# Help! All I am to them is a treat dispenser.



## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

I have been working with Rogue and Thor daily for about a month now. If I have treats in hand...they do exactly what I say when I say it. However, if they know I dont have treats...they walk away from me!! Like, completely ignore me.It makes me so furious at them, I cant take it. 
I obviously did something wrong along the way...NOW HOW DO I FIX THIS???
They KNOW a lot of commands flawlessly...now its just getting them to do it when I dont have treats in front of them.  (so lost and upset)


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

When you reward, treat and throw a party! Make a big deal - get down to their level and really get into their face with a party. Whoo Hoo! 

Remember when they were puppies, and when you wanted them to come to you (knowing they didn't know any commands) you'd squat down and say, "Puppy! Puppy! Puppy! Puppy!" and they'd get all excited and come running for you! They like the party you threw. 

The trick is knowing what really turns them on. What really gets them excited. You can treat often, but add in that extra "Whoo Hoo!"


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

should i cut treats out all together? seems like theyre taking advantage of me.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

marinehoney said:


> should i cut treats out all together? seems like theyre taking advantage of me.


No, I wouldn't. They aren't taking advantage of you, after all you taught them the behavior. Sadly, it's true. They are doing exactly what you've taught them. 

Try to have treats on your all the time. I have a large spice bottle that I put little chunks of hot dogs in. They carry well in my pocket. When I'm outside or even just playing with the dogs, I'll treat them every so often. I might say, "Here!" and the dogs will come flying. I'll give them all a TINY piece of hot dog, saying, "What good boys! Good boys!" and give them a scratch on the head. With my puppy I'll give a quick full body rub, that drives him nuts. 

Next I might be walking along and say "here" again. All the dogs will come running and I'll use the same praise as I did with the with the first request, but leave out a treat. They all get turned on and take off again. 

Never give a command that you can't reinforce. If you want your pup to come to you and sit, you need to be able to MAKE him if he doesn't. Put him on a long lead and let him run. Set him up to succeed. Make sure he can't fail.


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

Are you doing marker training with them? Are you rewarding or bribing them? Are they ignoring you at a higher distraction level or just simply because you don't have a reward? Have you done engagement work with them? 

In the early stages of marker training, I always reward my dogs for every single command. Over time (way later down the road), the rewards may become more sporadic, and I may do several commands before rewarding them. In the early stages of training, I don't give them commands if I don't have rewards, that's just me. The more a dog ignores a command, the more optional a command becomes. 

I personally will use corrections during training, but that's again way way later down the road, during the proofing stage. All behaviors/commands are taught with motivational training.

Oh, and when I marker train them, the treats don't always come out of my treat bag (which is on my back), they sometimes come from my pocket, or a bag on a counter. I usually don't have them in my hands.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

San said:


> Are you doing marker training with them? Are you rewarding or bribing them? Are they ignoring you at a higher distraction level or just simply because you don't have a reward? Have you done engagement work with them?
> 
> In the early stages of marker training, I always reward my dogs for every single command. Over time (way later down the road), the rewards may become more sporadic, and I may do several commands before rewarding them. In the early stages of training, I don't give them commands if I don't have rewards, that's just me. The more a dog ignores a command, the more optional a command becomes.
> 
> ...


 I do clicker training with them. A lot of times I need to bribe them to get them to do the command. Like I said, if they dont see a treat, they wont even acknowledge me. They ignore me in a silent room by themselves if I dont have a treat, it has nothing to do with distractions. And I do not know what engagement training is.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I found that if you are training with treats, you have to eventually dwindle that down. So for every 5 commands they might 3 treats, but they don't know when they are getting that treat...so the reward here for them, okay I might get a treat if I do the command. *You can pretend you have a treat in your hand too, or just have the treat in your hand where they see it and simply don't give it to them for another two commands*. This way they really don't know if there getting a reward or not..


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

llombardo said:


> I found that if you are training with treats, you have to eventually dwindle that down. So for every 5 commands they might 3 treats, but they don't know when they are getting that treat...so the reward here for them, okay I might get a treat if I do the command. *You can pretend you have a treat in your hand too, or just have the treat in your hand where they see it and simply don't give it to them for another two commands*. This way they really don't know if there getting a reward or not..


 
this is a great idea. i will try it. its very unrealistic for me to have treats on me 24/7. any tips on that?


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

I have a few examples of Minna _ignoring_ me and how I fixed those issues.

1 - coming inside when called (from the backyard).
Minna always wanted to stay outside and play and run around and be a lunatic. So I put a box of bite-sized treats near the backdoor, but continued to act as though it were a normal day. I called her, she took her sweet time and refused to come inside when I wanted...I waited her out -- I refuse to bribe my two with treats. I waited and eventually she decided to come inside so I gave her a treat like it was no big deal, said 'good dog' and then went about my business. Now the next time she went out, I called and again just waited and she came inside a little faster (it did help that she saw Bacca come inside and get a treat) and she got a treat, a pat on the head and a 'good dog'. As of today, I can open the door, whistle for her (or call) and she comes right away. I phased the treats out once she was reliable with coming when *I *wanted her to. I still usually give her a treat once a day (sometimes once every few days), but otherwise she comes when called and I have no issues with her ignoring or not wanting to come in.

2 - listening to commands when no treats are in-hand
Minna is sometimes bad about it, she wants incentive to do what I have asked. However, I refuse to give her a treat everytime I ask her to do something. I always gave her a command when she was within arm-distance and if she didn't listen I would grab her scruff (not rudely or tightly...just so she couldn't walk away) and tell her again and when she would listen I would do the normal "praise, find a treat" -- so she got the point (I figure her thoughts were something like -- "OH, even if I don't see a treat I might still get one!, okay, cool!"). Now she's at a point where I don't need a treat and I don't need to ask more then one time.

3 - clicker training makes things easy...so maybe go back to the basics, work with one dog at a time and work on their focus on *you. *-- and make it fun, make yourself appear fun. Do training even when it's not a designated "session". Even when I'm outside, if Minna wants me to throw a stick or kick a ball she has to do something first.


I wouldn't eliminate treats -- just get creative and make yourself more fun. Minna and Bacca listen to me because I don't allow them _not_ to listen. I set them up to succeed and I learn what I need to alter about my training or my way of telling them to do something in order to get them to listen.

I would suggest (just as someone else did) that you carry treats on you all the time -- just keep a few in your pocket...then you can randomly give treats when they listen, to reinforce them listening to you.

Hopefully some of this helps...good luck.
Sorry it's so long, thought some examples might help so you could see how someone else dealt with the not listening issue.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Just try to remember to always reward good behavior. Even if it's a scratch on the head and a "good girl". It helps develope a working relationship and keep one already developed, strong.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

marinehoney said:


> this is a great idea. i will try it. its very unrealistic for me to have treats on me 24/7. any tips on that?


Especially when in the training process its good to carry treats wherever you are....people laugh at me, I have them in my pocket at work, in my car, by the door, in every jacket that I grab, etc. As long as the dogs do not know when that treat is coming you should be okay, praising the dog is good too..wait until you see the look on their faces when they think they are getting a treat and you just tell them good dog and walk away


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## Marnie (Oct 11, 2011)

I think they get really bored with the old sit, down stay, etc. What I do is show the dog a piece of hotdog or cheese. Then I hold it between my front teeth and let the dog see it. That gets them to focus on your face as they work. We do three or four behaviors and then I spit the treat at them (they either learn to catch it or scramble for it.) They know you have the treat but they never know when it will come flying at them. It keeps them focused and willing to work. You can work up to longer periods between treats but always let them know you have the prize handy. 

If your dog likes to play tug you can substitute a rope or towel for a treat. Play tug for a few minutes then drape the rope over your shoulder where the dog can see it. Do a few commands and then break for a short game of tug.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Nothing in life is free.

They need to respect you more.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If they see a treat in your hand every time you're training them, they will expect that to be part of the picture - treat = compliance, so you should have faded out the sight of treats earlier. Have them somewhere on your person where the dogs can't see them, or somewhere nearby that you have to go get one from. 

Also, you don't want to jump from rewarding every single repetition of a behavior straight to never rewarding at all. The interim stage would be a random reinforcement schedule - think about a slot machine, you never know what the reward will be or when you'll get it, which is how people end up addicted to gambling! Always pair rewards with happy praise, which can continue as you phase out the food rewards. 

Use real life rewards too - NILIF, as has been suggested: do what I want, and you get what you want.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

you could always try and find a seamstress to sew a pocket on your skin.


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## Gracie's My Girl (May 27, 2011)

At this point, it is all about weaning them off treats. Instead of giving them a treat every time, give a treat every other time. I wouldn't completely stop using the treats...I would just use them less and less. 

I am in the process of doing this with my dog and it is working well.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Training needs to be kept fun. The dogs need to enjoy it. If treating helps keep the dogs engaged, then treat. If doing the foxtrot when they respond correctly to your command, then foxtrot. If you don't want to treat, find the correct buttons on your dog that creates that same reward feeling. 

It's when we start nagging all the time at our dogs that they begin to ignore us.

NILF is a great training tool that helps remind US to reward good behavior. It's too easy to become lazy and forget. Like when I sit down for dinner at the table and my dogs go into the living room and lay down. I just expect it and forget to tell them how wonderful they are for not begging. But stick a nose in my plate, I'm going to certainly correct!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Gracie's My Girl said:


> At this point, it is all about weaning them off treats. Instead of giving them a treat every time, give a treat every other time. I wouldn't completely stop using the treats...I would just use them less and less.


To do it properly isn't quite that simple. The general rule is that the newer and/or more difficult the task, the higher the rate of reinforcement. Simple stuff that your dog has been doing easily for a long time in a low distraction environment would need a much lower rate of reinforcement under those circumstances. 

For example, sitting on cue is easier than heeling for a few steps at a stretch, but sitting on cue around the house is easier than sitting on cue at the park or the vet's office. Attention at home is easier than attention outdoors with another dog across the street. 

With anything, you would begin to reward randomly and then start to phase out food rewards (keep up the praise) once the behavior is solid. But if you increase the difficultly, increase the rate of reinforcement at first too, until the behavior is generalized and solid under a variety of circumstances. 

And even though a sit at home may never need a treat reward anymore, you may still be rewarding frequently when working on heel, so it shouldn't be an "all or nothing" thing. Like Lillie said, rewards can be anything and should be meaningful for your dog, so figure out what floats their boat and use that.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

I dont want to move on with training until they both know sit, down, touch, look, bleiben (come), and know them down pat and do them every single time. 
Today I put treats in my hoodie pocket and rewarded them every 3 times they complied. that worked a few times and then Thor just walked away and was done...
later on when we were outside I would try to get them to come to me instead of racing along the fence with the neighbor's dogs. thor would only come if i was waving a treat in the air. I dont want to bribe him. maybe i need to get him on a long lead first. 
I like the idea of spitting treats at them, thats funny.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

are you working them separately or together? Might be better to work separately as well, and I agree with mixing it up, don't deny them the treats, but don't treat for every single thing. Mixing it up they won't know when it's coming..

Something I would try as well, is work on only one command at a time, even if it's for a couple minutes,,if you say sit, and they don't, turn around and walk away, no treat. Go back in a few and try it again, 

I also did alot of what they call, free shaping,,say if thor just goes and lays down, CLICK for it, "GOOD DOWN" and toss him a treat..he'll probably be like "what the heck was THAT about?" in the beginning,,but when they just "do" something without me asking, like a sit or a down, I usually reward for that behavior (as puppies we're talking but you'r bascially working on young dogs so would apply as well).

Anyhow, good luck, and yeah I used to spit treats, just make sure it's something YOU would eat LOL


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

JakodaCD OA said:


> are you working them separately or together? Might be better to work separately as well, and I agree with mixing it up, don't deny them the treats, but don't treat for every single thing. Mixing it up they won't know when it's coming..
> 
> Something I would try as well, is work on only one command at a time, even if it's for a couple minutes,,if you say sit, and they don't, turn around and walk away, no treat. Go back in a few and try it again,
> 
> ...


I try to work with them together as much as i can. However, they both get 30 minute sessions of alone time a day for training (and I was treating every time) and Thor gets an entire hour on saturday of one on one training. When I am working with them together it can get very frustrating but its not a training session when I am doing it, its just telling them to do something and rewarding as I am cooking dinner or sitting on the couch or calling them in from the backyard. I do 10-15 minutes a night with both of them and those are dedicated training sessions with treats in hand. They get jealous of eachother because Rogue will do something and Thor wont so she will get treated and he wont and he gets mad...oh well. I like free shaping and do it as much as i can more with pets and praise when they go lay in their beds or ignore my sons food and other great behaviors. 
I like the walking away when they dont do it. I get naggy with thor. if he doesnt want to sit, he wont. and I just yell sit at him and press his butt and make him do it..walking away would probably yield better results especially after he knows I am not going to treat him every time.


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## ~Saphira~ (Apr 25, 2012)

Here are a few things I would suggest.

1) Have you done clicker eye contact? That is a good way to get a dog to see that paying attention to YOU = treat, not paying attention to the Treat=treat. I can post some videos if you want : )

2) Like everyone else said, fade out the treats. But don't have no reward, make a big deal out of it in other ways, scratch them behind the ears, throw them a toy etc. 

3) You can teach multiple things at once, so it doesn't get too boring. 

4) Spend lots of time with them other than training, so they'll enjoy your company, not just your treats.

5) When you're training, you could always keep a treat in your hand, but don't give it to them every time. That will keep their attention on you, but also show them that not just being 'good' will get them a treat, but being 'extra good' They might make more of an effort to please you, and once they start doing that, you can start keeping the treats out of sight and fading them out more. 

I hope that was of some service to you : ) Have you watched the Kikopup or the Tab289 videos?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

marinehoney said:


> I try to work with them together as much as i can. However, they both get 30 minute sessions of alone time a day for training (and I was treating every time) and Thor gets an entire hour on saturday of one on one training. When I am working with them together it can get very frustrating but its not a training session when I am doing it, its just telling them to do something and rewarding as I am cooking dinner or sitting on the couch or calling them in from the backyard. I do 10-15 minutes a night with both of them and those are dedicated training sessions with treats in hand. They get jealous of eachother because Rogue will do something and Thor wont so she will get treated and he wont and he gets mad...oh well. I like free shaping and do it as much as i can more with pets and praise when they go lay in their beds or ignore my sons food and other great behaviors.


Sounds like too much training time all at once. Maybe split the training time into a few short, to ten minutes sessions. They could very well be bored. Keep it exciting for a few minutes several times a day.
Just a thought.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

Thor's hour of training on saturdays is non-negotiable. but breaking up their times does sound like it would be better. Its harder to keep them separated during the day for that long (30 minutes). one is either outside scratching on the door to get in and train or in the kennel crying to get out! UGH.


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## GSD2 (Jan 27, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Sounds like too much training time all at once. Maybe split the training time into a few short, to ten minutes sessions. They could very well be bored. Keep it exciting for a few minutes several times a day.
> Just a thought.


 
Yes, and you will want to end on a good note, try to end your session while they are doing great and give a party. I usually have play time (tug or fetch) after a short session. It can be tough to train once you've already lost thier interest, stop the session before that happens. Good luck!


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

>>>> don't be furious. keep training. now when you train
give the command. if they don't follow the command
make them follow the command. give 2 or 3 commands
then treat. slowly cut the treats out. use plenty of praise.

>>>> it's not wrong to use treats during training. you have
to phase them out. i use to give my dog a tiny treat.
imagine a dime quartered. that's the size of a treat i used.
it was thicker than a dime quartered but you get the idea.



marinehoney said:


> I have been working with Rogue and Thor daily for about a month now. If I have treats in hand...
> 
> >>>> they do exactly what I say when I say it. However, if they know I dont have treats...they walk away from me!! Like, completely ignore me.It makes me so furious at them, I cant take it.
> 
> ...


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

marinehoney said:


> Thor's hour of training on saturdays is non-negotiable. but breaking up their times does sound like it would be better. Its harder to keep them separated during the day for that long (30 minutes). one is either outside scratching on the door to get in and train or in the kennel crying to get out! UGH.


That is hard, isn't it? I have that struggle these days as well. I've pretty much given up on training them separately for now. It's actually working rather well to proof Bailey's commands. I put him in a stay and his brother, who isn't to his level yet, will be walking around and distracting him. He'll hold the stay, though. It's double trouble, , but they're both learning. It really is very hard, though, so I understand your stress. Never again in my life will I have two dogs so close in age. (littermates)



doggiedad said:


> >>>> don't be furious. keep training. now when you train
> give the command. if they don't follow the command
> make them follow the command. give 2 or 3 commands
> then treat. slowly cut the treats out. use plenty of praise.
> ...


Thanks, doggiedad -- that's what I'm trying to do... phase out the treats somewhat, but also just make them smaller.


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## marinehoney (Feb 5, 2012)

doggiedad said:


> >>>> don't be furious. keep training. now when you train
> give the command. if they don't follow the command
> make them follow the command. give 2 or 3 commands
> then treat. slowly cut the treats out. use plenty of praise.
> ...


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I skipped to the end after the first page....just wanted to put something out there.

Training them to do stuff without treats WILL Be embarrassing at first.

I once stood at an intersection for 15 minutes until Rocky sat. (ONLY said sit ONE time, while he was looking at me....then he looked away and proceeded to look at every single thing except me! Finally, he gave up and sat and we got to continue on our way)

When we go on our walks, I do not take a single treat. I say a command and we stand in place until he does it....I used to just keep going but once I got firm, he started being perfect!


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## VChurch (Jun 14, 2010)

marinehoney said:


> doggiedad said:
> 
> 
> > >>>> don't be furious. keep training. now when you train
> ...


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

When my puppy went through this stage, I took the approach of: 

1) if I'm at home, never carry treats with me but keep them convenient throughout the house. Mark the successful behavior and immediately go get a treat. 
2) If I'm not at home, carry treats all the time in as scent-proof a container as I can manage - double bagged ziplocks, etc.

That way, puppy quit looking for me to carry treats and starting to phase out treats was simpler.

One thing that got me over the hump with puppy not obeying when he didn't see a treat was to ask him to do something simple, like sit. Of course he ignored me. I calmly pushed his butt into a sit, marked it, then threw a huge party and went and got him one of his favorite treats. When he settled down some, I gave the command again, and this time waited him out until he did it on his own. He thought about it a good while . Again with the party and this time I gave him a treat jackpot. He caught on very quickly.


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## ipopro (May 4, 2012)

Go back to basics. 

Dog(s) on lead, from the heel position, give command - enforce behavior (Sit = pull up on lead *at the exact same time* a slight slap/tap on rear OR push down on rear if necessary), when in position reward the dog with ____jovial verbal praise____ and jovial physical contact (Love-Love-Love-Love-Love).

Con't until you have taught the dog(s) all of the commands.

NO MORE STINKING TREATS FOR OBEDIENCE.

OBEDIENCE = "a form of influence in which a dog yields to explicit instructions or orders from an authority figure" similar to that of humans.

IMO -Treat treats as treats just like ice cream for kids!


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

ipopro said:


> NO MORE STINKING TREATS FOR OBEDIENCE.
> 
> OBEDIENCE = "a form of influence in which a dog yields to explicit instructions or orders from an authority figure" similar to that of humans.


I've always started out all of my training with treats, and I can get really good obedience with them. There's nothing wrong at all with using treats. I consider them the 'paycheck' for the dog doing the work I've asked them to do. Would YOU (general you) work at a bleh job for free? Probably not. But add in a hefty paycheck, and people are generally willing to do a lot of yucky work. 

Then, as stated before, make it intermittant so that the dog never knows if they will get the treat this time, or the next, or the time after that. Much like people, dogs will keep doing it hoping for the reward (like gambling hehe). I personally never completely stop using treats, since the treats I use are generally high quality kibble, or healthy treats I make myself. I do throw in some 'junk food' once in a while for fun. And we use play or 'real-life' rewards as well. I'm not averse to using corrections, but I find I don't need to very often at all with the methods I've been using.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

In order for a dog to "yield to explicit instructions or _orders_ from an authority figure" the dog needs to know what those instructions or orders (wow, REALLY?!?!) mean. The dog needs to be taught, and reinforcing the correct behavior with food or toy rewards is an excellent way of doing so, in addition to praise, which is not inherently meaningful to a dog.


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