# Kicked out of Target...



## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

So the wife needed to do some grocery shopping at the Super Target and I thought to bring Titon with for the socialization factor for the 2nd time since we've had him. 

The first trip was awesome. Had a lot of people approach and coodle him up like he was the cutest thing ever. 

Second trip, same thing ONLY a 19 year old assistant manager went on a power trip and asked me, "Is that dog in service dog training??" 

I replied, "Not yet but will be when he's a little older. Just trying to get him socialized with people and sounds."

His reply, "Sorry, I'm going to have to ask you to leave the store WITH that thing."

My reply, "Thing?? He's a puppy and isn't bothering anyone. I hope when you have kids someday, you call them a THING" Mind you, Titon was fast asleep in the cart. 

So, considering my wife and I have probably spent upwards of $20K+ at this very store since we've lived here, we are now taking our business to Wal-Mart which I dread.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Are you upset that he said "thing" or that he asked you to leave?


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

I'm fairly certain that Walmart and Target (and most other stores) actually aren't likely to permit pets.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ChicagocanineAre you upset that he said "thing" or that he asked you to leave?


Both... What is ironic is the fact that he saw me walk in with Titon and said nothing. It took him 25 minutes to approach me later with the tone he did. 

Colorado is a VERY pet-friendly state. [heck], you can take your dog to classes at the University of Colorado - Boulder.


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## valb (Sep 2, 2004)

Sorry, I think for a 19 year old he did pretty good. (Were you
guessing at his age btw?)

We wouldn't call him a thing but at least this guy was aware
enough to ask about service dogs in training, and I think
that's a plus.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

I bet if you walked in with a yorkie your visit would have gone a whooooole lot different.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDsI bet if you walked in with a yorkie your visit would have gone a whooooole lot different.


My point exactly...


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Hi Titonsdad, I am from Woodland Park so just up the "hill" from you, which target was this at? The one by the world arena? I'm just curious. I haven't tried to take my dog into a store other than PetSmart or Petco as I didn't theink they allowed them besides service dogs but I think they should. In Europe you can even take your dogs into a restaurant and have them sit in a chair next to you, one place even had a "doggie menu" in France!


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## Strongheart (May 2, 2007)

I've gone into stores with rabbits in carriers and no one bothered me even though I left a trail of hay.

But have to admit that I wouldn't dream of taking my dog into any store except the pet stores, at least in the US, I wouldn't.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteHi Titonsdad, I am from Woodland Park so just up the "hill" from you, which target was this at? The one by the world arena? I'm just curious. I haven't tried to take my dog into a store other than PetSmart or Petco as I didn't theink they allowed them besides service dogs but I think they should. In Europe you can even take your dogs into a restaurant and have them sit in a chair next to you, one place even had a "doggie menu" in France!


Close... It was the Target on N. Carefree and Powers (Colorado 21). 

If you're in Woodland Park, we'll have to get you down here for the next GSD play date this summer. (Will be my first one to attend)


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Okay, I haven't been to that Target, we don't get to Powers area much except to go to Best Buy or take my daughter to Itz family fun









Yeah, that would be great, let me know. We had a bunch of people from the board from CO here get together at Bear Creek Dog park last summer, was a blast! There is a thread with all the pics in the pictures area somewhere (probably way back now LOL)


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Do you have a rough time frame for me to search for those pics? Would love to see them... 

I live right up the road from Powers. Let me know if you're ever in the area. Would love to introduce the Fruitcake I own with your kids.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Here it is, I did a search









http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubb...rue#Post1187464

Was a fun day, had a whole pack going! I try to take Lou to Bear Creek whenever I can, we should meet up some day, it's a good place to socialize with other dogs, I took Lou there nearly every day when she was a pup for that reason!


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## Steffanie (Oct 1, 2005)

There's a lot of Targets here but the only one I know for sure that is a "Super" Target is the one on Powers - near the Sky Sox stadium? Anyway, which Target it is isn't really important, I only know of one where the staff has been quite rude to me for no apparent reason and I'm 99.9% sure that one isn't a Super Target anyway.

It sure is pet friendly here, but I'm not surprised you were asked to leave honestly. Target's store policy is that there are no pets allowed other than service animals or service animals in training, may have gotten lucky before that the staff were lax on the rules because they liked Titon. The employee was just following policy and covering his own butt, bet he would've done the same if it was a yorkie or any other dog. I'm more surprised you didn't get asked to leave the first time than I am that you were asked to leave this time.

Also, unless he was using a tone and clearly intending to be snarky with it, I don't see the problem with calling it a "thing". It is a "thing" afterall anyways, right? Very general term, and doesn't have to mean anything bad. Reading it as typed, it doesn't come off as rude to me.

Guess I don't understand why this little incident is worth changing to a store you don't like


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't like Wal Mart at all but we are there every week since they have one up here in Woodland







I like target MUCH better, especially their kids clothes!


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

It's hard to convey the tone in writing. I guess the way I typed "thing" wasn't nearly as close to the way he said it. I think any of you would have been on his neck like white on rice if he used that tone with you guys about your loved ones. I had to keep my wife from giving the poor kid a ranting tirade which is another story for another day. 

I just don't like my kids or pets being called a THING in such a way as to convey to be extremely rude. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. 

Now, some of you mentioned Targets policy on no dogs being allowed in their stores. I must share with you the reason why I thought nothing of it when bringing Titon there. Let's say in the past 5 years I've lived here... I have seen hundreds of dogs being walked into and out of this same Target store with anything from Great Danes to little ankle biting footballs (No offense).

Let me ask you girls this... Would it have been any different if I said Yes, my 9 week old GSD was in service training while he was passed out in the cart?


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I, personally, think dogs should be let in about everywhere! I just haven't tried because I assumed they would kick us out LOL. I would not like if someone called Lou a "thing" though. I am a pretty non confrontational person so I probably would have just huffed that she isn't a "Thing" and left and then explained to Lulu that most people weren't like this guy. 

Hah, I don't think the service training thing would have helped, but who knows. Maybe when he's older get him one of those doggie backpack things and say that you are epileptic and he senses sezures or something like that







not sure they would question it with a GSD


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh, and I don't think I have EVER seen a larger dog on a leash in a Target or Wal Mart, maybe the store has actually been very good about it besides this guy. I do see the little dogs in the purses, etc. though and they don't seem to mind about them. I also would think a small pup in the child area would be fine, but that's me.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

I <3 you Lisa!! I too would love to see dogs allowed anywhere. Talk about bias with those Paris Hilton wanna-bes with Coach purses and puffy footballs not being bothered.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote: Maybe when he's older get him one of those doggie backpack things and say that you are epileptic and he senses sezures or something like that not sure they would question it with a GSD










PLEASE don't say that even joking.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I am just joking, Tj, sorry, didn't mean to offend. I saw a dog that could do that and thought it was absolutely amazing!


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDadI <3 you Lisa!! I too would love to see dogs allowed anywhere. Talk about bias with those Paris Hilton wanna-bes with Coach purses and puffy footballs not being bothered.


I guess they just assume that the dog will go potty in the Coach purse and not their floor







I have a Gucci and a Louis Vuitton purse btw LOL but that's only because my rich sister sends me her old purses LOL and I can't fit Lulu in unfortunately!

But seriously, this country is WAY too strict on the dog thing, I wish I could live in Europe sometimes, I just LOVED it out there, so much more laid back than here it seemed!


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I knew you were. I read enough of your other posts to know you were not serious.









Yes working dogs are amazing and always a pleasue to see a proper one doing their job.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

What is interesting is that Lulu seems to "sense" injuries. Like if my daughter gets a "boo boo" and Lou isn't around when she does, the first thing she does when Maya gets home is sniff all over the area she got hurt and lick it. And I have had a few minor cuts, etc. that she immediately sniffs out and tries to lick that area.


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## maggs30 (Aug 5, 2008)

Three points. Two are health reasons and 1 insurance. 

1. Target would be sued and their insurance does not cover if an animal is allowed in the store and bites an employee or customer.

2. Some people are extremely allergic to pets and it is a burden on other shoppers health if they are shopping by you or use the cart after you.

and 3. They sell food and their licensing and state laws regulating the sale of food does not allow for pets to be around the food. 

Please be considerate of other people and do not make your GSD a burden that will affect peoples view of the breed in general.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Ha. This is like the time at work when a girl brought in her yorkiw. just holding it in her arms. Another person came in with their golden and got told to leave.
Why cant everybody be a dog person =(


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> Let me ask you girls this... Would it have been any different if I said Yes, my 9 week old GSD was in service training while he was passed out in the cart?


Yes, it would. But would you be saying so truthfully or in a lie? Because if its a lie, you deserve to be kicked out. You said in your OP that you told the manager your dog would be a SDIT in the future, is that true or were you just saying that? Taking dogs that are not legitimate SDITs or SD into stores makes it difficult for working teams. I was stopped at walmart recently by the greeter who said she had to check that my dog was "a real one" because someone had tried to bring in a puppy earlier. At my local walmart the front doors are clearly marked no pets, but service dogs welcome.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

I saw an old lady with a yorkie in a GROCERY STORE once! Yuck! Those mangy little things. It made me so irritated I wanted to go back outside and get Glory and bring her into the grocery store with me. People with little dogs get away with sooo much.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I've seen a lot of cute little Yorkies. And, some small breed dogs *may be* legitimate SDs though to be honest most in stores are not.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Awe, I grew up with a yorkie







Taffy







I love Yorkies, at least I loved mine. You don't know this lady and that doggie may be all she has, when people are older like that they have lost almost everyone and their dogs become their family and they want them with them. I don't mind at all when I see the little dogs in the stores, in fact, my daughter loves to go pet them and thinks it's neat to see them in the stores. 

That said though, it's true there is a bias on it, if the dog is little and just the head poking out of a purse they are allowed where larger dogs are not. I don't like that, I think dogs should be allowed everywhere but then as another poster said they have to adhere to insurance things, etc. which makes sense to them. Dogs can be cleaner than most humans so I don't really get the not letting dogs around the totally packaged food thing myself!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I have no idea about the specific instance with the yorkie, but FYI little dogs can be service dogs as well as large dogs. Many small breeds are trained for alert (seizure, diabetes, hearing.) A friend of mine has a coworker with a small terrier as her hearing alert dog. She runs into bias all the time where people think she is trying to get away with something since she has a little dog.


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## BuoyantDog (Aug 21, 2009)

Europe, I hear, is very friendly, especially in France, where dogs go inside places all the time, even grocery stores and restaurants!! I wish places were more dog friendly in the U.S. but they just aren't. I'm not sure about taking dogs in restaurants and grocery stores, but I don't see a problem anywhere else if they are well behaved.

I might add.....I don't see anything wrong with getting kicked out of Target though, per society's standards. The dude could have been a little bit more nice, but I am surprised you were even allowed in there at all.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Lin
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> ...


If you knew anything about me which this post tells me you don't since you didn't research my introduction, you would find that both my wife and I are deaf. Titon was bought for the sole purpose of being a hearing alert/home protection dog (Sch trained) when he's old enough. He's barely over 9 weeks and just started basic obedience. Show me a service dog that is certified at 9 weeks of age. 

So would that have been a lie? Not really since he will be a service dog trained in hearing alert. Would it be a lie right now, in a way yes since he isn't officially in training yet. Catch 22. 

Someone brought to my attention through PM (Thank you again) the health factors involved with bringing a dog into a store with food. For some reason, that never occurred to me. Shoot me while you can for having a blonde moment.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ILGHAUSI've seen a lot of cute little Yorkies. And, some small breed dogs *may be* legitimate SDs though to be honest most in stores are not.


I believe that any small dog with a senior citizen IS a SD and should be allowed. Granted, not a trained service dog, but I think that seniors should be allowed privileges that we are not for many reasons.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I think pets should be allowed more places, but I actually side with grocery stores when it comes to not letting in pets. If you open that up to everyone, not every dog that comes in is going to be clean. The food is not all packaged, having gone in grocery stores with a german shepherd the produce starts at about the same height as Tessa. Most dogs are not going to behave around all that temptation, and there are people who would be grossed out and not want the food if it was even smelled by the dog (a requirement of SDs, they are not allowed to sniff the food in a grocery store.)


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> If you knew anything about me which this post tells me you don't since you didn't research my introduction, you would find that both my wife and I are deaf. Titon was bought for the sole purpose of being a hearing alert/home protection dog (Sch trained) when he's old enough. He's barely over 9 weeks and just started basic obedience. Show me a service dog that is certified at 9 weeks of age.


Sorry, I didn't read your introduction either, so yes, your dog will be a service dog with the training you have lined up for him. And I would think that him being a service dog in training would earn him privileges. Titan will be able to tell you if there is danger that you cannot hear and should be with you everywhere you go.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LinI think pets should be allowed more places, but I actually side with grocery stores when it comes to not letting in pets. If you open that up to everyone, not every dog that comes in is going to be clean. The food is not all packaged, having gone in grocery stores with a german shepherd the produce starts at about the same height as Tessa. Most dogs are not going to behave around all that temptation, and there are people who would be grossed out and not want the food if it was even smelled by the dog (a requirement of SDs, they are not allowed to sniff the food in a grocery store.)


Had I never gone to Europe I would agree with this. But explain why the life expectancy there is much better than here and dogs are allowed everywhere? People get grossed out because they are not used to it and the US has everyone in fear of every possible disease out there, I think the stress of that is worse than anything for American citizens. I would think that a responsible dog owner would not take their dog to a public place if he/she wasn't clean and was known to be aggressive. 

I understand what you are saying about how people are here, but I don't agree with it and I, personally, would LOVE to see dogs by their humans sides everywhere.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Oh I hit reply too soon, I also wanted to add that Tessa gets brushed out thoroughly before we head out to make sure she isn't shedding all over stores, and she has been taught a "shake" command which we use before entering a grocery store or restaurant. After periods of laying down she needs to shake to adjust the harness, but she knows to wait until we are outside of a restaurant and she's given the command before she can shake. 

Titonsdad, thats great then I just didn't want it to be a lie. You're right, I have not researched you (does anyone research a person?) And as someone who is going to have a future SD, you can appreciate the problems that come with it! Have you had a hearing alert dog in the past? If you haven't been out with a SD its really quite different than it seems. I thought I was prepared and knew everything having researched for years and worked with Tessa before ever slapping a SDIT badge on her and heading out. Since Titon is going to be your hearing alert dog, I WOULD consider him to be a SDIT right now. Certification doesn't mean anything, in fact most SD "certifications" are scams unless its coming from a facility that trained the dog. You can check off things on a list and send in money to receive "service dog certification." 

According to federal laws a service dog is one that has been trained and meets the requirements (obedience, public access, service tasks) regardless of who trained the dog. We are lucky to have this, as in other countries (such as canada) you have to aquire a service dog from an accredited training center. For SDIT, you have to check your state laws to see if they are allowed the same public access rights as a fully trained SD. Some times the laws are vague, Indiana gives the same access rights "when accompanied by a trainer" but does not define trainer. Having spoken to a lawyer, this can be interpreted as the owner in owner trained SD teams. Its never to early to begin working with the pup.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

Consider there are approximately 350 million citizens in the US and only 1735 deaths from H1N1 virus, this country loves scaring the crap out of people via media.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

and MANY more deaths from the "seasonal" flu, I know, that is why I didn't get my daughter the H1N1 shot, even the people who developed it would not take it themselves in a report.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

There is a reason that Europeans don't like Americans... we can be really self centered and uneducated about how life really should be


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

I've had many opportunities to obtain a hearing alert dog in the past. I kind of fought off the effort with my parents because I didn't want to be treated like I was blind. (think a teenager and their status in society). I've also worked along side hearing alert dogs that were owned my friends of my wife and I while attending University. 

Now that I am 30, married, have 2 kids... I could care less what anyone thinks of me these days. I had a brush with death 6 months ago that changed my whole outlook on life. I was crushed in a car like a sardine in a can and lived to tell about it. Call me paranoid but this made me more aware of my surroundings hence why I gave in to getting a hearing alert dog to help me feel more confident/trusting of my environment.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

Oh, Titon's dad, you must read lips to know what the manager was saying, this is an AMAZING thing that you do and I have never understood how this is learned so accurately, seriously, if I wore a hat it would be off to you! Didn't he realize you were deaf and your dog was actually a service dog in training?


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

WOW!







and







you definitely have an angel on your shoulder. How old are your kids?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

To be fair to the store employee, he did ask if the pup was a SDIT. _Myself, I never consider a pup that young to be a SDIT but possibly a SD candidate. _

Before they can ask you to leave they have 2 questions they can ask. Are you disabled? Is your dog a SD / SDIT (in some states)?

_Came back to change a word. _


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteOh, Titon's dad, you must read lips to know what the manager was saying, this is an AMAZING thing that you do and I have never understood how this is learned so accurately, seriously, if I wore a hat it would be off to you! Didn't he realize you were deaf and your dog was actually a service dog in training?


Haha, reading lips accounts for 80% of my ability to communicate and I can reliably hear a measly 4% without lip reading.







Just something the brain trains itself to do to counter-act a deficiency.









I don't know what he was thinking to be honest. I personally think he got a call on his radio and wanted to fly high and mighty about the situation. Anyhow, I've learned not to take Titon into places that have food. Lesson learned.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

There are too many differences between lifestyle here and europe to try and compare a correlation between life expectancy and public access with pets. People in europe in general eat much healthier, and receive free health care (the health care in France is amazing... Anyone seen "sicko"?)

Titons, I understand that as I was in the same place as a teenager. My school was terrified of something happening (my disability is physical) at school and them being sued. At one point it was so outrageous my Dr said it was a self fullfilling prophecy and we could sue for discrimination. Anyway, they tried to force things on me that would make me stand out and as a teenager I wanted none of it. Its taken a while for me to become more lax about things, not be ashamed of my crutch or my joint braces, having to use disabled parking, etc. And its been tough with a service dog because people really do zoom in on you!


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteWOW!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First son is 22 months today

Second son is a 25 week old fetus.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ILGHAUSTo be fair to the store employee, he did ask if the pup was a SDIT. _Myself, I never consider a pup that young to be a SDIT but possibly a SD candidate. _
> 
> Before they can ask you to leave they have 2 questions they can ask. Are you disabled? Is that a SD / SDIT (in some states)?


Agreed. The question NEVER came up about us being disabled even though both my wife and I signed to each other for the half hour we were fortunate enough to shop without a bother. 

But anyways, I was stuck in a catch 22 situation and I hate lying. So I was honest as I could be by answering his SDIT question with a no.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

awe







well, we will definitely have to come down the "hill" and visit you, my daughter loves being the oldest and being around kids younger than her







she just turned 6 12/28


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ILGHAUS_Myself, I never consider a pup that young to be a SDIT but possibly a SD candidate. _


Ah, very good point. Tessa was an adult when I considered her a SD candidate, and it was a couple years after I considered her a SD candidate before I started specific SD training. I had her evaluated by the Indiana canine assistant network as well during training. I don't think I was completely sure that Tessa was going to make a SD until after connecting with ICAN.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

That avatar is killing my sides... I'm laying in bed with the wife passed out next to me and I'm afraid of waking her up with my rolling laughter.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Good to know







It always cracks me up. On another forum I've been told the quote I used in my signature cracked people up, its "before you criticize someone walk a mile in their shoes. That way you're a mile from them, and you have their shoes."


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LinGood to know
> 
> 
> 
> ...

















good one!


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

Here's another video of the seagull! I've been told it was a daily shoplifting thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PvUhm04Kws


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

I was just waiting for the seagull to start attacking the harassing camera-man...


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

OMG that is hilarious!


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

Where I live I think it's against the law for dogs and other animals to be in areas food is processed, handled, or sold for human consumption; so that pretty much eliminates restaurants and grocery stores. However I think there may be exemptions for service dogs whether they be seeing eye dogs or police dogs. However from there on the law gets muddy and I don't think dogs in training are typically allowed.

Some of the local hardware and feed stores are friendly to service dogs in training. I was visiting one of the local Lowe's I had previously left my dog outside, she was barking in protest as I was walking toward the store. I had previously seen signs in the store that said service dogs are welcome; I didn't bring my dog in because she's not officially a service dog and she's not in training to be a service dog. Several of the employees invited me to bring my dog in; I explained that she was not an official service dog and not an official training; several employees said to bring her in any way; so ever since then I bring in my dog and do as much shopping as reasonably possible at that store.

When it's slow sometimes the employees will greet the dog. I think it's good for the public to be exposed to the dogs; to help reduce their fears of dogs and to help people get used to the idea of people taking dogs into public areas. I think it's good for my dog because it helps her get used to people and ignoring people. I've got her trained so that when she goes into the store she pretty much ignores people unless she is invited or told to greet people. She also seems to know that when people feel uneasy around her that we try to give them a little more space.

She acts almost happy, proud, or privilege and/or dutiful when we go to the hardware store.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Per Title III of the ADA of 1990, Service Dogs are allowed into grocery stores and restaurants where people are served. They are not allowed into food prep areas where only employees are allowed. 



> Quote:However from there on the law gets muddy and I don't think dogs in training are typically allowed.


In some states per state statute, SDITs are allowed inside with their trainers. But even here some states only allow trainers with an approved agency while some allow owner-trainers to take their dogs in. Most states that do allow SDITs also per statute also require that the SDIT is allowed only while actual training is taking place. 

The term Service Dog in this thread only referes to Service Dogs for Disabled Handlers. 

Law enforcement K-9 handlers do not take their dogs into stores to shop or into a restaurant while they eat. 


Came back to add the Federal Law that allows SDs into restaurants and grocery stores.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I'm going to be nit picky here, I don't mean any offense but just want to use the opportunity to educate









Police dogs aren't service dogs, but are working dogs. The term service dog is referring to assistance dogs for the disabled. Also, therapy dogs are working dogs but are not service dogs so do not have the rights that a service dog has. 

Service dogs are essentially considered medical equipment by federal laws since they minimize the partners disability. Preventing a service dog from entering a place of business is seen as equal to preventing someone from using a wheel chair in a place of business. Federal access laws refer to public places only though, and private places are not included (such as hospitals, where it would depend on either the hospitals rules or state law.) 

You said you don't think dogs in training are allowed, for service dogs thats determined by state laws. Many states have very clear laws that give SDIT equal access as SD, others have less clear laws (like Indiana, which doesn't define "service dog trainer" and therefor can be left up to interpretation), and some don't give SDIT any public access in which case it depends on the individual business if they wish to allow in a SDIT. 

Edit: I was typing my post when TJ posted. I should have known she would beat me to it!


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote: Edit: I was typing my post when TJ posted. I should have known she would beat me to it










We should team up for sure.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: DogGone
> When it's slow sometimes the employees will greet the dog. I think it's good for the public to be exposed to the dogs; to help reduce their fears of dogs and to help people get used to the idea of people taking dogs into public areas.


When it comes to service dogs, in 99.9% of cases the public is not to greet or pet the dog. The dog is working, so it shouldn't be distracted from its work. This is a pet peeve of mine. When I was a kid, I knew you couldn't greet them or pet but didn't understand why. In my dogs case, Tessa LOVES people. She would like nothing better than to climb into your lap and lick you to death. Allowing her to greet people in public leaves her to expect to greet people in public. For example, taking her to a park or a petstore without SD gear she wants to say hello to anyone she can reach. When in harness, we could be squeezing through a crowd touching on all 4 sides and she wouldn't break focus to say hello to someone. But if I allowed people to pet her in harness, then she would think it was ok. 

Now some individuals don't have an issue like that with their SD, and will even have "ask to pet me, I'm friendly" patches on it rather than "working, do not pet" ones.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Really you can't fault the store or the employee for following the rules. It is against the health code to have animals/pets in the store (unless they are service animals), and they have to follow the rules. They asked you if the puppy was a service dog in training and when you said no they had to assume it was a pet then, which is not allowed by the health code so legally they have to follow that. If you have seen animals in the store before, perhaps there were different people working at that time who either don't know the law or don't care, or perhaps the store was cited or complaints were filed and the employees have since been told to check on anyone who brings an animal in the store.

I agree with the person who said they would not consider a puppy that young to be a service dog in training. Public access training in generally done with older puppies who are further along in their service dog training. As far as whether service dogs in training are allowed, that depends on individual state laws IIRC. It's not covered in the ADA so it depends on where you live.

That said I know it is not fun to be kicked out like that... A few years ago there was a thread on a forum I belong to where people were talking about how Home Depot was dog friendly. I was walking my dog one day and I needed something from Home Depot so I decided to stop in since I'd heard they allowed dogs. There was an employee standing outside near the entrance, and I asked him if it was ok to bring my dog in. He said yes, so we walked in the door. We got about 30 feet when another employee came running up and yelled at me to get that dog out of the store, no dogs allowed.







I was embarrassed and I tried to explain that the employee at the door said it was okay so I had thought dogs were allowed. So I found out dogs are NOT allowed at Home Depot at least in my area!
I also got kicked out of a street festival once by security guards for bringing my Rat Terrier mix in. I'd assumed dogs were allowed since it was on the public street/sidewalks and the person taking donations allowed my dog and I in the entrance without comment, but I guess they just didn't notice him since he was a small dog. I was irritated at being hustled out by sercurity but I wasn't too upset because we'd already been in the festival for about an hour and were planning to leave soon anyway. Unfortunately they were so adamant that we leave that I wasn't able to properly tell the person who was with us what was happening, I thought he'd heard me call it out from where they were detaining me but he didn't understand and I ended up waiting at the car for about 20+ minutes before he came to look for us.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I think the manager was right.

I had to leave a Target last weekend because some moron had a pet dog, and the dog was growling as my SDIT and I approached. 

My pup has over 400 hours of training, but he's still just a pup. When he's working on his public access skills, I don't want him to be distracted by the dog in the Cereal Aisle and whether the dog is going to bother him.

So we just left.

The problem? Every Target I've ever been to has stickers that say only service animals are prohibited. Our county has a law that SDIT have the same rights as SD. 

And when I started to work my pup, I called the local Target (and all the other stores & facilities that I hoped to work my dog at) and talked to the manager to ensure that my SDIT would be welcome there. I was told yes, and was assured he would be welcome at all local Targets as long as he had good obedience skills and was working at the time. 

Fortunately, I was "just" training him. And I have a car. I could move on to another location. What if I were someone who needed to buy stuff at Target and I had to take public transportation to get there and back? What if I didn't notice that growling dog until he reacted physically? What if I were legally blind or very mobility impaired and that happened?

You can say that your pup isn't aggressive, but a puppy that young doesn't have reliably good manners (unless perhaps you've been doing some very serious intensive training with a working goal in mind). He can bark, jump up, and be a silly puppy. All of that is distracting to a working dog. 

You were wrong to bring your dog in the store. Maybe the manager could have been more tactful. But you were wrong. The puppy section of this forum has all sorts of ideas for how to socialize your puppy. You can do so without bringing him where he's not welcome.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherdThree points. Two are health reasons and 1 insurance.
> 
> 1. Target would be sued and their insurance does not cover if an animal is allowed in the store and bites an employee or customer.
> 
> ...


That goes for Europe too. You may bring your dog to a Restaurant but you can't bring them into McDonalds or any Supermarket that sells food. 

BUT you can bring them to a mall like Rhein Neckar Zentrum or any big warehouse.


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## ebrannan (Aug 14, 2006)

Thank you for clarifying. 
My mom was from France, her whole side of the family is in France, and my sister (whose home and hubby live in CO), lives in France. 
I completely trust her overview of things. Although she loves France, and will likely never leave, it does have its drawbacks also, just like anywhere. 
She was a nurse/is now a medical transcriptionist simply because she just got burned out nursing. She telecommutes from her hospital in CO, so her paycheck is totally US dollars. She owns her home in France and pays all necessary property taxes. She also has dual citizenship. However, since she lives there more than six-months out of the year, her paycheck is taxed by the U.S. AND France. But, according to the French government, she does not qualify for socialized medicine. 
She lives in a small village in the south of France. In that whole region, it is standard practice that owners do not regularly spay/neuter their pets. They also have very little confinement. It is a haul to a human doctor or vet, about 50 km, and is very expensive. She actually was attacked by an under socialized Caucasian Mountain Dog and bit pretty severely in the leg. She went to two doctors in France, it didn't heal properly and she ended up getting the final infection cleared here in the U.S.
She is lucky that she found a wonderful boarding kennel, run by an British couple, that feeds RAW in the a.m., kibble at night, and takes the dogs on long walks in the countryside twice a day. This is basically her GSD's home-away-from-home when it is her turn to travel back to the states to see her hubby. They alternate, he goes to France, she then comes to the U.S. However, it is about 75 km to get to the kennel. 
Yes, they do eat healthier, but I think this is more a learned tradition and choice. This is also because the choices in the outskirts of France simply aren't there. Now, this is certainly my preference and I have fond memories of going to the local bakery with Pops to get fresh bread every morning. I can also remember skimming the cream off the freshly delivered milk. 
All those things are available in the U.S. too. You just need to chose this preference.
I know this is totally off the subject of dogs in Target. And I also agree, the pup shouldn't have been there in the first place. 
I guess I just wanted to say in closing, yes, France is wonderful ... Europe is wonderful. But, I live in the United States of America and am proud of my country. For American citizens who want to live in Europe, fine, go there and enjoy all the beauty there is to offer. And, there is tons of it.
But, please, don't slam the country you currently live in and call home. Contrary to what some say, our health care is one of the most superb in the world, we live in the land of the free, and I hope it stays that way, and we are surrounded by some of the most generous neighbors you could possibly wish for. Perfect example: The incredible aid that is pouring into Haiti from around the world, but spearheaded by the U.S. 
Be proud of where you live and who you are and you can then look at all the other wonderful things available for you to see/hear/smell/touch in the rest of the world.


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## goatdude (Mar 3, 2009)

Normally I don't bring my dog into a retail store other than pet stores b/c it's really hit or mis with which places are dog friendly around here. Sometimes I'm surprised like when at a Big-R I was looking for something for the dog and they asked if I had her here. I replied "shes out in the truck" "well then bring her in". 

But even at Petco I find some mothers escorting their kids away from my shep with that look on their faces that just says "why did you bring that guard dog in here?". I can be a challenge with our Shepherds.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom Every Target I've ever been to has stickers that say only service animals are prohibited. Our county has a law that SDIT have the same rights as SD.


I've seen that sticker at my Target. I go to Target A LOT and I've only ever seen two dogs in the store - an adult Golden Retriever assisting a woman in a wheelchair (who also had a store employee helping her get things off the higher shelves) and a younger Malinois who I believe was in training but was wearing a harness and vest. I admired him from afar because I could see people asking questions and the handlers were not letting anyone touch him.

I live in a dog UNfriendly place. I have never seen dogs other than SDs anywhere besides pet stores, TSC, and this one bar downtown that allows dogs on the patio.

I'm not sure whether a 9 week old dog is covered as an "SDIT" but I wouldn't sweat it, there are so many other ways to socialize a dog that young. Even in my dog UNfriendly city I didn't have enough time to hit all the parks, pet stores, and parking lots I intended for socialization and my dog is just fine. The "Thing" comment is kinda off but hey not everyone likes dogs or appreciates bending the rules.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ebrannanBut, please, don't slam the country you currently live in and call home. Contrary to what some say, our health care is one of the most superb in the world,


I haven't slammed this country, in case that was directed towards me at all. We have the best emergency/trauma care in the world, and some of the worst preventative medicine. Eating healthy IS always a choice. Too many make the wrong choice. In many cases its unfortunate that eating unhealthy is cheaper, but if you put the effort into it then its not (many stores have a clearance section of foods that are nearly expired etc.)

Its off topic, and a touchy subject to many, but our health care is not superb. In some aspects (trauma) it is, in others it isn't. And one of the biggest problems with our healthcare is the limited amount of people that have access to it. Its a personal issue with me as I am disabled and many of my friends are as well. On a personal level I've seen horrific things like my best friend being denied life sustaining tpn by insurance, and her mother being dropped from insurance in the middle of cancer treatment the first time and denied coverage from a different insurance when her cancer came back. But as much as these personal things bother me, its the big picture thats really important and bothersome.


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## HeidiW (Apr 9, 2009)

No dogs allowed in stores here in NH other than pet stores.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

I for one am not offended that I can't take my dogs into stores and restaurants. I grew up in the UK where dogs were allowed in pubs, but I don't recall seeing them taken just anywhere - that might be more of a Continental thing. Some of the more upscale coffee shops in my neighborhood do permit dogs on their outdoor patios, and of course places like Petsmart. Some of the dogs are a nuisance - they don't have enough OB training to be in that kind of situation. The one thing I remember about European dogs is that they were very well behaved. Most of them were off leash, and stayed close by the owner - they weren't running around, and getting under peoples' feet, or tied to a post like the Bernese Mountain Dog I saw recently who was barking and blocking patrons attempts to get inside. (The owner was nowhere to be seen.) I think that Tri-shepherd has some good points - this is the law, like it or not. There isn't the tradition here of taking dogs into commercial establishments, and I shudder to think of what it would be like if it were suddenly deemed to be OK......

_________________________________
Susan

Anja GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## ebrannan (Aug 14, 2006)

I agree. My husband does most of the shopping since I have such a hard time w/ my leg pain, but before this last big snow we received, I had to get to the store to get some food. He was at work, and the snow started before he got home. 
I know the incredible pain I was in before finishing and leaving the store. It was crowded and getting through the isles was tough. Can you imagine if owners brought their dogs into that and the dogs were not trained the way they should be?
I would have probably left and said, "Oodles of Noodles for everybody!".


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## marksteven (Aug 2, 2008)

Only retail places here that you will ever be allowed to bring in a leashed, non- service dog are pet shops. any where else you can forget it. all major stores i.e home depot, walmart , target, lowes etc. have signs prohibiting it. dont even think about supermarkets. so much for socialization.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

Haven't read the whole thread but if it is a super Target and they sell food there is probably a state law against having dogs in the store. First visit, employees were probably asleep. Second visit, the guy probably went to check policy before approaching you. Yes, his approach could have been better. such as .. What a cute pup, is he? No? I'm sorry but I'll have to ask you... But he probably expected resistance and sometimes when someone expects resistance they brace a little too hard and then yes, they get it.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Our Walmart will allow SDIT, as well as our Lowe's. Lowe's used to let dogs in up till a couple months ago but to many ppl let their dogs do whatever they want so they stopped that. I don't think the manager that talked to us understood the difference between Service Dog and Therapy Dog so I will call before I take Jax out again. And I would never dream of taking her somewhere under the guise that she's a SDIT.

In PA, if you serve/sell food it is illegal for the stores to allow your animal in unless it is a service animal.

I think we all need to remember that not all people are dog people. We all, myself included, get our dander up if someone doesn't phrase something just right to us. Sometimes we just need to take a breather and step back from the situation.


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## HDkutz (Jan 9, 2010)

I`m curious. I read over many of your posts and your reason for a GSD was "Male, protection, beautiful and different breed and possible S&R" Why did you claim he was going to be a service dog?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

SAR is a service dog, isn't it?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No, SAR is search and rescue, more like a "working dog", but not a Service Dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

ahhhh...do they normally train in public places? I thought SAR dogs would also be exposed to public places for training and could fall into that category.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Quote:Service animal means any dog or other common domestic animal individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of an individual with a disability, including, but not limited to [long list of examples].


The SD does tasks for a person with a disability, tasks that are important for that person to lead a normal life and task the person cannot do without the dog.

I'm not sure how SAR dogs train but doing SAR does not make them an SD (though a dog can do both....I think Max on here is both?) and does not give them the same protection under the law as an SD.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: HDkutzI`m curious. I read over many of your posts and your reason for a GSD was "Male, protection, beautiful and different breed and possible S&R" *Why did you claim he was going to be a service dog?*


Wow... Really?? Did you read anything I've posted in THIS thread?


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Tri-shepherdThree points. Two are health reasons and 1 insurance.
> 
> 1. Target would be sued and their insurance does not cover if an animal is allowed in the store and bites an employee or customer.
> 
> ...




See this is what I don't understand....



Are people not allergic to service dogs, but are to every other dog? 

Are service dogs exempt from health code regulations?


Yes I am being slightly sarcastic but health code regulations are serious matters with businesses. What if someone came in with a service dog when there were people shopping who were highly allergic to dogs?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for the explanation, Lies!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MustLoveGSDs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(bold mine) So is the American Disability Act. So what person should be taken more seriously? The epileptic whose dog can save their life? Or the person who is sneezing because of the dog hair? Not that an allergy isn't serious and can cause breathing obstructions.

But I wouldn't be to enthuised to buy food with dog hair all over it.


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## MustLoveGSDs (Oct 31, 2008)

Exactly Jax...how do they determine which case is more important? Obviously I know people with disabilities have priority since service dogs are allowed in businesses that other dogs are not.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The courts decided that, the stores don't.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Not addressed to anyone in particular. 

A *proper* SD is clean and well-groomed whenever in the public. Their handlers would never think of leaving home without first brushing their dog and making sure that their dog and tack are spotless. If you ever visited a service dog forum you would see discussions on the latest shampoos/conditioners, toothpaste and ear cleaners, brushes, body wipes etc.

Someone who is highly allergic to dog dander will also in most cases also respond to the dander/hair on an owner's clothing.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I wasn't speaking of a SD when I made the comment about the hair all over the food. I was speaking of how it could be if just anyone is let in with their dog.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote:Why did you claim he was going to be a service dog?


I didn't see anywhere that TitonsDad told the store employee that the pup was a SD or even a SDIT. When asked he was truthfull. His only complaint was someone who could possibly have been more tactful in asking him to leave. He said here he didn't think that much about going in as his pup was welcomed by employees earlier. And he did mention that he on further thought could see the other side. 

Edited to add the quote from another poster.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje
> I live in a dog UNfriendly place. I have never seen dogs other than SDs anywhere besides pet stores, TSC, and this one bar downtown that allows dogs on the patio.


In my area there are quite a few places that allow dogs. Luckily there have also been several books written about dog-friendly places in Chicago so it is (or was when the books were out, they may be outdated now) pretty easy to find places to go with your dog here.
It used to be most restaurants' patios were also dog friendly. However several years ago the mayor banned dogs from outdoor seating in the city. Then a year after that they made a new ordinance which required restaurants to purchase a special license and follow specific rules in order to allow dogs in their patios. I think that's great except the fee for the restaurants is high so probably not as many as would like to allow dogs have purchased the license. However there are about 50 restaurants which do have the dog friendly license for their patios (or did last year; it is renewed in the spring I think.)


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## Mandalay (Apr 21, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad Shoot me while you can for having a blonde moment.


Oh gosh, don't say that. Do you know how many times a day I'd get shot?!









I think its nice that you admitted that you had not thought of another side and can see that side when it was pointed out to you btw. So many times people get set on being right, that they only see red and none of the other colors in the rainbow.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Quote:"Is that dog in service dog training??"
> 
> I replied, "Not yet but will be when he's a little older. Just trying to get him socialized with people and sounds."


I did want to come back and clarify my last post just a bit more. The OP did not claim that his dog was currently a SDIT but that he would be going into training in the future. Why? The answer is because the OP plans on training him as such.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: markstevenOnly retail places here that you will ever be allowed to bring in a leashed, non- service dog are pet shops. any where else you can forget it. all major stores i.e home depot, walmart , target, lowes etc. have signs prohibiting it. dont even think about supermarkets. so much for socialization.


Generally dogs aren't certified service dogs are not permitted in stores especially supermarkets, restaurants and other places that sell or prepare food.

However there are some places that will let you bring your dog in. I suggest calling and asking first because policies can be different between stores and localities. I have found that some hardware stores and some feed stores allow leashed non-service dogs. I'm not positive but I think Bass Pro shop has a national policy of allowing leashed nonservice dogs. So if you have an unofficial service dog that you want to train or evaluate to be a service dog these can be excellent places to go. It's also nice to have some places that you can take your dog shopping.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Chicagocanine
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Liesje
> ...


Yeah I always see sooooo many dogs when I'm in Chicago, on all the patios and in all the parks. Even most of the outdoor parks here have "no dogs" signs posted. The dog beach is no longer a dog beach b/c of complaints and the health department recommending it be closed to dogs.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ILGHAUSNot addressed to anyone in particular.
> 
> A *proper* SD is clean and well-groomed whenever in the public. Their handlers would never think of leaving home without first brushing their dog and making sure that their dog and tack are spotless. If you ever visited a service dog forum you would see discussions on the latest shampoos/conditioners, toothpaste and ear cleaners, brushes, body wipes etc.
> 
> Someone who is highly allergic to dog dander will also in most cases also respond to the dander/hair on an owner's clothing.


Another more important thing about public dog etiquette is that your dog should have ample opportunity to empty its bladder and bowels before going into a store. It's also a good idea to have a cleanup kit, a few wet wipes, few paper towels and a few plastic bags just in case your dog has an accident in the store (I use a fanny pack to carry such supplies). Male dogs are the worst as they like to mark their territory, so you have to watch them like a hawk and try to intervene before they mark. Us dog owners should do our part to show responsibility and to try to have good public-relations.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

A proper service dog has been trained to never eliminate _ on his own accord _ indoors and certainly never to mark. My beagle tracks with a dog that washed out of Canine Companions for Independence because the dog had an accident at a store. Just one. 

My first thought was "handler error," that the dog wasn't given sufficient opportunity to go before they went into the store. Doesn't matter. She was retired. 

My male dog doesn't mark. He would certainly never mark in a store. When we're in a pet store, he's not allowed to sniff where other dogs clearly have marked repeatedly. (My last male GSD did like to mark at certain "meeting places" on walks, but only when I gave him the ok. Only then.)

My pup and I were on the 3rd floor of a mall over the holidays (training to deal with heavy crowds) and he started to get very squirrely. He made it clear to me that he needed to get out of the mall immediately. I walked him out as fast as I could and gave him the command to potty, and he did so, quite quickly. We were able to go back in and finish our training. 

A service dog has to be 100% trained to never eliminate indoors (unless on a pad, on command). He has to be able to communicate to his owner that he needs to leave the store. And he needs to "hold it" until he can get outside, to an appropriate place (immediately outside the doors isn't appropriate). 

It's tough. I give my little guy a lot of credit. 

As for Michelle's question about the person with dog allergies vs the the person who needs an SD, this was discussed in this thread: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1278287&page=1#Post1278287 

SDs are trained not to shake off when coming out from under the table after dinner at a restaurant (most people don't even know my pup is there until he comes out -- if the table is large enough, that includes the waitress). We don't want people to even THINK there's a chance of flying fur. He's washed very frequently, brushed and groomed every day we go into a public place. If his feet/nose/etc get ANY specs of dirt or mud on them after a bath (we live in Washington State...), these get washed off before we go into the public. 

When he had an bad ear infection, we took almost a week off, until it was cleared up; then I very carefully bathed him so that the Otimax was gone. I didn't want the greasy medicine to attract any dust or dirt. 

My little pet beagle gets bathed as frequently because if she's dusty, has loose dander and fur, and is wrestling around with him at home, then she's undoing all of the efforts to keep him meticulously clean. 

So, if someone has dog allergies, they're probably doing to react to any of you, with dog fur and dander on your clothes, as quickly as they'd react to my service dog.


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## SouthernThistle (Nov 16, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> 
> Both... What is ironic is the fact that he saw me walk in with Titon and said nothing. It took him 25 minutes to approach me later with the tone he did.


Perhaps other customers complained? Maybe the manager said something to him about not addressing you? 

I wouldn't have brought a puppy/dog into the store in the first place when there are signs that say, "no pets allowed."









I know the only stores in my area that allow pets are the pet stores, Tractor, and Lowe's. Even the Home Depot has a sign posted that says, "absolutely no pets allowed unless it's a service dog." It's the first time I've seen a "no pets" sign at a Home Depot.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

3K9Mom...I feel for you! DH is allergic to peanuts as well though not to the extent that you are. for years he's complained that regular M&Ms are contaminated. Allergies, of any kind, need to be taken more seriously as they are more common than ppl thinkg.. My understanding of allergies to animals is that it is the dander and not the hair that causes the allergic reaction.

I think the bottom line for me ,is that if you do not have a service dog, or a SDIT then don't bring them into a store unless you know for sure it's allowed. Any place with food is questionable. And if your dog is not in training to be a SD then you need to call ahead.


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## victoria_warfel (Nov 29, 2007)

As a professional dog trainer who trained my previous dog as my Service Dog, I have experience with SD and have had clients interested in training their dog to be their SD. I have noticed that a lot of people want to start bringing their SDIT or almost-SDIT into stores right away. This is not necessary, store access is like the tinsel on a Christmas tree, the last thing to be done. 

Your dog should be trained in basic and advanced obedience, and have a rock-solid temperament, before worrying about store access. If you MUST have store access ahead of time, take your dog to a dog-friendly store during slow times (why during slow times? You do not want your SD candidate set back because of an unruly/aggressive dog he may encounter). Take your pup to parks and sit on a bench and get him used to his surrounds, all the people and animals there.

I have more information on my web site - http://dreamdogz.com/service%20dog.html


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SouthernThistle
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> ...


Perhaps there was never a sign on ANY doors of this Target banning pets? 

But thank you for your late post.


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## HDkutz (Jan 9, 2010)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> 
> Second trip, same thing ONLY a 19 year old assistant manager went on a power trip and asked me, "Is that dog in *service dog training*??"
> 
> I replied, "*Not yet but will be when he's a little older*. Just trying to get him socialized with people and sounds."





> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> 
> Today we took Titon to meet his new trainer Jim from CoolK9s.com who will be working with Titon and I on all obedience and then *Schutzhund training*. (*We talked about training Titon to be an on-call rescue/recovery dog at some point* for El Paso County Search and Rescue/El Paso County Sheriff's Office. We'll know more about that later.





> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> 4) Kill 4 birds with one stone. Male, *protection*, beautiful and different breed.


Your words not mine. You might at some point train him to be a working dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Did you go through all 80 of his posts to find those quotes? Why would you do that? Just curious. I can't be the only to wonder what your point is.









So he wants someday to possibly by SAR? How is the last quote relevant to this thread?


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## HDkutz (Jan 9, 2010)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because when people say they have a service dog and they don`t it creates issues with the general public and business owners, The ones who suffer because of people skepticism are the people who really need their service dogs and will come under that scrutiny. Even real SDIT don`t come under the ADA rules but many business owners offer them that courtesy.

I only looked at his introductory thread and saw this pup wasn`t being raised to be a service dog and only possibly a S&R dog.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Which I think we all, including the OP, agree on that. Obviously he made the same mistake I did in thinking that SAR fell under service rather than working. 

We learn something every day...


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: HDkutz
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Jax08
> ...


It's possible the goal of training for a service dog was added, it possible as Michelle said he mistook the difference between S&R and SAR, it's possibly something else. What seems clear is that TitonsDad did not try to pass the puppy off as something it wasn't in the store which is highly commendable, so there is no issue/contoversy there.

HDkutz, how about introducing yourself and your pack in the intro section or better post some pictures in the pictures section? I think folks would love to get to know you and your pack!


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## Rei (Oct 10, 2008)

> Quote:Because when people say they have a service dog and they don`t it creates issues with the general public and business owners, The ones who suffer because of people skepticism are the people who really need their service dogs and will come under that scrutiny. Even real SDIT don`t come under the ADA rules but many business owners offer them that courtesy.
> 
> I only looked at his introductory thread and saw this pup wasn`t being raised to be a service dog and only possibly a S&R dog.


1) The OP NEVER claimed to the Target employee that his dog was a Service Dog, OR that his dog was a SDIT. Only that he planned to train him as a SD later on. And I commend him for his honesty.

2) If you read the thread in it's entirety, or even the first few pages of it, you would have found out that the OP is a person with a disability who would like to train his dog as a hearing alert dog.



> Originally Posted By: TitonsDadI've had many opportunities to obtain a hearing alert dog in the past. I kind of fought off the effort with my parents because I didn't want to be treated like I was blind. (think a teenager and their status in society). I've also worked along side hearing alert dogs that were owned my friends of my wife and I while attending University.
> 
> Now that I am 30, married, have 2 kids... I could care less what anyone thinks of me these days. I had a brush with death 6 months ago that changed my whole outlook on life. I was crushed in a car like a sardine in a can and lived to tell about it. Call me paranoid but this made me more aware of my surroundings hence why I gave in to getting a hearing alert dog to help me feel more confident/trusting of my environment.





> Originally Posted By: TitonsDadboth my wife and I are deaf. Titon was bought for the sole purpose of being a hearing alert/home protection dog (Sch trained) when he's old enough. He's barely over 9 weeks and just started basic obedience. Show me a service dog that is certified at 9 weeks of age.


...from the OPs posts in this thread.





> Originally Posted By: SouthernThistleEven the Home Depot has a sign posted that says, "absolutely no pets allowed unless it's a service dog." It's the first time I've seen a "no pets" sign at a Home Depot.


Now, I've never taken a dog into a store without asking permission first, but our Home Depot also has a "no pets" sign right at the front door, and yet it is a very popular place to take your dog. I can't go in there without seeing one or two dogs walking around, and the some of the employees even keep treats in their pockets for the dogs! Must depend on where you live!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And there ya go! I missed all those posts also! And I also missed the post where he's seen many, many dogs go in and out of target.

I think I would make a call to the regional office to find out why Titon was told to leave but the others weren't.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: HDkutz
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Jax08
> ...


Wow, seems you have a personal agenda against me for whatever reason. Almost feels like I have a stalker here especially someone that has 6 posts as of now. 

I'm done with this thread. Thank you to those of you that opened my eyes to health codes and dogs in relation to stores. Learn something new every day. 

Thank you also to those of you understanding that I was NOT claiming my puppy was SDIT and/or SD throughout this whole ordeal. 

To make this explicitly clear for those of you [heck]-bent on following me around and quoting me. 

Titon is here to serve these purposes in his life:

1) Hearing alert dog when old enough to train for it. Call it SD if you want. 

2) Home Protection with some Schutzhund training thrown in

3) Companion 

4) Search and Rescue (on the back burner until we know how well trainable he is in the first 2)

Erich, out


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

C'mon guys, seriously? This is a wonderful new member who can learn a LOT here from everyone's experience with a beautiful little GSD pup. Can we please STOP driving people away with the judgmental attitudes? Think of the OP intentions and what a kind person they seem to be before just spouting out opinions and judgments, lighten up? Please? People have been way too hot lately, IMO.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Don't worry about it. Some people just get their hackles up over service dogs who aren't really. 

I got a hard time here over taking one of my dogs, Luther, to the hospital. Luther had a CGC but couldn't pass the therapy dog test becuase of the food portion of it. When my husband spent months in the hospital after a motorcycle accident, I used to bring Luther there. My husbands physical therapist would bring him outside where I would meet them. It was good for my husband and good for the dog. When he later went to rehab, the facility gave me permission to bring my dogs into the lobby to see my husband.

Several people here took offense to my bringing the dog to the hospital - becuase - gasp - he wasn't a therapy dog. No he wasn't, he was just dam good dog who'd have passed the test if he didn't live to eat. He deserved to see my husband. He helped my husband get better. 

But that was wrong of me to do in the opinion of some high mighty folks. I had the hospital's certified therapy dogs visit my husband. Didn't mean the same to him as having his wife with our own dog there.

Just my own experience wtih the high holy you shouldn't do that crowd...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Erich,
I adopted Kacie from a person who is nearly deaf. We became friends after I adopted Kacie, though it is hard for her to communicate and I am not sign language smart. I wish she would/could get a service dog, or train her rescue spaniel Emma to help her out! 
She isn't on the computer much, so the only way for me to get in touch is thru phone, leave a mssg and have her BF interpret. 
I wish you and Titon the best in your journey together!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: StarryNiteC'mon guys, seriously? This is a wonderful new member who can learn a LOT here from everyone's experience with a beautiful little GSD pup. Can we please STOP driving people away with the judgmental attitudes? Think of the OP intentions and what a kind person they seem to be before just spouting out opinions and judgments, lighten up? Please? People have been way too hot lately, IMO.


What are you talking about? Nobody was mean to Titon's Dad other than the one new poster who questioned whether Titon was a SD or not. And that person wasn't really mean, just felt very strongly about the whole situation and didn't read all the posts very carefully.


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## StarryNite (Jun 2, 2009)

I am talking about this person not wanting to post anymore because of this thread. And there were many responses that weren't very nice.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: HDkutz
> Because when people say they have a service dog and they don`t it creates issues with the general public and business owners, The ones who suffer because of people skepticism are the people who really need their service dogs and will come under that scrutiny. Even real SDIT don`t come under the ADA rules but many business owners offer them that courtesy.
> 
> I only looked at his introductory thread and saw this pup wasn`t being raised to be a service dog and only possibly a S&R dog.





> Originally Posted By: HDkutz
> You might at some point train him to be a working dog.


Did you see how old his puppy is??? Look at his signature. Barely 10 weeks old, and he is doing safe socialization, training will come later....


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

huh...guess you are taking the posts in a way different way than I have. It appeared to me that Erich was only pointing to one person for not coming back to this thread.









Jenn...when my FIL was sick with cancer we were allowed to bring his dog in. The nurses brought him down to the reception area so he could see her. It raised his spirits like nothing else could. A therapy dog doesn't even come close to seeing your own dog!! IT's great that the hospitals are starting to realize the therapeutic affect a person pets have on their ability to heal.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

If anyone follows my posts they will see that I strongly oppose fakers. But, I didn't see anything where TitonsDad made me think this was his intent. Here is someone who has never had a SD and has not started his dog's training. He is not going to be an "expert" but like many of us wants to learn and is willing to listen to someone who approaches him in a helpful manner and not just to grill him. 

TitonsDad, please continue to post about your pup. We do have a section here that you may like to visit to learn more about SDs. And please feel free to ask questions as you go through the various stages with your pup.


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## DogGone (Nov 28, 2009)

I think many people are being uptight about the definition of “service dog”. The definition and usage of the phrase varies throughout time, and application, etc….

I use the term very loosely because it has changed so much and because I don’t necessarily agree with the narrow definition. The government itself is somewhat vague and conflicting on the definition; even within the confines of a disability helper dog.

I feel that all working dogs are service dogs; however the term service dog seems to have become more specifically for medical disability helper dogs.

Back in the 70s before I even heard about a “therapy dog“, “helper dog“ or “service dog“; my family trained a GSD a few hand signals; sit, come, stay, lie down, rollover, fetch, bring, and give. We didn’t visit patients, we took (deaf and dumb children) patients on field trips with our scout group. We took them on nature hikes, canoe trips, camping trips, swimming, and we often took our dog. To many of them playing fetch with a dog was a dream come true. The doctors and nurses and children had never seen or heard of a dog that the deaf and dumb could use hand signals to command and play with.

I feel that what we may have started may have become “therapy dogs” and “helper dogs”.

I’m dyslexic so I often don’t use language correct myself. I may not be hip with much of the advances and the jargon but in many ways I am a trailblazer. I think some of you need to get off your high horse. Stop bashing people just because they don’t use the same jargon that you do. Don’t assume that just because they don’t use the same jargon that you do, or in the same way that you do; that they are an imposter/poser or they are someone to look down on for some other reason. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. Criticism often can be constructive. We can all learn from each other.

Is not a military dog in a service? Is not a police dog in a service? Aren’t many search and rescue dogs in a service. In an even more loose aspect isn’t even a herding dog in service in some respects?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Just wanted to add, I would be a little cautious about a dog being both a protection dog and also be a service dog. There was recently a post about this topic on another forum I visit with a lot of service dog people and the consensus was it's not a good mix.


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## HDkutz (Jan 9, 2010)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDad
> 
> Wow, seems you have a personal agenda against me for whatever reason. Almost feels like I have a stalker here especially someone that has 6 posts as of now.


Actually post count doesn`t really make an expert or not. I have over 30 years experience specifically with the breed, training and even rescue.
I tend to jump the gun with the SD thing as over the years I`ve seen a lot of people use that title to avoid private property rules.
I apologize if I jumped the gun. I hope you can understand that when some people actually do that if hurts those that truly need a SD.

PS: depending an which group you choose to do SD training with you may have an issue with protection training. I don`t but some groups may.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Before too many people start worrying about the pup being protection trained and being a SD it might be best to find out what TitonsDad means by the term. Remember he is new to the GSD breed and also has never had a SD before and so his terms might not mesh with some of ours who have been around either or both for awhile. 

His idea of a "protection dog" might be completly different than a SchH protection trained dog or a Personal Protection dog. 

The DOJ has issued letters on SDs and protection. When they speak of minimum protection of course they are speaking of a dog that may be trained to keep it's handler from wandering into traffic or some other such task and not a snarling dog ready to bite anyone approaching the PWD. 

So please ask first when someone uses a term and make sure what they mean before taking them to task.


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## Pedders (Mar 22, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDadIt's hard to convey the tone in writing. I guess the way I typed "thing" wasn't nearly as close to the way he said it.


I'm just curious; if you're deaf, how could you tell his tone? Is it possible to lip read tone/inflection?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

A person can be legally blind and have some vision. Many many blind people can see rough blurry shapes or lighter/darker areas. Some can see the general shape of a person but not the features or even enough to see if it is a man or woman. They may be able to see the wall of a building but not be able to find a door. 

A person can be legally deaf and have some hearing. They may be able to hear some sounds but not know what direction the sound is coming from. They may be able to hear close up but not more than several feet away. Some people may not be able to hear the exact words (here they lip read) but they can tell the tone of voice. They may be completely deaf in one ear and only have partial hearing in the other.


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## onyxena (Oct 24, 2007)

I personally do not like dogs in stores like Target. Legitimate service dog, fine, but I do not like everyone's pets everywhere. We all know how irresponsibe many dog owners are!
I do not enjoy stepping in dog mess, especially when I am shopping for dinner! I do not appreciate strangers dogs barging in to me for attention and pawing and licking me. I do not like flexi-type leads wrapping around my legs as the owner giggles at how cute their widdle furry bundle of joy is. I do notwant to have to worry about my daughter running into a strange dog and getting snapped at while I am trying to get my shopping done. 
I do take my dogs a few places that are dog friendly. Like petsmart, feedstores, farmers markets, parks etc. I think having some places to take dogs where people are EXPECTING to encounter dogs is wonderful. But many people do not like pets the wsay some of us do. Why should they have to deal with our pets? There is always some added risk with bringing dogs together into unfamiliar environments. Why increase the odds by having everyone and not just dog owners exposed to them?


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ILGHAUS
> A person can be legally deaf and have some hearing. They may be able to hear some sounds but not know what direction the sound is coming from. They may be able to hear close up but not more than several feet away. Some people may not be able to hear the exact words (here they lip read) but they can tell the tone of voice. They may be completely deaf in one ear and only have partial hearing in the other.


This describes my wife and I both.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

And facial expressions play into determining a tone also.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08And facial expressions play into determining a tone also.


Ding ding ding... As well as body language...


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Woohoo!! What'd I win?!!!???


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Jax08Woohoo!! What'd I win?!!!???


A year's worth of free pet sitting for your GSD. Just ship him/her to me to begin your membership.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

How about a boxer or two instead? LOL


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

I'll pass on the boxers. I've had 3 at one time and that was a handful of ultra-hyper kidney beaning, let's knock over everything we can excitement.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: TitonsDadI'll pass on the boxers. I've had 3 at one time and that was a handful of ultra-hyper kidney beaning, let's knock over everything we can excitement.










Now add a GSD tail and a nervous doberman...we have alot of things "packed away".


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## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

Haven't read the comments in this thread, only the original post. Based off of that, I think the OP may be a bit selfish. As much as I would love to take Damian everywhere I go, I do understand that people have allergies, insurance purposes in most stores, also, what if someone just didn't like GSD's? Whether they are scared of them or any reason for that matter, they have a right to grocery shop and not have to worry about things like that. Sure you get mad about the way the employee talked you, but in the end, you were wrong. 

I know this sounds rude and I apologize, but to some extent you have to understand that your dog is still a pet, not just a cool guy you want to tag along with everywhere you go. I love my dog. He gets the best, even more than me. He costs me about $280 a month just in RAW pre-made food. I can't deal with making it myself, but I don't make him suffer for my actions. But some of the members on this site I honestly believe care more about there pets than their family, haha. I know its just my opinion, but at some point you have to draw a line. In your case, you just have to shop for groceries without your dog.


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## TitonsDad (Nov 9, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: ch3ckpo1ntHaven't read the comments in this thread, only the original post. Based off of that, I think the OP may be a bit selfish. As much as I would love to take Damian everywhere I go, I do understand that people have allergies, insurance purposes in most stores, also, what if someone just didn't like GSD's? Whether they are scared of them or any reason for that matter, they have a right to grocery shop and not have to worry about things like that. Sure you get mad about the way the employee talked you, but in the end, you were wrong.
> 
> I know this sounds rude and I apologize, but to some extent you have to understand that your dog is still a pet, not just a cool guy you want to tag along with everywhere you go. I love my dog. He gets the best, even more than me. He costs me about $280 a month just in RAW pre-made food. I can't deal with making it myself, but I don't make him suffer for my actions. But some of the members on this site I honestly believe care more about there pets than their family, haha. I know its just my opinion, but at some point you have to draw a line. In your case, you just have to shop for groceries without your dog.


The party left 2 days ago. Thanks for showing up late.


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## ch3ckpo1nt (Nov 30, 2009)

Party isn't over until the fat lady sings, or when the OP quits posting.


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## bigboy (Sep 21, 2009)

you are right if it was a small dog cause my dad my aunt and my cousin was in a super target and i think it was in Colorado a woman had a small dog in her dog purse and no one cared.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

I read the whole thing - wow this is a long thread







though I admit I may have skimmed a few posts!








for being honest with the Assistant Mgr - and







to him for being a jerk, though he was probably right.

I've said since Dante was about 7 months old that he would have been a great hearing alert dog. With no training what so ever he started running to the phone when it rang, to the cell phone (where ever it is) when it rings and if I don't shut off my clock alarm he pokes me with his nose until I do. 

These GSDs are smart smart dogs!!!


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