# What does everyone think of this?(leerburg.com)



## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

So I was browsing dog training on agression and ended up on leesburg.com I wasn't surprised the many stories I found on german shepherd and pit bull attack stories so I was curious to read them thouroughly as my dog now shows signs of agression. Anyway I came to realize that Ed Frawley believes in negative reinforcement as part of his training..? I can't imagine anyone practicing that type of training techniques on their GSD on this forum? Tomorrow I am meeting with professional dog trainer and I made sure that she doesn't practice negative reinfocement. What do yall think of this famous dog trainer?! This is what Ed had to say about his dog. 

"I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life (I bought him when he was 5 years old). This dog will viscously try and attack another dog through a fence when I let him out of the kennel. This is going to blow the minds of the Goody-two-shoes and the phooo phooo Halty and Clicker people that read my web site - but I have stopped this dog’s fence fighting. It took three 30 second training sessions. I simply told him “NO” and hit him over the head with a kennel shovel. The reason it took three sessions was because I did not know how thick this dog’s head was - I really had to whack him hard on the third session to get his attention. Now he knows that there are consequences to fence fighting"


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

LOL! Guess that's one way of doing it. Personally, I avoid this type of 'training'.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

julie87 said:


> So I was browsing dog training on agression and ended up on leesburg.com I wasn't surprised the many stories I found on german shepherd and pit bull attack stories so I was curious to read them thouroughly as my dog now shows signs of agression. Anyway I came to realize that Ed Frawley believes in negative reinforcement as part of his training..? I can't imagine anyone practicing that type of training techniques on their GSD on this forum? Tomorrow I am meeting with professional dog trainer and I made sure that she doesn't practice *negative reinfocement*. What do yall think of this famous dog trainer?! This is what Ed had to say about his dog.
> 
> "I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life (I bought him when he was 5 years old). This dog will viscously try and attack another dog through a fence when I let him out of the kennel. This is going to blow the minds of the Goody-two-shoes and the phooo phooo Halty and Clicker people that read my web site - but I have stopped this dog’s fence fighting. It took three 30 second training sessions. I simply told him “NO” and hit him over the head with a kennel shovel. The reason it took three sessions was because I did not know how thick this dog’s head was - I really had to whack him hard on the third session to get his attention. Now he knows that there are consequences to fence fighting"


 
Does that mean she can't say "NO" to the dog? Or just no shovels?


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## FlyAway (Jul 17, 2012)

Good way to give your dog epilepsy. I had a fence fighter. He would still look over the fence, but when I was told him to get in the house, he hustled. No head bashing needed, just food.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

No shovels, codmaster - clicker and cookies.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

We use electricity to deter fence fighting :shrug:


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

What, you turn on some bright lights or something???


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They may see bright lights when they bite the fence which zaps them? I don't know.
They don't go back to it, so it works.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That's a pretty extreme example! But that's not negative reinforcement, it would actually be positive punishment. The four quadrants of operant conditioning are positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment. 

We think of positive as good and negative as bad, but in this context, "positive" means adding something - either a reinforcement to increase the occurrence of a behavior, or an aversive is used as punishment, to decrease the occurrence of a behavior. "Negative" means taking something away - again, either something good, or something bad. Here's a link about operant conditioning: ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- A Beginner's Guide to Operant Conditioning

Here's an interesting article about negative punishment, which is often used with positive reinforcement: Negative Punishment (and Why It Is Great) clickswithdogs

Rather than getting too hung up on the terminology, I would just meet with the trainer, ask about her methods and discuss your concerns.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

How on earth could not whacking a dog over the head with a shovel (_really???_) be equated to never saying "no"? I say no to my dogs all the time, but I draw the line at "training" that could cause brain damage.


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## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

when my dogs are fence fighting, I grab a plastic jug that has rocks in it, shake it, and they stop. No rhyme or reason to it, other than one time when they were actively fighting with each other, I shook it and didn't get their attention so I threw it at them. I did not do so gracefully either...landed flat on my face, I threw it with such force. I think the shock of seeing me fall on my face shocked them into responding and they link it to the shake of the jug.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The shovel is definitely extreme but how you deal with agression needs to take into account the SOURCE of the agression with the first thing step if this is new, a medical exam to make sure there is not a problem (thyroid being a common cause)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd also like to say, fence fighting is extremely common. I deal with it by avoiding having it occur.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Is this dog fence fighting or is it something else? I know the example from Leerburg was fence fighting but I the OP did not state her own issue.

FWIW I never thought Ed Frawley was a famous dog trainer, not by a long stretch. 

Just a shrewd businessman who makes a lot of training DVDs with well known good dog trainers. His own ramblings have shown an acceptance over the years of things like marker training. He seems to have lost a LOT of folks on his forum, though - it used to be a very busy place with a lot of working dog people, but a lot of people left because if he did not agree with you, you were kicked off and it seems to be more "pet people" now.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Not fence fighting: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/development-socialization/197306-my-dog-doesnt-fight-back.html


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you really want to compare training styles, train and then compete. When you compete you'll generally go to other kennel clubs and see people that train at that club. You'll really be able to assess how well their training philosophy is working.

I was just at a show. Met a lady that taught at one of the better training facilities in my area but they are strictly positive reinforcement...and I mean only positive. You're not even allowed to say "no." Her dog did well (it wasn't a shepherd) but it wasn't even a competition as how well/fast/enthusiastic the work was done (this was a rally excellent trial). I've seen dogs trained in many different ways, I try to ask people how they trained exercise X when I see their dog doing a very good job of it. I've gotten 10 different ways of teaching different things, and I take them all and see which one works best for my dog.

Would I ever hit my dog on the head with a shovel? No! But I have no problem giving him a smack on the muzzle, or grabbing him by the scruff. Would I do it to anyone else's dog? Never! Would I recommend it to anyone? Not unless I've seen them work their dog, see their dog work, and come to a conclusion that their dog can handle that without completely shutting down.

By the way...the lady I became friends with, her dog decided to just go off and sniff everything in the ring on our last day there. At one point, she was at a halt and the dog sat down and scratched itself for a good 30 seconds. Stuff that I would never allow, and my training place makes me correct. A quick/easy pop with a prong collar to get the dog's head off the ground, or catching it before it completely starts scratching. I'm sure you can teach a dog to not sniff with other methods, but this one works best for me, where as the lady was trying to lure her dog with treats all the time and its clear she doesn't have that big of a food drive.


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## JohnD (May 1, 2012)

Wonder if he has children???
Poor kids...


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

Leerburg has tons of information on dog training. Some of the information is outdated, even Ed Frawley admitted it himself, but he left the info on his website anyway. Ed Frawley didn't use to believe in marker training until recent years so it really depends on how old the information is.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

I've read many things written by Mr. Frawley over the years. I don't like or dislike him. I just don't agree with many things he says. However, he has owed many very hard dogs and has learned how to deal with them in his own way. I could never bash the head of a living creature with a shovel, but that is just me.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

jocoyn said:


> The shovel is definitely extreme but how you deal with agression needs to take into account the SOURCE of the agression with the first thing step if this is new, a medical exam to make sure there is not a problem (thyroid being a common cause)



The shovel is not a new thing... or a food bowl, Broomstick... people used anything and everything available "back then".


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

I remember reading that, actually that story is a little hard to forget. I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain Ed Fawley didn't write that, it was a letter to him from someone asking for advice on his web site.  I think his advice to the man was that he was an idiot. I think Ed Fawley does use some severe methods when dealing with aggression.....but I am pretty sure it was not him that wrote about hitting a dog with a shovel.


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## PXDesign (Oct 17, 2011)

Interesting. Maybe this is what they mean by having a dog "spade"... 

I thought it was, well, something else.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

GSD2 said:


> I remember reading that, actually that story is a little hard to forget. I could be wrong, but I am fairly certain Ed Fawley didn't write that, it was a letter to him from someone asking for advice on his web site. I think his advice to the man was that he was an idiot. I think Ed Fawley does use some severe methods when dealing with aggression.....but I am pretty sure it was not him that wrote about hitting a dog with a shovel.


One reason I _really_ like links to articles, if one is going to quote an article 

LOL I just found the reference where the original post here came from and it's on Lou Castle's site - no wonder it sounds fishy and just...bizarre!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GregK said:


> No shovels, codmaster - *clicker and cookies*.


 
*The solution to all dog behavior problems!*


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Unless, of course, your dog is deaf and/or not hungry at the moment!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

...

BTW I found the comments on the leerburg site and it's actually someone named "Cindy [a trainer] at Leerburg" who doles out advice, not Ed saying that about the shovel.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> ...
> 
> BTW I found the comments on the leerburg site and it's actually someone named "Cindy [a trainer] at Leerburg" who doles out advice, not Ed saying that about the shovel.


Is there a link you can share? Because everything I read on his site had some pretty nasty things done to dogs. 


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

My dog is 8 months its not new aggression she has been showing. She is aggressive towards old people while on a walk(she has never seen them before) so will see what the trainer has to say about her have an appointment in an hour. I was shocked when I saw that post and many others on leesburg.com it sounds more like animal abuse than training. I think I need to search other sources of info on dog aggression. 


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

If she gets outta the car carrying as shovel don't answer the door!!!


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> The shovel is not a new thing... or a food bowl, Broomstick... people used anything and everything available "back then".


And sadly many sports people still do. I have to say though, that is probably out dated. He leans more to the side of the Michael Ellis style training now. He admits he's made mistakes along the way. And I'm not sticking up for the guy because what I know of him personally, I actually don't like. I used to be on that forum. 


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## Capone22 (Sep 16, 2012)

Cindy also trains with Michael Ellis now. 


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

julie87 said:


> Is there a link you can share? Because everything I read on his site had some pretty nasty things done to dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


I figured you'd have it...?? Where did you get the quote for your original post?


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I figured you'd have it...?? Where did you get the quote for your original post?


 
Leerburg | Aggressive Dogs Q&A

It's a little past the halfway point on the page.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

msvette2u said:


> ...
> 
> BTW I found the comments on the leerburg site and it's actually someone named "Cindy [a trainer] at Leerburg" who doles out advice, not Ed saying that about the shovel.


Cindy is Ed Frawley's wife or girlfriend - not sure if they're actually married or not.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

Ed is a well respected person in the working dog field. He like everyone I know that has ever trained a dog made mistakes along the way. Myself included.
Regardless, Ed for the most part talks about some very hard dogs. No offense but these dogs are beyond the abilities of the emotionally driven trainer. Dogs that he talks about would receive a one way ticket to the vets from the softer trainer as they would not know how to handle them, never mind train them.
Although I agree those extreme methods can be jaw dropping, keep in mind that he is talking about an extreme dog NOT your typical one that the majority of trainers today handle. 
Working Dogs, Hard Dogs, MWD, is an area that is well beyond PET training. 
Even if you may not agree/understand his methods, you should respect the fact that he has handled and trained dogs that most would not go within 25ft of on there best day.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

SFGSSD said:


> Ed is a well respected person in the working dog field. He like everyone I know that has ever trained a dog made mistakes along the way. Myself included.
> Regardless, Ed for the most part talks about some very hard dogs. No offense but these dogs are beyond the abilities of the emotionally driven trainer. Dogs that he talks about would receive a one way ticket to the vets from the softer trainer as they would not know how to handle them, never mind train them.
> Although I agree those extreme methods can be jaw dropping, keep in mind that he is talking about an extreme dog NOT your typical one that the majority of trainers today handle.
> Working Dogs, Hard Dogs, MWD, is an area that is well beyond PET training.
> ...


 
Good point! Until one has actually handled some of these VERY tough hard dogs, then one shouldn't make too many comments!

Many trainers would never want to even try with a dog who potentially might decide that he/she will direct their aggression "up the lead".

And some dogs, no matter how nice one treats them, might just decide that they really do not want to sit or heel that day at that moment.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

I'm telling ya, codmaster, clicker and cookies is the way to go! :thumbup:


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

Frawley does himself no favors by relating that story but I get the sense he got a lot of self satisfaction out of it...
If I recall he also has a section on his website advising (over and over again) euthanasia for a wide range of aggression and other "unfixable" temperament issues that people come to him for help on.

However I do agree that hard or sharp working dogs with over the top drives require a balanced form of training and tools


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GregK said:


> I'm telling ya, codmaster, clicker and cookies is the way to go! :thumbup:


 
But what about for the dogs?


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

GregK said:


> I'm telling ya, codmaster, clicker and cookies is the way to go! :thumbup:


Clicker and Cookies have their place! If someone can't acknowledge that, than the person is just as ignorant as those who can't acknowledge the necessity of a well placed correction!


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Clicker and Cookies have their place! If someone can't acknowledge that, than the person is just as ignorant as those who can't acknowledge the necessity of a well placed correction!


That is correct. I personally am so sick of the liberal extremists on this. Bottom line, EVERY method or tool has its place and is effective when matched with the right dog and or situation. The real ignorance is to push a point of view and boast that this one way is for every dog when I and a lot of other veteran professional dog trainers know better. 


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

:hug::hug:


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

SFGSSD said:


> That is correct. I personally am so sick of the liberal extremists on this. Bottom line, EVERY method or tool has its place and is effective when matched with the right dog and or situation. The real ignorance is to push a point of view and boast that this one way is for every dog when I and a lot of other veteran professional dog trainers know better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Exactly!


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

Mrs.K said:


> Exactly!


:hugs:Now can't we all just get along?


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

Whiteshepherds said:


> Leerburg | Aggressive Dogs Q&A
> 
> It's a little past the halfway point on the page.


If you look at the list of questions at the page (which are links to the questions), it's number 30. I had to Crtl+F "goody-two-shoes" to find it. LOL

Hard dog or not, I don't think it is ever appropriate to hit a dog with a shovel, unless it is a matter of self-defense or breaking up a serious dog fight (so if she'd only hit the dog once, I'd even give her the benefit of the doubt). If she'd electrified the fence or used an e-collar or some other method of physical correction, I wouldn't bat an eye. But hitting a dog with a shovel comes with real risk of seriously injuring or killing that animal, particularly hitting it on the head.

I also question the inclusion of that story in that context, especially because it wasn't even all that relevant to the question. Even if this was an extremely hard dog and she knew what she was doing enough to not injure him (if that's possible when hitting a dog with a shovel), that's not going to describe most of the people who read that site and are dealing with fence aggression in their pet dogs. 

I liked the rest of that answer, and I like her advice overall, but I'm a bit disappointed in that particular story.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I did some short research and this was a "killer dog" destined to die. So if hitting it witha shovel? worked...
I hope he hasnt hit alot of other dogs with shovels where it made them more aggressive...
I have a new pup and she wont be agressive, but I may title her in shutzund, she has it in her.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

' "killer dog" destined to die' because of fence fighting with other dogs? Hardly a reason to put a dog down.

And the problem solved in 90 seconds???? Fascinating! :crazy:


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

RowdyDogs said:


> I liked the rest of that answer, and I like her advice overall, but I'm a bit disappointed in that particular story.


In all honesty, there are a lot of things that have been done and have been proven effective in the working dog world that made my jaw drop over the years. These things that are even practiced today are not something that is usually posted publicly so JQP can read up on it.aranoid: Ed dared to post it so people that do not understand could freak out. Yeah I guess that was a bad call on his part but it does not change the truth when it comes to handling hard dogs that the emotionally driven trainer would not go near in there dizziest day dreams.:crazy:
When I was a kid and learning the ropes I was always told that when it comes to training a hard dog your effectiveness is limited by your emotions, till you truly understand the consequences of those limitations you will not be ready to handle a hard dog effectively and safely in a training capacity. This was one of the many things I did not understand till I witnessed the good, the bad and the ugly first hand. The politically correct way of putting this is: you are preventing a liability if you succeed and you are giving this dog a chance at a productive happy life. If you fail, the dog was headed to the Vet to be put down before you even got to the dog, so you can leave knowing you truly did everything you could for the dog, the owners and for the general public.
When you can truly understand it is this or else, your emotions tend to shift as you understand that you are truly giving this dog one last chance. I don’t know about you but if I was a dog, I would choose something extreme over death any day of the week.
For the person that said he (Ed) recommended euthanasia to a lot of people. Did it occur to you that unless you are a professional in this field (in some cases even if you are) attempting these things may get you hurt if you don’t know what you are doing? Giving direct professional training advice that potentially can harm the inexperienced handler/trainer is a huge liability. Yeah I would say call a professional to deal with it hands on or put the dog down too.:teary:


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

GregK said:


> ' "killer dog" destined to die' because of fence fighting with other dogs? Hardly a reason to put a dog down.
> 
> And the problem solved in 90 seconds???? Fascinating! :crazy:


Please don't take that out of context. He said "I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life"
That coming from Ed means that dog was WAY WAY WAY more than just a fence fighter.:shocked: Maybe you could show up with a clicker and a bag of hot dogs and try your luck with the dog:laugh:
That alone solved the problem? Doubt it, but it sent a clear message approaching THAT Dogs threshold.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

SFGSSD said:


> In all honesty, there are a lot of things that have been done and have been proven effective in the working dog world that made my jaw drop over the years. These things that are even practiced today are not something that is usually posted publicly so JQP can read up on it.aranoid: Ed dared to post it so people that do not understand could freak out. Yeah I guess that was a bad call on his part but it does not change the truth when it comes to handling hard dogs that the emotionally driven trainer would not go near in there dizziest day dreams.:crazy:
> When I was a kid and learning the ropes I was always told that when it comes to training a hard dog your effectiveness is limited by your emotions, till you truly understand the consequences of those limitations you will not be ready to handle a hard dog effectively and safely in a training capacity. This was one of the many things I did not understand till I witnessed the good, the bad and the ugly first hand. The politically correct way of putting this is: you are preventing a liability if you succeed and you are giving this dog a chance at a productive happy life. If you fail, the dog was headed to the Vet to be put down before you even got to the dog, so you can leave knowing you truly did everything you could for the dog, the owners and for the general public.
> When you can truly understand it is this or else, your emotions tend to shift as you understand that you are truly giving this dog one last chance. I don’t know about you but if I was a dog, I would choose something extreme over death any day of the week.
> For the person that said he (Ed) recommended euthanasia to a lot of people. Did it occur to you that unless you are a professional in this field (in some cases even if you are) attempting these things may get you hurt if you don’t know what you are doing? Giving direct professional training advice that potentially can harm the inexperienced handler/trainer is a huge liability. Yeah I would say call a professional to deal with it hands on or put the dog down too.:teary:


I never thought of it this way. That its either extreme training to try and fix the dog or put the dog down because of major liability. If I had to chose of course I would rather get beaten and live than die. Although i would never have the guts to hurt my dog... but you made a really good point!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

You really have to have a point of reference to adequately discuss these type of dogs.....period!


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

julie87 said:


> I never thought of it this way. That its either extreme training to try and fix the dog or put the dog down because of major liability. If I had to chose of course I would rather get beaten and live than die. Although i would never have the guts to hurt my dog... but you made a really good point!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I've seen it how handlers dealt with hard dogs. It is not a fun thing to see because I've also seen dogs getting broken over it. It is why the public has such a bad view on Schutzhund. Because of dogs and methods like that. It is still stuck in peoples mind today, even though a lot has changed. 

If anyone is proud of having a dog and using these methods to "win" over the dog... I don't know... there is a reason why the public shouldn't know about these kind of things and media campaigns like the ones we have in Germany, to ban Schutzhund, is one of them. 

It warps the view of the public about Schutzhund handlers and it does more damage than it does any good. Why do you think the e-collar was banned in Germany? Because of it's misuse to break those hard dogs.


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## julie87 (Aug 19, 2012)

Well u can misuse anything...I think it's more important educating people vs banning training methods I think if someone wants to train their dog using negative reinforcement there are far worse things to use than a shock collar, but thats another topic that's controversial and I'd rather not discuss it  


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh, I hear you. Let's not wake that demon because it'll only going to be locked again 

And yeah, I do agree with you. The issue is that most people are so set in their ways and views and even radicalized that education is merely impossible. At least with the kind of radicals that view a pop on the leash as compulsion already.


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## StephenV (Jan 16, 2006)

SFGSSD said:


> For the person that said he (Ed) recommended euthanasia to a lot of people. Did it occur to you that unless you are a professional in this field (in some cases even if you are) attempting these things may get you hurt if you don’t know what you are doing? Giving direct professional training advice that potentially can harm the inexperienced handler/trainer is a huge liability. Yeah I would say call a professional to deal with it hands on or put the dog down too.:teary:


That was me. Let me be more specific with my complaint: He offers direct professional advice based on an email (without ever having seen the poster or their dog) that they should kill their dog. Several times.

Specific example: In his Q&A section on Aggressive Dogs, He begins his advice to someone with "You have described enough for me to recommend that you put this dog to sleep." The dog in question was an 11 month old GSD that chased a running child and tried to nip him in the backside.


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

I sure hope people don't take him seriously!!!!


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

SFGSSD said:


> Please don't take that out of context. He said "I have owned some nasty dogs in my life. I own a male right now that is as bad as anything I have ever seen - probably worse than anything most people will ever see in their life"


I didn't. I was quoting volcano's post. 


SFGSSD said:


> Maybe you could show up with a clicker and a bag of hot dogs and try your luck with the dog


Not a problem. I'd have some other training tools with me as well. Shovels stay at home.


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## RowdyDogs (Nov 12, 2012)

SFGSSD said:


> In all honesty, there are a lot of things that have been done and have been proven effective in the working dog world that made my jaw drop over the years. These things that are even practiced today are not something that is usually posted publicly so JQP can read up on it.aranoid: Ed dared to post it so people that do not understand could freak out. Yeah I guess that was a bad call on his part but it does not change the truth when it comes to handling hard dogs that the emotionally driven trainer would not go near in there dizziest day dreams.:crazy:
> When I was a kid and learning the ropes I was always told that when it comes to training a hard dog your effectiveness is limited by your emotions, till you truly understand the consequences of those limitations you will not be ready to handle a hard dog effectively and safely in a training capacity. This was one of the many things I did not understand till I witnessed the good, the bad and the ugly first hand. The politically correct way of putting this is: you are preventing a liability if you succeed and you are giving this dog a chance at a productive happy life. If you fail, the dog was headed to the Vet to be put down before you even got to the dog, so you can leave knowing you truly did everything you could for the dog, the owners and for the general public.
> When you can truly understand it is this or else, your emotions tend to shift as you understand that you are truly giving this dog one last chance. I don’t know about you but if I was a dog, I would choose something extreme over death any day of the week.


I can understand that. I've seen it myself (not with my dogs, admittedly), and as a professional horse trainer who has dealt with a lot of "lost causes," I've done some extreme things that I would never, ever use on 99% of horses in the world, or recommend to people, and that would probably have upset anyone watching. As I thought about it a bit more last night, I realized that my last post was a little hypocritical when I considered that. 

I'll also admit that I sort of skimmed over the "nastiest dog I've owned in my life" part. :blush: I wanted to read the answer in context before replying and had read so much trying to find it before it occurred to me to Ctrl+F, my eyes were crossing a bit.  Also, just to be clear, I was using female pronouns in my last post as I thought it was Cindy writing, and I'm still not sure who it was, but it doesn't really matter to me so I'll attribute it to Ed in this post.

I'm not against last-ditch extreme measures to prevent a dangerous behavior--better an extreme correction than euthanasia, as you said--so while I'm still a little skeptical that a shovel was really the best option, I also wasn't there and after more thought will acknowledge that I could be wrong.* I'm also not at all wanting to imply that I doubt Ed's knowledge or credentials with working dogs. I really do respect his opinions and experience, and read his site pretty regularly. I don't agree with everything he says (but I can't really name a trainer I do 100% agree with!), but I have learned a lot from his stuff.

However, I really still think that it was an inappropriate answer to that question. I think for the vast, vast majority of dogs (and especially the ones whose owners are going to be taking advice from that site--most experienced working dog handlers I know don't need advice on how to handle fence fighting), there are far safer and kinder methods to fix that problem. Maybe I have a low opinion of people, but I've known so many people who see an experienced trainer use a controversial method in an extreme case, and then they point to that and say, "See? I can do that too!" then wind up abusing their animals.

I feel that trainers (myself included, as someone who has published articles on dealing with potentially dangerous behavioral problems in horses) have an ethical obligation to consider their audience, and how their advice is likely to be misused. Yeah, any advice can and probably will be misused--from clicker training being used to excuse ineffective training and terrible behavior ("Sorry Fluffy bit you, I'm trying to only use positive training methods so I can't tell him not to!" is one I have literally heard) to e-collars being used to shock dogs who honestly don't understand what they're being asked and turning them into fearful basket cases. But I think that's why telling a story about hitting a dog with a shovel should be reserved for more specific audiences who are likely to understand the circumstances.

As I thought about it more, I realized that a huge part of my problem with that particular story is less the specifics of the story (especially rereading his description of the dog in general), but more how and where it was told. I came away from that answer, even on subsequent rereadings, feeling like that story was told as a good example of how to handle fence fighting in general, not how to handle it with an extremely difficult dog. If he'd even thrown in some examples of how to handle it more gently (for lack of a better word) with less extreme dogs, or cautioned about the dangers of hitting a dog with a shovel, or anything, I'd probably have less of a problem with it. 

So long story short (too late LOL), I still find that anecdote in that context very distasteful, and I think it was a very bad call for him to post that. However, I also think most people have written something they later regret (and even if the shovel thing wasn't necessary, I'm sure we've all done stupid things with our animals that we later regret...I for one used to make a lot of rough mistakes with horses because I didn't know any better), and I'm not going to change my overall opinion of him or his training because of it.

*specifically, I was thinking about this last night and remembered a really aggressive stallion I used to train, and some unconventional and somewhat risky methods I used to get him to stop attacking me (he'd already put 3 people in the hospital since he'd been owned by my client, and would attack randomly and without provocation--and he was trying to hurt you, not just posturing), so this was truly a life-or-death situation). I don't want to detail what I did for the reasons I describe above, but it wasn't something I'd ever use on a different horse, and was a last-ditch effort after I'd tried more conventional methods and was still being attacked. So I guess it's even a bit hypocritical of me to say that something _never_ has a place in training, as I'd normally say that the methods I used never should be used. Well, except anger...I'm good saying that anger never has a place in training animals. 

edit: by the way, I just wanted to add that I'm really enjoying the civil discussion in this topic. When I first read the OP I was expecting a trainwreck, but the thoughtful posts here have really given me stuff to think about...which is why I post on this board in the first place.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

StephenV said:


> That was me. Let me be more specific with my complaint: He offers direct professional advice based on an email (without ever having seen the poster or their dog) that they should kill their dog. Several times.
> 
> Specific example: In his Q&A section on Aggressive Dogs, He begins his advice to someone with "You have described enough for me to recommend that you put this dog to sleep." The dog in question was an 11 month old GSD that chased a running child and tried to nip him in the backside.


 I am one to give a chance to a dog more so than the average trainer. I do not like going to extreems to get the job done but sometimes the DOG gives us two options and you are at a crossroad. From the experience level of the handler a lot of the time you only have ONE option unfortunately. 
I agree that I would not have jumped the gun on that one and refered it out before presenting that option. But this is from what you said... I did not see the whole post to reference.


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## SFGSSD (Dec 28, 2012)

RowdyDogs said:


> I can understand that.
> I'll also admit that I sort of skimmed over the "nastiest dog I've owned in my life" part. :blush: I wanted to read the answer in context before replying and had read so much trying to find it before it occurred to me to Ctrl+F, my eyes were crossing a bit.  Also, just to be clear, I was using female pronouns in my last post as I thought it was Cindy writing, and I'm still not sure who it was, but it doesn't really matter to me so I'll attribute it to Ed in this post.
> 
> I'm not against last-ditch extreme measures to prevent a dangerous behavior--better an extreme correction than euthanasia, as you said--so while I'm still a little skeptical that a shovel was really the best option, I also wasn't there and after more thought will acknowledge that I could be wrong.* I'm also not at all wanting to imply that I doubt Ed's knowledge or credentials with working dogs. I really do respect his opinions and experience, and read his site pretty regularly. I don't agree with everything he says (but I can't really name a trainer I do 100% agree with!), but I have learned a lot from his stuff.
> ...


I have been told by other trainers that I am guilty of what is called "Lumping" when it comes to me teaching others and talking to others. I take a lot of things for granted that are just a given to me that I forget that not everyone knows exactly what I am talking about some times or doing at that moment most of the time. Teaching timing in all circumstances is a huge one that is a challenge for me. 
Along the same lines maybe Ed forgot who his audience was for a moment :laugh:
I am also enjoying this. Trolls are so annoying and really can get ugly fast. I don’t mind anyone pointing out things relevant as long as they are not just purposely looking to get a rise out of anybody.


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## Sarmatian (May 9, 2013)

I sure didn't want to make this my first post - but I have nothing but contempt for this Ed Frawley at Leerburg and I would advise everyone to stay away from him and his demented perspective for dogs. One of the most offensive things I read was that he pepper sprays "stray dogs" and if their owners look at him like a 'deer in headlights' he extorts them into police complaint. 

I would like to point out that "stray dogs' don't have OWNERS. My dog is never off the leash outside, but if you pepper spray my dog it would be the biggest mistake of your life. 

I am not one bit surprised to hear him advocating violence with a shovel toward an animal - this man should be outlawed from owning animals.


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## Sagan (Apr 27, 2013)

Sarmatian said:


> I sure didn't want to make this my first post - but I have nothing but contempt for this Ed Frawley at Leerburg and I would advise everyone to stay away from him and his demented perspective for dogs. One of the most offensive things I read was that he pepper sprays "stray dogs" and if their owners look at him like a 'deer in headlights' he extorts them into police complaint.


I understand that perspective and how pepper spray could be taken as a violent method to subdue a dog but consider the worst case scenario. You have hundreds of hours in training your working dog that not only provides you companionship and is you a part of your family but is also an asset of yours and how you earn income (working the dog in either a k9 dept. or similar) to provide for the rest of your family. Your out on a hike and come across what appears to be a really dog aggressive stray (or illegally off leash pet). How of you control the aggressive stray and protect not your family member but your dog with tens of thousands of dollars? Because of your love for him, and the value, you can't afford any thing to happen, especially if there's any chance to prevent it. 

The way I see it is that this recommendation to carry pepper spray is to both protect your loving family member and also to protect the investment (time/money) you have in your working dog from unknown aggressive dogs. Personally I would have no qualms pepper spraying an aggressive dog that posed a risk of attacking that approach me and my pup if we were out on a trail.

As far as calling the police if there is any kind of confrontation that is the first thing that ou want to do if you are justified and the aggressive dog is illegally off leash. Not only are you well within your right but it always helps to be the person of contact when the police arrive.


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## BearYap (Dec 7, 2006)

Martemchick, I totally agree with you. My last female gsd was naturally sweet and obedient and could easily be trained with almost all positive reinforcement. My recent male gsd was a stubborn, defiant, bully at 8 weeks. He was naturally difficult and pure positive reinforcement would not work on him. It really depends on the dog, but there definitely should be a balance of discipline and reinforcement.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Vyteinsen1066 (Feb 9, 2014)

Some folks need to read more carefully. He used a "kennel shovel" not a garden spade.

I have never given that level of correction and have never needed to do so. That said, it doesn't mean that it might NEVER be necessary. It might be. The most extreme punishment I have ever given is a scruff shake. And, only with hard working line dogs. But, a kennel shovel is not a typical digging shovel. It is a shovel for scooping poop! My guess is something like this: Amazon.com: Companion Gear Super Scooper: Pet Supplies

Or this: Amazon.com: Flexrake Poop Pet Scoop with 3-Feet Aluminum Handle, Large, Blue: Pet Supplies

Would it have been okay if he had whacked the dog with a clatter stick? My take is that if he did this out of calm decision making, and not anger and emotion, it may have been totally appropriate.

Finally, this isn't a "liberal" or "conservative" issue and it is silly to label it that way. I don't come here to discuss politics and while my training style is 99% positive reinforcement and 1% positive punishment I doubt that my position on Social Security has anything to do with that!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sagan said:


> I understand that perspective and how pepper spray could be taken as a violent method to subdue a dog but consider the worst case scenario. You have hundreds of hours in training your working dog that not only provides you companionship and is you a part of your family but is also an asset of yours and how you earn income (working the dog in either a k9 dept. or similar) to provide for the rest of your family. Your out on a hike and come across what appears to be a really dog aggressive stray (or illegally off leash pet). How of you control the aggressive stray and protect not your family member but your dog with tens of thousands of dollars? Because of your love for him, and the value, you can't afford any thing to happen, especially if there's any chance to prevent it.
> 
> The way I see it is that this recommendation to carry pepper spray is to both protect your loving family member and also to protect the investment (time/money) you have in your working dog from unknown aggressive dogs. Personally I would have no qualms pepper spraying an aggressive dog that posed a risk of attacking that approach me and my pup if we were out on a trail.
> 
> As far as calling the police if there is any kind of confrontation that is the first thing that ou want to do if you are justified and the aggressive dog is illegally off leash. Not only are you well within your right but it always helps to be the person of contact when the police arrive.


Well said! I have nothing to add.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

msvette2u said:


> One reason I _really_ like links to articles, if one is going to quote an article
> 
> LOL I just found the reference where the original post here came from and it's on Lou Castle's site - no wonder it sounds fishy and just...bizarre!!!


The ank you his site also recommends a Dominant dog collar a drag leash and how to use them. And also shock collars and how to use them. 

A freaking SHOVEL TO THE HEAD???? 

Come on it is the internet, that does not mean "disengage brain and do this!!"


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

StephenV said:


> Frawley does himself no favors by relating that story but I get the sense he got a lot of self satisfaction out of it...
> If I recall he also has a section on his website advising (over and over again) euthanasia for a wide range of aggression and other "unfixable" temperament issues that people come to him for help on.
> 
> However I do agree that hard or sharp working dogs with over the top drives require a balanced form of training and tools


He's certainly not a fan of Chows!


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