# How to teach a solid "NO!"?



## dhaney81 (Nov 5, 2014)

How do you teach a dog an unquestioned "NO!"? And how do you teach "OUT!"? AKA get out of my face for a second.

Over time I feel like a dog understands the means, but I'm curious if there's really a proper/recommended way to teach these things.


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## MadLab (Jan 7, 2013)

First you need a distinction of what the terms mean. I would say No means stop doing something. Or you can't have something. Off/Out, means stop biting something or drop object in mouth

The off you quote here


> And how do you teach "OUT!"? AKA get out of my face for a second.


 is really confusing for a dog i would think, It would be easier to say 'go to bed' or go sit on a cushion, ie a place command.

For the no i would look up 'food refusal' in with Micheal Ellis. that is essentially a 'no you can't have this treat, get used too it'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR8Jbthtu4U


For a place command or a go to place, ie a blanket on the ground I'd check tyler muto on utube. Your 'AKA get out of my face for a second' is like excitement and play to a dog. Will it understand it? I don't think so.

But if you develop a place command patiently, the dog will probably respond favorably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O75dyWITP1s


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## VTGirlT (May 23, 2013)

Although i am not a dog trainer. I would say the biggest thing is YOU, your energy about the word, the way you say it, and your body language are the bigger contributing factors. 
Just be consistent. When you say "no" thats not really telling them what you want them to do, so it not only can be confusing but also really not helpful. I dont think i really ever use the word "no." I use the word "off" for when she is barking at dogs, for when she is about to pick something up with her mouth she shouldn't, for when she is power bumping a dog who doesn't want her in their face. Otherwise i try to follow up with another command, such as "lets go" (if she is off leash trying to eat something she shouldn't) or something such as i get excited about a tug toy, so we can play, instead of her annoying the other dog. 

_"And how do you teach "OUT!"? AKA get out of my face for a second."_
I am sure you already doing this a lot, but exercise! They are far less "annoying" and in our faces when they are tired mentally and physically. Find a job for your dog! I am hoping to start nose work with my dog soon after school is over. If she didn't have bad hips i would do agility because that really works them in both mentally and physically. As i think both of those she can boost confidence in and excel, and would both be fun for me too! 
Find what your dog likes to do, what you like to do, and what you find will actually work for your life. Even just doing obedience can be considered a job in ways. 

As for the question, instead of saying "out" for getting them out of your space for a second. Get a good "place" command going. You can buy dog beds, like this one, [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Coolaroo-Elevated-Style-Knitted-Fabric/dp/B000P7JKD6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1429302155&sr=8-1&keywords=off+the+floor+dog+bed[/ame]
for good price. The elevated ones are good, because when you are teaching place command. Its a lot more obvious for you and the dog, when they are off of the "place." You can teach your dog to be calm on its place. So that you and your dog can both have some quiet time, but can still be in the same room together. 
Than you can find time to tie your shoes without your dog licking your face, etc.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Out or leave it "should" be easy enough to train/teach using a tug toy, "NO" when used "properly" means "stop" doing whatever your doing "right freaking now!" 

"NO" is how I taught my Boxer to chase Rabbits to the North Mountains and not the South towards the Hwy. So I can say "NO" has been Boxer tested and Boxer approved!


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

Command "No!" is the most confusing of all for any dog. "No" - what? Why? These questions dog asks you silently with his eyes but you cannot explain him even in human terms. But all dogs finally start to obey.
If "No" is connected to punishment - your dog would remember at once and forever its meaning. One trouble - physical punishment works only for puppies under 5 months old. Say, he runs somewhere, you are shouting "No!", he continues to run, you run after him, and, before he reaches his desired object - you catch up with him and start striking with the leash, each stroke is accompanied with a strong "No!", "No!", one more "No!". He will remember this "No" to the rest of his life. Many dog owners do that, and find teaching "No" this way (-R) very effective.
But why to beat your dog for something he doesn't understand? I suggest to use "No" in combination with already well learned and used commands. "No, heel!" - when walking, "No, come!" - when your dog intends to approach a stranger, and so on. Later on "No" will work on its own without additional command. Thus command "No" doesn't require pricked back ears, your dog with the single "No" starts to understand that you want him to do something else. My dog understand it as command "Come" or "Heel" - half way fulfilled, she will give up her intentions and continue to run in some other direction, or she will turn back to me and would be somewhere close to me.
It is important to watch your dog and recognise his intentions. "No" should always come in time. If your dog is in his action already - it would be too late to say it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Read Prager's posts starting here
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/how-do-i-teach-my-dog/537802-barking-people.html#post6746282

I think somewhere in there he explains how he does it


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> "No" should always come in time. If your dog is in his action already - it would be too late to say it.


This is the part "I" get clearly and yes, I agree. Off leash and tool free for "my" dogs "NO"
was an absolute! And yes I guess I was "Jack Rabbit" fast in issuing the "NO" command !


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Ummmmmm....mean it ???? I'm just guessing...


SuperG


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## ILoveBella478 (Mar 13, 2015)

Just squeeze the muzzle not to hard and say no they'll get the point


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

David Taggart said:


> Command "No!" is the most confusing of all for any dog. "No" - what? Why?


Quoting this for the importance of it! The problem with "No" is that we as humans with language really want to abuse it:

Jumping up - "No!"
Running away - "No!"
Mouthing - "No!"
Barking - "No!"
Stealing stuff - "No!"

If you just keep saying, "No", and you don't have consistent, specific goals of what "No" should mean, it's just going to turn into white noise. At best, your dog will understand that you're upset based on tone and body language and stop doing anything just because it's nervous, but it's not learning anything about what TO do.

It's better to have specific ideas of what you want your dog to do INSTEAD of what you don't, that way you have something to teach and something your dog understands. You think of a behavior that is incompatible with the "bad" behavior, and teach that.

For example, it sounds like the jumping up/getting in your face is a big one for you. A dog can't jump up if it's sitting! Or, if you're really looking for a break, a "Place" command like was already suggested. If you're really determined to teach "No" to stop a current action (like most of us! "No" is so natural to say!) then you teach in conjunction like David said. Once you've started to establish that you can get your dog into a sit, down, whatever, as an alternate behavior, then you start with the, "No, sit!" What happens is, the dog starts to associate the "No" with choosing the wrong behavior, just like a "Yes" or clicker marks the right one. What you're ultimately saying to the dog, is "No, you chose the wrong behavior, try again."

None of this is all going to happen overnight, but I think if you break it down and figure out alternate things to tell your dog to do, you'll have quicker progress than just saying "No" and hoping for the best. It takes the guesswork out of it, dogs love that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Uhg I guess "NO" is more complicated than I realized?? For me there were no "corrections" involved! 

"NO" simple meant "stop" doing whatever it is you're doing "right freaking now!" For "me" it was a universal command.

Intuitive I guess? Depends on how the "individual uses it??


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

No is generally conditioned punishment. The commands is given, followed by a correction. If the dog stops what it is doing, it avoids the correction. It's important to follow the correction with guidance, such as "NO, SIT" so the dog understands how to avoid the correction.

Chip, so how do you train this intuitive command? No means "stop doing whatever it is that you're doing right freaking now." How do you communicate that to the dog without some type of punishment?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I use "no" as a marker to signal punishment in the same way people use yes to signal end of behavior and a reward is coming.

if I say it it means punishment is incoming EVERY single time. So anytime my dogs hear it and they know it is for them (they know over time who it is for). It is unavoidable even if they stop whatever action it was that caused me to say no. This is because they already made the wrong decision and their mistake is being punished. The goal is not to get a dog to stop a behavior when I say no. The goal is to get the dog to never engage in that behavior in the first place.

So I only use no to mark behaviors I never want to see. For behaviors I just don't want to see at that particular moment but might be ok under other circumstances I use an uh uh or a knock it off and I might repeat it 2-3 times to give the dog a chance to stop and if I don't see a change in behavior then no and punish because they are ignoring a warning signal and they should never do that.

Using the word no by itself without a fixed consequence attached to it is bad training if your goal is to make that signal highly effective. It can work occasionally maybe even most times if kept charged on occasion but every time you say no without a consequence it's akin to firing off a round without reloading your gun. Eventually you run out of ammo and it can happen at a critical moment and usually does.

To be fair to my dogs the first time a behavior is marked with a no, assuming it isn't a behavior I'll try to kill with a single event learning experience, the first 4-5 times I mark an undesirable behavior I will usually nag punish to let them know exactly what it is for. After that if I still see it I will up the punishment significantly to a (never do that again) level. 

Done right clearly/consistently/fairly the dogs avoid the undesirable behavior understand no means whatever you're doing isn't a good thing and you should stop immediately and refrain from repeating the behavior in the future, and your relationship with the dog remains undamaged.


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

Baillif said:


> I use "no" as a marker to signal punishment in the same way people use yes to signal end of behavior and a reward is coming.
> 
> if I say it it means punishment is incoming EVERY single time. So anytime my dogs hear it and they know it is for them (they know over time who it is for). It is unavoidable even if they stop whatever action it was that caused me to say no. This is because they already made the wrong decision and their mistake is being punished. The goal is not to get a dog to stop a behavior when I say no. The goal is to get the dog to never engage in that behavior in the first place.
> 
> ...


Ha good post. Well actually excellent post. Except in another thread you advocated hitting the dog. Is that your consequence after you say "NO!" Just curious.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

This book I just got, "The other end of the leash" says not to give a command right on top of a "No". Like "No,Sit" or "No,Stay". Says you are giving conflicting information as they associate the No with the command.


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## Prager (Jul 3, 2011)

David Taggart said:


> Command "No!" is the most confusing of all for any dog. "No" - what? Why? These questions dog asks you silently with his eyes but you cannot explain him even in human terms. But all dogs finally start to obey.
> If "No" is connected to punishment - your dog would remember at once and forever its meaning. One trouble - physical punishment works only for puppies under 5 months old. Say, he runs somewhere, you are shouting "No!", he continues to run, you run after him, and, before he reaches his desired object - you catch up with him and start striking with the leash, each stroke is accompanied with a strong "No!", "No!", one more "No!". He will remember this "No" to the rest of his life. Many dog owners do that, and find teaching "No" this way (-R) very effective.
> But why to beat your dog for something he doesn't understand? I suggest to use "No" in combination with already well learned and used commands. "No, heel!" - when walking, "No, come!" - when your dog intends to approach a stranger, and so on. Later on "No" will work on its own without additional command. Thus command "No" doesn't require pricked back ears, your dog with the single "No" starts to understand that you want him to do something else. My dog understand it as command "Come" or "Heel" - half way fulfilled, she will give up her intentions and continue to run in some other direction, or she will turn back to me and would be somewhere close to me.
> It is important to watch your dog and recognise his intentions. "No" should always come in time. If your dog is in his action already - it would be too late to say it.


So No! Heel ? is not confusing? In my book it cold mean Do not heel. 
However to say No! Means stop doing what ever you doing or thinking of doing at this moment or do what ever i told you to do. Since it is applied the presence of the behavior the dog clearly understands. Dogs are not as stupid as you would want us to believe they understand it quite clearly and not just for first 5 mo of their life. If you want to touch something and I say in stern voice NO! Do you understand what it means? Yes, you do. Well so does the dog if he was trained the meaning of the word NO! and as long as the No! is said while the dog is doing what ever he is doing or better yet thinking of doing.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Prager said:


> Ha good post. Well actually excellent post. Except in another thread you advocated hitting the dog. Is that your consequence after you say "NO!" Just curious.


It could be. It could be ecollar, it could be prong, it could be a poke to the ribs, it could be a wack with a crop stick, it could be throwing your car keys at the dog.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> This book I just got, "The other end of the leash" says not to give a command right on top of a "No". Like "No,Sit" or "No,Stay". Says you are giving conflicting information as they associate the No with the command.


I agree with this,but if I say NO then pause a second,my dog will stop what he is doing and look at me.Then I give him an alternative behavior to do instead.So if he starts to run after some critter,it's NO,he pauses and looks at me,then COME.It's a timing thing.Excellent book BTW.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Prager said:


> Ha good post. Well actually excellent post. Except in another thread you advocated hitting the dog. Is that your consequence after you say "NO!" Just curious.


It could be. It could be ecollar, it could be prong, it could be a poke to the ribs, it could be a wack with a crop stick, it could be throwing your car keys at the dog.

Let me give you an example. Usually when I punish my dogs I cradle their heads in my left hand and slap the left side of their heads with my right hand. The intensity of that depends on the situation but it usually isn't very hard because now most of the punishment is social because of our relationship as it stands now. If that isn't enough and the behavior is repeated soon after I will escalate. They know this.

Now why do I correct like that? Because when I show affection I again cradle the dogs head in my left hand the very same way and I pet the left side of the dogs face with my right hand. My dogs are not hand shy because my hands or body is never punishing unless they hear me mark them with a no. They discriminate. I don't punish my dogs often because I am super clear and correct in my methods and the vast majority of my time with them is spent loving showing affection playing with them and having good time. I don't harbor resentment and neither do they. Punishment is super matter of fact and as soon as behavior improves we are past it just like that.

I don't need corrective collars or tools to enforce the rules with my dogs and they know it. They don't run because they know the consequence is unavoidable in fact usually they come to recieve the punishment and get it over with because they know I will lessen the intensity of the consequence if they do.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Stonevintage said:


> This book I just got, "The other end of the leash" says not to give a command right on top of a "No". Like "No,Sit" or "No,Stay". Says you are giving conflicting information as they associate the No with the command.





dogma13 said:


> I agree with this,but if I say NO then pause a second,my dog will stop what he is doing and look at me.Then I give him an alternative behavior to do instead.So if he starts to run after some critter,it's NO,he pauses and looks at me,then COME.It's a timing thing.


The thing with this, and any other command you give, is that dogs do not understand English. They don't hear a sentence with a qualifier like we would. So saying it quickly together could be confusing because it's jumbling words, but if you take the time to teach it as a no reward marker, and get your timing down like dogma is saying, then it's just a tool to let the dog know that the behavior they are currently engaging in is wrong, and by giving them an alternate command after they redirect their focus, you're giving them an opportunity to do something right. Instead of thinking, "Ok, that was wrong, let me try 50 million other behaviors until I happen to land on the right one..." you're taking out the guesswork.
I found a pretty good explanation of marker training and the use of the "No" marker on the Leerburg site:
Leerburg | The Power of Training Dogs with Markers


In response to the other conversation going on, sure, you could punish your dog into listening, and into understanding "No" means to shut down. But I didn't get a working line sport puppy to be an ornament on the floor. I got it because it's super fun working together to achieve a goal, and I love that my puppy is interested in training and constantly curious about and excited to try new things. Why would I want to punish out curiosity and thinking when I can just as easily redirect it and mold it instead? Do I want a dog that is excited to be a partner, or a dog that is only listening because of the fear of consequences? I don't feel the need to prove my superiority to my dog when I can just guide her instead.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

First of all I explained punishment for things that I do not want to see the dog do in the future. Second of all I have high energy high performance Belgian Malinois. They are not punished into shutting down. Your use of this language reflects a misunderstanding on the use and function of aversives. They are trained to avoid very specific behaviors I don't want to see repeated through use of punishment but this does not somehow magically ruin their sense of curiosity or hinder their desire to explore the world. The clarity and consistency eliminate fear because it makes it very clear how to avoid the consequence. The dog remains happy and in drive as a result.

I was adressing my use of punishment specifically positive punishment only. Guess what? I am aware there are three other quadrants and I think my post makes it pretty clear I use all of them. This includes positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement to build behaviors I do want to see. If you bother watching my videos you will see happy active intensely focused dogs that love to train. Punishment done right is a small part of training but for high performance training and training in general it is critical to finishing a dog.


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## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

I don't misunderstand aversives, I just question why you would give advice about hitting your dog to someone that obviously is very new and doesn't understand the nuances of motivation and training. Just because I prefer to motivate using other methods doesn't mean I don't ever use aversives, anyway, it's just that I would prefer to only use them on a dog that understands what I'm asking of it. I also think it's a LOT easier for someone new to use other methods, as it's harder to screw up your dog. Maybe YOUR dogs aren't hand shy and still love to work, but if someone comes in with the question "How do you teach your dog no?", chances are pretty good that advising them to smack their dog in the face isn't going to get the results you're after. ANY training with aversives should be done with the direct supervision of someone that knows what the h*ll they're doing, not random strangers on the internet that can't see things first hand.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Like "No,Sit" or "No,Stay". Says you are giving conflicting information as they associate the No with the command.


Patricia is a great trainer, but my experience proved otherwise. "No" works as a command to pause moving forward, sniffing or anything and look at you. Only then "Come" or whatever. It could be pronounced faster and without your dog looking at you (he should look but you don't have to wait) a bit later in training. Dogs learn through repetitions in different situations, and, if you keep it in your mind to train "no" better - you would see such situations, or even predict them.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In bold. I know you are a skilled trainer but that's pretty darn high functioning reasoning for a dog? 


(P.s. The slapping in the head advice, what Wolfenstein said, not wise to share with newbies....I know we've gone around about it but if someone has lousy timing and consistency they will end up bitten and/or have a head shy dog). 



Baillif said:


> I don't need corrective collars or tools to enforce the rules with my dogs and they know it. They don't run because they know the consequence is unavoidable in fact usually* they come to recieve the punishment and get it over with because they know I will lessen the intensity of the consequence if they do.*


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> Patricia is a great trainer, but my experience proved otherwise. "No" works as a command to pause moving forward, sniffing or anything and look at you. Only then "Come" or whatever. It could be pronounced faster and without your dog looking at you (he should look but you don't have to wait) a bit later in training. Dogs learn through repetitions in different situations, and, if you keep it in your mind to train "no" better - you would see such situations, or even predict them.


My mind keeps going to worse case scenario. A life threatening situation with a lot of distractions going on. Lets say your dog got out and has crossed a busy lane of traffic. You find him, he has been lost for some time and he is freaked out and scared.

He sees you from across the busy street and begins running directly for you....you need him in a stay immediately and not to break until you can get to him. Which method would be more reliable? My leaning (and only for certain commands) would be toward Bailiff's (2nd layer) of training which is the only thing I can see working in such an adverse situation.

Is positive only effective in a situation like this, when every fiber in their body tells them to run to their owner?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Is positive only effective


Never risk untrained dog, train off leash in safe areas with people, birds, cats and safe dogs. People want results quickly, but commands are learned in situations, and situations do not occur often enough. You should be absolutely sure that your dog would listen to you if you are crossing the road off leash on heel command, absolutely sure that he wouldn't run after his ball under wheels when you say "No" letting him off leash. It simply takes time.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I'm still in the " nothing but good when they come to me" camp.

SuperG


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Stonevintage,God forbid that situation coming up! When I lived in the city I trained my sheltie to drop and stay at a distance.He always wanted to come all the way to me before dropping down so to teach him to stop immediately on my signal(arm pointed straight up) I threw a choke chain in front of him as I raised my arm.It startled him,he stopped and dropped.He was 100% reliable after that.
I guess there are certain things that you must impress on your dog that must always obey.


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## kelliewilson (Jan 1, 2015)

Baillif said:


> It could be. It could be ecollar, it could be prong, it could be a poke to the ribs, it could be a wack with a crop stick, it could be throwing your car keys at the dog.
> 
> Let me give you an example. Usually when I punish my dogs I cradle their heads in my left hand and slap the left side of their heads with my right hand. The intensity of that depends on the situation but it usually isn't very hard because now most of the punishment is social because of our relationship as it stands now. If that isn't enough and the behavior is repeated soon after I will escalate. They know this.
> 
> ...


 sounds horrible and mean. I think you should not be around dogs or kids


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## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

kelliewilson said:


> sounds horrible and mean. I think you should not be around dogs or kids


Why?
The poster is very knowledgeable and has great dogs that are well taken care of and trained right.


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## kelliewilson (Jan 1, 2015)

He holds there heads and hits them. thats not training thats abuse


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

kelliewilson said:


> He holds there heads and hits them. thats not training thats abuse


Have you ever trained a dog before? I mean really trained a dog? Not the he listens if hes in my living room 70% of the time training. I mean really trained a dog in real world conditions with real distractions with 97-99% accuracy on behaviors you ask of them with single commands?


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> It could be. It could be ecollar, it could be prong, it could be a poke to the ribs, it could be a wack with a crop stick, it could be throwing your car keys at the dog.
> 
> Let me give you an example. Usually when I punish my dogs I cradle their heads in my left hand and slap the left side of their heads with my right hand.


and


> I don't need corrective collars or tools to enforce the rules with my dogs


Very interesting!
I can guess what... Like everyone, who progresses in training skills, the author of these words found the use of prongs and sticks unnecessary some time ago, then just slaps, after that just specific voice intonations would seem to be enough, the next stage - he will see, that nothing, absolutely nothing you need to do to the dog - if your dog lives in anticipation of your command. Why I say that? Because I was through all these stages.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

When you get a dog through an IPO 1 then you can pretend to train without corrections.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> Never risk untrained dog, train off leash in safe areas with people, birds, cats and safe dogs. People want results quickly, but commands are learned in situations, and situations do not occur often enough. You should be absolutely sure that your dog would listen to you if you are crossing the road off leash on heel command, absolutely sure that he wouldn't run after his ball under wheels when you say "No" letting him off leash. It simply takes time.


And, that what scares me. I understand what you are saying, though training a dog to heel or not chase a ball would be easier than the scenario I submitted. What percentage of pet dogs do you think are trained to that level? Even trained at the level of heeling off leash with owner crossing a busy street - I think I've seen 2 in the last 20 years. 

I know it happens at the highest levels of training, but even LE has their dogs leashed until within direct range of the area of performance... why is that?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Have you ever trained a dog before? I mean really trained a dog? Not the he listens if hes in my living room 70% of the time training. I mean really trained a dog in real world conditions with real distractions with 97-99% accuracy on behaviors you ask of them with single commands?


Do you think there are limitations with range/distance, in situations where distance is "new" - not conditioned and out of the ordinary?

My pup is excellent on every command in the house, not the yard and certainly not in the situation I described. You conditioned your dogs with crazy distractions, but would they still respond in the same way if they were 100+ feet away in an uncontrolled, unconditioned environment?

Why do they respond so well at close quarters and fall apart with distance they are not accustomed to? Stupid question - sorry - I'm a newby and trying to understand if it's possible to give a command without many hours of pre conditioning to a certain situation or environment. At this point, I think not....


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> I know it happens at the highest levels of training, but even LE has their dogs leashed until within direct range of the area of performance... why is that?


Because, it depends how you feel about it. Different days you do differently, we are not the programmed robots to experience one and the same inner state. Your dog is different every day too. Sometimes your mental state affects her, sometimes vice versa. I don't like to feel tense with my dog off leash, I would always leash her. But the majority of days I walk with her off leash and think about something very abstract from any dog training, even if we are going to train another dog in a short while. Only if you feel relaxed and confident - only then you can afford to walk your dog off leash in risky situations.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

When you use punishment properly in proofing it bleeds over into other scenarios. So when I train pets to do a place stay in a room on a kuranda bed in a room and I proof it in 15-30 minutes then we move that kuranda bed into the middle of a park with the class of dogs all being held by their handlers standing around as distractions as well as everything else in that park and then they are asked to hold that place stay in the park they might mess up 1-2 times but then very quickly they hold the place stay even in that new scenario and many times they might not even mess up at all.

Generalization is harder to get when you're having to use negative punishment or using positive reinforcement. When you begin to properly use aversives the behavior generalizes much faster and you don't need to proof for every picture under the sun. So I didn't have to proof Crank with those dogs. He was sent into that situation for the first time and he got it done. Has he seen other scenarios? Sure, but he doesn't need to be proofed for every eventuality. 

Now for an extreme change if I were to ask for positions from 100 feet away in a new environment would it happen? Maybe not the first time, because 100 feet away is extreme for something like positions, but after the consequence occurs for him not listening he would figure it out very quickly. I have never tried it because it isn't ever something that would happen in mondioring but I could train for it in one session.

For something like a recall because longer distances are common it would happen, though. If I put him on the other side of a football field and I recalled him he would come the first time on the first command even though I've never done that far a distance before 50 yards looks close enough to 100 in the eye of a dog.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank you for responding. I must admit, I was looking for commonality between the two disciplines to develop my training. "The use of adversives, behavior generalizes much faster and you don't need to proof for every picture under the sun". Makes perfect sense to me as I have been calling it "the second layer" of obeying a command for lack of a better term.

That's my take away. As a pet owner, frankly - I don't see a difference from your "correction" method over an electronic collar, though I have no intention of using either one - maybe a milder approach to your method though. I think people just want to "minimize" the "correction connection" -in their own mind- as in "it wasn't me, it was the device" displacing the negative feelings. That's BS to me and very superficial. 

On the other hand, the fact that you state that the "correction" is ALWAYS administered seems wrong as others have pointed out. I agree, that if you mete out discipline after the event is over, it is not meaningful. And I think your statement that they come to you for punishment right away as to lessen the severity - is like the people who use correction collars in the wrong way - an excuse.....

In the other school, I don't really see how you would get obedience to a command, if it were solely at the dog's will, particularly in an unconditioned emergency situation. Leaving a crucial command up to the will of the dog because "you train with love and conditioning" could get them killed. Which would jump through a ring of fire and which would think - Not!?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

David Winners said:


> No is generally conditioned punishment. The commands is given, followed by a correction. If the dog stops what it is doing, it avoids the correction. It's important to follow the correction with guidance, such as "NO, SIT" so the dog understands how to avoid the correction.
> 
> Chip, so how do you train this intuitive command? No means "stop doing whatever it is that you're doing right freaking now." How do you communicate that to the dog without some type of punishment?


Wrath of God voice. Navy Brat, my Dad was a CPO when he said 'NO" you stopped what you were doing! You did not want to know what came next! "NO" worked just fine with my Boxers, Boxer/APBT and Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab mix.

"No" worked just fine for me until...my GSD! My other dogs, I was the unquestioned "leader" my GSD training was fine but "mangement" and "leadership" even after 7 months was still (apparently) not sufficient with Rocky!

High Rank Drive way over threshold "issues." Restrictions on corrections because of his "Wobblers" or I would have used a drag leash and a Dominant dog collar on him!

To your point...I think? "NO" did not work on him, I was to late and he was to fast! 

Once a dog goes over threshold they can "no" longer hear you! I found that out the hardway!  

I did enough right that he "never" came up leash on me and I did solve his "people issue" by "showing him" how I expected him to behave. 

"You" told me about the leash pop on the head with the loose end of the leash. That worked, when...yet again with "my" GSD "NO" failed (barking dogs behind a fence) on walks while I stopped, was the issue.

So yeah some dogs "seem" to be "NO" proof and for those dogs "NO" does have to be followed with consequences! 

Not every dog is like mine (I hear that a lot) but it seems a lot are.  So you have to be flexible.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> On the other hand, the fact that you state that the "correction" is ALWAYS administered seems wrong as others have pointed out. I agree, that if you mete out discipline after the event is over, it is not meaningful. And I think your statement that they come to you for punishment right away as to lessen the severity - is like the people who use correction collars in the wrong way - an excuse.....


The correction is always administered if you have to say "No" because the dog was wrong. If you are doing it right the dog will very rarely choose to disobey because that choice always ends badly for the dog vs doing the right behavior. 

You don't understand training.

The connection between who is delivering the consequence in the case of doing it physically aka the hand vs the e collar is a real thing it isn't just in the mind of the trainer.

If you were to set up a situation where you black and white trained a dog that didn't know you for a recall in the following way you would see it.

You call the dog by name and act in an inviting way. In one case you mark the refusal to come with a no and walk over and smack the dog on the muzzle.

In the other you mark the dog for the refusal to come and you stim the dog at a fairly high level with the collar.

If either dog comes you celebrate immediately once they show the commitment to come and show affection to the dog.

In that scenario the dog being stimmed with ecollar will more readily come to you quicker. Why? Because the dog with the ecollar doesn't have a residual emotional hesitation to come to you because it doesn't link you with the event of the stim. You just end up the guy warning the dog an praising like crazy and petting him when he does the right thing. In the other case you are physically correcting the dog and it is very clear where it is coming from.

Once you develop a relationship with the dog and the dog likes you and realizes the physical correction only happens in response to the refusal to follow a command the dog starts to make the connection that it has to listen to you and take what you have to say seriously regardless of whether or not a collar or other tool is in place. In the end the physical more personal correction IMO ends up being the better deal, especially if you are involved in a sport where you can't use collars on the field.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Once again Chip - I can relate. My pup knows the basic commands inside and out. She needs a "reason why not" to ignore them and right now, there isn't any. Treats no longer work, I can start her on the ball, but I can see very shortly when that will no longer work either (within days). In the house, I have never hit her or anything like that, however, I have rolled up a magazine or newspaper and smacked against a table top to make a noise and it puts her into immediate obey. 

Outside, She has this point, when I give her a command and she's at a distance - she just lowers her head and stares at me lately. I'm about done with the standoff. 

I have not been thru this with my previous 3 GSD's. So, this is new to me too. 

I would like a basic explanation as to why, now that she's trained in the house (I can whisper a command or hand signal and she immediately obeys over a dozen commands) yet the minute she's out of the house, she does as she pleases (if there is not a break due to stress, that can only be attributed to lack of consequence). I don't feel I have to slap her or shock her, but I need to find something as simple and effective as a rolled up magazine smacked on a tabletop to get her attention that works outside.

The stuff I was asking tonight, with the two trainers, was much more advanced, but I was hoping for an answer either way which could get the two most important life saving commands to be obeyed no matter what the unusual distractions or location - sit and stay regardless of the distractions. Guess not a possibility without the hundreds of hours these guys put into training... But, I'm not done yet trying to find a way


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> The correction is always administered if you have to say "No" because the dog was wrong. If you are doing it right the dog will very rarely choose to disobey because that choice always ends badly for the dog vs doing the right behavior.
> 
> You don't understand training.
> 
> ...


And, bottom line, which would be your recommendation for the pet owner? I can tell you right now, In Every case, where I have seen an unprofessional correct a dog physically, there are obvious signs of uncertainty every time the owner reaches his hand out to pet his dog..... this may be due to incorrect timing, giving a confusing command a whole plethora of things that a dog owner with no professional training is likely to do through mistakes made, unless you are a pro, how can this be done right?


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It isn't an issue with timing it's because it isn't marked. Always mark it and when its marked its punishing and when its not its not. It doesn't take the dog long to figure this out.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

People who keep saying just saying no in some kind of booming fear of God voice is enough to stop a dog from engaging in a particular behavior without a consequence behind it always make me laugh. I train through 300 or so dogs a year and it doesn't work to a standard I would consider worthwhile on the vast majority of dogs. Maybe the first few times you do it but dogs quickly begin to ignore it as noise loud as it may be even when there's a a prior history of conditioning with a consequence.

Michael Ellis even has a video floating out there about how social pressure which is essentially what you're using has to be used sparingly because it's effectiveness is used up so quickly.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Baillif -

The problem is you are asking people to suspend disbelief too much. 

Calling a dog to you to punish it by smacking it in the face is just too much.

This does NOT equate to a total rejection of the great information you share with us but even for me it's pushing it.

Here are the logical problems with the statement specific to calling a dog to you and smacking it in the face:

1) A dog running faster TO you to receive punishment that will be lesser really is endowing the dog with a heck of a lot more cognitive, intentional planning then it is generally believed they are capable of.

2) Most people do not have your experience nor learned and innate skills in timing and consistency.

3) The chances of calling, punishing and slapping a dog in it's face with your hand does have a greater possibility of backfiring badly, see 2) above.

4) People using punishment/correction *in*correctly will cause a negative perception that reinforces the PO crowd.

Repsectfully,

The creator of "Karen's Cat Fallacy" (remember?)






Baillif said:


> People who keep saying just saying no in some kind of booming fear of God voice is enough to stop a dog from engaging in a particular behavior without a consequence behind it always make me laugh. I train through 300 or so dogs a year and it doesn't work to a standard I would consider worthwhile on the vast majority of dogs. Maybe the first few times you do it but dogs quickly begin to ignore it as noise loud as it may be even when there's a a prior history of conditioning with a consequence.
> 
> Michael Ellis even has a video floating out there about how social pressure which is essentially what you're using has to be used sparingly because it's effectiveness is used up so quickly.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

To clarify... there are two 'fronts', if you will, in this discussion.

Some PO people (whose camp I am not in)

Some people who are O.K. with the proper use of corrections/aversives/punishment but balk at the idea slapping a dog in the face (especially with a recall). I'm in this camp.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It doesn't take great cognitive ability for a dog to descriminate the difference in consequences between two different actions. They show descrimination in other areas where a "this is a better option" situations emerge such as food preferences. ****, discriminating between the results of different actions and picking a preferable option is the core foundation behind training in the first place.

There is on some level probably a measure of negative reinforcement occurring on some level that causes them to approach. It is essentially a shaped behavior caused by a gradient in pressure. It isn't an exercise in advanced cognitive thinking for the dog.

As for being physical with a dog possibly causing backfiring in terms of a dog retaliating it is possible. It is probably much much more of a rare event than you think. If you have a dog where that isn't a good option obviously you don't do that you go with an e collar or something less personal that decreases the odds a dog goes after you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

If a dog discovers it can escape pressure by attacking you then you have trained the dog to attack you when you put that pressure on the dog. Obviously you avoid that situation if possible or find a way to prevent the dog from learning that behavior gets desirable results.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

^^^That pretty much sums it up.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Also I should clarify that it isn't necessarily the punishment which causes a speedy recall. The punishment ensures the recall is the choice the dog makes. Speed is created and conditioned from the positive reinforcement toy, affection, any negative reinforcement you use or food reward. You know I use all four quadrants to create behaviors and make them look like I want them to look. I am just talking about punishment because it is the least understood half of the quadrant. Especially positive punishment since it is taboo in many circles.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

2 points.

*First* *specifically* regarding the reasoning of a dog recalling to receive a lesser punishment. 

What you are claiming is that a dog is capable of the following thought sequence:

"I have disobeyed, I am due for punishment for disobeying. If I avoid punishment the punishment will be worse. If I obey the recall the punishment will be less."

The dog then chooses continued avoidance or *to receive lesser punishment*.

That's pushing it Baillif, even for a talented trainer like yourself.


How much time elapses for the average dog between the moment he disobeyed and then receives a punishment upon being recalled, given *the average pet owner* will do this in usually a frustrated tone of voice "Come 'ere Fluffy, Fluffy get over 'ere now, Fluffy, c'mon come to momma, Fluffy GET HERE NOW" Finally Fluffy slinks over and gets cuffed.



*Second, specifically *regarding slapping or hitting a dog *in the face* as punishment.

I've known many horses that were severely head shy. When an animal is hit in the face it often becomes head shy. Even giving the benefit of the doubt that this technique can be done properly the fact is *most* people cannot do this properly. 

With a dog the person slapping the dog in the face has their hand in very close proximity to the dog's mouth. Most dogs have faster physical reaction speed then humans. So you take an inconsistent human slapping a dog in the face it follows that the chances that the human will be bit increases. 

Even if what you are sharing here is within the bounds of possibility it happens to also increase the chances of failure. Therefore it follows, the risks for *the average pet dog owner *outweigh any benefit it may bring.

You also know, darn well, that the average Joe dog owner fancies themselves experts and do not usually employ any humility as addressed by your post in blue below. 

Note, I'm bolding the points you have been skipping over and are not addressing. 




Baillif said:


> It doesn't take great cognitive ability for a dog to descriminate the difference in consequences between two different actions. They show descrimination in other areas where a "this is a better option" situations emerge such as food preferences. ****, discriminating between the results of different actions and picking a preferable option is the core foundation behind training in the first place.
> 
> There is on some level probably a measure of negative reinforcement occurring on some level that causes them to approach. It is essentially a shaped behavior caused by a gradient in pressure. It isn't an exercise in advanced cognitive thinking for the dog.
> 
> As for being physical with a dog possibly causing backfiring in terms of a dog retaliating it is possible. It is probably much much more of a rare event than you think. If you have a dog where that isn't a good option obviously you don't do that you go with an e collar or something less personal that decreases the odds a dog goes after you.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> 2 points.
> 
> *First* *specifically* regarding the reasoning of a dog recalling to receive a lesser punishment.
> 
> ...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The truly "average" pet owner can't even grasp the no "Dog Parks" concept. Bailiff's post provide fascinating insight for those of us "above" average. We might not get all of it at times but he does make us think? 

I doubt JQP is going to read one of his post and think..."I can slap my dog into compliance??" 

I get what Bailliff is saying and Stonevintage's post make sense also. If this site get's dumbed down to the lowest denominator, then what's the point???

And for the record "slapping" my dog is also an alien concept for me. That does not mean it doesn't work..it just means "I'm" not that skilled.

I was good enough to get the "NO" command down with my other dogs...my GSD...not so much! But...now I know.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

I agree with the advice from your 1st response from Madlab.
I wouldn't use "no" it is too generalized. I'd give a command: down, off, leave it, bed (for go into your bed), quiet. All of this comes with consistent training over a period of time.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's a shaped behavior it isn't explained by dominance or pack theory. It is accomplished through operant conditioning. I have a process that causes it to happen. It sounds ridiculous when you think of it in terms of a reasoned internal monologue on the part of the dog.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Baillif said:


> It's a shaped behavior it isn't explained by dominance or pack theory. It is accomplished through operant conditioning. I have a process that causes it to happen. It sounds ridiculous when you think of it in terms of a reasoned internal monologue on the part of the dog.


Thanks for taking the time to share!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Long story short you mark and punish wrong choices. Dog tries to evade punishment no that's wrong. Dog lays down and takes it you go easy. Dog comes toward you because its worked to turn off pressure in a situation like recalls before and you go even easier and they learn through trial and error the consequence is unavoidable but is lessened by manning up and coming to take the medicine so to speak. It's shaped.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Do you see fight or flee? No, the offender approaches the alpha for his punishment, often lying down with his belly up and neck exposed. Why? Because he knows the consequences will be worse if he doesn't. The only time a subordinate wolf fights the alpha back is in a challenge for the alpha position. If for some reason the subordinate does not present himself to the alpha for punishment - well, wolves being wolves, he will be driven off from the pack or killed (often with every pack member joining in).


Alpha is very rarily challenged at all, mainly he comes to two Betas to stop fights, subordinates never challenge alpha, unless that dog makes a mistake. The dog in such scenario is a newcomer, whose presence the majority of dogs accepted, but he doesn't know who is the leader and tries to find out it himself by challenging every dog. Newcomers feel themselves invaders and always behave agressively. Normally alpha bites newcomer severely, that one recognises him and tries to gain his favour. Does alpha bite that subordinate who crawls in front of him? No. He ignores him. He ignores him the next day, and the day after. That subordinate becomes an outcast, the whole pack starts to avoid him. Stress takes over him, he feels very nervous, and only he tried to expose agression to any dog - the whole pack as one attack him and kill.
If you slap your dog on his face every time he runs back to you - he will simply get used to it thinking of it as something normal. Reinforcing the dog to run to you unstead of walking or trotting by slapping him? And what comes after slapping? Stroking? Or "sit" command, then stroking? Mind, we are talking about training, your dog should remember the sequence you set for him.

What, actually, we are talking about - solid "No", or solid recall? Why would you need to use "No" on long distance from your dog? Working with your dog on distance require commands by gesture and clicker, you don't have to shout any "No" when he sees a rabbit, just train him to obey your whistle signal and he will turn back.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif said:


> It's a shaped behavior it isn't explained by dominance or pack theory. It is accomplished through operant conditioning. I have a process that causes it to happen. It sounds ridiculous when you think of it in terms of a reasoned internal monologue on the part of the dog.


Baillif - your absolutely correct. I had no idea that the whole concept of wolf pack hierarchy was pretty much thrown in the trash.

I have been carrying this book around since 1970. "The Wolf" by L. David Mech. Here is the article to his 2008 explanation on why his views changed. 4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf 

This man is like an icon to me, he's studied wolves in the field for over 50 years now. We had a local issue here involving a group of anti-wolf hunters that were planning to introduce Parvo infected puppies so the wolves would eat them and get infected. I reported it to local Fish & Game and the next thing I know, I'm involved in a 6 person conference call and L. David Mech was asking me the questions. 

Although, there are yet again, new questions on the most recent line of thinking with the studies of the Yellowstone packs. It's a good article. My apologies for not being more informed on these developments.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

David Taggart said:


> Alpha is very rarily challenged at all, mainly he comes to two Betas to stop fights, subordinates never challenge alpha, unless that dog makes a mistake. The dog in such scenario is a newcomer, whose presence the majority of dogs accepted, but he doesn't know who is the leader and tries to find out it himself by challenging every dog. Newcomers feel themselves invaders and always behave agressively. Normally alpha bites newcomer severely, that one recognises him and tries to gain his favour. Does alpha bite that subordinate who crawls in front of him? No. He ignores him. He ignores him the next day, and the day after. That subordinate becomes an outcast, the whole pack starts to avoid him. Stress takes over him, he feels very nervous, and only he tried to expose agression to any dog - the whole pack as one attack him and kill.
> 
> Take a look at this article David - It really surprised me.
> 
> 4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Baillif - your absolutely correct. I had no idea that the whole concept of wolf pack hierarchy was pretty much thrown in the trash.
> t's a good article. My apologies for not being more informed on these developments.


Well I did know it had been thrown out, it's all academic to me.

Behaviour shaping through slapping is out of my league. But interesting nonetheless 

But since I followed you into the quicksand I will extend my apologies also.:blush:

Carry on all.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Yup. Dogs are contextual learners. Dominance theory was debunked long ago. Training is about shaping the dogs behavior through desirable and undesirable outcomes associated with specific behaviors. It has nothing to do with who's alpha or rolling dogs or whatever. So much of the dog training arguments these days are framed around the force free trainers (the possies) and the dominance theorists and they're both wrong. Dominance trainers because their ideas of behavior are grounded in a false paradigm and the possies because they neglect one whole half of the operant conditioning quadrant (R- and P+). They claim to be the science backed ones but neglect an entire half of the science because it doesn't fit their agenda. To make this mistake is to miss out on techniques and ideas that can really help some dogs that otherwise can't be helped by those stuck in those two camps.


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## David Taggart (Nov 25, 2012)

> Take a look at this article David - It really surprised me.


David Mech, of course, is a big figure, but there are so many authors! Wolf pack has a simple organic order, if these wolves weren't placed in one territory artificially. But, there are other situations occur, sometimes woulves solely or in pairs swap the packs, especially in times of farmine, when they have to expand their hunting grounds. A meeting of two alphas is very rare, but it happens. Dogs are more tolerant creatures than wolves, but they show absolutely the same behaviour. That, which Mech mentions as "artificial pack" - we can watch so often in the doggie parks. Only a pack was formed - there happens to be yet another newcomer, and another, and one more every day. And the owners are talking about manners when two alphas fight! Many dogs would never come there themselves. But, what if you are an "alpha-trainer", and you challenge alpha male( alpha in his own group )? You, a stranger, thatrepresents a newcomer for him? 10 days together with his owner, or one month - his attitude towards you wouldn't change until you challenge him physically. You should be very skilled for doing that and you should know your limits, otherwise you would be badly bitten. For the majority of agressive dogs I trained it happened only once, but I have never beaten any dog. Sometimes I have to grab dog on his muzzle and hold by upper jaw with one hand and by his collar withthe other until he becomes motionless, sometimes just advancing on the dog was enough. You have to remind your dog about this encounter when necessary, normally by taking him by his collar and taking same position as it was that moment. I wouldn't call my behaviour as "punishment". Don't remember anything like that with a female. By beating your dog you show her that you can be in conflict with her, and believe me, this conflict will never end.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I was looking at the Innoteck Spray Commander. Does not shock, sprays citronella. Has remote - 2 tones. 

Any experience or feedback on this tool? Thanks!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Stonevintage said:


> I was looking at the Innoteck Spray Commander. Does not shock, sprays citronella. Has remote - 2 tones.
> 
> Any experience or feedback on this tool? Thanks!


I've used it. It sucks. You have to replace the citronella spray constantly which is expensive.



Shiro is really not understanding "No". It doesn't matter how angry or intimidating you say it, he just stares at you blankly and ignores it, or worse, he play bows then tries to play with you.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Syaoransbear said:


> I've used it. It sucks. You have to replace the citronella spray constantly which is expensive.
> 
> 
> 
> Shiro is really not understanding "No". It doesn't matter how angry or intimidating you say it, he just stares at you blankly and ignores it, or worse, he play bows then tries to play with you.


That's exactly what mine does. Darn, have to keep looking. Thanks for heads up.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> I was looking at the Innoteck Spray Commander. Does not shock, sprays citronella. Has remote - 2 tones.
> 
> Any experience or feedback on this tool? Thanks!



I know nothing about it except it should help keep the mosquitoes away.


SuperG


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

It's a stupid invention. Using a sprayed scent which dwells after the correction and lacks clarity and on top of that dwells to allow the dog to desensitize to it.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

I think your telling to much truth for some folks on here...


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> I think your telling to much truth for some folks on here...


 Do tell and lots of us like it.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm not too keen on comparing dogs to wolves. Dogs evolved away from their wild ancestors in a symbiotic relationship with human beings. In so doing their behaviors changed, adapted, to a new survival paradigm. As our friend Baillif has rightly noted, a lot of theories comparing dogs to wolf behavior has been pretty well debunked.

Having said that...  I'm not a wolf expert by any stretch but I am a Nat. Geo Nature program junkie and when wolves (or dogs ) 'submit' they aren't very 'up' or happy about it. They slink and droop. That's not good OB.

I deal with average Joe pet owners daily and not as a trainer. So you could say I see the unabashed 'raw' version of their day to day handling of dogs. Most of them follow the 'Fluffy' scenario I posted earlier. It's not pretty.

It's not anywhere close to the picture Baillif shows in his videos with Zebu and Crank. 

I'm sticking with the 'never punish a dog after recall' camp. 

The problem is the margin of error for the average handler is too wide with this. 



Stonevintage said:


> Back to the wolf pack to try to explain this, it makes more sense in my mind anyway.
> 
> One of the alpha wolves duties are to administer punishment when a beta or subordinate mess up or breaks a rule.
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

In blue. 

Hitting a dog in the face, even with some of the caveats mentioned by Baillif, is not good advice to give on the internet. Even Baillif has mentioned a lot of 'ifs'.

I also asked Baillif (and feel free to jump in Baillif) if he teaches his 'pet' clients to use the technique *specifically of slapping the dog in the face*. He never answered me. 

I want to reiterate that this face slapping, it's ONLY this one point that I balk at. I really appreciate Baillif sharing here and clearly he is a talented trainer. He wrote something a couple of months ago that really stuck with me, _being inconsistent with punishment is abusive_. Now add into that being inconsistent with slapping a dog in the face with your hand? See?

As for me and my dogs, for the foreseeable future, no face slapping. Mostly because like you (in blue) I don't feel confident enough that any benefits it may bring are worth the increased risk of me screwing up, getting bit or damaging my relationship with my dogs. Further, it flies in the face (no pun intended) of my years and years of working with horses and the professional training I've received thus far with dogs, from bite sport trainers IRL too.



BTW I do agree with you that many, many of the people here are above average in that they really do desire to learn and improve their training, handling and relationships with their dog. 





Chip18 said:


> The truly "average" pet owner can't even grasp the no "Dog Parks" concept. Bailiff's post provide fascinating insight for those of us "above" average. We might not get all of it at times but he does make us think?
> 
> I doubt JQP is going to read one of his post and think..."I can slap my dog into compliance??"
> 
> ...


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Baillif who did you learn about the face slapping from? Is that a technique Ivan uses? Just curious.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't usually teach it to clients normally we just teach the e collar now and leave it at that. For some clients that want to get it with their hands usually I start them on pokes or something like that.

The face slap thing is me. I do it because it is more effective with my dogs than pokes and it also requires me to stabalize the dog. During punishment this is important because R- and P+ are two sides of the same coin. During punishment if your dog is still moving or attempting to avoid a poke or something like that but still with you your punishment for one behavior can be negative reinforcement for that new wiggly behavior and I like to keep that sort of thing very very clear to the dog.

If you saw the ease at which the dog gets marked comes over puts his head in my left hand gets his pop and that's the end of it you'd be like holy crap that's amazing. You have the wrong idea in your head. 

The ease with which I can balance it out is also key. I pet my dogs faces far more often than the body. They get more opportunity to experience what it is and what it is not.

I fly in the face of a lot of what is taught in training. 

Ivan when it comes to operant and classical conditioning and the practical real world application of it in training is a genius. If he was academic he would eclipse BF SKinner in his work. Lots of people appreciate him as a trainer and a competitor but don't see the thinker behind all of that.

You shouldn't get so caught up on my chosen vehicle of punishment. It isn't all that important. I can and do use others. I do have advanced reasoning behind why I do it though. Most of it revolves around making sure the dog sees it as positive punishment for the target behavior and prevention of the dog seeing negative reinforcement for any other behavior that might emerge out of that punishment event.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

The way in which a dog sees and recieves its punishment is in itself a moldable behavior. There can be punishment and reward within punishment. Punishmentception.

Just like there can be unintentional punishments within rewards.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Baillif I appreciate your response.

I'm with you on the overall theory. So glad you are helping to debunk dominance theory!

I tried to open my mind to slapping in the head/face as a form of punishment but just cannot go there. 

I respect the fact that you understand the limitations of your pet clients. The thing is with slapping an animal in the face, the chances of them becoming head shy is great. Protecting ones head area and eyes is so deeply instinctual.

In my experience with horses once they are head shy it's really, really hard to get them over it.

Just for the record I'd be very comfortable hiring you as a trainer.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't know about horses and hand shyness. There may be something about their ethology that would make a face slap cause hand shyness regardless of whether or not you took steps to mark the punishment and even things out later. I do know for a fact it isn't an issue with dogs unless you don't mark your punishments or are inconsistent about it. 

I suspect herd animals like horses and non predatory animals are more sensitive to punishing events and negative reinforcement than animals that are predatory. 

I will say this though. I am super consistent about marking punishments. I can swing my hand at my dogs faces and stop just short of striking them and they won't flinch. In fact if I did they usually think I am playing with them and they might try to jump up and horse around. 

Same thing with people who correct with sticks. I'm sure many of you know old school IPO guys that use heeling sticks. When they're doing it right the dogs aren't afraid of those sticks and they get popped with them all the time.


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## kelliewilson (Jan 1, 2015)

Baillif said:


> Have you ever trained a dog before? I mean really trained a dog? Not the he listens if hes in my living room 70% of the time training. I mean really trained a dog in real world conditions with real distractions with 97-99% accuracy on behaviors you ask of them with single commands?


Yes I have really trained a dog before. I had a black gs I trained from a book, I trained her in hand singles. she would do what she was suppose to do, she had the stay down so good I could walk her with me off leash to take the kids to school and on the way there was a park I would tell her to sit and stay while I walked the kids the rest of the way to school I would come back and she would be in the same place, with kids and distractions. so Yes i have. did I hit the dog... NO. gs want to please you. so no shaming just trust and I think it has alot to do with your bond there love., and trust. they are eager learners. they crave to learn and interact with you.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

One dog huh? I've trained over 400 in the past year. I guarantee all 400+ were trained to a higher level than that one dog of yours and I don't even have to see it to make that claim. Dog v Dog aggression? I've fixed it. Leash reactivity? Done. Aggression vs humans? Done it. Annoying in any way you could possibly imagine? Been there fixed that. Dogs that were going to be put down and me getting it right was the last line of defense before they got the needle? I've had a few of those too.

So if you think you know how to train a dog because you've taught it how to play patty cake for treats think again.

So go ahead and try to school me on dogs and what their motivations are according to that Walt Disney view of the world you seem to have, but you're clueless.


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## kelliewilson (Jan 1, 2015)

Baillif said:


> One dog huh? I've trained over 400 in the past year. I guarantee all 400+ were trained to a higher level than that one dog of yours and I don't even have to see it to make that claim. Dog v Dog aggression? I've fixed it. Leash reactivity? Done. Aggression vs humans? Done it. Annoying in any way you could possibly imagine? Been there fixed that. Dogs that were going to be put down and me getting it right was the last line of defense before they got the needle? I've had a few of those too.
> 
> So if you think you know how to train a dog because you've taught it how to play patty cake for treats think again.
> 
> So go ahead and try to school me on dogs and what their motivations are according to that Walt Disney view of the world you seem to have, but you're clueless.


Im not trying to school you on anything, Ive had plenty of dogs, I just used my gs as an example. Im just saying beating a dog is wrong, do you see professionals say we will beat your dog into shape? ceaser 911 beat your dog for you so it will learn? Im not in fairy land, I think your ego is just a little big, You might be better then ceaser and all that, but beating your dogs and feeling all godlike bragging about is not what dogs are for, really smart people make mistakes. Im just saying all them animals you fixed Im sure you did a great job, probably could have gotten the same results without smashing there faces.


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## dpc134 (Jan 14, 2013)

kelliewilson said:


> Im not trying to school you on anything, Ive had plenty of dogs, I just used my gs as an example. Im just saying beating a dog is wrong, do you see professionals say we will beat your dog into shape? ceaser 911 beat your dog for you so it will learn? Im not in fairy land, I think your ego is just a little big, You might be better then ceaser and all that, but beating your dogs and feeling all godlike bragging about is not what dogs are for, really smart people make mistakes. Im just saying all them animals you fixed Im sure you did a great job, probably could have gotten the same results without smashing there faces.


I think the issue is your perception of "beating" vs physical corrections. I highly doubt Ballif's dogs are demoralized because of his methods of training / corrections. You see physical correction as "beating" and abuse, the dog sees it as direction setting. I read a study that was completed in Germany (I will try to find it and post it) where they tested over 100 GSD and Mals using 3 methods: e-collar, prong, no physical correction, and the study showed that the majority of the dogs showed less stress with e-collar and prong because it was clear to the dog what was expected.
The level of training, the dog, and the owner are factors into what method of training you will need.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

kelliewilson said:


> the same results without smashing there faces.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flGubVRwZYc


Zebu doesn't look abused to me??? 

"Beating and smashing dog faces," is just a way over the top accusation! Just because "we" don't understand or can't do something...does not make it wrong.

Baillif, offers us a tremendous amount of insight and if "dog beating" is your only takeaway...that's to bad.

I kinda thought Gwenhwyfair, was a bit off base when she said "newbies" would think "dog slapping" was being recommended?? Apparently she was not off base! 

But no it's not what he is saying, it's what Baillif can do, because he understands dogs. By way of contrast, I train with a Slip Leash myself (pet person) I post this link all the time.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

First video clip on loose leash walking. Having learned that thus far I have found I can walk any dog on a loose leash. Even dogs that have never seen a leash in there lives. 

I "used" to say simple as that...but "apparently" it's not?? I have also been told a Slip lead leash is dangerous??

Well yeah, I guess if you wrap it around you dogs neck and drag him around like a balloon on a string it could be.

Sometimes people have to use common sense, when seeking advise. We all work dogs differently.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

OMG. Chip said I was right about something. I do believe I'm gonna faint. Hehehe. 


(But yeah, there is a reason Baillif does not teach it to his pet clients....sometimes there is a method to my madness. . )


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Some do learn it. I don't hide it from anyone. Whenever I pull Crank or Zebu out to demo dog if they make a mistake it is usually how I correct them. To some degree you have to give a client what you think they can handle. Many clients stick to just e collar. There have been a few really good ones that can make it happen with anything though. I am always really proud of the ones that can take all the collars off and their dog is with them and under control without anything but the person.

The people who do that live as training as a lifestyle to a certain extent. If the dog is out they're always keeping an eye out to correct behavior they don't want and reward what they do like. They don't just tune out.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Clients that go to you will not be one of the Possie crowd though.... 

I agree that skill level and initiative do matter.

Anyhoo, still not going to do it with any of my dogs.

I think I would still be a good student though. Smitty does a half way decent Zebu imitation, emphasis on half way LOL!, no collars on at all.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Hey Chip, btw - did you see my Smitty dog's Zebu imitation video?


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Baillif - Thank you. Your posts gave me what I needed.

I just had to be firm with my pup tonight (10mos). She needed her nails clipped badly.

This was a thing I had been putting off for 2 months because I knew it was going to be a hassle to the max. I put my mindset that this was going to happen, period. I would never hit my dog, but I did grab the scruff on her cheek and put her down, (used my low voice). Total battle, I just leaned more, the more she pushed against me. The last time I put her head to the ground, it may have been the equivalent of what you call "a slap". She quit the battle and started "talking to me". It was like stress coming out of her. Something I never would have expected. These are the sounds she makes when she is relaxed and we are going to bed for the night. I just held her and told her it was ok and I was almost done. Then she just layed quietly while I got the last paw. 

Then, here's where the amazing part begins; I thought we may have a breakthrough going, so I tested it. I put her into a backup, sit,laydown,sit,back up on and on about 15 times! Her eyes were shining, ears up - she was paying attention and fully engaged! Took a 5 minute break - asked her the commands 3 more sets and she almost completed them before I got a chance to ask them. 

Major breakthrough! I gave her a high value reward (when the session was done) took her outside to pee for the night. She didn't dink around in the yard, the minute I said "come on" she leaped onto the porch and was in the house.

I remembered the "party" and did that several times in the process, she was so happy! Thank you!


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

For nail clipping I put my dogs on their backs in my lap and cradle them between my legs and have them lay back and relax. I don't ever quick my own dogs so nail clipping never becomes an issue, but if they try to wiggle out I would put pressure on them until they stopped and then go back to a relaxed state. If I had a dog that had been quicked at some point pressure might not be enough sometimes you have to correct the fight out of them until they settle and then it is back to a petting session. It shouldn't be a fight although in some cases I've had some dogs try it, have to be corrected till they chill out and then we go back into business. 

If they've been quicked before and are afraid I will do some desensitization training touching nails and making the clippers click and then correcting any over the top unnecessary drama on the part of the dog till they chill out. I usually have to clip the nails of every board and train that comes through before the end of the class and 90% of the time I've built up so much trust it's a very easy thing. So I do ultimately just get it done, but I will move at a slower pace to make sure the emotional state of the animal is taken into consideration. Never quick the dog and it shouldn't ever be an issue though. Nail clipping becomes a petting session where the nails just happen to get done.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

She has never been quicked. She would have reacted that way if I wanted to look at her freckles or pet her for any length of time.  But, that was only a small part of the intention of my post. If you don't understand the rest, well, thanks anyway, you gave me some information you don't know about, that helped.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

To avoid quicking a dog get a nail grinder. 

Btw nail care, this is one of those things that I start right away with little puppies. I hold their paws and gently manipulate each toe with treats and praise, same with brushing and ear cleaning. Something you learn with horses, get them used to being handled while they are young and not as strong.....and big.


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## Reef LeDoux (Feb 21, 2015)

I don't cut or file either of my larger dogs nails. I run them on the road in my neighborhood a couple times a week and they stay "very" short. 
Now that it's so hot we can only do it right before dark, but you don't have to go far just a quick trip around the block.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I used to do that.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Hey Chip, btw - did you see my Smitty dog's Zebu imitation video?


Nope?? Link please??


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> OMG. Chip said I was right about something. I do believe I'm gonna faint. Hehehe.
> 
> 
> (But yeah, there is a reason Baillif does not teach it to his pet clients....sometimes there is a method to my madness. . )


Well "apparently" you did raise a valid point.

Certainly not one I would have ever thought of?? I'm more of the "kids don't try this at home" type myself. Somethings you just don't do if you don't know what your doing. 

I kinda thought that was a given??? Then JQP shows up to support your point!

We don't see that happen everyday!

That being said and in acknowledgement of you point being proven, you are deserving of the same award I gave Baillif! A houndie:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Chip, Baillif sees a lot working with his pet clients. I see even more because at least Baillif's clients are admitting they need help when they go to him. They also aren't stuck in Possie world with no way out if they choose him as their trainer.

I on the other hand....all I can say is *heavy sigh*.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't teach it because they have an e collar and there is less that can go wrong. The dog cant run from the e collar. The dog can't escape the e collar correction through aggression. We teach them to not allow dogs to escape consequences through things like this but telling them not to and them actually following through on it when they're off on their own can be pretty different. There are good handlers that pick that physical stuff up very quickly and naturally and they learn it and use it and are better for it. There is no difference in what their dog does with the collar off vs collar on.

There are people out there who aren't able to get physical. That's why we give them tools.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Yup! :thumbup: 

I know my timing and physical coordination stink compared to the really good trainers I've had the chance to meet over time now. I also know a lot of pet people who are even worse then me!

To be honest though, even if I had really good coordination and timing I just cannot visualize hitting or slapping a dog in the face, for all the reasons I've mentioned previously. For the foreseeable future, no slapping in the face with my dogs.




Baillif said:


> I don't teach it because they have an e collar and *there is less that can go wrong.* The dog cant run from the e collar. The dog can't escape the e collar correction through aggression. We teach them to not allow dogs to escape consequences through things like this but telling them not to and them actually following through on it when they're off on their own can be pretty different. There are good handlers that pick that physical stuff up very quickly and naturally and they learn it and use it and are better for it. There is no difference in what their dog does with the collar off vs collar on.
> 
> There are people out there who aren't able to get physical. That's why we give them tools.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Nope?? Link please??


I think we should start a Zebu inspired thread with all of our videos doing our best. Zebu and Crank are inspirational to watch. I'd say you too Gene but you're always off camera! 


I'll start a thread in brags and send you a PM to let you know, but I would really like for others to share how well their dogs are doing too!


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