# Older Puppies/Young Adult



## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

Hey guys, I recently had a wgsl that had bad elbows and hips at 7months old. Unfortunately, it was a very hard decision, but my wife and I decided to give him back to the breeder. 

We are now itching to get a GSD again and I do not want to go through the puppy stage. We are looking for a 1-2year old. Good temperament, nerves, socialized, good with children, etc. 

I was wondering how likely it is to find breeders with older dogs? And what is usually the case where they still have older dogs if they are not using them for their breeding program.


----------



## Hawke (Oct 31, 2018)

I'll freely admit that I'm not very familiar with WGSL breeders -- heck, I really can't even say I'm very familiar with DDR and Czech WL breeders, and that's where all of my experience is -- but I would say it really just depends. 

How far are you willing to look? Would you be willing to ship across the country from the right breeder? How long are you willing to wait? Are you specifically looking for WGSL pups or are you open to others? Are you willing to spend more for an older pup/young adult? These are the kinds of things that will make it easier or harder for you to find what you're looking for.

Breeders do have show- and working- prospects that they've held back only to later decide won't be the best fit for their program, and there are buyers who back out last minute or who take the puppy home only to return him/her for one reason or another. Some breeders will also know of friends or colleagues with dogs available, and might help network/advertise for those dogs as well. There are a long list of reasons why a breeder might have an older pup or young adult available, so there's no way to really say what is "usually the case" or what those older pups might look and act like. It'll really vary dog to dog, and breeder to breeder.

Some things to keep in mind: skipping the puppy stage might seem like the best way to save some time, effort, and headaches, but an older pup doesn't always mean an easier one. You might end up with a one-year-old who hasn't had any of her basic training done, who missed a critical socialization window, or who was accidentally encouraged by a previous buyer to jump, chew, bark, etc. Or you could find a dog that has been raised with a family and is already on his way to a BH. It just depends, so make sure you're asking questions to any breeder you're talking with. Why is the older pup/young adult available? What training, if any, has he or she already had? If the pup was returned from a previous buyer, what was the reasoning behind that decision? As always, make sure you really trust the breeder, and listen to them if they tell you they don't think this older pup/young adult is a good fit for you and your lifestyle. 

It's not impossible! I got my Czech WL girl when she was 7-almost-8 months, because she'd been held back by her breeder initially. I'd originally been looking for a young adult 18+ months old, so had reached out to some breeders who had trained dogs available, but was eventually steered toward my girl because she really was everything I was looking for, outside of the arbitrary age range I'd had in mind. I've got to say, even at just-shy-of-8-months, you're past the really intense puppy phase. Still definitely a puppy, but I was incredibly thankful she'd already been crate-trained, could already wait a bit longer for potty breaks, and already had a bit more of an attention span. I was lucky and still got a "puppy price" for her, but oftentimes older pups can have higher price tags attached, especially if the breeder or someone else has invested a lot of time in training and socializing them. Be prepared for that, and be prepared to wait a bit longer to find the right fit at the right price if budget is a primary concern for you.


----------



## ausdland (Oct 21, 2015)

Likely expensive and not breed worthy but that doesn't mean it won't be a great dog.


----------



## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think many people give up a dog with that description. I couldn't find one like that either so I just rolled up my sleeves and started with a pup. Glad that he is now 10 months old, still hard work but at least I know him inside out, which is different when you start with one that is older.


----------



## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

Hawke said:


> I'll freely admit that I'm not very familiar with WGSL breeders -- heck, I really can't even say I'm very familiar with DDR and Czech WL breeders, and that's where all of my experience is -- but I would say it really just depends.
> 
> How far are you willing to look? Would you be willing to ship across the country from the right breeder? How long are you willing to wait? Are you specifically looking for WGSL pups or are you open to others? Are you willing to spend more for an older pup/young adult? These are the kinds of things that will make it easier or harder for you to find what you're looking for.
> 
> ...



Thank you for this great response! This gave me good insight.
I am not in a rush right now and am willing to ship from across the country. I have my eyes on this dog from Taylor Made Working Dogs (http://taylormadeworkingdogs.com/dogs-and-puppies-for-sale/males-for-sale/), Vido. I also wanted some thoughts on this breeder - I know this is not one of their pups though. They said, "He's been great in our house and with our family and employees. He took A week or two to settle in. We got him from a police kennel who imported him and he was with a very heavy handed trainer. We guarantee against genetic issues and he's already passed testing and had X-rays. He really enjoys work and is a fantastic protection dog. It would be shame for him to not be worked. Even if it's just obedience, he really likes it." This was from a conversation on instagram direct message. Any insight would be greatly appreciated


----------



## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't think many people give up a dog with that description. I couldn't find one like that either so I just rolled up my sleeves and started with a pup. Glad that he is now 10 months old, still hard work but at least I know him inside out, which is different when you start with one that is older.


well said, i agree with this too!


----------



## Hawke (Oct 31, 2018)

r3tro23 said:


> Thank you for this great response! This gave me good insight.
> I am not in a rush right now and am willing to ship from across the country. I have my eyes on this dog from Taylor Made Working Dogs (http://taylormadeworkingdogs.com/dogs-and-puppies-for-sale/males-for-sale/), Vido. I also wanted some thoughts on this breeder - I know this is not one of their pups though. They said, "He's been great in our house and with our family and employees. He took A week or two to settle in. We got him from a police kennel who imported him and he was with a very heavy handed trainer. We guarantee against genetic issues and he's already passed testing and had X-rays. He really enjoys work and is a fantastic protection dog. It would be shame for him to not be worked. Even if it's just obedience, he really likes it." This was from a conversation on instagram direct message. Any insight would be greatly appreciated



I have not had any personal interactions with Taylor Made Working Dogs, but several people I trust run in similar circles, and I've only heard positive things about Kris Taylor and some of the other trainers over there. They seem to consistently produce good dogs, from everything I've seen and heard. I'd also expect their dogs to be priced as such. Again, my experience is only indirect, but I feel pretty confident based on the quality of breeders and trainers I know who would recommend them. I know there are people on this forum who have more direct experience with them, though, so you might want to browse the forums a bit and send a couple of them a private message to ask for any details or experiences they'd be willing to share. I know there was a discussion on TMWD on this thread, but a search of the forums will give you a couple of different options.

Best advice I'd give for anyone looking at an older trained dog is to really be brutally honest with the breeder/trainer about what you want to do with the dog, and what you can and can't provide. The more upfront you can be, the better a breeder/trainer can get a feel for what dog really would be the best match for you. I know when I was searching, I shared everything about my history with dogs -- the good, the bad, and the ugly -- and I was also clear on what I was interested in doing but also what kind of time I could realistically dedicate to training. I credit this as one of the reasons I was able to find such a perfect fit. Sharing my recent bad experience with a rescue that I ended up having to return to the rescue group, for instance, really helped the woman I worked with to steer me toward the dog that was the best fit. Other dogs might've looked better on paper, but if you find a breeder or trainer you can trust, _trust_ them. They know their dogs, and they really can help you determine whether a dog is the right fit, or whether you'd be better off waiting for another one.


----------



## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

Hawke said:


> I have not had any personal interactions with Taylor Made Working Dogs, but several people I trust run in similar circles, and I've only heard positive things about Kris Taylor and some of the other trainers over there. They seem to consistently produce good dogs, from everything I've seen and heard. I'd also expect their dogs to be priced as such. Again, my experience is only indirect, but I feel pretty confident based on the quality of breeders and trainers I know who would recommend them. I know there are people on this forum who have more direct experience with them, though, so you might want to browse the forums a bit and send a couple of them a private message to ask for any details or experiences they'd be willing to share. I know there was a discussion on TMWD on this thread, but a search of the forums will give you a couple of different options.
> 
> Best advice I'd give for anyone looking at an older trained dog is to really be brutally honest with the breeder/trainer about what you want to do with the dog, and what you can and can't provide. The more upfront you can be, the better a breeder/trainer can get a feel for what dog really would be the best match for you. I know when I was searching, I shared everything about my history with dogs -- the good, the bad, and the ugly -- and I was also clear on what I was interested in doing but also what kind of time I could realistically dedicate to training. I credit this as one of the reasons I was able to find such a perfect fit. Sharing my recent bad experience with a rescue that I ended up having to return to the rescue group, for instance, really helped the woman I worked with to steer me toward the dog that was the best fit. Other dogs might've looked better on paper, but if you find a breeder or trainer you can trust, _trust_ them. They know their dogs, and they really can help you determine whether a dog is the right fit, or whether you'd be better off waiting for another one.


Thank you so much! I will do that when talking to these breeders on prospective older dogs


----------



## Momto2GSDs (Mar 22, 2012)

r3tro23 said:


> I have my eyes on this dog from Taylor Made Working Dogs (http://taylormadeworkingdogs.com/dogs-and-puppies-for-sale/males-for-sale/), Vido. I also wanted some thoughts on this breeder -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Hawke (Oct 31, 2018)

Happy to help!

I do want to say I second focusing in on some of those lines *Momto2GSDs* pointed out. The law enforcement and heavy hand mention on that particular dog gives me pause as well, but I would think you could just ask TMWD for clarification on those statements. I'd also ask more about what the dog's previous experience was, how they found the dog, why the LE placement didn't work, etc. I do think TMWD has a generally good reputation for turning out good dogs, but that definitely does not mean each of their dogs would be good for the same lifestyles and homes. And they should be open and honest about that. If you're talking to them and they can't say a single negative thing about the dog, or name an environment or situation the dog wouldn't excel in, I'd back away. No dog is perfect for every environment, and you want to work with someone who will be brutally honest with you, too.

Something I'm not sure I was clear enough on in my last post: I would definitely talk about your training style and family situation (including, even if you don't have kids, whether friends or family with kids visit often). *Momto2GSDs* made an excellent point about some protection trained dogs not being able to discriminate between play-fighting and real fighting. That particular dog from TMWD might be too much dog for what you want, or might, because of that previous LE training with a "heavy hand," not be suited for your particular training style. Or not; I obviously don't know you or the dog, and it might actually be a good match. But if that isn't the case, that's not to say anything bad about you or the dog! It's just about fit. There are some fantastic dogs out there that are too much dog for me, or that require a more confident handler in certain situations where I might be prone to anxiety. I wasn't offended when I was told that I wouldn't be the right handler for one of the dogs I had originally been really excited about. It's not about trying to prove to a breeder/trainer that you can handle any dog, it's about finding the right pairing of handler and dog.


----------



## r3tro23 (Dec 30, 2017)

Thank you for all the responses, I will put a lot of thought and consideration with all the insight received here. Much appreciated!


----------

