# Split up my First Fight.... (Lab and Pit)



## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

So as many of you know, we have a 14 year old lab and a 5 year old pit bull who can't be together due to same sex aggression.

Last night, I was going in the kitchen and I thought I'd shut the gate all the way.
Well, Ozzy came through (he can fit through the gate bars), and it swung the gate open when he did.
I couldn't shut it in time, and before I knew it, they were latched onto one another.

Sania was screaming and snapping, Gracie was trying to rip her face off, and the other dogs were trying to jump in. 

I managed to get them close to the gate, but Gracie was latched onto Sania's cheek and Sania had Gracie's entire head in her mouth. I had Sania between my legs and trying to close the gate between them wasn't doing anything, so the only thing I could think of was to try and fight them off of one another.

I had Sania between my legs (not pulling on her, afraid it would do more damage) and punching Gracie in the head as hard as I could.
Eventually I got Gracie to let go, where I promptly slammed the gate shut between them before either one could latch onto the other again.

I stood there for a second in shock, then just fell down and started bawling. I was pretty much vibrating I was shaking so bad.
It was absolutely terrifying.
The other 2 times they got into it, I wasn't here for it. 

I managed to come out without getting bitten (miraculously).

Sania has a hole on the side of her neck, and a small one on her cheek and under her eye.

I think Gracie got the worst of it. She has a fairly deep hole right between her eyes and scrapes under her jaw. She also managed to split her toenail somehow....
I've been keeping their wounds clean with warm water, along with antiseptic spray and betadine.

Considering it's Thanksgiving, let me say- I'm thankful that it wasn't worse than it is, and that I still have all of my appendages.


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## FirstTimeGSD (Jul 31, 2012)

Sounds like a bad situation. Why do you keep two dogs that have proven (3 times now) that there is no way they can safely be around one another?


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Oh geez, that would be terrifying! I'm so glad you're not hurt and the dogs didn't get it worse than they did. I don't know if I could handle a situation where two of my dogs had to be separated so kudos for even managing that on a daily basis.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

They really need oral antibiotics and quite possibly drain tubes if they are going to heal.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

We have gates throughout the house to keep them apart (supposed to, anyway).
It's stressful and a huge hassle, but we figure Sania won't be around for too much longer given her age, so it's a temporary arrangement....

Keeping dogs with same sex aggression in the same household isn't something that should be taken lightly....


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> They really need oral antibiotics and quite possibly drain tubes if they are going to heal.


We're going to get them to the vet, but I'm home alone right now and my mom can't afford to take them both in for emergency visits. (Getting them both to the vet will be a whole-nother adventure....)


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I understand. 
I've just seen nasty wounds develop from small punctures because of how dog's skin is structured. You tend to only see the puncture and not the damage under the skin where the germs get trapped.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I was going to put New Skin on them (liquid bandage) but remembered that punctures can get infected underneath, even if the top part heals.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Why oh why do they always have to do stuff like this on a holiday? 

I'm glad you escaped injury, even if they didn't... I'm sure that if the wounds were serious enough to warrant an emergency visit you can't afford, you'd already be there... so just keep the wounds clean and open until you can see the vet.

I'm a little confused, though... do you and your mom and these three dogs all live together, or are you visiting? I don't know why it's bugging me, but for some reason I thought Ozzy was your only dog.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> I was going to put New Skin on them (liquid bandage) but remembered that punctures can get infected underneath, even if the top part heals.


ESPECIALLY if the top part heals. That is how an abscess starts--the bacteria get injected under the skin, and then the skin heals over the top, and bacteria and pus build up, causing swelling.

If the wound is kept open, the pus can drain out of the body instead of building up inside.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Ozzy's my only dog; the other 4 are my mom's and I live with her.

And yes, if either one suffered more than just a few small puncture wounds, we would have gone to the vet right then. I've been making sure they can stay open and can air out/drain.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Why oh why do they always have to do stuff like this on a holiday?


Yes, or 3 day weekends. If there's a 3 day weekend coming up you can bet someone's gonna get sick or hurt! 

Kono I'm glad you did not get bitten, either


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You live with the dogs, so it is like they are your dogs, I mean how you feel about them. 

Watching two dogs you care about trying to kill each other is one of the worst experiences. You have adrenalin going, and are in danger, and the dogs are getting hurt -- anxiety, as well as physical exertion, and it happens so fast. I so understand the crying afterwards. I usually start shaking and get all weak after the fact. I worry about heart attack. This year I have had a minor scrimmage -- no one hurt between Bear and Milla, and a pretty good fight between Jenna and Ninja. But it has been pretty quiet for a couple of years anyway. I guess I let my guard down a little, or I got better and making sure they were indeed separated.

Why keep dogs that are willing to kill each other? Well, the 14 year old Labrador, it would be kinder to euthanize that dog than to rehome it at this point. It is true, the dog does not have that much longer to live, and there is just something not right about taking the best years a dog has to offer and then give them up when they need us the most. As for the pit bull, you might be able to find a home for a pit that has exhibited SSA, but it is still hard. I am with you on keeping them separated and managing the situation. 

It is not a job for everyone, and if people just cannot manage it, then the PB, would probably be the one I would rehome, Or I would Euth the lab. It is hard either way. We are talking family members here, when you look at the whole picture and the total insecurity of rehoming a dog you love, well I can understand totally why people would just manage the situation.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Most of our big emergencies with the animals always seem to come up when we have something special planned.We've had several nice trips planned,but every time one of the dogs needed expensive vet care. I guess we aren't meant to go.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

I've never had to split up a dog fight with MY dogs ... but I've split up 3 major dog fights at off leash parks (while the owners stand there and point and scream).

It is a HUGE adrenaline rush, and it is terrifying. 

Crying is a completely normal response - you're releasing all those emotions that you just held in check and then everything is safe ... BAM out the come ... no stopping them. And you shouldn't. 

I didn't cry at the dog park, I just took it out on the owners ... LOL ... 

I'm happy to read that all is well with you tho, no bites, and hopefully everything will be fine with the dogs ...


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Gracie is our foster failure dog.

For the first 4 months, they got along fine. After my mom had grown fed up with trying to find a home for her (everyone who called was only concerned about her adoption fee), she decided to adopt her. Not a week after her adoption was official, Sania went after her and they haven't been able to be together since.

If I manage to find a place before Sania's time here is up, she'll be coming with me.

When we had Aiden and Yoda (SSA also) they were both 3 years old. We didn't want to have to manage them for 10 years, so we found Yoda a good home.

If Sania wasn't 13 when they started fighting, I don't think we would have kept Gracie.

We can manage them, and the gates have helped make it easier, but sometimes accidents happen...
Like you said, after there's peace for a while, you kind of let your guard down.... And the second your guard goes down, even for a second, all **** breaks loose....


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I've only serious fights when we had one of our dogs Tova here,who was very dog aggressive.She was passed up many times for adoption and I considered euthanizing her,but she did find a home where there are no other dogs and she has 2 cats and a bunch of horses to keep her busy. 




selzer said:


> You live with the dogs, so it is like they are your dogs, I mean how you feel about them.
> 
> Watching two dogs you care about trying to kill each other is one of the worst experiences.
> 
> It is not a job for everyone, and if people just cannot manage it, then the PB, would probably be the one I would rehome, Or I would Euth the lab. It is hard either way. We are talking family members here, when you look at the whole picture and the total insecurity of rehoming a dog you love, well I can understand totally why people would just manage the situation.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

selzer said:


> You live with the dogs, so it is like they are your dogs, I mean how you feel about them.


You're absolutely right.
Although they're my mom's dogs, I still love them all dearly as if they were my own.
I grew up with two of them (Sania and our other senior) and I love Gracie to bits. Aiden is more like my brother. I love him, but I only like him sometimes, haha.

The only reason I make the distinction between 'her dogs' and 'my dog' is that she pays for their care and I pay for Ozzy's.
Other than that, they're all loved just as much as I would if they were 'mine.'


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I take my hat off to you, you handled an absolutely terrifying situation as well as anyone could ... and I'm sure the majority of us would have also ended up bawling ... that's really frightening!!! Living with two bitches that don't get along can be extremely difficult, especially in your situation where the dogs must be kept separated at all times, both indoors and outside. 

While I've always heard that bitches will fight to the death while males will fight for dominance, I have two males that I swear would fight to the death if they could ... one getting the other down has never stopped them, they just kept ripping into each other. Toys are their fight triggers so I ban toy playing in the house and they get along fine. I keep them separated outdoors where toy playing is always allowed.

Anyway, I'm glad you and Ozzy weren't injured and hope the two girls' injuries mend without problems. Why is it dogs never seem to need an emergency appointment with a vet until after closing hours necessitating a trip to the ER ... Murphy's Law?


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## King&Skylar (Jun 3, 2010)

Breaking up your first dog fight is terrifying! Sounds like you were able to keep a clear head which is better than what I did :crazy: and I'm glad you weren't bit. Kudos to you for keeping both dogs- we have both of ours, too and it isn't easy keeping them separated all of the time.


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

When we had 4 shepherds in the home at once we had 3 females and one male. All was good forever until one day- there was ONE fight. It was all one way- Crazy White did not even defend herself but kept trying to hide. It was fast too. Blood was everywhere (it was a lot to get it off the walls, sofa and curtain later). We loaded each dog into a car and one kid in each car and headed to the vet. I was afraid to put them in crates in the same vehicle! We took them into the ER vet separately (I called ahead) and they took them into separate rooms. I was traumatized. The dogs? Well we muzzled the aggressor initially....but they went right back to cuddling together. It was *very* odd. Never another incident in the house ever.

I however did not recover so easily! I feel for you- it is SO scary!


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## tropicalsun (Jun 7, 2011)

I think it's horrible that your lab is being exposed to this at 14 years old with the caveat "she won't be with us much longer." Really? You are NOT managing this and can't manage this or this incident and the previous two would not have happened. The right thing to do is to find a place for the pit NOW and consider getting another AFTER the lab has passed. Allowing the possibility that your 14 year old lab is going to die in the grips of a pitbull rather than of old age is just irresponsible. Things will be better for you and your mom, your pit and your lab if you find one of them a new home.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tropicalsun said:


> I think it's horrible that your lab is being exposed to this at 14 years old with the caveat "she won't be with us much longer." Really? You are NOT managing this and can't manage this or this incident and the previous two would not have happened. The right thing to do is to find a place for the pit NOW and consider getting another AFTER the lab has passed. Allowing the possibility that your 14 year old lab is going to die in the grips of a pitbull rather than of old age is just irresponsible. Things will be better for you and your mom, your pit and your lab if you find one of them a new home.


who said the pitt was at fault?

Living with bitches is interesting. I completely disagree with your opinion on this. it sounds like the lab didn't take too much abuse.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

tropicalsun said:


> I think it's horrible that your lab is being exposed to this at 14 years old with the caveat "she won't be with us much longer." Really? You are NOT managing this and can't manage this or this incident and the previous two would not have happened. The right thing to do is to find a place for the pit NOW and consider getting another AFTER the lab has passed. Allowing the possibility that your 14 year old lab is going to die in the grips of a pitbull rather than of old age is just irresponsible. Things will be better for you and your mom, your pit and your lab if you find one of them a new home.


I disagree with this too. Accidents happen and are not done on purpose. People every where have dogs separated for this very reason. Is it ideal? No, it actually takes hard work and dedication. Growing up we had this in our home. Yes there were fights and vet visits, but nothing really serious(thank god). Everyone of our dogs grew old in the household and died of old age....not one of us in the house even thought about getting rid of one of them.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't think it's wrong for us to have the mentality that Sania isn't going to be around much longer. It's the truth.

Overall, our dogs live a stress-free life. They don't try to get at each other through the gate; the micromanaging is a hassle at worst, except for when accidents like this happen. Which is what it was- a complete accident.

I don't even know who was'at fault.'
It all happened so quick, all I could think of was "GET THEM APART."

I just thank my lucky stars that it didn't end up worse than it was.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Very similar thing happened here with my two dogs, except I did end up in the ER despite waiting for an opportunity I thought I could separate them and not get bit. Although when I got bit by accident it stopped the fight long enough for us to get the dogs apart (in our case it took one person per dog and if either of us had let go at that point they would have been right back at it). When I got back from the ER I found two punctures on one of the dogs so I cleaned the wounds and put him on oral antibiotics. I would leave the bite wounds alone as long as they've been cleaned and are punctures (not tears) and call the vet for some antibiotics. If the vet will call in a scrip I think you can get them cheap or even free at some pharmacies.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

To me, fights are just another day in the dog world. Granted, usually there's not a lot of bloodshed but it happens from time to time. 
_Anyone_ who owns more than one dog had better not believe they'll always get along 100% of the time.
You are prepared for the worst, but take the best happily and always keep in mind, they are animals.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

FirstTimeGSD said:


> Sounds like a bad situation. Why do you keep two dogs that have proven (3 times now) that there is no way they can safely be around one another?


honestly.. **** happens. My boss has a really serious and substantial male as a house dog that co exists with a neutered male. This dog will rip puppies and correct other dogs BADLY if they get in his face, with little warning. Outside, there is a BM who is the cockiest dog you've ever met for sport work. I don't think he plays with other dogs, he'll mount any female and mostly fight a lot of males, and throw puppies across the house. Not a dog that cares if somebody is near his kennel, and doesn't growl and flip out. He's just used for sport work, and coexists by himself for rounds upstairs with his owner. Then theres a puppy, and a year old dog. 

These dogs get rotated throughout the house on a daily basis and to my knowledge there has been 3 fights between a few of them on different occasions. Sometimes the dogs break the gates. Can't expect OP to put up a concrete wall. Most owners can handle their dogs, although it's a scary and traumatizing thing to see both of your dogs fight. Some dogs are so well connected to their owners and great with their obedience you can usually call them off each other if they're just fighting in defence rather than fighting to try to kill each other.


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## Kaity (Nov 18, 2009)

Wanted to add if my bitches who get along great right now, the 3 year old is biddable and just wants to party all the time with the puppy who is 6months - who I will not be spaying until 2-3 years of age for development, don't get along in the future I'm not going to spay the puppy quicker than expected or get rid of her just because she can't co exist with the 3 y/o. If it they don't mingle, they don't mingle! Just keep them separated.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Once upon a time, I had two of my previous dogs scheduled for a visit to the groomer. I got everything done and loaded them in the Explorer, and was on my way, when I realized I was about 30 minutes ahead of schedule. 

This is so foreign. 

They were getting groomed that day, so as I passed the fair grownds, I figured what the heck?

I pulled over and let the dogs out of the back. We walked way in the back around the baseball fields. I had an old bitch and a yearling dog-pup with me, and they were not related and I thought nothing of letting them go together. 

Well the youngster plowed into the old bitch as he was passing by, and she gave him a quick nip to let him know he shouldn't have done that. Only the youngster wasn't taking to being corrected by anything with four feet at that point, and turned and laid into her. Uhg. I had no fences, no gates no leashes, no extra person, and I had about 150 pounds of dog teet and claws to get apart. 

I put my hand in there to catch the collar. EH! Wrong answer. Someone got me good. I still have an inch long scar on my hand, and that happened about six years ago. Well anyhow, thinking how that would leave a mark, I hiked back to the 4x4, and got in, and pointed at my fighting dogs, and fired it up and pointed in there direction and just drove right to them. 

For some reason, the idea that I would be driving in my car gave them enough pause that I was able to open the back, open a crate, and with one fluid motion sweep up the aggressive pup and deposit him in his crate. It may have helped that the old bitch went underneath the vehicle briefly, but I let no dust fall on the tailgate and bumper in getting them safely crated. 

With blood dripping down my arm, I called the groomer and cancelled, and drove to my father's where we got each maniac out one at a time and checked them all over. Then I drove them home, and put them in their kennels and then I drove to the hospital. 

Accidents happen. I did not get rid of either of those dogs because of that moment of stupidity on my part.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

A little update.

I took Sania to the vet the day after, just in case. Turns out there were a few (deep) holes I missed when I was looking at her, so it's a good thing she went in. 

They found that she has a heart murmur when they did the general exam. They said that we could just see how she does on pain killers and antibiotics for now, but if her neck gets very swollen, we have to take her back in to put drains in. 
We're keeping a close eye on her, since given her age (and heart murmur, apparently), we want to avoid putting her under if we can. 

She's doing good though. Very minimal swelling (I expect there'll be some swelling regardless). She's been drugged up on pain killers. Thankfully she takes her pills without a fuss - pretty much just swallows the whole hot dog piece we give her. 

Gracie's doing fine, too. She just had a hole between her eyes and scrapes under her jaw. 

I think I hit my thumb on a tooth or something, because it's swollen and sore. :/ I'm just glad I still HAVE a thumb.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

Glad to hear that everyone's doing well, under the circumstances. 

Dog fights are NOT fun - for anyone. Thanks for the update, and hope everyone heals with no setback! (including your thumb - you will need it!)


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

people keep saying why keep the dogs? Why doesnt someone from here step up and take one of her dogs in then? Right no one will take them. Look at how many unwanted problem dogs there are out there. You cant just get "rid" of dogs like these cause no one wants them. The dog is 14 years old and the other one is a problem dog. So if someone is not going to step up and keep one of her dogs i would not say "why are you keeping the dogs" its not like there is a line up for these dogs. Most people are not going to take them if you paid them to take them. The op is doing the best she can mistakes will happen. Myabe there is more advice people can give her so future issues can be prevented more. People who had this issue before.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

Kyleigh said:


> I've never had to split up a dog fight with MY dogs ... but I've split up 3 major dog fights at off leash parks (while the owners stand there and point and scream).
> 
> It is a HUGE adrenaline rush, and it is terrifying.
> 
> ...


You really put yourself at risk and split up someone else dogs? Grown men have been killed trying to split up 2 shepherds that they didnt know before.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-turn-him.html You can lose your fingers in a second also. Its not worth the risk unless it is your own dog.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

We've already agreed that if they ever get into it again, we're putting Gracie down. We wouldn't be comfortable rehoming her.

Hopefully, for the sake of both of them, it'll never happen again.

Ever since I split them up, I have a mini heart attack every time the gate opens....


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh, and the swelling in Sania's neck is going down.
She's figured out that the hot dogs have pills in them now, so we have to force them down her throat.

I was looking at where the puncture wounds were again, and if Gracie had a more full-bite, she probably would have ripped her throat out....

We're being extra diligent now making SURE the gate's shut.

I can't wait until I can move out. No more rotating, no more worry, no more stress....


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

When training dogs we always put them up on a "win". If a dog is lame in protection we put them up "hot" without winning their trophy. They come out on fire the next time. This final memory they take to their crate becomes a long term memory as they stew on it alone. I firmly believe the same applies for dog fights.

When my two bitches got into it, I put them back together seconds after a fight. No fights in a year and they spend nearly 24 hrs a day together... Even eat side by side. I don't let them form a memory of fighting. When I put them back together, they always groom each other and lick their wounds.


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## Kyleigh (Oct 16, 2012)

pets4life said:


> You really put yourself at risk and split up someone else dogs? Grown men have been killed trying to split up 2 shepherds that they didnt know before.
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-turn-him.html You can lose your fingers in a second also. Its not worth the risk unless it is your own dog.


Not worth the risk? Sorry, I don't see it that way. And quite frankly, SOMEONE needs to step in and take control of the situation. I have no qualms about doing it. And I have always had someone "with me" to help break up the fight. 

I've noticed that most people are too "stunned" to do anything, but then once someone moves in, and starts yelling orders, people move in and start taking action. 

I'm one of "those" that will jump into action and start yelling orders. 

I like my dog park - it's huge, there's a ton of trails, lots of trees, etc. Most people that attend the dog park haven't a clue about dog behaviour - this is why dog fights happen. 

Once all dogs and people are calmed down, a couple of us will explain to the "uneducated" what happened and why it happened ... and it's always the same thing ... too many dogs, too much energy in one area. Instead of people leaving angry, they apologize to each other and walk away with shouts of "see you next time."

It doesn't always end "on a happy note" ... but at least people are slowly getting educated as to what to look for.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

hunterisgreat said:


> When training dogs we always put them up on a "win". If a dog is lame in protection we put them up "hot" without winning their trophy. They come out on fire the next time. This final memory they take to their crate becomes a long term memory as they stew on it alone. I firmly believe the same applies for dog fights.
> 
> When my two bitches got into it, I put them back together seconds after a fight. No fights in a year and they spend nearly 24 hrs a day together... Even eat side by side. I don't let them form a memory of fighting. When I put them back together, they always groom each other and lick their wounds.


I guess we could have tried that... and got Sania killed....


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah I adopt that attitude when my dogs are fighting ABOUT something, like one stuck his face in the other's food bowl and there was some flashing of teeth, or stuff like that. I intervene, tell them to knock it off, and then we all go about our normal business. But when you own one dog who has decided it is his personal mission to KILL the other dog then yeah....the end result of letting go of the dogs and letting them right back at it would certainly be a "win" for one of the two dogs and a maimed or dead dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> When my two bitches got into it, I put them back together seconds after a fight. No fights in a year and they spend nearly 24 hrs a day together... Even eat side by side. I don't let them form a memory of fighting. When I put them back together, they always groom each other and lick their wounds.


Wow. Those of us with two bitches who've decided the other must die know better.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Konotashi said:


> I guess we could have tried that... and got Sania killed....


You don't put them together and walk away lol. You put them together, paying attention to their posture and intentions, and make it clear that you will not allow fighting. The purpose is to replace that memory of "I'm going to kill that other dog" with a positive memory of that same dog. Then feel free to separate them and have a beer. The point is to end that experience with a positive view of the other dog


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Yeah I adopt that attitude when my dogs are fighting ABOUT something, like one stuck his face in the other's food bowl and there was some flashing of teeth, or stuff like that. I intervene, tell them to knock it off, and then we all go about our normal business. But when you own one dog who has decided it is his personal mission to KILL the other dog then yeah....the end result of letting go of the dogs and letting them right back at it would certainly be a "win" for one of the two dogs and a maimed or dead dog.


You keep them separate until the state of mind of fighting stops. When you separate them in that state of mind, and then kennel them they will simply sit there and review their most recent memory.. and thats why people end up with the dogs that want to kill each other on first sight. I use the same phenomena to up a dogs performance during bitework. Put them away pissed at the helper and they come out a week later twice as pissed.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

This is real life not helper work and not dogs having some random spats over this or that. My husband is 6'4" and 250 pounds and physically struggled to hold a 70lb dog intent on getting at the other dog. It's not about being "pissed" about this or that but keeping dogs and people *safe*. I don't kennel any of my dogs so it's not like they are doing this, going into kennel, doing that, going into kennel anyways. Sorry but I don't agree dogs are as simple as to only care about the very last thing that happened to them. When two dogs are hackling, growling, posturing, and showing avoidance signals at a distance I'm not just going to put them together to have fun observing their subsequent attacks. When there is one clear instigator IMO it is just cruel to subject other dogs to that. The solution is to keep the instigator from being able to pick fights. Pretty easy and safe. I don't owe it to my dogs or anyone for a bloodbath fight to "end in a positive experience" unless you mean dogs and humans both needing medical care. I owe it to my dogs to keep them safe even if it means safe from each other or an instigator intent on picking a fight.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Ditto Lies. 

Hubby and I broke one up last wednesday. Kayos (10 y/o female) is very vocal and pushy. She pushed Havoc's (5 y/o male) buttons one too many times- just as he was coming through the narrow baby gate from the hall to the family room. Gates are up for puppy control. 

Kayos nipped at him adn he had it out with her. Puppy tried to jump in. I snatched her up and tossed her in the yard. Buy then Havoc was pretty aroused and Kayos was afraid. 

Hubby pulled Kayos by the waist. (She has bad hips did not want to grab legs). I sat on top of Havoc's head. Soon as he broke hold I grabbed his collar and tossed him in a crate. 

It has been a long time since we have ahd a fight but it happens every now and then. 

Hope your kids are recovering and I think you handled yourself well. 

Life is back to normal here but I realized I had let Kayos get a bit too pushy so she has had her jets cooled for her.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> This is real life not helper work and not dogs having some random spats over this or that. My husband is 6'4" and 250 pounds and physically struggled to hold a 70lb dog intent on getting at the other dog. It's not about being "pissed" about this or that but keeping dogs and people *safe*. I don't kennel any of my dogs so it's not like they are doing this, going into kennel, doing that, going into kennel anyways. Sorry but I don't agree dogs are as simple as to only care about the very last thing that happened to them. When two dogs are hackling, growling, posturing, and showing avoidance signals at a distance I'm not just going to put them together to have fun observing their subsequent attacks. When there is one clear instigator IMO it is just cruel to subject other dogs to that. The solution is to keep the instigator from being able to pick fights. Pretty easy and safe. I don't owe it to my dogs or anyone for a bloodbath fight to "end in a positive experience" unless you mean dogs and humans both needing medical care. I owe it to my dogs to keep them safe even if it means safe from each other or an instigator intent on picking a fight.


Obviously when one is posturing you don't shove them together.. The Aggressor gets told it is not allowable. I'm 5'8" and 135 and had no issue handling dogs intent on biting ME. (Ps, if you're a good helper, there shouldn't be any difference with an adult dog. I am *not* friends with the dogs I work... We are infact quite the combatants). Then again, I'm a former Marine, experienced submission fighter, student of Relson Gracie Jiujitsu, and have had no issue subduing >6ft, >250 lb men either... So perhaps size has nothing to do with it, perhaps it is something else.

I've had no bloodbaths, and made two intact bitches previously intent in killing one another get along quite well.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well, I'll just say consider yourself lucky and keep it at that! If you've had no bloodbaths then you don't really understand what I'm talking about. It should not take someone with marine training and martial arts training just to keep two dogs from going at each other's throats all the time.

I think dogs like to decide amongst themselves what the heirachy is going to be (I mean, isn't this your point in your other thread?) so I can intervene all I want but if there's two going to constantly duke it out for that top spot then that's the way it is, it's not really up to us humans is it? I don't tolerate that level of aggression and fighting so I don't allow it to happen, plain and simple, but I am not kidding myself into thinking that I actually make the dogs get along and accept what positions in the hierarchy *I* have chosen for them. If two dogs can't live together without constantly picking fights then they just don't live together at my house. I don't have time to be constantly observing and analyzing dog behavior and all the "what ifs", it's just not safe and not allowed, period.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Gracie and Sania are 100% intent on killing one another. As soon as there's nothing between them- bam. Blood is going to be everywhere.
The fight I split them up from was the first one where no humans shed any blood.
My mom and her boyfriend both have had some gnarly bite wounds from breaking them up.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

Konotashi - I have two male dogs that can't be in the same room together. Ever. One is an older Golden. He is the aggressor, who btw, is nuetered. He is my responsiblity. I will crate and rotate and kennel and yard and seperate walks ....etc. till the day he dies. 

I've committed. Easy or hard. Fun or not. The day I brought each dog home, they stay till the end. 

I think you're doing a good job. And applaud you for not taking the easy way out.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> You keep them separate until the state of mind of fighting stops.


There are dogs in which it _never_ stops. You could sit around until doomsday and it _does not stop._



> If you've had no bloodbaths then you don't really understand what I'm talking about.


This. And some day there will be a bloodbath. In _any_ multiple dog home it can happen instantly.

For instance...one day I had a little brain damaged foster dog and another bigger foster dog we had instantly went for it. I was quick and literally punted the bigger dog off the little dog. It was so strange and I was not expecting it, when I managed to get the little dog safe, I examined it and there was bruising but thanks to my reaction, no broken skin. The bruising is what hurts, anyway, the broken skin just lets germs in. The small dog limped for a few days afterward.

By hunter's advice, I should have let the two back together until what...the bigger dog killed the small dog?
There's times when crap just happens and two dogs are not going to get along; if put together, ever, one _will_ die.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Well, I'll just say consider yourself lucky and keep it at that! If you've had no bloodbaths then you don't really understand what I'm talking about. It should not take someone with marine training and martial arts training just to keep two dogs from going at each other's throats all the time.
> 
> I think dogs like to decide amongst themselves what the heirachy is going to be (I mean, isn't this your point in your other thread?) so I can intervene all I want but if there's two going to constantly duke it out for that top spot then that's the way it is, it's not really up to us humans is it? I don't tolerate that level of aggression and fighting so I don't allow it to happen, plain and simple, but I am not kidding myself into thinking that I actually make the dogs get along and accept what positions in the hierarchy *I* have chosen for them. If two dogs can't live together without constantly picking fights then they just don't live together at my house. I don't have time to be constantly observing and analyzing dog behavior and all the "what ifs", it's just not safe and not allowed, period.


First, capital M.. it is Marine, not marine... "marine" is offensive.

My comment was just a response to "my 6+ 250+ husband". Us small guys take that a a cheap shot. 

I don't have to use any of that to deal with a dog. Well, I've used jiujitsu on a few occasions. Its actually very helpful in catching a dog on a long bite... knowing how to redirect kinetic energy and all... really the most important part of catching a dog. 

I refuse to accept two dogs can't live together, and have found all of it is resolvable thus far. And we *have* had real fights, bloody messy, staple-requiring, near-death fights. But I learned from it, largely from learning to recognize the nuances of dog behavior, and I simply avoid it before it starts. And now we have a happy peaceful pack.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> There are dogs in which it _never_ stops. You could sit around until doomsday and it _does not stop._


I put forth that you have simply not yet found the solution. Color me an optimist


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

No need to get all defensive.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> There are dogs in which it _never_ stops. You could sit around until doomsday and it _does not stop._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you were not on the opposite side of the country, I'd show you how to stop it and prove to you the *CAN* get along.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> No need to get all defensive.


I'm not. I was just pointing out:

a) something I'm sure you didn't realize
b) something you perhaps didn't realize
c) clarifying
d) my opinion


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Thanks for the offer...but living with multiple dogs for the past...well, my whole life, really, has taught me otherwise.



> largely from learning to recognize the nuances of dog behavior, and *I simply avoid it before it starts.*


Your video in another thread would seem to prove otherwise.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> I'm not. I was just pointing out:
> 
> a) something I'm sure you didn't realize
> b) something you perhaps didn't realize
> ...


I'm talking about all the Marine, martial arts, height/weight taking offense stuff. No offense but it doesn't matter to me or impress me one way or the other. I don't want to have to physically overpower my dogs to maintain order and respect in this house. If one dog is consistently instigating fights then he no longer has the freedom to start such fights, end of story. I guess the difference is you are genuinely interested in all the nuances of dog behavior and I am not. I like to foster dogs and be involved in rescue and I cannot do that to the capacity I would like when I have dogs going at each others' throats and requiring supervision and intervention, even if it is only temporary (we'll assume for a moment you are right and can somehow convince two large intact males that have a history of fighting for blood that they can be friends again). It's just not a priority for me, but having a cohesive, calm household where I can safely move foster dogs in and out without worrying about fights is my priority and the fastest most effective way to achieve this is make sure fights can't happen. I'm sorry but I'm inclined to take the advice of several people who know me personally and know the dogs involved (and have known and trained with these dogs for years and/or *bred* the dogs in question) and have decades of experience owning and training this breed over one person on the Internet who has never seen either dog.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Thanks for the offer...but living with multiple dogs for the past...well, my whole life, really, has taught me otherwise.
> 
> 
> Your video in another thread would seem to prove otherwise.


I avoid fights.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

hunterisgreat said:


> I avoid fights.





hunterisgreat said:


> And we *have* had real fights, bloody messy, staple-requiring, near-death fights.


By your own admission, fights aren't always avoidable.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> By your own admission, fights aren't always avoidable.


Any time there is more then one dog in a house there is a chance of a fight breaking out. We got in the middle of quite a few when we were younger. Knock on wood, I haven't experienced it recently, but I'm ready to move when and if needed.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> Any time there is more then one dog in a house there is a chance of a fight breaking out. We got in the middle of quite a few when we were younger. Knock on wood, I haven't experienced it recently, but I'm ready to move when and if needed.


Yer kinda preaching to the choir here


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

hunterisgreat, one of the Op's dogs is a pit bull.... if she was to follow your advise the pit bull would kill the older dog and not stop until the older dog was dead. you cant take a dog with over 200 years of genetic engineering to be dog aggressive for fighting in a pit and "let them work it out or not remember the fight"... that just aint gonnna happen with a bully breed... bully breeds are known for dog aggression, you cant just toss them together after a fight and hope they dont remember it...... since you dont own the breed you have no clue what damage a bully breed can do to another dog....


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

mebully21 said:


> hunterisgreat, one of the Op's dogs is a pit bull.... if she was to follow your advise the pit bull would kill the older dog and not stop until the older dog was dead. you cant take a dog with over 200 years of genetic engineering to be dog aggressive for fighting in a pit and "let them work it out or not remember the fight"... that just aint gonnna happen with a bully breed... bully breeds are known for dog aggression, you cant just toss them together after a fight and hope they dont remember it...... since you dont own the breed you have no clue what damage a bully breed can do to another dog....


Who said I don't know the breed? just a few posts a back I said "you don't just throw them together". Quite familiar with pbts.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> Yer kinda preaching to the choir here


So I think an amen or hallelujah is needed here


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

llombardo said:


> So I think an amen or hallelujah is needed here


'tis the season


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Hey thanks for that vid! Most versions I find lack the strings and horns, not the same without them.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> Hey thanks for that vid! Most versions I find lack the strings and horns, not the same without them.


It's an excellent version, if a tad up-tempo


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe if it was two labs or just two non-bully breeds in general around the same age, perhaps your advice would be viable.
But this is a 5+ year old pit and a 14+ year old lab.
Trying to force them to live peacefully would get Sania killed.

Have you ever split up a fight with a pit? When they bite, they chomp down as HARD as they can and don't let go while they thrash around.
All human wounds from splitting them up were from Sania. Letting go, bite, let go, bite, let go, bite- that's how MOST other dogs fight.


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## mebully21 (Nov 18, 2011)

oops sorry Hunter.. i didnt know you knew the breed.. at least you knowing the breed knows that you cant put them together once they fight, and you cant take any chances and a room/rotate is in order or a rehome


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

msvette2u said:


> It's an excellent version, if a tad up-tempo


Agree!


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## x0emiroxy0x (Nov 29, 2010)

Konotashi said:


> Maybe if it was two labs or just two non-bully breeds in general around the same age, perhaps your advice would be viable.
> But this is a 5+ year old pit and a 14+ year old lab.
> Trying to force them to live peacefully would get Sania killed.
> 
> ...


Careful, Konotashi, wouldn't repeat that around the pitbull enthusiasts....they don't think there is any such thing as "locking the jaw", or anything associated with it.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Careful, Konotashi, wouldn't repeat that around the pitbull enthusiasts....they don't think there is any such thing as "locking the jaw", or anything associated with it.



I really despise your sarcastic comments..They are completely useless. I find it funny enough that you only comment on threads that are related to pits so that you can jump in and continue to bash. 

Yes, bully type dogs are very strong. No, they don't have some sort of locking mechanism on their jaws and it's completely asinine to say that they do. There are ways to break up fight between two bully type dogs. 

If you actually learned something from any "pitbull enthusiasts" you would know that most of them carry a break stick on them. I guess you could call it a "key" to "unlock" their jaws.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When Arwen and Jasmine started WWIII, that was it, there were stitches and drains in both bitches, swelling and bleeding and they would have killed each other if I wasn't able to separate them. Two days later, I woke up and let Arwen out, and went back to bed. In about ten minutes, still groggy, I figured I could hold Jazzy, and let Arwen in and Jazzy out. 

_That _is how I got the wound on my leg that took 18 months to heal. 

I expect that seven years later Arwen and Jazzy would have still gone through windows or doors to get to each other. I wouldn't take Arwen for a walk down my brother's street for the rest of their lives, because they would have gone right after each other.


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## Konotashi (Jan 11, 2010)

I don't believe that their jaws 'lock.' I know they have a lot of jaw power and they use that to hang on.
There's a reason they're rumored to have 'locking jaws.'
It's because when they bite, they DO NOT let go (willingly).
I thought break sticks were illegal because they're considered as dog fighting paraphanalia? (Sorry, I have no idea how to spell that).


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