# Find wall. Bang head. Repeat.



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

AAAAAAAARRGGHH!!





















Just now, Grimm and I were walking along a pathway, and we got CHARGED by an off-lead Lab mix! Grimm lost his head in the exact instant the dog raced RIGHT up to him. Grimm suddenly raced off in play! I fell as the lead yanked me to the ground when he raced off. When I got up and looked, there was Grimm, calmly, happily waving his tail, sniffing the other dog, letting the dog sniff him. 

Then, an off-lead mini-poodle blasts right up to him, and Grimm chases HER to say Hi! I was not near him. I called, and for once, he didn't come. He was busy sniffing calmly with the big Lab mix again. Then the owner of the Lab mix that charged us arrived, and calmly picked up Grimm's leash. Grimm calmly, happily looked up at the tall stranger holding his lead. I came over and nabbed Grimm. The Lab mix was trying to jump playfully on us as I lead Grimm away.

I hate getting charged by offlead dogs! Grimm's brain shuts off in the instant we get rushed. I can usually walk him by another dog if we don't get charged!





















It's right in the moment we get rushed by the other dogs that his brain switches suddenly into Play Mode!


----------



## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Sorry Patti!! 
I hate unleashed dogs too turns Brady into Protect mom mode and it scares me.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Dawn, maybe I should be grateful that he doesn't go into protective mode at all. In fact, he's never aggressive, just responds instantly with insane playfulness. It just happens out of the blue, and he loses his head in that instant.









Guess I should be glad that he is







and not







.


----------



## sgtmom52 (Aug 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: BrightelfI fell as the lead yanked me to the ground when he raced off.


I hope you are not injured! I know first hand how an excited dog can take you off your feet if you are not prepared. My Chance did the same thing to me last week ~ fortunately the only thing hurt was my pride (DH witnessed me going down) and a nice bruise on my leg where I landed on a rock.


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I hope you are not hurt, Patti.


----------



## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

I have a nice big bruise on my upper outter thigh wow its ugly, Neek decided to go for the hose nozzle







and I happened to get in the way. Oh yea, Ive gone doown before, its like you dont know what hit you and next thing you know youre staring at the dirt!! Did Grimm have a prong collar on? I find the only way I can walk and feel like Im not going to go down if he decides to take off like a rocket is the prong. 
Sashi used to go into protect mom thing, too wowza 
it was NOT friendly, he didnt like other dogs anyways.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I'm okay, and nope, he isn't protective at all. Each encounter is a party to him. We do okay walking by another dog when there is distance-- it is when they CHARGE right into our space at high speed, that he loses it and rushes off to play. It's never angry, just instant reaction to play/greet as we get charged.


----------



## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

That could change too Patti as he matures hopefully not 
Brady never had a Problem hence why he got CGC
but its when its the aggressive ones that charge changed him.
When he is with a bunch of his own he could care less about other dogs

I am glad you are ok next time Drop the leash so you don't fall and hurt yourself OK


----------



## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I'm glad you're okay too. Maybe Grimm needs a playdate? You know where it's prearranged that he go at certain times to play with dogs like the big shaggy girl you met yesterday. 

Mercy, we don't have that happen around here. Almost everyone in my neighborhood keeps their dogs either behind a fence or on a run. Now the grand pyrenees that can open his gate, he scares me! Luckily, he's a big happy boy like Grimm who just wants to play - lol he's an older dog I think he has the hots for Morgan.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Jenn, no reason Morgan might not enjoy a date with an older gent!

Unfortunately, the Lab and poodle were visiting and don't live there. The big shaggy female from the other day is too wired/hysterical, cannot control herself, freaks out if Grimm grins and playbows at her. He would LOVE a playdate if we can find an appropriate dog or two when we get back to MA.!

Dawn, I think, I cannot be sure, but I think Grimm will not change into being protective. He thinks everyone loves him. Even when the big stranger picked up his lead, he just wagged and smiled calmly at him. Grimm is INTENSE and playful, but no aggression.

What gets me is that we have worked hard to be able to walk by other dogs at some distance, and done pretty well so far. Then, offlead dogs charge us-- and in a split second, he switches into play-right-now mode! That's when he just snaps and rushes off to play. It's always right as the other dog charges right into us. I am thrilled that he conducts himself appropriately after his first overenthusiastic greeting, but, wish we could withstand being charged and rushed by those offlead dogs without him suddenly switching into brain-free play mode. We have here a habit that needs to be changed. I am unable to work on it with him (due to disabilities). We may have a send away trainer work with him this summer-- not sure. Hopefully, though.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

hmm. Okay.. I keep putting this in the "aggression" section, even though it isn't. But it is frustrating!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am hearing your frustration. 

It is infuriating that others do not control their dogs, but the fact remains.

I think that you need to work with Grimm and be more hypervigilent, i.e. see the loose dog before your dog does and prepare for it. Put your dog in a sit stay, use treats if it will work and have him look at you. 

I personally think setting up play dates will increase the unwanted behavior. What I think would be better if your dog gets to the point that he ingores other dog. That is a tall order when a loose dog runs up. 

I do not think you can continue to allow your dog to get the pleasure of getting up close and personal with other dogs. As much as I hate them, a prong collar may degrease his desire to jerk the lead out of your hand, or a head collar may make that impossible. The thing is not to get dependent, but to train him to sit next to you and focus on you while the loose dog's owner's collect their dog, if that happens at all. Hopefully a prong or a head collar will be a temporary measure. Once the dog is reliably sitting and not jerking you around, you can try the flat collar again. 

Letting him have what he wants is reinforcing the bad behavior. 

First be prepared with the command you will use with the dog, sit stay is much better than down stay, as I think the down makes your dog too vulnerable. 

Second, be aware of the surroundings and see the loose dog and set your dog up first.

Third keep your dog's attention with treats and tone of voice. 

Lastly praise Good behavior around other dogs, praise when he ignores other dogs.

My little old mother manages gigundo Cujo, but certainly not with brute strength. There would be no contest. 

This is really not funny at all, if your dog can pull out of your grasp when he is happy and wants to play, he can pull out when he is frightened by something and it only takes a spit second to get smooshed by a passing motorist.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Wish it were possible. For me, trying to work in a situation where we are charged by a dog would be unsafe. I can never see the loose dog before it's upon us. (I have about 10% eyesight/tunnel vision, literally) I'm very unstable on my feet. Hands don't close. 

I'm THRILLED that I have been able to use these principles to get that sit/focus when we see other LEASHED dogs.







We can now stroll right by other dogs if they are not too close to us. It's taken months, but we did it! I use a tuggy, or food, and lead corrections. (yes for now, it has to be a flat collar-- my prong corrections only ramped him up) 

But in highly charged situations where it would be unsafe for me to work with him, a trainer will handle stopping the old habit & building in a new one. Then, once the new habits are established, weeks of follow-up training means the trainer at first double-leashes Grimm while I handle him so the trainer can be my back-up if needed, then I am on my own handling Grimm under his guidance for several scenarios both in unfamiliar areas and back in our environment/neighborhood, to proof us. The trainer is very strict, but works with a loose lead, and will correct every mistake I make. These extensive private follow-ups are what will make it all worth it.


----------



## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Glad you're not hurt Patti! I think things will improve a lot when Grimm can have regular play dates. I know that if Rafi goes a couple of days without playing with another dog he goes nuts when he sees one and starts jumping up and down in the air and screaming. He and Grimm have similar personalities but, unfortunately for you, Grimm is MUCH bigger. 

Hang in there...literally!


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

have you tried a head collar. It is harder for the dog to jerk you with their head than with their neck. 

I am not surprised the prong did not work, but it was a thought. 

It sounds like you have a plan and are working good to get him over this. 

Have you considered a hands-free leash? 

My major concern is that your dog will see a loose dog at the wrong moment and get seriously injured.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

No Sue, the prong was a GOOD idea-- really-- for lots of people it totally does the trick! Just with my wimpy hands, it became nagging.







The Halti was easy to acclimate him to, as in Germany he needs a comfy nylon muzzle for the railway here (it's the law for dogs over 40 lbs), but he bulled right through the Halti. Hands-free leash helped me do a face-plant. (unsteady on my feet) Your concern is the same concern I have. I have to break this habit for his safety as well as mine.

The work we've done on passing leashed dogs has been good progress. The send-away with extensive follow-up is what will help establish a better habit in this situation. Best is that he spends weeks making Grimm and I a team in set-up scenarios like this.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would design a leash mechanism that absorbed the shock of the lunge and provided the added power needed to hold the dog, but the weight of the **** thing (battery large enough to supply the power needed) would probably make in unpractical. 

I think the springer bicycle device is supposed to absorb the shock from lunging so that cyclists do not land on the pavement if the dog sees a cat. 

I am at a loss. Setting the dog up countless times is excellent so long as he never gets rewarded for breaking away. 

Do you wear him out before the walk by throwing the ball eight bazzillion times. (Tee ball automatic pitcher?) Or by putting him on a tread mill? Maybe starting with an already tired dog would make him less likely to rush as fast and pull as hard to get to the other dog?


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I wonder if something like this would help? The Wacky Walker:
http://www.kvvet.com/KVVet/productr.asp?...124F8FD94849274

At the very least, it's interesting looking.


----------



## Dee Phillips (Nov 29, 2008)

That is a dog fight waiting to happen,maybe use a harness as you may need to remove your dog fast , if the other dog is not looking to play,as many arent. I would worry that your dog see's a charging
dog, as a dog who wants to play. That's a first for me with a gsd.


----------



## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

Princess, he sees them as playful because they all HAVE been.








He reads canine bodylanguage really well, thank goodness. We have seen ONE truly dog-aggressive dog, on leash, and Grimm pretended it wasn't there. ("I don't see you, you're not there..")

Jean. wow.. interesting product for sure! Not sure how I'd correct with that. But it's cool-looking! Might be good for a dog with spinal injuries maybe, too.

Sue, you're right, he can't be allowed to win-- ever. Probably that's why the trainer keeps him 2 - 3 weeks. I don't like how long the stay is, nor how strict the trainer is, but he keeps the lead loose, and the no-nonsense approach is needed. I can respect that. I think you're right, just sequentially making it so he never wins is the key. I hate send-away for too many reasons. I have several disabled friends who have used good send-aways though, but the best is only when the trainer does the extensive one-on-one follow-ups so I am involved in the process and made into a team with Grimm after the pattern has been set. And, he can correct my mistakes consistantly over a period of weeks.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Patti I like the looks of what Jean posted, but I would use that as the back up, with normal walking/corrections done on leather leash. Have the leather in one had and the Wacky Walker in the other hand. 

I like Sue's idea also with the spring from a like attachment to absorb the shock.

Either method I would use as the backup and keep his normal lead.

A few things I have discovered with my dogs recently. A few tricks for strong dogs.
Accross the Chest method: Cheyenne likes to be a puller, she knows the stop and wait game. But if I hold her leash short (8-10 inches from the collar) and then loop the rest of the leash in front of her accross her chest and use two hands left on the short and right on the leash accross her chest. I can play with the tension on the chest loop without affecting the collar.

Around the chest method: I connect to her martingale collar, then loop the leash around her chest (right behind the front legs) and up through the chain loop on the martingal. So when the dog pulls you have tightening on the collar and the chest loop. This is more effective than looping across the chest. It would problably help absorb some the initial shock. I will try to get some pictures tommorow and post them.

Also, With Raya the other day I moved her martingale collars up where a pinch collar would ride and low and behold she was way more responsive to leash pressure.

Val


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I have done that with Rush, though he is not much of a puller, putting the rest of the lead around the neck so I am holding a loop around the head/neck and the lead to the martingale. 

Why do I do this? It gets rid of the extra length of lead, the dog walks close to my side, I can do it all with one hand, it looks like the dog is working, and the dog seems to respond even better with the extra around his neck, maybe because I am holding the leash shorter, I don't know. 

I like that idea.


----------

