# Bummed after training today.



## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

Week 2 of puppy class & Dinozzo wasn't as barky as last week. However even with withholding dinner he had no interest in cherrios. 
I was going to bring some string cheese just in case but figured since I withheld dinner he would have enough interest. He ignored me pretty much 90% of the time. I'm confident it would of gone 110% better if I had brought the cheese/hot dog as that is what I usually use when at parks and stuff. 
I also was told no more flirt pole as he was too interested/reactive in everything else that was moving. 
Overall a very disappointing day. Feel like I looked like a bad owner. 
His only shining moment was during puppy play where he was gentle with all the puppies that were half his size. I guess I was expecting a little more from him since he is so good at home. :/
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## DutchKarin (Nov 23, 2013)

I would ignore cherrios too. Sorry but that is not really dog appropriate. Skip dinner and have some turkey dogs or cut up the Natural Balance rolls for treats. Cherrios would be incredibly boring to a dog. You need higher value rewards. Go easy on him too. Check your expectations and celebrate any little success. Like humans, he may be having an off day. 
Best.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

Yah Dinozzo loves the turkey hot dogs. Oops I wonder if this should of been in stories instead of training. My bad & sorry to any admins who might have to move this thread.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Some dogs are not into food so much.


> I also was told no more flirt pole as he was too interested/reactive in everything else that was moving.


 Why is your trainer squashing his enthusiasm? I'd want my dog to show interest in an object if the food isn't getting it. Ball or tug on a string is a great training tool for young dogs. 
Where I train the flirtpole is utilized often. Food is used for certain exercises and the prey rewards are used to engage. 
Don't get discouraged, change up your training!


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Some dogs are not into food so much. Why is your trainer squashing his enthusiasm? I'd want my dog to show interest in an object if the food isn't getting it. Ball or tug on a string is a great training tool for young dogs.
> Where I train the flirtpole is utilized often. Food is used for certain exercises and the prey rewards are used to engage.
> Don't get discouraged, change up your training!


He said something about I couldn't do it right since I was using the flirt pole by myself. Though quite honestly I might of misunderstood why he said not to use the flirt pole by myself. Also he indicated doing some obedience with the flirt pole like "sit"/"leave it" is not a good idea. I shouldn't mix obedience/play.

I had also been doing a little bit of toss with his ball & "tire". When he would bring back one toy I would say leave it. As soon as he dropped the toy I would throw the next one. They discourage playing fetch with the puppies too though "as then the dog learns it's fun to run away from their owners". 

Not quite sure how to exercise him if I shouldn't play with the flirt pole, shouldn't play fetch & shouldn't do tugging (as he is teething). At least it is getting warm enough where we can go for walks again. 

I really think it was just a matter of I should of brought the cheese/hot dogs and things would of gone so much more smoothly. Just beating myself up for not having brought it in the first place.

The trainers dogs are really great/well behaved. The trainers shows great interest in Dinozzo & they did try to give me some other food/treats that they had but it just didn't help. For much of the beginning last week he was very barky. They shook a jug filled with coins at him to break him out of it. Once they started letting us work with the dogs I was able to bring his attention to me with the string cheese. He was barky this week too, but it wasn't as bad as the week before and no jug was used this time. What I mean is he barked a lot this week too, but he settled on his own more quickly.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Everyone has bad days. It's not the end of the world. You learned a lesson this week and you'll probably improve on it next week. 

When training a puppy, find out what motivates the puppy. If he doesn't like cheerios, then he's not going to want to work for them. Boil some chicken breast and cut it up into little pieces. Cook some london broil or some other lean steak and cut that into little pieces. Bring his favorite tug toy that he only gets during training. Get something that will get and keep his attention. Dry, boring cheerios just isn't it.

And why can't you play fetch with a dog that's teething? Who told you that? If the pup likes to fetch, by all means, let him fetch.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

Lucy Dog said:


> And why can't you play fetch with a dog that's teething? Who told you that? If the pup likes to fetch, by all means, let him fetch.


We were discouraged to play fetch because then apparently the pups learn it's fun to run away from their owner. I don't see how fetch is bad when he is even more excited to run back to me with the toy. 

The tug/teething wasn't mentioned by the trainer, but I thought I recall multiple sources saying no tugging when they are teething. Or at least gentle tugging.



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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Wow...just wow. And I thought the anti tug people were silly.


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## farnln (Nov 4, 2012)

*Why did they say not to mix obedience with play?*

I am curious.


> He said something about I couldn't do it right since I was using the flirt pole by myself. Though quite honestly I might of misunderstood why he said not to use the flirt pole by myself. Also he indicated doing some obedience with the flirt pole like "sit"/"leave it" is not a good idea. I shouldn't mix obedience/play.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

Wow kind of sounds like not such a great trainer! My dog LOVES his flirt pole and tug, some of our best obedience sessions have been with them. Also if I'm having a day where I can't really get him out for exercise nothing tires him out faster then a mix of chase and obedience with his flirt pole... we also play a lot of tug!

Also dogs are carnivores! My dog would have absolutely ZERO interest in Cheerios, get him some meat girl! I agree the natural balance rolls are awesome because you can make so many small treats with them... I also like using boiled chicken or the cloud star tricky trainer treats are ok too. Anyways that trainer doesn't really sound like he knows what he's talking about, sorry!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Maybe you should look elsewhere. The statements on fetch and tug are just wrong.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Not to mention the old fashioned method of shaking a jug of coins to stop the puppy from barking. Nice, scare the puppy silent.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

Thanks all for the feedback! I think I will just stick to the usual routine at home & make sure to bring the high value treats at the next training session. I'm going to at least stick through the remainder of the classes, but then might look elsewhere for beginner/intermediate/advanced, etc.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Mixing obedience and play is the KEY to training a puppy. This trainer sounds like a total loon.

Training theories that are plain wrong set aside, the trainer doesn't sound like he's encouraging you at all. It's so important to have a trainer you mesh well with. Don't get discouraged, even though I know how easy that can be with pups. Everyone has good days and bad days- and both you and the puppy are included in that. There's no finish line to race to, so allow yourself to see what works for you guys. You know your dog best- if you feel like something is working, keep it up. You'll get there!!  


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The thing is, you are at a time in your pups life where good foundation training is important. Your trainer is squashing your puppies drive and that isn't a good way to teach or train.
I'd not be going back unless it was to do my own thing with the other dogs as distractions. I wouldn't follow that trainers methods or let him/her influence my dogs behavior at all.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

KathrynApril said:


> We were discouraged to play fetch because then apparently the pups learn it's fun to run away from their owner. I don't see how fetch is bad when he is even more excited to run back to me with the toy.
> 
> The tug/teething wasn't mentioned by the trainer, but I thought I recall multiple sources saying no tugging when they are teething. Or at least gentle tugging.
> 
> ...




Just curious, is this a sport trainer? Are you training for sport? Without seeing the actual training and knowing why the trainer said what they said, I'm not going to say they are bad. Here's why:

Fetch: If training for sport you want the dog to recall close to the handler. If every "reward" ball throw is behind the dog then the dog starts to come in further from the handler anticipating the reward behind it. Personally, I like to be the center of the game, not the end. 

Flirt Pole: Yes I know dogs enjoy it, but if the handler is doing it too much then it can become boring to the dog. Also if handler is always rewarding bad grips, or just not doing it right in general, then that can have an effect later as well.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

If you can find a schutzhund club near you ..... they all contract with "trainers" who help with the bitework but are versed in all phases. You may be able to contract with the trainer directly to do private obedience training. If you go to the club, they will want you to join and do everything.

Plus they may let you do it in the presence of the club dogs for socialization (not lets play stuff but neutral dog stuff). I did that with one dog. I came before their training for about a 30 minute session then was allowed to watch their training with my dog sitting at the sidelines and being exposed to the other dogs (obviously in a non-intrusive way)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

KathrynApril said:


> I shouldn't mix obedience/play.


Oh my!


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I think a lot of the 'pet obedience trainers' aren't always used to training a high drive, highly motivated dog like a GSD (though they should be). I definitely learned with my pup, that she is not motivated the same way a Lab might be for example. Labs are very food driven. My GSD loves her treats and works well for them, but pull out a toy, and OH MY, she can be flashy!

Cheerios aren't stinky and meaty enough. Cut up chicken hotdogs, or get something else like that that smells and tastes good to your dog. You might also skip a meal before training and just feed a smaller meal when you get home.

How many more classes do you have left? It's probably not going to be the end of the world for your dog to finish out your classes as long as your trainer isn't being unkind, but you probably won't get the best out of your dog, so it's up to you. I would look for a trainer who is better with working with a high drive dog. Maybe post your location and perhaps some people here will know of a good trainer in your area?

In the meantime, when training at home try using a toy or better treats and see how your pup responds, and you can certainly use a flirt pole on your own


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

If I had this experience with a puppy, I would drop the class. Why attend when you know their techniques are wrong and could mess up your dog? It doesn't sound like the class is helping him build confidence or build his bond with you.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

This is just a puppy obedience class with three trainers. The main trainer does schutzund with his german shepherds. He even mentioned getting the three sch titles for his one shepherd in four months time. The trainers are really nice & I can't deny that they must doing something right if they are getting a lot of titles? It's just some of the "don't do this" stuff baffles me but I'm definitely a newbie when it comes to formal training/sports.
Aside from this puppy obedience class that I just started, I have been going to the breeder since I first got Dinozzo as a puppy. I love going to the breeder for club training. They do flirt pole work with him and I get to watch them do the protection work with the older dogs. They also explain why we are doing what we are doing in each lesson.
The club training at the breeder is on the weekend so I got into the puppy class to do something during the week.

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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Find a new trainer... now! Seriously though, if I were you I would use this precious time working with a trainer that knows what they are doing.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

Now's a good a time as any to discover that everyone has their own unique style of training, with their own theories - like "don't mix OB with play" rotflmao, that's just crazy, but I suppose I have heard worse. 

I tried cheerios too, because our clicker class was going through so many treats that the usual ones I used, in that quantity, were giving my pup the runs. I chopped up hot dogs and would let the container of the 2 mixed sit overnight in the fridge, so they'd at least have an appealing smell to them. Very low value compared to dried liver or cheese, lol.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Yea I would second string cheese and cut up hot dogs - my dog at least will lose his mind with those. 

If your dog is not interested in the treats you have definitely try something else - I'm not talking steaks here but even just cheap old hot dogs, cheese, freeze dried liver, etc.

There will be some treats that you find your dog SO interested in he can't even think straight. Then you can use something of a lesser value, but while the puppy is not interested in something definitely up the ante so to speak 

And about feeling bad, dog training is a ... humbling ... experience! Don't worry, just know that by the mere fact that you are training your dog and trying to do different things you are already better than 90% of owners out there. So, keep that chin up! Keep training, and remember it's just about finding what works best for YOUR dog

Good luck!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I think you should stick with it and talk to your trainers.. There's a million other treats you can use.​
Sometimes you have to realize that in a group setting you can't just whip out a toy and get the dog amped.. or have a flirt pole flipping around. It can be disruptive to the others in the class..


Another thing and this is coming from someone who's worked in a dog training facility geared towards "pet clients" that the environment isn't always good or conducive for every dog... It can be to over-stimulating or overwhelming. And you might have to seek other options until you can get the dog more focused on you. And sometimes that comes with maturity in the dog.

​


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

G-burg said:


> I think you should stick with it and talk to your trainers.. There's a million other treats you can use.​
> Sometimes you have to realize that in group setting you can't just whip out a toy and get the dog amped.. or have a flirt pole flipping around. It can be disruptive to the others in the class..
> 
> 
> ...



I think I need to clarify. I had no flirt pole with me at the puppy obedience class. Nor did I have any toy with me. They were telling me not to do the flirt pole/play fetch at home.

When I asked the trainer what then am I suppose to do to burn his energy. He then reverted to saying do the flirt pole but no obedience when playing with it. 

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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

My comment was in general about some group classes... Not that you did or did not.. Some seem to think it's a free for all and that they can do whatever they please without consideration to others in the class..


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I've taken classes like this with most of my dogs as puppies (these dogs are now SchH titled). Luckily my pet/puppy trainer understood my goals with my dogs and never suggested that I squash their drive, nor told me what I should/shouldn't do at home in other areas of my training. In puppy class I always used food, typically Zukes minis or diced up cheese. I used the puppy class more as an opportunity for me to proof my dog's focus on me while being asked to work and didn't worry as much about training the *exact* same way as the trainer. Even dogs that go on to do SchH or competitive obedience need to be able to focus and use their brain and it's helpful to get a puppy in this mode as a youngster. The first few classes my dogs never looked any "better" than the others even though they already knew sit, down, stay, shake, heel, etc. It always takes a few sessions for them to get over being in a small room with 6 other puppies and show me what I've already taught them. I'd probably still go, but bring higher value food rewards and not worry about what the trainer says you can or can't do at home with your puppy.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

I also liked using a bag of "trail mix" treats for Paisley during puppy class - we had about 3 different kinds of treats so she never knew which one she was getting. 


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

G-burg said:


> My comment was in general about some group classes... Not that you did or did not.. Some seem to think it's a free for all and that they can do whatever they please without consideration to others in the class..


No problem just wanted to make sure. I definitely want to be considerate of the others in the class. 








Liesje said:


> I've taken classes like this with most of my dogs as puppies (these dogs are now SchH titled). Luckily my pet/puppy trainer understood my goals with my dogs and never suggested that I squash their drive, nor told me what I should/shouldn't do at home in other areas of my training. In puppy class I always used food, typically Zukes minis or diced up cheese. I used the puppy class more as an opportunity for me to proof my dog's focus on me while being asked to work and didn't worry as much about training the *exact* same way as the trainer. Even dogs that go on to do SchH or competitive obedience need to be able to focus and use their brain and it's helpful to get a puppy in this mode as a youngster. The first few classes my dogs never looked any "better" than the others even though they already knew sit, down, stay, shake, heel, etc. It always takes a few sessions for them to get over being in a small room with 6 other puppies and show me what I've already taught them. I'd probably still go, but bring higher value food rewards and not worry about what the trainer says you can or can't do at home with your puppy.


He does do well on his commands at home for sit, down, stay, leave it. Pretty much the reason I got into the puppy class was for exactly that distraction element. He definitely does need a lot of work in that area. I will be sure to bring the better treats next week. 



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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes I would go back with better treats. Don't get discouraged, it can take time. Mine typically had a lightbulb moment where they finally gave up barking or trying to get at the other dogs and started working. I also sometimes had trouble keeping them focused for a full hour long class.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

Yeah, I think having the better treats will make a big difference!


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

Woo hoo! So cheese/hot dogs definitely worked so much better! Only problem was I ran out before we were done training. Lol
He still barked some in between and when the instructor brought out his flirt pole for his pup. Main thing was I saw improvement & will keep working on it.
Thank you all again for your input!!!!!!! I <3 this forum. 

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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

KathrynApril said:


> Woo hoo! So cheese/hot dogs definitely worked so much better! Only problem was I ran out before we were done training. Lol
> He still barked some in between and when the instructor brought out his flirt pole for his pup. Main thing was I saw improvement & will keep working on it.
> Thank you all again for your input!!!!!!! I <3 this forum.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 great news! Have fun with your pup!

David Winners


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when i first start training with a pup i take private lessons.
i like having some control of the pup before joining group classes.
i don't wait for class to train around other dogs. i set up
play/training groups throughout the week.

when it comes to treating sometimes i treat. i always
praise and pet. i slowly phase out the treating.

don't get bummed with training. you have a pup. he doesn't
know anything. don't expect to much from a pup.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

He knew all commands before going to puppy class & does them well in new settings with some distractions. It's just the puppy class where he gets over excited.
I was told he is over simulated by movement. However he doesn't chase squirrels or cars & is less reactive to people by themselves. It's just dog/puppies on leashes that gets him over excited. 
Anyways definitely happy to see progress.  

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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

So today was another bad day at training. Dinozzo didn't want to go in the car/crate which is not like him. When we get to the place, the darn crate door pops off and some how manages to get stuck on his collar. He's squirming & I'm fighting against darkness to figure out how to untangle it. At one point it actually twisted his collar kind of tight. Just as I'm thinking I'm going to have to walk him inside with a crate door for a leash, it comes off.
So my heart is racing as I am sure his is too. I even tell them what happened & that I think we are both a little worked up still. However they are having every one work on getting the puppies accustomed to their feet being touched. They require us to put a hand under the collar to control them. Dinozzo gets mouthy. It didn't hurt at all but they wanted me to pull him back on his collar which just made things worse. 
At home I can do his nails fine & he has been good at the vet when being handled. I've worked at a vet so I know the importance of him being used to being handled, but I just felt like it was a step back to try to work on it with what happened outside & in a place that he's usually over excited. I probably should of just said I'm going to skip that. 
I did do my own thing after that and even got a thumbs up from one trainer as Dinozzo was heeling, sitting, laying down. 
He still is barky at the other dogs but settles at about a distance of 15 feet away or he just settles after some time...but it's around then that they call for everyone to gather up and it starts all over again.
I got asked if I was still using the flirt pole/playing fetch. And I replied honestly, "Not as much." To which he just shook his head. I understand why the instructor acted that way though. I'd probably do the same if someone didn't take my advice either, but still makes for an awkward setting.
When I practice at Petsmart he actually was doing so much better with ignoring other people/dogs so it was disappointing he wasn't the same way during training. 
Just two more weeks of this and then I'm going some where else, but after the frustration of tonight I'm debating if it's even worth it to still go. It's unfortunately not something I look forward to now.
Sorry for the rambling & thank you very much in advance if you just read all this!
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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you aren't happy with the instructor or his methods, then you are wasting your time. 
Because of the incident before you went in, I can understand why Dinozzo didn't want his collar held in the way you described the foot touch exercise. I would have opted out of that due to the crate door incident. 
If you do go again, do what is best for your dog, and don't let the instructor intimidate you or give you stressful emotions...that goes right down the leash and isn't fair to either you or your dog. I'd also write a note explaining your feelings, it can't hurt and may help the instructor in the future classes(though most are so set in their ways, they don't care what a novice thinks).


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

I have signed up for puppy classes in the past and decided that the instructor's methods were not for me. I pulled the pup out. The money is not worth the damage that can be done. You are learning some good things, mainly you are learning that you know your dog and so you need to do what you think is right for your dog. 

However, I think it is hard for you to know what is right in respect to the no fetch, no flirt pole at home, and the statement "don't mix obedience with training" if you don't understand the logic behind that request. I would ask straight out to have that explained to me. That way you can make an informed decision for your dog.

You also will want to know what your end goal is for your pup. Is it AKC competition? Schutzhund? Good pet manners? Agility and fun stuff?

For example, a puppy class that I had Minka in was teaching the stand by luring the dog forward. For Schutzhund and other competition obedience you prefer the dogs butt to pop up into a stand, not to take a step forward to the stand. So I did it my way. Then, they wanted all the handlers to sit in a circle and pass all the puppies around. I don't think that is right. Without going into detail, I can see all kinds of issues stemming from this exercise. I opted out. Yep it was awkward but so what. Then to top it off, during the puppy play the instructor didn't pay attention to how the puppies were interacting, and there was resource guarding going on (water bowls) and dominance behavior to an extreme, so I picked Minka up and said I had an emergency at home and left, never returning.

My current puppy is being trained for Schutzhund also, and I learned from Minka that encouraging dog play for a dog who is already too dog attracted (likes them too much) is not the way to go. I spent a lot of time trying to undo Minka's over-the-top desire to play with other dogs. Thru agility and schutzhund we finally got it across to her that she is working not playing. Same thing with dogs who want to meet and greet every human being they see. 

So this time around I used the puppy socialization class to assess Zarek's dog and human attitude. He was aloof but not fearful or aggressive to any of them. He would greet a puppy nicely if he was walked up to one, but had no real interest in interacting with them. He preferred to interact with me. After 3 sessions I pulled him out of the class and enrolled him in a foundation class where the puppies worked around each other and of course the human handlers without any direct interaction. That is what Zarek needs for what I have planned with him. I don't want to encourage dog play or humans feeding my dog and telling him to sit or grabbing him by the collar, etc.

On a final note, if you are tired, or the pup is upset (crate door incident) then feel free to skip training. Just like riding a motorcycle  you should only ride / train when your mind is in the moment, you are excited about training, and you and the pup are not upset by anything.

Hope this helps! Good luck!


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm going to be doing agility with my sister-in-law at a different facility & therefore will continue on with training through the new facility. Though I learned my lesson and will check them out first. I was hoping to do schutzhund and hence the training on Saturdays with a club.


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## KathrynApril (Oct 3, 2013)

So I have been working with Dinozzo daily at the parking lot at Petsmart. I am 15 parking spaces away from the entrance. He will look at other dogs, maintains a loose leash and will look back at me/take treats. Today was great no reactivity many times over till the very end At the end I ran out of treats and he got barky at a pup that was four car lengths away. I messed up that time and should of moved before he got barky.
My question is. Would people recommend I continue at the 15 car length distance for a week before trying to move closer or should I work on it longer than that before trying to move in closer. He has ignored dogs up to 10 parking spaces away and people two car spaces away if not closer.
Thanks. I also stopped going to the puppy class and will be going to a new place in March. Though hopefully by then this issue is resolved. (Wishful thinking?)

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