# New tug toy for those 'My dog won't tug' people?



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

http://www.nosetouch.com/tug-it.wmv 

http://www.nosetouch.com/tug_it.htm 

There's a video to explain why it's new and better than other toys we try to use to get an unmotivated dog to tug.

Anyone try this?


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

When I had Dante in an attention class there was an Irish Wolfhound that had about as much interest in tug as flying to the moon. The instructor loaned the owner something similar and I'll be dipped if that Irish Wolfhound didn't find a love of tug!!


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## aaron.whitney (Oct 7, 2007)

No, never used it and never would. I feel that if a dog will not go after a tug with prey drive why bother.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

My agility instructor and another member of the class both use something very similar. Both use it as another tool/award in their arsenal of awards-they both have dogs with strong drives. And the instructor pulls it out with people/dogs that she needs to motivate a bit more to do/try something in class.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: AaronW No, never used it and never would. I feel that if a dog will not go after a tug with prey drive why bother.


I think some dogs have never played tug and don't know how. This Irish Wolf hound ended up loving and and worked very well for a game of tug by the end of the session of classes.


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

*Re: New tug toy for those 'My dog won't tug' peopl*

Never used it, but isn't that just trying to take food from your dog's mouth?


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## aaron.whitney (Oct 7, 2007)

I think some dogs have never played tug and don't know how. This Irish Wolf hound ended up loving and and worked very well for a game of tug by the end of the session of classes. 

[/quote]

It just seems like a waste of time to me. If a dog has a high food drive and the food drive is needed to "play tug" I would just use the food as a reward. I had to laugh at the video when the dog was given the down command and offered the tug as a "reward" when he could care less about the tug. I would rather use a dog's natural highest drive, develop it and use that as a reward during training. So far I have had good results doing that and my dog is always having fun during training.
I believe that if a dog's prey drive is their highest drive then a tug would be a good choice as a reward, high ball drive use a ball, etc.. I am sure that good results can be obtained by teaching a dog what reward you want to use, and great results come from using what the dog sees as a reward.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

AaronW - I agree, most often the best path to training is the dog's favorite reward. I was simply answering the question and giving my insight from what I saw with this dog. And he worked as well for the tug in the later classes than he did the food.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Have to say, ideally most of us would like a high prey drive dog right from the start.

Fact is, whether is because the dog came from a rescue/shelter, or wasn't played with as a puppy, or hasn't got a high high drive, I also have known people who SWORE their dog would never tug, end up with crazy tugging fanatic dogs after working on it for months.

So I know it can be better in many dogs. I know it IS worth while to try to get if you are willing to work with your dog. More tricks in my training bag, the better.

I just haven't heard of anyone trying this new toy yet. Think the idea isn't so much you are taking away the food from the dog, as much as enticing them to mouth the toy and hang on initially BECAUSE of the food. Then, as they start interacting and learning how much fun we can be to play with, the food gets weaned away for just the tugging joy.


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## MTAussie (Dec 9, 2007)

Looks like a good idea to me! Obviously not for teaching working dogs to tug, but would be helpful for pet dogs owners. Esp. those with dogs from the shelter and want to help build confidence or drive. I am going to look into this a little more, although it would probably be easy to make something similar yourself.


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## aaron.whitney (Oct 7, 2007)

Hmmmmm definately something to consider. I have seen people transfering drives before but have never seen results that good where the trained drive matches the natural drive. Perhaps in all of the cases I have seen before the trainer gave up too quickly and went back for quicker results or in the one you saw it was a drive that was never tested before. What kind of a class were you in? How long did the class last? I could always use another trick in my training bag


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

The class was an "attention" class, it was the first in their series of Competitive Obedience classes, It was 8 weeks







I took it twice, not because Dante couldn't have moved on but just because I enjoyed it.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

I've taught Khana, my three year old chow, to tug on command but there just isn't any way that the tug has become rewarding on its own. When you have a behavior that you reward, the behavior itself doesn't necessarily become rewarding. The concept of tug = reward isn't really any different than the concept of down = reward. The dog does it because a reward follows. 

Now, if you have a dog with an undeveloped (but already there) desire to tug, I can see where a toy like that may help bring out the tugging "instinct". My chows will grab onto a bone and tug on it to try to get it away from me (IF I allow the game, of course), but the tugging isn't reinforcing - getting the bone is reinforcing. So using it as a reward is useless with these dogs.

A lot of trainers really push people to get their dogs to tug or use other forms of toys as rewards, and usually those trainers have dogs with natural tug/toy drive. You learn other methods when you have dogs like mine! *L* I can use a ball or tug as a reward with my shepherds, but I better have food for the chows (or a live rat or bunny for them to chew on!).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:never seen results that good where the trained drive matches the natural drive


I would agree with that, cause I've seen some dogs with so much natural drive (that is encouraged) they almost go crazy when it's 'on'. But most normal people







don't really want THAT much insanity, they just want to have a dog that can at least key into the prey drive enough that tugging can be used as a major motivator in training.



> Quote: Perhaps in all of the cases I have seen before the trainer gave up too quickly and went back for quicker results


That is the really telling statement about most handlers. Truthfully, it's a large piece why the dogs don't tug in the first place (at least for the normal happy pups that were added to the family as young puppies). Tugging and playing with a dog is HARD WORK for the human! And if we end up with a big dog like a GSD, that's even harder. Specially if we think play is just for 'exercise' cause then throwing something is a heck of a lot easier for us, and the dog gets tired.

Only later do the same people maybe get introduced to the reason tugging is different and worth while with the interaction with the handler. By this time, we've taught our dogs to NOT tug (leave it) and we aren't really that much fun like that. So to completely re-train an older dog that 1) mom is really fun to play WITH 2) you CAN pull and drag mom around 3) HEY this is really fun ............ all that can be a challenge.

It's always funny to me how humans think so differently than dogs. Can't tell you how many of the 'My dogs don't tug' friends get discouraged and give up after a few days, cause their dog won't use the tug toy. But when further questioning is asked about how this same persons dogs play among themselves, I almost always get a surprised 'of course my dogs will use tug toys/branches/balls with each other, dog to dog'. 

So what does that really tell me? Does their dog not tug? Or does their dog not tug WITH THEM?


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: New tug toy for those 'My dog won't tug' peopl*

I actually have a toy very similar to the original posted, its called a Tug N Treat  and it comes in either a soft fabric for reluctant tuggers, or one made with nylon. I got the Tug n Treat soft for Sydney because she would NEVER tug on anything and I was looking to add something different to our training. She is extremely food driven but I wanted her to enjoy a toy reward, too.

It has worked wonderfully! She will now also tug other soft fleece ropes and such. She likes to play tug, now that she knows how, it just took something of high interest to her (food), to realize that playing tug is rewarding just like a food reward.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Just got the following response about toy drive and how this toy helps from MaryLou (who developed this tug toy):



> Quote:For those individuals that are working with their dogs in performance events where behaviors are done by the dog with the dog at a distance from the handler it can be very difficult for the dog to be properly reinforced if in fact he will only work with food. If we throw food for the dog, first of all it is difficult to have a good enough aim and frankly I can throw a toy significantly farther than I can a toy. I can throw the toy to the area where the behavior occurred that I want to reinforce, I can then run up to the dog and we can have a rousing game of tug. Now, this only works if the dog views my playing with him and the tug toy to be reinforcing. The main difference between what one writer referred to as the "Tug N Treat", assuming that it is the toy I am familiar with, is that it takes the handler to open the toy for the dog to get the food. In effect what you wind up reinforcing is the dog letting go. The "Tug It!" automatically gives the dog the food reinforcement as the dog clamps down. The harder the dog clamps down the more food reinforcement it gets.
> 
> Now of course some people will say that they can throw a ball and their dogs love balls. That is all well and good however once you throw the ball for the dog it does nothing to further the relationship you have with the dog because the dogs enjoyment of the ball has nothing to do with you whereas dogs that learn to love tugging realize over time that the best toy is always the one in which their owner is on the end of.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

I would totally disagree with her assessment of dogs and balls - most people using balls as a reward are using fetch, which is obviously a handler-interactive thing. But otherwise I can see how this tug toy would be useful. 

As others have posted, it's never bad to have another game or reward in your arsenal even if your dog isn't a natural insane tugger. I get a lot of dogs into foster care that have never had any kind of toy and don't automatically know how to play - so they have to be taught. I also get a lot of dogs who are so cowed by previous abuse that they will not even think of tugging which requires a certain confidence that it's okay to hang on to something Mom is pulling on too. For both these things, I think this toy would be great.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:- most people using balls as a reward are using fetch, which is obviously a handler-interactive thing.


I would have to say with my dogs, I have not found that above statement to be true...... in the game of fetch, I see the human just as the ball launcher. The true reward is in the run, and then getting the ball in their mouth. They don't bring it back to 'interact'. They bring it back only so they can have it thrown again......................All the fun and reward is away from us.

Using a tug toy is truly interactive. I pull hard, I pull soft, I make them let go, I let them grab, I swing them around, they pull me along. All of tugging involves ME. 

Most of the best dog trainers I know, that have truly MOTIVATED dogs (not just obedient, I mean motivated and trained) have a tug toy as a major component of the training. And a tug toy you can throw add the component of a reward at distance AND tugging...


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