# Blues/Livers



## Sarah79

I have shown dogs (not GSD's) since I was about 12 years old. I have never bred a litter, as there are already great breeders out there I can buy from lol. I also do rescue work and work with dogs that are hard to place. Recently we decided to get another GSD as our passed about a year ago. A friend of ours offered a puppy from an accidental litter since we were looking for a pet. The litter was not going to be registered as there were only a couple pups and they were pet quality. We chose the female with the temperament that we liked. And as it turned out, she has an odd coloring. In the light, her black looks more liver. And in the shade, or indoors, her black looks blue? She will be spayed and I do NOT promote breeding for "rare" colors that are serious faults. And we plan to use her in Search and Rescue if she has the ability, and we also will do obedience and hopefully schutzhund. My question is, is it possible she ended up with BOTH the liver and blue genes? Is that even possible?


----------



## LaRen616

Hello, welcome and congrats!

Where are the pictures?????


----------



## katieliz

the dilute gene manifests as either blue or liver i believe (but do not know for absolute sure and don't have time to research it). i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong. i have a blue girl, she was powder blue when she was born, her black now appears steel blue and her tan is more of a carmel. her ears have opalescent rims.

welcome to the board!


----------



## abakerrr

In a black dog, there is the possibility of a color dilution, making the black wash out to a blue hue. In a liver dog, there can also be the possibility of a dilution, but that would give the dog an isabella hue. There cant be a liver dog with a blue diluted coat and vice versa. The best way to tell is to look at the dog's nose leather... That will give you an immediate indication as to what the base color is. 

Here is an aussie website but its the same idea/ principal. 
Dilute Aussies


----------



## Chris Wild

Blue dilutes black to a steel gray color. Liver dilutes it to a chocolate brown color (same as chocolate labs, they are actually liver dilute black labs). Light on hair can play games and make things look different depending on the lighting conditions. Looking at the leather of the nose and eye rims will provide the best guess. If the nose is gray, it's a blue. If the nose is brown, it's a liver.

Yes it IS possible for a dog to have both blue and liver dilutes. They are not mutually exclusive and can be inherited together, though it would be very uncommon in GSDs as there just aren't enough dilute genes floating around in the gene pool for them to double up like that very often. When that happens, the black pigment on the dog comes out a lighter, mousy brownish gray color. Same color as an isabella/fawn Doberman which is the same genetics, a double dilute. Just happens more in Dobes as blues and reds (liver) are more common in that breed, so genes doubling up is more common too.


----------



## Chris Wild

This website has some good info on the dilute colors in GSDs, including some photos of double dilute (fawn) GSDs.

BlueDogs - Find Information about Blue, Liver and Isabella colored German Shepherd Dogs!


----------



## Andaka

What Chris said.


----------



## Freestep

Pictures needed! 

Don't Weimaraners have both liver and blue dilute genes? Or is theirs a whole 'nuther color?


----------



## abakerrr

Chris Wild said:


> Blue dilutes black to a steel gray color. Liver dilutes it to a chocolate brown color (same as chocolate labs, they are actually liver dilute black labs). Light on hair can play games and make things look different depending on the lighting conditions. Looking at the leather of the nose and eye rims will provide the best guess. If the nose is gray, it's a blue. If the nose is brown, it's a liver.
> 
> Yes it IS possible for a dog to have both blue and liver dilutes. They are not mutually exclusive and can be inherited together, though it would be very uncommon in GSDs as there just aren't enough dilute genes floating around in the gene pool for them to double up like that very often. When that happens, the black pigment on the dog comes out a lighter, mousy brownish gray color. Same color as an isabella/fawn Doberman which is the same genetics, a double dilute. Just happens more in Dobes as blues and reds (liver) are more common in that breed, so genes doubling up is more common too.


Im not sure if the terminology is whats confusing here but the liver color isn't a "dilution" of black, just a difference in base color. Black (BB) and Black + liver-factored (Bb) both present as dogs with a black hue to their coat (such as your typical GSD). Liver dogs (bb) present with a chocolate color to their coat but this is recessive, so it only occurs when two copies of the gene are present in a breeding (meaning, both parents are either liver or liver-factored carriers).

Separate from the base coat color gene modifier, the dilution of these two colors can happen when the dilution gene modifier is present. This affects the eumelanin pigment cells, giving the black or liver (which ever the dog genetically has) a warmer, diluted tone. The isabella color isn't a double dilute but rather a dilute of the red or liver base color, just as the blue color is a dilute of the black base color.


----------



## Chris Wild

abakerrr said:


> Im not sure if the terminology is whats confusing here but the liver color isn't a "dilution" of black, just a difference in base color. .


You're correct that it isn't technically a dilution. The blue gene dilutes black pigment. The liver gene blocks the formation of black pigment. So they work on black pigment somewhat differently from a scientific standpoint. But in laymens terms they are both dilutes. 

I don't know what you mean about liver being a "difference in base color". There is no true gene for liver in dogs. Not in the sense of regular color genetics. Liver is always a recessive modifier of black, so genetically liver dogs are black dogs with modifiers that turn the black pigment liver. This is why liver/red/chocolate/etc.. colored dogs of any breed don't ever have black leather. A liver dog will not have any black pigment anywhere. Everything that would be black if the dog didn't carry liver will be chocolate brown in a liver dog. 



abakerrr said:


> Black (BB) and Black + liver-factored (Bb) both present as dogs with a black hue to their coat (such as your typical GSD). Liver dogs (bb) present with a chocolate color to their coat but this is recessive, so it only occurs when two copies of the gene are present in a breeding (meaning, both parents are either liver or liver-factored carriers).


Yes, both blue and liver are recessive, and two genes must be present for the dog to express as blue or liver.



abakerrr said:


> Separate from the base coat color gene modifier, the dilution of these two colors can happen when the dilution gene modifier is present. This affects the eumelanin pigment cells, giving the black or liver (which ever the dog genetically has) a warmer, diluted tone. The isabella color isn't a double dilute but rather a dilute of the red or liver base color, just as the blue color is a dilute of the black base color.


Yes, Isabella is considered a dilution of red (liver). But to be red/liver in the first place, the dog possesses genes that block black pigment from expressing as black, and turn it red(liver) in the first place. Hence them often being termed "double dilutes". The blue and liver genes work somewhat different in how they effect black pigment, but either way the black has been changed twice (once to red/liver, then diluted further with the blue gene) the end result in appearance of the dog is the same. An Isabella is a red (black pigment turned red through one set of recessive genes) further diluted with blue. Same end result. 

I think we're saying the same thing, just a slight difference in terminology.


----------



## Sarah79

Wow, this is all good info. Thanks so much! I'll post a couple picks, but like I said, it's really hard to see in the pictures. When people meet her in person they clearly see it, but when I send a pic they just think she's black lol. Also, her nose leather is black and so are her eye rims. She has silver and tan like her father. But neither the sire or dam have any other odd coloring.


----------



## Chris Wild

Looks like a regular black/tan pup to me, and if her leather is indeed black then that is what she is. I don't see any evidence of liver or blue, much less both, in those pics.

The reddish tint to the coat in the sunlight is one of two things; sun fading or more likely the hair is dying because she's getting ready to shed her puppy coat and black hair will often take on that reddish hue when it's shedding out.


----------



## abakerrr

Chris Wild said:


> I don't know what you mean about liver being a "difference in base color". There is no true gene for liver in dogs. Not in the sense of regular color genetics. Liver is always a recessive modifier of black, so genetically liver dogs are black dogs with modifiers that turn the black pigment liver. This is why liver/red/chocolate/etc.. colored dogs of any breed don't ever have black leather. A liver dog will not have any black pigment anywhere. Everything that would be black if the dog didn't carry liver will be chocolate brown in a liver dog.
> 
> I think we're saying the same thing, just a slight difference in terminology.


Yeah, we are.


----------



## msvette2u

Chris Wild said:


> Looks like a regular black/tan pup to me, and if her leather is indeed black then that is what she is. I don't see any evidence of liver or blue, much less both, in those pics.
> 
> The reddish tint to the coat in the sunlight is one of two things; sun fading or more likely the hair is dying because she's getting ready to shed her puppy coat and black hair will often take on that reddish hue when it's shedding out.


I agree. She doesn't look like a liver or blue.


----------



## Konotashi

Not a blue or liver.

If you're not sure, look at the nose and lips. On regular dogs, they will be black. (Even on white dogs). If it is a blue/liver dog, the nose will be either blue or tan leather. 

Here's an example. Notice how his nose is tan/brown instead of black. 
Browsing Photography on deviantART

See how his saddle is a chocolate color.
Kaiser by Kauri on deviantART

Liver/blue is just a dilution of the black, so everything that should be black is either blue or liver.


----------



## Freestep

Chris Wild said:


> The reddish tint to the coat in the sunlight is one of two things; sun fading or more likely the hair is dying because she's getting ready to shed her puppy coat and black hair will often take on that reddish hue when it's shedding out.


Yes, that's what I was thinking too. You can't always judge color very well by puppy fuzz, but if her nose, lips and eye rims are black, then she doesn't have the liver or the blue gene. From the photos, she looks like a typical black and tan pup.


----------



## wildo

Chris Wild said:


> The reddish tint to the coat in the sunlight is one of two things; sun fading or more likely the hair is dying because she's getting ready to shed her puppy coat and black hair will often take on that reddish hue when it's shedding out.


Sarah79- to see just how red the dry hair can be, check out these pictures: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/breed-standard/170603-red-hue-black-tan-dog.html


----------



## iBaman

so sheldon would be liver dog if he wasn't white? (if I gathered this info right...)


----------



## Konotashi

iBaman said:


> so sheldon would be liver dog if he wasn't white? (if I gathered this info right...)


I've seen whites that carry for another color. For example, there was a white dog with yellow eyes and a blue nose - white dog masking blue. 

It's hard to tell from the pic, but that looks more pink than the tan leather livers have. 
I know some WGSDs get pink noses in the winter.


----------



## iBaman

It's pink on top, but the nose itself is definitely not black. Here's a pic of his nose (haha, it's the best pic of it, don't judge xD)









and here you can see his paws aren't really black either (I don't take many pics of his paws)










so idk. or care really, I just find genetics fascinating.


----------



## Rott-n-GSDs

Looks like typical white GSD "snow nose" to me. Is it always that color, or does it darken in the summer? 

P.S. He looks a lot like my Nova.


----------



## iBaman

this is when we first got him, which was in august (so this is probably september). when does snow nose usually start to show?

And they so do!! =3 Sometimes I see other dogs, and I can't help but wonder if they're in sheldon's linage =3


----------



## Sarah79

LOL that's funny that I'm wrong on both counts  Thanks for all the help though. I love color and genetics and it's always fun to learn. That makes sense that the reddish hue is the dead coat coming out. But I will stick by her blue tint. It doesn't show up well in the photo, but when next to her sibs or our Aussie that is a black tri, he black looks like a really dark blue. But she does have the black nose etc so maybe it's just her black. At any rate, she is one heck of a pup and we couldn't be more pleased with her! Oh, since I'm on here.....Someone told me she is too heavy for a puppy? I like my pups heavier than the adults when they are this young. But what do the rest of you think?


----------



## iBaman

larger breeds should be kept skinnier so it's easier on their joints. ESPECIALLY since the gsd is so prone to joint issues.


----------



## Rahrah

I love this site for all the unusual GSD colours
K9-Pines.com: German Shepherds


----------



## Rahrah

iBaman said:


> larger breeds should be kept skinnier so it's easier on their joints. ESPECIALLY since the gsd is so prone to joint issues.


Agree 100%


----------



## Sarah79

iBaman said:


> larger breeds should be kept skinnier so it's easier on their joints. ESPECIALLY since the gsd is so prone to joint issues.


does she look too heavy? (She is 7wks this week.)


----------



## nitemares

I dont think she looks heavy for a 7 week old pup, but I personally wouldnt worry about the heaviness until maybe 3 months old. Usually a GSD pup will start slimming down and look more toned anyways at that age. But that's just my personal opinion and observation.


----------



## abakerrr

iBaman said:


> so sheldon would be liver dog if he wasn't white? (if I gathered this info right...)


No, your dog appears to be genetically black. I'm pretty sure that the white in WGSDs acts as a masking gene that covers up the dogs true base color (whether it's sable, b&t, etc). On a lot of the white dogs, black nose pigment fades to that pinkish hue because of an enzyme breakdown (tyrosinase). A snow nose seems pretty common in WGSDs, as well as other light-colored breeds, but I'm not sure what the interaction is between coat color and fading nose pigment? Anyone, thoughts?


----------



## iBaman

nitemares said:


> I dont think she looks heavy for a 7 week old pup, but I personally wouldnt worry about the heaviness until maybe 3 months old. Usually a GSD pup will start slimming down and look more toned anyways at that age. But that's just my personal opinion and observation.


this. I didn't realize how young she was xD



abakerrr said:


> No, your dog appears to be genetically black. I'm pretty sure that the white in WGSDs acts as a masking gene that covers up the dogs true base color (whether it's sable, b&t, etc). On a lot of the white dogs, black nose pigment fades to that pinkish hue because of an enzyme breakdown (tyrosinase). A snow nose seems pretty common in WGSDs, as well as other light-colored breeds, but I'm not sure what the interaction is between coat color and fading nose pigment? Anyone, thoughts?


Yeah, that's what it does. I had no idea about why they get 'snow nose' though! that's cool to know! does snow nose disqualify them in white conformation? (not that I'm going to show him or anything.)


----------



## Whiteshepherds

iBaman said:


> does snow nose disqualify them in white conformation? (not that I'm going to show him or anything.)


From AWSA's breed standard: _A snow nose is acceptable but is not preferred. Deficiency of pigment is objectionable and dogs exhibiting faded or spotty pigmentation on nose, eye rims or lips should be faulted. Dogs exhibiting the total lack of pigment in the above named areas indicating possible albinism or those that definitely exhibit albinism (such as dogs with blue or pink eyes) must be disqualified._


----------



## iBaman

Hm, good to know. Are there albino german shepherds??


----------



## tessthebear

My boy's mammy was a blue sable and his daddy a black and tan. Four out of the fourteen litter turned out blue, others gold sable and the rest black and tan. My baby is a gold sable yet carries the blue genetic (-:
His half brother is a liver coat, his other a blue coat. I've been bashed on a previous forum for simply 'liking' and 'accepting' the colour. I just said 'Hey, I've got strawberry blonde hair - that's recessive, do I deserve to be ridiculed because I'm not up to standard?' Of course, that's only if you don't believe that gingers don't have souls


----------



## msvette2u

There's a difference between liking and accepting something and breeding specifically for it.


----------



## Andaka

msvette2u said:


> There's a difference between liking and accepting something and breeding specifically for it.


Exactly! All dogs deserve to be loved, but not all dogs should be bred.


----------



## Freestep

Rahrah said:


> I love this site for all the unusual GSD colours
> K9-Pines.com: German Shepherds


I just went to that site and... WOW those are some fugly dogs. I'm sorry. It has nothing to do with their color, either. Color is not that big a deal to me, and I actually think blue is rather pretty. But these dogs are sort of bizarre looking in their conformation. Lacking in proper GSD expression, some are overweight, appear soft, and many are unkempt looking. Of course many of us have dogs that look unkempt from time to time, but these are the pictures that were *chosen* to represent the kennel to the whole world? 

It just goes to show how things fall by the wayside when you breed FOR color.

Informative site, though. And of course, ugly animals are just as worthy of being loved as the most beautiful ones. But just because they are loved and happen to be a "rare" DQ color does not mean they should be bred.


----------



## tessthebear

After my last GSD had EPI which cut her lifespan, a good healthy dog was all I wanted  I agree breeding for colour, and primarily colour is very wrong. Good set of hips/elbows, temperament, five generation pedigree to prove health testing and a straight back did me. The colour? I chose last of course. I'm glad he's turned out a beautiful gold sable but I wouldn't love him any less if he was anything else. :wub:


----------



## alsatian5

*Liver GSD wanted*

I'm looking specifically for a liver GSD puppy, solid liver. I do NOT want this to be from a litter that's bred for color. Rather I want to adopt/pay for, your happy accident. In turn, your secret is safe with me and this little pup will live the life of Riley. If you are interested in contacting me, you can do so and then check my FB page to see how my dogs are treated. We have a year old dark sable GSD who does nosework, has her CGC and is beginning dog sports such as rally and low impact agility. We also have a 9 year old malamute. My liver GSD-mix rescue passed away last year at the age of 13+ and I miss the chocolate face and the green/yellow eyes, but I want it packaged in a working dog (preferably European lines, but not necessary) German Shepherd Dog. I don't breed, it will be spayed/neutered. And when I wrote puppy, I mean 6-8 weeks old since our malamute is aggressive towards anything but puppies...yet she has adopted our GSD who we got at 7 weeks and mothers her even though they are almost the same size...only a little puppy will work. I will travel anywhere to pick him/her up since I am against flying them alone in transport (at this age it can sit on my lap). I promise you, this dog will have a phenomenal life. Thank you. And please don't write to me about the dog not meeting conformation. I don't care and I am not promoting breeding for them by any means...but they do happen and I am willing to take one and give it a great life.


----------



## Konotashi

I've come across K9 Pine's website several times. Although I love the colors, their dogs are disgusting. THOSE kinds of breeders are one of the reasons why reputable breeders 'hate' the colors. They breed unhealthy, soft, oversized GSDs. They don't just go out of standard for the color, but also the temperament and everything else that makes the GSD what it is. They don't work their dogs, only one dog (from the last time I checked) has OFA done, and it's 'fair.' 

There's another breeder that I'm possibly looking into for a future puppy, though it may not be for my first GSD. She shows all of her dogs (the ones that can be, anyway), DM tests, OFA tests, etc. The disqualifying colors she breeds, she shows them in other venues, such as obedience. 
The only reason I don't want one of her puppies for my first GSD is because they're mostly American showlines, and I'm looking for a WL for my first dog.


----------



## kbella999

My girl Rusti is a liver. I didn't even know they had such a thing until I got her. I got her when she was 4 years old. I think she is the most beautiful girl ever. I tell her that she is so beautiful that she is a blonde and a brunette


----------



## alsatian5

Konotashi said:


> I've come across K9 Pine's website several times. Although I love the colors, their dogs are disgusting. THOSE kinds of breeders are one of the reasons why reputable breeders 'hate' the colors. They breed unhealthy, soft, oversized GSDs. They don't just go out of standard for the color, but also the temperament and everything else that makes the GSD what it is. They don't work their dogs, only one dog (from the last time I checked) has OFA done, and it's 'fair.'
> 
> There's another breeder that I'm possibly looking into for a future puppy, though it may not be for my first GSD. She shows all of her dogs (the ones that can be, anyway), DM tests, OFA tests, etc. The disqualifying colors she breeds, she shows them in other venues, such as obedience.
> The only reason I don't want one of her puppies for my first GSD is because they're mostly American showlines, and I'm looking for a WL for my first dog.


Yes I have been to that site several times and understand why people don't specifically set out to breed for this. I have been to other similar sites as well. Like I said, I just want to give a great home to a happy accident that still is entitled to a terrific life.


----------



## Konotashi

Livers are my absolute favorite color for GSDs (or any dog really...), but I can't deny the fact that most breeders who aim for the goal of producing 'rare' colors practice very poor breeding ethics.


----------



## Konotashi

alsatian5 said:


> Yes I have been to that site several times and understand why people don't specifically set out to breed for this. I have been to other similar sites as well. Like I said, I just want to give a great home to a happy accident that still is entitled to a terrific life.


This is what I'm hoping for. I doubt it'll happen (for my first dog anyway), but I would be the happiest person on the planet if a little oops liver popped out of a nice working line breeding.


----------



## alsatian5

Kabella, your pup is lovely!


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


----------



## krschua626

This is Archer, he will be 10 weeks on Wednesday. Both his parent's were black/tan.


----------



## alsatian5

*Wow*

He is magnificent! I really want one although I am leaning towards solid liver. He is gonna be a striking big boy! Please update your pictures when you can, I would love to watch this little fellow grow up. Were there any more livers in his litter?




krschua626 said:


> This is Archer, he will be 10 weeks on Wednesday. Both his parent's were black/tan.


----------



## GatorDog

krschua626 said:


> This is Archer, he will be 10 weeks on Wednesday. Both his parent's were black/tan.


Gorgeous! :wub:


----------



## Konotashi

krschua626 said:


> This is Archer, he will be 10 weeks on Wednesday. Both his parent's were black/tan.


Can I steal him from you?


----------



## carmspack

the OP's little pup looks like a regular black and tan gsd with puppy coat in transition. The fluff is dead and dry. New coat coming in should be glossy and strongly pigmented.
Light eyes are a fault in the breed . "owl" eyes - too yellow . The eye has to blend into the facial colour , not so much contrast , which is disturbing to the sheep it is supposed to be herding.


----------



## Freestep

carmspack said:


> the OP's little pup looks like a regular black and tan gsd with puppy coat in transition.


Your monitor may be off--that's definitely a liver!



> Light eyes are a fault in the breed . "owl" eyes - too yellow . The eye has to blend into the facial colour , not so much contrast , which is disturbing to the sheep it is supposed to be herding.


Light colored eyes come with the dilute coloring. But I remember reading that there is a correlation between light eyes and increased intelligence. Have no idea if there's any truth in it, but I do find that light colored eyes are more expressive--you can see pupil size more easily. 

I know it's a fault, but I find it quite striking and beautiful when I see light colored eyes in a dark face. To heck with the sheep. 

Not saying I want people to start breeding for light colored eyes, just that it's a fault I could live with.


----------



## Konotashi

Freestep said:


> Your monitor may be off--that's definitely a liver!


OP's dog is a black/tan. (First pics on second page). The pup that Alsatian posted is a liver, though.


----------



## Freestep

Oh, you're right--the OP's pup is black and tan--but that was posted back in December, so I forgot all about it.


----------



## krschua626

alsatian5 said:


> He is magnificent! I really want one although I am leaning towards solid liver. He is gonna be a striking big boy! Please update your pictures when you can, I would love to watch this little fellow grow up. Were there any more livers in his litter?


I did some research for you and turns out there was one other pup that was a liver. He was given to me by my aunt so all I know is his DOB and that his parents were both german shepherds. But here is a picture that she sent me, looks like someone's backyard .


----------



## gigijen22

*Our Newest Addition - Solid Liver*

We recently rescued a GSD and she is a solid liver. I had read about whites, blues, and livers, but it never occurred to me that 2 copies of the recessive solid patterning gene may be combined with 2 copies of the liver gene to produce a solid chocolate colored GSD. She is absolutely stunning, and just the sweetest baby! We're not sure of her age. The rescue group had her at one year old, but she was only 43 lbs and approx. 19-21 inches tall. She didn't have any puppy teeth yet but not all of her adult teeth had come in, either, and some were very tiny. Since we brought her home on July 31 (2012), she has gained weight and is now 60 lbs and significantly taller. We are estimating her birthday at 2/2/12. I guesstimate that she's approximately 23 inches. We have another female who is approximately 25" and 70 lbs, who happens to be white. We had both dogs at a softball game recently, and someone actually asked us if we dislike the traditionally colored GSDs. I was so impressed that she recognized them for what they are that I wasn't even offended. (And BTW, we love all colors of GSDs. It was just coincidence that after our white, we also ended up with a solid liver.)
On the subject of breeding for color: I see no problem with breeding for color, AS LONG AS it is the least important factor on the list. Temperament, health, and conformation should always come first in my opinion. If a breeder is trying for a certain color, even if the color is unacceptable to the AKC, I have no problem with that as long as the other considerations are given priority. Sure, if you want to produce livers or blues, the breeder would have fewer because they'd be limited to dogs that are excellent in temperament, health, and conformation. After all, Max Von Stephanitz himself said, "No good dog is a bad color." Right?

Gigijen22
Java, solid liver GSD, 2/2/12
Lily, solid white GSD, 12/11/09
Zeke, dark sable GSD mix, 9/15/98-6/10/10 R.I.P


----------



## krschua626

If you guys are interested, here are some pictures of my boy.


----------



## alsatian5

To Gigijen22: Lucky you! And a rescue at that...thank you!!! I still want one that's not specifically bred for because it seems that most that I've seen that are bred for color only, have other confirmation issues. Not that confirmation means much to me, I prefer working types but they just don't look like shepherds. The ones I've seen from 'normal' litters, look like GSDs in chocolate coats. Enjoy your little angel!


----------



## alsatian5

To Krschua266: so handsome. His eyes are striking. I'm waiting to find mine someday. Just gorgeous!!!


----------



## alsatian5

@Freestep. Agreed I like the light eyes too. Faults based on color alone were not a concern of Max von Stephanitz. And I gotta go by his intentions because that man bred the best all around dog on this planet. In my not so humble opinion!


----------



## chocsahoy

Sarah, i think your dog is possibly a faded black, a blue would have a blue nose,a liver would have a brown nose,
in order for a pup to be mixed with both colours it would have to be from parents who were both carriers of the blue and liver,it would then be an isabella.


----------



## shilorio

My Liver boy Elios <3


----------



## arycrest

iBaman said:


> Hm, good to know. Are there albino german shepherds??


A few years ago we had a poster on these boards who claimed she had an albino GSD ... she was a trouble maker and got banned so don't know if it was true or not. I've seen albino humans, pictures of albino deer, crows, etc. so I would say it's possible for any breed of dog to have an albino (certain types of albinism can produce blue eyes).
40 Amazing Albino Animals Pictures


----------



## arycrest

Now I have a question for the experts ....

Is there a way to tell the difference between a "snow nose" and a "liver" color ... the reason I ask is I've often wondered if my Yukon might have been a liver because of the color of his nose leather.

Yukon around 15 months old: 


Yukon shortly before his death:


----------



## gigijen22

*arycrest, I can help explain the difference between snow nose and white masking liver*

Arycrest, from the pics I'd say snow nose. A white making liver would have brownish pinkish eye rims and lips, in addition to the nose. Your dog appears to have black eyerims, and I can't see the lips. The eyes are also typically lighter. I have seen one white masking liver in person, and you could definitely tell it wasn't just snow nose by looking at her lips and the skin around her eyes.


----------



## CamoChikk

I would LOVE to have a liver pup!!! They're gorgeous! So are black ones and ones with dark masks.


----------



## penny wray

gigijen22 said:


> Arycrest, from the pics I'd say snow nose. A white making liver would have brownish pinkish eye rims and lips, in addition to the nose. Your dog appears to have black eyerims, and I can't see the lips. The eyes are also typically lighter. I have seen one white masking liver in person, and you could definitely tell it wasn't just snow nose by looking at her lips and the skin around her eyes.


I too have a 14week old pup with'the same looking nose and eyes but her eyerims are liver colored and her lips.
What is a snow nose?


----------



## Zeusthegsd143

penny wray said:


> I too have a 14week old pup with'the same looking nose and eyes but her eyerims are liver colored and her lips.
> What is a snow nose?


Your pup is a standard white gsd with a snow nose. Not liver Coloration. Snow now is something to so with the color changes when your pups gets cold I believe but I'm not an expert on nose pigments haha.


----------



## Cschmidt88

The "snow nose" aka black that recedes with age is a result of the recessive red gene.
This site has great information on coat genetics: This page touches on recessive red.
Dog Coat Colour Genetics


If a dog is expressing the liver gene, it is genetically impossible for the dog to have any black coat/skin pigment.


----------



## Breanne-93

This is my liver colored gsd, Copper! He's 7 months old


----------



## Liesje

I don't agree that a snow nose is something that happens with age and is recessive red. I've seen GSD puppies with snow nose and it *improves* with age (like, by the time they are 6-7 months old) and these puppies have no history of red, as they are from lines where liver or blue would have been culled from breeding.


----------



## JnnNicole

Hi!


Here is a picture of my liver male, Lucky. I wish I could somehow find out more information on him. The people we got him from "suddenly" couldn't remember anything about him, etc. I had to contact the mans ex wife and found out that he does have AKC papers and his parents are supposed to be IPO Champions. Not sure as to how true this is, but..Im trying to do everything I can to find the original owner. He was from the DFW area in Texas and was a police dog trainer. His original name was Lucky and he is just the BEST dog ever!


----------

