# Where have all the German Shepherds gone?



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I know we have had some discussions about this on the board regarding where the American's have taken the breed.

I just got an issue of The German Shepherd Quarterly. Admittedly, I have not spend the bucks on it before, but Minnie got her picture in an article so I signed up.

There is an article about "Back to Basics". Will the call be heard?? Is it too late??
H. Gleason starts off listing the dismal entries by GSDs in obedience, agility and conformation. She then goes on to mention the need to pay attention to size, health and longevity. She ends with, "We do not want to turn them into a Toy breed who only brings love and joy to their owners and are wonderful couch potatoes." 

V. Roye gives it a good go in her part of the Back to Basics section. She exhorts the members of the show fancy to begin to train their dogs in ANY endeavor beyond the minimums such as PT,CD, RN, etc. She states that until this occurs they will never understand what it takes to have an OTCH dog, a MACH dog, successful SAR dog or ScH III. 

I must say that as a person on the periphery for some 12 years I was so struck by the lack of training many breeders do and that the few titles earned were usually at the minimum level. 

She goes on to say that that all dogs will not be suited for all things, but that they should be good at something. More should be able to do the highest level of performance events. She mentions the lack of posts on lists regarding breedings to improve nerve strength? Drive? Biddability? ( I must admit, I do not often get to use this side of my vocabulary with many in the show community). Ms. Roye also calls out the genetic health problems that have become rampant. 

Her final point is a valid one, I think. The general public likes GSDs but they are not flocking to the parent cub or to buy show line dogs. The overall view of these dogs is negative.

Well, I have to say that I do agree there is and has been something rotten in Denmark for a long time. I am not sure there will be a pull out of the tail spin though. There don't seem to be many people breeding there who are interested in training or have knowledge of working attributes.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't know if this is any excuse but I've entered a LOT less trials with Nikon as I did with Kenya because of entry fees. I finally entered a Rally trial in a few weeks and it was $28 just for one Rally Novice entry! Plus the rising cost of gas, travel, sometimes taking off work to exhibit... An RAE title....now we're talking a title that probably costs $700 minimum in entry fees alone assuming the dog Qs *every* time. That is a huge reason why a lot of my titles are the "minimum" only. I like to spend my $$$ and energy on training because there's more bang for the buck and it's more fun. Nikon has been trained through RE since he was about a year old but why pay $28 per entry (which would be x9) when I could attend a great seminar for less, or pay several months SchH dues which cover three of my dogs at a time? I'd rather pay my Rally instructor $28 for an hour of her time setting up mock courses for good practice. This is probably not the answer you're looking for but this is my excuse!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, the fees have really risen. I used to take three dogs at a time to obed trials. Now, I don't. Okay, I figured out that was crazy but it is also too expensive today. I have not seen a rise in GSDs as the breed of choice in AKC events. I don't know why that is because my sense of things was that the European lines had gotten more popular. I thought I would be seeing more.

I can't imagine spending those RAE bucks, let alone RAEx! Hey, get that Nikon going on CD, CDX And UD!

Of course, the larger part of this is the lack of breeders showing or producing dogs that are acheiving titles at the highest levels as well as going around in conformation.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> She mentions the lack of posts on lists regarding breedings to improve nerve strength? Drive? Biddability?


Because the truth is that most show line people don't KNOW what nerve strength means :-/ Nor do they understand true drives. i do not know everything about drives and the like, but i do know more than (and pay attention to more than) a few people.

i constantly hear that people don't do performance beyond a basic level (if at all) because they're not interested, and the moment people suggest that a dog have a performance title at the back end of their name, they say "Well then we should hold the performance dog to the same standard", which is just...well...asinine. There could be (and there are) whites out there that are amazing, sound, working dogs, but they can't win in the conformation ring because of their color. People just don't want to work their dogs, and "this is a free country" so no one can make them.

They do not support performance. Heck, somebody complained about the Review this month because there weren't enough pictures of show dogs.

Way to show support...

We're in Raleigh, NC this week for the big cluster, and you know what? i spent $200 on what is little more than a glorified match. Out of the 11 dogs that were to show on Wednesday, 7 were exhibited. Today out of the 12 that were to be shown, 6 were exhibited. That is ONE point in bitches and 0 in dogs unless the judge gives the male BOW.

The specialties that are being held in conjunction with the all breed? Friday count? 4-12 (2-0) Saturday? 5-12 (1-0) The specialty made a 3 point major in bitches by TWO, and i am 99% sure that major will break.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

After two years of mostly being unemployed, my shows and training have gone way down. 

Now I am entering the two shows our club puts on, the Cleveland Classic, and the show here in town because they support the clubs that I am most interested in keeping going. Gas and everything does make a huge difference when you are working on nothing coming in. And entrance fees are too high. 

I also tried to move my whole crew in training and titling along, rather than focussing on one of them. 

At our show last weekend, I went and congradulated all the shepherd people that I noticed getting title legs or placing with their dogs. If you took all the dogs at the show, GSDs would not look like the #2 dog in popularity, but we were pretty well represented. What there was almost none of was labs. I was absolutely shocked that there was like one lab at the show -- the dog that jumped the fence and charged into a border collie -- now you might expect that from one of our bad boys, but from a lab? 

Anyhow, AKC obedience and rally seems to be geared more toward border collies, goldens, and shelties than working breeds. But maybe there are fewer in these venues because their owners have them in herding or in schutzhund, etc. Or maybe it is more that people who want to go for OTCH titles pick their breed on how successful the breed is in the venue. Kind of backwards, having a breed of dog and finding a good sport for it, as opposed to finding an appropriate breed for a particular sport.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Anyhow, AKC obedience and rally seems to be geared more toward border collies, goldens, and shelties than working breeds.


How so?


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

They are the ones in there doing it, they are the ones with huge numbers at every show I have ever been at. Maybe it is because they are so crazy that without some type of outlet, their dogs would not be livable. Maybe it is because they do very well at all the different parts. Maybe it is because there is no schutzhund-type venue for them. I do not know. Maybe it is their stepping stone to what they really want to do with the dogs -- agility.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I've been competing in AKC obedience forever and the GSD has never been well represented in obedience. We would occasionally get the breed people running over to try and get a really ugly CD and that's about it. They just have never been interested in the performance aspect and were pretty open about that. Obedience has always been predominantly goldens, shelties, and border collies.

As far as agility is concerned, there are very few GSDs competing in my area and those few are mostly workingline. There are more breed dogs that train in agility, but it's mostly just for fun as their dogs can't jump or run well enough to compete.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

> i constantly hear that people don't do performance beyond a basic level (if at all) because they're not interested, and the moment people suggest that a dog have a performance title at the back end of their name, they say "Well then we should hold the performance dog to the same standard", which is just...well...asinine. There could be (and there are) whites out there that are amazing, sound, working dogs, but they can't win in the conformation ring because of their color. People just don't want to work their dogs, and "this is a free country" so no one can make them.
> 
> They do not support performance. Heck, somebody complained about the Review this month because there weren't enough pictures of show dogs.


Well, this is a problem because they just want to play with the physical mechanics of the dog and loose the rest. I won 't say that showing is not hard because I am finding it exhausting and a lot to learn. I can't imagine not doing more with a dog though. Of all breeds to have taken such a strong stand basically forgetting the rest of the dog.

Well, the numbers are dismal and I keep hearing it all the time. Oh well, may never finish!

Selzer- what makes the venue more for other breeds? I haven't really thought about that. 

I don't have the numbers but I really think GSDs used to better represented, in obedience at least.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> They are the ones in there doing it, they are the ones with huge numbers at every show I have ever been at. Maybe it is because they are so crazy that without some type of outlet, their dogs would not be livable. Maybe it is because they do very well at all the different parts. Maybe it is because there is no schutzhund-type venue for them. I do not know. Maybe it is their stepping stone to what they really want to do with the dogs -- agility.


In your OP: _"Anyhow, AKC obedience and rally seems to be geared more toward border collies, goldens, and shelties than working breeds."_

I thought you meant the exercises in rally and obedience favored other breeds.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

> Well, *this is a problem* because they just want to play with the physical mechanics of the dog and loose the rest.


Yes, it is a problem, but i am not going to change anybody's mind that has been in the breed longer than i have been alive. instead i focus on instilling the idea that a dog should do performance work in addition to conformation with new exhibitors. Much easier to steer the new people in the perf direction than the "old guard".


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have found it challeging to keep the GSDs interested in the repetitive nature of comp obedience. Some of those other breeds don't bore with all the reptitions so fast. But, I have been able to be fairly competitive. I know I see many Shepherds working slow and sorta sloppy, so I work to not have that happen. I see how the mindset of those other breeds makes them suited.

But, there is herding or tracking or agility or schutzhund....

The old guard is that....old and guardy. I wouldn't want to try that change. But, perhaps some of some could begin to make gains. Nocturne evidently has done something in another direction.

Did they really think they could continue this package of "it is a GSD in name and it takes a big step"?


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

i have found it challenging to keep ME interested in the repetitive nature of competition obedience, LOL! i prefer fast paced venues that aren't so bloody nitpicky, like agility.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

LOL. Comp obed is brutal boring isn't it? At training, people think my friend and I must be smoking something but we are actually trying to avoid being bored out of our gourd with it!


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

it is! And i don't appreciate people flipping out on me because my dog sat slightly crooked and i don't care. it's too rigid, and if you're not striving for absolute perfection in that venue, it's not very welcoming.

My entry fees go to agility and herding training


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I prefer Rally. I have done some obedience, but I do not find it very fun. Rally is quicker paced and more interesting. 

Wow, next we are going to watch the five minute out of sight downs. Oooh! Oh no, the sheltie went down. tick tick tick tick tick. 

I am thinking about going through CDX with Heidi after we finish her RE. Just to do it once. I do not think I will ever get through for a utility dog. One of my puppies from Joy's litters is doing forced retrieves now.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I find Novice dreadful. LOL. What is it.....80 points in heeling?!

Open is more fun for the dogs and me. Running, jumping, retrieving! Get through Novice, might as well go on and have some fun! I trained my last girl through UD but I was slow at it and she got arthritic. I am trying to push full steam ahead to get to it with Soleil. I now start teaching Utility while working up that darn heeling for Novice. It is less boring and dogs like it.

You could train with me! I am perfectly happy praising your "you will pass" performance if that is what you want! My training partner so much about the points. The good thing is you can approach it either way.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Samba said:


> LOL. Comp obed is brutal boring isn't it?


ah no, not really. And my dogs don't find it boring either. We don't drill, we don't do the same things every day, (heck we don't train every day), and the ratio of play to work is pretty high. Works fine for us!


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> I am thinking about going through CDX with Heidi after we finish her RE. Just to do it once. I do not think I will ever get through for a utility dog.


Oh come on, give Utility a try....THAT'S where the fun and real challenge is! If you get to the point where your dog truly understands Utility, that's a pretty big accomplishment. And there are no stays.....

My dogs LOVE go-outs and directed jumping....it's certainly Mike's favorite exercise!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I get bored easily! I never stayed in any field of nursing longer than 5 years. I am so much, OK saw that enough, time to move on. Obedience begins to take on that feel for me too. I would like to now train narcotic dogs for awhile....

Jack of all trades and master of none, I am afraid. Frans warned me I would be that, but a personality is hard to change.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Well, having bred, trained, and titled a champion/Utility Dog, I know how much work it is to do both. Keno already had his CDX (3 shows -- 3 firsts) when he finished his Championship, and finished his UD with 2 firsts and a third placing (and sveral NQ's along the way). At one point in my training schedule I had a Novice level dog, an Open level dog, and a Utility level dog. My health won't allow me to do that any more. I now have one dog that I hope to do well with in Obedience (I'm not sure that I can do herding anymore and am sure that agility is out). He is 3/4 American show lines and 1/4 DDR.

Part of the problem is that the show people always saw my dogs as "performance dogs" and the performance people saw my dogs as "show dogs". And neither side would give them the respect that they deserved. 

I applaud Helen Gleason for her zeal, but she is like a reformed alcoholic preaching to the drunks. Her breeding program many years ago included *Ch. Nocturne's Hale of Krisselhof*












a fairly extreme dog that went Select at the National many times.

Vickie Roye also has deep roots in the specialty show world and has only in the past several years become interested in training dogs. Vickie is a member of a SAR dog unit in Northern Mississippi with her Border Collie, Bet. I believe that she has become involved with the German show line dogs.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, these are long time immersed in the specialty folks. I am not aware of where the impetus came from. No doubt a Ch.with higher obed titles was not the norm when you did that! 

I think it was Helen I heard on a tape saying the Am. Dogs could do schutzhund but they just aren't raised that way ( a few years ago). I was pretty stumped at the lack of acknowledgement of the role of genetics.Perhaps she found out as she has added German lines.

Back in the day, anyone having great specialty success had to drink the extremity kool-aid, I would think. I remember when I first started going to shows, I couldn't watch males. It is still funny when my friend reminds me how I had to excuse myself so as not to have apoplexy right there.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I cannot believe that Helen Gleason and Vickie Roye are "bashing" the American showlines. Imagine them having the nerve to question the nerve strength and the correctness of these dogs. I know several suspects have gotten really annoyed at me for saying these same things many times in the past. You see these people have "Street Cred" in the specialty ring and all breed ring, so why would they bash the breed like that. Could it be that I wasn't bashing, but merely stating some things too painful for some to admit.....NAH!! that couldn't be the case. I'm so confused:help:.


----------



## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

I was surprised when I decided on a GSD as my next dog and planned to do Obed. how many people cautioned me to be careful because so many GSD's have temp. problems they would say, then when I looked around I noticed how few I saw at shows, it didnt' stop me though Frank is 10 months and my goal is an OTCH someday among other things.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, Cliff, you know I never accused you of being the basher. I have in my own mind labelled you a dog lover. I have found that the general "dog person" does not have it in for certain lines or types or activities, but does have the dog's interest at heart. I could be wrong in ascribing this to you, as I don't really know!

It is no doubt best if the rumble comes from within the ranks. Outsiders are easily labelled as bashers or without credibility. When you are going under for the third time in the pool, someone surely will speak up. 

As for the sobering up, it may be too late. Perhaps there is a twelve step program for this thing where we create the shell of a dog to esteem and the essence of the animal be darned. 

At this point, schutzhund seems far off. I don't know what could be salvaged or added to improve. Maybe about anything now! I like the idea to pick something you are going to try to have your dogs be good at.... something, anything.... and begin to select for traits. Workable, functional traits.... wouldn't it be loverly?


----------



## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> I cannot believe that Helen Gleason and Vickie Roye are "bashing" the American showlines. Imagine them having the nerve to question the nerve strength and the correctness of these dogs. I know several suspects have gotten really annoyed at me for saying these same things many times in the past. You see these people have "Street Cred" in the specialty ring and all breed ring, so why would they bash the breed like that. Could it be that I wasn't bashing, but merely stating some things too painful for some to admit.....NAH!! that couldn't be the case. I'm so confused:help:.


Cliff, Cliff, Cliff...don't you know it always has to be THEIR "idea," not someone elses?! You just don't know a thing......


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

cliffson1 said:


> I cannot believe that Helen Gleason and Vickie Roye are "bashing" the American showlines. Imagine them having the nerve to question the nerve strength and the correctness of these dogs.


Gosh, Cliff, actually you so shook me with this statement this morning that I now have to find my glasses and magazine to be sure it was not a dream.
Sometimes my old age gets the best and I don't read articles with understanding!


----------



## tierra nuestra (Sep 8, 2010)

reply to sambas first thread-:thumbup: the squeaky wheel gets the grease.If enough people make enough noise someones got to listen.Take this forum right here who is full of passionate people that truly love the breed and probably understands it more than most showline breeders.How many members are on here?Enough to have a bit of sway on how things are done I am thinking.Look whats happened in the UK after that documentary spilled the beans.The KC there has changed a whole slew of rules and regulations and has even created an acredited breeder program to change the way some breeders work(rigorous health testing and titles)The close inbreeding was addressed I believe as well.
The KC made a choice because all eyes were on them and someone made enough of a stink to really tip the scales.Why not here?Why sit back and watch the extinction of a wonderful working breed?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I know the biggest cause for lack of participation in performance events is a total lack of interest, and in many cases even basic understanding of why it is important to test a dog at least minimally in these areas. But I do have to wonder how just plain unfriendly the venues can be may deter those who might be interested in even trying. I don't mean so much from an environment or people standpoint. Sure some can seem cold and unfriendly, but that's certainly not the norm. I'm thinking more from a rules and proceedures standpoint.

The increasing cost of entry fees as was mentioned earlier is one. But I also have to wonder if the prohibition against bitches in heat has impact on this. As someone who has multiple intact bitches who come into heat twice a year, I know for me it's quite annoying. Thankfully my main focus, SchH, doesn't have this prohibition against bitches in heat. Sure if you've got one who turns into a space cadet when in heat you wouldn't want to trial anyway, but at least the rules don't prohibit it. I've found this rather annoying just as someone who dabbles in the other venues. I can't imagine how much trouble it could cause for someone who was really focused on those venues, put the time and effort and money into training, but then can't get the titles because of the difficulty of finding 3 trials that are within reasonable distance and scheduled at times that run no risk of the bitch being in heat come trial day. That AKC doesn't allow them in performance events but does in conformation seems like a bit of a double standard. Yes, I know conformation is supposed to be for breeding dogs, and performance for any dog, but it does leave the impression especially for breeders that conformation is the end all and be all and performance is entirely optional, and makes it hard to encourage the breeders to do anything other than conformation when at the same time putting a big obstacle in the path of anyone wanting to do performance with their breeding bitches.

The only exercise in all of AKC performance where I could see this being a major concern would be the group stays in Novice and Open. But even then I would think some sort of dummy dog/honor dog/all the bitches in heat go last/other option could be created to accomodate this if they really wanted to. For things like agility and rally, accomodations could easily be made by having the bitches in heat go last. Tracking is the only performance event I'm aware of where the AKC rules don't strictly prohibit bitches in heat from participation, and there it's left up to the individual club. But of course most clubs aren't going to choose to allow it, and it's already practically impossible to get into an AKC tracking trial as it is, especially if not a member of the hosting club, even without the bitch in heat issue.

One reason we do a lot more UKC obedience and rally than AKC is UKC's day of show entry option. Something AKC doesn't have, but I sure wish they did. The DOS entry option can be a huge money and aggrivation saver for people with intact bitches because if a trial is coming up around the time when a bitch might come into heat, we can wait until the morning of the trial and if she's not in heat we can go ahead and show. Whereas in AKC we have to try to predict in time for the closing date, often a good month before the trial date, if she'll be in heat or not, and decide if we want to run the risk of spending a small fortune in entry fees knowing that when trial day comes we may well be prohibited from showing and probably completely forego those fees because despite the written rules most clubs won't refund any, much less all, of the entry fee for bitches coming into heat.

Then on top of the prohibition against bitches in heat at trials, there seem to be quite a few training facilities who won't allow bitches in heat to even come to training. Not making it any easier for those with intact bitches to even get the training, much less the trial. Who's going to sign up and pay for a series of weekly classes when chances are good they'll have to miss a solid month of those because their bitch will turn into a leper?


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Those are very real points, Chris. My obedience club is quite strange about those females in season. It has gotten "heated" discussions at meetings too!

There is no refund and the closing dates are far out on shows. Our UKC trials offer DOS entry and it is very convenient. We usually make some money on those too!

The tracking portion of the club is run primarily by breed folks! They always let the in season females run, but they go last.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Why is that so?
Working intact males have to work and train around dogs in heat. It is "real world"


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

if I belonged to a club that wouldn't allow bitches in heat to be trained with the other dogs I'd leave. I can't handle that mentallity, nor do I care to train or be around it. If you are at a trial of any sort, you should have enough control over your in heat bitch or your intact male around an in heat bitch that there should be no issue. 

Make them go last if you must, but do ban them? retarded


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Leave?? It is the only one within 100 miles! I think I will stay. Actually, I think mine allows panties now.

But it is not just the club. The female in season can not compete in most AKC companion events.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Meanwhile, on the other part of the thread. 

I reread the articles and they were still there this morning. Also, found the interview with K. Tank a pretty good read. He talked about the German dogs they have bred into their lines. Also, spoke to health problems they are trying to eliminate that have become issues in the ASLs. Of course, the other lines bring their problems too. 

Interesting little mention he made....the pervasive problem is not tough dogs but rather borderline fear biters. Used to be owners would send them to training and ask that it be "fixed". His response, "Sure, I'll fix twenty years of genetics!"

Now, Cliff is again glad it wasn't him who said it!


----------



## mnm (Jan 9, 2006)

Well, wish me luck. The first weekend in April, I'll be going for Elsa's third leg of her CD. If we pass the 1st day, then we'll move up to Open. Will have to see how that goes. Haven't been able to train too much due to her single pup litter, but he'll be 5 weeks old next weekend and will be weaned. (Good thing he's eating on his own as much as I'll give him, the little chunk!!) I'm hoping we get passes on both, so I can hopefully finish her Open the first weekend in May. I'm going to attempt Rally Novice with Chita. Haven't gone through a course, but we can do most all of the stuff, so wanted to get her out into the competition scene and be doing something. 

It was interesting last year at this show. I tried showing in conformation. Was the only one in my class, so of course Elsa was first. The judge never even smiled or said anything to me. When we went back in for winners bitch, we were the second to last in the ring and the judge never even looked at us. Had barely made it around and was starting to set up for the stack, when the winner was already heading out of the ring. Then we headed over for the obedience ring. 

My friend was over there watching and said that I wasn't going to like this judge, he hasn't smiled all day. Turned out the conformation judge was his wife. Well, I did get a smile from him, but I was the only one. I guess he really liked Elsa's obedience. She prances while heeling and her recall was like a rocket. So, the weekend turned out ok. We got one leg for Viggo and two for Elsa.

The saddest thing is that it's about 3 hours to the nearest shows, and from last year to this year they've raised the entry fees $2. In order to make it more reasonable my friend and I are camping in our vehicles with our dogs. Looking at the forecast, we might get some snow one day...but I hope it changes. It's about 5 hours to the closest Schutzhund clubs, so I'm trying to at least be doing something with my dogs besides teaching obedience locally.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I know I've told this story on here before, but couldn't find it to copy/paste, so I'll type it again as it sort of goes along with the whole topic.

Early last year we were at a UKC rally trial showing Raven, Wulf and Della. And also had Heidi and her sister Hannah, whom we still had then, about 6 months old at the time along for day since the club was willing to allow non trialing dogs there if they were young for socialization purposes.

We did 2 legs on all 3 dogs that day, so 6 times in the rally ring. Same judge for all. On every single critique he made a point to comment in one form or another for anyone who was there willing to listen about how nice it was to see GSDs in the ring again, and happy, solid, willing workers at that. We were of course the only GSDs even at the trial. Most of the other dogs were Labs, Goldens, BCs and Aussies. During lunch break we crated the adults and brought Heidi and Hannah in for socializing. When the judge saw us walking them around he came over, got down on the floor to let the pups jump and climb all over him and give him a good face wash, suit and tie and all, and asked "Who ARE you guys??" and started off on a long, sad diatribe about how he'd been doing AKC and UKC obedience for decades, as a trainer/competitor, president of an obedience club, and a judge and how he remembered how GSDs used to be one of the dominant breeds in obedience. Not only that, but at the big shows you'd see the same GSDs going back and forth between the conformation rings and the obedience rings and they showed admirably in both. And how he'd always had a great affinity for the breed back then, but that had changed in recent years. 

Now he rarely sees GSDs even in rally, much less obedience. When he does, it's not like the past when it was the same dogs seen in the conformation ring. The conformation dogs don't come over to the performance rings anymore, and in the very rare case they do they rarely perform well. The rare GSD he sees in the performance ring now a days are usually, like ours, a completely different type and bloodline altogether than what is seen in conformation, and he finds the whole thing horribly sad.

I found that quite a powerful statement. Especially since it wasn't coming from any one camp amongst the GSD world, who are often accused of just randomly bashing other types. This was coming from someone with no investment in the breed to cloud his objectivity, beyond appreciating a dog of good temperament, training and work ethic, and who had in his decades of involvement as a trainer, shower, and judge, been afforded a front row seat to significant downward changes within our breed.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I wanted to do conformation and obedience at our most local specialty. Well, you can't do both because they are at the same time at different locations. I can understand the obed people wanting to be inside and perhaps that will draw a better entry. But, it makes it very obvious that there is no need to have it nearby for breed dogs.

I got a lot of compliments on Soleil and used to on Gala as "nice working". I think there are not many Shepherds out there and then when we do see them they have slow work. Heeling is painfully disconnected, sits hydraulic, etc. How much is dogs and how is training style? Anyway, I purposed to not have that look even if I don't have a very drivey dog every time. When they don't put on a good show, people don't look to the breed as a potential obedience dog.

I think it is real. The breed is less represented in the AKC events and this even with a perceived increase of interest in European lines by people,


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I had Halo in a class at a facility that did not allow bitches in heat. She was 7 months old at the time, the class was 7 weeks long and I was afraid she might come into heat during that time so I asked if we'd be allowed to continue or have to drop out. I was not really surprised when they said we'd have to drop out. Fortunately we were able to finish the class and she did not go into heat for a month or two after that. 

Considering that this was at ARF, ARF - Tony La Russa's Animal Rescue Foundation, whose mission is to save pets that have run out of time at public shelters and are in danger of being euthanized, they are extremely pro-speuter, and I have to respect that.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Samba,
You are right ...I am a passionate German Shepherd dog lover.....and I do realize that change often has to come from within and criticism from without often will only deal with messenger and not message. BUT, I left the breed ring in 1975 because of these same issues were starting to become prevalent at that time. Its almost FORTY years later....some people HAD to start chipping at this insulated cone of denial. So for past twenty years I have spoken out whenever asked, or involved. 
I have often said that eventually their numbers will dwindle to a point of their dogs becoming practically nonexistant outside their world(much like the Alsation dog), Lo and behold part of these articles lament the lack of numbers, in BOTH conformation and obedience of these dogs.
Hey its not about I told you so, I don't need show people or Sch trainers on this forum to validate my beliefs or ego. It is about the deterioration of a noble breed and the disappointment many people get when they get one of these dogs and they are less than what they expected from the legacy. Or the smugness the Mali people have these days that a majority of your breed is nothing but a lawn ornament.....Arg!!!!!!
So I speak out and I feel comfortable that rationale minds will be able to discern the difference.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

> It is about the deterioration of a noble breed and the disappointment many people get when they get one of these dogs and they are less than what they expected from the legacy]


Well, that did sort of happen to me. I was given an extreme ASL years ago. I wasn't looking for a GSD at the time. But, when I got him my reaction was one of "surely not!" and "what happened?". It was the unintended, accidental beginning of my adventures with the breed and representatives of various lines. I wouldn 't change it, but sure some people get surprised and that is not good. Now, more than a decade later I have been given another one. I know what I have. But, hey, I love dogs too!

Those Malis are too ugly to appear on the lawn or some would be there too!


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

There are alot of reasons not to see GSDs in the AKC "performance" events. The people with Euro dogs just don't bother. The judging that does not reward a happy working dog. The expense. The ASL people's animosity. etc etc....

I have been lucky to do OB at a club with a Collie person, now a Rally judge who was totally open to my European dogs. Starting off with her as a trainer when I did not know diddly to now being treated as a colleague in sport....and totally humbled by several compliments she has paid my dogs and training.

I do CDs and CGCs. I get alot of curious stares when I show up at a new club/match. There seems to be a slight increase in my area in WGSLs in the OB ring. There is a local GSD club full of showline breeders. When talking to one person, making a comment about a proposed breeding she attributed to a mutual person (I hesitate to use the word "friend" here), I was reported and brought up on charges. A vendetta ensued that was astounding - because I did not feel a WL female had temperament problems - and that a ASL could not "fix" perceived problems. NOT something to make a bitter enemy over IMM. Another ASL breeder told one of my puppy owners (Yoshey x Pike granddaughter) whose dog mops up in agility, that she bought her dog "from the wrong breeder" - and proceed to try to sell her a coatie who "was having trouble standing on all four legs it was so angulated" (quote of the person who was offered the dog)...

My posts on this board were downloaded and printed and I was told that they were monitoring me as well....astounding!!!!!!!!! Please note that NO NAMES are mentioned - and I am not making any comment on any of the members specifically.....sigh....it is absolutely amazing the pettiness dog people get into!

From what I see - the "war" between type camps is bitter and there is little room to help anyone. A WGSL breeder tells a prospective puppy buyer that WL are crazy and dangerous, and if he buys one, he will most suredly get sued......a ASL breeder tells another that the European dogs are all crazy and teh ASL is really the "True" GSD....a GSD breeder judge tells me that my dogs have way too much drive to sell pups like that to his buyers...and so on.

But taking any of mine to an AKC show always draws tons of interest from spectators and other exhibitors. At a match, I threw Danger in breed at 7 months old, and he ended up 2nd in the Herding group - never had even been stacked before....there was a real judge doing the judging, and he was just enthralled with Danger - the look, the temperament - and spent some time trying to talk me into showing in Breed....except for Specialty of course!!! 

As far as I am concerned, they can split the breed into ASLSD and GSD at AKC because too many people are walking around in blinders.

Lee


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I can understand a breeder or person who does other performance events like schutzhund or herding not to show up at AKC obedience. I would expect them to be doing those breed appropriate things more likely.

We all know the camps lob bombs at each other. Craziness. But, the competitors aren't showing up with GSDs. So they are evidently not a breed that appeals to agility or obedience folks. A high level competitor told me the other day that she almost got a GSD for her next dog. I will have to quiz her as to what changed her mind... another BC.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Samba said:


> I can understand a breeder or person who does other performance events like schutzhund or herding not to show up at AKC obedience. I would expect them to be doing those breed appropriate things more likely.
> 
> We all know the camps lob bombs at each other. Craziness. But, the competitors aren't showing up with GSDs. So they are evidently not a breed that appeals to agility or obedience folks. A high level competitor told me the other day that she almost got a GSD for her next dog. I will have to quiz her as to what changed her mind... another BC.


I think Samba has a point here. I believe that most of the GSD's seen in prformance events belong to people who wanted and GSD and then got into dog sports. On the other hand, if you want to excel at a particular dog sport, you get the king of dog that is excelling at that sport.

I once had an agility instructor that compared guiding my GSD thru the course to "steering the Titanic"! I participated in agility and got titles, but I didn't really "compete". Same for the other dog sports that I participated in -- we got titles and even placings.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

my dogs can stop on and turn and be at top speed again on a fricking dime, they jump over a meter easily, walk logs in the woods for fun and have caught rabbits and squirrels in the woods. If that's not agile, what is? watching a dog chase a rabbit thru new growth sprouts and around all the carnage from past logging gives a pretty good glimpse as to just how agile and fast they are. But my place is not on an agility course. It's fun to watch, but a GSD is more than that, and how I myself prefer to train and test.

I sure have seen enough GSD's that turn like the titanic and they aren't the type I train with. They turn more like a jet ski/boat.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

You prefer to train and test chasing rabbitty rabbits?


----------



## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

When Havoc was doing agility I refered to him as my"100 lb Speeding Bus" I never worried about making time with him, just keeping bars up. His tail would knock them off.
No BC for me, my puppy will do just fine, my problem with her will be me keeping up with her. I'm doing a private and group agility class per week plus an Obed. class and soon handling class will start, and I've got entries in the mail. Dogs eat very well, I get what's on sale.


----------



## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

Last weekend at Barto Pa. 18-20 GSD Spec. I think it was 5 point majors for all three days. For Obed. there were 12 dogs entered. (indoor show on turf)


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, Judy, you can be counted as one that is out there doing events! Were the 12 dogs GSDs in Obed?


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

gsdheeler said:


> Last weekend at Barto Pa. 18-20 GSD Spec. I think it was 5 point majors for all three days. For Obed. there were 12 dogs entered. (indoor show on turf)


Yup I know. I showed Friday and Sunday. Mike took High Combined both days....sad to say we were the only team eligible for that award! Painful to win all 4 classes with decent scores and not pick up a single OTCh point, because there weren't enough dogs entered! 

I remember showing Ianna in Novice at the Lehigh specialty back when it was outdoors (always tricky in the middle of March!).....total entry back then was usually 40-45 dogs. I sure miss those days!


----------



## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

The 12 at the show were all GSDs. I wasn't showing at this one. I'm starting Chili in Novice Rally at a GSD spec show in April, she's not where I want her to be in regular Obed. just yet. 
I was at the Barto show to see a dog that was in breed. (same breeding as mine but from a earlier litter)


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The numbers show it is a different world now. We can know the economy is not good for showing. Dogs are still popular though and GSDs ever more popular in registration numbers. But, exhibiting is not making it so much these days.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Two things mentioned that I particularly agree wholeheartedly with. 

Bitches are tough because of heat cycles and pregnancies. Heidi had got two legs of her RA last March and I was going to finish her off at the specialty in May -- nope, went into heat, then I bred her, vacation for her and false pregnancy. I bred her again, AI next heat, false pregnancy again due early in December, too late to enter the classic with her, even if she was ready. I got her into the show last weekend, she went into heat today. Babsy went into heat Monday -- two days after the show. Dogs you can wait until you go all the way through Utility before breeding them, or breed them all along, no matter. But bitches need to be pampered, at least for the first few weeks of pregnancy. I mean, you are not going to pay $400 for 2 AIs, and then jump the bitch in open two weeks after the AI. 

And if you wait until she is three or four to start breeding her, you may then have a timing issue, and a false pregnancy, and then you are asking yourself if she is too old to be having her first litter. 

I mean, Heidi will be five in August and has not had a litter yet. 

The other thing is that the obedience people are rather abrasive, especially if you start out in Rally. Not sure about agility people. I have trained two dogs in Agility, but have never trialed them. 

The show I was at last weekend, I had just finished Heidi's RE leg, and one of these obedience snobs comes over and sits two lawn chairs down from where I was sitting in the obedience section waiting to go in with Babsy, and she says: "Those Rally dogs are just awful, they cannot keep them in the ring!" 

I leaned over and said, my Rally dog was very nice thank you. Unabashed, she said, "but that is because it is a Rally-Obedience Dog." 

I said, "uh, no, I am doing obedience with this dog, Heidi has only done Rally." 

They are certainly not a welcoming group. The Rally people on the other hand seem to welcome each other and wish each other luck, and watch over dogs and stuff for complete strangers. I like them. 

One of the ladies I went to for classes, years ago, came over with her Sheltie to the Obedience ring. I recognized her and said Hello and her first name. She walked right by me without acknowledging me. I was sitting over there, literally for HOURS. And she never did acknowledge me. Fine. I was happy when she NQ'd. Notice I said She did, the dog didn't it was her handling that got the dog NQ'd. So here I am happy to see another competitor do poorly. She and the border collie witch, yeah, I was Hoping her dog would lay down in the sit stay, but it did not. Still, she was looking for high in trial and did not even place -- and that is how I feel around the obedience people -- hoping they fail. Too long to go into the Border Collie Witch's infractions, lets just say she was irritable and whining and complaining about everything. 

Obedience people are just not a happy bunch. And their attitude travels to people who were doing just great, and now are so unhappy, they wish them unwell. 

Why do something if it is not fun, and the people are dweebs? 

I think the main reason I went for a CD with Babsy is because it is the last title I could get without jumping her further. She is retired now. She can be a full-time bed warmer now.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

That is unfortunate! There are some crabby obed people but generally I avoid them or make a fun time of aggravating them. Generally, we all root for one another. We gather round to clap and especially recognize the novice A folks. I am thinking Missouri is friendlier than Ohio. Darn Yankees....I can say that, I am from Dayton.

Rally part is generally more laid back bunch. I find all sorts of people though! One of my favs is 80 and titling her standard poodle nicely.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Missouri is WARMER than Ohio. Maybe that is the difference. (they say it is going down to 17 degrees tonight.)

If you ask an obedience person the time of day, they will lift their nose and turn their head away. 
If you ask a rally person the time of day, they will trip over their feet running to find someone with a watch. 

Either way you are out of luck getting what you need, but the rally people at least give you a warm feeling about it. 

I like Rally. But it is true that you can have a pretty bad dog and still get the title. Sometimes the handlers are downright embarrassing and annoying. They nag at their dogs, saying the dogs name five thousand times in a two minute run, and wonder why the dog isn't paying the least bit of attention to them. But you can also see some very well trained dogs and excellent handlers in the ring. 

It is a sport that we do vie for ribbons, but you can also measure your success by competing with your own performance.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> If you ask an obedience person the time of day, they will lift their nose and turn their head away.


Geeeeeez......glad it's not like that around here!


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I am an obedience person and I do look down on the rally people mostly because they show in rally because they can't do obedience. Their dogs are out of control and the handlers don't seem to have a clue. When you have to keep your dog on leash and can keep giving your dog commands, that's just not control - that's play time. They let their dogs run up to other dogs and are generally embarrassing. Rally is the dumbed down version of obedience for people that want to compete without training their dogs.

I don't compete in rally and the only way you would catch me doing it is when my dog has all the titles I can get on him and he's old and wants to goof around.

I am as pleasant as can be to rally people at trials so long as they keep their dogs away from mine, but don't ask me to say that rally titles mean anything.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As someone who has done both, a rally advanced title is more difficult than a CD. I took three first place ribbons with Arwen for her CD, and a first and third place with Babsy on hers. 

Obedience is ALWAYS the same. It is boring. It is not difficult to train for. If your dog can stand for the exam, it is a piece of cake. The heeling pattern is almost always the same. I have seen dogs pass it following their owner, and totally out of position, and even not sitting on the downs. 

But do I look down at people in Novice Obedience because I have dogs in Advanced and Excellent Rally? No. 

It is just a different venue. 

I know obedience people that have a hard time in Rally, because you have to watch the signs and the order, etc. Obedience you simply have to listen to the judge, and so long as you can HEAR the judge, you can change direction or go fast or slow. 

Getting the dog to be back with you after the jump in time for the next sign takes a little bit of training. The moving stand walk around I saw utility people doing this. We do it in rally excellent. But I admit it did not take much training to get my dog to do that. 

Some rally dogs are very well trained, and their owners are having fun, and the dogs are having fun, and it is fun to watch. 

Some obedience dogs are not ready when they enter the ring, they look terrible, they travel about the ring sniffing and no where near their handler, they go out of the ring, and sometimes, it is appalling to see what does qualify, and it is just as appalling to see how many dogs NQ.


----------



## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Samba said:


> You prefer to train and test chasing rabbitty rabbits?


No, I prefer to train in schutzhund and prefer to test a GSD physically and mentally thru training, not some title on paper.

I let them chase rabbits out in the woods for fun. I don't let them where I live because it's in town and dangerous. When I hear stuff about how GSD's aren't good enough to win in agility, I say look for better GSD's. You can't tell me a 10 year old bitch that can catch a rabbit racing thru thick new growth littered with the remains of logging activity isn't athletic enough to take some agility titles if trained in that venue.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

crackem said:


> When I hear stuff about how GSD's aren't good enough to win in agility, I say look for better GSD's. You can't tell me a 10 year old bitch that can catch a rabbit racing thru thick new growth littered with the remains of logging activity isn't athletic enough to take some agility titles if trained in that venue.


Several months ago I had the 2 younger GSDs in their kennel runs and 12.5 year old Ianna (aka The Old Bat) was loose in the yard. I heard the puppy having a barking fit, obviously upset about something Ianna was doing that she couldn't "help" with. Looked out to see The Old Bat trot by casually, and there were small feet sticking out of her mouth, and a tail. SQUIRREL! 

Me: "HEY!"
Ianna: "Yes? can I help you?" 
Me: "DROP IT!" 

She looked distressed, she really didn't want to give up her prize. She did finally drop it and came in the house, and I gave her a really good treat (meatball). Gotta love those old dogs! She never did agility because she seriously hated the dog walk, but she did run flyball for many years. Still, I was surprised that at her age she was able to catch a squirrel!


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I don't get it...things like rally, agility, flyball, etc. are really play things for a dog to do. I don't know why breed people would get upset at others for doing it. Now if people use these types of things to validate the quality of their German Shepherd.....that's different. Any dog can do these events if brought out and worked at. That doesn't minimize their value for fun, socialization, and handler exposure. But it says nothing about the quality of a German Shepherd. So I don't know why the obedience people would look their nose down at rally people. Its only training! Hey a cocker spaniel can get a CD/CDX and many have. That's great!! But I can't allow myself to be deluded into thinking this would validate my German Shepherd as a dog who exemplifies the breed as it should be. For owners, I think that people should enter their dogs into as much as is available and is practical....the dogs love it. No need for people to "hate"..lol on others doing fun things. For breeders, the bar is higher in measuring whether the dog possesses good GS traits to pass on.JMO


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

A good GSD should be able to do a number of these fun things, I think. Perhaps I am wrong. I will quit beating my head against the wall trying to learn rules or negotiate courses if I really have chosen a breed that is not suited to these sorts of things!

These activities are some indication of trainability and athleticism of the dog. They are not piece of cake things to do. It would not be so good if lots of GSDs are produced that can't even make a good show of these fun things!

Of course, they are not breed suitability tests. I have a GSD from the dog pound now who does pretty good at this stuff. I would not consider her to possess the set of traits that would make me want to breed a dog like her. 

Unfortunately, this thread all started from an article entitled... "Back to Basics". I am thinking "very basic" at this point. Solid dogs with adequate structure, trainability and decent nerve is a start. Unfortunately, some (not all) have slipped below the basic bar. 

I wonder where all the breeders of the good dogs who don't stoop to the fun of these activities place their puppies. Are they all on the police force? I doubt it. I myself would be glad to be able to place a pup in a home active in various training activities with the dog. 

While it is not a breed worthiness test, a certain amount of intelligence, athleticism, drive and solid nerve do serve very well in these fun sports.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

cliffson1 said:


> I don't get it...things like rally, agility, flyball, etc. are really play things for a dog to do. I don't know why breed people would get upset at others for doing it. Now if people use these types of things to validate the quality of their German Shepherd.....that's different. Any dog can do these events if brought out and worked at. That doesn't minimize their value for fun, socialization, and handler exposure. But it says nothing about the quality of a German Shepherd. So I don't know why the obedience people would look their nose down at rally people. Its only training! Hey a cocker spaniel can get a CD/CDX and many have. That's great!! But I can't allow myself to be deluded into thinking this would validate my German Shepherd as a dog who exemplifies the breed as it should be. For owners, I think that people should enter their dogs into as much as is available and is practical....the dogs love it. No need for people to "hate"..lol on others doing fun things. For breeders, the bar is higher in measuring whether the dog possesses good GS traits to pass on.JMO


:thumbup:


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> As someone who has done both, a rally advanced title is more difficult than a CD. I took three first place ribbons with Arwen for her CD, and a first and third place with Babsy on hers.


I don't think I can agree.....I could take my 11 month old into rally advanced tomorrow and get a decent score, but there's no way she's ready to get a CD leg! 



> Obedience is ALWAYS the same. It is boring. It is not difficult to train for. If your dog can stand for the exam, it is a piece of cake. The heeling pattern is almost always the same. I have seen dogs pass it following their owner, and totally out of position, and even not sitting on the downs.


Get yourself out of Novice and it gets a HECK of a lot more interesting, both for the trainer and the dog.



> I know obedience people that have a hard time in Rally, because you have to watch the signs and the order, etc. Obedience you simply have to listen to the judge, and so long as you can HEAR the judge, you can change direction or go fast or slow.


as someone with progressive nerve deafness, that "so long as you can HEAR the judge" isn't exactly a trivial thing!




> Some obedience dogs are not ready when they enter the ring, they look terrible, they travel about the ring sniffing and no where near their handler, they go out of the ring, and sometimes, it is appalling to see what does qualify, and it is just as appalling to see how many dogs NQ.


I hear people saying exactly the same thing about Rally all the time. Except not that many dogs NQ, because the main ways to NQ are 1) the handler misses a sign, 2) the dog doesn't do the jump, or 3) the dog pees in the ring. Maybe it's time for AKC rally to move in the direction of APDT Rally, where the dog can't qualify if he doesn't correctly do (not attempt, do) every station?

If obedience is so easy to train, then why do so many dogs NQ? People don't WANT to NQ, and shows are expensive! Maybe some people (and some dogs) don't find it quite so easy?

Just playing devil's advocate here, because I'm tired of hearing that people think obedience is boring. it's only boring if you make it boring! and I'm kinda just killing time, DH was supposed to call for a ride over an hour ago. At this rate it looks like I might miss my afternoon obedience trial.....


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think that the titling process gives us information about the dog. That the parents earned a CD or an RE, does not guarantee the puppies will be suitable for law enforcement. But neither does Schutzhund, really. 

If you raise a puppy from puppy on up, to perform the tasks required for schutzhund, if you are a decent handler/owner, you will most likely be able to accomplish a schutzhund title with a dog of less than excellent temperament. So? 

Considering the number of individuals who do ZERO with their dogs, any title speaks volumes in my opinion. Lack of titles does not mean the puppies have no value, but it does mean the owners did not see the point in bothering with titles. There is very little difference in my opinion as a breed test between a dog having an RN and a dog having a CD. Neither tests instincts like protection or herding or tracking, so if that is what I wanted the dog for, I would not buy a dog out of these dogs.

But both tests require that the dog be capable of learning basic obedience skills, work around distractions, and probably not be dog aggressive. I mean, I think it would be possible to title a dog aggressive dog, or get a title on a dog prior to signs of serious dog aggression, but it would be more likely to show that the dog is controllable around dogs and people in a charged atmosphere.

How a dog titles, how much work went into the process, how much the stress affected the dogs during training or showing, tells a breeder much more. Just because we titled a dog does not mean we are going to breed them on their next cycle. Taking our dogs that far gives us information about the dog and it is good for the dog. 

There are a few of my girls I will never breed, but I can take them to the vet, the groomer, really anywhere without any hassels. They are just not breedworthy in my opinion. I think that had I not perservered with these dogs, and continued to go through the training until I got the very basic titles on them, they might be basket cases when they need to go somewhere. 

I guess that while these titles may not confirm that a dog is breedworthy, the process can confirm that some are not.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I don't think obedience is necessarily boring to the dogs. I can say that I get bored with doing the same exercises over and over again. My dogs play, we have a great time and lots of giggles. But still those same exercises keep coming over and over again! It is boring to my family. They would rather watch an apple turn brown than watch obedience competition. Some folks do find it boring. I don't see anything wrong with that... if it is that way to them, it is. Perception is reality in these kinds of things. I love knitting... lots of people find it tedious and boring.

I do believe competition in these arenas is not all the same. Sure it is all training and you can train a weak dog to do alot of things. But at high levels of say OTCH competition, if you are working with a weak dog you are going to know it and it is going to present it problems. That is why in the article the admonition was for people to get out and title at the highest levels available in the "fun" stuff.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> I mean, I think it would be possible to title a dog aggressive dog


Oh yes it's certainly possible but it's a heck of a lot of work! (she says, stealing a glance at the male GSD snoozing on the couch....)



> I guess that while these titles may not confirm that a dog is breedworthy, the process can confirm that some are not.


THAT'S for sure! (she says, again stealing a glance at the male GSD who will NEVER be used for breeding.....)


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DunRingill said:


> I don't think I can agree.....I could take my 11 month old into rally advanced tomorrow and get a decent score, but there's no way she's ready to get a CD leg! Why? What can your eleven month old dog not do? A cd is mostly healing, a recall, stand for exam and a couple of very short stays.
> 
> When I take a dog through classes, I train for rally, but when we are in classes, we always end the classes with sits and down stays. We always teach the recall, we need it for the CGC, and finishes -- well for rally the dog needs to do both right and left finishes, so you can easily tack one on to the end of your recall. If you can do all the rally advanced signs, the doodling-type stuff, pivots, stops, sit, down, stands, walk around dogs, call to front and finish, and your offset figure eight with your eleven month old pup, unless he seriously has a problem with getting his butt touched, then your dog could certainly get a qualifying score in novice.
> 
> ...


It is boring in my opinion. It is stiff and not fun. I like to praise my dog, even if I do like to give commands just once. Rally is always different. The patterns are different, there are different signs in the ring each time, you never know if there will be a offset figure eight, a serpentine, a spiral, how many sits, how many downs, stands. You will know how many jumps, but not what kind. 

Obedience is the same every time. Forward, halt, forward, left turn, slow, normal, about turn, halt, forward, right turn fast, normal, about turn, halt. Do the figure eight. Hand the leash to the steward and stand for exam. Do the very same healing pattern off lead. Recall. Then wait for the stays. The only differences may be that you may the stand for exam after heal free. Ooooh! This is a tough course. 

People SHOULD go into obedience 100% ready. Where as Rally, you can hope there will not be a long jump or a three steps back sign. You never know when you sign up whether the course will be tight and crowded, or spread out and fast. Your dog will probably do better in one or the other. 

I think it is easier to admit that you missed a station and NQ'd than that you NQ'd for tight leashes or on points. I mean, anyone can miss a sign, but if you NQ'd because the dog was not ready, that is a bit worse.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

As for going beyond novice in obedience, well, it is always possible, but it would be a heck of a lot easier if I had just one dog going through training. Maybe then I could get the alphabet soup after my dogs name. But it would not make a dog that is not breedworthy, breedworthy. It would just mean that I took that dog to more training classes, and more trials.


----------



## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

selzer said:


> As for going beyond novice in obedience, well, it is always possible, but it would be a heck of a lot easier if I had just one dog going through training. Maybe then I could get the alphabet soup after my dogs name. But it would not make a dog that is not breedworthy, breedworthy. It would just mean that I took that dog to more training classes, and more trials.


Yes, it would be easier, but it is still important to train. No, it does not in and of itself make a dog breedworthy, but it would tell you more about a dog. It can also tell you volumes about your breeding program. I was always more proud of the titles my puppy buyers put on their dogs than I was mine -- I was the experienced trainer, they were not.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

Originally Posted by *DunRingill*  
_I don't think I can agree.....I could take my 11 month old into rally advanced tomorrow and get a decent score, but there's no way she's ready to get a CD leg! Why? What can your eleven month old dog not do? A cd is mostly healing, a recall, stand for exam and a couple of very short stays. 

I could get her ready to Q fairly quickly, but doubt she would Q tomorrow....we've done lots of foundation work but haven't put together full routines. The foundation work includes marks, signals, jumps, and scent discrimination, along with lots of attention games. No full routines yet for a puppy. Maybe drilling routines has something to do with this perceived "boredom", the idea that competition obedience is stifling to the dogs? 

I'm pretty confident I could get her thru a Rally Advanced course right now, tho I haven't specifically taught her Rally. I do occasionally run her thru a course when teaching class, and use her to demo how to teach a station. 

If you can do all the rally advanced signs, the doodling-type stuff, pivots, stops, sit, down, stands, walk around dogs, call to front and finish, and your offset figure eight with your eleven month old pup, unless he seriously has a problem with getting his butt touched, then your dog could certainly get a qualifying score in novice.

She rather likes getting her butt touched, actually...and tends to move TOWARDS whoever is approaching to go over her. that's something we're working on!

I mean, you have to admit that there are actually more things one must learn for rally advanced than for novice obedience.

Guess I don't specifically train Novice, I start training with Utility in mind....it takes some time to get GOOD heelwork rather than just adequate, and there are so many other pieces that can be trained at the same time. 

 I was NQ'd once for dropping my leash twice. You will NQ for touching your dog. People NQ for using harsh commands or for corrections. People NQ for tight leads or for using the lead to direct the dog one way or the other. If the dog goes out of the ring, NQ. If you pick your dog up, NQ -- even during the awards. And you can NQ on points. 

You shouldn't NQ for touching your dog, it's just points off....unless you actually CORRECT your dog, or do it over and over which will kill you on points. But I'm pretty sure there isn't an NQ specifically for touching your dog, accidentally or otherwise. Dropping your leash, I think that's under "Handler Error", same as touching your dog. In fact most of the things you mention are handler errors and have nothing to do with whether the dog can do the stations or not.

Just playing devil's advocate here, because I'm tired of hearing that people think obedience is boring. it's only boring if you make it boring! and I'm kinda just killing time, DH was supposed to call for a ride over an hour ago. At this rate it looks like I might miss my afternoon obedience trial....._

It is boring in my opinion. It is stiff and not fun.

If that's your experience, maybe you should change something about what you're doing? because if YOU think it's stiff and not fun, then your dog will think so too. 

I like to praise my dog, even if I do like to give commands just once. 

You can praise your dog a lot during training, and there are plenty of ways and places to praise your dog in the ring too. 

Obedience is the same every time. Forward, halt, forward, left turn, slow, normal, about turn, halt, forward, right turn fast, normal, about turn, halt. 

I showed in 3 classes today and 2 yesterday, and didn't have that heeling pattern (or anything similar to it) even once. 

Do the figure eight. Hand the leash to the steward and stand for exam. Do the very same healing pattern off lead. Recall. Then wait for the stays. The only differences may be that you may the stand for exam after heal free. Ooooh! This is a tough course. 

sfe after the heel free? Not in AKC obedience. 

I don't generally spend much time in Novice....get the title, move on to Open. Open B and Utility B have different orders of exercises and you don't know which order you're doing until it's posted. and yes some of the orders are more challenging than others!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think Rally started out pretty much as they explained it to me. All the basics of training for obedience are there. So if you have covered your bassic foundation, you can do Rally. 

I really beleive a CD is quite a bit higher in difficulty. With talking alllowed iin Rally, one can get a dog a long way in it without being ready for the higher levels. I have taken more than one dog into Rally courses without the dog having seen a course or signs. Its skills are basic foundation skills.

Now, of course, I don't believe these activities test for courage and fight drive. Huge holes could be in a German Shepherd who was successful out there. The dogs I have had that possessed the characteristics most Shepherdly came from places where the largest portions of German Shepherdness were well understood and tested for. 

The deal is we have many people breeeding who don't understand what is needed for a confident and easily trained dog. So many show people have said to me about a conformation wahsout that it could make an obedience dog. Well, not unless you are breeding dogs that have good nerves, confidence, intelligence, willingness and drives one can motivate. Those are the basics and many breeders miss those most basic of goals. Then to get closer to the entire GSD package takes a lot more.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> They are the ones in there doing it, they are the ones with huge numbers at every show I have ever been at. Maybe it is because they are so crazy that without some type of outlet, their dogs would not be livable. Maybe it is because they do very well at all the different parts. Maybe it is because there is no schutzhund-type venue for them. I do not know. Maybe it is their stepping stone to what they really want to do with the dogs -- agility.


 There is nothing about Obedience/Rally/Agility that should prevent a good GSD from doing well or excelling at it. Like good BCs, good GSDs should have plenty of driven and be quite biddable, willing workers.



selzer said:


> As someone who has done both, a rally advanced title is more difficult than a CD.


 I don't agree at all. Rally does not require near the same level of reliability as Obedience does. I know plenty of dogs who breezed through rally and years later, still can't Q in Novice. 



selzer said:


> Obedience is ALWAYS the same. It is boring. It is not difficult to train for. If your dog can stand for the exam, it is a piece of cake. The heeling pattern is almost always the same. I have seen dogs pass it following their owner, and totally out of position, and even not sitting on the downs.


 If it was "a piece of cake", we would see far more outstanding obedience dogs than we do. As it is, I see a lot of mediocre to downright poor performances in the obedience ring and a lot of people who have gotten far in Rally and Agility that can't even get a CD on their dog.

I personally don't find obedience boring at all. I find training dogs to be quite interesting though. I _love_ a nice heeling dog 

So where have all the GSDs gone? It sounds like that article brings up many good points.

I have talked to many agility and obedience people over the years who love GSDs but have been told they are a poor choice for performance dogs and what they see at shows often supports that. The biggest issue that holds GSDs back in agility is IMO drive issues. So many GSDs in agility just plod through the course and don't seem that "into" it. There is no reason that GSDs shouldn't be able to earn respectable times in agility, except that many just don't seem to have the drive for it. People loved seeing my GSD do agility because she was fast and obviously enjoying it. I got lots of comments about how you just don't see many GSDs like that. 

I find a lot of people involved with AKC stuff think that Amline GSDs are what "good" GSD breeders select for and other GSDs are poorly bred. I hear more "it's a shame what they've done to the breed" comments about GSDs than any other breed among people at AKC events (conformation or performance). A lot of people are surprised when I tell them of all the splits within GSDs and quite a few are still suspicious because they feel if people aren't showing in AKC conformation, they must be "BYB"s. 

Structural issues are a big thing with people looking to get a performance dog. This is not just a problem of excessive angulation and ligaments but roach backs, long bodies, poor fronts and excessive bone are fairly common to see in the breed. Many people like GSDs but opt for other shepherd-y type dogs, thinking that they can more easily find an athletic dog in a different breed.

I do think what you tend to see of GSDs in AKC venues are Amlines and pet lines. I think most people who compete with working line dogs tend to be much more into SchH, which is pretty consuming. I have seen quite a few SchH GSDs trialing to get some AKC OB titles, their owners just don't tend to trial beyond getting the titles. There is a very nice Amline GSD doing obedience in my area that I see at my club's run thrus. Very up and precise working dog - makes a really pretty picture in the ring. 

I think if people want others to see the GSD as a respectable performance breed, they have to present them as such. Training to the bare minimum required to get a title can reflect poorly on your breed and your opinion of the breed, especially if you are someone who is actively involved (as opposed to a pet owner just getting into competing). Not everyone needs to aim for perfection but aiming to only exhibit dogs who seems to enjoy working isn't unreasonable. 

There are lots of reasons for not titling dogs but if it is important to breeders, it is doable. Dogs generally aren't bred until they are at least two and if one is actively training a dog from puppyhood, it is realistic to be able to get at least some entry level titles prior to the dog's first litter. IMO it isn't that the titles mean all that much. It's the effort the breeder puts into training and titling that means more, especially for breeders just starting out. Too many people are so eager to breed that they sort of put the cart in front of the horse, having litters and planning to title their dogs afterward. Often with a constant supply of new puppies to raise, afterward never comes. This is IME how so many people get into just doing conformation. CHs are not a easy title to obtain but the breed ring requires very little training with the dog compared to any other venue. And searching for points can become all consuming, leaving little time or money for pursuing other venues.

Without a doubt, breeders who don't have a background in "doing stuff" with their dogs are unlikely to understand temperament and drives well enough to breed to improve upon their dogs. Many show breeders seem to think any active dog is a potentially great agility dog and any laid back puppy could make a great obedience dog.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

For those reading the thread who aren't all that familiar with Obedience titles I think it's important to know that there's a lot more to it than sit, down, stay. If was easy more breeders would be slapping those titles on their dogs. Anyway, for anyone who's interested, here's a short run down courtesy of the AKC website:
*What is AKC Obedience?*


Demonstrating the usefulness of a dog as a companion to humankind, AKC Obedience is a sport with rules, regulations, judges, conditioning, training, placements and prizes.
Dog and handler teams are judged on how closely they match the judge's mental picture of a theoretically perfect performance as they execute a series of specified exercises.
Accuracy and precision are essential, but the natural movement of the handler and the willingness and enjoyment of the dog are very important.
Helen Whitehouse Walker devised the first obedience "test" in Mt. Kisco, New York in 1933 to show the intelligence of her poodles.
The first AKC licensed obedience trial was held in 1936. 200 dogs were entered in 18 trials in that inaugural year.
Each level of obedience competition - novice, open, and utility - requires mastering a specific skill set, which increase in difficulty, before advancing to the next level.
The Novice Class demonstrates good canine companion skills such as heeling, both with and without a leash, coming when called, standing for a simple physical examination, and staying in both a sit and a down position with a group of dogs.
In the Novice Class, dogs earn an AKC Companion Dog (CD) title after receiving a qualifying score under three different judges.
The Open Class is more challenging as more exercises are done off leash and retrieving and jumping challenges are added.
In the Open Class, dogs earn an AKC Companion Dog Excellent (CDX) title after receiving a qualifying score under three different judges.
The Utility Class, includes scent discrimination, directed retrieves, jumping and silent signal exercises, is the most challenging class.
In the Utility Class, dogs earn an AKC Utility Dog (UD) title after receiving qualifying scores from three different judges.
Upon completion of the UD title, dogs may earn the Utility Dog Excellent (UDX) when they receive qualifying scores in both Open B and Utility B at 10 separate trials.
The Obedience Trial Championship (OTCH) title is often referred to as the "PhD" for dogs, is the highest obedience honor a dog can receive.
To obtain an OTCH title, a dog and handler team must earn 100 points by placing first, second, third or fourth in the Open B or Utility B class. Three first places must also be awarded from the Open B and Utility B classes.
A Shetland Sheepdog “Jo’s Xpensif Hobi O’Redfield” holds the most OTCH points earned over a lifetime with 16,711 points!
To receive an invitation to the AKC National Obedience Invitational dogs must be the top OTCH and OTCH- pointed dogs in each breed. Dogs may also qualify to receive an invitation by participating in one of the new Regional Obedience Competitions.
The AKC National Obedience Championship title (NOC) is awarded to one dog each year.
Only dogs winning the AKC National Obedience Championship are permitted to have the prestigious NOC letters precede it's name in AKC records.
There are eleven NOCs in the thirteen-year history of this event, two dogs having won the award twice.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In the breed ring you want the dog to pull out and you want the dog to do a lot of standing. In obedience you want the dog to sit without extra commands and you want the dog to heel without sitting. Taking Joy Joy to agility classes and then conformation classes did not do anything wonderful for her Rally heeling. 

So I can understand people going for the champion, and not doing obedience or other performance events until they get their championship, and once they do, it is such an accomplishment that especially for bitches, they do not want to wait even longer before a litter. 

Preparing for the show ring IS preparation. And I do not put them down. I see it as just a different type of performance event. It is certainly not the soft option.


----------



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

> In the breed ring you want the dog to pull out and you want the dog to do a lot of standing. In obedience you want the dog to sit without extra commands and you want the dog to heel without sitting. Taking Joy Joy to agility classes and then conformation classes did not do anything wonderful for her Rally heeling.


That's just making excuses though. Lots of people will show, do rally and formal obedience with no problems. In Schutzhund tracking dog has to be at the end of a 33 foot line working away from the handler, nose down. 

then in obedience it is 10 minutes of solid heeling head up completely focused on the handler. 

Then in protection the dog has to run down the field, guard the helper with the handler away, but respond immediately when the handler approaches and calls the dog back to him/her (among other exercises). If a well trained dog can do all this, I don't see why it would be detrimental to such a breed as a GSD that is bred to be responsive and enthousiastic in their work to pull out ahead in the show ring, and heel appropriately in the obedience ring.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Pulling out in a show ring when double handling goes on isn't that difficult is it? I know you have to train for it, but it is nothing compared to obedience precision work.
I've been working with an AKC obedience instructor and precision is huge, along with engagement.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree that open and utility have more to them, but novice is not all that difficult to attain. After all I have done it with more than one dog -- anyone can. 

If you want your puppy to be up to utility level before signing them up for novice, than your dog might be able to rally advanced prior to being ready for novice -- in your opinion. 

The rally regulations do say that the handler may not touch or physically correct the dog. I have seen dogs NQ'd for touching and I have seen dogs NQ'd for harsh corrections. I have witnessed a lot of NQ's. I think like most other things, different regions have different judging and may be more strict or lenient than other regions. 

I find the RA more challenging than the CD because with the jumps, and the placement and variety of signs used, if the dog is likely to get out of position, or be distracted, it would be easier than in the very simple healing pattern for the CD. Dogs are totally off lead, there is no gentle guiding allowed as in the cd with a hand on the collar at any point. And in obedience you can give stiffer, harsher commands to the dog. 

The only reason I am going through Rally before getting the CD on Heidi, is because I can be in A classes in advanced and excellent so long as I do not have an obedience title on the dog. In Obedience, since I managed a CD once, I am in B classes for the rest of my life, just like the RN. 

I think that RAE dogs SHOULD be pretty good and in their own class. But if you have a CD on the dog, you have to be in with them. It just makes placing harder. I mean, if it is your first, second or third time in the ring, you and the dog will not be as familiar as someone getting their fifth RAE -- now _that _is masochistic.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I do not know how important all that precision is. I mean, with three different judges on Babs, I scored 190, 188, and 188, and I am not exactly precise about anything. The dog heels well, so we do not lose a lot of points heeling. And stays are pretty much pass/fail. But unless you are knocking yourself out for high in trial points, that you cannot even compete for until open, I do not understand being anal about precision. 

Breed though, those conformation classes, I am sorry, but I would rather take all my dogs in the obedience ring on the same day than go through the breed ring. You work up a sweat in the breed ring, not in obedience. 

I think that one can use a different collar in breed and train obedience/rally and conformation at the same time if they want to. I found it to make loose leash heeling harder to accomplish with Joy, but I managed it with all scores over ninety. But I can see why show people might not either. I injured Babs en-route to this last trial. If she limped in the obedience ring, the judge could have excused her. I lucked out really. But I can see why a show person might not want to jump a dog in the obedience ring if they are looking for championship points the next day. Training up to the show in obedience or agility or rally when if you injure the dog, you are out entrance fees and possibly a major. Think about that. Breed depends on who is entered, how many dogs are entered and actually show up, and who the judge is. 

Everyone who has never bothered to show their dog, poo poos the ring experience of show dogs, but show dog people work a lot harder than we performance people ever do. I mean, I may look who's judging the day before a show to make sure i had three judges and did not overlap. But I certainly do not choose to enter or not enter dependent on who's judging. You really have to in breed. You have to know the judges, what they are looking for, etc etc etc.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Unfortunate that you have to know which judge will be better than another....says so much about the state of showing(not just GSD, but all breeds!)
Many hire professional handlers to run their dogs around the ring, and the judges look at that too. 
I think if you are putting the money, time and effort into competing no matter what the venue, you want to do your best, so precision is easy if you train that way from the beginning, instead of wasting time trying to fix it, as I am doing now!


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> If you want your puppy to be up to utility level before signing them up for novice, than your dog might be able to rally advanced prior to being ready for novice -- in your opinion.


No, she doesn't need to be ready for Utility.....just familiar with some of the basic concepts! No reason not to teach signals from up close, and get that fold-back down locked into their muscle memory. Go-outs are fun! And if your dog knows a lot of the utility behaviors, then absolutely they should be able to do rally advanced. The handler, however, that's a different story! 



> I find the RA more challenging than the CD because with the jumps, and the placement and variety of signs used, if the dog is likely to get out of position, or be distracted, it would be easier than in the very simple healing pattern for the CD. Dogs are totally off lead, there is no gentle guiding allowed as in the cd with a hand on the collar at any point. And in obedience you can give stiffer, harsher commands to the dog.


Rally is also maybe a minute and a half long, most of it moving....even the most basic novice obedience routine is significantly longer. In Rally you can give as many commands as you need and add body language if necessary, and it's much easier to keep the dog's attention. If you give harsh commands in obedience it's a penalty too, no difference. 

The main reason dogs get distracted in Rally is because the HANDLER gets confused and hesitates, and that in turn makes the dog hesitate....it's like "Hey, mom doesn't know where she's going! Maybe I better take a look around and see why she's spazzing." 

Hey I'm not picking on Rally....it's especially great for getting young dogs started. But don't make it out to be more difficult than it is. Most of the NQs in rally are from stuff the handler does wrong, not the dog. 



> The only reason I am going through Rally before getting the CD on Heidi, is because I can be in A classes in advanced and excellent so long as I do not have an obedience title on the dog. In Obedience, since I managed a CD once, I am in B classes for the rest of my life, just like the RN.


wait, what? It's the same in both venues, Novice A is for first time handlers and first time dogs. After that first Novice A dog you show in Novice B. But at the other levels you're still in A, in both Obedience and Rally. exception being that if your dog has ANY obedience title (including the new Beginner Novice title) you have to get rally titles out of the B classes. And what's really strange is, if you ever put an OTCh on a dog you can only show the next dogs in the B classes, but in Rally you can still get titles out of Advanced and Excellent A. 



> I think that RAE dogs SHOULD be pretty good and in their own class. But if you have a CD on the dog, you have to be in with them. It just makes placing harder. I mean, if it is your first, second or third time in the ring, you and the dog will not be as familiar as someone getting their fifth RAE -- now _that _is masochistic.


RAE5, that makes my head (and bank balance) ache!


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> But unless you are knocking yourself out for high in trial points, that you cannot even compete for until open, I do not understand being anal about precision.


HIT can and often does come out of the Novice class.

You either work on precision from the beginning, or you don't bother. It's not something you can easily change later on! 



> I think that one can use a different collar in breed and train obedience/rally and conformation at the same time if they want to.


True. My first male GSD finished his Canadian CDX and got a Group 3 at the same show. He ran from one ring to the other.



> Everyone who has never bothered to show their dog, poo poos the ring experience of show dogs, but show dog people work a lot harder than we performance people ever do.


Guess it depends on what you mean by work?? And yes, I've shown a dog or 2 in the breed ring. Even worked for a GSD handler at one point, taking the "extras" into the ring.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How the advantage goes does not always depend on lots of experience in the ring. When Rally first came out, I got my son's little dog off the sofa (she had earned a CD earlier) and we beat 70 dogs at a time and had 9 firsts and 1 second. Some of those dogs were OTCH dogs too as people were bringing their obed dogs into the new Rally venue. Rally is won with fast and accurate. That silly little BC from the local pound was all that. [ sad typing this as she is now 14 with kidney failure and some dementia ]

Training for accuracy begins at the start. I don't always get it consistently in the green dog though. I am certain I still have plenty to learn. I was asking a person about those perfect scores in obedience. She said it takes a certain dog. I think there is something to that. 

It really helps to train around positive people who have the same goals and are willing to help. So much depends on the handler being clear and consistent, I need someone to call me out on that. I train for the best I can get. I was told that training is a lot of work anyway, so might as well train right from the beginning if I am putting in the time. I took that to heart. 

I did just go ahead and plow through the CD with Soleil so we can get to Open and give Utility a go. Hopefully we can get it accomplished. 

HIT does often come from Novice. Soleil was my first dog to get that with. High Combined is the one that must come from the Open+Utility classes.


----------



## gsdheeler (Apr 12, 2010)

I'm starting my 15m old girl in Rally novice next month and will move up to advanced asap. She's not ready for regular Novice.
I feel rally is a good place just to get a young dog out. I want to get rally done and out of the way before I start her in Novice. I think heeling, which lets face it is in all of regular Obed. is a lot differant in Rally than reg Obed. Courses are not bad for small dogs for the Lg dogs it's 3 strides to each station. For heeling I want my dog MOVING, with such short distances between stations it's hard to keep her from pacing, which is what I do not want in heeling.


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The training mantra from my friend, AKC Rally Judge - Never reward incorrect position - only what you want! 

I have been taught, that from the beginning, you only reward correct heel position, correct front position - that rewarding it when it is crooked imprints crooked. I think that the AKC folk I have trained with are MUCH more anal about correct position than the schutzhund people...and when I go to an AKC obedience show, I am amazed by the sloppy work!!! The last time I entered, and qualifed, in 4th place in a class of 30+ dogs, all 4 dogs in front of me wandered in their heeling, stalled at the turns, perusing the audience (very very tight quarters) and sat slowly and crooked, ambled in their recalls and one even forgot to front, immediately going to heel position from the recall. 

I showed Basha, Schh3, IPO3 who has that tight wrapped heeling with prancing, head up and locked in turns, fast recall and correct straight front and finish - we got 185 points.... thought I won the class going back in!!!!! The judge stopped me and said how sharp an obedience dog she was - but every single point we lost was for crowding in heeling! I may have said something like "HUH???????? you like them wandering around the ring better????" And vowed not to do anymore AKC titles because I really think that the judging was ridiculous!!!!

Lee


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

The style of heeling is different in AKC. If the dog crowds and bumps, the chances are points are going to be taken. Wrapping is out of position in AKC rules. Different judges may do differently in how much is deducted. My Gala was tight in heeling and forged because the position in schutzhund is different. I never was upset that my happy girl lost points for it. I knew the rules were different. The heeling dogs who are top obedience winners AKC are not all over the place in heeling, for sure.
I didn't find the judging in AKC ridiculous as it is a different venue from schutzhund obedience and the two do not necessarily transpose. 

I too have found the tight Rally courses difficult to navigate with a GSD. Darn that pacing almost has to show up and after all the work to keep from it in training. My girl is very much prone to pacing and she does it in Rally for sure. Other large breeds don't have the same issues as their stride is different.

A lot of different types of trainers in AKC. It attracts all sorts of training levels and skills. The really skilled ones who are placing, winning and OTCHing have very correctly working dogs and their trainers are quite aware if 1/2 point mistakes. But, the larger population is there with all sorts of dogs and come from a wide range of training skill sets.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

selzer said:


> So I can understand people going for the champion, and not doing obedience or other performance events until they get their championship, and once they do, it is such an accomplishment that especially for bitches, they do not want to wait even longer before a litter.


 GSDs are supposed to be smart, highly biddable dogs though. There is no reason that a smart, highly biddable dog can't easily learn a cue to move out and a cue to heel. Everything you teach your dog will likely be contradictory to something else you taught or want to teach. Dogs can't sit and down at the same time but no one think that if you teach your dog to down, they won't be able to sit  So many dogs of all different breeds have been shown in conformation and performance simultaneously that is obviously can be done. IME most show oriented breeders just aren't interested enough in the other stuff to train for it. 



selzer said:


> I lucked out really. But I can see why a show person might not want to jump a dog in the obedience ring if they are looking for championship points the next day. Training up to the show in obedience or agility or rally when if you injure the dog, you are out entrance fees and possibly a major. Think about that. Breed depends on who is entered, how many dogs are entered and actually show up, and who the judge is.


 In the past 4 weeks I have been to four shows with the same dog: a conformation show, a CPE agility trial and AKC agility trial. Next weekend, I'll be at a conformation show again. I don't even give the possibility of the dog getting injured between shows a thought. IME dogs are much more likely to be injured playing at home than running agility or doing a couple obedience jumps. I have only pulled from conformation for doing being sick with kennel cough and in the summer, my dogs often do agility almost every day. My 2 year old is 1/2 way to her CH and has her RN, NA, NAJ, UAG1 and first OA leg. 

FWIW the multi-venue competition is not all that uncommon in Belgians. Our national has a Versatility Award which dogs/handlers for compete in herding, agility, obedience, rally and/or tracking (at least 2 or 3 performance venues) and in breed. Versatility Award winners have sometimes been the BOB or the WB/WD. There used to be an obedience guy in Belgians who would often have a UD on his dogs before they were finished in the breed ring. That is one thing that drew me to the breed actually. It could have something to do with the fact that BSCA requires a CH and at least a CD to get an ROM (as well as CH and performance titled offspring), so more value is placed on dogs doing more than just conformation. 




selzer said:


> Everyone who has never bothered to show their dog, poo poos the ring experience of show dogs, but show dog people work a lot harder than we performance people ever do.


 I show in conformation plenty  I could take a dog from someone with no training and providing the dog has a decent temperament, have them ready to show in conformation within a couple weeks. Definitely can't say the same for any performance venue. Handling isn't necessarily easy to learn, although I have had 4Hers who were naturals and picked it up very fast. The CH title is usually not "quick and easy" due to the very subjective nature of it but the training involved is minimal compared to other venues. 



DunRingill said:


> Rally is also maybe a minute and a half long, most of it moving....even the most basic novice obedience routine is significantly longer. In Rally you can give as many commands as you need and add body language if necessary, and it's much easier to keep the dog's attention.


 ITA. My mom has an RA on her dog but no way is she ready for her CD because the dog just isn't trained to that degree of reliability.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am actually shocked that I placed 5 out of 6 times in the obedience ring with four first places. I mean, I train once a week with a dog when it is entered in classes, and that is it. No extra walks or training. They listen to me morning and evening when I am doing my morning and evening thing with all the dogs. But there is no formal training. And other people act like they are out there every day jazzing them up and working on this and that. 

Nor were my sits perfect in position, and the various exercises perfectly performed. 190? With Babs??? Three different judges, 190, 188 and 188. You obedience gurus would probably be appauled at those scores, but I was expecting to scrape by with a 171 or to NQ, after everyone's awe and admonitions about what to and what not to do in obedience, and those proper sits, and fronts and finishes. 

I really do not know whether my dogs would be robo-HIT-dogs or bored out of their skulls blowing me off if I trained them so many minutes per day week in and week out. So when I say, if I can do it, ANYONE can, and probably a lot better.

Worse yet, I have loved dogs since I can remember, but the mutts we had growing up, I couldn't train beyond SIT. In fact, dogs did not particularly like me. And my first shep was a disaster -- my fault. 

I have no clue what ya'all are talking about with the "dreaded pacing." Is the dog moving forward? Is it beside you? Do you all train in front of ballet mirrors??? 

I was very surprised to see photos of Babsy heeling nicely in rally novice with the leash looped over her ear but in perfect position, and even more surprised to see how Heidi pays attention to me while heeling next to me in the photos from that show. She LOOKED like a well-trained-dog in the pictures. 

But I begin to panic shortly after putting in my entry every single time, vow I will train them for the weeks up to the show, and am near a stroke before going into the ring. Maybe it is a form of euphoria-induced altered mood that is somewhat addictive, kind of like how people get addicted to shoplifting. Maybe I LIKE the pre-run terrors. 

I do like the ribbons, and I keep going because they keep coming. I must say that the people I trained with must be pretty good in those classes and such, that they somehow instilled the body language what was needed to get the dogs to do what they need to do in the ring when we get there. But no way has the time I spent on Babs or Heidi any more than a person generally puts into a dog to have a well-mannered dog. A couple of sessions of obedience classes in the first year, and then the occasional session of classes or single classes here and there between heat cycles and false pregnancies, and the training of younger puppies to get them ready for CGCs, RNs, etc. 

I think I stress more over the obedience ring than I do the Rally. But I still think that for me, the RAs were as difficult if not more difficult than CD. l placed on all of those legs, three blues, a red, and two yellows, though that last yellow was a three way tie for first place and determined by time. That was at the IX center in Cleveland with a healthy entry. 

I have managed both with more than one dog, I placed in both with more than one dog. I don't understand the animosity that obedience people have for rally people, people who have never done rally are quick to diss it. I suppose the same was true when agility first started up. 

I can understand why people would just stick with rally though. For one thing, how many people need a dog to jump over a jump with a dumbell in their mouth? How many people need a dog to pick up a glove, or find the dumbell they touched. But walking along side you, following your movements, staying, standing, sitting, downing on command, etc. These all improve a dog's overall heeling, and makes them easy to manage. How many of us would leave our dogs out of sight ANYWHERE for five minutes, except maybe in our own homes where they are safe. But having a dog lie quiet while another dog runs by -- that I can see happening.


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

For me, the scores are less important than the dog's attitude. I have seen dogs score in the 190s that had IMO very poor attitudes. I have seen dogs score in the 180s who had great attitudes but their owners weren't picky about crooked sits and crowding. I want to see a dog who is engaged with their handler and enjoying the work. That, to me is what reflects the best on the breed. 

Training for competition exercises isn't really about what a dog "needs" to know. I don't ask for or expect competition heeling on walks. I certainly don't have any practical application for weave poles or flyball box turns  It's about going through a process, problem solving and a working relationship between the dog and owner. For breeders, it's about learning the individual's strengths and weaknesses and in general, learning more about why certain temperament traits are important. IME breeders who haven't done things outside of conformation tend to have a very simplistic ideas about temperament. It's hard to breed for biddability, drive and soundness when the only test one knows is if the dog can learn to be a show dog and a good pet.


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

AgileGSD said:


> For me, the scores are less important than the dog's attitude.



Same here! And even tho Mike is a big doofus, no one questions whether he likes to work or not. Heck I enjoy watching him, MOST of the time anyway  He's really good at heeling and often clears the jumps by a good 8 inches. Precision? it comes and goes. but there's plenty of enthusiasm.



> Training for competition exercises isn't really about what a dog "needs" to know. I don't ask for or expect competition heeling on walks. I certainly don't have any practical application for weave poles or flyball box turns  It's about going through a process, problem solving and a working relationship between the dog and owner.


and you understand this because you've worked thru that process and done the problem solving! It's amazing what that does for the working relationship. But I find that many people who insist obedience is boring haven't gone thru that.....many quit without working thru whatever problems come up. Some people would rather knock the game than do the work. It's only boring if you make it boring. how can it be boring to spend time doing ANYTHING with your dog?



> For breeders, it's about learning the individual's strengths and weaknesses and in general, learning more about why certain temperament traits are important. IME breeders who haven't done things outside of conformation tend to have a very simplistic ideas about temperament. It's hard to breed for biddability, drive and soundness when the only test one knows is if the dog can learn to be a show dog and a good pet.


hoo boy yeah. If only I had a dollar for every breeder who insisted their dogs would do GREAT in obedience/rally/schutzhund, but they don't have time to show.....

Or the breeder that says "MY dog is trained thru Utility, but I find dog shows boring and I won't subject my dog to that"....if you don't trial, you don't REALLY know what's on the end of your lead! But they go ahead and breed them anyway, and the dogs that aren't perfect for the conformation ring (either for attitude or structure) are labeled "obedience prospects" and sold to some poor unsuspecting newbie. A few of us have been there haven't we!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, many of us have worked with "leftovers".


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have quite a few friends, who run from the conformation ring, to the rally ring, to the obed ring and on to agilty all at the same show..For me, I'd be exhausted LOL 

I have gone from obed - agility and find my dogs know the difference. And I have gotten two HIT's out of the Novice classes 

When I was really into obed, it was VERY tough to place, even in the Novice class, there were always scores of 190's with very few low scores. I was lucky to have had a dog who was an easy trainer, not alot of practice or she'd get bored..3 times we trialed and 3 times we Q'd with all scores being 190-198 in Novice. Now when I watch, I amazed at the LOW scores vs rarely ones in the 190's..

While I also don't believe it's all about the scores, it's about the dogs attitude, alot of what I see is kinda sad I am the first to admit to being rather competetive when it comes to trialing my dogs. When I trial I want to do WELL, I want my dog to do well, I have always waited to trial until I am pretty confident in my dogs ability to know what's required. I would be downright embarrassed to Q in obed with say, a 171 and get a placement with that score. I just wouldn't feel 'deserving' of it. 

Guess it's just the competetive side of me.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I want the dog to have fun. I want to have a good time with them. I think I am a little more anal about obedience and that makes it less fun for me and the dogs. Where we always have a good time in Rally, training and trialing. In obedience I have to be more aware of my body and what I do, almost moreso than the dog. I think that this too makes obedience easier though, the dogs pay attention to body language and do not get the mixed signals if you are not giving them to them. Makes for better precision and consistency.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

obedience can be boring, same ole routine, my previous obed dogs weren't real thrilled with it for just that reason, but they always pulled thru. 

I like it, I don't think I'd want to be a die hard obed person like some I've seen, but I do like the 'routine' of it. Masi seems to really like obed work, dingy as she is, but we haven't ventured into the ring thing yet, I do prefer faster paced, the unexpectedness of agility/rally tho


----------



## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Samba said:


> The style of heeling is different in AKC. If the dog crowds and bumps, the chances are points are going to be taken. Wrapping is out of position in AKC rules. Different judges may do differently in how much is deducted. My Gala was tight in heeling and forged because the position in schutzhund is different. I never was upset that my happy girl lost points for it. I knew the rules were different. The heeling dogs who are top obedience winners AKC are not all over the place in heeling, for sure.
> I didn't find the judging in AKC ridiculous as it is a different venue from schutzhund obedience and the two do not necessarily transpose.
> 
> I too have found the tight Rally courses difficult to navigate with a GSD. Darn that pacing almost has to show up and after all the work to keep from it in training. My girl is very much prone to pacing and she does it in Rally for sure. Other large breeds don't have the same issues as their stride is different.
> ...



I know the difference between Schutzhund OB and AKC....I have done 3 or 4 now to CD - and really - it is NOT that different....correct position, straight sits, fronts and finishes....biggest difference is actually the direction of the about turns.

What was ridiculous was that dogs who LEFT THEIR handlers, did not sit at stops, lagged 4 or 5 paces behind, did not front etc did not get hit on their scores as much as a dog who was happy, correct in sits, fronts, finishes, stays etc....who bumped but stayed with the handler and did not investigate the spectators or dogs out side the ring was penalized so much more stringently....sorry - I usually do very well in AKC events rarely leaving without a placing - and the scrap of 4 x 1 inch ribbon is not a big deal, but the idea of such poor training and work being rewarded over a dog who looked super except for bumping!!! just made me thorooughly disgusted!

Lee


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Sure, it was probably bad judging in that instance. I have found actually pretty good judging in my area. The bad judges generally get few assignments. I have actually been impressed with the general quality of judging over the years. If one is really awful, i make note not to show there again. One bad judge does not reflect the venue to me.

A person does not have to meet the same criteria to judge Rally only as they do to judge other classes. I have seen some strangeness in Rally. 

I have had bad judges before and it is confusing if they don't meet the usual expectatation.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I really liked the last judge I trialed under in rally because you could tell that she enjoyed Rorie's antics-it was advanced rally and Rorie ran right to the toy and threw it in the air she had a grand old time. We were disqualified-but the judge was smiling and some obedience person went by and said "I love your dog I could see my OTCH dog doing the same thing" I started with AKC because schutzhund seemed overwhelming and still does-so even if you are competing in Novice B-the people you are competing against may not have titled that many dogs. There is a huge difference between a Schutzhund 3 titled dog and someone competing for their CD-they are just begining


----------



## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

wolfstraum said:


> What was ridiculous was that dogs who LEFT THEIR handlers, did not sit at stops, lagged 4 or 5 paces behind, did not front etc did not get hit on their scores as much as a dog who was happy, correct in sits, fronts, finishes, stays etc....who bumped but stayed with the handler and did not investigate the spectators or dogs out side the ring was penalized so much more stringently....sorry - I usually do very well in AKC events rarely leaving without a placing - and the scrap of 4 x 1 inch ribbon is not a big deal, but the idea of such poor training and work being rewarded over a dog who looked super except for bumping!!! just made me thorooughly disgusted!
> Lee


Yeah I've had that experience a few times over the years....AKC, UKC, ASCA, some judges wouldn't know decent heeling if they tripped over it. Once had a judge at a specialty show take 6 points off really good heeling in Open B, because "your dog heels too close." She wasn't touching me, he just thought it was too close. This was a SHEPHERD guy, tho in the 25+ years I've been in the sport I've never seen him show a dog. Then the final insult was, he stood by during out of sight stays while the male next to my spayed girl "fell in love" with her, poking her and trying to lift her butt with his nose. His handler was mortified. Judge stood there like it was TV or something, waiting to see if my dog would get up. HA on him, she had no problem with the dog doing that (she rather liked him actually!) and she never moved. We Q'd but got a really sucky score. He THEN gave HIT to a dog from Novice that heeled with it's head down held against the handler's knee, and came to a stand still and looked around before every sit. GEEEEZ. Lost a lot of respect for his opinion that day.

Here's an ASCA Novice trial from a year ago. We got a sucky score at this one too.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

holland said:


> *Rorie ran right to the toy and threw it in the air she had a grand old time. We were disqualified-but the judge was smiling* and some obedience person went by and said "I love your dog I could see my OTCH dog doing the same thing"


:thumbup: LOL love it!


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If I remember correctly, when first beginning Rally, the judges were allowing up to 2 feet out of heel position. In was new and the goal was to not make it too high level. Unfortunately, the converse was not true and there wasn't latitude for bumping or crowding. Over time, it has tightened up and become more competitive.

For sure, the shenanigans my Novice A dog pulled are the memories than bring my biggest grin. Dogs iz dogs and wonderful humblers!


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

DunRingill said:


> Here's an ASCA Novice trial from a year ago. We got a sucky score at this one too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb_110W3kE8


Can you put your hand in your belly at AKC? That is something that in SchH would be severely penalized.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Yes, that hand position is a described acceptable position in AKC. The arm may also swing naturally at your side. You have to be consistent with your hand position throughout though. Except during the Fast where you can move your arms while running


----------



## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

DunRingill said:


> Same here! And even tho Mike is a big doofus, no one questions whether he likes to work or not. Heck I enjoy watching him, MOST of the time anyway  He's really good at heeling and often clears the jumps by a good 8 inches. Precision? it comes and goes. but there's plenty of enthusiasm.


 Jagger can get rather overly exuberant LOL Sometimes his first step or two in heeling is vertical. Boing! Boing! He can also get progressively more crooked on halts if he is too wound up. His recalls sometimes include a rather hard bump, although he's gotten better about that over time. But he definitely likes it  



DunRingill said:


> But I find that many people who insist obedience is boring haven't gone thru that.....many quit without working thru whatever problems come up. Some people would rather knock the game than do the work. It's only boring if you make it boring. how can it be boring to spend time doing ANYTHING with your dog?


 I have found the same thing. I have the dogs I do because I enjoy training. If I wasn't so interested in training, it would certainly easier to have a houseful of, I dunno Greyhounds or some other naturally well behaved but not super into training breed. 




DunRingill said:


> hoo boy yeah. If only I had a dollar for every breeder who insisted their dogs would do GREAT in obedience/rally/schutzhund, but they don't have time to show.....
> 
> Or the breeder that says "MY dog is trained thru Utility, but I find dog shows boring and I won't subject my dog to that"....if you don't trial, you don't REALLY know what's on the end of your lead! But they go ahead and breed them anyway, and the dogs that aren't perfect for the conformation ring (either for attitude or structure) are labeled "obedience prospects" and sold to some poor unsuspecting newbie. A few of us have been there haven't we!


 Been there for sure! For a time, I really wanted another Collie. My first purebred dog was a Collie, first dog I titled in obedience and agility and he was wonderful. Nice worker, drivey, loved to tug and fetch - apparently, not very Collie like at all LOL I had so many collie show breeders telling me they had "outstanding performance prospects" for me to look at. I'd go and their dogs were all sweet dogs but very low drive and the puppies never seemed all that drivey either. One breeder had me come over to look at a 4 month old puppy who didn't even get up off of his dog bed to great me and was super polite and quiet the whole time I was there. He was interested in food, she had trained him some basic behaviors but he didn't seem to have any toy drive or much "Ommph" at all. It was so frustrating that I just gave up on the idea of another collie! 

Like the ASCA video  It definitely is frustrating that judging are more forgiving of dogs who seem to hate the work then they are of overly exuberant dogs.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The video looked good, but it looked like the dog was bumping you. Probably not, but it looked like it. Still, that would not get a sucky score around here.

So far I have had only one judge I absolutely had an awful experience with. All the other judges in Rally or in Obedience have been awesome. They even NQ you with grace. People generally leave with an NQ knowing exactly what they need to work on, and with the feeling that it is certainly doable. 

I wonder if the judge was marking you down for excessive touching in between stations or excessive jumping about by the dog. I do not know. But I am amazed that even with different judges, my dogs and I are pretty consistent in our scoring. And out of boredom, many of us sit on the sidelines and judge the runs to see how close our scores are to the judge's score. 

Someday when Schutzhund is established around here, I might do it just for the ability to say, yeah, been there, done that. And then maybe I will feel differently about AKC events. But I am happy to see people trialing their dogs in any venue.


----------



## Achielles UD (May 26, 2001)

Aw man! I missed this threads beginning because I was 1000 miles away from home at the NADOI Annual Conference and Seminar (Adele Yunck!). But after reading everything, here are my thoughts/comments/observations:

GSD breeders have a minimum of 4 different camps. All camps of GSDs can be registered with AKC. (1. ASL, 2. W/EGWL, 3. BYB, 4. WGSL) In each of these camps you have a multitude of opinions and what is valued in the breed. Until all camps agree on what is important, you will never see the breed mesh into one GSD. :shrug: It is what it is and I don't see that changing anytime soon. 

So my view on "Where have all the GSDs gone?" well, they've all taken the paths they were bred for and won't converge into one all-around GSD because the people in their particular type don't want to expand into other camps. The bigger problem of GSDs not "doing it all" is, I think, the fact that when an adventurous person attempts to step out of their "camp" they are often ridiculed by then both camps (the one they started in and the one they are trying to learn/do). Where is the fun in that!?

We as German Shepherd Dog afficianados need to be more supportive of those trying a new camp. :hug: A few phrases come to mind: 

Keep your Friends close and your Enemy's closer.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.
All we need is Love
Try, Try, Try again

As to the Obed/Rally/SchH discussion:
First thing that comes to mind, KNOW THE RULES! So many that seem to be showing or attempting to show in either/both/all venues do not seem (to me) to know the rules. Of course you are not going to know where you lost points or why your happy animated dog didn't get the score you thought you deserved. It isn't all about training for the particular venue or event, but also in how you conduct yourself in the ring.

Regina, I was glad to see you posted a video of you and Mike in Novice! 
Selzer, of course she didn't get penalized for the jumping and hugging in between excercises, it is allowed.

In the video, my thoughts (I hope you don't mind! Because I think it is a lovely run really ): 
On lead: I saw a few bumps, jump, lag on right turn, last sit not quite in position. I also saw a wide-ish arc to the right before making the left turn. 
Figure 8: Mike was crowding/pushing you way too far out on the first inside post, Lag on 2nd outside turn, you adjusted your circles and pace a couple of times.
Stand: you left from further behind heel position (if I was judging would have been dinged) 
Heel Free: a few bumps & forges, sit out of position (a little behind you) Oh, and did you notice where you set up to start the heeling and the fact you drifted to your right?  that could be seen by the judge as the dog crowding.
Recall: Little crooked on the finish.
Now, overall a VERY nice run I thought and looked good! But those that don't know the rules (not you Regina  ) may have thought that looked like a nearly perfect run and couldn't find much fault with it. Those are the little things I picked up just watching from outside of the ring in one place with an at times shakey camera  Imagine what else the judge saw!

My point is that if you don't know the rules, how can it be fun? Fun to watch, fun to train for and fun to compete in with your own dogs. Not just AKC obedience either, SchH, Rally, Agility (well ok, it can be fun to watch even not knowing the rules lol). 

Ok, Rule-Knowing covered... Next!

All this talk about what's easier, Conformation, Rally, AKC Obed, Rabbit Chasing... pffft really doesn't matter does it? In the end it isn't about what is the easiest venue, but what excuses are we going to tell ourselves and others as to why *I(we/you)* are or are not doing it! 

I know mine. I don't do conformation because I don't have an endless supply of funds and I don't have an ASL dog that would at least get a glance from the judge. I piddle in SchH/PSA but not seriously because I don't have the funds to go to a nice club where a helper can train my dog and I hold the leash lol. Besides, there seems to be an awful lot of running for this Chunky chic lol. I don't do much tracking because I am lazy (though I did find that I actually enjoyed it last year when I was doing it more AKC style rather than SchH style). The lists of why I know I don't do certain sports can go on and on. 

My chosen venue? AKC Obedience. I started there. I still love it there. Never boring to me! The only way I could conceive of it being boring is an unanimated robo-dog. Otherwise, they are dogs and regardless of how much you've trained the can always throw something new into the mix (this generally correlates with which leg/title you are going for, how far the trip was, which people are watching). :wild:

Personally, I don't think anything is as hard as training/trialing for UD/UDX/OTCH. I have aspirations of a UDX (not really wanting the OTCH at this point in my life... to have to show in B classes forever ) I also believe it isn't only the training but the dog. I think Adele Yunck feels the same way as she was talking about her little border terrier getting a UD leg this weekend with a score in the 170's and her being as pleased as punch, realizing this was not a dog to be "competitive" with, but sure has fun with!

Sure every breed (and even mixes now) can do AKC Obed and Rally. But not every dog can do well or even earn the higher titles. That is what makes a GSD with a UDX or OTCH with nice conformation but not necessarily a Ch in front of their name, possibly breed-worthy. Like everything else about breeding dogs, you cannot and must not make blanket general statements about the qualifications for breeding. Decisions must be made on an individual basis of course. 

Sue said: _'I am amazed that even with different judges, my dogs and I are pretty consistent in our scoring. And out of boredom, many of us sit on the sidelines and judge the runs to see how close our scores are to the judge's score"_
My guess is you had consistent scoring because you/your dogs make the same mistakes/errors much of the time. Maybe instead of being bored and watching/judging take a more active/interest in the breakdown of the rules and scoring and it would become more fun.

I love watching and ring-side judging. It really can help you understand the venue more.

 JMHO as always....


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So after starting the heeling exercise, the dog is ALLOWED to bounce up and jump up on your arm?

In the rule book it says that you can guide the dog lightly by the collar between exercises. I did not see where it said letting the dog jump up and down and in and out of your arms is allowable. Though I admit I do not see where it would be penalized. In Rally, there is more leeway on the part of the judges, you are not allowed to touch the dog. Yes, that too is in the rule book. It is all one big exercise so that makes sense, but if a dog was jumping around like that, a judge COULD call the dog unmanageable and end the run. While they probably would not, they might knock points off, yes even prior to the start sign. Judging starts when your dog enters the ring, whether or not the rule book says that. 

As for the rules, they said they were going to change them, add more obedience to rally, and remove the honor exercise. Did that get scrapped? Needing only two judges in obedience rather than three is now the rule. So they did not scrap the whole of it. My rule book is the purple one, and that still comes up when you go to the AKC site. But I had to do the honor exercise here in March, so it seems like what has changed is not what has been proposed. 

I agree that most people do not have the rule book memorized. My previous instructor got NQ'd because when she dropped her dog on recall, she left her arm out in the drop signal. NQ. The judge told us in the sit stay, that we could lightly position our dogs, but not do something with the collar. Someone did (lift the dog off its front legs to position it) and she went off on her. 

Some people are visual learners and some are audio learners, and some have to learn by doing. I think I am in that final section. Reading the rule book, and I have, does not convey that much to me. Usually I refer to it when I have a specific question. I learn a whole lot more sitting on the sidelines and watching.


----------



## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

May be slightly off topic, but I think reviewing the judge's score sheets can help newcomers understand what mistakes are points off versus NQ. I know it helped me when I was just starting out in obedience. 

American Kennel Club - Obedience Judges Books and Scoresheets


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I know in rally, you can generally go up and talk to the judge afterwards and they will tell you where they knocked points off. 

In training classes, sometimes for the final class they do an obedience scorecard. It is helpful, as most of us cannot watch ourselves as we train.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Those score sheets are good help. Though on my last run, I had to check to see how I had possibly passed?!? Now it was a sucky score. Upper 180s. "Sucky" is a relative term when it comes to scores. I guess lower than the dog's usual performance is what I mean.

Yes, the dog can jump up to your arms, do a twist, jump up and nose a target hand, etc. By the rules, they have to be in cntrol. You can do rewarding, stress relieving or drive building little things in between. The rule about taking the dog by the collar is just to address that this is allowed if needed to move to the next exercise.

I actually got into the rules after showing a bit and boy did that help! We make all new exhibitors read them and get quizzed. I am looking for a judges seminar to go to. These are really good to attend as you will learn the finer points of how rules will be interpreted and judged. I think through handler error, I quite possibly may be the weak link on my team!

I will try to look up those recent rule changes. I don't know what passed either.

A video camera isn't cheap but they get ever more affordable. A rudimentary one is fine for runs and though I hate to watch, it is also invaluable in improving performance.


----------



## Guardyan (Aug 29, 2005)

> I am looking for a judges seminar to go to. These are really good to attend as you will learn the finer points of how rules will be interpreted and judged. I think through handler error, I quite possibly may be the weak link on my team!


I would love to go to a judges seminar - I hear they are full of good information. I can certainly relate to being the 'weak link' in the team . . . sometimes I think Helki is training me in obedience. :crazy:

The judge's newsletters also have lots of interesting OB info. 
American Kennel Club - Obedience-Rally Judges Newsletter


----------

