# Send away proofing



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

How do you proof the send away?

I mean, I know several methods to teach the behaviour, but I've not been able to get past the point where the dog runs to a target (even an imaginary target)But how do you get to the point where the dog just runs forward in the trial, in a new field? I used what is described in "Schutzhund Obedience, Training in Drive" to teach the _voraus_ and teaching to run behind the recall point has helped (and has not backfired as some predicted) but I still can't trust the dog to run forward without see the reward being put ahead.

I know I'm missing a lot of steps to reach the goal and I would like to know what you use.


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

I will back chain it and use a lot of cues to make the exercise predictable. I use a food reward for the send out- a can of sardines. I also place my reward at the end of the field initially. I prep the bowl and the can, back by the car. Initially walk my dog to the field and let him see me place it. Over time though, I stop letting him come with me. I'll prep the bowl by the car, walk out, place it. Come back, get the dog, potty him, and then take him to the field and send him. Then take him to the field, do a retrieve and send him. Then take him to the field do some motions, the retrieves, and then send him. So he gets in the habit of always running to the end of the field after exercises to get his big bowl of sardines. 

Now I know some people proof the voraus with electric. I have never seen it done. Usually as long as the dog has a clear concept of what the voraus means it's not a problem. Additionally, when you go to a new field one fo the few things you do to warm your dog up on the field is show them the voraus spot. Over time and with lots of reps in different places the dogs will generalize that voraus means the reward is at the end of the field.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

The send-away.....Round 2.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I am sort of a free-shaping nerd/purist and that part of me doesn't like sending the dog to a target as a "lure". However I cheated and did that for a few sessions, just to imprint to the dog that "voraus" = run away from me. Shortly after, I began giving the command and THEN tossing a toy out in front of the dog. At first, I throw the toy almost immediately to simply reinforce the dog taking off in a straight line away from me. Then I just build on that until I'm counting 4 full seconds or so before throwing the toy. It's kinda funny b/c I throw like a girl so I've had to practice throwing far enough and straight enough to properly reward the dog in the right spot.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My dogs learn a command that means the send out is coming. I teach the dog to mark as part of the process. I say "mark" and a signal with my left hand. The dogs learns from the get go that means that we are doing the send out. Then I also pattern it with the retrieves. We do the retrieves, then go do the send out. 

So, at first I will have them see me put the toy out there and work on the send out starting close and working my way back up the field. Then I will add in the retrieves, but still take the toy out before the send out. Then I take the toy out before the retrieves (dog watching), do the retrieves and then the send out (always using my "mark" signal). Eventually the ball is put out before I go on the field. Once I have done this on my home field, I have found I can run the toy out one or two times on a strange field and my dog will go out on trial day. They understand that part of the exercise.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I do it like JKlatsky did, but with a tug toy on a send-away post. I haven't done any profing work yet (with Keeta, there was no point, not like I was going to travel to trial her). What others in our club do is have the tug on the ground or use a small portable, home-made send away post, and practice the send away in lots of different places. At first, the dog needs to see you put the tug out to know what she/he needs to do, but then you start not letting the dog see you put out the tug, then you start doing obedience on the new field before sending out for the tug, and so on. 
Do this enough, you go somewhere brand new, start doing retrieves, then send the dog, and they run like crazy believing their is a toy out there for them. 

I'll be trying that with Gryff - I'll let you know how it goes!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

With Diabla I did about what JKlatsky describes... or started to, then I almost lost hopes of titling her on a SchH I and while I've never stopped training the voraus completely, I stopped being disciplined about it and making real progress.

Tomorrow I'll receive a dog from my SAR team, my mission is to prepare the obedience part of the RH exam for the IRO certification. Almost all the obedience is exactly like SchH but the order of the exercises is by drawing lots, with the exception of the send away that is always the last exercise. That leaves me without the recall clue I was using with Diabla and without the retrieves clue Lisa suggest, or at least it will be more difficult.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Use a word cue then, like Lisa said. As you walk up to your starting position for the send out, use a word or a movement that will let the dog know that the send out is coming up next.


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## szariksdad (Jun 25, 2010)

What we do at our club is to use a a pvc stick that is segmented to mark where the toy is so that when the dog starts it sees a stick say 2ft high. However as we build confidences in the dog we then take to shortening the stick to where it disappears. Also along the way we start with building them with the knowledge that the toy will be there. Then as part of proofing we make like the toy is there and with sleight of hand while we look like we are placing the toy it goes in the back of training vest. And when the dog arrives and does its down in the voraus we then reward with an okay and a a toss of the toy.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

I already know that you do not want to make forced go-outs. OK. This is what I would do if I were you.
What you need:
1. go-out post (portable)
2. A lot of balls
3. An assistant

Steps:

The dog already knows to run to the target when he sees you put it there, so we will start at this point.

1. Allow the dog to see you put a ball on the go-out post
2. Make your "go-out cue", do the buildup and send the dog
3. After the dog has got the ball and is running back towards you the assistant places another ball on the go-out post
4. The dog reaches you and you tug with the ball then out the dog
5. Make your cue, do the buildup and send the dog

At this point the dog will not go because he knows he already got the ball and you have not placed another at the end of the field. So what you need to do is simply run with the dog towards the post repeating "voaus,voraus,voraus"; when the dog gets the ball celebrate and play tug.

6. Play tug while your assistant places another ball on the post.
7. out the dog. Cue, buildup, send (running with the dog if required)
8. repeat, repeat, repeat steps 2-7
9. Repeat steps 1-8 on a different field


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

lhczth said:


> My dogs learn a command that means the send out is coming. I teach the dog to mark as part of the process. I say "mark" and a signal with my left hand. The dogs learns from the get go that means that we are doing the send out. Then I also pattern it with the retrieves. We do the retrieves, then go do the send out.
> 
> So, at first I will have them see me put the toy out there and work on the send out starting close and working my way back up the field. Then I will add in the retrieves, but still take the toy out before the send out. Then I take the toy out before the retrieves (dog watching), do the retrieves and then the send out (always using my "mark" signal). Eventually the ball is put out before I go on the field. Once I have done this on my home field, I have found I can run the toy out one or two times on a strange field and my dog will go out on trial day. They understand that part of the exercise.


Lisa do you do a forced retrieve? The reason I ask is I paired my retrieves with my voraus with my Rottweiler reason being was the dogs send out was mediocre at best. We did a force with him his ball drive was good for a Rottweiler as Rottweilers go. So we did a force and he responded great and his retrieves were smoking. Any way my TD said lets start pairing the retrieves with the voraus she said the pressure from the retrieves will come out as a release and the dog will explode into the send out, and it did he ran like he was shot out of a canon, pairing the 2 worked like a charm. 
I'm going to guess your reasoning wasn't exactly the same as mine. I haven't done it this way since.
Now I use a small marker on the field with a toy and have taught my dogs to run straight and they will see the marker and there will be a toy I never ever put my marker and toy at the end of the field, and I never put my marker and toy closer than ware ware the platz will be given. The rest is simple once a year away from the field wile playing or hes in some sort of very high drive state I will HOLLER PLATZZZZ!!!! and hit him with the electric and he hits the ground like a sack of potatos!!! 
Only once have I ever done this on the field. He only here's PLATZZZZ!!!! on the trile field just the one time at training works like a charm. "so far"
Oh I do que and set up my dog for the send out similar to what your set up is Lisa.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Also, I dislike putting the ball on the ground because you then have the dog running down the field with his nose to the ground. 

I also do not like to throw the ball over the dog's head as this creates the behavior of either the dog running down the field with his head turned to watch you or the dog runs a bit and stops to look at you then runs a little bit further and stops and turns to look at you.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

Zahnburg said:


> Also, I dislike putting the ball on the ground because you then have the dog running down the field with his nose to the ground.
> 
> I also do not like to throw the ball over the dog's head as this creates the behavior of either the dog running down the field with his head turned to watch you or the dog runs a bit and stops to look at you then runs a little bit further and stops and turns to look at you.


Hence why I use a marker or would consider hanging a toy but first the dog has to be taught to run straight and trust/know that it will be out there lotso reps.
I tried every thing with the Rottweiler food worked the best but was still ****. The pressure from the retrieves and me chasing his fat ass down the field a couple of times did the trick ditched the food and started using a sleeve for a reward also


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Joker,

That was not directed at you, or anyone really, just some common problems. Personally, I am a firm believer in forced go-outs, which is just an extension of the forced retrieve. And the whole beauty of the schutzhund routine is that when you train the retrieves the dog is more than happy to run away from you in the next exercise which, coincidently, is exactly what they need to do.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Joker said:


> Lisa do you do a forced retrieve? The reason I ask is I paired my retrieves with my voraus with my Rottweiler reason being was the dogs send out was mediocre at best. We did a force with him his ball drive was good for a Rottweiler as Rottweilers go. So we did a force and he responded great and his retrieves were smoking. Any way my TD said lets start pairing the retrieves with the voraus she said the pressure from the retrieves will come out as a release and the dog will explode into the send out, and it did he ran like he was shot out of a canon, pairing the 2 worked like a charm.


Yes, but I also did the same type of send out and having the send out follow the retrieves with my first schutzhund and she had a play/PP retrieve. 

On another note. When I am going to add in the down command I will not have a toy out there. I don't want my dog rewarded for ignoring the command. The down is also a separate exercise and, except for Vala, I have always done very few downs during the actual send out. 

Can't remember who said it, but I also don't like the ball on the ground for the same reason. I don't want my dog's head down searching for the ball. I use either a tree, the rock at the end of our field, or in the past I have used something to hold the ball off of the ground. I want my dog to run fast and straight until told to down.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> I also do not like to throw the ball over the dog's head as this creates the behavior of either the dog running down the field with his head turned to watch you or the dog runs a bit and stops to look at you then runs a little bit further and stops and turns to look at you.


I can see this being a problem however it hasn't happened for us. The dog is never rewarded for doing it incorrectly. If he did stop to check or was running sideways, I wouldn't throw the ball and would back up the process because that indicates a mistake on the handler's part. The behavior is "sprint straight out away from me". I just lengthen the distance by waiting to throw. No other behaviors are ever allowed or rewarded. The dog is trained to understand the voraus is not the same as playing a game of fetch, so rather than thinking he's running to something he understands that he's running fast in a straight line until given a release (indicating the ball is coming) or another command like the platz. It's sort of an odd form of freeshaping, and a dog that doesn't do a lot of true freeshaping would probably learn faster with another method like a forced send out or running out to a marker. I like all the methods equally but choose freeshaping because the dog responds well to that form of training and it's the easiest for me. I would do a miserable job with a forced send-out, not because I am against using force (I am not) but I have no experience with that method.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

lhczth said:


> On another note. When I am going to add in the down command I will not have a toy out there. I don't want my dog rewarded for ignoring the command. The down is also a separate exercise and, except for Vala, I have always done very few downs during the actual send out.


Another important point


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I can see this being a problem however it hasn't happened for us. The dog is never rewarded for doing it incorrectly. If he did stop to check or was running sideways, I wouldn't throw the ball and would back up the process because that indicates a mistake on the handler's part. The behavior is "sprint straight out away from me". I just lengthen the distance by waiting to throw. No other behaviors are ever allowed or rewarded. The dog is trained to understand the voraus is not the same as playing a game of fetch, so rather than thinking he's running to something he understands that he's running fast in a straight line until given a release (indicating the ball is coming) or another command like the platz. It's sort of an odd form of freeshaping, and a dog that doesn't do a lot of true freeshaping would probably learn faster with another method like a forced send out or running out to a marker. I like all the methods equally but choose freeshaping because the dog responds well to that form of training and it's the easiest for me. I would do a miserable job with a forced send-out, not because I am against using force (I am not) but I have no experience with that method.


You need a good set of lungs and fast legs for a force send out


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I know the send out can be taught with electric. I have seen it done. I would consider it a form of force.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I have nothing against forced voraus, but there are several reasons why I'm not trying it with this dog:

1.- I have not seen it done in operson and the risk of doing it wrong with internet directions is higher than trying motivational methods. I hope some day someone can show me in person te right way to do it, in the mentime I'll try what i know better.
2.- This dogs has already a fundation with target send away, so it will be quicker to keep the same route.
3.- This female is more sensitive that my own dogs and we are just knowing each other, since I don't have a lot of time for bonding, the risk of screwing up her are bigger.

I had seen the ball hold on things, but not understood why, now I know it is to prevent the nose down, that is useful.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Just an FYI, I am not advocating a forced send out. I don't see the need.


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## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I feel like I'm just piling on here but I agree with much of what has been said. I also do not like the reward on the ground for the reasons already mentioned. I also proof the down away from the actual send away. The down is trial day only. And I too use a cue word. I am smack in the middle of forced retrieves but eventually might see what linking the retrieve to the send away does. I say 'might' because really his send away is fantastic and I don't want to mess it or the retrieves up, but I do know this can be a useful technique. In a trial the length is a football field so in training you do MORE than a football field. I've seen dogs doing send aways more than twice the length of a football field on a brand new field and let me tell you they never hesitated about which direction to run, they may as well have been running attached to a rope, and they were just as fast at the end as they were in the beginning. And of course do it in as many locations as you possibly can.

I use an orange bumper hanging from a garden flag stand. The toy is ALWAYS there. Always. And I teach that the word voraus means crazy intense, almost frantic drive through back tying and saying voraus not just once but over and over and over and over. In the early stages, while teasing I'm repeatedly saying voraus. As I sprint down the field to hang the toy I stop and tease and repeatedly say voraus. As I sprint back I'm still saying voraus and stopping to point at the toy, maintaining his drive state. Before releasing the dog I'm pumping him up and saying voraus. On the actual release there is some element of "force" as I correct him forward at the moment of the command. As the dog is running I'm repeatedly saying voraus. As the dog strikes the toy I say it again. As I fight with the dog after he returns I again am repeatedly saying voraus. I do this many, many times and extend the distance. Many think this is overkill (and a heck of a workout for the handler!) but the drive is in the word, not the toy. I want voraus to trigger a certain state of mind, not just a physical movement, before moving on to adding obedience or having the toy already out there so that he doesn't see me put it out there.

Other things I've done while progressing through the point that he does not see me put the toy up are to heel close enough so that the toy is visible, say voraus and pump him up, then heel away so that it's out of sight and then send him. I also continue to say voraus as he strikes the toy and as I fight him, and sporadically as he's running to it, as well as continue to correct him forward. And when sending from a distance where the toy is not visible I sometimes do not physically release him when I say voraus. I hold him back and pump him up, then release him. I did this every time when I first started sending him from a distance where the toy was not visible without first getting him close enough to see the toy.

And of course I'm open to using a more true force down the road.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

lhczth said:


> I know the send out can be taught with electric. I have seen it done. I would consider it a form of force.


Wish I had done it that way with the Rottweiler the other almost killed me and I was 20 years younger.
The way I have taught my dog now there's full points there every time and he's ether facing 90 degrees or facing me no sniffing, no looking around he's looking at me and it looks excellent!!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

jesusica said:


> I use an orange bumper hanging from a garden flag stand. The toy is ALWAYS there. Always. And I teach that the word voraus means crazy intense, almost frantic drive through back tying and saying voraus not just once but over and over and over and over. In the early stages, while teasing I'm repeatedly saying voraus. As I sprint down the field to hang the toy I stop and tease and repeatedly say voraus. As I sprint back I'm still saying voraus and stopping to point at the toy, maintaining his drive state. Before releasing the dog I'm pumping him up and saying voraus. On the actual release there is some element of "force" as I correct him forward at the moment of the command. As the dog is running I'm repeatedly saying voraus. As the dog strikes the toy I say it again. As I fight with the dog after he returns I again am repeatedly saying voraus. I do this many, many times and extend the distance. Many think this is overkill (and a heck of a workout for the handler!) but the drive is in the word, not the toy. I want voraus to trigger a certain state of mind, not just a physical movement, before moving on to adding obedience or having the toy already out there so that he doesn't see me put it out there.


With Diabla what motivates her the best is frustration. What I do is to frustrate her to the point she is about to explode, sometimes even lifting her from the ground charging her with my voice while I hug her tight. Other times I use the same frustration asking a beyond perfect heeling, corrections included, before releasing with the "voraus". Some thing I love of Diabla is that the further you put stress on her, the better her performance is.



> Other things I've done while progressing through the point that he does not see me put the toy up are to heel close enough so that the toy is visible, say voraus and pump him up, then heel away so that it's out of sight and then send him. I also continue to say voraus as he strikes the toy and as I fight him, and sporadically as he's running to it, as well as continue to correct him forward. And when sending from a distance where the toy is not visible I sometimes do not physically release him when I say voraus. I hold him back and pump him up, then release him. I did this every time when I first started sending him from a distance where the toy was not visible without first getting him close enough to see the toy.


I think distance is about the point I reached with Diabla, but never progressed to where she didn't see me put the toy, at least no with success.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Catu said:


> I have nothing against forced voraus


I thought you did. Interesting how things change.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Joker said:


> You need a good set of lungs and fast legs for a force send out


 That is right! Electric is for old folks.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Joker said:


> Wish I had done it that way with the Rottweiler the other almost killed me and I was 20 years younger.
> The way I have taught my dog now there's full points there every time and he's ether facing 90 degrees or facing me no sniffing, no looking around he's looking at me and it looks excellent!!


Video to share?


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Granted, my experience is limited, but I have never seen a dog that did not LOVE to run like a maniac on the send out when trained with a toy/tug reward at the end of the field. Even my medium drive, easily distracted mutt would do an awesome, completely focused run for the send out, trained with nothing but a send out pole and a tug - it was her most favorite exercise after the retrieve over the A-frame. Why need to use force or other techniques? 

I'm not questioning or challenging those who train this way, I'm curious how it is done, and why. Why would a dog NOT do a send out so that it needs to be forced?


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

@ Lies,

I tend to write in absolutes to better express my point; of course, in dog training, there are no absolutes to cover every dog and technique of training. I perhaps should have written "in my experience [throwing the ball] tends to result in such a behavior". 
I must admit that I am rather impressed. You seem to have a general principle for training. Your "free-shaping" seems to be a principle which you understand, you know how to make the dog understand, and you are comfortable with. This is important. Many folks seem to tackle each exercise as a new problem without an overlying principle upon which the dog can build.


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Why would a dog NOT do a send out so that it needs to be forced?


Excellent question. This is from a thread on this board from'09 (one of my first). I believe you participated in this discussion. (In fact I know you did because I remember that you used the word "verve")

There are several common problems in this exercise. The first is the dog who requires extra commands to down, this is also the dog that will begin searching for the ball at the end of the field. The second is the dog that goes out a short distance then downs before the command is given. The third is the dog who goes out slowly, perhaps stops at some point, but in either case shows a lack of enthusiasm.
I believe that upon examination of each of these scenarios individually and collectively, we can begin to answer Lauri's question. 
Let's take a look at the first scenario, the dog who requires extra commands to down and perhaps searches at the end of the field. This is a dog that almost surely has a motivational send-out, and a good one. He is certain that his ball is at the end of the field, this is the reason he will search when he gets to the end. Now why will he not down immediately? I believe the answer to that is two-fold. To begin with, to this dog the down equates the end of the fun; he is after something and enjoys chasing it. You might compare it to the difficulty one may have in calling a dog off from chasing a prey animal. Secondly, in a dog showing a strong, fast motivational send-away it is nearly certain that the trainer does very few downs in training. Why is that? Because if a trainer makes a great deal of pressure to make quick, reliable downs, the dog is less prone to run out fast.
This brings us to the second scenario, the dog that runs out a short distance and then downs without command. This is a motivationaly trained (for this exercise anyhow) dog who has recieved pressure to make the down command quick and reliable. He is much more concerned with the pressure of the down than he is with any reward he believes will be waiting for him at the end of the field. 
The third is the slow, or unenthusiatic dog. Now there are two likely reasons for this. Either this dog is concerned about the pressure from the down as well or he is not completly convinced that his ball is waiting at the end of the field. Either way produces the same picture. 
Now we can look at a dog that has a forced go-out. Let us see how he compares to the dog in scenario 1. A dog with a forced go-out is more likely to down immediately for several reasons. First the dog does not equate the down with an end to the fun, but rather as an end to pressure and stress. Secondly, the forced dog has no dillusions of finding a ball at the end, thus he will not continue to run/search for something that he knows is not there. Third, a forced go-out allows a trainer to practice a down at the end of the exercise on a regular basis as the trainer is not relying solely on the dog wanting to run out quickly, the dog knows he must run out quickly. 
Now we can compare the forced dog to the dog in the second scenario, the one that downs prematurely because he is concerned with pressure from the down command. With a forced dog the down represents the end of stress, thus he is much more concerned with running out than he is with what will happen at the end of the field. After all, there are only two possibilities at the end of the field, either he is downed, and the pressure ends or there is a ball, and the pressure ends. 
And the final scenario, the dog that shows a lack of speed and enthusiasm. If the lack of speed is due to pressure from the down then the same principles as scenario 2 apply, the down represents the end of stress, not the beginning. If the lack of speed is caused by the dog not believing that the ball is at the end of the field, then we can expect the forced dog not to have this problem either, as he is not running to the ball, but rather away from his handler who certainly is there and still has two feet!


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Ha! I vaguely remember that discussion now! I don't remember using the word "verve", and I am quite surprised that it had that much of an impact - 

I can see how the motivational send out brings in some issues with the dog searching for the ball at the end of the field - I actually DID have that issue with Keeta in her OB1 - but I consider it to be my fault due to how I always trained, my lack of experience, and making certain false assumptions of how she will behave come trial day vs. normal training days. In my way of thinking, it is not the motivational send out per se that caused the issues, but how I failed to set my dog up for success due to a lack of foresight and understanding. With that experience under my belt, I can avoid my mistakes of the past, and be better prepared to now train for a more correct send out while still using motivational methods. The scenario of a possible motivational send out picture, is just that - a possible outcome and final product - not a guaranteed problem based on the training method. Another possible outcome is a perfect send out with a perfect down. As a person gains more experienced, the better outcome is more likely. 

But I'm still trying to figure out how a dog is trained using force for the send out? My thinking is "What the tarnations do one has to do to their dog to make it want to run away from the handler like that, as opposed to training it to run to something, which happens to be in a straight line far far ahead."


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Zahnburg said:


> The send-away.....Round 2.


Ah, yes, I remember that discussion now: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/schutzhund-training/123552-forced-go-out.html

Never did get a complete idea of exactly how the "forced send out" that was under discussion was being utilized/implemented in training. That has always actually bugged me  LOL.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Zahnburg, I said I'm not against you using whatever you want, because I remembered all that long thread with you defending the forced voraus and I didn't want this thread being hijacked with to do or not to do forced send aways. Too late, I see.

I appreciate your elaborated input, and the ones of others people too, on how to proof the exercise. Thanks, really.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Good post Art, very informative for those that have never taught a send out!!


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## Zahnburg (Nov 13, 2009)

Catu,

I did not intend to move this thread in that direction. I hope that you find the advice I gave helpful.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Zahnburg said:


> @ Lies,
> 
> I tend to write in absolutes to better express my point; of course, in dog training, there are no absolutes to cover every dog and technique of training. I perhaps should have written "in my experience [throwing the ball] tends to result in such a behavior".
> I must admit that I am rather impressed. You seem to have a general principle for training. Your "free-shaping" seems to be a principle which you understand, you know how to make the dog understand, and you are comfortable with. This is important. Many folks seem to tackle each exercise as a new problem without an overlying principle upon which the dog can build.


I understand and honestly agree with pretty much all you say even if it may not be exactly how I am training my dog. My current dog that I am training for SchH is sort of my "experiment", if you will. He's basically a nice club level dog that I do a lot of other dog sports with so I play around with a lot of training styles in different venues. I like to experiment with freeshaping not because I am one of those "purely positive" trainers (quite the opposite, I'm usually the one teaching others how to give a two-handed correction when the dog is just being nagged by the handler), but because I think freeshaping makes me a better trainer overall because it forces you to break down every behavior and develop and absolutely clear line of communication to the dog. There is no room for error with timing otherwise you end up with a dog that does exactly what you don't want - a dog pausing and looking back on the send out, a dog that is slow and/or chewy on retrieves, etc. I like to train the dog to understand the behavior pure and simple. So, when I say "voraus" I don't want the dog running to a lure, or running away from me because of conflict in the preceding exercise. I want "voraus" to mean plain and simple "run fast away from handler in a straight line until told otherwise". But like you that is black and white. I have used a toy on a plant hanger at the end of the field and I have played around with pairing various exercises that make sense. My main reason for trying to involve freeshaping whenever I can is because I also do agility with all of my dogs, and a dog that is really handler dependent is a lot of extra work in agility. Handler dependent does not mean the dog is weak or stupid or anything like that, but it just means a dog that is so used to being lured or physically shown what to do, it can't really think and run a course at the same time or needs so much handling that it is exhausting for the handler. Freeshaping is like me learning cursive as a kid, I learned it once and can do it if I have to but it is slow and ugly compared to someone who learned cursive and has written using cursive on a fairly regularly basis ever since.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

Northern GSDs said:


> Video to share?


That is a very sore spot you bring up no I do not I'm sorry to say.
And if your asking for video of me chasing the **** Rottweiler down the field thank god no, living through that once enough reliving it on video isn't necessary.
And yes if I were to use a force again there will be electric


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Northern GSDs*
> _Video to share?_
> 
> ...


No no no! I did not mean that in THAT way! LOL. Just that I've watched your regionals tracking & one of your protection vids with Jett and always love watching a well done send out (or any other nice elements from a routine) and I enjoyed the Jett vids so was hoping you had one of your send out with him. Now that I look at it, I admit the way I asked looked pretty snotty - not meant that way at all 

And Catu, I am sorry if you feel my post hijacked the thread - I did not mean to so I apologize.


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## Joker (Sep 15, 2006)

Northern GSDs said:


> No no no! I did not mean that in THAT way! LOL. Just that I've watched your regionals tracking & one of your protection vids with Jett and always love watching a well done send out (or any other nice elements from a routine) and I enjoyed the Jett vids so was hoping you had one of your send out with him. Now that I look at it, I admit the way I asked looked pretty snotty - not meant that way at all
> 
> And Catu, I am sorry if you feel my post hijacked the thread - I did not mean to so I apologize.


No then you misunderstood me the sore spot I have is I have no video of obedience at trial I do have video of Jetts Schutzhund III and cant find it.
Most of my trialing is on the road so I hate bothering people I dont know well to tape for me so at the regional all my gear just sat under the picnic table.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Joker said:


> No then you misunderstood me the sore spot I have is I have no video of obedience at trial I do have video of Jetts Schutzhund III and cant find it.
> Most of my trialing is on the road so I hate bothering people I dont know well to tape for me so at the regional all my gear just sat under the picnic table.


That sucks . Our club keeps talking about bringing someone in to take video during trials. I always bring my video camera but it usually ends up staying in my bag too. 

Glad to hear I took your response the wrong way though


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Northern GSDs said:


> And Catu, I am sorry if you feel my post hijacked the thread - I did not mean to so I apologize.


You should be ashamed... :nono:

I'm jocking :laugh:. I was afraid this could become another opininon contest on the forced voraus "before" getting advice, but since I actually received a lot of it, of great quality, I cannot complain but on the contrary. All threads have a life on their own and don't belong to the original poster.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

^^ I'll just self abuse myself a bit as my punishment :hammer: LOL



> I used what is described in "Schutzhund Obedience, Training in Drive" to teach the _voraus_ and teaching to run behind the recall point has helped (and has not backfired as some predicted) but I still can't trust the dog to run forward without see the reward being put ahead.
> 
> I know I'm missing a lot of steps to reach the goal and I would like to know what you use.


Now that I think about it, I don't think anyone posted this link - I can't recall how the send out was explained in the book you mentioned (I had it but ended up selling it) but perhaps the video clip will help in terms of a few extra steps in between the sending of the dog when it has seen the reward/target placed and sending the dog when it has not seen the reward placed. Essentially, it involved doing lots of repetitions of sending the dog when it sees the placement of the reward and then sending it repeatedly again whereby you have an assistant placing the reward at the mark point. I loosely followed a similar technique and through lots of repetition it led to a nice send out (mind you I also "proofed" it by going to many different places as others have mentioned (parking lots, soccer/football fields etc).

Anyhow, here's the link. Distance can be added gradually as the dog gains confidence/understanding and is showing a strong comittment to going out with the shorter distances. 





 
Good luck and keep us posted with your progress!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Thanks!! This is very much what I was looking for, greatly explained and with a voice clear and slow enough for me to understand it!! :wub:


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## 1baadk9 (Mar 7, 2010)

I prefer Michael Ellis' method of teaching the send away. The reward is never at the end of the field. The reward, be it food or toy, always comes from the handler. Therefore, the dogs goal is to get to his "place" as fast as he can in order to obtain the reward. I've had great results so far and adding the platz created no problems. The faster the platz, the faster she gets her release command and I throw the toy to her.


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## Northern GSDs (Oct 30, 2008)

Ellis indeed does seem to have a nice method for this. A member of our club is primarily using Ellis' methods for OB so I am looking forward to seeing the results on this for the send out in particular. 

I think if I was starting new, I might strongly consider more use of touch pads in training - something that Ellis does for many of the OB elements (jumps/send out etc)


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