# OKAY, all you SchH Snobs!



## Konotashi

(And I say that lovingly/joking. Kind of).

We used to have our flyball practices at 9 am every Sunday. Until the ScH snobs decided they didn't want us using it. 
They started getting there at 8:30 so we had to find another park to practice at.
This wouldn't bother me, normally (because it WAS their usual park before us), but when they found out we were using it, they started coming for training earlier so we had to relocate.
Not to mention, they're just flat-out rude.

If we show up while they're setting up, they will shoot us dirty looks the whole time. (We would stay there to wait for everyone to get there so we could all collaborate to find another park).

When I was asking my breeder about clubs around here (because when I get my GSD, I REALLY do want to do SchH). She told me she wouldn't recommend any of the SchH clubs out here. (She does PSA).

I've also heard that (in general), they don't like newbies, they don't like people who don't intend on trialing/titling their dogs, they don't care for non-breeders, I've heard some clubs use less-than-ethical training methods to get the dogs titled quicker....
(Mind you, this is all what I've HEARD).

What the heck, guys? I wonder how many others are scared away from trying out the sport just from heresay.... 
I'm not going to decide if I'll do it or not based on rumors, but I will admit - I'm quite intimidated to go out and see clubs train and talk to them.

(This pertains to the local clubs).


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## onyx'girl

Heresay is just that...and I always consider the source. I wouldn't make any judgements from others,unless they were actually involved in the particular club(and even then, not sure I'd listen, rather see for myself!)
There is truth in some clubs wanting competitors to be committed....too much time can be wasted when someone is using up valuable club time and not following through on the sports requirements. But newbies are usually welcome if the club can give them the time and be fair to everyone. If there are no newb's the sport will die.
As far as not wanting anyone but breeders in the club? Never see that around my area. 
Less than ethical methods is subjective....what one person views as compulsion another sees as the way to keep their dog in line because some of the dogs need a bit of pressure to learn control.

Too bad that group acted that way, not a great representation for the sport for sure. I probably would have gone over and introduced myself(especially if I was interested in IPO for the future). 

Many times people setting up are just going about their business with intensity, and they may look like they are PO'd but in reality just stressed because of time constraints.


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## mego

It's probably just that club, some clubs do it differently than others. If there are other clubs in the area shoot them an email and see how open they are to newcomers. 

We have a 9 week old puppy and I emailed one in my area to ask if she could come observe and they were really excited about it! They didn't even ask what breed she was or if I wanted to be serious about it, so nice groups are out there somewhere.

Sounds like you just have a group of jerks in your area. 

Good luck, I would try not to let one group's treatment of you guys sour your experience, but I would totally be feeling the same way.


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## Blitzkrieg1

My club welcomes all breeds and all types noobs or experienced people. Newbies are the future of the sport so turning them away is less then smart.


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## Konotashi

I'm definitely not going to make a decision based on rumors and heresay, but my 'source' (we'll call her) has trained with the club that takes the park.

And it's not just them setting up and shooting us dirty looks - several of our teammates have attempted conversation, but they wouldn't even acknowledge their existence. 

It just kinda sucks, because even though it is heresay, it still makes it more intimidating and is a put-off. Kills the excitement of wanting to try out the sport....


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## llombardo

They weren't inviting by me either. I got there early and they ignored me for a long time. They talked to me enough to tell me that my dog didn't look like she would do well in the sport..blah blah blah. So I sat there for about 3 hours listening to their conversations and waiting my turn. Well, they were surprised at my dog and what she was able to do. I was invited to come back and continue but I decided against it. I think deep down that I wanted to prove my dog could do it, but as a group, they weren't what I was looking for. So on to agility we went and we are happy with that set of people.


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## Wolfgeist

I think that's an isolated issue with that specific club. Every club I have trained with has been wonderful.


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## Konotashi

Wild Wolf said:


> I think that's an isolated issue with that specific club. Every club I have trained with has been wonderful.


I've heard bad things about several clubs around here.... The park snots are the first ones I've actually had any sort of contact with. 
I'm hoping all the rumors I've heard about the other clubs are just that - rumors.


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## x11

Wild Wolf said:


> *I think that's an isolated issue with that specific club. *Every club I have trained with has been wonderful.


i doubt it - a version of that same experience has occured and been told more times just on the various forums alone let alone people that don't post for it to be more than an isolated issue.

my one club split into three clubs all a stones throw from each other and all the the TD's are commercial breeders, i was getting along fine as a volunteer without a dog then i arrived one day with a new pup (*not* from any of the TD's) ready to play and i kept getting told to just wait my turn over on the side of the field over and over untill i get sick of waiting and didn't go back. 

the three clubs each with barely enough members to be called a club occupy the precious parks/training grounds that are very rare in the middle of the city and all the other dog owners who outnumber schuts people 100 to 1 do not get a space - totally selfish and the issue is not going unnoticed by local authorities that have to justify their allocations of use of public land.


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## onyx'girl

Sometimes club members aren't real warm with visitors. I think it is the fact that they are testing their mettle or something. I've been to more than a few where people are not outgoing or friendly. Unless they know you or your dog or your dogs breeder, you are invisible. But going back again and again will bring some respect. Shows you aren't deterred by the cold shoulder! 
I've always made it a point to be accomodating to visitors wherever I train because I know the feeling going in alone without knowing anyone.


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## cliffson1

Sigh....really sad!


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## doggiedad

never be intimidated by anything in life. it's all there
for your entertainment.



Konotashi said:


> I'm not going to decide if I'll do it or not based on rumors, but I will admit
> 
> ->>>>> I'm quite intimidated to go out and see clubs train and talk to them.<<<<<<
> 
> (This pertains to the local clubs).


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## Carriesue

This is the very reason I've decided not to try for this sport... I can't deal with uppity people especially when he comes to a DOG SPORT. I'm also a really timid person with people, I don't think I have what it takes to handle people being jerk holes because they think they're better than me. PLUS I have a German show/working line cross... I love my dog with every fiber of my being. I could handle him having faults but I would be damned to have someone insulting my dog because he is not some full working line sable. I wouldn't be able to handle my anger towards them and would probably get kicked out. 

I'm sure there are some AWESOME clubs out there, not saying they are all like that. I just don't think it's a sport for me.


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## doggiedad

start thinking you're better than them and your dog
is better than theirs. 



Carriesue said:


> I don't think I have what it takes to handle people being jerk holes because they think they're better than me.


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## x11

jerk holes????


sumthin my little bro would say.


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## Capone22

Try other groups. I experienced a little of that until I found my club I'm in now. They were all very nice from day one  and since I can be reserved they make me get up and in the convos to learn. 


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## GsdLoverr729

x11 said:


> jerk holes????
> 
> 
> sumthin my little bro would say.


It's more acceptable on a public forum than other names


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## Carriesue

x11 said:


> jerk holes????
> 
> 
> sumthin my little bro would say.


LOL I was trying to think of something that wouldn't get me banned. 

I guess it was a little over the top, I just wish people could be nicer and more accepting of others. Pipe dream I know.


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## onyx'girl

> I can't deal with *uppity people* especially when he comes to a DOG SPORT. I'm also a really timid person with people, I don't think I have what it takes to handle people being *jerk holes* because *they think they're better* than me. PLUS I have a German show/working line cross... I love my dog with every fiber of my being. I could handle him having faults but I would be damned to have *someone insulting my dog because he is not some full working line sable*.
> I wouldn't be able to handle my anger towards them and would probably get kicked out


I am not one to start a spitting match, but really CarrieSue, your post sounds extremely judgemental. If your opinion is based on a couple people in one club, then whatever, but don't judge the DOG SPORT crowd from one experience.


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## x11

i like the sentiments that phrase conjures up, i will incorporate it into my repetoire with yr permission, is it original, like did you make it up yrself??

thanks for giving me a new word that says so much, so accurately without actually being blatantly offensive.

cool


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## x11

onyx girl - unfortunately none of us get to meet every people so when one's repeated experience is negative it only follows that folks generalise, why don't the "holier than thou sports people" acknowledge the problems they create instead of just saying its all the newbs problem - wouldn't that be something novel, some actual leadership instead of frantic, jealous, guardy people that the newbs are most likely meet before they ever get near the truly great ones in the sport.

same story, same sport.


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## mego

onyx'girl said:


> I am not one to start a spitting match, but really CarrieSue, your post sounds extremely judgemental. If your opinion is based on a couple people in one club, then whatever, *but don't judge the DOG SPORT crowd from one experience.*


The club near me doesn't even mind what breed participates, let alone what line of gsd... I agree, it's not really a good idea to judge everyone in the sport all at once .


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## GatorDog

x11 said:


> onyx girl - unfortunately none of us get to meet every people so when one's repeated experience is negative it only follows that folks generalise, why don't the "holier than thou sports people" acknowledge the problems they create instead of just saying its all the newbs problem - wouldn't that be something novel, some actual leadership instead of frantic, jealous, guardy people that the newbs are most likely meet before they ever get near the truly great ones in the sport.
> 
> same story, same sport.


I don't even understand what you're trying to get across in this post...There are plenty of "dog sport people" without these "holier than thou" attitudes you are referring to, but if you stop looking for a club of people where you would fit, then you aren't going to find them. 

Honestly, I find the fact that you referred to us "sports people" as frantic, jealous, and guardy pretty offensive. But what would I know..


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## x11

this threads got to hot for me


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## elisabeth_00117

I have been to several clubs in my area (probably at least 5 or 6 now) and only 1 club made me feel not welcomed - and it was the oldest club out of them all!). I think you should at least give them a try and make your own conclusions. 

If not, find another club.


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## Shade

I think this thread started on a bad note and it's just getting worse


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## onyx'girl

x11 said:


> onyx girl - unfortunately none of us get to meet every people so when one's repeated experience is negative it only follows that folks generalise, why don't the "holier than thou sports people" acknowledge the problems they create instead of just saying its all the newbs problem - wouldn't that be something novel, some actual leadership instead of frantic, jealous, guardy people that the newbs are most likely meet before they ever get near the truly great ones in the sport.
> 
> same story, same sport.


I guess I haven't been to enough clubs to see the holier than thou's...around my area there have been splits in clubs, and many are clustered in one area(German settlers!) but most are very welcoming and will utilize each other's fields so they can train in different locations now and then. They also will trial on other clubs fields as necessary...its all good!
I think when you go to a pay to play type club, there may be some upity(so it seems) people, because the flow of different teams is ongoing and the comraderie of a tight knit group isn't revealed. Because I've bopped around so much, I could make assumptions based on one visit, but one visit tells me nothing really. Just as the club members can't assess me on one visit. Most people are focused on their training session, not on how to make every one feel warm and fuzzy when they visit. 
My first club had a 'seargent in arms' that was supposed to be the warm/fuzzy person and he did his job well! He was also the guy that had to deal with the ones who weren't being supportive in the club. But at least the club had a designated person for this. The TD's are too busy and helpers as well...who else is there to greet the newbies? The other newbs?


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## gaia_bear

As a society, we are too quick to make judgements based on what others have experienced. Every individual will have a different experience then the other, if you go into a situation with a preconceived notion that they are "uppity snobs" you will most likely be on the lookout for these behaviors. 

Put the heresay out of your mind and go see for yourself.

I was so intimated to go to my first training session with my club because of some of the experiences I had read on here, I don't have a working dog heck she doesn't even have a pedigree but they asked me after obedience class one night if I wanted to come train. Had I went into my first session with a clouded judgement, I would have really missed out. Everything is what you make of it, even the most guarded person will let their barriers down once you've shown you're willing to put 110% of yourself into what you're doing. I think that's the problem with a lot of these "snobby" clubs someone calls wants to train, thinks the sport is cool, doesn't understand the time and commitment placed into training a dog. Once they realize how much work it is, they show up every so often and use resources that could be put to better use by someone who is serious. Just my opinion.


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## la_nausee

Thanks OP, the thread almost made me chuckle. You can, certainly, replace the "SchH" in "SchH snobs" with almost anything in life.

For any schutzhund club that is worth anything. (i.e. in the case of members titling dogs as main priority), I find surviving members to have all or some of the following characteristics:

- Recognizes self-ignorance
- Recognizes that there are people who are much better
- Seeks knowledge and understanding
- Seeks improvement
- Competitive

Unfortunately, most that quit or lose interest, seem to lack those qualities. Now this isn't the case for all clubs. There are some clubs that lose sight of a schutzhund club's purpose; their existence is evident by the lack of progress for its members. "Training" days mostly consisting of sitting down to gossip about this thing or that thing, or things unrelated, while feeling content for having done some kind of thing that resembles training, is just enough for those kinds to identify themselves as a "schutzhund club." Those kinds might (or might not) be better for the faint of heart.


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## onyx'girl

I just like to talk dogs....


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## Carriesue

I'm sorry, you're right... I'm not trying to judge the sport as a whole. It's mainly my fears of what it COULD be. I would love to be involved in something with my dog. What I was trying to say and got across rather poorly is I don't think I could handle that type of environment, if people were cold to me it would hurt my feelings and I would feel like I wasn't wanted there and it would probably affect my performance. It would probably also hinder me in bothering to try other clubs. So that's my reasoning why I don't think it's the right sport for me.

But I'm sorry if I offended anyone and I'm not trying to bash the sport. I just got frustrated with wanting to do something with my dog but feeling like I don't fit anywhere, next time I'll wait until I cool down before I post something.  I try to never post in a negative way on this forum, I don't want to contribute to that so again I apologize.


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## onyx'girl

No worries.... I guess you'd be considered higher in defense temperament wise? LOL


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## mandiah89

I have not had this problem... The one and only club near me (which is an hour away) and I have been going to this club for 3 weeks now... They are very welcoming, and supportive.


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## robk

I think some of you are interpreting what you perceive to be a cold shoulder the wrong way. I think that many people are very serious and dedicate a lot of time to training and working their dogs towards their goals and at training its all business. I see how it could be off putting to the new comers but think about the people that are there training week end and week out plus are training on their own every day. When they go to the club to train many times they are there to work through problems that they cannot fix on their own and are kind of in the "zone" mentally.


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## Liesje

I've done a few flyball drills at my SchH club on SchH equipment. Sometimes I will do a few turn drills off the bottom of the A-frame if it's set really steep and no one else is working on retrieves. We train on private land and no one else does flyball or cares whether I do it or not (or at least if they care they keep their mouth shut).


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## KJenkins

robk said:


> I think some of you are interpreting what you perceive to be a cold shoulder the wrong way. I think that many people are very serious and dedicate a lot of time to training and working their dogs towards their goals and at training its all business. I see how it could be off putting to the new comers but think about the people that are there training week end and week out plus are training on their own every day. When they go to the club to train many times they are there to work through problems that they cannot fix on their own and are kind of in the "zone" mentally.


Gotta agree with this one. I go to club to work my dog. I save the chit chat for after training.

I cannot count the number of times through the years new folks come and once they figure out how much work is involved they ride off into the sunset. After a while it gets very old so I'm not going to apologize if people aren't automatically on my Xmas card list after the first time they visit.


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## onyx'girl

& don't go to a trial expecting friendliness! Thats when stress levels are higher and people aren't in their right frame of mind.


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## Konotashi

Before too long, I'll visit all of the local clubs and watch them train. I don't care when people are focused and in the zone (obviously - they need to concentrate on what they're doing).
It bothers me when they're rude and hateful. 

Hopefully, when I go to visit other clubs, I can come back and share positive experiences.

In defense of dog sports (and anything, really) there's the good and the bad.
In flyball, there's snobby, hateful, cold people too. I've seen someone yank their staffie up by the collar, punch him in the head and scream bloody murder at him for going around jumps at a DEMO. Someone I was sitting next to in the crowd said something along the lines of how abusive dog sports are.... I looked at him and told him that person has no business being in flyball, I'm on another team, he loves it, etc. I made it clear I was also disgusted and horrified at her behavior.
There's bad apples in everything.

I just hope there's one club in the area I can mesh with.

ETA:
Being in a dog sport, I can completely understand that they're focused on the task at hand. Flyball tournaments can be chaotic, stressful, and exhausting, but I always have a BLAST. I want to be able to experience that same excitement if/when I pursue SchH.
I like dog sports, not to prove that my dog is awesome (because I already know that), not to prove anything to anyone... I do it to have FUN with my dog. To strengthen our bond. To give him something HE loves to do, besides fetch. To channel that drive and energy into something great.

I want to be competitive, but I want to have fun doing it and my dog have even more fun.


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## harmony

I took the post all in good fun lol. I don't think the red carpet is rolled out in any dog sport but, I never went for the people just the dog. Most new people work their dogs last, just like when you start a job you don't start out as the CEO but work from the bottom up. If you are really serious about working a dog you can and will  and yoiu will meet some really great people and will learn the ones to stay away from.


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## lhczth

I guess I have been very lucky. While I have met some not so pleasant people in my 21 years in SchH I have found most of those to be the people that have done nothing. I have met people like that, though, in many of the dogs sport areas (30 years total) and even more so in the horse show world (30 years). The majority of the people I have trained with and the clubs I have trained with have treated me and my dogs very well. Funny, in all these years not a single person has ever tried to sell me a dog. 

My club does its best to be welcoming to all visitors and new people interested in SchH no matter the breed or type of dog (well, other than dogs that are totally unsuitable). Most never come back because they see the length of the day and realize there is no way they could dedicate that kind of time. Or they would rather pay to play, show up for their time and leave. 

I know there are groups out there that are not so good. I have seen the clubs where everyone owns dogs from the TD and if they don't they soon will (because the dog they currently have isn't any good). I just haven't found them to be much of a problem because I never allowed them to be (and I was very shy when I started).


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## lhczth

Harmony, that is a very good point. I probably have not found as many problems as others because, while I enjoy the social aspect of clubs, I do this because I love working these dogs.


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## elisabeth_00117

> I just haven't found them to be much of a problem because I never allowed them to be


I think this is the most important message of all... 

I totally live by this.


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## zivagirl

I live in Missouri and was approached by someone who does ScH training. I have her card and want to keep in touch given her offer for morning walks with her and her GSD. She told me that ANY dog is welcome in her club. 

My thoughts may change on the matter, but for now, I have no interest in ScH. *I* am not disciplined enough. Like I said tough...I am not ruling it out.


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## mycobraracr

Konotashi said:


> Before too long, I'll visit all of the local clubs and watch them train. I don't care when people are focused and in the zone (obviously - they need to concentrate on what they're doing).
> It bothers me when they're rude and hateful.
> 
> Hopefully, when I go to visit other clubs, I can come back and share positive experiences.
> 
> In defense of dog sports (and anything, really) there's the good and the bad.
> In flyball, there's snobby, hateful, cold people too. I've seen someone yank their staffie up by the collar, punch him in the head and scream bloody murder at him for going around jumps at a DEMO. Someone I was sitting next to in the crowd said something along the lines of how abusive dog sports are.... I looked at him and told him that person has no business being in flyball, I'm on another team, he loves it, etc. I made it clear I was also disgusted and horrified at her behavior.
> There's bad apples in everything.
> 
> I just hope there's one club in the area I can mesh with.
> 
> ETA:
> Being in a dog sport, I can completely understand that they're focused on the task at hand. Flyball tournaments can be chaotic, stressful, and exhausting, but I always have a BLAST. I want to be able to experience that same excitement if/when I pursue SchH.
> I like dog sports, not to prove that my dog is awesome (because I already know that), not to prove anything to anyone... I do it to have FUN with my dog. To strengthen our bond. To give him something HE loves to do, besides fetch. To channel that drive and energy into something great.
> 
> I want to be competitive, but I want to have fun doing it and my dog have even more fun.


Are you in the Phoenix area? I visited a club there back in May or June I believe. They were very nice and I had a great time. I think for me it helped that I'm a helper and thiers happend to be sick that day. So I got lots of extra work. It was great for me as I got to learn from a Judge they have in there group and work dogs I hadn't seen before. At the end of the day I asked their opinion of my dog. I got what I asked for. Some of you may take it as an insult but it was an opinion and observation of what that particular person saw in the dog. I work my dog hard and for many hours a week so it's no supprise to hear what people tell me. So if you can't take the truth about your dog then maybe it isn't the place for you. 

When people would visit my schH club I really don't have time to talk to them. I have work to do and that's what I'm doing. If they ask questions and get involved then that helps but I'm not going to go out of my way to talk to them. We have lots of people come out once. Then we never see them again. The more interested they are the more people will talk to them. 

I lost my train of thought so I'm going to end here haha


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## Konotashi

I think if someone can't take an experienced third party's opinion on their dog, then they can't improve themselves OR the dog.

I'm about 45 minutes to an hour away from Phoenix. Do you recall the name of the club?
I think I'd go to a few training days and just sit, watch, and take notes at a few different clubs. Then go and ask any questions I may have for 'em.


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## Smithie86

We have people of all abilities, sports (ipo, dock diving, agility) and breeds in the group.


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## Mrs.K

Come on people. Let's be real for a minute. 

EVERYTHING she heard IS TRUE! 

That is how SchH is. No need to give it a paint job. Are there clubs out there like that? YES!

And the behavior practiced does NOT surprise me the least bit!

Not every club is like that but there are enough out there that are just like that. If you have a great club, that is the exception! 

Also, using not ethical methods to get the dogs titled faster? OF COURSE! Whenever money and ego is involved that's when methods are being used that are not in the interest of the dog. 

It is SchH, afterall! 

Things are changing to the better but it is a slow, slow very slow change and everyone should be advocating for a clean sport and impeccable behavior! 

Why do you think people are trying to get the sport banned everywhere you look? It's because of people like that! So no need to avoid the truth. ONLY if we face the truth and change the attitude, things can change. And because people don't like visitors, and are that secretive we have the reputation that nothing has changed because only people that have something to hide wouldn't want visitors at their club! That is how people think.


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## Liesje

I've had the same experience as Lisa, but I'm in the same area. I have trained with and/or trialed at eight different SchH/protection sport clubs in the past five years. I've never once felt the club was being hostile to me. Because the group I originally trained with was not a sanctioned club, I've never had the luxury of trialing with my own club/home field and often have been the *only* person in the event that was not a member of the host club and usually those clubs happened to be the most welcoming towards me. A while back I signed up for an event at a club in a really rough area. As usual I was the only non club member participating. This was a club of big, burly guys that all owned Rottweilers and Cane Corso type dogs. Their TD has a reputation for being very militant in his training style (toward the people not the dogs). Here I was with my little GSD bitch 50lb soaking wet, the only female (human) entered in the event, the only visitor, only one year into dog ownership and training but these guys were some of the nicest and most welcoming I have ever met.

I find that clubs who are training on public land or land they don't own tend to be the more "secretive" type and it's usually not why people think. The group I used to train with did not own the land we trained on and were receiving a huge favor from a local police department. We also sometimes trained indoors at a facility also receiving a huge favor from that owner. As such we had to be much more strict about when we could allow visitors and who those visitors were. We could not just let people come and go as they pleased since we had to be responsible for who was there, not only for our own sakes but for the people who actually owned the facility (and the liability). I used to coordinate the visitors and let me tell you for every 20 people that contacted me we had maybe one ever show up. We allowed visitors once a month and always gave them directions and made it very clear when/where to show up and almost all of them never did. Our priority was our members first so we could not be distracted by a revolving door of people coming and going as they pleased with no real commitment to the club or the sport. Most of the clubs I have visited or trained with have been extremely tolerant of these types of people, moreso than I am!


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## Whiteshepherds

Mrs.K said:


> Why do you think people are trying to get the sport banned everywhere you look? It's because of people like that! So no need to avoid the truth. ONLY if we face the truth and change the attitude, things can change. And because people don't like visitors, and are that secretive we have the reputation that nothing has changed because only people that have something to hide wouldn't want visitors at their club! That is how people think.


Are you finding this to be true in the US or are you talking about Germany?


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> I've had the same experience as Lisa, but I'm in the same area. I have trained with and/or trialed at eight different SchH/protection sport clubs in the past five years. I've never once felt the club was being hostile to me. Because the group I originally trained with was not a sanctioned club, I've never had the luxury of trialing with my own club/home field and often have been the *only* person in the event that was not a member of the host club and usually those clubs happened to be the most welcoming towards me. A while back I signed up for an event at a club in a really rough area. As usual I was the only non club member participating. This was a club of big, burly guys that all owned Rottweilers and Cane Corso type dogs. Their TD has a reputation for being very militant in his training style (toward the people not the dogs). Here I was with my little GSD bitch 50lb soaking wet, the only female (human) entered in the event, the only visitor, only one year into dog ownership and training but these guys were some of the nicest and most welcoming I have ever met.
> 
> I find that clubs who are training on public land or land they don't own tend to be the more "secretive" type and it's usually not why people think. The group I used to train with did not own the land we trained on and were receiving a huge favor from a local police department. We also sometimes trained indoors at a facility also receiving a huge favor from that owner. As such we had to be much more strict about when we could allow visitors and who those visitors were. We could not just let people come and go as they pleased since we had to be responsible for who was there, not only for our own sakes but for the people who actually owned the facility (and the liability). I used to coordinate the visitors and let me tell you for every 20 people that contacted me we had maybe one ever show up. We allowed visitors once a month and always gave them directions and made it very clear when/where to show up and almost all of them never did. Our priority was our members first so we could not be distracted by a revolving door of people coming and going as they pleased with no real commitment to the club or the sport. Most of the clubs I have visited or trained with have been extremely tolerant of these types of people, moreso than I am!



Lies, I think it makes a difference if you are already in the sport and if you aren't. 

One thing I have noticed in SchH is that the people here on the forum are an exception with being involved in so many venues. A lot of times, if you are doing RH or Flyball, Agility, Obedience... these people are smiled upon and not in a good way, especially by a lot of oldtimers who just don't know any better. 

If a dog isn't good enough for SchH... just sell him to do RH, that he'll be good enough for. They don't take anyone else serious but themselves. 

Also, what you perceive as friendly and outgoing may not be perceived as friendly and outgoing for an outstanding person that doesn't know the sport. 

The sport does demand a lot of discipline and that discipline may come across as rough and hostile. That is why outstanding people have such a big issue. Also, if SchH people do not take other venues serious. And the way I grew into it, offering Flyball on a SchH field, IS an exceptional thing and very open minded. I've never even seen anything else except for basic obedience lessons, maybe Agility or RH. 

Clubs change, but it is a slow change. Maybe Germany can actually learn something from the USA. And I mean that.


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## Mrs.K

Whiteshepherds said:


> Are you finding this to be true in the US or are you talking about Germany?


Everywhere in the world. However, the US might actually be ahead of Germany in being outgoing and allowing different type of sports at their clubs. I've made mixed experiences. One club was very elite like and I didn't feel very comfortable. Another one was VERY outgoing but just too far away for me. Austin Schutzhund Club was super welcoming and outgoing. The Canada club is just plain awesome outgoing. 

One club was very hostile towards newcomers, even when you already were involved with the sport. Another one, I've never even heard back from... another one wouldn't allow any visitors at all for as long as they didn't have any openings... and that I do perceive as rude and elitist. 

The private training group I am in is very disciplined yet super outgoing and welcoming. 

The AKC Club on the other hand I do not wish to be a member of any longer. Just not my cup of tea. 

However, in every club so far, while there is a no drama policy, there is drama. It just comes with the Sport. 

Also, the most drama and hostility I experienced in SAR.


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## onyx'girl

> I find that clubs who are training on public land or land they don't own tend to be the more "secretive" type and it's usually not why people think. The group I used to train with did not own the land we trained on and were receiving a huge favor from a local police department


When training on public land there is no control over who visits/spectates. We were right along railroad tracks and the trains would sometimes stop traffic for 10 minutes or longer. Our training was the entertainment for the people waiting for the tracks to clear.
And we did have to be aware of our training during that time, especially if we were doing protection. At least being on police property kept many away, they thought it was the LEO K9's working.


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> *When training on public land there is no control over who visits/spectates.* We were right along railroad tracks and the trains would sometimes stop traffic for 10 minutes or longer. Our training was the entertainment for the people waiting for the tracks to clear.
> And we did have to be aware of our training during that time, especially if we were doing protection. At least being on police property kept many away, they thought it was the LEO K9's working.



Ditto, and when someone is telling a spectator that they cannot watch something while it's been done in the public on public land, that is perceived as downright rude because you are not the owner and shouldn't be out there training in the public if you do not want the public to watch. Throwing dirty looks doesn't help either. 

And that is where the perceived hostility is coming from.


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## GatorDog

I have trained with at least 5 different groups of people in the last 4 years and have never experienced any hostility. I have trialed outside of my own club twice and on my home field twice. Away from my field, I experienced extremely friendly and helpful people, and the people who trialed at my home club had nothing but good things to say.

At our last trial, a visitor came to watch the protection phase. She also brought out her 5-month old puppy onto the trial grounds during the trial, although there were signs posted on the club website, facebook site, and the property grounds that dogs not competing were to be kept off of the trial grounds (we had a separate lot for non competitors). She called the sport "snobby" and the club "rude" and "elitist" because she was asked to remove her out of control dog from the fence line of the trial grounds. 

So I guess if you have thin skin like she apparently did, then yes, our club could be considered rude and nasty and elitist...but if thats really the case, then so be it.


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## Mrs.K

GatorDog said:


> I have trained with at least 5 different groups of people in the last 4 years and have never experienced any hostility. I have trialed outside of my own club twice and on my home field twice. Away from my field, I experienced extremely friendly and helpful people, and the people who trialed at my home club had nothing but good things to say.
> 
> At our last trial, a visitor came to watch the protection phase. She also brought out her 5-month old puppy onto the trial grounds during the trial, although there were signs posted on the club website, facebook site, and the property grounds that dogs not competing were to be kept off of the trial grounds (we had a separate lot for non competitors). She called the sport "snobby" and the club "rude" and "elitist" because she was asked to remove her out of control dog from the fence line of the trial grounds.
> 
> So I guess if you have thin skin like she apparently did, then yes, our club could be considered rude and nasty and elitist...but if thats really the case, then so be it.


Your club is the least elitist club I know. Super friendly and outgoing.


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## cliffson1

Dog sport and especially the ones with bite work requires a lot of commitment and TIME. Four years ago we had a perfect SDA club. All ages of people, all types of dogs, ( from working imports to AKC and breed select champions...Dobes), and 10 to 12 out of 15 people show up every training session. If new people showed up they were more than welcome to stay and watch and as president, I would make it my business to greet them and introduce them. But our training day was from 10 am to 3 pm on Sat. and 6pm to 10pm on Wed. So if you visited between those hours, I would come to greet you, but then we have to go back to training. Now if you are there at end of session I and others were relaxed and would spend time. Often people came that only planned to watch for maybe an hour or two, really wanted someone to spend time with them and their dog and listen to the wonderful traits of their dog. Can do this after training, but not doing training....also members not on the field are STRONGLY encouraged to PAY attention to the training on the field, and not be engaged in non training conversations that can be distracting or maybe cause them to miss a teaching moment. So again, if the new person isn't willing to sit and watch, then they could perceive us as not being accommodating . Now if a person shows the commitment to stay, or makes arrangements to come early or after training to show their dog and discuss our club, we become optimistic. But it is difficult to show more than passing hospitality on training days during training hours.


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## Liesje

Mrs.K said:


> Lies, I think it makes a difference if you are already in the sport and if you aren't.


I'm not sure what you mean by this? I've only been doing SchH for a few years and was not training in SchH or with a SchH club when I was trialing my first dog in obedience. I didn't know anyone and they didn't know me.


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## Mrs.K

cliffson1 said:


> Dog sport and especially the ones with bite work requires a lot of commitment and TIME. Four years ago we had a perfect SDA club. All ages of people, all types of dogs, ( from working imports to AKC and breed select champions...Dobes), and 10 to 12 out of 15 people show up every training session. If new people showed up they were more than welcome to stay and watch and as president, I would make it my business to greet them and introduce them. But our training day was from 10 am to 3 pm on Sat. and 6pm to 10pm on Wed. So if you visited between those hours, I would come to greet you, but then we have to go back to training. Now if you are there at end of session I and others were relaxed and would spend time. Often people came that only planned to watch for maybe an hour or two, really wanted someone to spend time with them and their dog and listen to the wonderful traits of their dog. Can do this after training, but not doing training....also members not on the field are STRONGLY encouraged to PAY attention to the training on the field, and not be engaged in non training conversations that can be distracting or maybe cause them to miss a teaching moment. So again, if the new person isn't willing to sit and watch, then they could perceive us as not being accommodating . Now if a person shows the commitment to stay, or makes arrangements to come early or after training to show their dog and discuss our club, we become optimistic. But it is difficult to show more than passing hospitality on training days during training hours.



This is very true. 

Think of how people see the sport. All they see is dogs going after a man in a sleeve. Have the dog wear an e-collar and do one whelp because he got zapped, than you are already "torturing" the dogs. 
Have the dog wear a prong collar and they see you do a correction without knowing what the dog got the correction for, you are "torturing" the dogs. 

Have the dog take a helper down, you are training a man-eater. 

It is all about perception and if no one is there to actually explain why this or that happens, while people are watching, than that is where the bad reputation is coming from. 

Also, then you have people that don't care if the public is watching and do the helicopter on a prong. Take out the cattle prod or boast about storied of how they corrected their dog or how rough and tough their dogs are and that they cannot walk off the field without at least one injury. 

SchH is a complicated sport. Not to us, but it is to the public. The lines between abuse and training are sometimes very slim and blurry. What we see as a correction is for many others abuse. 

Outside people don't know what we are training for. They don't know that this is sport and that we have some of the best well behaved dogs you can meet (of course there are always exceptions). All they see is that they are trained to bite people.


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## Liesje

I guess my experience has been that the public does not care about SchH and has no idea it even exists. Jason, Falon and I used to train at public parks (including bitework) and no one ever stopped to watch. One time my husband was in the blind for Jason's dog (my husband is not a helper but has done some basic helperwork so he can stand in a blind) and some guy made a comment about our "falcon". He saw a vulture in the sky and honestly though the sleeve was one of those gloves people wear to handle falcons!

I've seen some bad attitudes and poor sportsmanship but only from within the sport and usually from the same people and in pressure filled circumstances like a trial. I do not agree that the general public has a bad opinion of the sport and wants to ban it. None of my non-SchH friends even have any idea what SchH is or if I've told them, they do not care. A few of them think it's cool but not cool enough to want to watch or participate themselves.

If anyone has a bad opinion of the sport without being involved I think it tends to be other dog people that subscribe to more extreme training methods. Not extreme as in harsh, but extreme as in they will ONLY do things a certain way and anyone who does it any other way (or any combination of methods) is dumb or abusive or clueless. It's other dog fanciers that seem to be the enemy of SchH in the USA.


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## onyx'girl

Well, if someone in that park saw some whip/stick hits you'd probably be called out or called on if they were AR enthusiasts.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> I guess my experience has been that the public does not care about SchH and has no idea it even exists. Jason, Falon and I used to train at public parks (including bitework) and no one ever stopped to watch. One time my husband was in the blind for Jason's dog (my husband is not a helper but has done some basic helperwork so he can stand in a blind) and some guy made a comment about our "falcon". He saw a vulture in the sky and honestly though the sleeve was one of those gloves people wear to handle falcons!
> 
> I've seen some bad attitudes and poor sportsmanship but only from within the sport and usually from the same people and in pressure filled circumstances like a trial. I do not agree that the general public has a bad opinion of the sport and wants to ban it. None of my non-SchH friends even have any idea what SchH is or if I've told them, they do not care.


There is a media campaign going on in Germany to ban the sport. It was going on in Switzerland, Austria. From my undersstanding, Schutzhund is banned in the City of Vienna already. 

There is a lot of lobbying going on in Europe, against Schutzhund and people are trying to be active and change the sports public appearance because people have a wrong perception about the sport and most of the time there is truth to that perception. Because there IS abuse going on in the sport, there are hostile clubs out there and people are working on changing all that but the Unity is just not there as you can find it in other venues. People are arguing what public relation work actually is and should look like. 

They are talking about a scientific approach but the public doesn't care about a scientific approach to explain Schutzhund, all they care about is that they don't get bit by that big bad German Shepherd trained in bite work and how these animals behave in every day life. They don't want to read about all that scientific stuff. People are emotional and they become more and more emotional each day. 

So yeah, when Konotashi posted that entrance post, I was not surprised at all because it is the truth. Plain and simple truth. That is how people feel about the sport, rigged trials, abusive methods to get the dogs trialed faster, bought titles also called (written trials i.e. dog never trialed but still got the title and there actually is a case about that going on in Germany right now). 

That is why we are trying to change something and started the website "www.schutzhundesport.org" because we are trying to change that perception with the personal experience of schutzhund dog handlers. Because that channel, running the media campaign is extremely biased and will not stop until they succeeded in what they want, ban the sport!


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## holland

I really loved the Canadian clubs I visited -they took the time to make me feel welcome-and they seemed really close knit-it was an enjoyable experience-and the club members were experienced-also liked the last club I was in...but have been in clubs for quite a while that in this thread are described as friendly and outgoing and it was great when I did everything that they were saying but when I started (with their permission) to participate in another club it was a big problem-and people who I thought were my friends weren't. . I train AKC now and enjoy the people I train with-also enjoyed the last club I trained in But I am not really a club person...cause you are either one of the club or you're not ...


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## onyx'girl

Mrs.K said:


> There is a media campaign going on in Germany to ban the sport. It was going on in Switzerland, Austria. From my undersstanding, Schutzhund is banned in the City of Vienna already.
> 
> There is a lot of lobbying going on in Europe, against Schutzhund and people are trying to be active and change the sports public appearance because people have a wrong perception about the sport and most of the time there is truth to that perception. Because there IS abuse going on in the sport, there are hostile clubs out there and people are working on changing all that but the Unity is just not there as you can find it in other venues. People are arguing what public relation work actually is and should look like.
> 
> They are talking about a scientific approach but the public doesn't care about a scientific approach to explain Schutzhund, all they care about is that they don't get bit by that big bad German Shepherd trained in bite work and how these animals behave in every day life. They don't want to read about all that scientific stuff. People are emotional and they become more and more emotional each day.
> 
> So yeah, when Konotashi posted that entrance post, I was not surprised at all because it is the truth. Plain and simple truth. That is how people feel about the sport, rigged trials, abusive methods to get the dogs trialed faster, bought titles also called (written trials i.e. dog never trialed but still got the title and there actually is a case about that going on in Germany right now).
> 
> That is why we are trying to change something and started the website "www.schutzhundesport.org" because we are trying to change that perception with the personal experience of schutzhund dog handlers. Because that channel, running the media campaign is extremely biased and will not stop until they succeeded in what they want, ban the sport!


No longer called Schutzhund but IPO....we can't use the word bite in a trial.


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> No longer called Schutzhund but IPO....we can't use the word bite in a trial.


Yeah but the whole point is that the public doesn't care that all of a sudden it's called IPO and that you cannot use the word bite in a trial. 

The reputation doesn't change just because it's named IPO now. To the public it's still Schutzhund and things haven't changed. While the sport has progressed, the public relations haven't and people are still stuck in the mindset that the sport is still like 20 years ago, and in quite a few cases that is the truth. 

It doesn't matter if they change the name a hundred times. IPO, VPG, Schutzhund... it won't change the perception of the people.


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## Liesje

The public I know has no knowledge of either word/acronym and could not care less what we call our sport just like I could not care less if the "NBA" became the "NABA" or something like that. Their club/org, their name, what would I care? I still refer to it as Schutzhund and our club still has "Schutzhund" in the title. I do not mind calling the titles "IPO" since it was silly to have half a dozen titles that are the exact same thing.


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## onyx'girl

My point is the change in wording/political influence, of course it changes nothing. So why not just stay transparent? Say ok instead of bite, whatever.....the dog still knows when its time to bite!


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## Mrs.K

Yeah, I don't get what they thought would happen. Nothing changed at all. Giving it a different name did nothing to change the perception of the public. Actually I think it made it worse, because it caused more confusion.


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## Liesje

I don't get it either. Even people I know who have taken German don't know what "voran" means in the context of my dog training so it means nothing to them whether I'm commanding the dog to bite or go out or not saying anything at all, but I guess it's a bigger issue in Europe.


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## Mrs.K

Liesje said:


> I don't get it either. Even people I know who have taken German don't know what "voran" means in the context of my dog training so it means nothing to them whether I'm commanding the dog to bite or go out or not saying anything at all, but I guess it's a bigger issue in Europe.


Yeah, it is unbelievable how much the perception has changed within a few years. 

It is about the abuse and that Schutzhund is outdated because "you just don't need it any longer and it is a thing of the past". 

The things people associate the sport with is unbelievable. 

Military, Militant people, even right winged nutjobs. 
It is abusive and we train attack dogs that should only be in the hands of the police. etc. etc. etc. 

The biggest thing is the abuse and attack dog argument.


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## Freestep

I had a similar experience with the SchH club I went to years ago. I had contacted the TD via email and asked if I could come out. He was very nice and very welcoming in the email. Once I got there, though, I was pretty much ignored. No one greeted me, no one talked to me, the TD was on the field working. That was fine, as I was busy watching the other dogs train anyway. I was just happy to be there and wait my turn. I had a lot to learn at that point and was soaking it in. I was trying to politely overhear conversations about dogs and training, but otherwise, I didn't try to butt in. 

Things didn't get much better in the following weeks. People seemed to enjoy their tight-knit club and didn't seem interested in letting anyone else (or at least me) come into the inner circle. Again, okay with me--I was there to train and learn, not necessarily to socialize, though I would have liked to have asked some questions I didn't quite feel comfortable. I would patiently wait 2-3 hours to get my turn, train for 15 minutes, and then everybody went their separate ways.

As it happened, the dog I had at the time became ill with cancer and we had to stop training. I didn't miss the 3 hours of travel time to the club and back, and enjoyed having my Thursdays and Sundays back, but was still interested in SchH.

When it came time to train a new pup, I came back to the same club and the same thing happened. No one really wanted to talk with me. I even had a sable this time.  I would try to chit-chat and make small talk, and ask questions whenever I thought it was polite to do so. Some folks were more willing to talk than others, but the overall feeling I got was that of being in the way.

Eventually, I decided to go with a different training group, rather than the SchH club. Why? I just seemed to fit in better with the new group, people seemed happy to see me, I was included, and I got a lot more actual training. Plus, the new group was only a 40 minute drive each way rather than 90. 

So, I can easily see why newbies would be put off of SchH. I personally could have stuck with the club if the circumstances had been different. But I was spending literally all day driving and waiting for 15 minutes of training, and in the end, I felt like my time could be better spent at the new training group, and no one would miss me if I stopped going to the SchH club.

SchH people often complain that newbies never want to stick with the program, so why bother with them? It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.


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## onyx'girl

The club I joined was somewhat that way with me, other than the person I actually went there to train with. The helper pulled the "do you know who I am?" His ego is pretty fragile, and he was a bit put off that I wasn't there for his *expertise* but someone else's. We never really clicked, and I left when the person I was there for quit(It was her property we trained on, too)....not sure how that club is fairing now. And the helper constantly had guests coming to club to work their dogs so he could make $. As I was a newb, I was not priority, even though I thought I was generous in tipping him.


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## Vandal

> Thanks OP, the thread almost made me chuckle. You can, certainly, replace the "SchH" in "SchH snobs" with almost anything in life.


Exactly. Interesting that the people complaining have described themselves and their level of sensitivity, which makes things rather clear to me. Meaning, there are always three sides to a story but only one usually is told. 
The world is not going to change to adjust to you, I can pretty much assure you of that. It should be a case where people make adjustments to how they deal with things but nowadays, it seems if something makes them uncomfortable, they want it eliminated or they will demonize it on the internet. Out here in LA , the rogue cop in a grey truck killed three people and the police started shooting at a number of grey/blue trucks. What caused that? Fear. The people they shot had done nothing and this is how I read these threads. Everyone in SchH is in a grey truck because the people complaining are shy or intimidated, whatever. 
The SchH club started getting there earlier out of spite and to chase the others off. There can be no other reason right? Yeah, I am getting old and tired of people. I have the urge to call people "Hun" and "Sonny" and it is not rooted in affection.

When I started in SchH 35 years ago, some of the people in the club I went to behaved that way, others did not. The worst offender is now one of my best friends and I could not have learned what I have without knowing her. Sometimes, just hanging in there and having a tad of character and strength, changes things . When I started working at new jobs, some of the people behaved that way, while others did not. Sure didn't quit my job because of it. 

I have no doubt people in SchH clubs can be unfriendly but the people complaining usually show a rather significant level of "unfriendly" themselves and in this thread, that is quite clear. We have someone repeating what they heard. That's when my BS meter goes off. There is a level of immaturity in this and I will tell you one thing. What I have learned the most in all my years of dog training, ( and as a Director of a large retail establishment), is about PEOPLE. I can read them better than the dogs and as Keith pointed out, people get tired of the same types showing up. 
They have learned to recognize them and are not ready to invest their time, ( which believe it or not, is as valuable as yours), in people who have no real interest or the first time they don't like something, take to the internet to complain about them. Sorry I don't sound "friendly"...SchH trainer ya know.
Back to knitting.


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## zivagirl

holland said:


> I really loved the Canadian clubs I visited -they took the time to make me feel welcome-and they seemed really close knit-it was an enjoyable experience-and the club members were experienced-also liked the last club I was in...but have been in clubs for quite a while that in this thread are described as friendly and outgoing and it was great when I did everything that they were saying but when I started (with their permission) to participate in another club it was a big problem-and people who I thought were my friends weren't. . I train AKC now and enjoy the people I train with-also enjoyed the last club I trained in But I am not really a club person...cause you are either one of the club or you're not ...


It's a Canadian thing.


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## holland




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## Catu

> They started getting there at 8:30 so we had to find another park to practice at.
> This wouldn't bother me, normally (because it WAS their usual park before us), but when they found out we were using it, they started coming for training earlier so we had to relocate.


So they use to train in a park, but later, when they arrive, there is other people using it, so they start arriving earlier. Isn't it the logical thing to do? 

And dare they to give unfriendly looks to the people who has been occupying the place where they've always trained? Duh?


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## martemchik

I want to know what kind of park this is...just a city/county park with a large field that they just train Schutzhund on? That would never fly where I live...and we have one of the most pet friendly areas I've ever been. I can take my dog to the county parks, let him off leash (not legally but no one gripes) and train simple stuff, let him run, let him swim (lake Michigan), and just have a blast...but I think if I started working bite work without an enclosed area...there would be phone calls lol.

I mean...I get the whole "its everyones park" thing but I'm just focusing on the activity and what it involves, its not something the general public usually understands and I'm sure the parents across the street at the playground wouldn't really like to see it going on.


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## GSDElsa

Ann hit it spot on imo. Whole thread makes me roll my eyes. I've encountered these types in every sport I've been involved in. 

I know some people think my club isn't super friendly. Funny though...i have managed wonderfully with them with a rescue and a dog I imported on my own. Show your own friendliness and commitment and you'd be surprised.

But after one experience youre coming on the internet whining about schh snobs....probably dont even bother.


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## Liesje

LOL we have the same with flyball. We have people that come to practice and travel to every tournament but don't even HAVE a dog and seem to enjoy themselves, and then we have people that come once or twice, or beg to come and never show up or can't handle the length of the practice or having to attend a tournament before you're allowed to be voted in.

I recently visited a local GSD club and decided it was not for me. The people were OK and no one seemed hostile or uninviting but it just didn't "click". Nothing wrong with that.


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## ayoitzrimz

A common thing I hear here is that people left because they felt like they were being "ignored" by the club members. On the other side you have the veterans who see maybe 50 new people over a year. 10 of them stay for a month. Maybe 2 will stay for a year. 1-2 will title their dogs. (These are just an example, not to scale as they say  ) so surely they'll have their reservations about "opening up the red carpet" for anybody that comes to their training.

At the end of the day, if you are going out to a club where everyone knows each other, it is up to YOU to reach out, make some friends, come prepared, ask questions, be polite, and take any criticism on the chin. Nobody is cursing at you, nobody is calling you names or attacking you personally. If you don't like the atmosphere move on to the next club. Find the club that fits YOUR training style best. 

Some clubs are more business-like than others. I've been to clubs where the grill and beers will be flowing from the morning till the afternoon and clubs that don't even go for a coffee run until everyone has done tracking + obedience. Other clubs come in, train, and go home. It's different everywhere. Find the club that works well for you, whether it be schutzhund, flyball, AKC obedience etc


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## Jag

lhczth said:


> I guess I have been very lucky. While I have met some not so pleasant people in my 21 years in SchH I have found most of those to be the people that have done nothing. I have met people like that, though, in many of the dogs sport areas (30 years total) and even more so in the horse show world (30 years). The majority of the people I have trained with and the clubs I have trained with have treated me and my dogs very well. Funny, in all these years not a single person has ever tried to sell me a dog.
> 
> My club does its best to be welcoming to all visitors and new people interested in SchH no matter the breed or type of dog (well, other than dogs that are totally unsuitable). Most never come back because they see the length of the day and realize there is no way they could dedicate that kind of time. Or they would rather pay to play, show up for their time and leave.
> 
> I know there are groups out there that are not so good. I have seen the clubs where everyone owns dogs from the TD and if they don't they soon will (because the dog they currently have isn't any good). I just haven't found them to be much of a problem because I never allowed them to be (and I was very shy when I started).


I have got to say, after twice being treated like I wasn't there and didn't matter at other clubs, I was THRILLED to visit yours!! I was very impressed with the fact that every question I asked was answered, suggestions were given to me about all kinds of things that were very helpful, and I NEVER felt like I was 'intruding'.  I didn't really think clubs like that existed after my previous experiences. It made me even more excited about the sport and participation. "Waiting" was NO big deal, because I got to see a lot and learn a lot. I wasn't just off in the corner. I think if all clubs were like this, it would be great. I count myself one lucky duck to have experienced this!


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## hunterisgreat

When anyone new shows up to our club, I make a point to get them to come out on the field and watch protection routines up close (~10-20 feet) so I can explain what and why we are doing. I also usually cut my OB short (most done at home anyway) to help them learn how to do that


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## zivagirl

Mrs.K said:


> Yeah, I don't get what they thought would happen. Nothing changed at all. Giving it a different name did nothing to change the perception of the public. Actually I think it made it worse, because it caused more confusion.


A rose by any other name is still just a rose.


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## zivagirl

Clubs are usually exclusive. Some, more so than others. Suddenly, I can hear my mother:

* Take what you can use, discard the rest
* There will always be idiots/mean people - ignore them
* If you have questions, don't expect anyone to answer them before you've asked
* You don't like 'them', start your own group
* Be happy in whatever you choose


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## Mrs.K

> Originally Posted by holland
> I really loved the Canadian clubs I visited -they took the time to make me feel welcome-and they seemed really close knit-it was an enjoyable experience-and the club members were experienced-also liked the last club I was in...but have been in clubs for quite a while that in this thread are described as friendly and outgoing and it was great when I did everything that they were saying but when I started (with their permission) to participate in another club it was a big problem-and people who I thought were my friends weren't. . I train AKC now and enjoy the people I train with-also enjoyed the last club I trained in But I am not really a club person...cause you are either one of the club or you're not ...


I absolutely have to agree with that. The new Club that is forming in Canada is absolutely awesome, open and welcoming. Their obedience is awesome and we just clicked right away. The only thing is that the helper is very very very green. So I won't do bitework because Nala is very green herself. So a green helper and a green dog... nope, not going to take that risk. 
But the obedience itself is absolutely amazing and I love how open and welcoming they are. I never really wanted to join a club but this one I'd actually join. 

Also, they are involved with many other things, which I like and I had the honor to glimpse into the CKC Utility Obedience and I'm amazed how hard that actually is. For the first time I saw what is expected of a dog. 

===============

As for the rest sniping at Marissa the way you did. Speaks volumes about yourself as well. If you sit in a Glasshouse, you shouldn't throw stones at someone else.
I know there is a big issue in SchH and people are trying to change that. If there wasn't a problem there wouldn't be so many people trying become active to seek change. 
There is an Initiative running but apparently the SV doesn't like that and deemed it dishonorable to be a member of that Initiative. The Initiative is for clean sport, against corruption, for public relations etc. 

Last big thing they were present at was the hearing against Judge Fiebig. Apparently he has given a title to a dog that never even trialed and word got out. They have yet to come to a verdict. 
People will do a lot to get titles. They buy them, they get them written, they use methods that are abusive to get them faster. 

So everything that Marissa heard, IS TRUE and everyone saying it isn't, is just blind. It's an everyday thing for me to see these stories pop up and I'm following these stories, following about what is going on within the SV. 

One of the best friends of my family was accused of fraud by a "so called" legend, only problem was, that legend, isn't clean himself and nobody, nobody believed that my families friend would ever be involved in such a thing. That "legend" tried to cover his own tracks and accused someone else of fraud. 

So many people have left the SV because of that it's not even funny. 

Yeah, I can totally see a group doing what Marissa described. I can see the dirty looks and I can see a group using abusive methods to title dogs faster. To me, friendly clubs ARE an exception. Maybe over here it is the other way around and unfriendly clubs are the exception but this forum is a small amount of people from thousands of people actually doing it. 

Again, unfriendliness, corruption, perception, abuse and rude behavior is very real in the Sport of Schutzhund and meanwhile, a lot of people have had enough and are not taking it any longer, which is why they started the Initiative.


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## TxFig

onyx'girl said:


> There is truth in some clubs wanting competitors to be committed....too much time can be wasted when someone is using up valuable club time and not following through on the sports requirements.


Hmmmm (he said).

I am getting my 1st GSD in a few weeks, but I have been involved in the Labrador Retriever world for the last 25+ years. Including being president of my local club (that hosted AKC field trails, hunt tests and HRC hunt tests). Which is to say - I know just a little something about "club dynamics". Both the good and the ugly... :laugh:

I'm not disputing your (*onyx'girl*) claim that this attitude might be true in that club (and yes, I know you were speculating and not stating fact). I've seen it in some other clubs in my area.

But it's a really, REALLY short sighted view for a club to take. 


First, I think back to when I got my first lab. I joined the local retriever club NOT wanting to "get titles" or "become a breeder" - but because I saw it as a way I could better train my retriever to be a better hunting companion. Getting titles on my dogs and eventually breeding came later (much later).


Does these SCH clubs not see that training for SCH skills is beneficial for the dog/owner in it's own right? Even if that person never enters an event or breeds their dog? A person with that "commitment" is something that takes time to develop - virtually nobody starts out that way from day 1.


Secondly, running a club takes manpower. Over time, people get older, loose interest, and burn out (I eventually burned out of the retriever games). That means clubs are always in need of an infusion of "new blood". If they are only seeking those people who are "committed to be a competitor", do they not realize that their club will eventually die out?



So I guess what I'm saying is that I object to your phrase "wasting the club's time"....


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## TxFig

I forgot to mention - I am DESPERATELY seeking a SCH/IPO club somewhere near my hometown of Bryan-College Station, TX..... 

Hopefully, one without alot of "snobs"...


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## Jag

I think Jane is correct. You don't just go to a club and say "Hey, I wanna join!" and you're in. You have to go through a process to be accepted. They want to make sure you're committed to the club. So 'not wasting the club's time' is EXACTLY the point. The only thing I find worrisome is that you could sometimes spend months with a club you want to join and maybe not get voted in.


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## TxFig

Jag said:


> I think Jane is correct. You don't just go to a club and say "Hey, I wanna join!" and you're in. You have to go through a process to be accepted. They want to make sure you're committed to the club. So 'not wasting the club's time' is EXACTLY the point. The only thing I find worrisome is that you could sometimes spend months with a club you want to join and maybe not get voted in.



Wow. I guess snobs is the right word.
That is exactly the kind of club I would *NOT* want to join. 



As I said, I am a past-president of Bryan-College Station Retriever Club (which at one time held the record for hosting the largest AKC Retriever Hunt Test in the nation). We were also one of the only clubs in the nation to hold licensed Hunt Tests for both the AKC and HRC (that in particular was MY doing - I personally spear headed that effort).

We did have an application form - but only so that people who were suspended or kicked out of other clubs *for cause* could be kept out. All newcomers who wanted in, DID just 'show up and join".


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## Mrs.K

TxFig said:


> Wow. I guess snobs is the right word.
> That is exactly the kind of club I would *NOT* want to join.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I am a past-president of Bryan-College Station Retriever Club (which at one time held the record for hosting the largest AKC Retriever Hunt Test in the nation). We did have an application form - but only so that people who were suspended or kicked out of other clubs *for cause* could be kept out. All newcomers who wanted in, DID just 'show up and join".


Welcome to the world of SchH. 

Showing up and join is exactly the way I know it from Germany as well. Over here, it is a different world and a huge adjustment of how things run. 
Plus it costs a lot of money. It is a sport of the Elite... most people can't even afford to do it because it's so darn expensive. 

And for the amount of money some expect you to dish out, a smile and friendly word isn't all that much to expect.


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## szariksdad

It depends on each club but I know around here they do want people who are working towards trialing their dog in Sch. This for most clubs has to do with liability insurance they carry. While others may not agree but most clubs around here make everyone a provisional when they come to join to see if both party's agree there is a good fit and then move someone over from provisional after a trial period to permanent member. Its not fair to compare Sch training with Labs since their is added liability of training a dog to know when to bite.


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## TxFig

Mrs.K said:


> Welcome to the world of SchH.
> 
> Showing up and join is exactly the way I know it from Germany as well. Over here, it is a different world and a huge adjustment of how things run.
> Plus it costs a lot of money. It is a sport of the Elite... most people can't even afford to do it because it's so darn expensive.
> 
> And for the amount of money some expect you to dish out, a smile and friendly word isn't all that much to expect.




In the retriever games, there is a similar attitude among SOME of the folks who play the Field Trial games (as contrasted to the Hunt Test games). While both are "field events" and to the dog are not really all that different, field trails are designed to be _*Competitive Events*_. That is to say, the dogs are judged against *EACH OTHER*. At the end of the event, you will have one dog declared the WINNER, one other get 2nd, one get 3rd, maybe a couple more get a JAM. Everyone else who entered goes home empty handed.

This is compared to the Hunt Test games which by design are *Non-Competitive Events* - ie. each dog is judged against a *written standard of performance*. Each dog either Passes or Fails based on their performance vs that standard. That means at the end of the event, you _could_ have all the dogs pass (or they _could_ all fail). No dog is ranked against another.

The result of this is that _*AS A RULE*_, field trials tend to have more of a "I'm out for myself" attitude, cost ALOT more money to play, and tended to have alot more of the "snob" atmosphere. Hunt Tests otoh, tend to be alot of cooperative, and you see alot more of the "common hunting bubbas". 

That said, exceptions to this are very common - I have met some truly helpful, wonderful people in the field trail games and some remarkable bungholes in the hunt test games. :wild:



Back to SCH/IPO - as I said, I am brand spanking new to this. I've never seen one in person (but would dearly love to). Are these straight up Competitive Events?
If so, is there any sort of performance-based title-giving events which are non-competitive.


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## Mrs.K

> That said, exceptions to this are very common - I have met some truly helpful, wonderful people in the field trail games and some remarkable bungholes in the hunt test games.


Same goes for SchH. There are some truly wonderful people out there and I've met some really good friends through the Sport and SAR.


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## TxFig

szariksdad said:


> Its not fair to compare Sch training with Labs since their is added liability of training a dog to know when to bite.



You do know that training retrievers involves shooting guns, with live rounds, right?

Which has higher liability - a dog bite or a gunshot?


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## onyx'girl

TxFig, one 'problem' with SchH is that resources and time is limited. You sometimes only have one helper per club working the dogs. Trying to get everyone taken care of on a training day can be very, very tiring and if someone isn't showing commitment then yes, it is wasting valuable time. 
It has nothing to do with 'snobbery' IMO. It is the lack of time/good helperwork. And there is more than the protection phase, so just getting thru tracking and obedience can eat away half a day of training. Things have to move efficiently and be organized. 
I wish the people who are interested in the sport would look at it from the helper and TD's point of view. And as long as I'm wishing, I wish more would take on the role of mentoring new helpers and people would take advantage of the excellent talent that is aging out.


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## cliffson1

A previous poster made the point that there is two to three sides to a story....I went back and read the OP, I did not see anything about mistreatment by somebody wanting to join. Then someone else says they HEARD that this is the reception people get when they visit a club. A lot of speculation and innuendo to be painting the sport with a brush this wide. Do you know how snobby the show world is if you don't have a dog with the proper color or angles. C'mon folks....lets keep it real. The majority of SCH clubs are no more snobby than the average breed group.....some helpful people and some crabby people. Happens in everything. SCH is not exactly a perfect match for a shy timid dog or person, and both will probably be stressed in the environment because of the nature of the goals and concepts. Plenty of people have fun in these clubs, but it is something that you have to put yourself out equally in terms of commitment and patience as the club does in attracting new members. If the dog or the owner don't have the right temperament, then SCH is NOT going to be fun or probably possible. But then again, SCH is not for everyone that has a GS, and that doesn't make them snobs, it just means its not for that dog or that person. Jmo!


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## Liesje

A club's priority is _the club_. That mostly means the members who have already invested a lot of time, money, and work into the club, but also means welcoming new members since we weren't all born knowing everything and won't all live forever. It's a fine balance and really depends on each club. 

When I first started attending my flyball club I didn't know if I could join and it seemed like they already had plenty of people and good dogs, but now dogs have gotten old or injured, people have had things happen beyond their control and can't commit the time...now it's almost like we have to actively recruit some new members to survive whereas before, I was worried I was trying to get into a pretty mature group (as in, they had plenty of members, dogs, and experience without me).


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## GSDElsa

TxFig said:


> Wow. I guess snobs is the right word.
> That is exactly the kind of club I would *NOT* want to join.
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I am a past-president of Bryan-College Station Retriever Club (which at one time held the record for hosting the largest AKC Retriever Hunt Test in the nation). We were also one of the only clubs in the nation to hold licensed Hunt Tests for both the AKC and HRC (that in particular was MY doing - I personally spear headed that effort).
> 
> We did have an application form - but only so that people who were suspended or kicked out of other clubs *for cause* could be kept out. All newcomers who wanted in, DID just 'show up and join".


But I think what you're missing in this whole thing is how SchH works. Unfortunately, you can't effectively run a club without a helper to work dogs. And good helpers are few and far between. You simply CANNOT let anyone in that feels like it. It sucks and it might be elitist, but there are only so many hours in a day and so much wear and hear a helper can take on his body a day so you are generally VERY restricted on the number of members you can have. So if you have 5 prospective members and only room for 2 people before you are stretching your resources then yeah, you have to pick what 2 people are going to work best for the club. 

You are absolutely comparing apples to oranges.


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## TxFig

onyx'girl said:


> TxFig, one 'problem' with SchH is that resources and time is limited. You sometimes only have one helper per club working the dogs. Trying to get everyone taken care of on a training day can be very, very tiring and if someone isn't showing commitment then yes, it is wasting valuable time.


I KNOW the work it takes to put those on - I was the one doing them in my retriever club. 

The solution is that the club needs MORE people in the club - not fewer.
Over time, the more newbie people they have, the more the newbies become EXPERIENCED. And the more experienced people a club has, the less the work load on any single experienced person. 


The real question at stake here is this:

Just WHO is the club there for ?​You might be interested to know that the answer to that question is not unique to SCH clubs.... It is endemic to Retriever Clubs too (and by extension - I would guess ALL clubs). It was stated in this forum area that the # of SCH clubs is shrinking. Well this is true of all types of clubs.

Why? 

It's not that the sport is loosing popularity. The number of people with dogs is at an all time high - and growing. I don't know the number of people running SCH/IPO events - but I know that the number of people entering Retriever hunt tests is growing (to the point that it is causing problems of it's own). 

The answer to WHY is "because the clubs are not meeting the needs of everyone in the club."


In your club example above, the only people whose needs are deemed important are those who are "dedicated and committed." Well here's a news flash - NOBODY is dedicated and committed when they first get started. The end result of that kind of club is exactly what we're seeing - clubs shutting down.


The solution is exactly what I did back when I was president of my retriever club - I looked at the reasons why a new person would join a club and why an experienced person would remain in a club. And then I created a way for the club to satisfy those needs.

Did it work: you be the judge - while other clubs in my area were closing their doors, my club became the only one to host both the AKC Master National as well as the HRC International Grand. Ever. 


I may not know anything about SCH or IPO. But I do know how to make a club succeed. And turning away newbies ain't it.


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## TxFig

GSDElsa said:


> But I think what you're missing in this whole thing is how SchH works. Unfortunately, you can't effectively run a club without a helper to work dogs. And good helpers are few and far between. You simply CANNOT let anyone in that feels like it. It sucks and it might be elitist, but there are only so many hours in a day and so much wear and hear a helper can take on his body a day so you are generally VERY restricted on the number of members you can have. So if you have 5 prospective members and only room for 2 people before you are stretching your resources then yeah, you have to pick what 2 people are going to work best for the club.
> 
> You are absolutely comparing apples to oranges.




You think just anyone can create a setup and help people train field dogs?

Geez.


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## onyx'girl

TgFix....There is not always the resources to have over 12 teams per club(and some people may be working more than one dog) And I didn't say this, 'the only people whose needs are deemed important are those who are "dedicated and committed'... but in reality, those that don't show up regularly or don't show progress are a burden on an already stressed situation. 
The ones getting ready to trial are the ones that are the most important, that is the truth, and as it should be. If you are not yet ready to trial, then the pressure to fix or clean up something isn't as big a deal.
Like I said, I wish more would see it from the helper/TD side, and not 'what can I get out of it' but what can I do to help! 

And, by the way, when I began, you bet I was committed. I showed up every week and during the week, and tried to work on what I needed to throughout the week~and my goals aren't for the podium. I just got hooked/addicted, and enjoyed being a sponge to learn as much as I could. I also wanted to help out as much as possible so my club wouldn't feel that me, as a newbie was a burden to them.


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## Liesje

Why are we criticizing SchH clubs based on retriever hunt tests? I'm lost...

A helper can only physically work so many dogs in a day, especially days when it's 90s and humid and they have to wear certain gear to be safe. Many clubs already limit how many dogs current members can work, even before they limit how many members the club can support. It's fairly common for clubs to allow a member to work a second dog only after titling the first. The process of titling the first dog demonstrates the member's commitment to the club/sport and that they are well on their way with training and are not taking up a huge percentage of the club's time with multiple dogs. Clubs are also fighting daylight during the fall/winter/early spring.


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## Jag

You are VERY wrong about 'no one's that committed'! I drive over 2 hours to get to the club I'm going to. I went in crappy weather conditions, too. I'm committed enough to spend hundreds of dollars on equipment, training, etc. This is something I've wanted to do for YEARS. To get there on time when the tracking part starts, I'll be getting up at like 4am. Think I care?? All I want is to get accepted into that club and work my tail off (and Grim's) and contribute and help and be a part of something that I love. I have someone willing to hold my hand through the training, the issues, the learning... and I know NOTHING. That's a LOT of time this person is giving me!! I am thanking my lucky stars!! That's time that they are taking away from their own training, their own life, their own responsibilities to help me work through some issues and get things rolling. These clubs don't OWE anyone anything! The helper took his time to evaluate my dog. He took time to discuss my dog with me. Other club members also gave me their time to input on his eval and to TEACH me. They all had dogs to work. Their time is important. Yet, they ALL took the time to teach me. To let me in on ways to do things that may work better than what I've been doing. 

I can also tell you, that helper took some hits! Have you ever had to catch a GSD coming at you? Had a dog come dirty into a blind? It's not as easy as they make it look. This guy I saw puts a LOT of effort into what he does. Watching the interaction between dog and helper... there's a 'dance' of sorts going on there that's pretty amazing to watch. Plus, he's evaluating each dog on every turn. Then, that feedback goes to the handler. It's not a wham-bam thing. Plus, many members have more than one dog. Sometimes it takes a few times to get things going right. I witnessed the members who were there working together like a well oiled machine. It's all for the love of it. BUT...everyone's time and effort is worth something. Why have a group busting their tails and then let someone in who is half hearted about it? It just won't work. It's not fair to the people in the club. So, yeah, you roll the dice that you'll get in. There IS a reason for it, though... and it's a good one!


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## KJenkins

Club dynamics may be the same but the mechanics are not. There simply is nothing within retriever training that remotely comes close to the level of physical exertion that a helper expends on a typical training day. Even for a small club.


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## Mrs.K

As for commitment, that is true. The only reason that's keeping me back is gas money. We simply don't have that much money to dish out which is why I started my own business to earn that gas money so I can go on a regular basis. I'm driving three hours to see one of the best helpers out there. So for obedience I'm going to Canada now. 

I was extremely commited to SAR, every weekend was packed with training. Now with Canada I can even make it twice a week for Obedience and Obedience IS an important part about SchH because if I don't progress in Obedience I won't make any overall progress in Bitework. That's the simple truth. 

So why not make it mandatory for beginners to start with Obedience and Tracking before they get to do any bitework at all, that way you still have time for your old members and the new members can prove themselves. 

Why not do it like SAR teams do? Everyone is so quick to jump on bitework because it's the coolest part, but let's be honest, without obedience, there is no solid bitework. If there is time for the new dogs, have them do bitework but other than that, I'd have them do tracking and bitework for at least half a year or year and build them up by doing prey-work whenever there is time? 

Once the obedience is there, it's going to be a lot faster in bitework too.


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## Jag

onyx'girl said:


> TgFix....There is not always the resources to have over 12 teams per club(and some people may be working more than one dog) And I didn't say this, 'the only people whose needs are deemed important are those who are "dedicated and committed'... but in reality, those that don't show up regularly or don't show progress are a burden on an already stressed situation.
> The ones getting ready to trial are the ones that are the most important, that is the truth, and as it should be. If you are not yet ready to trial, then the pressure to fix or clean up something isn't as big a deal.
> Like I said, I wish more would see it from the helper/TD side, and not 'what can I get out of it' but what can I do to help!
> 
> And, by the way, when I began, you bet I was committed. I showed up every week and during the week, and tried to work on what I needed to throughout the week~and my goals aren't for the podium. I just got hooked/addicted, and enjoyed being a sponge to learn as much as I could. I also wanted to help out as much as possible so my club wouldn't feel that me, as a newbie was a burden to them.


THIS. I already feel like a burden, though... because of my handler errors with Grim. So I'm already requiring time, effort, etc. and I'm just a 'guest'. I'm eternally grateful. No one has to do this for a 'noob'. I, also, just want to soak up every bit of knowledge I can.


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## lhczth

I had a long post written and then realized that I would be arguing with a person who has stated they know NOTHING about SchH/IPO. Just not worth my time. I would rather help those who are actually interested in learning.


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## lhczth

KJenkins said:


> Club dynamics may be the same but the mechanics are not. There simply is nothing within retriever training that remotely comes close to the level of physical exertion that a helper expends on a typical training day. Even for a small club.


:thumbup:


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## onyx'girl

I think he's open to learning, but hasn't yet experienced going to a club. And I do agree with many points TgFix has made. 
There is something to be said about a fresh perspective. Maybe after he's gone to a club he will enlighten us on how to be better. 



> "I created a way for the club to satisfy those needs."


 can you share how?


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## x11

apologies to the membership for making nasty generalisations about people i don't even know. 

have to admit i got a bit of the chip on the shoulder from my experience of schuts and not being allowed to play just cos i didn't by a puppy from the TD. my problem not anyone else's and it was wrong to put negativity out there cos of my own issues.


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> I think he's open to learning, but hasn't yet experienced going to a club. And I do agree with many points TgFix has made.
> *There is something to be said about a fresh perspective.* Maybe after he's gone to a club he will enlighten us on how to be better.
> 
> can you share how?


:thumbup:


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## Mrs.K

Let me give you an example how it generally works in the German Clubs I've been to. 

There are set training days for the BH group, puppy group and SchH group. 

Let's say Saturdays is club training. The BH group is from 10-12 and the SchH group from 1300-1900. 

The BH group is completely separate from SchH training, however it is held by the experienced SchH people and to everyone open that is interested in SchH. Before they get to join the SchH group, they have to show their commitment to overcome the obstacle of the BH and if they want, they are allowed to watch the SchH training. 

They are also welcome to join the tracking. If SchH is their goal. However, bitework and the rest of the stuff they only get to do, once they've passed the BH. 

So I really do not understand why there is such an issue with commitment. Once somebody passed the BH you can be sure that the person is committed and you don't have to worry about the helper being overworked for a while. 

So why not opening a BH group, held by experienced handlers that are willing to volunteer. If these people come back you know they are committed and the dog gets the obedience it needs, you get club members and a better reputation.

And don't tell me it is imppossible. All you need is a good handler that already has a title or two that is willing to volunteer and set the time at a different day or before/after SchH training. 

It's really not that hard to organize that and you don't need a helper for BH training.


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## onyx'girl

I'd rather start out a young dog at least in tracking and obedience....with a little rag work done now and then, but most pups do need to mature some before doing protection. Where I train, most pups aren't doing bitework until they are a year or so. Still makes for a long day of training. 
IMO anyone that hasn't trained before should be going regularly, observing the skilled handlers to better learn handling skills, timing and other aspects of all three phases. I'd hate it if I was isolated in a BH group.


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> I'd rather start out a young dog at least in tracking and obedience....with a little rag work done now and then, but most pups do need to mature some before doing protection. Where I train, most pups aren't doing bitework until they are a year or so. Still makes for a long day of training.
> IMO anyone that hasn't trained before should be going regularly, observing the skilled handlers to better learn handling skills, timing and other aspects of all three phases. I'd hate it if I was isolated in a BH group.


My point was that people are welcome to watch the SchH Training but only get to work their dogs during the BH group. That does make a big difference, that is why both, the BH group and the SchH group should be the same day. Let's say you have three new prospective handlers. Take two hours for Obedience, for the BH group, than an hour break for the SchH people to arrive and if the prospective handlers are really committed they WILL stay and watch the SchH training. 

Also, most of the time our group is done around 1500/1600 with obedience and bitework, so the BH group could be after the SchH group and a good handler could volunteer for them. 

It makes it so much easier for everyone involved. If they want to, they can come early and watch the training and once the helper walks off the field, they get to take out their dogs and train them.

It is a win/win situation for both sides. No interference with the SchH group. Handlers get to watch and learn and then to work their dogs.


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## onyx'girl

From my observations with the clubs I've been in, the younger dogs are doing shorter sessions in tracking and ob so aren't really a burden on the time. Tracks are shorter, obedience is mostly focus work so 10 minutes on the field is about all that is necessary. We usually have 2-3 dogs on the field when we train to keep the pace moving and give the dogs a distraction of sorts. I guess for the larger member groups your idea would be great, but a club with less, it isn't that big a time crunch. I know the pay to play clubs have flights and you know exactly when/what you are doing...but tracking isn't done during that time either. Tracking is on another day. 
I like the type club that goes out early to track, a few people watch/critique others when they track. and then you move on to OB, followed by protection. 

Protection is where the time eater is, especially if someones working out a problem/issue. And giving the helper a break in between~discussing the session previous and the upcoming one. Then many helpers start in with stories worthy of hearing, but eating away daylight! LOL


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## Mrs.K

onyx'girl said:


> From my observations with the clubs I've been in, the younger dogs are doing shorter sessions in tracking and ob so aren't really a burden on the time. Tracks are shorter, obedience is mostly focus work so 10 minutes on the field is about all that is necessary. We usually have 2-3 dogs on the field when we train to keep the pace moving and give the dogs a distraction of sorts. I guess for the larger member groups your idea would be great, but a club with less, it isn't that big a time crunch. I know the pay to play clubs have flights and you know exactly when/what you are doing...but tracking isn't done during that time either. Tracking is on another day.
> I like the type club that goes out early to track, a few people watch others track and then you move on to OB, then protection. Protection is where the time eater is, especially if someones working out a problem/issue. And giving the helper a break in between~discussing the session previous and the upcoming one. Then many helpers start in with stories worthy of hearing, but eating away daylight! LOL


That is why there was a BH group. Only after they successfully earned their BH they got to go on the field to work them in protection. Firs they had to show the commitment to overcome the BH. 

If you want to know if someone is committed to the training, have them get the BH first. 

Same goes for Agility. You cannot compete in Germany in Agility without getting the BH. Same for RH. You need the BH. 

The BH is the prerequisite for anything you do and it tests the commitment. If you have a group separate from SchH, they do not take the time away from the seasoned handler and still get to watch. That is why there are BH groups separate from the SchH groups, so the newbies do not take time away from them yet get to work their dogs.


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## Liesje

The problem I see with that scenario is that trials are so few and far between here, often getting a BH is about more than the training. I traveled two states over (4 hours) just to do a BH. Just because a dog does not have a BH yet or is not titled does not mean it's not good enough or the handler isn't experienced or committed yet. I know a few people who choose to train a dog through SchH3 and then will wait until trial season picks up and do all of their trials one after the other. Also we had a seminar recently by some pretty popular and knowledgeable SchH folk who actually train their dogs in protection first and don't even start obedience until the dog can do the protection routines. I don't necessarily agree with that, but there are many styles of training that wouldn't really work with being stuck in a pre-BH group until the dog earns a BH and not being able to do anything else.


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## onyx'girl

How many clubs are that large though or want to be(unless it is pay to play)?
Usually there is a cap on membership. 
The only ones that I know that the B group would work well for is the guys who train dogs for their living, and can work 5 or 7 days a week training dogs. 
In certain areas of MI there are so many clubs, seldom are turning away members. But many are expensive/profitable to the helpers.
On my side of the state, nothing IPO(mostly the Dutch and Irish located here...still waiting for the KNPV club to get going!)
South-Eastern MI is a fairly large German settled area. The name of the roads are mostly German.


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## Jag

I don't know if I would like that, either. I want to be part of the group. I think keeping everyone together (but less time with the younger dogs on bite work) is the best way to go. I'd like to see the development in bite work over time, and wouldn't want to wait that long to start tracking. Especially not with having a dog that really could use it!


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## Mrs.K

Guess a model that works for I don't know how many years in Europe isn't good enough for the "Snobs" over here. 

You are not separated from the group. You can watch the group and be part of that group. 

The whole point of the BH group is that you are with people that are at the same level and if you are the only one, think about all the time the trainer has just for YOU and how quickly you will learn with your dog. 

Look into the Equestrian world. You think beginners take lessons with advanced dressage riders? You think the newbies in Agility are in advanced Agility classes? 

No, they start out in beginner classes so the trainers can actually take their time to explain the in and out of the sport and what you have to do without taking the time away from the advanced handlers. 

It doesn't mean you can't work on the retrieve or the jumps or watch and be part of the SchH group. But if you guys can't see the benefit of having a separate group for beginners than you will be stuck in the same circle for years. 

It meets the needs of both, beginners and advanced folks!


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## Smithie86

We do all 3 phases on the same day. We have people traveling from 2-4 hours away each weekend. These are the people that are committed and on time.

We start with tracking. We are starting to rotate tracking - if you are not serious and not on time, we leave to go to the tracking fields and you will meet us at the training field. Late people (and it is always the local nearby people, no matter what time training is at - they are always late and no notice) are disrespectful and disruptive to everyone. People need to watch and support everyone.

Serious means commitment. You can be serious at the BH and basic level and be more committed than someone that supposedly has been doing this longer at a slightly higher level.


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## Liesje

We do obedience in pairs and you usually have 5-6 people out watching, spotting, coaching, and helping you so I don't see how it's all that different? One person on a long down, the other working their dog. Everyone who isn't otherwise doing something watches and helps not just one experienced person (though some people have more skill with spotting and giving ideas on the spot, others can help by forming the group, firing the shots, helping adjust the obstacles for retrieve...). I know I have a bad habit of getting chatty with people and often have to remind myself to get off my butt and go help! Everyone pays the same amount and everyone is expected to help regardless of their experience or how many dogs they are training so everyone gets the same one-on-one time out on the field with people helping.


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## KJenkins

First this isn't Germany where you can't swing a cat and not hit a club but I appreciate you once again pointing out US deficiencies . I drive further to train r/t than it takes to drive across Germany east to west. More people than not are in that same situation as myself with the distances between clubs/training groups so we need to try and get as much time on the filed as we can.


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## Mrs.K

Then whats all that whining about having new people join the club? 

If you (in general) argue that there is no time for new people than this IS the solution. Plain and simple. Either you want more people to join the club or you don't.


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## Liesje

It all depends on the club and their resources. I've trained with clubs that had 2-3 healthy helpers and were begging for more people and I've trained with clubs where we basically decided we were at capacity. Like people keep saying, you cannot *force* a helper to work more dogs than they can handle. How does that serve anyone? It can be dangerous in the heat and it's not beneficial to the club if their helper is doing a half-butt job on all the dogs because there are just too many of them to work. I've already had my dog worked by helpers that were probably over-doing it (back problems, hip problems, etc). The club might be looking for 4 new people and then 8 months later isn't accepting any new members. Things are in flux all the time. When I first started there was no club so we basically started our own, then thing changed and we all parted ways. Eventually I found a different club I liked and was told the club was probably full but I stuck around and got in.


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## arby665

Smithie86 said:


> We do all 3 phases on the same day. We have people traveling from 2-4 hours away each weekend. These are the people that are committed and on time.
> 
> We start with tracking. We are starting to rotate tracking - if you are not serious and not on time, we leave to go to the tracking fields and you will meet us at the training field. Late people (and it is always the local nearby people, no matter what time training is at - they are always late and no notice) are disrespectful and disruptive to everyone. People need to watch and support everyone.
> 
> Serious means commitment. You can be serious at the BH and basic level and be more committed than someone that supposedly has been doing this longer at a slightly higher level.


Would you mind telling me where you train? I live in Huntsville and it looks like our only choice is to go to Nashville or Birmingham. It's about equal distance either way for us. Being new at this I don't know exactly what I should be looking for in a club. Thanks for any input!


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## onyx'girl

The thread was started because of the attitude observed of a SchH club....not about whether or not they can accomodate members. 
A few of the responses in this thread do show there is 'attitude'....rolling eyes, etc which does give someone reading who's never even been to a club reason to believe there is just that....snobbery! But like many posted, you find that in all walks of life, some people are nice/neutral, some think they are above it all and some are so intimidated that everything is scary....and everything in between.


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## holland

GSDElsa said:


> Ann hit it spot on imo. Whole thread makes me roll my eyes. I've encountered these types in every sport I've been involved in.
> 
> I know some people think my club isn't super friendly. Funny though...i have managed wonderfully with them with a rescue and a dog I imported on my own. Show your own friendliness and commitment and you'd be surprised.
> 
> But after one experience youre coming on the internet whining about schh snobs....probably dont even bother.


Hun...its the schutzhund thread agreeing with Ann in the schutzhund thread isn't exactly sticking your neck out and taking a risk is it

Am I flawed...you bet I am thats why I am not in your club-perfect is just too hard and frankly(forgive the pun) a little boring...

To the OP if its a public park you have every bit as much right to be there as the schutzhund club-just get up early in the morning

Gosh I eye roll too...at those schutzhund people who have taken a wrong turn and ended up in the AKC ring...and they are still dressed for schutzhund have to get my amusement somehow


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## lhczth

Jane, like most threads, this one has ventured into other areas. 

I visited two clubs when I was in Germany. Guess that isn't as many as Mrs. K. has trained with. Both were clubs with world level competitors (one Mali, one GSD). Both clubs there were people working more of a routine center field and then others working in different areas with newer people or with their own pups. At the one club on the other side of the fence there was agility going on. Anyhow, at no time were there different time frames or groups. The puppies and young dogs worked both OB and PR and were given the time they needed (despite it being freezing cold, working under lights at night). The clubs were very efficient at how they used the time to make sure all the dogs were worked. The Mali club did not have a lit obedience field and they had to start up a generator to light their protection field. What I really liked is that these are true clubs. They have club houses, everyone hangs out afterwards and chats, drinks beer, eats. I was treated extremely well at the GSD club. The Mali people were not as social, but still very friendly. Their club was huge so more dogs were being worked in a short time frame. 

I have a friend that trains with a club in the south. She and I were talking last night because she is fairly new to SchH. Her TD/helper is a hired sleeve though they do have a club. She is fairly new to the sport and, gasp, has show dogs (she also now has a working dog) so wasn't always treated well. Also, gasp, she is a woman. Despite this, she wants to do SchH, she wants to compete so she sticks it out despite the snarky remarks from some of the members and the outrageous training fees (I could not train in her club because of this). I keep telling her to move back up here. We would welcome her in our club and there are a number of other clubs in our region that would welcome her.


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## abakerrr

Don't really know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape. 

I just hit the one year mark with my club and its no surprise that it took some effort on my part to prove that I was dedicated to the team. Showing up consistently late, only staying for your turn, making excuses why you haven't trained/ showed up the past few weeks, and not taking the initiative to help out are all things that WONT get you in with a club. Its not elitist, its the demonstration you need to prove to show YOUR serious about THEM taking you serious.


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## ayoitzrimz

abakerrr said:


> Don't really know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape.
> 
> I just hit the one year mark with my club and its no surprise that it took some effort on my part to prove that I was dedicated to the team. Showing up consistently late, only staying for your turn, making excuses why you haven't trained/ showed up the past few weeks, and not taking the initiative to help out are all things that WONT get you in with a club. Its not elitist, its the demonstration you need to prove to show YOUR serious about THEM taking you serious.


Seriously... its all related to the sense of entitlement people have nowadays. 

It's like "why wouldn't they welcome me with open arms? Don't they know how special I am? How smart my dog is? 
I would be an asset to any club and these guys are just elitist jerks because they fail to see that. 
Oh and of course I can't make 8am tracking I have kids to take care of! 
and oh, of course its not true that my dog may not be suited for bite work! They just say that because it's not the TD's breeding... 
oh and I'm sorry but I can't stick around all day I have a long drive home. 
What do you mean I have to help setup the field? 
What do I pay dues for? And are the dues really necessary? Can you put me on a payment plan? Why not???
What exactly do they pay for? 
And why am I being ignored? It's not because I ask the same questions every week and show NO improvement or understanding but because these guys are jerks, and on and on and on... 

jeez give it a rest people. If you are not welcomed with open arms it just means you have to either find somewhere else or make the effort to be accepted - show you are dedicated and show you are not here to bs and waste everyone's time. It's just so tiring hearing the same old cries and excuses... 

Not related to The OP's post at all by the way, but more so to the direction the thread has gone


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## martemchik

I'm not part of a Schutzhund club, but I am part of my state's GSD club. In 2 years I'm already the treasurer, and the people there really only accept you once you start volunteering and getting to know everyone for who they are and not just the dogs/training. Volunteering at our shows, staying after to clean up a bit, basically just participating and giving time to a place that charges $200 a year for club dues and training fees.

Of course we won't deny anyone that doesn't do those things...but you definitely get different treatment from instructors. It's just a human thing though...people are more willing to help those that they know better and that they see helping out the club. You put in a little more effort...they put in a little more effort. Also helps to be trying to trial/title a dog as well since a competition sit has to be more exact than a "pet" sit.


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## Mrs.K

> I visited two clubs when I was in Germany. Guess that isn't as many as Mrs. K. has trained with. Both were clubs with world level competitors (one Mali, one GSD). Both clubs there were people working more of a routine center field and then others working in different areas with newer people or with their own pups. At the one club on the other side of the fence there was agility going on. Anyhow, at no time were there different time frames or groups.


There are lots of different concepts on how a club is run and there are thousands of different clubs. 

One club for example has this concept for the BH group which is divided into three different groups. The groups train on Monday, Thursday and Saturday. 

Group 1: handler teams that already passed the BH
Group 2: young dogs and beginners
Group 3: advanced handler teams. 

Schutzhund is on Wednesdays and Saturdays. Saturday it's after the basic obedience (BH) class is done. 
Agility is on Thursdays approx. 1930 and THS is on Monday, Thursday and Saturday. 

It is a highly organized and popular club. 

Another Club for example has this time-frame

Monday 19:00	Schutzhundesport
Tuesday 18:00	Agility-Beginners Group 1
19:00	Agility-Beginners Group 2
Wednesday 18:00 Agility Advanced
Thursday no training
Friday 17:00	Obedience
Saturday 13:30	Puppies(8. - 16. week)
14:15	puppies (17. - 24. Lebenswoche)
15:00	Obedience/Basics
15:00	Group Work
Sunday 09:00	Tracking


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## Liesje

There are lots of dog clubs like that here. I go to a dog club where we do flyball on Tues, GSD club on Wed (more of a meeting/planning, not training), nosework on Thurs, and then trials on the weekends. They also offer several levels of obedience, agility, and puppy classes.


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## Mrs.K

Yeah, we don't have anything like that around here at all. Not that I know off. The closest club to me, that is consistently training twice a week is the new SchH club in Ottawa which is just one and a half hour away. However, the helper is very very very green but just for Obedience and Tracking, it's worth the drive plus I can go twice a week for the same amount of time I'd have to drive to Buffalo. 

The people are VERY outgoing which I told them too and they said that it is because other clubs are so unfriendly and they do not want to give the same experience to new people coming to the club and what I really like is that it's not just pattern, pattern and more pattern. What I like is that they do more than just Schutzhund style Obedience. 

Like I said, I never expected CKC Utility Obedience to be THAT challenging. The Canadian Club is the first Club I'm actually willing to join.


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## Konotashi

Catu said:


> So they use to train in a park, but later, when they arrive, there is other people using it, so they start arriving earlier. Isn't it the logical thing to do?
> 
> And dare they to give unfriendly looks to the people who has been occupying the place where they've always trained? Duh?


No, we would be gone by the time they got there. They just started showing up earlier once they knew we practiced there so we couldn't use the park at all. So now, between our flyball team and the SchH people, it's a rivalry on who can get there first. 
The only time they showed up while we were still there working was when they tried beating us there. Otherwise, we're long gone by the time they get there to train. 
They just don't want us using it. 



martemchik said:


> I want to know what kind of park this is...just a city/county park with a large field that they just train Schutzhund on?


It's a decent sized field in an industrial/business area. During our practices (which last about 2-3 hours), only two or three cars will pass by in that time. 



Mrs.K said:


> So why not make it mandatory for beginners to start with Obedience and Tracking before they get to do any bitework at all?


This sounds like a good (and safe) idea to me. 
If someone newer to the sport gets to try out bitework without at least a solid obedience foundation, how dangerous could that 'partially trained' bitework dog be if they decide not to pursue SchH?



onyx'girl said:


> IMO anyone that hasn't trained before should be going regularly, observing the skilled handlers to better learn handling skills, timing and other aspects of all three phases. I'd hate it if I was isolated in a BH group.


This is what I intend on doing.... Before getting my GSD.



lhczth said:


> I had a long post written and then realized that I would be arguing with a person who has stated they know NOTHING about SchH/IPO. Just not worth my time. I would rather help those who are actually interested in learning.


THIS. 
RIGHT HERE.
I'm very interested in learning, and hopefully competing someday. I just don't think it'd be wise to try and learn everything about SchH/IPO YEARS (hopefully not that long, but it's likely) before I get my dog I'd be competing with, considering training methods, clubs, people, etc. change over time. 
That long post may have been helpful for me, considering I DO know next to nothing about the sport.


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## zivagirl

ayoitzrimz said:


> Seriously... its all related to the sense of entitlement people have nowadays.
> 
> It's like "why wouldn't they welcome me with open arms? Don't they know how special I am? How smart my dog is?
> I would be an asset to any club and these guys are just elitist jerks because they fail to see that.
> Oh and of course I can't make 8am tracking I have kids to take care of!
> and oh, of course its not true that my dog may not be suited for bite work! They just say that because it's not the TD's breeding...
> oh and I'm sorry but I can't stick around all day I have a long drive home.
> What do you mean I have to help setup the field?
> What do I pay dues for? And are the dues really necessary? Can you put me on a payment plan? Why not???
> What exactly do they pay for?
> And why am I being ignored? It's not because I ask the same questions every week and show NO improvement or understanding but because these guys are jerks, and on and on and on...
> 
> jeez give it a rest people. If you are not welcomed with open arms it just means you have to either find somewhere else or make the effort to be accepted - show you are dedicated and show you are not here to bs and waste everyone's time. It's just so tiring hearing the same old cries and excuses...
> 
> Not related to The OP's post at all by the way, but more so to the direction the thread has gone


Guess what? We're not out in your club right now and there are no dogs being worked. And I don't think this is a matter of entitlement, but a matter of manners. Sheesh! Sometimes dogs are far better bred than humans!


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## FirstTimeGSD

I know someone who emailed the local ScH club ENDLESSLY, and got not a single response. Upon hearing this, I tried my hand and got....not a single response. Not even an "membership is closed" or something similar. Just didn't even bother responding to our requests for information.


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## Smithie86

abakerrr said:


> Don't really know why everyone is getting so bent out of shape.
> 
> I just hit the one year mark with my club and its no surprise that it took some effort on my part to prove that I was dedicated to the team. Showing up consistently late, only staying for your turn, making excuses why you haven't trained/ showed up the past few weeks, and not taking the initiative to help out are all things that WONT get you in with a club. Its not elitist, its the demonstration you need to prove to show YOUR serious about THEM taking you serious.


 
Excellent point. Clear and consistent communication, no hidden agendas or hidden training (to mess up). The effort, work, communication and support can not only come from the TD, etc. 

The only time that we have not communicated weeks/months ahead of time that there would be no training is when Gabor's father passed away (the weekend before Nationals). We let people know that we would be gone for two weekends for his service (out of the country) about 2 weeks ahead of time. People complained about that..... 

Yet some and some of the same people would not let us know that they were not coming to training. We trained throught the holidays. We trained the day after my father passed away unexpectedly (and waiting on travel arrangements).

No matter what you do and how you support, there will always be those that it will not be to their liking (after they complained about others....)


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