# When poor decisions can mean death



## Floppy (Feb 26, 2011)

When poor decisions can mean death - National Dogs | Examiner.com

Not sure if this is the whole story but if the person was just bit while breaking up a fight as reported I don't get putting the dog down


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

That poor dog didn't get in the hands of one person with proper common sense...


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

There must be more to the story. The way it reads, the rescue and the foster home are idiots.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Why on earth was he treated the way he was?? A dog park- right after surgery, right after being introduced into the home. Oh jeez. And how can MAGSR give up on him so quick? Poor Alex.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And unfortunately with all the press and attention - I am seeing it as they are now backed into a corner - the famous biting dog - how do you undo that??? Now they are front and center liability wise, moreso than if it had not gone viral.  

Not a lawyer, don't know how you could get around this now or if it's not a problem. But would imagine if you have pages of Internet evidence that a dog bit once (for whatever reason) and you adopt it out...and it even grabs someone, that person is going to be thinking payday. Gotta love all the "help" he's getting. 

To me, someone smart in that group needs to adopt that dog toot sweet.


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## ShenzisMom (Apr 27, 2010)

I think its sad that half the people who read that story are going to want to see the dog dead and the other half wondering why he was failed so miserably...


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Not a lawyer, don't know how you could get around this now or if it's not a problem. But would imagine if you have pages of Internet evidence that a dog bit once (for whatever reason) and you adopt it out...and it even grabs someone, that person is going to be thinking payday. Gotta love all the "help" he's getting.


Not a lawyer either but I play one on TV. JK. But really, this dog can't be adopted out. We have to be really careful about taking dogs on if they have a bad evaluation written up somewhere (not even by us) because you can't undo that and heaven forbid something happens and someone finds that evaluation and says we knowingly adopted out a dog that bites. A rescue can be put out of business by just one dog. Sometimes, you have to look at the bigger picture.

I love all the "help" as well.... everyone is so quick to pass judgement and blame the fosters but I don't seen anyone actually doing anything that doesn't involve a keyboard.

The "facts" just don't add up and I wonder where this internet reporter got her information. 

And I will make it perfectly clear: I am not supporting the rescue or fosters. Simply saying that as usual, we don't have all the information and it bugs me when people burn others at the stake because of internet stories.


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## shadowsMom1211 (Dec 30, 2008)

I was just coming over here to post this. 

Alex was just horribly abused by his foster. To take a dog out that JUST had surgery (that was not reccommended!!!) is stupid. That foster should never get another animal again. Alex should have been crated and nursed and babied, not out made to be other dogs.


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## shadowsMom1211 (Dec 30, 2008)

If you go to the Facebook page for Alex (https://www.facebook.com/groups/183283791737964/?id=184200984979578&notif_t=group_activity it gives more details.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

Oh wow, it seems to me to show that rescues don't often times get dog savvy people as fosters, rather people who 'love' dogs and 'want to do good' by them. I don't think this dog should ever have been placed with this foster -- apparently the foster lacked all levels of common sense :/ 1. What were they thinking to take this poor dog to a dog park!?!?!?! 2. Why was this dog allowed to be throw into the foster setting with other dogs before being able to fully recover?? 

I've fostered dogs before, I have quite a few dogs of my own, but I always keep the fosters away from my pack until they have time to de-stress and until I have time to work with them and gage their personality. Only then do I allow introductions and those are done slowly and only one dog at a time. After introductions the new dog is kept on leash with me for a few days so that he/she can learn the ropes.

Maybe rescues should provide literature to fosters on the dos and don'ts of fostering  

I'm all for saving Alex! Poor dog


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

That FB page has got some pretty interesting info omit if it's true. One person is saying those bites are from more than one dog abd that Alex's teeth are in too poor of shape to have made them. This is extremely disturbing.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

From the FB group:
A summary: This unfortunate event was caused by poor judgment initiated upon Alex's arrival to MAGSR and does not represent the true temperament of this dog. Alex was described by Caroline Mandel, President, MAGSR, as absolutely stunning and one of the friendliest boys she has met in a long time. Loves everyone, no reaction to other dogs.

Tuesday - Alex, 6-7 yr old GSD was flown from Los Angles, CA, and arrived in Newark, NJ on Tuesday, June 7, 2011. Alex was driven to MAGSR vet office in MD. Alexi was 30 lbs underweight, had a severe, chronic ear infection oozing puss, upon arrival.
Wednesday - Alex was bathed and examined.
Thursday - Contrary to TWO vet's recommendation from CA, Alex was Neutered/shots/ears flushed (CA vets wanted Alex to gain weight and recover from his ear infection)
Friday - Foster obtains Alex from the vets – on pain meds and continued use of antibiotics for prior severe ear infection/given standard discharge instructions, restricted activity, short leash walks, etc.,, That night Alex showed no interest in foster's male but flirted with the female to which she gave him a strong corrective response, which he apparently reacted to very well. 
Saturday - Foster takes Alex to Quiet Waters Dog Park (Off leash - Alex tried to hump other dogs, one dog rolled him, another snapped at him. Alex ignored them and went to the park’s gate.)
Sunday morning - Alex is accused of bites to foster in connection with one of foster's dogs that was not getting along with Alex; He's taking full blame.

There's no excuse for the poor judgment and actions exhibited in this situation by MAGSR representatives. Numerous errors created a very bad environment for Alex. Although Alex has lost his chance to be placed in a home, please take the above circumstances into account and allow Alex a chance to live at OAS. Email [email protected]


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

In order to do the most you can for as many animals as possible, sometimes, I suppose people with less experience end up fostering for them. One would hope that every single dog would go to a loving, dog savvy home, where the foster will take pictures and show the whole of them on an internet forum. 

Unfortunately, the number of people in the world willing and able and naturally given to this situation is few. 

So you would hope that the rescue would give good training to fosters, and screen them, and test them, and do home checks, and the whole nine yards.

The reality is that these are organizations dependent on donations and volunteers. Money that goes for training or the foster program does not go to dogs. Sometimes willingness to help goes much further than natural ability or experience, knowledge, etc. 

I feel for the dog, and I hope somehow they can give this dog a shot somewhere. But everyone who disses the rescue out to be out there signing up to their local rescue to volunteer for something, foster, funding, training, something. Otherwise we are all a part of the problem, because sitting back and grousing about what happened isn't going to change or help things.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

a little OT here, but just this week big thing in the news here, a sibe killed the neighbors chickens,,AC came in took him, and deemed him DANGEROUS, euth ordered, the newspapers, tv got in on it, and got the euth order reversed He's going to live with a rescue in MA..(BTW this dog was NOT human aggressive)


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

JakodaCD OA said:


> a little OT here, but just this week big thing in the news here, a sibe killed the neighbors chickens,,AC came in took him, and deemed him DANGEROUS, euth ordered, the newspapers, tv got in on it, and got the euth order reversed He's going to live with a rescue in MA..(BTW this dog was NOT human aggressive)



 Because he killed CHICKENS!! That is crazy!! That is what dogs, especially huskies, with SUCH a high prey drive do. JEEZ! That doesn't make them dangerous, that makes them DOGS!! What's next, are we going to label a dog "dangerous" because it chased a cat?? Good grief, people have less and less common sense every day it seems.


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## Floppy (Feb 26, 2011)

From what I read on the facebook since they are the "owners" (the rescue) they have to be the ones to appeal for him not to be euthanized but they voted not to appeal. Thus he will be euthanized by the end of the week unless something is submitted.

Really a shame  If another rescue offered to take him I don't see why they wouldn't appeal. Hope it's not politics within their board.


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## weber1b (Nov 30, 2008)

Another incident that shows how common sense is not common. I know there are many people on this forum who are a lot more experienced and knowledgeable than I, but there is so much about this that stinks. I have taken two dogs in from shelter situations and did short terms fosters on two others. All of those dogs spent a week isolated and allowed to chill into new environments. No way would they go to a dog park of all places, nor have immediate contact with other dogs in the home. I sure hope this poor fella can somehow make it out of this mess alive instead of being another sad statistic. I would imagine there is more to this than we know, but from here it does sit right.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

DharmasMom said:


> Because he killed CHICKENS!! That is crazy!! That is what dogs, especially huskies, with SUCH a high prey drive do. JEEZ! That doesn't make them dangerous, that makes them DOGS!! What's next, are we going to label a dog "dangerous" because it chased a cat?? Good grief, people have less and less common sense every day it seems.


in most areas, it is legal to shoot a dog that attacks livestock. And, yes, a dog that attacks livestock is dangerous. The neighbor called AC because the owner didn't keep the dog contained. Wouldn't you call AC if a neighbor's dog attacked Dharma while you were in your yard? Those of us with livestock count on them for food/money; some people view their chickens as pets (all of ours have names)

In WV, it is actually illegal to rehome a dog that has killed livestock. The dog MUST be euthanized.

§ 19-20-17. Same--Unlawful to harbor dog; penalty A person who shall harbor or secrete or aid in secreting a dog which he knows or has reasons to believe has worried, chased or killed any sheep, lambs, goats, kids, calves, cattle, swine, show or breeding rabbits, horses, colts or poultry not the property of the owner of the dog, out of his enclosure, or knowingly permits the same to be done on any premises under his control, is guilty of a misdemeanor, and, upon conviction thereof, before any court or magistrate having jurisdiction thereof in the county in which the offense is committed, shall be fined not less than ten dollars nor more than fifty dollars, and, at the discretion of the court or magistrate, imprisoned in the county jail not more than thirty days. Each day that the dog is harbored, kept or secreted shall constitute a separate offense.


ETA: and YES, I have shot dogs for attacking my chickens. Sadly, I'm not allowed to shoot their owners, so I have to protect what is mine. There is no leash law here and animal control doesn't handle "non-stray" dogs so if the dog is wearing a collar, they won't pick it up. 1st time the dog is here, I have the deputies come out and tell the owner what the law says can be done. The next time, no more dog.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> in most areas, it is legal to shoot a dog that attacks livestock. And, yes, a dog that attacks livestock is dangerous. The neighbor called AC because the owner didn't keep the dog contained. Wouldn't you call AC if a neighbor's dog attacked Dharma while you were in your yard? Those of us with livestock count on them for food/money; some people view their chickens as pets (all of ours have names)
> 
> In WV, it is actually illegal to rehome a dog that has killed livestock. The dog MUST be euthanized.
> 
> ...


 
A dog attacking chickens is chasing PREY, the same as if it were a rabbit or a squirrel and that dog is no more dangerous. You can not compare dog on dog aggression to a dog with a high prey drive chasing and killing what it sees as PREY. A dog cannot differentiate between chickens that are being raised for someone's livilihood and a wild rabbit in the woods without being taught to do so. 

No one said you are not allowed to protect what is yours. I don't have a problem with you doing what you have to. I have a HUGE problem with the dog's owners letting their dog run free but that was not what my post was about. Just because a dog has a high prey drive and kills prey animals - be it rabbits, squirrels, chipmunks, cats or chickens- that does not make the animal dangerous or in need of being euthanized. It does mean the animal needs a strong handler and some serious training though.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Floppy said:


> From what I read on the facebook since they are the "owners" (the rescue) they have to be the ones to appeal for him not to be euthanized but they voted not to appeal. Thus he will be euthanized by the end of the week unless something is submitted.
> 
> Really a shame  If another rescue offered to take him I don't see why they wouldn't appeal. Hope it's not politics within their board.


 
He has offers from other rescues and a sanctuary. MAGSR took down their FB page last night (or made it private) due to all the comments they are getting concerning this. Even their own volunteers are upset. It sounds like one of the rescues has gotten lawyers involved. Hopefully, it works out for Alex. 

It is a shame that MAGSR isn't realizing how bad this is making them look. This coming on top of the breeder thing a few months ago (whatever happened with that- did she get the dog back?) is really making them look bad all the way around. I know it is only a few people that are causing this, maybe it is time to replace the ones who seem to cause the drama. This rescue does a lot of good, it should not get destroyed over this.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

And many dogs will kill cats while in prey drive. Also small dogs. Does that mean that none of tholse animals should be declared dangerous as well? Legally speaking, any dog that attacks a domesticated animal is dangerous. If the owner refuses to be responsilbe, then it is up to animal control to take care of the prblem


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

PR is very important. I can understand not being able to adopt out a dog with a bite history - no matter the circumstances. I can also understand a rescue not taking on a dog with a bite history. In this case, however, MAGSR already committed to this dog. I do not know why the dog came from so far away. I do not know why he had to travel, before his ears had healed and he was infection free. At this point, MAGSR has a responsibility to find an option that will work for this dog. Have the dog evaluated by a behaviorist. If a sanctuary or rescue is offering help - let him go. Situations like this negatively impact all rescues.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

something I wanted to add, since the article about the Sibe was also posted on a chicken forum I am a member of. It wasn't a one-time case of the dog got out and killed some chickens. The owner was ticketed and warned numerous times about the dog harassing livestock. It was a case of once too many.

The incident involving the dog in the OP is entirely different. The dog didn't have a previous history of attacking people or even acting aggressively. The dog should get a thorough evaluation by someone qualified


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Dainerra, you are probably right, about the sibe , so who ends up being punished? The dog, who's fault is it? the owners. Here in CT we can shoot a dog chasing livestock, would I? depends. 

I don't think the dog should be punished because his owners are stupid and I'm glad he's getting a chance to redeem himself. I think the AC went a little overboard in declaring him "dangerous"..sure he's dangerous to chickens but not humans. It's easy to keep a dog away from 'chickens'.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> something I wanted to add, since the article about the Sibe was also posted on a chicken forum I am a member of. It wasn't a one-time case of the dog got out and killed some chickens. The owner was ticketed and warned numerous times about the dog harassing livestock. It was a case of once too many.



And the OWNER should have been punished. Those dogs are high prey drive dogs and they require special and experienced handling. We all know that. That doesn't make them so dangerous that they need to be put down. And yes sometimes a high prey drive dog will kill a smaller dog or a cat, that doesn't make them dangerous, that makes their owners irresponsible. I looked into adopting one at one point, I was told flat out that they had way to high of a prey drive for my house since I had a cat and my cat would not be safe. If I had gotten one anyway, it would have been MY fault, not the dog's if my cat had been killed. That would not have made the dog "dangerous". It would have made me irresponsible. And crazy.

A "dangerous" dog is, IMHO, a dog that will attack HUMANS aggressively and without cause. Not a dog that follows it's instincts for prey. That is up to the HUMAN owner to control with training and containment. 

I am glad he got a second chance, hopefully with people who will train and exercise him appropriately and keep him away from all prey animals.


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## SummerwoodSoaps (Feb 3, 2011)

Dainerra, are you on BYC?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And the rescue's side of it. Hard to argue with a medical report...

The rescue's response to Alex the German shepherd - National Dogs | Examiner.com


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks for posting Michelle. 

I'll keep my comments on the "reporting" to myself. I hope that all the people in an outrage over Alex will find a way to save him and maybe realize some of the very tough decisions that rescues sometimes face in the process. Saving this one dog to avoid bad press could indeed cost thousands of other dogs' their lives.... it probably already has.

I hope the foster recovers and has learned from the very stupid mistake of taking the dog to the dog park (although that doesn't appear to have much to do with the events that lead to this situation).


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think it's entirely possible that Alex was completely overwhelmed. New environment, surgery, prong collar (was it a prong? and had he ever had one on before?), dog park. What did the other dog do that Alex reacted too? Was it redirected aggression or a response to a very hard pull on the prong collar? 

However, I've pulled dogs, had them in a new environment, had surgery, had them around strange dogs, put a prong collar on them (100 lb young male) and never had one come up my arm at me.

I also hope they find a way to save Alex and the foster recovers. I hope ALL fosters learn something from this event. There are way to many unanswered questions in this situation.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> There are way to many unanswered questions in this situation.


Exactly. And as usual, WE (general public) will probably never learn them. 

I know it seems like I am supporting the group but I'm not. I just understand the legal liability they now have (which was made even worse by all the publicity). 

Many mistakes were made. And, yes, the dogs will suffer and not just Alex. Hopefully people learn from these mistakes though.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Interesting. That Tammy Shiprak who wrote the report has been posting on the Save Alex FB page. People there are claiming that the actual story has changed several times (dog fight, foster had him in a prong and "popped" the prong, etc). I don't know what to believe except that MAGSR has screwed up really bad with this, if nothing else they their reputation has been savaged. Between this and the controversy earlier this year with the breeder, they really don't look good right now. 

They are continuing to claim that they would be forever liable for Alex. I don't understand how that is true. The rescues that are willing to take him ( and at least one has experience rehabbing aggressive dogs) say that this is not true. There are A LOT of angry people on that page, many of them in rescue. I would hate to see MAGSR be ruined over this, they have done a lot of good over the years and there are dogs out there that need them.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> They are continuing to claim that they would be forever liable for Alex. I don't understand how that is true. The rescues that are willing to take him ( and at least one has experience rehabbing aggressive dogs) say that this is not true.


According to our lawyer, it is true. If Alex EVER bit another person again, that person could turn around and sue the rescue for knowingly adopting out a dangerous dog. Especially with all this media attention, you can't hide the fact that he has biten a person before. And in a lawsuit, it likely wouldn't matter if it was an accident or not. Saving Alex and adopting him out puts the rescue at risk for a future lawsuit that could shut them down forever and then all the dogs that they could have saved, wouldn't be. Does the choice suck? YES! But it's a very real risk of doing rescue.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

I am certainly not a lawyer but I really don't understand. They are not adopting him out. Another rescue is taking him. There is not any talk of adopting him, but of actually rehabbing him at their place in AZ. Why would the liability not then be on them. They are willing to sign a waiver. So wouldn't that put all of the liability on them, RHI (I can't remember exactly what it stands for). Especially if THEY adopted him out at some point. I can understand why they (MAGSR) can't adopt him out or send him to an individual home, certainly, that is WAY too much liability on them. 

I REALLY hate that everyone in this country is so freaking sue happy and that it has come to a point we all have to make life and death decisions based on whether or not we will get sued.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

DharmasMom said:


> Another rescue is taking him. There is not any talk of adopting him, but of actually rehabbing him at their place in AZ. *Why would the liability not then be on them*.


Because of this:



DharmasMom said:


> I REALLY hate that everyone in this country is so freaking sue happy and that it has come to a point we all have to make life and death decisions based on whether or not we will get sued.


Truthfully, I stopped reading about the details because I was tired of reading people blindly bashing the group and the foster instead of just discussing and trying to help find solutions so I know very little about other groups trying to take him because I had to weed through way too much nonsense.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, there is a lot of angry bashing to weed through. But there are people that are REALLY trying to help as well. This one rescue in AZ has successfully rehabbed truly aggressive dogs in the past (I don't think they get adopted out though) and are ready and willing to take him and will sign any and all releases. They were even supposed to file papers in court in AA county today to try and gain custody of Alex. 

It seems to me that all risk and liability would then be on them and if anyone were to get sued it would be them, for knowingly taking him.


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## 4dognight (Aug 14, 2006)

This is a sad situation A lot of mistakes have been made One costing a dog his life. I have worked with MAGSR in the past . I have not been involved in years. I believe this foster was inexperienced although she claims she was. (I would never take a new dog to a dog park nor used a prong untill I knew him. I always give my fosters a week to settle away from my dogs then slow intro.). The fact is MAGSR is on 0 intake and has shut their forums down. They have saved many a dogs life. Hopefully some of the sane vol will regroup and learn from the mistakes made. I feel badly about Alex and the folks that brought him from one side of the country to another. Think how they feel.......................... Please know I am not siding with this rescue just making a comit. There can never be too many "good" GSD rescues. I am not for sure about this rescue now


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Update - Alexi has been adopted

*November 25, 2011 - *German shepherd named Alexi, was "saved" from a high kill facility in Los Angeles, CA. Alexi made his way to the East coast where he was taken in by Erich Grasso to be cared for, rehabilitated and trained. Alexi has now been adopted and found a wonderful home! The Lexus project has successfully fought for Alexi's right to live. Click here


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

OMG that is awesome! Thanks for sharing that.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thanks for posting. He is a good looking dog. I am glad he has a new home. I think that it was all just too much too soon for the dog. I am glad he got another chance.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I am so glad he has a happy ending


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