# whelping question 58 days post conception



## selzer

Ok, I have a girl that is really hard to read. 

Two nights ago, I took her temperature and it was 100.8. The next morning 100.6. Last night 99.5, this morning 99.5. Today is 58 days after her first mating. 

She is not nesting much, she ate her food, she is drinking water, I have not seen any contractions. 

I guess she may still be coming down, the thermometer might be low, her overall temperature might run a little low. 

How likely is it that she will have puppies today or tomorrow? 

Isn't it better for the little buggers to incubate for 63 days? She is huge. Is it more likely for a large litter to come early? She has milk. 

I am just very nervous.


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## GSDBESTK9

Gala will eat her whole meal and drink just before whelping.  :rofl: Our Evi and Tara will refuse it. So each female is different.


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## Chris Wild

Temp isn't down far enough yet for it to be likely that whelping will start within the next day or two. Once it gets down into the 98s, then it's time to start getting ready. I've had several bitches hang out in the 99s for a couple days before their temp finally took the plunge and pups started coming. So you've probably still got a couple days.

Whelping at 58 days is fine. No real reason for concern there. Also when counting days, to count correctly you count from ovulation (based on progesterone). Not mating. Often ovulation is a couple days before so if you're counting 58 days from mating it may be 60 or 61 from ovulation.


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## selzer

Chris Wild said:


> Temp isn't down far enough yet for it to be likely that whelping will start within the next day or two. Once it gets down into the 98s, then it's time to start getting ready. I've had several bitches hang out in the 99s for a couple days before their temp finally took the plunge and pups started coming. So you've probably still got a couple days.
> 
> Whelping at 58 days is fine. No real reason for concern there. Also when counting days, to count correctly you count from ovulation (based on progesterone). Not mating. Often ovulation is a couple days before so if you're counting 58 days from mating it may be 60 or 61 from ovulation.


Thank you all, I know that you have to count from ovulation, but the breeding was natural, and we did not do any progesterone testing, I mean, if their eyes would just turn yellow or something during ovulation, we could be more sure about this. This is not her first litter, but it is the first litter that I bred, so I have no way of gaging it that way either. 

My concern is that I bred her three times, with 1 to 2 days in-between. If we whelp at day 58, then breeding 1 has incubated 58 days, but two is only 56 and three is down to 53 which is not so good. 

Thanks in particular about the 98 degree mark. I have done this before, and check them twice a day. With my previous girls (all closely related) it went from 101.8 and steadily climbed down to just below 99, and normally they would whelp within 24 hours if it stayed in that range for 12 hours. (It is possible that the dip happened during that time and it was on its way back up.)

But I bought a new thermometer -- someone took my good expensive one with the digital read out and the cord from probe to hand held box out into the snow, dissected it and severed the cord. She will remain nameless. This one is a cheap little digital one that beeps when it is steady. Quick, easy to clean. But not sure how accurate. I thought I was starting early enough to get a good baseline. 

I am not so concerned now, I think this is the hardest part. 

Thanks again.


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## wyominggrandma

*My bitches would drop as low as 97, then go back up.*
* Sounds like it could be anyday. Have a safe healthy whelping.*


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## Andaka

Kahla would eat food between whelping puppies. She never missed a meal!!!


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## vomlittlehaus

My bitch had me guessing alot. She was 100 and under for her first litter when I started taking her temp. That was a week out from her due date. Then she was down in the 98's for a few days, thought that was low the first time it happened. Nope, up and down for a couple days between 98 and 99. Then her temp took a nose dive into the 97's but that was over a 12 hr period, so I had a low reading and then an even lower reading, then back up again. She had pups in those 24 hrs of the drop.

Oh, and just to add that I bought one of those digital ones from the drug store and it read the temp fine.


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## WVGSD

I came home last August to find that my bitch had whelped four puppies (her first litter) while I was at work!!! Her temp was in the 99 degree range, but she was eating, playing, not nesting, not restless and only on day 58 from the first of five natural breedings (consecutive days). She went on to whelp nine total puppies and all did well. I had planned/scheduled her whelping for the weekend and took the next week off from work, but she beat me to it and had the litter on a Wednesday.


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## paulag1955

Excuse me for butting in, but what's the physiological reason for the temperature drop?


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## BlackthornGSD

paulag1955 said:


> Excuse me for butting in, but what's the physiological reason for the temperature drop?


Hormone change. Normal progesterone levels for a female not in heat nor pregnant is somewhere under 1. During estrus, it starts to rise, around 5, the signal to ovulate goes out. During pregnancy, progesterone levels are around 40-60. When progesterone drops below 40, iirc, the bitch will go into labor (or miscarry if it's too early). (These are the levels I've read--but they are somewhat lab dependent, so use them more as an index than as the actual numbers you'd be judging by.)

I agree with what others have said, too--if you're going by temperature drop, it needs to drop below 99 to be of relevance. It will hover below 100 for a few days before labor starts. And it may drop below 99 when labor starts then rise again--so you can miss that drop pretty easily.

As far as age of the litter, by my understanding, all eggs attach to the uterine wall at the same time, so whether an egg is fertilized on the first mating or the last mating all growth begins at the same time and all fetuses are the same age. 

So, if the pups are born 55 days from the last mating, that just means that that last mating was recreational, not reproductive.


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## selzer

WVGSD said:


> I came home last August to find that my bitch had whelped four puppies (her first litter) while I was at work!!! Her temp was in the 99 degree range, but she was eating, playing, not nesting, not restless and only on day 58 from the first of five natural breedings (consecutive days). She went on to whelp nine total puppies and all did well. I had planned/scheduled her whelping for the weekend and took the next week off from work, but she beat me to it and had the litter on a Wednesday.


They are working dogs. There job is to drive us insane. (They are good at it.) The big question is though, "did you still take the next week off from work???"

I think the temperature drop has to do with the hormones/progesterone spikes. It comes back up prior to whelping they tell me. I think women sometimes take their temperature when they are trying to get pregnant. I am not exactly sure about the exact science of it, but the progesterone spikes a couple of times in the cycle, near ovulation I think and prior to whelping, though the graph looks rather choppy. I think I will go look it up.


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## selzer

Hormone Levels: Determining Breeding Times and Whelping Dates in Dogs

Estrogen is spiking, the progesterone goes up and then comes down. Looks like the temperature drop, accompanies the progesterone drop.


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## paulag1955

selzer said:


> I think women sometimes take their temperature when they are trying to get pregnant.



Wait...THAT is where babies come from?!? 

Sorry...couldn't resist. Thanks to all for the info.


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## selzer

I am on for only a limited time. Odessa is having a c-section. 

I got home last night, she met me at her baby gate all things wagging. I gave her some boneless, skinless chicken breast, and mowed the back lawn, and came in and had some dinner and fell asleep in the chair. I got up near midnight and she was panting heavily, but no contractions. I took her temperature it was 100.0. 1/2 degree different. I stared at her for a while.

At 2AM she started to have contractions. At 4AM still no puppy. At that point, I could have taken her 2.5 miles away, or wait for my vet two open up at 7:30. I chose the latter. 

I took care of everyone else and spent more time watching her, encouraging her to push. No luck. No water. The same puppy sit as the last time, the same symptoms. She started straining for a few minutes and then lies down, giving up. 

At seven thirty they told me the vet comes in at eight thirty. At eight thirty they gave me an appointment for 10:30. At 10:30, she examined her, did a vaginal exam to ensure nothing was blocking, did an x-ray. 6 pups at least, two right near the canal, one forward, one backward -- she said the first one is backward. I know 40% come out backwards, no big deal, but the puppy just isn't coming. So we gave her a shot of calcium and a shot of oxytocin and waited 20 minutes, nothing another ten minutes and another shot of oxytocin. 

We waited again. She made me up a third shot, and I took her home, she started having contractions right after I gave her the shot, as soon as I got home, but no water, no puppy, lots of panting, straining but nothing. I waited until 2:30 and called again. They said to bring her back. C-section. 

They close at five. I am waiting for their call.


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## wolfstraum

Good Luck - at least it is not snowing and not the middle of the night this time! 

Lee


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## paulag1955

Praying for a positive outcome.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Any word yet? Praying for Odessa and pups!


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## Lilie

Do we have an update?


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## selzer

Dead. All the puppies. Odessa is ok. She is currently resting in my car. I can give her some water in about an hour. 

Her plumbing has some pouches and no muscle on the outside. Very strange. This was not mentioned during the blizzard. I asked if it might be uterine cancer and she said no, it did not look like that. 

The pups had some type of bruising on them. The litter was early. But she was definitely in labor. The vet thinks maybe some infection, and the litter was being aborted. Placentas did not look healthy and were separating. But Odessa looks very healthy according to the vet, so she is going to do some research on the pouches. 

I am going to go home and give Odie lots of pets, and hope she forgets soon this whole ordeal. I am so discouraged.


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## JakodaCD OA

I am so sorry


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## paulag1955

I'm so sorry. What a sad day.


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## Good_Karma

Oh Sue. I'm so sorry. Maybe Odessa was just not built to be a mom. I hope your vet can find some answers for you.


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## Dainerra

oh I'm so sorry to hear that!!


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## wolfstraum

I am so sorry....I know how tough this is....

Did Odessa have any pups in Germany??? 

Lee


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## shadow mum

I am so sorry to read this...((hugs)) to you and Odessa.


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## KSdogowner

I am so sorry to hear.


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## e.rigby

I am so so sorry  I wish you could have had a better outcome


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## Chris Wild

So sorry, Sue.


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## Catu

Sorry to read that :teary:


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## Andaka

I'm sorry, Sue.


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## Smithie86

I am sorry.....


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## DharmasMom

Oh gosh. That was NOT what I was hoping to read when I clicked on this thread. I am so sorry.


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## onyx'girl

DharmasMom said:


> Oh gosh. That was NOT what I was hoping to read when I clicked on this thread. I am so sorry.


agreed


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## Stevenzachsmom

Oh Sue! I am so very sorry. I am just going to cry now. 

Huge Hugs to you and Odessa.


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## ChristenHolden

So So Sorry :-( :hugs:


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## spiritsmom

Is there a really good repro vet near you that you could take her to? I thought she had 1 litter before you got her and all went fine during that one. The two she's had over here have just been heartbreaking, just have to wonder if something physically wrong with her is causing this.


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## Gilly1331

Oh what a sad day. Prayers for Odessa that she recovers and the vet finds out what happened. Prayers and hugs.


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## bianca

I am so very sorry Sue  :hugs:


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## Betty

Oh Sue, I'm so very sorry.


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## Lilie

Big hugs to you, Sue.


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## trudy

Sue, I am very sorry, I know you will need to step back and reevaluate things, but maybe you can contact the people you got her from and see if they have a replacement?? Prhaps they have had soemthing similar and know some thing and maybe they will do right by you. I hope so


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## BowWowMeow

I'm very sorry about the puppies. How is Odessa doing today? It must be very hard for her without any puppies. :teary:


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## selzer

Yes she had one litter in Germany. Her owner held back two pups to be trialed and shown. 

Trudy, I went with a 3-3 line breeding on Pakros and a 4-3 I think on Karma. I think that might have been too close and too heavy on those dogs. (deformed tail on one pup) So no way will I repeat that mating. Odessa may not have any more puppies for me, and I love her so much. I do not expect her previous owner to do anything. It is possible that the food that I feed, or some disease, or lack of something caused this to happen. Anyway, she is a live critter, and I assume the risk when I bought her. There is no person or dog that will never have a physical issue at some point. I thought that maybe they had trouble with the first litter, but I do not know it. She was very young when she had that first litter, and did not conceive after they sold her so kept her another six months. 

There is a reproductive specialist, near here -- where we did the last c-section -- no mention of pouches 8 months ago. But, for some reason she could not pass that litter on her own. So the problem may have been there, may not have. My vet suggested the specialist by name if we decide to breed her in the future, she should be checked for the exact ovulation date, and we might have to schedule a c-section for her. She should come into heat between December and February. I am going to wait, and work with her and get her in awesome shape and maybe a year from now, we will take it into advisement with the repo specialist. She has no problem getting pregnant, but this is so heart breaking. I just want to be sure that if I do try again with her, we are covering all the bases, I think after she heals, I will take her out and do some other stuff with her. I planned on it anyway. 

Right now I am giving her pain killers and will be giving cephalexin, the vet is afraid of mastitis with so much milk production. I am wondering if maybe I should look for an orphan pup or litter. That might make both of us feel a lot better about the whole thing.


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## Lilie

Sue, do you feel up to explaining what you mean by 'pouches'? As a non-breeder, I have no idea what that means, and would like to better understand why this happened to your poor baby.


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## selzer

No idea. 

The vet said the womb had a section of pouches on the outside, and little to no muscle. Other parts were not like this. She said it was kind of like a colon with diverticulitis. She is going to research it. She does not know what is going on.


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## LaRen616

selzer said:


> Trudy, I went with a 3-3 line breeding on Pakros and a 4-3 I think on Karma. I think that might have been too close and too heavy on those dogs. (deformed tail on one pup) So no way will I repeat that mating. Odessa may not have any more puppies for me, and I love her so much. I do not expect her previous owner to do anything. It is possible that the food that I feed, or some disease, or lack of something caused this to happen. Anyway, she is a live critter, and I assume the risk when I bought her. There is no person or dog that will never have a physical issue at some point. I thought that maybe they had trouble with the first litter, but I do not know it. *She was very young when she had that first litter, and did not conceive after they sold her so kept her another six months.*


What do you mean by she was very young when she had her 1st litter, how old was she?


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## Lilie

selzer said:


> No idea.
> 
> The vet said the womb had a section of pouches on the outside, and little to no muscle. Other parts were not like this. She said it was kind of like a colon with diverticulitis. She is going to research it. She does not know what is going on.


 
How very odd.


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## selzer

LaRen616 said:


> What do you mean by she was very young when she had her 1st litter, how old was she?


Old enough to breed in Germany and get pink papers. Here is the ped of her son. I will figure it out by that:

V Gio vom Mühlenteich - German Shepherd Dog

He was born 9/21/2009, she was born 10/19/2007, so she had him just under two years old.


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## Chris1980

Chris Wild said:


> Temp isn't down far enough yet for it to be likely that whelping will start within the next day or two. Once it gets down into the 98s, then it's time to start getting ready. I've had several bitches hang out in the 99s for a couple days before their temp finally took the plunge and pups started coming. So you've probably still got a couple days.
> 
> Whelping at 58 days is fine. No real reason for concern there. Also when counting days, to count correctly you count from ovulation (based on progesterone). Not mating. Often ovulation is a couple days before so if you're counting 58 days from mating it may be 60 or 61 from ovulation.


I would agree with all of the above good solid information and exactly how I also see it


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