# Teach puppy to accept strangers' handling



## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

My pup is 3.5months, starting recently she no longer likes strangers to pet her anymore. However, I want my dog to pass Canine good citizen once she grows up and the second item is: sit politely for petting. She would go sniff/chase/lay beside strangers no problems, but if they bend down to pet her especially suddenly, she would run back a bit and turn around to bark at them. She has no problems accept handling all over her body by me (I practiced lots of "grab-treat-release" to desensitize her), and she is fine if my friends suddenly move to pet her as well. She does not like vet handling her either, but she would give in after I hold her body. She would take treats from strangers, and sometimes allow them to pet her spine but not her head. 

My trainer and I have a difference in opinions here. My trainer thinks I should let my pup grow and let her decide whether she wants to be petted or not. But I think I need to do something before she gets worse and I am thinking of teaching my pup to accept petting by letting strangers hand-feed her while they pet her, which my trainer thinks is counter-productive to engagement later on. I can see my trainer's point of view, but I don't like the idea of doing nothing and just hope she will turn out fine. I like aloofness in GSDs, but passing Canine Good Citizen is an important goal for me and also I am worried about her scaring little kids who pet dogs without permission once she gets older and bigger and becomes even more beautiful. Furthermore, I can't tell if this is fear/aggression/aloofness based, and I am worried about it turning into fear-biting when people try to pet without permission once she gets older.

What are your experiences with your aloof GSDs? How do they respond when strangers suddenly bend down to pet them at the bus stop without owners' permission? How did you teach your puppy to accept strangers' petting without hurting engagement and making it lose GSD aloofness?

Thanks.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

can't help you too much as I am dealing with the same thing myself. My brave pup has decided that strangers need to be considered carefully before letting them touch her. Most of us humans move in way too quickly. People are already moving in to touch her as they ask "may I pat her". They don't even realize it but my pup does. 

My gal is 16 months old now and I tell people that she is not a "petting dog". I ask people to ignore her. It gives her time to commiserate. I will be spending more time simply walking her around people and making sure she has time to watch them. Hopefully she'll learn the body language of friendly strangers. 


My boy, on the other hand, has long hair and an adorable face. I understand why some people never let strangers pat their dogs but I just knew that we would constantly be asked "can I pat your dog". He learned from very early that most strangers are safe, thankfully. Some people just can help but reach out and touch his fur simply passing by in a crowd. Starting around 4 months old we walked in a tourist area nearly every week. He figured out that we would stop and chat with people, he might as well lay down and wait. He learned that we would never let a stranger hurt him. He would watch us give treats to people to give to him. I'm not sure if that is what helped him learn to be patient with strangers or if it is simply his temperament. It is probably both.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I don't let strange adults pet my dog. He is not a fan of people eyeing him, nor a fan of people leaning over him. Kids on the other hand are a different story. 
Gsds were bred with a bit of human aggression and sometimes it's difficult to pass the cgc for them. Not all are like this. 
Just remember that.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

Aloofness is completely correct for a GSD. All the dog has to do to pass the CGC is remain neutral to strangers.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Treats. Lots and lots of food. Some puppies go through stages where their suspicion is kicking in. Start there and evaluate how the puppy is responding. You may have one in a stage or you may have a more suspicious dog that will always be aloof.

As far as the CGC, while they do just have to remain aloof, they also have to accept a stranger doing things like brushing them and they have to be left alone with them. So make sure you have your obedience and make sure you, at a point down the road, practice these things.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It's tough to make a GSD act like a Golden Retriever. I decided to forgo the CGC and just train her to behave in public and remain stranger-neutral to dogs and people.
Example: on the trails yesterday: a guy with a female lab, pulling on leash and snarling at Deja who sat next to me and the bike. Guy said,"She just want to play. Can she say Hi?" I told him flat "NO". Deja kept her sit and happily ran off after my OK! Proud of her. 
OP, sorry to steal your thread, back to you


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Sometimes it's a phase that will pass.Sometimes it never does,in which case if you continue to force him he may eventually bite in order to keep strangers away from him.Backing away and avoiding is preferable to him feeling he must forcibly protect himself.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

" I wouldn't touch him son. He don't take to pettin." John Wayne

Heres what it looks like to a dog- a random stranger coming at them, hunched over like a predator, clawing at their head. Or even worse, darting squeaking children. I don't let strangers touch my dog.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I don't push Enya to allow people to pet her. When people asked to pet her I'd tell them if she wants you to, it's up to her. I'd tell them to put out their hand and I'd tell her to 'say hello'. If she didn't move toward them I'd tell them 'sorry, she doesn't want to today, maybe next time'. And I'd talk or walk on. At about four months or so she suddenly decided she wanted people to pet her. Now I have to watch that she waits for me to tell her to say hello. 


You never want to force them to do something that is fearful. By not having to be petted she saw people were not something to be fearful of, so she decided to try it out and liked it. If forced into something fearful it just escalates the fear. Odds are as she matures she'll go back to being aloof and ignoring them, which is fine. But since she has no fear of them she'll be able to handle someone touching her, a vet or a tester for CGC better than a dog that was forced to be handled by strangers she was fearful of.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wouldn't have people pet her. I would have people toss treats on the ground below her nose. this is how I allow children to interact with my dogs. 

Adults...meh...they do too many stupid things so I just tell them no.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Jax08 said:


> I wouldn't have people pet her. I would have people toss treats on the ground below her nose. this is how I allow children to interact with my dogs.
> 
> Adults...meh...they do too many stupid things so I just tell them no.


For children treat tossing is good. If they don't hold the treat right they could get nipped. If I let a stranger give my dog a treat I make sure my dog realizes that I gave the treat to the stranger. Sometimes I allow them to give cookies, but that is rare. I would have to know something about that person, like they run the pet store or we chat with them frequently in the neighborhood. But by then we have usually established that they are friendly folks. Or at least I hope that is how our dogs see it. 

(an aside) I do remember, though, when my daughter was less than a year old, we had a GSD rescue. My daughter's dad let her share a piece of sliced bologna with the dog. The dog took it from her hand with incredible care. Would I have let her do that? No. It was more, "come see how she is feeding the dog" and I came to watch it already playing out. It was impressive.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

The best way to "fail" a dog is by "forcing" that square peg into that round hole. *"You have to work with the dog in front of you and accept them for who they are."* If you are not willing to change your expectations of this "puppy" then call it a loss rehome him and try again.

But ... if of your willing to change "your" approach ... then who knows given time to adjust he may just pass the "CGC???" Right now he does not trust you becasue you keep putting him into "Comfortable" situations. You've already seen that "treats" don't seem to work?? What you have not seen is that a dog can take a treat and still bite the crap out of someone??

How that could happen is the dog focuses on the treat and not the person consumes the treat ... looks up and "Holy Crap" where that guy come from and wham" ... dog bit number one on the record. 

A much better approach is to build your dog's "confidence" in "you" "if mommy says it's OK ... then it's OK. Right now he's not so sure??? Your trainer has it mostly right cept I'd not wait till my dog was full grown before "starting" a better process. As it happens I did ... but that's not my point. 

Exposure to people not necessarily "Socialization" with people. Once your dog better understands that you have there back ... they will be much more willing to let people into there "Space." 

It's a process and it can be found here. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

See "leerburgh" "Who Pets" and "Five Golden Rules" pretty much the same thing. 

And in retrospect I'd have also added "Sit on The Dog" you find a quiet spot where you can just "Sit" and have him "observe" no need to interact, just watch. That and Place can be found here.:

Fearful, Anxious or Flat Crazy "The Place CommanD - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

Welcome aboard and ask questions.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Rocky my "OS WL GSD" won't accept treats from strangers my "Band Dawg, APBT/Boxers and Boxer" liked people anyway and just did not care. The "strangers were the treat! So I saw no value to them?? And I was not willing to risk getting anyone close to "Rocky's" face so certainly not going to try that with him! But it was "Michael Ellis" that pointed out the potential danger of treats with the wrong dog, made sense to me. I did (finally) try the treat thing once with him ... but that was only after a long while of "ignoring people" and only once a "stranger" had shown me my dog had changed for the better. I tried a treat a time or two with "Rocky" and he would take it politely and drop it. Rocky did not care one way or another. 

But that I tried only after I was "coerced" into "stepping aside" and allowing "that stranger" to pet him. He asked what I was doing and why?? And Rocky was behind me ... I always blocked people "politely" from having access to him, which I did again.

I explained (no one had asked before) that he had greeted company in the home with (from place) with a "Cold Hard Stare and a Low Growl????" I kept company out of his face once I saw that??? And just kept up that process, adding a muzzle for a time but dropped it after a bit as it was no longer needed.

He then asked well did it work??? Uh ... no one had asked me that before?? I turned around and looked at "Rocky" and he an "expression of ... this same bit again???" Been here done this no big deal" I stepped aside and and said OK and allowed "that guy" to pet him" and ..."Nothing Happened!"

But it might work with some dogs, but "this" is why I just say no. Works out fine for "me."


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Guys...this is a BABY. Most likely just going thru a stage. Teach the puppy that there is nothing to fear. No need to immerse them in people. No need to let people pet her. Just let people toss treats to the puppy so it's a game. Toss Toss Toss, Good Girl and off you go.

If there is still an adverse reaction, then go find a trainer to help you. You may have a fearful dog or you may have a civil dog. But either way, obedience will be super important.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

The thing about raising a dog is you always have to be willing to reevaluate your goals.

I'd forget about goals of passing the CGC and just focus on raising a sound dog with good obedience so she can safely navigate the world. The CGC is just a piece of paper and some letters anyways. It isn't a test that had been designed with the traits of shepherds in mind. My guy failed his CGC but passed his BH (temperament test in IPO). If you want a dog that enjoys petting then a shepherd probably isn't the right dog for you.

Forcing you pup to interact with strangers is going to set her up for failure down the road. 

My boy wants nothing to do with being petted by strangers for the most part. He shies away. Its not a fearful shying. Its a whoa! I dont know you! Personal space please! Type of shying. If he were corned and forced he probably would bite - much the same way I'd hit someone if they were all hands with me.

Remember that your pup is a thinking feeling being. Not a robot you can program through training to just do what YOU want.


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## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

Ok so it seems most people vote for aloofness, I will go with that for now

Something to clarify...I don't think having strangers hand-feeding her while they slowly pet her starting from the spine is "forcing" her into a stressful situation. She can choose to go to the stranger and she can choose to go away anytime, the stranger will just be there sitting on the floor extending his/her arms. I think this is called counter-conditioning, I find it from various sources for dealing with a shyer dog. The concept of that is by linking a naturally unpleasant thing with a very pleasant thing under threshold, we can change the dog's altitude towards the originally unpleasant thing to neutral or even pleasant. And I really don't see there is any harm in that unless A) the stranger starts scaring the puppies (which I can prevent by asking neighbours who I know are friendly and patient and by starting slow, decreasing distance and increasing magnitude gradually) B) puppy becomes overly corrected (overly socialized) and approaches everyone to be petted for food in the future, which is actually my main concern with this method, as I only want to do it to the point that the dog is okay with it but does not seek it out and I think it will be hard. 

"Remember that your pup is a thinking feeling being. Not a robot you can program through training to just do what YOU want." Even humans' personalities are somewhat shaped by experiences, enough positive experiences with petting will sure "program" her into associating positive feelings to petting thus programming her personality to like petting I believe. She has high food drive so that will be my hacking algorithm to her head But thanks for sharing your experiences, my pup is from the "watered-down" lines with little drive so IPO is kinda out of the question for us I live in a very populous urban area where unfortunately young people just pet dogs passing by, so I hope either this goes away as a stage like most of you have suggested or I will have to gradually install a program that makes her more tolerant of people in her system. 

Anyway, to be serious. It seems most of you think she will be fine when left alone. I think I will do that for now and observe what will happen. In the mean time, do you mind suggest some warning signs of fear-aggression response towards people petting that I need to watch for? One thing I am really worried about is that this is not based on aloofness/suspicion but rather based on fear of being petted by strangers as I did not let strangers pet her before so she was not really socialized to strangers' petting. So I want to know the signs fear-aggression so that I can distinguish between fear and suspicion.

Thanks! And to all good day.


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## lonecat (Nov 2, 2016)

To note from the previous reply from the second-to-last sentence: "I did not let strangers pet her" is inaccurate, instead what I meant was that I did not actively seek out to socialize her with random strangers' petting when she was 8 weeks old and accepting of everyone. Sorry about the confusion.


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## zetti (May 11, 2014)

voodoolamb said:


> The thing about raising a dog is you always have to be willing to reevaluate your goals.
> 
> I'd forget about goals of passing the CGC and just focus on raising a sound dog with good obedience so she can safely navigate the world. The CGC is just a piece of paper and some letters anyways. It isn't a test that had been designed with the traits of shepherds in mind. My guy failed his CGC but passed his BH (temperament test in IPO). If you want a dog that enjoys petting then a shepherd probably isn't the right dog for you.
> 
> ...


I used to have a male who was extremely high in defense drive. Like off the charts. I only found one helper with the skills to even be able to shift him into prey.

He was a very sweet dog, just civil. He liked women, mistrusted men and teenaged boys. Back when I was training pet dogs, he was my demo dog and went to all of my classes, so he was excellent with other dogs.

A visiting trainer from Europe came to our club and evaluated him and said my dog was all defense and he was the kind of dog that if he wants you and he gets you, he's going to kill you. When he bit the sleeve, he wasn't playing sleeve tug.

The point of this story is that he earned his CGC with flying colors. Not because he was sound, but because he was extremely well trained. I could drop that dog into a down and leave for 30 minutes. He'd still be there, staring after where I left.


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