# Overly submissive dog attracting bullies?



## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Hello world,

My dog has been attacked THREE times now during the 2 months that i have had her..........

So this thread might be where things started...:http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/puppy-behavior/666458-ptsd-aggressive-dog-puppy.html and it is the first time.

The second time was in a puppy class. In the puppy socialization classes, there are generally a play time where puppies play with each other after training. My pup usually plays the role of being chased in the dog chase game despite her being one of the biggest dogs in her puppy class. However, roughly 1.5 weeks ago, a smaller puppy decides to bite her muzzle while she is being chased, my pup whined and ran towards me but she did not dare to look back nor bite back. That puppy was much smaller than my puppy, and he did not have any problems with any other puppy. The instructor quickly intervened, and my pup continued to whine and cuddle with me for 1 min and then return to play, while the other pup got taken out. After that incident, she sometimes whine while being chased, but nothing alarming so I did not pay attention.

Third time is the worst yestarday...My pup is 4months old now, and yesterday was the first time that I took her to our local dog park's big playground area where there are ~20 dogs. It was because she was sick before yesterday and had to be stuck at home, eating sensitive stomach meals, so I kinda tried to celebrate her recovery by taking her there.

It was terrible. Right after we entered the playground from the off-leash trails, my pup happily walked up to the group of dogs who were playing, but then a yorkshire terrier ran out from the group and bit my dog's furs near her stomach (I am convinced she was aiming for throat but my dog was too high for her), that dog won't let go and my dog frantically ran and shaked and howled. That dog got shaken off by my dog's movement but they were surrounded by a group of dogs who gathered around so my dog could not escape, and that yorkshire terrier bit my dog's leg's furs again and of course he refused to let go despite his owner screaming at him!!! My dog was whining and trying to get towards me through the dogs like crazy, luckily those owners called away their dogs who were surrounding the scene and I got to my dog while the other owner got to her dog, and she successfully called her yorkshire terrier away as she got close enough. There was only a little blood thanks to GSDs' tough double coat, and needless to say I immediately took her home after she stopped whining. However, as I walked away from the playground area, I noticed that dog who attacked mine play with all other dogs again without any problems.

On the way out of the dog park, my dog would excitedly ran towards a dog when she saw it, but immediately changed her direction back to me after like 3 seconds (and she would try to sit on my foot), and if the other dog chased her thinking she initiated play, she would gave out this big scream and lay on the ground, tails ducked and exposing her belly despite the other dog only meant to play and she was the one who started it.

I only posted this now because I sprayed my ankle when my dog suddenly changed direction, bumped into me, and sat on my foot, I ended up tripping over my dog and had to go to a doctor at 6pm. So i am the one who end up getting physically hurt the most in this incident...lol

Anyway any ideas how to deal with this situation? I suspect my dog gave out a submissive aura or something and all other dogs sensed it, I mean a 10 pounds dog can feel safe bullying her, she must rank really low in the dog's world. I don't plan on making her a protection dog so that is not a problem, but I would want her to interact peacefully with other dogs off-leash as there are huge off-leash areas near my home and my dog and I really enjoy our time there. So how not to make her a target to other dogs? And how to make her stop running to strange dogs but then immediately running back, scaring the heck out of herself?

Thanks,
J


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## Freyja (May 24, 2016)

You will find a tonne of people here who are against dog parks, which I am now partially included in, so be prepared for the "NO DOG PARKS" comments. Perhaps the most beneficial thing we did for Rollo after he was attacked at a dog park, was visiting our local oval where a group of 7-8 dogs are taken in the morning and afternoon. Every dog is sociable, with a healthy mixture of energetic/chill pups, so it has been fantastic for us and Rollo's perception of other dogs. Would there be a group like this you could join?

Enrol you puppy into obedience classes, where you'll be by your dog the entire time so she feels safe, but also understanding that dogs will not always run at her and become a threat - ours has supervised 'free for all' after class. The best way to avoid her from running up to dogs/running back is essentially teaching her not to run up to strange dogs full stop. You never know how another dog will react to her running up, and as she grows you'll notice owners also don't appreciate a large dog like a GSD sprinting towards their doggie, so now is a good time to teach it. Her behaviour is still 'puppified', so don't stress too much about her running back to you for protection, she's a baby and is unsure how to speak complete doggie, so she looks for you for guidance.

Also be wary of too much off-leash play: we used to take Rollo to the dog park ALL the time, and basically over-socialised him in an off-lead setting, so now he acts like a bit of a spazz when he is on leash... He get's way too excited when he spots another dog because that means PLAY!

Hope this helps a tiny bit? I feel like I rambled a bit


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Stay out of dog parks!!!! Not only does it recreate the possibility of what happened in puppy class if you let your dog run.....but more important you CANT control the actions of the other dogs and most people in dog parks can't control the actions of their dogs when off leash.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If it were me I would stop all contact with other dogs immediately, maybe join a well run class so your pup can become accustomed to being near other dogs that are on leash and under control. Try reintroducing to known reliable older, calm, dogs down the road when your pup has had a chance to calm down a little from this.

I have seen these attacks occur in clusters, it happened that way to my female gsd....made the mistake of walking her at a communal trail walking place when she was young. After the first the nasty dogs do seem to sense the fear and target that same dog over and over. 

My pup has never been loose in an offleash dog area except once or twice when it was empty and I went in to throw is ball and then got out before anyone else showed up.

He has been slightly ambushed once or twice by leashed or unleashed dogs and there has been a growl or two....those situations were relatively easy to shut down because it wasn't an offleash free for all but when wires get crossed in a big playgroup it can go south in a hurry. He has met on leash and played offleash with a very carefully selected few dogs besides my own other dogs...


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I don't plan on making her a protection dog so that is not a problem, but I would want her to interact peacefully with other dogs off-leash as there are huge off-leash areas near my home and my dog and I really enjoy our time there. So how not to make her a target to other dogs?


If she was my pup, I'd change those interactions to on leash and no contact for now and then later on be selective about which dogs she has any contact with. I don't think she's enjoying it so much as just trying to find out how to avoid getting picked on, even when those puppy play urges come on with her.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

If your puppy is being attacked in puppy classes, you may want to rethink taking your puppy there.


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## armbrusteri (Jul 16, 2016)

Welcome to raising a puppy in a high density city with a bunch of ignorant dog owners! Isn't it fun?

I raised my GSD mix in Toronto (we moved when she was just over a year old). I ended up avoiding all of the fenced in dog parks - generally the people who go to those parks use them because their dogs have poor recall, not the kind of dogs you want to expose your puppy to, and not the kind of owners you can count on to prevent things from happening (there are exceptions but in my experience, it wasn't worth it). There are plenty of off-leash areas that are larger and have lower dog density. We spent most of our time in ravines, on trails, on the beach, and found a couple spots where bylaw wouldn't enforce leash rules; most of our dog interactions were of the "sniff and move on" variety or involved walking and exploring together. We'd do supervised play with dogs that we knew (met them on walks and the dogs got along well) but usually one-on-one or small groups. I find that a lot of problems in dog parks are because the owners stand around expecting the dogs to entertain each other and because there's a lot of dogs confined in a small space.

It doesn't sound like your dog is provoking these attacks, just that she's a puppy and she's a new dog. She might be a little sensitive and/or fearful now due to how many times she's been attacked but if a dog is attacking her because of that, that's the other dog's owner failing, not you. You cannot make a dog impervious to attack. Your best bet is to avoid situations where she might be attacked, build her confidence around other dogs in a controlled setting (obedience classes are better than puppy play time classes), and find other ways to enjoy your dog. There are plenty of other things you can do, especially since you can take dogs on the TTC at non-peak hours so you can travel fairly easily with them.

Sometimes we have to change our plans based on the dogs we have, or based on the reality of the spaces we planned to use. It sucks at first but it's worth it to keep the dog safe. I was really annoyed when I first decided to cut out fenced in dog parks but then I started to really enjoy our off-leash hikes and her engagement is so much better now.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Fearful dogs and pups tend to trigger prey drive in dogs and the worst place for that is a dog park. Your pup has a good chance of becoming dog reactive/aggressive as she gets older due to these encounters. As others have said, you have to immediately stop these risks and take her to a sensible trainer where they don't let puppies run loose. She needs lots of exposure (without interaction) with other dogs while associating them with the good stuff, like treats, play, toys and praise while you continue breathing and remaining relaxed (do not tighten the leash)


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Hey thanks for the replies,

Today is not too good, I can not walk my dog due to my sprayed ankle, and I sat in front of our building outside on the grass with my dog for 10min during our regular walk time. My dog did not greet other dogs who passed by well, she initially wagged her tails wanting to approach those dogs, but as soon as the other dog noticed her enthusiasm and pulled to get to her, she got terrified and tried to squeeze herself onto my lap. Her bleeding stopped and blood clot formed properly without signs of infection though.

I agree with all of you that she should avoid group off-leash play with dogs for now. But I really hope she can build up her confidence and interact with strange dogs fine off-leash in the future because there is a huge park near my place where there is a many kilometers of off-leash trails (in fact, most trails in that park are off-leash). Running with my dog off-leash in that park daily has always been my dream, and I can tell my dog enjoys running off-leash as well.

And another question btw, do you guys think I should encourage my dogs to bite back her bullies? Or at least snarl at them? I really feel my dog needs to learn some self-defense. I am sure if she growled at the yorkshire terrier instead of whining, that dog would give up way before his owner got to her. Her reactions of only whining, crying and running to me are not exactly going to help her if she ever gets attacked by a larger dog in the future. I plan on taking her to hikes and travels and parks, and it is not worth giving up all the fun we could have there just because of fearing her getting attacked. I mean, when I bought my dog, I did not plan on only taking her to leashed walks and watching tv with her, I was looking forward to take her into the wilderness. Should I train her on some fighting skills? Is it possible to train a dog to fight back when attacked but do not attack when the other dog is friendly?



Freyja said:


> You will find a tonne of people here who are against dog parks, which I am now partially included in, so be prepared for the "NO DOG PARKS" comments. Perhaps the most beneficial thing we did for Rollo after he was attacked at a dog park, was visiting our local oval where a group of 7-8 dogs are taken in the morning and afternoon. Every dog is sociable, with a healthy mixture of energetic/chill pups, so it has been fantastic for us and Rollo's perception of other dogs. Would there be a group like this you could join?
> 
> Enrol you puppy into obedience classes, where you'll be by your dog the entire time so she feels safe, but also understanding that dogs will not always run at her and become a threat - ours has supervised 'free for all' after class. The best way to avoid her from running up to dogs/running back is essentially teaching her not to run up to strange dogs full stop. You never know how another dog will react to her running up, and as she grows you'll notice owners also don't appreciate a large dog like a GSD sprinting towards their doggie, so now is a good time to teach it. Her behaviour is still 'puppified', so don't stress too much about her running back to you for protection, she's a baby and is unsure how to speak complete doggie, so she looks for you for guidance.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. No there are no such dog clubs near me unfortunately, and yeah she is currently in an obedience class where every dog is on leash and there are only 4 dogs in one class. I don't know how to train her to not run to dogs though, she gets very excited when she first sees them and my commands don't work.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> If your puppy is being attacked in puppy classes, you may want to rethink taking your puppy there.


Yeah, she finished her puppy program and is now in obedience classes where every dog is on leash and there are only 4 dogs in total. What bothers me is that every other dog in puppy class seems to do fine, and my dog's incident is the only one I have witnessed during all my time at the training school.



armbrusteri said:


> Welcome to raising a puppy in a high density city with a bunch of ignorant dog owners! Isn't it fun?
> 
> I raised my GSD mix in Toronto (we moved when she was just over a year old). I ended up avoiding all of the fenced in dog parks - generally the people who go to those parks use them because their dogs have poor recall, not the kind of dogs you want to expose your puppy to, and not the kind of owners you can count on to prevent things from happening (there are exceptions but in my experience, it wasn't worth it). There are plenty of off-leash areas that are larger and have lower dog density. We spent most of our time in ravines, on trails, on the beach, and found a couple spots where bylaw wouldn't enforce leash rules; most of our dog interactions were of the "sniff and move on" variety or involved walking and exploring together. We'd do supervised play with dogs that we knew (met them on walks and the dogs got along well) but usually one-on-one or small groups. I find that a lot of problems in dog parks are because the owners stand around expecting the dogs to entertain each other and because there's a lot of dogs confined in a small space.
> 
> It doesn't sound like your dog is provoking these attacks, just that she's a puppy and she's a new dog. She might be a little sensitive and/or fearful now due to how many times she's been attacked but if a dog is attacking her because of that, that's the other dog's owner failing, not you. You cannot make a dog impervious to attack. Your best bet is to avoid situations where she might be attacked, build her confidence around other dogs in a controlled setting (obedience classes are better than puppy play time classes), and find other ways to enjoy your dog. There are plenty of other things you can do, especially since you can take dogs on the TTC at non-peak hours so you can travel fairly easily with them.


Hey there, do you mind sharing the quieter off-leash areas that you took your dogs to in Toronto? All the ones I know of are very crowded and my dog gets overly excited. I am not sure how to build up her confidence around dogs though, should I try to make her more dominant by letting her eat first etc so that other dogs would not dare to bother her again?



wolfy dog said:


> Fearful dogs and pups tend to trigger prey drive in dogs and the worst place for that is a dog park. Your pup has a good chance of becoming dog reactive/aggressive as she gets older due to these encounters. As others have said, you have to immediately stop these risks and take her to a sensible trainer where they don't let puppies run loose. She needs lots of exposure (without interaction) with other dogs while associating them with the good stuff, like treats, play, toys and praise while you continue breathing and remaining relaxed (do not tighten the leash)


Yeah now you mentioned it, I remember the owner of that yorkshire terrier saying to me "he does not like puppies". She now does two things when seeing another dog, she pulls to get to them but immediately runs back to me looking scared and sometimes whining when the other dog actually approaches her. I suspect petting her after that only encourages her to run away and come to me during a dog-dog encounter, so I don't think I should reward that?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I definitely would not be thinking of trying to teach or encourage your puppy to be aggressive or fight bullies. 

Work on making yourself more exciting and interesting to the puppy so you have something valuable to reward the puppy when she ignores other dogs.

Forget trying to make her more dominant and focus on protecting her by carefully choosing how she encounters other dogs and what other dogs she encounteres. If it scares her to greet strange dogs on leash, stop letting her do it. She still has injuries from this yapper dog that bit her? Give her a chance to calm down and bond with you and see you as a leadwr who will keep her safe, even from her own puppyish decisions which may not be the best thing for her. How old is she again?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Well ... you got "screwed" at whatever "puppy training" class that is your attending?? Beyond that ... your kinda going out of your way to put your puppy in "harms" way.

Essentially your a victim of "I thought my dog was friendly people??" Some of them have no idea and others "know" the answer is "NO" and they just don't care! There dog's behavior is not there problem, it's your problem. You can find all of them at any given "Dog Park." There are three dogs that "Should Not Be At A Dog Park." If you did not have one ... you do now.

I had one "Dominate Male" American Band Dawg. I did not quite understand what his other dog deal was at the time??? But I did understand that he had an issue. And it seemed to me that going to a "Dog Park" with him ... was not a great idea?? In San Jose in they year "2000" there were lots of "Band Dawgs" out there and I had no interest in "breaking up a "Dog Fight" so I choose to "avoid" other dogs and strive for "Dog Neutral." Worked out fine ... I don't do Dog Parks, I don't do "Dog on the Street" meet ups.

You keep your distance, I'll keep mine ... works out fine. The dogs yor "thinking you'll meet are most likely ones like my "Boxer" a "balanced Dog" but you would not find my "Boxer" in a "Dog Park." 

Got more ... but so as to not be to wordy ... you'll find a few interesting articles here. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/5296377-post8.html

You've not done anything that cannot be undone but it would be best to change your approach in regards "unknown dogs."


Welcome Aboard.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> Running with my dog off-leash in that park daily has always been my dream, and I can tell my dog enjoys running off-leash as well.
> 
> Sounds like your puppy is right on target for being your dream dog.
> 
> ...


So what did you say to the owner of this puppy aggressive dog? Did you insist that they keep their puppy aggressive dog away from your puppy?


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I think 4 mos is too young to be taken to a dog park. Too many negative things can happen that will shape the dogs future. 
An amazing trainer told me that they see no benefit with group classes. One on one is good. 
Don't train a fearful dog to "fight back". This is not a good idea on so many levels. Teaching a dog to fight when afraid will result in another dog being bitten, or human being bitten when it is unwarranted. 
Train your dog to find you as its playmate. Build confidence in her. She will only need her owner. Not "friends".


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Hey again thanks for the replies!

It seems the consensus is that she should not learn how to fight back. I guess that is ok because I do not really look forward to train a dog to bite anyway. She is 4 months old and I agree she is a baby, but I really don't think it is her age that is the reason, I suspect it is her personality. No other puppy in training school seems to have the same problems, and she is always the one who plays the more submissive role during dog plays regardless the size/age of her playmates, but she enjoys the play time with dogs a lot normally despite playing submissive.

I understand I should be the leader and protect her, but honestly I don't think I CAN protect her if a dog decides to fight her. I can't even do a proper push-up lol, and the only sports I am good at is distance running. She has a far better chance protecting herself while I call for help if a dog decides to seriously attack her, but I guess the best bet I have now to is to try to train her to stay away from strange dogs. This is sad though, considering how much she likes to play with friendly dogs before.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> I definitely would not be thinking of trying to teach or encourage your puppy to be aggressive or fight bullies.
> 
> Work on making yourself more exciting and interesting to the puppy so you have something valuable to reward the puppy when she ignores other dogs.
> 
> Forget trying to make her more dominant and focus on protecting her by carefully choosing how she encounters other dogs and what other dogs she encounteres. If it scares her to greet strange dogs on leash, stop letting her do it. She still has injuries from this yapper dog that bit her? Give her a chance to calm down and bond with you and see you as a leadwr who will keep her safe, even from her own puppyish decisions which may not be the best thing for her. How old is she again?


I agree that I should try to control what dogs she gets to meet, but it is almost impossible for me to do that unless she is strictly on leash all the time, which is not what I have planned to do with her for the next 15 years. So I am really hoping that I can train her to stay away from dogs off-leash.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> So what did you say to the owner of this puppy aggressive dog? Did you insist that they keep their puppy aggressive dog away from your puppy?


That dog bit my dog after we just entered the playground and I did not interact with his owner beforehand. The owner said it to me after my dog was bitten, I didn't say anything, busy comforting my dog. I thought GSDs are suitable for my needs tho, after all the breed is supposed to be brave, protective, and confident. I do agree that I have not done enough research on the breeder, as I don't think my dog meets the breed standards on the confidence, protection parts. I have met other GSDs in the neighbourhood, and I can tell my pup is way more submissive/timid than them. Regardless, we have a pretty good bond in 2 months, and I don't plan on rehoming her. 



cloudpump said:


> I think 4 mos is too young to be taken to a dog park. Too many negative things can happen that will shape the dogs future.
> An amazing trainer told me that they see no benefit with group classes. One on one is good.
> Don't train a fearful dog to "fight back". This is not a good idea on so many levels. Teaching a dog to fight when afraid will result in another dog being bitten, or human being bitten when it is unwarranted.
> Train your dog to find you as its playmate. Build confidence in her. She will only need her owner. Not "friends".


I agree that she should see me as more important than her dog friends, but she really does enjoy playing with other dogs normally, and I have always thought it is cruel to not let dogs interact with other dogs, but I will definitely re-consider about that.


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## Aristo (Jul 23, 2016)

My dog was similar in temperament to yours not quite as submissive but no fighter. One day she walked by another gsd with a ball who had toy aggression 20 stitches and $800 later no more dog parks.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Let me put it to you this way: if you keep letting this puppy have bad and traumatic experiences she willl probably grow up with lasting social problems thst make it impossible for you to exercise her around other dogs and what you said will be true about keeping her on a leash for the next 15 years.

If you step up now and keep her safe she can recover she may very well grow up to be a well balanced adult who can be around other dogs and do the things you want to do with her. If you eed to keep her on a leash to keep her safe then please do. If you can't physically intervene then get some tools like spray shield.

She is a baby. You want her to be brave, protectivs and confident. No German Shepherd puppy is protective. I can't imagine any puppy of any confidence level not being shook up over the amount of scary dog interactions this one has had.

Would you take a toddler to an 8th grade playground with a bunch of strange older kids and say good luck? Would you let your 8th grade daughter go to a high school bonfire party with a keg? 

Nowhere in nature that I know of is it safe and normal for a baby to interact with dozens if stranger adults without the protection of a parent, and your puppy has been without any protection up until now.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

" So, I really hope I can train her to stay away from dogs off leash".....smh, you can never " train" your dogs to stay away from dogs off leash if your dog is off leash also. When you are in proximity of dogs off leash, you have to manage your dog and the environment, which requires your dog to be ON leash. And that is not always foolproof, but fairly reliable. 
When dogs are having "fun" with other dogs outside their pack, it only takes a spark( like a stick or toy or object) to trigger immediate aggression from one dog to another....you can never control this element if they are off leash....people are giving you good advice, that they have learned the hard way in some cases, don't let your feelings rationalize it away. Save your dog the experience!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

10 lbs dogs under trult are unaware of their size And many seem crazy. I think I come across many many raging Yorkies-lol. I don't know what it is. 
I'm surprised they have a little dog in their with the big guys. A puppy does not belong in their with the big boys- easy pickings. You have to make sure your pup has good interactions with other dogs there really is no way of assuring that unless both dogs are leashed under control and focusing on their owners-this is the safest setting for your pup. Forget the dog parks it will only traumatize your pup.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> No other puppy in training school seems to have the same problems, and she is always the one who plays the more submissive role during dog plays regardless the size/age of her playmates, but she enjoys the play time with dogs a lot normally despite playing submissive.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this. I take my dogs running off leash as well. It is the combative dogs that need to be leashed and monitored or even left at home, not the easier going dogs.
> 
> ...


Baby dogs aren't supposed to be protective. IF it comes, it will come with maturity. Search threads on here about will an untrained dog protect. Regardless, I am not aware of any protection training that encompasses fighting other dogs. Even if your dog was old enough to be protective, there was no real threat. Many adult GSDs would not have fought a Toy breed or fight over frivolous matters. You might also want to research dog aggression and reactivity on here. It might give you a new appreciation of your non combative puppy.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Mine are working line brings up a good point. It makes me think is why maybe those little guys do cause such s ruckus they know they can away with it. Not all little dogs either we have a chihuahua who is lot like that. He does though know how to lay down the law. I think you have the roles mixed up here. You are suppose to protect your pup from harms way this gives your dog confidence in you and strengthens your bond together and this allows your pup's confidence to grow.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Stay away from strange dogs. Your pup doesn't need other dogs to have a full filled life. Maybe a few good doggy friends is all; dogs that you know well, are sane and social, hopefully like their owners as well. 
Read up on behavior and dynamics of the dog world.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

Dogs do not have like us, humans, this tender loving attitude towards babies and all the young. They recognize a dog in a puppy, who is weaker, less experienced and has bad manners, and they will punish unapropriated behavior without hesitation: too bad for bold and playful puppies! Though the puppies run to them to get that what they missed with taking them away from their sisters and brothers - socialization skills. In nature their mother will guard them and protect them sometimes up to 1 year old, sometimes even when she has the next litter. So, no other dogs, puppies only before your puppy is 6 months old.I
If your dog would never meet other dogs in her life - she would miss nothing. Then, you don't have much time to put foundation for the future, first 6 months are called "a critical period". Show her new places, train new commands, play new games instead of taking her to doggy parks! Many dogs would never come there themselves anyway, that is their owners drag them there on a leash, no wonder why they are fighting. I knew a dog who was starting a fight for a purpose, he learned that his owner leaves the area when fight starts every time and decided to initiate it every time he wanted to be away from other dogs. I asked the owner, whether he goes home to feed him. That one answered:"No! He wants to play ball with me!"


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jenny720 said:


> Mine are working line brings up a good point. It makes me think is why maybe those little guys do cause such s ruckus they know they can away with it. Not all little dogs either we have a chihuahua who is lot like that. He does though know how to lay down the law. I think you have the roles mixed up here. You are suppose to protect your pup from harms way this gives your dog confidence in you and strengthens your bond together and this allows your pup's confidence to grow.


They are allowed to get away with it.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I dropped out of puppy class. My male dog at age 4 months was almost attacked by a Pitt bill puppy, same age, and they told me mine was too aggressive. I hate puppy playtime in those on leash classes. Your dog needs to be protected now or she could grow up to to be DA.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

This kind of makes me sad because my puppy was so much like this when he was a baby but we had a great experience at puppy class. Ths teacher said at the get go that she was really careful about who played with who and how many puppies were ever loose together at the same time, she also had an assistant helping her run the class. Our class started with only 2 puppies loose at a time and I don't think there were ever more than 3 and she hand picked who played with who. My kid was the biggest puppy but the most timid to start. He totally came out of his shell in that puppy class and continued to gain confidence ever since. Loose puppies was like 1 percent of the class, too. I wish OP's puppy had had a class like that. I feel like it was valuable to him because he saw all shapes and sizes and types including one that looked like a little mop.

He is a year and a half now and totally fine with other social dogs


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

It does suck that this puppy had a rough start but it's nothing that can't be "fixed" with a change in behaviour and expectations by the owner.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

LuvShepherds said:


> They are allowed to get away with it.


This is so very sadly true. As a breeder and shower of a toy breed I see people I know laugh when their dogs bark and act vicious to larger breed dogs. It can be hard enough some days to walk through a dog show with a toy breed, I've had mine attacked by a boxer and an English Bulldog. I never realized how high a bulldog can jump, but he hit me between my shoulder blades. Luckily both times I was able to spin my dog in my arms away from them and give the dogs my back instead of my dog. But whether it was just the bad behavior on the part of the dog or because the dog had had enough small dogs taunt him, who knows. Owners of toy breeds have a responsibility to expect and make their dogs to behave.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> This is so very sadly true. As a breeder and shower of a toy breed I see people I know laugh when their dogs bark and act vicious to larger breed dogs. It can be hard enough some days to walk through a dog show with a toy breed, I've had mine attacked by a boxer and an English Bulldog. I never realized how high a bulldog can jump, but he hit me between my shoulder blades. Luckily both times I was able to spin my dog in my arms away from them and give the dogs my back instead of my dog. But whether it was just the bad behavior on the part of the dog or because the dog had had enough small dogs taunt him, who knows. Owners of toy breeds have a responsibility to expect and make their dogs to behave.


A "Boxer!!!" uh oh ... as a primarily a Boxer guy .... yet again ... we are sorry that happened!:

That is not our thing ... our bad.










But back on point and yet again ... the owner and there expectations is the root of the problem. At my high point I walked an American Band Dawg, OS WL GSD and a Boxer at the same time and if a stray came at us??? My dogs were "expected" and trained to do "Nothing!!" 

Keeping dogs out of there face was my job and I was good at my job! Thus far in 13 attempts ... no dog has gotten past me! But ... I don't go out of my way to put my dogs in bad positions! "I don't know you I don't know your dog ... keep your distance and I'll do the same!" Is how we roll. Works out fine ... I'll add for the most part ... that seems to be a "West Coast" attitude?? On the rare occasion I actually see people walking well trained dog ... neither of us have any interest in "Is your dog friendly encounters??" 

We smile and past ... most likely that translates to "happy your dog is not an B-H?? But you know ... the "West Coast" land of "high Fences" make good neighbors.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

I have to say I'm stunned that a English Bull Dog could hit you between the shoulder blades are you really short?? 

But that aside for whatever reason ... Bulldogs seem to be really good at "Skateboarding and Surfing??" Kinda odd ... more to them then it would seem ... but I'm pretty sure they would "suck" at chasing Jack Rabbits across the desert ... Boxer thing.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Hey, thanks for the overwhelming replies! When I got the email, I was shocked there were so many people wanting to help

Anyway, it seems the consensus is that she should be on leash and avoid off-leash areas for now until she is older. I totally agree with that, but I need to admit I really want her to be fine off-leash with other dogs some day (again the thought of her running off leash with me in that huge off-leash park 5min walking distance to my place is just too much to suppress for 15 years). A question though, how old do you define as old enough for being off-leash with other adult dogs? 

Another thing, I am considering hiring another trainer/training school to help me with my pup's training. The issues I want to work on are 1) her highly excited but submissive state with other dogs (I think this is what attracts the annoyance of other adult dogs) 2) her jumping on me and other humans (I correct her everytime, so my friends, but she still does it a lot) 3) her barking for attention when I talk with other people and no one pays her attention or when a friend comes over but does not pet her 4) she barks like crazy when I tie her outside of a tim horton for 3min (I never go in when there is a huge line when my dog is with me). I still have 4 group obedience classes left where all dogs are on leash with my current training school, but I am thinking of switching to another school/trainer. Do you guys recommend a private one-one trainer or another group class thing? And do you have any recommendations near Toronto downtown west area (if you know where that is)?

And yet another thing, do you think it is a good idea to walk her on leash in the dog park or should I avoid places where there are lots of dogs all together (which is hard in my area)?

And finally I have to admit I need to change my expectations as they are interfering. I was expecting a confident, calm, and formidable GSD, and her easy-going, super excitable, and submissive personality took me by surprise. I really like her now and I will definitely work on changing my expectations/plans, but next time I buy I dog I sure will remember to do my research on the breeder and the parents of the pup.



Aristo said:


> My dog was similar in temperament to yours not quite as submissive but no fighter. One day she walked by another gsd with a ball who had toy aggression 20 stitches and $800 later no more dog parks.


Wow, best of luck to your dog, I am sorry that happened to your dog. That is exactly what I am afraid of, I am lucky that all aggressive dogs we have met are either small breeds or is wearing a muzzle. By the way, do you mind sharing how long it took your dog to recover psychologically?

Thanks!



Thecowboysgirl said:


> If you can't physically intervene then get some tools like spray shield.
> 
> She is a baby. You want her to be brave, protectivs and confident. No German Shepherd puppy is protective. I can't imagine any puppy of any confidence level not being shook up over the amount of scary dog interactions this one has had.


Hey thanks, I didn't know spray shield existed... My family had our first dog when we were in downtown Beijing, and no large breed was allowed there so we never needed to worry our dog getting seriously injured, though we could not have the luxury of owning a large breed either.

I don't plan on using my dog for protection, but I do expect her to be brave and confident as those qualities are what got me attracted to this breed. My pup is definitely on the very submissive side even among puppies, but like you said maybe she will grow out more confident if I protect her better in the future. I will definitely work on that.



MineAreWorkingline said:


> Baby dogs aren't supposed to be protective. IF it comes, it will come with maturity. Search threads on here about will an untrained dog protect. Regardless, I am not aware of any protection training that encompasses fighting other dogs. Even if your dog was old enough to be protective, there was no real threat. Many adult GSDs would not have fought a Toy breed or fight over frivolous matters. You might also want to research dog aggression and reactivity on here. It might give you a new appreciation of your non combative puppy.


Haha I actually read lots of threads here on aggression and reactivity before I got a pup as I thought that was the problems I could run into instead of this. In fact that was why I enrolled her in puppy classes --- I was afraid I need to deal with her fighting other dogs when she gets older. I definitely feel lucky that she is not aggressive though, it is just her personality comes at a surprise. She is definitely on the very submissive side (as observed from her interactions with other puppies her age), but as you have said, most of it is probably because she is a baby. I will definitely work on avoiding similar stressful situations for her so hopefully she grows up more confident



Thecowboysgirl said:


> This kind of makes me sad because my puppy was so much like this when he was a baby but we had a great experience at puppy class. Ths teacher said at the get go that she was really careful about who played with who and how many puppies were ever loose together at the same time, she also had an assistant helping her run the class. Our class started with only 2 puppies loose at a time and I don't think there were ever more than 3 and she hand picked who played with who. My kid was the biggest puppy but the most timid to start. He totally came out of his shell in that puppy class and continued to gain confidence ever since. Loose puppies was like 1 percent of the class, too. I wish OP's puppy had had a class like that. I feel like it was valuable to him because he saw all shapes and sizes and types including one that looked like a little mop.
> 
> He is a year and a half now and totally fine with other social dogs


Awhhh, your puppy class sounds amazing. Our class has 5 puppies running loose each time, and one or two of them sometimes make me think that their owners take them there because they have already displayed some aggression issues.


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## WembleyDogsUK (Jul 13, 2016)

> I was expecting a confident, calm, and formidable GS


Where confidence can come from if you constantly put her on trial with other dogs? Confidence comes with a greater muscle weight, when dog feels his power and vigour running and jumping, swimming and crawling. I wonder - when you are training her if you are walking around doggy parks worried about socialization? One hour your instructor explains - you should train your dog including new and repeating as much as she learned so far the whole week. Forget about people in your doggy park, you will have plenty of it in the nearest future. GSD is a working breed, your dog needs occupation, she needs to experience success repeatedly - another source of confidence. If she doesn't run to other dogs - don't leash her. The only reason why people start to think that they bought a wrong thing is - because they dyed, shortened and washed it with Domestos to such extent that it become unrepairable. That is only a saying "bold and confident", in reality dog's psychology is a very delicate thing.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

JunYue I think your chances are good of her growing up just fine if you really get proactive now. 

A private trainer is probably a good idea if the focus is engagement with you in the presence of reliable under control other dogs. I really wouldn't worry about focusing on changing your puppy's approach toward other dogs, she is a baby and is going to change radically month by month as she grows with no interference by you. I would just focus on teaching her to keep her focus on you, get all her play needs met by you, and be able to do all that and recalls ect in the oresence of other dogs because in order for her to have a safe and happy life in these offleash (LATER!! :smile2: you need to have good control of her no matter what else is going on.

As for walking her on leash in these dog areas, can you avoid other dogs? If they are running up to her and frightening her then it will hurt not help the cause. You need to be able to get her to stay behind you while you head off the other dog and do all that without her being very frightened. I know you want her to be fine running offleash with dogs when she is an adult, just remember that the best way to achieve that is by diligently protecting her and changing her experiences now.

Spray Shield is good because if you use it you can just call out to the other dog's owner that it is only citronella and their dog is fine (and you probably should because they might think it is pepper spray)

Here is anaother way a trainer could be helpful, practicing scenarios like this: say trainer has a demo dog or the like that can be loose around your puppy without approaching her. You have your puppy on a long line, practice recalling in the presence if a "loose" dog. Get your puppy in close and under control so trainer and other dog can pass by (with no contact between dogs), that is the kind of training that could prepare you guys for your future life although there would probably be some groundwork necessary before doing an exercise like that.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

WembleyDogsUK said:


> Confidence comes with a greater muscle weight, when dog feels his power and vigour running and jumping, swimming and crawling.


can you explain this in further detail?

so the bigger the dog is, the more confidence it becomes? but i've seen smaller dogs that were able to assert more dominance, or is that a misconception on my part?

so if you were to let the dog exercise and let him feel his own power by running fast, or jumping high, chasing fast things like thrown balls or frisbees, then it's gonna build its confidence?


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

as for the OP, i'm sorry about what your dog had to go through

unfortunate since he seemed like a very playful dog based on your prior posts

i've heard about the negative things about dog parts even before i got my dog so i never really even thought about taking my dog to a dog park


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> I have to say I'm stunned that a English Bull Dog could hit you between the shoulder blades are you really short??
> 
> But that aside for whatever reason ... Bulldogs seem to be really good at "Skateboarding and Surfing??" Kinda odd ... more to them then it would seem ... but I'm pretty sure they would "suck" at chasing Jack Rabbits across the desert ... Boxer thing.



I'm not short at all! But I am vertically challenged. 5' *G*


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

I think what TheCowboysGirl has said would be what I would be doing in your place. I'm sorry to hear of the experiences of your puppy. I, too, would avoid dog parks. There is on one Post here, but I couldn't tell you where, I have no desire to take my dog there. Most of the owners go and just turn their dogs loose. They have no control over their dogs, the dogs are not trained and it's just not a safe place. Especially for a puppy. Do keep us updated as you work with him!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> I'm not short at all! But I am vertically challenged. 5' *G*


 Yeah I was just being me. But honestly .. I have never seen a "Bull Dog" jump??? 
Most of them are lucky they can walk.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Chip18 said:


> Yeah I was just being me. But honestly .. I have never seen a "Bull Dog" jump???
> Most of them are lucky they can walk.


LOL, I know. I was shocked it could jump so high. I was standing in front of a table in line about to make entries for a match. It shoved me into the table and moved the table back almost a foot into the two ladies sitting behind it. The bulldog and owner were made to leave. The guy said he brought it to the Match to help it get over being dog aggressive. Really??!!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Pan_GSD said:


> can you explain this in further detail?
> 
> so the bigger the dog is, the more confidence it becomes? but i've seen smaller dogs that were able to assert more dominance, or is that a misconception on my part?
> 
> so if you were to let the dog exercise and let him feel his own power by running fast, or jumping high, chasing fast things like thrown balls or frisbees, then it's gonna build its confidence?


Do you really want him to explain it in more detail?? 

Most likely ... nearly everyone here has had there (untrained/fleix/leashed/poor attitude) small dog encounter?? Most of them are not big on backing down ... a much larger dog does not mean crap to them, no lack of confidence there. 

In fact ... the only dog bite (with intent) I have ever gotten was by a Chi ... I turned my back on the little miscreant (with extreme contempt ) ... and he bit me in the ankle!! :surprise:

Lesson learned!


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Deb said:


> LOL, I know. I was shocked it could jump so high. I was standing in front of a table in line about to make entries for a match. It shoved me into the table and moved the table back almost a foot into the two ladies sitting behind it. The bulldog and owner were made to leave.* The guy said he brought it to the Match to help it get over being dog aggressive. Really??!*!


OMG ... and most likely ... he left that venue and went to ... the local "Dog Park."


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

LuvShepherds said:


> Jenny720 said:
> 
> 
> > Mine are working line brings up a good point. It makes me think is why maybe those little guys do cause such s ruckus they know they can away with it. Not all little dogs either we have a chihuahua who is lot like that. He does though know how to lay down the law. I think you have the roles mixed up here. You are suppose to protect your pup from harms way this gives your dog confidence in you and strengthens your bond together and this allows your pup's confidence to grow.
> ...


Exactly they are allowed -their owners are mostly proud to have a Mini kujo or find it hilarious never correcting it. They seem to have much faith in the other dog owner and the larger dog that no harm will come to their little dog.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Things are really not going great...... Today on our leashed walk, an off-leash all-black neighbour's dog (it looks roughly 30pounds and has a tag on it, it looks like a puppy to me) ran to us (where the owner is nowhere to be found) from his front yard as we walked by, my pup got so scared of the dog running towards her that she let out a big scream and dragged me towards some benches and hided under it. That neighbour's dog jumped all over me probably because I carried lots of treats, and I could not get away until throwing away lots of treats. Then I carried my pup and made a run, but the dog caught up with me easily after he finished eating those treats as because of my sprained ankle I can't really run. And I ended up with my pup screaming, trying to climb onto my head from the carry position and a dog jumping up and down on me (he seems to be trying to bite my pup's tail which was shaking violently). It sounds stupid but I ended up escaping to another neighbour's fenced front yard and locked the dog outside to get out of the situation as nobody was around to help. That dog barked at us for a while and then returned to his owner's property.

Before this incident, we have also met other off-leash neighbours' dogs before, but my pup greeted them happily and we just continued our way, and most of them only stayed on their property. This time my pup's reaction seemed to excite the dog and this stupid incident happened... 

The good news is that it is getting really cold in Canada, and hopefully all those off-leash neighbours' dogs will go indoors within the next month. But I am seriously considering to only have long walks midnight for now... This incident was scary even for ME. I don't want to have my pup screaming literally on top of my head again. 

I am definitely getting a trainer involved in this after this incident, as I don't think I can socialize my dog with larger darker colored dogs on my own without any more damage. A question though, do you think I should hire a trainer who just comes to my home alone (most of the trainers seem to be this way) or should I hire a trainer who takes different polite adult dog every time to my home or should I hire a trainer who meets me at a park where there are other dogs?



Thecowboysgirl said:


> JunYue I think your chances are good of her growing up just fine if you really get proactive now.
> 
> A private trainer is probably a good idea if the focus is engagement with you in the presence of reliable under control other dogs. I really wouldn't worry about focusing on changing your puppy's approach toward other dogs, she is a baby and is going to change radically month by month as she grows with no interference by you. I would just focus on teaching her to keep her focus on you, get all her play needs met by you, and be able to do all that and recalls ect in the oresence of other dogs because in order for her to have a safe and happy life in these offleash (LATER!! :smile2: you need to have good control of her no matter what else is going on.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks again. You are right I am definitely getting a spray shield and I am definitely getting a trainer involved... I have emailed 4 different training schools nearby right after we got home and hopefully one of them can help me deal with this.



Pan_GSD said:


> as for the OP, i'm sorry about what your dog had to go through
> 
> unfortunate since he seemed like a very playful dog based on your prior posts
> 
> i've heard about the negative things about dog parts even before i got my dog so i never really even thought about taking my dog to a dog park


Hey, the good news is that my pup is still very playful with humans and all those incidents do not seem to have an impact on her when she is at home, she seems to be fine with light colored dogs much smaller than she is, but she is absolutely terrified of dark colored ones as all the ones who have attacked her have darker colors.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

:headbang:

why are all the dogs so crazy where you live....


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Pan_GSD said:


> :headbang:
> 
> why are all the dogs so crazy where you live....


haha...actually most dogs are fine, it is because there are so many dogs where I live that the chances of meeting more aggressive dogs and irresponsible owners are higher (there are three vet clinics within 15 min walking distance to my home). Moreover, except the first incident, I suspect all the other incidents are partially due to my pup's submissiveness and the other dogs can sense that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> Things are really not going great...... Today on our leashed walk, an off-leash all-black neighbour's dog (it looks roughly 30pounds and has a tag on it, it looks like a puppy to me) ran to us (where the owner is nowhere to be found) from his front yard as we walked by, my pup got so scared of the dog running towards her that she let out a big scream and dragged me towards some benches and hided under it.
> 
> If it were me, I would have picked my puppy up as soon as I saw a dog charging her.
> 
> ...


The color of other dogs doesn't matter.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The color of other dogs doesn't matter.


Thanks for letting me know that our bond has been damaged... 

The color of other dogs doesn't matter to us humans, but my pup associates darker color to aggressive dog because of her incidents. And for rewarding that bad dog, I had to do it to get the dog out of me, obviously I did not want to push him away physically as I feared getting bitten. I have tried protecting myself and her, and I will invest in a spray shieldew, but I believe my pup needs to learn to associate larger darker dogs with good things, thus I asked that question about what kind of trainers I should hire. Even if I manage to protect my dog from all future incidents, she still needs to un-learn fearing dogs who run to her as this will definitely happen again as it is not something I can control.

As for why I did not pick her up at first, I described there that she dragged me towards the bench when she saw the dog running towards her, she reacted faster than I did.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Can you post info about the trainers before you pick one? Some trainers are way better than others and people here might be able to help you make a better choice.

Can you put your pup in the car and drive somehwere quieter to walk for the time being?

For what it's worth, a dog broke off a chain and charged me with my puppy when he was super little, like 10 weeks maybe. Scared the crap out of him even though the dog didn't get to him. Later that same dog just barked at him from across the street and he panicked. He tried so hard to bolt I was sure he was going to slip his collar and run away. I had to scoop him up in my arms and carry him away. He is fine now. So hang in there.


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## Pan_GSD (Oct 2, 2016)

i once used this air horn to curb my dog's biting

it was very effective the first 10 sprays, but later my dog learned there was nothing else to the sound so he learned to ignore it

but this may be of some use to you when you encounter new aggressive dogs and if you like to use a tool that doesn't cause any harm to the dog

https://www.amazon.com/Company-Animals-Pet-Corrector-200ml/dp/B0051GO5WM/


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

JunYue97 said:


> as I don't think I can socialize my dog with larger darker colored dogs on my own without any more damage


And ... right there is the source of your problem! 

No trainer can tell you whether or not the next random stray dog you encounter is friendly or aggressive??? You're putting your "puppies" well being into the hands of other dog owners and thus far ... its not working out too well??? 

No Reasonable owner would expect a "puppy" to defend itself??? That's your job, not going to the "Dog Park" is a good first step but the fact that your are concerned with this or that color dog ... says you don't get it???

Stray dog encounters are "random" events ie "unpredictable in nature???" As long as the "color of the random expected dog" is first most in your mind ... you and your puppy or going to continue to get "Hammered!" 

My policy is "NO DOG I DO NOT KNOW" gets close to mine with intend to do harm, "without going thru me first period!!!" Thirteen have tried thus far (9 attempts on Rocky, OS WL GSD) alone (not sure what that's about??) But nonetheless my dogs have never been touched by a stray dog!!! And my dogs ... don't lack "Confidence" but it's not there "Job" to protect themselves it's my job to protect them and I am good at my job!!

As long as your mindset is "maybe this or that random stray" is acceptable?? You're going to get hammered and your dog/puppy will have "zero" confidence in you! If "you" are not going to change your behaviour ... then perhaps it would be better to rehome the dog to someone more capable??? 

Right now ... in these encounters it sounds like "nobody's in control" lack of leadership! We have stories on here where owners have tried and failed and there dogs where injured. But those dogs were just fine ... because those dogs owners understand that there "Leader" was right there with them! 

You don't have to succeed in counter an attack you just have to try ... dogs get that! You have my back ... I'll have yours! For the record ... I've proofed that one myself, flat on back on ice while defending "Rocky" I was fully expecting a belly full of teeth when he stepped up ... I was like "WTH???" BUt ... that's another story.

At any rate ... enough of "hammer time" my point is that you need to make a change in your behaviour and expectations. If you decide that your dog/puppy is number one and he has "zero need" to meet unknown dogs?? Then you can salvage your dog/puppy. But as long as you are not willing to change your expectations ie "I want my dog to luv all unknow dogs" ... it's pretty much meaningless, but if your are willing to change your expectations??? Then ... you will find this thread thread useful. In this thread ... by and large we don't screw around with "strays!" :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-if-another-dog-attacks-your-while-leash.html


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

STOP taking your dog on walks until you can talk with a trainer. Seriously, you aren't accomplishing anything at this point but putting her in harms way.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Hey thanks for the replies,



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Can you post info about the trainers before you pick one? Some trainers are way better than others and people here might be able to help you make a better choice.
> 
> Can you put your pup in the car and drive somehwere quieter to walk for the time being?
> 
> For what it's worth, a dog broke off a chain and charged me with my puppy when he was super little, like 10 weeks maybe. Scared the crap out of him even though the dog didn't get to him. Later that same dog just barked at him from across the street and he panicked. He tried so hard to bolt I was sure he was going to slip his collar and run away. I had to scoop him up in my arms and carry him away. He is fine now. So hang in there.


Sure I will post info about trainers after they reply to me Monday or Tuesday. And thanks for the comfort. And no I don't even have my driver's license yet... I live so close to downtown, lake, parks and transportation that I only need a bike.



Pan_GSD said:


> i once used this air horn to curb my dog's biting
> 
> it was very effective the first 10 sprays, but later my dog learned there was nothing else to the sound so he learned to ignore it
> 
> ...


Hey thanks, I will take a look at that.



Chip18 said:


> And ... right there is the source of your problem!
> 
> No trainer can tell you whether or not the next random stray dog you encounter is friendly or aggressive??? You're putting your "puppies" well being into the hands of other dog owners and thus far ... its not working out too well???
> 
> ...


I don't think you get my point with color... What i was saying is that my pup clearly associates darker colors with threat, and I need to let her un-learn that some point in the future. I did not mean lighter colored dogs are good, darker ones are bad... And let's just say if fighting a aggressive stray dog is my job as an owner, I honestly don't think I would be good with the job. That is why I chose the breed GSD in the first place. But I will try.



Whiteshepherds said:


> STOP taking your dog on walks until you can talk with a trainer. Seriously, you aren't accomplishing anything at this point but putting her in harms way.


I have to take her on walks as we live in an apartment, and she needs to go out to 1) go potty 2) gets her exercise. We all know how destructive GSDs are if they are under-exercised.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> And let's just say if fighting a aggressive stray dog is my job as an owner, I honestly don't think I would be good with the job. That is why I chose the breed GSD in the first place. But I will try.


Seriously, you chose the wrong breed if that was what you were looking for. German Shepherds are supposed to possess human aggression, they aren't bred to be dog aggressive. 

Once again, this is the wrong breed for you. Maybe you should rehome her to somebody who is looking for what this breed has to offer and get a pup that is more suited for what you want and is bred for what you are looking for in a dog.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Seriously, you chose the wrong breed if that was what you were looking for. German Shepherds are supposed to possess human aggression, they aren't bred to be dog aggressive.
> 
> Once again, this is the wrong breed for you. Maybe you should rehome her to somebody who is looking for what this breed has to offer and get a pup that is more suited for what you want and is bred for what you are looking for in a dog.


lol I wasn't looking for dog aggression. GSDs are supposed to be able to defend themselves against yorkshire terrier as adults right? And that was what I was looking for. All dogs who have attacked her are considered less aggressive than german shepherds according to breed descriptions that I know of... I do NOT want her to fight another dog randomly, all I ask is a GSD who won't run away or be totally scared from strange dogs running at her as adults (I don't even ask her to protect me), which I hope I can train her into one. If you say that GSDs are supposed to be fearful and running away from aggressive dogs, I would argue that is an insult to the courageous breed I chose.

And I have to say I am getting pissed that you ask someone to rehome a dog without knowing all the details.... I think it is not a suggestion to play with. Thank you for your input though

Seriously I am a software engineer and I am looking forward to bring my dog into office someday, why would I need a fighting dog as you have previously suggested?


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> lol I wasn't looking for dog aggression. GSDs are supposed to be able to defend themselves against yorkshire terrier as adults right? And that was what I was looking for. All dogs who have attacked her are considered less aggressive than german shepherds according to breed descriptions that I know of... I do NOT want her to fight another dog randomly, all I ask is a GSD who won't run away at threats against herself as adults (I don't even ask her to protect me), which I hope I can train her into one. If you say that GSDs are supposed to be fearful and running away from aggressive dogs, I would argue that is an insult to the courageous breed I chose.
> 
> And I have to say I am getting pissed that you ask someone to rehome a dog without knowing all the details.... I think it is not a suggestion to play with. Thank you for your input though
> 
> Seriously I am a software engineer and I am looking forward to bring my dog into office someday, why would I need a fighting dog as you have previously suggested?


You are right, I only know what you tell me, let me repost: "And let's just say if fighting a aggressive stray dog is my job as an owner, I honestly don't think I would be good with the job. That is why I chose the breed GSD in the first place. But I will try."

Then you say you aren't looking for dog aggression. At this point I am still very confused about whether you want a dog aggressive dog or not. First you say you do, and then you say you don't.

Either way, I see a little baby dog that is being terrorized by adult dogs and is being blamed for it. IMO, there is something wrong with this picture.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

No matter what breed of dog you have or size or whatever.. you as the owner it is your responsibility to protect your dog always! Your dog should never have to be in the position to defend itself because you as the owner need to step up and let your puppy know "hey I got this don't worry!"


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Also, no matter what breed you get/have, a puppy is going to be afraid of any dog that goes after it. It's a baby. That bully in high school? He was afraid of adults that yelled at him when he was a baby. They grow up. But your job is to protect him until he grows up. 


At this point in time he is probably nervous/afraid of any dog coming at him quickly, regardless of color. It sounds like you don't yet know much about dogs or dog behavior and you came here for advice. That's the right thing to do. But now you need to listen to what they are saying to you. You're contradicting yourself so you're probably getting confused, easy to do on a forum. 


Can you tell us why you got a GSD? What do you want from him? Expect from him? I think if you start all over a little, it may help with the confusion we are also getting from our side in trying to help you.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JunYue97 said:


> lol I wasn't looking for dog aggression. GSDs are supposed to be able to defend themselves against yorkshire terrier as adults right? And that was what I was looking for. All dogs who have attacked her are considered less aggressive than german shepherds according to breed descriptions that I know of... I do NOT want her to fight another dog randomly, all I ask is a GSD who won't run away or be totally scared from strange dogs running at her as adults (I don't even ask her to protect me), which I hope I can train her into one. If you say that GSDs are supposed to be fearful and running away from aggressive dogs, I would argue that is an insult to the courageous breed I chose.
> 
> And I have to say I am getting pissed that you ask someone to rehome a dog without knowing all the details.... I think it is not a suggestion to play with. Thank you for your input though
> 
> Seriously I am a software engineer and I am looking forward to bring my dog into office someday, why would I need a fighting dog as you have previously suggested?


Dogs size up intent from other dogs before we know whats going on. Whether its aggression or just play, they know and I think either one most of the time is overwhelming for your puppy. If it was me, I would look for a distance from other dogs that she's comfortable at and give her a chance to figure out the other dogs aren't going to be allowed to make contact with her. That's where the protecting her comes in. It doesn't mean you roll on the ground brawling with terriers. You stay aware and manage the situation. 

That kind of thing can remove some of the things that bother her from her mind and then you get a chance to see what she grows into. Her general temperament is probably always going to be a little short of courageous, its not going to change from what you see now but you want to give her the chance to deal with everything. Does that make sense?


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

JunYue97 said:


> lol I wasn't looking for dog aggression. GSDs are supposed to be able to defend themselves against yorkshire terrier as adults right? And that was what I was looking for. All dogs who have attacked her are considered less aggressive than german shepherds according to breed descriptions that I know of... I do NOT want her to fight another dog randomly, all I ask is a GSD who won't run away or be totally scared from strange dogs running at her as adults (I don't even ask her to protect me), which I hope I can train her into one. If you say that GSDs are supposed to be fearful and running away from aggressive dogs, I would argue that is an insult to the courageous breed I chose.
> 
> And I have to say I am getting pissed that you ask someone to rehome a dog without knowing all the details.... I think it is not a suggestion to play with. Thank you for your input though
> 
> Seriously I am a software engineer and I am looking forward to bring my dog into office someday, why would I need a fighting dog as you have previously suggested?


Aww well since I thru the rehome the puppy thing out there ... let me explain "my reasoning" for saying such.

But first ... what one does for a living pretty ... much has "Zero" impact on properly raising a dog ... unless of course one's "profession" is a "Dog Trainer."  

The difference between those who can and those who can't is there* "willingness to adjust there expectations and work with the dog/puppy in front of them."
* One can learn what to do to make "adjustments" but without the "willingness" to do so ... the results usually end up like this.:

Plan B - Kill the Dog!

Your "idealized" GSD well most likely it would be this one here ... and he wound up in this situition becase of his owner and there "inability to adjust there expectations. :
http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...d-advice-czech-shepherd-dog-shelter-help.html

No doubt you and your puppy got some bad breaks ... sometimes "despite preparations ...Crap Happens." The fact that you are focusing on this or that color dog ... says you don't quite get it??? Your goal (in my opinion) should be dog (neutral). In the real world ...big, little, black, white barking in there face or not ... my dogs have "zero" response to provocation from other dogs. "Dog Netural" should be your goal. Safe know dogs only ... if you want to do the other dog thing.

As for the random attacks and stuff ... there are things you can do to "protect" yourself and your dog and they don't require (UDFS) Ultimate Dog Fighting Skills. But they do require commitment and a change in expectations on your part. 

We don't always get the dog we want?? But sometimes we do get the dog we need.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think OP urgently needs info on skills to repel other dogs that don't involve brute strength. My one caution with the compressed air is that it may also scare YOUR puppy and she does not need one more scary thing to occur around other dogs!! 

I think some people have had success popping an umbrella in the face of the approaching dog to fend it off? 

I have even thrown rocks but that could really harm a dog and make an owner mad so decide whether that is smart for you. I did it to some free roaming pitbulls who were stalking me with my dogs on leash. Their owners didn't care about them and I am not sorry I did it because it worked. My aim sucks and I dont think I even hit any of them but at least one recognized what I was doing, not the first time somone had thrown stuff at this dog, and it left

If your dog is truly afraid of dark colored dogs then yes you may need to unlearn that for her but it doesn't need to be right now. Right now she just needs to understand that she is safe with you and not going to get accosted anymore. Even if she acts like she wants to greet another dog, don't let her. 1, she may get in close and then panic, maybe also yiping which could trigger a bad response from the dog and 2, you don't know how some strange dog is going to treat her and you just can't take anymore chances with this puppy.

Eventually she could be reintroduced to calm, reliable KNOWN dogs but dealing with the immediate bombarding of loose dogs is absolutely #1 priority. 

And do be realistic about what she is likely to grow up to be and I hope you can accept her for who she is. Where did she come from? A great breeder or a BYB? If she is from a BYB then your chances are higher that she may not have a breed standard temperame t because bybs aren't breeding to a standard. And, she is white. Now don't get me wrong, I love whites and my boy is white, but they aren't usually competing in protection sports for a lot of reasons, some fair, some not, but generally they are not being selected for breeding the same way some other breeders do and being titled in Schutzhund.

My white pup is about a year and a half, and he is just perfect for my purposes. He has a big booming bark to alert me if he has seen or heard something out of the ordinary around the house. He is fairly aloof toward strangers and is fairly steady out and about. We have really not been in a situation that was truly threatening or seemed truly threatening so he hasn't had an opportunity to prove himself that way like my girl has. He is not fearless but he is not a big bag of nerves either. When a strange man came to the door of our rental cottage he did his big shepherd bark to let me know he was there. He stopped when I asked him to a d stood next to me with a direct stare at the guy while I spoke to him and until he left. That is basically what I want and need my dog to do, if he saw the guy at the door and ran away I'll be honest, I would be disappointed. But ho estly even if he had turned out like that I would still love him because he is my boy.


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## belladonnalily (May 24, 2013)

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the fact that the OP is trying to raise a GSD, yet can't even attempt to fend off a 30lb dog except by throwing treats at it. 

The odds of actually having to physically FIGHT said 30lb dog are slim. One just needs to not be a shrinking violet. Although I will admit I walked around once with a nasty JRT hanging on to my boot, but that's another story....

I'm in the "wrong dog for this owner" crowd. Your dog is young. Hopefully, your pup will become more confident, and as your dog grows, will become more physically demanding of you. And I really think your understanding of dog behavior leaves too much to be desired to be handing a GSD pup at this point.

Sorry to be blunt, but life's too short to take on that much of a challenge.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

As for the random attacks and stuff ... there are things you can do to "protect" yourself and your dog and they don't require (UDFS) Ultimate Dog Fighting Skills. But they do require commitment and a change in expectations on your part. 

We don't always get the dog we want?? But sometimes we do get the dog we need. [/QUOTE]

Chip, you are hilarious. And I agree with what you are saying. Really think the focus here should be everybody chipping in on how to repel these dogs. And OP, if you can find a trainer to help you learn that, how to repel dogs....maybe a trai er who runs a daycare or board and train with some slightly unruly dogs for you to practice making them move from one place to a another or making them stay out of your space (without your puppy present)

As for this whole rehoming thing, I do think it is a bit extreme. OP is trying to hire a trainer and get help with this pup. Lots of people expect GSD puppies to be protective and don't know any better. If this pup grows up to be less than a courageous lion and the OP can't accept that then yeah maybe they should consider rehoming her....but that really sin't what I thought I understood them to be saying.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

belladonnalily said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the fact that the OP is trying to raise a GSD, yet can't even attempt to fend off a 30lb dog except by throwing treats at it.
> 
> The odds of actually having to physically FIGHT said 30lb dog are slim. One just needs to not be a shrinking violet. Although I will admit I walked around once with a nasty JRT hanging on to my boot, but that's another story....
> 
> ...


LOL ... well "philosophically" I am not in disagreement with you. 

And yes ... I did lob "rehomeing out there" ... but only "if" the "puppies" owner is not willing to change her approach for her "puppy" at this point and time.

Safe to same ... that not to many people when they are getting a dog pre-plan "Dog Park" gone wrong, "Stray" dog encounter issues??? Crap happens ... it's what you do "after you realize you have a "issue" that makes the difference between those who can and those who cant. 

Sigh at the risk of seriously derailing yet another thread ... I blame Cesar Milan for this kinda crap! At the end of nearly ever episode of the "Dog Whisper" he shows the newly rehabbed dogs going off to have a good time in the local "Dog Park!!!"

When I see that "crap" my thoughts are "well ... what about the other non Cesar dogs with attitudes there.. And does he do no cost re-rehab visits if someone calls up and says ..."My Dog was attacked at the Dog Park" and has had a relapse??? Does he do return visits??? My policy is just say no to "Dog Parks" and "Unknown" dogs ... works out fine.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> As for this whole rehoming thing, I do think it is a bit extreme. OP is trying to hire a trainer and get help with this pup. Lots of people expect GSD puppies to be protective and don't know any better. If this pup grows up to be less than a courageous lion and the OP can't accept that then yeah maybe they should consider rehoming her....but that really sin't what I thought I understood them to be saying.


Yeah the re-homing thing was me, "extreme" example but I felt forced to throw it out there because of the "dark colored dog thing." 

To me ... that points to a lack of flexibly and focusing on the wrong issue?? Me and my guys have had our runs in with many strays! By and large I don't recall what "color most of them were??? I don't care ... if it's a dog I do not know and the come at my dogs ... they meet firm resistance from me!

And yes there are lots of options one can deploy to "protect there dog" and there are members here who have tried and failed to prevent injury to there dogs and there dogs got struck! But ... they were there for there dog and they reported there dogs were just fine after the fact no "rehab" required. "Because" I would speculate that there dog understood Mom/Dad has my back come what may. 

I'm more then willing to pitch in on "countermeasures" short of "UDF" but I can't work with the ... well it's a "light colored" dog so we're good thing ...maybe/maybe not??? That to me ... shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the "issue at hand" in my view. 

People that can't or won't change there approach when it's wrong are the one's that "PTS" or "Rehome" dogs when the dog fails to meet there "preconceived" expectations ... happens all the time.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Yeah, I see your point. So it wouldnt be a bad thing for the OP to do some soul searching particularly about whether they will be able to accept, love, and provide for this dog regardless of how it turns out.

It crossed my mind awhile back that they might have done better adopting an adult dog with a somewhat known personality and reaction to other dogs (although we have all heard stories of rescues who suddenly became reactive with new owners after a time).

I don't know.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

It's a crap shoot when adopting an older dog unless you've known the older dog prior to adopting it. Often if adopting from a foster home it depends on how long the dog has been there. Dogs will go through a 'honeymoon' phase at new place and there's no set timeline on how long it will last. Dogs will also act differently with different people. A dog might act one way with a person who is dog savvy and another with a person the dog reads as not my leader. 


And people will lie in order to get a dog out of it's home. I've taken in a cavalier that had a very bad resource guarding problem with people over other dogs. He had to go to a home with no other dogs and he was fine. I took in a standard poodle who had resource guarding over food. It took a while to find a home that was strong enough to handle her. She learned she couldn't do it in my house, but needed a home with experience. Resource guarding is something I find the most of in fostering. 


And sometimes you can get a totally awesome dog. Like I said, it's a crap shoot, good, bad, and maybe needs a little work.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Ok, thanks for your inputs.

Firstly, I need to make several clarifications for some of you (most of you seem to get it fine, but some of you seem to confuse my point with something else). 
1)I don't want to rehome my dog and I am not thrilled at you guys who suggest something like that so lightly. Do you really want people like me rehoming our dogs because their temperament is not what we have expected in the first place --- if you do, I guarantee there will be more floods of shelter dogs.
2) As I have explained, the darker colored dogs scare my pup more, it is obvious to me during our walks...! Stop saying I care about color myself --- I don't care about it personally, but I think my pup fears it more and I want to associate darker bigger dogs with good things for her! In fact when I decide to buy a pup, I was debating between full-black dog and full-white cat VS full-white dog and full-black cat. The latter only won because I want to bring my dog to work and I think white ones will look less formidable to ordinary people...I have no problem with darker colors myself.
3) I agree I should protect this puppy, but this puppy clearly does not have a typical GSD temperament even for a puppy, and that is what I have been trying to describe. She is very submissive with dogs regardless of their age/sex/weight from the very beginning, which is what I believe attracted those bully dogs in the first place. It is very clear it is in her genetics, we have gone to many group classes with many other puppies, and she seems to be the one of the most submissive one despite GSD's breed standard. You guys have not watched my pup interacting with other pups so maybe it is hard for you to imagine. But she is indeed very clearly submissive around all other puppies, and it is clear timidness/submissiveness is in her genetics. And I think that is why those dogs choose to go after her because they sense weakness in her. I want her to have the temperament of a standard GSD, but obviously I can't, so yes i will try to protect her and no I am not blaming her but blaming her breeder for promising the temperament of a standard GSD and blaming myself for buying her without doing research on breeder. (btw, when I search online, some websites do claim white GSDs have softer temperament and can become quite timid because people generally breed whites for family fun instead of work/protection...I read it online and just put it out here, it may be right or wrong I don't know.)
4) I am not looking for dog aggression and I hope I have made it clear, but a standard GSD adult should be able to defend itself against most breeds. Agree? And most dog breeds do not want to mess with standard GSD adults in the first place. Agree? And that is what I was frustrated about --- again I am not blaming her, but I do feel upset that my dog does not have the genetics of a standard GSD temperament. Nonetheless she is my dog and I am not going to rehome her for this reason. After all I can try to protect her now and can hopefully train her to stay away from strange dogs and do not run away from dogs as adults so that she can still run off-leash with me just fine.

Today on our leashed walks, we have only met several leashed dogs, and for whatever reasons she gets all excited trying to meet them... I don't think she has recovered so quickly, I guess she understands leashed dogs = no chasing lol. But I did not let her greet them and instead took her away in case there will be troubles. 



Deb said:


> Also, no matter what breed you get/have, a puppy is going to be afraid of any dog that goes after it. It's a baby. That bully in high school? He was afraid of adults that yelled at him when he was a baby. They grow up. But your job is to protect him until he grows up.
> 
> At this point in time he is probably nervous/afraid of any dog coming at him quickly, regardless of color. It sounds like you don't yet know much about dogs or dog behavior and you came here for advice. That's the right thing to do. But now you need to listen to what they are saying to you. You're contradicting yourself so you're probably getting confused, easy to do on a forum.
> 
> Can you tell us why you got a GSD? What do you want from him? Expect from him? I think if you start all over a little, it may help with the confusion we are also getting from our side in trying to help you.


I have wanted a standard temperament GSD to run/hike with me off-leash in off-leash dog trails without drama. And I will try to protect her now so that she can do it as adults hopefully.



Steve Strom said:


> Dogs size up intent from other dogs before we know whats going on. Whether its aggression or just play, they know and I think either one most of the time is overwhelming for your puppy. If it was me, I would look for a distance from other dogs that she's comfortable at and give her a chance to figure out the other dogs aren't going to be allowed to make contact with her. That's where the protecting her comes in. It doesn't mean you roll on the ground brawling with terriers. You stay aware and manage the situation.
> 
> That kind of thing can remove some of the things that bother her from her mind and then you get a chance to see what she grows into. Her general temperament is probably always going to be a little short of courageous, its not going to change from what you see now but you want to give her the chance to deal with everything. Does that make sense?


Thanks for the tips. I am glad someone understands my problem. And your suggestion is what I am trying to do, it is sometimes hard though, as neighbors don't always leash their dogs in the front yards, but it seems midnight/early-morning walks do the trick



Chip18 said:


> Aww well since I thru the rehome the puppy thing out there ... let me explain "my reasoning" for saying such.
> 
> But first ... what one does for a living pretty ... much has "Zero" impact on properly raising a dog ... unless of course one's "profession" is a "Dog Trainer."
> 
> ...


Yes, what one does for a living have negligible impact on raising a dog, but it has an impact on choosing the breed - I doubt any company would allow a fighting breed to accompany me to my office. And that was my point because someone suggested me choosing a fighting breed before.

I am not focussing on the color of dogs. But I do want my pup to associate darker colored dogs with good things because she seems to fear darker colored dogs more. I personally don't care about color of a dog, but she cares about it, and that is why I need to address darker color as an issue.

And thanks I will try to protect her now so that she hopefully won't be as timid around off-leash strange dogs as adults.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> I think OP urgently needs info on skills to repel other dogs that don't involve brute strength. My one caution with the compressed air is that it may also scare YOUR puppy and she does not need one more scary thing to occur around other dogs!!
> 
> I think some people have had success popping an umbrella in the face of the approaching dog to fend it off?
> 
> ...


Hey thanks so much. I am glad you understand my situation and are willing to help Unfortunately she is from a backyard breeder who is in financial crisis (She asks me to pay for the pup before getting her because she can't pay her rent without the money). I admit it was my fault, I did not know breed standards need to be bred to --- I thought it was guaranteed with the purchase of a breed.

And yeah when I was cornered by that off-leash neighbour's dog I seriously thought about kicking her or lashing her with my leash. But after all he is someone else's dog and he looks like an overly excited puppy to me. I think I am going to try pepper spray haha.



belladonnalily said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the fact that the OP is trying to raise a GSD, yet can't even attempt to fend off a 30lb dog except by throwing treats at it.
> 
> The odds of actually having to physically FIGHT said 30lb dog are slim. One just needs to not be a shrinking violet. Although I will admit I walked around once with a nasty JRT hanging on to my boot, but that's another story....
> 
> ...


lol firstly I am quite fit and I run long distance --- that is why I get a sporty dog in the first place. Secondly I don't think ability to fight away dog has a serious correlation with ability to raise a dog fine. Thirdly, I know older people (hi grandpa) raising a GSD just fine. Fourthly, I can fight away that 30lb dog if I decide to hurt him, but yeah I can not fight him away without worrying hurting him or me so I throw the treats as it is an easy way out. 

So thanks for the input but no thanks, i don't want to rehome my pup. I may not have a solid understanding of dogs but I have proven myself to learn stuff really fast generally, and I have the financial resources to hire a private trainer so thanks but we will be fine, unless her genetic timidness is so strong that she needs to always run from strange off-leash dogs in the future. I will protect her now and train her with trainer so hopefully that won't happen.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> As for the random attacks and stuff ... there are things you can do to "protect" yourself and your dog and they don't require (UDFS) Ultimate Dog Fighting Skills. But they do require commitment and a change in expectations on your part.
> 
> We don't always get the dog we want?? But sometimes we do get the dog we need.
> 
> ...


Yes definitely changing expectation and committing to a private trainer. And yes you understand right. I don't expect my dog to ever protect me, but I have to admit I do not look forward to protect my adult GSD from dog fight everyday so hopefully my trainer can help me to avoid that future by training her to stay away but not run away from strange off-leash dogs. And if an off-leash dog decides to come to us, we can walk away and hopefully his/her owner can call him/her back. And yes I will protect her now.



Chip18 said:


> Yeah the re-homing thing was me, "extreme" example but I felt forced to throw it out there because of the "dark colored dog thing."
> 
> To me ... that points to a lack of flexibly and focusing on the wrong issue?? Me and my guys have had our runs in with many strays! By and large I don't recall what "color most of them were??? I don't care ... if it's a dog I do not know and the come at my dogs ... they meet firm resistance from me!
> 
> ...


...please read my clarification for darker colors... I have clarified my reasoning about that many times and I have stated many times that I am taking measures to protect my pup from off-leash dogs. 



Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yeah, I see your point. So it wouldnt be a bad thing for the OP to do some soul searching particularly about whether they will be able to accept, love, and provide for this dog regardless of how it turns out.
> 
> It crossed my mind awhile back that they might have done better adopting an adult dog with a somewhat known personality and reaction to other dogs (although we have all heard stories of rescues who suddenly became reactive with new owners after a time).
> 
> I don't know.


Yes I do regret not adopting an adult dog. I have to admit if my dog always stays crazy scared (scream and make a desperate run) of off-leash strange friendly dogs who come our way even as adult and even with help of private trainings and doing what we can, then yes I may have to rehome her as running with my dog off-leash in off-leash trails is the #1 reason that I get a dog in the first place. But hopefully by avoiding dogs now and receiving the help of a private trainer, that won't happen.



Deb said:


> It's a crap shoot when adopting an older dog unless you've known the older dog prior to adopting it. Often if adopting from a foster home it depends on how long the dog has been there. Dogs will go through a 'honeymoon' phase at new place and there's no set timeline on how long it will last. Dogs will also act differently with different people. A dog might act one way with a person who is dog savvy and another with a person the dog reads as not my leader.
> 
> And people will lie in order to get a dog out of it's home. I've taken in a cavalier that had a very bad resource guarding problem with people over other dogs. He had to go to a home with no other dogs and he was fine. I took in a standard poodle who had resource guarding over food. It took a while to find a home that was strong enough to handle her. She learned she couldn't do it in my house, but needed a home with experience. Resource guarding is something I find the most of in fostering.
> 
> And sometimes you can get a totally awesome dog. Like I said, it's a crap shoot, good, bad, and maybe needs a little work.


haha my dog is not aggressive and do not guard food/water from me or my cat so I don't worry too much about it for now. I do really fear her getting fearful-aggressive with other dogs or a type of dogs (darker, bigger males) and that is one reason why I am seeking private trainer.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> 1)I don't want to rehome my dog and I am not thrilled at you guys who suggest something like that so lightly. Do you really want people like me rehoming our dogs because their temperament is not what we have expected in the first place --- if you do, I guarantee there will be more floods of shelter dogs.
> 
> I would absolutely rehome a dog that is not compatible with what I want. A dog can be a 10-12 year commitment and to care for a dog for years that disappoints you is a lose lose proposition for you and your dog.
> 
> ...


You say you have proven yourself to learn things really fast. Then learn from all the experienced people on here that have been giving you valid advice even though it is not what you want to hear.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Okay so, JunYue... I see that you are trying, I am super glad you didn't let your puppy greet those other dogs. She got the right message, other dogs are there and won't hurt her, no biggie. Just keep it up.

I am glad you are getting a trainer. 

You are doing a lot to try and make this right. BYB GSDs, white or not, I think are more likely to have health and temperament problems BUT I have met plenty of puppy mill or BYB dogs who are not super messed up, some great dogs, so I encourage you to not assume ahead of time that your dog is messed up.

Breeders feel free to correct me if I am wrong but the breed standard for temperament is for an adult, it does not apply to puppies. So I do think your saying the puppy is flawed for being submissive toward other dogs is maybe not accurate. And now that it has even been injured by another dog, this puppy is totally justified in being frightened of other dogs. 

Anyway keep up the good work, you are doing the right thing now. Give her a chance to grow up and learn some better life lessons.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

_And most dog breeds do not want to mess with standard GSD adults in the first place. Agree?_

Dogs don't see breeds, only another dog, so no, this isn't true.


Be careful you are not getting nervous when you see a dark colored dog, that will go right down the leash to her.


It sound like you are trying hard to do what you can for her. You can't change genetics, but working with her may allow you to get where she is more comfortable. If you ever plan to let her off lead, I would invest in a GPS collar.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I would absolutely rehome a dog that is not compatible with what I want. A dog can be a 10-12 year commitment and to care for a dog for years that disappoints you is a lose lose proposition for you and your dog.
> 
> *Yes her temperament is not what I have hoped, but with proper training she can do what I want to do with her.*
> 
> ...


Thanks


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Okay so, JunYue... I see that you are trying, I am super glad you didn't let your puppy greet those other dogs. She got the right message, other dogs are there and won't hurt her, no biggie. Just keep it up.
> 
> I am glad you are getting a trainer.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks. I don't think my dog is messed up --- she is not aggressive and I call that messed up. But she is clearly submissive compared to other puppies even before everything as noted from her interactions with other puppies. I would say she is timid but super friendly by nature from our living together for 2 months, but that is okay. As you said I will train her and let her grow safely, so hopefully her timidness is not going to affect our lives



Deb said:


> _And most dog breeds do not want to mess with standard GSD adults in the first place. Agree?_
> 
> Dogs don't see breeds, only another dog, so no, this isn't true.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks. Maybe it is me, I normally do not see dogs going up to the strongest looking dog around to start a fight so I make the generalization. I agree I might be wrong. 

Nowadays I just get her away when I see any dog around, but hopefully she does not sense my nervousness when I see another off-leash dog around. I have to admit I am worried an off-leash dog will chase us again on our walks.

And yeah I agree GPS tracker is a good idea, I am thinking of getting her a GPS tag if I can find one instead of collar.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I am listening to what you guys have to offer. But I don' think you are listening to me! It is clear she is timid by genetics, and I need advice regarding how to deal with that instead of people claiming she is a normal GSD puppy because as her owner I know she is not, though I don't like that fact myself.


Thats why the distance is helpful. You need to keep her out and around everything, but keep her out of situations where she's bothered and thinking too much. You don't want her worrying about getting along with this dog or that one. She doesn't need contact with every person you see. Let her learn to be indifferent to those things and focus on you.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

_Nowadays I just get her away when I see any dog around, but hopefully she does not sense my nervousness when I see another off-leash dog around. I have to admit I am worried an off-leash dog will chase us again on our walks._

She does sense your nervousness, it's hard to hide from a dog. When you see a dog and your stress goes way up, so does hers. So you kind of have yourselves going in a circle. You probably go out the door worrying and stressing over 'what ifs'- what if we run into stray dogs? What if one attacks us? Now she is picking up on that which is where the circle happens. 


A lot of handlers use peppermint altoids or peppermint candy to help. Try that and see if you and she can stay calmer on your walks.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> Yes her temperament is not what I have hoped, but with proper training she can do what I want to do with her.
> 
> You can only suppress or enhance genetics. You can't get out what isn't there to begin with. Dogs are NOT what you raise and train them to be.
> 
> ...


We have listened to what you think your problem is, most that have posted just don't agree with it.


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## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

OK ... well ... despite the "heat" generated ... you are still here! Outstanding ... that pretty much says a lot (in a good way!) Raising a dog/puppy is not so much about what we know but more about our or ability to adapt to unexpected circumstances! That ability ... is a big deal and you appear to have it! 

And an observation on the strays not attacking GSD thing??? I seriously doubt that your girl would ever come close to rivaling my OS WL GSD (Black as it happens) in size. And you know ... strays don't care! In fifteen years with my American Band Dawg APBT/Boxer and Boxers I recall one attempt for sure and maybe two more over a few years?? When I added "Rocky" the aforementioned OS Wl GSD, that number explored to 9 in a short period of time??? 

I deterred all attempts with out harm or injury to the stray. Rocky was pretty bored with it all ... this is what dad does kind thing ... whatever. He protected me once unbid when I slipped on ice while defending him ... nother story.  

But aside from that "we" only had one disagreement on one stray dog. A "Pit Bull" I saw him first and "Rocky off leash was behind me at a distance. The Pitty saw me and appeared to be friendly. I called him and he was approaching, then he saw "Rocky coming up and changed (demeanor) and charged. 

I saw the "Pitty charging "Rocky" and "Rocky" saw the "Pitty" charging me??? Rocky was not having of it!!! And unlike his usual stand there calmly and let daddy deal with it behavior ... this time he was ticked off??? 

I actually had to turn my back on the "Pitty" and body block "Rocky" to keep him away from the "Pitty???" I was kinda sorta ticked off! That was a first for me ... the "Pitty??" Apparently he felt both of us were nuts and flat disappeared into the darkness???

I was not happy with "Rocky" over that one but whatever. My point ... I don't let my dogs regardless of size or demeanor engage with strays! Not there job and that was with my boys ... ie Rocky and Gunther (American Band Dog) and ... Dog Aggressive in any case so dog fights would have been no big deal to him ...nothing to fix afterwards there win or lose!

But my baby girl ... Struddell (White Boxer) yeah ... fortunately we were never threatened! Well once by the two strays when I slipped on the ice but fortunately for them they targeted me and Rocky and not Struddel (she was to the rear with my wife) had they targeted my girl?? I would have let Rocky loose on them and I would have followed! The fury of **** would have fell on those dogs!!!

Don't screw with my "Boxer!!!" I protect my boys in any case but my girl ...yeah reason goes out the freaking window!!! 

It's a way of life ... thus far none have "passed me!" But I will go out of way to avoid situations! I don't use "tools" and I have never had need to lay hands on a stray dog. But I make it "Crystal Clear" to them that (strays) will need to get thru me ... to get to my dogs!

As I am want to say ...

:IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/n39eyo.jpg[/IMG]

As I say ... thirteen attempts thus far and no dog passes!!! As long as you get that ... we can help. No one can say how your dog will ultimately turn out?? But we all pretty much agree that "forcing her to man/girl up is not the way to go?? 

We stand or fall together ... is the way to go.


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## TwoBigEars (May 11, 2013)

JunYue, I have sympathy for you because Baymax sounds similar to my white shepherd female who was also nervous and shy. No it is not standard temperament and certainly not what I wanted but it's what I got and she ended up being the dearest dog to me. I commend you for asking for help and reaching out to trainers. Be sure to screen the trainers carefully and select one who leans more towards positive methods, because that is what Baymax needs to build her confidence. You won't be able to yank and crank her into being fine with other dogs, and I think you already know that.

My suggestions for now:

-no more greetings or play with other dogs, on leash or off leash, period. Unless you know the other dog very well and Baymax has had positive encounters with that dog previously. Reactivity can also happen when a dog is used to being able to play with others often, but is unable to such as being on leash and unable to reach the other dog. The dog becomes frustrated at not being able to play and this turns into that kind of reactive aggression.

-work on engagement and play with you. The easiest kind of dog to have is one that is neutral towards other dogs. Not afraid but not overly interested in playing with them either. Engagement with you will help her understand that when other dogs are around, good things happen with you. This is what I've been working on with my current puppy who is a bit nervous of other dogs, and she's made a lot of progress.

-do some learning about canine body language. This will help you understand both what Baymax is saying, as well as other dogs that you see out and about. Is that strange dog really friendly, alert, nervous, defensive? You want to be able to see these things accurately and it will help you avoid unpleasant encounters. The more you learn about body language the earlier you'll be able to see things and head things off long before Baymax is screaming in fear.

-get with those trainers. They can set up structured sessions with known dogs, which will be key for helping Baymax's confidence. Trying to work on this with random dogs on the street is very risky.

-figure out how to stop other dogs approaching Baymax, whether with things like the spray shield or just your body language. Most dogs will back off if you move confidently/aggressively towards them. When dogs approach us, I give a sharp "NO!" and move quickly towards them. They respond to this pressure towards them and move away, as well as being surprised by a human doing that. It was hard for me to do this, I'm not a naturally assertive person, but you get better at it. And reminding yourself that protecting the dog you live with 24/7 is more important than offending a person/dog that you don't live with.

Good luck! Feel free to PM me if you want to talk more. You clearly want to do the right things and help your dog.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Hey regarding trainers:

Those are the ones who is close enough and has the time to help me:...

Dog Savvy ? Welcome to Dog Savvy (private consultation and sessions)
Best Dog Trainers Toronto :: Toronto Dog Trainers (leadership program)
Fangs But No Fangs Canine Behavioral Consulting Services - Your dog isn't your adversary, don't train him like one (haven't told me their plans yet)

Any advice on how to select one is greatly appreciated!


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> We have listened to what you think your problem is, most that have posted just don't agree with it.


Regarding those other puppies might not be normal, simple statistics tell us that the chance of the majority of 30 being the minority in a larger population is really slim. But anyway hopefully we can agree to disagree and settle as that


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> Regarding those other puppies might not be normal, simple statistics tell us that the chance of the majority of 30 being the minority in a larger population is really slim. But anyway hopefully we can agree to disagree and settle as that


The only thing we know is your opinion of those puppies, not the evaluation of a professional.

I will agree to disagree on your evaluation.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Steve Strom said:


> Thats why the distance is helpful. You need to keep her out and around everything, but keep her out of situations where she's bothered and thinking too much. You don't want her worrying about getting along with this dog or that one. She doesn't need contact with every person you see. Let her learn to be indifferent to those things and focus on you.


Hey thanks for the tips.



Deb said:


> She does sense your nervousness, it's hard to hide from a dog. When you see a dog and your stress goes way up, so does hers. So you kind of have yourselves going in a circle. You probably go out the door worrying and stressing over 'what ifs'- what if we run into stray dogs? What if one attacks us? Now she is picking up on that which is where the circle happens.
> 
> A lot of handlers use peppermint altoids or peppermint candy to help. Try that and see if you and she can stay calmer on your walks.


I was thinking pepper spray but peppermint sounds healthier lol. I will try to not be nervous around other dogs. That incident with neighour's dog is the only one so far where I get chased so persistently by a dog, not fun lol.



TwoBigEars said:


> My suggestions for now:
> 
> -no more greetings or play with other dogs, on leash or off leash, period. Unless you know the other dog very well and Baymax has had positive encounters with that dog previously. Reactivity can also happen when a dog is used to being able to play with others often, but is unable to such as being on leash and unable to reach the other dog. The dog becomes frustrated at not being able to play and this turns into that kind of reactive aggression.
> 
> ...


Hey thanks for all the tips! Any further tips on engagement would be appreciated! We used to play with fetch, but members here let me know that fetching balls this early could cause joint injuries. But other than fetch the only thing she is interested in is chasing me and biting on my gloves (though she knows that when I am bare handed or wears non-soccer gloves, rough housing is a big NO). Is there any other play that is more human-friendly lol? She is not too interested in tug of war, and we are still working on running short distance together as she tends to trip me over.


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The only thing we know is your opinion of those puppies, not the evaluation of a professional.
> 
> I will agree to disagree on your evaluation.


OK, let see if you guys can agree on which one of the three professionals is the best!
Dog Savvy ? Welcome to Dog Savvy
Best Dog Trainers Toronto :: Toronto Dog Trainers
Fangs But No Fangs Canine Behavioral Consulting Services - Your dog isn't your adversary, don't train him like one


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> OK, let see if you guys can agree on which one of the three professionals is the best!
> Dog Savvy ? Welcome to Dog Savvy
> Best Dog Trainers Toronto :: Toronto Dog Trainers
> Fangs But No Fangs Canine Behavioral Consulting Services - Your dog isn't your adversary, don't train him like one


Are there any local clubs you can touch base with?


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Are there any local clubs you can touch base with?


Unfortunately no. All the clubs I can search out are in the suburbs, and because I don't have a driver's license, it takes me 1 hour and 55min to get to the closest one by transport.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

JunYue97 said:


> Unfortunately no. All the clubs I can search out are in the suburbs, and because I don't have a driver's license, it takes me 1 hour and 55min to get to the closest one by transport.


Can you call one and get a recommendation for a trainer in your area?


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Can you call one and get a recommendation for a trainer in your area?


Ok makes sense. I will try tmr morning.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

JunYue97 said:


> OK, let see if you guys can agree on which one of the three professionals is the best!
> Dog Savvy ? Welcome to Dog Savvy
> Best Dog Trainers Toronto :: Toronto Dog Trainers
> Fangs But No Fangs Canine Behavioral Consulting Services - Your dog isn't your adversary, don't train him like one


I don't think you have a problem Jun, just that you don't have experience. What I'd worry about with all of these is that you'd end up with a bunch of goofy ideas instead of simply teaching your pup to sit. See if you can find someone that can help you with basic obedience and handling skills. Maybe someone who's done some formal ob with different dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

None of those 3 blow me away. #2 promises hundred percent offleash control with no mention of methods so I am going to guess Koehler, e collar or the like. You might ask him what his methods are. I would say ask to see his dogs and see if they appear animated and relaxed or shut down but I am not sure you have the knowledge to tell the difference. I doubt very seriously that a heavy hand would be good for this pup. Though if his dogs are as good as he says they are they could be useful to reintroducing your pup to other dogs down the road. 

Of the two positive trainers I probably lean toward the third on your list...nothing too preachy. The first one is a CPDT which means her apprenticeship was verified and she passed a written test on knowledge. I wasn't moved by the blurb on her website...


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

She just did her first submissive urination today. We just went out for her to potty 45min ago and she met head-to-head at the elevator door with another dog (looks like a lab to me) when she exited the elevator (that dog and owner wanted to enter the elevator I was going out). The dog was definitely friendly and obedient and did not pay her too much attention except relaxedly wagging tails but my pup sniffed and urined on the floor right away. Her ears were flat and she looked excited but scared to me. 



Steve Strom said:


> I don't think you have a problem Jun, just that you don't have experience. What I'd worry about with all of these is that you'd end up with a bunch of goofy ideas instead of simply teaching your pup to sit. See if you can find someone that can help you with basic obedience and handling skills. Maybe someone who's done some formal ob with different dogs.


They all claim they have lots of experience training different dogs. In fact, even three random people I met in the elevators of my building claim they are experienced trainers who have trained lots of K9s, though all of them were surprised when I used clickers as they did not know what clickers were. It is hard to see who really has the skills and who doesn't nowadays as everyone advertises themselves lavishly.



Thecowboysgirl said:


> None of those 3 blow me away. #2 promises hundred percent offleash control with no mention of methods so I am going to guess Koehler, e collar or the like. You might ask him what his methods are. I would say ask to see his dogs and see if they appear animated and relaxed or shut down but I am not sure you have the knowledge to tell the difference. I doubt very seriously that a heavy hand would be good for this pup. Though if his dogs are as good as he says they are they could be useful to reintroducing your pup to other dogs down the road.
> 
> Of the two positive trainers I probably lean toward the third on your list...nothing too preachy. The first one is a CPDT which means her apprenticeship was verified and she passed a written test on knowledge. I wasn't moved by the blurb on her website...


Hey thanks for the inputs.

I am seriously thinking to do a consultation with all of them before deciding to settle on one. None of them is willing to chat up my dog's issues in details before I pay apparently. In fact, #2 is the most personal so far. He actually chats with me about my dog for half an hour and ask me to describe my dog in details to him instead of just sending me a link to fill out a Google doc questionnaire.

I feel all of them seem to deal with aggressive dogs more instead of fearful-submissive excitable dogs though, everyone seems to specialize in aggressive dogs


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I'd be googling any club. Look at an obedience club, or German Shepherd club, or agility club. It doesn't necessarily need to be a shutzhund club.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

If you can get consultation appts (do any offer free consults)? Try as many of them as you can afford.

A good pure positive trainer might be fine for this issue...especially if you are already using a clicker with this puppy? 

Everyone in the elevator WILL be a "dog trainer", even ones who make money at it aren't necessarily any good...that is why it is so important to vet your trainer. If you meet them see if any of them can lay out a sensible counter conditioning/desensitization plan or has experience applying BAT protocoll because that might work well on this pup too,


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Hey there,

Firstly, I have contacted several clubs, and they have given me some trainers' contacts. But they are generally very far from me, I contacted some of those recommendations that are at least within reasonable distance from me (1 and half hour drive) today and let's see if anyone can serve my area. There are really no clubs near me, as I am very downtown and the land price is high, so a dog club which needs lots of space but does not have lots of sources of income does not survive where I live.

Regarding trainers for now:
Best Dog Trainers Toronto :: Toronto Dog Trainers is booked in for Friday
Dog Training Toronto - When Hounds Fly Dog Training consulataion is booked in for next Thur (this is where I have group class with)
Workshops ? The Toronto Centre for Canine Education waitlisted for Recall, Impulse Control, Polite Walking workshops with here

The reasons I chose those three for now are 1) seems both the most personal and professional during our conversation 2) has experience with my pup already 3) I like their specific workshops, and since I am on waitlist anyway, hopefully by the time I can go to class, my pup will be no problems with dogs again. I am also thinking of getting into a group off-leash walking class with her after she gets good enough, but that is in distant future.
And unfortunately all consultations cost, none is free so I do not plan on consulting with all of them after all. For reference, #1 costs double of nearly all other trainers' consultations I searched up, so I have hope in him from his price.

*Need advice regarding this:*
Firstly my pup is not attacked again so no worries there. But another buyer from that breeder of my pup contacted me today and he was thinking of arranging a play-date for our pups. Here is the story... He and I are both Chinese, and because his English was not good at all, I became his interpreter with the breeder when we coincidentally met at the breeder's place during pick up. Both of us stayed at the breeder's place for an hour to watch the pups play, my pup and his (the second boy born in the litter of 8 or 9) got along really well. That man and I got along pretty well as well so we exchanged contact information, thinking we can have mini family reunion in the future. He lives in suburbs and I live in downtown, so we are not really close but not too bad. And we regularly chat and exchange pics of our dogs with each other, always thinking of letting them play again some day.

However he told me his pup was attacked by a neighbour's off-leash pit bull mix (he confirms it has a typical pit bull look, so I am gonna trust him despite pit bulls are banned in ontario) during their walk 3 weeks ago (he told me he picked up his dog immediately after) and since then his boy got aggressive with dogs. He told me his pup would lunge and bark really loud non-stop at dogs he met, though he told me his pup did not snarl his teeth and he restrained his pup when meeting other dogs so his dog has not had any close contact with another dog since that incident and we don't know how he will react if he gets close enough. 

So now he is thinking of arranging a play-date between his pup and my pup as they got along so well, but I am a bit worried about my pup's reaction to this. They got along really well at 8 weeks and they are siblings but I am not sure if they will get along again now at 4 months. 

So help and advice? I don't think that man can benefit from normal training classes and private trainer as he can not understand english...and Chinese people directly coming from mainland don't work dog training jobs.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

None of these trainers seem worth the money.

Didn't someone on this board have a recommendation? Carm maybe?


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## JunYue97 (Aug 17, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> None of these trainers seem worth the money.
> 
> Didn't someone on this board have a recommendation? Carm maybe?


Yes 2 trainers have been recommended to me by members of the forum, 1 by my vet, and 2 by dog clubs' presidents. But all of them are way too far from me (most of them I can't even reach with public transit), and from the responses I get so far, they don't serve my area for private trainings.

Since I have already booked those consultations I will just go ahead and see what they are worth, and hopefully I can avoid travelling for hours on transit.


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