# AKC & a can of worms



## draggar

I'm going to open a can of worms (so soon?) and I'm sure I'll lose a lot of respect with some members and gain a lot with others.

What is it with AKC and their judging?

The breed standard states "must show confidence" (Seiger, AKC, UKC, etc..) yet I've seen GSDs get breed (and group placements!) that are afraid of the judges! All of my dogs go into the ring like they own it, even wag their tails and NEVER cowe back from a judge.

Plus, what is up with the rear ends? I see so many "show" (and I use the term loosely) GSDs that have their rear ends closer than most toy breeds. I'd hate to see what their hips look like when the dog gets older.

Most GSDs I've seen in the ring would be horrible at what the GSD was bred to do, herd, protect, and be a loyal companion (well, most have that last one down).

Look at the history of the GSD. They were very similar to the other shepherds (Belgian shepherds, Dutch shepherds etc..) until WWII where they got their destinctive coloring (saddle, etc..) and you didn't see the extreme back end until the 70's -80's and primarily in the USA.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Don't blame the AKC ... blame the individual judges.

Judges pick what THEY think it the closest to matching the standard. If enough judges started picking German Shepherds with a pink stripe down their back people would breed for that.

Since most judges don't seem to care about temperament, neither do some breeders. They just want to breed what wins.

I've seen Mals in the ring that lacked confidence but were beautiful to look at. Guess who wins?


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## Superpup

LOL... I am anxiously waiting for this discussion...


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## draggar

> Originally Posted By: Lauri & The GangDon't blame the AKC ... blame the individual judges.(snip)


Acknowldeged, and we can also go as far as to blame the clubs that invite these judges to judge the way that they do.

It's a vicious circle. AKC "approves" the judges, then the clubs choose the judges and do on.



> Quote:I've seen Mals in the ring that lacked confidence but were beautiful to look at. Guess who wins?


I bet I could guess the mal especially if it was ranked.









It's hard to find a dog that excells in working and confirmation (and this is what my wife strives for when choosing puppies and potential mates).


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## draggar

Can't edit my post anymore, I was going to add this:

Edit: Don't get me wrong, there are some good / ethical judges out there who do pay attention to the standards. We were watching the Westminster show a few years ago and a GSD was up for BiS (I think it was BiS but it might have been group) and we knew the judge really liked him. We both agreed that the judge was going to place the GSD.

The judge did one more walk by, put his hand in front of the GSD and caught the GSD off guard and it's head jerked back a little (as if his nose got tapped). We both knew it was over for the GSD that very second.


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## mkennels

I agree I have seen gsds even bite their handlers doing the down and back and and others do great but guess which one wins the class and breed. Alot I have noticed is really (and should not be this way but it) on the other end of the lead.


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## mkennels

> Originally Posted By: DraggarCan't edit my post anymore, I was going to add this:
> 
> Edit: Don't get me wrong, there are some good / ethical judges out there who do pay attention to the standards. We were watching the Westminster show a few years ago and a GSD was up for BiS (I think it was BiS but it might have been group) and we knew the judge really liked him. We both agreed that the judge was going to place the GSD.
> 
> The judge did one more walk by, put his hand in front of the GSD and caught the GSD off guard and it's head jerked back a little (as if his nose got tapped). We both knew it was over for the GSD that very second.


I know which show you are talking about that was a big talk and the dog was handled by Jimmy Moses and by what I heard it did get zapped because of the carpet or I believe he tapped the end of its nose (the judge got too close to letting him smell his hand I believe) but it was the judges fault that made the dog do that


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## Amaruq

*IF* the dog got shocked with static electricity then pulling back should not have mattered as long as he/she recovered. The judge would know if indeed the dog was shocked or spooked. It is very possible that the handler would not know and *could* be making an excuse.


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## draggar

*Re: AKC & a can of worms*



> Originally Posted By: Amaruq*IF* the dog got shocked with static electricity then pulling back should not have mattered as long as he/she recovered. The judge would know if indeed the dog was shocked or spooked. It is very possible that the handler would not know and *could* be making an excuse.


Static shock is very plausible. Westminster is during the winter in NYC - very high rate of static electricity.

Plus, the rug adds into that.

From what it looked like on TV, the judges hand was very close to the dog's nose.


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## DianaM

It's not just this show and it's not just this breed. How many terriers nowadays do you see that looked scared out of their mind? Terriers that were bred to believe they're 200 lb, 36"-at-shoulder dogs loaded with piss, vinegar, and instinct to rock everyone's world are now cringing in fear. And yet, they get put up. It's sad that a dog that comes closest to its breed standard physically but is scared of its own shadow places over one with a few physical faults but stellar temperament, but thank goodness for working and performance-oriented breeding programs! The structure of a dog will not determine if it loves kids, nor will the ear set contribute to whether a dog is fear aggressive, and because we all live in litigious societies temperament should really be placed above all else. What good is a beautiful and healthy dog if it tries to attack everyone it sees or hides behind its owner if a child shows up?

As to the rears, I just don't get it. They walk with their necks and heads straight up and the rears straight down. I really just don't get it. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/55.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/467782.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/124262.html

Now these are very nice dogs, great structure, excellent overall look. Showlines, of course, and I'm sure they move nicely. IMO the exaggerated flying trot gait is displeasing but a true, balanced flying trot (one that any well built breed can accomplish) is wonderful to watch. But again, I don't care what it looks like so long it can move efficiently without much movement waste, turn on a dime (how many of these American lines seem to be unable to do that..), be agile as a ferret on crack and have the completely bombproof and amazing temperament that makes the GSD what it is. If all that is there, it is beautiful regardless of lines or type. I have seen dogs of all lines that I like; the common theme is moderation and closeness to the TRUE standard, not the one idealized in the minds of some breeders and judges.


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## kbigge

> Originally Posted By: DianaM agile as a ferret on crack


Wow - the mental picture that conjures up made me laugh out loud. I needed that!


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## denwil2007

a breeder judge in Amer was telling me of a Can judge who put up a female whose tail curled around to her back. I aksed him if that judge forget he was judging gsd's and thought this was the husky ring...

A lot of judges try out for many breeds, without really having a solid foundation for any particular breed. They don't really know the standard, and they judge by handler, or what teythink is pretty, or what they remember Rin Tin Tin looked like when they were a child. 
Most show folks dislike all breed shows, because they feel that most of the judges wouldn't know a pure gsd much less one that conforms to the standard. 

For example, people will call anything with pricked ears a gsd mix. 

Now it's a shame on the breeders who, instead of avoiding those judges,( lowering entries and forcing the clubs to hire a decent judge) show their junk that they couldn't get passed by anyone else.


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## denwil2007

And please don't get me started on temperment. I've handled for some folks, and taken some squirrelly dogs into the ring, sight unseen. 

I almost broke my neck, and I wish I had been warned. I couldn't even grab the leash w/o the dog jumping in fright. Forget showing the bite. This was not due to rough handling. Everytime a took a step back or a round her she spooked. 

If I was the owner, I'd have that girl spayed.


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## draggar

> Originally Posted By: chasethedoga breeder judge in Amer was telling me of a Can judge who put up a female whose tail curled around to her back. I aksed him if that judge forget he was judging gsd's and thought this was the husky ring...


You wouldn't believe how bad this problem is in the collie ring here in south Florida. You'd swear you were watching miscolored Akitas (except my collie). There are also a lot of Belgians that have the curled tail, too but not many GSDs.


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## Xeph

*Re: AKC & a can of worms*

The Westminster GSD you're talking about is a bitch. Her name is Geneva, and she is retired now  I've met her, and she's quite sound and sweet, shows well, and is very even keel in temperament. I wouldn't doubt that she DID get zapped, as she's not known to shy from a judge.

I personally don't care for any of the PDB dogs posted...too straight in front and no turn of stifle.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/398433.html - This is a rather nice showline male that I'd love to be holding the lead of


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## EastGSD

Im sure all the dogs and all the judges in SV shows are absolutely perfect....

JMC

Cherri


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## DianaM

Just as bad, sadly. Those sieger show videos were painful. Conformation shows as a whole just don't do any good for many breeds. Yes, there needs to be a physical standard to be met but ability and brains need to come first. Sleeve-feeding gaining ratings of "TSB pronounced.." oh yeah.







Of the German showlines, I hate seeing cowhocks and east-west stances. Ridiculously prevalent, too. And the backs/croups/toplines. 

Cherri, does the dachshund standard all ALL colors as acceptable? I've seen pieds and merles and tans and speckleds and chocolate-banana-splits and I was wondering if all are accepted. If so, that's pretty neat and good on them for not minding much about color.


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## Brightelf

Sigh. I have seen some niiiiice Kirschental dogs here. I tend to like dogs with the heaviest bone-- just my preference, bordering on "coarse." 

Balancing out how bad it is when the AKC show judges sway the way the AKC standard is interpreted, is that working dog judges get planefare paid for to come over from Europe, accomodations paid for here-- and end up being VERY generous to the host club's dogs with ratings. Judges are people. There is crookedness in the show world for sure. But I think one can find a show dog with ideal nerves and drive level (exempting the extreme) if one looks. Too bad the looking is not so simple as it once was. But very nice when we find dogs with reliable minds and good structure in the same body.

Many of the Dachsunds here incidentally, probably nobody in USA would want. No only no newfangled colors, but they have still got the original temperament: Assertive, domineering tyrants with wills of iron, hearts of gold, kisses for their fave people, big dog barks, and more actual true aggression and fire than is seen in the most spunky Dachsies in USA. Okay.. not everyone wants one like that. but I can't help admire them. Longer legs and often wirecoats in the wild-boar colors.. nice!


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## denwil2007

Yes, there are some out there, like Caisson kennels. Temperment is the easiest thing to lose and the hardest to get back. I guess that's why I don't have any females and don't breed, because I just have't met one yet who had good bone, and solid nerves that I'd want to show/breed with.


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## Scarlett

I don't disagree that there are temperament problems which either go unnoticed by judges (not much of a judge in my opinion who can't see it) or is just overlooked in the AKC or CKC rings. There are many good and sound dogs out there though, unfortunately it's the bad ones who are remembered and cause for all the hoopla.

But I have seen some atrocious judging in SV style shows, at least in my area, by judges brought in from Germany. A number of us used to enter a dog or two to support the local club and just have a day out with GSD's, no matter the bloodlines. One year my dog who is now 12 was entered in one of the young male classes, can't remember which but under 2 years. He was placed behind the dog who won the class. The dog who won did not have his mouth examined as he attempted to escape the judge, kept his tail glued to his belly - he may have had testicles under there, who knew? And he backed behind the handler on the gun test. Class winner.

Funny thing is, his owner entered him hoping for just this type of display as she had been attempting to return this dog to the breeder because he was unsound, and the breeder had refused to acknowledge the problems. His owner figured if she put him out there for others to see she'd at least have witnesses to his fear and lack of nerve. She ended up with a class win, go figure.

And yes, my Canadian bred dog and the others in the class were gun sure, steady on their exams and clean and balanced in their movement, by no means were any of them more extreme than German bred dogs in the class (many people have asked over the years if my dog had German lines). Overall, a pretty souring experience when obvious spooks are given the wins in the SV style ring.


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## Casa del Mango

*Re: AKC & a can of worms*

I have a German Highlines bitch I regularly show AKC and I get really frustrated sometimes... bitches I see shying away noticeably are placed by BREEDER-JUDGES and my German girl is dumped because she not the "American" type.
Granted, we are always the most popular GSD OUTSIDE the show ring - spectators ALWAYS come up to meet her and can't believe the very extreme dogs are put up over her... she was very highly rated by a German judge at a Seiger show and easily got her UKC Championship... and she actually works for a living... but I digress...
I have seen the Judge's Education that the GSDCA uses - it DOES NOT promote the extreme angulation that the judges typically put up, so I have a difficult time understanding how/why it happens.
I can't imagine such extremely angulated animals (walking so "low" that their pasterns and hocks touch the ground) being able to work sheep all day let alone get over a SchH jump... why is it that we have encouraged such a horrible caricature to become the "norm"?


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## EastGSD

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> Cherri, does the dachshund standard all ALL colors as acceptable? I've seen pieds and merles and tans and speckleds and chocolate-banana-splits and I was wondering if all are accepted. If so, that's pretty neat and good on them for not minding much about color.


I have no idea Diana. As far as I know piebald are accepted and their was a big stink about a misunderstanding in the standard some years back that kept them out of the ring. All I know is that there are approx 119 color variations in the Dachshund breed.

Cherri


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## EastGSD

> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> 
> Many of the Dachsunds here incidentally, probably nobody in USA would want. No only no newfangled colors, but they have still got the original temperament: Assertive, domineering tyrants with wills of iron, hearts of gold, kisses for their fave people, big dog barks, and more actual true aggression and fire than is seen in the most spunky Dachsies in USA. Okay.. not everyone wants one like that. but I can't help admire them. Longer legs and often wirecoats in the wild-boar colors.. nice!


Ohhh not so. I have some fav kennels in Germany that I would love to import from. Standard coats....beautiful, still hunting....wonderful, strong looking dogs.....









Cherri


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## Deejays_Owner

<span style='font-size: 14pt'>*Casar del Mango, Very good post!!!*</span>

You may like the Jim Moses Interview this stuck out for me.



> Quote:if you watch them, they walk on their hock and their rear foot, like it’s all one bone. The same with the front feet and the pastern. When they trot, their foot and pastern hit the ground at the same time. These are dogs - if they had to jump over these little ring gates to get in to be shown - they’d never get shown."


So Advanced OB Degrees are out of the question as Jumping is a major portion.


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## denwil2007

> Originally Posted By: Casa del Mango
> I have seen the Judge's Education that the GSDCA uses - it DOES NOT promote the extreme angulation that the judges typically put up, so I have a difficult time understanding how/why it happens.
> I can't imagine such extremely angulated animals (walking so "low" that their pasterns and hocks touch the ground) being able to work sheep all day let alone get over a SchH jump... why is it that we have encouraged such a horrible caricature to become the "norm"?


Yes, I wonder why, why , why!!!! How did we let this happen!


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## draggar

> Originally Posted By: EastGSD
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: Brightelf
> 
> Many of the Dachsunds here incidentally, probably nobody in USA would want. No only no newfangled colors, but they have still got the original temperament: Assertive, domineering tyrants with wills of iron, hearts of gold, kisses for their fave people, big dog barks, and more actual true aggression and fire than is seen in the most spunky Dachsies in USA. Okay.. not everyone wants one like that. but I can't help admire them. Longer legs and often wirecoats in the wild-boar colors.. nice!
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhh not so. I have some fav kennels in Germany that I would love to import from. Standard coats....beautiful, still hunting....wonderful, strong looking dogs.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cherri
Click to expand...

I think the same goes with many breeds, it's just that a lot of the people in the US don't have 1% of the knowledge about dogs than the least educated person there.

Most people think it would be too expensive to import a dog or it "doesn't look right" so they either go to a shelter (I recommend a shelter to a lot of people actually) or a puppy store (which I never recommend). Most people think APRI = AKC (and they think AKC is the highest level of registries...).


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## chruby

> Originally Posted By: chasethedogAnd please don't get me started on temperment. I've handled for some folks, and taken some squirrelly dogs into the ring, sight unseen.
> 
> I almost broke my neck, and I wish I had been warned. I couldn't even grab the leash w/o the dog jumping in fright. Forget showing the bite. This was not due to rough handling. Everytime a took a step back or a round her she spooked.
> 
> If I was the owner, I'd have that girl spayed.


I have said it before on this board and I'll say it again that the GSD Nationals was a real eye opener for me. Ran my dog throught the temperament test and watched a whole lot of jumpy spooky dogs run through as well. Then later or the next day watched them competing in the ring and placing. Very sad for the breed.


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## catherinetnc

"Most GSDs I've seen in the ring would be horrible at what the GSD was bred to do, herd, protect, and be a loyal companion (well, most have that last one down)." 

Geneva, who won best of breed at Westminster, was Dallas' daughter. Dallas was up for BIS in 2003, having won Best in Group. Below is a wonderful description of Dallas by one of his former trainers that counters the idea that show dogs can't do anything but "stack:"

"I had the great pleasure of knowing Dallas very well. He and his owner trained with me the to earn his herding titles. This dog was awesome. One of the best tending dogs I've ever worked with. He easily could have done HGH had his owner been interested. As it was he is the only Best in Show winner in America that has a working trial title, he earned his HSCs at age nine. He had wonderful stock sense, incredable work ethic and that willingness to please that characterizes a great tending dog. And he could take a hard correction, responding with "oh that is what you meant" Great temperment. He has produced a number of progeny that are tending sheep as well. He also has changed the look of the AMerican dog to one of much more type, better feet, less angulation, improved secondary sex characteristics. He sired about 120 litters, produced at least seven select animals, about ten best in show dogs and more conformation champions in the US than any other dog ever. His death was very hard for his owners as he was their house dog. He did pass in his sleep, they found him dead in the morning when they got up. His sire passed away at seven, however his dam lived to be nearly 15 and his half brother Heart Throb is still around and is fifteen."


NYT:
"Last year at Westminster, Ch. Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes, who is handled by Moses and answers to the name Dallas, was eliminated from the herding group judged by Irene Bivin. 

Since that time, Dallas has gone on to become the winningest dog in the country, making him one of the odds-on favorites to win the coveted title of best in show this year at the 127th installment of Westminster, the Super Bowl of dog shows. "

Just thought I'd share- ;>)
Catherine


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## denwil2007

Oh my show dog herds, and he looks beautiful doing it. He runs miles with me and hardly breaks a sweat. He is not gun shy, I know this for a fact, and doesn't cower at storms or fireworks. 

I wish the temperment tests were more prerequisit of showing.

He is a Dallas grandson. 

Matter of fact, the only thing one has to do is have a dog with no DQ faults. That leaves a lot of interpretation of the "Standard" (AKC has no standard, the GSDCA does) as to what we call a show dog.

You've seen my ger/amer male. Most all breed people love him and think he's great. The GSD show folks don't give him a second glance. Personal interpretation causes inconsistancies.


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## Casa del Mango

Obviously interpretation is the biggest part of it - which is why I truly think the Am judges REALLY need to learn from the judges in the country of origin - Germany. Am judges have gotten so far from the original breed, both in type and temperament, that it is ridiculous. The Am show GSD folks look down their noses at everything else, but fail to truly "see" what they are showing, promoting and breeding. Literally NO ONE else in the world wants one. People point out all the failings and faults of the German Seiger show system, however, the West German highline dogs are the ones exported all over the world, and in highest demand. There is certainly a reason for this. Personally, if feel it is because they are perhaps the closest thing to what people envision and expect from a good GSD.
What are the Am GSD show folks producing? Yes, Dallas was a really nice dog (and actually, I am considering buying some frozen semen for my German girl - gasp- to do an Am-German litter) and produced some really nice dogs, but are they in demand in any OTHER venue besides the AKC All Breed ring? The GSD "Specialty" folks don't even like them. So what good is it?
No Dallas kids (that I have ever seen) doing SchH (and I have been in the sport for 15 years, both in the northeast US and now down in FL). I have seen 1 Herding. 1. Jimmy Moses claims Dallas was worked in all three phases. Yes? With who? Where are the videos/pics? I would certainly BRAG about my Am GSD having success in that venue if I was doing it.
None that I know of doing police/military work. None that I know of even doing Service Work (and I amnot picking on Dallas here - I mean Am dogs in general). I would LOVE to know if there are any Am dogs actually working. Aren't we Americans supposed to make things better/faster/stronger?
Honestly, the reason I went with a German highlines dog myself was because I knew, with the pedigree, generations of SchH titles, hips/elbows certified and breed surveys, what I would get. Unlike the American dogs, where you could get a really good one, but are just as likely to get a fear-aggressive mess, as there are just no standards when it comes to breeding.
I need a SOLID temperament (I am handicapped and my bitch is my Mobility Assistance Service Dog) capable of doing Times Square in the morning and SchH in the evening, with some Herding thrown in and maybe Agility, depending on whether or not *I* can handle it!








She also gets shown AKC, UKC (already earned her U-CH), IABCA and in the Seiger shows (got her SG1 as a puppy). She passes the temperament part of the AKC ring like a dream, but still gets beaten by Am bitches with egg-beater movement in the rear, chiefly because she is not as extreme or feminine and looks very obviously German. A few judges have put her up over Am bitches - those who truly love the breed and know correct structure and movement - but those are the same judges that the Am breeders will not enter under again...








She has been praised by German judges and some of the GSDs leading authorities in this country, and I am flattered, but I am also frustrated to see what has become of the breed in this country and even more distressed to think of the direction in which it is headed.
Truly, I think there needs to be a decision - either we go ahead and re-direct the GSD in this country or we go ahead and make the Am GSD a different breed - as at this point it basically is. Worldwide it can no longer function in the roles for which it was bred - it seems to be nothing more than a flashy side-gait and a refined head - a pretty shell with not much under the hood.
A creation for the showring.
It pains me greatly to think of what has been done to such an incredible breed.


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## denwil2007

Yes, inconsistancy in breed type and temperment with Amer. dogs. Makes me almost want to breed myself. Of course then I might get dogs I can't show, but at least I would be happy with them. 

By the by, there are ger/amer dogs in the specialty ring, we've had this conversation before here. It sure did Darby-Dan some good. No matter what folks say about him and politics, we're all breeding to his Jim dogs. I for one, would love one, and there are others trying to breed something back into their amer lines. Whether or ot they can, time will tell.


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## Casa del Mango

*Re: AKC & a can of worms*

I like Darby-Dan as well and GSDCA Judge's Ed and breeder/judge Helen Gleason is also doing Am-German breedings under the "Nocturne" kennel name. I just hope it isn't too little/too late... and I still think the GSDCA should adopt some of the SV's "requirements" for breeding - ortho certifications, definately, but I also think dogs need to pass a minimum of a title and breed survey to be bred. Shouldn't we be a little more selective with our stock?


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## denwil2007

Yes, at the very minimum, there should be temperment tested at specialty shows, not just Nationals. 

I just don't see show people adhering to the SV's way of doing things. It's like Americans freak out anytime they're told what to do. But I think it's for the betterment of the breed we love.


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## Casa del Mango

Actually, I think that there are MANY organizations that impose "rules" that have to be adhered to in order to register offspring... thoroughbred horses, straight egyptian arabians - also public demand forces this to some degree - not too many people who want a straight egyptian arab "settle" for an unregistered half-Arab... so perhaps part of it is public education... it seems now even "pet" people are looking for import lines - no longer are they settling for "Am GSD" - even importing their own through internet resources, so some education has sunken in - that the public is likely to get a nicer GSD from proven parents than the "extreme" Am dogs they see paraded around in the AKC ring...
So if the "Am" breeders are freaking out about being told what to do, they can continue with their "North Am GSD" as a separate breed with no regs on breeding, and a separate breed, the Euro GSD - can compete in separate rings and be required to achieve minimum titles, ortho certs and breed survey ratings in order to meet requirements to register offspring. 
Who do you think the public will pick???


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## EastGSD

All I can say is that the ambred has been beaten up enough on this board and the topic has been revisited many times bringing to light the reasons things cannot be done, wont be or why things are not as people think they are that I doubt highly that you will get any type of conversation with ambred breeders at all. You can find the answers you seek by searching the boards archives.

On a personal note;

I OWN GERMAN Shepherd Dogs thank you and have no desire to have their name changed


Cherri


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## Casa del Mango

Revisiting old conversations is not necessarily going to DO anything... the way things get done is for conversation to motivate actions. Perhaps bringing it up again will do that - my reviewing other people's opinions will not.
I would prefer that breeding practices change, rather than the breeds split, but at some point things get SO different it's really no longer the same breed... look at the Akita - according to FCI the American Akita is so different it is actually a different breed - the Greater Japanese Spitz.
To me, if there are no standards for breeding, what is the point?
And, I would think the decision may be taken out of our hands by the FCI, too. I know the SV is adamant that the GSDCA needs to revamp their Standard to match the one they have written - if that doesn't happen, I am sure the SV will likely petition FCI. Or deny registry of Am dogs. Interesting to think where that would lead...


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## EastGSD

Sara, this conversation has taken place many times, I suggest you search for and read those threads. While you may not realize it your comments *are* insulting to many breeders on this board.







I was an ambred breeder and they are insulting to me.







I am not going to get into this discussion with you as we have done it before in other threads and you can read various points of views as well as defenses etc in those threads.









I happen to think there are many nice American bred German Shepherds so no, I am not going to support what you are saying in yours posts







and many others will probably just skip over it altogether.









JMO
Cherri


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## Andaka

I have said it before, and I will very likely have to say it again, not all AKC American show line dogs look or act that way. Yes, there are problems with the breed on both sides of the ocean. Bashing either group helps no one.

I have a beautiful AKC dog. He is everything a GSD should be -- proud, noble, brave, and beautiful. He is a top show dog, my service dog, and my best friend (just not much of a conversationalist!). He would have had more training titles, but life got in the way. I am tired of people trying to make it seem like he is not a "real" GSD because he is not of european bloodlines.

I have also been thinking -- we raise our puppies differently. My puppies learn not to bite because Mom is a weanie. Because of health issues I cannot play tug games and actually teach my dogs not to pull things away from me. I have had friends with Shutzhund prospects that had to pry the pups from my clothes because they didn't want to correct the pups for biting. These are only a few of the differences.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Thank you Daphne and Cherri!! I was avoiding posting on this thread because it is insulting. 

I don't breed, don't want to. I currently have 3 GSD's.

One of my "German" GSD's is reactive and sharp. Very poor temper, sound sensitive, gun shy and a spook.

My Am showline is solid as a ROCK! Kayos ROCKS!!!! 

My "German" GSD puppy, is a bit shyer than I would like but is going to be fine.

They are GSD's.


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## Deejays_Owner

Daphne & Cherri 

What is your take on the Jim Moses Interview, I posted?



> Originally Posted By: Deejays_Owner
> Jim Moses Interview


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## EastGSD

I don't know Brian. Just glanced through it. Most of my knowledge comes from people in the breed even longer than Jimmy and I actually have the balls to be a friend of Frank Tates lol And I try and speak with him often which is not easy lol

We all can have our opinions, we just have to be careful about using them generally against entire populations because you know Jimmy still handles those dogs that he is speaking against in the interview because it is his job....

I do have to ask the question as to how Jimmy knows much about Schh since he spends his weekeends doing his job as well as his weekdays conditioning those dogs and working with his own....How is he to know about the things he is commenting on? Just a thought that occurred to me, I have awesome respect for Jimmy myself, but he is not a god.

Cherri


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## Andaka

Jimmy Moses is one of the reasons that the American show GSD is in the pickle we are in now. He will show whatever anyone will pay him to show, and win with it. He is the only person that has mentioned Schutzhund and Dallas in the same breath. Dallas was an accomplished herding dog, and has produced several progeny that can work stock as well.

However, no dog is without faults, and it disturbs me that the American show breeders are not only breeding to Dallas, but linebreeding on him as well. Soon he will be appearing 4-5 times in a pedigree. That is too much.

As too some of the other comments he made about the dogs not being able to jump the ring fencing if they had to -- well, Mr. Moses has shown a lot of those dogs too.


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## Deejays_Owner

*Re: AKC & a can of worms*

Yes Sara

This conversation has taken place many times, like Cherri has said.
If you do a search, I posts a link to Dan Smith that also calls them American Shepherd









On the database they are know as American Show Shepherd.


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## VKristallaugen4

All I am gonna say is WOW!!!!


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## Xeph

> Quote:it disturbs me that the American show breeders are not only breeding to Dallas, but linebreeding on him as well. Soon he will be appearing 4-5 times in a pedigree. That is too much.


It's Lance all over again.



> Quote:On the database they are know as American Show Shepherd (ASS for short).


Only by the snobs who seek to insult and think they're better than everybody else...


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## Andaka

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> Cherri, does the dachshund standard all ALL colors as acceptable? I've seen pieds and merles and tans and speckleds and chocolate-banana-splits and I was wondering if all are accepted. If so, that's pretty neat and good on them for not minding much about color.


I'm not Cherri, but I do own a champion Standard Longhaired Dachshund male. Those colors are only acceptable for the minis. No show/working standard sized dogs come in those colors -- only red, sable (red with a black overlay on the head and shoulders), and black/tan for the smooths and longhaired. The wire-haired have their own set of colors such as fawn and boar.


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## EastGSD

Hey Daphne can you point me in the direction of of some good Mini Dachie breeder sites or information sites please?? So many BYBers out there







I would like a show bitch...

Cherri


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## Lauri & The Gang

As I said, it all comes back to the judges.

And, as exhibitors, you need to KNOW your judges.

If you are thinking about entering a show and you've seen the judge put up a dog with bad temperament - don't enter.

The best way to let the AKC and clubs know how you feel about a judge is with your $$$.


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## Casa del Mango

My point was not to insult anyone, of course, though that often happens when people are sensitive about a polarizing topic. And if you all noticed, I generalized about MY OWN experiences in the ring down here in FL. And after reviewing the "multiple times" the topic has been brought up, nothing has been resolved to anyone's satisfaction, thus, further dialog is helpful.
There are good dogs and bad on both sides - I am simply saying I am disappointed about the fact that we (who are supposedly "the best" and SO ethically conscious) do not maintain even minimum standards for breeding, to the detriment of a breed we say we love.
Just a thought.
Don't worry, I won't share anymore thoughts so as not to offend anyone.


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## Chicagocanine

*Re: AKC & a can of worms*



> Originally Posted By: Casa del MangoI have a German Highlines bitch I regularly show AKC and I get really frustrated sometimes... bitches I see shying away noticeably are placed by BREEDER-JUDGES and my German girl is dumped because she not the "American" type.


One of the breeders I was looking at (to get a puppy from) is "American" show type and she has therapy dog titles on all her dogs.


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## Kayos and Havoc

Yeah my really shy American bitch is working on a VST and hence the CT (Champion Tracker). She also is a therapy dog and has a few obedience titles too. Only reason she has no agility titles is her hips. (She just had a THR see health).

And Sara, this is not an issue that will be resolved here. I have both American and German lines and I love them all. But you know..... my 2 German line males are "spookier" than my American bitch. My rescue male is really spooky. My billion dollar pup is pretty solid but not as solid as my bitch.


You just can't generalize.


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## Sophia4

*Re: AKC & a can of worms*

I am new to both GSD's and still in the thinking stage about conformation. But, couldn't a simple temperament test be added? Something not based on opinion? Seems to me that the temperament described in this thread wouldn't even make a good family dog, much less a working dog. 

I do know Akitas. I read that in Japan, the judge chooses the two dogs closest to the standard. The two dogs are placed facing each other 10-ish feet apart, and the dog which backs up loses. No opinions.


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## Xeph

The GSDCA doesn't want a mandatory test. The membership says no to that kind of stuff


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## DianaM

What in the world could their reasoning be for turning down a mandatory temperament test when GSDs are on the exclusion list for many insurance companies?


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## Andaka

> Originally Posted By: XephThe GSDCA doesn't want a mandatory test. The membership says no to that kind of stuff


That is not completely true. The GSDCA has asked that all judges of GSD's perform a loose lead temperament test. They even sent out packets to all AKC judges, and any judge asked to judge a National or Futurity must give the temperament test as described.

As taken from the GSDCA Policy and Procedure Manual as found on the GADCA website:Loose Leash Examination To Evaluate Temperament: The loose-leash exam will be the first contact the dog has with the judge. The judge stands in the center of the show ring and the individual dog is brought to a pre-determined spot in the ring on a loose leash. No command of `Stay' or `Hold' is given by the handler. The dog stands free and away from the handler and is not posed. The Judge then approaches the dog from 6-10 feet away in a firm but non-aggressive manner, usually talking to the dog at the same time. The dog should not be stared at or stalked. If the dog cannot be approached or slinks behind his owner, the dog is dismissed from the ring. The dog should either stand firm and have eye contact with the Judge or wander around at the end of the leash totally disregarding the Judge. The Judge should be able to pat the German Shepherd dog and the dog' s reactions should range from total disinterest to inquisitiveness or outright friendliness. The dog is then stacked and ready for the individual examination by the Judge.' It is extremely important that the loose leash examination take place prior to any other physical contact with the Judge. There should never by any feeling that the dog is being `stalked' or that the Judge is being aggressive to the dog. This examination will probably add 30 to 40 seconds to the schedule for each dog.


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## Xeph

Yes, but honestly Daphne, how is that a real temperament test? And the GSDCA has asked...I can't tell you the number of times I've gone to shows and the test was not performed. And the number of dogs that have passed this "test" even though their response was to shrink away and avoid being touched


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## Sophia4

Are the judges bribed? Why would the judges be so biased?
(I am not doubting the truth, I just can't wrap my mind around the reason they would ignore a basic test)

If bribing is done, do baked goods work?


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## Andaka

> Originally Posted By: XephYes, but honestly Daphne, how is that a real temperament test? And the GSDCA has asked...I can't tell you the number of times I've gone to shows and the test was not performed. And the number of dogs that have passed this "test" even though their response was to shrink away and avoid being touched


It may not be a real "test", but you cannot perform a real temperament test in a show ring. Even the SV does their test outside of the ring. No gunshots in an aluminum building. Still have to judge 25 dogs per hour. Some judges are afraid of being bitten, or embarassing the "big name handler" that just brought them a big entry. Judges get paid by the club to judge -- for most it is $5 per dog. See how easy it becomes to over look some things -- even temperament. 

A good judge will know the difference most of the time anyway. And the bad ones won't, no matter what we tell them to do. So...support the good judges who penalize poor temperament just like you would the ones who like sables, etc.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: XephYes, but honestly Daphne, how is that a real temperament test?


It's not a real temperament test, no. But at least it's a start. Better than nothing. The sad number of dogs who would fail that test shows that it would have some value. Boot those dogs out of the ring, lable them unbreedable, and there is immediate improvement in the gene pool. Then once the door is opened for temperament testing and people have adjusted to the whole concept of having temperament testing, better testing can follow in the future.

A very small step, but nonetheless at least it's a step in the right direction.


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## Xeph

I agree in that regard Chris...but judges aren't excusing the dogs that should be excused :-( It has rendered that small test worthless. On top of that, they either DON'T do the test, or put up the dog they couldn't even touch because it was a nice mover.


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## RightDog

The GSDCA offers a very good Temperament Test that is very similar to the ATTS test and anyone who cares about their breeding stock should take advantage of it. This is performed at separate events not within the show ring.
For AKC requirements, a temp test rule has to be universally applied to all. Many other breeds do not want one. But as a GSD breeder, I definitely want my dogs evaluated. And I would hope that everyone would.
Ruth
http://www.RightDog.com


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## Kayos and Havoc

Absolutely!! I test all of mine. HAve done Havoc yet as I have not seen one offered in the PNW for a while and he is just 18 months. But rest assured I will. 

Kayos my "spooky" American bitch passed with a 31 of 33. Max was never tested as a he is a rescue and I know he cannot pass with his nerves. The gunshot test would really terrify him and there is no reason to inflict that on him.

I expect Havoc to pass easily.


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## mjbgsd

Interesting reading.


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## Samba

There are poor temperaments in all lines. Not everyone who breeds has the same standard for temperaments. Testing is a good idea. I think that is why some countries have such built into breeding systems. Even with careful selection genetics roulette still deals a bad hand at times.


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## K9WolfAlpha

DianaM said:


> It's not just this show and it's not just this breed. How many terriers nowadays do you see that looked scared out of their mind? Terriers that were bred to believe they're 200 lb, 36"-at-shoulder dogs loaded with piss, vinegar, and instinct to rock everyone's world are now cringing in fear. And yet, they get put up. It's sad that a dog that comes closest to its breed standard physically but is scared of its own shadow places over one with a few physical faults but stellar temperament, but thank goodness for working and performance-oriented breeding programs! The structure of a dog will not determine if it loves kids, nor will the ear set contribute to whether a dog is fear aggressive, and because we all live in litigious societies temperament should really be placed above all else. What good is a beautiful and healthy dog if it tries to attack everyone it sees or hides behind its owner if a child shows up?
> 
> As to the rears, I just don't get it. They walk with their necks and heads straight up and the rears straight down. I really just don't get it.
> 
> Fanto vom Hirschel
> Ellie Vom Alvelhaus
> Geronimo vom Olympus
> 
> Now these are very nice dogs, great structure, excellent overall look. Showlines, of course, and I'm sure they move nicely. IMO the exaggerated flying trot gait is displeasing but a true, balanced flying trot (one that any well built breed can accomplish) is wonderful to watch. But again, I don't care what it looks like so long it can move efficiently without much movement waste, turn on a dime (how many of these American lines seem to be unable to do that..), be agile as a ferret on crack and have the completely bombproof and amazing temperament that makes the GSD what it is. If all that is there, it is beautiful regardless of lines or type. I have seen dogs of all lines that I like; the common theme is moderation and closeness to the TRUE standard, not the one idealized in the minds of some breeders and judges.


When was the last time an American breeder mixed in a German dog? Like never. The judges decide and the dogs are supposed to walk like a TN walking horse. That's what I was told by a lifetime American show breeder. The judges award these dogs and the breeders follow in order to get ribbons to sell puppies. It's all about the money honey,


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## Fodder

K9WolfAlpha said:


> When was the last time an American breeder mixed in a German dog? Like never. The judges decide and the dogs are supposed to walk like a TN walking horse. That's what I was told by a lifetime American show breeder. The judges award these dogs and the breeders follow in order to get ribbons to sell puppies. It's all about the money honey,


this thread is well over a decade old.


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