# 87.5% GSD? Lol



## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

So I received Max’s dna results and it shows that he is 87.5% GSD and 12.5% Hound, Herding, Sightsound and Guard breeds.
I realize that these tests are not really conclusive, but wow. Only 87.5% for an AKC certified GSD.
In PD there are a few holes but I doubt that there would be any hound in Max.

And it doesn’t make any difference at this point if Max comes up a Chihuahua and unicorn mix.
I love him


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

First thing first, edit your post and delete the official name until you've thought this through a little further. You stand *nothing to gain* by outing your own dog or his breeder/s here, at this point. I scoped the ped and it appears to check out just fine. Every sighthound is a hound so those results don't even make any sense? Right there just goes to show how the folks doing the analyses at the laboratory really don't know all that much about dogs.

that said, at certain _very specific_ _points_ "hound, sighthound, and guard breeds" do converge with gsd quite handily, but I won't be a party to getting that pup or the breeder/s in question revoked. Odds are quite good where breeder/s have gone to all the trouble of hanging papers down to 1/8 or 1/16, they've done so _purposefully_ and with _considerable_ breeding expertise. Just because a gsd has an outcross great grand or great great grand/s doesn't _NECESSARILY_ make him any less useful. In *many* cases it's quite the opposite.

may we see some photos of your dog?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This dog is AKC registered? What company did the DNA test? What prompted you to get the test done?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What test did you use? And why if he is akc registered?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

That’s the Wisdom Panel logo...


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Do you have any pictures? As far as DNA testing goes he could very well be purebred but have DNA that isn't in the database yet and as such not categorized into the common markers for GSDs. Since there aren't specific breeds listed my first guess would be that. Regional and closed populations can very greatly from the rest of a breed, embark at first wasn't recognizing some lab beagles as beagles. Several years ago there were also obvious lab mixed dogs identified as beagle mixes.

Considering those tests also can't pick up mixed breed dogs after 3 gens and have their flaws I used them as a base point but not wholly accurate. If a result doesn't fit with known information and common sense I have no issue excluding it. That said people can and do hang papers so there are papered mutts out there. One of the reasons I find such staunch support against opening studbooks for health and diversity concerns funny. 

I heard recently of a known 50/50 mix coming back as 100% purebred not sure how that whole story panned out though. 

Overall these tests are good for some things, not as good for others although they have greatly improved depending on the company. But for breed I wouldn't use them as too much more than a guideline rather than cold hard facts. Although I think they can help at identifying some mixed dogs and cases of hung papers.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

just for the sake of clarification, so we're all on the same page as far as terminology

mutt = 2 purebred parents, but of different breeds; while mongrel = 3 or more breeds in the mix

however in this particular case we're _ALLEGEDLY_ hypothetically/theoretically talking 7/8 gsd ("87.5%") so neither "mutt" nor "mongrel" may correctly be applied. If the results aren't incorrect, I'm pretty sure we're looking at what was once upon a time a _very common working gsd_ breeding formula, linebred on a single great great grand outcross (_both sides of the ped_). 

if indeed it is what the results _sure seem to me _to be describing, I'll bet that pup is a real spitfire and as smart as any anybody ever knew

_dying_ to see some photos here!


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> First thing first, edit your post and delete the official name until you've thought this through a little further. You stand *nothing to gain* by outing your own dog or his breeder/s here, at this point. I scoped the ped and it appears to check out just fine.


I didn’t even think about that. I have removed the name. Thank you. 

As requested some pictures


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> just for the sake of clarification, so we're all on the same page as far as terminology
> 
> mutt = 2 purebred parents, but of different breeds; while mongrel = 3 or more breeds in the mix
> 
> ...


I've never heard those definitions and I'll stick with mine. A cross-bred dog would be a combination of two different purebred parents. A mutt and mongrel can be used interchangeably but mongrel tends to be no known breeds your heinz 57 generic dog. Not a single person in my area or online uses the word mongrel. Mongrel is also given as part of the definition for mutt.

This dog has no known linebreeding within 5 generations. The few pictures in the database indicate poorly bred backyard GSD with poor structure. I'm seeing some high rears. Does look to go back to some decent dogs on one side of the pedigree before 2010. If he's mixed I would say there are mutliple options with the most likely being one of these three.

1 purebred parent, 1 50/50 GSD mix parent.
1 Purebred parent , 1 75% GSD mix parent
Two high content GSD mix parents. 

Based on the photos of dogs in the database an isolated population not represented in the DNA testing is highly likely, but it wouldn't surprise me if another breed is mixed in either.

Keep in mind people breeding dogs you like the idea of nowadays tend to be the people producing the neurotic messes that end up in shelters. There is care to be taken if you're mixing breeds and in many cases except in working dogs people tend to only have badly bred dogs to work with in the first place which already lowers the quality you can produce.


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> What test did you use? And why if he is akc registered?


It’s the Wisdom Panel. I didn’t seek out the test, it was a part of a package.
When we got Max I had a hard time finding a Vet that could see him in time to continue his Parvo boosters. I was only able to find the Banfield hospital available and in their package, a dna test is included.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Where did you get Max from?


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

Shadow Shep said:


> Where did you get Max from?


A BYB


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

RabanJr said:


> A BYB


I had an Aussie that was from a BYB. She was the best dog I have had so far. I'm not saying BYBs are okay, but sometimes the dog can turn out to be one of the best you have as far as temperament go. I'm glad that he makes you happy


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

He LOOKS purebred, but I've seen dogs that were only half GSD look like purebreds. And given the amount of pet breeding in his pedigree, it's quite possible there's something else there, but far enough back to not show in his appearance.

And I am not saying the breeder lied on the papers. It could be another male got to the female after she was bred to a purebred GSD, and the owner was unaware it happened. Many BYBs aren't even aware it's possible for a litter to have more than one sire.

Or, the other alternative: the DNA test is wrong.


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

Shadow Shep said:


> I'm glad that he makes you happy


That he does. He fills in all the checks for us.



Sunsilver said:


> He LOOKS purebred, but I've seen dogs that were only half GSD look like purebreds. And given the amount of pet breeding in his pedigree, it's quite possible there's something else there, but far enough back to not show in his appearance.
> 
> And I am not saying the breeder lied on the papers. It could be another male got to the female after she was bred to a purebred GSD, and the owner was unaware it happened. Many BYBs aren't even aware it's possible for a litter to have more than one sire.
> 
> Or, the other alternative: the DNA test is wrong.


I agree. His parents looked purebred but you never know. 
And I also have read here that the tests can be not so reliable at times.

Thank you all for your input! This site has been a wealth of information and the community is awesome. Glad to be a part of it 😀


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

To me he looks purebred, but I'm waiting to hear what everybody else sees.

1. does his coat seem unusually hard? like harsh?

2. does he have an especially pronounced sharp point right at the back of his skull? Does the crown of his skull feel wrinkled, like lateral ridges? if not, does he have a pronounced cranial ridge running lengthwise, front to back?

3. are his teeth "extra crazy?" Sharklike? Does he have a penchant for grabbing and carrying large objects in his mouth? Like it feels good for him to open his mouth extra extra wide and carry something big around? I mean like notably so? To the point that you find yourself surprised?

4. at night (dark) what color do his eyes glow with a flashlight?

Rabanjr don't you go callin' that pup "a mix." Too much time and effort when into that pedigree. "87.5%" is, by definition, "fullblood" and 15/16 is "thoroughbred." You bet your boots on that. 



Kazel said:


> I've never heard those definitions and I'll stick with mine.


that don't make ya any less wrong  For the sake of clinical discourse these definitions are not arbitrary. "Mutt" is the offspring of purebred parents, different breeds (F1, halfbreed, etc). Mongrel is 3 or more breeds (composite).



Kazel said:


> This dog has no known linebreeding within 5 generations.


have another look at the ped. The linebreeding is encoded @ great great grand (2009 - 2012)



Kazel said:


> The few pictures in the database indicate poorly bred backyard GSD


nevermind the fotos, you're looking in the wrong place. Focus on the language. While I can't imagine "showdog" ever even entered into it @ '09-'12, utility does not equate to "poorly bred"



Kazel said:


> an isolated population not represented in the DNA testing is highly likely


sounds like 7/8 and/or 15/16 to me



Kazel said:


> There is care to be taken if you're mixing breeds and in many cases except in working dogs


define "working." Do you mean like bite sports?



Kazel said:


> people tend to only have badly bred dogs to work with in the first place which already lowers the quality you can produce.


disagree and the ped in question is a _beautiful illustration_ of improved breeding. There's a best in every litter and if you linebreed on best you'll get better. I would not hesitate to buy and train the heck out of that ped in hopes of founding a line. Not for a nanosecond.

hint: it looks to me like we may have _finally found one_ that don't go back to the paternal bottlenecks


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Sunsilver said:


> Or, the other alternative: the DNA test is wrong.


 all it takes is _one little micro particle_ to contaminate/ruin the analyses


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

No reflection on OP'S dog but Berno's comment. The best of a poorly bred litter seldom rivals the worst of a well bred litter. It is not hard to improve on poorly bred by breeding to well bred. Continue the process and eventually the cream will rise to the top and start approaching that of well bred. Or, you can simply start with well bred and save yourself generations striving to achieve what already exists.

Berno, what do you think this dog is crossed with?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

no idea, but I wish you wouldn't muddy up this thread with puppy mill pix...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

berno von der seeweise said:


> hint: it looks to me like we may have _finally found one_ that don't go back to the paternal bottlenecks


Berno, you can HONESTLY say that, with all the blank spots in the pedigree??
Forgive me for laughing here...














🤣


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

in this case the blanks tell the story. That, and I'm _at least half sure_ I recognize those "FS" designations from back in '09. Ipo3 imported from brandenburg, known to have sired a number of litters x us gsd dams (IN, OH, KY, WV, etc) @ the time

of course I could be completely wrong; but between the ped, the "FS," the "87.5%," the "sighthound/guarding breeds," seems like an awful lot lining up in support of that hypothesis?

not to mention the progeny lists... those breeders weren't fooling around... eleven years time and a whole lot of effort went into that ped... all of a sudden I can't help wondering if rabanjr isn't yanking our chains? if so, very well played! if not, looks to me like you probably got yourself a real, _real good one _right there.

stuff happens, old breeders die, breeding programs get dispersed, who knows?

rabanjr, does J from cvk9 ring any bells on your end?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> no idea, but I wish you wouldn't muddy up this thread with puppy mill pix...


I thought you wanted to see pictures of GSD / sighthound mixes?


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

1. does his coat seem unusually hard? like harsh?

At 4 months old, his hair is rougher than other dogs, but not harsh since I give him fish oil everyday and I think that helps a lot.

2. does he have an especially pronounced sharp point right at the back of his skull? Does the crown of his skull feel wrinkled, like lateral ridges? if not, does he have a pronounced cranial ridge running lengthwise, front to back?

At the back of the skull, he has a point that is right in the middle. There is a valley going down the top middle of his skull. From the front to the point in the back. 
Poor guy is trying to sleep next to me while I examine his head 



















3. are his teeth "extra crazy?" Sharklike? Does he have a penchant for grabbing and carrying large objects in his mouth? Like it feels good for him to open his mouth extra extra wide and carry something big around? I mean like notably so? To the point that you find yourself surprised?

As for his teeth, he is teething now and is loosing his baby teeth. The sharpest teeth that I have ever dealt with. The front teeth were even sort of ridged, if that makes any sense. He likes branches that are bigger than he is 










4. at night (dark) what color do his eyes glow with a flashlight?

I will have to double check on this, but if I remember correctly, they are sort of greenish blue bronze like in color when reflected. I will check tonight again.


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

Here are more pictures just taken. Whatever he is, he's mine


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

berno von der seeweise said:


> in this case the blanks tell the story. That, and I'm _at least half sure_ I recognize those "FS" designations from back in '09. Ipo3 imported from brandenburg, known to have sired a number of litters x us gsd dams (IN, OH, KY, WV, etc) @ the time
> 
> of course I could be completely wrong; but between the ped, the "FS," the "87.5%," the "sightound/guarding breeds," seems like an awful lot lining up in support of that hypothesis?
> 
> ...


LOL, No, not yanking any chains 😅 I did get lucky with Max. Be what he may be, we love him!

I really don't know anything about the cvk9 ring. All of this started when I registered max and paid for the 5 generation pedigree from AKC. Then on this site I learned about the Pedegreedatabase. I added Max and his parents and it all fell into place. Then the DNA test came back and it showed 87.5%, and here we are.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

he sure looks 100% ALL purebred _to me_? what does anybody else think?


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

It has never been a question with anyone until the dreaded DNA test came back. Then we figured that those tests can be a little off.

There is a GSD breeder that works at the vet, who remarked at how nice he looked, but who knows


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Yeah, I don't think a mutt is 2 and mongrel is 3 or more either. 









Mongrel - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org





^^^A *mongrel*, *mutt* or *mixed-breed dog* is a dog that does not belong to one officially recognized breed and is not the result of intentional breeding. 

*Regional and slang terms[edit]*
Generic pariah-type feral dogs are typically medium-sized and have yellow-to-rust-colored coats
The words _cur_,[8] _tyke_,[9] _mutt_, and _mongrel_[10] are used, sometimes in a derogatory manner. There are also regional terms for mixed-breed dogs. In the United Kingdom, _mongrel_ is the unique technical word for a mixed-breed dog. North Americans generally prefer the term _mix_ or _mixed-breed_. _Mutt_[11] is also commonly used (in the United States and Canada). Some American registries and dog clubs that accept mixed-breed dogs use the breed description _All American_.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

What is his pedigree? I'm just curious. Can you PM me the link? He does not look mixed to me. Not even high content. He looks like a sable puppy. I would be curious what the Embark panel returned for his genetics. You could also have the parents tested? But I think you really don't care and just love your dog. Your posts seem more of a "will you look at this ha ha" than upset.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Yeah, he does look purebred. I'm curious too.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

he's the spitting image of little igor v dunklemgrau

perhaps of note is the heretofore infamous _perlich's duke_ behind max's dam__


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

His markings resemble my sable puppy, right down to the "shawl" around his neck. Looks purebred to me.
I'd have a hard time imagining what could be "mixed" with him and retain that much Shepherd-like appearance.
Well, I know the OP mentioned the other breeds accounting for the 12.5%. Not seeing the "hound" influence. . . 

If I encountered him on the sidewalk, and you said he was full GSD, and mentioned no DNA test, I'd never give your appraisal a second thought.


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

Jax08 said:


> What is his pedigree? I'm just curious. Can you PM me the link? He does not look mixed to me. Not even high content. He looks like a sable puppy. I would be curious what the Embark panel returned for his genetics. You could also have the parents tested? But I think you really don't care and just love your dog. Your posts seem more of a "will you look at this ha ha" than upset.


PM sent!

You are right. I don't really care. Thought that it was funny, but it would have been nice to see 100% GSD. Even then, I'm afraid, that could be wrong also


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

RabanJr said:


> PM sent!
> 
> You are right. I don't really care. Thought that it was funny, but it would have been nice to see 100% GSD. Even then, I'm afraid, that could be wrong also


I’m really guessing there’s a good chance he just has an isolated population of GSD. I’d contact the company and also maybe see if the breeder would be willing to do testing on the parents to see. The fact that is gives no actual breeds just breed groups is what makes me lean towards and isolated population of GSD that just isn’t in their database.

Did you do embark or wisdom panel? Wisdom panel is known for being less accurate.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

He's a beautiful dog, no matter what breed he is. My Duke is 83% GS, with a little Samoyed and about 14% supermutt. But he's all sweetie pie.


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## RabanJr (Jul 17, 2020)

Kazel said:


> The fact that is gives no actual breeds just breed groups is what makes me lean towards and isolated population of GSD that just isn’t in their database.


Makes absolute sense 




Kazel said:


> Did you do embark or wisdom panel? Wisdom panel is known for being less accurate.


It was the Wisdom panel. As it was included in the Banfield package, I would not count it as the most accurate.




Buckelke said:


> He's a beautiful dog, no matter what breed he is. My Duke is 83% GS, with a little Samoyed and about 14% supermutt. But he's all sweetie pie.
> View attachment 563084


That is my feeling also!
What a beautiful guy!!


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

_
3. are his teeth "extra crazy?" Sharklike? Does he have a penchant for grabbing and carrying large objects in his mouth? Like it feels good for him to open his mouth extra extra wide and carry something big around? I mean like notably so? To the point that you find yourself surprised? _

That's Elke with that large blue barrett ball. It's her best friend and she can't go anywhere without it. She breathes through it and we call her Darth Elke. It looks painful. What does she do that!?!?!


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Kazel said:


> I’m really guessing there’s a good chance he just has an isolated population of GSD. I’d contact the company and also maybe see if the breeder would be willing to do testing on the parents to see. The fact that is gives no actual breeds just breed groups is what makes me lean towards an *isolated population of GSD that just isn’t in their database.*


i would be surprised to think that this could still be possible with both the popularity of GSD and Wisdom panel.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

yes and no imo. Isolated populations will diverge pretty quick, so if the dna mutates and if all the lab can do is look at unique markers and take a wild guess, then? who knows?

fwiw I noticed another clue here: "DNA: V597937"

is that possibly on file w/ akc? if so, what good is it?

OT: I intend to map my breeding program w/ wisdom panel, if it ever happens...


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Fodder said:


> i would be surprised to think that this could still be possible with both the popularity of GSD and Wisdom panel.


I’ve still been seeing some very odd results from wisdom panel and it’s something that’s been on my mind for quite some time because populations can vary quite a bit. The fact that they give no known breeds is what makes me think GSD. Either way they do not have the data to identify the unknown so it’s either GSD or a different breed they don’t have enough data on.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> I’ve still been seeing some very odd results from wisdom panel and it’s something that’s been on my mind for quite some time because populations can vary quite a bit. The fact that they give no known breeds is what makes me think GSD. Either way they do not have the data to identify the unknown so it’s either GSD or a different breed they don’t have enough data on.


Embark does a lot of the supermutt thing too.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Kazel said:


> I’ve still been seeing some very odd results from wisdom panel and it’s something that’s been on my mind for quite some time because populations can vary quite a bit. The fact that they give no known breeds is what makes me think GSD. Either way they do not have the data to identify the unknown so it’s either GSD or a different breed they don’t have enough data on.


 didn't you say they can't identify breed beyond 3 generations back? or 5 generations? something like that?

sire and dam = 50%/50%, four grands = 25/25/25/25, eight great grands contribute 12.5% each, sixteen great great grands = 6.25% each, etc. Provided no linebreeding/repeats in the ped... and bear in mind math "%" results are _entirely theoretical_ because inheritance = roll of the dice/luck of the draw. Full siblings don't have identical dna. 

so they've mapped enough to identify breed markers, but the Science is still in it's infancy


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

If there are blank/unknown spots anywhere in the pedigree you will get some vague group results that can read breeds that make up the German shepherd. If those breeds that made up the German shepherd are not on the list you will get those extremely vague groups results which can effect accuracy. There is no doubt that your dog is a German shepherd. The results can make one wonder if the Ibizan hound an ancient breed or a breed close to that is part of the Germans shepherd’s inception. Just because the results says your dog is 87.5% German shepherd does not make it so.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

For me, REMOVED BY MODERATOR it, it's close enough!!!

We can all wrangle about this stuff...I'm sure for days... But really why does it matter???

Temperment and health, of the ancestors is what MATTERS!!! When choosing a puppy...


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

tim_s_adams said:


> For me, REMOVED BY MODERATOR it, it's close enough!!!
> 
> We can all wrangle about this stuff...I'm sure for days... But really why does it matter???
> 
> Temperment and health, of the ancestors is what MATTERS!!! When choosing a puppy...


Yes but if people are lying about those ancestors then you’re working off faulty data. Health issues and behavioral quirks might be different than expected for the breed.

Also I haven’t seen people arguing so much as discussing whats going on. It’s interesting to me to discuss DNA tests and their accuracy.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Kazel said:


> Yes but if people are lying about those ancestors then you’re working off faulty data. Health issues and behavioral quirks might be different than expected for the breed.
> 
> Also I haven’t seen people arguing so much as discussing whats going on. It’s interesting to me to discuss DNA tests and their accuracy.


I am really interested in your comments as I have had a lot of questions about these tests for a long time with no answers. Thanks for your input!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> he's the spitting image of little igor v dunklemgrau
> 
> perhaps of note is the heretofore infamous _perlich's duke_ behind max's dam__


What's the link? I remember Rionel's thread on Perlich dogs. That is the thread that brought your and Rionel's friends to this forum, Chris Svoboda and Jakub Novotny. Rionel was temporarily banned over that thread and never returned after it was lifted. He seemed to loathe Chris Svoboda. You barely could conceal your wrath at the appearance of your pals. All of you seem to know each other outside of here and Perlich is the link. So tell us about your interest in Perlich dogs, and the dog in this thread. I am starting to think that the questionable genetics in this pedigree is coming down through Perlich's Duke. Your penchant for sighthounds has been duly noted across multiple threads. 

Did you have a hand in breeding Perlich's Duke? Did you add the sighthound genetics that are showing up in the DNA test? Is this the reason for your excitement and enthusiasm in this thread and about this pup?


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am really interested in your comments as I have had a lot of questions about these tests for a long time with no answers. Thanks for your input!


I think they’re pretty interesting I’m wanting time learn more about them still. One of my questions is how likely is a mixing of two breeds to produce results that might come back as a different breed. Which would probably go back to mutation percentages depending on how they run the tests.

I’m also interested in their COI calculations. People were posting results and quite a few dogs with a calculated COI that’s low like 2.5% and such but actual COI of 20%. I think that really highlights genetic bottlenecks and low unique population numbers even in breeds such as GSD that may have a very high number of actual dogs in the breed. Not enough diversity problem. A COI of over 5% is when you can start seeing inbreeding depression such reduced litter sizes. Above 10% you expect to start seeing other more noticeable effects negative effects. It isn’t 100% of course but merely what can and does happen.

When you have dogs that should have a low to no COI by pedigree coming up in 20% that’s a bad sign in my books because the bad comes with the good and multifactoral recessive disorders aren’t simple to breed away from. Just look at the DCM crisis in dobermans.

I don’t know how much it’s being studied in dogs but I was reading one study awhile back talking about potential fertility issues and abortions in animals that have too similar in a certain type of genes and even a reluctance to mate with animals too similar in that regards or even too different. Balance between some similarities but not too much or too little.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

judging from the ped, I think it's safe to assume perlich's duke was predominantly lance of fran jo combined with substantial white gsd contributions. I see no reason to assume "sighthound" there? I'd never even heard of him until the other thread, but apparently he really got around?

OP max' ped begins here: "DNA: V597937" and only one offspring was registered per, for like the next 5 gens. That's pretty darn noteworthy in and of itself. I think it would be fascinating to compare max dna with "DNA: V597937" but have no idea if or how that would be possible?

As for the "sighthound/guard breed" stuff, _this particular ped_ maybe rang a few bells here? Appx 2007 or so, a few working dogs (not gsd and NOT from the hound group, but certainly _sighthoundish_ skulls) were imported to usa and crossed to akc showlines without much success. Thereafter crosses were made to gsd with very good success. So the dates line up and the dna analyses line up; but still just a hunch, and absolutely no reason to besmirch max ped.

I only wish I were _half as interesting_ a character as MAWL apparently assumes 



Kazel said:


> Yes but if people are lying about those ancestors then you’re working off faulty data. Health issues and behavioral quirks might be different than expected for the breed.


in terms of rational breeding 7/8 constitutes fullblood so I wouldn't expect much _if any_ deviation. "87.5%" (7/8) would be a good place imo to start registering "_undocumented_" dogs based upon performance now, as a safeguard against future genetic implosion. There's no other way to defeat the bottlenecks, so it's either crossbreed, or bioengineer it in some commercial laboratory. Personally I have a lot more faith in good old fashioned selection, thank you very much.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> judging from the ped, I think it's safe to assume perlich's duke was predominantly lance of fran jo combined with substantial white gsd contributions. I see no reason to assume "sighthound" there? I'd never even heard of him until the other thread, but apparently he really got around?
> 
> OP max' ped begins here: "DNA: V597937" and only one offspring was registered per, for like the next 5 gens. That's pretty darn noteworthy in and of itself. I think it would be fascinating to compare max dna with "DNA: V597937" but have no idea if or how that would be possible?
> 
> ...


Interesting in your dreams, unforthcoming as well as taunting with hints of culling puppies and breeding mongrels, and being a detriment to the breed.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

"unforthcoming" regarding what, exactly?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

berno von der seeweise said:


> judging from the ped, I think it's safe to assume perlich's duke was predominantly lance of fran jo combined with substantial white gsd contributions. I see no reason to assume "sighthound" there? I'd never even heard of him until the other thread, but apparently he really got around?
> 
> OP max' ped begins here: "DNA: V597937" and only one offspring was registered per, for like the next 5 gens. That's pretty darn noteworthy in and of itself. I think it would be fascinating to compare max dna with "DNA: V597937" but have no idea if or how that would be possible?
> 
> ...


You must love those q registrations.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

?
I don't do social media, let alone social media drama. No idea what you're talking about? No idea who MAWL's mystery characters are and don't care? No connection to perlich's duke other than a personal affinity for the pre-german reunification usa type. I have a penchant for reading peds. I have considerable experience with other breeds, which gives me somewhat apparently atypical insights hereabouts. That's really all there is to it.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> ?
> I don't do social media, let alone social media drama. No idea what you're talking about? No idea who MAWL's mystery characters are and don't care? No connection to perlich's duke other than a personal affinity for the pre-german reunification usa type. I have a penchant for reading peds. I have considerable experience with other breeds, which gives me somewhat apparently atypical insights hereabouts. That's really all there is to it.


Sure, everything is a coincidence, including your interest in Perlich dogs, sighthounds, and purebred GSDs of Perlich heritage that DNA as sighthounds not to mention your cast of characters trailing behind you that also coincidentally have ties to Perlich dogs.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

"cast of characters"  hilarious! When you put it that way I can see how one may "assume" but no. I'm not a "cloak and dagger" guy, and for the record I have_ zero _experience with anything in the hound group. However experience has taught me to appreciate long jaw low stop "sighthound type" heads found in other groups (including herding), and I'm confident that trait was inherited from sighthound type parentstocks. But that's as far as any of it goes. Feel free to have fun with it though.

I can't help it people keep posting peds that go back to perlich? it's not my fault...

I'm basically like just a victim over here now....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> "cast of characters"  hilarious! When you put it that way I can see how one may "assume" but no. I'm not a "cloak and dagger" guy, and for the record I have_ zero _experience with anything in the hound group. However experience has taught me to appreciate long jaw low stop "sighthound type" heads found in other groups (including herding), and I'm confident that trait was inherited from sighthound type parentstocks. But that's as far as any of it goes. Feel free to have fun with it though.
> 
> I can't help it people keep posting peds that go back to perlich? it's not my fault...
> 
> I'm basically like just a victim over here now....


A victim? Lol. Hardly, more like an instigator. When you speak of long jaw, are you referring to a strong jaw vs one that is undershot?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

in the case of gsd specifically, sz 1131467 illustrates the ideal "long jaw, moderate stop" imo

not to suggest it's_ entirely _uncommon, but the foto angle itself is somewhat rare



MineAreWorkingline said:


> A victim? Lol. Hardly, more like an instigator.


 what exactly did I "instigate?" OP posted his results, I offered my opinion, and that's all there was to it. I'm not being defensive, I'm just a little confused as to what you mean?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> in the case of gsd specifically, sz 1131467 illustrates the ideal "long jaw, moderate stop" imo
> 
> not to suggest it's_ entirely _uncommon, but the foto angle itself is somewhat rare


I showed you a picture of a dog like that and you had nothing to say. First you say you do, and then you don't.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

you lost me. I have no idea what you're talking about? but whatever I said, or didn't say, or did, or didn't do, I apologize wholeheartedly. No offense intended. *I'm sorry.*

edit: and right _at that very moment_, little igor engaged in his first tie! yeehaw!!


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> you lost me. I have no idea what you're talking about? but whatever I said, or didn't say, or did, or didn't do, I apologize wholeheartedly. No offense intended. *I'm sorry.*
> 
> edit: and right _at that very moment_, little igor engaged in his first tie! yeehaw!!


Not offended at all. Tie to what?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

you're either good luck or bad luck... either way, I'll keep you posted


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> you're either good luck or bad luck... either way, I'll keep you posted


Bad to the bone!

Show me those hip xrays! Better yet, show me the pedigree!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

berno von der seeweise said:


> I have a penchant for reading peds. I have considerable experience with other breeds, which gives me somewhat apparently atypical insights hereabouts. That's really all there is to it.


What other breeds?


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Bad to the bone!


well, you know, lunar 3rd quarter occurred early this morning, so anytime between then and new moon is quite favorable. And that kinda sets the stage nicely for vpat, ohh? Somewhere between xmas eve and new year, so that’s pretty convenient also…
but there’s an above average number of slippery “if factors” lurking between here and there, like “if” the unproved ultra-testosteronerized hextuple inbred backcross dam _perhaps to be_ in question is even able to carry a litter to term, or for that matter even able to lactate… so the situation here is quite fluid at best…

nevertheless, I mean at the very instant I keyed the y in my “sorry” little igor finally terminated his very first studly objective, thereby “proving,” so… all things considered? I have to call ya prolly good luck…

but you know, something that’s been on my mind here for awhile now, is the apparent plethora of unique maternal gsd foundations, vs the ever-looming paternal gsd bottlenecks. I mean if I’m being just painfully brutally unapologetically honest about it, my gut says outcrossing a gsd male at this point is going wrong way ‘round the barn. If ever I were to aspire to breed gsd, I’d outcross a female gsd, and then backcross that “exotic” Y chromosome to other gsd dams.
groenendael looks like the most genetically diverse of the bsd’s, but other breeds could and imo should be utilized, including but not limited to the other bsd variants, beauce, briard, dobe, rott, et al. Considering schH was the original breeding selection, any male that ipg’s will do (once). The idea being to found and begin managing some _actual functional modern_ paternal gsd bloodlines into the future...

obviously that excludes little igor (_same old nuclear dna_), and seein’ as how I don’t own a stable fulla gsd dams, I consider myself effectively “off the hook” in that endeavor as well…










lately I find myself inexplicably drawn to carpathian sheepdog here?

just something about them feels so... eerily familiar?...


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

berno von der seeweise said:


> well, you know, lunar 3rd quarter occurred early this morning, so anytime between then and new moon is quite favorable. And that kinda sets the stage nicely for vpat, ohh? Somewhere between xmas eve and new year, so that’s pretty convenient also…
> but there’s an above average number of slippery “if factors” lurking between here and there, like “if” the unproved ultra-testosteronerized hextuple inbred backcross dam _perhaps to be_ in question is even able to carry a litter to term, or for that matter even able to lactate… so the situation here is quite fluid at best…
> 
> nevertheless, I mean at the very instant I keyed the y in my “sorry” little igor finally terminated his very first studly objective, thereby “proving,” so… all things considered? I have to call ya prolly good luck…
> ...


Sounds like you have an affinity for KNPV breedings with a dose of LGDs.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

berno von der seeweise said:


> in terms of rational breeding 7/8 constitutes fullblood so I wouldn't expect much _if any_ deviation. "87.5%" (7/8) would be a good place imo to start registering "_undocumented_" dogs based upon performance now, as a safeguard against future genetic implosion. There's no other way to defeat the bottlenecks, so it's either crossbreed, or bioengineer it in some commercial laboratory. Personally I have a lot more faith in good old fashioned selection, thank you very much.


In terms of purebred dogs 7/8 is not "full blood" other than being full of blood. And the only way to defeat bottlenecks is to change how people breed. We can outcross all day long but as long as continual and excessive linbreeding happens no progress can be made. If you have a dog that is 7/8 but isn't being bred for breed type then you can be getting all sorts of genes introduced including diseases and temperament/drive differences. That 87.5% is only markers they use to identify breeds, it isn't all of the dog's DNA so you don't know what genes from other breeds that dog may have inherited. Such as silver labs inheriting many negative health issues and temperament issues along with physical weimerainer characteristics. The dogs test back as 100% lab but they do not respresent what labs should be like as a breed.


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## berno von der seeweise (Mar 8, 2020)

Whether you’re on the “performance vs conformation” fence or have already jumped off to one side of it or the other, the simple fact of the matter is, unless somebody somewhere maintains/isolates straightbred populations, there won’t be anything to crossbreed. In the case of dogs, that’s what the dog fancy is for.
Regarding silver labs it’s not “akc vs field dog studbook,” and in the case of gsd it’s not “fci vs knpv.” These are false paradigms. Performance breeders ultimately depend upon on conformation orgs for fresh genetics, whether they realize it or not.
In the case of gsd specifically, having spent considerable time over the last 6 months deep diving the database, I can see where the tables may turn real quick, and the fancy will come to rely on performance culls for conformation exhibitions; but as usual, I digress. There is already so much variation in gsd, both conformation and temperament, I see little if any real risk in terms of introgression from other breeds in performance based breeding programs.

Regarding linebreeding and/or inbreeding, I can’t strongly enough suggest looking far beyond the dog fancy and studying sustainable production systems. Be it fiber, protein, whatever, people’s very lives depend on it and they’re making it work all over the world, despite all the same challenges western pedigree dog breeds face today.

Your isolation/mutation hypotheses are correct, and that’s where real diversity comes from. So while various gsd phenotypes may appear _perverse caricatures_ to your eye, they nevertheless demonstrate the principle observably. Apply that formula down to individual performance based breeding programs and the GIANT gsd bottleneck shatters into many little individual bottlenecks, which may then “bail each other out” down the line, via crossbreeding, when necessary.

A bloodline IS a bottleneck, and improved breeding IS the effective management of inbreeding depression.

In the macro, a breed is a finite isolated population, therefore it’s simply not possible to outbreed forever. Any attempt to do so will ultimately fail. In the micro, a bloodline is a finite isolated subpopulation, and it’s simply not possible to inbreed forever. Isolated populations may inbreed a long, long way, but eventually/occasionally they must either overlap with an unrelated/distantly related population, or ultimately face extinction.

“Take the good where you find it; breed as you like, but be honest about it; and let the results be your guide.” - Freiherr von Zedlitz-Neukirch


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