# How is this Pedigree?



## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

Interested in opinions from those on here who are savvy with West working lines.

I am thinking about a breeding from this male with one of my Czech or East German females. From some of the research I've been doing, it seems that combining some strong, solid West lines with Czech/DDR can create some VERY nice working dogs, which is what I hope to do.

any insight would be greatly appreciated!









http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/338923.html


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

*Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*










Sounds like a great dog...'only' a Sch1 if that makes a difference.


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## darylehret (Mar 19, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

I was interested in later getting a pup from this male myself, but I'm afraid the breeder took insult when I returned a pup from a different breeding after 30 days, and forfeit our relationship. For the expense that cost me, I wouldn't buy one sight unseen, or at least without someone's judgment you fully trust to make the evaluation for you. The stud seems nice, but I would be wary of this breeder's ability to evaluate a puppy for work.

Last night I was conversing with a trainer/breeder in Slovakia who would agree with you, as I do, exactly as you said, _"combining strong, solid West lines with Czech/DDR can create some VERY nice working dogs",_ particularly Fero lines, "especially with Yoschy", and mentioning the Tiekerhook kennel with respect, as he lamented the current direction the breed is going in his own country (though beware!.. even from these very same lines, due to poor selection).

It couldn't please me more to see this outcrossing philosophy take a stronger hold, but for stronger workingline breeding, and wish you success!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Chana is here in the states, but she was spayed after her last litter and sold.

Isco is a son of Chana and Vito. v. Waldwinkle.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Daryl, 

I appreciate your insight. It's good to hear a Slovak breeder confirm the same thoughts I've been having. We strive to primarily produce dog's for law enforcement, so I'm hoping to strengthen the likelihood of doing so by adding these lines. I would imagine you will be trying to do much of the same with your own Tiekerhook male, yes?









I've had the opportunity to meet Choi in person and he is an impressive dog. I have no concerns about pup selection, as they will be born right here in my home.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Britney,
I concur wholeheartedly that the Czech/West combination when researched well will produce some nice offspring. My contacy in the Czech republic has been saying for years that the Czech lines are getting too pigeonholed and need the infusion of West blood. i imported a puppy from him five years ago out of czech female and Gandalf v Oberhausen-Kreuz (BSP). Just make sure that you do your homework on things like hips and aggression and size. And when I say homework i really mean the staus of siblings and parents of both parents.....This is better indicator than certs on parents alone.....I know you know this so Good Luck!


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Quote:Last night I was conversing with a trainer/breeder in Slovakia who would agree with you, as I do, exactly as you said, "combining strong, solid West lines with Czech/DDR can create some VERY nice working dogs", particularly Fero lines, "especially with Yoschy", and mentioning the Tiekerhook kennel with respect,


Whilst I think it's a good idea to cross those west lines into czech, are czech breeders also crossing into lines that aren't the reason for the almost bottleneck in the west lines ? ie breeding into west lines that don't have mink/fero/fado/orry ect ? breeders will less likely be able to go to czech lines with them going to the same popular west dogs, if they are trying to avoid them.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Cliff,

Thanks! I really appreciate your input! I've actually been meaning to PM you about Picasso. Do you have him here in the states already? I am a HUGE fan of Frankie Anrebri and I didn't realize Picasso was a Frankie son.









Nelly, I'm learning more and more about the popular west lines every day, but I still don't know everything. What is wrong with the dogs you listed? I thought Fero and Mink were two of the top hip producers of all time?


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Originally Posted By: BritneyP .....Frankie Anrebri


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Tracy- I agree with you.










Actually, the more I've researched, I've come to find that my own dog, Jack, is a perfect example of the west/czech outcross. He is by Hoky Va Pe, who is by Tyson von der Schiffslache. He also has Fado v Karthago on his sire's side. His dam is Fidzi z Esagilu, who is out of Figa Cega, full littermate to Farug Cega, sire of Faro Policia.

This dog is my husband's dual purpose K9. He is the realest dog I have ever met. Outstanding prey drive, perfect, true aggression, and genetically full, crushing grips. He will work until he drops and would jump through fire to get the man. However, he is also extremely social and clear-headed. He has rock solid nerves and will let children crawl on him and poke at him without a care.

I aspire to repoduce dogs as close to him as possible in my breeding program and it seems as though this may be the way to do it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

I did a breeding of my DDR/Czech Schh3 female, Kyra, to a West German male, Xito Maineiche, and that litter produced very strong dogs. Two were SAR dogs, one became a K9 for the Vermont State Police. One male is SG, Schh2 and depending on owners family life, will get Schh3 come spring. I have a daughter, with AKC titles BH, AD, only not titled due to my personal life...I will be breeding her to either a Ufo son or a Czech dog shortly. 

I really like the balance in social aggression with stability and good prey/ball drive that this combination produced.

Lee


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Britney, I have Picasso with me, he is a really nice with great conformation(IMO), and tremendous temperament. Good moderate dog in all things, with gorgeous looks. will be away for next week but will get back to you when back.
as for whether West lines have or donot have Fero, Mink, Orry,etc. that is not as important at this junction because when you introduce the Czech blood you are diversifying on both sides. good for West dog and Good for Czech dog in terms of lines being too saturated. Brit I know you didn't bring this up but a previous poster did...smile!


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Quote:Nelly, I'm learning more and more about the popular west lines every day, but I still don't know everything. What is wrong with the dogs you listed? I thought Fero and Mink were two of the top hip producers of all time


Britney there is nothing wrong with those lines just that many west lines already go to them, for a future healthy diversity in the breed, breeders should be mindful of using other good lines that may not be as popular.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Cliff,

If you swing by club in the future, you can also see Isco.

We like the straight Czech/German pedigrees.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Quote: as for whether West lines have or donot have Fero, Mink, Orry,etc. that is not as important at this junction because when you introduce the Czech blood you are diversifying on both sides. good for West dog and Good for Czech dog in terms of lines being too saturated. Brit I know you didn't bring this up but a previous poster did...smile!


I'm sorry cliff I disagree, it is no good if both populations of czech and west all go to the same dogs. IMHO if czech are going to cross into west there should be some breedings without some of popular west lines and vice-versa- west breedings without some of the popular czech for future diversity.


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

I really appreciate everyone's input! I think this has been an interesting discussion!









Nelly, would you be able to cite specific examples of what type of cross you would be referring to? It seems to me at least, that it would be rather hard to cross a Czech dog from not-so-popular lines w/ a West dog from not-so-popular lines.

I guess a better question too then, would be what ARE the less popular czech and west german lines?


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## darylehret (Mar 19, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Or more specifically, what ARE the less popular lines that are ANY GOOD? There's a few sure, but let's not make them popular ;-) The truth is, you are likely to inadvertently be adding diversity no matter how true you stay to the over-popular lines. And, VERY genetically enriched when crossing from different regional populations.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Originally Posted By: Smithie86
> 
> We like the straight Czech/German pedigrees.


You mean like Enzo or do you mean you refer either straight Czech or straight German?


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Tracy,

All three. Straight German, straight Czech, and straight just Czech/German. 

Again, depends on the pedigrees or in some cases, just the dog. Have seen dogs that are awesome that are really nice on one side and little known on the other.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Quote:Nelly, would you be able to cite specific examples of what type of cross you would be referring to? It seems to me at least, that it would be rather hard to cross a Czech dog from not-so-popular lines w/ a West dog from not-so-popular lines.
> 
> I guess a better question too then, would be what ARE the less popular czech and west german lines?


a couple of examples of common czech bred to less common west is

Orry, with Grim Pohranicni straze(common czech) in his dam line but with dingo conneforde ( pike/bora grauen stern -less common west) in his sire line.

Orry pedigree 

another example is

C- litter Trpaslik

chachar's pedigree 

west on the sire line with these producing lines

Torro korbelbach, norbo marterstock, cim v.d mohnequelle,Drigon, asko joufne keyleff

dam line goes to grim.

It is not as common to find a west pedigree with the above producers without mink/fero. They are just one example, there are others but you just have to look around.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

I don't know if this helps but if i was lookign at west I'd look at the above lines I mentioned, but also dogs going back to

*karlo peko haus, peko haus lines
*Uran/Uwe kirschental
*Greg vd Zitadellenberg
*Marc vom Herkulesblick
*Bodo Lahnufer
*gary korbelbach, korbelbach lines
*Vico wolfendoebel

Some more modern dogs
*salztalblick dogs (recent one Paska who is mink/fero free)
*asko lutter
*haus sevens, Zunderland, Groot wezenland- these kennels have some dogs with pedigrees free of some common lines
*another option some of the dogs from the Maineiche kennel ?
*Some fasanerie lines
*ufo v Guy's hof
*olix karthago

and there are likely a few others that I have not heard of.

I don't know much about czech but some suggestions i'd look at are Titus, Cak pisecna boure, without grim ect, cordon an sat, Blek egidius, eron mat roz, Arys z Travnickova dvora. 

Your best to also do your own study/research on all the producing bloodlines in czech and west populations.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Daryl wrote


> Quote:Or more specifically, what ARE the less popular lines that are ANY GOOD? There's a few sure, but let's not make them popular ;-) The truth is, you are likely to inadvertently be adding diversity no matter how true you stay to the over-popular lines. And, VERY genetically enriched when crossing from different regional populations.


there are some lines which are not as common because they are not that good and some because either they never got the chance, didn't excel at sport but other work (police ect) & or no longer fit the mould for sport or for politcal reasons.

disagree, if i had a west female who is linebred/goes back to mink/fero and i don't want to double up on mink/fero so i choose the czech lines to breed into but say theoretically many of the czech lines also go back to these common west lines, how useful is that ?? yes that little bit of czech infusion would be good for diversity but you dont want to double on the common west again.


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## darylehret (Mar 19, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Nelly, about every dog you listed is what I would call rather popular, and czech lines with Mink or Fero being already present ARE the outcrossed lines that I mentioned to be wary of that may be the result of less stringent selection criteria. It's true, you can find many czech and slovak dogs with recent west german influence, from primarily certain lines, but I just personally don't perceive dogs with Nick, Ellute, Pike or whatever in their pedigree, as being "czech".

Nevertheless, there is no cause to worry for linebreeding on Fero with partial czech lines thrown in. Greater inbreeding coefficients have been proven successful already from ALL west linebreeding. Two rather distinct populations have resulted from geographical, ecological, and political causes, and some evolutionary divergence has resulted in the opportunity to reap some attractive benefits, but only so long as your selection criteria is properly calibrated.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Maybe not in the USA, but dogs without Mink and Fero aren't that unusual in Europe. 

I would not consider Pike to be uncommon, either.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Try finding something without Mink, Fero or Lord LOL!

I am looking at Czech dogs for my no Mink-Fero but 3x Lord female...1/2 WGerman and DDR/Czech on bottom....I'd do Pike for sure, but only without Mink or Fero...or Ufo....

Lee


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Originally Posted By: DarylEhretNelly, about every dog you listed is what I would call rather popular, and czech lines with Mink or Fero being already present ARE the outcrossed lines that I mentioned to be wary of that may be the result of less stringent selection criteria. It's true, you can find many czech and slovak dogs with recent west german influence, from primarily certain lines, *but I just personally don't perceive dogs with Nick, Ellute, Pike or whatever in their pedigree, as being "czech".
> *
> Nevertheless, there is no cause to worry for linebreeding on Fero with partial czech lines thrown in. Greater inbreeding coefficients have been proven successful already from ALL west linebreeding. Two rather distinct populations have resulted from geographical, ecological, and political causes, and some evolutionary divergence has resulted in the opportunity to reap some attractive benefits, but only so long as your selection criteria is properly calibrated.


I agree w/ everything Daryl's said here, especially the bold/italicized. 

Lee, you should check out Andy Maly Vah for Kyra.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Actually - it is Csabre - Kyra's daughter I am looking at males for....and Andy is on the short list - 2 of her littermates are/were SAR dogs (one is K9 for Vermont State Police now) and the other male I am looking at is an Ufo son - 

Lee


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Originally Posted By: BritneyP
> 
> Andy Maly Vah


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Originally Posted By: BlackGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: BritneyP
> ...


Agree.









We're going to be breeding our mainly West German female, Della, (Pike granddaughter with some Lord on the bottom side) to Andy probably sometime next week. He's a fantastic dog and we're very excited to see how these pups turn out.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild.......we're very excited to see how these pups turn out.


Me too!!!


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## BritneyP (Oct 26, 2006)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Me three!!!


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*



> Quote:Nelly, about every dog you listed is what I would call rather popular, and czech lines with Mink or Fero being already present ARE the outcrossed lines that I mentioned to be wary of that may be the result of less stringent selection criteria.


The lines I mentioned are uncommon without mink/fero.



> Quote:but I just personally don't perceive dogs with Nick, Ellute, Pike or whatever in their pedigree, as being "czech".


neither would I but look at some of the Jinopo stud dogs, a few of them go back to fero, people go buy czech dogs or use their studs and their choices if they want to avoid fero are already limited. Just one example but as I said earlier if czech breeders don't cross into the common lines sometimes, they may be hard to avoid because i think the outcrossing into west will continue.



> Quote:Nevertheless, there is no cause to worry for linebreeding on Fero with partial czech lines thrown in. Greater inbreeding coefficients have been proven successful already from ALL west linebreeding


IMO there is if you want to avoid those lines.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Chris you will like what Andy Maly Vah will bring to the table as we bred to him with our Faro Policia daughter last April and I was so impressed with what the two produced that I held back 2 females to evaluate until they are 1 year old and then pick which one I want to keep. If you need anymore info feel free to PM me.


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

I have an 8 month old Choi granddaughter and she has rock solid nerves and I was immediately drawn to her when I saw her at 4 1/2 months of age.


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## nanu (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

this is an old thread but came to my attention because well, I own this dog. The "breeder" is a long standing high end police dog handler and trainer. He takes real rescues out of dog pounds and gives them a life. Not an easy task to take a rescue into a well working dual purpose patrol dog, anyone here ever go on the street with one? Next, Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft is a Sch 1 as we purchased this dog before he was titled and goal was to stay in Germany as he was slated as Bundesseiger material especially with his mother having competed, coming in 8th place and ranked at that time as the top bred bitch in Germany. Reference any of the bigger breeders in Germany please. My business partner became seriously ill to the point he is now completely disabled. He wanted to see and work Choi while he could and so Choi came home. Choi is not standing to the general public. He produces a high end to the point I could say National level Sch dog (by the way, I have had 2 dogs in USA nationals in the distant past) And he is more suitable to produce a real police working dog. As far as the pedigree discussion here and breeding this to that, it is all very interesting and I will leave it at that. 
I always offer assistance to those who breed and help them select dogs that work for them. I am batting 100%. Having traveled and purchased dogs from East Europe for over 18 years and seen literally all these dogs talked about, I think I can speak for their work. I hope these conversations can stay informative and objective along with being accurate. I am sure that is the intention of many. Now I hope everyone goes out and enjoys their dog today. 

thank you for your time

Nancy Rhynard
http://www.westwoodkennels.com


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

“Next, Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft is a Sch 1 as we purchased this dog before he was titled and goal was to stay in Germany as he was slated as Bundesseiger material especially with his mother having competed, coming in 8th place and ranked at that time as the top bred bitch in Germany. Reference any of the bigger breeders in Germany please. My business partner became seriously ill to the point he is now completely disabled. He wanted to see and work Choi while he could and so Choi came home. Choi is not standing to the general public. He produces a high end to the point I could say National level Sch dog (by the way, I have had 2 dogs in USA nationals in the distant past) And he is more suitable to produce a real police working dog. As far as the pedigree discussion here and breeding this to that, it is all very interesting and I will leave it at that. “

We have a Choi nephew (from Chana): Isco SCH3, V KK1. He is a Vito son, so he has Tom on the top and Olex on the bottom, which has been a favored working combination. Gabor has only been working him 8 weeks, prior to that no training for a year – used for breeding in Germany and Spain.

Extremely strong dog, as validated by multiple National level helpers (both also K9 instructors and handlers). Very serious, strong aggression, full bites (swallowing the sleeve) and hitting hard on all bites. 


Nancy,
Question. Why isn’t Choi at stud to outside females?


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## nanu (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

thanks for asking Sue. He has had two litters from a female whom I know well what she contributes. All the offspring are solid nerve, hard, super bite. Choi is very handler attentive ( I will attribute good training to keep this dog positive) but he has extreme defense combined with clear headedness that we see in few dogs. It is his exceptional defense that tells me he should not be bred for pet homes. I would term him socially aggressive. It is my responsibility to see that dogs go into the right hands. You see with your Choi nephew, I see the same in the Choi offspring too. Serious, strong aggression, as full bites as one can have and full body hits even when these "pups" were 8 months old and on the puppy sleeve. The natural ability with the dog is great but for a novice handler because that aggression will come. And so not bred to the general public. If a breeder produces a patrol dog (not just scent work) or higher sport competitors then he is available. There are still sport competitors that prefer a dog who has real defense that is natural, not from heavy training. 
Please keep me informed about your nephew. Your cross is a good one! We have a Norbo Ben Ju/Urxi female bred to him now. We will be breeding a Tom daughter to him after that. 
Crooked Creek Ranch has a granddaughter who has just enough showline in her (from a very old lines) and that entire litter has amazingly solid nerves. Something we all strive for. Some of those are doing scent work, some went for sport. This showline addition removed the social aggression. Another topic.
There is a seminar at Mark Scarberry's club early May where handler will take Choi for a little fun and exercise. 

Nancy Rhynard
http://www.westwoodkennels.com


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Nancy,

Will email you off line.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Nancy, is Choi going to be there for all three days?


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## nanu (Mar 5, 2009)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

I hope Choi is going to be there 3 day and I can forward you the handler's info if you want to email me privately. I try not to intrude on others. I am 3 hours away from this with a business that has me on calls so I'm not much help! Is Bill the DPO judge still in your group or do I have that confused. (it was a long time ago he evaluated Gary Grenzganger) 

thanks for your interest! l think this will be a nice seminar to attend. Seems like a pretty good lineup with informaton.

Nancy Rhynard
http://www.westwoodkennels.com


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*Re: Choi von der wilden Nachbarschaft??*

Bill moved to AZ in 2006. 

I'll send you a PM. 

Thanks.


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