# Genetics of Fear.... "Experts", please chime in:



## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I have a very dear friend who has a Dalmatian mix that she rescued aroung 9 months or so (maybe a year). She is now 4 years old. The dog has fear issues, submissive peeing issues, and has bitten one person (not badly) some time ago (the person was leaning over the dog to hug my friend's father, while the dog was in his lap). My friend says the dog was possibly abused when young. I don't have the specifics, although I believe the dog was rescued as a pup. The rescue put her out with another terrier for "socialization". 

My feelings are that much of Sassy's issues are genetics. My friend, who admits she hasn't done any training with her, thinks it's all because she was "abused" and a rescue. I think that because she's been in a good environment for so long that this points to genetics moreso. She thinks once abused, always fearful. It's not clear (at least to me) what kind of abuse the dog underwent, or even if there was any. 

I'm finding it hard to explain the role of genetics coherently to her. :crazy: She is very versed in human genetics regarding the role of cancer in humans, and she is not buying the role of genetics in terms of dogs temperaments. 

So--can some of you please advise, so I can point her to this thread? I've tried explaining about how some dogs can be raised in a kennel with very little human interaction and still come out stable, solid and excellent companion dogs, whereas other dogs have good owners, excellent training, and still will always have to be managed due to genetic fear aggression, but I don't think I'm doing it well. I've tried explaining that dogs that bark aggressively at people are often NOT protective, but rather fearful. I'm doubtful she thinks I know what I'm talking about. 

So I'm hoping for some "expert" explanation that I can give her for reference. Links to prior threads are good too. I did try searching under "genetically fearful" and "fear and genetics" and "fear aggression" but didn't really find what I want.


Also, I was unsure of what forum to put this in, so if someone thinks it would be viewed more somewhere else, feel free to move.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Would this help?
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4138/4796578678_4a7a78eeca_o.png


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

What do the green and blue mean? :blush:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It's just an over simplified illustration that shows how a dog is a product of nature (genetics) *and* nurture but that you cannot "nurture" (train and socialize) a dog outside of its genetic boundaries. The green and blue show that you could have the same dog end up a little differently if it was raised by a different person, but never outside of the genetic boundary.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Gotcha! That explanation is great!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also, I've heard many people say that in Schutzhund when a dog is under pressure or stress it will revert first to its genetics, then its foundation, and finally to its training. I think this also applies to how dogs react to life in general. Training and socialization matter (as well as past experiences) but if a dog has poor genetics and lacked a good foundation early on you probably can't overcome that, only manage it.

I for one do not like it when people say their dog was "abused" simply because it has some avoidance or fearful reactions. My first dog acted very afraid of certain people and things and a lot of people tried to tell me she was abused. It was kind of funny, but not really. She was never, ever abused. In fact she had great foundation and training, a great life from the moment of birth. She just had a genetic weakness that could not be overcome, so I never pressed those issues, just avoided people/situations that stressed her out. Also, when working with friends and family on various dog behavior "issues" (I saw that in quotes because most of the dogs are find it's the people/training that's the problem!) I don't like when people focus on the dog's past. I've found that softer, weak nerved dogs thrive with consistency. They like to know what is coming, what to expect, and what's expected of them. When people get all emotional about a dog possibly being abused I find that they tend to lose consistency in how they interact with their dog and it just makes things worse. I'm not one of those people that insists "coddling" a fearful dog automatically makes it worse, but I find that people who are really coddly towards a fearful dog are often ignoring what that dog really needs. FWIW I am speaking in general terms, not GSD (only one of my foster dogs has been GSD and none of the friends and family I've worked with have GSDs).


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Here are a few links discussing genetics and temperament that may help:
Canine Behaviour: Selecting for Improved Temperament | Cynologist

http://actavet.vfu.cz/pdf/200776030431.pdf

Canine Behavioral Genetics: Pointing Out the Phenotypes and Herding up the Genes


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Also, I've heard many people say that in Schutzhund when a dog is under pressure or stress it will revert first to its genetics, then its foundation, and finally to its training. I think this also applies to how dogs react to life in general. Training and socialization matter (as well as past experiences) but if a dog has poor genetics and lacked a good foundation early on you probably can't overcome that, only manage it.
> 
> I for one do not like it when people say their dog was "abused" simply because it has some avoidance or fearful reactions. My first dog acted very afraid of certain people and things and a lot of people tried to tell me she was abused. It was kind of funny, but not really. She was never, ever abused. In fact she had great foundation and training, a great life from the moment of birth. She just had a genetic weakness that could not be overcome, so I never pressed those issues, just avoided people/situations that stressed her out. Also, when working with friends and family on various dog behavior "issues" (I saw that in quotes because most of the dogs are find it's the people/training that's the problem!) I don't like when people focus on the dog's past. I've found that softer, weak nerved dogs thrive with consistency. They like to know what is coming, what to expect, and what's expected of them. When people get all emotional about a dog possibly being abused I find that they tend to lose consistency in how they interact with their dog and it just makes things worse. I'm not one of those people that insists "coddling" a fearful dog automatically makes it worse, but I find that people who are really coddly towards a fearful dog are often ignoring what that dog really needs. FWIW I am speaking in general terms, not GSD (only one of my foster dogs has been GSD and none of the friends and family I've worked with have GSDs).



Agreed!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Good links, gagsd! I will check them out and forward them.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

They are not specific to the situation, but have a lot of information about how genetics affect temperament and the importance of "correct" breeding.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Ok, I skimmed the links, and yes, they have some very good info, but I guess I'm looking more for things along the lines of Lies' post about her dog and it being genetically fearful. I too think many people assume a dog has been abused when it is just genetics. 

Any more people? I've seen many really good threads/posts about this, and now when I want them I can't find them. :help:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you want more anecdotal evidence....a friend of mine has a female GSD she purchased after the dog was a year old. The dog was born and raised a kennel dog (lived in an outdoor run). She had no training, no socialization, was filthy when she got her....the dog knew no one and nothing. But she's a great dog! She was social with her handler/pack and a confident dog from day one. Within a few weeks she was completely house trained and has always lived as an indoor pet with other dogs (and a few other random animals my friend has rehabilitated). She's now the top Ultimate Air Dog GSD, set a new record at her second competition. She also does Schutzhund, Rally, I think has her CGC. Just a really nice dog whether it's high level competition or "just" being a well behaved pet.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I will come back on later, hopefully with pictures and then some links about temperament - like Liesje said, dogs that are totally uncared for, not socialized and walk around like no big deal and the opposite. You can train and work and it becomes something that isn't as noticeable, and the dog is much happier though.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Also I think the "abuse" card becomes like an excuse. I could say that Coke was "abused" because he has never liked people reaching over his head, and to this day will duck if you try to pet his head, but if people ask me if he was abused I just say I don't know, he doesn't like having his head touched like that. I don't want his past to limit his future. I do know he wasn't receiving the best of care but I can't say it was abuse or neglect without knowing the motivations (or lack thereof) of the previous owner, which I do not know. Instead I just say that the previous owners couldn't keep him, but we gave him a fresh start. He's done CGC (twice), agility classes, gone herding twice, tried dock diving (OK so he won't jump but he likes to be plopped in the pool and swim around!), goes in parades. On Friday he's wearing his Santa outfit and visiting a second grade classroom. Now I could say "oh I think he was abused" and let him get away with all his bad habits and coddle him at home but I have expectations for dogs that live in my house and I see it more as respect to expect the same from a dog with a muddy past. I *know* he can be an awesome dog despite his past, and he is.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

That brings up another part of this: As I mentioned, if she was abused, exactly how far can the dog recover? I mean, we all have heard of dog fighting dogs (bait) that have been rehabbed into pet homes showing no signs of abuse.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Depends on the dog's genetics!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

LOL Lies! 

This is exactly my point. 

So...Lies had awesome posts, but I know there must be more?? C'mon people! Think of the children! (er, well, dog....)


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm no expert, but this sentence has stood out to me in your opening post:


> My friend, *who admits she hasn't done any training with her*, thinks it's all because she was "abused" and a rescue


She needs to step up  NILIF because a dog that may be genetically fearful or timid or whatever will benefit from knowing that they don't have to control every situation....their handler has the world under control so the weight will not be on the dog to feel the need to be 'on' all the time. 
The owner should also get the dog in a training class so the dog can grow confidence(though it may be too much so a class that is geared for this type personality if possible) Confidence building is very hard to do with certain dogs, but should still be attempted. If it is found that the dog can't handle the stress of group class, maybe private lessons just to get the dog out of the home environment, but in another that is ok after a few visits...that will build the dogs confidence. Playing on agility equipment or doing some nosework along with fun obedience exercises.
Genetics can be managed, but the owner should understand that things are what they are with this dog, and learning how to manage the dogs limits is what matters most of all. 

I found that out with Onyx. She is what she is, there is little I can do other than manage her, keep her happy and healthy in her world. No reason to take her out and try to change who she isn't because it just would be a constant battle. But Onyx feeds off aggression/fight so she is a different personality. Anytime there is excitement or possibly a fight to be had, she's all in. She would rather fight than flee...even though it is possibly fear based.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am having trouble gathering my thoughts but have a response I emailed to myself to look at tomorrow! 

But - like Coke, my Ava does not like the top of her head touch. When we were in a training class a lady tried to pet her and she pulled away and she asked me if Ava was abused - I started to say I didn't know but the trainer was like, "NO! She just doesn't like rude people who think they can pet the top of her head before she knows them." :rofl: 

What I do think that is important is that whether you are willing to admit that a dog can have genetic issues with their temperament - fear, anxiety, etc, or if it is a result of abuse, you can DO things about it and for the dog. 

You can't change their past, or their underlying genetics, but you can train, shape and manage so that the dog - regardless of the why - has a better (good/great) quality of life.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Very few dogs want a hand going over their head...especially the hand of a stranger. Too bad more people don't understand canine communication better! Sideways approach and under the chin or ear area is always appreciated more than a frontal "let me pet or pat your head". 
This link may be of help for your friend to understand a bit better, and also Turid Rugaas's site about canine communication.
Elem. of Temperament
http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/Elements of Temperament.htm#4.2. Life With a Weak Nerved Dog


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes I agree with the NILIF. However, regardless of the fact that she is a GREAT person, she is a pet owner who doesn't think that all pets need to be obedience trained the way we tend to do here on the forum. Sassy does have good recall (as far as I've seen) and she is a dog that doesn't tend to leave her side, so this is good enough for my friend. 

She may view this thread, so I hope I don't get into hot water here, but she does tend to humanize her animals. 

I have suggested training (as in classes, private, etc) many times to her, but I doubt this will happen. I have loaned her my Turid Rugaas books, my Patricia McConnell books, my Ian Dunbar, my canine behavior photography books....etc but she didn't read them. 

The thing is, last night I was at a wonderful party with her, and poor Sassy (there was about 7 of us in the house besides her and her dad, and we all are very familiar to Sassy) peed several times when we first got there, without anyone even petting her. She puts her head down like she's very afraid, even though I squatted down, let her come to me, didn't look at her (I looked sideways), just let her sniff my hand, made my kids walk in an arc.....towards the very end of the evening, she did play tug with my 14 year old daughter. My friend and I had a conversation about her being fearful, and she's convinced it's not genetic, it's because she was in a rescue and possibly abused before she got her. I said I thought after 4 years of loving (and spoiling) I thought it was more genetic, then she brought up that with her understanding of genetics she didn't feel that at all.



Heh! You were both posting while I was typing (and managing my own pup!)


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Also, I should note that I've known her longer than she's had this dog, so the dog has "known" me for the 4 years.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

@Lies....Thank You, ThankYou, Thank You!....very good explanation in your initial post. Succinct and to the point. There are no absolutes to any situation, but I have found your explanation to be consistent over many many years.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I only have personal experience to share ... I've had two dogs over the years who may be an example of what you're asking. 

Yukon had been severly abused before his breeder got him back and I ended up with him (long story). Despite the beatings, being shot with a bb gun, tied to a tree during a Manitoba winter, and finally being abandoned, after he joined my family he regained his confidence rather quickly where nothing bothered him that wouldn't bother a normal dog. Yukon earned a CD, HIC, CGC and TT titles.

On the other had I had another dog who I feel had heriditary shyness ... his father was also shy, both had fear type aggression, everything scared them. It took hundreds of hours of all types of training and exposure to many different situations to get Echo to act like a "normal" dog. I'm proud to say Echo earned CDX, HIC, and CGC titles and was confident enough that people thought I was kidding when I related what we had to do go thru to get him to that point.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

This may not help the OP, but within the context of this thread this article may interest to those who like a scientific approach. Here there is the heredability to many behavioral traits.

http://www.vetsuisse.unibe.ch/unibe...2/e90449/e90455/files90467/ruefenacht_ger.pdf


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Liesje said:


> I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).


Yes - all of this! I realized I was struggling in responding because I am not sure what is the desired outcome here?

If she learns that dogs can be genetically fearful, will she then commit to good training and management for the dog? If so, will she go to a place like the Yahoo shy k9 group and read the archives? 

If not, let's go with the abuse thing and get her hooked in to the Yahoo sky k9 group and read the archives? Because that is the thing - no matter the cause, what you do is what will either make the dog feel better or worse.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Also I think the "abuse" card becomes like an excuse.


If I had a nickel for every person who thinks their dog was "abused", I could retire. Many of my clients have "second-hand" dogs, and any show of fearful, nervous, submissive, or aggressive behavior is chalked up to "abuse", and therefore excused (or even coddled). Drives me crazy.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Liesje said:


> I guess I would ask your friend....what does she want? What is her goal for the dog? If she wants the dog to act differently than she does now, then she will have to be willing to make some changes in how the dog is managed. If she's not willing to do that, then I don't know what else to say. Your original post made me think that your friend thinks she can change the dog's behaviors and reactions (if they are not genetic) but if she is not doing any training, NILIF, reading your books, etc then I don't get how she expects the dog to change? If she does not agree that the dog might just be shy and soft genetically, then why is she not proving her theory by changing her dog into a more confident dog? You can't on one hand blame a dog's weakness on how it was originally raised and then on the other hand not agree that if it is not genetics at play the dog cannot be trained and socialized to be a more confident dog....see what I'm saying? It just sounds like an excuse, blaming the dog's past but being unwilling to help shape the dog's future.... You know how *I* feel about the role of genetics but like I said originally, there's usually a lot of "room" on a dog's genetic spectrum for the owner to train and socialize what behavior they want and the things that cannot be changed can at least be managed so that the impact on the dog is minimal (ie, not having the dog in a situation where it feels overwhelmed and pees several times, for starters).


I'm not sure how she acts bothers my friend. Personally, I think I would at least try to manage the submissive peeing, but she is used to cleaning that up, and that's her prerogative. 

My only worry myself is, the two of us like to hike together and Sassy will try to bite Rocket if he's too close. He is very even-tempered and has responded extremely well, but it's stressful for me obviously to try to manage it, which means we possibly can't hike them together anymore.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Look at how many dogs in shelters/rescue have been abused or neglected....and they are absolutely normal and loyal to whoever....that is genetics at its finest.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Agreed!!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't think your friend knows what this dog is capable of in terms of its recovery. His genetics might be bad, yes -- but he might be capable of _way_ more than he's presently displaying. I wouldn't want the "bad genetics" label to be an easy out for a person who hasn't at least _tried _training and confidence-boosting exercises.

"Once abused, always fearful" is a bunch of hooey. Many dogs are resilient in different ways. Some respond brilliantly to an opportunity to build up self-confidence and solid routines but languish without them. 

Submissive peeing is easy to manage with GSDs -- I have no idea whether Dalmatians communicate as clearly, but my guess is that they likely do: GSD ear position telegraphs the submissiveness before they pee (the ears are down and back). Once you figure out how to read the ears, when they are in "I'm going to pee" position, ignore the dog! Period. Don't look at it. Don't talk to it. Calmly walk to the back yard and let it follow. Then tell it to go potty. When it does, cheerfully praise the dog for doing the right thing in the right place, and the ears will pop back up and all will be well as the confidence will have returned. Rinse and repeat. Over time, the piddling sometimes becomes less and less when managed this way (at least, that's what happened with my rescue who was a piddler--and we almost _never _had to clean it up in the house once we learned to read her ears). 

As for the rest: I have never yet met a shy, fearful, or shut down rescue that didn't benefit to some degree from a good, basic obedience course. Here's why: their world becomes predictable. They understand what you want them to do, and they're happy to no longer be confused. People suddenly start making sense to them, as you'll be talking the same language. They start to feel good about themselves for always knowing the right thing to do. I've seen several of them go through a transformation in their whole bearing and expression over the course of a good class -- like they're coming alive and finding their self-confidence for the first time. It's a _magical_ thing to see happening in a rescued dog's face and bearing. There is sometimes one special moment, often around week 3-4 in a course, when the head comes up, the shoulders square, the eyes illuminate, and they physically shake off the fearful shadow that had been trailing them. They look at the handler with an expression that says "I'm loving this. This is who I really am!" _That'_s when the spectacular dog in them finally comes out, and the trauma and drama of the past gets left behind. It's almost like the training gives them space to find their true selves. 

Maybe this dog has bad genetics. Maybe he's capable of a whole lot more. It's got to be worth trying at least, right?


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh, I totally agree!! I also think she DOES have a routine in place, even if it's not one that is obedience-oriented. I think every single dog benefits from training. I think some people are more naturally gifted than others also. FWIW, none of us were paying any attention to the dog at all when she peed a couple of times. We were all saying Hi and hanging coats up, etc. In fact, the second pee, she had gone up the half flight of stairs and no one was even near her. 

I think she is an extremely smart and trainable dog and could benefit much from a class(es).


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## Kath & Clan (Jun 6, 2012)

Sorry if I end up double posting, dial up seems to be objecting to all of the holiday web traffic! Cassie is an anxiety basket case which presents as fear aggression toward people. I do not believe that she was abused by her previous owners or anyone else. Temperament/mental stability is a genetic issue , just as seen in humans and one of the big reasons that the forum members are so anti byb. Anti-anxiety meds helps her tremendously with being able to settle and to learn. She has passed her CGC twice exept for allowing a stranger to touch her/groom her. I take her with me and introduce and expose her to as much as I can that I feel that I can manage for her safety and for other people's. 

Kathie


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