# Where did the term 'civil' come from?



## Castlemaid

In another thread, people were wondering how the term 'civil' came about to describe a dog that has active fight/defense drives and will engage for real came about. Have to admit I've wondered about it myself. Anyone know?


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## wildo

Thanks for the spin-off thread, Castlemaid. I'm subbing for updates!


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## 4TheDawgies

I have always wondered this too! Looking forward to hearing some insight!


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## Kev

I think civil could be prey or defense. A dog could bite for real with prey or defense depending on the situation. Read it somewhere on another GSD forum.


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## Neo93

I *think* it comes from the fact that the dog is willing to bite someone with no bite suit/bite sleeve on - an ordinary citizen, or civilian - as opposed to someone in law enforcement or the military.


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## CassandGunnar

Possibbly relating to civil service. I have a friend who is a retired college English professer. If he can't tell me outright, he'll know where I can look.


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## Mrs.K

In Germany we use the term Zivil (short term for Zivilisten which means citizens) instead of Civil. 

I believe the term might be a translation out of Zivil. Zivilisten (Citizens, not Uniformed People working under the military, police etc.) is the word for regular people, like you and me. If a dog goes for Zivilisten, no sleeve or anything else, he's Zivil. 
If somebody says "Der ist auf Zivil trainiert" ("He's trained to be civil") that means that the dog is going for regular people, not the bite suit. Zivilisten (citizens). 
So I do believe that it is coming out of the civil defense terminology.


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## BlackthornGSD

Mrs.K said:


> In Germany we use the term Zivil (short term for Zivilisten which means citizens) instead of Civil.
> 
> I believe the term might be a translation out of Zivil. Zivilisten (Citizens, not Uniformed People working under the military, police etc.) is the word for regular people, like you and me. If a dog goes for Zivilisten, no sleeve or anything else, he's Zivil.
> If somebody says "Der ist auf Zivil trainiert" ("He's trained to be civil") that means that the dog is going for regular people, not the bite suit. Zivilisten (citizens).
> So I do believe that it is coming out of the civil defense terminology.


I'm betting this is the true history of this use.


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## wildo

Very interesting Mrs.K! Thanks for the info!


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## DFrost

It's an intrusion of sport into police service dog training. It is a term used to describe a dog that will bite without protection. It wasn't used in the PSD arena until sport became very wide spread. 


DFrost


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## ladylaw203

Ok DFROST means the dog will engage a human without the person wearing a sleeve,bite suit etc. Not a jute junkie. A police dog has to be civil. We have seen sport dogs run around a person looking for the sleeve. Just wanted to clarify the um lack protection........


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## DFrost

Chuckle, chuckle, you got me. ha ha

DFrost


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## dzg

Thanks Mrs. K. I learnt something today!

Some have said that a police dog is required to be "civil", but I need to understand that some more. Perhaps I misunderstand the intent:

Civil = A dog that *wants* to bite? OR a dog that *will* bite?

I saw a video on youtube of London police k9's biting a protestor who was just standing there, not provoking the dog, this is "civil"?? 

So I'm thinking civil means a dog that wants to bite and will if allowed to do so.

Given that 99% of the dogs will end up in homes with families (very few make it to k9 service) isn't that just plain dangerous?
And aren't breeders concerned about litigation? Responsibility? People have been sued for much much less 

Note: perhaps when the iron curtain was up and border control dogs were required to have a certain "profile" then this was considered acceptable, but apart from North Korea I can't see why anyone would want a "civil" dog today. Yikes!!


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## Mrs.K

Training and the situation plays a huge role in it. 

At a demonstration the dogs can feel the tension, they are already amped up, they can feel the dynamic so the dog might actually leap forward. 

That same dog might not bite a normal person in a regular situation. 

I grew up with dogs that had that kind of potential yet these dogs were the most stable dogs I've ever encountered. As a matter of fact, Gildo had it, Olko had it, Satan had it. All three lived in the house, with each other and us kids (said it before). But they also were in the right hands. 

In the wrong hands, a civil dog can be a disaster and a ticking time-bomb and dangerous. But it doesn't have to be that way. 

It's one of those things. These dogs are also called "Real Dogs" and everyone wants one but not many can handle them. 

I know that one of mine has the potential but she's also got over the top prey-drive so the prey drive overrides it. Her breeder warned me about her potential and I know what's in her. I've seen a glimpse of it which is why I don't tamper around with it. I primarily work her in prey. Heck, even in prey I could get her to bite my arm when I move it a certain way. 
Sometimes I'm more concerned about her prey and speed than about the civil part. She is the sweetest dog at home but I know what's in her and since we've had that accident with my friend none of my friends is allowed to play with her anymore. Just not worth it...


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## wolfstraum

Going back to basics - the work of 'schutzhund' was meant to showcase the stability of the dog and the ability to discern between a real threat and a person in a neutral position....in sport today, dogs are taught to work a sleeve - ie, the "jute junkie" as per an earlier post....but to be fair, that extreme prey drive is a goal in so many breedings!!!!

There are still dogs with the ability and the inclination to engage a threat...who will not focus on a sleeve on the ground while a decoy tries to engage their attention....I think the popularity of the Czech/DDR lines is because of this perception of the buying public...that these dogs will be more protective - ie -will be civil and engage a threat....BUT dogs who engage for real without discernment of a true threat vs a playmate are no more desirable than a prey monster....neither is a balanced temperament

I have had one line now which has produced truly civil dogs - Xito Maineiche to Kyra Frolich Haus (2-5,5 on Lord G. - no Mink or Fero)...Cito (ATB) and Csabre are both very very very 'civil' dogs. Csabre will work hard to engage children to pet her in public....loves them, and yet will work a suit or hidden arm...as a young dog when starting training (~1.5 years old), she would spit the sleeve and go over it to a decoy - to his dismay! When worked by a few very very experienced helpers, these dogs are very real, and Csabre in particular is always praised as a "strong" and "real" female..these dogs are said to "bring the fight to the helper" - Xito was like this too...Cairo from this litter is obedient and adores his handlers young daughter, but is a border (Vermont/Canada) Patrol dog with many drug busts and SAR finds to his credit as well.

My Tom L x Ufo dogs, although very high in prey, have also shown the tendency when called for to show 'civil' temperament -but, like Mrs. K. says, they are generally worked in prey for sport/titles....the Csabre x Ufo pups have shown very good prey, but the civil side is very evident as well. Several of my Ufo grandkids are LE dogs in Europe/

Lee


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## ladylaw203

Rarely do we police service dog trainers see a sport dog that will fully engage a human without much more training.notice I said fully engage. It is not the fault of the dog. It is training. We do muzzle take downs etc


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## Mrs.K

ladylaw203 said:


> Rarely do we police service dog trainers see a sport dog that will fully engage a human without much more training.notice I said fully engage. It is not the fault of the dog. It is training. We do muzzle take downs etc


One of the reasons Nala's breeder only sells green dogs to the police and only when they are of a certain age. 
Generally he does not sell a single dog without HD/ED results. He brings them up for the job and once they are one year of age, he sells them to the German Police, green. 

I must say, I prefer, one/two year old, green dogs, myself. It's so much easier than puppies. Mainly because of the health factor and because you can jump into working them for the job, right away.


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## ladylaw203

The main difference in sport and the real world is that we train the dog for a real fight.patrol dogs get kicked,hit etc. That stick in sport is nothing compared to a crook fighting the dog. We train them to fight a human


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## Mrs.K

ladylaw203 said:


> The main difference in sport and the real world is that we train the dog for a real fight.patrol dogs get kicked,hit etc. That stick in sport is nothing compared to a crook fighting the dog. We train them to fight a human


I know. My dad used to train with the German and Swiss Boarder Patrol and the Police since he sold lots of his dogs to them. That is how I know where the term "Zivil" is coming from. They are trained to go after "Zivilisten" (regular Citizens) and not a helper hence they are "Zivil" (civil).


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## wolfstraum

I do know the difference - the sire of my H litter was a K9/Cadaver dog, who was awarded a "hero" dog status for saving his handler from a knife armed parolee.....and have done a good bit of training with K9 officers....there are lines and dogs out there that are still bred with strength enough for K9 work - 

Lee


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## ladylaw203

I was not talking about pedigrees. I am a breeder too. It is about training.we cannot take a sport titled dog and put him on the street without a lot of additional training


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## wolfstraum

ladylaw203 said:


> I was not talking about pedigrees. I am a breeder too. It is about training.we cannot take a sport titled dog and put him on the street without a lot of additional training


no one said that - even though many small departments do buy titled dogs - have seen alot of them...know several NAPWDA master trainers, and more K9 Handlers....

There is an old saying that "Blood will tell" among horsemen....it is applicable to dogs too...problem is that too many can't tell the difference between a sport dog and one who is trained in sport...

Lee


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## ladylaw203

Most vendors import GSDs,mals,and dutchies who are titled or have some training. Not just small departments. No sport only trained dog is ready for the street without further training. Now some departments think they are until they find out differently. I have been a certifying official for many years and we see that. Failed several dogs recently with that problem. They backed up,got further training and passed. Nice dogs but again,no dog with nothing but sport training is fully operational for patrol work without more training


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## DFrost

I run a fairly decent sized police k9 unit and know of several in the area. Titles are just not a concern. While there may some benefit in early stages of sport training, sport dogs need a lot of training before they are ready for the street. I've always like their foundation in ob and I even like FST to begin tracking. Although it's only good to start dogs that way because it's way too slow for real world stuff. I understand breeders being concerned about pedigrees and ancestry, but police trainers just don't care. Adult dogs can be evaluated, the amount of training they have had can be tested and the health tests are pretty conclusive when testing an adult dog. 

DFrost


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## wolfstraum

while police officers do not CARE about the pedigree....the pedigree can predict what you should get in a dog.....if I want to breed for LE dogs, I will be more successful using certain bloodlines than others....you may not care what the pedigree says, but you will like certain lines of dogs without checking or knowing the pedigree....while a good breeder can identify those lines and use them to produce certain characteristics...

two sides of the same coin.....just a different position and perspective...

Lee


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## DFrost

which is why I said; "I understand breeders being concerned about pedigrees and ancestry," they need to be concerned if they want to continue selling to police departments. The police trainer is only concerned with a healthy dog that will do the job. if a dog has it, it has it. If it doesn't there isn't much anyone can do to fix it. 

DFrost


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## Tim Connell

I always think of it like this analogy:

A sport dog is like a man trained in the sport of boxing. They have been trained within the boundaries of rules. When to maintain control, when to strike, where to target, when to stop engaging. All at the direction of a Judge, and rules, with defined boundaries, of a 'fair fight".

A police dog is like a street fighter, operating without rules of a "fair fight". If a classically trained boxer that has never fought outside the ring is thrown in a street fight, and operates by the rules, in most cases, the outcome may not be favorable. Not because the boxer has a lack of talent, strength, nerve, or any other physical quality- just a lack of exposure to operating in that environment.

In most cases, you can't take a dog that's been trained in a sterile "sport only" environment, and expect it to operate in a realistic environment, if has only seen a sport field. I concur with the others that sport dogs often have great foundations to build upon, but oftentimes many of the issues like environmental stability, etc. necessary for real life deployment have been neglected or minimized since the dog would never encounter it on a sport field, thus has never been exposed to it.


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## cliffson1

Excellent post Tim!!!!!.....That really sums it up. 
@DZG.....I raise and send dogs to police depts every year. All of these dogs start at pups and leave me at 18 months to 2 years. They all play with my grandchildren during their stay with me. I have posted many pics of them with the kids. Yet at 18 months they are ready to make the conversion to being a civil dog on the streets. Now I do have the advantage of training with the police and not allowing my dog to become sleeve fixated or I flush out environmental issues, but my point is a patrol dog can be civil from training, and still a great family dog. 
OTOH, there are lines of sport dogs today that the breeding practices for years for sport has created dogs that will not make that transition to police work whether it is for environmental issues or civil issues. These sport dogs will do great on the sport field but when confronted with the rigors of what a patrol dog should have as a minimum, they don't cut it. And its not training....its genetics.


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## cliffson1

@ Mrs. K, ......I will say that the bloodlines that your father bred, and I have seen a lot of dogs from these lines can definitely do police service work. But then again those lines are known for their balance of prey and defense, and also for bigtime fight drive


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> @ Mrs. K, ......I will say that the bloodlines that your father bred, and I have seen a lot of dogs from these lines can definitely do police service work. But then again those lines are known for their balance of prey and defense, and also for bigtime fight drive


Yup. It sucks that it's over though. Wiandra was the last brood bitch bred by my parents and she didn't conceive the last couple of times Mom was breeding her. She wanted to do one last litter and I was looking forward to a dog out of our own kennel. 

Yukon is eight, Yorkan is eight, Wiandra is seven, Toni is nine or ten... that's it. The last dogs out of our kennel. Not sure how many are still out there. I'm hoping that there are still some dogs out of the Y, W and Z litter active in sport and used to continue the line. It saddens me but all good things have an end. But the dogs will live on. It's just getting harder to find them. :help:


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## cliffson1

@Dzg, here are two pups that I have now that both uneqivocally will become PSD when the time comes. The large one is 9 months, and 4 depts want him right now; when he reaches the right age, but he has drive off the charts, environmental sureness , settles, easy to manage in public, but when pushed, bigtime fight. A half brother of another dog; Chris, that is a PSD dog in NJ. The little puppy has been with me for 4 days.....ROCK solid nerve, environmental stuff off the charts for his age, don't take NO stuff off anyone, and plays with my 6 year old grandson all day. Just wanted to give examples of the type of dogs you feel should be Police service dogs. Both of these dogs will have no problems making the transition into civil work with training!


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## ladylaw203

I certainly agree with the genetics issue. I bred my Gabbi to mike diehls erri. My priorities are breeding for work. Hopefully, the litter will have some


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## onyx'girl

cliffson1 said:


> @Dzg, here are two pups that I have now that both uneqivocally will become PSD when the time comes. The large one is 9 months, and 4 depts want him right now; when he reaches the right age, but he has drive off the charts, environmental sureness , settles, easy to manage in public, but when pushed, bigtime fight. A half brother of another dog; Chris, that is a PSD dog in NJ. The *little puppy has been with me for 4 days.....ROCK solid nerve, environmental stuff off the charts for his age, don't take NO stuff off anyone,* and plays with my 6 year old grandson all day. Just wanted to give examples of the type of dogs you feel should be Police service dogs. Both of these dogs will have no problems making the transition into civil work with training!


That "little" puppy is WOW! I hope you update us on M's progress.


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## cliffson1

He is very very nice.....fearless and will attempt anything. Will go anywhere. Just got back from Petsmart with him and he tried to take over the place. Nothing bothered him, floor, people, or other dogs. Never raised hair in back one time and never has submissively peed one time. I think I like him. :crazy: But to stay on topic, this is a pup that the civil drive is very close to surface, its just his nerve is so strong the threshold is high.


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