# Wanted - Breedable Solid Black Female



## Naellik

Hello, 

My husband and I are looking for a solid black female with full breeding rights. We are looking into starting up a kennel and I want to make sure we do it RIGHT (OFA Good hips,elbows, temperament etc). I've talked with another (somewhat) established breeder and she says it's impossible for me to get a female with full breeding rights with out jumping through flaming hoops, let alone a solid black. Am I crazy? Can any of you breeders out there advise??:help:


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## ZAYDA

No offense but it kinda sounds like you woke up this morning and decided you want to breed GERMAN SHEPHERDS.


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## Liesje

You want to do it right but not have to jump through hoops? Why do you want black? What about specific lines, type, temperament? I am not a breeder, but a buyer currently looking for a pup and there needs to be a better reason than just wanting to have a GSD kennel. What experience do you have? Do the people you show/train/trial with have any advice as far as helping you find a dog?


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## Castlemaid

There is a lot more to "doing it right" than OFA/Hips, Elbows, temperament and ect . . ."

Doing it right is having a life-time of experience and knowledge. It is about more than breeding black dogs, but breeding working dogs that have been trained and titled (by yourself) to prove that your dogs can work. It is knowing if you want to breed American Show lines, German Show lines, or working lines, and if working lines, what characteristics in particular do you want to preserve and improve on?

Agree with the other poster. Sounds like you like black German Shepherds (nothing wrong with that), and decided to start up a little kennel to make extra money. 
People who do it right breed for the love of the dog, few make money on it, if they can, more power to them, but that is not their main objective. 

The breeder you talked to is right. Responsible breeders who "do it right", will want their bloodlines and good kennel name preserved and carried on by the progeny of their breedable bitches, and will have a lot of stipulations and conditions for selling breeding prospects. Usually they sell their puppies with limited, and upgrade to full once those conditions are met, most often a minimum of OFA hips/elbows, and some work/performance title like SchH I.


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## LaRen616

There are way too many dogs in the world already. There are not enough homes for all of them. Have you ever been to an animal shelter? Have you ever looked into their eyes knowing that they probably wont make it out of there alive? Have you ever seen a dog on the side of the road because it got hit by a car? Have you ever seen a dog picking through the trash? Some stray dogs add to the population but so do people that wake up one morning and decide they want to start breeding dogs.

Besides owning a GSD why do you want to breed? 
To better the breed? 
To produce top quality dogs? 
Are you looking to breed oversized dogs?


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## LaRen616

Castlemaid said:


> There is a lot more to "doing it right" than OFA/Hips, Elbows, temperament and ect . . ."
> 
> Doing it right is having a life-time of experience and knowledge. It is about more than breeding black dogs, but breeding working dogs that have been trained and titled (by yourself) to prove that your dogs can work. It is knowing if you want to breed American Show lines, German Show lines, or working lines, and if working lines, what characteristics in particular do you want to preserve and improve on?
> 
> Agree with the other poster. Sounds like you like black German Shepherds (nothing wrong with that), and decided to start up a little kennel to make extra money.
> People who do it right breed for the love of the dog, few make money on it, if they can, more power to them, but that is not their main objective.
> 
> The breeder you talked to is right. Responsible breeders who "do it right", will want their bloodlines and good kennel name preserved and carried on by the progeny of their breedable bitches, and will have a lot of stipulations and conditions for selling breeding prospects. Usually they sell their puppies with limited, and upgrade to full once those conditions are met, most often a minimum of OFA hips/elbows, and some work/performance title like SchH I.


 
Here, Here! I agree


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## Minnieski

Maybe it would help if you could post your reasons for becoming a breeder. People may be more receptive to helping you if they know what you're about.


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## JKlatsky

Look. The reality is this. Really quality breeding females are difficult to find because breeders KEEP them. You cannot find a young adult female with all the necessary compenents for being a quality breeding dog, also in one of the more fad colors without taking out a mortgage on your house. We're talking MAJOR money, IF you can even find someone willing to sell the dog. There's usually SOME reason they're selling the dog. Either the puppies are not turning out the way they wanted, the bitch has some kind of issue (think fertility or temperament issues) and they want to sell her quick, or the bitch is old and maybe has 1 litter left? 

If you look at the progression of most reputable hobby breeders they either started with a quality puppy from someone else's breeding program and raised and trained it and hoped it turned out right. OR they spent top dollar and obtained an older female which they got one or two litters from, retained females from those litters and went from there. I have also seen people who have an excellent male, stud it out to a quality female and retain a bitch puppy for a future breeding prospect. 

Most people I know who have gone out and bought adult females with the intent of breeding have gotten screwed. I suggest that you look into developng a relationship with a reputable breeder that is close to you and maybe look into co-owning a bitch to get started under the guidance of that other breeder. It takes years to build a reputable program.


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## BlackPuppy

JKlatsky said:


> I suggest that you look into developng a relationship with a reputable breeder that is close to you and maybe look into co-owning a bitch to get started under the guidance of that other breeder. It takes years to build a reputable program.


Darn! I was going to say that. 

I also want to say, I like black dogs!! Its a bummer in the summer time, but if I got a GSD, it would have to be black and I'd wait as long as it took to find one. But I already have my dogs for the rest of my life.


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## Lin

JKlatsky said:


> I suggest that you look into developng a relationship with a reputable breeder that is close to you and maybe look into co-owning a bitch to get started under the guidance of that other breeder. It takes years to build a reputable program.


Definitely. Breeding is very complicated and takes a lot of knowledge and experience. Your best bet is to find a breeder that is willing to mentor you.


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## tkarsjens

Naellik said:


> I've talked with another (somewhat) established breeder and she says it's impossible for me to get a female with full breeding rights with out jumping through flaming hoops, let alone a solid black.


I'm not really a breeder myself, but I work closely with a good friend of mine when she uses my dogs in her breeding program. She breeds American showlines, so obviously someone with a different type of dog might have a different response. However, she will sell a female with full breeding rights on the condition that it must be shown. She breeds dogs primarily for conformation (no she doesn't ignore health, temperment, etc, but her focus is on the show ring). So she requires someone who is going to breed one of her dogs to do the same thing she does - show the dog.

In my opinion, this is a good policy. If I am passionate about showing in conformation or doing Schutzund or doing obedience or SAR or whatever, and I have put the time into my dogs to train them and show them in these things (or work them in SAR), then I would expect someone who wants to breed one of my pups to put in the same effort.

So if you went to my friend, for example, and tried to buy a female, she would tell you she stays as a co-owner on the dog's papers until you have shown the dog a certain number of times. You might consider this "jumping through hoops" when in fact the breeder is trying to protect their lines.

When you put blood, sweat and tears into something, you don't want someone to come along and reap the benefits without doing any work. You want them to put in the same work you did because it's important to you.

Tracie
www.atlaskennels.com


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## Naellik

Wow, I wasn't expecting to get torn apart....but okay, I guess I haven't given enough information for all of you. Thank you to those that offered some advise. 

I did NOT wake up this morning and decide I wanted to breed GSD's. I've grown up with GSD's, my grandmother was a breeder for the Sheriff's dept and I got my love of the breed from her. I live in the country, have plenty of room, I love the breed and want to make the breed better. I DO NOT want to do this for the sole purpose of making a buck. Besides, there is an awful lot of investment of time & money to even making an attempt. I am looking for advise and guidance. I'll be the first to admit I'm COMPLETELY new at this and want to do it right. Everyone has to start somewhere. As quoted several times, it looks as though the best way to go is co-own and learn.

Solid black is what we would PREFER to have, but not necessary. I prefer working lines. Also I don't believe that this is too much to ask.."stays as a co-owner on the dog's papers until you have shown the dog a certain number of times" I'd probably do the same thing to protect all of my time and effort put into the breed.


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## MaggieRoseLee

Naellik said:


> Wow, I wasn't expecting to get torn apart....but okay, I guess I haven't given enough information for all of you. Thank you to those that offered some advise.
> 
> I did NOT wake up this morning and decide I wanted to breed GSD's. I've grown up with GSD's, my grandmother was a breeder for the Sheriff's dept and I got my love of the breed from her. I live in the country, have plenty of room, I love the breed and want to make the breed better. I DO NOT want to do this for the sole purpose of making a buck. Besides, there is an awful lot of investment of time & money to even making an attempt. I am looking for advise and guidance. I'll be the first to admit I'm COMPLETELY new at this and want to do it right. Everyone has to start somewhere. As quoted several times, it looks as though the best way to go is co-own and learn.
> 
> Solid black is what we would PREFER to have, but not necessary. I prefer working lines. Also I don't believe that this is too much to ask.."stays as a co-owner on the dog's papers until you have shown the dog a certain number of times" I'd probably do the same thing to protect all of my time and effort put into the breed.


Best thing to do is look around at breeders you like that have black dogs in their lines, and start communicating directly with them. That way they can evaluate your background and experience, willingness to co-own (or not), goals of your breeding program (is it in-line with theirs?).

We have quite a few breeder on this site. Many of us with sable or black dogs can point you in their direction if you need more guidance. Then going directly with them will really give you more information.

We all do tend to over react (me too :wild: ) if we've been here for awhile cause we are beat down from all the dogs in the Urgent and Non Urgent section, and people that get puppies from BYB that now have tons of health or temperment issues, so only want more dogs added to the population by 'responsible' breeders. 

So if you DO fit the bill for a responsible breeder then I am behind you all the way!!!! 

Dog Play: Making a Difference: Being a Responsible Dog Breeder

What is a Breeder

Types of Breeders

RESPONSIBLE OR BYB ?


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## Lin

Naellik said:


> Wow, I wasn't expecting to get torn apart....but okay, I guess I haven't given enough information for all of you. Thank you to those that offered some advise.


I'm sorry about that. But remember we are just so passionate about the breed and dogs in general that we don't want to see anything bad happen. Many of us get too emotional and jump too soon. Bad breeders bring dogs that degrade the reputation of the breed, and add to the overpopulation problem. 

It sounds like you have great intentions. Your best bet really is to find a breeder willing to mentor you. This will help you build up a name and reputation before you start breeding. Its also EXTREMELY helpful to have someone you could call at 3 in the morning when you're worried about your dogs labor


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## Liesje

I would hook up with a solid club, get a dog that you can show or work or whatever it is you plan to do, and use that dog to get experience working and training dogs. I've only done a lot of training with two dogs so far and believe me, the dog I would have wanted at the beginning is totally different from the dog I am looking to buy now. Just the process of training and trialing with those two dogs has taught me what it is I look for in my future dogs and what things I will avoid. There's so much variety in the breed, even narrowing it down to black working lines is still very vague.


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## G-burg

> I've talked with another (somewhat) established breeder and she says it's impossible for me to get a female with full breeding rights with out jumping through flaming hoops, let alone a solid black.


Nothings impossible.. 

Most dogs coming from over seas have no restrictions.. So you might want to consider importing a bitch..


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## BlackPuppy

G-burg said:


> Most dogs coming from over seas have no restrictions.. So you might want to consider importing a bitch..


There's a thought. I just imported my Dutch Shepherd from The Netherlands. My only restriction is that I not sell my dog to a K9 company.

To do this try to locate the breeders and start contacting by email. I email in their native language by using Google Translate. If they then want to email in English, I do that, otherwise I stick with German (or whatever). 

After you get a few contacts with breeders, you might want to take a trip and visit them. I find that they are very happy to have you visit, and they are happy to see you are serious and get to know you a little.

http://www.dsh-forum.de/


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## JKlatsky

G-burg said:


> Nothings impossible..
> 
> Most dogs coming from over seas have no restrictions.. So you might want to consider importing a bitch..


True. But this is where you want to be very careful. You need to build importing contacts and it could get pretty expensive to "custom order" a breeding female. 

So far everyone I know who has imported a dog based on websites/advertising (Think Pedigree Database ads) without going through a solid contact has been sold garbage.


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## BlackPuppy

BlackPuppy said:


> There's a thought. I just imported my Dutch Shepherd from The Netherlands. My only restriction is that I not sell my dog to a K9 company.
> 
> To do this try to locate the breeders and start contacting by email. I email in their native language by using Google Translate. If they then want to email in English, I do that, otherwise I stick with German (or whatever).
> 
> After you get a few contacts with breeders, you might want to take a trip and visit them. I find that they are very happy to have you visit, and they are happy to see you are serious and get to know you a little.
> 
> Startseite - Schaeferhund-forum.de


Ooo. I saw some nice looking black puppies on this forum. Under "breeding" and "Schwarzer Schäferhundrüde zu verkaufen "


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## BlackPuppy

JKlatsky said:


> So far everyone I know who has imported a dog based on websites/advertising (Think Pedigree Database ads) without going through a solid contact has been sold garbage.


As I would expect.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Naellik said:


> Wow, I wasn't expecting to get torn apart....but okay, I guess I haven't given enough information for all of you. Thank you to those that offered some advise.
> 
> I did NOT wake up this morning and decide I wanted to breed GSD's. I've grown up with GSD's, my grandmother was a breeder for the Sheriff's dept and I got my love of the breed from her. I live in the country, have plenty of room, I love the breed and want to make the breed better. I DO NOT want to do this for the sole purpose of making a buck. Besides, there is an awful lot of investment of time & money to even making an attempt. I am looking for advise and guidance. I'll be the first to admit I'm COMPLETELY new at this and want to do it right. Everyone has to start somewhere. As quoted several times, it looks as though the best way to go is co-own and learn.
> 
> Solid black is what we would PREFER to have, but not necessary. I prefer working lines. Also I don't believe that this is too much to ask.."stays as a co-owner on the dog's papers until you have shown the dog a certain number of times" I'd probably do the same thing to protect all of my time and effort put into the breed.


I don't know of any working line breeders in CNY, but you could maybe try to hook up with Debbie Zappia in Western NY. 

While you are looking at doing this, getting into working dogs, finding a good club using modern methods, researching lines, (seems like this takes a while to do) you could foster pregnant moms for rescue - rescues like to help when they can but it's hard to find fosters for late pregnancy moms or moms with newborns. http://www.gsrcny.org/ , www.bdbh.org Win-win.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with getting a dog, show it, title it in "something" before jumping into breeding.

While I realize everyone has to start somewhere, unless you know what your doing, it won't be done right. Finding a breeder who can mentor you is a great plus and learning experience.

I have GSD's for my whole life (and am aging myself by saying I'm 50!) and tho I am pretty savvy when it comes to this breed and breeding, I would never consider breeding myself..There is just sooooooo much out there to pick from, why go thru the hassle and alot of times heartache of breeding and worrying about those puppies out there..


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## Emoore

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> you could foster pregnant moms for rescue - rescues like to help when they can but it's hard to find fosters for late pregnancy moms or moms with newborns. Home - German Shepherd Rescue of Central NY (GSRCNY) , www.bdbh.org Win-win.


This is a really really great idea for anyone who's considering breeding.


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## Naellik

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I don't know of any working line breeders in CNY, but you could maybe try to hook up with Debbie Zappia in Western NY.
> 
> Funny you should say that! I've been to Debbie's house for a trial a couple years ago. She's a member of the Empire Working Dog club (I think, @ leasts they train @ her house). I've gone to a couple of their local training sessions (near me, not @ Debbie's house) One of the members I'm pretty good friends with let me tag along with Zack. He so doesn't have what it takes! Waaay too much of a pansy! He's my gentle giant!!! :wub:
> 
> Thank you to everyone. I would want to title her and obviously get her OFA certified before she is even considered being bred. Otherwise how would the buyer know they are getting a good pup? Most importantly it wouldn't be doing a service to the breed if I just bred her w/out her proving her pups are going to better the breed. Any "schlub" could breed just for S's & G's. That's NOT what I'm in it for. I'm young (30), eager and willing to put in the time, money and effort. I just need a good mentor...Any of you near or in Central NYS or don't mind a long distance relationship?
> 
> (Oh and sorry I screwed up the quote thing...)


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## Mrs.K

BlackPuppy said:


> There's a thought. I just imported my Dutch Shepherd from The Netherlands. My only restriction is that I not sell my dog to a K9 company.
> 
> To do this try to locate the breeders and start contacting by email. I email in their native language by using Google Translate. If they then want to email in English, I do that, otherwise I stick with German (or whatever).
> 
> After you get a few contacts with breeders, you might want to take a trip and visit them. I find that they are very happy to have you visit, and they are happy to see you are serious and get to know you a little.
> 
> Startseite - Schaeferhund-forum.de


Yikes.... that's one of the most ridiculous forums EVER!!! You know how many people just left that forum lately because posts and topics and members get deleted just because they don't like you or think you are a threat?

There are better forums out there to find a GSD 

This is a forum for working lines
Startseite - Das Leistungshundeforum von schaeferhund.net

This is another forum for working line dogs of all kinds. It's austrian but has plenty of people from Germany, Austria, Switzerland... pretty much from all over the place
Gebrauchshundeforum für Gebrauchs und Sporthunde - CMS-Startseite

This is another german board with pretty good people. It's one of my favorite forums. It's small but with people that have a welth of knowledge. 
Schäferhund24 - Powered by vBulletin


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## Lin

Mrs K, sometimes you can be a little harsh. I've noticed it in your posts occasionally. I don't think its intentional; maybe a second language issue?  But just pointing it out in case its something you'd like to work on. Your first paragraph there sounds a bit harsh towards BlackPuppy. But maybe its just me and other people haven't seen that! It can be so hard to get tone across in writing.


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## holland

lol...I really hope those forums are in a second language last thing I need to read is another forum...its like being stuck in line at the grocery store and reading the tabloids headlines...could be worse actually


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## onyx'girl

Lin said:


> Mrs K, sometimes you can be a little harsh. I've noticed it in your posts occasionally. I don't think its intentional; maybe a second language issue?  But just pointing it out in case its something you'd like to work on. Your first paragraph there sounds a bit harsh towards BlackPuppy. But maybe its just me and other people haven't seen that! It can be so hard to get tone across in writing.


Lin, Have you talked with a German in person? From my experience, they don't mince words! And the tone is nothing like what you get from say....a southern belle!
Nothing against you Mrs. K, just thinking of some I know from Germany.


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## sagelfn

onyx'girl said:


> Lin, Have you talked with a German in person? From my experience, they don't mince words! And the tone is nothing like what you get from say....a southern belle!
> Nothing against you Mrs. K, just thinking of some I know from Germany.


lol my aunt is from Germany (met my uncle when he was stationed there) Mrs. K reminds me a lot of her - I mean this in a good way


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## wolfstraum

Finding a titled black young female is not impossible - if you will import and take your chances that she is breedable - many young females who are for sale have problems - repro, training or whatever....and some may just be for sale for no bad reason....you never know....I imported two females - one was not easy to breed, the other was absolutely wonderful - had some training issues - but they were fixed........I also bred a litter from a Schh3 female I had titled from a puppy, an older female I bought in whelp to an untitled male (1 dog from that litter 6x Sch3) and my last litter was from my own C litter home bred HOT female....

You have to make contacts, and find trustworthy people - I found one each way when I imported....you always take chances importing....

I agree that it takes a long time to learn - and in the US we are very very handicapped by the lack of real knowledge, the kennel blindness of many owners - whether they breed or not - and the fact that truly serious breeders are far far far outnumbered by the commercial puppy producers who push out litter after litter after litter using what ever they can get their hands on - good or mediocre - just to produce income....it is very very hard to learn what is truly a good litter, and what is produced with income as the 1st priority.

Lee


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## NarysDad

I agree with Lee. Make contacts and find breeders you maybe able to trust, but finding a titled female sometimes is not the dog that ends up what you are looking for. Good Luck


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## selzer

Yes, everyone does have to start somewhere. 

If your Grandmother bred shepherds for the sherriff's department, then you should be familiar with some of her contacts. People do not have a breeding program in a vaccume. I do not know whether your grandmother is still breeding or even still around, but I would think that the place to start might be with some of the people that she worked with. 

Here's the thing, you can get a bitch imported or domestic, but either way, it is a gamble. The better breeders with the better dogs are not going to pass a decent breeding prospect on to a newbie, even cash in hand. Becoming a good breeder does not happen overnight. And it does not happen in a vaccume. 

I think internet sites are a tool, but what you need are real people. Join a shepherd club. Get involved. Get known. Narrow down your search on the important stuff and widen your search on the superficial. Color SHOULD be your last concern, but there ARE enough dogs out there, that you should be able to find what you want in your color choice. I think that maybe it would be wise to hold off on your black bitch until you are better known and people can see what you are producing and that you are putting your money where your mouth is. Then you might be able to get a more specialized breeder to take a chance on you. 

It is not enough to love the breed. You have to be committed to the breed. This means a lot of things. But one thing is training. If you get a starter dog, and train him in a couple of different venues, that experience will be invaluable when you go to begin breeding. You will see dogs you like, dogs you dislike, you will begin to see what is carried in what lines. You will begin to see what characteristics in a dog makes them a good home for the characteristics of the potential owners. 

If you want to do this right, then take the advice here and spend a couple of years networking with people and training and trialing a dog. It will get you much farther than shelling out cash for the first black bitch with "full breeding rights." Uh, we usually refer to this as full registration as opposed to a limited registration.


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