# Just got a new sheprador (shep and lab mix)



## Mel-ponce (Nov 27, 2020)

*I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas if her ears will stand up right now they are kind of floppy they tend to stand up slightly when she is focused on something. She's already showing that she is VERY protective of us I think she imprinted on my 16 yr old son she loves him. She will become his emotional support dog for his anxiety and panic attacks.







*


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Pretty dog!I wouldn't count on the ears coming up.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Those ears don’t look like they are coming up.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

He will have floppy ears. Pretty dog. I always cringe at these fancy names for a mixed breed. But I do like that cross GSD X Labrador


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## Mel-ponce (Nov 27, 2020)

Yeah I don't think so either but thought I'd ask she looks like the GS is alot more prominent then the lab aside from her ears


wolfy dog said:


> He will have floppy ears. Pretty dog. I always cringe at these fancy names for a mixed breed. But I do like that cross GSD X Labrador


She's an AMAZING dog yeah that's just what she is since she is a cross breed that's the name of breed she is


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Mel-ponce said:


> She's an AMAZING dog yeah that's just what she is since she is a cross breed that's the name of breed she is


It tends to be a good cross, I don't see those ears coming up. And with all due respect she isn't a breed at all she's a cross or a mutt. I'm another that really dislikes those cutesy names.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

She is a cross, not a GSD or a Lab or a new breed. But she’s awfully cute and her ears look very happy just the way they are.


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## Mel-ponce (Nov 27, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> She is a cross, not a GSD or a Lab or a new breed. But she’s awfully cute and her ears look very happy just the way they are.


I never said she was a "new breed" I stated to the


Sabis mom said:


> It tends to be a good cross, I don't see those ears coming up. And with all due respect she isn't a breed at all she's a cross or a mutt. I'm another that really dislikes those cutesy names.


She is a cross as in when you take two different types of animals and cross them aka a cross breed. idk if you don’t like the name of her or not she is what she is and she’s mine i rescued her and she will forever be my baby girl and forever i will take care of her regardless of what you think


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Mel-ponce said:


> SHE IS A CROSS AS IN QHEN YOU TAKE TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF ANIMALS AND CROSS THEM AKA A CROSS BREED. IDK IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE NAME OF HER OR NOT SHE IS WHAT SHE IS AND SHE'S MINE I RESCUED HER AND SHE WILL FOREVER BE MY BABY GIRL AND FOREVER I WILL TAKE CARE OF HER REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK


There is no such thing as a Sheprador! That was our point. Of course she is yours and you should love her and take care of her.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

No need to shout or take offense, you're not off to a good start here. 
All they're saying is a cross between a lab and a German Shepherd is just that. There's no such thing as "that's the name of breed she is" since she's not a breed....Sheprador is just the latest marketing like Cockapoo or Labradoodle and some people think those are breeds as well. But it's marketing, not a breed, like "rare" Blue Shepherds.

Your dog is very cute though, have fun and train her well for your son.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Mel-ponce please calm down.It's agreed you have a very pretty and intelligent dog.Looking forward to updates as she grows.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Mel-ponce said:


> Really?????? Look it up boo why are you so salty about my post if you don't like it keep scrolling


I actually was being nice. GSD/Lab tends to be a nice cross.
Assigning cute names to crosses makes stupid people think they are getting something special and perpetuates the irresponsible breeding of dogs that will ultimately end up in shelters or worse. 
That's why we dog lovers here object to the name.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Because of the cute names "breeders" often ask cute amounts of dollars. Lab mixes go easily for $2000 here without any health or temperament guarantees. And often are spayed and neutered before 10 weeks to make sure no one takes their business.


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## Mel-ponce (Nov 27, 2020)

dogma13 said:


> Mel-ponce please calm down.It's agreed you have a very pretty and intelligent dog.Looking forward to updates as she grows.


I am very calm I don't understand why people have to be so ugly and say such ignorant things it doesn't make any sense. I will post pictures of her and thank you she is very beautiful and intelligent


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with a mix if that is what you want. But you are going to also get a mix of traits so much of what you read here about purebreds won’t apply to your dog.

When you are new to a message board, it is always a good idea to get to know people and the culture of the forum before getting offended. We aren’t here to argue, we are here to inform and share. You started this thread but a lot of people will read it and learn from it, so information should be correct. We aren’t going to sugar coat things to make someone feel better. Your dog is cute. If you are happy, that is all that matters. But you asked a question which I interpret to mean you want to know if your dog will look like a GSD and we said no and explained why.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Some posters tend to be abrubt when they respond.Makes it more difficult to feel welcomed or learn anything new.


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## happyblond (Sep 14, 2012)

Very pretty girl and she has ear floofs!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

dogma13 said:


> *Pretty dog!*I wouldn't count on the ears coming up.





Bearshandler said:


> Those ears don’t look like they are coming up.





wolfy dog said:


> He will have floppy ears. *Pretty dog.* I always cringe at these fancy names for a mixed breed. But I do like that cross GSD X Labrador





Sabis mom said:


> It tends to be* a good cross, *I don't see those ears coming up. And with all due respect she isn't a breed at all she's a cross or a mutt. I'm another that really dislikes those cutesy names.





LuvShepherds said:


> She is a cross, not a GSD or a Lab or a new breed. But *she’s awfully cute* and her ears look very happy just the way they are.


Not one single nasty response.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Mel-ponce said:


> Yeah I don't think so either but thought I'd ask she looks like the GS is alot more prominent then the lab aside from her ears
> 
> 
> She's an AMAZING dog yeah that's just what she is since she is a cross breed that's the name of breed she is


Actually, there is no "Sheprador" breed. The way a breed is developed is never by mixing one breed to another breed. That is simply a cross bred dog. The funky names like Yorki-poo and Puggle and Sheprador are an advertising ploy. To build a breed like the German Shepherd, some begin with regional dogs used for a purpose, like Sheep herding dogs in Germany. Then the founder of the breed begins to breed those dogs together exclusively and then carefully adding other breeds to gain certain traits, and to do this they have to have a lot of money and a lot of friends, a network of supporters to place the dogs that that they want to continue to breed back to etc. And they have to cull pups or young dogs that do not fit what they were trying to acheive. Then they will breed back to the dogs and stop adding anything new into the mix for many generations, until the breed can follow a standard. 

Outcrossing is when you breed a purebred dog, a GSD for instance to another GSD with nothing in common for at least 5 generations, hopefully more. Sometimes it is a breeding between different lines of the same breed, like working or show lines, or American bred dogs to German bred dogs or Australian bred dogs. And then the most promising pups are bred back into the breeder's line. This is done to improve a trait. But what happens, is that you get a litter that is not uniform at all. You get a litter that may have extremes on both sides and or anywhere in the middle. And you pick the pups with the trait you are looking for, that doesn't have anything terribly out there in other ways and breed it back into your lines, not hoping for anything showable, Maybe the next generation or the next, you will come up with the pup that you were desiring. 

When you mix two different breeds, that is what is going to happen -- a total outcross. The pups will be all over the spectrum of what one side or the other side in looks and temperament, etc. And their pups will also be kind of all over the place, they will begin to come more in line as you breed them back to a shepherd or a lab, or if you find a shepherd/lab cross to mix it with. But it would have to be bred true -- all shepherd/lab crosses for many generations before it would take on a style of its own that might be called by a breed-specific name. And unless you have about 30 people to take on this venture with you, willing to hold to a certain standard in breed practices, there is just no way it will make a good breed that will have any hope of having a strong standard of conformation and health and temperament. 

As a purebred group, we can take offense at people taking any old lab and any old shepherd putting them together, having 10-14 puppies and calling them shepradors, and charging 1500 to 2500 dollars for the dogs as something unique and special. We have absolutely no problem with anyone owning a shepherd/lab cross whether they rescued it or if they got it from someone who bred their pets, and sold them or gave them to people. Those puppies and their owners are welcome here as many of the same problems and joys will be shared. The dog is a dog like any of our dogs, needs training and nutrition and leadership and love, and deserves all of them. 

It can be a dry read, but if you get a hold of a copy of Max Von Stephanitz book, The German Shepherd in Word and Picture, you can read about how much time, energy, thought, knowledge and experience, went into the creation of the German Shepherd Breed. Max was the founder of the German Shepherd. He was a bit autocratic and held the entire breed under his thumb for a long time, but he was also very knowledgeable and really did a great job in all areas of creating/refining a breed.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

It's apparent that not everyone understands the difference between breed and cross-breed.
But it might be interesting for some to know that new breeds are recognized all the time and not universally.

For instance the Dogo Argentino, slightly smaller Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff) type, was first developed in the 1920's and not recognized by the AKC until .....2020

One day they just might recognize the Sheprador as a separate breed  ....but not yet


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Nice Sheprador.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Cute dog. Those ears will never stand. Glad you love her.

Now that I’ve answered the question...
To those of you that actually think a lab/GSD is a good (purposeful) mix, why? I truly can’t understand it. Those two breeds are polar opposites. One is super doofy, social, loves everyone and everything, bred to work with other dogs, and honestly, not the brightest tool in the shed in my experience. The other is naturally aloof, is supposed to have appropriate aggression, one person dogs, not usually dog social, often more serious, prone to real nerve issues.... why would you mix those things?

Looking at you @wolfy dog and @Sabis mom


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> Cute dog. Those ears will never stand. Glad you love her.
> 
> Now that I’ve answered the question...
> To those of you that actually think a lab/GSD is a good (purposeful) mix, why? I truly can’t understand it. Those two breeds are polar opposites. One is super doofy, social, loves everyone and everything, bred to work with other dogs, and honestly, not the brightest tool in the shed in my experience. The other is naturally aloof, is supposed to have appropriate aggression, one person dogs, not usually dog social, often more serious, prone to real nerve issues.... why would you mix those things?
> ...


I wouldn't mix them. Lol. But as crosses go the genetics seem to play well together. I have some doubts that the OPs dog is that cross, since in general they seem to resemble prick eared labs. There are crosses that do not mix well, but I've dealt with a solid number of GSD/Labs and they seem to do well.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> I wouldn't mix them. Lol. But as crosses go the genetics seem to play well together. I have some doubts that the OPs dog is that cross, since in general they seem to resemble prick eared labs. There are crosses that do not mix well, but I've dealt with a solid number of GSD/Labs and they seem to do well.


I actually haven’t come across any. Well, as far as I know. No one has introduced me to their sheprador, so I’m assuming I haven’t met one. It’s just on paper that it looks like the mix really shouldn’t mesh well.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Pytheis said:


> I actually haven’t come across any. Well, as far as I know. No one has introduced me to their sheprador, so I’m assuming I haven’t met one. It’s just on paper that it looks like the mix really shouldn’t mesh well.


The only people who generally call them Shepradors are folks who think they got something fancy or new. The designer dog set or people who just don't know and got snowed.
Look for the dogs that resemble barrel shaped black GSD's with tipped ears, lol. They are everywhere. You get the odd one with the saddleback color but usually black. 
All of you that get asked if your black dogs are lab crosses, that's why.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Pytheis said:


> Cute dog. Those ears will never stand. Glad you love her.
> 
> Now that I’ve answered the question...
> To those of you that actually think a lab/GSD is a good (purposeful) mix, why? I truly can’t understand it. Those two breeds are polar opposites. One is super doofy, social, loves everyone and everything, bred to work with other dogs, and honestly, not the brightest tool in the shed in my experience. The other is naturally aloof, is supposed to have appropriate aggression, one person dogs, not usually dog social, often more serious, prone to real nerve issues.... why would you mix those things?
> ...


They have to be one of the most common non-planned crosses. I have known 3 and all were great dogs. Maybe the right lab mellows out the GSD? Working labs are awesome in the field


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Pytheis said:


> I actually haven’t come across any. Well, as far as I know. No one has introduced me to their sheprador, so I’m assuming I haven’t met one. It’s just on paper that it looks like the mix really shouldn’t mesh well.


Some of them do really well and others don’t. Mine has bad hips, trains really easy and super easy dog to live with. I think the dogs mixed together would influence it quite a bit.

After maturity got weird fear issues. She was around younger kids and did amazing with them at under a year old. But now she’s spooky of strangers particularly kids although she still loves my cousin who was around her throughout maturity.

To me I think with her the conflict is lab friendliness vs. shepherd instinct. a lot of times when she sees new people her first instinct is oh new friend, but then about halfway over to them her brain switches gears and she registers it’s a stranger and she has a fear reaction. (Tail tucked, backs away barking.)

I don’t know if she’d be different if I’d spayed her before maturity which is common in a lot of dogs.

She does better with people after she’s been around them for awhile and some people she does great with after the first meeting. It can vary a bit by location and she’s better about it now than when the behavior first started but I’ve been working on it.

Her mother was a bit wary of strangers but didn’t seem fearful and her grandmother was very friendly. Both purebred GSDs. Both barked at first but the grandmother warmed up pretty quick to strangers. I think my GSD Shelby who doesn’t know what a stranger is would mix pretty well labs.

I wonder if OPs dog is actually just a lab/GSD mix though. Looks more like the golden/GSD mixes I’ve seen and several other different mixes over lab GSD. At the very least would be some sort of multi-gen mix. Mine is 50/50 and F1 dogs tend to be pretty consistent depending on the mix used.

I also just call my dog a mutt, not a designer cross. I have a pretty low view of designer mixes consider most of them are bybs/scammers. I do support the creation of new breeds though but slapping two dogs together and giving them a cute name so they sell is not that.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kazel said:


> I wonder if OPs dog is actually just a lab/GSD mix though. Looks more like the golden/GSD mixes I’ve seen and several other different mixes over lab GSD. At the very least would be some sort of multi-gen mix. Mine is 50/50 and F1 dogs tend to be pretty consistent depending on the mix used.


Thats exactly what I thought. Every one I've seen pretty much looks like yours.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I never had Shepadors in my classes but I did have and knew several Lab x GSD crosses and they were all nice active and trainable dogs. As long as they don't mix them with poodles I am ok with that. Just don't market them to make money with silly names.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

selzer said:


> Actually, there is no "Sheprador" breed. The way a breed is developed is never by mixing one breed to another breed. That is simply a cross bred dog......


How can you say a breed is never developed by mixing one breed with another when that's exactly how the GSD was developed? The first REGISTERED GSD (Horand) was a mutt. A mixed breed. A dog with parents of mixed and unknown ancestry, didn't meet the standard, passed along recessive genes for genetic diseases. The Sheprador of his time. 



selzer said:


> The funky names like Yorki-poo and Puggle and Sheprador are an advertising ploy.


The name someone calls their dogs isn't as important as the information they provide to the buyer. As long as breeders are being honest about the Sheprador (not registered, mixed breed etc.) I really don't see what all the fuss is about. 

The name Sheprador is simply that...a name used to identify a shepherd/lab mix. Over the years it's become very common. The OP made it very clear she is aware that her dog is a mixed breed. She wasn't conned by some unscrupulous breeder in fact, the dog was a rescue. 

The Sheprador doesn't produce consistent or predictable genetic traits from one breeder to the next and hasn't earned the right to be considered a pure breed or to be recognized by a legitimate registry, but people need to stop acting like it's some kind of mortal sin to call a lab/shepherd mix by a "breed" name. The GSD was named long before it bred true to type and long before different mixes of breed stopped being introduced. How can anyone be sure men weren't sitting in German pubs back in the day complaining about that guy Max who had the nerve to call his mutts a "breed" name??


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

wolfy dog said:


> As long as they don't mix them with poodles I am ok with that.


Just curious...how come no Poodles? Piper took 3 different classes (starting from puppy class) with a Golden Doodle. It was a really smart dog. Is it a temperament issue? Health? Again, just curious.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Need to add I'm not advocating for people to breed mutts, just curious about the Poodle thing.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, have you seen the parents of your dog? Rescues often guess the breeds of mixes, based on looks. If you haven't seen the parents she could be any mix. Not necessarily a mix of two purebreds but a mix of mixes aka the all-time good American mutt. I wonder where she got these ear fluffs from.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

selzer said:


> Actually, there is no "Sheprador" breed. The way a breed is developed is never by mixing one breed to another breed. That is simply a cross bred dog. The funky names like Yorki-poo and Puggle and Sheprador are an advertising ploy. To build a breed like the German Shepherd, some begin with regional dogs used for a purpose, like Sheep herding dogs in Germany. Then the founder of the breed begins to breed those dogs together exclusively and then carefully adding other breeds to gain certain traits, and to do this they have to have a lot of money and a lot of friends, a network of supporters to place the dogs that that they want to continue to breed back to etc. And they have to cull pups or young dogs that do not fit what they were trying to acheive. Then they will breed back to the dogs and stop adding anything new into the mix for many generations, until the breed can follow a standard.
> 
> Outcrossing is when you breed a purebred dog, a GSD for instance to another GSD with nothing in common for at least 5 generations, hopefully more. Sometimes it is a breeding between different lines of the same breed, like working or show lines, or American bred dogs to German bred dogs or Australian bred dogs. And then the most promising pups are bred back into the breeder's line. This is done to improve a trait. But what happens, is that you get a litter that is not uniform at all. You get a litter that may have extremes on both sides and or anywhere in the middle. And you pick the pups with the trait you are looking for, that doesn't have anything terribly out there in other ways and breed it back into your lines, not hoping for anything showable, Maybe the next generation or the next, you will come up with the pup that you were desiring.
> 
> ...


Don’t forget the meticulous stud book records. You can look at the breeds people tried to make from German shepherds like Shiloh and king shepherds to see how difficult it is.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Need to add I'm not advocating for people to breed mutts, just curious about the Poodle thing.


Most I met were pushy and overly hyper. Most had owners who were not experienced in either breed and bought them for a lot of money based on looks or for supposedly being non-allergenic.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Just curious...how come no Poodles? Piper took 3 different classes (starting from puppy class) with a Golden Doodle. It was a really smart dog. Is it a temperament issue? Health? Again, just curious.


I went to breed specific rescue when the Doodle thing took off. Seriously. They just kept coming in. Oodles and oodles of Doodles! Wretched coats, horrid temperaments and so sick of the hypoallergenic thing! Lol. Love poodles, no need to mix them with anything.


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## chuckd (Jul 16, 2019)

I have a neighbor who owns a gsd-labX. Really sweet dog. All black- looks pure gsd except for the slightly "blunted" muzzle. You'd think he was an undersized male. Seems like he's got a good temperament, non-reactive. Friendly but not over-the-top. Owner says that he can easily run a marathon (owner is a runner), rarely barks, has zero suspicion and hates the water.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Whiteshepherds said:


> How can you say a breed is never developed by mixing one breed with another when that's exactly how the GSD was developed? The first REGISTERED GSD (Horand) was a mutt. A mixed breed. A dog with parents of mixed and unknown ancestry, didn't meet the standard, passed along recessive genes for genetic diseases. The Sheprador of his time.


Actually, he was nothing of the kind. He was the best specimen Max could find of the region's sheep herding dogs, and he began the stud book with him. Many dog breeds were began when local fanciers of dogs common to an area get together to preserve or improve the dogs. Horand was not a mix of two purebred dogs of different breeds -- that is a cross breed. Horand was a dog that shepherds through human generations had bred for their ability to move and guard sheep. They had characteristics that would be needed to work in that climate, and to do the job. They were bred for function, and Max got several of them and started breeding them together, and then added in carefully other breeds that he thought would improve them. It took time to finally stop any more breeding in of other breeds. The GSDs are a German dog refined into a breed by careful and knowledgeable management. 

Maybe your animosity for this stems for his rejection of white dogs, though he originally used them. I don't know but if you read his book you can't help but give the man his due. He created/refined the breed into a dog that was probably a lot better than it currently is, and what it currently is is one of the most popular, most utilitarian, most biddible, most loveable and beautiful of dogs. 

If you cross a lab with a GSD, and continuously breed together lab/GSD mixes for generations, you'll get a lab/GSD mixture. It will have lab and GSD characteristics. The way other breeds were introduced into the sheepherding dogs, they were bred in and the best pups were then immediately bred back to the sheepherding dogs. Like they infused a dog of this breed or that for size or for color, but the breed was never meant to be a cross of two distinct types. 

Our problem with the designer dog names is that scoundrels are throwing dogs together and then charging people a premium for the dogs as if they are something new and unique. The shelters are filled with shepherd and lab mixes because shepherds and labs .are 2 out of 3 of the most popular breeds out there. It's not the same thing at all.


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## Miika's Mom (Sep 23, 2013)

Correct me if I am wrong, but with the AKC you cannot take two recognized breeds and create a third.

For example, Silken Windhounds…
These are basically a cross between a borzoi and a whippet. More specifically a long-haired whippet which is not accepted as part of the whippet breed but not a recognized as a breed on its own. If the standard smooth coated whippet was used, these dogs would not have been eligible to be considered as a new breed.

I hope I remembered the explanation given to me correctly.

Very pretty puppy 🤗


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Miika's Mom said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but with the AKC you cannot take two recognized breeds and create a third.
> 
> For example, Silken Windhounds…
> These are basically a cross between a borzoi and a whippet. More specifically a long-haired whippet which is not accepted as part of the whippet breed but not a recognized as a breed on its own. If the standard smooth coated whippet was used, these dogs would not have been eligible to be considered as a new breed.
> ...


Silkens are in progress to be a new breed and are UKC recognized. There are strict requirements to become a breed through the AKC which has prevented legitimate existing breeds from being recognized by then. At 3 least generations of “pure” breeding, x-amount of dogs that meet breed type and that are in the US, and a certain number of years of breed history.

It can certainly be accomplished by using just two breeds but you can’t just keep willy nilly mixing two breeds together you have to actually put in the work to create a standardized and consistent new breed.

Also the long haired whippets were created by mixing sheltie in. They’re also called windsprites but it’s a trademarked name so they can’t use it as a breed name. Hence long haired whippets. I believe that sheltie influence caused some issues as to being able to recognize them as sighthounds which is ridiculous considering it was back in the 1950s and it’s been sighthound only since then. At this point they’re probably closer to primarily borzoi than anything else genetically and struggling with diversity already because of that.









Becoming Recognized by the AKC – American Kennel Club







www.akc.org


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

I like to 'cut to the chase' just as much as the next guy, maybe more but I think some of you had come down pretty hard on the new poster although I understand the point trying to be made. If I was the poster this is the just of what I would have gotten from replies-- "We have the real deal, high class pure bread dogs here and you have a low class mutt or mongrel, don't dare call or try to make it anything more. Ears aren't coming up, cute dog though."-- Just my observation.

As to the original post- I would bet the ears won't be coming up but I just want to share that our dogs do wonders to calm and put a smile on my dads face who is fading from psp, it is a true joy to watch and hopefully your new girl is as much help to your son.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have had several Silkens in my classes. They look like mini Borzoi but have more of a Whippet personality. If you like Borzoi, get a Borzoi. If you want a smaller dog, get a Whippet. There is a lot of inbreeding in Silkens.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

REEHGE said:


> I like to 'cut to the chase' just as much as the next guy, maybe more but I think some of you had come down pretty hard on the new poster although I understand the point trying to be made. If I was the poster this is the just of what I would have gotten from replies-- "We have the real deal, high class pure bread dogs here and you have a low class mutt or mongrel, don't dare call or try to make it anything more. Ears aren't coming up, cute dog though."-- Just my observation.
> 
> As to the original post- I would bet the ears won't be coming up but I just want to share that our dogs do wonders to calm and put a smile on my dads face who is fading from psp, it is a true joy to watch and hopefully your new girl is as much help to your son.


That makes sense if someone doesn’t know the forum. These threads aren’t just for the person who starts them. They are for the next person who does a Google search, maybe before they buy a mixed breed dog. If we don’t explain the whole situation as it unfolds and as we see it, we may be hurting the next one who comes along. I don’t think anyone posting here is as cruel as you and the OP thinks they are. The issue isn’t the dog itself, it’s trying to turn a noble and beautiful breed into a designer dog. Others have allowed that to happen to Poodles and Labs. It’s not fair to the German Shepherd breed that is designed to herd and protect to intentionally mash it into a different breed altogether. The OP’s dog is cute and is going to make a good pet for her, but we are doing nothing wrong when we point out what a German Shepherd is meant to be. It has nothing to do with cost or arrogance.

I saw a man walking a black Golden Retriever. The dog was sweet like a golden and was an accidental cross between a Black WL and a Golden. The owner of the mother gave the puppies to friends and required speuter so it wouldn’t happen again. They were not trying to call them Sheptrievers or anything else. They were pet dogs from an accidental breeding.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Oh boy.

🙄


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

LuvShepherds said:


> That makes sense if someone doesn’t know the forum. These threads aren’t just for the person who starts them. They are for the next person who does a Google search, maybe before they buy a mixed breed dog. If we don’t explain the whole situation as it unfolds and as we see it, we may be hurting the next one who comes along. I don’t think anyone posting here is as cruel as you and the OP thinks they are. The issue isn’t the dog itself, it’s trying to turn a noble and beautiful breed into a designer dog. Others have allowed that to happen to Poodles and Labs. It’s not fair to the German Shepherd breed that is designed to herd and protect to intentionally mash it into a different breed altogether. The OP’s dog is cute and is going to make a good pet for her, but we are doing nothing wrong when we point out what a German Shepherd is meant to be. It has nothing to do with cost or arrogance.
> 
> I saw a man walking a black Golden Retriever. The dog was sweet like a golden and was an accidental cross between a Black WL and a Golden. The owner of the mother gave the puppies to friends and required speuter so it wouldn’t happen again. They were not trying to call them Sheptrievers or anything else. They were pet dogs from an accidental breeding.


Sheptriever. Friggin great!


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm going to start breeding Sheagles 









I thought I was making a little joke but Cr*p someone beat me to it. But my name is far better and more marketable than the Beagle Shepherd....

There is so much wrong with this site but starting with "doggiedesigner.com" should tell you all you need to know.
"As the name suggests, the Beagle Shepherd is as the result of a cross between a Beagle and a German Shepherd.
This has resulted in *a rather distinctive looking breed of dog*, and it is certainly one that is gaining in popularity."









Beagle Shepherd (German Shepherd & Beagle Mix) | Pictures, Temperament & Traits | Hepper


The Beagle Shepherd takes the best of both the Beagle and German Shepherd and blends them into this amazing breed. Learn more from our complete guide.




doggiedesigner.com


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@WNGD I liked your post because of the humor, but not the idea of mixing breeds. What is wrong with a Corgi if someone wants a dog that resembles a German Shepherd but has short stubby legs? There is already a breed for everyone. Why create new ones?

I just checked that site. Ugh. So much wrong with it...


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

LuvShepherds said:


> @WNGD I liked your post because of the humor, but not the idea of mixing breeds. What is wrong with a Corgi if someone wants a dog that resembles a German Shepherd but has short stubby legs? There is already a breed for everyone. Why create new ones?
> 
> I just checked that site. Ugh. So much wrong with it...


While I wholeheartedly agree with you, I live in the US of A where people are allowed to do probably hundreds of things I disagree with........good, bad, or in-between I wouldn't have it any other way


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

when I was growing up I had a 3/4 lab 1/4 GSD. It was an opps litter with the male 50/50 lab / GSD. Our pup was great. Grew into a wonderful family dog. Looked more lab that shep. floppy years. Unfortunately passed away from cancer. My dad cried his eyes out. That dog was his buddy.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

A number of years ago, I was dating a guy who had 2 dogs that were the result of a cross between a GSD and a lab. They looked VERY different - you would never had known they were littermates. I don't remember a lot about their temperament, but they were good farm dogs. They got along okay with my GSD, and didn't harass the farm animals. They barked when strangers came on the property. But, my point is, mix one breed with another and you will NOT get consistency in the offspring.

One of my neighbours bred whippets. She competed with them at the international level in agility. One day, she was at the airport, shipping one of her pups to its new owner. A lady was there with a goldendoodle pup, and of course she got talking with her. Turns out the goldendoodle mutt sold to its new owner for significantly more than the other woman's purebred whippet from titled parents!

This is what makes purebred dog owners and breeders want to pull their hair out over these 'designer' breeds.

The most common cross these days are goldendoodles and labradoodles. In both cases, you are crossing a shedding breed with a non-shedding breed. The resulting coats rarely favour the non-shedding poodle. If they are half way in between, often the non-shedding coat traps the shedding hair, and creates a grooming nightmare. If the dog is not brushed on a regular basis, the hair mats and can create hotspots that require veterinary care.

If the coat favours the shedding parent, unscrupulous breeders will often dump the pups at the local shelter before it's weaned, where it will be euthanized.

Even if the coat DOES favour the poodle parent, such coats are NOT HYPOALLEGENIC!! The original doodle cross was done by a breeder trying to produce a seeing-eye dog that would not trigger the dog allergies of the blind person's husband. I think there were only 2 pups in the original litter that were truly hypoallergenic, and it had nothing to do with the dog's coat!


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

WNGD said:


> I'm going to start breeding Sheagles
> View attachment 566199
> 
> 
> ...


Too funny.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> I have had several Silkens in my classes. They look like mini Borzoi but have more of a Whippet personality. If you like Borzoi, get a Borzoi. If you want a smaller dog, get a Whippet. There is a lot of inbreeding in Silkens.


There’s a lot of inbreeding in most dog breeds including GSDs. The silkens have a couple new lines in the work to try to get some more diversity in.

I personally don’t want a borzoi or whippet but I’ve been considering silkens and the windsprites used to create them. Some of them are like a more biddable sighthound which is nice for people like me who want a lighter dog in case of emergencies/surgery but don’t want a tiny dog. A 24” silken at 40lbs is a lot nicer to pick up than my 24” lab at 70+lbs.




LuvShepherds said:


> @WNGD I liked your post because of the humor, but not the idea of mixing breeds. What is wrong with a Corgi if someone wants a dog that resembles a German Shepherd but has short stubby legs? There is already a breed for everyone. Why create new ones?
> 
> I just checked that site. Ugh. So much wrong with it...


Also I’m iffy on there being a breed for everyone. Or if there is a breed existing that fits it could be a rare breed that’s nearly impossible to get, potential common and fatal health issues in even well bred dog (some spaniels and dobermans), and/or a 4 year waiting list. There’s also the issue of breeds like GSDs getting onto more restricted lists whether it’s from bad owners and breeders or from restrictions imposed by insurance companies. But the solution definitely isn’t a bunch of random designer dogs. It’s just a fad taken off because people can make money off of them. If they weren’t a thing to make money the people wouldn’t be breeding dogs or they’d be breeding poorly bred purebreds instead.

I will say I do not like poodles, but I do know of some pretty good doodles as pets I really don’t mind. I do agree with the practice of how they’re being bred but they can fill a niche. Some of the alternate breeds people suggest are too intense of dogs for people who want family companions. A lot of temperaments that don’t suit a pet home. (My aunt’s wheaten terrier is good with other dogs considering his breed but he can still be a real jerk which isn’t great for a lot of pet homes.)


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kazel said:


> My aunt’s wheaten terrier is good with other dogs considering his breed but he can still be a real jerk which isn’t great for a lot of pet homes.


Wheatens are described as the last dog to start a fight and the last one to walk away. Dog aggression is pretty rare but they do have a tendency to be sort of in your face dogs. I really like them as a breed, not too terrier-y. Overall they are sweet, fun, smart and athletic but the coat is ridiculous. Looks gorgeous, feels awesome, I hate grooming.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Wheatens are described as the last dog to start a fight and the last one to walk away. Dog aggression is pretty rare but they do have a tendency to be sort of in your face dogs. I really like them as a breed, not too terrier-y. Overall they are sweet, fun, smart and athletic but the coat is ridiculous. Looks gorgeous, feels awesome, I hate grooming.


Interesting, I’ve not heard of them in that manner but more that they do have some typical terrier mannerisms which can cause issues with other dogs. He’s in your face in a rude pushy way and in other groups I was surprised that most people experienced dogs that were a lot worse than him(byb breeders maybe?). Actually decent dog group though. I consider him a decent dog, but he could cause issues in some pet homes because of his behaviors. My one dog has a pretty high tolerance of other dogs and he crossed her lines several times.

He’s more of a rude and could cause a fight but he isn’t one to finish fight. Kind of like a cocky guy that walks around but backs down if somebody actually calls him out.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I had at one point 11 of them in my house. My mother had two and another relative had 3. My were well bred but the adults had suffered horrific neglect, of the other 5, two had less then good breeding and the other 3 all came from the same well respected breeder.
I saw not even a trace of dog aggression or even real pushy behavior. One of my males suffered from something similar to rage syndrome and even he never went after another dog.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Kazel said:


> There’s a lot of inbreeding in most dog breeds including GSDs. The silkens have a couple new lines in the work to try to get some more diversity in.
> 
> I personally don’t want a borzoi or whippet but I’ve been considering silkens and the windsprites used to create them. Some of them are like a more biddable sighthound which is nice for people like me who want a lighter dog in case of emergencies/surgery but don’t want a tiny dog. A 24” silken at 40lbs is a lot nicer to pick up than my 24” lab at 70+lbs.
> 
> ...


Standard poodles make good pets. They have different temperaments than the miniatures.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Very few used this way any longer but they can be the equal of any gun dog. Not my pic


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

They are also extremely smart, from what I've heard!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

My son's in-laws purchased a golden a while back. They do nothing with it. BYB dog. Spends most of its time in a crate.

They are going to pick up their new poodle this week to start their BYB golden doodle breeding program because they can make a bunch of money with a nice website.

Me head wants to explode. His MIL knows everything about everything and will not have a conversation about dogs with me.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

David Winners said:


> My son's in-laws purchased a golden a while back. They do nothing with it. BYB dog. Spends most of its time in a crate.
> 
> They are going to pick up their new poodle this week to start their BYB golden doodle breeding program because they can make a bunch of money with a nice website.
> 
> Me head wants to explode. His MIL knows everything about everything and will not have a conversation about dogs with me.


That would be someone I would never spend any time around if I could avoid it. I would not be as polite as you are. My verbiage would explode.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm sure there are nice ones out there, but I have yet to meet a goldendoodle that wasn't crazy. Yeah, probably lack of training to blame, from ignorant owners who want the latest 'fad' in dogs...

Have also had a doodle owner come in for grooming, and tell me 'the breeder said we didn't need to do anything with his coat until he was a year old' 

Needless to say, the dog's coat was a nightmare, and so was the groom, because the dog wasn't used to the clippers!


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> My son's in-laws purchased a golden a while back. They do nothing with it. BYB dog. Spends most of its time in a crate.
> 
> They are going to pick up their new poodle this week to start their BYB golden doodle breeding program because they can make a bunch of money with a nice website.
> 
> Me head wants to explode. His MIL knows everything about everything and will not have a conversation about dogs with me.


My grandma has a 2 "labradoodles" that she payed 4000 apiece for and shipped to Tennessee from St. Louis.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

LuvShepherds said:


> That would be someone I would never spend any time around if I could avoid it. I would not be as polite as you are. My verbiage would explode.


I don't talk to her. It wouldn't benefit anyone involved.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It's the reason you end up with bad genetics for a lot of money. No ethical breeder breeds those dogs


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Bearshandler said:


> My grandma has a 2 "labradoodles" that she payed 4000 apiece for and shipped to Tennessee from St. Louis.


Well, that's the going price for "designer dogs"  

I have talked to people that don't understand it's not a breed and that when they buy one here vs there, they are just getting a mix of two unknown dogs vs 2 unknown dogs and not at all the same as their friends doodle ....


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

WNGD said:


> Well, that's the going price for "designer dogs"
> 
> I have talked to people that don't understand it's not a breed and that when they buy one here vs there, they are just getting a mix of two unknown dogs vs 2 unknown dogs and not at all the same as their friends doodle ....


I don't see any point in having the conversation. No one would leave happy.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I don't see any point in having the conversation. No one would leave happy.


It might change someone’s mind. I’m not rude, but I’m direct. Have you though about A, B, or C? To a potential BYB: What if you can’t sell the puppies? What if you need to call in a vet or rush to emergency and that cost wipes out any profits? What if the dog only has a few puppies? What if they are unhealthy and need care before they can be sold? What is your liability if you knowingly sell a sick dog? Do you have insurance or extra money to cover a suit if they take you to small claims court and you lose? Are you willing to cull puppies if something goes wrong? There are so many things a novice with dollar signs in their eyes never thinks of until it’s too late.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

WNGD said:


> I'm going to start breeding Sheagles
> View attachment 566199
> 
> 
> ...


Years ago I was in a dog class with my Golden. There was a beagle/shepherd mix in class. It had the body of a beagle with the full head of a shepherd. Craziest thing I ever saw. It looked like body never grew with the head. Sort of like a Corgi but scarier. lol 

I don’t advocate for shepherd/lab crosses, but the ones I met were good family dogs. I always thought those breeds just happen to compliment each other.


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## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

IllinoisNative said:


> Years ago I was in a dog class with my Golden. There was a beagle/shepherd mix in class. It had the body of a beagle with the full head of a shepherd. Craziest thing I ever saw. It looked like body never grew with the head. Sort of like a Corgi but scarier. lol
> 
> I don’t advocate for shepherd/lab crosses, but the ones I met were good family dogs. I always thought those breeds just happen to compliment each other.


Agree. Our first dog was a labxshepherd and a wonderful, incredibly smart, well- behaved dog. But I got him for $80 from a local humane society and always talk about our “pound mutt” when describing him. It wasn’t to minimize him as a dog - it was the truth and we didn’t love him any less for it.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> It might change someone’s mind. I’m not rude, but I’m direct. Have you though about A, B, or C? To a potential BYB: What if you can’t sell the puppies? What if you need to call in a vet or rush to emergency and that cost wipes out any profits? What if the dog only has a few puppies? What if they are unhealthy and need care before they can be sold? What is your liability if you knowingly sell a sick dog? Do you have insurance or extra money to cover a suit if they take you to small claims court and you lose? Are you willing to cull puppies if something goes wrong? There are so many things a novice with dollar signs in their eyes never thinks of until it’s too late.


I was refereing to my grandma. I'm not changing her mind.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I have had mixes that were excellent dogs and we loved them. It’s one thing to rescue or take a mixed puppy that someone is giving away. Another to pay top prices for a fabricated “breed” and then act like it’s a purebred. Distinctions matter.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> I was refereing to my grandma. I'm not changing her mind.


Never argue with Grandma.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Well, I think people were a bit hard on the OP...
My dog is a rescue and he is a shepherd/husky mix. 
But instead of saying "german shepherd husky mix" all the time (what a mouthful!), I was happy to discover that somebody had given this mix an 'official' name: "Shepsky".
So for awhile I called my dog a _Shepsky_ - but nobody knew what that was...so now I'm back to saying "shepherd husky mix". 
Anyway I did not think about "designer breeds" and ripping people off...I just found it a convenient short way to say what he was...until I found out that "shepsky" is not like "labradoodle"...nobody has heard of it.


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## BigOzzy2018 (Jan 27, 2018)

David Winners said:


> My son's in-laws purchased a golden a while back. They do nothing with it. BYB dog. Spends most of its time in a crate.
> 
> They are going to pick up their new poodle this week to start their BYB golden doodle breeding program because they can make a bunch of money with a nice website.
> 
> Me head wants to explode. His MIL knows everything about everything and will not have a conversation about dogs with me.


That is hard for sure especially when it’s family. Poor dogs. I could not keep quiet though hence I’d be kicked out of the family.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GSDchoice said:


> Well, I think people were a bit hard on the OP...
> My dog is a rescue and he is a shepherd/husky mix.
> But instead of saying "german shepherd husky mix" all the time (what a mouthful!), I was happy to discover that somebody had given this mix an 'official' name: "Shepsky".
> So for awhile I called my dog a _Shepsky_ - but nobody knew what that was...so now I'm back to saying "shepherd husky mix".
> Anyway I did not think about "designer breeds" and ripping people off...I just found it a convenient short way to say what he was...until I found out that "shepsky" is not like "labradoodle"...nobody has heard of it.


I don't think people are hard on the OP, to point out that they are using dogs to exploit people. I think that the point of sites like these is to educate folks on things that are detrimental to the breed or to dogs in general. To just say nothing, and leave the thread to those who will just say, "Cute pup, no, those ears aren't likely to stand," we are doing a disservice to dogs and other people who can be sucked into the designer dog scam. 

I don't think any of us were saying that the dogs themselves are not worth having love and training and having all of its needs met, that the owner should not enjoy their pet. I think it is clear that we do not like the glamorization of a practice that hurts dogs and scams people. 

And, if you referred to your dog as a "shepsky" we'd probably have said something similar, because anyone who just thinks it's cute to call the dogs by these names, doesn't realize that this is a major problem. 

And folks that might have been on here for years still don't understand that a breed of dogs is not created by throwing purebred dogs together willy-nilly. I wouldn't be surprised if some shelters in places got on the bandwagon to use the cutesy names to earn their pound pups homes, but my guess is that they probably quit that quickly when they realized that folks were deliberately creating crosses and putting exorbitant price tags on them, all for the money. 

I think sometimes that the younger generation is a little too sensitive for their good, and sometimes bruised feelings are going to happen when folks are not being bullies or intentionally mean, only that for some, agreement is the only thing that does not offend. It isn't helpful to these folks to walk around on eggshells, not if it means they or others are scammed and dogs exploited.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I called my mixes cute names, never trying to pass them off as designer dogs. It was just more fun to use a blended name. But it is also important to not fall for the designer dog maneuver. I have family who have a lovely dog that was supposed to be a purposeful mix. Their dog is a nice mutt, smart, handsome, fairly obedient. But the only one who survived parvo from the entire litter. They learned a number of things the hard way. One thing, it was most likely an oops litter put together with little thought. But a cute name made the asking price more palatable. By the way, they were refunded the $$ for the pup.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSDchoice said:


> Well, I think people were a bit hard on the OP..


I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Not a single reply said anything derogatory or nasty. She yelled at me! I quoted 5 posts or so that all said cute dog, nice dog, pretty dog. Not a single negative response. Who was mean to her?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Triggers Triggers Everywhere....

I can't figure out of the latest threads are being started to trigger the members of the board or if the responses of the threads are triggering the posters.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

@selzer @Sabis mom Someone doesn’t need to be young to be overly sensitive. It seems to have embedded itself into our culture. The real fight against bullying has created a scenario where you risk being attacked and verbally abused for being honest. We have to worry about hurting people’s feelings for things that are not or should not be an issue. No one said anything that is remotely offensive to the owner, nor did we criticize her dog. She has a cute dog. We just took issue with the cutesy breed name and the history behind designer dogs. That is important to address and discuss. If we lose sight of why we began that tangent, then we haven’t explained it well enough. I think we have done the right thing,


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Triggers Triggers Everywhere....
> 
> I can't figure out of the latest threads are being started to trigger the members of the board or if the responses of the threads are triggering the posters.


Both. There are a lot of pet type newbies here, which is fine. We are, after all, the biggest and best dog forum in the Internet. So we are going to attract all kinds of members and perspectives. That is a good thing. If you go back 5-10 years, most of the people posting then are gone. Interests change, dogs pass away. Those of us who stick around tend to be more resilient and informed. This is a tough forum to be new on. When I first started one member was awful to me. So I left. When I returned a few years later, she had been banned. Overall, though, if a new member is polite and doesn’t flounce off, they can become active members like the rest of us. It’s their choice.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Man this will trigger a few more.

 *Just found this for sale. Introducing the Saint Berdoodle
Starting at just $4500!*
Saint Berdoodle puppies for sale, also spelled St. Berdoodle puppies. We breed Mini to X Large Saint- Berdoodle puppies and have beautiful puppies for sale. Saint Berdoodles are known as one of the Best family dogs. They are a low to Non Shedding, no drooling, Hypoallergenic type of Dog breed for the curlier coated puppies.

We have puppies who will be ready to go in Nov/ Dec whose photos are not yet posted. Prices start at $4500.00 and go higher depending on the color, coat and markings. We also have retired adults and young adults coming available, prices starting at $2500.00 and go higher.

We breed medium to X large size puppies, but also mini and smaller size Saint Berdoodle puppies for family's who love the breed and their outstanding temperaments, but prefer a smaller size dog.

Saint Bernard x Poodle puppies are known as Saint Berdoodle puppies, St. Berdoodle puppies.

Cute MUTTS!


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

WNGD said:


> *Starting at just $4500!*
> Saint Berdoodle puppies for sale, also spelled St. Berdoodle puppies. We breed Mini to X Large Saint- Berdoodle puppies and have beautiful puppies for sale. Saint Berdoodles are known as one of the Best family dogs. They are a low to Non Shedding, no drooling, Hypoallergenic type of Dog breed for the curlier coated puppies.
> 
> We have puppies who will be ready to go in Nov/ Dec whose photos are not yet posted. Prices start at $4500.00 and go higher depending on the color, coat and markings. We also have retired adults and young adults coming available, prices starting at $2500.00 and go higher.
> ...


Wow the possibilities are endless I guess🥴.....Seems like it would be an act of desperation to make a breeding happen between such differently sized dogs let alone other issues?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

WNGD said:


> Man this will trigger a few more.
> 
> *Just found this for sale. Introducing the Saint Berdoodle
> Starting at just $4500!*
> ...


mini to XLarge. Sounds like they are selling tee shirts. Ugh.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Wouldn't like to have one for free


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That first pic is cute, but for 4.5k, it would have to poop golden nuggets, to get me to spend that on a mongrel, puppy or adult. Mutt, Mongrel, Mix -- all of them sound derogatory, when that isn't the point. I have spent more than that for a purebred dog, but that was for a specific purpose. And one can get very nice, well-bred purebred dogs for far less than 4.5k.


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## Doug4 (Mar 14, 2015)

Nice looking dog. I have owned pure bread since I was 6 years old except one . I am almost 70’and have hade 7 Dogs and they were all great companion to family. His name was Pal and was a shepherd/ collie mix. He was s fantastic dog. As others stated trained him well socialize with other dogs and people and enjoy your néw family member .


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## Inlinek9 (Dec 11, 2019)

Besides the inconsistencies in physical attributes with crossbreds, there's another issue that should be of concern for buyers of these "designer" dogs: Are these breeders using the best and healthiest representatives of each breed for their breeding stock? Have the parents been tested to be sure they're free of genetic diseases such as HD, for example? Does either parent exhibit any major temperament issues such as shyness or fear-aggression, etc? How about longevity in their lines, or how about diseases that might skip a generation and might not appear until the pup has matured? 

What is the purpose of breeding the two different purebred dogs to each other beyond trying to make a lot of money? 

I doubt that the breeders of these designer dogs are using the best they could find of each breed to use as breeding stock. That would significantly cut into the profits they're hoping to make.

Why seek out a top representative of each breed, paying top dollar from a reputable breeder for a dog that will be used to breed to a completely different breed, when pups from the breeding of two backyard-bred dogs could be sold just as easily?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Inlinek9 said:


> Besides the inconsistencies in physical attributes with crossbreds, there's another issue that should be of concern for buyers of these "designer" dogs: Are these breeders using the best and healthiest representatives of each breed for their breeding stock? Have the parents been tested to be sure they're free of genetic diseases such as HD, for example? Does either parent exhibit any major temperament issues such as shyness or fear-aggression, etc? How about longevity in their lines, or how about diseases that might skip a generation and might not appear until the pup has matured?
> 
> What is the purpose of breeding the two different purebred dogs to each other beyond trying to make a lot of money?
> 
> ...


There are actually mixed breed breeders who would like to use well bred dogs. But there’s such a stigma against crossbreeds, for both the breeder of mixes and any breeder who would contribute dogsto such a program. It actually a Code of Ethics violation in some breed clubs to knowingly participate.

I think this is a problem of sorts because we would not have many breeds today if this stigma had been around in before this, and the health issues in some breed indicate it may not be a wholly sustainable outlook. Just look at the LUA/HUA Dalmatian project or the health status of the Doberman breed. We may not have GSDs if just over a 100 years ago we had viewed the formation of new breeds as we do today. What real need was there for GSDs? Did he not just want a wolfy looking herder? Why couldn't he have just stuck with existing tending breeds and land races instead of mixing them?

Now I will agree the majority of mixes and “designer dogs” in general are byb or from poor breeders. But so are most purebreds. So perhaps we ought to check our biases? Lurchers commonly outperform purebreds and many landrace breeds were more or less purpose bred mutts that ended up with a consistent type likely largely due to geographical limitations and personal preferences.

One of the spaniel breeds today (I can never remember what) is actually a recreation of an older extinct breed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Inlinek9 said:


> Besides the inconsistencies in physical attributes with crossbreds, there's another issue that should be of concern for buyers of these "designer" dogs: Are these breeders using the best and healthiest representatives of each breed for their breeding stock? Have the parents been tested to be sure they're free of genetic diseases such as HD, for example? Does either parent exhibit any major temperament issues such as shyness or fear-aggression, etc? How about longevity in their lines, or how about diseases that might skip a generation and might not appear until the pup has matured?
> 
> What is the purpose of breeding the two different purebred dogs to each other beyond trying to make a lot of money?
> 
> ...


Well, of course, if you go by what the shelters put out how if you buy a mutt, you will pay x, a purebred Y; training for a mutt will cost you this little amount, a purebred, thousands; Nutrition will cost you cents per day for a mutt, and DOLLARS for purebreds. Veterinary care -- a couple of hundred for a mutt and thousands for a purebred and the list actually went on. 

So, these mutt-creators are probably thinking that by breeding outside of the lines their animals will be healthier than either breed is. When in fact, all the crap behind each dog is just as likely as if both were of the same breed.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Kazel said:


> There are actually mixed breed breeders who would like to use well bred dogs. But there’s such a stigma against crossbreeds, for both the breeder of mixes and any breeder who would contribute dogsto such a program. It actually a Code of Ethics violation in some breed clubs to knowingly participate.
> 
> I think this is a problem of sorts because we would not have many breeds today if this stigma had been around in before this, and the health issues in some breed indicate it may not be a wholly sustainable outlook. Just look at the LUA/HUA Dalmatian project or the health status of the Doberman breed. We may not have GSDs if just over a 100 years ago we had viewed the formation of new breeds as we do today. What real need was there for GSDs? Did he not just want a wolfy looking herder? Why couldn't he have just stuck with existing tending breeds and land races instead of mixing them?
> 
> ...


There is a huge difference between producing f1 crosses for money and developing a specific breed for a purpose.

Purpose bred mutts are how many working breeds developed. Work being the purpose. That's different than a doodle IMO.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

David Winners said:


> There is a huge difference between producing f1 crosses for money and developing a specific breed for a purpose.
> 
> Purpose bred mutts are how many working breeds developed. Work being the purpose. That's different than a doodle IMO.


The first doodles were bred for working purposes. Unfortunately the scammers and crappy breeders got wind of the new marketing opportunity and it took off and has kind of spiraled out of control. I fully agree with the issue of designer dogs. People used to do the same thing with purebred though, mutts are just the newest fad and where the money is.

That said I do understand why they have taken off as much as they have, particularly in the case of doodles. I hope in the future the programs working to create a standard breed out of them can succeed and work towards that. But there will always be scammers and people who have no idea what they’re doing. Also many small breeds are developed for companion purposes. Some people don’t need more than a pet.

How many on here people get told they should go get a golden? (technically also a working dog and it shows in some dogs/lines. Actually a lot of the medium to large breeds are working dogs). We complain on here about people wanting GSDs but not being able to handle them, but we also aren’t happy with what animals they’re choosing instead. And unfortunately the “purebred snob” network and only being able to breed one litter a year sort of mentality has really hurt the purebred community and the access for the average dog owner, who may be a great dog owner but doesn’t understand the intricacies of the dog world and how to approach or find a good breeder.

Sadly I’ve seen a lot of issues when people are trying to find good breeders, meanwhile the purebred and designer dog scammers market like crazy and have “customer service” down to a pat. “Oh you want a puppy? We have just the thing for you.”


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Way back in the 70's or early 80's someone produced a Cockapoo. All these years later we still have no consistency and no clear idea what the heck the purpose was. 
Poodles come in a variety of colors, have low shed coats and are available in three sizes. They are highly intelligent, responsive to their owners and have been successfully trained for a variety of tasks and jobs.
What needs improvement?


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sabis mom said:


> Way back in the 70's or early 80's someone produced a Cockapoo. All these years later we still have no consistency and no clear idea what the heck the purpose was.
> Poodles come in a variety of colors, have low shed coats and are available in three sizes. They are highly intelligent, responsive to their owners and have been successfully trained for a variety of tasks and jobs.
> What needs improvement?


The problem is one feels cool to say they have a poodle...but a Labradoodle, now there's a dog....


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> Way back in the 70's or early 80's someone produced a Cockapoo. All these years later we still have no consistency and no clear idea what the heck the purpose was.
> Poodles come in a variety of colors, have low shed coats and are available in three sizes. They are highly intelligent, responsive to their owners and have been successfully trained for a variety of tasks and jobs.
> What needs improvement?


Pudelpointers are a thing so obviously people have felt that poodles weren’t all the end all be all in times other than right now. They aren’t going away anything soon so I’d rather people support the Cobberdog and Bearded Retriever programs instead of just reaming on people looking for doodles because that only increases a rather concerning gap.

My priority first and foremost for any dog breeding is to normalize health testing and prioritizing stable temperaments (temperaments can be an issue in some crosses such as LGDs with herders). Focusing on breeding purebred dogs and well bred dogs will be a lot easier if we can get more people focusing on that without hammering down on them being purebred. This is my thoughts based on actual psychology principles, easily understandable as getting your foot in the door. Start small and work up. Especially with companion dogs it’s a lot easier to get people to want health testing because they love their dogs and want them to be healthy.

(Also in the US with AKC parti-poodles are off standard so there is some breed drama and such over that.)


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> Pudelpointers are a thing so obviously people have felt that poodles weren’t all the end all be all in times other than right now. They aren’t going away anything soon so I’d rather people support the Cobberdog and Bearded Retriever programs instead of just reaming on people looking for doodles because that only increases a rather concerning gap.
> 
> My priority first and foremost for any dog breeding is to normalize health testing and prioritizing stable temperaments (*temperaments can be an issue in some crosses such as LGDs with herders*). Focusing on breeding purebred dogs and well bred dogs will be a lot easier if we can get more people focusing on that without hammering down on them being purebred. This is my thoughts based on actual psychology principles, easily understandable as getting your foot in the door. Start small and work up. Especially with companion dogs it’s a lot easier to get people to want health testing because they love their dogs and want them to be healthy.
> 
> (Also in the US with AKC parti-poodles are off standard so there is some breed drama and such over that.)


The bolded, can you expound on that?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The bolded, can you expound on that?


Maybe less temperament in that case and more drives. Crossing breeds with conflicting drives can create puppies with issues and conflicting drives. LGDs mixed with herders area great example in my opinion. You can create dogs that want to herd and protect but can’t really do both at once very well. A common issue is the dogs herding all the stock into a very small area and then guarding them in that area. Perhaps how tending breeds came about now that I think of it? I know some breeds are described as protective of stock but they aren’t go and live with them like LGDs and will still herd them, but not as a need to fulfill a drive like some more intense breeds.

If you put a herding dog and an LGD together, particularly without human intervention and training of the LGD the LGD would be expected to protect the stock from the herding dog. I’ve seen this in person.

If you mix hunting dogs with herding dogs you can have issues of dogs latching onto stock and not letting go when the hunting drive kicks in. Herding dogs will bite and such too, but it’s a lot different. I will admit I’m not wholly familiar with how baying breeds work when herding other than basic theory.

Also on here we talk about thresholds and mixing dogs that have different temperaments and don’t have the proper complimentary traits to handle the mixture. So along those lines


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am a big fan of not mixing types for the reasons you stated. Was just curious as to your personal experience with crossing LGDs to herders. Not a good mix in my opinion. Thanks!


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am a big fan of not mixing types for the reasons you stated. Was just curious as to your personal experience with crossing LGDs to herders. Not a good mix in my opinion. Thanks!


I think a lot of breeds can produce very good temperament mixes. GSDs commonly seem to be a breed with issues in mixes. But I think a large part of that is the dogs being mixed. As somebody else pointed out many mixes (except active working dogs maybe) are likely to be poorly bred dogs. Mainly because even responsible cross bred breeders may struggle to get reputably bred dogs in their program.

Somebody wants to use pet line/overly friendly Great Pyrenees to help create a long lived line of larger service dogs, particularly for mobility assistance I would assume. LGDs tend to be long lived proving that large and extra large dogs really should not be having issues living to 14-15. Heck wolves in captivity can regularly live into their teens. As such I’m very against normalizing short longevity in breeds when 14 could be a very realistic number for dogs like GSDs. And fairly healthy old dogs too, not old and suffering and half in the grave by 12 and hanging on until 14.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Could the larger size be the result of hybrid vigor? I knew a dog Mal x Groenendael who was larger than the average GSD, also tall legs, solid black with smooth coat. It was a deliberate cross between two sport dogs. This was in Holland years ago.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I view well bred WL GSDs as temperament improvers.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I view well bred WL GSDs as temperament improvers.


I’d wonder if, and only if, the working lines had any true protective/guarding instincts if the temperament from whatever dog was crossed could handle it. If you combine a serious and natural protector with a happy go lucky dog, what could that look like in the puppies?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> I’d wonder if, and only if, the working lines had any true protective/guarding instincts if the temperament from whatever dog was crossed could handle it. If you combine a serious and natural protector with a happy go lucky dog, what could that look like in the puppies?


You make a valid point but my point is that it would be the other breed that would be problematic, not the GSD.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Kazel said:


> I’d wonder if, and only if, the working lines had any true protective/guarding instincts if the temperament from whatever dog was crossed could handle it. If you combine a serious and natural protector with a happy go lucky dog, what could that look like in the puppies?


A Lab x GSD mix. I like these.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You make a valid point but my point is that it would be the other breed that would be problematic, not the GSD.


I wouldn’t say either breed was problematic, just that together they do not mesh well. But I think because of certain traits certain breeds may be less ideal in crosses depending on the purpose.
A mal/GSD or sighthound x herder bred for work or sport is far different than breeding a GSD/golden or a Caucasian Ovcharka x golden for companionship.

Also honestly I think the bigger issues is well bred WL are likely not what is going into the GSD crosses. And there are many fearful and reactive byb GSDs who aren’t good for breeding purebred or mixed dogs. Too many people confuse fear with being protective. To me when the dog has it’s tail tucked and is backing away or hiding behind me that is not protective. Yet many people will call it just that. And those dogs and people are breeding the majority of mixes. And the people who may want well bred dogs for a cross bred project may have some difficult with it, unless it’s a working military/police program.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

wolfy dog said:


> A Lab x GSD mix. I like these.


Mine has issues that I believe are directly related to being lab x GSD. She was the perfect dog until after her first heat cycle and then she became conflicted about strangers. She truly does seem torn between running up and saying hi and evaluating them and it seems to create uncertainty that turns into a fear based reaction.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

"GSDs commonly seem to be a breed with issues in mixes."

I was just going off of your broad generalization that seemed to present GSDs as crappers. If you had qualified your statement with byb GSDs I would not have bothered to comment on it.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> "GSDs commonly seem to be a breed with issues in mixes."
> 
> I was just going off of your broad generalization that seemed to present GSDs as crappers. If you had qualified your statement with byb GSDs I would not have bothered to comment on it.


How does a dog not producing great mixed breeds mean the breed is a “crapper”? If you mix a Pyrenees with a border collie and the puppies were terrible herders or not great pets would those dogs be considered crappers? Because an ill fitted pairing produced what makes sense, not what people wanted it to?

I think also we just have a general communication issue where we could probably say the exact same thing and think the other meant something different. Along with that my thoughts tend to be far thought out compared to what I put. I’ve not yet mastered being concise and shorter and actually putting my overall meaning down. Something I need to work on.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> How does a dog not producing great mixed breeds mean the breed is a “crapper”? If you mix a Pyrenees with a border collie and the puppies were terrible herders or not great pets would those dogs be considered crappers? Because an ill fitted pairing produced what makes sense, not what people wanted it to?
> 
> I think also we just have a general communication issue where we could probably say the exact same thing and think the other meant something different. Along with that my thoughts tend to be far thought out compared to what I put. I’ve not yet mastered being concise and shorter and actually putting my overall meaning down. Something I need to work on.


A well bred GSD should be an asset when added to another breed, a temperament improver. Anything less would make them an overall crapper.

Whatever breed that was the result of a litter being crappers, be it one or both parents, is the originator of the crapper genes. No mystery involved, simple genetics.

No communication issue on my end. My comments tend to precision and bluntness as well as a profound love and respect for well bred GSDs.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Way back in the 70's or early 80's someone produced a Cockapoo. All these years later we still have no consistency and no clear idea what the heck the purpose was.
> Poodles come in a variety of colors, have low shed coats and are available in three sizes. They are highly intelligent, responsive to their owners and have been successfully trained for a variety of tasks and jobs.
> What needs improvement?


I think the first ones were accidents, and marketing came later.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> A well bred GSD should be an asset when added to another breed, a temperament improver. Anything less would make them an overall crapper.
> 
> Whatever breed that was the result of a litter being crappers, be it one or both parents, is the originator of the crapper genes. No mystery involved, simple genetics.
> 
> No communication issue on my end. My comments tend to precision and bluntness as well as a profound love and respect for well bred GSDs.


When we are talking hypotheticals about GSDs, we should always be looking at breed standard and the best of the breed. I also agree that when people throw together poorly bred dogs of any breed for a cross, they can easily end up with the worst characteristics of the parents used vs the best of the breed. I’ve heard people say a mixed breed is always better because they get rid of bad characteristics. What if the puppies inherit only the bad traits of the parents? Where will they get high quality characteristics of a breed if they aren’t present in the parents? To me, that shows how urban legend gets started and gains ground.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> When we are talking hypotheticals about GSDs, we should always be looking at breed standard and the best of the breed. I also agree that when people throw together poorly bred dogs of any breed for a cross, they can easily end up with the worst characteristics of the parents used vs the best of the breed. I’ve heard people say a mixed breed is always better because they get rid of bad characteristics. What if the puppies inherit only the bad traits of the parents? Where will they get high quality characteristics of a breed if they aren’t present in the parents? To me, that shows how urban legend gets started and gains ground.


This.. byb or poorly bred should not be held as representative of this breed or any other breed.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kazel said:


> Pudelpointers are a thing so obviously people have felt that poodles weren’t all the end all be all in times other than right now.


They were also developed over a century ago, in the hands of one individual and are a cross between two similar minded dogs. He spent several decades perfecting the breed. This is a huge difference from every Joe crossing whatever is handy. I don't object to producing viable working dogs. I object to people producing random mutts and giving them cute names and high price tags. Collie and GSD is a nice cross that tends to produce good dogs. No one has given them a cutesy name and said they were worth more, yet as mutts go it tends toward a steady, loyal, farm type dog that still retains viable drives. And they have been a thing forever.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Sabis mom said:


> They were also developed over a century ago, in the hands of one individual and are a cross between two similar minded dogs. He spent several decades perfecting the breed. This is a huge difference from every Joe crossing whatever is handy. I don't object to producing viable working dogs. I object to people producing random mutts and giving them cute names and high price tags.


I agree, that’s why I brought up Cobberdogs and bearded retrievers. (An actual goal for a breed) I don’t think them being created over a century ago is relevant other than the fact that he would be blasted for doing so today. I suppose I don’t know how well it was received back then though.

My point though is somebody decided that neither of those purebred dogs (poodle or pointers) was what they wanted, and so they made a new breed. I think it’s odd to say it’s only an acceptable thing to do for working dogs and not companion dogs, when the majority of dogs are companion dogs. Although I am also aware that in companion dogs it’s more likely (but also happens in working dogs too) for people to just being doing random mixes. But I’m on the stance that companionship is an acceptable reason to create a new breed as long as it’s done properly. Silken windhounds seem pretty put together and are working towards breed recognition.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Kazel said:


> I agree, that’s why I brought up Cobberdogs and bearded retrievers. (An actual goal for a breed) I don’t think them being created over a century ago is relevant other than the fact that he would be blasted for doing so today. I suppose I don’t know how well it was received back then though.
> 
> My point though is somebody decided that neither of those purebred dogs (poodle or pointers) was what they wanted, and so they made a new breed. I think it’s odd to say it’s only an acceptable thing to do for working dogs and not companion dogs, when the majority of dogs are companion dogs. Although I am also aware that in companion dogs it’s more likely (but also happens in working dogs too) for people to just being doing random mixes. But I’m on the stance that companionship is an acceptable reason to create a new breed as long as it’s done properly. Silken windhounds seem pretty put together and are working towards breed recognition.


That was my point. There is a difference between a person or group working to achieve a goal and thinking it through and random people crossing random dogs for money.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Sabis mom said:


> Collie and GSD is a nice cross that tends to produce good dogs.* No one has given them a cutesy name* and said they were worth more, yet as mutts go it tends toward a steady, loyal, farm type dog that still retains viable drives. And they have been a thing forever.


Curiosity got the best of me...The mix is called a Shollie... Most of what I'm seeing is a Border Collie/GSD but I did see some Collie/GSD breeders using the same name. (Shollie)


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Curiosity got the best of me...The mix is called a Shollie... Most of what I'm seeing is a Border Collie/GSD but I did see some Collie/GSD breeders using the same name. (Shollie)


Wonderful. Although that probably isn't cutesy enough to attract attention. And no. Not Border Collie. That mix tends to produce unstable, hectic dogs prone to aggression.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

while many mix breeds are wonderful companion dogs, crossing 2 purebreds does not create a breed. A new breed takes multiple crosses to be produced and generations of those dogs to be bred to come to completion of a breed - there has to be a game plan and a vision of a final product. Much as I don't like people doing this, Shilohs come to mind....there are generations of Shilohs behind current dogs, and health testing being done by the more dedicated breeders.

Horse people do things like breeding a draft horse to a TB or an Arab and then they think they have the equivilent of a Trakhener or a Holsteiner warmblood.....does not work that way....a cross bred is a mixed breed not any breed name combo people make up.....

I am sure the dog is sweet and the OP loves it and I hope it does everything she expects....but it is still a mix breed.

Lee


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