# Please tell me it gets easier



## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

In April I lost the love of my life in the dog world, a female show line that was barely 3 yrs old, smart, easy to train, easy to live with and my constant companion 24/7. Her life was cut short due to a very aggressive breast cancer that spread to her lymph nodes and I had to let her go within 3 months of discovering her condition. I was extremely heart broken. The trainer where I use to take her for training heard about my girl and offered to give me a male working line pup out of extremely nice blood lines. Having wanted a male, working line pup for some time, I accepted his offer. For the most part I really love my boy. He is a big, strong boy (somewhere around 73-75 pounds) at barely 9 mths. Not only is this my first working line pup, but I am not exactly young, I am 60 yrs old and decided it is time for me to try my hand at trialing my pup. For the past 3 weeks he has been challenging me something awful. He growls, bares his teeth, and will flat out try to bite me when giving him corrections on the field during bite work. It has gotten to the point the trainer is having to choke him up, using a dominant collar, and basically not give him a bite except for one when he calms down as a reward then put him in his crate. He has also started challenging me at home with his toys. I really don't want to give him back, I have never given up on a dog, but sometimes I feel like I am not the right person for this pup. Please tell me it gets better as the training progresses and he matures. I am already attached to him and really don't want to give up on him:frown2:


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

This is just my opinion but it really sounds like you needto have a “heart to heart” session with your dog. He is testing his limits andYOU need to set them. If this was my dog I would back tie him on a solid polewith a collar that isn’t going to break and a dominate dog collar. I would thenset him up in a situation that normally causes him to growl at you when he doesgrowl I would crank on the dominate dog collar until he stops the behavior thatyou don’t want. I have found that this method will quickly reinforce the limitsthat you want set. I would caution you to not do this in front of the generalpublic as it can appear very harsh.


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

First, I am so sorry for the loss of your girl. It is always hard to lose them, but when they are so young, it is really tough.

My shepherds have only been shelter dogs - probably an entire conglomeration of lines. I can't really help you with the working lines. I'm sure someone will pop on who can. Just know that the board gets a little slow on the weekends.

What I will say, is that being overwhelmed and in over your head is not a good place to be. You deserve a dog that you can enjoy. Your dog deserves a home that can work him to his full potential. I'm not saying that isn't you. I don't know. What I mean is, if you did have to give him back, hard as it might be, it could be the best thing for both of you.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Hugs!


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, it can get better. Protection handling can be tough. Its more technical then people realize. Pay attention to the trainer. This is one of those times where there isn't much that's helpful online. The balance of things you need just has to come from in person, skilled helpers and trainer. The last thing you want to do is try and base your training on comparisons to other people's dogs.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

9 months old is the terrible teenage phase. I would stop doing bite work honestly. Trainers sometimes are too harsh with pups that are too young. Take all his toys away, when he behaves let him play with a toy. He needs to know that they are YOUR toys.
I would also stop feeding him by bowl, it may be hard since you're 60 years old but I would strictly hand feed him all his meals throughout the day. Make him sit or down then feed him, wait until he does something good (can be something as little as making eye contact with you) and feed him.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> 9 months old is the terrible teenage phase. I would stop doing bite work honestly. Trainers sometimes are too harsh with pups that are too young. Take all his toys away, when he behaves let him play with a toy. He needs to know that they are YOUR toys.
> I would also stop feeding him by bowl, it may be hard since you're 60 years old but I would strictly hand feed him all his meals throughout the day. Make him sit or down then feed him, wait until he does something good (can be something as little as making eye contact with you) and feed him.


And then what? Take him back out when he's older and that much stronger and harder to control? I like talking about training almost everything, but there are things that you defer to what the helpers and training director are advising.


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Thanks Coastie01 for the advice  That is basically what the trainer did this past Sunday when he tried to go after me for correcting him on his "out". He was back tied and we had a leash on his dominate collar. The trainer did the correction while I gave the commands. At one point my pup almost passed out. It is very hard for me to watch this so I am hoping it gets easier over training and time  And yes, definately not something I would try to do with anyone that does not understand this type of bloodlines. I would be arrested for dog abuse, lol


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

It is hard to watch the first few times but remember thatyou are doing it for his own good. Unchecked aggression like that is going tolead to him biting someone and having to be put down in the long run. My friendhas a dog that she competed in regional last year and hopes to get to nationalsthis year that had the exact problem that you are going through now. She didthe same thing I said and he is now an awesome dog.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Sparky BV said:


> Thanks Coastie01 for the advice  That is basically what the trainer did this past Sunday when he tried to go after me for correcting him on his "out". He was back tied and we had a leash on his dominate collar. The trainer did the correction while I gave the commands. At one point my pup almost passed out. It is very hard for me to watch this so I am hoping it gets easier over training and time  And yes, definately not something I would try to do with anyone that does not understand this type of bloodlines. I would be arrested for dog abuse, lol





Steve Strom said:


> And then what? Take him back out when he's older and that much stronger and harder to control? I like talking about training almost everything, but there are things that you defer to what the helpers and training director are advising.


So I'm new to the world of working lines, but you're saying that it's fine to have a pup almost pass out as a form of training?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

If you don't have the energy level and aren't enjoying the challenge of working with a difficult dog then give him up to someone who does.Both of you would be so much happier.I bought what will be my last puppy at age 59.I carefully chose a pup with a mellow temperament and medium energy level.Rally and OB have been enjoyable activities for us.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Julian G said:


> So I'm new to the world of working lines, but you're saying that it's fine to have a pup almost pass out as a form of training?





The intent isn’t for the dog to pass out. The point is tocorrect an extreme behavior. This isn’t a method that you would use becauseyour dog wont sit or something small. In this case the OP has a 75 lbs WL GSDwho is becoming aggressive to the point that he is becoming a danger to himselfand others. To remedy an extreme situation takes extreme measures. If somethingisn’t done to rectify this situation the dog is going to end up biting someoneand getting put down. In this case and other extreme cases it is totallyappropriate to have a pup “almost pass out” as a form of correction.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Julian G said:


> So I'm new to the world of working lines, but you're saying that it's fine to have a pup almost pass out as a form of training?


It is used by those who know what they are doing and only on certain dogs (like this one, maybe???). I have heard this done, never seen it, but know it is acceptable in the working dog world. Of course, "positive" only TV personalities would have a fit....but they are worthless anyway when it comes to working with a serious working dog.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think life is too short not to be enjoying yourself and your dog. Might the relationship improve by working in a different sport? Get a private trainer to help you address the issues at home.

Is it a life dream to title in schutzhund and otherwise you will be devastated? This is just me but if I were training my dog regularly resulting in that level of fighting and corrections no way would I want to keep doing it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> So I'm new to the world of working lines, but you're saying that it's fine to have a pup almost pass out as a form of training?


When you get your dog Julian, don't think about training protection from a video. I said something very simple, with all due respect to Coastie and everyone else, leave it to the trainer and helpers.


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Steve Strom said:


> When you get your dog Julian, don't think about training protection from a video. I said something very simple, with all due respect to Coastie and everyone else, leave it to the trainer and helpers.




Steve 100% agree don’t train your dog from a book or aforum. I might have needed to be more clear in my response that I wasn’t sayingthat she should do this. I was saying if it was my dog I would do what I said.She should talk to her trainer and maybe discuss the method I said, which itseems like they were already doing anyways.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Is it necessary to do bite work? Does the dog have the temperament for it? WL dogs can do all kinds of sports very well. How does he do with basic obedience commands? Are the trainers you are working with very good at what they are doing? I would listen to Steve's advice here as he has a lot of experience with what you are working on. From my perspective, I had to get my WL puppy to focus on me and show respect. He isn't showing aggression but he was jumping on me and other people, showing a lack of boundaries and respect. He doesn't do that anymore.


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## eddie1976E (Nov 7, 2010)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think life is too short not to be enjoying yourself and your dog. Might the relationship improve by working in a different sport? Get a private trainer to help you address the issues at home.
> 
> Is it a life dream to title in schutzhund and otherwise you will be devastated? This is just me but if I were training my dog regularly resulting in that level of fighting and corrections no way would I want to keep doing it.


On the surface this makes sense, but I bet this is the kind of dog that "needs" to bite and fight the bad guy. If you don't give him an outlet, who knows what he might do. At least they are teaching the dog self control, bite inhibition, etc. Without that...this dog might end up getting the needle. 

However, I think this issue is best addressed with trainers who have first hand experience, not over the internet (which was already pointed out). The OP is in the best situation to deal with this dog. PP trainers will be able to determine if there is a fix or not and if not, the OP will have a hard decision (or in my case, easy....I can't tolerate that from a dog, shape up or ship out! :grin2

Good luck to you. Please update on your progress.


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl, truthfully I have always enjoyed watching the sport, and participating in the training for the trials, but no it is not something I "need" to do to keep me happy. All I really want is a "well trained" and "reliable" protection dog which is why I have been going to this trainer. I do feel a bit of an obligation to trial the dog at some point due to the fact they "gave" me this pup out of kindness. I don't think they ever really expected me to trial him, I do however still need to continue going to training to teach him how to be a protection dog that "listens" to me and "respects" me enough to not just bite someone whenever he pleases. I just want a well adjusted, well trained, companion/protection dog that I can take out in public and enjoy like I did with my last girl. And I know that is possible  I guess after hearing from "many" working line owners that they are far easier to train than a show line, and far more reliable as a protection dog, I just wasn't expecting this kind of behavior. I am just hoping it gets easier as he grows up a bit. This breeder has been breeding and training these dogs for many, many years and produces quality dogs.


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> When you get your dog Julian, don't think about training protection from a video. I said something very simple, with all due respect to Coastie and everyone else, leave it to the trainer and helpers.


Oh **** no lol. I will leave it to the pros, but how about some imprinting games? How about holding the pup on lead and have someone agitate him a bit?


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Hey all, I didn't mean to start any problems with each other  I do plan on continuing with the training with this trainer as he is very good at what he does. I have been going to him for close to 3 yrs and have seen dogs he has bred, and trained from puppy hood, that are exactly what I want for my pup. Guess I just wanted to hear some "life experiences" from others that may have been through the same thing. I do realize that the internet is not the only place to get advice and I will always listen to my trainer. But sometimes just hearing what others have experienced, or gone through, can be encouraging. I'm just hoping this is an "age" related issue and that it will get better, and easier, as the training progresses and he gets more mature


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I am just curious how old this puppy was when you got him?


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## Coastie01 (Mar 17, 2011)

Sparky I don’t think you started problems with anyone. Wehave all had our ups and downs in training. You are going through a down butyou will emerge victorious and better handler. Just keep working with yourtrainer and your new boy will be the dog you want.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Don't worry,you didn't start any problems!We all have different perspectives is all.In my mind's eye I see a person unhappy and stressed with his dog.I can't see a clear headed, reliable companion and PP dog.Very best of luck to you achieving that though!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Sparky BV said:


> Hey all, I didn't mean to start any problems with each other  I do plan on continuing with the training with this trainer as he is very good at what he does. I have been going to him for close to 3 yrs and have seen dogs he has bred, and trained from puppy hood, that are exactly what I want for my pup. Guess I just wanted to hear some "life experiences" from others that may have been through the same thing. I do realize that the internet is not the only place to get advice and I will always listen to my trainer. But sometimes just hearing what others have experienced, or gone through, can be encouraging. I'm just hoping this is an "age" related issue and that it will get better, and easier, as the training progresses and he gets more mature


You aren't! I'm interested in hearing what everyone has to say. But if you are having questions about IPO then people with that experience should be advising you. There are several posting here, I didn't mean to imply that Steve is the only one. 

Once you explained why you are teaching PP, it makes sense.


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I am just curious how old this puppy was when you got him?


He was just shy of 5 months when I got him. I was going through a rough time with my female, knowing that she only had a short time left, so unfortunately he didn't get as much attention from me as he should have for the first month I had him. I do have to keep reminding myself that he is still a puppy due to his size. It also seems like I have had him for a while when in fact it has just been a few months.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Well...I am not trying to overstep the bounds of an internet forum, nor am I trying to overstep my experience with dogs. I have had 4 gsds, none trained, competed or titles in schutzhund so there it is.

I am not passing judgment on a training style, method, or sport. For me personally, if I had a pet that I was looking to compete in some sport that required this type of training and it was upsetting to me (which OP stated it is upsetting to them) ...I realize some people aren't upset by this stuff. I would either compete in a sport that I could do with my dog without having to resort to training like that or if the dog was such that everything would be a struggle maybe rehome it to someone better equipped to handle it.

If I were any type of LE or military person partnered with a similar dog, different story. You do what you have to do, it isn't a hobby, and people's lives are on the line

I have had lots of challenges in training that weren't necessarily fun to push through, but had to be done, and I am certainly not trying to say bail at the first difficulty in reaching a goal. It is all about priorities. And not trying to put a round peg in a square hole.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but that is my opinion.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dogs like this are a real challenge, especially if it is your first working line. My dog will have a little temper tantrum if given a strong correction, but I ignore it and he settles down and starts to behave. I know him enough to know that it is just a little bit of drama, and that he is not going to redirect onto me.

With a dog like yours, you will need to think about how you want to work him, how far you want to push him, and how you will deal with his behaviour. At home, use a lot of obedience in everything you do to avoid confrontation and conflict - you don't want to turn your entire relationship into one big fight. He may be getting old for it, but I would still carry treats, and distract him with treats. You want him to take away something from him? Teach a trading game. You need him to stop doing something, bring out a treat and move him into obedience exercises, then redirect him to another activity. The goal is that with time, all your requests will be happily followed because he associates them with fun and reward, not a fight and conflict. 
I used treats to get my dogs in the van, in their crates, in the house for up to a year during the training period. Results were that "Get in our crate", "Get in the car", and "get in the house" are all happy things that doesn't even crossed their mind ever to not follow through. 

If you correct him in training, be ready to immediately give him a command so his focus will be on that, and he has no time to react (easier said than done, I know, LOL). 

As to keep him, return him, or title him, think about what you can live with, what you are willing to live with. I did have a dog a while back that I did returned to the breeder due to unpredictable and un-warranted aggression towards me, and it was a heart-breaking thing to do since I have had the dog from a puppy. It was my first puppy too, my first working line, since my other dogs had been shelter dogs. It was to be my SchH dog that I raised and trained from puppy-hood, so I the feelings of loss and failure (and even shame) were hard to accept - but bottom line I could not live with this dog, I did not feel safe with him, and sending him back was one of the most difficult things I ever did. 

You can step back from the bite-work a bit and just focus on building that bond and on getting a solid obedience foundation. I've seen one other go this route with a dog that had handler agression - didn't even start bite-work until the dog was about 2 years old, and it was so smooth! The obedience was all there, the dog being very strong and having natural aggression was brought up to intensity in a slow, and measured way.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Julian G said:


> How about holding the pup on lead and have someone agitate him a bit?


a horrible idea. a good way to create behavior issues, including aggression


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I would step up the obedience and not do bitework until you have some control on him. Controlled aggression is important, and a 9 month old puppy isn't yet mature enough to cap that. I think you or your trainer is pushing him too much for what he can handle. It should never be a battle with the handler, but a partnership against the threat. 
If you are trying to control his drive state because he cannot yet do it, then IMO you are pushing him too fast, too soon for his maturity level. 
I see many people do this, they think young dogs should be able to do things quickly and clearly...and the brain just can't deal. Please be fair to the pup, and if you question your trainers methods, ask for explanations.
I've been there, done that with Karlo...thankfully he was clear headed enough to not redirect on me. But he was pushed far too quickly for what he could mentally handle. He could fight, no problem, but there should be no reason for the fight to ever be with the handler.


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## Susan_GSD_mom (Jan 7, 2014)

Sparky BV said:


> Hey all, I didn't mean to start any problems with each other  I do plan on continuing with the training with this trainer as he is very good at what he does. I have been going to him for close to 3 yrs and have seen dogs he has bred, and trained from puppy hood, that are exactly what I want for my pup. Guess I just wanted to hear some "life experiences" from others that may have been through the same thing. I do realize that the internet is not the only place to get advice and I will always listen to my trainer. But sometimes just hearing what others have experienced, or gone through, can be encouraging. I'm just hoping this is an "age" related issue and that it will get better, and easier, as the training progresses and he gets more mature


I am nearly 70, with two wl GSDs, one is from Czech bloodlines. I have never gone in the direction of schutzhund or IPO training, but always OB trained my dogs, several of which I would consider on the hard side, one in particular. However, I trained horses in the past and am strong for my size, and have never had an ounce of fear of any of my dogs, and that included the wolf/shepherd crosses I had years ago. This is not to brag, but it is to say that confidence goes a very long way with the harder animals. My hardest dog did challenge me and did bite me, but at one point I just chose to ignore the threats, and continued with what I was doing, physically pulling him along if I had to. I wasn't afraid of his growls or bites, and when he figured out that none of that worked, he gave it up. Took about 2 weeks. I chose this route because I was getting older and just didn't want the big 'heart to heart' (though we did have a few smaller ones, lol). And, yes, all this came during his immature years. He matured into a very good, reliable dog, one of my favorites. I think right now the most important thing for you to do is to work with your trainer on building your confidence in yourself, and building your dog's respect for you. I'm not going to tell you how, I would have to know the dog and you to do that, but your trainer, if he is good, can help you there. Also, a bite is not the end of the world. You work through the pain and go on. I would much rather be bitten by a dog than a horse, lol.

Susan


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Awesome, so I was kind of stuck in the "train schutzhund like this" or "stop training schutzhund altogether", and two people with experience have now suggested some great ideas of how you might just approach things differently with this dog to have less conflict.


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## Sparky BV (May 6, 2013)

Thank you everyone for your wonderful comments and suggestions, I actually do feel much better about my boy now   Castlemaid, your suggestion about the treats is a great idea. He has been very possessive of his toys lately ( a couple of balls ), so I have taken all his toys away except for one chew toy and have been working on the "leave it" command. In class the problem comes in the protection phase when all he wants to do is go for the sleeves on the ground, or get a bite, then he turns into this wild child. He is a very high drive pup so we are trying to get him to listen to me through obedience before he gets too much bigger and stronger. I plan on getting some burlap and covering up some cardboard that is shaped like sleeves to lay around in the front yard, and the house, to work on the leave it command at home where it isn't such an intense environment. The treats and his ball will be perfect for that. Susan, thank you for the encouraging words!!! My boy is out of Czech lines also. I see his sire work every Sunday and I have to say he is impressive. Actually very calm, unlike his son, lol. And you are right about the bites and confidence. I definately do not let him feel any fear from me, nor do I let him win by backing away. I do feel in the end, about 2 yrs from now (  )when he has matured, that I will look back on this and reminisce about all we went through together when he was just a puppy. I also realize that a lot of problems with young dogs are created by the handler, so I will have a conversation with the trainer to see what I can do differently with him at home. Thanks again!!


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## Julian G (Apr 4, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> a horrible idea. a good way to create behavior issues, including aggression


hmm. 
I have seen top trainers (Michael Ellis, KNPV trainers from Holland) do this. Not over the top rough, but they at least familiarize them with bite work at an early age. I might not be seeing it in the right way, but it looks like agitation to me. Maybe others can chime in, I am curious to what everyone thinks is a good age to start the process.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

A dog like this does not need agitation - they have all the power and aggression in them, they need control and direction in controlling it. 
You can't learn protection training from videos - it really needs to be customized to the dog.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Julian G said:


> hmm.
> I have seen top trainers (Michael Ellis, KNPV trainers from Holland) do this. Not over the top rough, but they at least familiarize them with bite work at an early age. I might not be seeing it in the right way, but it looks like agitation to me. Maybe others can chime in, I am curious to what everyone thinks is a good age to start the process.


Agitation as a single step towards something is one thing, the problem I see is where the agitation is the whole training. People go to ex-master trainer who used to do such and such back when this was that and he heats the dog up over and over so that he's barking like a demon. That's all he ever learns. Light up like a demon till you run out of gas. 

The best analogy I've seen is that its like a motor. They can't keep the rpm's at 10,000 forever and not blow. They have to idle down. But you have to know how to do all that by reading the dog. Its not as easy as seeing the video. 

A lot of what you see with stuff from europe is them trying to sell dogs. You may be seeing something that has nothing to do with the way they actually train their own dogs.


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## gsdluvr (Jun 26, 2012)

Julian G said:


> 9 months old is the terrible teenage phase. I would stop doing bite work honestly. Trainers sometimes are too harsh with pups that are too young. Take all his toys away, when he behaves let him play with a toy. He needs to know that they are YOUR toys.
> I would also stop feeding him by bowl, it may be hard since you're 60 years old but I would strictly hand feed him all his meals throughout the day. Make him sit or down then feed him, wait until he does something good (can be something as little as making eye contact with you) and feed him.


 @Steve, I believe this answer was based on the idea that this dog needs more pack structure at home to help with the dominance issue. We have never seen the dog, so it may or may not be the case. But I think it is good the answers address all the possibilities.


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