# Opinions and suggestions welcomed



## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Venting -- a situation I've been told of and wish there were something one could do...

Is there any recourse for a buyer who is sent a 'healthy male pup,' (charged full price) who then turns up to have an undescended testicle? Breeder is well known and was recommended but now says it shouldn't matter since this was to be a companion animal?

Obviously this person was taken advantage of and breeder misrepresented puppy.

The buyer is very reasonable and only wants credit against purchase to cover extra surgeries.

Makes me want to chew nails when I know this breeder is being unethical but even clubs etc... can't sanction breeders.

Wish there were a website to post warnings -- Can't put her names in lights on the forum now, can I? I wish!!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

How old is the pup? If the testicle was down when the ownership was transferred then how would be breeder be at fault?


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## George Acevedo (Apr 20, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: zypVenting -- a situation I've been told of and wish there were something one could do...
> 
> Wish there were a website to post warnings -- Can't put her names in lights on the forum now, can I? I wish!!


http://www.gsconsumerreports.org/


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

That's just it... one testicle is not down and the buyer was not told about it. They took puppy for a well check on it's arrival and vet told them and explained possible negative consequences.

Breeder is not responding.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks for the site.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

ripoffreport.com is another well known site.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

What does the contract state upon purchasing the puppy?

Was there any sort of health clause? And, if so, what did the health clause state? (was it just illness as in sickness caused by virus, etc. or did it state "any health issues"?)

A "healthy male puppy" can have several definitions. If the breeder states "healthy male puppy" as being a puppy free of any illness, then the buyer received...."a healthy male puppy." If "healthy male puppy" meant free from any health issues, then they did not receive a "healthy male puppy."

If the puppy was purchased as a "pet" puppy, then chances are there is nothing in the sales agreement that says anything about undescended testicles. If the puppy was purchased as a "show" or "breeding" quality puppy, then the buyer might have a "case" there. 

Also by "breeder not responding," how is the buyer contacting the breeder? phone? e-mail? certified letter? I would explore any and all means of contact as well as review the sales agreement prior to filing any sort of formal complaint.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

My 2.5 year old GSD had a retained testicle. I purchased him as a companion/pet dog with a neuter contract, so he was never intended to be bred. If I purchased a puppy to compete with, or to compete with and later breed, that would be different.
A retained testicle wouldn't restrict the dog from life as a companion, so I am not sure if the puppy's condition would be considered a violation of a health guarantee? It will be interesting to hear what breeders here have to say.
My vet told me to wait a couple of months to see if the other testicle would drop. It never did and when he was neutered at a year old the surgery was fairly extensive (and more expensive) than a routine neuter. That was the only hitch for me. And, although I had other complaints with the breeder of my dog, his retained testicle alone was not something that I felt hindered him from being what I wanted and paid for.
Sheilah


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Whether it's a violation of a health warranty depends on how the health warranty is written.

Cryptorchids happen sometimes. And as others mentioned it has no bearing on the dog's ability to serve as a companion, so nothing wrong with a breeder placing such a pup in a companion home. However, I definitely think it wrong for the breeder to do so without informing the new owner and making sure the new owner was aware of the condition, that it'd be more invasive and expensive to neuter, and was ok with it. The new owner should have found out about this from the breeder ahead of time, not from the vet a few days later.

Of course, that's provided the breeder knew about it. 

It's possible the breeder knew and didn't say, which I would consider unethical. Also possible the breeder didn't know because s/he didn't check, in which case I'd say the breeder was negligent as that's something that should be checked. But also possible the testicle was there when the breeder checked, but not when the vet did. While typically testicles are down and pretty well stay down at this age, it's not uncommon for them to yo-yo up and down. Since the inguinal ring hasn't closed yet at this age, then can be there one minute and gone the next.

Most good breeders, check the testicles on males, and if one is not descended before sending the pup home they discuss it with the owner and make sure the owner is aware. If the testicle doesn't come down and stay down in the next few months, and the inguinal ring closes with the testicle retained, than some form of compensation is usually offered. Depending on the agreement that may come in the form of a partial refund, discount off the purchase price, breeder picking up the difference in cost between a regular neuter and a neuter with a retained testicle, or whatever the breeder and buyer agreed upon. But it should have been disclosed and discussed up front, again provided the breeder knew about it and the testicle didn't pull a disappearing act between the time the owner picked him up and took him to the vet.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I know a lot of people who saw Ringer as a young puppy, including right before he was shipped - friends, breeders, a handler who was hired by the co-owners to evaluate the puppies, one of his co-owners from South Florida, etc. Except for the handler, these were all people I've known and trusted for years. They all agreed, he had two testicles when they saw him.

When Ringer was shipped from Michigan to Florida he had two decended testicles, no quesion about it.

When I got him I never checked. When he had his first health check a week or two later, the vet mentioned that one of his testicles was not down. No one lied to me or was dishonest, it just happened. It may have happed during the trauma of the flight or being left at a kennel in North Florida until I could pick him up or coming to a new home - I'll never know.

He was the only male in the litter this happened to. His co-owners had me take him to a lot of different vets, including a repro vet, and they all agreed the second testicle probably wouldn't come back down. They all said it was hereditary and he should never be bred. 

I waited until he was 24 months old and had him neutered. Yes, the surgery was more expensive, but he was a fantastic dog, my clown, I never regretted having him, I still cry when I think of him - he lived until a month before his 13th birthday. 

Sometimes stuff happens, you can't blame the breeders for everything.

He was a gift from his co-owners to me, I knew I was getting him before he was conceived, so no money was involved. Even if money had been involved, the most I would have expected to have gotten back would have been the difference between a show/breeding quaility dog and a pet.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

As Chris says, testicles can yo-yo. If they are doing this, the shy one can be "tacked" to keep it in the sac until the ring closes. I know of a litter with 4 males, VET CHECKED at 7 weeks (I helped the breeder take them to the vet and was handing off pups to the vet!), who had both and a month later there were 2 monorchids. 

IF the pup was definitely a monorchid, the breeder knew this, and she did not inform the buyers, then I would consider it unethical. But none of us know if the testicle was down and went up, was playing yo-yo OR if the breeder knew for sure it was up.

Sometimes a vet will give TOO much info or advice that HE ethically should not give!

I have no clue as to who the sire, breeder, vet etc are - so this is totally from a philosophical standpoint!

Lee

PS One pup was a coated male - I was handling him the day he was sold (and I would NEVER have sold the pup to the buyer!!!) - he had both. A year later, the buyer called the breeder complaining he had only one testicle and he could not use him for breeding - DUH - Limited registration? Coat? Contract!? Point being - he was sold as pet quality to begin with on limited wtih contract stating same. Even though he had 2 testicles at time of sale. Buyers OFTEN DO NOT HEAR EVERYTHING!


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks for all the replies. I know the buyer in question is reading the thread and will, undoubtedly learn from your information.

My understanding is the breeder probably knew and didn't divulge.. While telling them they could buy a coated female, but she would not be able to be shown, then suggested the male (full price) as preferable, leading them to believe he was 1st quality.

They've been very reasonable, only hoping to recoup a bit. Breeder was quite responsive until the $$ transferred and now they're having a hard time getting in touch.

I emailed the breeder as as well since I've a female that is pictured on her website. She did not respond, but did, at my request remove my dog's photo.

I'm hoping she will do the right thing by these folks but I've heard other disturbing accounts so I have to wonder.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

hmmmmmmmmmmm - with some thinking - I will go out on a limb here and say that - after concluding who your friend is - I am gonna say - yea, the breeder sent him a monorchid knowingly....

Lee


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi All,

We are the buyers of this pup and I do appreciate the informed opinions available on this forum. I will completely abandon all of my pride and answer the questions raised to the best of my ability. 

Numerous discussions took place between me, my husband and the breeder. Our first contact with the breeder was via a web request we initiated. The reply was as follows (edited to comply with board policy)

_I currently do have a male and a female available.

The male pup is out of: NAME1, Sch. 1 a daughter to my handsome stud dog, NAME2, Sch. 3...the pup looks very much like NAME2 deep red and black, dark eye color, very outgoing, happy puppy.
The Sire: NAME3 Sch. 3 a very handsome male.

Price: $X,xxx.xx includes shipping to Fla. and crate which you keep.
or
I have a female his littermate...she will have a "plush" coat, a little thicker than they like to see in the show ring.
price: $X,xxx.xx - $1,000 includes shipping

photos to follow...please advise...
Regards
Breeder Name_

We ASSUMED (that pride thing kicking in again) that the male was faultless because a fault would have been noted and disclosed to us as was the plush coated puppy. As a breeder how insulted would you be if we, as buyers, asked something to the effect of "Does this male pup have both testicles descended?" or "Is the bite overshot or undershot?"? First of all we did not think we would have had to question a breeder of this caliber and question every characteristic that is an obvious fault. The excellent pedigrees stated as a prelude to the description of the pups were also an indication that the male was offered to us as faultless. Wasn't stated otherwise as the plush was. 

Companion animal or not, why was a statement made on the plush "not what is liked to be seen in the show ring"? Wouldn't you ASSUME that the male was what would be liked in the show ring because it was not mentioned otherwise and the plush was discounted?

Believe it or not there is no written contract of any kind. YES, we did just fall off the GSD Turnip Truck. We were told we had 3 business days to have him examined and report any life threatening conditions upon which we would be offered a pup in exchange. 

I emailed her asking her opinion on the testicle. She emailed that she had never neutered any of her dogs and to follow the advice of the vet. My husband spoke with her and she kept steering the conversation back to "What does it matter for a companion family pet"? Total snow job with no admittance or denial of knowledge of the condition. There were no nasty words or demands by us. It was honest concern for the health of the animal and an opportunity for her to do the right thing and stand behind her breeding with two attempts by us to let her honorably admit a mistake and own it.

The third attempt at communicating with her about this was a little elevated in tone by me. 

_BreederName,

Husband and I continue to hope that the missing testicle on this pup will find its’ way into the proper position. We feel that you represented this dog as without fault, as you offered us a female with a plush coat for less money (and a mention that it is not ideal for the show ring) and did not mention that this one had an undescended testicle. Is a missing testicle ideal for the show ring? Did you not think the issue of the testicle was something that should have been left up to us to decide if we wanted this dog? We thought we paid for the best, with no faults. 

Our understanding is that this is not only a fault in the breeding but a medical issue that incurs additional costs to have it located and removed. There is also a risk of damage to other internal organs in the procedure. Furthermore, even a male that is to be neutered needs to keep the testicles until 2 years of age so that he can properly develop the attributes that make him male. The effect of this is that we will have to subject this animal to two neuter operations - one to find the testicle after about 14 weeks to prevent health problems and the second after 2 years of age if we desire to neuter him. Breeding him is simply out of the question as this is a genetic issue. We never had the choice because you did not inform us of the condition and we believe for the price we paid it would certainly have been an option with his good breeding. 

We are not unreasonable people by any means, BreederName. We were recommended to you by a previous customer and put our trust in you to breed anatomically correct animals and to make a good match for us. We were very honest about the other dog we were going to get locally and you were aware that we were in a bad situation with that breeder, but you went ahead and sold us a dog you knew had this fault. We would certainly appreciate an attempt by you to make this right as we had every hope of keeping you informed of the development of this pup you bred throughout his life. We expect to be very proud of the way he looks and would love nothing more than to wholeheartedly recommend you as his breeder to others. 
Sincerely,
Me & Husband
_

There has been no response. We had him in for round two (which now I am suspicious round one was ever given) of shots at which time we discovered another issue I felt she should know about so I informed her of this.

_BreederName,

As a follow up to my previous email yesterday, I would also like to let you know that he was in for his 2nd set of shots today and had an over the top infection of Coccidiosis. He is being treated at this time. 

We are awaiting your response.

Sincerely,
My Name_

Her email must be broken because we haven't heard anything from her. The only paperwork we received on the top of the crate was a statement with the Sire and Dam, this pups given name and the list of vaccines given. No AKC numbers for any of them. Is there supposed be something from AKC for us to fill out and submit? She said she would handle all the registration. 

Other than a really cute puppy with one testicle and a bad case of the runs what do we really have?

So at this point we were obviously (gasp) new to buying a puppy. We were obviously naive as to how easy it is for two otherwise intelligent adults can be taken advantage of in a quest for a well bred GSD. I am sure it is really embarrasing to the people who recommended this breeder and gives ethical breeders such as yourselves a bad reputation. I would think that with the world becoming such a small place a reputation is very important for the success of your programs. 

Again, our sincere appreciation to this board for your insights.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Couple of questions.

1. In order to be shipped, the puppy needed to be checked by a vet. Does the vet record state a missing? That should have been shipped with the puppy. If not, request it. Testicles can go up and down on some puppies. What if the vet states that both were down at time of vet check? 

2. What does your contract state in regards to show or companion and what is covered.

3. The litter would have a registration #. If the breeder is handling the registration, the individual puppies would not have it yet. They should be able to do it on line with AKC and send directly to you.


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## CMorton (Oct 28, 2000)

I feel sorry for your situation and understand your frustration, esp if you feel as if you have been misled. I do not know anybody involved but felt the need to respond re: AKC reg.

I never understand why pups go without their registration application. Nowaday's you can register a litter online (with AKC anyway) and I normally do that pretty early, and providing no complications you get the individual registration applications in short time.
My current litter is now 7 1/2 weeks and I am just now registering the litter, but I am keeping both, so it doesn't hold anything up for anybody.

Coccidia can be a pain in the butt to get rid of esp since they are finding that the parasite is starting to become resistant to the typical treatment of Albon. I've never had that in any of my puppies but work as a veterinary technician and see it fairly commonly, depending on where the pups come from.

If the breeder knew prior about the undescended testicle then you should have been presented with that information. I mention testicles to pup buyers whether they care to hear about them or not , b/c it does make a difference in surgical recovery and expense.

I do hope you get things straightened out, and give your pup a hug for me


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Remembering the threads prior to the pup arriving - I think you did pay show quality price. The missing testicle puts the pup in pet/companion category...unfortunately, I seem to remember some post saying you got no written contract??? And yes, the registrations are easily done online - but I always have mine before 8 weeks - it is easy and there is no excuse for not having one - hopefully it is being sent by mail rather than attached to the crate - I would not attach one to a crate!!

Testicles do yo-yo - a board member here bought a pup that would have been pick male from Drache Feld a couple of years ago,but for a testicle up - did NOT pay show quality price - and it came down at 5 months or so. 

hmmm - if you wired money for pup - check with bank regarding regulations for accepting money fraudulently....
Lee


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

With the registration, if the breeder was having the buyer do and pay for the individual registration themsleves, then the paperwork would have been included with the puppy. 

Litter registrations are usually done well before 8 weeks - that is normal. It is the individual registrations that have not been done.

We do ours online - the price of the AKC registration for the puppy is part of the price of the puppy. We talk to the buyer and get the feedback and the vet visit documentation within 48 hours. Once all clear, then I do registration online, AKC sends a confirmation email to the buyer and the registration is sent directly to the new owner.

I would have hoped that the breeder would have paid for the meds for the coccidia. It does happen, but if the breeder does not automatically dose Albon as a preventative, the pups could get it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Just a note on Coccida-as an FYI-there is a new, non-sulpha (can do stuff to the eyes, etc) off label treatment for it: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_coccidia.html
Brand name is Marquis. I am using it for puppies now-my vet office is small and large animal. Shelters also use it because they can use the large quantities. Just a little







information! Not studied on pregnant animals.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Breeder's email isn't broken, she's just not responding. I know because she removed my pups photo from website (upon my request) but didn't reply to my concern over the sale of this puppy...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: FlaBeachBumThere has been no response. We had him in for round two (which now I am suspicious round one was ever given) of shots at which time we discovered another issue I felt she should know about so I informed her of this.


Was there no proof of the vaccines? Each time I got a puppy there was a little sticker next to the vaccine that I presume comes off the bottle. Also, was this puppy shipped? If so, there would have to be a health statement from a vet on the crate as well. Or at least I think so, I've had a puppy shipped from Oregon and from Connecticut, and it was required both times, but maybe state laws vary. If I had any concerns I could have contacted the vet that examined the puppy.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There should be proof of vaccinations. If done by a vet, there should be documentation from the vet for this. If done by the breeder, as is quite normal, it is common practice to peel the label off the vial and attach it to the health record as documentation of what was given. The label will include the important information about what was given, brand, lot number, etc...

As for a vet health cert to fly, that is an FAA (federal) regulation. So it doesn't matter what state pup is shipping from, to or through.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't know about where the dog came from, but in Florida it is illegal to even offer a dog for sale without a health cert. which has a immunization record, as well as the records regarding fecal and other vet notations done at the time of the certification. 

Although, the health cert only warrants, if you look at where the certifying vet signs, against contagious or infectious diseases and parasites.


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

Great information, and I thank you.

I will attempt to contact her again regarding a vet paper or the lot numbers for the vaccines. The paper she sent had was her form that she hand wrote the vaccines given and the date. No stickers. Even if he didn't get what he was supposed to have gotten, will the booster shots I am giving him provide protection?

I'm worried now I am trying to contact her and no response, so now what happens with no AKC papers?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

The dog was shipped from out of state, not from within Florida.

IMO, while truly good breeders strive to prevent problems it's both important (& telling!) how they handle those that do arise. This pup's breeder has an opportunity to do right by the pup's buyer. I'll be interested to see if s/he does so. 

Meredith, you've remained civil throughout your communications with the breeder. Hopefully she hasn't responded simply b/c she is temporarily unavailable. I hope she demonstrates the level of professionalism you (& your pup) are entitled to. 

IF this is the only problem your pup has, unfair though it might be if the breeder doesn't make it right with you, your pup will still share many happy years with you. 

IF the neutering cost is through the roof expensive, can you travel to have it done where it's more reasonable? Several people posted what they paid for this vs what a regular castration cost & the difference b/w different areas (or vets) was H*U*G*E.

Have you tried calling her? (Sorry if I missed that you did)


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: FlaBeachBumGreat information, and I thank you.
> 
> I will attempt to contact her again regarding a vet paper or the lot numbers for the vaccines. The paper she sent had was her form that she hand wrote the vaccines given and the date. No stickers. Even if he didn't get what he was supposed to have gotten, will the booster shots I am giving him provide protection?


I'm going to give the breeder the benefit of the doubt and say that it's unlikely she'd send off a pup without vaccinations. 

Your pup will be fine with the shots he's getting--it's a set of 2 to 4 for puppies anyway.


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

I haven't called her since my husband spoke with her that time and it sounded like she was really selling the fact that we would neuter him anyway. 

I followed up with the email I cut and pasted above. I am just so disappointed more than anything. This is a human problem, not an animal one. 

Of course, if we wind up keeping this puppy, he is family. Really, I just wanted a fair shake at good breeding, I wouldn't have cared less about the one testicle if I was told about it and given the choice and price differential. 

Coincidentally, we are on the road right now to drop off our daughter at camp and it is near the breeder's location. I am thinking about going to see her and introducing myself in person and see what we can work out. I really want this to be amicable and want a fair shake and give her the opportunity to do the right thing. 

Again, you guys are awesome, I will keep you posted on developments.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I'm so sorry this has happened!

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around why the breeder would sell a pup without a contract, that blows my mind!


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: FlaBeachBumI'm worried now I am trying to contact her and no response, so now what happens with no AKC papers?


The only reason you NEED AKC papers is if you are going to breed a dog and register the offspring with the AKC or if you want to compete in Conformation.

Any other AKC sport can be done with an ILP number:

http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

Thank you, and that is helpful, however, I paid for a pure bred no fault pup. I would think for the price I did pay I would have the right to breed him if I chose to. 

Again, we were not given the choice.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Consider calling her yourself unless you find it impossible to br firm & (appropriately) assertive. It's possible she'll work better with you than your husband. In your call you could suggest stopping by to meet with her personally to both resolve this & see her dogs 'in the fur'.

Yes, it's disappointing. IF she persists in quibbling over this it will most likely cost her future puppy buyers...yours & potential recommendations from you & others reading this.


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

She is not quibbling. She is refusing to communicate. And with all of the above do we really have to do the dance of who (my husband or myself) speaks to her? 

We have been professional. She has not as of this date.

I will not be responding any further until I have definitive information regarding an outcome. Again, I do not think it is fair to blast any breeder, and I still hope I can post soon that this has been handled in an amicable and ethical manner by the breeder.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quote:I would think for the price I did pay I would have the right to breed him if I chose to.


Au contraire! Good breeders often insist on controlling the breeding rights on the pups they sell, even those that are (potentially) 'show/breeding' quality. At this age it's impossible to be certain what your pup's temperament, health or conformation will be at maturity. Many breeders insist the dogs be titled before being bred. Most will insist they at least receive passing OFAs. Apart from the dog, many people aren't well suited to the rigors & demands of breeding. These people can easily wind up overwhelmed & unable to do right by the pups. 

Note that male dogs used to breed *are* different than intact males who have never been bred. They're more inclined to escape & roam. Those who have never been bred are (IMO) over all easier, especially around intact females.


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

Further evidence of a scam on me. No contract? Missing a testicle? Really? You want to come here and talk about a "Good" breeder. Do not get me going. 

Do not speak "Au Contraire!" to me. Did you just jump in here to stir some crap?

I am well able to speak for myself and you have frankly, pissed me off.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: FlaBeachBumDo not speak "Au Contraire!" to me. Did you just jump in here to stir some crap?
> 
> I am well able to speak for myself and you have frankly, pissed me off.


 FlaBeachBum, this is a public forum and YOU 'jumped in' here for advice. After your response I start thinking that we may not hear the full story about the breeder and your situation here.

FYI, members of this forum do not favor BYB, even the potential ones.


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

Really?


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

I do believe that the breeder said the reason I could not see the Dam of my pup was because she was currently in Washington State.


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## FlaBeachBum (Jun 1, 2009)

This is starting to look like organized fraud, wire fraud and the like. 

I will be glad to spend resources in shutting it down. 

It is just not healthy for the breed. 

I will be seeing the breeder in court.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Quoteo not speak "Au Contraire!" to me. Did you just jump in here to stir some crap?


Calm down, please. Honestly, my intention was to inform you, not to offend you. FTR, I don't breed, I never have & I'd number myself among those that lack the time, resources & background to breed properly.



> Quote:I am well able to speak for myself and you have frankly, pissed me off.


*shrug*I piss a lot of people off. There are times I even give a flying flip. This is one of them (tho' it's an admittedly small flying flip) b/c I hope to see you work constructively in your own interests regarding this. Losing your cool & going all mad&bad won't help your case whether in or out of court. Again...calm down, please.



> Quote:I do believe that the breeder said the reason I could not see the Dam of my pup was because she was currently in Washington State.


Surely you're not implying that Oksana is in any way involved with your situation. Please read further on this board & others about what constitutes good breeding.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Oksana, I suspect this breeder isn't doing right by Meredith & her husband. Undoubtedly it's a stressful & difficult time for them, especially with the pup sick. IF Meredith reads further & thinks on it a bit I hope she'll realize I'm not trying to stir up anything. If not, then there's yet another that doesn't like me...sob*sob&boohoo.

(FTR, I never *try* to stir up anything. On those rare occasions I want to start something, I choose an appropriate board & I invariably succeed)


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Hmm, I've never heard any problems from that breeder... I would like to know what happens.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

This thread has turned nasty and will now be shut down. If people want to know the outcome of the OP's situation they will have to contact her in PM.

Thank you,

Admin


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