# Testing Dominance



## AHarkins (Oct 5, 2016)

This is about dominance not so much actual aggression, but Iam new to the forum and wasn’t sure quite where this post would fit. I have a6.5 month old male who is testing his dominance lately. We are going to atrainer, who tells me that his behavior is just that. He is very mouthy anytimehe wants anything and more recently when I try to tell him what to do, such assit or down in our OB work. The problem is that it’s getting worse…I thought itwas just his age at first, which I still think it partially is. However, myboyfriend works a lot (and will continue to do so for another two weeks) so I’mdealing with him (the dog) by myself almost 100% of the time and I’m about atmy wits end. He gets a 15 minute walk in the morning, I come home to let himout for 30 minutes over lunch during the day, a 30-40 minute walk right after Iget home from work, and then at least an hour at the park in the evenings. Itry to entertain his mind and play with him in between these outings. He is notallowed on our bed, he shows no aggression with his food (can put my hands init or take it away at any time without fuss), he is very friendly towards otherpeople. I’m just wondering if there are any things anybody has found useful inreally driving home the point that they are the alpha over their dog, ifanybody has had similar issues and how they fixed them…and if there is a lightat the end of the tunnel (if it is heavily related to his age). THANKS!


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

What are the qualifications of the trainer...or experience? What does the trainer tell you to do about this?


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

Any trainer spouting a dominance theory (which has been thoroughly debunked) I would question. Your puppy is getting to a bratly stage of development (think teenager). We have some great trainers on the forum, mayhaps they will be able to give you some tips.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

I don't know if I think the dominance thing is totally out. The way in which one displays that they are dominant or in charge is all that would question.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

OP. I would up my obedience training and add in a lot of physical exercise.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Though I would agree it's probable that you aren't dealing with dominance, if the trainer is skilled enough they could certainly recognize it. As a matter of fact, I got a puppy from a breeder on this forum who sent the puppy to me because they could see the dominance in the pup and they knew he would be handful for most folks. Sure enough they were right, this guy was DOMINANT by 4 months old and became a great LE dog but he needed a firm hand until he entered the academy. Now I raise pups for LE work, and though I have placed many, this was a dominant dog.....having said that, most of the time I am called for problem pups that people think are dominant, it really nothing more than the inexperience of the owner/handler.


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

What people see as dominance in OB can be a number of other things. The most likely candidates.

1. The dog is frustrated. Signals and cues are not clear or reward frequency is not appropriate for where the dog is in training and as a result the dog becomes frustrated and the frustration turns into the mouthing bratty type of behavior.

2. The behaviors described are packaged with the OB behaviors because of bad criteria set by the handler and the dog has inadvertently been trained to display those behaviors when training.

3. The dog is bored and its fun

Either way sounds like the dog is mirroring the handler at this point. What is the handler feeling? Frustration. Probably what the dog is feeling too.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There is a dog that does exactly what you describe in the ob class we're in right now.The owner is giving really wimpy corrections and of course the dog ignores her.When the trainer takes the leash one collar pop and he falls into line.

What I see as I watch from across the room is the difference in confidence between the trainer and owner.The trainer is calm,relaxed,and expects the dog to straighten up NOW.The owner is more hesitant and almost pleading in her mannerisms.This particular dog is also very bouncy and playful and I suspect he could do with some strenuous activity before class.As I sit here in judgment I think she needs to emulate a drill Sgt. First PT,next marching.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

the dog has to see her as She Who Must Be Obeyed. So while the pup grows and matures, the handler has to be patient, calm, firm and clear about what she wants. Their has to be rewards for good behavior and quick consequences for anything that can not be allowed. Having the trainer as another set of eyes is great. The trainer will see things in how we communicate that we cannot see ourselves. 

So if you don't want to call it Dominance. I'd still call it this: the dog is trying to see how often it can get it's own way. That is perfectly normal for any growing creature, ourselves included.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

dogma13 said:


> There is a dog that does exactly what you describe in the ob class we're in right now.The owner is giving really wimpy corrections and of course the dog ignores her.When the trainer takes the leash one collar pop and he falls into line.
> 
> What I see as I watch from across the room is the difference in confidence between the trainer and owner.The trainer is calm,relaxed,and expects the dog to straighten up NOW.The owner is more hesitant and almost pleading in her mannerisms.This particular dog is also very bouncy and playful and I suspect he could do with some strenuous activity before class.As I sit here in judgment I think she needs to emulate a drill Sgt. First PT,next marching.



LOL, you brought a smile to me. When we were stationed at a different post I taught obedience class. In one I had the General of the Post because he had a lab that had gotten out of control. One night I took the General outside for a private talk. I told him he needed to stop asking the dog to do something, but to tell him and expect him to do it. He gave excuses. Exasperated I finally said "You're in a tank going down a trail and two old ladies are on it. Are you going to ask you men to stop the tank or tell them to?" He answers with a laugh I'm going to TELL them to run the old ladies over who shouldn't be on a tank trail. I said, fine, then start telling your lab the same way! 


He asked didn't my husband worked directly under him and I said yes. He laughed and told me he was going to tell my husband his wife (me) told him off and appropriately. He started giving the dog commands and the dog started listening.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Deb said:


> LOL, you brought a smile to me. When we were stationed at a different post I taught obedience class. In one I had the General of the Post because he had a lab that had gotten out of control. One night I took the General outside for a private talk. I told him he needed to stop asking the dog to do something, but to tell him and expect him to do it. He gave excuses. Exasperated I finally said "You're in a tank going down a trail and two old ladies are on it. Are you going to ask you men to stop the tank or tell them to?" He answers with a laugh I'm going to TELL them to run the old ladies over who shouldn't be on a tank trail. I said, fine, then start telling your lab the same way!
> 
> 
> He asked didn't my husband worked directly under him and I said yes. He laughed and told me he was going to tell my husband his wife (me) told him off and appropriately. He started giving the dog commands and the dog started listening.


That's a great story!Isn't it interesting to watch the relationship between people and their dogs?I wish I had someone to follow me around with a video camera so I could critique myself later,lol!I know my dog is pretty awesome and I'm the one that makes all of the mistakes


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

dogma13 said:


> That's a great story!Isn't it interesting to watch the relationship between people and their dogs?I wish I had someone to follow me around with a video camera so I could critique myself later,lol!I know my dog is pretty awesome and I'm the one that makes all of the mistakes


I love to watch the relationships. The General later told me when we were at a Dining In that he gave orders all day and just wanted to be able to go home and relax. But that once the dog learned he had to listen he didn't have to order him, just tell him. And that he never asked him since out 'talk'. 


Some people are naturals are training, some have to figure it out first. When I'd first start a class I'd watch the relationships. We always ended class with doggy baseball. Then I'd watch the relationship again. Most often I could see the relationship they had at home because they'd relax more.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> There is a dog that does exactly what you describe in the ob class we're in right now.The owner is giving really wimpy corrections and of course the dog ignores her.When the trainer takes the leash one collar pop and he falls into line.
> 
> What I see as I watch from across the room is the difference in confidence between the trainer and owner.The trainer is calm,relaxed,and expects the dog to straighten up NOW.The owner is more hesitant and almost pleading in her mannerisms.This particular dog is also very bouncy and playful and I suspect he could do with some strenuous activity before class.As I sit here in judgment I think she needs to emulate a drill Sgt. First PT,next marching.


I've seen this too. There was a woman in my wife's class whose dog started out doing this and it escalated with dog actually biting her.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If the park you are going to is a dog park, I would stop doing that. Take him to an ordinary park, and you play with him. 

The reason is that true dominance in dogs is usually between dogs, not people. So if he is actually being dominant with you, he is probably more likely to be dominant with other dogs -- THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE IS CONSTANTLY FIGHTING OR PICKING FIGHTS. In fact, a truly dominant dog rarely needs to show dominance that humans pick out. Dogs do. It's all body language and it isn't threatening. The beta dogs are the ones fighting, a beta dog pack leader may be a bully. A natural leader leads by the way he holds himself, and other dogs simply accept him as the leader. Fights are rare -- think about it. A wolf needs to be able to run down game, couldn't do that if they were constantly recovering from serious war wounds -- that type of leader does not last, not that dogs think this out, it is instinctive.

Back to your dog. He needs to see you as the source of all that is wonderful. Playing at the dog park doesn't promote this. It is counter-productive. Those other dogs play like dogs and are much more fun than a human can be. So it ramps him up, and as he is still a puppy, he is probably not sure where in the pack he ought to be, so being higher in the pack promotes pushy behavior.

Glad you have a trainer. I haven't seen the dog, but I get an itch when I hear of dogs being labeled dominant with regards to people, especially as young as this on is. 

Unfortunately a lot of doggy-behavior is misdiagnosed and the go-to problem is dominance. This is probably because trainers that tell people that they are not communicating properly with their dog, not being clear, not being consistent, do not have reasonable expectations, are training their dogs to ignore them by not following through and repeating themselves, training their dogs to require a louder, stronger tone, etc. well, often people won't go to them. So they call it dominance, and teach you how to be more clear, consistent, give good positive and negative signals, follow through, have reasonable expectations, not repeat yourself and so forth. 

Your dog is a teenager and you might have to back up and work through this stage. It doesn't last forever. 

Your dog is very intelligent and he may be bored, being over trained on the same old stuff. Sometimes it is helpful to break it up. Teach agility instead of obedience for 4-6 weeks. Make it more fun. 

One of the biggest misdiagnosis out there is the stubborn dog. Lots of times the dog is not stubborn at all. The dog is shutting down. It looks like stubbornness because the dog is not doing anything. SIT! the dog stands there. What do you do, you get angry. The dog is becoming more confused and frightened of making a mistake, so he is doing nothing. There are times when we have to back off. We need to look at our training from the outside, and we need to try things differently. If the dog knows SIT, and you say SIT, and he does not sit, what do you do? Do you say SIT again with a stronger tone? Or do you say, NOW. Do you give a leash correction and repeat the command? Or do you pull up on the lead a little and put your hand down the back and up under the back legs until your dog is in that sitting position. What do you do then? Do you praise the sit, even though it was helped? Do you go on without praise because he did not do it the first time? 

How are you using treats? Have you graduated from treats and are now working solely with praise? Are you using a clicker? Are you using treats every time he complies? Are you using treats when he does it very well? Do you need to revisit the whole treat idea?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

My big problem with the dominance word is that it has this connotation of the dog trying to get one over on you... tryi g to deliberately take over because they think they are better than you or something. I don't know but to me it seems to paint the dog in an unrealistically negative way.

Not that dogs are cherubic saints...but they just do what they can do, if there has never been an effective boundary then they will do whatever they are able to do just because they can, not because they think they are superior to the person or whatever.

If that makes any sense


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

selzer said:


> The reason is that true dominance in dogs is usually between dogs, not people. So if he is actually being dominant with you, he is probably more likely to be dominant with other dogs -- THIS DOES NOT MEAN HE IS CONSTANTLY FIGHTING OR PICKING FIGHTS. In fact, a truly dominant dog rarely needs to show dominance that humans pick out. Dogs do. It's all body language and it isn't threatening. The beta dogs are the ones fighting, a beta dog pack leader may be a bully. A natural leader leads by the way he holds himself, and other dogs simply accept him as the leader. Fights are rare -- think about it. A wolf needs to be able to run down game, couldn't do that if they were constantly recovering from serious war wounds -- that type of leader does not last, not that dogs think this out, it is instinctive.


This is so true. When we were stationed here the second time I had a rough collie. She was on the small end of the standard. I was teaching obedience and wanted to work her in a class. There was a Rottweiler Club and they said I could join their classes if I thought my collie would work around their dogs. We went. After the classes the dogs were allowed to play in the field. After the third time we weren't really welcomed anymore. Deja was a naturally dominant bitch. When playtime came half the dogs would go belly up to her, especially if they began playing too rough and she turned and gave them a look. The men (there were only men) got angry that their dogs would not challenge her and she was the leader. She looked sissy to them. One gentleman pulled me to the side and explained the other guys were too macho to handle my collie being so dominant over their Rotties without even a fight for it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Deb said:


> This is so true. When we were stationed here the second time I had a rough collie. She was on the small end of the standard. I was teaching obedience and wanted to work her in a class. There was a Rottweiler Club and they said I could join their classes if I thought my collie would work around their dogs. We went. After the classes the dogs were allowed to play in the field. After the third time we weren't really welcomed anymore. Deja was a naturally dominant bitch. When playtime came half the dogs would go belly up to her, especially if they began playing too rough and she turned and gave them a look. The men (there were only men) got angry that their dogs would not challenge her and she was the leader. She looked sissy to them. One gentleman pulled me to the side and explained the other guys were too macho to handle my collie being so dominant over their Rotties without even a fight for it.


That sounds like it would make a great Loony tunes cartoon. All these big bad rotties with their short stocky bad-looking owners, seeing their dogs go belly-up fools of themselves because of the gorgeous collie girl. :grin2:

Not that I don't believe you, I do, but it is almost midnight and stuff just paints pictures in my brain.


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## Ldes77 (Aug 24, 2016)

Deb said:


> LOL, you brought a smile to me. When we were stationed at a different post I taught obedience class. In one I had the General of the Post because he had a lab that had gotten out of control. One night I took the General outside for a private talk. I told him he needed to stop asking the dog to do something, but to tell him and expect him to do it. He gave excuses. Exasperated I finally said "You're in a tank going down a trail and two old ladies are on it. Are you going to ask you men to stop the tank or tell them to?" He answers with a laugh I'm going to TELL them to run the old ladies over who shouldn't be on a tank trail. I said, fine, then start telling your lab the same way!
> 
> 
> He asked didn't my husband worked directly under him and I said yes. He laughed and told me he was going to tell my husband his wife (me) told him off and appropriately. He started giving the dog commands and the dog started listening.


As a fellow military spouse, this made me laugh so hard. What a great story!

OP, I agree with the other posters that being calm, firm and clear with your dog is very important. And so is excercise. It sounds like you are trying to both mentally and physically stimulate your dog, but it maybe it's not enough right now. When you take your dog to the park, what are you doing with him?


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## Dotbat215 (Aug 19, 2015)

"Fights are rare -- think about it. A wolf needs to be able to run down game, couldn't do that if they were constantly recovering from serious war wounds"

This!! 

I think a lot of what comes out of dominance theory is humans projecting their feelings onto dogs. 

There are people who seem to take everything as a challenge to their "alpha status".... Dog steps in your foot? Dominance. Dog leans on you? Dominance. Dog looks at you funny? Dominance. To me it makes the human look insecure and he needs to put something in its place to feel better. 

Dogs pick up on insecurity. And constantly assuming your dog is working against you to usurp the throne only creates more conflict.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

selzer said:


> That sounds like it would make a great Loony tunes cartoon. All these big bad rotties with their short stocky bad-looking owners, seeing their dogs go belly-up fools of themselves because of the gorgeous collie girl. :grin2:
> 
> Not that I don't believe you, I do, but it is almost midnight and stuff just paints pictures in my brain.



ROFL! Now I can see the cartoon, too! Actually, when the guy spoke to me I was happy to not go back. They were very competitive and I saw too many take their dogs off the field into the edge of the woods, pick up a stick and beat their dogs because they didn't do as the guy wanted them to do or didn't do it fast enough. I think it was worse for the dogs when we were there because the prissy little collie did so much better than their big strong dogs, so tiny girl with tiny collie left the big guys with the big dogs and hopefully there was less beating of dogs. This was around 1990, so I hope the 'just beat them' mentality is fully gone.


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## AHarkins (Oct 5, 2016)

I found this trainer through a friend who has threeshepherds and she recommended him. I really like the trainer, he seems very knowledgeableabout canine behavior. We went to him a couple times when Jeter was a smallpuppy to learn to reinforce down sit and come (he already knew sit and down).All of this training was done with visible treats. Now we still do treats butonly after the release word “okay”…and we do corrections with a collar. I woulddo the OB in our yard but it’s very small so we go to a park (not a dog park).He doesn’t seem to be the “alpha” in situations with other dogs, he always willshy away when another dog snaps or growls. I’m not sure if this will change ashe grows but from what I’ve seen so far he doesn’t seem to be. I myself havebeen frustrated lately so I’m sure he is picking up on that, but I try toalways be upbeat and positive when going into OB. I also tried playingyesterday before doing OB but that didn’t seem to help. I don’t think it’s thathe doesn’t understand what I want I just think he’s being a “brat” and doesn’twant to do what I’m telling him. He has known down for months. It seems to bewhen he is put in a down that we run into problems. He either won’t go into itor won’t stay as I walk around him. Sometimes he does without a fuss and thenother times he throws a fit. Yesterday I managed to calm him after several fitsand made sure we ended on a good note after he did what was asked. I also makesure to include a happy voice, praise, and pets along with his treat to try andmake it fun and let him know I’m happy.


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## Kane's World (Mar 24, 2015)

I don't know if this will help at all, but I know that our story kind of mirrors yours....puppy was a superstar, learned every command immediately, we played together, learned together and had a VERY strong bond. Then he got to be around 6 months old and got into a bratty phase. That worried me, because he was so big and strong that I thought I needed to have control every moment or he could potentially hurt someone, or maybe he'd think he was the boss & we'd have serious problems down the road.


MY attitude changed more than his...there wasn't much playtime anymore as we focused on obedience over everything else. He was almost constantly being corrected (not physically). He really didn't know how to respond to my new attitude and started tuning me out and became even more erratic and disobedient. He didn't seem like the same dog; he didn't have that same sparkle in his eyes. 


This went on for 2 months... I was at my wits end and VERY close to giving up when I just let go a little bit and started to realize that he was still a puppy and we needed to play more, developing our bond, and making my expectations a little more realistic with where we were in training (rather than where we could or should be). Just because he was big didn't mean he wasn't still a baby. When we reconnected, the change was almost immediate & he wanted to obey me more.


There is a light at the end of the tunnel. Kane is almost 2 now and most of the time he acts like a 'normal' dog rather than some wild creature, LOL. He looks at me like I'm the center of his universe and it's all worth it 


I agree with listening to trainers, and obviously the dog needs to listen to you. But, in my case I needed to step WAAAAY back and play with him like I did for the first 6 months of his life & make sure our bond was the first priority.


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## Deb (Nov 20, 2010)

If he won't let you walk around him, try walking away a few feet in front of him. If you get frustrated, switch to something else, even a fast walk for a short bit and then go back to it. He's being a puppy. After he does well for a few minutes then play a little and then go back to OB. If you know you're too frustrated with other things on a day, take the day off of OB and just enjoy a long walk with him.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Kane's World said:


> I don't know if this will help at all, but I know that our story kind of mirrors yours....puppy was a superstar, learned every command immediately, we played together, learned together and had a VERY strong bond. Then he got to be around 6 months old and got into a bratty phase. That worried me, because he was so big and strong that I thought I needed to have control every moment or he could potentially hurt someone, or maybe he'd think he was the boss & we'd have serious problems down the road.
> 
> 
> MY attitude changed more than his...there wasn't much playtime anymore as we focused on obedience over everything else. He was almost constantly being corrected (not physically). He really didn't know how to respond to my new attitude and started tuning me out and became even more erratic and disobedient. He didn't seem like the same dog; he didn't have that same sparkle in his eyes.
> ...


AWESOME POST!!!

Sometimes you have to step back and ask yourself, "is this fun?" Is it fun for you? Is it fun for the dog? No it is not all easy, and it is not all fun. But you are asking an animal to live in your world. Let's give him some incentive to do that. Let's be happy, and do fun stuff with our dogs. Training is important, but you can make a good 80% of training or more into fun stuff for you and the dog. 

We don't get a dog because it is item 673 on the list of a complete life. We get dogs because we love dogs. What do we love? Their looks? Well put up a picture of a dog. Their intelligence? Maybe. Their sense of fun and pure enjoyment of life -- that is what draws me to dogs. A dog is happy to see you, no matter how your day went, they are excited that you are home, c'mon let's go do something fun, or let me lay down next to you. All good. 

If we ask ourselves if we are having fun, and we cannot honestly say, "yes." Then we need to figure out what we need to do to change that.


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## MarkJoel60 (Aug 29, 2012)

I would say that you need to take a good look at everything. You posted about what happens when he is on the down, or when he goes walking, but what else is going on?

What tools do you have at your disposal? Is he crate trained? Will he wear a muzzle? Do you have an e-collar? A Prong collar? You said you give treats, is your trainer clicker training him? 

Also, how does he act at other times? A 7 month GSD is still very much a puppy, but still puppies act differently. If this is your first GSD, maybe you should head out to a dog club (Schutzhund/IPO would be ideal) -- without your dog -- just to see what other GSDs are acting like and you can get some sort of an idea if yours is in the realm of Normal. If your trainer sees him one hour a week and tells you he is normal, that doesn't mean the pup is acting normal. 

I'd go back to the pedigree of your trainer. Owning 3 GSDs means almost nothing. I have owned 3 GSDs. I'm not a trainer. Sad truth is there is absolutely no regulation of dog trainers. All you need is a cell phone and someone to recommend you. Ask your trainer if he has worked through this issue with anyone else. If he says yes, ask him if it would be OK to call them because you would like to talk to them about their experience. He may need to clear that with the other owner, but most trainers who talk about success stories are very well thought of by their customer and they are probably more than happy to speak with someone going through the same thing.

Even if the trainer gives you the person and you can call them, you may find out something the owner did to solve the problem that the trainer wasn't aware of. The trainer is there only an hour a week. Stuff goes on he doesn't see.

Hopefully your trainer is as good as you hope. But if he can't name one person he has helped through this kind of a thing, and if you can't find anyone who can testify to the trainer's ability, I personally would look for someone else. It's not easy. I have met with a dozen or so trainers near where I live. I have found exactly one who really knew what he was talking about. Don't assume that the trainer knows what they are talking about -- prove it. 

Teething and chewing problems go away as dogs grow older. House training issues usually do as well. Aggression issues will get worse, not better. I don't mean to scare you, but my GSD did not attack me for the first time until he was 2 1/2 years old. At age one, he still hid behind me at times. I was worried about him because even though I wasn't training him for bite work or anything, I didn't want a 100 pound dog that hid behind me when someone new came through the door... Well, believe me that changed. Something happened at age 2 1/2, and he decided King Kong had nothing on him. 

I would say you need to treat this very seriously. A large percentage of GSDs grow up, mature, and are wonderful. But there is a percentage, and it is higher than anyone on this forum would care to admit, that have aggression issues. You do not want to live in a house of fear. You need to resolve this issue now while it is still "mouth" issues and not "teeth" issues.

IMHO.


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