# Sit means sit training question



## Geminon (Oct 8, 2011)

Hey everyone have a question about sit means sit dog training. Geminon has been doing really good with his basic training, sit stay lay off down leave it the real basics. We were working with a great trainer but sadly she isn't training anymore for personal reasons and doesn't know when she will start training again. 

Going online i have found a few different places but alot of them use choke and prong collers which i dont like the idea of using. I found sit means sit online and I know they are a franchise and supposedly use some electronic collar. I called them and they were telling me how at this age his biting is a behavior issue, which i've learned by reading on the forums and other places that its something GSD puppies do alot of ... and big time! So basically I want to know would anyone recommend them should we even bother with them? 

His breeder also does training, I know he asks 750.00 for protection, but i dont remember if thats per session or in total, and i'm not sure if he does obedience as well (wasn't able to contact him today but will try again). If you've used your breeder for training has that worked out well for anyone?

I really want Geminon to reach his full potential, he's so smart and I can tell that he wants more and im not sure where to go from here. Sorry for the long post, just want as much advice as I can, as i've been learning a lot from the forums.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

find another trainer.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I'd find another trainer too. At his age I'd be doing motivational training. You can do pretty much anything you want with him - pick some stuff that appeals to you, try it, and see how he does. If you're interested in protection training, fine, but don't feel obligated to do that just because he's a GSD. There's Schutzhund, ring sports, tracking, AKC obedience, rally, agility, flyball, herding, lure coursing, dock diving, any number of fun activities you can pursue. But for most activities you'll probably need a solid foundation of basic obedience first. 

Rather than a private trainer, have you looked into group classes? If you put your city or zip code we may be able to find some places for you to try.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Personally, I don't buy into the SMS theory. However, I know two people who used the Atlanta SMS and were/are thrilled.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Sit Means Sit uses e-collar(aka zap/shock) training. I would not use them in general but I especially would not recommend using an e-collar on a puppy.


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## Geminon (Oct 8, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Rather than a private trainer, have you looked into group classes? If you put your city or zip code we may be able to find some places for you to try.


 
I would love to do group classes it just seems like I havent found any places near by, but my info is Lawrenceville, GA and the zip is 30044. Anyone know of any places to recommend?


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## Geminon (Oct 8, 2011)

gagsd said:


> Personally, I don't buy into the SMS theory. However, I know two people who used the Atlanta SMS and were/are thrilled.


 
I'm actually about 45 minutes away from atlanta so that would be the SMS branch i think i would have to use. Do you know if they had to use those collars by any chance?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Yes, that is their philosophy.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I'd find another trainer too. At his age I'd be doing motivational training. You can do pretty much anything you want with him - *pick some stuff that appeals to you, try it, and see how he does.* If you're interested in protection training, fine, but don't feel obligated to do that just because he's a GSD. There's Schutzhund, ring sports, tracking, AKC obedience, rally, agility, flyball, herding, lure coursing, dock diving, any number of fun activities you can pursue. But for most activities you'll probably need a solid foundation of basic obedience first.
> 
> Rather than a private trainer, have you looked into group classes? If you put your city or zip code we may be able to find some places for you to try.


I agree with picking what appeals to you because you are more likely to stay with it. Of course, it also has to appeal to your dog. But GSDs are so versatile that you can take any one of several directions with many of them and have success. (not all of them)
There are so many choices it is hard to pick one to pursue to the exclusion of others, at least temporarily.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Here are a few training places I think are in your area, I found these in google search or on the A.P.D.T. site so you probably will want to check the methods and etc to see if it fits what you want:

Twelve Paws

Home Page

Home Page

The Balanced Dog is a full service dog behavior and training company

Home Page

Companion Animal Behavior Consulting

Home Page

http://www.gooddogatlanta.com/

Joyce Hagan|

Also you could check Petco and Petsmart if there are any in your area, some of them offer classes.


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## Geminon (Oct 8, 2011)

Thanks so much for those links i'm going to contact them and do some research again thanks


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

I don't know your dog's age, but don't be so turned off by the prong. It is a very effective tool when used properly. I was once very concerned about it, but I've become a believer. If the day comes I feel an ecollar is needed, I'll study up and get the right training to use that, but it's, IMVHO, a step ABOVE a prong -- meaning ecollar is a far more "corrective" measure than a prong. I mean, you're talking about shocking the dog. I'm not putting it down, but for a pup? Nah. (Also assuming you're dealing with a pup here.) Research more about the prong; you may find it isn't as "evil" as you might think. When used properly, anyway.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't have a problem with low stim ecollars (Sit Means Sit methods - I never hear anyone discuss them.....shhhhhhhhh.......do you have to sign an oath of silence if you take their classes? I don't even know IF they are low stim) Everyone discusses Lou Castle's methods which is VERY low stim. Others like Ed Frawleye I think use the collar as a correction tool like they would a choke or a prong.

Or even a prong in the right circumstances...but something I am really working on not needing though training walking on lead is very tedious indeed....I would hate to be in a situation where the dog HAD to walk on lead as a pup to do his business because we can take leash walking at our own pace to do it right.

But I honestly think mastering motivational methods followed by correction once the excercise is CLEARLY known and distraction is mastered......does a lot more to deepend the bond with your dog and create an excited partner.

I did see a sit means sit trained dog and it was flawless in its precision but seemed rather robotic...but it was only a 20 minute meeting....


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> I don't have a problem with low stim ecollars (Sit Means Sit methods - I never hear anyone discuss them.....shhhhhhhhh.......do you have to sign an oath of silence if you take their classes? I don't even know IF they are low stim) Everyone discusses Lou Castle's methods which is VERY low stim. Others like Ed Frawleye I think use the collar as a correction tool like they would a choke or a prong.


Sit Means Sit uses low level stim.....supposed to use the lowest level the dog notices. The stim isn't used to tell the dog NOT to do something, but rather it's used to make the command more noticed, if that makes any sense. Sort of like punctuation to a command. 

But even at a low level, it's not my first choice especially with a puppy.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

DunRingill said:


> Sit Means Sit uses low level stim.....supposed to use the lowest level the dog notices. The stim isn't used to tell the dog NOT to do something, but rather it's used to make the command more noticed, if that makes any sense. Sort of like punctuation to a command.
> 
> But even at a low level, it's not my first choice especially with a puppy.


So is it escape training like Lou uses? The stim is low enough not to freak out or punish the dog but high enough that the dog figures out what to do to stop it? His method relies on using pressure with continuous stim (you need a good ecollar for that....not an old school one)

Either way. It is a good tool under the right circumstances if used properly. Not sure I would want it as primary. Every ecollar trainer I have ever talked with sees the ecollar as pretty much staying on the dog.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> So is it escape training like Lou uses? The stim is low enough not to freak out or punish the dog but high enough that the dog figures out what to do to stop it? His method relies on using pressure with continuous stim (you need a good ecollar for that....not an old school one)
> 
> Either way. It is a good tool under the right circumstances if used properly. Not sure I would want it as primary. Every ecollar trainer I have ever talked with sees the ecollar as pretty much staying on the dog.


Sorry for the delay in replying, didn't do much computer stuff this weekend!

It's supposed to be low-level stim, tho I've seen a few trainers who turned the collar up quicker than I'd like. Martin Deeley (field trainer) uses and teaches trainers to use low-level stim also. One difference is Lou uses continuous stim, while Martin and SMS use a nick paired with the command for most situations. Unlike traditional obedience the command is repeated (paired with the nick) until the dog is moving in the proper direction. So for example a trainer might repeat "Come!" paired with the nick several times until the dog commits to moving in your direction. If the dog is ignoring the nick (and yes, it's low enough that they CAN ignore it) you can turn it up a touch as you repeat the command. The idea is to teach the dog that you can reach him even at a distance, and you are going to keep tapping him until he complies. 

I know you know this stuff, but some don't.....many people think all e-collar training is about using high level stim to STOP a dog from doing something, but instead many trainers use low-level stim to get a dog TO do something. 

While I don't recommend e-collars to everyone, they definitely have their place in my training bag and I collar condition all my dogs. When we go on vacation there are times we go for off-lead walks in the woods, and I definitely want a way to call my dogs back quickly. One of the places we travel has a lot of wildlife including snakes, so the "reach out and touch someone" can be a life-saver! 

I do have to say that Mike lived much of his first 3 years in an e-collar, but he's a "special" case. I'm serious when I say that if it weren't for solid every day e-collar training, that dog would have been dead long ago.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Depending on where you are, you are welcome to come out here for an evaluation. We've been doing training (family pets all the way up to working K9 units) here on our property for 16 years. We do not use ecollars, however, if that is your aim. I know a few people who have used SMS and have had mixed reviews. I think much depends on the franchise you end up with.
Annette


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

There are a couple of issues with SMS. First is their founder who runs a three week school after which you are certified as a "Remote Collar Specialist." I don't know anyone who can learn to train a dog in three weeks and I know no one who can teach this in three weeks. The founder advocates using stim at a level just below where the dog screams in pain. That's not what anyone can reasonably call "low level stim." My work is done at the level that the dog first perceives. 

Some who have been to the school were training dogs before they went and so they are able to pick and choose from the material what will work and what will not. But someone who's not an experienced trainer cannot do this. Instead they'll just swallow whatever is presented. And you have no way of knowing if your trainer is one of the experienced ones or is a "three week wonder." If you do a search using my name and that of the founder of SMS, Fred Hassen, you'll find quite a few very interesting discussions. 

If you'd like to see what some others think of SMS write me privately and I'll send along some links. I'd stay as far away from SMS as I could get.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

LouCastle said:


> The founder advocates using stim at a level just below where the dog screams in pain. That's not what anyone can reasonably call "low level stim." My work is done at the level that the dog first perceives.


I dunno about that....I attended 2 seminars run by Fred and we were taught to use the level the dog first perceives. There were no dogs screaming in pain. That was 2004, so perhaps things have changed since then. 

I do agree tho, no way can anyone learn enough to be a real dog trainer after just a couple of weeks of training, no matter WHO is teaching the class. Even worse are the correspondence schools....there are even correspondence schools that will certify you as a dog groomer. Crazy.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

DunRingill said:


> I dunno about that....I attended 2 seminars run by Fred and we were taught to use the level the dog first perceives. There were no dogs screaming in pain. That was 2004, so perhaps things have changed since then.


I spent three long days with Mr. Hassen when he first got started. I've also attended one of his seminars and have had many on−line discussions with him about his methods. He has changed what he does at seminars (I don't think he's doing them any more) because he learned that people would not tolerate seeing their dogs (or his) scream in pain. But that does not affect what he, or his followers, do during private lessons or with their own dogs. I've watched as his pit bull Maddie ran from his side to bite a decoy, all the while screaming in pain. 

Here are the words of someone who attended a Hassen seminar in 2003 or 2004 describing what they saw the dogs do. 




> 1) Trying to run, especially trying to run to their owners, hitting the end of the leash and struggling to keep going, accompanied with yelping and other "vocalizations"





> 2) Jumping up on the person with the remote, ("button, button, button" got the dog down), more yelping and hitting the end of the leash
> 
> 3) Laying down, belly on the ground ("button, button, button got them on their feet), more yelping
> 
> ...


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I agree completely with LouCastle on this one. SMS is very popular in my area and actually does demos and lessons at the park down the street from my house. 
Issue number 1) Those dogs, every single time, all look terrified and completely confused!! Ears back, tails tucked, desperately trying to figure out what they need to do to not get shocked. Then when they do something right, it's heartbreaking to see how happy they are because it's not a positive reaction, more one of relief. Often these are even puppies under 6 or 7 months old. 

Issue number 2) I personally have known people through the daycare that I work at that have used SMS and it ruined their dogs. I honestly didn't know such a thing was possible but there were two dobermans, a lab, and a sweet little mix that were never the same again.(I'm sure they could be rehabbed but their owners were just thrilled to have "obedient dogs") They were panicky all the time, developed fear aggression towards the other dogs, and although they were previously very social and fun dogs, they became the definition of "velcro dog" while at daycare. They didn't want to leave our sides and not in a good way. 

The trainer in our area, I'm not sure if they're all the same people or what, will actually do private lessons, with the ecollar, in the dog park with other dogs around. He tells them that its good distraction although I have seen more than one dog fight start this way. His clients will then bring the dog to the dog park on their own, and try to control their dog with the ecollar while playing with other dogs. It's a mess every time. 

Also, I personally use the same ecollar that they hand out to clients, for recalls off of deer and other animals while hiking, and it is NOT low stim. It is a field collar. It can be low stim if you use only the tone or possibly up to level two but I personally couldn't handle it on my hand on the level 5 setting. I would find another trainer with another method as it's just my opinion that ecollars are not appropriate for teaching a dog to sit or heel. They seem like a quick fix for a lot of people, which people then try to use on their own, and thats why they've become so popular. Please explore other options!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I KNOW the level of stim Lou recommends is incredibly low .... basically when you see the ear flick or the hair move on the neck. Put it on me at that level with my more sensitive skin* and it is tingly, not painful.

*You know, looking at how dogs grab each others necks and knowing how uncomfortable a prong collar pinch is....I think there is no comparison it is very very very low. [the stim level Lou uses-like I said I have no personal experience with SMS]


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## seirios (Jan 4, 2014)

sorry to revive a dead thread but, just an FYI SMS does not use your standard "shock" collar. its not used as a means for punishment but to get the dogs attention, even on the highest setting, it is hardly more than a tingle and before anyone burns me on saying "how do you know what it feels like?" or call me abusive, i do KNOW because i wore the collar and used it on myself at the highest setting for quite a long period of time to ensure that it would not burn or cause muscle spasms. its nothing, hardly a tingling tickling sensation it actually feels good when i put it on my shoulder after a good work out. so after i used it on myself full throttle, i know my dog hardly even feels it with all the extra skin and fur that he has on his neck. my dog is my best friend and i would never do anything to hurt him or put him in a situation that he did not like and i do not regret using SMS


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

jocoyn said:


> I don't have a problem with low stim ecollars (Sit Means Sit methods - I never hear anyone discuss them.....shhhhhhhhh.......do you have to sign an oath of silence if you take their classes? I don't even know IF they are low stim) Everyone discusses Lou Castle's methods which is VERY low stim. Others like Ed Frawleye I think use the collar as a correction tool like they would a choke or a prong.
> 
> Or even a prong in the right circumstances...but something I am really working on not needing though training walking on lead is very tedious indeed....I would hate to be in a situation where the dog HAD to walk on lead as a pup to do his business because we can take leash walking at our own pace to do it right.
> 
> ...


The method they taught me was to always use the lowest stem when possible. It depends on the situation. The collar has three levels of it's own. The remote has several levels depending on which button you push. Primary button is what level the dial indicator is on, second is a plus half. So if your dial is set on a one, the primary button and 1.5 on the secondary button. 

The procedure of training a command is to start with lowest stem. The stem is increased in small increments until the dog performs the desired command or behavior. Once that is attained the stem goes back to the lowest setting again. While you work with the dog, you always start at the lowest setting. Usually, with Cruz, the only times I am above the lowest setting is when there is major distraction. Major distraction may be another dog, or something he has been highly reactive to in the past. The higher stems refocus him from the distraction back to me. I probably bounce between a one and 3 level stem setting around home and between a 2 and 6 level with major distraction outside the home. This is with the collar set on level one out of three. A 2 to 3 level stem I felt no pain but had involuntary muscle contraction. 

I have yet to observe Cruz being robotic. The two dogs of the trainers were kind of robotic, but they were performing a job for the trainer also. Cruz still retains his personality, and does not show stress in the way I've seen some described. He seems happier to me.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

seirios said:


> sorry to revive a dead thread but, just an FYI SMS does not use your standard "shock" collar.


Last I heard they were using a collar manufactured for them by Sport Dog. If this has changed, please let me know. Meanwhile, the SD *IS * a _"standard 'shock' collar."_ When you press the button, it delivers an electrical current to the dog. Many people who try them discover that even the lowest levels, are too high for their dog. 



seirios said:


> its not used as a means for punishment but to get the dogs attention,


This is nothing but clever marketing. Of course not every SMS trainer is the same, but having watched the founder of the system many times, he IS using it for punishment. 



seirios said:


> even on the highest setting, it is hardly more than a tingle and before anyone burns me on saying "how do you know what it feels like?" or call me abusive, i do KNOW because i wore the collar and used it on myself at the highest setting for quite a long period of time to ensure that it would not burn or cause muscle spasms. its nothing, hardly a tingling tickling sensation it actually feels good when i put it on my shoulder after a good work out. so after i used it on myself full throttle, i know my dog hardly even feels it with all the extra skin and fur that he has on his neck.


First, how you perceive the stim has no connection to how the dog perceives it. I know one person who does not feel the highest level of stim that an Ecollar has. But most people I know will find that level to be extremely painful. 

Second, I think that the dozens of dogs I've seen trained with SMS' methods who scream in pain every time the button is pressed, would disagree with your assessment that it doesn't hurt. The founder has toned down his methods a bit, after much criticism, both in person and on the Net. Nowadays, he works * just below * the level that makes a dog scream in pain (he used to have no problem in doing this). But anyone who can read a dog well, can seen the obvious signs of stress that these higher levels of stim bring. 



seirios said:


> my dog is my best friend and i would never do anything to hurt him or put him in a situation that he did not like and i do not regret using SMS


Lots of people like SMS. Most who know what they are doing, keep a healthy distance. Go through a three week SMS school, even if you've never before trained a dog, and you come out a "Certified Remote Specialist," authorized to set up your own SMS franchise and start training dogs. Anyone who thinks that someone can learn to train dogs in three weeks is fooling themself.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jafo220 said:


> The method they taught me was to always use the lowest stem when possible. It depends on the situation.


What you are seeing is the result of a francisee choosing NOT to follow the method of dog training that was taught at the SMS "school of dog training." They DO NOT teach to use the lowest level of stim that the dog can feel. In what situation would you train NOT using this _"lowest stim ... possible?"_ 



jafo220 said:


> The procedure of training a command is to start with lowest stem. The stem is increased in small increments until the dog performs the desired command or behavior.


Are you leaving anything out of this description? Usually the correct word for delivering current to the dog is "stim" not "stem." Unless, of course, you are you doing something different than the rest of us who use Ecollars. Are you? I only know one person who calls it "stem," he did so on a video that he made, and he's famous for his misspellings on them.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> What you are seeing is the result of a francisee choosing NOT to follow the method of dog training that was taught at the SMS "school of dog training." They DO NOT teach to use the lowest level of stim that the dog can feel.
> 
> That may be, as I only know Sit Means Sit through this "franchisee". I don't try to or pretend to know how they teach their course. If they teach it with high level stim's, then where did this instructor learn a different way? Was this a response to public criticism? Did he possibly go back and learned adjustments? I don't know. I do know what was laid out in front of me through this instructor.
> 
> ...


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

$750 a session should have your dog washing the car, cooking dinner, doing the laundry..etc...

SuperG


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

SuperG said:


> $750 a session should have your dog washing the car, cooking dinner, doing the laundry..etc...
> 
> SuperG


My dog does. doesn't yours? :laugh:


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

My experience with sms wasnt good. I called and asked if they had a puppy socialization class and they misled me and said yes. So I brought my 13 week old pup and they led me along for almost an hour before putting an ecollar on her- she had no problems but I was looking for a pupy class to socialize her. he shocked her and she didnt like it- then we let his english bulldog out for "socialization" My girl chased his big dog around pawing at her while we laughed? I thought it was ok because my girl was showing some confidence. But, My girl still hasnt learned to play at 1 year, I think she still remembers that first time and she barks and paws at dogs to play and they never like it. So in the end she never plays with dogs at the park, if she tries they avoid her so she just sticks with me.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jafo220 said:


> That may be, as I only know Sit Means Sit through this "franchisee". I don't try to or pretend to know how they teach their course. If they teach it with high level stim's, then where did this instructor learn a different way?


He might have trained dogs before he went to SMS. He may have realized that there's no reason to make a dog scream in pain or cause it undue stress and figured it out for himself, but since I don't know him, I’m just guessing. If you want to know, your best bet would be to ask him. If you do some research, even in just this thread, you'll find quite a bit of evidence that the founder uses and teaches the use of much higher levels of stim than just about anyone else in the industry. Take a look at Post #20. 



jafo220 said:


> Was this a response to public criticism? Did he possibly go back and learned adjustments? I don't know. I do know what was laid out in front of me through this instructor.


I'd suggest that after arguing with just about every other trainer on the Net who used Ecollars, that he softened his position. When he first came on the scene he was at the top 10% − 20% setting on every dog that he trained. 

Earlier I wrote,


> In what situation would you train NOT using this _"lowest stim ... possible?"_





jafo220 said:


> With my dog, in situations where he is reacting to distractions. But, it's progressed from the lowest level. This is what I was taught. Lowest level and progress upward until the desired behavior is accomplished by the dog.


I understand. Actually that's still the _"lowest stim possible"_ because the dog is distracted and will not even feel lower stim levels. How much higher this is depends on the distraction level and the dog's drives. 

Earlier I wrote,


> Are you leaving anything out of this description? Usually the correct word for delivering current to the dog is "stim" not "stem." Unless, of course, you are you doing something different than the rest of us who use Ecollars. Are you? I only know one person who calls it "stem," he did so on a video that he made, and he's famous for his misspellings on them.





jafo220 said:


> It's a slang thing. I catch flak about it all the time. Not meant to misspell or deceive. I have a tendency to spell abbreviations like I pronounce them at times when I hurry my writing. I pronounce "stim" like "stem". It's a mid western/southern mix kind of thing when pronouncing words. If you had ever talked to me in person, you'd understand. Really it's like a curse sometimes. It just comes out like that when talking and sometimes typing.


Of course you are free to use whatever words you like anyway that you chose to have them mean. But I'd suggest that if you want to facilitate communication, that you stick to the standard jargon of dog training. 



jafo220 said:


> I guess I must be doing something different than everyone else or I would not have been the recipient of this post. So what am I doing different other than misspelling stim as stem?


I don't know, that's why I asked for clarification. 



jafo220 said:


> I have no idea who or what you're referring to with videos comment. Would you be willing to enlighten me? Is there some connection you're trying to make here? I can assure you, whoever you're referring to and I are not the same people.


It was a reference to a vendor who made an Ecollar video and on his subtitles used the word "stem" when the proper term was "stim." When I asked him about it, he was quite offended. With him, it was just a spelling error and he didn't like having it pointed out.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> He might have trained dogs before he went to SMS. He may have realized that there's no reason to make a dog scream in pain or cause it undue stress and figured it out for himself, but since I don't know him, I’m just guessing. If you want to know, your best bet would be to ask him. If you do some research, even in just this thread, you'll find quite a bit of evidence that the founder uses and teaches the use of much higher levels of stim than just about anyone else in the industry. Take a look at Post #20.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response Lou. 

I can only train Cruz the way I was trained by the trainer. I did leave one important step out of my post to Jocoyn as far as the steps in the method. That has to do with praise. When the dog successfully executes the command or even the correct or proper behavior, I always praise. I have been wanting also to get started with some treating to reinforce the praise. Also another way to solidify engagement while training. I notice you already do this. I plan on reading your training techniques with those commands you have listed and incorporate them into our training at some point in the near future. I want to read as much as I can first to comprehend how it is your doing what your doing. From some of the timing basics with the remote, it sounds like what I'm doing now to a degree. What would you say is "the" critical point in your method? I know timing is crucial. Collar placement is also critical. 

As far as the collar goes. Help me understand your theory or bases of why you only use those two brands of collars. I know one aspect is that they have more settings to choose from. But this sport dog collar SMS supplied seems to be working well. Is it possible to achieve the same goals with the collar I use now?

Yes I did a glance over of your site, long before we had this present discussion. I think Jocoyn pointed me that direction awhile back. Just to be upfront.

I'll try to be more careful in spelling. I can't make any promises though. I'm not an expert trainer by a loooooooooooooong shot. I'm just a regular joe working through training this hyperactive go all the time dog. He out smarts me most of the time. He's become a pretty good boy. We let him be a lot of the time by not overusing the collar. There was a time with this dog, we simply couldn't have him out with us to relax and just socialise. His gnawing and nipping was unbearable to the point he was crated quite a bit. He effectively had no off switch but the crate. He would gobble as many treats and execute as many commands as you wanted but there was no rest and he did what he wanted to do. Until the e-collar training, he was a terror most the time. I've had several injuries directly related to this dogs behaviors and simply got tired of it. Since SMS, this dog has an off switch. The order in the house is crystal clear to him. We rarely have to use the collar in the house or backyard anymore. He is now able to spend hours not minutes with is out of his crate. Is he perfect? Not by a long shot. I wasn't looking for perfect going into this training. But we work on things daily to improve. If there is something else you can offer that's an improvement over the techniques I use now, I am all ears. Sorry about the book, just wanted to give you some history with why I took the e-collar route. 

Thanks again Lou.

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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jafo220 said:


> What would you say is "the" critical point in your method? I know timing is crucial. Collar placement is also critical.


I don't know that any single thing is _"critical."_ Timing is not crucial. In fact, timing with marker training of any kind is MUCH more critical. There, if your timing is off you may teach the wrong thing inadvertently or simply confuse the dog. With my methods, timing is important, the better the timing, the faster the learning and the clearer the communication. But if one has only average timing, learning still occurs, it just takes more repetitions for the dog to understand. On my page of myths, this appears. (In fact, it's the first one listed). 



> * 1. MYTH: You must have perfect timing, be an "expert trainer" or a “professional” to use an Ecollar.
> 
> FACT: * No one, not the best of trainers, has perfect timing all the time. Even the best trainer can only work for so long, usually a matter of minutes, before his concentration falls off and his “perfect timing” becomes merely “very good timing.”
> 
> ...


Collar placement/fit (actually contact of the points against the dog's skin) is essential with any Ecollar, so that's not specific to my methods. I'm going to make you an expert in my methods now, so pay attention. lol 

Make the dog uncomfortable. (Press the button)
Guide the dog into the desired behavior with hands and/or the leash
Make the dog comfortable. (Release the button)

That's it! That's all there is to it. When teaching new behaviors, I work at the lowest level of stim that the dog can feel in that situation/environment. 



jafo220 said:


> As far as the collar goes. Help me understand your theory or bases of why you only use those two brands of collars. I know one aspect is that they have more settings to choose from. But this sport dog collar SMS supplied seems to be working well. * Is it possible to achieve the same goals with the collar I use now? *


Not if you want to use my methods. For methods that use the Ecollar as a correction, having trained the behaviors with some other method, just about any quality (meaning just about anything EXCEPT a big box store brand) will work. But for my methods, it's essential that one be able to go WITH PRECISION to the level of stim that the dog needs at any given moment. That requires that the collar have a very large number of levels. The Dogtra has 127 and the Einstein has 100. That means that there's about a .8% − 1% difference between numbers on the dial. With brands that have, for example, 15 levels (a fairly common number) between each level there's going to be about a 7% change in stim power between levels. (In reality many manufacturers keep the differences between the lower levels smaller than this, and have bigger jumps between the higher levels in an effort to be able to be used with sensitive [to stim] dogs – but I'm confident you understand the concept). 

If you had an Ecollar that has this many levels, you would discover that (for example) that your dog, in a given setting will first notice a 20 but he WILL NOT FEEL a 19 that is only .8% to 1% lower. A 21 will produce only slightly more of a reaction, since it's only that same amount higher. But with a collar that has only 15 levels people often find that their dog does not feel a 4, does feel a 5 and that a 6 makes him jump and scream! If the distraction level in your environment increase by 'just a little' you can't go 'just a little' higher. You're stuck with a 7% jump. If you work with a collar with lots of levels you'll find that some dogs, after a little work will need to go up or down by 1 or 2 levels, about a 2% change in power. Some become sensitized and some become desensitized, there's no way to predict which way your dog will go, or even IF he'll need either of these fine adjustments. Again, if you're using a collar with 7% jumps between levels, you can't make this compensation. Typically SMS trainers don't care, they're limited by their tool of choice, (BTW the founder started with Tri-Tronics, went to Dogtra, I think tried some other brands and wound up with SD. He has no allegiance to any brand or He's more concerned with his profit margin than anything about the training or the dog's well being). 

If you're using a collar that is delivering stim that's 5% higher than the dog needs, you're causing undue stress and interfering with the learning. With pets this is not a big deal (as far as the training goes, I understand the humanity concerns) but with dogs that use their noses for a living, such as the SAR dog or the LE K−9's that I mostly work with, you can easily cause problems in the work. 

Another reason that only these brands work is that they allow the user to hold down the button, and turn the dial, thereby changing the stim level continuously, making use of The Guidance System of using the Ecollar. That involves INCREMENTALLY correcting and reinforcing the dog for small steps towards and away from the desired behavior by varying the stim level continually as the dog moves through the environment and the behavior. But that's more of an advanced method of using the Ecollar. The brands that I use have lots of levels and they allow stim to be delivered continuously as you move from one end of the stim scale to the other. Some brands don't change levels as you move the dial unless you first release the button. Then the stim is off and on again and this can cause confusion. Some brands that do allow stim changes while holding down the button, have jumps between levels that are just too large. 



jafo220 said:


> I'll try to be more careful in spelling. I can't make any promises though.


Now that I know that's all it is, it's not a big deal. I'm not the spelling police, I was just wondering if you were doing something different than the rest of us who use an Ecollar. 



jafo220 said:


> I'm not an expert trainer by a loooooooooooooong shot. I'm just a regular joe working through training this hyperactive go all the time dog. He out smarts me most of the time.


Some people think that what I'm about to say is a small point, but I disagree. At my seminars everyone takes an oath early on the first day. It goes like this. 



> I hereby swear (or affirm) that to the best of my knowledge
> .
> .
> .
> ...


This brings some laughter but it's a fact. Your dog is never going to learn multiplication tables or how to use your computer. He's never going to balance a check book (although that may be a lost art these days) and he's never going to discover a new star, or write a poem, even a crummy one. He * IS * much more instinctive than you are and he pays attention to those instincts. Add in the fact that he has his own agenda, and you have what some think is a devious nature. The last, is not a part of a dog's makeup. They do things that benefit them, not for any other reason. If you set up training such that they can fulfill their drives or such that following your commands brings them some benefit or advantage, you're gold. 



jafo220 said:


> * Sorry about the book, * just wanted to give you some history with why I took the e-collar route.


You're talking to the wrong guy about the length of your posts. Brevity has never been my strong suit. Some hate it and don't read my posts, because of it. Others appreciate my detailed explanations. I ignore the first group. LOL.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

> Another reason that only these brands work is that they allow the user to hold down the button, and turn the dial, thereby changing the stim level continuously, making use of The Guidance System of using the Ecollar. That involves INCREMENTALLY correcting and reinforcing the dog for small steps towards and away from the desired behavior by varying the stim level continually as the dog moves through the environment and the behavior. But that's more of an advanced method of using the Ecollar. The brands that I use have lots of levels and they allow stim to be delivered continuously as you move from one end of the stim scale to the other. Some brands don't change levels as you move the dial unless you first release the button. Then the stim is off and on again and this can cause confusion. Some brands that do allow stim changes while holding down the button, have jumps between levels that are just too large.


Just yesterday I was in the front yard with my dog working on recall in drive under distraction. I was chucking toys over the dog and issuing a recall. A loud mouth Yorkie came walking by on a flexi and the owner allowed it to approach my dog. I issued a recall command and stimmed my dog but the distraction of a strange dog in the yard was too great. She didn't charge or bark, but her attention was on the dog and she swung in the direction of the dog instead of heading towards me. I continued the stim, grabbed the dial and raised the stim until she changed direction towards me and then got off the button. I looked at the remote and had dialed up to 57, so I reset the level (6 out of 127) issued a DOWN command with stim, which she immediately obeyed, and went on with training. All the while the Yorkie kept up it's barrage while it's owner dragged it down the street.

Very effective communication IMO, and not something you can do with a collar that has less settings or without the continuously variable stim level.

Note: my dog was on a long line too. Safety first


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Thanks for the input Lou. I'll have look into one of the other brands of E-collars. I get it now. Hands down, which collar would you go with?


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

*David and Lou*



jafo220 said:


> Thanks for the input Lou. I'll have look into one of the other brands of E-collars. I get it now. Hands down, which collar would you go with?


Both David Winners and Lou Castle...

Which collar would you each recommend? Jade, my rescue bitch, is extremely DA. I have had her a few months and she has improved, but is not foolproof. I am a caregiver also and can't work with her as much as I would like to, perhaps an e-collar would help me reach a safety point sooner than I am able to now. I am wondering whether one of the better ones you both describe would be within my price range...

Thanks!
Susan


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I have been using the Dogtra 1900NCP for quite a while. I have 2 of them now and have never had an issue. I also like the Hawx Stretch E-strap instead of the collar that comes with them.

Many like the Einstein / E-Collar Tech collars as well. I don't care for the transmitter, but that's a very personal thing. I think I'm just so used to the Dogtra that anything else would feel weird to me.

I'm sure Lou will add his opinion too, and he has a lot of experience with both brands. 

If you are going to use the e-collar for DA issues, I would recommend reading the crittering page on Lou's site until you hate it. It's a good protocol and one that works.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

David Winners said:


> I have been using the Dogtra 1900NCP for quite a while. I have 2 of them now and have never had an issue. I also like the Hawx Stretch E-strap instead of the collar that comes with them.
> 
> Many like the Einstein / E-Collar Tech collars as well. I don't care for the transmitter, but that's a very personal thing. I think I'm just so used to the Dogtra that anything else would feel weird to me.
> 
> ...


Thanks!


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

David Winners said:


> I have been using the Dogtra 1900NCP for quite a while. I have 2 of them now and have never had an issue. I also like the Hawx Stretch E-strap instead of the collar that comes with them.
> 
> Many like the Einstein / E-Collar Tech collars as well. I don't care for the transmitter, but that's a very personal thing. I think I'm just so used to the Dogtra that anything else would feel weird to me.
> 
> ...


What is the difference between the transmitters? Button locations? Size? Just overall design? 


The Haux collar, what type of material is the collar and how does it effect positioning of I guess the "reciever"? I don't exactly know what the proper term is for that part.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

I have both the Dogtra (I think the 1900) and a 2 receiver Einstein/whatever system (K9 400ts). After several years, the battery in the Dogtra is shot and will not hold a charge. Since I now have two dogs, I elected to purchase the Einstein after looking at reviews. Plus, as I recall, the pricing on an Einstein 2 dog system was better than a Dogtra 2 dog system. I am still getting used to the Einstein (and have yet to introduce one of my dogs to the e-collar), but I like both. There are, however, differences. 

The main initial difference is the shape of the transmitter. With the Dogtra it is rectangular; with Einstein it is round. I did not like the round receiver at first as I was accustomed to the rectangular one with the Dogtra. Now that I have gotten used to it, it's just about a wash. 

Both are highly adjustable as far as stim goes - the Dogtra has settings, I believe, from 1 to 128; the Einstein from 1 to 100. Way more than the old TriTronics I had years ago that only had 7 levels. 

The bigger difference for me, and this may not be an issue with the single-dog version of the Einstein, is the buttons, and more particularly the function of the buttons. With the Dogtra, I had separate buttons for nick, continuous, and vibrate. I could make use of these features on the fly by simply hitting a different button. With the two receiver Einstein, I have to switch modes to use these separate features as the stim is controlled by the same button (for each separate receiver). Definitely not as easy to switch between nick, continuous, and vibrate on the 2-dog Einstein, but, again, this may be more a function of having two receivers and only so much space for buttons. 

The Einstein has some neat features. You can lock in your stim level so it cannot be inadvertently changed. I like this feature; my Dogtra did not have this and on occasion the setting could get inadvertently changed. On the flip side, it is a little more difficult to change the stim level on the fly (this gets even more complicated when you have two receivers!). I also prefer the rheostat of the Einstein. 

The Einstein also has, for lack of a better term, a "boost" feature wherein you can up the stim a set amount by hitting another button in conjunction with the main stim function. I like this feature, which my Dogtra did not have. I feel like this option helps offset the slightly increased difficulty of changing stim levels created by the "lock" feature of the Einstein. 

Another neat thing about the Einstein (at least the version I have), is that the receivers have a light, almost like a flashlight, you can turn on remotely. Handy when your running dogs out in the middle of nowhere in the dark! 

The receivers of the Einstein are significantly smaller than the (old) Dogtra I have; probably about half the size. 

As for the Hawx collar, I had an old version I got from Hunt 'Em Up before the name "Hawx" was used. It is essentially a collar that includes an elastic or rubber part so that the collar stretches. This helps to ensure that the contacts of the receiver are making contact while increasing comfort for the dog. Both collars for my Einstein have a similar system, although I prefer the one I bought separately for my Dogtra. 

I am by no means an ecollar wizard, but I don't think you can go wrong with either. Again, bear in mind that I am comparing a two-dog Einstein to a one-dog Dogtra . . . .


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

David Winners said:


> ... but her attention was on the dog and she swung in the direction of the dog instead of heading towards me. I continued the stim, grabbed the dial and raised the stim until she changed direction towards me and then got off the button. I looked at the remote and had dialed up to 57, so I reset the level (6 out of 127) issued a DOWN command with stim, which she immediately obeyed, and went on with training. All the while the Yorkie kept up it's barrage while it's owner dragged it down the street.


David this is the first side of the Guidance system. The second side of it would be incrementally reinforcing the recall, instead of just _"g[etting"_ off the button when your dog changed direction. 

In the situation you described, few dogs will 'slam on the brakes,' come to a complete stop and return along the same path as when moving towards the other dog at the recall command. Most will 'veer off,' taking a circular path enroute to the recall, where the dog is coming straight back, towards the handler. 

As soon as the dog slightly changes direction in this 'veering off' you could very slightly reduce the stim level, as the turn continued, you could keep slowly reducing the stim level. Keep reducing it further until, when the dog was headed straight back towards you, you _"got off the button"_ you'd be using the Guidance System. It makes behavior that is away from the desired one, more and more uncomfortable, until it gets the dog's attention, and then as he moves towards the perfect response, here it means running straight back towards the handler, make him more and more comfortable, until, when the behavior is perfect, the stim stops.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jafo220 said:


> Thanks for the input Lou. I'll have look into one of the other brands of E-collars. I get it now. * Hands down, which collar would you go with? *





Susan_GSD_mom said:


> Both David Winners and Lou Castle...
> 
> * Which collar would you each recommend? *


I've been using the Dogtras for quite a few years now. Back when Einstein was getting started they sent me a unit to try out. Due to the "hockey puck" design of the TX, I could not get used to the feel of it in my hand. They're due to come out with a new TX design, that is similar to the shape of the Dogtras, and that should be out in a few months. 

I have a friend who says that the Einstein fits his hand perfectly and he prefers it. I think that it's going to be a personal thing. The Einstein has lots of features that pet owners will tend to find quite useful. The ability to lock the stim level, lights for locating the dog when it's dark and even lighting his way, the boost feature, and a lost TX feature among them. 

In the Dogtra line I prefer the fast recharging of the 2300 and in the Einstein line I prefer the power and range of the 800Ts series. 





David Winners said:


> If you are going to use the e-collar for DA issues, I would recommend reading the crittering page on Lou's site until you hate it. It's a good protocol and one that works.


Thanks for the support David. I appreciate it. 



jafo220 said:


> What is the difference between the transmitters? Button locations? Size? Just overall design?


Best way to answer this is to go to the respective websites and take a look at them. Basically the Dogtras are rectangular with the button on the sides and the front. Basically the Einsteins are shaped like a hockey puck with button on the back and the edge.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

jmdjack said:


> I have both the Dogtra (I think the 1900) and a 2 receiver Einstein/whatever system (K9 400ts). After several years, the battery in the Dogtra is shot and will not hold a charge.


If an Ecollar is charged properly, different kinds of batteries have different needs, they should last, 3−5 years. At that point they can be replaced by the manufacturer or even by the owner, if they're fairly handy.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LouCastle said:


> David this is the first side of the Guidance system. The second side of it would be incrementally reinforcing the recall, instead of just _"g[etting"_ off the button when your dog changed direction.
> 
> In the situation you described, few dogs will 'slam on the brakes,' come to a complete stop and return along the same path as when moving towards the other dog at the recall command. Most will 'veer off,' taking a circular path enroute to the recall, where the dog is coming straight back, towards the handler.
> 
> As soon as the dog slightly changes direction in this 'veering off' you could very slightly reduce the stim level, as the turn continued, you could keep slowly reducing the stim level. Keep reducing it further until, when the dog was headed straight back towards you, you _"got off the button"_ you'd be using the Guidance System. It makes behavior that is away from the desired one, more and more uncomfortable, until it gets the dog's attention, and then as he moves towards the perfect response, here it means running straight back towards the handler, make him more and more comfortable, until, when the behavior is perfect, the stim stops.


Thanks for the explanation Lou. I just started doing the grab the knob and turn it up thing (First step of the Guidance system as it turns out) because it made sense. I find that after working a dog for a while with the e-collar you can really see how they are feeling the stim and adjust it accordingly. Once the mechanics are down, adjusting on the fly is pretty useful IMO. I have never added the second half (decreasing the stim incrementally) because it never came to me, but it makes perfect sense.

You're a wealth of information Lou. Thanks for sharing.


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## LouCastle (Sep 25, 2006)

David Winners said:


> Thanks for the explanation Lou. I just started doing the grab the knob and turn it up thing (First step of the Guidance system as it turns out) because it made sense. I find that after working a dog for a while with the e-collar you can really see how they are feeling the stim and adjust it accordingly. Once the mechanics are down, adjusting on the fly is pretty useful IMO. * I have never added the second half (decreasing the stim incrementally) because it never came to me, but it makes perfect sense. *
> 
> You're a wealth of information Lou. Thanks for sharing.


That _"second half"_ really adds to the communication and therefore, the reliability. It rewards the dog at each increment of his behavior at the instant that it's happening. 

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

LouCastle said:


> I've been using the Dogtras for quite a few years now. Back when Einstein was getting started they sent me a unit to try out. Due to the "hockey puck" design of the TX, I could not get used to the feel of it in my hand. They're due to come out with a new TX design, that is similar to the shape of the Dogtras, and that should be out in a few months.
> 
> I have a friend who says that the Einstein fits his hand perfectly and he prefers it. I think that it's going to be a personal thing. The Einstein has lots of features that pet owners will tend to find quite useful. The ability to lock the stim level, lights for locating the dog when it's dark and even lighting his way, the boost feature, and a lost TX feature among them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input Lou. I also read the "crittering" section of your site as well as a lot of other sections and found it all very informative. I never looked at training that way. It all makes sense. So much so, I just don't have a follow up question.......yet. Lucky you!:wild:


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## Hessa (Dec 24, 2013)

I use SMS out here in Vegas for Hessa. I'm not part of Fred's franchise, but I found the tool to be great. Hessa has become more responsive and obedient, and hasn't lost any of her spunk or personality. I don't use it around the house anymore she's awesome when there's no distractions, but when we leave the house it's a must for training and safety reasons. I don't mind the tool she hasn't showed me any signs of hating it. She knows what it is and anytime I grab it she gets excited because she knows it means we're going out. She doesn't run from it at all she waits for me to put it on and then runs after her leash. It's really on the owner as much as it is the trainer. I'm sure the Ecollar can be very harmful if not used correctly, patience is key can't just hammer on the button until the dog does what you want even if at the lowest level! You can swing a hammer a million times, but if you keep missing the head on the nail you'll just have to end up repairing the whole **** wall.


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