# Kira starting to play too rough with her playmates...suggestions?



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Kira has a regular group of playmates that she's been playing with for a few months.

Today, I had to pull her from her playdate. She's almost 14 months, and she has a terrible habit of mouthing a younger dog by their throat, and holding them down. She doesn't bite or put a strong grip on the throat, but she puts her body weight on the other dog, and keeps them there.
The dogs she's doing this to, could be anywhere from a 6 month Lab, pit or GSD to a 90 pound 1 yr adult dog.
No growling, no aggression, the other dog's are playing, it's the owners that are obviously concerned and afraid of her.

Her playdates have become invaluable in her development, and I'd hate to lose them.

What are your thoughts on this?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

They play rough. I don't know how you would teach her to play any other way. My golden uses his weight when he plays. But I think that any of the dogs that you mentioned can handle it. The only problem is that if they feel threatened then a fight can start. Most of the people with these dogs will never understand that this is the way she plays


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Any dog that "mouthed" my dog by the throat will be either hit with a stick, kicked with all my strength, or stabbed with my car key.

Rocky has been bitten in the throat by TWO pitbulls and I had to pay a ton of money for stitches. What did the owners say right before the attacks? "He is just playing" "He just plays rough"

Even if your Kira means NO harm, other owners do not know your dog (even if your dogs play together once a week). I would have asked you to train her more or leave the group if Rocky was there with me.

I am being completely honest and not trying to put you down. But I would not risk my dogs life or health so that your dog can play rough.

Dog's don't need friends. I socialize Rocky with humans and other dogs ever day on our walks and petsmart visits and he is a complete gentleman in public.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Time to change up her 'play-dates' with only a couple dogs that she gels with. I don't think it will deter her development to just have a dog or two to play with. My dogs only have each other, and it is fine by me(and them).
Better than injuries occurring.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They do play rough. My own Doxies play this way and dogs do play "intimately" with dogs they know and are familiar with.
I think Jane's advice is most sensible.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Any dog that "mouthed" my dog by the throat will be either hit with a stick, kicked with all my strength, or stabbed with my car key.
> 
> Rocky has been bitten in the throat by TWO pitbulls and I had to pay a ton of money for stitches. What did the owners say right before the attacks? "He is just playing" "He just plays rough"
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. That's why I removed her. I also know that this behavior to the wrong dog, could have terrible consequences. I most certainly wouldn't want another dog doing that to Kira either.
I called her off the other dog, and she responded. 2 minutes later, she did it again.

OTOH, I'm reading that this type of play is very common with GSD. 
I'm as concerned for the safety of my dog, as much as the owners of the other dogs are concerned for theirs.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> They do play rough. My own Doxies play this way and dogs do play "intimately" with dogs they know and are familiar with.
> I think Jane's advice is most sensible.


Agreed. My male GSD does this to my spayed female Pit Bull, but only with her. I don't think he's threatening her life or her health.
I don't have a play group for him either. He's happy playing with me and his housemates.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

She needs some GSD friends who understand her style of play. How 'bout the notorious white GSD?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Time to change up her 'play-dates' with only a couple dogs that she gels with. I don't think it will deter her development to just have a dog or two to play with. My dogs only have each other, and it is fine by me(and them).
> Better than injuries occurring.





msvette2u said:


> They do play rough. My own Doxies play this way and dogs do play "intimately" with dogs they know and are familiar with.
> I think Jane's advice is most sensible.


As both probably know, I've been on a confidence building mission with her for a few months. I've controlled her playdates to dogs in her temperament class, and maturity level. I've kept the playdates to no more than three dogs.

Maybe it's time to get her involved with more mature dogs??
I have a couple 1-2 yr old GSD friends in the area. They have different schedules, but I may be able to arrange something.

FWIW, she played very well with that White GSD yesterday. He's 2.5 years old.
Maybe it's part of her maturing???


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Sunflowers said:


> She needs some GSD friends who understand her style of play. How 'bout the notorious white GSD?


She had a blast with him, but wouldn't pull that throat stuff on him either. They were just mouthing each other, but no pinning.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Why do you need to have her play with other dogs? 
It isn't going to build her confidence in the way you think, if anything it could backfire, females tend to be pretty serious if they don't have a bond with the other dogs...even with a bond, there is snarkiness quite often with mature dogs. I have to watch my dogs often so there isn't over the top playing, and they always have a ball in their mouths so they don't bite each other.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Our Molly went through a short phase of mouthing by the throat, then trying to drag the dog. Luckily she does not do this anymore. Every once in a while, she will still get really caught up in playing and things get on the borderline between play and aggression. When that happens I tell her to go "down". I do a short time out.

Do the dogs she plays with show/vocalized signs of pain when this happens?

I'm hoping this is part of Kira's development that will quickly pass. I have to disagree with the statement from post #3 that dogs don't need friends. My dog loves her neighborhood friends and my daughter's dog. Molly sometimes guides me on our neighborhood walk to her friend Roxy's house, a pit/boxer mix and she stalks the house where her two husky friends live. On hikes or in the creek, Molly is much happier and playful when my daughter's dog is with us.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Why do you need to have her play with other dogs?
> It isn't going to build her confidence in the way you think, if anything it could backfire, females tend to be pretty serious if they don't have a bond with the other dogs...even with a bond, there is snarkiness quite often with mature dogs. I have to watch my dogs often so there isn't over the top playing, and they always have a ball in their mouths so they don't bite each other.


Kira looks forward to her friends. It expels all her energy, and gives me a break. I live in the city, so it's not so easy to find open fields for her to run. I set up playdate once a day for about an hour, and she's good until her evening walk .


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think that you should explore the options of getting her together with other GSD's and hopefully males. Everyone always talks about socializing a dog, so this is why you have your dog play with other dogs, correct? I think that if you take that away from certain dogs then you have to deal with a dog that just don't like other dogs and that makes it harder to take your dog for walks or anywhere where other dogs are. In my own experience...with my mom's first Rott specifically..she was with my dogs and once she went to my mom's and was by herself with no interaction with other dogs, she no longer was safe for my dogs to be around. Within two weeks we couldn't put them together This is from a dog that was around other dogs her whole life until my parents got her. I think that its important for them to have that interaction, just to keep them balanced(especially if DA issues are popping up). Again just my opinion


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

Could you channel her energy into another activity that doesn't involve a group of loose dogs? Maybe training classes of some kind or something?


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## onthethreshold (Aug 15, 2012)

*Aggresion*

She is still a puppy basically .I had a white shepherd who did the same and did not break him of it until he was two years old and understood no means no . She has the "Alpha Syndrome " which can be brought under control .I have a shepherd puppy who beat up 8 siblings and she is socializing nicely now .Keep working and get her to understand NO. I found yelling the word helps .Good luck .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony really -- almost word for word -- quoting YOU "Not to make this a two part thread, but I'm also noticing a change in the way Kira plays with her usual playmates. She's starting to become the predator, and she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again. No growling, no biting, just open mouth with her body weight holding the other dogs down.

To those that have watched Kira mature, this is very uncharacteristic of her, and a drastic opposite change from being the prey vs the predator.

Is this typical of her age to see this change? " from thread "what do you make of this reaction" 04/20/2012.
You had 7 pages of good advice.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com 
04-20-2012, 11:06 AM #*1* (*permalink*) Anthony8858 
Elite Member

 

Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,695


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Ruger is a high impact dog. (I just made that phrase up). What I mean is that he plays in a very high level of drive that overwhelms other dogs and children. His play usually include very aggressive barking and jumping around. Therefore I have to refrain from letting him play like this. When the neighbor kids come over or when other dogs around I just put him away. I am not really concerned with his social life. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

llombardo said:


> I think that you should explore the options of getting her together with other GSD's and hopefully males. *Everyone always talks about socializing a dog, so this is why you have your dog play with other dogs, correct? I think that if you take that away from certain dogs then you have to deal with a dog that just don't like other dogs and that makes it harder to take your dog for walks or anywhere where other dogs are.* In my own experience...with my mom's first Rott specifically..she was with my dogs and once she went to my mom's and was by herself with no interaction with other dogs, she no longer was safe for my dogs to be around. Within two weeks we couldn't put them together This is from a dog that was around other dogs her whole life until my parents got her. I think that its important for them to have that interaction, just to keep them balanced(especially if DA issues are popping up). Again just my opinion



I have to disagree. Letting your dogs play with other dogs doesn't make them well socialized. I socialized my dog by teaching him how to properly behave when in the presence of other dogs. He didn't have scheduled playdates and yet everywhere I go, he is easily the most well behaved and controlled dog. I would never continue to push a dog to play with other dogs if they are showing dog aggression...That's just an accident waiting to happen.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It depends on the dogs thresholds/reactivity. You can't change genetics. My females are reactive, no matter how many playdates we've ever or never had it is what it is. My male is high threshold, could care less about playing with other dogs...he has a solid temperament. 
Liability happens when dogs are pushed into situations that they can't deal with/over their threshold. Not worth it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I am thinking it might be time to substitute another activity for doggie playdates.

Doggie play groups are great for puppies. At a certain point, usually around puberty, the play can start to get a little more serious, as maturing pups try to push their boundaries and test other dogs, seeing who they can push around and how far they can take it. This can cause tension and strife in the group. Not all dogs do this, but GSDs are fairly notorious for it...

So, usually when the pup is 5-6 months or so, I stop going to puppy playgroups and transfer to a human-dog activity like obedience training, agility, or what have you. It's a good time, mentally, for the pup to go from being a baby playing with her "littermates", to forming an active, working relationship with a human.

This advice is sort of breed-specific for GSDs, btw--other breeds may have different needs.

As to the "throat hold" that Kira does--I've never had a GSD that didn't do this. It's just the way they play, but not all other dogs (and certainly not all other dog owners) can appreciate this. If you have two GSDs that have a similar play style, it can be just fine, but in a mixed group of varying breeds, ages, and temperaments, it's best not to allow the "throat hold".

But instead of taking Kira to a play group and constantly having to get after her for the way she plays, why not take her somewhere and play ball with the Chuckit, or Frisbee, or practice heeling, something like that, just the two of you, for fun and exercise. Or join an obedience or agility class, or even a SchH club!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I honestly do not think she needs doggie playdates. You live in the city but I see plenty of places to throw a ball, ride a bicycle, do other things to wear her out and interact with you. You can do things like nosework, obedience etc...mental things wear them out some. Tug (boy, that wears ME out) Agility.

She is doing to other dogs what you were coming here all freaked out about.

What is going to happen NOW with a mature dog? They may not put up with this nonsense one bit. Her "puppy pass" is gone. She might take a correction. She might not and if it gets really on it can get pretty bad.

I have done it both ways and it only took me 2 DA dogs to realize puppy play with anything but wee pups was a bad idea. JMO.


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## lilysmom (Dec 27, 2000)

Hmmm.. I think sometimes we lose context with the basic fact that our dogs are animals. I really don't understand when one thinks their "best" friends need to have dog friends. You be her play mate.. if she needs to run off that energy, do it with her, IMO, you shouldn't need another dog/playmate to do it. Enjoy your dog for what she is. JMO


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Once a day for an hour sounds like a but much. Stosh plays with a male gsd of similar size maybe twice a month. And it's not just free for all play, we go for a hike first, maybe let them swim in the lake, then they wrestle around and play for a little while. The other times he plays is at our obedience club but it's on occasion and it's more goal oriented games rather than all the dogs interacting with each other the whole time. I agree with others who suggest that she doesn't need THAT much play.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

What is this thing that GS need to play with other dogs....especially off leash outside of YOUR pack? I just don't get it....Thanks Onyx Girl for your first response!


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## ohdev (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm not sure what the best age to start this would be, but I'm sure someone will be able to say if this would be a good idea or not. Perhaps start bike riding with Kira? This is one of the things I look forward to doing the most once my pup is grown enough. It doesn't have to be long I'm sure, just a little bike ride every morning or evening to make her a happy, tuckered out girl.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Like Jocoyn posted, cI'd rather track, hike, tug, do obedience or some type of mind exercise than just randomly run my dog. I saw a dobe being exercised on a lunge line yesterday. He looked OCD in the way he was running(at a resort, no place to exercise properly?) It made me sad to see the owner holding the flexi while the dog ran in a circle. 
Dogs need the mind worked as much as the body.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony really -- almost word for word -- quoting YOU "Not to make this a two part thread, but I'm also noticing a change in the way Kira plays with her usual playmates. She's starting to become the predator, and she's starting to scare the cr*p out of her friends. Her "friends" are not liking this too much, and starting to retreat away from her.
> She's grabbing by the throat, and pinning every dog she plays with. She holds them there, until they break free, than chases and does it again. No growling, no biting, just open mouth with her body weight holding the other dogs down.
> 
> To those that have watched Kira mature, this is very uncharacteristic of her, and a drastic opposite change from being the prey vs the predator.
> ...


Carmen,
OMG.. Thank you for reminding me about this. I honestly forgot that this happened before.
I'm under SO MUCH STRESS lately, I don't remember what I did yesterday.

Ok, so 4 months ago, I briefly witnessed similar behavior. Apparently hasn't been an issue since. Until now..
I still don't think it's an issue to be concerned with, because I don't have the overwhelming desire to have these playdates. Ending them right here and now wouldn't be the end of the world.

I had the playdates, thinking it was good for her. Kira was shy as a pup, and the playdates took her out of her shell. It gave her a chance to have a good romp with a companion she was comfortable with.
I didn't see any harm.

Just to clear with the others, I don't always have the playdates off leash. Sometimes, I'll meet up with a friend and his / her dog walks.
Tonight, we did a leashed walk throughout the park area.
I only had a few dogs that I would allow Kira to play with.

Only now is she beginning to show what ( I forgot) she started to show back in April.

*Stosh*:
It's not an hour of playtime. I enjoy my evenings out in the local parks, and many times a week, it's more of a social gathering for the humans, with the dogs on leash. We're just enjoying the Summer evenings. If we do decide to let a dog or two romp, they're usually finished in about 10 minutes, at most.

*Freestep*:

I have to agree. The playdates are for puppies, and she might be losing her puppy ways. I don't have a problem doing this.

WHile everyone was posting, I was talking to a GSD owner friend. He was telling me that he had to stop his playdates too. "Bruno" was brutal, and rough with other dogs too. He had to stop around 15 months.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Rooney plays like this with dogs. I only allow it when I know the other dog owner and the dogs have known each other for a year or more. Never with random dogs, and never with acquaintance dogs at the park. I don't suggest finding a GSD to do this with because these are dominance pins...and although the other dog might also do them, they might not like getting them done to them. I know my boy loves showing his "dominance" on other dogs (no humping just other stuff) but when its done to him, he freaks out and defends his honor. So finding another GSD might just lead to those kinds of issues.

It took a while...but I've been able to teach him not to do it as often as he used to. Now he tends to find one dog (if at the dog park) and constantly pin that one dog. So I just remove him from that one dog and it fixes things. Although he's generally the biggest and baddest dog at the park, I don't want him bullying other dogs because I don't want him bullied. I know some might not agree with this method but I would make him down right by the dog and let that dog sniff and walk around him until he was done, if I had to hold him down for this I would. He gets the picture real quick that I am the dominant one in that situation and he doesn't have to battle for pack position when I'm around. After a few months he got much better at looking at me for direction on what to do at the parks and around other dogs.


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

I know my original post sounded very disapproving...just wanted to let you know that Rocky tried to do this with the foster dog and would do it with dogs he was "intimate" with. I discouraged this because I didn't want the foster (border collie) to do it to other dogs in her new home, and my dad would freak out when Rocky did this


After learning "gentle" to play with the kitten, Rocky stopped this mouthing behavior. He learned he could only play with the kitten if he didn't use his mouth and I guess he thought this applied to dogs as well,...

Good luck and thanks for being an Awesome owner and trying to fix it


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmen,
i went back and read the entire thread. i cant believe I forgot abiut this. Regradless, the advice was good, and also educational.

I dont want any trouble with strange dogs and their owners, nor do i want to put my dog in harm's way.

I completely understand.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> I know my original post sounded very disapproving...just wanted to let you know that Rocky tried to do this with the foster dog and would do it with dogs he was "intimate" with. I discouraged this because I didn't want the foster (border collie) to do it to other dogs in her new home, and my dad would freak out when Rocky did this
> 
> 
> After learning "gentle" to play with the kitten, Rocky stopped this mouthing behavior. He learned he could only play with the kitten if he didn't use his mouth and I guess he thought this applied to dogs as well,...
> ...


No, not at all.
Kira was pinned as a pup, and I wanted to kick the owner's *ss.

I asked for opinions, and I got them. That's why I'm here. 

I disapproved too, that's why I removed her. I wouldn't want to be the other owner. 

I post every little thing about Kira. i want to learn as much as possible about the growth and behavioral patterns of these dogs.

Show me a better way, than to learn from those that have experienced it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony in this thread you say you have to rely on the dog blowing her energy in the dog park because you live in the city and can't find open fields , but in the last thread , you know the hot potato Kira with escalating aggression you said "I took her to an open field, and played frisbee (her favorite) for over an hour." 

So you do have access to open field. 

You ask "Show me a better way, than to learn from those that have experienced it. " and the answer would be personal experience .

Chose something constructive to do with the dog. Join a training club , stick with it , with a goal , something as simple as training for and achieving a CD obedience title. Joining a schutzhund club and getting an AD and a BH . Stop there if you want . 
Do agility. Look in to Nosework.

Take that open field . Teach the dog tracking . Get some metal clothes hangers and cut them so that you have mini stakes . You can put a little twist of surveyors tape on them so that you can spot them. Within a distance of these markers have something for Kira to find .Work her on nylon rope , something light , 20 feet long .

You'll get your experience . The dog will get tired , mentally exhausted .


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony in this thread you say you have to rely on the dog blowing her energy in the dog park because you live in the city and can't find open fields , but in the last thread , you know the hot potato Kira with escalating aggression you said "I took her to an open field, and played frisbee (her favorite) for over an hour."
> 
> So you do have access to open field.
> 
> ...


Carmen, thank you for the wonderful suggestions.

Owning a dog in my neighborhood, can be challenging. There are only 2 designated dog runs, and a leash law, that forbids dogs off leash between 9am and 9pm. The fine for an off leash dog is up to 600.00.

The first dog run is no more than a 1/4 acre. It's fenced in, and always crowded. Taking the advice from the this board, I made it my business to have one on one playdates with her. At the time, it was a good idea, but quickly losing its charm.
The other designated area is a beach front area, sitting on a few acres. Again, EVERYBODY goes there before 9am. After 9am, dog must be leashed.

The "frisbee hour" was when I chose to take my chances one afternoon. I could have gotten a summons, but I wanted her to get some exercise.
As you can see, getting her some exercise, can be challenging for me.

I do play frisbee with her everyday on my property, but she really doesn't have the ability to "let it fly" It's a small game in my back yard.

As far as the schools....

The closest "school" (for better words), is a non-profit basic obedience and agility school. It's a small, indoor school, primarily made up of puppies in basic training. I went there with Kira for 5 months, and it gave us a decent foundation. I did my best from there.

I looked into Shutzhund for her. 
A few problems here for me. Number one, the nearest school was a 2.5 hour drive. I know wouldn't have been able to commit to that. I have a wife and three children, and a demanding career. Just not enough hours in the day, and not enough days in the week.

So as you can see, getting her some quality exercise can be frustrating on my part.

In my area, dog parks are a way of life. There's no way to avoid them.
If you want let your dog off leash, you have to go to the dog park. I've managed to avoid other dogs, by going off hours. I make playdates with known dogs, and keep it simple.
I don't like that either. I fight with my wife every day about this. She has no problem throwing her in there with 20 dogs. I want no part of that, so I do my best to keep her in a controlled environment.

If I could have it my way, I'd have her in a Shutzhund club. Unfortunately, it's not practical. Believe me, I've contacted them all.

She LOVES to run. I think some of her problems that I bring up, could be related to frustration, and pent up energy. 

Carmen, believe me, we all love this little girl. We want what's best for her. 
Not always simple when you live in an area with so many restrictions.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Also keep in mind that I'm not an educated owner. Before I can train and play all these games, and exercises, I need to learn how to do them. More frustration on my part. I'm having a hard time understanding my goals with Kira. I'm the type of person that needs structured training. Doing this on my own, has been an absolute nightmare for me.

Kira is my first GSD as an adult. It's been a challenge for me.
I've made lots of mistakes, and at times got myself in trouble around here, by unknowingly contributing to her behavior. Those that don't have the knowledge and experience as you do, might think it's OK for their dogs to fight back, or bark at a stranger, etc.... At first, it's easy to think that a dog park is a perfect place for dogs. I can poll 50 dog owners, and I'd get the same answer.... "It was great, until my dog got attacked"
Being so proactive on this board, gave me a bit of an advantage. But sometimes, "I just don't get it"... It's my fault.

Do you know how many times I've started a thread, and said to myself "oh cr*p, why did I bring this up"? 
When you do things, it all seems right.
When you read the thread about it, and see some of the replies, you then realize that just how wrong I was.

Perfect example: "Kira grew a pair". That had to be the most humiliating thread for me. At that time, I thought that a dog that wouldn't take "cr*p from other dogs was the right response. Of course, I've learned otherwise.

If anyone needs a "delete this thread" button, it's me.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Anthony, Don't feel bad. There are probably a lot of people who read your threads and see their own selves doing and thinking the same things. The responses that you receive probably help a lot of people who never even post. 

It is my observation that you are a very involved owner who loves your dog very much and is just trying to figure out the best way to go through life with your furry friend.

Most dogs should be so lucky as Kira.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Anthony, I just moved to Staten Island with my 2.5 year old male gsd. He loves the ladies and is very good with other dogs  maybe we can setup something with Kira? I'm also a member of NY Schutzhund in Uniondale LI and we would love to have you come with Kira one day and watch the training...

PM me, I live by Sand Lane and Father Capodanno Blvd. I don't have a fenced in yard, but I take the dog out to the local woods and play there. 

I don't know, maybe we can set something up and get together - things are a bit hectic what with the move and all but I'm sure we can find a time that works for both.

As far as finding places to tire out the dog - I think a good game of tug is great if you don't have a lot of space. You can play closely with the dog and they don't need as much space as fetching etc. Other than that, I made sure my dog is 100% on recall or down before I did this, but I try to take him to places where other people don't come around as often - woods, empty fields, etc. I try to avoid parks and ball fields because that's where the park police is looking for people with off-leash dogs. I found a nice quiet area in Brooklyn, and also in Staten Island - so when there's a will there's a way 

Plus, if Kira's recall is not 95% or if you worry about getting tickets, how about getting a long drag line (drag lines have no loop at the end) and letting her play with the line on. This way, if park police comes by you can quickly grab the line and when they tell you the law says the leash must be 6' or shorter (which is true) you can play confused and they will surely let it slide


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Anthony, I just moved to Staten Island with my 2.5 year old male gsd. He loves the ladies and is very good with other dogs  maybe we can setup something with Kira? I'm also a member of NY Schutzhund in Uniondale LI and we would love to have you come with Kira one day and watch the training...
> 
> PM me, I live by Sand Lane and Father Capodanno Blvd. I don't have a fenced in yard, but I take the dog out to the local woods and play there.
> 
> I don't know, maybe we can set something up and get together - things are a bit hectic what with the move and all but I'm sure we can find a time that works for both.


:thumbup: This sounds like a great idea!!


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## Courtney (Feb 12, 2010)

onyx'girl said:


> Why do you need to have her play with other dogs?
> It isn't going to build her confidence in the way you think, if anything it could backfire, females tend to be pretty serious if they don't have a bond with the other dogs...even with a bond, there is snarkiness quite often with mature dogs. I have to watch my dogs often so there isn't over the top playing, and they always have a ball in their mouths so they don't bite each other.


Jane, thank you for this comment.

Anthony, your thread header reads "Kira starting to play too rough with her playdates...suggestion?" Mine, is to remove the thought that Kira has doggie friends, that she looks forward to playing with her doggie friends. As an outsider looking in I feel so much tension/stress coming from Kira (not just this thread but your others threads as well).

Back to basics...bonding, being casual with Kira. Walks/hikes exploring together. Laying on the couch/floor petting her while watching a movie. Inviting her when you run errands in the car and on and on.....

Remove outside distractions (other off leash dogs) and let Kira chill out.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Another thing is that, fortunately, there are times you can let your dog off-leash and not get a ticket. Every borough has designated off-leash hours at designated areas: 
Dog Runs and Off Leash hours in NYC

I try to take my dog out to play before 9am for the morning walk. I try to find off-leash hours vs dog runs (I avoid dog runs like the plague) because those will be large areas and I can easily find a quiet spot to play with my dog. I take a risk for the 6pm walk but if you don't want to risk it, I think a good game of fetch frisbee tug or some obedience etc in the morning, followed by some obedience and a nice long walk in the afternoon will satisfy all of Kira's needs


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Any dog that "mouthed" my dog by the throat will be either hit with a stick, kicked with all my strength, or stabbed with my car key.
> 
> Rocky has been bitten in the throat by TWO pitbulls and I had to pay a ton of money for stitches. What did the owners say right before the attacks? "He is just playing" "He just plays rough"
> 
> ...


I agree, I don't take kindly to other folks smiling and telling me that their dog is only "playing" and it is rough. I don't like it and I don't like it when Stella began to act the same way.

Stella does not go to the dog park anymore because of the change in her behavior when she hit the 12month -15 month mark. We did a bunch of obedience training and Shutzhund. Now at almost 19 months she has learned her manners again and she has a small amount of socialization with other dogs while walking and I took her to a doggy friendly restaurant and in the car with my friends 2 chihauhaus and she did fine.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Also keep in mind that I'm not an educated owner. Before I can train and play all these games, and exercises, I need to learn how to do them. More frustration on my part. I'm having a hard time understanding my goals with Kira. I'm the type of person that needs structured training. Doing this on my own, has been an absolute nightmare for me.
> 
> Kira is my first GSD as an adult. It's been a challenge for me.
> I've made lots of mistakes, and at times got myself in trouble around here, by unknowingly contributing to her behavior. Those that don't have the knowledge and experience as you do, might think it's OK for their dogs to fight back, or bark at a stranger, etc.... At first, it's easy to think that a dog park is a perfect place for dogs. I can poll 50 dog owners, and I'd get the same answer.... "It was great, until my dog got attacked"
> ...



LoL...I love that you put yourself out there like that Anthony. I am a novice at dog training too and have learned a lot at my Shutzhund club. I saw you had an offer from a play date from a woman that takes her dog to Shutzhund in NY. If I were you, I would go with her. You can learn basic obedience techniques, tracking, agility, protection. Most of all, you learn that doggy play dates are not really needed.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Stella's Mom said:


> LoL...I love that you put yourself out there like that Anthony. I am a novice at dog training too and have learned a lot at my Shutzhund club. I saw you had an offer from a play date from a woman that takes her dog to Shutzhund in NY. If I were you, I would go with her. You can learn basic obedience techniques, tracking, agility, protection. Most of all, you learn that doggy play dates are not really needed.


Hehe, a man not a woman


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> Hehe, a man not a woman


oooops...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Honestly, it sounds like your leash laws are far more liberal than ours...

We have just always managed to find places that were off the beaten track where nobody would be bothered so nobody really cared. I am always in control, pack up my dog if I start to see folks, and always clean up and have never been harassed about it.

I mean some guy not bothering anybody and playing with his dog is not who they have the time and money to bother with. Now if that dog is being a nuisance....nother issue.


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Hi Anthony!
I'm not sure if anyone suggested it already...have you thought about getting a bike and the attachment? You stated that she loves to run. That would give her lots of exercise.

We have quite a few people that do that here. Just a thought.

 Kat


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony you are gainfully employed , you have a family with three kids , busy man , and then the dog. We never hear what the kids or wife think of the dog or how or if the interact . You would think the kids would help play with the dog or exercise her . So how can you get what you need to have done getting them involved. I think you said one of your kids is a teen? Could one of them take the dog for a jog around the block first thing in the morning . Come home , feeding routine, pop her into the yard for a while and then crate . Afternoon same thing a quick once around the neighbourhood using this walk for rapid fire obedience requests . You would be surprised what 20 minutes can accomplish . Keep throwing the surprises at the dog . Walk fast, walk slow, walk fast , stop. Go round to front of dog , ask for recall, swing to heel , vary directions, about turns, back up and have dog to recall in motion. Ask for bark on command. Downs -- the dog will be mentally stimulated, challenged, happy, rewarded , bond and learn to work with focus under control. Then home little treat, minutes in back yard, Crate.
Before dinner one of the kids could do something. Then when you are ready before the day closes you do something with the dog.
If the rest of the family is not fully on board with having this dog and their interaction with her is loaded with resentment (for the time she is taking up or other..) then that dog , who is on the sensitive side will surely feel it and that will affect her confidence . Dogs like security and belonging but belonging is not pamper and goo and gush one moment and then be annoyed with her the next. 

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Stella's Mom said:


> LoL...*I love that you put yourself out there like that Anthony. * I am a novice at dog training too and have learned a lot at my Shutzhund club. I saw you had an offer from a play date from a woman that takes her dog to Shutzhund in NY. If I were you, I would go with her. You can learn basic obedience techniques, tracking, agility, protection. Most of all, you learn that doggy play dates are not really needed.


Oh, I'm _out there_ at this point. It's all in for me 

Yes, I'm going to make that connection and see what this is all about.

So much to learn, so little brain power.



jocoyn said:


> Honestly, it sounds like your leash laws are far more liberal than ours...
> 
> We have just always managed to find places that were off the beaten track where nobody would be bothered so nobody really cared. I am always in control, pack up my dog if I start to see folks, and always clean up and have never been harassed about it.
> 
> I mean some guy not bothering anybody and playing with his dog is not who they have the time and money to bother with. Now if that dog is being a nuisance....nother issue.


Nancy, not at all. The city is hungry for money, and will do anything to get it. I personally witnessed the park police issue summonses to a group of people that had a few puppies running around in a desolate area. The guy actually snuck through the bushes to catch them red handed.
I sat there and shook my head in disbelief.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> What is this thing that GS need to play with other dogs....especially off leash outside of YOUR pack? I just don't get it....


Can't upvote this enough!



carmspack said:


> Could one of them take the dog for a jog around the block first thing in the morning . Come home , feeding routine, pop her into the yard for a while and then crate . Afternoon same thing a quick once around the neighbourhood using this walk for rapid fire obedience requests . You would be surprised what 20 minutes can accomplish . Keep throwing the surprises at the dog . Walk fast, walk slow, walk fast , stop. Go round to front of dog , ask for recall, swing to heel , vary directions, about turns, back up and have dog to recall in motion. Ask for bark on command. Downs -- the dog will be mentally stimulated, challenged, happy, rewarded , bond and learn to work with focus under control. Then home little treat, minutes in back yard, Crate.
> Before dinner one of the kids could do something. Then when you are ready before the day closes you do something with the dog.
> 
> Dogs like security and belonging but belonging is not pamper and goo and gush one moment and then be annoyed with her the next.
> ...


Very good advice! I had a psychotic BC pup in an apartment for several months. I was able to manage her with this method throughout her troublesome puppyhood. I didn't have anyone to help me and was working/studying 50+hrs a week. This type of mental/physical stimulation WORKS!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony you are gainfully employed , you have a family with three kids , busy man , and then the dog. We never hear what the kids or wife think of the dog or how or if the interact . You would think the kids would help play with the dog or exercise her . So how can you get what you need to have done getting them involved. I think you said one of your kids is a teen? Could one of them take the dog for a jog around the block first thing in the morning . Come home , feeding routine, pop her into the yard for a while and then crate . Afternoon same thing a quick once around the neighbourhood using this walk for rapid fire obedience requests . You would be surprised what 20 minutes can accomplish . Keep throwing the surprises at the dog . *Walk fast, walk slow, walk fast , stop. Go round to front of dog , ask for recall, swing to heel , vary directions, about turns, back up and have dog to recall in motion. Ask for bark on command. Downs -- the dog will be mentally stimulated, challenged, happy, rewarded , bond and learn to work with focus under control. * Then home little treat, minutes in back yard, Crate.
> Before dinner one of the kids could do something. Then when you are ready before the day closes you do something with the dog.
> If the rest of the family is not fully on board with having this dog and their interaction with her is loaded with resentment (for the time she is taking up or other..) then that dog , who is on the sensitive side will surely feel it and that will affect her confidence . Dogs like security and belonging but belonging is not pamper and goo and gush one moment and then be annoyed with her the next.
> 
> ...


Carmen, this has also been a challenge. My kids sadly have no interest in Kira's needs. They sit with her, pet her, say they love her, but REFUSE to get involved. I gave up on them. Big disappointment.
I believe I had a thread about this months ago, when I started obedience school. Everybody was rearing to go, then it all fell on me.
The teenager in my house is useless. If she's not sleeping, she's with her friends. College starts next week for her, so it makes no sense harping on her. My 13 year old couldn't care less. She hates doing anything with Kira. Hate to be so blunt, but I'm being honest.
My 8 year old is the only one that takes an interest. I allow her to walk with her, and play fetch games. We also have a Maltese, and she favors the Maltese. She likes to snuggle with her.
My wife does a good job with Kira. She walks her, and does a light jog with her a few days a week. SHe also takes her spare time, and always goes through the paces with Kira. I can't say anything bad about her, other than her desire to throw Kira into the dog park. I refuse to allow that, and we butt heads about that on a regular basis.

All of the above does not mean that she's not wanted. It's just that nobody wants to put effort into giving the dog her needed stimulation. She gets lots of love and affection, but nobody wants to do the work.
I do the best I can, but I have to juggle my schedule constantly. It's even taken it's toll on my business.
This whole scene is going full circle, trust me.

Yes, the bolded above is excellent advice. Thank you. I'm printing that and taking it with me.

SO... Now that you've gotten to know me better, it would only be fitting for me to apologize to those I may have gotten "snippy" with. I have my hands full. I'm frustrated, and completely stressed out. I haven't been myself, and people around me have noticed.


I went to the doctor yesterday, and my BP was an alarming 170/110. 
Need I say any more?


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

The methods that Carmen has suggested has really worked wonders for me and Stella.
She was becoming a bit of a brat so we did a lot of obedience drills.

One of my favorites is the platz/sitz platz/sitz about 10 times in a row just to make sure she is listening. 

I figured when my husband used to discipline the boys if they misbehaved in a restaurant or some other place he would make them do leg squats and push ups when we came home. It worked for the boys...it works for the dog!


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Oh, I'm _out there_ at this point. It's all in for me
> 
> Yes, I'm going to make that connection and see what this is all about.
> 
> ...


That is a real problem, in NYC as I can't speak for other places. They really do hide in the bushes. The regular Police department have their hands full and cannot be bothered catching people with dogs off leash. In fact, one PO told me that if he was to give a summons for a dog being off leash his supervisor might just want to know what he was doing out in the park rather than patrolling. 

But, this being a big city, we have a parks police department and those guys do have quotas to fill and plenty of time on their hands. I've seen them pop out of bushes first-hand. I've seen them wait at off-leash areas from 8:30AM until 9:15AM and catch people as they leave the park if they saw their dog off-leash after 9AM. It's quite ridiculous. Some of them are reasonable though and if they see you doing off-leash OB and stuff sometimes they actually come by to ask questions out of interest. But off leash dogs will get their owner a summons in public parks. The woods are a different story, but they are not fenced in so many dog owners I know will not take that chance (and they shouldn't, given their dog's recall  )


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Stella's Mom said:


> The methods that Carmen has suggested has really worked wonders for me and Stella.
> She was becoming a bit of a brat so we did a lot of obedience drills.
> 
> One of my favorites is the platz/sitz platz/sitz about 10 times in a row just to make sure she is listening.
> ...


Ha ha! Honestly, I do this same thing. I laughed when I read the platz/sit thing, buecause when Rocket wants to act putzy, or slow on his response, I do this EXACT same thing. Just to remind him I'M the adult in charge, not he. 

Anthony, I don't have as much time to spend on here anymore until my job is done for the year, but you and I are alike in some ways, and my advice (heh) would be to carefully consider some of the excellent posts here, and do what I'm trying to do: don't overthink it.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

YOUR needs are more important than Kira's
170/110 is pretty high. I hope you are also seeing a cardiologist for a check up!

My husband has had two small heart attacks, nothing to mess with, and his prompt attention to issues most men would deny, saved him from any detectable heart damage, but it is scary stuff. 

Technically some walks, some attention, some balls in the backyard. 
Long walks are better for you anyway then and really help with stress.

Maybe you and Kira can share a treadmill. Instead of the dog park just go for some 4-6 mile long walks (with a doctors blessing of course)

Having teenage daughters is stressful enough.


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## Stella's Mom (Mar 8, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Ha ha! Honestly, I do this same thing. I laughed when I read the platz/sit thing, buecause when Rocket wants to act putzy, or slow on his response, I do this EXACT same thing. Just to remind him I'M the adult in charge, not he.
> 
> Anthony, I don't have as much time to spend on here anymore until my job is done for the year, but you and I are alike in some ways, and my advice (heh) would be to carefully consider some of the excellent posts here, and do what I'm trying to do: don't overthink it.



Hehe he


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> YOUR needs are more important than Kira's
> 170/110 is pretty high.* I hope you are also seeing a cardiologist for a check up!*
> 
> My husband has had two small heart attacks, nothing to mess with, and his prompt attention to issues most men would deny, saved him from any detectable heart damage, but it is scary stuff.
> ...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Having cared for a mother in law after her stroke, a dying father, and a mother who is with us having had a stroke while having raised teenagers ...............and holding down a full time job......

(one daughter wound up pregnant at 19, and we are thankful that she and the boy actually were/are in love and just celebrated 10 years of marriage and we have two loveley grandaughters..but she dropped out of college, is without clear career goals and is pushing 30...and he is a teacher making that whopping teacher's salary).....(the other who is 27, has an MS, a good job as a researcher in DC for a temp position, but wants to get her PhD now so she will be broke for the forseeable future) -- and by then two grandaughters to help get through college (hopefully with scholaraships!)

*The stress ends when they shove you in the oven or put you in the ground.*

*You cannot take care of anyone else's needs unless you take care of your own first.* 

Do what the cardio guy says. And if it is walk walk walk walk DO IT! The dog will adapt. She just wants to be with you.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

Anthony8858 - Sorry to read you are so stressed out. If you are not doing this already, get a automatic BP cuff for home use. My father and I have white coat disease - our BP soars at the doctors office. One time I went and it was 167/90. At home I check my BP on a regular basis and it's usually under 120/70. So check it at home and look for patterns when it increases/decreases.

Are there any really peaceful, dog friendly areas for a day trip you and your family might enjoy? I have not been to the East Coast for a while, but remember that Fire Island allowed no cars, it was quiet, and Cape May beyond all the boardwalk activity was so nice. My friend and I found a beach there with nobody on it and were able to bring my dog and sunbath like they do in the south of France.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Having cared for a mother in law after her stroke, a dying father, and a mother who is with us having had a stroke while having raised teenagers ...............and holding down a full time job......
> 
> (one daughter wound up pregnant at 19, and we are thankful that she and the boy actually were/are in love and just celebrated 10 years of marriage and we have two loveley grandaughters..but she dropped out of college, is without clear career goals and is pushing 30...and he is a teacher making that whopping teacher's salary).....(the other who is 27, has an MS, a good job as a researcher in DC for a temp position, but wants to get her PhD now so she will be broke for the forseeable future) -- and by then two grandaughters to help get through college (hopefully with scholaraships!)
> 
> ...


Yes, all so true.

The irony of all this, is that a good walk with Kira would do both of us good 



Gretchen said:


> Anthony8858 - Sorry to read you are so stressed out. If you are not doing this already, get a automatic BP cuff for home use. My father and I have white coat disease - our BP soars at the doctors office. One time I went and it was 167/90. At home I check my BP on a regular basis and it's usually under 120/70. So check it at home and look for patterns when it increases/decreases.
> 
> Are there any really peaceful, dog friendly areas for a day trip you and your family might enjoy? I have not been to the East Coast for a while, but remember that Fire Island allowed no cars, it was quiet, and Cape May beyond all the boardwalk activity was so nice. My friend and I found a beach there with nobody on it and were able to bring my dog and sunbath like they do in the south of France.


Lots of factors contributing. I don't doubt the high BP


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Anthony, I would be mess if it were not for my JogADog.
What with moving and everything I have to do and it being sunny and 95 here when I can exercise Hans, it sure is nice to have it.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I've been watching your threads as you post them, but I don't think I have ever commented.

I have to say, good for you for putting yourself out there - I mean REALLY out there. Kind of like setting yourself up on the line of fire, especially with that "Kira grew a pair" thread. I understand it was likely humiliating, but I'm sure it was also humbling. We all started somewhere, and you are doing everything right by asking for advice and taking it from experienced people. Don't ever feel embarrassed or bad for that.

Kira obviously has some issues, but I really believe it can be remedied with hard work. Everyone has given some great advice. I strongly recommend obedience/training, routine, a lot of exercise, and new rules. I do not allow my dog to play rough with other dogs (unless it's Zefra, of course...), once in a blue moon when he actually plays with strange dogs. I don't do dog parks - it goes against a dog's instinctual nature and causes issues between dogs. You should not allow the neck biting behaviour, it's potentially dangerous for all involved and you could get in trouble with the other owners.

Like many others have said, she doesn't *need* to play with many different dogs in a dog park setting. Not at all. 

I recommend biking with her daily - low impact on you, excellent draining of energy for her. 

I also recommend obedience + play. Frisbee can be a great opportunity to work her mind. Have her preform obedience commands or tricks before you throw the frisbee/ball/whatever. 

I second Carmen - add obedience into the walk. 

Hike with her, expose her to the natural world safety without the presence of strange dogs. Let her smell, throw some obedience training in, let her run and jump over fallen trees, let her express herself and be a dog.

Don't make excuses for bad behaviour. Training, discipline, reward, exercise, behavioural modification.

Take good care of yourself, or else you can't take care of anyone or anything else.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

A treadmill, a bicycle attachment, or someone who likes to jog could do wonders. I used to run my dog beside my bicycle--she LOVED it, would pull me at top speed for about half a mile before settling into a good pace. At the end of the ride she'd be nice and tired, and had no problem being relaxed in the house.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Wild Wolf said:


> I've been watching your threads as you post them, but I don't think I have ever commented.
> 
> I have to say, good for you for putting yourself out there - I mean REALLY out there. Kind of like setting yourself up on the line of fire, especially with that "Kira grew a pair" thread. I understand it was likely humiliating, but I'm sure it was also humbling. We all started somewhere, and you are doing everything right by asking for advice and taking it from experienced people. Don't ever feel embarrassed or bad for that.
> 
> ...


 
This is a very nice post
Thank you.

I don't have a problem putting myself out there. If I didn't, who am I kidding, besides myself?

I agree with the neck biting too. I didn't like it when I saw it, BUT may not have thought anything about it, if I didn't throw myself out there 

This is all good.

For the good posters, as well as the critical ones, I do not take offense to the comments. If anything, I welcome them.

All is well.

I like Carmen's advice too.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> A treadmill, a bicycle attachment, or someone who likes to jog could do wonders. I used to run my dog beside my bicycle--she LOVED it, would pull me at top speed for about half a mile before settling into a good pace. At the end of the ride she'd be nice and tired, and had no problem being relaxed in the house.


 
Bicycle attachment? You're OK with this? I didn't think anyone would be.

I love to ride. I have some nice, flat grass terrain nearby. I could take her there.

Give me a description of how you go about doing this?

Are you talking about using one of those side attachments?
Or winging it with a leash?


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## Midnight12 (Jan 6, 2012)

I had 6 kids and eveyone wanted a dog when I got my first gsd, but I got her cuz I wanted a dog. I knew in the end who would care for and walk the dog, and thats ok, they all loved her but teens are too in to themselves' My dog gave me great pleasure and helped me destress, and i think yours can too. The walks can be good for both of you. My kids are all grown and gone now, well not living in my house lol,they are never really gone lol and so are all the stress that comes with family but my dog helps with that. My last girl passed away in dec and I got a rescue 2 yr old female. The people who had her said she stressed out their little dog and did'nt want her anymore, so the rescue that had thought she would be better in a home without little dogs and I wanted an only dog' She is a grest dog and loves people, which is important to me with kids and grandkids. We are still do training and when she gets a chance to be around the other dogs and play she is quite pushey and so I am not letting her play with other dogs and I don't think it even matters as long as she gets walks and works with me. Just accept your dog for who she is and spend time doing things you both enjoy that does'nt cause either one of you stress. And the kids, well there will come a day when your house won't be crazy all the time and you will miss it


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anthony, I did not read the whole thread, but I have to ask, do you have an automobile? Sometimes, we have to go farther away where things aren't so crowded to find an area where no one will have a hissy if we are working with our dog. Places that might work are state parks, county property like hunting areas (off season), school property like some county vocational schools have a deal of property that is not actual sport fields, and county fair grounds. 

Frankly, I don't really think dogs need to run off lead all that much. The idea of biking with her is excellent. Find a deserted parking lot, late at night and get her used to the bike first. I only bike with my dogs when it is late at night, and very little traffic of any sort. There are bicycle attachments, but I just use a leash, and teach them to run alongside as though they were heeling and when I stop, they sit.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Just wanted to add...this is the problem with Schutzhund, as much as I've seen it do wonders for dogs with lots of drive and also dogs with misplaced energy, it is just not available enough for many people to do. I'd love to do it, but right now my limit is about a 30 minute drive to training, anything more and it becomes a half day/full day thing and at that point unless you are 100% dedicated there will be many days that I wouldn't make it due to other commitments that will come up.

The AKC stuff in my opinion can be just as good. I just went to my first agility trial...that is a blast and it will give her a lot of confidence. I'm going to start training in that soon. But AKC obedience and rally will also give her a lot of things to do. If you're competitive, you can really get into it and realize its more than just creating a well-behaved pet then you will really give yourself a goal. Did the place you trained at before have any UD or UDX dogs? That is my goal one day, I can't do Schutzhund III, but I can for sure get a UDX.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

My dog does not get a lot of off leash play, except for my rather small backyard. I used to go to the baseball diamonds, which are totally fenced, but I've heard that I could get ticketed there. If I'm working on controlled recall exercises I'm sure I can talk my way out of one and promise never to do it again.

Don't do the dog parks anymore, and we have no doggy friends. 

I do bike with her about 3-4 km 3-5 times a week around my subdivsion. Even take her on the rail trails. I keep my speed between 10 - 14 km/hour and she trotts. Every once in a while she will run, but I think that is harder on her paws as we are on pavement.

I do use a springer bike attachment and it works well for us.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

selzer said:


> Anthony, I did not read the whole thread, but I have to ask, do you have an automobile? Sometimes, we have to go farther away where things aren't so crowded to find an area where no one will have a hissy if we are working with our dog. Places that might work are state parks, county property like hunting areas (off season), school property like some county vocational schools have a deal of property that is not actual sport fields, and county fair grounds.
> 
> Frankly, I don't really think dogs need to run off lead all that much. The idea of biking with her is excellent. Find a deserted parking lot, late at night and get her used to the bike first. I only bike with my dogs when it is late at night, and very little traffic of any sort. There are bicycle attachments, but I just use a leash, and teach them to run alongside as though they were heeling and when I stop, they sit.


I take Kira everywhere. She loves to go for rides. I've searched high and low for areas within 10-20 miles, and all have the same rules and issues. If there's open land, there's either a dog park, or a cop 

Keep in mind, I take her out very night after work. The last thing I want to do, is take a long ride. I'm hungry, I'm tired, and I have children that need to be tended to.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Treadmill. Really. 
Today I actually sat next to Hans as he walked , and I did IPhone things. I had some me time, he got exercise, and we were both happy.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am interested in the treadmill as well and maybe that would be a good thread to create (hint hint) there's treadmills (aerobic), carpet and slat mills (typically strength anaerobic) but I think they can also be aerobic.

I have heard stride length can be the biggest issue with our dogs as they are built to stretch out and need at least 6 feet.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anthony8858 said:


> I take Kira everywhere. She loves to go for rides. I've searched high and low for areas within 10-20 miles, and all have the same rules and issues. If there's open land, there's either a dog park, or a cop
> 
> Keep in mind, I take her out very night after work. The last thing I want to do, is take a long ride. I'm hungry, I'm tired, and I have children that need to be tended to.


Well, take her for a walk on lead after work, and take her somewhere farther on Saturday or Sunday. Take one of your kids with you. Teach them to walk and train the dog. Afterwards, buy the kid an ice cream cone. There. bonding time one-on-one with Dad/Daughter and the dog gets a play date where she is not mauled and doesn't maul anyone else. 

The dog does NOT need to run around with other dogs to be happy. 

My parents had six kids. We walked the dog. The dog never went anywhere, unless we walked her. But that was a different time and place. My dad did take us fishing. One at a time. We took turns who got to go fishing with Dad. We caught night crawlers, and then Dad would take us fishing. And after we had our hands filthy, wormy, dirt, fish-water, fish scales, and possibly a trip to an outhouse with no running water, he would buy us an ice-cream cone. Mom NEVER did anything so exciting with us, never one-on-one. I just watched Samantha, the seven year old -- probably ten or twelve now, but I watched her run through a schutzhund competition with her dog on u-tube. I thought, well gee, her parents must really be dog people. I would have loved my parents to have worked with the dog with me. Maybe one of your daughters would really enjoy this. Or, maybe Kira would like to go fishing?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony look after your health.

I am going to recommend this book HIGHLY recommend it







Amazon.com: Reversing Hypertension: A Vital New Program to Prevent, Treat, and Reduce High Blood Pressure (9780446676632): Julian Whitaker: Books

Dr Julian Whitaker , I can attest to this working . 

more magnesium in diet -- 
even soaking in epsom salt bath your skin can absorb the magnesium
Anthony, celery and bananas are going to be your new best friends .
massage ! 
hawthorn berry (or extract) - juice , powder capsules
hibiscus tea
co-enzyme Q 
fish oil , omega 3 ,
l-taurine
garlic , onions , 
yoga 

the dog , yes a treadmill is great . I have a carpet treadmill , but yes to Jocoyn's comment , a common problem is that the mat is too short for a grown GSD. I use mine for the young guys , when we are shut in with snow . The contraption is in the barn - the young guys race in , get pushy with each other to get on .


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

is this what you mean about Kira grabbing other dogs necks?










this is my old foster dog Addie that i had playing with Rufus.. if it was any of my other dogs this wouldnt have been tolerated and she would have been severly hurt/killed if she tried this with my last gsd or my rottx..

when you notice your dogs play style change its time to stop the playdates.... its better to stop now then to think oh one more time wont hurt and have something bad happen... you see her play style is changing, you see how she is continuing to go after other dogs repeatedly doing this throat hold... now that you see how she is playing its time for no more play dates... dogs dont need play dates, they just need to learn to behave in public when other dogs are around... some dogs love playdates, some dont, each dog is an individual with individual temperments... 

both my dogs are only allowed to play with each other, and 2 "dog friends" only that they play nice with. my 10 yr old dog doesnt play nice with other dogs anymore, that changed when he turned 6.. now he will fake wanting to play to just get the other dog closer so he can take a bite... liar that he is lol... my 2 yr old plays with appropriate dog friends (2) that have the same playstyle as hers. 

i live in a apt with my 2 dogs, and i take mine for walks before work and after work and we go all different ways on our walk (good mental stimulation) plus we practice sit, down, heel on the walks too and rotate between slow walk/jog/fast walk and i am always mixing it up.. we see other dogs along the route, sometimes we stop to talk, and the dogs are not allowed to greet the other dogs.. its owner time for socializing at that point lol.. then we go on our way... you can take kira for walks (i work full time too) and take your children with you on the walks so you can do both walk the dog and see the children at the same time (multi task lol)..

you can also look for agility or rally classes which are usually one night a week for an hour for 7 weeks to work kira's mind.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Bailey used to have a thing with putting my Shiba's *head* in his mouth. And yes, it mostly fit in there! The Shiba never fussed, there was never a mark. No squeals. Bigger deal to me than to either one of them.

He and his brother (same litter) play very, very hard. Necks, legs, whatever is up for grabs. Up on back legs to chew on each others faces. They're both hard playing dogs. At first I was a wreck, it scared me. Now, months later, I know what is play and what is not. Fighting looks *nothing* like playing BUT I have the benefit of studying them -- which you don't have to this extent on playdates.

I quit going to the dogpark when Bails was around 10 months for several reasons. A dog there I didn't like, but also because Bails was one of the few intact males and this got more attention than I liked from the neutered crowd.  (It was odd - there were several neutered & a couple intact males that went after him for nothing. He was literally standing there only. No problems with females.) Anyway... I quit going. I felt that by ten months, he'd gotten the benefit of early dog socializing and now he lives with three dogs and a cat, so no more need for the dog park really.

I really have wanted a dog-friendly dog because I don't like the idea of having to worry about my dog attacking another. I'd like to be able to take him here or there and not have problems with a friend's dog, etc. I have what I want in that regard, but I no longer feel I need to test that as he's in adolescence. I may try again once he is neutered and a little older. We'll see.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

mebully21 said:


> is this what you mean about Kira grabbing other dogs necks?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Below is a video from maybe two weeks ago. I didn't think too much of her actions back then.
When I saw this again, I felt that it was, indeed time to stop her playdates. I knew this could escalate.
I believe I made it very clear throughout this thread.

Take a look at .43. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Nahhh that's nothin.  Seriously, my dogs play so much harder than this. That white dog was on his/her back because it wanted to be, IMHO. 

Curious to see what others think, but I see that as nothing more than good happy dog play.

Here's "normal" for my hooligans: (Note there are neck grabs, rollovers on both dogs' parts, teeth flashing == and this is PLAY! )


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Anthony8858 said:


> Are you talking about using one of those side attachments?
> Or winging it with a leash?


Actually, I just used a leash and flat collar, I didn't have any kind of attachment or anything. I looped the leash around the handlebar stem (NOT the handlebars) and made sure it was the right length--short enough that the dog couldn't run in front of the bike, long enough that she had decent freedom of movement. Nowadays they have all kind of attachments, but I found that I didn't need one. It's a good idea to make sure your dog likes cycling before spending a bunch of money on accessories. I had one dog that never did like it. She would do it, but wasn't gung-ho about it like the others.

It helps if the dog has some obedience first. I'd hook the dog up to the bike--on the right side rather than the left, that way she wouldn't be on the same side as the traffic. We'd start out going slow and easy, in a large, safe, open area like an empty parking lot. Big circles in both directions, with a command for left and right turns, a "wait" command, a "stop" command, and a "go" command. It didn't take them long to figure out the physical logistics. My first dog learned very quickly not to chase a squirrel that was across the street--or anything else, for that matter--as the first time she tried to do it, she ran into the front tire, and I crash landed on TOP of her. Thankfully we were both unhurt, but it must have made an impression on her, as she never did it again. 

In fact, my first dog was quite amazing on the bicycle. If I said "Wanna go for a run beside the bike?" She'd start whining and run to the bicycle, jumping up and down, get herself all riled up and then all that energy would just explode into pulling me at top speed. Heck, I hardly had to pedal for the first several blocks. It was sort of like riding a motorcycle.  And that was just using a flat collar!

We used to go off-road, too, where she'd run off-leash. She would go and go and go, usually leading the way.

Of course, you have to work up to that level slowly.

Here is an old photo of us, probably around 1991.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

chelle said:


> Nahhh that's nothin.  Seriously, my dogs play so much harder than this. That white dog was on his/her back because it wanted to be, IMHO.
> 
> Curious to see what others think, but I see that as nothing more than good happy dog play.


I completely agree. This is nothing compared to my two when they get playing. I see two happy dogs playing


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Below is a video from maybe two weeks ago. I didn't think too much of her actions back then.
> When I saw this again, I felt that it was, indeed time to stop her playdates. I knew this could escalate.



Except for that one time where she held the other dog down a few seconds longer than other times,(did you call her off then?) I didn't see anything that looked bad. (and I tend to be over cautious ) Wish you had left the sound on there.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I think that looks pretty normal for playtime. My dogs also play like that, maybe even rougher. Both dogs in this video look like they are having a blast


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

her play is normal. however, TAKE THE PRONG collar off when she plays (if she is wearing a prong collar- if its a fur saver collar then you are ok)

i see normal gsd play, mine play way rougher then that, with snarling and barking (yours had music so i couldnt hear any dogs) both dogs were having fun playing in the video


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

mebully21 said:


> her play is normal. however, *TAKE THE PRONG* collar off when she plays (if she is wearing a prong collar- if its a fur saver collar then you are ok)
> 
> i see normal gsd play, mine play way rougher then that, with snarling and barking (yours had music so i couldnt hear any dogs) both dogs were having fun playing in the video


Yes, the prong was taken off.

This video was a couple weeks ago. I considered her play normal, and fun for both dogs.
I became concerned yesterday, when she became so fixated on the throat hold, that the owner of the other dog became irritated by her actions. You're gonna have to take my word on this one... She was relentless, and kept going after this dog's throat. I kept correcting her, and she kept wanting it more. 
Kira is normally very manageable, but she was out of control. She was driven by this, and I became concerned.


Carmen,
I took Kira for a walk tonight. I put her through her heel exercises, and did multiple stops, sits, stays, and downs. I had a nice walk with her 
She's a good girl  My biggest fan


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

when dogs play they grab each other by the throat. when the dog
that's being grabbed doesn't want it any more he or she will let
Kira know. it doesn't hurt to intervene.


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## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

Looks normal to me. Stella plays aggressively with lots of flashing teeth, roll overs and body bumping. It took a while to get used to this type of play....my other dogs were not quite so physical.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

These are my dogs playing normally. Penny (Pit) spends most of her playtime on her back.

Rough Play - YouTube


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Gator,

Your dogs are adorable.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Big difference in dogs playing who are part of same pack, and older dogs playing from different packs. One I do all the time, the other I never do.


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## nitemares (Dec 15, 2005)

Looks like normal GSD play to me. I was boarding a small dog recently and Dumpty would grab her by the throat, when she wanted enough she let him know and she's 10X smaller than him LOL


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

The video is great - two dogs having some fun. But I know it's the latest incident that has you worried. Was this problem with the same dog? 

I'm another person biking with my dog. I can't really tire him out with it yet, because of his age, but it is a good release of some energy. He comes home and then wants to play with his flirt pole, lol. The flirt pole has worked wonders for us. Do you have one?

ETA: at one point in my life, I used to go to an industrial area late at night and lob tennis balls against the building for some fun - not sure if that's something you might want to try?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" that the owner of the other dog became irritated by her actions." this is key to the discussion. 
Anthony just wants some quiet enjoyment of his dog , without more drama or stress . Injuries can and do happen . Dogs wearing collars , as they certainly should, can get a jaw in under the collar and then the dog does a twist, panics and does another twist and the dog on top can't extricate himself and the dog on the bottom is starting to loose air. I had to get into one of these situations while power walking along a trail with a bunch of friends out for a gab , walk, and coffee. Luckily I had no dog with me to complicate things. It was scary to see the colour of the "trapped" dogs eyes change, become pale wall-eyed . This was all fun , no aggressions or hostility , a true accident.
Link collar a canine tooth could get damaged if it got caught in one of the links.
Smaller dogs - damage to trachea .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah...it has nothing to do with that play or how she can play. It's got everything to do with how you make the other owner feel. I know I don't want to be the reason why people stop coming to the dog park. I don't want to be the owner of "that" dog that makes everyone feel uncomfortable and wants to avoid. I don't want to be the owner that every single dog park thread talks about because I'm so selfish that I want my dog to have a good time but I don't care about the others.

Biggest problem with play...it can do a complete 180 in seconds. The other dog can very quickly decide that something is wrong and it has to change the balance. It's different in dogs that know each other, that are part of the same pack. Those dogs are so used to this kind of stuff that you can trust them in play situations (I have a couple dogs like that which are owned by friends who would completely understand if there was barking/growling/fighting and we would just chalk it up to a disagreement that day).

Its interesting that when Anthony was posting about how Kira was getting pinned by her neck everyone was so against it and saying how bad the other dog was. But now that Kira is doing it, people are calling it play and it isn't an issue. Back then...it was going to ruin the dog that was getting pinned, now its nothing but play. Not sure if some of us are just blindly biased towards thread members or GSDs but it is quite an interesting observation.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

martemchik said:


> Its interesting that when Anthony was posting about how Kira was getting pinned by her neck everyone was so against it and saying how bad the other dog was. But now that Kira is doing it, people are calling it play and it isn't an issue. Back then...it was going to ruin the dog that was getting pinned, now its nothing but play. Not sure if some of us are just blindly biased towards thread members or GSDs but it is quite an interesting observation.


I think the difference, if I remember correctly, was that the dog that pinned Kira WASN'T playing--it was an adult dog aggressively going after a young puppy.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I think the difference, if I remember correctly, was that the dog that pinned Kira WASN'T playing--it was an adult dog aggressively going after a young puppy.


That's correct.
Kira was grabbed by her throat as a pup, and shaken numerous times. We she broke free, the dog grabbed her again, and had her by her throat. The other dog was very vocal, and had gotten everyone's attention. It was scary for sure.


The other day, Kira was playing with an 11 month lab. She was grabbing him by his throat, and attempting to drag him. THAT"S what caught my attention, and elevated the concern.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> " that the owner of the other dog became irritated by her actions." this is key to the discussion.
> Anthony just wants some quiet enjoyment of his dog , without more drama or stress . Injuries can and do happen . Dogs wearing collars , as they certainly should, can get a jaw in under the collar and then the dog does a twist, panics and does another twist and the dog on top can't extricate himself and the dog on the bottom is starting to loose air. I had to get into one of these situations while power walking along a trail with a bunch of friends out for a gab , walk, and coffee. Luckily I had no dog with me to complicate things. It was scary to see the colour of the "trapped" dogs eyes change, become pale wall-eyed . This was all fun , no aggressions or hostility , a true accident.
> Link collar a canine tooth could get damaged if it got caught in one of the links.
> Smaller dogs - damage to trachea .
> ...


Couldn't have said it better myself.
Thank you.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

cliffson1 said:


> Big difference in dogs playing who are part of same pack, and older dogs playing from different packs. One I do all the time, the other I never do.


agree :thumbup:


> I took Kira for a walk tonight. I put her through her heel exercises, and did multiple stops, sits, stays, and downs. I had a nice walk with her
> _She's a good girl My biggest fan_


^This is such a sweet post!^

I would try tracking with her....you build up your bond and learn so much about your dog while quietly tracking. And it really does work the mental side, which in turns wears out the physical. Is there anyplace you can track Kira?


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

carmspack said:


> Anthony in this thread you say you have to rely on the dog blowing her energy in the dog park because you live in the city and can't find open fields , but in the last thread , you know the hot potato Kira with escalating aggression you said "I took her to an open field, and played frisbee (her favorite) for over an hour."
> 
> So you do have access to open field.
> 
> ...





onyx'girl said:


> agree :thumbup:
> 
> 
> ^This is such a sweet post!^
> ...


Tracking is something I haven't done with her. I'd like to learn more.

If there's a way to keep it simple, and set up in an open field rather easily, feel free to make suggestions.

I play a game I call "find it". I'll put her in a stay, and set up cardboard boxes, flower pots, anything that could hide her ball.
I' would place it (with her back away from me), and ask her to "find it".
She loves that game.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If she is a kibble eater, use her meal for tracking. You can buy tracking flags cheap at any bigbox hardware(surveyors flags) 

Lay a 'scentbox'(3 of them) to begin, pull her off while she's still searching to keep her wanting more the first few times. Then do footstep to footstep tracks(100 paces) with kibble in the footsteps. Eventually add serpentines(S's) and corners/articles. There are many links on tracking, it is fun~ if she is food motivated~ much better!
Here is a site that has some info(SchH style) 
Schutzhund Village
others may have suggestions for AKC style tracking


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> If she is a kibble eater, use her meal for tracking. You can buy tracking flags cheap at any bigbox hardware(surveyors flags)
> 
> Lay a 'scentbox'(3 of them) to begin, pull her off while she's still searching to keep her wanting more the first few times. Then do footstep to footstep tracks(100 paces) with kibble in the footsteps. Eventually add serpentines(S's) and corners/articles. There are many links on tracking, it is fun~ if she is food motivated~ much better!
> Here is a site that has some info(SchH style)
> ...


Kibble won't work.

How about a higher value? Hot dogs? Beef, chicken pieces?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony dried liver -- or something dogs go crazy for dried salmon skins . You can get them at your local pet shop , and you only need a sliver .
reward dog with tug using an orbee ball on a rope . It has good jaw crunch - lasts "forever" . This connects you to the dog . Good interaction . Dog gets physical and mental work out , not too hard on you

here is one site for Orbee on a string http://leerburg.com/788.htm - see it even floats . Leerburg is not the only vendor of orbees.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I really don't like the planets on that ball; they come off.

But the same company (Planet Dog) makes a Diamond Plate ball that floats and has held up well-AND-it will also fit a large chuckit. The holes in the ball are two sizes so you can easily fit it with a peice of 6 or 7mm climbing accesssory cord. 

The orange ball is uglier but my understanding (and observation) is that dogs do not visually see orange on a green surface and use their nose. Also the orange ball is a whole lot easier for you to see on the water.

PlanetDog.com: Buy the Planet Dog Orbee-Tuff® Diamond Plate Ball - 5 out of 5 Chompers


Saw a neat tracking tip the police use here at the START of trailing training - they start tracking at the very beginning to get the dog to keep the nose down and pull into the harness. They put a can of cat food in panty hose and use it instead of food drops. Just mash on it a little...drag it through the start and corners, and every few feet. They tie it to a leash so you don't even have to bend down just lower and mash....AKC style tracking is great fun.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I have a feeling Kira will LOVE tracking.

I say this because we play a similar game of "hide and seek", where I'll hide something in my back yard, and ask her to "find it". She'll sniff everywhere, until she gets a scent of the object. she then retrieves it to my feet.

I like this tracking game, and my property might be big enough to get started.

I'll do some more reading.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I can help you with starting kira on tracking Anthony, we can start her on scent pads (just a big square where she learns to discriminate between disturbed and undisturbed ground) and move on to some basic tracks... Like I said, just let me know.

Dogs love it, its very relaxing (if u do it right) while challenging the dog's mind and hunt drive and bringing them to focus. We don't have to make it too strict or official, but just let Kira have fun with it


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

my dog does this to her husky best friend 

the husky loves it they are really close she would never hurt her


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Any dog that "mouthed" my dog by the throat will be either hit with a stick, kicked with all my strength, or stabbed with my car key.
> 
> Rocky has been bitten in the throat by TWO pitbulls and I had to pay a ton of money for stitches. What did the owners say right before the attacks? "He is just playing" "He just plays rough"
> 
> ...


wow you need to learn how to act before someone beats the crap out of you for attacking their dog. Stabbing 2 dogs playing with car keys? lol I dont think so.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

ayoitzrimz said:


> I can help you with starting kira on tracking Anthony, we can start her on scent pads (just a big square where she learns to discriminate between disturbed and undisturbed ground) and move on to some basic tracks... Like I said, just let me know.
> 
> Dogs love it, its very relaxing (if u do it right) while challenging the dog's mind and hunt drive and bringing them to focus. We don't have to make it too strict or official, but just let Kira have fun with it


I've decided to take you up on your offers.

Kira is down for a couple weeks, but in September, I'd like to join you to your Shutzhund group in Uniondale.

In the meantime, you're only 10 minutes away from me. I'd like to meet you, and say hello.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anthony that is the best news yet .


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Is 14 months too late to introduce her?
I see many pups at 6 months already advancing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Anthony8858 said:


> Is 14 months too late to introduce her?
> I see many pups at 6 months already advancing.


Goodness no! Glad to hear you have some knowledgeable folks to work with and befriend!


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

I just made the phone call to the Shutzhund club.
Membership was reasonable, and the person I spoke to was very welcoming (for better words)

We agreed to have her evaluated in 3 weeks (because of her stitches), and go from there.

The club is only 35 minutes away, and I'd be able to attend Thursday Eves and Sunday mornings.
They have indoor and outdoor facilities.

Knowing Kira, I hope she gets a good evaluation.
I know she's brilliant, but I'm not sure what they're looking for.

I'll contact the other member here, and coordinate something together.

Funny.... with all the crapola I'm going through, I always manage to find time and energy for this little girl


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