# Aggressive lunging at children....



## Deuce'sMom

We have been working with our almost 3 year old neutered male and an excellent trailer - pinch collar and the whole 9 yards and we are making excellent progress with respect, obedience and eliminating the territorial aggression re people coming to the door or on our property. All this has happened in the last couple of months after I fell / screamed and my dog bit a guy who kept coming towards us regardless of the fact that I was yelling "NOOOOOO.........GOOOOOOO" A perfect storm if you will. We are working to put that behind us.

We have been extremely conscientious about all the training and I don't know whether this has all been overwhelming for him (many changes in a relatively short period of time)... or what. 

He has never liked little kids. This escalated to the wild stage today when he lunged at a little girl who was passing by us on a pathway. He was on leash - lunged at her and barked aggressively. The mother freaked out. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

A bad day for sure. No one was bitten or anything but the drama queen mother was making a HUGE deal out of it. 

So....how does one socialize a dog with children??? We don't have any grandchildren and I can't imagine any child wanting to help out with this but SOMEHOW I need to socialize him with children. Maybe he will never like kids - I don't know. And before you all go crazy on me, of course we would NEVER leave him alone with a child or off leash with one around. 

I had him at a pet store the other day and as it is spring break there were alot of children in there - no problem. He was far more focused on all the treats on offer. 

I could take him to soccer games in the area, however after today I think my gut would clench if a child came near (some bells can't be unrung!), and I do not want to scare the liver out of any child and scar them for life.

Any suggestions??


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## elisabeth_00117

Stark is reactive, although for the past 3 months, you wouldn't know it walking by him on the street.

He would bark, lunge and just 'act a fool' around people near us, kids especially and sometimes, on the very rare occassion dogs. He was mostly reactive with people coming at us, in a tight space with us and of course kids.

I don't have kids, or really know any kids so this put us at a disadvantage, just like yourself. 

Tonight, when I have more time to type, I will elaborate a little. For now I am going to copy and paste something that I wrote another member:




What really worked for Stark and I is the LAT game, better known as the "Look At That" game.

What I did was find the treat that Stark would work for which was very difficult because he is not food or toy motivated in any way (getting better with age but still not where I would like it to be) but I finally decided to use these Pedigree Marrow Bone treats - they are so unhealthy and I am pro-raw, healthy choices in treats, etc., but they worked so we use those treats for ONLY that game.

What I did was bring Stark to the park or mall parking lot. I would sit a good distance away (like, think 100 feet - so pretty far) and every single time he saw someone or another dog I would mark it with a "YES!" which is my marker word. Some people use the clicker for this but for me, managing a 85lb dog, a leash and a treat along with the clicker - nope, not going to work. So, I use "YES!" as my marker. As soon as I say "YES!" he gets the treat. This should all happen in a matter of a millasecond. He looks, I say "YES!" and treat follows.

Once he is comfortable with that, we take 1 step closer. We continue working in the same way like I mentioned above and once he is comfortable with that, we take another step closer and continue to work through the steps again. This can take days, weeks or months, all depends on your dog.

The trick is to ALWAYS have treats on you. *Every single time* he sees the thing that he reacts too he gets a treat. He may look to the people/dog/thing a few times in a minutes time but the thing is to ensure he gets a treat every time. 

One thing I do is if the person is near us like in the elevator (I live in an apartment building) or passing us in the hall is give him a large treat that will take a few chomps to get through. This way it keeps his mouth busy so he can't bark as well as keeps him calm.

Stark is at the point now where he will look at a person then immediately look at my pocket and up to my face. He KNOWS that if he looks, he gets a treat. People + Treat = good things. 

In time (hopefully in another few months as spring is coming so I am  still concerned we have some work to do - we shall see) I am planning on asking for a longer focus on the person as well as to me before the treat is given and then eventually we will fade the treat out and just work with a verbal/physical praise or pet.

Is this older man able to go for walks? If this was me and the man was willing and able, I would ask him to join you for a walk a few times. The whole time you are walking have the man treat Sage. I would tell the older man not to pet her or talk to her at first, just walk with you talking to you, totally ignoring Sage but every so often offer a Sage a treat. No talking, no touching, no eye contact, just hand out with the treat. If Sage offers a behaviour like a sniff or gets close to this man while maintaining a calm presense (watch the neck/should area for stiffness/tenseness) then mark it with your marker word or clicker and treat her yourself. No dramatic "GOOD DOG!", just mark it and treat.

Another thing that has worked for us coupled with the LAT game is trying different collars, harneses, gentle leaders, etc.. I tried the regular buckle but didn't feel secure enough (he's a big boy and I'm not as strong as him if he decides to go after something on the ice), tried the gentle leader (head halti) and that worked for awhile but I didn't like it because people would assume he would bite and he would try to get it off every second it was on. Then we tried the prong but because we use the prong in protection work (schutzhund) I found that it actually made the situations worse, when it was on he kicked into drive and it seemed to really lower his thresholds.

Then we tried the Easy Walk harness that he wore when he was just a wee puppy. The sensation of it being around his chest and the squeezing sensation it gives while tightened acts as a calming signal. I rub his chest in training to transition/calm him. So this technique worked really well. I use it upside down (grey coloured strip on his back and NOT under his belly) as it sits better and seems to give you more control with the way it is positioned (lower on the chest rather than near the neck).

Schutzhund has also helped I believe. It gives ME a boost of confidence knowing that I can handle my crazy, reactive dog. Although obedience has been a thorn on my side from day one (Stark is not a easily focused dog and lacks motivation to work) it really has enforced sit means sit, down means down, etc. in EVERY situation, even when a scary guy in a bite suit is running at you.  It has given me some direction in our training and has helped me enforce the sit means sit and do not move until I say so no matter what. Not saying it has hardened me but it has made me a more confident handler and a better leader for Stark, because he definitely needs that. He is still my goofy, silly, weirdo of a baby but he definitely needs that direction from someone calm and in control.

I work with Stark daily and I have the advantage of living in an apartment building so lots of people, kids, dogs, wheelchairs, etc. and across the street from a large mall. Plenty of people and things to work around. Distractions are a daily occurance so we work on it every time we step out our door, even going potty is a training session here. Constant exsposure, be aware of your dogs thresholds, always reward the behaviour you want and be calm. That is the hardest part.


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## codmaster

Deuce'sMom said:


> ..........
> He has never liked little kids. This escalated to the wild stage today when he lunged at a little girl who was passing by us on a pathway. He was on leash - lunged at her and barked aggressively. The mother freaked out. AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
> 
> A bad day for sure. No one was bitten or anything but the *drama queen mother* was making a HUGE deal out of it.
> 
> .......................


I do sympathize with you with a reactive dog as mine is also but only with some dogs as he does seem to like little kids, but a "drama queen" seems a bit harsh a description.

I have a big 3yo male GSD and I think I would also "freak out" if such a dog was acting real aggressively toward my young child. (or me for that matter probably)


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## Rerun

Uh...the mother wasn't a drama queen. Your adult male GSD lunged and sounded off at her child.

If you can not control him and keep him from lunging like this, then you need to muzzle him until you get this under better control.

JMHO


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## Zoeys mom

My GSD hates kids in our house as well as adults though she loves my own children thankfully. We did the LAT game which has her at 100% outdoors even without treats, but it took a long time and a ton of patience on my part. The trick is to never set him up to fail so never get close enough to a kid to solicit a reaction from your male. Start far away and SLOWLY over months work closer and closer.

However, a reactive dog is always going to be a reactive dog- it's just the way it is. While you can make a ton of progress 100% is not usually possible so know his limits. Don't walk by kids walk clear around them, go the other way if you have to, and never allow children to just run up and pet him. I don't let anyone pet my dog because even though we've made all the progress in the world she still snaps from time to time so we avoid contact from strangers and keep her confined when we have guests. Better safe than sorry


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## doggiedad

how about putting a muzzle on him
then work him around children???


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## JakodaCD OA

I think you've gotten some great advice above and things to try. 

It is definately not an overnite fix, and he may NEVER like kids, but it can be managed when your out and about. (altho keeping kids AWAY from him is something you have to be really diligent with).


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## Caledon

I second the LAT game. And I would use the muzzle as well. 

I've been lunged at by a dog and my first reaction was not very nice. If a dog lunged at my child, then my not nice response would have escalated.


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## Deuce'sMom

First of all, THANK YOU so very much to those of you who have come up with helpful suggestions - which really is what I was looking for. I will try the LAT method - it makes sense. Now all I have to do is find some food that motivates him! Perhaps a hot dog. You HELPFUL posters are VERY MUCH appreciated and I need to learn to filter the responses on this site to those that help me and ignore the rest! 

I'm not sure what is going on here, but at times I will post asking for assistance and instead end up with TWO problems - one with my dog and one with some of the, I'm sure, fabulously experienced posters who seem to delight in making posters feel even worse!

Anyway, thanks for the helpful posts.

To those of you who said the mother wasn't a "drama queen" were correct. I was venting at the entire situation and her ONGOING "oh my oh dear are you okay oh my oh dear" session. Do keep in mind my dog was NOT within touching distance of her child at any time.


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## Cassidy's Mom

LAT is great, it's from Leslie McDevitt's book Control Unleashed. What she suggests is to teach it in a low distraction environment with an inanimate object so your dog understands the "game" before you take it out and use it around a trigger. What you're doing is teaching your dog to look at something on cue and then back to you for the reward. Just marking and rewarding for looking at something else isn't truly LAT because it's not cued, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do that too - that would be counter conditioning, pairing something good (yummy treats) with the sight of something "bad" (whatever your trigger is). You'd start at a distance that your dog notices the bad thing but is okay with it and has not yet reacted. The point is to keep the dog under threshold and then gradually work closer and closer to the trigger (desensitization) as he becomes comfortable at that distance. 

Have you done any clicker training (you can use a verbal marker instead - usually "yes!")? If not, you'd want to start there. In order for LAT to really work your dog should understand that every single time he hears that marker he will get a reward and will instinctively turn back to you to get it. So you'd say "look at the kid" (some people use "where is the...." instead) to point it out to him, and when he turns his head to look, you'd click to mark it and he'd turn back to you to get the treat. To teach it at home, you can hold something behind your back, then whip it out as you tell him to LAT. Practice on other things so it's fully generalized and he understands that when you say it there's something out there in the environment that he should look for. I actually used my cats to help teach the LAT game since they were always around when I had training treats, begging for me to toss some their way, lol! 

Why this works - for one thing, staring at something that he's worried about is likely to make him go off, and LAT interrupts this behavior from a prolonged stare into a few rapid glances at it instead. Also, this becomes what Leslie refers to as a "rule structure", a familiar and predictable game that your dog understands, which can also help diffuse a tense situation - "when I see THIS, I'm going to do THAT with my owner". There is a counter conditioning aspect to it as well because when your dog sees kids he knows that it's going to be a cue to play this game with you and get yummy treats, and in the long run that will help change his emotional response to the trigger. No more fear/stress/anxiety = no need to bark and lunge. Another great thing about LAT is that instead of trying to keep your dog's focus on you when he KNOWS there's something over there that's worrisome (usually practically impossible anyway), which can be even more stressful for him, you're giving him permission to check it out on cue.

Here is a little video I did of Halo doing LAT while another dog walks past. It's not great because I'm taping it myself, but you can get the idea. I didn't have a wide enough angle to be able to show both her and the other dog in the frame at the same time, but at the end you can see the people with the dog as they walk away: 






I'm using a verbal marker because with the video camera in one hand and the other hand holding the treats and the leash I couldn't use my clicker. Also, you'll see that I miss rewarding one of her looks because I'm not fast enough, (I need a 3rd hand, lol!) and I mark and reward another look that's uncued, so it's not perfect. 

If you haven't read Control Unleashed, I'd highly recommend it. Her publisher is Clean Run and you can order from them online or from Dogwise.com.


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## goatdude

Caledon said:


> I second the LAT game. And I would use the muzzle as well.
> 
> I've been lunged at by a dog and my first reaction was not very nice. If a dog lunged at my child, then my not nice response would have escalated.


I have a child reactive female GSD and agree with the above, LAT game and muzzle. Progress will depend on the dog and your training skills. Keeping the dog away from children is also a top priority (other than muzzled training sessions) unless you want a injured child and lose everything in a lawsuit.

My goal was to "cure" her but I am realizing that this dog will never be 100% safe. So now when I see small improvements so that I can at least walk her without reacting, much, I'm happy. 

Seems that there are a LOT more of these weak nerved GSDs now. I've owned sheps since the late 70's and have know a lot of people with them. All seemed sound nerved, they would not go off when there was no threat and were safe around dog and kids. Now you hear about GSDs that snap at their own shadow. Pretty sad.


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## Rexy

Although LAT and similar exercises can have a positive effect, the dog also needs to learn consequence for lunging aggressive behaviour in my opinion. I have a 4 year old showline GSD who was an absolute nightmare with aggressive lunging and the most progress was conducted with a DD collar or slip collar air blocking the dog in a lunging episode to take the defence drive away from the dog along with reward for good behavior. It's been 2 years since my dog has had a lunge, he's ok although I would never trust him with strangers unsupervised or allow off leash interactions.

Many people advise that complusion is the wrong route to take applying a consequence, but with my dog it was the only thing that provided control and the dog learned that an aggressive lunge would result in a choke out and breathing was more important than lunging.


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## codmaster

Rexy said:


> Although LAT and similar exercises can have a positive effect, the dog also needs to learn consequence for lunging aggressive behaviour in my opinion. I have a 4 year old showline GSD who was an absolute nightmare with aggressive lunging and the most progress was conducted with a DD collar or slip collar air blocking the dog in a lunging episode to take the defence drive away from the dog along with reward for good behavior. It's been 2 years since my dog has had a lunge, he's ok although I would never trust him with strangers unsupervised or allow off leash interactions.
> 
> Many people advise that complusion is the wrong route to take applying a consequence, but with my dog it was the only thing that provided control and the dog learned that an aggressive lunge would result in a choke out and breathing was more important than lunging.


Absolutely agree! Some dogs need to learn that they are NOT in charge and also learn some manners.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Rexy said:


> Many people advise that complusion is the wrong route to take applying a consequence, but with my dog it was the only thing that provided control and the dog learned that an aggressive lunge would result in a choke out and breathing was more important than lunging.


Wouldn't have changing your dog's emotional response to the situation, so that he no longer felt any reason to lunge aggressively, also have worked? If the dog is just an out of control butthead then a sharp correction may be just the ticket for getting his behavior under control. 

But for many dogs alleviating the fear/stress/anxiety that they feel in the presence of a trigger will do the same thing. It does take longer, but once the work is done it tends to stick. No more fear = no reason for the explosive reaction, vs merely suppressing the behavior without dealing with the underlying reason behind it.


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## codmaster

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wouldn't have changing your dog's emotional response to the situation, so that he no longer felt any reason to lunge aggressively, also have worked? ........... But for many dogs alleviating the fear/stress/anxiety that they feel in the presence of a trigger will do the same thing. .....


Do you think that most dogs ractions are because they feel fear or anxiety?

Reason that I ask is that one obedience trainer that I used to use felt that virtually all of a dog's behavior was traced back to fear/anxiety. She even once told me that my male GSD was sniffing when we were practicing a long group down because he was afraid and wanted me to come back right next to him. And she really got upset at me whan I suggested to her that maybe he was sniffing because he was looking for a treat (it was indoors in a obedience club building) or maybe he was sniffing because there were a lot of previous dog smells on the floor.

Now this is the most self confident dog (the words of his animal behaviorist) that she has ever seen or that I have ever owned; so I really doubt that he was fearful because I was about 6' away. We did stop going to this trainer pretty soon after that.


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## Cassidy's Mom

codmaster said:


> Do you think that *most* dogs ractions are because they feel fear or anxiety?


No, I think that *some *dogs reactions are due to fear or anxiety. I really can't speak about most dogs because I haven't met most dogs. 

Sniffing CAN be a calming signal, used to diffuse tension, or it can be as you said - there are interesting smells around and your dog wants to check them out. Halo sniffs a lot on grass, (there are tons of geese at the lake where we walk, hence, tons of yummy goose poop on the grassy meadows), and she tends to surf the floor for dropped treats in training classes. She's a very confident dog and is not showing signs of stress, she's following her nose because it might lead to FOOD!!! In places where the expectation of finding dropped food is lower, and there's no poop to scope out, or other fascinating scents to follow, she's much more attentive to me.


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## codmaster

Thanks!


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## Rexy

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Wouldn't have changing your dog's emotional response to the situation, so that he no longer felt any reason to lunge aggressively, also have worked? If the dog is just an out of control butthead then a sharp correction may be just the ticket for getting his behavior under control.
> 
> But for many dogs alleviating the fear/stress/anxiety that they feel in the presence of a trigger will do the same thing. It does take longer, but once the work is done it tends to stick. No more fear = no reason for the explosive reaction, vs merely suppressing the behavior without dealing with the underlying reason behind it.


The underlying cause IMHO is insecurity and lungers don't give the situation a chance to see if a valid threat exists. My take on the situation with my dog is that avoiding correction enabled us to reduce distances towards the trigger where he realised that the sitaution that formally triggered his aggressive response was nothing to worry about where he gained confidence. The problem with LAT type exersizes was his lack of focus and failure to accept food reward in a state of insecuirty, it was tunnel vison upon the trigger from 50 metres away spending 12 months on that approach unsuccessfully. After two good corrections, the behaviour improved instantaneously, tenfold within 30 minutes.


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## DolphinGirl

I am doing a combination of LAT and hard correction. I am making him face his fears from a distance and work our way in with treats. However, environments change quickly....(ie...skateboarding kids come in an area they are not allowed) As soon as I read his body language, he gets a treat for remaining calm at the suddend change, or a slip lead "lift/choke" if he is focused and wont break it before Cujo sets in...


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## fgshepherd

_"I'm not sure what is going on here, but at times I will post asking for assistance and instead end up with TWO problems - one with my dog and one with some of the, I'm sure, fabulously experienced posters who seem to delight in making posters feel even worse!"_

I'm sorry people made you feel worse. I've seen that kind of thing on here before and it really is NOT very nice at all. I know how you felt when your dog flared up, mine likes to bark and whine at other dogs. It is normal to feel bad or embarrassed about your dogs behavior, just keep trying and keep training. GSD's are extremely intelligent and he'll catch on very quickly. Best of luck to you!


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## RubyTuesday

Fgshepherd, when a poster puts it out there, especially when s/he is also requesting feedback, s/he should expect varied responses. I don't see any posts in this thread that are inappropriate or 'mean'. Frankly, a remark made by the OP was both critical & belittling toward the child's mother. It is IMO, amazing, absolutely AMAZING, the sheer number of people that readily dish it then call foul when attitude is returned.


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## KZoppa

I agree with muzzling him when you're out, especially when there is that chance you would encounter a child. I also agree with working on the LAT method. Better safe than sorry with the muzzle. For sure. I think you've come a long way from that day you fell and your dog bit that guy. You've been working with him instead of discarding him like garbage so props for you. Not many people would be willing to even consider trying to work with them, much less actually doing it. As for mom.... being a mom myself, i can honestly say i probably would have gone psycho drama queen myself if a dog reacted that way towards either of my kids. Please keep in mind, his reaction could very possibly cause some fear of big dogs, GSDs especially, for that child and mom will now also have some issues if she didnt already. I can understand her reaction. I'm a big mean mama bear. NOBODY messes with my kids. Plain and simple. BUT having a dog who reacts to certain things myself, i can also see the other side. Its frustrating and stressful because you have to read everything the dog does. Every little twitch or tense muscle can mean an oncoming reaction. It can be exhausting. I honestly wish you the best of luck and heavily encourage a muzzle while in public or strange guests in your home for safety reasons. Best of luck. Sounds like you've already made great strides. A reactive dog will always be a reactive dog. You just have to be extra careful and learn what pushes them and dont push to the reactive point. I hope you're able to help him be more relaxed around kids.


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## RubyTuesday

> Better safe than sorry with the muzzle.


I muzzle Spanky, my American Bulldog, when we're out. I don't think she'd hurt anyone but I don't have the absolute confidence in her that is necessary. I hate it. People assume she's 'mean' & dangerous, but as you said, better safe than sorry.


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## fgshepherd

Hi RubyTuesday -
Yes, I guess she did put it out there, but I sort of got the feeling from her that she already felt pretty bad, and I didn't want to make her feel worse. And, the part about the mom being a drama queen, I've seen it happen myself. Actually, it's my sister who is a drama queen. If a dog barks at her or her kids, she acts as though she were being chased by a brontosaurus, so I get the part about the drama of the mom. Of course, I wasn't there and I don't know how it went down. Either way, I just hope that she keeps up the work with her pet and gets him to understand that she's in charge and doesn't need his 'help' and protection from big bad kids.


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## RubyTuesday

> Either way, I just hope that she keeps up the work with her pet and gets him to understand that she's in charge and doesn't need his 'help' and protection from big bad kids.


Absolutely!


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## tuffloud1

Deuce'sMom said:


> I was venting at the entire situation and her ONGOING "oh my oh dear are you okay oh my oh dear" session. Do keep in mind my dog was NOT within touching distance of her child at any time.


It sounds like you need to learn about human children and why parent's react the way they do when a large scary dog leaps and barks at them.

If a dog leaped and barked at my little girl, I would have said more than "oh my".

You don't sound like you have ever had children.


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## codmaster

My reaction with my son would depend a lot on how close the barking dog was and what other kind of doggy language he was demonstrating.


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