# Don Sullivan method



## Nurse Bishop

Don Sullivan's method- when we started training, and my man and I were total novices- except for training horses,- so we got his CDs and the plastic mild prong. Inga was three months old then I think. It worked great for basic obedience and we did not become treat dispensers. He advises to have the dog work for praise and play. At about five months she started to make a little snarly face when asked to do a command and it was always when being asked to assume submissive positions, such as a down. This looked a little bit like the beginning of handler aggression to me. She is a German and Chek bloodline and has a hundred and sixty four schutzhunds in her lineage. They are mostly showlines but European sch had to be titled for biting people, and most importantly, stop biting people, in order to breed. Or maybe it was just a phase. Also she was the dominant pup in the litter, she shrugs off correction easily and is apparently rather hard. Anyway, discussing this directly Mr Sullivan he advised to use a cloth muzzle when working the down and go to the metal prong. This stopped her pulling But still, you had to have your hand near her face to correct the down when the muzzle is off. Calving season was about to begin. So I got the ecollar. Sure I was nervous about using it, I know you can ruin a dog with it if used incorrectly. I have no trainers out here to advise, I am the trainer. So studying its use by the maker of sportdog , it does not teach anything, it reinforces what they already know. But it did extinguish the snarly face and also barking at other dogs from the back of the truck immediately at a very low setting. I don't think she connects the correction with us. She does suddenly become very obedient as soon as it is put on and may be collar wise. I like that I can tone or vibrate to signal her at five hundred yards away. This is great for distance work. It can be also be used like a clicker to tell the dog that exact moment they did the desired behavior. I also like that I can give a size seven correction in case she takes off after a calf or a deer, which can get a dog run over by a car or shot dead. The collar can save their life. Anyway, now at her first birthday she knows thirty commands. I understand this is no big deal but I myself am very happy with her.
> up, enough barking, sit, down, stay, load up, off load, wait, jump, get it, bring it, kennel, off, out, NO, come, heel, get him, lets go, relax, stand, no bite, WHAT IS IT?- very important- check out possible threat out in the dark-, eat eat in German, find it, leave it, drag, crawl- such as under a row of chairs, and cross- such as a ten foot two by six across two platforms - and now another circus trick, jump through a hoop and into a tank of water. Also she knows the distant hand signals sit and down and stay an eighth of a mile away. Now she is learning to heel to a ridden horse at walk, trot and gallop. 

What is an amazing breed are these GSDs. I have never known a dog like this. The breed to so responsive to training. I have had many dogs but she is my first real dog German Shepherd. Thanks for reading.


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## WateryTart

Nurse Bishop said:


> Don Sullivan's method- when we started training, and my man and I were total novices- except for training horses,- so we got his CDs and the plastic mild prong. Inga was three months old then I think. It worked great for basic obedience and we did not become treat dispensers. He advises to have the dog work for praise and play. At about five months she started to make a little snarly face when asked to do a command and it was always when being asked to assume submissive positions, such as a down. This looked a little bit like the beginning of handler aggression to me. She is a German and Chek bloodline and has a hundred and sixty four schutzhunds in her lineage. They are mostly showlines but European sch had to be titled for biting people, and most importantly, stop biting people, in order to breed. Or maybe it was just a phase. Also she was the dominant pup in the litter, she shrugs off correction easily and is apparently rather hard. Anyway, discussing this directly Mr Sullivan he advised to use a cloth muzzle when working the down and go to the metal prong. This stopped her pulling But still, you had to have your hand near her face to correct the down when the muzzle is off. Calving season was about to begin. So I got the ecollar. Sure I was nervous about using it, I know you can ruin a dog with it if used incorrectly. I have no trainers out here to advise, I am the trainer. So studying its use by the maker of sportdog , it does not teach anything, it reinforces what they already know. But it did extinguish the snarly face and also barking at other dogs from the back of the truck immediately at a very low setting. I don't think she connects the correction with us. She does suddenly become very obedient as soon as it is put on and may be collar wise. I like that I can tone or vibrate to signal her at five hundred yards away. This is great for distance work. It can be also be used like a clicker to tell the dog that exact moment they did the desired behavior. I also like that I can give a size seven correction in case she takes off after a calf or a deer, which can get a dog run over by a car or shot dead. The collar can save their life. Anyway, now at her first birthday she knows thirty commands. I understand this is no big deal but I myself am very happy with her.
> > up, enough barking, sit, down, stay, load up, off load, wait, jump, get it, bring it, kennel, off, out, NO, come, heel, get him, lets go, relax, stand, no bite, WHAT IS IT?- very important- check out possible threat out in the dark-, eat eat in German, find it, leave it, drag, crawl- such as under a row of chairs, and cross- such as a ten foot two by six across two platforms - and now another circus trick, jump through a hoop and into a tank of water. Also she knows the distant hand signals sit and down and stay an eighth of a mile away. Now she is learning to heel to a ridden horse at walk, trot and gallop.
> 
> What is an amazing breed are these GSDs. I have never known a dog like this. The breed to so responsive to training. I have had many dogs but she is my first real dog German Shepherd. Thanks for reading.


One hundred and sixty-four now? Wow. That's up from last time - people who have her relatives must be pretty serious about titling the dogs.

And she's a show line? I thought you said she was a WL. Either way, that's pretty impressive she knows thirty commands. I haven't counted what mine knows. She knows the basics, and I just talk to her a lot and she adds to her vocabulary that way.


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## Nurse Bishop

I said mostly WGSL line. The checs were WL. Oh yea its only a hundred and fifty four Schutzhunds. Inga spilled water into my keyboard and now I have to type out numbers. What commands does your dog know? How did you train ? Does s/he know circus tricks?


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## WateryTart

Nurse Bishop said:


> I said mostly WGSL line. The checs were WL. Oh yea its only a hundred and fifty four Schutzhunds. What commands does your dog know? How did you train ? Does s/he know circus tricks?


Oh, that would make sense. The Czechoslovakian lines would be working.

My dog knows the basics and then some things that I find useful in daily life. Circuses are a dying industry, so I have not placed priority on circus tricks.


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## GypsyGhost

@Nurse Bishop I'm going to ask nicely again if I could please see your dog's pedigree. I know you thought I was being rude before, but I even checked with the mods and I was not rude. I have a genuine curiosity about the lineage your dog comes from. I am largely unfamiliar with WGSL dogs and their pedigrees, and your girl sounds amazing, so I would love to learn more about the dogs she descends from. I hope you don't have something against someone trying to learn things.


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## Nurse Bishop

But it is such fun.:grin2:

How do flolks teach their GSD to balance dogfood on their nose and then snatch it out of the air when told?
How do folks teach the Snake command?. Someone yells snake and the dog leaps into your arms. You have to be physically fit.


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## sebrench

She sounds like a great dog. I'm glad you're having such a good experience with her. GSDs sure are smart. I've never used an e-collar, but I would get one for Asher, if I had to have him off leash around livestock. He is MUCH too interested in the horses in our back pasture (they belong to our neighbor). He never has direct contact with them.


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## WateryTart

GypsyGhost said:


> @Nurse Bishop I'm going to ask nicely again if I could please see your dog's pedigree. I know you thought I was being rude before, but I even checked with the mods and I was not rude. I have a genuine curiosity about the lineage your dog comes from. I am largely unfamiliar with WGSL dogs and their pedigrees, and your girl sounds amazing, so I would love to learn more about the dogs she descends from. I hope you don't have something against someone trying to learn things.


I'd be interested in seeing her pedigree too, if you felt comfortable sharing, because I haven't been around very many dogs who are WL/SL crosses, and because I haven't seen much for Czech lines. I know one dog who is a WL/SL cross but I'm mostly around American show line dogs, so I just don't get exposure to German show/working line crosses.


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## dogma13

What does Inga do to relax?Watch tv,do crafts,etc?


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## Deb

I am feeling very blessed. Enya knows the same commands plus a few more at seven months old. We had horses across the road, but she learned to ignore them. She's been completely trained on a flat collar mostly off lead. She's a WLGSD whose mother was bred in Czech before being imported.


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## SuperG

Nurse Bishop said:


> How do folks teach the Snake command?. Someone yells snake and the dog leaps into your arms. You have to be physically fit.


Or better yet......you yell snake....you jump into the air...and your dog catches you....now that would be a circus trick and a half.

Hey...what did you expect? GSD's are crazy smart dogs.....I'm glad you are enjoying your dog's intelligence .....it's a huge selling point for the breed and probably why there are so many devoted GSD owners who never contemplate getting a different breed once they have had one. 

I guess I have never paid enough attention to pedigrees to see many eastern European WL and WGSL in the same pedigree......obviously they exist...so...yeah....it would be interesting to see your dog's pedigree.

Keep enjoying your dog's smarts.....they're impressive.


SuperG


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## Breaker's mom

WateryTart said:


> She knows the basics, and I just talk to her a lot and she adds to her vocabulary that way.


lol This is soooo true! Bet most of our dogs know more then we think they do.


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## WateryTart

Breaker's mom said:


> lol This is soooo true! Bet most of our dogs know more then we think they do.


I'd do better to list the words we don't say in the house unless we want mayhem.

Dog park
Liquor store
Daycare
Chuck and Don's
Walk
Car ride
Go/go somewhere fun
Cheese


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## Galathiel

WateryTart said:


> I'd do better to list the words we don't say in the house unless we want mayhem.
> 
> Dog park
> Liquor store
> Daycare
> Chuck and Don's
> Walk
> Car ride
> Go/go somewhere fun
> Cheese


 
So true ... or spell them. That doesn't work, either.


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## WateryTart

Galathiel said:


> So true ... or spell them. That doesn't work, either.


We use "W" for walks, but we have to kind of jumble the context so she doesn't figure it out. Daycare is "DC." Somehow she hasn't deciphered that one. I've taken to referring to the dog park as "the off leash recreational area for canines." The liquor store just gets referred to by its actual name and she has yet to make that connection.

The rest we are less careful about because the excitement level is more manageable, although if you ask her if she would like to go to Chuck and Don's she will full on march to the door and wait for you there.

But good lord, if you want to see my dog lose her mind, ask her if she'd like to go to the dog park, or the liquor store. We cannot drive past the liquor store without her deciding we must be going there and we will go to there and get treats please and thank you?


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## SuperG

My current dog knows the similar repeated series of mouse clicks when I close the computer down....which usually means I'm getting up and going to do something with her...I think this is what they mean by clicker training....

SuperG


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## Castlemaid

I used to think that being a treat dispenser was 'bribing' your dog. When Compulsion didn't get me anywhere with an adopted dog, and only bred conflict, I gave up and went off to food/play reward dog training classes. 

Oh boy! Did it open my eyes!!! I learned how dogs learn, and that training is supposed to be fun for both person and dog! I had a completely different dog by the end of that first class. 

I shudder at the thought of putting a prong on a puppy, and making training so compulsive that your pup is now growling at you, and has to be muzzled. When done correctly, in a way that builds your relationship with the puppy as opposed to destroying it, pup should some running all excited and offer Obedience exercises without being asked, because they LOVE it! 

I think Inga is a fine dog that she is still so trusting and willing to work with you after such a rocky start. But a year old, and already has gone through plastic and metal prong, and then e-collar? Oh boy!

We hear so much about how smart Inga is, I thought I'd look up her pedigree on the pedigree database (and she does sound very smart! I bet training her without all those gadgety collars would have been a breeze, and not brought out the fear and anger that got her growling at you). 

I saw in your profile that her full registered name is Frauline "Inga" von Deutschland. 
Is that her registered name? Is she registered at all? Because her name just translated to 
"Miss Inga from Germany".


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## cdwoodcox

I couldn't imagine training without using treats. I use treats to learn new behaviors and then we go to toys and praise to work and solidify behaviors. Seems a waste to not use every option available to train dogs. Play and bonding with your dog will ensure that the dog is working for you and not objects or food a lot better than withholding or not using all training options.


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## Nurse Bishop

Admitantly, there are many ways to skin a cat, and there are many ways to train a dog. This is what I tried and it worked. This is the most amassing dog I have ever had in my life. I just got back from a ride on a thousand acres. She heeled to my knee. Deer jumped up but she did not critter. Good girl.


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## MineAreWorkingline

WateryTart said:


> One hundred and sixty-four now? Wow. That's up from last time - people who have her relatives must be pretty serious about titling the dogs.
> 
> And she's a show line? I thought you said she was a WL. Either way, that's pretty impressive she knows thirty commands. I haven't counted what mine knows. She knows the basics, and I just talk to her a lot and she adds to her vocabulary that way.


If it makes sense, Czech lines can also be show lines, being nothing but show lines bred in Czech by Czech breeders. I have seen the red and black Czech show lines.


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## Nurse Bishop

So what? A good dog is a good dog . Inga is biddable, strong nerves and health and not only that, she is beautiful. A triclored saddleback, she is easily recognized by the common criminal as a GSD. 

This is the training forum. Now what about those folks who have also taught circus tricks.What do they do and how did they do it?


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## Nurse Bishop

dogma13 said:


> What does Inga do to relax?Watch tv,do crafts,etc?


She gets less excited. Its OK, Relax.


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## Nurse Bishop

Deb said:


> I am feeling very blessed. Enya knows the same commands plus a few more at seven months old. We had horses across the road, but she learned to ignore them. She's been completely trained on a flat collar mostly off lead. She's a WLGSD whose mother was bred in Czech before being imported.


:grin2:


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## Jax08

how many dogs in a pedigree does it take to get to 154?

1st Gen -2, 
2nd Gen - 4, 
3rd Gen - 8, 
4th Gen - 16, 
5th Gen - 32, 
6th Gen - 64, 
7th Gen - 128, 
8th Gen - 256

Mannnn...my dog can't balance a treat on his nose. He can pee on his legs though. That's pretty cool.


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## Nurse Bishop

Castlemaid said:


> I used to think that being a treat dispenser was 'bribing' your dog. When Compulsion didn't get me anywhere with an adopted dog, and only bred conflict, I gave up and went off to food/play reward dog training classes.
> 
> Oh boy! Did it open my eyes!!! I learned how dogs learn, and that training is supposed to be fun for both person and dog! I had a completely different dog by the end of that first class.
> 
> I shudder at the thought of putting a prong on a puppy, and making training so compulsive that your pup is now growling at you, and has to be muzzled. When done correctly, in a way that builds your relationship with the puppy as opposed to destroying it, pup should some running all excited and offer Obedience exercises without being asked, because they LOVE it!
> 
> I think Inga is a fine dog that she is still so trusting and willing to work with you after such a rocky start. But a year old, and already has gone through plastic and metal prong, and then e-collar? Oh boy!
> 
> We hear so much about how smart Inga is, I thought I'd look up her pedigree on the pedigree database (and she does sound very smart! I bet training her without all those gadgety collars would have been a breeze, and not brought out the fear and anger that got her growling at you).
> 
> I saw in your profile that her full registered name is Frauline "Inga" von Deutschland.
> Is that her registered name? Is she registered at all? Because her name just translated to
> "Miss Inga from Germany".


As I have said, there are many ways to successfully train a GSD. Don Sullivan is the way I used. She never growled at us when asked to down. She made a brief snarly face, then complied. Whether this was her breeding, her dominance in puppy litter or an early adolescent phase I do not know. But the behavior extinguished. Yes of course she is registered but it is not a breeding registry. I do not want puppys. She will be spayed after her second heat.


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## SuperG

Nurse Bishop said:


> Yes of course she is registered but it is not a breeding registry.


I didn't even know there were separate registries........a pedigree is a pedigree I thought......oh well.....shows ya what I know.

SuperG


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## Nurse Bishop

I did use food trying to teach her not to eat food that might be poisoned. This was not successful. Maybe I did not do it right. No one is going to poison her anyway, we live out in the middle of now where.


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## SuperG

Nurse Bishop said:


> I did use food trying to teach her not to eat food that might be poisoned. This was not successful.


What was the reward for not eating the food you were testing her with ?

SuperG


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## Nurse Bishop

SuperG said:


> I didn't even know there were separate registries........a pedigree is a pedigree I thought......oh well.....shows ya what I know.
> 
> SuperG


 She is registered AKC. I don't know if she is in pedigree database or not. I never sent them any picture. I did not pay the extra two hundred dollars for breeding registry.


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## Nurse Bishop

SuperG said:


> What was the reward for not eating the food you were testing her with ?
> 
> SuperG



please tell how to teach this. Obviously I did not do it right.


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## cloudpump

SuperG said:


> What was the reward for not eating the food you were testing her with ?
> 
> SuperG


No corrections. Don Sullivan apparently uses a modified kmodt according to the internet.


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## MineAreWorkingline

cloudpump said:


> No corrections. Don Sullivan apparently uses a modified kmodt according to the internet.


Very very modified KMODT, almost to the point of no similarities from what is being said here.


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## Nurse Bishop

Heres how they said on Leerburg how to teach the SNAKE trick. You sit on a bench and call the dog come or up to get on your lap, then also immediately yell snake. Then you squat down while standing and call them with the come and snake command. Gradually, you do this in the standing position. I would love to teach thisnow that I am fit enough for seventy lb GSD. Actually, she is pretty snake proofed. Last year I would catch rat snakes in the henhouse, they eat eggs and are very aggressive. SO I would drop one in front of Inga and she would sniff them and get bitten on the nose. She quickly learned to avoid them. Soon it will be hot enough to catch more snakes and see if she is still proofed. There are rattlesnakes here, also Copperhead, Water Moccasins and Coral snakes.


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## cloudpump

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Very very modified KMODT, almost to the point of no similarities from what is being said here.


Darn internet. Always lying to me.


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## Kazel

The only trick I trained my dog with using treats was to balance treats on her nose. Everything else was showing her how. Gently showing how to and then praising when they do it. I admit I tried to teach her how to rollover with treats but it didn't work. Doesn't help that she's not terribly food motivated. Funny enough my other dog started to rollover because he knew what I was trying to get her to do. He wasn't getting bribed with food either he was just doing it. 

Codi I taught to heel using a leash and just getting her to follow me. When she started being a but about it I got a head halter, now she heels beautifully on or offleash. At least when she's on our property. I need to work with her out in public more. She's knows a decent amount of commands(I doubt anybody wants me to list it and it's not impressive enough to do so) and could probably learn more but I haven't worked with her enough.


What exactly is the Don Sullivan method? Maybe I should look it up. I've never actually looked up set training methods, I just knew I didn't want to treat train and so I didn't bother checking out clicker training. Also what is a tricolored saddleback?


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## MineAreWorkingline

cloudpump said:


> Darn internet. Always lying to me.


Google must not be your friend. :\


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## Nurse Bishop

What is KMODT?


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## Kazel

SuperG said:


> I didn't even know there were separate registries........a pedigree is a pedigree I thought......oh well.....shows ya what I know.
> 
> SuperG


Full vs. limited registration possibly?


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## SuperG

Nurse Bishop said:


> please tell how to teach this. Obviously I did not do it right.


I've never taught any of my dogs to only eat food from my "hand" solely.......but if I did...I would pursue perhaps 2 different routes if not a combination of both. I'd treat the training like most leave it training.....as well as never rewarding with the bait...ever......otherwise it's just a wait of sorts...ultimately the dog gets what it isn't supposed to have......then ....I suppose I would make feeding a very specific event...and hold the dog to that designed consistent discipline. I also wouldn't have my scent on any of the placed baits...to help the dog further differentiate.....eventually....I would have to proof the dog unobserved in a baited area....but still be able to make instant impact if the dog broke obedience.

I'm guessing there are others in here who could give much better advice via their actual training and success......instead of my " if I did" advice.


SuperG


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## SuperG

Kazel said:


> Full vs. limited registration possibly?



Could be....all I remember was having to supply a pedigree of my dog in order to be in compliance with the AKC.....


SuperG


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## Nurse Bishop

Kazel said:


> Here's the type of paper I have for my dogs, none of them have been sent in since they are all spayed/neutered and not going to be bred either way so I don't really care.
> 
> http://images.akc.org/registration/regapp2.jpg
> 
> In the bottom left there's a box that say's limited registration, that's all I know. If your breeder didn't fill it out then technically you have breeding rights to your dog as far as AKC is concerned.


 That what I have. Inga is not to breed standard anyway. Here eyes are golden brown, not 'dark as possible'.


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## Nurse Bishop

Kazel said:


> Ok, you just mean different shades of tans, so just a normal black and tan basically. I'll check him out, sometime or another then.
> 
> With balancing the treat on the nose:
> 1: Get dog to sit (helpful if they know stay/hold still type command)
> 2: Take treat and put it on dogs nose, if they try to grab it or move their head away say no or just make a correctional noise and draw your hand back. Repeat until the dog doesn't move when you bring to treat up to it and put it on it's nose.
> 
> I started with short times of balancing and increased it. If it falls off the dog doesn't get it, it goes back on the nose so you may have to be quick.


So I see how you get it balanced on their nose. What is the release command and how do you teach that so they go ahead and catch it in the air?


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## Kazel

Nurse Bishop said:


> So I see how you get it balanced on their nose. What is the release command and how do you teach that so they go ahead and catch it in the air?


The release command is whatever you want it to be. I just tell her "Ok, you can have it."

Some dogs take awhile to learn how to catch it while it's still in the air. Codi catches it in the air sometimes, not all the time though.


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## WateryTart

Kazel said:


> Full vs. limited registration possibly?


I would doubt that's the issue. My dog is a pet and was sold on limited registration.

Her AKC name was still spelled out by her breeder when he sent the forms to me for completion: "Kennel1's _________ v. Kennel2." It's the exact same convention as her littermates who are being shown and bred.


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## WateryTart

Nurse, who were Inga's sire and dam? Or you could share the breeder and we could look up some of their dogs to see what they are like.


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## Chip18

Nurse Bishop said:


> Thanks Chip, I will look at it. My original post here was actually a pm to you, but your mailbox was full.


Yeah I got an email notice on my phone that my inbox was full ... I'm a digital pack rat ... also.


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## Nurse Bishop

I just got back from taking care of the livestock. Inga at a down as the stallions came running in several feet away. I love her. She is my best animal friend. I just now took pictures of the pedigree written out with the one hundred and fifty four Schutzhunds going back seven and eight generations. One grandmother was ASL with several national champions. I looked these things up back when Inga made the snarly face, just for a second, when asked to down at six months of age. I thought ah, that explained it. Or maybe not. I have to shrink the pictures and all that.

Another thing- about these full and limited registrations. I wondered at the time how in the world would a buyer know if a baby puppy was going to grow into something they wanted to breed ? Well, you can, for an additional fee, get it changed to full registration when the dog matures. Just thought I would pass that along.


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## Julian G

I use prongs for mostly control, you really have to get everything right from day 1 and the dog has to have near perfect temperament to never have to use compulsion.


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## Chip18

I became aware of Don Sullivan a few years ago ... long after I got "Rocky's" people issues in public resolved. It was clip with a lady and a GSD and he was discussing the proper use of a muzzle. In as much as I had used one ... I was intrigued??? Long story short ... he stated proper use of a muzzle, helps the dog and the owner relax ... sure enough ... worked out fine. 

The "Down" thing ... LOL ... I don't much remember the preliminary work?? But I do the remember the response I got once "Struddell (White Boxer)" fully understood the command. She was doing one of her nutty whatevers??? And I commanded her "Down" to put a stop to it. She looked at me startled .. sighed and blew her flews in protest but "Down" she went ... it was "priceless."


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## Thecowboysgirl

Castlemaid said:


> I have easily trained fully reliable and cooperative responses in OB, off leash, with food and tug rewards.
> 
> A little collar correction here and there is fine, but getting a snarly face response or out-right protest behaviour means too much compulsion early on.
> 
> I do believe that results alone are not the criteria that training methods need to be evaluated on: the mindset of the dog needs to be taken into account too. For example, many dogs become collar wise when correction collars are used and training is compulsive - shows that the fear of the correction is what motivates them, not respect for the trainer, or the desire to comply.
> 
> My experience is that I got super results off leash, with positive, reward-based training techniques. With Keeta, ALL I was getting was protest behaviours with collar corrections and leash control, all that went away when we switched training methods.


I think it's safe to say my girl is a good example of functional, reliable obedience that was not trained with compulsion. She was on the job as a service dog for at least 8 1/2 years. She can and has even correctly executed intelligent disobedience. She was complimented everywhere she ever worked. Her work manners and her work tasks were trained with zero compulsion. I did E Collar train her in order to proof recalls while hiking (crittering).

I'm fairly sure my boy would shut completely down if he were trained with only compulsion, maybe to the point of refusing to do anything at all, and what a shame that would be. Because he is such a biddable, smart, cooperative, creative boy. He tries so hard to do what I want him to do, to figure out what I am saying and what I want. I love that about him. I love how he watches me and offers stuff, trying to get it right.

Sometimes a dog failing to comply is because they have not been properly generalized.


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## Castlemaid

And just to be clear, I'm not against compulsion or prongs, or e-collars. I've used these tools in specific situations. I can also see that often, professional trainers get dogs that are completely un-trained, out-of control, and allowed to get away with murder, and the owners expect the dog to be "fixed". For some of these dogs, they need to know that life just got serious, and they are not in charge anymore. But for the vast majority of us, the way we interact with our dogs from the early stages is what will determine our relationship with them, will build or destroy their willingness to please, and either instill or take away a desire to learn. Guess which training method does which? 

Dogs that are not food motivated can be a bit more challenging to motivate. I found that Gryffon is only about 20% motivated for food, but 120% motivated for a ball or tug, so that has been what he will work for reliably. 

Corrections when a dog does not understand what is required of them often shuts them down, and pushes them into avoidance. We often get people posting and complaining that their dog won't listen to them, but the dog is confused, and shutting down.


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## cliffson1

I can always tell the people who know nothing about training with compulsion, because they only speak of the compulsion. Before the propagation of treats and positive only methods, folks trained dogs off leash just as effectively. And these dogs were tail wagging happy workers. 
You see along with compulsion comes at least a 3-1 portion of praise. ( you see praise is a constant element of training with compulsion where the compulsion is on intermittent basis only as needed, thus you give at least three times and more of praise than compulsion). And the degree of compulsion is usually half as strong as the strength of the praise. 
Yes Koehler used compulsion, but he was not only fair with it but his dogs were happy and reliable because the recipe of compulsion to praise was correct. 
I have trained and titled dogs with food, tugs, and balls, and also praise and compulsion only. All of my dogs were earnest and happy workers. 
I have also seen ineffective training in all these methods.....today folks primarily used food and balls and tugs and positive methods, and there's nothing wrong with that in general, but for some dogs compulsion is also very good providing the trainer knows more than is read on the internet.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Castlemaid said:


> And just to be clear, I'm not against compulsion or prongs, or e-collars. I've used these tools in specific situations. I can also see that often, professional trainers get dogs that are completely un-trained, out-of control, and allowed to get away with murder, and the owners expect the dog to be "fixed". For some of these dogs, they need to know that life just got serious, and they are not in charge anymore. But for the vast majority of us, the way we interact with our dogs from the early stages is what will determine our relationship with them, will build or destroy their willingness to please, and either instill or take away a desire to learn. Guess which training method does which?
> 
> Dogs that are not food motivated can be a bit more challenging to motivate. I found that Gryffon is only about 20% motivated for food, but 120% motivated for a ball or tug, so that has been what he will work for reliably.
> 
> Corrections when a dog does not understand what is required of them often shuts them down, and pushes them into avoidance. We often get people posting and complaining that their dog won't listen to them, but the dog is confused, and shutting down.


I totally agree with this. And I also use prongs, e collars, or collar corrections on a flat collar, or verbal corrections for that matter. And I meant to reply about something Julian said because I also find that to be true---that you can do more with reward only with a pup you get as a clean slate than an adult dog who has gotten away with murder, self rewarded for the wrong behaviors and so on. What Castlemaid was saying about pet trainers trying to salvage a completely out of control pet is pretty much that situation.

Though I have also seen pet dog trainers offering a quick "fix" for an out of control dog where I think the results indicate that the method was inhumane. By my standards. But I would classify that as an extreme case and there is a LOT of stuff in between.

But I can also say for certain plain old pet dog trainers definitely make a living in the opposite direction because I am in the midst of cookie pusher land where prongs are taboo


----------



## Muskeg

I like what Stonnie Dennis has to say on the subject of compulsion, and agree with his main points-


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## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> I like what Stonnie Dennis has to say on the subject of compulsion, and agree with his main points- The Role of Compulsion in Dog Training


LOL ... I have no disagreement with anything"Stonnie" has to say here. I am a "pet guy" myself and I consider it my job ... to make sure my dogs are dog under my control and are were well "behaved" and "civil" ... no big deal. 

The only reason ... I am here today is becasue ... I became very curious about my work with "Rocky???" I did not fully understand why what I did with him worked while others struggle? I did solved his "H/A" issues or "Fear of People" issues?? (Don't know don't care, but I went with unpredictable) and it was fairly simple to solve. But when I started the dog boards thing ... I found others dealing with the exact issues and they were struggling while I did not??? 

So you know ...what's the deal??? After a few years of seeking ... I finally found my answer! In Larry Krohn, (who I recently became aware of) he explained to me ... what I do. And it is pretty freaking simple. 

Stonnie did not use the "terms" but he is describing the difference between "Behaviour Modification" and "Training." IE if a dog is engaging in a behaviour that is a danger to the dog or others ... than it has to be addressed "directly" or you may not have a dog to "Train???" Pretty much that simple ... "the internet" ... can be your friend also ... if you know what to look for.


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## Deb

Nurse Bishop said:


> Another thing- about these full and limited registrations. I wondered at the time how in the world would a buyer know if a baby puppy was going to grow into something they wanted to breed ? Well, you can, for an additional fee, get it changed to full registration when the dog matures. Just thought I would pass that along.



A breeder with experience can pick out puppies who will not meet the standard as adults. And the owner cannot simply change a limited registration to a full registration by simply paying more money or an additional fee. The breeder must agree to it and fill out paperwork before a registration can be changed.


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## Muskeg

Yes, Chip, that is something some people fail to understand (I've been there) you need to actually address the behavior directly. Larry Krohn had a similar video recently on this- it's pretty much (with a bit of variation) something I hear every good trainer talk about. It's so sad that so many people are not able to find good information with all the bad out there right now. Here's what Larry has to say on the subject:


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Castlemaid said:


> I have easily trained fully reliable and cooperative responses in OB, off leash, with food and tug rewards.
> 
> A little collar correction here and there is fine, but getting a snarly face response or out-right protest behaviour means too much compulsion early on.
> 
> I do believe that results alone are not the criteria that training methods need to be evaluated on: the mindset of the dog needs to be taken into account too. For example, many dogs become collar wise when correction collars are used and training is compulsive - shows that the fear of the correction is what motivates them, not respect for the trainer, or the desire to comply.
> 
> My experience is that I got super results off leash, with positive, reward-based training techniques. With Keeta, ALL I was getting was protest behaviours with collar corrections and leash control, all that went away when we switched training methods.


This strange concept that your dog should never fear the consequence of failing to comply with a command makes no sense. This is not how the world works or even how nature operates. Everything every living being on this planet does is shaped by good consequences and bad consequences. 

To take an animal that operates on instinct, that has no moral compass or concept of right and wrong and attempt to apply a philosophy based on utopian ideals that doesn't even work with human beings makes even less sense. 

Get a ton of dogs through here. Pets, sport dogs, working dogs, young, old etc and have yet to see ONE reliable functionally obedient dog trained without the use of positive punishment.

Have heard many claims and have yet to see any proof .

Protest behaviours are simply your dogs attempt to control your actions some dogs offer little to none. Some dogs offer a profusion of them. Regardless, when you train through them you get a better dog in the end. 
Many handlers are unable or unwilling to hold their dogs truly accountable and quit when the going gets tough hence the stories. 

Training with food and toys can get you half the way there but at some point the bribery and manufactured motivation falls off and then you have nothing.

If you are lucky you have a low energy dog that won't go far or the super nervy type that will stick to you like glue because the world is terrifying and they have no confidence on their own.

I get sport dogs in here all the time with flashy obedience off leash and titles. Guess how reliable that is off the field? 

Better stick a ball in my arm pit if I want him to heel or trick him into believing I have one. Or maybe I show him the consequence of failing to heel and we can be honest with each other and he can have more freedom .


----------



## voodoolamb

Castlemaid said:


> I have easily trained fully reliable and cooperative responses in OB, off leash, with food and tug rewards.
> 
> A little collar correction here and there is fine, but getting a snarly face response or out-right protest behaviour means too much compulsion early on.
> 
> I do believe that results alone are not the criteria that training methods need to be evaluated on: the mindset of the dog needs to be taken into account too. For example, many dogs become collar wise when correction collars are used and training is compulsive - shows that the fear of the correction is what motivates them, not respect for the trainer, or the desire to comply.
> 
> My experience is that I got super results off leash, with positive, reward-based training techniques. With Keeta, ALL I was getting was protest behaviours with collar corrections and leash control, all that went away when we switched training methods.


I too have achieved reliable obedience with non compulsion techniques. 

I can, and have, called my dog off mid chase of wild animals, out of pack fights at the dog park, and even from a bitch in heat. 

I also agree with you that results alone are not the full story. I personally prefer the bond I have with my dog when I chose to use more positive techniques.


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## onyx'girl

foundation is key....and all dogs are individual in what they need as far as corrections, motivation. 
Protest behavior is the dogs way of communicating that there is something misunderstood or rushed, IMO. If the dog has already mastered an exercise, then protests, yes...consequences are a given. But a dog that balks when being corrected, I would look at my training methods first before assuming my dog is trying to control my actions. 
I learned that pushing the dog through will get me more respect from the dog, because I am expecting more , but it does need to be fair. 
I'd rather have a solid relationship with my dog and know what to expect from him/her as communication is important for me. I don't train dogs to send off to other handlers though, so my opinion comes from the journey I am on with the dog I am partnered with.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Another interesting concept. That you can bribe your dog into loving you more. Doesn't work with kids either . 
I have yet to see ONE person prove that their training methods impacted the love of their dog in any quantifiable way. 
On the other hand I have seen a lot of evidence that indicates how little respect dogs that go through unbalanced training systems have for their handlers.

Let's do a little trainers challenge. 
Post a video of your dog off leash heeling through a busy area for 10 minutes. 
No food or toys. 
Just your voice and your bond .


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## Thecowboysgirl

too bad no one video'd me at run thrus last night :/


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> This strange concept that your dog should never fear the consequence of failing to comply with a command makes no sense. This is not how the world works or even how nature operates. Everything every living being on this planet does is shaped by good consequences and bad consequences.
> 
> To take an animal that operates on instinct, that has no moral compass or concept of right and wrong and attempt to apply a philosophy based on utopian ideals that doesn't even work with human beings makes even less sense.
> 
> Get a ton of dogs through here. Pets, sport dogs, working dogs, young, old etc and have yet to see ONE reliable functionally obedient dog trained without the use of positive punishment.
> 
> Have heard many claims and have yet to see any proof .
> 
> Protest behaviours are simply your dogs attempt to control your actions some dogs offer little to none. Some dogs offer a profusion of them. Regardless, when you train through them you get a better dog in the end.
> Many handlers are unable or unwilling to hold their dogs truly accountable and quit when the going gets tough hence the stories.
> 
> Training with food and toys can get you half the way there but at some point the bribery and manufactured motivation falls off and then you have nothing.
> 
> If you are lucky you have a low energy dog that won't go far or the super nervy type that will stick to you like glue because the world is terrifying and they have no confidence on their own.
> 
> I get sport dogs in here all the time with flashy obedience off leash and titles. Guess how reliable that is off the field?
> 
> Better stick a ball in my arm pit if I want him to heel or trick him into believing I have one. Or maybe I show him the consequence of failing to heel and we can be honest with each other and he can have more freedom .


I know we videoed my service dog performing her tasks in public at some point, other than that I don't think I hardly ever videoed her working because there was just no reason to. I think there are tons of service dog organizations who produce SDs without compulsion--- Deb and Fodder, can you tell me if that's right?

Besides that, I don't think Castlemaid was saying to never use positive punishment? But I won't speak for her. I certainly wasn't saying I never use positive punishment or negative reinforcement. I do. I have shared many times that I started off in the pure positive camp and found it lacking after a point and then I changed.

What you are saying about a competition dog who can't do anything outside the ring, I know those are out there, I looked at one as a service dog candidate and turned him down because he was a nightmare in real life.

Anyway, I did say my female learned her public manners without compulsion and that's true, my training mentors were all pure positive then and it wouldn't have occurred to me to give her a correction, it just wasn't a thing on the table.


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## Nurse Bishop

Bltizkrieg, I really like your equation > praise three times as much as compulsion and praise twice as strong as compulsion.


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## cliffson1

So Blitzkreig and I finally agree on something...haha


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## Blitzkrieg1

Nurse Bishop said:


> Bltizkrieg, I really like your equation > praise three times as much as compulsion and praise twice as strong as compulsion.


That was cliff..lol. 
But he is right. If you choose not to be a walking food dispenser you had better be able to praise your dog productively. 
I saw recent study that suggests a handlers praise has just as much if not more impact on the dog as food.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Blitzkrieg1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This strange concept that your dog should never fear the consequence of failing to comply with a command makes no sense. This is not how the world works or even how nature operates. Everything every living being on this planet does is shaped by good consequences and bad consequences.
> 
> To take an animal that operates on instinct, that has no moral compass or concept of right and wrong and attempt to apply a philosophy based on utopian ideals that doesn't even work with human beings makes even less sense.
> 
> Get a ton of dogs through here. Pets, sport dogs, working dogs, young, old etc and have yet to see ONE reliable functionally obedient dog trained without the use of positive punishment.
> 
> Have heard many claims and have yet to see any proof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Protest behaviours are simply your dogs attempt to control your actions some dogs offer little to none. Some dogs offer a profusion of them. Regardless, when you train through them you get a better dog in the end.
> Many handlers are unable or unwilling to hold their dogs truly accountable and quit when the going gets tough hence the stories.
> 
> Training with food and toys can get you half the way there but at some point the bribery and manufactured motivation falls off and then you have nothing.
> 
> If you are lucky you have a low energy dog that won't go far or the super nervy type that will stick to you like glue because the world is terrifying and they have no confidence on their own.
> 
> I get sport dogs in here all the time with flashy obedience off leash and titles. Guess how reliable that is off the field?
> 
> Better stick a ball in my arm pit if I want him to heel or trick him into believing I have one. Or maybe I show him the consequence of failing to heel and we can be honest with each other and he can have more freedom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> I know we videoed my service dog performing her tasks in public at some point, other than that I don't think I hardly ever videoed her working because there was just no reason to. I think there are tons of service dog organizations who produce SDs without compulsion--- Deb and Fodder, can you tell me if that's right?
> 
> Besides that, I don't think Castlemaid was saying to never use positive punishment? But I won't speak for her. I certainly wasn't saying I never use positive punishment or negative reinforcement. I do. I have shared many times that I started off in the pure positive camp and found it lacking after a point and then I changed.
> 
> What you are saying about a competition dog who can't do anything outside the ring, I know those are out there, I looked at one as a service dog candidate and turned him down because he was a nightmare in real life.
> 
> Anyway, I did say my female learned her public manners without compulsion and that's true, my training mentors were all pure positive then and it wouldn't have occurred to me to give her a correction, it just wasn't a thing on the table.
Click to expand...

Many SD organizations do not use anything other then positive methods. It removes many of their options and really limits the potential functionality of many of their dogs. 

Why do you think they are so selective about the type of dogs they take on? 
I have seen the lab puppies in training..lol. They are low energy biddable dogs. The type of dogs that will be easy to live with if you never train them at all.

Ironically I have trained a GSD for service dog work. His handler wanted a reliable dog that actually did more then just walk around with him.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> That was cliff..lol.
> But he is right. If you choose not to be a walking food dispenser you had better be able to praise your dog productively.
> I saw recent study that suggests a handlers praise has just as much if not more impact on the dog as food.


LOL! You didn't know that?


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Many SD organizations do not use anything other then positive methods. It removes many of their options and really limits the potential functionality of many of their dogs.
> 
> Why do you think they are so selective about the type of dogs they take on?
> I have seen the lab puppies in training..lol. They are low energy biddable dogs. The type of dogs that will be easy to live with if you never train them at all.
> 
> Ironically I have trained a GSD for service dog work. His handler wanted a reliable dog that actually did more then just walk around with him.[/QUOTE
> 
> as far as I know the reason service dog organizations are so selective about the type of dogs they breed or use is because it takes a really special temperament to do the work successfully. Takes a specific type of dog.
> 
> Low energy...I am not so sure about this, service work can sometimes be extremely demanding on the dog. Easy to live with, yes, they better be. Can a person in a wheelchair handle a dog that is hard to live with and hard to handle, probably not. They must absolutely be biddable and easy to live with, in my mind those are attributes, not faults.
> 
> I also think there is sometimes a misconception about service dogs and their level of energy and calmness. Because when they are working they often appear that way, but that's not really what it is.
> 
> I don't know what service dog you are insinuating just walks around with its handler. Please clarify


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Another interesting concept. That you can bribe your dog into loving you more. Doesn't work with kids either .
> I have yet to see ONE person prove that their training methods impacted the love of their dog in any quantifiable way.
> On the other hand I have seen a lot of evidence that indicates how little respect dogs that go through unbalanced training systems have for their handlers.
> 
> Let's do a little trainers challenge.
> Post a video of your dog off leash heeling through a busy area for 10 minutes.
> No food or toys.
> Just your voice and your bond .


Who said anything about bribing a dog to love you more? There is no way that I am aware of to scientifically measure love and trust.

Also, in your definition of functional obedience, does qualifying at trials count? As evidence of functional obedience? Or not?


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Who said anything about bribing a dog to love you more?


I don't know in what context exactly that was stated???

But I looked at in a "broader" context than this discussion perhaps or maybe also ... don't know? But my take on "that" is ... all of us, at least those of us who have family/friends and acquaintances ...regular folks not dog people. know people and dogs that take a "bribe for luv" approach. And by and large ... those dogs tend to be "obnoxious" to varying degrees. I tend to view discussions and information thru my own "pet issues basis."

And in "Pet World" people do "bribe for luv" all the time. And their idea of a consequence or an aversive is "No Treat For You Roofus." And when that approach fails ... depending on ... the dog and the circumstances ... "JQP" ends up getting involved with someone else's dog. Strangers family or friends get bit, neighbors have to contend with "fools" constantly barking dogs and my hmmm (other) pet peeve stray dog encounters!  


Most likely behind all that "crap," you will find a "Bribe for Luv" philosophy??? I can't say for sure ... on account of I never bother to ask ... "I have a pretty low threshold for fools and there dogs." But that's just my take on what I read, from my point of view.


----------



## Castlemaid

Sure, I bribe my dog, LOL. 

He uses me. 

Let's keep in mind that there is a difference between teaching the basics to a puppy in a way that develops their desire and enjoyment of working with their owners, and later proofing for solid obedience when a more mature dog understands the request, but pushes the envelop to see what they can get away with. 

The OP used a prong collar on a 3.5 month old puppy - and though there might be situations where this could be the best tool available for a particular puppy, in the vast majority of cases, one can get happy and very quick learning when work and training is paired with positive associations. There is a lot proven science behind this theory.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I thought of a LOT more things I wanted to say about all this and ask people. Hopefully I won't forget them all before I get them written down. Here is a quote:

"On the other hand I have seen a lot of evidence that indicates how little respect dogs that go through unbalanced training systems have for their handlers."
@Blitzkrieg, I would like to know what evidence you are talking about and what you consider an unbalanced training system, reward only? I strongly feel that it is a myth that reward only or mostly reward trained dogs don't respect their handlers. I do not think that punishment earns respect. I don't think that rewards reduce respect. 

Earlier Blitzkrieg said something about the dog should fear the consequences of misbehaving. I was trying to think if there is a situation where my dogs "fear" consequences. I am still considering it but I don't think that's a thing for us. There are boundaries they won't cross because it's been made clear to them that it's non negotiable, but "fear" is still not the word I would use. 

My impression is that the vast majority of dogs who are misbehaving or doing stuff people don't want them to do is because they simply don't know any better. No one has ever shown them in a way they could understand, for a long enough period of time, and followed through to make it so, how they were supposed to act. That's really not disrespect in my opinion. That's just an animal acting like an animal.

For me personally, I don't want there to be any conflict if it's avoidable. Dr. Phil says (HAHA!!) that he avoid conflict with children at any cost. But if conflict happens, you never lose. I feel like that kinda sums up my feeling. If I can teach a dog positions with food, I wouldn't bother doing it any other way because it works great and there is no conflict. I never want to fight with my dogs.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Chip18 said:


> I don't know in what context exactly that was stated???
> 
> But I looked at in a "broader" context than this discussion perhaps or maybe also ... don't know? But my take on "that" is ... all of us, at least those of us who have family/friends and acquaintances ...regular folks not dog people. know people and dogs that take a "bribe for luv" approach. And by and large ... those dogs tend to be "obnoxious" to varying degrees. I tend to view discussions and information thru my own "pet issues basis."
> 
> And in "Pet World" people do "bribe for luv" all the time. And their idea of a consequence or an aversive is "No Treat For You Roofus." And when that approach fails ... depending on ... the dog and the circumstances ... "JQP" ends up getting involved with someone else's dog. Strangers family or friends get bit, neighbors have to contend with "fools" constantly barking dogs and my hmmm (other) pet peeve stray dog encounters!
> 
> 
> Most likely behind all that "crap," you will find a "Bribe for Luv" philosophy??? I can't say for sure ... on account of I never bother to ask ... "I have a pretty low threshold for fools and there dogs." But that's just my take on what I read, from my point of view.


I don't think I've heard or witnessed anything resembling bribing for love or even bribing period in even the quackiest of the pure positive trainers and trust me, I've spent a lot of time with some REALLY fruity pure positives.


----------



## cdwoodcox

Bribery and luring with food and toys is an excellent way to teach puppies what we want them to do. We hope that after enough times and repetitions the command automatically gets a response. Muscle memory type thing. I see absolutely no reason to choke, prong, or e-collar a puppy. The question is. And every dog is different, when do we add corrections for not doing what we want. With Athena and Rosko it is whenever they fully understand what I mean when I give them a command. So, teach with food, repetition with toys/food, corrections to solidify a learned behavior. With Apollo it is all fun treats, toys, praise. Put a prong or choke on him he shuts down. A simple verbal correction is all that is needed to stop an unwanted behavior or for not following commands. I have never seen a positive only trainer I would think that they would only get so far before the dog figures out that chasing a deer is better than getting a biscuit. I have went to one no treats, the dog has to work for you trainer. He watched me and Athena work with no treats or toys and said keep doing whatever you are doing. It works so why change it. There are a lot of ways to train a dog. But the most effective strictly depends on the goal and the dog. Not our personal ideologies.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Castlemaid said:


> Sure, I bribe my dog, LOL.
> 
> He uses me.
> 
> Let's keep in mind that there is a difference between teaching the basics to a puppy in a way that develops their desire and enjoyment of working with their owners, and later proofing for solid obedience when a more mature dog understands the request, but pushes the envelop to see what they can get away with.
> 
> The OP used a prong collar on a 3.5 month old puppy - and though there might be situations where this could be the best tool available for a particular puppy, in the vast majority of cases, one can get happy and very quick learning when work and training is paired with positive associations. There is a lot proven science behind this theory.


 I did not use a prong collar on a 3.5 month old puppy. please read my original post. Inga got and gets a ton of positive, just not in the form of food treats.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Don Sullivan's training collar is a plastic collar made of links and operated like a martingale. It looks like this. I use this picture so you can see one on a dog. The Perfect Dog? - Official Site of Don Sullivan's Dog Training System There are many ways to skin a cat or train a dog. I am not trying to dis anyone, What we have tried works very well for Inga. She is a joyful creature. Today we are working on looking at what I point to out of a selection scattered over the hillside, get it and bring it. What fun. She is SO SMART.


----------



## Castlemaid

Nurse Bishop said:


> Don Sullivan's method- when we started training, and my man and I were total novices- except for training horses,- so we got his CDs and the *plastic mild prong. Inga was three months old then I think.*


Plastic Prong (okay, it looks more mild than a regular prong collar, I'll give you that). 3 month old? Maybe I'm reading it wrong?


----------



## Deb

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Many SD organizations do not use anything other then positive methods. It removes many of their options and really limits the potential functionality of many of their dogs.
> 
> Why do you think they are so selective about the type of dogs they take on?
> I have seen the lab puppies in training..lol. They are low energy biddable dogs. The type of dogs that will be easy to live with if you never train them at all.
> 
> Ironically I have trained a GSD for service dog work. His handler wanted a reliable dog that actually did more then just walk around with him.



My organization uses positive training methods primarily. It has not limited our options or the potential functionality of the dog. Half of our dogs are currently GSDs. 


Can you explain what your handler expected or wanted from his service dog that was 'more then just walk around with him'?


----------



## cloudpump

Nurse Bishop said:


> Don Sullivan's training collar is a plastic collar made of links and operated like a martingale. It looks like this. I use this picture so you can see one on a dog. The Perfect Dog? - Official Site of Don Sullivan's Dog Training System There are many ways to skin a cat or train a dog. I am not trying to dis anyone, What we have tried works very well for Inga. She is a joyful creature. Today we are working on looking at what I point to out of a selection scattered over the hillside, get it and bring it. What fun. She is SO SMART.


It is designed to mimic the mother dogs bite according to the site. Pinches. Like a prong.


----------



## onyx'girl

One of my clients has a small Aussiedoodledog. She went through the Don Sullivan training program when the dog was young. 
Bought the miracle collar(plastic prong) and to this day, 8 years later that dog wears the collar 24/7. I have removed it twice when the coat was tangled up in it, hoping the owner would not put it on unless it was connected to a leash. 
I feel bad for that dog, she barely weighs 30lbs and a prong collar is hardly necessary. 
I know, blame the owner, not the DS program....His name leaves a bad taste in my mouth regardless.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

cloudpump said:


> It is designed to mimic the mother dogs bite according to the site. Pinches. Like a prong.


 It is like a very mild prong, not like a metal prong. I actually have tried both on my own neck and human neck is much more sensitive than dog neck. I have also tried both low and high settings of ecollars on my hand. Low is like a tickle, it is a signal.


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't think I've heard or witnessed anything resembling bribing for love or even bribing period in even the quackiest of the pure positive trainers and trust me, I've spent a lot of time with some REALLY fruity pure positives.


Oh I'm sure I've seen it ... one of my friends. Hugs and kisses liberal use of treats to achieve ... whatever level of control she has over her GSD/Mix??

No way in hades could that dog walk off leash! And she is ...mediocre at best on leash. Most likely a liberal use of treats was used to accomplish that lack luster performance?? I don't know because I never have asked ... I've known her for twenty some odd years. She has never asked for my advise or help and I've never offered. 

I don't live close to her so her dog's bad behavior is not my problem. But ... I did get to see her "hugs and Kisses" and liberal use of treats approach first hand. We went to the store and "waited outside for "Marilyn" to come back. 

Every Time someone came close to the car ... "Baily" would go off like a stick of dynamite!!??? 

My thought was off course ... are you freaking kidding me!!!!!!!!!! My hugs and kisses, treat feeding feeds approach was "Baily No, Baily's response was ... "Bark Bark Bark." her reply was again "Baily No! And her response was again. "Bailey No" and Bailey's response was of course "Bark Bark Bark." After a few more tries, she simply turned her back on "Bailey" and let her continue to do what she did ... there were no "consequences" for "poor" behaviour. 

No treats, no compliance and no consequences .... I don't know if "Bailey" would have cared about "treats" anyway??? 

Just an observation on my part. Hugs, Kisses and liberal use of treats ... I'm pretty certain ... is at the heart of that experiance on my part?? I don't know as I don't care ... not my problem ... in that instance.


----------



## Chip18

onyx'girl said:


> One of my clients has a small Aussiedoodledog. She went through the Don Sullivan training program when the dog was young.
> Bought the miracle collar(plastic prong) and to this day, 8 years later that dog wears the collar 24/7. I have removed it twice when the coat was tangled up in it, hoping the owner would not put it on unless it was connected to a leash.
> I feel bad for that dog, she barely weighs 30lbs and a prong collar is hardly necessary.
> I know, blame the owner, not the DS program....His name leaves a bad taste in my mouth regardless.


No doubt ... that just sucks! But ... at least despite her hmm, continued misunderstanding of dogs and there behaviour at least she's making an effort!

Herder dogs are a true "PIA" for the unskilled! I used to think they all just flat out sucked! Until I had one on my hands in a rescue situation (neighbor dog a lot of issues and when she escaped into my yard for third time) ... he was done ... off to the pound you go, I intervened a long story but to cut to the chase ... it turned out it's not the dog it was the owner! 

I supplied the dog with sigh ... treat free ... "Rules/Structure and Limitations!" Worked out fine ... I'd luv'd to have kept her as I was not only impressed with her but fell in Luv. Alas not to be ... I'd done my part to well and she was adopted a few months later ... I should have taken her off the available list much sooner.


----------



## Deb

Chip, have you ever considered it's not the method but the owner who has a hand in the final outcome in whether a dog is well trained or not?


----------



## Chip18

cdwoodcox said:


> Bribery and luring with food and toys is an excellent way to teach puppies what we want them to do. We hope that after enough times and repetitions the command automatically gets a response. Muscle memory type thing. I see absolutely no reason to choke, prong, or e-collar a puppy. The question is. And every dog is different, when do we add corrections for not doing what we want. With Athena and Rosko it is whenever they fully understand what I mean when I give them a command. So, teach with food, repetition with toys/food, corrections to solidify a learned behavior. With Apollo it is all fun treats, toys, praise. Put a prong or choke on him he shuts down. A simple verbal correction is all that is needed to stop an unwanted behavior or for not following commands. I have never seen a positive only trainer I would think that they would only get so far before the dog figures out that chasing a deer is better than getting a biscuit. I have went to one no treats, the dog has to work for you trainer. He watched me and Athena work with no treats or toys and said keep doing whatever you are doing. It works so why change it. There are a lot of ways to train a dog. But the most effective strictly depends on the goal and the dog. Not our personal ideologies.


If people can use treats ... properly and effectively ... go for it. Most likely people that can do that "properly" ... don't have dogs I have to deal with on street??

But not every trainer uses treats they use praise ... but I will ... narrow my focus to "family pets" and for family pets ... you don't "need" to use treats to have a well behaved dog.

Treats did not work for me ... based on my experiance ... dog number one my D/A Bandog ... good luck with treats. Dog number two ... my "Boxer" treats made her uh ... even more nutty than usual?? And personnel dog number three my first "OS Wl GSD" and his "People Issues???" Good luck with as I describe it "tricking people into his face with the use of treats??" I never even attempted that! Worked out fine. 

So... I rolled into "Rescue work" as a "No treat kinda guy" and it's worked out just fine. If people can use "treats" properly ... fine go for it. Most likely the people that get the treat thing right are not the people ... whose dogs I have encountered ... numerous times on the street! 

Dogs like yours ... are not my problem but people that think "Hugs and Kisses and liberal use of treats" is the be all answer to there dogs behaviours ... yeah most likely ... those dogs are the one ... I am forced to deal with! Fortunately for them ... I chose not to deal with those owners failure with "lethal force"... just saying. 

But ...treat away ... my goals are simple ... have a well behaved dog ... and I have found ... that with my dogs and rescues ... you don't "need" treats to accomplish that. Others ... are of course free ... to do as they see fit.

But ... I'm gonna also say ... I'm pretty sure that "owners" that follow Blitzkrieg's advise (philosophy) ... are "not" dogs that I have ever encountered ... loose on the street?? The "hugs and kisses" and "treats" advocates however ... yeah I'm pretty sure ... that's where those dogs hail from?? I don't know however, as after I have to deal with those fails ... I'm not really in a mood to ask question!


----------



## cdwoodcox

Chip18 said:


> If people can use treats ... properly and effectively ... go for it. Most likely people that can do that "properly" ... don't have dogs I have to deal with on street??
> 
> But not every trainer uses treats they use praise ... but I will ... narrow my focus to "family pets" and for family pets ... you don't "need" to use treats to have a well behaved dog.
> 
> Treats did not work for me ... based on my experiance ... dog number one my D/A Bandog ... good luck with treats. Dog number two ... my "Boxer" treats made her uh ... even more nutty than usual?? And personnel dog number three my first "OS Wl GSD" and his "People Issues???" Good luck with as I describe it "tricking people into his face with the use of treats??" I never even attempted that! Worked out fine.
> 
> So... I rolled into "Rescue work" as a "No treat kinda guy" and it's worked out just fine. If people can use "treats" properly ... fine go for it. Most likely the people that get the treat thing right are not the people ... whose dogs I have encountered ... numerous times on the street!
> 
> Dogs like yours ... are not my problem but people that think "Hugs and Kisses and liberal use of treats" is the be all answer to there dogs behaviours ... yeah most likely ... those dogs are the one ... I am forced to deal with! Fortunately for them ... I chose not to deal with those owners failure with "lethal force"... just saying.
> 
> But ...treat away ... my goals are simple ... have a well behaved dog ... and I have found ... that with my dogs and rescues ... you don't "need" treats to accomplish that. Others ... are of course free ... to do as they see fit.
> 
> But ... I'm gonna also say ... I'm pretty sure that "owners" that follow Blitzkrieg's advise (philosophy) ... are "not" dogs that I have ever encountered ... loose on the street?? The "hugs and kisses" and "treats" advocates however ... yeah I'm pretty sure ... that's where those dogs hail from?? I don't know however, as after I have to deal with those fails ... I'm not really in a mood to ask question!


 I agree that if you're dealing with dogs where there is already an issue. Forget about treats. I am referring to dogs raised from puppies. Either for sport or just pets. The dog and goal should dictate how the dog is trained. I have three dogs and they all three have a custom tailored training system. But my goal is to get all of my dogs to the highest level they can reach. Either in obedience or sport. 
However, with my oldest two the most reliable commands were taught using either a choke or e-collar.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

No a trial isnt functional obedience.. A trial is essentially a chain of tricks that you string together in an environment in which your dog has been conditioned to believe a reward exists.
Post video..it's easy in this day and age.

The video that was shared earlier of Don Sullivan with the black lab pup is an example of functional obedience.

He trained the pup with a choke by the way.

At the end of the day it's important to be honest. Many people have different standards of training and reliability that they consider acceptable.
For me it's a dog that I can take any place off leash have him come, heel, sit, down and place when he is told. 
This should take no longer then a few weeks to fully train and be applicable to any breed or type of dog.

If your standard is different perhaps another type of system is best for you.


----------



## Chip18

Deb said:


> Chip, have you ever considered it's not the method but the owner who has a hand in the final outcome in whether a dog is well trained or not?


Worthy of an answer. 

And I'll try and explain my point of view becasue ... it's fairly simple. I seriously doubt I have ever encountered any "paws on the street issues" with dogs who were trained following "Blitz's" training advise?? But I will say ... I don't know??? When I am forced to deal with some tools dog that come after mine ... "I'm" not in a mood to ask question. And I suppose becasue of my "attitude"I have most likely, lost opportunities to collect empirical data on how those dogs were "actually" trained??? 

Still in my neighborhood ... I have seen only a few well trained dogs, walking calmly on a loose leash. We smile and nod to each other ... from across the street. The only dog that I have seen (off leash walking calmly with his owner aside from one "Border Collie" ... many years ago (my inspiration) is "Rocky." Most likely ... that is someone I should have talked to but I did not. 

It's likely ... you are correct ie not the method but the owner?? I can't say. But I feel comfortable in saying that "most likely" ... hugs, kisses and treats are at the heart of issues I have with loose dog encounters?? Purely based on the fact ... that "JQP" believes ... that's the way to go. If people can train there dog properly ... by whatever means ... I don't care as it's most likely ... "we" won't have a problem. 

My dogs and dogs I Have worked with from rescue (who I do not know) are like smoke. No one knows we are there unless they see us or there poorly trained dog ... gets in our face. I can get that "smoke like" performance from dogs I do not know ... in less than 4 minutes. So ... not much time for treats, hugs and kisses?

Most likely however you are correct ... "not the method but the owner??" I will have to consider that?? Right now ... I do my part by not stabbing and gunning down "owner fails" in the street when there "failure to train" by methods I "suspect but don't know" ... get in me and my dogs face! 

Two such encounters in less than three weeks at the moment ... so I'm a little touchy at the moment.


----------



## Deb

Chip18 said:


> Worthy of an answer.
> 
> And I'll try and explain my point of view becasue ... it's fairly simple. I seriously doubt I have ever encountered any "paws on the street issues" with dogs who were trained following "Blitz's" training advise?? But I will say ... I don't know??? When I am forced to deal with some tools dog that come after mine ... "I'm" not in a mood to ask question. And I suppose becasue of my "attitude"I have most likely, lost opportunities to collect empirical data on how those dogs were "actually" trained???
> 
> Still in my neighborhood ... I have seen only a few well trained dogs, walking calmly on a loose leash. We smile and nod to each other ... from across the street. The only dog that I have seen (off leash walking calmly with his owner aside from one "Border Collie" ... many years ago (my inspiration) is "Rocky." Most likely ... that is someone I should have talked to but I did not.
> 
> It's likely ... you are correct ie not the method but the owner?? I can't say. But I feel comfortable in saying that "most likely" ... hugs, kisses and treats are at the heart of issues I have with loose dog encounters?? Purely based on the fact ... that "JQP" believes ... that's the way to go. If people can train there dog properly ... by whatever means ... I don't care as it's most likely ... "we" won't have a problem.
> 
> My dogs and dogs I Have worked with from rescue (who I do not know) are like smoke. No one knows we are there unless they see us or there poorly trained dog ... gets in our face. I can get that "smoke like" performance from dogs I do not know ... in less than 4 minutes. So ... not much time for treats, hugs and kisses?
> 
> Most likely however you are correct ... "not the method but the owner??" I will have to consider that?? Right now ... I do my part by not stabbing and gunning down "owner fails" in the street when there "failure to train" by methods I "suspect but don't know" ... get in me and my dogs face!
> 
> Two such encounters in less than three weeks at the moment ... so I'm a little touchy at the moment.



I think the crux of the matter is with the dogs you saw who were well behaved, you don't know how they were trained. You saw them after the training was completed. I have a feeling the dogs you meet that are a problem were NOT trained with any real method. Yes, the majority of rescues work with positive training methods. But from what you've said of your neighborhood, how many of them went to a rescue to get a dog? Filled out all the paperwork, had vet recommendations and had a home visit. Or are the odds better they got them from a friend with a litter or off of a craigslist ad or something similar to that? I'd likely guess that over fifty percent of families with dogs don't do any sort of 'real' training. As long as their dog is housebroke and semi behaved, they are happy with it like that. Or it's in the backyard and as long as it doesn't bite the kids when they play they are happy with it. When you write about the dogs you meet it sounds like you're assuming all of them have had some sort of 'real' training put into them. I'd say the majority of them have not had any real training.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No a trial isnt functional obedience.. A trial is essentially a chain of tricks that you string together in an environment in which your dog has been conditioned to believe a reward exists.
> Post video..it's easy in this day and age.
> 
> The video that was shared earlier of Don Sullivan with the black lab pup is an example of functional obedience.
> 
> He trained the pup with a choke by the way.
> 
> At the end of the day it's important to be honest. Many people have different standards of training and reliability that they consider acceptable.
> For me it's a dog that I can take any place off leash have him come, heel, sit, down and place when he is told.
> This should take no longer then a few weeks to fully train and be applicable to any breed or type of dog.
> 
> If your standard is different perhaps another type of system is best for you.


Speaking of video, I noticed that there was food or toys being used in I think all of your videos that I clicked on? So I guess I am a little confused as to why you are asking me to prove I can walk my dog somewhere off a leash without food or toys? 

Yes I would say my standard is different than your standard, specifically because I don't apply a time frame that says "a, b, c will happen in x amount of time." 

I guess when you get right down to it you could call anything you train a dog to do a trick. Even service dog tasks. Though those tricks have mighty important uses. Do do I sense disdain from you about "tricks" and "trialing"...do you think this is pointless performance of tricks, @Blizkrieg1. Does trialing hold any value to you?

So I am thinking to myself, I had my dog at run thrus the other night working offleash in a very small area surrounded by other dogs, all the reactive nasty dogs were on one end of the ring and most of them blew at her as we passed by, and she continued to do her thing. She knocked over a sign and I stopped to fix it and was kneeling down with my back to her paying her absolutely no attention at all and when I was done there she was waiting for me, never took her eyes off me. Honestly, that's plenty functional enough for me.

Heck I have pottied her at gas stations on road trips with no leash. 

So, okay...where am I legally allowed to walk my dog through a busy area with no leash. I even went so far as to google city ordinances for the towns near me and I haven't been able to find it. I have sneakily worked my younger dog off leash in TSC before not knowing for sure if I was breaking rules or not so it was short and well supervised. So that's all the energy or time I have for investigating how I could prove to you that I can walk, sit, stay a dog offleash...

Another thing I will say is that walking through stores or town or wherever off a leash is not a standard I hold mine or anyone else's dogs to because most places it just isn't smart or legal to do that and I don't think I know anyone who just doesn't use a leash (except for people who all walk offleash up and down my road but this is a dirt country road and there is no leash law here)

Here is a standard I hold my dogs to and I think everyone should, that I could call them back to me under any circumstances, anywhere, any time. If I tell them to stay in an open doorway they will. 

About that standard, if my choice was between taking a dog somewhere on a leash, or using training techniques that I believe are unfair to the dog or unnecessarily harsh, I'd just use a leash. That's a no brainer for me. Perhaps I can get that dog to do all those things offleash in two months (an arbitrary number) instead of two weeks, but by training in a way that I feel is more fair to the dog, that is what I would do. I think my young dog is a good example of that now. His next rally trial will be offleash because he's finished the on leash title. Well, venue rules state the dogs have to be on leash at all times except during higher level runs so he has no practice being offleash at a rally trial. So, my plan is to take him to run thru's at different facilities to be sure he is ready before he is entered. It's generalizing. Can you do all these things I've taught you to do under these new different circumstances. IF not we'll practice till we can. I don't think it will be a problem for him because in every situation I can think of he is the same on leash or off. I have taken him in the dog park when it was empty and done obedience routines offleash (everywhere else at that park has leash laws and stiff fines) It smells like a thousand other dogs and he went to work anyway. If he's never had an opportunity to practice off leash at a rally trial, I don't think it would be fair to punish him for not performing perfectly the first time he is offleash, we just need to practice and generalize a little more. 

When he broke stays at group class it was because a nasty dog near him had snarked at him for no reason and he didn't want to be alone with that dog. He wanted to come to me. I did not punish him for that. So I have more work to do on long stays from across the room. That's fine. I'm not going to punish him for coming to me because a nasty dog is making him feel uncomfortable, even if it means it takes us longer to get a long stay.

@Blizkrieg1 I'd still like to know what you meant about the service dog who just walks next to the person?

And I couldn't agree more with what you said, at the end of the day, it's important to be honest.


----------



## dogma13

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> No a trial isnt functional obedience.. A trial is essentially a chain of tricks that you string together in an environment in which your dog has been conditioned to believe a reward exists.
> Post video..it's easy in this day and age.
> 
> The video that was shared earlier of Don Sullivan with the black lab pup is an example of functional obedience.
> 
> He trained the pup with a choke by the way.
> 
> At the end of the day it's important to be honest. Many people have different standards of training and reliability that they consider acceptable.
> For me it's a dog that I can take any place off leash have him come, heel, sit, down and place when he is told.
> This should take no longer then a few weeks to fully train and be applicable to any breed or type of dog.
> 
> If your standard is different perhaps another type of system is best for you.


You're correct in that there are owners that are training specifically for a venue and the dogs don't do so well and aren't expected to be" functionally obedient" in day to day scenarios.But labeling every dog and owner that competes as just a trick trainer is inaccurate.
As far as posting videos of our dogs being "functionally obedient" in a busy setting,I would love to!And so would other members probably except busy public places have leash laws.Even at trials the dogs must be leashed unless they are actually in the ring and judging begins.


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I never want to fight with my dogs.


Oh this time I could be simple clear and to the point ... I ended up fighting with my dog, that ... did not work. :surprise:


----------



## Chip18

Deb said:


> I think the crux of the matter is with the dogs you saw who were well behaved, you don't know how they were trained. You saw them after the training was completed. I have a feeling the dogs you meet that are a problem were NOT trained with any real method. Yes, the majority of rescues work with positive training methods. But from what you've said of your neighborhood, how many of them went to a rescue to get a dog? Filled out all the paperwork, had vet recommendations and had a home visit. Or are the odds better they got them from a friend with a litter or off of a craigslist ad or something similar to that? I'd likely guess that over fifty percent of families with dogs don't do any sort of 'real' training. As long as their dog is housebroken and semi behaved, they are happy with it like that. Or it's in the backyard and as long as it doesn't bite the kids when they play they are happy with it. When you write about the dogs you meet it sounds like you're assuming all of them have had some sort of 'real' training put into them. I'd say the majority of them have not had any real training.


Oh no doubt your assessment is most likely accurate also. 

Out here people with well trained dogs stand out like sore thumbs on neighborhood walks. And we give each other space ... no problem. I don't know those well behaved dogs are trained either?? All though I suspect on one occasion ... I someone walking a "Sled Dog" and something seemed different that time??? I suspect she was a "pro" but I don't know??

But there are lot's of well behaved dogs out here. Dayton Valley Days ... "Pet Parade" lots of dogs of all kinds "Bulldogs, Boston Terriers a Scottish Deerhound and Dogue de Bordeaux to name a few. Other than "Pet Parade" day ... I never see them?? GSD's ... all seem to be Tan and Blacks and usually in the back of Subaru's SUV's or inside pick ups being whisked off to somewhere??? 

Most likely ... the dogs I have issues with are ... likely, such as you describe ... back yard only ... and "never" get out "normally." 

Even given no real training, however it's likely a fairly safe "assumption" that if those owners did anything??? It would have been ... "hug and Kisses" (affection) and treats (bribing) to get whatever "minimum" level of obedience they did get ???

Cause you know everybody does that ... pretty sure my "black lab" encounter (no pointy ears) showed that approach only?? Clearly hat approach ... does not ensure a solid recall! Course yet again ... I did not ask ...how they ... "trained" there dog ... as I was not in a mood to ask questions.

Still ... I'll give some ground, if "hugs, kisses and treats" are put in the category of "tools" ... well then ... "any tool" improperly used ... can be abused."


----------



## Deb

Chip18 said:


> Oh no doubt your assessment is most likely accurate also.
> 
> Out here people with well trained dogs stand out like sore thumbs on neighborhood walks. And we give each other space ... no problem. I don't know those well behaved dogs are trained either?? All though I suspect on one occasion ... I someone walking a "Sled Dog" and something seemed different that time??? I suspect she was a "pro" but I don't know??
> 
> But there are lot's of well behaved dogs out here. Dayton Valley Days ... "Pet Parade" lots of dogs of all kinds "Bulldogs, Boston Terriers a Scottish Deerhound and Dogue de Bordeaux to name a few. Other than "Pet Parade" day ... I never see them?? GSD's ... all seem to be Tan and Blacks and usually in the back of Subaru's SUV's or inside pick ups being whisked off to somewhere???
> 
> Most likely ... the dogs I have issues with are ... likely, such as you describe ... back yard only ... and "never" get out "normally."
> 
> *Even given no real training, however it's likely a fairly safe "assumption" that if those owners did anything??? It would have been ... "hug and Kisses" (affection) and treats (bribing) to get whatever "minimum" level of obedience they did get ???*
> 
> Cause you know everybody does that ... pretty sure my "black lab" encounter (no pointy ears) showed that approach only?? Clearly hat approach ... does not ensure a solid recall! Course yet again ... I did not ask ...how they ... "trained" there dog ... as I was not in a mood to ask questions.
> 
> Still ... I'll give some ground, if "hugs, kisses and treats" are put in the category of "tools" ... well then ... "any tool" improperly used ... can be abused."



Ironically I find just the opposite. The people I've worked with don't use treats/praise or hugs/kisses training. Some are hit the dog, raise a stick and hit with the stick, jerk it around, throw a prong on it and jerk, etc.. Now maybe that's just where I live, but the majority of people have no idea what the rest of the world, dog people, are doing to train their dogs. They don't go to classes, they don't look online to see how to train a dog, they have no clue there are even training methods. Most have no desire to watch tv shows that show you how to train. Half of them have never heard of Cesar Millan, or they might recognize the name and say 'isn't he the guy with the dogs?'. I think many of us in the 'dog world' fail to realize how little JQP really cares about dog training or how to do it.


----------



## Chip18

Deb said:


> Ironically I find just the opposite. The people I've worked with don't use treats/praise or hugs/kisses training. Some are hit the dog, raise a stick and hit with the stick, jerk it around, throw a prong on it and jerk, etc.. Now maybe that's just where I live, but the majority of people have no idea what the rest of the world, dog people, are doing to train their dogs. They don't go to classes, they don't look online to see how to train a dog, they have no clue there are even training methods. Most have no desire to watch tv shows that show you how to train. Half of them have never heard of Cesar Millan, or they might recognize the name and say 'isn't he the guy with the dogs?'. I think many of us in the 'dog world' fail to realize how little JQP really cares about dog training or how to do it.


Ugh ... well thanks for the insight! When I say fighting with "Rocky" ... nothing like that was happening, he was raging against "Gunther" and I was "reacting" to "Rocky's" behaviour. 

When the people thing came up ... I understood my Plan A (reacting) did not seem like a viable option??? I was "fighting with a lack of knowledge and understanding." At that point ... I "apparently" stumbled onto what "Larry Krohn and Cesar Millan" do all the time. Cept I discovered it the hard way by accident ... walk your dog and build a bond of trust ... who knew??? It is ... a Bond ... apparently "A thing" ... who knew. 

I don't really know any dog people locally, so most likely ... the minimal effort route is the norm here. Both my neighbors and my other friend and her herder dogs ... for example.

But I suppose when one does have the opportunity to communicate with other dog people as we do here. You'd think "we" get a bit beyond the well your way sucks and this is why bit. I've been "trying" to do a bit less of that ... not always successfully I suppose??? 

I'm not pointing to others ... just saying.


----------



## Deb

Chip18 said:


> Ugh ... well thanks for the insight! When I say fighting with "Rocky" ... nothing like that was happening, he was raging against "Gunther" and I was "reacting" to "Rocky's" behaviour.
> 
> When the people thing came up ... I understood my Plan A (reacting) did not seem like a viable option??? I was "fighting with a lack of knowledge and understanding." At that point ... I "apparently" stumbled onto what "Larry Krohn and Cesar Millan" do all the time. Cept I discovered it the hard way by accident ... walk your dog and build a bond of trust ... who knew??? It is ... a Bond ... apparently "A thing" ... who knew.
> 
> I don't really know any dog people locally, so most likely ... the minimal effort route is the norm here. Both my neighbors and my other friend and her herder dogs ... for example.
> 
> *But I suppose when one does have the opportunity to communicate with other dog people as we do here. You'd think "we" get a bit beyond the well your way sucks and this is why bit. I've been "trying" to do a bit less of that ... not always successfully I suppose???*
> 
> I'm not pointing to others ... just saying.



I think this is a very important statement. We have a lot of people who are very good at what they do, and yet they use different methods. And most are willing to change to fit the dog in front of them. There is no one method fits all dogs.


----------



## Chip18

Deb said:


> I think this is a very important statement. We have a lot of people who are very good at what they do, and yet they use different methods. And most are willing to change to fit the dog in front of them. There is no one method fits all dogs.


Hey ... "work, with the dog in front of you is one of my quotes" ... also. Learned that one the hard way. 

However ... it's important to remember ... speaking for myself at any rate, just because one gives good advise ... does not mean they always ... follow it. Rocky and I suffered our first beat down on that one ... carry a "Walking Stick." Sat on that one for years ... still ... I reserve my right to be a "tool" ... as required. Don't want to be to reasonable ... kinda my thing.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Blitzkrieg1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No a trial isnt functional obedience.. A trial is essentially a chain of tricks that you string together in an environment in which your dog has been conditioned to believe a reward exists.
> Post video..it's easy in this day and age.
> 
> The video that was shared earlier of Don Sullivan with the black lab pup is an example of functional obedience.
> 
> He trained the pup with a choke by the way.
> 
> At the end of the day it's important to be honest. Many people have different standards of training and reliability that they consider acceptable.
> For me it's a dog that I can take any place off leash have him come, heel, sit, down and place when he is told.
> This should take no longer then a few weeks to fully train and be applicable to any breed or type of dog.
> 
> If your standard is different perhaps another type of system is best for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of video, I noticed that there was food or toys being used in I think all of your videos that I clicked on? So I guess I am a little confused as to why you are asking me to prove I can walk my dog somewhere off a leash without food or toys?
> 
> Yes I would say my standard is different than your standard, specifically because I don't apply a time frame that says "a, b, c will happen in x amount of time."
> 
> I guess when you get right down to it you could call anything you train a dog to do a trick. Even service dog tasks. Though those tricks have mighty important uses. Do do I sense disdain from you about "tricks" and "trialing"...do you think this is pointless performance of tricks, @Blizkrieg1. Does trialing hold any value to you?
> 
> So I am thinking to myself, I had my dog at run thrus the other night working offleash in a very small area surrounded by other dogs, all the reactive nasty dogs were on one end of the ring and most of them blew at her as we passed by, and she continued to do her thing. She knocked over a sign and I stopped to fix it and was kneeling down with my back to her paying her absolutely no attention at all and when I was done there she was waiting for me, never took her eyes off me. Honestly, that's plenty functional enough for me.
> 
> Heck I have pottied her at gas stations on road trips with no leash.
> 
> So, okay...where am I legally allowed to walk my dog through a busy area with no leash. I even went so far as to google city ordinances for the towns near me and I haven't been able to find it. I have sneakily worked my younger dog off leash in TSC before not knowing for sure if I was breaking rules or not so it was short and well supervised. So that's all the energy or time I have for investigating how I could prove to you that I can walk, sit, stay a dog offleash...
> 
> Another thing I will say is that walking through stores or town or wherever off a leash is not a standard I hold mine or anyone else's dogs to because most places it just isn't smart or legal to do that and I don't think I know anyone who just doesn't use a leash (except for people who all walk offleash up and down my road but this is a dirt country road and there is no leash law here)
> 
> Here is a standard I hold my dogs to and I think everyone should, that I could call them back to me under any circumstances, anywhere, any time. If I tell them to stay in an open doorway they will.
> 
> About that standard, if my choice was between taking a dog somewhere on a leash, or using training techniques that I believe are unfair to the dog or unnecessarily harsh, I'd just use a leash. That's a no brainer for me. Perhaps I can get that dog to do all those things offleash in two months (an arbitrary number) instead of two weeks, but by training in a way that I feel is more fair to the dog, that is what I would do. I think my young dog is a good example of that now. His next rally trial will be offleash because he's finished the on leash title. Well, venue rules state the dogs have to be on leash at all times except during higher level runs so he has no practice being offleash at a rally trial. So, my plan is to take him to run thru's at different facilities to be sure he is ready before he is entered. It's generalizing. Can you do all these things I've taught you to do under these new different circumstances. IF not we'll practice till we can. I don't think it will be a problem for him because in every situation I can think of he is the same on leash or off. I have taken him in the dog park when it was empty and done obedience routines offleash (everywhere else at that park has leash laws and stiff fines) It smells like a thousand other dogs and he went to work anyway. If he's never had an opportunity to practice off leash at a rally trial, I don't think it would be fair to punish him for not performing perfectly the first time he is offleash, we just need to practice and generalize a little more.
> 
> When he broke stays at group class it was because a nasty dog near him had snarked at him for no reason and he didn't want to be alone with that dog. He wanted to come to me. I did not punish him for that. So I have more work to do on long stays from across the room. That's fine. I'm not going to punish him for coming to me because a nasty dog is making him feel uncomfortable, even if it means it takes us longer to get a long stay.
> 
> @Blizkrieg1 I'd still like to know what you meant about the service dog who just walks next to the person?
> 
> And I couldn't agree more with what you said, at the end of the day, it's important to be honest.
Click to expand...

Well I train in IPO and run a small training club..so..you can figure that one out on your own.
I use food and toys for various parts of my training they are tools with limitations from a functional standpoint for most dogs but they have their uses.

There are a ton of videos on my channel where I don't use food or toys..you can easily find them.


----------



## Chip18

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> There are a ton of videos on my channel where I don't use food or toys..you can easily find them.


Hm ... Ok I get K9-1.com ...is that it???


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Somehow I am able to take numerous videos of numerous places. Its not dangerous nor does law enforcement hassle you if you have actual control over your dog. 

Stories are nice, everyone on here has them but show the work.

SDs as I have already said are generally specifically picked for being super calm low energy type dogs so half the "training" that occurs are simply a function of genetics. 
There are many service dogs that are simply just a pet with a vest that hangs out with the handler. Sure they supposedly do a bunch of fun little tasks but in reality in many cases the behaviours are not reliable and hence not functional.
That is what I was referring to. 

Honesty is important, and the reality is treats and toys with small corrections here or there wont get 99% of dogs to be reliable in any reasonable amount of time. The reality is if you use a system similar to Don's you can get the vast majority of dogs fully trained and reliable in 3 to 4 weeks...and yes that includes puppies.
The reality is many people waste tons of time on ineffective and pointlessly roundabout methods to make a result that could easily have been achieved in a fraction of the time. They train around issues instead of through them. In many cases its because they get bad advice/info from professionals or the internet.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Before people blow their stacks..yes there are also many service dogs that do actually preform their functions .


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## Blitzkrieg1

Chip18 said:


> Blitzkrieg1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are a ton of videos on my channel where I don't use food or toys..you can easily find them.
> 
> 
> 
> Hm ... Ok I get K9-1.com ...is that it???
Click to expand...

Sorry no business promo allowed .


----------



## Deb

_SDs as I have already said are generally specifically picked for being super calm low energy type dogs so half the "training" that occurs are simply a function of genetics. 
There are many service dogs that are simply just a pet with a vest that hangs out with the handler. Sure they supposedly do a bunch of fun little tasks but in reality in many cases the behaviours are not reliable and hence not functional.
That is what I was referring to._ 


Obviously you have no understanding of what a service dog does or what we are looking for in picking one. The last three I picked were two very active bird dog mixes that super calm low activity level is the furthest descriptions that would describe them. The GSD I picked out is also far from super calm low energy. They were chosen to be matched to people who are very active and a super calm low activity level dog would never have been a good match. All three are doing fantastic in their training and their people love them.


They 'supposedly do a bunch of fun little tasks'? Somehow I don't think the people who have seizure alert dogs or diabetic alert dog consider what their dog does for them as a 'fun little task'. Nor the other specialized tasks service dogs do for their owners. I am floored by your callousness and disregard for those with a disability.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Don't be ridiculous. Your equating my questioning of unbalanced training methodology to looking down on the disabled?

Like the SAR industry the service dog industry has dogs and trainers that don't really know what they are doing. Doesn't make lost people any less in need of finding or disabled people any less in need of a service dog.

Diabetic alert is a modified form of detection work. You can teach an 8 week old pup to hit on odor. Hardly what this topic is about.

I would love to see video of these high energy dogs trained with just positive methods just heeling next to their handlers in a busy area. I'm legitimately curious.


----------



## Deb

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Don't be ridiculous. Your equating my questioning of unbalanced training methodology to looking down on the disabled?
> 
> Like the SAR industry the service dog industry has dogs and trainers that don't really know what they are doing. Doesn't make lost people any less in need of finding or disabled people any less in need of a service dog.
> 
> Diabetic alert is a modified form of detection work. You can teach an 8 week old pup to hit on odor. Hardly what this topic is about.
> 
> I would love to see video of these high energy dogs trained with just positive methods just heeling next to their handlers in a busy area. I'm legitimately curious.



Back peddling by attacking does not negate your remark. If you're unable to train a dog with positive methods to heel through a busy area that's fine. But don't assume others cannot. And not every dog can be trained as a diabetic alert dog. I will not argue with you, not worth my time. Ended.


----------



## Chip18

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Sorry no business promo allowed .


LOL ... no sweat found it. Fairly obvious actually.


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## dogma13

Blitzkrieg I don't see any videos on your channel of off leash work in busy areas.You also claim expertise in SAR and service dog training now?Sorry I just can't take you seriously.
@Nurse Bishop sorry for going off topic on your threadMy only caveat with the DS system was not with the results obtained,it was with what sounded like the dog is "under orders" constantly.No down time to relax and enjoy being a dog.I'm hoping that's a misperception on my part.You are proud of your dog's intelligence and your training prowess and rightly so!I'm hoping to read a thread some day about Inga and you just hiking,swimming,getting muddy and having a wonderful day together


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## LuvShepherds

Blitzkreig, how long have you been training dogs professionally from puppyhood to adulthood? How many? How many service dogs? I'm curious why you are attacking someone with far more years of training experience than you have in that area in such a condescending way. Everyone is aware that the service dog industry has been plagued with imposters, but you can't just paint everyone with a broad brush. Maybe you should stick to areas where you have personal experience and useful information to offer instead of offending those who do.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Gotta say two things. #1, there are three types of dogs that come to mind that save lives: police k9s, SAR dogs, and service dogs. Maybe something I am forgetting. Those are NOT silly little tasks or tricks. Some people may not understand what some service dogs really do, but they save and change lives every single day. Saying otherwise or acting like training a diabetic alert dog is no big deal and an 8 week old puppy could do it is an insult to service dogs and their anglers everywhere. But I am sure SD'S by Warren Retrievers is applauding. 

#2 I think I got the bleeping video. I don't know if it will count by the ever changing standards. But they mentioned at the trial I am at that we could let our dogs offleash. So I walked around in the parking lot off a leash around people and other dogs. Did a sent to target, a stay, a recall. This is my dog with zero compulsion training. I don't know how to upload a video on here so i'll have to mess with it later. 

I did some of it on the grass off to the side because I didn't want to down her in the mud since she has to be back in the ring in a few minutes


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## Thecowboysgirl

Oh, and another thing about SD'S and compulsion training. An excellent service dog trainer explained to me that service dogs need to have their ability and willingness to perform intelligent disobedience perserved. Too much punishment will create a dog who DOES "fear the consequences" as previously mentioned, and this dog may not do its intelligent disobedience when it counts.


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## Muskeg

Just circling back to Don Sullivan- I had some time and just watched this introduction video- I have to say, I like what he has to say. Might be worth checking out, for people following this thread, so you can know what the OP was discussing from the horse's mouth.
 01 Training Philosophy


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## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Oh, and another thing about SD'S and compulsion training. An excellent service dog trainer explained to me that service dogs need to have their ability and willingness to perform intelligent disobedience perserved. Too much punishment will create a dog who DOES "fear the consequences" as previously mentioned, and this dog may not do its intelligent disobedience when it counts.


Rocky is hardly a Service Dog ... just a pet but he did do the "willingness to perform intelligent disobedience" thing ... a few times.

I unintendedly put him in a bad situation. In place out of sight and he is a known "toddler" unfriendly dog (proven under controlled circumstances) but I don't have kids so ... no big deal. But ... crap happens and when it did ... "Rocky" got approached by a toddler, in an out of site "Place." Unexpected by me a "toddler" showed up?? Should have been no big deal. Grandma was there also and Rocky was outside in "place.". No big deal Grandma was on hand. Grandma fell asleep and toddler "escaped out back!!" 


Most likely "Rocky's" first instinct was to look for dad??? No dad to be found and the 'toddler" is approaching ... not suppose to bite?? Perhaps ... I'll walk away?? Which is what he did. And needless to say ... I'm thrilled he did. 

But he'd done it before, when I slipped on the ice while defending him from charging strays. Rocky was like oh ... daddy down??? I'd not seen this before??? Perhaps I should make my presence known ... now! He stepped up and it ... worked out fine. I'd not "specifically trained" willingness to perform intelligent disobedience ... it's just something innate in him. 

When I go round and round with my old school GSD client, on whether or not "Boxers" are just useless or stupid?? He never challenges me on whether or not I thought a "Boxer" could have done those things??? So ... I suppose I get to skate.  

But mostly ... willingness to perform, intelligent disobedience ... falls under ... "Breed Characteristics" ... don't know ... but I've seen it.


----------



## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> Just circling back to Don Sullivan- I had some time and just watched this introduction video- I have to say, I like what he has to say. Might be worth checking out, for people following this thread, so you can know what the OP was discussing from the horse's mouth.
> 01 Training Philosophy


 Link is not working??? Is it just me???


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## Muskeg

Nope, not just you... huh. I'll try again...


----------



## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> Nope, not just you... huh. I'll try again...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jodq3bTuTM


OK that one worked! That is not the one I saw originally but ... yes what he stated I have no disagreement with. 

Without going into a rather long diatribe ... my issues with "Rocky" were based on ... I'll say ... not quite enough "respect??"He was more like OK ... your in charge of "people" I got no problem with that. But this "Bandog" pack mate ... yeah ... he's an issue but you know ... you just stay out of the way and I got this!!! That ... was not working out so well for me!

Rocky won that one account on account of "Gunther" passed due to unrelated issues following the last attack. But then came people issues??? Long story short ... that was the best thing that could have happened for us! 

Pay back for me ... this crap "H/A" shall not stand! We got it done and "Don's" philosophy ... regards of whatever his specific methods are ... though I do recall the muzzle. Were at the core of what I did.


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## Muskeg

Yup, I can't disagree with much in his basic approach. Compared to the vast majority of trainers out there, in internet world, he's putting out some solid information.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Don't be ridiculous. Your equating my questioning of unbalanced training methodology to looking down on the disabled?
> 
> Like the SAR industry the service dog industry has dogs and trainers that don't really know what they are doing. Doesn't make lost people any less in need of finding or disabled people any less in need of a service dog.
> 
> Diabetic alert is a modified form of detection work. You can teach an 8 week old pup to hit on odor. Hardly what this topic is about.
> 
> I would love to see video of these high energy dogs trained with just positive methods just heeling next to their handlers in a busy area. I'm legitimately curious.


My working like GSD, who I have many times said had more energy than I needed her to have for her job, was trained to be a service dog by me under the supervision of two different pure positive (and I mean REALLY positive) trainers who were mentoring me.

She worked reliably all over the country, she performed complex tasks, her manners were impeccable, and she is retired now from an outstanding career. She has never had a prong collar or a slip collar on in her life. She never received a correction related to service work or public access manners other than me saying "leave it"

We are busy debating something I kind of think it pointless because I have longsince abandoned the pure positive methodology in most cases. What I objected to at the beginning of this thread, and what I *think* some other people were objecting to, was the use of compulsion to teach behaviors, specifically when applied across the board to all dogs without consideration for who they are individually, the use of compulsion to the point that it resulted in snarling, nipping, yelping, and where it was my impression from reading particularly your post Blitzkrieg that this was par for the course, most dogs would do this. Or maybe you said many dogs would do this. And you said if I am not mistaken that it was akin to a kid pitching a fit because they didn't get their candy, which I think is a highly inaccurate metaphor. More like a kid saying "please don't spank me"

I object to the philosophy of applying corrections to a dog that doesn't know what's expected of them. That's all I was ever trying to say. I object to any trainer who would say to put a muzzle and a harsher training collar on a puppy to teach it a "down". This is something I simply would not do, and I would not take training advice from someone who said to do that. 

So at a certain point I feel we did kind of go off the rails with this "can you get a dog to walk offleash somewhere and video it" challenge. I guess my younger dog would not count because he has used a prong collar? He has had leash corrections. If I had to guess his percentage of rewards to corrections would be 90/10. Maybe less than 10%


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## Chip18

Aww well ... most likely ... when "muzzles" get thrown into the mix ... one is entering ...into "Bubble Dog" territory??? In my experiance/definition "a dog that needs to be muzzled" for a time to be safe in public. 

That ... can be really, really ... tough. Most likely a "former Bubble dog" could do just fine as a "Service Dog??" As all "some" require ... is an owner who is on, hand to stay on task?? As there "primarily" requirement would be ... what does my handler need?? But finding that attribute in an individual "Bubble dog" ... is most likely a pretty tough task??? Much easier to simply start with a dog that has no people issues. I have no idea, as I don't "service dogs." Just random my thoughts, I suppose.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

As for the Don Sullivan video, he says:

My black lab Izzy started training at 9 weeks and in three weeks was responding to all commands offleash and in full distraction.

Not because he was an easy puppy. He was an incredicly aggressive and dominant puppy. He resisted me intensely for about 4 days. Then he gave in and realized that it was to his benefit to obey

------I assume this is true. It has been proven possible in laboratory experiments. It's called learned helplessness. 

"You can't teach an old dog new tricks" This is because they have learned that they are the pack leader, and are not willing to give up that position to anyone. This gives the impression that they can't learn new things but in fact, they are not willing to learn.

------I couldn't disagree more. Dogs are habitual learners and they do what they have habitually done. If what they do causes pleasure or enjoyment, they will repeat it. If it causes pain, fear, discomfort, ect, they will avoid it. That's all. Old dogs are "set in their ways" just like people. With many repetitions in may be more difficult to change the responses for the same reason that good training sticks. Not because they think they are the pack leader and aren't giving up their position on the throne.

He says that a dog does not come when called because it does not respect the owner

-------I disagree again, basically for the same reason as above. People don't know what they are doing. They call a dog, catch it, take it from something fun and stick it somewhere not fun. What did the dog learn? A dog who has never been allowed offleash escapes and runs about having the time of its life and has the most fun it has ever had. Humans in pursuit. The dog learned to try not to be caught and to try to bolt out the door (I have owned this particular dog) none of this is because the dog doesn't respect the owner. It's because the dog's needs aren't being met, and then when it finally escapes and gets a good run that was the most rewarding thing that has ever happened. That's why rewards work so well in training. 

I am not disputing that this training works. It just isn't a method I feel comfortable with. When I watch the videos I can see the dogs using stress behaviors and lowering themselves into downs cautiously. Meh. I don't want my dogs to respond to me like that. I'd honestly rather not have the robot precision at whatever speed if it comes with my dog licking and giving me side eye while lowering themselves into a down. 

My dogs are plenty obedient enough, I am totally happy with them...and this is just not the only way to train a dog. You can absolutely get a very reliable dog with a system that is mostly rewards with fair corrections for deliberate disobedience. It does happen. And it should be corrected. But an untrained dog is an untrained dog, not a disobedient one.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Okay I thought some more and the learned helplessness experiments waited to give the dog the choice until they had stopped trying to avoid the shock, and I don't know how the Don Sullivan system progresses, at some point do the dogs get a chance to comply before the correction to choose to comply to avoid it, so I guess it's a little different. But not different enough for me, especially on a 9 week old puppy.

And something else: this idea that the dogs disrespect us and want to take over, and willfully disobey, I feel like all of that just makes an impression that isn't true and influences our attitude and probably our corrections toward the dog.

For instance, my teenagers disrespected me sometimes, for real. And it made me mad. And I don't think good dog training happens when you're mad or offended, not much good anything happens when you're mad or offended, I think

I guess I just feel like when people look at what their dogs are doing as a product of the whole operant conditioning system, not just a faulty dominance hierarchy, they are more likely to be fair and compassionate about how they choose to respond. This isn't to say dogs don't need boundaries and structure and discipline because they absolutely do. But all of that can be implemented with fairness and compassion in mind, and I think it should be.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Deb said:


> Blitzkrieg1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't be ridiculous. Your equating my questioning of unbalanced training methodology to looking down on the disabled?
> 
> Like the SAR industry the service dog industry has dogs and trainers that don't really know what they are doing. Doesn't make lost people any less in need of finding or disabled people any less in need of a service dog.
> 
> Diabetic alert is a modified form of detection work. You can teach an 8 week old pup to hit on odor. Hardly what this topic is about.
> 
> I would love to see video of these high energy dogs trained with just positive methods just heeling next to their handlers in a busy area. I'm legitimately curious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back peddling by attacking does not negate your remark. If you're unable to train a dog with positive methods to heel through a busy area that's fine. But don't assume others cannot. And not every dog can be trained as a diabetic alert dog. I will not argue with you, not worth my time. Ended.
Click to expand...

Back peddling? Attacking? When?

We already established that SDs are specifically selected for inherent traits that make training them easier..and yes if you used positive punishment more dogs would be able to do it. 
Yes you can teach an 8 week old puppy to hit on odor. A diabetic alert dog is simply a detection dog with an active alert. It's not rocket science. Sure they are important but that some not really what this thread is about.

It's always funny to me when treat trainers resort to the usual insinuation that they can make results you cannot with food yet they never have any proof..

Please show video of your training.

The funny thing is I use a ton of food and toys in my training for sport. I know the limitations of those tools from a functional standpoint. That's why I comment on them the way I do.

People like to make up stories about all the supposed results they make with just positive re enforcement yet in the end there is never proof.

Your just coming to the conclusion that this forum is for entertainment? It's not "worth" my time either. I charge for my time..y'all get the free version of me on here .

@dogma my day has been ruined by your remarks. Or perhaps thats just indigestion from too many pancakes..hard to say.
Since you are so interested in my bio it's on my website as well as more importantly video of dogs I train .

Don't worry cowgirl perhaps I'll take a cute video just for you guys since what I have up isn't busy enough for you...lol.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Back peddling? Attacking? When?
> 
> We already established that SDs are specifically selected for inherent traits that make training them easier..and yes if you used positive punishment more dogs would be able to do it.
> Yes you can teach an 8 week old puppy to hit on odor. A diabetic alert dog is simply a detection dog with an active alert. It's not rocket science. Sure they are important but that some not really what this thread is about.
> 
> It's always funny to me when treat trainers resort to the usual insinuation that they can make results you cannot with food yet they never have any proof..
> 
> Please show video of your training.
> 
> The funny thing is I use a ton of food and toys in my training for sport. I know the limitations of those tools from a functional standpoint. That's why I comment on them the way I do.
> 
> People like to make up stories about all the supposed results they make with just positive re enforcement yet in the end there is never proof.
> 
> Your just coming to the conclusion that this forum is for entertainment? It's not "worth" my time either. I charge for my time..y'all get the free version of me on here .
> 
> @dogma my day has been ruined by your remarks. Or perhaps thats just indigestion from too many pancakes..hard to say.
> Since you are so interested in my bio it's on my website as well as more importantly video of dogs I train .
> 
> Don't worry cowgirl perhaps I'll take a cute video just for you guys since what I have up isn't busy enough for you...lol.


I don't know what kind of cute video you think I want but I'm good thanks.


----------



## Nurse Bishop

Maybe I can upload these pictures one at a time. Give me a minute. But here is what I had to say. I will try up loading on at a time. My camera take huge pictures, and that is the problem.

Dogma wanted to see Inga just playing and hanging out :smile2: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pictures-pictures-pictures/676402-canis-aquaticus-2.html

Don Sullivan's training goal is for the dog to be well mannered and to have a good life off leash as much as possible. But NIFIF, I think thats the abbreviation. 

Here are some pictures I took yesterday of Inga at a sit stay and waiting for her next command an eighth of a mile away. She can be a quarter mile away but cannot be seen in the picture. And here she is recalled and running in at top speed. This is great exercise for a dog. I measured her stride like you do with horses, its thirteen feet. And she is going past baby calves and not crittering. She was taught the NO and veer off but this was reinforced with the ecollar .

Inga is a year old and knows thirty commands. It took a lot of time and attention but but as per Don Johnson no treats were ever used. Inga works for praise. Not overboard praise, just enough that she acknowledges it by licking her lips, just like a horse does when in training. It says I get it. She is not motivated much by play either. A reward to Inga is the Lets Go. That means lets go, walk with me and run around, smell things, dig up gophers and just be a dog at liberty and under control, like DonSullivan had hoped.


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## Nurse Bishop

Ah heck. What the pics show is Inga in a sit stay on a dirt road and further and farther in the distance untill she is a speck on the horizen, then comm/ing back on recall. The others are Inga sitting on a tree stump, and again, just two ears barely perceptable on the sky line.


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## Chip18

The first link worked ... but the other one is not there???


----------



## Chip18

Thecowboysgirl said:


> And something else: this idea that the dogs disrespect us and want to take over, and willfully disobey, I feel like all of that just makes an impression that isn't true and influences our attitude and probably our corrections toward the dog.
> 
> For instance, my teenagers disrespected me sometimes, for real. And it made me mad. And I don't think good dog training happens when you're mad or offended, not much good anything happens when you're mad or offended, I think
> 
> I guess I just feel like when people look at what their dogs are doing as a product of the whole operant conditioning system, not just a faulty dominance hierarchy, they are more likely to be fair and compassionate about how they choose to respond. This isn't to say dogs don't need boundaries and structure and discipline because they absolutely do. But all of that can be implemented with fairness and compassion in mind, and I think it should be.


Lack of respect and lack of a bond ... similar but different. You can't hammer either into a dog?? But typically once a "Bond" is formed ... respect from the dog follows. Once that happens ... everything else is easier.


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## Blitzkrieg1

I'll leave it at this. 
Don's system is an excellent one because it's simple, fast and clear to the dog.
People want to talk about compassion, love, bond etc as an excuse for why they cannot make the same results. 

Guess what dogs love? Freedom to explore the world and doing things with their handler.
This type of program facilitates that quickly for most dogs.

People want to talk "bond" as if the dog will be obedient simply because he loves you. 
A huge part of the dog handler relationship is RESPECT. This comes from clarity in your training and holding the dog accountable for his behaviour. Respect is not earned by being a treat / toy dispenser or being excessively permissive.
All my clients have dogs that love them..sadly that's simply not enough.

Stop postulating about supposed side effects and what ifs of this training if you have not done it with multiple dogs successfully. The reality is you don't know and you never will unless you get off the keyboard and do it.

This video with a young female highlights what I'm talking about.

https://youtu.be/ryM4KIaDqqo


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## Thecowboysgirl

I'll be totally honest, that dog does not look like she is loving walking down that city street with you. Ears pinned back the whole time except when you recall her and she thinks she might get a reward.

Is she afraid of traffic? Or is that ear carriage just normal for her when she isn't playing?


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## Blitzkrieg1

lol..I'm done. Have at it .


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## Chip18

Bond and respect??? Ding Ding ... very Boxer like. I've noticed something different ... so off on a tangent I go!  

Most likely ... for those that luv a given breed the "Bond" thing is not really anything to think about??? kinda a given perhaps?? This is the "breed of dog" I wanted ... this is the "breed of dog" I got kind of thing. The "bond" thing is a given under those circumstances ... I suppose?? And respect is "assumed" also perhaps??

I don't know?? But I do know that I had a disconnect with Rocky. We had neither and then I got one first and then the other happened. I luv'd my Bully's out the gate ... nothing to think about. 

However with my first and as it happened OS WL GSD he was just a big furry dog with a pointy face ... nothing more nothing less. I was not "expecting uh ... "issues??" But I got them in spades!! And "Larry Khron's" clip on "Formal Obedience" not being a solution for behavioural issues ... was not news to me. Been there done that and got the stitches so yes ... I concur. 

Rocky and I were missing mutual "Respect" and after a belly full of "Rocky's" crap ... I'd had enough (Pack Fights!) And then the people crap ... but that crap ... will not stand! I pretty much cut off the affection, cut of the free roaming in the house. I will tell you what to do and you will do it! I set the rules you obey! He got that and with a much clearer understanding of what was expected ... we had no more issues! I never once had to correct him for "inappropriate behaviour" towards people. I did my job and kept people out of his face, showed him what I wanted ... he got that and apparently he changed and I did not notice as ... I did not care! Not being a "PIA" was good enough! 

As far as I was concerned ... "Rocky" was 116 lb obligation that would be my cross to bear for the next decade because I messed up! I should have gotten a another Boxer but ... it is what is so ... no "Bond" there! I can carry a grudge for a long long time and by attacking Gunther ... Rocky was on crap list! Marilyn said ... I have to let it go or Rocky has to go! I still remember that day ... becasue "letting it go" was actually a physical effort. But I did it, with a very deep sight ... "I let it go!" 

For the people thing ... well I did as I said "showed him what I wanted ... do nothing" ...he complied ... problem solved ... in retrospect, no big deal. But hardly the makings of a "Bond "between he and I??? No most likely ... that day we got charged by those two strays, was the best thing that could have ever happened for us. I defended him by putting him behind me and facing those dogs ... because that is simply what I do. 

What I was not expecting was to slip and land on my back??? I was then expecting to have to deal with the last dog while on my back!! But unexpected and unbid ... "Rocky now made his presence known most likely he thought ... hmm I've not seen this before??? A loud roar and nothing but white fangs was all I saw as Rocky stepped across me ... WTH???? My still having the leash in hand is the only thing that kept Rocky off that last dog. That last dog ... then just "flat disappeared???" In that momnet ... "Rocky" was no longer my obligation and cross to bear ... he was now my dog! Our "Bond" and mutual "Respect" were hard fought and hard earned. Those are not terms I just throw out there ... they mean something. 

Now ... when I get my next "Boxer" a girl, it will most likely be back to business as usual ... who's a cute girl, who's a cute girl ... you are ... look at that face.


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## Chip18

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> lol..I'm done. Have at it .


Aww no sweat ... I feel like your girl, when I'm in the big city! Hey there's crap out here that could kill you?? But she did as expected and did as she was trained. Most likely she'd not be a good service dog candidate but that's not her job.


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## Nurse Bishop

Wow Chip. Rocky sounds like an amazing GSD. He defended you. I bet the onlooking police were impressed . Was this the time when you were across from the police station?

I wish Blitzkrieg would come back to this thread. One thing Don Sullivan says is its about pack order. Lack thereof is the root of many problems. Inga was the dominant in her litter. She still tries some dominance ploys. Going out the door first for instance. I have heard that dominant by nature dogs will always be like this. It started with crowding the door. Now she has to sit in the middle of the room before being released.


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## Blitzkrieg1

Just to be clear on something.
She isn't scared of traffic..she carries her ears like that unless she is excited..which is kind of the point. 
Wouldn't be keeping her if she was environmentally unsure.

Ironically she would make a great service dog and could do dual purpose work for many depts.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Is it normal for a well adjust malinois to carry their ears like that all regularly? None of my GSDs do. Would love to know from mal people.


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## carmspack

dog looks inhibited --- probably had some force training from wherever she/he was imported from
keeps looking over to the left ?

on the field , is he/she wearing an e-collar


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## Thecowboysgirl

Okay well here is one little thing....a pic I took at a seminar last year. My dog is in the middle, the only GSD in the pic, and also the only one not wearing an e collar or tied.

We all stepped outside to watch a demonstration and these dogs were left on their "place"s inside. These dogs had never met prior to the seminar and never actually met during the seminar. So there is my dog laying on her spot just feet away from three or four strange dogs not breaking her position and she has never been trained on stay or place with any compulsion
@Nurse Bishop, I would encourage you to do more research into the pack hierarchy theory and how it applies to dog training. Also, you stated earlier that when your praise your dog she licks her lips. Sometimes this can mean that the dog is stressed, fearful, or trying to appease the owner. Sometimes the praise we give isn't reinforcing to the dog and that's no criticism of you, I do it too. I will ruffle my male dog's head and he doesn't care for it. And I have to remind myself, that's not reinforcing for him it's just a thing I do without thinking sometimes when I am praising him, but if I want my praise to be truly rewarding I have to look at the dog and see what he tells me he thinks of it. Because I enjoy ruffling the top of his head doesn't mean that's a good way to praise him--because HE doesn't enjoy it.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I'll leave it at this.
> Don's system is an excellent one because it's simple, fast and clear to the dog.
> People want to talk about compassion, love, bond etc as an excuse for why they cannot make the same results.
> 
> Guess what dogs love? Freedom to explore the world and doing things with their handler.
> This type of program facilitates that quickly for most dogs.
> 
> People want to talk "bond" as if the dog will be obedient simply because he loves you.
> A huge part of the dog handler relationship is RESPECT. This comes from clarity in your training and holding the dog accountable for his behaviour. Respect is not earned by being a treat / toy dispenser or being excessively permissive.
> All my clients have dogs that love them..sadly that's simply not enough.
> 
> Stop postulating about supposed side effects and what ifs of this training if you have not done it with multiple dogs successfully. The reality is you don't know and you never will unless you get off the keyboard and do it.
> 
> This video with a young female highlights what I'm talking about.
> 
> https://youtu.be/ryM4KIaDqqo


Okay so, again, I'm not going to go do any type of training I don't need or believe in. 

Blitzkrieg said : "A huge part of the dog handler relationship is RESPECT. This comes from clarity in your training and holding the dog accountable for his behaviour. " And I couldn't agree more. I think I said that a couple pages ago on this thread. To me whether you lay your foundation with compulsion from the get go or you lay your foundation with rewards only, you will need to b clear, and hold the dog accountable. And I think this is one of the biggest myths of all, that people who don't use a lot of compulsion aren't holding their dogs accountable. There are plenty of ways to hold a dog accountable without straight up positive punishment.

Rewards do not mean you are a permissive trainer or handler, obviously you know that because you use food and toy rewards, Blitzkrieg. 

So, my position once and for all is that it is possible to get very reliable results from a dog who is not trained mostly with compulsion. I do think most dogs will need some form of correction at some point for willful disobedience. I have said that from the get go. 

I will never apologize for wanting to approach dog training with as much compassion and fairness as possible. Some dogs, some situations, call for more compulsion and less rewards, and as always I try to look at the individual dog and what is genuinely in their best interest right this minute, and in the long term.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I will never apologize for wanting to approach dog training with as much compassion and fairness as possible. Some dogs, some situations, call for more compulsion and less rewards, and as always I try to look at the individual dog and what is genuinely in their best interest right this minute, and in the long term.


Very well said.


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## carmspack

disposition while dog walking on street ---

the dog never got acknowledgment or reward !!

it does not have to be lavish - but there is no connection 

at the end of the youtubey 



it looks like a e-collar was pulled out of the pocket 

so maybe a rehearsal before ? 
why show it ?

no exchange between dog and handler - maybe this is why the dog appears the way he does - no feedback

on the field - dog wearing e-collar?

different expression because the dog is connected to and rewarded with his / her tug-ball

perform = toy = equals reward = happy dog 

no personal exchange between dog and handler -


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## Chip18

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I don't actually agree with Don's interpretation of pack structure and dominance influencing the dog to the extent it does. That was all the rage back then but it just a matter of making consequences and training through protest behaviors or what he interprets as dominance.
> That's why what he does works.


Hmm I'll have to dig into this more??? 

But my default postion "now" is proper management in the home. If one persist in "stacking on WL and Bully breeds to there household ... one best have there crap together ... "apparently" ... lesson learned.


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## carmspack

Castlemaid said:


> With horses, a horse licking its lips, or sticking his tongue out, is a sign of relaxation.
> 
> In dogs, it is a calming signal - the dog is stressed and tries to appease the source of its stress (person or other dog).
> 
> There are some excellent books out there that go over dog body language and calming signals -


yes , they start chewing as if they have gum in their mouths , the lips get heavy and droopy and they lick - relaxed, learned something and are showing they are okay with things , with life


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## Nurse Bishop

Yea yea the equine two brain thing. Women have six brains because of our giant corpus callosum. Where is the best berry patch, where are the children, who is mating with who, what are those other ladies saying, and how do I really feel about this, you know, - things that led to survival. Men have a one track mind.  
How do I get a spear into that antelope?

Here are those pictures of Inga
Here she is after told sit by a hand signal.
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=414657&stc=1&d=1490553567


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## Nurse Bishop

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=414665&stc=1&d=1490553766


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## Nurse Bishop

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=414673&stc=1&d=1490553832
That speck on the horizen of the road is her.


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## Nurse Bishop

Here she is coming in recalled to heel. Stride length thirteen feet.


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## Nurse Bishop

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=414697&stc=1&d=1490554183


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## Nurse Bishop

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=414705&stc=1&d=1490554260
Those are her ears on the skyline. She sit stays a quarter mile away but can't be seen in the pictures. Shes a happy, joyful dog eager to please and has a good life. Thank you DS and sportdog.


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## Chip18

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Now I really am done. At the end of the day you either make results or excuses. Have fun.


Aw don't be like that. If you don't go with the flow ... as it were ... you gotta expect "blowback???" 

We don't all agree, we don't all train the same way but for those of us that are "effective" ... there is going to be overlap. 

And personally ... I'm luving the Battle of the MAl's ... very reminist of the American Line vs Euro Boxers debate ... cept there it's our dogs "American Line" are "Goofy" then your dogs! 

Cept in "Mal" world it seems to be whose dogs are calmer??? It's quite interesting. I think it's safe to safe that no "Mal" is a good dog for the laid back and lazy. That seems like a fairly uncontroversial statement???


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## voodoolamb

Here is a short clip of my dog's functional recall. 






Including my stupid silly praise at the end :grin2:

His recall is reliable and has been tested in high stakes situations. He can easily be called off of prey in mid chase. It happens fairly frequently. 

I think his body language speaks volumes to his mindset in this short clip. I'm very pleased with his general attitude and believe that he and I have a good working partnership. 

His recall has been trained using purely positive methods. No e collar. No long line. A few treats, his favorite toy and lots of reinforcement. 

I am able to allow him off leash in a safe way. That was the goal and we got there.


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## Nurse Bishop

Inga gets treats and she doesn't have to do anything. I don't even give her the treats. She 'finds' them on the floor or in her bowl. As soon as dinner is served she goes into her kennel without being told. I didn't train her for that either. Its nice to have a dog that doesn't beg or watch every forkful you take.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Muskeg said:


> Cowboy- I totally agree that dog is super twitchy and that PPD demonstration in the park is almost laughable but not funny, because it could be serious stuff. Malinois are twitchy and high strung (again, why they don't make the best service dogs). It's what they are, some more than others, partly training, partly genetics.
> 
> I took my 5 month old malinois out for a walk this morning, with my chill-ax 9 year old husky. We passed a few sugar houses and crowds and the malinois just wanted to stop and look, full alert mode. The husky is like... whatevs. It's a malinois thing. Alert, reactive, somewhat suspicious. Super into the handler's state of mind. This pup is social with people and other dogs but she is malinois.
> 
> So far, of the three videos, Ivan's dog is the highest quality- whether genetics, handler, trainer, I can't say for sure.
> 
> I watched a few videos of labs and golden retriever service dogs out working. Totally different mindset. Calm, collected, content. Maybe simply a breed difference, maybe doesn't tell us much about how the dog works, but to me it makes sense if you want a service dog, get a dog suited for the job, temperamentally. In general, not a malinois. Nothing wrong with malinois for plenty of other venues.
> 
> Another video, just because this is a malinois thread... kind of "that's a very tightly wound animal". Lots to pick apart in the demo but you get the idea... these dogs are not for most people and the "sharks" knew that...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg5YNlkduCY


Bleh. Pretty sure mals are not my cup of tea. Also, nice scarf to hide the e collar and the prong collar in the video 

So this begs the question...are these pre trained ppd mals really suitable for very many people at all? Who ARE they suitable for?


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## Nurse Bishop

I think my next dog might be a Mal. Inga is young so it won't be for a while. But a ten year old Malinois bitch lives on a neighboring ranch. Very joyfully obedient to her man, most impressive. I might be biting off more than I can chew. But they don't have the health issues that many GSDs have and good for a guard dog.


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## carmspack

Mals ?

I've seen and worked beside some amazing Mals when I was doing French Ring training and when we had the first
North American Campagne trial.
Some of the top winners in France , in Ring, with Mal's and GSD were there.

The really really good ones I saw were not hyper .

But they were not the norm that is being bred - so a breed becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.


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## LBethO

We ended up spelling, to avoid mayhem. Soon, we had to spell R-I-D-E backwards and then, we avoided the words. There was a bit of a blessing when that GSD went deaf.


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## LBethO

Have you looked at Dutch Shepherds? My husband has a customer who was directed to buy and raise them instead of GSD's because of the demand Law Enforcement and military involvement has had. They don't seem to have many of the issues popular dogs have bred into them?


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## LBethO

I am crying laughing. Our other GSD was breathing so loudly the vet could not listen to her heart. The vet complained to me, I said, "treat" and Sadie held her breath. Problem solved! They are hilarious.


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## Muskeg

Hyper and what I call twitchy are two different things. None of my malinois are hyper.


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## Chip18

Muskeg said:


> Hyper and what I call twitchy are two different things. None of my malinois are hyper.


Hyper I get ... twitchy I don't???


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## carmspack

Muskeg said:


> Hyper and what I call twitchy are two different things. None of my malinois are hyper.


and I used hyper as a blanket description which included hyper sensitive , hyper reactive .

these dogs were not twitchy .

there are GSD that are twitchy -- not something that I like .

twitchy is the being on edge -- prepared to be trigger happy -- a bit of insecure and ready to react


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## Chip18

carmspack said:


> and I used hyper as a blanket description which included hyper sensitive , hyper reactive .
> 
> these dogs were not twitchy .
> 
> there are GSD that are twitchy -- not something that I like .
> 
> twitchy is the being on edge -- prepared to be trigger happy -- a bit of insecure and ready to react


Hmm sounds close to "unpredictable???" I think I'd prefer hyper ... kinda use to it. I see "Dutchies" got mentioned I don't know anything much about them but I was pretty sure what, I'd hear leaned towards not recommended for "Pet People??"


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## carmspack

they are predictable , you have to be super aware yourself so you can manage situations .

the twitchy may (trigger happy) fire off at slightest provocation , and have collateral damage .

sensory over load?


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## Chip18

carmspack said:


> they are predictable , you have to be super aware yourself so you can manage situations .
> 
> the twitchy may (trigger happy) fire off at slightest provocation , and have collateral damage .
> 
> sensory over load?


Ok ... not for the lazy and unaware. :grin2:


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