# Puppy is home and yelped for three hours...



## Mike.D30 (Dec 24, 2007)

I brought my puppy home Saturday and he seems to be adjusting well, I'm walking every hour to two hours, feeding him three times a day and he eats everything no problem (actually seems still hungry after eating). He's very nice to my kids and they love him, so everything was going great... Until last night.

Last night was the first night we tried to gate him in the kitchen, he howled and yelped literally three hours. He sounded like someone was murdering him for three hours. Finnally I took him out for his walk and I slept on the couch and he curled up on the floor next to me with no problem. He actually cries and licks my face when he needs to go out, the only time he has had an accident since coming home Saturday was when he was gated in the kitchen, poo and urine everywhere.

We haven't crate trained yet because when I put him in there he goes balistic. I've started puting treats in his crate and fedding him in there so he starts thinking it a good place. But bottom line he won't go in there to sleep.

My wife and I go back to work tomorrow and we don't know what to do with this guy, if we crate him we're afraid he'll mess his crate all over and ruin the crate training by becoming a dirty dog. We don't want to gate him in the kitchen because he messes it and goes crazy I have no doubt he would've cried five or six hours if I let Him (walks in between).

What do we do? I thought I had this figured I would walk him hourly or every two hours during the day and monitored feedings 15 minutes at a time, three hours in the crate followed by a walk through the night. That plan is not going well because this guy can't stand to be away from us and I don't know how he's going to handle us being gone for as long as five hours.

Please HELP ME!


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## LUV_GSDs (Oct 22, 2006)

Can you bring him to work How old is the puppy?


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Micheal, it sounds like you little guy has figured out that if he makes enough noise you will come to his rescue. They usally cry for a little while and then settle down. As for the crate put him in for short amounts of time and try to make it a good experience for him. Puppies can be a bit tring at times but remember that they are just like children and every experience to them is NEW.


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## doreenf (Nov 7, 2007)

Don't forget all this is new for your little one. Can a neighbor or someone you know come over and let your puppy out? Can you put a radio or tv on while you are gone so he feels he is not alone. I did this with Izzy for about a month. She had the tv on and her crate was where she could see it.(She loved watching westerns)LOL! I would still put him in his crate,can you make it smaller? The puppy probably still mess in his crate, that happens sometimes. Bath time after.The crate is still safer than leaving him in the kitchen.


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## Mike.D30 (Dec 24, 2007)

The puppy is 9 weeeks and my wife and I tring to be patient we aren't hollering at him or anything. But he literally cried and barked for three straight hours and at that time is time for his walk. He would've continued if I hadn't let him sleep next to me.

I've seen seperation anxiety before but nothing like this, he's a great puppy and I love his termpermant. But we gotta figure out what to do with him. I feel bad because my wife is the one who will come home to the mess everyday and have to clean the crate and the dog. I don't get home from work until 8:00 at night and I leave at 5:30 AM, so I can walk him in the morning and through the night but other than that my poor wife will do with coming home to a messed crate. The dog reacts so adversely to the crate that I'm afraid he's going to hurt himself.

I've started giving him treats and puting him in the crate for short times but tomorrow is plunge time no one will be home all day so he'll be alone and in the crate I can't really put it off anymore.

Unfortunately we are new to the area so we don't know any people yet that could let him out. Thanks for your replies, I'll try leaving a t.v. on for him.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

My Ava had a hard time adjusting to the crate, and we had several accidents along the way, but every evening I spent over an hour with her and treats, everytime she looked at the kennel I praised her, then I would wait until she took a step towards the kennel on her own, then praise the heck out of her, Jackpot with treats!! and so on, I would put some treats in the kennel and wait, if she went in after them, she got another jackpot. I also put a self winding clock in with her, I cant remember who told me this, but the ticking I guess kind of sounds like a heartbeat, I would wrap in a towel or put inside a hand puppet. I wound it every night, I also put her crate in my room, sometimes I had to lay on the floor next to it. This helped me tremendously, now when I say it's night night time, she races up the stairs and throws herself inside the kennel, if I'm not fast enough, she comes looking for me, to tuck her in and close the door. Good Luck, I know how you feel! Oh and sometimes I would wake up with her yelping like she was being murdered in her crate too, the wind up clock helped with that too.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Oh, one other thing, while you are doing this, dont shut the door, allow her/him to come out, then start praising for staying in there then closing the door for a few minutes.....then opeining and starting all over again. It takes a lot of time, but the rewards are worth it (a good nights sleep







)


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## tibvixie101 (Nov 26, 2007)

make sure the crate space for the pup is only big enough for him to get in and lay down. if he has room to walk around he will mess in one area and sleep in another. We used the treat method as well and after about a few days he knew the "bed" command and would run to his crate as fast as he could. if i didnt get there fast enough he'd come back looking for me like "i went in my bed, now where my cookie?!" 

Sit with him by the crate and give him a treat. Put some treats in the crate and when he goes in to get it, give him the command you want to use to get him in there and then jackpot treats while hes still in there, but DONT close the door. when he comes back out, repeat the step. When he gets used to doing this, put a traeat in the crate, give the command, and let him go on, try to close the door just while he eats the cookie, then open it so he can come back out. eventually, you can increase the amount of time you leave him in there, once he's in, treat, and walk out of the room, then come right back and let him out, leaving him in longer each time. And be sure to put something for him to chew on when you get to the point of leaving him in his crate. Puppies need something to chew on as their teeth are growing and bothering them. Try a kong toy, or a small tire, something hard he cant break and swallow, but something for him to knaw on to keep him occupied. It will happen, be patient and persistant, and remember when doing these little excersises to keep them short in time, and fun for the puppy. training at this age should be more like a game to them!


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

The thing that does seem like seperation anxiety is the pee and poo otherwise your pup is EXACTLY like Cooper. My first shepherd so I was suprised how vocal they can be. Quite dramatic. 
My boy went into the crate fighting and kicking but it was the only safe spot I had to leave him. I have the crate in my bedroom. Every hour the first night he would cry, pant, howl, scream. I would put my hand through the slates until he eventually settled, just to start up the next 20-40 miniutes. I did let him out to potty and then had to carry and stuff him back in his crate. Poor boy. Not a fun first night home. This slowly got better over a week. Now he goes in at night by himself. He still resists his afternoon nap but once in he is quiet.

The difference and your big problem is the deficating. Maybe the kitchen was too large and he will not be so freaked by the crate. Also you have made it worse by giving in and letting him sleep by you on the couch. 

It does get SLOWLY better. I could not shower on my own without hearing Cooper howl and pace on the otherside of the door. He is still velcroed to my side but much more secure when left alone.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Ailyn,
you deffinately said it so much better than I did, by the way, whenI said an hour, I meant we would play by the crate for that long while she got used to being near it, with out having to go in...


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Unfortunately, I believe that this is as much a confidence - temperament (ie genetic) issue as much as a training issue. These pups have genetic insecurity or lack gtentic confidence. A normal stable pup may protest a bit, but will settle in a crate rather quickly, esp if given positive reinforcement to be there in the form of a treat IMO. They should have some bedding with a familar scent, a toy even, and they should settle within 10-20 minutes MAX. This hours long anxiety is not "normal". I hate to beat a dead horse, but people breeding their pets to sell companion puppies because pups from titled parents are too expensive really have no insight into genetic temperament and why we test dogs via schutzhund. 

Sorry if this disturbs any of you, but the board is supposed to be for people to learn from, and perhaps this will make a few people think about why we test our breeding stock.

Hope it goes better for the poor pup.

Lee


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## tibvixie101 (Nov 26, 2007)

aw dont be so modest Besty, you said the same thing, lol i just had the time to spell it all out!! LoL have a good day!


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## Mike.D30 (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfstraum the pup's parents are both AKC certified and have both trackers and schutzhund in his lineage. Maybe it is a genetic problem but I did my homework, you have no idea how a pup is going to react until he comes home.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

Michael, if the breeders did not work with the pups by separating them from momma from time to time, this could have added stress. It may be the first time he has ever been alone. I would have him in the same room with you at night, being able to hear you breathe will help a lot I think. Many times you will hear of GSD's referred to as "velcro" dogs, this is so true, they want to be in every part of your life. You now are this baby's provider, for love, comfort, protection, food etc....his momma did that before.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Crate him in the bedroom with you. He may go nuts in the crate at first, but he should settle down after a while. He'll be more comfortable and secure in a crate (it's more den like) and near you. Young puppies aren't used to being alone, and it can cause them a lot of stress until they get used to it.

Crating him will also prevent him from having any potty accidents or getting into other trouble which is bound to happen if you give a 9 week old puppy free run of a room overnight and will not only lead to you having a mess to clean up, but will also allow him to build bad habits and learn that it's OK to get into things and potty in the kitchen.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

When I brought home my first gsd I thought she should sleep in the very large bathroom downstairs. She had been in a shelter and I figured this would be much nicer situation than that. HA!!!!! She screamed her head off in there! It sounded like someone as killing her! I brought her upstairs in the bedroom with me and never had a problem again.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Michael, sounds like you really have a persistent little guy. It can be tramatic for a pup to leave the litter if they weren't the strongest pup in the litter, nto saying at this point your pup has weak nerves. I don't know if the person you got your pup from started giving the pups some time alone before you got him. He is scared and lonely. 

Some tips to try:

Leave the radio or TV on, some times human voices are all the need to comfort them.

Get some nice cuddly toys and or get a wind up clock, wrap it in a towel and put it in the crate with the pup.

Bring the Crate in your bedroom.

Make sure the pup has had plenty of excercise before bed time.

Val


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Michael. I wanted to add pups are use to cuddling with one another.

There is a thread in the breeder section about a single pup, there are pictures of the pup cuddling with toys (it's litter mates).
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=541749&page=1&nt=11&fpart=10


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)

I have brought puppies home and the first few nights in the crate were crying and sounding generally miserable for quite a while. So when I got my last puppy I decided to put the crate as far away from my bedroom as possible so when she screamed in the crate initially I didn't hear it. Of course we set the alarm clock to take her out in the middle of the night and she never had any accidents in her crate. After a couple of nights not a peep out of her. I am glad we didn't give in and take her out which would just reinforce the crying. 

If I were you this is exactly what I would do. Good luck.


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## chruby (Sep 21, 2005)




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## JAguirre (Dec 19, 2000)

I've taken my pups to work with me the first few months I have them. Luckilly, I can park indoors and I own a Suburban. I crate them in the back and leave my windows down. I attach a water bottle (big guinea pig type) to the crate so they have water. 

I go out every few hours to walk them, let them potty, etc. At lunch, I train basic "stuff." I can keep an eye on them, they get used to the crate, and ... it helps w/ bonding IMO. 

If you can do this - and it does take a while to get used to - it sets your mind at ease during the first few months of worrying about the puppy.

Good luck!!


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

Wow. It seems a huge leap to say because the pup is having issues that he is genetically inferior. The phrase climbing up the wrong tree jumps to mind rather than your "beating a dead horse."

I do agree with the message of improper breeding, just think it was ill placed. IMO.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

I have to agree with you Michelle, I personaly think we are here to offer support and advice from our own experiences. I certainly agree there are some horribly irresponsible breeders out there, I volunteer with a rescue group so I see this first hand all the time. Even if there were a problem with the pup (which I certainly would not guess from the discussion so far), it certainly isnt the pup's fault and he deserves to be given the tools to succeed. In my experience nothing replaces love and patience in dealing with any frightened animal. But I also must point out, that most GSD's can be predisposed to having "confidence" issues. IMO this is where most of the "display" that they show comes from. "I'm going to look really, really scary, if they leave I wont have to back it up".


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I completely disagree that GSDs are "predisposed to having confidence issues". Soundly temperamented ones are not, thus this is one area where the quality, or lack thereof, in the breeding makes a huge impact. 

But I do agree that the idea of a 9 week old pup crying when left alone being a sign of poor breeding or poor temperament seems quite a stretch, and a statement to the affect that the pup is doing this because of breeding is completely useless as far as this thread goes since it provides no helpful information on how to deal with the puppy.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote: Michael, if the breeders did not work with the pups by separating them from momma from time to time, this could have added stress. It may be the first time he has ever been alone.


I agree with that and all of Chris Wild's post.

IF your puppy is like most of ours, they have been surrounded by, with, on, among, it's mom and littermates 100% of the time it's entire life. So to 'suddenly' not only remove it from all those known pups/dogs, but also go to a new place with new people and then isolate them ALONE at the other end of the house?????

I'd be shocked if my puppy didn't scream like a maniac! 'I'M ALL ALONE YOU FORGOT ME I'M HERE HERE HERE HERE HERE!!!!!!!!!!!' And when we 'stupid human's' can't seem to hear, well I guess the puppy just needs to scream louder!

I't works best for me to have the pup out when I'm home, and I use closed doors and baby gates to keep it in the room with me. At night, it's the crate but in my bedroom and beside my bed. So I'm right there making annoying people sounds the puppy can hear and feel reassured about. (not abandoned!). 

When I do leave the house, and no one is home, that's the other time I crate. And generally my pups quite very rapidly cause they can't hear me moving around so don't bother screaming to get me to release them.

EXERCISE EXERCISE EXERCISE! Even a miserable lonely puppy will fall asleep much faster if they are worn out from meeting people and walking and car rides and running around....................


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

You are correct Chris, I did not mean to imply this is a common genetic fault, only that GSD's are very sensitive to their environment and all that is in it. I was trying to say, they CAN BE predisposed, not that they are as a rule or even should be. Unfortunately I see the bad end of the spectrum too often I suppose. But again, all that aside, I just really wanted to emphasize that this is a baby that just needs to be re-assured that he is still loved and cared for reguardless of why he is scared.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

I always give new pups at least one toy and something that smells like me. this is very reassuring for a pup. When I sent my pups home, I send one of their toys that has familar smells on it. It helps make the transition easier.
One of our foster homes for the rescue would put a towel in with the pups and then cut it up and give each family a strip to take home.

You also might want to purchase a DAP dispenser. It helps quite a bit with the stress. I also recommend getting some rescue remedy and walnut from a health food store. The rescue remedy helps with stress and walnut helps the pups with adapting to the change. You can give the pups a couple drops in its mouth, or just put the drops in his water.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Before answering I looked at the posters other posts including a description of the breeder. A pup who is so distraught he screams for 3 hours when left loose in the kitchen and - to quote the OP "messes it and goes crazy" is not normal. the OP also is afraid to crate the pup because his statements indicate the pup "goes balistic" and other wise indicates he defecates when stressed. This is more than simple training. Sorry. AKC is not any indication of quality, look at their website, it states this. And Sch titles generations back are not indicative of anything either. And yes, I believe you should be able expect certain behaviors out of a puppy. All pups WILL fuss some, but 3 constant hours of "going crazy" is not normal, and you will have your work cut out for you. Sorry if this is an unpopular opinion, but this is not the norm for a puppy.

Lee


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## Calipso (Jan 10, 2008)

A crate is a good idea. I had a towel draped over mine so that it looked more like a den. My puppy didn't like to be left alone at all I when I first got her. Now that's she's passing 11 weeks, she's gotten much better.

From what I've read, you should not comfort a puppy who cries from being alone since this only re-enforces the undesired behavior. What I did with mine is just walk by so she knew I was in the vicinity, but otherwise ignore her. Once she settled down, I would go spend some time with her.


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## Mike.D30 (Dec 24, 2007)

The strangest thing the dog seems to attach himself to me so when I put him in the crate he goes wild, last night I had my wife place him in the crate and he wimpered for about five minutes then stopped. We got nervous that he was hurt in there so my wife checked on him and he was awake just looking around. He started up about three hours later so once he quieted down I took him out and I admit I caved and I let him camp out on the sofa with me. But he also went into the crate this morning with little to no protest when my wife had to take me to the bus depo (hence why the pup can't come to work with me I work in Manhattan and it isn't possible).

So it appears that as long as my wife crates him at night and I'm out of view he's O.K. with it, if I do it he takes it incredibly personnally.

I appreciate the concern but I'm not ready to deduce that my puppy who was obtained by a breeder who co-owned the dam with an experienced breeder with over 30 years experience who did everything right by the numbers is somehow genetically deficient because he had a bad night in a large kitchen the second day away from his litter and mother... I don't want to insult anyone but that is simply nonsensical, and I question someones knowledge who would even suggest something so absurd.

The pup looks fantastic has a great disposition and definitely doesn't like his crate (but I'm sure he isn't the first).


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## Mike.D30 (Dec 24, 2007)

Wolfstraum I know it's a public forum and post if you want but if you wouldn't mind I don't want your advice I think you're a Geman Shepherd snob, and I find your input in this topic worthless.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Micheal, I think what you are doing is fine, but don't baby your pup to much as it will become a custom to this and you will have a harder time training him. Maybe your pup has already figured you as the softy between you and your wife. Sometimes we have this problem with our pups. Pups I feel are sort of like kids they push us and figure out how much they can get away with. Sometime the easier softer way just come up and bites us in the butt. Our current litter is kind out of the norm, Saturday I took them to the vet for first exam and all the way there they were quiet and didn't scream one bit. I had to check them twice on the way up and they were liking the ride. Just like car rides most pups scream due to it being something that is new and scares them and the more they ride the more use to it they get. Everything is done in small steps and often. I was the same way you were when we got our first GSD and with experience we seem to get better or the dog does, which ever comes first. Good luck with your little guy and remember patience and moteration


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## doreenf (Nov 7, 2007)

Michael, Do not worry ,your puppy sounds like he is coming along. You and your puppy will be fine, it just takes time. I completely understand where you are coming from. Take care and hug your little one!


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## doreenf (Nov 7, 2007)

Oh I forgot to add my gsd puppy was from a puppy mill, not knowing who her parents were she is a joy! No she never came from any titles but that does not make her any less loved.


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## Cicada (Dec 7, 2007)

What, you think THAT'S BAD?
I learned a lot from my puppy's persistent howling and barking, I guess. Unfortunately, the people I live with are as tolerant as... intolerable people. Or something. One little bark was enough to get them going. I could care less.

There is an alternative method, I taught myself, that might help.

When Benny would cry before bed, I would open the crate. The moment he stepped out, I turned his butt around and made him walk back in. He'd turn around, come out, get turned around, walk in, etc. etc.
Eventually, he'd curl up in the back of the crate with a dignified 'huff' and sleep. Sometimes, I go back to bed to have him start yapping at me again. I continued to do this until he found out that every time he barked, he had to go through this frustrating process.

Now Benny prefers his crate, and I give him a treat every night before bed.

It's tiring, I know, but it helps!









And hey, if crying and wanting to be with you makes your puppy a piece of genetic trash, then Benny's the sewage of the gene pool.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

All puppy's cry specially when they were taken out of a enviroment that they grew up in. Think of your self being taken away from what you know and stuck with people that are strangers and then you get stuck in a crate. We use big cages to let them get use to this way they can see everything that is going on and don't feel isolated from everything and everyone.


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## Mike.D30 (Dec 24, 2007)

Maybe it is a genetic thing I don't know, my poor wife comes home to a crate that is messed everyday, she changed her work schedule to work 5 half days instead of 3 full days so the puppy won't be in the crate for long. I excersized the pup, he deficated on his morning walk before I went to work, his eating schedule is structured and still my wife came home and the crate was messed. No matter what when left alone he messes his crate, he simply isn't adjusting at all or trying not to mess his crate. I know dogs have a natural tendancy not to mess where they sleep but my pup seems to be lacking in that or is just so nervous he can't hold it. It isn't normal for a puppy to dirty his crate everytime he's put in there. It isn't too large I have a divider in it. I'm exhausted, haven't slept more than an three hours a night since Friday night. I'm actually getting depressed over this and it feels pretty hopeless. I don't know how to do anymore, I wouldn't know how to dedicate more time, love and attention to this puppy.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

How long is he in the crate when no one's hme? Does he ever mess in the crate when you are home, or only when no one is home?


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

I have been thinking about you. Exhaustion can make everthing look bleak. 
Did your pup finally settle? Sounded like seperation anxiety.
Hope all is well.


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Micheal hows the pup doing? Any progress


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## Bluewolf (Apr 20, 2006)

Michael, I just wanted to let you know that I am having a bumpy start with my 9 week old's crating as well, you are definitely not alone. I'm trying different things and listening to people's advice. When I figure out what works I will post back to let you know if you have not already found a routine for your own pup.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

So if he's 8-10 weeks, that's about 2 hours that he should be able to hold it. APPROXIMATELY! Sometimes when they get tired, they sleep right through the 2 hours. Sometimes when they get tired, they sleep right through the 2 hours and go potty in their sleep! JUST LIKE BABIES! Weird, huh!







It's because they are babies. 

I always tell people to consider what you are asking of your puppy. When potty training children-at well over the equivalent of when a puppy is required to learn-you are asking them to pick up physical cues through messages in their little brains that they don't quite understand. The process of not messing ourselves is truly complex! This is why we see regression in the elderly who have dementia. So that's one very important thing to remember-you are asking for a very complex process to occur and the fact that dogs can do it so young truly astounds me! 

They also, like children, potty train at different rates from each other. I had a foster puppy who would go on command at 9 weeks. She was unreal. Made one mess once. Little boy puppies often seem to be slower like their human counterparts! I had a male foster who would fill his crate pan with pee and when he got adopted peed in bed with his adopters while he slept. Good thing they loved him because I know the volume he could produce. He's fine now.









I am not what I would consider the best potty trainer in the world. I will get focused on something else, the puppy is sleeping and I'll figure I can wait and I end up with a mess. So what I try to do is set an alarm when I am home-cell phone or whatever, for those intervals, except I make it closer to 1-1.5 hours for baby puppies. It's tiring!!!!!! Then at night the puppy is in a crate next to me and if they are capable of waking me to go out, I go with that. If not, I set an alarm for that too-but for more like 4 hours. This is not foolproof of course! 

Smaller crates often help. Good play time (aka exercise) helps with the whole crate thing. Sometimes the screaming wackies happen with being OVER tired though, so you really need to be in tune with the puppy on this. 

Also, what vet checks have you done? Have they done a fecal or worming? I had that one foster checked for diabetes! I figured there was no way he could be such a piglet (and this was up til 7 months that he was doing this at my house/his new home). But he was. EWWWW! Thank goodness he was so sweet! 

Regarding his behavior-is this your first puppy/dog of your own? Can you find a puppy mentor somewhere? Someone who is soft/nice with puppies and who can observe in real life what is happening?


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## Bluewolf (Apr 20, 2006)

Jean, even though this thread was started to help Michael, I find your post very useful too, thank you









I agree with using the alarm system, I've set my cellphone with 4 time periods: 3 for throughout the day and one for middle of the night. I've also regressed to using the pups smaller airline crate and he had a full night with no mess. As far as cries he had maybe two periods where he cried for 3 or 5 minutes but that was all. Also at the prompting of his breeder, I covered his whole crate with a light blanket to make everything completely dark and after some momentary whining and barking he settled down and went right to sleep. If he moaned or cried in the middle of the night I moved something around in the room so he knew I was there and this seemed to calm him.


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