# How to reward a SAR dog



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So we've all heard the prejudices about Schutzhund Dogs and that they are not good for Search and Rescue. Now I've read that playing tug with a dog leads to prey aggression, dominance and to a dog that puts pressure on the helper to get what he wants. And it doesn't matter if you use a tug or a rope or a ball to play tug with the dog. It's potentially dangerous and wouldn't teach the dog anything at all. 

I strongly disagree. Isn't that what we want? A driven dog that we can reward with a ball? Isn't it what we want that a dog is actually lookin forward to the reward to get them what we want them to do on a positive basis until the search itself becomes a reward? Isn't that kind of desire needed?

And what else would we use as a reward? Our voice? Food? And would that really be a powerful reward to keep the dog wantin to work for us? That may work with some breeds but don't we have to keep it fun? 

Since I'm here I've noticed that especially food dogs (in SAR) are frowned upon because the reward is just not powerful enough and if the dogs lack prey drive they ultimately may lack hunt drive as well. 

I come to the conclusion that there is a huge difference between the cultures of how you train a SAR dog and the kind of rewards that are being used. 

Thoughts?


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I've never heard of that explaination as to why food rewards aren't good. It's always been explained to me that it does not create enough 'subject loyalty' because ultimately there is very little interaction.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I've heard that food just doesn't create an intense enough positive association to create/build/sustain strong search drive in any sort of extended searching (wilderness, HRD, drugs) -- although for the little customs beagles, I guess it works well enough (but I think that's how they get every meal--through searching).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

That is what I think too. That food is just not powerfull enough as a reward. Now beagles or bloodhounds may actually be different but I think that a ball or a rope, for a prey driven dog, is much more powerful than any food. Food has it's place though.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Sandra I think you are making broad generalizations based on interactions with a very limted number of SAR folks on the internet and I presume in the real world. 

Maybe you should just train, certify, and deploy a dog and not worry too much about these things first. Also do not put so much faith in one or two people. For every SAR guru out there I can find you 15 people telling you what is wrong with them. 

You need to take what you can from your mentors and come to your own conclusions based on real life experience. 

In terms of those who argue against bite trained dogs; *I have never heard anyone same say a tug or ball play is inappropriate...that is what most people want...that is what most teams push for during selection testing.*.

What I have heard (cocerning bitework) is the concern that a dog will revert to its first trained behavior. That dog is out of your visual range when it finds that person and if they run from it or swing at it unless you can tell me 100% that that dog will not take off after and bite the victim I do not want to take the risk. The other is an insurance clause. You are doing ringsport with your own dog which will put the behavior in even less of a stylilized formulatic approach than schutzhund. For someone who rolls their eyes and goes "not again" when something is rehashed why do it again? This argument is constantly rehashed in the SAR community and there is a very small representation of that community on this forum.

Concerning food. Not my cup of tea However, I have seen some very food motivated dogs who have made several real world finds. I have been doing SAR since 1999 and am still of the opinion there is much more to learn and am not in a position to judge everyone else. Should we tell those people to dump their family members back in the woods because the K9 find was invalid because it was a food driven dog? Most of the food driven dogs I have seen succeed seemed to be best at trailing. JMO. That is just what I have seen. I think some dogs just like the hunt.

Either way, why not just choose the ball/toy driven dog for yourself and keep your eyes open and be objective to what you see and give yourself some years to come to a conlusion..


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> *I have never heard anyone same say a tug or ball play is inappropriate...that is what most people want...that is what most teams push for during selection testing.*.


That is what I thought too, however it was a german custom officer that said that they abandoned the tugwork a long time ago because you can't train dogs with tugs at all and it would only create problems down the road. 

I am reading, not arguing and I thought it would make a great discussion on here. 


> Ein Zerrspiel ist für mich ein Kampfspiel.
> 
> Beutespiel führt bekanntlich zu beutemotivierten Aggression, Bedrängung, Dominanz stärkend um nur einiges zu nennen.


That's the definition. Playing Tug is a "Fight game". 
Prey games leads, knowingly, to prey motivated aggression, pressure and builds dominance, just to name a few. 

I already came to a conclusion because building a SAR dog is not that different from building a Schutzhund. I certainly don't know it all but a reward is a reward, whether it is in obedience or SAR or the Jackpot in Tracking an it has got to be powerful.
The dogs have to work, you have to build the drive and building the drive, whether for Schutzhund or for SAR is pretty much the same. Training the dog is the least of the problems. Learning how the wind works, how scent pools work, where you find them and how to recognize them that's something no one ever really talks about.

As for Mentors, I do have my Mentors and listen to them but that doesn't mean that I am not reading magazines, lectures, books or other open sources.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

select the dog that has the strongest most durable search drive and the reward will be the hunting and searching itself.

genetic obedience.

no herder will determine the instinctive need to keep sheep under control by playing ball , denying the ball play until the dog herds , and then rewarding with ball play.

herding instinct dogs will demonstrate a controlling bossiness for order and a draw to sheep from the time they are babies .

dogs used as messenger dogs going many miles fulfill the same requirements.

conversations with a Swedish military k9 handler, friend of mine, revealed an exercise where the dog was tested by needing to do messenger , reconnaissance. The dog would be accustomed to working with a pair . One member would go forward with the dog . The dog was sent back to "camp base" , back track , and find the other member of the team who surely had not been sitting there in one spot for the day or two. The message was delivered. A response, acknowledgement written and the dog sent away again to deliver to the other member who has now departed from the spot.

the dog needs to go back to the area , and from there pick up the trail and find the handler.

all this was done going through farm fields with livestock, being bribed by goodies , and even open gunfire , mock military training .

the dogs were timed . 

people really need to get back to the sensibility that was around when dogs were truly partners in work , before the operant conditioning , Pavlov, Skinner etc etc.

I was surprised by the french ring thing too. More so that bite work came so early in the game . French ring is much much more than changing a bite from sleeve to leg . 

Carmen


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

[
Mrs K said---
I already came to a conclusion because building a SAR dog is not that different from building a Schutzhund. 


It sure is . Maybe not in the day when schutzhund type training was a civilian duty so that dogs were on hand for military use . NOW, definitely not . SAR tracking , trailing and schutzhund trialing tracking are not even in the same category.

SAR allows the dogs to make errors , part of the thinking and finding . Schutzhund demands a very formal format , correcting the dog to keep true to the foot print although the scent is deposited yards away.

Carmen


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> select the dog that has the strongest most durable search drive and the reward will be the hunting and searching itself.


I believe that that is the one thing that pretty much everybody is striving for. That if it isn't the reward itself in the beginning that it becomes the reward later down the road. 



> I was surprised by the french ring thing too. More so that bite work came so early in the game . French ring is much much more than changing a bite from sleeve to leg .


It's the very beginning and we've only been there a couple of times. We want to get a little more into it possibly even achieve a title.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you miss the point , it is the reward right from the beginning. 

once again you miss my point -- you are at the very beginning , you have been there a couple of times and you are already doing bite work.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> [
> Mrs K said---
> I already came to a conclusion because building a SAR dog is not that different from building a Schutzhund.
> 
> ...


Carmen, I think I should have clarified. I am talking about building drive, using rewards and when the dog knows how to work it is a lot easier to train a dog for something else. A trained Schutzhund dog already knows how to work and if you have a general understanding of how to work a dog, training a SAR dog isn't all that hard either because you know what to do to get the dog to work for you. However, I do have troubles to rethink from tracking into air scent but working the dog itself, is really not that much different. That is why so many Schutzhund people are very successful at doing RH and that also includes area search. Does that make sense?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> you miss the point , it is the reward right from the beginning.
> 
> once again you miss my point -- you are at the very beginning , you have been there a couple of times and you are already doing bite work.


Carmen, that is something you find and pretty much every club nowadays. 

Even in Germany. You take your dog to the club and the first thing they test is the bitework. Not the Obedience but how the dog does with the sleeve...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

but how does the dog do with the demands and stimulation that sit outside of the bite 

I did french ring and briefly mondio when the ring club folded due to health issues of the training director.

long before the dog saw a bite the dog had to go through the barage , take direction , work and work and work -- get frustrated (NO bite) and show clarity , show stability , recovery etc 

Carmen


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When you say the schutzhund people are very succesfull at area search on what scale? Are we talking 2-3 acres in a directed search or 80-140 acres in a free search with the dog casting about a person following a search pattern?

That is an honest question not a challenge; I don't know anybody whose dog does bitework who searches with them. I do know people who do shtuzhund and even ring but not with their SAR dogs. I know they are out there. I know some of them but have just not trained with them.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

With all due respect folks. Dogs are self serving. They work for a reward.period. If the find was enough, we would not search the world over for dogs with ball drive. That kind of thing works great in the backyard with no pressure but not in the real world. Not enough for searching many acres in awful heat and going through thick brush. Just does not cut it. Nor does food. If the dog is tired, sore, not hungry, dog shuts down. ATF makes it work by food depravation. Dog ONLY eats when a training scenario is set up. no other time. Still has drawbacks,because again, if the dog is not hungry, dog wont hunt. Just that simple. If those methods worked with any consistency, police and military would use them. We dont.
My SAR dog is rewarded with a ball. Tugging can create some issues. Depends on the dog.

My IRO certified SAR dog is also SVV1. He is a prey dog and not trained in defense. The only concern I have with him is that he licks the face off of the victim until they can no longer act unconscious because they are laughing. AS with all things,it depends on the dog. 
Find a dog with ball/retrieve drive just as I used for scent detection work.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> When you say the schutzhund people are very succesfull at area search on what scale? Are we talking 2-3 acres in a directed search or 80-140 acres in a free search with the dog casting about a person following a search pattern?


Eyra v. Wildhaus is one...thought I'd mention that name since it's one we all know. She's got an SchH2 and is now a wilderness and water SAR dog.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

ladylaw203 said:


> With all due respect folks. Dogs are self serving. They work for a reward.period. If the find was enough, we would not search the world over for dogs with ball drive. That kind of thing works great in the backyard with no pressure but not in the real world. Not enough for searching many acres in awful heat and going through thick brush. Just does not cut it. Nor does food. If the dog is tired, sore, not hungry, dog shuts down. ATF makes it work by food depravation. Dog ONLY eats when a training scenario is set up. no other time. Still has drawbacks,because again, if the dog is not hungry, dog wont hunt. Just that simple. If those methods worked with any consistency, police and military would use them. We dont.
> My SAR dog is rewarded with a ball. Tugging can create some issues. Depends on the dog.
> 
> My IRO certified SAR dog is also SVV1. He is a prey dog and not trained in defense. The only concern I have with him is that he licks the face off of the victim until they can no longer act unconscious because they are laughing. AS with all things,it depends on the dog.
> Find a dog with ball/retrieve drive just as I used for scent detection work.


Exactly my thoughts too.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would personally make the same call but I have seen some really good food driven dogs with a number of finds under their belts and some good searchers to not completely discount that. Dogs who would eat until they hurt themselves if allowed. Dogs who will, in fact, search for hours.

Our own team screenings are requiring a ball driven dog. Like anything I strongly believe the probably of finding the right dog in a ball driven dog is correct but believe their are exceptions to the rule. And I am still leaning strongly towards a dog with genetic obedience as part of its make-up.

I do agree that often a dog with high food drive is a dog with no drive, but not always. My little female was over the top in prey and over the top in food but, given the choice for a reward system, food won hands down with her. I put her food in a tug toy like elite k9 sells, played with it, and tore it open and fed her afterwards. I think it is something Resi Gerritson recommended.

----

I know there are schutzhund dogs out there searching...I guess my question was is it all directed search or free search with directionals given when the handler wants the dog to focus on a given area.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> I would personally make the same call but I have seen some really good food driven dogs with a number of finds under their belts and some good searchers to not completely discount that. Dogs who would eat until they hurt themselves if allowed. Dogs who will, in fact, search for hours.
> 
> Our own team screenings are requiring a ball driven dog. Like anything I strongly believe the probably of finding the right dog in a ball driven dog is correct but believe their are exceptions to the rule. And I am still leaning strongly towards a dog with genetic obedience as part of its make-up.
> 
> ...


Directionals are actually a requirement within the RH System. Meaning the dog has to be capable off to search in a free area and do directionals when given. If I am not mistaken. 

And I do believe that there are food driven dogs out there that do well with dogs. There are always exceptions to the rules. 




> I put her food in a tug toy like elite k9 sells, played with it, and tore it open and fed her afterwards.


in german we call that "Futter Dummy" (food dummy)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

my selection process looks for and tests for hunt and search primary -- and then we look at ball drive

there are lots of dogs in the park playing ball that would not track or crash through shubbery 

yes my dogs have very strong ball and play drive , 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> I know there are schutzhund dogs out there searching...I guess my question was is it all directed search or free search with directionals given when the handler wants the dog to focus on a given area.


 
I am not following you as far as what you are getting at exactly. What does sport have to do with the searching?

I stand by my opinion on food. I have had dogs that would eat rocks if I let them. HOWEVER, IF the dog is sore, tired, stressed, etc and not hungry, the dog will not search like a dog with retrieve/hunt drive. Food just does not hold up over the long term. That is why we do not use it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Since we do not do rubble we test dogs with heavy brush and kudzu patches. They better want the ball enough to plow on through it

Directionals are necessary for any working search dog - I guess I am wondering that I do know some folks who are steering the dog through an entire search area that way. I tend to use them when I want the dog to check a specific area -usually for me bridge underpasses, culverts, under houses, etc.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Renee, I think my comment was on a post that was edited maybe while I was writing it about schutzhund dogs being specifically sucesful in area search and I wanted to know "in what way".....does the shutzhund handler give directional commands for the entire search or is the dog free-searching wiht the handler directing them for gap coverage?\

Right now I am still trusting my own eyes on food in the construct of some dogs, some types..some circumstances. Our current screening is focusing first on hunt then on ball. 

What problems do you see with tug as a reward? Right now I am not throwing balls in woods anymore. Not after the $1000 dental bill for all the upper incisors being knocked out. But he is happy just to get and hold the ball (on a string)(and I usually tug on the way back and toss it in the clear)


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## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

jocoyn said:


> I know there are schutzhund dogs out there searching...I guess my question was is it all directed search or free search with directionals given when the handler wants the dog to focus on a given area.


In my case with Eyra - all free search until I need to to focus on a specific area. 

We work directionals as part of our training on a regular basis.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

DinoBlue said:


> In my case with Eyra - all free search until I need to to focus on a specific area.
> 
> We work directionals as part of our training on a regular basis.


Thanks you got my question. It was that simple. I knew some folks who basically "steered" their dog the entire time and I was not fond of that. Certainly I use directionals as well.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

carmspack said:


> my selection process looks for and tests for hunt and search primary -- and then we look at ball drive
> 
> there are lots of dogs in the park playing ball that would not track or crash through shubbery
> 
> ...


I do believe that everybody on here can agree on that. Hunt Drive is just as important as the prey drive.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Since we do not do rubble we test dogs with heavy brush and kudzu patches. They better want the ball enough to plow on through it
> 
> Directionals are necessary for any working search dog - I guess I am wondering that I do know some folks who are steering the dog through an entire search area that way. I tend to use them when I want the dog to check a specific area -usually for me bridge underpasses, culverts, under houses, etc.


Just to for clarification, are we talking about the same thing with directionals? You make a wide gesture with your arm and open palm and send you dog into a certain direction. 

What do you mean by steering?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> Just to for clarification, are we talking about the same thing with directionals? You make a wide gesture with your arm and open palm and send you dog into a certain direction.
> 
> What do you mean by steering?


In that instance every place the dog went was directed by the handler. The dog was constantly directed where to go. It was unnerving. The dog was not given any freedom to hunt. That is what I meant by the dog beeing steered. The dog was forced into a constrained sweep pattern in front of handler and not allowed to search naturally. 

I got my answer from Dino Blue -- she does what I do.

I still sweep or point when I want the dog to check a particular area. Part of my job is to get my dog in places he has missed or places where I know he is likely to locate scent if it is present. To me that is a directional --


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

In that instance every place the dog went was directed by the handler. The dog was constantly directed where to go. It was unnerving. The dog was not given any freedom to hunt. That is what I meant by the dog beeing steered. The dog was forced into a constrained sweep pattern in front of handler and not allowed to search naturally. 



I understand what you are talking about now. That is a handler dependent dog that may well not work odor to source when he catches it without the handler direction. Bad deal.

Dogs should be trained to work odor when they catch it on their own to source. A dog who only works by being directed is rather worthless...


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I've been looking into the RH rules again. It's quite different from our FedSar rules. 

RH 1 Stufe A
The dog has to be able to track, it has to do an agility/obstacle course as well as obedience. You have to wear full gear, ask certain questions about the subject, the search field is 5000-8000 square meters. The handler possibly has to perform first aid. 

Now that is the very basic test as far as I know. If you do the Sport, I guess food is a way to train a dog. 

I actually sent a message to the costume officer asking what he's using and why he's against a ball or a rope. He said that he's training via voice and food and that he just doesn't need a dog that is pestering the victim about a ball. 

We have six hours for the 100 Acres test. I doubt, that after six hours (including breaks) the dog is pestering the victim for a ball.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

After 6 hours with breaks my 8 year old is still pretty insistent on his ball.

But that is a silly reason about the ball. I did quit letting my dog play with plastic water bottles after I was looking at a map and he backed a flanker up to a tree trying to get the bottle (he was taking a drink). I thought this burly fireman was going to wet himself. So I figured I did not need that. As is he threw the bottle at my dog and hit him on the head he was so scared. Things that to us are not intimidating......prolly a good thing now with shake-n-bake  No platic bottles for my guy.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, I haven't worked her for six hours yet. It's a lot of stress, not only physically but also mentally, on the dog. And the question is, what do we consider pestering? Nudging the victim with the nose? 

Yeah, they do want their ball but I am pretty sure that most victims (except for the confused ones) are happy to see a dog with a SAR blanket on their back. I know, I would and I could care less if the dog is nudging with the nose, or sniffing at me.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Some dogs can be pretty agressive - a lot of folks do bark and hold and for an average person that is very scary. For a toy dog I thinking making the dog get the handler to the victim before play is the key to that. No handler no toy. 

A lot of victims ARE confused. Very confused. More and more of our calls are autistic children and dementia patients followed by despondents. A lot are evasive. A lot are scared of dogs. We get very few hikers and hunters.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> Some dogs can be pretty agressive - a lot of folks do bark and hold and for an average person that is very scary. For a toy dog I thinking making the dog get the handler to the victim before play is the key to that. No handler no toy.
> 
> A lot of victims ARE confused. Very confused. More and more of our calls are autistic children and dementia patients followed by despondents. A lot are evasive. A lot are scared of dogs. We get very few hikers and hunters.


What I wonder, if you can teach a dog to lay down and wait until you release them for the food you should be able to teach a dog to get back to the helper, sit down and wait until the handler comes to release the dog and THEN they get the toy. Problem solved! Or not? 

I understand that the bark and hold is scary for pretty much any person, however isn't the bark and hold sort of counterproductive in most regions when the dog is so far out that you can't even hear them? I know that, that is mainly the reason why we do the re-find. Plus, even if you get a lot of confused people at one point, even if it is only once ever two years, you get that lost hiker and then the re-find, is the better choice, I believe. At least in terrain like here in NY. 

Do you know the livesafer project? Where kids and old people get a wristband with a GPS tracker? Our team is actually doing it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think it is a lot of obedience at the end of a search. I think the recall refind and not rewarding the dog until they get the handler there is enough. Sometimes that dog may have made 4 or 5 roundtrips between the handler and the victim.

We do not like the bark and hold for many reasons. Some of the SUSAR teams do it because they cross train in disaster where bark indication is required and makes sense there.

Yes I have heard of that and it is a good program. Unfortunately many people are in denial about their kids and parents. Most of our dementia missing folks are either living alone in their own home and have had an escalating pattern of behavior or are in very low end "homes" that are not equipped to care for them. South Carolina is a poor state and it gets real bad in the poor counties. We have on our to do list to interface with the alzheimers association and one of our team members works with dogs for autism so hopefully we will build some bridges. In Raleigh the team there worked with nursing homes to create sand rivers (track traps) around each of the homes to help focus a search from the beginning.


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## dog27 (Apr 8, 2007)

Mrs.K said:


> Do you know the livesafer project? Where kids and old people get a wristband with a GPS tracker? Our team is actually doing it.


We have been doing project lifesaver. The wristband is not a GPS tracker though, it is a radio transmitter. A receiver with a directional antenna is used to locate the signal.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

dog27 said:


> We have been doing project lifesaver. The wristband is not a GPS tracker though, it is a radio transmitter. A receiver with a directional antenna is used to locate the signal.


Ah, okay. I must have misunderstood then. I thought it's a gps tracker. But good to know. Thanks 
One of my teammates is certified to do it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Probably even better than GPS. And it would be cheaper! Most of our dementia patients have been found within 1/4 mile of home but in some really really really strange places. Also sometimes are trying to evade the searchers.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

I heard a story where they deployed an entire teams, were searching for almost two days and nobody checked the closet and that is exactly where the elderly person was found.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

to each his own I guess. My is trained with a ball as a reward. He does not pester the victim. He is barking his butt off until I get there. I reward my dog. not the victim


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

ladylaw203 said:


> to each his own I guess. My is trained with a ball as a reward. He does not pester the victim. He is barking his butt off until I get there. I reward my dog. not the victim


Exactly. The dog will do what he was trained to do, to get his reward. If you teach the dog to pester the "found person" for the ball, he'll do that very well. If you teach a sit, bark, down or stand on one ear, if the reward is driving the behavior, the dog will do that behavior until it receives the reward.

DFrost


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Finding someone in their own home or close to their home can be harder than someone out in the woods. Huge scent pool for the dog to work out. Tracks might be everywhere in the vicinity of the home. Then they go places that don't make any sense at all.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> to each his own I guess. My is trained with a ball as a reward. He does not pester the victim. He is barking his butt off until I get there. I reward my dog. not the victim


My things with B&H are mainly [1] it is hard to pinpoint the source in hilly or mountainous terrain [2] The frail nature/fear factor for most of our - not so much with the dog being pushy about getting the toy; it is very intimidating to someone who has grown up being scared of dogs all their life, particualarly pointy eared dogs. [3] Properly trained, the recall/refind works.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Well, at the end of the day, scared or not they are found. I dont want my dog to leave the victim. Just me. I dont do refind for that purpose. 
Everyone has to do their own thing. My dog is not going to be out of my sight either. Refind is just not necessary when I do not lose sight of my dog. Same with my HRD dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

No argument there.....we also have very different terrain ........


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

jocoyn said:


> No argument there.....we also have very different terrain ........


 
Yes I will swap you swamps, Big Thicket forrest, alligators and wild hogs for some hills and rocks. I miss rocks....... I used to climb..........


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

ladylaw203 said:


> Yes I will swap you swamps, Big Thicket forrest, alligators and wild hogs for some hills and rocks. I miss rocks....... I used to climb..........


We have that in our state and I HATE those callouts there. HATE them. Up to armipits in blackwater when the ground disappears, gators, pigs - no you can KEEP that nonsense.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

ah yes...blackwater. I still miss hills and rocks..........lol


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

and here I was contemplating getting into SAR,,methinks my dog would be saving my butt before I could get her to save someone else,,especially that blackwater stuff ! 

You girlz are braver than I


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Renee gets to wrangle with all that nasty stuff every day. I will take my kudzu and the ocassional black bear, snakes, hunters, and loose dogs over that any day.

FWIW a phone will usually survive a dunk in a stream but not in that swamp nonsese. I don't even go on a search anymore that my phone is not in a double zipper ziplock. It seems to attract water.


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

Just read through this interesting thread...As for rewards I have always been on the side of stick reward and fetch/tug as you don't have to carry a toy with you and are generally EVERYWHERE when working a wilderness search. I am not sure about anyone else but the least amount of external gear I have to carry and the least weight the better. I try and minimize my pack as much as possible as it already is around 35-40lbs (6.5lbs of that being water...). An extra 1-2lbs for reward makes a difference depending on terrain and length of search. Also, I have always hated having a reward external for the dog that can get caught on branches, bushes and other random foliage.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I do not like sticks because

I have seen numerous serious stick injuries requiring emergency vet treatment - and -
It encourges self rewarding


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## mroutdoorsman (Oct 4, 2010)

The group I first started with was very toy and food motivation oriented in their training and then after working with some other groups here in WA that is when the stick reward started working really well. Ze'eva LOVES sticks and will only chase after them or play with them if it is initiated by myself or someone else. She has yet to self reward herself... As far as injuries what have you seen?


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Palate punctures - dog chases stick and lands on it wrong and it impales the roof of the mouth. I have seen 5 of these serious enough to require vet care and anything going up into the palate is not good with the brain and nasal cavity being there. To me that is enough that it is not just a freak accident. 

I have seen dogs self-reward but that usually is when the handler is ignoring signals by the dog or the dog has exceeded its nose time and is confused. So I will agree it is part of another training issue.


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I would not use a real stick. can cause injuries. use the Kong stick or something. If you are using something indigineous to the search environment the dog could at times, grab a stick instead of exhibiting the final trained response. Shortcut the process. depends on the dog.
I have seen this with cops that use empty plastic water bottles.

any dog with the proper drive will attempt to self reward if the handler is standing there like DUH. regardless of the reward


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Anymore I am scared of plastic bottles because they are using them for cooking meth not to mention what drunks use them for....plus Grim once backed a flanker up to a tree demanding his "toy" ... guy was squeezing it and making that crackling noise while he was drinking. (I had my nose in the maps because my assigned "navigator" apparently could NOT read a map)


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## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I dont like the bottles because of those reasons. Also,again, anything used as a reward that is found laying around in the search environment can cause issues....


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Who uses one specific reward versus mixing it up? h2o bottle is an interesting idea if you are short on weight. I tend tochange rewards all the time. So if I ever went back country and weight is really an issue that seems like a nice backup. Although I wouldthink that 35lbs of gear isn't really necessary most of the time. Plus I would not want to mess around with there not being a reward. I would much rather carry 1 extra pound of reward than rely on one in the environment. You never know when a"wildness" search might move into town. If you are really out thee that long to need that much equipment your pack weight will be decreasing anyway as you drink and eat.


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