# Conceiving



## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

Wednesday we took Frau over to a breeder. They locked up withing 30 minutes, at 8:35 p.m. They have only visibly locked up once more, at 7:53 on Friday. Of course, they might have tied without being seen, but we don't want to count on that. Zeus is now showing no sign in Frau at all. They play, but he doesn't want anything to do with her physically. Could it be that the eggs have been fertilized and she is already emitting the hormones that would tell him to back off? I have cared for pregnant pups and whelped accidental litters before from rescue pups, but I have never purposely bred a dog so I do not know about this aspect. 
I want to add that this is her 3rd heat, we have full go ahead from the vet that she is physically ready for a litter. She tried to help raise some rescue kittens so we know mentally she is ready. She started bleeding Saturday morning or Friday night after midnight. (She was not bleeding when we put her in her sleeping kennel at 11:30.) she was only on her 5th day of heat and we didn't expect it to happen so early, but it did. I wanted to ask the vet but being a Sunday I can't ask them.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

You took both your male and female to the breeder's location to breed them? What is your question? Did the female breed with your male or with another male? Are you attempting to have your male breed the female more? 

If she is out and he is not interested, there is not much you can do about it. Next time, if you want to make sure of her cycle, get a progesterone test done. That way you know for sure she has bred during her fertile period. Some females will stand the entire heat so you will not know for sure if she will miss or not. 

Which days of her cycle was she bred? If she was bred twice within 3 days and allowed the male to breed her, most likely she was in and is now out. In a couple weeks time, take her to a vet if you want to make sure.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

Oh no, the male is the breeder's. We wanted to have a progesterone test done, and it was scheduled for Thursday, but when we took her on Wednesday and they locked we figured she was ready. She was on day 5 of her cycle when they first saw them lock up, day 7 the second.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

If you are using a different stud male, why are you allowing your male around your female while in heat? Are you planning for a dual-sired litter?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Some females will flag and stand the entire time. If you have your doubts, get progesterone done. It's simple and you will know for sure. If you want to make sure she is bred this heat, get the test done. But by now, she is probably out anyway. See what happens in 2 weeks time and next time, get a progesterone test done. 

Read this:
http://rrcus.org/rhodesianridgebackhealth/Documents-PDFs/19-30_dobs_0797.pdf
http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/modern breeding management.htm
http://classes.uleth.ca/200601/biol3850n/ovulation.pdf
K9 Breeding Management This one includes a good chart on hormone elevations in relation to the day in the cycle
Breeding Management of Small Animals: Management of Reproduction: Small Animals: Merck Veterinary Manual


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Is "Zeus" the breeders male dog or your male dog?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Some bitches will ovulate early in her cycle. I would wait and see. I think 4 weeks for an ultrasound -- $$, 8 weeks for x-rays -- $. Or you can just prepare for the event.


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> If you are using a different stud male, why are you allowing your male around your female while in heat? Are you planning for a dual-sired litter?


Where did you see that she even has a male? Her signature looks like she has all females. 
The way I read it is that the male, Zeus belongs to the breeder. I don't see where any other male has been mentioned.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

HopefulParents said:


> Of course, they might have tied without being seen, but we don't want to count on that. Zeus is now showing no sign in Frau at all. They play, but he doesn't want anything to do with her physically.


This is why^

No breeder I know just leaves their stud male with an outside female for long periods of time in hopes of a breeding occurring. I just assumed that was her male since they are being allowed to free run together without supervision. "they might have tied without being seen" :thinking:

Breeders will usually breed the pair and they are kenneled separately. A repeat breeding is sometimes done a couple of days later at which time the male and female are brought together once again for a breeding. Then the female goes back to her owner. I assumed based on my experience on how these things usually work


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## GSDGunner (Feb 22, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> This is why^
> 
> No breeder I know just leaves their stud male with an outside female for long periods of time in hopes of a breeding occurring. I just assumed that was her male since they are being allowed to free run together without supervision. "they might have tied without being seen" :thinking:


I guess we just read it differently. I read it that Zeus was the breeders dog. 
And she was wondering why he no longer had interest in her female.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

You are probably correct. I just came into it with my bias since I can't understand why one would leave two strange dogs together with no supervision. If you are breeding, conduct the breeding, help if you need to and go on your merry way. If you breed once or a thousand times, you still have to breed at the correct time for the eggs to get fertilized. I don't understand why you are allowing your dogs to randomly run together without supervision? Why are you guessing if they bred or not? Why aren't you there watching and monitoring them? 
When the female goes into heat, get her progesterone/brucellosis done, visit stud at right time, do the breeding, repeat 2 days later if you really need to and that's all. No reason to let them breed a hundred times hoping for a litter.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

She's not yet even 18 mos old so who knows if she conceived that early in her cycle - it would be unusual, but I guess not unheard of. Not sure why a vet would give you a go ahead to breed her when she's not even an adult yet, but I don't know your vet.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> This is why^
> 
> No breeder I know just leaves their stud male with an outside female for long periods of time in hopes of a breeding occurring. I just assumed that was her male since they are being allowed to free run together without supervision. "they might have tied without being seen" :thinking:
> 
> Breeders will usually breed the pair and they are kenneled separately. A repeat breeding is sometimes done a couple of days later at which time the male and female are brought together once again for a breeding. Then the female goes back to her owner. I assumed based on my experience on how these things usually work


I thought the same and came to the same conclusion.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

spiritsmom said:


> She's not yet even 18 mos old so who knows if she conceived that early in her cycle - it would be unusual, but I guess not unheard of. Not sure why a vet would give you a go ahead to breed her when she's not even an adult yet, but I don't know your vet.


I did not read that he gave the age of the bitch? Where is this info?


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Just had a feeling this was a young dog so I looked back. 

Posted 11/4/11 - 



Update! Here are my girls!
I have to link to the pictures because the darn things won't load!
IMAG0285-1.jpg picture by classicmotorclub - Photobucket

That is Lexi, A 10 month old pretty girl. She has no papers, but She was on CL for free and I really couldn't handle not knowing how she would be treated.

http://s84.photobucket.com/albums/k...-1.jpg#!oZZ2QQcurrentZZhttp://s84.photobucket .com%2Falbums%2Fk21%2Fclassicmotorclub%2F%3Faction %3Dview%26current%3DIMAG0278.jpg

That is Frau Wilhelmina. My 7 month old villain.



That makes her birthdate April 2011 so she is 1 year and 4 months now.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

He gave us the go ahead and said she was physically ready to have puppies, and would be able to carry the litter.


Second, they weren't ever alone really, he and his wife were outside practically the whole time together. They tied when we first brought her there, and he said he separated them when he went in for the night, but there were a few small 20-30 minute spans where the breeder ran inside, or had to do something with his other animals, or whatever where they MIGHT have tied, but otherwise they only tied again two days after.

I know there are those of you that feel only professional breeders should breed, and they should have experience, and whatnot, but have you ever stopped to think about how a professional becomes a pro? I am not looking to be put down, I am just looking for advise on how to properly, effectively, and safely breed my girl, know what is happening, and stay in tune with her every move. If you don't want to help, don't help, but don't criticize someone who TRULY wishes to learn, adapt and raise the best dogs/puppies they can absolutely.

My only question is WHY would he no longer be interested? Would that be because they are done, or would there possibly be a different reason?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Ah...I see that now. In another thread, OP mentions the dog is 18 months old and from a BYB. I take back everything I said. This female is still a baby. Stop what you are doing, spay this female, educate yourself on the GSD and rethink this a long _long_ time down the road. If you've actually raised rescue litters, shouldn't you know better? "BYB" is the term OP used to describe the dog's origin...


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

This could get messy. Shame shame.


Please follow this advice, asap!




qbchottu said:


> Ah...I see that now. In another thread, OP mentions the dog is 18 months old and from a BYB. I take back everything I said. This female is still a baby. Stop what you are doing, spay this female, educate yourself on the GSD and rethink this a long _long_ time down the road. If you've actually raised rescue litters, shouldn't you know better? "BYB" is the term OP used to describe the dog's origin...


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

She's too young to be bred and you haven't had her hips/elbows certified because she's too young for that. This doesn't sound like the kind of dog to be starting a breeding program with. If you really want to do that, spay this girl and educate yourself on what you want and what goals you have in mind for what you want to produce. Then save money and go in search of a female to start your program with. Do all the necessary health tests and get a title or two, then start down the road of breeding her. This just isn't the right dog for that and she is certainly not the right age - she is still a puppy.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't understand why you are so against me breeding? I am working to become a professional breeder. I have to start somewhere, so I started on the advice of my vet. He said she was ready, so we went ahead. 

I have looked into everything. I have raised litters, I have advance homes for 5 of the puppies, and I she has all her shots. We will have full contracts for all prospective owners stating that if they should ever no longer be able to care for their puppy/dog that they return them to me. 

I am going to be attempting to train her for show/competition for AKC and seeing where we go from there. 

She will have Hip/bone checks at 2 years old, and will be getting ratings for her hips. We will be doing everything we can to see where she has come from and where we are going.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm just curious as to WHY you're breeding this dog?

It's good that you are going to attempt all these things, but generally they should be done BEFORE you breed. It seems the vet said she was ready to breed, but so is any female in heat. Doesn't mean the dog should be bred. :-(


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

spiritsmom said:


> . This just isn't the right dog for that and she is certainly not the right age - she is still a puppy.



Why is she not the right dog? I can understand getting everything checked etc. I just don't see why she can't be the right dog? She has a low prey drive, but is a wonderful family girl with a big heart and is extremely smart. Why can't I shape her into the right girl?


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

HopefulParents said:


> If you don't want to help, don't help, but don't criticize someone who TRULY wishes to learn, adapt and raise the best dogs/puppies they can absolutely.


You learn first, then you breed. (maybe) Breeding isnt one of those "learn as you go" sort of things. Hopefully this breeding didnt take so you can spay this female that you really know nothing about, genetically speaking, and start over the right way if you really want to breed.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

If you already planned to get her hips and elbows x-rayed why didn't you do that first before breeding her in the first place? So what will you do if she has this litter and then is found to be dysplastic when you x-ray her at 2 yrs old - what then? Why breed her now, why not have at least waited till the x-rays were done? Yes every breeder has to start somewhere, but this is not the way. I am hoping to become a breeder myself, but I waited till I found the right female, got her health testing done, titles on her and now she is old enough and I am waiting till her next heat next year to breed her. Check out my website and look at Nyxie's page and see all that I have done to get her ready for breeding. Then compare that to your dog.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

If she doesn't have papers how are you going to show her?


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

You said yourself she is from a BYB - that is exactly WHY she is not the dog to start a breeding program with. What more reason than that do you need?


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

Andaka said:


> If she doesn't have papers how are you going to show her?


Where did I say she didn't have papers? She is fully AKC registered


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## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

Does Frau have papers? I'm sure she's a lovely dog but you at least need the pedigrees and hip ratings off both parents to breed. Also, she could die giving birth. Check out the thread "things that can go wrong with breeding." Our friend's min pin died while giving birth.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

spiritsmom said:


> You said yourself she is from a BYB - that is exactly WHY she is not the dog to start a breeding program with. What more reason than that do you need?


So you are telling me that if you looked at the lineage of your GSD you would not find a single BYB and you could attest to the validity of every breeder that had come into contact of any of their ancestors?


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Yes I am telling you that. My dog is not from a BYB - her pedigree is on my site, have a look for yourself.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

HopefulParents said:


> So you are telling me that if you looked at the lineage of your GSD you would not find a single BYB and you could attest to the validity of every breeder that had come into contact of any of their ancestors?


That is part of the purpose go being able to read the pedigree. You always want to know exactly what your breeding and who your breeding to. There's a wealth of information in the pedigree about your dog.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

spiritsmom said:


> Yes I am telling you that. My dog is not from a BYB - her pedigree is on my site, have a look for yourself.



Then I respect that, but everyone has to start somewhere. I am starting here.


It has happened. If you can't help, and just want to criticize, leave me alone. If you decide you would like to assist me without antagonizing me, I welcome it.
BUT I will not abort a litter. I will not even abort a 'maybe' litter.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Please at least sell the pups on limited registration so that the process is not repeated.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> I am working to become a professional breeder. I have to start somewhere,


As others said, start by learning - not by jumping into it not knowing what you're doing.
You've put the proverbial cart before the horse, badly.
*sigh*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't think you should abort your litter or spay your bitch at this point. She is young, and your vet is an ass. Most large breed breeders wait until a dog is two, but at least 18 months old before breeding them. You really should have done pre-lims on her if you were going to breed prior to age two. But pre-lims will not change her hips or elbows. They are what they are, and, even if they were not good, there is no assurance that she will produce poorly.

What makes me uncomfortable is wanting her to be old enough to safely whelp a litter. A GSD isn't completely mature until 18 months to 2 years, and some males seem to take 3 years. The process of pregnancy/whelping takes a lot out of a bitch. And the whelps take what they need. It seems that young bitches often have large litters. I guess I would prefer to hear that you wanted her to be fully developed prior to breeding her. As for safely, well, even older bitches have had serious complications and some haven't made it. 

Why is the dog no longer interested? Hard to say. She may be out of standing heat. I hope both the dog and the bitch were tested for brucellosis. 

I think you need to do a crash course in dog breeding over the next 9 weeks. You have whelped and raised litters before so you are ahead of that game, but you really need to improve you knowledge base so that you can sell your puppies and support their new owners. 

Good luck.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

I too am working to make breeding a serious hobby for myself. My start is much different than your start though. I put alot of time and research into this endeavor and I am now trying to decide what faults my bitch has that I want to improve upon as well as what sort of stud do I want to take her to - what traits will he have that will complement what my bitch will bring to the litter. I am studying different pedigrees now to decide what direction I want to go.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

My 'start somewhere' began with a strong mentor, someone who has been breeding longer than I've been alive. I didn't start with a dog, I started by shadowing and learning. After years I got my first bitch, and I haven't yet bred a litter of my very own. That's fine by me; when I can, it will be with years of education and many heads together.

You've made a start in a direction that may not allow you to learn all that much. You aren't gaining anything new by breeding this female, since you've already had whelping experience. What were you hoping to gain additional experience in with this litter? Knowing the pair tied?

Find someone who can truly mentor you, and find a new vet. Any veterinarian that highly recommends breeding a dog without suitable health testing and under suitable age should not be trusted. Find a reproductive specialist to consult for your next stage of learning and growing.
Before breeding your stock, have them professionally evaluated. How do we do that? We show! Conformation, temperament tests, dog sport... you can't possibly 'know' your dogs are worth breeding unless you have outside parties do the evaluating. Ever heard of 'barn blind'? Lots of folks are 'kennel blind', it's the same drive that makes us proud pet parents. Let a judge (and fellow show-goers) teach you how it's done. Learn with open ears and THEN start looking at having another go at breeding.

In the meantime, enjoy this litter. Whelp them, place them in responsible homes with limited registration, and do not breed your bitch again until she has been health tested and evaluated in the conformation and sport arenas. Then you will have the knowledge and experience it takes to make strong decisions that propel your goals forward instead of pulling them back.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

selzer said:


> What makes me uncomfortable is wanting her to be old enough to safely whelp a litter. A GSD isn't completely mature until 18 months to 2 years, and some males seem to take 3 years. The process of pregnancy/whelping takes a lot out of a bitch. And the whelps take what they need. It seems that young bitches often have large litters. I guess I would prefer to hear that you wanted her to be fully developed prior to breeding her. As for safely, well, even older bitches have had serious complications and some haven't made it.
> 
> Why is the dog no longer interested? Hard to say. She may be out of standing heat. I hope both the dog and the bitch were tested for brucellosis.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your honest and ungrudging opinion. 

I am sorry I did not wait until she was older. He said she was ready so I went on his advise. He has been a vet for 40 years. I thought he would know best. Brucellosis was never metioned by him. What is it an how do I test. If she has it should I cull the litter? (I had to cull one of the rescue pups because they were blind, deaf and had a deformed leg, so I know I can do it if necessary.) What should I do? I am learning, and will continue to learn everything I can long after she has whelped. We have her kennel all set up to be as comfortable as possible and my husband is building a whelping box and holding box for the pups for when we clean the whelping box. All pups will have a puppy starter kit, be 12 weeks before they go anywhere, and full registration will only be given if they spay/neuter before they go home.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

On another note, due to the reluctance I have felt here for her age, I WILL be looking for another vet. Should I go with one that specializes in the breed, or do I look for a more knowledgeable one? I am out in the boonies (Venus, Tx) so it is difficult to find a local vet. What questions should I ask to know whether they know the right thing?


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

marbury said:


> Conformation, temperament tests, dog sport... you can't possibly 'know' your dogs are worth breeding unless you have outside parties do the evaluating.


On this note, how do I go about getting into sports? Do I need a professional trainer? Do I enter her and hope she does well? (somehow that doesn't seem fair) I have looked into it, but all I find are the competitions, nothing on preparing. I want to do it right, but with limited information I don't know where to start.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HopefulParents said:


> Thank you for your honest and ungrudging opinion.
> 
> I am sorry I did not wait until she was older. He said she was ready so I went on his advise. He has been a vet for 40 years. I thought he would know best. Brucellosis was never metioned by him. What is it an how do I test. If she has it should I cull the litter? (I had to cull one of the rescue pups because they were blind, deaf and had a deformed leg, so I know I can do it if necessary.) What should I do? I am learning, and will continue to learn everything I can long after she has whelped. We have her kennel all set up to be as comfortable as possible and my husband is building a whelping box and holding box for the pups for when we clean the whelping box. All pups will have a puppy starter kit, be 12 weeks before they go anywhere, and full registration will only be given if they spay/neuter before they go home.


Ok, first off, it is too late to worry about brucellosis. If the dog or your bitch had it, then he would become sterile, and she would not conceive, or if she did conceive, the pups would abort naturally. It is dog-VD, but it can be transmitted even if your bitch has never been active before. She can get it off the grass. There is no cure. They used to kill the dogs that tested positive, because they can shed the disease and it is highly contagious. Brucellosis was really bad in the south, and when the dogs from Katrina went all over, they brought brucellosis with them, and it is making a comeback in areas where it was practically non-existent before. Again, too late to worry about that now. 

Please do not try to keep all the puppies until they are 12 weeks old. It isn't good for you or the puppies. Oh, if there are two it won't be any big deal and you might be able to socialize two very well. But if there is 7 or 8, no way. Puppies should go home around 8 weeks. It won't hurt for a puppy to stay with the litter for a couple of weeks, but every day that goes by you become more attached, and you are eating up the puppies' socialization period with being in the litter. They have learned what they need from the litter by eight weeks. And trust me on this, it is not easy to take a litter of 7-9 puppies to the vet at 7 weeks, taking them at 11 weeks is much harder as they are way bigger. Aim to home the puppies around 8 weeks of age. The extra month is not a good thing.


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## HopefulParents (Jun 5, 2011)

selzer said:


> Please do not try to keep all the puppies until they are 12 weeks old. It isn't good for you or the puppies. Oh, if there are two it won't be any big deal and you might be able to socialize two very well. But if there is 7 or 8, no way. Puppies should go home around 8 weeks. It won't hurt for a puppy to stay with the litter for a couple of weeks, but every day that goes by you become more attached, and you are eating up the puppies' socialization period with being in the litter. They have learned what they need from the litter by eight weeks. And trust me on this, it is not easy to take a litter of 7-9 puppies to the vet at 7 weeks, taking them at 11 weeks is much harder as they are way bigger. Aim to home the puppies around 8 weeks of age. The extra month is not a good thing.


Thank you for this. I have seen pups go at 5-6 weeks of age because they are 'weaned' so people think they are ready and I know that is bad, but I didn't realize keeping them until 12 weeks was bad. I was hoping that at 12 weeks we would know each puppies temperament, and personality and would be able to place them in a compatible home.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HopefulParents said:


> On this note, how do I go about getting into sports? Do I need a professional trainer? Do I enter her and hope she does well? (somehow that doesn't seem fair) I have looked into it, but all I find are the competitions, nothing on preparing. I want to do it right, but with limited information I don't know where to start.


For the next 9 weeks, don't do anything. Then if she does give birth, let her raise her litter. After her litter is 6+ weeks old start taking her to classes. Find a trainer who shows their own dogs. Find a training club that offers many different venues. 

I have never heard of a vet that specializes in breed. There are so many breeds. I think your vet is ready to retire anyway if he has been doing this for 40 years. Many vets really don't care for breeders, and seeing that you bred a bitch under 18 months old, that will probably prejudice them for now. I would go ahead and wait until you have whelped the litter, but keep your ears open. Listen to what people in your are say about vets, and try to find one that gets a lot of good reviews. Line up a 24 hour clinic in the event that something goes wrong in the whelping process.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

HopefulParents said:


> Thank you for this. I have seen pups go at 5-6 weeks of age because they are 'weaned' so people think they are ready and I know that is bad, but I didn't realize keeping them until 12 weeks was bad. I was hoping that at 12 weeks we would know each puppies temperament, and personality and would be able to place them in a compatible home.


Unless you are working with a good mentor, I think that trying to match the puppies' temperament with the new owners will be about as much bad as good. Find a good friend who is a dog person, and have them come and test the puppies at 7 weeks. You can find a puppy test that is pretty easy to administer (ie, you lift the pup off the ground so many feet, and then list the number next to the response that most closely matches your pup). There are a group of tests, and it will help to identify which pups seem more independent, which are middle of the road, which ones may need a more experienced owner. You and your husband cannot perform the test as the pups are used to you. 

The best owners will not come to you for a pup, because they have litters picked out by pedigree and what they want the dog for. These people would generally be better at picking a suitable dog. Often the best thing to do is to pick the 2-4 pups you think would work with each person, and let them have a choice between them.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Very good advice, Selzer. The forum is also a great place for learning. In the different forums, particularly under Breeders/Breeding, look for threads that have been made a "sticky". These usually contain a lot of great information that have been contributed from a lot of knowledgeable people on the board. Read through discussions on pedigrees, temperaments, working ability, etc. You will find there is A LOT more to breeding and selecting dogs to breed than you realize. Good Luck!


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

HopefulParents said:


> On this note, how do I go about getting into sports? Do I need a professional trainer? Do I enter her and hope she does well? (somehow that doesn't seem fair) I have looked into it, but all I find are the competitions, nothing on preparing. I want to do it right, but with limited information I don't know where to start.


This is exactly why finding a mentor is such a great idea! 

Go to a local dog show and find the GSDs. Ask around; not everybody is nice, and some will just laugh in your face. But eventually you'll find helpful people. IMO, UKC is much 'nicer' in general than AKC.

If you're at a stage with your dog where you 'hope' she'll do well in the ring, you don't have enough experience to pick the right bitches to breed (as we've already discussed). There are plenty of people on here who are super good at teaching, and plenty of pedigree threads where you can learn a ton. This place is awesome for making connections too; wherever you live, chances are there are a few members on here in your general location. Maybe some of them show! It's worth a try.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

HopefulParents said:


> So you are telling me that if you looked at the lineage of your GSD you would not find a single BYB and you could attest to the validity of every breeder that had come into contact of any of their ancestors?


What a bizarre question! OF COURSE you should be able to trace your dog's lineage all the way back without finding a BYB! That is normal and the standard, the way real breeders do things. Any breeder worth their salt understands that is the FIRST thing you do, to get a dog whose lineage you can trace, where every single generation was bred by a valid breeder with a goal in mind. You don't just take any old bitch you find off Craigslist and start breeding, without knowing anything about her background.

You said you want to be a "professional"  breeder and you have to start somewhere. Well, you've done it the wrong way round. 

You do your research FIRST, study study study and LEARN the breed, get a mentor, go to shows and trials and SEE the breed in action, study study study pedigrees and learn more, talk to other folks who have been in the breed a long time, learn what your goals should be, and THEN find yourself a bitch of good breeding and good potential. 

Raise her, do preliminary x-rays around 6-12 months of age, and if she passes that, go on to have her conformation and temperament verified by showing, training, and trialing, get some kind of performance title on her, get her breed surveyed, do all the health testing you can.

And then, if she passes all that with flying colors, THEN you start thinking about breeding. Then comes a whole 'nuther learning experience of choosing the right stud for her--that's where understanding pedigrees comes in. If you have some knowledge and experience with dogs of different bloodlines, you can make an educated guess as to what pedigree would mix well with hers. Then, with the right match and if all goes well, you have a litter of pups with good potential. You then watch them as they grow and mature, see how they turn out. If they turn out great, great! If they turn out to have problems, you may have to scrap the whole breeding experiment and spay your bitch.

You see? It's very complicated (and expensive) to do it the RIGHT way. I know you want to do things the RIGHT way.

I am not sure what you mean when you say you want to be a "professional" breeder. Does that mean you want to make a living doing it? If so, scrap that idea right now. By the time you're done paying for all the things you need to do with your dogs before breeding, vet bills, health tests, training, showing, trialing, etc. you're going to be in the hole. Puppy sales may cover the costs, but more often they do not. Any profit you make on puppies will quickly be swallowed up by more vet bills, more dog-related expenses. If you want to actually make a living breeding dogs, you have to run a HUGE operation, with significant start-up costs, and you will still probably need another source of income to fund it. These types of operations are commonly known as "puppy mills", though there are some large kennels that are more reputable. To run a large-scale, reputable, immaculate facility, you pretty much have to be independently wealthy.

So, in short: don't expect to make a living breeding dogs if you do it the right way.... or even if you do it the wrong way, for that matter.

If you are unwilling, unable, or don't have the wherewithall to do all this work and make all these sacrifices, don't be a "professional" breeder. In fact, if you don't want to go to the trouble of studying, learning, watching, health testing, etc... don't be a breeder at all.


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## iloveshepherds (Jul 10, 2012)

wow, now i see why people get so upset when other people decide to breed...because they dont educate themselves.
even I was shaking my head at these posts...
people.....please educate yourselves first. read read read and read some more.....talk to other breeders.....do it the right way, or dont do it at all.
you give us future breeders a bad rep......LOL. jeesh


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Unfortunately, you have just become another "back yard breeder". You have a papered girl, you found a papered male and are producing a papered litter, although the quality is unknown.
You said you will xray her when she is 2... Here is a scenerio to think about. What happens to this litter when you do xrays at 2 and find out she is severely dysplastic? You have then already produced a litter of possibly dysplastic prone babies... You will ethically have to contact each new owner and tell them of the outcome of the xrays. If you gave a genetic guarantee of no HD, then if the puppies start showing up dysplastic, do you have the money to give back to the owners who return the babies, who are now about 6 months ol or more.. If you don't give a contract, then you are no where close to a "professional" breeder. 
You stated that you wanted to start getting her ready for AKC conformation... Have you had her evaluated by a competent breeder of AKC CHAMPIONS? Is she even breed worthy to get points towards a championship? Most girls have gotten their Championship or at least points towards their Championship before they are bred. You needed to start getting her ready to show almost the day you got her, gaiting, stacking, standing for her examination, etc. Showing is very expensive and more than not, you are lucky to get a ribbon, not the points needed towards a Championship. It will cost you thousands and thousands of dollars to finish an AKC Championship in entries, handlers fees, etc.
Your vet is an idiot. Even is he stated she was "okay" to breed, he should have been aware that you had done no HD xrays and at least suggested that. Prelims can be done and sent to OFA as early as 6 months to get a prelim report, at least then you would have had something stating her hips has passed OFA scruinty at a young age and gone back and 2 years old and had them done again. 
Is the sire of the potential puppies OFA'd? What was his hip rating? Has he been shown and pointed? Obedience titles? Sport titles? What makes him a good breeding quality GSD?
Have you done any testing on your girl? I know you haven't done OFA, how about eye testing? Heart? Temperament? Any type of testing at all?
Maybe you will be lucky and this breeding won't take..... Then you can let your girl grow up, get her evualated by a competent breeder of GSD, get titles, points, and genetic testing done, and then if she is still up to "par" for breeding, then breed her to an outstanding male and get some good puppies.
If this breeding does take, the smartest thing to do is sell the puppies without papers and hope nobody ends up with genetic issues and comes back to you in a year or two asking what you are going to do because their dog has genetic issues.
Just because you live in the middle of nowhere doesn't mean you can't travel to shows, meet people, ask lots of questions, ask to help them at their show kennel and learn learn learn. Just a bit of advice, don't go to a show and say" I have a GSD, I just bred her and want to learn all about puppies before she whelps". You will get a cold shoulder on that comment. The one thing that honest, reputable breeders don't want to hear is" I have a "whatever" breed at home that is just like this one and I want to become a breeder and raise puppies" Be humble and open your ears to advice and knowledge.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

HopefulParents said:


> Thank you for your honest and ungrudging opinion.
> 
> I am sorry I did not wait until she was older. He said she was ready so I went on his advise. He has been a vet for 40 years. I thought he would know best. Brucellosis was never metioned by him. What is it an how do I test. If she has it should I cull the litter? (I had to cull one of the rescue pups because they were blind, deaf and had a deformed leg, so I know I can do it if necessary.) What should I do? I am learning, and will continue to learn everything I can long after she has whelped. We have her kennel all set up to be as comfortable as possible and my husband is building a whelping box and holding box for the pups for when we clean the whelping box. All pups will have a puppy starter kit, be 12 weeks before they go anywhere, and full registration will only be given if they spay/neuter before they go home.


Brucellosis info:

http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/brucellosis_canis.pdf


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## ShoshanaRVT (Dec 28, 2011)

<-----<<< That is what you can end up producing if you have no idea what is in your dog's (or the male's) pedigree. A walking ad for responsible breeding. Try not to get so defensive. You made an error, and everyone here is giving constructive criticism to help you make better decisions for the future. 

I myself am thinking about obtaining my first bitch in about 5 years. To prepare I am going out to local events and shows, and joining a local GSD club where I can talk to breeders who have been working with the breed longer than I've been alive. Through these things I'm making connections; finding other newbs that want to practice sports and learn together, finding excellent trainers and specialty clubs (ie tracking, Schutzhund, ect.) Educate yourself on various contagious diseases, and most importantly genetic diseases that are common and rare in GSDs. If you live in the middle of nowhere you will want to get a fuel-efficient vehicle, you'll be doing a lot of traveling. There's lots of info on this forum for newbies, and don't forget about books!

So how did it go?


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