# German Shepherd vs White German Shepherd vs White Swiss Shepherd



## mehpenn

Is the White German Shepherd, the same as the White Swiss Shepherd? And would that (those) breeds technically be a different coat variety as the German Shepherd Dog recognized today? Kind of like ASCOB, Black and Parti colored Cockers? Or Paint Horses vs Quarter Horses?


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## Mary Beth

In the GSD standard , the white coat color is not acceptable. The way I understand it is that since the GSD was to be a working dog, a white coat would stand out at night and the dog would be a target for the enemy. So the white shepherds are not GSDs. Hopefully others will reply and explain if there are other differences.


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## shepherdmom

Not GSD's??? I don't think that is correct. White Shepherds are just as much GSD's as are blues and any other coat color that isn't allowed to compete. They are still GSD's just not allowed to compete in the show ring. As far as I know they can still compete in everything else.


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## mehpenn

It's confusing to me... I've read where the White Swiss Shepherd is linked to the German Shepherd, and the White German Shepherd lost acceptance under Hitler's rule in Germany.... but what I've read kind of talks in circles, so I'm not finding an out-right answer. Of course I've been having to read in spurts, so I could be missing something.


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## Whiteshepherds

White German Shepherd Dog - The color white is caused by a recessive masking gene introduced into the breed from the very beginning. White coated German Shepherds can be registered with the AKC as German Shepherd Dogs. The disqualifying fault for the color white means the dogs can't be shown in the conformation ring but they are allowed to take part in all other AKC events. (obedience, agility etc.)

White Swiss Shepherd also known as the White Shepherd and Berger Blanc Suisse. Not recognized by the AKC but recognized by the UKC and the FCI. Shares a common ancestry with the white coated GSD but is bred to a different standard. 

Breeders who support recognition for the White Shepherd in the AKC (and CKC) typically refer to their dogs as White Shepherds or White Swiss Shepherds even if they're still being registered as GSD's. Breeders who produce white coated German Shepherd Dogs call them GSD's or White German Shepherds.


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## Chicagocanine

Where does "Swiss" come into it, is what I am curious about.


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## Sunflowers

Very informative and long article
White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd


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## Whiteshepherds

The Berger Blanc Suisse (White Swiss Shepherd) parent club in Switzerland is given credit for establishing the new breed in the FCI and they got to pick the breed name. I would guess they're proud of their accomplishments and their country, hence the word "Swiss".


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## Mrs.K

shepherdmom said:


> Not GSD's??? I don't think that is correct. White Shepherds are just as much GSD's as are blues and any other coat color that isn't allowed to compete. They are still GSD's just not allowed to compete in the show ring. As far as I know they can still compete in everything else.


No they are not GSD's. No matter what you say, the SV will NOT and NEVER recognize the white coat. That is why they are Berger Blanc Suisse, the White Swiss Shepherd Dog! In order for them to be accepted, they must be the Swiss Shepherd. It's better that way. So to me, there is no such thing as the White German Shepherd. There is a white Shepherd, a White Swiss Shepherd and the Berger Blanc Suisse but there is NEVER a white German Shepherd!

The AKC is the only registry accepted by the FCI, so it's time that the AKC should actually recognize the Berger Blanc Suisse, like the rest of the world. 

People should get a grip and finally come to terms with that!


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## Whiteshepherds

Sunflowers said:


> Very informative and long article
> White German Shepherd Dog Club of America, Inc. || The Breed || White German Shepherd Dog vs. White Shepherd


Information about when the whites were disqualified from the ring can be found on the AWSA website on this page, down along the right hand side. History of the White Shepherd, American White Shepherd Association Not sure why the WGSDCA says the information isn't available, it was printed in the GSD Review.


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## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> No they are not GSD's. No matter what you say, the SV will NOT and NEVER recognize the white coat. That is why they are Berger Blanc Suisse, the White Swiss Shepherd Dog! In order for them to be accepted, they must be the Swiss Shepherd. It's better that way. So to me, there is no such thing as the White German Shepherd. There is a white Shepherd, a White Swiss Shepherd and the Berger Blanc Suisse but there is NEVER a white German Shepherd!
> 
> The AKC is the only registry accepted by the FCI, so it's time that the AKC should actually recognize the Berger Blanc Suisse, like the rest of the world.
> 
> People should get a grip and finally come to terms with that!


You know I really have no idea who the SV is and I really don't give a flying you know what. I had a White German Shepherd Dog. So they exist and she was exactly like all my other German Shepherd Dogs except her coat was white. You can pretend all you like that they are another breed and you can call them whatever the heck you want. I really don't care. I know what I had... and that was a German Shepherd dog who happened to have a white coat. To call them anything else is retarded and all these stupid registry this title that rules and infighting is what scares pet people like me away. So instead we got our White German Shepherd dog out of the newspaper and even with her HD she was the best dog that ever lived and was better than all your fancy titled ugly show dogs.


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## Lilie

shepherdmom said:


> To call them anything else is *retarded* and all these stupid registry this title that rules and infighting is what scares pet people like me away.


On a side note; Please show a little respect for others on this board and not utilize words such as bolded above.


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## Mrs.K

shepherdmom said:


> You know I really have no idea who the SV is and I really don't give a flying you know what. I had a White German Shepherd Dog. So they exist and she was exactly like all my other German Shepherd Dogs except her coat was white. You can pretend all you like that they are another breed and you can call them whatever the heck you want. I really don't care. I know what I had... and that was a German Shepherd dog who happened to have a white coat. To call them anything else is retarded and all these stupid registry this title that rules and infighting is what scares pet people like me away. So instead we got our White German Shepherd dog out of the newspaper and even with her HD she was the best dog that ever lived and was better than all your fancy titled ugly show dogs.


Well... maybe do a little research on the Breed and find out what the SV is and you will see that the SV is VERY important since without Max von Stephanitz there wouldn't be an SV and without the SV there wouldn't be a German Shepherd! 

Since I seem to be retarded I leave further research to you. 

Also, since the White Shepherd is not recognized by the SV/VDH/FCI as a German Shepherd, having them recognized as Berger Blanc Suisse IS A GOOD THING and many people have fought to achieve recognition so do not belittle their effort and success. Having the breed recognized by the FCI IS a big deal and it is NOT retarded either!

And yeah... my dogs are super ugly Show Dogs indeed..


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## DWP

*Huh?*

I have researched both sides of the argument and although I am in agreement with one, I do not see the need to make statements that are derrogatory or inflamatory to the others. Each and everyone of us has a common love of the GSD. Let's remember that. It is arguments like these that turn folks off.


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## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> Well... maybe do a little research on the Breed and find out what the SV is and you will see that the SV is VERY important since without Max von Stephanitz there wouldn't be an SV and without the SV there wouldn't be a German Shepherd!
> 
> Since I seem to be retarded I leave further research to you.
> 
> Also, since the White Shepherd is not recognized by the SV/VDH/FCI as a German Shepherd, having them recognized as Berger Blanc Suisse IS A GOOD THING and many people have fought to achieve recognition so do not belittle their effort and success. Having the breed recognized by the FCI IS a big deal and it is NOT retarded either!
> 
> And yeah... my dogs are super ugly Show Dogs indeed..


Wow you totally missed the whole point of my post. I was trying to be funny, Apparently it didn't work.  I'm sure you love your ugly show dogs just as much as I loved my White German Shepherd Dog. 

As a pet person, I don't want to research dogs. I don't want to worry about whatever fancy name you call them. I just want a dog. This whole show world makes it too complicated, which is what is happening. Things like this only turn off pet people and since pet people are the ones mostly buying dogs, I would think that AKC and all the other registries would get their acts together and quit all the infighting and the backstabbing. Pet people want a puppy not a homework assignment. Personally knowing the little I do, I'd want a Berger Blanc Suisse because they are not yet on the banned breed list but are the same dog anyway.


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## Mrs.K

People should move forward instead of being stuck in the past. The rest of the world has accepted the Berger Blanc Suisse and he was first recognized in Switzerland and registered in Switzerland for a reason. http://www.berger-blanc-international.com/#FCI - Breeder


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## shepherdmom

Lilie said:


> On a side note; Please show a little respect for others on this board and not utilize words such as bolded above.


Rolling eyes big time. Lighten up people. I'm not pc, I'm not ever going to be pc as far as I'm aware that word is not on the banned word list yet. :crazy:


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## DWP

*Question*

Mrs. K,

I am in no way trying to be obstinant or create a conflict, but I do have a question. If two registerred Black and Red GSD's are bred and the litter of seven pup produces two white ones, are they GSD's? Is the contention that they should not be GSD's. I understand the confirmation, and thought they were GSD's, but could not be shown. Again I mean no disrespect and am not wanting to be a problem, I am curious as to what the position is of the SV. 

Thanks


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## Lilie

shepherdmom said:


> Rolling eyes big time. Lighten up people. I'm not pc, I'm not ever going to be pc as far as I'm aware that word is not on the banned word list yet. :crazy:


No worries. I only asked for a little respect for those on the board who have mentally challenged family members. I understand if you're incapable of doing so.


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## jessac

DWP said:


> I have researched both sides of the argument and although I am in agreement with one, I do not see the need to make statements that are derrogatory or inflamatory to the others. Each and everyone of us has a common love of the GSD. Let's remember that. It is arguments like these that turn folks off.


True, I'm pretty new to this board and have a WGSD. I do sometimes feel that whites aren't quite as "likeable" here. We all have our favorite coloring, so why exclude people? From my understanding, the WGSD is genetically the same to a colored (just iwth the recessive coat) and the other names are to get it a place in the show ring, but I could be wrong.


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## Mrs.K

DWP said:


> Mrs. K,
> 
> I am in no way trying to be obstinant or create a conflict, but I do have a question. If two registerred Black and Red GSD's are bred and the litter of seven pup produces two white ones, are they GSD's? Is the contention that they should not be GSD's. I understand the confirmation, and thought they were GSD's, but could not be shown. Again I mean no disrespect and am not wanting to be a problem, I am curious as to what the position is of the SV.
> 
> Thanks


It's not only that they cannot be shown, they cannot be registered or listed, period. They are not accepted at all and as far as the Club is concerned, the white German Shepherd does not exist.
Personally I do not know of any cases. It doesn't mean they are not out there but personally I have not ever met a breeder that had a case of a white shepherd being born out of his breeding. Long-Stock coat, yeah, even Long Coat but I have not seen a white Shepherd.


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## mehpenn

DWP said:


> Mrs. K,
> 
> I am in no way trying to be obstinant or create a conflict, but I do have a question. If two registerred Black and Red GSD's are bred and the litter of seven pup produces two white ones, are they GSD's? Is the contention that they should not be GSD's. I understand the confirmation, and thought they were GSD's, but could not be shown. Again I mean no disrespect and am not wanting to be a problem, I am curious as to what the position is of the SV.
> 
> Thanks


IF the AKC were to recognize the Berger Blanc Suisse, then at that point, COULD/SHOULD the German Shepherd Dog world follow the same method the AQHA and APHA did with horses? 
For example (in case non-horse people are reading this) The American Quarter Horse Association changed their accepted color standard for registered horses, and because so many foals were produced that no longer met the AQHA standard, but some people really like the excessive white, the American Paint Horse Association was formed, and those foals were automatically accepted for registration in the newly formed APHA, because both parents were registered, and they'd produced a foal that no longer met the parent's registry requirements, but met the new registry requirements. (Sorry I know that's all running together....)

We've had numerous Paint horses that's lineage was the same, within a generation, as our Quarter Horses.

So, Should the AKC begin accepting the Berger Blanc Suisse dog, could they not, then, follow the horse world, and allow WHITE puppies produced from two standard meeting, registered parents, to be registered as Berger Blanc Suisse dogs?
OR perhaps, like mentioned before, with the Cocker Spaniel, the standard could be re-written to include a different vairety? The "Standard" and the "White."

I think either of those options would be good, and allow all dogs produced to earn the same level of respect.


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## shepherdmom

** comment removed by ADMIN. Comment totally uncalled for, insulting and confrontational**

Anyway I'm off to get my Wiggles spayed. No puppies of any color for us.  Have a good day.


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## jessac

Mrs.K said:


> It's not only that they cannot be shown, they cannot be registered or listed, period. They are not accepted at all and as far as the Club is concerned, the white German Shepherd does not exist.
> Personally I do not know of any cases. It doesn't mean they are not out there but personally I have not ever met a breeder that had a case of a white shepherd being born out of his breeding. Long-Stock coat, yeah, even Long Coat but I have not seen a white Shepherd.


I know that a WGSD can't be shown, but I do have papers for mine. He's registered as a GSD in the AKC. Of course, the color is a fault, but they can be registered. 

I am a pet person, so I don't know what "listed" means, though.


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## FlyAway

According to this from the AKC website, it looks like the AKC isn't going to be admitting Berger Blanc Swiss dogs anytime soon. 

"The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards."


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## Mrs.K

mehpenn said:


> IF the AKC were to recognize the Berger Blanc Suisse, then at that point, COULD/SHOULD the German Shepherd Dog world follow the same method the AQHA and APHA did with horses?
> For example (in case non-horse people are reading this) The American Quarter Horse Association changed their accepted color standard for registered horses, and because so many foals were produced that no longer met the AQHA standard, but some people really like the excessive white, the American Paint Horse Association was formed, and those foals were automatically accepted for registration in the newly formed APHA, because both parents were registered, and they'd produced a foal that no longer met the parent's registry requirements, but met the new registry requirements. (Sorry I know that's all running together....)
> 
> We've had numerous Paint horses that's lineage was the same, within a generation, as our Quarter Horses.
> 
> So, Should the AKC begin accepting the Berger Blanc Suisse dog, could they not, then, follow the horse world, and allow WHITE puppies produced from two standard meeting, registered parents, to be registered as Berger Blanc Suisse dogs?
> OR perhaps, like mentioned before, with the Cocker Spaniel, the standard could be re-written to include a different vairety? The "Standard" and the "White."
> 
> I think either of those options would be good, and allow all dogs produced to earn the same level of respect.


Not confusing at all to me. I think that is an excellent Idea to have them automatically registered as Berger Blanc Suisse. 

For a long time they actually had to have them registered as American/Canadian White Shepherd because the Berger Blanc Suisse didn't exist back then and they had no other way to get them registered and I still remember them being called as "Kanadischer Weisser Schaeferhund" (Canadian White Shepherd) rather than German Shepherd.


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## Lilie

**Deleted post removed so no reason for the comment. **


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## DWP

*Thanks*

Thanks Mrs. K. I have only seen this once as well.


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## GoSailGo

FlyAway said:


> According to this from the AKC website, it looks like the AKC isn't going to be admitting Berger Blanc Swiss dogs anytime soon.


Thats unfortunate. My breeder told me there was some progress this year on getting white swiss shepherds recognized with the AKC, but I'm not sure what that is.


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## Mrs.K

jessac said:


> I know that a WGSD can't be shown, but I do have papers for mine. He's registered as a GSD in the AKC. Of course, the color is a fault, but they can be registered.
> 
> I am a pet person, so I don't know what "listed" means, though.


That is because the AKC and the CKC are the only breed registries that registers them as white German Shepherd Dogs.


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## mehpenn

So, let me ask this, and maybe someone here can clarify for me. 
The bull terrier has two varieties, the White and the Colored. The cocker spaniel has ASCOB, black and party.... why could they not do the same for German Shepherds?
It these breeds were listed separately, can I assume that at some point there's a reason behind it? Was one not accepted, then was accepted? It everything is the same but the coat color/pattern... then why could they not compete against each other all in one group?


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## FlyAway

GoSailGo said:


> Thats unfortunate. My breeder told me there was some progress this year on getting white swiss shepherds recognized with the AKC, but I'm not sure what that is.


I think there would be some hope if there is a large enough profit for the AKC. And being an FCI breed is also a plus. 

But, even something that seems simple enough, putting coat types on registrations papers has to go through a budget assessment. That particular item was voted down because there was a negative return on investment of about $200,000 associated with it.

If there was a large BBS breed club in the USA with a large number of dogs in the "studbook", then it could happen.


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## mehpenn

(Taboo maybe?) But doesn't the Continental Kennel Club have a separate listing for White German Shepherds?


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## Shaolin

Mrs.K said:


> It's not only that they cannot be shown, they cannot be registered or listed, period. They are not accepted at all and as far as the Club is concerned, the white German Shepherd does not exist.
> Personally I do not know of any cases. It doesn't mean they are not out there but personally I have not ever met a breeder that had a case of a white shepherd being born out of his breeding. Long-Stock coat, yeah, even Long Coat but I have not seen a white Shepherd.


They are registered in the AKC and listed through the AKC. When you register a WGSD, you register them as a GSD, then when it comes to asking coat color, you list them as white. When I was looking for a WGSD, there were two kennels that had a white pup drop from a "standard" paring, but one of those parings, the Dam had genes in her from an outcrossing breeding (I hope I used that term right) between a white and standard three generations back and the sire had the same thing four or five back. The other breeder was kind of shady anyways, so as far as I'm concerned, that was an oops anyways and I didn't look too far into it.

White GSDs must conform to the standard of a "normal" GSD for breeding and in shows that allow the WGSD. The only difference between my WGSD and a "normal" GSD is the coat color, period. I will admit, in the beginning, they were bred for color and nothing else. Now that there are a wealth of them out there, they are being bred for the show ring and they are being bred for working. They have their SLs and WLs the same way the standards do.

Yes, the AKC is not going to allow them in anytime in the near future and I'm okay with that. I'm not a show person and I'm definately not knocking anyone who is. There are enough show opportunities in the WGSD world that not being in the AKC shouldn't be an issue; I don't remember off the top of my head, but it's either the UKC or the good CKC that does the all around conformation instead of just "looking pretty" that WGSDs can enter and have won. There are also three different breed clubs for the WGSD that have their own shows across the country and into Canada.

I think that the WGSD should be allowed in the AKC conformation ring...whether under a different name or not, I'm not sure. I think that the WGSD should be able to hold true to their origins as a GSD, but if it makes the GSD purists happy, then fine, make it a different breed. The only problem with this is a lot of White breeders throw in a "standard" GSD every few generations for one reason or another (mostly because there are so few "working line" WGSDs they need to outsource those genes from somewhere...)

What needs to happen is the "purists" in the AKC and the "extremists" in the WGSD world need to retract their claws a bit and talk about it sensibly. I'm sure there's a compromise to be reached somwhere, but no one is willing to give up/share the name of German Shepherd...not saying I would want to either, but sometimes you have to put on your big girl panties and do crap you don't want to do.


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## Mrs.K

Shaolin said:


> They are registered in the AKC and listed through the AKC. When you register a WGSD, you register them as a GSD, then when it comes to asking coat color, you list them as white. When I was looking for a WGSD, there were two kennels that had a white pup drop from a "standard" paring, but one of those parings, the Dam had genes in her from an outcrossing breeding (I hope I used that term right) between a white and standard three generations back and the sire had the same thing four or five back. The other breeder was kind of shady anyways, so as far as I'm concerned, that was an oops anyways and I didn't look too far into it.
> 
> White GSDs must conform to the standard of a "normal" GSD for breeding and in shows that allow the WGSD. The only difference between my WGSD and a "normal" GSD is the coat color, period. I will admit, in the beginning, they were bred for color and nothing else. Now that there are a wealth of them out there, they are being bred for the show ring and they are being bred for working. They have their SLs and WLs the same way the standards do.
> 
> Yes, the AKC is not going to allow them in anytime in the near future and I'm okay with that. I'm not a show person and I'm definately not knocking anyone who is. There are enough show opportunities in the WGSD world that not being in the AKC shouldn't be an issue; I don't remember off the top of my head, but it's either the UKC or the good CKC that does the all around conformation instead of just "looking pretty" that WGSDs can enter and have won. There are also three different breed clubs for the WGSD that have their own shows across the country and into Canada.
> 
> I think that the WGSD should be allowed in the AKC conformation ring...whether under a different name or not, I'm not sure. I think that the WGSD should be able to hold true to their origins as a GSD, but if it makes the GSD purists happy, then fine, make it a different breed. The only problem with this is a lot of White breeders throw in a "standard" GSD every few generations for one reason or another (mostly because there are so few "working line" WGSDs they need to outsource those genes from somewhere...)
> 
> What needs to happen is the "purists" in the AKC and the "extremists" in the WGSD world need to retract their claws a bit and talk about it sensibly. I'm sure there's a compromise to be reached somwhere, but no one is willing to give up/share the name of German Shepherd...not saying I would want to either, but sometimes you have to put on your big girl panties and do crap you don't want to do.


Not talking about the AKC. The question was specifically for the SV and the SV does not register them and the SV pressured most breed registries into not registering them either. The only two known registries who does register them is the AKC and CKC which is why they were able to register them as American/Canadian white Shepherds when they were imported back into Germany before they became Berger Blanc Suisse.


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## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> Not talking about the AKC. The question was specifically for the SV and the SV does not register them and the SV pressured most breed registries into not registering them either. The only two known registries who does register them is the AKC and CKC which is why they were able to register them as American/Canadian white Shepherds when they were imported back into Germany before they became Berger Blanc Suisse.



Original question says nothing about the SV "Is the White German Shepherd, the same as the White Swiss Shepherd? And would that (those) breeds technically be a different coat variety as the German Shepherd Dog recognized today? Kind of like ASCOB, Black and Parti colored Cockers? Or Paint Horses vs Quarter Horses?"


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## Mrs.K

shepherdmom said:


> Original question says nothing about the SV "Is the White German Shepherd, the same as the White Swiss Shepherd? And would that (those) breeds technically be a different coat variety as the German Shepherd Dog recognized today? Kind of like ASCOB, Black and Parti colored Cockers? Or Paint Horses vs Quarter Horses?"



My post was an answer to this question:



> Originally Posted by DWP
> Mrs. K,
> 
> I am in no way trying to be obstinant or create a conflict, but I do have a question. If two registerred Black and Red GSD's are bred and the litter of seven pup produces two white ones, are they GSD's? Is the contention that they should not be GSD's. I understand the confirmation, and thought they were GSD's, but could not be shown. Again I mean no disrespect and am not wanting to be a problem, I am curious as to what the position is of the SV.
> 
> Thanks


 Since I am German, the SV matters to me more than the AKC ever will and according to SV and FCI rules there is no such thing as the white German Shepherd. Only the Swiss Shepherd and like I said before, the SV does not recognize a white German Shepherd, they do not register the white German Shepherd. A white German Shepherd does not exist. That is their position. 
The FCI accepted the Berger Blanc Suisse, so the white Shepherd in fact is the Berger Blanc Suisse and not a white German Shepherd. 

The white Shepherd, for the longest time was called American/Canadian Shepherd because there is no white German Shepherd (even though we all know it is a GSD there is NO SUCH THING as a white German Shepherd). 

For the breed, the best thing that could have happened is to get acknowledged and recognized as it's own breed because the SV/VDH/FCI will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER accept a white German Shepherd. Not now, not ever!


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## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> For the breed, the best thing that could have happened is to get acknowledged and recognized as it's own breed because the SV/VDH/FCI will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER accept a white German Shepherd. Not now, not ever!


Well their loss. I and hopefully many others will NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER buy a SV/VDH/FCI dog because that is just ridiculous. Hopefully the AKC/UKC will not go that stupid!


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## Mrs.K

shepherdmom said:


> Well their loss. I and hopefully many others will NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER buy a SV/VDH/FCI dog because that is just ridiculous. Hopefully the AKC/UKC will not go that stupid!


No it is not. I grew up knowing them as American/Canadian Shepherds. Not as German Shepherds. Now they are finally accepted as Berger Blanc Suisse. 

As for not buying an SV dog... well... you can't get around it unless you want to go with the American bred Shepherd.


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## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> No it is not. I grew up knowing them as American/Canadian Shepherds. Not as German Shepherds. Now they are finally accepted as Berger Blanc Suisse.
> 
> As for not buying an SV dog... well... you can't get around it unless you want to go with the American bred Shepherd.


I'm pretty sure that from here on out all of my dogs will be rescues. Maybe I'll find another white one day, but for now I seem to end up with the black dogs because those are the dogs people throw away most.


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## Shaolin

Mrs.K said:


> My post was an answer to this question:
> 
> 
> 
> Since I am German, the SV matters to me more than the AKC ever will and according to SV and FCI rules there is no such thing as the white German Shepherd. Only the Swiss Shepherd and like I said before, the SV does not recognize a white German Shepherd, they do not register the white German Shepherd. A white German Shepherd does not exist. That is their position.
> The FCI accepted the Berger Blanc Suisse, so the white Shepherd in fact is the Berger Blanc Suisse and not a white German Shepherd.
> 
> The white Shepherd, for the longest time was called American/Canadian Shepherd because there is no white German Shepherd (even though we all know it is a GSD there is NO SUCH THING as a white German Shepherd).
> 
> For the breed, the best thing that could have happened is to get acknowledged and recognized as it's own breed because the SV/VDH/FCI will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER accept a white German Shepherd. Not now, not ever!


The SV has the same stance as the AKC; White is a fault. That's it. You make it sound as if they refuse to believe that they even exist on this planet or even have the same genetics as a GSD. Genetically, they are the same. They just have the same color. There are Sch clubs that allow WGSDs to participate in club activities, but cannot participate in breeding. Nothing wrong with that.

The only reason the White coat was banned was because the Nazi's believed that the white coat ment diluted genes and that they had more health problems than the 'standard' GS. Now that it has been proven that, the color of the dog has nothing to do with intelligence, stamina, health, working ability, ect, why can't they be included as a coloring of the dog, the same way the B&T, Sable, and Black have been? If not, why can't they just be accepted as a GSD that has a fault and will only breed amongst themselves and progressive 'standard' owners that are looking to progress the breed as a whole, versus all this in-fighting about who's color is "right"?

My two favorite Captain Max Von Stephanitz quotes that talk about his desire for the breed mention nothing about color of the dog. Why can't we just go with that and love the breed for what it is, not the color of the dog?


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## Mrs.K

Shaolin said:


> The SV has the same stance as the AKC; White is a fault. That's it. You make it sound as if they refuse to believe that they even exist on this planet or even have the same genetics as a GSD. Genetically, they are the same. They just have the same color. There are Sch clubs that allow WGSDs to participate in club activities, but cannot participate in breeding. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> The only reason the White coat was banned was because the Nazi's believed that the white coat ment diluted genes and that they had more health problems than the 'standard' GS. Now that it has been proven that, the color of the dog has nothing to do with intelligence, stamina, health, working ability, ect, why can't they be included as a coloring of the dog, the same way the B&T, Sable, and Black have been? If not, why can't they just be accepted as a GSD that has a fault and will only breed amongst themselves and progressive 'standard' owners that are looking to progress the breed as a whole, versus all this in-fighting about who's color is "right"?
> 
> My two favorite Captain Max Von Stephanitz quotes that talk about his desire for the breed mention nothing about color of the dog. Why can't we just go with that and love the breed for what it is, not the color of the dog?


Because there is no such thing as the white German Shepherd. It is banned from the registration completely. We all know they are technically GSD's but they are not accepted therefor they will never be German Shepherds, they will never be registered as German Shepherd Dogs. 

They are Berger Blanc Suisse and it doesn't matter if they once were one and the same breed, if they have the same genes or not. They are NOT German Shepherds but the Berger Blanc Suisse, period!
You cannot ignore the fact that the Berger Blanc Suisse is an officially accepted breed by the FCI!


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## jessac

I don't see this argument getting anywhere...me and my non-existent dog are gonna go relax with a game of fetch.


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## Scarlettsmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> White German Shepherd Dog - The color white is caused by a recessive masking gene introduced into the breed from the very beginning. White coated German Shepherds can be registered with the AKC as German Shepherd Dogs. The disqualifying fault for the color white means the dogs can't be shown in the conformation ring but they are allowed to take part in all other AKC events. (obedience, agility etc.)
> 
> White Swiss Shepherd also known as the White Shepherd and Berger Blanc Suisse. Not recognized by the AKC but recognized by the UKC and the FCI. Shares a common ancestry with the white coated GSD but is bred to a different standard.
> 
> Breeders who support recognition for the White Shepherd in the AKC (and CKC) typically refer to their dogs as White Shepherds or White Swiss Shepherds even if they're still being registered as GSD's. Breeders who produce white coated German Shepherd Dogs call them GSD's or White German Shepherds.


 
Thank you for such a great definition. I should print it out and carry it with me whenever I am walking Scarlett. I always seem to get this question and never have the succinct answer.


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## Mrs.K

jessac said:


> I don't see this argument getting anywhere...me and my non-existent dog are gonna go relax with a game of fetch.


It is what it is. In Germany the WGSD is banned for over 60 years. I grew up with them being the Canadian Shepherd and now they are Berger Blanc Suisse. 

Simple as that... just because the AKC had to make it's own rules, doesn't make it right.


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## Shaolin

Yeah...I'm just gonna go out and get my not-real dog some bully sticks and then take him to CGC class. No reason to raise my BP over this. I believe what I believe, you believe what you are going to believe. Nothing either one of us can/will say can change that.


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## Mrs.K

I have no issue with your believes. Just stating some facts. Again, these are the rules in Germany/Europe. A white Shepherd, is the Berger Blanc Suisse. We do not have white German Shepherds. 

So your dog, to me, is a Berger Blanc Suisse or a white Shepherd but not a white German Shepherd.


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## Chicagocanine

Personally I don't think further narrowing of an already small gene pool by making the white GSD a separate breed is going to do anything good for these dogs in the future.


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## Whiteshepherds

Chicagocanine said:


> Personally I don't think further narrowing of an already small gene pool by making the white GSD a separate breed is going to do anything good for these dogs in the future.


This is a myth. Fred Lanting wrote a good article about the gene pool for the whites and stated that it was more than sufficient to support the breed. I doubt he was guessing or making it up. 



shepherdmom said:


> Well their loss. I and hopefully many others will NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER buy a SV/VDH/FCI dog because that is just ridiculous. Hopefully the AKC/UKC will not go that stupid!


The UKC recognizes the White Shepherd as a distinct breed separate and apart from the white coated German Shepherd Dog. 





> Simple as that... just because the AKC had to make it's own rules,


Mrs K just to clarify. The SV is a registry and a parent club. In the US the GSDCA is the parent club for the GSD, the AKC only registers them. The AKC is told what can and can't be done with a breed by the parent clubs. It wasn't the AKC that made the rules, it was the GSDCA. 


I also wanted to add that the Berger Blanc Suisse are not the same as an SV GSD regardless of their ancestry and they are not the same as the American or Canadian white GSD's. They're the result of selective breeding for a structure and temperament that suited the purposes of the people who bred them. These are amazing dogs with some of the best attributes the GSD breed had to offer but they have their differences. The road they traveled to gain breed recognition wasn't easy or short, but it paid off. 


The American White Shepherd Association is the parent club for the White Shepherd and the BBS (same dogs, name changes depending what country you live in) in the US and continues to work with the AKC in an effort to gain FSS status. At this point in time we (AWSA) are very pleased with our progress. Again, this isn't an easy or short road but we believe these dogs deserve to have full breed recognition out from under the stigma they've carried for so long and away from the GSDCA. 


I wonder why the GSDCA holds on so tightly to dogs that carry one of the 5 disqualifying faults in the breed. (or maybe it's 6) If the job of a parent club is to protect the integrity of a breed one would think their first order of business would be to eliminate dogs that were intentionally bred with faults. If they don't believe the dogs are faulty why haven't they lifted the dq?? Food for thought.


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## Mrs.K

> I also wanted to add that the Berger Blanc Suisse are not the same as an SV GSD regardless of their ancestry and they are not the same as the American or Canadian white GSD's. They're the result of selective breeding for a structure and temperament that suited the purposes of the people who bred them. These are amazing dogs with some of the best attributes the GSD breed had to offer but they have their differences. The road they traveled to gain breed recognition wasn't easy or short, but it paid off.


It all goes back to the Canadian White Shepherd and White German Shepherd Dog. They imported dogs from Denmark, Canada, America left and right to create the breed. It is the White German Shepherd Dog but to get recognized by the FCI they had to start to breed selectively. Otherwise they would have never been accepted as a breed. Also, a lot of White Shepht therd breeders in Germany started to join the BBI once they had the chance to do so. 
They have only been accepted since 2011.
From what I know was Switzerland the first country with 8 independent Bloodlines which is why the Société Cynologique Suisse, put in the application with the FCI to get the Berger Blanc Suisse.


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## cliffson1

smh!


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## selzer

The white dogs have been around a long time. They are GSDs. Capt. Max said a good dog cannot be a bad color. So Germany chose to dump them, everyone else should follow suit? I don't know. I really don't have a dog in this fight, but I doubt AKC will be willing to register them as a separate variety, because they put a moratorium on adding varieties to breeds. I think it adds up in the end, to more classes, more judging, though that might not be the thought process. 

I think it is pretty sad that a new breed had to be created for dogs that exist, and are the same dog, just a different color. 

And I think that the breed itself has moved forward in Germany and in America, and most of what I hear about that isn't all that positive. Instead we all go back to the past and say, this is what the dogs used to be like, or this is what schutzhund used to be. But now suddenly we should move forward and get out of the past? 

I think it would be a huge mess for the AKC when a breeder has 7 pups and one is white, to either not register it at all, or to register it as a different breed. I just do not see either of those things happening. People used to cull the white ones. Read Winifred Strickland and Jimmy Moses' book, The German Shepherd Today. It tells you it is not so hard if you have off-color pups, but if they are all of equal quality... Do the Germans just cull them so no one knows their dogs threw a white pup? Or have too many generations gone by that the white ones are now extinct over there? It isn't so hard to maintain that they are not registered if they never happen. But people do have white ones here. So what do you do for those breeders, and those dogs?


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## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> I think it is pretty sad that a new breed had to be created for dogs that exist, and are the same dog, just a different color.


I don't think it's all that sad, just one of those things that happens in the dog world. 


selzer said:


> I think it would be a huge mess for the AKC when a breeder has 7 pups and one is white, to either not register it at all, or to register it as a different breed. I just do not see either of those things happening.


The UKC recognizes the white GSD and the White Shepherd. The same could be done in the AKC. 


selzer said:


> Do the Germans just cull them so no one knows their dogs threw a white pup? Or have too many generations gone by that the white ones are now extinct over there? It isn't so hard to maintain that they are not registered if they never happen. ?


Mrs K probably has a better idea about how often whites show up in SV litters and what happens to them, hopefully she'll jump in. I'm guessing it doesn't happen too often. Good breeders would have been avoiding that recessive gene for a long time, yes? Maybe it's something you see in the German version of byb - breeders who don't care if their dogs can be registered. No idea.


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## Mrs.K

> Mrs K probably has a better idea about how often whites show up in SV litters and what happens to them, hopefully she'll jump in. I'm guessing it doesn't happen too often. Good breeders would have been avoiding that recessive gene for a long time, yes? Maybe it's something you see in the German version of byb - breeders who don't care if their dogs can be registered. No idea.


To be honest, I have never even heard or seen any white Shepherd being born out of an SV litter. 

I've seen longcoat without the undercoat and they are a fault too but the breeders I know, they don't cull them. They go into families just like the other pups. 

It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen every so often.


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## Debbieg

selzer said:


> The white dogs have been around a long time. They are GSDs. Capt. Max said a good dog cannot be a bad color. So Germany chose to dump them, everyone else should follow suit? I
> I think it is pretty sad that a new breed had to be created for dogs that exist, and are the same dog, just a different color.
> 
> I think it would be a huge mess for the AKC when a breeder has 7 pups and one is white, to either not register it at all, or to register it as a different breed. I just do not see either of those things happening. People used to cull the white ones. ... Do the Germans just cull them so no one knows their dogs threw a white pup? Or have too many generations gone by that the white ones are now extinct over there? It isn't so hard to maintain that they are not registered if they never happen. But people do have white ones here. So what do you do for those breeders, and those dogs?


I would like to know this too.


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## Debbieg

Also how does the standard differ for the White Shepherd, Berger Blanc Swiss, German Shepherd White?

It seems just from what I have seen that not many whites are in Schutzhund, or Law Enforcement, but are more in Agility or Obedience.

Is this because there are fewer white or because the standard is different?


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## Mrs.K

Actually, I know a few white Kennels that do SchH back in Germany.


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## arycrest

selzer said:


> ...
> I think it would be a huge mess for the AKC when a breeder has 7 pups and one is white, to either not register it at all, or to register it as a different breed. I just do not see either of those things happening. People used to cull the white ones. Read Winifred Strickland and Jimmy Moses' book, The German Shepherd Today. It tells you it is not so hard if you have off-color pups, but if they are all of equal quality... Do the Germans just cull them so no one knows their dogs threw a white pup? Or have too many generations gone by that the white ones are now extinct over there? It isn't so hard to maintain that they are not registered if they never happen. But people do have white ones here. So what do you do for those breeders, and those dogs?


If there were breed separation and if a GSD had a white off spring it would be registered by AKC as a GSD. Look at the Belgian dogs ... in other countries the Belgian Sheepdog, Turvern, and Malonios, along with the Laekenols are considered one breed ... here in the US they're separate breeds. If a Belgian Sheepdog has a beautiful Turvern, it has to be registered with AKC as a Belgian Sheepdog.


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## Mrs.K

arycrest said:


> If there were breed separation and if a GSD had a white off spring it would be registered by AKC as a GSD. Look at the Belgian dogs ... in other countries the Belgian Sheepdog, Turvern, and Malonios, along with the Laekenols are considered one breed ... here in the US they're separate breeds. If a Belgian Sheepdog has a beautiful Turvern, it has to be registered with AKC as a Belgian Sheepdog.


YEah, in my opinion it is the AKC creating a huge mess not following the actual rules of the breeds.


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## selzer

arycrest said:


> If there were breed separation and if a GSD had a white off spring it would be registered by AKC as a GSD. Look at the Belgian dogs ... in other countries the Belgian Sheepdog, Turvern, and Malonios, along with the Laekenols are considered one breed ... here in the US they're separate breeds. If a Belgian Sheepdog has a beautiful Turvern, it has to be registered with AKC as a Belgian Sheepdog.


The AKC has cockers I think separated that way, ASCOB, Parti, and Black -- I think that is cocker spaniels, but they have new rules that they are not going to do any more varieties of breeds. So whites are GSDs, juts a disqualifying fault. 

As for the Belgian Sheep dog in AKC, that is the black, and the Turv is the one that is kind of a tri-color longish coat, the Malinois has the short coat, and the Laekenois has the wirey coat. But I would think that would be kind of a nightmare in how the breeder would register them. 

For as much we could say the AKC should do thus, we can also say the SV shouldn't have done thus. Personally, I think that the SV in barring them caused more of a problem than the AKC does in not creating a separate registry for them.


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## Debbieg

Sorry if this sound ignorant . If a Belgian Mal Sire and Dam have one long coat in a litter of short coats it is a Tervuren? 
If a black and tan GSD sire and Dam have a litter of black and tans with one white can all but the white be registered or are all registered as GSD but the white considered a fault?

I would take a white GSD in a heart beat if it had the temperment I wanted and good health.


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## selzer

As it stands in the AKC, if you have a white pup in your litter of GSDs, you give them the papers and the color is white. No biggie. It is just a fault, and it can't be shown in conformation. That is the only thing it cannot do in AKC.


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## Xeph

> If a Belgian Mal Sire and Dam have one long coat in a litter of short coats it is a Tervuren?


In every country but America, yes


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## cliffson1

I guess we are still waiting for other countries to follow our lead


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## Mrs.K

Like with everything else, eh?


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## Debbieg

Xeph said:


> In every country but America, yes


So in America a long coat born to the Mal Sire and Dam would be disqualified?


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## Andaka

Yes. That is why breeders who import from Europe often register the bitch and resulting puppies in Canada first. That way they can be registered as the correct variety.

But the issue with white GSD's is the most of the ones born to colored parents are a result of pet breeding, and would still be registered as GSD's.


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## TxFig

shepherdmom said:


> As a pet person, I don't want to research dogs. I don't want to worry about whatever fancy name you call them. I just want a dog. This whole show world makes it too complicated, which is what is happening.



I've spent the last 25+ years in the Labrador Retriever world - where there is a fairly well defined "split" between labs bred for performance vs those bred for the show ring.

I was most definitely in the performance camp.  I have no use for beauty contests (be they for people or dogs).


I say that so that you will hopefully understand this: *the breed standard IS something that is important*. It should not be disregarded willy-nilly. Without it, we might as well not have breeds at all - and just call everything a pit bull (like the evening news does). And whether we like it or not, the breed standard is defined by those who created the breed (in Germany). And they say "no white German Shepards".


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## Archkronus

I am sorry, I had to create an account after many days of reading forum posts on here and this one irritated me extremely... Mrs. K; I am sorry to inform you but the white colored GSD is in fact a GSD and not a Berger Blanc Suisse, Canadian Shepherd, American Shepherd, White Shepherd, etc. Let us do a little bit of counter-research to state facts without telling forum members here misinformation.

First, the German Shepherd has been around since the 1800s. The very first registered German Shepherd, as we know the breed today, was in 1899. White German Shepherds were recorded appearing during that same time frame as the very first registered GSD had white in his bloodline. During this period, all colors, to include white, were accepted and registered. But what caused the white gene to be disqualified?

During the reign of Hitler, white colored GSDs were still around like any other GSD. When Hitler saw this, he saw it as a defect and would prefer the breed to have the darker colors. This caused the Nazis to dislike the white colored GSD and many of the members of the german shepherd club SV, being Nazis, threatened owners of white colored GSDs so the gene could be wiped out. This caused the white masking gene to be considered a 'flaw' or 'defect'. So what does this have to do with the white shepherd dog, Berger Blanc Suisse, etc?

The first White Shepherd dog was registered in 1966 which would make your statement false to say that all white colored GSDs originated from white shepherds, canadian shepherds, etc. Just follow the bloodline and you can see that German Shepherds have been around a whole lot longer than any of these Berger Blanc Suisse, White Shepherds, and so on. Scientifically, a white colored GSD is no different than a regular GSD genetically so to be ignorant to the fact that a white colored GSD is a GSD is giving no credit to the breed what-so-ever. Statements like these creates a common misconception that if I were to walk down the road with my white colored GSD, that someone would call it a Berger Blanc Suisse or White Shepherd which is false.

Though the dogs are similar, genetically they are different due to selective breeding. No kennel club will deny a white colored GSD from being registered as a GSD, but some KCs will ban the white gene from being put in conformation ring. So please Mrs K, do a little research before giving false information about the breed.


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## Mrs.K

> Though the dogs are similar, genetically they are different due to selective breeding.* No kennel club will deny a white colored GSD from being registered as a GSD*, but some KCs will ban the white gene from being put in conformation ring. So please Mrs K, do a little research before giving false information about the breed.


Wrong! 

Simply wrong!

And about the rest, I think you didn't get what I was saying. The Berger Blanc Suisse was created to give the white Shepherd a platform in Europe. Because in Germany, the white Shepherd CANNOT BE registered which makes your statement...



> No kennel club will deny a white colored GSD from being registered as a GSD


...wrong, because there is no such thing as a white German Shepherd in Germany. Go ahead, try and get a white German Shepherd registered with the SV in Germany. It will not happen! What does happen is that many white Shepherd Breeders in Germany join the Berger Blanc Suisse.


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## Xeph

> When Hitler saw this, he saw it as a defect and would prefer the breed to have the darker colors


Nobody knows this for sure. It's just a guess. Just because it's commonly parroted doesn't make it true.



> No kennel club will deny a white colored GSD from being registered as a GSD


The SV won't register them. I don't agree, but it's their prerogative.


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## Mrs.K

Archkronus said:


> I am sorry, I had to create an account after many days of reading forum posts on here and this one irritated me extremely... Mrs. K; I am sorry to inform you but the white colored GSD is in fact a GSD and not a Berger Blanc Suisse, Canadian Shepherd, American Shepherd, White Shepherd, etc. Let us do a little bit of counter-research to state facts without telling forum members here misinformation.
> 
> First, the German Shepherd has been around since the 1800s. The very first registered German Shepherd, as we know the breed today, was in 1899. White German Shepherds were recorded appearing during that same time frame as the very first registered GSD had white in his bloodline. During this period, all colors, to include white, were accepted and registered. But what caused the white gene to be disqualified?
> 
> During the reign of Hitler, white colored GSDs were still around like any other GSD. When Hitler saw this, he saw it as a defect and would prefer the breed to have the darker colors. This caused the Nazis to dislike the white colored GSD and many of the members of the german shepherd club SV, being Nazis, threatened owners of white colored GSDs so the gene could be wiped out. This caused the white masking gene to be considered a 'flaw' or 'defect'. So what does this have to do with the white shepherd dog, Berger Blanc Suisse, etc?
> 
> *That was in 1933 to be exact. What it has to do with the White Shepherd or Berger Blanc Suisse? How do you think the White Shepherd or Berger Blanc Suisse was created? Because the color was deemed a fault and wiped out of the German Studbooks. In 1968 the German Shepherd Dog Club of America banned the color white (which was after the first dog was registered in Switzerland, but dogs were already exported to Canada and became a huge hit.Without Switzerland being so supportive of the White Shepherd and pushing the application there would be no Berger Blank Suisse because the SV sure as heck wasn't supportive! They've tried everything within their power to stop it. *
> 
> The first White Shepherd dog was registered in 1966 which would make your statement false to say that all white colored GSDs originated from white shepherds, canadian shepherds, etc. J
> 
> *Yes, in SWITZERLAND, not in Germany and in 1968 white was deemed faulty with the German Shepherd Dog Club of America. They registered the dog was imported from Canada and his name was Lobo. And I've stated that before. Switzerland was the first country to accept the white Shepherd. And they tried to get accepted as "white German Shepherd Dog" with the FCI but because of the oppositition from the SV, the process was very slow and then the Swiss Registration (SHSB) put in the application to get the application to get the breed accepted and the Berger Blanc Suisse was born. However, the Berger Blanc Suisse is basically the white German/Canadian Shepherd. You cannot deny that fact at all! *
> ust follow the bloodline and you can see that German Shepherds have been around a whole lot longer than any of these Berger Blanc Suisse, White Shepherds, and so on. Scientifically, a white colored GSD is no different than a regular GSD genetically so to be ignorant to the fact that a white colored GSD is a GSD is giving no credit to the breed what-so-ever. Statements like these creates a common misconception that if I were to walk down the road with my white colored GSD, that someone would call it a Berger Blanc Suisse or White Shepherd which is false.
> 
> Though the dogs are similar, genetically they are different due to selective breeding. No kennel club will deny a white colored GSD from being registered as a GSD, but some KCs will ban the white gene from being put in conformation ring. So please Mrs K, do a little research before giving false information about the breed.


I am pretty sure that I've done my homework.


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## Whiteshepherds

Archkronus said:


> The first White Shepherd dog was registered in 1966


Registered where? I think you've mixed up your information. Lobo is recognized as the progenitor for the BBS. He was whelped in 1966 and registered as an AKC GSD. His descendants were registered in the Swiss stud book as a new breed but that wasn't until 1991 not 1966.



Archkronus said:


> Statements like these creates a common misconception that if I were to walk down the road with my white colored GSD, that someone would call it a Berger Blanc Suisse or White Shepherd which is false.


You can't expect every person you meet walking down the street to know what kind of dog you have. If it bothers you when someone thinks you have a BBS all you have to do is correct them.


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## shepherdmom

TxFig said:


> I say that so that you will hopefully understand this: *the breed standard IS something that is important*. It should not be disregarded willy-nilly. Without it, we might as well not have breeds at all - and just call everything a pit bull (like the evening news does). And whether we like it or not, the breed standard is defined by those who created the breed (in Germany). And they say "no white German Shepards".


Actually they say "no white German Shepherds"  

As for the standard, I really don't care what they say. Germany needs to pull its head out, IMO thankfully they are not the only registry.

My Shepherds, with the exception of my rescue who is AKC, have all been UKC anyway.


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## Archkronus

I am not here to change your mind, Mrs K, since it would be a waste of everyones time to do so. I am simply here stating your facts were false. You stated there is no such thing as a white colored GSD and scientifically there is. You stated that when you see a white colored GSD its a white Shepherd (which genetically is false), Canadian Shepherd (False yet again), BBS (again... false). All of the dogs you mentioned are newer selective breeding branched from the original GSD. You have told members that there is no white colored GSD but there is.

The result of the white colored GSD is due to a masking gene that basically inverts the colors. With my white colored GSD, as an example, he has golden ears and gold all along his back with white all over. This would have been the brown in him and the white would have been black since some pups in the same liter were standard GSD black and brown.

To put it simply, a white colored GSD is NOT a BBS. Your previous statements said that bluntly and I am putting an end to your mis-information about the breed. In your world, if you went and saw a liter of newly born GSDs and saw one white, you would say "Nope that is a BBS or Canadian Shepherd" even with pedigree paperwork dating back over six generations stating that each sir and dam was indeed a registered GSD.


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## Whiteshepherds

Mrs. K said:


> Because the color was deemed a fault and wiped out of the German Studbooks. In 1968 the German Shepherd Dog Club of America banned the color white (which was after the first dog was registered in Switzerland, but dogs were already exported to Canada and became a huge hit.


Just to clarify for those who don't know. The AKC and CKC both allow full registration for white coated GSD's. They were banned from the conformation ring, not the breed.  (Canada didn't change their standard until years after the GSDCA did)


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## Shaolin

She's right about one thing: The SV does not acknowledge the white coated GSD. Mrs. K is a staunch believer in the SV (nothing wrong with that at all) and in her opinion, there isn't such a thing as a White Coated GSD. Yes, they are tride and true dogs, but in her opinion, a White Coated GSD is not a real GSD. Her phrasing might ruffle feathers about how they aren't "real" dogs, but it's just her opinion and, unfortunately for us WGSD owners, her opinions are based in sound facts about who can register where and how...but we can always giggle about the fact that the Grandsire of the foundation dog for the GSD breed was a White colored Shepherd dog...so we do have that. 

Besides, the only thing they can't do in the US is show in the AKC conformation ring. They can register in the AKC and do other things. If you want to do conformation, the WGSDCA has their own shows.

Your White pup sounds beautiful, by the way. Mine has a bit of a Bitch Stripe that's yellow/blonde, but it's hard to see under natural light.


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## Mrs.K

Archkronus said:


> I am not here to change your mind, Mrs K, since it would be a waste of everyones time to do so. I am simply here stating your facts were false. You stated there is no such thing as a white colored GSD and scientifically there is. You stated that when you see a white colored GSD its a white Shepherd (which genetically is false), Canadian Shepherd (False yet again), BBS (again... false). All of the dogs you mentioned are newer selective breeding branched from the original GSD. You have told members that there is no white colored GSD but there is.
> 
> The result of the white colored GSD is due to a masking gene that basically inverts the colors. With my white colored GSD, as an example, he has golden ears and gold all along his back with white all over. This would have been the brown in him and the white would have been black since some pups in the same liter were standard GSD black and brown.
> 
> To put it simply, a white colored GSD is NOT a BBS. Your previous statements said that bluntly and I am putting an end to your mis-information about the breed. In your world, if you went and saw a liter of newly born GSDs and saw one white, you would say "Nope that is a BBS or Canadian Shepherd" even with pedigree paperwork dating back over six generations stating that each sir and dam was indeed a registered GSD.


You do not get what I am saying. 

According to the SV there is no such thing as the white German Shepherd. What I believe or don't believe doesn't matter. The SV will not ever allow to register a white German Shepherd. If it was up to them there probably wouldn't even be a Berger Blanc Suisse. 
The color white is a fault and because there was no white German Shepherd they were called Canadian Shepherds and all because the *SV *does not recognize the white Shepherd *AT ALL!*.

Many people have fought to get the white Shepherd recognized by the FCI with little success because of the SV. Switzerland took the initiative and now we have the Berger Blanc Suisse which is a bliss for the breed.
I am from Germany.


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## Doc

When in Rome, do as the Romans; when in America, do as the AKC. ROFLMAO

A DNA TEST WILL IDENTIFY THEM AS German shepherds. There is even a white one in Horand's woodpile. Ain't that a twist of fate.


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## Mrs.K

Even with the AKC, personally I would never breed for white, blue, liver or panda. I would not breed over or undersized dogs. If I ever had any of these dogs they would be speutered asap.

There is a standard. 

Everyone else can do what they believe. I may not agree with it but if the AKC allows it that is ok. Does not mean that I have to follow into their footsteps. That is the nice thing about the AKC, actually having that freedom.

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## gsdsar

Very informative thread. 

I have a question. If one of the foundation dogs for our breed was white, they were obviously accepted at some point. So at what point did the SV decide that they would no longer register them. And if they won't register them for having a fault, they why will they register coated dogs? 


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## selzer

Well, I wouldn't speuter the off-colors, but I wouldn't breed them. That isn't what I am looking to produce. What other people do and like is their business. They can be bred and worked in any avenue save conformation in the AKC. I think it is really kind of silly that they would make another breed just for white ones. In fact, I think that down the line it can be a detriment as the number of dogs to breed to and from is limited to only white dogs, and if something, some disease becomes common in some of those lines it will mean an even tighter gene pool. 

Max Von Stephanitz said a good dog couldn't be a bad color. He was not particularly against white ones. Noting why white was disqualified by the SV in the first place would give us a better understanding on why we might or might not want to work with that color. I mean if it was disqualified due to possibly being linked with illness, deafness, unstable nerve, or inability to function as a working dog due to its color, and those reasons were proved false, then encouraging the GSDCA to lift the restriction on the color in this country, where white dogs are here to stay might make sense. 

I really don't think it makes sense for the SV to lift the restriction. It sounds like the color has been eliminated in German dogs. If that is so, it simply does not make sense to import dogs to deliberately re-introduce the color over there. 

But another breed with the same make up just makes no sense to me at all. But then, no one really should care if it makes sense to me. I don't have white dogs, and simply do not have a dog in this fight.


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## Shaolin

Captain Stephanitz stated that, while he was not against the white coat, it was 'dull, lackluster, and unexciting.' He actually prefered the Sable look. The most accepted reason as to why the SV does not allow the white color was because Hitler didn't like the color. They also felt that the white coat was linked to hereditary issues. All whites and dogs who gave birth to whites were culled.

I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding for an already established color: B&T breeders who like the 'saddle back/blanket back' look wouldn't think of throwing in a Sable or Black into their breeding mix, same with those who only use Sables, Blacks, Bi-Colors, and Whites. Pandas are nothing more than a designer color and none of the Pandas' I've seen in pictures even look like a standard GSD in body conformation. Livers are pretty and if a solid nerved, conformationally sound and titled dog who was healthy popped up as a stud/bitch for breeding, I would use it, but for the whole dog, not just for color.

White GSDs are slowly becoming more standard in being bred for working abilities and not for colors. I'm hoping that, one day, I'll see a WGSD in a Sch club doing the bite work. There have already been a few as Police K-9s, but maybe once they start showing well in every working ring, they may become more accepted. I doubt the SV will ever accept the Shepherd, but it's not that critical. I don't need to be accepted by them to know my and any well bred WGSD can do the same job as an accepted GSD color.

Here's a great link to the History of the WGSD: White Shepherd - History, Myths and Misconceptions - Chazhound Dog Forum


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## selzer

Actually, if you add a sable to a black and tan line, it can improve the colors on the black and tans produced. I haven't tried that but I have heard that if you want to improve your dark color breed to a sable, not a black.


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## gsdsar

And if it's true, that Hiltler is the reason. Well that makes me want one. To have an organization that based policy on the whim of a megalomaniacal, genocidal sociopath, seems wrong. 

Now if the answer is that it hard to work a herding dog that blends in with sheep. That I would get. 

But if you are going to deny the existence if a dog based on a fault, then all dogs born with faults must be excluded as well. Including LC. 


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## Doc

There may come a time in the very near future when breeders turn to liver, blue and white German shepherds to improve the vast number of disorders and diseases that is ruining this breed.
Sine they are the "*******" dogs of the breed, they haven't been subjected to back masking, close line breeding and inbreeding that has lead to genetic bottlenecks and perpetuated fatal diseases in the more common lines. JMO


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## Shaolin

Doc said:


> There may come a time in the very near future when breeders turn to liver, blue and white German shepherds to improve the vast number of disorders and diseases that is ruining this breed.
> Sine they are the "*******" dogs of the breed, they haven't been subjected to back masking, close line breeding and inbreeding that has lead to genetic bottlenecks and perpetuated fatal diseases in the more common lines. JMO


Depends on the breeder. My second choice breeder did a line breeding for a specific purpose. He was looking for a very strong working WGSD and he had to breed to a white that came from a line that popped a white from a B&T breeding several generations back.

Also, there's more of a possibility for a genetic bottleneck, especially when you have breeders who will not breed outside of a WGSD, or will only breed to a white who has 'no color' for at least three generations, or who only breed for sport/working. I think the occasional mixing with another 'color' of dog , but who has favorable genetics/titles should happen more often than it does, but when both sides of the fence feel that the other dog is inferior and shouldn't be bred to...

@Seltzer: I didn't know that. That's a pretty cool fact.

@gsdsar: The story I heard was that Nazi sympathizers ousted Captain Stephanitz from the SV and changed it to what Hitler would've liked. Hitler did have a GSD...a Black and Tan if I remember correctly, and the color dogs used by the SS were the colors of the GSD rainbow except for white, so it may have been an edict from Hitler himself, or just what a bunch of nutjobs saw as honoring Hitler. I don't know.

All I know is that, if Capt. Stephanitz was alive today, I'm sure he'd be cranky at all the infighting over which color was better and wondering why we're not all just coming together to make the GSD the best breed possible, regardless of what color of fur the pup has.


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## Whiteshepherds

Doc said:


> There may come a time in the very near future when breeders turn to liver, blue and white German shepherds to improve the vast number of disorders and diseases that is ruining this breed.
> Sine they are the "*******" dogs of the breed, they haven't been subjected to back masking, close line breeding and inbreeding that has lead to genetic bottlenecks and perpetuated fatal diseases in the more common lines. JMO


This is a quote from the UKC:
_Effective January 1, 2013.... the United Kennel Club will no longer accept any single registrations of German Shepherd and White Shepherd crosses into the White Shepherd gene pool._ _These dogs will, however, be allowed into the German Shepherd gene pool in an effort to ameliorate the health and performance of the breed._

Nice to know the White Shepherds can help out the GSD gene pool.


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## NormanF

Whiteshepherds said:


> This is a quote from the UKC:
> _Effective January 1, 2013.... the United Kennel Club will no longer accept any single registrations of German Shepherd and White Shepherd crosses into the White Shepherd gene pool._ _These dogs will, however, be allowed into the German Shepherd gene pool in an effort to ameliorate the health and performance of the breed._
> 
> Nice to know the White Shepherds can help out the GSD gene pool.


The SV's attitude towards the white shepherd is a provincial prejudice without any sound scientific basis. No dog is bad simply because of its color. The only thing that should be considered a fault in a German Shepherd Dog is deviation from the breed standards.


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## NormanF

Shaolin said:


> Captain Stephanitz stated that, while he was not against the white coat, it was 'dull, lackluster, and unexciting.' He actually prefered the Sable look. The most accepted reason as to why the SV does not allow the white color was because Hitler didn't like the color. They also felt that the white coat was linked to hereditary issues. All whites and dogs who gave birth to whites were culled.
> 
> I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding for an already established color: B&T breeders who like the 'saddle back/blanket back' look wouldn't think of throwing in a Sable or Black into their breeding mix, same with those who only use Sables, Blacks, Bi-Colors, and Whites. Pandas are nothing more than a designer color and none of the Pandas' I've seen in pictures even look like a standard GSD in body conformation. Livers are pretty and if a solid nerved, conformationally sound and titled dog who was healthy popped up as a stud/bitch for breeding, I would use it, but for the whole dog, not just for color.
> 
> White GSDs are slowly becoming more standard in being bred for working abilities and not for colors. I'm hoping that, one day, I'll see a WGSD in a Sch club doing the bite work. There have already been a few as Police K-9s, but maybe once they start showing well in every working ring, they may become more accepted. I doubt the SV will ever accept the Shepherd, but it's not that critical. I don't need to be accepted by them to know my and any well bred WGSD can do the same job as an accepted GSD color.
> 
> Here's a great link to the History of the WGSD: White Shepherd - History, Myths and Misconceptions - Chazhound Dog Forum


You'd have to convince the SV of that which humorously pretends White German Shepherds are really Swiss White Mountain Dogs. All to save it from admitting it made a mistake in banishing the white color from the breed. Its not these beautiful dogs that are at fault, its the stupid politics of the parent German Shepherd club that prevent them from receiving their just due.


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## NormanF

gsdsar said:


> Very informative thread.
> 
> I have a question. If one of the foundation dogs for our breed was white, they were obviously accepted at some point. So at what point did the SV decide that they would no longer register them. And if they won't register them for having a fault, they why will they register coated dogs?


The SV doesn't admit there is a White German Shepherd Dog, period. As far as its concerned, it doesn't exist and the only real German Shepherd Dog from its standpoint are the colored varieties. Around 1960, they began enforcing a ban on white dogs which led to the almost complete demise of the color in Germany and Europe as the SV from that point on would refuse to register ANY white dog as a German Shepherd. The foreign kennel clubs haven't gone that far. Again, all of this about is politics not sound genetics or even accepted science.


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## Mrs.K

NormanF said:


> You'd have to convince the SV of that which humorously pretends White German Shepherds are really Swiss White Mountain Dogs. All to save it from admitting it made a mistake in banishing the white color from the breed. Its not these beautiful dogs that are at fault, its the stupid politics of the parent German Shepherd club that prevent them from receiving their just due.



Thank you. Finally someone that gets it. 

There is no way, absolutely no way, that the SV will ever admit that the White GSD exists. Not today. Maybe in the future, who knows but definitely not in the near future.


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## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> You do not get what I am saying.
> 
> *According to the SV* there is no such thing as the white German Shepherd. What I believe or don't believe doesn't matter. *The SV* will not ever allow to register a white German Shepherd.* If it was up to them* there probably wouldn't even be a Berger Blanc Suisse.
> The color white is a fault and because there was no white German Shepherd they were called Canadian Shepherds and all because the *SV *does not recognize the white Shepherd *AT ALL!*.
> 
> Many people have fought to get the white Shepherd recognized by the FCI with little success because of the SV. Switzerland took the initiative and now we have the Berger Blanc Suisse which is a bliss for the breed.
> I am from Germany.


Sadly, Mrs.K, I don't think you understand what this person is trying to say also. Congratulations on being from Germany but that really says nothing. Regardless of the *SV or your opinion *a German Shepherd that is white is a German Shepherd regardless if SV likes it or not. They try to ignore the fact that a German Shepherd that is born white IS STILL a German Shepherd which is asinine. This is not 1997! Every kennel club recognizes a German Shepherd that is white if it has registered parents. Those white dogs/bitches can not compete in confirmation show rings, but they can still breed as a German Shepherd and their puppies will be born and registered as a German Shepherd if mated with another registered bitch or dog.

Here is the standard for the SV... http://www.germanshepherddogs.org/sv-standard/

The SV also says that a German Shepherd can not be over or undersized, but you do not call a smaller German Shepherd a "Mini shepherd"!! It is NOT another breed. It is fully a German Shepherd even if it does not fit the ideal mold that the SV wants! AGAIN, this is not 1997! During the creation of this breed I could see people throwing a fit... but the German Shepherd is a pretty common breed of dog now and is "registered" with a standard in many kennel clubs. Just because white is a fault does not mean the animal is no longer a German Shepherd(according to most kennel clubs!) because its fur color. 

A German Shepherd that is white or too short or too big is still considered a German Shepherd... it is just a fault for them to be white! 

This is the main point that Archkronus seemed to be making and I hope to make as well.

Just like him, I also hate it when people accidentally spread confusion. You have no idea how hard it was when I was learning about shepherds to get through the crap people spread about the breed in MANY areas. Not just this singular topic. I understand what you are trying to say in the long run about the SV because its the original standard for the breed, but the way it comes off is not how I think you mean it to sound.


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## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> Thank you. Finally someone that gets it.
> 
> There is no way, absolutely no way, that the SV will ever admit that the White GSD exists. Not today. Maybe in the future, who knows but definitely not in the near future.


I really hope they do. If everyone else considers white colored shepherds as... well... a shepherd... then they should just suck it up and admit the mistake they made. It's not like it is some dirty secret. German Shepherds can be born white! Oh no! LOOK AWAY! hah.


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## TAResley

Ah and I really messed up that date... 1997? What ever you know what I mean.


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## Mrs.K

TAResley said:


> Sadly, Mrs.K, I don't think you understand what this person is trying to say also. Congratulations on being from Germany but that really says nothing. Regardless of the *SV or your opinion *a German Shepherd that is white is a German Shepherd regardless if SV likes it or not. They try to ignore the fact that a German Shepherd that is born white IS STILL a German Shepherd which is asinine. This is not 1997! Every kennel club recognizes a German Shepherd that is white if it has registered parents. Those white dogs/bitches can not compete in confirmation show rings, but they can still breed as a German Shepherd and their puppies will be born and registered as a German Shepherd if mated with another registered bitch or dog.
> 
> Here is the standard for the SV... http://www.germanshepherddogs.org/sv-standard/
> 
> The SV also says that a German Shepherd can not be over or undersized, but you do not call a smaller German Shepherd a "Mini shepherd"!! It is NOT another breed. It is fully a German Shepherd even if it does not fit the ideal mold that the SV wants! AGAIN, this is not 1997! During the creation of this breed I could see people throwing a fit... but the German Shepherd is a pretty common breed of dog now and is "registered" with a standard in many kennel clubs. Just because white is a fault does not mean the animal is no longer a German Shepherd(according to most kennel clubs!) because its fur color.
> 
> A German Shepherd that is white or too short or too big is still considered a German Shepherd... it is just a fault for them to be white!
> 
> This is the main point that Archkronus seemed to be making and I hope to make as well.
> 
> Just like him, I also hate it when people accidentally spread confusion. You have no idea how hard it was when I was learning about shepherds to get through the crap people spread about the breed in MANY areas. Not just this singular topic. I understand what you are trying to say in the long run about the SV because its the original standard for the breed, but the way it comes off is not how I think you mean it to sound.


No. I absolutely do get it. Ya'll just don't get it. No matter how many times you say the White German Shepherd exists. For the SV it doesn't! 

Period! 

There is no such thing as a White German Shepherd and the SV will not and never will acknowledge a White German Shepherd. Under SV regulations, there is and never will be a White German Shepherd. 

You can stand on your hands and dance trying to convince the SV, it'll never happen! Why do you think it took so long to get the Berger Blanc Suisse accepted? Because of the SV.


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## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> No. I absolutely do get it. Ya'll just don't get it.


I get it. 
Those of us who supported recognition of the BBS in the FCI and seek recognition in the AKC are eternally grateful to the SV. We may not agree with their original reasoning for removing the whites but the end result is a new breed that no longer has to apologize for the color of it's coat or deal with the insanity that seems to plague the GSD breed. This would not have been possible if the SV had held on to the whites.


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## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> I get it.
> Those of us who supported recognition of the BBS in the FCI and seek recognition in the AKC are eternally grateful to the SV. We may not agree with their original reasoning for removing the whites but the end result is a new breed that no longer has to apologize for the color of it's coat or deal with the insanity that seems to plague the GSD breed. This would not have been possible if the SV had held on to the whites.


EXACTLY THAT! 

It is the best thing that could have ever happened to the White "German" Shepherd. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

And that is why to me, there is a BBS but not a White German Shepherd. People like you have fought to hard for the recognition of the BBS.


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## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> No. I absolutely do get it. Ya'll just don't get it. No matter how many times you say the White German Shepherd exists. For the SV it doesn't!
> 
> Period!
> 
> There is no such thing as a White German Shepherd and the SV will not and never will acknowledge a White German Shepherd. Under SV regulations, there is and never will be a White German Shepherd.


Good thing we have the AKC, UKC and other real places to get dogs from. In fact since the majority of us are here in America how about we all just refuse to acknowledge the SV.


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## Mrs.K

shepherdmom said:


> Good thing we have the AKC, UKC and other real places to get dogs from. In fact since the majority of us are here in America how about we all just refuse to acknowledge the SV.


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## wolfstraum

Just read through this and am astounded. _ *** Comment removed by ADMIN *** _

The German Shepherd Dog is a breed that ORIGINATED in GERMANY. The motherland of the breed, the ultimate authority for the breed standard is the SV in GERMANY. The GSDCA and AKC are the arms of the SV in teh US, and there are similar organizations in every country that breeds dogs to International Standards....they all are appointed by the SV and continue to represent the SV in their respective countries on the sufferance of the SV.

The US is one of the few countries in the WORLD that does not follow the SV/German Standard. The Standard defines the breed. Without a standard for a breed, a blueprint so to speak, there is no breed. 

When you go to college/school - there is a list of criteria for every degree that you must meet. Without meeting that list, you do not attain your desired degree. If you are going to law school, and take a class for tie dying T-shirts, it means nothing, it does not count. Sure you did it and enjoyed it - but it is not a meaningful class and does not count for anything!!! Every goal, has parameters that you must fulfill in order to reach that goal. Every building built has a blueprint in order for it to be made as expected to be what it was designed as. *The same thing with a breed standard.* Cocker spainels must have a certain coat, Weims a certain color, St Bernards a certain size....if they do not meet those criteria, yes they are disqualified. In today's society, few breeders drown pups or bash their heads into a wall to kill them when they are born if they do not meet the standard of the breed. In past decades that was done commonly. It was acknowledged to have been done by 'old timers'.

Mrs K is German. She grew up in Germany and her parents were well known, highly respected breeders. There may be some issues with some posters here who do not have a high level of reading comprehension and differences in semantics...or these posters may just be ignorant (ie rude) rather than ignorant (unknowledgeable). In either event, it is embarrassing to read some of the comments and statements made here by American posters. 

Everyone loves their pets. No problem with that. But BYB dogs are usually dogs bred by people with no knowledge and too many of these dogs end up in shelters and losing their lives because of the ignorance of the breeders and buyers. That does not mean your dog, whether rescue or BYB or bought for 3000 bucks from some big name showline kennel is any less or more a GSD or less or more loved or valued by you!!! But you wanted a GSD because of what the standard defines the breed to be - the look, the character, the nobility, the protectiveness etc etc. And that definition comes from the SV in Germany.

To the issue of the White color in the breed. By the standard of the mother club, the ultimate authority on the GSD breed in the world, this color cannot exist in the breed. It is not registerable. PERIOD. Mrs K is correct.

In reality, there are white GSDs born. By the standard they do not qualify for papers. But in the US - the land that gives us cockapoos and labradoodles - where there is no quality control in our breed - that allows people to breed "rare" colors in any breed - blue, fawn, isabella Dobes, Blue Weims, the AKC (which is no more an organization for QUALITY than your state's DMV) will register any puppy whose parents have been registered without regard for the breed standard. The GSDCA is a separate entity from the AKC - just like General Motors is not the same as your state's Department of Motor Vehicles which gives you an owners card for your Chevy truck or your Volkswagen Bug!

The White GSD is genetically a GSD - the Swiss breed has been selectively bred from GSD stock and has been accepted as a breed. Just like the GSD was selectively breed from several other breeds 110ish years ago - 

I just don't understand why this took 10 pages and so many childish snotty posts.

This is the GERMAN Shepherd Dog....the SV is THE "owner" of the breed's standard and as such, is the defining authority on what is registerable.

Lee


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## ayoitzrimz

Lee -:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## TAResley

wolfstraum said:


> Just read through this and am astounded by the childishness and pettiness of some of the posts/posters.
> 
> The German Shepherd Dog is a breed that ORIGINATED in GERMANY. The motherland of the breed, the ultimate authority for the breed standard is the SV in GERMANY. The GSDCA and AKC are the arms of the SV in teh US, and there are similar organizations in every country that breeds dogs to International Standards....they all are appointed by the SV and continue to represent the SV in their respective countries on the sufferance of the SV.
> 
> The US is one of the few countries in the WORLD that does not follow the SV/German Standard. The Standard defines the breed. Without a standard for a breed, a blueprint so to speak, there is no breed.
> 
> When you go to college/school - there is a list of criteria for every degree that you must meet. Without meeting that list, you do not attain your desired degree. If you are going to law school, and take a class for tie dying T-shirts, it means nothing, it does not count. Sure you did it and enjoyed it - but it is not a meaningful class and does not count for anything!!! Every goal, has parameters that you must fulfill in order to reach that goal. Every building built has a blueprint in order for it to be made as expected to be what it was designed as. *The same thing with a breed standard.* Cocker spainels must have a certain coat, Weims a certain color, St Bernards a certain size....if they do not meet those criteria, yes they are disqualified. In today's society, few breeders drown pups or bash their heads into a wall to kill them when they are born if they do not meet the standard of the breed. In past decades that was done commonly. It was acknowledged to have been done by 'old timers'.
> 
> Mrs K is German. She grew up in Germany and her parents were well known, highly respected breeders. There may be some issues with some posters here who do not have a high level of reading comprehension and differences in semantics...or these posters may just be ignorant (ie rude) rather than ignorant (unknowledgeable). In either event, it is embarrassing to read some of the comments and statements made here by American posters.
> 
> Everyone loves their pets. No problem with that. But BYB dogs are usually dogs bred by people with no knowledge and too many of these dogs end up in shelters and losing their lives because of the ignorance of the breeders and buyers. That does not mean your dog, whether rescue or BYB or bought for 3000 bucks from some big name showline kennel is any less or more a GSD or less or more loved or valued by you!!! But you wanted a GSD because of what the standard defines the breed to be - the look, the character, the nobility, the protectiveness etc etc. And that definition comes from the SV in Germany.
> 
> To the issue of the White color in the breed. By the standard of the *mother club*, the ultimate authority on the GSD breed in the world, this color cannot exist in the breed. It is not registerable. PERIOD. Mrs K is correct.
> 
> In reality, there are white GSDs born. By the standard they do not qualify for papers. But in the US - the land that gives us cockapoos and labradoodles - where there is no quality control in our breed - that allows people to breed "rare" colors in any breed - blue, fawn, isabella Dobes, Blue Weims, the AKC (which is no more an organization for QUALITY than your state's DMV) will register any puppy whose parents have been registered without regard for the breed standard. The GSDCA is a separate entity from the AKC - just like General Motors is not the same as your state's Department of Motor Vehicles which gives you an owners card for your Chevy truck or your Volkswagen Bug!
> 
> The White GSD is genetically a GSD - the Swiss breed has been selectively bred from GSD stock and has been accepted as a breed. Just like the GSD was selectively breed from several other breeds 110ish years ago -
> 
> I just don't understand why this took 10 pages and so many childish snotty posts.
> 
> This is the GERMAN Shepherd Dog....the SV is THE "owner" of the breed's standard and as such, is the defining authority on what is registerable.
> 
> Lee


The German Shepherd originated in Germany but has changed since. Things change in the world. In England they call a German Shepherd an Alsatian because they did not want the word GERMAN in the name of the dog during the war. American German Shepherds look **** different from British German Shepherds, and those look vastly different in comparison to German German Shepherds. If you go on every little difference we would have 15 breeds of dog by now just out of the German Shepherd lines! I am not saying this is a good thing, but it is a fact!

You point to America over and over again in your post and basically degrade that the AKC has any value. My dog was purchased in England and is registered under The Kennel Club (UK) and is white in color. The Kennel Club also allows whites and is a major registry. 

If SV is the supreme ruler... why are many of the major registries in the world, ignoring the heck out of it? Oh, because it is not logical to ban a dog for it's color. (Max von Stephanitz himself said "A good dog can not be a bad color." and he founded the SV.) Nor was it logical or humane to drown white colored puppies if you really cared about the animal. I think there seems to be a clash between the old generations and new generations. Telling every day dog owners, who come on here curious about their white shepherd, that their dog "is not a German Shepherd", when it has the lineage to be so according to high-standing registries, is a nit-pick and causes a great deal of confusion. 

_ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _

The founding dog of the GSD breed, Horand von Grafrath, SZ1's maternal grandfather was a white German sheepdog named Greif born around 1879. Horand was bred to 35 different bitches, producing 53 litters of which, 140 progeny were registered with the SV. He was also mated three times with his daughters, thus fixing the genetic code into the development of this breed. This genetic code was handed down through his progeny and thus remains with us today. If white was such a horrid fault, I doubt the founder would have used a white sheepdog to develop the breed.

Why was the white colored German Shepherd Dog disqualified? That is a question that only the German SV and the German Shepherd Dog Club of America can answer. The SV was the first to officially eliminate white dogs from the gene pool through the disavowment of the color around 1960. Capt. Max Von Stephanitz, founder of the breed made conflicting statements concerning coat coloration. In his last edition of his book he expressed that a white coat was a sign of "degeneration," but a few paragraphs later he said... "Our GSD's have never been bred with special regard to coloring, which for a working dog is a matter of quite *secondary* consideration." (Lanting, 1990) By mid - 1930's, the Nazi party had began to hold a large number of memberships within the SV party. *The Nazi party continued to exert more and more influence over the SV, until the point where its founder Capt. Max Von Stephanitz was forced out and the white shepherd was soon after fully banned from the SV breed standard.*

I am sure if Max Von Stephanitz was here today he would be livid. As German Shepherd lovers we should be more focused on the health of these dogs than the color. If you look around, health is much more of an issue right now than if a dog is white or sable. To make such a fuss is ignorant and petty. If the animal is healthy and pure blooded... the color should take a back seat much like petty arguments based on the SV standard. The SV who kicked out its FOUNDER. The FATHER of the breed! 

Funny Game of Thrones Example for this debate:

Tywin Lanister(German Shepherd) is a little person(white), but he is still a Lanister(German Shepherd) by blood! His father(SV) may not like it and treats him like a ******* son... but he can't do a **** thing about it. He is what he is! Size and color can not take that away.

Simply put, people should not be told their animal is not a GSD if it has pure blood. That is the only point here. Argue this until you are blue and purple but it is my opinion along with many others. *RESPECT IT.* _ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _
Thank you.


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## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> No. I absolutely do get it. Ya'll just don't get it. No matter how many times you say the White German Shepherd exists. For the SV it doesn't!
> 
> Period!
> 
> There is no such thing as a White German Shepherd and the SV will not and never will acknowledge a White German Shepherd. Under SV regulations, there is and never will be a White German Shepherd.
> 
> You can stand on your hands and dance trying to convince the SV, it'll never happen! Why do you think it took so long to get the Berger Blanc Suisse accepted? Because of the SV.


Yes, the SV. SV SV SV. According to you and the SV.

You are entitled to your own opinion. You can stand on your hands and dance trying to convince everyone your opinion that a German Shepherd that is white is not a German Shepherd at all. You can even try and convince everyone your opinion is the right one and that your opinion is fact, along with the SV, but not everyone is going to follow acts of ignorance. Apologies.


----------



## selzer

_ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _

And if the SV decides tomorrow that working line dogs are not German Shepherd Dogs, and sable dogs are no longer registratable in the SV, Lee will stop owning German Shepherd Dogs even if the AKC still considers them German Shepherds. Or switch over to black and brown dogs. 

I don't think it is good for the white GSDs because it seriously limits the gene pool, specifically if something crops up in the lines, and they want to outcross to eliminate it.


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## NancyJ

Chicagocanine said:


> Personally I don't think further narrowing of an already small gene pool by making the white GSD a separate breed is going to do anything good for these dogs in the future.


I would agree with you and don't see why it is a big deal. I think it has helped the working lines to have "new" old blood in the form of East German and Czech imports.

I do realize that the AKC not the UKC, not the Contintental Kennel Club is the one regognized by the FCI.

I understand why the colors got removed but now that we know these colors are not linked to genetic deficiencies I truly do not understand the SV's logic in not readmitting them, though it is what it is....unless it is the ongoing inbreeding that has to keep you there with the same colors -- but then --- blackxred saddleback is recessive to sable and that has certainly been bred for for quite some time.

Small wonder that in the 80s all colors other than black and red were not excluded from the breed. Glad they were not or we may be having another breed of GSD for working. Didn't someone once say "no good dog is a bad color"?


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## TAResley

selzer said:


> **** Removed by Admin ****
> 
> And if the SV decides tomorrow that working line dogs are not German Shepherd Dogs, and sable dogs are no longer registratable in the SV, Lee will stop owning German Shepherd Dogs even if the AKC still considers them German Shepherds. Or switch over to black and brown dogs.
> 
> I don't think it is good for the white GSDs because it seriously limits the gene pool, specifically if something crops up in the lines, and they want to outcross to eliminate it.


Thank you! :thumbup:


----------



## Mrs.K

TAResley said:


> Yes, the SV. SV SV SV. According to you and the SV.
> 
> You are entitled to your own opinion. You can stand on your hands and dance trying to convince everyone your opinion that a German Shepherd that is white is not a German Shepherd at all. You can even try and convince everyone your opinion is the right one and that your opinion is fact, along with the SV, but not everyone is going to follow acts of ignorance. Apologies.



Not according to me. According to the SV. It isn't my opinion. It is the SV's opinion and that's that! It's not a German Shepherd. 

It doesn't matter what I like or don't like. The SV ruled that the white Shepherd is not to be in the Genepool. It isn't just a rule that's been put in place. It's in place for Generation, period.


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## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> Not according to me. According to the SV. It isn't my opinion. It is the SV's opinion and that's that!
> 
> It doesn't matter what I like or don't like. The SV ruled that the white Shepherd is not to be in the Genepool. It isn't just a rule that's been put in place. It's in place for Generation, period.


Changes nothing I have said. And if you like I can copy past all the areas through this thread where you said "I would never" and "in my opinion". Maybe be more aware of that?


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## Mrs.K

TAResley said:


> Changes nothing I have said. And if you like I can copy past all the areas through this thread where you said "I would never" and "in my opinion". Maybe be more aware of that?


Yes. I would never breed a white German Shepherd because it's banned from the Genepool. Doesn't mean I wouldn't own a Berger Blanc Suisse. If I want to breed white Shepherds, I'm going to breed a Berger but not a German Shepherd. My opinion matters very little but I can still have one.


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## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> Yes. I would never breed a white German Shepherd because it's banned from the Genepool. Doesn't mean I wouldn't own a Berger Blanc Suisse. If I want to breed white Shepherds, I'm going to breed a Berger but not a German Shepherd. My opinion matters very little but I can still have one.


:thumbup:



jocoyn;3390058
I understand why the colors got removed but now that we know these colors are not linked to genetic deficiencies I truly do not understand the SV's logic in not readmitting them said:


> Speaking hypothetically because it's not going to happen, I would guess that temperament would be the bigger issue at this point rather than color, but there's other things to consider, like what makes people think the breeders producing BBS want to be part of the SV or the GSD breed again?


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## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> Yes. I would never breed a white German Shepherd because it's banned from the Genepool. Doesn't mean I wouldn't own a Berger Blanc Suisse. If I want to breed white Shepherds, I'm going to breed a Berger but not a German Shepherd. My opinion matters very little but I can still have one.


 Of course. I respect your opinion. Only reason I've argued it is because I wish people would not use their own bias to the sv or personal opinion to tell someone their animal is not a german shepherd. I would state fact about the sv and also fact about how they are still considered shepherds by xy&z. Let the people decide what they want to believe or follow. Of course what I would do may not be what you would do. I fully recognize that.


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## wolfstraum

_ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _

What is so hard to understand? It is not_* bias*_ towards the SV that people are citing. The SV IS the registry for the breed. It sets the rules. In Germany. Where the breed originated. By the SV's permission, each country sets up a breed club. Without the SVs permission, there is no national breed club. You would have dogs with no registry if the SV withdrew the GSDCA's "license" in the US. The UKC is not a recognized registry. 

Try going out and practicing medicine without a license - or running a restaurant without a permit from the board of health.

What is so difficult to understand about this??? If the SV does not give a permit to a country - there is no GSD registered there. Black, white, red, panda, sable....the SV is the world wide recognized body that permits the breed to be registered. Without papers - you cannot do any AKC sport (with an intact animal) or show or breed. There has to be some structure in dog breeding...same with horses....if you don't have registration papers, you cannot show in a breed show, you cannot register foals, you cannot race or whatever. Without organization and registration, there is no pure bred breed named German Shepherd Dog. 

That the AKC allows whites to get papers is of no consequence to the SV -they let pandas have papers too. I don't have anything against whites, I loved Shadow on Walt Disney...but let the emotion and personal backbiting go - it is childish and ridiculous....the snotty remarks and sarcasm....

I bred a registered Appaloosa mare to a French warmblood stallion. Against the rules of the registry. No papers from the Appaloosa Horse Club. Got papers from the Cheval Francais registry in France. Mare ended up with spots. She has color - but by the rules, she is not an Appaloosa. I am not going to throw hissy fits, smart mouth people in the breed or insist she is still an Appaloosa and should be able to show in their show circuit because she has a few spots. The organization has rules, and it matters not what I think about them....I knew when I did the breeding that I would not have papers or be able to show. RULES. Fact of life - there are rules about everything....just because you don't like them does not mean they aren't there.

Go out and get on the road and go 30 miles over the speed limit or drive the wrong way - tell the cop you don't care about the law - you can do what you want. See where that gets you.

What makes this so hard to understand? 

Lee


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## selzer

Whiteshepherds said:


> :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking hypothetically because it's not going to happen, I would guess that temperament would be the bigger issue at this point rather than color, but there's other things to consider, like what makes people think the breeders producing BBS want to be part of the SV or the GSD breed again?


Yes, but not all white shepherds _are_ BBSs. Two black and tan GSDs can produce a white dog. That is not a BBS. It is a white German Shepherd Dog, and I think that the BBS is going to or has stopped allowing GSDs to be registered as BBS dogs. The AKC does not even recognise the BBS breed. 

In the US, the AKC is what we have for better or for worse. there are other registries and they handle things differently, but the AKC is the one that is associated with this country, as the repuatable breed registry. They allow white dogs and have all along. You can breed white dogs and the pups can be registered, can have full registration. But they are disqualified in the show ring, which I think is stupid. 

Personally, I do not care for the white color. I like the black and brown. I really don't care for blacks, bi-colors, or sables. That is just my personal preference. The black and red dogs with the typical GSD markings appeal to me more than other varieties. But that does not mean I wouldn't fight to keep any of those colors available in the breed. 

There are people who like their white dogs as much as I like my black and brown dogs. The answer is not a new breed, but in order to show their dogs, which can improve the quality of the white dogs, they needed to go to other registries. I think that is sad, I wish the AKC would have allowed a variety of white GSD, when it was clear that the white dogs are not deaf or faulty healthwise.

I want to say, because it was mentioned, that the AKC DOES NOT REGISTER labradoodles or pompoos or any other designer dog breeds. It takes years and a lot of different hoops to get a breed recognized by the AKC. It is not a given that if you put together cross breeds the AKC is going to give them papers. They won't. The AKC is not perfect, but as a registry for pure-bred dogs, they aren't bad. 

The SV is a breed club. They are NOT on the same plane as the AKC. The AKC or the UK are kennel clubs, not breed clubs. Kennel clubs can do much, but they do things across many breeds of dogs, and it simply does not make sense that every dog have a working title in order to be bred, like the SV does, because dogs like shih tsus are not working dogs. And the list goes on. The SV is similar to the GSDCA, only the power in the US is held at the Kennel Club level instead of at the breed club level. So the parent Club is the AKC, and they let the GSDCA deal with the standard, etc. The SV is not the mother club, and the AKC an off shoot. That is simply not true. 

The AKC recognized the breed many years ago, and at that point they adopted the standard for that breed which is slightly different from the SVs standard. And the breed evolves differently in the US than it does elsewhere because of the people in the US being different then the people in the SV. The dogs have evolved in both countries. 

Because the AKC chose to accept the white color and register those dogs, but make it a disqualifying fault, we have a lot more dogs in the US, than in Germany where the whites were completely bred out. For us to follow suit with the SV, that would disenfranchise a lot of people in the US. 

And someone mentioned coats. The long coat is not a disqualifying fault in the AKC. Now I guess they can be bred/shown again in the SV. Should the AKC jump on the bandwagon and remove the fault because the SV has? What would that mean? 

The AKC does not take orders from the SV just because that is where the dog originated. I don't think that it should.


----------



## selzer

Lee, 

People imported German dogs into the US. These dogs were not automatically recognized by the AKC. Many, many dogs were imported and a club set up here in the US. And eventually the AKC accepted the breed into their club. They do not have a license with Germany that Germany can suddenly pull. 

If Germany sends a dog here with SV papers, the dog can be registered with the AKC. It is not necessarily the same the other way around, is it. If I sent my AKC registered dog to Germany, they could not turn around and register it with the SV. The AKC decided to allow a dog that is registered through the nationally recognized club for that country to be registered with them as well. So a dog from England can be registered here, if it comes from the club THEY recognize. The SV has nothing to do with it. The SV cannot tell the AKC that they can no longer register GSDs, or they probably would have, long ago. 

The SV does not have to register AKC dogs with their registry. That is up to the SV.
The AKC does not have to register SV dogs with their registry. That is up to the AKC.

The SV cannot tell the AKC what to do. 
The AKC cannot tell the SV what to do. 

They are apples to oranges.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Lee,
> 
> People imported German dogs into the US. These dogs were not automatically recognized by the AKC. Many, many dogs were imported and a club set up here in the US. And eventually the AKC accepted the breed into their club. They do not have a license with Germany that Germany can suddenly pull.
> 
> If Germany sends a dog here with SV papers, the dog can be registered with the AKC. It is not necessarily the same the other way around, is it. If I sent my AKC registered dog to Germany, they could not turn around and register it with the SV. The AKC decided to allow a dog that is registered through the nationally recognized club for that country to be registered with them as well. So a dog from England can be registered here, if it comes from the club THEY recognize. The SV has nothing to do with it. The SV cannot tell the AKC that they can no longer register GSDs, or they probably would have, long ago.
> 
> The SV does not have to register AKC dogs with their registry. That is up to them.


Actually, the SV can. 

Yes they can, as long as the dog fulfills all the requirements you can even breed with the dog and the puppies can obtain papers.


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## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Yes they can, as long as the dog fulfills all the requirements you can even breed with the dog and the puppies can obtain papers.


So if I sent a dog over that is an AKC Champion, and has a CD, and has its hips and elbows OFA'd they would register that dog and allow it to breed over there? 

So if I imported two dogs, from over there with no titles, had the AKC register them, bred them, and then sent the pups back they would register the puppies with the SV? 

I wonder why people are not just sending their dogs back and forth if they cannot get titles, health screenings, etc.

In any case its the SV who chooses to allow a dog to be registered with the SV, just as the AKC determines whether a dog can be registered with the AKC. The way Lee posted, it sounds like the SV determines whether or not the AKC can register German shepherds at all.

I know some of Odie's ancestors are registered with the Listing of France. So, I guess I did know the SV does allow registration across other countries.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> So if I sent a dog over that is an AKC Champion, and has a CD, and has its hips and elbows OFA'd they would register that dog and allow it to breed over there?
> 
> So if I imported two dogs, from over there with no titles, had the AKC register them, bred them, and then sent the pups back they would register the puppies with the SV?
> 
> I wonder why people are not just sending their dogs back and forth if they cannot get titles, health screenings, etc.
> 
> In any case its the SV who chooses to allow a dog to be registered with the SV, just as the AKC determines whether a dog can be registered with the AKC. The way Lee posted, it sounds like the SV determines whether or not the AKC can register German shepherds at all.
> 
> I know some of Odie's ancestors are registered with the Listing of France. So, I guess I did know the SV does allow registration across other countries.


No. If the dog is gekoered under German rules/judges, than you could take the dog to Germany and breed, if I am not mistaken. 

If you had the dogs registered with the AKC, the dogs titled and gekoered and then a litter, yes, than you can register their pups. Since your dogs already have the pink papers you obviously would keep the originals.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## wolfstraum

The SV is not only the mother breed club - it is the REGISTRY for the German Shepherd in Germany. 

The AKC is an FCI RECOGNIZED organization for many many breeds. It is not a breed club. The GSDCA is a breed club, given license to be the official breed club in the US by the SV. This happens in the Czech Republic, in the Netherlands, in Belgium, etc. All clubs have their approval to oversee the breed in their country by license by the SV. 

The SV threatened to pull the GSD off of the GSDCA about 12 years ago at a WUSV (World Union of German Shepherd clubs) meeting because of the extreme type of the ASL.

They have banned and then unbanned the long coat. The SV has accepted them again with conditions. 

People talk here about "RESPECT" - There are many posters who are professing to love the breed - but they do not respect the standard of the breed. It is very evident - BYB do not respect the breed. They say they love the breed, but do nothing to uphold and respect the integrity of the breed.

Again, I don't dislike the white dogs, I understand that people love their dogs - whether BYB, coated, white, blue, panda, liver or sired by the BSZS or BSP winner....to rant and rave and call names and be sarcastic because YOU (generalization) are in the US and do what ever you want shows a tremendous lack of respect for the integrity of the breed you profess to love.

Lee


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## TAResley

selzer said:


> Yes, but not all white shepherds _are_ BBSs. Two black and tan GSDs can produce a white dog. That is not a BBS. It is a white German Shepherd Dog, and I think that the BBS is going to or has stopped allowing GSDs to be registered as BBS dogs. The AKC does not even recognise the BBS breed.
> 
> In the US, the AKC is what we have for better or for worse. there are other registries and they handle things differently, but the AKC is the one that is associated with this country, as the repuatable breed registry. They allow white dogs and have all along. You can breed white dogs and the pups can be registered, can have full registration. But they are disqualified in the show ring, which I think is stupid.
> 
> Personally, I do not care for the white color. I like the black and brown. I really don't care for blacks, bi-colors, or sables. That is just my personal preference. The black and red dogs with the typical GSD markings appeal to me more than other varieties. But that does not mean I wouldn't fight to keep any of those colors available in the breed.
> 
> There are people who like their white dogs as much as I like my black and brown dogs. The answer is not a new breed, but in order to show their dogs, which can improve the quality of the white dogs, they needed to go to other registries. I think that is sad, I wish the AKC would have allowed a variety of white GSD, when it was clear that the white dogs are not deaf or faulty healthwise.
> 
> I want to say, because it was mentioned, that the AKC DOES NOT REGISTER labradoodles or pompoos or any other designer dog breeds. It takes years and a lot of different hoops to get a breed recognized by the AKC. It is not a given that if you put together cross breeds the AKC is going to give them papers. They won't. The AKC is not perfect, but as a registry for pure-bred dogs, they aren't bad.
> 
> The SV is a breed club. They are NOT on the same plane as the AKC. The AKC or the UK are kennel clubs, not breed clubs. Kennel clubs can do much, but they do things across many breeds of dogs, and it simply does not make sense that every dog have a working title in order to be bred, like the SV does, because dogs like shih tsus are not working dogs. And the list goes on. The SV is similar to the GSDCA, only the power in the US is held at the Kennel Club level instead of at the breed club level. So the parent Club is the AKC, and they let the GSDCA deal with the standard, etc. The SV is not the mother club, and the AKC an off shoot. That is simply not true.
> 
> The AKC recognized the breed many years ago, and at that point they adopted the standard for that breed which is slightly different from the SVs standard. And the breed evolves differently in the US than it does elsewhere because of the people in the US being different then the people in the SV. The dogs have evolved in both countries.
> 
> Because the AKC chose to accept the white color and register those dogs, but make it a disqualifying fault, we have a lot more dogs in the US, than in Germany where the whites were completely bred out. For us to follow suit with the SV, that would disenfranchise a lot of people in the US.
> 
> And someone mentioned coats. The long coat is not a disqualifying fault in the AKC. Now I guess they can be bred/shown again in the SV. Should the AKC jump on the bandwagon and remove the fault because the SV has? What would that mean?
> 
> The AKC does not take orders from the SV just because that is where the dog originated. I don't think that it should.



:thumbup: Lots of good info here! Thank you!


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## Shaolin

selzer said:


> Yes, but not all white shepherds _are_ BBSs. Two black and tan GSDs can produce a white dog. That is not a BBS. It is a white German Shepherd Dog, and I think that the BBS is going to or has stopped allowing GSDs to be registered as BBS dogs. The AKC does not even recognise the BBS breed....


Exactly this!! Thank you!

My WGSD came from two WL Sables who popped a white pup 7-10 generations back on the Bitch's side and a B&T SL/Sable WL cross 9-11 generations back for the Sire. (I don't remember the exact number off the top of my head.) 

If you want a BBS, you go to a BBS breeder. Correct me if I'm wrong by all means, but aren't BBSs being bred for more herding than overall sport/working, thereby having a 'softer' temperment? I know when I was looking, I read that the BBS have a 'softer' temperment than their 'true' GSD counterparts. If I wanted a soft dog, I would've bought a Lab.

And yes, in 2010, the SV lifted the LC ban.


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## wolfstraum

selzer said:


> People imported German dogs into the US. These dogs were not automatically recognized by the AKC. Many, many dogs were imported and a club set up here in the US. And eventually the AKC accepted the breed into their club. They do not have a license with Germany that Germany can suddenly pull.


Absolutely wrong. The AKC only can register the Breed because the SV has given them the license to do so. They can and have been close to rescinding that license. Every country that breeds GSDs agree to recognize the pedigrees of each other country by license given by the SV. 

There are so many misconceptions and half truths in that post that I am sitting here shaking my head in disbelief. 



The AKC is NOT a "club" - it is an all breed registry. The GSDCA is a club.


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## TAResley

wolfstraum said:


> Absolutely wrong. The AKC only can register the Breed because the SV has given them the license to do so. They can and have been close to rescinding that license. Every country that breeds GSDs agree to recognize the pedigrees of each other country by license given by the SV.
> 
> There are so many misconceptions and half truths in that post that I am sitting here shaking my head in disbelief.
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC is NOT a "club" - it is an all breed registry. The GSDCA is a club.


What people do now has little influence on genetics(I mean they do but not for this conversations topic.) If a two registered german shepherd sv standard dogs produce a white dog or bitch.... The dog is a german shepherd no matter what humans want to say. If tomorrow they decide to call a poodle a Pomeranian, that will not change that ex-poodles breeding and blood. Sorry. It will still be a poodle that is called a Pomeranian. This new white Suisse breed obviously is being selected to be a different dog and the genetics and temperament are changing because of that. But the dogs that are born white from pure german shepherds.... Are german shepherds... Regardless of the SV.


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## selzer

I really don't know of anyone calling anyone names but you Lee. You really did not answer my question either. If the SV suddenly decided to drop the working line dogs from being registratable, if they banned the sable and bi-color colors from the breed, what would you do? Would you just say, that's the SV, it's their breed, I must follow whatever they put forth.


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## NancyJ

I do understand. The AKC is THE registry sanctioned by the SV so it must follow their rules. The AKC does not make the rules associated with the breed name German Shepherd Dog. 

By the same token it is only a registry and, unlike the SV, does not set any criteria for breeding registerable stock other than very basic requirements. IOW the AKC does not tow the line in regards to working titles for breeding stock pink papers and the like though I gather there is play between the clubs and the SV in that regard.

My comments were along the lines of why would they not reconsider given there is no adverse health that I know of (unless it is due to the closed breeding of dogs for color but the same could be said of showlines) - and -

What would happen if, all of a sudden, the SV decided that sables were no longer registerable?

As is, we had a nice discussion where working police dogs cannot be koered or otherwise deemed suitable titled for breeding based on their achievements without jumping through the sport hoops.


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## wolfstraum

TAResley said:


> lee, no one here wants to breed a dog that is blind, has bad hips, and has sickness. This is a color debate. You really have no ability to critique others love for the breed or call people ignorant. If you want to resort to being nasty and critical, don't be surprised when you are not taken seriously. Because I know I am part of your reference... I am not in America. Well, I am right now but I am visiting.


Threads take on their own life and go off on tangents - my remarks are less about the white color than about the validity of the authority of the SV. I have no problem with white color - I have friends wiht dogs in other breeds who are off colors and for example, my friends blue Wiem is much more gorgeous IMO than her normal colored one.

The issue I have had throughout this thread is that of early posters (not you at all- I never noticed your name until you chose to start berating me) making comments about the authority and validity of the SV....Mrs K is not a native English speaker. She was explaining the SV rules and got attacked in a childish manner by someone who is ignorant (ie not knowlegable!!) of the facts. Much as I have been attacked in what **I** consider a childish manner by someone who is just as ignorant in the same way. Nor will I exchange or respond to silly nonsensical demands by people who have no background in the breed but producing puppies bred to the AKC's no standard at all.

The thread is now more about rules and validity of authority and relationships of organizations. 

I understand these. I showed, trained and bred horses. In the equine world, there are also FCI rules and organizations, just like in the dog world. I bred horses where the registration had to be done in France as it was not allowed in the breed organization. I have friends who have done the same with Dutch warmbloods. I have shown, trained and bred GSD in the SV system here adn in the AKC obedience ring. I understand and have kept apprised of the politics between the SV/GSDCA/WDA/USCA - the information given here by someone who has NEVER shown or titled a dog in the SV criteria is just plain wrong. The discussion moved far past the white color quite a few pages back.

Lee


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## selzer

wolfstraum said:


> Absolutely wrong. The AKC only can register the Breed because the SV has given them the license to do so. They can and have been close to rescinding that license. Every country that breeds GSDs agree to recognize the pedigrees of each other country by license given by the SV.
> 
> There are so many misconceptions and half truths in that post that I am sitting here shaking my head in disbelief.
> 
> 
> 
> *The AKC is NOT a "club" - it is an all breed registry. The GSDCA is a club*.


The AKC is the American Kennel Club. 

The GSDCA is the German Shepherd Dog Club of America. 

I think they are both clubs, at least how I was using the word. And I think I am fully aware that the AKC is an all-breed registry while the SV is a single-breed registry and club. It is comparing apples to oranges. 

I was not aware that the AKC was relying on permission from Germany to do what they want to do. That had to be pretty dicey during WWII. I suppose the SV gave England the right to call the dogs Asations? Do you have a link where they talk about this license, because I admit that it is totally new to me.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> _ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _ Lee. You really did not answer my question either. If the SV suddenly decided to drop the working line dogs from being registratable, if they banned the sable and bi-color colors from the breed, what would you do? Would you just say, that's the SV, it's their breed, I must follow whatever they put forth.


Not going to happen. If they would. I am pretty sure people would just go over to the RSV or strive to get it registered as a different breed.


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## selzer

I also understand that if the AKC dogs want to be registered by the SV, then they have to meet the SV criteria. And no, I haven't shown or titled in SV rings. Why would I. My folks came out of Germany generations ago and I am in America and have no wish to go back to Germany. My dogs are all AKC, even the import, so I focus on the rules of the club in the country that I am in. 

Was a member othe GSDCA, but there was so much fighting that I dropped them. I am a member of a local club and the GSDCA is the parent club, but they really do not discuss much about the relationship with Germany, and people with German dogs like mine are kind of like red-headed step children.


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## shepherdmom

wolfstraum said:


> Absolutely wrong. The AKC only can register the Breed because the SV has given them the license to do so. They can and have been close to rescinding that license. Every country that breeds GSDs agree to recognize the pedigrees of each other country by license given by the SV.
> 
> There are so many misconceptions and half truths in that post that I am sitting here shaking my head in disbelief.
> 
> 
> 
> The AKC is NOT a "club" - it is an all breed registry. The GSDCA is a club.


You are telling me that if the allmighty SV says AKC can not register the GSD then they will have to stop? Seriously? All I have to say is let them try.... Somehow I don't think that the GSD owners in America will ever agree to stop calling them German Shepherds.


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## TAResley

wolfstraum said:


> Threads take on their own life and go off on tangents - my remarks are less about the white color than about the validity of the authority of the SV. I have no problem with white color - I have friends wiht dogs in other breeds who are off colors and for example, my friends blue Wiem is much more gorgeous IMO than her normal colored one.
> 
> The issue I have had throughout this thread is that of early posters (not you at all) making comments about the authority and validity of the SV....Mrs K is not a native English speaker. She was explaining the SV rules and got attacked in a childish manner by someone who is ignorant (ie not knowlegable!!) of the facts. Much as I have been attacked in what **I** consider a childish manner by someone who is just as ignorant in the same way.
> 
> The thread is now more about rules and validity of authority and relationships of organizations.
> 
> I understand these. I showed, trained and bred horses. In the equine world, there are also FCI rules and organizations, just like in the dog world. I bred horses where the registration had to be done in France as it was not allowed in the breed organization. I have friends who have done the same with Dutch warmbloods. I have shown, trained and bred GSD in the SV system here adn in the AKC obedience ring. I understand and have kept apprised of the politics between the SV/GSDCA/WDA/USCA - the information given here by someone who has NEVER shown or titled a dog in the SV criteria is just plain wrong. The discussion moved far past the white color quite a few pages back.
> 
> Lee



I was also in the equine world. Loved it while it lasted. I fully understand and agree with you this has turned political. Honestly, my frustration with this entire thread is that it turned political because the SV was referenced so much as the know all end all. There are many people who get confused with a dog being mixed and not being a true german shepherd or not being a sv standard german shepherd. I was like that at one time. I just hope in the future people can be more clear when they say things vs using a bias or using one view to TELL people their dog is not a shepherd. I and a few others felt that is how mrs.k came across. Those others may not be as we'll informed but I think their opinions are still valid to an extent. For me I simply want to clear the bias and put all the opinions and views on the table for the owners of the dogs to decide for themselves. There is no need to push opinions and tell someone their animal is not this or that based on those things alone. Too many factors here to have a clean answer of yes or no. To say so and assume one side of the fence is fully correct seems wrong.


----------



## selzer

Mrs. K the SV has made changes over the years. The latest was in allowing long coats again. A lot of people thought that would not happen. 

Coat length and color is really something that shouldn't be causing such arguments. But it does. Because it actually matters a lot more to people than they let on they would like to admit. 

Why would the SV suddenly not disallow a color. They did before.


----------



## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> You are telling me that if the allmighty SV says AKC can not register the GSD then they will have to stop? Seriously? All I have to say is let them try.... Somehow I don't think that the GSD owners in America will ever agree to stop calling them German Shepherds.


No, they will probably just call them German Shepards since half the population already calls them that. :laugh:


----------



## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> Not going to happen. If they would. I am pretty sure people would just go over to the RSV or strive to get it registered as a different breed.


Valid question.


----------



## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> No, they will probably just call them German Shepards since half the population already calls them that. :laugh:


Course we just might all switch to using Berger Blanc Suisse for all the colors to get around the breed bans. 

** Please note the wink I'm just kidding**


----------



## wolfstraum

American Kennel Club - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The AKC is not an FCI member registry. 

Fédération Cynologique Internationale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The breed clubs exist without the AKC and petition to become members so that the breed can participate in AKC shows. Many breeds do not want to be AKC recognized due to the lack of quality controls in AKC.

In Germany, many breeds have strict criteria for registration. Viszla's for example must pass hunting tests prior to being allowed to produce registered puppies, just like GSDs have to pass the IPO testing.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Mrs. K the SV has made changes over the years. The latest was in allowing long coats again. A lot of people thought that would not happen.
> 
> Coat length and color is really something that shouldn't be causing such arguments. But it does. Because it actually matters a lot more to people than they let on they would like to admit.
> 
> Why would the SV suddenly not disallow a color. They did before.



No, they only allowed the long stock coat which has an undercoat. The true long coat without an undercoat is still banned and probably won't be accepted either. 

Who knows what is in the future, I cannot see them allowing the white Shepherd back into the registry anytime soon though and I definitely can't see them banning the sables.


----------



## TAResley

shepherdmom said:


> Course we just might all switch to using Berger Blanc Suisse for all the colors to get around the breed bans.


No, I like my German Shepherd and all of his white and the temperament and drive he has. The bbs has a different temperament and look.  I like my German Shepherd.... I call him an Alsatian though because I honestly like that nick name more. He's English blood lines so he has quite a flat back and the long coat. Love my goober! Me and my husband both adore him. His hips and elbow scores are being done after August and we are going for his TDI title!


----------



## Mrs.K

shepherdmom said:


> Course we just might all switch to using Berger Blanc Suisse for all the colors to get around the breed bans.
> 
> ** Please note the wink I'm just kidding**


Right. Just kidding... you are kidding yourself right now. At least be honest about it! You've shown throughout the topic what you think about the SV.


----------



## TAResley

selzer said:


> _ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _ Lee. You really did not answer my question either. If the SV suddenly decided to drop the working line dogs from being registratable, if they banned the sable and bi-color colors from the breed, what would you do? Would you just say, that's the SV, it's their breed, I must follow whatever they put forth.


I do want to get lees answer to this question out of curiosity. Even if it is a big IF.


----------



## wolfstraum

TAResley said:


> I was also in the equine world. Loved it while it lasted. I fully understand and agree with you this has turned political. Honestly, my frustration with this entire thread is that it turned political because the SV was referenced so much as the know all end all. There are many people who get confused with a dog being mixed and not being a true german shepherd or not being a sv standard german shepherd. I was like that at one time. I just hope in the future people can be more clear when they say things vs using a bias or using one view to TELL people their dog is not a shepherd. I and a few others felt that is how mrs.k came across. Those others may not be as we'll informed but I think their opinions are still valid to an extent. For me I simply want to clear the bias and put all the opinions and views on the table for the owners of the dogs to decide for themselves. There is no need to push opinions and tell someone their animal is not this or that based on those things alone. Too many factors here to have a clean answer of yes or no. To say so and assume one side of the fence is fully correct seems wrong.


the written word can be taken many different ways emotionally as there are no tones of voice to interpret.

Mrs K is correct from the perspective of registration. The White GSD is not papered in Germany. Period. It does nto exist AS A GSD. Not trying to hurt feelings! You say you have an equine background? Ok - lets take this to a parallel situation!

When 2 Quarter Horses produced appaloosa colored foals in the 50's - the AQHA would not register those foals. They were not Quarter Horses (QH). QHs did not come with white blankets and spots. Yet two very famous appaloosa stallions were born from two solid colored parents. Colida and Wapiti. If AQHA had the same rules as AKC, you'd see spotted horses in the AQHA ring....that is the function of a breed club - to define the parameters of the breed.

The QH is a man made breed - just like the GSD. The breed standard was arbitrary and man made as well....just like the SV made the standard for the GSD. 

It is now understood that in the foundation of the breed there were horses with spots and those produced solid colored horses with genetic markers that indicated that they could produce color. Same as with the white GSD. Now we understand genetics better. I can pick out a solid horse carrying app genes - 20 years ago I saw a buckskin QH mare whose owners were amazed that she produced nice blanketed foals to a bay Arabian stallion....they did not educate themselves as to why. She had mottled skin under her tail and on her muzzle, and her feet were striped under black legs - genetic markers. They had AQHA papers on her. 

If the SV were to pull the permit of the GSDCA/AKC to register the breed, the breed in this country would be renamed American Shepherd or something akin to that....dogs bred to SV standards would probably be issued papers in an alternate registry....personally I would continue to breed to that standard. 

Lee


----------



## selzer

wolfstraum said:


> American Kennel Club - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The AKC is not an FCI member registry.
> 
> Fédération Cynologique Internationale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The breed clubs exist without the AKC and petition to become members so that the breed can participate in AKC shows. Many breeds do not want to be AKC recognized due to the lack of quality controls in AKC.
> 
> In Germany, many breeds have strict criteria for registration. Viszla's for example must pass hunting tests prior to being allowed to produce registered puppies, just like GSDs have to pass the IPO testing.


Ok, I read that. I understand the FCI. I do not see where Germany issues the AKC a license to register dogs here in the US. 

I do understand that there has to be some type of understanding between the SV and the AKC, in order for each to register dogs with the other registration, or to allow foreign dogs to compete in each other's shows. I know that the AKC has the SV listed for accepted clubs in Germany that they will register dogs from. 

But we are not members of the FCI, and are not governed by the SV in any way that I can find in either of the links you provided. I guess it would just shock me to know end if the AKC suddenly announced that they can no longer register GSDs because Germany pulled their license. That is totally a foreign concept. 

The AKC licenses clubs to put on AKC events etc. If they pull their license from a local club the local club would not be able to put together an event where AKC championship points, and AKC title legs could be earned. But I don't think anyone is talking about that.


----------



## Mrs.K

Lee is absolutely correct with the QH. It's the same thing. If people cannot accept the GSD for what it is, than maybe they should pick a different breed.


----------



## selzer

I really don't think we are ridiculing the SV. I have great respect for the SV. I have great respect for a lot of people, vets, and organizations, but that does not mean they cannot ever be wrong about something. 

We can all agree that the Continnental Kennel Club is not licensed or given a permit by the SV to register GSDs. But they do. How can they. They call them German Shepherds Don't they. And the ACA? 

I still want to find where this permit is coming through that we would have to rename our breed if the SV said we had to.


----------



## TAResley

wolfstraum said:


> the written word can be taken many different ways emotionally as there are no tones of voice to interpret.
> 
> Mrs K is correct from the perspective of registration. The White GSD is not papered in Germany. Period. It does nto exist AS A GSD. Not trying to hurt feelings! You say you have an equine background? Ok - lets take this to a parallel situation!
> 
> When 2 Quarter Horses produced appaloosa colored foals in the 50's - the AQHA would not register those foals. They were not Quarter Horses (QH). QHs did not come with white blankets and spots. Yet two very famous appaloosa stallions were born from two solid colored parents. Colida and Wapiti. If AQHA had the same rules as AKC, you'd see spotted horses in the AQHA ring....that is the function of a breed club - to define the parameters of the breed.
> 
> The QH is a man made breed - just like the GSD. The breed standard was arbitrary and man made as well....just like the SV made the standard for the GSD.
> 
> It is now understood that in the foundation of the breed there were horses with spots and those produced solid colored horses with genetic markers that indicated that they could produce color. Same as with the white GSD. Now we understand genetics better. I can pick out a solid horse carrying app genes - 20 years ago I saw a buckskin QH mare whose owners were amazed that she produced nice blanketed foals to a bay Arabian stallion....they did not educate themselves as to why. She had mottled skin under her tail and on her muzzle, and her feet were striped under black legs - genetic markers. They had AQHA papers on her.
> 
> If the SV were to pull the permit of the GSDCA/AKC to register the breed, the breed in this country would be renamed American Shepherd or something akin to that....dogs bred to SV standards would probably be issued papers in an alternate registry....personally I would continue to breed to that standard.
> 
> Lee


 I've fully understood what you and mrs.k have been saying. I know by the sv it is not a good thing for a german shepherd to be white, but I personally do not let the sv be the end all know all. I know that may sound blasphemous to you and mrs.k, but again... The sv did kick out the founder of the breed and were also directed by nazis to remove the whites. I do not respect that. I rather respect the founder... Not the organization that removed him and bent down to hitlers standard. So that is why the sv weighs less heavily in my mind. Again, I have pointed that is my personal opinion but it is also facts as is mrs.ks argument. other facts for me is that the AKC and TKC(uk) which are major registry recognize a german shepherd for what it is regardless of color. Yes, I know that the sv is a breed club, but to me the sv is not the end all know all for many reasons. I respect both sides of the fence. The sv could call my dog a chinchilla and I would still know what he really is.


Again, iPads typing! Ahh! Going to pull my hair out.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> Nothing low about it and I'm not calling any names either.
> I don't see where it is political either.
> 
> Lee is absolutely correct with the QH. It's the same thing. If people cannot accept the GSD for what it is, than maybe they should pick a different breed.


I just think to take something that for no other reason than color and make it a whole other breed, that blows my mind. If genetically it is a GSD. If its momma was a GSD. And its papa was a GSD, then how can it be a carrot, or a peekapoo, or a BBS. 

I find that people who accept that the breed can come in white are actually accepting the GSD for what it is. And they should not make it another breed. 

Perhaps by making it another breed, it will become another breed, and I can only see that as a degradation of the dogs themselves. 

And why? Because someone with power at some point decided to eliminate them. 

In the AKC there is a white German Shepherd Dog. It does exist. It exists in the US. It used to exist in the SV too. Now it doesn't. That is sad.


----------



## jessac

I chimed in much earlier in this conversation and am probably one of the sarcastic posters Lee keeps referring to. Being a wgsd owner, I guess what rubbed me the wrong way was all this round and round talk of my dog not EXISTING when I've got this great tempered, lovely dog running around my yard that I refer to as a gsd. And when people ask what dog it is, what should I say? BBS? White shepherd? German shepherd? American shepherd? (Most people guess he's part wolf...). I knew when I got my pup that his coat color was a fault within the gsd breed, but I guess it never came up that he didn't even belong in the breed and was some other dog. It's frustrating that this is so political because I don't care much for politics. This whole debate honestly made me wonder if I'm even in the right forum? Should I try and find one more suited to my dog since he's not a gsd anymore. If people here don't think my dog is a real gsd then maybe I should move on. I enjoy this forum since I have similar stories and problems, but feel a little intimidated by the politics.


----------



## wolfstraum

anyone who is a WDA or a USCA member understands the relationships between the various clubs and which club is "in charge" of the breed. The parent breed club in the country of origin. There was a big to do in Akita's many years back - and the mother club in Japan was the club who made the decisions about AKC registering the breed in the US - the Border collie was governed by their mother club in the UK and did not want to get AKC recognition according to many BC people I knew...

The information is all over but not in one nice little package - too bad it is not as there is too much misinformation out there.

Lee


----------



## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> _ *** Removed by ADMIN *** _
> Lee is absolutely correct with the QH. It's the same thing. If people cannot accept the GSD for what it is, than maybe they should pick a different breed.


No, I like my German Shepherd. I love him white. He is a German Shepherd along with many other German Shepherds that are white. You, the SV, and a few other can, and I am sure will, turn black and blue mad about it but that changes nothing. I fully accept the GSD breed no matter what COLOR it is. Color is the last thing this breed has issues with. If a dog is born with a malformed leg, it is still the same breed. But if it is white and we call it a GSD it is not a GSD? I find that hysterical. Again, I respect your view but if you expect people to continue to do so... You can not bash them when they do not like the sv or do not agree with you. There was no need to do that.


----------



## Mrs.K

TAResley said:


> No, I like my German Shepherd. I love him white. He is a German Shepherd along with many other German Shepherds that are white. You, the SV, and a few other can, and I am sure will, turn black and blue mad about it but that changes nothing. I fully accept the GSD breed no matter what COLOR it is. Color is the last thing this breed has issues with. If a dog is born with a malformed leg, it is still the same breed. But if it is white and we call it a GSD it is not a GSD? I find that hysterical. Again, I respect your view but if you expect people to continue to do so... You can not bash them when they do not like the sv or do not agree with you. There was no need to do that.


You really didn't get the point at all. 

I have never said that I do not like white Shepherds. In fact because I do like them I am glad that they finally have their own Breed Registry as the Berger Blanc Suisse. 

I don't care what you call your dog because it doesn't matter what you or I accept or won't accept. In the end, the SV is who makes the Standard and that is what the rules are.


----------



## selzer

wolfstraum said:


> anyone who is a WDA or a USCA member understands the relationships between the various clubs and which club is "in charge" of the breed. The parent breed club in the country of origin. There was a big to do in Akita's many years back - and the mother club in Japan was the club who made the decisions about AKC registering the breed in the US - the Border collie was governed by their mother club in the UK and did not want to get AKC recognition according to many BC people I knew...
> 
> The information is all over but not in one nice little package - too bad it is not as there is too much misinformation out there.
> 
> Lee


I am not interested in Akitas or Border Collies or the Working Dog Association. I am only concerned with the AKC and the SV and the German Shepherd Dog, so that should narrow it down some. 

I can put together a club tomorrow that recognizes only dogs with SV registration and follows SV criteria. So the WDA or the USCA could have determined whichever standard they want to follow, their governing body would make that choice. 

The AKC does have a standard for the GSD and it is not exactly the same as the SV's standard. The dogs are still called GSDs. So there ARE white German Shepherd Dogs.


----------



## selzer

Mrs.K said:


> You really didn't get the point at all.
> 
> I have never said that I do not like white Shepherds. In fact because I do like them I am glad that they finally have their own Breed Registry as the Berger Blanc Suisse.
> 
> I don't care what you call your dog because it doesn't matter what you or I accept or won't accept. In the end, the SV is who makes the Standard and that is what the rules are.


Actually, all White GSDs are not BBSs. And, the AKC made a standard too, and it does include white dogs.


----------



## wolfstraum

> I chimed in much earlier in this conversation and am probably one of the sarcastic posters Lee keeps referring to. Being a wgsd owner, I guess what rubbed me the wrong way was all this round and round talk of my dog not EXISTING when I've got this great tempered, lovely dog running around my yard that I refer to as a gsd. And when people ask what dog it is, what should I say? BBS? White shepherd? German shepherd? American shepherd? (Most people guess he's part wolf...). I knew when I got my pup that his coat color was a fault within the gsd breed, but I guess it never came up that he didn't even belong in the breed and was some other dog. It's frustrating that this is so political because I don't care much for politics. This whole debate honestly made me wonder if I'm even in the right forum? Should I try and find one more suited to my dog since he's not a gsd anymore. If people here don't think my dog is a real gsd then maybe I should move on. I enjoy this forum since I have similar stories and problems, but feel a little intimidated by the politics.


No - I was not referring to you either...there is something on the forum for everyone...I don't participate in agility discussions for example - as that is not my area of interest - you don't enjoy the political discussions -ok, but no reason to leave the forum...just ignore them!

white GSD exists....it is disqualified, and not recognized in Germany. As **I** said, I loved the white GSD Shadow in old Disney shows - I don't have a problem with anyone breeding any dog when they do it with some care and concern for quality in temperament and health!!! Just because there is a discussion about the politics and the rules and regulations of various organization is no reason to leave a forum!

Personally, I try to adhere as closely to SV breeding standards as I can because I like the credentials that show my dogs adhere to the German standard of the German Shepherd dog. I don't have alot of respect for any breeder who keeps more dogs than they can afford, breeds females who have health or breeding problems and who do next to nothing with their dogs. I do respect people who own any type of GSD who love them and do their best to care for them regardless of whatever issues they have. White, blue, panda, or purple! Long coated, short coated, cross eyed. It is never the dogs fault that they are born and everyone is here because they love the GSD. 

Lee


----------



## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> You really didn't get the point at all.
> 
> I have never said that I do not like white Shepherds. In fact because I do like them I am glad that they finally have their own Breed Registry as the Berger Blanc Suisse.
> 
> I don't care what you call your dog because it doesn't matter what you or I accept or won't accept. In the end, the SV is who makes the Standard and that is what the rules are.


And what I am saying is I do not think the SV has that much weight. For starters, they kicked out their founder and the founder of the breed.... Until they take the ability away from the kennel clubs to have whites banned from being registered, I will always recognize my dog as a white GSD. Even if the sv does do that, I will still recognize my dog as a GSD because its basic genetic make up IS that of a GSD. Also, the SV kicked out its founder! They guy who fathered the GSD! When he is resurrected and tells me a dog is not a GSD because it is white, I will bow down and agree. That will not happen.


----------



## TAResley

wolfstraum said:


> No - I was not referring to you either...there is something on the forum for everyone...I don't participate in agility discussions for example - as that is not my area of interest - you don't enjoy the political discussions -ok, but no reason to leave the forum...just ignore them!
> 
> white GSD exists....it is disqualified, and not recognized in Germany. As **I** said, I loved the white GSD Shadow in old Disney shows - I don't have a problem with anyone breeding any dog when they do it with some care and concern for quality in temperament and health!!! Just because there is a discussion about the politics and the rules and regulations of various organization is no reason to leave a forum!
> 
> Personally, I try to adhere as closely to SV breeding standards as I can because I like the credentials that show my dogs adhere to the German standard of the German Shepherd dog. I don't have alot of respect for any breeder who keeps more dogs than they can afford, breeds females who have health or breeding problems and who do next to nothing with their dogs. I do respect people who own any type of GSD who love them and do their best to care for them regardless of whatever issues they have. White, blue, panda, or purple! Long coated, short coated, cross eyed. It is never the dogs fault that they are born and everyone is here because they love the GSD.
> 
> Lee


 See that is all I wanted to hear really. " the white GSD exists but is just not recognized by xy&z." Thank you. This was my point the entire time to mrs.k.


----------



## TAResley

selzer said:


> I am not interested in Akitas or Border Collies or the Working Dog Association. I am only concerned with the AKC and the SV and the German Shepherd Dog, so that should narrow it down some.
> 
> I can put together a club tomorrow that recognizes only dogs with SV registration and follows SV criteria. So the WDA or the USCA could have determined whichever standard they want to follow, their governing body would make that choice.
> 
> The AKC does have a standard for the GSD and it is not exactly the same as the SV's standard. The dogs are still called GSDs. So there ARE white German Shepherd Dogs.


This.... But my dog is from The Kennel Club(UK version of AKC.) so that included.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> Actually, all White GSDs are not BBSs. And, the AKC made a standard too, and it does include white dogs.


The AKC is _one _registry. You do realize that there is a world outside the United States? 

That is why there is a Berger Blanc Suisse, because of that outside world. You know, Europe. That little "_communist_" Continent?


----------



## jessac

That is what frustrated me also, the whole 'existing' part of the conversation. I think we all realize whites are disqualified from showing/ not SV standard, but I would guess many traditional colored gsds are also not bred to the standards of the sv (at least here in the states). I usually avoid political discussions but this struck a nerve BC I happen to love my wgsd (and yes, still tell people he's a gsd)


----------



## wolfstraum

lol lol lol the breed started about 110 years ago. It was developed from several other breeds....just like the QH. The white was bred away from quickly as the white blended into the sheep.....I read it in von Stephanitz' book....but darn if I feel like sifting through that 500/700 page tome to find it again!!! Sure Max v S ran afoul of others in the Phalanx Club - politics is never far from the top....but don't think he wanted a white variety....

The SV did threaten to pull the breed from the GSDCA and the AKC about 12 years ago at a WUSV meeting because of the direction of the ASL...I talked to someone who attended the meeting. It was over the extreme conformation - a GS Review was put on an overhead projector and the dogs who were pictured were crucified - I think Dr. Landau was the GSDCA rep in attendance...he was given 10 years to get the breed moving back in the direction of the SV dog....(show line - the working dogs are the illegitimate children of the SV LOL) - Following that, several big breeders - Frank Tate and Darby Dan in the forefront started bringing in WGSL and mixing them into the ASLs - and showing a few here and there - setting a trend up and many ASL breeders did a cross over or two.....and the GSDCA started showcasing the WDA more to the SV to show they were trying.....

While so many here are poo-pooing the SV - just remember there would be NO GSD at all without the SV because that is the organization that organized the breed....

Lee


----------



## TAResley

jessac said:


> That is what frustrated me also, the whole 'existing' part of the conversation. I think we all realize whites are disqualified from showing/ not SV standard, but I would guess many traditional colored gsds are also not bred to the standards of the sv (at least here in the states). I usually avoid political discussions but this struck a nerve BC I happen to love my wgsd (and yes, still tell people he's a gsd)


That's what made me make an account and posted. The word "existed" was used so firmly over and over. And how firm Mrs.K was about the dog is not a german shepherd without referencing to the SV at times or wording it to sound like there was no way a white dog could exist. That was false and it drove me to clear that up... And obviously drove a few others to do that as well.


----------



## wolfstraum

I need smilies.....

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

Examples are used when people cannot seem to comprehend the written word. :headbang:


Lee


----------



## Mrs.K

jessac said:


> That is what frustrated me also, the whole 'existing' part of the conversation. I think we all realize whites are disqualified from showing/ not SV standard, but I would guess many traditional colored gsds are also not bred to the standards of the sv (at least here in the states). I usually avoid political discussions but this struck a nerve BC I happen to love my wgsd (and yes, still tell people he's a gsd)


To the SV the dog doesn't exist. What you and I feel doesn't matter. We can say it exists but to the SV itself, it doesn't. Don't get hurt over it.


----------



## jessac

wolfstraum said:


> I need smilies.....
> 
> :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
> 
> Examples are used when people cannot seem to comprehend the written word. :headbang:
> 
> 
> Lee


I need wine..lol


----------



## TAResley

wolfstraum said:


> lol lol lol the breed started about 110 years ago. It was developed from several other breeds....just like the QH. The white was bred away from quickly as the white blended into the sheep.....I read it in von Stephanitz' book....but darn if I feel like sifting through that 500/700 page tome to find it again!!! Sure Max v S ran afoul of others in the Phalanx Club - politics is never far from the top....but don't think he wanted a white variety....
> 
> The SV did threaten to pull the breed from the GSDCA and the AKC about 12 years ago at a WUSV meeting because of the direction of the ASL...I talked to someone who attended the meeting. It was over the extreme conformation - a GS Review was put on an overhead projector and the dogs who were pictured were crucified - I think Dr. Landau was the GSDCA rep in attendance...he was given 10 years to get the breed moving back in the direction of the SV dog....(show line - the working dogs are the illegitimate children of the SV LOL) - Following that, several big breeders - Frank Tate and Darby Dan in the forefront started bringing in WGSL and mixing them into the ASLs - and showing a few here and there - setting a trend up and many ASL breeders did a cross over or two.....and the GSDCA started showcasing the WDA more to the SV to show they were trying.....
> 
> While so many here are poo-pooing the SV - just remember there would be NO GSD at all without the SV because that is the organization that organized the breed....
> 
> 
> 
> Lee


I am "poopooing" the SV because it was not the SV who founded the breed, it was a man they removed from the picture that made this dog and he has my highest respect and appreciation. I appreciate the SV for having a standard but I do not appreciate its stupidity in this topic. I think that is understandable. I also have quotes from him that he said he did not favor the whites but did not breed for color. It was the last thing on his mind. Not favoring something and banning it is two different things. When the nazi party took over the father of the breed who founded the SV was removed from the SV and shortly after the whites were banned. I found that a bit shady that his remarks about whites and then his removal and the ban of whites were so close together. I find that odd and quite shady.


----------



## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> To the SV the dog doesn't exist. What you and I feel doesn't matter. We can say it exists but to the SV itself, it doesn't. Don't get hurt over it.


I think we are all free to voice that is ignorant on the part of the SV, but many people do not care what the SV thinks. many people care more about the bloodline or the registration. Many care more about the AKC standard or the TKC Standard. As long as you can not get hurt about that, then everyone is at an understanding.


----------



## TAResley

jessac said:


> I need wine..lol


I have over $1000 in wine and beer here for a wedding in may. I'd offer to split a bottle with everyone in here but the Internet has its restrictions. Haha. On a side note, I am happy to say I have learned a few things. Regardless of disagreements, I respect everyone who had the guts to say what they think! Thank you guys for sharing. I know all of us want to strangle one another, but at the end of the day we love our dogs! Thank god there are people out there as passionate as us!


----------



## selzer

I read Max's book. He had a lot of knowledge about dogs and dog breeds. He was not a saint. Actually, some of what he wrote I do not agree with at all. But as I got smacked pretty good the last time I brought that up, I will let that lie. 

Others have said that he was not a really great breeder. 

I don't know. He certainly founded a breed that I love. 

But what someone does in their thirties or forties, might be very different than what they condone in their sixties or seventies. Maybe the SV ousted him, maybe he left, maybe it was for all the right reasons, maybe it was for all the wrong reasons. It is ancient history now. The SV understood that just because someone begins a thing, does not mean they have ownership of that thing, that they will always take it in the direction that it should go, that they will always make the right decisions. Sometimes we start a thing and it takes on a life of its own, and sometimes others take a thing that we started into another dimension. Life is rarely black and white, it rarely follows a linear progression. 

Now some of the same people who have been fighting hard for the SV in this conversation condemn them hotly when it comes to what wins in SV rings. Then, I suppose it is ok to diss the SV. 

But that probably makes me petty, snotty, or sarcastic.


----------



## TAResley

selzer said:


> I read Max's book. He had a lot of knowledge about dogs and dog breeds. He was not a saint. Actually, some of what he wrote I do not agree with at all. But as I got smacked pretty good the last time I brought that up, I will let that lie.
> 
> Others have said that he was not a really great breeder.
> 
> I don't know. He certainly founded a breed that I love.
> 
> But what someone does in their thirties or forties, might be very different than what they condone in their sixties or seventies. Maybe the SV ousted him, maybe he left, maybe it was for all the right reasons, maybe it was for all the wrong reasons. It is ancient history now. The SV understood that just because someone begins a thing, does not mean they have ownership of that thing, that they will always take it in the direction that it should go, that they will always make the right decisions. Sometimes we start a thing and it takes on a life of its own, and sometimes others take a thing that we started into another dimension. Life is rarely black and white, it rarely follows a linear progression.
> 
> Now some of the same people who have been fighting hard for the SV in this conversation condemn them hotly when it comes to what wins in SV rings. Then, I suppose it is ok to diss the SV.
> 
> But that probably makes me petty, snotty, or sarcastic.


I tried to follow your point at the end here and I think I missed it! I really want to understand it though! Lol! Legate!


----------



## Jack's Dad

Just curious. If you left the SV out of it, then should every country or organization be allowed to make up their own standard?

We all love the breed but should we be able to have multiple standards?

For the record color is the last thing I care about.


----------



## TAResley

Jack's Dad said:


> Just curious. If you left the SV out of it, then should every country or organization be allowed to make up their own standard?
> 
> We all love the breed but should we be able to have multiple standards?
> 
> For the record color is the last thing I care about.


In an ideal world there would be one standard, but sadly this is not an ideal world so the german shepherd as been screwed with far too much. Now we have many looks and colors that are accepted by some to be registered but if that does not fit the SV or their own standard... The difference is a fault. Today people care less about the standard and go for the traits that they find attractive. I do not see this as an issue if it comes to color but it can be an issue when it comes to health and the original "frame" of the dog.


----------



## Jack's Dad

TAResley said:


> In an ideal world there would be one standard, but sadly this is not an ideal world so the german shepherd as been screwed with far too much. Now we have many looks and colors that are accepted by some to be registered but if that does not fit the SV or their own standard... The difference is a fault. Today people care less about the standard and go for the traits that they find attractive. I do not see this as an issue if it comes to color but it can be an issue when it comes to health and the original "frame" of the dog.


I would agree with you regarding color but where does it stop. Already there are those who think we should have a " pet market" GSD with a mellower temperament etc...

Do we make dogs to suit peoples tastes or should people gey the breed that is right for them? Not necessarily the one they like.


----------



## TAResley

Jack's Dad said:


> I would agree with you regarding color but where does it stop. Already there are those who think we should have a " pet market" GSD with a mellower temperament etc...
> 
> Do we make dogs to suit peoples tastes or should people gey the breed that is right for them? Not necessarily the one they like.


I believe people are making that breed. It is called the BBSs and the American Alsatian. I think there will always be changes in dogs regardless if we want it to happen or not. A pit bull now looks different from a pit bull back in the day. It is something that is hard to control. People will be people and also nature sometimes makes its own quirks over time!


----------



## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> Just curious. If you left the SV out of it, then should every country or organization be allowed to make up their own standard?
> 
> We all love the breed but should we be able to have multiple standards?
> 
> For the record color is the last thing I care about.


I don't know. The breed is utilitarian. It is a shepherd. In Germany wolves have long gone extinct according to Mrs. K. Here in the US, and some other places wolves and coyotes are a reality. So we might have imported the breed because of what the dog was. 

As time goes on, and the need for the dog to be able to guard sheep from non-human predators goes down in its nation of origin, then maybe the dog no longer makes sense for people in other areas to continue to import them, because the dogs that are imported no longer follow that function. Should the breed not be utilized to protect sheep against wolves, coyotes and other dogs here because in its nation of origin this is no longer necessary? 

Ok, lets move on. Also with sheep herding. From what has been discussed in my very American-based GSD Club. How we herd here is different than how dogs are used for herding in Germany. Here we generally own pasture land, and the dog's side gait is used to be a virtual fence around the flock. There, the shepherd moves the the sheep along highways keeping the sheep out of the fields (farms), and away from the road where the cars might run them over. I guess it is two different methods of herding, using different characteristics. I actually know someone with sheep that uses American dogs to herd them. And I know another person who came as an adult from Germany, and has been back many times, and has watched dogs working sheep over there. 

Should both dogs follow the exact same form? How about a dog that tends sheep in mountainous regions, might that require a different type? 

People brought the dogs here years ago and started breeding them and using them in many ways here, before they were recognized by the AKC. I think it is really unrealistic to think that regional differences will not cause differences in the dogs over time. There are many more generations of dogs in 100 years, than there are in humans.


----------



## Mrs.K

> The breed is utilitarian. It is a shepherd. In Germany wolves have long gone extinct according to Mrs. K.


They are coming back though.


----------



## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> They are coming back though.


Doesn't extinct mean wiped out? So they were endangered? That is sad!


----------



## Mrs.K

TAResley said:


> Doesn't extinct mean wiped out? So they were endangered? That is sad!


No, we did not have any wolves at all since we basically had killed them by the 20th century. They crossed the boarder. They are illegal immigrants 

The Return of Wolves to Germany: "Fears Are Being Stoked" - SPIEGEL ONLINE


----------



## Shaolin

I'm gonna ask a stupid question that hopefully will get some honest answers.

To the breeders on this thread: If you mated a set of dogs and they dropped a white pup, what would you do? Would you cull the pup immediately and pretend it didn't happen? Sell the pup as pet only on a speuter contract, forbidden to register/do sports/work? Speuter the white pup producing dogs as they both need to carry the gene? Never mate that combo again?

What would you do?


----------



## Mrs.K

Shaolin said:


> I'm gonna ask a stupid question that hopefully will get some honest answers.
> 
> To the breeders on this thread: If you mated a set of dogs and they dropped a white pup, what would you do? Would you cull the pup immediately and pretend it didn't happen? Sell the pup as pet only on a speuter contract, forbidden to register/do sports/work? Speuter the white pup producing dogs as they both need to carry the gene? Never mate that combo again?
> 
> What would you do?



No culling. Nothing wrong with sport or work. But most definitely speuter!

I have yet to see a working line kennel producing white dogs, though. I know we've never produced a single one. We did have one or two long stock coats but never a white pup.


----------



## NancyJ

Of course you could just do like they did for probably the first 10,000 years or more of domestication and put together dogs by function and not have a stud book.......In some ways that is what terriermen and hunters do over here. 

Certainly a lot of folks are crossing the GSD, Mals, Dutchies to make working dogs. I don't think most people who actually work dogs care about much more than working ability.

From what I gather the gene pool of virtually all purebred dogs did not start with enough stock to avoid genetic bottlenecking down the road. Then who cares what it is called?


----------



## selzer

I have never produced a white pup. I personally believe that it is up to the buyer to choose to spay or neuter or not. If I choose not to because I feel it is healthier and my dog might be longer lived with their reproductive organs in place, than I would not force anyone else to spay or neuter their pet, or even suggest it for color alone. I would only suggest it if the temperament of the dog was such that the owner proved unable to manage/contain it. 

I would sell the dog as a pet, on a limited registration.


----------



## TAResley

Shaolin said:


> I'm gonna ask a stupid question that hopefully will get some honest answers.
> 
> To the breeders on this thread: If you mated a set of dogs and they dropped a white pup, what would you do? Would you cull the pup immediately and pretend it didn't happen? Sell the pup as pet only on a speuter contract, forbidden to register/do sports/work? Speuter the white pup producing dogs as they both need to carry the gene? Never mate that combo again?
> 
> What would you do?


I plan to stud and I have a mentor. If it was my bitches litter... I would register the pup with the rest of the litter and sell it as a pet on a speuter contract like the rest of the pups unless the buyer could prove to me they could be responsible. I would not lift the ban until the dog meet the health/temperament standard and could improve the breed. Of course, I would breed FOR white and long-coat which is not standard(color) or switches from being standard to not standard(coat). My opinion is probably not what you're looking for, for a few reasons but I wanted to share! ;P


----------



## Mrs.K

Ignore this post. Wrong topic


----------



## selzer

And the ACA and the CKC and the UKC can register the breed because the SV gives them a license to do so?

And the American Kennel Club is not a club. It's just called a club for some strange reason.


----------



## Shaolin

Mrs.K said:


> No culling. Nothing wrong with sport or work. But most definitely speuter!
> 
> I have yet to see a working line kennel producing white dogs, though. I know we've never produced a single one. We did have one or two long stock coats but never a white pup.


Interesting. No offense, but I would've thought you would have hidden the fact that any of your dogs produced a white pup; speuter, no registration, and no ability to do anything to show off the dog. Would you re-mate the combination or would it be a no go? I would happily take any 'non desirable' dog you produced. 



selzer said:


> I have never produced a white pup. I personally believe that it is up to the buyer to choose to spay or neuter or not. If I choose not to because I feel it is healthier and my dog might be longer lived with their reproductive organs in place, than I would not force anyone else to spay or neuter their pet, or even suggest it for color alone. I would only suggest it if the temperament of the dog was such that the owner proved unable to manage/contain it.
> 
> I would sell the dog as a pet, on a limited registration.


Very nice.




TAResley said:


> I plan to stud and I have a mentor. If it was my bitches litter... I would register the pup with the rest of the litter and sell it as a pet on a speuter contract like the rest of the pups unless the buyer could prove to me they could be responsible. I would not lift the ban until the dog meet the health/temperament standard and could improve the breed. Of course, I would breed FOR white and long-coat which is not standard(color) or switches from being standard to not standard(coat). My opinion is probably not what you're looking for, for a few reasons but I wanted to share! ;P


Nothing wrong with it! Personally, I would love to help bring a more rounded WGSD into existance. They generally have a softer temperment and you don't see them in Sch often. I'd kill for BRs to a first generation white pup off of a very strong working line.


----------



## shepherdmom

Mrs.K said:


> Right. Just kidding... you are kidding yourself right now. At least be honest about it! You've shown throughout the topic what you think about the SV.


You are telling me the SV say's that the dog that was my heart for 13+ years never existed. That there is no such thing. How about if I tell you Indura doesn't exist there is no such dog. How would you react? I don't care about their all mighty powerful breed standard or their stupid rules. They don't recognize my dog, then I refuse to recognize their supposed authority. 

That doesn't mean I wasn't kidding about calling all German Shepherds, BBS's to get around breed restrictions. That was a joke.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> I would agree with you regarding color but where does it stop. Already there are those who think we should have a " pet market" GSD with a mellower temperament etc...
> 
> Do we make dogs to suit peoples tastes or should people gey the breed that is right for them? Not necessarily the one they like.


Well the pet market votes with their money. Without us the sport/show people couldn't afford to keep going. So maybe they should listen to our input occasionally.


----------



## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> Just curious. If you left the SV out of it, then should every country or organization be allowed to make up their own standard?
> 
> We all love the breed but should we be able to have multiple standards?
> 
> For the record color is the last thing I care about.


My answer to this would be yes. I'm no breeder but from what I've read on here it seems to me a majority of the problems can be traced back to a few main dogs, if we have more main dogs to choose from and to cross with then future bottlenecks would hopefully be limited.


----------



## wolfstraum

shepherdmom said:


> Well the pet market votes with their money. Without us the sport/show people couldn't afford to keep going. So maybe they should listen to our input occasionally.



The pet market is why there are so many BYB. Why there are so many animals abandoned and killed in shelters. If there was not a huge pet market who refused to understand and appreciate what a well bred dog is and what it takes to produce one, and who buys a cheap BYB and supports that segment of breeders - the breed would be much much much better off. Not to mention all those poor dogs bred for the pet market who die because they were disposable.

Lee


----------



## TAResley

wolfstraum said:


> The pet market is why there are so many BYB. Why there are so many animals abandoned and killed in shelters. If there was not a huge pet market who refused to understand and appreciate what a well bred dog is and what it takes to produce one, and who buys a cheap BYB and supports that segment of breeders - the breed would be much much much better off. Not to mention all those poor dogs bred for the pet market who die because they were disposable.
> 
> Lee


This is true. I wish it was not. I hate it when I see "free shepherd". Morons. Luckily that is not the ENTIRE population of pet owners. There are _quality_ pet owners out there who should have a say. That would be nice. For example, my dog is our pet and family member *FIRST* and a stud *LAST*.


----------



## shepherdmom

jessac said:


> I chimed in much earlier in this conversation and am probably one of the sarcastic posters Lee keeps referring to. Being a wgsd owner, I guess what rubbed me the wrong way was all this round and round talk of my dog not EXISTING when I've got this great tempered, lovely dog running around my yard that I refer to as a gsd. And when people ask what dog it is, what should I say? BBS? White shepherd? German shepherd? American shepherd? .


I'm pretty sure it was me she was referring too.  But I took it like you did. What the **** do you mean my dog doesn't exist? :angryfire: You were nicer about it than I was.


----------



## Castlemaid

There were a few notifies on this thread by a number of people - I went through and cleaned up the childish, snotty, sarcastic, back and forth pettiness, and deleted a number of posts that added absolutely nothing to the discussion. 

I'm glad to see everyone sharing their wine and relaxing and getting along now. 

Let's keep it that way. 

*ADMIN*


----------



## shepherdmom

wolfstraum said:


> The pet market is why there are so many BYB. Why there are so many animals abandoned and killed in shelters. If there was not a huge pet market who refused to understand and appreciate what a well bred dog is and what it takes to produce one, and who buys a cheap BYB and supports that segment of breeders - the breed would be much much much better off. Not to mention all those poor dogs bred for the pet market who die because they were disposable.
> 
> Lee


The pet market is also the one that saves them from shelters and that puts in hours of volunteer work to save them through rescue. I have yet to see a breeder or sports person out there in the trenches.


----------



## Castlemaid

shepherdmom said:


> The pet market is also the one that saves them from shelters and that puts in hours of volunteer work to save them through rescue. I have yet to see a breeder or sports person out there in the trenches.


I PERSONALLY know breeders and sports people that are very active in rescue. 

I also PERSONALLY know breeders and sports people that go ABOVE and BEYOND what many pet breeders would do to make sure that no dog of theirs EVER ends up in a shelter or rescue, spending much money and effort to get dogs in need back and find them a good home. 

Please refrain from such unfounded general accusations.


----------



## gsdsar

shepherdmom said:


> The pet market is also the one that saves them from shelters and that puts in hours of volunteer work to save them through rescue. I have yet to see a breeder or sports person out there in the trenches.


Not a breeder or sports person, but i do have working GSD, and I am VERY active in my breed rescue. I foster, rehab, home visit, reference call. I know lots of active working/sport people working hand in hand with rescue. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## shepherdmom

Castlemaid said:


> I PERSONALLY know breeders and sports people that are very active in rescue.
> 
> I also PERSONALLY know breeders and sports people that go ABOVE and BEYOND what many pet breeders would do to make sure that no dog of theirs EVER ends up in a shelter or rescue, spending much money and effort to get dogs in need back and find them a good home.
> 
> Please refrain from such unfounded general accusations.


How is it an unfounded general accusation by saying I have never seen one. I'm not lying.


----------



## arycrest

wolfstraum said:


> ...
> The SV did threaten to pull the breed from the GSDCA and the AKC about 12 years ago at a WUSV meeting because of the direction of the ASL...I talked to someone who attended the meeting. It was over the extreme conformation - a GS Review was put on an overhead projector and the dogs who were pictured were crucified - I think Dr. Landau was the GSDCA rep in attendance...he was given 10 years to get the breed moving back in the direction of the SV dog....(show line - the working dogs are the illegitimate children of the SV LOL) - Following that, several big breeders - Frank Tate and Darby Dan in the forefront started bringing in WGSL and mixing them into the ASLs - and showing a few here and there - setting a trend up and many ASL breeders did a cross over or two.....and the GSDCA started showcasing the WDA more to the SV to show they were trying.....
> 
> While so many here are poo-pooing the SV - just remember there would be NO GSD at all without the SV because that is the organization that organized the breed....
> 
> Lee


I remember when this happened. I've belonged to an ASL email list for the past 16 years and it was all the members could talk about for a long time (at that time the members included just about all the GSDCA BOD, and a lot of the members, etc.). Until that happened, I had no idea that the SV "owned" the GSD breed and could pull that "ownership" from the GSDCA and AKC.


----------



## Shaolin

Castlemaid said:


> I PERSONALLY know breeders and sports people that are very active in rescue.
> 
> I also PERSONALLY know breeders and sports people that go ABOVE and BEYOND what many pet breeders would do to make sure that no dog of theirs EVER ends up in a shelter or rescue, spending much money and effort to get dogs in need back and find them a good home.
> 
> Please refrain from such unfounded general accusations.


You might know them, but she doesn't. I know of several sports people and people who consider themselves to be breed purists who would never set foot in a shelter, or ever get a dog from a rescue because they consider them inferior to a dog they paid an arm and a leg for.

Since I've been on this forum, I've been happy and blessed to meet breeders and sportsmen alike who will treat and love 'shelter puppies' the same way as they treat the dog they spent tens of thousands of dollars on. *Before* I came on this forum, outside of breeders keeping their dogs out of shelters, I didn't know any breeder/sports person who would rescue a dog. 

It might be a general statement and it may be in an accusatory tone, but it's not unfounded...IMHO.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

arycrest said:


> I remember when this happened. I've belonged to an ASL email list for the past 16 years and it was all the members could talk about for a long time (at that time the members included just about all the GSDCA BOD, and a lot of the members, etc.). Until that happened, I had no idea that the SV "owned" the GSD breed and could pull that "ownership" from the GSDCA and AKC.


They could have pulled the breed from the AKC and prohibited the GSDCA from using the breed name, but had no control over the actual dogs correct? Did people talk about what would have happened to the dogs registered as AKC GSD's? Did they talk about doing a name change and putting the dogs in the FSS? I bet that gave some people a few extra gray hairs.


----------



## TAResley

I have a feeling this is going to be the top thread on The Breed Standard section for a long time. I may make it a point to just remove myself from it so I don't bust a blood vessel or go crazy. Good luck Lads and Ladies!  Still a very educational read if you have the patients to read it from the beginning to here! I'm sure I will be back. I have the willpower of a rock when it comes to keeping my opinion to myself. Fuuh. ~_~


----------



## wolfstraum

well - I've pulled dogs out of shelters - I have transported, done home visits, networked, donated money - quite a bit of money...paid vet bills on dogs in need and talked people into getting rescues instead of buying puppies, been available for assistance and advice to people who are caring for puppies and whelping dams...not just GSD people either.

Arycrest - thanks for that post....glad someone else knew about that situation as it is not just documented for public consumption.

Lee


----------



## arycrest

Whiteshepherds said:


> They could have pulled the breed from the AKC and prohibited the GSDCA from using the breed name, but had no control over the actual dogs correct? Did people talk about what would have happened to the dogs registered as AKC GSD's? Did they talk about doing a name change and putting the dogs in the FSS? I bet that gave some people a few extra gray hairs.


That's my understanding ... that if the SV had prohibited AKC/GSDCA from using the GSD name, the dogs would have been called by another breed name. IMHO I'm proud to own a GSD and would hate to have to call my dogs American Shepherds or whatever name was selected. I'm glad they worked it out.

I can't recall any talk about pulling the GSDs from AKC if they had been forced to rename the breed. I don't recall any talk about the FSS but this was hundreds/thousands of emails 12 years ago so I can't say for certain it wasn't discussed.


----------



## TAResley

Castlemaid said:


> There were a few notifies on this thread by a number of people - I went through and cleaned up the childish, snotty, sarcastic, back and forth pettiness, and deleted a number of posts that added absolutely nothing to the discussion.
> 
> I'm glad to see everyone sharing their wine and relaxing and getting along now.
> 
> Let's keep it that way.
> 
> *ADMIN*


:thumbup:


----------



## arycrest

wolfstraum said:


> ...
> Arycrest - thanks for that post....glad someone else knew about that situation as it is not just documented for public consumption.
> 
> Lee


I must admit I was shocked when I read this thread, I "_assumed_" everyone knew about the dispute and threat to pull the breed "ownership".


----------



## wolfstraum

well the average pet owner or BYB does not follow the politics of the breed - heck most of the sports people who train don't bother to follow the nuances of the politics that go on between the GSDCA/WDA/USCA/SV....

Lee


----------



## Shaolin

arycrest said:


> I must admit I was shocked when I read this thread, I "_assumed_" everyone knew about the dispute and threat to pull the breed "ownership".


Nope. Didn't know that was something that could happen and it's not something that pops up in A Google search on "German Shepherd Dog being removed from AKC" or "German Shepherd Dog, AKC, Breed Ownership" does not produce any results on the dispute. Was very interesting to learn that.

Was it based on registering Whites and LCs as GSDs only, or was it because of the deviation from the SV Standard due to breeding for extreme angulation and size that seemed to explode in the early to mid 90s?


----------



## Mrs.K

wolfstraum said:


> well - I've pulled dogs out of shelters - I have transported, done home visits, networked, donated money - quite a bit of money...paid vet bills on dogs in need and talked people into getting rescues instead of buying puppies, been available for assistance and advice to people who are caring for puppies and whelping dams...not just GSD people either.
> 
> Arycrest - thanks for that post....glad someone else knew about that situation as it is not just documented for public consumption.
> 
> Lee


I am a working home too since I am continuing with SAR. (It is just where my heart is) and I do consider myself a breed snob but that doesnt mean that you cannot be active in Rescue.
I had two supposed gsd mixes as fosters. And another GSD as Foster that would have probably ended up euthanized. 
There are plenty of breeders, working and sports people out there in Rescue. 

As for the SV, yes they can pull the license and I truly hope that People can finally wrap their mind around the color thing. It is just like it is with the Quarter Horses, Appies and Paints. There is no difference. We may not like it but that is the way it is and that is why we have a breed standart.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## arycrest

Shaolin said:


> ...
> Was it based on registering Whites and LCs as GSDs only, or was it because of the deviation from the SV Standard due to breeding for extreme angulation and size that seemed to explode in the early to mid 90s?


Not that I recall ... I think it had more to do with the AKC GSDs in general. Even using the AKC GSD standard, you can see from pictures the structural changes over the years.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

Does anyone feel that supporting the AKC is similar to supporting a BYB? 
If you (no one in particular) believe the AKC contributes to the problems in the breed wouldn't registering your dogs and taking part in their shows be a show of support for their efforts? 

Just wondering how people feel about this because the AKC was brought up so many times in this thread in a negative light.


----------



## Shaolin

arycrest said:


> Not that I recall ... I think it had more to do with the AKC GSDs in general. Even using the AKC GSD standard, you can see from pictures the structural changes over the years.


That's what I figured. The standard as a whole, but the dogs look was probably the final straw. Here's a good one. As a kid, I thought B&Ts were the ugliest dogs out there and I never wanted that color when I got older just because of the extreme angulation and the fact they didn't walk right. The Sables, Blacks, and Bi-Colors were more appealing to me as a whole. I thought the color of the dog caused the look.

It's not that no one understands it, Mrs. K, but with all due respect, it was how you said it. You could have said, "The SV considers the White Coat a very serious fault and they do not allow the registration, showing, and breeding of White Coated GSD." Instead, you ruffled the feathers of every White Shepherd owner by saying that "There is no such thing..." "They do not exist..." "White coated shepherds are not real, they are a different breed.

I've looked at dozens of SV websites since this debate started and they all say it's a DQ'er, but they acknowledge that a white dog can drop from a pairing of two 'normal' GSDs. They do not say that they aren't real, they don't exist, and that they aren't GSDs.


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## wolfstraum

Whiteshepherds said:


> Does anyone feel that supporting the AKC is similar to supporting a BYB?
> If you (no one in particular) believe the AKC contributes to the problems in the breed wouldn't registering your dogs and taking part in their shows be a show of support for their efforts?
> 
> Just wondering how people feel about this because the AKC was brought up so many times in this thread in a negative light.


The AKC is a registry with no control over the quality of dogs bred. I compared it to your state Motor Vehicle Department because that is the basic function - registration with identification of origin and ownership. The reason that the AKC is not FCI member - as I have been told is that there is no control over criteria for breeding registered dogs. They have some specific type of approval as the only organization in the US whose pedigrees and registrations are allowed to be recognized internationally, but fall short of being eligible for FCI membership.

It is not supporting BYB to use AKC - it is supporting BYB to use Continental KC, American Pet Registry or UKC who will let you register a litter from a dog who has non breeding AKC papers.

It is up to breeders to enforce Quality Control....there are a few tools given to breeders by AKC - minimal really, but useful....The DNA requirements for males who breed more than 3 females a year for example, some minimal age limits (too young IMO) and the oft discussed and dissed LIMITED REGISTRATION. The individual breed clubs are supposedly in charge of setting the standard for the breed. INTERPRETATION is the bugaboo here....

If more WGSL or Euro WL breeders and owners would make a concerted organized effort to break into this world, things could be changed - but it would be a hard road to replace the "look" desired by the ASL judges....But this is where it would have to be done. Showing the Euro dogs in performance is a start....a few WGSL dogs have been sucessfully shown and finished in teh ring....but hey, you pay the biggest name handler in the breed to take the dog in, you are going to get points sooner than later. 

BYB and commerical breeders are just too numerous to overcome....the average pet owner does not educate himself - he wants a pointy eared, tan with black saddle dog and does not think he should spend $$$$ because he says "I just want a pet" - and wants that $300 or even $500 puppy he sees every week in the Sunday classifieds. When you look at the statistics of numbers of litters and individual registrations for the breed (published a few years ago, but not available that I can find now) - there is no way that nearly 50,000 registered litters were produced by breeders of WGSL/WL/ASL....the majority of those litters were BYB....

IMO - Quality control - ie working and health certifications required for registration - is the only thing that would stem the production of BYB - and this being America - it just ain't gonna happen!

Lee


----------



## shepherdmom

wolfstraum said:


> It is not supporting BYB to use AKC - it is supporting BYB to use Continental KC, American Pet Registry or UKC who will let you register a litter from a dog who has non breeding AKC papers.



Lots and lots of good SAR dogs are UKC. I don't consider them to be BYB dogs.


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## Andaka

shepherdmom said:


> Lots and lots of good SAR dogs are UKC. I don't consider them to be BYB dogs.


But what annoys us as breeders about the UKC is that they will grant full registration to a dog that the breeder has sold with a limited AKC registration.


----------



## selzer

I agree, that UKC would have a better standing if they honored the limited registration. I understand that the AKC might let people get around their limited registration also though. 

It is sad that that really doesn't mean what it could mean. 

But the UKC allows the white Germand Shepherd dogs to be shown, which allows the fanciers of those dogs an avenue to prove their conformation and get championships. 

So it is kind of a toss up. For typical GSDs I wouldn't want anything to do with the UKC. But if I knew someone who wanted a white one, I would suggest someone who shows UKC, and hopefully has AKC papers on the dog.


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## Shaolin

Doesn't the UKC do "All Around" shows? To get a Ch., you have to not only look good, but show some kind of working ability through OB?


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## selzer

No one wants to touch the fact that all the junk registries register GSDs. I cannot believe the SV gives them a license to do so. But for some reason the AKC needs permission to use the name -- that is really strange to me.


----------



## Liesje

The UKC is not a "junk registry" and plenty of people with very good GSDs (working even) from great breedings participate in UKC events. The UKC is over 100 years old and places high emphasis on work and performance, not just conformation (Total Dog awards). If you don't like the UKC then don't register dogs or participate but get it straight before lumping it in with APRI, ConKC, etc. Several of the most titled, successful (not just sport but SAR and Service work) GSDs I know are regular participants in our UKC events.


----------



## selzer

Liesje said:


> The UKC is not a "junk registry" and plenty of people with very good GSDs (working even) from great breedings participate in UKC events. The UKC is over 100 years old and places high emphasis on work and performance, not just conformation (Total Dog awards). If you don't like the UKC then don't register dogs or participate but get it straight before lumping it in with APRI, ConKC, etc. Several of the most titled, successful (not just sport but SAR and Service work) GSDs I know are regular participants in our UKC events.


But they give full registration to AKC dogs with limited registrations. That's awful. What is their reasoning behind that?


----------



## Whiteshepherds

This article does a good job pointing out the core differences between the AKC and UKC and how it's affected their growth in recent years if anyone is interested in reading it or isn't familiar with the UKC. 
The Big Picture | Canine Chronicle


----------



## Liesje

selzer said:


> But they give full registration to AKC dogs with limited registrations. That's awful. What is their reasoning behind that?


Why is it awful? Why would they care about AKC limited registration? They give full registration to dogs with verifiable pedigrees. I don't deal with AKC limited registration so I don't know all the nuances with that, but I guess I don't get why they would limit participation in their organization because of someone's agreement with a different organization.


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## selzer

The whole point of a limited registration is to protect dogs so that they do not land as breeding stock. I am not a fan of a limited registration. It costs just as much to breed, whelp, and raise a pet puppy as it does to raise a show prospect/breeding prospect. But if for some reason you cut the price of a puppy on a limited registration, or you feel for some reason, example would be a trial breeding, maybe an inbreeding that you did to find what recessive genes are present, but you do not want those puppies bred. Or if the dog has some fault, minor or major, like a white or blue coat, and you do not want that puppy bred. 

There are people out there that will for the sake of color alone, pandas, blues, livers, and perhaps whites, though they are relatively common, will breed a dog without consideration of all else. In the past a breeder would simply cull such a puppy, meaning kill it right at birth. Other breeders would give the puppy without papers. But we have a such thing as a limited registration so that these dogs are not used soley to forward a fault.

Often the people get the dogs with a limited registration for a fraction of the cost. And then they turn around and register it with UKC and breed away. It is not like they need to get titles or championship points, or a breed survey to breed in the UKC. So it is not like anyone is looking at the dog and saying, oh it has this major fault, it should not be bred, sorry. 

I guess maybe breeders should just cull the puppies they feel should not be bred from the get go. Or speuter them at eight weeks of age. Or sell them without any papers.


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## Liesje

Registration status has never prevented people from breeding and selling dogs. IMO it should not be used to screen buyers. If you don't trust someone then don't sell them a dog. I personally would not agree with an one organization determining what dogs can participate in another organization. We already had this fight with WDA vs. USCA and just see how popular the "JA" is. 

UKC does not have a "limited registration" like the AKC does so I still don't understand why they are a "junk registry" for not caring how another registration issues papers? A dog is either UKC registered or not. They offer events, shows, Total Dog...they are not the breeding police. It is not the UKC's fault that people use AKC full registration as a way to market dogs. That is a problem people obsessed with AKC have created. As I said the UKC has existed for over 100 years and their events continue to grow while the AKC declines. If you don't like it, don't participate but no reason to bash it just because it's not the AKC.


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## wolfstraum

UKC was primarily a hunting/performance registry from way back....I had friends that raised coonhounds - Plotts, Curs, Blueticks, Walkers....went to shows and night trials with them - actually won the PA State Championship LOL LOL was handed that years National Bluetick Champion to run as his owner had broken a leg and I had been out enough to know the basics of the game. I went to conformation shows. 

I never said it was a 'junk' registry....I don't appreciate that people with limited registration can breed and register pups with it. 

Limited registration is there to protect the dog in the event of something happening to the owner, and the integrity of the program producing the dog. It is no different that the SV requiring titles, hips etc prior to allowing pups to be registered. 

I had a friend who wanted a pup but we disagreed about the limited. He bought an import female. He was 45 years old, a health care professional....and fell down dead in his living room (RIP )....his dogs got put down (older, not friendly male) or rehomed (this young female), the female washed out with the next handler - a couple of years later I found her on a website living in a kennel along with a number of other non titled females pumping out puppies....I feel bad for that dog because she was a pampered, well loved pet.... If she had had limited papers, maybe a pet home would have been found for her instead of what she ended up as.

Lee


----------



## Liesje

Lee I don't get what that has to do with the UKC? How would UKC limited registration prevent what happened to that dog?

UKC does not have limited registration, so you can't "breed and and register" pups with limited registration. Dogs are either registered or not, and the requirements differ based on breed. It was actually more difficult for me to UKC register my GSD (who had AKC full papers) than it was to do the AKC full registration.

There are many ways of protecting dogs from being bred and registered, non are failproof, but UKC limited registration probably ranks quite near the bottom as far as effectiveness. The only people I know of that are trying to market dogs based on *UKC* registration are a few people who have been banned by the AKC and this is pretty much common knowledge so it's easy to avoid these breeders regardless of how they register their dogs now.

The UKC issued a statement on this matter a while back and their position is that AKC limited registration does not prevent people from breeding dogs, only prevents them from registering them with the AKC. They recommend that if you truly are trying to prevent breeding and using papers as leverage, all you have to do is hold the dog's papers until you feel the buyer has met the terms of your contract (spay/neuter, dog has earned titles and health, etc).


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## wolfstraum

I was explaining my feelings about limited registration - why I believe it is valuable. I also noted the story of the female as if she had not had full papers, the dog may have just been placed in a pet home instead of being put in a run and bred and bred and bred.

I don't know if UKC even has a limited registration option....

I do know that no matter how carefully you select buyers - caca happens and the dogs end up somewhere you would never have let them go....no system is perfect, no breeder is clairvoyant and can foresee everything...but what little I can do to protect the pups in the future, I will do.

Lee


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## Liesje

No, they do not have a limited registration, there are just registered dogs and LP dogs (for spayed/neutered dogs and mixes). You do not automatically get a UKC registration with AKC Limited, there are other requirements as well (at least for GSDs....I had to submit a pedigree, photos, and affidavit and that was with AKC *full* registration, I'm not sure what kind of research they do but I know recently they have been scrutinizing certain breeds). They have other means of protecting dogs than limited registration.


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## Jax08

wolfstraum said:


> I was explaining my feelings about limited registration - why I believe it is valuable. I also noted the story of the female as if she had not had full papers, the dog may have just been placed in a pet home instead of being put in a run and bred and bred and bred.


I'm not sure about that. BYB's don't always care about papers. I think it's hard to blame a registry for the lack of ethics in people.Unfortunately, what would have saved this dog would have been planning for her in the event of the owner's death beforehand. Poor girl.


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## selzer

In the AKC the papers go with the dog. I know that some people withold papers until the check clears, etc, but that is not really proper, is against AKC rules, so you really can't withold papers altogether until requirements are met, not in the AKC. 

The only way you can guaranty that the dog will not be bred is to speuter puppies. And some of us won't do that. The next best thing is to give a limited registration in order to ensure that if the people breed the dog, they will not be able to ask for a price that will encourage them to breed over and over again. 

And yes, you do not sell a dog if you do not trust the owners to make good decisions for their dogs. But people get sick, people die, and sometimes that pup does not come back to you.


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## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> In the AKC the papers go with the dog. I know that some people withold papers until the check clears, etc, but that is not really proper, is against AKC rules, so you really can't withold papers altogether until requirements are met, not in the AKC.
> 
> The only way you can guaranty that the dog will not be bred is to speuter puppies. And some of us won't do that. The next best thing is to give a limited registration in order to ensure that if the people breed the dog, they will not be able to ask for a price that will encourage them to breed over and over again.
> 
> And yes, you do not sell a dog if you do not trust the owners to make good decisions for their dogs. But people get sick, people die, and sometimes that pup does not come back to you.


It would also go against SV rules. Papers always go with the dog.


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## shepherdmom

Liesje said:


> The UKC is not a "junk registry" and plenty of people with very good GSDs (working even) from great breedings participate in UKC events. The UKC is over 100 years old and places high emphasis on work and performance, not just conformation (Total Dog awards). If you don't like the UKC then don't register dogs or participate but get it straight before lumping it in with APRI, ConKC, etc. Several of the most titled, successful (not just sport but SAR and Service work) GSDs I know are regular participants in our UKC events.


:thumbup:


----------



## shepherdmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> This article does a good job pointing out the core differences between the AKC and UKC and how it's affected their growth in recent years if anyone is interested in reading it or isn't familiar with the UKC.
> The Big Picture | Canine Chronicle


Thanks for the link. Interesting read.


----------



## arycrest

selzer said:


> I agree, that UKC would have a better standing if they honored the limited registration. I understand that the AKC might let people get around their limited registration also though.
> 
> It is sad that that really doesn't mean what it could mean.
> 
> But the UKC allows the white Germand Shepherd dogs to be shown, which allows the fanciers of those dogs an avenue to prove their conformation and get championships.
> 
> So it is kind of a toss up. For typical GSDs I wouldn't want anything to do with the UKC. But if I knew someone who wanted a white one, I would suggest someone who shows UKC, and hopefully has AKC papers on the dog.


I would agree 100% with you IF the limited registration was used exclusively to protect the genetic pool BUT a lot of breeders sell full registration for XXX amount of dollars over the price they charge for their puppies, thus defeating the whole purpose of the limited registration. I guess I'd have more respect for limited registration if AKC prohibited this practice.

UKC allows WHITE SHEPHERDS as a separate breed while still allowing white coated dogs registered as GSDs to show in the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG Ring ... thus two dogs which may even share the same gene pool a generation or two back, can compete against each other in the group judging.


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> The only way you can guaranty that the dog will not be bred is to speuter puppies. And some of us won't do that.


Sorry off topic, but

I've seen tons of threads on the subject of speuter, but never one on breeders feelings on this subject. I am curious why won't you speuter puppies? Is it the same reasons as the anti-speuter people, or are their different reasons?


----------



## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> Sorry off topic, but
> 
> I've seen tons of threads on the subject of speuter, but never one on breeders feelings on this subject. I am curious why won't you speuter puppies? Is it the same reasons as the anti-speuter people, or are their different reasons?


I think the reasons are the same. For me, I feel the dog is healthier with their reproductive organs intact, and that many forms of cancer are linked to spay/neuter surgeries. I believe that for myself, and I don't believe something different for other people. I also believe that the dogs will not grow/develop the way nature intended without the hormones. 

I don't speuter adults either unless they have a serious issue with their reproductive parts.


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> I think the reasons are the same. For me, I feel the dog is healthier with their reproductive organs intact, and that many forms of cancer are linked to spay/neuter surgeries. I believe that for myself, and I don't believe something different for other people. I also believe that the dogs will not grow/develop the way nature intended without the hormones.
> 
> I don't speuter adults either unless they have a serious issue with their reproductive parts.


Thanks.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

arycrest said:


> UKC allows WHITE SHEPHERDS as a separate breed while still allowing white coated dogs registered as GSDs to show in the GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG Ring ... thus two dogs which may even share the same gene pool a generation or two back, can compete against each other in the group judging.


It'll probably be that way for a long time, I don't think it can be avoided. It'll be interesting to see if and how the dogs differ structurally as time goes on.


----------



## mirlacca

Mrs.K said:


> It's not only that they cannot be shown, they cannot be registered or listed, period. They are not accepted at all and as far as the Club is concerned, the white German Shepherd does not exist.
> Personally I do not know of any cases. It doesn't mean they are not out there but personally I have not ever met a breeder that had a case of a white shepherd being born out of his breeding. Long-Stock coat, yeah, even Long Coat but I have not seen a white Shepherd.


Yes, they CAN be registered. I owned a white GSD which was registered, as were both her parents. There are a lot of breeders out there who are producing (intentionally or otherwise!) white GSDs, and there is no problem about registering them as GSDs.

No, you can't show them in conformation classes, because the white color is an automatic DQ, just as any other conformation fault is. But that doesn't mean they're not GSDs. And you can show them--AS GSDs--in obedience, herding, flyball, agility, or anything else.


----------



## Discoetheque

mirlacca said:


> Yes, they CAN be registered. I owned a white GSD which was registered, as were both her parents. There are a lot of breeders out there who are producing (intentionally or otherwise!) white GSDs, and there is no problem about registering them as GSDs.
> 
> No, you can't show them in conformation classes, because the white color is an automatic DQ, just as any other conformation fault is. But that doesn't mean they're not GSDs. And you can show them--AS GSDs--in obedience, herding, flyball, agility, or anything else.


I think Mrs. K is referring to the SV in her post.


----------



## TAResley

It floors me to see how long this debate has gone back and forth. Geez. I guess everyone finished their wine I passed out a few months back. 

*Bottom line seems to be this for a few people:*

*View A:*
SV is right no matter what. White is not a "German Shepherd"! Yes, the color is IN there but it doesn't meet the SV standard! _SVSVSV!_ GENETICS DO NOT MATTER!! _SVVVV STANDARD!_

*View B:*
White is a color for a German Shepherd no matter what the SV says! My papers right here say "GERMAAN SHEPPHHERRD"! _Can't you read!?_
_PAPPERRRSS!_ GENETICS AND PAPERS!

*View C:*
I don't care about the SV or the Clubs. My dog _IS_ a White German Shepherd! _[email protected]#[email protected]#$%!!! GAH!_ GENETICSSS!

*View D:*
Dear *God*, where did the wine go?


I am at *View D*. No other view matters because it will just be argued into the ground with another view from the same people who literally wish to make your see their view as correct and final. 

Now, if you would like to share my "view" I have plenty of it to go around. 

_Wine anyone?_

* Cheers! *

(Now if you _really_ do want my real view you can scroll back a few months. No need to post it again. I don't like having pointless arguments that go so far down into the ground that I start to see China.)


----------



## selzer

I think the thread died a few months ago. Are we reviving it?


----------



## Mrs.K

Nope! It's like beating a dead horse because all is said.


----------



## Whiteshepherds

I'll take some of TAResley's wine.


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## shepherdmom

Did someone say wine? Count me in.


----------



## LifeofRiley

TAResley said:


> It floors me to see how long this debate has gone back and forth. Geez. I guess everyone finished their wine I passed out a few months back.
> 
> *Bottom line seems to be this for a few people:*
> 
> *View A:*
> SV is right no matter what. White is not a "German Shepherd"! Yes, the color is IN there but it doesn't meet the SV standard! _SVSVSV!_ GENETICS DO NOT MATTER!! _SVVVV STANDARD!_
> 
> *View B:*
> White is a color for a German Shepherd no matter what the SV says! My papers right here say "GERMAAN SHEPPHHERRD"! _Can't you read!?_
> _PAPPERRRSS!_ GENETICS AND PAPERS!
> 
> *View C:*
> I don't care about the SV or the Clubs. My dog _IS_ a White German Shepherd! _[email protected]#[email protected]#$%!!! GAH!_ GENETICSSS!
> 
> *View D:*
> Dear *God*, where did the wine go?
> 
> 
> I am at *View D*. No other view matters because it will just be argued into the ground with another view from the same people who literally wish to make your see their view as correct and final.
> 
> *Now, if you would like to share my "view" I have plenty of it to go around.
> 
> Wine anyone?*
> 
> * Cheers! *
> 
> (Now if you _really_ do want my real view you can scroll back a few months. No need to post it again. I don't like having pointless arguments that go so far down into the ground that I start to see China.)


I'll take a glass! Cheers! :toasting:

I will say that, from my perspective, I agree mostly with your argument to look at the genetic history of the breed - from that vantage point, it is ludicrous that an arbitrary decision, made on a faulty understanding of science - and in a disturbing cultural context - is still being upheld by the SV.

I should add that my dog is a rescue. I do not have any skin in the game here. I could really care less whether he was eligible to be registered as purebred GSD or not on any registry. My dog is a phenomenal dog for me and that is all that matters : )


----------



## TAResley

When I looked at the dates I think my eyes crossed! I thought it said last month and was thinking to myself... "Seriously!?" haha. 

*Hands out wine*


----------



## Mrs.K

Trust me when I say that, look what the SV has done to destroy the breed. Do you really want them to be in charge of them? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## gsdsar

Mrs.K said:


> Trust me when I say that, look what the SV has done to destroy the breed. Do you really want them to be in charge of them?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Gotta say. Really really surprised to hear this coming from you. Especially in this thread. 

I totally agree. But still. 

Be happy with your dog. No matter the color or the ability to register VTNE most important thing is the bond with your dog. Nothing else, nothing, matters above that. In regards to dogs. 

Do you love your dog? Are they what you wanted and hoped for? Woukd you give them up for a dog that WAS recognized by the SV? Then who the frak cares about anything else. It's all semantics anyways. And in the long run irrelevant. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Whiteshepherds

TAResley said:


> When I looked at the dates I think my eyes crossed! I thought it said last month and was thinking to myself... "Seriously!?" haha.
> *Hands out wine*


Enough wine for you.


----------



## Okin

I'm curious are there other breeds where one dog out of a litter of nine can be considered a separate breed from the rest of its litter mates?


----------



## selzer

Okin said:


> I'm curious are there other breeds where one dog out of a litter of nine can be considered a separate breed from the rest of its litter mates?


Maybe. 

I think cockers are shown as black, party-colored, and ASCOB -- Any Solid Color Other Than Black. 

I think that Belgium Sheepdogs have the same ancestry and maybe can be bred, and depending on their coats, are Tervs, Laekenois, Malinois, or Groenadles, though they may have stopped letting them interbreed now, I am not sure. 

My guess is that there are others too.


----------



## TAResley

Mrs.K said:


> Trust me when I say that, look what the SV has done to destroy the breed. Do you really want them to be in charge of them?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


This shocked me too!! Before you were defending the SV pretty hard. Change of mind or just misinterpretation of wording? Just curious. And to honestly answer this? The SV has me shaking my head back and forth all day long. For them to act like they have any control over the breed standard at this point is ridiculous. That would be a false sense of power, in my personal opinion. Look how many different kinds of GSDs there are and the flip flop they have done on the topic of "standard" in the past. If they were so keen on keeping the breed to their standard, they should remove the right for kennel clubs to use the name until they can get their stuff right and make up their mind on what they want in a GSD and HOLD to that standard by forcing the clubs to do that as well(Is there a way to do this? Anyway...). 

Clean lines clear confusion and, from what I've been reading on other threads, the SV standard has some serious interpretation issues/line blurring going on. However, that being said I am quite new to the scene so I can't say my view is correct or possible! That is just my _current_ view which is subject to change. But obviously If I weight my opinions *that* heavily on what the SV wanted I wouldn't have a white GSD. I'd have cared too much about the color of the dog and not the dog itself... and I love my Apollo to death.

On that note I will let Jennifer Connelly from the Labyrinth tell the SV how I feel. 









*@Selzer-*
I believe they allow them to interbreed still (in England anyway). We were going to get a Groenendael before we got our GSD, Apollo. I like how they are all  considered Belgium shepherds! I wonder why the kennel clubs and the SV can't do something like this for the German Shepherd breed. Hmm... Do you think this could help fix the problem or make it worse?

*P.S.*-Ahh! I want to point out I am not instigating debate!!! I just really wanted to ask questions and comment! <3


----------



## Whiteshepherds

TAResley said:


> That is just my _current_ view which is subject to change. But obviously If I weight my opinions *that* heavily on what the SV wanted I wouldn't have a white GSD. I'd have cared too much about the color of the dog and not the dog itself... and I love my Apollo to death.


Interesting how you worded that. :smirk: 

I love my dogs too, but I don't love all white GSD's. I am fascinated by their story and the people and clubs who support them. 
I don't pay much attention to the SV as a club but I like the breed survey, at least it's original intent.


----------



## TAResley

Whiteshepherds said:


> Interesting how you worded that. :smirk:
> 
> I love my dogs too, but I don't love all white GSD's. I am fascinated by their story and the people and clubs who support them.
> I don't pay much attention to the SV as a club but I like the breed survey, at least it's original intent.


Haha._ Exactly! _

You are so right. Not _all_ WGSDs are something I adore. That's for sure. Care and effort to keep their health is very important to me. I too share the same love for their story and the people, though. I get warm and fuzzies from seeing so much WGSD love! <3 Glad to see people like yourself who share that passion!


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## Whiteshepherds

I thought this would be a good thread to post this video to. These dogs are from the White Swiss Shepherd Dog Club of Australia. People so often talk about bad breeders producing whites and all the problems that come from byb's specifically issues with nerves. Here's a look at some dogs who may not have the proper GSD temperaments, (we'd have to see them in person to really understand their temperaments) but obviously, they don't suffer from dog aggression.  Anyway, for people who like whites and enjoy seeing them in large groups...here you go.


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## shepherdmom

Whiteshepherds said:


> I thought this would be a good thread to post this video to. These dogs are from the White Swiss Shepherd Dog Club of Australia. People so often talk about bad breeders producing whites and all the problems that come from byb's specifically issues with nerves. Here's a look at some dogs who may not have the proper GSD temperaments, (we'd have to see them in person to really understand their temperaments) but obviously, they don't suffer from dog aggression.  Anyway, for people who like whites and enjoy seeing them in large groups...here you go.
> 
> WSSDCA United Funday 2013 - Western Australia - YouTube


OMG so cute!!! :wub:


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## Debbieg

Great video!


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## arycrest

Love the video :wub: ... Thanks for sharing it!!!


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## pikiviki

Mrs.K said:


> No they are not GSD's. No matter what you say, the SV will NOT and NEVER recognize the white coat. That is why they are Berger Blanc Suisse, the White Swiss Shepherd Dog! In order for them to be accepted, they must be the Swiss Shepherd. It's better that way. So to me, there is no such thing as the White German Shepherd. There is a white Shepherd, a White Swiss Shepherd and the Berger Blanc Suisse but there is NEVER a white German Shepherd!
> 
> The AKC is the only registry accepted by the FCI, so it's time that the AKC should actually recognize the Berger Blanc Suisse, like the rest of the world.
> 
> People should get a grip and finally come to terms with that!


Actually, you should be the one who "gets a grip" because you're totally WRONG. German Shepherd Dogs and White Swiss GSDs are genetically the same with the exception of the white coat variant. One coat color does not "disqualify" a dog from being who they are. Just because most people are brunettes doesn't mean that blondes aren't really people, they're something else. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but as a Scientist I can tell you that you're wrong, wrong, wrong, and that German Shepherd Dogs are German Shepherd Dogs regardless of their coat gene!


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## selzer

pikiviki said:


> Actually, you should be the one who "gets a grip" because you're totally WRONG. German Shepherd Dogs and White Swiss GSDs are genetically the same with the exception of the white coat variant. One coat color does not "disqualify" a dog from being who they are. Just because most people are brunettes doesn't mean that blondes aren't really people, they're something else. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but as a Scientist I can tell you that you're wrong, wrong, wrong, and that German Shepherd Dogs are German Shepherd Dogs regardless of their coat gene!


I think if you look under Mrs. K's avatar, I think it says she is banned, so I don't think she will read or respond to your post. Because of the tighter controls in Germany, where Mrs. K is from, it is impossible to register a white GSD with papers that will allow for breeding. So, I think, for the most part, white is pretty much wiped out there. 

In years past, white ones were culled, meaning killed as puppies. Two things this did, it kept it from everyone that you produced a white GSD in your lines, and it kept that dog from reproducing itself. Today, we think that is pretty much barbaric. 

The AKC will not create any more breeds or variations separated by only color. So, they will not recognise the new name for the white dogs. I agree with them. I think it limits their gene pool too dramatically, and doesn't make sense. The dogs are the same breed. Personally, I think that if the nose is black and the those parts that are supposed to be black, I wish the white color was not a disqualifying fault, or a fault at all. If they have debunked the idea that white is linked to deafness, or that white dogs are severe handicap to working, I think they should remove the color disqualification. I am not a fan of solid colored GSDs of any color, but color is much less important than every other aspect of dog ownership, that is just doesn't make sense to me to disqualify due to color alone.


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## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> I think if you look under Mrs. K's avatar, I think it says she is banned, so I don't think she will read or respond to your post.
> The AKC will not create any more breeds or variations separated by only color. So, they will not recognise the new name for the white dogs.


The AKC is not opposed to the establishment of a new breed with white GSD's, (or FCI BBS) being used as the foundation stock, they never have been. They have continually said that the decision is up to the GSDCA. 

Sure wish Mrs. K was still around.


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> In years past, white ones were culled, meaning killed as puppies. Two things this did, it kept it from everyone that you produced a white GSD in your lines, and it kept that dog from reproducing itself. Today, we think that is pretty much barbaric.
> 
> The AKC will not create any more breeds or variations separated by only color. So, they will not recognise the new name for the white dogs. I agree with them. I think it limits their gene pool too dramatically, and doesn't make sense. The dogs are the same breed. Personally, I think that if the nose is black and the those parts that are supposed to be black, I wish the white color was not a disqualifying fault, or a fault at all. If they have debunked the idea that white is linked to deafness, or that white dogs are severe handicap to working, I think they should remove the color disqualification. I am not a fan of solid colored GSDs of any color, but color is much less important than every other aspect of dog ownership, that is just doesn't make sense to me to disqualify due to color alone.










We couldn't agree more!


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## Xeph

White boxers are DQ because their white *is* linked to health issues


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> In years past, white ones were culled, meaning killed as puppies. Two things this did, it kept it from everyone that you produced a white GSD in your lines, and it kept that dog from reproducing itself. Today, we think that is pretty much barbaric.



How many whites have you had in your litters? How many show up in non-white breeders litters? Just curious. Is it a common occurrence?


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## Chip18

Xeph said:


> White boxers are DQ because their white *is* linked to health issues


....


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## Xeph

What's the eye roll for? It's proven to be linked to deafness in that breed. White is not a masking gene in Boxers


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## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> How many whites have you had in your litters? How many show up in non-white breeders litters? Just curious. Is it a common occurrence?


 I haven't had any whites. I have read books where you see a litter with a white one in it -- usually these would be American Showline dogs (the books I have were written by ASL breeders). Mine are typically German Showlines, and the whites are probably a lot less common in those lines.


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> I haven't had any whites. I have read books where you see a litter with a white one in it -- usually these would be American Showline dogs (the books I have were written by ASL breeders). Mine are typically German Showlines, and the whites are probably a lot less common in those lines.



Oh yes heard white gene was wiped out of German lines. Didn't realize you had WGSL dogs. For some reason I thought you had working lines.


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## selzer

shepherdmom said:


> Oh yes heard white gene was wiped out of German lines. Didn't realize you had WGSL dogs. For some reason I thought you had working lines.


Not sure where you got that idea. I prefer the WGSL dogs. I like the American dogs too. The working line dogs just don't give me that warm fuzzy feeling, the stop-the-car-now-I-need-to-go-see-that-dog-and-talk-to-its-owner feeling.


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## Chip18

Xeph said:


> What's the eye roll for? It's proven to be linked to deafness in that breed. White is not a masking gene in Boxers


Oh now she's deaf to?? 

25% of all Boxers are born White and 18% of the Whites are born deaf! And they to were being "culled." They also are not allowed in the "conformation ring." Anything beyond that is uh...crap!

I mentioned them because, well I'm a Boxer guy and because they to are "discriminated" against because of the color of there fur!


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## Whiteshepherds

Chip18 said:


> Oh now she's deaf to??
> 
> 25% of all Boxers are born White and 18% of the Whites are born deaf! And they to were being "culled." They also are not allowed in the "conformation ring." Anything beyond that is uh...crap!
> 
> I mentioned them because, well I'm a Boxer guy and because they to are "discriminated" against because of the color of there fur!



So on average, for every 250 boxers born, 63 are white and 11 of those 63 are most likely deaf. (I think I did that right) Those aren't the greatest odds. 
How about other colored boxers, are there statistics showing how many of them are deaf or does it only show up in the white boxers?

In the White Swiss Shepherd breed the GWS (Switzerland) started requiring a hearing test in 2005 before the dogs were given clearance to breed (one of several requirements they must pass) after a breeder in Austria produced deaf dogs. It's genetic although not linked to the recessive gene for white.


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## Chip18

Whiteshepherds said:


> So on average, for every 250 boxers born, 63 are white and 11 of those 63 are most likely deaf. (I think I did that right) Those aren't the greatest odds.
> How about other colored boxers, are there statistics showing how many of them are deaf or does it only show up in the white boxers?


 Those numbers sound about right. I do know of board members that have deaf white boxers and I have seen a few White Boxers in rescue and they were white. I have seen one flashy that was deaf, struck me as very unusual but it happens. It does happen in the dogs of color but it does seem to be rare. But in Boxers the judges like the fashy dogs and you need the whites to get the flashy so I guess you need the white gene. So the white dogs aren't going anywhere!


On the other hand on Boxerforum we still get dogs that just drop over from Boxer cardiomyopathy. Six months to 3 years they can just keel over dead! Some are BYB dogs some are not. And by and large it seems to be often dogs of color?? And they can all be plagued by DM. I know of only one breeder that has DM clear breeding pairs.

Struddell was stuck down with DM at 8 years and we carried her for two years with 24/7 care, till she said it was over! Boxer ownership is very often a short painful ride on the pain train!




Whiteshepherds said:


> In the White Swiss Shepherd breed the GWS (Switzerland) started requiring a hearing test in 2005 before the dogs were given clearance to breed (one of several requirements they must pass) after a breeder in Austria produced deaf dogs. It's genetic although not linked to the recessive gene for white.


That is interesting? In Boxers Flashy and Flashy give you a "legitimate" White Boxer. You can't breed to a White female and the only deaf non white dog was a Flashy??

So deaf White Shepherds are fairly rare??


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## Xeph

Chip18 said:


> Oh now she's deaf to??


That's not what I said, and you know it.


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## Chip18

Xeph said:


> That's not what I said, and you know it.


 I stand corrected! :blush:


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## Jessiewessie99

This thread has been very educational. I met a few Berger Blanc Suisse at the Pet Expo in Orange County a couple years ago. I think I have the business card of the breeder. I wanna say it was 'Dances with Wolves Ranch' one. Very beautiful dogs. I would not hesitate to own one in the future.

As for white boxers, the rescue I volunteer for had a white boxer mix and he was deaf. Very sweet dog too.


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## Whiteshepherds

Chip18 said:


> So deaf White Shepherds are fairly rare??


To the best of my knowledge yes, it's rare. It would be no more common in whites than in any other color GSD because the recessive gene carried by the white GSD/WS (and some colored GSD's) isn't the same one that produces deafness in white boxers and other breeds. 

It's probably been mentioned before but for those who don't know, GSD's can carry a recessive masking gene best explained by saying it's like throwing a white sheet over a black and tan couch. The gene "masks" the true color of the dog. Both the sire and dam must carry that recessive gene to produce whites. 

Jessica- I agree, DWW dogs are beautiful. 

Barb


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## shepherdmom

selzer said:


> Not sure where you got that idea. I prefer the WGSL dogs. I like the American dogs too. The working line dogs just don't give me that warm fuzzy feeling, the stop-the-car-now-I-need-to-go-see-that-dog-and-talk-to-its-owner feeling.



Lol. I've had both working and show but only the whites do that "ooh must go talk to owner" to me.


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## mirlacca

So the offspring of two registered GSDs is not a GSD?

It's not a matter of "not recognizing" the white coat; it's a matter of disqualifying dogs from the show ring. They're still GSDs. They're disqualified from AKC conformation shows. That's all. They can and do still compete in agility, flyball, tracking, herding, and every other kind of competition. The white coat occurs when a dog has two copies of a masking gene that covers up the underlying coat color.


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