# Letting my reactive dog make friends?



## pxsb (Dec 1, 2017)

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on this site. My GSD is a 20-month old, intact male, purebred ASL from Woodside German Shepherds (Vancouver, B.C.). I've had him since 8 wks old. He's my first dog ever so I did a lot of research on the breed beforehand and thought I had done a good job researching the breeder but ended up being very unhappy with my choice (for reasons I will cover in another post). 

To give you some background, as a puppy, he didn't show any signs of aggression (at least, none that my inexperienced eye would have caught). He would let strangers and new people approach him, and he would even let some people outside his immediate family pick him up, but he was never really into being pet or held and merely tolerated it. I am basing this off the fact that he would approach people to smell them but would often swerve away or wander off disinterestedly when they tried to pet him. 

I socialized him extensively by walking him in busy, public routes and trails, taking him with me to coffee shops and parks, farmer's markets, schools and playgrounds. I started taking him to the dog park once he was fully vaccinated at three months old. His first few times in the dog park, he was shy around other dogs and would hide under the bench. Eventually, he started to play with other dogs (irrespective of breed, size, gender, etc) but would occasionally hide under the bench if a dog came on too strong. At the 6-month mark, he was getting on well with other dogs but he still preferred to find a stick and have me throw it. He would play if a dog approached him but mostly wanted to play on his own. I know that many GSDs are like this but I had been cautioned that not socializing a puppy can have disastrous outcomes so I encouraged him to play with the other dogs as much as I could. 

By the time he was around 8 months old, his back would start to arch when he saw another dog and I learned that he was fearful, but the arch of his back would go down once he got to smell the other dogs, so I thought the solution was to let him approach them and to continue socializing as he was still young. But on-leash, it became worse: he started to growl when he was allowed to approach, even once he smelled the other dog. I didn't really know how to correct him at the time but I would pull him away to give him space, make him sit, and tell him quiet. Other owners would usually give me dirty looks so I eventually stopped letting him approach unfamiliar dogs and would go out of my way on walks to give him extra space. His behavior only got worse as he would pull me anytime he saw another dog, and later started barking, pulling, and trying to lunge. 

He had done puppy socialization classes and basic obedience but once he started barking and lunging, I immediately found a trainer that was well-regarded in IPO circles and had extensive experience working with GSDs. She explained that he was barking and pulling towards other dogs on-leash because I had 'over-socialized' him by letting him play too much which made him think other dogs were more important than me. Her advice was to stop going to the dog park altogether, even though he was not growling, barking, or lunging at dogs when he was off-leash in the dog park, and to give him extra space away from other dogs on walks. Suffice it to say, that did not work and his reactivity only got worse. 

Fast-forwarding a bit, I met with other trainers that also didn't help until I had to move for work and finally found an extremely effective trainer. We started attending regular training group walks and agility classes, and just started using an e-collar. Under the supervision of the trainer, we let my dog approach and play with two dogs in the past week. The first dog was an intact 4 y/o female GSD, and the second dog was a fixed 7 y/o female Rottweiler. Both times, he did not show any signs of aggressive behavior, approached them calmly and smelled them, let them smell, etc, but he also didn't do too much playing, likely because the other dogs were a bit older and not interested. But my question is whether or not he's ready to meet new dogs? His trainer believes that he needs to play with dogs that are confident and balanced, hence the reason we have set up playdates with older dogs, but also that females are less likely to provoke or be provoked by him. And related to this, is it reasonable to expect him to befriend other male dogs more readily once he's neutered?:gsdbeggin:

I'd also appreciate any general comments and feedback regarding his behaviour and his training. Thanks!


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I don’t have time to write much (got to get back to work!), but I agree with no dog parks. And I disagree with your trainer thinking he needs to play with other dogs. He needs to learn to ignore them.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Just a reminder - Breeder bashing is not allowed. Please don't post anything negative about any breeder.

I agree with dogfaeries - No dog parks and not necessary to have 'doggie' friends. My DA shepherd learned to ignore other dogs. That is all you need your dog to do.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

Taking him to a dog park has made him dog reactive. He is fearful on the leash because he cannot get away. Its going to take some work to teach him to ignore other dogs and focus on you when they approach. No more dog parks. He does not need to 'play' with other dogs.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I'm not a professional dog trainer, and my current puppy is only my 3rd GSD, but I have worked with 100s. All of them have been different. 

My first dog was an intact male who was okay with his packmates, but never friendly with outsider male dogs. With him I just avoided other male dogs as much as possible, and taught him strong OB to handle those times when avoidance wasn't possible. 

My last dog, a female, liked other dogs okay, but didn't really care one way or the other. Her I could and did take with me everywhere off leash, and she behaved perfectly when confronted with new dogs or people...again, due to very strong OB training, but also because it was her nature. I never took her to a dog park, didn't know such things existed if they even did back then, but she met and played with many many other dogs over the years. Still, that dog was always focused on me. One word from me and she would instantly respond.

My current puppy quickly outgrew my fenced yard, so for exercise off to the dog park we went. Her experience there was very similar to what you described with your puppy...spent considerable time hiding under the table when older dogs got too rough. Unlike others, I don't see that as a negative. There are things your puppy learns from interacting with other dogs that you would never be able to teach them, and I want my puppy to know how to handle herself with all types of dogs, not just well behaved, friendly ones! And she's actually grown to be quite adept at that as she's matured.

So, that's both the background and the prelude for what I am going to say next. I think trainers can give you great advice...sometimes. And depending on their experience and goals, their insights can be invaluable. But, at the end of the day, it's your dog and your life, what are your goals for your dog? If you're like me and want a dog that can go with you anywhere and everywhere, then I'd say keep letting your dog interact with other dogs. There are things that he'll learn from them that you can't teach him. But you can't be squeamish about letting him learn those lessons, and they won't likely all be pleasant >

That being said, it sounds to me like your puppy is/was going through a fear period, which is pretty common at that age (for my dog it happened at 9 months). If he wasn't hunching his back or acting out at other dogs before that, I suggest backing off dog interactions, and anything else that seems to cause him undue stress, until he's gotten beyond or recovered from this; usually passes within a few weeks. Once he seems to be over these new fears, resume the interactions with whatever was troubling him before gradually. My pup was very nearly over being leash reactive to other dogs before her fear period at 9 months, but became very reactive during her fear period again. So we had to almost start over with desensitizing her to on-leash dogs again. At 11 months she's fine again with dogs on leash, but it took some effort.

As I said above though, it's your dog and your life. I don't think that dogs HAVE to play with or even interact with other dogs to be happy and healthy. Most GSDs that I have known don't care much about playing with other dogs once they fully mature. And even my puppy has gotten much more aloof in that regard even while surrounded by other playing dogs. She'd rather play fetch with me by herself, or with any kid that happens to be present, she loves kids! So I can't help wondering what your trainer's goal is. Dogs that have never been allowed to play at the dog park still play nicely later in life with the occasional other dog, so clearly it's not a necessity. 

I will say that the idea that your dog needs to be trained to focus on you all the time, or that playing with other dogs and puppies will somehow derail that focus, is, IMHO, absurd. I've honestly never seen a GSD that wasn't pretty lasar focused once they grow up. These dogs bond strongly, and nothing but mismanagement on your part can impact that. 

It is likely, but by no means guaranteed, that your dog will be somewhat less aggressive toward other male dogs once neutured. 

Sorry for being so long winded here, but hopefully you'll find something helpful in all that rambling! Good Luck!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

YeAh no dog parks the goal is for your dog to learn to ignore other dogs that they are of no concern because you give him no reason to worry as you have his back, How can he do that if you emphasis( if your dog is worried about other dogs)to focus on other dogs. German shepherds are not naturally super social outside their circle. If you know someone with a well behaved dog -a one on one basis and go for walks together I think is an idea.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I have a asl megabucks is his grandsire did not get max from woodside. He does not like other dogs either but I can remind max to mind his business if we are around a dog wherever we are which took time. He gets along with the dogs In the family a gsd and chihuahua. Neutering also can have negative effects in health and make some dogs less confident. I would find a trainer who is familiar with gsds. Another thread on here regarding socialization http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=722490


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

your dog is pretty smart then -- you take him to a dog park , while he wants to play with you ! 
He brings you the stick and he wants to play with you !

the first trainer sounds like he was better than the second who you think was "extremely effective"
using an e-collar to force dog to dog friendliness, your agenda , for which the dog has no need .

yes the dog was over socialized in the wrong way.

he does not need to play with other dogs . Full stop - period.

he sounds like a decent , good dog --- allow him to be one .

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...0-rethinking-popular-early-socialization.html 


what other things is your current trainer doing ?


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

First mistake was bringing a 3 month old puppy into the dog park. This is exactly what happens when you bring a puppy that young to the dog park. Take your dog to a park where there’s no other dogs. Throw the ball for your dog....he wants to play with YOU.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

It seems funny to me, peculiar not humorous, that so many people suggest that a dog park is damaging to a dog or puppy. My puppy was ultra reactive on leash with other dogs, so my thought was that she was afraid of them and I needed to get her around more dogs to help...let her see that they were okay. To give some background, she had never been on a leash until I brought her home. But she was up on her hind legs snapping and lunging at passing leashed dogs immediately when I put her on a leash. So the reactivity clearly had nothing to do with good or bad socialization, it was just a puppy fear kind of thing...or aggression who knows. 

At any rate, even though some older dogs played a bit rough for my puppy at 5 months ( kept her isolated until then), she was not traumatized by that and continues to be very good with other dogs...

So, when I see people trying to blame over socialization on this puppy's on-leash reactivity, I can't help thinking it's wrong. So many puppies have this issue that it doesn't, at least as far as I can tell, have anything at all to do with over socialization. I could be wrong...but that is my experience. If my assessment and experience is wrong, then please explain why so many dogs who've never been to a dog park have exactly the same issue!? I'm really confused by that!


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

I should add here that taking my dog to a dog park did very little to relieve her on leash reactivity toward other dogs, as I'd hoped. But it did help some...and it certainly didn't make it worse.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I think by "over socialization" they mean that the pup / dog was allowed the expectation to go meet and greet any dog they had interest in. When they are on leash and don't get to go greet the other dog or invite them to play they display leash reaction. It may not be aggression. It might just be frustration. That was the case with my big-boy back in his youth. We had a few play dates with other dogs that we knew but most of the dogs did not want anything to do with his young big pup "joy of life" playstyle.

What I ended up doing was to take my boy to an AKC basic obedience class. We were already training for IPO so I didn't really need the OB part of the class. I needed a room with other dogs on leash in a fairly controlled environment to teach my boy that he could be near other dogs without the expectation of playing. It took one whole class to get him to simply pay attention to me instead of romping over to the other dogs. After that we could actually do the work near the other dogs on a mostly loose leash.

It worked for him, unless the other dog is being a nosy little snot...but then I have to admit, those little yippy dogs might just be amusing for him to watch.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I was trying to look for that socialization link that carmspack posted but I had to run out. I think every dog pup is different just like people some are just more socially outgoing then others and just speaking within the breed who can be control freaks by nature. 

Over socialization means putting them in a overwhelming situation where the pup feels overwhelmed and not having a good experience. Often the puppy will show very slight display of being overwhelmed. Socialization should be a positive experience where the puppy is having fun and imprinting is positive. 

My thing was always enjoying my dogs and going to parks and beaches. I think all my dogs I had I never thought of them to play with dogs. Socialization with dogs was never my emphasis but I think a few controlled and positive interactions with trusted family or friends dog is important as a pup,even if it means just going on a walk and I’m not talking about a pack walk. I’m talking about a scenario where the pup is actually not concerned but feels safe and happy around a trusted stable dog. 

I wish I had known stable dog that max was able to be around as a pup even if it meant just going on walks. Going to a dog park would not have helped him one bit. Can’t see how it would help a young pups ego. I have gone To a dog park to check it out awhile back. Their are some people who have full control of their dog in dog parks. Some enjoy watching their dog bully other peoples dogs and usually have no control of their dogs. I had brought Max to my moms once and he got run over as a pup. I took him to puppy classes where he ignored a classroom filled with other puppies who not interact together. When max got a bit older at the 6 month mark he started to react to them then worked on focus exercises. Occasional charging dogs from neighbors houses, so he did not really have any good interactions with dogs. Learned a lot in class though in dealing with this and timing. A long road for him to ignore other dogs. I have seen him on two occasions not be bothered by other dogs when I was not Around. Now on walks and at beaches and places similar even past barking dogs, max does not need a much of a reminder to be well behaved. When we go back to noseworks with a room full of dogs he will need more of a reminder. 

Our next pup Luna we did a different way. As a pup she would be excited to meet other dogs and maybe a little unsure. Made sure I set up a few play dates with really nice calm dogs that I knew through our sheep herding instructor. Skipped puppy classes. Luna is indifferent to other dogs although she does not like charging dogs which we had a few of. In nose works class she completely ignored other dogs with no help from me.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

A lot of dogs are reactive on leash because they are frustrated. Therefore going to the dog park is not going to solve anything. 

I am anti dog park but on occasion I do bring kona to the dog park if there’s onl a few dogs in there. We bring her to the dog beach all the time, but that’s more open. It has done amazing for her dog-dog socialization.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

konathegsd said:


> A lot of dogs are reactive on leash because they are frustrated. Therefore going to the dog park is not going to solve anything.
> 
> I am anti dog park but on occasion I do bring kona to the dog park if there’s onl a few dogs in there. We bring her to the dog beach all the time, but that’s more open. It has done amazing for her dog-dog socialization.


My relative had a beautiful dog park near her not a boxed in fenced area so many go to here. She has a husky and is a place to let her dog off leash. Huskies are bred to be social with other dogs and they have a lot of fun there and i can see why she likes it. She does not understand why I don’t like it for my dogs


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## pxsb (Dec 1, 2017)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Just a reminder - Breeder bashing is not allowed. Please don't post anything negative about any breeder.


Thanks for the FYI! I had seen people in other threads asking about this particular breeder (and the propensity for dogs from this breeders to become fearful / reactive) so I thought I would share my experience... What is the rationale for not posting anything negative about breeders?


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## pxsb (Dec 1, 2017)

dogfaeries said:


> I don’t have time to write much (got to get back to work!), but I agree with no dog parks. And I disagree with your trainer thinking he needs to play with other dogs. He needs to learn to ignore them.


To clarify, the new trainer doesn't think he needs to play with other dogs either. But I personally want to be able to have my dog off-leash on trails and hikes and right now I can't because he doesn't ignore them, he runs towards them growling and barking, so the goal of these introductions with other dogs (as opposed to our training groups, where the dogs are not supposed to smell each other or play so as to keep the focus on us) was to see how he would approach a dog when he was not on leash. I think I was hoping he would play with them because he seemed to enjoy playing with dogs so much when he was younger, though I understand that not all dogs need to play with other dogs, especially GSDs.


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## pxsb (Dec 1, 2017)

Absolutely!!! My problem with the first trainer was that in addition to advising against dog parks, her advice was to basically keep him away from other dogs (on and off leash), to give him space, etc, and that just isn't what I'm looking for. I'm all for giving him space until he builds the confidence to ignore other dogs and the OB to focus on me, but not to avoid other dogs for the rest of his life. So you're exactly right about it depending on my goals. I want to be able to take him with me everywhere, and it sounds like strong OB is really the way of doing that.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

what your trainer advised is HOW you get your dog to ignore other dogs. Allowing him to interact with them simply teaches him that other dogs are out there to be played with and interacted with. You are working against your own purposes. 

He learns to ignore other dogs by learning to keep his focus on you when other dogs are around. Not by being allowed to interact with other dogs in the hopes that he will somehow learn to ignore them.


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## Bentwings1 (May 29, 2017)

There are some differing opinions and good reasons. I think the problem is people. You never know what people have done with their dogs. You meet a strange dog on the street that has no training other than getting yanked around on a leash and you have an open door for a barkfest at best. Get two big dogs too close and you probably will have a nasty dog fight. 

So as a result we avoid all contacts wth dogs. I just don't want to deal with other people and their problem dogs. It's caused a major issue with my own dog. An off leash untrained big dog came after Samantha when she was young. I got to the big dog before it got much of a bite in but it was enough to start the problem. Shortly after that we were alone in our private dog park just playing in a corner and a lady turned her puddledoo loose and it came after my dog like a bullet bent on doing damage. it dodged me and got a nip in before my dog clamped it's muzzle shut but good. " you're dog hurt my dog" I heard as I grabbed the dog and tossed it away. I told her the next time she turns her dog loose and it comes after us I'd I'd pepper spray it senseless. The end result is my dog hates the dog park and gets very anxious just coming home. Daily training with lots of watch me and rewards are softening this but it's taken almost four years. We live in an appartment with about 75 dogs at any given time. We see other dogs every time we go out. Only one other dog has been even basic trained in seven years I've been here.

I took my dog to trainer with seven other dogs. We let my dog sniff and pace the fence untill she was calmed down then let her in with the others. They all had a sniff fest then more or less just trotted around and chasing each other. We did this for a week. It really calmed my dog down. She got to race the other dogs around and herd them together. There were no dog fights or bark fests. I suppose you could call it dog play but I think it's not. It's learning dog manners in each dogs mind. "Hey, what nation are you?" Is what the dogs ask each other. " I'm called Aussie. What are you" from my dog. " nice to meet you, I'm called German Shepherd, you want to race me?" " you're on, get moving, I'll give you a head start" from my dog. " what are you dogs doing? " from the wolfhound. " we' re drag racing. Want to try it?" " Naha, I'm a circle tracker. How about a couple laps around here?" "'Y'er on. Me and Aussie are going to dust you. On three, go". And away they go. And so it goes. 

The key is to let the dogs work it out without getting overly excited. That's why we started with just the fence sniffing. If the newbe gets too excited then he gets a time out before everyone gets wound up. It may take all day to get everyone calmed down but it the dog's learning dog stuff, not people stuff not people teaching the dogs. Once they work it out they will,be ok. 

Sometimes you get a couple dogs that just can't get along. Not all people get along either, so separation is a must here. You just have to accept it. Yeah, you can force the issue by extreme measures but it will only be suppressed until you don't expect it. Then there is going to be a couple big vet bills. Better safe than poor.


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