# When is it time to say no more?



## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

This is a general question, not for anyone in particular or about any dog.Move if nessecary.

When you have a dog that is fearful or aggressive,fear or bully, when do you say enough is enough with professional training?I know it is the owners responsibility to constantly continue training but when you are dealing with these specific problems does there come a point when you are wasting your money on a trainer? This is just a question so please don't be accusing or negative.


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## Chantell (May 29, 2009)

Maybe that one trainer is not working out? Maybe a different trainer, but I can see where the money would be an issue on this. Good question, would love to hear replies!


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## littledmc17 (Apr 9, 2008)

Allie if you asking then you have the wrong trainer

to this day I still talk to my trainer and if there are any problems 
he helps us and gets us into group sessions


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

That's my thoughts too.I would think if you put your all into a dog for say 2 or 3 yrs and they still can't overcome the problem it must mean something..
We'll see what the pros say..


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I think that if you are not making progress then it's time to find a different trainer, with different methods.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I'm not asking for us.It's just a question in general since I see people with older dogs working on problems.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08I think that if you are not making progress then it's time to find a different trainer, with different methods.


What if you've used multiple trainers with different methods?I'm talking say a trainer a year,not one every 6 weeks or so.


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## Sashmom (Jun 5, 2002)

Allie: whoops thought you were talking about your dog! edited..


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

I think the individual has to make that decision for him/herself. Moose has fear/aggression issues, we have consulted with 4 different trainers. I have read and tried methods from at least 3 different books. In the end, we just modify his lifestyle to keep him and others out of danger. He doesn't show aggression to us at home unless he has a high reward item. Even then, he shows clear warnings and with a firm "go to your room" he will back down.

We have a pet sitter come in who is a certified behaviorist and knows how to deal with his food aggression and guarding without getting bit. We don't take him to the pet store or other public areas. When on walks, we just tell people not to approach because he is not friendly. When we have company, Moose stays in the spare bedroom. Weekend house guests are coached to not approach him when he has food or to extend a hand toward him when his ears are back.

With these modifications, Moose has a happy/contented life. He is still a good companion to us and we don't feel in any danger from him, so no more trainers.

I am sure that the more severe the case, the more consideration should be made. Moose is a mild case.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Ruthie,
How old is Moose and when did you start training with this behavior?


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

He was a rescue, the best estimate is 9 years. We have been working with him since 9 months.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:When you have a dog that is fearful or aggressive,fear or bully, when do you say enough is enough with professional training?


I guess the way I look at it is.... Fearfulness, timidness, true dog aggression and people aggression, etc... can never really be trained out of a dog.. The best you can do is learn how to control the environment, control the dog (w/lot's and lot's of obedience) make sure the dog isn't put into situations where he is going to react and or harm someone, something or even it's self....

If you think it's a training issue then you have to step back and look at the whole picture... Are the people "really" doing what they're suppose to, following through with the training, being consistent and if there's multiple handlers are they doing the exact same that was taught, how bad is the dogs behaviors, have you seen any progress and so forth..


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Quote: I guess the way I look at it is.... Fearfulness, timidness, true dog aggression and people aggression, etc... can never really be trained out of a dog.. The best you can do is learn how to control the environment, control the dog (w/lot's and lot's of obedience) make sure the dog isn't put into situations where he is going to react and or harm someone, something or even it's self....


Exactly! Much better said than I. Moose is very trainable, and we have done a lot of obedience to deal with his issues. I am sure that as I learn more and get more experience with communicating with dogs, I will look back and say, I wish I would have... But for now, it works for us so why continue to beat our heads up against a wall and make Moose miserable in the process.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

G-burg,
So how long do the owners go to training? Is there a time when you have done all you can and just have to live with it,and modify your life?What would a reasonable time frame be for an owner?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Ruthie
> 
> 
> > Quote: I guess the way I look at it is.... Fearfulness, timidness, true dog aggression and people aggression, etc... can never really be trained out of a dog.. The best you can do is learn how to control the environment, control the dog (w/lot's and lot's of obedience) make sure the dog isn't put into situations where he is going to react and or harm someone, something or even it's self....
> ...


To me it sounds like you have done more than enough and it is just the dog you were dealt.I think for some of us we get the dog we get for a lesson.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Sometimes these dogs are a work in progress for their entire life. I dpn't know if I would continue spending money on training for more than 3 or 4 years. I feel by then I would have figured out what works and what doesn't and be working on my own.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWSometimes these dogs are a work in progress for their entire life. I dpn't know if I would continue spending money on training for more than 3 or 4 years. I feel by then I would have figured out what works and what doesn't and be working on my own.


That's my thoughts too but wanted to hear from others.
I know unless some miracle happens to us I will always be guarding Athena.I highly doubt that she will ever be play group material or be able to handle a dog coming at her. I am sure I will have to modify life in a few years permanently for her.She will always be MY work in progress.MY sweet sable girl.She was brought to me for some unknown reason and I am grateful for it.She is teaching me as I am teaching her..


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

I know what you are saying. Jon Katz mentioned this subject in one of his books, I forget which one: when to say "good enough." I think it depends on the person, the dog, and the nature and severity of the problems. My dog, Heidi sounds kind of like Athena. For instance, when our city got our first dog park, I was determined that Heidi should be a dog park dog. We took various classes, worked with a trainer in the dog park, etc. etc. We had some limited success, but I finally had to decide, as it appears you have too, that Heidi would never be able to play with a dozen dogs all at one time. But she can now be around a few dogs sometimes and I had to say good enough, as I was just out of time and money to deal with this particular problem, especially since it wasn't a life or death dilemma.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWSometimes these dogs are a work in progress for their entire life.


I look at every dog that way, some just require less work and management than others, some a lot less than others.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote: G-burg,
> So how long do the owners go to training? Is there a time when you have done all you can and just have to live with it,and modify your life?What would a reasonable time frame be for an owner?


Is this just obedience training your talking about?? If so then some people continue on for the life of the dog in classes.. others get what they want out of it and move on to doing it all on their own..

I think when ever you have an aggressive dog you have to modify your life..


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

No I'm talking aggression.I never thought of fearfulness and timidness as something forever for all dogs. 
Do you think if you catch any of these problems early (first 8 months)they can be overcome?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quoteo you think if you catch any of these problems early (first 8 months)they can be overcome?


It depends on the dogs genetics....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think it is a genetic issue, and you have to manage it thru the dogs life. Counter conditioning and maturity has helped in Onyx's case. She still has her moments though, will never be able to do SchH., which is why I now have Karlo. I accept her for who she is.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg
> 
> 
> > Quoteo you think if you catch any of these problems early (first 8 months)they can be overcome?
> ...


I thought so but wasn't sure.
How do you tell it's genetic?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: G-burg
> 
> 
> > Quoteo you think if you catch any of these problems early (first 8 months)they can be overcome?
> ...


Exactly. It depends on the genetics. Environment cannot change genetics, only modify their behavioral expression. And the extent to which environment can have an impact is also determined in large part by genetics.

Taking weak nerves (fearfulness) for example...

There are some dogs who are genetically so sound in their nerves that they can be raised in a horrible environment (no socialization, lots of bad experiences) and against what people tend to expect they will still be stable, confident dogs.

There are some dogs who are genetically so weak in their nerves that they can be raised in ideal environments (lots of socialization, training, nothing but 100% positive experiences) and they will never be completely sound and confident. They can be managed, but not fixed.

And there are some dogs, probably most dogs, who genetically are between the two extremes and thus subject to both nature and nurture. In a good environment, they will turn out fine and in a bad one they won't.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: AllieG
> How do you tell it's genetic?


Without knowing the dog's history, raising and environment, you can't be 100% sure. If you do know the dog's history, raising and environment and none of the behaviors can be pinpointed to a specific cause, it's pretty safe to assume it is genetic.

Also seeing the expression of the behavior provides some clues. If a dog is fearful in general, it's genetic. If it is fearful only of specific things, it's more likely to be environmental. 

For example, if a dog is afraid of all loud noises, it's probably genetic. If it's afraid of gunshots or fireworks, but not a car backfire, than it may be rooted in a bad experience, probably during a formative period of mental development, that was associated with that noise. If a dog is afraid of all strangers, it's probably genetic. If it's only afraid of people wearing red hats, than it probably had a bad experience, again most likely during a formative period of development, with someone wearing a red hat.

Globalized behavioral patterns tend to be genetic. Specific behavioral patterns that are triggered by specific stimuli, typically are not. Though even there, genetics plays a role. A truly strong nerved dog could have a bad experience with someone wearing a red hat and firing a gun, and get over it. It would take multiple, repeated bad experiences under those circumstances for the dog to develop an issue. Whereas with a weaker nerved dog, one or two bad experiences may be all it takes to create a long term problem.

In my experience, MOST issues are genetic. Especially with dogs of unknown background, it seems to be common to assume the dog was "abused" and that is why it acts that way. But reality is, it's more likely to be that the dog was born that way than the dog is a product of environment.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Yes, what Chris said!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I understand that.IMO My dog got all of the socializing she should have needed,positive training and no bad experiences and I ended up with a genetically weak nerved dog.Our friend got a dog,both of which are GSDs,same breeder,different parents/owner and there dog is fine with her nerves.She wasn't socialized,and has gotten no professional obedience like mine has.She is kenneled all day while they work and gets to play ball, that's all the dogs gets for a life.She is fine with other dogs and is pretty strong nerved.
It kills me.I feel like I was cheated.I also feel like Athena has been cheated also.I can only imagine how she must feel when she encounters all this scary stuff.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

It's easy to feel cheated... but look at the positives in your dog.. Focus on her good qualities more than her negative ones..


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I do,she is excellent in every other way just hates to be out of her comfort zone.The comfort zone has included the truck.While waiting for my DD to come out of school a teacher stopped at the truck and asked if she could pet her and Athena was trying to climb through the window to get to her.Had we been sitting outside the truck she probably would have shyed away.I told the trainer he need to come to our house to see the real her.She doesn't like him at the training room but I bet if he met her here she would be all over him.
I think I would rather have a dog aggressive dog than a people aggressive dog...I know they both stink but I think the dog one is easier to modify.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Allie, one way to work with Athena is not to change her, since it is her nerves, but to teach her behaviours that you can use to control how she acts and reacts in different situations. 

Keeta can be dog aggressive - she will never be allowed to play with dogs unless I know the dog very well!! So the training I did with her was not to get her to be "good" with other dogs, but to put such a high level of obedience on her that when I say heel, she heels. When I say down, she downs. When I say foos (heel with your eyes on me and if you take your eyes off me you are dead), she fooses . . . even if another crazy loose dog is rushing at us barking and howling. 

Still need the prong for control, and at this stage, it isn't like she is going to change, but that's okay. And thanks to her, I learned a lot about dog training, and learnt that I LOVE working with my dog, and really learned to appreciate all the good she has to give me in her efforts to please me. 

For a lot of dogs, if they are in a scary situation, performing obedience excercises is a comfort zone. You take control, and they like that. 

But dogs like Athena and Keeta are a life-long project.


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## JenM66 (Jul 28, 2005)

Allie - I have not read through all of these. But here's my experience. I LOVE our trainer. The guy we used to go to is amazing, national level helper, all around good guy (at least that was my experience). Gracie LOVED him - she worked for giving him kisses .... it was really cute. BUT Gracie, as you know, is a bit of a butt-head and ADHD if there ever was a dog classified as that. The birds, squirrels, blowing trees, falling leaves, you name is distracts her. She COULD NOT heel for any length of time. I know that. I know she CAN but she just couldn't. Well, he took the leash from me - with my permission. He corrected her. And corrected her. And corrected her. Gracie laid on the ground, down on her belly, and refused to move. He pulled her by the leash. She still refused to move. Once she finally got up, if he got near us, she'd hide behind me. When we'd get there for future trainings, she'd refuse to get out of the car. Sure, there are folks who'd say SHE'S A DOG make her but it was not worth it to me. The SchH title I so badly wanted was not good enough for me to fracture my relationship with my dog. When he put the electric collar on her and zapped her and she squirmed and tried to bite my hip each and every zap I realized enough was enough.

Is Gracie perfect? Absolutely not. Is she the most well behaved dog in history? Absolutely not. Does she jump on company - yes but once or twice and then she settles down. Can I walk her in the proximity of other dogs - yes. Does she lunge at dogs? No, I dont' allow her to. Is she aggressive? NOPE Is the reactive? We think it's protective of me rather than reactive to the dog.

Basically what I'm saying is, you have to go with your gut. What do you want to accomplish? I am perfectly happy with Gracie being a family member. I will modify her experiences based on her behavior. 

I have a much happier, much more relaxed dog since we stopped training. It's really quite interesting.

Two books I recommend, are Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier and The Thinking Dog by Gail Fisher. Those two books made me rethink what I was doing to my dog and allowing to be done to my dog. I no longer allow anyone to do anything to my dog. A happier dog and happier owner we are now.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

My gutt right now is to continue training.I know he isn't doing any harm to her.Right now we are working on the aggression.He agrees we have too much going on right now so we need to concentrate on the biggest issue.
I work on ob at home and except for the stay she does pretty darn good.Even outside if I say come she comes unless a cat is involved.Right now cats are the biggest enemy for me outside.From the dog encounters in our yard she comes when I call if she is out and a dog is walking by or if she is barking at the neighbors dogs.She won't heel perfect but she does not pull me unless a cat is involved..
I need to get through winter then I can reevaluate the situation and figure the next step.I am thinking come spring when I can get her out again I should have been taught enough tools to handle dog encounters and to see if she can ever be comfortable outside our property.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Allie,
thats a very good question, and i can answer it being in a similar situation with Sam, and i can tell you we will be in classes and training probably for most of the rest of his life. no problem with the trainers and training for the most part., just his unsure nature, nervy nature, and he will constantly always have to be exposed. to pull out of any social activities with him would mean sliding back into a worse situation............so, its certainly a Huge commitment in having dogs like these. all i can say, is thank god i got him and am willing to put the time in. if he hadn't been socialized, exposed, trained, etc. i can't imagine what shape he'd be in. lets put it this way, it wouldn't be pretty.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Thinking more on this issue...

I think you really need to evaluate they "why" in the training as well. Thinking back, this was part of my decision to stop trying to MAKE Moose be social. I realize the "why" was very selfish. To be brutally honest...It was because I wanted him to be social so everyone could see my cute dog (he really is a cutie) and fawn over him and they could see how great of a trainer I am to help him through this (ha! that is a laugh) and how we rescued him and made his life so much better...

The fact of the matter is I had to listen to what HE wants too. HE wants to be left alone. He doesn't enjoy going out in public where people are looking at him and wanting to pet him. He is a home body. He likes to lay on his bed and interact with me and DH and SOMETIMES Bison. This makes him happy. So pushing it, at least in my case was selfish.

It is kinda like my DH. He is a little anti-social. "Forcing" him to go to a party is strictly for MY benefit, not his. He just goes cause he loves me, not because it is fun for him. 

That is why the decision to get a dog is such a big one, you deal with what you are dealt and love 'em anyway.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Good one Ruthie,
My Hubby is the same way.He hates going out and when we do go somewhere it's for me not him.
I guess we all have different dogs and have to find the right thing for our dog.I know that no matter what, I have to keep her out in the world.If I don't she is just going to crumble when she HAS to go out.Whether I continue training past next Spring I have no idea about right now.

What if a dog doesn't get comfortable with training? Mine is OK outside with the training but you put her in the training room and she shakes for about a half hour into it.She is OK going into certain places but hates others.

Thanks for all the advice.I hope it can help others when they are on a training journey.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

alot of dogs get very nervous in enclosed spaces. especially fearish dogs.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I think it's also that she associates it with having to be with other dogs..She is OK in places like Petsmart until we get to the registers by the auto doors.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

Allie I think you've come a LONG way with Athena and you should be proud of the progress you have both made. You've stuck with her and tho she has her quirks, I know she's happy to be living with you))

I just wanted to throw that in here ))))


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i aqgree. believe me i can appreciate hard work with a dog, i am in the same boat!

don't give up! we all have good days and bad days. but the good days are what you have to focus on.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Honestly this wasn't all about us.It was just a question to pose to the experienced ones for those of us dealing with this.I see quit a few people on here with older dogs that are still trying to get the dog "fixed" and just wondered if I am being unrealistic to not be able to do this forever(professionally).At almost $300.00 for 6 weeks of classes I can't do it for too many years.I'm sure I'm not the only one either.I'm sure the money, people are laughing at, but for me it's a big deal.If this was for titles and awards that would be one thing, but to just be able to walk down any street without the fear of meeting another dog is a pain.I do know I am better able to handle her now thanks to this new trainer that puts us in the situations and has guided me.

Thank you Deb and Diane,
It feels good to have someone take note of the progress we have made.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

your definately right when it comes to the money thing, I'm sure there are MANY people out there who have dogs with behavior problems and unfortunately cannot afford to go to a trainer or behaviorist, 

with the economy the way it is, it is sure tough. Classes are NOT cheap, gosh I remember those 10 an hour ones)) 

I'm glad tho, that you have found a good trainer, because it has sounded like training with this one, you and athena have made tons of progress in a pretty short time!! (your probably paying for his kids college tuition LOL)


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

You've probably got that right.Listening to him last week he plans on retiring in 10 yrs and I know how now,besides the fact he is still a LEO,owns this store/training company and his wife is a nurse.He has 2 kids to put through college.Who's going to put mine through college????

I hesitated at the $125 for the 6 weeks of obedience....I think we're in the wrong business..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't know. There is a point where you have a good bond with the dog, but understand the dog's limitations. 

Trying to make an obedience dog out of a shy dog and pushing, pushing, pushing for that stand for exam, is not good for you, or for the shy dog. From a breeding perspective, if you had to put that much effort and finally scraped the required qualifying legs, the dog is STILL not breedworthy. Why push the dog to that point?

If you have a ten month old pup that suddenly decides it must bark and lunge at every dog it sees, yes, expose the dog to other dogs, correct, socialize, socialize, etc. If the dog reaches two or three or four and continues to aggress at every dog, then maybe it is time to accept the dog is dog aggressive and limit the opportunities. 

I look at it this way. A dog will live a perfectly happy life NEVER seeing another dog. But if your dog injures himself or another dog, or a person during the aggressive episode, then the dog may have a shortened lifespan. 

I think that sometimes our expectations are the problem. We want an agiliy or an obedience dog. We go to a reputable breeder, and we look at the temperament test, and we listen to their advice and we choose between two propective candidates. We take the pup home, and do everything right. And the pup just does not cut it. You can spend months and years trying to jam that round dog into a square peg, or you can throw up your hands and say, we'll do Rally instead. 

I spend the first year or two marking my pup's character, drive, athleticism, etc. And I expose the puppy to many things. Then I decide what kind of dog I have, and try to follow that path. 

I have one bitch that I promised never to show again. She HATED going to shows. I told her if she qualified today, that would be it for her. She qualified we got our title, and that was it. I will not move on with that bitch. She likes to be at home, where everything is familiar and comfortable. I will never breed her, but otherwise she is the perfect pet, her obedience skills are good, she does not freak out going to the vet or groomers, she has good manners in my home. But yes, she is done with classes and trainers and such.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Allie, I have a dog that 6 years ago everyone was telling me to rehome - including members of this board (who were all on another board at that time). She was, in one word, insane. 

She was nearly 2 y/o, I had a baby on the way, a husband in a coma and my male GSD who was 5 at the time. I won't go into all her issues or my issues at the time but if she hadn't been spayed, I would no longer have Morgan becuase I had a lot of interested people. 

She would have been someone else's problem. Then I'd have lost out on the great dog she grew up to be.

With everything else that was going on around us, I just let it go. I let go of trying to make her perfect. Let go of trying to fix her problems. I took a step back and said, no I have to take care of my husband, my baby and everything else in my life. This dog just won't be able to be with the baby, she won't be able to be around my family or friends, she won't be acceptable in public, she'll just be the fence dog. Whatever, I live in the city.

Guess what, she fixed her self when I stopped trying so hard. She wanted to be with me and have me be happy with her the way she was. She's a great dog now, not exactly social but she likes people now. Loves kids. Other dogs, not so much so but she can pass another dog without having a fit now.

Sometimes you just have figure out how to work with what you've got.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
> 
> In my experience, MOST issues are genetic. Especially with dogs of unknown background, it seems to be common to assume the dog was "abused" and that is why it acts that way. But reality is, it's more likely to be that the dog was born that way than the dog is a product of environment.


I've also noticed that single bad experiences of certain types at certain developmental stages in a very young pup can have huge impact on generalized issues like fear of loud noises, fear issues of inanimate objects and such, aggression issues etc. that stick with a dog it's whole life. Sometimes seemingly small things you wouldn't expect to have such a big effect.

Adopting adult dogs certainly makes you wonder where they picked up certain quirks and aspects of personality. It's rather fascinating to me at least, when I'm not being frustrated by it. 

For me it's take what you get, and do the best you can. I would love to recreate some of my best dogs of the past, or a perfect dog according to my expectations, but I have learned that's not realistic to expect even under the best of circumstances. I love my dogs quirks and all, and love their individuality, as frustrating as it can be sometimes.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Jenn it's funny about dogs fixing themselves. I had a very similar deal with Max. I sure did not have all the things you had going on, but I decided that I was tired of trying to fix Max. And over time he fixed himself. He is almost 11 and has not lunged at a dog in years, very calm, stable and sweet as the day is long. 

It tok me few years to notice he just ignored dogs on walks now, it no longer seems to matter to him and I now a lot of it was my attitude. I was so hing up on the fix that I over did it. 

All dogs are a work in progress just like people.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

While I do not believe that most fearful dogs have been abused, I do believe that a lot of dogs are screwed up by poor handling. Look at all the dogs petrified to go to the vet. 

Let's look at Cujo. When Dad takes him, he is all scared. When I take him, its no big thing. Background is that Dad is not all that keen on anything to do with medicine and was raised to believe you go to the hospital to die. Perhaps, my dad transmits some of his anxiety to the dog??? 

I saw a min pin shaking in its owners arms today. No dogs anywhere around. His owners are cuddling it and talking baby talk and telling him it is ok, etc. They were affirming to the dog that his reaction is perfectly what they are looking for.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

My feelings on trainers is that IF you have a good trainer who is helping you with your fear/aggressive dog, that trainer will give YOU tools and exercises that you can work on as long as you need to, without having to continually pay the trainer.

Of course, this is probably why I never made a lot of money teaching obedience .. *LOL* .. I felt that I succeeded when I taught the owners how to help their own dog, instead of expecting the owners to come back to me over and over and over while I raked in the dough. 

Behavior modification can work with almost every dog. But it's not the trainer that will make it work - it's the owner. It's how the owner handles their dog each minute of each day. It's the time and dedication the owner puts in to working on desensitization, going places where they can have distractions at a proper distance, finding the right situations that allow them to reward their dog for the "good" behaviors while avoiding the "bad" ones. It takes a good trainer to give the owner the right skills, but if a owner is not fully dedicated than the dog is probably not going to go far.

I feel that most fearful dogs (and most dogs that are aggressive are fear aggressive, so it all falls into the same basic category) need to have private lessons so that the trainer can work with the owner one-on-one. Once the dog has gone through the desensitization to the point where they can handle dogs/people/whatever scares them even while fairly close, a class situation might be helpful. But to start a fearful dog in a class generally overwhelms them, and because there are so many dogs/handlers in a class the owner doesn't get the individual advice they really need.

Most of the dogs I've helped with fear problems have only needed to come to private lessons a few times, and the owners continue to work on the lessons at whatever pace is needed for that dog. If the owners need a refresh course, we do another lesson but I don't see any reason for people to shell out money week after week if they're just working on the same things all the time.

As far as taking classes month after month - well, a lot of people really enjoy the classes and if you have a dog that is handling it well, it can be great fun and a great social experience for both dog and handler. Even as a trainer myself, I often took my dogs to classes so that I could practice around distractions and visit with other dog people. Some people spend money on big screen TVs, fancy stereo equipment, vacations, fancy clothes .. my money was generally spent on dog related activities, which included the classes. And I, too, have had a fearful dog and the classes helped considerably to bring that dog through the fear. It literally took years before she would willingly approach another person, but she ended up finding a level of confidence that made her a much happier dog. I don't think that dogs that are allowed to be fearful (those that could be worked through it) are nearly as happy as those who have developed confidence through behavior modification and properly timed positive reinforcement.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

What your all saying is helping my mind.We have 2 sessions left,she still reacts to dogs,do I continue private or group or do I do it on my own now that I know what I am doing? Unless today is better,she hates being in the training room and with the weather turning sour I don't know how much outdoor training we can do.We can walk with another dog or 2 which in the Spring was not going to happen.She has her initial fit when she sees the dog but a good correction and she stops and sits or walks what ever I want her to do.She also listens to command now where as she wouldn't listen for crap before.She is coming along so I'm not sure if I should keep pushing or ease off.What would you guys do?
Thanks again.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

In my opinion, I would keep on keeping on. If you ease off, she may backtrack and it sounds to me like you are getting somewhere. 
I think you are doing a good job, and it will be ongoing management thruout Athena's life. I have recently slacked w/ Onyx's exposure and took her to the school this am, she barked/growled at everyone she saw(we were in the car, so it was from a distance ,she was not being pushed at all) so I know I have to start getting her out more to desensitize her once again.


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## [email protected] (Apr 8, 2009)

Thank you Allie for this post. My dog is fearful around strangers and I am always looking for information to help him. I love to hear about what others are doing with their dogs. I wish there was a section dealing with just this issue.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

All my training posts have been on hopes of just one person learning something.I'm glad I can help.It is one of the worst things to be faced with, besides death.There are so many opinions and not one right answer.
We can always start an aggression thread that would help all of us going through it or we can PM each other to talk.
Good Luck with your dog.I can feel your pain.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Listen to your dog, what is she telling you?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieListen to your dog, what is she telling you?


MOMMY,get me out of this training room.......

But should we always listen to them?

She acts better outside then inside when we train.


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Should we ALWAYS listen to them? Of course not.

But, we should certainly take what they are saying into consideration. All GOOD relationships are like that. Like when your kids tell you that they don't like peas. Are you being a good parent to make them peas every night for dinner? Isn't better to let them eat the broccoli that they do like? The point is getting veggies, not the fact that you are bigger and can MAKE them eat peas.

I would never recommend to someone to stop training. I strongly believe that training is a life-long experience between you and your dog. Bison is doing SchH and Moose gets a lot of the same training, just at home or at the park where there aren't a bunch of people or dogs around. He loves it.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that if Athena is telling you that she doesn't like training in the training facility then you might want to concider other options. Is a in home trainer an possibility? You can also continue to socialize her in different ways.

Example, Moose did fine at the in door dog park. It is a room with lots of couches where people are all sitting watching their dogs and he could approach or not approach as HE pleased. He ran around and backed up to people rather than greeting them face to face. He enjoyed all the butt scratches. LOL!!!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:Listen to your dog, what is she telling you?


Amen!!!

That's the reason I stopped trialing my one shepherd in AKC obedience.. She did not enjoy it... So we do other things together.. Things that she does enjoy..


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

IMO, yes we should ALWAYS listen. We shouldn't always do what they want, obviously, or we'd be standing at the treat jar all day long dispensing them. But we should always do what is best for them, and listening to the dog provides tremendous insight into what is best for the dog. It can be very hard to divorce what is best for the dog from our own wants and dreams and desires, but it's what we have to do.

If I had a dog who did not enjoy training, or even leaving the house, and was not improving in that respect after much time and effort trying different things, I would stop. If it becomes clear that the dog is stressed by this and dislikes it, and it is a situation where environment and training is not going to be able to change that about the dog, IMO to continue would be to essentially make the dog suffer because the owner cannot accept things for the way they are and is placing his/her own wants ahead of the needs of the dog.

We actually do have a dog like this. She washed out of SchH very early because while she likes to play, she doesn't like to work, and while she has quite a bit of drive and loves to use it, she is only comfortable and happy in a stress free, familiar environment. She'll perform beautiful obedience at home. Put her on a training field and if she feels one ounce of pressure from environment, helper, handler, the presence of other dogs (she is fear aggressive toward strange dogs) or anyone else, she stresses out. So she's a pet. And a very happy one. Had she been forced to endure the constant stress of continued training because we wanted her to, she'd not be happy.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I tried the in home training and wasn't getting the help I needed.He came 2xs and just told me how to do things,didn't show me. I think if I can find people with dogs and keep getting her out I can do what I am paying some $300. to show me.I know she DID NOT like the obedience training and I think it was because it was too many dogs in too small an area.I wish I had realized she had a problem before doing that dam 6 week class.I think things would be different had I started with private.

I think what I will do is take the rest of this year off then reevaluate the situation come 2010.I have today's and one more session with this trainer then we're done.I think I have to skip next week any way since I have too much planned at the times I usually train.So maybe a week off will help her.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is there something that Athena enjoys doing? Maybe focus on that aspect and just relax with the rest of it for awhile. 


> Originally Posted By: Chris WildIMO, yes we should ALWAYS listen.
> 
> We actually do have a dog like this. She washed out of SchH very early because while she likes to play, she doesn't like to work, and while she has quite a bit of drive and loves to use it, she is only comfortable and happy in a stress free, familiar environment. She'll perform beautiful obedience at home. Put her on a training field and if she feels one ounce of pressure from environment, helper, handler, the presence of other dogs (she is fear aggressive toward strange dogs) or anyone else, she stresses out. So she's a pet. And a very happy one. Had she been forced to endure the constant stress of continued training because we wanted her to, she'd not be happy.


That was my situation with Onyx. And because I loved the sport, I took her to the club longer than I should have, thinking she'd eventually come around...never happened.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGWhat your all saying is helping my mind.We have 2 sessions left,she still reacts to dogs,do I continue private or group or do I do it on my own now that I know what I am doing?[..] so I'm not sure if I should keep pushing or ease off.What would you guys do?
> Thanks again.


I would back down a bit with the formal training. You need to keep taking her out for walks even though the weather is getting crappy. Break out the snow pants and take her out or she'll back slide over the winter. 

Personally, I think a lot of this has to do with age and experience. The more she experiences, the less likely she is to react. For example, if over the winter she walks past (but not through) 50 automatic doors, by spring she'll learn that's just how some doors open (I do have admit, fear of the automatic door is not something I've ever dealt with).



> Originally Posted By: G-burg
> 
> 
> > Quote:Listen to your dog, what is she telling you?
> ...


Morgan didn't care for ring style OB either. Her OB is dead on, most obedient dog I've ever had. Does she want to show it off to other people, no way. 

What does Athena seem to enjoy, the river across the street, hiking? You have the tools on how to handle her, just take her out to what she likes then gradually increase her comfort circle.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

She just loves to be home and running around the yard playing ball.She likes to go on strolls in the park up the road or in the field. I haven't been able to try anything with her with her attitude.We tried agility at home but she won't jump things you want her to.She will jump over the stone wall to catch her ball but not a stick and blocks...


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGI think if I can find people with dogs and keep getting her out I can do what I am paying some $300. to show me.










well you've got me and Dawn, niether of is going to charge you a penny. Get in that tank and drive it!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Ya I know.I have to get over my fear of Mass driving..At least I have the neighbor now,she isn't scared of us anymore....


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## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildIMO, yes we should ALWAYS listen. We shouldn't always do what they want, obviously, or we'd be standing at the treat jar all day long dispensing them. But we should always do what is best for them, and listening to the dog provides tremendous insight into what is best for the dog. It can be very hard to divorce what is best for the dog from our own wants and dreams and desires, but it's what we have to do.


Exactly the distinction I was trying to make! Listen yes! Do what they say, not always. And it is really difficult to divorce what is best for the dog from your own desires. 

Training, IMO, is should always be two sided. The dog and the experience should always make you grow and make you a better person too, hence my previous post encouraging you to think about the "why".


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGYa I know.I have to get over my fear of Mass driving..At least I have the neighbor now,she isn't scared of us anymore....


Nashua or Salem are only about an hour for me (yeah, I drive like an animal)


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RuthieListen to your dog, what is she telling you?


ROFL, mine is telling me she wants to spend all day out hunting for small creatures to molest... And eat treats and sleep once the streets are clear.

It's her job to watch everything I do and to patrol the streets and keep the neighborhood free and safe from squirrels, cats and any critters but people and dogs, and to meet and greet all the people and dogs she sees with a lick in the face.


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## TxRider (Apr 15, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: luv my RoganThank you Allie for this post. My dog is fearful around strangers and I am always looking for information to help him. I love to hear about what others are doing with their dogs. I wish there was a section dealing with just this issue.


My new girl is that way, I have been taking her daily around people and telling them how to act with her. She has actually taken treats from a few strangers now, when usually she refuses unless they drop it for her and sometimes even then.

I have an advantage that I also have Hope along with her, who is much bigger and not shy with strangers at all and enthusiastically greets all dogs and their owners and kids. So Kaya can hang back, and watch how Hope handles it and how I handle it. I think that really helps her.


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## dit (Oct 25, 2009)

Have you or the owner consulted with a behaviorist (vs a trainer)? Has the"training" program included desensitization? Fear aggression can be extremely difficult to overcome and can be genetic. Maybe a DVM behaviorist (there are not that many in the USA) could help. If the problem is severe, I would invest in that before saying "enough is enough."


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

allie, I would do what others have suggested,,you've got 2 classes left, this trainer has helped you immensely (I think) and I think he's given YOU the tools you need to continue yourself..

If she is stressed out/uncomfortable in the building, your not going to get anything out of her because she's too stressed..

Masi HATED puppy class, most likely cause she got jumped every darn time we went(long story),,tho I didn't have to 'drag' her thru the door and she wasn't a quivering bag of nerves in the place,,I know she was stressed and did not want to go there. I yanked her out and started going to another facility (very different training methods as well) and she LOVES it, she eagerly goes in, there are just as many dogs if not more, but it is way more controlled..Masi likes "order" and likes situations that are more "controlled"..

So with that in mind, I would work on her this winter, continue the socializing, training yourself, and do as you said, reaccess in the spring and heck you can always go back to this guy and do outside stuff..))

I know how hard you've worked with this girl, and again, I admire you sticking with her, and you've done a great job with her!!


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ditHave you or the owner consulted with a behaviorist (vs a trainer)? Has the"training" program included desensitization? Fear aggression can be extremely difficult to overcome and can be genetic. Maybe a DVM behaviorist (there are not that many in the USA) could help. If the problem is severe, I would invest in that before saying "enough is enough."


If this was directed to me here's my answer.
The first in home trainer was supposedly a behaviorist.He said she was anxious and needed to be worked at slow.It would take time.I agreed but needed more help at how to handle her when out.He wasn't willing to help.
One SchH trainer wanted board and train and another wanted to use the remote collar.This one was willing to work with me with a method I was willing to do.
We are making progress,today proved it.My training thread explains all we have been through.I'm not giving up,I never will.I may lay off a bit but not give up.After today I might go another 6 week round but we'll see,he may just let us loose.Either way I am more positive now.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: AllieGYa I know.I have to get over my fear of Mass driving..At least I have the neighbor now,she isn't scared of us anymore....
> ...


Great,now I have to find a place in those areas to have a good meet up and walk the dogs...


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

My dog HATES strangers and has since a puppy. What I taught my dog is to tolerate strangers.What I have taught strangers is "Sorry this dog doesn't like to be touched." I have had three other dogs that were fine with strangers. Jazmin was a therapy dog. My GSD,Paige, will NEVER be a friendly dog. All I ask of her is to ignore people. the sooner I accepted that about her the better off I was.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

That's all I am looking for at this point.I went into training hoping for a doggie play group dog but have since learned a lot of what sets her off and feel it will never happen.That's fine,I just want to be able to take her out and about and not have her so worked up over meeting another dog on our walks.


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## Ucdcrush (Mar 22, 2004)

SuzyE touches on what I was going to mention - acceptance. I would also say that expecting perfection can set you up for defeat, and adds pressure. It sounds as if you are frustrated, and that is from pressure, you are not reaching the ideal you have set in your mind and it bothers you.

It sounds like you need a different mindset, possibly combined with a different approach. Dropping the need for perfection does not mean you have to give up, and it does not mean you have to aim for mediocrity. It means you can accept and not become frustrated when things don't go perfect. Paradoxically, this tends to help your performance.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

I was frustrated 5 weeks ago.I am less frustrated now since I have been given the tools to work with.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

there are so many training methods out there, so many activities for dogs, so many options.
i never thought Sam would do well in Agility because he is so unpredictable, nervy and unsure. we overcame his running out issues on the course, and he is doing fantastic with the Agility itself. i am happy with that accomplishment. i want to compete with him, but honestly i do not know how well he will do in a setting with alot of people and dogs. i am going to try taking him into these settings and see how he does. it might be to uncomfortable for him he gets very nervous when alot is going on, but i gotta give him a chance. if it doesn't work, who cares, i will still do agility classes and keep seeking new things for him to try.

as far as the dog interactions. for us, i had to just let go of my anxiety about Sam charging other dogs. with thew help of my trainer in class we let him go, corrected him when he was getting nasty, rewarded him for doing proper doggie meets, sniffing, etc. he is now a bit more relaxed with the dogs, now we need to work on people....................its an ongoing process of one step forward two steps back. easy to get frustrated, but also with the right mind set you have to stay positive because frustration does rub off on the dogs.

so, i think again, if you had the right trainer, a set up with mild dogs in a playtime setting and the right corrections, dogs do learn alot from each other. you gotta let go of the anxiety with dog to dog meetings and just let it happen in a controlled enviroment with a good trainer present. this is how they learn. it might look nasty in the beginning but i think thats what needs to happen. its helped me to just jump in and do that with both my young dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I think agility training builds confidence,too.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

yes, it sure does. any activity will. but the Agility would be great for any insecure dog if your willing to put the time and effort in.

that might be another option for Athena. maybe a small class, with mild dogs. talk to the trainer before hand see if she's willing to help with Athena's issues with other dogs. just being around other dogs in class will help...........

seriously, i think you just need to dive in. we all tend to be protective of our dogs with issues. sometimes you just have to let go of that and do whats best for the dog.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

The one place I know of wants well behaved dogs so I'll have to check other places.Would doing it on our own help?If so I can get Hubby to build a thing or 2 and do it through the winter.Lexi would do it too.She loves to jump.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I took Onyx to an agility class after we did the control unleashed class. She did way better than I expected and has always had reactiveness to the sheltie/aussie breeds. Well those are dominate in the agility classes, so we had our work cut out for us.
She did really well. The only dog that was an issue was a rough coat collie whose owner was clueless. The dog wouldn't listen and ran up to Onyx more than once. If I hadn't gone thru the CU class with her we would have had a different outcome for sure!
Onyx enjoyed running the course so much I think her guard was down as well. She never mastered the weave polls or the teeter(that freaked her out), but I was very proud of her~ a-frame, dog walk and tunnels were a blast for her! By the 5th week, she was off leash for some of it.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Jane,
thats great what Onyx accomplished! i think most dogs can gain alot of confidence with Agility we are living proof as are so many others.
sometimes you can have a the privat training in the world, but what the dog really needs is an activity to build confidence and gain social skills at the same time. if i had to give anyone advice i would say do the activity and rehabilitate rather than spend 100"s of $$$$$$ on private training.

you can do agility on your own, but the object is to find a class with a good trainer that will work with you and Athena. most agility trainers have seen tons of dogs with issues succeed in their years of training in the sport.

funny about the aussies and the border collies, they are always rivals with the gsd's...lol


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: debbiebJane,
> thats great what Onyx accomplished! i think most dogs can gain alot of confidence with Agility we are living proof as are so many others.
> sometimes you can have a the privat training in the world, but what the dog really needs is an activity to build confidence and gain social skills at the same time. if i had to give anyone advice i would say do the activity and rehabilitate rather than spend 100"s of $$$$$$ on private training.
> 
> ...


So if I do it I should make sure neither of these breeds are in it?J/k

Looking at the one place that does it,it is cheap compared to obedience.I'll look into it.Right now I don't see classes listed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This time of year, it is hard to find indoor agility available. The class size is limited, so they fill quick. Get a jump on it!!
If you can do daytime, I know my place held classes then that were easier to get into.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

you are going to probably find aussies and BC's in most agility classes, but don't let that stop you from doing it.

this time of year you won't find outdoor agility, but they do have inside intro to agility which will introduce some of the equipment and get you started. they probably do some OB with it. you might want to see if you can join a puppy agility class. these classes are usually mixed with puppies and adults. which is good.

go observe, talk with the trainer, i can guarentee a good trainer will tell you the same thing......the agility would be the best thing for building Athena's confidence. i really think you should seriously look into it. what you two will accomplish together means more than the frustration your having with private trainers.........you need to be out in public and tackling the issues. private training is good for some, but from what i have read about Athena i really think she would gain tons more with this approach.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

And most of all its FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! she will love it....much more exciting than boring private training......and you will like it too.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

A couple of things.

PLEASE pay attention to Jen's post:



> Quote:
> Two books I recommend, are Bones Would Rain from the Sky by Suzanne Clothier and The Thinking Dog by Gail Fisher. Those two books made me rethink what I was doing to my dog and allowing to be done to my dog. I no longer allow anyone to do anything to my dog. A happier dog and happier owner we are now.


My ideas of dog training have evolved over the years. These two books are a GREAT place to start.

There are very good highly respected dog trainers (that are very likable) who can be like a screwdriver. Every dog, to them, is a screw. That's what works for them -- it's always worked, and they see no reason to change. Except, it doesn't always work. People like you (and me) end up with some improvement, maybe. But is there a lot of improvement, really? Once we set aside the fact that we really like Bob or Sandy a lot, and really think about it, did we see that much improvement? Maybe or maybe not.

Then there are trainers who have a huge assortment of theories and techniques that they can draw upon. They assess the dog that's in front of them and decide what is best for THIS dog right NOW.... which may not have been what was best for her 6 months ago, and may not be what's best for her 2 years from now. They may be able to tell you what's weak in your dog's temperament, but that doesn't stop the conversation and it's never used to justify hurting your dog. 

I have found, btw, that reactive dogs tend to become more reactive with harsh techniques. I'm sure others will disagree with me. But as Melanie said in her excellent post, behavior modification can be quite effective, without shutting the dog down (which is sometimes what we get from harsh techniques-- but this can be confused with compliance if we're not careful). I don't know exactly what your dog's issues are, and I don't know what techniques have been used on her. But I've seen too many GSDs being yanked around by prong collars because they're reactive, so I thought I'd toss this out there. 

If you ever say "no, I don't want to do X," and you can provide a reason (even if it's that it seems to be too harsh), then a talented trainer can fall back and try something else. 

That's the kind of trainer I use now. And it's the sort of training that I espouse when I help others. Let's look at the DOG. What *I* do best is irrelevant if it's not what the dog will accept best. 

Another thing I'd like to underline is that <u>Athena's DOB is May 08, </u> according to your signature. My gosh, she's a teenager, in all of her glory!!!! 

Maybe she does have temperament issues that are genetic. Perhaps she does have weak nerves. She almost certainly does need ongoing training for the foreseeable future. But until she gets an adult brain, I hate for anyone to tell you that this is a dog that you have to "manage" for the rest of her life. Adolescence is a trying time for both owners and dogs. I don't want to sugarcoat it. She may not emerge to be the perfectly calm GSD you always dreamed of.

But a good friend of mine explained to me, when I was struggling with my last GSD -- she said that her dog was a nightmare. She was dog reactive, impossible to walk, etc. Then one day, when the dog was almost three years old, my friend walked into the kitchen -- she said that it did seem to happen overnight -- and the regal GSD bitch she had always dreamed of was lying next to the door, calmly waiting for her walk. She took her for a walk, which was a joy. The two of them lived a peaceful life for the next 11 years.

I held on to that story through the challenging times (and continued to go through classes --including agility and tracking lessons -- and take private lessons). He could be perfect so much of the times (when working), then a screwball at others. But when my dog was about 2 years, 2 months, he seemed to have an overnight "awakening." It was as if he quit his 3 pots of coffee habit overnight. He was decaffeinated, calm and lovely to have around ALL of the time. The screwy Red-Bull-drinking teenager was gone.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Good post 3K9Mom,

i agree getting any dog through the first two years, going through all the quirky stages (some more than others) etc,

whats important is to build confidence by doing activities as mentioned above. i also believe because this dog is young the need to get out there and engage in classes around dogs, people, things is a must. private training is ok, if a person wants one on one lessons on how to handle the dog, but what works the best is to have exposure regularly in public situations such as class interactions. its easy to avoid being around things that make the dogs uncomfortable, but its not going to help them learn whats appropriate behavior and whats not. they need to be in situations so we can catch behaviors and teach appropriate behavior.

i think us humans are more afraid of failing with our dogs in public/class situations, but thats how we learn. again, if you have a good trainer in a class situation and you stay with it, things will come around.


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

You can get your dog to be non-reactive but you may never get it to enjoy the company of other dogs/people.I know it is kind of a bummer because we all want a Rin Tin Tin but not all dogs are alike.like I mentioned I have had other dogs so those are the dogs I take to work etc. but Paige still does the fun events we just keep our distance. I know it is a little embarassing to say "sorry my dog doesn't like to be touched" especially when they are gorgeous like Paige and people are drawn to her but seriously when i stopped trying to change her personality and just made it clear to her that she can't act a fool our lives were much better. One thing I know about working with dogs is that when you are serious-they listen.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think you can still do social activities with them and should even though they are touchy, you just need to work with it.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i know it does stink having a dog that people can't touch or pat, i have one of those...........i just tell people when they come up, he is in training so i prefer people not to touch him, when in reality who knows how he's react. he might be good one minute let someone pat him and the next minute growl, or even nip............ but you learn to work with it. i keep plugging along, keep things social, just keep going.....i have no choice.....


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