# The Wolf Pack Method? Anyone?



## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

So we've been talking to several different behaviorists to try and help work on some of Sasha's reactivity issues. Honestly, I just need an ally and some support to make our household work with Sasha in it . I feel a little silly but I want to find someone to help me feel more confident handling her. 

But... one of the trainers that we initially liked (met with her for about 10 minutes), had some good on paper experience (currently trains her dogs in Schutzhund, has experience with Shepherds), uses what she called "The wolf pack method." I tried to do some research on it but couldn't find anything! We have a more formal consultation with her on Sunday but I really wanted to go in with a little more info than nothing... 

Has anyone heard of this training method?? Any opinions or input??


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

here is one possible thing i found on the web (Google search for "wolf pack dog traing method")

 Wolf Pack Dog Training - Wolf Den


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

Thats about all I found too but it doesn't really explain anything. I think that's what they named their business. Ugh... I guess I may have to wait till Sunday to pick her brain...


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Any chance it's something like Jan Fennell's method?

dog behaviour, dog obedience, dog trainers, puppy training, dog rescue assistance, canine behaviour, canine obedience by Jan Fennell the Dog Listener Amichien Bonding


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

I'm not sure...  She really didn't give us any extra information on what exactly her method meant. For all I know, it's totally old-school behavior modification with a different name. I'm anxious to find out more about it but am a little nervous that it won't be what I'm comfortable with. We've looked up other behaviorists and have either been told they can't help us or there's no way we can afford their huge price tag. 

I've looked up some of the "Colorado trainer" threads on here and looked up the recommended trainers but they all want somewhere between $500-$800 for a certain time commitment. Not that it's not worth it but we're having to juggle her behavioral issues and her health issues and financially we can't do it all. Is that the typical price range for good behaviorists?? Or does anyone have any more reasonable but still good recommendations in Colorado?? Even someone who could work with us on payment plans or something like that?


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Have you read about B.A.T. Behavioral Adjustment Training? http://functionalrewards.com/BAT-basics.pdf Of course with serious issues nothing replaces a good trainer, but until you find one there are lots of exercises you can do yourself. I have had to deal with reactivity issues with my 2 older dogs from a lack of socialization. I have read Jan Fennells book, it is deffinately a good read. There are a lot of other good books. 
The only one that can really build confidence in yourself is you. Believe in yourself.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Can't comment on CO but in GA most advertise that way. We went through 2 trainers/behaviorist that charged for a set time, not a lot was accomplished. We are on the 3rd, and I wish we had found her at the beginning. She goes by a flat hourly fee for sessions and all the email and phone support I could hope for. We are moving forward, instead of training symptomatically, we have gotten to the root of it and training up from there (does that make sense?) 

I can also say it isn't inexpensive, but considering the alternative.... we just have to work with it.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

There's a lot of good information here- Can We Help You Keep Your Pet? Other Animals


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

kiya said:


> Have you read about B.A.T. Behavioral Adjustment Training? http://functionalrewards.com/BAT-basics.pdf Of course with serious issues nothing replaces a good trainer, but until you find one there are lots of exercises you can do yourself. I have had to deal with reactivity issues with my 2 older dogs from a lack of socialization. I have read Jan Fennells book, it is deffinately a good read. There are a lot of other good books.
> The only one that can really build confidence in yourself is you. Believe in yourself.


Thank you! We have been doing some semblance of BAT and while it's working somewhat, we haven't been able to invest the time I know she needs from us. Hopefully it will get better once our life settles down a bit and we get on a schedule within the next 2 weeks or so. I will take a look at the book as well! I'm always up for another book  I've been reading Patricia McConnell's books again but would love a little more specific help with what we're dealing with. Thank you for the suggestion! 
Twyla: That's what we're looking for too. I know how to manage the symptoms but I really want to be able to get to the root of what's going on in her behaviors. I feel like we're basically just having to clean up the issues and I really want to be able to work with Sasha on how to prevent the issues.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

So we went and met with this lady today and while I wasn't completely blown away by her knowledge and ability, I figured we'd give her another try and have an actual lesson next Sunday. Hopefully it goes well and we get some new information. Her main "tips" that she wants to help us work on were...

(1) Establishing tighter rules in our house, and essentially establishing more "dominance" between us and the dogs, Sasha in particular since she seems to be the cause of most of the problems. This terminology worried me a bit but we'll play it out one more week.
(2) Always work the two girls together. Walk them together, etc. and then crate them when we can't focus 100% on them. If they are out together in the house, Sasha will be muzzled. Her theory is that even if she attacks Scarlett with the muzzle on, she'll learn that biting doesn't get her anywhere and stop the attack. This was kind of a red flag for me as I've never heard that reasoning in all my years of training. Does this ring true for anyone else??
(3) Quickly correct and redirect when Sasha spazes out on people or dogs. This also was a bit off in my mind because I really believe her barking at people is totally fear based and I wasn't sure you were supposed to correct (with a pop on the prong) a fear response? Again, I'm not really an expert so I'm gonna stick with it for at least one more session. 

Any thoughts? Sound decent or should we stay away? I'm on the fence right now which is why I thought one more week couldn't hurt. We'll be there the whole time and I have no problem speaking up if I don't agree with something.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I am no expert on dog training but I think that some of what the lady is suggesting is a little off base, in particular the work together thing. If she is has having problems with a packmate working them together more will not necessarily solve the problem but make it worse. Where in CO are you for there are more dog trainers that what have been posted but they may be out of your price range it sounds like.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

If you honestly believe your dog is reactive please don't start using compulsion, it can do more harm than good. 

Look into this group on Yahoo, you'll find a lot of good resources and information. 

shy-k9s : shy-k9s


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

sashadog said:


> So we went and met with this lady today and while I wasn't completely blown away by her knowledge and ability, I figured we'd give her another try and have an actual lesson next Sunday. Hopefully it goes well and we get some new information. Her main "tips" that she wants to help us work on were... You don't sound confident in her ability. I would say follow your instincts.
> 
> (1) Establishing tighter rules in our house, and essentially establishing more "dominance" between us and the dogs, Sasha in particular since she seems to be the cause of most of the problems. This terminology worried me a bit but we'll play it out one more week. It isn't about dominance, it's about leadership. With Woolf, we have to do NILIF in spades, micromanage him, but it isn't done to dominate but to lead him to making the right decisions.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely not an expert, so can just go by what we have done and do with Woolf. This trainer reminds me of one we interviewed right before we found Chris. Woolf is fear based DA, his answer was to take Woolf to the dog park and step on his leash and pet other dogs.... in other words a dog fight and law suit waiting to happen. When we began to question him he stated he wasn't going to share all his secrets. We ran the other way.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> I am no expert on dog training but I think that some of what the lady is suggesting is a little off base, in particular the work together thing. If she is has having problems with a packmate working them together more will not necessarily solve the problem but make it worse. Where in CO are you for there are more dog trainers that what have been posted but they may be out of your price range it sounds like.


We're up in Fort Collins. The other trainer I've actually talked to is at the Canine Learning Center up here and she didn't feel she would be able to help us and referred us to a behaviorist at CSU. She sounded somewhat promising but asks nearly $500 for a couple week commitment and if we had that money it would need to go to getting her leg amputated. Do you happen to know of any others near us? We are willing to travel as far as the Springs if we need to!! We just can't pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars up front.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

I don't know there prices but they are up your way near Erie and they are Two Bears dog training. They might be an option.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dog Sense - John Bradshaw


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

szariksdad said:


> I don't know there prices but they are up your way near Erie and they are Two Bears dog training. They might be an option.





carmspack said:


> Dog Sense - John Bradshaw


Thank you! Two Bears has a message from me, waiting for a call back and Dog Sense is ordered from Amazon! Both look helpful


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

What issues are you having between the 2 girls - serious fights as in trips to the vet or occasional not-that-serious fights?

And with people, is there anyone other than in the household that she doesn't react like that with? I definitely wouldn't leash correct here for that! You can use the prong to keep control over her though...as in getting her into to position and moving on or whatever.


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## sashadog (Sep 2, 2011)

GregK said:


> What issues are you having between the 2 girls - serious fights as in trips to the vet or occasional not-that-serious fights?
> 
> And with people, is there anyone other than in the household that she doesn't react like that with? I definitely wouldn't leash correct here for that! You can use the prong to keep control over her though...as in getting her into to position and moving on or whatever.


Sasha sends my other female, Scarlett, to the vet. We've spent over $1000 on fight bills and while I blame myself for allowing it to happen in the first place, I'm not interested in "working through it" with them. (Plus Scarlett is so nervous around Sasha now, I don't want to put her through that.) We essentially just need Sasha to be more responsive to us in relation to other dogs, Scarlett included. I don't think they are out to kill each other or the fights would've been much bloodier but I don't doubt that it could escalate to that point if we didn't keep them separated. 

And I don't know that I completely understand your human question? She loves my boyfriend and myself as well as our family members but everyone else is under immediate suspicion. Other dogs are a definite no-go as well, with the exception of my bf's parents Golden. He's her buddy but they've known each other for a while now, he might as well be ours.


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