# Ugh, just Frustrated.



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I know exactly what I want in a dog. And a lot of you know that I would LOVE a liver puppy, but being as specific as I am with what I want in a dog, I don't think I'll ever get a liver. 

My frustration stems from the breeders I've found for the color. 
One is basically a puppy mill. Has 5 litters on the ground currently, breeds oversized GSDs, doesn't work them, they're suitable to be pets and nothing more, no hip clearances (aside from one, scored 'fair')....
Then another one who is a decent breeder. Not the best, but decent. But she has mostly American lines, which is a far cry from what I'm looking for. She also bred a liver litter with both parents being carriers of DM, but wanted the first registered all-liver litter.... I don't think color should EVER come before health, period.

Why aren't there any 'ethical' dilute breeders, at least that I can find? I know liver and blue is shunned in the show ring, but they can excel and prove themselves in other ways, like Schutzhund, agility, herding, flyball, SAR, IPO, etc. 

Why do these breeders put color over everything else? Health? Temperament? The TRUE GSD? It'd be awesome if there was a breeder that had dilute GSDs, but KEPT them GSDs, not giant couch potatoes that are a mess in the health and temperament departments....

*Sigh* Rant over.... Just frustrated....


----------



## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Here's the problem with breeding for one trait or even worse, breeding for one _recessive_ trait: you tend to bring out other negative recessive traits as well like disease traits. 

If you are looking for a particular rare color, I think you'll have to wait a good amount of time till you find a reputable breeder that happened to have a rare color pop up. I'll ask some breeders that I know, but I doubt any of them have even had a mutation like that pop up in a long time.

I do know of a case in a nearby rescue that had a liver female they adopted out. Don't give up on rescues! Some rare gems pop up there also. 

Sorry about your frustration. Hopefully your wait will eventually be fruitful


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

That was a good response!


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I know that when I'm ready for a puppy, I'll put ads out there with what I'm looking for and hopefully someone, somewhere, will have the perfect dog for me. I know it might be a while, but also know that looking for that perfect breeder now wouldn't be such a smart idea, seeing as how if a pairing produces dilutes, they're likely to never be paired again. 

At first I didn't understand why people 'hated' the dilute colors. The more I look, and the more I dig, the more I understand. To me, it's not the dogs, but the breeders that breed for those dogs and continually create 'GSDs' that aren't what a German shepherd is supposed to be, aside from the name on their registration.

I don't think it would make a breeder a bad breeder by breeding for a specific color, as long as they worked the dogs, had them health and temperament tested, etc. There's so many more venues for dogs other than conformation where a dog can prove themselves. And honestly, I don't think conformation is really proof that a dog is breed worthy. (AKC).... 
I think a dog that can work, is healthy, and has a stable temperament but is the 'wrong' color should be chosen over a dog with perfect conformation with poor health and an unstable temperament.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

qbchotta has it covered but wanted to give you a visual.










Adele is why breeders should never ever breed for color traits. 
I know "blue" pit bulls have bad skin issues - pigment cells are useful for something beyond making a dog look pretty.
Adele is a "double dapple" and while a different recessive gene than what makes a liver, still genetics at work which strip a dog of color. 
The pigment cells in the eyes help make them form correctly. Without those, you wind up with defective pupils and even tiny, almost non-existent eyes. 
Pigment cells in the ears help the ear form correctly and be able to hear. Without the pigment cells there, dogs are prone to deafness. Adele is virtually deaf, and blind.

People should breed only to "better the breed", and when you see someone breeding for colors (any breed) it is a huge red flag.
You'd do better to wait for a "rare" liver amongst a litter bred by a good and ethical breeder, or wait for one to turn up in rescue if you must have one.

Preferential color is nice, don't throw it out, but make sure the other things (titles, health checks) are lined up first. And when you do that, I doubt you'll find a breeder who is breeding for anything other than to say they are 'breeding rare colors, aren't they pretty and unique", come get one.


----------



## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

5 year old "Dude" at Westside German Shepherd Rescue in LA.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Nikon's breeder had a litter that had a blue puppy (Nikon's littermate is the dam). The thing is, the litters are reserved well in advanced, so even someone looking FOR a blue puppy probably would have had no chance of getting that one. Luckily someone who had already committed to the litter was willing to take the blue puppy. This was one blue puppy in the entire litter. I'm not aware that either parent has produced a blue before or since. So even if a breeder wanted to breed FOR this color, it's not that easy.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

As far as I am aware of, in GSDs, the other colors are not linked to health problems. Dapple is the merle gene, isn't it? Just given a different name for Dachshunds? Merle/merle should never be paired, in any breed. I believe this is common knowledge among reputable breederswho breed dogs of those colors.
But genes are all different. Some breeds, like boxers and dalmatians, are often hearing impaired if they're white. However, that isn't the case with GSDs.
A lot if black/tan GSDs have skin issues, so I don't really believe that a dilute is at a higher risk if that.

Also, in a sense, don't many sgow breeders for GSDs essentially breed for color? Black/red is cherished ib the show ring, so that's what most breed for, over blacks, sables, or bi-colors.

I honestly din't believe it's an issue with the colors themselves, but the unerhical breeders that strive for these colors and put the color over health, working ability, phtsical conformation, and temperament. Yeah, a lot if the dilute dogs tend to have poorer gealth, but it isn't because of the color, it's the breeders.

I doubt it will ever happen, but I would love to breed dilutes, but breeding true, stable, healthy GSDs would always come before color.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Sorry if there are typos, I'm replying with my phone.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The problem is that by breeding for these colors you are so severely limiting the available gene pool you *can't* really be breeding for work and temperament and health. Breeders that breed for work and temperament and health don't get blues and livers because they don't want them but because it's just that rare. As far as WGSL go, breeders don't really breed for black and red anymore because most of those lines already are black and red. I have seen breeders advertise certain dogs as having exceptional color and pigment but haven't really seen that influencing the actual breeding decisions (one of those things that's nice to get, but not really the goal). At least in my experiences with WGSL dogs, breeders, shows, etc it's more the puppy buyers or the general public that are obsessed with the blackest black and the reddest red than the breeders. WGSL breeders aren't avoiding other colors, it just doesn't really happen other than sable (and the sable male at the USA Sieger Show got a VA rating so sable is definitely not looked down on in the show ring).


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

kono -


> Adele is a "double dapple" and *while a different recessive gene than what makes a liver, still genetics at work which strip a dog of color. *


My point is that this is why breeders should only breed to better the breed, not to produce "fancy" or "rare" colors. It's fine to have a color in a breed, but to work at getting more of a recessive gene is foolhardy at best and dangerous to the dogs, at worst.
I believe BLUE/LIVER/Whatever, if it's a recessive gene stripping pigment, whether merle/dapple/or liver/blue, you're still going to wind up with a dog susceptible to skin issues including allergies and demodex. Washed out pigment is just as bad for the skin cells as is white (lack of pigment) in dapple/merle dogs in other cells.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> I doubt it will ever happen, but I would love to breed dilutes, but breeding true, stable, healthy GSDs would always come before color.


Livers and blues combined make up less than 1% of all AKC registered GSD's. (at least they did the last time I checked) The gene pool is very, very small. If you were going to breed dilutes with the goal of producing healthy, temperamently sound dogs it would take years and years and years to consistently produce good dogs (if you were lucky) and even then you'd be known as the breeder who deliberately goes against the breed standard. You'd probably find yourself being viewed the same way you view the breeders who are already intentionally producing the livers and blues. Are you sure that's a road you want to go down?


----------



## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Nikon's breeder had a litter that had a blue puppy (Nikon's littermate is the dam). The thing is, the litters are reserved well in advanced, so even someone looking FOR a blue puppy probably would have had no chance of getting that one. Luckily someone who had already committed to the litter was willing to take the blue puppy. This was one blue puppy in the entire litter. I'm not aware that either parent has produced a blue before or since. So even if a breeder wanted to breed FOR this color, it's not that easy.


And I would have taken that particular blue puppy in a heartbeat!!! I don't care for liver or solid blue, but that blue/red puppy was beautiful and he still is!!


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

It's not so much the fact that I would want to produce 'rare' colors. It's more the idea that, for people like me, who want a good working dog (a real GSD,) but want an 'off' color, that would be possible. People wouldn't have to settle either for a GSD of their preferred color that's an oversized, unhealthy, nervebag couch potato, or a GSD that's everything they want besides the color. 

I realize that this may likely NEVER happen, but if it did, everything that is a true GSD would come before color. It would take many years and a lot of breeding out to produce carriers and to avoid inbreeding, but it is possible. 
The first step would be to find two perfect liver GSDs, probably females, both with unrelated pedigrees, which would take a lot of time in itself. Then once she proves herself, find a stud that compliments her pedigree, and then produce puppies that carry the liver gene. Do that with both females, then hope that two puppies from the separate litter would be a good candidates to pair up. If not, then keep trying and hopefully some day.... 
I know it wouldn't be cheap. I know it wouldn't be easy. I know it wouldn't be 'fast.' But it is possible. 

It would be nice if there was one breeder who basically did that, but I've yet to find any. Every breeder I've found focuses on color, and little else. I wouldn't want to be that breeder. 
I would want to be a breeder that produces quality, healthy dogs fit for work and home, and maybe have livers available from time to time. Color would be the last priority after everything else, but it WOULD be a minor focus. 
This is all basically hypothetical, because I very highly doubt I'll ever breed GSDs anyway.

Point being, it would be great if I could find a breeder that produced quality dogs, but also produced 'wrong' colors for potential buyers like me who want the total GSD, but in a shunned color.


----------



## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

Even if you found those 'perfect' females, how do you know the owner of the 'perfect' stud would even let you breed his/her male to your dilute? Not trying to be mean; I'm asking out of complete curiosity. Would the "responsible" dog community be open to something like that?


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't, which is another reason I would probably (more than likely, not) ever do it. 

I don't want to sound like a broken record here, because this comes up a lot when dealing with this subject, but the creator of the breed said, "No good dog can be a bad color." 

One breeder I was considering (the one who bred the two DM carrier dogs) also boasts about her dogs soft, mellow temperaments, which is NOT what I want.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

he meant, though, that you should not vote against a dog JUST on the basis of color. So if you had a dog that was exceptional in every way just not the right color, then you should go ahead and use it. People will sometimes make the choice to go with a dog with a slightly lower-ranked dog that is a "good" color vs an exceptional dog that is a "bad" color. Max was saying "choose on the sum of the parts, not on one aspect"

What you are talking about is doing the opposite. The main basis of the choice would be to produce a certain color. Yes, you want to have dogs that are healthy, have good drive, etc but, in the end, you need to have the blue or liver color. That is exactly what Max said NOT to do. You (generic you breeding this litter) would be letting a single genetic trait dictate the direction of the breeding program.

With the Red/Blacks there is a diverse gene pool. Genetically red/black is the same black/tan we all know in the GSD. All you are doing is picking dogs with a good expression of their coloring. There isn't a shortage of dogs with nice coloring and, especially in WGSL, the red/black is the predominate color found. A recessive is the opposite. Mixing in any other color is going to set back your chance of getting that rare color you are looking for. 

So finding a breeder who is willing to do it correctly is highly unlikely. You have to take the best blue dog that you can get. Is a good breeder going to sell a default color without a limited registration? HIGHLY unlikely so that starts off the program using dogs from a less-reputable source. That equals a higher chance of health problems.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Konotashi said:


> I realize that this may likely NEVER happen, but if it did, everything that is a true GSD would come before color.


But it already *does* happen. Breeders who breed for health and temperament first and color last *do* get the occasional rare color. I don't see how what you're proposing would be any different, or how it would produce more of these colors without breeding for color?


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Your premise of breeding for colors and breeding for health, temperament and working ability as being compatible is faulty in my opinion for this breed. And breeding for a negative recessive is also faulty.JMO


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Didn't really intend for this to turn into my little fantasy of ever becoming a breeder, just my frustration for how all the breeders I've found are basically puppy mills or have no regard to health or temperament. 

I know one breeder does CERF on most of her dogs, DM, OFA, etc., but I don't know what the point of doing the testing is if she went and knowingly bred two DM carriers, just to get a whole litter of registered 'rare' colors.


----------



## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Konotashi said:


> Didn't really intend for this to turn into my little fantasy of ever becoming a breeder, just my frustration for how all the breeders I've found are basically puppy mills or have no regard to health or temperament.
> 
> I know one breeder does CERF on most of her dogs, DM, OFA, etc., but I don't know what the point of doing the testing is if she went and knowingly bred two DM carriers, just to get a whole litter of registered 'rare' colors.


I think what cliff's trying to say... and, cliff, please correct me if I'm wrong... is it's just not possible to strictly breed for these faulty colors like liver and still give a dog/puppy it's best possible chance at a sound temperament, working ability, etc. There's just not enough dogs in the gene pool to make it happen. 

Once you start gearing a breeding program towards one (color or any extremes), it may take away from others (balance). You need to build that balance and it's just not there when breeding for rare or faulty colors. 

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I get what you guys are saying, but my frustration stems from the fact that the breeders don't even try to achieve that balance. Yeah, one does health testing, but aims for mellowed out dogs that are bred for the show ring (the non-disqualifying colored dogs, anyway) and the other focuses on color and nothing more.


----------



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

that is exactly our point. Why should a good breeder strive to breed for a niche market? Because that is what a "rare" color like this is going to be - an appeal to buyers. Serious dog people aren't going to want this dog - sure a working home might take it if one happens to show up, but not if they want a potential breeding animal. A show home is DEFINITELY not going to want one. So who is left? pet homes. What reputable breeder is going to breed solely for pets? That means that you would HAVE to breed more mellow dogs because the average pet home because they don't want a driven dog.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't think breeding for recessive color factors into "balance" for most breeders. There are plenty of great breeders that have successfully balance health, temperament, working abilities, and conformation for generations.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I guess I didn't think of the idea of being one of the very few who want a working dilute.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Back to the Dachshund comparison...sure the double dapples are "pretty" to look at, you could even say "unique", but the coloration pattern is detrimental to them, so the market for them is vastly uneducated about health issues, and no serious owner would want one nor would a serious breeder strive to produce one. 
In fact, in Germany, even single dapples are "culled".


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

How do double dapple/merles look different than singles? I know a lot of times it produces a lot of white on a dog, but if the chances of the dog being blind and/or deaf is nearly guaranteed, I don't see why anyone would knowingly produce them....
There's a difference between producing double merles like that, vs. producing dilutes in GSDs. Dilution isn't going to cripple a dog, due to its color, unlike the merle/merle.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It's a comparison to breeding practices, as I mentioned two pages ago, not the exact situation.
It's still less than stellar breeding in both cases.



> I don't see why anyone would knowingly produce them....


Because they are *pretty and unique. *
Just like the washed out pigment in liver GSDs..."pretty and unique".
Oh, and usually _that_ translates to extra $$$


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

It's not really comparable, though. 

The dilute color in GSDs won't cripple them like merle/merle breeding will.

I understand the point you're trying to convey, but it's not a fair comparison.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is comparable, in that it's breeding away from the standard.
No good breeder strives to breed _away _from the standard, no matter what the breed.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Why is it so important that you have a dilute GSD? You have a dilute Pom, doesn't that satisfy?

If it's that important, why not go with another breed that has the temperament/working abilities that you like AND comes in Liver? Like a Kelpie?


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I was actually wondering if the Pom coloration had anything to do with the liver GSD desire...


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm not dead-set on getting a liver GSD, I would just greatly prefer one - but not over a standard colored GSD with everything I want. 

I just have a thing for brown dogs. Don't know why, I just like them. 

And I've been looking at Kelpies (starting yesterday) and finding breeders isn't the simplest thing....


----------



## CeCe (Jun 1, 2011)

Like others have said, intentionally breeding a liver is breeding away from the standard. The standard exists to protect the breeds integrity. It's like a breeder deciding that floppy ears make a shepherd look cuter and then breeding floppy eared shepherds-after a few generations of this the dogs become a different breed. I think that some liver shepherds are gorgeous, but if I wanted a well bred, brown colored puppy I would get a chocolate lab. A good breeder will not intentionally breed away from the standard.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I am all but positive the dilution gene would give rise to health issues, perhaps not noticeable right away but allergies and skin problems would spring to mind.


----------



## marshies (May 18, 2011)

Here's the thing though.

In order to breed liver, which is a recessive trait, you MUST select dogs that both have the gene before anything else. AND then, you can select for health, temperament, etc.

Like someone mentioned earlier, with only 1% of the gene pool of GSDs being dilute colors, there aren't many breeding prospects, nevermind breeding prospects with the correct temperament and working ability.

If you're bent on this color, timing might not be as flexible as you want. I think the best route would be to go with a breeder you like, and then stay on the list for dilute colors.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Breeds for which Liver (sometimes called "Red" or "Chocolate") is a standard color:

Kelpies
Border Collies
APBTs
Huskies
Labs
Dobermans
Springers
Flat-Coated Retrievers
German Shorthair/Wirehair Pointers
Portugese Water Dogs
Australian Shepherds
Bloodhounds
Standard Poodles
Dachshunds


....and many more I'm not thinking of at the moment...


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> And I've been looking at Kelpies (starting yesterday) and finding breeders isn't the simplest thing....


*ARIZONA*
*Rim Fire Stock Dogs,* Jeb and Pat Pringle, 1534 N Ocotillo, Benson 85602, 520-586-7484
*AR**KANSAS*
*Kowhand Kelpies*, James McCarty, 18433 S Hwy 59, Siloam Springs 72761, 479-200-2092
*CALIFORNIA*
*Deerwood Working Kelpies*, Laurie Batson, 3440 Vineyard Canyon Road, Parkfield Route, San Miguel 93451, 805-463-2487
*Kramer Working Kelpies*, Steve and Sharon Kramer, 4016 Old Railroad Grade, Fieldbrook 95519, 707-839-2043
*Urricelqui Working Kelpies*, Roger Urricelqui, PO Box 74, McArthur 96056, 530-336-5313
*COLORADO*
*Stellar Working Kelpies*, [EMAIL="[email protected]?subject=Inquiry_from_the_Kelpie_Registry"]Susan L. Clark[/EMAIL], 67000 E County Rd 38, Byers 80103, 303-345-8743
*Triple S Working Kelpies*, Judith Selby, INFORMATION ONLY - No longer breeding Kelpies., 387 Rd 39, Mancos 81328, 970-533-1375, more information: SnapHappy Photos
*FLORIDA*
*Quickheels Working Kelpies, *Meaghan Thacker, 317 Pond Ct., Havana 32333, 850-539-2063
*GEORGIA*
*CNF Working Stockdogs**, *Dewey Prevatt, 1051 Cacklenut Rd., Montezuma 31063, 478-542-0376
*IDAHO*
*Circle Lazy K Kelpies, *Kelly Orr, 3950 Sand Hollow Rd, New Plymouth 83655, 208-278-3184
*IOWA*
*Windrush Working Kelpie Stud,* Vern and Susan Thorp, 1959 Highway 63, New Sharon 50207, 641-672-2049
KENTUCKY
*Bearcreek **Working Kelpies*, Michael Wright, 534 Harlan Brown Road, Columbia 42728, 270-384-1691
MONTANA
*Feet Down Farm*, Penny Kukuk, PO Box 969, Bonner 59823, 406-244-6060
River Breaks Kelpies, Christy Kemp, 700 Road 303, Glendive 59330, 406-366-0366
LOUISIANA
*Dalton Stock Dogs*, Len and Kaye Dalton, 4436 Highway 71, Campti 71411, 318-476-2353
*OHIO*
*Sabol Hall Farm Kelpies*, Tamara Sabol, 6618 Lisbon Rd, Lisbon 44432, 330-424-3448
*OKLAHOMA*
*Rangeline Working Border Collies & Kelpies*, Ben and Leslie Means, INFORMATION ONLY - No longer breeding Kelpies, 442154 E 140 Rd, Bluejacket 74333, 918-784-2643 The Perfect Stockdog Training Program
*Sagebrush Working Kelpies, *K.J. Stewart, PO Box 87, Arnett 73832, 580-938-1169
*O**REGON*
*Broken Stirrup Working Kelpies*, Debbi Otley, 40926 S Diamond Lane, Diamond 97722, 541-493-2702
TEXAS
*BEM** Working Kelpies*, Eddie Moudy, PO Box 346, Earth 79031, 806-257-3738
*Crosswinds Ranch*, Daryl West, 28711 S US Hwy 87, Canyon 79015, 806-488-2399
*Doss-Tex Working Kelpies*, Jim Faught, 2285 Salt Branch Loop, Doss 78618, 830-669-2320
*Heel-Nippin’ Ranch Dogs*, Ida Parmer, PO Box 215, Groesbeck 76642, 254-562-3078
*WASHINGTON*
*Chuckanut Working Kelpies*, Jan and Ron Wesen, 7210 Worline Road, Bow 98232, 360-766-6808
*WYOMING*
*JMH Kelpies*, Jerry G and Marian S Howard, HC 40 Box 107, Decker, MT 59025, 307-750-2530
*La Prele Working Kelpies**, *Richard and Edna Grabow, 52 Sunflower Tr, RR1, Douglas, 82633, 307-358-3920
*CANADA - Alberta*
*BOS Kelpies, *Erin and Philip Baumung, Box 637, Duchess, T0J 020, Alberta, 403-378-3812 Watch for BOS Web Site - coming soon.
*CSS Working Kelpies*, Rick Miller, Box 2, Site 18, RR1, Bowden, Alberta T0M 0K0, 403-703-1056
*Coyote Creek Working Kelpies, *Kathleen and Lane Moore, Box 120 RR3 Site 5, Rimbey, Alberta T0C 2J0, 403-843-2025
*CANADA - British Columbia*
*Bakers Acres, *Jen and Ken Baker, 60 Hurt Rd, Lumby, British Columbia V0E 2G5, 250-547-0288
*Conrad's Working Kelpies, *William and Shirley Conrad, 268 Huscroft Road, Creston, British Columbia V0B 1G2, 250-428-0554 
*Kariboo Kelpies*, Debra Sharkey, 2770 Joyce Ave, Kamloops, British Columbia V2B 4M3, 250-376-1202
*CANADA - **Ontario*

*Hillydale Kelpies, *Sheri Purcell, 4471 Devitts Rd, Blackstock, Ontario L0B 1B0, 905-649-7999 
*K-9 Korral, *Terri Coutts, 1128 Brush Rd, RR2, Essex, N8M 2X6 Ontario 519-726-6699 *CANADA - Saskatchewan*
*Watkinson Working Kelpies,* Karin Watkinson and Tyrell Watkinson, PO Box 1447, Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan S6H-4R3, 306-692-2573

Working Australian Kelpie Breeders in North America


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's kelpies in rescue, too, we adopted one out last year.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm already planning on getting a red tri or red merle border collie in the (very distant) future.


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I am all but positive the dilution gene would give rise to health issues, perhaps not noticeable right away but allergies and skin problems would spring to mind.


I've heard this too but have looked all over and can't find any genetic studies that link skin or other genetic problems to the blues or livers. Without that information I think it safer to assume that if the blues and livers have more health problems it's from bad breeding rather than the genes that control color. 

Does anyone know if the genes were part of the breed originally or were they caused by a mutation later on? I've read both versions, have no idea which one is right.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

The reason I believe that is the blue pit bull terriers have higher incidence of allergies which manifest in the skin, more demodex and just overall hair thinness. I've seen the same in blue Chihuahuas, and both of those are dilution factors.

I could be wrong. I believe I'm right but no statistics to back it up with GSDs.

"Ehow". They use Dobies as an example. 
http://www.ehow.com/way_5526154_canine-color-dilution-alopecia-treatment.html
Not sure how accurate this is 

http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Hea...s/Follicular-Dysplasia/Causes-Prevention.aspx


----------



## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> The reason I believe that is the blue pit bull terriers have higher incidence of allergies which manifest in the skin, more demodex and just overall hair thinness. I've seen the same in blue Chihuahuas, and both of those are dilution factors.
> 
> I could be wrong. I believe I'm right but no statistics to back it up with GSDs.
> 
> ...


HUH.

I had a chocolate brown pit bull who would have allergic reactions to fleas. I had that dog 15 years and didn't know that she was 'colour diluted' or that skin problems were common with her colour. 

Learn something new every day... she died last year.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I think allergies and skin issues are common, period...but I don't think Chocolate brown is an actual dilution. Many dogs come in chocolate color without it being dilute. 
It would be a dilution if she was fawn or blue fawn.


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't know about in pit bulls, but liver is a dilution of the black in GSDs. It's a different dilution than blue.


----------



## minerva_deluthe (May 6, 2012)

Well, I just looked up blue pit bull and that's pretty much the colour she was! Though a lot less muscular than some of the dogs on google, that's for sure.


----------



## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Did you read either link??



> Canine follicular dysplasia is a term that encompasses a number of hair-loss-related disorders. Color dilution alopecia (CDA) is genetically seen in certain breeds with dilute coat colors, such as blue Great Danes, Yorkshire Terriers, Dachshunds, Italian Greyhounds, Greyhounds, Whippets, Chihuahuas and Doberman Pinschers. *Recently, so-called “silver Labrador Retrievers” have been diagnosed with color dilution alopecia, as have German Shepherd Dogs. *Genetics are also attributed to black hair follicular dysplasia (BHFD), which is seen in some multi-colored breeds, such as the Bassett Hound and Saluki, and also in some solid colored dogs which are primarily black. Pattern alopecia also has a genetic component and is seen primarily in short-haired dogs such as Chihuahuas, Miniature Pinschers, Greyhounds, Whippets, Boston Terriers, Boxers and Dachshunds. Basically, it appears that all forms of follicular dysplasia and/or pattern baldness in domestic dogs are probably genetic in origin. There is no other reported cause for this disorder in dogs.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> I know exactly what I want in a dog. And a lot of you know that I would LOVE a liver puppy, but being as specific as I am with what I want in a dog, I don't think I'll ever get a liver.
> 
> My frustration stems from the breeders I've found for the color.
> One is basically a puppy mill. Has 5 litters on the ground currently, breeds oversized GSDs, doesn't work them, they're suitable to be pets and nothing more, no hip clearances (aside from one, scored 'fair')....
> ...


 
*Maybe for people who know exactly what they want?*

*And perhaps for those folks who don't understand genetics and inheritance of recessive traits?*


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

codmaster said:


> *Maybe for people who know exactly what they want?*
> 
> *And perhaps for those folks who don't understand genetics and inheritance of recessive traits?*


What's that supposed to mean? 

I know how recessive traits work. 

And I also know that it's possible to breed out and make excellent examples of the breed of the 'wrong' color. 

For example, there's one liver male that has, in my unexperienced opinion, an excellent working pedigree. Breed him to a nice working female that he complements and one that complements him. Then you have carriers. I found a female with a very nice working pedigree. Breed her to a normal male. Produce more carriers. Then you have two separate litters of puppies that are carriers. Hopefully two, one from each litter, would make a suitable pairing. Breed them, hope for a liver. If no livers, DNA test to see who are carriers. (If that's possible?) Long, tedious, time consuming process, but it IS possible.


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> *What's that supposed to mean? *
> 
> I know how recessive traits work. * Good for you! I assume that you also know how many genes are involved in determing the liver color, right? And how they may interact with each other and with other genes, right also? I.E. are there other traits associated with the liver color?*
> 
> ...


 
*It means whatever the reader assumes it means - nothing more, nothing less!*


----------



## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

> Codmaster wrote: Good for you! I assume that you also know how many genes are involved in determing the liver color, right? And how they may interact with each other and with other genes, right also? I.E. are there other traits associated with the liver color?


 
What are the other traits?


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I apologize for flaring your temper because I want the wrong colored dog.

But what else is linked to the liver color, that you KNOW of, not just speculate?


----------



## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Konotashi said:


> I apologize for flaring your temper because I want the wrong colored dog.
> 
> But what else is linked to the liver color, that you KNOW of, not just speculate?


 
Didn'tmind - get whatever color, standard or not that you want? BTW, what does "flaring your temper" mean? never heard that before.

Since I am NOT interested whatsoever in a Liver colored GSD, I have no clue to how it is inherited; or how many genes are involved or any interaction; BUT, IF I were interested in such a dog, then I would make it my business to find out about this anamoly in the color of a GSD (and if there were any other conditions associated with such a dog and it's genetics).

But that is up to you, isn't it?

Good luck in your search!


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Oddly enough, my "other" breed, the Lancashire Heeler, comes in 2 accepted colors, Black and rust or Liver. I have a deposit on a litter that the grandsire on one side and the great grandam on the other are livers. I'm hoping against hope that I end up with a black/rust female. No liver for me, please. I don't know why, but they just look odd to me, the eyes always seem to have a pink rim that looks albino-ish to me. Just a feeling I guess. 

Black and rust-









Liver-


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

msvette2u said:


> I think allergies and skin issues are common, period...but I don't think Chocolate brown is an actual dilution. Many dogs come in chocolate color without it being dilute.
> It would be a dilution if she was fawn or blue fawn.


Actually, most chocolate brown dogs in other breeds are dilutes. Flat coats, chocolate labs, chessies, PWDs, poodles, springers, pointers, heelers, border collies, aussies, kelpies, poms, dobermans, sight hounds, etc.... They are black dogs with a liver dilute, making them chocolate brown. Look at the leather (nose, paw pads, eye rims) and you can tell if a dog is a brown dog or a dilute. If a brown dog, it'll have normal black leather. If a dilute, the leather will be brown as well.

To the OP. If you want good health and working temperament, in a liver dog, than really your only option is going to be to contact every working or Euro show breeder you can find that you like, tell them you want a liver and to have them contact you IF they ever get one. Most will not. As others have said, the gene pool for such dogs is small. While the recessive still exists in some lines, it is not common. For it to happen to exist in the lines of two parents being bred, giving the possibility of a liver pup, is going to be rare. 

And most breeders if they know it exists are going to try to avoid it unless the breeding is far and away better than another they can come up with. If they are looking to breed their female to a male who goes back on X bloodlines, and they find a male going back on X who carries a dilute and one who doesn't, unless there is an overwhelming reason to breed to the former they are going to choose the later. Good breeders don't want to intentionally produce dogs outside of the standard.

And as you've found, you're not going to find a breeder specializing in dilutes who is focused on temperament and health. Partly because if they are focusing on off colors clearly that is their priority, and other things are secondary. And partly because the gene pool for those colors is so small. They aren't likely going to find much breeding stock coming from good, well proven, health tested lines. Most of their breeding stock will come from the same sort of color minded breeder. And with a small gene pool to choose from, focusing on combining recessives, problems are going to occur more often than in the general GSD population. Not because there are health problems directly linked to dilute colors, but because they will always crop up with narrow gene pools and focusing on recessive traits.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Both blue and liver are dilutes of black, but they work in different ways. It was explained to me how the two different genes work, and how they produce their respective colors, but I didn't retain it--perhaps a google search will help. Anyway, a dog can be both blue and liver at the same time--I believe that is what produces the Weimaraner color. I did stumble upon a breeder who is breeding dilute GSDs and trying to produce dogs with both the blue and liver gene--she is calling it "Fawn", I believe. They are butt-ugly dogs, IMO.

Personally, I think blue GSDs are gorgeous, but an ethical breeder will never breed FOR them, and I wouldn't look for my next dog on the basis of color, but I'd certainly be happy to take a blue pup off a good breeder's hands if it came up by accident! That an ethical breeder unexpectedly comes up with a liver pup, is the best you can hope for.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Chris Wild said:


> Look at the leather (nose, paw pads, eye rims) and you can tell if a dog is a brown dog or a dilute. If a brown dog, it'll have normal black leather. If a dilute, the leather will be brown as well.


So do Choc labs come in a dilute as well as a true brown? I know I have at least 2 choc labs that come here for boarding that have black pads, nose, etc. The others have brown(almost pinkish sometimes) pads and nose. 

I guess since I'm about to try to start breeding the Lancashire Heelers I need to learn more about the gene overall.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

bocron said:


> So do Choc labs come in a dilute as well as a true brown? I know I have at least 2 choc labs that come here for boarding that have black pads, nose, etc. The others have brown(almost pinkish sometimes) pads and nose.


Not that I'm aware of, or according to the lab people I know. Chocolates always have brown leather. It could be dark brown, as some are darker brown in color and some lighter, but not actually black. I've never seen a chocolate with anything but brown leather, and out of curiosity I google imaged chocolate labs and every one had brown leather there too.

I wonder if the dogs you've see are in fact a very dark brown? Or possibly sun faded black labs rather than chocolates?


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

bocron said:


> So do Choc labs come in a dilute as well as a true brown? I know I have at least 2 choc labs that come here for boarding that have black pads, nose, etc. The others have brown(almost pinkish sometimes) pads and nose.


Chocolate will always have brown nose leather, pinkish eye rims, and golden to hazel colored eyes. If the nose leather is black, the dog is not a chocolate. Labs do come in a reddish color, called "fox", and that color can have a black nose. Maybe that is what you are seeing.

There are some people now breeding "silver" labs, I'm not sure if it's a blue gene, or a blue/liver combination like a Weimaraner. Those dogs would have blue nose leather.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Oh, I forgot about the "red fox" lab color. That's a likely explanation too. Though as I understand it's really just a shade of yellow, with yellow labs varying from pale cream, almost white, to a pretty intense reddish brown. Just like the different shades in Goldens.


----------



## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

Real red = breeds lik the Redbone Coonhound. They are a red dog with black leather

Red as is seen in Pits, BCs, Aussies, etc are genetically liver


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Chris Wild said:


> Though as I understand it's really just a shade of yellow, with yellow labs varying from pale cream, almost white, to a pretty intense reddish brown. Just like the different shades in Goldens.


Exactly. Here's a good example of the color variation.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Freestep said:


> Chocolate will always have brown nose leather, pinkish eye rims, and golden to hazel colored eyes. If the nose leather is black, the dog is not a chocolate. Labs do come in a reddish color, called "fox", and that color can have a black nose. Maybe that is what you are seeing.
> 
> There are some people now breeding "silver" labs, I'm not sure if it's a blue gene, or a blue/liver combination like a Weimaraner. Those dogs would have blue nose leather.


I'll have to look at the one client I have left. He could be a fox.

We also have a client with a silver lab (sorry, but that is just fugly). From what I have read the "original" silvers were from a breeder who also (coincidentally) bred Weims. This breeder swore there was no cross pollinating going on, but really?
The one we have (named Sterling, so original) totally has a Weim head and face.


----------



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Not sure if the OP has seen this site, but it has a lot of information and pictures of dilute colored GSD's, liver, blue, and "fawn" or "Isabella". NOT recommending this breeder!

BlueDogs - Find Information about Blue, Liver and Isabella colored German Shepherd Dogs!


----------



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Freestep said:


> Not sure if the OP has seen this site, but it has a lot of information and pictures of dilute colored GSD's, liver, blue, and "fawn" or "Isabella". NOT recommending this breeder!
> 
> BlueDogs - Find Information about Blue, Liver and Isabella colored German Shepherd Dogs!


I've come across that site a few times. I like looking at the pictures on there, and I've read through it.


----------

