# Why do you train in SchH?



## W.Oliver

If SchH is a breed test, and you are not a breeder, then why train in SchH? 

If only breeders were to train/title in SchH to determine breed worthiness, who would breeders sell their dogs to?


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## Doc

W.Oliver said:


> If SchH is a breed test, and you are not a breeder, then why train in SchH?
> 
> If only breeders were to train/title in SchH to determine breed worthiness, who would breeders sell their dogs to?


Since it isn't a breed test, then why train in Sch H? How's you puppy Wayne?


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## W.Oliver

Doc said:


> Since it isn't a breed test, then why train in Sch H? How's you puppy Wayne?


The puppy is amazing....I am confused, and feel very uncool.

My view is where many are allowed to attempt and fail, regard and respect are cultivated. Where many are denied simply the attempt, scorn and ridicule are propagated.

We talk about public awareness of protection/bite work and what a well rounded GSD is, and yet we take an elitist mentality to SchH for fear of watering it down....when in fact, it is not participation that weakens SchH, it is money and self-serving corruption that forsakes the the breed and has watered-down SchH.


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## Doc

W.Oliver said:


> The puppy is amazing....I am confused, and feel very uncool.
> 
> My view is where many are allowed to attempt and fail, regard and respect are cultivated. Where many are denied simply the attempt, scorn and ridicule are propagated.
> 
> We talk about public awareness of protection/bite work and what a well rounded GSD is, and yet we take an elitist mentality to SchH for fear of watering it down....when in fact, it is not participation that weakens SchH, it is money and self-serving corruption that forsakes the the breed and has watered-down SchH.


By George Wayne, I think you've got it. I think I might agree with some of what you said - I think.:crazy:


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## Jason L

Wayne, for me personally the appeal of SchH is in the training. That's why I don't really have a major issue if people want to train an off breed or showline dog (sorry to drag THAT thread back in yours lol).


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## Doc

Sports Entertainment.


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## DunRingill

W.Oliver said:


> My view is where many are allowed to attempt and fail, regard and respect are cultivated. Where many are denied simply the attempt, scorn and ridicule are propagated.


That's an interesting statement. 

Is it good to baby dogs thru the titles, or make it a real test and make passing a real accomplishment? 

A schutzhund trainer said to me, he has no respect for AKC titles because any dog can get one. He can't be bothered with a title that a toy poodle can also earn. His statement, not mine! I told him that unless he actually TRIES, he has no idea if he or his dog are capable of getting a UD. I find the UD title a very worthwhile pursuit....it's certainly not a "gimme" title, tho there are some who would like to make it easier.


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## W.Oliver

Jason L said:


> Wayne, for me personally the appeal of SchH is in the training. That's why I don't really have a major issue if people want to train an off breed or showline dog (sorry to drag THAT thread back in yours lol).


No worries, drag away. I can only mirror your comment. I am a GSD guy to the bone, but I enjoy seeing the other breeds work. I will even be happy to watch you work your Mal someday, although I think Ike has you pretty busy for the moment.


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## Liesje

I train in SchH because it exposes things about my dog that I can't really have tested and exposed anywhere else (but is not the *only* venue for this). Also I find it complementary to the other training we do (agility, flyball, SDA) and complementary to my overall style of training and raising a dog. I do it because myself and the dogs enjoy it. I believe that drive is inherent/genetic; Schutzhund gives us a way to channel those drives into something "positive", and teaches us how to control them.

Also, aside from all that sappy ideal stuff, I just personally like doing it. I like my club members, they are my friends. There is a social aspect to it. Unlike other sports/venues, SchH is the best "bang for the buck". Three phases and sometimes 6 hours. I like variety.


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## Jason L

DunRingill said:


> A schutzhund trainer said to me, he has no respect for AKC titles because any dog can get one. He can't be bothered with a title that a toy poodle can also earn.


What!? A toy poodle can't heel, sit, down, stand, retrieve, recall? 

Amazing what "trainers" say.


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## Vandal

The thread was started BECAUSE of the other thread Jason. Clearly, he wants to keep talking about it. 

I train ALL KINDS of breeds in SchH. Currently just started an American Bulldog and his owner who just joined my club. My only requirement is that the dog has the desire to do what SchH is and in my club, it IS Schutzhund, not "Extreme Retrieving" like what the Golden is doing. If you bring your working line GSD to my club and he is not interested, I might help you for a bit to see if maybe the dog will mature and show some more natural ability but if he doesn't, it's time to get a dog who does and find something your dog LIKES.
I will always be an advocate for the dogs, I sure am not doing this to satify the whims and emotional insecurities of the people.


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## W.Oliver

DunRingill said:


> Is it good to baby dogs thru the titles, or make it a real test and make passing a real accomplishment?


I do not believe it is acceptable to "baby" a dog, regardless of the breed, thru to a title....it diminishes the value. Allowing them to train and fail, builds character and respect. Utilization of resources is a different discussion and subject to the people who comprise a club.


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## Doc

Is this a spill over thread from another discussion? If so, what/where is the other discussion? I'm a bit senile so I need the background information before I say something off-the-wall.


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## Jason L

Vandal said:


> I train ALL KINDS of breeds in SchH. Currently just started an American Bulldog and his owner who just joined my club. My only requirement is that the dog has the desire to do what SchH is and in my club, it IS Schutzhund, not "Extreme Retrieving" like what the Golden is doing. If you bring your working line GSD to my club and he is not interested, I might help you for a bit to see if maybe the dog will mature and show some more natural ability but if he doesn't, it's time to get a dog who does and find something your dog LIKES.


I totally agree with this, Anne. I have seen your recent work with Rotties and Dobies on youtube. I think it's a little anachronistic to insist that SchH remain JUST a breed test for German Shepherds, but, yes, I agree, schutzhund training should be schutzhund training, not extreme retrieving or a some kind of stylize canine freestyle dancing. It's a lot more than just getting the "picture" right.


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## DunRingill

Vandal said:


> I train ALL KINDS of breeds in SchH. Currently just started an American Bulldog and his owner who just joined my club. My only requirement is that the dog has the desire to do what SchH is and in my club, it IS Schutzhund, not "Extreme Retrieving" like what the Golden is doing. If you bring your working line GSD to my club and he is not interested, I might help you for a bit to see if maybe the dog will mature and show some more natural ability but if he doesn't, it's time to get a dog who does and find something your dog LIKES.
> I will always be an advocate for the dogs, I sure am not doing this to satify the whims and emotional insecurities of the people.


:toasting: :thumbup: No argument from me!!!


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## W.Oliver

Jason L said:


> I totally agree with this, Anne. I have seen your recent work with Rotties and Dobies on youtube. I think it's a little anachronistic to insist that SchH remain JUST a breed test for German Shepherds, but, yes, I agree, schutzhund training should be schutzhund training, not extreme retrieving or a some kind of stylize canine freestyle dancing. It's a lot more than just getting the "picture" right.


I agree with the representative from CA as well, and have no argument with that notion...I would even consider it the ideal....but if a club has the resources and is willing, then to me, training is not a toggle switch, go, no-go. It is a dial, and training can be adjusted to achieve the goals of handler/dog...which may not be titling....and if your club has no interest in cultivating that type of relationship with a member, OK, but it does not mean there isn't a venue where that caliber can train, and it does not have  to do with weakening SchH.


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## Vandal

> I agree with the representative from CA


Gee, I feel like a member of congress.



> but if a club has the resources and is willing, then to me, training is not a toggle switch, go, no-go. It is a dial, and training can be adjusted to achieve the goals of handler/dog...which may not be titling....and if your club has no interest in cultivating that type of relationship with a member, OK, but it does not mean there isn't a venue where that caliber can train, and it does not have  to do with weakening SchH.


 

Spoken by someone who is clearly new at it. I am not one to lie or encourage people just to make them feel good. I tell it like it is and that is the approach that more people doing SchH might want to consider. I have no problem with interested people but they should display that interest by doing their homework and clearly understanding that SchH requires certain traits to be genetic in their dog. They can have those traits in varying degrees but they MUST be there or SchH becomes difficult for the dog. I can also argue that this bending backwards to accomidate any old dog has INDEED affected SchH in more ways than you might think. Perhaps you should sit and think about it for a minute and spare my fingers from typing it all out for you.

So many people nowadays simply want to emote and encourage others to do the same vs maybe encouraging some thinking every now and then. Not you of course Wayne......


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## szariksdad

I had already trained Rottweilers in tracking and had not heard much before about Sch. so when the wife and I decided to get a GSD I went to learn what they were trained in that would be a good goal for the dog, I ended finding SchH and found it is perfect our dog and me. While I am still enough of a newbie, I got involved with a group that does have a lot of experience in the sport and do not train it as a game but more of they working the dog to see what pressure he can handle. I enjoyed the sport enough the TD has agreed to take me under his wing to be a helper which I have enjoyed learning more about the dog from the other end instead of just handling.


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## FG167

Liesje said:


> I train in SchH because it exposes things about my dog that I can't really have tested and exposed anywhere else (but is not the *only* venue for this). Also I find it complementary to the other training we do (agility, flyball). I do it because myself and the dogs enjoy it. I believe that drive is inherent/genetic; Schutzhund gives us a way to channel those drives into something "positive", and teaches us how to control them.
> 
> I just personally like doing it. I like my club members, they are my friends. There is a social aspect to it. Unlike other sports/venues, SchH is the best "bang for the buck". Three phases and sometimes 6 hours. I like variety.


This is why I do it. 

I brought Madix into my behaviorist for the first time in awhile (she's seen him since 10 weeks) and she said that she could see how wonderful it has been for him, as an individual. But, also for us, as a team/unit.


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## onyx'girl

szariksdad said:


> . I enjoyed the sport enough the TD has agreed to take me under his wing to be a helper which I have enjoyed learning more about the dog from the other end instead of just handling.


I think it's great you will be learning helperwork. More should do the same! And from a helper perspective, you'll be a better handler as well.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Gee, I feel like a member of congress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoken by someone who is clearly new at it. I am not one to lie or encourage people just to make them feel good. I tell it like it is and that is the approach that more people doing SchH might want to consider. I have no problem with interested people but they should display that interest by doing their homework and clearly understanding that SchH requires certain traits to be genetic in their dog. They can have those traits in varying degrees but they MUST be there or SchH becomes difficult for the dog. I can also argue that this bending backwards to accomidate any old dog has INDEED affected SchH in more ways than you might think. Perhaps you should sit and think about it for a minute and spare my fingers from typing it all out for you.
> 
> So many people nowadays simply want to emote and encourage others to do the same vs maybe encouraging some thinking every now and then. Not you of course Wayne......


So you think that corruption and money has nothing to do with what is going on within the SV and that it's not weakening the breed at all?


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> Spoken by someone who is clearly new at it.
> 
> Perhaps you should sit and think about it for a minute and spare my fingers from typing it all out for you.
> 
> So many people nowadays simply want to emote and encourage others to do the same vs maybe encouraging some thinking every now and then. Not you of course Wayne......


Can this be an objective exchange of ideas/opinions or does it need to be insulting to make a point?



Vandal said:


> .... I have no problem with interested people but they should display that interest by doing their homework and clearly understanding that SchH requires certain traits to be genetic in their dog. ...


The question raised was not, why do you train in SchH if your dog is genetically inadequate? Just simply why do you train in SchH? (you the handler/trainer, not the dog). Some folks may train with an inferior dog until they have an opportunity to bring home another dog, and others may simply discard the inferior dog like sports equipment and get the appropriate gear...but why do you train Anne? I guess the easy answer is because you're a breeder, and its business.

But what if only breeders trained? Would you only sell to other breeders? Or with a more limited market, would you dumb down your dog lines so the litter ratios would produce more companion dogs? How would you address the supply and demand aspects of an elitist market?


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## Vandal

I understand for some the truth feels like an insult but that is my opinion about the state of people nowadays. So much is geared to encourage people to only "think" with their emotions. 

Also, about your question....I was responding to your opinion which was this:



> My view is where many are allowed to attempt and fail, regard and respect are cultivated. Where many are denied simply the attempt, scorn and ridicule are propagated.
> 
> We talk about public awareness of protection/bite work and what a well rounded GSD is, and yet we take an elitist mentality to SchH for fear of watering it down....when in fact, it is not participation that weakens SchH, it is money and self-serving corruption that forsakes the the breed and has watered-down SchH


 
The corruption and greed has made it possible for huge numbers of people to participate in SchH with dogs who could have never done it 20 years ago. What are you complaining about? You should be grateful those people used their money for such a noble cause. Sarcasm intended.


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## szariksdad

I will go out on a limb and it may look political but it is not only money and corruption that have ruined the sport but where we as a society have taken a turn to be that we should include everybody and build up there self-esteem. However this has come at a cost of not being able to be honest with ourselves and others as being acceptable. This is not pointed at anyone in general but how I see things happening that would not be allowed before as being acceptable now. All under the guise of moral relativism and not straight morals.


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## GSDElsa

Again...it's one thing to find a club that is willing to have you train and do it. It's another to expect a title out of it.

I am in a current situation. Elsa does not seem to be "into" bitework. That might change once she gets it--she just doesn't seem to at this point. I'm certainly grateful that they will have me at the club to participate in what I can. But I certainly don't think I will ever have a title on her (at least as how things stand now). That to me is the huge difference. 

Even though SchH is considered a "breeding test", you need to to prove (IMO) that those traits aren't just a fluke.

While horribly new to SchH, I tend to take the "watering down" topic quite seriously. I grew up doing 3-day eventing in the horse world. Very tough sport mentally and physically on both horse and rider. Nothing else in the horse world even compares to it. I watched over 15 years as the sport gradually became more and more dumbed down for people. Jumps became less techincal. They started crying foul over the rigorous endurance phase and it has all been eliminated. It started as a military sport:
Eventing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There have been a huge amount of injuries and deaths. Not because it's getting harder--but because people feel entitled to be able to compete at that level. They buy either expensive horses that are too much for them to handle and they can't control them. Or they buy horses that don't want to do it and end up with a stop at a solid log jump which ends up in someone almost dying. Then people don't want to properly condition so the horse isn't dragging at the end of the course and gets a front leg hung up on a jump. So what to do? Make the sport easier so it's fun and safe for everyone? Or accept that not everyone and every horse has any business doing it? It's not a sport that was ever meant at the top levels for the faint of heart. And it's a shame that virtually no one gets their butts up at 4AM in August anymoreto do galloping interval training to prepare.

I love the sport and love that it's become more popular. What I don't love is the very core of the sport changing. I guess I'm a purist. And I can't help but feel the same way about SchH even though I've done virutally nothing in the sport.

So why do I love SchH? The motto I lived by growing up was 3 days, 3 ways. Tough as nails and brave as he**. SchH is as close to that as I'm going to get only owning dogs now. Quite frankly, I feel a kinship with the sport that I haven't felt since I galloped at 20mph through my last cross country finish line.

I never had a problem with people training in 3-day eventing and going to "schooling" shows. What I had a problem with was people forcing themselves and their horses through the lower levels, getting to a higher level and recognized shows, and bursting into tears at every clinic when their horse got a bad distance to a corner jump because they were scared. And were the first people to cry foul that the sport was too dangerous.

I know it's all pretty OT here and 95% of you probably have no idea what the heck I'm rambling about....but the same conversations I see going on about SchH were the same ones I had back in the day about eventing.


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## Vandal

> I know it's all pretty OT here and 95% of you probably have no idea what the heck I'm rambling about....but the same conversations I see going on about SchH were the same ones I had back in the day about eventing.


Makes perfect sense to me. It is a great comparison and relates to what both I and Szariksdad are saying. 
Things are too geared to making the people feel good without enough consideration for the animals.


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> Makes perfect sense to me. It is a great comparison and relates to what both I and Szariksdad are saying.
> Things are too geared to making the people feel good without enough consideration for the animals.


Actually, in SchH it has a LOT to do with the animals. One of the reasons times have changed is because people don't want to see an unhappy dog anymore. If you look at the obedience part from 15 years ago you barely see any flashy obedience because the training methods were much different. With todays training methods you can train almost train any dog to look like he's got it and it's hard to tell the difference which also plays a huge role in SchH. At least that is what his a hot-topic in Germany. People like the new training methods but it also has it's downsides because you can manipulate a dog into looking hard without having to be hard.


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## DunRingill

GSDElsa said:


> I know it's all pretty OT here and 95% of you probably have no idea what the heck I'm rambling about....but the same conversations I see going on about SchH were the same ones I had back in the day about eventing.


No, it makes perfect sense to me!! 

I feel the same way when people clamor for obedience jumps to be lowered even further, so that their old or out of shape or even crippled dog can still "get titles and win ribbons." They get very upset at the suggestion that perhaps their dogs shouldn't be jumping anymore, no matter what the jump height......


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## CassandGunnar

I have little to no experience in ScH. I was a police K9 handler for many years so the concept of "watering down" so more people can participate is mind bending to me, but I guess in today's society, it doesn't surprise me.
We give out participant trophies for kids athletics and events or we don't keep score at events so no one "feels bad" about losing.
What's next, shorten the Boston Marathon to 10k so more people can participate?

I've seen a few ScH clubs training, but not for many years.

I feel bad for the people that are "hardcore" about ScH and what it should be (or used to be).
I suppose it's possible to join a club that practice/trains for what ScH was supposed to be, but I've read several posts that seem to make even that a slim possibility IF obtaining a title has become so politically correct so that everyone "gets a trophy" for participating.

I also tend to agree with the school of thought that it is an outstanding to work your dog and train them to the highest degree possible, within the capability of the dog, but if the dog cannot pass the tests at the highest level, don't expect to be rewarded.

When I was in high school and college, I wanted to play basketball in the NBA. I played in HS and was an outstanding player. I played at a smaller college and was adequate to fair. I never got a chance to play in the NBA because I wasn't good enough. End of that dream, moved on. It didn't stop me from playing basketball, I still play, almost 30 years after graduating from college.


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## szariksdad

Again Mrs.K that is changing the sport to make people happy and not the dog necessarily. After all it offends some people to see a dog doing ob and its tail not wagging, there must be something wrong, note this humor. The real problem is while we can take and add some aspects to make the dog happy in certain cases they are trying there best to make a dog something it is not instead of accepting who the dog is and work with what you have.


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## Hunther's Dad

In no particular order of importance:

I train in Schutzhund for the fun of it. I put a lot of time and energy into it, and my dogs enjoy it. And watching a well-trained, highly motivated dog blast off on the long bite is highly addictive.

I train in Schutzhund for the sense of accomplishment. Our training director says that in his experience, 9 out of 10 people who start training for a SchH I title don't complete it. And earning that title (not having it given to me) is not easy, nor should it be.

I train in Schutzhund because it's a little like being a K9 officer, but without the callouts at 2:00 am on a rainy night (only to get canceled five minutes away from the scene), no report writing, no being told how to train by a supervisor who's never owned a dog, etc. 

I train in Schutzhund because of the element of controlled violence. (Now _there's_ a sentence that'll stir things up!) I train using some of Ivan Balabanov's methods, and if I don't concentrate I can get badly hurt. And God bless the helpers, who volunteer to take the punishment that some of these dogs can dish out.


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## Mrs.K

szariksdad said:


> Again Mrs.K that is changing the sport to make people happy and not the dog necessarily. After all it offends some people to see a dog doing ob and its tail not wagging, there must be something wrong, note this humor. The real problem is while we can take and add some aspects to make the dog happy in certain cases they are trying there best to make a dog something it is not instead of accepting who the dog is and work with what you have.


And in many cases there was something wrong. Again, the training methods back then were torture and abuse more often than not. So I do prefer todays training methods much more than of what was going on back then. 

Torture and Abuse in the name of a breed test is wrong!


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## Lin

GSDElsa said:


> I know it's all pretty OT here and 95% of you probably have no idea what the heck I'm rambling about....but the same conversations I see going on about SchH were the same ones I had back in the day about eventing.


Very interesting perspective! I've never thought about it that way, even when following debates on the safety of eventing by eventers on horse forums. If someone else has brought up that point before it just didn't click in my head until now.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> I understand for some the truth feels like an insult but that is my opinion about the state of people nowadays....


The truth or opinion can be expressed objectively and intelligently, please don't further insult the reader by passing off the condescending as either. It simply diminishes the value of your input and negates the years of experience you have to offer.


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## Vandal

This and the other thread pretty much prove my point. Opinion or truth, depends on who's point of view it is. You are chosing to be insulted while you attempt to insult me at the same time. 
Go on with your thread though, I was done after reading the majority of SchH people are dog abusers comment again.


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## W.Oliver

GSDElsa said:


> I am in a current situation. Elsa does not seem to be "into" bitework. That might change once she gets it--she just doesn't seem to at this point. I'm certainly grateful that they will have me at the club to participate in what I can. But I certainly don't think I will ever have a title on her (at least as how things stand now). That to me is the huge difference.


I appreciated your post and feel the same way. I don't want to see SchH made easy for the masses...at the same time, your dog isn't genetically there....should you be dismissed from the club? You're wasting resources.

My view is...work with the team, get what you can out of the dog, and learn...prepare for the next dog...

....or, are some suggesting dump the hound like damaged sporting goods, and move on to an appropriate genetic example of the breed? is it go, no-go, or is there room to learn with what you have to work with?


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## DunRingill

W.Oliver said:


> I appreciated your post and feel the same way. I don't want to see SchH made easy for the masses...at the same time, your dog isn't genetically there....should you be dismissed from the club? You're wasting resources.
> 
> My view is...work with the team, get what you can out of the dog, and learn...prepare for the next dog...


I don't think anyone is saying that the less-than-perfect dogs shouldn't be worked.....all I see is people saying that the test shouldn't be dumbed down, and it looks like you agree with that? 



> ....or, are some suggesting dump the hound like damaged sporting goods, and move on to an appropriate genetic example of the breed? is it go, no-go, or is there room to learn with what you have to work with?


I don't remember seeing any posts saying dogs should be dumped. The less-than-perfect dogs are the ones that teach you a LOT, and working with those dogs helps you get ready for and truly APPRECIATE a good dog!


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## Mrs.K

Vandal said:


> This and the other thread pretty much prove my point. Opinion or truth, depends on who's point of view it is. You are chosing to be insulted while you attempt to insult me at the same time.
> Go on with your thread though, I was done after reading the majority of SchH people are dog abusers comment again.


You are completely taking it out of context. I never said that all SchH people are dog abusers and I did state that the training methods have changed but if you are turning a blind eye on the fact that 15-20 years ago the training methods have been abusive and it's NO SECRET that it was. 

However, I have never said that you or anyone else on here used any kind of these methods I am purely stating of what I and many other people I know, have personally witnessed throughout the years.


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## Cassidy's Mom

DunRingill said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that the less-than-perfect dogs shouldn't be worked.....all I see is people saying that the test shouldn't be dumbed down, and it looks like you agree with that?


I read through this entire thread and it seemed to me that some people were very clearly stating the opinion that working less than perfect dogs WAS dumbing the test down, and that in order to prevent that from continuing, those less than perfect dogs should NOT be worked in that venue. But maybe I misunderstood....


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## GSDElsa

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I read through this entire thread and it seemed to me that some people were very clearly stating the opinion that working less than perfect dogs WAS dumbing the test down, and that in order to prevent that from continuing, those less than perfect dogs should NOT be worked in that venue. But maybe I misunderstood....


To me there is a difference between going out to the club and learning what you can with the dog you have before moving on...and expecting and GETTING a SchH 1 or beyond.

Who a club lets train with them is highly personal. I am appreciative I have the opportunity to do what I can with the dog I have. But I KNOW we aren't going to have a protection-based title. And neither should ANYONE think they will if they don't have that "perfect" dog. On the other hand, I dont' think that any club should be demonized if they dn't think they have the resources, time, or patience to train people only having fun.

That doesn't prevent people from going to a SchH club, learning obedience and/or tracking, getting a BH, an AD, an obedience title, or a tracking title...all while learning the ropes.


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## Cassidy's Mom

GSDElsa said:


> To me there is a difference between going out to the club and learning what you can with the dog you have before moving on...and expecting and GETTING a SchH 1 or beyond.


I completely agree. And I thought that was exactly what Wayne was trying to say, but people kept disagreeing with him and arguing against him. :shrug:


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## DunRingill

GSDElsa said:


> To me there is a difference between going out to the club and learning what you can with the dog you have before moving on...and expecting and GETTING a SchH 1 or beyond.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> That doesn't prevent people from going to a SchH club, learning obedience and/or tracking, getting a BH, an AD, an obedience title, or a tracking title...all while learning the ropes.


That's how I read it......training and learning, no problem! Assuming the club has enough resources. But just because a team goes to training doesn't mean they should always get a title.


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## Jason L

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I completely agree. And I thought that was exactly what Wayne was trying to say, but people kept disagreeing with him and arguing against him. :shrug:


Wayne is a helper and a suit decoy. He has perfected the art of getting others to aggress against him!


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## CassandGunnar

Jason L said:


> Wayne is a helper and a suit decoy. He has perfected the art of getting others to aggress against him!


:rofl:


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## W.Oliver

Cassidy's Mom said:


> I completely agree. And I thought that was exactly what Wayne was trying to say, but people kept disagreeing with him and arguing against him. :shrug:


Thank you. If you read my posts, I've never suggested an incapable dog should be titled. I am suggestion folks should be allowed to train and afforded an opportunity to learn. 

I think it is too easy for those with good dogs and years of experience to look down their nose and forget where they came from. There are people who work what they have, albeit a Golden or a POS American line....that is the bike with training wheels they have to ride/work, for whatever reason....(and sometimes they have to bring their kids, so they can pursue their passion). It may be a function of knowledge, experience, money and/or time before they get that next dog....so I say train, and learn. 

Could it be the issue is more about training the trainer than the Golden? 

Enduring the elitist BS must be a nerve test to cull the weak from the herd attempting to learn from the fountain of arrogance.

It is way too easy for this crowd to cast the first stone.....but more frightening is the hypocrisy that rears its ugly head here.

Goodnight, and good training.


----------



## Vandal

Guess I will spell it out for Wayne and for those of you who have an opinion but little or no experience in SchH.

The point is....... it is UNFAIR TO THE DOG to ask it to do something it is not genetically capable of doing. Working a dog like that in SchH is WRONG. The dogs do not enjoy themselves when they are not cut out for it. They are uncomfortable and UNHAPPY, even if they do try to please their owner by trying when too much is being asked of them. 

If your dog is afraid of gun fire do you take it to a July 4th fireworks show because he is the dog you have at the time and you want his company?

If you show up and the club decides the dog isn't cut out for Schutzhund and you say "OK, I want to do a BH"..FINE, if you are capable of learning and the dog has the temperament for that but working the dog in protection is NOT RIGHT !!! 

Also, working dogs like that gives a very wrong impression to those watching and doing it. Perhaps some of you recall the Sieger Show videos posted showing very upset and frightened dogs running from the helpers. Did they look like they were ENJOYING themselves?? Those people were certainly encouraged and helped by some club to work those dogs. Is this fair to the dogs??? Those handlers should have been ashamed of themselves but somehow, they got the impression that working those dogs and putting them in a situation like that was OK. Even if they were told not to , which I SERIOUSLY doubt, someone helped them work those dogs. 

I have also encountered more than one person who would not accept that their dog was unhappy and continued to work it after it was made CRYSTAL clear to them how much stress their dog was feeling. Some club helped them continue to work their dog and THAT is the problem! Not much I can do about what other people do to their dogs but I sure don't have to be a part of it. I guess that makes me "elite".

As for where I came from Wayne, I started out with a dog who could do SchH. American dog who had NO problem with protection. He was a dog fighter, so, instead of subjecting the club and my dog to a problem, I bought a dog who was not and the other one went back to being a family dog, which he had done for 5 years before he started in SchH. I later placed him with a local PD.

I have quit training a few dogs who were not enjoying the training for one reason or another. Just because I liked the dog enough to do that. I am thinking I would much rather be known as elite than selfish.


----------



## onyx'girl

Protection phase doesn't have to be done if the dog is a wash at it....you can still do the obedience and tracking and not waste a helpers time as long as the club is cool with that(while you are researching your next teammate). 
I agree....the dog should have the mettle, but if you are learning and the dog enjoys tracking, obedience then there should be no reason not to train while you learn.
Then you get another dog because you've learned which breeders have the dog that will possibly succeed in all three phases.
I think many people start with a dog that washes out(I did), and even though that dog doesn't get tossed aside or rehomed, the handler finds a dog they can work. 
I would never, ever waste a clubs time or my dogs time if it wasn't enjoyable for all. 
I went to the club for a few months without a dog while I waited for a pup, I would handle other pups for a breeder and just observe while learning....we all have to start somewhere.


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## sagelfn

In the case of a dog who could not do protection work because of its nerves would a club be open to that dog only working in OB and tracking? Then the handler would still be in the club learning so when they get their next dog they are not starting from scratch. Obviously that person isn't going to earn any titles but when they get their next dog they might.

I'm just curious how those that want to do and learn SchH go about that when they don't have a dog capable doing of all 3 phases. SchH people are always saying they know exactly what qualities they want in their next dog...well if you aren't doing SchH how do you figure that out?


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## Liesje

Vandal said:


> The point is....... it is UNFAIR TO THE DOG to ask it to do something it is not genetically capable of doing. Working a dog like that in SchH is WRONG. The dogs do not enjoy themselves when they are not cut out for it. They are uncomfortable and UNHAPPY, even if they do try to please their owner by trying when too much is being asked of them.
> 
> [....]
> 
> I have quit training a few dogs who were not enjoying the training for one reason or another. Just because I liked the dog enough to do that. I am thinking I would much rather be known as elite than selfish.


Been reading through the responses and was composing a post in my head but it basically reiterated what Anne already is saying here. I'm newer to the breed, newer to SchH, have never trained, competed, or bred dogs to the level of many on this board and even I have already had several instances where I have to bite my tongue while watching a dog be worked. In some cases it was the owner's ego, other cases the owner's ignorance, sometimes a combination of both.

Unlike Mrs. K, I've never seen anyone really abuse a dog, never seen someone shock dogs with car batteries or any of the things that apparently were/are so common in other parts of the world but I've seen a few people working dogs (even with the "positive methods" or bitework that is all prey, tracking that has 5lbs of treats on the track) that clearly did not enjoy it. Then the dog starts giving calming signals and avoidance behaviors and the owner gets mad and frustrated at it and everything goes down the crapper. The dog is ultimately the one that looses.


----------



## Liesje

sagelfn said:


> In the case of a dog who could not do protection work because of its nerves would a club be open to that dog only working in OB and tracking? Then the handler would still be in the club learning so when they get their next dog they are not starting from scratch. Obviously that person isn't going to earn any titles but when they get their next dog they might.
> 
> I'm just curious how those that want to do and learn SchH go about that when they don't have a dog capable doing of all 3 phases. SchH people are always saying they know exactly what qualities they want in their next dog...well if you aren't doing SchH how do you figure that out?


Depends on the club. Some have limited time and space for members. I think any club needs a few members that are more experienced. I know of some clubs that allow you to work multiple dogs and work a dog such as this but only after you have done a SchH title with one dog.

Right now our club is at capacity. It really is not so much an issue of us disliking the dog or thinking someone is dumb for working it in 2 phases, but we just can't take on any more green people, green dogs, or dogs that aren't really doing SchH (I'm sure some will argue with me but to me you are not doing Schutzhund unless you are training all three phases). It is not cheap for us to train where/when/with whom we do. A lot of time SchH assumes the 80/20 rule where 20% of the people/dogs are using up 80% of the time and resources. Push it past that and the people who have put YEARS into developing the club and are showing a serious commitment to Schutzhund start getting anxious. Our club inquiries come through me and I've turned down three people this week (always refer them to other clubs/trainers and help as much as we can). We're just out of time, space, and the physical strain placed on a single helper. Now if we get someone that knows what they are doing and/or will do helper work, they are a shoo-in.


----------



## Joker

FG167 said:


> This is why I do it.
> 
> I brought Madix into my behaviorist for the first time in awhile (she's seen him since 10 weeks) and she said that she could see how wonderful it has been for him, as an individual. But, also for us, as a team/unit.


What the!!! are you ****** kidding me


----------



## Joker

Vandal said:


> Guess I will spell it out for Wayne and for those of you who have an opinion but little or no experience in SchH.
> 
> The point is....... it is UNFAIR TO THE DOG to ask it to do something it is not genetically capable of doing. Working a dog like that in SchH is WRONG. The dogs do not enjoy themselves when they are not cut out for it. They are uncomfortable and UNHAPPY, even if they do try to please their owner by trying when too much is being asked of them.
> 
> If your dog is afraid of gun fire do you take it to a July 4th fireworks show because he is the dog you have at the time and you want his company?
> 
> If you show up and the club decides the dog isn't cut out for Schutzhund and you say "OK, I want to do a BH"..FINE, if you are capable of learning and the dog has the temperament for that but working the dog in protection is NOT RIGHT !!!
> 
> Also, working dogs like that gives a very wrong impression to those watching and doing it. Perhaps some of you recall the Sieger Show videos posted showing very upset and frightened dogs running from the helpers. Did they look like they were ENJOYING themselves?? Those people were certainly encouraged and helped by some club to work those dogs. Is this fair to the dogs??? Those handlers should have been ashamed of themselves but somehow, they got the impression that working those dogs and putting them in a situation like that was OK. Even if they were told not to , which I SERIOUSLY doubt, someone helped them work those dogs.
> 
> I have also encountered more than one person who would not accept that their dog was unhappy and continued to work it after it was made CRYSTAL clear to them how much stress their dog was feeling. Some club helped them continue to work their dog and THAT is the problem! Not much I can do about what other people do to their dogs but I sure don't have to be a part of it. I guess that makes me "elite".
> 
> As for where I came from Wayne, I started out with a dog who could do SchH. American dog who had NO problem with protection. He was a dog fighter, so, instead of subjecting the club and my dog to a problem, I bought a dog who was not and the other one went back to being a family dog, which he had done for 5 years before he started in SchH. I later placed him with a local PD.
> 
> I have quit training a few dogs who were not enjoying the training for one reason or another. Just because I liked the dog enough to do that. I am thinking I would much rather be known as elite than selfish.


Oh man you wanna really stir some **** up try spewing some of this Gospel in the breeding section


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## GSDElsa

Vandal said:


> The point is....... it is UNFAIR TO THE DOG to ask it to do something it is not genetically capable of doing. Working a dog like that in SchH is WRONG. The dogs do not enjoy themselves when they are not cut out for it. They are uncomfortable and UNHAPPY, even if they do try to please their owner by trying when too much is being asked of them.


Oh no, I totally agree with you on that front. I don't think it is right either. But MY point is that if a club is willing to have you out and training with them in what you can, then there is nothing wrong with the club doing that or the person taking advantage of that.


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## Jax08

Vandal said:


> The point is....... it is UNFAIR TO THE DOG to ask it to do something it is not genetically capable of doing. Working a dog like that in SchH is WRONG. The dogs do not enjoy themselves when they are not cut out for it. They are uncomfortable and UNHAPPY, even if they do try to please their owner by trying when too much is being asked of them.


:thumbup:

I don't do SchH because I have a GSD pound puppy who would be a broken ball of nerves if I tried to get her to do bitework. Would she? Yes, my trainer said she would bite from fear. Should she? **** NO! Would she enjoy tracking and obedience? Yes. But there is AKC obedience and tracking that I can trial her in so I have other options. I"ve thought about joining the SchH club to learn the tracking and obedience but I"m not even sure she could pass the BH because of the part where she is left alone. But no way would I subject her to protection knowing she would only do it because she had to and it would shut her down.

IMLO...
Dogs don't get up one morning and say "ya know...I"d like to go bite on a sleeve" We choose to subject them to these activities. GSDs are supposed to be bred so that they WANT to do this.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> Guess I will spell it out for Wayne and for those of you who have an opinion but little or no experience in SchH.


No Anne, you don't have to spell it out....not harming the dog physically or mentally is a given.....but I enjoyed reading your dazzling grasp of the obvious.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> Guess I will spell it out for Wayne and for those of you who have an opinion but little or no experience in SchH.


On another note, and equally as obvious....do you really appreciate what it means to have an opinion but little or no experience in SchH.

It means those of us who are new have studied enough to understand that SchH has problems, the breed has problems, and it is the old timers who are to blame. The old timers either contributed to the problem, or failed to do enough to address it.


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## Vandal

I have a feeling you are not getting all of my dazzling post but maybe you will later on. That's usually the way things work. People argue and then one day it hits them what the other person was saying.

I have actually seen how this has played out and the now huge numbers of people doing SchH who really have no understanding of what it is, was, should be, you name it. When you have that mentality in big numbers, the old timers , (or whoever is responsible), have a rather significant advantage. It is easy to convince people, (who do not know any better), that certain bending of the rules, dogs not suited, ( you name it) are OK and really the way it SHOULD be. They will tell you that we don't want to discourage people or whatever reason they come up with. That is what has happened. You can look at all the people with show dogs who are not suited but they are there doing "schutzhund", ( or they call it that anyway), in very large numbers. That gives even more people the idea that their version of SchH is what SchH is. Of course, that is not true but that kind of manipulation of the people has turned it into what it is now. 

It really started to go downhill when they associated Schutzhund with Agility instead of Police. I mentioned that on this board some years back and recall Chris and Tim commenting immediately. Maybe they recall. I was right. Once that was accomplished they started to attract the the mentality they were looking for. Those people are doing SchH in great numbers now and no one is discouraging them, even though their dogs are not suited. That wouldn't be nice after all and nowadays, it's all about nice. 
It will be gone all together soon enough , so, enjoy it while you can.


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## W.Oliver

That was an excellent post to keep me from coming up the leash again, you may be more of a people person than you portray.

I simply believe there is a distinct difference between training and trialing. I agree with keeping the trial expectation high, and I don't think every dog should title. But I also think training should be as accessible as reasonable, where reasonable is defined by the club members.

I cannot rule-out that my perceptions will evolve over time...but I will always remain a people person, as well as a dog person. One without the other is simply a lack of balance and weak genetics.


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## Zisso

First of all I want to make it clear that the club I train with is not in the Official books with USA, etc, We are small and working towards the goal of being able to register with USA and becoming a full fledged SchH club. I enjoy working with my TD and believe he is one of the most patient people I have ever met and I will continue to support his club with all my might.

In return he helps me with my 'problem child' Nadia who I got at the tender age of 16 months, was and can still be a nipper, does not particularly like strangers, and had an array of issues when she came to me. My TD is a saint when it comes to working with her and myself to try to calm her down so she can reach her full potential. To me, that is huge!

I learn a tremendous amount about my dogs by training with this club. Not only that but I learn an amazing amount about SchH itself. Whether or not I will manage to title the two dogs I have now is a matter best left to the progress they make, but my club knows that if I can never title these two, I am there to support them in the endeavor of becoming an Official USA club, to help with their dogs and to learn all I can. I will eventually have another pup that I can train for titling. So what I am learning now will make a new pups training richer in the future and helps my current two to reach their full potential. 

I train because it is good for my dogs, and all 3 of us enjoy it. Plus I am antisocial in the real world so this brings me out of my shell and is my social life too. With like minded people


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## W.Oliver

Anne,

I am leaving now to go to the airport. I am spending next week training Indy with Michael Ellis in Fairfield CA. I wanted to leave you with that thought because I know your opinion on the subject, and it simply makes me smile!

Love & kisses,

Wayne

P.S. I will be in California again at the end of June, and in your neighborhood......:gonefishing:


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## W.Oliver

W.Oliver said:


> If SchH is a breed test, and you are not a breeder, then why train in SchH?


Because it isn't easy, and I love it....I simply train to train.


----------



## W.Oliver

Zisso said:


> First of all I want to make it clear that the club I train with is not in the Official books with USA, etc, We are small and working towards the goal of being able to register with USA and becoming a full fledged SchH club. I enjoy working with my TD and believe he is one of the most patient people I have ever met and I will continue to support his club with all my might.
> 
> In return he helps me with my 'problem child' Nadia who I got at the tender age of 16 months, was and can still be a nipper, does not particularly like strangers, and had an array of issues when she came to me. My TD is a saint when it comes to working with her and myself to try to calm her down so she can reach her full potential. To me, that is huge!
> 
> I learn a tremendous amount about my dogs by training with this club. Not only that but I learn an amazing amount about SchH itself. Whether or not I will manage to title the two dogs I have now is a matter best left to the progress they make, but my club knows that if I can never title these two, I am there to support them in the endeavor of becoming an Official USA club, to help with their dogs and to learn all I can. I will eventually have another pup that I can train for titling. So what I am learning now will make a new pups training richer in the future and helps my current two to reach their full potential.
> 
> I train because it is good for my dogs, and all 3 of us enjoy it. Plus I am antisocial in the real world so this brings me out of my shell and is my social life too. With like minded people


You capture the spirit of what I was attempting to convey....you're the future customer of working line breeders that may scorn you today, but you are also the future of SchH...endure & enjoy.


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## Zisso

Thank you Wayne  You really and truly made my day!


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## Cassidy's Mom

W.Oliver said:


> I am spending next week training Indy with Michael Ellis in Fairfield CA.


Ooooh, have fun! His school is only about 50 miles from me, and I'd love to go there with a puppy some day. In the meantime, we've worked with his partner Lisa Maze, who you'll probably meet while you're here. Unfortunately, there's nothing but rain in the forecast for most of the next week, so your trip to "sunny California" won't be. :sunburn: <---- not


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## GSD07

W.Oliver said:


> Because it isn't easy, and I love it....I simply train to train.


 You are better then me in this respect. I train because I want to see a result. If I can't reach the result not because of my skills but because of dog's unsuitable genetics, I will not train just for the sake of the process.

I have the same approach for my own education and carrier, too.


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## DunRingill

w.oliver said:


> anne,
> 
> i am leaving now to go to the airport. I am spending next week training indy with michael ellis in fairfield ca.


you lucky dog!!!!


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## Jason L

W.Oliver said:


> Anne,
> 
> I am leaving now to go to the airport. I am spending next week training Indy with Michael Ellis in Fairfield CA. I wanted to leave you with that thought because I know your opinion on the subject, and it simply makes me smile!
> 
> Love & kisses,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> P.S. I will be in California again at the end of June, and in your neighborhood......:gonefishing:


Wayne, you're a brave man to say that ... although now that I think about it: you kind of said it, shut your laptop off and ran, so maybe you are not so brave 

Safe trip and have fun!


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## Liesje

Jason L said:


> Wayne, you're a brave man to say that ... although now that I think about it: you kind of said it, shut your laptop off and ran, so maybe you are not so brave
> 
> Safe trip and have fun!


tehe 

Have fun, Wayne, and we expect a full report when you get back!


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## Vandal

Talking on the internet doesn't require much moxie, showing up in my neighborhood would be a different story entirely. Lucky for Wayne I plan to be gone for the entire month of June. My dogs and I are going to Michigan.


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## onyx'girl

Really!! You're visiting Wayne's world? Sweeet....


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## Joker

W.Oliver said:


> Anne,
> 
> I am leaving now to go to the airport. I am spending next week training Indy with Michael Ellis in Fairfield CA. I wanted to leave you with that thought because I know your opinion on the subject, and it simply makes me smile!
> 
> Love & kisses,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> P.S. I will be in California again at the end of June, and in your neighborhood......:gonefishing:


JMO Michael is a great dog and people trainer not a great Schutzhund trainer. I will say I'm a better dog trainer from what I learned from him.
Here's what I think, he trains comfortable and leaves allot on the table especially with the good German Shepherd. You dont train a really good German Shepherd the same way you train a Mali. Even the people that have big Schutzhund success with the Mals train with the good and great German Shepherd trainers.


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## FG167

Joker said:


> What the!!! are you ****** kidding me


No. Why? Not really sure why the profanity is necessary either...


----------



## Joker

FG167 said:


> No. Why? Not really sure why the profanity is necessary either...


If I said why you would prolly wouldnt be noticing my profanity


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## mareg

"Why do you train in Schutzhund"?

I ask myself that every time I go to a club.....getting much harder to answer. 

I know why I train my dogs....I love it. Schutzhund on the other hand is great but the people......


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## DunRingill

mareg said:


> I know why I train my dogs....I love it. Schutzhund on the other hand is great but the people......


I know what you mean. I got lucky in finding a good group, but I've been around some training situations and thought NO WAY would I want to put up with this!

For example the one time I traveled a long distance to a trial (that's another long stupid story).....the group was training the night before the trial. The TD in charge was "helping", which consisted mostly of screaming at me for the way I was handling my dog and telling me everything I was doing was WRONG. I was handling the way MY trainer (someone he knew very well, someone who had been on the World Team) wanted me to handle my dog. I got completely flustered. It was a learning experience. THAT will never happen again, I'm done being polite. But oh I left there wondering why the *bleep* I was doing this.....


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## Mrs.K

mareg said:


> "Why do you train in Schutzhund"?
> 
> I ask myself that every time I go to a club.....getting much harder to answer.
> 
> I know why I train my dogs....I love it. Schutzhund on the other hand is great but the people......


This is exactly why I stopped doing it in Germany. It was just not worth it. 

And another very important aspect is the helper. 

Once, only once I didn't step in fast enough and let the helper ruin all the work we put into Yukon. Thankfully he recovered from it but it did throw us back. 

It all stands and falls with the helper. If you don't have the right one, or you are not experienced enough to see when you have to step in and say "NO! You will NOT do that with my dog." it can take one time and a helper can drive your dog into avoidance.


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## DolphinGirl

I dont belong to a club, but I do train with people who train in SchH. Reason I do it? To build confidence in my pup. He was a confident pup until he was attacked by a Huskey as a young puppy. I know he will never title, but we have fun and that's what is important to me.


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## mareg

I can feel your pain Mrs K. Before each training session you should ask "what are our goals for this session"? "What should I do during the session"? If the helper cant give you an idea of what he/she wants to do think again about letting them work the dog. "Lets see what happens" isnt a training plan. 

Then get through the session and ask questions AFTER the session is finished. As long as you are respectful the helper should not be upset about you wanting to learn about protection. It will help him/her in the future. 

No training is better than bad training or training without a plan.

Yeah, shutzhund is tough at times.


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## Joker

Mrs.K said:


> This is exactly why I stopped doing it in Germany. It was just not worth it.
> 
> And another very important aspect is the helper.
> 
> Once, only once I didn't step in fast enough and let the helper ruin all the work we put into Yukon. Thankfully he recovered from it but it did throw us back.
> 
> It all stands and falls with the helper. If you don't have the right one, or you are not experienced enough to see when you have to step in and say "NO! You will NOT do that with my dog." it can take one time and a helper can drive your dog into avoidance.


I know people that can crush a dog but if ya got a good dog if the helper loops off a paw the dog should do it with 3 if its a good one.


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## Mrs.K

Joker said:


> I know people that can crush a dog but if ya got a good dog if the helper loops off a paw the dog should do it with 3 if its a good one.


Yes, if it happens once or twice it should recover from it. But if a dog is getting crushed repeatedly over months it might take a little longer to come back if they come back at all, depending on how they got crushed. 

Especially inexperienced people rely on the "mercy" of the helper and the experienced club members.


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## GregK

Joker said:


> You dont train a really good German Shepherd the same way you train a Mali.


What are some of the differences?

I consider Ellis one of the best at what he does. Don't know about his SchH expertise but he's a darn good ring sport trainer.


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## mareg

well, a handler shouldnt have to worry about their dog having enough to work through getting a leg lopped off. That is why he/she is called a "helper". It is about training.....up until the test at which point the neutral helper is called a "decoy" and he/she tests your dog.

The end result for protection is to work the dog confidently through aggression...which takes alot of time and training....much more than producing a sleeve sucker. 

Each dog should be worked as an idividual whether it is a GSD or Mali. You cant work every dog the same. Schutzhund was developed to test the GSD not a mali.

Yep, there are people out there who can and will crush your dog either accidently or on pupose. When I get to the point I just tell the handler "I dont like you and dont understand what it is you want, I cant work your dog anymore".


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## cliffson1

It is up to the person who is holding the leash to determine their dog can't handle certain training and cease from involving the dog if it is crushing them. Having said that, anything short of physical abuse a good dog should recover from and should not crush a dog. Its like basic training in the military....a normal person with no mental/physical impairments should be able to cope with the stress and physicality that you are exposed to. So should our breed.


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## suzzyq01

i started Schz with my GSD pup around 5-6 months. He is a DDR and doesn't have a ton of prey drive. So we tapered off since it wasn't worth spending the money for the training if he was going to just take a nap. 

He is now almost a year old and the drive has increased but the focus is still all over the place. I recently looked into PSA which I tend to like better since it teaches the dogs the same basic things as ScHz but leans more towards real world protective experiences. At least thats what I got from reading the manual and what is involved in each level of titling. 

Does anyone have any experience with PSA vs Schz? 

We are working on focus now and the drive will be created once focus is on point.....right?


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## Robin

I am new to the sport! I have found awesome new friends in my club and all across the country because of it. A new aquaintance online in Arizona led me to find a Schutzhund Club (I live in Delaware) We have awesome comraderie in our club and lots of laughs, and mainly I believe the dogs love it. Try it and find a great club its excersize for you and your best friend and you'll have fun to !!


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## Chris Wild

mareg said:


> That is why he/she is called a "helper". It is about training.....up until the test at which point the neutral helper is called a "decoy" and he/she tests your dog.


This is a very common misconception, that I think bears pointing out because it does go with the original purpose of the test.

The helper is NOT called a helper because he helps the dog, or helps dog and handler in training. The term came into being because in a trial he is the judge's helper. The judge cannot evaluate the dog without his assistance.

In SchH the helper is always called the helper, be it training or trial, for that reason. The term "decoy" is not used in SchH, nor is there a difference in terminology for his person from training to trial. May seem like simple semantics, but it really is more than that.


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## Chris Wild

I really have no interest in the debate of who should or shouldn't do SchH. While I do have strong feelings on this issue, sadly I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind, nor do I think a lot of people who have strong opinions one way or the other really have enough understanding or experience in SchH on which to base those opinions, or are able to come about that opinion in an objective manner that isn't tainted by their love of their own dog. That's not directed at anyone in particular, in this thread or otherwise, just a general statement on the discussion as a whole whenever it crops up.

So back to the actual topic, of why do people do SchH.

I do it because I enjoy it immensely. I enjoy the challenge, the time spent with my dog, the bond built between me and my dog, the greater understanding of who my dog is that comes from the whole experience, and the comraderie of my fellow SchH folks some of whom are my closest friends.

I do other activities with my dogs as well, and of course first and foremost they are companions. But when it comes to building a working relationship between me and my dogs, pushing the envelope for both dog and handler, and really seeing the core of the dog, none of the other venues in which I've participated are as challenging, enlightening or rewarding as SchH. While I enjoy other things, having done SchH for many years they don't hold the same interest for me, and really seem "small potatoes" in comparison. SchH, unlike other venues (obedience, agility, rally) isn't something just any dog, or even any GSD, can do. Much less do well.

Probably the biggest reason though is that I love GSDs, and love seeing them do what they are created to do and giving my dogs a breed/temperament suited "job". Their abilities are one of the reasons I have these dogs, and therefore I naturally find great fulfillment in giving them a chance to develop and utilize those abilities. Of the work for which the GSD is uniquely suited, and which in turn is uniquely suited for the GSD, SchH is simply the one to which I have the most access and which fits with my lifestyle. I've no desire to be a cop, so will never handle a K9. I don't have the stomach or "nerves" myself for SAR, nor the ability to give it the committment it deserves, so that is out. While I'd love to have enough land to have livestock grazing all over and get 200 sheep to herd, that isn't going to happen. So SchH fills that niche of providing a venue in which my dogs and myself can participate in something that just goes with the GSD breed like peas and carrots. I love that. I love doing something with my dogs that fits who and what they are and what the breed was intended to be, and is so intertwined with the heritage of this breed. If my breed of interest were something else, I'd still see myself doing the equivalent with whatever that breed was. If I were into huskies, I'd probably be into mushing. If I were into retrievers, pointers, upland bird dogs, I'd be into hunting. If sight hounds, lure coursing. There is something special about seeing a dog do what it, and the generations of it's breed before it, were created to do and SchH affords me that opportunity with my GSDs.


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## clearcreekranch

Well said, Chris!


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## Catu

I love SAR more than anything in the world, the reasons are matter of another thread. That being said, I can't do SAR as I wish, but I still belong to my team and help in wathever I can. 

In the meantime I enjoy Schutzhund because of what it teaches me. SchH requires a lot of precision, and i do not mean only precision on the exercises, though I enjoy it, but extreme precision in how subtle things affect dogs, behavior performance, attitude, etc.

Just this weekend I was training with my team and I redesigned all the exercise because I didn't like the barking (alert) of the dog. It was not about how much points the judge will take from you if there is a pitched bark, it was about how the dog was insecure of what she was supposed to do on that situation and showing it in a bark that could, and had been early, be better. And that is thanks what I've learnt doing my experiments (because training is to say too much, without a real club) in Schutzhund.

Now I admit that if I had something like PSA around here... it would grasp my interest a lot more


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## Joker

Joker said:


> JMO Michael is a great dog and people trainer not a great Schutzhund trainer. I will say I'm a better dog trainer from what I learned from him.
> Here's what I think, he trains comfortable and leaves allot on the table especially with the good German Shepherd. You dont train a really good German Shepherd the same way you train a Mali. Even the people that have big Schutzhund success with the Mals train with the good and great German Shepherd trainers.


He trains Mali's and ring sports "apples and oranges" Your going to have to figure out the difference for your self, come out and train with us and we can talk, I'm a Schutzhund trainer and a German Shepherd Dog guy.



GregK said:


> What are some of the differences?
> I consider Ellis one of the best at what he does. Don't know about his SchH expertise but he's a darn good ring sport trainer.


And that's pretty much what I think too.


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## Joker

Chris Wild said:


> This is a very common misconception, that I think bears pointing out because it does go with the original purpose of the test.
> 
> The helper is NOT called a helper because he helps the dog, or helps dog and handler in training. The term came into being because in a trial he is the judge's helper. The judge cannot evaluate the dog without his assistance.
> 
> In SchH the helper is always called the helper, be it training or trial, for that reason. The term "decoy" is not used in SchH, nor is there a difference in terminology for his person from training to trial. May seem like simple semantics, but it really is more than that.


There ought to be a sticky Schutzhund 101 regarding basic Schutzhund information.


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## GregK

_


Joker said:



JMO Michael is a great dog and people trainer not a great Schutzhund trainer. I will say I'm a better dog trainer from what I learned from him.

Click to expand...

_


Joker said:


> _Here's what I think, he trains comfortable and leaves allot on the table especially with the good German Shepherd. You dont train a really good German Shepherd the same way you train a Mali. Even the people that have big Schutzhund success with the Mals train with the good and great German Shepherd trainers._





Joker said:


> He trains Mali's and ring sports "apples and oranges" Your going to have to figure out the difference for your self, come out and train with us and we can talk, I'm a Schutzhund trainer and a German Shepherd Dog guy.


What are the differences? You made the statement. What doesn't he do for GSD's that you or another SchH does? What training skills does he lack when it comes to SchH and German Shepherds?


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## mareg

Schutzhund 101? Who cares what the person doing the protection work is called? When I first got into sch and I heard the term "helper".....thought..wow thats odd. You cant have your own terminology? As long as you know the guy is training the dog up until the point it is tested...whats the big deal.

Someone posted a few posts earlier that it is up to the person at the end of the leash to know when a dog is feeling to much pressure.....What? You debate a word like "helper" but leave that one alone? A new person is supposed to understand when its dog is feeling to much pressure? 

Wow, the schutzhund club mentality carries right over into forums.


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## cliffson1

And why can't a new person determine if a dog is feeling too much pressure? Dogs are not coming on this board complaining about the methods and purposes of Sch. People are. All dogs are NOT cut out for Sch....FACT, this is not the dogs fault but unreputable breeders who donot breed for what the dog was made for. So if going to Sch training it is apparent that the dog is not responding, is very stressed, does not possess the ability or genetics, it is up to the person holding the leash to remedy the situation. If the owner of the dog or the person holding the leash can't see the obvious disconnect taking place, well maybe this isn't the breed for them.


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## Samba

I have unfortunately seen new handlers who did not recognize the stress and problems going on. Even bloody diarrhea from the dog prior to taking the field due to stress. 

If someone is very new they may not realize what is going on. Unfortunately, the situation where the handler needs to be astute is usually the one where no one is likely to tell them it is not going well. If they are lucky they will go to the guy who will run their green dog off the field right away and get it over with.

Just some of my experiences.


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## Mrs.K

Because most of the time it's a first time dog owner that can't even tell fear-aggression from protecting him. People need to grow with their dog and with what they do. NOBODY wakes up and can read body language. 

Most people can't even read the bodylanguage of their spouse, how in the world are they supposed to read the body language of a dog. 

It takes a lot of training to understand dogs, their psychology, how much pressure you can put onto a dog, what training method is the right one. 

Which is WHY you have training directors and helpers. If anyone would wake up knowing everything what would you need a training director for?


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## Chris Wild

mareg said:


> Schutzhund 101? Who cares what the person doing the protection work is called? When I first got into sch and I heard the term "helper".....thought..wow thats odd. You cant have your own terminology? As long as you know the guy is training the dog up until the point it is tested...whats the big deal.
> 
> Someone posted a few posts earlier that it is up to the person at the end of the leash to know when a dog is feeling to much pressure.....What? You debate a word like "helper" but leave that one alone? A new person is supposed to understand when its dog is feeling to much pressure?
> 
> Wow, the schutzhund club mentality carries right over into forums.


The terminology DOES matter because of the misconceptions many people get about it. More than once I and I'm sure others have heard people, usually those who fall into the anti-SchH, pro-ringsport/PSA/whatever crowd, diss SchH because "all the helpers do is help the dog, even in trial" and use the title of that person as proof of that. Either they don't know where the title came from, or ignore that in favor of twisting things to support their argument.

And I don't see what that has to do with a handler being an advocate for their own dog, or how correcting someone on the misuse of vocabulary has anything to do that. One doesn't need experience to be able to see if their dog is having fun or not. Nor does it take experience to just step up and ask a question about what is being done and why if there are any reservations on the handler's part, and then after getting more information decide whether or not to move forward or back up.


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## KJenkins

Why do I train? I asked myself that Tuesday at training when my dog decided not to out on the long bite and I basically had to pry him off. I can honestly say that up until that bite my dog has never not outed off the man in close to two years. Of course he decides to come up with this neat little quirk 4 days before we trial for a SchH2. I train today so hopefully what ever gremlin possessed him has left the building.


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## Mrs.K

> And I don't see what that has to do with a handler being an advocate for their own dog, or how correcting someone on the misuse of vocabulary has anything to do that. One doesn't need experience to be able to see if their dog is having fun or not. Nor does it take experience to just step up and ask a question about what is being done and why if there are any reservations on the handler's part, and then after getting more information decide whether or not to move forward or back up.


Chris, there will always be people out there that can't see if a dog has fun or not. There are people out there that can't tell if what the helper is doing right or wrong and there are people out there who would NEVER question the authority of the helper even if they know that he's doing wrong by the dog. 

That is why you have a training director who is supposed to guide new people through the program, answer questions and step in if needed. 

However, people need to learn to trust "their gut" and simply leave. 
If they have a bad taste in their mouth by what they have seen, leave. Don't take the dog out so they can "test" it. Just leave!

But it's the most common thing that I have seen in Germany. People come to the club for the first time (and I was guilty of that too), brought their dog, watched for an hour and were asked to bring their dog in so the helper could "_test_" the dog. 

My experience is that most of the helpers don't care about the history of the dog or of what needs to be done to build him further up. They use whatever method they know on any dog and will tell you that you either train with what they tell you to do or you are free to leave. 

So if anyone new is out there. Don't take your dogs the first day you go out there. WATCH! WATCH AND LISTEN!
How do they talk about their fellow members, how do they treat each others, how do they talk about people that are not there. How do they treat their dogs, do you feel good or bad about what you see. If you feel bad and if it gives you a funny feeling, don't bother, LEAVE! Find something else you can do with your dog. Schutzhund is NOT everything. There is a lot more stuff out there you can do with your dogs and luckily you have a German Shepherd and if you have a good dog, you can pretty much do anything. It doesn't have to be Schutzhund 

And if you really want to do it, see if you can find a less serious club because those super serious clubs can be a pain to deal with


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## Chris Wild

Two well known sayings come to mind.
"Ignorance of the law is no defense" and "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Experienced or inexperienced, 2 things never change. That the owner knows his dog better than anyone and that the owner is the only one ultimately responsible for the well being of his dog.

Yes, I think all of us at one time or another, maybe early on and maybe later, have fallen into the trap of letting something happen that shouldn't. I see this most frequently at seminars, where people are starstruck at getting to spend time with Mr. Big Name Trainer, even moreso if he has a nifty out of town accent, and forget to stand up for their dog. No one is perfect, and everyone can and probably will fall into that trap at least once.

The difference is what the do afterwards, what they learn and who they blame. Many will hold onto their claim of ignorance and put the blame solely on the other person.. again and again and again.. totally dodging any sort of personal accountability. The world over the modern way of thinking seems to be that everything is someone else's fault, and that happens in dog training too. Others will lay the blame where it belongs, on themselves, and never let it happen again. If someone fails to listen to their gut, fails to ask questions on something they don't understand and then carefully evaluate the answers, fails to stand up and say "no", and their dog suffers for it. And especially if that person continues to do so, they have no one but themselves to blame.


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## Mrs.K

Chris Wild said:


> Two well known sayings come to mind.
> "Ignorance of the law is no defense" and "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
> 
> Experienced or inexperienced, 2 things never change. That the owner knows his dog better than anyone and that the owner is the only one ultimately responsible for the well being of his dog.
> 
> Yes, I think all of us at one time or another, maybe early on and maybe later, have fallen into the trap of letting something happen that shouldn't. I see this most frequently at seminars, where people are starstruck at getting to spend time with Mr. Big Name Trainer, even moreso if he has a nifty out of town accent, and forget to stand up for their dog. No one is perfect, and everyone can and probably will fall into that trap at least once.
> 
> The difference is what the do afterwards, what they learn and who they blame. Many will hold onto their claim of ignorance and put the blame solely on the other person.. again and again and again.. totally dodging any sort of personal accountability. The world over the modern way of thinking seems to be that everything is someone else's fault, and that happens in dog training too. Others will lay the blame where it belongs, on themselves, and never let it happen again. If someone fails to listen to their gut, fails to ask questions on something they don't understand and then carefully evaluate the answers, fails to stand up and say "no", and their dog suffers for it. And especially if that person continues to do so, they have no one but themselves to blame.


That I totally agree with. 

However, it's also a learning process. Saying "No" is not easy, especially when you are the newbie and everybody else is doing it for over 20 years.


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## Vandal

I suppose we are getting off track here again but oh well. While I can agree with Mrs K from her viewpoint there is another side of it as well. I have advised my clients and others to not participate in SchH unless they have the ability to either say STOP, or NO to someone who is presented as "knowing more" than them but there is another way to look at this as well. 

First, I have a new policy now as far as my club goes. I ask that all people interested in SchH visit every club in the area before they come to mine. The reason I do that is for a few reasons. First, all clubs are different. Some are more into show dogs, others are more into socializing while there are others that are more "serious" about the training. The people interested need to figure out where both they, and their dog, fit in. Because of the lack of clubs and because some clubs have closed membership, many people think they can just join any old club with any old dog and everything will be just fine. Nothing could be further from the truth. The interested parties have some responsibility and yes, I realize that is what Mrs K is saying but I think there is a bit more to it as well . 

This is what I have observed over the last few decades of SchH training. The people show up at a club and think that everyone should bend over backwards explaining every little detail to them. They are there sucking all the effort out of everyone and not seeming to realize just how much work it is for those people to be helping them and also training their own dog,. Or how difficult it is for the helper or TD to be working everyone's dog and then trying to work their own . Many people are not quite thinking it through when they are there with their high expectations for a mere annual club membership fee. Did I mention that if they can get away with it and no one asks right away , they won't offer to pay what they were told is necessary to join? Yeah, that too. Interestingly, those are many times, the people who complain the most about what they are not getting.

I can tell you from experience just how exhausting teaching can be. It requires lots of talking, answering endless questions and, for some people, endlessly explaining either why you did something or why you tell them what to do in a certain way. It is fine with them that you are there spinning plates trying to help them but if you raise your voice to try to get them to hear you, or you display any type of frustration, oh my, you are any number of things they can think of. They are then there on the sidelines whining with anyone else they can find who feels the same way. Never mind that they are in the wrong club, you are supposed to adjust everything to them and their dog. Like Mrs K said, if it doesn't feel right, quit. Go to another club where you don't feel that need to complain to anyone who will listen. Just like it is not fair to a dog to be working like something he isn't , asking the people there training to be someone they are not is not fair either. Have the sense to know where you are. If you are serious and you really mean you are serious, then come prepared for serious training. If you just want to socialize and do some weekend training with your dog, find a club that is willing to do that and that fits your personality. 

I have seen "trainers" who show up at the club and for years, they ask the helper what to do with their dog. The helper is supposed to remember what to do with everyone's dog and his or her own dog. When the helper's dog is worked, it is usually on someone not as skilled and he too expects the helper to tell him everything. The people who already worked their dogs are either gone, or busy chatting and never offer to help the helper/TD with his or her dog. It can be as simple as being a distraction, playing judge, you name it, but most don't ask or always have to be asked. Asking them requires you to get their attention and that is usually not easy. 

I personally, have spent huge amounts of time and effort learning how to work dogs as the helper and also how to train as the handler. No one fed the information to me on a silver platter, that is for sure. I had to learn the hard way and I can assure you, plenty of very good trainers yelled at me or treated me in a less than kind fashion. I learned that the really good helpers play the role and when they are in that frame of mind, asking the handler with a please and thank you just doesn't happen. None of that deterred me because I really had the desire to train dogs and especially to be a good helper. I watched whatever videos I could find, read what was available and attended seminars so I could watch the good helpers work the dogs. During the entire time I have participated in SchH, I have not witnessed very many handlers doing something similar. Once again, they want it all handed to them at the club in the very little time available because, well, that is convenient for them. They want you to tell them exactly what to do, every single time, and then complain if you forgot to tell them something or didn't say it in just the right way. Heaven forbid, they screw up in the handling of their dog in the trail because then, of course, the helper work or what the TD did or did not tell them is to blame. Then we have the " last week you told me to do this and now you are telling me something different" syndrome. Well...last week your dog was not doing what he is doing THIS week. 

My point is , there is only so much effort people can put into your dog. YOU have to do most of it and it is not reasonable to ask for more of your fair share of attention. I used to work almost all of the dogs in a very large club. Probably 25 dogs every night we trained. I can't tell you how many times I would forget to work my own dogs and when I realized I had, I was standing there drenched in sweat watching the last tail lights leaving the parking lot. It was rare for anyone to be concerned about my dogs or even ask if I wanted to work them. They just took what they wanted and left. 


So, decide first if SchH is right for you and your dog. Don't go to a club expecting them to change every little thing to fit your personality, find a club that does already or is at least close. If there is not one, maybe form your own. There are people willing to help a new club get going and some won't even charge you for it, although it would be a nice gesture to offer. 

Just saying, there are two sides to the reasons why people might appear to be surly or unfriendly when maybe they are just kind of fed up.


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## Joker

GregK said:


> What are the differences? You made the statement. What doesn't he do for GSD's that you or another SchH does? What training skills does he lack when it comes to SchH and German Shepherds?


I'm not going to rip on Michael he's a excellent ring coach. Mondio is pretty one dimensional as the dogs and training.
A good Schutzhund training session should be a mental and physical roller coaster ride as it goes the same for the trial, the helper provides the ride. A working lines German Shepherd is a utility dog they can lead the blind bring in the cows or be a member of a SWAT team a good one has several facets knowing and understanding all of them and working with all of them is a art in and of its self.
I like and am familiar with the west German dogs Czech, East German differ some from the west dog. This is a broad generic statement but you work each of them a little different and the reactions you may get may be are different. Same goes for different breeds of dogs.
I haven't seen Michael training differ much in his approach to how he trains various types of dogs. There should be a big difference on how you approach and train a s#%**er compared to monster freak of a dog.
Greg that's the best I can or care to do, go out and educate your self on the field not on dog boards.


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## mareg

I dont worry about people in other sports think the word "helper" means. It is what it is. You may want to have a talk after your next club trial after he/she finishes working the dogs.....I have a feeling there may be at least one dog in there that may have needed worked a little differently to pass. I have a sneaking suspicion that most of the dogs in that trial will have not seen the helper as a foe at all....just the guy holding the arm toy.

Protection isnt about the dog just having fun. You are supposed to be training it through aggression. If you want only fun....flyball is an option. Yes, a dog should be bred to be able to handle the pressure and enough prey to relieve it.

A new person with an 8 month old pup may think that showing the teeth and hackles are a good thing.....since they are doing protection. Its up to the "helper" to explain it to the new mom that may not be the right frame of mind for this puppy at this time. New people hear the word "protection" and think it is ok for the puppy to be looking this way....its protection after all...right? They also fail to understand how labor intensive it is to train a dog properly in protection....that is why we are left with much of what we have today....to dificult...lets keep it a game.

I agree not everyone should own a dog that is capable of doing real protection work. 

The "helper" also reserves the right to say "no, I refuse to cross that line with your dog, get off the field, please". 

It amazes me to see people complaining about helping new people but see lengthy posts on forums...doesnt add up.

One more thing that amazes me is to see a new person at a club that cant get thier dogs to heel let alone get it on the field for bite work then see them posting protection "advice" on forums the next day.

I do schutzhund because I love to train my dogs.


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## lhczth

Chris Wild said:


> Two well known sayings come to mind.
> "Ignorance of the law is no defense" and "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
> 
> Experienced or inexperienced, 2 things never change. That the owner knows his dog better than anyone and that the owner is the only one ultimately responsible for the well being of his dog.
> 
> Yes, I think all of us at one time or another, maybe early on and maybe later, have fallen into the trap of letting something happen that shouldn't. I see this most frequently at seminars, where people are starstruck at getting to spend time with Mr. Big Name Trainer, even moreso if he has a nifty out of town accent, and forget to stand up for their dog. No one is perfect, and everyone can and probably will fall into that trap at least once.
> 
> The difference is what the do afterwards, what they learn and who they blame. Many will hold onto their claim of ignorance and put the blame solely on the other person.. again and again and again.. totally dodging any sort of personal accountability. The world over the modern way of thinking seems to be that everything is someone else's fault, and that happens in dog training too. Others will lay the blame where it belongs, on themselves, and never let it happen again. If someone fails to listen to their gut, fails to ask questions on something they don't understand and then carefully evaluate the answers, fails to stand up and say "no", and their dog suffers for it. And especially if that person continues to do so, they have no one but themselves to blame.


This is well said, Chris. :thumbup:


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## lhczth

Why do I train in SchH? For the dogs, and you would probably have to know me to understand what I mean.


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## Sarah'sSita

I train in schutzhund because I love the challenge. It is so gratifying to me and the sport has re-ignited the word "passion" in my life. My GSDs love it. I am not breeding my dogs, but by succeeding I feel I am "tipping my hat" toward the lineage of the dogs and demonstrate what the breeder's intentions as a working breed are. Its my way of thanking the breeder, too. 

As far as Michael Ellis and Greg Doud comparison. BOTH assist with the essential foundation to a working dog: fostering an excellent working relationship by developing drives, shaping behaviors and teaching clear communication. But in terms of bitework HUGE difference as the goals of each sport are different. I am a schutzhunder, I go toward Greg hands down over Michael for developing the bitework for Schutzhund. If I did ring I would go to Michael!


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## W.Oliver

Michael Ellis is a dog trainer first, and although he knows GSDs and SchH, he is by far a Mali and Mondio guy. Having said that, I simply went to Michael for his puppy development program, so breed and sport were not as relevant.......and I was not disappointed the entire week. 

I have trained/attended seminars with Helmut Raiser, T. Floyd, Ivan Balabanov, and others....what I would tell anyone is this; based on my *"opinion with little to no SchH experience"*, Michael Ellis has a gift not only with dogs, but in his capacity to convey information to the trainer.

We expect balance in our dogs to consider them good, why wouldn't that hold true with our teachers? A lack of people skills and just telling it like it is...is no different than an unbalanced civil dog....poor genetics. Can an old dog learn new tricks?

I have plenty of the two key ingredients to learn at least something from anyone...moxie and money. I am not in California the entire month of June.:wub:


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## Vandal

Welcome back Wayne, I missed you. 


> Michael Ellis has a gift not only with dogs, but in his capacity to convey information to the trainer


Yes, but does what Michael tell you burn as deep as what I say? 
I hope you are obsessing about what you learned, as much as you are about my comments on a dog forum. hehehe.

You made the right choice with Michael, I have heard he is a real "people person" and you have to go where you can learn.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> Welcome back Wayne, I missed you.
> 
> Yes, but does what Michael tell you burn as deep as what I say?
> I hope you are obsessing about what you learned, as much as you are about my comments on a dog forum. hehehe.
> 
> You made the right choice with Michael, I have heard he is a real "people person" and you have to go where you can learn.


That post fails to test my nerve, and does not motivate me to come up the leash??? Are you OK? Is anything wrong?

I sincerely believe you have a great deal to teach me...it simply wouldn't be easy...but what of value is?


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## Vandal

> I have plenty of the two key ingredients to learn at least something from anyone...moxie and money.


Just a few things you should consider Wayne. First, it is not just about the teacher but the student as well. 

Second, unlike the people you listed, I don't accept money for SchH training. This is my hobby and always has been. I have no intention of making it a business. So, now all you have is moxie. I know lots of people who have that....on the internet anyway. 

Besides, why ruin such a warm and friendly, online relationship by meeting in person?


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> First, it is not just about the teacher but the student as well.


Agreed.




Vandal said:


> Second, unlike the people you listed, I don't accept money for SchH training. This is my hobby and always has been. I have no intention of making it a business.


I have kept aquariums since 1969...a passion. In 2004 I opened a retail aquarium store on the side, while I continued to work at my profession. At home today, I have a betta bowl...that's it. The business changed my passion. I have been training GSDs as a hobby since 1997....I am extremely guarded about it. I not only understand completely, I respect and admire that statement/quote.



Vandal said:


> So, now all you have is moxie. I know lots of people who have that....on the internet anyway.


Agreed, which is a component of why I go by my name online. I don't hide.



Vandal said:


> Besides, why ruin such a warm and friendly, online relationship by meeting in person?


Here is the only point to which I can argue. Refer back to your initial point.


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## dOg

So when in June in MI is the informal helper seminar?
Might I at least spectate?

opcorn:

I'll bring a cooler full of ice cold water.


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## holland

www.germanshepherddog.com - check under events in that area


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## W.Oliver

dOg said:


> So when in June in MI is the informal helper seminar?


Dan, you know what I think of my Helper work...adequate with focus on not injuring a dog! I would be interested in learning on the handler/training side simply from observation.....:gonefishing: my problem is every time I see Lisa, I hug her....classical conditioning has her going into avoidance, and Anne is one of those who doesn't have to be burned to know the flame is hot. So can you say, "slim to none"! 

Is it just me or do my posts lack shame? :gsdbeggin:

holland, you're a good soul, thanks for the post.


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## dOg

shame is such a subjective thing...who can say!

I just figured before telling you guys to get room, I'd suggest a field first.



But seriously, I'd love to meet Anne and watch her work dogs...
I'd even stick around and wear the sleeve if she'd let me.


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## W.Oliver

Vandal said:


> Besides, why ruin such a warm and friendly, online relationship by meeting in person?


The romance would certainly be at risk!, but I am willing to take the chance! The idea of you scolding me in person brings-up my drive. The other uncertainty is that I might make you smile, or dare I suggest, even laugh.:laugh:


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## GSDElsa

anne....wayne.....bad visuals starting now!


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## dOg

OK, to get back on topic...
I trained in SchH because I wanted to learn more about it and though warned of it's natural ability to become habit, took in all I could.
I had never heard much about it until AFTER I had a strapping 6 mos old pup who had been perhaps over socialized and over OB'd to ever title, so it took a long while to progress, but along the way, we learned a lot, had fun, and though we didn't excel in the sport, our bond grew stronger and while his OB isn't stellar in the SchH world, it shines among the masses. His protection is weak, but most perps aren't going to know or want to test 3 years of work to find out if it's adequate enough to bleed. Tracking is his best phase, and that we still enjoy. 

In short, a highlight in my life's resume I don't regret one bit. I do miss it, but don't think my happy go lucky goofball does as much.


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## Doc

Wayne,
You need to be back-tied and beat with a stick. But then again, you'd probably like that!


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## Jason L

Might be crate time for Wayne ...


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## BlackthornGSD

KJenkins said:


> Why do I train? I asked myself that Tuesday at training when my dog decided not to out on the long bite and I basically had to pry him off. I can honestly say that up until that bite my dog has never not outed off the man in close to two years. Of course he decides to come up with this neat little quirk 4 days before we trial for a SchH2. I train today so hopefully what ever gremlin possessed him has left the building.


Where you training/trialing now Keith?

(Feel free to respond by PM or email.)

Christine


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## BlackthornGSD

I burned out on schutzhund training 9 years ago. It wasn't actually the training that burned me out--it was the travel and the cost and the people and politics and the negativity. I saw some of the best, most creative, most joyful training I'd ever seen--and I saw some of the harshest and most uncaring. I love the knowledge I gained about dogs and behavior and training--and I love that feeling of having your dog have an amazingly good time out on the field and coming off feeling 10 feet tall.

As far as some of those who say they have never seen abusive training, I am glad to hear that--I truly hope that some of the harshest of methods I saw have have died off.

I saw far more abusive or near-abusive training than I care to ever witness again. And if I do see it again, I hope I have the strength to speak up and call it what it is rather than just muttering on the sidelines or walking back to my car nauseated.


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## KJenkins

BlackthornGSD said:


> Where you training/trialing now Keith?
> 
> (Feel free to respond by PM or email.)
> 
> Christine


I train down in Mt. Ulla,NC at Piedmont Schutzhund Club these days. I trialed this past weekend and barely managed to stay SG but my 34 month old was 91/94/85"a" 270SG and is now SchH2. This was the old man of the bunch retirement trial at 8 1/2 and he got his StP.3 with an 87G. First and only StP.3 Rottweiler in the US...that and $1 will get me a bowl of soup...lol.


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## Vandal

> I saw far more abusive or near-abusive training than I care to ever witness again. And if I do see it again, I hope I have the strength to speak up and call it what it is rather than just muttering on the sidelines or walking back to my car nauseated.


I have seen plenty of abuse but to say that "the majority" are abusing their dogs is just not correct. It is usually only a few people in entire regions that seem to taint everything. Almost always, the abuse is related to ignorance and a lack of skill . Ignorance leads directly to aggression in people and that is true in everything, not just SchH. 

I think mostly, people complain afterwards because they stood there and allowed it. There is guilt involved and IMO, not only are the people mad at the abuser, they are angry with themselves for doing nothing. Later on, they get pretty intense complaining about it. I will admit, when I was a teenager, I stood there and did nothing but not anymore. If I can't defuse what is going on by offering to help solve the problem, I will intervene on behalf of the dog. If the handler wants to fight with me instead, that's fine as well . I don't see lots of abuse and while there were idiots years ago, it was not rampant. Like I said, one or two people can make it FEEL that way but when I think about it, only a few people in all the years I have done SchH really stand out.

Complaining here will do nothing to stop it. I always offer to help people train their dogs because I know when I do, I am lessening the chance of that happening. People get frustrated after they create training problems. So, if I can prevent that from happening by helping or offering advice to fix it, I do. 

BTW, you would be amazed at how fast you can defuse anger in people by simply offering to help...and yes, I realize there are people who PLAN their abusive training sessions but I see far fewer people like that. Those types only understand the 2 x 4 approach.


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## BlackthornGSD

Vandal said:


> I have seen plenty of abuse but to say that "the majority" are abusing their dogs is just not correct. ...
> 
> BTW, you would be amazed at how fast you can defuse anger in people by simply offering to help...and yes, I realize there are people who PLAN their abusive training sessions but I see far fewer people like that. Those types only understand the 2 x 4 approach.


I totally agree that it's not the majority. But I ran into cases of abuse by the people who were supposed to know more and better. The cases of anger-abuse that I saw were generally stopped by the training director or owner of the field--thankfully.

But, in the first case when I wish I'd intervened, I'd been doing schutzhund less than a year and it was the training director using the e-collar on the table on a dog he had in for training. 

A few years later, it wasn't directly abusive--it was the "bigger hammer" method--that is, what they were doing with a regular electric collar or prong collar wasn't getting "as much" result as they wanted, so they went to the sharpened prong. The training itself wasn't abusive (they weren't being directly abusive, just asking for obedience under distraction), but the tool used was. 

Nowadays, I can verbalize, "if your corrections aren't working, don't use a bigger hammer, teach your dog better." Then I could just say "no, I am not going to do that with my dog; and I don't really think you should either."

It's been more than 10 years, and I don't think this type was common or widespread even then--but it is (or was) out there.


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## Vandal

I have never understood the sharpened prong idea. I think you have to be a tremendous MORON to want to use one of those. That reminds me of the now "big name" trainer's idea of using nails in the sleeve cover to ensure the dog would bite in the center. I remember being speechless, ( not for long but longer than normal  ) when I saw his "brilliant" idea. I asked him if he had already called the emergency clinic to tell them the dog was on the way. It really had not occurred to him that the dog might miss. That is what I mean when I say it is related to ignorance and I guess I will add stupidity as well. BTW, the cover was never used. 

Years ago, a club member asked me to handle the line while he worked his dog. I was there helping and reached for the dog's collar whereupon my hand was cut in several places by the sharpened pinch that I did not know was on the dog. To say that made me angry was an understatement but not because my hand hurt. The idea of asking me to help without telling me that was on the dog was outrageous. The collar was delivered back to that jerk, fast pitch style into his chest.


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## Vandal

Oh, and about Michigan...I am not going but I won't be answering the front gate bell for the entire month of June.


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## gagsd

If you happen to visit Indiana instead, I would love to be a fly on a tree.... No walls at a training field!


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## onyx'girl

Anne, how dissapointing...are you sure you won't be in MI, or just staying low/profile? 
There are lots of places to see, and trial fields to play on!


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## gagsd

I think she can't tell us where she will be.... because too many peope will show up!


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## lhczth

If she comes to MI she know she won't be bothered. She would be staying with me.


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## Vandal

Yeah...and she has that really MEAN parrot. No one would dare....if they know what's good for them anyway.


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## onyx'girl

I have a mean parrot, too....


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## Vandal

Yeah? Lisa's parrot is sneaky though. Sends the dog to guard the restroom with the house guest in it. I am sure he thought that was funny. Sick bird.


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## W.Oliver

onyx'girl said:


> I have a mean parrot, too....


So do I....I didn't know the parrot would be a qualifier! Of course you and I have African Greys....I am sure the requirement calls for an Amazon.


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## onyx'girl

My parrot will trick you, talk to you in my voice, so you think its me but I'm not even home, he will call or correct the dogs in my voice also. They listen to him with reverence!
I also have a mean lovebird, she is a terror in a feathered body.


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## Vandal

Doesn't natter if you have a bird or not. I am not going to Michigan. Not because I didn't love the humidity and bugs in July, just that I have no one to watch the kennel.


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## gagsd

I just have a parakeet.


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## Lin

onyx'girl said:


> My parrot will trick you, talk to you in my voice, so you think its me but I'm not even home, he will call or correct the dogs in my voice also. They listen to him with reverence!
> I also have a mean lovebird, she is a terror in a feathered body.


My aunt has an african grey. She lives on Lake michigan, and on nice days frequently rolls the flight cage out onto the balcony. Where the bird proceeds to wolf whistle when she sees people walking up and down the dunes...


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## onyx'girl

I can send my parrot out to watch over your kennel?
Magnum schooling baby Karlo:


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## Catu

I don't own parrots, but I receive flocks of wild ones on my yard that steal my raspberries, and what is worst... they taught Akela that those are tasty!!


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## saska

Well I´m going to tell you……. what I feel , ….it is like in Spain.

There are people with many years in training and in competition, for them I think it is a sport .
They feel "one" with their dog…..they are a " team " (dog+guide )
They love competition, and work very hard,….to be there. 
It `s a way of life.

Others like me……..are beginners………
In my case, I began with my dog, 7 months ago, to obedience ….. BH, (in may - june we take the test) and after...if posible Sch1…
That´s what it´s request here in Spain for breeding

The more we learn……the more I like it, I am able to understand my dog….I`m able to make her understand what I want.

We are a team…..though I know I have to learn a lot, to become a good guide…she enjoys working….she gets mad….she barks to get into the car and drive to the training school.

She enjoys training…………..and I´ve become addicted to it.

Next weekend is the Spanish Championship..........I´ll be there encouraging my friends.


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## Ruthie

W.Oliver said:


> If SchH is a breed test, and you are not a breeder, then why train in SchH?
> 
> If only breeders were to train/title in SchH to determine breed worthiness, who would breeders sell their dogs to?


_Haven't been reading for a long, long time and missed this . I see it has been talked to death, but not much about the original topic. I thought it was an interesting topic, so I am going to answer anyway._

I train in SchH because it allows my dog to do what he was meant to do. I do lots of stuff with him, but this is his niche. Also, I really enjoy it. I like my club. I like getting outside since I have a desk job and other life responsibilities that keep me inside most of the time. It isn't like obedience classes where people are afraid of my dog, or agility where people get freaked out because my dog looks at their precious little Fifi. SchH is a place where I feel like a GSD belongs. My personal view point is that I know my dog isn't breed worthy and is already neutered. I like the idea of getting a title because I am competitive, but the world won't end if we don't make it there. We are just having a blast.

And I can't help but add...

Maybe I am just feeling a little female dogish today, but after reading this, I have to say that some of you really need to get over yourselves. It is amazing that ANYONE sicks with SchH with all the egos, politics, and insults that fly around. Who cares who has been training for 20 years that doesn't automatically make you right anymore than it makes someone who has been training for 2 months automatically an idiot. Who cares if you are a mal guy or a GSD girl or a SchH poodle trainer? Can't we just have civil discussions, train our dogs, and maybe just maybe get along a little bit?

There is enough drama in the world without us creating more. Ugh! In the scheme of life, this stuff is so petty.


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## Fast

Conflict blows away the fog and reveals truths. I think the most interesting and informative threads tend to be those that have a bit of conflict. 

Check out that snoozefest green and blue forum if you want a conflict free zone. 

"Let's look at more pictures of Fido!" Wheeeeeeeeeeee...:crazy:


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## onyx'girl

You must not be posting on that site, then fast?


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## Ruthie

Fast said:


> Conflict blows away the fog and reveals truths. I think the most interesting and informative threads tend to be those that have a bit of conflict.
> 
> Check out that snoozefest green and blue forum if you want a conflict free zone.
> 
> "Let's look at more pictures of Fido!" Wheeeeeeeeeeee...:crazy:


I think you can have conflict, discussion, disagreement and still be free of condescension, ridicule, and rude behavior. Life is too short.


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