# Ecollar advice



## Joeydog (Sep 26, 2017)

Hello all,

I have a mini educator a few weeks now. Its becoming a real pain to fit the collar on my 6 month old gsd. I can work on having him sit calmly but its the actual contact that its the issue. It can take 15 minutes to set up up correctly. He is a short haired gsd. I read on this site wetting the gods neck can help make good contact. Is this so? How about position of the collar? Is up high under the ear the best spot. I use the longer contact points already. How about the bungee accessory for these collars? can these help? I have tested the collar and receiver multiple times and all works fine.

Thank you 
Joe


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## nimue (Oct 22, 2011)

I don't have a mini-educator but I know a lot of folks that do... for contact problems, most of them recommend a bungee collar. Ecollar tech sells them but you can find prettier ones elsewhere with a quick google search.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

You probably need longer contacts. No matter how tight their coats are, the contacts that come with any ecollar is never long enough.


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## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

I have a bungee collar that i hate. I could not get it small enough for my Dutch Shepherd. But I found this collar https://k9tacticalgear.com/collections/e-collars/products/quick-elastic-e-collar-holder that I like much better. It has a longer section of elastic that I make sure is across her throat. She has an elongated pretty soft palate. Their freight is a little high, so my friend and I just ordered a bunch for her dogs and mine. She also got the longer contacts for her Aussies. I use a Dogtra 200 something for Rossi as the receiver on my old one had the contacts too far apart for her little skinny neck. Gunny will be learning the E-collar this week. Love Larry Kohn's book and method.


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## Joeydog (Sep 26, 2017)

dogbyte said:


> I have a bungee collar that i hate. I could not get it small enough for my Dutch Shepherd. But I found this collar https://k9tacticalgear.com/collections/e-collars/products/quick-elastic-e-collar-holder that I like much better. It has a longer section of elastic that I make sure is across her throat. She has an elongated pretty soft palate. Their freight is a little high, so my friend and I just ordered a bunch for her dogs and mine. She also got the longer contacts for her Aussies. I use a Dogtra 200 something for Rossi as the receiver on my old one had the contacts too far apart for her little skinny neck. Gunny will be learning the E-collar this week. Love Larry Kohn's book and method.


Thank you for that. Yes I have read Larrys ebook. Its short but thats fine because it covers all you need.


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## Joeydog (Sep 26, 2017)

So just a little update. When I first used the collar his working level was 7. I found I had to turn it up to 40+ to make it work. It's just a bad contact with the skin. I have however discovered new contacts for the collar with a think tip designed for the thick fur. These should help me with a better contact.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I had a dogtra that needed longer points which I now question. I moved to is it ecollar technologies? the round unit its orange. The short contacts work well for my sable it's more about getting it correct for his level of arousal and where I've placed it and tightness. I prefer a stand or down for placement. I do like the ecollar but I'm timid using it I am constantly learning about my dog and how to use varies tools given the here and now.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

My dogs working level is 2 at home. Correction level at home is about a tap at 23 only have had to use 2x and two different behaviors. One was cat poop and another was prey behavior brought by over excitement with my son. 
He has quit both behaviors but I waited sometime before ever correcting.


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## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

K9 Tactical sells a collar that has a Cobra buckle and a short section of elastic sewn in specifically for e collars. I've found longer contact points a must.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

If it was me, I'd put it away for another 8 or 9 months, then see how it fits.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

I would be very careful using techniques that recommend "stimming" the dog to do a behavior and the "teach the dog to turn the collar off" stuff. 

I use the same E collar on German Shepherds with thick coats, Dutch Shepherd with a thinner coat and have no issues. I do use the longer probes and adjust the collar when I put it on a dog. It takes about 10 seconds. I have never had to wet a dog's coat to get better contact. 

@Joeydog:
*So just a little update. When I first used the collar his working level was 7. I found I had to turn it up to 40+ to make it work. It's just a bad contact with the skin. I have however discovered new contacts for the collar with a think tip designed for the thick fur. These should help me with a better contact.*

*You may be mistaking an increase in drive in the dog for poor contact from the E collar. * This is simply incorrect, that the contacts are not making contact. When a dog is out doing obedience, bite work, agility, chasing a rabbit, etc drive kicks in. Please do not mistake an increase in energy, drive or aggression as the collar not making contact or fitting properly. The length of the contacts is more than likely not the problem, the use of the E collar or technique, in this case is the problem. 

I see people misunderstanding "working level" with "correction level." 

I am not a fan of the school of using any stimulation, even low level stimulation to "teach a dog behaviors." I am also not a fan of those that say "I am teaching the dog to turn the E collar off." I googled Larry Krohn and watched a video of him working his malinois and his E collar use. Sorry, but there is a big difference in the dog when the E collar is on and when it is off. You can see the dog being stimmed and the head snap when given the down command. You can then see him have to give the dog double commands with out the E collar. 

Dogs like people can learn through pain or joy. I am not one that will ever teach a dog a behavior through compulsion. I will teach motivationally, train positively, and then and only then when a dog understands a command will I ever use compulsion. If I do need to correct, the dog has 2 seconds to perform before being given a correction. That is fair! Pure and simple. I will never correct a dog before the command and the dog has a chance to perform and that is what you see in these methods. 

I use an E collar on low level and I will adjust the level to give the proper correction depending on the dog's drive, intensity and behavior being worked. But, the dog is already trained and understands the command and behavior before any compulsion is used. 

There is a big myth and misconception that "low level stim" from an E collar is not compulsion or is not discomfort. There is also the myth about "teaching" the dog to turn the stim off is positive training and not compulsion. I'm sorry, that is wrong. If the dog enjoyed the low level stim, he would never want it turned off. If it was pleasurable to the dog, he would keep doing what ever behavior you wanted to stop. 

Just my opinion, FWIW. I've trained a lot of dogs in multiple venues and do use E collars. I am very much an advocate of E collars used properly by handlers who have experience using them.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I love Larry krohns videos. That being said I do not use the e collar for every command. I know if I tell my dog to SIT she will, so there is no need to use the e collar. If I tell her to do something she knows and she doesn’t then she will get the command repeated with stim. My cattle dog is/was very dog reactive and the e collar has helped tremendously with that. Her correction level is about a 20-25 at the most.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I am not a fan of the school of using any stimulation, even low level stimulation to "teach a dog behaviors."


When you watch the videos or read the websites, the thing that stands out to me is that there's still a leash, maybe treats, props like a place mat or something. All things that don't have any need to be combined with e to teach or train any of the things they're doing. The piece you don't need, is the e. Lets see what you get with only the e. I think e has great uses as a correction, but I think a lot of this is just using it for the sake of using it. Some want to claim great success "fixing" things with e, when the important part was as simple as consistent and structured training.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> > I am not a fan of the school of using any stimulation, even low level stimulation to "teach a dog behaviors."
> 
> 
> When you watch the videos or read the websites, the thing that stands out to me is that there's still a leash, maybe treats, props like a place mat or something. All things that don't have any need to be combined with e to teach or train any of the things they're doing. The piece you don't need, is the e. Lets see what you get with only the e. I think e has great uses as a correction, but I think a lot of this is just using it for the sake of using it. Some want to claim great success "fixing" things with e, when the important part was as simple as consistent and structured training.


I feel as though it has been a great communication tool. My cattle dog has had structured and consistent training but the prong wasn’t enough of a correction for her. The e collar on level 20 was a game changer and I can literally walk on the sidewalk past another dog now.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

konathegsd said:


> I love Larry krohns videos. That being said I do not use the e collar for every command. I know if I tell my dog to SIT she will, so there is no need to use the e collar. If I tell her to do something she knows and she doesn’t then she will get the command repeated with stim. My cattle dog is/was very dog reactive and the e collar has helped tremendously with that. Her correction level is about a 20-25 at the most.


I have only seen one of his videos. His other videos might be great. 

It is still not the method that I would use to train a dog with an E collar. I've been around dogs for a while and I have seen many different training techniques. I've been fortunate to have the ability and opportunity to train with some really successful trainers. I've been to the E collar training seminars with National level bird dog trainers, who compete for $50K cash prizes in one event. I understand why they do what they do with their dogs, and what their goals are. I have seen people develop a great working relationship with their dogs and others that have ruined their dogs. 

When I read threads like this I become concerned. It's one thing for a "pro" with years of experience using an E collar and continuously "stimming" their dog to get a behavior or for the dog to "learn" a command. It is a completely different thing for a novice to watch a video, go to a website and try to learn or use these techniques themselves. It is not my choice of technique to train a dog. 

I see many posters mentioning the correction levels they use. I can not say that a 20 is a harsh correction or a low level correction with out seeing get dog work. Larry Krohn was at a 6 and his dog head snapped pretty good in the video I saw. The OP mentioned going to a 40, that could be low level for his dog or too high. I've seen dogs respond to a 10 and other handlers go to a 127 with a dogtra collar to get a result. Again, it depends on the dog, it's level of drive, it's hardness and the brand of collar. If anyone would like an explanation on drives and hardness and how it pertains to E collar usage I would be happy to provide one. I use a Garmin tri tronics Sport G3 collar. It goes from 0 - 16. Boru will have an ear twitch at a 2, depends on his drive and what we are doing the level will move up or down. Sometimes, it will not work at all and the collar is fitted properly. 

Correction levels depend on the individual dog and the type of collar. All dogs react differently to E collars and the levels of correction are unique to the individual dog. I use an E collar on almost all of my dogs. With some dogs it works great for dog aggression, Boomer is a good example of that. With other dogs it may not work as well. Boru responds to low level stim if I am polishing an obedience exercise. Higher levels when working in drive is another story. He will fight through the stimulation when working the out on a bite suit. It's not that the collar is not fitted properly or the prongs are too short. It is the level of drive and hardness in the dog, and a dog like him would fight through the stimulation of two collars. It is simply not the right tool in that situation to get the results I want. 

E collars can be awesome training tools, they just need to be used wisely.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

konathegsd said:


> I feel as though it has been a great communication tool. My cattle dog has had structured and consistent training but the prong wasn’t enough of a correction for her. The e collar on level 20 was a game changer and I can literally walk on the sidewalk past another dog now.


A level 20 correction, that's my point. Not guiding them with a leash, putting them on a platform, marking and rewarding with a treat, and on top of that, buzzing them on 3 or 6 or whatever. I see no purpose for the e in all that.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’ve used one of Krohn’s videos on positioning dog with positive and it worked. I don’t recall that he was using an e collar. When I went to the next class with my own trainer, he was surprised at how quickly my dog had learned positioning outside of class. I’ve used e for some things but I usually don’t need it. I want to also stress how important it is to learn to use one from a pro and to use it sparingly and correctly, only when needed. It’s like a prong, if you just slap it on and rely on the tool instead of training, your dog won’t learn and you won’t be able to stop using it to get the same result. 

Krohn is sensitive about being known as the e collar guy.

I Am NOT That E Collar Trainer


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## Joeydog (Sep 26, 2017)

Thanks for the info all. Just to clarify I have not used the e collar yet for training. I was just checking it out. On its first few fittings I started on level 1 and when I got to level 7 the dog reacted and the muscle twitched. At a later date I couldn't seem to get it to fit properly as level 10, 20 30 40 etc had zero reaction from the dog. No muscle twitch etc. I take onboard all advice and he is starting one to one training sessions towards the end of the month with a local trainer.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> Krohn is sensitive about being known as the e collar guy.
> 
> I Am NOT That E Collar Trainer


I've always found him to be a very polite, respectful, nice guy. But if you're going to put up 15min selfies lecturing on ecollars???? LOl. Whats next? Culver City really did have an "In house trainer"? Come on....


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Steve Strom said:


> I've always found him to be a very polite, respectful, nice guy. But if you're going to put up 15min selfies lecturing on ecollars???? LOl. Whats next? Culver City really did have an "In house trainer"? Come on....


Why go bringing Culver City into this?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Slamdunc said:


> Why go bringing Culver City into this?


Now that I think about, there's probably never a useful purpose to, unless we want to talk about Hal Roach. So, ya got me there Jim.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Jim-
I am always try to do better when it comes to dog training. If you have time, would you be willing to go into details of how you worked with the e-collar and Boomer's dog-aggression? I'm curious if it is similar to how I've ended up using (and not using) the collar for my reactive dog, or if there is more for me to learn! (which is probably the case). 

For the OP, I've never had problems with contacts, even with my double-coated tervuren. I tried long contacts one summer, and my dogs got sores on their necks because they swim a lot in summer and the undercoat stays damp. After that, I went back to short/regular contacts and stayed with them. 

I like a lot of what Larry says, and his book is a good intro to the e-collar basics. That said, I've also watched a lot of bird dog trainers and hunting dog trainer's videos, along with Ivan B and Bart Bellon just to get as well-rounded an "education" as possible. I think getting a handle on how bird dog/hound trainers use the e-collar in the field is a good idea for people who are e-collar training their dogs. The worst videos I see are "pet dog" e-collar rote trainers who follow a set of guidelines for every single dog and really don't have a well-rounded understanding of the use of the tool.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> I've always found him to be a very polite, respectful, nice guy. But if you're going to put up 15min selfies lecturing on ecollars???? LOl. Whats next? Culver City really did have an "In house trainer"? Come on....


What? Where? I don’t know much about him except one of his videos helped me polish the exercise I was teaching. Isn’t he in TN? I’ve seen one of his selfie videos. Reminds me of JG and I am not a fan of that guy.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I did follow the low level stim training using commands the dog already knew like you guys are talking about. I was told to do this to get them “used to the collar” I have seen these methods from Larry krohn, jeff ghallman, Sean from the good dog.

With that being said I’m certainly open to learning about new methods of e collar training . I rarely use an e collar on my shepherd, and so far only use it on my cattle dog when she starts reacting to dogs, or blatantly ignored a known command. She also would only do commands if she k ew she was getting a reward, e collar completely changed that. Just went on a hike today and she completely ignored the dog.s we came across. She has a pretty sensitive neck so hard prong corrections weren’t for her.

I’m still a total newb to e collar training.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

konathegsd said:


> I did follow the low level stim training using commands the dog already knew like you guys are talking about. I was told to do this to get them “used to the collar” I have seen these methods from Larry krohn, jeff ghallman, Sean from the good dog.
> 
> With that being said I’m certainly open to learning about new methods of e collar training . I rarely use an e collar on my shepherd, and so far only use it on my cattle dog when she starts reacting to dogs, or blatantly ignored a known command. She also would only do commands if she k ew she was getting a reward, e collar completely changed that. Just went on a hike today and she completely ignored the dog.s we came across. She has a pretty sensitive neck so hard prong corrections weren’t for her.
> 
> I’m still a total newb to e collar training.


You might want to search for Jeff Gellman and Sean O’Shea on this forum to get more information about them.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I have searched a few times and never found any bad information on them here ?


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## Brushbunny (Mar 17, 2018)

What collar do you guys recommend? I have been looking at Garmin Delta Sport XC, or Garmin Tri-tronics Sport Pro. I like the fact that they have a built in bark limiter and that I get a discount on Garmin products. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I was much more confident using the Ecollar when shown how to use it by a trainer.

I like the garmin sport pro. The collar also has a light in it which comes in handy! It has less dials for me it makes it easier to use. I had no problems with the collar. Holds up to saltwater well. They have a garmin collar with a tracker which I would love to get but pricey!


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think the major difference between "low level" trainers, and perhaps "others" is that a dog who has been taught the basic concept of "agree" and "disagree" won't need a ton of e-collar conditioning. The collar in this case is used as a "disagree" corrector (positive punishment) for an undesired behavior. And then often at a slightly higher level or whatever is effective for the dog in whatever situation they are working in. 

There is no "good" level, it is whatever has the desired corrective effect- and for sure a dog can fight through it so it may not work in every scenario. People get really hung up on "low level" training, thinking it is better somehow, but the levels depend on the dog's response, not on the owner's idea of "good".


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Any tool without a competent trainer can be misused. When I was a child, everyone used choke chains. That was the default. Before I knew better, I trained my first dog perfectly using a choke chain very sparingly. I learned to train for that dog rather than any dog. My next dog responded well to the same method, but my third dog didn't, so I switched tools. By then training had changed a lot, both tools and methods. Now, there are many different training styles. Anyone with a camera can make a video and sound professional. They target owners with popular and challenging breeds, like ours. We are all at different levels of experience and capabilities. I am working with a private trainer. He has small group classes and my dogs is learning things I never expected to teach him. We have limited training opportunities here, for a lot of reasons, so I am lucky to have found him. He uses various tools, but ultimately is very creative and most important understands dog behavior in a way I never did. It goes back to cause and effect, and knowing the breed so well, you can read signals. I used to train by reacting to what my dog did. Now I am learning to read what he will do and it has made a huge difference. I watch his posture and his ears and his muscles. I notice if he tenses up or his hair on his back moves. When we are in a volatile area where the unexpected can happen, like loose dogs, I don’t take my eyes off him except to scan the area. My trainer also taught me to be aware of everything my dog sees. To watch all around, to notice if someone or their dog is behaving erratically or might do something unexpected, like lunge at us. It’s a whole different mind set. It’s not very relaxing but it has been very useful.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Muskeg said:


> Jim-
> I am always try to do better when it comes to dog training. If you have time, would you be willing to go into details of how you worked with the e-collar and Boomer's dog-aggression? I'm curious if it is similar to how I've ended up using (and not using) the collar for my reactive dog, or if there is more for me to learn! (which is probably the case).


 @Muskeg,
Here is how I use the E collar, it is probably similar to how you use the E collar.

I spend time conditioning my dogs to the E collar. They wear it for a couple of weeks with it turned off during training. Then I find the stimulation level where the dog first feels the stim. I then begin training with the collar paired with leash corrections. I do not "stim" dogs and give commands they already know. I do not "teach" dogs to turn the stimulation off, like some trainers do. I do not give a command and automatically "stim" my dog, regardless of whether or not the dog is obeying or disobeying the command. This is what you saw in the video the OP posted. I do not "punish" my dogs for correct behaviors and obedience. 

First, I teach behaviors motivationally. With food, toys and praise. Then I train the behavior or command, again motivationally. Once a dog understands a behavior or command and has been trained to perform that command then I move to the next phase of training which is proofing. When I give a command my dog has between 1 1/2 - 2 seconds to perform that command. For example, all of my dogs know what "sit" means. If I tell one of my dogs to sit, I expect their butt to be going to the ground with in a 2 seconds. If the dog does not do that, it is disobedience ad I will correct my dogs for disobedience. I do not like to repeat commands, I say the command once and then will enforce the command within 2 seconds or less. Two seconds is a fair time frame, it gives the dog plenty of time to hear, process and perform the command. 

I will not use an E collar to teach a dog to sit, down or recall. I will not use compulsion to teach a recall or any other command. I will never use an E collar stimulation to teach a dog to sit combined with pops with the leash as some E collar trainers recommend. I will never use an E collar to teach a dog to recall and "turn" the Stimulation off as some goofy websites or trainers recommend. 

I use the E collar to correct disobedience and the level of the correction varies depending on the infraction and the hardness level and drive of the dog. I use a prong collar for training on all my dogs, I can adjust the level of correction with the prong from a mere tap, to a much stronger correction. When I start training wth the E collar I pair low level corrections with corrections I give with the prong collar. I absolutely want the dog to know that the E collar correction is coming from me. It is not a secret and the dog knows what it did wrong and why it was corrected. 

With Boomer I have zero tolerance for dog aggression, simply put "avoidance" can be a good thing at times. He is a strong, hard dog and is dog aggressive. I taught him at 6 months old that he was not allowed to bark at dogs or show any aggression to dogs. I was at SchH / IPO training he reacted to a dog and was corrected strongly. He immediately learned that dog aggressive behavior would not be tolerated. 

What is important to realize for most folks is the "hardness level" of their dog and the appropriate level of correction for their dog. On my scale of hardness (0-10), Boomer is about an 8. That is a fairly hard dog, not the hardest dog I've ever seen but pretty hard. Hardness also has to do with resiliency and the ability to take a correction and bounce back into drive unphased. When in drive, Boomer is even harder. A good correction has to higher than the drive level. Correcting Boomer and 6 or 7 would be nagging, an 8 would be marginally effective. The correction would have to be at a level higher than his hardness level of 8 for example. 

The other thing for people to keep in mind is that after every correction, the instant the dog is correct the level of praise and reward must be higher than the correction. If the dog is corrected at a 9, in the dog's mind, the level of praise and reward must be off the charts for that dog. 

So what did I do for Boomer's dog aggression, first I gave him something to do. Like a "watch me" command or heel. If he decides to bark at or even look at another dog, when I have given a "watch me" he will be corrected strongly for disobedience. The correction is hard enough, one time to guarantee he will obey and will instantly stop the undesirable behavior. I will correct him strongly with either a prong or E collar for any sign of dog aggression. The tool doesn't matter, he knows what both are and what they mean. I am very clear and fair to my dogs. I praise so much and so well that my dogs rarely disobey, they work for the joy of working. Because working is fun and rewarding. 

It is important to keep in mind that Boomer is a clear headed dog with little or no handler aggression. He can handle a strong correction and will not redirect at me. Boru is handled differently and the corrections are applied differently. He is also not dog aggressive.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks Jim, I'm glad I saw your response. 

I just came across this article, and think it's worth a read for those interested in "low-stim" training: https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2018/05/12/the-myth-of-low-level-stim-e-collar-training/


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Muskeg said:


> Thanks Jim, I'm glad I saw your response.
> 
> I just came across this article, and think it's worth a read for those interested in "low-stim" training: https://www.nitrocanine.com/blog/2018/05/12/the-myth-of-low-level-stim-e-collar-training/


Your welcome. 

The whole technique of teaching through stimming the dog is a technique that I would not use, recommend or advocate. I've seen some high level bird dog trainers pair the stim with a clicker and treats, saying this is positive training. Stimmimg the dog to go into a crate, even low level is aversive. Stimming and leash pulling to teach a recall, stimming and leash pops to teach a sit. There are folks with web sites devoted to this nonsense. Some novice dog owners eat this up, I suppose it is a lazy man's way to dog training. I equate it to: "the beatings will stop when morale improves!" 

One very successful bird dog trainer uses the stim and clicker technique. Yet, he has no relationship with his dogs. They are pure working dogs and if they don't perform or can't handle the pressure, he moves on to the next dog. 

Again, I use an E collar on some of my dogs. I use low level stim when tracking, however it is used differently. If my dog is tracking and stops working and starts to "critter" he may get a low level stim. It is the same as a teacher putting his / her hand on a child's shoulder who is being disruptive in class and saying "don't do that, Johnny, go back to work." A completely different approach to using an E collar. 

Novices that use this so called "low Level stim" approach, read these websites and do this on their own have no idea how much damage they may be doing. I've seen some dogs really screwed up by these methods. 

Here is the bottom line, IMHO, Low level stim or continuous stimming is aversive. It is causing discomfort, some pain and irritation. Even on low levels. Do not ever think that dogs enjoy this "low level stim" as these people would like to let you believe. If it was enjoyable, the dog would continue to work with the stim and have no desire to "turn it off." For a novice it is a very dangerous training method and has far more drawbacks than it does positives. JMO FWIW


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