# attack command!!



## djvectrex

how do i teach my dog to attack on command, if ever needed? thanks


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## Lauri & The Gang

Ok, define "attack". Do you want the dog to:

1. Keep someone at bay by barking
2. Keep someone at bay by barking and, if necessary, biting
3. Bite and hold someone until help arrives

#1 is easy to do - just teach your dog to bark on command and then use the command any time you feel threatened. Most 'bad guys' will walk away from a barking dog (especially a GSD).

#2 & #3 will take years of training, which your dog might not be suitable for anyway. You would need to have the dog evaulated to see if it has the right temperament to be a personal protection dog. Then you need to go through all the initial training and frequently do follow up training.

AND you would need to talk to your insurance company about liability protection. If a bad guy breaks into your house and stabs you and your dog bites him - he CAN sue you. Doesn't matter than he broke into your house.

Personally, I go with the fact that a German Shepherd already has 'reputation' due to the breed being used as police dogs. Add to that a good bark (on command) and you won't have to worry about 99% of the criminals out there.


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## JeffM

My dogs are just plain ole loving pets but I would have to say you teach it to attack by having it properly trained by a professional.


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## Kayla's Dad

My initial response is; Why would you want to? 

Second: If you're really looking for protection trained dog, you would want to find a qualified experienced trainer in the protection field for evaluation and to train under. 

You also want to consider the liability issue. Looking at some of the wonderful pictures of your puppy, it looks like you may be in a neighborhood where your neighbors are close by?


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## littledmc17

Yeah I have to agree!!
Why would you want your dog to attack unless you were a K-9 Cop

My trainer taught me "WATCH THEM" which gets Brady to do Big boy bark and usually scares people. 

But if I am walking ans see someone I try it for the heck of it and he does nothing cause he knows I am fine


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## Keegan62

in my experience which is fairly limited

PEOPLE ARE JUST SCARED OF THEM HAHAHH

When we has Ernie the ups guy would not come near the house LOL ahhaha Ernie big Wus and he didn't knowq that hahah hahahah

Whever we went people just are afraid and that is enough

If someone ever went to hurt you and the dog sensed it I think he would react matter of fact think any dog might

one thing I would like to share
we moved from Va to Nc and stayed in hotel
walked to waffle house 2 blocks away.... we came back adn the door to hotel opened and hew as gone
we paniced big road near there
i got in car and went quickly to waffle house
he tracked us there and was pawing the door in the pouring rain to find us

wrapped the fender on the car was so excited to see him LOl
and from that point forward we could never board or leave him alone in hotels

Loved that dog


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## Emoore

Buy a handgun. Learn to use it. Be a man (or woman) and learn to defend yourself and your family.


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## Mandalay

> Originally Posted By: EmooreBuy a handgun. Learn to use it. Be a man (or woman) and learn to defend yourself and your family.


I have to second this. If someone were to break in and Mandalay were to bark...would I want her to go at them not knowing if they were armed or not and if so, what they were armed with? No. I would not want to risk my dog leaping at someone holding a gun or a knife. I want her to bark like a freak and if they call her bluff and come in anyway, I want her to move the h3ll out of the way so my husband or I can take care of it. 

(sidenote: I own a pink Taurus...PINK!! I LIVE for the day that someone will break in and I can tell the cops I shot them with a PINK gun!!!







Seriously, I dont really look forward to it, and I hope with everything that it never happens, but how great would it be for Mr. Macho break-in guys friends to find out he was shot by a woman and her pink handgun







)


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## VectorSketcher

Mandalay - I like your pink handgun idea, ha ha!

I have to agree with everyone else, to teach an attack I would think a professional trainer would be the way to go if you really wanted to go that way. With Riddick I tell him "Whose Here" or "Watch Him" and he will focus intently on who ever it is, never barking until that person makes a movement towards us. But like everyone else said I think just the fact that a GSD is staring you down has most people freaked, so no need to add force behind it unless you and your dog are trained properly. I would like to confidently know that I could turn that kind of force on and off like a switch before invoking it.


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## lcht2

im gonna get a sign to put on my window that says

 "the dog is nice"
"BEWARE OF OWNER"

right now im doing protection work with tyson. im not doing it because im a big wuss. im 6'1 and 175lbs and can snipe a humming bird from a 100 yards...i can hold my own...so the reason for the training is to give tyson a "job." if u really want ur dog to be a protection dog and not just a scary one then have him/her trained.


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## RebelGSD

> Originally Posted By: EmooreBuy a handgun. Learn to use it. Be a man (or woman) and learn to defend yourself and your family.


 Excellent advice


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## GunnerJones

I got two that will bite a sleeve and "watch him" and come from police/Sch lines but frankly if I thought I needed a personal protection dog and had the money to buy and maintain one, I'd use that money to move to a better neighborhood.


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## Fodder

just to 'third' Emoore & Mandalay...

i've only had two situations where my dogs have "proven" themselves... in one case i was walking really late at night and passed some high teenagers that thought i'd be funny to sneak up on me and test my dogs... in my opinion they passed, a lunge from gia and tildens bark is all that was needed.

the 2nd time there was someone running (from whom?) thru our property around 2am... the gate to our driveway was open and the dogs were off leash because we were about to leave, gia saw the guy first and when i saw her alert i grabbed her,  and the guy proceeded thinking i only had one dog - as he got close tilden saw him from the house, began barking and took off after him... i was at a loss because i didnt want to yell and have tilden think he was doing something wrong, but at the same time i was more concerned about my dogs safety than my own. thankfully the guy hopped the back wall and tilden came back, but the guy could have (at the very least) easily kicked tilden in the chest before leaping that wall and injured him pretty bad.

so all that to say - a dog will naturally protect you! those on the board that have met tilden in person will attest to him being a friendly and silly puppy - but when the time comes (came) instincts kick in!

its been told to me more than once that unless professionally trained - dogs either bite out of fear or aggression... and that very few dogs actually have the confidence to bite and hold it. thats why dogs have to be properly assessed and evaluated for bit work - you cant just take your neighbors gsd or rottie that looks like he's ready to rip the fence apart to get to you and use it as a protection dog - you'll have a nice fat lawsuit sooner or later.


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## MaggieRoseLee

It's easy to do.....................find a good Schutzund club. Join. And spend the next few years training!

That way you learn what you need, your dog becomes a balanced and trained dog. And you don't ever have to worry about having a liability in the home rather than a beloved pet.


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## GunnerJones

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeIt's easy to do.....................find a good Schutzund club. Join. And spend the next few years training!
> 
> That way you learn what you need, your dog becomes a balanced and trained dog. And you don't ever have to worry about having a liability in the home rather than a beloved pet.


best advice yet


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeIt's easy to do.....................find a good Schutzund club. Join. And spend the next few years training!
> 
> That way you learn what you need, your dog becomes a balanced and trained dog. And you don't ever have to worry about having a liability in the home rather than a beloved pet.
> 
> 
> 
> best advice yet
Click to expand...

i would say find a PPD trainer rather than a schutzhund. 

training for schutzhund is kinda like training someone for a martial art.

a person can go to training and he knows he's gonna learn, win, and not get hurt by his trainer.

a person can go to a competition and he knows its not "real", he's done it 1000 times and he knows roughly what to expect from the opponent who is also fighting out of the same training.

some people will lose every fight they get into on the street even though they do well in martial arts. other people will be great at fighting both in competition and in "real" fights. some people will be great at "real" fights but have a personality disorder that makes it difficult for them to control themselves when it comes to sport. but thats a whole 'nother type of dog. 

dogs and dog sports are the same. dogs are not stupid, they know the guy who's sleeve they are biting isn't going to kill them. they know the routine and what to expect. schutzhund is a pattern, even the protection phase of schutzhund is basically a long obedience routine that the dog has done many many times.

some dogs are born with the genetics to be natural soldiers. others aren't but can still do sports. many dogs bite well in the sport because its fun, they always win, and they are never threatened by the helper or feel threatened (pressure) from the helper. which is where PPD training differenciates itself. the decoys PUT the pressure on, the dogs are put in real life situations, not a ring.


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## Barb E

And the thought of the average Joe taking his GSD to a PPD trainer scares the sh*t outta me


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## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeIt's easy to do.....................find a good Schutzund club. Join. And spend the next few years training!
> 
> That way you learn what you need, your dog becomes a balanced and trained dog. And you don't ever have to worry about having a liability in the home rather than a beloved pet.
> 
> 
> 
> best advice yet
Click to expand...

Still the best advice given


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: Barb E.And the thought of the average Joe taking his GSD to a PPD trainer scares the sh*t outta me


how is that scary? do u have to be an excecutive ceo to own a PPD??


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## DianaM

If someone is stupid/high enough to come through a barking GSD (because he WILL be barking as he'll sense your distress), forget the dog, they will need a gun to be stopped. Don't wait for the police, you and your dog will be dead by then.

Now if you have a gun and have had some defense training, then by all means seek out a professional. Purchase a dog that is bred/imprinted to be capable of this sort of work. Get darn good insurance and have a darn good lawyer on retainer. You'll need both. Be mindful that true protection dogs require careful supervision and are a huge responsibility. They do not have human-quality judgment (and yes, even WE are wrong... a lot) and one wrong mistake will land you in court, and once they find out your dog was protection trained, you will be raked over the coals, your dog will be killed, and any assets you have will promptly be turned over to the plaintiff.


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## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Barb E.And the thought of the average Joe taking his GSD to a PPD trainer scares the sh*t outta me
> 
> 
> 
> how is that scary? do u have to be an excecutive ceo to own a PPD??
Click to expand...

no, but you have to be AS TRAINED AS the dog... if not, then i agree - its scary.

i dont think she was talking $$$


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## DianaM

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Barb E.And the thought of the average Joe taking his GSD to a PPD trainer scares the sh*t outta me
> 
> 
> 
> how is that scary?
Click to expand...

The average Joe Q. Petowner has problems teaching his dog to sit, be 100% housebroken, not dig the yard, and be polite when guests come knocking. Do you really want them in control over an 85 lb bag of muscle, instinct, and teeth trained to fight?


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## Fodder

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> The average Joe Q.


ahem, Joe Six-pack


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Barb E.And the thought of the average Joe taking his GSD to a PPD trainer scares the sh*t outta me
> 
> 
> 
> how is that scary?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The average Joe Q. Petowner has problems teaching his dog to sit, be 100% housebroken, not dig the yard, and be polite when guests come knocking. Do you really want them in control over an 85 lb bag of muscle, instinct, and teeth trained to fight?
Click to expand...











which comes to the fact that the GSD is not for everyone. the instinct of a GSD to defend his/her territory and pack comes to the fact that it does take a resposible owner to be sure of the safety for the dog and others.


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## Foo Lyn Roo

Go to a qualified trainer. Before you can teach your dog attack he has to be completely under your control.
There are good ways and bad to teach a dog aggression, the wrong way can end very badly for the dog.


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## Packen

> Originally Posted By: djvectrexhow do i teach my dog to attack on command, if ever needed? thanks


Kick him in the nuts and say packen, he will bite you







I'm funny


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## Packen

If you are serious then first you need to decide whether you want the dog to defend you if someone tries to mug you or do you want the dog to bite a non threatening person upon your cue. 
Second you get the dog evaluated to find out whether is he/she has what it takes, it will be a simple yes or no. 
These are 2 different types of training involving dogs that are non equipment oriented and can take a couple of years to teach a suitable dog and handler. Finding that suitable dog is the tough part.


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## Rei

I agree that you should not put a dog between you and a person who could potentially be carrying a lethal weapon. In many ways, dogs are more vulnerable than we are, and I'd rather go at a person with my own bare fists than have a dog do it for me


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## nitetrane98

Since nobody seems to want to answer your question, I'll have a shot at it. 
Until your dog is bulletproof obedient and has rock solid recall, don't even think about it.
Once you've taken care of all that then you will have to enlist the help of an agitator. You can't do it yourself. This helper will likely need to be somebody who knows what he's doing and not a personal friend as dogs seem to have a very good memory about these sort of things. Sounds exactly like a lot of the good advice about getting a trainer. 
This is how I was trained to train my K9 20 some years ago.
Now since you said that you want him to attack on command, presumably you don't want him to bite anybody else. 
You start off having the dog at heel and people come up and talk to you like everyday life. Then once in a while the agitator will do something to try and get a reaction from the dog. Lunging, stomping foot, whatever. Any positive reaction is praised and the badguy goes away. The dog always wins. Next time a little more more reaction is required for the badguy to go away. This is where you start incorporating some kind of command to alert him that this might be a badguy. "Watch him." for instance. This is ultimately going to be a trigger for possible aggressive behaviour so it can't be used for anything else. In other words, if you say "Watch him." and somebody comes up and pats you on the shoulder, don't blame the dog for what he does. Plus, you want him calm and collected when the mailman walks up to you. Eventually the agitation has to go up to the point that barking won't make the badguy go away. This is where a tweak of the ear or a little nip of the flank will make the dog escalate into a little anger at the badguy and you might get a little growl and some pretty pearly whites. You will be encouraging and praising this. You can start to interject the command, "Talk to him." Now bear in mind that all of this is done at heel with a very minimum of lunging and dragging you around. So far, all you've been trying to teach is to be alert when you say, "Watch him." If you give him this command you should be suspicious of the person in the first place and if you are then you should stop an approaching person at several paces to talk to you. Some totally innocuous person may have a habit of gesturing wildly as he talks. Your dog won't understand that. 
This is sort of the introduction to your dog that there are people in the world that you don't like and therefore he doesn't like.

All this time, the dog has won every battle and the badguy has always gone away. His confidence has been boosted every step of the way. All of a sudden, all the barking and growling won't make the badguy go away. Now comes the moment of truth whether or not the dog has what it takes. The next command is, "paken", "stop him", "hit", or whatever you choose. Your badguy will have a bite sleeve on and you will allow your dog to do basically whatever he can to make the badguy go away. Of course, he'll still be on leash. Left to their own devices a lot of dogs prefer to rip out a throat. Messy, messy, messy. Then you have the chore of making him quit when you say so. Sometimes a whole lot harder that getting them to bite in the first place.

I've gone on way too long, but I hope you can see it is not something to be taken lightly and not something that you can do by yourself.
One other way, though, is to just make your dog mean as snake and when you turn him loose chances are good he'll attack somebody, preferably the person you had in mind and not you.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Originally Posted By: Chris08Since nobody seems to want to answer your question, I'll have a shot at it.


I thought almost everyone gave good advice.











> Quote:i would say find a PPD trainer rather than a schutzhund.


Though PPD training is easier (only trains the protection phase, right?) That's EXACTLY why I don't think that's a good idea. Teaching a dog to bite isn't nearly as hard as teaching them to think, to NOT bite, and to let go.................

I personally feel that training in Schutzund gives a much more balanced aspect to training. With the protection only being 1/3 of the mix, and the other 2/3 involve really working with the dog to become the best leader and really utilize all their talents. Think for the vast majority of us this will give a better dog that we can trust in the home and in all situations.

God forbid I don't train my PPD dog properly and someone innocent gets injured. I'd never forgive myself. And with the dog probably having to be put to sleep (killed) cause I didn't train properly, it's a high price to pay and the DOG is paying it.


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## RebelGSD

I noticed that the OP posted a question and then disappeared from many threads. I see many putting in considerable effort to educate the OP, I wonder whether he even reads the replies.


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## MaggieRoseLee

> Quote:I noticed that the OP posted a question and then disappeared from *many threads*. I see many putting in considerable effort to educate the OP, I wonder whether he even reads the replies.


'many threads'? I just moved this one from the general training topic to here hoping even more replies could be given to the OP. 

I also should have had a pointer at the original location to show them where I put it. If I messed that up, MY FAULT, let me go see what happened.........


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## RebelGSD

I mean the breeding thread and some others. The OP asks a provocative question and disappears. If he did not post the photos, I would suspect a troll.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLee
> 
> 
> Chris08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:i would say find a PPD trainer rather than a schutzhund.
> 
> 
> 
> Though PPD training is easier (only trains the protection phase, right?) That's EXACTLY why I don't think that's a good idea. Teaching a dog to bite isn't nearly as hard as teaching them to think, to NOT bite, and to let go.................
> 
> I personally feel that training in Schutzund gives a much more balanced aspect to training. With the protection only being 1/3 of the mix, and the other 2/3 involve really working with the dog to become the best leader and really utilize all their talents. Think for the vast majority of us this will give a better dog that we can trust in the home and in all situations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> PPD is not easier. It is different. No decent PPD trainer is going to omit solid obedience from the training program. But PPD obedience, like PPD protection, is different from SchH obedience in many ways and will be more geared toward practicality rather than competition.
> 
> I agree, for this a PPD trainer is the better choice. Just make sure it's a GOOD one. There are more marching morons out there claiming to train protection dogs who have no clue what they are doing, offering poor training and dangerous, unstable animals than there are good trainers producing well trained PPDs.
> 
> Many SchH people cross train in both, and many PPD trainers have a background in SchH. Most of the early training is much the same between SchH and PPD, but as the dog advances it heads off into different directions.
> 
> I'm moving this to the PPD section since that is a more appropriate section of the board than SchH for this topic.
Click to expand...


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## SouthernThistle

We always talk about a friend of ours who is a police officer in the area. The scenario goes something like this:

If someone is stupid enough to break into this house...

1st: There is a decal on the window for the USMC and NRA
2nd: The house has an alarm system
3rd: If they get through the alarm system into the garage, they see a police cruiser
4th: If they're still stupid enough, they are met by Ruger, the German Shepherd
5th: If they get through Ruger, they are greeted by Tim, 240 lbs of muscle and an arsenal of firearms


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## JakodaCD OA

actually they might want to invest in a cat,,I always say,,my cats are definately forces to be reckoned with more so than the dogs!

diane


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> 
> MaggieRoseLee said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:i would say find a PPD trainer rather than a schutzhund.
> 
> 
> 
> Though PPD training is easier (only trains the protection phase, right?) That's EXACTLY why I don't think that's a good idea. Teaching a dog to bite isn't nearly as hard as teaching them to think, to NOT bite, and to let go.................
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: Chris08Since nobody seems to want to answer your question, I'll have a shot at it.
> Until your dog is bulletproof obedient and has rock solid recall, don't even think about it.


yea i thought there were plenty of good suggestions and advice.. 

and like was mentioned before..a GOOD PPD trainer is going to pass up solid obedience... enough said


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## Barb E

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildJust make sure it's a GOOD one. There are more marching morons out there claiming to train protection dogs who have no clue what they are doing, offering poor training and dangerous, unstable animals than there are good trainers producing well trained PPDs.


This is what scares me about the average Jill looking for a PPD trainer


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## GSDluver4lyfe

> Originally Posted By: JakodaCD OAactually they might want to invest in a cat,,I always say,,my cats are definately forces to be reckoned with more so than the dogs!
> 
> diane


LOL, I have to agree!! The other night I was messing around with my dog and started screaming and my cat came running and BUSTED through my door (I have french doors, but I block it with my garbage can at night) and tried to go after my dog. Man, I could not stop laughing.







. I caught him mid-air everyone was fine....


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## ladylaw203

how do i teach my dog to attack on command, if ever needed? thanks 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That is rather involved. It would take a responsible,competent trainer to first evaluate the dog's temperament to find if the dog was suitable for that kind of training, then a permanent commitment on your part to maintenance train as well as the realization on your part that you would have a dog that could be a liability if he was truly trained as a PPD. Very few people have the need for this kind of dog


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Chris08Since nobody seems to want to answer your question, I'll have a shot at it.
> Until your dog is bulletproof obedient and has rock solid recall, don't even think about it.
> 
> 
> 
> yea i thought there were plenty of good suggestions and advice..
> 
> and like was mentioned before..a GOOD PPD trainer is going to pass up solid obedience... enough said
Click to expand...

oops my bad i meant ISN'T


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## Malinoid

> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeIt's easy to do.....................find a good Schutzund club. Join. And spend the next few years training!
> 
> That way you learn what you need, your dog becomes a balanced and trained dog. And you don't ever have to worry about having a liability in the home rather than a beloved pet.
> 
> 
> 
> best advice yet
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i would say find a PPD trainer rather than a schutzhund.
> 
> training for schutzhund is kinda like training someone for a martial art.
> 
> a person can go to training and he knows he's gonna learn, win, and not get hurt by his trainer.
> 
> a person can go to a competition and he knows its not "real", he's done it 1000 times and he knows roughly what to expect from the opponent who is also fighting out of the same training.
> 
> some people will lose every fight they get into on the street even though they do well in martial arts. other people will be great at fighting both in competition and in "real" fights. some people will be great at "real" fights but have a personality disorder that makes it difficult for them to control themselves when it comes to sport. but thats a whole 'nother type of dog.
> 
> dogs and dog sports are the same. dogs are not stupid, they know the guy who's sleeve they are biting isn't going to kill them. they know the routine and what to expect. schutzhund is a pattern, even the protection phase of schutzhund is basically a long obedience routine that the dog has done many many times.
> 
> some dogs are born with the genetics to be natural soldiers. others aren't but can still do sports. many dogs bite well in the sport because its fun, they always win, and they are never threatened by the helper or feel threatened (pressure) from the helper. which is where PPD training differenciates itself. the decoys PUT the pressure on, the dogs are put in real life situations, not a ring.
Click to expand...

Steve,

While I don't completely disagree with you, avoiding someone who trains in SchH, while looking for a Protection dog, simply b/c SchH is a sport isn't smart. Most PPD 'trainers', especially those that cast dispersions upon SchH, are typically people who couldn't or never have trained a dog in SchH. Like you said, it depends largely on what a individual dog is capable of, and it depends on the person's training style and expectations. The VAST majority of Police & Military dogs working today are from SchH, KNPV & French Ring backgrounds, all of which are sports. The amount of pressure put on the dog is entirely dependent on an individual handler and helper. The TD of our SchH club trains police dogs, his SchH1, StP3 Giant Schnauzer, would seriously injure someone in a Police or Personal Protection situation. He has imported, trained & placed with Dept's some real brutes, all have a sport background or come from breeding of sport dogs. The bottom line is, long-time SchH people often have a very good perspective on which dog's have real protection caspability vs. one's that a pure sport.

John Haudenshield


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## Chris Wild

Agree 100% with John. Especially the statement of "those that cast dispersions upon SchH, are typically people who couldn't or never have trained a dog in SchH."

I would add, in addition to being ignorant of "sport" training, a large number of those people also use that attitude as a means to make themselves look tougher, more manly, more serious about protection, etc... Typical tear others down in order to build themselves up because they can't stand on their own qualifications type behavior.


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## lcht2

> Originally Posted By: Malinoid
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: lcht2
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaxGunnar
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: MaggieRoseLeeIt's easy to do.....................find a good Schutzund club. Join. And spend the next few years training!
> 
> That way you learn what you need, your dog becomes a balanced and trained dog. And you don't ever have to worry about having a liability in the home rather than a beloved pet.
> 
> 
> 
> best advice yet
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> i would say find a PPD trainer rather than a schutzhund.
> 
> training for schutzhund is kinda like training someone for a martial art.
> 
> a person can go to training and he knows he's gonna learn, win, and not get hurt by his trainer.
> 
> a person can go to a competition and he knows its not "real", he's done it 1000 times and he knows roughly what to expect from the opponent who is also fighting out of the same training.
> 
> some people will lose every fight they get into on the street even though they do well in martial arts. other people will be great at fighting both in competition and in "real" fights. some people will be great at "real" fights but have a personality disorder that makes it difficult for them to control themselves when it comes to sport. but thats a whole 'nother type of dog.
> 
> dogs and dog sports are the same. dogs are not stupid, they know the guy who's sleeve they are biting isn't going to kill them. they know the routine and what to expect. schutzhund is a pattern, even the protection phase of schutzhund is basically a long obedience routine that the dog has done many many times.
> 
> some dogs are born with the genetics to be natural soldiers. others aren't but can still do sports. many dogs bite well in the sport because its fun, they always win, and they are never threatened by the helper or feel threatened (pressure) from the helper. which is where PPD training differenciates itself. the decoys PUT the pressure on, the dogs are put in real life situations, not a ring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Steve,
> 
> While I don't completely disagree with you, avoiding someone who trains in SchH, while looking for a Protection dog, simply b/c SchH is a sport isn't smart. Most PPD 'trainers', especially those that cast dispersions upon SchH, are typically people who couldn't or never have trained a dog in SchH. Like you said, it depends largely on what a individual dog is capable of, and it depends on the person's training style and expectations. The VAST majority of Police & Military dogs working today are from SchH, KNPV & French Ring backgrounds, all of which are sports. The amount of pressure put on the dog is entirely dependent on an individual handler and helper. The TD of our SchH club trains police dogs, his SchH1, StP3 Giant Schnauzer, would seriously injure someone in a Police or Personal Protection situation. He has imported, trained & placed with Dept's some real brutes, all have a sport background or come from breeding of sport dogs. The bottom line is, long-time SchH people often have a very good perspective on which dog's have real protection caspability vs. one's that a pure sport.
> 
> John Haudenshield
Click to expand...

i just say this because if you want a PPD u can cast out the tracking part of schH. PP trainers do put a lot of pressure of the dogs, more than schH, so haveing a dog with SOLID nerves is a must. im not dissing schH by no means, there is just a bit of a difference when it comes to the protection as far as pressure. your right about a schH dog haveing real protection capabilities and like i said before, a schH dog can be a great PPD. 

so back to the OP's question, he was pretty much asking a question about haveing an attack command. the easiest way to build the dog for protection would be protection training. SchH would be a little more than what he may want but not a bad idea to have to dog do, as far as SchH and PP training, i think it would depend on what the OP wanted for his dog.


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## ladylaw203

The VAST majority of Police & Military dogs working today are from SchH, KNPV & French Ring backgrounds, all of which are sports. The amount of pressure put on the dog is entirely dependent on an individual handler and helper

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A lot of what we use are titled sport dogs which IF the dog is solid,makes a good background, however, sport is sport and it is an arbritrary routine and a good trainer can title a weak dog. This is why we perform VERY thorough evaluations on titled dogs. Many aspects of police work that sport does not address. 

A titled sport dog is not by any stretch of the imagination street worthy until a LOT more training has gone into him. Sport is a nice background if,as I say, if the dog is solid


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## Malinoid

Renee,

I agree eith you 100%. The reason I wrote what I did was b/c Steve's post made it sound like the sport arena has little hope of producing protection dogs. For real world work, it's much more about the individual dog, than it is the papers or a sport background.


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## rickou812

I'm new to the boards here as well, but it would seem to me that an untrained dog would be more of a liability than a properly trained one. Especially when we are talking about working breeds such as GSD's, Rott's, etc..

It has already been pointed out that our dogs will bite if they feel indangered or in the act of protecting there territory/pack. A properly trained protection dog should not ever attack unless commanded to do so...right? Part of the training involves developing control and not reverting back to instictual reactions..

Just here to learn,
Rick


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## ladylaw203

> Originally Posted By: R.CookI'm new to the boards here as well, but it would seem to me that an untrained dog would be more of a liability than a properly trained one. Especially when we are talking about working breeds such as GSD's, Rott's, etc..
> 
> It has already been pointed out that our dogs will bite if they feel indangered or in the act of protecting there territory/pack. A properly trained protection dog should not ever attack unless commanded to do so...right? Part of the training involves developing control and not reverting back to instictual reactions..
> 
> Just here to learn,
> Rick



Yes, dogs should have obedience. However, NO dog is going to fully engage a human being without being trained. Your dog may well bite depeneding on temperament,but not literally engage a human unless the dog is nuts. Most folks DO NOT need a dog honestly trained in personal protection. Folks do not maintenance train their dog and then they really have a liability.


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## DanL

> Originally Posted By: EmooreBuy a handgun. Learn to use it. Be a man (or woman) and learn to defend yourself and your family.


The difference is I can call my dog back. I can't call a bullet back.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: DanL
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: EmooreBuy a handgun. Learn to use it. Be a man (or woman) and learn to defend yourself and your family.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is I can call my dog back. I can't call a bullet back.
Click to expand...

True. But at the same time, that bullet doesn't have a mind of it's own and thus isn't going to be making any mistakes in judgment and deploy itself in the wrong situation. A dog can. Even with a 100% vigilant owner and excellent training, no animal is completely predictable.


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## Fransheska

well, i was threatened at the park one day. i had only had kenya for 2 weeks and she barked, growled and totally surprised me.and that was enough to scare him off. in most cases, thats all it takes. i honestly believe that if someone came into my house and tried to hurt me, most GSDs wouldnt need any training, they love us enough to do SOMETHING when we are being hurt. its natural to be protective of us 

on the other hand, i am working VERY hard to teach kenya that it IS NOT her job to protect me from everything. if someone was to break in, and god forbid have a gun or a knife, i wouldnt want kenya getting in the way/getting hurt.


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## Brightelf

The very PRESENCE of a GSD is an incredible deterrant. And, it isn't the size of the GSD, but it's attitude, that makes him or her scary. Examples from this board are Renji (tough-looking but not tall), Onyx (very dark, stocky dog with sizable bone), and Brady (a blanket blk/tan with a very solid, square build). Dogs like this give pause to anybody wanting to do you harm. Remember it is confidance and attitude, not gender or size. (my own male is huge, but gives off a goofy puppy vibe still-- wouldn't deter a soul)


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## SunCzarina

More than a few people have said 'If I touch those kids, that dog would take my arm off wouldn't she?' about my Morgan. It's definitely how she carries herself and the look in her eyes. She's willowy but not tall, has a pretty face and is typical b/t. 
The Queen of Mean


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## SpeedBump

> Originally Posted By: ladylaw203
> 
> 
> R.Cook said:
> 
> 
> 
> NO dog is going to fully engage a human being without being trained.
> 
> 
> 
> Never trained my last one in protection of any kind but intruders were greeted with a dog growling at their crotch. He only did it 3 times that I know of and the third time the guy tried to swing at him, which was really stupid when there is an 80lb dog with his teeth bared at your crotch. The man paid the price for his stupidity as Casey had a very strong bite and naturally knew how to hold it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, we have moved from that neighborhood to a much nicer locale.
Click to expand...


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## pac liter

I protection trained my yellow lab. It was easy. Learned from the best, STEVEN SEGAL. 


Better not try breaking into my home. Especially if you are soft, cuddly, and dressed in a big bird costume.


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## mssandslinger

SouthernThistle said:


> We always talk about a friend of ours who is a police officer in the area. The scenario goes something like this:
> 
> If someone is stupid enough to break into this house...
> 
> 1st: There is a decal on the window for the USMC and NRA
> 2nd: The house has an alarm system
> 3rd: If they get through the alarm system into the garage, they see a police cruiser
> 4th: If they're still stupid enough, they are met by Ruger, the German Shepherd
> 5th: If they get through Ruger, they are greeted by Tim, 240 lbs of muscle and an arsenal of firearms



HAHA wish this was my house!


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## mssandslinger

the only problem i have is when i tell my dogs to speak "at someone" they look at me and sit down expecting a treat! haha so i have to figure a way to make them back at who i say


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## AEA

Emoore said:


> Buy a handgun. Learn to use it. Be a man (or woman) and learn to defend yourself and your family.


I agree 100%!


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## Lilie

mssandslinger said:


> the only problem i have is when i tell my dogs to speak "at someone" they look at me and sit down expecting a treat! haha so i have to figure a way to make them back at who i say


Ms K on this forum shared some German words with us a while back. I use one of those words when I want Hondo to pay attention (I do not want him to bark, I want him to look alert). When I say that word, he'll stop what ever he is doing and look around, very alert, very scary looking.


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## chicagojosh

Emoore said:


> Buy a handgun. Learn to use it. Be a man (or woman) and learn to defend yourself and your family.


Emoore, did you ever think he might want protection while on walks? 

I too own guns, but they cannot be carried. Not to jock myself, but I've also knocked a few teeth out in my day. In my neighborhood there could be 6 gangmembers hanging out on the corner. Despite me being a pretty tough dude, I (nor anyone else) clearly cannot take on 6 dudes. A K-9 with an attack could come in handy then.


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## mssandslinger

Lilie said:


> Ms K on this forum shared some German words with us a while back. I use one of those words when I want Hondo to pay attention (I do not want him to bark, I want him to look alert). When I say that word, he'll stop what ever he is doing and look around, very alert, very scary looking.


oooo! im going to look into that! i want my guys to look scary at least instead of happy lovebugs all the time lol, i do have some weird people in our development.


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## mssandslinger

chicagojosh said:


> Emoore, did you ever think he might want protection while on walks?
> 
> I too own guns, but they cannot be carried. Not to jock myself, but I've also knocked a few teeth out in my day. In my neighborhood there could be 6 gangmembers hanging out on the corner. Despite me being a pretty tough dude, I (nor anyone else) clearly cannot take on 6 dudes. A K-9 with an attack could come in handy then.



agreed. if you were being jumped it would be nice that your dog could take action and help out


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## Emoore

chicagojosh said:


> Emoore, did you ever think he might want protection while on walks?
> 
> I too own guns, but they cannot be carried.


Not sure where you live, but I carry a small handgun to work, church, the grocery store, restaurants. . . all places you can't carry a dog. I also carry when I'm hiking or walking with my dog. Yes I have a permit. 

I firmly believe my job is to protect my dog, not the other way around.


Edit: I see you're in Chicago. I'm in TX. _Totally_ different as far as local gun regulations and mindset. Never mind.


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## Chris Wild

chicagojosh said:


> Emoore, did you ever think he might want protection while on walks?
> 
> I too own guns, but they cannot be carried. Not to jock myself, but I've also knocked a few teeth out in my day. In my neighborhood there could be 6 gangmembers hanging out on the corner. Despite me being a pretty tough dude, I (nor anyone else) clearly cannot take on 6 dudes. A K-9 with an attack could come in handy then.


The problem is that most people have no idea what a PPD is, the type of dog this takes, the type of training this takes, or the type of responsible and very vigilent ownership this takes. That lack of understanding is combined with a rather unrealistic and fanciful view of a PPD as some sort of canine superhero. It is not.

Get right down to it, even RinTinTin isn't going to stand a chance against "6 dudes". Especially not if they are armed, which they probably are if they are even thinking of trying their luck with ol' Rinty and his owner in the first place.

For most people, all that is needed is a dog who looks the part and is a good visual deterrent. Add in some common sense about avoiding dangerous areas when possible, and perhaps a means of defending one's own self, and that is sufficient.


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## chicagojosh

ah yes Emoore, very different gun laws in our respective states.

I would never want my dog to have to help me in a confrontation, and if someone broke in while im home i have a nice Browning Citori 12 gauge awaiting them.

i do see the value in a GSD with an attack command though, but am certianly not passing the buck when it comes to protecting the pack.

Chris, you are correct me and my dog can't take on 6 people. and i also totally agree the visual deterrent is the biggest thing. i would like to add though, if i would have picked 3-4 gangbangers instead of 6, a PPD could make the difference between walking away or riding away in an ambulance


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## Wildtim

4? one with a gun would be to many at least for the dog to survive. 2 to the dog 2 to you, one guy can do that in under 2 seconds. If the dog doesn't deter the thugs you are both dead, simple as that.


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## smyke

Emoore said:


> I'm in TX.


say no more. LOL


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## chicagojosh

Wildtim said:


> 4? one with a gun would be to many at least for the dog to survive. 2 to the dog 2 to you, one guy can do that in under 2 seconds. If the dog doesn't deter the thugs you are both dead, simple as that.


 oh, of course with a gun me and my dog are dead... lots of them do carry, but there are a lot that don't have guns. some have knives/brass knuckles etc. or others will just try to whoop your #@$ by out numbering you (where a PPD could really come in handy).

I carry a 4" blade on me though..thats the best i can legally do. I'll attach a couple pics from a non-profit chicago gang awareness site to illustrate the "corner hanging" some of you may not be familiar with


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## chicagojosh

life in da hood...


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## chicagojosh

...pics were too big


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## Catu

djvectrex said:


> how do i teach my dog to attack on command, if ever needed? thanks


how do i build a bridge?

how do i perform surgery?

thanks


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