# Drive Threshold in SchH Training



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I am reading a book that talks about drive threshold or "Reizschwelle". This is a new concept to me and the book, at least so far, doesn't give a lot of examples.

Just for general knowledge, what does a low or high drive threshold look like in training? What are the challenges of each?

Specifically, I wonder if low drive threshold is what I am experiencing with Bison. It doesn't take much at all for him to get so um..."drivey" that he can't learn. 

Also, I did not raise him to do SchH. (He will be 4 at the end of the month) I wonder what I could have done differently in raising him that would help with this situation.


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

I came across some info on drive thresholds few days ago - see if your questions are answered here: http://leerburg.com/drives2.htm

Check the 'Drive Thresholds' section.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Thresholds are basically a measurement of how must stimuli is required to get a dog to react to something. The more stimuli required the higher the threshold. A dog that has little prey drive would be considered high threshold for prey. Most of this is genetic, but can be influenced by environment. Thresholds also usually increase as a dog ages. Puppies that are VERY aware of their environment (due to being low threshold and not because of weak nerves) will become less aware and reactive as they mature.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthPuppies that are VERY aware of their environment (due to being low threshold and not because of weak nerves) will become less aware and reactive as they mature.


Boy! I hope that you are correct! We have a male who just turned 2 and he is by far the most alert, curious and aware dog that we have ever had (or seen for that matter). Can be a real handful esp. in class or when trying to keep his attention and focus during training.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: gagradyI came across some info on drive thresholds few days ago - see if your questions are answered here: http://leerburg.com/drives2.htm
> 
> Check the 'Drive Thresholds' section.


This information is about defense thresh hold and strength of nerve. Based on what I have read, Bison has good nerve. The book I referenced talked more about prey drive threshold. 



> Originally Posted By: lhczthA dog that has little prey drive would be considered high threshold for prey.


The author made a distinct difference between the level of drive and the threshold. That is what I thought was very interesting. I alway thought that Bison had a VERY high prey drive, but after reading this, I wonder if he has high prey drive with low threshold. I will give you a training example.

Being a novice handler, I am still trying to figure out how to hold the leash, how to grab the treats... just my figity movements are putting Bison into high drive. The last two Saturdays during obedience time durin club, Tim has been coaching me to display confident and clear movements so as not to kick in his drive. It is working better. When I read about the low prey drive threshold, it made me think of this.



> Originally Posted By: lhczthPuppies that are VERY aware of their environment (due to being low threshold and not because of weak nerves) will become less aware and reactive as they mature.


So, Bison is 4 and is still acting like this. I am sure partially due to me not training something correctly when he was a pup. So they say hind sight is 20/20. What should I have done?


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

My first dog Ryot had a VERY high threshold for agression (while he was with me he never reached that threshold, no matter what anyone did, though he was only about 16 months old). He was very self assured and never reacted to anything with agression. Now looking back his temperament was the best out of the 3 I have owned. I would much rather have an overly confident dog vs one with a low threshold for agression(that is what I would want, I'm sure others have different needs/wants)

My second dog, Rade, had a VERY low threshold for agression. One wrong move and the agression came out. He was very trigger happy (weak nerved IMO due to other temperament issues). I went from one end of the spectrum to the other and was not prepared to deal with it. 

Now I would say Mace has a low to moderate threshold for agression (depending on the situation). He rarely barks but watches intently and if there is something he doesnt like he responds to it. For example, last night I was sitting in a parking lot and these two guys came out and started walking towards the car (they were parked next to us). Mace didnt respond, just watched and then they began wrestling and Mace alerted to that. Now had that been Rade he would have been barking/snarling/growling the second he saw them walking towards the car, and Ryot would not have even barked when they did start wrestling. 

I do have a question though. Mace, when he's on the schutzhund field he goes straight into defense. Would that determine his threshold level, or would his everyday life determine it? Outside of Schutzhund it takes a little more to get him into defense, as he likes to sit back and wait for something to happen vs seek it out. 

BTW, I only used agression as a threshold example because thats one thing all my dogs have differed dramatically.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieI wonder if he has high prey drive with low threshold. I will give you a training example.


I would say yes, Bison has high prey drive with a low threshold. Bison, like Mace, feeds off of anything and goes straight into drive. There is no need for build up or frustration to bring the drive out, to bring them higher in drive, yes, but not to bring it out (this is my novice opinion). 

I dont even think Mace has a threshold, he's always in some form of drive, lol


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthThresholds are basically a measurement of how must stimuli is required to get a dog to react to something. The more stimuli required the higher the threshold. A dog that has little prey drive would be considered high threshold for prey. Most of this is genetic, but can be influenced by environment. Thresholds also usually increase as a dog ages. Puppies that are VERY aware of their environment (due to being low threshold and not because of weak nerves) will become less aware and reactive as they mature.


To simple explanation to a new buzz word


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sometimes simple is better and the term threshold has been around for a rather long time.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I really like the part on this article about thresholds 

http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/Elements%20of%20Temperament.htm


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: lhczthSometimes simple is better and the term threshold has been around for a rather long time.


Just a word I have noticed batted around allot lately. The word just isn't used in our club vocabulary much. I think we use more descriptive terms 
"fire up" and such some not so mentionable here. Were sorta blue collar


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Joker, semantics aside, what are your thoughts on the subject?


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## Jason L (Mar 20, 2009)

What about sharpness. I hear this term a lot. Does a sharp dog with low threshold necessarily mean it's a weak nerve dog?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

The book which I now have in front of me to remember the titile, "Training the Behavior" by Gary Patterson, says... 

"In the second example [the example was a back tied dog that could not run away], self defense, the animal has no choice but to try to save itself and will inflict injury in any way to avoid the threat. Self deense always results in fear and stress with the dog never being the winner, no matter the outcome. It's this type of dog that, if it should show this behavior in training, we often describe as sharp or even sharp/shy. While it's difficult to say with certainty, sharpness comes most commonly from the basic temperament of the dog, but I have seen cases where it seemed that poor training or imprinting was the cause. In either case, it should be understood that the excessively sharp dog is never a qualified candidate for any protection wark as it exaggerates any experience to the point where anything can become a threat."


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Sharpness is a low threshold for defense. The dog is easily triggered to view something as a threat.

It does not necessarily indicate weak nerves, though many weak nerved dogs are also sharp.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildSharpness is a low threshold for defense. The dog is easily triggered to view something as a threat.
> 
> It does not necessarily indicate weak nerves, though many weak nerved dogs are also sharp.


How do you tell the difference?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

So, if I understand the concept of threshold correctly...

The dog has different types of drive, reactive aggression (defense), active aggression (fight), prey... The threshold is were they fall on the continuum of how easy or difficult it is to engage that drive. High or low designates how much of the drive the dog has. So in theory, you could have a dog that is…
• High prey, low threshold
• Low defense, high threshold
• Low fight, high threshold

Or is that over simplifying?


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## gagrady (Apr 27, 2009)

Amy, not sure if the drive and thresholds are always directionally opposite as you have listed. Low threshold simply means the dog engages the particular drive quickly. Taking the example of defense - if a dog has a low defense threshold then it is simply quick in perceiving something in the surrounding as a threat. However, this doesn't mean that the dog will hold its ground if the level of threat elevates and in turn the situation is more stressful. The dog simply may retreat and show avoidance. In this case, either genes for defense are completely lacking or it is a dog with weak nerves. In any case, there may be inverse correlation between the drive and the threshold but I don't think you can conclude that as a general guideline. Hope that makes sense.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: gagradyAmy, not sure if the drive and thresholds are always directionally opposite as you have listed. Low threshold simply means the dog engages the particular drive quickly. Taking the example of defense - if a dog has a low defense threshold then it is simply quick in perceiving something in the surrounding as a threat. However, this doesn't mean that the dog will hold its ground if the level of threat elevates and in turn the situation is more stressful. The dog simply may retreat and show avoidance. In this case, either genes for defense are completely lacking or it is a dog with weak nerves. In any case, there may be inverse correlation between the drive and the threshold but I don't think you can conclude that as a general guideline. Hope that makes sense.


Yes, thank you. I should have been more generic in my example. I was thinking of my dog. So, the dog you described might be low defense, low threshold? Other examples could be...

- High prey, high threshold
- High fight, high threshold
- Low prey, low threshold


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

It may help with understanding to think of drives as having different components:

Threshold - amount of stimuli needed to turn it on
Strength - how strong the drive is once activated
Sustainability - how long the drive can be maintained

And any individual dog can have a varying degree of those separate components. So you can have a dog with high defense, but also a high threshold, or high defense and a low threshold. Same goes for prey, food, any other drive really.

That's *really* oversimplifying for the sake of conversation. But you probably get the idea.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

An example of high prey drive, high threshold:

A wolf doesn't see a ball or a rag as prey, you may throw a dozen balls and the wolf wont feel any need to chase one. Those are too different from real preys to trigger the threshold, but if a wolf sees a deer with will chase it until he kills it, the drive couldn't be higher.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Does it mean that if the dog doesn't care for a tug game he still can be high defense/fight drive with high threshold?


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: GSD07Does it mean that if the dog doesn't care for a tug game he still can be high defense/fight drive with high threshold?


I would say yes. A tug game would be indication of prey drive, which does not correlate with defense or fight drive. I would say the dog has a high threshold for prey drive (but it does not measure the amount of prey drive).


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieJoker, semantics aside, what are your thoughts on the subject?


Oh man thoughts are simple I just had about a hundred in the time it took to type this.
I type way to slow we grab our tools, knowledge and dogs start training we got several hundred years of combined training experience in the club and with others I train with we just train the tool box is big and getting bigger all the time. We don't have many labels or instructions on how to get our knowledge or experience we have ether figured it out or been shown how by someone. Good clubs understand Schutzhund dogs and how to train them. Fancy terms and theories sell books and some people use them to impress on chat boards.
We don't discuss fancy but I guess we train fancy. 
I didn't answer your question


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Then it should also be easy to put training fancy into words if thats what you do


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: kingstonThen it should also be easy to put training fancy into words if that's what you do


If a n00b showes up at the club I'm friendly, inviting and corgel but I really don't like to nor am I good at explaining whats going on on the field.
We have others in the club who love to talk and I usually pass them off to them. Don't get me wrong questions should be asked and answered and they are I may be eavesdropping on the conversations and may interject something.
Before I go on the field I will talk with my coach,spotter or helpers what I want to work on before I go out we understand and we train.
After a training session we always discuss, sometimes we go eat and talk/discuss training. The word threshold wont come up in our conversations we all know what the term means in dog training but seldom if ever used in our club lingo.
For me to give a play by play description of Schutzhund and the training wrong guy here.
So why I stuck my head in this thread in the first place was stupid.
Sorry kingston 
SEEYA


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Well Joker, at least you are honest. You are excused from answering.









Now with the clarification, does anyone have any input on the specific situation with Bison? Assuming that I am correct that he is low threshold/high prey...
- What could I have done in raising him that would make this not as much as a challenge.
-What techniques would you use in training a dog like this?


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