# Your thoughts on this breeder/dogs/pup? Urgent!



## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Alright I'm hoping this is my last stop. Both parents look great with really good pedigrees as far as i can tell. They wanted 1,800 but i asked if they would be willing to part with 1,500 and they said okay. Im going to the kennel in a couple hours.

Here is the link:

German Shepherds Beverly Hills German Shepherd Puppies For Sale Los Angeles

Edit: Also, i forgot to ask, what is a plush coat? Is it like a long coat? Or is it like a rich full coat?

The puppy is Maximus and he is 7 weeks old.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Any breeder with George Foreman on the website is A-Ok with me.


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## IllinoisGSD (Sep 21, 2011)

You can't get your dog OFA'ed until 2yrs but their health guarantee expires before then. I'd say this is a red flag.

Taken from the health guarantee:

If this dog develops crippling hip dysplasia at anytime from purchase to one year of age (confirmed by x-rays from a competent licensed Veterinarian), the dog should be returned to us at the expense of the Buyer. We will replace the dog (due to crippling dysplasia) as soon as possible with a replacement of equal value to the dog at the time of original purchase. We reserve the right to request that the x-rays be sent first for review to a board-certified Veterinary Radiologist or other Veterinarian of our choice. Should the Buyer prefer to retain the said dog, the Buyer thereby forfeits any replacement, unless other arrangements are mutually agreed upon. This guarantee is null and void if Penn-Hip procedure has been used at any time during life of dog. No further guarantee is made.


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## 4TheDawgies (Apr 2, 2011)

You can get a dogs prelims after 12 months maybe thats what they mean.... 

A dog would be showing dysplasia at 12 months


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

If I remember correctly you have been researching for about a year and already recieved a lot of advice from your pevious thread. 
At some point you have to bite the bullet and take a chance as their are no absolute guarantees. 

I'm getting a pup soon and what I did was pick the breeder. The breeder is picking the puppy based on my information. I asked others with knowledge about the pedigree and bloodlines. Everyone does it differently.

My only question is will you be able to walk away from that really cute puppy? What would make you walk away?

Good Luck. Have fun looking at their dogs and puppies.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

You can actually get OFA prelims done after 4 months.

I haven't read the whole contract yet, but I found this different:
" This guarantee is null and void if Penn-Hip procedure has been used at any time during life of dog. No further guarantee is made. "


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## N Smith (Aug 25, 2011)

Definitely not a breeder I would choose, so in deciding if you should get this pup, my first question is, what are you getting this pup for?

ie: companion, sport, show?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Aralez said:


> Alright I'm hoping this is my last stop. Both parents look great with really good pedigrees as far as i can tell. They wanted 1,800 but i asked if they would be willing to part with 1,500 and they said okay. Im going to the kennel in a couple hours.
> 
> Here is the link:
> 
> ...


Plush coat is the coat that German Show breeders go for. It is alittle longer than a normal stock coat, but not as long as a long stock coat...

As for the guarantees... Does seem kinda early to expire. I would feel safer with a 2 year health guarantee, however you can get prelims done by 12 months. Overall seems like a decent breeder, but I just very breifly scanned their page.

Go meet them in person. If you feel comfortable than go with your instincts... This is your puppy and you have to decide if this is whats right for you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

That is true about the health guaranty, it is not worth the parchment. Define crippling hip dysplasia -- that doesn't mean the dog is certified dysplastic, it means the dog cannot walk. And then you have to return it for a replacement. 

However, health guaranties are a racket anyways. People here offer them because it is expected. I think they really do not matter much. Dog and Bitch have nice show line pedigrees. 

They have three litters they are currently advertising -- nothing to be concerned about but to notice. They also sell Rottweilers. I wonder how many Rotty litters are on the ground. Again, having two breeds is not the end of the world, but something to take note of. 

I plugged on the links that must be read for the guaranty to be valid. Hope you are into reading, a LOT. 

I personally think the puppy is worth $1,500. Unless there is something gruesome when you visit the kennel, I think you will probably be happy with the puppy. Both sire and dam have some ticking though. 

There is no such thing as a plush coat. Dogs either have a stock coat, a long coat with an undercoat, or a long coat without an undercoat. But many people refer to a stock coat that is very full to be plush. The long coat (which is not plush) will be longer under the belly, and will have feathering all in the and around the ears. A plush coat when they are full grown will have a bushy tail, feathering down the front legs, and a nice full mane (if the dog is not neutered early), but will not have long hair around the ears, and the overall length will not be like a long coat. Most of your German show line males would be considered plush.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Not even having looked at the web site I would be concerned that they will sell and part with a pup at 7 weeks and that they are excepting less then advertised price. Yes, there would be circumstances where the breeder might want to place a pup with a certain person such as a known handler.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> If I remember correctly you have been researching for about a year and already recieved a lot of advice from your pevious thread.
> At some point you have to bite the bullet and take a chance as their are no absolute guarantees.
> 
> I'm getting a pup soon and what I did was pick the breeder. The breeder is picking the puppy based on my information. I asked others with knowledge about the pedigree and bloodlines. Everyone does it differently.
> ...



Yeah i agree but i just value what you guys have to say. Does everything check out fine? Has anyone had any experience with them?

Where did you guys find the Health Agreement??

The puppy is a "Plush Coat"....what is that?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Aralez said:


> Yeah i agree but i just value what you guys have to say. Does everything check out fine? Has anyone had any experience with them?
> 
> Where did you guys find the Health Agreement??
> 
> The puppy is a "Plush Coat"....what is that?


Yeah, they are saying the puppy will have that slightly longer coat like Selzer describes. The coat is pretty common on WGSL dogs. Very pretty and full coat...

The health guarantee is alittle weak, but its better than nothing...

Overall seems to be an okay breeder... Really you need to go see them in person. All this is a bunch of guessing based on a website. Go see with your own two eyes. You then will be in a much better position to make that call than we will...

Just keep your wits about you, and don't get sucked in by cute puppy eyes.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Woops i went afk and came back and finished up my last post. I hadnt seen that there were already answers to some of my questions like Selzars.

Change of plans, im going to go see them tomorrow. If anyone has anything they'd like to add please do so.

And i still cant find the Health Agreement :/ where did you guys find it?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Aralez said:


> And i still cant find the Health Agreement :/ where did you guys find it?


At the top of the page where it says "Click here for puppy health guarantee" HERE is blue. Click it and your computer will download a Word file. Right next to it it says something about how the guarantee only goes into effect after you read the Leerburg site and Wolfcreekranch.net.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Click HERE for our puppy health Guarantee. Guarantee is only valid after reading 
wolfcreekranch.net and www.Leerburg.com


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Omg lol im blind. Thanks!!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I gotta say that Wolf Creek Ranch site is a bunch of hooey. Especially this paragraph:

"Ever notice the wild animals are NOT extinct? Coyotes, foxes, wolves, bobcats, mountain lions, deer, bear, etc. are thriving. Why is it they aren't all dying from heartworm, west nile virus, parvo, distemper, kennel cough, lyme disease, lepto, worms, blood sucking insects like fleas, mites, ticks, cancers, and ALL the diseases we are vaccinating and chemically treating OUR pets for?"


I don't know much about wolves and foxes, but coyotes don't live more than 5 or 6 years and every coyote I've ever killed or ever seen killed was eaten up with fleas, ticks, worms, and heart worms.

Animals don't need to live into old age for the species to survive. They just need to live to replace themselves. It's actually harmful to the species for coyotes, foxes, wolves, bears, etc to live past their fertile years. They tend to die young. We want our pets to live longer than that. This idea that coyotes and wolves don't get fleas or heartworms because they eat a "species appropriate diet" is laughable.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

Emoore said:


> Right next to it it says something about how the guarantee only goes into effect after you read the Leerburg site and Wolfcreekranch.net.


My eyes had skimmed right over the fact you had to read those websites, that's weird too.

Personally I'd pass on this breeder as well, but :shrug: that's just me


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The health guaranty is right on the web-page in the middle, there is a link, just above the write up on your puppy. If they will give you no guaranty because they are giving you a break on the price, that's fine, the guaranty does not guaranty much anyway. And check out your state laws, if you take the dog to the vet within so many days of the purchase, lots of places require that they replace the puppy if there is something seriously wrong.

No, you cannot check hips. But hips, snips, yeah it sucks if your dog has bad hips, but I doubt that they will be so bad that it will be crippling by a year, from two a-stamped dogs, with a-stamps all the way back. It would be rare. Might the dog not pass ofa? yes, but that is not what is being guaranteed here. Most breeders do NOT guaranty that a dog gets ofa-certified. And many dogs can have mild or even chronic hip dysplasia and never show symptoms. I wouldn't use that to stop me from buying the puppy if all other things are in order. 

The big problem with health guaranties in general is that they require that you return the dog. By the time a problem is apparent, lots of people do not want to return the dog, especially if they know that the breeder has no use for a dog with hip dysplasia and they will probably euthanize the dog. So people are reluctant to use the guaranty as they do not want to give up the dog for that. So it really isn't worth the parchment, but it is expected. 

A better guaranty would be 24 months after the purchase date; return the puppy or provide a copy of the statement from the vet for the spay/neuter surgery; diagnosis of hip dysplasia from an organization such as the OFA. And hip and elbows should be guarantied, perhaps any genetic condition. 

You need to get this pup to your vet within 48 hours, so you will need to get him in on Saturday, unless you get that changed. I would go for Monday at least if I were you. You may have trouble getting into a vet by Saturday. I give my people two weeks to return a puppy, and strongly suggest they take the puppy to the vet in that time, and to take the health certificate provided with them, so the vet knows what the pup has been vaccinated for already.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Insane. Skip them.
Just the fact they can't run the word HANSOM (handsome) through a spell check is enough to deter me from their site. 
Even rescues who can't use spell check turn me off, sorry, I am anal that way, but misspelled words all over = unprofessional!

Shoot me now :shrug:

PS - why do you have to read LEERBURG to "activate" the health guarantee??


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My guess is they were trying to tag a page of that leerburg site maybe on what/how to exercise a puppy, like they did with the other site about RAW feeding. Some breeders believe that environment plays a big role in the development of hip dysplasia. 

Because I trust Robin, I would have went with the dog she recommended hands down. But the OP has not been here very long, and has to trust what he sees. I would be a lot more anal about mispellings in Shepherd, Bred, Spay, Spayed, Neuter, and a few other words commonly mutilated when it comes to dogs than handsome. 

I agree though, why offer to come down on the price for a seven week old puppy? That is odd.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well the fact they can't explain themselves but rely on another website to "validate" the health guarantee, which isn't much, btw, would deter me. 

I realize the OP is new here but there's red flags on all the sites they've posted so far and they haven't found one without a boku of those red flags...isn't there a page here or thread about what to look for in a good breeder?



> With a temperament like his he will be the best champion German Shepherd you've ever had.


Huh?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pup didn't seem to have much vim and vigour


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I couldn't find how to get to the pedigrees on any of the pups it just kept saying click picture for pedigree. And whose pedigree would it be anyway, the grandfather's? Not overly helpful or useful.

This statement was funny, and meaningless:

This is Vegas, he's a real show winner. He likes to play 
and have fun and he's especially easy to train as he 
loves to listen to his master. With a temperament like 
his he will be the best champion German Shepherd 
you've ever had.

It's a puppy, how could he be a show winner already? And how do they know he will be a champion, much less the best one someone's ever had? hahahaha

Also what are "Mega Champion" parents?

The health guarantee was basically one-sided crap. All I kept seeing was "at the Buyer's expense". I can't even list how much is wrong with that contract.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Thanks for confirming what I was seeing...poorly worded "this'll be the best dog ever"...etc...red flags all over.

The the OP, why not just rescue a nice dog or puppy? You'll be getting the same crap shoot and sometimes even a better dog, for WAY less than $1500!

Gosh we have a purebred litter, one of which I'd be glad to give you for $1000 ($500 less!!) with no pedigree and a free month of health insurance!! We'll even spay her for ya


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

One of two things is going to happen here, possibly both.

1) The OP will buy a dog from this breeder, against all advice.

2) The breeder will hear about this thread, create an account, and start yelling.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Ah well...such is life...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you click on the photos of the sire and dam it will take you to the pedigree database for the dogs. This is a German Show line puppy, and has nice lines. Slaughtering the people for their website is usually not a good idea. If you buy a puppy from Germany and import it, you will not get any health guaranty. 

I do not trust the breeder, I do not have any reason to. A snappy website without a type-o, does not guaranty a good breeder either. Ya have to go and check them out. Know where the flags are, and ask questions when you are there. 

And hopefully, if anyone on the site has a good or bad experience with the people they will PM you. Tearing apart the website kind of borders on breeder bashing. The website is the window to the world, and breeders should do their best with it. 

Positives -- sire and dam information and pedigrees are viewable, including a-stamps and titles, etc. 

Sometimes I do not know what the people on here want. There are things that provoke questions, but nothing I would totally turn them down for.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

The only issue I have with this breeder is that their health guarantee requires you to listen to some people telling you that coyotes don't get fleas or heart worms because they eat a species-appropriate diet.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Emoore said:


> The only issue I have with this breeder is that their health guarantee requires you to listen to some people telling you that coyotes don't get fleas or heart worms because they eat a species-appropriate diet.


At least their warranty does not require you to feed RAW, or to feed Kumpi or to feed TOTW or to feed Orijen. I have seen some health warranties that required specific food and supplements. 

It just says you must first read these. Which is ridiculous. If they sign the contract and the breeder signs the contract, the contract does not say you must read those sites, it is a contract -- and not like it is going to do much for you anyway. So it was just something silly -- they want you to read them because that is what they are pushing. Whatever. 

We can pick out any website on the internet and sit here and critique until the rooster crows next Friday and never find any that suits all of us. 

The sire and dam are Koer'd, titled, show-rated, endurance tested, hip and elbow tested, and look like very nice dogs from their pictures. 

At the end of the day, what is important, really? What is produced. I think that out of the stock they are breeding, they can produce some nice pups. What is needed now, is to go there and see the dam and possibly the sire. See the puppy. See if the people look like decent people, that know something about the breed.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I think it is perfectly acceptable to take issue with statements on a website. If the breeder's website is basic and one or two pages, but is forthright, doesn't make claims that possibly can't be met, then great. But by putting your site and program on the web for the world to see, then you should probably expect questions or concerns will be expressed. I regularly see new people sign up when they've got a new pup and have concerns or a health issue or whatever. Then everyone basically tells them they should have done their research. So here is one doing her research (YAY) and getting opinions, from people who are looking at the right things, pedigrees, or health certs, or titles, whatever. If the OP decides to get a pup from one of the places she's listed, and then has issues then ok, she made the choice. So should we be all sunshine and rainbows and just point out that the site is a nice color and the pictures are very pretty? I don't know how we would help steer a new person to the helping them make best choice for them if we don't give an opinion on the only thing we can see, the website.
Oh, and the links to the parent's pedigrees only work on the first pup. I was trying to look at the pedigrees for Vegas and Xena. Now I know I can just go to pdb and type in the pedigree search to find them, but the OP, or the average buyer may not have that information, so it would be nice to get the pedigrees to actually work.
Personally, I kind of like the Xena pup from the video, but couldn't get the pedigrees to work.


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

I saw nothing in the video that would make me think the pup has superb potential for schutzhund. Looks like a a nice enough pet puppy, tho not particularly energetic. They are asking rather a lot of $$ for that puppy, IMO!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They state on there that Dysplasia is "arthritis of the hip". 
Is that true...?? Or their explanation of it?


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Emoore said:


> The only issue I have with this breeder is that their health guarantee requires you to listen to some people telling you that coyotes don't get fleas or heart worms because they eat a species-appropriate diet.


Some people believe some nutty stuff. Doesn't mean they are poor breeders though. How many people here buy into homeopathy or think Vitamin C and Probiotics cures everything even though there is not a shred of repeatable verifiable evidence supporting the practice... 

I'm with Selzer here... Basing ones opinion purely on the website, or even giving out strongly worded advice about them borders on breeder bashing.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Hip Dysplasia is nothing more than Canine arthritis that can sometimes occur early in life.


This is a statement from their site. Is this accurate??


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> They state on there that Dysplasia is "arthritis of the hip".
> Is that true...?? Or their explanation of it?


Hip Dysplasia is malformation of the hip socket that leads to osteoarthritis. So yes it is arthritis of the hip, but saying it like that is a simplification


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

The OP's original thread stated that he/she wanted a WGSL for a family companion. Not for competition or show.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A number of things look like red flags to me but we all know how a webpage can be torn apart even if the dogs are good 

BUT... if they are willing to let you walk out the door with a 7 week puppy that is a big one. 

The puppy video though. Something just does not look right to me about the puppy.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

DunRingill said:


> I saw nothing in the video that would make me think the pup has superb potential for schutzhund. Looks like a a nice enough pet puppy, tho not particularly energetic. They are asking rather a lot of $$ for that puppy, IMO!


That is the going rate for a well-bred German Showline puppy. In fact, it can be a little low. When people are charging less for a GSL with all the ducks in a row, and a good pedigree behind it, it tends to make you question why. 

Both the sire and the dam have schutzhund titles. I see no reason why the pup cannot make it through schutzhund too. 

At some point, we have to stand back and say, ok, check them out -- go and see them. 

Another question I would have is, is this pup a singleton -- if it is ok, not a show stopper. If it is not, are the other puppies still there? Have they been sold already? Are they gone already? When do you let puppies go to their new home? If they are letting puppies go at seven weeks, it probably wouldn't make me hit a crashing halt, but if they are homing pups earlier than that, well, I dunno. 

I think you have to add crap up in your head, and if there are many things on the hairy edge, you shake your head no. 

I see nothing that would be a show stopper yet. But I see a few things that I would ask about.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

7 weeks if he can cough up $1500...today...and yeh puppy looks dull...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Note to self, NEVER EVER post a u-tube of a puppy. 

Puppies look all kinds of ways at seven weeks. They can be tearing into a plastic bottle like there is no tomorrow and seconds later be sound asleep. Saying a puppy looks dull -- what is that? 

I disagree. If you go there and play with the puppy and see the puppy, and it looks off or tired or dull, don't buy it. But not everyone spends the entire sixth week with a camera trying to take the best u-tube of a puppy. They probably went out there and did a quick photo shoot to give you an idea of how the dog walks, etc. 

Remember that we haven't the first idea of the experience the OP has. If this dog is like a czech border patrol puppy, k9 capable, the OP could be over his ears in it. For that 1 minute the pup did not look like your next schutzhund competitor. That's good, that is not what the OP wants.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the puppy looked frail 
there was goo in the eyes

there was just an aura of resignation on the dog 

when there are claims that the dog could be the best show dog or superb schutzhund dog then they have to show something that backs up those expectations, which hopefully means that they have some experience and know what a prospective buyer wanting either or both of those things would be looking for and then you showcase it .



Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

selzer said:


> *snip*
> 
> At some point, we have to stand back and say, ok, check them out -- go and see them.
> 
> *snip*


Agreed. 20 pages of webpage critique isn't worth 10 minutes actually seeing the breeder in person or even just talking with them on the phone. It seems alittle harsh for some here to be critiquing these pups so severely off short video clips. It would be one thing to make such a critique after evaluating and interacting with the pup in person...


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

selzer said:


> For that 1 minute the pup did not look like your next schutzhund competitor. That's good, that is not what the OP wants.


Then they shouldn't claim that he has "superb potential" for schutzhund. Those are THEIR words, from the beginning of the video.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And seven weeks. Yes, we like to require eight weeks. In many states 8 weeks is the law. There are reasons why seven weeks would be ok though, even if you want 8 weeks. If the pup is a singleton and is totally weaned -- it can go home at seven weeks and get more individual attention than it will get in a kennel. In fact, it would probably better for it to go to its new home. 

They used to home dogs at six weeks regularly. I got Arwen at just under six weeks -- too young, yes. But she was a great dog, good with dogs, good with people, I titled her in two different sports, she took her CGC without taking classes for it. She was just fine. I NEVER had to teach her bite-inhibition. She never bit anyone, not even as a puppy. 

But a lot of people think 49 days is the best time for a puppy to go to its new home. I do not think seven weeks is too young. 4 weeks definitely, 5 weeks, yeah. six weeks is still too young. Seven weeks -- it should not cause any problems.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

The OP had some urgency to the post saying that they were ready to jump into the car and go visit the kennel . 
These posts give them something to think about. They also said , they hope it is the last stop , which leads me to think that they have been looking and haven't found something yet . 
Look at Robin's dogs . 

Carmen


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## DunRingill (Dec 28, 2007)

BR870 said:


> It seems alittle harsh for some here to be critiquing these pups so severely off short video clips. It would be one thing to make such a critique after evaluating and interacting with the pup in person...


The OP asked for "thoughts on this breeder." The statements published in the opening of the video make me think that the breeder doesn't have the experience to be making those claims. Might be a perfectly nice pet puppy, but that wasn't really the question.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> The OP had some urgency to the post saying that they were ready to jump into the car and go visit the kennel .
> These posts give them something to think about. They also said , they hope it is the last stop , which leads me to think that they have been looking and haven't found something yet .
> Look at Robin's dogs .
> 
> Carmen



Robin doesn't have anything available. He spoke to Robin's friend, but does not want to pay the price plus the shipping. You have to remember that WE know Robin, at least for however long we have both posted on this site. This guy is a newbie and has no reason to trust Robin.

I said I would trust Robin's recommendation. I said I would be all over that pup. But he doesn't know me or you either. 

So, he is going elsewhere. I do not think that we should be a broken record because we KNOW what he SHOULD do in OUR opinion. 

I do not see "an aura of defeat" I see a puppy. 

If he goes there and it is a puppy factory, then he can turn away. If the puppy looks sick, he can say no. If he asks pointed questions, and their answers do not make him happy, he can walk away. 

I think he should make up a list of questions to ask. He should look at the dogs, look at the pup. Look at the other puppies and their dams, and possibly sires. And then make a decision, yay or nay. 

This is breeder bashing. No breeder will ever make you guys happy. You will not be happy unless he buys Robin's friends dog. And then, he may not be happy. And not because the puppy is no good, but because he felt pressured into it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I was where this person was 5 years ago except I wanted a working line dog.

A lot of websites are full of you know what. A lot of them could be written by one person, so many of them say almost identical things. 

Great dogs, they are family to us. 

They hang out sleep and eat with our children and grandchildren. Socialized to people, horses, dogs,etc.. They have been around trains, planes and autos, have been senstized to gun shots, drone strikes etc... Will make great anything you want them to be.

Then people on the forum tell them to go see them. See the parents, handle the dogs.

When I was looking I was at least 100 miles from the neares working line breeder that I could find. 

I could have spent more in gas and hotel bills trying to see touch and feel every litter I might be interested in. 

The Op doesn't know Robin. How is he supposed to go see her dogs if he lives in Calif. If I were into show lines I would be happy to get a dog from Robin. She is very respected. The OP however is brand new. 

So what should they do to find a good show line breeder in Calif..


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

BR870 said:


> Some people believe some nutty stuff. Doesn't mean they are poor breeders though. How many people here buy into homeopathy or think Vitamin C and Probiotics cures everything even though there is not a shred of repeatable verifiable evidence supporting the practice...
> 
> I'm with Selzer here... Basing ones opinion purely on the website, or even giving out strongly worded advice about them borders on breeder bashing.


Eh, the thing about coyotes and wolves not getting fleas, ticks, or heart worms is a lie. It's not stretching the truth, it's not something that's debatable, it's not something that we don't have enough evidence to support. . . . it's an out-and-out-lie to sell products. 

Maybe the breeder is misguided, they probably believe they are doing a good thing by sending buyers there. I don't think they're a bad breeder, probably just misguided as far as the holistic thing goes. I hope they're still giving their dogs heart worm prevention. But that other website is flat-out lying.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

Barb E said:


> My eyes had skimmed right over the fact you had to read those websites, that's weird too.
> 
> Personally I'd pass on this breeder as well, but :shrug: that's just me


A soon as I saw the part about having to read those 2 sites, that right there was enough for me to know that this is NOT someone I would do business with. I didn't even have to read the sites. I know all about Frawley and his beliefs, I can just imagine what the other site says.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

selzer said:


> If you click on the photos of the sire and dam it will take you to the pedigree database for the dogs. This is a German Show line puppy, and has nice lines. Slaughtering the people for their website is usually not a good idea. If you buy a puppy from Germany and import it, you will not get any health guaranty.
> 
> I do not trust the breeder, I do not have any reason to. A snappy website without a type-o, does not guaranty a good breeder either. Ya have to go and check them out. Know where the flags are, and ask questions when you are there.
> 
> ...



Thank you Selzar. You are speaking for me. Everything you have said in every post you have made in this thread is exactly what i wanted to say. You are being very human and understanding and not jumping the gun to bash the breeder on such little things. I think im more concerned on how healthy the puppy is based on the pedigree and how capable of agility work/protection/tracking the puppy is based on the titles in the pedigree (not that i plan to do ScHH or show), instead of little things like a type-o. I dont care if they know how to spell i care about getting a good pup. The type-os are a bit of a turn-off for me too, i'll admit. But its no where near an expression close to "Insane. Run from them. There is a type-o." lol...

I did ask for each one of your individual opinions and even though i don't agree with some i still really appreciate it because having a diverse pool of opinions is generally much more helpful rather than all one-sided biased opinions. Thanks for everyones input. Im going to go see them tomorrow. If you guys still have things to say, keep 'em coming.

Selzar, im sending you a PM.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

8 weeks IS the law in California!!!


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> 8 weeks IS the law in California!!!


Thats a concern then. Ill be adding that to my list of questions. Maybe its a couple days shy of 8 weeks?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BlackGSD said:


> A soon as I saw the part about having to read those 2 sites, that right there was enough for me to know that this is NOT someone I would do business with. I didn't even have to read the sites. I know all about Frawley and his beliefs, I can just imagine what the other site says.


This is the part that made me think..."insanel" and that they say dysplasia is nothing more than "arthritis".
Typos are a turn off period.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Aralez said:


> Thats a concern then. Ill be adding that to my list of questions. Maybe its a couple days shy of 8 weeks?



I don't know if your opposed to a much older puppy or not but a poster found a pair of young German Shepherds and had to turn them into Riverside Animal Control, they are a male and female and gorgeous, they look to have nice pigment , black/Red color and look to be nice quality puppies, you may check the shelter and put an application in to rescue one for a fraction of the price, since you don't plan to show or compete papers shouldn't matter and you'll be saving a life. I would say based on looks they are WGSL puppies.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Emoore said:


> The only issue I have with this breeder is that their health guarantee requires you to listen to some people telling you that coyotes don't get fleas or heart worms because they eat a species-appropriate diet.


Well i dont know much about what the website says but i read that one bit that you posted. It doesnt say they DONT get them. It says they dont DIE from them. Well i dont know much about wild animals but something tells me they probably dont die from them. I could be wrong though.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

LARHAGE said:


> I don't know if your opposed to a much older puppy or not but a poster found a pair of young German Shepherds and had to turn them into Riverside Animal Control, they are a male and female and gorgeous, they look to have nice pigment , black/Red color and look to be nice quality puppies, you may check the shelter and put an application in to rescue one for a fraction of the price, since you don't plan to show or compete papers shouldn't matter and you'll be saving a life. I would say based on looks they are WGSL puppies.


How old are the pups? Ill check them out, thanks!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

great idea .
check out the pups at Riverside Animal Control.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Here is the female's listing: PetHarbor.com: Animal Shelter adopt a pet; dogs, cats, puppies, kittens! Humane Society, SPCA. Lost & Found.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

BowWowMeow said:


> Here is the female's listing: PetHarbor.com: Animal Shelter adopt a pet; dogs, cats, puppies, kittens! Humane Society, SPCA. Lost & Found.


GORGEOUS!! 
And just think...you'd be supporting a great cause if you adopt from them  Winning!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Aralez said:


> Well i dont know much about what the website says but i read that one bit that you posted. It doesnt say they DONT get them. It says they dont DIE from them. Well i dont know much about wild animals but something tells me they probably dont die from them. I could be wrong though.


I don't know why they wouldn't. The claim they're resistant is rather bizarre.

wolfbehavior :: All you need to know about Wolves

_Heartworm: Mosquitoes are the major vector of dog heartworm, Dirofilaris immitis. Once the worms end up in a canine, they will mature and grow on the right side of the animal's heart and on its pulmonary arteries. Initial symptoms include detectable heart murmurs and pulse deficits. As the problem progresses, the animal's heart may become enlarged and if the the infection becomes severe (up to 200 worms have been found in some animals), blood flow will be blocked. Heart failure may result from a major infection. 
*Heartworm is thought to be one of the major causes of the red wolf decline that occurred in the southeastern United States during this century. *Heartworm has been found in in free ranging wolves in Minnesota, and it has also occurred in captive wolf populations in the southern United States. It has not been reported in Canada or Alaska, as the mosquitoes that carry it prefer warmer climates. 
There are medications that can be administered to dogs and captive wolves that can prevent the disease, and it is recommended that all dogs and captive wolves living in areas where heartworm occurs be on the preventative medication._


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> GORGEOUS!!
> And just think...you'd be supporting a great cause if you adopt from them  Winning!


Only thing im concerned about is what do i know about this pup? Do they give me a pedigree? How do i know if i would spend thousands on it or not. Maybe it doesnt have good genetics and may develop illnesses that cost me a lot of money later in its life? How do i know?


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Either way im going to be in the Riverside area, so ill drop by the shelter and clear up these questions.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Aralez said:


> Only thing im concerned about is what do i know about this pup? Do they give me a pedigree? How do i know if i would spend thousands on it or not. Maybe it doesnt have good genetics and may develop illnesses that cost me a lot of money later in its life? How do i know?


You would have the same concerns with a puppy and puppy from the best of breedings. I just got a puppy but know there is a gamble because there always is. The Europeans know that and usually dont even warrany a dog.

FWIW. His isite is actually the first time I have heard that gluten is the cause of HD! (His site) - Don't get me wrong but I can show you one of my dogs that developed HD on a gluten free, grain free diet. It is a little more complex than that.

The ones in the pound are old enough the take to a vet and spend a few hundred on for a quck check. Money well spent. The older they get the less important knowing the pedigree becomes.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

gorgeous girl at the shelter!! You can always ask a vet to do a quick exam, and you can also request hip/elbow xraying, I would PAY for that, since it would be a good thing to know if you want to know NOW..in the long run, paying for xrays and a good exam, will be cheaper in the long run than buying a 1500 puppy and you will know more since she's a tad older..


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Yo are concerned about the health guarantees of the rescues but you haven't written this breeder of f that has so many loopholes in their guarantee to their benefit they have made it virtually impossible to use the guarantee? Makes no sense.

If you adopt you will be 1450 ahead in potential vet bills. Older dogs are much less of a gamble. Every time. And definitely more than a breeder that goes so far out of their way to make sure you will not be able to use the guarantee they are pretending they have


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Aralez,
First let me say *I do not know the breeder in this thread*...what I do know is, I have not seen them or their dogs at any GSD venue that I/we have participated in.
I will always be leery of breeders who "profess" qualities of their dogs/puppies in venues that they themselves do not participate in......"how would they know"?

Second.....they use the term "plush coat" to describe both the Maximus AND the female puppy (at the bottom of the page).....as a *breeder*, they *should know* that the female puppy is a long stock coat and Maximus is not....no such thing as a plush coat.
You have a major concern in requiring a puppy that will have rich, strong pigment......well, I should probably inform you that (based on the dog/parents themselves)....the puppies most likely will have normal black & tan/red color & pigment. _ *I only mention this because you have stated the importance of this_ _consideration*._
I have no idea if this breeder is a decent breeder or not.....so I cannot comment on anything other than what I read quickly on their site....and I do not take part in breeder bashing.

*personally......I would suggest looking into the 2 nice, older pups that were turned into rescue, that was already mentioned. Both those pups look to be (previously well cared for).....


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They are right...the guarantee is bogus from the breeder so those puppies are crap shoots. They are saying (so am I) since the almost free dog is a crap shoot too, go with the shelter dog and offer to pay for a vet exam on her or him. Why spend $1500 on a crap shoot when you can get what appears to be a very nice dog for $50?


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

The OP seems to be going round and round with breeders that have red flags popping up. I don't recall, but has anyone suggested breeders in the OP's area that they are familiar with and can be deemed reputable? That might help narrow down the search a bit if they are not interested in rescuing the gorgeous pups posted.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Lakl......I think the obstacles the OP is going to face is ...price & pigment priorities.
It is not impossible....just more difficult.
There are kazillions of breeders of GSD dogs......narrowing the search with the OP's needs, will be the challenge. I think any buyer should have exactly what they want & need, otherwise the "fit" is not correct for puppy & owner.....
I wish that I could be of more help...but I too am limited.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lakl said:


> The OP seems to be going round and round with breeders that have red flags popping up. I don't recall, but has anyone suggested breeders in the OP's area that they are familiar with and can be deemed reputable? That might help narrow down the search a bit if they are not interested in rescuing the gorgeous pups posted.


I think the problem is OP's price point... it will lead him/her round and round to "red flag" breeders. I did not go to the website in question, but the impression I get is that the breeder imports titled dogs in order to breed and sell puppies. They do not appear to be very knowledgable. Doesn't mean the dogs are bad, however. Personally, if I'm paying four figures for a puppy I'd better get a decent health/hip guarantee and the support of a knowledgable breeder. It sounds like the health guarantee is essentially worthless; in this case, I'd just as soon adopt a pup that came into rescue!


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

one thing to add .
Don't be disappointed if the dog at the shelter does not throw itself at you showering you with affection.
GSD by nature are reserved , or neutral to strangers. This particular female , just by what I see in this picture, looks like she is not entirely comfortable with her situation. The person holding the leash is not making any attempt to connect . IN THE PICTURE . So what you see is a dog that looks a little bit stressed . A dog coming from a home and the close contact you would expect , coming from a routine and being in a kennel situation is going to be stressed. See what that lighter stuff is on the bridge of her nose. Either it is the pigment of her hair , or she has some abrasion from shoving her nose under the kennel gate trying to get out .

Go and visit and give this dog a chance . 

She may be absolutely wonderful -- all it takes is someone who has the time and interest to bond with her , make her feel special . Don't be put off if she is reserved .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> Lakl......I think the obstacles the OP is going to face is ...price & pigment priorities.
> It is not impossible....just more difficult.
> There are kazillions of breeders of GSD dogs......narrowing the search with the OP's needs, will be the challenge. I think any buyer should have exactly what they want & need, otherwise the "fit" is not correct for puppy & owner.....
> I wish that I could be of more help...but I too am limited.


It seems, to me personally, that in the OP's "year" of research, that there is still a lot to be absorbed about the breed. If only they had been in my shoes during the past year, they would understand how much further down on their list of requirements the tick or stripe should be... But I guess it will always be a "live and learn" type of situation as I have done. I think with us newbies, it is not a case of "please help me find the perfect pup" in where experienced people can suggest dogs to you that would be suitable. Instead, we want to pick the pup ourselves with our limited knowledge of the breed, and have the experienced people say, "Good choice!"


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Also,the girl in the shelter has likely been in the company of the male her whole life, so will also be affected by being separated from him when they took the pics. 

Annette


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

But Lakl.....you did not pick a "bad puppy"...you picked a very nice, sweet, enjoyable puppy that just happened to have genetic issues in his health.
YOU did nothing wrong with your choice.....the problem is with the "breeders" support for you & the puppy....or lack of support...which ever one chooses to look at it.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

Lakl said:


> The OP seems to be going round and round with breeders that have red flags popping up. I don't recall, but has anyone suggested breeders in the OP's area that they are familiar with and can be deemed reputable? That might help narrow down the search a bit if they are not interested in rescuing the gorgeous pups posted.



I would recommend Lundborg Land but he doesn't want to pay the price.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Lakl said:


> If only they had been in my shoes during the past year, they would understand how much further down on their list of requirements the tick or stripe should be... But I guess it will always be a "live and learn" type of situation as I have done.


About 12 years ago, when I was looking for a puppy, I had my eye on a couple of different litters. Both were reputable breeders, both had excellent working bloodlines, and both were essentially the same price. All things seeming equal, I chose the puppy that was the color I wanted.

I made the wrong choice.  No fault of the breeder of the pup, but it just wasn't a good match... the pup was hyperactive, seemed to have ADD, and had such intense "cat drive" that I just couldn't bring myself to trust her. On top of that, she had moderate hip dysplasia. The breeder did stand by her guarantee and gave me a full refund, and I was able to place the dog in a wonderful cat-free home. 

I then bought a puppy from the other breeder, which turned out to be the perfect match for me. Live and learn.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

robinhuerta said:


> But Lakl.....you did not pick a "bad puppy"...you picked a very nice, sweet, enjoyable puppy that just happened to have genetic issues in his health.
> YOU did nothing wrong with your choice.....the problem is with the "breeders" support for you & the puppy....or lack of support...which ever one chooses to look at it.


Yes, Robin! This! I think if the OP is solidly adamant about a specific color, the safest bet would be to find a reputable breeder that they like and feel they can trust whose dog's produce the kind of temperament they are looking for. If they do no have the color...wait, or take suggestions or referrals from that breeder, but do not simply pass on color alone towards breeders that boast "reddest of the reds" or "grandest of the champions" with nothing to back it up...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I saw those puppies in the picture by the person who posted them here before calling animal control. They indeed look like GSL puppies, with nice red coloring, big ears, young, and she said they were sitting for treats, so they have been worked with some, and probably are very nice dogs. I like them. They look about a year old, so that covers the health warranty from that site anyway -- they do not have crippling hip dysplasia so you would be seriously ahead of the game. You can check their hips and elbows and the rest of it is all a gamble. 

Just because you go to a good, ethical breeder, does not mean that you will not have to spend thousands on medical care. But if you do buy the pup, and x-ray the hips from the shelter, you can put the remainder of your $1500 in the bank, as a savings account for medical emergencies the dog might have.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And you can send pictures to the AKC, and get a PAL number for the dog. And you can then compete in obedience, Rally, Agility, and so many other types of canine events. 

If you are not planning on breeding, the lack of pedigree will not matter much.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

bocron said Also,the girl in the shelter has likely been in the company of the male her whole life, so will also be affected by being separated from him when they took the pics. 

Absolutely . This would make a difference .
Having done volunteer work at shelters I have seen dogs go into depression . Dogs that would not eat . Dogs that would not urinate unless someone took them out for a walk. 

One of the requirements of this particular shelter was that the new owners come back for training . It was beautiful to see how much the dogs changed with a little care and attention.
Sometimes you wouldn't think it was the same dog.
One dog I remember was a little poodle who was adopted by a recently widowed gentleman . Perfect pair - the dog was depressed and so was the man. We recommended this little dog because it seemed no one else was looking at him . The dog wasn't responsive or animated.

One year later , what a difference. Two lives were changed. The man got out and made social connections , something usually left to the wives, so he did not have any that were his friends. Every morning I would see this man and the dog as I walked through the neighbourhood on the way to work.


This dog deserves every chance , so does her canine friend. 
Carmen


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Ive put together a list of questions that i plan to ask the breeder. Please add anything to the list that you think is worth asking. I wont be taking any money with me so that i dont end up getting the pup. I think it would be better if i go home and reflect on everything before making the decision to purchase.

Here is the list of questions im going to ask when i go in a few hours:


1.) How long have you been breeding german shepherds?


2.) What do you do with your dogs?


3.) Tell me about some of the puppies that you sold that you are proud of, what do their people say about them, what 

are their accomplishments? Can i contact them?


4.) How many pups were in the litter? Can i see them interacting together?


5.) How do you socialize your pups? Has the puppy been around children?


6.) Why are you okay with giving the pup away at 7 weeks? I thought 8 weeks is the law.


7.) Why do you require the buyer to read the 2 links you have in your website for the contract to be valid? Do you 

require me to purchase specific products from their websites to give to my dog for the contract to be valid?


8.) Why do you heavily support these websites? Are you in any way affiliated with them?


9.) Can i contact your vet?


10.) Why is the contract null and void if a Penn-hip procedure is used?


Anything you guys would like to add?

Edit: Also, some of you said that the contract seems very iffy and has a lot of loopholes. Ive seen much worse from my research and i really dont see anything wrong with this contract. Its pretty short and to the point. Mind pointing out the loopholes? The only thing that it says "To the expense of the buyer" is shipping the puppy back to them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

On #9, I do not give adopters permission to contact our vet. Our vet is our vet, we pay the bills and they would not appreciate having adopters calling them out of the blue.
I DO give our vet information if requested, once the dog is in the new home and I state it like this - "We will give your vet our vet's information if they need it for their records". 
And if there was above average procedures and information needed, I'd have a copy of the records made for them. But I certainly don't approve of adopters contacting the vet themselves. 

Maybe that's just me...and our rescue...but that's how we do it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

I would edit this one:



Aralez said:


> 2.) What do you do with your dogs?


To say, "What do you do with your breeding dogs to prove that they have proper German Shepherd temperament?"


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> I would edit this one:
> 
> 
> 
> To say, "What do you do with your breeding dogs to prove that they have proper German Shepherd temperament?"


That's good...or "what makes your dogs worthy to breed, keeping in mind breeding should only be done to better the breed?"


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Aralez said:


> Edit: Also, some of you said that the contract seems very iffy and has a lot of loopholes. Ive seen much worse from my research and i really dont see anything wrong with this contract. Its pretty short and to the point. Mind pointing out the loopholes? The only thing that it says "To the expense of the buyer" is shipping the puppy back to them.


Let's see here...if your vet happens to be a Penn Hip vet you have to go somewhere else to get their prelims done because -- watch out! Otherwise your guarantee is done and over. Something happens and you don't get your dog to the vet within 48 hours? Guarantee is done and over. You don't --what? Read every sentence on those 2 listed web sites? Your guarantee never even takes effect! How exactly are you supposed to prove that you read them to their liking?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

GSDElsa said:


> You don't --what? Read every sentence on those 2 listed web sites? Your guarantee never even takes effect! How exactly are you supposed to prove that you read them to their liking?


I was thinking "What if you read the sites and think they are full of bologna?" will that negate your guarantee? After all, they must want to accomplish something or they wouldn't have clients read them.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Aralez said:


> 10.) Why is the contract null and void if a Penn-hip procedure is used?


I am fully expecting them to say that they think the positioning of the PennHip *causes* hip dysplasia.  I have heard people say the same thing about OFA x-rays, and it's a perfect excuse. "Well of course your dog has hip dysplasia, the vet stretched out his back legs and pulled the hips out of the socket when you had him x-rayed!"

If they say that, I'd advise you run, not walk, away.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

What if you tell them you think the info in the links is hogwash? Does that null the guarantee? A guarantee, to me, simply shows that the breeder stands behind what they produce and in no way should be affiliated with whether or not the buyer has read material based from outside source. The other thing that stands out to me is the term "crippling displaysia". What if your dog is diagnosed with just hip displaysia and not "Crippling" or some other genetic disorder? I saw a guarantee/contract today that said your dog will at least OFA Fair or you would have the option for a replacement puppy, and if you chose to keep your puppy, you would have to provide proof of spay/neuter, but still be able to get a replacement. Who wants to send a pup back that they have loved and cared for for a year or two years?


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

Dainerra said:


> I was thinking "What if you read the sites and think they are full of bologna?" will that negate your guarantee? After all, they must want to accomplish something or they wouldn't have clients read them.


Sorry! Repeat! Missed this post!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dogs can be proved breed worthy when they are sold to the breeder. I want to know what the breeder knows about training, working with a dog. I want to know whether they work their dogs in some type of venue, not just that the dogs have titles. I want to know that the breeder is titled in some way too. And I want to know that these dogs are not just stuck in their kennels for six years until they stop having puppies for them. 

I knew a breeder who does not like the way his dogs always limp after having the penn-hip done on them. I never used the procedure, so I don't know. But that might be why they do not want the dog to be subjected to the penn-hip procedure. 

The guaranty is not worth the paper it will be written on. You are agreeing that you do not hold them accountable if the dog is not show-worthy -- that is just a cover-your-butt phrase for the breeder. Some people feel they can be refunded if a puppy does not pan out. A one-year guaranty against crippling hip dysplasia is what they are guarantying, and then you must return the pup (that by now you are bonded to) to be euthanized -- what else would they do, to get another puppy. 

Most people will not do this, even if the pup is crippled.

There is no definition of crippling hip dysplasia. It can be read by the buyer, that hip dysplasia is a crippling disease, so crippling hip dysplasia could mean hip dysplasia to the buyer. To the breeder, who knows that mild and moderate hip dysplasia may show no symptoms, and even chronic hip dysplasia can be a-symptomatic for many years, to them, crippling hip dysplasia means that the puppy cannot walk, cannot get itself around by twelve months of age. 

It is much more likely for your dog to be crippled from spondylosis or degenerative mylopothy (sp?) DM, than it would be crippled by hip dysplasia by 12 months. 

There are other health problems, genetic health concerns that afflict GSDs that to me are more of a concern:
DM, 
epilepsy,
elbow dysplasia
Mega-Esaphagus 

And others. 
Other things to consider are Hemophilia, Von Wildebrand's Disease, Cryptorchid, Skin-problems, EPI, SIBO, food allergies, Pannus, cardiac problems. 

Most health guaranties/warrantys do not cover most of these. But you can do a lot better than crippling hips for 12 months. hip and elbows, genetic problems. But if you have to give up the dog to enact the warranty, does not matter how bad the problem is, it is just not worth it.

It is not a show stopper for me, because I do not expect the dog to be free of every single problem, no dog is perfect, and might have an issue, that is part of ownership.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

Lakl said:


> The other thing that stands out to me is the term "crippling displaysia". What if your dog is diagnosed with just hip displaysia and not "Crippling" or some other genetic disorder? QUOTE]
> 
> I forgot this little gem too.
> 
> Don't get me wrong...I don't even have a guarantee on my puppy. But to me it raises flags when a breeder seems to be doing everything they can to create ways for them to avoid honoring a guarantee they have in place.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks for everyones help. Im heading out in about 20 minutes. I'll come back and let you guys know how it went.

Quick question before i go: How do i know if the pup is really from the parents that they claim? Cant anyone just get 2 pictures and say these are the parents? Even if the dogs are on site it could still be a different pup cant it? Is there any way to know for sure?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Aralez said:


> Quick question before i go: How do i know if the pup is really from the parents that they claim? Cant anyone just get 2 pictures and say these are the parents? Even if the dogs are on site it could still be a different pup cant it? Is there any way to know for sure?


There's really no way to know for sure. The sire's DNA is probably on file at AKC, the dam's is most likely not. If there's a female dog with big teats hanging down and the puppies are all following her, odds are it's the mother.  If the sire's DNA is on file, you could pay extra for a DNA test to "prove" the pup is the offspring of the sire, but don't expect the breeder to pay for that. Expect that they might feel insulted if you bring it up.

This is kinda where that whole trust thing comes in. You either trust the breeder to tell you the truth or you don't.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

They should at have registration paperwork from the AKC showing the proper parents. You get that when you buy the pup and either they have already or you will fill in the blanks. My current pup was already registered and I was given the transfer papers but normally I think you get a registration with only part of it filled in.

The info (registration numbers etc.) should match what you have. I think both parents are in the AKC registry so that should line up. Do not expect non AKC titles to show up on the pedigree.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

jocoyn said:


> They should at have registration paperwork from the AKC showing the proper parents. You get that when you buy the pup and either they have already or you will fill in the blanks. My current pup was already registered and I was given the transfer papers but normally I think you get a registration with only part of it filled in.


That's true, but AKC registration doesn't prove that the pup's parents are who the AKC papers say they are.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If they are selling AKC puppies, no it does not prove it, but larger breeders are likely to be visited by the AKC at some point. They check into the ID of the various dogs, and that your kennels and paperwork are in order. If they sell a lot of puppies, if someone questions the parentage of a litter, they may do DNA testing. If the pup is proved not to be of that parentage, they can be banned for 2, 5, 10 years or life, depending on some type of criteria. 

A back yard breeder might use an unpapered bitch and use another bitch's paperwork, and may never get caught. I think a larger breeder would be less likely to take that risk. 

There will be a few bitches with teets showing there, as there are three litters on the ground. 

I think that it really does not make sense to lie about a pup's parentage. If that gets around -- it is just too big of a risk.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Yeah, the whole lying about the parents thing happens, but I don't think it happens very often. It's odd there have been a couple of questions about that lately.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Emoore said:


> That's true, but AKC registration doesn't prove that the pup's parents are who the AKC papers say they are.


Exactly...the neighbor's lab could have jumped in the fence and bred the female, even. Or to make things more interesting, the neighbors GSD. Who is to say all those pups aren't a product of the father they say it is?
But that can happen with anyone's dogs, registered or not...


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

My comment to this would simply be.......IF I had "questions or concerns" on any level, that I even "thought" about asking such questions......why would I even consider looking at or possibly buying a puppy from them?
I would never even consider buying a puppy/dog from anyone that I would even have remote doubts about......*plain and simple*.
Just as I would never consider "selling" a puppy/dog to anyone that I had doubts about....


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

people get questions out of the air. there was nothing on that sight that suggested the pup was not out of the sire and dam listed. if the OP was buying a pup from you or any other breeder on this site or recommended by people on this site, they might have the same question. 

The pup is seven weeks old, and I only see one pup. That makes me wonder if they are giving the pups up earlier than seven weeks, or are they all sold and so taken down from the website, but still there, or was the pup a singleton? I do not know, it is not about having doubts, it is being open-minded and not jumping to the worst conclusions and just writing the people off.

If there are things that look questionable to me, I would ask questions, that gives me an opportunity to get a better feel for the breeder. What is crippling hip dysplasia? If the breeder says that is any diagnosis of hip dysplasia, then I would have them cross off and initial the word crippling from the contract, and might be ok with that (though 24 months would be better).


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

It is illegal in Cali to sell puppies under 8 weeks. 
If there were more and they are sold the fact they are unethical speaks volumes to me.


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Sue...I am primarily commenting to the "over all impression" of a buyer towards a seller...
IF you (the buyer) have considerable doubts about the integrity of a breeder......walk away.
It is a general comment, that blankets all buyers & sellers.
If a buyer feels "uncertain" or "cautious".....take a moment and step back.....same for a seller. *Look again with fresh, new eyes.....if things look and feel the same....walk away....if not....move forward*.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

robinhuerta said:


> Sue...I am primarily commenting to the "over all impression" of a buyer towards a seller...
> IF you (the buyer) have considerable doubts about the integrity of a breeder......walk away.
> It is a general comment, that blankets all buyers & sellers.
> If a buyer feels "uncertain" or "cautious".....take a moment and step back.....same for a seller. *Look again with fresh, new eyes.....if things look and feel the same....walk away....if not....move forward*.


I suggested some of those questions that he listed, and also told him to go with his gut. 

This breeder might have the whole litter sitting there waiting for eight weeks, but I think that he would have told the OP that the pup would not be going home until it reaches eight weeks over the phone. It is not something I would tell someone after they are there. 

I think that you need to have a reason to think that someone is unethical. You see some things that need more clarification, and if too many things are on the hairy edge of being the minimum, or questionable, it will give you a general feeling in your gut to pass. At least it will for me. I mean, if someone tells me they breed on the first heat cycle, then yeah, and you have a nice day, that's easy. But sometimes there is not one specific thing that is a total turn-off, but a build up of little things that by themselves would not give me heart failure.

But this how can I prove the pup is out of the listed dogs question, well, this is a question that anyone can ask of anyone, and no one has a DNA test available at their home to prove it. If you have a reason to believe they would lie about it, then don't even bother to go and look at the pups; otherwise, suggesting that is really, well, it is insulting.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> It is illegal in Cali to sell puppies under 8 weeks.
> If there were more and they are sold the fact they are unethical speaks volumes to me.


I think you can sell them, but just don't let them go home. Lots of us sell our puppies before they are born, others sell them at four-eight weeks, but we let them go home when they are of age. 

The breeder may be only listing those pups that are available -- not sold yet, but still there. This we do not know and can only guess. And so the question.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well , we'll have to wait until the OP tells us what they have done .
Bets anyone?

Carmen


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

selzer said:


> I think you can sell them, but just don't let them go home. Lots of us sell our puppies before they are born, others sell them at four-eight weeks, but we let them go home when they are of age.
> 
> The breeder may be only listing those pups that are available -- not sold yet, but still there. This we do not know and can only guess. And so the question.


Well yeah, that's what I meant...

Bets? I don't know. Have they visited and held other puppies up until now? 
Puppy fever is hard to combat when the little brats are in your arms.


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Everything was perfect! The breeder was very knowledgeable about everything i asked. Everything was above what i expected. I went to a couple other kennels in the area and this one really stood out to me. The pups were all very active and had great drives. None of them seemed to be shy or uncomfortable. The parents were very nice and had great temperaments. I wish i took my check-book with me to bring my lil guy home! Im going to be going back there tomorrow to pick up the one i chose. 

Thanks everyone for your help throughout my search, i really appreciate it a lot! I will post pics in the puppy section when i bring him home tomorrow. 

 Im so excited!


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

So how old is this puppy? Hopefully 8 weeks! Breeder should be picking puppy for you. You are a complete novice. They should know what puppy will meet your needs the best.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Congratulations and Good Luck!


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> Congratulations and Good Luck!


:thumbup:


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I agree...CONGRATS! Best wishes!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Enjoy your puppy!


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Lakl said:


> Sorry! Repeat! Missed this post!


lol this whole discussion reminds me of the movie "Tommy Boy"





"why would someone put a guarantee on a box"?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Congratulations and have fun! Get plenty of sleep tonight, because there will be none tomorrow night!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

So what were the breeder's answers to the questions you asked? I'm very curious.


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## idahospud49 (Jan 28, 2011)

Congratulations!!! Definitely post lots of pictures!


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## Aralez (Jan 28, 2011)

Thanks everyone! It was pretty late yesterday when i made that post so i didnt feel like getting into detail. Basically, the breeder has nothing to do with the website that we all saw. He has no website. He had nothing to do with the contract on the website, he had nothing to do with the links in the website regarding the contract. He owns Beo and a female different from Maximus' mom. Maximus was from a different breeding and wasnt even there. So im kinda upset about the lady whom i spoke to (owner of the website) who referred me to that breeder. The breeder was great, she on the other hand, was not. She was very misinformed and didnt seem very knowledgeable over the phone along with taking her website into account. So all of that "Mega Champion", "Hansom" and the contract along with the links to validate the contract on the website is her doing. But im glad that she wasnt my breeder, she wasnt even there. What my breeder told me was that when she (that lady) doesnt have any pups available she recommends us to him and in return she gets free studding. 


The guy i went to wasnt exactly a breeder though. He owns Beo and he leased the female in order to keep 3 pups from the litter and hes selling the rest. Kinda like Robins breeder. I dont exactly know what that says about him or if its common or not but thats the situation. Hes just heavily into the whole show and competition aspect. There were 4 males still available out of a littler of 9 pups, 7 males and 2 females. The pups are going to be 8 weeks in 2 days but he said i can take him. I dont think thats a big deal. He also told me that i could write up my own contract that guarantees the hips and elbows for 2 years and he'll sign it.


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## BR870 (May 15, 2011)

Aralez said:


> Thanks everyone! It was pretty late yesterday when i made that post so i didnt feel like getting into detail. Basically, the breeder has nothing to do with the website that we all saw. He has no website. He had nothing to do with the contract on the website, he had nothing to do with the links in the website regarding the contract. He owns Beo and a female different from Maximus' mom. Maximus was from a different breeding and wasnt even there. So im kinda upset about the lady whom i spoke to (owner of the website) who referred me to that breeder. The breeder was great, she on the other hand, was not. She was very misinformed and didnt seem very knowledgeable over the phone along with taking her website into account. So all of that "Mega Champion", "Hansom" and the contract along with the links to validate the contract on the website is her doing. But im glad that she wasnt my breeder, she wasnt even there. What my breeder told me was that when she (that lady) doesnt have any pups available she recommends us to him and in return she gets free studding.
> 
> 
> The guy i went to wasnt exactly a breeder though. He owns Beo and he leased the female in order to keep 3 pups from the litter and hes selling the rest. Kinda like Robins breeder. I dont exactly know what that says about him or if its common or not but thats the situation. Hes just heavily into the whole show and competition aspect. There were 4 males still available out of a littler of 9 pups, 7 males and 2 females. The pups are going to be 8 weeks in 2 days but he said i can take him. I dont think thats a big deal. He also told me that i could write up my own contract that guarantees the hips and elbows for 2 years and he'll sign it.


Sounds like he is willing to back up his dogs... Good!


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Wow, it sounds like everything turned out even better than expected! Congrats, and we will need lots of photos of your new pup.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sounds great. I think that it is good you went armed with questions. That shows the breeder that you are serious, and are learning about the breed, etc. Gives you an opportunity to hear what he has to say. 

It is really, really hard when you are looking at puppies rolling around, to say anything beyond, "oh, how cute, how sweet..." It is hard to remember all the different things you should ask before you buy. 

I would not sweat a day or two. 

I like Beo and his pedigree. 

And, I had a litter of ten GSL pups. 8 of the pups were middle of the road pups that would have done just fine in any home. 2 of the pups were a little more independent and needed to go to more experienced homes. 

Congratulations and looking forward to puppy pictures.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Whew...well then that's a relief that our impressions of the site were more or less correct and that the man with the puppies is different than the person with the site...congrats on the puppy, can't wait to see him!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

May not be bad to let him know after you have had the puppy for awhile and have a good relationship with him the impressions caused by being linked on that site.


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