# Please help me understand



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Tonight I've taken Anton to his first CGC class, and I kind of have some mixed feelings about it. I would like to ask your opinion on the situation that arised at some point during the class and that I witnessed. 

We were working on sits, downs, stays and suddenly I hear this growling and then turn around and see a dog, GSD mix, on the floor on her back, with her tail on his belly and held by the trainer there. 

Then the dog was on her side, panting, with her swallen tongue hanging on the side of the mouth and the instructor held her there at the neck. It surely looked to me as an alpha roll, and it looked bad. But the instructor explained after the incident that she didn't use any power to keep the dog down, just kept her fingers on the dog's fur on her throat and she had to do it because the dog mouthed every time the owner was touching his collar and throwing herself on the ground. She said that she against alpha rolls and it wasn't any pinning. 

Do you think it's possible to hold a dog by gentle touch on the ground and the dog shows the symptoms of big distress? I hope it is possible and I'm just overreacting. I had very bad experiences with trainers with Yana and now I'm very paranoid about the trainers I'm going to work with.

My both dogs had tantrums and I didn't have to do any rolling, and I hope that the instructor didn't do it because I would loose any trust in her. Plus to everything she's already labeled my Anton as rude and aggressively reactive so everybody in the class try to keep as far as possible from us.







Anton is not agressive, he's normal working line pup that is testing his waters. I don't want to overreact myself that's why I hope you would give me some of your insight into the situation. 

Thank you!


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Find a new class. There's no reason to hold a dog against the ground, which is still pinning. It's an alpha roll. There are better ways to solve the mouthy dog problem and this is just going to make that poor dog more nervous when people go to touch her around her collar.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thanks for your response, Diana. That's what I thought that one can call it a 'gentle touch' or 'dog nirvana' but it is still an alpha roll. It wasn't looking bad just for me, the other woman outside the class was screaming 'Please stop!" to the trainer, and the trainer didn't stop but did it again for the second time. It lasted probably 10-15 min.

I was also thinking that the dog was already scared of anybody touching her collar and that's why throwing herself on the ground. In this case, if the dog shows extreme submission, why the trainer had to bully the dog and hold it to the ground even gently? All dogs in the class were getting stressed and I made sure I work with Anton on everything he knows so far to keep him busy and focused on me.

I've seen the owner with that dog after the class. The dog was biting her hands if she wanted to touch the dog's head.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

It sounds like what Cesar Millan does, with the same excuses to not to say it is alpha rolling.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I did not see this I had already left the building as my class was finished. I will be staying next week to see what happens. As this clubs vice president I have av ested interest in the training that goes on there. That siad there are some things thta have disatisfied me as well and I have posted about them too looikng for advice. 

I have a hard time believng this instructor did this and I have never seen her do it before. She is actually a vet with a background in behavior and if I were chosing an instructor I would chose her.

If you did not see the whole thing play out are you sure of the precipitating event?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy, as I stated above I have not seen how it started, I've just seen the result. And that's why I am posting it here to hear some input from people because I don't want to jump to any conclusions. You may not believe me and believe the instructor, you know the instructor better and she has credentials. I don't have credentials, and I don't pretend to. I just have a dog that I care for and want to train, and I learn as much as I can about German Shepherds, and I take classes and actually look forward to work with the new instructors because I can learn more from them. I"ve seen what I've seen. The instructor explained what started that because people were very stressed looking at this. 

Maybe there were legitimate reason for this and maybe the dog started biting and I missed something in the explanation. I don't want to blame anybody here, let's say I missed the point and everything is fine.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I can't think of any good reason to do what this trainer did. I would not come back a second time just to see if she does it again. There are much better dog schools out there and I suggest you switch to one.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

You would have to tell us where in Eastern WA.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy is right, unfortunately. This dog training club has the most qualified trainers available around here, nowhere else to go


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Even if I was OK with rolling or pinning dogs, I would NEVER EVER be OK with ANYONE else disciplining my dogs in that manner unless it was a serious situation (like the dog was attacking a child and had to be pulled off). I don't allow anyone to correct my dogs in any manner beyond a verbal "no" or "eh eh!"


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

You can still go but be very firm if the instructor starts to handle your dog. And be very firm in what you will and will not do with your dog.

I've trained in the same venue as people who were pretty clueless. I just did my own thing. My mistake was not standing up to a jerk down here. Didn't "ruin" my dog but I quit going to the class. You have to be vigilant and insistent unless you have a lot of trust in the instructor. 

I didn't see the thing play out but it sounds pretty stupid for a dog that got upset and threw itself on the ground when her collar was touched to force the issue. I don't see this as reassuring the dog one whit. Was the person yelling to stop the owner of the dog? I think perhaps a better course would be to say "stop that now or I will call the police!" It is especially upsetting that all the dogs were upset by it. 

If you go back, I would be very clear with the trainer that she is to keep her hands off your dog.

I can give you the name of a trainer in Salem Oregon that may be more to your liking. I found a private lesson from him every once in a while really helped me deal with the situation I was training in. It's not cheap but you could probably go three times a year for a couple of lessons.

You can explain to him what you want, how you want to train, what your concerns are, what your goals are and go from there. His kids (they're probably somewhere in there 30s by now!) are I think also giving private lessons.

There are always alternatives. (Yeah, I should have found some 6 years ago after LR didn't work out very well!)


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Spokane is far closer to us than Salem and there are some good trainers there as well but even that is well over 2 hours each way for her and over 3 for me.

I have been working at getting to the bottom of this. As I said in my first post, the instructor is a vet and has a background in behavior. Although I do not and the club dose not condone alpha rolls I will leave the public post as some things are not always as they seem.

I will email Oksana probably tomorrow from work.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Liesje, I'm also not comfortable with other people correcting my dogs. I didn't understand this with Yana and had to put lots of work into repairing my relationship with her after her being handled and corrected by a 'trainer'. Never again unless I trust the person (as I trusted the behaviourist that worked with Yana and us, and it was lots of help).

Middleofnowhere, thank you for your input. I will continue with the class because I know and see for myself that Anton needs training around the dogs and with distractions, I don't really care about his passing the CGC class. I told the class assistand that I wouldn't want the instructor to do something like this with my dog, and I won't allow her to handle Anton in such manner. With my second dog I'm turning into a protective bitch, but it makes my life easier in some way. 

I've also lost trust in appearances and words and titles if they are not backed up by actions but it happened long time ago and is a side affect of my being raised and of my life in a different culture. Sorry, but I don't give a **** that the instructor is a vet, I didn't bring my dog to a vet clinic, I brought him to a dog training place and I want to see a knowledgable dog trainer, not a vet. 

The person yelling to stop wasn't the owner of the dog, it was a person observing the class. The owner of the dog was standing by the dog and just looking. 

I opened this thread to have people's input on a matter that troubled me. I didn't name any names, I don't want anything to be blown out of proportion. I may be wrong and I may misunderstand some things. The instructor maybe a wonderful person and a terrific trainer and I will see it by myself when I continue with the class. This is a disclaimer.

Kathy, please don't proceed with the investigation, I don't see any point really even though I can repeat every word I wrote here to the instructor if needed. I stand by my words, but I guess I won't be able to continue the class in this case and will have to find a different place to socialize Anton which is a challenge in our neck of the woods.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I was going to respond to this post last night, when it was originally posted, but we had a huge thunderstorm blow through and our power went out just as I was typing my post.

Anyway, here's how I feel about the situation.

First, I was not there and I did not see what happened. You also did not see what happened prior to the trainer standing over the dog, holding (or otherwise keeping) the dog on the ground.

However, based on your description, it sounds like the dog was in obvious distress: growling, tucked tail, panting, being uncomfortable. And the trainer was in an obvious dominant pose - over the top of her, holding her (in some way or another) on the ground. To me, regardless of what name you attach to this, it's an Alpha roll and it is pinning. If you use your whole body weight or just your hand, it's still pinning. And if you force a dog onto it's back or side and hold it down to make it submit, it's an Alpha roll.

I also think that an Alpha roll and pinning is not an acceptable response to a young dog mouthing or "throwing" itself onto the floor. Both of those sound like normal puppy behaviors that you train out of the dog by showing them what you *want* them to do and rewarding them for doing the right thing. Not forcing them to submit, which teaches them nothing but to be afraid of the person training them and working with them.

I think the owners most likely didn't know what to do, and, after all, this person is a trainer and a vet, so she must know what she's doing. I see that a lot, where people with no prior dog experience get into a class and take the trainer's opinions as gospel, even if they include yanking a dog around by the neck, Alpha rolling, or zapping a dog with the e-collar until it submits. A lot of people just don't know any better and/or believe whatever explanation is given.

As a dog owner, if I'm uncomfortable in a class and worried about my dog getting manhandled in a manner I don't approve of by a trainer, I would go looking for a different class or a different trainer. If there are none - and that sounds like the case in your situation - I would make it clear, in no uncertain terms, that noone but myself is to handle my dog in the class and that I do not approve of pinning, Alpha rolling, or other physical corrections coming from the trainer.

I do let other people handle my dog, but I'm very vocal about what they may and may not do, and I never let anyone take my dog's leash if she is wearing a training collar (choke, prong, martingale), not even the vet or vet techs when we have to go to the clinic. It's up to me to protect my dog from what I perceive as rough handling and/or abusive methods - as I perceive them, not other people.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have to agree with you Chris on much of this. There are probably 3 or 4 people I trust with my dogs. Unfortunately none of them are instructors in our club. Several are club members but not instructors. Is this a negative commentary on our club? yes and no. There are some I just do not know well enough and some I do not feel are skilled enough to handle a high drive dog. 

I had to define an alpha roll for our club president yesterday. She did not know what it was.

Here is what I sent her:

"Alpha rolling is a very old dominance technique and a good way to get bit in the face if you do it to the wrong dog. It really is not appropriate for a class full of family dogs. I heard from the same person that the owner was angry. I do not do alpha rolls, do not recommend it nor do I do endorse it’s use in a class in which the general public is enrolled.

Alpha rolling is by definiton an act where the dominant being, the human, forces a dog on its' back in a submissive posture and holds it there. This is never done in the animal kingdom. A higher status dog will elicit a submissive response from a lower ranking dog simply by means of its position and body posture. The higher ranking dog does not force or pin the lower ranking dog. The lower ranking dog offers the behavior as an appeasement. There is generally no physical contact.

Case in point. Max is eating his dinner. Havoc gets nosy and sticks his snout toward Max's bowl. Max grumbles in his throat and may snarl, Havoc drops to the ground in appeasement and may show his belly in deference to Max's authority in the Woodbury pack. I have witnessed this several times in the house. Same behavior when Havoc decides he wants to try to get Max's favorite toy, a sheepskin lamb. Max never puts a mouth on a dog, they offer the gesture. If Havoc wants Kayos' toy she drops it like she has been scalded and drops to the ground with her head lowered and ears in a submissive "greyhoud" position. She is the omega dog in the pack. The alpha roll is an offered position by a lower status dog to a higher status dog. OFFERED, not FORCED.

If that dog offered the behavior to (I deleted instructor name) that is one thing but to force it on the dog is almost no different than slapping someone in the face after they apologized.

An alpha roll is simply our bastardization of a very simple method of maintaining order in the pack.This is one area where someone should shoot cesar Milan. Shame on us." 


Unfortunately the question has already been asked - not because Anton is a GSD and it was posted here and emailed to me privately. If any student has an issue with a class it is incumbent on us to address it immediately. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, in some cases they must be dealt with and I feel this is one such case. 

Our club is rebuilding. It almost folded about 5 years ago. The club is now growing fast and has many very novice members, many of them are very talented but lack experience. They need to be devoloped and they cannot gain knowledge and experience if issues such as this are left unaddressed. This club owes it to the community to grow so we can provide excellent training, we cannot do it if we let important things go. This issue is an important thing. 

I am sorry if you may feel self concsious as this has now been bought up but you did ask the question and raise the issue. Personally, I would not care what the instructor thought of me or my dog. That is her problem. You did what you needed to do for your dog and yourself and maybe you helped a few other dogs in the process. You should be proud of that and I sure would not consider qiutting cause you feel a little self conscious.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

OKsana, please don't feel too bad about it. The way I read it you were not coming here to make assumptions about anyone and publicly put down the instructor; you were simply describing what you saw (even if that's not the whole story) and asking a question. I think this thread has some good discussion about what individuals will or will not accept, without explicitly putting down specific people.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I sometimes think we have to have really thick skins with this breed!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Liesje, you understood me absolutely correctly, thank you for your supportive comment. I asked a question because I wanted to understand what was going on. I'm used to ask questions because that's how I was taught to learn when I was a student myself. It was pounded in our heads that we learn not by memorizing answers but by asking questions and finding the anwers on our own. We were taught to think and not just accept what we were presented. And now I can't help but just apply this approach when I'm a student with my dogs at a dog training school. 

I have also taught at a university for seven years, and what I learnt from that experience was that I wasn't the only source of information and the highest authority for my students, they were very intelligent and bright and pushed me really hard to constantly be on top of the latest news in my field. I had to EARN their respect, it didn't come automaticly with the job.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> It's up to me to protect my dog from what I perceive as rough handling and/or abusive methods - as I perceive them, not other people.


Chris, thanks so much for such a detailed response. Thank you for saying what you've said because that what I was feeling but couldn't put it down so nicely like you did.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyW
> I am sorry if you may feel self concsious as this has now been bought up but you did ask the question and raise the issue. Personally, I would not care what the instructor thought of me or my dog. That is her problem. You did what you needed to do for your dog and yourself and maybe you helped a few other dogs in the process. You should be proud of that and I sure would not consider qiutting cause you feel a little self conscious.


Kathy, I am not proud. I turned everybody against me at this point I guess and I closed the doors to this club for myself because I expressed my concerns and didn't show appropriate respect for the vet, but honestly the only successful class I had there was your ob class for Yana so I'll deal with it. My dogs don't fit in our training club very well, and I probably don't fit in our community very well.

I will not quit unless asked to leave the class. Anton does need to work around the dogs but if I'm the only bad guy with a vicious dog than I will leave with no more questions asked.

I have emailed you.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Driving a long way to training does suck. I had an initial class in Salem (it wasn't my first obedience class) when I lived there. But when I went to Salem the last few times, I lived in Wyoming. (So let me get out my fiddle about distance... ) That's why I suggested perhaps a couple of day's stay with a couple of lessons - that would get one started, give you somethings to work on - then you could go every few months or something like that.

There ARE alternatives. Traveling to Salem, gave me what I needed to keep training my way with a 4H leader who meant well.
I need to remember myself with my next dogs that THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES - They may not be easy but they're there.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

The above posters are almost 400 miles from Salem. Why is it necessary to go on and on because someone isn't able to travel 400 miles ONE WAY.

With the prices of everything, beginning with fuel, it would cost an arm and a leg to go that far for training. They would be better off to go to Seattle or Spokane once a week which would STILL be quite costly. Not to mention the fact that it is not a good idea to go anywhere across the mountains in the winter because you are likely to get STUCK over there when they close the interstate.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Middle used to live out here so knows what she means. 

I emailed you back Oksana!! 

We are trying to build a good club here and I may not fit either but if I leave who fights for the little guy and current sound training? That advice to me came from this board. If you do not want to join you are always still welcome to take classes that fit you and to track with us. At least this club is willing to take difficult dogs. Many won't. And just my opinion, I suspect the instructor may be afraid of GSD's. Couple of things she has said in the past and maybe I am misinterpreting to. Who knows.

BTW - I am teaching the January CGC class. You might want to consider repeating it then and you have the ride share to Manning's with Havoc and I end of this month.


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## SeriousConfusion (Aug 2, 2006)

You can always come try Schutzhund in Tacoma with me


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yikes LONG drive for me!!! But would love to meet you and Ruger!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES - They may not be easy but they're there.


Middleofnowhere, I will pm you a little later (have to leave now for a walk with my black troublemaker







) The above words you said have to be written in stone. There are always alternatives, and if the God closes the door he opens the window. Thanks again for this reminder!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I may be reading this differently from everyone else, but what I read said that the dog was throwing itself down - which is not a typical "alpha roll" in the way that alpha rolls were used in "training" back in the old days. We flipped the dogs down and it wasn't passive in any way. 

If the instructor or owner reaches for the collar and the dog throws itself to the ground, touching the neck/collar may be used as a means to show the dog that touching the collar is to be allowed. This has nothing to do with an alpha roll. And depending on the dog, it may be very effective. Dogs who submit willingly to other dogs often show signs of submission like tucked tails, open mouths, panting, etc. (I see that in my pack at times). That can also happen with a dog's submissive reaction to a human. 

Personally I see nothing in what was described that says that the instructor actually did an alpha roll. Twice the OP said that the dog throws itself to the ground. If the instructor was holding the dog there with just a little pressure on the neck, then the dog evidently wasn't fighting it. Believe me, if a dog wanted to get up and you didn't have a tight hold, the dog would get up. When we did alpha rolls it was usually with both hands holding a tight grip on the fur, and our bodies over the dog to help hold it down. I don't condone the alpha roll anymore and haven't in a long time, but honestly what I'm reading isn't an alpha roll at all.

There have been times, over the years and even recently, where I have held a dog down for a bit when the dog has willingly submitted to me and it takes just a small touch on the neck. It's not aggressive on my part, it's more the dog continuing to submit without me having to use any real pressure to keep the dog down. I don't have the strength in my hands anymore to even do an alpha roll, but a dog that submits willingly is not any problem to keep down even with my weak hands.

If the instructor has been there for awhile and her techniques are known and accepted - and she isn't known for doing an alpha roll - then I would tend to give her the benefit of the doubt. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Melanie, thanks so much for your seeing the situation! So it is possible and the instructor in reality could be right and everything looked worse than it was in reality. I wasn't sure and that's why I posted the question and tried to understand without any reaction and didn't go and made a scene at the class. Because I was giving her the benefit of the doubt even though I was pretty stressed, I admit. 

Unfortunately, everything received the wrong spin and I better had to keep my mouth shut and the keybord sealed, I guess. So much for privacy and anonymousity but I shouldn've known better. It's sad, not for me but for Anton since he will be the one to pay the price. But at least I realized how other people percieve me as a handler and as a person and how Anton is viewed as well so everything was probably worse it.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

SeriousConfusion, thanks for your support! I wish we lived closer to you!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Kathy, I'm glad you are staying with the club. I know you care for dogs and owners and you are a big asset to this club. I've just never thought of you as a vice-president though, mostly just like a nice person and a trainer that is not freaked out by my dogs







I also tend to think the instructor may be afraid of GSDs, and I still believe that it's nothing wrong to watch the instructor very closely on the first class to understand if I can trust her with my dog. 

I don't know about January yet, it may be a good idea. I will call Jane and ask if there is a spot for me and Anton in the class you are taking, and I'll let you know. Thank you!!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Okasana, there is nothing wrong in questioning a questionable situation, and I wouldn't be too hard on yourself if I were you. What this instructor probably should have done is set up private sessions with this student and her collar-sensitive/biting dog. It's very hard to deal with a big problem behavior like that in a group setting because things can be interpreted in a variety of ways and it can be upsetting to other people and dogs. 

If I'm teaching a class and I end up having to do something that is not normal for the class, I make a point of explaining it afterwards to the entire group so that everyone understands what happened and what my reasoning was. Some dogs need a firmer hand than others, some need to be allowed to work through problems in a way that may be very confusing to watch, and in a class setting you run the risk of having people misunderstand what's going on. It would have been much better, I think, if the instructor had assessed the situation and set up separate training for that dog/owner, or explained what she was doing to the group so that no one was upset or confused. 

I agree with those who say to not just hand the leash over to an instructor because you don't know what an instructor will do to your dog. On the other hand, some people learn best by watching a technique done with their own dog, since every dog is a bit different and may take a bit different handling. So you have to decide for yourself if you're really comfortable with an instructor and willing to let them show you something with your own dog. I've often taken someone's dog to show them how to work with a behavior and have never had a student (in 20 years) upset with me. But I also would not use any kind of correction on someone's dog without discussing it fully with them ahead of time (and we use highly positive methods in my classes, no corrective collars).

Good luck with your classes, and I hope that everything goes smoothly from now on!

Melanie and the gang


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Melanie, our training committee will address this Monday night. We will also talk about the appropriateness in a group setting as there is so much room for misinterpretation. I have no idea what the instructor told the training director but they have discussed it. 

I am still floored that this instructor would do an "alpha roll" according to the club pres I think the dog flopped down and was not forced but I do not know that for certain. 

Things like this actually help us to develop better classes and be better instructors and learn. No one should make the OP feel bad by being upset and asking a question. It is her right and her responsibility to be concerned for how her dog will be handled.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Melanie and Kathy, thanks, I really feel better now and stop kicking myself for causing this trouble. I think I would truly appreciate if the instructor told us what and why she was doing what she did and not just that "I know what I am doing and you don't understand what is going on and why I am doing this, so see you next week".

When Yana was a puppy I was told that I need to do 'dominance exercise' with her and I was shown how. The guy grabbed his 90lb not neutered Golden retriever, flipped him in the air and smashed at the ground on his back with quite a noise, and then held him by the throat when the dog was fighting to get up, growling, panting, tucked his tail, and then submitted. After that the dog went to the corner of the room and never came back. It was very horrifiying to watch and I promised myself never, never do something like this to my dogs, expecially out of the blue as an 'exercise'. I'm telling this so you understand that I myself have a bad association with alpha roll, and I just didn't know that a dog can do it like this on it's own so I was very stressed, probably more than other people.

I really hope that the dog in the class just threw herself on the ground by her own will. I think I will feel fine with the instructor handling my dog but I will absolutely not allow her to correct him.

Thanks again everybody for your input!!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

what you saw with the GR was a true alpha roll and horrid!!! It is forced and the dog really fights. With a big dog there would be a errible struggle which is why I think what happened last week was probably not true alpha roll, none the less, probably not appropriate in a group class with the general public not really understanding the behavior.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Just wanted to write a little update. I went to the class yesterday and I liked it! Everything was very different, the dogs were well behaved, a reactive dog (another one) was taken aside and worked with separately. The instructor explained everybody that Anton is still a puppy even though he's big so his attention span is still short so people would not be afraid of him even though he can bark. It was much more relaxed class this time and I am very happy about it. 

Thank you again everybody, you were such a big help for me!!


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

That's great Oksana!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Cool!!! Class did seem quieter last week 

It turns out the dog that was rolled had flopped over when touched but was biting at the owner so the instructor held it with light pressure. The trainng committee had heard several complaints about this even tho it was not an alpha roll and asked the instructor to refrain from that in class and work with owners after class if this needed to be done.

Sometimes the appearance of that can turn people off and upset them. As Oksana said she did not see the whole thing but it sounded terrible. That would have distressed anyone and there a few that did say something not just Oksana.

This is how we improve ourselves so keep asking questions!


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