# Vet advising against the Raw Diet



## echo's dad (Jun 15, 2016)

Hi I recently put my 6 month GSD on the Raw diet. In fact, I put all my dogs on it.
What I have noticed so far in my puppy is: boundless energy, increased focus when working, less doggy odor, shiny coat, lean but muscular body with ribs just visible when he runs, small compact stools that look like an actual predators and lastly he really, really enjoys the raw diet.
I have spoken to my vet but he very much against raw feeding. He says that it is not a balanced diet and that many raw fed dogs have an inferior bone structure. He further explained that GSD have very sensitive stomachs (which is true) and he recommended feeding a high quality breed specific dog food brand because it is more balanced. I not want to name the specific brand but I checked the reviews for it on-line and it only received a 2.5 out of 5 rating. According to the review, the food contains more than 50% grain based carbohydrates and less than 30% protein. The protein is basically chicken by-product meal, which is in essence slaughterhouse waste. How can this be more balanced than the raw diet? Furthermore, this product is 3 times the price of the raw diet. It feels like I am getting ripped-off or am I missing something?


----------



## Freyja (May 24, 2016)

I can't help but think you're talking about Royal Canin, which is definitely gimmicky in regards to their breed-specific blends. If you're having ANY doubts, I would recommend sticking with the raw diet, ensuring you're covering all the bases in regards to nutrition, and having a checkup for your dogs in around three months time. There are additional supplement blends to top of their meals with, but honestly, I've read nothing but great things about BARF so I'm unsure if your vet is speaking from personal experience (where there has been a pup with already bad bones being fed raw?) or if it is legitimate research. Anyway, if you're seeing positive physical results, I'd say stick with it for awhile - vets, like many professions, have their biases.


----------



## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

when i picked up my puppy from my breeder i took him straight to the vet

there as we were discussing, i told the vet tech that i will be feeding my dog raw food and the vet tech said he advised against it

and handed me a promotional pamphlet for Royal Canin


----------



## echo's dad (Jun 15, 2016)

Yup it is indeed Royal Canin. My dog eats it but not with much enthusiasm. With the raw diet - he can't seem to get enough of it. The diet I use is chicken based because he tolerates chicken very well. I also include a little bit of veggies, raw eggs, a little bit of brown rice and ox liver every once in a while. I am a bit wary of using pork. The only supplement I feed is Pro-biotic powder but I am thinking of including fish oil as well. I have fed him raw green tripe once but it upset his stomach. He might just need getting used to it because a lot or raw feeders see raw green tripe as the most nutritious food there is because of all the minerals it contains. Raw feeding is a journey and it takes some time to get a diet that works for your individual dog.


----------



## Suki's Mom (Nov 24, 2008)

Here is an interesting article about vets' knowledge about nutrition: What Does Your Dog's Vet Know About Nutrition? - Dogs Naturally Magazine


----------



## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

While you are learning, there are base-mixes to help you balance raw or cooked meat easily. All of these are products to which you add the meat of your choice (i.e., designed to offer a balanced meal, when combined with meat).

One is called Preference, from the Honest Kitchen: Preference Meat-Free Dog Food 

Another is from Volhard Nutrition. Volhard Dog Nutrition

Finally, there's a company called Balance It that is run by a vet who is board-certified in nutrition, taught and researched at a university veterinary program, and was in charge of R&D for Natura (which used to be one of the very good, high-end pet food companies, during the years he was there, before it was acquired by a conglomerate). Balance It is associated with the University of California-Davis vet school. If you want an option that your vet won't be able to fuss over, the knowledge behind Balance It is hard to quibble with:
https://secure.balanceit.com/info/aboutus.php?


----------



## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

echo's dad said:


> I have spoken to my vet but he very much against raw feeding. He says that it is not a balanced diet and that many raw fed dogs have an inferior bone structure. He further explained that GSD have very sensitive stomachs (which is true) and he recommended feeding a high quality breed specific dog food brand because it is more balanced.


Well what he is saying is certainly true. Not just raw diets but any home made diet. Many vets are seeing issues with bones from incomplete diets. So do your research, get the nutrients right (it's not really brain surgery). Look up Dr. Becker. She has a good book that is user friendly! And she has ingredients to make a vitamin mix to add.

As far as GSD's having sensitive stomachs....so do a lot of other breeds and it's based on the individual dogs. I don't really think that statement is true. I think i'ts more that they are high on the list of diseases such as EPI and SIBO.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

echo's dad said:


> Yup it is indeed Royal Canin. My dog eats it but not with much enthusiasm. With the raw diet - he can't seem to get enough of it. The diet I use is chicken based because he tolerates chicken very well. I also include a little bit of veggies, raw eggs, a little bit of brown rice and ox liver every once in a while. I am a bit wary of using pork. The only supplement I feed is Pro-biotic powder but I am thinking of including fish oil as well. I have fed him raw green tripe once but it upset his stomach. He might just need getting used to it because a lot or raw feeders see raw green tripe as the most nutritious food there is because of all the minerals it contains. Raw feeding is a journey and it takes some time to get a diet that works for your individual dog.


Is it the GSD food or the sensitive stomach food?

My dog was on the latter for awhile, and she really did do well on it. Until she decided she was just done eating it and refused to touch it. One morning at breakfast - she was just done. 

We tried other commercial diets and she either outright refused them or tried them for a few weeks and then just quit. The Honest Kitchen stuff went well for awhile but she woke up one day and flatly refused that too (I had sample packets of different flavors beyond what she'd been eating, and she refused those too). We finally switched her to raw.

I would rather do commercial raw, but it is about twice as expensive unless I can buy something like 180 lb at a time (then the pricing is great!). So we do homemade raw with a base of meat and organ meat with some bone, and I add nutritional supplements, including a probiotic. The last vet she saw was really disapproving of the raw diet and only grudgingly admitted she understood why we did it and that our dog looked great. Do your research, do what works for the dog, listen to your vet, and take from their advice what is good.


----------



## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Jax08 said:


> Well what he is saying is certainly true. Not just raw diets but any home made diet. Many vets are seeing issues with bones from incomplete diets. So do your research, get the nutrients right (it's not really brain surgery). Look up Dr. Becker. She has a good book that is user friendly! And she has ingredients to make a vitamin mix to add.


I think that's a great point. As premade raw diets become mainstream, I imagine folks think they can do it themselves for cheaper.... Which is true but it requires a bit more diligence than throwing some chicken wings in a bowl.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Raw feeding is not difficult, but it does require some effort. Putting in effort doesn't mean having to measure every little thing or making sure every meal is balanced, but it is more involved than just throwing some hamburger and leg quarters in a bowl (yes, I know someone who did this and caused all sorts of problems). If people want to be lazy then they are better off paying for the commercial raw or feeding good quality kibble. 

I have fed raw for over 17 years and am currently weaning my 9th raw litter. Since I broke my grinder I do use commercial raw mixes to wean my puppies.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

One of my puppy buyers has two of my pups, One is about 3, and the other just turned 1 a few months ago. They are totally RAW fed, and the dogs are healthy. The man knows what he is doing and is giving them a balanced, raw diet appropriate for dogs. 

I don't feed raw in general. I will give my dogs a chicken leg quarter as a treat, and in place of a meal now and then. I think some people who are feeding raw think that they just need to go and buy meat and give it to the dog. And I think vets would see problems with that. 

But Royal Canine isn't really great food, and a lot more expensive than other mid-range foods. I feed Diamond Naturals. Protein is from Chicken meal and chicken. It is a mid-range food, and my dogs do fine on it. But they do not spend the money in expensive advertising that Purina and Royal Canine and Iams do, so the price/pound is less, and ingredients better. And yet a vet once told me, to get good quality, you would have to go to Purina, and that was just a few years ago. Ok, all of Purina is not Beneful, but even pro-plan doesn't have as good of an ingredient list as the stuff I am buying and it is much more expensive. And, I think only the pro-plan line is actually being manufactured at purina plants now. Ah well.


----------



## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> it is not a balanced diet


Study the reception room of your vet clinic. The majority of vets are the participants of dog food programs. "And, if not raw, what should I feed my dog with?" - your vet just waits for this question. *My vet thinks dog should eat everything*. My dogs always were raised on and ate raw meet and raw bones as regular meals, but I trained them from the very start to eat dry food, not only occasional banana or yogurt.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

blah blah blah --- put the dog back on to the raw that he enjoyed .
what does your vet know about nutrition is taught by the mega corporations which are making ginormous profits and are scrambling to recapture the market share lost to the thousands jumping ship and choosing to be in control with raw feeding.
apparently it has nothing to do with a philosophy about what is correct . If the market cries for no grain - voila there will be no grain formulations for them to keep customers , even though they had argued for years that corn is a good source of protein.
my guys have been raw fed for over 35 years . Meaty bones, liver, heart, frozen herring , tripe, whole eggs -- all protein sources , nothing needs to be excluded . To complete the macro nutrients the dogs get Feed-Sentials and the oil blend .
I never need to see the Vet ! -- If I did need a visit I would not hesitate to do so . (I like my vet)
I do comply with rabies vaccination .
I do x ray , sometimes a pup might have 3 x rays. (decision making and requirement pre-purchase )
I mentioned x rays because after generations of raw feeding there is no "inferior bone structure" . There are always comments about the impressive bone density . The vet calls them dinosaur bones .

Do wild canids have inferior bone structure . How in the world would that serve them ? Such contrary thinking.

Kibble feeding tends to promote a lot of inflammation.

The 10 Worst Consumer Rated Dry Dog Food Brands For 2016 | The Dog Digest | Page 2


----------



## CarrieJo (Oct 1, 2016)

I know nothing about a raw dog food diet. What I do know is that the diet we use kibble any brand I am sure raw food diets made with quality foods and balanced correctly will out do anything to kibble. Of course it would seriously cut down on vet bills I am sure. 

I used to breed birds and I would tell people that I felt the way about pellets as I do about dog food kibble. People use it because it is convenient not that it is better and is actually worse. I wish I had the time, energy, and money to do the raw deal. 

I love old time veterinarians they seem to have more common sense and less of making themselves rich while bleeding you dry on overcharging for so much stuff. Friend of mine had her dog accidentally ran over by her MIL (the dog is death and short, not light though, so hey I could see it happening.) They where out in the sticks when it happened took the dog to the local vet up there and it was only like 400 for surgery pins in legs and everything including all the checkups. Here I would guess it would have been easily over a grand or more. People really do love their animals but how many can afford a sudden 1500 dollar vet bill. 

The big problem with feeding our dogs our table scraps is our food is full of stuff that we shouldn't be eating either. We are killing ourselves with chemicals additives, stuff is in our food I would not feed my dogs. WHY would I want to feed it to my kids? So if I happen to make bread with fresh ground wheat yea I wouldn't mind giving my dog some. I know I grounded the wheat and made sure everything in it was good. 

I hope to one day have the time, money, and energy to do the dog food thing right. Would love to but unfortunately with a house full of kids and health problems for me and my hubby the kibble will have to do. 

As for a vet going against it. Big deal Veterinarians are becoming like western medicine doctors and treating symptoms instead of curing what is wrong in the first place. But hey what do I know my husband has only fought cancer for 16 years and there is NO WAY I would use the methods he did (cancer doctor's) chemo, radiation, surgery. I would keep my mouth shut not tell a living soul I have cancer make the Doctor swear to not to tell a living soul and go juicing my head off, give up sugar and all chemical additives and actually give my body a chance to live instead of a lifetime of living with side effects only to have it keep coming back. 

But yes research yourself crazy to make sure you do it right so you don't hurt your dog.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

in most cases, it has less to do with wanting to bleed people dry with additional vet bills because a dog is on a processed diet and more to do with A) lack of research on the vet's part and B) seeing the cases come in with an improperly prepared/balanced raw diet. Even Ol' Roy is better than an incorrect raw diet! 

People do tend to think that you dump some meat into a bowl and it's good. I've met/chatted with hundreds of people (online and in person) who really think that if you take some hamburger and chicken and TADA your dog is raw-fed. They do have at least a vague idea that they need to feed some amount of bone and liver but they either don't research how much meat vs bone vs organ meat or think that chicken + hamburger = balanced raw. 

If you aren't doing supplements, then you need at least 4 different proteins. More is even better. If you are doing supplements, that will be additional expense and must be calculated as well.

CarrieJo, depending on your area raw can be much much cheaper than kibble. When I lived in WV, I spent less than $30 a month to feed to large dogs. Many areas now also have co-ops as well which allows everyone to take advantage of lower prices for bulk. I sourced 99% of my meat for free from local slaughterhouses and processers of wild game. The dogs ate goat, sheep, fish, elk, buffalo, venison, even bear. Also the staples of chicken, beef, turkey and pork. Time spent is usually an hour or so once or 2X a month. Depending on how often you source more bulk amounts of meat. 

You don't need to research yourself crazy though. Too much research tends to backfire since there are so many different ways to do raw. BARF, species appropriate raw, homecooked, and others.


----------



## echo's dad (Jun 15, 2016)

I have listened to some Dr Becker's talks on youtube. She really knows what she is talking about. The scary thing is while a balanced raw diet is the best thing for your dog, an imbalanced one is the worst.
I am new to this and still trying to come up with the "perfect" diet. I try to give about 70% RMB (mostly chicken) as well as some organs, raw eggs and ox liver every now and then. The rest of the diet consists of either fruit or vegetable matter. I also give them probiotics daily.


----------



## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

echo's dad said:


> I have listened to some Dr Becker's talks on youtube. She really knows what she is talking about. The scary thing is while a balanced raw diet is the best thing for your dog, an imbalanced one is the worst.
> I am new to this and still trying to come up with the "perfect" diet. I try to give about 70% RMB (mostly chicken) as well as some organs, raw eggs and ox liver every now and then. The rest of the diet consists of either fruit or vegetable matter. I also give them probiotics daily.


this website is what i based my dog's diet at first

BARF Diet Specifics - Bones, Meat, Offal, Vegetables, Fruits & Other Nutrition Food Products for Pet

but when i started questioning the freshness of the meat, safety of handling such meat, not having a good supplier, money and the time consumption, i soon gave up raw feeding

but i want to get started on it as soon as i can find a reliable supplier

nobody offers fresh tripe within 50mile radius from where i live


----------



## Coco's mum (Sep 29, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> People do tend to think that you dump some meat into a bowl and it's good. I've met/chatted with hundreds of people (online and in person) who really think that if you take some hamburger and chicken and TADA your dog is raw-fed. They do have at least a vague idea that they need to feed some amount of bone and liver but they either don't research how much meat vs bone vs organ meat or think that chicken + hamburger = balanced raw.
> 
> If you aren't doing supplements, then you need at least 4 different proteins. More is even better. If you are doing supplements, that will be additional expense and must be calculated as well.
> 
> You don't need to research yourself crazy though. Too much research tends to backfire since there are so many different ways to do raw. BARF, species appropriate raw, homecooked, and others.


As a beginner myself - and one who is struggling - what sort of supplements are needed?

I have read Dr Becker's book and Works Wonders as well - but I am just as worried as I was before I read them. I am using a percentage calculator and the Perfectlyrawsome bone percentage chart to make sure I'm feeding her enough RMB and MM. 

I know I am not giving my girl enough organ meat - liver and other organs - she has diarrhea EVERYtime I give her even a little bit of liver (I chopped the liver and froze it in teaspoon-sized bits). I talked to the people at My Pet Carnivore about it and they said not to worry (yet) and that balance over time is just as important as measuring every thing and spazzing out that I'm not doing it right all the time. 

So do supplements take the place of organ meat? 

I'm attempting the raw diet because Coco is scratching herself so much - I don't know if it's allergy to food or if its seasonal allergies or if it's yeast or - holy heck - she just likes to scratch. A lot. Momto2GSDs made a comment that helped in that I should take her off chicken (after 14 days) and try a couple other proteins (currently trying pork - and we have diarrhea still) and then going back to chicken to see if she starts itching again… but first she has to stop being so darn itchy! 

I'm about ready to go back to kibble because omg I'm so afraid of screwing things up!


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I've never supplemented raw so I actually don't know. I had enough of a variety of meats that it wasn't an issue. Welcome to the Raw Dog Ranch is the website I used to start my raw feeding diet.

As for organ meat, you likely started with too much. Many dogs, because liver is so rich, start off with a tiny piece. Like the amount you might find left attached to chicken backs. Most of the time, since chicken backs were a regular staple of the diet, they didn't get much more liver than that. 
Other organs would be kidney or brain.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

pork really isn't a good first choice for an elimination diet. it can cause upset tummies in some dogs. especially if they aren't used to having it in their diet. 

You can try a limited ingredient kibble instead of raw if you want to eliminate.


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

echo's dad said:


> Hi I recently put my 6 month GSD on the Raw diet. In fact, I put all my dogs on it.
> What I have noticed so far in my puppy is: boundless energy, increased focus when working, less doggy odor, shiny coat, lean but muscular body with ribs just visible when he runs, small compact stools that look like an actual predators and lastly he really, really enjoys the raw diet.
> I have spoken to my vet but he very much against raw feeding. He says that it is not a balanced diet and that many raw fed dogs have an inferior bone structure. He further explained that GSD have very sensitive stomachs (which is true) and he recommended feeding a high quality breed specific dog food brand because it is more balanced. I not want to name the specific brand but I checked the reviews for it on-line and it only received a 2.5 out of 5 rating. According to the review, the food contains more than 50% grain based carbohydrates and less than 30% protein. The protein is basically chicken by-product meal, which is in essence slaughterhouse waste. How can this be more balanced than the raw diet? Furthermore, this product is 3 times the price of the raw diet. It feels like I am getting ripped-off or am I missing something?


I fed that kibble to my pup until she was about 8 months old per the breeder and my vet, both old school. A couple breeders I've met trust and use that food. YUK! I won't ever feed it again. I'd be happy to name it for you.:wink2: The fillers in that food do produce decent stools in sensitive dogs. It is difficult to feed raw when a vet advises against it.
I tried 5 different kibbles and came to the conclusion kibble doesn't work for my pup's sensitive GI tract. She finally has had consistently great stools on The Honest Kitchen dehydrated and now I'm transitioning her to Darwin's prepared raw. I don't have the freezer space or wherewithal to feed a homemade raw diet.


----------



## Coco's mum (Sep 29, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> pork really isn't a good first choice for an elimination diet. it can cause upset tummies in some dogs. especially if they aren't used to having it in their diet.
> 
> You can try a limited ingredient kibble instead of raw if you want to eliminate.


I started her on chicken first on August 31st, but jumped too quickly (I think) into other proteins (turkey and beef) and then added liver - an ounce and had a terrible episode of 'cannon butt' which prompted a visit to the emergency vet - probably too much liver was the cause of that. 
After that experience - I put her on only chicken for 14 days, I switched to pork next mostly because I read that pork is a 'cool' meat and might be a good choice… plus I said (to myself) 'its the other white meat!'. 

Anywho - I am worried I'm messing things up. She appears to be as healthy as the proverbial horse and she's very active. 

I am looking into THK as a back up plan though.


----------

