# Where do your Schutzhund dogs live?



## Kaidsmom (Oct 12, 2009)

I went to the club last night and did some work with Kaid, and I was very pleased with my little guy. I was able to see some VERY nice dogs that belonged to a National Competitor, I was in AWWW of these dogs.When I talked to their handlers about how they got the drive that these dog presented..they began to talk about people that have dogs that go to work with them that 's their "buddy" and that live with them in the house. They keep the dogs they have kenneled and the only thing those dogs do is Schutzhund training.

Kaid does live in my house and I want him to be my companion and partner with schutzhund as the job that I have chosen for us to have. My goal is to be able to title Kaid.

Am I wrong to think that Kaid can be a working dog and my companion/partner? If I want him to well in Schutzhund do I need to change the way I am doing things?

I want more for Kaid than what those dogs have, yes they are happy and they live to do Schutzhund, But I so not know that I fully agree.


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## Branca's Mom (Mar 26, 2003)

Many SchH dogs, including national level dogs can and do live indoors with their handlers.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Some people have kennel dogs and some people don't. It all depends on your set up and whether you want a house dog or not. Many of the national people have a lot of dogs and have no choice but to have kennel dogs. One of the national level people that trains with us has a house dog that sleeps on his bed every night.

I personally want my dog with me as I like having him around and would hate to have to leave him in a kennel all the time. What a waste.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

People that place WINNING above everything else - those are the types of people that make their dogs live ONLY for training and trialing.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

One vote here for house dogs.. mine are all members of my family first. IMO, if they have the drive for the work, it doesn't matter if they live in the house or not.


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## Lynn_P (Mar 17, 2004)

One thing I would like to add though is that I don't put a lot of "manners" on my dogs in the house. I live alone so it makes a big difference than those handlers that have family, etc.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

My Schutzhund dog, errr uhm pup lives in the house with me and my family!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

In the house, but not because I'm uber-pro-house dog kind of person, just because I rent so I cannot build really nice runs here, it would not be allowed and I would not spend all the effort on something I'd have to leave behind. If I had my own property and space and security, I'd consider some really secure kennels/runs for when I'm at work. At night I always like the dogs "in", whether that's at home or when we are traveling. During the day they can be in the dog van or outside if we are visiting someone with a fenced yard but at night they sleep in our room at home or inside in crates if travelling. I do like them inside, my dogs are my pets and companions as much as they are SchH (Nikon) or performance dogs (Kenya). Like Lynn says, we don't have kids and don't usually have company at our home, so having perfect manners and being super calm and clean is not really a requirement in my home.

I won't have anyone tell me that I cannot do this or that based on where I choose to house my dog. I think it's all personal preference and what each person has the space and money to do. If I had to kennel my dog to squeeze every last ounce of drive out of him, then I'd probably be getting a different dog for SchH. 

As it is, my SchH dog lives indoors and even has a house and yard full of toys, some even the same toys that we use in SchH for obedience. Yet he has pretty crazy ball drive, no less than any of the other dogs in our club. It's all contextual and for us, he knows that it's about the relationship, he knows that I throw the ball or I make the ball come alive, so he can carry the same toys around all day and still start whining and shaking with excitement the second I pick it up.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

This argument is as old as the hills.

Many people will say competition dogs must be kennel dogs, not house/family dogs in order to build drive and desire to work, prevent "house manners" from interfering with training, etc.. And that if the dog has manners instilled, or gets free time with the handler playing and interacting without having to work for it, it will harm the work. 

I have found this to be most common amongst serious competitors, as well as the "old school" type people. There are some few cases where it may be advisable to do so. The rare dog who's great at sport/work but doesn't make a good companion. Or a household where only the handler is interested in dogs or SchH, and other members of the family are not or would not work with the handler in balancing work/home life and would create serious problems.

But in my experience, most people who advocate this sort of lifestyle are carrying over myths that have been perpetuated for decades and they themselves have never tried any other way. 

While there may be some truth to it, my personal feelings are:
My dogs are first my friends and companions. SchH comes second. I got into this because I love dogs, love having dogs and living with dogs and working with dogs. They aren't sporting equipment.
If a dog must be deprived of attention in order to want to work, either it doesn't have the correct temperament or the trainer/handler is incompetent. Either pick a new dog or a new sport.
I have found that the bond and relationship developed through living with my dogs as companions pays dividends in training and is not a handicap.

So to answer the question, our dogs live in the house. They are allowed on the bed and furniture, spend a lot of time just hanging out and being dogs, get lots of "free" play with us and the other dogs, go for walks, swim in the pond, take trips to the pet store, go to work with me on occasion, and all the regular pet things.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

You also want to define "in the house". Some people will be adament that their dogs are house dogs, but you need to ask if the dogs are loose in the house during the time that the owners are gone and if dogs are rotated.

People will multiple dogs that can not co-exist free in the house can end up crating for 18 plus hours per day. To me, that is not acceptable and not "house dogs".

We do have kennels; big barn building, covered and protected. Large kennels, NPR playing in the background. Dogs are part of the family, in and out of the house. We do not have "turn out area" used to exercise dogs. We spend individual time with each dog, separate from training. We have 3 very dominate males and one major alpha female. So, it is fun, but work.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Good point. Some house dogs spend less quality time with their people than some kennel dogs.

So perhaps a better way to approach the question is "can a SchH dog also be a pet/companion?" Because beyond where the dog eats and sleeps and spends time when the owner isn't home, that's really the root of the controversy in most cases.


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## rokanhaus (Mar 20, 2006)

Some dogs can handle living in the house as a part of the family, and do well in schutzhund. Some dogs can't and benefit from more time "away" from their handler and the normal stress that living in the house can bring.

Some owners can handle their schutzhund dogs in the house and all the drive and antics that comes with it. Some owners cannot.

Hawk ( 12X schH3, 10 at regional and Regional and National level) has always been my pet and buddy first and foremost. The female I titled before him drove me NUTS and had to spend part of the day in her kennel. Doc, my current dog in training, has to spend the day in the kennel versus living in the house, as the house is Hawk's domain. But whenever we are out of town together, it is his turn to sleep bedside.









IMO, There is no right or wrong. It depends on the dog, the owner, and the family.

It does make me sad though to see any dog live completely in a kennel and only come out to "work". Every dog should get swims at the lake, a hike, and general hang out time with the owner. It is my opinion that the performance will only get better and the relationship improve by taking the time to just enjoy the bond.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

True, Sue. My SchH dog is crated when I'm not home (unless I'm only gone for an hour or less, then he is free), so it's not much different than being kenneled. That is why if I had the right property, I'd build nice kennels outsides he'd have more space. 

I don't see why a dog can't be a SchH dog and a pet. Nikon's training for some other performance events as well but we use the methods for SchH in these scenarios so there is no conflict there. I can see how that might be a problem, but just being in the house? Not really.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Our dogs are. All in and out of the house, even crazy Fannie . When I was single and working, two dogs were full time. That was my limit, as I wanted to spend QUALITY time with them, hanging out, doing things. Any more than that and it dimishes the time you can really spend and what is fair.

Time spent just hanging out, playing with the dogs, traveling, etc.

That is in addition to training.

But, Quasi and Enzo do not get along (both very alpha). Hella is pushing Fannie, but hung around Emi.

Interesting mix....


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## Kaidsmom (Oct 12, 2009)

Well I am not going to change Kaid being in the house. He most defiantly first and foremost my partner. I do not have kids and my roommate fully understands what I am doing and supports it. So having a driven dog in my home is not going to be a problem.

Another opinion? 
The club members were also talking about building drive in a members dog..(a presa !?!?)and were advising the guy to crate and tease his dog. Saying that this torture ( those are the words they used) would build his drive.

I do not agree fully with this either....I can understand maybe crating before training to try to get energy(something else talked about) But could this not be potentially damaging to a breed of dog that has aggression issues?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, I've done that sort of thing with my dog but not using a crate. As a puppy I backtied him to a tree with his harness on and "teased" him with rags or a flirt pole. I never did this in the crate though b/c I wouldn't want him biting at the bars, I wanted him to get a bite and win the toy a few times, and also using a backtie has much more range of motion.

Some people get a kick out of crate aggression. I personally do not since my dogs live indoors and are often crated not only in my home, but at hotels, other people's homes, indoor training facilities, dog shows, etc. If my dog is in a crate and sees another dog being worked with a fun toy, I don't get upset that he is barking, but I don't intentionally do that sort of thing using a crate.


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## Kaidsmom (Oct 12, 2009)

(Well, I've done that sort of thing with my dog but not using a crate. As a puppy I back tied him to a tree with his harness on and "teased" him with rags or a flirt pole. I never did this in the crate though b/c I wouldn't want him biting at the bars, I wanted him to get a bite and win the toy a few times, and also using a back tie has much more range of motion. by Liesje)

This was not at all what they were talking about doing. 

I think they are already going to increase the frequency of this dogs aggressive tendencies. He was worked in the field with another dog on the other side of the field and the presa got away from his owner and went toward the other dog the handler pinned is dog and froze ...thank goodness the presa's owner got to him when the dog stopped moving. I will not ever be training at the same time as that dog ...accident waiting to happen right now.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I would not tease a dog in a crate. This can create all sorts of fallout as it relates to the crate itself.

Buiding drive, intensity, barking, etc... through frustration is a common, and sound, training technique. But I would do it *in training*, like the back tie method Lies mentioned. Never in a crate. But then I view the crate as a place where the dog should be unbothered. It's a safe, quiet, peaceful place. And I wouldn't want to teach my dog the opposite. Dogs barking and thrashing and acting out in frustration while crated at training, trials, etc... is a major annoyance, distraction and general pain in the butt to deal with, so why encourage that behavior?


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## Kaidsmom (Oct 12, 2009)

I agree, Kaid likes his crate and that is his spot. I understand the need and use of frustration in training ...but not in a crate.


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## Action Jackson (Nov 18, 2009)

I would like to put sheba in Schutzhund, she is going on 2 and has lived in the house with me and my wife from 10 weeks. 
Have I messed up is it to late and how do I know if she has the drive?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

Why the heck would they be doing that to a presa? Just what a guard-dog type needs ... crate agitation to bring out more defense.


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## W.Oliver (Aug 26, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KaidsmomAnother opinion?
> The club members were also talking about building drive in a members dog..(a presa !?!?)and were advising the guy to crate and tease his dog. Saying that this torture ( those are the words they used) would build his drive.


My advice, run don't walk to the exit. 

There are many ways to build drive through confidence rather than fear. These GSDs we love are denning animals and the crate should be their sanctuary. That notion/method is like teaching someone to fight by beating the crap out of them when they lay down in bed at night. When I tell my dog, "hup" and point to the crate, she goes in without hesitation....nothing bad has ever come from being in her crate. That is just crazy.

You have to be your own person, and make your own decisions about what is right for you and your dog.

I was at a T. Floyd seminar, and the kennel/bed conversation came up. I stayed in the background and worked at remaining silient on the subject, as I was surrounded by kennel people. Finally they asked me, and I confessed. My dog sleeps in my bed, and goes everywhere with me, all the time, except work. The only time she is crated is during SchH training, and on some occassions when we're all gone to church or out to dinner. That opened the door to quite the lecture....no dog will ever reach it's full potential under those conditions. Think of it in terms of training day....you keep the dog crated until it is their turn to train. It helps increase the intensity while on the field, and kenneling, amplifies that entire concept. The logic is sound, and I can see that. I agreed with them, and asked, "so if I kennel my dog, and limit our time together to training, it will intensify her performance, and we can achieve 98s, or I can continue spending every free minute with her as my companion, and score 88s?"...."Yes, you've got it!", they commonly replied. I smiled and replied, "88s are OK with me!", and laughed at them all. Poor national level competitors....they think I am the one that doesn't get it!!! My GSD is not a set of golf clubs.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Interesting thread. 

My dogs rotate between a kennel we have outside, crates in the house, and house time. The younger dogs have less free house time to avoid problems. They get into everything unless they are under constant supervision...so if they cannot be supervised then they are contained. My oldest dog is mostly out all the time in the house when we are home.

I would say however that the amount of time I crate/contain my dogs has a direct relationship to how much training we do. My boys are not what I would call "high energy". Their drive for work is great, but if they get tired they will definitely slow down and get sloppy. And they tend to get tired more quickly than our female who would go go go all day long. 

That said, we all agree that training you dog/puppy is mentally tiring for them since it's what we often suggest to people with active puppies. So when I am preparing for a trial, training many days, or training something that is difficult for my dog I will crate more. In the house he lays down and rests but he is still always alert for movement and what is going on. He moves with me from room to room as I move around the house and is also listening for things going on outside. 

In his crate though, he sleeps the sleep of the dead. It's like he knows he's not going anywhere so he doesn't bother to listen anymore. So if I feel he needs more recovery or prep time then I give it to him by crating more.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

I base the kenneling of the dogs on my house situation. Sometimes I just need them out of theway! When I had my female and then added a male pup. She was out in the house and he in the crate. He is crated when I am gone. Both dogs were out together when I was home.
Kenneling is more of a management issue not an exercise in drive building. I will crate Nandi, my male, more when our training intensifies and I need to re-focus him. But only a week or two of extra crating. That will change soon, however
I am getting a new puppy (a male) in 2 weeks. Nandi will be crated more as the pup gets settled in. This may be interesting - 2 males! It all depends on how I manage the house.

My dogs are companions first and formost
FWIW: Michaela Knoche's (sp?) WUSV and BSP CHampion Javir vom Talka Marda is a house dog. 
These dogs love their humans. So silly to use crates in the manner IMO. They are dogs not equipment.


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## Vertigo75 (Jul 11, 2006)

Our dog is our family companion first and Schutzhund dog second. He lives indoors with us, gets to play with my children, or be their big head rest while they are on the floor together.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Flash is a house dog but when you add it all up I'm sure I don't spend much, if any, extra time with him compared to someone who has a kennel dog. I work and have all the same general everyday obligations as any other person. The only difference is during our time apart he is indoors. I think this is something many people on both sides of this argument tend to forget.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Pet and companion first, hobby second.

House dog here, with crating while I am at work. She sleeps on my bed each night, and is sleeping at my feet as I type this. The only reason I really even crate her is that I am afraid that I will leave something out that would be dangerous to her when I am not there to keep an eye on her... my shortcoming not hers. A dog is a dog and will get into stuff, its a given. I'd feel pretty terrible if she was harmed cuz she got into the soap or the window cleaner that I accidentally left out. (just examples, I TRY to remember to put everything away when I'm finished with it.)

Oh, and yes, I crate her when I am at dog training. Two reasons here. First, it keeps her safe when driving to and from training at highway speeds. Second, it keeps her contained during training, especially the protection phase, during which she might hurt herself or damage my vehicle while waiting for her turn to train.

Maybe I just got lucky, but my dog has plenty of drive without using crating as a means to increase it. But she is also very well balanced and does fine in the house. Perhaps I am wrong, but in my mind our bond is only strengthened by the amount of time we get to spend together with her not being a crate/kennel dog.

I don't think the German Shepherd Dog was ever envisioned by its creator and champion Captain Max von Stephanitz to be locked up in a crate or kennel but for a couple hours of training each day. The dog was meant to be with its flock or herd and its family, working and protecting both.

There are a lot of top level competitors out there that crate and kennel their dogs, no doubt. They get awesome, often astounding scores at high level competitions. But we are all in this together to better the breed, right? Why don't we focus our efforts on breeding a dog that is balanced enough to live with its family AND do the work or the sport? A healthy dog, happy dog... guardian, companion, friend.

Maybe I'm just too idealistic, but I'll take my house dog and 259 points over a piece of equipment stashed in my backyard "until I have time to deal with it" and 270+ points any day.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

My Sch. dog is a house dog. He can be left loose for under an hour, but is crated while I'm gone about 6-8 hours. I do have an outdoor kennel for him but he is safer in the crate than the kennel when I'm not home. He is out in the kennel when I'm home or in/out all day. I try to take him with me everywhere I can. 

He sleeps on his bed beside mine. Has a buttload of toys and gets doggie birthday parties. He's darn good at Schutzhund though as well. 

Courtney


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My TD told me Sunday to not let my pup run around with my other dogs and to pick up the toys in the yard. 
He is progressing and happy, getting out the energy so I don't think I am going to heed that advice right now. The days are so short, every bit of exercise he gets is all good for now.


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Jane, I think what your TD was getting at is that all good and positive things need to come from you, especially during the imprinting phase of puppyhood. If toys are laying around, the pup can find things that make it happy without coming to you to get its play and excitement. Its fine to have a few low-drive toys around, but you should control how much time the pup gets to spend with that special toy or two that really drives it nuts. That toy will eventually become your training reward.

I have Cuz balls, Kongs, Nylabones laying around. There are a couple Jolly Balls out in the back yard. But the ball on a string and the tug toy are safely tucked away in the training box until SchH club when they come out.

My girl is three years old and well imprinted that everything that is good in life comes from me. When she was a pup almost all the toys but a few were controlled by me. The food came from me, the treats came from me. As she got older and she had been well imprinted, I could leave a few more toys around, but when she was young it was pretty much all controlled by me.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I wasn't some uber controlling







h0I3 that didnt' let her have any fun. It tool a lot of committment and time on my part to ensure that she spent most of her time playing and having fun while being imprinted. There's nothing wrong if you can't devote hours a day. You do what fits right for you and your dog. If you can't spend that much time playing and imprinting, then by all means the pup will need something to keep itself busy with or your shoes will suffer the consequences! LOL


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I agree, with your post!!
I have tugs and balls for obedience training only. High value ones that Karlo loves.

This was about Karlo rushing out the door when I let him out of his crate(we were getting ready to leave for the club) and trying to be the first one to the big jollyball before another dog could, he crashed into the door, then held his back leg up. That is where the conversation came from. 
He had a bout of Pano in our last SchH session and he asked me if he was still limping. Luckily he recovered from the door crash!

As a high energy youngster with little daylight hours to get that energy out, I'll let him have the jollyballs, cuz's and footballs for now. 
The toys are only fun when I am out there tossing them around anyway. He really doesn't keep himself busy, he wants me to entertain him, the other dogs aren't as fun either. They all want their humans out playing with them. 
I want a happy, balanced pup that does know the rules and so far Karlo is that!


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Sounds like things are going as they should then, Jane. My girl is constantly bringing things to me... dropping a ball in my lap and then sitting there, staring at me until I do something with it. I've had her bring me a ball while I was doing something on the computer. I was totally engrossed in what I was doing and looked up a half hour later and she was still sitting there waiting for me to throw the ball for her! LOL


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I know that look! Karlo gives the sideways glance that has a bit of a challenge in it, looking to me then the ball. 
I'll change things up if needed, for now I am _very _happy with my **big** Wildhaus boy. 
* he takes after uncle Dante...


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## krylos (Oct 19, 2006)

Aww heck Jane, I didn't even look at your signature! Hello fellow Wildhaus owner!


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Right now I'm only doing schH with Isa but, Cody was also doing it before he retired cause of arhtritis, my dogs are always inside with me. They are almost never in crate unless I leave the house. They sleep with me, they follow me room to room, they are always going to come first to any sport I do. 
Akbar is rarely crated during the day unless I'm gone for an hour or if we're gonna be longer we take him with us so I can let him go potty, at night he's still crated though. 
My older twos' obedience has not been "watered" down just because they live/sleep with me in my house/bed.


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