# What is this? Genetics? Testosterone? My fault??



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

This behavior started right about the time Kopper hit puberty.

He's not aggressive to other dogs if they leave him alone, but he _hates_ other dogs in his space. If a dog starts getting close to him, he'll give them the hard stare-down and a warning growl or bark. If the dog continues to get closer, even if they're all wiggly and bowing and wanting to play, he'll lunge and snap at the other dog. He does _not_ want to play. Also, he hates other dogs staring at him. If we're in class and he catches another dog looking at him for more than a few seconds, he'll lock eyes with them. If they don't look away he'll give this low growl and bark. 

We don't have a problem in our classes because he never goes up to other dogs. Some of the other dogs will take it as an invitation to go visiting when their owner takes the leash off to run an agility course. Kopper is focused on me and the course and doesn't want anything to do with the other dogs. So he's not aggressive-- just defensive when approached. If we're in class and another dog goes running off course and runs up to him he gets very angry. The loose dog gets this "Holy crap!" look on his face and goes running off to visit a friendlier dog. 

I know it's not lack of socialization.  And there's nothing remotely fearful about it. I'm wondering if it's a bloodline thing? Testosterone? Teenage boy? Will it go away when I neuter him? I'd like to start fostering again eventually but can't so long as he's biting strange dogs who have the temerity to invade his space.

He loves Rocky very much and loves to play with him. He's very respectful of the old man.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Jax is the same way. She can coexist with strange dogs as long as they do not show any interest in her and she hates them in her space. Except she got herself in a boatload of trouble last night by deciding to run into the road and get in a dogs face that was walking by...speaking of...need to call her later and make sure her kids aren't permanently traumatized. ugh


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Emoore said:


> I'd like to start fostering again eventually but can't so long as he's biting strange dogs who have the temerity to invade his space.


Raven can be the same way. I wouldn't say she gets very angry about it but she's done the same things like angry barking at a dog for staring at her in class or telling another dog off for being in her space (heck, even Kaiser is on the other end of this occasionally). 

I am very careful about her interactions with new fosters for the first week or two until they've learned each other's boundaries but it's never been a major problem. I will let her set her boundaries without making contact and step in before she has to if the foster isn't getting it.

As long as you know his boundaries and can work around it, I don't see why you can't foster still.


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## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

i'd work on leave it, and agree with raven, as long as you maintain control of the foster, there's no reason it can't work.
have you ever gone on a walk with another person/dog ?
will he allow himself to be smelled by another dog?


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think it's his bloodlines plus his age. Definitely genetics, he will not be a dog social butterfly. I am also pretty sure that once he knows the dog, and knows means a walk or two, then he will be tolerating or even loving other dogs. I don't think neutering will change anything, just let him mature, work on 'leave it' , and avoid situations where he overreacts.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Zeus went through that phase, I had to really work on his attitude at that age. It changed once he matured- I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Neutering won't change that behavior. It 'sounds like' fear aggression because it is reactive rather than him being the troublemaker. It will take a lot of socialization and training on your part to get him to snap out of it, if that is what you want. I have seen dogs that could not be changed and remained that way (they were neutered) for life.
I hope Josie is right and I am wrong.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I'd say he's developing into the "sheriff" dog some become.

Our Yaeger used to discipline foster dogs here for barking at our livestock. It was funny because he could bark at them if he wanted, but if they did, look out!

Dogs like this, you can foster with them still, but you have to watch the other dogs carefully and not let them do things he thinks are "wrong". The problem with that is that dogs have their own "rules" and other rules (such as house rules) don't matter, they don't care if the dog pees on the rug, but let them meander into the kitchen or something that he's decided is "off limits" and there's **** to pay.

Is he injuring other dogs, can you tell? Yaeger never injured but he did often body slam them when first meeting them, as if to tell them he is in charge here and nobody get out of line!

Oh and we foster with Libby but she's not aggressive, and she is just like that...if they ignore her and stay out of her space she's fine. She's been known to snap but always gives a warning (curled lips first, then a growl if they ignore that). She doesn't respond to submissive behavior on the puppy's part, either, although if possible she'll get up and leave, mostly because I'm telling her "Be nice!!"


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

msvette2u said:


> Is he injuring other dogs, can you tell?


He's never gotten the chance. I've always been there for his interactions with other dogs to keep it from escalating. 

Thanks for the insight everybody. He does have a good "leave it"-- it's what I use when he starts to get into that zone, but of course it doesn't work if the other dog is oblivious and insists on barging into his space. 

Of course, everybody we come in contact with who's not on this forum thinks it's because he is intact and that I should neuter him immediately. He won't be neutered until he's 18 months-2 years, if at all. 

He's been on off-leash hikes with Josie's Koda, Danielle's Otto, and some of Carla's clan, but those were before he hit full puberty. I'd be worried about trying it again. 

If the other dog is very polite and has good manners, he'll do the butt-sniffing thing and allow himself to be sniffed in return, but then he's done and wants to walk away and be left alone.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Well Yaeger was neutered around 5-6mo. and still did the "dog sheriff" behavior


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Emoore said:


> He's been on off-leash hikes with Josie's Koda, Danielle's Otto, and some of Carla's clan, but those were before he hit full puberty. I'd be worried about trying it again.
> 
> If the other dog is very polite and has good manners, he'll do the butt-sniffing thing and allow himself to be sniffed in return, but then he's done and wants to walk away and be left alone.


If I remember correctly, Kopper wanted to violate Koda.... ..


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Emoore said:


> He's never gotten the chance. I've always been there for his interactions with other dogs to keep it from escalating.
> 
> Thanks for the insight everybody. He does have a good "leave it"-- it's what I use when he starts to get into that zone, but of course it doesn't work if the other dog is oblivious and insists on barging into his space.
> 
> ...


 

going off of that, it sounds like he's okay with dogs who are polite instead of barging into his space but has zero tolerance for dogs without manners. BUT even if he catches them looking for just a couple seconds and behaves that way, i wouldnt accept that. If the other dog is in fact doing a stare down, I would certainly understand if he gets offended by it. 

He sounds like he is just selective on his friends and doesnt want new ones and is making it clear. Also sounds like he knows he's in class to work and expects the other dogs to behave accordingly as well. Then you add in maturity coming around and well... congrats, teenage boy.


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## phgsd (Jun 6, 2004)

He is just maturing...none of mine (all WL dogs) are okay with dogs getting in their faces. Neutering won't change it. With Djenga I know it's out of fear - with the others, I know it's not.
The foster thing might still be okay if he will accept new dogs once he gets to know them. Most dogs will, but not all, and you would have to watch the temperament of the dogs you bring in.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

KZoppa said:


> BUT even if he catches them looking for just a couple seconds and behaves that way, i wouldnt accept that. If the other dog is in fact doing a stare down, I would certainly understand if he gets offended by it.


Nah, if he catches them looking, he'll look back right into their eyes. Definitely a challenging stare. If they won't drop their gaze he starts rumbling. If I catch him looking at another dog for more than a second or two I'll redirect him by getting him to watch me and then do the "sit-stand-down-sit-shake-stand-sit" routine to earn a reward. 

I think he has an over-inflated sense of his own bada**ness.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Emoore said:


> Nah, if he catches them looking, he'll look back right into their eyes. Definitely a challenging stare. If they won't drop their gaze he starts rumbling. If I catch him looking at another dog for more than a second or two I'll redirect him by getting him to watch me and then do the "sit-stand-down-sit-shake-stand-sit" routine to earn a reward.
> 
> I think he has an over-inflated sense of his own bada**ness.


 
LOL yup, definitely sounds like a teenage boy. Doesnt matter whether its human, cat, dog, etc. . . that darn ego kicks in! As long as you're redirecting him before he reaches an ignore mom point or a harder to get his focus back point, he may loosen up a bit as he gets older. 

I know with Zena, even after she was spayed, she was still very much like how you describe Kopper so I always had to watch her pretty closely. She was the big boss lady and she wanted everyone to know it. She didnt seek out new dog friends. She was fine with Riley and tolerated other dogs in the house because she knew i wouldnt allow any attitude between them but outside was a different story. Since her stroke 3 years ago, she's not the same dog. She's still the big boss lady but thats easy to do when you not only outweigh the idiot hound mixes in the house but you're also smarter than they are... She very easily accepted Shasta coming in when we visited in December but if she'd not had the stroke (she's partially paralyzed on half her face and moves a little slower on that side) and was still with us, once the puppy pass expired, we may have had to do some additional training. Though because Shasta is so laid back, I think it really would have boiled down to reminding Zena she doesnt make the decisions.


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## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

Hmmmm. That is interesting. Great question Emily! I would think it was more of teenage/ become more aware thing. Have you talked with your trainer? He didn't have this earlier on when he was younger on our hike? Very happy boy and friendly with the other dogs.

Or maybe he thinks he is "The Rock" big, beautiful, egotistical and conceited. Ready to go at a moments notice. 

Sorry just had to poke a little fun at it.....


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I think it's just him. We over analyze sometimes.

Jack is neutered but sounds just like him. He is fine with other dogs unless they get in his face or do the stare. 

I don't like people in my space or staring at me either.

It's much more so for certain dogs and we do own an aggressive, protective breed.

I also think people are blaming fear for too many things. Jack has never shown fear of any kind anywhere. I don't get the feeling he is afraid. He simply doesn't like dogs right up in his face or challenging him with the stare.

That is who he is and I don't see irt as a problem.

Jack is 5 so it's not a teenage thing.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Emoore said:


> I think he has an over-inflated sense of his own bada**ness.


:rofl: Quite possibly! Staring is a HUGE trigger, so that seems pretty typical of most dogs. And not liking other dogs in their space isn't really unusual either, so I don't know that I'd worry about it. 

It's funny, Keefer is the exact opposite, he's extremely friendly and social off leash and somewhat leash reactive. But it's mostly dogs at a distance that he'll bark at, either across the street or even walking by on the paved path by the lake. But up close and personal, he's fine - he's had many dogs rush right up and get in his face, and he'll sniff them and maybe give a little muzzle lick, and be totally cool, calm, and relaxed. So if he sees another dog and he CAN'T meet it, he's a butthead. But if he CAN meet it, he's as nice as pie. He's pretty much an oddball though, lol!


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## DanielleOttoMom (May 11, 2010)

It's ok Otto has the attitude of I'm so pretty look at me thing going for him. 

They are Macho Men! Lol sorry again just had throw that out there too!


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

I doubt it goes away either, though maturity may ease it a bit. Gabe is the same way (which is why he doesn't get to go on off leash hikes with anyone but his own pack). I can walk him through anything and it doesn't phase him unless his personal space is entered. It's probably a 10-12' radius and that deep dark growl comes out.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Too late to edit but wanted to add it is not your fault. I think it's genetics and he may just be a dominate boy.


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## Witz (Feb 28, 2011)

Emoore said:


> Nah, if he catches them looking, he'll look back right into their eyes. Definitely a challenging stare. If they won't drop their gaze he starts rumbling. If I catch him looking at another dog for more than a second or two I'll redirect him by getting him to watch me and then do the "sit-stand-down-sit-shake-stand-sit" routine to earn a reward.
> 
> I think he has an over-inflated sense of his own bada**ness.


My 13 month old has no problem with other dogs who generally present in a playful or neutral behavior. If another dog gives him any level of what I refer to as "stink eye" he immediately gets worked up and fast. There is a mix of tough guy and fear. I try to see it coming and if I don't and he starts to react, I immediately attempt to redirect and get him away. He may grow out of it or he may not. We will see, as all I care about is his ability to be within a reasonable distance of any dog and be OK with it.


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## Holmeshx2 (Apr 25, 2010)

I honestly thinks it's just personality. Jinx is miss happy go lucky and has no problem with dogs rushing for head on greetings however when other dogs get pushy and rude trying to "force" her to play all bets are off and she gets rather nasty. Lots of noise and teeth but doesn't actually BITE them but I still try to keep it from that point. She just hates the rudeness it's just her, not training, not socialization, nothing I really did it's just how she is. By the way when I say rude "forcing" her it's when the other dog is jumping all over her trying to engage play and if she's not in the mood she will walk away but if the other dog keeps head butting her and jumping over her trying to make her play she will make darn sure they KNOW she is not going to play and they need to back off so I'm just careful of her interactions and make sure to police the other dogs just as much as her. She's even fine if they are right next to her (within inches of her) so long as they aren't trying to force her to play.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

GSD07 said:


> I think it's his bloodlines plus his age. Definitely genetics, he will not be a dog social butterfly. I am also pretty sure that once he knows the dog, and knows means a walk or two, then he will be tolerating or even loving other dogs. I don't think neutering will change anything, just let him mature, work on 'leave it' , and avoid situations where he overreacts.


I agree. 

I think it's a not uncommon "feature" of the breed. They are not going to like strange dogs copping an attitude in their faces. 

As he matures, if his confidence continues to grow and he gets more experience with other dogs that turn out to be friendly, he may learn how to tell the other dog to back off without exacerbating the situation.

Neutering *may* help reduce some of the offense he takes from being stared at, but it's not going to go away.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Testosterone is involved in "challenging" behaviors so getting him neutered might help to some degree. But as others have said, the behavior is unlikely to go away completely.

I'd say it is a combination of genetics and hormones. Like your genetics say you can be anywhere from this aggressive to this aggressive, and being neutered (or not) can change where you fall on that axis. But it doesn't drop down to zero.

Samson does not display any behavior like this to other dogs, and he's intact. So in his case his genetics probably give very little leeway for this sort of behavior.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think it could go either way as he matures. genetics might make him a bit more suspicious and defensive. i would avoid stare downs, and if it happens mostly in class i would speak to the instructor about having other people being aware that their dogs are starring down as well so they can redirect and work with their own dogs. certain breeds tend to genetically stare down, like border collies, etc. starring is a threat to some dogs, or a challenge. 
i would work on keeping his attention on you while you are standing around in class, tug toy, food, obedience stuff etc.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think it definitely isn't fear based......remember dogs are still pack animals, and the old man is in his pack....other dogs are not. Sure some of this is genetics, some of this is German Shepherd....the breed wasn't meant to run and play in packs like hounds, although you have many today that will play with any other dog. I have had many dogs over the years that were not social with dogs outside their pack. Wasn't a problem, because I never let my grown dogs run around with other dogs outside their pack. Doubt if you will ever change this if he is really strong in this. Best narcotic dog we had in the military when I was there was NOTORIOUS for being dog aggressive....in fact he had a half of right ear as a result of his propensity to fight. Marvelous narcotic dog, and since we didn't have dogs playing dog park off leash....he had no problems and made contributions to society. 
One last thing, you could bring a puppy into you house and i sincerely doubt there would be an issue because he would know that the pup is part of the pack.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Witz said:


> My 13 month old has no problem with other dogs who generally present in a playful or neutral behavior. If another dog gives him any level of what I refer to as "stink eye" he immediately gets worked up and fast. There is a mix of tough guy and fear. I try to see it coming and if I don't and he starts to react, I immediately attempt to redirect and get him away. He may grow out of it or he may not. We will see, as all I care about is his ability to be within a reasonable distance of any dog and be OK with it.


This describes Benny almost to a tee,except as he has matured (will be three next month) it is no longer fear. He hates being given the stink eye, and gets very amped up. A strong "leave it", and "look at me" works. He is very good with dogs who come up to him playful, neutral pr submissive. He is definitely the "sheriff" of the pack at home, but as the other dogs respect him, it is no problem. He is very good with puppies. I think most GSDs are not dog park/social butterfly dogs and that is fine with me


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree with Cliff in this case i think it is some fear going on. although i also agree that some dogs just aren't playground material. 
i have a male that is fear based, i have done everything possible to try and get him to a better place. he is very suspicious, very defensive dispite all my efforts. i have had some awesome training help, and he is under very good control, but a strange dog in his face or a challenge stare would set him off. and it matters big time how i handle things.
i will say after some very careful couplings with friends and their non reactive dogs, he does have walking friends and occasional off leash friends. still have to remind him to behave off leash with his friends, but usually one reminder is all it takes. honestly i never thought he'd even be capable of that, but i also know him well, and would never put him in a position that he could not handle. i have learned to watch him closely, and i know the very first signal he gives.......i don't really care if he ever plays in a dog group, as long as he is under control and has a few confident dog friends to walk with. he is a working dog and thats what we do most of the time. although having confident non reative dogs helps him tremendously, and i think he's got a good balanced life. without expecting more of him than he can handle.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

cliffson1 said:


> I think it definitely isn't fear based......





debbiebrown said:


> i agree with Cliff in this case i think it is some fear going on.



:thinking: Huh?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

ha ha! thanks.................lol need my glasses........


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

Stosh is very much the same way at 2 yrs old. He loves to play with other dogs and has never been in a fight or even instigated one, but when another dog stares or barks first he gives it right back. He's not aggressive he just doesn't take any crap of anybody. When we're in class he wants to correct dogs that are misbehaving or even out of order in line in agility. He's definitely the sheriff, but he will also play very nicely with polite dogs. I think because he's usually the largest dog in most groups that he gets a lot of warning shots from the more fearful dogs


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Zefra who just turned 11 months old just started this behaviour, and to be honest, it took me by surprise.

Up until this point she was wither excited to meet a new dog (tail wagging, butt wiggles, ears back excited) or indifferent where she didn't even "see" them. 

Just the other day we were walking around this small tourist village and she started barking at this dog who gave her the stare down. I corrected her and told her to "leave it". She didn't do it for the rest of the day - even when we passed several dogs who were lunging and barking and growling at her. 

I have been very lenient with Zefra as far as obedience and manners because of the type of training program we are doing but now she is testing me. I have had to increase my obedience with her and be a bit firmer with her. She is a VERY dominant, high strung, high energy, HARD dog with a bit of an attitude if she doesn't get her way, so now I must step into that role more than ever as leader and start really "locking down" on my commands/training with her.

I think it's maturity. I really do.


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