# Inexpensive Options?



## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

My plan right now is to save enough to purchase a pup from a breeder in a year (plus be sure there is enough for medical, equiptment, etc), but I am curious about other options as well.

If one does not have $1200-$1500 for a puppy, can one still get one from a reliable breeder? 

I know rescue is an option, however, I would prefer a puppy from a breeder because:
1) I think I'd be more likely to get a healthy pup. A rescue won't have OFA hips/elbows and I won't know anything about the health of the parents.
2) I worry about the temperament of a rescue because I don't know the temperament of the parents AND do not know what kind of trauma or abuse the dog has suffered.
That said, if I did not have small children around, I'd probably consider a rescue. 

Besides rescue, what are other options for getting a really good pup but not spending $1200+?


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## wakefield622 (Aug 17, 2009)

I am not one of the "more experienced" on here. But, my husband & I have small children and we bought from a breeder. They did not have the papers so we got Mandy for $350. We were planning on spending $1,200-$1,500 but really would of had to save for a lonng time! We met both the parents and loved their temperaments. I would say keep your eyes opened and if you don't mind not having papers and want a nice family dog then that may be a way to go.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

What are your plans for a pup? Would you consider adding a retired breeding dog instead of a pup? This would give you the benefits of a well bred dog (assuming you get a retired dog from a breeder who is reputable); you would KNOW the health and temperament and you would not have to worry about puppy teeth with children.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: MommyJennI am not one of the "more experienced" on here. But, my husband & I have small children and we bought from a breeder. They did not have the papers so we got Mandy for $350. We were planning on spending $1,200-$1,500 but really would of had to save for a lonng time! We met both the parents and loved their temperaments. I would say keep your eyes opened and if you don't mind not having papers and want a nice family dog then that may be a way to go.


Most responsible breeders would not be selling pups for $300. By seeing the parents on their own home (assumption on my part) is not necessarily seeing their true temperament. Technically anyone who has dog A and breeds to dog B and has a litter of puppies is a "breeder", however, there is a LOT more that goes into being a responsible breeder.


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## jaggirl47 (Jul 18, 2009)

Just please, please, please do not go to a "breeder" selling a PB GSD for little money. That's what I did and unknowing at the time supported a BYB and ended up with a dog with health issues his entire life. Granted, I wouldn't trade my Zappa for the world, but if I had known better and could do it all again, I would have just paid the $1200-$1500. It would have been way cheaper.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

When I decided I wanted a puppy, I put $100 a month away for him. I found a breeder with an upcoming breeding that was perfect for me sooner than I expected, so really had to stash whatever I could away + the crate, and I bought toys ahead of time. 
I did get a used small crate for $25 so that helped. The medical was easy to pay, as it was in 2-4 week spaces for his vaccinations, so I could save ahead. I paid extra to space his rabies from his other vax, as I didn't want those given together.
I had the pups prelims [email protected] months and saved for that ahead of time, too. You don't need everything(moneywise) upfront. 

I don't think you will find a healthy well bred pup from a reputable breeder for less than $1200. It costs $$ to have the proper program in place for getting #1) in your post.

If you go with a good rescue, you will get a dog that will be placed/matched very carefully and most have gone thru temperament testing, and the vetting is taken care of as well. 

I know of a "breeder" who has Onyx's littermate-she is on her 2nd litter w/ her and has 11 pups, no OFA or papers. She is selling these pups for $300-400 and they are 9 weeks old...I hope to God they don't end up in a shelter or rescue. 
They[/ulr] are working/Czech sire and American mixed up bag dam.
They are beautiful, bi-colors and very dark sables, two blacks as well. 
I bet you'd pass on this litter, even though the price is right. I know I would, as an informed GSD owner.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if your planning on a year, definately start stoking away atleast 100 a month, figure that's 25 a week, less than 5 a day))

I was lucky with Masi, she wasn't something I had planned a long time in advance, but at the time, I was deluged with work so was bringing in about 600 a week,,most of that went into my "masi purchase fund" 

My aussie who was 1000 and that was 10 years ago) was something I had much more time to save for. That breeder also gave 'rebates' for titles, so Jynx kinda paid for herself over time))

Two of my dogs were rescues (the best gsd I ever had) and my other gsd's were dogs I had planned for awhile..

Don't discount rescue, I think there are sooo many reputable rescues out there. An older dog, a year or so, you are pretty set on temperament, and usually have been thoroughly vet checked.

Puppies no matter where they come from are a crap shoot , you could spend thousands, and end up with physical /behavioral problems just like with any breed. 

I have been very lucky with all my dogs past and present, have never had hip/elbow problems nor any major health problems.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

oops and just wanted to add, there are no inexpensive options when it comes to buying and taking care of a dog)


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

I've seen a few kennels that sell on limited registration for under $1000. 

There's a kennel not too far from me that does all the health checks on their dogs, temperament tests all pups before sending them to new homes, personally screens all buyers, ect,etc... they sell for around $800 on LR.

The breeders are personal protection trainers, that also train dogs for SAR, tracking, and a variety of other fields. The only real catch is that none of the dogs are titled... but many people are up in the air on that one anyway, as many fine dogs can be produced through untitled parents, just as many duds can be produced from champions.

I think if you look hard enough, you can find a few gem breeders who sell for a reasonable price.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Washington German Shepherd Rescue is very reputable and takes an extreme care matching dogs and homes. http://www.washingtongsd.org/adopt.html . 

PS Having a dog is very expensive, and the puppy initial purchase cost is a drop in a bucket. 

PPS I would call breeders and ask for older pups or pups that were returned, or retired females as was noted above.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

You're really putting an "inexpensive" breeder before a rescue? 

The great thing about rescue is that you DO know what you're getting (unless of course, it's a little puppy...then I think it can be an unknown no matter what...even the best breeders have flooks). A good rescue puts the dogs through the ringer to find out about their temperment.

And if you're worried about your small children, a puppy is the last thing I'd get...can you say GSD "shark" phase?!

I wish someone would do a study on comparing the sucess rates of reputable rescues verses breeders.....


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Maybe if you put your location, someone here could point you in the direction of a breeder who might have decent pups in the 800-1000 range.

As it was said before, don't try to get a bargain dog. What you save on the front end, you'll pay out on the back end in health and behavior costs.

On the subject of rescues, my Morgan was pulled from a shelter as pup - she was a stray so nobody knew so much as her name. Best dog I've ever had - health and temperament wise she's been perfect for 8 years. Kind with my children, her feelings get hurt if she sees a toddler out walking and the child does want to hug her. She cost me $5.

Course, I knew a bit about GSDs and a bit about shelter pulls. I also had someone older, wiser and trusted standing right next to me when I evaluated her.

So don't rule out rescue. If you go to a club, you might find just the right person who could help you pick a great rescue.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i got several of my gsd's from BYB's in my younger years, and honestly, they were the best i ever had. when i started going to more reputable topline breeders i started getting temperment issues.....sorry.but this is how its been for me...........not that its gonna work that way with everyone......but it did for me......

years ago i paid no more than 300.00 for the best dogs i've ever had............they were trustworthy are people, could take them anywhere and not have to worry, nothing bothered them,,,,etc.etc.....very stable family pets....not that i condone BYB breeding with people breeding anything with anything, but if the parents are solid stable.......why not.....


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## wakefield622 (Aug 17, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Amaruq
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MommyJennI am not one of the "more experienced" on here. But, my husband & I have small children and we bought from a breeder. They did not have the papers so we got Mandy for $350. We were planning on spending $1,200-$1,500 but really would of had to save for a lonng time! We met both the parents and loved their temperaments. I would say keep your eyes opened and if you don't mind not having papers and want a nice family dog then that may be a way to go.
> ...


A year and a half ago we purchased an Australian Shepherd and spent almost $1,200 and it ended up being an aggressive dog that we had to give back to breeder, we were not offered another puppy or a refund of any kind. So, you can understand why this time I'd be more cautious to put out that much money again. 

Again, charging up the wazoo for a puppy does not mean they are a qualified...good breeder either. We spent much time with the breeders as well as the mother & father. We loved all of them. Mandy has a wonderful temperament. They have had 3 or 4 litters and from what we could see of our daily visits took very good care of the pups and we have been happy with our experience. I am not saying every breeder is like that. But, I can't say I was disappointed with anything. We wanted a pet puppy and that's what we got and we couldn't be any happier.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Debbie, it's original poster's third attempt to get a sound GSD...


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## rjvamp (Aug 23, 2008)

You may want to check animal shelters as some very nice looking GSD's have appeared there due to the economy and were probably bought from respectable breeders at full price, but could use a good home now. They may also have the papers as well when owner surrendered.

Saving up is a great idea too. 

In the end, if you find a pup that you and he or she gets along well, then that is probably the most important 

I remember getting Angeles - he wasn't even supposed to be there, but the lady that reserved him had to have surgery so she decided to get another pup later. He came right up to me and was so playful, the biggest of the lot there and the most beautiful Sable I ever saw (okay - I'm probably partial). I was not 100% sold on the idea that I was leaving with a pup that day....about 90% maybe???? LOL I ended up saying - I want him, here is the money! I had already inquired of the parental background and all before going to the breeder. I had seen other pups that same weekend and I just didn't click with them (they were from another breeder). Beautiful dogs, but just no the one meant for me.

So you could end up with the right one for you from a shelter, from a BYB or a more reputable breeder.

I wish you the best in your plans. It's so much fun when you bring that pup home for the first day! Advice: put the pup in a crate in your car - he or she just might get sick all over you and the car! LOL What a smell and mess and LONG ONE HOUR Drive home!


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## xwildman138x (Jan 11, 2008)

You know I thought the same thing about getting a shep. Get a puppy with papers and parents with certifications this way I know how my pup will turn out. A rescue is going to have health problems and joint problems. Now my thought process is....The puppy stage was a nightmare and not something I would go through again. Plus a rescue shep is already grown and at that point if the problems were because of a puppy mill they would be evident, right? If I had to do over because I just have my dogs for companionship not shows or breeding or anything, I would do a rescue. Why pay when theres a life that you could save.


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

I would also recommend going the rescue route.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I really appreciate all the insights, experience and information you all are sharing. I am trying very hard to educate myself so that when I am ready for my GSD, I am a good, responsible owner. So thank you for helping me learn about my options.

I live in Washington state, BTW.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I don't know how old your kids are. In your into you said they were almost grown? Why not get a rescue that is a little older. If you get one from a reputable rescue then they can help match you up with one that has a temperment that you want.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Michelle,

I have an adult son, 3 teens in the house, and a four-year-old daughter. I am not concerned about the older ones; more for the preschooler and her friends that come over, and any potential grandchildren in 5 years or so









My kids are all very good with animals. I just want to be sureto start with a dog whose temperament is stable.

I will likely take a harder look at rescues as time goes by to get a better feel for what kinds of dogs are available, while I continue to save in case I end up buying a pup. I'll explore all options.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wouldn't be concerned with an adult dog at those ages. think of it this way. by the time you have grandchildren your puppy will have already grown up anyways.









Either way...Socialization is the key. Take your puppy/dog everywhere you can so he/she is around of alot of different people and experiences.

Jax is never around small children but when she does see one she instinctly knows to tone it down. She sits down and gently sticks out her neck to give them a kiss.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Also, just wanted to note that this post was not made out of putting money above getting the "right" pup. It was actually triggered by a post I saw somewhere on this board, picture section I think, of a beautiful pup with a comment that "you don't need to spend $1500 to get a great dog." Got me thinking. So I thought I'd ask.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Honestly, I would rather have a young adult dog from a rescue than a puppy from a BYB. 

An adult you can see the temperament you are getting, and you can have the hips and elbows done (at your expense) before committing. Some really wonderful animals end up in rescue. Don't rule that out.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Here is my current dog: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1284959

I adopted him two years ago from a foster home. He is perfect with children, adults and other animals. I had very specific requirements and he met all of them. I have not been disappointed. Please don't discount rescue--a reputable rescue knows a lot about their dogs.


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## xwildman138x (Jan 11, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Branca's MomHonestly, I would rather have a young adult dog from a rescue than a puppy from a BYB.
> 
> An adult you can see the temperament you are getting, and you can have the hips and elbows done (at your expense) before committing. Some really wonderful animals end up in rescue. Don't rule that out.


I was wondering that. You can have the hips and elbows done before you commit to the rescue??


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Just a reminder to everyone that many dogs who come from expensive breeders do end with health problems, including HD and ED. There are no real guarantees, no matter how much you pay. 

When you adopt an adult who is in a foster home with a reputable rescue you do get a much better idea about temperament than you can with a puppy. And many foster homes do have kids.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

I wouldn't see why not? Perhaps someone from rescue can answer that?


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowJust a reminder to everyone that many dogs who come from expensive breeders do end with health problems, including HD and ED. There are no real guarantees, no matter how much you pay.


Absolutely, my Urro comes from an A-stamped mother and A-stamped OFA - Excellent father-normal elbows, both parents with many generations of A-stamps behind him. But he has crippling ED. 

You stack the deck in your favor but it will still rear it's ugly head from time to time.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

we put away $50 to $100 a week away untill
we had enough to buy a dog. everything else that comes with
having a well taken care of dog we could handle.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i do agree that maybe you should consider getting an older pup, you would certainly be able to better see the temperment.....

this is definitely the route i will be taking from now on.....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I think the "inexpensive option" is rescue/shelter, or finding an unwanted dog on Craigslist. If you are cheaping out on a breeder, then you're not going to get the same quality and support anyway so you might as well save a dog that's already in trouble.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I would more specifically look at Owner Surrenders. I know alot of people in Animal Rescue in my area, and whenever they get in Shepherds they always send me emails. 

They just sent me an email of a gorgeous 1 yr old Dark Sable male that was an owner surrender. Not enough time/money and they give up the dog. There are lots of these kind of dogs out there. And then you get a dog, that didn't really go through as much trauma of being stray and are often housebroken and familar with living in a house. These are great dogs to start with. And for your peace of mind you can always get Xrays on your own before you commit. I've never known a rescue to deny Medical testing at someone else's expense...

And can you get great dogs less expensively? Of course. I didn't pay much for my dogs, and they are from quality lines and I really liked what I saw in terms of temperament. Of course I knew what I was looking for. Some people breed and they don't know what they have (And this is clearly the exception and not the rule). And there are frequently people who cannot afford the $1500 puppy who work some kind of co-own for people who will commit to training/titling. I know many breeders who are usually willing to come down in price for people that they know, who will train and provide good homes. The home is mroe important than the money. It might be to your benefit to get involved in some clubs to get know people. Explore your options.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

While getting a pup from a breeder can stack the odds in favor of a good outcome based on the known factors of the genetics in the bloodlines, health testing, titles/temperament testing, etc... and thus may seem more of a sure thing than a rescue, that only applies if it is a GOOD breeder who does those things.

IMO, if one cannot afford to buy a pup from a good breeder, than getting a dog from rescue is no more of a risk than getting a pup from a BYB or otherwise disreputable breeder. And has the added advantage of rescue.

Many breeders will offer payment plans on their pups.

However there is the additional concern that if money is too tight to afford a pup from a good breeder, does the person have the finances to properly care for the dog in terms of good food, training, vetting? And then of course what if the dog needs expensive medical care either due to a health issue (can happen in even the best bred pups) or an accident? Really the initial purchase price is often the least costly part of having a dog.


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## smyke (Sep 24, 2009)

Yeah, posting your location would definitely help.

My breeder has an adult for sale (I dont know the price), but she is looking to place him somewhere near CT.

He is a grandfather of the little girl we will be picking up on Saturday.








Absolutely amazing dog (in my non-expert opinion)
http://www.vongrafenstein.net/DogsForSale.html


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Please don't support a BYB, they'll never go away as long as people continue to buy from them


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I definitely do not want to support a BYB, nor an irresponsible breeder. And I won't get a dog/pup unless finances allow for correct care. Just wasn't sure what my options were. I thought maybe there are responsible breeders out there who charge less for pups that are not quite what they are looking for in their program, or not qualified for whatever work or show they were bred for (pet quality). 

Owner surrender is an option I hadn't thought about, too. Thanks for that suggestion! 

My son and I used to volunteer at the humane society every week and we worked with a lot of what they called "problem" dogs, which probably shaped my view of rescues. Last year my son volunteered for P.O.P.P. as well. But I can see where having an actual RESCUE involved to temperament test and find a good match would possibly work.

I have a lot to think about.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Thank you for not taking my post as a slam







I didn't mean it that way and also posted it for others that may come along later and read this thread.

Most breeders do charge a bit less for their "pet quality" puppies, but you're still talking about much more than you'll find in the news paper for a few hundred dollars.

I admire that you're doing so much research first, it's a lot of work to find just the right pup/dog and breeder/rescue!

I would probably not adopt straight from a shelter, but I would adopt from a rescue. A well run rescue has knowledgable people that know GSDs and can give a lot of insight into the dogs in their care.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7
> 
> Owner surrender is an option I hadn't thought about, too. Thanks for that suggestion!


Some rescues will post courtesy posts on their petfinder site so keep an eye on those.



> Quote:My son and I used to volunteer at the humane society every week and we worked with a lot of what they called "problem" dogs, which probably shaped my view of rescues.


The dogs are so different once you get them out of the shelter environment. I just pulled one boy from our local shelter that they were going to put down due to "dog aggression".

Once I got him home he was the sweetest dog who only wanted to play with the other dogs. He was phenomenal with Jax. Once he's with the rescue for awhile they will be able to evaluate him and place him with a home that fits.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7
> 
> Owner surrender is an option I hadn't thought about, too. Thanks for that suggestion!
> 
> ...


Yes, just remember a SHELTER and a RESCUE and not at ALL the same thing! Shelter has esentially one purpose--to move dogs in and out. Plus, the chaos of shelters and the general atmosphere can sometimes bring out the worst in dogs. A RESCUE that fosters their dogs in real homes is an amazing way to evaluate the dogs in many different circumstances and to get to know their real personalities--good of bad. IMO, an ADULT from a rescue is the absolutely best way to guarantee a good temperment.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

We have had dogs from several different situations. Bear and Moose were both Humane Society rescues. I completely agree with Jax08 that they acted very differently in the shelter environment. It was difficult to tell their true temperament. Bear was very calm and cuddly at the shelter, but ended up being a very hyper and active dog. Moose acted very confident and aloof, but turned out to be weak nerved.

Gator was located through the local GSD rescue. He was in a foster situation. The foster care giver was able to tell us about his temperament. We were also able to take Moose with us and allow them to play together to see if they would get along. Gator was a great dog, but had health problems that showed up after the adoption.

Bison was purchased from a good breeder. She was able to describe the temperament of his parents and he is a mix of the two. He does have a genetic health problem, but it is minor.

I think what is most important to consider is that no matter where you get a dog, you risk it having a problem of some sort. You should be prepared mentally, emotionally, and financially to love and care for the dog no matter what.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7"you don't need to spend $1500 to get a great dog."


you absolutely do not. Tilden was $32, BUT...










although he's a GREAT dog. he still may not work for everyones household. that said, its hard for me to think of many situations in which he wouldnt work out, but my point being - there is only so much research you can do online. you take the recommendations, then you get out there and meet some dogs, meet the breeders, visit rescues, etc. its going to take a lot more than someone elses experience for you to make the best decision for your family. there are some breeders that i know are phenomenal... still doesnt mean they'll have the type of dog i want. people can give you a list of positives and a list of negatives, but getting out there yourself will give you the questions that are important to you, that you may not have thought to ask before.


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## valkyriegsd (Apr 20, 2000)

Another thing, if you find a breeder you trust, they may have a dog returned to them for non-health-related reasons, so you'd get the best of both worlds; knowledge of the bloodlines and a dog (usually) out of the 'puppy crazies' stage.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i got a pup from a reputable breeder with fear/insecure issues, plus he was extremely infested with roundworms which took me forever to get rid of......it can't be good for a young pups health to be that loaded at such a young age to the point where it took me almost a year to get rid of them......he came with them, i never ever had any worms issue here with my other pups. i can maybe understand a few, but being that loaded obviously whatever wormer she used isn't the right stuff.....i should have never had to witness what came out in his stool 5 days after he came to me and thereafter..........and i really think that infestation took a long term toll on his health and possibly his temperment nuerologically or otherwise. because he should have been a stable dog coming from the parent he did.....i would have had better luck going to a BYB.........i am telling my side because it happens.....i am sure there are repuatble breeders out there but i am extremely gunshy after this trip.........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

not to divert the OP's topic,,but can worms like that, affect a dog neurologically?? 

I remember once, I had a dog with worms,,when I adopted Sami (at 12 weeks) ,,i took her to the vets prior to bringing her home, and said "I want a wormer",,vet said, "oh her fecal is negative",,I said I didn't care,,she wouldn't give me one,,next morning, that dog was pooping out the longest worms I ever saw in my life,,made me gag,,I called them up and said "NOW give me a wormer" LOL..

Ok sorry to hijack the thread.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebi got a pup from a reputable breeder with fear/insecure issues, plus he was extremely infested with roundworms which took me forever to get rid of......it can't be good for a young pups health to be that loaded at such a young age to the point where it took me almost a year to get rid of them......he came with them, i never ever had any worms issue here with my other pups. i can maybe understand a few, but being that loaded obviously whatever wormer she used isn't the right stuff.....i should have never had to witness what came out in his stool 5 days after he came to me and thereafter..........and i really think that infestation took a long term toll on his health and possibly his temperment nuerologically or otherwise. because he should have been a stable dog coming from the parent he did.....i would have had better luck going to a BYB.........i am telling my side because it happens.....i am sure there are repuatble breeders out there but i am extremely gunshy after this trip.........


What was the breeder's reaction? I'd be hesitant to call anyone "reputable" if once you paid for the pup they cut you off completely and offered no explanation or support.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Roundworms are very common in pups, and you have to do a 3 treatment protocol of Strongid every 2 weeks to irradicate them. The vet should have been the one to help you w/ this, I don't blame the breeder for that, and if they were being expelled, she must have wormed them shortly before you picked him up. I think if a pup was so infested there could be nutritional problems, which could in turn cause neurological problems. 
The fear/insecure issues are another issue, I would think that is more genetic if it was seen from the getgo-or a combination, of the biosensor/socialization program not being implemented early on by the breeder.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i really didn't get much of an answer except that the pups were wormed................whatever was used for worming obviously didn't work. i know that mothers will sometimes have worms, but shouldn't a breeder make sure the mother is worm free before she gets pregnant? i would think that would be the healthiest thing for the offspring....
my vet told me that in really bad infestations the worms migrate into other areas of the body, i don't know if even regular worming could address a worm that might have migrated into the brain, etc. but i do know a worm in any of those areas could cause issues. i am basically still trying to figure out what went wrong with this pup........he should have been a stable solid dog...............and No i really haven't gotten to much from the breeder. yep.i was offered a replacement and 1/2 refund.......maybe some could give up a dog at 6-7-8 months old but something i couldn't do......so, choosing to keep him looks like i am on my own............its easy to offer refund or replace, but harder to admit that one of the offspring isn't just right.............


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The mother passes on the worms to the pups, it is very common and I think inevitable. Just natural. My pup came home right after a worming and the first fecal showed clean, two weeks later, he had roundworms. We did the treatment above and he has been clean ever since.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP -- I'm sending you a PM so please check your mailbox


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, a few is understandable, but tons of them even after several wormings................so many that you know they migrated to other areas...........there is only so much room in the intestines.......

anyway, don't want to hog the OP's thread, just putting my two cents worth in about issues pertaining to.....


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Debbie, that was awful







If it would be so normal than we would hear more often about worm infestations like that. My first pup came with very bad giardia, the second pup was healthy and happy and had no bugs at all.

OP is probably changing her mind right now about getting a puppy







Just kidding.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Oksana,
yep, it was awful.......especially since worm infestaions are also a threat to kids and people...........i have never had any other pups with this round worm issue..........i have talked to breeders who make it a point to completely take care of those worm issues before the pups go to homes......yes, puppies do eat stuff and might get worms after coming to homes, but monthly wormings take care of it.....and its not mass quanities coming out in the stool. there is Nothing any more discusting, and really no new puppy owner should have to witness that......


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

LOL, Oksana, I was reading this thread and going, oh lord. I am quite glad I am hearing this now, and not seeing it in shock later...

Actually my first pup had worms (from the BYB) and I do have a slight memory of how icky that was to witness. No ickier than my kid throwing up in my bed every 10 minutes when she had the flu, I guess.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

http://www.gsdcoregon.com/Rescue.htm

The German Shepherd Dog Club of Oregon does courtesy listings for dogs that need to be placed. 

They have had some wooderful dogs listed.

I am not sure how I would feel if I were a breeder about someone needing to make payments. I think the initial large expense is hard for some people but the rest of the expenses are usually spread out and more manageable. I think having pet insurance for medical emergencies is a good thing too.

I put down $500 each on both Havoc and Kayos well before the dogs were even bred. Than I made the rest of the payments in 2 more installments before I picked them up. Havoc was paid for 6 months before he was born, Kayos was paid for before she was shipped.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebi really didn't get much of an answer except that the pups were wormed................whatever was used for worming obviously didn't work. i know that mothers will sometimes have worms, but shouldn't a breeder make sure the mother is worm free before she gets pregnant? i would think that would be the healthiest thing for the offspring....


Mothers who are "worm free" can still pass them onto pups. This is because most dogs who have ever had worms are not truly "worm free". There may be no worms active in the digestive tract, and thus nothing will show up on a fecal and the dog does not have worms. However, worm larvae will encyst in muscle tissue and go dormant. Wormers will not stop this or erradicate the encysted larvae. Then when the female is pregnant, they will migrate to the pups in utero, so the pups are born with worms. Thus, most all pups for the most part are born with worms. It doesn't mean the mother "has worms". 

This is why breeders worm pups, because you can be guaranteed the pups probably have them starting at birth. It has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the breeder.

Worms can also be very difficult to erradicate when the pups are living together in a litter. Especially if it is a large litter. They get the wormer, poop out the dead worms but also viable worm eggs, then all that has to happen is one pup licks a poop pile, or steps in it and licks off his paw, he's infested again and soon are all of his littermates. Unless a breeder can supervise the pups 24/7, following them around picking up all puppy poop as soon as it leaves the puppy's butts for a day or two after wormer is given, the pups can cet reinfested.

A pup carrying a large worm load when it goes home would be an issue, as it would indicate the breeder either didn't worm or the wormer didn't work for some reason. But for a pup to still have some worms floating around needing one more wormer when it leaves the litter and chance of reinfestation is drastically reduced, is not uncommon.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Wow this thread has taken a disgusting turn







I am so lucky I am so lucky I am so lucky - haven't seen worms in about 20 years and that was with a cat so infested he was pooping live ones out. Eww, now I'm remembering that...


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Sorry, but I think when people are implying that a pup having worms is a sign of a horrible breeder, and indicating that nerve/temperament issues could be blamed on supposed neurological damage caused by worms, its important that they get some facts on worms in pups.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me, worms are part of owning animals. Nikon came home from the breeder with a stash of canned food and de-worming powder (panacur). He got a double-dose for 5 days. This was to get rid of any worms and the doubled dose was the giardia dose. There was no reason to think he had worms or giardia but like Chris is describing, it's highly possible and not uncommon. I also use a heartworm "preventative" (have to put that in quotes b/c it kills the worm before it's a worm, doesn't really "prevent" it) monthly that kills rounds, hooks, and whips so basically all my dogs are still de-wormed every month. In fact I believe it has more value to me as a de-wormer than heartworm preventative. I had a brief run in with a foster dog that had severe whip worms and pooped all over my house and yard.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Vets usually give a dewormer (drontal?) to new puppies I think at the second visit. As I see it, Debbie doesn't claim that worms in puppies are something unusual, she is just understandably upset that her puppy came with a load of worms that took a year to get rid of and bring puppy's digestive system into order. 

It seems that her breeder didn't care for proper deworming and didn't provide any communication at least with information what to do and what to expect after the money changed hands. If a pup comes from a reputable kennel and I paid $1500-2000 I bet I would expect some support from the breeder, it's not the worms that would bug me, not the cost and not the warranties. 

I think it's understandable to try to understand what went wrong and where especially if the puppy is a loved member of a family. I still believe in Debbie's case the temperament had to do with genetics and not with worms, though.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Thanks Oksana, i appreciate that someone understands where i am coming from......

from the beginning this has just been a total mystery, i have tried hard to look at all angles, to try and explain this temperment issue. its very mind boggling to say the least.....
When anyone has a dod that show inconsistancys with temperment things that just don't make sense one would tend to look at everything possible, especially since the dog did come from a decent line......i don't think anyone realizes how Darn frustrating it is,,,,,,,,,,,,

debbie


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

also this puppy was almost 12 weeks old when i got him....plenty of time for the breeder to worm him..............and do it right.....

so, we might be off topic here and appologies to the OP, but frankly something went wrong in worming correctly....


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## smerry (Dec 5, 2009)

**Post removed by Admin.**


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## lucymom (Jan 2, 2009)

It is amazing the diverse backgrounds some of the "best" dogs come from, and it is indeed a crapshoot unless you do your homework, learn about what makes a reputable breeder or work closely with a rescue to find the right dog.

That said...I completely lucked out by getting my two wonderful white sheps (not everybody's cup of tea) right off the streets where they had been abandoned, and they were healthy and stable and became my long-lived and beloved companions.

Lucy was free--a long story, but she came from a breeder I think the world of and became my souldog. I went to visit the breeder after my 1200 dollar pup died from viruses just weeks after I bought him, despite thousands in medical intervention.

The breeder wanted to keep Lucy available as a potential part of her breeding program and asked if I'd be interested in just taking her home to give her a loving home life, no strings attached if we didn't bond. I think she knew I was grieving, not ready to invest emotionally or financially in a pup, and found a win-win situation. She ended up not being bred and becoming the best "freebie" ever. I think her breeder knew we'd bond and she did me an enormous kindness in sending Lucy home with me. It's why I went back to buy Zuzu from her for substantial money, but I KNEW I was dealing with somebody who I trusted completely . And Zuzu is all I could ask for.

I have also seen some competively priced pups from the occasional "oops " litter from breeders said to be reputable, or if a dog has a cosmetic but not physical "flaw" and is still a wonderful puppy. 

I see that some breeders to foster out breeding stock, but I'm not familiar with the process or it's ethics. You have to make the dog available for breeding, and for a female, that may mean sending her away to be bred and taking on the health risks involved in pregnancy. I wonder what others' experience is with this practice.

I paid good money for Aik too, and totally lucked out, it was 10 years ago, I found him on a chat group like this from a woman who had his sibling. He came trained, calm and is one of the kindest, easiest dogs you could ask for. It was dumb luck that he was also from a great breeder, who still calls and wants updates on Aik and wishes us Merry Christmas.

Don't discount gut feelings in ALL of your options. If you get the heebie jeebies from a breeder, run. My sick, dead puppy came from someplace that did not feel right, and she's got an impressive web site, but the place itself didn't feel okay, but I ignored it.

Same with a rescue dog, if you can meet the dog first, ask for the straight up about his health, temperament, speak to the foster parent. The rescue org I help out with thoroughy vets their dogs, gets them healthy and works on any issues they bring in to care, then send them off microchipped and with a lifetime of support if needed.

With owner surrenders, you can get a lovely family dog whose family fell upon hard times. But you can also get a diamond in the rough who has been relegated to being an outside dog with no training or manners.

Research, referrals from people who have great dogs and a great experience with a breeder and your own common sense and gut feelings.

Consider options other than a pup--they are absolutely adorable but extremely time and energy-consuming to raise right. They are smart, energetic, immature and get big fast. I have loved all of my puppies, but I'm all done and will treasure getting a sweet rescue next time.

Wow, I am babbling, sorry!

You sound very committed to finding the right dog for your home, I commend you for that! It will be one lucky guy or gal to find a home with you!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

And puppy hood ends fast...... I am really thinking hard about another rescue when my Max is gone and I am ready for another dog. 

Max is a rescue and was a tough dog at first but he was one of those diamonds in the rough. He is great dog and ever so grateful.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Jennifer,

Thank you for that informative post. Getting the "right" dog for my family is so important to me, and I am spending a lot of time learning and thinking about the choices I have. I am definitely going to consider rescue. When the time is right, I will look and see if there is a rescue dog that I feel would be a good fit. But on the other hand, I'd like the experience, just once, of raising a GSD from puphood. (I also just turned 40, have 5 kids and am sort of going through baby withdrawals as my youngest will start kindergarten next fall. No more babies for me... but maybe a puppy would give me another great outlet for my mothering instincts! At least, I like to think that....)


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Rescues have puppies. 
I got Ava at 8 weeks old through rescue


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I have fostered 3 very young gsd puppies and a couple of older ones as well. I helped place several litters of puppies who were in foster care with the rescue I volunteered with. All grew up to be wonderful family dogs.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

The problem is that rescues rarely get in young puppies and when they do, they are usually adopted quickly (and generally have to be altered before going home). GSD looking puppies sometimes come into shelters from an unknown background but they may or may not grow up to be purebred GSDs. If someone wants a purebred puppy, rescue isn't always an option. 

I would suggest keeping an eye on CL and your local classifieds for people looking to rehome puppies that aren't working out for whatever reason. Those puppies (and rescue dogs) are almost always going to be from "BYB"s, so all that people warn against when buying a puppy from a "BYB" applies to them as well such as an unknown health and temperament background.

Occasionally you can find pet breeders who do health testing and aim to produce sound, healthy pets. These breeders generally charge much less for their puppies than show or working breeders and you get many of the same perks such as a known health/temperament background and breeder support, although the parents aren't proven by titles (which is really a big part of what you're paying for from working/show breeders). Many people oppose pet breeding but if what you want is a sound pet from a known background a puppy from such a breeder might fit your needs well.

I'd really like to see more pet breeders like this out there because the demand for popular breed pet puppies far outnumbers what show and working breeders produce. Show/work bred puppies tend to be pricier than what many pet owners are willing to pay for a puppy. Most pet homes, even really good ones don't care what sort of accomplishments the parents or grandparents of a puppy might have - they just want a healthy, sound family dog. 

My first purebred dog was a collie from a pet breeder that health tested and I suspect if I ever got another collie, I would get one from the same type of breeder. He had a moderate head, moderate coat and a wonderful, fairly drivey temperament. The modern show collies just aren't what I personally want and the breed has no working lines.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have seen alot of purebred gsd puppies, rescues on petfinder, almost nabbed one a month ago, but I bit my fingers off before hitting the keyboard LOL..

Granted I get kinda frustrated going thru petfinder postings, that say 'purebred' when just by looking at them you know they aren't, but if you dig for them, there seems to have been quite a few in ct in the past months.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

A local breeder has one now, an 11 week old that was dumped at the pound right after Christmas. Though it does happen, one certainly can't count on being about to find a young purebred GSD puppy in rescue. Older puppies aren't all that uncommon (6-12 months) but the number of under 3 month old purebred puppies in most breeds is pretty low. Rescues also will almost certainly be overvaccinated and early alters, which some people don't find a problem and some do. Either way number of young puppies in rescue certainly can not cover the good homes who want purebred GSD puppies but can't/won't pay $1000++ for one. 

I so agree about Petfinder though - it is not the most user-friendly site. I wish it had an option to find purebred only of the breed you choose. And many shelters really do a bad job of breed IDing which further complicates finding a specific breed. I found my hubby's corgi one Petfinder and some of the dogs which were listed as corgi or corgi mixes were just silly. One looked like a white Great Dane and several were obviously pit bulls. It can be like looking for a needle in a haystack between the way the listings come up and the poor IDing. I think it'd be handy to be able to search for common, purposely bred mixes such as Labradoodles or cockapoos. Regardless of how people feel about the breeding of these dogs, some pet owners like these specific mixes and they are sought after and it'd be nice to be able to direct people to Petfinder who are interested in them.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

Why do you think you have to spend that much for a GS puppy? Paying more doesnt always mean youre going to get the best. Even the most purebred animals can still come down with health issues in the future. Health isnt guaranteed for life. Some of the most amazing German Shepherd dogs Ive seen have came from farms, underwood piles etc. 

In my opinion, dont limit yourself to thinking you have to spend a fortune to get a great dog. And as far as rescues, and adoptions, youre right. Some of those dogs CAN come with issues. Most dogs in shelters are there for a reason. Not saying its always a bad reason because of the dog, maybe the owners husband/wife died, and the person can no longer be financially responsible for the dog.

Just poke around on the internet, check out classified ads in your local newspaper, ask around ( Vet, pet stores, other people that have GSD ) and youll find one that suits your financial budget. Because after all, it takes love, care, and MONEY to make sure these dogs have great homes.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7I'd like the experience, just once, of raising a GSD from puphood. (I also just turned 40, have 5 kids and am sort of going through baby withdrawals as my youngest will start kindergarten next fall. No more babies for me... but maybe a puppy would give me another great outlet for my mothering instincts! At least, I like to think that....)


LOL, I'm the same age with a kindergartner, preschool twins. Some days when Otto was a tiny pup I was thinking I am way too old for this ****! He's grown to be a good boy. A busy boy but a good boy.

Maybe if you posted your price range and where your located (sorry if I missed it), someone can point you in the right direction.

I think an opps litter could be had for in the 800/1000 range. Untitled but registered and otherwise healthy parents the same. Things to avoid would be parents without xrayed hips, breeders who send their puppies home before 8 weeks and/or don't socialize them with humans before that age. There's a few threads active right now about pups who went home early. 

My kids are in here arguing with me about a pizza that's half pepperoni and half meat lovers so it's hard to have coherent thoughts. 

What I'm trying to say is spend a little more on the front end. It'll save you on the back end in terms of vet visits and training. 

Sure there's pups born under a wood pile but what are the changes the owner has checked that the parents hips are good or has paid much attention to temperament traits of both parents and thought about what this will bring in the puppies?

Dogs are somewhat like a used car - you're not going to get all the car for less than all the money. Sure you could probably find a lincoln for $3500, looks the same and has the same mileage as others that are going for $5000. Then it falls apart in less than a year.


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## jenedge24 (Dec 5, 2009)

I agree, that in the long run 1500 is not "expensive" for a a family member who will hopefully be with you for the next 13 or so years. When we were ready for our 1st gsd. I spent about a year reseaching the breed and breeders. I asked my grandpa and parents, lots of questions(my grandfather has had everone of his GSD's from pups to around 13 yrs!) He also says don't be afraid to spend money on a good dog. On the other hand, As I was willing to pay up to around 2000 for a dog Not To breed, Leave that to the pros!! Bo fell into our lap! His owner was going to Iraq. Bo does have an undecended Testicle that will cost more to have him Nutuered. But, after emailing getting as much info as I could, Physically looking and playing with bo then taking bo to the vet and getting his opinion, I decided to take the chance. We love him and couldn't ask for a more perfect dog for our family. Is he a champion, WELL to us he is. Is he an unhealthy NOPE, I hope he stays this way too. The x rays and blood work indecates he should be fine, with proper exercise, diet,& care. Lets face it You just never know, you justt have to do what YOU think is right then just love the dog! a $1500 dog can pick up bad habits and have the same naughty behavior as a rescue dog, the breeder hopefully does the very best they can on their end but they only have them a short time and depend on us to make sure we carry on the efforts they put into the dog. What about fostering? kinda like test driving? Do you have a Vet yet? you could start there and let them know what your looking for. I hope you find the perfect new member of your family whatever way you choose!! P.S. when we are in a bigger house with more land, I will purchase from a GOOD breeder, I want a female and play mate for Bo!


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

My concern is that the OP wants "inexpensive." But even the best bred dog is not guaranteed to STAY "inexpensive."

My last three dogs -- all acquired as pups -- came from good breeders, with good lines. Camper's breeder wasn't nearly as good as Meri's. But she was diligent, attentive and supportive. Camper had several health issues -- allergies, SIBO, and ultimately, partial torsion that required surgery. He cost us a fortune. And he died almost immediately after the surgery at an incredibly young age. 

For what it's worth, he had excellent hips and elbows.







There's more to health than orthopedics. ...Sigh... 

Meri's breeder is VERY highly regarded. If you read any book about beagles that's been recently written, it's likely that the breeder or co-owner is featured and possibly has written a section. Great folks. Meri has a luxating patella that needs surgery. The sire has lots of offspring and there isn't one (that anyone knows of) that has this issue. Meri's was the first litter for the bitch. Given Meri's knee, they have mentioned that they may not breed her again. Meri has no trochlear groove to speak of (She also has beautiful hips and elbows though.







) It's completely genetic. And quite serious. Obviously. 

I'm supposed to let them know exactly what the surgeon finds when he's in there, and when we take xrays of the other knee (we're waiting for her to be anesthetized to do so). Then they'll figure out what should be done. At the very least, they don't plan to breed the dog and bitch together again.

Great breeders. Very supportive. 

Finally, Celo has an issue with his bite. His breeder came extremely well recommended; her lines are excellent. This is another fluke thing that just happened. We've waited to see if he would outgrow it, but it's not happening. My long-time vet is now a board-certified dentist, and he's been trying to figure out how we can fix this without orthodontics. But the longer we wait, the worse the condition of his mouth is. He's going in Wednesday to have impressions made for his orthodontia. 


I don't blame Celo's breeder -- who is also very supportive -- any more than I blame Meri's. We are buying living creatures. Some things can be somewhat controlled for (like HD/ED) but a breeder can't control for everything. 

Total cost for my dogs? Camper probably cost me about $10K in total health care over less than 3 years. 

Currently, Meri's one surgery (hoping her second knee won't need surgery!) will run about $2700, not including rehab costs. S0 maybe $3500-4000 WITH rehab? Celo's "braces"







will cost me about $2000. Given what happened with Camper, I opted to run both of them past the internist who did a complete pre-anesthesia work-up. That ran approx $500 each. 

So...my point is that dogs CAN cost you a LOT of money even after you get them home. 

What I DO have is two friendly, social, stable, amazing dogs that you can put into almost any situation and they'll be perfectly fine. They aren't aggressive. They aren't nervy. They're just great dogs. Temperament IS genetic as well. And excellent breeders worry as much about temperament as they do overall health. What's the point of having a perfectly healthy dog if he's a basket case that you can't do anything with?

Do I recommend getting a dog from a BYB? Of course not. I think you'll have fewer issues with a well bred dog. A dog from a BYB is, imo, more likely to have health issues, and more of them. We do see it on this board often enough. The dog is sick and the breeder is no where to be found, or just as bad, the breeder is blaming the owner for somehow causing what is almost certainly a genetic issue. And we don't usually see temperament issues in well bred dogs the way we do in BYB (and puppy mill) dogs. 

My alternative vet, who treats Army K9s and adores GSDs, always says (with a sad sort of laugh), when she was in vet school, if you weren't sure what kind of dog got a certain disease, the safe guess was "German Shepherd." 

In other words, these aren't dogs for people who want "inexpensive dogs." 

My recommendation is to go with one of our numerous reputable rescues, get yourself a dog that is a known quantity (temperament, orthopedically, etc). We have them as puppies for a few months. But there's a lot that can go wrong during that time as well. And any time something goes wrong, it tends to be very expensive.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm not an experienced GSD owner as this is my first, but I'm sorry, I just have to disagree with those that say if you don't pay $1200+ for a puppy, you're likely to have a lot of health problems.
I paid $300 for my AKC Registered German Bloodline pup, Kaiya. I purchased her from a breeder that lives 15 min down the road from me, but just happened to find him by chance. I was able to visit his home, see the puppies in action, and both parents. He only had one litter and was able to show me papers on both parents on the spot with documentation of several VA German Bloodline Champions in both parents. He and his wife were in their mid 50s and had always owned German Shepherds and loved the breed. He even asked if I would bring the pup back in 6 months so he could see her and how she was doing and to keep in touch and send pics. When I took her to the vet, he raved about what a beautiful and healthy puppy she was. 
Now I'm not saying this is always going to be the case when trying to find a good puppy, but just simply believing that the more money you pay, the better dog you get is just biased to me.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I appreciate all the input and thoughts. 

In a way, I am trying to make this experience the polar opposite of my GSD experience as a 17-year-old clueless girl who just wanted a cute puppy.

At 17: wanted puppy, looked in paper, went to some guy's house, looked at cute puppies, picked one that was cute, paid $50, went home, didn;t know how to train, didn't have a crate, pup chewed the entire contents of my bedroom to shreds, pup got bigger and then I moved away for college. Someone was caring for him for me and he passed away.

I ADORED that dog, but I had no idea what I was doing. Now I have children... a whole family and a home to consider. I can't just go willy nilly getting whatever dog is cute, whether it's from CL or a breeder or a rescue, whether it is free or $1500. 

At 40: want a GSD, research the breed and breeders and care for a year, carefully consider ALL options, learn how to care for and train the dog, and finally get a pup or dog that will fit best in our family and be with us for the rest of his/her life. Maybe even get pet insurance.

Anyway, again, I am not trying to "cheap out" on a dog. I know I could get one pretty cheap from a BYB. That's not what I was asking. Just looking at all options because while I am not opposed to paying $1500 for a pup, I also don't think that is the ONLY way I will get a good dog.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I understand that the a UScA Southeast Region champion sells pups for well under $1000. A few others in this area sell pups from Sch titled parents for $750-1000. 
Of course, then you still have shipping, and other expenses.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

BTW, just for kicks I looked in the local paper just now. I cannot believe all the litters of GSD puppies for $250-$300. BYBs I guess. There's even some "Shepherdoodles" for $300... sacriledge!

Not going there, just interesting.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: cassadee7BTW, just for kicks I looked in the local paper just now. I cannot believe all the litters of GSD puppies for $250-$300. BYBs I guess. There's even some "Shepherdoodles" for $300... sacriledge!
> 
> Not going there, just interesting.


Shepherdoodles??? What the heck is that?? A GSD/Poodle mix?? How do you do that?? lol And charge $300??

On another note, when I looked in the local papers I found all the litters to be in the $300-350 range also. And I was thinking that it had more to do with our area. I can't say that I've ever met anyone here in the South where I've lived that actually competes their dog, and most are purchased as companion pets. My breeder's words to me were that he did not breed for the money and couldn't see charging people what he paid for his dogs. The sire he'd purchased and had shipped from Germany. But I also think I was rather lucky with my breeder and a lot of these BYB are simply trying to make a buck.


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

I agree, people just want to make a buck.

You know the whole "doodle" craze these days, breeding anything that breathes to a poodle. I would guess they crossed a standard poodle with a GSD to get the Shepherdoodle. But omg, I cannot imagine what you would get, lookswise and personality wise, with that cross. Someone needs to be spanked...


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

our paper always has GSDs in that price range. and they are GSDs in name only. One of the breeders lives a few houses down. He heard from his daughter (goes to school with my oldest) that we have a GSD, so he was eager to show off his pups. Scrawny, extremely slope-backed (even as babies!), just horrible looking pups. and the adults? the mom was so cow-hocked and sloped that I'm surprised she could walk. Her back feet actually pointed in opposite directions and her normal standing position had her butt about 3 inches off the ground.
Of course, I had walked down, so had Rayden with me. He asked me if I was sure that Rayden was a GSD since he had never seen one that looked like that. 
Of course, the local vet gave them all a clean bill of health and they have all their vaccines etc. So, as far as these breeders are concerned, that is all that is necessary. I look at as "you get what you pay for" It's possible to find a good breeder that charges less, esp if you are willing to ship the pup or travel to pick it up. But dont' pick a breeder based solely on how much they are charging. 
Of course, you also have to bear in mind that a large price tag doesn't guarantee quality either. There are plenty of BYBs who charge the max that the market will bear without putting a single thought into the health of the dogs.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: DainerraScrawny, extremely slope-backed (even as babies!), just horrible looking pups. and the adults? the mom was so cow-hocked and sloped that I'm surprised she could walk. Her back feet actually pointed in opposite directions and her normal standing position had her butt about 3 inches off the ground.


 That is actually pretty unusual for pet bred GSDs. The mother must be all show bred and likely the father as well. You rarely get extreme angulation in pet bred dogs because it disappears very quickly when it isn't selected for. Even breeding an extreme dog to a moderate dog will usually not produce extreme puppies. Cow hocks of course can come from any line but do tend to go with the extreme angulation.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I don't think it's anything quite that good... I think it's more of an in-breeding problem. they aren't sloped like a SL dog, more like their legs are deformed. they did "select" for it though. as they are quick to brag that their dogs are "just like the ones you see on TV at the dog shows" Mom and Dad were bred by a relative who had been doing it for years. They were the "best" and he was allowed to use them to start his own breeding. 
Remember the craze of the "rag doll kittens" I think that is what they were called? That is the closest image I can give of the way these dogs moved.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think the area you 'shop' in also has alot to do with the pricing of puppies. 

While I do think you can find a good family dog out there for under 1000$ , it's still going to be a crap shoot with any puppy no matter what you pay.

To stack the deck in your favor, it's finding that responsible breeder who is at a minimum health testing their dogs, and is knowledgeable about what they are doing, the breed itself and has a goal in mind with their breeding program. 

speaking of labra doodles, a friend and I just nabbed one that was running in the streets, an 8mth old male..huge doofy boy) , no collar, nothing, owner called AC 3 days later looking for him,,she had a female at home and was gonna breed them)))...AC gave her alot of advise, and the woman ended up signing them both over, since, gee they had NEVER been vetted...happy endings for the dogs..


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

This is just thrown out there, not directed at anyone in paticular and perhaps it's already been said but I didn't go back and read the entire thread.

My biggest complaint about people buying dogs from BYBs or people that just want one litter and then advertise in the paper or craigslist is that irresonsible breeding will *never stop* until people quit throwing money at these people.

_*Stepping off my soapbox and on to read more board*_


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tihannah My breeder's words to me were that he did not breed for the money and couldn't see charging people what he paid for his dogs. The sire he'd purchased and had shipped from Germany.


 Of course he couldn't. For his own dog he did actually go not two houses down the road but to Germany and paid good money for someone else's expertise and effort that created his sire. At the moment he accumulates the same level of expertise himself and puts the same effort into his breeding stock he will see himself charging the same amount of money for his own puppies. 

Companion dogs should be healthier and more solid temperamented than competition dogs in my opinion, and the breeder's support is even more crucial for inexperienced owners.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07*Companion dogs should be healthier and more solid temperamented than competition dogs in my opinion, and the breeder's support is even more crucial for inexperienced owners*.


What she said.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Of course he couldn't. For his own dog he did actually go not two houses down the road but to Germany and paid good money for someone else's expertise and effort that created his sire. At the moment he accumulates the same level of expertise himself and puts the same effort into his breeding stock he will see himself charging the same amount of money for his own puppies. Companion dogs should be healthier and more solid temperamented than competition dogs in my opinion, and the breeder's support is even more crucial for inexperienced owners.


Ahhh, exactly, but he could've since so many BYB use this same mentality to sell their pups. i.e. "My dogs are "so and so bloodline" and I paid $$$ for the sire/dam imported from Germany, so you can be sure you are getting a quality pup." To me he was more concerned with the actual process of being a good breeder and producing quality pups than seeing how much money he could get for them. We talked for hours before I chose a puppy and he even gave me his top two choice of puppies if he was making the selection and why. 
And I don't understand why companion dogs should be *healthier and more solid tempered *than competition dogs? Isn't this what good competition breeders strive for? I always thought in companion dogs that you search for one that can meet the health and temperament of a competition dog?


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

Just with my small experience with GS breeders, there are lots of red flags to look for when trying to purchase a puppy from them.

A lot of those red flags I had no clue about until I started reading threads on this forum. If the breeder refuses to let you come out to the house that is a huge red flag. Also, being able to visit the puppies as they grow is a really good idea. So someone local that you can drive an hour or so every couple of weeks to see the pups would help you see how the dogs are. Being able to see the parents is another great idea. If they want to deliver the puppy to you, that is a red flag. Like I said before, you want to be able to visit the puppies, watch how they interact with their litter mates, you want to see how clean the facility is, and how the parents are interacting with their own.

In no way does that guarantee their health to be perfect, but like Jakoda said. You want to be able to stack the deck in YOUR favor. 

These are small things that Ive learned so far, but they are still very important. Ive also learned to use patience and caution when looking for a GS. And dont trust everything those websites say about their dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The Sargent, I am glad you posted that! You did pick up much info in the past couple of weeks here after all!







 How is your search going for a GSD?


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

Onyx, its going fairly well. I really cant complain. I got turned down by a few adoption centers on a couple of GSD because my home is fence-less.







But thats okay. Ive made some calls and I have a few quotes from some companies that can come out and throw up a nice fence in the next few weeks. I need a fence anyway. 

My fiances parents may have found us a puppy. They wont know until Monday though. Its from the same person they got their youngest GS from. So we shall see.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

If you don't know anything - cannot see - health records including hips - on both parents, if you don't know anything about the temperament of at least a generations or so back, if you can't see how pups are being raised, and breeder has no understanding of why the genes of the sire and dam might combine to make a good dog, then you're taking a bigger risk taking the puppy home.

If you're set on checking out a litter that seems inexpensive, take an informed and experienced friend with you to evaluate the puppy and be ready to walk away from a puddle of fuzzy, friendly puppy breath.

You may or may not get a good companion pup, but you might also get a put that breaks your heart and your budget with health costs. The money you saved will be a drop in the bucket of what you'll pay for health problems.

If the pup is more of a handful than you and your family bargained for, will you hang in there and spend the time and money to keep a difficult dog or will you need to give up such a dog and add one more to shelters?

Please ask yourself these questions.

Caveat Emptor!!


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: zypIf you don't know anything - cannot see - health records including hips - on both parents, if you don't know anything about the temperament of at least a generations or so back, if you can't see how pups are being raised, and breeder has no understanding of why the genes of the sire and dam might combine to make a good dog, then you're taking a bigger risk taking the puppy home.
> 
> If you're set on checking out a litter that seems inexpensive, take an informed and experienced friend with you to evaluate the puppy and be ready to walk away from a puddle of fuzzy, friendly puppy breath.
> 
> ...


I couldnt have said it better myself. 

Nice post, Zyp.


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

"irresonsible breeding will never stop until people quit throwing money at these people."


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Holy cow I guess I felt so strongly about it that I didn't even notice that I didn't spell irresponsible right







until I'm quoted


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

eh...I didn't notice either Barb


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: zyp
> You may or may not get a good companion pup, but you might also get a put that breaks your heart and your budget with health costs. The money you saved will be a drop in the bucket of what you'll pay for health problems.
> 
> If the pup is more of a handful than you and your family bargained for, will you hang in there and spend the time and money to keep a difficult dog or will you need to give up such a dog and add one more to shelters?
> ...


 Everything what said above applies to a PUPPY regardless the place the puppy comes from. 

As much as I despise BYBs it is possible to end up with an exceptional dog from them.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tihannah
> And I don't understand why companion dogs should be *healthier and more solid tempered *than competition dogs? Isn't this what good competition breeders strive for? I always thought in companion dogs that you search for one that can meet the health and temperament of a competition dog?


 Because companion dogs have to be more trusted since less effort is put into their formal training, and they are expected to use their own judgment and be bomb proof in all expected and unexpected environments. They don't need to perfect a certain routine but they need to perfectly fit into any lifestyle they find themselves in. 

People who look for companion dogs also are not very skilled in recognizing and correcting an emerging problem, so they more prone to ruin a dog that is less then stable. Not the rule but quite often.

Yes, competition breeders are striving for that that's why they are a good source for companion dogs. What do the pet breeders strive for?


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Yes, competition breeders are striving for that that's why they are a good source for companion dogs. What do the pet breeders strive for?


Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely agree with your statement, I'd just never thought of it like that~the companion dogs needing more of those qualities. And to answer your question regarding "pet breeders"? In my experience...most strive for the almighty dollar...


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: myamomeh...I didn't notice either Barb


I did







(not)


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

Patience is a virtue when looking for a quality puppy at an affordable price.They are out there but you need to do tons of home work and have lady luck on your side.

I refuse to pay the out rageous prices that a lot of breeders are asking for their pup's.
Always remember any pup no matter what the pedigree or form the so called best breeder can turn out to have problems.

I can't tell you the number of times I have told members on this forum they are crazy to pay these totally inflated prices. But they went ahead and then came the tale of woe and I should have listened to you.
Just because you pay $1500.00 to $2000.00 for a pup does not guarantee a happy healthy pup.

Be patient keep checking the listings. I deal with small breeders who mostly are into training and breed for the love of the breed not the money and are more concerened about placing their pup in a quality home than making the almighty dollar.

My female is now 18 months old and is AKC regestered both parents were born in the Czech Republic. She is exactly what I wanted and more much more and is the picture of health very happy and I paid $600.00 for her. Sure it took some doing but I almost bought another GSD pup for the same price but she had a heart murmer because I was dealing with an ethical breeder he told me about it.
As I told you they are out there be patient and do your homework 
Don't listen to the negativity on here. Yes the pup you always wanted is out there at the price you want to pay. good luck.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Cassadee- Judge's breeder lets people make payments in certain situations. I "paid" $600 on a co-own for him. He was pick of the litter. His pet quality sister was $750, limited registration, and the buyer was able to make payments until the dog was paid in full. She let the buyer have the dog with a $100 deposit. Sometimes breeders want to see their dogs go to good homes, some good homes just can't get over the sticker price shock. 

There are options out there. 

Courtney


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Courtney,

Thanks. I really need to find out more about her dogs. She doesn't seem to have a website. If you have her email can you PM it to me? Thanks









Judge is gorgeous.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: larrydee33I refuse to pay the out rageous prices that a lot of breeders are asking for their pup's.


I'm curious. What do you consider an 'outrageous price'?


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

Anything $1000.00 and above for a puppy.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

I dont think I would pay $1000.00 for a puppy. My cut-off is $750.00


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I just spent over $500 at the vet for my $200 dog.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

You'll have to work extra hard to find a great breeder who breeds great dogs for $750.00


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

Not all dogs that are great cost more than $750.00


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

ask breeders for a breakdown of their cost incurred in producing a litter and then judge what.

Good healthy dogs sometimes come from litters with little or no thought, but the odds aren't in favor of that.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

No you're right not all great dogs cost more than $750.00

But in order to find a breeder that's doing everything right, it'll be tough work to find one that is selling their pups for under $1,000.00

And with all of the really horrible GSD breeders out there, it's *very* important to not support someone that just throws some dogs together and has a litter, it's what is ruining this breed.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.No you're right not all great dogs cost more than $750.00
> 
> But in order to find a breeder that's doing everything right, it'll be tough work to find one that is selling their pups for under $1,000.00
> 
> And with all of the really horrible GSD breeders out there, it's *very* important to not support someone that just throws some dogs together and has a litter, it's what is ruining this breed.


Since Ive joined this forum, Ive learned so much about what makes a breeder reputable, and what makes a breeder disreputable. There are so many obvious things to look out for when buying from a breeder. I had no idea.

I cant believe I almost considered buying a puppy from someone that was delivering them right from their van.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

You have to keep in mind too, the breeder Courtney's Judge came from lives in an area that is economically depressed. I know, I just moved from there less than a year ago. 

She may not be able to ask and get the big sticker for her pups although she has very nice dogs. She may be a nice option for you Cassadee.


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

We are talking about an 8 week old puppy here. You can get one of the so called top breeders and pay top dollar and still wind up with a problem puppy. I have seen it time and time again right here on this forum.

It is one thing to pay top dollar for a trained adult GSD but a puppy is a whole other thing. With the adult you know what you are getting you can't say that with an 8 week old puppy.

I just seen a breeder advertising a litter for $1300.00 for a puppy. I looked at the pedigree and I know there will be problems in that litter. But how many will say oh she is selling her pups for $1300.00 For $1300.00 this must be an outstanding litter?
How do I know this. There is a male in the pedigree that when mated to a paticular female has shown in the past to have problems not only that this pair is on both sides of the pedigree.

A wise person learns from their mistakes. But as P.T.Barnum said there is a sucker born every second. 
So these overpriced litters will sell because these so called good breeders have perpetuated the myth that dollars equal quality. 
This is a false assumpatation especially with an 8 week old GSD puppy.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Market value in the area is also something to consider when looking at breeders.

A breeder who might have a lesser litter will still charge what the market will bear becuase they don't want to look like their selling a lesser dog. This drives up the price in the area.

As someone else said, you might be able to find a really nice dog in a more recessed area. The economy sucks. 

There's a lot to be said for really nice pups in the 6months to a year range that are in rescue. Someone got the dog, couldn't handle them, changed their mind, lost their house, whatever.

The finest dog I've ever had was 6 months old, a stray brought into the shelter. I paid $5 for her. Perfectly healthy, knock wood she's been sick ONCE in her life. Her hips are fair but she's 8 1/2 now doesn't bother her much other than going up the stairs a little slower than she used to. Doesn't stop her from going up and down the stairs atleast 30 times a day chasing me or my kids. Doesn't stop her from biting the pup on his hiney for being a brat


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

Kathy... yes I agree, I am looking into that breeder. 

I have gone through Petfinder and other sites like that. I found a very nice looking pup under 3mo old who had a cast on her front leg. I emailed the contact, and even though I asked, I got almost no information back. "She was a stray." Yes, but I asked what happened to her leg, what kind of care it might need, whether she has been temperament tested. I got nothin'. Very discouraging for someone trying to consider a rescue. I emailed again, being very nice and interested, and got no response. Maybe the pup got adopted or something but it would be nice if I got a response.


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## mysablegsd (Aug 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI just spent over $500 at the vet for my $200 dog.


For what?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Here is the bill from Onyx, she went in for chronic ear infections, feet chewing:
Service/Item (?) $16
Exam $ 19
Ear cytology $ 29
Xenodine(meds) $ 20
Gentizol ointment $15
Rabies(3 yr) $20.60
Heska Allergy test $ 323.50
Thyroid Panel ANTECH $ 93.50
Total $546.10
OUCH!!!!!! Also paid for 3 PromAce pills beforehand.
There goes my new DSLR for awhile...


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> Here is the bill from Onyx, she went in for chronic ear infections, feet chewing:
> Service/Item (?) $16
> Exam $ 19
> ...



None of that can happen with a dog thats over $1000.00? Or..???


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I think the point is that there is no such thing as an inexpensive dog . . .


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidI think the point is that there is no such thing as an inexpensive dog . . .


And youre exactly right.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

So the moral of the story is; our beloved GSD's(or any breed/mutt) do cost from the beginning to the end, but they pay us back 10fold with love and devotion. The cost is a minor player in the big picture.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

Onyx Girl, that would be the bottom line. Yes.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

Sounds about right! My two dogs from shelters both had LOTS of gealth issues. Blitzen had horrid skin problems,ear infections, and immune issues for the first couple years we had him. We spent about $1300 on veterinary treatments and tests, tried different vets and specialists. When we move from the east coast to Colorado, his issues seemed to magically dissapear fortunately!
Sasha was a malnourished stray and very skinny, with severe ear infections in both ears. Of course on top of that she got nasty kennel cough that quickly turned to pneumonia, and lost even more weight. We spent about $600 on her, she is mostly okay now but does still have ear problems regularly. 
Dasher I got from a BYB for $200 and he has never been sick. His hips seem fine and our vet doesn't see anything to be concerned about so far.He is very athletic and can literally go all day! I am very happy with his temperament and appearance. 
I think it's pretty hard to guarantee a dogs health and temperament no matter how high quality the breeder is or isn't. I know people who have or had GSDs from reputable breeders with fine pedigrees that costed $$$ and weren't happy with them. THere are plenty of folks with BYB dogs too that love them and plenty who found out why that can be a bad idea. 
When I get a new dog, I really go for a certain feeling I get from the dog. It's hard to explain, but something just seems to tell me "This is your dog". I had looked at other pups and shelter dogs before I got each of mine but waited for the one I got that feeling with. If t's the right dog, I will pay a breeder their asking price, adopt or buy somone's oops pup.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidI think the point is that there is no such thing as an inexpensive dog . . .


i'm not so sure about that [yet].
tilden cost me less than a bag of dog food, in in his 3yrs of life - my most expensive purchase was his leash. his hip x rays were done for free and are 'good', so at least on that front - we're okay!


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Camerafodder
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: CastlemaidI think the point is that there is no such thing as an inexpensive dog . . .
> ...


Lol ...keyword here. Yet


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Ditto!!!! 

Camera got lucky!!! 

Actually my consistently most expensive dog has been Havoc.
Dollar wise Kayos' new hip was a killer but other than that she has had no problems. 

Havoc has been one thing after another. Joe is going to schedule him with a dermatologist for alelrgy testing next week. I don't want to think about what it is going to cost - but hey---- we have insurance!!!! 

I think most people can afford the day to day care and can work out some of the more expensive things but that initial purchase price can be hard to scrape together.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWCamera got lucky!!!


twice!! Gia has HD, but wasn't a good candidate for surgery by the time we found out. Her supplements, even over the next few years - will still total less than what others pay for pups. i've had her 10yrs and i think my largest vet bill to date was $300 which included x-rays, bloodwork & meds.

i definitely agree that i've been lucky... but after seeing so many people do things right and end up screwed, along with the amount of people who do everything wrong and end up fine... i'm just gonna have to keep doing what i'm doing and cross my fingers......just like everyone else


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

My service dog was a rescue dog, so just as others have said don't count them out for temperament or health!


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## larrydee33 (Feb 25, 2007)

Great stories especially for those of us looking for a GSD and don't have a big budget to work with. Thanks


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

For me it wasn't really a money issue, or a budget issue. I've had two dogs from the shelter (mixes) first one was very healthy, lived a long, long life. Second one is six years ole now, no health issues (spay incontinence, by that is not genetic, LOL). 

When I decided to get a puppy, I decided to go with working lines, and to buy from a breeder. So I started putting money aside. I was willing to pay for what I wanted. If I wanted to adopt a dog from the shelter, I went to the shelter and adopted a dog. Whether the dog was going to be healthy or not, or have other issues or not, adopting from the shelter was the decision I made, and was willing to live up to my comitment to this dog. 

When I decided to get a puppy for Schutzhund, I didn't berate publicly the cost, the process, the screening by the breeder, the reciprocal contract - all new territory to me, but it went with the territory of deciding to buy from a breeder. I feel that buying from a breeder is much less a game of chance in finding a healthy dog, but I do accept that there is still a chance, and there is only so much you can control.


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## WayneMeganGSD (Dec 21, 2009)

Its not even so much about the dog getting sick, and having outrageous vet bills. There are lots of other things to consider. Like the dog getting stolen, hit by traffic, attacked by other animals both wild, and domestic. All that can be taken into consideration as well.

But you know, like many people have said before. Its a crapshoot. I say do what makes you happy, and while you have the dog reap the benefits of the happiness the dog can bring you.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

i agree castlemaid - its not purely expense for me either. when i wanted to adopt Gia, i adopted Gia, and when it came to Tilden, i was prepared to set aside a couple of dollars here and there to save up for him, since i knew exactly what i wanted with him, it just turned out that i didnt need to. i'm not against breeders at all, and i fully respect those that choose to go thru breeders when adding their new family members, i just want to make sure that they are well educated on the matter and know that the dogs in rescues are just as diverse as the individuals adopting them.

its extremely common for people to think that puppies bond better or all the adult dogs have 'issues' whether health/temperament/behavioral or that all the dogs come from unknown backgrounds and/or arent trustworthy with kids, etc... that just hasnt been the case for me, and i don't mind preaching it over and over and over. i'll do it until all the rescues are empty... which we all know won't happen.

i know that all cases arent as successful as mine, but if it ever did come down to a budget for me - i'd still rescue a dog before getting one for cheap out of the newspaper or supporting a shady byb. and as for reputable breeders and their prices - i don't think that a high dollar guarantees anything at all - but i do feel the need to reward (compensate) them for doing right by the breed and with that reasoning - their prices are justified in my book.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I think for a lot of people undestanding the different temperments and qualities of GSD's is not very strong, especially for someone not very experieced with the breed. A really good breader will be able to tell better than "most" BYB types and "match" a pup to a suitable home. Unfortunately I think a lot of the problem with some BYB type of breeders is in allowing a person to pick their own pup from a litter with little or no experience in doing this kind of thing, this is where the experience and reputable breeder is a real asset. If you pick a pup based soley on this is the "cutest" or the "biggest" or the "fuzziest" then you may be getting the wrong dog for you. Before I get jumped on about this, let me state I have done just this myself, and have later realized just how lucky I was. Just because a dog is from "working" lines, does not mean that it will be high energy and harder for the average person to train, just as just because it is from "show" lines it will be unsuitable for working purposes. Rescuing dogs, especially for first time owners, is something I advocate for very stronglt. It still will be a gamble, but you stack the odds in your favor when you allow an experienced breeder and/or rescue to help you with your choice.


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