# Animal Planet - Fatal Attraction



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

There was just a segment on a woman who kept a pack of 9 wolf-dogs in her backyard in a pen. They eventually killed her, but guess that's kind of obvious from the title of the show.

ETA I shouldn't post before my brain kicks in. My question was: They had a woman saying that it's not true that crossing wolves with dogs makes a good pet. I know that is true, but she also said that you see it in all cross-breeds. That if you have a dog that is a mix of say, retriever and working breeds that the dog will be confused and have behavior problems. I've never heard of anything like that and just doesn't make sense.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the woman who said that was the Executive Director of Wildlife Science Center. She just said "If she was a female wolf, the second one of them made a dominant move she would have grabbed that animal, thrown him to the ground and bitten his nose. Since she didn't, that proves that she didn't know anything about the behaviors of these animals" That isn't an exact quote, but close enough - I can't type that fast.
But a scientist saying that wolves do alpha rolls?
It's very sad, they keep showing all the dead animals stacked in a pile/int he back of a truck. Another case of the animals paying the price for human stupidity.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Wolves DO in fact do alpha rolls. Pack life has a structure for a reason and though supposed experts say alpha rolls dont work, in a pack structure in the wild, they're golden. If something happens and other body language ques dont get the message across such as growling, barking, snapping then an alpha roll gets pulled out of the hat so to speak. 

in regards to the mixed breeds get confused statement.... she's full of it. dogs lean towards the more dominant breed in their genetics in most cases but will have quirks of the other breed or breeds. Dogs dont know they're mixed. Yes, they'll have drives instinctive to the breeds they're mixed with that can occassionally conflict but whats dominant will usually be what they go with instinctively.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I know that wolves can alpha roll, but the advice that the woman should have done it to her wolf dog?? she was basically saying that the woman would have been perfectly safe if she had only rolled the hybrids. 
I see that I said it wrong in my post... again, shouldn't post before my brain is engaged. There are very few instances where wolves need to do rolls in a stable pack. 

The real world of a wolf pack is an entirely different universe than a pack of 9 hybrids penned in a suburban backyard. A human is naturally weaker than a canine, esp a pack of them. Suggesting that she alpha-roll a dominate hybrid in the middle of the pack seems completely asinine.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

I saw that episode.

I think it's all BS. They make everything sound worse than it really is (not about the poor lady's death) because they need to boost the show and make it more dramatic.

My neighbor has a Malamute/Wolf mix, it is very well behaved and he is sweet. 

Do you remeber Cesar Millan's episode with 2 Wolf hybrids? They had some bad behaviors so Cesar stepped it and fixed them. With the proper training and a lower percentage of wolf in them, they make good pets.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Being an executive of a Wildlife Science Center doesn't mean she's a scientist or an expert on wolves/dogs. The comment she made about mixed breeds being "confused" sort of makes me doubt her knowledge. That has got to be one of the silliest things I've heard in a long time. Really I don't believe that hybrids are "confused" either, more that people who own them are confused as to what to expect. Hybrids in general make very poor pets but luckily, the majority of so-called hybrids people keep as pets have been misrepresented. Most are just Northern breed crosses or extremely low percentage hybrids.

For factual information on hybrids I always suggest Wolf Park's page: 

Articles: Wolf Park - Wolf Hybrid Articles

Info (not everything works because they are currently updating): Wolf Park - America's Other Controversial Canine, the Wolf Hybrid


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I was just floored, and it wasn't just a NyQuil haze.. I can't imagine anyone who knows ANY dog behavior to go into a pen containing nine canines (any type) that have lived as a pack and alpha roll one of them. Even people who believe that a daily roll is important to keeping your dog in his place have never said go into a pack and roll the first dog that gets pushy. Any pack of carnivores will fight to protect one of their own. As soon as she was on the ground the pack drive would have taken over and that would be the end. Obviously, that is the outcome in this story as well.

Guesstimating from the size they looked in the pics, I'd say that they weighed in at 50 lbs easily. The "alpha dog" looked maybe 80? I mentioned the woman's title since they put her forward as an expert on the behavior of wolves. I hope that no one decides to follow her advice. 

Note: I'm not wanting a pro/con debate on alpha rolls. I do debate the sanity of wading into a pack and trying to gain/keep control of a pack in that manner. From the things said by the owner's friends, she never tried to be "in charge," proudly pointing out which dog was the Alpha of the pack. It seems that she believed that they would accept her into the family as another submissive female and that she could live within the pack. 
If that is the case, 1) she is crazy and 2) the idea that she roll the alpha hybrid is even crazier. She would be no match for him physically and her trying to suddenly push her way would result in a fight that she could never hope to win. Not to mention that it would be only a matter of time before the rest of the pack joined in. There was also evidence that in the time leading up to her death that she had become afraid of the pack. Yet another ingredient in the disaster recipe.

On the "cross breeds are confused" notes, I actually laughed out loud. Maybe it was the NyQuil, but I had an image of a GSD/Husky cross pacing in circles "Do I want to herd? Do I want to run? Am I a husky? Am I a shepherd?" Perhaps laying on the couch talking about his identity issues and how, as a puppy, he never fit in with the other dogs at the park....
I CAN see a bit where there could be more conflict in a dog/wolf hybrid. The natural instincts of a wolf would be more fearful of humans, esp if the dam was a higher content or otherwise unnervy, while the dog side would have a natural instinct to be more trusting of humans. It's not entirely nature, but those basic fears are partially genetic and so opposite that it could make for a more skittish dog, not necessarily "confused" 

So, in the end, I don't think it matters really if the animals were wolf-hybrids or mixes of the northern breeds. They had lived their entire lives as a pack, though with some human interaction. They were allowed to make their own rules and develop their own community. When it came to the end, they reacted as a pack - whether they viewed her as a human outsider or as another canine who tried to take over the pack is a moot point.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

HAHA!!!! The image of a husky/GSD mix laying on a couch in a therapists office whining and crying about how horrible his childhood was because the other puppies made fun of him and how he was picked on in high school and how his mother always 'dogged' on him. haha funny. love it. 

There is a guy in england who i would count on more for his knowledge on wolves than anything. He lives and eats with the wolves. everything. I mean this guy gets down and dirty in the bloody fray with a kill and all. He has a knowledge of pack order that most experts say they have but dont fully comprehend. I'll see if i can find his name. It was really late when i watched the show so i was zoning in and out but i love wolves (favorite animal followed by tigers) so naturally it caught my attention.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> I was just floored, and it wasn't just a NyQuil haze.. I can't imagine anyone who knows ANY dog behavior to go into a pen containing nine canines (any type) that have lived as a pack and alpha roll one of them. Even people who believe that a daily roll is important to keeping your dog in his place have never said go into a pack and roll the first dog that gets pushy. Any pack of carnivores will fight to protect one of their own. As soon as she was on the ground the pack drive would have taken over and that would be the end. Obviously, that is the outcome in this story as well.
> 
> Guesstimating from the size they looked in the pics, I'd say that they weighed in at 50 lbs easily. The "alpha dog" looked maybe 80? I mentioned the woman's title since they put her forward as an expert on the behavior of wolves. I hope that no one decides to follow her advice.
> 
> ...


I agree with this last paragraph.

She let them be the leaders, she gave them control, I dont think she spent enough individual time with each wolf/dog and in the end she got what was coming to her.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

i now i lady who has three wolf/shepherd mix and they are the sweetest dogs i have ever met. but she is dominant, you can tell when she gos in their kennel they all come up tot her and sit before her. she has never laid a hand on them, but is very confident and stern with her movements and words


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## Wilhoit (May 17, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> There was just a segment on a woman who kept a pack of 9 wolf-dogs in her backyard in a pen. They eventually killed her, but guess that's kind of obvious from the title of the show.
> 
> ETA I shouldn't post before my brain kicks in. My question was: They had a woman saying that it's not true that crossing wolves with dogs makes a good pet. I know that is true, but she also said that you see it in all cross-breeds. That if you have a dog that is a mix of say, retriever and working breeds that the dog will be confused and have behavior problems. I've never heard of anything like that and just doesn't make sense.


I met one instance of a cross between a Border Collie and a Golden Retriever in Petsmart that completely contradicts what was said about mixes. This dog had the biddability of a really good Border Collie with an unusually calm, steady disposition. The dog's temperament was one of the finest I have seen. His owner said that as an eight week old puppy he had pretty well taught himself to heel off-lead. His temperament was magnificent--no "conflicts," every aspect of his personality seemed to harmonize with the others. He even had a handsome, harmonious appearance, sort of like a medium, small German shepherd cross. My guess would be that when we see crosses with poor temperaments, the poor temperament is inherited from one or both of the full-breed parents.


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Every time I try to watch this show my heart starts beating real fast and I get a chill up my spine. It's the perfect show to watch for upcoming Halloween. 

You know, I was watching football last night and NC State has a real wolf as a mascot. He looked just like my friend's Malamute/Wolf, except in color.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I was picturing the dog on R. Lee Emory's therapist couch. lol
NyQuil, a fever, and no sleep can give some vivid imagery, I tell ya that


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

LaRen616 said:


> She let them be the leaders, she gave them control, I dont think she spent enough individual time with each wolf/dog and in the end she got what was coming to her.


 It likely had nothing to do with them being "in control" or not. Captive wolves can and do act predatory towards humans in the wrong situation. Or if my understanding is correct and she "alpha rolled" one of them, she went into the group and started a fight by getting physical with one of the animals. Regardless of what people want believe about alpha rolls or physical correction in a dog/wolf's natural setting, it would never, ever happen out of the blue. Dogs and wolves communicate through posturing and threat displays before anything turns physical. If an attack happens out of the blue, no one can be surprised when the animal gets defensive. 

Hard to say for sure, I didn't even see the program but nothing being posted here really screams out that the owner was killed in a struggle for dominance.



mssandslinger said:


> i now i lady who has three wolf/shepherd mix and they are the sweetest dogs i have ever met. but she is dominant, you can tell when she gos in their kennel they all come up tot her and sit before her. she has never laid a hand on them, but is very confident and stern with her movements and words


 There is every good chance that this person's "sweetest dogs" have absolutely no wolf in them at all. The misrepresentation of domestic dogs as wolf hybrids is extremely widespread. Most people who believe they have a wolf hybrid have nice northern breed mixes. And that is certainly for the best, although it does tend to give people the idea that wolf hybrids can make really good pets "if they're raised right". 



Dainerra said:


> I CAN see a bit where there could be more conflict in a dog/wolf hybrid. The natural instincts of a wolf would be more fearful of humans, esp if the dam was a higher content or otherwise unnervy, while the dog side would have a natural instinct to be more trusting of humans.


 That seems believable but plenty of domestic dogs are very suspicious, nervous and/or untrustworthy around strangers. Some breeds have been selected to be standoffish or even aggressive towards strangers. It would seem that the average dog doesn't have a natural instinct to be trusting of humans. More often than not puppies who are raised without much human contact are naturally fearful of people. What domestic dogs and all domestic animals do have is a tendency to retain juvenile characteristics, to easily learn to accept handling, to be less reactive, easily startled or panicked. These things give them a higher threshold of the fight or flight instinct and a higher bite threshold. By crossing wild and domestic animals, you will often see some more "wild behavior traits" return. These can include a lower threshold before the animal's fight or flight response kicks in, increased neophobia, increased resistance to being restrained/handled and a lower bite threshold. I don't think such animals are "conflicted" though, they are just reacting the way instinct tells them to react. Interestingly, selective breeding has given us dog breeds who maintain more or less juvenile behaviors and more or less wild behaviors depending on the jobs they were selected for. Comparatively, most sporting breeds retain a lot more juvenile characteristics and herding breeds, more wild ones. Although compared to a captive wolf or coyote, both retain more juvenile traits.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

Why is everyone surprised that there would be bad information in a show that airs on Animal Planet? This is the wonderful network that brings us great shows such as Dogs 101.


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## Aescleah (Mar 28, 2008)

The problem with this show is i think it has a political agenda peta's. i think they want to paint everyone who has these animals as a bunch of loons, who are alienated from society nor can they cope with it. including repile owners or anyone with exotic pets. i watch this show every week and it honestly concerns me, not that i own any exotic animals but not everyone who owns a exotic animal are humanizing their exotic pets or social misfits. infact i would not own a wild cat, wolf or any reptiles, but i have studied what it would take and decided its more work then i want to deal with, and for most people thats were it should end right there, but there are a few people who can and do just fine. i do not want animal groups or politicians deciding whats good for me and what is not. 

Ashley


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Aescleah said:


> The problem with this show is i think it has a political agenda peta's. i think they want to paint everyone who has these animals as a bunch of loons, who are alienated from society nor can they cope with it. including repile owners or anyone with exotic pets. i watch this show every week and it honestly concerns me, not that i own any exotic animals but not everyone who owns a exotic animal are humanizing their exotic pets or social misfits. infact i would not own a wild cat, wolf or any reptiles, but i have studied what it would take and decided its more work then i want to deal with, and for most people thats were it should end right there, but there are a few people who can and do just fine. i do not want animal groups or politicians deciding whats good for me and what is not.


 I agree with this. Haven't seen the show or many other recent AP shows but the channel does seem to have a stronger and stronger AR slant. I caught one of the "animal hoarding" programs and it concerned me in much the same way. And this is the channel that at one point opted to feature a city with BSL for a season of their animal cops shows, complete with AC officers justifying why APBTs (even baby ones) had to be killed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This whole topic irritates me. In my county a few years back this yayhoo has a bunch of wild things, and his bear gets out and attacks the lady next door. Her daughter, I think a pre-teen had to lure the bear off her mother with balogna. 

So we cry, why can this guy OWN a bear??? 

And we find out, to have AS MANY wild things as you want, all that is required is a permit that costs 40$. If you want a kennel license, it costs $50.

There are NO regulations as to the care or confinement of the beasts. 

Ok, so all the AR groups are trying to push legislation through to go after dog owners and breeders, and nobody does anything about wild critters.

Wild things are better left in the wild.

They have limit laws for dogs, not so your wild things. 
They have dangerous dog laws, not so for wild things.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

GSD Fan said:


> Every time I try to watch this show my heart starts beating real fast and I get a chill up my spine. It's the perfect show to watch for upcoming Halloween.
> 
> You know, I was watching football last night and NC State has a real wolf as a mascot. He looked just like my friend's Malamute/Wolf, except in color.


NC's mascot is not a real wolf. Its a Tamaskan, a wolf like breed without the wolf. I know of the people who own the dog too. I am on a forum and it was a big issue for them.


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## KAKZooKpr (Jul 6, 2002)

selzer said:


> This whole topic irritates me. In my county a few years back this yayhoo has a bunch of wild things, and his bear gets out and attacks the lady next door. Her daughter, I think a pre-teen had to lure the bear off her mother with balogna.
> 
> So we cry, why can this guy OWN a bear???
> 
> ...


Many states do have laws about owning wildlife. There are different levels of permits and you are supposed to follow USDA guidelines on housing & care. I agree though that people should not be able to own wild animals. Most people can't even care for dogs & cats properly.  There do need to be stricter laws and it needs to be every state.

Kristina


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## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> NC's mascot is not a real wolf. Its a Tamaskan, a wolf like breed without the wolf. I know of the people who own the dog too. I am on a forum and it was a big issue for them.


Okay, thanks for clearing that up.


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## Good_Karma (Jun 28, 2009)

I know a person who lives on my mother-in-law's road that owns a freakin' mountain lion! I couldn't believe a person can own an animal that dangerous.

Wonder if he can get homeowner's insurance?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I personally feel that as long as people are able to care for the animal, they should be allowed to own whatever they want. Like with most things, there are already laws in place for this sort of thing but the laws are not enforced. In most cases, "More laws!" really isn't what is needed.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

KZoppa said:


> Wolves DO in fact do alpha rolls. Pack life has a structure for a reason and though supposed experts say alpha rolls dont work, in a pack structure in the wild, they're golden. If something happens and other body language ques dont get the message across such as growling, barking, snapping then an alpha roll gets pulled out of the hat so to speak.


In a wolf pack, a lower-ranking wolf will roll on their back and submit voluntarily-- the higher ranking wolves do not go around flipping other wolves forcibly on their backs. The submissive wolves roll over on their own. Flipping another wolf (or dog in a dog pack) is much more likely to be an aggressive gesture in a fight rather than a way of exerting dominance. 

Pack structure of wild wolves is not at all the same as a captive pack of unrelated wolves where there are likely to be issues of stress and aggression and fighting within the group (and so you might see a wolf flip another wolf, during the course of a serious fight.) The old studies which most people reference regarding wolf behavior were done on captive packs, not natural wolf packs and are now generally regarded as not being accurate behavior of a wolf pack. In a wild pack, the wolves are not constantly fighting to be the "alpha." The alpha pair is usually a mated pair and are the parents of the rest of the pack-- they did not become "alpha" by fighting their way to the top, they are the leaders because they're the parents of the rest.


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## Copper (Nov 21, 2011)

This show takes random attacks and blows them wayyy out of proportion. Wolfdogs are not dangerous, not even pet tigers are dangerous if you know what you're doing.


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## Copper (Nov 21, 2011)

AgileGSD said:


> I personally feel that as long as people are able to care for the animal, they should be allowed to own whatever they want. Like with most things, there are already laws in place for this sort of thing but the laws are not enforced. In most cases, "More laws!" really isn't what is needed.


Agreed.


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## Moxy (Aug 3, 2012)

Good_Karma said:


> I know a person who lives on my mother-in-law's road that owns a freakin' mountain lion! I couldn't believe a person can own an animal that dangerous.
> 
> Wonder if he can get homeowner's insurance?


That person is insane! You can't tame a mountain lion. One day, it will eat them.

Pretty ironic you posted this. My dad just published a wildlife thriller about a mountain lion. It's called "Cougar." Your post made me think of it.


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## Moxy (Aug 3, 2012)

Hit the send button prematurely.

Personally, I think people who own wild animals are setting themselves up for disaster. You cannot "own" or tame a wild animal. IMO, the animal has instincts they will eventually return to. Such is the case with bears, cougars, wolves, lions, tigers and the like. Plus, it is not possible to care for them properly in a backyard or without the proper training. These animals should either be left in the wild or in a zoo.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

you can not deal with wolves as if they are dogs , and , you can not deal with dogs as if they are wolves.

there is a great divide.

are you familiar with Shaun Ellis , a British researcher who for the sake of study left the comfort of his tea by the fireside to live WITH the wolves .







The Man Who Lives with Wolves: Amazon.ca: Shaun Ellis, Penny Junor: Books another view 



 
Their social life is very complex , not the simplistic just put on your boots and go in and roll the alpha and you have supremacy .

Wolves belong in the wild. 

quote Wolfdogs are not dangerous, not even pet tigers are dangerous if you know what you're doing.  --- how many people do not even know what they are doing with DOGS?

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

Copper said:


> This show takes random attacks and blows them wayyy out of proportion. Wolfdogs are not dangerous, not even pet tigers are dangerous if you know what you're doing.


i think ziegfried and roy might disagree with this school of thought. 

the average person does not know how to care for wild animals. even those that do will tell you, never forget they they are wild animals, one slip up and your dead. 

as for mixed breeds, most are great pets. as with all dogs, some just don't workout.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I hope telling this story doesn't make anyone mad...

I found an orphaned baby raccoon years ago. He was so adorable, and I bottle fed him into great health. Then I found out that nobody wanted him - wildlife center, even - everyone said they'd gas him. I did eventually find a woman who takes in these animals, raises them in packs together, and then relocates them on her huge property. I still don't know if I did the right thing or not.

Anyway, the point is, I had tons (!!!) of people telling me, "Oh, you should keep him!" and I thought that was strange. So I asked these people if they had kept one before. Yup. And what fabulous lives they led. Some of them were left in cages in the basement. Some of them had their claws removed (where they found the idiot vet...??) and some of them were just chased away when they hit maturity and weren't "NICE" anymore.

And not a single one of these people told me their stories with any kind of shame...disgusting!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Regarding mixed breeds you have to separate the mutts who have multiple generations of cross breeding behind them (I think they know what they are doing if you let them) , the so called designer dogs that people pay a fortune for and the hybrids who are a cross between two purebreds. The craziest dogs I see as a trainer are the labradoodles, golden doodles and any other purebred larger breed crossed with a standard poodle. Crossing these two breeds brings out the worst in the offspring. many are out of control and have a low tolerance social pressure from humans. I have seen several litters from herding/poodle mixes and would rather have a wolf hybrid.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Dainerra said:


> There was just a segment on a woman who kept a pack of 9 wolf-dogs in her backyard in a pen. They eventually killed her, but guess that's kind of obvious from the title of the show.


I'm waiting for this to happen to my neighbor 4 houses down from me...she breeds malamute/timber crosses....she's only knee high to a grasshopppers butt and 100 pounds soaking wet and does this all by herself.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

PatchonGSD said:


> I'm waiting for this to happen to my neighbor 4 houses down from me...she breeds malamute/timber crosses....she's only knee high to a grasshopppers butt and 100 pounds soaking wet and does this all by herself.



ok, I'm going to remember that phrase! I love it!!!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Dang it, this thread is from 2010.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

lol I didnt even realize that...


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

might be an old thread, but still worth revisiting.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I don't wanna have to go into the wolf hybrid discussion AGAIN. 

I had one, and they DO NOT make good pets.

However, most of the animals that people represent as "wolf hybrids" have little to no wolf in them... which is good, but also furthers the idea that wolfdogs make good pets.

I know there are people on the board that have wolf hybrids, and will extoll the virtues of such an animal, but I stand by my assertions. They are reasonably safe pets when young, no more of a handful than any high-drive puppy, but once they reach maturity, they can be VERY difficult.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

wolfy dog said:


> Regarding mixed breeds you have to separate the mutts who have multiple generations of cross breeding behind them (I think they know what they are doing if you let them) , the so called designer dogs that people pay a fortune for and the hybrids who are a cross between two purebreds. The craziest dogs I see as a trainer are the labradoodles, golden doodles and any other purebred larger breed crossed with a standard poodle. Crossing these two breeds brings out the worst in the offspring. many are out of control and have a low tolerance social pressure from humans. I have seen several litters from herding/poodle mixes and would rather have a wolf hybrid.


I don't care that this is an old thread, I have to say that comment from today is a load of crap. Any dog who doesn't get socialization, training, ect is likely to be a "bad dog". Poodles and Labradors were crossed for temperament and low shedding to be SERVICE DOGS! Sure, people have taken over and done crappy breeding but have you ever looked at our own breed and how many training issues are in them? Just go look at the boards on this forum. It has nothing to do with mixing the dogs, it has everything to do with them being a popular breed who's (now) main focus is owners with a lack of knowledge for the dogs they're getting into, getting them from bad breeders. People often forget even the purebred dogs (Poodles & Labs since I'm speaking of "Labradoodles") are bred to be hunting/retrieving/water dogs originally. They weren't bred to sit on the couch and be lazy. This is why so many people get the breeds (And others such as our own) as purebreds and have problems; they expect them to be happy with a 5 minute walk 2-3 times a week and that's it. Mixing them and being lazy with them brings out the same result, just as it would be with any active dog. Some of my favorite clients are "Labradoodles".


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Copper said:


> This show takes random attacks and blows them wayyy out of proportion. Wolfdogs are not dangerous, not even pet tigers are dangerous if you know what you're doing.


This is the quote, I thought would be the quote of the day. 

Pet Tigers aren't dangerous if you know what you're doing. I suppose that is true, because if you know what you are doing, you wouldn't have a pet tiger.

And to bring in a praphrase from another thread, if someone down the street had a pet tiger, I would pitch a fit.

The average Joe can't handle a dog, an ordinary dog, herding, terrier, hound. And now we expect people to be able to handle tigers.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the labradoodles were created as seeing eye , guide dogs, to improve the hip problems that straight labs and goldens were coming up with preventing them from entering training. Both Labs and Poodles are compatible being water retrieving dogs in bird hunt . You can get good results if there is an understanding of each respective breeding partners genetics - that they each come from working stock (if you want work). There are some brilliant poodles still bred for work , here is an example , a kennel that I have recommended a few times , and actually would love to have one of the dogs Paris Poodles- Standard Poodle breeder, Labradoodle looking and acting Poodles in red, apricot, silver, black standard Poodles in Vancouver Fraser Valley British Columbia BC B.C. Canada

Generally though little thought is put into mixed breeds or mixing of breeds . A german shepherd crossed with basset hound - true- come on now . At a Woofstock event that I attended there was a dog that was brought up to our booth and since we were close to the stage there was time to chat with the owners waiting for the "Weirdest dog contest". Well one person had a dobermann , dalmation cross and part of the novelty was that they called them Spottymann . Really. Dog didn't look too bad , they are similar in coat , size and structure -- but the dog must have been a health-mess . People take any old lab and any old poodle and through them together. Sometimes the results are decent , and then other times you have horrible horrible confused dogs .

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

members in Ontario will know where Gormley is , just north of Toronto . There was a woman that had a mature adult lion that lived right on the corner of Stouffville and Woodbine . The lion roamed around the yard , feet away from a main street. Later she had to move to a more remote area on an Uxbridge side-line. She was in the habit of driving around , hauling her lion with her in the manner that people bring their dogs along. One day she and the lion appeared in my driveway.


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## Felix's Proud Mammy (Jul 10, 2012)

Felix does about 2% or less wolf line in him. It's below the thresehold they've set to where they can have it in thier blood line but still be papered. The only REAL difference I see is his canines are ENORMOUS compared to other GSDs or other dogs in general. However, he has no aggressive bone in his body!


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## Bear L (Feb 9, 2012)

carmspack said:


> She was in the habit of driving around , hauling her lion with her in the manner that people bring their dogs along. One day she and the lion appeared in my driveway.


Can you finish the story about the lion on your driveway? It's like reading a good book without an ending... that's how I feel right now.


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## stealthq (May 1, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I don't care that this is an old thread, I have to say that comment from today is a load of crap. Any dog who doesn't get socialization, training, ect is likely to be a "bad dog". Poodles and Labradors were crossed for temperament and low shedding to be SERVICE DOGS! Sure, people have taken over and done crappy breeding but have you ever looked at our own breed and how many training issues are in them? Just go look at the boards on this forum. It has nothing to do with mixing the dogs, it has everything to do with them being a popular breed who's (now) main focus is owners with a lack of knowledge for the dogs they're getting into, getting them from bad breeders. People often forget even the purebred dogs (Poodles & Labs since I'm speaking of "Labradoodles") are bred to be hunting/retrieving/water dogs originally. They weren't bred to sit on the couch and be lazy. This is why so many people get the breeds (And others such as our own) as purebreds and have problems; they expect them to be happy with a 5 minute walk 2-3 times a week and that's it. Mixing them and being lazy with them brings out the same result, just as it would be with any active dog. Some of my favorite clients are "Labradoodles".


Absolutely the case. Don't forget, poodles are pretty **** smart, really easily bored, super active and athletic, and therefore always looking for something to do (i.e. trouble to get into). Add to that, poodles aren't a breed that has a general tendency to want to work to please it's owner, unlike the herding breeds. They tend to be more a 'Yeah, I get what you want, but what's in it for me?' breed. Put a dog with those traits with someone who isn't willing to train the dog and exercise the dog? Major bad news.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't agree with your analysis of the poodle -- spent too many summer weekends in freezing hockey arenas competing against them in obedience trials -- sharp as a tack , crisp delivery, resilient. 
and then there were the shelties .
come to think of it GSD were few and far between .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the lion. that was the surprise of my life , seeing it "there" and seeing it "here" totally different - besides we have sheep surrounding us . I called the family who came out of the house incredulous . She rolled down the window , everyone had a scritch , and that was that .
That lion was used in tv ads - (Leon's furniture) magazines, fashion shots . This was back in the early 90s.
My husband loves all animals .
My daughter was at the age of teenage ennui.
My son had already had close contact in the behind the scenes at a Jungle Cat World Wildlife Park hoping to be an assistant . Actually, the owner , Wolfram Klose , ran Havelberg german shepherd kennels . His Axel was an amazing dog . Welcome
That is how I got to know him. Later on he would use "Kilo" 3 or 4 times in breeding . All his dogs were fed the same food and diet that the wolves and hyaenas and lions were fed. I know because I got into the food prep kitchens. There were lion cubs and wolf cubs running around in his house along with GSD pups and dogs . He did , maybe still does, or more likely his son Peter , visits to schools and events for education. The animals were super habituated to people. I had the opportunity to test my young dogs , taking them after hours along the paths to be exposed to large cats , and wildlife . Occasionally one would take exception and rush the cage . Nice to see whether the dog had composure. When I do what I do it is to build the dog never to expose it to the point where it is a problem . It comes to respect and care for the dog.

Somewhere I have a photo of "Kyle" virtually nose to nose with a young wolf - GSD and wolf each around 6 or 7 months . Should put that on the web.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Love me a poodle for training and competing. Hope someday to return to the breed. Started there. Brilliant and charming dogs. The one's I see now are more likely to be comedians and not terribly serious workers. I remember some years ago hearing about a breeding success with some 20 year old poodle sperm. I remember the excitement around that. One of the things mentioned was that inherent poodle-ness had been lost to the breed. Maybe that is so. It has been about 20 years since I owned one.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

carmspack said:


> don't agree with your analysis of the poodle -- spent too many summer weekends in freezing hockey arenas competing against them in obedience trials -- sharp as a tack , crisp delivery, resilient.


I suspect some of the differences are regional. 

I find that most poodles are fairly easy to work with, intelligent, definitely trainable, but also quite stubborn and prone to temporary deafness. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen Standard Poodles running down the street. They just get it in their head that they want to GO, and it's like the brain shuts off, they go blind and deaf, and no amount of recall can bring them back unless/until they feel like it.

I had it happen at my grooming shop once--the guy didn't have his dog on a leash, the dog was sniffing about, the guy called his dog... and the dog just got this wild look in his eye and took off running down the street as fast as he could. Ran right into a car, went rolling, then got up and just kept running. We spent the rest of the day looking for the dog with no success. He was found the next day, tired and footsore but otherwise unhurt, about 2 miles away as the crow flies.

Poodles require a certain kind of training, and many don't do well with compulsion or corrections--they will either shut down, or do the deaf/blind/dumb thing and start running. They are remarkably athletic and flexible, and can be master escape artists. Most of them don't have a mean bone in their bodies (except for the Miniatures in this area--I've had some truly vicious Minis); they are clever and like to play tricks, sometimes at your expense. You really need a sense of humor with these dogs.

They do seem to love to perform, and when expertly trained, their bouncy, high-stepping, snappy obedience makes a very pretty picture.

I have met some poodles I would be happy to own, and some others that you couldn't pay me enough to take. We have a BYB in our neighborhood that has been selling generation after generation of poorly bred Minis and Toys. They all have the same "look"--either red or black, roundish, barrel-chested bodies on long, spindly legs--and about half of them are scared to death of everything. I groom a lot of these dogs. Most of them are nice enough dogs to work with, once they warm up to me and realize that I'm not going to eat them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

KZoppa said:


> Wolves DO in fact do alpha rolls. Pack life has a structure for a reason and though supposed experts say alpha rolls dont work, in a pack structure in the wild, they're golden.


This is not an alpha roll. Further studies have found that wolves submit - one doesn't "roll" the other over.
Barking Mad: Debunking the Alpha Roll Myth

Heh our vet was extolling the virtues of Poodles today. I did not know they were bred/originated in Germany! I always thought France...!? But he said that's because of the "foo foo fancy" cut they always get...called a "French" cut??
Anyway. He said they're quite intelligent and I've always enjoyed the Standards we have had here in foster. He said in Germany they are called "King Poodles". He's from Germany and went to college there.
Awesome vet


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Heh our vet was extolling the virtues of Poodles today. I did not know they were bred/originated in Germany! I always thought France...!? But he said that's because of the "foo foo fancy" cut they always get...called a "French" cut??


The "Continental" clip is the fancy show clip, the iconic Poodle look.

And your vet is correct. Poodles were originally bred in Germany as water retrievers! The crazy Continental clip is a stylized version of the hunting clip, which shaved the coat close except for around the joints.

Even though they came from Germany, they became very popular in France around the 1700's - 1800's (I think), to the point where they became known as the quintessential French dog. To this day people erroneously refer to them as "French Poodles".


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