# Should I get her mom?



## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

My little girls mom will be up for adoption. She is 500 plus spaying here at home and I have to either get her or ship her. She is 5 years old and will be available in dec 2012 after her last breeding. I have not met her yet but her pups are wonderful. She is full DDR and has a cgc and bh. 
I will be going to wisconsin to go introduce the two first. Im so nervous cause she is full grown and has bonded with the breeder... but she sure is wonderful!









This is her!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Gosh I hope you don't have any bitch-to-bitch aggression with them. 
Other than that, sounds like a good deal.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Agreed... mother/child relations with dogs aren't always great, so I'd be very careful in deciding to do so, particularly with two females.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Gosh I hope you don't have any bitch-to-bitch aggression with them.
> Other than that, sounds like a good deal.


I hope I don't either... I don't think there will be a problem.. Angel is cgc and Dia will be going for cgc this winter. Dia loves everybody and from what melinda has told me so does angel. 
but they will be reintroduced before i would bring her home for safety sake..


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

She's gorgeous. :wub:

I hope you do not have any issues with them!

At least there is about a 5 year age difference between them.


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

I recently added a 5 year old retired breeding bitch from a working kennel to my pack. I just lost my male but still have my 11.5 year old female. I introduced them in a local park a few times before we brought Carlie home. There were no issues in the park at all. Carlie even got in the vehicle with Kya without incident. The dominance fight that happened 4 days after we brought Carlie home was one of the worst I've ever had. The first 3 days she was home they were playing and running around together. Not to say that we haven't been working thru it but you just need to be aware that it is possible. I do not feel comfortable ever leaving those 2 alone together. 

I hope it all works out well for you! Good luck!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

She is definitely beautiful. I would give it some definite thought and have a back up plan in case things don't work out. 

Being civil to each other during a short visit is very different than living together so be careful with that. I can take 2 of my sisters in small doses but leave us together for days at a time and the claws start coming out. IME, it takes a dog 2-3 months to settle in enough to start pushing boundaries and showing true colors. Some dogs take even longer. 

Best of luck making your decision.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Some of the best trained dogs have same sex aggression. A CGC is not a title, it's a pet certificate for walking on a loose leash, not freaking out after a timed seperation, etc.

A BH is a title, but in no way says either way whether your dog or the dam will be ok together. Personally I wouldn't pay $500 for a retired breeding dog, others may feel differently and I'm sure probably will. What matters is if YOU think she's worth it. Oftentimes people will say, "But look how much money the owner put into her, that makes her worth X amount of $$." This line of thinking doesn't sit well with me personally, because I put a ton of money into my dogs and that doesn't make them WORTH anymore.

Oftentimes there is no way to know if they'll be a problem together until they've settled into your house. They may meet fine and be fine for a couple weeks, then bam, fighting.

This can, of course, happen with any pairing, but it's most common with females and even more common with mother/daughters. 

Your puppy is still so young. Personally, I would focus on her vs bringing in another dog to focus on as well. What makes you interested in mom?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

OP

If you are getting her mom in Dec. 2012, your puppy will be closer to 2 years old and her mom will be 6 years old, right?


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

LaRen616 said:


> OP
> 
> If you are getting her mom in Dec. 2012, your puppy will be closer to 2 years old and her mom will be 6 years old, right?


That is correct. She will be one this march so two next march.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

Rerun said:


> What makes you interested in mom?


Her size, coloring, the fact she is ddr. Her temperment and everything I know about her makes her a wonderful dog. I know it may have some rough times with the two but I will do my best to work with it..


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Sorry, missed that age thing. I was thinking you were getting the dam this dec.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

Rerun said:


> Sorry, missed that age thing. I was thinking you were getting the dam this dec.


No problem  Everybody makes mistakes! I am guilty of skimming through stuff and missing importand facts


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

juliejujubean said:


> Her size, coloring, the fact she is ddr. Her temperment and everything I know about her makes her a wonderful dog. I know it may have some rough times with the two but I will do my best to work with it..


Are you prepared to have two dogs that, for the rest of their lives, can not ever be loose together in the house, yard, walked together, taken on car rides to outings together, etc? Is the breeder prepared to take the dam back if things don't work out? It's not always a matter of "pack leadership" which you'll certainly hear about shortly. Some of the best of the best have bitches that can not - ever - be together. Even spayed. Even well trained. 

I would not adopt a dog (which is what you're doing) based on their size and coloring. Temperament should be the ONLY reason you consider adopting her IMHO


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah meeting at a park and going for a stroll is one thing.
Bringing home another girl is another issue altogether.
I'd tread very carefully and be aware for the potential for a very nasty fight. 
Never leave them together unsupervised, even if it's to jump in the shower. 
Dogs can pick the most amazing things to fight over (even a piece of lint) or fight over nothing. Someone could walk by outside and they could be at each other's throats.


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## Lenny (Jul 25, 2005)

Is there really anything to the whole, female to female, mom to child, uncle to 3rd cousin stuff? I've never experienced it in all my years of dogs. Not saying there is nothing to it, just wondering. Sounds like the different color labs act different thing you always hear.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I think you are asking for trouble. Sorry.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

i know you are asking for trouble. big trouble. really sorry.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BTW, until you've lived with and dealt with female-female aggression, I don't think you really understand it.

I have a 9yr. old spayed female, and have 3 other girls in my home. For the most part they have easy-going personalities or they'd have never been able to live with my 9yr. old "queen B" Libby.
But one day, the Basset got into it with my Libby and it was a nightmare. I could barely get them apart. Well, we did but they kept going back at it. The Basset wound up injured and now she doesn't even _look _at Libby. 
Until Libby is gone, adding other females to our pack is completely out of the question. 
And she's very well-behaved and knows "the rules". A well-behaved or even titled bitch will not back down when challenged and once the fight has started, may not back down then. 
It's a very nasty thing to have to deal with. Someone else on here is giving away (adopting out) one of their girls because of this issue.

You'll have a while to think about it, maybe even foster a dog or two in the meantime. Definitely get it sorted out beforehand, to see if your girl can even tolerate another female in your home.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

These threads might help

 http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...tt-female-gsd-owners-can-2-live-together.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/158384-how-many-your-pack.html


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Or it may not be a problem at all. There are many, many female dogs who live together for their entire lives without problems. 

And I'm sure the breeder would be willing to take her back if a problem arose. I would also guess that if the breeder thought there would be potential for a problem she would find a different home for the dog.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> BTW, until you've lived with and dealt with female-female aggression, I don't think you really understand it.
> 
> I have a 9yr. old spayed female, and have 3 other girls in my home. For the most part they have easy-going personalities or they'd have never been able to live with my 9yr. old "queen B" Libby.
> But one day, the Basset got into it with my Libby and it was a nightmare. I could barely get them apart. Well, we did but they kept going back at it. The Basset wound up injured and now she doesn't even _look _at Libby.
> ...


Currently we have Dia and my roommate has a female Chihuahua named corona. Corona will go up to dia, steal her toy and dia will just think of it as playing. Corona will even growl at my girl and dia is like, whatever... she has never been agressive to Corona. just kinda thinks of it as are you playing with me.. she will wag her tail and shove a toy in coronas face if corona starts to be agressive. 

also this is what melinda just sent me

"I'm not too worried about Angel getting along with Dia. I do not have my un-spayed girls together, as they will get in to it. But Angel is the best of all of them. She can be out with my young females Edge (1 yr. old) and Nikki (7 mon.) and Angel always did just fine with my older spayed female I lost last year. It's just the intact factor. And she has never had any issue with any of my males or Border Collies. The only fight she's ever been in here is with Razzy and Razzy is the instigator in all of that. "


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I currently have a pack of eight dogs and have to keep my youngest (intact) female away from all of my other females (older and spayed). After a few really horrible fights, they can never be trusted with one another. This young female loves my male dogs and she is always out or buddied up with one or several of my males - NEVER, EVER with any of my females. 

In the last fight, I could not get the two females apart by myself. I was in my backyard and all of the dogs were peacefully enjoying a nice summer afternoon. When the fight between the two females started, several other dogs tried to join the fight and I was there by myself. No amount of anything that I did or tried helped to separate them and keep them separated. Every time that I got them separated, one of them jumped back in to fight again. Finally, my husband arrived home and grabbed one of the females and I got the other. Three hundred dollars later, the victim's ear was surgically repaired and two neck punctures were cleaned. My young female was not injured at all. She had done all of the biting and my senior female never got a bite in at all. 

This is the last fight that this one female will ever have with any of my dogs or fosters. She is always separated, rotated in and out with the boys and given her one-on-one time either separately or with just males present. It is a pain in the butt to do, but there is no other choice until I can find her a second home as a single pet (spayed) or only with another male in the home.

As an aside, this same female can go to dog shows, stores and to my vet and be fine with other females. The aggression is in her home pack on her home turf. She arrived as a ten week old puppy and now wants to be at the top of the pecking order. I honestly think that, if she were allowed to fight unattended, she would fight to the death of the other dog involved. 

Be extremely careful and vigilant. In my personal opinion, no amount of obedience training can untrain the desire of a dog to be at the top of the pecking order in a multi-dog household. 

I have four neutered males and there are no such problems at all.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Libby, mentioned in my earlier posts, attacked a Chihuahua last winter, a foster dog. Over popcorn. But it wasn't instantaneous, the attack.
What happened is that there was some popcorn spilled and the little Chi girl got a lot of it, because she fluffed herself up (hackles) and basically hoovered it up. 
Libby kind of sulked off for a bit and we didn't think any more of it. 
But about an hour later, Libby was lying in the middle of the floor and the Chi came flouncing over and Libs jumped up and grabbed her by the head and neck - like, the dog's whole _head_ was in her mouth - and just shook that Chi for about 15 seconds. It seemed like an hour! I was sure that Chi was dead, but when Libs let go, she ran off screaming and we realized, um, not a good idea to even have the dog in the main portion of the house. She got adopted shortly after that, whew. 

One of the main features of bitch-to-bitch aggression is the ability to hold a grudge - forever - and when you least expect it, it can rear it's ugly head.


Just be careful and be aware, is my motto. We've learned over the years that Libs can tolerate a lot we'd have never thought she would, but we also know better than trying to add another "bitchy" or "diva" type girl to the mix. If Libby was not so well behaved and respectful, she might have killed that Chihuahua outright. 

The other girls here are tomboy type girls so it works out well for the most part (now that the Basset has her undying respect).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Every time that I got them separated, one of them jumped back in to fight again.


That's what happened with the Basset and Libby - it's like they get untangled and one will think "the **** you say!!" and it's on again. I couldn't believe it when it was happening here, they kept going at it until we managed to get one girl on the other side of the gate. 

And I'll tell you - that Basset acts like Libby's not even there, which is the best tact to take with her. Don't acknowledge she's even there and you can't piss her off. And for God's sake, don't walk too close to her!! 

Oh, and having girls like this does tend to make you a fan of drama-free boys!!!


***


> It's just the intact factor.


I would not take that to the bank. All the girls here are spayed and it doesn't matter one iota.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

well graham and i are going up to melinda's after thanksgiving to make a preliminary introduction. by this we shall see if its 100% a no or not. they will spend time together and see how they react. I highly doubt melinda would adopt out one of her dogs to me if she thought there would be a problem. all i can ask is for you guys to wish me luck


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## Geeheim (Jun 18, 2011)

Good luck Julie! =)


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

Even if they get along at first does not mean they will get along later once they are both settled in and they want to see who is top dog. BUT good luck! You sure will need it.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Lenny said:


> Is there really anything to the whole, female to female, mom to child, uncle to 3rd cousin stuff?


No, there's nothing to it. We all just like to discourage people from getting dogs for fun....



Lenny said:


> I've never experienced it in all my years of dogs.


That's great


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> All the girls here are spayed and it doesn't matter one iota.


Yup, ditto, and they were all spayed long before problems cropped up. It happens generally at sexual maturity (if it's going to happen at all).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSDBESTK9 said:


> Even if they get along at first does not mean they will get along later once they are both settled in and they want to see who is top dog. BUT good luck! You sure will need it.


x2


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## Lenny (Jul 25, 2005)

Rerun said:


> No, there's nothing to it. We all just like to discourage people from getting dogs for fun....
> 
> 
> 
> That's great


Always this friendly?
Post some links to some studies. I would love to read them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Read away. You can research as well as anyone else.

Google


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

How is the "mom" housed at the breeders? What has been her living experience? Is she kept with and does she co-exist day to day loose with other females?


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## Lenny (Jul 25, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> Read away. You can research as well as anyone else.
> 
> Google


Everyone here is so friendly.

I did a search and all that came up are "trainers" telling others about the whole female/female thing. Unless there is some solid studies on it I don't buy it. I also saw several links to stories saying there is no problem with it as well. Dogs are pack animals. Do wild packs kick out all the females but one?

I've seen fights between males and a females and males and males. What does that mean? It means nothing just like a fight between a f/f.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Click the link above. It will take you to a website chalk full of studies, if you search for it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I understand what you mean. I've only run across one study, a small one at that, regarding spay surgery and the affect it had on aggression in females. This particular study used GSDs.

Scroll about half way down: Can Spaying Lead to Bad Behavior? | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

There is a lot of ancedotal evidence from experienced trainers/handlers that SSA among females tends to be worse then males. In the absence of studies disproving those claims (and based on my personal experiences) I'm going with SSA is more prevalent (and serious) with females.




Lenny said:


> Post some links to some studies. I would love to read them.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Lenny said:


> Always this friendly?


 No, not usually.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> There is a lot of ancedotal evidence from experienced trainers/handlers that SSA among females tends to be worse then males. *In the absence of studies disproving those claims (and based on my personal experiences) I'm going with SSA is more prevalent (and serious) with females.*


As I said before, it's easy to poo-poo the phenomenon until you've experienced it yourself. 
Lenny, I'm glad you've never dealt with it, and if it weren't for my Libs, I'd swear other people were nuts. 
It's hard to understand until you get a couple girls dead set on killing each other.
I was at the vet a few months ago, dropping off some dogs for surgery, I noticed a trail of blood clear to the back. I went back there (our vet is quite informal) and saw a lovely GSD girl who was torn up from head to toe.
Apparently the owner had acquired another (GSD) girl, and one of them or the other had gone into heat. 
A fight had transpired, and the "loser" was just shredded. She looked like someone had taken a lawn mower to her, it was so bad. 
And I will never forget her tongue - it was bitten through-and-through, numbers of times, and was bruising something awful.
The poor girl was shaking like a leaf, from adrenalin I'm sure, but as her adrenalin subsided, from pain too. The vet gave her a shot of something to ease the pain and relax her, and the tech was getting her in the tub to wash the blood off of her and find out where the wounds all were. There were dozens.
I don't even know what the "winner" looked like. But suffice it to say, they were searching for a home for one of the dogs 

It does exist, whether or not there's actual studies, I'd think the breeders on here who are saying "beware" would be worth listening to


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Now I think Lenny asked a good question, it would be interesting to see some actual studies done on same sex aggression.....very cool if different breeds were tested and compared. Also hard to do because of some ethical issues.....

but still.....

LOL!



Rerun said:


> No, not usually.


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## GSDLove (Dec 6, 2007)

My Abby, (RIP) was a DDR female and knew she was in charge. At the time I was fostering I could only foster males because she would attack females and even with the male only she would be very dominate with them. She and my husky as a few rows but no bleed shed.

She passed in May and I really miss her, but I would NEVER have two females again.

Mary


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Most of us didn't need studies to show us what we already know. But that said,

Google

Again, there are studies, but often related to general inter-dog aggression.

Speaking of fosters, we had a "chug" mix (chihuahua x Pug) who hated girls. I mean new ones she just met, she didn't stop to check if they were females or not, she just knew (smells, I guess). She would rush right out to the play-yard and attack. 
Boys, not an issue with her. She would play with them fine. 
It's not breed specific I don't believe.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My sister had 2 female Rat Terrier/Chihuahua mixes that were 2 years apart in age. They would get in terrible fights, my sister would pull them apart and get her hands all bit up in the process. 

They could not be out together at all, one was always in a crate or outside while the other was free. This went on for years until 1 of the females was walking past the crate of the other female, my baby nephew walked by and she jumped up and bit him in the face. She was rehomed after that.

My friend has a female ACD mix and a female Min Pin and they fight, but they haven't had any bloodshed yet.

My 5 month old female GSD pup gets along really well with my friends 14 month old female Doberman, for now.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

What is the point of going on and on and on? There are many people on this board who currently have (or have had) 2 or more females living together harmoniously. You don't hear about those stories because there's no story there. 

The OP is proceeding with an open mind to issues that could arise (as in...I think she gets it that sometimes there are problems with females living together) and I'm sure has a back-up plan in case problems do arise. 

In the meantime, perhaps we could all wish her good luck instead of continuing with the negativity and dire warnings. :hammer:


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have a couple of females, granted they aren't both gsd's..

At one point, I had Sami (gsd) she was around 6 when I got Jynx (aussie),,Sami was the queen of the household and EVERYONE knew it,,Jynx was a marshmellow, and for the most part they co existed fine, but often times I would really have to watch Sami who liked to "police" everyone, and felt it was her 'job' to correct problems..

Sami passed, Jynx was 9 when I got Masi (female gsd), Masi is rather a marshmellow when it comes to Jynx, they've never had a fight, masi likes to drag her around by the neck and when Jynx has had enough, lets her have it, masi backs off and moves on...

So,,for me personally, I haven't/don't have real issues with my two females, granted no where near close in age, nor breed. I think it CAN work, IF you don't have two females who's personalities are "I wanna be the big cheese"...when you have to pushy, bossy, bitches you are gonna have big problems..I always try to get puppies with personalities that I think will compliment my present dogs, personalities that aren't going to come in try to take over..

I will never have two females with pushy bossy attitudes..I've had 3 males and a female (all gsds) at one point, and didn't have any problems there either, but I think it's easier having multiple males than multiple females..

Ok done ranting,,MOM is a gorgeous gorgeous girl...It can work, or it can be your worst nightmare..I DO wish you good luck and hope it works out


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## Lenny (Jul 25, 2005)

How can you tell if two dogs just got in a fight/don't get along or if it's a f/f thing? One day my brother brought his male beagle over and my two, usually chill females, didn't attach him but they were not nice. I would call it a heavy bully situation. So, if I go from that, females don't get along with males. 
Again, as I stated from the beginning, I'm not saying there isn't something to it, but several people saying, "boy my two girls didn't get along", doesn't convience me.
When I quite my job I'll read 15 pages deep on Google and see if I can find some studies I'm hearing about.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

In the end, it depends on the dogs involved, male/female whatever,,you get two bossy pushy dogs no matter the gender your gonna have fights. 

There are some dogs that just don't like other dogs, (just like people),,it does seem however, there are MORE fights between females , who fight for blood, than males who I have found, to be more 'bluffers'..

They don't call them 'bitches' for nothing


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

Im hoping it works. We will just have to see when we get them together. My girl is very passive and from what I have heard from Melinda angel is too. I'm getting excited even though it's about a year away. If it does not work then it does not. But I will never know if we don't try.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Lenny - 


> How can you tell if two dogs just got in a fight/don't get along or if it's a f/f thing?


Bear with me a minute while I type and try to describe what it is I see, re: the f-f thing.

Say you have a bratty girl or whatever, my Libs needs to be the "big cheese", she is a Princess through and through. A dog like that. Prima donna, head honcho, Queen "B" or whatever. Libby thinks she's people, I swear. She's better than the other dogs somehow, in her opinion. 

Okay - so then you bring in another dog, a girl. And of course sooner or later someone steps on Libby's toes and there's a fight. 
Well, the boys tend to go off and lick their wounds, either imagined or real, and get back to being buds again.

The difference is, boys will tend to forgive and forget, while girls...watch out!! I mean more often than with boys, the girls will take that grudge to the grave.

I'd say that Libby has gotten into tiffs with just about everyone here at some point, but the boys are like, Okay, whatever, while the girls - nooo there's no going back with the girls. They are the best at laying in wait (like my example with Libby and the Chihuahua) and getting even when you least expect it, or when your back is turned.
Girls _plot_. 
Boys just go off, have a beer, shake it off, and be buds again!!!
And this goes for humans as much as for dogs!! 

So the difference (to me, what I've seen anyway) is that girls and boys both have disagreements, but it changes drastically, how girls will interact with one another in the future. 
Some boys react this way too, but it happens more often, for the negative, with girls.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> BTW, until you've lived with and dealt with female-female aggression, I don't think you really understand it.
> 
> I have a 9yr. old spayed female, and have 3 other girls in my home. For the most part they have easy-going personalities or they'd have never been able to live with my 9yr. old "queen B" Libby.
> But one day, the Basset got into it with my Libby and it was a nightmare. I could barely get them apart. Well, we did but they kept going back at it. The Basset wound up injured and now she doesn't even _look _at Libby.
> ...


I am the one currently having to re-home my female GSD because of female-to-female aggression and I can tell you right now, I have never been through worse with my dogs. We adopted Sasha when she was about 2 years old and her and my other female got along fine for about the first 4-5 months and then one day on an off leash walk, "boom," there's blood everywhere and I was lucky enough that my boyfriend was there to help get them apart. It has only escalated since then despite our best efforts. I would highly advise against bringing in another female, especially shepherd, and especially an adult. Oh, and both Sasha and Scarlett are CGC certified. All it means now is that they walk well on our on leash walks together...


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

To add to my last post however, they are both "head honcho" types as Jakoda put it. I would just make sure that you pay extra close attention to their interactions before you decide to adopt momma. I can see why she's appealing though!!  Good luck but please use your head and "dog smarts" before you fall in love with her... that's the mistake I made and now the dogs and myself are paying for it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yeah, but a lot of us would find it rather interesting - regarding SSA specifically. 

btw- while I'm not arguing against the observations posted here one still should be cautious with generalizations.

For instance (a possiblity) that more people own females then males so that would skew perceptions. Or average pet owners are more cautious with the males because they assume (as many do) that males would be more aggressive.

I'm kind of a science nerd tho....so maybe it's just me. Live Long and Prosper  





msvette2u said:


> Most of us didn't need studies to show us what we already know. But that said,
> 
> Google
> 
> ...


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

sashadog said:


> To add to my last post however, they are both "head honcho" types as Jakoda put it. I would just make sure that you pay extra close attention to their interactions before you decide to adopt momma. I can see why she's appealing though!!  Good luck but please use your head and "dog smarts" before you fall in love with her... that's the mistake I made and now the dogs and myself are paying for it.


Thanks. I will be cautious before we do anything. And I'm almost certain of they did not get along Melinda will participate in relocating her. But mamma sure is an eye full. I hope all goes well cause I would hate to get her home and it not work. But I honestly think it is worth the shot! I will keep you guys updated when we go meet them thanksgiving weekend.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

For those who have/had f/f get along great also don't need studies to tell them what they already know. That it more times than not depends on the dog.

OP: Go slow, be cautious and prepared and see how it goes. Good luck!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> Most of us didn't need studies to show us what we already know......
> It's not breed specific I don't believe.


EXACTLY!!!!!

I don't need studies, I have LIVED with females that wanted to kill eachother! And they weren't all GSDs either, besides the GSD, there was a Siberian Husky, a German Shorthaired Pointer, and a Chow/Golden Retriever mix. All were well trained. Some were even titled. (And I don't mean a CGC.)


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Tell me.

Why does the experience of those who have f/f aggression have more weight than those who have f/f no aggression. Esp. since there seems to be no evidence proving either way? Sorry but, burden of proof is not on me cause I'm not trying to prove anything so I wont be clicking on any generic google links that anyone can do. Unless someone has some actual studies, no one can really back up their claims except via opinions.

Just saying, food for thought.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

> Currently we have Dia and my roommate has a female Chihuahua named corona. Corona will go up to dia, steal her toy and dia will just think of it as playing. Corona will even growl at my girl and dia is like, whatever... she has never been agressive to Corona. just kinda thinks of it as are you playing with me.. she will wag her tail and shove a toy in coronas face if corona starts to be agressive.
> 
> also this is what melinda just sent me
> 
> "I'm not too worried about Angel getting along with Dia. I do not have my un-spayed girls together, as they will get in to it. But Angel is the best of all of them. She can be out with my young females Edge (1 yr. old) and Nikki (7 mon.) and Angel always did just fine with my older spayed female I lost last year. It's just the intact factor. And she has never had any issue with any of my males or Border Collies. The only fight she's ever been in here is with Razzy and Razzy is the instigator in all of that. "


First paragraph is your set up and the second is hers right?

Will the female Chi also be there as well? Then there's three females, which can work, but also cannot work - depending. 

I think most dogs of our type hit their stride in terms of tolerating others of the same sex around 3.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Well I had a female German Shepherd kill my other female Shepherd who had always gotten along great, the female who was killed was very submissive, and the female who killed her gets along fine with all my males, even the little Chihuahua and the little terrier males push her around, but the minute the young female became a young adult, she was simply a threat, it's been 3 years since that horrible day and no problems at all.... till I adopted a female Cairn Terrier and not 3 days later they were at each other and the Cairn was not backing down, since that day they are NEVER together again, you better believe it is a female thing, there are breeders here with multiple dogs and all bring many years of knowledge and experience to the table, to ignore these facts from experts is plain foolish and just because it hasn't happened to you to dismiss the advice could lead to heartache in the future.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

LARHAGE said:


> Well I had a female German Shepherd kill my other female Shepherd who had always gotten along great, the female who was killed was very submissive, and the female who killed her gets along fine with all my males, even the little Chihuahua and the little terrier males push her around, but the minute the young female became a young adult, she was simply a threat, it's been 3 years since that horrible day and no problems at all.... till I adopted a female Cairn Terrier and not 3 days later they were at each other and the Cairn was not backing down, since that day they are NEVER together again, you better believe it is a female thing, there are breeders here with multiple dogs and all bring many years of knowledge and experience to the table, to ignore these facts from experts is plain foolish and just because it hasn't happened to you to dismiss the advice could lead to heartache in the future.



No offense to anyone who are breeders. I know there are lots of people here who are have lots of experience, but that doesn't negate the fact that it may or may not mean anything. This is also an internet forum where people can say anything behind a screen. There are also going to be lots of "experts". 

No one is saying to ignore anything anyways. Just that you can't go by opinion alone. This is only a small group of people on the net (including everyone, not just breeders) compared to world wide.

I have had my fair share of dogs, f/f/m/m combos, etc. Just because I am not a breeder doesn't mean im talking out my A and just because someone IS a breeder doesn't mean they know jack diddle squat. (I speak in general terms). I mean heck, there was a long standing member on here who people would have lumped in with the ones to listen to, and look how that turned out.


AGAIN, OP: Be careful, be cautious, be aware. Like many others, you could never have any problems. Or like many others, there might be. I haven't seen ANYONE tell you to IGNORE anything.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

the reason one experience has more weight than the other (people who have experienced f/f aggression with their dogs -vs- those who haven't), is because the consequences are so severe. and so unpredictable.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

katieliz said:


> the reason one experience has more weight than the other (people who have experienced f/f aggression with their dogs -vs- those who haven't), is because the consequences are so severe. and so unpredictable.



I'm not talking about those have have NO experience. I'm talking about those who have experience on both sides. IE: One person has experience that two F were aggressive, One person has experience where two F were never aggressive.

Both bring their opinions to the table, both are valid.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Absolutely both are valid. But good to understand the severity of potential consequences. 

That they aren't little consequences. That's all people are trying to stress.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Absolutely both are valid. But good to understand the severity of potential consequences.
> 
> That they aren't little consequences. That's all people are trying to stress.



Oh no, I agree 100%, my point is that some people seem to have it set in their heads that there is ONLY one way. Nothing should be gone into blindly and I haven't seen anyone say that consequences of any action shouldn't be looked at. Be cautious, be aware, be prepared.

Some people seem to take exception to the opinion that f/f dog homes can work out just fine. No one ever said to ignore anything.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I have given both sides of the issue, I have girls who get along and one girl who won't. It depends on the situation.
The issue people are trying to drive home is that it doesn't even matter if the girls got along for 2 or even 3 years, if it happens, it's going to happen in a big and often really bad way.
Don't get too complacent with "oh, my girls always get along". 
Because they do. Until they don't anymore.
Oh, and just because girl A gets along with girl B, doesn't mean they'll all be fine with girl C. Or if girl A or B passes away and you bring in girl D to the mix. 
You just really never know and the dynamics always change.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

<sigh>

People shouldn't get to complacent with people saying "they will never get along either". Then a dog may loose an otherwise awesome home. Some people have dogs that never get along, some people have dogs that get along their whole life until they die. THAT is what some people were trying to drive home. Don't pass up on something that could be a wonderful thing based only on "what ifs". Blindly walking away from something is just as bad as blindly walking into something, IMO.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Where did I say don't get her??

Get her, by all means, but be aware that the potential is there. And never leave them unattended. 
That's all I've said all along, if you actually would read my posts and not react.
Complacency is never a good thing.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Uh, I said "people". I didn't point anyone out. , cause thats not what I am doing. I just did a spin off of words lol.

ETA: spin off of words, both times*


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Okay...well the way your post is worded makes it seem as if I've said something that upset you, especially when you start off with <sigh>


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

msvette2u said:


> Okay...well the way your post is worded makes it seem as if I've said something that upset you, especially when you start off with <sigh>



No no. Its just been one of those nights. Heck, its been one of those weeks! I've been editing my posts and rewriting them left and right because none of them seem to be coming out right tonight.

I need a drink. Or sleep. Or both!

ETA: Not at the same time!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LOL I have those days but it's usually AMs for me, before my coffee 
Thanks for the clarification.

I wish we all had crystal balls with regards to our dogs but unfortunately we don't, most the time we're just winging it


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

I'm curious as to if there are going to be issues with Dia and the Chi when Dia is an adult. Many times when the puppy reaches adulthood, THAT is when they start having an issue with the older dog "bossing them around".


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Hey, I use to have one of those. Granted, it was sitting in a shelf collecting dust before it got knocked over and broke....oddly enough, by the dog. :wild:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ah the closest I've come is a Magic 8 ball LOL


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I've witnessed both. A fellow petcare friend of mine recently witnessed a male Aussie attack a Pittie, both males. The Aussie (not the pittie) started it and the Aussie wanted to finish it too.

Dog fights are horrible events to witness, no matter breed/sex of the dogs engaged in the battle.

For some reason though, I tend to remember the F/F fights more, I must admit.

Good posts GSDolch.



GSDolch said:


> I'm not talking about those have have NO experience. I'm talking about those who have experience on both sides. IE: One person has experience that two F were aggressive, One person has experience where two F were never aggressive.
> 
> Both bring their opinions to the table, both are valid.


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## GSDBESTK9 (Mar 26, 2002)

I've had 3 females live in harmony BUT they were all spayed at a young age (around 5 -6 months old) and they were all Back-yard-breed and had no dominant personalities, no drives, no nothing.

Now I have working line bitches (like the one the original poster wants to adopt) and given the chance these 3 females WILL fight with each other till one of them is dead! Either one of the 3 are fine with young pups or males but another adult female is another story!

It doesn't matter if she is going to get spayed, that will not change anything!!! It will not change her personality one bit!

Yes, there is a small chance that these 2 will get along, but I hope you are prepared to be able to keep them separated for the rest of their lives if need be. Specially once the younger one start challenging the older one.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

juliejujubean said:


> My little girls mom will be up for adoption. She is 500 plus spaying here at home and I have to either get her or ship her. She is 5 years old and will be available in dec 2012 after her last breeding. I have not met her yet but her pups are wonderful. She is full DDR and has a cgc and bh.
> I will be going to wisconsin to go introduce the two first. Im so nervous cause she is full grown and has bonded with the breeder... but she sure is wonderful!
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful dog that is for sure.

but please don't call this an adoption. She's for sale. 500 bucks plus a spay, plus transportation??? sorry, that's a dog for sale.

Sorry, because a breeder may run out of use and wants to find the dog a new home at a price lower than what they paid for her, it's not an adoption. It's a sale.

I try not to get too hung up on words, but this one of my pet peeves 

I've had two females in the past. But always as an older dog 5 or 6 and introduce a new puppy. There were always some minor issues, but nothing that sent anyone to the vet.

I have 2 females now, both seperated only by less than 2 years. They get along great with other dogs, males or females. They do not get a long at all.

They can be out walking with me and be ok, if I keep their focus off each other. The second they're allowed to make eye contact or even look at the other one, it's on, and in a big way. No questions asked, just tear 'em up fight. It's not fun.

So I have 2 dogs in the house that are constantly rotated. Each a good working dog, very sweet to their family and other pets and dogs, but hate each other. With me, nothing terrible has happened, but I can see it being very bad in another situation.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> Tell me.
> 
> Why does the experience of those who have f/f aggression have more weight than those who have f/f no aggression. Esp. since there seems to be no evidence proving either way? Sorry but, burden of proof is not on me cause I'm not trying to prove anything so I wont be clicking on any generic google links that anyone can do. Unless someone has some actual studies, no one can really back up their claims except via opinions.
> 
> Just saying, food for thought.


 i have never seen a male and female fight in a household. I have seen some scuffles, but never a real fight. I have seen males fight, but not like i've seen 2 females living together fight. 

I can't show you, i don't stop to get a video camera during those times. I can't prove it to you. I hope you never have to witness it because it's a fight like no other.


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## Lenny (Jul 25, 2005)

crackem said:


> Beautiful dog that is for sure.
> 
> but please don't call this an adoption. She's for sale. 500 bucks plus a spay, plus transportation??? sorry, that's a dog for sale.
> 
> ...


 Really?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

crackem said:


> i have never seen a male and female fight in a household. I have seen some scuffles, but never a real fight. I have seen males fight, but not like i've seen 2 females living together fight.
> 
> I can't show you, i don't stop to get a video camera during those times. I can't prove it to you. I hope you never have to witness it because it's a fight like no other.


I have actually seen a male and a female in the same household fight, they were Dobermans though.


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## TimberGSD2 (Nov 8, 2011)

crackem said:


> Beautiful dog that is for sure.
> 
> but please don't call this an adoption. She's for sale. 500 bucks plus a spay, plus transportation??? sorry, that's a dog for sale.
> 
> ...


Thank you. That was really bugging me too!


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

crackem said:


> i have never seen a male and female fight in a household. I have seen some scuffles, but never a real fight. I have seen males fight, but not like i've seen 2 females living together fight.
> 
> I can't show you, i don't stop to get a video camera during those times. I can't prove it to you. I hope you never have to witness it because it's a fight like no other.



who says I HAVEN'T witnessed it?

Just because I say it can work doesn't mean I haven't had the experience of it not working. 

Way to jump to conclusions there, Without asking first. :thumbup:

ETA: as far as proof. I was talking about stats in regards of dog fights in the home, more of a scientific POV, not a "what has happened in my house hold" POV.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

crackem said:


> i have never seen a male and female fight in a household. I have seen some scuffles, but never a real fight. I have seen males fight, but not like i've seen 2 females living together fight.
> 
> I can't show you, i don't stop to get a video camera during those times. I can't prove it to you. I hope you never have to witness it because it's a fight like no other.


I agree totally with the difference between m/m fighting and f/f fighting. 

I have had a young male go rip open my older female. He also got into a scuffle with a male about a year older than he was -- no blood in that. 

But when females decide they hate each other, there is nothing to compare it to. It is like they see red and will not stop until one is dead. Separating them can be extremely dangerous to you as well, but the alternative is at least one dead bitch. Obviously, that is not EVERY female. 

I think with the m/f fight, if I would have stayed out of it, the female would have either kicked his tail and sent him screaming, or she would have become submissive and it would have been over. That just doesn't seem to happen in bitch fights. 

I have heard people advise people to let dogs work it out. I don't like that idea, but I think that males would probably determine the pecking order and be done with it. The stakes just seem to be higher with females.

Not all females fight or hate each other. Arwen HATED Jasmine. I expect God has them separated up there because if they saw each other now I think they would go at it. Arwen disliked Jenna. Jenna was the more bouncy, the more energetic of the two females in her first litter. Only when Arwen was pregnant or had a litter, would she actually go after Jenna though. But Arwen got along great with Babs, even when she was pregnant, had puppies, Babs was no threat whatsoever. 

Arwen and Dubya got along wonderfully. But when she had her first litter, she gave him one look, and he stayed far away from the box. After about a week, she let him come closer and peer into the box. By three weeks she was fine with him around the puppies. She never growled or snapped or showed her teeth at him, it was all just eye contact. I don't know if you can tell those dynamics on a video, you almost have to be there. 

I would probably pass on bringing a mother in where I have the daughter already established, unless I was totally comfortable with keeping them totally separated forever.

One of the most gruesome things that HSUS, PETA, and the AR activists have done is to add terminology for rescues/shelters that is positive and breeders negative. You rescue from a shelter, you adopt from a rescue, you buy from a breeder. And somehow there is a lot of negative connotations to the buying of a family member. It is a bunch of huey if you ask me. In all three instances you are exchanging cash for a good or service, in this case a dog, which makes it a purchase, which means you are buying it. There is nothing wrong with that. You are grafting in a member to your family, if you want to call that adoption feel free. 

My sister paid a whole lot more than $500 plus shipping to bring her daughters home, and they are certainly adopted.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with giving it a try as long as there is some backup plan of returning the dog or careful management if it doesn't work out.

That said, I think the main concern regarding the bitch fights is that at least from people I know who have experienced it, once it happens everything changes. My boys have their occasional snark or squabble but it's usually because of something or over something. I don't have to worry that they genuinely will not stand for each others' presence just because. I've never owned two females (in part for this very reason) but from what I've heard, the bitches will be best friends one day and then literally at each others' jugulars the next and cannot be trusted with each other from then on out.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

crackem said:


> but please don't call this an adoption. She's for sale. 500 bucks plus a spay, plus transportation??? sorry, that's a dog for sale.


Some of the rescues around here charge that much for purebred dogs, especially if they are under a year old.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> Some of the rescues around here charge that much for purebred dogs, especially if they are under a year old.


I know they do, and I don't call them rescues either. They're dog brokers


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

GSDolch said:


> who says I HAVEN'T witnessed it?
> 
> Just because I say it can work doesn't mean I haven't had the experience of it not working.
> 
> ...


 huh?

what conclusion did I jump to? and what does this have to do with what you've witnessed? and why would I have to ask you anything?

I wasn't offering my view as the definitive proof. I have also lived with 2 females living together just fine.

I was simply offering up my experience that while same sex dogs can and do get along just fine all the time, and all sorts of mixes of fights can occur, none of them reach the level of ferocity and downright scariness in the moment of two bitches that want to kill each other.

I don't know that they fight more than 2 males or males females, or fixed or not. I've seen plenty of squabbles, skirmishes, and fights of all sorts over the years. I can handle pretty much all of them. I do hope to never have to break up a fight with 2 bitches intent on killing each other again.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

crackem said:


> huh?
> 
> what conclusion did I jump to? and what does this have to do with what you've witnessed? and why would I have to ask you anything?
> 
> ...



Your quote was to one of my posts. Makes sense to me that it was directed to me.

If not then my apologizes.



> I can't show you, i don't stop to get a video camera during those times. I can't prove it to you. * I hope you never have to witness it* because it's a fight like no other.


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

yeah I did quote you, you had asked why those with f/f aggression issues counted more than those that didn't have f/f aggression issues.

I pointed out that all sorts of dynamics have aggression issues, but in my experience, none have come close to the level of 2 females **** bent on killing each other. I didn't say there were more, i was right, you were wrong. I was stating they were different as I have never seen anything like them between other dog dynamics. And I hope I never do.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think one of the main reasons that f/f problems "count" more than lack of problems is that the consequences are so dire (re: injuries, etc.) but also it leaves owners with the question "NOW what", when it occurs.

It's very devastating and often leaves one of the girls ultimately homeless, the impact of that is up to multiple people at times, other times, it's not. In the OP's case, apparently the breeder will take the dog back, but it's upheaval, even in the best of scenarios.

It'd be one thing if the owner, being made aware of the potential for f/f aggression issues, was prepared to keep both dogs forever, but most aren't equipped to handle the problem, or just figure it won't happen to them. The kind people here, knowing the impact and implications of f/f aggression, are trying their best to make sure that nobody overlooks or poo-poos the potential for it to occur.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> As I said before, it's easy to poo-poo the phenomenon until you've experienced it yourself.


I admit I did not read the entire thread, stopped at the above quote.... In my humble experience, with two non-GSD bitches spayed young, it has been difficult. It was very difficult for a good six to ten? months. Never allowed alone together. Constant nit picking, growling, issues. 

Somehow, someway, it came together. They are alone together during the workday and eat and drink together. BUT with the new pup in the picture, it has thrown off the balance and I've broken up 2 or 3 fights between the two girls, when we'd had some years of total harmony.


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## brembo (Jun 30, 2009)

I had a BC/GSD mix years ago. She was a sweet and loving mutt that liked anything and everything with one exception....other female dogs that were interested in me. 

I could leave her with male dogs and it was all sunshine and lollipops. If another female dog so much as looked at me, the blood flew, literally. She took off a rather large hunk off a very expensive and very much loved BC that I was dog-sitting (her sire was the national frisbee champ). This happened in about a billionth of a second while I was switching them from enclosures. BCs are quick animals, angry BCs are in a league of their own when it comes to speed and agility. I grabbed my dog and tossed her bodily as hard as I could, she hit the ground running and was back on the other dog before I recovered from the toss. I'm 6-ish feet tall and weigh 200 pounds, I ride motocross and I'm not "delicate", yet a 50 pound BC made me feel weak. I do not think I could handle a 80 pound P.O.'ed GSD.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

and i have no statistics to back this up, but i suspect the potential for it to happen is greater than the potential for it to not. that maybe when it doesn't, it's more the exception and not the rule. 

for sure tho, if you go into it with your eyes open, properly equipped for breaking up fights, and with a good, strong back-up plan in case you just can't make it work...at least you'll be prepared. wishing you good luck and safety for all.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Another problem is that it may not start right away. Or it may not start for a year or two. It may be just fine until the neighbors move in with an intact male. It may be trouble from the git-go. And maybe one day, the younger one walks past the older one and bumps a hip just so and WWIII happens. 

I can go from zero to bitch in .38 seconds is no lie. 

Leaving adult females unsupervised together is a gamble.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I can't believe I read this whole thing. I have nothing to offer with regard to the female aggression deal. 
What I find interesting is that people sincerely gave it their best to a thread titled, "Should I get her mom?" and since I read it from start to finish I wonder why the OP asked. Almost all her posts after the first one indicate that she is going to get this dog. Unless they have a huge fight at the breeders place. Why ask questions if you are not going to listen. If I had gotten the advice that was given in this thread it would not be worth the risk to me. There are too many really nice dogs out there to worry about the risk associated with this one.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

LOL I got the impression it was just to show off the mom, and yeah, she's going to get her anyway.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> LOL I got the impression it was just to show off the mom, and yeah, she's going to get her anyway.


msevette2u:

I think for $500.00 for what will be a six yr. old dog I'll bet you could find her a pure bred rescue. 

It is a nice dog and I do wish her good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have no problem with the price tag, that depends on the dog's breeding, and training, and health -- was it given a physical, how are hips and elbows, heartworm? etc. $500 isn't much for a clean bill of health, even on an older dog. 

And going to a breeder/rescue -- retired bitches might enjoy a regular family type life too, where they are the center of a family's universe rather than just one of the non-producers in a breeder's pack. 

My only issue is the female-female thing that can either work out or be a nightmare. 

Hope it works out. 

I highly doubt most people go into this sort of thing with the wherewithal to separate them forever if it comes to that.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

For $500 I'd recommend, in fact, she get a younger boy rescue 
And the neuter would be included!


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

and oh, the wherewithal to separate them forever is HARD. and a lifetime (their lifetime) commitment. lots and lots and lots of work and worry, not to mention the cost of gates, crates, fencing and outfitting the "dog room". not a situation i chose or certainly ever would choose to be in again.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We've had it with smaller rescue dogs and it's really a hassle, that was short term but still a constant worry depending on the dog(s) in question.


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## juliejujubean (May 4, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> First paragraph is your set up and the second is hers right?
> 
> Will the female Chi also be there as well? Then there's three females, which can work, but also cannot work - depending.
> 
> I think most dogs of our type hit their stride in terms of tolerating others of the same sex around 3.


the femal chi will not be with us... she moves out in end of july and we do not get angel until december of that year, so it will just be dia and angel.


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