# Why are people so close minded?



## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

It seems as if these days no one seems to want to hear or accpet a viewpoint or truth that differs from theirs. And when it cones to dogs, people are so ignorant. I know because I used to be one of these people. I came into these forums thinking I knew lots about dogs. Then I came into these forums and realized I bought into a lot of common misconceptions and assumptions about dogs. I mean when people who have had dogs all their lifes and have trained and titled their dogs tell me I'm wrong, then I probably am wrong. Had to swallow my ego at some point.

However people on Facebook groups, and in person seem to be ignorant to do so. Let me list some common misconceptions I see.

*It's all in how you raise them, and if you see a badly behaved dog you always blame the owner.*
While how you raise a dog does play a big role in how a dog turns out there are other factors. Breed is one of them, but so is a dog's genetics, drives, nerves and temperament. With those things into account you will never be able to take a Golden Retriever that loves everyone and turn him into a personal protection dog no matter how hard you try. There's a reason there are different breeds bred to do different things and breeds that are often suggested for different tasks. Speaking of genetics.

*Genetics don't really matter*
They matter a lot. They're the reason breeds and dogs who perform different tasks exist. I am not super knowledgeable in this field but there are other people who are. Knowledge of the importance of genetics is what separates a Reputable Breeder who understands them vs. a guy who breeds because he'll get money from puppies (BYB). As previously mentioned, people throw around "it's all in how you raise them" but if two overly anxious an fearful dogs breed there's a good chance the puppies will be that way. Raising them won't change that.

*My dog barks at everything and is always on the lookout. I heard the wind blowing and the leaves made a funny sound and my dog went nuts. When my dog sees another dog he goes nuts and starts barking. He barks at lots of people which means they are sketchy and untrustworthy. He is the most protective dog and will take a bullet for me!*
*sigh* this is unfortunately a very common misconception about dogs that lots of people believe in. Barking dog means the dog is progective and that someone, whether it be a dog or person is not trustworthy and the dog is keeping an eye out. No this means a completely different thing, it means the dog is fearful and poorly socialized. The dog is scared and is making himself out to be big and scary hoping to deter the threat away. He's looking out for himself, not you. Unfortunately mine has fallen victim to this. For some reason, he gets reactive when he sees a flat faced breed, fighting breed, and docked or unnatural tails (Pugs). He's ackwardly reactive towards pugs and it might be because of all of their unnatural features and since I didn't have him around those kind of dogs. He seems to be scared and doesn't seem to like dogs with these features. Every time you tell someone that their dog is fearful and not protective, they look at you like if you're stupid.

*Positive Training is the proper way to train dogs, anything else is lazy training and the use of corrections is abuse. Prong collars and e collars are abuse.*
This is another one that triggers people when you prove them wrong no matter how much experience you have. I've gone off in another threat about this one and don't feel like going off anymore so I'll just leave this here.







*SPAY AND NEUTER. It's the responsible thing to do and your dog will be so much healthier and happier.*
For some reason, people associate lots of problem behavior with a dog being inact. That's not always the case. It can go both ways, and you can have happy and healthy inact dogs. Rescues, shelters and other groups of similar agendas will often inform you of the health risks of inact dogs but they don't tell you of the other risks that come with altering a dog. Which are numerous. They also mention that altering dogs will reduce overpopulation, and while that is a serious matter, not every owner of an inact dog plans to breed it.

*My dog fights and bullies other dogs who don't submit to him. He is in charge and dogs always wanna fight him because he doesn't submit. He is an alpha dog.*
This is one that I unfortunately believed and fell for and even made a thread way back about. Turns out it meant something else. Don't remember what it was but it meant that my dog was not an Alpha like I thought he was.


I've been meaning to write this thread and I knew I had some other common misconceptions, but I ran out of them so if anyone has some to name let me know.


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

I know what you mean. I recently closed my FB account and and have always avoided social media.


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

I think you are doing good by learning and implementing knowledge learned. You are also spreading your knowledge ++. People are closed minded for sure but, if you help one person with their dog and issues all those close minded people will be forgotten and then you will be even better and educating people. You are right though. I joined wanting to learn about the breed but I ended up changing my whole training philosophy. A hybrid if you will. I learn from here more than I contribute. I just try and post pics of Jupiter with the kids to showcase the awesomeness of the breed with children and I try and keep my pics fun. Ill try to think and add a misconception if I can think of one.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

The one misconception that really bothers me is one that you have already stated. I hear people saying constantly, "certain breeds aren't aggressive. It's all about how the owner raises them!"

While this is true to a degree, people seem unwilling to accept that fact that some breeds are more prone to aggression, no matter how you raise them. I used certain breeds as the example because I hear it about them the most. I always try to explain to people that an aggressive dog might truly be aggressive. I try to explain how the parents' temperaments affect the dog. I try to explain that their dog being a doberman pinscher makes it more likely (NOT guaranteed) to be aggressive than a lab or golden retriever. People continue to restate that it is all how you raise the dog.

Obviously, there are lots and lots of dogs within "aggressive" breeds that are unbelievably sweet and wouldn't hurt a fly, but that doesn't change the fact that the base temperament of your dog really can't be changed, no matter how you raise the dog. The best owner who does everything right, puts tons of time into training, feeding properly, socializing, doing everything possible for their dog, may still end up with an aggressive dog. It is not always about how the dog is raised.

** I removed your specific breed reference since we no longer allow any reference to that specific "grouping" of dogs. It caused too many nasty post and discussions. ADMIN ***


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Very true, Pytheis! Genetics DOES play a role! A certain breed was bred for a certain purpose [can't mention the name here] and to expect this breed to be 100% non-aggressive is delusional.

I have rescued 4 GSDs since the mid 1980's. Three of these dogs were wonderful pets, and one became my Hearing Ear dog, and likely save my life one night. The fourth one was dog-aggressive, attacked and injured 2 dogs, then attacked and killed a toy breed dog when I accidentally left a gate open. I had her euthanized after that. It broke my heart, but it was the right thing to do.


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## Pytheis (Sep 23, 2016)

Also, I just realized that I shouldn't have specified a breed. I apologize for that, and it won't happen again.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

This forum is amazing for me, personally. I love that the knowledge is simply that - knowledge. Whether or not you choose to accept it and bring it into your repertoire is up to you, but you'll lose out on a lot if you don't take an open and critical mindset. I've also changed my own personal beliefs a LOT over time - adopt vs breeders, spat/neuter, "it's how you raise them"... heck, basically everything you've listed I've changed my opinion on because of what I've learned over the past few years lurking on this forum. 

It really makes you appreciate the breeders and trainers who put in an exceptional amount of time and effort in producing or training for healthy, sound, and capable dogs.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, if you want others to be open, you have to be open too. I find this site very close-minded when it comes to training collars. They believe that some dogs require them and that is the end to it. Others believe that they can get better results with one, even if it is not an absolute necessity. It is wrong (close-minded) to believe that they are not necessary, but some people might require one; but it is not close-minded to believe that your dog is too strong, has too much drive, is too hard, is too stubborn, is too alpha/dominant to be trained effectively without one.

I have seen many dogs that do not belong in protection work doing it in various videos. To me this isn't cute and it isn't awesome. To me it is pounding a square peg into a round hole, and the peg is the dog. Training a GR to do bitework, sorry, that isn't what they were made for. Why would we do that. A fellow on here was teaching GSDs to hunt. I don't really like that either. A hunting dog, a pointer naturally, instinctively points. A setter -- that is instinct, you only have to see a baby puppy lock up in a natural set to know that it is instinctive. I know less about hounds, but I don't see the need to take a shepherd and expect it to hunt. Sure it would love to run through woods and brush collecting ticks and drinking lepto-filled water, sure. But they aren't a breed that would set or point or even retrieve, and they aren't natural pack-dogs, like a pack of fox hounds. Some dogs pack up better than others. They certainly aren't dogs that should be set on wild hogs. If they kick up a rabbit, they will chase it given the opportunity, and some will chase deer -- that should always be discouraged, it can get your dog killed. So why try to make a hunting dog out of a shepherd? Or a GR who has been bred to have a soft mouth, so as not to harm the bird when it retrieves to do bitework. 

Irritating, for sure. But a badly behaved GR could be in how you raise them. That it isn't going to shine in IPO does not mean it's how you raised it. And if you have a biting GR, chances are that is bad breeding, because a GR should have very little natural aggression, it has been effectively bred out of them, to make them what they are. Where GSDs have natural aggression, and are bred for it. So a GR who is biting people might be more than handler error. So can a GSD, but a lot of the time handler error is the problem with GSDs. People get a dog that has high energy and drive and expect it to live in a box for a good part of the day and part of the night, and then they expect it to lie quietly in the living room the rest of the time. They buy a dog that has the potential to be a protector and an independent worker bee, and then they provide nothing that stimulates the dog's instinct, athleticism, intelligence, etc. Too often people get a dog they have no business owning, and yes, the dog may display behavior that is due to the owner's ignorance. It is NOT always due to bad breeding/poor genetics. But it can be.

The problem is that few people are willing to see their dogs as anything other than how they see them. They believe the dog is strong-willed and dominant, and that is how they are going to treat them. If someone tells the person that the dog is soft and shutting down, and what they are doing to the dog is not working and making things worse, they get angry. 

Frankly, too many people are unable to hold their own in a civil argument, because they take any level of disagreement personally. They quickly throw up their wall of defense and start shooting insults or start blubbering poor me, why are you so mean to me? 

Ah well, again it is way too late, and if I don't shut up soon, I'll say something I regret. But there are two sides to that open-mindedness. A lot of people want everyone else to be open-minded, particularly when they disagree with them. But that is as far as they can go. They can't be open minded, at least not on some things.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I think my opinion is not that "some dogs require" certain tools, but that sometimes it is the best tool for the job.

I also don't begrudge anybody anything if it is working for them and it isn't abusive to the dog. What I mean is:if you can achieve 100 % offleash reliability with no e collar proof, if you can get a big strong energetic dog to walk gently on a flat collar with no training collar GREAT! Good for you. I would love to see you in action and I don't mean that sarcastically. If you can get real results with zero tools, results that last, then hats off to you. 

I will just say this, it is absolutely possible to be using prong collars, e collars, anything else without abusing your dog or even handling them harshly at all. It is also more than possible to abuse your dog with those and any other training tool.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Lastly about bitey goldens. I bet there are at least as many backyard bred genetic catastrophes of that breed as there are GSD. and/or puppy mill goldens. In those cases I bet there are all manner of messed up dogs that really aren't the owner'should fault.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Usually the more you have been exposed to the more open minded your are, conversely the less you have been exposed to the more resolute you are in your ignorance. 
I see EXPERTS on breeding that have bred a couple litters or never bred a dog at all, experts in problem solving that have only problem solved their own dogs or better yet never problem solved any dogs, experts in training and training tools that have never used the tool or done that the training being discussed. Experts in all types of the breed, but have never raised/trained all of the lines, experts in protection and its effects and couldn't read a protection dog if it was in block letters. 
i have no problem with folks commenting on things, but when you see people giving advice and admonishing people about something they have little or no experience in.....well that is recipe for misguided beliefs/opinions.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I agree with what Cliffs on said mostly, I mean, I have found that to be true for me at least as much as I understand what he is saying. I have had philosophical beliefs on training that got blown to bits when I got the dog that wouldn't work for and I had to go back to the drawing board.

I still basically want to use reward, motivation and proper guidance to get the dog to do as much as possible.

But I also had an interesting experience recently with supervising some offleash dog interactions/play, where leashes, toys and food could not be used at all and I enjoyed it because it took away a lot of stuff and made me look at the whole thing differently. it was a great learning experience. I felt like I came away with something new and very useful, keeping order in offleash dogs without a lot of motivational stuff I like to use and I chose not to use e collars because I felt it wasn't appropriate. 

I still dont care for a couple of things: training which seems to be too heavy handed, where the dog becomes suppressed or robotic. Cookie cutter dog training where every dog is handled exactly the same regardless of how they respond. 

Maybe one day I will encounter the dog or reason why I will change my mind about those?


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

selzer said:


> Well, if you want others to be open, you have to be open too. I find this site very close-minded when it comes to training collars. They believe that some dogs require them and that is the end to it. Others believe that they can get better results with one, even if it is not an absolute necessity. It is wrong (close-minded) to believe that they are not necessary, but some people might require one; but it is not close-minded to believe that your dog is too strong, has too much drive, is too hard, is too stubborn, is too alpha/dominant to be trained effectively without one.
> 
> I have seen many dogs that do not belong in protection work doing it in various videos. To me this isn't cute and it isn't awesome. To me it is pounding a square peg into a round hole, and the peg is the dog. Training a GR to do bitework, sorry, that isn't what they were made for. Why would we do that. A fellow on here was teaching GSDs to hunt. I don't really like that either. A hunting dog, a pointer naturally, instinctively points. A setter -- that is instinct, you only have to see a baby puppy lock up in a natural set to know that it is instinctive. I know less about hounds, but I don't see the need to take a shepherd and expect it to hunt. Sure it would love to run through woods and brush collecting ticks and drinking lepto-filled water, sure. But they aren't a breed that would set or point or even retrieve, and they aren't natural pack-dogs, like a pack of fox hounds. Some dogs pack up better than others. They certainly aren't dogs that should be set on wild hogs. If they kick up a rabbit, they will chase it given the opportunity, and some will chase deer -- that should always be discouraged, it can get your dog killed. So why try to make a hunting dog out of a shepherd? Or a GR who has been bred to have a soft mouth, so as not to harm the bird when it retrieves to do bitework.
> 
> ...



I agree. Nicely put.

I will say, predetermined Genetics is one part of it but not the whole story. There are people, good wonderful people who just cant raise a good dog (even if they are loving and spoiling the dog etc). Here is one I'm perplexed about.

My father and Law has an 8 year old Yorkie Poo 17 pounds or so lol that could be on the Bad Dogs show on Animal Planet. This dog is very well taken care of but is a mental nutcase to how it was raised i think. It resource guards everything and will bite/nip, jump up, scratch and basically has to be put away when we come and visit. However, we pet sit from time to time and this little dog gets a BOOTCAMP on just how to be a dog. It changes her for a short time, she can be around my kids and just chills/hangs out and is one of our pack for a little bit. At first they thought I abused their dog because it wasn't being its rambunctious self. I could have raised this dog to be a good pet and family dog when its currently not the case. Now, as humans my In laws are the best but i dont think they understand how to raise a good dog. A owner/handeler that questions himself can/will lead to disaster. the reason I dont think its a fluke... they just got a bad dog.. is because I see the dogs potential. Also, in the 12 years ive been apart of the family,my FIL's mom has had 2 dogs as pets, showcasing the same aggression and insecurities that his yorkie-poo shows. We look at dog genetics for answers to a lot of questions when human genetics and tendencies never gave that animal a chance.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Good point, Casto! Yes, I'd say most badly behaved dogs are the result of their owners not knowing how to train. A much smaller percentage is due to genetics. And if you get genetics AND bad/no training together... LOOK OUT! 

I ran a boarding kennel for 6 years, and was amazed to find there are people out there who just don't have any desire to train their dogs. They just let them be dogs! [smh]


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I enjoy hearing about (or reading about) different people doing all sorts of very different things with this breed.

There are plenty of things I don't have the resources and time to try, myself. But I like watching and hearing about them. 

It grows my appreciation for the versatility of the dogs.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

because it is easy.

and because you can belong to a really big club.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

People tend to get close-minded when they feel they're being lectured at, or when the only information they see and decide is true is information that is widely disseminated and appears to be credible by virtue of being widely disseminated. Follow that with having some random person on the internet/in real life tell them everything they've ever read is wrong and said random person is clearly right, and you have yourself a recipe for some major heel-digging.

Want to change minds? Don't lecture at people. They don't like it and won't listen.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kyrielle said:


> People tend to get close-minded when they feel they're being lectured at, or when the only information they see and decide is true is information that is widely disseminated and appears to be credible by virtue of being widely disseminated. Follow that with having some random person on the internet/in real life tell them everything they've ever read is wrong and said random person is clearly right, and you have yourself a recipe for some major heel-digging.
> 
> Want to change minds? Don't lecture at people. They don't like it and won't listen.


This is actually true. When you have dogs that other people would love to own, those who want to learn, will ask and when they ask, they will listen. 

Everyone else, usually just talks to hear how wonderful they are, and when people disagree, they take it as though the speaker thinks they are not wonderful, and then everyone is butt-hurt. It's like you really can't have a conversation these days because people don't want their world shaken by a different opinion. 

However, there are moments when puppies' lives are at stake and sometimes you have to divulge information, lecture people whether they want to hear it or not, in the hopes that that one person will do the right thing with their puppy or puppies, get them to the vet, feed them something different, etc.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

WIBackpacker said:


> I enjoy hearing about (or reading about) different people doing all sorts of very different things with this breed.
> 
> There are plenty of things I don't have the resources and time to try, myself. But I like watching and hearing about them.
> 
> It grows my appreciation for the versatility of the dogs.


Yes, this. All of this. It's fun to hear/read about this stuff because it plants seeds for me: What sounds like a ton of fun? What is a "no way in heck" activity? What would my dog enjoy?

My current dog is my learning dog. I've decided I'll just embrace that. We've done obedience (took a break after her Beginner Novice title, but I want to pick that back up with a different club and new approach), gave herding a try at a fun day (based on her lighting up like, "OMG IT IS MEAT AND I CAN CHASE IT AND SELECT THE WEAK ONE," I don't think I have a good herding dog, but I want to do a Herding Instinct Test just the same), she's my conformation practice dog, we do Nosework, and I really want to get her into tracking. 

I don't have time to try all the things, but reading about things other people do with their dogs - and do well, and love doing with their dogs - is inspiring and gives me things to think about.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yes, so many things to do with our dogs, that are in tune with their instincts, athleticism, intelligence, and willingness to work with humans. Not every shepherd is a good candidate for herding, I guess if the prey drive is higher than the desire to please and work with the owner when faced with sheep. But there are so many venues that the skill-set of the GSD fits, there is no reason to make a hunting dog out of them, just like there is no reason to make a protection dog out of a Golden Retriever. 

I think sometimes people get themselves in a bad place because they buy a puppy with the desire to do a thing, and the puppy is just not the right little guy for that job. When you have a hoard of dogs, if the little guy isn't isn't right for therapy work, you can do agility with him, and therapy with another. No big deal. Babsy was my obedience dog, Jenna was my agility dog, Heidi was made for Rally. Rushie was a therapy dog. Joy I did conformation, Rally, and Agility with. Babsy I did herding with. I am sure if I wanted to haul around wet dogs, Bear could have been a dock diver. They have strengths, and when we have our own ideal in our head, and expect that one pup to conform to that ideal, I dunno, I just think it is that much easier to cater what you want to do with your dog by who the dog is, that to make the dog into what you have built up in your mind for the dog to be.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

selzer said:


> Yes, so many things to do with our dogs, that are in tune with their instincts, athleticism, intelligence, and willingness to work with humans. Not every shepherd is a good candidate for herding, I guess if the prey drive is higher than the desire to please and work with the owner when faced with sheep. But there are so many venues that the skill-set of the GSD fits, there is no reason to make a hunting dog out of them, just like there is no reason to make a protection dog out of a Golden Retriever.
> 
> I think sometimes people get themselves in a bad place because they buy a puppy with the desire to do a thing, and the puppy is just not the right little guy for that job. When you have a hoard of dogs, if the little guy isn't isn't right for therapy work, you can do agility with him, and therapy with another. No big deal. Babsy was my obedience dog, Jenna was my agility dog, Heidi was made for Rally. Rushie was a therapy dog. Joy I did conformation, Rally, and Agility with. Babsy I did herding with. I am sure if I wanted to haul around wet dogs, Bear could have been a dock diver. They have strengths, and when we have our own ideal in our head, and expect that one pup to conform to that ideal, I dunno, I just think it is that much easier to cater what you want to do with your dog by who the dog is, that to make the dog into what you have built up in your mind for the dog to be.


I don't know... I think you can still enjoy things your dog was maybe not intended for, as long as you go in with realistic expectations. Is a GSD going to make a great hunting dog? Maybe not. But if you have a GSD, and you want to try it, I don't think you should be judged for it. That seems a little closed minded to me, to admonish someone for seeing what their dog does outside of what they may have been bred for. GSDs were not bred to be great at dock diving or lure coursing, but plenty of people do those things because they are fun. I just think it's great when people do SOMETHING with their dog. Even if it is not something that the dog excels at, if the dog and owner are enjoying it, what's the harm?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Yes, so many things to do with our dogs, that are in tune with their instincts, athleticism, intelligence, and willingness to work with humans. Not every shepherd is a good candidate for herding, I guess if the prey drive is higher than the desire to please and work with the owner when faced with sheep. But there are so many venues that the skill-set of the GSD fits, there is no reason to make a hunting dog out of them, just like there is no reason to make a protection dog out of a Golden Retriever.


And...? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Are you trying to say that things like nosework and tracking and on up through SAR are not a good choice for GSDs because those are hunting dog activities? I thought the point of the breed was that they can do many different things. Yes, they were herding dogs originally, but they are working dogs.

My dog was in and out an unusual number of times last night, so I'm running on a series of two-hour naps and a lot of coffee. I might have to ask for a bit of indulgence!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

GypsyGhost said:


> I don't know... I think you can still enjoy things your dog was maybe not intended for, as long as you go in with realistic expectations. Is a GSD going to make a great hunting dog? Maybe not. But if you have a GSD, and you want to try it, I don't think you should be judged for it. That seems a little closed minded to me, to admonish someone for seeing what their dog does outside of what they may have been bred for. GSDs were not bred to be great at dock diving or lure coursing, but plenty of people do those things because they are fun. I just think it's great when people do SOMETHING with their dog. Even if it is not something that the dog excels at, if the dog and owner are enjoying it, what's the harm?


What's the harm? Well, in making the GR breed, they built a mouth that is very soft, soft enough that the dog does not injure the bird further that it retrieves. Same for an English Setter. When they retrieve, they have a very soft mouth. Generations of breeding have been done to create a dog that points, retrieves, sets, and those instincts used for that were bred on, and any aggressiveness was bred out. Asking such a dog to then bite and aggress/protect is going against the genetics, goes against what they were put together for, what was built into them. 

Now of course we are concerned with shepherds. Shepherds have been bred for generations on the traits of animals that herd their prey and then take them down one by one. Only that of course would not work for a sheep-herding dog. You cannot have the dog attack the herd. So these early sheep herding dogs were bred for their herding tendencies, but bred away from their tendency to attack/kill the animals they herd, could be cows, sheep, ducks, -- any farm animals. Sometimes GSDs do attack rabbits or rats, and we don't have to discourage it, but we shouldn't expect them to eat what they kill, or even to kill it. Sometimes they just chase and catch and that is enough to kill the animal. Mostly though, I think we have bred out of the dog the desire to chase and kill animals, and for a herding dog that is essential. Why try and wake that up. The dog gets loose and it chases the neighbor's horses or chickens, or runs deer and it will get a bullet. There are plenty of hunting dogs out there that have both the instinct and the skill-set for whatever hunting you want to do.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> And...? I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
> 
> Are you trying to say that things like nosework and tracking and on up through SAR are not a good choice for GSDs because those are hunting dog activities? I thought the point of the breed was that they can do many different things. Yes, they were herding dogs originally, but they are working dogs.
> 
> My dog was in and out an unusual number of times last night, so I'm running on a series of two-hour naps and a lot of coffee. I might have to ask for a bit of indulgence!


There are a lot of different types of hunting. Yes, GSDs can be used to track -- hunt, mostly humans. I am more concerned with the idea of a dog being used as a bird dog, because that is instinctive -- the setting and pointing, even the retrieving to a point, or a GSD being encouraged to chase down and kill game like rabbits, hogs, raccoons, etc., because with a SAR dog you don't want a dog attacking what it hunts, and certainly a herding dog shouldn't be used to tear apart game. Those hounds that run together after the fox, rabbits, *****, they have a different skill-set.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Now of course we are concerned with shepherds. Shepherds have been bred for generations on the traits of animals that herd their prey and then take them down one by one. Only that of course would not work for a sheep-herding dog. You cannot have the dog attack the herd. So these early sheep herding dogs were bred for their herding tendencies, but bred away from their tendency to attack/kill the animals they herd, could be cows, sheep, ducks, -- any farm animals. Sometimes GSDs do attack rabbits or rats, and we don't have to discourage it, but we shouldn't expect them to eat what they kill, or even to kill it. Sometimes they just chase and catch and that is enough to kill the animal. Mostly though, I think we have bred out of the dog the desire to chase and kill animals, and for a herding dog that is essential. Why try and wake that up. The dog gets loose and it chases the neighbor's horses or chickens, or runs deer and it will get a bullet. There are plenty of hunting dogs out there that have both the instinct and the skill-set for whatever hunting you want to do.


Okay, but how is retrieving incompatible with being kind to the stock? It's an instinct in some dogs, but it's also a task that can be taught. It doesn't equal chasing down and killing and mangling. Should we also not do Open or Utility level obedience with our dogs because those task sets involve a directed retrieve?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

selzer said:


> What's the harm? Well, in making the GR breed, they built a mouth that is very soft, soft enough that the dog does not injure the bird further that it retrieves. Same for an English Setter. When they retrieve, they have a very soft mouth. Generations of breeding have been done to create a dog that points, retrieves, sets, and those instincts used for that were bred on, and any aggressiveness was bred out. Asking such a dog to then bite and aggress/protect is going against the genetics, goes against what they were put together for, what was built into them.
> 
> Now of course we are concerned with shepherds. Shepherds have been bred for generations on the traits of animals that herd their prey and then take them down one by one. Only that of course would not work for a sheep-herding dog. You cannot have the dog attack the herd. So these early sheep herding dogs were bred for their herding tendencies, but bred away from their tendency to attack/kill the animals they herd, could be cows, sheep, ducks, -- any farm animals. Sometimes GSDs do attack rabbits or rats, and we don't have to discourage it, but we shouldn't expect them to eat what they kill, or even to kill it. Sometimes they just chase and catch and that is enough to kill the animal. Mostly though, I think we have bred out of the dog the desire to chase and kill animals, and for a herding dog that is essential. Why try and wake that up. The dog gets loose and it chases the neighbor's horses or chickens, or runs deer and it will get a bullet. There are plenty of hunting dogs out there that have both the instinct and the skill-set for whatever hunting you want to do.


You speak as though one pet dog doing these things ruins the whole breed. Or that catastrophe is on the horizon if you take a GSD hunting. It is not like I am recommending people do off breed things with their dog and then try to pass it off as a test for breed-worthiness. Just that people should be able to have fun with their dog and not be judged for it.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> There are a lot of different types of hunting. Yes, GSDs can be used to track -- hunt, mostly humans. I am more concerned with the idea of a dog being used as a bird dog, because that is instinctive -- the setting and pointing, even the retrieving to a point, or a GSD being encouraged to chase down and kill game like rabbits, hogs, raccoons, etc., because with a SAR dog you don't want a dog attacking what it hunts, and certainly a herding dog shouldn't be used to tear apart game. Those hounds that run together after the fox, rabbits, *****, they have a different skill-set.


How stupid do we think dogs are? I'm kind of perplexed by this response because it seems to imply that the dogs are blind robots and not intelligent enough to discern much of anything. I'm confident that a good dog can tell the difference between a lost child and a squirrel.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think it depends on the dog sport or work, to how breed specific it is. 

Protection work should mostly - one might argue exclusively- be done by dogs/breeds bred for it, and specific individuals within that breed well suited for it.

But nosework, dock diving, skijor, rally, agility, lure coursing, are sports most healthy dogs can enjoy, of any breed.

Herding is also more specific to breed and type, and SAR needs a special dog-handler team because lives are potentially at stake.

Hunting- I don't like videos of shepherds and malinois hog, (deer, bear, cougar) hunting, as in running down and treeing game. I truly don't think it is in the dog's best interests. First it is extremely dangerous and I think shepherds are more "delicate" than the typical hog hunting breeds and less savvy-careful and thus prone to be killed or injured. Also, I don't like a breed (shepherd) that so enjoys biting being allowed to go after something with absolutely no owner control/command. Just a really bad idea to make this a habit in a shepherd breed. Playing with fire. 

Bird dogging it, totally fine with that. I could see that being fun with a shepherd. Not at competition level, but just as something fun to do with your dog. I also like seeing shepherds trained to track wounded game, that is a good service for everyone and limits suffering of wildlife.

So my take on it is it depends on the dog "sport" or work. The vast majority of dog sports can be enjoyed by just about any dog. With various levels of proficiency.


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

selzer said:


> What's the harm? Well, in making the GR breed, they built a mouth that is very soft, soft enough that the dog does not injure the bird further that it retrieves. Same for an English Setter. When they retrieve, they have a very soft mouth. Generations of breeding have been done to create a dog that points, retrieves, sets, and those instincts used for that were bred on, and any aggressiveness was bred out. Asking such a dog to then bite and aggress/protect is going against the genetics, goes against what they were put together for, what was built into them.
> 
> Now of course we are concerned with shepherds. Shepherds have been bred for generations on the traits of animals that herd their prey and then take them down one by one. Only that of course would not work for a sheep-herding dog. You cannot have the dog attack the herd. So these early sheep herding dogs were bred for their herding tendencies, but bred away from their tendency to attack/kill the animals they herd, could be cows, sheep, ducks, -- any farm animals. Sometimes GSDs do attack rabbits or rats, and we don't have to discourage it, but we shouldn't expect them to eat what they kill, or even to kill it. Sometimes they just chase and catch and that is enough to kill the animal. Mostly though, I think we have bred out of the dog the desire to chase and kill animals, and for a herding dog that is essential. Why try and wake that up. The dog gets loose and it chases the neighbor's horses or chickens, or runs deer and it will get a bullet. There are plenty of hunting dogs out there that have both the instinct and the skill-set for whatever hunting you want to do.


Jupiter will sniff out moles and dig them out of the ground, I have seen them dead and I have seen them Alive in his mouth. He has gotten 3 this year. I Have finally figured out the signs to stop it (its really cool to see but I dont know what they carry) Actually its SOOO cool to see. Its like a dance he does with his nose.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

I get annoyed at close minded people too. Why can't they just think like me?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> How stupid do we think dogs are? I'm kind of perplexed by this response because it seems to imply that the dogs are blind robots and not intelligent enough to discern much of anything. I'm confident that a good dog can tell the difference between a lost child and a squirrel.


Actually, dogs will certainly know the difference between a lost human (often elderly not just children) and a squirrel. But a dog that is on a track for a lost person -- very specific scent. That is scent work. If he is on a scent and suddenly he smells a rabbit or raccoon scent and that is fun fun fun too. The dog probably isn't intelligent enough to prioritize finding human or going after game. My guess is most people who do actual scent work for any purpose probably discourage any deviation into game hunting. 

If the goal is the catch of a rabbit say, then that might be higher in value than getting to play tug with its toy after a find.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Casto said:


> Jupiter will sniff out moles and dig them out of the ground, I have seen them dead and I have seen them Alive in his mouth. He has gotten 3 this year. I Have finally figured out the signs to stop it (its really cool to see but I dont know what they carry) Actually its SOOO cool to see. Its like a dance he does with his nose.


I think some dogs do rodents. I think they view them as invaders on their territory. Heck Babsy found a baby mouse and was trying to mother it. My other girls have killed a rodent here or there, but then never mutilate it or eat it. I've never seen them actually hunt moles though. I don't encourage it because, yes, wild critters often have worms or other disease.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Muskeg said:


> I think it depends on the dog sport or work, to how breed specific it is.
> 
> Protection work should mostly - one might argue exclusively- be done by dogs/breeds bred for it, and specific individuals within that breed well suited for it.
> 
> ...


This, is kind of what I was trying to say, well mostly. 

Not sure what you mean by "bird-dogging." Shepherds don't point or set -- lock on a bird and hold it with their eyes. Not sure you can train that behavior as it is instinct of specific breeds. Now retrieving, well even pointers and setters retrieve game, and I expect shepherds could excel at that as well. We train retrieving in obedience, and I can't see how any dog couldn't be taught to retrieve game that is shot down.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I think the OP was primarily about close minded and misconceptions that many people have about our breed and on training. Like would you believe that there are actual JUDGES of this breed that emphatically believe that IPO dogs are vicious dogs. I mean training that EVERY adult breedable dog in Germany must have, creates vicious dogs. That's believing that there are tens of thousands of this breed in Germany. More importantly, by being a judge or official in the breed club, how many novice people have they misled? 
I think we have a moral and breed responsibility to educate our new people about the realities of the breed as opposed to our personal likes or more importantly dislikes!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Setters aren't Retrievers, are they? I thought all they did was set and flush


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

There are a lot of activities that any dog can do regardless of breed or size. If an owner enjoys a particular sport or venue and the dog has the ability to do it then why not? I know people that have trained GSD's to retrieve and point. As a breed they may not be the most natural pointers or retrievers but they can certainly be trained to do it. A dog with nice drives may even excel at it. I don't think we should pigeon hole a dog because of breed. If a dog and owner enjoy doing an activity, then that is awesome. IMO. 

Regarding herding dogs, they do bite the animals they herd. They are selected and trained to not bite too severely and are corrected for too much aggression. Any dog with prey drive will chase animals and many given the chance will kill them. I am in the process of getting chickens and possibly ducks. Both of my GSD's will chase and kill chickens, I'm pretty sure of that. Although, they have never chased a chicken in their lives, I know my dogs. I certainly hope we don't breed out the desire to hunt, chase and capture game. While I do not hunt animals, I hunt people. I still want a dog that is willing to chase a squirell, possum or raccoon that comes into the yard. A GSD that lacks the desire to chase an animal while loose is not much of a GSD, IMO. I do not encourage my dogs to critter or chase game, but the drive that makes them want to do that is very important to a GSD. Unfortunately, most GSD's will not bite a human for real, confidently or well. That has clearly been bred out of the majority of GSD's in the US. That is why it is becoming increasingly harder and harder to find good suitable GSD's for patrol work.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My old male wanted to eat all my livestock. He and I agreed that he would not, but one of his favorite hobbies was dispensing of any smallish predator who came after the chickens. he was frighteningly good at it and basically never got hurt. So when chickens went missing, we would start doing dawn and dusk predator patrol and he would find it, whatever it was, and fix it.

He was an absurdly talented killer and he enjoyed doing it. I did not teach him to do it. I simply directed him to do it in the one way it was acceptable and useful. He understood my chickens and goats were not on the menu


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

I can see a gsd being used for upland bird hunting. They can flush pheasant, quail, ect.. and even if you should have issues with not being "soft mouthed" they can still help with locating the bird. Can other breeds do it better? Sure, but if you don't have room for another dog in the home why not give the one you have a try.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Regarding the herding instincts.....Manfred Heyne....has anyone read about his selection process for his herding dogs?
Very very eye opening stuff........


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Regarding the herding instincts.....Manfred Heyne....has anyone read about his selection process for his herding dogs?
> Very very eye opening stuff........


very familiar with this and with practical land management herders in Germany using one of the Altdeutschen hutehund -- they do not test for ball drive (that get's a belly laugh) , and it is not prey drive as you would need in a border collie .

it is instinct and attraction to the sheep and an intuitive , instinctive need to control them.

no bite ---- GRIP 

the "herding instinct" tested dogs tend to work prey - 
the German dogs were supposed to be fences, living containment systems .


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Regarding the herding instincts.....Manfred Heyne....has anyone read about his selection process for his herding dogs?
> Very very eye opening stuff........


Some very interesting reading on this site! I love the story about Mafred's herding dog knocking the decoy on his ass, after everyone laughed at Manfred and the dog!

German Shepherd Herding » The Large Flock Herding Dog ? Puppy Selection & Foundation Building


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Ha! That was a great story..... Correct me if wrong, but I thought he said that dog had never done bitework. It amazes me that the dog instinctively knew what to do without formal training....guessing it went back to gripping and downing the sheep. Tying in to being open minded, I wonder how many dog people today would be horrified at throwing a lamb in with a litter of pups to see which ones gripped the lamb correctly!


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Let me see if I can find the story...

Okay, got it! It wasn't Manfred's dog, but Nikko, a dog he was training for the woman that (I think) owns Nickelsberg Farms. http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/german-shepherd-herding/

Here's the relevant section:

This year became the year I learned to appreciate the grip and to understand exactly how gripping sheep in herding work and biting the sleeve in schutzhund protection work can exist side by side. (NOTE: In his younger years, Manfred used to title all of his herding champions to the SchHIII level — the only reason he does not do it now is because he does not have the time anymore.) 

When I first met Manfred in 1987, he had explained the use of the grip in sheep herding; why it is necessary for the dog to use it; on which areas of the sheep it is allowed to be used; and, under what circumstances it is permitted. Manfred also had his experienced herding dogs demonstrate the proper grip on command in the field so I could see what he was talking about. However, all of the talk and all of the demonstrations could never have prepared me for what I was about to see. 

The night before the Bundesleistungshüten, Manfred asked me to meet him at the sheep barn where his dogs are kenneled. From there we would take Nikko to the local schutzhund club where he would show me how Nikko does protection work. Bear in mind that Manfred only occasionally works his dogs in protection nowadays because the courage test for the HGH no longer requires biting the sleeve. However, Manfred does believe that the complete education of the herding dog should include protection work since one of the original tasks of the herding dog was to protect his flock and the shepherd from thieves and robbers. 

We got to the club and introductions were made. As I was talking to one of the members, someone else said rather disdainfully, “Look, there goes ‘the shepherd’ with his ‘shepherd’ dog — ha, ha, ha.” Meanwhile Manfred was asking the helper to do the basic schutzhund courage test which is: the helper threatens the dog with a stick from a distance of about 30 feet then the helper turns and runs away from the dog and handler for about another 30 feet; after the dog is commanded by the handler to “get him” while the helper is still running away, the helper turns and runs at the dog again threatening him with the stick; the dog must bite the helper’s sleeve with no hesitation and hold the helper until he is told to release. Manfred sent Nikko out to stop the helper. Nikko charged out, the helper turned and ran toward the dog with his stick waving. Nikko hit the sleeve so hard that the helper was laid out flat on the ground with Nikko still firmly attached to the sleeve. There was silence at first in the clubhouse and then there was loud applause. From then on, the shepherd and the shepherd dog were treated with the respect they had just earned.

As we drove Nikko back from the club, I kept asking Manfred questions about gripping and bite-work, to the point that he realized only a demonstration might possibly help me to understand. We put Nikko onto his kennel and went into the barn. 
In the barn, Manfred told me to wait in an enclosed 15’x20′ open area, which was surrounded by sheep in various pens. Manfred went downstairs and reappeared with two large 6 to 8 month old dogs sired by Luki, one of which he was hoping to keep and begin educating the following year. Neither of these dogs had had any direct contact with grown sheep before. Manfred left the dogs behind a fence outside the open area that I was in. The dogs had full view of the whole barn. Manfred lifted a large sheep out of a pen and put it in the open area. The electricity in the barn became palpable. I felt I was going to witness something primal but never expected just how powerfully primal. 
The dogs at the fence were straining to get at the sheep. Their intensity was like nothing I have ever seen before. Not one sound came out of those dogs. Their eyes were riveted on the sheep and their bodies were straining so hard against the fence I thought they would push it over. Every fiber in those dogs was straining forward toward the sheep in absolute silence. Even the sheep in the pens were watching in silence. 

Then, Manfred opened the fence. The dogs torpedoed in. The sheep tried to run, but the two dogs, one on each side of her, grabbed her by the top of the neck and flattened her to the floor. There was still no sound from either dogs or sheep. The sheep lay still with both dogs holding it firmly in their grips — they did not tear at her — they just held her tight with firm, full-mouth grips. After what seemed like an eternity to me, Manfred took one of the dogs by the collar, pulled him off the sheep and took him silently out of the area. The other dog continued to hold the sheep to the floor with the same hard grip until Manfred came back and pulled him off too.

As Manfred took the dogs back downstairs, all I could think was “Poor Manfred, he must be so embarrassed at having me see this display of uncontrolled behavior.” To my amazement, Manfred came back upstairs as proud as a peacock. I am sure my mouth was hanging open down to my knees as he told me how pleased he was with the way the dogs had handled the sheep and how proud he was that they had demonstrated the instinct he was looking for so well for me. Since neither dog had had any direct contact with the sheep since puppy testing, he said that he was not sure how well they would respond to this test. I was speechless and home I went to try to digest all of this. 
My image of the gentle shepherd was shattered, not to mention my image of the gentle shepherd dog. Yet, oddly enough, after these experiences, I found myself feeling a profoundly new and different respect for the shepherd and his dog. If I had not gotten to know, trust and respect Manfred so much before this demonstration, I probably would have chalked him off as a head case. But, for three years I had actually watched him educate his dogs EXACTLY as he preached. I saw the tremendous energy his dogs had while working. I saw his dogs’ intense attraction to the sheep. I never once saw his dogs harm any sheep, even when commanded to go into the flock and hold one for Manfred. I never once heard Manfred utter a harsh word to his dogs in the field or anywhere else. I have never seen him raise a hand, use a leash or use any thrown object to correct his dogs. I have never seen him do anything other than “guide” and encourage his dogs calmly and deliberately through their education in the field. How could I reconcile these observations of Manfred’s totally inductive teaching methods with the primal scene I witnessed in the barn? As the months passed and the shock wore off, reconciliation was easy. 

Pure prey drive, attraction to the sheep, is the energy/power source that the shepherd will transform during the course of education in the field to serve his sheep herding needs. During the test in the barn, Manfred was looking to assess the degree and quality of the pure prey drive in his dogs. What he saw, and what I hope the reader can see from my description, was an exceptionally high degree of prey drive of exceptional quality. This was demonstrated by the fact that the dogs’ drive did not decrease at all during or after, catching and gripping the sheep. The quality of the drive showed no apparent flaw in temperament. For example, the dogs showed no uncertain, defensive behavior toward the sheep — no raised hackles, no hesitation before striking the sheep, no swerving from a direct line of impact and no hectic biting of the sheep. No wonder Manfred was pleased. He looked forward to transforming this high prey energy flow into service in the field.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Setters aren't Retrievers, are they? I thought all they did was set and flush


Setters were created when they used to hunt birds by throwing nets over them. The job of the setter was to lock eyes with the bird and set -- their whole body goes rigid and intent holding the bird with their eye so the hunter could throw a net over it. 

More recently hunters have released a setter to flush the bird so they are not shooting sitting birds. And setters can also retrieve the bird. They are actually neat dogs, nice with children, soft mouthed, not too bright, but when they learn something it is learned. Pleasant dog talking about the English Setter, hunting lines. Those feathers and ears get filled with burs and fox tails, and it is a pain in the neck. But the dogs are patient and believe their people can do no wrong, so really an easy dog to own. Biggest issue with them is if they like to run more than hunt. The experts say, neuter and make a pet out of them.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> There are a lot of activities that any dog can do regardless of breed or size. If an owner enjoys a particular sport or venue and the dog has the ability to do it then why not? I know people that have trained GSD's to retrieve and point. As a breed they may not be the most natural pointers or retrievers but they can certainly be trained to do it. A dog with nice drives may even excel at it. I don't think we should pigeon hole a dog because of breed. If a dog and owner enjoy doing an activity, then that is awesome. IMO.
> 
> Regarding herding dogs, they do bite the animals they herd. They are selected and trained to not bite too severely and are corrected for too much aggression. Any dog with prey drive will chase animals and many given the chance will kill them. I am in the process of getting chickens and possibly ducks. Both of my GSD's will chase and kill chickens, I'm pretty sure of that. Although, they have never chased a chicken in their lives, I know my dogs. I certainly hope we don't breed out the desire to hunt, chase and capture game. While I do not hunt animals, I hunt people. I still want a dog that is willing to chase a squirell, possum or raccoon that comes into the yard. A GSD that lacks the desire to chase an animal while loose is not much of a GSD, IMO. I do not encourage my dogs to critter or chase game, but the drive that makes them want to do that is very important to a GSD. Unfortunately, most GSD's will not bite a human for real, confidently or well. That has clearly been bred out of the majority of GSD's in the US. That is why it is becoming increasingly harder and harder to find good suitable GSD's for patrol work.


The GSD is not supposed to bite the animals they herd. Grip maybe, never bite. They are big enough to protect the flock from larger predators, and to move the flock without biting. 

Border Collies move them with their eyes. So do Pyrean Shepherds. Probably others. 

Cattle dogs, Corgies, and maybe Shelties do nip at the ankles to get the animals to move where they want them to go. For cattle dogs and corgies going to pet homes, their owners need to understand that about herding, because they will herd children, and that can include rougher mouthiness than most adults like with their kids. 

GSDs, I think are better with kids (in general) precisely because it is in their nature to herd but not bite in the process.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Historically, the HGH herding test in Germany always had bitework as part of the test. Actually, the training director of the club I was in, in the early 2000s used to be the decoy for the only HGH trial that was held in United States at that time. That's why when I read that protection/ bitework traits aren't necessary in the breed, I know the individual has limited knowledge of the history of the breed. Because in the only two tests that were acceptable for breeding suitability,( Sch and HGH), both requires the dog to do bitework from bad guy.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Most of my GSDs have tried to herd me by bumping me from behind. I put a stop to it, because anything an animal herd is by definition, beneath it in the pecking order!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

cliffson1 said:


> Historically, the HGH herding test in Germany always had bitework as part of the test. Actually, the training director of the club I was in, in the early 2000s used to be the decoy for the only HGH trial that was held in United States at that time. That's why when I read that protection/ bitework traits aren't necessary in the breed, I know the individual has limited knowledge of the history of the breed. Because in the only two tests that were acceptable for breeding suitability,( Sch and HGH), both requires the dog to do bitework from bad guy.


I think most of us know this. The bitework wasn't on the sheep. I was specific about saying they don't bite in the process of herding/moving the sheep. They do not bite the sheep. And when the herd children they don't bite them either.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> Most of my GSDs have tried to herd me by bumping me from behind. I put a stop to it, because anything an animal herd is by definition, beneath it in the pecking order!


Most of us worry way too much about the pecking order. LOL.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

The HGH does have a grip (of a sheep).



> Grip - (Maximum 6 Points)
> In every flock there are sheep that have little or no respect for the HGH, sheep that know exactly what they want and sheep that need to know precisely who is in charge. In order to obtain the respect of these sheep, the HGH now and then must demonstrate a skilful grip. For the grip to have the desired effect it must be a quick, full mouth grip exerting adequate pressure for only a short time. Gripping too often and unnecessarily are faults.
> The HGH must move along with the sheep while gripping; he is not allowed to tear at the sheep; damage to the sheep must not happen.
> Permitted grips are on the neck, on the ribs and on the back of the hind leg. When the shepherd gives the command to grip, the HGH must grip immediately; he is not allowed to hesitate. One or two commands should be enough; the same holds true when the HGH is told to release the sheep if the grip lasts too long. This accurately tests whether or not the HGH can command the necessary respect from the sheep and command the attention of
> ...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Yep, Kojak and Quinnie are doing a lot of gripping right now. LOL. But a GSD that bites will tear/damage the sheep and that is no good, even for an ornery little buggar.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> There are a lot of activities that any dog can do regardless of breed or size. If an owner enjoys a particular sport or venue and the dog has the ability to do it then why not? I know people that have trained GSD's to retrieve and point. As a breed they may not be the most natural pointers or retrievers but they can certainly be trained to do it. A dog with nice drives may even excel at it. I don't think we should pigeon hole a dog because of breed. If a dog and owner enjoy doing an activity, then that is awesome. IMO.
> 
> Regarding herding dogs, they do bite the animals they herd. They are selected and trained to not bite too severely and are corrected for too much aggression. Any dog with prey drive will chase animals and many given the chance will kill them. I am in the process of getting chickens and possibly ducks. Both of my GSD's will chase and kill chickens, I'm pretty sure of that. Although, they have never chased a chicken in their lives, I know my dogs. I certainly hope we don't breed out the desire to hunt, chase and capture game. While I do not hunt animals, I hunt people. I still want a dog that is willing to chase a squirell, possum or raccoon that comes into the yard. A GSD that lacks the desire to chase an animal while loose is not much of a GSD, IMO. I do not encourage my dogs to critter or chase game, but the drive that makes them want to do that is very important to a GSD. Unfortunately, most GSD's will not bite a human for real, confidently or well. That has clearly been bred out of the majority of GSD's in the US. That is why it is becoming increasingly harder and harder to find good suitable GSD's for patrol work.


Here's an example of open-mindedness, in the Ohio police force, they have a police chihuahua.

Meet Midge the world?s FIRST police chihuahua | Daily Mail Online


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dunkirk said:


> Here's an example of open-mindedness, in the Ohio police force, they have a police chihuahua.
> 
> Meet Midge the world?s FIRST police chihuahua | Daily Mail Online


Ours had a golden Labrador nearly as overweight as his owner, and he tore an ACL I think, in training, needed surgery.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

selzer said:


> I think most of us know this. The bitework wasn't on the sheep. I was specific about saying they don't bite in the process of herding/moving the sheep. They do not bite the sheep. And when the herd children they don't bite them either.


Please explain the difference between "grip" and "bite." My understanding is that the dog may need to "grip" the sheep periodically to make the stubborn ones move. 

It seems to be semantics to me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Slamdunc said:


> Please explain the difference between "grip" and "bite." My understanding is that the dog may need to "grip" the sheep periodically to make the stubborn ones move.
> 
> It seems to be semantics to me.


Biting is when they cause damage. Gripping should not damage the sheep. GSDs play really rough with eachother and it is all slobber, no blood. A GSD has no trouble making blood come when he wants it to. 

I have done some herding. What was important was for the dog to work/look for direction from me, and I really did not want to pay for any sheep. There was no biting of the sheep. I've watched a lot of dogs work sheep with never gripping them at all. 

So what does a GSD do to a stubborn duck? It is not going to bite the duck. The duck would be history. I really don't know about duck herding, but I know it is done. 

Bitework -- the dog does a protection routine with a guy on the sleeve, necessary for herding because the dog is supposed to be a guardian of the sheep as well as a mover of the sheep.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Slamdunc said:


> Please explain the difference between "grip" and "bite." My understanding is that the dog may need to "grip" the sheep periodically to make the stubborn ones move.
> 
> It seems to be semantics to me.


You're correct.

It's one of the most common misconceptions / sources of confusion, rooted in terminology. There are correct and incorrect grips (or "bites") - contact between the dog's teeth and the stock. 

Every venue penalizes a dog that loses control of the livestock. Some call it "stock doesn't respect the dog", and/or "dog fails to control a situation of its own initiative", or similar descriptions. The dog is ALLOWED to correctly grip the livestock (contact with teeth, call it what you will) when necessary and appropriate. 

I own livestock (including poultry), I'm the last person who would advocate for beating up or abusing animals. But the stock MUST respect the dog. Otherwise, nothing works and you have chaos.

A good friend brought her GSD (IPO3) to visit me, last year. Zero herding training. Zero exposure to livestock. Did not grow up on a farm. One of my goats decided to be a punk. Refused to yield, ran straight at the dog. The dog CORRECTLY sidestepped and BRIEFLY made one correct grip on the back of the neck. No blood. No injury. Dog let go, goat then proceeded to move. A "grip" - not a "bite".


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

So, the dog pust teeth on the sheep and lets go, correct? The dog didn't cause any bleeding, therefore the correct terminology is the dog "gripped" the sheep. If the dog caused a tear rip or bleeding then the dog "bit" the sheep, that is what I am getting from this. 

I have had dogs with genetically, full grips put their teeth on me. If I did not bleed then I was only gripped and not bitten? Boomer has genetically full grips. As a Patrol dog when he apprehends a suspect, if he only "grips" them, does that not count? Can I avoid the 3 hours of paperwork that is commonly needed after a "bite?" What if the bad guy only receives swelling, say a unilateral hematoma, which would be hard to see on a goat or sheep, is that still only a grip? >

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if an adult animal puts their teeth on me, I consider that a bite. If I am doing a K-9 demo and want to be PC, I discuss the dog's grips. I never use the word bite, especially when discussing apprehending suspects at a demo. But most people understand what the dog is doing while it is "gripping" me in the bite suit. 

This dog terminology can be crazy. I do understand, and if I did herding I'd be discussing "grips" as well. Just like I discuss apprehensions and "grips" when describing what Police K-9's do. :grin2:

As I sit here and ponder the "grip" vs "bite" description for herding dogs, I suppose a dog with some bite inhibition only "grips" the flock. A genetically full grip will certainly do less damage then an inferior frontal grip which would lead to pinching and tearing. A good IPO dog with strong genetics and full, calm grips should be a good herding dog prospect.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

I think we're on the same page.  Some of it depends on who's doing the talking, but the word "bite" usually implies something bad.

The only reason I threw all of this out here is that there are some incorrect stereotypes and beliefs that get circulated over and over. A dog might not need to use force, and that's great. That is the ideal. But if a situation calls for it, and the dog doesn't stay in control, things fall apart and the dog probably can't accomplish the task at hand. 

There must be clearheadedness. It would be incorrect (and dangerous) for the dog to tear/thrash/munch-munch-munch/hang on out of insecurity. I think there are parallels for sure, but that's out of my realm of experience.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

see if this helps 

the natural , genetic , full mouth grip is ideal for the GSD because of herding.

the dog grips and pushes into the sheep to control it - put it back into line 
calm and with full authority -- active aggression 

biting - the dog engages with his teeth and pulls towards itself in attempting to possess -- prey drive 

we are seeing fewer GSD with active aggression


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

When talking the semantics of grip /bite, we are validating the OP....lol
You can't grip without biting. Period. The DEGREE of the grip( full, partial, frontal, hard, or not); determines whether it is sufficient or detrimental to the task at hand. 
And most everyone doesn't know that HGH herding has bitework. I wish I had a dollar for how many breeders that openly pooh pooh the bitework traits in the breed as being something they don't breed for or breed away from...AND often they bring up Herding as example of why they focus on gait and see bitework as only necessary for police dogs.


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## newlie (Feb 12, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> I get annoyed at close minded people too. Why can't they just think like me?


Hahahah! I enjoyed this!

No, seriously, there are truly open-minded people, but I think most of us, myself included, sometimes have trouble getting past our own perceptions and opinions. Most of us can be open-minded until someone disagrees with something we feel strongly about and then they are close-mind because they can't see that we are right!

Another thought I have is that I don't always think being "open" to everything is necessarily a good idea. What is that saying "Stand for nothing and you will fall for anything?"


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cliffson1 said:


> When talking the semantics of grip /bite, we are validating the OP....lol
> You can't grip without biting. Period. The DEGREE of the grip( full, partial, frontal, hard, or not); determines whether it is sufficient or detrimental to the task at hand.
> And most everyone doesn't know that HGH herding has bitework. I wish I had a dollar for how many breeders that openly pooh pooh the bitework traits in the breed as being something they don't breed for or breed away from...AND often they bring up Herding as example of why they focus on gait and see bitework as only necessary for police dogs.


there is a difference between a hold and a chomp through 

if I give you a hot dog and say hold this in your mouth for a moment it should be released without damage 

if I give you a hot dog and say bite off a piece for me will you , then the wholeness of that hot dog will have changed - damaged as it were 

sheep must not be damaged -- that is why that full calm grip is so necessary 

damage leads to infection leads to loss of stock -- not professional competence on part of the herder 

what counts is the motivation -- what is behind those teeth --- the BRAIN 

******

here is an anecdote 

you lock 4 people into a room . that room has 4 doors - locked . by all appearances those doors are the only way out . those with the closed mind will apply their mightiest efforts to open those doors . those with an open mind will look for another solution -- there is a way out -- you have to experiment , adopt or reject -- keep looking -- there is a way out - it might be a floor board leading to the level below , it might be ventilation shaft - window , bribing the "jailor" - kicking a whole in the wall boards -- there is a way out.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

newlie said:


> Hahahah! I enjoyed this!
> 
> No, seriously, there are truly open-minded people, but I think most of us, myself included, sometimes have trouble getting past our own perceptions and opinions. Most of us can be open-minded until someone disagrees with something we feel strongly about and then they are close-mind because they can't see that we are right!
> 
> Another thought I have is that I don't always think being "open" to everything is necessarily a good idea. What is that saying "Stand for nothing and you will fall for anything?"


Good posts, Nellie.
Hey, I know a little bit about this breed, butttt, when I was at the Worlds with breeders from Europe, America, and Canada, I mostly shut my mouth and listened; especially when they were talking about dogs, sport training, pedigrees of dogs and trainers that had more first hand knowledge than I on these subjects....because I never want to stop learning or be close minded to current and evolving training or dogs.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

carmspack said:


> see if this helps
> 
> the natural , genetic , full mouth grip is ideal for the GSD because of herding.
> 
> ...


Trust me, I understand the value of a full, calm grip and it is not only herding where it is important. I just think some of the descriptions are simply more PC than anything else. Few people value a genetically, full, hard, calm grip more than me. It is one of the things I evaluate when testing potential Police K-9's. Actually, I have a printed sheet that I use to evaluate dogs when testing. The categories are 1) Sociableness, 2) Gunfire, 3) hunt and retrieve drives, 4) Prey drive, 5) Civil aggression, 6) Grip, 7) fight drive, 8) suit work, 9) Environmental. The list is set in order of the tests that I do. I put a tremendous emphasis on "grips" when testing and evaluating dogs. The "grip" tells me a lot about the dog being tested. I also spend a lot of time in my Patrol School building nice calm, full, hard, "grips." 

I also evaluate grips when working, training or just watching sport dogs. From my experience, even a "full calm grip" can cause damage. It may not be the tearing or bleeding type of damage, but bruising and swelling that may not be immediately noticeable. 

I do agree that we see less active aggression than we used too, and that is unfortunate.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

yes -- French riing training - decoy couldn't slip the sleeve because the dogs compression bite was so hard his circulation had cut off and he couldn't open his hands to drop the sleeve.
Same dog on body suit - leg bites -- inner thigh -- decoy was sure to show the big rainbow coloured bruise left by the dog doing an inner leg bite .


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

carmspack said:


> see if this helps
> 
> the natural , genetic , full mouth grip is ideal for the GSD because of herding.
> 
> ...


Okay, I've always heard that what herding dogs do comes from their prey drive. It's just that they have been selectively bred to not carry through and actually kill the animal. So, the above has me scratching my head: why would active aggression be valued over prey drive in a herding animal?

I understand that the pushing the sheep back into line is part of what a herding dog does, but how is it that doing this is 'active aggression'?


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Someone will probably have to correct me on this, but I believe the prey drive so the dogs stay attracted to the sheep, and active aggression involves the genetically programmed need to actively seek out and control the sheep? In other words the dog is not a pushover and has the natural ability to overpower and or control an ornery animal larger than itself. Sort of like a good bouncer needs controlled aggression and initiative ( active ) to control an unruly drunk? 
Lol did any of that make sense??


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Okay, the light suddenly went on, and I have the answer!

A dog pushing into the sheep is trying to keep them together, which is what a herding dog needs to do (active aggression).

A dog pulling/tugging on the sheep is trying to separate them from the flock to kill and eat them (prey drive).

Interesting - I have a dog whose grand-sire (a very well-known ASL show dog) showed great aptitude for herding. It seemingly came out of nowhere - NONE of the dogs in his pedigree were titled. He got his HSCS at the age of 8. He also passed this aptitude on to some of his progeny.

My female loves to tug, and has even pulled me across the floor while I'm in my office chair. I've often wondered if she has the herding drive, and would like to do a HIC test with her to find out. If the above is true, she probably doesn't, though when she was younger, she would try to herd me by bumping me from behind. (I put a stop to that.)

I have done some schutzhund bitework with her (she's half German showlines, half American) but was told she didn't have enough drive to get an IPO 1.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Okay, the light suddenly went on, and I have the answer!
> 
> A dog pushing into the sheep is trying to keep them together, which is what a herding dog needs to do (active aggression).
> 
> ...


I'd love to know who your dog's parents are - I have an ASL/WGSL cross also! I love the combination.

I don't know herding, but I don't really think it's quite so cut and dried as that? It sounds like a mathematical equation (enter X value, get Y), and I am not sure dogs really work that way.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's the pedigree:

Star of Hope vom Bayou Land

She's a mix of two of the very best lines from German and American blood.

And yes, I think you are right. It's not as cut and dried as all that. But if the dog's preferred --what's the word I'm looking for? -- fighting style?-- when on the sleeve is to pull and tear, then she/he would probably do the same with the sheep.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Here's the pedigree:
> 
> Star of Hope vom Bayou Land
> 
> ...


Dallas is somewhere past ubiquitous. I'm pretty sure everyone and their dog is linebred on Dallas. That's not uncommon by a long shot. Your dog definitely looks like an ASL/WGSL cross - she closely resembles a lot of the 50/50 crosses I've seen. Love that red! Mine is 3/4 ASL and more closely resembles her ASL sire.

Something about that deterministic conclusion still doesn't make a ton of sense to me. I feel like there's a component of aggression that would be activated in bitework that might not be in herding. But I don't understand drives at all. Just when I think I'm starting to get it, I read or hear something that tells me I really don't.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the herding instinct test is fun -- but does not give the best picture for HGH style , which the GSD was created FROM and for .

GSD is for large herd containment with a breed of sheep that was strong and stubborn .


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's a Dallas daughter doing herding, and looking like she was born to do it:


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

Sunsilver said:


> Here's a Dallas daughter doing herding, and looking like she was born to do it:


Her gait looks like it could be pretty. It also looks kind of like she's doing a drive-by with those sheep while the human does the work. :laugh:


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

It could also be a GSD doing what they were bred to do: working the 'furrow' - the invisible line the sheep are not allowed to cross.

I have some other photos of her, too, that show her more seriously involved with the sheep. Unfortunately, her page on the PDB does not say she was titled in herding, though not everyone keeps their dog's info up to date.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> Here's the pedigree:
> 
> Star of Hope vom Bayou Land
> 
> ...


Dallas and Ursus, interesting combination. I had a friend who had an Ursus son. We bred him to lots of bitches, and never got anything out of him. I bred Heidi over and over to him. I might have gotten something out of her if I tried a different dog, but I really liked that boy and was determined to have a successful breeding out of him. Wasn't meant to be. It's funny because she had his sperm checked several times. Didn't matter, he never had any progeny. 

Your bitch looks very nice though. Yeah Dallas was some form of herding champion. By all accounts he was a nice dog. Died kind of young, at 9 I think. Too bad. Everyone seemed to like him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

My little guy has a great grip, (he uses it continually on Quinnie), but he is pulling her in toward himself, rather than pushing her around. Nice pup. Today I let him run with Lassie, then added Quinnie into that mix. Finally I put in Lassie, and switched in Joy. Lassie is 4, Joy is 8. Neither had run the yard with the puppy or with Quinnie before. Very fun. Got a good chance to sit back and watch their gaiting and to see how a quick word altered their course which kept them in my yard, away from the road, and away from the river. They listen to whistles too, I think I could have fun with any of them and sheep. That little one would not be intimidated by a large or ornery sheep. Quinnie, maybe. Lassie, no way. Lass and Quinn are both rather small. 23 inches. 50 some pound females. Different personalities though.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sunsilver said:


> Here's the pedigree:
> 
> Star of Hope vom Bayou Land
> 
> ...


When talking about grip,( whether for herding or for IPO) there is much to read about the grip that is difficult to explain unless you really train and work on grips. Like your photo, the grip of that dog reveals quite a lot regardless of how hard it is. Just seeing and reading that grip, I could see where she may not be a good candidate for IPO. I'm sure others with an experienced eye in grip work see what I see. This doesn't mean she isn't a wonderful dog especially for American herding, but HGH herding of two hundred sheep requires different strengths as they move that amount of sheep down roads, over obstacles, and more importantly stating and stopping these sheep after they have settled in new place and start to graze. It's more work than fun for sure.
Ps I don't know why the attached photo is not showing, because it shows the grip.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Cliffson, would be interested to know what you see. It's difficult to read a static picture, I know, but I trust your judgement. I deliberately picked a picture that shows her pulling back, with the decoy about to let the sleeve slip off. There are other pictures of her bitework at the bottom of her pedigree page.

I have no plans to do herding with her as she's already 10. I am just curious to know what a herding instinct test would show. She has a TON of energy for her age, and is driving me nuts trying to figure out what to do with her! 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/senior-dog/697401-what-do-my-senior-need-job.html

Selzer, yeah, Dallas died very suddenly in his sleep at age 9. Owners were heart-broken.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

*** speaking in generalities ***

that gait looks like it could be pretty ------- what ? I would say pretty tiring to the dog . Too much energy needed to draw up and push for propulsion forward --- not enough snap to the ligaments . No period of suspension, which is the
pause between the push off - energy sparing . 
Not the best for working on uneven ground - which is the natural habitat of the sheep needing to be contained and moved, or on inclines .

For herding the dog would need to resort to other movement --- all real working dogs do --- and adjust speed and WALK and turn abd let out full throttle .
The ASL's have focused only on side movement . Not a functional gait for work.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Sunsilver said:


> Cliffson, would be interested to know what you see. It's difficult to read a static picture, I know, but I trust your judgement. I deliberately picked a picture that shows her pulling back, with the decoy about to let the sleeve slip off. There are other pictures of her bitework at the bottom of her pedigree page.
> 
> previously Cliff said " Like your photo, the grip of that dog reveals quite a lot regardless of how hard it is."
> Total body language -- is revealed Pretty much confirmed by the pictures at the bottom of her pedigree page.
> ...


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Yeah, I know, Carmen, but for AKC or CKC herding, it might still be good enough. [shrug] Just guessing - I found their website, and they didn't title her, but bred her to a male that had numerous herding titles. 

The lady who worked with Dallas to get his titles (Firethorne Farms) spoke very highly of his ability.

Edit: re your above comments on Star. Yes, Anthony is a very good handler/decoy, and knew how to get her to 'light up'. I agree, a decoy that wanted to 'send her home' would show a different picture. During the time she was doing bitework, I DID see a great improvement in her confidence and drive, though. 

I am currently looking for an activity to keep that devious mind of hers occupied, and out of trouble. Had to pick her up from Animal Control the other day, when she figured out how to escape from the backyard through a gate that had been pushed slightly ajar by a windstorm... :rolleyes2:


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

waterytart said
"Dallas is somewhere past ubiquitous. I'm pretty sure everyone and their dog is linebred on Dallas. That's not uncommon by a long shot"


For that very reason since the dog has insinuated himself into ASL - then the breeders have a right to know what the cause was .
You know popular dogs are line and in bred on ---


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Carmen, did you ever hear of this dog? Galaxy von Ajaye He was the first (and I think only) N. American dog to get an HGH title.

(Makes me wish I'd had a chance to try herding with Star when she was younger, given her bloodlines!)

People DO tend to make assumptions abut what a dog can/can't do, based on its bloodlines and where it lives.

For instance, there is nothing I can see in Dallas's lines that even remotely suggests he could get a herding title. Of course, as has been pointed out, AKC herding is a far cry from HGH herding...


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

excellent for the dog --- but do look at the pedigree -- not ASL's

these are WGSL's by genetics -- produced by Winnloh - who has done an excellent job advancing an intentional plan - a programme using her female line which originated from WGSL's . 

AKC is a matter of where the dog was born - not the genetics .

There were some great American dogs


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Arrggg...obviously didn't get my point across very well. OF COURSE Galley was a GSL - son of the 2000 Sieger, Ursus. My point was just because Galaxy was living in the States, many people would think he couldn't do the HGH, because the Germans tend to favour German dogs, or simply because it's NEVER been done before (he was the first). 

Galley also saved his owner's life by repeately nudging her in the breast, until she went and got it checked out. Yup, breast cancer! (eight post down, user name Sunshine) post about this year's NA Sieger - Page 2

Yes, of course ASL's aren't all that great for herding, for the reasons you mentioned. Dallas must have surprised a LOT of people.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Last year an American line dog went HGH.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

SERIOUSLY? Name, please? Love to see what its bloodlines were!

I happen to be one of those people who likes to blow people's assumptions out of the water. "You can't do that because xyz' is likely to get me thinking "OH YEAH?? WHY NOT?"

I was told Star would never get her BH because she was half American show lines. They were wrong.
I was told I'd never be able to control the horse I purchased for a dollar without a curb bit or at least a twisted snaffle. Soon I had her flexing her neck to the bit on a regular jointed snaffle.

I was told the quarter horse/thoroughbred mare I was working with should have 'gone for dog food'. By the end of the season, she came in 10th out of 54 entries in a starter level combined training event.

Sure, I KNOW the best dog for Schutzhund is a working line, and if I want to compete in CKC/AKC conformation shows, I'd better have an ASL dog. Having the genetics there really helps. But it's a lot of fun to try anyway, even when you don't have, or can't afford the animal with the best genetics.

This thread is about being closed-minded. And that applies to assuming what a dog can or can't do, as well as to training methods! Okay, this may seem like a rather silly example, but just LOOK at how much fun that dog is having!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Sunsilver, you can check out the results here ~

Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

very good description of what HGH entails Sheep Herding German Shepherd Dogs Training 
I had correspondence with a young lady who had contracts for Land management for public places and park land in Germany.
They would bring the sheep , bring the dogs . There were video clips of the dogs being half on the curb and half on the road , busy cars whizzing by , critical for sheep to be contained .and kept calm.

she had an altdeutscher hutehund -- too difficult to find dogs able to do the work in the birth place of the breed .

even on the whiteclover farm web site it looks like the young man has a strobel and a gelbbacke . 

quote sunsilver "Galley was a GSL - son of the 2000 Sieger, Ursus. My point was just because Galaxy was living in the States, many people would think he couldn't do the HGH"

why? are there not many programs in the US successful with breeding for law enforcement or other real work applications.
Genetics count . Not where you live . 
HGH is different though because of the scarcity of training and trialing availability.

Like the early days of French Ring - you could train your butt off but there were no opportunities to trial.

There was no discrimination in the Ring or Mondio clubs . There is no discrimination for dogs being evaluated for law enforcement (all disciplines) -- individual merit , aptitude , pass the evaluation , pass the certification, keep passing the annual re-certification. 
Dogs are tested that are sitting in shelters - who knows what they are -- can they work? That is all that matters.

For the end user that is what matters - dog has health, orthopedics and appropriate apptitude . Done.

But that is hit and miss . Luck.

The breeder needs to increase the chances for success , have a program that is dependable and predictable.

A BREED is supposed to be a predictable resource for specific attributes.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Carmen, that's what I meant - lack of training opportunities, plus (possibly) discrimination by the judges. Hoping that doesn't happen in herding the way it does at the big conformation shows. But despite that, he came through. Ursus was know for producing dogs that could work, and Galley was definitely one of them. And that's getting harder to find where the GSL dogs are concerned, especially ones that can herd.

Here's the ASL dog that got her HGH at White Clover Farms last year: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=754830-dajos-crestview-ladyhawke

Well, well, she's line-bred on Dallas! 

Her mother is a Dallas daughter, and also has an (AKC) herding title.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Just need to clear something up....

Galaxy got his HGH title in GERMANY, the first North American dog to do so. That's what made the title such an achievement. At the time, I think that was the only way for an American dog to get the HGH. He also had a Sch3. Because of the amount of time needed to titled a dog in herding, most herders don't take their dogs past Sch1.

The HGH title is now available in the States, at Ulf Kintzel's White Clover Sheep Farms, whid is where Kestrel got her title. Truly pasture raised lambs. White Clover Sheep Farm


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## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

Well this thread got more replies than I thought it would have lol.

Even though this thread is right now about herding dogs, I do wanna point out something mentioned earlier which was about off breeds doing stuff that their breed traditionally isn't involved in.

Some people say that Labs are terrible guard dogs, others say that they are extremely protective. And with that being said I felt the need to share this.






It's not the only video out there of a Lab doing protection and IPO or something among the lines. There's several videos out there of Labs doing bite work including a special on Dogumentary TV of a Doberman and a Lab in a French Ring. I was gonna post it on here but it also includes footage of a breed we're not allowed to talk about. Still look for it it's a very interesting video.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> Well this thread got more replies than I thought it would have lol.
> 
> Even though this thread is right now about herding dogs, I do wanna point out something mentioned earlier which was about off breeds doing stuff that their breed traditionally isn't involved in.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we had a yellow lab, certified police dog here in town. I heard he did have to trial and pass. 

There is a lot of bad breeding in labs, and labs are going up on the bite statistics, because of their popularity and bad breeding. This is much worse than GSDs biting, because GSDs have been bred to have a certain amount of aggression/guarding. Labs are really not that type of dog. They are hunters/retrievers, and are not really the right dog for guard work. This suggests to get these dogs to bite, the dogs either have to be unstable, or you have to work very hard to get them over their natural inhibition to bite humans. I would suggest gettting a dog that is more suitable than making a dog that is not suitable, suitable. 

Not really impressed by the dog in the video. It did come to the aid of its handler. They say that the blind people that are mugged all have seeing eye dogs that are bird dogs. The muggers don't want to go after the blind people with GSDs. The bad guys probably would be much quicker to go after someone with a lab than with a GSD. So the lab is more likely to actually have to engage. How is that fair? 

I don't think it is any more right to expect a GSD in a Lab-skin than it is to desire or expect a GR in a GSD-skin. Play to the dog's strenghts and don't expect a dog to be what it is not.


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## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

selzer said:


> Yeah, we had a yellow lab, certified police dog here in town. I heard he did have to trial and pass.
> 
> There is a lot of bad breeding in labs, and labs are going up on the bite statistics, because of their popularity and bad breeding. This is much worse than GSDs biting, because GSDs have been bred to have a certain amount of aggression/guarding. Labs are really not that type of dog. They are hunters/retrievers, and are not really the right dog for guard work. This suggests to get these dogs to bite, the dogs either have to be unstable, or you have to work very hard to get them over their natural inhibition to bite humans. I would suggest gettting a dog that is more suitable than making a dog that is not suitable, suitable.
> 
> ...


Well I know Labs are desired to be friendly, but I have seen a lot of Labs in guarding situations and have hears stories of them seriously protecting people. Of course there has been some recent horror stories about Labs, last year a Lab made the news for killing a toy breed at PetCo. I assume this is bad breeding and socialization.

I'm no Lab expert, but I do know that they are known for being very loyal to their owners. I don't know if a well bred Lab would be capable of being very protective, or if it's all bad breeding.

That video was a bad example. Here's a better one.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Narrow mindedness would often be helped if people didn't see things so black and white, there are so many factors to different situations. It's also a human habit to stick to your original opinion, changing opinions can be difficult.



Pytheis said:


> The one misconception that really bothers me is one that you have already stated. I hear people saying constantly, "certain breeds aren't aggressive. It's all about how the owner raises them!"
> 
> While this is true to a degree, people seem unwilling to accept that fact that some breeds are more prone to aggression, no matter how you raise them. I used certain breeds as the example because I hear it about them the most. I always try to explain to people that an aggressive dog might truly be aggressive. I try to explain how the parents' temperaments affect the dog. I try to explain that their dog being a doberman pinscher makes it more likely (NOT guaranteed) to be aggressive than a lab or golden retriever. People continue to restate that it is all how you raise the dog.
> 
> ...


To add on to that, dog moms and non dog people don't understand the concept that aggression is often a natural instinct and not always undesirable. Viciousness? Sure, viciousness cannot exactly be controlled and is not desirable. For those who are seeking working dogs/breeds aggression can be essential to the duty. There's nothing wrong with DA, as long as you manage your dog and keep them at a distance of other dogs. There's nothing wrong with prey aggression, the same rule applies. German Shepherd are often suspicious of strangers and can show aggression in the form of barking or showing teeth, this does not instantly make the dog evil and needs to be euthanized.

I guess that "it's not the dog it's the owner" can be valid, but you can't raise a dog out of their aggressive genetics, you can only learn to handle them properly. Again, to me aggression and viciousness are different and there are SO many levels of aggression, they shouldn't all be seen as undesirable.

This is more easily discussed on this forum though because this is a forum for a breed that typically displays some aggression. I don't imagine forums for goldens or labradors would be as accepting of aggression.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> Well I know Labs are desired to be friendly, but I have seen a lot of Labs in guarding situations and have hears stories of them seriously protecting people. Of course there has been some recent horror stories about Labs, last year a Lab made the news for killing a toy breed at PetCo. I assume this is bad breeding and socialization.
> 
> I'm no Lab expert, but I do know that they are known for being very loyal to their owners. I don't know if a well bred Lab would be capable of being very protective, or if it's all bad breeding.
> 
> ...


I think all breeds have potential for protection work, but some breeds just excel in the sport more than others. I love watching videos of small/toy breeds doing sleeve work, it's hilarious and impressive!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The Chesapeake (what?), is one of the hardest breeds you will find, an excellent guarding dog( for home) and has no compunction about biting. What's that last name?
If the less than 1% of a certain type of dog proves that the specific type can do something, what does the inability of the 99% prove? @Sunsilver....over the years I have probably given tens of thousands of grips/bites to hundreds and hundreds of dogs. When I see a grip like that and the body language given with ears, eyes, and body,;, 99 % of time a certain type of dog is present.


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## ubercake (Apr 16, 2017)

Everyone talks about gentle "Goldens", but the only dog I've ever been bit by was a loose Golden Retriever on my elementary school playground many years ago...


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

cliffson1 said:


> If the less than 1% of a certain type of dog proves that the specific type can do something, what does the inability of the 99% prove?


This is such a true statement.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

I am in a line of where where I go into several different homes everyday to perform mechanical repairs....
In my area, I do not worry about the german shepherds or pitbulls nearly so much as the hunting breeds.... Black labs and Chesapeake bay retrievers are the ones I really worry about biting. We have a black lab, and while she has never bitten, she will rush up snapping and snarly and push the front of her teeth into someone in a heartbeat. Yes she is insecure. American bred hunting type lab. Small frame, 60lbs. She is a ball hunting machine, and quarters the ground naturally. But the larger blockier labs seem to have a completely different temperament than these smaller ones. 
The one time I was actually afraid for my life involved a 160lb boerboel and a 120lb woman who couldnt control him. So for me, the hunting breeds, even though not bred to guard, I worry about the most as they are the most popular here.....


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Oh, the hunting dogs being protective goes way back....we used to have bullmastiffs.... The breed is notoriously dog aggressive. In " bullmastiff lore " this comes from the fact that the breed was created to hunt illegal poachers, and the poachers hunting dogs would often protect their masters from the old timey wardens trying to arrest them. Hence, the bullmastiff had to be capable of fighting off those dogs. So the hunting dogs doubling as guardians is nothing new or out of the ordinary. Growing up I had friends whose hunting dogs would turn around and tag you in a second if you raised a hand at them....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer 
"Yeah, we had a yellow lab, certified police dog"

there are many certified police dogs -- certified for what ? Usually narcotic / explosives - single purpose 

Lobofloppyear - the training on the french ring lab was outstanding . The attack work ? All the dog did was take hold
of bite suit material. There was no pressure , the decoy didn't frustrate the dog into feeling inadequate which shuts the dog down, there were no esquives , no mind games . 
No passion from the dog - beautiful delivery of a learned exercise.
The decoy ? In French Ring there are committees which observe the decoy's work . It is the duty of the decoy
to try to blow the dog's confidence - to fight , defeat the dog . No helping the dog , no positioning for the catch (just the opposite) no feeding the sleeve. If the decoy fails to attempt to do this his career as a decoy is in jeopardy - or lost.
Watch some French trials with the Malinois .
Unless something is real the value is not there .

Dracovich
" German Shepherd are often suspicious of strangers and can show aggression in the form of barking or showing teeth, this does not instantly make the dog evil and needs to be euthanized."

Nor does it mean that the dog was being protective .
Could be a fearful dog - which in a breed with aggression potential , is NOT a good thing . 
People will buy young puppies showing defensive aggression thinking they will have protection potential .
First of all a pup should be pretty much naive -- friendly/neutral . In breeds with aggression breeding and selecting for stability and a clear mind are all the more important . The GSD , a very popular breed, is in the households of "pet" owners -- stable temperament is very very important .

Chesapeake Bay Retrievers - Cliff I have had quite a bit of exposure and there is some major temperament problems -- sharpness off loaded on handler . 
apparently raisedbyshepherds is familiar with Chessie aggressiveness "Chesapeake bay retrievers are the ones I really worry about biting."

HGH trials in Germany --- many of the dogs entering are trialing only dogs . They train for the trial . The sheep train for the trial. At one time only practical day to day working tending dogs would enter and that was to show case the talents of the dog and the expertise of the handler .


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

carmspack said:


> HGH trials in Germany --- many of the dogs entering are trialing only dogs . They train for the trial . The sheep train for the trial. At one time only practical day to day working tending dogs would enter and that was to show case the talents of the dog and the expertise of the handler .


Serious question:

What kind of stock work (done today, in 2017) would you consider 'real' - demonstrative of a dog's work ethic and abilities?


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Chessies..... Had many friends who owned this breed. I cant remember any that didnt act like full blown guard dogs on their own turf. Can remember one in particular I really liked that dog. 120 lbs of muscle. You could throw a quarter in the field by their house, the dog would fine it. The same dog could be told " smokey get him! "..... And you'd better not run when he came charging up. If you ran, that dog would catch you and he wasnt playing. Saw the dog run down and grab ahold of a guys arm. Thick camo winter clothing, and the dog wasnt worked up, no damage but some bruising, but that was a big dog either way


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> Well this thread got more replies than I thought it would have lol.
> 
> Even though this thread is right now about herding dogs, I do wanna point out something mentioned earlier which was about off breeds doing stuff that their breed traditionally isn't involved in.
> 
> ...


I'd like to see the same dog doing that scenario in a muzzle with no bite suit and no equipment. A dog biting a suit shows some nice training, but doesn't say to me that the dog is going to engage for real. I saw a video recently of a dog doing some bite work on a suit in a closet. The title of the post was something like "just another sport dog", I guess suggesting the dog was moe than just a sport dog? Another dog was back tied and biting a sleeve in that thread. I suppose some folks think because their dog bites a sleeve or a suit it is suitable for sport, a potent PPD or even real work. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can get a poodle to bite a suit or a sleeve. Don't get me wrong the dog in the closet biting the suit seems like it could be a nice sport dog. 

Let's not confuse suit work with real work or simply because a dog bites a suit it is working in anything more than prey. There are plenty of dogs that will bite a suit or a sleeve with gusto that will not bite a person for real. Yes, we use suits to teach dogs to engage, but the training goes much beyond that. A suit or a sleeve is just equipment and fun to a lot of dogs. It takes some experience to know the difference.

It is when you go beyond the equipment training to focusing on serious control and aggression that you may have an idea what a dog will do.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Ok, someone somehow tell me whhat is this mysterious breed we arent supposed to talk about?? Killin me here!


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Slamdunc said:


> I'd like to see the same dog doing that scenario in a muzzle with no bite suit and no equipment. A dog biting a suit shows some nice training, but doesn't say to me that the dog is going to engage for real. I saw a video recently of a dog doing some bite work on a suit in a closet. The title of the post was something like "just another sport dog", I guess suggesting the dog was moe than just a sport dog? Another dog was back tied and biting a sleeve in that thread. I suppose some folks think because their dog bites a sleeve or a suit it is suitable for sport, a potent PPD or even real work. Nothing could be further from the truth.  I can get a poodle to bite a suit or a sleeve. Don't get me wrong the dog in the closet biting the suit seems like it could be a nice sport dog.
> 
> Let's not confuse suit work with real work or simply because a dog bites a suit it is working in anything more than prey. There are plenty of dogs that will bite a suit or a sleeve with gusto that will not bite a person for real. Yes, we use suits to teach dogs to engage, but the training goes much beyond that. A suit or a sleeve is just equipment and fun to a lot of dogs. It takes some experience to know the difference.
> 
> It is when you go beyond the equipment training to focusing on serious control and aggression that you may have an idea what a dog will do.


Not that I really have any experience in these types of things, but as a layman, that dog doesn't really look into it. I mean, yeah, he's biting the suit, but it doesn't look like he wants to rip that suit to shreds. Not enough passion, if you know what I mean.

From the little I've seen of GSDs and Malinois, they truly look like they're latching on with all their might and actively attempting to haul the suit guy to the ground.

It seems like the difference between a guy who doesn't really know how to throw a punch trying to punch someone vs a guy who knows how to punch and full-on decks someone.


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

My Sister in laws step daughter just got bit in the face by a lab a month ago. 28 stitches i think. I wasnt there but they said it was going for a frisbee, I have not heard all of the details but its very unfortunate. 

In that video the handler would have taken so much real life damage by the point the dog intervened. I watched it no volume so i could be missing something. lol 

I feel like a lot of Dogs are versatile enough to give anything a shot and with a good handler you can get results that go against the grain. Maybe not i deal, but possible. It seems it would be a liability though having a lab do bitework or protection. Its always going to have a stigma and if it hesitates or fails it will probably be magnified due to the friendly breed status.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

WIBackpacker said:


> Serious question:
> 
> What kind of stock work (done today, in 2017) would you consider 'real' - demonstrative of a dog's work ethic and abilities?


actually more than you would think -- Germany in particular is serious about environment and greening , including roof tops, and anti herbicides and anti GMO.

this and a new appreciation for natural fibre --- wool as a bedding and pillow filler - heavenly

this and changes in cultural dietary needs -- lamb being primary in hallal diets 

this one looks like an altdeutsche hutehund of the gelbbacke variety -- looks to be somewhere in the UK . Notice the dog is focused on the handler and not "prey-interested" in the sheep
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYWQLZyCuIAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYWQLZyCuIA 

another one - again altdeutche hutehund , strobel and schafpudel ? 




another - kuhund --- look at the to-die-for-genetic obedience and affinity to the handler


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Ok, someone somehow tell me whhat is this mysterious breed we arent supposed to talk about?? Killin me here!


what mysterious breed - must be missing something


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

please notice that not one of the real working herding dog is in the ASL's revered "flying trot" side gait -- 
note the variety of movements --- 
note the moderate , balanced conformation - not a one extreme --- note the top lines - strong backs


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

carmspack said:


> please notice that not one of the real working herding dog is in the ASL's revered "flying trot" side gait --
> note the variety of movements ---
> note the moderate , balanced conformation - not a one extreme --- note the top lines - strong backs


I 'note"-iced haha


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

So my big question here is if certain supposedly desirable traits are anti productive to the dogs ability to work at the job it was originally created for, and the breed standard is there to give guidelines to help the breed retain its original purpose, then how the heck are all these things that are anti productive being considered acceptable?? I mean, I understand if the breeds purpose changes over time and the standard changes to reflect that, but all these " specialty gsd " being bred to be great at specific purposes rather than being the all around utility dog they are supposed to be, should they be considered separate breeds or should the standard be changed or what?
I have a special interest in this side of things per my old bullmastiffs....the current standard breeds dogs that are not as well suited for the original purpose of poacher hunting, but better for being a guardian of house and land. Not chasing down armed men in the woods......
With the gsd even a small amount of looking around one sees dogs that may as well be separate breeds. I personally was looking for an all around utility dog when last went looking for a pup. Not an easy search. Everyone screams breed standard like its holy, but how is breeding dogs that have so much prey drive without the head to contain that drive, any better than breeding gsds that are larger than standard, but more suited to guarding a small piece of property. The former seems to be accepted practice, but the latter is a sin?
If youre gonna start separating a breed into subsets that are better at certain things than the other subsets, where does it stop? Or when do these dogs get called separate breeds? 
Curious as to what the very knowledgeable on here would like to see happen with these things.
This thread is on open mindedness, and with this breed I see alot people shouting about the standard, yet breeding dogs that may as well be different breeds. 
A gsd is not a gsd is not a gsd. Lol
And if the gsd is not primarily being used as a living fence anymore, should we even be clinging to a standard to retain dogs to perform a job no longer being done?
For me personally i think that with all these different types of gsd at this point its a free for all and thats fine if everyone can find a type of gsd that fits their purpose. To each his own. Open minded. .....as long as someone is retaining a core of dogs that that still perform the original purpose to draw from. The real deal as it were.
I am most interested in what experienced breeders think should happen......


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

I have always been told that the gsd is supposed to be good at everything but great at nothing. If this helps to understand where I'm coming from with this


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

The whole standard still means something to some of us, but personal likes, ribbons, trophies, and misconceptions occupy a higher value to many breeders today than the breed standard.
Close minded views are a big part of maintaining selective specialties in the breed.....it is what it is.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

raisedbyshepherds makes some good points - many which I have discussed , 3 separate breed designation 

those looking for a specific trait will know where to find it -- the law enforcement / working group doesn't look to ASL's - because the rate of finding one for those purposes is slim to none -- go to where you will be most successful and even then you have to work at it 

looking for a dog to compete in SV Zuchtshau ? you know where to find it -- certainly not working or the ASL

looking for a big ASL winner -- look to this grouping 
the breeders tend to stay within their own group 

comment on this
", any better than breeding gsds that are larger than standard, but more suited to guarding a small piece of property"

these tend to hail from the pet-market breeders -- and the protection element is reduced --


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

See so many people owning gsds say its not what they expected. Their fault for not doing proper research, but most people just dont realize there are several types....and the dogs suffer for it. Sad to see.... Its almost like a standard doesnt really exist..


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> See so many people owning gsds say its not what they expected. Their fault for not doing proper research, but most people just dont realize there are several types....and the dogs suffer for it. Sad to see.... Its almost like a standard doesnt really exist..


Oh, a standard exists. Very few attempt to follow it. Even the most basic things like hips and elbows, not to mention conformation, working ability or temperament.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

spoke with Linda Shaw yesterday and was told that 
"My book is now available as an eBook. 
THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD EBOOK, $25 USD |


I spoke with her to get a picture of her feisty Schipperke to get a picture for Bailiff - got one but don't know how to post it


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so then , who is open minded for a split and rename?

apparently not the ASL's because that was already a desparate battle to be under the umbrella of the GSD name .

personally I don't care -- call working dogs something else - 

maybe we need to be very open minded and look to predecessors of the GSD -- and start opening up minds and the bottle necks that will bring this whole experiment to an end .

already playing around with ideas "fit well into a broader study of genomic switches" -- long term project - another one


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Im no expert.... Just someone who has lived with gsds most of my life, but it almost feels like there actually needs to be a split...... Why not? Seems like it would be progress at this point


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Im no expert.... Just someone who has lived with gsds most of my life, but it almost feels like there actually needs to be a split...... Why not? Seems like it would be progress at this point


Hey, sometimes you do what you need to do to protect the dogs you support. The AKC, CKC, UKC, FCI, even the SV don't give us good dogs. Good breeders give us good dogs...it really doesn't matter what the dogs are called and it really doesn't matter what registry recognizes them. 

Leaving the breed worked well for the White Shepherd/White Swiss Shepherds but what a shame it would be to see the working GSD leave the breed. If anyone should leave the breed it's not the working GSD.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Im no expert.... Just someone who has lived with gsds most of my life, but it almost feels like there actually needs to be a split...... Why not? Seems like it would be progress at this point


The split has already happened, actually it happened quite some years ago. 

If you know what you like and what you want in a GSD you can certainly find one to fit your needs. It does take some very careful research and a buyer beware attitude. Those new to the breed need to be especially careful.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

cliffson1 said:


> The whole standard still means something to some of us, but personal likes, ribbons, trophies, and misconceptions occupy a higher value to many breeders today than the breed standard.
> Close minded views are a big part of maintaining selective specialties in the breed.....it is what it is.


Slam kinda touched on the opposite side of that coin, the take my word for it cause I know folks. I think there's personal likes no matter what with in a standard, but ribbons and trophies are earned in whatever venue from the judgement of others and in the view of general public.


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## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

The GSD isn't the only breed out there with a show line and working line split. I don't know if this is what we're talking about by split, but I do believe that the breed standard needs to be changed to include White GSDs.

Other breeds are split in Working Line vs. Show Line or just sometimes referred to as American vs. European.

Dobermans and Boxers for example. Their working or European lines are larger in size and have more muscular builds as well as stronger temperaments, drives, and a higher possibility of having aggression in them.


















With Labs, there's the show line Labs, which are smaller and look fat. The working line Labradors, often referred to as Field Labs are taller, larger in size and have a leaner body. Temperament wisely field Labs have far more drive and energy than their show line counterparts.
Show Lab








Field Lab









Now the GSD is the one that shows the most dramatic differences between working and show line. The differences are far too great that they can't be explained in a picture and simple text. The differences are dramatic to the point were owners of working line GSDs are often asked if what their dog is mixed with. It's the reasons memes like this exist.










Unfortunately the general public isn't aware of the split between show and working lines in a dog's breed. They think a Boxer is just that, a Boxer. Same with a GSD, I've even asked owners if they know about the different types of GSDs and they have no clue. The general public needs to be better informed of the split among dog breeds.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> selzer
> "Yeah, we had a yellow lab, certified police dog"
> 
> there are many certified police dogs -- certified for what ? Usually narcotic / explosives - single purpose



Well, you know a lot, but I don't know if you know what it is to live in a small town in Ohio. In Ohio, for a dog to be a police dog, it has to go to the police dog trials and be certified as a patrol dog. And yes, the handlers usually get their dogs as puppies or green dogs and train them themselves. Chief Fable had a yellow lab that he certified. This was not a dog that brought out just to do SAR, or to sniff dogs at the high school. We did eventually get a malinois, so for a short while there were two dogs in our town. Incendently, Cero, the GSD was shot and killed by Levi Reidenour who was in the first grade with my sister, and my brother's step kids friend. The police open fired and killed him. He had killed Mr. Olsen (owner of Hardees) and then the dog when they set the dog on him. And then they killed him. The next dog we had, went with the handler to another police department. Then there was Fable's yellow lab, and then the mal. All had to be certified patrol dogs to be used by police for police work here.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> The GSD isn't the only breed out there with a show line and working line split. I don't know if this is what we're talking about by split, but I do believe that the breed standard needs to be changed to include White GSDs.
> 
> Other breeds are split in Working Line vs. Show Line or just sometimes referred to as American vs. European.
> 
> ...


Interesting on the labs. The showline English Setters are much taller. The field dogs are smaller. Now they call the field lines Llewlyn Setters. Not sure if it is a separate breed or not.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

The split in labs is definately not well known. In my area the more mellow, softer blockier labs are called english labs. My wife has a hunting type lab. She did not know the difference when she got the dog....she had a neighbor that had an english lab. That was what she thought she was getting....thought all labs were like that. So she was given her present dog, who was in need of a home. She is a fantastic dog. Fiercely loyal. Will at least attempt to protect when she thinks theres a problem. But.... She is a total spaz. My wife loves the heck out of her, but no, if she had known there was a difference she would not have gotten that type of lab. 
A lab is not a lab is not a lab. 
I'm starting to think that working vs show need to be re classed. Waaaaay more confusion than there should be. 
But....once again educate yourselves people!!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

The split in Labs is as extreme as GSD. I have a field dog. She is 54 lbs of solid muscle, high energy, needs to work, indifferent to people and other dogs if working. 

My friend has a young showline male lab. They don't even look like the same breed. The showline/English type are correct height, but very heavy bone, very short tail(otter), thick heads. 

A hunting lab is not supposed to be tall. These 120 lbs tall "field" labs are just cruddy BYB dogs. My field lab is correct height.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Any working breed that has become popular in the AKC has a distinct difference between the working line dogs and the "show line" dogs. As soon as a dog becomes a "champion" for running laps around a ring and not being judged on the working traits the breed was supposed to have or designed to do, it's no longer the dog or breed it once was.

This is where the split starts.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

slamdunc this is true !

good book that crystalizes that is Bred for Perfection 

even in the von Stephanitz book he says "show" is the ruination of a breed ---- yet he worked long and hard to bring uniformity to create this national breed .

Before there was even "the" breed and they were still assembling the best of the working shepherd's dogs there was infighting and discontent about the direction that should take prioritiy --- this was the Phylax society . 
One wanted to maintain the utility . Why else select from superior working dogs . 
A large and ambitious segment anxious to create a dog to represent the new nation at international exhibitions , which were all the rage at the time , put its efforts and priorities into the "beauty" . So much so that much of the original
talents had all but gone . The Phylax society was short lived . 
When it began to break apart - von Stephanitz stepped in with authority and became the organizer and the decider , creating essentially the SV .
his predecessors Anton "So" Eiselen had a better record for breeding and a better concept of the landrace breeds 

von Stephanitz excelled at documentation .

and here we are now ---


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Ohio gets its first 'police pit bull'

http://www.wlwt.com/article/ohio-gets-its-first-police-pit-bull/9876605

A single purpose narcotics dog.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> slamdunc this is true !
> 
> good book that crystalizes that is Bred for Perfection
> 
> ...


So the more things change the more they stay the same?


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

To be clear, I am not against showing or SL dogs. I just want the working ability to be preserved in addition to proper structure and conformation. I actually love the looks of a black/red SL dog. I've owned ASL, WGSL, WGWL and WG/Czech WL and White GSD's. They were all great dogs.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Sunsilver said:


> Carmen, that's what I meant - lack of training opportunities, plus (possibly) discrimination by the judges. Hoping that doesn't happen in herding the way it does at the big conformation shows. But despite that, he came through. Ursus was know for producing dogs that could work, and Galley was definitely one of them. And that's getting harder to find where the GSL dogs are concerned, especially ones that can herd.
> 
> Here's the ASL dog that got her HGH at White Clover Farms last year: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=754830-dajos-crestview-ladyhawke
> 
> ...


Sunsilver- my Asl Max - woodhaven's rising heat has a lot of the same lines -Dallas-as crestview ladyhawke. He has great herding instinct. I adore this dog like no other. You should try the herding instinct test its tons of fun!!!!


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Slamdunc said:


> To be clear, I am not against showing or SL dogs. I just want the working ability to be preserved in addition to proper structure and conformation. I actually love the looks of a black/red SL dog. I've owned ASL, WGSL, WGWL and WG/Czech WL and White GSD's. They were all great dogs.


I liked the facebook pages of a number of show lines breeders-and love the looks of some of the dogs that I see-they are just gorgeous. I wish more show line and ASL breeders would post. I owned an ASL by accident -maybe she was just pet lines but she was a fun dog to train she wanted to work


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Jenny, maybe once my younger female gets her 1P0 1. Right now, we're focusing on that, as well as trying to keep my 10 year old Dallas/Ursus grand-daughter out of trouble! :rolleyes2:

She gets bored when I'm away at work, and gets into the kitchen cupboards. Childproof latches don't stop her. Two weeks ago, it was the casserole dishes. In February, it was another cupboard where she and her partner-in-crime demolished 2 boxes of crackers, and tore open a bag of flour... Most often, it's the cupboard that has the garbage in it. I never put anything in there that might interest her, unless she likes coffee and old banana peels!

Trying to find a job for her that will keep her out of mischief!


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

carmspack said:


> spoke with Linda Shaw yesterday and was told that
> "My book is now available as an eBook.
> THE ILLUSTRATED STANDARD EBOOK, $25 USD |
> 
> ...


Carmen if you want to PM me, I can help you sort out image sharing options. Let me know if you're on a computer or on a smartphone, and where your images are saved (online/on a website, or saved on your computer somewhere). Once you get the knack of it it's pretty easy - you'll be able to share as many pictures and video clips of your dogs as you'd like, there are tons of free online storage options out there at the moment.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

carmspack said:


> so then , who is open minded for a split and rename?
> 
> apparently not the ASL's because that was already a desparate battle to be under the umbrella of the GSD name .
> 
> ...


I think the GSD breed needs to be restarted from the ground up. Take quality GSDs that exist now, and introduce other working/herding breeds to diversify the bloodlines. Then, breed back toward the GSD basic standard. I also think the standard needs to be rewritten and focus on what was desirable in the early 1900s. Forget about the flying trot and pretty colors nonsense. Focus on working ability, good temperament, and good health.

I think the same needs to be done for a LOT of breeds. For example, the English Bulldog needs to be bred back to its original dimensions as the current shape and body have too many health issues related to breathing and poor gait. Plus, no breed should require human assistance to reproduce (as in, the dogs can't even mate by themselves). Same with the Pug (eye socket and breathing), Cavalier (eye socket), and so on and so on.

This is why I have a certain level of disdain for the AKC, UKC, and other dog show kennel clubs. They've ruined a lot of breeds for the sake of pretty dogs that can go in circles.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

carmspack said:


> Dracovich
> " German Shepherd are often suspicious of strangers and can show aggression in the form of barking or showing teeth, this does not instantly make the dog evil and needs to be euthanized."
> 
> Nor does it mean that the dog was being protective .
> ...


I completely agree. That goes along the lines of trained vs not trained, too. The misconception that having a guardian breed means they will protect you naturally is not valid. The thought that German Shepherds will attack to protect is based off of police and military dogs, which are all trained for the task. This kind of ignorance is solved with proper research, most people who buy into it simply aren't willing to put that effort in.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> I completely agree. That goes along the lines of trained vs not trained, too. The misconception that having a guardian breed means they will protect you naturally is not valid. The thought that German Shepherds will attack to protect is based off of police and military dogs, which are all trained for the task. This kind of ignorance is solved with proper research, most people who buy into it simply aren't willing to put that effort in.


Some dogs will protect naturally. A well bred gsd will.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Personally, I think all dogs are selfish opportunists. They do whats in their own self interest and through training we show them their self interest is in doing what we want. Go out and get in a fight with someone you can't beat. See who your untrained dog bites. Ask Slam about training dogs to not automatically bite the guy on the bottom even if its their handler. They switch sides easier then you'd like to think.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Dracovich said:


> I completely agree. That goes along the lines of trained vs not trained, too. The misconception that having a guardian breed means they will protect you naturally is not valid. The thought that German Shepherds will attack to protect is based off of police and military dogs, which are all trained for the task. This kind of ignorance is solved with proper research, most people who buy into it simply aren't willing to put that effort in.


no they aren't trained for it -- they are evaluated for the natural trait .

the natural desire to protect has to be there -- it has to be part of the total consideration.

if you fear a GSD that has APPROPRIATE aggression - please do not breed them -- please do not buy them . Aggression is an integral part of the breed characteristic. 

people buy dogs that demonstrate weak nerves , insecuirty, sharpness and too high suspicion , and brag about the dogs ability to protect . It is not . 

balance - clear minded , neutral to strangers , ability to discriminate -- active aggression - controllable prey stimulation .

bred in the bone --- not trained


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes, I agree with both posts above mine. The dog needs to have the natural instincts, drives, aggression, confidence and nerve strength naturally. You can not train that into a weak nerved dog. Just like you can not make chicken salad out of chicken poop. I test dogs and I tests their natural instincts, temperament and drives. I will also set up some testing to differentiate trained behavior from natural behavior. With a keen eye you can see the flaws covered up in training, you can also expose the ****** in the armor. 

If the dog has genetically weak nerves, or overwhelming insecurity you may be able to build some confidence and train the dog how to react in certain situations. But, the weak nerves will always be there. You can modify behavior with training but you will never change the dog's genetic temperament.


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## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

I looked up some bite statistics and fatality reports and despite the fact that the Lab has been involved in multiple bite incidents and has numerous fatalities, it somehow still maintains its title as America's Sweetheart.

Huskies too, despite being involved in far more bite incidents and fatalities than Labs is a breed that is adored by the General Public. A video of a Husky shows up on my FB feed. A kid is lying down on his bed, his Husky on top of him, his mother trying to get him out of bed and every time she moves his hand over to get him out of bed, the dog lunges at her hand. In the comments section, everyone is laughing and commenting how cute/loyal/protective the dog is. Meanwhile people who actually know a thing or two about dog training and comment on how dangerous the behavior is are quickly shunned and insulted.

Despite the GSD having a better reputation that other breeds frequently banned and blacklisted by insurance companies (i.e. Dobermans, Rotties, Fighting Breeds, Mastiffs), it still has a shaky reputation. People are scared of them, avoid them, and there are a lot of horror stories that people have involving GSDs. The police dog reputation also affects how GSDs are viewed and produces mixed reactions. Some view it as a good thing since it shows that the dog is smart, loyal and super trainable, others see the videos and footage of GSDs biting decoys and criminals and view the dogs as vicious and aggressive.

All this coupled with multiple bite incidents and fatalities caused by GSDs, gives it a rather bad reputation. As I stated in another thread (Not all dogs are perfect), we can only expose our dogs to so much and even the best trained dogs can have a curveball thrown at them in which they might react in an unpredictable manner. Unfortunately in most incidents, that isn't the case and sometimes irresponsible ownership and bad breeding causes these incidents to happen.

The absolutely nail to the coffin about the GSD rep is a YouTube video called "German Shepherd Attacks" by a channel named "They will Kill you". In the description of the video they say "German Shepherds are known to be aggressive dogs." The only other breed they've dedicated a video of dog attacks to is a fighting breed. Surprisingly though in the comments, most people were defending GSDs were in the other video they were condemning the breed.

It's unfortunate that the breed we love is a victim of this reputation, but it's a reality we live in. At times you might think reputation doesn't matters, but when you look at BSL, breed bans, insurance policies ect. you then see how a bad rep affects the GSD. And the best thing about this forum is that it serves to educate people about the breed which is great considering all the misinformation and falsified information out there that exists.

This thread sits in at 4800+ views which judging by the posts here, very few of the views are by members of the forum, which is a good thing. Threads like these help the public be educated on issues especially since my first post focuses on the misconceptions on dogs that multiple people believe in and most of the members here confirm to be as true.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I was thinking about this today. Family members have no qualms about saying ridiculous things to you about your dogs, like, "I worry that they will kill you." 

Statistically, I think you are far more likely to be killed by your own kid than by your GSD. Can you imagine telling your brother that he should have his cell phone on him all the time, in case one of his kids tries to kill him? I would never. And my brother's step kid has psychophrenia. 

Doesn't matter if a lot more people are killed by their kids, step kids, adopted kids, etc., than their dogs. People have no qualms telling you to carry a gun or a phone in case the dogs try to kill you. 

Ah well. Probably just a carry-over or throwback from the hysteria around wolves. Humans seem to like to be horrified by intelligent, four legged, carnivorous creatures, and especially if they are willing to eat kibble and like to lie on couches.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

carmspack said:


> no they aren't trained for it -- they are evaluated for the natural trait .
> 
> the natural desire to protect has to be there -- it has to be part of the total consideration.
> 
> ...


I was mostly referring to actual protection action as in attacking a true threat, being a reliable defense. But breeding/genetics determine if a dog can even be properly trained to the task, I agree with your comment.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> Some dogs will protect naturally. A well bred gsd will.


Reliably is another story, though, dogs don't always comprehend what is and is not a threat. Police K9s are not trusted to their own judgement, the commands are very important and the judgement of the handler. Many dogs will understand when their owner is in distress though and can react defensively, yes.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> Reliably is another story, though, dogs don't always comprehend what is and is not a threat. Police K9s are not trusted to their own judgement, the commands are very important and the judgement of the handler. Many dogs will understand when their owner is in distress though and can react defensively, yes.


I disagree. A well bred stable example of the breed can be reliable. No different than an anatolians Shepherd guarding a flock. A stable well bred gsd could be reliable. Civil with a clear head. 

Do you have any first hand experience with a good example of the breed? Or is your experience based on something you read?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

" Police K9s are not trusted to their own judgement, the commands are very important"

you keep saying things which show that you don't understand how it is working with a k9 partner .

dogs operate without commands -- make decisions - which is why they are evaluated and re-evaluated and need updates, cleanups (bad habits) and re-certification -- this is a judgment on the dog and his performance 

so then, what about any of the other working disciplines search dogs drug/narcotic - are they not working without micro managing ? You can't command a dog based on your judgement on something that you can't even discern.

too many movies where there is a constant stream of chatter -- 




HRD / SAR those dogs are commanded twice . Once to initiate action, once to end action. 

tending sheep -- there are dogs left to handle the job all on their own


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

carmspack said:


> " Police K9s are not trusted to their own judgement, the commands are very important"
> 
> you keep saying things which show that you don't understand how it is working with a k9 partner .
> 
> ...


So you're saying the commands are not important and training isn't necessary? Lol ok.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

cloudpump said:


> I disagree. A well bred stable example of the breed can be reliable. No different than an anatolians Shepherd guarding a flock. A stable well bred gsd could be reliable. Civil with a clear head.
> 
> Do you have any first hand experience with a good example of the breed? Or is your experience based on something you read?


I've owned GSDs my entire life because my grandfather was a k9 handler in the military with a passion for the breed. I'd love to see some reference though, I just haven't heard of any of our k9 officers not having been trained to the task only relying on their genetics. Nice assumption that all my GSDs are of poor bloodlines, though. LOL


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I'm not saying it's impossible for an untrained dog to properly protect it's handler, it occasionally happens, but theories and speculations are just that, and I would rather base my opinion on the vast majority of results.

All the K9 officers I have met have gone through extensive testing and training and even then they occasionally make mistakes.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

A properly bred dog of any guardian breed, if it has all the proper natural traits from breeding should protect with no training. I can say that from multiple experiences.......thats not saying they know how to fight a human.....I'm not talking just hackles up barking, I'm talking moving forward challenging the threat...driving it back and away from what they are protecting. We had a solid black working line with no protection training at all. There was an incident when I was a teenager where two guys in a van tried to force entry into our home in broad daylight. My mother met them at the door with a pistol. They got back in van and right then the dog, Ben, scaled his 8ft kennel and flew at these guys. When they were pulling out Ben was literally hanging out the drivers side window trying to get em. Fearless.... That is what I want in a dog. He wasnt a dangerous dog..... Totally non aggressive off property. Good genetics. Our bullmastiffs would also step forward to actively challenge a percieved threat. Human or animal didnt matter. 
We went on a short hike yesterday with my 5 month old gsd and 7 year old lab. The lab is not very friendly. She's very socialized, just doesnt like strangers in our space. Well up the trail comes a couple, with a yellow lab and a german shepherd. The shepherd didnt look like anything special. Neither on leash. Shepherd comes running up to our lab like a fool, so she snapped at him " back off! " 
That shepherd actually cowered down. No shepherd I've owned would have cowered. Wouldve either not reacted at all or there would have been a fight. 
Now that dog I wouldnt trust to protect me at all.........


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would not ever, never ever , offer a young k9 potential if that dog did not have natural guarding and aggression .

to do less would be to hand over a faulty piece of equipment and that can cost the life of the handler .

you do not train for it .

the first time that need for aggression is brought in to action may not be pretty -- but it better be there .

the training refines and puts controls into the performance -- it does not create the drive

a well bred GSD should be able to protect . Without commands . 

If not , the dog should not be bred . 

Those are some of the basic reasonable expectations of this breed... It shouldn't be guess work .


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> I've owned GSDs my entire life because my grandfather was a k9 handler in the military with a passion for the breed. I'd love to see some reference though, I just haven't heard of any of our k9 officers not having been trained to the task only relying on their genetics. Nice assumption that all my GSDs are of poor bloodlines, though. LOL


There are more than just le dogs. In fact there are tests for defensive drive and pack drive. A well bred gsd will protect it's owner/property. Reliably.
In fact my parents gsd (I guess that makes her mine  ) protected my brother and me with 0 training. 
Its comparing apples and oranges with the purpose of le vs a well bred dog just doing what it does genetically. 

I don't understand your attempt at bickering with me. I asked you a simple question. Its ok to be wrong you know. That's how you learn something.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Close mindedness: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments: It's hard to argue with, much less convince, a closed-minded person. 

These people are just as bad:
A know-it-all or know-all is a person who constantly presents their input as though they were professionally trained, schooled or have firsthand insight into subjects when it is evident this is not the case.


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Possible compromise; the dog should in theory protect with no training....no way to know for sure until proven through training or a real life situation ossurs....


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

some of the greatest people in research , and that goes to family and friends , from microbiologists , to astronomers , to MD / practicioners of biological medicine constantly pour over every new publication , attend lectures and symposiums local and abroad , participate and attend conventions --- 
They are the specialists that others look to . 
As I said , I count these people as friends and even family members ---
They sure can put up a good debate -- but I tell you , present an idea -- out of the box , a novel approach and you can see the wheels turning.

They are open minded .


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## Kazel (Nov 29, 2016)

With LE dogs, training at least, wouldn't it at least sometimes be quite a bit different than what you'd want in an actual guarding dog?

I don't know much but it seems like a lot of times the LE dogs act more offensively and proactive? Since they have to 'go get the bad guys'?

While with a guarding dog wouldn't you want a more defensive dog, or one that doesn't react until there is a true threat? Because if you have GSDs that attack of its own cue, and gets that cue wrong. You could have a mess in your hands. So most actual guard dogs would probably never get a chance to actually demonstrate that natural willingness and clear headedness working together. Most any dog actually.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> I'm not saying it's impossible for an untrained dog to properly protect it's handler, it occasionally happens, but theories and speculations are just that, and I would rather base my opinion on the vast majority of results.


But it's not theories and speculations... it's the breed standard. 

A GSD of proper temperament should willingly engage a perceived threat with no previous training. Any GSD that does not is exhibiting a major breed fault.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

cloudpump said:


> There are more than just le dogs. In fact there are tests for defensive drive and pack drive. A well bred gsd will protect it's owner/property. Reliably.
> In fact my parents gsd (I guess that makes her mine  ) protected my brother and me with 0 training.


My boy defended me during an assault before. If he were trained it would have made things easier. I had to pull the pup off the jerkbag. LMAO But Plenty of times since then he has put himself in a position seemingly ready to defend again if need be (placing his body between myself and the "stranger", lots of cold hard stares, guarding instincts) I have no doubt he would act if in another scary situation. 

TBH if he wouldn't... then I would be severely disappointed. I picked this breed for a reason after all.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

It is not required of the breed to attack supposed threats, attacking and deterring are two different things, and as I said before I am referring to protection action as in attacking a threat. Many dogs will deter an attacker by barking and confronting, that's great and all but I wouldn't call it reliable. 

Again all I said was the training is very important, I'm sorry some disagree but I simply have not heard of any K9 officers or military dogs not having been trained, if you have proof that they exist I'm more than happy to eat crow.

I simply don't buy into these GSD facebook page ideas.

Breed standard speaks of being willing and fit to serve as a guardian dog, this does not mean training is not required to aid this service. All working dogs are great at what they do but in most cases they need training, working with field labs they aren't born knowing everything, they need a lot of training to be effective retrievers. Herding dogs need training to learn to work effectively along side humans.

This does not mean they aren't born with instinct, drive has to be there to make training possible, but training is still essential to make a reliable dog.



Raisedbyshepherds said:


> Possible compromise; the dog should in theory protect with no training....no way to know for sure until proven through training or a real life situation ossurs....


Exactly, I wouldn't rely on my dog to protect me because he has never been in the situation where that was required, so saying he would is just speculation.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I enjoy a good debate, but speculations on my personal life and experience is not necessary and does not aid you. Sticking to the topic would be more effective.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> *It is not required of the breed to attack supposed threats*, attacking and deterring are two different things, and as I said before I am referring to protection action as in attacking a threat. Many dogs will deter an attacker by barking and confronting, that's great and all but I wouldn't call it reliable.


Why are you under the impression that a GSD, as a breed, is only to be a deterrent?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Kazel said
While with a guarding dog wouldn't you want a more defensive dog, or one that doesn't react until there is a true threat? Because if you have GSDs that attack of its own cue, and gets that cue wrong. You could have a mess in your hands. So most actual guard dogs would probably never get a chance to actually demonstrate that natural willingness and clear headedness working together. Most any dog actually.

There are some good ideas and good questions in this 

You would not want a defensive dog . This is reactive and usually is a self-protective drive with a lower threshold that stimulates re action , and a lower threshold which keeps the dog out "there" and not behind you or running away out of avoidance.
Defense has fight or flight .
This is not like the airline's method of removing paying customers from seats that they over booked -- fight and drag them out - then flight can happen 

training REWARDS the dog using attributes which it already has (should have in LE !) It gives them the rules of engagement . 
Open mind --- take examples from EVERYWHERE --- Swedish Mentality Test -- citizens dogs are tested with exercises and scenarios that you can't prepare for . This EXPOSES the dogs natural proclivity to a situation . 
Young dog training should be not pattern training , but a discovery and exposure to what the dog has or has not and then making decisions on that . This will enable the handler to choose the best training techniques , tailor made to the dog . Individualized . One size does not fit all . 

A LE dog at its best is a working partner . A herding dog at its best if a working partner . A SAR dog works in concert as a working partner . 
Each player knows his share of the work and helps achieve a desired goal. 
This requires a chain of command , a clear mind , and yes , proactive action . The watchin ' your back . 
Discernment - another thing that the GSD is supposed to be bred for . Not reactive . Figuring it out -- which is helped by having life-experience showing and familiarizing the dog with the big-world with its spectrum of acceptable normal.

The person needing protection may not be aware of the threat hiding to ambush -- building searches -- 
the person needing protection may have been handicapped or knocked unconscious -- soccer hooligans and GSD protecting out of control group while handler knocked unconscious -- kept a circle of safe - space (dog recognized by awards - Swedish dog) .

No one needed to micro manage or command the dog . 

how perfect is this ?
" So most actual guard dogs would probably never get a chance to actually demonstrate that natural willingness and clear headedness working together"

the dog has that aura of authority and sober seriousness -- the oozing confidence -- the uneasiness that the aloof and neutrality to a stranger can inspire -- prevention is worth a pound of cure


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

Dracovich said:


> I've owned GSDs my entire life because my grandfather was a k9 handler in the military with a passion for the breed. I'd love to see some reference though, I just haven't heard of any of our k9 officers not having been trained to the task only relying on their genetics. Nice assumption that all my GSDs are of poor bloodlines, though. LOL


Did you live with your grandfather back then? I did live with my grandparents and my grandfather raised and trained rabbit dogs (Beagles and hunting dogs). As a young child I went with him when he was training. However, it does not make me an expert or even very knowledgeable about training rabbit dogs. I'm not saying this to be mean. My point is when you are older and have learned much more you'll understand better how much more there is to learn. I also grew up with at least one Shepherd. But I am still learning and hope I continue to do so about Shepherds. I could join a forum for hunting rabbits and training dogs and I would understand much of what they are talking about, driving, circling, etc., but I would never argue with someone who has been doing it for thirty or forty years based on my knowledge as a child growing up. I read, listen and learn on every forum I'm on.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

my point with the academics , the great minds and their openess to consider novel approaches new insights is that no matter how much you know there is always more to learn . You will never know everything .
Sometimes when you realize how much there is to learn you question whether you know anything , in the bigger scheme of things . Your own questioning can open cans of worms -- leading you to look beyond and beyond far into the expanding universe - far from home base (earth or your original ideas)


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

carmspack said:


> my point with the academics , the great minds and their openess to consider novel approaches new insights is that no matter how much you know there is always more to learn . You will never know everything .
> Sometimes when you realize how much there is to learn you question whether you know anything , in the bigger scheme of things . Your own questioning can open cans of worms -- leading you to look beyond and beyond far into the expanding universe - far from home base (earth or your original ideas)


How long have you been breeding and involved with the breed?


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Carmspac: " beyond far into the expanding universe "
Have you been reading Frank Herbert? Lol
The clear headedness and seriousness....the aura of controlled power scares the bejeezus out of people


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## LoboFloppyEars (Oct 15, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Close mindedness: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments: It's hard to argue with, much less convince, a closed-minded person.
> 
> These people are just as bad:
> A know-it-all or know-all is a person who constantly presents their input as though they were professionally trained, schooled or have firsthand insight into subjects when it is evident this is not the case.


Know it all people seem to bother me more than close minded people.

I was at the pool the other day with some friends, and this girl just starts talking to us and somehow dogs were brought up. I mentioned to her about GSDs and she said that the only split that exists in GSDs are straight back and sloped backs. I told her that they are split in 5 bloodlines and she told me that it's not true. Then I mentioned that every working breed is split into show and working lines and she told me something among the lines that it's in how you raise them. You can raise them to be show dogs or working dogs.

It's not just that she's wrong, she is SUPER WRONG. Yet she always claimed that she knew what she was talking about and always backed her opinions up by being an Animal Science Major. Anyone who knew a thing or two about dogs knows about the show line and working line split.

Not only was she a know it all she was intensely close minded. Also told me Lobo is all Lab except for the ears. *facepalm*


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

no - my sister is an astronomer with several papers out used by NASA .
I have met and lunched with many in her social circles including the man who confirmed the existance of black holes.
they all are about as open minded as one can be 

love the work Neil deGrasse Tyson is doing.

lol actually I find science fiction a bit annoying - ack --- modern morality plays -- using the 7 deadly sins to formulate characters and situations --


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## Raisedbyshepherds (Mar 30, 2017)

Lol I dont care for much of it either but Frank Herbert always made me think hard thoughts.......


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cloudpump said:


> How long have you been breeding and involved with the breed?


had my first gsd when I was 13/14 -- a grey sable , substantial female that defined gsd perfection and is what I look to find --- I took her and trained her and as a teen took her to the first schutzhund clubs and dog shows and dog obedience competitions using PUBLIC transit - we did not own a car . 
I have pictures of her with the ribbons that I won . 
I trick trained her -- and marched her to the new (cfto channel 9) TV station to get her in to the shows . Little naive , but ambitious .
She passed away -- quite by surprise at 16 and a bit years of age .
We say surprise because she led such a healthy robust life that she never needed any veterinary care - no issues . She did tub up a bit after I left home to get on with independent adult life .
I sorely would have loved to take her - she was "my" dog , my heart dog - but not suitable for the nomadic student bed-sitter , flats , existence that were my reality for the next years.
My parents insisted on raw and natural feeding because that was what they were familiar with .
My duties , rain or shine, or snow -- was to take her to the butcher's for the off cuts and scraps that he had put away druing the week . That was every Saturday. The dog was proud to carry a package home . She strutted . That was raw feeding in the 1960's .

Then I went through a succession of gsds -- that were a lot like many of the dogs discussed on the forum. 

So in total , experience as a breeder - 1975 , handling all sorts of dogs -- before and after they were split into virtual different breeds -- taking on assignments for possibilty of being an obedience trial judge, teaching classes, doing one on one training clinics for those in competition , looking at and being involved in breeding program of Canine Vision Canada --- and more and more and more --- 

sometimes it is hard to remain hopeful

that is exactly what Linda Shaw said as her book came out - paraphrasing I hope I'm not too late


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

LoboFloppyEars said:


> Know it all people seem to bother me more than close minded people.
> 
> I was at the pool the other day with some friends, and this girl just starts talking to us and somehow dogs were brought up. I mentioned to her about GSDs and she said that the only split that exists in GSDs are straight back and sloped backs. I told her that they are split in 5 bloodlines and she told me that it's not true. Then I mentioned that every working breed is split into show and working lines and she told me something among the lines that it's in how you raise them. You can raise them to be show dogs or working dogs.
> 
> ...


Let her be . I hope that her knowledge doesn't end with her "degree" .


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

I definitely have a respect for college education, but not everything is covered in college. Vets drive me crazy when they try to tell me what breed my dog is, I've had several tell me my GSDs are chow mixes because They have black spots on their tongues. 

Arguing with people who use their degree as a reason why they are right is usually pointless, if they feel they learned from credible sources then they will direct you to it, if they aren't sure they are right they only reference their degree. The online library at my college has been a great source of information, I believe most colleges have an online library where you can find scholarly articles and research. It is still available to me even though I am not taking classes this term. Sometimes it's better to let established/proven scholars assist your argument.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

Deb said:


> Dracovich said:
> 
> 
> > I've owned GSDs my entire life because my grandfather was a k9 handler in the military with a passion for the breed. I'd love to see some reference though, I just haven't heard of any of our k9 officers not having been trained to the task only relying on their genetics. Nice assumption that all my GSDs are of poor bloodlines, though. LOL
> ...


I agree, but someone asked my experience so that's the only reason I mention my upbringing with the breed, it's not to discredit anyone and there are plenty of people here with more experience and knowledge than I no doubt. I did not live with my grandpa but we inherited some of his dogs and I spent time with him. Someone decided to get personal and speculate that all my opinions are based off reading, that's the only reason I mentioned my childhood.


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