the best of circumstances and I don't think there's been enough research done to determine much of anything except that the gene may have been identified. In fact there's a lot of disagreement about the type of testing being done, if the DM GSDs get is even related to the type found in other breeds. I wish Marjorie Z could share her opinion on this subject!


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## Rei

It is one thing to health test _some _dogs fairly extensively, but whether or not - and how - a breeder uses that information and consistently utilizes such tests is, unfortunately, a separate matter. 

I have a personal friend who owns a Kerstone dog purchased for show/breeding, and know of several others who have worked with, or are still working with, Alicia. Additionally, I have been following her web page, her Facebook page, and her very regular updates through e-mail listings over the course of the years, and feel that I have a fairly good idea of the nature of her breeding program. I am sending a PM.


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## Konotashi

Rei, would you mind sending me a PM also?


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## kimberly.namba

When I spoke with Alicia, she stated that the reason she is discounting the litter is because it was in fact an accidental litter where the sire jumped the fence. She tested for DM and risk factors are shown.

To be honest with you all, this whole DM thing, wasn't our complete concern. After viewing her website and Facebook page it just seems as though she has a ton of dogs all breeding at once. That makes us a bit hesitant because I for one don't see how you could really be paying the right amount of attention to each individul puppy when you have SO many at one time. I am not going to bash the breeder because I do not personally know her, and I have only spoke with her on a couple of occasions. We are just saying it seems a bit odd for their to be a ton of litters at once. Again, we are not breeders ourselves, have never had a litter of puppies, and do not know what it actually takes to take care of them and work with them as the grow so maybe our concernes aren't validified. 

Like previously mentioned, we do have a deposit down on a puppy right now. We DID NOT do our research ahead of time and are now paying for it. This is why we are asking you guys, the ones with more knowledge than us, to help us out. The puppy we have on reserve is from a lady whose personal pets had a litter of puppies. She's not a breeder, she doesn't do any testing, she just has some puppies. The thing that has initially turned us away from her is the fact that the puppies mother died 5wks after they were born due to an accident and we were never told. We have read a lot of books (after putting the deposit down) and came to the realization that it is VERY important for a puppy to be around it's mother and littermates until at least 8wks of age. So, the mother died, AND I guess she has let all of the brothers and sisters go to their new homes already. 

Honestly, we don't know what to do. We are confused and in a big ole mess. Sorry if you professionals are looking at us like.. "wow, these people shouldn't even own a dog", but really, we just were a little late on educating ourselves and now we have to figure out the right thing to do. We appreciate your advice and hope that you can be helpful instead of being hurtful.


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## Emoore

Oh, they've already sold off the littermates? I would walk away. At 5 weeks they don't need their mom that much, but they really need littermates. Look at this as an opportunity to make a better, more informed decision.

In the words of Mr. Namba:


tmnamba said:


> Things I would look for BTW in a finding a good breeder is;
> 
> The number of litters they have, I don't want a breeder that has several litters at a time or more than a few a year. They just can't manage them properly, thats a kennel not a breeder.


This is not an indictment against Kerstone, but if the above is important to you guys, don't let your heart override your head.


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## kimberly.namba

Emoore said:


> Oh, they've already sold off the littermates? I would walk away. At 5 weeks they don't need their mom that much, but they really need littermates. Look at this as an opportunity to make a better, more informed decision.


Yeah, she told us that we could come and pick him up any time after the 8th, which is when he turned 6wks old. We wanted to wait as long as possible, but now it's like what is the point? He (the puppy) is at her house, with the dad, and one sister, who the lady chose to keep. He is 7wks old today, and we were going to pick him up this weekend but I think that is out the window now.

On a side note... since this is what this whole thread is about... I will just say that we have taken Kerstone Kennels off of our list of potential breeders to buy from. Thank you all for your advice. Now, maybe we should start a separate thread on what the heck we should do now! Lol.


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## lrandf

I don't have a dog from Kerstone but she has my dog's litter mate, Hero. Can't speak for her breeding practice but most of her breeding white sherpherds are from Regalwise. Ronda at Regalwise used to be very involved with dog genetic testing and UKC dog showings until she retired from breeding back in 2009. If you are looking for a white shepherd and a compansion dog, think Kerston is not a bad choice.


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## horsegirl

bocron said:


> So this brings up an interesting thought, what exactly makes a breeder a BYB? I don't consider AKC registration any great thing, it is a necessary evil and a bare minimum here in the US, but not of any real value other than proving that you can fill in some blanks and make a payment. I still have here somewhere the study where people successfully managed to AKC register a long dead dog, a goat and a guinea pig just to show they could.
> 
> I haven't looked into the breeder that was mentioned, my statement is just a general one.


I saw this on another forum ... food for thought
AKC is a registry. AKC is not the dog breeding police, and is not responsible for unethical people.


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## bocron

horsegirl said:


> I saw this on another forum ... food for thought
> AKC is a registry. AKC is not the dog breeding police, and is not responsible for unethical people.


My point exactly. I have seen many people new to the site saying they've found a breeder and basically the ONLY thing the breeder has done has AKC registered the pups. To me, saying the pups are AKC registered is like saying the pups have 4 legs, it's a given and should be the very barest minimum requirement.


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## spiritsmom

I think you should pass on the puppy you put the deposit down on. I'm assuming it is nonrefundable so consider it an expensive lesson learned I suppose and start looking for a real breeder. At least you came to this conclusion now instead of down the road after you've had the puppy. 

Side note - I was born at Whiteman AFB, how funny is that! Don't remember a thing about the area since my dad got transferred to Wright-Patt AFB in Dayton, Ohio a week after I was born. 

Now I know that Missouri is the puppy mill capital of the US so you will need to be more careful and thoroughly check out any breeder you find that is local. You can search online for breeders and then post on here or maybe make a separate post for recommendations in your area.

Hope you get the puppy of your dreams!


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## Samba

I grew up in Ohio as my father was civil service at Wright-Patt.

Currently, I live in MO. I would be really careful in MO when looking for a pup. Not that a breeder is rendered inappropriate by living here, but rather that there are many problems here and careful selection is warranted.


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## Emoore

spiritsmom said:


> I think you should pass on the puppy you put the deposit down on. I'm assuming it is nonrefundable so consider it an expensive lesson learned I suppose and start looking for a real breeder. At least you came to this conclusion now instead of down the road after you've had the puppy.


If it helps, you can join me and Wilma in the 'lost my deposit" club. I'm sure there are more of us. . .


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## kimberly.namba

spiritsmom said:


> Side note - I was born at Whiteman AFB, how funny is that! Don't remember a thing about the area since my dad got transferred to Wright-Patt AFB in Dayton, Ohio a week after I was born.


That is crazy! This place is a crap hole in the middle of no where! We hate it here! It's definitely nothing like Oregon, where we are from. Oh well, maybe some day we will get orders. We've heard that once you're at Whiteman you stay at Whiteman though... ugh. It's crazy that you were actually born here because now, the clinic doesn't even have an OB/GYN section... pretty much everything is referred off base.


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## kimberly.namba

Samba said:


> I grew up in Ohio as my father was civil service at Wright-Patt.
> 
> Currently, I live in MO. I would be really careful in MO when looking for a pup. Not that a breeder is rendered inappropriate by living here, but rather that there are many problems here and careful selection is warranted.


Definitely agree... this place is full of puppy mills. It grosses me out when I find a GS breeder and go to their website and it says things like.. "we specialize in breeding GSD, cocapoos, mini schnauzers, yorkies, laboradoodles....... etc". It's like, wow... you breed THAT many different breeds eh?


On a side note... what do we say to the lady we have a deposit down on? I feel bad because I know that she never had any bad intentions. Her dogs had puppies and she is selling them. She isn't really a "breeder" so I can't really blame her for not knowing all the rights and wrongs of breeding. It was really more our fault than hers you know? Not to mention, we are supposed to pick him up on Saturday. If I were her, and someone cancelled on me last minute... I'd be pissed.


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## Emoore

kimberly.namba said:


> On a side note... what do we say to the lady we have a deposit down on? I feel bad because I know that she never had any bad intentions. Her dogs had puppies and she is selling them. She isn't really a "breeder" so I can't really blame her for not knowing all the rights and wrongs of breeding. It was really more our fault than hers you know? Not to mention, we are supposed to pick him up on Saturday. If I were her, and someone cancelled on me last minute... I'd be pissed.


I hope she gets so mad and angry and disgusted that she never wants to go through this again so she spays her female.

Honestly, if this deal goes smoothly and she makes money and has only positive outcomes, there'll be another "accdental" litter in another 6 months.


Just call her and tell her you've decided not to buy her puppy and you understand you forfeit the deposit. If she asks for an explanation, say "Personal reasons."


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## bocron

I'd tell her we've changed our minds and of course she can keep the deposit. If she asks why I'd be honest, but not mean, and tell her you've done some research on the breed and want to hedge your bets by getting a puppy who has a better chance genetically for a sound mind and a sound body! 
Or maybe it would be easier to just tell her it's a bad time .


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## kimberly.namba

Emoore said:


> I hope she gets so mad and angry and disgusted that she never wants to go through this again so she spays her female.



The mother of the litter died... so future breeding shouldn't be an issue.


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## Emoore

kimberly.namba said:


> The mother of the litter died... so future breeding shouldn't be an issue.


Oh my gosh I'm so sorry I forgot. :blush: I feel terrible now.


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## vom Eisenherz

I agree; be honest, but not mean. No need to be mean. 

I would tell the truth and also say you understand that you are forfeiting your deposit and you are very sorry for the inconvenience, but this is a lifelong commitment and you have had a change of heart. If she cares about the dogs, she won't be devastated; to me, the WORST thing is trying to make someone take a puppy that isn't 100% sure. 

As a breeder, if I get a hint that someone isn't totally committed, I pull the plug myself. I never want a puppy in anything less than the perfect home. JMO.


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## robinhuerta

Please don't be mean or sarcastic......there are those that really do have good intentions, without having the know how.
Mistakes DO happen......and no one should be made to feel humiliated.

I didn't read the entire thread.....just the last few posts.


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## GermanShepherds6800

I think you made a good decision. I have been watching ads for her adults many up for sale and an addition of great dane puppy now. I was wondering if she was moving to another breed or adding.


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## spiritsmom

kimberly.namba said:


> That is crazy! This place is a crap hole in the middle of no where! We hate it here! It's definitely nothing like Oregon, where we are from. Oh well, maybe some day we will get orders. We've heard that once you're at Whiteman you stay at Whiteman though... ugh. It's crazy that you were actually born here because now, the clinic doesn't even have an OB/GYN section... pretty much everything is referred off base.


Well it was 1977 that I was born there. I've seen photos of the little pink military housing place my parents were in - the address was 123 March Dr. Kinda hard to forget an easy address like that! I know my mom said she always went to Springfield to do anything.


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## kimberly.namba

spiritsmom said:


> Well it was 1977 that I was born there. I've seen photos of the little pink military housing place my parents were in - the address was 123 March Dr. Kinda hard to forget an easy address like that! I know my mom said she always went to Springfield to do anything.


Those houses are still there!!! I should go take a picture of your old house for you! They have done some remodeling but not much, they need to just tear those houses down. We usually go to Lees Summit or Independence. It's pretty annoying. We do have a super Walmart like ten minutes from us. Whoop whoop. Lol.


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## spiritsmom

How funny is that! I know my mom would get a kick out of seeing the old place - hope it isn't pink anymore!


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## Samba

Oh, yeah, and welcome to MO! The middle of nowhere! We moved here from Denver. A bit of a shock but now we have adapted a bit!


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## DaniTy

We purchased from Kerstone and never again. We are headed out right now but I will be back to elaborate as to why.


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## JakodaCD OA

just an FYI to the above poster, it's a thin line here when discussing breeders. You can certainly pm anyone with your experience and opinion, but breeder 'bashing' is not allowed


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## Freestep

Just curious... it is "bashing" to simply state the facts of a particular situation? For example, "I bought a pup from x breeder which turned out to have hip dysplasia. X breeder refused to honor their guarantee and told me to go suck an egg." 

I know the site doesn't want liability, but the truth is not actionable.


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## Castlemaid

Freestep said:


> Just curious... it is "bashing" to simply state the facts of a particular situation? For example, "I bought a pup from x breeder which turned out to have hip dysplasia. X breeder refused to honor their guarantee and told me to go suck an egg."
> 
> I know the site doesn't want liability, but the truth is not actionable.


Yes, that would be bashing, because we have no way of knowing if the stated scenario is indeed fact. We have only one side of the story, and the 'facts' may have been exaggerated, and other important issues may have been omitted on purpose to make the poster look better and/or the breeder look worse. 

We cannot say from our point of view which stories are dispassionate facts, and which ones are buyer/breeder disagreements. Buyer/breeder disagreements should not be hashed out on a public board, but need to be dealt with in private.


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## JakodaCD OA

to add to this, I think it's ok, and have seen posts before, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

Come on here, say I have a gsd who now has HD and the breeder is refusing to abide by guarantee... If you don't name the breeder, and obviously don't have a BIG SIGN in your signature say "XX von 'kennel name"...

As long as you don't name the breeder, and aren't throwing out there obvious signs of where the dog came from, that's ok.

You can certainly say "pm me if you want the name of the breeder".. Again, fine line


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## Deerskin & Tagg

I have been trying for almost two years to find a young adult GSD that I can train as my service dog. My last girl I lost last October to cancer, and despite all my efforts, I havent been able to find one that is within our tiny budget, or from a GSD rescue. When I saw an ad on the Kerstone site for one for $400, the dog looks pretty good, and I have started talking to her about buying him.

But I just now found this thread, and now I am afraid of getting a problem dog....we already have one that my husband got from a so called trainer of service dogs, who sent it out to us from the neighbouring state. But this dog had *no* obedience training, no CGC, nothing that was advertised on the trainer's site. The papers that came with the dog are from a long history of being in pounds for cat killing and fence jumping....we have no cats, but live in a rural town where they wander around. A service dog has to be bombproof, and this dog we got sees a leash and goes ape, so she is only good as a pet at home.

I had thought I had solved my problem with the finding of the dog from Kerstone, but reading all the negative comments on her dogs, I am afraid to go any further with getting one of her dogs. I badly need a good, steady GSD to train to help me with my balance, but we do not have thousands of dollars to buy from the good kennels. Finding this thread is devastating to me...I had thought I had finally found my dog. Now it sounds like its a bad idea to buy her dogs. Can anyone please help me find a GSD? The problem is that I have only $400 for it.


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## Emoore

Deerskin & Tagg said:


> I badly need a good, steady GSD to train to help me with my balance, ]


Any particular reason it has to be a German Shepherd? Lots of breeds are big and calm and quiet and steady and can help you with your balance. In fact, there are probably other breeds that would work better.


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## Debbieg

You may want to contact Becky at Gallant Hearts. She trains Guide and service Dogs and used mostly GSD's


Home Page

There are many breeders who breed stable strong nerved GSD's that would thrive as service dogs. Such a breeder should be able to choose the right dog from a litter for you.

Here is another possibility.

Service Dogs of Florida, Inc.


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## Deerskin & Tagg

To answer both posts at once....

- I am most familiar with GSDs, having trained them since 1969, though I have also worked with rough collies and greyhounds as service dogs. I've found GSDs to have what I need in a service dog. And in our area, its hard to get dogs that arent pit bull crosses, which makes it impossible to find a purebred one that doesnt have the looks of a pit. Despite the fact that pits can make great service dogs, nearly all the towns and cities have laws against owning them, or that make it almost impossible to own. A Rottwiler is my second choice, but despite two years of searching local rescues, pounds and such, i havent seen even one available...I guess they get snapped up soon as the ad comes out.

- as for going to a guide dog program, or service dog program, both are not possible for me, for several reasons. 1. i am close to, but not quite, legally blind, and no guide dog school will take anyone other than legally blind. 2. even if i were legally blind, there is no way, in my state, to learn the use of a white cane, which is required by all guide dog schools. Our state only trains people in the use of the cane if they are going to return to the workforce. Anyone else who is blind or low vision cannot get training in the use of a cane, how to read Braille, etc. And programs for service dogs will not take people who are low vision, as I am, 'for reasons of liability'. 

So, I, and many other disabled people have to train our own service dogs. Its perfectly legal, so long as the dog meets certain behaviour standards, is trained in proper behaviour in public, and has been trained to perform at least 3 tasks that mitigate at least one of the owner's disabilities. The training i can do...the problem is getting a dog. I cannot travel very far because of one of my problems, and my husband can only go places for me on the weekends. My last SD i lost last October, but she was retired for a year before that, due to her own illness, and i have been searching all this time to find a rescue that could handle the work, or a kennel that would sell me a young adult for a price we can afford. So far, no luck on either, so i've been housebound for a long time. When i saw the Kerstone ad for the young male, I thought my problem was solved...till i saw he is a jumper, and has had no training at all. Cant deal with another like this...so now I dont know what to do. to say im depressed, is an understatement...


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## Emoore

Deerskin & Tagg said:


> TThe training i can do...the problem is getting a dog. I cannot travel very far because of one of my problems, and my husband can only go places for me on the weekends. My last SD i lost last October, but she was retired for a year before that, due to her own illness, and i have been searching all this time to find a rescue that could handle the work, or a kennel that would sell me a young adult for a price we can afford. So far, no luck on either, so i've been housebound for a long time. When i saw the Kerstone ad for the young male, I thought my problem was solved...till i saw he is a jumper, and has had no training at all. Cant deal with another like this...so now I dont know what to do. to say im depressed, is an understatement...


How about Thor: Thor | Austin German Shepherd Dog Rescue

Or AJ:
AJ| Austin German Shepherd Dog Rescue


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## Deerskin & Tagg

those are fantastic dogs! especially Thor. he looks and sounds like a good one, but the other has a heavy coat..we already have two collies carpeting our floor with their heavy coats. grooming is a daily, but you can never really keep ahead of that! ^_^ 

but i have no way to go there to look at or get them. we live in Kansas, and even going to Kansas City would be a great problem. i cannot drive, and my husband is free only on the weekends, his work hours very long, so hes exhausted when he gets home. the problem is finding a dog within our driving distance. its a problem that i dont know any way to solve.


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## CelticGlory

Have you checked with some rescues or service dog organizations? They can probably steer you in the right direction.


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## Deerskin & Tagg

- as for going to a guide dog program, or service dog program, both are not possible for me, for several reasons. 1. i am close to, but not quite, legally blind, and no guide dog school will take anyone other than legally blind. 2. even if i were legally blind, there is no way, in my state, to learn the use of a white cane, which is required by all guide dog schools. Our state only trains people in the use of the cane if they are going to return to the workforce. Anyone else who is blind or low vision cannot get training in the use of a cane, how to read Braille, etc. And programs for service dogs will not take people who are low vision, as I am, 'for reasons of liability'.


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## Emoore

Deerskin & Tagg said:


> but i have no way to go there to look at or get them. we live in Kansas, and even going to Kansas City would be a great problem. i cannot drive, and my husband is free only on the weekends, his work hours very long, so hes exhausted when he gets home. the problem is finding a dog within our driving distance. its a problem that i dont know any way to solve.


I understand. Please forgive me because I'm not familiar with your situation, but since this is such an important problem to solve, and you've been without a service dog for a long while, do you think maybe you could line up a weekend to go see several dogs, maybe from 1 or 2 rescues, and he could take a 3- or 4- day weekend to drive you? Does your husband get vacation or sick time? I'm just thinking some of the AGSDR dogs might work for you since some of them go through a basic obedience training program.


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## jdc71

*watch out*

_ *** Post removed by MOD *** _


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## mkinttrim

I know this is an old thread but just wanted to follow up. My Jager came from Kerstone. He is very healthy, smart, friendly and is doing S&R work. When I bought him I just paid for the "pet" cost as I wasn't sure if I wanted to breed him. She said in 2 yrs if I wanted to breed him it would be an additional $600 which was fair to me. So after 2 yrs, with his intelligence and S&R work I wanted to breed him. 
To make a long story short she is apparently no longer in business. Since I don't have full breeding rights with the AKC I am screwed. If anyone knows of anyway to get around this I'd sure listen!


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## Kayos and Havoc

Why would you want to breed this dog? What makes him a standout in that he could be used to improve the breed?


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## WateryTart

mkinttrim said:


> I know this is an old thread but just wanted to follow up. My Jager came from Kerstone. He is very healthy, smart, friendly and is doing S&R work. When I bought him I just paid for the "pet" cost as I wasn't sure if I wanted to breed him. She said in 2 yrs if I wanted to breed him it would be an additional $600 which was fair to me. So after 2 yrs, with his intelligence and S&R work I wanted to breed him.
> To make a long story short she is apparently no longer in business. Since I don't have full breeding rights with the AKC I am screwed. If anyone knows of anyway to get around this I'd sure listen!


Oh that's interesting...

I looked at her website when I was looking for a breeder. (Old website, this was...a year and a half ago? Almost two?) It quickly became apparent to me that I could do better in terms of a good match for what I wanted, so I don't think I ever even reached out to her with questions. The distance from Minnesota was something I preferred not to deal with anyway.

I wonder why she got out of it. I'm curious!


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## NancyJ

mkinttrim said:


> I know this is an old thread but just wanted to follow up. My Jager came from Kerstone. He is very healthy, smart, friendly and is doing S&R work. When I bought him I just paid for the "pet" cost as I wasn't sure if I wanted to breed him. She said in 2 yrs if I wanted to breed him it would be an additional $600 which was fair to me. So after 2 yrs, with his intelligence and S&R work I wanted to breed him.
> To make a long story short she is apparently no longer in business. Since I don't have full breeding rights with the AKC I am screwed. If anyone knows of anyway to get around this I'd sure listen!


 
I went back and looked at some old posts. According to your posts, Jager had surgery for a Fragmented coronoid process (a form of elbow dysplasia). That makes him "not breeding material" no matter how nice he may be.

My apologies if I read that wrong.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...eeds-surgery-fragmented-coronoid-process.html


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## Ashley_M

WateryTart said:


> I wonder why she got out of it. I'm curious!


Same!


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## Kovic

Here is a breeder in MO: German Shepherd breeder Kansas City - Vertrauen German Shepherds


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