# Schutzhund & Prong/pinch collars



## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

Hi all, I'm fairly new to the sport - we've had a total of 6 sessions to date at the club I attend, and I have been recommended to start using a prong collar on my 13 month old female gsd. I guess I was curious to know how important is it to use a prong collar in this sport - EVERYONE uses one at the club I train at and I'm wondering if its a stock standard method of correcting/ controlling a dog in this sport (aside from e-collars). Prior to starting Schutzhund I've been using a gentle leader in high traffic places, or a check chain on our walks/ runs. I rarely have to correct her when we are walking, just if there is another dog present it gives me added control as she will sometimes try to lunge to play with other dogs. Can I use other methods of correction (voice & check chain) or is the prong collar the best way to go? Thanks!


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If you do not need it, don't use it just becasue everyone else is. 

I think most dogs need a prong, particularly in protection. But there are always those that are exceptions.
I use one in protection, but rarely in obedience. I don't use an electric collar, but 90% of our club does.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

my dog wore a prong but we rarely used it and I have been training with just a flat collar-used an e-collar for a short period of time


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you used one, what would you use it for? If you're not sure how to answer that, then I wouldn't worry about using one just b/c others do. I have no problem with them and use them for a variety of things but I use it fairly proactively (meaning I don't "resort" to it b/c my dog is pulling or out of control or this or that...I start training a new behavior already knowing that I'm going to use the prong and how I'm going to use it).


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

Right, cool, good to know, my trainer was encouraging me to purchase one for my girl and whilst she was telling me that its kinder than the check chain and more natural for the dogs to perceive as a correction as you don't need to yank as hard as you do on a check chain because it mimicks another dogs bite.. I have still heard dogs scream at our club when they have been corrected with a hard tug on the prong, and also she (my trainer) mentioned that sometimes to switch a dog from barking during the hold and bark in prey drive (where the pitch of their bark can be a little high due to excitement) they give the dog a correction with the prong to switch on their defensive side a little to deepen the bark, which to me sounds like - you cause some pain to the dog so that its attitude of "this fun give me the sleeve", switches to "ouch that hurt you *&^% now your making me mad!" so that the dog sounds more serious.. we tried the prong on my dog to see how she went just wearing it while attached to a leash and she didn't have an issue, and was a dream to handle but I am iffy about using painful methods and I'm not convinced the prong collar doesn't operate on pain.. off course the check chain can be painful too.. just trying to figure out which one is kinder.. as the prong was certainly more effective.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If you are fairly new, then I would recommend you listen to your TD. They have been when you are trying to go, have experienced what you are trying to do, and if they are worth their salt can easily determine if the prong will be beneficial to you and your dog. If you truly knew what was best you wouldn't be asking us on the forum as you would have the experience to know. So, since the TD is there....trust your TD .


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

atruepastime said:


> Right, cool, good to know, my trainer was encouraging me to purchase one for my girl and whilst she was telling me that its kinder than the check chain and more natural for the dogs to perceive as a correction as you don't need to yank as hard as you do on a check chain because it mimicks another dogs bite.. I have still heard dogs scream at our club when they have been corrected with a hard tug on the prong, and also she (my trainer) mentioned that sometimes to switch a dog from barking during the hold and bark in prey drive (where the pitch of their bark can be a little high due to excitement) they give the dog a correction with the prong to switch on their defensive side a little to deepen the bark, which to me sounds like - you cause some pain to the dog so that its attitude of "this fun give me the sleeve", switches to "ouch that hurt you *&^% now your making me mad!" so that the dog sounds more serious.. we tried the prong on my dog to see how she went just wearing it while attached to a leash and she didn't have an issue, and was a dream to handle but I am iffy about using painful methods and I'm not convinced the prong collar doesn't operate on pain.. off course the check chain can be painful too.. just trying to figure out which one is kinder.. as the prong was certainly more effective.


What made the decision for me using a prong is trying it out on my arm. I am not saying that you will feel the same as the dog will feel, but it should give you an idea of the difference between the two collars. I had the idea that the prongs dig into the neck like needles, but that isn't what it felt like. It feels like pinching. (Hence the collar also being called a pinch) The other advantage is that the prong pinches before it chokes. Although it does cause discomfort, it is more nagging than PAIN. Have you ever seen an older dog correct a younger dog? They pinch their neck with their teeth. It is quick and decisive and the puppy "gets it". I think of it as their natural language.

I have seen a dog choke himself out (dropped to the ground because he choked himself against his collar to the point that he couldn't breathe) because he was straining against a flat collar. If he wouldn't have been on a pinch that wouldn't have happened.

Although I feel strongly that you are the one who ultimately who has to decide what is best for your dog, I agree with Cliff. If your TD recommends it, and you don't have strong objections to the prong, give it a try. What your TD described worked for my Bison. He is high prey drive and it really helped deepen up his barking.

If you do have strong objections to the use of a prong, talk to your TD and see what other options you have.


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## Gloria (Jul 5, 2011)

Prong collars cause less damage to the dog's trachea during corrections...if any damage at all. Dog Prong Collars: Humane Training Option or Medieval Torture Device?
In all honesty, I never wanted to get a prong collar because I thought it was barbaric and inhumane however our GSD is strong-willed and we'd tried other methods to get her to stop pulling for my 76-year-old Mother who takes her for walks; along with my Mom being able to control Nikita with confidence. After doing A LOT of research, I caved and got one....so glad I did. She walks so much better at a "heel" and I don't have to worry that my Mom can't control Nikita when she's out on a walk.
I think my problem with prong collars, originally, was due to the way they look. I put one on my arm and tightened it...all I felt was tightness...more comfortable than a choke chain. Would I recommend prong / pinch collars? Absolutely!


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

I don't think you should feel pressured because everyone else does. 

Everyone uses one at my club too and I was very much pressured to use one especially as I have a strong dog who has been hard to control in bitework. But I chose not to, just my own preference, I don't like the sport that much that I want to fight with him over it and risk damaging our relationship, especially since he has handler aggression issues in his line. I would rather that we go slower and he can learn positively how he needs to behave in order to get the bite and so far it is working. 

Just my own opinion though and everyone works differently.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

I started putting one on my dog right away when suggested by my TD. It was more of a "later if we need to use it, he won't be collar smart" sort of thing. And then later, I did need to use it in some situations. 

I have heard dogs scream with the pinch on but I know numerous dogs that do it out of being amped up and the pop is just bringing them higher. If that makes sense.


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## BlackJack (Jun 23, 2011)

From your orginal post your using a choke chain right? If you are, I would switch to a prong without looking back. But if you have a enough control on a flat collar, good for you.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

BlackJack said:


> From your orginal post your using a choke chain right? If you are, I would switch to a prong without looking back. But if you have a enough control on a flat collar, good for you.


This is pretty much what I was going to say. If I am going to give a collar correction, I either use a flat collar, a fursaver on the dead ring (or back clipped to make it shorter), or pinch collar. I do not like a slip collar for corrections--it's either ineffective or it applies all the pressure to one point on the neck or the dog pulls on it and chokes himself. 

Also, definitely listen to your TD.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Pinch collars, Fur savors, Choke collars, Electric Collars are all excellent pieces of training & refining equipment......the key words being "training & refining".
Each and every piece of equipment can benefit individual dogs, and be a great *tool* if used properly.
Every trainer (TD) should know the "correct" way to apply these tools in their training methods to benefit each dog.
Just as there is no *one* training method that works for all dogs.....there should never be any "one size fits all" ideals on the equipment used......JMO


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Your dog is 13 months old so you should know her pretty well by now. It's your choice on what to do but the trainer usually does know best. When we started agility we were on a chain martingale for a while, the corrections didn't affect my pup at all at about 8 months so the trainer told us to get a prong. The corrections are now faster, more affective, and we have a much better dog and much more fun at the training sessions. Once in a while he gives off a yelp, but that's when he's being extremely hard headed and just not listening.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

A lot of what you are saying matches what I've been told by my trainer (who has been great with teaching me, I just thought I might get a few more opinions before I took her advice), which makes me feel more at ease, I will have to order one in from The States though. I guess I was still suspicious about the prong because you can't really by one here in Aus, which made me wonder if its such a great tool why is it not more popular or at least readily available to us in the stores. That said, its medieval torture equipment appearance doesn't sell its cause well, and I've had it placed around my arm and it does not seem painful when tightened (I'm sure it doesn't feel exactly how it does on my arm to how it would around a dogs neck), but still the same mechanism would apply which I was ok with. I think also my other concern is the fact that I have no experience with it, and am fearful that I might accidentally correct or wrongly correct her because of my inexperience with the tool. There is no way I have total control over her with a flat collar (I weigh 48kg and she's close to 30kg now, doing the math there no real way I could stop her physically).. and I don't feel the check chain is that effective as unless its high on her neck when I pop it and usually that causes her to cough, (so it must give her trachea a good whack) I can't really stop her from lungeing. If I do get a prong I guess I will be watching closely for any signs of displeasure/ anxiety with wearing it.. if I can ease back from using it or limit its use just to Schutzhund then thats what I'll do. My aim is to eventually be able to walk her on a flat collar in public, rather than progressing to harsher tools to achieve obedience.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Ruthie said:


> I have seen a dog choke himself out (dropped to the ground because he choked himself against his collar to the point that he couldn't breathe) because he was straining against a flat collar. *If he wouldn't have been on a pinch that wouldn't have happened*.


I just re-read my post and caught this error. I meant to say "If he WOULD have been on a pinch that wouldn't have happened." 

My DH gave me his iPad and between the auto fill in feature and the fact that I don't have a spell checker, my posts lately look like I am a third grader. Sorry.


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## JLOCKHART29 (Aug 23, 2009)

I have had mine in a pinch since he was 8 months. Not for pulling but corrections. When he decides he wants to willfully disobay a command he understands such as the aus he will hold the tug clamped tight and stare at you saying make me. I find the pinch much more humane but mostly less distracting than choking or flanking. I also all ways use pinch in addition to a fur saver both hooked to a clip attached to an eight inch rope with a knot in the end. If your dog does what you want every time with out resulting to nagging or begging than you may not ever need a pinch. With most dogs there will come a time where you have to make a dog realize he has to do what you say when you say it no questions asked if you ever get serious about training. As long as the dog UNDERSTANDS what he is being corrected for and it is not abused then a pinch or ecollar will be needed eventually.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks all I really appreciate the responses, we went yesterday for another training session and have hit a small wall with me communicating to Lila to fuss - german for foot/ heel I know thats not how you'd spell in german  while asking her to watch me.. she'll watch me but her head could be higher and she stops prancing which she'll do when I use a food lure to keep her head in position and strides higher.. 
one of the other members of the club recommended that using a prong on his dog help fine tune that part of the exercise so I guess I have my answer there. Will have to order one and see if it will work similar magic for me. 
Lila is my baby first and Schutzhund is for her mental/ physical stimulation more than it is a hobby of mine.. hence why I was cautious about jumping on the prong collar bandwagon before getting some second opinions from others that do the sport. Thanks again, I think I'll try it out and see how it works for us.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

atruepastime said:


> d have hit a small wall with me communicating to Lila to fuss - german for foot/ heel I know thats not how you'd spell in german  while asking her to watch me.. she'll watch me but her head could be higher and she stops prancing which she'll do when I use a food lure to keep her head in position and strides higher..


The prong may help with this, but if she does it under X circumstances, but not otherwise, it may be that you are moving forward too fast for her. You might find that moving to a prong collar destroys what you are looking for instead of helping. Maybe think about ways you can more gradually move away from the food lure with head high and high strides--introduce a few seconds without the lure at a time--extending the time you get without the lure and with the desired behavior.

Here's how one trainer has done something like this:











Notice that she is taking MONTHS to ingrain the overall look/style that she wants in the dog and to remove the physical cues for the dog.


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

Thank you Blackthorn GSD, I watched the links over and over to try and memorise the pace and handling of that dog so I could try and mimick it.. We tested it out this morning with her fluffy chicken toy (her favourite toy) and we had some success, I got head up and prancing for 2 steps before she'd either look away or try and jump up for the toy, so I just had to break and reward those two steps of success.. will test it again in a couple hours - and see if we get any further.

I do feel like we're really speeding thru learning what she needs to do (up till this "fussing" issue she's cottoned onto everything just wonderfully), we've had 7 sessions at the club now and we're already doing apart from the basic focus work, platz, sitz, we are also doing the fuss with turns, some blind work and bite work (with a giant tug toy made of the sleeve material, but no sleeve yet) and trying to get her to bark. She is not a vocal dog at all - even if someone comes to the front door she'll stand at the door and stare at them without budging, but no noise. It can be just as unsettling for a stranger, but for this sport we need to find her voice. 

A question about that though, could I be potentially be opening a can of worms by encouraging her to bark? As in will it make her an excessive "barker" once she learns to enjoy barking? I've noticed a lot of the dogs at Schutzhund will carry on barking while crated in the car or in their trailers, would hate for her to start doing that.. 

Something interesting I heard on a doco on wolves once was that only juvenile wolves will bark and once they mature they no longer bark (according to the narrator on the show anyway). This tendency to bark in dogs may be a a wolf cub/ pup characteristic that is retained in the adult dog and due to domestication we have affectively stunted the mental maturity of the wolf in that regard, to produce barking dogs so that we can be alerted to intruders. 

Anyway thanks for your responses, I love that there is so much advise and information on this forum and I've always had someone if not multiple people assist me with my queries.. I really appreciate it.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I love it when Rorie barks its like she talking to me-I know you loose points but I love it also taught her to whisper -its like we share secrets-when I barked I really lost points all of them in fact oh well


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I allow my dogs to bark while doing obedience but not during an actual command. They can bark at me if I'm "teasing" them and even vocalize while we're tugging and playing but as soon as I give a formal command - no barking. So far I haven't had issue with this, I haven't had to teach them NOT to bark when doing a formal command. Maybe giving them a time when they CAN bark helps them not "leak" and be vocal during the actual execution of the command?


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## atruepastime (Mar 12, 2011)

I see so I can give her a voice command to bark during the hold and bark so she performs the behaviour upon request.. that sounds like a plan.. we used a fence to get her to bark during our last session (tug toy on the other side to build frustration) when she finally did bark, it was the wussiest squeaky bark I'd ever heard..! She has barked once when she felt someone had come too close to our car and that was a proper deep bark that shocked us all - firstly because she never barks and secondly, it was bloody loud because of being in a small closed of space! Anyway at least she made a sound of some sort! I guess we have to start somewhere..


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## coolgsd (May 1, 2010)

atruepastime said:


> Hi all, I'm fairly new to the sport - we've had a total of 6 sessions to date at the club I attend, and I have been recommended to start using a prong collar on my 13 month old female gsd. I guess I was curious to know how important is it to use a prong collar in this sport - EVERYONE uses one at the club I train at and I'm wondering if its a stock standard method of correcting/ controlling a dog in this sport (aside from e-collars). Prior to starting Schutzhund I've been using a gentle leader in high traffic places, or a check chain on our walks/ runs. I rarely have to correct her when we are walking, just if there is another dog present it gives me added control as she will sometimes try to lunge to play with other dogs. Can I use other methods of correction (voice & check chain) or is the prong collar the best way to go? Thanks!


You are training a dog to find, hold and bite a bad guy. If you cannot see green dogs that bite when they shouldn't then you are in a rare club. If you are not in absolute control then you are a liability to your dog and those your dog feels uneasy about. Dogs get "pissed" as well as feel uncertain at times. One that has had a sharp correction at the right moment will respect the collar and the handler/owner. I would not want your dog around me or mine if you did not have some ability to assure restraint and control.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

10 year old thread


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