# Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Puppies?



## Fearless Phyl (Sep 24, 2000)

I have two six month old puppies, Kwazi and Ngozi. When I brought them home at nine weeks they were eating Fromm Puppy Gold. I asked my vet if I could switch them over to a raw diet since I had fed my adult dog Northwest Naturals,Chicken & Salmon and Turkey. He did very well on it and had very little "waste", which was an added plus for a 100lb dog. My boys were just diagnosed with Demodectic Mange and I researched and found out a weakened immune system causes dogs to get this. A dear friend told me that she thought the raw food may be the reason for the weakened immune systems in the the boys. Anyone have an opinion? The raw food does have added vitiamins,minerals and vegetables, it's not just raw "meat".


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think from all i have read about raw feeding, you need to also add extra supplements. like a real good multiple vitamin, and a few other things, to make up for some things that would be contained in kibble.
it takes alot of research to make sure your dog is getting all the stuff they need when home cooking or raw feeding.


debbie


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

This is preprepared raw so it should have the appropriate vitamins, etc. in it. My cat eats preprepared raw (Nature's Variety) and is 15 years old and is doing amazingly well. 

If the food is prepared correctly then it should have adequate nutrition. Are there any other factors that might be causing stress to their immune systems?


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

What you are feeding is not considered by most raw, prey model feeders a true raw diet. A weakened immune system can be caused by more than just diet. Diet most definitely can help, but if the dog is vaccinated yearly, has chemicals pumped into its body consistently, and also genetically doesn't have the best of luck..those are all factors. 

A raw diet compiled of raw meaty bones as the staple (variety here not just all chicken for example), organ meats (kidneys, spleen, etc)--especially to include liver and my dogs have never been healthier. I do supplement with fish oil capsules to make up for the fact that I cannot buy pasture raised meats, so they are getting enough omega 3s in their diet. A few times a month I also give probiotics. I do give as a snack in their kongs...grain free cans by evangers or similar brands and also grain free treats. When I do this though, their stools tend to be a bit larger just because of the added stuff they are not digesting or using. A raw diet that is not properly researched or done is much worse than a good quality kibble. A person that knows what they are doing and has read up before hand won't look back.







I agree and understand that raw feeding isn't for everyone, but a properly raw fed dog does not have the weakened immune system of a kibble fed dog. 

If you would like to learn a bit more here are some good sites:
http://rawfeddogs.net/
http://rawfeddogs.net/Links
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

Phyllis,

Laura is absolutely correct, and I would only add some muscle meat into that plan. I mix in a variety of meats including chicken, pork necks, fish (tilapia and mackeral) and venison as RMB's and ground beef, beef roasts, pork roasts, venison, ground wild game (a mixture I get from a local wild game specialist at about .80 per pound) for muscle meat and virtually any organ meat I can find mixed in with a small amount of yogurt daily. I add grand flex, salmon oil and vit E for supplements and add small amounts of fruits and steamed vegetables and raw eggs for variety. I often mix dehydrated food (Honest Kitchen) into ground muscle meat as well. Neither of my dogs have ever eaten kibble and were weaned onto goat milk and ground beef. The difference from kibble, even high quality kibble, is astounding. I switched my old male Zeus for the last year of his life and I could not believe how much it affected. Much more energy, his coat changed color and became amazingly soft and no more odors of any kind. 

Don't expect your vet to acknowledge the benefits of raw feeding though. Also, don't expect them to be on board with a minimal vaccination plan either. If you find a vet that will titer instead of trying to pump up your dog with chemicals and supports raw feeding latch on and don't let go!


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

This is what she is feeding:

Turkey Ingredients: Ground turkey, ground turkey bones, celery, peppers, romaine lettuce, watermelon, turkey hearts, turkey livers, flaxseed, dicalcium phosphate, garlic, dried kelp, inulin, salt, potassium chloride, fish oil, parsley, apple cider vinegar, ginger, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, mixed tocopherols (a preservative), rosemary extract, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin D supplement
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude protein - 9.0% min
Crude fat - 5.0% min
Crude fiber - 1.5% max
Moisture - 78% max



Chicken with Salmon Ingredients: Chicken, chicken liver, salmon, ground bone, broccoli, cantaloupe, safflower oil, flaxseed, potassium chloride, dried kelp, inulin, salt, fish oil, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, copper proteinate, manganese proteinate, mixed tocopherols (as preservative), rosemary extract, Vitamin E supplement, Vitamin D3 supplement.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude protein 13.0% min
Crude fat 13.0% min
Crude fiber 1.5% max
Moisture 65% max


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## tracyc (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

Looks like good food to me. I feed a regular BARF-style raw diet, and raised two puppies on it with no problems. I don't think the food is the issue. My understanding is that minor spots of DM arent all that unusual in GSD pups as they build up their immune systems. Luca had a little spot on his face at about 6 months. Wasn't big enough to treat, and it went away by itself in about a month. 

The simple answer to your question is "yes."


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*



> Originally Posted By: LauraC I agree and understand that raw feeding isn't for everyone, but a properly raw fed dog does not have the weakened immune system of a kibble fed dog.


None of my dogs have weakened immune systems? None of them ever had mange either. Although one of my puppies from Emma's first litter did have a few spots of mange within her first year as well as rickets...she was raw fed. More than likely just an improperly fed raw diet BUT the owner was not stupid nor inexperienced and due to this and some other issues stopped feeding raw and went back to kibble. Coincidence? I don't know. I do know that my dogs have no immune problems and are enjoying good health and they are kibble fed.

Any diet/product can cause a weakened immune system in an animal if it is just not working for that animal for some reason...and there are many reasons why a diet may not be the right product for a puppy.

Maybe the OP would like to switch to another prepared raw diet and see if the situation improves? I do know I had my Sheltie on a prepared raw and was watching as he lost pigment and condition....was feeding it correctly etc....it was not working for him and he improved when put back on kibble. One thing I did notice was the low amount of copper in the prepared raw I was feeding as compared to the kibble he was eating.....not all products are created equal and their being raw, premium etc does not mean that a product cannot be lacking in something your dog may be needing. Since is it *both* of these puppies I would be more inclined to suspect diet rather than genetics even though they are related. The odds of them both having this at the same time are unusual......please keep us updated, I am finding this very interesting and would like to know how the pups make out.

JMO
Cherri


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

How do you know you were feeding the proper raw diet? People think that feeding just a diet of all chicken quarters is balanced, for example. Raw feeders strive for balance over time, but a diet of just chicken won't do it and things are definitely lacking. Could you possibly email me or post what your feeding schedule was like on raw or a prepared diet that you said? I am curious.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

Laura I was feeding my Sheltie Nature's Variety Raw Chicken patties as instructed to on the packaging of the product. This was about 3 years ago so I do not know if the product has changed.

Chicken Formula
Nature's Variety Raw Frozen Diet for Dogs and Cats

* Complete and balanced for all life stages
* 95% Chicken, raw ground bone, turkey & liver
* With wholesome fruits and vegetables
* Grain-free
* Made with human grade ingredients
* Antibiotic-free, hormone-free chicken and turkey


Fresh & Healthy Ingredients
Chicken, Raw Ground Chicken Bone, Turkey, Turkey Liver, Turkey Heart, Apples, Carrots, Butternut Squash, Ground Flaxseed, Chicken Eggs, Broccoli, Lettuce, Spinach, Dried Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Parsley, Honey, Salmon Oil, Olive Oil, Blueberries, Alfalfa Sprouts, Persimmons, Duck Eggs, Pheasant Eggs, Quail Eggs, Inulin, Rosemary, Sage, Clove

Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Nature’s Variety Chicken Formula Raw Frozen Diet provides complete and balanced nutrition for all canine life stages. Nature’s Variety Chicken Formula Raw Frozen Diet is formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by the AAFCO Cat Food Nutrient Profiles for All Life Stages.

Handling Guidelines for Safe Use
Please click here for important food safety handling information.

Feeding Instructions
If raw diets are fed as the sole food, feed 1-1/2% to 2% of body weight daily. For more detailed feeding information based on your pet's weight and activity level, please visit our Interactive Feeding Guide.

Sizes Available
A Taste of Raw: 1 lb (approx. 16 medallions)
Medallions: 3 lb (approx. 48 medallions)
Patties: 6 lb (12 patties)
Chubs: 2 lb single chubs, 12 lb box (contains 6 single chubs)



Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein (min) 13.0%
Crude Fat (min) 6.0%
Crude Fiber (max) 2.0%
Moisture (max) 68.0%

Calories
65 per oz

Other Nutritional Information
Carbohydrates: 2.05%

Vitamins
Vitamin A: 12161.55 IU/kg
Thiamin: 1.60 mg/kg
Riboflavin (Vitamin B2): 2.39 mg/kg
Niacin (Vitamin B3): 36.54 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid: 10.12 mg/kg
Pyridoxine (Vitamin B6): 2.02 mg/kg
Folate: 408.85 mg/kg
Vitamin B12: 0.03 mg/kg
Vitamin D: 240.00 IU/kg
Vitamin E: 9.60 IU/kg

Minerals
Calcium: 0.320%
Copper: 1.60 mg/kg
Iron: 145.04 mg/kg
Magnesium: 0.026%
Manganese: 2.40 mg/kg
Phosphorus: 0.256%
Potassium: 0.192%
Selenium: 0.127 mg/kg
Sodium: 0.067%
Zinc: 24.00 mg/kg

Amino Acids
Arginine: 0.802%
Cystine: 0.352%
Histidine: 0.322%
Isoleucine: 0.557%
Leucine: 0.867%
Lysine: 0.929%
Methionine: 0.300%
Phenylalanine: 0.467%
Threonine: 0.490%
Tyrosine: 0.375%
Tryptophan: 0.129%
Valine: 0.589%
Taurine: 0.064%

Fatty Acids
Linoleic Acid (Omega 6): 0.999%
Linolenic Acid (Omega 3): 0.249%
Arachidonic Acid: 0.115%


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

Hi,
Thanks for responding. The dehydrated medallions most definitely would not have been enough nor balanced for your little ones. If I were camping or moving..I would use these in between when I wouldn't be able to feed actual raw meat. When I said that I feed a raw diet here is what I am talking about:

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

If you were feeding those like a person feeds a kibble diet--there is no way that a dog would thrive on those medallions alone. The dogs might have done better at first, but then quickly done worse because the diet is lacking variety completely. I am glad they are doing better now though! Thanks for the info,
Laura


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

I was not feeding the medallions Laura, I was feeding the patties. And it was my Sheltie I was feeding it to who has passed away some time ago. My current dogs all eat kibble as their base diet and have no problems whatsoever.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*



> Originally Posted By: LauraCHi,
> Thanks for responding. The dehydrated medallions most definitely would not have been enough nor balanced for your little ones.


They are not dehydrated. They are frozen raw meat with all of those additional things listed. That's what I feed my 15 year old cat. Her blood work is phenomenal and she looks half her age. 

The preprepared diets are formulated to be a complete and balanced meal. I don't understand why you are saying there is a problem with them. Often the meat sources in these preprepared diets is superior to meat people buy on their own (some of them are organic and free range or grain fed and most are antibiotic and hormone free) when doing a home prepared raw diet. They also come in about 5 different varieties including novel proteins like rabbit and venison. 

That said, some dogs just don't do well on raw food. I had one dog who really couldn't digest it.


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## djpohn (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

With Natures Variety they recommend feeding a variety of their products, not just one kind- like lamb and venision ina ddition to the chicken.

I would question the vaccinations that the pups have received recently - JMO


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*



> Originally Posted By: GS MomWith Natures Variety they recommend feeding a variety of their products, not just one kind- like lamb and venision ina ddition to the chicken.


Not at that time they didn't. Why would I add novel proteins to his diet if he did not need them? Natures Variety is currently recommending people rotate among their products like this raw-canned-kibble not between protein sources. When I was feeding it they had not even developed the dry yet. The food displays the AAFCO statement and should be complete....... these products just like kibbles are not perfect. 

There is no perfect diet....


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

To each their own I guess. I will feed my pets the way I see best for them just like you will. End of story


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

whatever that smiley meant







...just to let you know...the AAFCO means nothing. It doesn't take much to get their statement of approval.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

I don't think we are helping the OP much with her original question. We have gotten off on quite a tangent. 

Returning to the original question and additional questions--

What vaccines have they had? How soon after the vaccines did the mange appear? How bad is the mange?


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*



> Originally Posted By: LauraCwhatever that smiley meant
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Laura that was because you kept making incorrect statements about what I had posted and when I reposted you would say something even more "off" or incorrect. Then you say...end of it.....just felt like hitting myself in the head with a hammer lol That is a need to attempt to embarrass me or something? Um ok....







Nevermind lol I'm just fine with my AAFCO knowledge thanks.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

I am amazed a post said most dogs do not do well on raw. It seems that it is a no brainer that raw will be healthier than processed kibble.
Stress can cause a bout of mange, especially in a young dog.

My sister is nervous about raw so she feeds a premium kibble one meal and a premade raw for the other meal. Also the OP could add some fresh meats once in awhile. Look for sales.

If your dogs can at all handle raw try not to be scared back to kibble. The whole thing is not as complicated as you might think. You are looking for balance over time, not each meal. Who of us eats a balanced diet each day.

Also John is so right about a lot of vets. They just are not educated in nutrition. My vet would die if he knew I fed raw. He also faught me on titering instead of vaccinating. This from the areas leading vet!!!

Bottom line is do your research.

ps. thanks for the forum. I am off to register. It is yet another area I am still learning.


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## EastGSD (Jul 8, 2001)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

Who commented that most dogs do not do well on raw?

I know I didn't and I hope you do not think that is how I feel Michele. I give my dog's raw things, just supplemental and not all the time. I know people who do feed raw and have for some time and have good success....the OP was asking if there can be a problem and I was answering that based on times I knew there were problems.

Hope that explains my pov a bit more? I am *not* anti-raw ....not at all







I just am also not anti-kibble







I am pro nutrition









I think health is something that is had or not and can be had or not on both diets....depending on many factors.

I would love to have you on my forum, everyone is invited!









Cherri


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

If a raw diet could not adequately sustain a growing animal into adulthood, canines, felines, and darn well every true carnivore would never have made it as far as they have and we wouldn't have dogs! Research it carefully, but once you understand what a dog needs and in what quantities, it's a very easy diet to accomplish. If you find good sources, it is much cheaper to feed a true raw diet (carcasses, animal parts, and organs) than premade. You must make sure to have full variety over time. Humans get on just fine if we eat healthful, varied diets, and we would suffer eating the same thing every single day. A few days we may get very little calcium and in a few days we may get a LOT. The thing is, the diet is balanced over time, and quantities do vary, just like in nature. I'm falling into a rut of mostly chicken, so I'm trying to find more sources. My guy gets chicken, beef hearts, occasional pork, tuna, mackerel, turkey, but I need more.

I have not raised a puppy on raw but in researching that, I've read that a puppy needs to eat meals sized for their target ADULT weight! That's a LOT for a little fluffball, but it's the same with human kids- we certainly do a good job of eating our parents out of house and home as we grow up.









Laura posted some good links. Here's another, from a moderator on this board: http://rawdogranch.com/ 

It bears repeating that a poorly planned raw diet is a LOT worse than even a mediocre brand of kibble. If you are not comfortable feeding a true raw diet, stick with a high quality kibble or premade raw until you are ready. Some dogs take to raw flawlessly, others will have a lot of gastrointestinal distress until they adjust. My dog has so far taken a cold-turkey switch and accepted anything and everything I threw at him with perfect poops. Not a feeding time goes by that I am not thankful for his iron stomach as I know lots of dogs do have difficulty adjusting to raw at first since it's so different than kibble.


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## Cooper&me (Dec 18, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

Cherri
Your last post said it perfectly! No one thing is right. I did THINK it was o.k. and even desirable to change protein sourses. Thus if you were doing premase then switch from chix to beef to venison is good. Am I wrong? Also if i went the premade route I would switch between brandds for variety. Such as Brovo, Oma's Pride....


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*



> Originally Posted By: mjb03Cherri
> Your last post said it perfectly! No one thing is right. I did THINK it was o.k. and even desirable to change protein sourses. Thus if you were doing premase then switch from chix to beef to venison is good. Am I wrong? Also if i went the premade route I would switch between brandds for variety. Such as Brovo, Oma's Pride....


my vet is very much into variety. he prefers a raw diet but recommends variety for kibble too. he wants me to try a few different brands of kibble to rotate and to make sure there is enough variety in the raw i feed too. he does not beleive that any animal should eat the same thing every day for their entire life. he said the body will pull what it needs from the food and by providing a proper variety the body will always have everything it needs. if however, they are fed the same thing everyday of their lives and it is lacking in something (maybe the dog needs more of something, etc) it will never get it. i really like his philosophy on feeding, besides the fact he wants me to go out and get whole dead rabbits and other animals and feed those. i feel like i'm doing well, within my limits. 

(my vet is a nutritionist, not the typical vet!)


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*



> Originally Posted By: I_LOVE_MY_MIKKOmy vet is very much into variety. he prefers a raw diet but recommends variety for kibble too. he wants me to try a few different brands of kibble to rotate and to make sure there is enough variety in the raw i feed too. he does not beleive that any animal should eat the same thing every day for their entire life. he said the body will pull what it needs from the food and by providing a proper variety the body will always have everything it needs. if however, they are fed the same thing everyday of their lives and it is lacking in something (maybe the dog needs more of something, etc) it will never get it. i really like his philosophy on feeding, besides the fact he wants me to go out and get whole dead rabbits and other animals and feed those. i feel like i'm doing well, within my limits.
> 
> (my vet is a nutritionist, not the typical vet!)


Oooh, keep this Vet! Tell him to reproduce im self and send them to all of our cities!!!


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## lar07 (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Does Raw Food Have Adequate Nutrition For Pupp*

I wish I could find a vet like that around here!! You are very lucky


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