# Grumpy Growling?



## Jesshika (Feb 14, 2009)

Sammie is a social dog who likes everybody but when he is laying down he will growl at my bf if he kisses him or hugs him. But Sammie is fine with me hugging or kissing him whenever, but he will let out a growl to my bf. But its a very little growl so I take it as he is just tired and wants to be left alone but then Sammie is fine with me doing it because he likes me more or something? Is this growling ok or what should I do? I just told my bf to leave him alone when he is tired, but I don't think he would ever bite him, just letting him know he doesn't want to be bothered?

We have only had him for 3 weeks from the pound so does he just need more time with my bf also?


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

Any type of growling is NOT OK, if he is growling and your allowing it then you are letting him be the Alpha dog or in charge and that growl could turn into a bite. He already has bonded with you and you are his "female" and is submissive to you but to your BF he is bascically telling him he is the boss and that needs to be turned around in a positive manner.


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## acurajane (May 21, 2008)

My lab complains when she is being bothered. If she acts irritated more than that she gets a correction.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

As far as I know, dogs don't have "women."









Chama has always been very growly to anyone but me messing with with her when she's sleeping and sometimes she doesn't like me bothering her either. She has never tried to bite anyone so I've always just accepted it as her way of saying, "Leave me alone, I don't want to be bothered right now." 

I think dogs should have the right to be left alone sometimes. I do not think it has anything to do with dominance as Chama has always been a very submissive dog. Unless it is something other than growling (like snapping) then I wouldn't worry about it.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

My concern of "accepting" it is one day it could be a child that accidently bumps the dog and it could be a bite (you never know) because they are "grumpy". 

Having my own child bite by a dog that required over 70 stitches in his face and the bite was not provoked and not our dog (we were there when it happened) I don't think any type of grumpy behavior should be ignored. 

Dogs do have people that they "prefer" or can consider their own that is why they do protect at this point what she does is accepted and what he does not not accepted. 

Having experienced first hand what a grumpy dog can do I never want to go through that experience again. 

I never allowed grumpy dog behavior in our home even before we had children and we have been through different breeds and majority all rescues. 

Don't get me wrong I don't believe dogs should be bothered all the time to be corrected. I have always taught my kids that when they are laying down or they go in their crate that is there time and to leave them alone. They are never allowed to play in the dogs crate for fun and they are taught what it is meant to be respectful to the tired, sleeping dogs.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am sorry that your dog bit a child that required 70 stitches. I should have been clearer in my explanation above. You want a dog to growl. A growl is a warning that a dog is upset. If you correct out that warning then you may very well end up with a dog that bites, seemingly unprovoked. That is VERY dangerous. This has been backed up by behaviorists over and over again. Correcting for growling is never advised. 

Btw, I do not allow children to approach Chama when she's lying down. They may approach Rafi but not Chama. Although Chama has never bitten, she has made it abundantly clear (despite extensive socialization) that she is not comfortable with such attention.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

The dog that bite my son did growl and then lashed out, this dog had never bit anyone and was 10yrs old, to this day we really don't know what provoked her to do what she did. Since then my son who was an avid dog lover back then really doesn't want to do much with a dog but we did help him get over the hurdle of being scared of dogs, I never lived in fears of dogs and I know so many people that do and what a terrible thing to have is a fear of dogs when they give so much back to us. That is why I am precautious about grumpy dog behavior. 

I have learned not correct the growl here on the boards when I was searching information for Sonny because he is going through a fearful stage (he is a rescue) and I did learn that







and I completely agree. 

So the best thing you can do is use positive reenforcement before the growl even comes so if your BF wants to pet the dog then bring a treat to him and just kneeling down without petting is the best thing first therefore it is positive and then have him just walk away from him without petting.

I have been working very diligently with Sonny and having strangers come over because after a month of having him he started to growl, bark and 1 time he did grab a kid's coat so we went full circle into what can we do to make people coming over (even those he knew from a meeting here or there) very positive and we have a special treat that only comes out during this time. He has made great strides and is doing well on feeling more comfortable with people coming over. When he starts to feel anxious he goes in his crate where he feels very safe but I always want him to met the people coming in so he knows who is here...I know that goes off topic but it is more of an example of how important positive reenforcement is. 

Positive reenforcement should be used in this situation so your BF can gain a positive relationship with him.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I completely agree that positive reinforcement and counter conditioning is the way to go and that there is a reason behind the growling and it is important to figure it out. Sometimes that behavior is indicative of a health problem though so that is worth checking out. Chama's grumpy behavior got much worse last spring and I adjusted her supplements and herbs because she was clearly in pain from her arthritis. Now she is much less grumpy! My point was just that I would rather her give the vocal warning than not. I was bitten in the face and in the arm by two different dogs who gave no warning so that's why I like to make people aware that growling really does mean something. 

If your dog checks out physically then I would have have BF become a treat dispenser and also have other people who come over to your house do the same thing. 

My Basu was a fear biter and never growled, probably because he had been beaten in his former home. It is very common for fearful dogs to become fear aggressive as they gain confidence. However, you can work your dog through this as Basu went through this stage and improved tremendously once he learned we would protect him.


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## elly1210 (Jan 4, 2009)

Another thing I wanted to add to my post but it was too late was that since this dog is brand new into your home (3 weeks) this is when negative behaviors start to appear because now they are becoming more comfortable. Sonny's issues didn't start to appear until the 1st month.

I agree finding out why the dog is growling. In my past dog he was very sick and was in pain that was where is growl was coming from and I knew it was not normal for him to do such things.

For you, it may very well NOT be as dominance issue as Bow said but an insecurity issue that can lead to aggression. If an insecure dog can get away with growling it can get worse and turn into fear aggression. 

So the best advice as Bow said too is your BF needs to be a treat dispenser. How is your BF approaching him, petting him? If it makes your dog feel insecure a growl reaction can occur. 

Have him kneel down and face him sidewise, have a treat in his hand to give the dog, don't pet the dog to wake him up if he is a young dog and he is sleeping and you walk up to him he will know you are there even if he doesn't move, not petting is a great way to bond and make a dog feel secure because he doesn't feel that is forced into something he is not ready for. Have him just talk to him and say hey how are you doing today here is a treat when your BF is over only he gives a "special" treat that he doesn't get from you.

Keep us updated, if you work consistently with this I believe you will see results very quickly (again rule out any other type of ailment such as pain, health issues etc..)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yep, I would Respect the Growl. It is an important form of communication. Our boy only growls at DH, but DH is the only one in the house that will "push things" and invade the dogs' space when they just want to be left alone. I believe, if pushed hard enough, one of them will bite. 

You probably also want to make sure that there is nothing physically wrong -- no digestive issues, etc.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

My first GSD hated hated to be disturbed when he was sleeping or really tired. There were no children in my house, but if there were kids over I would watch him for signs that he was tired and had enough and I would ask him if he wanted to go to our bedroom and he would jump up and head to the bedroom. I would close the door and instruct the kids to not go down the hall.

I think any living breathing thing has limits on tolerance when they are tired. You push those limits and it could cause a problem.

Val


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## Jesshika (Feb 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Elly
> 
> So the best advice as Bow said too is your BF needs to be a treat dispenser. How is your BF approaching him, petting him? If it makes your dog feel insecure a growl reaction can occur.
> 
> ...


Sammie is perfectly fine with petting when he is sleeping or resting, and anyone can just sit and pet him forever and he won't mind, but I just don't think he likes it when his movement gets restricted from being hugged. If that makes sense? Or maybe he feels like he is getting pinned down too much by hugs? 
I've been telling him no if he does growl and then after that he will stop and just try to avoid attention instead of growling, like he will just get up and move somewhere else. Or he will let out an annoyed sigh. It doesn't really bother me, because I leave him alone anyways when he is resting but I just don't want him to growl or bite a kid if they want to hug him. So should I try to give him more attention so he gets used to it more?









I will try to get my bf to give him more treats though if he wants to insist on giving him that much attention.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I think that when dogs are hugged so that it restricts their movement, particularly by male humans, it often makes them uncomfortable. My philosophy is to respect a dog's space -- get them to allow that closeness, but not to push it. DH likes to force the issue, and one day he may get bit becuase of it.

Have you have had one of those people that constantly invade your space when you are talking to them? I can't stand it, and I don't feel just because my dog is a dog, they should have to constantly put up with that either.

It's a balance. However you choose to handle it, I wouldn't correct him for growling in that instance -- you need those warnings.


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## Jesshika (Feb 14, 2009)

It's been a month and a half and he still does growl a little when he doesn't want to be disturbed but usually after he growls he will lick my bf and then put his head back down again, so what does that mean? I don't really mind it as much because I just think he needs his space when he is tired, but I was just wondering about the kissing after growling lol. 
Oh also, I think maybe his teeth might be bothering him more too, he has had the worst smelling breath since we got him and now his gums are looking a bit inflamed so I will see how he is tomorrow after a visit to the vet for teeth cleaning! Thank you all for the responses =)


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

it is well known that our dogs have different barks-could it be they have different growls?If jake just doesn't want to be bothered (very seldom-maybe once a week)he will give a kinda growl but he always has his ears back-submissive and will sometimes roll over.It just seems to me he is saying ARRGH please not right now.


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## dreamofwrx (Sep 20, 2008)

you shouldnt hug a dog anyway, that is a primate behavior, not a canine behavior. It is socially rude to the dog. Similar to never going over the top of the head to pet a dog, they dont like it. I would say that is a good way to get bit.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote:he still does growl a little when he doesn't want to be disturbed but usually after he growls he will lick my bf and then put his head back down again, so what does that mean?


Good observation! To me that sounds like your BF makes the dog a little nervous when he gets too up in his space and so he growls but he's immediately putting out calming signals and trying to be ingratiating - like "we're still friends. Please don't hurt me. I am a submissive puppy." 

I cannot tell you how often fearful behavior gets misidentified as dominance these days. It's rampant and often catastrophic for the dogs. 

I think you're on the right track with this guy - check out his teeth and make sure there are no medical reasons he's feeling uncomfortable, and then give it some time with BF building trust, respecting his boundaries, and showing him what a good guy he is. A lot of rescued dogs trust women before they trust men because typically it's men that have been rougher with them in their past (not always, but usually). On top of that, if you're the one spending more time with him, he may just know you better. I think this will resolve itself as he gets used to your BF.


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

> Quote: you shouldnt hug a dog anyway, that is a primate behavior, not a canine behavior. It is socially rude to the dog. Similar to never going over the top of the head to pet a dog, they dont like it. I would say that is a good way to get bit.


I think that's good advice for an unknown dog or a dog that appears fearful but is kind of an overstatement when applied across the board. Plenty of dogs enjoy being hugged and will actually put their head under your hand to encourage them to pet them there. All my dogs love being petted on the top of their heads, regardless of which one of us initiates it. 

To me, it's mainly a matter of reading the dog's body language and working out a means of interacting that works for them and helps them feel safe.


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## Jesshika (Feb 14, 2009)

Turns out he does have gingivitis and his teeth are bothering him a bit, so we're going to get a professional teeth cleaning in a few days. But I know he does like to be hugged and given attention to a lot of times since he will nudge his nose under everyone's arms trying to get attention. But of course there should be a limit of hugging lol 
I was reading more about the growling issue and a lot of people say its a dominance thing too, but I don't think that's the deal with Sammie, he's the most submissive dog I've had. He even submits to my cats!


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Nothing about this dog sounds dominant and I think your instincts are right on. "Dominance" is a big buzz word right now and people think they know what it is, but most of those people are wrong unfortunately. Fear is much more common and much more likely given the rest of the picture here. 

One way I sometimes try to explain doggy communication is like this - imagine you had about 50 words and you had to communicate everything you needed to say using only those words. You'd end up doubling up a lot right? A word might mean one thing in one context and something else somewhere else. This is the dog's situation. They can bark, growl, do different things with their ears, their tail, lick their lips, jump etc. But they don't have thousands of words in their vocabulary. So a behavior like mounting can be sexual, but it can mean dominance, it can also just be an invitation to play. It has a lot of different meanings. Same with growling - growling can be playful but it can also mean "hey, stop that. I'm warning you." And the warning in itself has different meanings - it can mean "hey, stop that you pesky kids. Don't make me put the smack down on you" (dominant) or it can mean "I am frightened and I don't like what you're doing. Please please stop! it's making me very uncomfortable" (submissive and scared). 

As humans we tend to want to put a one to one relationship between a behavior and a meaning (sit means sit) but when we ask dogs to do the same with their own behavior we short change the rich and dynamic way that they actually communicate and more often that not, we miss the boat on what they're trying to tell us.


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