# Leashed GSD bites unleashed little dog



## WolfPack92 (May 1, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I am looking for some advice, comments, similar stories or anything you feel needs to be said on this situations I had today. So I have 2 GSD's. One CWL and one WGSL. I got my working line, Wolf, when he was three years old so he has had some other issues that we've worked on for two years now that he is five and I, and my family, have seen such a big progress in his overall temperament. However I think I have more anxiety than other owners when it comes to my dogs just because of the stigma that kind of goes with having a "big aggressive German Shepherd."

Anyway, today I'm coming home from my walk and as I'm about 25 meters from my apartments door, my neighbors little dog that whom live two doors down from me, was hanging out outside by himself. The little guy is like 15 lbs MAX and he had the nerve to run up to me and my two dogs. So basically wolf and the little dog sniff each other for a few seconds then start fighting and Wolf bit him on the back of his neck. It took me a little bit to get them apart because I had both my dogs and coffee in the other hand and the owner of the little dog was inside. Finally he ran out and grabbed his dog and I got mine away and put them inside. I went over to my neighbors door to check on the little dog and he seemed perfectly fine, he was being playful and looked like he had the doggy smile as I was petting him, BUT he definitely was bleeding a little bit. This really worries me. My neighbor's are extremely nice people and they are literally always outside just hanging out with their little dog that just chills outside unleashed. It's never been a problem because usually they are at least there with him and if I walk out with my two they control him. But this time the owner was inside with the door propped open and the dog was outside, again unleashed, by himself.

Have any of you had a similar problem? I don't think wolf was trying to hurt him but I think he did get defensive. If wolf really wanted to he coulda killed the little dog in a second.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

My neighbor is just like this. I complained to management twice after her 10- 15lb dog went after my gsd twice. Luckily kona just stood there confused as it was going after her legs. Now they are pretty strict about on leash dogs on the property.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Even playing the size difference can cause serious problems. Legally, the owners of the unleashed dog are liable, but of course you don't want to see anyone hurt no matter who is at fault.
I had an old chihuahua run up to my big boy's nose and poop right in front of him. My boy was astonished. The kid who was in charge of the little guy came along, but being a kid did nothing but watch! I told him it would be a good idea to come get his dog. Once the little old guy was in his kid's arms that is when my dog reacted, but not strongly. I suspect the old guy made faces at my boy. I am so glad the little dog didn't get hurt. 

If it had been my female the story might have been different. I suspect my gal would have barked and the little guy would have run home but I don't really want to test that theory.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

This happens ALLLL the time, and of course, 90% of the time, who gets the blame?? The big, bad German shepherd of course!!

One day, my husband was walking our rescue GSD, Tasha, along the street. A neighbour was washing his car, and had his Jack Russell terror out in the driveway with him. The dog saw Tasha, and made a beeline straight for her.

At first, my husband thought the dog just wanted to say 'hello', but as he got closer, he could see the dog's teeth were bared. He ordered Tasha (who was leashed) to sit, and prepared to intervene.

The little dog ignored my husband's attempts to block him, and went straight for Tasha's throat! Tasha knocked him down with a paw, and bit him on the butt. 

That took the fight right out of him. He yelped, and ran back home.

My husband went over and apologized to the owner, and asked if the dog was hurt. He also stressed that Tasha had been on leash, and under control, and that the other dog was clearly the aggressor. The owner waved his hand nonchalantly. "Only his dignity," he said.

The next morning, the neighbour's wife was at our door, very apologetic. Apparently Tasha's teeth HAD drawn blood, and she needed to know if her rabies shots were up to date. My husband assured her that they were, and that was the end of the matter.

Pretty sure the JRT was kept on a leash after that... :rolleyes2:


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## WolfPack92 (May 1, 2017)

Thanks for the stories. It's very frustrating because it seems to be a problem at my complex. If I see little dogs running around freely I always try to warn people that one of my GSD's is NOT friendly! Usually they look at me like I'm a jerk for saying it. I get that people think there dog is harmless cuz they're small but you don't know how other peoples dogs are. If your dog is aggressive and untrained why would you allow him to run around unleashed? It's NOT CUTE! 

Anyway, little update. Everything with the little dog and my neighbors is fine. I looked up some laws just to be safe though and seems like since my dog was on a 6 ft leash and their dog was unleashed and not under control and on public property they're liable for any injuries. Glad they are nice people though and even though it was legally they're fault, I absolutely do not like taking chances like that when it comes to my dogs. Honestly, if they would have taken him to the vet I would have gladly just paid for the vet bills even if I didn't have to. I just didn't want to suggest it because I didn't want to incriminate myself lol


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

WolfPack92 said:


> Thanks for the stories. It's very frustrating because it seems to be a problem at my complex. If I see little dogs running around freely I always try to warn people that one of my GSD's is NOT friendly! Usually they look at me like I'm a jerk for saying it. I get that people think there dog is harmless cuz they're small but you don't know how other peoples dogs are. If your dog is aggressive and untrained why would you allow him to run around unleashed? It's NOT CUTE!


Oddly enough when I told people that my small mix breed (22 lbs) was iffy with other dogs, people seemed to understand. If I said the same thing about my GSDs people got defensive. Folks just aren't logical all the time.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

BTW, when I first saw the title of this topic, I though it was about doing line bites in IPO...:blush:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Since they're nice and you want to get along, I'd go over with a gift of a brand new Flexi and tell them how bad I'd feel if something happened to their dog. See if a light bulb goes on for them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

wolfPack 92

"It took me a little bit to get them apart because I had both my dogs and coffee in the other hand "

what is wrong with that picture ?

one dog has issues .

you weren't able to do a read on what might happen or was about to happen -- little dog right in your dog's space -

you needed to scram him off before he got to you , been able to control your dog before he bit , been able to move away

please -- going for a walk with the dog is an engaged proactive endeavour
don't walk distracted -- same with walking the dog while being on the cell phone

that walk is supposed to be an opportunity to connect .

walk one dog at a time . 

you were lucky it didn't escalate or get your other dog in on a rumble , excitement without focus - little dog , the two GSDs or even you being bitten as collateral damage.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Steve Strom said:


> Since they're nice and you want to get along, I'd go over with a gift of a brand new Flexi and tell them how bad I'd feel if something happened to their dog. See if a light bulb goes on for them.


Good idea. Instead of a Flexi (they can still charge your dog as owners are usually not alert enough to block the lead from extending) I would give them a cute colored 6ft nylon leash since everything for and about little dogs seems to need to be cute and sweet.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Many years ago, a "terrierist" jumped out of its owner's arms, raced down its driveway to the sidewalk, and launched at my leg, intending to bite me. It's owner screamed hysterically. We had been minding our own business on a nice leashed walk.

My big, old male GSD jumped around me, planted a huge paw on top of the little dog, pinning it to the concrete, and placed his entire jaws over the little one's head, without biting down. He simply growled, and froze, his eyes on me, waiting for direction. He could have easily killed it in that moment, but he didn't -- he just froze and waited.

We had trained a very reliable "leave it." I used that command instinctively, without even thinking. The training had primed _me _to have that instantaneous reaction, without pausing to think what to do, and it kicked in unconsciously during the adrenaline rush. My dog responded perfectly to a command he knew -- letting the little one go without hurting it, after scaring the stuffing out of it and its stupid owner. It made a bee-line back home the second he let it go. That "leave it" command saved the life of the little dog -- _my _dog's training filled in where the little one's owner had none. A reliable recall on her part would have prevented the whole situation....but whatever. I've always wondered what would have happened if I started screaming hysterically like the other owner did (my guess is it wouldn't have ended well).

If you're going to have to deal with off leash "terrierists," you might think about proofing some OB to keep your dog from reacting to them in a way that results in a dangerous dog fight. My current dog will position himself behind me and hold a sit-stay when an off-leash dog approaches, so that I can chase it off. He expects me to deal with it because that's what we've trained. I don't want him to be blamed for a problem with a small dog...and I don't want to be bitten breaking up a dog fight. BAD bites happen that way.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I love when they say the "oh it's ok he's friendly!" Card. The funniest part is whe. They have their dogs on leash and literally run away and immediately go a different direction when they spot your gsd. My cattle dog is aggressive and they always come toward me yet away from my social gsd lol....


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## maxtmill (Dec 28, 2010)

car2ner said:


> Oddly enough when I told people that my small mix breed (22 lbs) was iffy with other dogs, people seemed to understand. If I said the same thing about my GSDs people got defensive. Folks just aren't logical all the time.


Yes, I noticed that people didn't take me seriously when I told them my Frenchie, Tank (who went to the bridge a couple weeks ago  ), was not good with other dogs. Sometimes they would smile and approach us anyway, with their little Poopsie on its' flex leash. That made me so angry. That little 18 pound bully could tear you up with that crushing underbite. Some people don't have a clue. My female WGSL is a real peach. The landlady's sons have been here all week, power washing and painting outside, and she thinks they are here to play. But let a stranger walk up the road, and she is all business - several nice loud thunderous barks, hair up, etc., until I welcome them. Good girl!


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## astrovan2487 (May 29, 2014)

I've had a similar issue with a relatives two evil dachshunds except while my dog was under control she was not on leash and on private property. These dogs are the most evil nasty animals I've ever met, the relative lets them run free, they are always running at people and other dogs barking and lunging. They do that thing where one goes in front barking and lunging while the other goes around back and tries to bite the dogs legs. They tried this on my dog and she would not have any of it. Honestly I feel like I failed my dog by not blocking them faster, she grabbed the one and would have done some damage but I told her to out and she let go. Now this lovely relative is blaming the whole situation on my dog and wants us to have the dogs meet on a daily basis to "get used to each other". I will not put my dog thru that kind of trauma again. 
Just curious...what would other people do in a similar situation? Block the small dogs, kick them away, pick up your dog, ...?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Aww well I suppose I'd be remiss if I did not add my two cents. For "ME" the same attitude that keeps my dogs safe, keeps the owners of dogs of the freaking clueless safe! And my motto is *"NO Dog I, DO NOT KNOW, GETS CLOSE ENOUGH TO DO MY DOGS HARM WITHOUT GETTING PAST ME!"*Period end of story! I don't talk or negotiate with fools and their dogs! 

I don't care ... I don't know you, I don't know your dog ... you keep your distance I"ll keep my mind, thank you! That is how "we" roll! 

At my high point I walked my American Band Dog, Gunther, my OS GSD aka Rocky, and my baby girl AKA White Boxer Struddell and ... no man or dog ... is getting to my baby girl!! When I had my tri-pack ... I never had a single loose dog encounter and I took point still, .... a loose dog would happen to think to wade into that "meat grinder, it would have to get pass Me, Gunther and Rocky to get to Struddell... not gonna happen!" But time passes and so do dogs. 

And when I was down to one ... "Rocky" encounters ramped up??? 3 attempts in 10 years with all and then 15 in 5 years on Rocky and I??? Some with owners present and clueless but most with no owners present. 

In any case ... my policy is my dog go behind me ... and I deal, with this crap! I tell my dogs "Stay!" And I take point ... I got this! That approach, went sidewise twice ... the first time was here.:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/4881481-post1.html

Aside from slipping on the ice ... well I'd still have dealt , but ... plan B as it were, worked out fine an assist from Rocky! Bottom line NO dogs harmed ... worked out fine! My dogs were unharmed and the dogs of the total freaking clueless were not harmed! The owner got off with a "Train your dogs!" Which was more than I like to say because I don't bear fools well!! 


15 years and 16 successful counters, I only messes up once and Rocky got struck! And that ... took a "Perfect Storm" situation as it were ... I messed up, total darkness (apparently ... I can not see in the dark???) and as was to learn, later it was an ex Female MWD DDD WL GSD that got us and ... the conditions favored her.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/687457-argggg-dog-attack.html

So ... that was attempt on my dog number 16 and it was successful because I screwed up!! live and learn after that ... I actually followed my own advice as given in a video clip ... somewhere in here ...by me! :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html

And that advise ... is to use a "Walking Stick to block that Dog!!!!" In the real world it works like ... attempt by an uncontrolled dog number 17 as done by me!:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...513-argggg-dog-attack-yet-again-but-time.html

No fuss no bother, and my dog was not used as bait! I preferred him to stay behind me but, you know I messed up once sooo .... I was last in line to see the situation unfolding?? But ... I was first to freaking stop it! Don't freaking screw with us dog is how we roll. 

So I stopped that dog cold! No harm no foul ... nothing to apologize for ...no contact! Most likely I said two or two three words more than I cared to "No Problem" maybe and we were on our way.

That was ... "Walking Stick" counter number one, Walking Stick Counter number two and lifetime total 18 came ... sigh ... a week or two later!! This time I was freaking done! I am tire of this crap! I said nothing!!! Cattle Dog, no owner present ... I never said a freaking word .... "chose wisely dog!!" :
Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Argggg!!!! Dog Attack!!!! Yet again ... but this time ... 

I just flat don't have the time or patience to deal with other peoples out of control freaking dogs! I don't want the hassle! If I have to say anything ... that's a PIA for me ... so that time I did not!

Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums - View Single Post - Argggg!!!! Dog Attack!!!! Yet again ... but this time ...

"Make Good Choices Dog!" Walking Stick in hand ... now, I apparently train other people's dogs to "Make Good Choices!" We ... will no longer be screwed with! And I take point, not my dogs, I tell my dogs stay! And it's pretty much ... get pass me ... if you can dog! And I don't want to bother apologizing to some tool if my dog rips their dog up! I don't discriminate based on breed or size ... no dog I do not gets close to mine without going thru me!! I just flat don't want to deal with the freaking crap, I use a Walking Stick (now) and I block dogs ... works out fine ... apparently. And as am I want to say ...:

User Media - TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

So yeah ... loose dog encounters kinda rub me raw, just saying.


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## WolfPack92 (May 1, 2017)

carmspack said:


> wolfPack 92
> 
> "It took me a little bit to get them apart because I had both my dogs and coffee in the other hand "
> 
> ...


No. I like walking them together.


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## WolfPack92 (May 1, 2017)

astrovan2487 said:


> I've had a similar issue with a relatives two evil dachshunds except while my dog was under control she was not on leash and on private property. These dogs are the most evil nasty animals I've ever met, the relative lets them run free, they are always running at people and other dogs barking and lunging. They do that thing where one goes in front barking and lunging while the other goes around back and tries to bite the dogs legs. They tried this on my dog and she would not have any of it. Honestly I feel like I failed my dog by not blocking them faster, she grabbed the one and would have done some damage but I told her to out and she let go. Now this lovely relative is blaming the whole situation on my dog and wants us to have the dogs meet on a daily basis to "get used to each other". I will not put my dog thru that kind of trauma again.
> Just curious...what would other people do in a similar situation? Block the small dogs, kick them away, pick up your dog, ...?


Thanks for sharing. I think that if I didn't know their dog, or my neighbors, I would've kicked it away. This was the first incident I've had like this one but an accident was bound to happen eventually..wolf isn't mean or aggressive he's just not "friendly." He isn't necessarily "unfriendly" he just isn't the type of dog to be all warm and fuzzy right off the bat. Lol


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

car2ner said:


> Oddly enough when I told people that my small mix breed (22 lbs) was iffy with other dogs, people seemed to understand. If I said the same thing about my GSDs people got defensive. Folks just aren't logical all the time.


Which just says a lot about how we perceive small vs large dogs. What does your statement say?

1. People expect small dogs to have problems with other dogs.
2. People expect large dogs to not have problems with other dogs.

And what does this reflect?

1. People don't tend to train or socialize their small dogs, and aren't expected to.
2. People tend to train and socialize their large dogs, and are expected to.

And why might this be?

1. Because small dogs aren't perceived as dangerous, even when they are.
2. Because large dogs are perceived as dangerous, even when they aren't.

The two conclusions above are completely irrational. If large dogs are expected to be trained, and thus are usually trained, they shouldn't seem dangerous because they're under control. 

However, we're not dealing with the rational part of the brain here. We're dealing with the ancient lizard brain telling a human that the large dog could kill you, and is thus something to be wary of (because in the lizard brain big dog = wolf). We're also dealing with that part of the brain looking at a little dog and telling a human that it can be easily punted across the street with minimal effort and is, therefore, not dangerous.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

please -- going for a walk with the dog is an engaged proactive endeavour
don't walk distracted -- same with walking the dog while being on the cell phone

that walk is supposed to be an opportunity to connect .

walk one dog at a time . 

you were lucky it didn't escalate or get your other dog in on a rumble , excitement without focus - little dog , the two GSDs or even you being bitten as collateral damage.


wolfpack92
No. I like walking them together.

for whose benefit?


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Kyrielle said:


> And why might this be?
> 
> 1. Because small dogs aren't perceived as dangerous, even when they are.
> 2. Because large dogs are perceived as dangerous, even when they aren't.
> ...


Maybe irrational, but perception is probably due to capability. I don't really care what that little 10 pounder's doing because I know I can punt him if I wanted to. That 50-60 pound whatever, maybe I can't. There's a perception of threat that goes with size and believe it or not, breed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> wolfpack92
> No. I like walking them together.
> 
> for whose benefit?


If the OP is anything like me, the answer is,,, mine. Most of the things I do are for my benefit. If it wasn't, I wouldn't even own them. Sometimes I take them both because I want to. Its that simple.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Kyrielle said:


> Which just says a lot about how we perceive small vs large dogs. What does your statement say?
> 
> 1. People expect small dogs to have problems with other dogs.
> 2. People expect large dogs to not have problems with other dogs.
> ...


good points. 
I was always amused, back when my big boy was just a fuzzy pup, that people were constantly asking me, "are you going to train him". They never asked that about my smaller dog. And yes, I trained her as best as she could understand.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

About 25 years ago, I found a tiny Schnauzer mix pup on the street (before they cost $500.00), We trained him like all our other dogs were trained and he was a complete normal, but small, dog. All vets were surprised that he wouldn't bite them. It was a joy. I had people in my classes who did their home work with their Chihuahuas and as a result they were obedient, fun and enjoyable little dogs.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

It makes me sad to hear that for some people walks are super stressful obstacle courses of dogs rushing out from homes, little dogs trying to launch into the jaws of controlled shepherds. 

If this was happening to me regularly, I'd start carrying a walking stick and using it liberally. 

I do agree that the owners of large, powerful "scary" breeds need to TRAIN their dogs. I was at a conference recently and had my malinois out at a break for some frisbee. Everyone was lack ohhh.. awww... a trained dog. Why is this so unusual? 

It doesn't take a genius or a lot of time to train a dog the basics. I think we (general) are making dog training too mystical and it's really not. I will say finding good training advice can be a minefield for most dog owners, and maybe this is a big part of the problem.


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## WolfPack92 (May 1, 2017)

My female is like that..everyone is always so amazed to see how smart and trained she is and I know that exact look you're talking about that they give as if it's unusual to see. 

The three of us have been going on long walks for 2 years and we're not going to stop because one ladies untrained dog ran up to us on public property. It's actually happened plenty of times with small dogs but this is the first time wolf ever nipped back. 


I think carrying some kind of defense tool could be a good idea in case something happens and it's a more powerful breed. A lot of potential threats in the outside world my two are so good on our walks but, as learned, accidents happen they may be outside your control. Anyway, my priority is the safety of my female. No one gets to her unless it's over our dead bodies!


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> It makes me sad to hear that for some people walks are super stressful obstacle courses of dogs rushing out from homes, little dogs trying to launch into the jaws of controlled shepherds.
> 
> If this was happening to me regularly, I'd start carrying a walking stick and using it liberally.
> 
> ...


Shadow has been attacked by a Golden that jumped my fence to get her, two BC's-one of which also attacked me, a Rottie and two Yorkies. The Yorkies were nasty and determined. And their owner was laughing. 
I hate walking her now, and she finds it incredibly stressful.
My attempts at fixing nasty reactivity have been useless. And while I doubt I am a genius, I am certainly not dumb. In this city it is not uncommon to run into aggressive loose dogs. And small dogs seem to be constantly loose, and generally poorly behaved. I have a Pom and a Chi that are on my lawn daily and a pair of snarky Doxies who belong to a man who does not believe in leashes apparently.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

which in turn gives animal rights groups all the ammunition they need to get officials to pile on limitations of what we can do with our dogs, what kinds of dogs we can have and how many. I'd like to see more sensible rules, like smaller fees for those who actually get a training certificate...oh wait, those same people probably don't pay their dog license fee anyhow. (turning off snark mode now)


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## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

My neighbor's small, unleashed dog ran up to Archer, my 75# 8 month old. Teeth out, and barking. I " somewhat gently shooed it away" with my size 13 steel toe I was wearing after work. Told them they may not be so lucky next time. Especially since my 2.5 year old daughter was outside. His prey drive isn't too high but he will act if he thinks my daughter is in any danger whatsoever.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Steve Strom said:


> If the OP is anything like me, the answer is,,, mine. Most of the things I do are for my benefit. If it wasn't, I wouldn't even own them. Sometimes I take them both because I want to. Its that simple.


Which is fine...if it's not detrimental to the dog(s). I have had a lot of issues with off leash dogs. In more than couple of instances the owner was walking more than one reactive dog and being overwhelmed by two yappy, pulling dogs lead to the owner losing grip on one. 



"It took me a little bit to get them apart because I had both my dogs and coffee in the other hand and the owner of the little dog was inside"

This I take issue with. If you're out walking your dog or dogs you need to have your full attention on the task. If you can't break up a fight because your hands are full then you need to unfill them somehow. Little dog's owner was completely in the wrong HOWEVER a dog still shouldn't have to be seriously injured or killed because the nearest human had too much going on.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dotbat215 said:


> Which is fine...if it's not detrimental to the dog(s). I have had a lot of issues with off leash dogs. In more than couple of instances the owner was walking more than one reactive dog and being overwhelmed by two yappy, pulling dogs lead to the owner losing grip on one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


oh I do like this.

dilemma time ! oh --- oh -- do I drop the leash or do I drop the delicious yummy mocha cafe latte which took a chunk out the rent payment --

kidding , but serious at the same time.

it might benefit the dog walker to take the two dogs at once --- multi tasking -- a task done , checked off .

I am sure the dogs , the issuey one at least , would enjoy that one on one attention and maybe get some training and good behaviour feed-back loop which helps with confidence .

I am going to add this , which wolfpack92 , volunteered in the opening email.

(reading for details) 
" have more anxiety than other owners when it comes to my dogs just because of the stigma that kind of goes with having a "big aggressive German Shepherd."


so why in the world draw more attention to yourself by walking two as a brace --

vanity , intimidation, move aside folks I am coming through ?

what do you think initiated the fight ? who do you think any on-looker thinks initiated the fight -- 

you already know what the public perception defaults to , the stigma , the image 

likely someone saw an inquisitive little puppy wuppy that came for a visit , was friendly , just sniffing and then wolfpack attack by the big old bad GSD -- so BIG , so aggessive, owner had hard time separating them. -- just bleeding a little - 

the little dog came deep into your dogs space --- right then and there, before even, you should have read and dealt -- meanwhile the little dog is all stiff legged - and your dog is giving signals galore - the button has been pushed no getting the missile back in to the silo.

you are anxious about how the public might view you - then walk one dog at a time , show the management skills and courtesy to those who don't like dogs and especially do not like GSD .

are you sure you know how to read a dog?
" looked like he had the doggy smile as I was petting him"

I would stop . what doggy smile ? 

again you got off lucky this time --- should the dog have run to your dog -- NO


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ok, I get it, I've seen people walking two dogs and once and thought, "wow, how cool!" And of course, went home and grabbed up two dogs and had the worse time trying to get them to go around the block together. 

So the next time we acquire dogs, we start walking them as a brace right form the git-go. Ah when Babs and Jenna (litter-mates) were young, I took them EVERYWHERE. The bike path -- when I'd hear the bicycles coming we would step off the path and I would put them in a SIT, and they would stay at my side like the perfect little angels (they really weren't) and I would get a lot of great remarks. 

No, I never did the coffee with two leashes. I have to admire that. I burn my hands enough trying to walk with a cup of coffee doing it with leashes, well, I am not quite that masochistic. 

But one day I realized that my dogs were feeding off of each other, not me, when we were walking together. Oh, they weren't bad. No. But I wasn't gaining anything by walking the two of them together, gaining in the relationship of the individual dogs. I realized something else, that I relax and enjoy the walk much more if I am taking just one dog at a time. Two dogs -- I am on high alert and trying to read both dogs, and trying to follow the environment and it's a lot more work. 

Look closer at the people who are relaxed with a pair of dogs. Do the dogs have training collars on? Are the dogs both young or both old, or one old and and one young? Is the human relaxed or do they seem harried. It can definitely be done. But first train them on lead alone, and have them perfect on lead first alone, then start training them together as a brace. And if there are issues with one or the other, then you really owe it to everyone, yourself most of all, to walk him separately, so that everyone is safer, you are more free to watch the environment.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Just walked to my folks house from the car-dealership, and was accosted by a little hairy white dog barking and menacing me. The owner was yelling at his dog, but the dog did not care. I did not have a dog, but as this monster came right out onto the sidewalk to give me what for, I though how much that wouldn't fly if it was a GSD. 

I walked on, and did not let it ruin my day. I might have told the yayhoo to control his darn dog, but what purpose would it serve. I was not afraid of his dog. If it would have bitten me, I would have punted it. Glad I didn't have to. And while there is unfairness, the fact is, their dog is much more likely to be damaged than to do damage. And undoing work people do with their reactive dog is not generally considered damage. So, I guess the best thing to do is to have a plan, stay vigilent, and walk one dog at a time, leaving your phone in your pocket and your coffee at home.


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## WolfPack92 (May 1, 2017)

carmspack said:


> oh I do like this.
> 
> dilemma time ! oh --- oh -- do I drop the leash or do I drop the delicious yummy mocha cafe latte which took a chunk out the rent payment --
> 
> ...


You are absolutely ridiculous and, quite frankly, very obnoxious lady. I think that if you want to actually have new members and other GSD enthusiasts on this site you should stop with your attitude.

Thanks to everyone else for your thoughtful inputs and stories. Good luck to everyone else with your battles of angry little dogs.


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## WolfPack92 (May 1, 2017)

selzer said:


> Ok, I get it, I've seen people walking two dogs and once and thought, "wow, how cool!" And of course, went home and grabbed up two dogs and had the worse time trying to get them to go around the block together.
> 
> So the next time we acquire dogs, we start walking them as a brace right form the git-go. Ah when Babs and Jenna (litter-mates) were young, I took them EVERYWHERE. The bike path -- when I'd hear the bicycles coming we would step off the path and I would put them in a SIT, and they would stay at my side like the perfect little angels (they really weren't) and I would get a lot of great remarks.
> 
> ...


Interesting


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Wolfpack, walking two dogs at once is not a problem! The small dog is the issue, not you. If you enjoy coffee on morning walks, why not? The coffee isn't up for trial, either. It's not like you are losing control of your dogs because you are sipping coffee. I don't get it, don't people live with their dogs as companions and enjoy life _with_ their dogs, not _for_ their dogs?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Muskeg said:


> Wolfpack, walking two dogs at once is not a problem! The small dog is the issue, not you. If you enjoy coffee on morning walks, why not? The coffee isn't up for trial, either. It's not like you are losing control of your dogs because you are sipping coffee. I don't get it, don't people live with their dogs as companions and enjoy life _with_ their dogs, not _for_ their dogs?


If you have a dog with issues, than you should have one responsible human handle that one dog. Issues could be fear-reactive, human aggression, dog aggression, car-chasing, squirrel obsessed, or anything else that might mean adjusting how, where, when, or around whom you take your dog. 

If you have your dogs trained to heel properly, and they are bomb-proof, than you can take half a dozen and a cup of coffee for a walk. Multiple dogs, and coffee are not the problem. 

Multiple dogs when one has issues, is the problem. The coffee is just something that totally freaks me out. It sounds like, by the dialogue, that the OP could not prevent the contact because she had a coffee in her hand. That could have been set down or thrown down in a second, and should not factor into the story at all. The OP factored it in. 

With a dog with issues, you usually have a human with an incomplete bond with a dog. That dog should be walked singly to keep himself and others safe, sure. But he should also be walked singly because this walk is a time to improve the bond of trust with the owner. 

Right the owner of the little dog is to blame for letting their little dog run unabated to a large scary tethered dog. I really don't think anyone is questioning that. Not really. But we cannot change other's behavior, only our own. So we can sit back and say "They should have..." and we will be perfectly correct to do so. But it doesn't change the fact that our dog had a really negative experience that might have not happened if we had our attention on one dog and our hands free, so that we could be Superman to our dog and stop the speeding bullet before it hits our dog. At the end of that day, we are not a victim, helpless and furious. We are a survivor, and we protected our dog, and did not allow a set back to our training. 

We can only change our own behavior. And even it if it 100% someone else's fault, the incident is not a total fail, total loss, if we can replay it, and determine what we will do differently in the future to prevent it from going that way again, regardless to the behavior and management of the other neighborhood dogs.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> if we can replay it, and determine what we will do differently in the future to prevent it from going that way again, regardless to the behavior and management of the other neighborhood dogs.


That would be a Flashlight for night time walks and my trusty walking stick! 

So now I carry stuff on walks sigh ... oh well better to have it and not need it then to need it not have it ...lesson learned!


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> Wolfpack, walking two dogs at once is not a problem! The small dog is the issue, not you. If you enjoy coffee on morning walks, why not? The coffee isn't up for trial, either. It's not like you are losing control of your dogs because you are sipping coffee. I don't get it, don't people live with their dogs as companions and enjoy life _with_ their dogs, not _for_ their dogs?


On a friday evening I tend to take my wine and my dog for a walk :grin2:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

KaiserAus said:


> On a friday evening I tend to take my wine and my dog for a walk :grin2:


I'd have to have that in a brown bag around here.


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## KaiserAus (Dec 16, 2016)

selzer said:


> I'd have to have that in a brown bag around here.


I put it in my Starbucks traveller mug


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

KaiserAus said:


> I put it in my Starbucks traveller mug


Use your camel pack for coffee. I cannot see myself walking Deja and sipping coffee. She is super obedient but not a robot. That crazy hot Starbucks coffee would scar me when she sees a squirrel.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have a cheap referee whistle with me that I plan to use out loud when a strange dog comes running at her. I have trained Deja with it for the non-verbal recall so it doesn't startle when she hears it for the first time and it brings her back to me too.
For most dogs it is an unusual sound so I hope it stops their focus briefly and then I can step in front of her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

we know the GSD were on leash, two in one hand .

maybe the incident could not be stopped because the GSD were walking well ahead of the owner .

the encounter with the dog would have happened before the owner could catch up - so no blocking of the little dog.

I have done brace obedience and brace conformation in competition.

both dogs , mother and daughter , were highly trained , titled and one had 2 Dog World Awards of Canine Distinction and the younger one had one .

they would go with me , younger one on the inside position, in a casual but correct heel , happy and well mannered . 

they were good ambassadors and got a lot of admiring looks . 

when they were in a team I might have been marching in a charity parade -- or in the Easter parade , where I did cart-work , or demonstrations at the Sportsmen Show - before there were "superdog" demonstrations.

I remember one phenomenal trainer who had two Borzois doing synchronized obedience . To see those two Borzoi fly over the high jump was like watching a balletic movement . 

Wynn Strickland - saw her doing a brace routine -- dogs relaxed and happy . Positive image , for training and for the breed.

Now there are lots of opportunities for fun activities , for dog and handler , brace agility, brace obedience , brace dance 

I am so impressed with this routine - brace CD with a breed that is so difficult to train -- 

here is what a nice brace of dogs looks like 
this is what it looks like --- -- 




 -- 

you can tell there is a connection --


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Love the wagging tails! Those are happy dogs, and huskies are NOT an easy breed to work with!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Love the wagging tails! Those are happy dogs, and huskies are NOT an easy breed to work with!


I know ! 

pretty amazing .


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## Bjax (Nov 23, 2016)

Kyrielle said:


> The two conclusions above are completely irrational. If large dogs are expected to be trained, and thus are usually trained, they shouldn't seem dangerous because they're under control.
> 
> However, we're not dealing with the rational part of the brain here. We're dealing with the ancient lizard brain telling a human that the large dog could kill you, and is thus something to be wary of (because in the lizard brain big dog = wolf). We're also dealing with that part of the brain looking at a little dog and telling a human that it can be easily punted across the street with minimal effort and is, therefore, not dangerous.


 
To be fair the lizard brain isn't exactly wrong or Chihuahuas and dachshunds would have fatality counts proportional to their bite statistics. A large dog is objectively physically more dangerous than a small dog. To be killed by a toy dog would essential require the same circumstance as being beaten to death with a wiffle bat, you would have to hold still and it would take a while.


On a side note, I had to kick a corgi tonight. We were walking past a house when the couple came home. They opened the door and the corgi ran out. It stopped about 20 feet from us, let out a growl, and ran in to engage. I pulled Ajax behind me while telling the owner to call back their dog. Dog got to us first, I kicked it, they called it and it ran back to the house. I am so sick and tired of getting attacked by off leased dogs when I take my dog for a walk in my own neighborhood. Current count: yorkie, same shiba TWICE, Jindo, a great dane (who may as well been off lease since it dragged its owner across the street in order to seize Ajax by the back of the neck) and now a Corgi. I am also not counting all unleashed dogs who have approached us as attacks. I returned a friendly lab and a friendly shepherd mix to their owners on separate occasions when they followed us home. Why do the dogs with bad intentions outnumber the friendly ones? I'm trying really hard to train Ajax not to engage dogs himself and incidents like this are really detrimental to his training. Frustrated. Sorry for the rant.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Bjax said:


> To be fair the lizard brain isn't exactly wrong or Chihuahuas and dachshunds would have fatality counts proportional to their bite statistics. A large dog is objectively physically more dangerous than a small dog.


Exactly. My experience is that large dog owners are more on top of training and management because their dog's size increases the risk of major injuries or death if the dog goes on the offensive.

But...

If I am coming up to a dog I don't know I assume, until proven otherwise, that it might be poorly trained or aggressive. And when I am assessing the risk around a certain dog, I will see more risk in a larger dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My girl used to "squish" bad dogs. Before she learned to bite. One little dog ran up on her and bra ha haed in her face. She turned the other cheek and tried to walk away three times. The dog kept coming. I stupidly did nothing. (long time ago) third time the little dog snarls in her face she throws him on the ground and smooshes him with both front feet and made a very frightening sound. He peed himself but she did not bite him. Good girl.

Unfortunately, she is no longer as tolerant. At least I am way better at my part. And she will allow me to do it and stand down, IF I do my part.

There used to be some yappers that chased us in Florida and I shot them with Spray Shield and they scattered, it worked like a charm---its 10 bucks and it saved their lives because that was with my old male who thought little dogs might just be little critters. Between his prey drive and her temper, shooting them with the Spray Shield was a no brainer. 

These days I am SUPER proactive. I believe my young male is one who would be hard to push to harm another dog, especially a small one, but no sense taking chances.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

LOL! One of the GSD's I used to have was super fast. The neighbour's mixed breed GSD couldn't keep up with her, as she ran circles around him. 

He waited until she ran out of steam, then knocked her down and sat on her! It was all in play, so I LMAO to see another dog get the better of her...


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Here you go OP

https://www.chewy.com/petsafe-spray...M_qLj6S0ptykAr_kpWouoaAuFr8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

The picture on the package is ironically a lady protecting a yapper from a golden I think. But I have had good success with this against yappers. If the owners freak out just yell it's only citronella. Doesn't hurt the little poopsie


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Kyrielle -- lizard brains aside - big dog little dog all carry teeny weeny tiny winy bacteria which can infect and kill.

it isn't the savagery of the bite . Wild caninds , your wolves of the packs , the "community" animals all have build in
behaviours and signaling which inhibit or stave off the fight .

most "wolves" in a fight don't finish it on the spot -- they go their ways, injured , and open to life ending infection.

to the subject of the thread then -- there was that moment when the two dogs met "sniffing" where there would have
been clear posturing showing intentions . 

that was the moment when the handler , before even , should have been present and focused and proactive .


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Sometimes people doing a casual dog greeting may also miss the subtle but very important signs that the greeting is NOT going to go well. It may be helpful to OP and others with semi-reactive dogs to watch this sample of footage from Sarah Kalnajs from her excellent video series -- it shows two dogs meeting, and to a novice it might look okay at first, but she points out the subtle signs that mean it's NOT okay...and then it erupts:
Blue Dog Movie Template


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Here I am telling everyone to walk one dog at a time, and there I am coming out the IN at the vet with a pair of totally untrained, out of control dogs today. 

Ok, it really isn't _that_ bad. Ok, maybe yes it was. 

The vet's office has one of those counter-areas where, you walk in, weigh your dog, check in, etc. The waiting area is there, and then you go along the counter turning 90 degrees with it to go into the little exam rooms. When you come out of the exam rooms you continue to follow their area and turn another 90 degrees and pay your bill and leave out of the other door, which comes out on the same porch and has its own set of steps. 

So I got this great idea to weigh all the dogs yesterday. Of course, I didn't start this escapade until 4:30 on my way to the car wash. The vet is open until 6 on Mondays so, I rushed home and threw Odessa in the car and drove up there got her weighed, and rushed home for Lassie. 

Then I got Jenna and Kojak, since they are kenneled together. Then Babs and Quinn. These are two highly trained elderly dogs (though Jenna is still not an obedience-dog), and two youngsters who are in training. So that went not too badly. 

I rushed back home again, threw Babs and Quinn in their area, ran around the house for Joy, and flew back up their, making it at 6:02pm, they were still open, so 7 down, 8 to go. 

Today I started with Milla as everyone would have to go through her kennel to get out anyway. I finished with her and put her in an unused fenced, wood-chipped area. And got Ninja weighed. 

So then I decided to get the ones that would be more difficult to get out, the skinnies. I started with Cujo2 and Hepsi. Cujo2 I got back at 18 months old about 3 years ago. He really hasn't had any training, and almost no socialization since then. His previous owner was a retired police officer, he and his wife were in their 80's and they had to move in with the sister, and well, I got him back. Not sure how socialized he was there. And Hepzibah has bad hips. I've taken her to my sister's a few times as a youngster, but no classes. She's sweet and very soft, so no problem at all to manage, classes or not. 

So I am coming back out the IN, with 2 big dogs dragging me right into the arms of an older guy who just got to the top of the steps. If either of my dogs were questionable in anyway, someone might have gotten bitten today, and it would have been all my fault. Instead Cujo and Hepsi got loves from another shepherd owner. 

I got them home, and then brought up Karma and Ramona who are kenneled together, and were a lot easier than I had thought they would be. Karma has had some training, she's about 4.5 years, but Ramona is 16 months old, and hasn't been to class but one time when the girls took her to a kids and dogs seminar, and the end of last summer when she was quite the handful. Today though, she seemed to know what to do, and managing her with her mother was no problem. Weird, huh?

Two more trips, for Heidi and Bear, and everyone was weighed. Yay! I think a cup of coffee would have been the straw that broke the camels back though. 

Note: no children, dogs, or older guys were injured in the making of this post. I did break a nail though.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Magwart said:


> Sometimes people doing a casual dog greeting may also miss the subtle but very important signs that the greeting is NOT going to go well. It may be helpful to OP and others with semi-reactive dogs to watch this sample of footage from Sarah Kalnajs from her excellent video series -- it shows two dogs meeting, and to a novice it might look okay at first, but she points out the subtle signs that mean it's NOT okay...and then it erupts:
> Blue Dog Movie Template


thanks for posting this. So many people would see the restless dog and think that it was just anxious to start playing, and be completely wrong.


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Welp, there goes my streak of avoiding loose dogs. I walked down to a culdesac with Chandler and when I turned around some Jerk was chatting with a neighbor and his Shi Tzu and Pom were running wild. I tried to slip away while they were distracted by some sprinklers but an black, 80lb dog is pretty hard to sneak around with. 

So basically these dogs chased me around and the guy watched and did nothing while I'm dealing with his dogs antagonizing mine. Chandler did okay....he tried really hard to ignore them and focus on me but he ended up loosing his cool a bit.

I've had over a dozen incidents like this in the almost two yrs I've had my dog. It is infuriating. And only one time has it been a younger owner (too young to be walking his dog alone, but I digress)...it is always middle aged people. Here I thought we got wiser as we got older but I guess not?:wink2:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Magwart said:


> Sometimes people doing a casual dog greeting may also miss the subtle but very important signs that the greeting is NOT going to go well. It may be helpful to OP and others with semi-reactive dogs to watch this sample of footage from Sarah Kalnajs from her excellent video series -- it shows two dogs meeting, and to a novice it might look okay at first, but she points out the subtle signs that mean it's NOT okay...and then it erupts:
> Blue Dog Movie Template


I get that they're trying to demonstrate something with the dogs, but the main thing I would take from it is how much it was influenced and created by what they're doing with the leashes. I look at it as a demonstration of what not to do. Obedience, a little more distance, move away completely, almost anything but whats in that video should be the lesson from it.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> I get that they're trying to demonstrate something with the dogs, but the main thing I would take from it is how much it was influenced and created by what they're doing with the leashes. I look at it as a demonstration of what not to do. Obedience, a little more distance, move away completely, almost anything but whats in that video should be the lesson from it.


I wasn't very fond of the look of it. The black dog was clearly uneasy by them circling around it. Both dogs were getting amped up. And the one kept focusing on the other.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Kazel said:


> I wasn't very fond of the look of it. The black dog was clearly uneasy by them circling around it. Both dogs were getting amped up. And the one kept focusing on the other.


Sometimes rather then get buried in detail, if you just remember, "Don't let them do that" people'd be better off.


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Sometimes rather then get buried in detail, if you just remember, "Don't let them do that" people'd be better off.


Very true, good point.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Kazel said:


> I wasn't very fond of the look of it. The black dog was clearly uneasy by them circling around it. Both dogs were getting amped up. And the one kept focusing on the other.


It was part of a shelter temperament test. She has many hours of footage from temp testing that she uses to illustrate different forms of reactivity. Her video series (esp. "Am I safe?") is extraordinary.

Dogs meeting in close quarters happens in real life. It happened here with OP. Sometimes the lingering to say hi without realizing the danger is where things go wrong -- thinking the wagging tail means "howdy" and not "I'm stressed and may have to defend myself" is incredibly common in people who haven't been taught differently. I used to see it in novice shelter volunteers walking dogs all the time. They had no idea the dog they were walking was a hairsbreadth away from feeling like it needed to fight with the other dogs being walked nearby. The dogs were having a silent conversation that the humans weren't picking up on.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yes, the video was trying to make a point. An experienced dog-walker would have avoided the situation by not letting the dogs interact, but the whole point of the video was to teach people to interpret canine body language. So many people read dogs wrong, and that's why there are so many dog bites!

Stop The 77


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

If I drive a big truck, and I follow the rules of the road, is it my responsibility if a person driving a small sports car runs a red light and crashes into me? I would do all I could to avoid an accident, but the rules still hold.

Why are dog owners expected to be 100% defensive walkers? If a small dog is off leash and violating the rules, and acting aggressively toward a person's GSDs, well, sometimes running a red light gets you killed as a driver and as a little dog. 

It's very sad, the person running the red light might have any number of reasons for doing so, maybe the small dog escaped somehow, but it is what happens and while the driver of the truck might feel terrible, if they were not in violation of any traffic laws, they should not be blamed. Nor should a GSD owner who is not violating any laws. 

We need to recognize that dogs are dogs, and small dog owners must be held accountable. 

I have never had a dangerous encounter with a small dog, and I would do all I could to avoid one, but I am wary of people who think that a GSD must be held accountable for anything a small dog does, and then blamed if their larger dogs defend themselves.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

muskeg -- not all people have "the mountains" for their back door.

most dogs and most people live in urban situations where there is chaos , and 
noise and congestion and a need for understanding that every one may not love 
your dog or dogs as you do - may fear them -- try to avoid them , or be attracted, 
curious and may want to make contact , invited or not , or have their doggy get its
social needs met by "friendsing" your dog .

complex society . 

irony is the owner (OP) 
"I think I have more anxiety than other owners when it comes to my dogs just because of the stigma that kind of goes with having a "big aggressive German Shepherd."

takes two GSD -- that makes an impression . We don't know what impression the person was trying to make- 
the Viking beast master -- or the lady with the happy huskie dog brace ?

To many unsettling . Depends a great deal on how these dogs walk and behave and what considerations are given to other people sharing the space .

so to all your traffic accident examples - the answer is the same -- the driver and the walker need to be PRESENT ,
in the moment , aware and in control 

no distracted driving . 
no distracted walking -- behaviour can shift in a nano second .


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## islanddog (Jun 27, 2016)

Oh what the heck, here I go...

I don't have a gsd anymore, just a middle sized dog, but uncontrolled off-leash dogs are still a curse. Friendly ones are few and far between, friendly ones are easy to recognize--they are the ones that are socially adept and take their cues from other dogs. 

I am in so many forums/facebook groups now (as I don't have a gsd, I'm still looking for a new forum home) and so many people are reduced to limiting where they walk, when they walk, and how they walk their leashed dogs. 

There is a difference between offering helpful advice (advice unasked for is usually unwelcome though) and victim blame & shame. 

*Expecting everyone to be ready and able to not only control their own dog, but everyone else's dog is ... well... not reasonable* *(<----understatement)*

Constructive step by step advice without the victim blaming might be helpful and welcome... because loose dogs happen, it's good to have plan.

Thanks, done my ranty...


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> If I drive a big truck, and I follow the rules of the road, is it my responsibility if a person driving a small sports car runs a red light and crashes into me? I would do all I could to avoid an accident, but the rules still hold.
> 
> Why are dog owners expected to be 100% defensive walkers? If a small dog is off leash and violating the rules, and acting aggressively toward a person's GSDs, well, sometimes running a red light gets you killed as a driver and as a little dog.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% with you....that is the way things should be. However society (well, I can only speak for American Society) views dog ownership very differently from car ownership. 

To own a car and drive it requires testing and licensing, then you hit the road and there are a million laws to follow and real actual consequences when you violate them. And, I think, people are afraid to die or be seriously injured so they take the whole thing more seriously. 

Any dumb dumb can get a dog. There is no test and the laws vary and often times aren't enforced. So you end up with norms and expectations that aren't based on anything but opinion and perception. 

Last night i could have picked up one of the little dogs haranguing me and tossed it but then you get the risk of confrontation, you get a guy calling the cops saying you abused his poor innocent dog, you get someone wanting your homeowner's ins to pay for vet bills....even if nothing ever comes of it, you get a whole mess of trouble and for what? In the moment it seems easier to walk away. 

I did call the dog warden, so we'll see if anything happens...but I doubt it.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Thanks Dotbat- you make some great points on the differences. I just wish there was more responsibility on all sides when it comes to dogs.

For Carm- every work day for four years I walked three, and then four large dogs in a downtown city area and to a bike path with many people of all types- tourists, bikers, "Segway" tourists, dog walkers, skiers. Sometimes we went by crowds of people. I never had a problem controlling my dogs. 

I would let my dogs off leash to play fetch and train in the town park and at the lagoon during those walks- we never had any major issues even when another dog was there playing fetch as well. 

I am certainly not a newbie to walking multiple dogs both on and off leash in cities. 

If we were rushed by an aggressive and very stupid small dog, well, I would call my dogs to heel, and fend it off, but with multiple small dogs, or a surprise type attack I would be incensed if my dogs were blamed for defending themselves and me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Muskeg said:


> If I drive a big truck, and I follow the rules of the road, is it my responsibility if a person driving a small sports car runs a red light and crashes into me? I would do all I could to avoid an accident, but the rules still hold.
> 
> Why are dog owners expected to be 100% defensive walkers? If a small dog is off leash and violating the rules, and acting aggressively toward a person's GSDs, well, sometimes running a red light gets you killed as a driver and as a little dog.
> 
> ...


I think most of us would encourage defensive driving practices, and many of us avoid collisions by the use of our breaks and by paying attention to what is going on around us rather than fiddling with our coffee and talking on the phone while we are trying to ride a motorcycle that we haven't quite figured out yet. 

And if that red car crashes the red light, we are still in a world of hurt even if it wasn't our fault. But if we can speed up or slam on our breaks and avoid the collision, then maybe it makes sense for people to encourage walking 1 dog instead of 2, especially if one of them has "issues." And to leave the coffee at home, because 2 dogs (1 with issues) and a coffee, is too much. 

There is absolutely nothing you can do about another driver flying through a red light. Nothing. All YOU can do is to drive alert and defensively. 

And there is absolutely nothing you can do to prevent someone's loose animal from charging toward you. But if you have only as much as you can handle, you have a much better chance of getting out of the situation without anyone getting hurt, including the other dog. 

There are those that think that if your dog will attack it should sport a muzzle. I am not saying that. But, with a trained dog (singular), and nothing else to prevent you from protecting your dog in your hands, you can give your dog a command, LEAVE IT, and HEEL, and walk through a charging, lunging, barking circling Yorkie mix 100 yards to your vehicle, and unlock your car and get your dog into it without injury to anyone or any dog. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. 

If you have a dog that WILL attack a dog that comes up to it, (will not listen to your LEAVE IT!) then walk it on its own, and leave the coffee at home, and carry a fog horn or some Halt! or a stick or something to prevent that dog from getting to your dog. 

I had a boss who always said that accidents were a culmination of careless actions -- maybe not the exact words. But you just don't run a stop sign, you are running late for work, you are thinking about a project deadline meeting, you are shuffling your radio dial to find the news, and the other guy is driving his kid to the hospital, so he fails to notice that you aren't slowing down. It isn't his fault, but it was a culmination of actions that added up to an accident. No we can't always avoid them. We are not robots either. But if I look at a situation like this, I can ask the question, "how can I make my dog safer?" Or, I can just be a victim of loose dogs and clean bloody wounds up, and rant on the internet about careless owners. And sure I'd be in the right, my dog was leashed, theirs wasn't. But it would also be true that I did not do everything I could have to protect my dog. And just because our dogs are probably not going to be on the losing end of serious dog aggression, is no excuse to allow it to happen, or rather, to not take all the steps that are reasonable to prevent it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"If I drive a big truck, and I follow the rules of the road, is it my responsibility if a person driving a small sports car runs a red light and crashes into me? I would do all I could to avoid an accident, but the rules still hold"

well there are industries which calculate risk and insurance companies which take that data into consideration and charge according to risk 

-- sports car , red sports car , gender and age of driver - all affect the insurance premium 

you don't want to be penalized then conduct your self accordingly and don't contribute to the actuarial data 

GSD has enough problems with public perception - including being accepted for housing in a rental situation


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

This is one reason, even with the hot weather and wanting to get our walks done early, that I don't walk both dogs in our neighborhood together yet. I'm just not sure enough of she-pup's reactions. I do intend to do some trial walks soon. Hands will be only holding the leash and no earphones will be in my ears. 

I have walked them both together in a park that is normally dog empty in the mornings. It is about balancing risks. I really don't like not being able to walk both dogs in peace because someone can't be bothered to train and control their dog. This is an on-going issue that I don't think we will ever stop complaining about. All we can do is make sure we keep working with our dogs, helping them learn how to be good neighbors. Hopefully we can inspire someone, maybe, to bother to train their dog. 

There have been plenty of times when someone told us "I wish our dogs could behave like that" and we tell them, "they can". I assume most dogs are normal, just not taught well or have the correct expectation put on them.


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