# Feeling discouraged, distraught, and a little panicked



## telavivgsd

Please be gentle everyone on what may have been a huge mistake on my part, but I'm really in need of some advice. You can skip this background info if you want, I just thought Id give it. I've posted in the past about some issues with Klaus (7.5 mo), notably a couple times when he would jump up and bite on me when he was apparently frustrated on walks (note that the behavior wasn't really aggressive, more mouthy/pushy). We got some great advice, and using that, NILIF, and ditching the positive only trainer for some more serious group obedience classes, we've made some real progress. Klaus' training has been going well, he's become more confident, and much more respectful of boundaries. 

His dog reactiveness is pretty much gone, though he still gets a bit afraid if approached by multiple dogs at once, so that's something we avoid. He's even made some dog friends and actually really likes playing with other dogs one on one. He is still nervous sometimes, though less so, especially when walking on streets at night with just me without my husband. 

He also has some guarding issues - e.g. if my husband and I sit someplace he will often bark at dogs, and even sometimes humans that try to approach. We've been working on it, and so far it has only ever been aggressive sounding barking never real lunging or snapping, and I felt that was also improving. I did have to stop taking him to work, because sometimes when coworkers would knock on my door or enter suddenly, he would bark aggressively (though he was tethered to me so there was no real danger). It was a bummer because I like having him there with me, but I understand not every dog is built for every situation and that's not good for him or the workplace. We also live in an apartment building, and since he was about 5 m/o, he has barked when he hears people in the hallways. All of our neighbors have dogs so they're understanding, but it wakes us up sometimes and I'm sure they don't think it's ideal. We actually bought a bark collar for this for bust traffic times but haven't used it yet. 

So here's the problem: tonight at about midnight, Klaus was snoring on the floor next to our bed when people started walking through the stairwell. He started barking, we told him quiet after a couple barks and then he went into that loud kind of baying aggressive sounding barking. I got out of bed half asleep in the dark and went to him to put him in his crate. I was annoyed and saying "Klaus no" as I walked toward him, and as I got to him (I don't think I touched him but can't remember, it would've been his flank gently if I did) he turned around and started snarling at me. He's a vocal dog, so I'm used to barks and sighs and groans, and even expressive growls, but this was like a movie sound effect vicious snarling that I've never heard from him. Something in the primal part of my brain told me to back the **** up, and as I did, he advanced towards me still snarling. I said to him "Klaus it's me," thinking he may be confused/startled, and my husband jumped up turned on the light and went to him saying "Klaus no" and Klaus turned and snarled and advanced at him too. I've mentioned in the past that my husband is like crack to this dog, he's absolutely obsessed with him, so I was floored. He grabbed him by the collar anyways and pulled him over to his crate and put him inside. Within minutes Klaus was back to snoring. 

I was absolutely shocked and so upset as was my husband. In general Klaus loves people, and if he was ever to be truly aggressive to a person, I would expect it to be fear based, and I take precautions for that, but he showed no signs of being afraid when this happened. It was as if he was a completely different dog. I understand his issues outside our home, and I try to always be a step ahead of them. But inside our home and with just my husband and I, he's our goofy, playful, cuddly, sometimes super annoying as all puppies are, boy. To act aggressively towards us, especially my husband, is the last thing I would expect. 

I will note that he didn't bite us, and he easily could have, but this was in no way acceptable behavior. I will also note that the only time I saw something similar was early one morning a month or so again when he woke up barking at someone in the hallway, and I reached for his collar to take him to his crate and he let out a short growl at me. It was definitely not of the same caliber, and at that point I stopped grabbing his collar as much as possible, and never in negative situations as I realized that was stupid of me. Also, we were away for 10 days, and got him back from the pet sitter on Sunday, who was a trained behavioralist and has a GSD, so not an inexperienced guy (just in case that has any bearing on people's opinions). 

I'm sorry for the novel, I'm just so upset right now, can't sleep, and feel like this might be some incurable character flaw in our dog. At the same time I feel it's my fault, and I'm making excuses that it was dark, he had been sleeping soundly right before, maybe he was confused, I shouldn't have approached him like that, maybe the newer training is too aggressive (in the vein of the Koehler method, though toned down a bit, and he is not a soft dog) and he feels he needs to defend himself? I love him so much and we've been trying to do everything we can to help him with his issues. My husband rightly says that this kind of thing cannot happen towards us especially - his interactions with the outside world we can limit and control if we must, but this we can't so much. 

I thought we were responsible by getting him from someone who really loved his GSD and looked for a healthy titled dog to breed her with, which is about the best breeder situation you'll find here for the most part. I recently found out though that his father, who competed in schutzhund, bit a woman shortly before he died (from a snake bite). I didn't get any details but now that's adding to my anxiety that this may be genetic. 

Please any help, advice, anything is appreciated. I feel like I've failed as a dog owner and I'm pretty distraught, so please be a little gentle.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Well let me just jump in and say I really don't think you have failed your dog. I also am not at all sure I understand what the dog was thinking when this happened, but the backstory you gave does not make me think you guys have been negligent causing this sort of thing to happen.

I can only imagine hoe upset I would be if this had happened to me.

My old male did stalk my husband with intent one night. My husband had gone down to the barn and I didn't know thst and let the dogs out to potty. My dog saw my husband in the dark by the barn and went for him. My husband yelled out "Ruger, it's me!" And the dog immediately quit.

My pup was very overtired and we had dinner guests one night, people he had never met prior to that night. He eventually fell into a very deep sleep on his dog bed and when one of our guests walked through the kitchen he woke up and did one little woof and then looked sheepish...my impression was that he woke up to a semi stranger across the room and then as he came all the way to remembered he had met the guy earlier.

So to a much lesser degree I have experienced dogs being confused in the dark or waking up from a deep sleep. 

Beyond that it is certainly worrisome and I am sorry you are going through this. Hopefully someone who knows more than me will chime in soon.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Oh but one thing if you haven't thought of it already would be to have him start sleeping in his crate at night so there is no chance of a repeat performance while you figure this out.


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## telavivgsd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well let me just jump in and say I really don't think you have failed your dog. I also am not at all sure I understand what the dog was thinking when this happened, but the backstory you gave does not make me think you guys have been negligent causing this sort of thing to happen.
> 
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> I can only imagine hoe upset I would be if this had happened to me.
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> My old male did stalk my husband with intent one night. My husband had gone down to the barn and I didn't know thst and let the dogs out to potty. My dog saw my husband in the dark by the barn and went for him. My husband yelled out "Ruger, it's me!" And the dog immediately quit.
> 
> 
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> My pup was very overtired and we had dinner guests one night, people he had never met prior to that night. He eventually fell into a very deep sleep on his dog bed and when one of our guests walked through the kitchen he woke up and did one little woof and then looked sheepish...my impression was that he woke up to a semi stranger across the room and then as he came all the way to remembered he had met the guy earlier.
> 
> 
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> So to a much lesser degree I have experienced dogs being confused in the dark or waking up from a deep sleep.
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> Beyond that it is certainly worrisome and I am sorry you are going through this. Hopefully someone who knows more than me will chime in soon.




Thank you for your kind words, it means a lot. Initially I figured it was like the situation with your husband, where if I told him it was me, he would stop. If that had been it, I wouldn't be so concerned and would just be kicking myself. But even with the light on and both my husband and I clearly in front of him he continued, so, like you say, it is really worrisome and upsetting. I do so appreciate your support though!


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## gsdsar

I am so sorry this happened. It must have been very scary. 

I think there were somethings you could have done different. But hindsight is always 20/20. 

He woke from a sound sleep, was probably frightened by the noise and acted defensively, then you get out of bad and "storm" into him aggressively. He was already wired. And he reacted back to your actions. 

It's not acceptable. It's scary. But I would not assume at this point that he is deeply flawed or inherently aggressive. 

You and your husband need to come up with a plan in case the situation happens again. My first thought would be to do something, or make a noise that will snap him out of his barking fervour. Then call his name happily, once he responds to that, then get out of the bed and lead him to his crate. Avoid grabbing at him or charging into him. 

I would also contact your trainer. Let him know what happened and come up with a plan. It may involve using less forceful techniques in some situations. Doing some freeshaping and positive reinforcement based behaviors. Mix up the tools you use. 

You have done a really good job so far. You have taken advice and worked through a lot of issues. Good for you. Don't beat yourself up. 

Also, you may just want to crate him at night. Avoid the issue all together until you have worked with your trainer.


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## selzer

Crate him at night. Work with him when he is in his crate. Try to teach him when he alerts, say "Ok, that's someone," Then say "Enough." You will need to teach him that "Enough." means to stop a behavior. you can do this with treats, and train him to jump up on you, Hupp, treat when he gets up, then OFF, treat when he gets off. Do this several times, and then say, Enough! If he tries again, Eh, enough! and turn away, ignore. Again, play with his ball, let him chase it, after a few minutes tell him, "Enough." Use enough for several things. 

In the crate when he barks at someone, tell him, Ok, that's a person. Enough, and when he stops give him a nice, meaty, raw bone to work on and say "good boy, good Quiet". Turn off the light and go to sleep. 

Basically, you are letting the dog know you know about whoever it is on your hallway. And, you are letting him know that you have it covered. Then you are telling him to cut out the barking by saying, ENOUGH. You can use quiet, but it is hard to enforce quiet. You can praise with telling him Good Quiet. Enough means stop whatever it is you are doing, done. Done playing, done barking done jumping up.


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## LuvShepherds

It may be as simple as that he wasn't fully awake and didn't realize it was you.


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## melissajancie

I have no words of wisdom but just wanted you to know that this would have scared the snot out of me and I can understand why you are concerned and worried. I do hope that you can get this issue resolved.


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## voodoolamb

I'm addition to the suggestions of crating him at night... you may want to bring him into the vet for a full check up.

There are more than a handful of medical conditions that have increased aggression as a symptom.

Sudden aggression to loved family numbers in what is still a pup is unusual. 

I would want to rule out any medical causes first.


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## selzer

Most of those issues, though, health issues that might cause aggression, don't generally hit a youngster of 7.5 months. I originally thought epilepsy. But, that usually strikes a little later, around 2 years or so. 

The pup is starting to grow into his big boy voice and ears. He is still young to be a teenager. Not that he wanted to challenge his owners, but he might be more likely to challenge people in the hall. Again, young for true protectiveness, but not for alerting. Lots of dogs will have a period about now when they get into the barking, stupid stage. 

Keep up with your NILIF. Learn how to give him a strong command, like KNOCK IT OFF! without making it sound worried, anxious, or angry. Strong is more like strong sharp words, but backed with confidence that he WILL do as you command. It is not angry or fearful. Dogs to not trust angry or fearful. Dogs trust confidence. Dogs mis-trust crazy and chaos. Dogs trust calm, confident leadership. Never permissive, always follow through, realistic demands.


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## voodoolamb

selzer said:


> Most of those issues, though, health issues that might cause aggression, don't generally hit a youngster of 7.5 months. I originally thought epilepsy. But, that usually strikes a little later, around 2 years or so.


My first thought for a medical cause was actually along the lines of a pain causing developmental issues... Laying down for long times can increase soreness with some of those. If he was startled out of sleep... idk. I'd still want to do a physical just to rule out all possibilities.


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## Cassidy's Mom

gsdsar said:


> Also, you may just want to crate him at night. Avoid the issue all together until you have worked with your trainer.


I would absolutely do this. Our dogs have always slept in their crates in our bedroom at night - they still do at 8 and 11 years old! 

Another suggestion regarding barking in reaction to sounds, I have asthma so I have an air cleaner in the bedroom. You can buy fancy ultra quiet ones, but I like the white noise that mine puts out, it does a great job of masking sounds. We don't hear dogs barking outside, traffic noises, sirens, and neither do our dogs.


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## Chip18

Aww ... gezzz are we so bad that relatively recent mentions, feel the need to ask for restraint from the "collective???" When they feel it's uh ... "crunch time" as it were??? That ... is kinda sad ... and I feel kinda it's kinda "inaccurate??" Frankly these days ... it seems most of the rancor it seems to me ... is generated from the "Usual Suspects" towards the "usual Suspects??" The "OP's" tend to get "lost" in the "Dust Ups!" 

My particular "bias" is that I don't really look at the owners?? I only "focus" on the issue "at hand" I'm not really into the "touchy feely" kinda" thing,... as someone on here "once said" it's not what you say it's how you say it."  

Sparring "owners feelings" may help them feel better but it won't help them with there dog?? So yeah by and large ... I don't bother trying ... that does not make me "Right" but it does make me me. 

To wit ... the barking thing at "nothing" is "crap" the dog ... was a ticking time bomb ... sooner or later ... there was bound to be "Blow Back!" Apparently it was "never addressed" "fully" it was just "lived with??" But "this time" ... "the crap hit the fan as it were!" And the obnoxious barking was an "issue!" 

"Blame" the "Kohler" guy if you will ... but as I often say to people that do the "private trainer" thing ... the dog "lives" with you 24x7 .... a "private trainer" can only do so much. The dog barked at nothing ... "you understood" he did this and you choose to "live with it" and not "address it" and this time ... that did not work out so well??? 

Lesson one ... the "Crate" it's a "tool" if..." it is needed or not depends on the dog?? If a dog has "no behavioral issues" then the use of a "Crate is "optional??" If a dog does have "Issues" not so much ... if the dog had been in a "Crate" ... none of this would have happened. 

You "apparently" have a "Bark Collar" and chose not to use it?? Well ... if a dog "has a barking issue" you have three options "address" it with a tool, ((Bark Collar) address it directly (leash corrections in our out of the Crate) or live with it?? You "seemed" to have chose the last option "until You didn't???" 

And your husband and the dog ... got "lucky!" My standard advise when dealing with a dog with "issues" is to use a "Drag Leash!" A short leash with the handle cut off (for use indoors) so it does not get caught up on furniture ... puppy or dog ... I'm pretty big on not having to "lay hands on a dog "to correct them!" 

So blame the dog or the trainer if you will ... but as I see it ... the dog had an issue that was "never properly addressed??" Put the dog in a "Crate" at night ... tie a rope around the "Crate" and if he "barks ... for "nothing" yank the crap out of the Crate! His "behavior" "Barking" in the "Crate" has "consequences" ... "let him figure it out." Or screw it ... go full Michael Ellis on him! If he continues to bark ... flip the whole freaking "Crate over!!" Yeah "ME" ... did that! Most likely ... a bad day for him but it worked ... that dog ...shut the heck up, ... "Problem Solved!" 

Frankly "ME" gets on my last nerve... but I luv'ed that one! Simple direct and to the point ... "How you like me now!" So yeah ... "I'm not big on the touchy feely approach ... I "Like to keep it real" for the "Dog! And yeah as they say "talk is cheap" but ... you best belive ... that if I had a "dog" that chose to "Bark" for freaking "No Reason???" He'd not be doing that "Crap" long! 

Aww well ... "that's just my two cents" ... I'll let it go at that.


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## Pan_GSD

telavivgsd said:


> Also, we were away for 10 days, and got him back from the pet sitter on Sunday, who was a trained behavioralist and has a GSD, so not an inexperienced guy (just in case that has any bearing on people's opinions).


i have no advice to offer except aggression towards owner is something that i won't tolerate
i absolutely love my dog and give him the best i can 
my feelings will be severely hurt if my dog were to lash out at me with aggression
luckily that hasn't happened and i have no reason to believe it ever will in the future

just throwing this out there
i think you are saying you haven't observed this behavior prior to the pet sitter watching over your dog during your 10 day vacation
maybe something happened?


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## cliffson1

How do you know there wasn't a good reason in the stairwell for him to be barking in the first place....which led to you telling him no and trying to shut him up. I'm not sure there is anything wrong with the dog!


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## Deb

I agree with Voodoo and Luvshepherds. Take him to a vet and rule out anything medical. I think anytime a dog has a sudden drastic change in behavior any possibility of a medical reason needs to be ruled out of the equation.


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## selzer

Deb said:


> I agree with Voodoo and Luvshepherds. Take him to a vet and rule out anything medical. I think anytime a dog has a sudden drastic change in behavior any possibility of a medical reason needs to be ruled out of the equation.


Yes, and no. I think one can expect some changes of behavior at some points in development. A puppy can go from being happy go lucky to more suspicious and aloof. 

Aggression toward owners is seriously odd. It won't hurt to get him checked out physically. But pain in joints or pano from growing is not goig to bring out that strong of a reaction. And some form of epilepsy/sleep-brain-disconnect, well, unless the dog starts seizing in front of them, they are not going to be able to diagnose it. 

For a change in behavior are you going to spend hundreds maybe a thousand for an MRI on the brain? I wouldn't. Not at this point. Partly because the chances of it actually showing anything other than a possible brain tumor are slim. 

I would not take my 7.5 month old to the vet for this, but I suppose a lot of people would. Some dogs sleep deeper than others, mine are usually up while I am still stirring -- they are awake and know who I am. Another dog might not be. 

I came into the house with a new toy for my pup yesterday, so I put it around the doorway to her area and shook and played with it -- it covered my hand pretty well, and my 11 year old girl started barking at me. I got into full view (she's kenneled with the werewolf). She still barked strongly at me. Good old Babs! I talked to her. Maybe Babs' eye sight is a little worse than it used to be, and her hearing. Darn. But I am not going to take her to the vet because she barked at me. Her nose should have told her who I was. Well. I am not going to take her, not because I think she has a tumor, but because I can expect some changes in sight and hearing, and possibly olfactory. I dunno. She was fine when I talked to her. 

This dog's response is much different. But they have been having issues with the puppy and are changing management style and seeing some improvement. Good. But this puppy is still growing, and changing developmentally. I would go the trainer, management, leadership route. I don't think they should throw in the towel. If the dog presents more incidents of seeming not to know them, when making sure the lights are on and giving the dog time to wake up while crated, if it seems to happen out of the blue, then getting an MRI to see if the dog has something going on in the brain, may be what will ultimately happen. 

Besides brain tumor, there is rage-syndrome, which seems related to epilepsy. Why I originally thought epilepsy is because it can happen when the body is shutting down in sleep. It can have triggers. A dog coming out of an epileptic seizure can be disoriented, afraid (possibly fear-aggressive), and may not immediately know his people. But he is young for that.


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## voodoolamb

selzer said:


> Besides brain tumor, there is rage-syndrome, which seems related to epilepsy. Why I originally thought epilepsy is because it can happen when the body is shutting down in sleep. It can have triggers. A dog coming out of an epileptic seizure can be disoriented, afraid (possibly fear-aggressive), and may not immediately know his people. But he is young for that.


I've been reading so much about epilepsy in dogs the past 2 months I think my eye balls just might fall out. 

I wouldn't discount epilepsy as a possibility just because the dog is young. I commonly see "stats" of idiopathic epilepsy occurring between 6 mos and 5 years. Atleast one study has found that the mean age for juvenile onset epilepsy in dogs was 6.9 months. 

Juvenile Epilepsy in Dogs | Clinician's Brief

But I digress.

Chances are that this is nothing more than a pup that was confused, anxious, or maybe just getting a little too big for his britches. But I think brain storming all possibilities can't hurt. On the remote chance it is something medical - if it happens again and the new training regime isn't "working", I'd hate to see the owner giving up just because they didn't know that it could be a physiology thing instead of a psychology thing.


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## Muskeg

I agree with Selzer on the medical side of things, and also it doesn't sound at all like a drastic change in behavior, just a continuum of what the owners were seeing earlier. 

My dogs recognize me and people they know from far away, I don't know if it is smell, body language, or both but my dogs have recognized friends before I have, from a great distance, many times. If they are in the car, my dogs see me coming from a ways away and are watching. My dogs wake from a sound sleep and know me or others. My dogs have on occasion been in extreme pain and haven't lashed out at me or come after me. Dogs don't get confused easily, at least I've never seen it. 

I guess based on my experience, I don't agree that a dog can wake up confused, or that this is pain or medical related. 

I do think that confrontation-based or maybe weak, ineffectual corrections by an inexperienced handler can lead to this type of behavior, in the right kind of dog. Doesn't mean the dog is confused at all, he knows exactly what he is doing. Living in an apartment can unfortunately be a pretty stressful experience for a protective minded dog. Hard to say what out there is a "threat" and needs alerting and what doesn't. 

Dog is doing his "job" as he sees it, and then the owner comes at him and the dog either doesn't respect the owner, has no outlet or other recourse, or sees the owner as a threat to his (the dog's) safety from whatever is making noise out there and reacts in a manner the dog considers appropriate.

Easiest way to solve this problem would be to crate the dog at night with a bark collar. Seek out an trainer's help and build a solid relationship with the dog. Avoid, wherever possible, confrontation based type corrections. I'm not saying avoid correcting, but don't make it into a "fight" with the dog, unless you know exactly what you are doing. 

Sorry, OP. I think you have a more challenging dog, and as a handler you need to educate yourself and/or manage the dog (as it sounds like you have, for example not bringing him to the office anymore). 

This is a fairly serious behavior, however, and you do need to address it and make sure the dog is not allowed to get away with this, because it could be very dangerous, and it does need to be dealt with by seeking out the help of an experienced trainer.


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## Stevenzachsmom

One of my dogs, Natty Boh, is a hound mix. He has quirks. One of them is that he gets very weird at bedtime. He has gone off on us with his snarkyness. He barks and growls. Like others have said - definitely have your dog sleep in the crate. Once Natty Boh is in his crate, which he enters readily, there is no more interaction. We don't look at him, talk to him, or God forbid - open his crate. By morning, he is a different dog. Perfect. No snarkyness. 

One thing about sleeping in the crate, my dogs generally do not react to outside noises, while in their crates.


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## telavivgsd

Thank you so much everyone for responding. I apologize that I wasn't able to reply more as you were responding, but it was night here and I was (finally) asleep. I'll try to respond to each person in one post!

gsdsar - I think you're right that we really need to change our approach to his barking. Obviously it's easy to respond annoyedly when you're trying to sleep and you know the sound in the hall is no threat, but clearly that doesn't work here. We will see our trainer this weekend (he he been out of the country so our classes have been with his less knowledgeable apprentices lately) so we will talk to him about it. He's just a little "old school" I guess, but the best we could find here for our situation, and I'm afraid his advice about this particular situation will be to respond forcefully which, while it may work for him, might not work for us. Thank you for the support. I guess we will go back to crating him at night - we had stopped because A. Now that he doesn't come to work he's crated for 5-7 hours during the work day so I feel bad and B. He moves around a lot when he sleeps and it makes noise in the metal crate. It's better than what just happened though. Thank you again.

selzer - we will start working on "enough" right away. I can tell you off the bat this is going to be difficult for him, because ending training/playing/things he wants to do is one of the biggest struggles with him in our training but we will start working on it. When he barks at noises during the day, I've tried to initially be like "ok I hear it" and after a couple barks say "that's enough, good job" and call him to me so in the same vein of what you're saying, but I didn't teach "enough" well enough and it's harder to take this approach when you're as grumpy as I am when woken up, but I will try harder - I am at risk of sounding angry in my commands at that time. Thank you for the advice and I'll start working on it. 

LuvShepherds - that's what I would like to think, but he had been standing by the door barking for a few minutes at that point, and was super alert, so I'm just having a hard time believing that, though I guess it could be. Thank you though. 

melissajancie - thank you so much. I've never been afraid of this dog, so it really threw me off.

voodoolamb - that was one of the things my mind first went to, though he's never shown any other signs of pain, but also because he sleeps a bit weird - loud snoring all the time, like an old man, and a lot of moving around. That said, most days he wakes up from this kind of sleep, trots over to my side of the bed, licks my face, and then flops over for a belly rub or, if I'm already up, wants to play straight off the bat. We will discuss taking him in though, thank you.

Cassidy's Mom - Thank you for the suggestions. I wrote above why I hadn't wanted to crate him at night, but I suppose we will just have to go back to it, especially for now. I'll try to combine my husband about the white noise machine, though I'm not sure how successful I'll be 

Chip18 - The trainer seems to be of a belief, which I see as a kind of cultural thing here, that a dog barking at outside noises is a great thing that shouldn't be corrected, but I'll talk about it with him. Klaus does bark at the noises even from his crate, but the crate is farther from the door, so he hears slightly less and he can't run to the door to continue his barking so it's easier to get him to settle. We hadn't used the collar yet because it seemed that since we got him back from the dog sitter his barking had suddenly mostly stop. He would just let out a few low "woofs" when he heard something, which is fine with me, until suddenly the barking was back in full force last night :/ We definitely should get a drag leash - it's something I've been meaning to do since I've made an effort to stop grabbing his collar. Thanks for reminding me - I'll get one stat!

Pan_GSD - the thought crossed our minds - my husband's immediately, but I guess we'll never really know. The guy came well recommended, so I hope that wasn't the case :/

Cliffson - our building has only 7 apartments and I know the people in all of them. What he was barking at was two girls who (while annoying at midnight) were talking normally between them as going up the stairs. We also have like no crime here (hope I'm not jinxing us) and he does it for each person in the stairwell most of the time, whom I can usually recognize by their voices and which apartment they go into. Thank you though, you make a good point. 

Deb - I think we will, especially if something similar happens again. I do also agree with selzer, I'm not sure we could justify something like an MRI just yet. This dog has had a lot of vet visits and we have to protect our finances set aside for his medical care as much as possible, but I'll discuss with my vet if she thinks it's necessary. My mind also went to rage syndrome as it's something I had read about and this seemed so out of character. He needs to go soon for working so I'll ask about it then, thank you. 

Muskeg - I do feel that it is kind of a drastic change in behavior, because while he has been stubborn and a jerk, he's never been blatantly aggressive towards us, but maybe you're right and it is a continuation. We hope to move to a house in the next year or two Gd willing, so that would also help with this issue. I felt that we had made a lot of progress with him respecting us, and it seemed apparent in other aspects of our daily life. He still has his stubborn teenage moments, but in general he's been much more obedient. We will talk to our trainer about it right away and see what he says too. I also do not want to make this into a fight with him, that's something I've aimed for in our training, as, frankly, size and strength wise I would likely lose. 

You bring up something I was wondering about too - should we start using the bark collar at this point. If he is fearful when barking in our apartment (which he doesn't appear to be, especially compared to other circumstances, it really does seem to be guarding, but obviously I'm not an expert), could this escalate the behavior and make it worse? I'll will work ok other approaches too, like what selzer recommended, but should we use the collar too?

Thank you to everyone, I really appreciate it. I'll be taking what you all say to heart and will start working hard on it. We would never give up on him unless we thought he was truly and irredeemable danger, which we of course don't think yet. I just know handler aggression is serious, and not something to be taken lightly.


----------



## telavivgsd

Stevenzachsmom said:


> One of my dogs, Natty Boh, is a hound mix. He has quirks. One of them is that he gets very weird at bedtime. He has gone off on us with his snarkyness. He barks and growls. Like others have said - definitely have your dog sleep in the crate. Once Natty Boh is in his crate, which he enters readily, there is no more interaction. We don't look at him, talk to him, or God forbid - open his crate. By morning, he is a different dog. Perfect. No snarkyness.
> 
> One thing about sleeping in the crate, my dogs generally do not react to outside noises, while in their crates.




Sorry, you must have typed this while I was typing my response. Yes I'm afraid it's back to the crate for bedtime, at least for now. He's usually pretty cuddly at bedtime, but as I said the only other time he's ever growled at me (to a way wayyy lesser degree) was also when he had just awoken to an outside noise, so you could be onto something. He does still bark when in his crate, but less so. Thank you so much for your response.


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## Sabis mom

Years ago my neighbor had an old husky cross that was an absolute sweety. But if you woke her she came up like demon dog fighting for her life. 
I would definitely crate your dog at night. And I would absolutely be consulting a vet and a trainer. I don't think your dog is flawed. Startle me when I'm sleeping and I come up swinging. It takes a few seconds for our brains to wake up.


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## Chip18

telavivgsd said:


> Chip18 - The trainer seems to be of a belief, which I see as a kind of cultural thing here, that a dog barking at outside noises is a great thing that shouldn't be corrected, but I'll talk about it with him. Klaus does bark at the noises even from his crate, but the crate is farther from the door, so he hears slightly less and he can't run to the door to continue his barking so it's easier to get him to settle. We hadn't used the collar yet because it seemed that since we got him back from the dog sitter his barking had suddenly mostly stop. He would just let out a few low "woofs" when he heard something, which is fine with me, until suddenly the barking was back in full force last night :/ We definitely should get a drag leash - it's something I've been meaning to do since I've made an effort to stop grabbing his collar. Thanks for reminding me - I'll get one stat!
> Man ... as of late ... there just seems to be a "rash of people getting crappy advise from trainers???".
> 
> Actually "paying someone for bad advise" is kinda a sore point for me ... but you know instead of going "off" as it were on the barking thing. I'll just explain what I do and expect.
> 
> In general ...none of my dogs are "Barkers" a dog that barks at every freaking thing ... is not of much value as any kind of "advanced warning system" ie "Guard Dog" in my view??? If my dogs bark in the middle of the night ... "I ... should know" ... something is up??? That ... is how they are "trained" and that is what they do ... but ... I really did not understand/appreciate that ... at the time.
> 
> Boxers ... don't get much respect in general as being any kind of "serious dogs" (American Line anyway) but you know we luv them the way they are. Still as "watch dogs" .... you'd be hard pressed to do better. Case in point ....my "Struddell" used to sit on the back of the couch often and especially at night and she would was just "watch" people, random dogs, joggers, cars etc. Come and go .... on the sidewalk and streets. They appear briefly and then move on ... that's what they do. If they do come up the driveway ... give it a few seconds and she will "Bark" and yes .... someone is there ... works out fine. On one occasion I saved "three" strays becasue she altered me they were in our/her yard??? Our yard is raised above the sidewalk so that "usually" (dogs on the lawn) does not happen???
> 
> 
> 
> Other than that ...hours months and years of "peering" into the "nighttime darkness" and she never made a sound ... that is what she does and I know that! Still ... one time at about 10:30 pm ... she was yet again on the back of the couch peering into the darkness at nothing??? I"d just gotten off work I was tired and just wanted to go to bed and ... suddenly and unexpectedly ...she went off like a stick of Dynamite??? WTH ... I was annoyed and I said "STRUDDELL NO!!"
> 
> She looked at me like ... oh ... OK, then ... and settled down and continued to peer into the darkness .... whatever. The next morning I go out to our "cars" and I see my drivers door is open??? Well ... that is odd ... I don't do that. I get in and that's when I notice ... my radio and amp is gone from my truck and the radio is gone from my wife's car!!!
> 
> Yep ... sure enough ... when I told "Struddell" to shut the heck up!!! She "Barked" because those "guys" did not do what everyone else did ... they did not go by and they did not come to the door! She heard them and "attempted to let me know! I disregarded ...her "unusal behavior" and stuff got ripped off!
> 
> I filed a Police report ... of course they asked if I could ID the perps?? I had no idea what they looked like myself of course ..."Struddell" did ... I asked her for a description ... but you know ... most likely she was kinda "miffed" at me so she never gave me a "ID." Kinda like ..."How you like me now??
> 
> That was many years ago and now I"m down to only "Rocky" and he also does not bark at "background noise'" he understands the usual sounds of the household his world ... but ...you best belive "if" he goes off in the middle of the night??? I will take heed!!!
> 
> 
> None of that, is necessarily helpful given the advise you got from your trainer ... and hey if dogs barking at random crap is a thing where your are ... so be it. But as explained my dogs don't do that so if I heard them bark at night ... it means something is up ... so I take heed???


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## telavivgsd

Sabis mom said:


> Years ago my neighbor had an old husky cross that was an absolute sweety. But if you woke her she came up like demon dog fighting for her life.
> 
> I would definitely crate your dog at night. And I would absolutely be consulting a vet and a trainer. I don't think your dog is flawed. Startle me when I'm sleeping and I come up swinging. It takes a few seconds for our brains to wake up.




Interesting -that does seem to be kind of how this went, except that he had already been standing up barking for a few minutes, though I guess technically he could have been still half asleep. I'm also not someone who's particularly kind when you wake me up, so I see where you're coming from  We will definitely take him to the vet.


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## telavivgsd

Chip - Aww what a good dog Struddell was! I could be prejudging what our trainer's advice will be so I'll definitely ask what he thinks before I say anything definitive. 

I feel like it might be (or maybe not) important to note that Klaus doesn't bark at people in the hallway when we're not home - I know because we have a camera on him with sound. I also know he can differentiate between people in the hall, because if it's just me home, he'll bark at people, but as soon as my husband enters the building somehow he knows it's him and doesn't bark at all just goes and sits by the door. 

I really do appreciate all the advice and I will definitely be using it.


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## Thecowboysgirl

A Primo Pad instead of a crate pan reduces the noise a LOT, I can't sleep in a room with a dog crashing around on a crate pan all night.

As for the barking, when jy pup went through a phase of barking excessively, I would crate him for timeout if he did not heed me when I told him enough, thank you. For your dog, a lightweight drag line might make it easier to escort him to the crate so you don't have to grab him.

You did say he growled prior to this for having his collar grabbed, that is a warning I wouldn't ignore.


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## AmandaLaynee

Oh this just broke my heart 

Do not think you failed though, no one is a perfect pet parent. Some dogs are just wired differently... there is not something right in their brain. I have a rescue husky/GSD I got when she was younger. She was a good dog at first. Then she got very dog aggressive, severe separation anxiety, etc. I believe there were some things I could have done better, but I believe it is the way she is. I love her to death but there is something not right with her. I have a 6 month GSD now as well I've had since 8 weeks and he is the perfect pup. Playful, obedient, good with other dogs, etc. So it is not my parenting, just a flaw in her brain. I obviously don't know your full situation, but form what it sounds like it sounds like your baby also just has a wire off in his brain. 

My friend has a dog that is very aggressive towards other people. She hired a private trainer that specifically works with dogs with aggression issues. Maybe that is something you should look into? Bite this problem in the butt before it gets bad. You don't want it to get bad enough to where you eventually have to put him down because of aggression towards even his owners. I know it is not to that extent or even close, but I fully believe it's all about early intervention. I wish I had understand that before my baby's separation anxiety got this bad.


----------



## AmandaLaynee

Thecowboysgirl said:


> A Primo Pad instead of a crate pan reduces the noise a LOT, I can't sleep in a room with a dog crashing around on a crate pan all night.
> 
> As for the barking, when jy pup went through a phase of barking excessively, I would crate him for timeout if he did not heed me when I told him enough, thank you. For your dog, a lightweight drag line might make it easier to escort him to the crate so you don't have to grab him.
> 
> You did say he growled prior to this for having his collar grabbed, that is a warning I wouldn't ignore.


Ohhh i LOVE my primo pad!!! For both noise, and it's the only think my baby won't tear up in her crate haha. I highly suggest it. Better for their joints, too


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## Nurse Bishop

I didn't read all this but my question is what kind of training has this dog had? Has the pack hierarchy been established?


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## zetti

Step One--stop with the Koehler! His techniques are very outdated.


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## zetti

telavivgsd said:


> Thank you so much everyone for responding. I apologize that I wasn't able to reply more as you were responding, but it was night here and I was (finally) asleep. I'll try to respond to each person in one post!
> 
> gsdsar - I think you're right that we really need to change our approach to his barking. Obviously it's easy to respond annoyedly when you're trying to sleep and you know the sound in the hall is no threat, but clearly that doesn't work here. We will see our trainer this weekend (he he been out of the country so our classes have been with his less knowledgeable apprentices lately) so we will talk to him about it. He's just a little "old school" I guess, but the best we could find here for our situation, and I'm afraid his advice about this particular situation will be to respond forcefully which, while it may work for him, might not work for us. Thank you for the support. I guess we will go back to crating him at night - we had stopped because A. Now that he doesn't come to work he's crated for 5-7 hours during the work day so I feel bad and B. He moves around a lot when he sleeps and it makes noise in the metal crate. It's better than what just happened though. Thank you again.
> 
> selzer - we will start working on "enough" right away. I can tell you off the bat this is going to be difficult for him, because ending training/playing/things he wants to do is one of the biggest struggles with him in our training but we will start working on it. When he barks at noises during the day, I've tried to initially be like "ok I hear it" and after a couple barks say "that's enough, good job" and call him to me so in the same vein of what you're saying, but I didn't teach "enough" well enough and it's harder to take this approach when you're as grumpy as I am when woken up, but I will try harder - I am at risk of sounding angry in my commands at that time. Thank you for the advice and I'll start working on it.
> 
> LuvShepherds - that's what I would like to think, but he had been standing by the door barking for a few minutes at that point, and was super alert, so I'm just having a hard time believing that, though I guess it could be. Thank you though.
> 
> melissajancie - thank you so much. I've never been afraid of this dog, so it really threw me off.
> 
> voodoolamb - that was one of the things my mind first went to, though he's never shown any other signs of pain, but also because he sleeps a bit weird - loud snoring all the time, like an old man, and a lot of moving around. That said, most days he wakes up from this kind of sleep, trots over to my side of the bed, licks my face, and then flops over for a belly rub or, if I'm already up, wants to play straight off the bat. We will discuss taking him in though, thank you.
> 
> Cassidy's Mom - Thank you for the suggestions. I wrote above why I hadn't wanted to crate him at night, but I suppose we will just have to go back to it, especially for now. I'll try to combine my husband about the white noise machine, though I'm not sure how successful I'll be
> 
> Chip18 - The trainer seems to be of a belief, which I see as a kind of cultural thing here, that a dog barking at outside noises is a great thing that shouldn't be corrected, but I'll talk about it with him. Klaus does bark at the noises even from his crate, but the crate is farther from the door, so he hears slightly less and he can't run to the door to continue his barking so it's easier to get him to settle. We hadn't used the collar yet because it seemed that since we got him back from the dog sitter his barking had suddenly mostly stop. He would just let out a few low "woofs" when he heard something, which is fine with me, until suddenly the barking was back in full force last night :/ We definitely should get a drag leash - it's something I've been meaning to do since I've made an effort to stop grabbing his collar. Thanks for reminding me - I'll get one stat!
> 
> Pan_GSD - the thought crossed our minds - my husband's immediately, but I guess we'll never really know. The guy came well recommended, so I hope that wasn't the case :/
> 
> Cliffson - our building has only 7 apartments and I know the people in all of them. What he was barking at was two girls who (while annoying at midnight) were talking normally between them as going up the stairs. We also have like no crime here (hope I'm not jinxing us) and he does it for each person in the stairwell most of the time, whom I can usually recognize by their voices and which apartment they go into. Thank you though, you make a good point.
> 
> Deb - I think we will, especially if something similar happens again. I do also agree with selzer, I'm not sure we could justify something like an MRI just yet. This dog has had a lot of vet visits and we have to protect our finances set aside for his medical care as much as possible, but I'll discuss with my vet if she thinks it's necessary. My mind also went to rage syndrome as it's something I had read about and this seemed so out of character. He needs to go soon for working so I'll ask about it then, thank you.
> 
> Muskeg - I do feel that it is kind of a drastic change in behavior, because while he has been stubborn and a jerk, he's never been blatantly aggressive towards us, but maybe you're right and it is a continuation. We hope to move to a house in the next year or two Gd willing, so that would also help with this issue. I felt that we had made a lot of progress with him respecting us, and it seemed apparent in other aspects of our daily life. He still has his stubborn teenage moments, but in general he's been much more obedient. We will talk to our trainer about it right away and see what he says too. I also do not want to make this into a fight with him, that's something I've aimed for in our training, as, frankly, size and strength wise I would likely lose.
> 
> You bring up something I was wondering about too - should we start using the bark collar at this point. If he is fearful when barking in our apartment (which he doesn't appear to be, especially compared to other circumstances, it really does seem to be guarding, but obviously I'm not an expert), could this escalate the behavior and make it worse? I'll will work ok other approaches too, like what selzer recommended, but should we use the collar too?
> 
> Thank you to everyone, I really appreciate it. I'll be taking what you all say to heart and will start working hard on it. We would never give up on him unless we thought he was truly and irredeemable danger, which we of course don't think yet. I just know handler aggression is serious, and not something to be taken lightly.


Klaus probably didn't do a lot of barking at the pet sitter's house because it wasn't *his* turf. Now that he's back home, he's getting back to what he perceives as his job.

What is his breeding? You said his sire bit someone? What was that all about?

I agree with the PPs--Klaus absolutely needs to be crated at night. He may have too much freedom right now, in general. Does he have full run of the house during the day? Is he on the furniture?

I would stop all of that for awhile. NILF is exactly the right way to go. Try to resist a lot a gratuitous petting and loving on him for now. Make him sit or some other command if he wants attention.

Your goal is to restructure Klaus' world to the point that he notices and wonders what the heck is going on?

He sounds like an adolescent bully. He doesn't respect you. NILF will go a long way in fixing that. Don't allow your trainer to use overly harsh techniques on him. He's still a puppy and we know he's defensive. Let's not push that defense drive up even higher. That's the exclusive domain of expert protection trainers.

He needs firm, but not harsh or punitive handling.

Try your best to ignore him unless he's doing something you directed him to do.

Certainly, do check with your vet, for sure.


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## telavivgsd

zetti said:


> Klaus probably didn't do a lot of barking at the pet sitter's house because it wasn't *his* turf. Now that he's back home, he's getting back to what he perceives as his job.
> 
> 
> 
> What is his breeding? You said his sire bit someone? What was that all about?
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the PPs--Klaus absolutely needs to be crated at night. He may have too much freedom right now, in general. Does he have full run of the house during the day? Is he on the furniture?
> 
> 
> 
> I would stop all of that for awhile. NILF is exactly the right way to go. Try to resist a lot a gratuitous petting and loving on him for now. Make him sit or some other command if he wants attention.
> 
> 
> 
> Your goal is to restructure Klaus' world to the point that he notices and wonders what the heck is going on?
> 
> 
> 
> He sounds like an adolescent bully. He doesn't respect you. NILF will go a long way in fixing that. Don't allow your trainer to use overly harsh techniques on him. He's still a puppy and we know he's defensive. Let's not push that defense drive up even higher. That's the exclusive domain of expert protection trainers.
> 
> 
> 
> He needs firm, but not harsh or punitive handling.
> 
> 
> 
> Try your best to ignore him unless he's doing something you directed him to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly, do check with your vet, for sure.



Sorry for the delay, I didn't see that this thread started up again! I think that his barking has more to do with my husband and I being in the house than the house itself, because he doesn't do it if we're not home. 

The more time that passes, the more I think that he was not fully awake that night when this happened. Even in the mornings when he wakes up, for the first few minutes he's kind of drowsy, he trips and runs into things sometimes until he's fully awake.

Regardless, we've taken everyone's advice and have been crating him at night, with the bark collar, which has helped a lot. The bark collar's not super strong and I think it has a hard time working with his winter coat, but it had made a difference. When he barks now it's usually a much more subdued, low volume woof, which doesn't really bother me. 

We've also taken the advice of some helpful people on here and we've been practicing "enough" and putting him in a down every time he barks. We're also teaching him to put his head down in a down (as a separate command), which I hope will help too when he catches on. We also will be taking him to the vet this week or next. 

To answer your questions: 
Here is his pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2526558-niklaus-vom-haus-klein

I'm not sure about the thing with his father biting a lady, my husband just heard it through the grapevine so to speak. I don't know how much more info I could get.

Right now he is crated 5-7 hours during the day while we work. He has a walk in the morning before we go, and after work we go to the park and also practice obedience and play. When we're home, if we feel he's not settling when he should be (which is unusual) he goes in his crate. I finally got it together and put up all his toys where he can't get them, and they only come out now during play time and we work some obedience in it. We're trying to get stricter with NILIF. He is sometimes allowed on the furniture but he prefers not to be on it.

He does definitely try to bully his way into/ out of things, but we try our hardest to never let that be rewarding for him. Our trainer and all the GSD people we know agree that this is a difficult age, and I think so to - it's like he knows what we want sometimes and just wants to be a rebel lol. 

Our trainer was a lead trainer for the Israeli Defense Force for 20 some years, and he uses that style of training. No treats, but lots of praise as a reward. I think he's a good trainer, just from watching his dogs and his advanced group. He also listens to us if we say we feel something is too harsh. I don't think he's my ideal trainer but he's the closest we've found. Today Klaus was moved to the intermediate group and he did great, so I'm having a bit of a proud owner moment. When we discussed some of the recent issues with him he said to emphasize structure, keep working hard on obedience, use corrections with the prong when necessary and be patient. 

So I definitely agree with you that we need to make NILIF and obedience a priority, and I think (hope) time will help too. I hope that answered everything! Any input is more than welcome! Thank you for what you've given thus far!


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## SuperG

Once your dog backs you down.......a precedent is set and not a good one. "He grabbed him by the collar anyways and pulled him over to his crate and put him inside.".....good for him....

SuperG


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## telavivgsd

SuperG said:


> Once your dog backs you down.......a precedent is set and not a good one. "He grabbed him by the collar anyways and pulled him over to his crate and put him inside.".....good for him....
> 
> SuperG




Yeah, I was glad he did that because I sure wasn't going to. Nobody messes with my husband's sleep lol


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## Nurse Bishop

What is NILIF?

My GS bitch had a period of coming up the leash at about that age. When she was put into a down, a submissive position she did not like, she would make a snarley face. Not a growl or overt aggression. On the advice of Don Sullivan we got a prong collar to back up corrections for this. The phase passed. Don Sullivan sounds similar to your Isaeli trainer.


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## telavivgsd

Nurse Bishop said:


> What is NILIF?
> 
> 
> 
> My GS bitch had a period of coming up the leash at about that age. When she was put into a down, a submissive position she did not like, she would make a snarley face. Not a growl or overt aggression. On the advice of Don Sullivan we got a prong collar to back up corrections for this. The phase passed. Don Sullivan sounds similar to your Isaeli trainer.




I'm hoping this will also pass eventually! NILIF is the "Nothing in Life is Free" program..basically setting a lot of boundaries and asking the dog for something before giving them the things that they want. This is the link I originally read about it at http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm


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## telavivgsd

AmandaLaynee said:


> Oh this just broke my heart
> 
> 
> 
> Do not think you failed though, no one is a perfect pet parent. Some dogs are just wired differently... there is not something right in their brain. I have a rescue husky/GSD I got when she was younger. She was a good dog at first. Then she got very dog aggressive, severe separation anxiety, etc. I believe there were some things I could have done better, but I believe it is the way she is. I love her to death but there is something not right with her. I have a 6 month GSD now as well I've had since 8 weeks and he is the perfect pup. Playful, obedient, good with other dogs, etc. So it is not my parenting, just a flaw in her brain. I obviously don't know your full situation, but form what it sounds like it sounds like your baby also just has a wire off in his brain.
> 
> 
> 
> My friend has a dog that is very aggressive towards other people. She hired a private trainer that specifically works with dogs with aggression issues. Maybe that is something you should look into? Bite this problem in the butt before it gets bad. You don't want it to get bad enough to where you eventually have to put him down because of aggression towards even his owners. I know it is not to that extent or even close, but I fully believe it's all about early intervention. I wish I had understand that before my baby's separation anxiety got this bad.




Just want to thank you for your kind words! We definitely hope to nip this in the bud! I do thing his temperament is a big factor in his behavior. I'm sure we make plenty of mistakes, but I do think some of it is just his personality.


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## Stevenzachsmom

*"The more time that passes, the more I think that he was not fully awake that night when this happened. Even in the mornings when he wakes up, for the first few minutes he's kind of drowsy, he trips and runs into things sometimes until he's fully awake."

*I just read this part of your comment. It concerns me, as I have never experienced this in a young dog. I have had senior dogs act this way. I have had 'drugged' dogs act this way. My current dogs are 2 and 4 years old. They can be sound asleep, but can sense a cat across the street and be up and at the window in a fraction of a second. 

It makes me wonder if this is health related.


----------



## telavivgsd

Stevenzachsmom said:


> *"The more time that passes, the more I think that he was not fully awake that night when this happened. Even in the mornings when he wakes up, for the first few minutes he's kind of drowsy, he trips and runs into things sometimes until he's fully awake."
> 
> *I just read this part of your comment. It concerns me, as I have never experienced this in a young dog. I have had senior dogs act this way. I have had 'drugged' dogs act this way. My current dogs are 2 and 4 years old. They can be sound asleep, but can sense a cat across the street and be up and at the window in a fraction of a second.
> 
> It makes me wonder if this is health related.




I also find it kind of unusual, and I'll ask the vet about it. But he will jump up super fast to go bark at the door, etc., he just kind of seems not fully awake sometimes, usually just for like a minute or two. He also snores like no other dog I've ever heard! We will ask the vet for sure.


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## MyHans-someBoy

Don't feel discouraged or like you're a bad dog owner. You are a great dog owner looking for answers to a problem. There's no failing in trying your best...
FWIW, it sounds like he is a pushy, challenging pup, who is acting like a punk and will do whatever everyone is willing to put up with. Might be that he will mature out of some of it or that could just be him-even as a mature adult. 
When he first started snarling/advancing, it might have helped to give a very specific command rather than "Klaus, no!".
Tell him what, specifically, to do (like Down or Crate-or whatever he normally responds to pretty much all of the time w/o hesitation under 'normal' circumstances).
I know it's easy to say and much harder to think what to do when your dog does something startling and unexpected in the middle of the night, so please don't think I'm being critical-just throwing out ideas. With him already being amped up, I just think giving him something specific and clear to do may have stopped it before it got too far.
Crating him at night sounds like a good idea, but if he ever does it again at some other time, when he hasn't been startled out of sleep, I'd try a loud (to be heard over the noise level), no nonsense, specific command and I'd ask your trainer about a good, safe way to correct him so that the show of aggressive behavior towards you and your husband stops. He could have bit or mauled either of you for grabbing his collar if he truly had bad intent...but your husband took charge and dealt with him successfully. So...it sounds like he's just doing whatever he can get by with, but talking about it with your trainer would be a good idea.


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## telavivgsd

MyHans-someBoy said:


> Don't feel discouraged or like you're a bad dog owner. You are a great dog owner looking for answers to a problem. There's no failing in trying your best...
> FWIW, it sounds like he is a pushy, challenging pup, who is acting like a punk and will do whatever everyone is willing to put up with. Might be that he will mature out of some of it or that could just be him-even as a mature adult.
> When he first started snarling/advancing, it might have helped to give a very specific command rather than "Klaus, no!".
> Tell him what, specifically, to do (like Down or Crate-or whatever he normally responds to pretty much all of the time w/o hesitation under 'normal' circumstances).
> I know it's easy to say and much harder to think what to do when your dog does something startling and unexpected in the middle of the night, so please don't think I'm being critical-just throwing out ideas. With him already being amped up, I just think giving him something specific and clear to do may have stopped it before it got too far.
> Crating him at night sounds like a good idea, but if he ever does it again at some other time, when he hasn't been startled out of sleep, I'd try a loud (to be heard over the noise level), no nonsense, specific command and I'd ask your trainer about a good, safe way to correct him so that the show of aggressive behavior towards you and your husband stops. He could have bit or mauled either of you for grabbing his collar if he truly had bad intent...but your husband took charge and dealt with him successfully. So...it sounds like he's just doing whatever he can get by with, but talking about it with your trainer would be a good idea.




Thank you very much for your good ideas. We are hoping to get his downs really good so we can use that, but we can always use sit too. We use corrections in our training, so we will use that when necessary. He does like to push boundaries, definitely.


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## telavivgsd

*Something is very wrong*

Unfortunately I think there is something very wrong with Klaus. Since I started this thread, things have been going well. We never had another incident, and he's never shown aggression towards me in any way. Training has been great, he's been respecting both of us. He still likes my husband more than anything in the world, but I would say he listens to my commands better. The barking is 90% gone, using the bark collar initially and now just a quiet command and telling him to put his head down. He's also super good at the place command, it's his best one (this is relevant).

Last night was one of the few nights Klaus slept loose in the house because we fell asleep watching a movie. He slept on the floor on my husband's side of the bed, which is next to a wall. My side is the side the bathroom/kitchen/front door is on, and his crate is straight across from our bed (also relevant). 

At 6am this morning I head Klaus playing around with the computer charger, so I whispered "Klaus stop" which he did. About a minute later, I stood up and walked toward the bathroom (opposite side of the bed from him, not walking towards him at all. He jumped up and trotted towards me, and I figured he thought I was heading to his treat jar to get a treat and put him in his crate, something that happens a lot. So I said, quietly and very cheerfully, "come here Klaus, let's go to your crate" - and walked towards the treat jar. 

Instead he trotted over toward me and started snarling, just like the first incident. Now it wasn't dark this time, just dim, but I immediately switched the light on because I was next to it. I backed away from him, and he kept coming towards me, but my husband sat up then and called him. He then turned and growled at him, with less conviction, and then turned back to me. He was looking at me like he had never seen me before. My husband stood up and got a treat while Klaus stayed staring at me, I was on one side of the bed and he was on the other side at this point. Then Klaus put his two front feet up on the bed, and started to look like he knew me again, so I took the treat from my husband and gave it to him, then pet him, and he was fine. Then my husband told him place and we put locked him in his crate.

We had talked to the vet about the last incident, and he gave him a full check over and said he was healthy. He said that oftentimes large breed puppies sleep very hard because they're growing, and it can take them a little time to get their bearings when they wake up, and he may have perceived me as a threat in the first instance because he was already startled awake and barking and I walked toward him. Ok fine, but this time he wasn't asleep, and I wasn't walking towards him. 

Well this morning at 8, I went and let him out of his crate, and I sat on the couch like always and let him come sit in front of me for pets. He came, put his head on my lap, tried to lick my face, everything was completely normal. I walked over to get his leash and collar to take him outside, and when I walked towards him to take him, he ran away from me. I thought he was being a doofus, and wanted to play chase, but then he started vomiting. 

Could have been hunger pukes, though it was gray and foamy, but the treats I gave him in the night were dried fish, so it could have been gray from that. I walked a tiny bit towards him when he was puking, something he never minds (he gets hunger pukes sometimes), but when he looked up at me, the look was like the night before, like he had never seen me before/didn't recognize me. So I just turned and walked towards the bed where my husband was and let him keep puking (3 times, like always with hunger pukes). When he was done, he actively looked for me, and approached me snarling again.husband got between us, put him in the crate again. If I approached the crate at all, he would stare at me and growl nonstop. If I got closer, it was barking and snarling, snapping at the bars. Like he hated me or something (yes I know dogs don't really hate). But then sometimes he would look a bit confused. If my husband approached, he would kind of hide at the other end of the crate, growl at him, or be normal. He would listen to my husband's "sit" and "down" commands mostly, but only mine sometimes.

Then we noticed his eyes were glassy, he was panting and kind of shaking, and his nose was running. He kept switching between looking confused and looking aggressive. We called the vet, and he said that it sounds like it's two problems - Klaus doesn't feel well, and he gets aggressive when people get near him when he feels poorly. Now this dog has been sick a few times since we've had him. He's let me pet him while he's puking, hold him while he has an IV put in - I can mess with his teeth, his ears, his toes, give him eye drops for infections, everything no problem. I also wasn't getting near him in this situation - he was seeking me out. The vet said to give him rice for 24 hours, bring him in tomorrow, and contact their behaviorist. I'm sorry, but I just don't think he's right. The only time I've seen another dog act this way was my previous dog with epilepsy, who could be aggressive/scared after a seizure.

The fact that he went from cuddling with me to wanting to kill me in 5 minutes flat like a switch was flipped is just strange. His poop was also normal and no more vomiting, leading me to believe those were just hunger pukes, and he feels ok. I'm happy to get a second opinion from a vet, and money isn't really an object because of the pet insurance we have, so does anyone have any idea what this could be, or recommendations for things we could check for/tests we should have them do. Or could it be like the vet says, just a behavioral problem? We have to figure out what this is, because I can't risk having it happen when it's just me and him or happening to someone else.


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## cliffson1

I don't think he wanted to kill you because if he did he would have attacked you as there was nothing between you but air. Secondly, when he growled you should have immediately scolded/corrected him and went towards him instead of BACKING up. Your backing up only made it probable that he will do it again when situation fits his terms.


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## car2ner

Hunger puking should not be a normal thing. My guess is that he is feeling ill. And when they sleep they dream. I don't know if they remember their dreams or not but he may be reacting to a bad dream. Just a guess. Either way, it seems that you and the vet need to do more investigating to see what is making him so uncomfortable.


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## Jenny720

Would he be doing this to avoid the crate- his actions would be incredibly dramatic? Seems like he has a glitch maybe because he was not feeling good but he should trust you the owner. Document all this make a diary. Yes, correct him yourself when he does something like this it sounds like he has not received that message from you yet -not to behave in such a way.


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## cliffson1

One last thing, if I recall correctly you have a German Showlines dog....unfortunately too high a percent of them have less than stellar nerves. This results in a high degree of defensiveness....now this defensiveness can manifest itself in a continuum of extreme shyness to extreme aggression whenever the dog is not comfortable. Most of these dogs fall somewhere in between with circumstances bringing forth the behavior depending on degree of nerve strength. Growling is usually a communication sign more so than a prelude to charge or attack, but depending on the situation can lead to a defensive bite. Your dog no longer perceives you as having higher rank status in your pack than the dog. This does not mean that you can't get along most of the time on mutually sought after things, but it does mean that the dog will resist taking direction from you on things they feel very strongly they don't want to do. And because they view you as at most equal to them but no higher in rank status....than the dog will growl at you in some instances( albeit infrequent right now), and you reinforce this behavior by backing up. The dog understands your fear, and that is part of pack dynamic also. (When I say fear it doesn't matter if you are afraid or not when the dog growls, because the dog READS you as being afraid by your backing up behavior.) The dog communicated( growl) and you reacted( backing up) dog controls situation and thus has superior status in their mind to you, on things you two don't agree on. I have seen this scenario countless times.....I hope this helps you understand what is going on, because we have to understand and accept causation before we can fix the problem....if it can be fixed.


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## telavivgsd

Yes, you're correct, he is German show lines. What I'm confused about is what exactly could be provoking this. Klaus doesn't mind going to his crate, but he also had no reason to believe that's what was going to happen when I got up and walked toward the bathroom. He got up and came towards me - I was on the complete other side of the room. Also when I called him to take him outside, he loves going outside, so I'm not sure why it's something he would be trying to avoid. I left him alone while he was throwing up, and I went and sat on the bed. When he finished he ran across the room straight towards me for no apparent reason.

We talked to the trainer and we're getting him a muzzle today, but he was concerned about something like a "random rage outburst". We'll also take him to the vet tomorrow and have every test done. The fact that he growls at my husband and pursues me while I'm backing away during these times is baffling, as is the fact that he seems to snap out of it and realize who I am and then be fine. He just looks simultaneously really confused and hyper focused when this is going on. I've never in my life seen something like it. 

As for backing away when he's growling, I wouldn't do that once we have the muzzle on him, but I only have 20lbs on this dog at this point - I don't feel I can risk my life just to issue a correction. How would I even correct him? As I said, we've been pretty strict with him lately - a lot of obedience, NILIF at home, and he seems to follow my commands more quickly than my husband's. 

For the hunger puking, he ate pretty early last night, and usually I give him a small bit of food right before sleep to prevent hunger puking in the morning - that's what the vet had recommended. It hasn't happened since we started doing that. Last night since we fell asleep watching a movie, we didn't have the chance.


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## Jenny720

I'm not an expert but any dog to ferociously growl at their owner like that to me I think shows lack of respect, obedience or some wires crossed I'm not sure where the nerve part comes in. It sounds like A respect issue or wires crossed. Even if your dogs was incredibly sick I find it odd that he would growl at his owner with that intensity for no reason especially since you raised him as a pup and is used to you handling him.


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## telavivgsd

Jenny720 said:


> I'm not an expert but any dog to ferociously growl at their owner like that to me I think shows lack of respect, obedience or some wires crossed I'm not sure where the nerve part comes in. It sounds like A respect issue or wires crossed. Even if your dogs was incredibly sick I find it odd that he would growl at his owner especially since you raised him as a pup and is used to you handling him. *He is only doing this to you though which makes me think it's a obedience issue*.


I agree with the bolded above, and I've been thinking about that too, but I do want to note that in all of these instances, my husband was sleeping in bed and I was up, and Klaus became hyper focused on me. When my husband got up, it was like Klaus didn't even notice he was there. If he got close to Klaus, he would growl at him too, but then turned his focus straight back to me. Like nothing could distract him from me. 

Idk - I've been happy to admit obedience/behavioral problems in the past, but this just seems totally different to me. Out of the blue, and like I'm seeing a different dog. His weird glazed, faraway eyes - it's almost like he's sleepwalking or something, but he wasn't asleep.


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## Thecowboysgirl

You may have already ruled this out and if so, sorry...


But what about neurologic/seizure activity? I am not sure there is even any way for a vet to see evidence of this if it has already passed.

Besides that I am just so sorry you guys are going through this. Seeking you out to growl at you more is very weird.

I know a border collie who is fear aggressive and uber sensitive about being handled and he will actually growl and try to get in his owner's face to back her off when he knows she is going to handle him for something he doesn't want. She would also retreat from this dog and he would get more power from that. But if she projects her energy out at him nd stands her ground and tells him not to get in her face he will let it go lretty easily. He does have a drastically different look on his face and in his eyes when he is gunning for her, and I wonder if that is what you see with your dog.

I don't know why your dog would be upset about being leashed for pottying but you did ssy there was a previous problem with grabbing the collar, right? 

I know another dog that will pre emptively growl when you come to put her away because she doesn't want to be kennelled. Bird dog breed.

So I am wondering if what your dog is doing is the GSD version of what I have seen these other dogs do. One of them gets worse if you get more assertive with her but can be easily managed with extra pleasantries when she is grumpy. The other, the BC, is just insecure, neurotic, and does a thousand percent better with a very confident person who basically says "I will not yield my space to you and you will not enter my space to growl at me, it will not be tolerated". But he is such a sensitive dog that it is almost all imperceptible attitude stuff that changes the dynamic, the only real physical part is that you cant avert your eyes, retreat, turn your face away, ect when he gets it in his head that he wants to be nasty.

Then you will see his face change again when he lets it go.


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## Jenny720

telavivgsd said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not an expert but any dog to ferociously growl at their owner like that to me I think shows lack of respect, obedience or some wires crossed I'm not sure where the nerve part comes in. It sounds like A respect issue or wires crossed. Even if your dogs was incredibly sick I find it odd that he would growl at his owner especially since you raised him as a pup and is used to you handling him. *He is only doing this to you though which makes me think it's a obedience issue*.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with the bolded above, and I've been thinking about that too, but I do want to note that in all of these instances, my husband was sleeping in bed and I was up, and Klaus became hyper focused on me. When my husband got up, it was like Klaus didn't even notice he was there. If he got close to Klaus, he would growl at him too, but then turned his focus straight back to me. Like nothing could distract him from me.
> 
> Idk - I've been happy to admit obedience/behavioral problems in the past, but this just seems totally different to me. Out of the blue, and like I'm seeing a different dog. His weird glazed, faraway eyes - it's almost like he's sleepwalking or something, but he wasn't asleep.
Click to expand...

Yes I have re read everything and had went back and to take my comment in bold out. The only way you will find out what is wrong is to follow the path you are on with health checks, under guidance of a good obedience trainer and make sure you are following up with obedience at home. When the behavior happens again the timing of your correction and strength of your correction is important- keeping a long lead on him will help. If all your great effort does not change his behavior it may mean their is something Heath wise going on.


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## telavivgsd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> You may have already ruled this out and if so, sorry...
> 
> 
> But what about neurologic/seizure activity? I am not sure there is even any way for a vet to see evidence of this if it has already passed.
> 
> Besides that I am just so sorry you guys are going through this. Seeking you out to growl at you more is very weird.
> 
> I know a border collie who is fear aggressive and uber sensitive about being handled and he will actually growl and try to get in his owner's face to back her off when he knows she is going to handle him for something he doesn't want. She would also retreat from this dog and he would get more power from that. But if she projects her energy out at him nd stands her ground and tells him not to get in her face he will let it go lretty easily. He does have a drastically different look on his face and in his eyes when he is gunning for her, and I wonder if that is what you see with your dog.
> 
> I don't know why your dog would be upset about being leashed for pottying but you did ssy there was a previous problem with grabbing the collar, right?
> 
> I know another dog that will pre emptively growl when you come to put her away because she doesn't want to be kennelled. Bird dog breed.
> 
> So I am wondering if what your dog is doing is the GSD version of what I have seen these other dogs do. One of them gets worse if you get more assertive with her but can be easily managed with extra pleasantries when she is grumpy. The other, the BC, is just insecure, neurotic, and does a thousand percent better with a very confident person who basically says "I will not yield my space to you and you will not enter my space to growl at me, it will not be tolerated". But he is such a sensitive dog that it is almost all imperceptible attitude stuff that changes the dynamic, the only real physical part is that you cant avert your eyes, retreat, turn your face away, ect when he gets it in his head that he wants to be nasty.
> 
> Then you will see his face change again when he lets it go.


I would definitely like to get some neurological tests done tomorrow, and we made an appointment with a neurologist as well. We bought the muzzle, so we'll put it on him, and if he does it again I will definitely stand my ground. I'll see if it makes any difference. The problem is that maybe he won't do it again for a month, and then it's just a random episode - so how can we even get real help from a behaviorist? even my husband, who gets frustrated with him faster than I do looked at him this morning while he was growling at me from the crate, and said "We can't yell at him, he doesn't even realize what's going on". I'm so discouraged about this, especially since it felt like we were making so much progress.


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## telavivgsd

This is a video from this morning of what Klaus was like the whole time he was in the crate after his second time coming after me if either of us got near the crate. I feel like it's noteworthy that neither of us had yelled at him or even put him in the crate - he went himself when my husband said place. We also never yell at him in his crate as a rule, since it's his "spot" but he's never resource guarded it from us before.


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## cliffson1

I'm not sure he is a good match for your family?, doesn't mean he isn't a good dog....but some matches don't work. I saw the video.....I think he would respond well to leadership role....not sure you can achieve this at this point. Just being honest.


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## gsdluvr

Stevenzachsmom said:


> *"The more time that passes, the more I think that he was not fully awake that night when this happened. Even in the mornings when he wakes up, for the first few minutes he's kind of drowsy, he trips and runs into things sometimes until he's fully awake."
> 
> *I just read this part of your comment. It concerns me, as I have never experienced this in a young dog. I have had senior dogs act this way. I have had 'drugged' dogs act this way. My current dogs are 2 and 4 years old. They can be sound asleep, but can sense a cat across the street and be up and at the window in a fraction of a second.
> 
> It makes me wonder if this is health related.


ME TOO!! I felt the same reading this. Even my 5y/o with structural issues, doesn't wake like this. I would have a vet check for sure.

I hate to add more to this, but have they ever done a brain scan?


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## selzer

This is NOT normal behavior for German Show Line dogs. 

Yes, backing up when a dog growls is not generally a good thing to do, nor is going for the treat basket. 

Hunger pukes -- what the heck are those. If a dog's stomach is totally empty, they may throw up some bile. But that shouldn't be normal. Nor should we be trying to pet a dog when it is puking. Grabbing the dog and running it outside when it is trying to hurk up something on the bed is normal, I suppose. Petting, no. 

I too am worried about seizures, rage syndrome, brain scan, possibly brain tumor. It's not normal behavior for your dog to not know you. Have they done an MRI on the brain. This may be out of your budget, or not a reasonable cost. It could make a definitive diagnosis if there is a brain tumor. No chance for epilepsy or rage syndrome. 

Someone recently told me that their dog kept getting seizures, and their cats were dying, and the wife was getting ill. They found a leak in the furnace that was poisoning them. Not enough to kill them. But enough for bad effects. If you past dog had seizures and this one is having neurological issues, can there be something in the environment, weed killer, chocolate mulch, household cleaners, xylitol in the peanut butter or ice cream you are using to make treats? 

If you do an MRI and find a tumor, personally, I would put the dog down. Brain surgery is very expensive, but also very iffy with dogs. If you cannot get to the bottom of this, I am afraid you have some hard choices ahead of you. I don't think this is behavioral. Glassy eyes, hunger puking, not knowing you -- that isn't behavioral. 

I am sorry you are going through this.


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## telavivgsd

I agree I wish I hadn't backed up. I honestly wouldn't have, if he had been just standing there, but he was advancing towards me. Honestly though with the way he was growling and how hard his eyes were, I couldn't have forced myself to go toward him any more than I could force myself to walk in front of a moving car. 

For the hunger puke thing, yeah what I meant is he was occasionally vomiting some bile in the morning. I don't ever grab him when he's puking, there was just an instance when he was a little younger when he was sitting with me and it happened, and I just pet him gently when he was done. He didn't seem to mind me being next to him, definitely didn't respond to my presence aggressively. 

We will have them run as many tests as they can tomorrow. We have really good pet insurance, so I think it will cover most anything hopefully. I'm not sure about the brain scan but I will ask. 

My past dog with seizures was 15 years ago in a different country. She came to us with epilepsy. However, now that you mention it, we did recently have a bad mold outbreak that we just had someone clean this week. It was on the ceiling so I dont think he could've come in direct contact with it or the cleaning chemicals, but I'll mention it to the vet. It did smell pretty "bleach-y" in here for a while.

When I came home from work, my husband had him muzzled. He ran to me at the door and sat for pets very excited like usual. We put him in the crate to eat, and I looked up to see that I was getting a hard stare from him again. I walked towards his crate, and he started growling again. He would still listen to my commands though. We let him out with the muzzle, totally fine, obeying all my commands. Came back from a walk, he sat outside the front door, waiting for us to tell him to come in, and I called him in and he just stared at me again. Then he tried to go down the stairs - he didn't want to come inside. He has NEVER done that before - he loves coming home. There's definitely something weird going on with him. Every once in a while I just find him fixated staring at me. To be clear, this is a complete 180 from yesterday at this time when everything was completely normal with him. 

The fact that it's only directed towards me makes me feel like it has to be behavioral, but the fact that it's coming and going with no discernible triggers I can see, the sudden onset, and just the look he's giving me make me think it's not. It's like I woke up with a different dog than I went to bed with.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I agree with Sue. Just nothing about this seems normal to me. I hope you can get some answers.


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## Misha111

I think you are doing the right thing by seeking out medical advice. If that comes back with no reason for this behaviour, then you are seriously going to have to think about whether you are equipped to deal with this and take professional advice. 
Am not convinced that he didn't recognise you (unless there is a medical reason). My late GSD was sound asleep when my toddler came running in and tripped over her. My girl snapped and grazed my son's cheek. My girl left the room and I didn't blame her because i would have lashed out if someone belly flopped on me in the middle of the night. The point is that my pup removed herself, she didn't carry on like the video of you boy in his crate.
i wish you all the best.


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## Muskeg

I don't think this is a medical issue, but I do think you have a problem. And it's not new. I remember your posts about him jumping on you, and coming up the leash at you. I think at that point you thought it was "out of the blue", too? 

I'm not blaming you at all, this is a difficult dog, and he may have nerve issues, but I don't think he has a brain tumor or any sort of rage syndrome. 

I've seen this kind of "hard eye" in a dog. I have not seen it directed at me from any of my personal dogs, but I have seen that phase-shift that happens when a dog goes from being a dog, to being in more an animal state. It generally happens when two dogs are jockeying for position in a pack, or over a resource (in the case I saw, a highly valuable resource of female-in-heat). This dog is treating you like a lower member of a "pack" and acting accordingly. 

You are also inadvertently building barrier frustration and increasing resource guarding in him by coming into his perceived space when he is in his crate.

It's really hard to diagnose or help a case like this over the internet. 

I do not think he is a lost cause. I think that finding him a more appropriate home might be a good option. 

It is rare for a dog to come after his owners in the manner you are describing. But, I think it has been building in him since he was a pup and never properly addressed. I'm not sure why the trainer didn't help with this when he was still young and just trying it out.

Not sure what to recommend. If you can find a new trainer?


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## selzer

I keep forgetting this dog is yet a puppy. 8 months old? It seems mighty young for a dog to be having a brain tumor. Mighty young for a dog to be vying with owners for dominance too. He's barely a teenager. I do not like the impression that the dog sometimes does not know the owners, and this impression seems to turn on and off with some confusion. That the dog will act aggressively to both owners. And then seem fine, and them seem out again. 

Also, it seems odd the dog is fine for a couple of weeks and then having multiple issues in one session. It is almost like cluster seizures without the seizures.


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## newlie

Some dogs, I think, can react aggressively when awakened out of a deep sleep. A girl I know was bitten by her black lab in one of these scenarios. She had gotten up to go to the bathroom and when she came back, she softly stroked the dog as she was laying back down and the dog came up and bit her in the face. Not terrible damage but she did have to have sutures and some minimal plastic surgery and if it had been a couple of inches closer, it would have gotten her eye. The vet felt that this was totally out of character for the dog and I think her owner felt that way, too. I tell you one thing, though, if that had been me, she certainly would not be sleeping with me anymore or even loose in the house with me at night ever again.

The more recent episodes, though, where Klaus behaved aggressively during the day or when he had not been sleeping are even more troubling. The "not knowing us" sounds awfully like seizures to me. I know that in humans, even petit mal seizures can render a person oblivious to their surroundings or to people they know, I would assume it would be the same for dogs. 

I hope you get some answers very quickly so that you can determine where to go from here. So sorry you are going through this...


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## telavivgsd

Misha111 said:


> I think you are doing the right thing by seeking out medical advice. If that comes back with no reason for this behaviour, then you are seriously going to have to think about whether you are equipped to deal with this and take professional advice.
> 
> Am not convinced that he didn't recognise you (unless there is a medical reason). My late GSD was sound asleep when my toddler came running in and tripped over her. My girl snapped and grazed my son's cheek. My girl left the room and I didn't blame her because i would have lashed out if someone belly flopped on me in the middle of the night. The point is that my pup removed herself, she didn't carry on like the video of you boy in his crate.
> 
> i wish you all the best.




Thank you - this was exactly what I thought about the first incident, but yesterday he was awake every time it happened. He had been asleep recently but had been awake for a little while. We'll be at the vet soon and see what we find out.


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## telavivgsd

Hi all, thank you for your replies. We've been to the vet, met with a behaviorist, and we're heading to our training class now. The behaviorist and vet want to rule out anything medical first of all. They're doing a full blood work up, testing his thyroid and blood sugar, and then moving to neurological. Both agreed that with his age and with the vet having known him/us since we brought him home, it's very strange and not normal type behavior. We've also started to consider that the crate issue and the random aggression issue might be two different things. He has growled/barked at strangers in our house when he was confined to his crate, and will do the same towards the broom when I'm sweeping next to it. He doesn't mind me coming close to it to let him out, but if I stand near it and make eye contact, that's when he growls then. Regardless, the few random incidents of coming after me in the house seemingly unprovoked are more of what everyone is concerned about. 

Muskeg, you're right about the leash thing, but it was at about 4 m/o and I put an end to it shortly after I posted with the help of our trainer. I gave him two super hard corrections when he tried it to a far lesser degree after that, and he never did it again. Also, when he did that, he never growled or had an aggressive posture. It was more like he had just a weird overly hyper spell and was kind of throwing a fit. 

Maybe it is behavioral, I'm really not sure, but I guess the tests will tell us more. Now that he's muzzled in the house, we're going to try to replicate the situation (not sure we can since it was so random) and see what happens. This time obviously I wouldn't be backing away, but we will also have our webcam on so that we could record it for the behaviorist. We love this dog immensely, and while he's totally had his difficult phases, overall he's a pretty good dog, and super sweet. I'm really hoping we can figure out a way to get through this.


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## Jenny720

Your own dog occasionally staring at you and only you with hard eyes brings to mind many leaking of red flags. Im on the same thought he may not be the right fit for you. Not to say your only option is to give up and also not rule out health issues but just something to think about if there is no improvement seen in his behavior. I hope you have good help from a good professional trainer to help see you through this.


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## telavivgsd

Jenny720 said:


> Your own dog occasionally staring at you and only you with hard eyes brings to mind many leaking of red flags. Im on the same thought he may not be the right fit for you. Not to say your only option is to give up and also not rule out health issues but just something to think about if there is no improvement seen in his behavior. I hope you have good help from a good professional trainer to help see you through this.




I agree it seems like something that would be hard to get past. That's why I'm really hoping we can figure out if something is wrong medically.

Yesterday his friendliness went back to normal, but his behavior was not his usual. He was extremely lethargic even though he only had his training class/some fetch. Normally he would nap after and then be back to his energetic self. Yesterday I saw him fall asleep sitting up twice - something I haven't seen since he was super little, and he slept all of the afternoon and through the night. He also slept in weird spots - like all the way in the kitchen, the furthest place from us, when usually he likes to sleep next to where we're sitting.

He was back to acting normal towards me, but was clingier than normal. If I went in another room, like when I went to brush my teeth, he came in and sat leaning against my legs before flopping over and falling sound asleep. I figured maybe he liked he cooler bathroom floor so I left him sleeping to go in the kitchen, and he woke up ran after me, and plopped down on my feet and went right back to sleep. He normally keeps closer to my husband so this is unusual. 

Anyways, I do think he's not feeling 100%, just from what I've seen. Hopefully the tests on Sunday will find something and we can figure it out.

ETA he's been muzzled since it happened when loose in the apartment.


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## cliffson1

My last post.....I hope you find causation of his problem soon, because constant muzzling will eventually lead to issues of its own. A dog is not meant to spend significant time in a muzzle, especially in their own home or pack. At some point the dog's needs become more important than our desires in the big scheme of things. Hopefully, things right themselves very soon.


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## Thecowboysgirl

It's also possible that he is acting weird because of wearing the muzzle. I know a couple of dogs that muzzles and head halters have that effect on


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## telavivgsd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> It's also possible that he is acting weird because of wearing the muzzle. I know a couple of dogs that muzzles and head halters have that effect on




True and totally possible. Though the lethargy and falling asleep sitting up started before he was muzzled, and also happened when he was in his crate without it with a horn to chew. But I'm sure not being able to go grab all his toys is a bummer for him.

Cliffson - yes, it's definitely not meant to be a permanent solution, just while the vet is running tests. We've taken him to play fetch and hike to have time with it off and also did some training and tug in the house without it too. He has it off in his crate and of course when he eats. For now it's what our trainer and the vet told us to do until we can have all the tests run.


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## Mikelia

Wow, very scary. While you are figuring this out I highly suggest you leave a leash on this dog at all times and stop approaching him and giving him commands while he is in the crate. He is clearly confused, it could be medical, no one can really give proper advice without seeing this first hand. But you know he will do this in the crate so don't encourage it. Ignore him and maybe make his crate more private if that seems to work for him. I wouldn't even look at him when he's in his crate. He feels threatened (god knows why) so stop threatening him by giving him commands you can't enforce anyways.


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## Breaker's mom

I am no pro and you have lots of very experienced people giving you advice. So don't take anything I say to seriously. 

However, every time I read the post I am reminded of a foster I had here. The difference is this dog had been passed around a fair bit, including time at a humane society which I don't think is ever a good thing for a shepherd. The couple that adopted him and brought him to rescue realized pretty quickly that he was too much for them and not wanting to return him to the humane society, brought him to resuce. So completely different histories. I was fostering him for a rescue.

His behavior was a lot like you describe to similar stimuli and he had instances a lot like you describe. It was just as you say, like a switch was going on and off. He was around 6 mos old and I always thought he was confused. Like one part of him was telling him one thing and another was telling him something else. Hormones, history..I had no idea what of course and it was just a gut feeling. It also passed after a couple of months and he was able to move on to what I hope was a good home though I know his new family had their work cut for them. 

I am sorry you are going through this, it must be devastating but it sounds like you have a lot of support and certainly people are rooting for you. Hope his medical issues are not to serious and if nothing else, is just fate stepping in to give you a rest.


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## telavivgsd

Mikelia said:


> Wow, very scary. While you are figuring this out I highly suggest you leave a leash on this dog at all times and stop approaching him and giving him commands while he is in the crate. He is clearly confused, it could be medical, no one can really give proper advice without seeing this first hand. But you know he will do this in the crate so don't encourage it. Ignore him and maybe make his crate more private if that seems to work for him. I wouldn't even look at him when he's in his crate. He feels threatened (god knows why) so stop threatening him by giving him commands you can't enforce anyways.




Yes you are totally right, and I promise I'm trying to make the crate as stress-less as possible. I only gave him commands the one time, just to see what he would do, because when he growled at me outside of the crate, he wouldn't follow my commands, so I wanted to see if it was the same. Any time he's in the crate we have been avoiding approaching it except to open it, or occasionally passing it and tossing a treat in. We've stopped making eye contact while he's in it. 

He has a drag leash on for now while he's out too. I've added a couple toys, and he has his favorite chew in there also. I'm thinking about covering it on three sides tonight to see if he seems more comfortable. I think if I completely covered it, it would bother him.


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## telavivgsd

Breaker's mom said:


> I am no pro and you have lots of very experienced people giving you advice. So don't take anything I say to seriously.
> 
> However, every time I read the post I am reminded of a foster I had here. The difference is this dog had been passed around a fair bit, including time at a humane society which I don't think is ever a good thing for a shepherd. The couple that adopted him and brought him to rescue realized pretty quickly that he was too much for them and not wanting to return him to the humane society, brought him to resuce. So completely different histories. I was fostering him for a rescue.
> 
> His behavior was a lot like you describe to similar stimuli and he had instances a lot like you describe. It was just as you say, like a switch was going on and off. He was around 6 mos old and I always thought he was confused. Like one part of him was telling him one thing and another was telling him something else. Hormones, history..I had no idea what of course and it was just a gut feeling. It also passed after a couple of months and he was able to move on to what I hope was a good home though I know his new family had their work cut for them.
> 
> I am sorry you are going through this, it must be devastating but it sounds like you have a lot of support and certainly people are rooting for you. Hope his medical issues are not to serious and if nothing else, is just fate stepping in to give you a rest.




Thank you so much for your kind words. It's good to know he's not the only case of this kind of thing ever. I am so happy to have found this forum early on as the people here have helped a ton. What you say about the confusion is dead on. I see it in him sometimes even in normal situations, but in these incidents it's seemed that he's very clearly confused. Like he's getting two different messages in his brain.

He really is a good dog most of the time. Any time I've posted in the forum it's been because of a problem, so I'm sure it seems like he's terrible here! He follows commands well (though lately he sometimes has a little teenager brain), he has been improving on loose leash walking beautifully and he is really goofy and playful with us most of the time. He also totally got over his initial dog reactivity completely, to the point that he recently had a dog snap in his face (it was a loose dog that randomly approached him before I saw) and he just looked at the dog like "ok could you not" and walked away as if nothing ever happened. 

I really thought that we prepared well for getting Klaus - we planned and discussed for months, we've both had many dogs before, we met the mom and the puppies, saw videos of the dad, we set aside money for every possible scenario, started with a trainer at 10 weeks, tried to socialize him as much as possible. I really thought we did everything "right" but he still really manages to throw me for a loop sometimes, and I feel awful about it.


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## Deb

You have been working with this dog for almost it's entire life with one issue after another. You've had several trainers and I think prior behaviorists look at him? Yet he continues to have more serious issues popping up. I know you love him but I think at some point in time you need to consider the life you and he are now leading and how long you want to continue to live this way. I also worry that rehoming him is not possibly the right answer either. If you consider doing this my suggestion is you give him to a trainer who can work with him and let the trainer decide if he can be rehomed and do the rehoming to a place he feels will work out the best. This may not be what you want to hear and I apologize for that. But I worry someone may be seriously hurt by him at some point in time.


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## telavivgsd

Deb said:


> You have been working with this dog for almost it's entire life with one issue after another. You've had several trainers and I think prior behaviorists look at him? Yet he continues to have more serious issues popping up. I know you love him but I think at some point in time you need to consider the life you and he are now leading and how long you want to continue to live this way. I also worry that rehoming him is not possibly the right answer either. If you consider doing this my suggestion is you give him to a trainer who can work with him and let the trainer decide if he can be rehomed and do the rehoming to a place he feels will work out the best. This may not be what you want to hear and I apologize for that. But I worry someone may be seriously hurt by him at some point in time.




Don't apologize, it's something I've been thinking hard about. One of the real problems I have with rehoming is that it's not a great option here. I love this country, but in general, from what I've seen, dogs like German shepherds here either end up chained up outside or stuck in a yard, getting used for dog fighting in certain areas, or in the exact same situation as he's in now, living with us in an apartment. The exception would be the kind of "German shepherd crowd" but the show lines generally belong to big time kennels where the dogs are in runs outside, bred, and have no real personal relationship with an owner. I can tell you if he goes the last route someone will breed him. Just as an example, I was talking to a relative who knew about our recent problem, who recommended breeding him, keeping a puppy, and then rehoming him or having him pts. When I said I wouldn't breed him because of his issues, the response was "why? The puppies wouldn't be like that." It's just a different attitude, though I can't say everyone is like that. It's also a very very small country, so there's just not that many rehoming options as someplace like the US, and there is a big overpopulation problem. 

I really don't want any of the things I've mentioned for Klaus. I'm actually happy that we have him, because I can imagine worse scenarios for him than us. Our goal is to be in a real house with a yard in the next 18 months, here or abroad, and I keep telling myself that then it will be ok and it will be better for him, though I realize that realistically it may make no difference. Trust me I've been crying about this issue pretty nonstop since Thursday, so I don't disagree with what you're saying.


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## barnyard

I'm sorry you are experiencing this. I agree with getting medical tests. It almost sounds like seizures. We had one years ago that would have seizures and then turn go after us. She had to be put down.
Even if it's not seizures the dog sounds like something medically is wrong. If it is behavior related I know it's not something the average owner could probably deal with.
Hope you find answers soon.


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## Chip18

*"Feeling discoDiscouraged, distraught, and a little panicked" *... no doubt and you have good reason to be! But that won't help your dog! I'm not really good at the "hand wring thing??" And I ... disagree with the "if I can't fix this" then "PTS" it is but is it??" 

Just becasue "I" can't solve an "issue" does not "automatically mean" that ... someone else can't??? Getting the dog checked out becasue of "Sudden unexpected behavioural changes" is sound advise but if the dogs check out fine?? Then that is "not " issue and thinking that because "I" can't solve the issues ... no one can??? Is unfair to the dog!

Thus far ... you've still done well, despite the current issues ... the dog has not bitten anyone ... that's a plus! This particular dog is "not" as you expected?? "Crap happens" but just becasue "you" at the moment can't solve the "issues" does not mean that someone else can not??? Despite your issues ... at the momnet ... your ahead of me! It took five months or so of a house full of tension ... five pack fights and "stitches" for me to finally realize ... that "this dog" is not as expected??? 

Today ... others have described "my" dog as an "Easy" dog??? OK then yeah "these days" he is. But that is not how he started out! I could have easily "opted" to "give him back to rescue, I was not a GSD guy anyway .. so "Screw" this Crap." But I chose not to becasue ... what if ... my dog is the way he is becasue of what I did??? He was fine when I got him but "now" he was freaking out of control?? Pack fights and as I was to discover later H/A issues ... "WTH???" 

I'd done the exact same thing I had done* "with my other dogs" * but it was just not working out??? "Assuming" he checks out OK... medically ... that is where you are at. 

If you want to bail on him ... fine go for it. Find a "GSD" rescue rescue rescue and work with them. Offer to "Foster" the dog in "Place" and most of them will be happy to help. There are "owners" out there like me that "don't care" what others "assessment of a dogs issues ... I'd find out myself!"

It will take some effort but just becasue "you" can't deal ... that does not mean "automatically" that someone else can't?? But ... understand "I'm" a never say "NO I Can't" kinda guy! 

Most likely ... with all the "crap" going on ... you can't see that you have already taken the first step in "solving your issues?? Stop doing and start thinking ... "out think your dog!" What I "expected" is not happening??? So what do I do??

This maybe still ... your dog??? I don't know but "clearly" if you continue to try and fix this "round peg" into your "preconceived square hole" It's not gonna work out to well in the long run?? 

Fine then when I got it right ... I stopped doing that and I "worked with the dog in front of me!" Most likely you are not aware but you already detailed ... what I would not do?? The dog is "clingy" he chose to follow me to and fro and chose to lay down and sleep??

That is not his choice! You can't muzzle him 24/7 you can't Crate him 24/7 and you can't keep him in "Place" 24/7 but you can lay down a foundation of "expected behaviour!" Feed the dog in the Crate if he won't go in the Crate he does not eat! Indoors he is no longer "free" to follow you around? Indoors it should be "Place or Crate" period! 

He may know ... Formal Obedience, Sit, Down, Stay don't bum rush thresholds, walks well on leash etc etc. With some dogs ... none of tat means crap! That is not where there "issues lie???" Rules/ Structure and Limitations are what is missing here. 

It took "Stitches" for me to understand that lesson and when I "Stopped" fighting with my dog and started showing him I "expected" him to behave ... things changed! He got it and it did not take force!

So all this said ... and "assuming" the vets don't find an issue?? If your willing to change your expectations and work with the dog in front of you ... this thread is full of things Many of them I learned after the fact! Had I know "this stuff" before I found I had issues?? I'd have most likely never have gotten those first stitches ever and would not have a permanently"l bent little finger" as a reminder that "fighting with a dog" ... is not the way to go ... "Good Times, Good Times."

Ah well at anyrate ... what I should have done is here.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8006017-post7.html

Start over ... see the "Two Week Shut Down" and go from there or you know just "Bail" ... find a "GSD Rescue" and call it day. Your call there, but ... the dogs that are our greatest challenge are the ones we learn the most from! I was/am very very good at the whole "Boxer" thing! Ten years of experiance with Band Dawgs APBT/Boxer and Boxers. My first OS WL GSD ... "just a big furry dog with a pointy face" ... that was the extent of my research! LOL ... good luck with that! I got "schooled" but you know ... it worked out well in the long run! 

And the "secret" to my "success" was my ability to finally "adapt" and work with the dog in front of me! So your dog ... "don't assume" that there are not others just like me out there?? We don't care what others "say" about this dog?? We do we do and let the dog show us what the "issue" are?? So bail if you chose ... no harm in that as you did not sigh on for this crap??? But if you want to stick with the dog??? You can ... you just need to know how???


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## Deb

Chip, have you read the whole story? They have tried several trainers and behaviorists. I think they have done all that can asked of them. It might be medical and it might not be. But there are also dogs, just like people, who are not quite right in the head. I'm not saying this is the case, but there's always the possibility it could be. Had they not worked for so long and on so many problems, I'd agree with you, but if they feel PTS is the only safe choice for them and the dog at a later time, I do not feel anyone should make them feel guilty for it. They have gone above and beyond most owners.


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## selzer

Chip, I appreciate your experience, and the time you took to right that out. It is good first hand experience. It is what worked in your instance. I too got stitches from a VERY easy dog. That dog was fighting with another and I put my hand in where the teeth was. I did learn, I hope. 
But I doubt you could find an easier dog than Rushie was, unless it was Moofie. Ah well. 

What I disagree with, is the idea of having a pet dog that can't follow you around the house. If a dog has to be on task, in its place, or in its crate, at all times, what is the point? 

We get a pet for a variety of reasons, but most of us want a companion that will share our lives. As a bonus, our blood pressure goes down, and our aspect is raised. We exercise more, it's easier to get out of bed in the morning. We have someone to come home to. 

Sometimes we get a pet that has health concern after health concern. They need regular vet visits, operations, medications, special food, and they take a toll on our finances. But there is that look in their eye that says they adore us, and we adore them, and we are willing to do all of that for them. In fact it makes our life enriched sometimes to help a tough case, but it is worth it. 

Sometimes they have behavioral issues, and yes sometimes they are our fault. We learn a great deal from the tough ones. We gain real experience. But there has to be a point where the training, management, exercise, and leadership makes us feel elated because of the progress. And rarely are these dogs showing aggression toward us, their owner. 

When we have a dog that isn't working out, we are fearful of the dog's doing serious damage to a stranger, to someone we love, or to ourselves, the blood pressure goes up, as time goes by and we spend more and more money and time trying to figure out how to manage the dog and if it will ever be safe in our home, safe for us to be kept, well, that isn't why we get a pet. It just isn't. It doesn't get any easier to put them down as time goes by. No one wants to put down a puppy. No. But when you've had this dog for 2-3 years it really isn't any easier then. If the dog is 5-6 and there are months between incidents, and we think the dog is getting better and then another episode, and someone is really hurt -- it STILL isn't easy to do what needs to be done. That is if the dog is wired wrong. 

I don't know about this dog. I really don't. I don't understand the dog not knowing its owners. I think they have to find someone with a lot of experience, and pay the fellow to take the dog for a couple of weeks, until he sees the issue, and can actually diagnose. Or they have to find someone who is both capable (how do you determine this) and willing to take the dog on, and rehome. I don't like rehoming aggressive dogs, but this is yet a puppy. Maybe a different management style, maybe I don't know. 

Normally, I think a dog that is aggressive to its owners and unpredictable needs to be put down. That's really sad, and I think these dogs should get this diagnosis from a person that can see and evaluate the dog in the flesh.


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## Chip18

selzer said:


> Chip, I appreciate your experience, and the time you took to right that out. It is good first hand experience. It is what worked in your instance. I too got stitches from a VERY easy dog. That dog was fighting with another and I put my hand in where the teeth was. I did learn, I hope.
> But I doubt you could find an easier dog than Rushie was, unless it was Moofie. Ah well.
> 
> What I disagree with, is the idea of having a pet dog that can't follow you around the house. If a dog has to be on task, in its place, or in its crate, at all times, what is the point?
> 
> We get a pet for a variety of reasons, but most of us want a companion that will share our lives. As a bonus, our blood pressure goes down, and our aspect is raised. We exercise more, it's easier to get out of bed in the morning. We have someone to come home to.
> 
> Sometimes we get a pet that has health concern after health concern. They need regular vet visits, operations, medications, special food, and they take a toll on our finances. But there is that look in their eye that says they adore us, and we adore them, and we are willing to do all of that for them. In fact it makes our life enriched sometimes to help a tough case, but it is worth it.
> 
> Sometimes they have behavioral issues, and yes sometimes they are our fault. We learn a great deal from the tough ones. We gain real experience. But there has to be a point where the training, management, exercise, and leadership makes us feel elated because of the progress. And rarely are these dogs showing aggression toward us, their owner.
> 
> When we have a dog that isn't working out, we are fearful of the dog's doing serious damage to a stranger, to someone we love, or to ourselves, the blood pressure goes up, as time goes by and we spend more and more money and time trying to figure out how to manage the dog and if it will ever be safe in our home, safe for us to be kept, well, that isn't why we get a pet. It just isn't. It doesn't get any easier to put them down as time goes by. No one wants to put down a puppy. No. But when you've had this dog for 2-3 years it really isn't any easier then. If the dog is 5-6 and there are months between incidents, and we think the dog is getting better and then another episode, and someone is really hurt -- it STILL isn't easy to do what needs to be done. That is if the dog is wired wrong.
> 
> I don't know about this dog. I really don't. I don't understand the dog not knowing its owners. I think they have to find someone with a lot of experience, and pay the fellow to take the dog for a couple of weeks, until he sees the issue, and can actually diagnose. Or they have to find someone who is both capable (how do you determine this) and willing to take the dog on, and rehome. I don't like rehoming aggressive dogs, but this is yet a puppy. Maybe a different management style, maybe I don't know.
> 
> Normally, I think a dog that is aggressive to its owners and unpredictable needs to be put down. That's really sad, and I think these dogs should get this diagnosis from a person that can see and evaluate the dog in the flesh.


 But of course per usual ... well put. And sorry about "Moofie" ... that was sad. 

But I'm not arguing "against" a "Medical check up" or even "Find a Trainer??" "IF" the dog is "medically sound" then the "issue" is not the dog but the owner and their approach/expectations. 

Something has to change ... if they don't want to sign on for the whole ... "No Free Roaming/Crate/Place/Sit on the Dog" thing fine. Rehome the dog ... but "adding" to there sense of "despair" by giving the "impression" that becasue they can't "solve" the dog's issues "at the moment" ... and therefore there is no hope for this dog??? Is a step to far ... in my opinion. 

The dog has thus far ... not bitten anyone?? PTS is hardly the only solution?? Maybe not a lot of people are looking to "adopt" a "PIA" GSD but you know ... some owners will??? 

If they want to bail on the dog ... fine, clearly ... they did not sign on for this crap??? Contact a "GSD Rescue" and "Foster in Place" and then incorporate the "Protocols" I outlined anyway. As for poor "Rufus" not being able to follow the owner around the house and do as he pleases ... yeah ... he pretty much *"forfeited" that privilege with the "first snarl!" *

Understanding ... the part in bold, is the difference between, those who can and those who can't. Those who are "willing" to make changes in "there expectations" and "Work with the Dog in front of them" ... just need to know how??? 

Had I known "then" what I know now?? I'd have not gotten those stitches becasue I would not have had five pack fights to break up and I would not be here today. 

So yep ... I have both feet firmly in the "Save them all camp." And I make no apologies, those that think otherwise are of course free to make there "arguments." I don't presume what people can or can't do?? On the internet "everybody" is an "Expert." It's up to the individual to decide for themselves, if what they hear seems viable??? 

I read one article online and fixed my dogs H/A issues ... "Correction free" in retro spec. And I'm not that special, if I can do it ... so can others. In any case ... "this" is not about me?? I just happen to be a very "vocal" proponent for my particular point of view.


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## MineAreWorkingline

chip18 said:


> *i read one article online and fixed my dogs h/a issues *... "correction free" in retro spec. And i'm not that special, if i can do it ... So can others. In any case ... "this" is not about me?? I just happen to be a very "vocal" proponent for my particular point of view.


 :wink2:


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## telavivgsd

So Klaus' blood exams came back, and everything was ok except for his liver function. Before doing the tests, one of the main things that the vet had mentioned was the possibility of a liver shunt causing toxins to build up in his blood and hurt his brain function. The more conclusive test for this is to check his ammonia levels, but unfortunately they couldn't run that test today so we will be bringing him back for it. The vet said that the symptoms do fit, though most dogs show symptoms after eating, and Klaus' have been after sleeping. If this is what's causing it, he said it can be corrected by surgery. If it's not, then he's referring us to a neurologist to check everything on that front.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Well hats off to you for sticking this out, managing him while trying to rule out a medical cause and being willing to consider all options. 

None of this is ideal, but you guys are obviously doing the best you can to address this from every logical standpoint.

Please keep us posted and I wish you the best getting to a solution


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## telavivgsd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Well hats off to you for sticking this out, managing him while trying to rule out a medical cause and being willing to consider all options.
> 
> 
> 
> None of this is ideal, but you guys are obviously doing the best you can to address this from every logical standpoint.
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep us posted and I wish you the best getting to a solution




Thank you so much. As kooky as he is normally, I just truly believe that this is out of character for him. I really hope we can figure out what it is and find a solution.


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## Chip18

telavivgsd said:


> So Klaus' blood exams came back, and everything was ok except for his liver function. Before doing the tests, one of the main things that the vet had mentioned was the possibility of a liver shunt causing toxins to build up in his blood and hurt his brain function. The more conclusive test for this is to check his ammonia levels, but unfortunately they couldn't run that test today so we will be bringing him back for it. The vet said that the symptoms do fit, though most dogs show symptoms after eating, and Klaus' have been after sleeping. If this is what's causing it, he said it can be corrected by surgery. If it's not, then he's referring us to a neurologist to check everything on that front.


OK so "something" is indeed "Off" with him. Hopefully he can get back to being healthy. In the meantime just be careful.

Try not to put him in a postion to make "poor choices." And if you wish to have him follow you around the house?? Fine but it should be a Sit/Stay or a Down/Stay first and call him to you. That "should help with the "Clingy." Nothing is cast in stone. Good luck moving forward.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> :wink2:


 Oh ... that's a witty retort??? I see you've picked up things from ... others. 

I'll just "pretend" like it's a reply worthy of an answer. Yes one "article" it merely clarified to me something I'd always done with my other dogs "anyway??" I just put a slight spin on it and added a "muzzle" just in case ... "Bubble Dog Protocol" and went to work ... worked out fine. 

And thanks for again "clarifying" why I did not go for "two way" communication when I first had issues??? I was looking for "answers" not a "debate." Aww ... well water under the bridge ... these days "people" have to settle for telling me ... "I can't do what I've already done??? As I want to say 
... *"Good Luck With That!"* :smile2:


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## telavivgsd

Chip18 said:


> OK so "something" is indeed "Off" with him. Hopefully he can get back to being healthy. In the meantime just be careful.
> 
> 
> 
> Try not to put him in a postion to make "poor choices." And if you wish to have him follow you around the house?? Fine but it should be a Sit/Stay or a Down/Stay first and call him to you. That "should help with the "Clingy." Nothing is cast in stone. Good luck moving forward.




Thank you Chip! I really appreciate the input you've given. We'll keep trying to set him up for success. I'll keep you guys updated!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> Oh ... that's a witty retort??? I see you've picked up things from ... others.
> 
> I'll just "pretend" like it's a reply worthy of an answer. Yes one "article" it merely clarified to me something I'd always done with my other dogs "anyway??" I just put a slight spin on it and added a "muzzle" just in case ... "Bubble Dog Protocol" and went to work ... worked out fine.
> 
> And thanks for again "clarifying" why I did not go for "two way" communication when I first had issues??? I was looking for "answers" not a "debate." Aww ... well water under the bridge ... these days "people" have to settle for telling me ... "I can't do what I've already done??? As I want to say
> ... *"Good Luck With That!"* :smile2:


You liked that, huh? :smile2:

A look and a growl doesn't always signify aggression.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> You liked that, huh? :smile2:
> 
> A look and a growl doesn't always signify aggression.


Well for the "whole of dogdom" ... most likely your correct???

But for "my" (easy dog) ... who I had to break up five pack fights between him and my American Band Dawg and eventually landed in the ER for stitches. When he greeted "Company with a low growl and a cold hard stare??? "I" took him at his word! 

Maybe your comfortable with that "look" in your home from your dogs??? I was not ... "this" time ... I took him at his word! And I was not willing to make my problem someone else's problem. I incorporated a "Zero Bite" policy at the "first sign of an issue???" And he was "never" put into a "postion" to make "poor choices!" 

I "showed him what I wanted" and how I "expected" him to behave in public. After a bit I dropped the muzzle and after a bit more time. I "finally" allowed stranger contact. And then the "look and growl" were replaced with a "this old bit again??" He did not care .... good enough for me. 

But whatever sorry, it was not some long drawn out difficult struggle??? *He was never given the "opportunity" to make poor choices ... so I never had to "correct him for any untowards actions with people." * Not being a "Pro" and all I "assumed" that would be "ideal??" But you know I have no idea what counsel others would have given me??? I'd also assume it would have been "Find a Trainer or PTS??? 

But whatever, I do what I do and people go backtrack to "explain" to me ... how I can't/couldn't have done that?? Aww well as I am want to say ... "there is always that guy."


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> *But for "my" (easy dog)* ... who I had to break up five pack fights between him and my American Band Dawg and eventually landed in the ER for stitches. When he greeted "Company with a low growl and a cold hard stare??? "I" took him at his word!


Agree with the bolded, not to be applied to the "whole of dogdom".

:thumbup:


----------



## Deb

telavivgsd said:


> So Klaus' blood exams came back, and everything was ok except for his liver function. Before doing the tests, one of the main things that the vet had mentioned was the possibility of a liver shunt causing toxins to build up in his blood and hurt his brain function. The more conclusive test for this is to check his ammonia levels, but unfortunately they couldn't run that test today so we will be bringing him back for it. The vet said that the symptoms do fit, though most dogs show symptoms after eating, and Klaus' have been after sleeping. If this is what's causing it, he said it can be corrected by surgery. If it's not, then he's referring us to a neurologist to check everything on that front.



I hope that they can pinpoint what is happening to Klaus and be able to repair it. He is so lucky to have you guys are his owners. Most would never have done all you have. Do keep us posted on how things go.


----------



## DoggyLens

Please keep us posted and I wish you the best getting to a solution


----------



## telavivgsd

Deb said:


> I hope that they can pinpoint what is happening to Klaus and be able to repair it. He is so lucky to have you guys are his owners. Most would never have done all you have. Do keep us posted on how things go.




Thank you so much Deb, that means a lot. Hopefully we will know more this week!


----------



## selzer

You see, Chip, and Telavivgsd, if this is the liver shunts, causing toxins to build up in the brain, all the Sit On The Dog, and making it stay it in its place will not change the behavior. If this diagnosis is correct, the problem is not the dog asserting itself over the humans and being aggressive, therefore strong leadership that requires the dog to be on task or put away, is not helpful and certainly will not work.

If by surgery they can fix the liver and the toxins will be expelled by the function of the liver, then the puppy can come back to his normal demeaner. 

I have heard of liver shunts. I have not experienced them myself, but a close friend had a young puppy with many, and they finally lost her. But it did sound like hers was a worse than ordinary case. I do not remember all the symptoms, as a human trait is to block some unpleasantness. 

The case was pretty awful, for a pup under 8 weeks old, as soon as she started solid food, they had trouble, and thought maybe MegaE. They went to a specialist, and they did some tests and felt it was some sort of aortic something or other -- anyway like megaE, but further up and operable. They operated. They found it was indeed megaE and sewed her back up. The puppy was sick and lost weight. They took her back in and put in a feeding tube. She got sicker. The then found all the liver shunts. They tried everything but they finally had to put the little girl down. It was awful. 

That puppy was much younger than this one, and I am hoping what ails this dog will be operable. 

As for behaviors caused by a physical issue. Not all dogs will respond the same. Dogs will hide pain, not all of them, but many of them. It is a survival technique. In the wild an infirm predator might be killed off. So they hide the sickness/pain, and become more surly. So aggressiveness could be a mask for pain/illness. 

I was worried about toxins in the home -- furnace leak, weed killer, some form of ingredient in ice-cream or peanut butter, etc. Because these toxins before reaching fatal doses could cause seizures (poisoning), illness, even aggressiveness (to mask sickness, or as a part of seizure activity). So if the body isn't naturally removing ordinary toxins that the dog is picking up (normal toxins in the system) ie, liver not working right, then those toxins are building up in the body, and can have a serious effect on behavior, and particularly those symptoms that seemed more physical than behavioral. 

Chip, I am not in the camp to save them all. I sure hope this or something else IS the answer for this puppy, and it lives a long and happy life with its folks. For unpredictable, human aggressive dogs that do not have some medical reason that could be managed physically, I would hope the owners would release the dog from its demons before they are totally turned off of the breed and dogs, and more importantly before someone is seriously damaged physically, and our breed takes another major hit in reputation.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> You see, Chip, and Telavivgsd, if this is the liver shunts, causing toxins to build up in the brain, all the Sit On The Dog, and making it stay it in its place will not change the behavior. If this diagnosis is correct, the problem is not the dog asserting itself over the humans and being aggressive, therefore strong leadership that requires the dog to be on task or put away, is not helpful and certainly will not work.


 "This Time" I'll simply say "Thank You" for the insight and hopefully there is a "medical solution" to be found.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

We lost a dog to liver failure. We did not know what was going on until it was too late. She could not survive the anesthesia she was so weak. It was awful. She did not have behavioral symptoms.

She went downhill so fast within 24 hours they could not even sedate her for a biopsy because they said she would not survive it.

They said it was either shunts or previous trauma to the liver (non lethal poisoning), which was possible because there was an incident with her previous owner where she had gotten into something and had some very severe hemorrhagic gastro enteritis that she survived. She was being kept by the owners friend and the whole situation was shady so there is no telling what she ate and she was a dog who would eat stuff she shouldnt.

Really hope you guys are able to help Klaus.


----------



## telavivgsd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> We lost a dog to liver failure. We did not know what was going on until it was too late. She could not survive the anesthesia she was so weak. It was awful. She did not have behavioral symptoms.
> 
> She went downhill so fast within 24 hours they could not even sedate her for a biopsy because they said she would not survive it.
> 
> They said it was either shunts or previous trauma to the liver (non lethal poisoning), which was possible because there was an incident with her previous owner where she had gotten into something and had some very severe hemorrhagic gastro enteritis that she survived. She was being kept by the owners friend and the whole situation was shady so there is no telling what she ate and she was a dog who would eat stuff she shouldnt.
> 
> Really hope you guys are able to help Klaus.


Thank you! From what I understood from the vet, if this is what it is, it's progression would soon speed up and would lead to full blown seizures/coma/death. Again, if this is what it is. They still don't yet have what they need to do the test, but hopefully this week. For now, he's completely back to normal - no weird stares, no longer so nervous in the crate, nothing. Still a doofus, but a normal doofus. 



DoggyLens said:


> Please keep us posted and I wish you the best getting to a solution


Thank you so much, I will definitely update as we learn more.


Selzer - Thank you for your post, and I agree with you. Honestly I'm stricter with him than I've ever been with a dog, but I really wouldn't want to need to be any stricter. I'll admit I'm not perfect at NILIF - sometimes when he comes and puts his head in my lap and looks at me, I just pet him, because he's adorable and I love him. Hopefully we figure out what is causing this and can find a realistic solution that works for all of us. 


Something a little interesting happened early this morning. We've been letting him sleep loose and muzzled, partly to see if it happened again (we have the movement activated camera on now) and partly because he's been nervous in the cage. At 4 am ( :| ) the guy who cleans the hallways was making a big racket outside our door, and Klaus woke up and started barking. He still has a barking issue when we're home, but we're working on it. He started to go towards our door growling, and then turned toward my side of the bed and came toward me growling. Same sounding growl as last time, I couldn't see him so I'm not sure about his posture. I thought, great, this is my favorite way to wake up. I sat up and he continued towards me growling, and then just put his head in my lap like he does for pets and licked me. It obviously wasn't the same as the other times. Maybe he just figured it out when he was close enough to smell me, or maybe he was just growling at the guy while coming toward me. He's an odd one.


----------



## sebrench

telavivgsd said:


> I sat up and he continued towards me growling, and then just put his head in my lap like he does for pets and licked me. It obviously wasn't the same as the other times. Maybe he just figured it out when he was close enough to smell me, or maybe he was just growling at the guy while coming toward me. He's an odd one.


I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you and your family (and Klaus) are going through this. I've been following your thread but haven't commented as it's beyond my experience level. I hope that the vet and the lab work continues to yield results for you. Has the vet checked his vision? I'm sure Klaus has already been through much testing to rule out any sensory problems like that. Sending you good wishes.


----------



## telavivgsd

sebrench said:


> I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you and your family (and Klaus) are going through this. I've been following your thread but haven't commented as it's beyond my experience level. I hope that the vet and the lab work continues to yield results for you. Has the vet checked his vision? I'm sure Klaus has already been through much testing to rule out any sensory problems like that. Sending you good wishes.




Thank you  The vet checked and said his vision is fine, and that he shouldn't be relying solely on vision as a dog anyhow, but I did read that the effects of liver problems can cause intermittent vision problems, so if a shunt is the problem, I assume that could be a symptom. I'm praying we will know more after this next test.


----------



## Suki's Mom

sebrench said:


> I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you and your family (and Klaus) are going through this. I've been following your thread but haven't commented as it's beyond my experience level. I hope that the vet and the lab work continues to yield results for you.


This is how I feel as well! I'm thinking about you guys.


----------



## telavivgsd

Suki's Mom said:


> This is how I feel as well! I'm thinking about you guys.


Thank you so much, we really do appreciate all the support and kind words :smile2:


----------



## telavivgsd

Well Mr. Hyde is back this morning. Klaus and I have gotten a lot closer since the last time I posted, and we've had no incidents. This morning as soon as I saw his face I knew we would. He woke and went to bark early this morning. Lately when this happens we call him to us and tell him to sit and pet him and he stops barking. This happens probably every other morning with no issue. This morning when I called him to me to sit he looked at me kind of sideways, and wouldn't come all the way to me, but he sat and stopped barking, then went and laid back down. I almost got up to get water and in my core I knew that if I did he would growl at me, which I hadn't felt since it happened. 

Anyways he did, twice, but this time he's muzzled, so I walked towards him and gave him the "place" command, and he backed off. It took me saying it a few times but he went to place and when I released him he was back to normal. Now he's back to giving me these cold stares again, which is super because I just finished my job yesterday to go back to studying, and now Klaus and I get to spend every day together, just the two of us :/ 

The good news is, we took him in for the ammonia test last night, so maybe it will have picked something up. We should hear this morning.

In comparing the incidents, I noticed two other similarities: last night we gave him a raw egg with dinner, which we haven't since the last episode. We did it because we wanted to replicate what we fed before the last time for the ammonia test. He used to eat a raw egg every other day though, so I'm not sure if that's relevant. 

The other thing, which is maybe more relevant, is that it's been raining for the past day for the first time since the last incident. We have a leak in our roof which is getting fixed at Israeli speed (aka really slowly) so water is dripping through and small pieces of plaster are falling off. We try to keep buckets and towels there and clean it as fast as it falls, but my husband said Klaus had gotten a hold of a piece of the plaster last time he thinks, and this time I saw some small pieces in his water bowl. The ceiling was recently cleaned of mold from the leak, so the water dripping through is going through the residue from that cleaner, and whatever's on the other side of the ceiling (probably more mold ugh). I've cleaned and moved his water bowl and I'm going to try to keep him away from that area. This is probably our last rainy week for the year and then they can finally fix the ceiling. We will mention it to the vet when he calls with the test results. 

He's also been licking his back leg like crazy. He's in his crate eating but once I let him out and put the muzzle on I'll check. 

Sorry for the kind of useless post, it just makes me feel a little better to get it out here. I'll update with the test results too. I just want my Dr. Jekyll back


----------



## KaiserAus

telavivgsd said:


> The good news is, we took him in for the ammonia test last night, so maybe it will have picked something up. We should hear this morning.


Not sure if I missed an update - I was wondering if you got any answers from the tests, how are things going with you now?


----------



## Gsdlove001

Maybe turn the light on next time before approaching and instead of saying "no" maybe have a more relaxed tone saying "that's enough" or "come on". I am only going by the experience I have had with my male he is timid with everyone even has made me timid with his reactions but if my tone is different than scolding and instead redirecting his attention I have gotten great results. Good luck to you sounds like you have a wonderful protector


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## telavivgsd

KaiserAus said:


> Not sure if I missed an update - I was wondering if you got any answers from the tests, how are things going with you now?




Thank you for checking in, that's so nice! Sorry I forgot to update. Klaus' ammonia levels were actually on the low side, so the vet doesn't think it's a shunt. He said if he has another incident like this to bring him in immediately and have them draw blood at that time. For now he's referred us to their behaviorist, and if she still thinks it's medical then they'll do brain scans.

I've started to think that maybe it is just behavioral. He's also started marking on our walks, so I think maybe he's maturing a bit and seeing if he can push me around. Since I came towards him last time he did it and he backed off, he's never done it again. I think he may have been anticipating me crating him or something, but I really don't know. 

He and I have been spending the days together lately since I'm currently free during the day, and I think it's really helped our relationship. I think when this first started happening I wound up nervous around him, and he sensed that and thought he could use growling to get what he wanted. This is no longer the case, and the last time he growled at me I told him to knock it off and he did. 

We have an appointment in a few weeks with the behaviorist so she will shed more light on it too. I think the issues with the crate stem from him being an anxious dog, particularly in regard to people coming into our house. We once had a repair guy in the house and he went a bit nuts in the crate - I think he was frustrated by the confinement and very upset that someone was in the house. A lot of this is our own fault - we haven't had people over since he was young, and I think that's been a negative. People just don't go to each other's houses a lot here - we just meet out. We're going to start having people he likes come over a lot, just to stop in and say hi (he'll be muzzled at first) and try to start making people coming in a positive thing. We also moved his crate to a different spot and he hasn't growled since. 

We're still careful with him around people and such, just because those incidents were unpredictable, but so far his behavior outside the home hasn't changed at all. I'll probably update this again after we meet with the behaviorist, but hopefully with training and growing up we can move past this


----------



## telavivgsd

Gsdlove001 said:


> Maybe turn the light on next time before approaching and instead of saying "no" maybe have a more relaxed tone saying "that's enough" or "come on". I am only going by the experience I have had with my male he is timid with everyone even has made me timid with his reactions but if my tone is different than scolding and instead redirecting his attention I have gotten great results. Good luck to you sounds like you have a wonderful protector




Yes, I definitely never approach him in the dark anymore, and I do think his behavior was making me nervous which was making it worse. When the last few times happened, my voice was very happy, high pitched, but I think he knew that was because I was nervous. Last time I responded in a cool firm voice and he stopped. Hopefully changing my reaction will change his. He is a good protector technically, I would just prefer he wasn't protecting against me lol


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

If changing your approach with him changes the behavior, then I would put that as a big check mark in the "non medical" column.

For what its worth, my experience with dogs who want to growl at people has been this:

-trying to figure out what the dog's unpleasant association is, if there is one, and make ir more pleasant if possible. So try to address the root cause of what the dog is u happy about....if it is being crated do crate games, if it is collar grab desensitize that. If the dog I just being a grumpy brat and not trying to avoid discomfort I still will try to turn things happy....instead of grabbing the dog to make it go somewhere I might get a super tasty reward and say "guess what? You get to go( wherever)" and con the dog into thinking I just did them a favor

-try not to let the dog "get" or achieve anything by growling, even moving your feet a little potentially gets the dog something. 

-I try not to escalate once a dog has threatened me....I try not to raise my voice or do any body language that responds to the aggression in a way the dog will interperate as me responding to aggression with more aggression. My goal is to remain calm and methodical and not trigger the dog to feel like he has to either defend himself or fight me on principle, while still maintaining that I will not give in to the dog's growly demand whatever it was.

-give the dog super clear boundaries and expectations and do be firm about enforcing them but still try to incorporate valuable rewards for the dog wherever possible to change their mindset from drugery or co flict to anticipating something good.

-I have had fairly good response with especiall clickers but also verbal marker words. If the dog is well conditioned to the marker, I have applied this to situations where I think the growl is coming but before it does. So a dog who hates being groomed and growls to make it stop as an example: I know what length of time or body part or pressure with the brush the dog can tolerate before it growls. So I do 80 percent of what I know the dog can tolerate then click and treat. I have seen introducing this positive marker short circuit the nastiness because the properly conditioned dog's demeanor changes radically when it hears the click. The dog gets rewarded then started over (unless that is all the dog is likely to succeed at that day then start over tomorrow). Say 1 brush stroke is all the dog can do to start, then after the first click the dog is relaxed and you find you can do 2 brush strokes then click. The dog's mindset starts to change to anticipating the click from anticipating unhappiness that they must ward off by growling

I have also used that same basic idea to fix kennel aggression. Kennel the dog and know he will blow after 10 seconds, so af 8 seconds I click, reward, release from kennel, turn it into a big game. Dog starts going into the kennel anticipating the clicker game which triggers rewarding brain chemistry instead of the repeat loop of fence fighting when being put into the kennel. You can just increase what you ask of the dog before the click to the point that they are able to be handled fairly normally but they are no longer waiting for an opportun ity to be nasty but waiting for an opportunity to get a reward.


----------



## telavivgsd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> If changing your approach with him changes the behavior, then I would put that as a big check mark in the "non medical" column.
> 
> 
> 
> For what its worth, my experience with dogs who want to growl at people has been this:
> 
> 
> 
> -trying to figure out what the dog's unpleasant association is, if there is one, and make ir more pleasant if possible. So try to address the root cause of what the dog is u happy about....if it is being crated do crate games, if it is collar grab desensitize that. If the dog I just being a grumpy brat and not trying to avoid discomfort I still will try to turn things happy....instead of grabbing the dog to make it go somewhere I might get a super tasty reward and say "guess what? You get to go( wherever)" and con the dog into thinking I just did them a favor
> 
> 
> 
> -try not to let the dog "get" or achieve anything by growling, even moving your feet a little potentially gets the dog something.
> 
> 
> 
> -I try not to escalate once a dog has threatened me....I try not to raise my voice or do any body language that responds to the aggression in a way the dog will interperate as me responding to aggression with more aggression. My goal is to remain calm and methodical and not trigger the dog to feel like he has to either defend himself or fight me on principle, while still maintaining that I will not give in to the dog's growly demand whatever it was.
> 
> 
> 
> -give the dog super clear boundaries and expectations and do be firm about enforcing them but still try to incorporate valuable rewards for the dog wherever possible to change their mindset from drugery or co flict to anticipating something good.
> 
> 
> 
> -I have had fairly good response with especiall clickers but also verbal marker words. If the dog is well conditioned to the marker, I have applied this to situations where I think the growl is coming but before it does. So a dog who hates being groomed and growls to make it stop as an example: I know what length of time or body part or pressure with the brush the dog can tolerate before it growls. So I do 80 percent of what I know the dog can tolerate then click and treat. I have seen introducing this positive marker short circuit the nastiness because the properly conditioned dog's demeanor changes radically when it hears the click. The dog gets rewarded then started over (unless that is all the dog is likely to succeed at that day then start over tomorrow). Say 1 brush stroke is all the dog can do to start, then after the first click the dog is relaxed and you find you can do 2 brush strokes then click. The dog's mindset starts to change to anticipating the click from anticipating unhappiness that they must ward off by growling
> 
> 
> 
> I have also used that same basic idea to fix kennel aggression. Kennel the dog and know he will blow after 10 seconds, so af 8 seconds I click, reward, release from kennel, turn it into a big game. Dog starts going into the kennel anticipating the clicker game which triggers rewarding brain chemistry instead of the repeat loop of fence fighting when being put into the kennel. You can just increase what you ask of the dog before the click to the point that they are able to be handled fairly normally but they are no longer waiting for an opportun ity to be nasty but waiting for an opportunity to get a reward.




Thank you so much, this is all really valuable and helpful! I have used the clicker for training new behaviors so he is conditioned to it, and I will definitely try using it with the kennel and any other behavior like this. The main issue has been that his growling has been so random and so rare (outside of the kennel) that I haven't really been able to anticipate it. However if it happens again I will absolutely follow your recommendations. I'm trying to add more positive reinforcement to our everyday activities as well while still staying firm with our boundaries just like you say, and I really think it's improving things. Thanks so much!


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

The randomness makes it hard. Keep in mind what I was describing is preemptive work, not giving rewards once the dog has growled.

Any way you can think of to recreate any part of any scenario that led to growling, chop it up into tiny pieces that you know he will succeed at and reaard him for success.

Check out the crate games DVD since he has crate issues. 

Bottom line, all of the positive reward based stuff is to change his mindset and create a happy, cooperative relationship for normal day to day stuff that *might* hopefully make him less grumpy to begin with. It is NOT something you start doing in the moment once the dog has growled at you, or even right after the dog has growled at you.

This can even help grumpy brats but it works best with dogs that are truly uncomfortable for some reason (I have no way of knowing which one yours is). I mean uncomfortable as in stress. 

You probably need everything for this dog, fair corrections, very firm boundaries, but if you have those, making day to day stuff as happy and rewarding as possible can only help in my opinion.

One that comes to my mind is one of my boarders who falls into the grumpy brat category. If I ask her to get up out of her bed to go to her kennel for the night (she spends most of her time in the house with us), she might growl at me. I don't like to force a confrontation, she is somewhat stressed away from home, I could force the issue in a number of ways. She is not a dangerous dog, and forcing the issue just does not seem super productive to me. I can call her in a friendly voice to get a cookie, which she knows what that means, and she will hop up happy and go put herself in her kennel. 

Once this dog was really out of sorts and I don't know why. But she had been boarded a LOT just then so that could be it. She would give me the stink eye if I walked by her in her bed and was just generally feeling really sorry for herself. I started walking over near her and tossing her a treat before ever getting stink eye or anything else. After a few times of that she was looking happy when I got near. After a half a day of cookies raining from the sky she snapped out of it and stopped being such a scrooge. Who knows what her problem was. She needed to cheer up, so I cheered her up.

Cookies are definitely not the only way or the only thing needed but if the dog is into food you can definitely use that to your advantage.


----------



## telavivgsd

Thecowboysgirl said:


> The randomness makes it hard. Keep in mind what I was describing is preemptive work, not giving rewards once the dog has growled.
> 
> 
> 
> Any way you can think of to recreate any part of any scenario that led to growling, chop it up into tiny pieces that you know he will succeed at and reaard him for success.
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the crate games DVD since he has crate issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line, all of the positive reward based stuff is to change his mindset and create a happy, cooperative relationship for normal day to day stuff that *might* hopefully make him less grumpy to begin with. It is NOT something you start doing in the moment once the dog has growled at you, or even right after the dog has growled at you.
> 
> 
> 
> This can even help grumpy brats but it works best with dogs that are truly uncomfortable for some reason (I have no way of knowing which one yours is). I mean uncomfortable as in stress.
> 
> 
> 
> You probably need everything for this dog, fair corrections, very firm boundaries, but if you have those, making day to day stuff as happy and rewarding as possible can only help in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> One that comes to my mind is one of my boarders who falls into the grumpy brat category. If I ask her to get up out of her bed to go to her kennel for the night (she spends most of her time in the house with us), she might growl at me. I don't like to force a confrontation, she is somewhat stressed away from home, I could force the issue in a number of ways. She is not a dangerous dog, and forcing the issue just does not seem super productive to me. I can call her in a friendly voice to get a cookie, which she knows what that means, and she will hop up happy and go put herself in her kennel.
> 
> 
> 
> Once this dog was really out of sorts and I don't know why. But she had been boarded a LOT just then so that could be it. She would give me the stink eye if I walked by her in her bed and was just generally feeling really sorry for herself. I started walking over near her and tossing her a treat before ever getting stink eye or anything else. After a few times of that she was looking happy when I got near. After a half a day of cookies raining from the sky she snapped out of it and stopped being such a scrooge. Who knows what her problem was. She needed to cheer up, so I cheered her up.
> 
> 
> 
> Cookies are definitely not the only way or the only thing needed but if the dog is into food you can definitely use that to your advantage.




Thank you so much. I do think sometimes he is just really grumpy. Occasionally when he follows a command he makes a face that clearly shows he thinks he's doing you a huge favor  Maybe it's just being a teenager?

I will definitely check out the crate games. The crate is not his favorite place, in that he rarely goes in there on his own without a command, but he doesn't seem to mind it in general, unless you're close to it and staring at it as I've mentioned. If the door to the crate is open, though, then it's all ok. I would like to make the crate a happier place for him, so hopefully the games can help. 

As I've mentioned, I recently left my job to study again, and I feel like since I've left the stress of my job, my energy has been much more upbeat and positive, and I think it's really had an effect on our relationship. I think keeping my energy positive is something I need to be mindful of with him, because I think he senses things like that more strongly than other dogs I've had. I think your ideas about rewards will help keep the energy more upbeat.

Thanks again for all your help!


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## Thecowboysgirl

hmmm...my boy usually has a cheery attitude about most things. He will do a peaceful protest to being put away or leaving the tracking field which is where he backs slowly and dramatically away from me. He does this with a ridiculous look on his face which he has perfected because it makes me laugh and then he thinks he has conned another five minutes out of me. I try to mix up how I catch him for these things (kenneling or catching when playtime over). I CAN order him to cut the crap and turn himself in and he will. but usually I call him in as if I am going to leash him but at the last second I throw his toy instead. Keeps him guessing so he comes in enthusiastic and he never knows which will be the last. 

I always reward for kenneling, every time.

I spend a lot of time thinking about how to get dogs to be compliant because I don't want to be chasing boarders around the yard or dragging dogs into kennels if it can be avoided. They board better when they are happy, and it is less work for me if they cooperate. so I try to look at it from their point of view and be sure their needs are met and there is something in it for them.

I think crate games could help you a LOT.

The only time my personal dog is ever straight up grumpy is when I have to do something painful or unpleasant to him. In this instance I have found that he is apprehensive and bring gentler makes him feel better and calmer vs. telling him he better not be giving me stink eye which makes him feel more tense and combative. That's where motivation matters. If he were just being a jerk, being gentler might not work. But he is nervous and uncomfortable and if I relax with him he will let me do stuff to him that he wouldn't if I were being combative with him. I still dont back down, I just force the issue in a gentle and compassionate way which works for him

I sure your dog and mine are very different.... 

but practicing calling your dog from the front of the apartment where he barks, but when he isn't barking, and reward him with some delightful reward...whatever he likes best...same with sending him to bed or crate...if those things have heavy negative association you are up against a lot to change it so keep in mind 5 reps isn't going to cut it. How many reps of negative does he have under his belt, how habitual is it, is any of it self rewarding...

Anyway good luck and let us know how he is doing & really hope you get him turned around.


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## Thecowboysgirl

PS it's Susan Garrett Say Yes Dog Training I think where you can buy the crate games dvd


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## telavivgsd

Just a small update for anyone who has been following along - the middle couple weeks in February were great, no incidents, he and I were getting along well and his training was going great too. In the past week, though, his condition has started really deteriorating. One morning he lunged at my face without any provocation - luckily he was muzzled. Again that was first thing in the morning. In the past few days, it's gotten even worse. He's now gone after my husband a few times, and again looks very confused all the time. It's no longer limited to the morning, and the incidents are increasing. He can be happy one minute - getting pets, wagging his tail and enjoying himself and then leap up growling and lunge at us. He also seems really confused and upset. We're still waiting for our behaviorist appointment and we're discussing neutering (earlier than we wanted) as a last resort to maybe curb the aggression and make him manageable. I'm sort of back to thinking that it's a medical issue since he's getting worse so fast and seems so confused and upset after the incidents, especially towards my husband.

Like I said, we are working with our vet, trainer, and soon the behaviorist. To be clear we are being exceedingly careful with him, especially in public. Since we are keeping him muzzled unless playing, training or eating lately, neither of us show any reactions to his behavior, and he's never used it to "get his way", so I don't think it's self rewarding to him, and like I said he seems upset after. 

Ok that ended up not being such a short update. Again thank you so much to all of you who have offered advice and have been so supportive.


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## KaiserAus

I am so sorry to read this, I had really hoped you guys had turned a corner.
Could it be some form of epilepsy?


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## telavivgsd

KaiserAus said:


> I am so sorry to read this, I had really hoped you guys had turned a corner.
> 
> Could it be some form of epilepsy?




Thanks for the kind thoughts. Epilepsy is what I had originally thought, and the fact that it's getting worse so quickly seems to support that from what I've read, but other things do not - he will usually still follow our commands during these incidents (while snarling the whole time) and his aggression in his crate with the crate closed has come back and gotten worse. I'm not entirely convinced though that this isn't a separate issue that is getting exacerbated by how confused and upset everything else is making him, because when you let him out of the crate he's fine and all tail wags. 

I guess the behaviorist will know more about that. In common is the fact that many of these outbursts have come just after he's woken up, but now that it's getting worse that's not always the case. (To clarify, we never touch him when he's sleeping and try to avoid ever startling him awake, so when I say after he's woken up, I mean after he's woken up on his own.


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## Chip18

I am so sorry ... it's just not sounding good.


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## telavivgsd

Chip18 said:


> I am so sorry ... it's just not sounding good.




Thanks Chip. Yes, I'm feeling pretty discouraged the past couple days. He's lashed out at us a few times today already, and then went back to normal, sweet Klaus. 

Earlier I was scratching his ears for five or so minutes (his favorite) when suddenly I watched his eyes dilate and get hard and he lunged at me again. It's so sad, I can't even be mad because it's like he's a different dog. I feel so bad for him. 

We have a call in with the vet this morning - maybe we will take him in for the brain scans even before the behaviorist appointment. Our vet had recommended meeting with her first before shelling out the money for the scans, but the past few days have not really seemed behavioral and it's getting very difficult to deal with safely.


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## newlie

telavivgsd said:


> Thanks Chip. Yes, I'm feeling pretty discouraged the past couple days. He's lashed out at us a few times today already, and then went back to normal, sweet Klaus.
> 
> Earlier I was scratching his ears for five or so minutes (his favorite) when suddenly I watched his eyes dilate and get hard and he lunged at me again. It's so sad, I can't even be mad because it's like he's a different dog. I feel so bad for him.
> 
> We have a call in with the vet this morning - maybe we will take him in for the brain scans even before the behaviorist appointment. Our vet had recommended meeting with her first before shelling out the money for the scans, but the past few days have not really seemed behavioral and it's getting very difficult to deal with safely.


I am so sorry, this has just been a horrible time for you and your family. I wish there was more we could do.

I agree with you about the brain scans, something is just not right.


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## telavivgsd

newlie said:


> I am so sorry, this has just been a horrible time for you and your family. I wish there was more we could do.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you about the brain scans, something is just not right.




Thanks Newlie. It is difficult but I really appreciate the support we've received here. 

We talked to the vet and he'd also like to rerun the ammonia test, this time we will try to do it during a time that he's being aggressive. I really hope we can find something wrong or find a solutions because going on like this isn't sustainable in the long run.


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## Stevenzachsmom

I am so sorry you are going through this. You have really gone above and beyond what many of us would do - or what we would expect anyone to do. I know that I couldn't do it. I would have to let him go. I know that is the last thing you want to think about. I pray that the vet or behaviorist can find a reason for this. As it is, he is not a safe dog. No one should have to live like that.


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## Muskeg

Is there any chance you have video of these more recent incidents? 

I'm sorry to hear things aren't getting better with him, but I'm not going to give any advice on the path forward. Once you get a brain scan, perhaps you'll know more. I wouldn't do anything drastic before then. Make sure to stay safe. It would be very heartbreaking if my own dog was coming after me, I can't even.... I'm sorry you are dealing with this.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I am so sorry...

Don't know what else to say.

Except I agree, if you haven't been if you can video as much as you can you might be able to get opinions from more people that were more accurate if they could see exactly what is happening.


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## ghinchcl

Chip18 said:


> Aww ... gezzz are we so bad that relatively recent mentions, feel the need to ask for restraint from the "collective???" When they feel it's uh ... "crunch time" as it were??? That ... is kinda sad ... and I feel kinda it's kinda "inaccurate??" Frankly these days ... it seems most of the rancor it seems to me ... is generated from the "Usual Suspects" towards the "usual Suspects??" The "OP's" tend to get "lost" in the "Dust Ups!"
> 
> My particular "bias" is that I don't really look at the owners?? I only "focus" on the issue "at hand" I'm not really into the "touchy feely" kinda" thing,... as someone on here "once said" it's not what you say it's how you say it."
> 
> Sparring "owners feelings" may help them feel better but it won't help them with there dog?? So yeah by and large ... I don't bother trying ... that does not make me "Right" but it does make me me.
> 
> To wit ... the barking thing at "nothing" is "crap" the dog ... was a ticking time bomb ... sooner or later ... there was bound to be "Blow Back!" Apparently it was "never addressed" "fully" it was just "lived with??" But "this time" ... "the crap hit the fan as it were!" And the obnoxious barking was an "issue!"
> 
> "Blame" the "Kohler" guy if you will ... but as I often say to people that do the "private trainer" thing ... the dog "lives" with you 24x7 .... a "private trainer" can only do so much. The dog barked at nothing ... "you understood" he did this and you choose to "live with it" and not "address it" and this time ... that did not work out so well???
> 
> Lesson one ... the "Crate" it's a "tool" if..." it is needed or not depends on the dog?? If a dog has "no behavioral issues" then the use of a "Crate is "optional??" If a dog does have "Issues" not so much ... if the dog had been in a "Crate" ... none of this would have happened.
> 
> You "apparently" have a "Bark Collar" and chose not to use it?? Well ... if a dog "has a barking issue" you have three options "address" it with a tool, ((Bark Collar) address it directly (leash corrections in our out of the Crate) or live with it?? You "seemed" to have chose the last option "until You didn't???"
> 
> And your husband and the dog ... got "lucky!" My standard advise when dealing with a dog with "issues" is to use a "Drag Leash!" A short leash with the handle cut off (for use indoors) so it does not get caught up on furniture ... puppy or dog ... I'm pretty big on not having to "lay hands on a dog "to correct them!"
> 
> So blame the dog or the trainer if you will ... but as I see it ... the dog had an issue that was "never properly addressed??" Put the dog in a "Crate" at night ... tie a rope around the "Crate" and if he "barks ... for "nothing" yank the crap out of the Crate! His "behavior" "Barking" in the "Crate" has "consequences" ... "let him figure it out." Or screw it ... go full Michael Ellis on him! If he continues to bark ... flip the whole freaking "Crate over!!" Yeah "ME" ... did that! Most likely ... a bad day for him but it worked ... that dog ...shut the heck up, ... "Problem Solved!"
> 
> Frankly "ME" gets on my last nerve... but I luv'ed that one! Simple direct and to the point ... "How you like me now!" So yeah ... "I'm not big on the touchy feely approach ... I "Like to keep it real" for the "Dog! And yeah as they say "talk is cheap" but ... you best belive ... that if I had a "dog" that chose to "Bark" for freaking "No Reason???" He'd not be doing that "Crap" long!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aww well ... "that's just my two cents" ... I'll let it go at that.


 
you sound like a horrible dog owner CHIP, Flipping the dog cage over?? Great advise...


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## Dotbat215

ghinchcl said:


> you sound like a horrible dog owner CHIP, Flipping the dog cage over?? Great advise...



Especially with a dog that is potentially experiencing a medical issue. Sweet Jesus. 

Flip the crate and maybe the dog doesn't bark again, but it's out of fear and not respect. This dog already sounds like he has issues...I doubt he needs or deserves to live in (more) fear.


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## Jenny720

A very heartbreaking ordeal so sorry you are going through this.


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## telavivgsd

Dotbat215 said:


> Especially with a dog that is potentially experiencing a medical issue. Sweet Jesus.
> 
> Flip the crate and maybe the dog doesn't bark again, but it's out of fear and not respect. This dog already sounds like he has issues...I doubt he needs or deserves to live in (more) fear.



We haven't punished Klaus for these outbursts beyond a firm "No" and having him go to his crate. That said I believe he also hasn't gotten away with anything different because of his behavior. He has gotten more or less dragged to his crate the couple times when he wouldn't follow our commands and he couldn't be snapped out of it when coming after us, but that's been the extent of it. 

We're trying really hard to keep the energy in the house low key and relaxed, because I know he's very distressed by everything and it's been hard on him. 



Jenny720 said:


> A very heartbreaking ordeal so sorry you are going through this.



Thanks Jenny, I appreciate it.


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## Dotbat215

telavivgsd said:


> We're trying really hard to keep the energy in the house low key and relaxed, because I know he's very distressed by everything and it's been hard on him.


I agree with you...I was responding to something Chip said that I thought was totally not appropriate for the situation at hand.

I think you guys are handling this well. I've lived with a dog that had major behavior issues with seemingly no trigger. It is tough and draining. I wish you and your pup the best!


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## Thecowboysgirl

Michael Ellis flipped a crate with a dog in it to punish barking? That's one I'm going to have to investigate.


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## melissajancie

I have no words of advice at all. I am just so sorry that you are going through this. I do believe that a brain scan is in order because it just makes sense that something is out of wack and it isn't you.


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## selzer

I am sorry you are going through this. 

Do what you can, try the behaviorist, if you can do a brain scan...

At some point, you may have to make a decision that most of us dread, putting down a dog that seems healthy, but has behavior that is not safe to live with. I will only say that if it comes to that, don't let anyone give you any crap about it. You have gone an extra mile for this, ten more likely. And what is going on currently isn't a comfortable place for a dog to be in. We might say healthy because we don't have anything we can put our finger on, no diagnoses. But a dog with severe behavioral problems in not comfortable. Some say the lack of ease is disease. Sometimes you have to free a dog from its demons. 

I am sorry. I hope the professionals can come up with something solid. If unloading about the dog's behavior or progress is helpful, please do so here. I am not sure we can do much more than be a sounding board. Serious issues need hands on people that can see the dog and you with the dog, correct immediately if warranted, etc.


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## Chip18

ghinchcl said:


> you sound like a horrible dog owner CHIP, Flipping the dog cage over?? Great advise...


Yes ... "Worst dog owner ever!!" :smile2:

Your kinda late to the party as it were??? "Clearly" most of us "now" understand that this situation seems not to be a "Training Related issues??" And that just sucks ... but the "Crate Flipping" well if I was still going to be "hard core anal" I'd say ... *take it up with "Michael Ellis" * as he "Did it" "not me!" But you know ... no one ever goes to "source" attacking the messenger ... is lots easier! 

Still you know in light of how "apparently" "Heavy Handed" the mods can be at times ... "I'll now also just *"Stick my head in the sand" *and pretend like I have never heard of the "Crate Flipping thing!" >

But for the record ... "No One Here" made me my change postion! In a completely unrelated post ... a "Pro" on "BoxerForum" mentioned that he knew some "tool" that flipped a Crate and broke a dogs leg!!! :surprise:

That was "completely unsolicited, I was stunned??? But now because I do what I do ... "I" will pursue this further for my own edification. But for the "masses" ... you can put down your torches! No more "Crate Flipping" advise to be given by me. So the mods can stand down. 

Words from the "Worst Dog Owner Ever!!" :laugh2:


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## newlie

telavivgsd said:


> Thanks Newlie. It is difficult but I really appreciate the support we've received here.
> 
> We talked to the vet and he'd also like to rerun the ammonia test, this time we will try to do it during a time that he's being aggressive. I really hope we can find something wrong or find a solutions because going on like this isn't sustainable in the long run.


No, it is not sustainable in the long run, that would not be fair to you or your husband or even to Klaus. You are doing everything possible and more than most would so if worse comes to worse, you mustn't blame yourself. We all know there are dogs that, for whatever reason, are just not wired right. I hope that you find an answer soon and that it is one that can realistically be addressed.


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## Muskeg

I highly recommend a good board and train. I don't know what the options are in Israel, but if it's possible to ship him overseas I can give recommendations. 

From what I've seen, a lot of this is a young, nervy dog who is cuing in to owners who are (justifiably) afraid of him. I don't believe there is any medical issue, the dog needs to get sorted out by a GOOD trainer. I've seen and raised dogs who could have gone this way with insecure handling. It's not desirable temperament, for most, but it also doesn't mean the dog is unstable. 

Again, I am not blaming the owners here, sometimes dog-owner are not a good match, and this is a difficult dog. 

And please, people posting, I think recommending euthanasia for a behavioral problem online is irresponsible at best. There are plenty of people who have never worked with or experienced a dog like this. Aggression does not indicate a screw loose or that the dog is fighting demons.

George Attla (sled dog racer) said: "the dog never makes a mistake. He is just a dog and he does what he does because he is a dog and he thinks like a dog. It is you that makes the mistake because you haven't trained him to do want you want him to do when you want him to do it. Or you have misjudged what he is able to do, physically or mentally. So if a mistake is made (in the team), it is you that has made it, not the dog."


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## MineAreWorkingline

Well said.


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## telavivgsd

Everyone, thanks for all the comments and support as always, I'm talking with Muskeg and others privately and trying to figure things out. I will come back and update down the road.


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## ghinchcl

Still the worst. You made it sound like your actions so own it and not pass on the blame to someone else to save face. Your tone in your messages stink of arrogance. I just hope you treat your dogs well


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## Chip18

ghinchcl said:


> Still the worst. You made it sound like your actions so own it and not pass on the blame to someone else to save face. Your tone in your messages stink of arrogance. I just hope you treat your dogs well


Oh well ... whatever no point in trying to defend against "Facts Not In Evidence???"

My record on the "CF" is pretty "Crystal Clear." Whenever I mentioned the "CF" I "Always give the source." Hmm, but I'll take a tip from "Slam" and since the originator of the "CF" is not here to defend himself and since I'll "pretend I've never heard of it??? I'll no longer throw his name out there. >


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## Baillif

The necessity to punish dogs sometimes is unquestionable. Bad form to be too cavalier about it and furthermore tactful training should be encouraged wherever possible.

I forget who said it maybe Bart Bellon maybe Ivan but the gist of what was said was this.

If you want to take a car apart you can do it with a screw driver or you can do it with a bomb.

The bomb gets it done faster than the screw driver but there are pieces that need to be fixed, salvaged, and a general mess to pick up afterward.


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## newlie

I do not want to derail attention from the troubles this family is experiencing. I just feel like that perhaps there are some who are reading more into my post than was actually there. I agreed with the OP that this situation was not sustainable in the long term. I commended them for everything they were trying and said "if worse comes to worse" not to blame themselves if at some point, they felt they could not go on. In no way was I recommending immediate euthanasia. The fact is that none of us can diagnose what the problem is over the internet. None of us can say for sure whether the problem is medical or behavioral. Yes, we do know that there are dogs not wired right, however we cannot say for sure that Klaus is one of them. My last statement was that I still hoped the OP could find an answer and that the problem was fixable. 

I apologize if I was somehow unclear. I wish nothing but the best for this family.


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## selzer

newlie said:


> I do not want to derail attention from the troubles this family is experiencing. I just feel like that perhaps there are some who are reading more into my post than was actually there. I agreed with the OP that this situation was not sustainable in the long term. I commended them for everything they were trying and said "if worse comes to worse" not to blame themselves if at some point, they felt they could not go on. In no way was I recommending immediate euthanasia. The fact is that none of us can diagnose what the problem is over the internet. None of us can say for sure whether the problem is medical or behavioral. Yes, we do know that there are dogs not wired right, however we cannot say for sure that Klaus is one of them. My last statement was that I still hoped the OP could find an answer and that the problem was fixable.
> 
> I apologize if I was somehow unclear. I wish nothing but the best for this family.


Newlie, I said basically the same thing. Try everything, but if it comes to that... I can't imagine owning a dog that needed to have a muzzle on at home with the family. That really isn't normal. I'm used to dogs that can ride for three hours, loose in the back seat with a car seat occupied with a small child that the dog just met that day. 

Bouts of aggressiveness to the owners that the dog had for months, with no apparent triggers, I dunno. Maybe a board and train with someone very experienced, for a significant time so they are likely to experience the problem, would make sense, to get the dog properly evaluated.


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## Springbrz

Couple Questions

1: Did your vet ever find a reason for the abnormal liver function since the ammonia test ruled out liver shunts. Although this article states the ammonia test isn't all that reliable ruling out Hepatic Encephalitis 
Hepatic Encephalopathy In Dogs And Cats

2: You said you had a mold issue. Has Klaus been checked for a fungal infection. Fungal infections could be a cause neurological symptoms and HE
3. Have you seen a vet neurologist yet

I don't know...this could be purely behavioral as he matures and his true jerk is coming to surface. 
But I just feel like there is something medical going on as well. Liver function shouldn't be abnormal in a young dog for no reason. 

Easier said than done but any chance the next time he starts acting off you or your husband could record his behavior and the post episode behavior start to finish.


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## telavivgsd

Selzer and Newlie, I've appreciated all of the input you have given me on this thread, and to be clear I've never felt that anyone here has recommended that we jump straight to euthanasia nor has anyone presumed what is wrong with Klaus sight unseen.


We were able to move up our appointment with the behaviorist to today. We met with her for 3 hours where we discussed everything that's been going on, watched all of the many videos we've taken including some of him sleeping, and she observed Klaus interacting with us in person and just hanging out on his own. In the end, in general she told us that she believes that Klaus is a very nervous dog who has formed a disconnect with reality, in that he has begun to see perceived threats in things that are not in reality threatening to him. She also thinks that there is something going on in his brain - either a sleep disorder, possibly the liver shunt, or something else that is making everything progressively worse, particularly when he's asleep or right after he wakes up. We went over everything with her and we're able to label some specific "triggers" of his behavior, but she explained that the problem with this kind of dog is that even if we avoid the triggers we've found, he will begin to make new ones, so his behavior will continue to appear unpredictable. 

Springbrz, thank you for what you posted, I discussed the article you sent (she is also a vet) and she agrees that the ammonia test is very difficult to get a correct result on because the ammonia disappears so quickly but she said we can keep trying, but she can't guarantee that we could catch it. 

We discussed some possible ways of potentially dealing with this, and we came home with a lot to think about. I do put faith in her qualifications and what she said, and I think she got a pretty good representation of Klaus' recent behavior in person to go off of. 

I think that this will more or less be the end of my posting in this thread. My husband and I have a lot of our own discussion ahead of us, and we need to start figuring out what a realistic best case scenario here entails. I so appreciate all of the advice, support and direction I've received here. Thank you to everyone and I still hold on to hope that down the line I may be able to update you with a positive resolution to all of this.


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## Lilian Meyer

Hi, I'm not an expert here, but I've had many dogs growing up. Alot of aggressive rescues as well as puppies, so I just saw a couple of red flags in your posts. 
My main observasion is that although your husband seems to be leader of the pack, Klaus does not consider you to be definitively above him in the "ranking" of your pack. This was key in helping most of the dogs we took in. If you're the boss then what you say goes, he's clearly challenging you. I would look up "Doggy Dan's Training" he has a lot of useful tips about training all types of dogs with behaviour problems. I would say the "stick trick" and "calm freeze" would benefit you the most.
Anither thing is that if you are afraid of Klaus at any level, which you are if you are not willing to approach him without a muzzle, whether that fear is granted, or not, clearly places him above you in the pack. What we did with our most aggressive dog, who did bite at me a couple of times (but never too badly) was, after we had determined that I was above him in the pack, I would sit down (on a chair, not the ground) and turn my back to him. The main thing here is you have to trust that this dog, who you've raised and loved, will not bite to kill. The other helpful tip might sound ridiculous, but if he does bite at you. Do not pull away, it goes against everything you want to do in that moment, but more likely than not, that first impact will bring him to his senses very quickly. Again, the first step I would take is to do some behavior training of your own, I could write up some of it for you if you're interested. I believe that doing behavioral training with your dog is much more beneficial than doing it with a behaviorist, but do what is needed, of course. It just seems to me that he needs to know he's not the pack leader. Also, I would stop playing any aggressive-inducing games (though they may not seem it) like tug of war, with him. Any kind of playing where it can seem like he has "won" will reinforce the idea that he is, or can be, oack leader. So yes, there are some other things I can reccomend if this seems like an option to you.


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## telavivgsd

So a little update about Klaus: soon after we met with the behaviorist it became increasingly clear that his problem was neurological. He started staring into space a lot more, glassy eyed, and he was constantly restless and panting hard in his sleep. Once he woke up from a deep sleep snarling and snapping at the air. I was the first thing he saw, and he started growling at me, then my husband said his name from the other side of him and he whipped around and started snarling and snapping at my husband. He happened to be sleeping in the crate (by choice) and we had closed the gate, so it was ok. 

After that, we started him on Paxil, and after a couple weeks, I can say that I have definitely seen a difference. Hopefully I'm not jinxing it, but he is no longer an overly anxious dog, and while he still has his moments (usually right after waking) he snaps out of it within minutes now and goes back to normal. He also seems to know when he's feeling a bit off now, and will actually put himself in his crate during those times. The times that he has growled, he just lets out a quick growl then walks to his cage. He barks far less now, as he's not stressed, and he and I go to the dog park every day when it's empty and play - he even has a couple dog friends we meet there now to play with.

He's definitely not a "normal" dog, and he'll probably always sleep with his muzzle on for safety, but I think (*knock on wood*) that he's made some progress and keeping him is now feasible. Thank you for all the help and support, and I hope that if anyone finds this thread in the future because of a similar problem, they will find it useful.


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## Deb

I'm so glad the paxil is working and things are doing so much better! And thank you for giving us all an update! Love the picture!


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## telavivgsd

Deb said:


> I'm so glad the paxil is working and things are doing so much better! And thank you for giving us all an update! Love the picture!




Thanks Deb! And thank you so much for all your help and support while we've been going through this! I really appreciate it!


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## newlie

I am so happy for you that you found the problem and were able to deal with it. Such a beautiful boy!


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## telavivgsd

newlie said:


> I am so happy for you that you found the problem and were able to deal with it. Such a beautiful boy!




Thank you so much Newlie!


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## Muskeg

I'm so glad you are having success with your treatment. I hope it continues to go well!


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## telavivgsd

Muskeg said:


> I'm so glad you are having success with your treatment. I hope it continues to go well!




Thank you Muskeg, I'm glad too! I hope we will continue to see improvement!


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