# Can martingale collars damage the trachea?



## Mike90210

I have an 8 month old boy, who currently is in the "butthead" stage. I recently purchased a martingale and usually give it a tug when he is jumping on people or chasing things he shouldn't be. It is the regular nylon type, not a pinch collar. A few times he has stopped and gagged from me tugging too hard. I would say it's happened 5 times, when I unintentionally tugged too hard and choked him.

I was told by a neighbor that she knew of a former race dog (her friend adopted), that had permanent trachea damage from the training. But I think it was from an actual pinch collar. I freaked out.

I try to apply just enough force, but sometimes he is stubborn


----------



## Stosh

Never used one, I used a prong collar during that stage. I saw on dogs.com a cushioned collar that protects the trachea no matter what kind of training collar you use.


----------



## Jax's Mom

The prong is probably the safest to avoid trachea damage... Most flat, choker or martingale collars just clothesline their trachea, the prong seems to be the only one that evenly distributes the pressure... There is a study somewhere on the web which documented the occurrences of damage with each collar. I just remember the prong doing the best so until my dog is trained enough to wear just a flat collar, I'll be sticking with the prong no matter how "cruel" it looks to people who don't even own a dog


----------



## Mom2Shaman

If a martingale is properly fitted, it will not close enough to choke, only to press lightly on the sides. I used cetacea brand which is nylon web/chain. They should be adjusted so that when they are fully pulled, it should just barely squeeze the sides enough to be of notice but not enough to be damaging or unduly painful. You have the collar too tight when hanging loose so that when you pull it closed it will choke. Also, if you look at most of the hounds that martingales were designed for, they have a regular collar with ID tags higher up on the neck and the martingale is then seated lower on the neck and not up in the throat/trachea region. I have used martingales on my dogs for the past few years and find they are a great option for limited pinch, near impossibility to pull out of, a way to also wear our collar with ID while walking, and a way to elevate the leash slightly at the clip point to help reduce leash getting under the legs. I like them a lot. I think yours is adjusted too tight.


----------



## Jax's Mom

Here is what I was looking for:
Prong Collar Info


> A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
> 
> 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
> The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
> Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
> Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.
> The numbers seem to speak for themselves.
> (Information about above study taken from an Anne Marie Silverton Seminar)


...does't exactly speak about martingales, but I'd imagine it's a similar tool...


----------



## DunRingill

A problem with the prong collar "study" supposedly done in Germany is, no one can find PROOF of this study. It's been quoted for years, to the point that it is considered to be a fact. I first saw this in around 1986. But no one can find anything about the actual study. We've tried!! Citations, who did the study, etc. 

The study is often quoted by people justifying use of a prong, and by people who are anti-choke collar. I'm very interested in facts but at this point I'm pretty sure the "study" was made up. In any case I use either collar, depending on the dog and situation.


----------



## Jax's Mom

DunRingill said:


> A problem with the prong collar "study" supposedly done in Germany is, no one can find PROOF of this study. It's been quoted for years, to the point that it is considered to be a fact. I first saw this in around 1986. But no one can find anything about the actual study. We've tried!! Citations, who did the study, etc.
> 
> The study is often quoted by people justifying use of a prong, and by people who are anti-choke collar. I'm very interested in facts but at this point I'm pretty sure the "study" was made up. In any case I use either collar, depending on the dog and situation.


Hm... You seem to be right. I just assumed it made sense and never questioned it seeing as the last 10 dogs I have had, I always put off using a prong and end up going back to them after the dogs neck gets all ripped up from pulling, and no one argued the quotes in any of the places I saw it posted... 

...but there's only one way to find out 
[email protected]
Highland Border Collies


----------



## Jax08

Any collar can cause damage. If a martingale, or non-slip, collar is properly fitted AND properly used, then No, it should not cause trachea damage. A regular flat collar can cause trachea damage if used improperly.

One thing that should be noted, is if you are using leash corrections, you could be pulling your dogs neck out of alignment. Personally, I would be just as concerned about this as trachea damage. 

If he is in mid jump, or taking off to chase something, then I think there could be enough momentum to cause damage either way. What other training methods are you using to work on this? Making him sit before someone approaches? Rewarding him for not breaking the sit? Teaching him Leave It?


----------



## Mom2Shaman

That is very true about corrections. My older dogs were not dashers, pullers, or jumpers. My pup is young enough to not really have the weight behind him to get a running jump/yank. I would not suggest trying to correct mid-jump with a martingale or regular collar as that really could pull the neck out of alignment. As for regular walking and activity, a martingale cannot entirely be compared to a choke as is cannot get too tight IF PROPERLY adjusted or seated on the neck.


----------



## Mike90210

thanks for the replies. I wasn't aware of the possibility of misaligning the neck. How would you know if the dog had trachea damage and/or neck issues? Anything that would stand out to a regular person?

He is a GREAT dog overall and obedient. Just gets stubborn sometimes. I think you guys are right about having the collar too tight. I went to give a very mild correction today and he chocked for a second. I will loosen it tonight


----------



## selzer

Jax's Mom, the martingale collar IS a prong collar without the prongs -- that is exactly what it is. It has the same type of chain (some of them use fabric) closure that a prong does in the back. It pulls evenly and if fitted properly, should NEVER choke the dog. 

The older martingales, could not choke the dog because they fitted over the head and had to have enough room. But now there are martingales with a clip to put them on and off easy. I use them, nothing wrong with them, but you can hook them too tight and when you pull on it, it will restrict the airway. 

The answer is, this is NOT a correction collar. It is the absolute safest collar for puppies because it is a flat collar that will distribute the pressure around the neck, but does not allow the pup to slip the collar. I use them on all my dogs and nothing else. There is NO way that a prong collar would be better/safer from the dog's perspective. A prong collar is a correction collar and it can give the handler more leverage and may be more safe if you do not have good control over the dog. 

For puppies it should not be necessary, but there are so many variables with how the pup was raised, drives, training, energy level, etc, that some older pups might benefit from one where others do not ever need one. 

If the site was poled, I would imagine Prong Collars would come out as the collar of choice, but I do not think it is the best collar for all dogs, and I do not think it is any safer for the dog than a martingale, in fact, I figure the martingale is safer, unless the dog is completely unmanageable.


----------



## Jax's Mom

My dog is 80% of my body weight... physics dictates that if he wants to run in front of a car, unless I have some really compelling reason why he shouldn't (like prongs digging into his neck the harder he tries), that's where he will go.
A martingale works for our lab because she's 40lbs and she couldn't drag me if her life depended on it, but for the safety of everybody involved, I wouldn't like to rely solely on my ability to "control" my dog if the situation ever arose. 
It would almost be like suggesting only people who can't control their dog need a fenced yard.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

*Softouch Concepts*

Welcome to the Frontpage - Cached
The SENSE-ible™ _harness_ is the same patented design at a lower cost. Learn More >>. Matching leashes for _SENSE_-_ation_™ and. SENSE-ible™ _harnesses_. *...

**Easy Walk Harness Product Description - Premier Pet*

Premier Pet › Dogs › Products › Behavior and Training - Cached
Still can't decide if you should purchase the _Gentle Leader_® or the Easy Walk *...* All the great _no_-_pull_ benefits of an Easy Walk _Harness_, now with the added *...

*Are two of the no pull harnesses that might be of interest to you though as stated martingales are good, safe collars to use.


----------



## High5

I use the easy walk harness on Katie. I love it, she's not really a puller but if she does it turns her around to face me.


----------



## Jax's Mom

High5 said:


> I use the easy walk harness on Katie. I love it, she's not really a puller but if she does it turns her around to face me.


Can she pull out of it? My problem with contraptions like that is that unless it acts like a Chinese finger trap, Jax finds a way out. 
If I make it tight enough that he can't, it rubs and irritates his fur.


----------



## High5

She could pull out of it. But she would almost have to lay down and pull backwards. Like taking a t shirt off, her front legs would have to extend straight out infront of her. It does have a martingale style buckle on the front. If you get into a situation you can always grab the harness on her back while holding the leash attached to the front.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I use a coupler intended for two dogs and attach to the collar, and to the harness, and the leash goes to both. It's kind of bulky but makes me feel better.


----------



## selzer

So far I have never heard of a martingale failing, but I certainly have heard of prongs coming open resulting in a loose dog. I leave a flat collar with tags on the dog when I go out, and connect a lead to a martingale and use that to connect me to the dog. I would not trust a prong to keep my dog from pulling me into traffic. I have never had a dog I could not manage with a martingale (though Bear is starting to make me rethink that). 

You do not have to BE big to think BIG, to project BIG, to control your dog without "prongs digging into his neck" as you say.


----------



## Mom2Shaman

I'm with selzer on this one. I have had such success with martingales and what's good enough to stay on a hound's head is good enough for my big-headed big-eared fool. I also leave my daily collar with ID on above the martingale which even makes it more slip-proof as it would have to clear the collar and tag bundle and also keeps it riding a bit lower down the neck and not up in the throat region. It's all about adjusting so that it pinches/presses but not chokes.


----------



## AthenaPrkr

selzer said:


> I do not think it is the best collar for all dogs, and I do not think it is any safer for the dog than a martingale, in fact, I figure the martingale is safer, unless the dog is completely unmanageable.


I completely agree. Prongs are definitely not for every dog. For me, I have a dog I'm training for psychiatric service (I have PTSD). I also have a messed up hand, which means I need to be able to stop 80 lbs of German Shepherd, Amstaff, American bully mix without hurting him or me if the tendons in one of my hands doesn't want to cooperate. So, I use a prong collar for him when we're out while training. Lots of praise and treats are used, too, but he would pull like crazy with all the collars except this one. I wouldn't use a prong on something like a Rhodesian Ridgeback, who has an extremely short coat, and not a lot of muscle or protection in the neck. For them, a Martingale is the best bet.


----------



## selzer

Wow, that post of mine was 10 years ago. I still use nothing but martingales (flat collars for tags) and that Bear baby is 11 years old and a sweetheart. Recently my big mostly black long coated puppy was returned to me with a prong collar on. My friend assures me that she put it on him just for the drive as she had her young male in a crate and wanted something on mine to ensure she could keep the peace if necessary. I couldn't wait to get that thing off him. I know lots of people like the prongs, but that puppy wasn't pulling before without ever having a prong on, and I don't want a collar-sensitive dog. He's fine. I've walked him a couple of times and he is a gentleman. I also have trouble with my hands where I drop things. So I have to have control over my dogs with my voice. The collar is mostly just a visual aid for everyone else.


----------



## drparker151

A prong collar is a communication device to give a quick correction. If a dog is pulling and you just put on a prong collar to weaken the pull you’re doing it wrong.

Get with a trainer to learn the proper way to use the training and communication aid that a prong collar should be.


----------



## SMcN

As we are anticipating getting a GSD puppy in the future, I have been going through these puppy threads. I am inclined (strongly) towards the martingale from the get go for establishing basic training. The pressure and release concept is one I can wrap my brain around. It was helpful to read the discussion. 
I agree with the sentiment that if you are relying on your weight and a strong collar to keep your mature dog from creating havoc....the basics were not established and it would be wise to go back to square one and see what got missed.


----------

