# Nickolas journal of a dog's development



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

All Things "Dog": POST 1 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Read this on my break. Can you give me some links or places I can read about genetic obedience. My break is almost over but Ill check back at lunch. BTW Thanks for this link .


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for posting this Carmen! I will definitely be following this blog (and hopefully I get to meet Nickolas!)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well I hated how this thread started because I wrote a long piece which was like the forewards in a book which would have explained the genetic obedience FIRST then this link.

If a moderator could delete the thread I would like to start over -- it makes much more sense then.

I tried but it wouldn't delete , remove, cancel.

it will be better for all


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Thank you for this!! I will be following, as I think it will be a great help to me raising my new pup. Will you post when you update this?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

POST TWO -- raising the pup -- GENETIC obedience on youtubey. Some 30 years ago I demonstrated an entire litter for genetic obedience that was for the benefit of the raisers and selection committee for a guide dog institute. It was put on the film available at the time . I have reels of film that I would watch when my husband borrowed a projector (dinosaur technology for you young guys) from his high school's AV (audio visual) department.

So here it is on camera - with Mike after he only had the dog for one hour.

All Things "Dog": Post 2 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## rshkr (Feb 9, 2012)

hi carmen, if ever you make a new thread, please let me know as i am subscribed to this thread.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

in this post I am showing you genetic obedience --- this dog was offering all this behaviour naturally -- demonstrated this to several visitors at my house when he was 6 - 7 weeks , and OFF property doing the exact same thing. 
the topic genetic obedience was covered here http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/161374-genetic-obedience.html

there is another blog coming soon which will be compressed into several days worth of excursions -- nothing is edited . This is how I look at my stock to make breeding decisions.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

Great read, that pup is very impressive.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Hello Carmen,

Great reads I'm going through it and it was interesting on the "natural" obedience part, and the first day spent together. Just wondering is your house a single human? Seems a strange question but when you said the pup laid at your feet while you were blogging (Minus the cat) I'm just wondering if there are other humans around that the Pup would go to for attention.

What your raising this pup to be (And all the pups you raise and train it seems) is exactly what I'm hoping to do with mine. I really want a people neutral dog who is calm secure and attached to our Family pack and everyone else is irrelevant. (Not hostile but not important)


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## *Lisa* (Nov 20, 2011)

Thanks for the link on Genetic Obedience, it's very interesting!

Carmen, Nick is an awesome little guy! We saw him on Saturday while we were training with Mike. He came bursting out of the door, and down the stairs to be with Mike and immediately went into a natural heel following him around on the grass. He came over and said hi to my husband & I, and then back to Mike he went. He naturally retrieved a glove we tossed around, and laid down with Mike when he was done. It was very cool to see from such a young pup! 

Trent - Carmen is Nickolas' breeder, but Mike (Michael Clay) is the one writing the blog posts and Nick is living with him.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Ah okay I was impressed how the pup laid beside him and wondered if he was the only person living there


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Thanks for the link and the post. I've developed a better understanding of being people neutra. The video was impressive particularly w/ Nick's age.l


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Trent - both Mike and I have very busy households with lots of interruptions from people coming to visit or do business . No the house is not just one person .

What the dog has to offer is genetic obedience. It is not trained - it is freely offered by the dog . It comes from a robust self confidence , not an unhealthy dependency .

This is why I asked a young couple on this forum to test for the dog that had a natural attraction to THEM , not to treats . 

The dog is social . He is a warm , interested, interactive dog ready to venture out and make contact with people .

The laying beside Mike in the house. That was by the dogs choice.

In my house while the pups are with me , especially for dogs staying on for a longer period , either because the perfect home has not become available or because the new owner wishes me to hold the dog and provide levels of training before they bring the dog home. An example would be about 3 years ago I had a repeat customer . Their beloved dog passed away at a grand old age . In the interim the lady was challenged with cancer , had been battling it for a long time , 10 years successful , and then it reared its head again. She wanted a dog , felt it gave her reason to carry on , the husband had concerns . In the end I selected a dog very much like a Nickolas type . Genetic obedience . She needed something extremely biddable . I held on to him till he was over a year old doing sophisticated training that would make the dog perfect for her . So during the day he would be a house dog . When I was in my office he would lie in the hallway at the doors entrance . Or he would lie under my heavy oak table which serves as my desk . 

Genetic obedience , and this dog Nick being used to help explain and show you what it is about is NOT submissive , servile behaviour . It is the free choice of the dog to choose to act as a partner . As the dog grows there is an intuitive flow or an anticipation from the dog guessing what he might need to do to be helpful in the exercise.

I can give examples.

Genetically many of the traits come from old heritage working herding lines .

-- sorry D&L's Mom I don't understand this statement "I've developed a better understanding of being people neutra" People are not neutral . The dog is neutral to them . The relationship between the dog and the handler has to be a genuine mutual admiration society. The dog does it for praise and approval. In the video you can see the dog prancing along - natural on the left , with attentive focus , eye contact checks. Mike will stop or in motion give the dog a little scritch , give him a good boy. This was all new to Mike as well.


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## TrentL (May 10, 2011)

Hmm very interesting read I get the idea your saying and look forward to reading more  



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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

What your raising this pup to be (And all the pups you raise and train it seems) is exactly what I'm hoping to do with mine. I really want a people neutral dog who is calm secure and attached to our Family pack and everyone else is irrelevant. (Not hostile but not important

He is not being RAISED this way he was BORN this way . It is not tricks or gimics -- it is the genetics . You have to be deliberate in accumulating the genetics for it , recognize it -- use it well (appreciate) --. 
This blog is an exercise which documents a young dog , his experience , his growth and mastery of skills and talents. The end result should make for an excellent service dog -- but the very same time would make a wonderful pet . 

You want calm and secure -- make sure the pups ARE just that -- because you are not going to MAKE a dog be like that .


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I was referring to the part where Mike describes being cold to strangers. I have not met many GSDs of late who have the aloofness or what Mike was describing as the way people, other then their handler and family, are reacted to. I have heard of aloofness as a breed trait but never really heard it described in actual behavioral terms as to what it might look like. My AKC shepherd was weak nerved and reactive as well as in your face with new people. I did not mean the dog would be neutral to his handler. I took the l off neutral when i edited and could not correct as time had passed.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh - I understand now. Being neutral to strangers and aloof (without fear) is a very important trait written right in to the standard . This makes the dog incorruptible -- a stranger can not influence the dog to take commands. If a dog is a messenger dog -- he has to be totally dedicated to get the message through even though someone may bribe him with a hambone or some such. It keeps the dog on task. This is loyalty , recognizing who you came with , not flirting for attention, receiving it with kind tolerance though , not wearing your heart on your sleeve.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so in recognition that aloof and neutral to strangers in part of the character description of the breed are we being wise and fair to dogs who have nerve issues and selling them the idea that all people are friendly, benign , reward vendors . What does the dog have to do to fight through its nerves, and fight through a genetic characteristic . Then it must come as a shock when some person does not participate in this cookie giving and may be abrupt or loud or threatening . Are they then worse off because the have been sold a dishonesty.

You can't ask critical questions without offering some solution. I would prefer that the handler mirror the confidence they want to see in the dog. Be casual and relaxed , walk up to someone and ask a location or the time or just say , could I just come and talk to you for a moment to help my dog be comfortable in this setting. 

At the regionals while waiting for some judging event to get under way , a person sitting on a bleacher in front of me asked if I would give her dog a cookie to help it. But she stayed in her seat . The dog was very mousy-nervous, lots of back and forth . I don't think the cookie helped on bit.

?

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

carmspack said:


> oh - I understand now. Being neutral to strangers and aloof (without fear) is a very important trait written right in to the standard . This makes the dog incorruptible -- a stranger can not influence the dog to take commands. If a dog is a messenger dog -- he has to be totally dedicated to get the message through even though someone may bribe him with a hambone or some such. It keeps the dog on task. This is loyalty , recognizing who you came with , not flirting for attention, receiving it with kind tolerance though , not wearing your heart on your sleeve.


This is a great explanation, thank you!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I went back and read the thread re genetic obedince and is this accurate? The GSD came from dogs from 4 regions. The dogs that came from the region that were bred for herding(I think these were the smaller dogs rather then the yard dogs who protected the estates) are where you find genetic obedience. It kind of surprised me as when Ive met the Kouvas(msp) and Anatolian shepherds they dont seem to have genetic obedience.In that thread you ,Carmspack talked about needing all four regions to balance and for genetic obedience needing the herding bloodlines. I wondered if it is becoming more difficult to find the herding bloodlines?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Honestly, I've found many herding lines (we have a sheltie like this, and I had an aussie mix like this as well) do have more tendency to just "know" what you want of them.

Libby (my "cover girl") is naturally obedient, and senses or knows what I want. The only training I've done is "tricks", because, she just came "naturally good".


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

msvette2U -- not the same thing , we are not just talking about a docile , compliant dog , but a dog possessing power who chooses to work in partnership. The potential is limitless . In herding these are the dogs that perform without supervision . Shelties and Aussies do not have the drive to patrol a boundary and contain things , nor do they have fight drive , be required to track (which I find highly present instinctually in genetic obedient dogs) The dog is obedient to his genetics .
In the GSD this will require the dog to also have active aggression, the take charge of a situation and come out victorious , (sourced from specific lines and harder to find in the "modern" dog) . 
Do not think for a moment that this is a dog without ambition, quite the contrary , they are big dogs in their own mind -- just wait for the next blog entry . There is not a goofy prolonged puppy phase . This you will see also.
This is why we decided to use this dog and , this time, to document what the dog offers . There have been others . This is a deliberate breeding goal . So when someone asks for training logs , ummm , there aren't any - you just keep providing opportunities for the dog to express it's genetic bounty . You see it, you exploit it , satisfy the dog and cement the bond . 
It is very complex and difficult to explain.

When the pups were about 4 weeks of age I recognized this dog Nickolas to have this fine attribute . 
Because schedules were so crazy this summer time would not allow Mike to come over and view the litter, first time that happened in a long time. So when the pups were 6 weeks I took them over in my van , spent time with them on the lawn , did a demo , just like I did with Ming from another litter , and left them in good hands of Mike and daughter. I had an appointment a few miles west of Mike's location. On the way back we spent more time and Mike related to me the dogs following , the dogs scrambling over soft tubes, wood pile -- not a problem or hesitation anywhere .

They travelled clean and quite in the crate both ways , about 45 minute drive each time . 

Dog born June 9, dog delivered Aug 28 , so everything you are seeing , will be seeing is within a week of Mike having the dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The GSD came more or less from the mixing of 4 regional types representing the needs for herding performance in that geography. 
Kouvas and Anatolian shepherds are true to their genetics which is to work independant of man , to stay close to their flock and "be the sheep" same of the Anatolian shepherd . They are not meant to perform . 
The border collie has his own genetic template for behaviour in herding. It definitely is not the same as the GSD.

You need to know each group and what they had to offer .
The ideal dog rolls with the punches . Does not diminish in drive when frustrated - has physical and mental stamina , is sensitive with a desire to please but has hardness at the same time bouncing back , being resilient .


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

carmspack said:


> The ideal dog rolls with the punches . Does not diminish in drive when frustrated - has physical and mental stamina , is sensitive with a desire to please but has hardness at the same time bouncing back , being resilient .


Very well said! Can I quote this statement?



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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

any time you want -- you can tattoo it on your arm if you wish . 

you'll see an example in the drive not diminishing with frustration in the next post on the blog.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

This is fascinating reading. I must admit I wish I had this two years ago. 

Can't wait for the next blog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I can use that quote at work and apply it to describe an ideal salesperson.



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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

salesperson , how about Head of State , self


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Very true



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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

here is installment number 3 .

The first blog recorded Nick one hour after having been left with Mike, then a day or so later.

Dog born June 9 2012 - delivered Aug 28. So Mike has had him just over one week.

The first time I took the dogs to Mike for an off property visit they did the "heel" , one dog at each of my feet. I sort of hot-dogged it , doing turns and pivots clock and counter clockwise - dogs followed closely. - then I left them for the 2 hours that my appointment took.
Second time out was in the evening and Mike had his friend Jon over . As a just-to-see exercise Mike intstructed Jon to run out , about 100 plus feet and go hide. Well in order to hide Jon had to make this big arc . I restrained the pups . Then when Joh hidden and some moments passed , which built desire for the pups to break loose and find , they were let go and go they did without hesitation with speed and energy and focus . No confusion with what they were going to do . They could have headed to the pond , which was attractive to them, they could have headed to the kennel to our backs - but they did not. Nickolas always lead, always took the initiative . This in its self was interesting to see because the other pup ran to Nick's right side , just behind his shoulder, so slightly back. At the point where the arc began its bend Nickolas stopped nose up , check over each shoulder (direction where scent strongest) and then ran , with brother at side , directly to where Jon hid. Jon was social with them, the pups accepted but then ran back with the same speed -- pups 7 weeks at this time. 
The other dog had already been spoken for by a couple in Baltimore so he was along for the experience. Seeing Nick work with focus when he could have gone off playing with brother confirmed some things. 
So that was the hunt search . 
In the next blog you will see Mike use another instinct , which is the pack drive , which also encompasses hunt search , to his benefit . RCMP tracks to begin are MASTER tracks . It rewards on so many levels . Creates a solid bond . High value reward . In the past Mike and I have started pups , Master tracks , laying out some very difficult tracks - not for the purpose of being difficult but for the reason that once out there some natural change in topography presents only one solution. One example was a very young dog that had to figure out that I had to jump a span 5 or 6 feet across , 3 feet deep , with the bottom filled with water . That leaves a great gap in the next scent imprint in addition to behaviour of the scent which may have pooled in the bottom or have been blown away on the next level . The dog was successful. A dog that 
fails at a Master track consistently is removed from consideration. The natural drive to find , especially for such an important goal, is too low , which will not stand it in good for REAL life tracks . Sport okay . Such a dog will never be presented for service. It is my experience that other drives will be weak or unreliable.

when these youtubeys were done we were experiencing some extreme temperatures - high 90's but humidity pushing the discomfort level higher .

so have a look All Things "Dog": Post 3 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and Perfect Companion


then look at his first ON line track -- you will see the drive and persistance in spite of getting himself caught up in the long line . Kaitlin is turning out to be a wonderful handler , has that "feel" for the dog (in addition to being just a great kid ) . Nothing is being done to bring the dog in. This is a Master track. There is only one reward and that is Mike at the end - no food , no play at this moment. In this youtubey you can see how satisfied the dog is after having made the find . He STAYS with Mike with a real self-satisfied look to him.
When we did the very very first send away with a complete stranger (Jon) the pups were happy and came galloping back with airplane ears and were reinforced by my delight in their performance.


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## starburst (Jun 9, 2012)

Wow, that is very impressive,especially for his age.
He didn't get distracted or give up even when he didn't find him right away !


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I love the way he used his nose towards the end.

This little guy appeared to have awesome drive.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes lots and lots of drive - but very calm and sensible NOT this 



 - that is hyper -- look at Nickolas in his home choosing to lay quietly by Mike's feet , look at Nickolas at the sod farm while Jon is in the far distance laying tracks. The dog is laying by Mike's knee -- off lead , not even a collar , happy and relaxed, chilling out -- till Jon comes in to view where he becomes aware and when closer ventures forward with confidence to see who and what this guy is all about.

The video with young Kaitlin handling -- this is in an area that see regular traffic so is not pristine such as a sod farm would be. The dog needs to learn about scent and is allowed to make decisions , right and wrong . He goes back and forth , confirming the scent back at the beginning. In frame 1:30 when dog and Kaitlin break away he has "found" the scent pool and goes in the direction that the air current may be carrying it - goes - wrong - frame 1:43 realizes that scent is diminishing , goes back in - frame 1:50 he has caught the scent pooling 1:51 you see him do an about turn , nose up , committed to an area -- really on to it frame 2:13 on , just needs to zero in which he does.

There is no assistance sought nor offered .

This is how we start our dogs for tracking. Later on the fine tuning comes with difficulty, age, wind , cold, heat , standing water , surfaces . Real tracking is all about decisions and interpretations which the dog needs to practice to master his senses.


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

I watched the videos and read the blog. Im not sure which impressed me more his off leash search or his interaction with the adult dogs. i watched as mike described nick's heeling as being natural obedience. That was very impressive. everytime nick sniffed one of the dogs he went back to mike to check in and sit. It was almost like he was saying Do you need me to do something for you or whats next?I dont think Ive ever seem that in any dog .


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Wow! What impressed me most is the puppy himself. We hear so much talk of building this and training that. While this puppy is clearly being raised by knowledgeable folks, to me this is not training; this is who the puppy is. And, who the puppy is results from the knowledge and thoughtfulness of the breeder. Hats off to you Carmen!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Carmen, can you post Nickolas' pedigree? Or direct me to where you already did?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Carmen, I have a question about drive, calm, etc...

Looking at your videos, one thing that separates yours and many others on this site, is the environment. Your pup is in a serene environment, without distractions, and a minimal amount of surrounding stimulation.

How much of a role do you think the environment is playing in Nickolas's development?

Do you think you'd get the same results in a congested city environment like mine? Lots of dogs, cars, passing motorcycles, lots of constant distractions, etc....


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## marshies (May 18, 2011)

I want to ask about how Nick is introduced to the other dogs. Mike says his idea is to show Nick with his own dogs that there is no possibility of the dogs erupting into spontaneous play. How does this translate for pet dog owners? Should experiences with other dogs stay the same way? What of play dates?


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Daisy&Lucky's Mom said:


> I watched the videos and read the blog. Im not sure which impressed me more his off leash search or his interaction with the adult dogs. i watched as mike described nick's heeling as being natural obedience. That was very impressive. everytime nick sniffed one of the dogs he went back to mike to check in and sit. It was almost like he was saying Do you need me to do something for you or whats next?I dont think Ive ever seem that in any dog .


Ok I watched the videos a few more times.I was wrong He's not saying what can I do for you its more OK what are WE doing .Nick's interest isnt in the other dogs really and they are not really very interested in him.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Do you think you'd get the same results in a congested city environment like mine? Lots of dogs, cars, passing motorcycles, lots of constant distractions, etc....


I'm not Carmen, but dogs with strong nerves and "genetic obedience" are not overwhelmed by the distractions of a congested environment. They just learn to ignore it and focus on their owner.

A very sensitive dog with weak nerves can get easily frightened in such environments, and it takes a lot more time for them to adjust and learn to shut it out. Some dogs never can get over it, but most do, to some degree, with a lot of exposure to it.

I've raised pups in both types of environments. A congested city can actually be good for socializing, as long as it's a reasonably controlled enviornment. When you live out in the country, quiet, serene, you have to seek out populated areas to socialize. Some dogs only need a little bit of exposure to the wide noisy people-world, others need a lot more in order to get accustomed to it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Freestep I will reveal the pedigree -- but this is going to be a detail loaded post which at the moment I don't have time for -maybe tonight

Anthony sorry no serene environment -- 

NEW blog entry All Things "Dog": September 2012


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Carmen, I have a question about drive, calm, etc...
> 
> Looking at your videos, one thing that separates yours and many others on this site, is the environment. Your pup is in a serene environment, without distractions, and a minimal amount of surrounding stimulation.
> 
> ...


Nick has been exposed to the downtown core of Oshawa, Bowmanville and Whitby so far. Lots of hustle and bustle, street people and other questionable characters, construction downtown and much, much more. I do not take video of this simply because I need to watch the pup and the people and traffic around him and keep an eye on things in general (my wallet, my well being). He is not rocked by it. Dogs raised in such an environment should actually have an advantage, meaning, that is what is familiar to them. Good nerves equals an easy time settling in regardless of environment. Nick, at his young age, handles it better than many of the adults I deal with (private training clients) who are raised in the burbs or downtown. 

As for serenity... I run a commercial boarding kennel with over 4800 clients. Constant traffic in and out all day long, dogs barking, clients moving dogs on leashes at distances that are perfect for triggering my lesser nerved personal dogs (my other dogs, a briard and a GSD from another kennel) into a frenzy of barking. Out at the back of my property are two agility rings which, at any given time, are being used by agility students and competitors... barking dogs running like mad through a course of equipment. The video where you see Nick tracking with my daughter, well that is right next to those rings, which had 2 classes in them that night. When Nick left the field of view in that video (to the left of the shot) that is the location where everyone parks for the class and a few feet further are the rings where dogs were running at that time.

It may look serene but my neighbours would have a different point of view for sure, LOL. Then, at night, when things finally get quiet, the coyotes start. 

I also forgot to mention, the front of my property has Taunton Road (Steeles Avenue for you Toronto folks) running through it, so vehicle traffic is constant as well. Many loud gravel trucks during the day who use their "Jake-brakes" to slow down for the stoplight at the top of the hill past my home... ugh, I wish that would stop.

Perhaps when we retire I will find somewhere serene to live


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I can add to that , the kids next door to me have dirt bikes that they race up and down the property line -- we have also had several summer long weekends with fire works display , then there is my husband on the lawn equipment taking care of the acres , and in the house there is the whizz of the high speed (blend-tec) blender processing food used in the supplements.

Life is normal -- and the dogs are normal , no kid glove treatment .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

fifth entry -- All Things "Dog": POST 5 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion

in this youtubey there is a 4 month old dog doing scent discrimination. Dog out of sight . Ball hidden under scent cone - primary interest "Mike" and daughter could have been high distraction but dog plows right past them and begins to search the cones. One is accidently knocked down but dog pays no attention to it - continues to look. Finds . Reset- finds, reset finds.


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## AJT (Jun 20, 2012)

Been waiting in anticipation for an update to Nickolas. This is just so awesome to see a dog displaying such natural talent. Please keep the posts coming. I keep telling my boyfriend about this dog and he was like, is this the Jason Bourne of dogs? I'm like...it very well maybe!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

this is a new blog entry -- although the dogs going in to the program are chosen for service sometimes circumstances - need for dogs, dogs maturing , ready at times out of synch with certification courses, other dogs being bought in bulk from brokers , and sometimes a dog needing to be removed from consideration because the dog didn't quite have the fire in the belly to have strong work ethic -sort of like the a guy for hire , punch in and punch out, honest days work but looking forward to it ending and then home to enjoy dinner in front of TV in dog terms.
Badger -- ideal service dog -- can meet any pressure from a hard decoy , not working in prey, and keep rising , and enjoying the fight - yet look at this same dog so totally responsive to a girl , just turned 10 years, handling the dog in agility. 
Fedor - another candidate for service, but when old friend came to me because his previous dog Sensei had passed away , we made Fedor available . Sensei was Simon's dog when he was head chef for a 5 star Michelin restaurant in the Turcs and Caicos. Because this island has no canine police , Simon underwent training and the dog was made available -- locating stolen purses , crime prevention and tourist sweetheart -- especially when Sensei went out to the water's edge waiting for his dolphin friend to come - like clock work , where they would play in the water together to the delight of the tourists. 
So Fedor was one of those dogs - a great deal like Sensei and with a genetic connection which made it all the more nice for Simon. He has gone out and competed in NoseWork and done very well indeed. 

Yes but I think Fé is half French as you see is this photos he seduce judges...








Chef Simon
















No matter where the dogs end up they are good ambassadors .

might help if I provide the link http://mikeclayk9.blogspot.ca/2012_09_01_archive.html


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Thanks for the update. Im really impressed with the stories of Aysa and Badger.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I love reading Nick's updates/videos

What I see, I have seen with quite a few other puppies/owners, so there are dogs producing genetic obedience out there and honestly it's not to hard to find one if you look close enough


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

This is the essence of the breed because of its herding background -- much has been lost through selection. I know from other conversations with the people that Julia Priest tends to have this , and that Ellen Nicklesburg , herding expert , has it . It is not as common , people don't understand it , and often leads to confrontation assigning it to "magic" or some such. Used to that - here or in the past on a genetics forum.
It was uncommon enough for Canine Vision Canada to do a series of some litters nearly 30 years ago so that they made better selections of pups destined for guide work . They did follow ups and I selected 5 pups for their program which were successful.

The Nickolas thread is to share the development of a dog that has it .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anybody -- IF you have it in your litter - share , put out that video , put out that pedigree. The closer it is to old herding lines the more likely you are to finding it -- and if genetic then a high per centage of the litter should have it , just with some there will be degrees stronger or somewhat less.

I do know that some of my dog owners with older dogs , and more experience with other dogs through the years before and since , are worried that they will never find "it" again.

I have lines that do not have "it" . So for the real thing not so common.

By all means lets have a look at all and any that have this .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

All Things "Dog": POST 7 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

Jakoda, glad you love reading the updates and watching the videos. Lots in the next post...

After much prepping of video, detailing events, etc., post #7 is now published. I thought this would be much easier and less time-consuming, but it seems that prepping video, uploading, sharing on youtube takes quite a bit of time, especially with my spotty, rural highspeed internet and the (recent) lengthy videos I am providing.

Here is the link:

*All Things "Dog": POST 7 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion
*
Sorry, it is quite lengthy, but includes video to break it up for those (like myself) who prefer the pictures over the words.  This post covers a bit more of the "additive" training, conditioning Nick to reward-based training, expanding his repertoire of behaviours, exercises that do not go as planned, further socialization, etc., etc., etc., 

I cannot comment in detail on genetic obedience from a breeders point of view, how it is planned for from a pedigree standpoint, etc.. This is not my area of expertise and I will leave that to the experts who have proven to have produced multiple generations of consistent animals, essentially developing their own "strain" of dogs. However, if genetic obedience is so readily available, I too would be sincerely interested in finding other consistent sources of this for future generations, regardless of whether they are going into service or as pets. 

Personally, I am becoming quite distraught with the number GSD's being presented to me with serious behavioural issues, most having no relationship with their handlers and many being difficult to work with for a multitude of reasons. I have been training dogs professionally for about 15 years now and the trend toward reactivity, sharpness and difficulty to build relationship in this breed is not improving (in my experience), so moving toward a more naturally obedient dog would be an huge improvement going forward (although my training income is based on the difficult dogs, so maybe I should rethink that). 

Carmen mentioned above that some of her lines do and some do not have it. I can agree with that statement (as I chuckle to myself). I have experienced both sides of this coin, raising up to 6 dogs at a time that fell into either category to some degree, which can be a challenge for a trainer when having to "shift gears" between dogs. Some were simply machines that did not appear to need me to perform their jobs. Although stable, reliable and motivated, these dogs could be frustrating for a handler who is looking for a dog that is sensitive to them in some way. I used to joke about one specific dog saying that "I could dump him in the woods in a remote location and he would thrive without me and not even care that I had left". On the flipside, there have been others where I developed a very strong bond with and were very responsive with minimal training and had all the same instincts and motivation but were just easier to work with. A (very) few others were quite soft toward the handler, which creates other difficulties.

As far as Nick goes... well... he is different from the rest that I have raised. In fact, he is quite different than what I have experienced with any puppy of any breed in the past 20 years. Responsive without being needy or soft, neutral, easy to teach, focussed on task, etc... let's just say that what I intended to be a blog about the challenges of raising a puppy has turned into a best case scenario, which is fine... not as interesting, but fine. It does give an opportunity to show how I would like exercises to go, but little in the way of dealing with difficulties. Perhaps the next puppy will be a bit more difficult... 

Jakoda, if you have an opportunity, could you please provide any information (video, links, discussions) or experiences that you have had relating to the topic of genetic obedience? It may be helpful to breeders and others to better understand what is being talked about. I have not seen a great deal of it in my experience, but my experience is limited to mostly pet, some sport and service fields in this province.

Carmen, have you provided any discussion regarding pedigree components that you have found to produce genetic obedience? Specific combinations... placement in pedigrees, etc.? Perhaps even components that, although beneficial in a pedigree, may produce the opposite? 

Just thoughts to promote further discussion of this topic, something that I feel is important.

Happy Reading!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Mike asked "Carmen, have you provided any discussion regarding pedigree components that you have found to produce genetic obedience? "

Of course I have would be the answer -- ten years on a genetics lists (euro) and here and there on this forum , giving examples of LeRoy , and others , there have been quite a few over the years . I can go back in to the Dogs In Canada breeders annual from the mid 80's where I used actual quotes from people who wrote me updates on their dogs . I went through a file that I have kept pretty well since I began and read letters from people which were really nice ! to get at the time , and in hindsight valuable because it lets me see consistency throughout the years. The letters by the way were not just from people who loved their dog to bits (yes those too) but from people very familiar and seasoned to GSD throughout the years to working with GSD in some capacity , a little more of a critical look . Comments like "near psychic connection" .
You can believe I am constantly looking at pedigrees and at dogs hoping to find my swing out to bring in fresh blood.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Carmen, Good Stuff....there are many many people who have no idea of the capability of this breed. This is very educational for many. The beauty of this breed is seeing the depth of what this breed can accomplish when it is bred right. Many have no clue about these capabilities that aren't scripted or rote. So it a daunting task to have the correct priorities in breeding when you're not aware of what the breed should be and do!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you Cliff , you , more than anybody else knows how long I have been dedicated to this . Every time I put it out there , whether on the euro or here someone has to bring up the "fantasies--- what are YOU smoking" type of comments. So with this one Mike is documenting from start to finish. Flys in the ointment and all , nothing edited , keeping it real . It IS in the breeding, selecting for herding lines from way back and keeping them perculating through the generations.
Then because this is not the norm you have to spend time retraining trainers . There was an amazing black male from this combination Carmspack Blackjack Johnson - German Shepherd Dog, sorry two amazing black males - and one went up to the RCMP - 2nd dog from me for this handler (Sonar) -- . 
The particular male was demonstrating , tracking - about 30+ feet master track, one sharp angled right turn, through knee high grass , and he had to find the entry without help - demonstrating pack drive and persistance and thinking it out making choices , retrieval to hand , hunt search, sociability the whole nine yards as much as a 6 or 7 week old pup would allow to their physical ability. 
The RCMP "got it" , the schutzhund guy , I don't think he understood how to be with the dog , to allow the dog to offer behaviour , take advantages of situations , the way Mike is demonstrating on the blog. 
Chunko who went to Nationals had "it" - made for a very very easy train .
With these dogs pack drive is high and thresholds tend to be high.
The dog I brought into the fold , black dog "Wilson" from this dogs brother Carmspack Vinny - German Shepherd Dog -- and look a like , except he is a black sable, so darker yet, bred to Brandie Geefacker. There is a female sable name Spelling and a male named Grey and Wilson that have it - Spelling probably the strongest , attending obedience classes which Ruth conducts and she is like a miniature adult - so with a bit of good planning and pedigree selection there should be more in the future for those that appreciate them.


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## psdontario (Feb 2, 2011)

Post #8 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion: Just finished this very brief post last night. Life has been very busy with freelance work so the majority of my work has been during the evenings when filming conditions are not ideal. Nick is still progressing quite well, but I am (as always) not pushing him and just letting him be a puppy for the most part:

All Things "Dog": POST 8 - Raising the Ideal K9 Partner and the Perfect Companion


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to this thread I would like to introduce Carmspack York . He began life as Iorko , a Slavic man's name , which got abbreviated to York and so it stands.

I am adding him to this thread because he shares the same sire as Nickolas - Carmspack Stan . 

York's pedigree is Carmspack Stan

Carmspack Fancy

on this blog site you can see a litter mate of Stan (and Rudy cert Narc dog - Ohio) Elle - KIRA a female hand picked for bed bug detection -- and a litter mate of Fancy (and Badger) Blast , Urban Tracking Dog Excellent at "just" 3 years of age ! 

You can follow the development of Nick on the forum and you can review the development of Blast and Elle- KIRA on this blog Birch-Bark Hill

York was to be my next candidate for raising up for service but the call came earlier than I thought . I could not be more pleased , especially since the people involved know the lines well and were involved in the final training and certification of another male from me Gore "Thor" who is a PD . This young York will be certified as an assistance therapy dog for a person who has PTSD . As I said I could not be more happy , for the dog , for the person.
He will be trained by a person who has himself attained the Master Instructor level of the American Society of Canine Trainers Certification Levels

It is my hope to get updates on his training so that we can compare the two Stan sons.

York is high prey - very quick , yet so easy and calm in the house - not a peep from him. He the potential to be that high level sport dog, that dependable trustworthy fearless police dog , or the caring connected responsive dog for therapy . Here he is ---


​







​--- then as an additional level of understanding the contribution of the different lines
later on I will do the same comparison with results from a litter from the same dam as Nickolas , with a male mentioned many times in "genetic obedience" and "herding" "tracking" Carmspack Sumo littermate to Laurels Journey.

And then later ending out 2013 , (hopefully) a litter which has a combination of the dam side of the pedigree - C litter Parchimerland (Chiba on Nickolas) and Avery (Airdrie Hill Schmetterling) who is the dam of Stan . 
Nick and York will represent the sire side Stan 
pup from Chiba and Sumo and a potential from Chiba's brother Como to Airdrie representing the dam side . 
Finding the genetics.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so what did happen to Nicholas. There was an end to the blog postings after number 8. Shortly after that last entry Nicholas was tested and selected for work and I said that once he completed training and certified I would share the results.

It is official Nick is now a certified working dog in the detail demanding work of bed bug detection .
He is just barely over one year old . Able to find one bed bug in a room ! Certified by a team , his certification taskwas to find 5 vials with a minimal number of bugs per vial, placed in a normal scent contaminated room, allowed 20 minutes to complete task. Nicholas zoomed through it in less than 3 minutes . No false indications. I am sure other things were tested also.
He must work reliably in any environment , no matter the distraction. 

Thanks to all involved .

The owner of Nick , who occasionally visits this forum , may add some comments of his own.

He has just added two young repeats of the Nick litter combination. Two males Arthur and Mercer . I have brother Kade - all born July 15 of this year so still lots of time ahead of them to develop their natural skills.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Carmen, I've been meaning to ask you, how are those puppies doing? If two of them went into a training program that's pretty exciting.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Kade has a potential future as a working dog.

The genetic obedience is every bit as strong as it was with Nick.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Very cool! Thanks for the update Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

There are all sorts of new opportunities for dogs specializing in scent work. A magazine sent to me had a 3 page article on experiments done by a Washington state university in conjunction with British Columbia's dept of Conservation where dogs would be used to locate specifically trained for rare and endangered species . In the article it said it takes thousands of dogs before one is found with the required intensity and duration of drive to do the job.
And now there are bed bugs !
In all the aspects of working hunt/search , scent / tracking are the most neglected .


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

carmspack said:


> so what did happen to Nicholas. There was an end to the blog postings after number 8. Shortly after that last entry Nicholas was tested and selected for work and I said that once he completed training and certified I would share the results.
> 
> It is official Nick is now a certified working dog in the detail demanding work of bed bug detection .
> He is just barely over one year old . Able to find one bed bug in a room ! Certified by a team , his certification taskwas to find 5 vials with a minimal number of bugs per vial, placed in a normal scent contaminated room, allowed 20 minutes to complete task. Nicholas zoomed through it in less than 3 minutes . No false indications. I am sure other things were tested also.
> ...


Fantastic news!


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Thanks for updating us on Nick . I learned alot reading that thread. Congratulations on these young dogs accomplishing so much so early. Thanks!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

That's awesome news!  Though I admit I did shudder a bit, I've never seen a bedbug in person and never want to


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