# Off Leash Training



## futureluna

Just wondering how people teach a dog to be responsive off leash?? Certain methods, ages you should start, ways to be safe while in training??


----------



## BlitzRomman

Start with solid OB on leash, then solid OB on leash in different areas with distractions, then OB at home off leash, then OB in different areas off leash. It's just a progressive timeline where you're adding one obstacle at a time.


----------



## ausdland

Right away. First thing, off lead recall with food or toy reward.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I start immediately off leash and don't introduce on lead training until they are over a year. The transition at that point is usually pretty simple. I will only leash them prior to that age if I have to have them in a high traffic area.


----------



## Slamdunc

I start on lead for heeling, when the dog is very correct and reliable I will toss the lead over it's shoulder or go to a short tab. I do not go off lead until the dog is very reliable and correct on lead. Then it is a training tab. 

For the recall, I worked the two toy game in an enclosed area. If it is a dog that I think will bolt I will use a long line. I always have a "plan A and a Plan B." Plan A is everything works out and the dog is correct it is praised and rewarded. If the dog makes a mistake or tries to bolt, I have a long line to reel the dog in. 

I start immediately regardless of the age of the dog. I just modify the training to fit the dog.


----------



## Muskeg

I did something a bit different with my current 9 month old dog. 

She was basically mostly off leash until she was about 6 months old. We used the leash to teach basic OB and when out on roads, so she certainly knows how to walk on a leash, but she wasn't leashed much.

She was great off leash until she got more independent, and that's when I introduced the e-collar. It literally took only ONE 15 minute session with e-collar, then a couple short refreshers, before her recall was 100%, with or without the collar. She is a smart dog, but I also have figured out a lot working with past dogs. This is a dog who also learned fetch to hand in five minutes... and it stuck. I love a trainable dog. 

That is how I do it- but this is just for hiking or running with the dog off leash. For sport OB I do start with leash, teach commands, proof them on leash then progress to off leash. 

I hate to see people stay reliant on a leash for too long, though, when often just a few clear sessions with an e-collar can train the dog to be safe off leash, and give you both lots more freedom. I muddled around with this for so long with past dogs, taking risks I shouldn't have by letting dogs off leash too soon, when figuring out the e-collar would have made everything super fast. 

It may not be for everyone, but it give my dogs freedom to just be dogs and go out on the trails with me, and not get lost chasing deer, etc.


----------



## futureluna

Muskeg said:


> I did something a bit different with my current 9 month old dog.
> 
> She was basically mostly off leash until she was about 6 months old. We used the leash to teach basic OB and when out on roads, so she certainly knows how to walk on a leash, but she wasn't leashed much.
> 
> She was great off leash until she got more independent, and that's when I introduced the e-collar. It literally took only ONE 15 minute session with e-collar, then a couple short refreshers, before her recall was 100%, with or without the collar. She is a smart dog, but I also have figured out a lot working with past dogs. This is a dog who also learned fetch to hand in five minutes... and it stuck. I love a trainable dog.
> 
> That is how I do it- but this is just for hiking or running with the dog off leash. For sport OB I do start with leash, teach commands, proof them on leash then progress to off leash.
> 
> I hate to see people stay reliant on a leash for too long, though, when often just a few clear sessions with an e-collar can train the dog to be safe off leash, and give you both lots more freedom. I muddled around with this for so long with past dogs, taking risks I shouldn't have by letting dogs off leash too soon, when figuring out the e-collar would have made everything super fast.
> 
> It may not be for everyone, but it give my dogs freedom to just be dogs and go out on the trails with me, and not get lost chasing deer, etc.


Thank you for the info. I respect whatever you want to do, but I personally will never use an E collar ever.


----------



## WIBackpacker

The trainer I use is pretty adamant about newer owners not even putting collars/leashes on puppies for the first month they're home, because it _forces_ the handler to work really hard on engagement without reliance on a leash. It might sound like blasphemy, but I've watched it work extremely well. When mature, these dogs are all expected to work off lead and far out of reach of their handlers.

Precision obedience is a different realm, and I'd defer to the advice of people who successfully participate in that venue. My recommendation above is for general, functional life skills, and obviously assumes you are not taking a young puppy into dangerous areas, breaking laws, etc.


----------



## Muskeg

It's totally up to you, but I hate hate hate to see dogs dying in the road, running off, getting lost, getting in trouble with wildlife, shot by farmers, because the owners won't keep an open mind on training techniques.


----------



## futureluna

Muskeg said:


> It's totally up to you, but I hate hate hate to see dogs dying in the road, running off, getting lost, getting in trouble with wildlife, shot by farmers, because the owners won't keep an open mind on training techniques.


Trust me in that I would never put my dog in even the slightest harm, or even a situation that would risk it. I just don't believe in many traditional correctional methods, don't see myself ever believing in them, but respect if you do.


----------



## futureluna

WIBackpacker said:


> The trainer I use is pretty adamant about newer owners not even putting collars/leashes on puppies for the first month they're home, because it _forces_ the handler to work really hard on engagement without reliance on a leash. It might sound like blasphemy, but I've watched it work extremely well. When mature, these dogs are all expected to work off lead and far out of reach of their handlers.
> 
> Precision obedience is a different realm, and I'd defer to the advice of people who successfully participate in that venue. My recommendation above is for general, functional life skills, and obviously assumes you are not taking a young puppy into dangerous areas, breaking laws, etc.


Sounds like a really good idea, thanks :smile2:


----------



## cloudpump

I go for a walk as soon as they come home. No leash. Puppies follow.


----------



## voodoolamb

With young pups I start training for off leash reliability immediately. I do a lot of marking and rewarding checking in behavior and following. I like to take advantage of those natural puppy behaviors to imprint what I want in the adult.


----------



## voodoolamb

futureluna said:


> Trust me in that I would never put my dog in even the slightest harm, or even a situation that would risk it. I just don't believe in many traditional correctional methods, don't see myself ever believing in them, but respect if you do.


You may be setting yourself up for failure by disregarding training techniques _before you even have a dog_ 

Not all dogs can be trained to full reliability with positive methods alone. There are plenty of dogs out there that will find chasing a squirrel to be more rewarding than getting a cookie or pleasing their handler. Heck not all dogs can be trained to be fully reliable period (I've had some terrier types that had such crazy high prey drive and dog aggression hitting them over the head repeatedly with a 2 by 4 would not have stopped their behavior while in drive. They just were not clear headed dogs. They needed to be managed for life)

What I have personally found that creates the most reliable obedience is TEACHING motivationally, TRAINING mostly positive and then PROOFING with corrections as needed per the individual dog. 

That means when I am teaching an initial behavior, I am using a lot of treats and toy rewards. I am a big fan of clicker training (I'm faster and more accurate at marking with a clicker than my voice. I blame video games.) I like to shape the behaviors. I like to lure. I do this in low distraction environments. Once the dog gets it, then I slowly build up and train the 3 Ds. Distance, Distraction, and Duration. I do this slowly and also with a TON of rewards. IF my dog falters, I assume I made a mistake and pushed too hard to fast and we take a step back in the difficulty level. Once my dog is reliable performing the command in a variety of areas, for the length of time I desire, and with me at different lengths... then it is time to PROOF the command.

This is done with a correction of some kind. The dogs need to know there are consequences when they choose not to perform a command. Some dogs are soft and have low enough drives that a verbal correction will suffice. Some dogs are so bull headed they need the 2 by 4. Most dogs fall somewhere in the middle. You can not say what a dog will need before evaluating them. 

The beauty of an e collar is that it can be used on just about ANY dog. There is such a range of correction levels on them they can work on both soft and hard dogs. Years ago I had a deaf great dane and I actually used very low level e collar stims to communicate with the dog when he was off leash (this was before many e collar brands had the vibrate function). The level was so low it was a tickle (I tried it on myself many times). This was maybe a level 2 stim. I have also used e collars on very high stim levels, close to 100, to train snake aversion skills to my dogs. I did not need my dogs bit by a rattle snake when we were a 3 day hike from civilization. I tried that high level stim on myself. I saw what it did to my dogs... Yes. It did HURT. It hurt A LOT. But... better to hurt the dog a little in a controlled environment then have him die in my arms when I couldn't do anything about it because he got nosey about a snake. 

That said, most of the dogs I have worked with an e collar have had a working level under 20. (Which, yes, I have tried on myself. It's like a tens unit. More annoying than painful). This is a lower correction than what most people give with leashes. And it can be done at a greater distance. 

Personally, I find keeping a long legged working breed on leash to be far more cruel than the average working e collar stim. But you have to have full reliability off leash in order to do that. For some dog and handler teams that is not going to happen without corrections to the dog.


----------



## voodoolamb

Here are some videos of my pup's functional recall





Hiking





at the creek





Even when I am sitting and eating lunch he doesn't wander too far but a whistle brings him racing back when he gets out of sight

Nothing on the dog. No e collar. No prong. No flat collar. No leash. I have called the dog out of pack fights off the dog park. Off from chasing deer and coyotes. Called him away from the road. I am very happy with his recall. 

I started on day one. No collar or leash. In my back yard. I had a clicker and his dinner. I just sat there and let him explore. As 8 week old puppies do he never went too far and would come and see what I was up to. EVERY time he came and checked in on me - he got praised and was given a handful of dinner. I would walk around the yard and his puppy instinct was to follow. More marking rewarding and praising. Literally marked and rewarded that behavior a 100 times a day. 
I started off leash nature walks with him immediately when he got home too. So LOTS of practice following me and bonding as a pack. 

As he got a little bigger, I incorporated toys and made myself much more animated. I'd whistle to get his attention, then RUN the opposite way waving his tug around like an idiot. When he caught me we would play, and then I would let him go off and explore again. Once he understood "whistle means run to mom" I started taking him to higher distraction places. I brought a toy on our nature walks. I put him on a long line at a busy park and practiced there. 

When he hit the teenage butthead stage and chose not to follow the commands, which by this time he 100% fully understood and had plenty of practice following them even in high distraction areas. He was corrected for not obeying. Mostly verbally but there were a few come to jesus moments that involved physical corrections. I do also use a negative marker when he is not doing the right thing, so he has plenty of warnings that there will be consequences. 

I don't use recall to end the fun. Good things always happen when he comes back to me when I call for him. Bad things happen when he doesn't.


----------



## Jenny720

We have a lot of trails near our house so often would go off leash as pup on the trails. At young age they are more eager to follow you. I would visit the beach off season l that would mean we would have it all to ourselves. Everytime my pup would check in with me they got a special yummy treats. I made sure I had one or two recall words that was not used often. Recall was often practiced in yard at home and given many many treats as a reward then later balls. On the hiking trails at the park i used a long lead more yummy snacks as we practiced recalls and voluntary check ins. As Max got a bit older it was difficult with distractions we have lots of wild life so it was a challenge. I went to a trainer to show me how to use an ecollar and we made big progress. Now Max can walk off leash to the car right past a feral cat without the ecollar on. I will still use ecollar for back up just in case when off Leash at trails at beaches or parks but I also have not used it and not dependent on it- that came with time. He used to be a dog that would run out the door at any opportunity , now if he steps out the door onto the deck to greet a family member comes right back in regardless if he sees cats , deer , squirrels scatter across the yard and with no e collar. Luna all you have to call her name in a sweet voice like your are singing she comes no matter. If you call her name in a firm voice she will blow you off if distracted. So I found with her it's the tone of voice was what made a difference with Luna.


----------



## futureluna

voodoolamb said:


> You may be setting yourself up for failure by disregarding training techniques _before you even have a dog_
> 
> Not all dogs can be trained to full reliability with positive methods alone. There are plenty of dogs out there that will find chasing a squirrel to be more rewarding than getting a cookie or pleasing their handler. Heck not all dogs can be trained to be fully reliable period (I've had some terrier types that had such crazy high prey drive and dog aggression hitting them over the head repeatedly with a 2 by 4 would not have stopped their behavior while in drive. They just were not clear headed dogs. They needed to be managed for life)
> 
> What I have personally found that creates the most reliable obedience is TEACHING motivationally, TRAINING mostly positive and then PROOFING with corrections as needed per the individual dog.
> 
> That means when I am teaching an initial behavior, I am using a lot of treats and toy rewards. I am a big fan of clicker training (I'm faster and more accurate at marking with a clicker than my voice. I blame video games.) I like to shape the behaviors. I like to lure. I do this in low distraction environments. Once the dog gets it, then I slowly build up and train the 3 Ds. Distance, Distraction, and Duration. I do this slowly and also with a TON of rewards. IF my dog falters, I assume I made a mistake and pushed too hard to fast and we take a step back in the difficulty level. Once my dog is reliable performing the command in a variety of areas, for the length of time I desire, and with me at different lengths... then it is time to PROOF the command.
> 
> This is done with a correction of some kind. The dogs need to know there are consequences when they choose not to perform a command. Some dogs are soft and have low enough drives that a verbal correction will suffice. Some dogs are so bull headed they need the 2 by 4. Most dogs fall somewhere in the middle. You can not say what a dog will need before evaluating them.
> 
> The beauty of an e collar is that it can be used on just about ANY dog. There is such a range of correction levels on them they can work on both soft and hard dogs. Years ago I had a deaf great dane and I actually used very low level e collar stims to communicate with the dog when he was off leash (this was before many e collar brands had the vibrate function). The level was so low it was a tickle (I tried it on myself many times). This was maybe a level 2 stim. I have also used e collars on very high stim levels, close to 100, to train snake aversion skills to my dogs. I did not need my dogs bit by a rattle snake when we were a 3 day hike from civilization. I tried that high level stim on myself. I saw what it did to my dogs... Yes. It did HURT. It hurt A LOT. But... better to hurt the dog a little in a controlled environment then have him die in my arms when I couldn't do anything about it because he got nosey about a snake.
> 
> That said, most of the dogs I have worked with an e collar have had a working level under 20. (Which, yes, I have tried on myself. It's like a tens unit. More annoying than painful). This is a lower correction than what most people give with leashes. And it can be done at a greater distance.
> 
> Personally, I find keeping a long legged working breed on leash to be far more cruel than the average working e collar stim. But you have to have full reliability off leash in order to do that. For some dog and handler teams that is not going to happen without corrections to the dog.


I currently have a dog. She was raised with traditional corrective methods from my parents that taught her nothing, and I teach her now with a clicker and she has never been a happier, more intuitive listener. I know it can differ from dog to dog, but an e-collar is not an option to me morally. An absolute last resort at most.


----------



## voodoolamb

futureluna said:


> I currently have a dog. She was raised with traditional corrective methods from my parents that taught her nothing, and I teach her now with a clicker and she has never been a happier, more intuitive listener. I know it can differ from dog to dog, but an e-collar is not an option to me morally. An absolute last resort at most.


How do you proof the commands that you teach with a clicker?

(I actually train with a clicker and proof with corrections...)


----------



## futureluna

voodoolamb said:


> How do you proof the commands that you teach with a clicker?
> 
> (I actually train with a clicker and proof with corrections...)


I've always just done a lot of repetitions, reinforcing behaviours constantly. Before meals, at random times, during a game etc. She isn't a GSD, but she just knows to come when called I guess. We don't go to highly risky off leash environments, she isn't super active as she's getting old. I don't claim to be an expert so don't think I'm saying that, I mean I'm really young. I'm sure e-collars work, I'm just quite disappointed that they are what form the basis of so much training, and I wish there were other ways. I'm sure I'd use it as a last resort for safety, but I'd honestly struggle to ever accept it.


----------



## voodoolamb

futureluna said:


> I've always just done a lot of repetitions, reinforcing behaviours constantly. Before meals, at random times, during a game etc. She isn't a GSD, but she just knows to come when called I guess. We don't go to highly risky off leash environments, she isn't super active as she's getting old. I don't claim to be an expert so don't think I'm saying that, I mean I'm really young. I'm sure e-collars work, I'm just quite disappointed that they are what form the basis of so much training, and I wish there were other ways. I'm sure I'd use it as a last resort for safety, but I'd honestly struggle to ever accept it.


What you are describing is not a solid proofing plan. 

Proofing behaviors is what gives you _reliable_ obedience. It is making sure your dog will follow your command even in those risky areas. It IS what keeps dogs safe. Proofing is what allows you to call a dog back while it is in mid chase of a cat heading straight to a busy road after your roommate leaves the back door open and the dog slips out. Life happens. Proofing dog training prevents heartache. Proofing is what allows your dog the freedom to live a happy life - not stressed and frustrated because it needs to be leashed all the time. 

I think you said in another thread that your current, less active, older dog is a spaniel? I am going to take a wild guess here that it is not a working line spaniel - but was bred to be either a pet or show dog? And this is the only dog you have personally trained? 

Pet bred spaniels tend to be very soft dogs. They do not have a lot of drive. They are WORLDS and WORLDS away from GSDs. The average well bred GSD is going to be a much harder dog than your average pet bred spaniel and waaay more drivey. Meaning just the word "No" may not be as effective for the dog. Are you familiar with what prey drive is? How it manifests in GSDs? What you need to understand is that for many dogs - fulfilling their drive instincts is intrinsically _more rewarding_ to the dog that the treat they would get. They are _not going to care_ about the cookie in your hand. Also keep in mind that a certain level of aggression is supposed to be in GSDs. They are strong and powerful dogs. They are one of the breeds you _cannot afford_ to make mistakes with or allow bad behaviors to fester in. Other people or animals can get hurt. 

Why do you wish e collars were not the basis of so much training? It is a highly versatile and accurate tool. Have you ever felt the shock from one? Have you ever watched dogs being trained 
with one properly?






Level 100 made me jump, but if I were using it on my dog for training purposes he would probably be working on a level 10 or 15 - which I can hardly even feel. 

I am not trying to convince you to strap an e collar on every dog you own throughout your life. I haven't even used an e collar on all of my dogs, But you do have quite a few misconceptions about the tool. 

I suggest taking some time to learn about drives and genetics and how that relates to dog behavior and training choices before disregarding any tools of the trade.


----------



## futureluna

voodoolamb said:


> What you are describing is not a solid proofing plan.
> 
> Proofing behaviors is what gives you _reliable_ obedience. It is making sure your dog will follow your command even in those risky areas. It IS what keeps dogs safe. Proofing is what allows you to call a dog back while it is in mid chase of a cat heading straight to a busy road after your roommate leaves the back door open and the dog slips out. Life happens. Proofing dog training prevents heartache. Proofing is what allows your dog the freedom to live a happy life - not stressed and frustrated because it needs to be leashed all the time.
> 
> I think you said in another thread that your current, less active, older dog is a spaniel? I am going to take a wild guess here that it is not a working line spaniel - but was bred to be either a pet or show dog? And this is the only dog you have personally trained?
> 
> Pet bred spaniels tend to be very soft dogs. They do not have a lot of drive. They are WORLDS and WORLDS away from GSDs. The average well bred GSD is going to be a much harder dog than your average pet bred spaniel and waaay more drivey. Meaning just the word "No" may not be as effective for the dog. Are you familiar with what prey drive is? How it manifests in GSDs? What you need to understand is that for many dogs - fulfilling their drive instincts is intrinsically _more rewarding_ to the dog that the treat they would get. They are _not going to care_ about the cookie in your hand. Also keep in mind that a certain level of aggression is supposed to be in GSDs. They are strong and powerful dogs. They are one of the breeds you _cannot afford_ to make mistakes with or allow bad behaviors to fester in. Other people or animals can get hurt.
> 
> Why do you wish e collars were not the basis of so much training? It is a highly versatile and accurate tool. Have you ever felt the shock from one? Have you ever watched dogs being trained
> with one properly?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrgTPohzjBU
> 
> Level 100 made me jump, but if I were using it on my dog for training purposes he would probably be working on a level 10 or 15 - which I can hardly even feel.
> 
> I am not trying to convince you to strap an e collar on every dog you own throughout your life. I haven't even used an e collar on all of my dogs, But you do have quite a few misconceptions about the tool.
> 
> I suggest taking some time to learn about drives and genetics and how that relates to dog behavior and training choices before disregarding any tools of the trade.


I understand, and will try to research. I just genuinely don't like the idea of causing discomfort to an animal, regardless of how much people say "its more annoying than anything", regardless of any reason behind it. But I am willing open to it in the best interest of the dog.


----------



## Bramble

futureluna if you are set on training without physical corrections then I'd recommend checking out Susan Garrett. She is a well known and successful agility trainer and competitor. She has BCs which while high drive tend to be softer than a GSD. She does not use corrections or even say no in her training, but is not passive when a dog makes a mistake. She has some books and DVD's available, but is mostly doing online courses now, she has a FB page and blog also. Training with out corrections is not just using a clicker and giving a dog treats. IMO you have to put a lot more effort in because you can not use an e-collar or training collar to fix an unwanted behavior.


----------



## Jenny720

What voodoo said proofing behaviors makes obedience reliable. I had never used an e collar in my life never had issue with dogs off leash. I was not anti e collar but just never needed to use one. Max had a high prey drive drive and not soft dog. Our recalls were without issue until it was time for distractions- feral cats or deer - which their is abundance where I live. Max also had issues as a pup with running out of open doors a dangerous thing to do. I took Max in obedience classes. I put a lot of work into him and impulse control exercises. I like Susan Garrett she was recommend to me by a few on this website. She has a free training called recallers if you sign up she gives you some free training videos and advise. This was all great and I like what she had to say but it did not work for major distractions with Max. 

To keep Max safe and other animals safe and able to enjoy being off leash in a safe way I decided to use the ecollar. It took me awhile to come to that decision. I came across a trainer who showed me how to use it. It is a great tool when used right. I was more comfortable with the ecollar with 10 dials but that is just personal preference it was just easier finding working level for me and max comfortably. I like the garmin sport. Max is just as happy as I am as he loves to make me proud plus he can enjoy his life in a safe way. We are not truly dependent on it either but that took time and I still use as backup in certain off leash situations. Not wise and incredibly limiting to be strongly against something until you try it in a responsibly way. Just something to have in the back of your mind if your are not getting to the place you want to be with all your good efforts put forth.

I now can say it's getting easy to forget some (not all)of the challenges we have overcome. There is something always to work on though that is the truth.


----------



## griz

i started early as well, using the puppies natural instinct to want to stay with the pack. Mark and reward for checking in. High reward treats for coming when called. My puppy is 6 mos old so FAR from being able to be off leash anywhere with distractions, but he will come back from chasing birds or from getting in a mud puddle. I make myself much more fun, i run the opposite direction, yell excitedly and play tug when he catches me. When I walk him with his leash with distractions I try to verbally correct and redirect him with out using the leash at all and highly reward him for staying with me. We have done MUCHO impulse training , because I have cats, so he knows the ah ah ah in a warning voice means I am watching you . Since he has a leash on in the house I am always able to reach out and touch him per sey. All that stuff carries over to eventually being off leash. I am also lucky his ball drive overrides much , so when I have his ball he will ignore everything . But its taken several weeks to hone that ( and I am sure it will wain with age and adolescence)

We have worked with his Emergency recall... something that my husband has used and worked. One day the creek was flooded , and after playing ball, the dog ( abut 5 mos) ran and JUMPED into the flooded creek ( I blame his dock diving lessons) my husband had to jump in and literally save him. After they got out and caught his breath, Spaten went to jump in again > he used the Emergency recall ( Lucky lucky lucky) repeated loud and fast and he came right away. Every few days I say it in the house and give him something he would normally never get like cat food, or something else delicious .

I am also not a huge fan of the e collars, but I would not be opposed to using one.


----------



## Tennessee

futureluna said:


> I currently have a dog. She was raised with traditional corrective methods from my parents that taught her nothing, and I teach her now with a clicker and she has never been a happier, more intuitive listener. I know it can differ from dog to dog, but an e-collar is not an option to me morally. An absolute last resort at most.


I really hope as a college student you do a better job than that of using logic and critical thinking to both explain your beliefs and analyze information presented to you.

She just told you they can or can not hurt, they have a dial on them that lets you choose how much stimulation to give. So if you stay below the threshold of pain, how the heck is that morally wrong to anyone? I'm not even going to go into the emotionally derived fallacy that causing pain is immoral in and of itself.

ETA The poster you quoted did an excellent job of explaining it but I'll say it once more. Some dogs when in drive don't listen, period. No amount of positive training can fix this behavior, period. I hope you don't get one of those dogs.


----------



## griz

Tennessee said:


> Some dogs when in drive don't listen, period. No amount of positive training can fix this behavior, period. I hope you don't get one of those dogs.



I can not stress this enough. I wanted to do pos only . Positive only is a misnomer . Here is why I say that . I went to a LLW seminar where were did partnered exercises . The handler clicked and treated when the dog was not pulling on the leash, and when the dog pulled, then released the pressure. My parnters dog hit the end of the leash and i swear to god, acted like it had been shocked.. You couldn't make that dog pull that leash tight again.
MY puppy , please,he scored a 1 out of 10 on his pain scale at 8 weeks ( meaning it took a full 10 seconds to get him to yipe when the evaluater pinched his toes). He couldn't care any less about that flat collar. No treats in the world were as exciting as my partner jumping up and down tossing a ball. 

My partners dog was severely punished hitting the end of the leash. It doesn't matter that it was a flat collar. It doesn't matter that the owner didn't mean to hurt the dog. There was NOTHING positive about allowing the dog to hurt herself like that, and make no mistake the dog felt pain... there is no other reaction that will cause such a violent response like she had. 

Mean while my puppy is just self rewarding himself barking like a fool trying to drag me across the floor. Because there was NO NEGATIVE consequences for this, the next few days I tried to implement the techniques I had learned in that 4 hour class ,my puppy had totally regressed to dragging me everywhere, barking at all dogs, and trying to jump on anyone with in a 3ft radius.

Prong+ a few coming to jesus moments where he self corrected trying to drag me across the floor and Volia he's like a brand new dog, walking by people and dogs on an index finger.


----------



## Tennessee

griz said:


> I can not stress this enough. I wanted to do pos only . Positive only is a misnomer . Here is why I say that . I went to a LLW seminar where were did partnered exercises . The handler clicked and treated when the dog was not pulling on the leash, and when the dog pulled, then released the pressure. My parnters dog hit the end of the leash and i swear to god, acted like it had been shocked.. You couldn't make that dog pull that leash tight again.
> MY puppy , please,he scored a 1 out of 10 on his pain scale at 8 weeks ( meaning it took a full 10 seconds to get him to yipe when the evaluater pinched his toes). He couldn't care any less about that flat collar. No treats in the world were as exciting as my partner jumping up and down tossing a ball.
> 
> My partners dog was severely punished hitting the end of the leash. It doesn't matter that it was a flat collar. It doesn't matter that the owner didn't mean to hurt the dog. There was NOTHING positive about allowing the dog to hurt herself like that, and make no mistake the dog felt pain... there is no other reaction that will cause such a violent response like she had.
> 
> Mean while my puppy is just self rewarding himself barking like a fool trying to drag me across the floor. Because there was NO NEGATIVE consequences for this, the next few days I tried to implement the techniques I had learned in that 4 hour class ,my puppy had totally regressed to dragging me everywhere, barking at all dogs, and trying to jump on anyone with in a 3ft radius.
> 
> Prong+ a few coming to jesus moments where he self corrected trying to drag me across the floor and Volia he's like a brand new dog, walking by people and dogs on an index finger.


Same.

I broke down and bought a prong after an extremely embarrassing trip to Petco, I wasn't opposed to them in any way but the conventional wisdom says she's too young. I train this dog in focused heeling EVERY SINGLE DAY, but if she sees another dog or person, or even if my wife just walks in front of me. She pulls like the reincarnation of Balto. With a flat collar I can pop the beejesus out of her, I can let her choke herself, I can pick her mostly off the ground by her neck, I can spank her, I can treat her. 

*None of that makes any difference longer than a couple seconds. *

But she started walking like a perfect little lady 20 seconds after her prong collar went on. Honestly, I got sick of hurting my dog and not being able to take her with me wherever I can. I went ahead and bought an ecollar too because I found a screaming deal on a 3/4 mile dogtra, and I'm going to take her camping. And as bad as she was with people and dogs, wild animals are a whole nother level of bad. And my dog isn't even *THAT* drivey/intense, fearless, or insensitive. She's actually a little less in each of those areas than I would like, I'm glad I didn't have any pre-disposed negative feelings about these tools. They're truly essential tools for the driven dog.


----------



## mariodidit

Is it possible to start training for this too early? Im about to start leash training my 3 mo GSD/Lab mix and want to tie in off-leash training.


----------



## futureluna

Tennessee said:


> I really hope as a college student you do a better job than that of using logic and critical thinking to both explain your beliefs and analyze information presented to you.
> 
> She just told you they can or can not hurt, they have a dial on them that lets you choose how much stimulation to give. So if you stay below the threshold of pain, how the heck is that morally wrong to anyone? I'm not even going to go into the emotionally derived fallacy that causing pain is immoral in and of itself.
> 
> ETA The poster you quoted did an excellent job of explaining it but I'll say it once more. Some dogs when in drive don't listen, period. No amount of positive training can fix this behavior, period. I hope you don't get one of those dogs.


Please don't assume things about me that you wouldn't know, you don't actually know me. You know absolutely nothing of my character or my skills.

I'm here for a reason, and that's to learn. As I said, I'm researching more into methods I never thought of because of the responses, but I was just initially quite shocked to hear them as a) I've had bad experiences and b) everywhere else I've asked hasn't portrayed them as 'tools' in the good sense.

I'm here for the good of the dog and to learn, so thank you for your information. I *am* listening, and researching, as I actually did clarify to the original responder


----------



## thegooseman90

Well you have to understand how it comes off when you refuse advice over and over one moral grounds. You don't know from experience so the way it comes off is bullheaded and arrogant. I don't think what the poster said was meant to be taken offensively but more as a "wake up call" of sorts. Don't limit yourself to only one training technique because as mentioned every dog is different and will require different tools. 

Some good things too, it seems like you're doing your research and becoming more open to other training methods. I read a lot more than I reply to on here and can say it's a great forum with lots of information and experience if you're open to it.


----------



## futureluna

Is this training only really necessary for GSDs? Like is it a breed specific thing?


----------



## WIBackpacker

futureluna said:


> Is this training only really necessary for GSDs? Like is it a breed specific thing?


Goodness, no.

There are many people here who either currently own, or have owned, a rainbow of other breeds. Terriers to sighthounds, labs to huskies.

In general, herding breeds are easier to train for reliable off leash behavior than many other types of dogs.


----------



## Aly

futureluna said:


> Is this training only really necessary for GSDs? Like is it a breed specific thing?


Absolutely not! The best dog-related advice I ever got was from my grandfather:_ Deal with the dog in front of you. _ The point is not to focus overmuch on breed descriptions, per se. Each dog is an individual with unique temperament, intelligence, drives, and trainability. Not all approaches will work equally well with all dogs --- even within the same breed. Then too, not all approaches will work equally well with the _same dog_, depending on the dog's age/stage (e.g., dog enters adolescence and loses its' mind for a bit...  ). 

I think it's premature to reach any conclusions about a training method one hasn't tried or with which one has had limited exposure --- particularly on what purport to be "moral" grounds. That approach risks shortchanging your own growth as well as what you might otherwise accomplish with a future dog.


----------



## Chip18

futureluna said:


> Just wondering how people teach a dog to be responsive off leash?? Certain methods, ages you should start, ways to be safe while in training??


The last question is easy to answer. Until your dog is 100% reliable ... keep them on a long line in unrestricted areas. Find a confined area to work on recall off leash. And when you get that done, recall in confined areas, start working on recall with distractions and keep a long line on the dog still ... just in case. 

You won't really know your dog is reliable off leash until you can recall with strong serious distractions. I almost lost an unofficial foster, when I allowed her out to run free with my other well trained dogs. When I was done I called every one back .... Struddell my White Boxer and Gunther my Band Dawg came back to me. Molly my herder dog neighbor throw away not so much???? 


I was freaked ... but you know stay cool, stay cool. I then sent my two out to Molly herder Dog, and then issued a recall again, that time Molly followed them back! Lesson learned don't allow a dog off leas in an unconfined space until you know they will come back.


----------



## Chip18

futureluna said:


> Is this training only really necessary for GSDs? Like is it a breed specific thing?


Hm interesting question???

I'll try and answer by first staying my core beliefs ... are kinda simple. Over all I want well behaved dogs, and beyond that "Crap Happens" and the best preparation for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog!! I train dogs to "make good choices." 

I had a "Crap Happens Situation" occur with my GSD who had clearly demonstrated under controlled conditions ... that he was not a fan of Toddlers!" I did not train the following behavior but I did train him not to bite the crap out of anyone ... only toddlers seem to get some resistance?? So no problem ... I avoid them ... but as I say ... "Crap Happens." :

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8015033-post3.html

There are lots of ways to get there and an E-Collar while not my tool of choice is the "fastest and most humane" way to train your dog That's a quote from Lou Castle, this guy a former member ....

I chose other means myself as a SLL is all I use but if I get a Deaf Boxer ... that would have to change.


----------



## futureluna

Chip18 said:


> The last question is easy to answer. Until your dog is 100% reliable ... keep them on a long line in unrestricted areas. Find a confined area to work on recall off leash. And when you get that done, recall in confined areas, start working on recall with distractions and keep a long line on the dog still ... just in case.
> 
> You won't really know your dog is reliable off leash until you can recall with strong serious distractions. I almost lost an unofficial foster, when I allowed her out to run free with my other well trained dogs. When I was done I called every one back .... Struddell my White Boxer and Gunther my Band Dawg came back to me. Molly my herder dog neighbor throw away not so much????
> 
> 
> I was freaked ... but you know stay cool, stay cool. I then sent my two out to Molly herder Dog, and then issued a recall again, that time Molly followed them back! Lesson learned don't allow a dog off leas in an unconfined space until you know they will come back.


Yep thats definitely a big fear of mine, glad you got your dog back. The long line definitely sounds like a good idea, thanks :smile2:


----------



## futureluna

Chip18 said:


> Hm interesting question???
> 
> I'll try and answer by first staying my core beliefs ... are kinda simple. Over all I want well behaved dogs, and beyond that "Crap Happens" and the best preparation for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog!! I train dogs to "make good choices."
> 
> I had a "Crap Happens Situation" occur with my GSD who had clearly demonstrated under controlled conditions ... that he was not a fan of Toddlers!" I did not train the following behavior but I did train him not to bite the crap out of anyone ... only toddlers seem to get some resistance?? So no problem ... I avoid them ... but as I say ... "Crap Happens." :
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8015033-post3.html
> 
> There are lots of ways to get there and an E-Collar while not my tool of choice is the "fastest and most humane" way to train your dog That's a quote from Lou Castle, this guy a former member ....
> 
> I chose other means myself as a SLL is all I use but if I get a Deaf Boxer ... that would have to change.


Always good to be prepared for the worst situations. My guess is training all depends on the drive of the dog? But I'm not 100%


----------



## Chip18

futureluna said:


> Always good to be prepared for the worst situations. My guess is training all depends on the drive of the dog? But I'm not 100%


Aww well ... now you've stumbled unto a broader question! Drives in Dogs ... Pro's can turn drive on and turn drive off using a Prong Collar ... it's a two edged sword ... it depends on how it's used. I used one incorrectly once so I just ditched it but that was about me. But the only I dog I owned that did not walk well on leash was the only one that I trained badly with a Prong Collar. Apparently a Slip Lead Leash was the tool for me. 


But I digress general speaking "Pet" owners have no need for "Prey Drive" if they see it at all is directed towards toys in there back yard or in there living room generally speaking ... no big deal! If I still lived in the big city ... I'd most likely never know about it?? My White Boxer Struddell was a well trained dog. Excellent recall for years and no issues. But you know she'd never been proofed ... she had never had cause to get into the Prey Drive thing for well ... four years. I'd find safe distraction free areas in the Big City to allow her to run off leash and well all was good!

But ... when I moved to NV ... open desert and Jack Rabbits to chase aplenty! WOW ... this is cool! So I actually then trained her to enter a full on "Prey Drive" state unchecked! See a Jack Rabbit and "Boom" I'm out of here!! OFF leash at distance pretty cool to watch and lot's of fun!! And then one day ... not so much!!! :surprise:

I usually parked about mile from the Hwy! Far enough and as it happened in all the months of Jack Rabbit chasing, the JR's always broke towards the Mountains, North and not the Hwy, South. But one day this one JR decided to run run towards the HWY!!! I freaked out, at thirty some odd miles per hour the Hwy was not that far away!! I called "STRRUDDELL" and I got nothing! She could not hear me ... did not care and she was off!!! In desperation and despair, I called and looked for her?? I finally gave up and went back to the car to start driving and calling and sure enough ... there she was! Full on smile and quite pleased with her self! I was not amused! 

Most likely what happened is what always happened .. the rabbits run down the straights to burn her off and that never worked!! She'd get closer and closer on the straight's to them about a Boxer length away and at that point they'd cut hard to left or right and then right back down the straight!! At that point Struddell would switch from sight to scent?? And I would watch Struddell running in the brush back and forth, trying to find the scent while the JR sailed off in the distance Boxer free! Happened all the time and she never actually caught one! But it was great to watch her try!! 

But now I fully understood I had a problem??? No recall under full on Prey Drive??? OK then ... now I know, so I went back to basics go with what she knows and what she knew well was NO! Good enough as I had no plans to leash her in open desert ... I taught her to chase rabbits to the North Mountains and not South Hwy ... off leash at distance with the use of the word NO! 


Open desert so I have line of site for miles, so I'd scan around her and when I saw a rabbit first, and then she'd see it a millisecond later. But I'd say NO! And she would freeze, if the rabbit broke North towards the Mountains I'd say OK and off she'd go. If they broke South towards the Hwy, it was Stay ... that one is gone. We'll try again ... it worked out fine. 

So it worked out fine for me but in retrospect, well no she'd never been "proofed" with distractions?? In the big city the only threat was other peoples dogs and we avoided unknown dogs like the plague ... I still do. So I never understood I had a recall problem??? But you know ... I got lucky! 

I got solid recall achieved by other means once I understood I had a problem, so yes ... it can be done tool free!! But while, I don't use an E-Collar myself ... as I understand how it's used the recall "problem" takes care of itself as a part of the "E-Collar Training??" That's just what I understand as I say ... "E-Collar" is not my thing.


----------



## voodoolamb

Chip18 said:


> Aww well ... now you've stumbled unto a broader question! Drives in Dogs ... Pro's can turn drive on and turn drive off using a Prong Collar ...


They can also turn drives on and off with toys, food, body language, their voice, and through classical conditioning to specific situations and scenarios - Depends on which drive you are talking about and what you want to achieve.

Oh. Laymen can also learn to turn drives on and off 



> But I digress general speaking "Pet" owners have no need for "Prey Drive" if they see it at all is directed towards toys in there back yard or in there living room generally speaking ... no big deal!


Unless there are small animals or children in their back yards and living rooms... many pet owners get a crash course in what prey drive is even out in the 'burbs.

and to say they have no "need" for it is ridiculous. There are benefits to training some things in drive even for PET dogs. I almost always train emergency recalls in drive because I want my E recall to be the MOST EXCITING THING EVER for my pet dogs to ensure that it is reliable. 




> But ... when I moved to NV ... open desert and Jack Rabbits to chase aplenty! WOW ... this is cool! So I actually then trained her to enter a full on "Prey Drive" state unchecked! See a Jack Rabbit and "Boom" I'm out of here!! OFF leash at distance pretty cool to watch and lot's of fun!! And then one day ... not so much!!! :surprise:
> 
> I usually parked about mile from the Hwy! Far enough and as it happened in all the months of Jack Rabbit chasing, the JR's always broke towards the Mountains, North and not the Hwy, South. But one day this one JR decided to run run towards the HWY!!! I freaked out, at thirty some odd miles per hour the Hwy was not that far away!! I called "STRRUDDELL" and I got nothing! She could not hear me ... did not care and she was off!!! In desperation and despair, I called and looked for her?? I finally gave up and went back to the car to start driving and calling and sure enough ... there she was! Full on smile and quite pleased with her self! I was not amused!


An excellent testimony as to why proofing obedience is important! Thank you 




> But now I fully understood I had a problem??? No recall under full on Prey Drive??? OK then ... now I know, so I went back to basics go with what she knows and what she knew well was NO! Good enough as I had no plans to leash her in open desert ... I taught her to chase rabbits to the North Mountains and not South Hwy ... off leash at distance with the use of the word NO!
> 
> 
> Open desert so I have line of site for miles, so I'd scan around her and when I saw a rabbit first, and then she'd see it a millisecond later. But I'd say NO! And she would freeze, if the rabbit broke North towards the Mountains I'd say OK and off she'd go. If they broke South towards the Hwy, it was Stay ... that one is gone. We'll try again ... it worked out fine.
> 
> So it worked out fine for me but in retrospect, well no she'd never been "proofed" with distractions?? In the big city the only threat was other peoples dogs and we avoided unknown dogs like the plague ... I still do. So I never understood I had a recall problem??? But you know ... I got lucky!
> 
> I got solid recall achieved by other means once I understood I had a problem, so yes ... it can be done tool free!! But while, I don't use an E-Collar myself ... as I understand how it's used the recall "problem" takes care of itself as a part of the "E-Collar Training??" That's just what I understand as I say ... "E-Collar" is not my thing.


Disclaimer: What works for one dog may not work for all. 

Some dogs will respond to vocal corrections off leash. Many will not. 

Some dogs absolutely need tools in order to achieve reliable off leash recalls. Some do not. 

Some dogs will NEVER be able to achieve a reliable recall under all possible real world situations and should never be allowed off leash in an uncontrolled environment.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

futureluna said:


> Is this training only really necessary for GSDs? Like is it a breed specific thing?


I think a lot of things are breed specific. Much research has been done to document that although there may be variations within a breed, that the differences between breeds is marked. 

One thing you will see often throughout this forum when somebody needs help with their dog is to get a trainer *that has experience with this breed.* That in itself speaks volumes to breed specificity.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

futureluna said:


> I've always just done a lot of repetitions, reinforcing behaviours constantly. Before meals, at random times, during a game etc. She isn't a GSD, but she just knows to come when called I guess. We don't go to highly risky off leash environments, she isn't super active as she's getting old. I don't claim to be an expert so don't think I'm saying that, I mean I'm really young. I'm sure e-collars work, I'm just quite disappointed that they are what form the basis of so much training, and I wish there were other ways. I'm sure I'd use it as a last resort for safety, but I'd honestly struggle to ever accept it.


@Futurelana, there was a time when I was 100% committed to positive only training and I truly believed that a prong or e collar was basically dog abuse. I would not have been as open minded as you are in this statement that you might use it as a last resort

I use e collars and prong collars now...e collars really just to get that 1000% recall because I hike offleash with my dogs all the time. I care VERY much for their wellbeing, physical, mental and emotional. I probably would never have taken someone else's word for it...my own first hand experience is what convinced me. 

I believe that people can abuse and be cruel with any tool, or the opposite is also true. If you use training tools with compassion and knowledge then I think it's fine. A person who doesn't intend to do harm still can...say a person picks up a cheap e collar with no experience in how to use it and decides to try and train their dog. Likely to be cruel, even if unintentional.


----------



## futureluna

Thecowboysgirl said:


> @Futurelana, there was a time when I was 100% committed to positive only training and I truly believed that a prong or e collar was basically dog abuse. I would not have been as open minded as you are in this statement that you might use it as a last resort
> 
> I use e collars and prong collars now...e collars really just to get that 1000% recall because I hike offleash with my dogs all the time. I care VERY much for their wellbeing, physical, mental and emotional. I probably would never have taken someone else's word for it...my own first hand experience is what convinced me.
> 
> I believe that people can abuse and be cruel with any tool, or the opposite is also true. If you use training tools with compassion and knowledge then I think it's fine. A person who doesn't intend to do harm still can...say a person picks up a cheap e collar with no experience in how to use it and decides to try and train their dog. Likely to be cruel, even if unintentional.


Thank you so much for that. I was starting to feel like a criminal just because I didn't want to use them. Definitely understand more now, about it being to do with how its used and not the device itself. I was initially very shocked, but I'll be doing more research :smile2:


----------



## selzer

Recall is a life skill. I teach it on lead. I get 100% with distractions before I consider using the term off-lead. I don't want them to think that one is optional, ever. If they are off lead and I want them to come, I will call their name, dig in my pocket, run the other way, but I do not use the COME command unless I am relatively certain they will do it and immediately, and when young that means being on-leash. Of course, if you find yourself in a life or death situation, and COME might get you out of it, say it like you expect it to happen, and chances are good that if you have been doing it on lead it will happen. Babs was 4 months old when she slipped her collar in a busy parking lot in a near-by city. I called her, she came, and I was able to connect her. 

There's no hurry to go off lead. Sure at home you should be able to keep a dog in the yard without a lead, and they will follow, stick with you, unless chasing butterflies is more fun. I whistle to mine to let them know they are getting close to the boundary and to stay in our yard, Always praise when they come. Coming to me is better than chopped liver. 

Off lead away from home? Why? Yes, I do it when I have a dog that is in the advanced training. After they are really good, I take them uptown at night. When it is quiet and we will work in parking lots and some sidewalk work off-lead. But if there are other people, other dogs, or cars, I will snap the lead on, until we've had quite a bit of experience with off-lead work.


----------



## selzer

Is 1000% better than 100%?


----------



## Chip18

voodoolamb said:


> and to say they have no "need" for it is ridiculous. There are benefits to training some things in drive even for PET dogs. I almost always train emergency recalls in drive because I want my E recall to be the MOST EXCITING THING EVER for my pet dogs to ensure that it is reliable.


Sorry if my first hand experience offends you??? 

I said I use a "SLL" only. So yeah by default I don't do what most people do and yep I hear lots of experts tell me ... I can't do what I've done??? I heard on here how Caesar, PTSS thing is crap for one ... OK then. 

I train "calmness" into dogs and unless "JQP" happens to stumble into a situation where "Prey Drive" happens to kick in?? They have no idea how or what there dog will do??? Still basics are basics full on Cat Killer??? Rescue off the street ... I got that done in 24 hour with a SLL, and yep my Jack Rabbit chasing that had I trained to chase jack rabbits automatically ... off leash at a distance ... I got that fixed still tool free! And Rocky ... our last encounter is here.:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8417545-post1.html

And that time ...he was uh ticked off! Hats off to that owner! Because while I stopped her dog ... Rocky was pretty ticked off and she ran into a 114 lbs of snarling, barking pissed off GSD and the only thing between her and a trip to the ER was the word "Stay!" Which he obeyed no E-Collar, NO Prong and off leash. 

And as for emergency recalls yeah great in theory but "crap happens!" And it's what you do first that makes a difference! Struddell's Emergency command was "Down and Stay" but that's not what I said! I tried to recall her and she could not hear me! So I screwed up but I got it down with what she already knew and understood, off leash and at a distance with the use of the word "NO!" Sorry if you find that unbelievable or offensive??? 

I don't dis E-Collars, I don't dis Prongs collars ... I have stated that I use a SLL only and I work Rescues and Shelter Dogs only! And in that world they really don't give a crap what you know or who you are ...* "They will not allow you to use those tools on there dogs!*" They will PTS ,first so you know in the real world if all these hard butt, H/A dogs end up in a local shelter and the only people that can help them can "ONLY" use a E-Collar are a Prong ... good luck with that! So You know sorry if what I do is offensive??? But as I am want to say there is always that guy/girl ... I post for them.


----------



## selzer

Chip, what does SLL stand for?


----------



## voodoolamb

> And as for emergency recalls yeah great in theory but "crap happens!"


Ummmm _emergency_ recalls are for when "crap happens". That IS their entire point.





> They will PTS ,first so you know in the real world if all these hard butt, H/A dogs end up in a local shelter and the only people that can help them can "ONLY" use a E-Collar are a Prong ... good luck with that!


Coming from an extensive rescue background myself, primarily involved with an "aggressive" breed... I have no problem with shelters and rescues putting down HA dogs. The average JQP pet adopter does not have the skills needed to manage aggression for life. They need easy dogs. And considering the fact that HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of completely stable NON AGGRESSIVE dogs are PTS every year, and the liability issues with rehoming dogs with known aggression I am not going to lose any sleep over this one. 



> So You know sorry if what I do is offensive??? But as I am want to say there is always that guy/girl ... I post for them.


The only thing I find offensive is your speaking in such absolutes when it comes to dog training when you have limited experience and completely disregard the power of genetics and drives.


----------



## Steve Strom

futureluna said:


> Thank you so much for that. I was starting to feel like a criminal just because I didn't want to use them. Definitely understand more now, about it being to do with how its used and not the device itself. I was initially very shocked, but I'll be doing more research :smile2:


Ha, I get it. Shocked-ecollars. Good one. Always focus on the behavior, not the tool. You never know what you can accomplish with different dogs. My dogs recall is 100 percent motivational. He's never not come when called. Dogs do well with clarity. Whatever the best tool or method is that makes things clear to them, that's what matters.


----------



## Chip18

selzer said:


> Chip, what does SLL stand for?


Oh so sorry ... Slip Lead Leash, my thread on Boxerforum has thousands of views but I have only received a handful of PM's on there and here from people that want to pursuit it so I help them out. One of them was here and an experienced Prong Collar user I was surprised and asked her why the interest and she said ... I want to shelter dogs. 

But I did run across a member there that actually does pretty much what I do and uses the same tool as I say ... there is always that guy/girl but apparently they tend to make less noise then I do.


----------



## voodoolamb

Steve Strom said:


> Ha, I get it. Shocked-ecollars. Good one. Always focus on the behavior, not the tool. You never know what you can accomplish with different dogs. My dogs recall is 100 percent motivational. He's never not come when called. Dogs do well with clarity. Whatever the best tool or method is that makes things clear to them, that's what matters.


Yes. This. 

Also... some behaviors take different approaches. My current boy - I never had to proof his recall with an e collar. Totally motivational as well. Totally reliable. 

Now down stays on the other hand... Hmmmppphhhhfffffffffff.


----------



## cloudpump

voodoolamb said:


> ummmm _emergency_ recalls are for when "crap happens". That is their entire point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coming from an extensive rescue background myself, primarily involved with an "aggressive" breed... I have no problem with shelters and rescues putting down ha dogs. The average jqp pet adopter does not have the skills needed to manage aggression for life. They need easy dogs. And considering the fact that hundreds of thousands of completely stable non aggressive dogs are pts every year, and the liability issues with rehoming dogs with known aggression i am not going to lose any sleep over this one.
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing i find offensive is your speaking in such absolutes when it comes to dog training when you have limited experience and completely disregard the power of genetics and drives.


----------



## Chip18

voodoolamb said:


> Ummmm _emergency_ recalls are for when "crap happens". That IS their entire point.


 Yep no doubt ... and Struddell had an Emergency Command which I failed to use! I messed up and panicked! That was "Daddy's baby girl moving away from me at 30 plus mph towards the HWY and I freaked out so yeah my bad! But I got lucky and did not lose her and we still went on our off leash in the desert and I just "NO" to stop her! So still no use of tools, I just use effectively a command she already knew how to respond to instantly! And for "us" NO meant "Stop Doing What You Are Doing!" And apparently it also meant "wait further instructions! It worked out fine. 


But I earned from that experience and when my clearly toddler aggressive GSD was confronted with the sudden appearance of a three year when he was in an out of site place and there was no handler to be found??? He chose to make an independent decision and break Place and Walk Away! I trained him not to be biting the crap out of people but I don't have kids so "NO" he was not "Proofed" with freaking kids! But apparently ... you know few dogs or not ... I train dogs to "Make Good Choices" no corrections given for breaking Place. 




voodoolamb said:


> Coming from an extensive rescue background myself, primarily involved with an "aggressive" breed... I have no problem with shelters and rescues putting down HA dogs. The average JQP pet adopter does not have the skills needed to manage aggression for life. They need easy dogs. And considering the fact that HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of completely stable NON AGGRESSIVE dogs are PTS every year, and the liability issues with rehoming dogs with known aggression I am not going to lose any sleep over this one.


 Well you know good for you that you don't lose sleep over it. In as much as they won't allow you to use a "Prong or an E-Collar" you can't help them anyway! But you know perhaps, maybe people like me could??? 




voodoolamb said:


> The only thing I find offensive is your speaking in such absolutes when it comes to dog training when you have limited experience and completely disregard the power of genetics and drives.


Aw well yep pretty much. By and large ... yes I do! I learned a lot from few. And yep ... as a matter of fact I've done things that have even stunned me??? Deer dogs come to mind! I suppose most would call it crittering?? Pulling ... sigh Boxer and yeah to be honest I'm kinda of a mutant freak with those dogs. At any rate long story short a puller and a serious Deer Chaser! As in the day before I go that ... they had to chase him down across Virgin City for chasing Deer! On we a walk the owner my friend struggling with him ...made my head hurt. I don't like to interfere with my friends and there dogs. But this ... made my head hurt. So I said let me try, I fashioned a SLL out of the leash and after a moment or two ... it was done the dog now walked fine. As we walked and talked he was explaining the Deer problem ... Deer are VA City. 

At some point we were speaking awhile and he was explaining the Deer issue, and I was explaining yeah Deer E-Collar blab blab, gonna be a problem because ... you just can't find deer on demand??? But at some point I noticed the leash was slack, as in no dog there??? WTH I looked down and saw the dog staring hard at something??? I followed his line of site across the street and
about 20 yards away, I saw not one Deer not Two Deer but three!! The dog never moved??? I was stunned and then said to Gideon "OK" and off we go ... no big deal. 

And ironically enough on Boxerforum ... I am the best proponent for GSD there!! Lot's of interest in GSD as companions for there Boxers! And I tell them "Temperament is Key in all things GSD."  


And as for my "complete disregard of the power of genetics and drives." Well you know thank you! Then I have made myself clear! With rare exception ... you don't find me in very many I want a GSD threads?? If owners can afford to spend a couple grand on there hand picked primadona puppy ... then they should not need me??? But if they don't and they have some skittish, weak nerved, fearful, dog reactive, dog aggressive dog on there hands ... I got there backs. 

All they have to do is work with the dog in front of them "and make good choices for the dog" I don't kids, I don't other dogs and I don't give crap about if my dog does not like people ... I keep people out of that dog's face! If that is acceptable for them ... then yeah been there done that and got it right! And yes sigh ... even though everyone likes to say my few dogs.

I can say "I don't care what a dogs history is because under my watch ... it won't be a problem! So NO I don't need perfect puppies/dogs I roll just fine with ever is on the end of the leash ... thank you very much. 

But you know for the record I still have not run across that game bred (Breed that shall not be mentioned) came close with a cat killer but you know ...no big deal for me ... SLL only ... thank you very much and we got'er done! As I am want to say ... there is always that guy. 

But hey rest assured if it goes wrong ... I'll post it. :


----------



## voodoolamb

Chip18 said:


> All they have to do is work with the dog in front of them "and make good choices for the dog"


This, I agree, is the most important thing. But ap big part of working the dog in front of you is taking breed characteristics, genetics, and drives into consideration.



> But you know for the record I still have not run across that game bred (Breed that shall not be mentioned) came close with a cat killer but you know ...no big deal for me ... SLL only ... thank you very much and we got'er done! As I am want to say ... there is always that guy.
> 
> But hey rest assured if it goes wrong ... I'll post it. :


Dont forget that is the breed that i have the most personal experience with. Having put CGCs on 19 fosters and a handful of agility and obedience titles on the 6 i kept as personal pets...

My experience with them is what schooled me on genetics and breed characteristics and how important it is to NEVER under estimate them. 

I have first hand experience with a well trained dog that went from cuddling with a cat to snapping its neck in less than 24 hours - because seeing a squirrel out the window pushed it into prey drive and the cat was the closest fuzzy thing that moved.

Had the owners heeded my warnings about the potential of that dog, based on its breed's characteristics, their cat wouldnt have lost it's life. As it was the dog was returned to the rescue, i formally adopted him, and with careful management and an understanding of his breed - he never hurt another animal the rest of his life. 

A dog isnt just a dog. Breed matters. Working, herding, and gun dog breeds were selected to work closely with a human partner while in drive - they tend to remain clear headed while in drive. It is completely feasible to use training to control them.

Other breeds were bred to work independently. They don't have nearly as strong as the capability to take direction in drive. Talk to husky or sight hound people. It is a common line in those communities that an off leash dog is a DEAD dog. High prey drive with low biddability equals a dog that takes off after a rabbit and does not give a rat's patootie what anyone thinks. I've seen huskies run flat out in prey getting full blasts with an e collar and still not caring. I have owned terriers that go full on red zone when in prey drive. They become blind, deaf, and dumb to anything but their aggression fixation. 

These are KNOWN breed characteristics. To ignore them is foolhardy at best and out right dangerous at worst.

If you really want to see the devastation and heartbreak ignoring a dog's potential for prey drive can do... just google "dog kills infant"


----------



## Chip18

voodoolamb said:


> This, I agree, is the most important thing. But a big part of working the dog in front of you is taking breed characteristics, genetics, and drives into consideration.


LOL well I have to give ground on that point ... "Breed Characteristics" caught me out??? Five Packs and them first stitches, with my first GSD. High rank drive and human aggression??? Neither were issues if'd ever experienced with my long life time of life with Bullys ... so yeah. 

But that was a two prong issue ... tow dogs are a pair three dog are a pack and my Male Band Dawg and my Female Boxer allowed for pretty loose structure in the home?? Things needed to change when I added Dominate Male number two to the home??? First lesson learned two dogs are a pair three dogs are a pack?? Seven months of no issues that I saw?? I did not see the freight train of trouble heading my way??? In retro spec ... I lit the fuse by De-Crate Training Rocky?? I'd never used one before why start now??? And free feeding and treats for everybody at all times and toys everywhere! 

But while all of that was just simply pretty poor management on part so not really a "Breed Characteristic" the H/A was??? That was a memorable freak out moment! But that was solved without incident or harsh corrections by keeping people out of Rocky's face ... which was new for me but whatever, worked out fine.  


. 




voodoolamb said:


> Dont forget that is the breed that i have the most personal experience with. Having put CGCs on 19 fosters and a handful of agility and obedience titles on the 6 i kept as personal pets...


Nope I have not forgot ... you and MAWL Game Breed (Breed that shall be mentioned.) You'd think being a Band Dawg I'd of been aware of them but that and the dog aggression think ... I was AWOL. I actually turned to a PRO to tell me why the Do Park thing was not really going to work out to well with Gunther??? At any rate thus was born my ignore other dogs and no Dog Parks ... worked out fine and how I roll uh always. 





voodoolamb said:


> My experience with them is what schooled me on genetics and breed characteristics and how important it is to NEVER under estimate them.
> 
> I have first hand experience with a well trained dog that went from cuddling with a cat to snapping its neck in less than 24 hours - because seeing a squirrel out the window pushed it into prey drive and the cat was the closest fuzzy thing that moved.
> 
> Had the owners heeded my warnings about the potential of that dog, based on its breed's characteristics, their cat wouldnt have lost it's life. As it was the dog was returned to the rescue, i formally adopted him, and with careful management and an understanding of his breed - he never hurt another animal the rest of his life.


 Hmmm OK, I just might have 140 lbs worth of reason to ask more about that ... perhaps a PM. I don't think Sally was a Game (Breed Breed) that should not be mentioned??? I don't know that she would have killed one of my cats. But I do know that the cats would have been terrified and we'd have crap destroyed if she would have been left to run amok indoors after them! Don't really have squirrel issue around here but I take your point. 


voodoolamb said:


> A dog isnt just a dog. Breed matters. Working, herding, and gun dog breeds were selected to work closely with a human partner while in drive - they tend to remain clear headed while in drive. It is completely feasible to use training to control them.


Working dogs are my thing, I don't really care for herder dogs all the ones I know were ill behaved people biting butt holes! But then I had one! My neighbors. BYB doggy. He was gonna take her to the pound. I said aww don't do that I'll take her and foster. And since I had one ... I trained her and I found her to be ... a pretty cool dog!!! I'd luv to have kept her but she was still listed as available and a little boy and his Mom wanted to see her. 

The walking test was the make or break and yeah of course she aced that! I'd done my job to well, we were heartbroken to see her go. I got no use for Gun Dogs ... but you never know ... I'm still a "Show me kinda guy." 


voodoolamb said:


> Other breeds were bred to work independently. They don't have nearly as strong as the capability to take direction in drive. Talk to husky or sight hound people. It is a common line in those communities that an off leash dog is a DEAD dog. High prey drive with low biddability equals a dog that takes off after a rabbit and does not give a rat's patootie what anyone thinks. I've seen huskies run flat out in prey getting full blasts with an e collar and still not caring. I have owned terriers that go full on red zone when in prey drive. They become blind, deaf, and dumb to anything but their aggression fixation.
> 
> These are KNOWN breed characteristics. To ignore them is foolhardy at best and out right dangerous at worst.
> 
> If you really want to see the devastation and heartbreak ignoring a dog's potential for prey drive can do... just google "dog kills infant"


I'll accept your word for all of the above! As I have seen the rabbit thing first hand I get it! My solution worked well in the desert for me. As it allowed me to stop her ... before the chase! But you know ... I don't have to deal with those called trees??? I would imagine they would block ones line of sight. :

We do have a couple of Huskies out here always on leash ... Sled Dogs in the desert ... strikes me as kinda uh stupid, but people do stuff???


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

Uh... Herding breeds, especially German Shepherds are the ultimate working dogs. It is their niche and specialty. It is the purpose for which were created and they are bred. Hounds and gun dogs are fine working dogs too, bred to fill a different, but valuable work venue. Other breeds of different genre aren't used much as working dogs. Many never served in that capacity in the first place with some breeds being created for entertainment and others to be pets or sit on laps.


----------



## MineAreWorkingline

I think it is insulting to our breed for somebody to dismiss it as not a working dog when no other breed serves in as many different venues since it's inception to current. No other breed compares when it comes to work.


----------



## WIBackpacker

> Chip18: Working dogs are my thing, I don't really care for herder dogs all the ones I know were ill behaved people biting [omitted]!


Wow. You must only spend time around some absolutely terrible individuals. Or "all the ones" you know are so understimulated and badly handled they're behaving completely opposite the nature for which they were bred.

All of my favorite dog breeds are the herding group and my experience has been the complete opposite of yours. 

THIS is the category of dog bred to:

- Work off leash and at varying distances
- Live and work around other valuable domestic animals
- Bond closely and live in tune with the handler
- Think and make choices while working. A beautiful balance between instinct and obedience 

It can take time, education, patience and some intuition to bring out the best in these dogs. But the raw potential for this type of companion is there, in the German Shepherd Dog.

Sorry Chip, but I find your quoted comment above very disdainful and disappointing. JMHO.


----------



## voodoolamb

WIBackpacker said:


> Wow. You must only spend time around some absolutely terrible individuals. Or "all the ones" you know are so understimulated and badly handled they're behaving completely opposite the nature for which they were bred.
> 
> All of my favorite dog breeds are the herding group and my experience has been the complete opposite of yours.
> 
> THIS is the category of dog bred to:
> 
> - Work off leash and at varying distances
> - Live and work around other valuable domestic animals
> - Bond closely and live in tune with the handler
> - Think and make choices while working. A beautiful balance between instinct and obedience
> 
> It can take time, education, patience and some intuition to bring out the best in these dogs. But the raw potential for this type of companion is there, in the German Shepherd Dog.
> 
> Sorry Chip, but I find your quoted comment above very disdainful and disappointing. JMHO.


I just wanted to say that this very eloquently sums up why finding a breeder that strives to preserve herding instincts is so important to me when puppy shopping...

Well put!


----------



## voodoolamb

Chip18 said:


> But while all of that was just simply pretty poor management on part so not really a "Breed Characteristic" the H/A was??? That was a memorable freak out moment! But that was solved without incident or harsh corrections by keeping people out of Rocky's face ... which was new for me but whatever, worked out fine.


Yep. HA would be a breed characteristic... Might have been nice to have some warning on that one? LOL 

Should have seen me with my very first DA dog. Trial by fire. Got schooled real quick. Got it done.



> Hmmm OK, I just might have 140 lbs worth of reason to ask more about that ... perhaps a PM. I don't think Sally was a Game (Breed Breed) that should not be mentioned??? I don't know that she would have killed one of my cats. But I do know that the cats would have been terrified and we'd have crap destroyed if she would have been left to run amok indoors after them! Don't really have squirrel issue around here but I take your point.


Genetics and instincts run deep and are hard to breed out... Feel free to PM and I'll give more details. 



> We do have a couple of Huskies out here always on leash ... Sled Dogs in the desert ... strikes me as kinda uh stupid, but people do stuff???


Oh god. Don't get me started. I live in the south east - hot AND humid. I always feel bad for the northern breeds.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Uh... Herding breeds, especially German Shepherds are the ultimate working dogs..


Oh well ... I am much better at dealing with a dog, then predicting them???

Admittedly my "Big Furry Dog with a Pointy Face" lacked ... specificity??? I kinda over looked the name German *Shepherd*??? :

Oh well sometimes, it's good to be wrong.


----------



## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> I think it is insulting to our breed for somebody to *dismiss it as not a working dog* when no other breed serves in as many different venues since it's inception to current. No other breed compares when it comes to work.


Oh well I'm not going to bother defending, how some chose to interpret what I've said??? But you know ... find that "quote" and I'll happily apologize.


----------



## Chip18

WIBackpacker said:


> Wow. You must only spend time around some absolutely terrible individuals. Or "all the ones" you know are so under stimulated and badly handled they're behaving completely opposite the nature for which they were bred.


Well .... yes! I don't get a lot of exposure to "responsible Dog owners. My number one priority is to keep my dogs safe and yep I achieve that by making "Snap Judgements!" Based on observable behaviour of "Breed" I see around me. And me and my dogs stay well clear of them. But to be fair ... we stay clear of any dog I do not know. Unless forced to be there by circumstances.


But nature of my job so yes ... I often see the worst of the worst! But clearly the term "Herder Dog" is broader than I understood ... I did not mean to include German ShepherdS so my bad there.

Fortunately ... none of the worst dog owners, I know. Own German Shepherds, better for the breed that they don't. Nope Queensland Heeler, Cattle Dogs and Shetland Sheepdogs. Cause you know not that large and cute ... piece of cake. 


I only have one regret from doing that (Snap Judgements) ... I could have gotten a puppy Shar Pi, out of a bad home ... my freaking neighbor. But you know ... I did not want a Cat Killer in my home. And if I had taken him ... most likely he would not have been. But I did not take him and that puppy under that owner grew to be the type of dog I thought he was going to be! I had to climb over my neighbor's fence once, to keep him as a dog from killing and further mangling my neighbors goats! 

I could have prevented that, had I taken the puppy, I did not have to keep him. I could have done what I do and turned out a well trained puppy and passed him onto an owner that cared. But I chose not to based on my own preconceived perceptions. But ... I did not take the puppy ... that was many years ago and to this day I regret doing that ... my bad. :

But his other byb "Herder" (Border Collie I think) outside only dog, and never out of the back yard. She would howl for hours non stop. And we would call animal control about her for years! She often escape her yard and came into mine and I would return her as she was not my dog.

On the last occasion, he was done ... I returned her yet again and the last time, he said to me ... "Off to the pound she goes!!" I said, "well don't do that" ... as I worked rescue I said "I'll foster her and find her a home." In as much as I did not really care for the "Breed" based on my uninformed opinion ... I accidently did a two week shutdown. 

Since she was not a breed I care for you know, not worth my time ... I figured a week or two and she'd be someone else's "problem." But you know the two weeks comes and goes and she is still with me??? Well ... this was unexpected, had she been a "Rottie, a Dobie a Breed that shall not be mentioned or derivative thereof or of course a Boxer. Her reception would have of course been well less cool. But you know she was not. So at some point after a couple weeks have passed??I start to think ... well you know if she is going to be here anyway??? Let's do this thing! And so training actually began ... and aside from one early off leash mistake, I had to send my dogs out to retrieve her ... my bad! It went astonishing well!!

Molly ... was freaking "BRILLIANT!!" OMG I was stunned amazed and impressed at her! So while other peoples "Herder Dogs" did live up to my low presumptions. Mine did not, Marilyn fell in Luv with Molly instantly but me not so much. "I'm a show me kinda guy" and over the ensuing months ... I to fill in luv. 

But alas .... while all this (changing of perception was going on, with me) Molly was still listed as available and being the tool that I can be Marilyn was slow to broach the subject of keeping her??? As I'd not said well you know kinda sorta maybe, keep her??? And when I did finally broach the subject of keeping her .... the phone rang! 

A thirteen year old had seen her online and wanted to meet her. A few months early that would have been a great phone call!! But you know based on first hand knowledge of the breed it was now met with dread???? As a foster, we had first rights to her but based on "principle" she was still, available and had still been listed as such.

So I stuck to what I said I was doing find her a new home and maybe Plan B would work?? The mom and child would think ... this dog sucks?? But no it was not going well for a dog you want to keep! Mom and child luv'd Molly and mom said OK ... looks good but one more test. Can he walk the dog ... at that point ... I knew Marilyn and I were toast! The child and Molly walked up and down the block, issue free like they'd been doing it life! 

I'd done my part to well. Molly had a new home ... Marilyn and I cried our hearts out ... that year was a very sad Christmas. 

Oh well a rather long way of saying ... I get Herder Dogs now! 




WIBackpacker said:


> All of my favorite dog breeds are the herding group and my experience has been the complete opposite of yours.


 Aww well as outlined above ... "now" I get them. But the ones I know are the worst of the worst, those Dogs and clueless owners are, not a good combo. 

My friends are former "Pug" owners and they thought "Herder" dogs would be a good idea for them??? With the Queensland and the Border Collie ... they got luck aside from well door bolting, no recall, chasing the wild horses (a kick in the head will teach them.) 

Threatening contractors, challenging cars, and other vehicles that come up the driveway and scratching the vehicle's driver doors, when they park and that is after getting in front of the vehicles! And annoying the neighbors about 80 yards away ... no recall. Contractors call them first and ask them to put the dogs away ... the owners ... think the dogs behaviour is kinda funny. And everyone ... is being silly!

But all of that while by my standards was pretty bad ... it gets worst! Dillon passed and they replace him with a Cattle dog/Border Collie mix!! And this time there luck ran out!! They actually detrained that dog! He was not a door bolter and now he is as in get out of the way or I will run you down to get outside! Bad enough by my standards but wait there's more!

This time they some how managed to get human aggression??? When I first met the dog months ago ... he was not like any of that ... my friends did that! And there reward for doing that ... now appears to be H/A??? Four bites on the owner and three on contractors!! When I had to go up there once many months ago ... the tool of a dog came after me!!! I sent him scurrying off non contact ... but still! He of course also scratched up the car door the time before. 

And when they do actually put him away to at least let people enter safely ... he has a big window that lets him view the driveway. And we came up "me" for the last time. He banged into the window so hard I thought he would crash through,barking and snarling??? Oh and the icing on the cake, when people do actually enter the house ... you'd think they would put away a dog with a known bite history??? But nope out and about he is free to pick and chose his victims at will!

Cause you know ... don't want to tell/teach "Rufus" the meaning of the "Word NO" and make better choices dog! So for "me" taking in "Molly" was a big deal, after seeing crap like that from Herder Dogs, but most likely the fact that I was so impressed with her and wanted to keep her is even more impressive! I'm a "Show Me Kinda Guy" and Molly did. I hope she's still happy. 

Oh well yet another long post ... but you know ... no one has asked before. But to be clear my "opinion" is based on my experience and observation with that breed ... nothing about being logical. Although had my lazy Pug owning friends asked me for dog recommendations, I'd have told them ...* to get another Pug.*


----------



## WIBackpacker

Chip18 said:


> Well .... yes! I don't get a lot of exposure to "responsible Dog owners. My number one priority is to keep my dogs safe and yep I achieve that by making "Snap Judgements!" Based on observable behaviour of "Breed" I see around me. And me and my dogs stay well clear of them. But to be fair ... we stay clear of any dog I do not know. Unless forced to be there by circumstances.
> 
> 
> But nature of my job so yes ... I often see the worst of the worst! But clearly the term "Herder Dog" is broader than I understood ... I did not mean to include German ShepherdS so my bad there.
> 
> Fortunately ... none of the worst dog owners, I know. Own German Shepherds, better for the breed that they don't. Nope Queensland Heeler, Cattle Dogs and Shetland Sheepdogs. Cause you know not that large and cute ... piece of cake.
> 
> 
> I only have one regret from doing that (Snap Judgements) ... I could have gotten a puppy Shar Pi, out of a bad home ... my freaking neighbor. But you know ... I did not want a Cat Killer in my home. And if I had taken him ... most likely he would not have been. But I did not take him and that puppy under that owner grew to be the type of dog I thought he was going to be! I had to climb over my neighbor's fence once, to keep him as a dog from killing and further mangling my neighbors goats!
> 
> I could have prevented that, had I taken the puppy, I did not have to keep him. I could have done what I do and turned out a well trained puppy and passed him onto an owner that cared. But I chose not to based on my own preconceived perceptions. But ... I did not take the puppy ... that was many years ago and to this day I regret doing that ... my bad. :
> 
> But his other byb "Herder" (Border Collie I think) outside only dog, and never out of the back yard. She would howl for hours non stop. And we would call animal control about her for years! She often escape her yard and came into mine and I would return her as she was not my dog.
> 
> On the last occasion, he was done ... I returned her yet again and the last time, he said to me ... "Off to the pound she goes!!" I said, "well don't do that" ... as I worked rescue I said "I'll foster her and find her a home." In as much as I did not really care for the "Breed" based on my uninformed opinion ... I accidently did a two week shutdown.
> 
> Since she was not a breed I care for you know, not worth my time ... I figured a week or two and she'd be someone else's "problem." But you know the two weeks comes and goes and she is still with me??? Well ... this was unexpected, had she been a "Rottie, a Dobie a Breed that shall not be mentioned or derivative thereof or of course a Boxer. Her reception would have of course been well less cool. But you know she was not. So at some point after a couple weeks have passed??I start to think ... well you know if she is going to be here anyway??? Let's do this thing! And so training actually began ... and aside from one early off leash mistake, I had to send my dogs out to retrieve her ... my bad! It went astonishing well!!
> 
> Molly ... was freaking "BRILLIANT!!" OMG I was stunned amazed and impressed at her! So while other peoples "Herder Dogs" did live up to my low presumptions. Mine did not, Marilyn fell in Luv with Molly instantly but me not so much. "I'm a show me kinda guy" and over the ensuing months ... I to fill in luv.
> 
> But alas .... while all this (changing of perception was going on, with me) Molly was still listed as available and being the tool that I can be Marilyn was slow to broach the subject of keeping her??? As I'd not said well you know kinda sorta maybe, keep her??? And when I did finally broach the subject of keeping her .... the phone rang!
> 
> A thirteen year old had seen her online and wanted to meet her. A few months early that would have been a great phone call!! But you know based on first hand knowledge of the breed it was now met with dread???? As a foster, we had first rights to her but based on "principle" she was still, available and had still been listed as such.
> 
> So I stuck to what I said I was doing find her a new home and maybe Plan B would work?? The mom and child would think ... this dog sucks?? But no it was not going well for a dog you want to keep! Mom and child luv'd Molly and mom said OK ... looks good but one more test. Can he walk the dog ... at that point ... I knew Marilyn and I were toast! The child and Molly walked up and down the block, issue free like they'd been doing it life!
> 
> I'd done my part to well. Molly had a new home ... Marilyn and I cried our hearts out ... that year was a very sad Christmas.
> 
> Oh well a rather long way of saying ... I get Herder Dogs now!
> 
> 
> Aww well as outlined above ... "now" I get them. But the ones I know are the worst of the worst, those Dogs and clueless owners are, not a good combo.
> 
> My friends are former "Pug" owners and they thought "Herder" dogs would be a good idea for them??? With the Queensland and the Border Collie ... they got luck aside from well door bolting, no recall, chasing the wild horses (a kick in the head will teach them.)
> 
> Threatening contractors, challenging cars, and other vehicles that come up the driveway and scratching the vehicle's driver doors, when they park and that is after getting in front of the vehicles! And annoying the neighbors about 80 yards away ... no recall. Contractors call them first and ask them to put the dogs away ... the owners ... think the dogs behaviour is kinda funny. And everyone ... is being silly!
> 
> But all of that while by my standards was pretty bad ... it gets worst! Dillon passed and they replace him with a Cattle dog/Border Collie mix!! And this time there luck ran out!! They actually detrained that dog! He was not a door bolter and now he is as in get out of the way or I will run you down to get outside! Bad enough by my standards but wait there's more!
> 
> This time they some how managed to get human aggression??? When I first met the dog months ago ... he was not like any of that ... my friends did that! And there reward for doing that ... now appears to be H/A??? Four bites on the owner and three on contractors!! When I had to go up there once many months ago ... the tool of a dog came after me!!! I sent him scurrying off non contact ... but still! He of course also scratched up the car door the time before.
> 
> And when they do actually put him away to at least let people enter safely ... he has a big window that lets him view the driveway. And we came up "me" for the last time. He banged into the window so hard I thought he would crash through,barking and snarling??? Oh and the icing on the cake, when people do actually enter the house ... you'd think they would put away a dog with a known bite history??? But nope out and about he is free to pick and chose his victims at will!
> 
> Cause you know ... don't want to tell/teach "Rufus" the meaning of the "Word NO" and make better choices dog! So for "me" taking in "Molly" was a big deal, after seeing crap like that from Herder Dogs, but most likely the fact that I was so impressed with her and wanted to keep her is even more impressive! I'm a "Show Me Kinda Guy" and Molly did. I hope she's still happy.
> 
> Oh well yet another long post ... but you know ... no one has asked before. But to be clear my "opinion" is based on my experience and observation with that breed ... nothing about being logical. Although had my lazy Pug owning friends asked me for dog recommendations, I'd have told them ...* to get another Pug.*


Chip. I stand by what I said. 

On this forum, the collective membership acknowledges a difference between "backyard bred" and purpose bred German Shepherds. It is fitting and fair to extend that perspective to other breeds. 

If your interactions with cattledogs and border collies have been limited to a random sampling of dogs that are probably questionably bred, under-exercised and under-utilized....

You have yet to meet REAL ambassadors of herding dogs.


----------



## Chip18

voodoolamb said:


> Yep. HA would be a breed characteristic... Might have been nice to have some warning on that one? LOL


Aww well in retrospect I suppose so. Going from my Band Dawg who also luv'd people (but get a grip on himself) and my People are the next best thing to baked Boxer. To company in the home being met with a hard stare and a low growl was uh ... quite startling to me!!??? 

But had I been informed of that "possibility" someone might have also suggested that I uh don't de-crate him??? Sounds boring ... my way was lots more exciting! Worked out well in the long run but yeah not the best way to learn. But you know "now" I have better understanding of what not to do. Rocky made me well me. Worked out fine in the long run ...no stranger involvement. 



voodoolamb said:


> Should have seen me with my very first DA dog. Trial by fire. Got schooled real quick. Got it done.


Gunther my Band Dawg was also D/A. He is what I wanted and what I got but somehow in the first research I actually did ... I missed that detail??? It was only when I discovered that my Dog Park did not seem to be a great idea (never actually) got there because I saw something going on here???

I was actually concerned enough to seek a Pro. He said not Dog Aggressive but Dominate Male Dog??? I did not fully understand but good enough ... he was a "PIA" around other dogs so no Dog Parks and ignore other dogs it is. Worked out fine ... and that became a way of life with my dogs. But it always self preservation San Jose in early 2000 lots of Band Dawgs to be found and those owners my not be concerned about making there dogs problems someone else's problem!! 

I had zero interest in getting in the middle of a DOg Park dust up with dogs like mine!



voodoolamb said:


> Genetics and instincts run deep and are hard to breed out... Feel free to PM and I'll give more details.


I will take you up on that. I'm gonna assume ... you don't have weight limit. I don't know what the future will hold but I will say that "Rocky" at 114 lbs ... would not have seemed like a large Dog! And cats maybe an issue, as the saying goes ... "A man's got to know his limits." :




voodoolamb said:


> Oh god. Don't get me started. I live in the south east - hot AND humid. I always feel bad for the northern breeds.


LOL yeah out here we have "Dry Heat" and it's been 99 to 102 (very briefly) as in 30 minutes or less for weeks. 

But one of my PCA clients has friends that live in AZ and every year they come here to get away from the heat of AZ??? So I asked because you know it's been hot here as of late, so this is better??? And he said "yes" try 110 to 117 for weeks on end???? 

And the temps crash at sun down 90 then 80 and down from there it was briefly "chilly this morning but it's 80 now indoors and out. I'm not a Polar Bear Swamp Cooler no AC and the Swamp Cooler is off. So I'm good with it! 

The South I'm from VA is beautiful but I can't handle the humidity! The husky get walked in the early morning did not any where still out here???


----------



## Chip18

WIBackpacker said:


> Chip. I stand by what I said.
> 
> On this forum, the collective membership acknowledges a difference between "backyard bred" and purpose bred German Shepherds. It is fitting and fair to extend that perspective to other breeds.
> 
> If your interactions with cattledogs and border collies have been limited to a random sampling of dogs that are probably questionably bred, under-exercised and under-utilized....
> 
> You have yet to meet REAL ambassadors of herding dogs.


UH yeah ... I kinda thought I acknowledged that??? I'm impressed by well behaved dogs "regardless of Breed." I just don't go out of my way to meet them ... my bad.


----------



## WIBackpacker

Chip18 said:


> UH yeah ... I kinda thought I acknowledged that??? I'm impressed by well behaved dogs "regardless of Breed." I just don't go out of my way to meet them ... my bad.





> Chip18: Working dogs are my thing, I don't really care for herder dogs all the ones I know were ill behaved people biting [omitted]!


Fair enough. I do hope you come across some good dogs that sway your opinion.


----------



## Thecowboysgirl

I have a story for you guys about herding dogs. Sometime this month I was boarding two dogs, an Aussie and a golden. Golden not terribly bright. I was walking them along a nature trail and the Golden hung back and when I turned to see what he was doing, he appeared to be eating or preparing to eat something. I called him which did nothing, and I yelled don't eat that! and started jogging back. The Aussie glances up at me, and I can see in his face he totally understands the whole interaction,and. is telling me something (I got this) He charges down to the Golden WAY faster than I could, and gives him a little body check with his shoulder. He herds the golden back a few feet and even barked at him for good measure, glancing at me every so often.

He absolutely understood the slow human wouldn't get there in time but he could, so he handled it with freakish intelligence and the perfect skill, the Golden was not upset in the least...the Aussie immediately stood down when I arrived.

I have had a similar experience with a GSD but this thing with the Aussie was pretty darn cool.

it's also possible I've been up here on the mountain with the dogs too long and i'm losing my marbles, but I don't think so.


----------



## voodoolamb

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I have a story for you guys about herding dogs. Sometime this month I was boarding two dogs, an Aussie and a golden. Golden not terribly bright. I was walking them along a nature trail and the Golden hung back and when I turned to see what he was doing, he appeared to be eating or preparing to eat something. I called him which did nothing, and I yelled don't eat that! and started jogging back. The Aussie glances up at me, and I can see in his face he totally understands the whole interaction,and. is telling me something (I got this) He charges down to the Golden WAY faster than I could, and gives him a little body check with his shoulder. He herds the golden back a few feet and even barked at him for good measure, glancing at me every so often.
> 
> He absolutely understood the slow human wouldn't get there in time but he could, so he handled it with freakish intelligence and the perfect skill, the Golden was not upset in the least...the Aussie immediately stood down when I arrived.
> 
> I have had a similar experience with a GSD but this thing with the Aussie was pretty darn cool.
> 
> it's also possible I've been up here on the mountain with the dogs too long and i'm losing my marbles, but I don't think so.


Herders are the best. 

Years ago when I was first learning to work dogs on livestock, I made some really dumb mistakes. Like forgetting to open the gate out of the yard. Our bitch saw that the herd couldn't go where it was supposed to so she left them to give me an earful AND nip me until I opened the gate. :laugh:


----------



## selzer

Well, there could be a reason that herding dogs can have an edge to them. They have to move numbers (not three or four like trials), but 150 or more large animals. And they use their brain, their brawn, their eyeballs, and their teeth to do this, depending on the type of herding dog and the type of critter being herded. 

They have to have physical athleticism and energy to do the work day in and day out for maybe 12-14 hours a day. A dog that is capable of this kind of work, might not do well if brought into the suburbs and expected to spend 10, 12, 14 hours in a box. And because of his intelligence, he should act like a perfect gentleman the rest of the time. Some of them will go stir-crazy with no outlet for the energy, drive and intelligence that they possess. 

They are bred to be able to follow commands and do a job that is somewhat independent. Yes the shepherds are out there, but a lot of the time the dog has to figure out how to move the sheep on its own. If you take a strong, energy-filled dog, with good intelligence, and a necessary streak of independence, and give it to a limp-noodle of a handler who thinks exercise equals a walk around the block three times a week, and you can very well create a dog that is a bit of a danger to those around him. Add to that the drive and instinct to herd, and that some herders, like heelers use their teeth freely to move cows and such. 

Now add the courage and confidence these animals must have to do their job, simply as a herder, not to mention a flock guardian, or the dual purpose herder/guardian, 

Add it all up, and yes, you have the making of a complete jerk of a dog in the wrong hands. All in all, I think German Shepherd Dogs are one of the easier breeds to bring off the farm and adapt to living in the city or suburbs. I think that going into it, a lot of people, perhaps most realize their pup will be large and formidable when full grown, and that training their dog is probably a necessity. I think with some of the smaller herding breeds this gets neglected. People just get a border collie pup, or a corgi or a Australian Shepherd, or a cattle dog, or any of the others, and don't worry about problems until they crop up. 

A border collie moves the sheep with their eyes. A cattle dog uses their teeth. I want to say GSDs use their presence to do it for the most part. Yes, they may have to resort to their teeth with a problem critter. But for the most part, they move them just by being a large predator/canine. And sheep and cows, and probably other farm critters do recognize the dogs and get used to them, but they also respect a good dog. 

I think the shepherd's brand of herding takes less overall energy than say a border collie. They tend to be less yappy than shelties and corgies, less bitey than heelers, less energetic thatn mals and border collies and dutch shepherds. Yeah, I think we got the best of the herders. And it seems so many people cannot even manage them sufficiently.


----------



## tim_s_adams

My 2 cents...

I've had a few GSDs, and did not have access to e-collars...so I relied on the old school method...I became their worst nightmare, not PC these days, but it clearly established me as alpha. Other than those few incidences, I'm a total teddy bear, and prefer my commands to a dog be mere whispers. So without fail my dogs always listened and obeyed...period. I've taken in only rescues previously...the youngest was 10 months, the oldest was several years. Never had, nor will I tolerate a dog that is inappropriately aggressive. And when I say that, I mean after training. 

These things being said, I totally agree with the idea that e-collars are a great tool. Not a go-to option always, but another tool in the toolbox that can get your dog where they need to be much faster and with less trauma than you can achieve using other methods.


----------



## ksotto333

Referring to the initial question, we started day one at home. Neither of our dogs have ever been leashed or contained at home. We live in town, 3 houses from the High School football stadium so often a lot of foot traffic, and very active with walkers and bicyclists. Our yard is fenced on 3 sides but open to the street via the drive, so off leash obedience and recall is very important. Just this am I let the dogs out as they headed to the back they scared up a rabbit that bolted down the drive. Della gave full chase, I looked at her, called her name once and pointed out back. Brakes on, and she turned and went where directed. I've seen both dogs in full flight after a rabbit skid to a stop when they hit the front line of the house, the point they aren't allowed to cross. They will also hold a stay while a rabbit walked less then 5 feet away from them. It just took constant working with them, it was much easier for Dell since Tessa was already trained when she arrived as a pup.


----------



## wombat

I came here because I am constantly getting comments from other walkers (in the UK) toward my 15 week old male pup: "haven't you got him off lead yet?"

I have a private trainer for him who comes to my house every fortnight, she says he's ahead of the curve and I should stop being so strict with him and expecting too much around distraction (it just makes the distraction more novel whilst he's a pup and so excitable, as I understand it).

So when people ask my why he's still on the lead I point to him, as he's straining on his lead to get at their dog and say "Chuck, here!".

I might as well be calling to him from Mars.

From what I've read here, my issue seems to be proofing as he's 95% when it's just the two of us - I'm a real proud dad!

I'm interested to see how people are using corrections without making themselves unappealing for recall. I've noted the comments about an e-collar but, as a novice I'm reluctant to get one until I've been trained properly and I'd like to see if there's a softer solution before I escalate.

So...

1) what correction methods are people using and what is this "come to Jesus"?. How do you yell at the dog yet maintain attractiveness?
2) am I expecting proofing behaviour too early in a 15week old pup?

Many thanks for the educational contributions so far - I'll be discussing with my trainer!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## dogma13

@wombat your pup is way too young to expect a 100% reliable recall.At his young age there are so many situations that overwhelm all of his senses to the point where he isn't able to filter them out,ignore,and focus on you.He's nowhere near ready for proofing,which can't take place until you've practiced his recall many times,adding distractions and new situations little by little.Corrections are only given when a dog THOROUGHLY understands what a command means but decides to ignore.
If you want to let him off leash to explore or play,just go to him when it's time to leash him up again.If you suspect he may run and invite you to chase him,if you run the other way while enticing him with a happy voice,treats,toys,whatever works,that is still a successful recall.


----------



## wombat

dogma13 said:


> @wombat your pup is way too young to expect a 100% reliable recall.At his young age there are so many situations that overwhelm all of his senses to the point where he isn't able to filter them out,ignore,and focus on you.He's nowhere near ready for proofing,which can't take place until you've practiced his recall many times,adding distractions and new situations little by little.Corrections are only given when a dog THOROUGHLY understands what a command means but decides to ignore.
> If you want to let him off leash to explore or play,just go to him when it's time to leash him up again.If you suspect he may run and invite you to chase him,if you run the other way while enticing him with a happy voice,treats,toys,whatever works,that is still a successful recall.


Thank you - I'll keep that in mind. It's a relief to know that I'm not holding him back (metaphorically speaking)!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk


----------



## NerdicEclipse

wombat said:


> I'm interested to see how people are using corrections without making themselves unappealing for recall. I've noted the comments about an e-collar but, as a novice I'm reluctant to get one until I've been trained properly and I'd like to see if there's a softer solution before I escalate.


Also, just so you're aware - remote collars have more than just an aversive side. Most have the static shock that people think of immediately, but also a pressure on/pressure off vibrate with an adjustable scale and a tone that may or may not have adjustable volume depending on the kit you buy. You can absolutely use a remote collar for training without EVER sending a shock through it. I wouldn't even touch that aspect of it personally until the dog is old enough and absolutely knows what is being asked but elects to ignore it. Not when they're overwhelmed or distracted, but actively choosing to disobey. Physical discomfort or aversives should only be used if the dog is old enough and is fully aware of what's expected but actively choose to ignore you or pretend it's "opposite day". And even then some would say, should only be used if there's a present threat to the dog's safety and recall cannot wait or is non-negotiable.

So, for example. With Minka when I started working more on her long range off leash recall with distractions, I used her remote collar. When she was distracted or dilly dallied about coming back to me, I'd send a message with the tone, or a light vibration if she ignored the tone to let her know I meant now, not after the butterflies fly off. Never shocked her with it once. It never scared her since I properly introduced it. She simply got a message and said "Oh yeah, my dad is telling me to come back" and she was promptly rewarded with a treat. Naturally you never, ever punish a dog when you call it back. Whether it runs immediately or takes 5 minutes. Coming to you should ALWAYS be the best thing ever even if they just destroyed something or really ticked you off.

Like any tool you can send the message without causing the dog any distress or pain of any kind. Just like say, a prong collar. When used properly there is zero pain, zero stress and just a short, simple, easily understood message to the dog when it needs it. Tools are tools. You use them to have a conversation with your dog that goes beyond your voice or the offer of reward. They're only frightening or abusive when misused or properly used but in the wrong way.


----------



## Slamdunc

Chip18 said:


> Hm interesting question???
> 
> I'll try and answer by first staying my core beliefs ... are kinda simple. Over all I want well behaved dogs, and beyond that "Crap Happens" and the best preparation for the unexpected ... is a well trained dog!! I train dogs to "make good choices."
> 
> I had a "Crap Happens Situation" occur with my GSD who had clearly demonstrated under controlled conditions ... that he was not a fan of Toddlers!" I did not train the following behavior but I did train him not to bite the crap out of anyone ... only toddlers seem to get some resistance?? So no problem ... I avoid them ... but as I say ... "Crap Happens." :
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/8015033-post3.html
> 
> *There are lots of ways to get there and an E-Collar while not my tool of choice is the "fastest and most humane" way to train your dog That's a quote from Lou Castle, this guy a former member ....*
> 
> I chose other means myself as a SLL is all I use but if I get a Deaf Boxer ... that would have to change.


I really disagree with the part in bold. I'd really like to see some of the dogs he has trained?


----------



## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> I really disagree with the part in bold. I'd really like to see some of the dogs he has trained?


I assume you're referring to "Who Pet's my puppy or dog??" If so no problem ... you're not the first "Pro" that has expressed an object to whole of the article!??

Vague hints and innuendos don't really work for me?? I take what I need, I don't really care about the rest. But only "Lou Castle" ( a former member who is no longer here to defend himself) bothered to explain to me his objections to the "totality of the article" and I took note. Save for the people part ... I don't really care about the rest and anyone that is that considered about the rest ... is free to PM me and that's what I tell them. 

And as you said ... first hand experience, so you know ... "Who Pets" it is for me ... time and time again. Works out fine for me and dogs with "people Issues" that others struggle with ... I have no problem with. 

For me ...if a dog is not 100% Boxer safe with people ... good enough ... I take them at their word and I keep people out that dogs face! Works out fine, as for Frawley's dogs and what they can or cannot do in the real world ... not my thing??? 

And as for the people part of "Who Pets" it's what I did anyway ... except instead of always saying yes with a "people Friendly Dog" to my I pet ... what if I said no, worked out fine. 

I will note for the record that in that same post there is also ... https://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/2...or-working-with-fearful-dogs-by-nicole-wilde/

Pretty much ... the same thing ... just saying. 

So "fearful or aggressive" I don't know nor do I care??? Either one is capable of bitting the crap out of someone if given the chance ...that's all I need to know. I keep people out of that's dog face ... good enough. Others are of course free to do as they see fit, with their "People Unpredictable Dogs." 

I keep it simple and sigh as of two weeks ago ... 100% proofed ... Rocky never bit anyone in his life, good enough.


----------



## Slamdunc

@Chip,
Sorry, but you missed it. 

I disagree with the statement that "_an *E-Collar* while not my tool of choice *is the "fastest and most humane" way to train your dog* That's a quote from Lou Castle,
_
While I have been using E collars for over 20 years and have trained a lot of dogs successfully in sport and work, I do not believe for one second that an E collar is the fastest and most humane way to train a dog. Especially, the way Lou Castle trains dogs. I would never use his approach, I don't like it, nor do I think it is effective or faster than other far better methods. 

I'd like to see a few of the dogs that Lou Castle has supposedly trained and what they can do. He is not a trainer that I would ever recommend to anyone. The reason is, I have actual hands on experience working with dogs. Chip, I've said it before and I'm going to say it again; be very careful recommending techniques or trainers that you do not have first hand experience with or fully understand. I didn't mention Frawley, you did, but I would put them both in the same category, "guys that are better at typing on the internet that training dogs." 

I was commenting directly on the part of your post that I bolded. Nothing vague and no innuendos, I was pretty clear. I have no idea what the rest of your post refers too?


----------



## Chip18

Slamdunc said:


> @Chip,
> Sorry, but you missed it.
> 
> I disagree with the statement that "_an *E-Collar* while not my tool of choice *is the "fastest and most humane" way to train your dog* That's a quote from Lou Castle,
> _
> While I have been using E collars for over 20 years and have trained a lot of dogs successfully in sport and work, I do not believe for one second that an E collar is the fastest and most humane way to train a dog. Especially, the way Lou Castle trains dogs. I would never use his approach, I don't like it, nor do I think it is effective or faster than other far better methods.
> 
> I'd like to see a few of the dogs that Lou Castle has supposedly trained and what they can do. He is not a trainer that I would ever recommend to anyone. The reason is, I have actual hands on experience working with dogs. Chip, I've said it before and I'm going to say it again; be very careful recommending techniques or trainers that you do not have first hand experience with or fully understand. I didn't mention Frawley, you did, but I would put them both in the same category, "guys that are better at typing on the internet that training dogs."
> 
> I was commenting directly on the part of your post that I bolded. Nothing vague and no innuendos, I was pretty clear. I have no idea what the rest of your post refers too?


LOL ... my bad ... I just made an "assumption" as I did state. I knew .. I should have asked first before replying ... but you know ... not my style. :

You have/had an issue with "Lou" I did not ... I took him at his word and if he states "all the information anyone anyone needs to know to properly train their dog on an E-Collar is available for "Free" on my site. That's good enough for me and "apparently his site does work for others as ... I've been told. Personally, I found his info on E-Collar info a bit much for me?? But "apparently" it works fine for others, Good enough.  

But hey you are correct ... I completely missed the part in Bold ... my bad?? I suppose I am "still" the poster child for "Does Not Play With Others?"? I'm just not a "Dog Park" kinda guy ... my bad ... still?? :e:


----------



## cliffson1

The only off leash training I do before a dog is fully trained ON leash, ( which is shaping with use of food) is either in my yard or at training field with absolutely no distractions present. I need total focus from dog, since I won't have correction as option and some distractions are stronger attraction to dog than food. Other than shaping as puppy, I don't consider off leash training until dog is at least a year old and reliable on leash.


----------



## selzer

Some things you can't take back. 

One night, years ago, I started working with Rushie up town, and he went after a cat. I whistled and called, and finally he came back. He was about a year old, and he did know better, but he wasn't ready to be off-lead in an unsafe location. Had it not been 2AM and totally dead out, I could have lost him to a car or anything. I wouldn't have been able to take that back. 

Yes, I walk Babsy without a leash. She is 12. We've been doing this for probably 5 years, maybe longer, but she is the kind of obedience dog that at 1 year, we went all the way around the Rally ring with the leash looped around her ear. I did not know whether I could touch her to fix it. So I just went ahead and there it stayed. She is actually one of those dogs that is more attentive with the leash off than on. She and her mother Arwen were both able to go through a drunk crowd outside the bar off-lead, could both be called off a rabbit or squirrel with a word. Both were ok in crowds, parades, running alongside a bicycle, pretty much anywhere. 

But, with my youngsters, it just isn't worth it. Yes, they can go out in my front yard without collar or lead, (all but Cujo2). But mostly they are predictable and will just go for the car. All of them do know the boundaries of the yard. 

Of course with the horse incident... Somethings you can't take back. If Cujo2 got kicked in the head or if he caused the horse to throw his rider, we would have been in a world of hurt.


----------

