# Struggling to keep it together



## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

My baby boy (he will be 11 months old in four days) has started to get aggressive. He is neutered. 

He is perfectly fine with dogs he has known since early puppyhood. He is good with the dogs at daycare and at the park. However if the dog is walking by him on leash he loses his mind... Lunging and barking. 

Last night we tried to introduce him to a puppy and he tried to bite her! Then today we tried to introduce him to an old dog and we had to pull them apart they were going at each other. 

He also barks and lunges at joggers. 

We are working with our trainer and using the book Click to Calm, but is this just the teenager phase or something worse? What more can we do? 

Any advice please. I'm just about in tears over this behavior lately. 


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Is there a necessity that your dog interact with other dogs? 

You want to be able to control your dog, but not all dogs are going to interact well with others.

I'd spend more time putting him in situations where he can succeed and where he will meet dog friendly people. Build his, and your, confidence.


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## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

It's not necessary that he interacts with other dogs. Just wish he would be able too. 

It is necessary that he interacts with people because he is in the process of becoming a therapy dog. I just don't want his fear of dogs to transfer to people. 


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

There is a similar post today on this subject:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...5-pretty-new-here-have-my-first-question.html


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## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

Gretchen said:


> There is a similar post today on this subject:
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...5-pretty-new-here-have-my-first-question.html



Thank you for this!


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## Harry and Lola (Oct 26, 2013)

He is at the age where they do change, often around this age people find their normally easy going GSD starts to develop likes and dislikes when it comes to other dogs.

He has been through a good amount of socialisation and now it is important you train him to ignore other dogs, he doesn't have to meet and greet other dogs, it is not important any more. With being on the lead and becoming reactive, this is quite common and engaging him in focus training where he learns and is rewarded to focus on you when passing other dogs will help you both.

My experience - around this age they are only interested in being with you and don't want to engage with most other dogs, so putting him in this position may cause him to react aggressively. Build up his confidence by training him to ignore.

With the joggers, again apply the same training where he is encouraged to focus on you and then rewarded. He is at a difficult age, and it will take consistent training and trust from you to get him through this stage.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think we need more information. 

You mention dog parks and day care. How long has he been going to the dog park, and how often. How often does he go to day care? Have you discussed the behavior with people at the daycare to see if he is having issues there?

You mention a trainer. Is this one-on-one training or is it training classes? Has your dog been to classes? If so, how old was he and for how many weeks (I am guessing dog class once a week for a number of weeks)? 

He is maturing now. The barking and lunging on leash is _usually _a sign of an insecure/fearful dog reacting to something to make it go away. I don't like it that it tried to bite the puppy though. 

Your dog has two choices when it is confronted with something that makes it uneasy: it can fight with whatever it is and conquer, or it can run away from whatever it is. On leash, the dog knows it cannot run away. Lots of dogs that are tethered to something act like they are guarding it. Lots of bites happen when someone gets too close to a tethered dog. The dog cannot run away, so it needs to make whatever it is afraid of go away. Barking and lunging causes you to increase the distance between the dog and the object of his fear. And therefore, it is something that works, and he will do that again and again. 

Next question: What do you do when he acts like this? 

Without those answers, I would say skip the dog park and the day care. Read up on NILIF, and implement it. Take your dog to training classes, and if it makes you more comfortable, put a muzzle on him. It's not necessarily forever, but you do not want him connecting. Also, you need to either work below his threshold and build up his tolerance by decreasing the distance between objects that he reacts to slowly, or you need to give him a quick, meaningful correction the moment he starts his routine and move on very positively. Don't give him the change to get entrenched in the behavior. 

The problem with the correction, is that it masks the symptom, and not necessarily deals with the problem. Sometimes symptoms do get a life of their own though, and snapping him out of his behavior, and then moving on quickly and confidently, very positive, can allow you to work within proximity of whatever he is reacting to, and without any negative problems from those joggers or dogs, he will become less concerned.

I think that the problem with day care and dog parks is that we condition dogs to interact with other dogs, when for some of our dogs it would be best if they interact with us, and ignore other dogs. The interaction may look like aggression and be play, it can be punished/discouraged, while other behaviors may be encouraged. The interaction may look like a good response and it could be subtle bullying or pack order stuff. And God knows what happens in day care when we are not there? 

Dog classes are better in some ways, because our dogs learn to function, interacting with us, while other people interact with their dogs. They can be in the same proximity, but there is no racing about, play fighting, humping going on. They are learning to view other dogs as something of interest that is no concern, because they are working on getting that hunk of steak or hot dog out of their owners hand. And eventually it will be for just a bit of praise that the dog will find you much more entertaining than other dogs. 

Dog parks and doggy daycare provides a situation where dogs are highly stimulated by other dogs, and lets face it, humans are pretty darned BORING. 

SIT FIDO
Good Boy!

STAY! 
Good Boy!

STAND! 
Good Boy!

SIT! 
Good Boy!

BOOOORINGGGG!!!!!

When the dog can be running, chasing, body slamming, jumping up, locking teeth on each other's necks. Yayyy!!!!

How do you compete with that? 

There are ways. But the best thing is to forgo dog parks and day cares, and take the part of the dog's best outlet for mental and physical stimulation. Get out there and play fetch, play tug, catch frisbees, teach him to run next to your bicycle (not while he is reacting to other dogs), be more exciting than anything out there, and then pull the training into line with the wonderful games. Use treats, use praise, use a highly stimulating happy voice, use a tug or toy for when he does really good. 

This builds a bond between you and the dog, which a dog park or doggy daycare CANNOT do. Working in class training, helps to solidify that bond with the distractions of other people and dogs around. 

I think I am rambling.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

_*"There are ways. But the best thing is to forgo dog parks and day cares, and take the part of the dog's best outlet for mental and physical stimulation. Get out there and play fetch, play tug, catch frisbees, teach him to run next to your bicycle (not while he is reacting to other dogs), be more exciting than anything out there, and then pull the training into line with the wonderful games. Use treats, use praise, use a highly stimulating happy voice, use a tug or toy for when he does really good. 

This builds a bond between you and the dog, which a dog park or doggy daycare CANNOT do. Working in class training, helps to solidify that bond with the distractions of other people and dogs around "


*_I really like that mentality.....

SuperG


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## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

selzer said:


> I think we need more information.
> 
> You mention dog parks and day care. How long has he been going to the dog park, and how often. How often does he go to day care? Have you discussed the behavior with people at the daycare to see if he is having issues there?
> 
> ...



Wow what great insight!! 

CJ goes to the park maybe once a week. Daycare is only twice a week. I also talk to the daycare people and they say he was fine and nothing has happen in the area of aggression. 

CJ has been in group classes since he was ten weeks old. He has complete his CGC and CGCA. 

Typically we try to caught CJ before he reacts but it's hard to do that all the time. When he does react, I get him to look at me which still needs work and I use the command quiet. It's a slow process and I'm not working it as much as I should...

To me the trying to bite the puppy was completely inexcusable but that being said I think he did it because he doesn't like the idea of me playing with an "unknown" dog. My fear there is I don't want it to translate to people. He does amazing with kids and people but I want to be able to take him out on walks with lots going on outside. Especially because we are moving to southern California and it will be next to impossible to go outside without something going on there 



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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

SuperG said:


> _*"There are ways. But the best thing is to forgo dog parks and day cares, and take the part of the dog's best outlet for mental and physical stimulation. Get out there and play fetch, play tug, catch frisbees, teach him to run next to your bicycle (not while he is reacting to other dogs), be more exciting than anything out there, and then pull the training into line with the wonderful games. Use treats, use praise, use a highly stimulating happy voice, use a tug or toy for when he does really good.
> 
> This builds a bond between you and the dog, which a dog park or doggy daycare CANNOT do. Working in class training, helps to solidify that bond with the distractions of other people and dogs around "
> 
> ...


Going with this,Gonna try and be helpful and post this link:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.htmlLess helpful would be "my" opinion on "Click to calm" dog reactive and a "clicker"????


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## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

Chip18 said:


> Going with this,Gonna try and be helpful and post this link:
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-behavior/431289-new-dog-very-challenging.htmlLess helpful would be "my" opinion on "Click to calm" dog reactive and a "clicker"????



Thank you!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Good that he has been in classes all along. Keep going. Working around controlled dogs in a controlled setting will help him to ignore other dogs in the long run. Do not allow any interaction between dogs during classes.

He can be in a late fear stage, and sometimes the best thing is to step back a few paces, for a few weeks, and work on stuff he knows and does well. Then bring it on again. 

I am not sure if this is reactive, or leash reactive, or if it is just a stupid phase that the dog will work through. Dog aggression does not equal people aggression though. They are totally different things. 

Reactivity usually a fear response, and a dog can be reactive to stuff that moves fast and illicits a startle response, be it a dog, child, whatever. These dogs you have to be very careful around and either muzzle in public, or be hypervigilent to ensure that no one ever comes out of nowhere and decends upon your dog. 

GSDs can have herding tendencies, and prey drive. That which runs must be chased. With a dog with good nerve, you should be able to train them to listen to your commands. Then whatever the prey drive, when the dog starts to chase, or before the dog begins to chase, a single reminder can keep the dog from doing so. 

I am not real familiar with problems with herding. I know GSDs might herd other children away from your kids or herd them together by moving their body in between, blocking, and possibly nipping. It doesn't sound like this is your problem. Again, do not encourage this behavior/discourage it, and you should be able to train a dog to not treat children like errant lambs. 

I think with a reactive dog, you need to ACT before the dog reacts. Instead of waiting for the dog to AR AR AR AR AR!!!! When you see a jogger, tell your dog to SIT, then tell him to STAY, Teach him to LOOK up at your face. give him a treat. Start making treats something the dog truly has to work for. 

If the dog will eat a treat, they are not so far gone in a behavior that it is terrible. A dog terribly afraid or aggressive is not going to be concerned about steak. They will not eat it. The dog is totally over their threshhold. But if you see the problem before your dog has reached its threshold, then, LOOK! Good boy, treat. And the dog is moving away now -- not as threatening. Some people get to the point where the dog sees another dog, and looks to his owner for a treat -- Awesome. You have now trained the dog that seeing another dog doesn't mean you need to bark and lunge, it means that there is a treat coming if you look at mom. 

It is a lot easier to tell a dog what to do (something you have trained and he is good on where there are not distractions, like SIT), and to praise him for doing so; than to punish a dog for a behavior you do not like and hope he connects the punishment with his behavior and not with the object that is bothering him.


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## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

I cannot say enough how helpful you all are. I was feeling like I couldn't fix it, but now I'm more confident. I think the main problem now is wanting instant gratification. 

I'm definitely glad that dog aggression doesn't equal people aggression. 

So can he just grow up already? ;-) lol


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Puppies are tough. 

With patience and consistence and perseverance, in another 9 years, yours will be the best dog in the neighborhood. 

Thank God the learning curve is exponential and not linear!


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

You are kidding yourself if you think your pup will grow out of it. 

Click and treat sounds good in theory but honestly in those situations the dog doesn't want a treat. There are competing motivators and the dog wants that more than a treat. 

In my opinion I'd teach the dog to sit. If he breaks his sit you punish him (prong). Start in the house. He doesn't get to break his sit without your permission. Then when you see another dog tell him to sit. If he breaks the sit punish him. Dog will learn he needs to sit. Dog will sit while another dog walks by. Dog realizes hey this isn't a big deal. That dog is no threat. Dog learns joggers aren't a big deal. Dog learns if I break my sit and lunge it's gonna hurt. Just my opinion. Or you can pull out a treat and beg the dog to listen..... 

Btw if your dog isn't confident enough and is reactive to strange dogs and joggers then I don't think that's a good temperament for a therapy dog. I wouldn't try to fit a square peg into a round hole.


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## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> You are kidding yourself if you think your pup will grow out of it.
> 
> Click and treat sounds good in theory but honestly in those situations the dog doesn't want a treat. There are competing motivators and the dog wants that more than a treat.
> 
> ...



Thank you. However in my opinion I don't think punishment is the answer to any problem. My parents never had to hit me because I learned to listen. I don't think a dog should be pronged. But thank you for the advice! We all have different ways of doing things. 


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## Athena'sMom (Jan 9, 2014)

Athena just turned 11 months and has started to bark at all dogs on walks. I try to take her to a nature trail where I know a lot of dogs are going to be. I place her in down/stay when I see a dog and in a calm voice say it's okay/friend and when she does not bark I praise like crazy. We did this all saturday and by the end I could walk on and just say it's okay and she just ignored. It is not an easy fix because she still barks but consistency is key. They are testing their boundaries. Just stay calm if you get agitated they will feed off your negativity and view the other dog as more of a threat and react. I try to stay confident and neutral. Take a no big deal attitude towards other dogs. It will take time to totally solve the problem entirely if at all. It is more of a managed thing and keep walking and socializing from a far build up their tolerance for other animals.
I signed Athena up for 4h with my son to get more safe exposure to new situations. Continuous training is a must and a calm, confident attitude. Good luck!


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

When pups get free-for-all play with dogs at daycares and dog parks, sometimes when they're leashed and they see another dog, they turn into wild things, wanting to get right to the dog in view. I know my own dog is like that, and it's been a challenge to teach him manners on leash around dogs in the distance. You do need to have some good OB to help with this.

The biting and pulling off other dogs is something different. Your dog might not be the type to enjoy other dogs. My last darling GSD was like that, and he was also a Therapy Dog. So it's not impossible to realize your dreams with him, if he ends up with the right temperament towards people in general. But you might want to start teaching him to ignore other dogs and limit his access to them. He'll need to ignore them IRL when he's a TD - not just to pass the test, but also encountering other animals while working. We saw cats and birds too, not just dogs, on our visits. Good luck!


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## sehrgutcsg (Feb 7, 2014)

It's not a surprise that "Lisa," asks ALL the important questions before giving out important advice and information. 

Applaud ! 

Sounds to me like a control issue>? Who's the boss here>?

Example: and; I am not a pro: Bella turned 3 1/2 months today. (12/25) She's doing well overall. I started walking her at daybreak and she is barking and very alert. A man smoking and walking in our direction, (barks), no correction. A family with luggage waiting for a cab and a 6 year old boy, barks, (correction). Bella, "that boy is a good boy" and "you need not be concerned."

I have not allowed other dog owner's animals near my dog during this crucial stage of training. I asked for a neighbor to back off, the damage done in three seconds can set you back six months. Treat training going well, Jack Russell, Nelson demonstrating right in the middle and both are receiving treats. She's not ready for children yet. She needs more time. I am in control of every situation, no matter if my wife, child or anybody else's concern's, they are all invalid.

Listen to Selzer. Lisa know's the path you walk on, her approach, and description is so spot on you should pay her !! :wub:


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

Yeah, some dogs just don't like other dogs. He might get better and good for you that you are taking steps to get him trained up. Or you may always have to try to keep him away from dogs, especially dogs he doesn't know well. Not a perfect scenario, but it is workable.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

CJthePuppy said:


> Thank you. However in my opinion I don't think punishment is the answer to any problem. My parents never had to hit me because I learned to listen. I don't think a dog should be pronged. But thank you for the advice! We all have different ways of doing things.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App





> Originally Posted by *boomer11*
> Click and treat sounds good in theory but honestly in those situations the dog doesn't want a treat. There are competing motivators and the dog wants that more than a treat.
> 
> In my opinion I'd teach the dog to sit. If he breaks his sit you punish him (prong). Start in the house. He doesn't get to break his sit without your permission. Then when you see another dog tell him to sit. If he breaks the sit punish him. Dog will learn he needs to sit. Dog will sit while another dog walks by. Dog realizes hey this isn't a big deal. That dog is no threat. Dog learns joggers aren't a big deal. Dog learns if I break my sit and lunge it's gonna hurt. Just my opinion. Or you can pull out a treat and beg the dog to listen.....
> ...


I agree with boomer11(bolded part too). I'd put the dog in a sit when the reactivity begins, if the dog breaks the sit, correction happens...that way the correction is not from reacting but from breaking the sit. It is a good way to redirect the reactivity and put the dog into obedience mode. You aren't hitting your dog, but are communicating that the dog must obey you. LAT and BAT also work great, but you need to be proactive and consistent. And it takes time to train the dog out of the reactivity. When my female Onyx went thru this, a treat was the last thing on her mind. But I didn't correct her for her reactive behavior as it ramped her up more. I did LAT. If I had to do this over, I'd do as Boomer suggested.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I would keep the dog away from face-to-face meetings of new dogs and people (daycare is probably fine as long as they say he's OK there). A dog does not HAVE to be walked and be meeting random dogs and people to be happy. The problem is every time he reacts, he's clearly demonstrating he's over his threshold. "Flooding" (continually exposing the dog to whatever sets him off) is not the answer, especially if you don't have full confidence in the dog or your handling abilities and don't have a way to firmly interrupt and correct the behavior. Give him some space as he matures. Use this time to develop a bond with you so that he learns to trust you and be neutral toward other people and dogs. It could be a confidence thing with you more than a temperament thing with him. I had this same problem with the first GSD I raised at this age. I found that once I had confidence in myself and my ability to control my dog (including appropriately timed corrections and rewards), this was a complete non-issue.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Not really gonna argue with anything being said just a couple of observations. All my males have been Dominant dogs. And mine were all trained to ignore other dogs and none ever came close to the insane crazy Cesar 911 dogs?

My guys were only told to sit or down when crossing the street or stepping "wide" aside were not an option. Sitting or down allows them to focus on the other dog they could/will/can do it. But that was not a "routine" part of conditioning, if given a choice we simply moved on.  

For the most part people seem to view "non dog park' dogs as some sort of ticking time bomb dogacidle manic's waiting for a chance to rip Fido apart???

K9's military dogs and other service dogs don't go to dog parks. Teaching ones dog to ignore other dogs is not some radical new concept??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I agree with keeping moving rather than sitting, at least in the beginning. It is best to just, "Eh! Itsa Dog! in a matter of fact tone, and keep on going. Since you do not want to punish, try to stay below your dog's threshold, and that means, you need to adjust your path BEFORE your dog reacts to a possible issue. 

If you adjust where you are going because your dog reacts, than his bad behavior is rewarded. He wants distance between him and the other dog. If you turn around or back away, even pulling him away, than the dog is getting the distances he wants. Much better to see the dog in the distance and before your dog reacts, to act and turn around or whatever you need to do to keep the dog far enough away so it is below your dog's threshold. If you mess up, and your dog reacts, then, "EH! itsa dog!" and move on, but do not turn around to beat it out of there, just move on in such a fashion that in no way can your dog connect with the other dog.

As you increase the training bond, the bond of trust between you and the dog, then you can slowly decrease the distance where you know the dog's threshold is, and move him slowly out of his comfort zone. At this point too, you may in some situations, use the SIT command, instead of moving on, but only if you are relatively sure the other dog owner will not see a well-behaved dog and come over to make friends. 

The DOWN command is even tougher. It is hard on a dog to down in situations where he is clearly uncomfortable. I wouldn't do this with a reactive dog, until we are well into training, and have seen tons of progress. And then I would be ready to move on in a heartbeat, if the dog seems to be too stressed. Dogs do need to deal with stress, but you don't want to go backwards either. There really is no reason your dog needs to down in the presence of strange dogs. SIT is enough.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

selzer said:


> I agree with keeping moving rather than sitting, at least in the beginning. It is best to just, "Eh! Itsa Dog! in a matter of fact tone, and keep on going. Since you do not want to punish, try to stay below your dog's threshold, and that means, you need to adjust your path BEFORE your dog reacts to a possible issue.
> 
> If you adjust where you are going because your dog reacts, than his bad behavior is rewarded. He wants distance between him and the other dog. If you turn around or back away, even pulling him away, than the dog is getting the distances he wants. Much better to see the dog in the distance and before your dog reacts, to act and turn around or whatever you need to do to keep the dog far enough away so it is below your dog's threshold. If you mess up, and your dog reacts, then, "EH! itsa dog!" and move on, but do not turn around to beat it out of there, just move on in such a fashion that in no way can your dog connect with the other dog.
> 
> ...


WOW thank you!  Exactly this!


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## CJthePuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

Thank you all so much!! We just need to keep doing what we are doing and we will get through this period. 


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