# Breeders or Rescues?



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

People have been adopting more often than buying puppies. I have been hearing more bad stuff about breeders and people appealing more to adopting recently. There is a huge overpopulation of millions homeless dogs dying everyday. I have been putting a lot of thought into breeders (even responsible) and rescues. For a long time always was hoping in the future to get a German shepherd puppy from a real responsible breeder. However, now there is more of a thing of half rescuing German shepherds and the other half wanting a pup from a real responsible breeder and other adopting dogs. I would get a German shepherd from a real responsible breeder and will get some from rescues too. Although if I were to get another dog besides the German shepherd I would always go for adopting. Right now am not ready for another dog, but this breeder and adopting thing has been coming to mind a lot. Even though I like real responsible breeders, for some reason every time I hear somebody say they got their dog from a breeder I wonder why am I feeling a yuck in a gut? Half of the majority is now finding all breeding bad which is biased because there are true real responsible breeders out there solving this homeless dog population thingy. Same goes for rescue organizations, etc. What do you all think about this overpopulation homeless dog and breeder and rescue adopting thing? I am not sure what to think even though I am an animal rights activist. I cannot live without dogs so I can get my 1st German shepherd from a real responsible breeder than go for rescues. Is that a good plan?


----------



## TriadGSD (Feb 19, 2011)

I have one that I got from a byb and i just got a rescue . If you get a puppy you can mold it into the way you want him or.her to be. Rescue you don't know how they were raised and may have issues

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm not sure I want in on this discussion so I'll just say a couple of things and be on my way. I've done both adoption and purchased from a breeder. 

I think this has more to do with your situation than the moral decision. Why are those dogs homeless in the first place? In a lot of cases, their people chose them for the wrong reason and couldn't handle the commitment of a GSD. I don't recommend a rescue for a first time GSD owner. I think the first time owner needs to grow with the dog. 

A rescuer of a GSD needs to know how to deal with any behavioral issues in short order. 100lbs of teeth and muscle with a bad attitude in a certain situation could get bad quickly. Look at all the puppy issues posted on the forum. Now add 100 lbs and large teeth to that situation and it dramatically changes the outcome. 

My heart goes out to every one of the animals that are currently in shelters. We heavily considered adopting this time. The adoption agencies were the issue for us but that is for another discussion. We have specific needs and wants for this Shepherd so we made the decision to get a pup from a reputable breeder. We don't regret that decision. 

Every rescue is going to have issues albeit some only very minor however, you must prepare for the worst. I find it amazing how some dogs just seem to know they have been rescued and show true gratitude. Others, not so much..... 

If people quit buying from non-reputable breeders, they would quit breeding.... I say find a very reputable breeder for your fist Shepherd, then consider adopting another about 2 years from now if you think that is what you need to do.


----------



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Sp00ks said:


> *I think this has more to do with your situation than the moral decision.* Why are those dogs homeless in the first place? In a lot of cases, their people chose them for the wrong reason and couldn't handle the commitment of a GSD. I don't recommend a rescue for a first time GSD owner. I think the first time owner needs to grow with the dog.


I agree with you on the first bit, and was actually coming to say pretty much the same thing, but the second part I disagree a bit. I think you absolutely can have a rescue GSD for your first GSD, but it REALLY needs to be evaluated by a rescue group that is GSD breed specific. Meaning, they are absolute pros at evaluating temperament and getting the right dog in the right home. Just like a good, reputable breeder will help evaluate the right puppy for the situation, a good, reputable rescue will do the same. Moreover, by adopting an adult dog with known temperament, you can even get a dog that already has some obedience and housebreaking under its belt, and you can be past the difficulties of puppy-hood and adolescence. If you're unsure of your handling skills and get a puppy from a breeder, you could possibly BE one of those people that didn't know what they were getting in to, you know what I mean?

At any rate, this whole thing is the same issue I struggled with for years before settling on what I felt was right for us! What it really boiled down to was our goals for our dog. I'm really looking forward to getting involved with SchH, and I want a dog with an absolute rock solid temperament because I have a toddler. It's a really fine balance finding what I want in a rescue (not that I haven't been looking, just in case!) so a breeder just really feels like the right fit. I also have known tons of shepherds with breed specific issues that I really would like to avoid, so going to a breeder that tests and tracks for all those things in their lines will put me at the best possible advantage with that.

So what you really need to do is take a good, objective look at your life, situation, handling skills, etc. Are you looking for just a good dog to fit in with your family, or do you have specific goals in mind? Do you feel comfortable raising a puppy, or would you feel better off with an adult with a known temperament? Do you have a breed specific rescue in your area that you would feel comfortable adopting from?

Good luck with your search! You'll make the right decision in the end.


----------



## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

This question is as old as, "which came first: the chicken, or the egg?"

Bottom line, both have pros and cons and it depends wholly on the individual's preferences and life situation. There are crappy rescues out there who place dogs in homes they have no business being in, just as there are stellar rescues who do great evaluations of dogs and work really hard to get a good match. There are crappy breeders out there who throw two dogs together and you have absolutely no idea what you're getting, just as there are stellar breeders who devote their lives to studying bloodlines and titling their dogs. Either way you decide to go, just do your research.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Dogs in rescue are not all going to have issues. How many dogs could:

Sit in a shelter, surrounded by other dogs, maybe in with 7 other dogs in one pen and not enough food for all, being barked at, smelling sickness and death after either being dropped off there or being picked up while stray
Get poked and prodded by strangers and have a fake hand coming at them while they are eating and not react
Get tested with other dogs and cats and do well with both
Get thrown into a stranger's car, go to a vet office where they are given the same kind of exams your dogs do, blood draws, vaccines, but without a person they know to help them.
Maybe go on a 1 or 2 day transport, being transferred to a new stranger every hour, having to potty on a leash, stay overnight in another stranger's house, or another type of transport in a van with 20-30 other strange dogs
Until they land in a foster home probably with other dogs, cats and maybe even kids, get thrown in a tub and then, maybe, they could rest before going on to the next new thing
Not so bad. You can find so many "training wheels" GSDs in rescue - ones that are ready to relax and settle down and just be a good dog. 

A great breeder is the other option and yes, you can do both over time.  

But llike loveecho says - if you look for either a really good breeder or a really good rescue and find a match, you will be okay - it just takes work to get both. But it will save you so much time in the long run! Know who you are supporting - either with your money or the adoption donation - and how they will support you through your dog's life. 

Good luck!


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

You can make a morally sound decision on either side of the coin. I don't think it is about WHICH decision you make as much as it is about the thought you put into it and the effort you make to choose what will be best for you and your household and for the dog.

I will flatly not consider a rescue. Won't do it. There are some key (for me) reasons underlying this. A moral decision is to bring in a dog who stands an overwhelming chance of staying in the home, not a dog who is already on probation in one's mind. For me, the dog who does stand that chance is a puppy who will know nothing but our home. 

Rescuing a dog in the name of doing the "more socially responsible" thing is actually very irresponsible if one does not think they are up for the challenges that can come with a rescue dog, just like buying a puppy and not being prepared to deal with the "fun" (and fun) of the developmental stages would be irresponsible. Pick your poison.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why must it be mutually exclusive? I have four dogs right now, two purebred from breeders and two that are mixes from rescues. One of them I co-bred, but I'm also actively involved in a local rescue. I get whatever dog "fits" and don't feel guilty about my choices.


----------



## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Why not do both?

I have a co worker that has a purebred dog and a mix from the shelter and that's the way she has always done it. If the PB passes away then she gets another PB, when the mix passes away so goes out and adopts another mix.

I have 2 purebred dogs and a purebred cat. I also have 3 cats that I adopted from a shelter. I will always have a purebred dog from a reputable breeder but someday I would like to adopt some sort of black and white, medium sized, fluffy dog mix. If ever I were to get more cats I will always rescue them.


----------



## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

Liesje said:


> Why must it be mutually exclusive? I have four dogs right now, two purebred from breeders and two that are mixes from rescues. One of them I co-bred, but I'm also actively involved in a local rescue. I get whatever dog "fits" and don't feel guilty about my choices.


Exactly this!
Sheilah


----------



## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

Wolfenstein said:


> I agree with you on the first bit, and was actually coming to say pretty much the same thing, but the second part I disagree a bit. I think you absolutely can have a rescue GSD for your first GSD, but it *REALLY needs to be evaluated* by a rescue group that is GSD breed specific. Meaning, they are absolute pros at evaluating temperament and getting the right dog in the right home. Just like a good, reputable breeder will help evaluate the right puppy for the situation, a good, reputable rescue will do the same. Moreover, by adopting an adult dog with known temperament, you can even get a dog that already has some obedience and housebreaking under its belt, and you can be past the difficulties of puppy-hood and adolescence. If you're unsure of your handling skills and get a puppy from a breeder, you could possibly BE one of those people that didn't know what they were getting in to, you know what I mean?
> 
> *So what you really need to do is take a good, objective look at your life, situation, handling skills, etc. Are you looking for just a good dog to fit in with your family, or do you have specific goals in mind? Do you feel comfortable raising a puppy, or would you feel better off with an adult with a known temperament? Do you have a breed specific rescue in your area that you would feel comfortable adopting from?*


I think you said it much better than I did. As I briefly slipped in there, I had issues with the rescue organizations in our area. I don't trust "ours" to properly evaluate my left foot. At least the numerous people over the numerous organizations I dealt with. Again, I didn't want to go into that in this thread. 

I would get a second opinion on the evaluation through a reputable trainer, especially as my first GSD. 

Your last paragraph I quoted is Gold.


----------



## misslesleedavis1 (Dec 5, 2013)

I have both, Dexter is my PB Border Collie whom i purchased right from a very amazing breeder. Shiloh and Tyson are both rescue dogs, Shiloh 1 day away from being gassed in quebec, Tyson 1 day away from being put to sleep humanley. 

I am a volunteer for a rescue, i abslutely love dogs. I dont have anything against breeders that do it responsibly, i have problems with BYB, puppy mills and so on. I think that whatever you choose to do is your choice, i know when my 3 dogs pass on i will most likely drop some serious cash for a PB GSD, i dont buy into the whole "when you choose to buy a dog your responsible for killing a shelter dog' bit. Its mostly the people who want a dog NOW, or are un prepared for a dog being a life commitment that end up buying from puppy mills, because they are quick easy and always have a ready supply of dogs you can get NOW..then those dogs end up in shelters because the breeders wont take them back and the people are not mature enough to stick with it. When you drop 1500 or 1800 on a dog you have probably thought long and hard about it and you plan on being a part of its life till the end. I would suggest you do whatever you want to do. Rescue a dog! buy a dog! do whatever makes you happy.

This is not a stab at good people who buy from BYB.


----------



## Eiros (Jun 30, 2011)

I would only ever get a rescue or a dog from a reputable breeder. I think both decisions are wise decisions. I love my rescue, but I know I'll want to find the perfect dog from a breeder someday too, based on what I want to achieve for them. Warden is a good boy but lower drive and and if I wanted a dog for sports and competitions I'd seek out a dog with those traits. I'll always look at rescues though and I'll probably always have one. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## MichaelE (Dec 15, 2012)

People who are uneducated about the breed will continue to buy from BYB's. These people will always exist and so then will BYB's.

Uneducated people will balk at laying out upwards of $1200 or more for a puppy for the kiddies when they can get one for $300 out of the newspaper and are clueless about the price difference as well as the breed.


----------



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Why must it be mutually exclusive? I have four dogs right now, two purebred from breeders and two that are mixes from rescues. One of them I co-bred, but I'm also actively involved in a local rescue. I get whatever dog "fits" and don't feel guilty about my choices.


@Liejse that's a good plan and I hope it works though. Only my animal liberationist sister is going end up yelling at me because she sees stuff black and white about breeding. She thinks dogs are being used as property gets raped and a dog dies when he had an opportunity for adoption.


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

For me there's only 2 ways to go for a new dog. Shelters and rescues OR pay the big bucks and support the RESPONSIBLE breeder and what they are trying to do for their chosen breed.

I'd never pay a penny for a dog otherwise.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html


----------



## stmcfred (Aug 13, 2013)

I have both. My 9 year old dog came from the local kill shelter when he was 6-8 weeks old. My 17 week old pup came from a responsible breeder.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> @Liejse that's a good plan and I hope it works though. Only my animal liberationist sister is going end up yelling at me because she sees stuff black and white about breeding. She thinks dogs are being used as property gets raped and a dog dies when he had an opportunity for adoption.


Am I a bad person because I think this level of irrational thinking is actually really funny?


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

WateryTart said:


> Am I a bad person because I think this level of irrational thinking is actually really funny?


It *would* be funny if that sort of irrational fanaticism didn't seriously threaten the existence of good breeders, purebred dogs, or pet ownership in general. 

To the original question, good breeders are not contributing to the "pet overpopulation problem". If it even is truly a problem. I'm not so sure it is, but think it's more a case of inequitable distribution. There are many areas that have so few adoptable dogs in shelters compared to the number of people wanting to adopt that they transport dogs from other ares with a surplus to meet the demand. Sometimes going so far as to import stray dogs from other countries. Someone wanting to adopt a dog in those areas, especially if looking for a specific breed, may not be able to find it in a shelter/rescue. Then of course there are other areas of the country where shelters are overflowing. So much of the decision may depend on geographic area and what is available.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting a dog from a shelter or rescue. But there is also absolutely nothing wrong with getting a dog from a good breeder who is preserving their breed, and not contributing to any perceived shelter problem. It really depends on what the person wants in a dog. If the person just wants a dog, I think in most cases the shelter/rescue option is the best way to go. If the person wants a PB dog, rescue might be a good option or a breeder might be a good option. Again depends on the goals. Certainly if someone is looking for a dog for a specific purpose such as show, sport or work, the chances of finding a likely candidate are much higher working with a good breeder.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Chris Wild said:


> It *would* be funny if that sort of irrational fanaticism didn't seriously threaten the existence of good breeders, purebred dogs, or pet ownership in general.


Well and...my sense of humor often doesn't translate well "on paper."

The consequences are ABSOLUTELY not funny. They are serious and very concerning in too many ways to list.

The irrationality, considered separately from its consequences in a "Wait, WHAT?!" kind of space is very funny to me in a ridiculous sort of way.


----------



## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

Get two dogs when you're ready, one from each. Compare them constantly against each other and fret hourly about your choice. When people ask about them proudly proclaim "This one was a rescue!" about he adopted one and guiltily add "and... this one I adopted from a breeder" because apparently it's hard for lots of people to come out and say "I bought this gorgeous animal from a breeder who put years of education into his breeding and countless hours on his early development so I could have a stable and well-rounded pet".

I'm in both camps. I have dogs from breeders for showing and breeding and I have mutts (crazy, insane, impossible dogs) from rescue. I fostered for years. I still take rotating fosters. Only you can make that decision for yourself. It has nothing to do with morals and everything to do with what you want out of your dog and your plans for him.


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Either rescuing a dog or buying from a responsible breeder is a fine choice. I see absolutely nothing wrong with doing either one, and I agree wholeheartedly with Liesje that it doesn't have to be a mutually exclusive choice. I have rescue mutts now and plan to buy my next performance dog from the best breeder I can find.

You can even get rescue dogs _from_ breeders. Many good breeders are also active in their breed's rescue organizations and will foster, train, and evaluate dogs for their groups. It really, truly, is not an either-or situation.

That said, I want to call this out:



Sp00ks said:


> Every rescue is going to have issues albeit some only very minor however, you must prepare for the worst.


because it's a pernicious myth that a couple of people have repeated in this thread and it is *absolutely not true,* unless you want to say that "every rescue has issues" in the sense that "every dog has issues" and might steal the odd sock or potty in your kitchen once or twice before learning the house rules. What dog doesn't?

The huge majority of dogs I've fostered and placed have been wonderful, affectionate, healthy, problem-free dogs. The one I just placed was a phenomenal family dog who loved children and was gentle with toddlers and had a biddable yet rock-solid temperament.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this "every rescue dog has issues" myth is an ignorant and incorrect statement, and I _will_ call it out.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Sorry to be so blunt, but this "every rescue dog has issues" myth is an ignorant and incorrect statement, and I _will_ call it out.


I don't know if you mean me, but I'll qualify.

Most people I know have rescued their dogs as opposed to buying them. And most of those dogs have behavioral issues that had to be worked out, many times the result of something in the dog's prior history.

Yes, every animal has quirks and issues and I'm banking on my puppy throwing me plenty of "WTF was that??" behaviors. But the likelihood of an adult rescue coming in with baggage seems logically quite a bit higher than the likelihood of baggage in a 7-9 week old puppy who has known nothing but solid care, yes? I do not think it is ignorant to acknowledge that an adult dog in rescue has a history that may translate into behaviors that create a qualitatively different training/acclimation experience that doesn't work for everybody. Shorthand for all that might well be the use of the word, "issues" (the merit of which I'm open to agreeing might be low).


----------



## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

WateryTart said:


> But the likelihood of an adult rescue coming in with baggage seems logically quite a bit higher than the likelihood of baggage in a 7-9 week old puppy who has known nothing but solid care, yes?


I think it's likely that people _imagine_ this, but the facts do not support this speculation, which is why I don't think you'll see a lot of people with extensive experience actually doing rescue supporting this assumption.

Most rescue dogs do not have a history of abuse. Most don't come out of puppy mills as ex-breeder dogs who have never seen the unfiltered light of day. Those are dramatic examples, so they're the ones that often stick out in the public's minds, but they are not representative of the average.

Some of those dogs do have physical and psychological damage as a result of their past trauma. But it's not even all of _those_ dogs, and those are the extreme outlier cases who are no more representative of all shelter/rescue dogs than pet store cockapoos are representative of all "breeder dogs."

And most dogs who wind up in the shelter/rescue system don't have that history and don't have any "baggage." Most of them were just family dogs (or, in the rural Southern shelters that most of my fosters come from, yard dogs) who weren't trained in any way at all. They are total blank slates. They're very easy to train, they don't have ingrained bad habits (everything in an indoor/urban environment is so new to them that it's all a complete clean start), and the ones I choose are older adolescents and adults, so their size, physical structure, and basic underlying temperament are established and easy to assess.

If you know what you're doing and you have some basic understanding of how to read a dog, it is not at all difficult to find a shelter or rescue dog who is as easy and companionable as anybody could want for a family pet. It's harder to find working/performance prospects, but again, if you know what you're looking for and you're patient and you have access to the right shelter populations, you can find them too.

Are they perfect? No, of course not. No dog is perfect. They pee in my house and they try to chase squirrels on leash and some of them whine in the crate for a few days and a couple of them jump on people for attention. But they aren't crazy problem-raddled Issue Dogs, either.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Of the dogs I've adopted or fostered, the only issues were medical and all were corrected (save for one older dog who was happy and mobile enough without operating on a large, benign tumor).


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I think it's likely that people _imagine_ this, but the facts do not support this speculation, which is why I don't think you'll see a lot of people with extensive experience actually doing rescue supporting this assumption.
> 
> Most rescue dogs do not have a history of abuse. Most don't come out of puppy mills as ex-breeder dogs who have never seen the unfiltered light of day. Those are dramatic examples, so they're the ones that often stick out in the public's minds, but they are not representative of the average.
> 
> ...


*shrug*

I wasn't necessarily talking about extreme stuff. History is history, and perhaps the use of the word "baggage" was more colorful than accurate.

At any rate, I agree with you that not all rescue dogs have issues. I can see why you feel that is poor phrasing.

Trying to speak very precisely: A dog of any age has history - I think that's a fact. A 7 week old puppy has a shorter history than a 3 year old dog - I think that's a fact as well. More time can easily introduce more chances (not more occurrences but more chances) for unknowns or for some learning experience that will shape the later training/"life with" experience.

You can disagree with me, of course!  But I don't think that assumption I outlined is wildly off base.

And given that while I realize it's a small sample size, I'm also okay with some vicarious learning about which poison I'd rather have, I'm good with using that rationale to inform my choice. I'd never say anyone else had to think that same way, but it works well enough for me.


----------



## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I adopted a dog from a shelter-20 dollars-her only issue was she did not like puppies-it was pretty easily managed-after I found out-and was in good health until her later years-but I think that's going to happen with any dog


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

None of my (5 over the years), personal rescue dogs have had any issues. Zip-zero. Actually, they are better behaved and healthier than my pb's. I was very lucky to learn from this board what a "shelter favorite" was.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Merciel...my two current rescues, the C-monster and Miss Jeni-take-a-ride, want you to know that they are perfect doggies, and have been from day one...lolol, but seriously, it was amazing to me that they literally had no issues at all. My pb's have health and temperment issues, and are quite demanding and high maintenance. And both are very well bred and come from exhaustively researched and well respected breeders.


----------



## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

To the OP, go with what is right at the time. That may be a rescue, it may be a purchased dog. Just so it is the right dog for you it doesn't matter if it comes from a breeder or the pound down the street. If you purchase a pup, let your sister have spasms and yell. She'll feel better having bitched you out for your choice. She can then march down to her favorite rescue/pound/shelter and adopt another for herself or make a generous donation to make up for your morally bankrupt ways. You will have then contributed to her feeling of self-righteousness all the while you got the right dog for you.

FYI my background: first dog was destined to be returned to the pound - I couldn't let that happen; second dog was a re-home; third dog was a pound puppy; fourth dog appeared with a punctured trachea and jugular in my backyard; fifth dog was from a breeder (nothing in the pound/shelter was right); sixth dog was from a breeder; seventh dog was from the pound (on euthanasia list); eighth dog was from a breeder; ninth dog was a rehome; tenth dog from a breeder. The last disappointed several people. Too bad.


----------



## Sp00ks (Nov 8, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Sorry to be so blunt, but this "every rescue dog has issues" myth is an ignorant and incorrect statement, and I _will_ call it out.


I make no excuse for my incorrect and ignorant statement aside from it was during my first cup of coffee. Maybe I was still sitting on my PC hat. I'm good with blunt. 

May I take this opportunity to rephrase my statement? Every rescue "I" have rescued has had issues albeit some were minor. I literally carried a full grown female around my house for weeks because she would not walk through a doorway and I was DARNED happy to do so. All the dogs I have rescued have turned into wonderful pets. 

Just another pesky new person I guess.


----------



## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Currently I have one from a breeder, two from a shelter, and one from rescue. 
I love them all equally and they all have their pro's and con's. I believe the rest of my dogs will come from shelters and rescues because I'm older and my kids are grown I'm more able to work with issues, so if I can help to save a dog I will. 
I don't regret in any way the dogs I bought from breeders but now is my time to pay it back and support the rescues.


----------



## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I will bring home that which best fits my needs. If I'm wanting a dog to utilize to compete with, I'll find a breeder. If I want a dog that will sit on my lap and watch TV, I'll go through a rescue. 

I won't make a 10+ year commitment based on how I think others will feel about my decision. I will not be held responsible for another's bad decision. 

I currently have four dogs. They have all come from different walks of life, byb, hobby breeder, reputable breeder & rescue.


----------



## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If it were possible to put a moritorium on all breeding to eliminate the population of shelter dogs, then I think many of the best breeders and more responsible breed fanciers might go ahead and do so, even though, they are not contributing to the problem. 

Unfortunately, the breeders who are mass-producing puppies of all breeds, and mixtures of breeds aren't going anywhere, to them breeding is a way of life and it can be lucrative. The people who have purebred dogs,, and want to make purebred puppies to make a few bucks and have some progeny of their dog, well, they aren't going anywhere either. 

The ONLY people who might for the sake of dogs dying in shelters, stop breeding, are those that are the most likely to breed conscientiously, and to take back those pups/dogs, that do not work out or for one reason or another need a new home. These are likely also the ones that probably have the best line on breeding dogs that will preserve the integrity of the breed. For these people to stop breeding, it means leaving the breed in the hands of those who are least likely to do what is best for the breed regardless of the costs to themselves. 

You can get plenty of dogs, purebred or mixtures in pounds or rescues that do not have any problems, physical or behavioral, that will make awesome companions. 

You can get dogs from anywhere, pet stores, classified ads, craigslist, pounds, bybs, excellent breeders that have problems with health or temperament problems. Yes, yes, the good breeders are getting their dogs tested and research pedigrees, and what the dogs produce to improve your chances of avoiding serious issues. But it does not guaranty you a healthy, happy, perfect pet. Sorry. The reason to go to a breeder is because you love the breed and are encouraged by what a breeder is trying to do, and you want to own they type of dog they are producing, and you want to support their endeavor. It is your contribution in preserving the breed. If you want a dog for showing, breeding, or working, or competing in at high levels in sport going with the breeder who is producing this type of dog makes sense, and supports and encourages that type of breeder and contributes in preserving the breed. 

Going to a BYB, pet store, pound, shelter, rescue, etc. does not contribute to preserving the breed, or preserving certain characteristics of the breed. There is nothing wrong with rescuing a dog from a shelter, pound, or rescue. If that is where you are at, and you want to preserve an individual dog and give it a great life, that's awesome. Go for it. Buying from pet stores or people who just want a litter out of their Maisey, or people who want to get their purchase price back, etc. Doing this is a problem, because would be encouraging the wrong kinds of breeders, and it is often the bottom line, the price tag, which is the deciding factor. For a breeder to be concerned with and make money from their breeding is oh so terrible, but it is perfectly ok for buyers to make it their deciding factor. 

Ah well, this post will be 1000 word or more if I expound on everything I find funny or at odds. 

The thing is, reducing the numbers of homeless dogs can exist with preserving the breed that we love. These things are not diametrically opposed to each other. Just like all rescues should not be painted with the same brush, neither should all breeders. 

I wish there were easy answers and a well-defined path to reducing the numbers of dogs produced, while maintaining the breed itself. We spout education, and it does work. Unfortunately, sometimes it is after people have gone to breeders who are not so good that they learn why it is not a good thing to do.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

not sure what the answer is to the huge numbers of dogs needing rescue, but i surely know it's not restricting conscientious breeders. anyone who rescues who thinks that's what the answer is, as bill nye the science guy says, "is just wrong".


----------



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

katieliz said:


> not sure what the answer is to the huge numbers of dogs needing rescue, but i surely know it's not restricting conscientious breeders. anyone who rescues who thinks that's what the answer is, as bill nye the science guy says, "is just wrong".


@katieliz thing is rescuing or adopting means you save a life. Millions of dogs die in shelters every year and it is said when adopting or rescuing a dog. Then a dog in a shelter gets saved.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Lobobear44...please read selzer's post above, again. The problem is vast and much more complicated and multi dimensional than just adoption/rescue -vs- purchase from a breeder saving lives. Someplace to start tho might be to make puppy mills, retail pet stores, and horrid things like the buckeye dog auctions not legal.


----------



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

katieliz said:


> Lobobear44...please read selzer's post above, again. The problem is vast and much more complicated and multi dimensional than just adoption/rescue -vs- purchase from a breeder saving lives. Someplace to start tho might be to make puppy mills, retail pet stores, and horrid things like the buckeye dog auctions not legal.


I never said responsible breeding was the contribution to the crisis. A combination of irresponsible breeding, irresponsible breeding, puppy mills, etc are the reason so many dogs are in deadly trouble everyday


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Didn't see where anyone said you said responsible breeding was a contributing factor. I think I'm not sure what your question/point is.


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

And the reason so many dogs are in deadly trouble every day, is because there are so many uncaring, irresponsible owners (well, a vast majority of them anyway).


----------



## Wolfenstein (Feb 26, 2009)

Lobobear44 said:


> @katieliz thing is rescuing or adopting means you save a life. Millions of dogs die in shelters every year and it is said when adopting or rescuing a dog. Then a dog in a shelter gets saved.



I think what she's trying to say here is just that even if you take away the "RAWR! Contributing to shelter population!! " part of it, if you adopt a dog, you're freeing up space for another dog to go into rescue. So it's not "Adding to the problem" vs "Helping" more than it's "Getting a purebred dog" vs "Saving a shelter dog".

I don't think I made that point any more clear, haha!

At any rate, if someone were to feel guilty about buying a dog from a responsible breeder (which they definitely shouldn't!!), something you could always do is donate and/or volunteer with great rescue organizations. But it shouldn't really be a necessary thing to clear your conscious about it. Just something if you want to help. It's really sad when people see these things as so black and white, and try to make you feel like a bad person for supporting someone that's really making a positive difference in a breed.


----------



## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

If people stop supporting good breeders, all we will be left with are the bad ones, whose "product" often ends up in rescue or the shelter.


----------



## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Lobobear44 said:


> @katieliz thing is rescuing or adopting means you save a life. Millions of dogs die in shelters every year and it is said when adopting or rescuing a dog. Then a dog in a shelter gets saved.


Truthfully, I don't see it as a zero sum game. As someone pointed out above, it's a complex problem and the solutions (or stopgaps?) are multifaceted and multipronged.

Yes, there are a finite number of home slots, but I don't think that obligates someone to take on a certain dog that may not be what they want or what fits their home.

I may get in trouble for bringing this line of logic in, but I don't think it is terribly far off from insisting that people adopt instead of have biological babies because for every baby born, that's a home that some other child couldn't have.

The truth is that these are choices - both for dogs or kids - that people need to make on their own, because they're personal.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Lobobear44 said:


> @katieliz thing is rescuing or adopting means you save a life. Millions of dogs die in shelters every year and it is said when adopting or rescuing a dog. Then a dog in a shelter gets saved.


Maybe for you..... When I'm ready for a new dog I spend months, sometimes even YEARS researching ALL avenues. I don't personally care where the dog comes from, only that it's an appropriate match. If I don't find a match, I don't get a new dog, period. If I find a match with a breeder, that's because I didn't find one in a local shelter or rescue.


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

For some people, it's not that cut and dried. If I didn't have Varik, my 8 month old pup, then .. I wouldn't be adopting a random shelter dog (ergo freeing up a spot for another dog). I just wouldn't have a second dog at all. I've fostered and also adopted (was entreated to adopt by another rescue that I volunteered with). At this point in my life and with the constraints I have, I am very picky about what dogs I want.

I take good care of my dogs and don't care what others think about where I got em.


----------



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Sunflowers said:


> If people stop supporting good breeders, all we will be left with are the bad ones, whose "product" often ends up in rescue or the shelter.


Very true we need to end the bad ones. Make a rule only responsible breeders are allowed to breed not people just doing it without knowing what they are getting into.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My suggestion...find a GSD group or a club. Somewhere that breeders congregate. Make friends with them, learn from them, develop a personal relationship. That way, when they have a dog returned to them, you're at the top of their list for someone that they can trust with the dog...

That way, you end up with a very well bred dog and also one that needs a home. By the way, many times, the breeders won't even charge you for the dog. They're just happy it will have a good home for the rest of its life.


----------



## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have dogs from both, a couple I've rescued/adopted, the majority I've purchased from breeders.

I don't like the guilt trip some put on people by saying, 'for every dog you buy one dies in a shelter'...It's a personal choice.

I get what I want, if I see a rescue that I'm interested in, I will adopt it, but when I'm looking for something specific with a specific thing in mind, I'm going the breeder route. 

I won't be made to feel guilty because I choose to buy a dog vs rescue one


----------



## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Lobobear44 said:


> Very true we need to end the bad ones. Make a rule only responsible breeders are allowed to breed not people just doing it without knowing what they are getting into.


And who makes those rules .. and decides what constraint to put on the would be breeders? Who gets to decide how knowledgeable that breeder is? Some bureaucrat that has no clue?


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I've personally owned three dogs. One from a shelter, one directly from a BYB, and one from a reputable breeder.

I'll never go the BYB route again. I would adopt from a shelter if I found a dog that fits without hesitation, and I would certainly go with a good breeder again. In the end, it's not the dog's fault where it's born, if the dog fits with you then why not take it home as long as the money isn't lining the BYB's pocket and you're able to care for it.


----------



## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

Merciel said:


> Sorry to be so blunt, but this "every rescue dog has issues" myth is an ignorant and incorrect statement, and I _will_ call it out.


:thumbup:
after being here a few weeks, I've seen more people come on with puppies that had health or temperament issues, even from so-called reputable breeders (mega-E anyone??) some have joint issues, hips, elbows, allergies as the new adorable puppy grows up.

with adult dogs in rescue, what you see is what you get.
adopted dogs are only 1/2 the equation, the pets in the new home and the new owner is the other 1/2, some owners get things with the newly acquired adult dog messed up, give the dog too much freedom too soon without setting boundaries or rules, human equivalent is a "spoiled brat child" and many or most dogs do poorly in that type environment for lack of a good leader


----------



## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

Lobo, I had to chuckle about the "make a rule" thing. Oh, if only we could, if ONLY we could...i volunteer to make the rules!!!

At this point all we can do is have personal "rules" in our own heads...education is the only answer, the children are where to start. Got to get away from the "everything's disposable" attitude and change how we view our relationship with others walking this time path with us. Of course, before we can educate the children to care THEY must be cared for...so we must somehow solve the problem of throw away children...such big challenges comin' for our future generations...


----------



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

Wolfenstein said:


> I think what she's trying to say here is just that even if you take away the "RAWR! Contributing to shelter population!! " part of it, if you adopt a dog, you're freeing up space for another dog to go into rescue. So it's not "Adding to the problem" vs "Helping" more than it's "Getting a purebred dog" vs "Saving a shelter dog".
> 
> I don't think I made that point any more clear, haha!
> 
> At any rate, if someone were to feel guilty about buying a dog from a responsible breeder (which they definitely shouldn't!!), something you could always do is donate and/or volunteer with great rescue organizations. But it shouldn't really be a necessary thing to clear your conscious about it. Just something if you want to help. It's really sad when people see these things as so black and white, and try to make you feel like a bad person for supporting someone that's really making a positive difference in a breed.


I know people seeing things black and white and won't listen. I have even talked to a lot of breeders for education. People think dogs are forced to breed and are raped. As experience with animal rights activists they see black and white. Real truth is they don't want animals to suffer no more. By taking them away from humans interactions. But that will be more harm than good. My sister thinks dogs and cats should be free in the wild.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Dogs and cats would die in the wild.

I got my first GSD from a breeder. I was planning on getting my second one from a breeder as well. Then I met some foster dogs a friend of mine kept getting. Amazing animals. Nothing wrong with them. And I was really intrigued by the idea of rescuing one of them. It's just my personal opinion, but there is something warm and fuzzy about adopting or rescuing an animal in need, more so than when you purchase one from a breeder.

I do despise the people that judge, or make you feel bad for purchasing a purebred dog. Many though just don't get that if you have a goal in mind for the dog, you need to have some idea of the genetics and what to expect. Many I've realized, are dead set that nurture overrules nature...when in reality it doesn't. The idea that "there are no bad dogs, just bad owners" is a farce IMO.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You should make the decisions that best suit you, I wouldn't be concerned with what your sister thinks, be your own person, make your own choices.


----------



## trcy (Mar 1, 2013)

Before I got Riley we tried going through a GSD rescue. They were just too difficult to deal with. Even after passing the application and phone interview.


----------



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

martemchik said:


> Dogs and cats would die in the wild.
> 
> I got my first GSD from a breeder. I was planning on getting my second one from a breeder as well. Then I met some foster dogs a friend of mine kept getting. Amazing animals. Nothing wrong with them. And I was really intrigued by the idea of rescuing one of them. It's just my personal opinion, but there is something warm and fuzzy about adopting or rescuing an animal in need, more so than when you purchase one from a breeder.
> 
> I do despise the people that judge, or make you feel bad for purchasing a purebred dog. Many though just don't get that if you have a goal in mind for the dog, you need to have some idea of the genetics and what to expect. Many I've realized, are dead set that nurture overrules nature...when in reality it doesn't. The idea that "there are no bad dogs, just bad owners" is a farce IMO.


@martemchik 

An idea is to be doing many things with my future GS. I will train him myself except for nose workshops, etc. While I'm still young being active, and youth is important to me. Not just sitting in a house wasting my dog's life and mines. He can be whoever he wants to be have freedom. However I will set boundaries in a way that are safe and healthy. He can jump on me but not on others. I have goals for both purchasing from a responsible breeder and rescues.


----------



## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Lobobear44 said:


> @martemchik
> 
> An idea is to be doing many things with my future GS. I will train him myself except for nose workshops, etc. While I'm still young being active, and youth is important to me. Not just sitting in a house wasting my dog's life and mines. He can be whoever he wants to be have freedom. However I will set boundaries in a way that are safe and healthy. He can jump on me but not on others. I have goals for both purchasing from a responsible breeder and rescues.


When I say doing something, I'm talking working the dog. A K9, a SAR dog, Schutzhund, other sports. Mostly because if that dog ends up failing due to its genetics...you're stuck with a dog for a decade that isn't cut out to do what you as a human want to do...and then if you get another dog that is meant to do one of those types of work/sport, then that first "failure" kind of gets pushed to the side and doesn't get all the attention it probably deserves.

You'll hear SAR people talk about how they literally can't afford for a dog to fail...you're talking hundreds of hours worth of training just to find out the dog isn't cut out for the job or has health problems that won't allow it to do the job properly/safely.

Not that there's anything wrong with "pet training" or just taking your dog for hikes and enjoying life with that dog...its just rare that you won't find a dog that doesn't enjoy a hike through the woods or a dog that can't learn manners. For more advanced training, if the dog doesn't have the courage to bite a helper and you want to do Schutzhund, you're SOL.

Just an example...I know a lady that loves to do agility. She got a puppy from the same breeder she got her last dog from because she had some success with that dog. Well this pup has weak/down pasterns (he's over a year old) and it really wouldn't be safe for her to continue/force him to jump and run agility. So for the next decade, she is going to have a dog that she can't fully enjoy in the way that she wants. Don't get me wrong, he'll be a very loved and taken care of dog...but he just wasn't what she was expecting.


----------



## Lobobear44 (Jan 28, 2013)

martemchik said:


> When I say doing something, I'm talking working the dog. A K9, a SAR dog, Schutzhund, other sports. Mostly because if that dog ends up failing due to its genetics...you're stuck with a dog for a decade that isn't cut out to do what you as a human want to do...and then if you get another dog that is meant to do one of those types of work/sport, then that first "failure" kind of gets pushed to the side and doesn't get all the attention it probably deserves.
> 
> You'll hear SAR people talk about how they literally can't afford for a dog to fail...you're talking hundreds of hours worth of training just to find out the dog isn't cut out for the job or has health problems that won't allow it to do the job properly/safely.
> 
> ...


@martemchik

I tried looking for German shepherd meetups and clubs. However, most of them are far away or end up not being there. On the contrary found my second favorite breed meetup the Husky/Malamute meetup thing at a popular dog park. My rescue organization Norsled goes there who I need to go see! I am going to do both mostly rescues and responsible breeders. All dogs rescues, except for exceptional German shepherds. Hard to explain in words why I want them. Not the just the looks for decoration. That would be seeing them in the property manner. Dogs are my friends, they are not property. German shepherds are loyal, protective (not making that mistake again), loving, aloof towards strangers, reserves love to particular people, etc. Again it all has to do with understand my philosophy, so don't take me the wrong way.


----------

