# convicted, community service at animal shelter



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Thoughts on the 'sentencing' guidelines in this case(or other cases w/ animal abusers) 
WWMT Newschannel 3 :: News - Top Stories - Man sentenced for involvement in dog fighting ring
The other person convicted has to do jail time and community service as well, but not specified where.
Michigan man sentenced on dog-fighting charges - National Dogs | Examiner.com
These two were breeding/training dogs for fighting.

Should people convicted of animal cruelty or dog fighting, whatever be anywhere near a shelter/rescue as community service? 
I personally don't think so, that is almost comparing letting a pedophile or child abuser do 'community service' at a daycare.

Hopefully they aren't allowed near any animals or the food/water sources that the animals are ingesting.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I'm assuming you're asking about this case only,but I don't think convicted of animal abuse should be allowed to do any work with animals. If they were convicted of other charges such as drugs,etc I could see it differently. After all not everyone who has gone to jail is an awful person and some of really do love animals. In this case though I don't think it's a good idea.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

No not this case only, I see it happening often, someone abuses animals and is made to work at a shelter for their penance. Makes no sense, what are the judges thinking?!
I agree, if the crimes don't involve animals, no biggie having community service w/ shelter or rescue, whatever and I'm a proponent of the prison animal rehab programs. They are a great way to help both the dogs and inmates.


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## KayleeGSD (Oct 2, 2012)

I think it is a very bad idea to have an animal abuser made to do community service at an animal shelter... That does not make any sense to me. I can see people with minor offenses that have nothing to do with animal abuse being placed in a shelter to do community service. People who abuse animals should be made to other things like road clean up etc.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I guess it depends on how you look at it. 

MAYBE the judge was hoping to de-objectify (is that even a word?) the dogs in the minds of the convicted. See them as animals, with personalities, etc. and not just a "fighting machine". 

It might work if the person had a conscience (no psychopathy checklist done, so hard to tell!)

Also, they are supervised (hopefully) by staff so the staff member would be able to report their findings (person didn't care, didn't clean properly, etc. etc. or the exact opposite).

When I was a parole officer, I had a number of parolees who wanted to work with the Humane Society and the HS wouldn't let them because they had a criminal record. 

I worked with a rescue group and they were THRILLED that a bunch of people would help walk dogs, etc. I was totally up front with them about the "clientele" that would be volunteering their time. 

It worked out really well. There were a couple of incidents ... mainly lack of education of the parolees's part ... nothing major and everyone learned and moved forward. 

There was ONE parolee who admitted that he had killed his dog. The other parolees were STUNNED .. a) that he did it and b) that he admitted to it. THEY watched him like a hawk ... and he knew they were watching him. 

A year later he finished parole and continued working with the rescue. 

I'm not saying it's ALWAYS the best answer, but sometimes working with animals - that are non-judgemental - can really be the key to helping someone turn around.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The guys in the case above has been involved with dog fighting/breeding forever....it wasn't a spur of the moment thing, but a big deal. They had pedigrees/paperwork for all and charged big bucks because fighters wanted the bloodlines. It wasn't a small time operation. I really don't understand how these two got off so easily. BUT our governor just signed a bill that will have anyone convicted of dog fighting to have all assets confiscated as they do in money laundering or racketeering crimes.


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## Yoschi's_Pet_Human (Nov 13, 2012)

my brother had to do community service for a DUI plea bargain.. he chose the shelter,, they didn't allow any community service folks near animals,, he cleaned empty kennels and crates,, nothing more


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## TommyB681 (Oct 19, 2012)

IMO no I wouldnt want them working with animals but at the same time at least the will be doing some good in the world considering 99% wont be doing much else


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

It's a stupid idea. There is _tons _of empirical data showing animal abuse is a strong predictor of future violence toward children or women. IMHO society would be better served by requiring aggressive professional psychological intervention _to save future lives of human beings. _Dumping those guys on the already overburdened staff at the animal shelter is a lost opportunity to do that. 

The shelter doesn't exist to rehabilitate those guys -- that's the criminal justice system's job. Dedicating staff or a volunteer to watch one of those guys would be disruptive--and I don't know any shelters with extra workers to spare doing that. Volunteers might as well take a bunch of rambunctious shelter puppies and kittens to the courthouse and ask the courtstaff to babysit them 160 hours, since the judge feels like trading off work.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Activists enraged by Memphis Animal Shelter webcam image - Action News 5 - Memphis, Tennessee

Audit Ties Memphis Shelter Workers To Dog-Fighting Rings | Memphis Breaking News, Weather and Sports | WPTY-TV | ABC24, abc24.com

Isn't that bizarre? 

I would like to think that they could develop some empathy but the only way I would send them to a shelter is with staff from the prison going with them - and how do you know what their POV is on animal cruelty?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

WOW! It just never ends....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think it's a good idea, and not just because someone convicted of dog fighting or animal cruelty obviously already has a callous disregard for animals, but because having volunteered in a shelter I think if that is your only exposure to dogs it can further taint your view. I found volunteering at the shelter physically and emotionally exhausting and some days I went home wondering why I ever liked dogs in the first place. Some of them were just so insanely difficult to deal with, and I know it's not the dog's fault but it does wear on you over time, you'd have to be a drone to not ever be effected by it. Many shelters are inefficiently run and managed which just makes it more frustrating trying to get things done and do right by the dogs. If I wanted to truly rehabilitate someone who already had a very negative or apathetic view towards dogs I don't know that putting them in the shelter environment would really help give them a positive experience with dogs. I think the prison dog thing where the inmates get to work with a dog consistently one-on-one is better.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

I didn't see anywhere in those stories that actually proved his even fought dogs or abused them. Does anyone have a more detailed link? 

All I saw in that one is "evidence" of injured dogs, wtf is that? And 'dog fighting equipment' - which they don't even list. did YOU know? That things that can be considered fighting paraphernalia include:
Treadmills
Flirtpoles
Springpoles
Break sticks - Which EVERY bull-breed owner should have! I have some and no bullies!
Jenny Mills
Thick collars
Tethers and tethered dogs
OTHER ANIMALS - cats, chickens, dogs etc. - they'll call them bait even if they're happy and healthy.
Medical equipment - antibiotics, needles, routine and rabies shots, etc. etc. 

Not saying he wasn't a dog fighter, but it's a **** near witch hunt nowadays. 
Edit* Okay, I see he was involved in dog fighting - I found a better coverage of the story where he says he allowed fights on his property. But that doesn't change what I've said in a general sense of these cases. I'd still like to see pictures of all of the animals. 


I think it's a great idea if the shelter is totally on board and understanding and absolutely will be on top of the person - what better punishment than having to give back to the animals? I'm sure he's not left alone with them. And who knows, maybe seeing a horrifically abused animal come in that still trusts the person will change something in him.

And it is NOT anything like a **cking PEDOPHILE working with kids! Someone who rapes and gets sexual arousal from little kids being ordered to go work with kids where he's going to get off, and someone who treats their dog bad or is accused of doing so, then being made to care for animals under supervision?? WTH
I'm sorry if I went overboard there, but I'm going to guess you haven't been around damaged people or been abused yourself as a child by a sexual predator?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I'm not going to quote all of your post,APBTLOVE because I don't want to waste the space.
This isn't about the breed but about what people do to exploit the breed....so you don't have to defend the PB's!!!!

These were dog breeders who trains dogs to fight. They do that by using bait dogs! They sold their dogs exclusively to fighting rings. One of them had previous run ins with the law.
All you have to do is google their names and I'm sure other links will pop up.
And yes, anyone that abuses a child or animal should not be around children or animals as a part of their sentence. I doubt one judge in the nation would allow someone that hurts kids to be around them. That was the point I was making... Why should it be different for animals? 

Sorry if I hit a sensitive spot, but reality is what it is. You didn't need to go off on that tangent, it was merely a comparison/obviously a bad one on my part.
You obviously are ok with dog fighting? Why would you want to see pics of injured or maimed dogs?


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I'm not going to quote all of your post,APBTLOVE because I don't want to waste the space.
> This isn't about the breed but about what people do to exploit the breed....so you don't have to defend the PB's!!!!
> 
> *I'm not exactly defending Pit Bulls but the owners and breed fanciers, but you would be shocked at how many innocent GOOD owners are harassed and wrongly accused of dog fighting for owning items that dog fighters (and MANY other people) use. So I take it a with a huge grain of salt when I see vague articles like the first one. However, I see he WAS involved with dog fighting. *
> ...


That's a serious and awful thing to say. I adore APBTs so I educated myself as much as possible about the breed, and their history is fighting. I cannot say I wish they never did it, because I wouldn't have the dogs I love so much. I could argue on both sides of the dog fighting debates. 

Because they said there were injured animals, or "evidence" - I want to know what EVIDENCE of an injured animal is - either the animal is injured or not, it confused me, and they posted no pictures - they tend to exaggerate terribly when it comes to these things. Again, you'd be surprised. I bet if most of us shaved our GSDs you'd find scars and nicks all over them from life in general. I was told by an ACO that my foster dog was a fighting dog, of that he was certain. That dog lived with a family and lived as a pet her whole life - she had scars from a car accident and surgery and wore a Stillwater collar, and apparently that was enough to definitively say she was a seasoned fighting dog. 

And yes, every story like this affects the breed badly. I would rather they be 100% factual. So in a way, I am defending the Pit Bull breed a whole, any misinformation about dog fighting, the breed, anything can and does hurt them.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

As for the original topic.
And I'm not just saying this for people accused of dog fighting.
There is a difference between someone who actually gains pleasure and gratification from hurting a child - and there are those who get the same from hurting animals. Have you ever seen the 'crush' videos? Where they slowly, agonizingly crush small animals, puppies, kittens, rabbits etc. to death? Usually wearing severe high-heels - I got to see a Pit puppy have his little eyes gouged out with a heel for someone to get off sexually. The people who watch and get off to that - HECK no would I have them working with animals!! They belong in jail or a psych ward. 

But someone who has hurt animals for whatever reason and not because they enjoyed it particularly - half of the little punks around the neighborhood don't seem to think dogs can even feel. Of course they don't care if their dog gets hurt, or about beating their dog for chewing a shoe. I think having them work with and learn about animals under supervision could help. 
Or someone who neglects animals - puts a dog out back and forgets the small collar on her neck and tosses food out not paying attention. They just don't care - they don't care for their dog like they would a person because they don't see it as a thinking, feeling thing. And maybe having to see what thinking, feeling humans do to dogs and having to help these creatures would change someone's heart. 

My granddad shot squirrels from his window because they made him mad by eating his pecans. Pointless, because there were enough pecans in that tree to feed a small country.

My own mom, raised by him, cooked crabs alive - it's how just about everyone does it. No remorse, no feelings for that little living thing. Just cover the pot and hear them scratch for a minute or so and then they're just dinner. She has done this all her life - I showed her how much compassion 
*I* had, and told her numerous times they DO feel it, and it hit home. She does not cook them like that anymore.

Or how about the slaughterhouse workers? Do you think they could never regret what they've done? 

I put so much time, love, and care (and cash too) into an old Pit Bull who was neglected by his owners while he was still under their care, THEY started to care for him more because they saw how much he meant to someone, and that he was actually worth something more than money. He was worth love and care - sure, not the average outcome, but it happens.

OR animal hoarders, who have dead and dying animals all over because it got out of hand, but they love them to death. Still technically abuse and neglect. They need help, not punishment. 

Nothing angers me more, I've gone to extremes to save animals, namely dogs, from bad situations. One of the only times I have and will become violent is if you hurt an animal in front of me - I've marched my 5'2 self into a group of men (for lack of a better word) and taken a puppy from their hands while daring them to stop me because they were hanging him by a choke chain and taking turns hitting and kicking him 'to make him tough'.



And while I'd just as soon do the same to them, if they showed remorse and I could have made them understand how wrong they were, maybe even turned them around, I would rather do that. There is no better punishment that understanding and remorse.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

As for the original topic.
And I'm not just saying this for people accused of dog fighting.
There is a difference between someone who actually gains pleasure and gratification from hurting a child - and there are those who get the same from hurting animals. Have you ever seen the 'crush' videos? Where they slowly, agonizingly crush small animals, puppies, kittens, rabbits etc. to death? Usually wearing severe high-heels - I got to see a Pit puppy have his little eyes gouged out with a heel for someone to get off sexually. The people who watch and get off to that - HECK no would I have them working with animals!! They belong in jail or a psych ward. 

But someone who has hurt animals for whatever reason and not because they enjoyed it particularly - half of the little punks around the neighborhood don't seem to think dogs can even feel. Of course they don't care if their dog gets hurt, or about beating their dog for chewing a shoe. I think having them work with and learn about animals under supervision could help. 
Or someone who neglects animals - puts a dog out back and forgets the small collar on her neck and tosses food out not paying attention. They just don't care - they don't care for their dog like they would a person because they don't see it as a thinking, feeling thing. And maybe having to see what thinking, feeling humans do to dogs and having to help these creatures would change someone's heart. 

My granddad shot squirrels from his window because they made him mad by eating his pecans. Pointless, because there were enough pecans in that tree to feed a small country.

My own mom, raised by him, cooked crabs alive - it's how just about everyone does it. No remorse, no feelings for that little living thing. Just cover the pot and hear them scratch for a minute or so and then they're just dinner. She has done this all her life - I showed her how much compassion 
*I* had, and told her numerous times they DO feel it, and it hit home. She does not cook them like that anymore.

Or how about the slaughterhouse workers? Do you think they could never regret what they've done? 

Nothing angers me more, I've gone to extremes to save animals, namely dogs, from bad situations. One of the only times I have and will become violent is if you hurt an animal in front of me - I've marched my 5'2 self into a group of men (for lack of a better word) and taken a puppy from their hands while daring them to stop me because they were hanging him by a choke chain and taking turns hitting and kicking him 'to make him tough'.

And while I'd just as soon do the same to them, if they showed remorse and I could have made them understand how wrong they were, maybe even turned them around, I would rather do that. There is no better punishment that understanding and remorse.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I've never seen the crush video's nor would I waste my time to search out watching any animal or person be abused. That is sick and disturbing that people would seek out to view such crap. 

Comparing someone who intentionally abuses animals to a slaughter house worker is nonsense. Killing for a meal is much different than killing just to kill. I'm not going to get into the debate about the justification of eating animals. 

This thread is about a person who intentionally harms animals, convicted, then doing time in a shelter or rescue as their penance. 

Both of the cases above were just a slap on the hands~definitely didn't fit the crime, and they didn't even have to pay restitution to the confiscated dogs vetting, housing or rehab. 
The whole thing about these cases that I found odd was the HSUS stepped in before they were arrested to secure kenneling, vetting and supposed rehab and adoption for whatever dogs could be rehomed. That was the first time I've read or heard of them actually helping, and I am curious to see how many dogs were adopted out. In MI it is against the law to rehome any confiscated animal that has been 'used for fighting' so they all were dispersed to rescue in other states... thus making it hard to track the whereabouts.
As far as this story being bad for the breed, well, the breeders of these dogs are the ones to be blamed, not the public or anyone who reports on it.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Don't know about HSUS, but I'm told that ASPCA has specially trained DART teams that they'll send in to help with seized animals in dog-fighting cases. Public agencies just have to call and ask.

Part of what's going on with the animal rescue operations is what was learned from the Vick case. It was the first major case where they professionally eval'd every single dog _as an individual_ before making any decisions about its fate -- and they were surprised to find a number that were pretty docile and wanted nothing to do with fighting. At least one of them is now a therapy dog in California. I think that high-profile experience created more room for groups like ASPCA and HSUS to offer to try to help the dogs, who are the victims of these jerks.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

HSUS isn't usually a great advocate of helping...they are more about regulating and limiting rights. ASPCA is more regional in how active they are as far as helping. We have a local SPCA rescue that isn't affiliated with the ASPCA but because of the name, people think they are one in the same. The local one is a rescue, not an animal law enforcement agency.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Dog deaths lawsuit settled | Home | The Advocate — Baton Rouge, LA

The ASPCA and it's dog fighting team are BS. 

I'd agree with you Jane about the slaughterhouse workers if they killed humanely. Unfortunately I've seen how they kill the animals and it is rarely mercifully or humanely unless it is small scale. And to make yourself a part of that is no different than beating your dog for no reason. 

And yes about the crush videos, people pay pretty good to watch them die like that - same as pedophiles getting kiddie porn. It's horrific. 
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6nxg7mYLa1qk72fpo1_500.jpg



> As far as this story being bad for the breed, well, the breeders of these dogs are the ones to be blamed, not the public or anyone who reports on it.


No, because the breeders aren't the ones pumping out misinformation, it's the media.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Those breeders were breeding the dogs to fight...plain and simple. Why should the medie be blamed for that? There are so many pb's on CL, they are overbred. 
If the breeders would take more responsibility in their breeding practices and placement I don't think the breed would have such a reputation. 
This thread isn't about THE breed! It's about the sentencing guidelines that are handed out and why judges would burden the shelter/rescues that are already trying to keep their sanity.


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## APBTLove (Feb 23, 2009)

Oh I know, but if we can have a slightly veering topic discussion that pertains to the breed involved and stay civil, I didn't think it would hurt. 

Real American Pit Bull Terrier breeders are not common. Nor are they lax about who their dogs go to. It isn't their dogs you see on craigslist - though believe me I know more than most about the overpopulation of 'Pit Bull' type dogs. I'm worrying now over two that I personally know who are going to need homes before February. 

Whether a breeder is breeding dogs based on their original purpose, or for conformation and temperament and health - which is where Amstaffs came from - it isn't their fault if the media makes random stuff up that makes a good owner look bad. When they media lists off tools and toys responsible and good owners use - or that if a Pit Bull has scars and tell Joe Public to keep an eye out for these things as they indicate a dog fighter, it hurts the good owners. I don't even own a Pit Bull right now, and I have a springpole, breaksticks, flirtpole and thick collars. I also have extensive knowledge on APBT history - enough to make you (Jane) think I like fighting dogs apparently. So how do you think the average person who hears this crap from the media would view an owner walking a Pit Bull on a thick collar while carrying a break stick? 90% of the time they assume "Dog fighter!" because of the media lying and making things up to sound like they know what they're saying. And if an ACO thinks you fight dogs, it's enough to take your dogs from you until you can prove otherwise. So YES, misinformation on dog fighting does hurt the good owners.


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