# Apparently I have a cheaply bred dog.



## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I honestly wasn't sure where to post this but here goes. I saw a few people saw that a few people said a 200 dollar German Shepherd is not a good dog. Well maybe those people need to realize that that's not always the case before they make such a broad generalization. I bought Riley for 250 dollars and yeah, I may be guilty for buying from a "BYB" but Riley is a darn good dog with a great temperament. He's not human or dog aggressive. He will bark a little aggressively at other dogs and then whines but it's because he wants to play. He'll be 1 year next month and sure we've still got more training to go with his patience on meeting new dogs but other than that he's got all the commands I give him down to a T. If Shutzhund training was not so expensive I would start him in training for it. I've wanted to ever since I got him but I am a college student and my parents aren't rich. My aunt's husband used to do Schutzhund training before he got seriously injured and he worked with me a few days with Riley and said he would probably excel in it and even recommended a trainer for me but like I said, paying for it is not in the cards right now. Also, Riley's hips so far are in excellent condition. I took him to the vet last Friday because he was limping on his front foot and they did X-rays of his foot and I requested hips too. So far they are doing good so in another year I'll know for sure. 

My other dog Apollo I "bought" for 50 dollars off of Craigslist. I don't know what breeder he came from but he's also a great dog with a great temperament. His only quirk that may be from bad breeding is his OCD tail chasing and shadow obsession or that could he from his very first owner who left him in an apartment complex for most of the day with nothing to do. Other than that he is really quick to learn new commands and is good around other people. He is leery at first but I tell people that want to pet him how to approach and he does excellent. At this moment in my life I cannot afford a 1,000 and up dollar dog. After I graduate and start my career I will definitely be able to get a "high quality" dog so many people claim are "better" dogs. In all honesty I would love to buy from an actual reputable breeder because I know they are doing it for the well being of the breed and the betterment of the breed. Before I bought my dog Riley I looked into rescuing as well and even put in an application for a GSD at the Lackland AFB but unfortunately was denied because I don't have a backyard. I also tried another rescue organization but was once again denied. So that's when I bought Riley. And just for the record, even though my dogs are both AKC registered and I got one from a BYB, I don't breed my dogs and never plan to. I've also heard it's common for people who buy from "BYB" to breed their dogs. Just thought I'd clarify that. And Riley also wasn't from a "puppy mill." I don't know why I feel the need to justify my actions I just wanted to let those know who think a 200 dollar dog is a badly bred dog should rethink it even though it may be the case more than half the time.


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## Shrap (Mar 4, 2011)

I'm sure your dogs are great DOGS, but perhaps not great GSDs, if you know what I mean.
Conformation - do they conform to the breed standard? Not just "do they look like a GSD" - you have things to look at like head shape/muzzle length, eye colour, height, length:height ratio, tail length and curve, rear angulation, pigment etc. etc.
Temperament - do you know how to accurately evaluate your dogs temperament, and compare to what a GSD should be? Most BYBs don't take into consideration weak nerves etc.

I'm sure somebody will come along and write what I'm trying to say in a much better way though lol!

Just to reiterate, I'm sure your dogs are GREAT pets, just that when peple say a $200 dog isn't good, they might just mean it's not a good example of its breed?
And yes, your dog was cheaply bred :s But your dog is a pet, so don't worry about it. You know you love your dogs and they're what you're looking for, so why care what anyone else says?

Although please don't buy from a BYB again.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Heagler870 said:


> I honestly wasn't sure where to post this but here goes. I saw a few people saw that a few people said a 200 dollar German Shepherd is not a good dog. Well maybe those people need to realize that that's not always the case before they make such a broad generalization. I bought Riley for 250 dollars and yeah, I may be guilty for buying from a "BYB" but Riley is a darn good dog with a great temperament. He's not human or dog aggressive. He will bark a little aggressively at other dogs and then whines but it's because he wants to play. He'll be 1 year next month and sure we've still got more training to go with his patience on meeting new dogs but other than that he's got all the commands I give him down to a T. If Shutzhund training was not so expensive I would start him in training for it. I've wanted to ever since I got him but I am a college student and my parents aren't rich. My aunt's husband used to do Schutzhund training before he got seriously injured and he worked with me a few days with Riley and said he would probably excel in it and even recommended a trainer for me but like I said, paying for it is not in the cards right now. Also, Riley's hips so far are in excellent condition. I took him to the vet last Friday because he was limping on his front foot and they did X-rays of his foot and I requested hips too. So far they are doing good so in another year I'll know for sure.
> 
> My other dog Apollo I "bought" for 50 dollars off of Craigslist. I don't know what breeder he came from but he's also a great dog with a great temperament. His only quirk that may be from bad breeding is his OCD tail chasing and shadow obsession or that could he from his very first owner who left him in an apartment complex for most of the day with nothing to do. Other than that he is really quick to learn new commands and is good around other people. He is leery at first but I tell people that want to pet him how to approach and he does excellent. At this moment in my life I cannot afford a 1,000 and up dollar dog. After I graduate and start my career I will definitely be able to get a "high quality" dog so many people claim are "better" dogs. In all honesty I would love to buy from an actual reputable breeder because I know they are doing it for the well being of the breed and the betterment of the breed. Before I bought my dog Riley I looked into rescuing as well and even put in an application for a GSD at the Lackland AFB but unfortunately was denied because I don't have a backyard. I also tried another rescue organization but was once again denied. So that's when I bought Riley. And just for the record, even though my dogs are both AKC registered and I got one from a BYB, I don't breed my dogs and never plan to. I've also heard it's common for people who buy from "BYB" to breed their dogs. Just thought I'd clarify that. And Riley also wasn't from a "puppy mill." I don't know why I feel the need to justify my actions I just wanted to let those know who think a 200 dollar dog is a badly bred dog should rethink it even though it may be the case more than half the time.


Don't worry you aren't the only one.  I bought Amadeus when I was 15 for $250. He had a wonderful temperament, extremely smart, healthy, etc. Did he have perfect conformation? Probably not. Was that really important to me? No. I had no intention of ever doing anything more with him than having him as my best friend. And as my mom said to me the morning after he died, he served his purpose in life very well. I wouldn't have traded him for a high/well bred dog. However, now that I am able to shell out the money for a well bred dog I am doing so. 8 years ago when I got Amadeus I was not able to, but wanted a German Shepherd. Did I get lucky with him? Absolutely, but I would not have traded it for anything. My dad thinks I am crazy for spending $1200 on Glock, but if he is even half the dog Amadeus was I would pay more than that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

great temperament, you said both of your dogs are leery when meeting someone ? -- don't let the dogs get away with the mean bark at a stranger approaching which you mentioned in another thread. To me they may be sharp, too reactive , maybe when pushed will be shy . 
You went to two rescue situations and was denied each time and yet you went full steam ahead and took on two dogs ?

Hope you get yourself into a class where you can do some training and that this does not turn into another train wreck.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

I had Riley a few months before I got Apollo. Its not like I took them on at the same time and I am doing fine with them. How is a rescue organization that denied me because of a lack of a backyard really supposed to know what I can and cannot handle?


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## Heagler870 (Jun 27, 2009)

And why would you think it's a train wreck or think it would become one?? Really? Just because I may not have years of experience like you may have means that I have dogs that will turn into train wrecks? I'm glad my dogs are well behaved as they are now because I can't even imagine what they will be like in another year with way more training. Sure, they have a few quirks that we are still working on but that's just the thing, we are working on them.


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## koda girl (Feb 15, 2010)

I got my dog from a reputable breeder, paid $1000 for her, we got a deal because my husband knows the breeder. No one has ever told me I have an expensive well bred dog. She is my pet and the only people that see her are people in my neighborhood and at the dog park. These people are not breeders of GS and have no idea if she is well bred or not. Maybe you are hanging around with a lot of GS breeders, I don't know. And well bred expensive dogs have behaviour problems also, we as owners often create these problems and then have to deal with them. I know we (me and my dog) have our problems also. Love your dog and forget how much you paid for it, it might be more of a problem for you than anyone else.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

It's not about the price of the dog, nor about whether the dog is a good companion or not, it is about NOT supporting BYB's. 

If someone can't afford a dog from a good breeder, then there are a LOT of dogs looking for new homes, and tons in shelters.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

Most of us just aren't in favor of supporting BYBs - no matter what they charge. I paid $70.00 for my GSD that I adopted from the pound. I have had her for 11 years. She is 13 now. She has been a great dog with no health problems and a good temperament. If I was going to purchase a dog, it would be from a reputable breeder. I would never buy from a BYB. If your pup is healthy and of good temperament - you got very, very lucky. Most people are not so lucky and I would never recommend such a purchase.


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> And why would you think it's a train wreck or think it would become one?? Really? Just because I may not have years of experience like you may have means that I have dogs that will turn into train wrecks? I'm glad my dogs are well behaved as they are now because I can't even imagine what they will be like in another year with way more training. Sure, they have a few quirks that we are still working on but that's just the thing, we are working on them.


I don't think he's referring to your situation directly as he does not know you personally. Based on what you described, he's merely stating that some things are signs of temperament flaws and that given the right chain of events (luck and environment) can lead to an escalating problem aka "the train wreck". Try not to get so defensive, we are all here to help each other...


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I bought my dog from a BYB as well... not proud of it nor will I ever make this mistake again.

I feel lucky and grateful that he turned out with great temperament, generally healthy, and just a great dog. I do not feel like BYB's produce good dogs just because mine came out ok but rather lucky that my mistake didn't turn around and bite me (literally and figuratively) and know to not take a risk like that in the future.

Also, BYB's are generally in it for the money. They do not temperament test their dogs and most of them don't even health test their dogs. Some will even breed dogs with genetic deficiencies and bad temperaments whereas a reputable breeder will select against these traits at all costs (as well as all monetary costs - a good breeder will import a stud if his stud is found to have a temperament or genetic flaw, a BYB will still breed him)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you , that is exactly the point. It only takes a trickle of water to start eroding away till you have an unstoppable flood. There are indications of potential problems which can be avoided with good management now. 
There is something to be said for years of experience. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## wilbanks17 (Feb 11, 2011)

carmspack said:


> great temperament, you said both of your dogs are leery when meeting someone ? -- don't let the dogs get away with the mean bark at a stranger approaching which you mentioned in another thread. To me they may be sharp, too reactive , maybe when pushed will be shy .
> You went to two rescue situations and was denied each time and yet you went full steam ahead and took on two dogs ?
> 
> Hope you get yourself into a class where you can do some training and that this does not turn into another train wreck.
> ...


Doesn't seem like a train wreck to me. Good luck with both of your dogs. Glad to see the $200 dogs are doing well for you. You don't always have to but from a breeder who thinks they know it all to have a good dog.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

right wilbanks , not now, but you don't want it to become one.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Heagler870 said:


> I honestly wasn't sure where to post this but here goes. I saw a few people saw that a few people said a 200 dollar German Shepherd is not a good dog.


Crimeny. How many times do we have to say this? We should make it a sticky. 

Nobody is insulting your dog. Stop being sensitive. We're not saying that a $200 dog is a bad dog. You can get a good dog anywhere, including free on the side of the road. 

We're saying that a breeder that only charges $200, for a dog is a bad breeder. Can you get a good dog from a bad breeder? Sure you can. But you're more likely to get a temperamentally sound, healthy dog from a responsible breeder.


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

Of course it's possible to get a good dog for $200. Sometimes you're just lucky. There's an awfully good chance, though, that you'll get a dog with unstable temperament or very expensive or incurable health problems. It's a lottery, and not one I'm willing to take part in. I don't care to support backyard breeders, and I don't gamble. Besides, I'm just not lucky. If I were to buy a lottery ticket, I would probably win a negative amount & have to pay large amount of money into the lottery fund.


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## allexblake (Sep 14, 2010)

If I may? There is nothing wrong with a "cheaper priced" GSD. I remember two individuals whom had GSD's, one was purchased for over 1g and the other was purchased for 350. The "cheaper" dog came from a home where the lady had one litter before her female was to be fixed. 
She didn't want to charge a ridiculous amount of money for the puppy's. 
My point is the neighbors or anyone could not tell...neither probably most on this site, which dog was the "cheaper" dog. These two neighbors lived next to each other and their dogs hung out together also.
If you don't want to win a top award at the dog shows, then there is no point in buying a GSD from an overpriced breeder.
Dogs have the same charges for shots, medical care, food and toys. I still don't understand to this day why the important breeders charge over 1g for a dog. And it's not for the money they do it? Really? 
Just my opinion is all.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

:headbang:


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Kris10 said:


> :headbang:


Ditto


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Castlemaid said:


> It's not about the price of the dog, nor about whether the dog is a good companion or not, it is about NOT supporting BYB's.
> 
> If someone can't afford a dog from a good breeder, then there are a LOT of dogs looking for new homes, and tons in shelters.


Exactly. 

No one thinks your $200 dog is a bad dog... it's about the breeder who decided to breed these puppies and sell them without all the health testing and what not that make a good/reputable breeder. It's about not supporting these people.

I don't see the reason why people continuosly need to seek approval or justify their decision of buying from BYB's. What's done is done. Hopefully in the future, you don't continue to buy from these type of breeders no matter how great your current dogs turn out.



allexblake said:


> If I may? There is nothing wrong with a "cheaper priced" GSD. I remember two individuals whom had GSD's, one was purchased for over 1g and the other was purchased for 350. The "cheaper" dog came from a home where the lady had one litter before her female was to be fixed.
> She didn't want to charge a ridiculous amount of money for the puppy's.
> My point is the neighbors or anyone could not tell...neither probably most on this site, which dog was the "cheaper" dog. These two neighbors lived next to each other and their dogs hung out together also.
> *If you don't want to win a top award at the dog shows, then there is no point in buying a GSD from an overpriced breeder*.
> ...


Would you still feel that same way if that puppy was born with severe HD because it's sire and dam never had their hips x-rayed and the puppy had to live every day of it's life in pain? 

What if the dog had severe fear issues (yes, temperament is genetic) because these people decided to breed their purebred dogs without any regard to temperament?


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I just have to throw my two cents in, since I held very much the same opinion as the OP when I joined this forum over a year ago. I purchased Kaiya for $300 from a BYB and at the time, no one could tell me I didn't make a good choice. I went to the breeders home, spent several hours talking with him and observing the pups and meeting the sire/dam. He showed me pedigree papers there and everything. Out of 5 pups, she was the one that kept coming back to me when I called.

I didn't know SQUAT about breeders or GSD's, but just KNEW I was making a good decision. Anyone that is familiar with us can tell you, I have been through the trenches with this dog and her fear reactivity towards other dogs. 4 trainers and 3 classes later, and a year of constant training, conditioning, and working and I STILL can not make her feel at ease when a strange dog approaches. It has been A LOT of work just in getting her to conrol her reactiveness and I have spent probably 5 times as much as I paid for her on trainers, classes, books, etc to work through this. Kaiya will NEVER have solid nerves and there's nothing I can do about it. Her mother was people reactive and had to be kenneled when I showed up, but I didn't know that could be passed on through genetics. I thought it was all on how you raised the dog. But I love my girl, and will never give up on her, but knowing what I know now?? Would never go that route again. 

My second GSD will be here on the 28th and you better believe I paid a pretty penny for him. Reputable breeders put a lot of work into the dogs they breed to make sure that they are worthy of reproducing. They give guarantees, and have contracts, and provide support for you if you need it. They want to make sure their dogs are going to appropriate homes, and not just whoever answered the add first in the paper. I've seen too many BYB that say, "Well, ****, both dogs are registered, let's make puppies and sell em!" My breeder states that if for any reason, I can no longer keep my pup, that he must be returned to her. How many BYB do you know want those pups back that they sell for $250-300 because they have behavioral issues or whatever? 

Its not about how much you pay for the dog, its what the breeder did to ensure that you got a healthy, stable pup that fits the GSD standard as well as your standard and what you are looking for. So often, when you purchase a pup from these lower end priced breeders, you're just rolling the dice on what kind of dog you're actually getting.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Tihannah said:


> Its not about how much you pay for the dog, its what the breeder did to ensure that you got a healthy, stable pup that fits the GSD standard as well as your standard and what you are looking for. So often, when you purchase a pup from these lower end priced breeders, you're just rolling the dice on what kind of dog you're actually getting.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Nice post, Tina. Glad you learned from your mistake and best of luck with the new puppy!

Kind of off topic from the OP's issue, but how do you plan on bringing in the new puppy Kaiya is so dog reactive? Obviously, I hope the best, but are you prepared for the worst? 

From your signature, Kaiya is not even two years old yet, so she hasn't even reached her maturity. Do you think she's ready for a new puppy in her home being such a dog reactive dog?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I also don't think it's the 'price' of the dog, it's what's behind it, as in responsible breeder, health testing, knowledgeable. 

My first gsd away from home was 350$, that was in 87, the breeder health tested her breeding dogs, she wasn't a big 'kennel', more of a "hobby" kennel, I would not call her a BYB, she did her homework and was breeding some nice old grafental lines. 
He was the 'best' all around dog ever. 

Would I look at someone who was selling dogs (any breed) for a couple hundred bucks? I might, but I usually have something specific I'm looking for so most likely not, because now a days, while the person may "love" their dogs, I seriously doubt they are putting any money into OFA'ing/elbow or any other health clearances.

But it certainly doesn't mean there aren't NICE dogs out there , just a luck of the draw


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Nice post, Tina. Glad you learned from your mistake and best of luck with the new puppy!
> 
> Kind of off topic from the OP's issue, but how do you plan on bringing in the new puppy Kaiya is so dog reactive? Obviously, I hope the best, but are you prepared for the worst?
> 
> From your signature, Kaiya is not even two years old yet, so she hasn't even reached her maturity. Do you think she's ready for a new puppy in her home being such a dog reactive dog?


She is doing MUCH better, and is a lot easier going with strange dogs inside the home especially smaller dogs since my other two are so small. My mother visited for Xmas with her poodle and about 15 min after the initial introduction, she was fine and wanted nothing more than to play with him all weekend. She is extremely well behaved in the home. I think that once she realizes he is a new addition to our family, she will be fine.

I have also been doing my homework on training and walking separately, etc and have spoken with other GSD owners with reactive dogs that brought a second into the home. I think she will be okay.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Sounds like you're taking all the right steps and doing your homework. Good luck with everything and don't forget to post some pictures when the new one arrives.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Let me just throw in that I also spoke extensively with the breeder about Kaiya, her fear reaction, and bringing in the new pup. She felt that we would be okay as well. I am just going to be cautious that I don't take them outside the home together until I am sure that the new pup is completely comfortable in any and all situations. I definitely don't want her behavior rubbing off on him!


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

allexblake said:


> I still don't understand to this day why the important breeders charge over 1g for a dog. And it's not for the money they do it? Really?


A couple of years ago, I did the math on what it took to get to Schutzhund I, kKL 1 with Hunther, which he got at four years of age. Food, training, vet bills, equipment, etc.

Cost of the dog - $1800 (Why not less than $1,000? Because his breeder, Randy Tyson, has a proven track record of getting it right repeatedly and consistently).

Food @ $40 per bag, 1 bag per month X 48 months = $1,920

Training treats @ $10 per roll, 1 per month X 36 months = $360

Protection training $20 a session, twice a week X 50 weeks X 3 years= $6000

Obedience coaching $20 per session, once a week X 50 weeks X 3 years= $3000

Crates, leashes, tugs, other equipment = $1,000 

Hip and elbow X-rays = $200 for both (and I got a deal). 
Well checks and vaccinations at the vet: $300 (arbitrary; he's been pretty healty up to that time)

$14,580 to "bring this dog to market," so to speak. By that I mean, take the steps necessary to create dogs that can reasonably be expected to pass on their quality to their puppies, and to improve the breed.

Divide that number by four and you get $3645. Multiply that by five and you get $17,625, the cost to bring my bitch Britta to market (she' a year older than Hunther). 

$32,205 spent to produce dogs that in my opinion show enough quality to justify passing on their genetics to the next generation. And that does not take into account the fact that for every 15 minutes I paid for training, I spent at least 45 minutes of my own time. If you figure in what the economists call "opportunity cost" (I'm willing to pay $20 for 15 minutes of my time, so that's what my time is worth, and I "spent" $60 per week times 150 weeks, that's $9,000 I didn't earn doing something else), it's even higher. I did all the training and put the titles on those dogs myself. that extra time doesn't include time spent aging tracks, by the way.

If it were just about the money, I should have charged $3220 per puppy to recoup my investment, with not one cent of profit. There's no way that I could have looked people in the eye and asked for that kind of money for an unproven breeding. I had ten puppies over two litters, kept one female for breeding. I grossed $9,000. As you can see, financially I lost my shirt. And I didn't have an emergency "C" section or any of the other pregnancy complications to deal with. And I'm not what would be considered an "important" breeder.

Anyone who gets into breeding "for the money" might want to bookmark this post. But the ones who get into it for the money just stick two dogs together, don't title or test their breeding stock, or probably even post here.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Diane:
$350.00 in 1987 had the same buying power as $684.00 in 2010.Annual inflation over this period was 2.96%.
DollarTimes.com | Inflation Calculator


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

684 in 2-10? I may have gotten ripped off on my other dogs))


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

Heh... that's why I adopt from Craigslist. I could NEVER in a million years buy from a "responsible" breeder. Paying 300 for a dog is insane to me, let alone $$$$. Jake was born at a responsible breeder's place in Auburn. His original owner worked with a relative of the breeder, and got a discount on Jake because he was a returned dog (couple got divorced, returned puppy to breeder). The owner found out a few months later she was getting forclosed on, so she contacted me, since I was looking for a GSD on Craigslist. She was too embarrassed to try to return Jake, thinking the breeder would think there was something wrong with him, being a 2X return. 
Is Jake the spitting image of perfection? HECK NO. Is he a loving companion, who gets tons of $$$ spent on him? Yuppers. Did I have to buy pee pads, deal with whining & howling all night long? Nope. 

Funny how people say, "don't buy from backyard breeders", but then send people to a rescue, which is filled with backyard bred dogs and puppies. It's the same dog either way. Just kind of an interesting point to ponder.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

Hunther's Dad said:


> A couple of years ago, I did the math on what it took to get to Schutzhund I, kKL 1 with Hunther, which he got at four years of age. Food, training, vet bills, equipment, etc.
> 
> Cost of the dog - $1800 (Why not less than $1,000? Because his breeder, Randy Tyson, has a proven track record of getting it right repeatedly and consistently).
> 
> ...


My only real issue with these quotes and figures is that many people join groups where there are minimal annual group fees, so they aren't paying for individual coaching and paying for private training fees/lessons. Many breeders are to the point that they train their own dogs in a group setting and privately. So all those training fees go out the window.

Adding in food and treats - well, that's debatable I suppose, but if you're going to have a dog you'll have those costs, schutzhund or not. Routine vet care, again, typical costs of a pet. They may not spend a couple hundred on hips/elbows, though not just breeders x-ray so one could debate that cost as well.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

webzpinner said:


> Funny how people say, "don't buy from backyard breeders", but then send people to a rescue, which is filled with backyard bred dogs and puppies. It's the same dog either way. Just kind of an interesting point to ponder.


Yeah, with two major differences:

1) You're not financially supporting the people who profit off of pet overpopulation.
2) With a rescue dog, what you see is generally what you get. You can evaluate the dog and see if it has any temperament or behavioral issues. You can have your vet check the dog and see if it has any health problems. You can even have the hips x-rayed. With a backyard breeder, one 8-week old $250 puppy looks just like another.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

> Funny how people say, "don't buy from backyard breeders", but then send people to a rescue, which is filled with backyard bred dogs and puppies. It's the same dog either way. Just kind of an interesting point to ponder.


We say don't buy from a BYB because you are just supporting their business so they can breed irresponsibly AGAIN. Getting the dog from a rescue is cleaning up the mess that over breeding created and is not putting money directly into a BYB's pocket. 

No one is saying that BYB can't produce good pet dogs but without the knowledge, experience and training to back that up, you just don't know that you are getting a sound dog.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

webzpinner said:


> Funny how people say, "don't buy from backyard breeders", but then send people to a rescue, which is filled with backyard bred dogs and puppies. It's the same dog either way. Just kind of an interesting point to ponder.


This is the definition of comparing apples and oranges.

Emoore hit it pretty much on the nose with an explanation why.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

never mind the personal economy of the byb and the "lucky" customer.

The issue is the stewardship of the breed. The maintenance of quality .

What if the only gsd available were the products of byb. Then you would be sorry. The breed would barely be recognizable, in appearance and in character. 

I bet you if this discussion were open to European breeders they would just shake their head. , and then benefit with exporting to North America, then benefit because some local police department is sick and tired of testing all the dogs that don't have a hope in he el el , then resorts to buying imports at a premium which costs you the tax payer because you are funding it in the end. 

The bottom line is the integrity of the breed.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Yeah, with two major differences:
> 
> 1) You're not financially supporting the people who profit off of pet overpopulation.
> 2) With a rescue dog, what you see is generally what you get. You can evaluate the dog and see if it has any temperament or behavioral issues. You can have your vet check the dog and see if it has any health problems. You can even have the hips x-rayed. With a backyard breeder, one 8-week old $250 puppy looks just like another.





gsdraven said:


> We say don't buy from a BYB because you are just supporting their business so they can breed irresponsibly AGAIN. Getting the dog from a rescue is cleaning up the mess that over breeding created and is not putting money directly into a BYB's pocket.
> 
> No one is saying that BYB can't produce good pet dogs but without the knowledge, experience and training to back that up, you just don't know that you are getting a sound dog.





Lucy Dog said:


> This is the definition of comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> Emoore hit it pretty much on the nose with an explanation why.





carmspack said:


> never mind the personal economy of the byb and the "lucky" customer.
> 
> The issue is the stewardship of the breed. The maintenance of quality .
> 
> ...


Ok, apparently I wasn't clear enough in my statement. My apologies. What I meant was the dogs themselves, not the economy of BYB. I would never buy from a BYB either. Shelters or craigslist for $150 or less was my limit. My comment was meant that the dogs you find at a rescue typically are the results of BYB, so you are still getting a "misaligned, temperamental, horrible, shoulda never existed in the first place" dog anyway, AND for a cheaper price, to boot. 

Also, I don't buy the "integrity of the breed" argument. There are two completely different worlds where dogs are concerned. There are people like me, who want "a dog". We want it to resemble a certain look, purebred or not doesn't matter, but we want a family member. Then there are the people who want only the best, finest quality, that absolutely must be the bees' knees daaaahling. They will only buy a $3000 animal. Those worlds rarely mingle. It's like a Sony home theater from wal-mart for $60 or a $80,000 system from South Beach A/V Theatre company.

My craigslist dog will never breed with anyone's snooty, pureblood, nobility dog (he's neutered, anyway), so the lines are fine to inbreed for centuries to come.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I don't get it?? You'd spend tons of money on him, but not for him??


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

webzpinner said:


> There are two completely different worlds where dogs are concerned. There are people like me, who want "a dog". We want it to resemble a certain look, purebred or not doesn't matter, but we want a family member. Then there are the people who want only the best, finest quality, that absolutely must be the bees' knees daaaahling. They will only buy a $3000 animal. Those worlds rarely mingle. It's like a Sony home theater from wal-mart for $60 or a $80,000 system.


This isn't true either. There are plenty of people (on this very board no less) that have rescue GSDs or mutts and the well bred dog. It's true that they serve different purposes and people who want no more than a pet dog that just looks a certain way should go to shelters but it doesn't make the argument that BYBs aren't breeding true GSDs any less valid. There is a standard for a reason and many people have a problem with a dog looking like a GSD but not acting like one. And the people who have a problem with it can be found with rescues just as much as well bred expensive dogs.

Right now, I have a BYB and a rescue (BYB) GSD. I don't expect them to excel at working or to protect me because they were not bred with the correct genetics in mind but I do expect them to be good pets and respectable ambassadors for their breed. I am actively involved in rescue and fostering. I am just starting to get interested in dog sports and if some day when I have spare time after full time work, grad school, volunteering and spending time with my current dogs (heck maybe even dating!) and I want to actively compete in sports, you bet your butt that I will be going to a responsible breeder for a well bred dog that can handle the stress of that type of environment and who will work and enjoy it. Until then, I will continue rescue my animals.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

webzpinner said:


> Ok, apparently I wasn't clear enough in my statement. My apologies. What I meant was the dogs themselves, not the economy of BYB. I would never buy from a BYB either. Shelters or craigslist for $150 or less was my limit. My comment was meant that the dogs you find at a rescue typically are the results of BYB, so you are still getting a "misaligned, temperamental, horrible, shoulda never existed in the first place" dog anyway, AND for a cheaper price, to boot.



My point #2 addresses this exactly. With a well-bred puppy with generations of quality breeding behind him, you have a very good idea of what you're getting. With a rescue dog from a responsible, foster-home based rescue, you have a very good idea of what you're getting. With a byb puppy, you have NO IDEA what you're getting. It could turn out very well and obviously has for some people, but it could turn out very very badly.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have/had rescues as well, I am not anti rescue, however I'm all for buying from a reputable breeder, know what I'm getting and what I'm supporting.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

webzpinner said:


> Ok, apparently I wasn't clear enough in my statement. My apologies. What I meant was the dogs themselves, not the economy of BYB. I would never buy from a BYB either. Shelters or craigslist for $150 or less was my limit. My comment was meant that the dogs you find at a rescue typically are the results of BYB, so you are still getting a "misaligned, temperamental, horrible, shoulda never existed in the first place" dog anyway, AND for a cheaper price, to boot.
> 
> Also, I don't buy the "integrity of the breed" argument. There are two completely different worlds where dogs are concerned. There are people like me, who want "a dog". We want it to resemble a certain look, purebred or not doesn't matter, but we want a family member. Then there are the people who want only the best, finest quality, that absolutely must be the bees' knees daaaahling. They will only buy a $3000 animal. Those worlds rarely mingle. It's like a Sony home theater from wal-mart for $60 or a $80,000 system from South Beach A/V Theatre company.
> 
> My craigslist dog will never breed with anyone's snooty, pureblood, nobility dog (he's neutered, anyway), so the lines are fine to inbreed for centuries to come.


Wow. I didn't know there were only 2 types of people in the world. 

I really don't understand the people here who are getting defensive because they have free, cheap, BYB, Craigslist, whatever pups. Maybe you need to reread some posts. No one is saying "my dog is better than yours". I don't know how many times it needs to be said. 

You got a dog to "resemble a certain look"? So you think it is okay if all the breeds get watered down and then you have ZERO idea of what you are getting when you bring an 8 week old pup home? You think when someone goes to a reputable breeder it is just because they are worried about how a dog looks?


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

webzpinner said:


> Ok, apparently I wasn't clear enough in my statement. My apologies. What I meant was the dogs themselves, not the economy of BYB. I would never buy from a BYB either. Shelters or craigslist for $150 or less was my limit. My comment was meant that the dogs you find at a rescue typically are the results of BYB, so you are still getting a "misaligned, temperamental, horrible, shoulda never existed in the first place" dog anyway, AND for a cheaper price, to boot.
> 
> Also, I don't buy the "integrity of the breed" argument. There are two completely different worlds where dogs are concerned. There are people like me, who want "a dog". We want it to resemble a certain look, purebred or not doesn't matter, but we want a family member. Then there are the people who want only the best, finest quality, that absolutely must be the bees' knees daaaahling. They will only buy a $3000 animal. Those worlds rarely mingle. It's like a Sony home theater from wal-mart for $60 or a $80,000 system from South Beach A/V Theatre company.
> 
> My craigslist dog will never breed with anyone's snooty, pureblood, nobility dog (he's neutered, anyway), so the lines are fine to inbreed for centuries to come.


WOW...ok...let's do another analogy...

Lets say you LOVE a Mercedes Benz. For the smooth ride, the quality interior, that 100,000 warranty, etc etc, but its $50K. So instead, you go to a chop shop that says they'll sell you the same Mercedes Benz for $15K, but hey, no warranties. You get that bad boy home and 6 months down the road, you start having problems-serious problems. You take it to a mechanic, and somebody built your Mercedes with a Huyndai engine and some spare parts. Technically, its not EVEN a Mercedes! You end up spending thousands to have this joker repaired and there's no guarantees its really even fixed.

Same thing here. You're talking to people that LOVE the GSD breed for everything that it was originally bred to be~intelligent, strong, fearless, protective etc. etc. When you are looking at breeders, responsible breeders, that's what they are striving for. Mercedes Benz quality GSD's, not some thrown together genes of two gsd's that just happened to have papers and could be mentally or physically unstable. If the qualities of a TRUE gsd are unimportant to you, then it shouldn't matter what type of dog you pick up from Craiglist or the shelter, because those are not the qualities in a dog you are aiming for. Nothing is WRONG with adopting dogs from these places, but there certainly isn't anything wrong with supporting the breeders that put a lot of time and money into making sure they produce to the GSD standard. There's a lot more work put into responsible breeding than just sticking two dogs together in a room and asking for $1500 for the puppies.

Just an extra note: My DH was just outside with our 17mos old GSD. He told her "Inside." so she starts heading in the house when he noticed she left her toy at the end of the driveway. He says to her, "Kaiya, you left your toy. Go out there and get your toy." Like he's talking to one of the kids. She looks at him, then trots to the end of the drive, picks up her toy, and heads inside. THAT's a GSD! We never taught her that, and I've owned many dogs all my life, but none who would've understood that and complied. THATS what I love about the breed!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Tihannah said:


> Just an extra note: My DH was just outside with our 17mos old GSD. He told her "Inside." so she starts heading in the house when he noticed she left her toy at the end of the driveway. He says to her, "Kaiya, you left your toy. Go out there and get your toy." Like he's talking to one of the kids. She looks at him, then trots to the end of the drive, picks up her toy, and heads inside. THAT's a GSD! We never taught her that, and I've owned many dogs all my life, but none who would've understood that and complied.


Now you've done it.  You're going to get eleventy-seven people with $200 craigslist dogs who will tell you _their_ dog does the exact same thing.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Now you've done it.  You're going to get eleventy-seven people with $200 craigslist dogs who will tell you _their_ dog does the exact same thing.


 LOL. I was just thinking that!! DANG IT!! I meant to say she went online and paid my electric bill!!


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Tihannah said:
> 
> 
> > Just an extra note: My DH was just outside with our 17mos old GSD. He told her "Inside." so she starts heading in the house when he noticed she left her toy at the end of the driveway. He says to her, "Kaiya, you left your toy. Go out there and get your toy." Like he's talking to one of the kids. She looks at him, then trots to the end of the drive, picks up her toy, and heads inside. THAT's a GSD! We never taught her that, and I've owned many dogs all my life, but none who would've understood that and complied. THATS what I love about the breed!
> ...


Why as a matter of fact Kaiser does! I posted a video of it on Friday of him going to get his ball he dropped up the trail during our off leash hike on Fri. 

Only he's not from Craiglist but is BYB dog that was turned into the shelter because his "breeder" was threatened with neglect charges and I was fostering him when I decided he was too darn cute not to keep. He's also very anxious and barely within the small end of the standard.

Sorry. Couldn't help it.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Tihannah said:


> LOL. I was just thinking that!! DANG IT!! I meant to say she went online and paid my electric bill!!


You know using a Mercedes as the example is very snooty of you too. That was an excellent post...


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Don't forget that people in it 'for the money' would not have done all that you did - in fact probably almost none of it!


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## allexblake (Sep 14, 2010)

Lucy, my understanding is that alot of big dogs have HD.
I know people with expensive dogs and "cheaper" dogs. 
I didn't get my dog from a BYB. 
I just agree with the original post and that's most like to say "I paid x amount for my dog". 
I have seen expensive dogs act worse than inexpensive ones. I have seen expensive GSD's with more health problems than inexpensive one's. 
I just posted in comment to the original post, it's not my post.
Kinda funny though how knighted and elite members put childish walls bumping their heads against them though lol.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Kris10 said:


> You know using a Mercedes as the example is very snooty of you too. That was an excellent post...


Ha! What can I say? I'm a snooty bees knees daaahhhling! :laugh:


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

allexblake said:


> Kinda funny though how knighted and elite members put childish walls bumping their heads against them though lol.


All the knighted or elite means is that they post a lot - those are based on number of posts not quality. (and I didn't go back to look at who you are talking about so I am not saying their posts aren't good)


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## allexblake (Sep 14, 2010)

I just thought it was silly since we are all here to help with questions and advice?


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## valreegrl (Nov 11, 2009)

gsdraven said:


> This isn't true either. There are plenty of people (on this very board no less) that have rescue GSDs or mutts and the well bred dog. It's true that they serve different purposes and people who want no more than a pet dog that just looks a certain way should go to shelters but it doesn't make the argument that BYBs aren't breeding true GSDs any less valid. There is a standard for a reason and many people have a problem with a dog looking like a GSD but not acting like one. And the people who have a problem with it can be found with rescues just as much as well bred expensive dogs.
> 
> Right now, I have a BYB and a rescue (BYB) GSD. I don't expect them to excel at working or to protect me because they were not bred with the correct genetics in mind but I do expect them to be good pets and respectable ambassadors for their breed. I am actively involved in rescue and fostering. I am just starting to get interested in dog sports and if some day when I have spare time after full time work, grad school, volunteering and spending time with my current dogs (heck maybe even dating!) and I want to actively compete in sports, you bet your butt that I will be going to a responsible breeder for a well bred dog that can handle the stress of that type of environment and who will work and enjoy it. Until then, I will continue rescue my animals.


Yup! Me too  
2 Shepherds, both rescues. My first rescue was from a BYB. Second rescue was from a puppy mill (gasp!). 

Actually my puppy mill rescue just started Agility and is excelling.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

valreegrl said:


> Actually my puppy mill rescue just started Agility and is excelling.


I hope to get Kaiser into Agility as well. We are finishing up our first OB class and then I will get him into the club I am taking Raven to.


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that anyone has a bad dog because it's from a BYB, the entire point is that BYB's in the long run are affecting the breed and by supporting them you then affect the breed.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Just to throw the topic off a bit...
I ran into a girl the other day that showed me a pic of her $300 Chiashund. Half Chihuahua, half Dachshund. That was new one for me. Creative.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

allexblake said:


> Lucy, my understanding is that alot of big dogs have HD.
> I know people with expensive dogs and "cheaper" dogs.
> I didn't get my dog from a BYB.
> I just agree with the original post and that's most like to say "I paid x amount for my dog".
> ...


That's true... all GSD's are susceptible to HD/ED, but I'd be willing to bet anything that the majority of dogs with HD/ED (especially the severe cases) come from dogs without a pedigree full of generations of dogs with good hips.

There are plenty of breeders here who only breed dogs with OFA or A stamp dogs... maybe one of them can give some input on how often the puppies they breed get HD/ED.


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## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

My first GSD was from a BYB...I paid $200 for her. She was the best dog I could have ever asked for. She had heart, soul, she was extremely intelligent, she was healthy, she had a great temperment with people and other dogs. I would gladly pay a BYB $200 again if I could get that same dog. But I know I was very lucky with her. She was a one of a kind dog to me.

My current GSD, I paid a breeder a lot more money than $200. And she is a darn good dog as well.  I consider myself very lucky with both my dogs.

I can see both sides of this.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

One of my current GSDs is from a BYB. Paid $25 for her, she is one of the healthiest dogs I have had, she is smart, loyal, sweet, playful, and protective, and athletic. Would I get another dog from a BYB? No. My other GSD is from a shelter. Very healthy, faithful, sweet, protective, playful. 

I will never support a BYB again. I will only get dogs from a responsible shelter, rescue, or breeder.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> One of my current GSDs is from a BYB. Paid $25 for her, she is one of the healthiest dogs I have had, she is smart, loyal, sweet, playful, and protective, and athletic. Would I get another dog from a BYB? No. My other GSD is from a shelter. Very healthy, faithful, sweet, protective, playful.
> 
> I will never support a BYB again. I will only get dogs from a responsible shelter, rescue, or breeder.


Really... $25?! Nothing against your dog, but why not just give the dog away for free if you're going to charge such a small amount. $25 barely buys a half a tank of gas these days.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Tihannah said:


> Just to throw the topic off a bit...
> I ran into a girl the other day that showed me a pic of her $300 Chiashund. Half Chihuahua, half Dachshund. That was new one for me. Creative.


There was a "Dorgi" being given away on craigslist the other day. Half corgi, half daschund. I thought dear lord please let this person have made up the name... Nope, googled, theres sites and pictures about the "breed" *coughmuttcough*


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> Really... $25?! Nothing against your dog, but why not just give the dog away for free if you're going to charge such a small amount. $25 barely buys a half a tank of gas these days.


None taken.lol. When people post about the prices they paid when they got a dog from a BYB I am kind of amazed. It makes me wonder that the people who own Molly's parents if they weren't really in it for the money.


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## webzpinner (Mar 7, 2011)

Well, it appears I'm just a dumb ******* that shouldn't have a dog, probably shouldn't have had kids, and heck, probably shouldn't even be allowed to breathe, so I'll just go back to lurking, keeping my opinions to myself, a leave all the pretentious goodie-two-shoes to just mock and laugh at all of us who can't afford $4000 for a dog.

Thanks anyway to those who were trying to be friendly.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

allexblake said:


> I still don't understand to this day why the important breeders charge over 1g for a dog. And it's not for the money they do it? Really?
> Just my opinion is all.


I will give you a bit of a example here - sort of an average breeding plan.....either a home bred female or one that was imported for $5000 or so.....let's put aside the travel and gas and time for 3 years to train and title a homebred female....OFA's and 'a' stamps - $600 on the female...

8 Progesterone tests - $avg 600.00
Brucellosis - avg $50
travel to male 500 miles each way = 1000 miles @ $.50 per mile = $500
Hotel at location of male - 3 nights - $250.00
meals - 3 days - $150
Boarding OTHER dogs while you go to breed female! $200
Ultrasound & x-rays - $200
Supplement for mom - $90
Stud fee - $1000

So $3000+ before a puppy hits the ground....then add puppy food....I start off with baby cereal, goats milk, then graduate to at least a pound of raw meat a day, yogurt, goats milk, and Puppy Gold - averaging over $7 a day for 5 pups...times 5 weeks...eventually getting them onto kibble - Orijen at $60 a bag.....

Then registration costs, microchips, adn oh - yes - at least one $300 trip to the vet for puppy exams and 1st shots!

VERSUS

BYB - uses 2 dogs bought from the paper for $300-500 maybe....female comes in heat and - gee let's breed a litter of pups - Lady cost us $400 and we can sell 5 pups and make $2000!!! No stud fee because Uncle Joe has a boy dog! Pedigree?? they are AKC!!! OFA ??? There is nothing wrong with them! look at them run!

no labwork, no travel, grocery store food for all at $30 bucks for 50 pounds....no $45 per container of Puppy Gold, maybe they get puppy shots - so their entire investment in the litter MIGHT be $500....

Yea, we make ALOT of money, I wish!!!! try doing it right and NOT getting pups, losing your female (or having to spay her because she had a wierd ultrasound and vet suspected a tumor) - or doing AI with frozen semen (LOTS more expensive to do and very very high risk of not getting pups!)

Lee


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

webzpinner said:


> Well, it appears I'm just a dumb ******* that shouldn't have a dog, probably shouldn't have had kids, and heck, probably shouldn't even be allowed to breathe, so I'll just go back to lurking, keeping my opinions to myself, a leave all the pretentious goodie-two-shoes to just mock and laugh at all of us who can't afford $4000 for a dog.
> 
> Thanks anyway to those who were trying to be friendly.


Why so defensive? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anyone say anything negatively directly at you or your dog to make you not want to be here. No reason to feel you shouldn't post here anymore. 

Just because you have a different opinion on BYB's as others, that doesn't mean you should stop posting. This would be one boring message board if everyone had the same opinion on everything. You're just as welcome to post here as any other member on the board. This is how we all learn.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

webzpinner said:


> Well, it appears I'm just a dumb ******* that shouldn't have a dog, probably shouldn't have had kids, and heck, probably shouldn't even be allowed to breathe, so I'll just go back to lurking, keeping my opinions to myself, a leave all the pretentious goodie-two-shoes to just mock and laugh at all of us who can't afford $4000 for a dog.
> 
> Thanks anyway to those who were trying to be friendly.


I don't believe you were mocked AT ALL for the price of your dog. You were mocked for the jab you made at the price of dogs sold by reputable breeders and the people that purchase them. I don't believe anyone here stated that there was anything wrong with what you or anyone else paid for their dog. MY dog is a $300 BYB dog and I love her to death, but I would never go that route again. People were simply not advocating purchasing a dog from a backyard breeder. THATS IT!! And I'm sorry you couldn't see that.


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## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

I totally understand people's regard of BYB's and those in favor of NOT supporting them. Before I came to this site after getting Rambo however, I had no idea there was a such thing as "repuatable breeders" vs. "back yard breeders." 

BUT--even if i did, i dont know what I would have done. I couldn't afford 1-2k for a pup, and with the hoops you have to jump through to adopt a dog I couldn't do that either (like the OP I got rejected from two places, based soley on the fact that I don't have a fenced in yard). 

So I dodged a bullet when I got Rambo for $500 from an old farm couple that had been using his line to protect their livestock and farm for many years. his temperament and nerve is definitely up to par with what I would expect from a much more expensive dog. His conformation (up to this point, about 9 months old) is just about spot on--not an expert but I've done tons of reading and have measured him out of curiosity-- and his prey drive is incredible yet controllable. He would chase a tennis ball until he passed out, and hang on to his tug until it killed him if that's what I asked of him.

Overall, I know from this site that I got VERY lucky. Would I breed him? of course not, Unless I did some intense work, training, certs, tests, screens, etc, but I'm not going to go to that length just to get puppies out of him when there are plenty of good studs.

I truly commend the breeders who are doing things 100% correctly, and I believe their prices to be very well justified. But I see where the OP is coming from. I can't imagine not having Rambo, and if weren't for him I wouldn't know what I do now about the dog breeding world, and I wouldn't even have a dog when me and my gf really need one. Couldn't afford to do it the right way, and couldn't adopt--craigslist? I was to leery of that, too many risks.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Here's what I don't get about the "can't afford it" thing. 

$40 a month for food
$20 a month for flea/tick/heartworm prevention
$200-$300 a year for check-ups, shots, medical care, etc.
$100-$150 obedience class
Another $500-$1000 for those inevitable emergencies that pop up like ingesting a sock, getting hit by a car, injuries/accident/illness etc.

It costs easily $1000 to $1500 to own and maintain a dog, whether it's a shelter pet or show dog. Why not put aside some money and save up for a dog? Getting a dog shouldn't be a rush decision anyway; you have to do your research and investigate breeders.

I'm not rich. I drive a $3000 car and don't have cable TV. I take the money I would spend on things like that and instead put it aside to save for things I want. Is that just too old-fashioned? Is it really inconceivable to sacrifice and save for an animal that will be your companion for 10-15 years to make sure you get the best one you can? 

If you really and truly and honestly can't save up $1000 over the course of a year, maybe you should reconsider if now is the best time to buy a dog.


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

webzpinner said:


> Well, it appears I'm just a dumb ******* that shouldn't have a dog, probably shouldn't have had kids, and heck, probably shouldn't even be allowed to breathe, so I'll just go back to lurking, keeping my opinions to myself, a leave all the pretentious goodie-two-shoes to just mock and laugh at all of us who can't afford $4000 for a dog.
> 
> Thanks anyway to those who were trying to be friendly.


Webzpinner,

Thicken your skin a little bit there buddy . My Kain is a BYB dog and I couldn't be happier with him (even if he is considered inferior to the majority here). Ask me if I would buy another pup from the same BYB? Heck yeah, without hesitation. Would I pay $1500.00 for a pup from a 'reputable' breeder? Maybe, if I won the lottery and money was no object. I simply can't justify spending that much on a dog unless I was going to use it to make my living. Alot of people on this board view _all_ BYB's as ignorant, uncaring, irresponsible, greedy entrepreneurs that are only in it to line their pockets (which is true in alot of cases, but not the rule), and the pups they produce as inferior, poorly made replicas of a GSD that are plagued with ailments and priced low enough so that us peasants can enjoy the illusion of owning a purebred shepherd while at the same time contributing to the destruction of the breed. 

Is this how some of the replies make you feel? And they wonder why us little people get all defensive about the issue. Okay, rant over. So, don't go away mad Webzpinner, just know this is the way it is and accept it. This should ruffle some feathers and get some good responses.


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## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Here's what I don't get about the "can't afford it" thing.
> 
> $40 a month for food
> $20 a month for flea/tick/heartworm prevention
> ...


If I were to buy a pup now, then yes I would, and could save up to buy a dog the right way. At the time I bought Rambo, and I think many people are in the same boat here, I didn't know the difference. 

For the uneducated buyer scanning the internet for a dog, why spend more for just a "companion." Most people would think, "I'm not looking to buy a cop dog here." I'm not defending this line of thought, just saying it is what happens.

If the OP is suggesting people should just go ahead and buy from a byb because it's cheaper, i dont agree. But i do love my byb dog and wouldn't trade him for anything.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

Emoore said:


> Here's what I don't get about the "can't afford it" thing.
> 
> $40 a month for food
> $20 a month for flea/tick/heartworm prevention
> ...


I guess it depends on how you view the value of some things. I would spend $1500 on a good dog from a reputable breeder. I'm buying a family member that I hope will be around for at least the next 10 years. My friend thinks I'm nuts, but she would go out and spend $1500 on a purse. I think that's nuts! One purse works just as well as the next, and I'd bet my dog would still be around long after she stopped using that purse.  So I guess this is how people also view the buy/sale of dogs. Some think its worth it and some don't.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Dr89 said:


> If I were to buy a pup now, then yes I would, and could save up to buy a dog the right way. At the time I bought Rambo, and I think many people are in the same boat here, I didn't know the difference.
> 
> For the uneducated buyer scanning the internet for a dog, why spend more for just a "companion." Most people would think, "I'm not looking to buy a cop dog here." I'm not defending this line of thought, just saying it is what happens.
> 
> If the OP is suggesting people should just go ahead and buy from a byb because it's cheaper, i dont agree. But i do love my byb dog and wouldn't trade him for anything.


I agree. Rocky is from a byb as well. I didn't know any better when I got him 9 years ago. I love him more than anything and wouldn't trade him for the world, but he's shy, nervy, and can't be trusted around kids because I'm afraid he might snap at one out of fear. I'm just trying to help keep others from making a similar mistake.




Tihannah said:


> I guess it depends on how you view the value of some things. I would spend $1500 on a good dog from a reputable breeder. I'm buying a family member that I hope will be around for at least the next 10 years. My friend thinks I'm nuts, but she would go out and spend $1500 on a purse. I think that's nuts! One purse works just as well as the next, and I'd bet my dog would still be around long after she stopped using that purse.  So I guess this is how people also view the buy/sale of dogs. Some think its worth it and some don't.


Exactly. How you spend your time and how you spend your money shows where your priorities are.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am far far from rich - I drive a 2004 Surburban with 100K miles on it - traded my 2000 Silverado in (250K miles), and have a 2000 Ecllipse which seems to be in the shop all the time....

I just believe in doing everything as right as I can....

There are alot of less expensive dogs who turn out fine! There are alot of people who win a few bucks on lottery tickets too....that is what it boils down to with BYB dogs - pure luck that the genetic dice came together well....for every one that turned out to be a good companion there are a dozen who have weak temperaments or health problems - I bought Kelsey in 98? 99 for $350 - loved her to death - big silver female (80+ pounds), tons and tons of ball drive, would chase a kong till she collapsed, gun shy, ran blinds and had good grips, stick shy, great with kids, severe immune system problems that cost a ton to diagonse...I sure did love her and so did everyone who met her!!!! But I knew she was not a correctly tempered dog, and spayed her. Some good genetics behind her came through, some poor ones too....recognizing this and not getting personally insulted by it is what is hard for so many people!

Lee


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## Dr89 (Nov 18, 2010)

Emoore said:


> I agree. Rocky is from a byb as well. I didn't know any better when I got him 9 years ago. I love him more than anything and wouldn't trade him for the world, but he's shy, nervy, and can't be trusted around kids because I'm afraid he might snap at one out of fear. I'm just trying to help keep others from making a similar mistake.


I can understand this, and agree. Like I said, I'm aware that I dodge a bullet here and would hate to advise people to go down the same road. "My dog is fine, just find a puppy you like for a good price" isn't the kind of advice that will turn out well the majority of the time.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

ReRun said:


> My only real issue with these quotes and figures is that many people join groups where there are minimal annual group fees, so they aren't paying for individual coaching and paying for private training fees/lessons. Many breeders are to the point that they train their own dogs in a group setting and privately. So all those training fees go out the window.
> 
> Adding in food and treats - well, that's debatable I suppose, but if you're going to have a dog you'll have those costs, schutzhund or not. Routine vet care, again, typical costs of a pet. They may not spend a couple hundred on hips/elbows, though not just breeders x-ray so one could debate that cost as well.


About training fees: Yes, those that can train their own dogs have the better deal. I went to one low cost training venue, and only found out after a year and a half that there was a whole world of things my dog hadn't been exposed to. I went into training with the intent of throwing myself into it, certainly not to get rich breeding dogs (my accountant looks at me like I should have my head examined). I went for the best training I could find. As far as food, treats, and vet care, your point is valid. 



webzpinner said:


> Well, it appears I'm just a dumb ******* that shouldn't have a dog, probably shouldn't have had kids, and heck, probably shouldn't even be allowed to breathe, so I'll just go back to lurking, keeping my opinions to myself, a leave all the pretentious goodie-two-shoes to just mock and laugh at all of us who can't afford $4000 for a dog.
> Thanks anyway to those who were trying to be friendly.


Webzpinner (and allexblake, if you happen to feel the same way), PM me with any question you have and I'll either answer it, or find somebody else who knows. Or just to BS. Unfortunately, there is a tiny minority on this board that seems to think that beating up the new members is acceptable. (Establishing "dominance?") How do I know this? I was subjected to it myself by one "knighted" member. I make an effort to avoid doing that as a result.

My post was merely one man's experience in taking a couple of dogs from zero to Schutzhund I. No criticism of _anyone_ else's dog should be assumed or inferred.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

My $250 BYB ( I refer the term WHOOPS ! ) GSD is sniffing my crotch as we speak under my desk. Out if interest -does a $1500 dog do it any different ? ;-)


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## RazinKain (Sep 13, 2010)

kidkhmer said:


> My $250 BYB ( I refer the term WHOOPS ! ) GSD is sniffing my crotch as we speak under my desk. Out if interest -*does a $1500 dog do it any different* ? ;-)


No, the technique will be the same, but the $1500 dog will be titled in crotch sniffing. CS I , CS II, or CS III.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

RazinKain said:


> No, the technique will be the same, but the $1500 dog will be titled in crotch sniffing. CS I , CS II, or CS III.


 TOO GOOD ! And amen to that............


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

*apparently I have a cheaply bred dog*

then add puppy food....I start off with baby cereal, goats milk, then graduate to at least a pound of raw meat a day, yogurt, goats milk, and Puppy Gold - averaging over $7 a day for 5 pups...times 5 weeks...eventually getting them onto kibble - Orijen at $60 a bag.....

Then registration costs, microchips, adn oh - yes - at least one $300 trip to the vet for puppy exams and 1st shots!

Thank you Lee for mentioning the quality of care that the pups get.
Nutrition or lack of has an accumulative effect that can affect generations . If the dam of the litter had an inadequate diet during her gestational period the pups can be born with health compromises , including underdeveloped organs, reduced intelligence - brain - eye - neural development, and immune problems . Lack of a certain B vitamin (9) (folate - folic acid) can involve neural tube problems , spinal problems which may not show till later in life, cleft palate .
Look at veterinary business --- it's booming . 

At least a breeder will be using breeding stock that has come out of system with sophistication in management.

A good breeder will be critical and thoughtful in the selection of the breeding couple . Careful pedigree study which includes examining many past generations , checking for best possible combinations to avoid orthopedic problems - ZW system , a stamp, OFA. 

What byb does follow up to see how the pups turned out . It's a case of give me the money, here is your pup, see ya . Next . Here is a pup for you , give me the money , see ya. They just keep on repeating an error.

A byb may be totally dishonest in representation of the dogs that they have --- if they offer papers. Not unkown to use "papers" beyond the life of the dog that they belonged to -- not unknown to use papers that don't belong to the dog at all. The breeding stock they have is pretty anonymous . They don't belong to an association or network that will rat them out. Don't care. May have bought an animal with non breeding or limited registration and not care and breed it regardless . Often see ads that read $250 without papers $350 with papers. (made up $$$s for example) . 

No guarantees. No interest . And then the owner of said dog phones a reputable breeder for help and advice and wants to get it for nothing. The fee that you pay a good breeder includes a life long interest in the dog, advice on feeding , training , health .

This summer I met a woman who runs a rescue . They were involved in discovering and getting assistance to raid this deplorable puppy mill . She told me there were chihuahua's with their pups kept in bird cages. This raid was in the local papers. I contributed some kiddy pools so that they could whelp some of the pregnant females that they took in.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

So Carmen.... let me get this straight because this thread is making me pretty dizzy. 

What you're saying is there's more to buying from a reputable breeder than just the price tag?!? 

You mean those titles aren't just fancy letters next to a dogs name on a pedigree and they actually prove something about the dog's temperament and what it can do?

You mean temperaments are genetic and it worth it to go to breeders with years of experience in breeding dogs and understanding why they're breeding the dogs they're breeding?

That HD/ED is genetic and going through a breeder who only breeds dogs with proven generations of healthy hips/elbows is actually worth it and that it may save your puppy from years of joint pain?

That there's actually more to breeding a healthy and sound GSD than just getting two purebred dogs together?! 

But doesn't all that stuff cost the breeders time and money?? Why would anyone want to do that if you could just get any two GSD's and just breed them? Wouldn't that save everyone a lot of time and money?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

can you repeat that ? 

You are right. 

Carmen


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Lol... I can repeat it if you really need me to. 

I'm sure it won't be the last time it's discussed here or in some other thread.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I bought my GSD from a byb, I paid $600 for him.​ 
I love him to death but I will never buy from a byb again.​


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

I bought my GSD from a oops litter. Front yard .$250. I'd buy from the same parents again tomorrow . But then I'd also spunk up the money for Zooper Dooper Von schtonklenburg if it was available here . Which it isn't !


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

webzpinner said:


> Heh... that's why I adopt from Craigslist. I could NEVER in a million years buy from a "responsible" breeder. Paying 300 for a dog is insane to me, let alone $$$$. Jake was born at a responsible breeder's place in Auburn. His original owner worked with a relative of the breeder, and got a discount on Jake because he was a returned dog (couple got divorced, returned puppy to breeder). The owner found out a few months later she was getting forclosed on, so she contacted me, since I was looking for a GSD on Craigslist. She was too embarrassed to try to return Jake, thinking the breeder would think there was something wrong with him, being a 2X return.
> Is Jake the spitting image of perfection? HECK NO. Is he a loving companion, who gets tons of $$$ spent on him? Yuppers. Did I have to buy pee pads, deal with whining & howling all night long? Nope.
> 
> Funny how people say, "don't buy from backyard breeders", but then send people to a rescue, which is filled with backyard bred dogs and puppies. It's the same dog either way. Just kind of an interesting point to ponder.


I think people are missing the point. So here it is plain and simple:
1. Don't support BYB's money making schemes
2. DO support rescue organizations who have trouble homing dogs (especially large ones)

When you buy from a BYB, you ADD to the pool of dogs that could "potentially" end up in a shelter. When you adopt from a shelter you subtract from that pool.

Less money in BYB's hands = less profitable to be a BYB = less BYB's producing dogs with genetic deficiencies or temperament issues.
Less dogs in shelters = less dogs being euthanized, less money being spent on keeping dogs which means more money per dog = (hopefully) better living quarters and less deaths in shelters.

Not to add that when adopting an adult dog from a shelter you can see what the dog is and what temperament / health issues he/she has but when buying from a BYB (or any breeder - when buying a puppy) you are going based on potential and genetic lineage.

Nobody is saying don't get dogs that are from BYB's because they all have issues... what we are saying is don't support BYB's and their discriminatory practices


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## ayoitzrimz (Apr 14, 2010)

I'm definitely NOT saying all BYB's are greedy money hungry individuals, but think about a few things:
1. It's a fact that reputable breeders often LOSE money on their pups if you account for the cost of studs, training, feeding, health tests etc etc
2. A BYB simply doesn't have the resources and often will even forego health tests
3. Good luck paying for a hip replacement surgery.

Now, I bought my dog from a BYB because I didn't know any better so I am not without sin here but I would never do it again and as for the price tag - I spent more money on feeding, vet care, 1am trips to the vet because my dog ate something that made his stomach upset, training, etc etc than I would have on purchasing 2 dogs from a reputable breeder... 

Since these are ongoing costs and buying a puppy from a reputable breeder is a one time cost I don't understand why it's even an issue...

If you cannot afford it (as I cannot) there are plenty of shelters that will happily give you a dog (not talking about GSD rescues here, but rather shelters like the one we have here - north shore animal league). 

Next dog is going to be a rescue, and the following dog will be from a reputable breeder there is no doubt in my mind.

And for anyone who says "well I bought my dog from a BYB and he turned out just fine" well that reminds me of people who say "well I never trained my dog and he turned out just fine" - I tell them consider yourself lucky rather than right.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Do want to add this:

Members on this board will move heaven and earth to try to get people to NOT buy from a BYB and that's fine. Sometimes someone who already owns a byb dog will read these threads and start feeling like they're discriminated against or that people look down on their dog and that's sad that they feel that way.

If any member says something TO another member about their dog to insult them in any way or imply that their dog is a bad dog or somehow inferior, the insulting member should be reported to a mod so appropriate action can be taken.

If you read a thread where we're trying to educate someone not to breed their dog, or to please consider buying a well-bred GSD instead of a craigslist GSD and you got offended on your dog's behalf, sorry.

If somebody insults your dog or tries to make you feel bad, that is NOT to be tolerated and should be reported to a mod.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

You guys have some expensive BYBs!!!
My first dog was $125 with AKC papers... I overpaid because the next week the breeder lowered the price to $75.

I think the care the breeding stock and puppies receive, and the knowledge of pedigrees (WAY beyond titles) is most important.
Did you know that (in humans) it has now been documented that issues with the health of a male can affect offspring? And that poor nutrtion, exposure to pesticides and other occurrences of a mother in _*her*_ childhood, can affect her offspring???


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## Rott-n-GSDs (Jul 7, 2010)

Heagler870 said:


> I just wanted to let those know who think a 200 dollar dog is a badly bred dog should rethink it even though it may be the case more than half the time.


I really think people are confusing "well bred" with "good/great dog." It IS entirely possible to have a GREAT dog, even if it isn't well bred. "Well bred" means something else entirely... something I'm not even going to attempt to get into because I am not familiar with GSD genetics.

Almost every single day, I thank my lucky stars for Luna, my shelter rescue. She has one of the BEST temperaments of any dog I've ever met. She has been relatively healthy... aside from a torn ACL which may not be genetic (could be from the early spay or just a freak accident). I wouldn't trade her for a million dollar dog. BUT it doesn't mean she's well bred. And really... that matters little to me. I simply don't care who her ancestors are.

I don't think anyone's saying that dogs like Luna aren't worth anything because her "purchase" price ($81 shelter adoption fee) was low. Really... would most of us trade our heart dogs for any amount of money in the world? I highly doubt it!

I DO have an issue with buying from BYBs, but many people went through the process uneducated about what that really means. Even if they went into it eyes wide open, it doesn't mean their DOG is worthless. I'd be quicker to berate the human over the dog.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

I never understand these threads when they come up.

It's about maintaining the integrity of the breed. Bottom line. Stop getting your panties in a twist about all these "snotty" people who have too much money to throw around. You supported someone who is not out to improve the breed. It doesn't matter how good your dog is. It's about the integrity of doing things the right way.

There are probably thousands of GSD's in shelters or rescues at any given time in the US. Often times for a fraction of the price of a BYB. I just don't understand the justification of using "well I'm not rich so this is the only way I can get a dog." It's all pure bull poo. 

Admit that you gave money to someone who isn't breeding for the right reasons. Cherish the amazing dogs you lucked out getting. And hopefully next time do things different....if nothing else for the principle of it.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> I bought my GSD from a byb, I paid $600 for him.​
> I love him to death but I will never buy from a byb again.​


Who is to say that EVERY byb is a bad one. Just because they breed occasionally does not mean they don't love the breed and are not very thorough in their research, analysis and care in the process.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

PaddyD said:


> Who is to say that EVERY byb is a bad one. Just because they breed occasionally does not mean they don't love the breed and are not very thorough in their research, analysis and care in the process.


Someone who breeds only occasionally but does their due dilligence with regard to hips, health, titling, bloodline research etc, is by definition not a byb but a hobby breeder.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

PaddyD said:


> Who is to say that EVERY byb is a bad one. Just because they breed occasionally does not mean they don't love the breed and are not very thorough in their research, analysis and care in the process.


Sin's breeders are breeding large over the standard GSD's on purpose. They breed 10 & 11 month old males. They only get pre lims on some of their dogs. At one point they had 5 litters in 2 months. They have "accidental" breedings. They do not title their dogs. They just put 2 dogs together and they now charge $1000 for them.

:thumbsdown:


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Threads like these show that education alone will NEVER stop the problem. People like to say that education alone is the answer but it isn't. As long as large scale internet sites like Ebay have classified ads that allow bybs a place to advertise easily and there are no regulations in place, indiscriminate breeding will continue. 

The fact is people will always justify paying little to nothing for a puppy. And no amount of education is going to change that . And people CAN get great dogs from bybs. It may be a roll of the dice but people can and do get lucky. Most people aren't looking for a dog to do SAR or shutzhund with, they are only looking for a companion and that is what they get. 

I, personally, will always go the rescue route from here on out. There are too many good dogs dying in shelters that need homes for me to pay ANYONE for my next companion. The only people I will be paying is the rescue or shelter my dog comes from. I will be helping to save more dogs that way. 

But I honestly wish people who like to scream "don't by from bybs. IT'S BAD!!!" Would look at the whole picture.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

absolutely . basic darwinian genetics were good for the day and still hold true more or less as a foundation. envelope pushing science is discovering dna and rna changes modified by environment and nutrition - epigenetics , nutrogenomics . 

Here is some information on the sires genetics The Bad Daddy Factor | Smart Journalism. Real Solutions. Miller-McCune.#

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> So Carmen.... let me get this straight because this thread is making me pretty dizzy.
> 
> What you're saying is there's more to buying from a reputable breeder than just the price tag?!?
> 
> ...


Be careful Paul you're a "knighted member" so you'll get accused of being snooty"

I love the fact that those who bought or are ok with buying from a responsible breeder are not saying ANYTHING negative about a BYB bred dog but are against the BYB themselves yet the few all distraught over their BYB dog are bashing the responsible breeders and those who buy from them like crazy and calling them all sorts of names?

For the record those that did the head smashing the brick wall icon were not being immature it's just simply an age old debate that gets old pointing out all the time. 

A VAST majority of people on this board INCLUDING reputable breeders have at one point in their life had a BYB bred dog regardless of it they bought it from a BYB or from a rescue. Alot are still active in rescue and learned the difference and no longer support BYBs. Absolutely NO ONE is saying they are bad dogs they might point out minor flaws that make them not worthy of breeding and passing on the lines but does not in anyway make them a bad dog just not breeding stock material.

I can't believe someone would sit there bad mouth responsible breeders and the peope that buy from them call them snooty and act all holier then thou then turn around and say they aren't welcome when no one said anything negative about them at all god talk about not throwing stones if you live in a glass house or when you point a finger 4 are pointing back at you. 

Yes sometimes it seems like newbies are jumped on but sometimes they also come in with their chest stuck out feeling like the need to "prove" something and those that have been around and with this breed for YEARS feel the need to protect it and get a little over the top but all works out eventually if your willing to calm down and learn.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

what I find ironic is someone who made some noise about the goody two shoes and elitist and snooty is that this person would never go visiting byb's for his next working partner -- because he would be digging in the mother of all mountains of coal before he found his diamond. Hopefully going to a breeder with a track record for producing , is like going to a jeweller with display cases of jewells. 

That's the reality.

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

You roll the dice no matter whether you pay $300 or $3000. Anyone reading this forum will see problems with dogs from all sorts of places/breeders.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

At this very moment on the pedigree data base there is an ad for "black stud" , who has a brother who just got his championship -- so there is good expectation of good competition dogs -- and he may produce black, black and tans and , even blues.
BYB reaching out .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

PaddyD said:


> You roll the dice no matter whether you pay $300 or $3000. Anyone reading this forum will see problems with dogs from all sorts of places/breeders.


You roll the dice when you walk outside of your house and go for a ride in your car too. What's your point?

Where do you think you're taking a bigger chance though? A proven breeder with years of experience producing quality pups that works and health tests their dogs or farmer joe breeding his male and female without any health testing and selling pups for $300 a pop to anyone with the money?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lucy Dog said:


> You roll the dice when you walk outside of your house and go for a ride in your car too. What's your point?
> 
> Where do you think you're taking a bigger chance though? A proven breeder with years of experience producing quality pups that works and health tests their dogs or farmer joe breeding his male and female without any health testing and selling pups for $300 a pop to anyone with the money?


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I agree. But those dice are LOADED. Dogs are not assembled from widgets where each component is pretested - it is NOT engineering so there is always some gamble when dealing with biology and genetics. 

Given the fact that most people feel that a dog that barks at everything out of fear is "protective", there is a lot to be said for working only with people that understand the breed and the dogs behind a breeding inside and out. And the really good breeders are obsessed enough to do that as it is more than putting together two really great dogs who may not complement each other and produce poorly...that takes knowledge and experience.

I think once you have had a really good dog, it raises your expectation when you realize what is truly possible in this breed.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Those members that think we're "snobs" should read this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/152635-good-dogs-non-reputable-breeders.html

I am really sick of the attitude. I am sick of people on this board who are pretty clear about the fact that they don't care about the breed. Why are you on a GSD board then? There are plent of generic dog related boards on the web.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

sagelfn said:


> Those members that think we're "snobs" should read this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/152635-good-dogs-non-reputable-breeders.html
> 
> I am really sick of the attitude. I am sick of people on this board who are pretty clear about the fact that they don't care about the breed. Why are you on a GSD board then? There are plent of generic dog related boards on the web.


Lol... I knew this thread looked familiar.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Those members that think we're "snobs" should read this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/152635-good-dogs-non-reputable-breeders.html
> 
> Why are you on a GSD board then? There are plent of generic dog related boards on the web.


Well ...with Purebred , Hobby , BYB and OOPSTHEBITCHGOTPREGNANT GSD owners all represented here maybe someone should change the name to www.purebredgsdonlynomutts.com ! I think everyone loves the breed but we all got our dogs via different channels right or wrong so let's not all end up like a bunch of youtubing UCLA bimbos sprouting on about noise in the library shall we !


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

Dude, did you just compare me to the racist UCLA student? Not cool :nono:

I have no problem with members here who have BYB dogs, rescue dogs, mutts, mixes, dogs that aren't even GSDs. I have a problem with people who don't care about the breed. That is exactly what I said. The people posting saying there is nothing wrong with supporting bad breeders or breeding bad examples of the breed because "its still a GSD".


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Ok everyone, remember the board rules or the warning/bans start coming out. 

If you can't figure out an intelligent and well thought out way to get your point across, and instead have to be mean and start name calling.... you need to leave the board and come back when you are calmer.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

sagelfn said:


> Dude, did you just compare me to the racist UCLA student? Not cool :nono:
> 
> I have no problem with members here who have BYB dogs, rescue dogs, mutts, mixes, dogs that aren't even GSDs. I have a problem with people who don't care about the breed. That is exactly what I said. The people posting saying there is nothing wrong with supporting bad breeders or breeding bad examples of the breed because "its still a GSD".


Not you specifically Sage....I said "let's not all" . All I am saying is debates about heritage always end up with people standing on soapboxes proselytizing on high. Doesn't matter whether it is dogs,cars,motorbikes,watches or guns. Nothing wrong with a healthy debate mind you ! ;-) . I think it is easy for purebred owners to frown upon owners with anything less and roll out the "don't care about the breed/brand/heritage" line when not everyone is in the position to access or afford the best. S'all I am saying.

And how bad was that UCLA chick ? My god.........


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## vicky2200 (Oct 29, 2010)

Ditto was $350, paid $325 (they gave us a discount since we were about 40mins away) and I think she is great! I would have paid more for her, but Im sure glad I didnt have to. I dont care if everything is perfectly standard, the dog is great.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

vicky2200 said:


> Ditto was $350, paid $325 (they gave us a discount since we were about 40mins away) and I think she is great! I would have paid more for her, but Im sure glad I didnt have to. I dont care if everything is perfectly standard, the dog is great.


Did you read the whole thread?


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## Dogaroo (Mar 4, 2003)

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a $300 dog-- _*as long as*_ the parents have had the relevant health screenings (hips, elbows, eyes, etc.) done & received good scores on all of them, have been proven to conform to breed standards, can demonstrate stable & sound temperament, and have earned _at least_ a CGC (though working/performance titles would be even better). In addition, I expect the breeder to be able to demonstrate knowledge of the breed & its history, list the positives & negatives of the breed as well as their own dogs' strengths & weaknesses, and explain to me what the goals of their breeding program are, how those goals contribute to the betterment and/or preservation of the breed as a whole, and how/why they chose to breed those particular two (sire & dam) with each other.

(I had a little trouble wording that last part. Yes, I have a general idea of why they chose one of each gender to breed together, but that's not really what I was getting at.) :crazy:

With that said.... Kaija is a very poorly bred, non-conformist  _mostly_ GSD who didn't cost me anything (other than a stack of vet bills). I love her with all my heart and don't think there's a dog out there who is better than she is, no matter what their lineage, titles or purchase price. :wub:


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

I just really don't understand why people continue to get the wrong message from those trying to discourage promoting BYB. When I joined this board, I posted at some time that Kaiya came from a BYB and I only paid $300 for her. I thought she came from a good breeder and boasted how he showed me pedigrees and she had V's or VA's in her lineage (didn't even know what that meant but the breeder told me it was good). Not one person told me I made a dumb decision or that my dog was unworthy. And when I later posted her many fear reactive issues, no one gave me the "I told ya so's" or "You should've gone with a reputable breeder." Instead, many members of this board reached out to provide me advice and guidance, and along the way, I came to understand the error in my choice. Would I ever give Kaiya up? Heck no! But I am one of the guilty contributors for why this man is now breeding this pair again, and has purchased 2 more GSD's for whose last litter he sold for $800 each! No health/hip testing. I just don't want to be a part of that anymore. Just think how many other dogs just like Kaiya ended up in a high kill shelter because someone else didn't want to deal with their issues anymore??


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

I'll just throw in my bit of anecodotal evidence about what you CAN get from a byb since many others have gotten my point across well.

Frag came from a byb at 12 weeks. I didn't pay for him, but my boyfriend payed a little over $100 for him I believe. 

He's got a great temperment with people/animals. BUT, his health is another story. He has allergies so bad that he is aggressive with people now. He has joint issues, and it would not surprise me if he got diagnosed with HD by age 5. We're OFA'ing in half a year. He's not built like a GSD at all, and thank god he didn't get his Sire's genes and max out at 115lbs. He's nervous all the time and whiney as a result. At 1.5 years he's absolutely phenomenal at obedience and focus as long as he's not put in a new situation. He has severe seperation anxiety for 3 months through adolescence and destroyed a crate, ex pen, sheet of dry-wall (on the wall) and carpet. 

So, there are good things and bad things about getting dogs for a byb and the chances of these types of dogs coming from a byb is high. I will be buying my next GSD from a breeder to stack the cards in my favor, so to speak. I've spent well over $1000 this year alone testing him and treating him for allergies and other health issues. I'd rather spend that on a puppy and let him lead a happy, healthy life from the beginning. I don't want to risk getting another absolutely loving, protective, fun, intelligent dog, that may suffer his whole life, just because someone wanted to make $100. I love Frag with all my heart, but I wish he hadn't been born and put through all he's going through.


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## Tihannah (Dec 27, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I'll just throw in my bit of anecodotal evidence about what you CAN get from a byb since many others have gotten my point across well.
> 
> Frag came from a byb at 12 weeks. I didn't pay for him, but my boyfriend payed a little over $100 for him I believe.
> 
> ...


Poor baby. I'm sorry that you're both going through all that.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Dr89 said:


> So I dodged a bullet when I got Rambo for $500 from an old farm couple that had been using his line to protect their livestock and farm for many years.


But these people are at LEAST proving the dogs working abilities (and in a practical setting).

Most BYBs don't bother.

There are only TWO types of breeders - Responsible and Irresponsible.

Responsible breeders CARE about what they are breeding. They try to prove the dogs they are breeding are WORTH breeding (health, temperament, structure, working ability). They screen potential owners (not just some with enough $$$) and they are willing to take back one of their dogs at any time.

There are responsible breeders that charge a small price and irresponsible breeders that charge a HUGE price for puppies.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I'll just throw in my bit of anecodotal evidence about what you CAN get from a byb since many others have gotten my point across well.
> 
> Frag came from a byb at 12 weeks. I didn't pay for him, but my boyfriend payed a little over $100 for him I believe.
> 
> ...


_This_ is why I title and health test my breeding stock. I dread the thought of being responsible for having this situation come up with one of my puppies, and do as much as I can to prevent it. I don't want any of my buyers to go through that; I want them to have healthy, happy dogs so that their owners can have as much fun with them as I do. 

God bless the people who stay dedicated to the individual dogs with these kind of health problems.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Tihannah said:


> IBut I am one of the guilty contributors for why this man is now breeding this pair again, and has purchased 2 more GSD's for whose last litter he sold for $800 each! No health/hip testing. I just don't want to be a part of that anymore.


Unfortunately people get caught up in the dollar amount of a dog and not the dog itself. This thread is evidence of that and BYB are getting smart about it and the average consumer thinks: "I paid $800 for him so he must be healthy and exactly what a GSD should be". Heck half the people buying a GSD from a BYB probably don't know what a GSD's temperament is supposed to be (and I am not talking about anyone specifically here on this forum but the general public). 

The price you paid for your dog does not make him well bred and stable. The dog's parents and lineage are what will determine if the dog has a stable temperament and healthy genes and this is why it is so important to go to a responsible breeder that understands genetics and really knows how to read dogs and has lines in their breeding program that have consistently provided sound dogs throughout many generations. OR adopt an adult rescue and what you see is what you get if you adopt through a reputable rescue that has evaluated the dog in a foster home for at least 30 days.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what "jamie" ^^ said.

AND what MRL said,,I will shut down this whole thread if people can't 'debate' vs 'bash'

thanks


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I truly lucked out when I got Sinister.

He has a wonderful temperment, he's everything I ever wanted. He's perfect. But he is tall and lanky, bigger than the standard, has had Demodex Mange twice, he's missing his whole right toe nail on one paw and a year ago there was concern about his hips. I contacted his breeder about his hips and what I was told is that I could bring him back and they would put him to sleep and give me a new puppy!  

I learned what a reputable breeder is on this website. I learned that a reputable breeder cares about their puppies and they will stand by their puppy owners and help them. Not to mention all of the things they do before breeding like titles, health checks, temperment tests, etc.

Now that I know what a reputable breeder is and now that I know how lucky I was to get a good dog from a byb, why would I ever take the chance and buy from one again? 

I'll only buy from reputable breeders from here on out and I try to educate family and friends about reputable breeders.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

My male is nearly 4, from a likely BYB. Great temp, plenty of drive, no health issues at all, very trainable, excellent focus, I think he is very handsome too! He is everything I wanted in my 1st GSD. I would definately be willing to buy from a breeder like his again. More of the hobby type really. I only paid $200, met both parents and really liked them both. Iam actually starting him in tracking next month. We have been doing some agility too! I have absolutley 0 reason to NOT go this route again, other than some folks on the net with their own opinions on what a quality dog is. 

I am not cheap either, I have several exotic birds that I have paid big $$$$ for. I also drive a Mercedes btw.....If my dog had costed $1200, I wouldn't be an happier with him! I would just have a pedigree to boast about. 

I also had a friend who did pay nearly $2k on a showline dog a few years ago from a "good breeder" with screenings, titles, etc. Her dog was a nervous wreck! I didn't like the way his hips were, nothing about him impressed me at all. Plus she had lots of allergy issues as well. Not trying to be rude at all, but seeing him really did not make me feel like paying alot and being particular about breeders was the way to go. I realize this can happen any where, and maybe was just not the type of GSD I wanted.

I also have nearly 4 yo female, shelter rescue. More than likely BYB. She is a gorgeous girl with a gret temperament, but not quite what you would expect a GSD to behave like. She is a bit shy, but also very kind and loving once she gets aquainted, not fearful or snappy at all, just a bit aloof. Very sweeet and easy to handle, would be a great girl for almost anyone who prefers a more calm, mellow dog. Very different energy level than my boy! But I wouldn't trade either of them for anyhting!

I am considering looking into a east German or DDr type in a few years, and looking at breeders. But I am just not sure that Iwould enjoy owning an expensive dog that came from good blood anymore than the 2 I have now! Not opposed at all, but not sure what exactly would make the experience better, aside from guarntees and the breeders involvement. Which, once I pay for my dog, I consider myself the one responsible for that animal. I do not understand the continued involvement from the breeder? Maybe for advice here and there and just in case things don't work out?


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I have had 1 gsd I rescued. Got her at 12 weeks from an idiot who got her from most likely a BYB, the mother was czech lines the father came out of a pet store
The guy was unloading her because she was "crazy"..Well if you were shut in a closet for periods of time, you'd be a little nuts to, said she didn't like 'treat's, hated water, hated kids. I paid "nothing" for her..(the guy lied, she loved the water, loved treats, loved kids

I went in for a rescue to pull her before the guy dumped her. She was a wild thing
I had no intentions of keeping her, but that failed She went on to get a CD/3 straight trials, two HIT's, over 20 agility titles, and a few HIT's in agility..She was ranked #4 gsd in akc in 99 & 00. 

She had a rock solid temperament, but unfortunately she was a structural mess, OCD (knees) , severe arthritis way to soon.

I would not have traded that girl for the world, she taught me more than I can say.
BUT, I am happy to have / had others that I got from reputable breeders that aren't bankrupting me with medical issues. 

I also have a rescue aussie, who has a whole bag of issues, temperment and health. Him I would trade (bad me) but he is my husbands dog

Just saying, the emotional attachment to any dog, has nothing to do with cost, but it makes life less stressful when you have the deck stacked in your favor.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If you had a friend that was going to travel across the states to visit you, you'd want to provide them with the best directions possible. No difference here. The majority of the folks on this forum have had dogs from bybs. They have learned from thier journey and just want to make sure the rest of us who are just beginning our journey can do so with the best directions possible. The information you gather on your journey, and what you do with it is soley up to you.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Lilie said:


> If you had a friend that was going to travel across the states to visit you, you'd want to provide them with the best directions possible. No difference here. The majority of the folks on this forum have had dogs from bybs. They have learned from thier journey and just want to make sure the rest of us who are just beginning our journey can do so with the best directions possible. The information you gather on your journey, and what you do with it is soley up to you.


Excellent post! :thumbup:


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Tihannah said:


> Poor baby. I'm sorry that you're both going through all that.


Thanks. We both appreciate it. 



Hunther's Dad said:


> _This_ is why I title and health test my breeding stock. I dread the thought of being responsible for having this situation come up with one of my puppies, and do as much as I can to prevent it. I don't want any of my buyers to go through that; I want them to have healthy, happy dogs so that their owners can have as much fun with them as I do.
> 
> God bless the people who stay dedicated to the individual dogs with these kind of health problems.


Thanks for helping to prevent this from happening again.


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## Kris10 (Aug 26, 2010)

Gee I would like to start a thread for those who have purchased GSDs from reputable breeders with the question "Do you walk around telling how much money your dog was? How many people do you tell daily..." 

2 other people know how much we paid for Max. My mother and a member of these forums who was interested in my breeder (and I did this by PM)! So sorry, no bragging. I don't know why this keeps coming up in posts by those who laud their BYBs, I guess it makes not buying from a reputable breeder somehow more noble...

I have had MANY dogs and cats throughout my life and Max is actually the first I paid for. The rest: GSD my folks bought, rescues, found, inherited, etc. One of my most beloved dogs was a mutt. I know all dogs are wonderful and loved, but I wanted a GSD this time. 

The titles behind the breeder's dogs are not for bragging rights. They show that the dog I am getting today will have the characteristics of the one I grew up with in the 70's and 80's, and by supporting responsible breeding (and NOT supporting irresponsible breeding) my grandchildren can enjoy one of these wonderful companions in the future. This is my opinion. They show that the breeder thinks enough of the breed to go through the effort of doing this. Are there issues with some of the lines, debates between different schools?-Yes but there are plenty of other threads that go there 

There was a post I just read on this thread where the person acknowledged the GSD they adopted was likely from a BYB and was NOT what you expect a GSD to behave like. They would buy from a BYB again. 

For the record, in the future I plan on rescuing a GSD. I will not ever give money to a BYB.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> *It's not about the price of the dog, nor about whether the dog is a good companion or not, it is about NOT supporting BYB's.
> 
> If someone can't afford a dog from a good breeder, then there are a LOT of dogs looking for new homes, and tons in shelters.*


This bears repeating. And repeating. And repeating.

Purchasing a dog should never be about the price of the dog. You can get very expensive dogs from breeders who do absolutely nothing with their dogs besides breed them. Pet stores are full of them - and at some pretty high prices, too.

Purchasing a dog should be about supporting reputable breeders who care about the breed and about what they're producing, rather than caring mostly about how much money they can make from each litter.

Or, if you chose not to go with a breeder, it should be about helping unwanted dogs find good homes, by going through rescue or shelter. Heaven knows there are plenty of very, very nice, very well-bred dogs available through rescues and shelters.


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## SpookyShepherd (Oct 12, 2010)

My family recently made the decision that it was the right time for us to bring a dog into our home and we'd already known we wanted a German Shepherd since hubby grew up with GSDs. That being said, I've never personally owned a dog in my life... grew up with show Persians and Scottish Folds. I approached getting the GSD the same way I did getting cats, if you narrow down to a specific breed you have an idea of the personality/temperament that you prefer. Of course, there are variations amongst breeders. Some are breeding for temperament, some are breeding to push the boundaries of conformation. After my last Scottish Fold, who came from the latter type of breeder, had to be put down due to severe arthritis at age 12 I knew that temperament was absolutely the most important thing to look for especially as we venture into a completely new species. I put my foot down and said absolutely no BYB. Hubby figured we could probably get a good dog for a cheaper price but I decided I did not know enough about conformation and temperament to feel comfortable. Yes, I know it's possible to luck out and get a happy/healthy/sane dog... I just wanted to stack the deck as much as possible. After much research and quite a bit of emailing/calling around we settled on a breeder. This breeder was able to talk about how the breeding program developed over the years, to include conformation and temperament specifics. The breeder was very articulate in the reasons for breeding those two particular dogs, how they complimented each other, and what to expect from the offspring. I was very impressed with how detailed that information was. It wasn't just generalities of this dog is titled, that dog is titled, the come from XYZ and ABC kennels, etc. The specifics included how the temperaments from both parents were apt to produce a certain type, conformational things in one dog that the other could influence, and such like that. Truly, the price we are spending on this puppy is worth the wealth of knowledge and caring that this breeder is putting into the program and we're thrilled to be getting our puppy soon. In future, would I consider going the rescue route? Absolutely... that's how I got my two current Himalayans. But I had enough experience and knowledge to know what I was getting into with my two guys. 

Anyway, that's my $0.02 on the discussion. I've found this thread to be quite enlightening. Thanks!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Kris10 said:


> There was a post I just read on this thread where the person acknowledged the GSD they adopted was likely from a BYB and was NOT what you expect a GSD to behave like. They would buy from a BYB again.


Or what about the thread where the OP stated over and over how he could never see spending more than a few hundred on a puppy and craigslist was the best place to find dogs.

He got his first dog from craigslist and he turned out great, so why not do it again, right? Everyone told him it was a bad way of thinking and to reconsider, kind of like how this thread turned out. 

He didn't listen to what everyone was trying to tell him and he ended up getting another puppy from craigslist. 

Within a week that puppy was dead from parvo and his other older dog was at the vet with the parvo he caught from the puppy. I think it cost the older dog a few thousand in vet bills and the older one came close to dying too because his owner wouldn't listen to anyones advice.

All because he couldn't see spending money on a legitimate breeder. This is why BYB's will continue to exist.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just this morning I got a phone call , someone looking for a top male for schutzhund . Described the male , his litter mates, offered contact numbers of people who had evaluated them (professionals) and links and contact information to owners , even of owners of the stud dogs previous litter.
Then he said how much ?? "Oh then there not $500 dogs then" and the phone slammed down.
Rude.
But that is what we are up against. 
Carmen
http://www.carmspack


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

to be fair Paul, Parvo does not discriminate , it is not genetic , it can happen to anyone. Very unfortunate though.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

carmspack said:


> to be fair Paul, Parvo does not discriminate , it is not genetic , it can happen to anyone. Very unfortunate though.
> Carmen
> Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


That's true, but for some odd reason, I have a feeling that puppy most likely contacted parvo from wherever it came from. 

It can happen to anyone, but from what I recall, it was within days of bringing the puppy home that it was deathly sick.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> It can happen to anyone, but from what I recall, it was within days of bringing the puppy home that it was deathly sick.


From what I remember the puppy was sick when they brought her home. She wouldn't come out of her kennel until they pulled her out and was very subdued from day 1. Sadly, if they had taken her to the vet sooner maybe there would have been a different outcome.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> From what I remember the puppy was sick when they brought her home. She wouldn't come out of her kennel until they pulled her out and was very subdued from day 1. Sadly, if they had taken her to the vet sooner maybe there would have been a different outcome.


If the puppy did indeed come to that buyer sick and had showed signs of being ill then a reputable breeder would have noticed that the puppy was sick and would have taken it to the Vet before giving it to the puppy buyer.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

gsdraven said:


> From what I remember the puppy was sick when they brought her home. She wouldn't come out of her kennel until they pulled her out and was very subdued from day 1. Sadly, if they had taken her to the vet sooner maybe there would have been a different outcome.


That is true... I do remember that. I wasn't sure if the puppy was just being shy or was sick. I do remember them saying it took hours to even get the puppy to peek out of her crate. 

Not so solid nerves or just bringing a sick dog home. Pick your poison, I guess.


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## Sue Smart (Jul 12, 2002)

I bought Layla from a breeder who shows at Crufts etc. I lost her to CDRM. There is nothing you can pay for a dog that can shield you from that heartache.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

I found my girl at a county shelter, The only reason I meant she didn't behave "like a typical shpherd was that she is really not much of a "guard dog" and not really high energy. She is very friendly, gorgeous, totally bombproof with kids and my other pets, very smart and easy to train. She has been absolutely wonderful, and I would be very happy to find another like her one day. Reguardless of where she came from. 

My male is everything I wanted in my first GSD. His breeder was more of the hobby type, but probbably still considerd a BYB. But I wanted a pet to start with, not a show dog or somehting as high drive as many of the workinglines seem to be. The breeders dogs were family pets, and lived indoors, ate good quality food. I really didn't se any reason not to take him! 

LikeI said before, I am considering and looking at buying a WL in the future, Just really not sure why I would be happier with a $1200 dog vs my shelter dog or my BYB dog. Both of these dogs are healthy and a wonderful part of our family. I have no regrets at all! Not sure where my next dog will come from, but I have no problem buying from someone who takes great care of their animals and the dogs parents are essentially what I am loooking for. If I get a pup with major issues, we will find a way to handle it, whether I decide to go with a reputable breeder, shelter, or hobby typs breeder.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

a hobby-type breeder IS a reputable breeder. They do things with their dogs - obedience, herding, schutzhund, SOMETHING. They prove that their dogs are stable and capable of doing a job. They prove their dogs are healthy. ETC ETC


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

onyxena said:


> LikeI said before, I am considering and looking at buying a WL in the future, Just really not sure why I would be happier with a $1200 dog vs my shelter dog or my BYB dog.


What has been mentioned over and over in this thread and so many other threads just like this one is it's not the individual dogs that are the issue here. It's the idea of what a BYB is and what they do to the pet population by just constantly breeding these dogs no matter what the breed is.

People keep taking offense when they're told why they shouldn't go through these breeders, but its not always the dogs that are the problem, it's the problem that these people are creating by constantly breeding without any regard to anything except maximizing their profit.

What I consider the difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB is the reputable breeder actually cares what they're producing and where they go. They're not just constantly breeding to make a profit.

You may be just as happy with a BYB dog as you are from one from a reputable breeder, but that doesn't change the fact that by giving a BYB your money for one of their puppies that you're supporting everything they're doing to the over pet population and everything they stand for, which isn't much, in my opinion.

If you (or anyone else) is ok with that than so be it. I know I personally would never want to support one with a penny of my hard earned money.


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## sagelfn (Aug 13, 2009)

I get the feeling that many people only care about THEIR pet and don't give a rats behind about the breed.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I, for one, never realized that the breed was in danger and had been so diluted. I didn't know that the WL breeders had issues with the SL breeders, and vice versa. I just thought there were lots of different German shepherds (big ones, smaller ones, mean ones, smart ones etc.). I did go ahead and buy mine from a reputable breeder, but was she a breeder who was making the breed better? I don't know enough to say. But I do know that the breed is in jeopardy, and buying from a guy who lives down the road and has a couple shepherds with puppies is NOT going to help the breed. Even if you get a nice dog out of it, for a thousand bucks cheaper.


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## Verivus (Nov 7, 2010)

It seems like some people are just not understanding that the problem about buying from BYBs has nothing to do with their dogs, but everything to do with supporting an industry that is contributing to the ruination of a great breed. It's heartbreaking how that can even seem remotely okay to some folks.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

Now now. I think this is all getting a bit serious. 

Tsunamis are sweeping people away, Libyans and Bahranians are being shot and tortured and I am sure at least one African nation is probably in the grips of famine.

The sun is still coming up tomorrow


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

Reguarding what GoodKarma said, it is confusing with all the different ypes and all the differring opinions. Just this weekend at a pet expo, I was trying to look at all the GSDs in the show area, and they all varied so much it was like different breeds. It was frustrating too because I was hoping someone would maybe chat with me about their dogs a bit a dn learn what they liked about their type. Even a compliment about their gorgeous dog, not one of them even aknowledged my interest. No I was not talking to them in the ring or anything! So much for learning first hand! I was really hoping for some real knowledge from folks who rasie the kind of dogs worht big money. I really would like to meet some of these dogs in person before I seriously consider paying that much!

However the local K9 unit was very nice and we met their handsome guy and watched his demo


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

onyxena said:


> Reguarding what GoodKarma said, it is confusing with all the different ypes and all the differring opinions. Just this weekend at a pet expo, I was trying to look at all the GSDs in the show area, and they all varied so much it was like different breeds. It was frustrating too because I was hoping someone would maybe chat with me about their dogs a bit a dn learn what they liked about their type. Even a compliment about their gorgeous dog, not one of them even aknowledged my interest. No I was not talking to them in the ring or anything! So much for learning first hand! I was really hoping for some real knowledge from folks who rasie the kind of dogs worht big money. I really would like to meet some of these dogs in person before I seriously consider paying that much!
> 
> However the local K9 unit was very nice and we met their handsome guy and watched his demo


Find your local rescue and ask if they need help at their Meet and Greets or at events. You will meet many types of German Shepherds, see many types of temperament and structure. It really helps!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

kidkhmer said:


> Now now. I think this is all getting a bit serious.
> 
> Tsunamis are sweeping people away, Libyans and Bahranians are being shot and tortured and I am sure at least one African nation is probably in the grips of famine.
> 
> The sun is still coming up tomorrow


...and you'll still have your domestic helpers....

...and there are plenty of other online forums to discuss those issues.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

kidkhmer said:


> Now now. I think this is all getting a bit serious.
> 
> Tsunamis are sweeping people away, Libyans and Bahranians are being shot and tortured and I am sure at least one African nation is probably in the grips of famine.
> 
> The sun is still coming up tomorrow


True, but life goes on elsewhere and you can't stop people from caring about what concerns them. There will always be tragedy but you can't let it paralyze your own life.


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## kidkhmer (Jul 14, 2010)

GSDElsa said:


> ...and you'll still have your domestic helpers....
> 
> ...and there are plenty of other online forums to discuss those issues.


*yawn*


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

It is true . When people phone I ask them what it is that they are looking for . Often the answer is "a" German Shepherd . Male. Black and red.

I tell them there is no such thing as a German Shepherd anymore . Not as a unified , know what to expect , know what you are getting dog. There they american show lines , random no plan in hlel lines , WGsl , WGwl, I won't go into Czech or DDR at this time. Subsets, some with no more recent genetic connections, deviating from the masterplan of the breed standard . 
So when the caller waxes on about how smart they are - I have to say not necessarily - depends how they are bred; how courageous they are - not necessarily depends how they are bred.
All these random and back yard breeders , and I'll include many show line breeders will flaunt the old legend -- can do it all, herd, police, guide , ride on the coat tails of those that actually do and can and make the effort . Some can . But not what they are producing. You will see those words and the von Stephanitz quote about keep my dog a working dog and then completely disregard that .
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> It is true . When people phone I ask them what it is that they are looking for . Often the answer is "a" German Shepherd . Male. Black and red.
> 
> I tell them there is no such thing as a German Shepherd anymore . Not as a unified , know what to expect , know what you are getting dog. There they american show lines , random no plan in hlel lines , WGsl , WGwl, I won't go into Czech or DDR at this time. Subsets, some with no more recent genetic connections, deviating from the masterplan of the breed standard .
> So when the caller waxes on about how smart they are - I have to say not necessarily - depends how they are bred; how courageous they are - not necessarily depends how they are bred.
> ...


You know, Carmen, you make it sound like the BYB and SL breeders are all crap, and that Any WL breeder is doing great things. Is that really what you mean or did I just misread what you said?

I or any dog buyer could go to any WL breeder and get a great puppy for doing anything - pet, obedience, agility, S&R, seeing eye, therapy, K9 work, herding, etc. That is a little hard to believe as you can certainly imagine.

But I am willing to listen.


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## mikezirra (Feb 19, 2011)

Heagler, forget about all the drama and just have fun with your dogs. It's best when dogs can have some sense of duty... be it sports, public service, etc... What do you mean schutzhund is expensive? That's what a club is for. Why don't you come out to the schutzhund club in Fayetteville, and see if it is something you and the dogs will like.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

What the GSD was intended to be rarely is found at the BYB's and increasingly less at a show line breeder as well -- because the criterion for selection is skewed . The former with no understanding or appreciation and no attempt (mostly) dogs are created for monetary benefit . The latter because of the breed split and the heavy emphasis for cookie cutter uniformity for colour and structure , black and red colour.
There was one BSZS where there was one sable entrant, I believe it was Timo Berrenkasten who stood alone as the only sable (grey) dog in competition in a sea of black and red dogs. People stood on their feet to boo him (because of the threat of colour). The dog had excellent proportions , and movement and did a very credible job in the protection. From those that went to see the show I was told he could have competed in the working lines and not stood out as too different.
The dog kept being put up and back , up and back , and finally judge buckled and gave the dog a VA 2 . They simply could not allow him to be the Sieger .
That is a shame because in some games there is only a number one . Many can rhyme off all the Siegers (if you are show lines student) but who is number 2 , exactly. Huge monetary gains go to the number one --- huge business . Price of pups shoots up if they are the direct progeny of such a stellar sire -- as do prices of recently deceased dogs, at least in the days before chilled semen.
The dogs in the showlines just are not bred for work. They have not been bred for sport either. We have seen substandard trial work , recently on this forum thanks to the US Sieger show nationals. Temperament , correct temperament is not a consideration. Highly marketable . Seems every one phones for a blackandredmale as if it were a breed unto its own. You want it -- easy to find .
There are some that are making an effort but if they keep working within the same genetics it can't go too far in improvement. The split in the breed happened because of Canto Wienerau , the foundation of the new show lines genetics , and a flawed one at that . Canto's dam could not pass the temperament test, nor get the hip evaluation. His sister was denied breeding ability by the SV . Canto's temperament was compared to his dam's and very important fact he was very short lived, I believe making it to four years or so. He gave weak heads, weak under jaw, roached backs, fading and pale pigment, cow hocks, loose ligaments, nervousness , dogs that did not withstand pressure or stress (which affects immune health) and I believe he is the source for the shorter life span which the show lines enjoy. So this is the keystone to the show lines ..mmmm we have a problem because of the accumulative affect of inbreeding on this flawed sires line.
The show lines are so crazy about black and red . How many ads on the pedigree data base and in print copy or websites have dogs which look photo shopped or the dogs dyed (yes) . That RED is part of the problem in show lines because it came down through Canto's dams line , a female named Berta , owned by Martin of Wienerau and she was a crazy dog lacking good temperament.
So you want to get the red colour , you put yourself in a sand trap, how do you get out?
Well codmaster there is another group split which has been happening probably over the last decade or so but is at the point where people are taking notice. Ask Cliff he knows . That split is SPORT and then Working . I say this because the sport group in order to be top competitive is looking for a highly energetic , quick to react dog . Easy to do , just accumulate enough dogs known for this and you have it but once again you are narrowing the gene pool and loosing versatility. Because it is competition based there are prominent names , dogs that rise and catch the attention and then everyone breeds to that dog whether it is a good overall match or not. Pups are easy to sell . At least people are concerned for temperament , just is it the temperament that you want? This comes down to a selection process. Are there good breeders -- absolutely . 
Working line different again. Many are trying to keep the overall utility rather than have a specialized dog. Dogs tend to have a stronger nervous base. People that tend to breed for working are actually putting dogs out into the working world. Can you get a good pet / obedience / agility dog ? I can't see why not. Now the rest of your list SAR , seeing eye , therapy , k9 P, and herding can also come out of this breeding program . It is not the case that one dog could dog all or any. There is the need to really understand the nature of the work and then to really understand the dog . There are specific aptitude tests for job suitability . A SWAT or Patrol dog type would not be ideal for seeing eye or therapy, a herding dog in the traditional German style (not border collie) is yet another test for instinct etc. 
I have filled all of these roles . 
A great dog like Bodo Lierberg, and well bred to Bernd Lierberg could easily produce a dog to fill these categories . 

So sorry for the delay in getting back to you - days and nights are very busy. 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is not about who is great, who has crap or anything so simplistic. 

I am afraid that in my experience, what Carmen says, is pretty on. The breeding niche's are real. The decisions that drive the breeding choices make a huge difference in the dogs produced. It is not about who is special, who breeds "crap" or anything so simplistic. The dogs produced tell the story anyway.

Anymore, when someone tells me they want a German Shepherd, I have to find out what they mean by that too because there is such disparity and variety in the breed.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

..and even people putting together GOOD working dogs. Solid proven stock with excellent lines .....so many pitfalls with putting together the RIGHT two dogs so that I have seen some that you think would make great puppies produce a defective litter. 


And I think much of that is because they don't have the knowlegebase of how combinations of pedigrees interact with one another.

I guess it is easy to put together any dogs if you do it old school and just drown the defects but that is not exactly where we want to be either. Instead we just pour our money and tears into them hoping they will be something they can never be.

Why make-em in the first place if you can stack the deck to avoid all that?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

carmspack said:


> What the GSD was intended to be rarely is found at the BYB's and increasingly less at a show line breeder as well -- because the criterion for selection is skewed . The former with no understanding or appreciation and no attempt (mostly) dogs are created for monetary benefit . The latter because of the breed split and the heavy emphasis for cookie cutter uniformity for colour and structure , black and red colour.
> There was one BSZS where there was one sable entrant, I believe it was Timo Berrenkasten who stood alone as the only sable (grey) dog in competition in a sea of black and red dogs. People stood on their feet to boo him (because of the threat of colour). The dog had excellent proportions , and movement and did a very credible job in the protection. From those that went to see the show I was told he could have competed in the working lines and not stood out as too different.
> The dog kept being put up and back , up and back , and finally judge buckled and gave the dog a VA 2 . They simply could not allow him to be the Sieger .
> That is a shame because in some games there is only a number one . Many can rhyme off all the Siegers (if you are show lines student) but who is number 2 , exactly. Huge monetary gains go to the number one --- huge business . Price of pups shoots up if they are the direct progeny of such a stellar sire -- as do prices of recently deceased dogs, at least in the days before chilled semen.
> ...


You are right - very busy also.

And you certainly passed along a lot of your opinions but I think I must have missed something.

I didn't see your response to my original question about did you think that ALL WL breeders were doing the right thing and all their dogs were good and could do anything.

That is exactly what your posting seems to me to be saying. I.E. SL and BYB are doing terrible things to the breed and WL breeders are doing great things for the breed.

Do you really believe that? 

If so, you obviously have not met many SL breeders (or at least the right ones) as a great many of them are breeding good dogs - dogs that are good at many of the traditional jobs of GSD's.

BTW, when you mention one or the other well known dogs of yesteryear (many years ago), are you aware how little impact one instance of the dog or bitch will have on the genetic structure of a present day puppy. One almost needs a little study of genetic inheritance to understand but it is obvious how little influence a single instance 4-5 or more generations back will have. much more legend than genetic scientific fact, I am afraid.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

But I think a point is........it is RARELY a single instance (another one of the rules I think the Martin brothers got changed was the ability to overuse a single stud - something we Americans apparently never had qualms about (cough Lanceoffranjo) 

Even in the BYB the core stock is often very inbred - actually sometimes moreso because people will often breed much tighter than most good breeders dare to.

-------------

And if you go back and read the post it CLEARY says she sees a rift in the WORKING LINES and that not all working lines can work either. I have a friend who used to work for Fidelco, a seeing eye organization. They produced dogs suitable for seeing eye dogs and the ones with too much drive went/go to the Connecticut State Patrol. (SAR folks used to have a chance at getting them but the last I heard the patrol was even taking the females....since then I do think they have made some changes and I don't know where they are now but the ones I met were nice dogs)


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