# I'm now curious....



## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

The current litter listed on the breeder's site has the same parents as mine. I am now wondering what kind of line he comes from since my thread about the breeder's offer. I am leaning towards not breeding him since there seems to be some background stuff I wasn't aware of? My sister is the one that picked Baron so I wasn't involved at first. 

Can anyone tell me anything from looking at the Sire and Dam? Of course won't change my love for Baron will just help aid in my decision. 

Dogs and Pups for sale


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## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

Dam
Dutchess Vom Jagermeister pedigree information - German shepherd dog

Sire
Ewo Von Heksterhorst pedigree information - German shepherd dog

I know I found out a little bit about the dad in the other thread. Now I'm wondering if there is more to learn from both.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I am not a pedigree expert by any means, and relatively new to German Shepherds myself, but I can tell you that Baron's pedigree looks amazing!!! Very strong dogs throughout who have made a name for themselves. Good kennel names known for producing serious dogs. All (or mostly?) West German working lines. 

Asko Von Lutter, in the third generation back on the sire side, is something of a legend. he was also known for being handler aggressive. Now there is some debate as to there is such a thing as dogs with innate handler aggression, or if it is something created by the handler, but from experience with an Asko grand-son, I have experienced this in a still quite young dog. I don't know how much influence Asko would have on the fourth generation (Baron), but in either way, with such a pedigree, you have the potential of having a pretty strong pup on your hands! 

There are breeders/trainers on this board that may have personal experience and insight on how what this pedigree has the potential to produce - hopefully some will chime in and give more accurate info.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Asko Von Lutter, in the third generation back on the sire side, is something of a legend. he was also known for being handler aggressive.


This is the first time I have heard that said about Asko Lutter. I know of a number of dogs known for that but his name has not come up . Still, there are dogs with Asko in the pedigree as the result of a breeding that maybe wasn't the best idea a breeder came up with.
I see many pedigrees now that are simply loaded with sharp, aggressive and somewhat sensitive dogs. That is when you can have some problems but that seems to be what people are aiming to get now. When you have sharpness, you need to always look for lines known for nerves. I am not so sure there are tons of breeders who know what those lines are but I also know, lines known to produce that are getting harder and harder to find.


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## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

I have no idea what is good or bad now. 

Looks like I will be digging papers out and doing some reasearch this weekend.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

That is a very good pedigree. Based on pedigree alone, your dog would be very breedworthy. It is the kind of pedigree people looking for a dog for high-level Schtuzhund competition (think World level), or a hard-as-nails patrol police dog would want. But Bison is an individual, and he may have inherited - or not - any myriad of traits from his ancestors, or some very unique traits that will make him unique, and maybe better suited to a life with you, instead of a working K9. He sounds like a nice dog, except for the peeing, he doesn't seem to be any behaviour issues, so I'm thinking he is a good match for you - sounds like he felt that way too!

But of course, breedworthiness is not based on pedigree alone, the dog himself has to show that he is something special, and then you need to show the GSD world that he is special by titling and health testing. Of course, you don't _have_ to, but people who want to do it right will. 

There are a lot of Asko descendents that are completely fine, many people on this board have Asko Grand-pups who are doing superb and are a joy to own. I just happened to have some experience with one particular pup that goes back to Asko, and heard some information on him, so I mentioned that. Though my info is second/third/fourth hand, but it did support and explain a lot about this particular pup. The issues I had with that pup may have been less a factor of Asko, and more a factor of the pup's sire - who is NOT in Bison's pedigree, so you should be fine.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

If this puppy was too exhibit handler aggression I would hard at the parent that is 5-5 on Ilko vom Lindenhalle and 5-5 on Mink vom Wittfield. I have Asko vom Lutter in two of my dogs and have researched him pretty thoroughly and handler aggression was not a concern for me. Also, this puppy has a line back to Nick Heilingborsch(sp). Just my observation.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Castlemaid said:


> That is a very good pedigree. Based on pedigree alone, your dog would be very breedworthy.


Unfortunately, having a good pedigree does NOT make a dog breedworthy. I know of plenty of dogs with AWESOME pedigrees and crappy nerves and/or temperament.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Asko was known for strong aggression and lower threshold for aggression, but not handler aggression as it is commonly defined. Not the sort found in Mink and other lines.

For the OP, the best and surest way to get good, accurate info on the dogs would be to contact the breeders of the parents. Rita Wurts in Belgium for Ewo, and Carlos Rojas in NJ for Dutchess. Both are online and I'm sure would be happy to share with you about the dogs.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

That's why I like Asko for his strong aggression, strong prey, and good hip production. Carlos, the breeder of Dutchess, has bred very strong dogs for sometime. He lives about an hour from me. I remember when he brought Cay v Tiekerhook in the country. Not a pretty dog but a strong dog.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I'm with Carolina . You can look at a pedigree and say, wow look at all those famous dogs, but if they are all the same kind of dog, you might just have a problem. The pedigree usually ends up in a file cabinet, you have to live with the dog. 

My point was, that Asko himself was not handler aggressive. I had an Asko daughter here. She was socially aggressive, ( meaning very protective as far as strangers went), but quite stable and affectionate to people she knew. Her mother line was from the Maineiche kennel and those dogs can be quite aggressive. So, at first, I looked there as the source for the aggression. Since then, I have worked a number of dogs with Asko close in the pedigree, none were handler aggressive but you could see the aggression and a definite nerve edge. So, what I am saying is, if you have a female with that same edge and easy to get aggression, maybe the Asko bloodline is not the one to use. When you see these behaviors and you are planning to breed, you have to consider just how much of that you want. It is usually a case of the combination, not just one dog in the pedigree.

Working line people seem to suffer from the same problem the show line people have, where if a little is good , then more is better. Or else, they just have no idea what the dogs behind their breeding stock were like. There are too many pedigrees now where you can see the sharpness in just about every line and drive, drive, drive. You could add to that pedigree, a dog like Asko and that might just take you over the line as far as how well the dog can control himself. 
People in SchH now seem to get a bit too excited by the aggression factor , ( without enough consideration of the dog's nerves), and want too much drive in the dogs. They are more attracted to dogs who are very easy to stimulate. When you get too much of those things, IMO, that is when you start to get into problems with the handler. I see many dogs that people are very impressed with as far as SchH but when I watch, I see more frantic behaviors vs a dog who sort of exudes composure and confidence. You have to be careful when you breed dogs that are showing the nerves a bit and look for a way to offset it. People are too busy now looking for the tree that indicates a problem vs seeing the whole forest when they watch the dog's behaviors. 

There are dogs who are dominate and then there are dogs who are just too excitable and possessive. I see more of the later than the former when it comes to handler aggression nowadays. Years ago, there were handler aggressive dogs , ( didn't hear about them as often as now), but they were a different type. Usually very dominate and tough dogs, and the drive level was not off the wall. Now, I think we see dogs being this way because they can't control themselves. That is a function of the drive and also because the nerves are not the same.

What people claim about Mink, I have not seen, although there is probably little doubt about Crok, since so many claim to have experienced it. I watched Mink being worked in a seminar and although the methods were not kind, he not once tried to bite his handler. So, he himself, IMO, was not handler aggressive, at least not in response to corrections. Goes back to the same idea I just talked about though. How much of certain behaviors you put into a pedigree and where you go next as far as breeding when you see those behaviors while working the dogs. 

This is one reason I have criticized the methods used to train dogs in SchH now. People are not really seeing the results of stress on the dog and how they handle it. They then breed that animal claiming they "know it all" because they "do SchH". There really are a lot less people "doing schutzhund" now, even though they have titled their dogs.

One last point, socially aggressive dogs do not change homes easily. They need more time to adjust to a new owner than other dogs. Therefore, if you have a dog like that constantly changing homes and being handled by people who don't understand that , you can see big problems start to develop.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have owned a number of dogs going back on Mink including Jenni and Iko Lindenhalle. I have gotten some very strong dogs with a lot of aggression from these lines, but NEVER EVER handler aggression. 

I actually crossed these lines with Belschik Eicken-Bruche, who I have heard some pretty interesting stories about (from reliable sources), and still got no handler aggression. Then a daughter from that cross to an Asko Lutter son, and again, no handler aggression. These dogs, if anything, are too compliant (for me). It is just a matter of always paying attention to the nerves in the dogs and maintaining balance in the breeding (phenotype and genotype).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I agree with the posts by Anne, Lisa and Chris, and only want to say that often a handler aggressive dog is merely a strong/or aggressive dog that is in the wrong hands. I agree that Crok seems to be the only dog of recent times that constantly enters the handler aggressive conversation to the point that their might be smoke. But often dogs through Sagus Busecker Schloss, Falko vom haus Sindern, Tom z PS, Mink vh Wittfield, and others will produce very strong aggression with varying degrees of nerve strength(depending also on who the other side is). Often if these dogs have dominant or alpha traits and are in the hands of handlers or owners that are not savy enough, you can see a handler aggressive dog emerge. The dog wasn't naturally handler aggressive but the product of the variables described is a dog that will at that point not accept certain things from owner/handler without aggression.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I find myself wondering just what "genetic" or natural handler aggression would be anyway?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Actually, there may be no DNA for handler aggression, but their are dogs that have been known to produce the individual traits,(high aggression, low thresholds, very civil,etc. ), that when manifest produce a dog that will commit the acts or behavoirs that we catergorize as handler aggression. Dogs like Crok and Sagus, it seems produced a lot of dogs that ended up with inept handlers or had a propensity to produce some dogs that exhibited this behavoir.(Or a combination of both???)


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I love these discussions and everyone's contributions. So very interesting, I can never get enough. So much to digest and think about.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I personally don't think there is a handler aggression DNA strand floating around in the gene pool. Perhaps in some very few cases, but even then I doubt it. But there do seem to be certain personality types that can predispose a dog to that sort of behavior if environmental factors line up to bring about the behavior. The cases I have seen of "handler aggression" have for the most part fallen into 2 categories.

Dogs with strong aggression where aggression is easily stimulated through conflict, but who lose some clarity in their head when that happens. If that conflict stems from the handler, which very often it does, the resulting aggression is directed right back to from whence it came. In many cases, if the dog were handled differently, that behavior would never come about. Often this is seems to be misinterpreted as a super strong, kick butt dog when actually in many cases the lack of clarity in a conflict situation indicates the opposite. 

Dogs with high social aggression, which as Anne said don't bond quickly or easily to new handlers, switching hands (often many times), and frequently it seems ending up with someone who thinks because a dog has a stack of titles and therefore knows the work he should just automatically work for a new handler right away as soon as the plane lands, taking no time to establish any sort of relationship, trust or respect with the dog (or trying to do so through "I'll show him who's boss" type means). Here the dog is often labled a super dominant monster bent on world domination when again, it is handler created. 

And sadly, dogs of both personality types frequently seem to be the type of dogs that handlers most apt to provide those environmental triggers are attracted to.

Having owned a dog who went through the later situation and had bitten many people previously as he played musical homes on 2 continents before ending up here here, and then also having gotten to know quite well another dog of similar circumstance and reputation and see the difference in him once he finally ended up with the right handler, I have found that these same dogs who not bond quickly or easily, once they do bond (provided they are given the chance to), bond on a level stronger and deeper and much more incorruptible than any others I have experienced. We raised and trained from puppyhood a son out of the first dog, and a son and daughter out of the second and there have been ZERO instances of handler aggression in any of them despite having "handler aggressive" parents, grandparents, etc... But we have certainly experienced that above average type of bonding.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There are dogs I have never been a fan of and Cliff just mentioned a couple of them. Sagus is one of them. I saw one rather nasty dog out of him and although the handler really was quite talented at bringing out that nasty side, I still had to look at the dog and compare him to other dogs who were simply much more "Handler Tolerant". The sire of Saugus, Grief z. Lauhtal can be in the pedigree but that is not a dog I would be loading up on . I have heard about other people who trained dogs from Saugus and the adjectives they used to describe their experiences, combined with what I saw with my own eyes, just made me want to avoid that line or at the very least minimize it. As for dogs coming from Mink, the dogs out of Mink who produced either handler aggression issues, or aggression that was just a bit too much on the nasty side of the scale, had Mink on the top and Canto Weinerau in the mother line. This goes back to what I was saying about aggression and nerves. When you breed aggression into weakness, look out, because you will see that result pop up from time to time. Add too much drive on top of that and oh my, now you are getting into crazy territory. 


Cliff wrote: 


> their are dogs that have been known to produce the individual traits,(high aggression, low thresholds, very civil,etc. ), that when manifest produce a dog that will commit the acts or behavoirs that we catergorize as handler aggression. Dogs like Crok and Sagus, it seems produced a lot of dogs that ended up with inept handlers or had a propensity to produce some dogs that exhibited this behavoir.(Or a combination of both???)


Here is an excerpt from that article I posted in the other thread that all you people ignored. lol. I will keep picking things out of it to make my points though. 











The rest are important as well but medium sensitivity is what I am pointing to in this quote. I think this bit of advice is what is being ignored in the working lines now

Also, one other comment. What I said in my last post about the kind of dog people like now in SchH . I have worked a number of dogs that are easier to reach and stimulate. Speaking as a helper, if you are good at helper work, you can really make dogs like that look good, because they will react to all the things you have learned to do in training as a helper. This makes YOU , the helper, look good and is IMO, why so many helpers will kind of rant about how good these types of dogs are. In reality though, once they are put into a situation where the training skills are gone and the test begins, you will start see the cracks in the temperament. Either in loss of control , maybe an out problem or that kind of nasty aggression I talked about above. The dogs might start looking for other places to bite besides the sleeve. That is not what so many want to think it is, where they call a dog like that "serious". That is actually, more often than not, weakness. If there is no sleeve available or the dog is protective and will bite for that reason, ( to protect), when no sleeve is present, that is one thing. But, when it is there and the dog looks to bite somewhere else, that's when I start thinking that I don't like the dog. 

What I said about making these dogs look good is hard to explain unless you do helper work but I am just saying, I can see how people get attracted to those dogs but you have to guard against getting caught up in your training skills and force yourself to keep the focus on the dog. Especially if you are a breeder.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> *The dogs might start looking for other places to bite besides the sleeve. That is not what so many want to think it is, where they call a dog like that "serious". That is actually, more often than not, weakness.* If there is no sleeve available or the dog is protective and will bite for that reason, ( to protect), when no sleeve is present, that is one thing. But, when it is there and the dog looks to bite somewhere else, that's when I start thinking that I don't like the dog.


Interesting comment.. And one you hear a lot.. Makes you think back about a lot of dogs you've seen working, when someone claims the dog is "serious," but in reality it is lacking in temperament..

I'm still learning all this stuff..


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Medium sensitivity threshholds.....that says a lot....its amazing how things remain the same. The founders of breed warned against certain evils and many have come to past. Dr. Rommel could see some 25 years ago what was happening to the breed in general and certain lines in particular. People like Anne, Chris, Lisa, Samba, Selzer, and many others post things so the new individuals that want to avoid the pitfalls can do so and not have to learn from hardship.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Interesting, the first dog I saw exhibit some handler aggression was a Mink grandson through Lewis. He went to Sagus on the dam's side.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Yes and I hear dogs descended from Mink are rather ugly too...but I have one of those dogs and well silly ole me I don't think she is ugly. She can make a helper look good though its rather annoying


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Ahhh, they can't all be ugly!


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Here is the pedigree of the Sagus son I talked about in an earlier post.










You can see Greif and Saugus there on the top and Canto there in the mother line. Take note of Vlop. Not sure if most would notice right off the bat, but he is Asko Lutter's great grandfather behind Asko's sire Dino. This dog was from the same kennel as Dino.

Of course, this dog was also highly accomplished in SchH. He was on the world team three times, finishing 18th with a 285 and 98 in protection in 1990 and did well at the Nationals also. 
Luckily his owner was a doctor, so when he took a piece out of her arm, she would just sit in her van and stitch it up herself.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh, that is good. I would love packing that training bag.... leash, tug, harness, suture kit.. On second thought, I'd stay home!


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

My dogs- well 4 of them- are linebred 4 - 4,4 in G Crok vom Erlenbusch and 5,5 - 5,5 in SG Mink vom Haus Wittfeld

The other Mink comes through Lewis. I have not experienced an inch of handler aggression in any of them. They will fight a correction occasionally, but they never come up the leash. I think I agree with others that handler aggression doesn't really manifest as long as you are Fair and the dog was raised right. 

And I don't think my dogs are ugly...


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

The pedigree was posted for informational purposes, not to tell everyone with Mink in their pedigrees to run for cover. lol. However, in my opinion there are behaviors associated with bloodlines and what you see in one area, you can also see in others. Meaning, not only in obedience but protection and tracking. Also if the dog was working doing something else, including being a family dog. Some of the behaviors I saw in those dogs, who ultimately bit their handlers, I have also seen in other dogs who did not. It can be in the way they behave after a correction, like what you mentioned with your dog. I guess I have learned to recognize what those behaviors are and how they can manifest themselves when the dogs are stressed.

 I worked this dog quite a bit as the helper. The out was a big problem and the handler used the e-collar to control him. Now, I understand all about high or low stim and all that kind of stuff and I am not really interested in talking about that. What I am talking about is what I saw in the dog. When he bit his handler, ( when I witnessed it anyway), it was always either in response to a correction or to stop one from being applied. The dog had a definite edge to him and you could see it when he was told to out in protection. Keeping in mind that the dog was not playing in protection and was really in a fight with the helper, when he would out, he would come off and kind of snarl as was coming off and took a few seconds to calm down . You could hear it in the first few barks after the out. I remember at the Nationals the judge taking points and commenting on how the dog should be calmer after the out. At the time, it didn't quite make sense to me that a judge would expect a dog to be calm while working in protection but now I know he meant. The dog should have been more composed. You might hear judges comment on the "transition phase" , the period where the dog is told to out and when he finally does. They look for a dog to out in a more composed fashion and IMO, while many, ( even some of the judges), don't understand why that is so important, I do because I saw how that behavior was associated with other things he did including being aggressive to his handler. There was a definite connection there and if you read back about what I and others said about the behaviors associated with dogs biting their handlers, one consistent is the dog kind of losing his mind for a minute. As for the dog I am discussing, the kind of nastiness that came out when there was conflict was apparent in just about everything he did. Yes, the handler pushed it and found out where that can lead and the dog figured out how to stop the stress, but the behavior was there in the dog. It was genetic. People nowadays are getting really cleaver at removing conflict and in so doing, they are removing the ability to see who the dogs really are.

There are so many things to see when you watch dogs work in SchH but a huge number of people are not looking or noticing. That leads me ask the same question over and over about what the use of SchH is. Nowadays, the dogs see much less stress and to be honest, if I had started training dogs recently, I would not even know to look for the stuff I see in some dogs. I recognize it because of what I saw years ago. So many are quick to talk about how "unsophisticated" the training was back then. Perhaps, but who the dogs were became rather obvious, if you cared enough to look. Again, the pedigree is for information only. Just something for people to keep in mind because I can tell you for certain, that the behaviors in bloodlines can remain pretty consistent generation after generation.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

Thanks Anne. That was a very good post. 

I guess I was just remembering back to when I got my first dog and was researching after the fact (stupid I know) and reading some people's posts I was convinced I had somehow got a homicidal maniac dog that was going to eat me in my sleep. I have discovered that pedigree is not enough to necessarily start a full-on panic. You have to look at the dog in front of you. But there are certainly tendencies that have to be acknowledged and taken into account when developing training.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have seen the oddest little behaviors be genetic. The way the dog jumps and turns in the kennel or snorting when happy for example. It is more remarkable in the little noticeable idiosyncrasies, but it made me think fairly complex behaviors must be genetic also.


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## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

wow. that is all a lot to digest. lol. 

The only aggression Baron has ever exhibited is if someone is at the door. He still is in the mind to listen though. I have never even heard him growl or seen him show his teeth. My brother did once but it was a very stressful and confusing time for him since it was the first day we took him from my sister. 


As far as the ugly thing...Baron is VERY handsome. lol. I love taking him out around people and other animals to make sure he stays social and test his ability to listen in new settings and with many distractions. So far so good around other pets and kids. He still has a little crazy puppy in him but he listens really well. 

No matter his line, he is an amazing dog, I just don't want to consider the breeder's offer if it isn't worth it in the long run for the breed. Although I won't know truly until I can get his hips checked and all that fun stuff.


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## Nelly (May 15, 2005)

lhczth said:


> I have owned a number of dogs going back on Mink including Jenni and Iko Lindenhalle. I have gotten some very strong dogs with a lot of aggression from these lines, but NEVER EVER handler aggression.
> 
> I actually crossed these lines with Belschik Eicken-Bruche, who I have heard some pretty interesting stories about (from reliable sources), and still got no handler aggression. Then a daughter from that cross to an Asko Lutter son, and again, no handler aggression. These dogs, if anything, are too compliant (for me). It is just a matter of always paying attention to the nerves in the dogs and maintaining balance in the breeding (phenotype and genotype).



lhczth,

Are you able to please share what you have heard of Belschik ?  PM if you would like instead. 

thanks,

Katie.


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## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

you could post on this thread! I wouldn't mind and I'm sure others would enjoy as well!


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I met Belschik when he was an old dog. He was very approachable. I was able to pet him and interact with him. He was a dog that walked around like he owned the world. He knew, even at 12, that he was important and he put out the persona when you met him. He had a lot of social aggression, very dominant, rather rank in some ways to handle.

He was a tough dog to breed because he would get grumpy to the handler during the tie. That is why they chose to do AI over here. He also had long ties and they did muzzle him. He was a total gentleman to my bitch, but did grumble at the vet during the collection. 

Supposedly he chewed up his handler during protection at some point, but I was told that story more than 5 years ago so the details are sketchy. I do remember the comments about his long bite. He was not only fast, but he accelerated the last couple of meters before the strike. He was a tough dog to catch because of this. 

I have never heard of any of these issues in his kids and I sure didn't experience any of them. My Belschik kids are now 6.


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## SchHGSD (Dec 20, 2001)

I have video of Belschik playing with his handler, can't remember exactly what happens, but the handler touches the dog and gets growled at- darn now I have to go dig out that old tape....


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

How did they come up with his name? what does it mean?


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## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

I don't see that dog in mine's line?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

He isn't. We sort of got side tracked. 

I don't know where they came up with his name.


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## DangerousBeauty (Jul 8, 2010)

oh ok. haha. so easy to confuse me on this stuff! 


I did talk to a woman that has seen Ewo in Shutzhund for the last few years and loves him! Although she did say when he first came they called him the jerk! This was because he apparently does not like correction and has a extremely high prey drive. I will be going to see them sunday so I will be able to see how he performs. I am super excited, as was the woman I talked to today!


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