# I have been advised to surrender my dog. Need emotional support.



## jennifernikki

Long story short. We rescued Finley last December, he was almost 5 months old. From the beginning, he had agression issues w/ my kids (ages 2, 5 & 6), expecially my 5 yr old. He actually nipped the younger two. I brought him to our local kennal club for some training & he snapped at the trainer. Thats when she suggested behavioral training. So i went to one session & Finley snapped at him, when the trainer was trying to show him dominace. His aggression is so bad, we can't have anyone over to our house. My niece was babysitting last week. He's met her plenty of times & out of nowhere he was vicisouly growling, showing his teeth & barking at her. The list goes on.

I can't figure out how to link my post, but it's titled :
*Fearful dominant dog, can this be corrected?
*
From the beginning, I noticed he had hip problems. No one believed me, and we never took him in for it, until today. The vet took one look at him, and said he's not a purebred. Which totally shocked me. and that he defiantly has hip problems. It's so hard for him to get up from a laying down position. He's been slipping on the floor, etc. 
She said that his behavior issue is probably linked to his medical issue. She said he would need extensive training & medical treatment, that unfourtenaly, we don't have the time and/or money for.
I never in a million years thought that i would give an animal up. I remember when looking for dogs last year, when my beloved GSD Max passed. i would see all the ownder surrenders & just cry & couldnt understand why/how someone can do that. Now here I am.
Am I giving up to soon? The vet said she'll help us find someone. Shes pretty confident that she won't have any trouble helping us find someone that will have the time to train him & treat him. 
Am I a failure. Please be honest. I sure feel like one. I'm so embarrassed & sad. I can't imangine handing him over, how scared he'll be. Looking at him for the last time. 
Has anyone ever had to do this?

Thank you for reading my story.


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## qbchottu

Have you had hip/elbow/spine xrays done on the dog? Have you had a DM genetic test and diagnostic test done for him? Has he had comprehensive health checkups?
Dogs can and will react out of pain. This could have something to do with it. So first get a definitive diagnosis by getting xrays and a solid medical workup done.

If his hips turn out to be very bad and if his temperament/nerves are poor, why would you want to pass this trouble on to someone else? If you decide that the dog cannot be rehabilitated and that medical fees are not feasible, I would put the dog down. I don't think it is right to pass a dog with this many issues on to someone else. 

Unless you find a VERY experienced GSD owner that is willing to absorb the medical costs, training and management responsibilities, I don't think this dog should be handed over to anyone else. 

I understand this is a hard decision to make, but please do what is in the best interest of the dog. Living things are not a guarantee. Sometimes your dog that is the love of your life will be afflicted with devastating medical or mental problems. I have gone through this and believe me, I know how it feels to be completely powerless to help your best friend. It's a heart wrenching feeling - just nauseating and terrifying. But unfortunately, dogs sometimes have severe issues that we have to accept they won't recover from. In these cases, we have to ask ourselves what is in the best interest of the dog. You also need to ask yourself if it is ethical to give a dog with so many issues to another person.


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## selzer

Your children are first. If your dog hurts your children they can become fearful of dogs forever. Somehow you seem to be managing the dog and your kids. 

Yes, the pain can cause him to nip at the kids. He is a teenager now, and the painful hips makes training and exercising him properly very hard. I don't like trainers who try to dominate someone else's dog. If the dog is fearful, what choice does the dog have but to snap at him?

Remember that barking, growling, snarling (showing teeth), and snapping are all attempts by the dog NOT TO HAVE TO BITE someone. But it is disheartening that he is growling at your nieces. 

Send a PM to Karma, she has a bitch who is a couple of years old now that she rescued and had to go through hip surgery. 

Without the pain (hip surgery), some NILIF, and I don't know, a bit more time, and your pup might be a different dog. And, unfortunately, he may not. 

Alternatives to consider:
1. Call the shelter, explain the issues, and what the dog needs and see if they know of anyone that might be able to help you. Who knows, someone might be willing to help someone keep their dog by providing some veterinary care or money for care. 

2. Apply for Care-credit. And do the surgery and pay over time. 

Utlimately, you need to make a decision. Another person might just euthanize this dog for either one of his problems. I am sorry you are having this issue. 

If the vet will help find him a home that can manage both the medical and the training needed, that really might be your best bet. But no, it won't be easy.


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## Narny

Youre not a failure and its ok to owner surrender especially under these circumstances. You arent dumping your dog. You are looking for someone who can better care for your dog. 

I know that a lot of people here seem to put their dogs before the family and say that you have an obligation blah blah blah,.. and sure thats all true, But what of your obligation to your 2, 5, and 6 year olds? This dog is dangerous for them in its current state. By finding him a new home and getting treatment you are ensuring that he dosent hurt someone and then have to be put down all because of the pain hes in. 

... No you are not making a mistake. You are making the right decision for you and your family by finding a family for you pup. Good luck, I know it cant be easy.

Just make sure that any rescue that takes him promises that he will get treatment (in writing). I dont know what legal ramifications there are for your state however if he did hurt someone because they DIDNT treat him well, that would be horrible. Just make sure its clear in the paperwork that they KNEW of the issues. And also so its not forgotten.


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## Jag

The dog is better off and your family is better off surrendering the dog to someone who is equipped to deal with the medical issues and the aggression issues. I'm sorry you're going through this. Just try to focus on the good of the dog. His issues may or may not be related to the medical stuff. I wouldn't have a dog that was aggressive to my children. A large dog can do serious damage or kill a child. The vet sounds very helpful... I'd take the help. When an animal needs medical attention that you can't afford, or training attention for behavioral issues that you can't afford, the kindest thing you can do is give that animal to someone who can do it. It doesn't mean you failed. It means you're doing everything in your power to make sure the dog is cared for. Don't kick yourself, be proud of yourself that you can do what is right for this dog!


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## wyoung2153

The decision making processs is one of the hardest parts. I had a female boerboel who was 7 months when I was advised to surrender her. She had fear aggression issues and I couldn't afford the extensive training, like you, and finally surrendered her to the breeder. It was so difficult and I cried so much. She was my little girl and loved my little family but I couldn't take her anywhere and being in the military I need an adaptable dog and she just wasn't. Gosh I beat myself up about for the longest time (surrendered in May 2012) I actually recently posted about her in the in loving memory post because she was actually put down because the breeder couldn't afford to fix a broken bone. Gosh I was devastated. But it gets better. You have to know that it is not your fault. That you did the best you could and what's best for him right now is to be given to *another* loving home that can provide the care/treatment and training that he needs. Think of it from that perspective. It takes an incredibley strong person to put the dog's need before their own and that is exactly what you are doing. It's going to be hard if that's what you decide.. but if it means he will get the help and training he needs to be a happier boy to his full potential, I think you will actually be happy for him. I'm so sorry you are going through this. I know all too well the feelings and they are so hard. but you have support, if not from your family and friends then definitely here.. I linked my 3 threads about Athena (my girl) and they might make you feel like you are not alone. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...rible-terrible-person-me-text-heavy-vent.html
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/loving-memory/186701-missing-my-athena.html 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-mad-irritated-sad-irresponsible-annoyed.html

Chin up friend. Everything will be ok.


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## KatsMuse

I found the thread where you had started mentioning the issues.
I don't know how to imbed or link it either...sorry.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...84790-fearful-dominant-dog-can-corrected.html

No, you are NOT a failure. You shouldn't be embarrassed either.
I understand the sadness though...it is a difficult decision to make. 

I cannot give you any advice. I will say that your children have to be considered first and foremost, as well as the safety of other people.

This forum has a lot of experienced and kind people who support each other in many ways ...it's not always about the dogs. 

If there is anything I can do to make you feel better, please let me know. -  Kat


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## Jack's Dad

Jag said:


> The dog is better off and your family is better off surrendering the dog to someone who is equipped to deal with the medical issues and the aggression issues. I'm sorry you're going through this. Just try to focus on the good of the dog. His issues may or may not be related to the medical stuff. I wouldn't have a dog that was aggressive to my children. A large dog can do serious damage or kill a child. The vet sounds very helpful... I'd take the help. When an animal needs medical attention that you can't afford, or training attention for behavioral issues that you can't afford, the kindest thing you can do is give that animal to someone who can do it. It doesn't mean you failed. It means you're doing everything in your power to make sure the dog is cared for. Don't kick yourself, be proud of yourself that you can do what is right for this dog!


Don't disagree with you jag but there are not a lot of people out there looking for aggressive dogs to adopt.

It's hard enough to find homes for all the non aggressive dogs.

The safety of the children is the most important thing even if the dog needs to be PTS.


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## Blanketback

You're not a failure, and you shouldn't feel embarrassed either. I know you're sad - that part I can understand, and I know you'll always be sad about it, but it isn't your fault. If you could change things, I know you would. I know you'd rather Finley be healthy, and happy, and be a great fit for your family. But it's not something you can change and by putting your children first you're making the right decision. I hope the vet is right about finding him a new home and saying she can take care of his health issues. I don't think she'd just say that without have something in mind. Hugs.


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## qbchottu

Jack's Dad said:


> Don't disagree with you jag but there are not a lot of people out there looking for aggressive dogs to adopt.
> 
> It's hard enough to find homes for all the non aggressive dogs.


Very true! Before my dog became too sick to rehome to just anyone, I planned on rehoming to a pet home. It was an exercise in futility. Even with a solid temperament and extensive training already invested into the dog, there wasn't one acceptable home out there for the dog. 

The pool is VERY limited for sick, reactive and aggressive dogs. I actually doubt you would find a rescue or shelter willing to adopt out a dog that has a history of aggression against children. It's a liability. Shelters and rescues are full of perfectly healthy dogs with fantastic temperaments that would flourish in companion dog families. I hate to say it, but what is their incentive to take on such a large responsibility with a sick, reactive dog? I'm wondering how the vet can say with such confidence that she can find a perfect home that is able to manage a reactive dog with medical problems.


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## Jag

I agree, but the OP said the vet could help find placement. To me, this meant a full disclosure of the dog's issues. Personally, I'd put the dog down, but I don't know how severe the issues are. I'm assuming, here, that the vet is aware of the dog's aggression issues and had some people in mind. If not, then I would say to put the dog down. It IS very hard to find someone that would take on that kind of liability, but there are some. If the vet's just shooting in the dark, so to speak, then PTS sooner rather than later.


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## Jack's Dad

Jag said:


> I agree, but the OP said the vet could help find placement. To me, this meant a full disclosure of the dog's issues. Personally, I'd put the dog down, but I don't know how severe the issues are. I'm assuming, here, that the vet is aware of the dog's aggression issues and had some people in mind. If not, then I would say to put the dog down. It IS very hard to find someone that would take on that kind of liability, but there are some. If the vet's just shooting in the dark, so to speak, then PTS sooner rather than later.


If the vet really has people, that's great. I know my vets office (which is fairly good size) does not have a list of such people. 

I found that statement from the vet kind of weird.

Maybe I'm too cynical. To the Op my best wishes on a tough decision.


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## qbchottu

Jack's Dad said:


> I found that statement from the vet kind of weird.
> 
> Maybe I'm too cynical. To the Op my best wishes on a tough decision.


100% agree. It's hard enough finding homes for healthy dogs, I am VERY surprised the vet said she can rehome such a tough case. I question the ethics of saying something like this to someone in turmoil over their dog. If she for certain has another home lined up, then that's great and she's really helping you out. But how odd to say with certainty she can rehome this dog right off the bat.


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## llombardo

I once had a vet tell me my dog died...once I told them that I would like to see the body and also wanted the ashes. I was put on hold for a few minutes, then told my dog was alive but wanted as a pet for a fireman and he was willing to pay all the medical expenses. I immediately picked up mydog, then went home and stopped payment on the check. They charged me 600 for hookworms??? Point being that all vets can't be trusted.


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## Good_Karma

Wow, I am surprised that the vet said she was confident that she could find a home for a dog who has both medical and temperament issues. Hip surgery is not cheap, it cost us $4000 for a hip replacement on Rosa. And behavioral training is also not cheap. We spent $90 per hour for someone to work with us on Niko's behavioral problems. For a lot of hours, since changes never come fast when there is a temperament problem.

I am also a little skeptical that the hip pain is being blamed on the reactivity/aggression. I don't have a ton of dog experience, but I know that my own dog who has severe HD in both hips as well as moderate elbow dysplasia, never once displayed ANY kind of aggression or fear reactivity with people, be they strangers or friends. I think that pain could certainly exacerbate a temperament flaw, but I would not expect the reactivity to magically disappear even if the hip problem were solved.

I don't know what to tell you, it would take a very kind-hearted and dedicated dog lover to be willing to take this poor dog off your hands. I hope that if you do find someone, you make sure you let them know how much you appreciate them taking on so much. Good luck!


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## Lilie

Jack's Dad said:


> If the vet really has people, that's great. I know my vets office (which is fairly good size) does not have a list of such people.


My past two mini doxie's and a JRT have come from clinic surrenders for behavioral problems. My BF is a vet tech. that works at the clinic.


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## selzer

We are talking about nipping and growling. If the dog is in serious pain, then yes, nipping and snapping and growling COULD be the issue with this dog. 

So far, I have not heard of any biting? Has this dog bitten a child? 

How old is your niece that he is growling at. What are the circumstances. Before we suggest euthanasia for aggression, let's figure out what we are dealing with. 

In a shelter this dog would be put down most likely for the hips issue, or for the aggressiveness. Why? Because there are a lot of pups whose only issue is having lived too many days at the county's expense, to waste resources on a dog that is not a good candidate for adoption. It makes sense. Less liability too. And the more shelter dogs that have high vet bills, or aggressive incidents, the worse the reputation of shelter/rescue dogs, and the less chance for any to gain a forever home. 

But, this is a dog that the OP has owned and loved for almost a year now. If she can find it a good home, that is great. But if not, let's look at how much aggressiveness there is, and whether there are any options when it comes to getting the dog the care he needs. 

Again, the skin-kids are first, even the niece so long as the niece isn't doing something that is scary or possibly painful to the dog. And it is totally understandable if the OP finds she must put the dog down.


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## Jack's Dad

jennifernikki said:


> Long story short. We rescued Finley last December, he was almost 5 months old. From the beginning, he had agression issues w/ my kids (ages 2, 5 & 6), expecially my 5 yr old. He actually nipped the younger two. I brought him to our local kennal club for some training & he snapped at the trainer. Thats when she suggested behavioral training. So i went to one session & Finley snapped at him, when the trainer was trying to show him dominace. His aggression is so bad, we can't have anyone over to our house. My niece was babysitting last week. He's met her plenty of times & out of nowhere he was vicisouly growling, showing his teeth & barking at her. The list goes on./QUOTE]
> 
> Here ya go selzer:


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## JakodaCD OA

I would take the vet up on their offer. One of the techs at my vets, is known for taking in gsd's just like this, she gets a huge discount on vet care, surgeries, she lives alone, and takes on hard cases like this because she loves gsd's. This very well could be the type of situation your vet is considering.

So yes, I would take that offer especially if you can't afford to treat what could be a big surgical expense..


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## billsharp

If you find someone who has the financial means to fix the dog's hips, in the hopes that that will help his aggression, and they are willing to take the dog, then you should surrender the dog to them. Ethically, you should not turn the dog over to anyone else except a fully qualified GSD rescue and only with full disclosure about his problems.

If the above options are not possible, then you have to make a choice between your family's safety and keeping a dog who will be a liability and not an integral member of your family. That is an easy choice. You must PTS if those are your only options.

There is no shame or failure in assessing your dog as being too impaired to justify keeping him alive, and humanely putting him to sleep. There are lots of wonderful, non-aggressive, hips-ok GSDs out there that would benefit from having a caring family like yours adopt them.


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## selzer

Jack's Dad said:


> jennifernikki said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long story short. We rescued Finley last December, he was almost 5 months old. From the beginning, he had agression issues w/ my kids (ages 2, 5 & 6), expecially my 5 yr old. He actually nipped the younger two. I brought him to our local kennal club for some training & he snapped at the trainer. Thats when she suggested behavioral training. So i went to one session & Finley snapped at him, when the trainer was trying to show him dominace. His aggression is so bad, we can't have anyone over to our house. My niece was babysitting last week. He's met her plenty of times & out of nowhere he was vicisouly growling, showing his teeth & barking at her. The list goes on./QUOTE]
> 
> Here ya go selzer:
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, I have not heard of a bite yet. A few snapping incidents, growling and barking.
> 
> The nipping of the kids, well, from the beginning he had aggression issues, especially the 5 year old, he nipped them. Well I have a couple of 5 month olds right now that might nip a kid, so far they haven't, but they have me, nipped, I just have to remind them to be gentle, and they are, but a rescued pup might have had to learn that he can't herd the children, etc.
> 
> I guess I need to know what the OP's definition of a nip is, was this puppy mouthing? Was their blood or bruising. Was it on the hands, legs, or on the face/neck.
> 
> I mean, they managed the dog for the past year almost. It is now, what, 15 months old? What happened between 5 and 15 months old, are things getting better with the in-home kids or worse? The pup might be getting its adult temperament in right now, and what is going on with the niece? Was the niece yelling at the kids? Do we know?
> 
> I agree if the vet knows of someone who can manage physical and training then ask her about it, think very carefully about it. As for rescues or shelters, I don't think the pup has a chance.
> 
> If someone had the dog for 3 weeks, I would say, yeah, there are a lot of dogs out there without all the extra baggage that might be put down for nothing. But these people already have the dog as a pet, it isn't so easy to order PTS on him.
Click to expand...


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## Bear L

llombardo said:


> I once had a vet tell me my dog died...once I told them that I would like to see the body and also wanted the ashes. I was put on hold for a few minutes, then told my dog was alive but wanted as a pet for a fireman and he was willing to pay all the medical expenses. I immediately picked up mydog, then went home and stopped payment on the check. They charged me 600 for hookworms??? Point being that all vets can't be trusted.


Is that considered criminal activity? That's stealing on the dog and the money.


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## Jack's Dad

I agree that definitions can mean different things to people. A minor nip to one person could be horrible aggression to another.

I just look at this persons post as if it were an ad.

Wanted: Good home for GSD. Our dog nips at young children. We did some training but he snapped at the trainer. Tried a behaviorist but he snapped at them during the first session. Will not allow people to come to our home and if we get a baby sitter to go out he will growl and bark and show his teeth. 

If interested please call xxx-xxxx.

P.S. Has bad hip and may need surgery.


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## llombardo

Bear L said:


> Is that considered criminal activity? That's stealing on the dog and the money.


Criminal activity on their part or mine? When they called me about the check, I politely asked them what costed $600.00, they then decided the dog had parvo, but I brought her to my vet(where I worked) the same day I got her out of there..She tested completely negative for parvo. Now they didn't know what to say and I threatened to turn them in for everything...lying about the dog being dead, its illness, charging for something the dog didn't have, etc. They decided not to worry about the check and my dog was fine..after she was dewormed.


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## selzer

On their part, saying your dog was dead, and going to steal it and sell it. I would have complained to the AVMA the BBB and the local police or sherriff's department. How can you even leave your dog in anyone's care. 

Ok, I am hating. 

Need to leave this alone now for a bit.


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## Freestep

Good_Karma said:


> I think that pain could certainly exacerbate a temperament flaw, but I would not expect the reactivity to magically disappear even if the hip problem were solved.


Yes.

With all money, medical treatment, and training in the world, this dog may never be trustworthy around people and especially children. The best that can be hoped for is a VERY dog-savvy and experienced owner that can manage him, and is willing to take on the liability of owning him.

Short of that, honestly, I believe this dog should go to doggie heaven where he threatens no one and no longer hurts. I know, it's got to be devastating to even consider it... but you can't have your children in danger and you don't want to pass a problem dog on to someone else so that someone else gets hurt.

This is NOT your fault. Some dogs have been dealt a bad hand, and it isn't the dog's fault either. Please don't feel guilty, ashamed or like a failure. It happens--people wind up with dogs that are not a good fit for their family. It's happened to me before--I had a young female with the same problems as yours. Terrible dysplasia and temperament issues. After a long and heart-wrenching decision process we had her put down. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. This was near 20 years ago and it still hurts when I think about it, but I still believe it was the responsible thing to do. Placing a dog with $6000 worth of surgery that needed to be done and an iffy temperament was not possible.

If you do have someone on the line who is willing to take your dog, give him the treatment and training he needs, and live out his life in safety, you are extremely lucky because that VERY rarely happens.


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## jennifernikki

Freestep said:


> Yes.
> 
> With all money, medical treatment, and training in the world, this dog may never be trustworthy around people and especially children. The best that can be hoped for is a VERY dog-savvy and experienced owner that can manage him, and is willing to take on the liability of owning him.
> 
> Short of that, honestly, I believe this dog should go to doggie heaven where he threatens no one and no longer hurts. I know, it's got to be devastating to even consider it... but you can't have your children in danger and you don't want to pass a problem dog on to someone else so that someone else gets hurt.
> 
> This is NOT your fault. Some dogs have been dealt a bad hand, and it isn't the dog's fault either. Please don't feel guilty, ashamed or like a failure. It happens--people wind up with dogs that are not a good fit for their family. It's happened to me before--I had a young female with the same problems as yours. Terrible dysplasia and temperament issues. After a long and heart-wrenching decision process we had her put down. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. This was near 20 years ago and it still hurts when I think about it, but I still believe it was the responsible thing to do. Placing a dog with $6000 worth of surgery that needed to be done and an iffy temperament was not possible.
> 
> If you do have someone on the line who is willing to take your dog, give him the treatment and training he needs, and live out his life in safety, you are extremely lucky because that VERY rarely happens.


wow, thank you for sharing you story. I'm so sorry. After reading the replies, I suggested to my husband maybe we should consider to put him to sleep. But he doesnt have the heart. I'm going to talk to the vet tonite & get a better idea of who/what she has in mind of who will take him. My husband is the one that took him to the vet.


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## sitstay

I am blown away by so much in this vet's behavior. I can't imagine making a diagnoses of HP without any diagnostic testing, and to say that they are willing and able to rehome a dog with aggression issues?
Sheilah


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## Jack's Dad

sit said:


> I am blown away by so much in this vet's behavior. I can't imagine making a diagnoses of HP without any diagnostic testing, and to say that they are willing and able to rehome a dog with aggression issues?
> Sheilah


Yeah, there is something amiss but I don't know exactly what.


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## jennifernikki

I spoke to the vet today.My husband is the one that took him to the vet yesterday.....which was a mistake, I shouldve taken him. 
I was under the impression that she was going to be able to find a home for him. But she just gave me suggestions of what to do. So I'm totally rethinking my route here. There is no way that i can give Finley to a shelter & have him be so fearful in a cage for who knows how long. 

I may be out of my league here, but I'm going to try behavioral training with a one on one trainer she suggested. Or my other vet also suggested a training facility in Graylake, IL that she said specializes in German Shepherds.
I'm also going to get x-rays, to see exactly what is wrong. i owe it to him to try to work this out. From there, see what kind of therapy he would need. He's been in our life for 10 months, I can't just get rid of him like that. I understand that it will be very time consuming, but i will have to make that time for him & in the long run, it will hopefully benefit everyone.


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## PatchonGSD

What are you going to do about keeping him separated from your kids to keep them safe in the meantime? 

Its obvious that you love this dog, but I think you are playing with fire, and I'm afraid that a child is going to get burned.


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## jennifernikki

I never ever leave him alone w/ any of my kids. If I go downstairs or upstairs, either he comes w/ me or the kids do. It's babygate central in our house.


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## Debbieg

llombardo said:


> Now they didn't know what to say and I threatened to turn them in for everything...lying about the dog being dead, its illness, charging for something the dog didn't have, etc. They decided not to worry about the check and my dog was fine..after she was dewormed.



This is horrible! A vet that would lie and tell someone their dog was dead should not be allowed to practice every again.


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## llombardo

jennifernikki said:


> I spoke to the vet today.My husband is the one that took him to the vet yesterday.....which was a mistake, I shouldve taken him.
> I was under the impression that she was going to be able to find a home for him. But she just gave me suggestions of what to do. So I'm totally rethinking my route here. There is no way that i can give Finley to a shelter & have him be so fearful in a cage for who knows how long.
> 
> I may be out of my league here, but I'm going to try behavioral training with a one on one trainer she suggested. Or my other vet also suggested a training facility in Graylake, IL that she said specializes in German Shepherds.
> I'm also going to get x-rays, to see exactly what is wrong. i owe it to him to try to work this out. From there, see what kind of therapy he would need. He's been in our life for 10 months, I can't just get rid of him like that. I understand that it will be very time consuming, but i will have to make that time for him & in the long run, it will hopefully benefit everyone.



I think this is what you'll have to do so that you know that whatever decision you make is based on weeding things out and knowing you did what you could do. The most important thing is to keep him and the kids separated for now. I sent you a PM with a trainer that I like and either she can help you or point you in the right direction. I have been to a local GSD club(not the one you mentioned) and most of the dogs there were either DA, FA, HA....just scary and I have never gone back. My agility trainer also trains at a GSD club in the suburbs and I like her to. There are lots of options and I'm sure I can find someone that can get you going. I'm not sure if this is the right situation to put yours in now(GSD Club). I think one on one with as much positive training will benefit him. Keep us posted and Good Luck


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## GregK

jennifernikki said:


> Or my other vet also suggested a training facility in Graylake, IL that she said specializes in German Shepherds.


 
'Tops'?

First things first - get that hip problem under control. He's probably in a lot of pain which can cause him to be aggressive.


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## Good_Karma

jennifernikki said:


> I'm also going to get x-rays, to see exactly what is wrong. i owe it to him to try to work this out.


I'm glad you are doing this. This is the only way to find out for sure if he has a problem with his hips. Can you get him on a joint supplement in the meantime? I'd also consider a pain reliever/anti-inflammatory. You might be able to get an idea of how his behavior is when he's not in pain. Like I said before, I would not expect it to be a miracle cure for his temperament issues, but if you see an improvement, it's an encouraging sign.


----------



## jennifernikki

GregK said:


> 'Tops'?
> 
> First things first - get that hip problem under control. He's probably in a lot of pain which can cause him to be aggressive.


Yes, Tops. I've done a search on this forum & seems like they are very good. It's quite a hike from where I'm at, but I'm willing to travel that far if it means positive results.


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## bocron

jennifernikki said:


> So i went to one session & Finley snapped at him, when the trainer was trying to show him dominace.



I'm focused on this statement. What exactly was the "trainer" doing here?


----------



## jennifernikki

bocron said:


> I'm focused on this statement. What exactly was the "trainer" doing here?


Finley likes to lean on me, so the trainer was showing me how to correct this. He walked w/ the dog and would shove Finley w/ his knee and make Fin turnaround & face the trainer. After a few times of doing this, Finley snapped at him. The trainer was kinda creepy. So i don't know if I blame Finley for doing this to him.


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## Freestep

jennifernikki said:


> Finley likes to lean on me, so the trainer was showing me how to correct this. He walked w/ the dog and would shove Finley w/ his knee and make Fin turnaround & face the trainer. After a few times of doing this, Finley snapped at him. The trainer was kinda creepy. So i don't know if I blame Finley for doing this to him.


I'm not a trainer, behaviorist, or expert but that does sound like either dominant behavior on your dog's part, or pain. If the trainer was to "shove" him the wrong way or put pressure on a painful area, yeah, I would snap at him too. But if your dog is truly dominant, he's simply not going to accept that kind of handling from a stranger. Did you try this technique yourself, and if so, how did your dog react?


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## jennifernikki

I have tried it, but not to the extent that he did. he shoved him pretty hard. Finleys behavior is so random. Sometimes he's very submissive, and other times aggressive. I'm hoping that a professional, a real one, not like the guy I used in the past, will be able to help us.


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## Blanketback

What about the hip problems? It sounds pretty serious, if he's having trouble getting up. I'd be more inclined to get him healthy first, and then work on the behavior, because if it's related then that's a whole different story. If he's constantly in pain, and then lashing out because of it, that should be addressed.


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## Freestep

If he acts submissive at some times and dominant/aggressive at others, he sounds like a confused dog.  Just like some people, some dogs are born with wires crossed, which makes their behavior unpredictable. If you can find a good trainer or behaviorist to evaluate him, hopefully you can get some answers as to whether he can be rehabilitated... but dogs with disorders can be very difficult to manage and treat.

Have you asked your vet about Prozac or other anti-depressant drugs? If it is a brain disorder, drugs can sometimes be a big help. I have seen some pets do a total turnaround on medication, and yet others where it didn't help at all, but as a last resort it's worth looking into IMO.


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## Freestep

Blanketback said:


> What about the hip problems? It sounds pretty serious, if he's having trouble getting up. I'd be more inclined to get him healthy first, and then work on the behavior, because if it's related then that's a whole different story. If he's constantly in pain, and then lashing out because of it, that should be addressed.


Getting him on some pain meds might tell you whether his behavior is pain-related. If his attitude and behavior drastically improve when he's on pain meds, then I'd certainly think about getting surgery to relieve his pain for good... then you may not have much aggressive behavior to address.

I used to be pretty anti-drug, but just seeing the difference that appropriate medication can make to pets (and people), I've come to the conclusion that "better living through chemistry" is not just a tagline.


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## TommyB681

i agree if the trainer was knee him around the hip or rear and he has those issues i wouldnt be a happy camper either. In my personal opinion if you have the time to put all the effort in the dog then by means do it. If you dont and its a safety risk to your familiy and kids then its best to surrender him. I cant imagine how hard thats going to be because iv never had to do it. but your safety and well being is 1st priority. I hope whatever you do works out for the best


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## Blanketback

I know firsthand with my migraines, some days I could just rip someone's head off, lol. But to the gereral public, I seem unpredicatable, so I can understand if the dog has bad hips and someone knocks the wrong spot, there will be a reaction.


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## jennifernikki

were going to do xrays, which i wanted to do the other day, but didnt get done. and hopefully be able to see what the problem is. were hoping it could just be something like a few sessions on the water treadmill, but i have a feeling its not. pain meds is a good suggestion. This vet didnt mention anything like that, but my other vet that i take my cat to (I called her yesterday to get her opinion on the situation) suggested it. 
Sometimes it does seem as though he's not wired right, but maybe thats lack of training. I don't know.

I really appreciate all of the input from this forum.


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## Freestep

jennifernikki said:


> Sometimes it does seem as though he's not wired right, but maybe thats lack of training. I don't know.


How long have you had him, and where did he come from? At what age did you acquire him?


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## jennifernikki

Freestep said:


> How long have you had him, and where did he come from? At what age did you acquire him?


We got him last December, he was almost 5 months old. We got him from a rescue. Not a German Shepherd Rescue though.
I told them via email about his issues. The lady that fostered him & cared for him when he had Parvo, was actually going to keep him, but than decided to adopt him out. She just said, "Ok, good luck with him," That wasnt the answer I was looking for.


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## Blanketback

Sometimes our hunches are right. Maybe he isn't mentally sound. But going to the second vet seems like the best starting point to deal with the issues. At least you'll know where you stand, since the other vet seems a little untrustworthy.


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## llombardo

jennifernikki said:


> were going to do xrays, which i wanted to do the other day, but didnt get done. and hopefully be able to see what the problem is. were hoping it could just be something like a few sessions on the water treadmill, but i have a feeling its not. pain meds is a good suggestion. This vet didnt mention anything like that, but my other vet that i take my cat to (I called her yesterday to get her opinion on the situation) suggested it.
> Sometimes it does seem as though he's not wired right, but maybe thats lack of training. I don't know.
> 
> I really appreciate all of the input from this forum.


I'm guessing he is neutered already?


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## jennifernikki

llombardo said:


> I'm guessing he is neutered already?


Yes, we got him neutered in January.


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## selzer

Wow, if I was the OP, I would be really, really confused right now. I have heard everything from hip/back problems to euthanasia, to rehoming to meds to keeping him separated from the children to trainer/behaviorist, dominant, aggressive. This thread covers the whole ball park. 

And I am going to add to it again. 

First of all, I think you decision to get x-rays and take the dog to a behaviorist that was recommended and specializes in GSDs is sound. 

Next, that kneeing trainer needs to be kneed where it hurts to see if he is going to snap dominantly or cower submissively.

You need to look at your dog and your kids and decide whether this dog needs to be separated totally from them or not. I have heard of two "nips." I don't know how severe these nips were, or when they occurred, and what the circumstances are. Remember that barking, growling, snarling, snapping, and nipping are all ways that dogs communicate that they are uncomfortable and and don't want to bite. I mean, they can't say, "Please don't lean on my back that really hurts my hips." Everyone has great kids, and kids don't have to be Jeffrey Dahmers to cause pain to a puppy. Sometimes they fall on them, sometimes they lean on them, sometimes their overatures to hug the dog might make the dog afraid that they will or may hurt them. 

I guess it is significant to understand the nips, was the dog herding the children, did they happen when the kids were running or screaming near the dog? Was he excited and in play mode? Or was he trying to be the fun police? Was it on the legs, or was it on the hands or arms. or was it on the chest/body, or was it on the neck/face? You said from the start, did he nip in the beginning when he was 5 or 6 months old, or has he been nipping now? Did the nip break the skin, cause a bruise? Is the nipping to your children getting worse or has it pretty much settled down with your own kids?

Who knows why he is suddenly growling at an older niece. Were you present? If you were can you describe the incident. If not, please crate the dog when anyone comes to babysit your kids. 

Your pup is what? 15 months old? He is a young dog with a lot of energy that may not be able to release that energy because of a medical condition. He is in transition between puppy stage and adult stage, and he is trying to figure out stuff. 

The pup may have wires crossed. He also may just be an adolescent pup who lacks some training, socialization, leadership, and has some underlying pain issues. 

I hope that you can figure this all out. If he does have hip dysplasia, there are great surgeries that have good prognosis for an excellent life after the surgery. It is not a death sentence. While he is recovering, putting in place some leadership changes might make all the difference in the world for this pup.


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## Freestep

jennifernikki said:


> We got him last December, he was almost 5 months old. We got him from a rescue. Not a German Shepherd Rescue though.
> I told them via email about his issues. The lady that fostered him & cared for him when he had Parvo, was actually going to keep him, but than decided to adopt him out. She just said, "Ok, good luck with him," That wasnt the answer I was looking for.


So he is roughly 15 months old now... was there any information about the first 5 months of his life? Under what circumstances did he come into rescue, and how long had he been there? Did you get any info from the fosterer? It sounds almost like the fosterer wanted to dump him...

I have heard that dogs can have brain damage from Parvo. I honestly don't know if it's true, but I used to groom a GSD that had parvo as a puppy, and she was very strange. She was always very stiff, almost like she was partially paralyzed, very nervous, and drooled a steady stream. Her owner said that was how she'd always been, ever since she had Parvo as a pup. She wasn't aggressive, though--you could do anything with her, it seemed like she was shut down and half-paralyzed. Just weird, like she wasn't all "there".

So, I don't know if parvo could have had anything to do with your dog's case. This might just confuse you more.  Sorry, I know it's confusing and difficult enough right now, but that's just something that occurred to me...


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## jennifernikki

i agree totally that the so called trainer should be shoved where it hurts. 
Half the session, he had his arms around me, around my waist, trying to hold my hand. it was very disturbing. 

Regarding the nipping situation. The 1st nip happened when we had him about 2 months. My youngest was 1 at the time. Finley was laying down sleeping & she crawled over to him & reached his face to pet. he didnt even do a warning growl, just went right for the head & nipped her. It did break the skin slightly. But from the way he sounded when he bit her, i though for sure there was going to be more damage. That was my lesson to never leave him alone w/ them. omg, that was the scariest moment of my life.

The 2nd nip was toward my middle, she was 4 at the time. My husband had the kids & dog outside. i was inside. Finley was tied on the leash to the railing out front, which i did not know until after the situation. My 4yr old, went over by him & kept hugging him around the neck. Finally he had enough & nipped her in the head. No break of the skin. She is the one that Finley grumbles at. She is always bothering him. Hugging him, petting him, trying to "train him", etc. She is still used to my beloved Max, that absolutely adored my kids. We are constantly telling her to back off him. 

Regarding the situation when my neice was babysitting him. I wasnt home. She said every time she would pick up my youngest, he would growl at her. Than for no apparent reason after that, he just started barking at her, showing his teeth. She finally put him in his cage for the rest of the night. very strange.

Yes, all of this is extremely confusing. I made the appt w/ a behavior specialist for Tuesday. So we'll see what she says.


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## Good_Karma

The leaning thing, it's not dominance. Both my dogs lean on me (even more so when they are nervous) particularly Rosa, who would climb up into my arms if she could physically do it. Instead she has to make do with leaning on me. She does it because she is scared, and being in physical contact with me soothes her and gives her a little more confidence. 

If you have an underconfident dog (which would explain the reactivity) then I am not all that shocked that he snapped at the trainer who tried to physically move him away from you. Your dog reminds me a lot of my male, who has never snapped at anyone but that's only because we are very careful about how he is treated and how we let other people approach him.


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## mebully21

get a new vet to sedate him and take xrays.. this way you get a good reading from the xrays. 2nd, if a child is pestering a puppy and hugging/grabbing/squishing the pup and the pup gives a warning nip its the parents job to keep the child separate from the pup. since your child constantly harassed him your dog feels that since you didnt reprimand the child its now his job to do(the dogs job).

as far as waking up a sleeping puppy- some dogs startle more, and if he had health problems from day one that didnt help either.

honestly i wouldnt trust your vet- get a new one for xrays to see what can be done IF there is anything wrong, and also have the dog tested for lyme disease too just to rule it out, and bloodwork on thyroid as well.. its very possible there is nothing wrong with the dog he just doesnt like small kids grabbing/hugging him and at 15 months old he is in the teenage stage of testing everyone.

as far as the neice, something is not quite right... there is probably more going on then the neice is saying, its very possible the neice did something bad to the dog ... its possible she reprimanded the dog for growling at her and it wasnt done in a nice way so now the dog has a problem with her too... its just a possiblity.. normally dogs dont just growl at someone picking up a child then bark at them... 

if a trainer whipped me around and manhandled me i would crack him across the face... he was way too rough with your dog and i honestly dont fault the dog for what he did to the trainer, but thats just me.


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## selzer

I really don't know a lot about aggression, but I think your pup can be worked with. It sounds like you are committed to him. He has some behavior issues, few and far between it sounds like, but still nipping in the head is scary. 

Yes, it sounds like some time has passed since both of these incidents. Maybe you are over the worst of it, but you really can't take that chance. I think if your dog wanted to hurt your kids, there would be stitches. A dog might nip a baby if it is crawling on it, and it has bad hips. 

Most bites are to family members, and most bites are children around the age of five years old. Why this is, well, some say it is because children are at the right height to stare right into the dog's eyes. I don't know if I believe this. I wonder if it has something to do with babies losing their baby license. The thing is, the dog is not your forth kid, it is not some furry step-kid. It cannot put another of your kids in its place. But I really don't know if that is what is happening there. 

On the other hand, each of these incidents seem to have some build up to them. The child climbed on the dog, the girl was fussing and hugging etc -- you have told her to back off of him, so this wasn't a totally freaky out of the blue aggressive attack. I don't think any of them were attacks. I guess I am thinking they were more like communication between the dog and kids, and I think that can be improved on by working with the behaviorist, managing pain, managing the environment so that the baby does not crawl on him, etc. 

I really don't understand the niece thing at all. (Not that I understand much.) He has met her on many occasions? Been fine with her? And suddenly he starts growling at her when she picks up the youngest kid? Was the kid crying? On the one had you had a young dog growling and snarling, on the other hand you have a dog that is willing to be crated by the person it is growling and snarling at. 

What is up with that? 

I understand that having a dog with a low threshold for physically protecting himself is a liability and your kids come first. It is your decision, and no one should know you for it. I don't think a dog with weak nerves should just be put down, even if they are reactive, but everyone's situation is different, and a dog with weak nerves living in the house with three little kids, can be a different story. As for wires crossed, I usually think of that being something like rage syndrome which might be related to epilepsy, where out of the blue the dog just goes into full attack mode -- totally unpredictable. 

I think we can all agree that this dog has not gone to full attack mode even once. Might the dog have escalated when the baby was crawling on him, beyond the nip? I don't know. I don't know why the dog nipped and did not fully bite if he was going to attack the baby. If the baby cried and flailed after the nip, and no one was there to step in, I don't know what the dog would have done. 

It is good that you are thinking all these incidents through. Write them down. Take them with you, or send them in advance to the trainer/behaviorist that you are going to work with. Be sure that you emphasize that you are being as specific and honest about the extent of each incident to get the best analysis for the dog. I think some people tend to minimize or maximize what they tell trainers because it seems like some trainers translate "he has started barking and lunging at other dogs" to "he has bitten three other dogs already and is snarling at children now."


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## jennifernikki

Thank you for your words of advice. Thats a great idea to write everything down. I know i might be nervous next week & forget to mention an incident.

He is very aggressive w/ strangers in our house, but if we're outside the house, on walks or petstore, he pretty much ignores them. For some reason, he seems to have a problem w/ young boys too. We had a block party & he was viciously barking at our friends 10yr old son. Finley was in his cage, but oh my goodness, i was scared he was going to bust through the wires. He reacted the same way w/ my 10 yr old nephew at a bday party in march & at Pet Smart training, someone brought their young son & Finley would always bark at him. He's very strange.


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## Jack's Dad

Most families want a family dog. A dog they can relax around and not have to keep separate from their children. 

OP it's your choice and your children. I hope it all turns out ok.


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## selzer

My mother tells of a GSD they had when she was a kid. The dog was named King. King was great with babies, but as soon as they were old enough to wear long pants, he hated them, boys only. I get the impression they did not have the dog all along.


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## PatchonGSD

> My youngest was 1 at the time. Finley was laying down sleeping & she crawled over to him & reached his face to pet. he didnt even do a warning growl, just went right for the head & nipped her. It did break the skin slightly. But from the way he sounded when he bit her, i though for sure there was going to be more damage. That was my lesson to never leave him alone w/ them. omg, that was the scariest moment of my life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2nd nip was toward my middle, she was 4 at the time. My husband had the kids & dog outside. i was inside. Finley was tied on the leash to the railing out front, which i did not know until after the situation. My 4yr old, went over by him & kept hugging him around the neck. Finally he had enough & nipped her in the head. No break of the skin. She is the one that Finley grumbles at. She is always bothering him. Hugging him, petting him, trying to "train him", etc. She is still used to my beloved Max, that absolutely adored my kids. We are constantly telling her to back off him.
Click to expand...

I am dumbfounded that you have kept this dog this long. This behavior is inexcusable, and you are repeatedly putting your kids and others at risk. I'm sure your kids dont appreciate being bitten. 



> I never ever leave him alone w/ any of my kids. If I go downstairs or upstairs, either he comes w/ me or the kids do. It's babygate central in our house.


According to the incidents you described above, the dog and the kids should not even be in the same room together.


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## jennifernikki

PatchonGSD said:


> I am dumbfounded that you have kept this dog this long. This behavior is inexcusable, and you are repeatedly putting your kids and others at risk. I'm sure your kids dont appreciate being bitten.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the incidents you described above, the dog and the kids should not even be in the same room together.




I came on this site to get advice, not to be judged. I love this dog & I can't just give him up. It was my responsibility when I rescued him to take on all challenges. Yes, I love my kids much more & I believe I am doing my best to keep them separated. No, this isnt the way a family dog should be. But I'm hoping w/ the right training & treatment, maybe this dog can be turned around. If not, I know I did my best & I won't live w/ any regrets.

I am so grateful for all the responses i've received. I will take it all in & go from there. I will keep you all updated in whatever comes our way.


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## selzer

PatchonGSD said:


> I am dumbfounded that you have kept this dog this long. This behavior is inexcusable, and you are repeatedly putting your kids and others at risk. I'm sure your kids dont appreciate being bitten.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the incidents you described above, the dog and the kids should not even be in the same room together.


I disagree completely. We have Cujo and he is like a baby-whisperer, but he has snapped a toddler who jumped on him and at one of my nieces when she landed on him. He did this when he was about 2, not 6-7 months old like this puppy. And he is seven now and he has yet to eat any babies. 

The dog is only a dog, and you have to ensure the children are safe, yes, but my mom started socializing Cujo to babies when he was two. Before that he didn't have any babies to practice on. He once held the baby down with his huge paw after knocking her down. 

Still Mom put up a pet yard -- for the kids to be safe in, and the dog learned and the kids learned how to act around each other. Now that Cujo is 7, he has two more baby girls to be careful around, and he is perfect with them. 

I think that sometimes you just have to get past the young, unsocialized dog stage. 

This dog hasn't hurt the kids yet, not seriously, and with a little management, he probably never will. It sounds like there have been months and months with no incidents at all.

What is more concerning is when these little ones get a little bigger and have neighborhood kids going in and out, running and screaming.


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## doggiedad

you said in your post you don't have the money for medical
treatments or training. what do you think you should do?


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## PatchonGSD

jennifernikki said:


> I came on this site to get advice, not to be judged. I love this dog & I can't just give him up. It was my responsibility when I rescued him to take on all challenges. Yes, I love my kids much more & I believe I am doing my best to keep them separated. No, this isnt the way a family dog should be. But I'm hoping w/ the right training & treatment, maybe this dog can be turned around. If not, I know I did my best & I won't live w/ any regrets.
> 
> I am so grateful for all the responses i've received. I will take it all in & go from there. I will keep you all updated in whatever comes our way.


You came to a public forum and I gave my opinion. 



selzer said:


> I disagree completely. We have Cujo and he is like a baby-whisperer, but he has snapped a toddler who jumped on him and at one of my nieces when she landed on him. He did this when he was about 2, not 6-7 months old like this puppy. And he is seven now and he has yet to eat any babies.


I can understand a dog snapping if he was hurt. But with this dog, all the one year old did to provoke a bite that broke the skin was reach out to touch him.
IMO that is not at all the same as the situation you described. 

As JacksDad said though, OP, it your choice and your children. :shrug:


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## vom Eisenherz

I work in the Orland Park area and am often in Chicago. Depending on where you are, I would be willing to come by and look at him and see him interact and give you some ideas. I have worked with some "last straw" dogs with good success
and I can at least give you an outside opinion. Tops is a great idea, if you have the money. They're a good group, nice people, knowledgeable, and they send puppy buyers my way when I have them, so I am absolutely not trying to discourage you from taking him there! I am merely offering a free opinion from someone who has dealt with this before and cares about both dogs and kids. I have a 3yr old boy and have worked with a couple dogs who he couldn't go anywhere near the entire time they were in my home. I can at least tell you if you're spinning your wheels and being reckless or if you just need some guidance and your pup needs an attitude adjustment. 

This doesn't sit right with me at all. There is something about that vet I don't trust one bit, provided we're hearing the full story. I'm worried about this dog.


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## Jack's Dad

vom Eisenherz said:


> I work in the Orland Park area and am often in Chicago. Depending on where you are, I would be willing to come by and look at him and see him interact and give you some ideas. I have worked with some "last straw" dogs with good success
> and I can at least give you an outside opinion. Tops is a great idea, if you have the money. They're a good group, nice people, knowledgeable, and they send puppy buyers my way when I have them, so I am absolutely not trying to discourage you from taking him there! I am merely offering a free opinion from someone who has dealt with this before and cares about both dogs and kids. I have a 3yr old boy and have worked with a couple dogs who he couldn't go anywhere near the entire time they were in my home. I can at least tell you if you're spinning your wheels and being reckless or if you just need some guidance and your pup needs an attitude adjustment.
> 
> This doesn't sit right with me at all. There is something about that vet I don't trust one bit, provided we're hearing the full story. I'm worried about this dog.


To the Op. Please take her up on her offer.


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## selzer

jennifernikki said:


> i agree totally that the so called trainer should be shoved where it hurts.
> Half the session, he had his arms around me, around my waist, trying to hold my hand. it was very disturbing.
> 
> *Regarding the nipping situation. The 1st nip happened when we had him about 2 months. My youngest was 1 at the time. Finley was laying down sleeping & she crawled over to him & reached his face to pet. he didnt even do a warning growl, just went right for the head & nipped her. It did break the skin slightly*. But from the way he sounded when he bit her, i though for sure there was going to be more damage. That was my lesson to never leave him alone w/ them. omg, that was the scariest moment of my life.
> 
> The 2nd nip was toward my middle, she was 4 at the time. My husband had the kids & dog outside. i was inside. Finley was tied on the leash to the railing out front, which i did not know until after the situation. My 4yr old, went over by him & kept hugging him around the neck. Finally he had enough & nipped her in the head. No break of the skin. She is the one that Finley grumbles at. She is always bothering him. Hugging him, petting him, trying to "train him", etc. She is still used to my beloved Max, that absolutely adored my kids. We are constantly telling her to back off him.
> 
> Regarding the situation when my neice was babysitting him. I wasnt home. She said every time she would pick up my youngest, he would growl at her. Than for no apparent reason after that, he just started barking at her, showing his teeth. She finally put him in his cage for the rest of the night. very strange.
> 
> Yes, all of this is extremely confusing. I made the appt w/ a behavior specialist for Tuesday. So we'll see what she says.


Talk about reading comprehension. I read this that the baby crawled over him to his head, rather than over to his head. Still the pup was about 7 months old and in the past 8 months there have not been any other incidents where the pup broke the skin. There was an incident with the four year old being nipped without breaking the skin. 

While I don't like the idea of dogs punishing children, when a GSD bites and does not break the skin, or slightly breaks the skin, to me that indicates some serious bite-inhibition going on. Because it would be a whole lot easier for this dog to make deep puncture wounds. 

On the bite scale these are bites you could definitely work with. 

I also give the OP credit for not just dropping the dog off at the nearest shelter when he proved that he was a bit unsteady with her kids, but my guess is that she realized he was a puppy and and a rescued-dog and she wanted to try and deal with it. 

We might say, she should have been asking these questions 8 months ago, but when you have 3 kids, age six and under, time flies and the most pressing things are not always the pup's training. 

I hope this does work out for this pup. Yes he is 15 months old now, but he is a youngster.


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## jennifernikki

We might say, she should have been asking these questions 8 months ago, but when you have 3 kids, age six and under, time flies and the most pressing things are not always the pup's training. 

I hope this does work out for this pup. Yes he is 15 months old now, but he is a youngster.[/QUOTE]

I agree w/ you 100%. We totally dropped the ball here. I kept saying, we have to get in contact w/ another trainer, and like you said, things just got busy.


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## jennifernikki

vom Eisenherz said:


> I work in the Orland Park area and am often in Chicago. Depending on where you are, I would be willing to come by and look at him and see him interact and give you some ideas.
> 
> vom Eisenherz---I sent you a PM


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## Freestep

I've offered suggestions on how to deal with the aggression, possible courses of action/treatment, and words of support, as I can imagine what the OP is going through.

However, I think I do have to make my position clear. Personally--and this is just me--if my dog "nipped" a 1 year old child ON THE HEAD, broke the skin, and all for doing nothing more than crawling over to him to pet him? That would be the last thing that dog ever did. There wouldn't have been a second "nip", whether the dog was showing bite inhibition or not. I can't imagine how traumatic that must have been for the baby. I hope that he doesn't remember it. I'm not judging the OP, just speaking my own mind based on my own thoughts, feelings, and experience.

Maybe I am hard-hearted, or jaded, or whatever, but I would not keep such a dog and I would not put him into rescue or try to rehome him either. It is way too much liability, and if he seriously hurt a child, or caused a child to have a fear of dogs for the rest of his life, that is a guilt I would sruggle with for the rest of my life.

To me, children are more important than dogs. And I say that as a person who loves animals and doesn't like children very much. Dogs are not an endangered species and there are SO many nice, non-biting dogs out there needing homes, that to me it does a disservice to spend resources on a nasty, aggressive dog that bites children and terrorizes visitors.

That is my personal feeling. I understand that the OP might feel differently, so I'm offering suggestions that may keep the dog alive and in the household. Part of me feels it's dangerous to suggest any course of action other than euthanasia, because if one of the OP's kids gets seriously hurt and I was one of the people who suggested ways in which to keep him, I will feel terribly guilty about it.

I just wanted to get that out there. I know it's terribly confusing and difficult for the OP. I've been there, and it's agonizing. But if she chooses euthanasia, I don't want her to feel guilty about it.

If not euthanasia, I would get a behaviorist on board ASAP, get the dog on painkillers and antidepressants, and keep him separated from the children at ALL times. I know how hard this would be and how there is the potential for accidents to happen, so I feel a great deal of trepidation over it. I'm sure the OP does, too.


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## Liesje

My advice would be to take Jen up on her offer. Without actually observing the dog, the kids, etc I can't really say the dog should be euthanized or the dog can be dealt with.


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## PatchonGSD

Freestep said:


> *However, I think I do have to make my position clear. Personally--and this is just me--if my dog "nipped" a 1 year old child ON THE HEAD, broke the skin, and all for doing nothing more than crawling over to him to pet him? That would be the last thing that dog ever did. There wouldn't have been a second "nip", whether the dog was showing bite inhibition or not. I can't imagine how traumatic that must have been for the baby. I hope that he doesn't remember it. I'm not judging the OP, just speaking my own mind based on my own thoughts, feelings, and experience.
> 
> Maybe I am hard-hearted, or jaded, or whatever, but I would not keep such a dog and I would not put him into rescue or try to rehome him either. It is way too much liability, and if he seriously hurt a child, or caused a child to have a fear of dogs for the rest of his life, that is a guilt I would struggle with for the rest of my life.*


AMEN. I could not agree more.


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## cliffson1

I would let Jen look at your dog also if it can be done sooner rather later.


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## selzer

Do we give out little notches on e the belt when we get another pup euthanized on this board? 

If you raise a puppy from 8 weeks old properly with babies and children, and at seven months old, this pup decides to nip the 1 year old that he lives with in the head hard enough to draw blood, than I would understand this demand for blood, probably. This pup we have no clue about from 8 weeks to 5 months when people generally have the puppy learning how to act around the small children and babies. 

This dog has been living in the household for 10 months, and there have been two incidents, one a few months after settling in, and possibly a startle-response as the pup was sleeping. One other rather minor incident with the kids.

The owners are taking these incidents seriously, and getting professional help. They are also looking for physical issues that might make ANY dog's fuse shorter. 

I don't think this dog has its wires crossed at all. I think there would be a LOT more incidents if that were the case in 10 months. But because I do not _know_ that, I am encouraged by the fact that this person is going to go and get some other opinions on the dog. 

I know we all like to think that dogs are just natural baby sitters. They are not all. Some actually need to be socialized to babies and taught to respect the baby. If a dog is not taught to respect a baby-human we should just kill it if it ever doesn't act how we think is appropriate? And we are dog-people here? 

Maybe it is a fact that some of us manage, train, and demand behavior from our dogs that other people just don't for some reason. Perhaps it is not natural to them to convey to the dog that the baby is unassailable. I mean it is not something that is probably even conscious on the human's part. Maybe with different beginnings, your four-foooted-friends would not have fared as well as they are -- pat yourselves on the backs. 

How can we be certain that it is all on the dog, I guess is what I am saying. Maybe you have raised 7 dogs and have never had any one of them bother your babies or small children, because from the git-go, your body language and bearing and management screamed to the dog that the baby was not to be interfered with at any cost.

And maybe a behaviorist/trainer can help these people manage their rescued pup so that he can get some of what your dogs have, a clear understanding of what he can and cannot do.


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## vom Eisenherz

I am not fond of the behavior toward kids, myself. I'm pretty hard on dogs when it comes to that as far as what is acceptable temperament and what isn't. HOWEVER, I have seen SO MANY misunderstood scenarios where the dog got the short end of the stick, I just feel like I'd like to see the dog and keep an open mind since it's a life we're talking about, here. 

I was told of a dog who was "nipping" at the kids in the yard when they were running and playing. The dog was going to be pts before this behavior escalated. Someone suggested someone I know go look at the dog and he saw the behavior. When the kids would start to run out of the yard, the dog would grab at them. He asked the owner "Do you have an invisible fence?" to which the owner replied "yes" and had a real "lightbulb" moment.  The dog was certainly no danger to the children and was only trying to protect them from what he thought would happen to them, too, if they left the yard. 

Do I think that's what's going on here? Not likely. BUT- benefit of the doubt is always in order when there's a life at stake, imho. And it's no big deal for me to take a few hours and give my .02.


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## jennifernikki

I made an appt for tomorrow morning for an evaluation at Tops in Grayslake. And an appt on Saturday for xrays w/ my vet that I use for my cat, the one that recommended Tops. Not the one from Monday.
I'm really hoping to get some sort of answers on whats going on w/ his backend. I know some people, probably most, think I'm crazy for giving this dog a chance. I just need to know that i've tried everything so i don't live w/ any guilt. 
I will keep you updated.


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## PatchonGSD

> Do we give out little notches on e the belt when we get another pup euthanized on this board?


I dont think anyone is trying to get this dog euthinized. All it takes is one good bite or "nip" for a child to lose an eye or for his face to be scarred.....and that child will have to live with that for life. Yes, something like that could happen during play, but if the OP's description of these events is even close to being accurate, the dog _wasnt _playing. 

Hopefully she is able to take advantage of the help she has been offered, and hopefully life doesnt get so busy that a child gets bit again.


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## selzer

PatchonGSD said:


> I dont think anyone is trying to get this dog euthinized. All it takes is one good bite or "nip" for a child to lose an eye or for his face to be scarred.....and that child will have to live with that for life. Yes, something like that could happen during play, but if the OP's description of these events is even close to being accurate, the dog _wasnt _playing.
> 
> Hopefully she is able to take advantage of the help she has been offered, and hopefully life doesnt get so busy that a child gets bit again.



The vet did not offer to take the pup off her hands. She really does not have someone just dying for the opportunity to own a 15 month old dog that isn't good with babies, small children, visitors to the home, and in need of a hip surgery. 

There isn't a line of people just waiting to take this kind of dog on. 

If we encourage this person to get rid of her dog, that is what you are encouraging her to do. Euthanization.

To the OP: If you do euthanize your dog, you will feel guilty about it. There is just no way around that. I understand trying everything first. But, even if you have 5 excellent behaviorists telling you the same thing, you will still feel guilty putting your dog down. 

If your child does get seriously injured by your dog, you will feel devastated. There is no way around that either, really. I mean, you can wait until your youngest is eight or ten years old to get a dog. But the fact of the matter is that ANY dog you have MIGHT bite your kid. This dog might. Your next dog might do MORE damage on their first offense. It is so hard to be certain of anything. 

I guess you see the dog every day, and you witnessed the behaviors. You have to make a decision. And this is exactly why a LOT of rescues will not adopt to people with small children. Because one day you wake up and realize that no matter how careful you are, there are still risks when it comes to having children and pets. 

On the other hand, most of us have lived in the house with children and pets. When my sister was just walking, we had a shnauzer, and it got hit by a truck -- my fault I was 11. I took it with me on my paper route without a lead, and it was hit by a pick up truck. The man was stopped as I hurdled into the ditch and carried the dog out. He drove us home. 

After a few weeks, yes we took him to the vet, nothing broken, but the dog bit the baby. Weird. But he bit the baby and made her bleed. She was over by his food dish, and it was really, odd, and we watched closely, about a week later, the dog bit the baby again. Nothing going on, he just flat out nailed her. My folks never would tell me what they did with that dog. They figure it got its brain messed up in the accident. 

My brother has a dachsund/beagle cross. When his son was about 2, the dog bit him in the face and made him bleed. They do not know what Michael was doing to make the dog bite him. When the kid was about 8, he had huge marks on his face again. The dog bit him again. Our family was shocked that they kept the dog. I think for a while, and maybe still, the mail is not delivered at their home because of that dog. Their house was robbed, and they kicked the dog. Far as I know, Tiger is still alive and well, and the boy is 16 and does not have any dog-phobias or anything from it.


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## jennifernikki

PatchonGSD said:


> I dont think anyone is trying to get this dog euthinized. All it takes is one good bite or "nip" for a child to lose an eye or for his face to be scarred.....and that child will have to live with that for life. Yes, something like that could happen during play, but if the OP's description of these events is even close to being accurate, the dog _wasnt _playing.
> 
> Hopefully she is able to take advantage of the help she has been offered, and hopefully life doesnt get so busy that a child gets bit again.



Ww, you just take every opportunity to insult me. I must say I'm amazed by some of the responses. How quick it seems that people would give up a dog. I'm sure I'll get heat for this but, everyone else is speaking their mind. Maybe thats why they are so many dogs in shelters & rescues, etc. People don't take the time to fix the problem. My kids were pestering the dog & he felt trapped, so he nipped at them. I'm the one at fault there. I shouldve had a better eye on the kids. If someone was crawling all over you, wouldnt you snap, I know I would.
My main problem w/ him is the way he acts toward strangers entering my house. He's very territorial & it stinks that I can't have anyone in the house.

My kids are loud, active kids, as they should be. They're kids. They run around the house, run past him, fast. And he's never bit them or been aggressive toward them. He's only nipped those two times, when they invaded his space. 
It's obvious that he has medical & behavioral issues going on. I'm not "going to let life get too busy that a child get bit again." Obviously I'm taking action, or otherwise, I wouldnt be asking advice on this forum, or booking appointments for tomorrow & Saturday.


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## llombardo

jennifernikki said:


> Ww, you just take every opportunity to insult me. I must say I'm amazed by some of the responses. How quick it seems that people would give up a dog. I'm sure I'll get heat for this but, everyone else is speaking their mind. Maybe thats why they are so many dogs in shelters & rescues, etc. People don't take the time to fix the problem. My kids were pestering the dog & he felt trapped, so he nipped at them. I'm the one at fault there. I shouldve had a better eye on the kids. If someone was crawling all over you, wouldnt you snap, I know I would.
> My main problem w/ him is the way he acts toward strangers entering my house. He's very territorial & it stinks that I can't have anyone in the house.
> 
> My kids are loud, active kids, as they should be. They're kids. They run around the house, run past him, fast. And he's never bit them or been aggressive toward them. He's only nipped those two times, when they invaded his space.
> It's obvious that he has medical & behavioral issues going on. I'm not "going to let life get too busy that a child get bit again." Obviously I'm taking action, or otherwise, I wouldnt be asking advice on this forum, or booking appointments for tomorrow & Saturday.



I like both of you guys and I give both of you credit for rescuing your dogs. Rescues are not always easy to deal with...most of the time that is why they are given up. I don't think anyone here wants a child to get hurt. I don't want to see either of you fighting with each other. We have one who is doing everything they can to make things right, credit is due. I'm positive that the dog would be gone if it was a big threat. We have another one that got lucky and has a dog that loves his human brother, what would you do if he snapped at your child? Would you give him up or try to figure out the situation? I don't see you giving up your dog without doing everything in your power to help him. If all these options fail, we go to plan B. Now everyone needs to get along:hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs::hugs:


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## PatchonGSD

> Ww, you just take every opportunity to insult me.


No, I have not taken every opportunity to insult you. Again, you did come to a public forum, and I have stated nothing that is untrue or that you haven't said yourself.



> Maybe thats why they are so many dogs in shelters & rescues, etc. People don't take the time to fix the problem.


The problem for the GSD anyway is that there are so many BYB breeders producing unstable, unhealthy dogs that the average dog owner is not equipped to handle-hence the situation you are in.


> If someone was crawling all over you, wouldnt you snap, I know I would.


 *NO.* Any family dog should be tolerant of children. Particularly the German Shepherd. The one year old only reached out to touch him, and wasnt crawling all over him, according to you. 


Good luck to you.


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## jennifernikki

I'm just very stressed. I shouldnt have wrote my last post. I'm done. I'll keep things updated for those who are interested in knowing.


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## llombardo

jennifernikki said:


> I'm just very stressed. I shouldnt have wrote my last post. I'm done. I'll keep things updated for those who are interested in knowing.


Your doing the right things. Take a deep breath and get everything done, its the only way that you will be able relax. Why don't you post some pictures of your pup? I'd like to see the dog that is causing such a ruckus


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## GregK

jennifernikki said:


> I made an appt for tomorrow morning for an evaluation at Tops in Grayslake. And an appt on Saturday for xrays w/ my vet that I use for my cat, the one that recommended Tops. Not the one from Monday.
> I'm really hoping to get some sort of answers on whats going on w/ his backend. I know some people, probably most, think I'm crazy for giving this dog a chance. I just need to know that i've tried everything so i don't live w/ any guilt.
> I will keep you updated.


Nope, not crazy at all. Looking forward to the update!


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## Jack's Dad

jennifernikki said:


> Ww, you just take every opportunity to insult me. I must say I'm amazed by some of the responses. How quick it seems that people would give up a dog. I'm sure I'll get heat for this but, everyone else is speaking their mind. Maybe thats why they are so many dogs in shelters & rescues, etc. People don't take the time to fix the problem. My kids were pestering the dog & he felt trapped, so he nipped at them. I'm the one at fault there. I shouldve had a better eye on the kids. If someone was crawling all over you, wouldnt you snap, I know I would.
> My main problem w/ him is the way he acts toward strangers entering my house. He's very territorial & it stinks that I can't have anyone in the house.
> 
> My kids are loud, active kids, as they should be. They're kids. They run around the house, run past him, fast. And he's never bit them or been aggressive toward them. He's only nipped those two times, when they invaded his space.
> It's obvious that he has medical & behavioral issues going on. I'm not "going to let life get too busy that a child get bit again." Obviously I'm taking action, or otherwise, I wouldnt be asking advice on this forum, or booking appointments for tomorrow & Saturday.


Well I still hope it turns out. The thing is though, your original post and this are very much different in tone and who was at fault.

The original had the dog sounding a lot worse. Now it's the kids fault and you for not watching them. What about the babysitter and the trainer and the behaviorist. Was it their faults also.


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## llombardo

Jack's Dad said:


> Well I still hope it turns out. The thing is though, your original post and this are very much different in tone and who was at fault.
> 
> The original had the dog sounding a lot worse. Now it's the kids fault and you for not watching them. What about the babysitter and the trainer and the behaviorist. Was it their faults also.


From what I read the trainer shoved the dog pretty hard to show the dog who was dominant..whether the dog was in pain or just didn't like the trainers attitude is the question??? With the niece who was babysitting, the dog growled whenever the niece went near or picked up the youngest child...protection??


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## PatchonGSD

jennifernikki said:


> I'm just very stressed. I shouldnt have wrote my last post. I'm done. I'll keep things updated for those who are interested in knowing.


I sent you a PM.


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## GregK

llombardo said:


> From what I read the trainer shoved the dog pretty hard to show the dog who was dominant..whether the dog was in pain or just didn't like the trainers attitude is the question???


 
Probably both.



llombardo said:


> With the niece who was babysitting, the dog growled whenever the niece went near or picked up the youngest child...protection??


Resource guarding.


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## Jack's Dad

jennifernikki said:


> Long story short. We rescued Finley last December, he was almost 5 months old. From the beginning, he had agression issues w/ my kids (ages 2, 5 & 6), expecially my 5 yr old. He actually nipped the younger two. I brought him to our local kennal club for some training & he snapped at the trainer. Thats when she suggested behavioral training. So i went to one session & Finley snapped at him, when the trainer was trying to show him dominace. His aggression is so bad, we can't have anyone over to our house. My niece was babysitting last week. He's met her plenty of times & out of nowhere he was vicisouly growling, showing his teeth & barking at her. The list goes on.
> 
> Well this is the original about the behavior. It sounds much worse to me than what I just read tonight.
> 
> I still wish the op the best. Now I will be done because I don't really have anything else I could add that hasn't already been said.


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## llombardo

Jack's Dad said:


> jennifernikki said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long story short. We rescued Finley last December, he was almost 5 months old. From the beginning, he had agression issues w/ my kids (ages 2, 5 & 6), expecially my 5 yr old. He actually nipped the younger two. I brought him to our local kennal club for some training & he snapped at the trainer. Thats when she suggested behavioral training. So i went to one session & Finley snapped at him, when the trainer was trying to show him dominace. His aggression is so bad, we can't have anyone over to our house. My niece was babysitting last week. He's met her plenty of times & out of nowhere he was vicisouly growling, showing his teeth & barking at her. The list goes on.
> 
> Well this is the original about the behavior. It sounds much worse to me than what I just read tonight.
> 
> I still wish the op the best. Now I will be done because I don't really have anything else I could add that hasn't already been said.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that when a person is emotionally drained they tend to leave out things....most of the time important things. After several posts/opinions, it gives them time to think and sometimes when one can look back the stuff they wrote becomes more defined later on. That is the good thing about forums....someone might say something that can trigger something, etc.
Click to expand...


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## Jag

llombardo said:


> Jack's Dad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think that when a person is emotionally drained they tend to leave out things....most of the time important things. After several posts/opinions, it gives them time to think and sometimes when one can look back the stuff they wrote becomes more defined later on. That is the good thing about forums....someone might say something that can trigger something, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> This is true! The original post sounded like this dog had little chance of being 'fixed' or worked with. It sounded like my female (who was insane). However, subsequent posts make it sound like a GSD in need of training... and honestly the kid who won't leave the dog alone needs a serious spanking.  Now, you can argue that a well bred shepherd who has been in the home with these children shouldn't be reacting this way. I agree. This isn't a well bred dog. However, that doesn't mean it can't be worked with on the behaviors. It's not just the dog that needs to be worked with, though, it also sounds like the kids need more management. I agree with Selzer in that if the dog had no control, it would've done some serious damage to those kids. There are some troubling things (still) about this dog, but it doesn't sound like a lost cause at this point. However, the original post also said there was no money for training or medical care. If this has changed, then great. If not.... then that's another story. I hope that the OP can recognize that with the confusion of what's really happening is causing the huge difference of opinion, but also a normal differing reaction from people in what they will and will not accept from a dog in the home. I have a completely different picture of this dog now than in the beginning of this thread. Another REALLY good reason to take dogs with behavioral issues to a trainer who can SEE the dog and the behaviors. We can't see the dog, and the only info. we have is what's provided by the poster... which is sometimes incomplete or misleading.
Click to expand...


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## Freestep

selzer said:


> Do we give out little notches on e the belt when we get another pup euthanized on this board?


Seriously?

I've had to euthanize my own dogs before, I know it's not fun, or easy, or to be taken lightly. No matter what the circumstances, there will always be sadness and guilt.

I've already explained my position and what *I* would do if I were in the same situation. That doesn't mean I wish it on anyone. It sucks beyond belief, and I hate it when it has to be done. Whatever the OP does is up to her, of course--if she wants to pursue treatment and manage the dog, I'm certainly not going to tell her she's wrong.


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