# Dogs being seized from breeders



## astrovan2487

Thought I would get everyone's attention about this. I'm not saying I know any of these breeders or support them in anyway. Seems like there is a trend where breeders are hiring people to take care of their dogs and soon after dogs are confiscated for negligence or abuse. It appears as though the hired help is purposely being negligent in taking care of the dogs, getting evidence of negligence, then collecting evidence to turn over to animal control. The breeders then have their dogs confiscated and are forced to give up their dogs permanently or pay very large fees to even try to get them back. All of this is done before the breeders are actually convicted of anything at all. Now I will say again, I do not personally know either breeder or anyone involved so I am not defending them in anyway but I feel like people should be aware before hiring anyone to watch their dogs. 
18 dogs seized from breeding facility in Alamance County | myfox8.com
Man charged with animal cruelty | News, Sports, Jobs - The Intermountain


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## dzignr_tastz

astrovan2487 said:


> Thought I would get everyone's attention about this. I'm not saying I know any of these breeders or support them in anyway. Seems like there is a trend where breeders are hiring people to take care of their dogs and soon after dogs are confiscated for negligence or abuse. It appears as though the hired help is purposely being negligent in taking care of the dogs, getting evidence of negligence, then collecting evidence to turn over to animal control. The breeders then have their dogs confiscated and are forced to give up their dogs permanently or pay very large fees to even try to get them back. All of this is done before the breeders are actually convicted of anything at all. Now I will say again, I do not personally know either breeder or anyone involved so I am not defending them in anyway but I feel like people should be aware before hiring anyone to watch their dogs.
> 18 dogs seized from breeding facility in Alamance County | myfox8.com
> Man charged with animal cruelty | News, Sports, Jobs - The Intermountain


And where did you come up with this conspiracy theory? If either of those articles is even remotely accurate, they deserved to have their animals confiscated while they're fully investigated. Dead animals? Amputated tails? If the breeder wasn't supervising his hired help (and still, animals), then he is still legally responsible as the owner of the "business".

However, feeding them a raw diet obviously shouldn't constitute "negligence", and putting it in there is bad reporting. That's simply a difference of opinion, and a lack of understanding.


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## car2ner

I believe there was a movie last year about this very issue. AR groups try to get someone hired and gather evidence /plant evidence of neglect or wrong doing. In the movie version, the AR new hire found out that the breeder truly cared for their dogs and breed responsibly. But the AR group didn't want to hear it. 
No, I haven't seen the movie. With a limited audience base I didn't expect it to be a box office hit.


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## cdwoodcox

It does highlight the need to be involved personally with your animals if you want to be a breeder. However, besides the four dead dogs, the first article says the dogs were being well cared for. 
But what happens to the dogs while in confiscation. Are they spayed or neutered, given vaccines? I think I remember a case where seemingly healthy dogs were dying while in confiscation. 
Sounds like another venue where more common sense and less big brother is needed.


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## Dainerra

dzignr_tastz said:


> And where did you come up with this conspiracy theory? If either of those articles is even remotely accurate, they deserved to have their animals confiscated while they're fully investigated. Dead animals? Amputated tails? If the breeder wasn't supervising his hired help (and still, animals), then he is still legally responsible as the owner of the "business".
> 
> However, feeding them a raw diet obviously shouldn't constitute "negligence", and putting it in there is bad reporting. That's simply a difference of opinion, and a lack of understanding.


in the first article, there had been complaints against the breeder, possibly by an AR person who snuck into the facility after being hired as kennel help. There were pictures, possibly taken before the hired help did the work they were being paid to do. Complaints were investigated and found to be unwarranted and the animals all in good health and clean kennels. 
Fast forward a few days and suddenly 4 animals die all apparently at the same or very close to the same time. At a facility that has been given nothing but rave reviews from inspectors and past clients. Definitely something fishy.

But the conspiracy theory is nothing new. And definitely not without it's evidence. People have invited people into their homes to see a litter or hired help and turned around to find their animals seized or stolen. The AR community has a long history of editing video and staging photos to prove cases against breeders and anyone involved in any type of animal husbandry. 
There have been cases of animals seized and immediately rehomed to friends of officials at the shelter or rescue. 

One man had his animals seized and was being charged thousands of $$ a day for their care before having them returned to him. And several animals, including puppies, died while in the care of Animal Control because it's not a good environment.


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## Sunsilver

The accused, Randy Brent, has owned or co-owned some of the top German show line GSDs in the U.S. X-Box Dei Precision was at his kennel and being used as a stud (I think he was a co-owned dog, not sure. I do know Randy wasn't the breeder. The dog passed away several years before this all happened.) There is another very well-know stud that was seized, VA Waiko vom Schaumbergerland, and the co-owner is trying to get him back, presumably without having him neutered.

The kennel has been in business for more than 20 years. Randy had a lot of dogs, and some of them were in uncovered runs and had no shelter. That's one of the issues.

It appears the majority of the dogs WERE well-cared for, and only a very small number had issues. As for the 'rooms covered in feces', Randy says there were maybe 2 or 3 poops in some of the rooms at the time the kennel was raided, and since he was away at the time, the hired help would have been responsible for cleaning those up.

Hard to know what to make of it all. It's every breeder's worst nightmare! 

While the case is making its way through the courts, the dogs are at the Humane Society, and Randy will have to pay their boarding fees if he ever gets any of them back.

Edit: according to a recent post on another website, apparently the dogs have already been dispersed to foster care, or new owners, or returned to co-owners.


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## Nigel

car2ner said:


> I believe there was a movie last year about this very issue. AR groups try to get someone hired and gather evidence /plant evidence of neglect or wrong doing. In the movie version, the AR new hire found out that the breeder truly cared for their dogs and breed responsibly. But the AR group didn't want to hear it.
> No, I haven't seen the movie. With a limited audience base I didn't expect it to be a box office hit.


This sounds similar to the Feld entertainment vs Hsus lawsuit.


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## Heartandsoul

Sunsilver said:


> The accused, Randy Brent, has owned or co-owned some of the top German show line GSDs in the U.S. X-Box Dei Precision was at his kennel and being used as a stud (I think he was a co-owned dog, not sure. I do know Randy wasn't the breeder. The dog passed away several years before this all happened.) There is another very well-know stud that was seized, VA Waiko vom Schaumbergerland, and the co-owner is trying to get him back, presumably without having him neutered.
> 
> The kennel has been in business for more than 20 years. Randy had a lot of dogs, and some of them were in uncovered runs and had no shelter. That's one of the issues.
> 
> It appears the majority of the dogs WERE well-cared for, and only a very small number had issues. As for the 'rooms covered in feces', Randy says there were maybe 2 or 3 poops in some of the rooms at the time the kennel was raided, and since he was away at the time, the hired help would have been responsible for cleaning those up.
> 
> Hard to know what to make of it all. It's every breeder's worst nightmare!
> 
> While the case is making its way through the courts, the dogs are at the Humane Society, and Randy will have to pay their boarding fees if he ever gets any of them back.
> 
> Edit: according to a recent post on another website, apparently the dogs have already been dispersed to foster care, or new owners, or returned to co-owners.


Is this the on going case where one of the a/c is known to be an animal rights activist or a different one? The one I'm thinking about I was following for awhile and the inside vids were horrible. It tore at my heart. It is stories like this and some instances in my own area that cause me to make certain that all my peas are in a row concerning my boy and town law. 

Talking about original post and first link: Why does a/c have the right to remove healthy animals on just a suspicion where cause of death has not yet been determined and no outward appearance of abuse on the four dogs. Especially with 4 surprise visits and no sign of neglect. Who gives them this type of power. 

Also, why remove healthy dogs in clean environment, fed "food better than most humans eat" knowing full well that they (those who take the dogs) are putting them in a nightmare hole that is going to make these dogs sick. 

Why can't a/c just have the autopsy done, leave the other dogs alone and just do a daily inspection of the suspected facility. Oh, because it is a more economical and more common sense approach. Sorry for the rant. It just makes the blood boil.


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## lhczth

Guilty until proven innocent as judged by social media and our current seize and extort system. Even if proven innocent, the breeders' reputations will be ruined and often, maybe not in these cases, they will lose their animals because they can't afford to pay the blackmail (AC/shelter fees). Look at what happened to the guy in Indianapolis and how much it cost him to finally get his dogs back.


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## lhczth

Just an FYI, humans are autopsied. Animals are necropsied.


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## Muskeg

This guilty until proven innocent problem haunts dog owners. 

Animals are currently "just" property. 

Perhaps it's time dogs and cats (and other companion animals) were given a greater value than simply property, and that dog owners were given more due process rights than just property owners. 

Dogs are more than property. 

I believe dogs and dog owners should have rights that are above those of property owners. These are bonded animals, and many GSDs do NOT do well in a shelter environment. It's a bigger issue than just "holding on" to property until due course of law, a seizure and holding of quality breeding animals, and companions, could affect not only the future value of those animals, but also the quality of life for the owner, and the future temperament and health of the dogs involved.

Sled dogs are housed in far worse conditions than any of the photos I've seen, but they escape this type of scrutiny by being classified as "livestock", which is going the wrong direction, in my opinion. 

I'd be highly annoyed and inconvenienced if police seized my car on suspicion of a crime I didn't commit, but I'd be going crazy if my dogs were seized on suspicion. There was a case of a farmer in New York, I believe, where his animals were seized based on similar tactics. This AR stuff is getting out of hand, for sure.


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## Sunsilver

Yes, there have been reports of dogs and other animals dying while in the custody of A/C. It's especially bad for puppies, as their immune systems are immature.

Another member of that 'other' board had this happen to her sister, and the Humane Society managed to 'lose' her two African grey parrots, which they had also seized. They don't just seize kennel dogs - they will take ALL your animals including much-loved house pets. They would not treat a mammary tumor her 3 lb. Yorkie developed, because she refused to sign the dog over to them, so they just let the poor wee thing die. Several other dogs died either while in rescue, or in custody of A/C.

I don't know what the rules are re. quoting posts from other boards. Can someone enlighten me? There's a thread on the PDB about this same case.


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## Dainerra

honestly, I think that they would be MORE able to seize animals if they were "more than just property" As it is, they must follow specific rules (or are supposed!) that give you rights to retain control of your property and care for it as you see fit, as long as you meet certain minimal standards. Changing the status of animals would, in my opinion, greatly open the door to more seizures for more vague reasons


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## WIBackpacker

Sunsilver said:


> I don't know what the rules are re. quoting posts from other boards. Can someone enlighten me? There's a thread on the PDB about this same case.


I probably wouldn't, though you could PM one of the Administrators (Castlemaid, lhczth) if you want a black & white, yes/no answer.



> 4. Do not make statements based on rumor;





> 19. Since germanshepherds.com relies on advertising revenue to function, posting links other dedicated Germans Shepherd Dog discussion boards, either in the body of a post, or in one's signature is not allowed and will be removed.


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## Sunsilver

Ah, thank you for clarifying that, WIBackpacker!

None of what I have posted is rumor. I'm being careful about what I say.


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## lhczth

Technically we are not to link or copy from other message boards.


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## astrovan2487

lhczth said:


> Technically we are not to link or copy from other message boards.


I apologize, did not know that. Are we allowed to copy/paste an article in a post from another website? 
Also definitely do not want to spread rumors, I kind of figured there would be some drama involved with starting this thread but I feel that this is a very important issue even to non breeders, wether it's a case of big name breeders abusing animals or animal rights groups getting people's dogs taken away.


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## Jax08

https://www.germanshepherddog.com/b...come-criminal-charges-filled-cruelty-animals/


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## astrovan2487

astrovan2487 said:


> I apologize, did not know that. Are we allowed to copy/paste an article in a post from another website?
> Also definitely do not want to spread rumors, I kind of figured there would be some drama involved with starting this thread but I feel that this is a very important issue even to non breeders, wether it's a case of big name breeders abusing animals or animal rights groups getting people's dogs taken away.


*are we allowed to copy/paste an article from another website that is not a message board, like a news site?


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## lhczth

Some news sources do not allow copy and paste onto another site. You can link to news stories. We just don't usually allow linking to other GSD message boards. And, no, you shouldn't copy and paste from other boards unless it is your own post or have permission from the owners of the other posts.


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## Rallhaus

Dogs available at Burlington County Animal Shelter, where the news article indicated that Brewer's dog were taken.
Most of them are Bully breeds, except for the 18 GSD's that are listed as no available - - Very interesting. 

www.PetHarbor.com Animal Search: ALL


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## holland

Not sure what is interesting about it-it strikes me as sad. Also someone mentioned kennel dogs and much loved pets-don't all dogs deserve to be much loved?? If someone is setting these people up there are some truly sick people out there. Thirty dogs is a lot of dogs--so he did schutzhund-guess they didn't wait for a guilty verdict before separating themselves from him...that's what friends are for...


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## car2ner

for those of you who face book, if you go to either Heather Duggan's page, there are updates. She personally knows Nancy.
Her post was shared by People for Pet Ownership, another page I follow.


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## Baillif

This is a particularly weird case. I have trained dogs this breeder has bred and they are super nice. She also keeps up with them.

There are a lot of rumors swirling about on this case. I've heard from at least 5 people it's probably a frame job, but I have also heard the owner had addiction issues but heard nothing to substantiate that claim. One of the ones that died was a dog she absolutely adored too. Who knows?


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## lhczth

An interesting opinion that goes along well with this discussion. 
Will Coggin: Accused should not be treated as guilty | Opinion | conwaydailysun.com


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## squerly

Well, this is disturbing to say the least. What was the outcome, anyone know?


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## squerly

Just shy of a year 1/2 since the last post on this thread so I'm sure a court of law has made its decision by now. No one has any info or is willing to say anything good about this man? 

I never met Randy, but I spoke with him many times on the phone/email, etc. Sure seemed like a nice guy to me. Even bought a dog from him and another breeder who were working together. 

Sad to hear all this and I was hoping someone would depict him in a better light.


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## Jax08

If you google you can find the answers you are looking for. Why did you revive this thread more than a year later? I doubt most people on this board know this person or any of the other breeders noted on this thread.


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## squerly

Jax08 said:


> Why did you revive this thread more than a year later?


Because this was the first time I've seen it and I know there is a fairly large concentration of breeders on this forum. Seemed reasonable that breeders know their counterparts, yes? 

I was unaware of any rule limiting comments on an active thread that is over a certain age? Have I missed something?


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## Jax08

Merry Christmas, Jim.


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## squerly

Jax08 said:


> Merry Christmas, Jim.


Merry Christmas, Jax!


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## middleofnowhere

I did google the name and got nothing new so googling doesn't always work. 



I am now curious as to how this went down.


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## Baillif

https://www.thetimesnews.com/news/2...-breeder-to-have-2nd-mental-health-evaluation

You didn't google very hard


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## middleofnowhere

Well, I looked for Randy Brent.... So thanks for the update on the other person. sad case.


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## Jax08

Pleas entered in animal cruelty cases | News, Sports, Jobs - The Intermountain


https://www.facebook.com/groups/183553415442/permalink/10154468961815443/


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## dojoson41

lhczth said:


> Guilty until proven innocent as judged by social media and our current seize and extort system. Even if proven innocent, the breeders' reputations will be ruined and often, maybe not in these cases, they will lose their animals because they can't afford to pay the blackmail (AC/shelter fees). Look at what happened to the guy in Indianapolis and how much it cost him to finally get his dogs back.


same happened to the Tiger lady in New Jersey and she proved that the lose tiger wasn’t theirs but was a plant to get her land cheaply (government had her land plotted out =take over more like it). After the court fights with every one on her side including Media, the county and the A/C nazi still took all her cats and would not let her find homes or move them and herself to another home out of NJ-ps the bigcats were sent to a TX so-called refuge but was known in circles they were a killing/hunting farm selling to big game hunters=so guess what happened to the big cats.


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## dojoson41

suddenly 4 animals die all apparently at the same or very close to the same time=poisoned =IT ONLY GOES TO SHOW THAT AR, PETA and ANIMAL CONTROL PEOPLE HAVE NO PROBLEMS PUTTING ANIMALS IN HARMS WAY/ KILL ANIMALS JUST TO MAKE A POINT, TO CONTROL PEOPLE LIVES andHARASS OTHERS THAT THE 99% OF THE WORLD WHO DONT/WONT SHARE THEIR UNWARRENTED VEIWS OF THOSE NUTCASES. Breeders need to do their OWN surveillance as well.Plus NO animal control/shelter should be allowed to keep any dog/s seized by unfounded means/abuse for more than 3 days total and if owner found innocent the AR/animal control must pay ALL monies for care/loss of animal and mandatory jail time for filing false reports if that is truly the case which should NOT BE HARD TO PROVE. there are REALY abused animals out there like dog fight promoters but they waste time and resources on innocent breeders/owner that have no criminal records because they know they won’t fight back like those sick dog fight promoters/owners would and could.


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