# Correcting down pasterns?



## jewel1231

I recently adopted a 4-5 month old GSD with down pasterns/carpel subluxation. I don't know much about her history, so I don't know if this is a result of genetics, diet, or confinement. We took her to an orthopedic vet who said that because she is so young that he thinks she has a decent chance of outgrowing it, but she is at risk of having arthritis when she is older if it doesn't self correct. I was advised to keep her on a low protein diet to slow down her growth, and add some glucosamine supplements. 

It would be really helpful if anyone could share their experiences with this and what worked/didn't work for their dog. I want to do do whatever I can for her ASAP since I'm hoping she is still young enough to get this under control.

I attached a picture of Willow that I think shows her pasterns well... how bad do you think it is? This picture was taken the day after we adopted her. As you can see from how skinny she is, I'm thinking her weak pasterns could be from a poor diet.

Thanks in advance!


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## Elaine

Maybe it's just the picture, but she doesn't look all that skinny; just normal lanky pup. Her pasterns are bad. Definitely feed the best diet you can and provide a lot of very low impact exercise, such as swimming if possible. Are there any rehab places around that you could take her for swimming? It's pretty pricey, but in this case it would be worth it.

It's very hard to tell how much she will improve with time. Her legs are pretty bad, but some dogs improve almost back to normal and others don't. If you knew what her parents were like, it might give you some idea of what to expect.

I've always wondered if wrapping the front legs for support wouldn't help. Something you could breeze by your ortho vet.


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## Lucy Dog

It's not easy to tell because of the coat, but she doesn't look skinny to me. She definitely does has weak pasterns though... no doubt about it.

I'd PM either Carmen (carmspack) or Robin (robinhuerta) about this if they don't see this thread. I know they helped out another member with this same issue not too long ago. They should be able to provide some guidance.


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## Falkosmom

My pup had this problem. I did a lot of research and of course I found plenty of conflicting information. The majority of information was inclined to low protein and high calcium. I fed him purina puppy chow. I assumed the low quality protein would balance out with the high calcium. 

I also never exercised on manmade pavements. It was always grass, dirt, swimming, anything natural.

My pup out grew it, good luck with yours.


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## Falkosmom

14 weeks









10 months


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## cliffson1

Send a PM to Carmen!!!


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## Kev

Weak pasterns aren't the same as Carpul sublaxation right? It looks like only her pads touch the ground so I'm not sure. How can you see that it's weak?


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## Anthony8858

Falkosmom said:


> 14 weeks
> 
> View attachment 17278
> 
> 
> 10 months
> 
> View attachment 17279


I remember this.

He looks terrific! 

Nice job.


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## wildo

cliffson1 said:


> Send a PM to Carmen!!!


I couldn't agree more with this! Having discussed such things with Carmen when I had my foster, I can concur that she is an amazing source for such information. Absolutely engage her!


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## Falkosmom

Anthony8858 said:


> I remember this.
> 
> He looks terrific!
> 
> Nice job.


Thanks Anthony!

I almost put him back on the plane to the breeder, but I was unsure what would happen to him. I notified the breeder to have it documented and started doing research. 

I am so glad I gave him a chance. He really is a nice dog and I like him a lot.


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## carmspack

thank you all ---- 
First of all, thanks for giving this dog a chance . She seems a little withdrawn in the picture - but I am sure that with some good food and good care she will come around and be a great family member.

These are not the worst downed pasterns that I have seen.
They don't even look so bad . Huge feet ! Toes look good and it looks like the foot has a good pad . I mention this because a lot of dogs I get to see with downed pasterns tend to also have very long open toed paper thin feet .
She seems under fed , lacking muscle. You can see it on her head which has that clingy look that a dehydrated dog would have. You can see her pelvis and her boney ridge of spine.

If you want to PM me we can look at her complete diet.

Let's start with Vitamin C . When I talk about vitamins it won't be an isolated , synthetic vitamin , but a whole food rich in that particular unit , and accompanied by trace minerals which are necessary for activation (like spark plugs) -quercitin, rutin, bioflavones , enzymes , and co-enzymes . Vitamin C is no more ascorbic acid than Vitamin E is simple alpha tocopherol. Fractionated Vitamin C does not exist in nature . 
That it was not as effective as a natural whole Vitamin C was known back in the 1930's when Szent-Gyorgi isolated crystalline ascorbic acid. Two volunteer groups were offered Vitamin C . One group was given the bright white isolate , the other a "dirty" brownish complete C .
Both groups responded . The group that enjoyed the complete synergistic form had far greater positive results.
This was recognized . You can corner a market and sell a drug . You cannot corner the market and control every red pepper, soft fruit berry, food source and be the grocer to the world . 
Vitamin C is an anti scorbatic , anti oxidant , anti inflammatory, necessary for the integrity of collagen , ligaments, cartilage, tendons. Collagen is the building block of ligaments and skin . 
Dogs are able to create some Vitamin C through their liver . This has long been held as a reason why a dog may not need supplementation with Vitamin C. When stressed through malnutrition, emotional stress, rapid growth , physical exertion , vaccinations that need for Vitamin C may exceed the ability for the body to produce it .
How to provide Vitamin C in the dogs diet through whole food -- rosehip(s) powder, camu camu, red pepper , camu camu, blueberries, raspberries . 

MSM - methyl sulfonyl methane -- available as a pure powder or in combination with beneficial glucosamine , chondroitin and sometimes an anti-inflammatory . MSM is necessary for the support of ligament and cartilage . MSM is a sulfur that is found in eggs, sunflower seeds, garlic, beef and poultry. 
Glucosamine , already mentioned provides support to ligaments and provides a cushion between joints . 
I get pig snouts from the butcher. This is a source of glucosamine . 

Silica , available in greens and grasses - nettles, dandelion greens, horsetail (shave grass) etc . is crucial for bones , ligaments,hair, nails, skin, veins .

You are able to go to the store and get these from foods .
Or you can get it in supplemental form already mixed , from "raw" organic or wild crafted whole foods - Feed-Sentials . This also has digestive enzymes, complete, complex whole food vitamin sources , phytonutrients etc.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack

okay , Nancy (Jocoyn) just reminded me in the GMO thread about soup bones. What an excellent way to get gelatin which is collagen and the proteoglycan matrix. This was talked about in Deep Nutrition and Primal Body , Primal Mind ( a paleo type diet book ).
For any animal that has been off with a tender stomach or is dehydrated or you want to mix some extra nutrition into your kibble or meat mix , a bone- broth is excellent.
This goes for human nutrition as well when consome and broth were offered as first foods on the road to recovery.

Take what ever bones you can find -- neck, beef, pork , chicken, turkey - put into big pot , cover with water , bring to boil , and then reduce to simmer. You want to concentrate that juice - so keep on simmer till 2/3's of liquid has evaporated.
*you can use marrow bones - and then toss them out 
* you can use a collection of cooked chicken bones , turkey bones -- keep the keel on as this is an excellent source for chondroitin , keep the condoyles on - chondroitin !! you can put them in with the raw bones - they all get tossed in the end.

Remove bones , toss out -- grind (they should be crumbly) and put into garden. 

Now you have a nice rich broth. Put into fridge for a day or two to let it really cool and let the gelatine settle. When you take the pot out you will have a skim of fat on tip , just pick it off and remove . The remaining broth , aspic , gelatine, will be like jello. 

Add this on to kibble , oatmeal flakes , mix with supplements , mix with your ground meat for the dog.

An outstanding source of nutrition. 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Sunflowers

carmspack said:


> okay , Nancy (Jocoyn) just reminded me in the GMO thread about soup bones. What an excellent way to get gelatin which is collagen and the proteoglycan matrix. This was talked about in Deep Nutrition and Primal Body , Primal Mind ( a paleo type diet book ).
> For any animal that has been off with a tender stomach or is dehydrated or you want to mix some extra nutrition into your kibble or meat mix , a bone- broth is excellent.
> This goes for human nutrition as well when consome and broth were offered as first foods on the road to recovery.
> 
> Take what ever bones you can find -- neck, beef, pork , chicken, turkey - put into big pot , cover with water , bring to boil , and then reduce to simmer. You want to concentrate that juice - so keep on simmer till 2/3's of liquid has evaporated.
> *you can use marrow bones - and then toss them out
> * you can use a collection of cooked chicken bones , turkey bones -- keep the keel on as this is an excellent source for chondroitin , keep the condoyles on - chondroitin !! you can put them in with the raw bones - they all get tossed in the end.
> 
> Remove bones , toss out -- grind (they should be crumbly) and put into garden.
> 
> Now you have a nice rich broth. Put into fridge for a day or two to let it really cool and let the gelatine settle. When you take the pot out you will have a skim of fat on tip , just pick it off and remove . The remaining broth , aspic , gelatine, will be like jello.
> 
> Add this on to kibble , oatmeal flakes , mix with supplements , mix with your ground meat for the dog.
> 
> An outstanding source of nutrition.
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


Would you recommend adding a cube or two to a healthy puppy's food, if he is raw fed?


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## carmspack

sure - it's all good . Even it you warmed it and added this to the raw food this would be an appetite initiator .

You can pour the liquid into a jar and scoop out with a spoon. Slightly warmed , to liquify, this is an excellent vehicle to put probiotics in and offer prior and after a meal -- add supplements to let them reconstitute and then add to meal.

I forgot to mention that skin - is good to add to broth and then remove .


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## Kev

About toes that are long and open when moving, what kind of fault does that bring for a working dog? Like what does it prevent it from functioning.


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## carmspack

Kev , same as a flat foot -- or you wearing a bad pair of shoes . A flat foot , or harefoot is a fault , and is very important to a dog that needs to cover distance over a long period of time - essential for a herding dog . Those long open toes without padding tend to get damaged , landing after a jump, rapid changes in direction . The flat foot fatigues . Remember that the majority of the dog's weight is carried on the front . Splay feet tend to go hand in hand with ligaments and tendons that are loose .


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## MaggieRoseLee

Did you see these sites?

Downed pasterns and the German Shepherd puppy

Carpal Subluxation Syndrome


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## bocron

We have a male that we got when he was about 8-9 months old. We were pretty sure (based on the history) that his pastern issue was due to crating. We changed his diet, added some Vertex and started taking him swimming multiple times every week. I'm happy to say that now at age 3 he is fine. If you really look at him, the pastern is a slightly down compared to most, but we notice it only because we were so worried about it at first.


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## Wolfgeist

Carmen is so brilliant... what a fantastic resource this community has... thank you for making an effort to share your knowledge, Carmen.


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## jewel1231

Wow, thank you all SO much for all of the replies and advice! I have been reading so much about this condition, and as a few of you mentioned, there is just so much conflicting advice that I didn't really know where to start. 

Falkosmom, thanks for posting those pictures... It's amazing how much he improved... It gives me hope that my little girl can get better.

Carmen, your assessment of Willow from the picture I posted was totally right. I took the picture the day after we got her... She was VERY scared, completely lacking confidence, and just totally under socialized. The poor girl didn't even seem to know she's a GSD. It's amazing how much she has already transformed in a week. I think having two older German shepherds around to show her the ropes is really helping her. She watches everything they do and copies them... It's absolutely adorable. The ortho vet said the same thing that you did about her lacking muscle. He said all of her joints feel very loose and that there's no muscle to hold everything in place.  I don't know what happened in her short past, but when we took her home it was as if she didn't even know how to walk. It was so strange... She didn't know how to walk on different surfaces and would fall. I suspect she was crated and didn't ever get out to develop her muscles and senses.  She's already improving but I just don't want to push it, so I've been sticking with low impact exercise, like walking on grass. I would love your advise on supplements and diet. I have been doing a lot of reading and was planning on ordering glucosamine and MSM, but didn't know about the vitamin C. I'll PM you with all the details. 

It's so nice to find a message board with people who care so much about their dogs... I have a feeling I'll be posting here a lot


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## ladyfreckles

Wow, a ton of info in this thread. Thanks Carm. Would you be okay if I PM'd you about nutrition too?

I'm having the same issue with Viking, mostly in his rear. He's cow-hocked AND down on his hocks quite a bit. He tends to slouch when standing up and tuck his rump underneath him (and I know this isn't just a steep croupe because when he actually stands properly it goes away). It's improved with time, but not as fast as I'd like.


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## PaddyD

One other thing that may have been mentioned:
Keep the nails trimmed short. A minor matter with regard to low pasterns but
every little bit helps.


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## Liesje

I watched the latest vid and really Viking did not look that cowhocked to me. He does look down on his hocks and pasterns and overall his rear assembly (from loin to toe) is not what I'm used to seeing so I'm not really sure what the real issue is, if any.


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## PaddyD

Liesje said:


> I watched the latest vid and really Viking did not look that cowhocked to me. He does look down on his hocks and pasterns and overall his rear assembly (from loin to toe) is not what I'm used to seeing so I'm not really sure what the real issue is, if any.


What you are seeing is the popular rounded spine that forces angulation. Seeing it more and more, even on the GSD pup that Cesar Millan has. Seeing it with breeders on this site who are in denial that a rounded spine exists. JMVHO


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## NancyJ

carmspack said:


> okay , Nancy (Jocoyn) just reminded me in the GMO thread about soup bones. What an excellent way to get gelatin which is collagen and the proteoglycan matrix. This was talked about in Deep Nutrition and Primal Body , Primal Mind ( a paleo type diet book ).
> For any animal that has been off with a tender stomach or is dehydrated or you want to mix some extra nutrition into your kibble or meat mix , a bone- broth is excellent.
> This goes for human nutrition as well when consome and broth were offered as first foods on the road to recovery.
> 
> Take what ever bones you can find -- neck, beef, pork , chicken, turkey - put into big pot , cover with water , bring to boil , and then reduce to simmer. You want to concentrate that juice - so keep on simmer till 2/3's of liquid has evaporated.
> *you can use marrow bones - and then toss them out
> * you can use a collection of cooked chicken bones , turkey bones -- keep the keel on as this is an excellent source for chondroitin , keep the condoyles on - chondroitin !! you can put them in with the raw bones - they all get tossed in the end.
> 
> Remove bones , toss out -- grind (they should be crumbly) and put into garden.
> 
> Now you have a nice rich broth. Put into fridge for a day or two to let it really cool and let the gelatine settle. When you take the pot out you will have a skim of fat on tip , just pick it off and remove . The remaining broth , aspic , gelatine, will be like jello.
> 
> Add this on to kibble , oatmeal flakes , mix with supplements , mix with your ground meat for the dog.
> 
> An outstanding source of nutrition.
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


And this is exactly what Grim's holistic vet recommended we do for him - so we had a nice chicken soup from a whole organic chicken and he is getting the marrow broth. after I set aside the bones after cleaning them ....though she did have us had some ACV to the mix while simmering.


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## Nigel

carmspack said:


> thank you all ----
> First of all, thanks for giving this dog a chance . She seems a little withdrawn in the picture - but I am sure that with some good food and good care she will come around and be a great family member.
> 
> These are not the worst downed pasterns that I have seen.
> They don't even look so bad . Huge feet ! Toes look good and it looks like the foot has a good pad . I mention this because a lot of dogs I get to see with downed pasterns tend to also have very long open toed paper thin feet .
> She seems under fed , lacking muscle. You can see it on her head which has that clingy look that a dehydrated dog would have. You can see her pelvis and her boney ridge of spine.
> 
> If you want to PM me we can look at her complete diet.
> 
> Let's start with Vitamin C . When I talk about vitamins it won't be an isolated , synthetic vitamin , but a whole food rich in that particular unit , and accompanied by trace minerals which are necessary for activation (like spark plugs) -quercitin, rutin, bioflavones , enzymes , and co-enzymes . Vitamin C is no more ascorbic acid than Vitamin E is simple alpha tocopherol. Fractionated Vitamin C does not exist in nature .
> That it was not as effective as a natural whole Vitamin C was known back in the 1930's when Szent-Gyorgi isolated crystalline ascorbic acid. Two volunteer groups were offered Vitamin C . One group was given the bright white isolate , the other a "dirty" brownish complete C .
> Both groups responded . The group that enjoyed the complete synergistic form had far greater positive results.
> This was recognized . You can corner a market and sell a drug . You cannot corner the market and control every red pepper, soft fruit berry, food source and be the grocer to the world .
> Vitamin C is an anti scorbatic , anti oxidant , anti inflammatory, necessary for the integrity of collagen , ligaments, cartilage, tendons. Collagen is the building block of ligaments and skin .
> Dogs are able to create some Vitamin C through their liver . This has long been held as a reason why a dog may not need supplementation with Vitamin C. When stressed through malnutrition, emotional stress, rapid growth , physical exertion , vaccinations that need for Vitamin C may exceed the ability for the body to produce it .
> How to provide Vitamin C in the dogs diet through whole food -- rosehip(s) powder, camu camu, red pepper , camu camu, blueberries, raspberries .
> 
> MSM - methyl sulfonyl methane -- available as a pure powder or in combination with beneficial glucosamine , chondroitin and sometimes an anti-inflammatory . MSM is necessary for the support of ligament and cartilage . MSM is a sulfur that is found in eggs, sunflower seeds, garlic, beef and poultry.
> Glucosamine , already mentioned provides support to ligaments and provides a cushion between joints .
> I get pig snouts from the butcher. This is a source of glucosamine .
> 
> Silica , available in greens and grasses - nettles, dandelion greens, horsetail (shave grass) etc . is crucial for bones , ligaments,hair, nails, skin, veins .
> 
> You are able to go to the store and get these from foods .
> Or you can get it in supplemental form already mixed , from "raw" organic or wild crafted whole foods - Feed-Sentials . This also has digestive enzymes, complete, complex whole food vitamin sources , phytonutrients etc.
> 
> Carmen
> CARMSPACK.com


How much of this stuff do you give? Our new pup starts out up on his pasterns and flattens out as he gets tired. We have made the bone broth/gelatin for him, but we would like to add these other things if it'll help.


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## Synne

Along the same lines as Nigel's post...Is it normal for the pups to relax onto their pasterns (so to speak) as they tire out after a play session? I was thinking that Remi was looking a little "lazy" after a big meet and greet with his "cousins". It was a big day for him and he was pretty tuckered out so I'm chalking his lazy steps and movement to that. Is that normal or maybe an indicator?


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