# Potential rehoming a 3yo w/ bite history



## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Admins can you remove this thread? I think I found an adopter. Thank you all for your help and comments.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I would start with a good trainer. If you find a good balanced trainer who has successfully worked with GSDs (get references) they can help you make this decision. You don't want to make a decision based on emotion, which can run high after a biting and lunging incident, especially involving kids.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

car2ner said:


> I would start with a good trainer. If you find a good balanced trainer who has successfully worked with GSDs (get references) they can help you make this decision. You don't want to make a decision based on emotion, which can run high after a biting and lunging incident, especially involving kids.


thanks for the reply we have tried training, spent thousands of dollars. Problem is we don’t trust him. Once the trust is gone it’s tough.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Is he a well bred dog from a reputable breeder? Have you contacted the breeder for advice and assistance? Is he unpredictable in other situations??? Perhaps someone experienced will have contacts for a real work type situation for him where he is limited in opportunities to show this behavior.

Not enough info to suggest whether to PTS or if rehoming is an option. Had a friend/client who imported a pup who had a near similar history - broker rehomed the pup quickly and he was fine in different situation where he was not given that same type of opportunity.

Lee


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

wolfstraum said:


> Is he a well bred dog from a reputable breeder? Have you contacted the breeder for advice and assistance? Is he unpredictable in other situations??? Perhaps someone experienced will have contacts for a real work type situation for him where he is limited in opportunities to show this behavior.
> 
> Not enough info to suggest whether to PTS or if rehoming is an option. Had a friend/client who imported a pup who had a near similar history - broker rehomed the pup quickly and he was fine in different situation where he was not given that same type of opportunity.
> 
> Lee


Thanks Lee.. unfortunately he is from a puppy mill, not a breeder. We found this out about a month after we got him. I think he would be ok living with a single person who had a lot of land so he can run.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm always curious why people think a dog with a bite history needs land to run free on? I don't think that's ever a viable option. 

Nobody here knows what happened with the bites so nobody here can give you advise on euthanizing this dog. It would be unethical to do so. 

You need to contact a GOOD trainer like Erich Grasso, Ronnie Burmer (if he's ever in the New England area anymore), etc, people who truly understand the dogs and temperaments and nerve, to evauluate this dog in person. You said you've spent thousands trying to train him. Who was that trainer? What was the training methods? What is the pedigree behind this dog (could be a clue on temperament in that)? Just because he was from a puppy mill doesn't mean they didn't get their hands on stable dogs that are just not easy dogs. 

What area in Mass are you from and how far are you willing to travel to get this dog properly evaluated?


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

OP i’ve updated your header to better reflect the current conversation. Once you’ve had this dog properly evaluated, deemed safe and are ready to provide more info - Feel free to post in the Non urgent rescue section. There are pinned threads at the top to review the guidelines.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I'm always curious why people think a dog with a bite history needs land to run free on? I don't think that's ever a viable option.
> 
> Nobody here knows what happened with the bites so nobody here can give you advise on euthanizing this dog. It would be unethical to do so.
> 
> ...


thanks for the reply. The trust is broken between us and the dog, that can never be repaired. 

I was hoping someone might want him and be willing to work with him. But I do know that’s asking a lot with a bite history.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Niptuman said:


> thanks for the reply. The trust is broken between us and the dog, that can never be repaired.
> 
> I was hoping someone might want him and be willing to work with him. But I do know that’s asking a lot with a bite history.


Then have him properly evaluated by a person who works with working dogs. Again - nobody here can ethically advise you on what to do nor should anyone here take this dog based on this post. If you can answer the questions I asked, perhaps someone can steer you in the direction you need to start this process.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Then have him properly evaluated by a person who works with working dogs. Again - nobody here can ethically advise you on what to do nor should anyone here take this dog based on this post. If you can answer the questions I asked, perhaps someone can steer you in the direction you need to start this process.


Ok thank you. That is great advice.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Niptuman said:


> hi I have a healthy male 3 year old gsd in Massachusetts. Unfortunately he has bitten my son back in January and then last week he lunged at him, he didn’t bite him this time but did lunge and growl. Is there any hope in rehoming him with a bite history? Or is euthanizing him my only option?
> Thanks


I know this is after the fact, but were you there when he actually bit your son? Can you describe the event? How old is your son? Growling is a warning and shows bite inhibition at that very moment. When you mention 'lunging'; was he on leash or crated? I do know that dogs don't forget their bite but it doesn't mean he needs to be put down at this moment so thank you for reaching out here. I don't think any rescue will take him with a bite history. I hope you can find him another home through trainers or this forum. In the meantime keep him separated from your child. Has he shown any growling, lunging to you or anyone else besides to your son? Do you have other children in the home? I hope you realize that he is just an animal who reacted from instincts based on the situation, back ground and genetics. Manage him wisely to protect him from harming anyone else. If that is possible, hopefully you can take some time to find the best home for him. He still needs his exercise and playtime as long that is safe for you.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

How serious was the bite? I had a dog that would bite children that tried to hug her, but it was always a warning, and only left a red mark on the skin. Needless to say, we kept her well away from children, or supervised VERY carefully if they wanted to pet her, and never had a serious incident with her.

She would also growl, then snap if she felt strangers were invading her den space, which included the car as well as the house.

So, circumstances of the bite (if you can tell us) are important to know.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

something you didn't address - how is your son's behavior towards the dog? Does he tease the dog? Did he hit the dog? Did he pull the dog' tail? Take the dog's toys? Biting is defensive. 

It sounds like the problem is between the dog and your son. I would contact your local shelter and explain the situation. They will try to find your dog a home without children. You do not have to destroy the dog, just find him an appropriate home. Having shelter dogs I am of the opinion that people are way too quick to blame the dog and destroy it to solve a problem, sometimes just removing the dog from the situation is all that is necessary. Please recognize that a dog is a life, not a broken toy. And do not get another dog until your child is old enough to care for it.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> something you didn't address - how is your son's behavior towards the dog? Does he tease the dog? Did he hit the dog? Did he pull the dog' tail? Take the dog's toys? Biting is defensive.
> 
> It sounds like the problem is between the dog and your son. I would contact your local shelter and explain the situation. They will try to find your dog a home without children. You do not have to destroy the dog, just find him an appropriate home. Having shelter dogs I am of the opinion that people are way too quick to blame the dog and destroy it to solve a problem, sometimes just removing the dog from the situation is all that is necessary. Please recognize that a dog is a life, not a broken toy. And do not get another dog until your child is old enough to care for it.


Thanks. I’m hoping to find a home for him.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Have you had this dog from a puppy? What led up to the bite and this most recent event?


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Slamdunc said:


> Have you had this dog from a puppy? What led up to the bite and this most recent event?


Yes.. he was resource guarding a bone, we didn’t know he had it. The most recent event was not resource guarding, my son leaned over his crate to say hi and he lunged out at his legs..


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Never leave a dog with resources in the presence of a kid. That probably led to his suspicion of the child when leaning over (challenging for a dog) the crate, which means he was/felt cornered. All and all it seems like a nervous dog in the wrong situation and an inexperienced home. No blame but a combination of circumstances. The dog's life is on the line. Hope someone scoops him up quickly


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Never leave a dog with resources in the presence of a kid. That probably led to his suspicion of the child when leaning over (challenging for a dog) the crate, which means he was/felt cornered. All and all it seems like a nervous dog in the wrong situation and an inexperienced home. No blame but a combination of circumstances. The dog's life is on the line. Hope someone scoops him up quickly


Yes exactly… you are right on… I am hoping there is someone out there for him, it breaks my heart to have to put him down…


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

This a pic of him


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

Niptuman said:


> Yes exactly… you are right on… I am hoping there is someone out there for him, it breaks my heart to have to put him down…


I think you should reach out to the trainers @Jax08 suggested and get their evaluation. They may be able to connect you with someone who would be willing and able to take the dog into their home. The situation you’ve described doesn’t sound like a dog that needs to be put down so much as a dog that needs the right home. I understand where you’re coming from about the broken trust and if you’re honest about why you’re rehoming him, I think you could find a good place for him. It will probably take time. Best of luck to you.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

Work through a trainer if you want to re-home him to someone more experienced. I had a dog with a similar problem, and I was not experienced enough to address it on my own. We were in a situation where we could either put serious cash into a good trainer and the results would still be a dog who couldn't be around strangers without being monitored carefully, or we could re-home him. We took him to a trainer, had him evaluated, and the trainer suggested we re-home him to someone more experienced and found the person for us. He is now in a better home and doing well.

Ronny Burmer is in Northern Mass. He was the trainer that worked with us. He is very experienced with aggression, and will be able to help you. I suggest you contact him or another experienced trainer and get the dog evaluated before making any decisions about re-homing or euthanasia.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

If you make the desicion to euthanize him before he has been evaluated by someone who can help you, you could put a dog down that could have potentially found a more suitable home and lived a good rest of his life. Please don't do that. Talk to a trainer. That's what they're there for. .


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Did I miss the response regarding what training he had for those thousands of dollars you spent?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sunflowers said:


> Did I miss the response regarding what training he had for those thousands of dollars you spent?


Nope. He's not answering those questions that might help direct him towards someone that can properly evaluate the dog.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> Nope. He's not answering those questions that might help direct him towards someone that can properly evaluate the dog.


When he was a puppy he did the puppy kindergarten all the way up through basic obedience. After the bite incident the training recommended more basic obedience training so that’s what I did. I also put him in doggy daycare to socialize with other dogs. I am hoping someone would be willing to work with him, with the proper trainer. Like I said before the trust is broken between us and the dog, no amount of training could ever get me to trust him again.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I know of a similar situation, a young dog bit a child he grew up with since a puppy, the kid had to have numerous stitches. The dog was removed from the house immediately, stayed with a friend, was evaluated.

Long story short, he went on to become a very successful police K9, very loved and respected in the community. I’ve seen a few pics of him in the newspaper over the years, with drugs he helped to find. I very much admire his original family for doing the right thing and finding someone to help.

Please do find a trainer to evaluate him. Totally understand about trust, you need to think about your child first.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Niptuman said:


> After the bite incident the training recommended more basic obedience training so that’s what I did. I also put him in doggy daycare to socialize with other dogs. I am hoping someone would be willing to work with him, with the proper trainer. Like I said before the trust is broken between us and the dog, no amount of training could ever get me to trust him again.


People have asked repeatedly what age is the child? How badly was he injured in this "bite incident"? I'm guessing not badly hurt at all, given that you allow your child to "say hello" to the dog while he's in his crate!

You have lost trust? How do you think your dog feels? You keep putting him in compromising positions and expect him to what exactly? He's showing a good deal of restraint to lunge and not bite, but the bigger question is why would you allow it in the first place? Couldn't you see from the dog's body language that he was uncomfortable? They typically telegraph their emotions quite clearly prior to a lunge or a bite.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> People have asked repeatedly what age is the child? How badly was he injured in this "bite incident"? I'm guessing not badly hurt at all, given that you allow your child to "say hello" to the dog while he's in hos crate!
> 
> You have lost trust? How do you think your dog feels? You keep putting in compromising positions and expect him to what exactly? He's showing a good deal of restraint to lunge and not bite, but the bigger question is why would you allow it in the first place? Couldn't you see from the dog's body language that he was uncomfortable? They typically telegraph their emotions quite clearly prior to a lunge or a bite.


Thanks Tim. I think I got what I needed from this group. Does anyone know how to delete the thread? I can’t see an option to delete it.

My son was 14 at the time, he bit him in the face. Drew blood but no hospital visit was necessary.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Niptuman said:


> When he was a puppy he did the puppy kindergarten all the way up through basic obedience. After the bite incident the training recommended more basic obedience training so that’s what I did. I also put him in doggy daycare to socialize with other dogs. I am hoping someone would be willing to work with him, with the proper trainer. Like I said before the trust is broken between us and the dog, no amount of training could ever get me to trust him again.



I didn't tell you to take him to training to trust him again. I told you to have a good working dog trainer evaluate him for proper temperament to determine if you could rehome him. And then asked you questions that, if you had answered, could have helped direct you to trainers in your area that could do so. 

A resource guarding issue over a bone is not a reason to kill a dog. If you don't want to put any more effort into him, then call rescues and see if one is willing to take on the liability. At least then he will get a proper evaluation to determine if it's a nerve/temperament issue or a rules issue.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

too bad it's not as easy to delete what we say as it is to delete a dog that gives you a problem.....


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I didn't tell you to take him to training to trust him again. I told you to have a good working dog trainer evaluate him for proper temperament to determine if you could rehome him. And then asked you questions that, if you had answered, could have helped direct you to trainers in your area that could do so.
> 
> A resource guarding issue over a bone is not a reason to kill a dog. If you don't want to put any more effort into him, then call rescues and see if one is willing to take on the liability. At least then he will get a proper evaluation to determine if it's a nerve/temperament issue or a rules issue.


Yes I understand. I have called many shelters and trainers and I get the same answer. They are either full, or they won’t rehome a dog with a bite history.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> too bad it's not as easy to delete what we say as it is to delete a dog that gives you a problem.....


I agree wholeheartedly. I am really hoping there is someone out there that will take him.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Can't someone here take him? Where are you located?


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Can't someone here take him?


That was my hope Wolfy. That’s why I posted here. The shelters are no help because of his bite history and I don’t want to surrender him to a shelter where he will sit in a cage.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Where are you located? It doesn't sound hopeless for him or even for your family.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Where are you located? It doesn't sound hopeless for him or even for your family.


I’m in MA, about 45 minutes west of Boston. 495 area.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Squared away dog training in cape cape cod. Stetson is a phenomenal trainer that I have worked with.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am opposite coast. Somebody needs to rescue (in the true sense of the word) this dog. Deja's breeder/trainer lives close by me. If you are willing to ship him, I can ask him to take him. He can take on any dog and is straight forward.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Unfortunately German Shepherd Rescue of New England will not take any dog with this history. 

you’re probably better off paying to board and train with a good trainer who might be able to facilitate rehoming to a proper home.

Group classes and doggy daycare are not going to address this.

It’s good that the bite didn’t require medical attention. The dog has some bite inhibition.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, the following is meant to get a clearer picture of the situation and by no means meant to be offensive. We have raised three (human)teenagers. Now they are well functioning adults but when they were teens, they often tried to undermine our authority and made lame excuses or we found out years later what they "did". You probably recognize this. So, from what I learned from you is that the dog only has an issue with your son. Dogs don't single out one person just for the heck of it. They do have a reason, that we might not even understand, for this behavior. I know my dog Deja, sweet and obedient, hates dogs that don't mind their owners and also gets stressed about unruly kids. So I know they can hold grudges. My question to you is, have you sat down with your son and have a serious talk about this, without blaming him; just for you and him trying to understand what happened. Maybe he doesn't even realize what he did, that caused this aggression. The (inhibited) bite was a strong signal to leave the dog alone with a bone. Many dogs will bite in that situation. I have been as a kid when I tried to take a bone from the neighbor dog. Leaning over the crate was stressful to the already stressed dog and he felt cornered, I am sure. I am just trying to get you to step back, look at the facts and go from there. Please do not put him down, based on the family's emotions right now. You may think that I am too invested in this but over 30 years ago, I failed a dog in a similar situation. I didn't know what I know now and it haunts me to this day.


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## Cat Mom Adopts German Boy (Jan 4, 2021)

My 1 year old GSD is an absolute sweetheart and a great dog. But he does not like it when my son hugs him when my dog is laying down. He will give him a small warning growl. So we simply respect his boundaries. (Otherwise he is my sons best pal. They are always together, my son is always making contact with him) And yes if he thinks someone (usually one of my cats 😂) is trying to get his treat or his bone he will give a warning bark to back off. And we simply give him his space. It doesn't concern me because I can't blame him! Now if my son didn't respect his warning and God forbid he got bit my first reaction would never in a million YEARS be to euthanize or give him away! I owe it to my dog to do everything within my power to give him the tools he needs to communicate without resorting to extreme behavior. If that means better training (for us both!) than so be it. There is a level of respect, trust and understanding that needs to come from both human and dog. It sounds to me like a breakdown in communication.

I am curious what your bond and "story" with him is. What has his life been like? What is his daily life like?


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> OP, the following is meant to get a clearer picture of the situation and by no means meant to be offensive. We have raised three (human)teenagers. Now they are well functioning adults but when they were teens, they often tried to undermine our authority and made lame excuses or we found out years later what they "did". You probably recognize this. So, from what I learned from you is that the dog only has an issue with your son. Dogs don't single out one person just for the heck of it. They do have a reason, that we might not even understand, for this behavior. I know my dog Deja, sweet and obedient, hates dogs that don't mind their owners and also gets stressed about unruly kids. So I know they can hold grudges. My question to you is, have you sat down with your son and have a serious talk about this, without blaming him; just for you and him trying to understand what happened. Maybe he doesn't even realize what he did, that caused this aggression. The (inhibited) bite was a strong signal to leave the dog alone with a bone). Many dogs will bite in that situation. I have been as a kid when I tried to take a bone from the neighbor dog. Leaning over the crate was stressful to the dog and he felt cornered, I am sure. I am just trying to get you to step back, look at the facts and go from there. Please do not put him down, based on the family's emotions right now. You may think that I am too invested in this but over 30 years ago, I failed a dog in a similar situation. I didn't know what I know now and it haunts me to this day.


Thanks for this. And I get it and agree. Yes my son and I talked and have established some rules until we can sort this out.. I am going to try my best to find a home for him. I’ll keep calling around to shelters and rescues. Talking to friends and family, etc…


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Niptuman said:


> Thanks for this. And I get it and agree. Yes my son and I talked and have established some rules until we can sort this out.. I am going to try my best to find a home for him. I’ll keep calling around to shelters and rescues. Talking to friends and family, etc…


I am reading what you are writing, and what you are not.
Kids are generally my line in the sand, no dog that will willingly bite a child has a place as a companion animal. Period.
BUT, your son is a teenager, a young man, and teenage boys are notorious for being taunts and teases. I suspect more to this then you maybe know.
I think, based on your responses, that you lack the experience to handle this dog. I think right now you are running on emotion and probably pretty angry. You feel wronged and frustrated that no one is responding the way you would like.
Some trainers in your area have been suggested. Call them explain the situation and ask for help. 
Meanwhile, maybe a friend or family member could take him for a few days to allow you some distance and perspective. 
@David Winners may have some suggestions not mentioned.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I honestly don’t think you should rehome this dog yourself. 

i know a lady who has a GSD who bit her and her son…and some other ppl. Resource guarding. I’ll spare you more details of that story. I honestly don’t think there is a place in the pet population for this dog. She couldn’t bring herself to put him down and decided to try and rehome him. Her best candidate was a teacher who had this delusion that this dog would be great in the classroom with children. I don’t honestly remember how they two of them convinced themselves that this was an ideal match.

people get ideas… they think their romantic idea will work… often it winds up being kicking the can down the road for the next unsuspecting person.

It is my opinion that a qualified professional should evaluate and place the dog if it can be and should be placed.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Excellent points and advice by Thecowboysgirl!

But OP, if you do talk to a professional please try to be a little more forthcoming and honest. Provide all the details upfront. 

Here, it wasn't until post #16 that you mentioned the bone and resource guarding, #25 that you detailed the basic training your dog has had, and not until post #28 that you clarified the age of your son and the extent of the bite injury (which wasn't really a bite, I hope you know!).

I truly hope the dog can find a good home!


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## CEMC (May 2, 2020)

The OP wants out of the relationship and therefore I think the situation has gone far beyond the stage where a trainer can help. It is my opinion that the OP is looking for an excuse to get rid of the dog the easiest way possible and I for one will not help them do it. The OP will ultimately do whatever he/she wants to do but in my opinion the *right thing to do* is find a suitable home for him via a rescue shelter but not to euthanize. I have a strong feeling that this dog has not been adequately handled and does not deserve to be killed.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

CEMC said:


> The OP wants out of the relationship and therefore I think the situation has gone far beyond the stage where a trainer can help. It is my opinion that the OP is looking for an excuse to get rid of the dog the easiest way possible and I for one will not help them do it. The OP will ultimately do whatever he/she wants to do but in my opinion the *right thing to do* is find a suitable home for him via a rescue shelter but not to euthanize. I have a strong feeling that this dog has not been adequately handled and does not deserve to be killed.


Everything has been said already. If you are not willing to help, don't post. No need to start blaming. Keeping it positive will only help the situation and not chase away the OP.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

these are just my thoughts and suggestions:

I think that if you can reach out to a trainer such as the one Jax suggested and have your boy evaluated, if the evaluation goes well, it would put your dog in a better light when you reach out to rescues and sets you up for a better chance of success.

with that said, Medfield Animal Shelter site states that they are accepting surrenders. I think they are in your general vacinity. if You already tried them, I would get the eval and then reach out again. They may be willing to listen to what a pro has to say.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I just want to say, I tried very hard to keep out of this conversation, I did! But at some point, I had to enter it, because people try to placate this stuff. It isn't the dog's fault at all here IMHO. Not that I'm blaming it all on the owner, but largely that's just the freaking truth!

My gut feeling is that there's nothing at all in this dog's temperament that would keep him from being rehomed successfully, provided the people are animal savy! I bet he's just fine 99% of the time (another point the OP neglected to share with us!).

At any rate, sorry if I bruised your feelings. But man up! This dog didn't fo anything wrong, you failed to manage him, and your son, correctly.

That being said, we all make mistakes. Not the end of the world, it's the beginning...


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

CEMC said:


> The OP wants out of the relationship and therefore I think the situation has gone far beyond the stage where a trainer can help. It is my opinion that the OP is looking for an excuse to get rid of the dog the easiest way possible and I for one will not help them do it. The OP will ultimately do whatever he/she wants to do but in my opinion the *right thing to do* is find a suitable home for him via a rescue shelter but not to euthanize. I have a strong feeling that this dog has not been adequately handled and does not deserve to be killed.


Yes that is the goal.. I am doing my best to find the right home for him.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> I just want to say, I tried very hard to keep out of this conversation, I did! But at some point, I had to enter it, because people try to placate this stuff. It isn't the dog's fault at all here IMHO. Not that I'm blaming it all on the owner, but largely that's just the freaking truth!
> 
> My gut feeling is that there's nothing at all in this dog's temperament that would keep him from being rehomed successfully, provided the people are animal savy! I bet he's just fine 99% of the time (another point the OP neglected to share with us!).
> 
> ...


Thanks Tim… I’m hopeful there is someone out there that has the right environment for him.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

CEMC said:


> The OP wants out of the relationship and therefore I think the situation has gone far beyond the stage where a trainer can help. It is my opinion that the OP is looking for an excuse to get rid of the dog the easiest way possible and I for one will not help them do it. The OP will ultimately do whatever he/she wants to do but in my opinion the *right thing to do* is find a suitable home for him via a rescue shelter but not to euthanize. I have a strong feeling that this dog has not been adequately handled and does not deserve to be killed.


Yes exactly… well stated. I am hopeful that a rescue or individual will take him. I will keep searching.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

OP missed a lot of cues and mishandled the dog. Happens all the time.

It's just a matter of trust, which goes both ways. A dog that trusts a person doesn't freak out like that. You either need a trainer to show you how to develop this relationship or someone qualified to evaluate the dog for placement.

This dog bit lots of people, including me. She was fine after she learned that she could trust people and what the rules were.


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

Niptuman said:


> Yes exactly… well stated. I am hopeful that a rescue or individual will take him. I will keep searching.


so did you contact Medfield animal shelter? Did you try to contact the two trainers that were suggested? Will you converse with David and treat this community the way it’s members have treated you? with respect. My opinion, when a new member cherry picks the questions, valuable time is wasted.

and nope could careless if you answer my questions, I just have a point that I’m proving and a strong opinion.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

Heartandsoul said:


> so did you contact Medfield animal shelter? Did you try to contact the two trainers that were suggested? Will you converse with David and treat this community the way it’s members have treated you? with respect. My opinion, when a new member cherry picks the questions, valuable time is wasted.
> 
> and nope could careless if you answer my questions, I just have a point that I’m proving and a strong opinion.


I did leave a message with medfield. But I also don’t want to surrender him to a shelter where he will be stuck in a cage. He deserves better than that. I have been nothing but respectful. I am certain in the right environment with the right trainer he will do great. Let’s hope I can find him a home where someone can work with him and get him the training he needs.


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## Niptuman (Nov 5, 2021)

David Winners said:


> OP missed a lot of cues and mishandled the dog. Happens all the time.
> 
> It's just a matter of trust, which goes both ways. A dog that trusts a person doesn't freak out like that. You either need a trainer to show you how to develop this relationship or someone qualified to evaluate the dog for placement.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I am hopeful we will find him a good home.


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## brittanyS (Dec 11, 2018)

Niptuman said:


> I did leave a message with medfield. But I also don’t want to surrender him to a shelter where he will be stuck in a cage. He deserves better than that.


When I was in Massachusetts (that’s where you are, I think?) we stopped by a shelter that had recently received a shipment of dogs from the Southeast. People had to take a number and wait in line to pick out their dog. I’m not necessarily saying you should go the shelter route, but I just wanted to say he might not be in a shelter long at all. GSDs tend to go fast.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

@Niptuman i see that you’ve edited your original post and have removed euthanasia off the table, but it still does not read in a way to attract potential adopters. nothing positive about him or his personality & temperament aside from the bite incident has been shared.
so i’ll repeat…


Fodder said:


> OP i’ve updated your header to better reflect the current conversation. *Once you’ve had this dog properly evaluated, deemed safe and are ready to provide more info* - Feel free to post in the Non urgent rescue section. There are pinned threads at the top to review the guidelines.


here is an example of a rehoming thread. scroll down to post #14 for full bio


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This dog should not go to a shelter. He runs a high risk of being rehomed and rehomed, abused as a result and end up dead. Shelters in general just adopt out to anyone who wants a certain dog and don't do a good job in matching the dog with the adopter


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## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

I’m just hopping back in since I recomended Medway Shelter. from my experience with them, they seem to be way above what is being described here.

they are very sensative to the effect a shelter life has on animals and do their utmost to minimize it. Right now they have two dogs. One is in a foster(they do have fosters) the other was in a temp foster and is now back in the shelter, but is out walking 5 or so times a day with volunteers and is being rehabbed to increase confidence.

when I was in contact with them late 2020, they were giving Phenomenal veterinary care to the two bonded seniors that I was considering adopting. They refused to separate the two dus to the affect it would have on them. A board member of the shelter organization took the two in as temp fosters. I was going to foster them next but the board member extended the foster time so the two seniors would not be uprooted again. At that point, my help wasn’t needed and I suspended contact.

I know nothing was poorly said about Medway specifically, but I just wanted to clarify what I knew of them and separate them from others. Marlene was the Manager and Jackie was the Assistant Manager. They may still be. they both were wonderful.. just incase anyone else out there is in a situation.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

David Winners said:


> OP missed a lot of cues and mishandled the dog. Happens all the time.
> 
> It's just a matter of trust, which goes both ways. A dog that trusts a person doesn't freak out like that. You either need a trainer to show you how to develop this relationship or someone qualified to evaluate the dog for placement.
> 
> ...


That may be true...but what does it change? Most people will probably miss the same cues.

This post kind of reminds me of a GSD that was in a local shelter here. I inquired about him to see if I could help get him into breed rescue. Because he had been in the shelter a long time. I talked to them. He had a half a dozen bites before they brought him int he first time. They adopted him out, and he was returned within 24 hrs because he bit the new owners. The shelter person I spoke to blamed the new owners for mis handling him and they still had him up for adoption. I don't know how serious the bites were, i didn't ask anything further because the rescue I was volunteering for wouldn't take him. I know of other super sketchy dogs that have come out of this shelter so I just decided not to have anything more to do with the situation or the shelter.

There are plenty of dogs who won't bite a person in the face and draw blood if they try to take the bone they are chewing on, and it's important to remember that.

Heck even my newly adopted adult GSD who was a resource guarder-- was laying in a dog bed chewing on a nyla bone and my step daughter went by and hugged him by surprise while he was in his bed chewing. I mean that's bad (basically bad on me for allowing that to happen). He growled at her, but he did not bite her in the face. And she was well within reach. I did not discipline him for it, but I did begin to manage him much differently and of course educated the kids about how to act around a dog.

Part of our decision to work with him and keep him was the fact that he didn't bite anyone even though he easily could have. 

This whole mentality of people handling dogs wrong and are responsible for being bitten, and all dogs bite etc., doesn't really sit right with me. Because they don't. I can't imagine what you'd have to do to provoke my lab into biting someone. 

Dogs need to be able to live in normal families who aren't dog professionals, too. And they need to do so without biting their families.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That may be true...but what does it change? Most people will probably miss the same cues.
> 
> This post kind of reminds me of a GSD that was in a local shelter here. I inquired about him to see if I could help get him into breed rescue. Because he had been in the shelter a long time. I talked to them. He had a half a dozen bites before they brought him int he first time. They adopted him out, and he was returned within 24 hrs because he bit the new owners. The shelter person I spoke to blamed the new owners for mis handling him and they still had him up for adoption. I don't know how serious the bites were, i didn't ask anything further because the rescue I was volunteering for wouldn't take him. I know of other super sketchy dogs that have come out of this shelter so I just decided not to have anything more to do with the situation or the shelter.
> 
> ...


I have a big problem with this. It drives me absolutely insane. Why should working breeds be bred to be handled by people with no knowledge? Why is the standard that this dog must tolerate everything from a person without retaliation? If I grab you, hug you uninvited, take food off your plate, is the expectation that you should tolerate that without fault? I think a lot times when we look at these things people expect from their dogs things they themselves wouldn’t tolerate. This mentality is why you don’t see Doberman that work like they used to. It’s why the “German shepherds of old” that people love to talk about so much have changed. There’s this expectation that every dog should be easily handled by anyone regardless of skill set or knowledge with minimum effort. A lady here once told to rehomed a young showline female who was a “police dog candidate” for biting too much and was recommended to buy from a backyard breeder who give her a calmer dog who never did anything. I would trust Bear in just about any situation with people you can think, at least to my expectations. That includes being rushed by little kids or having them try to take his food. He wouldn’t have made it in a home like the woman I mentioned. Yet, the expectation is if he couldn’t he should be put down. There is a huge difference between a normal family and a high level trainer. For years I remember being told to ask before you pet dogs, leave them alone while eating, leave them alone while sleeping, and don’t go off running around them or you can get bitten. That didn’t make me a professional. That made me an 8 year old kid.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That may be true...but what does it change? Most people will probably miss the same cues.
> 
> This post kind of reminds me of a GSD that was in a local shelter here. I inquired about him to see if I could help get him into breed rescue. Because he had been in the shelter a long time. I talked to them. He had a half a dozen bites before they brought him int he first time. They adopted him out, and he was returned within 24 hrs because he bit the new owners. The shelter person I spoke to blamed the new owners for mis handling him and they still had him up for adoption. I don't know how serious the bites were, i didn't ask anything further because the rescue I was volunteering for wouldn't take him. I know of other super sketchy dogs that have come out of this shelter so I just decided not to have anything more to do with the situation or the shelter.
> 
> ...


Most people shouldn't own working breeds.

I agree that a stable dog should not attack someone with intent to harm them unless there is provocation. 

I also believe that most "bites" are not really bites meant to do harm. If a GSD bites you and doesn't break the skin, it's not trying to hurt you.

If you are the owner of a breed designed to chase and bite people, it is your responsibility to do your due diligence to ensure that people are safe around your dog. That training and management falls squarely on the owner.

Valor is a fantastic dog that is bomb proof in public. While I believe that he is genetically predisposed to not being aggressive unless provoked and he is a very confident dog, without a lot of training he would be a bull in a China shop. He would definitely play in a manner that the general public would call biting. He loves to tackle, smash, bite, head butt, shoulder check... And he is a pushy dog that you have to keep in check.

I also think that he is what a GSD should be. Anything less than a dog that can fight a grown man doesn't meet the breed standard.

There are plenty of breeds designed to be friendly to everyone and everything. I see no need to force the GSD breed to be a Clumber with pointy ears.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> I also think that he is what a GSD should be. Anything less than a dog that can fight a grown man doesn't meet the breed standard.
> 
> There are plenty of breeds designed to be friendly to everyone and everything. I see no need to force the GSD breed to be a Clumber with pointy ears.


but… this has already been done. 90% of the german shepherds we see now days don’t fit the breed standard, aren’t going to fight grown men and aren’t biting because of stellar genetics. so when the puppy mill dog bites a young family member, in my opinion, that argument is void.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I once saw a client with a Heeler who had bitten. I asked why they chose this breed. Answer: "we love the pointy ears". They should breed Golden Retrievers with pointy ears. Part of the problem is that GSDs are portrayed as these loyal protectors. Add the gorgeous look and voila...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Fodder said:


> but… this has already been done. 90% of the german shepherds we see now days don’t fit the breed standard, aren’t going to fight grown men and aren’t biting because of stellar genetics. so when the puppy mill dog bites a young family member, in my opinion, that argument is void.


But that doesn't excuse the owner of their responsibilities.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Bearshandler said:


> I have a big problem with this. It drives me absolutely insane. Why should working breeds be bred to be handled by people with no knowledge? Why is the standard that this dog must tolerate everything from a person without retaliation? If I grab you, hug you uninvited, take food off your plate, is the expectation that you should tolerate that without fault? I think a lot times when we look at these things people expect from their dogs things they themselves wouldn’t tolerate. This mentality is why you don’t see Doberman that work like they used to. It’s why the “German shepherds of old” that people love to talk about so much have changed. There’s this expectation that every dog should be easily handled by anyone regardless of skill set or knowledge with minimum effort. A lady here once told to rehomed a young showline female who was a “police dog candidate” for biting too much and was recommended to buy from a backyard breeder who give her a calmer dog who never did anything. I would trust Bear in just about any situation with people you can think, at least to my expectations. That includes being rushed by little kids or having them try to take his food. He wouldn’t have made it in a home like the woman I mentioned. Yet, the expectation is if he couldn’t he should be put down. There is a huge difference between a normal family and a high level trainer. For years I remember being told to ask before you pet dogs, leave them alone while eating, leave them alone while sleeping, and don’t go off running around them or you can get bitten. That didn’t make me a professional. That made me an 8 year old kid.


Have they really changed that much? Would the old herder have tolerating his dog biting his kid for something silly that kids do? I am not so sure.
I feel like I read something about this in the GSD word and picture or whatever that book is called. If I can find it I will look it up


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

David Winners said:


> But that doesn't excuse the owner of their responsibilities.


no, it doesn’t at all… but what’s expected, allowed, justified, warranted, etc all shifts. if anything, in some ways, they have more responsibility.

my point being… someone with a clumber spaniel in gsd clothing that’s biting, is more concerning to me than a gsd who is bred to chase and bite, chasing and biting.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Bearshandler said:


> I have a big problem with this. It drives me absolutely insane. Why should working breeds be bred to be handled by people with no knowledge? Why is the standard that this dog must tolerate everything from a person without retaliation? If I grab you, hug you uninvited, take food off your plate, is the expectation that you should tolerate that without fault? I think a lot times when we look at these things people expect from their dogs things they themselves wouldn’t tolerate. This mentality is why you don’t see Doberman that work like they used to. It’s why the “German shepherds of old” that people love to talk about so much have changed. There’s this expectation that every dog should be easily handled by anyone regardless of skill set or knowledge with minimum effort. A lady here once told to rehomed a young showline female who was a “police dog candidate” for biting too much and was recommended to buy from a backyard breeder who give her a calmer dog who never did anything. I would trust Bear in just about any situation with people you can think, at least to my expectations. That includes being rushed by little kids or having them try to take his food. He wouldn’t have made it in a home like the woman I mentioned. Yet, the expectation is if he couldn’t he should be put down. There is a huge difference between a normal family and a high level trainer. For years I remember being told to ask before you pet dogs, leave them alone while eating, leave them alone while sleeping, and don’t go off running around them or you can get bitten. That didn’t make me a professional. That made me an 8 year old kid.


I am not sure you and I disagree quite as much as you think. I think maybe we just have a different definition of what’s acceptable from a working breed in a home?

my girl was pretty old working lines and I think she would have excelled in many types of work. And I think she had the nerve to fight a man like David Winners says. She was also enormously kind to her family and enormously tolerant of children. I don’t think one has to exclude the other?

Can a dog not be a good German shepherd and still be tolerant of kids doing occasional stupid things? My kids were super kind and respectful to the dogs but they occasionally did dumb stuff without thinking like kids do. And a dog should be willing to forgive that.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Have they really changed that much? Would the old herder have tolerating his dog biting his kid for something silly that kids do? I am not so sure.
> I feel like I read something about this in the GSD word and picture or whatever that book is called. If I can find it I will look it up


Were kids allowed to do things around the dogs that would have got them bitten in the first place? Do you let kids go up to random dogs and take things from them? I say random because you have a good idea of how your dog would react. You’re comparing how people who know dogs and train dogs for a living to things people do who have no dog knowledge. I don’t think kids were put in a position to do things that could get them hurt seriously by knowledgeable dog people. I can’t tell you how much a dog has changed from 100 years ago since I wasn’t there. I can tell you that talk of dogs being culled for certain temperament traits is greatly exaggerated by a lot of working dog communities.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One thing that HAS changed in the last few decades, and that I blame for a lot of this - the 'fur parent' mentality! All dogs are expected to be fuzzy toys kids and adults can pet and cuddle safely.

My family wasn't able to have a dog due to allergies, but many of my relatives did. Most of them were farm dogs that had a job, and not all of them were child safe. From a very young age, I was told to never bother a dog when it's eating, and to ask if the dog was safe with being petted. They also taught me about basic dog language - lifting the lips, growling, etc.
I made sure I obeyed my parents if they told me NOT to pet the dog, and don't remember ever being bitten. 
If I HAD been bitten, the first thing they would have said was, "What did you do to provoke it?"

This obviously isn't being taught any more by the majority of parents.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I am not sure you and I disagree quite as much as you think. I think maybe we just have a different definition of what’s acceptable from a working breed in a home?
> 
> my girl was pretty old working lines and I think she would have excelled in many types of work. And I think she had the nerve to fight a man like David Winners says. She was also enormously kind to her family and enormously tolerant of children. I don’t think one has to exclude the other?
> 
> Can a dog not be a good German shepherd and still be tolerant of kids doing occasional stupid things? My kids were super kind and respectful to the dogs but they occasionally did dumb stuff without thinking like kids do. And a dog should be willing to forgive that.


This isn’t kids doing occasional stupid stuff. It’s also not about the dog being forgiving. The dog lives in the moment and reacts in that moment. The problem is you’re asking the dog to be perfect in an imperfect world without guidance. There what happens when you put a dog in a home without the knowledge to handle it that doesn’t want to learn how.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Here’s another way I see it. You wouldn’t want someone to have a gun without knowing about gun safety and how to operate it. You wouldn’t want someone to have a car without knowing how to operate it safely. You wouldn’t want someone to operate a stove without some basic knowledge. Yet a dog, a living, thinking breathing animal, is expected to function perfectly with someone who has no idea what their doing.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> One thing that HAS changed in the last few decades, and that I blame for a lot of this - the 'fur parent' mentality! All dogs are expected to be fuzzy toys kids and adults can pet and cuddle safely.
> 
> My family wasn't able to have a dog due to allergies, but many of my relatives did. Most of them were farm dogs that had a job, and not all of them were child safe. From a very young age, I was told to never bother a dog when it's eating, and to ask if the dog was safe with being petted. They also taught me about basic dog language - lifting the lips, growling, etc.
> I made sure I obeyed my parents if they told me NOT to pet the dog, and don't remember ever being bitten.
> ...


See, I feel like if a dog bit a kid in the “old days” it was more likely to be taken out back and shot. Vs these days people are willing to adopt out dogs that bite people and everything has a sob story or a big reason why.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Bearshandler said:


> Here’s another way I see it. You wouldn’t want someone to have a gun without knowing about gun safety and how to operate it. You wouldn’t want someone to have a car without knowing how to operate it safely. You wouldn’t want someone to operate a stove without some basic knowledge. Yet a dog, a living, thinking breathing animal, is expected to function perfectly with someone who has no idea what their doing.


No but just off the top of my head I don’t think a family pet ought to be as dangerous as a loaded gun, either


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> See, I feel like if a dog bit a kid in the “old days” it was more likely to be taken out back and shot. Vs these days people are willing to adopt out dogs that bite people and everything has a sob story or a big reason why.


Some of my relatives had dogs that WOULD bite if provoked, but they were expected to protect the home and stock, so biting was forgiven, unless the dog did really serious damage. Nowadays, if the dog draws so much as a drop of blood, it's likely to cause a lawsuit and a muzzle order. 🤬


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I am not sure you and I disagree quite as much as you think. I think maybe we just have a different definition of what’s acceptable from a working breed in a home?
> 
> my girl was pretty old working lines and I think she would have excelled in many types of work. And I think she had the nerve to fight a man like David Winners says. She was also enormously kind to her family and enormously tolerant of children. I don’t think one has to exclude the other?
> 
> Can a dog not be a good German shepherd and still be tolerant of kids doing occasional stupid things? My kids were super kind and respectful to the dogs but they occasionally did dumb stuff without thinking like kids do. And a dog should be willing to forgive that.


Absolutely, given that the dog isn't conflicted by poor training, mis handling, kids allowed to torment the dog etc...

My dog is great with kids, even unruly ones.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> See, I feel like if a dog bit a kid in the “old days” it was more likely to be taken out back and shot. Vs these days people are willing to adopt out dogs that bite people and everything has a sob story or a big reason why.


That's true as well. Hard to find the middle ground. In the 80's a GSD bit a toddler in our village. Owners downplayed it so the kid's dad shot the dog. No charges filed.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> See, I feel like if a dog bit a kid in the “old days” it was more likely to be taken out back and shot. Vs these days people are willing to adopt out dogs that bite people and everything has a sob story or a big reason why.


I don’t think so. I’ve got plenty of I told you so or that’s what you get. A dog roaming biting someone was different, but if you got bit messing with a dog that was eating you probably got a whooping after. If you got bit on someone else’s property you were going to be in trouble for being there in the first place.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> No but just off the top of my head I don’t think a family pet ought to be as dangerous as a loaded gun, either


I would tell you a dog is more dangerous than a loaded gun. All of those things you wouldn’t want someone with no knowledge of them or training using. I don’t know why that changes with a dog.


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> See, I feel like if a dog bit a kid in the “old days” it was more likely to be taken out back and shot. Vs these days people are willing to adopt out dogs that bite people and everything has a sob story or a big reason why.


This is pretty much how it went when I was growing up, kids were told not to tease dogs and were told basic warning signs of a dog about to bite. Kids were told to leave an eating dog alone and kids were scolded for teasing dogs and if they made a dog nip but zero tolerance if a dog bit anyone seriously(bloody mess) - dog would be brought out to the back 40 never to return.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Bearshandler said:


> This isn’t kids doing occasional stupid stuff. It’s also not about the dog being forgiving. The dog lives in the moment and reacts in that moment. The problem is you’re asking the dog to be perfect in an imperfect world without guidance. There what happens when you put a dog in a home without the knowledge to handle it that doesn’t want to learn how.


I mean, I don’t agree. I AM talking about kids doing occasional stupid stuff. Kids who were otherwise kind and respectful. And no I don’t expect dogs to be perfect in an imperfect world.

the OP’s kid who was bitten antagonize the dog? I have no idea. Did we figure out the “kid” was actually a teenager?

I have no idea if what I am saying applies to Op because I don’t know enough about it.


Bearshandler said:


> I have a big problem with this. It drives me absolutely insane. Why should working breeds be bred to be handled by people with no knowledge? Why is the standard that this dog must tolerate everything from a person without retaliation? If I grab you, hug you uninvited, take food off your plate, is the expectation that you should tolerate that without fault? I think a lot times when we look at these things people expect from their dogs things they themselves wouldn’t tolerate. This mentality is why you don’t see Doberman that work like they used to. It’s why the “German shepherds of old” that people love to talk about so much have changed. There’s this expectation that every dog should be easily handled by anyone regardless of skill set or knowledge with minimum effort. A lady here once told to rehomed a young showline female who was a “police dog candidate” for biting too much and was recommended to buy from a backyard breeder who give her a calmer dog who never did anything. I would trust Bear in just about any situation with people you can think, at least to my expectations. That includes being rushed by little kids or having them try to take his food. He wouldn’t have made it in a home like the woman I mentioned. Yet, the expectation is if he couldn’t he should be put down. There is a huge difference between a normal family and a high level trainer. For years I remember being told to ask before you pet dogs, leave them alone while eating, leave them alone while sleeping, and don’t go off running around them or you can get bitten. That didn’t make me a professional. That made me an 8 year old kid.


I mean, by your standard here I ought not have been able to “handle” my GSD service dog. She was my second GSD in my life but I was admittedly clueless with the first and he just ran wild on my farm with me.

I was working as a dog walker when I got her but I had no particularly special skills or experience with dogs.

I had private training and probably dozens of group classes with her but all what people on here would probably scoff at… bunny hugger clicker classes.

she did bite the crap out of me playing tug because like I said she was hard and sloppy with her mouth and I didn’t know to make her do better.

I don’t think she would count as being bred to be handled by people with no knowledge. I definitely wasn’t super skilled! She wanted to work for me, she LOvED her job and was so good at it. Learning to train with her and being her partner is what ignited my passionate love of all things dogs. According to some of this stuff I read here I should never have had her?

Not sure I get all the logic here


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Bearshandler said:


> I would tell you a dog is more dangerous than a loaded gun. All of those things you wouldn’t want someone with no knowledge of them or training using. I don’t know why that changes with a dog.


i sure hope none of my dogs would kill somebody from the squeeze of a finger. Not totally getting this logic either


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I mean, by your standard here I ought not have been able to “handle” my GSD service dog. She was my second GSD in my life but I was admittedly clueless with the first and he just ran wild on my farm with me.


What is my standard exactly?


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> i sure hope none of my dogs would kill somebody from the squeeze of a finger. Not totally getting this logic either


A gun is an inanimate tool. A tool that requires input from a person to kill. A gun is a living, breathing, thinking animal. A dog makes decisions on its own. That is what makes it more dangerous than a gun.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> A gun is an inanimate tool. A tool that requires input from a person to kill. A gun is a living, breathing, thinking animal. A dog makes decisions on its own. That is what makes it more dangerous than a gun.


 According to the statistics this means that people are more dangerous than dogs


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> According to the statistics this means that people are more dangerous than dogs


I would say that is also true.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Dogs need to be able to live in normal families who aren't dog professionals, too. And they need to do so without biting their families.


I think David nailed it. Dogs that aren't hindered by poor training, miss handling, or teased or pestered by kids, and that are truly bonded and have a good relationship with their owners typically won't bite them.

My dog is pretty bulletproof where kids are involved. But I don't think she'd view a 14 yr old male as a kid.

Most likely she wouldn't bite. More likely an air snap, first at least. But either way, why allow that to happen in the first place? 




Fodder said:


> I also think it’s important to point out that filing a bite report isn’t the same as registering your dog as a dangerous animal. the point of the report is to collect details about the animal, circumstances surrounding the bite, etc.


I would imagine it varies greatly state by state. Oregon doesn't even require broken skin or blood to label a dog as "potentially dangerous". And once so labeled, it streamlines the liability an owner has for a bite. 

Their standard is menacing, which is defined as a dog lunging, growling, and/or barking in a way that would make a reasonable person afraid for their safety.

To their credit though, it has to occur off the owners property, and excludes on or in any vehicle, and it has to be completely unprovoked.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I had private training and probably dozens of group classes with her but all what people on here would probably scoff at… bunny hugger clicker classes


This takes you out of the "shouldn't own a GSD" group in my opinion.

Not many people do this.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Clicker classes are OK to start a dog with and wean off the treats asap so you don't rely on these. You need to take an honest look at your dog and adjust techniques to keep him in line. I found that clickering teaches a pup very quickly and then you enforce the rules when they hit the knuckle head stage


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Bearshandler said:


> What is my standard exactly?


that a person with no/ minimal skill should not be able to handle a German shepherd. And/or a GSD should be allowed to “retaliate” against unwanted affection or whatever.
I had minimal skill when I started with this working line dog and we learned together and were a great team. I’ve said there are things I wished I had known and done differently. Not like we were perfect.

But we were super happy together and she never bit me in anger for any stupid thing I ever did


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

wolfy dog said:


> Clicker classes are OK to start a dog with and wean off the treats asap so you don't rely on these. You need to take an honest look at your dog and adjust techniques to keep him in line. I found that clickering teaches a pup very quickly and then you enforce the rules when they hit the knuckle head stage


i actually don’t think weaning of food was ever her /our problem.
She needed more firmness and more discipline. I think if she’d have had that she would have been a happier dog. She needed me to be very firm in a big NO about certain things and I was inundated by the “ignore unwanted/bad behavior and shape wanted/good behavior” training mentality.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> that a person with no/ minimal skill should not be able to handle a German shepherd. And/or a GSD should be allowed to “retaliate” against unwanted affection or whatever.
> I had minimal skill when I started with this working line dog and we learned together and were a great team. I’ve said there are things I wished I had known and done differently. Not like we were perfect.
> 
> But we were super happy together and she never bit me in anger for any stupid thing I ever did


That’s not what I said. Not even close. I said the expectation that every dog should be a dog capable of being handled by someone with no knowledge or desire to gain knowledge is ridiculous. I also said that you shouldn’t breed German shepherds just to be handled by those people. I also never said they should be allowed to retaliate. You know a straw man argument is when you invent a stance for your opponents and then argue against that stance instead of what they actually said. Maybe if you stopped looking at this as a debate between us where someone has to win and instead actually read and consider what is actually being said.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am wondering what the OP decided while we are all distracted from the topic.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

OT a bit:
I'm thinking we have a group of people in room A who are wondering why their dog doesn't have enough drive and another in room B trying to figure out how to lower natural impulses.

"Come over here and tug and fetch and play with the fuzzy fox flirt pole but don't chase the cat and don't nip anyone in excitement!"


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

wolfy dog said:


> I am wondering what the OP decided while we are all distracted from the topic.


original post was edited a couple days ago…


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

This thread has run its course…. Impulse control discussion can now be found here.


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