# striding question



## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

I train in Schutzhund, but I thought I'd go to agility folks to help me with an issue. My girl is having issues hitting the meter jump with her back legs. I'd like to teach her to collect and jump a bit rounder over the jump. I'm planning on setting up a combination/bounce jump to improve her form. I'm not sure about distances between the jumps. Any ideas would be appreciated. This is how she is jumping now.

Schutzhund dumbbell retrieve training - YouTube


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm 5'5 and I put 7 strides between the obstacles. What was important to me was that she was committed to the jump one stride before the jump. If you slow her down, she knocks the bars. So, maybe you also need to know when she is committed to her jump and determine your placement based on her stride length.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

I would say she thinks this is what you want, she's a smart dog and if she THINKS the point is to *just* get up and over (like she hits all up and down the aframe getting over it, right?  ) the jump, then it's easier to do what she's doing. 

Do you have regular and lightweight PVC jumps that the top bar displaces and will fall? Cause those are much easier to start low and MARK (click?/reward) when the dog goes over and the bar stays up. While NOT marking (clicking/rewarding) if the bar is ticked or falls.

You can start low and CLOSE so you can QUICKLY mark/reward so your dog will understand with the lower jump heights. 

You can do this outside  but this shows one jump training to really teach the dog to push off their rear.





 
This shows the same dog (Glory) at 6 months so you can see how jumping is a skill and with this method you are right there and close to SHOW you want the dog to not click/touch/make the bar fall





 
I think your dog has the striding down fine, she just THINKS she's doing it right because you are asking a series of complex behaviors. Staying while you throw the dumbell, leaving straight ahead and over, getting the dumbell, coming back straight and over, then getting back into heel position. That's a TON of stuff the dog has to do and some of it is right. Only a teeny part (the hitting the top of the jump?) is 'wrong' so the pull that behavior out separately and fix it would be my choice. 

So if you can break down 'jumping' so your dog understands that 'do not touch the top that's not rewarded' from all the rest will help. Fix it away from all the rest of the dumbell, return to heel, staying ...... Only AFTER you get a 100% reliable and understanding for 'kick up those heels and don't touch the top' would I start thinking about adding the panel jump at a LOW height with a still displaceable bar. 

Do you have Obedience panel jumps available? They are displaceable but 'solid' so you can transition to them before the Sch jump. A jump like the one in the start of this video (the white one).


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Susan Salo teaches some great gridwork exercises so you can see the distances she uses, the first jump is always low and just to adjust their 'set point' for take off. The second jump helps to be a double because the dog has to extend a bit and THINK when they jump (this would help your dog). ALL EARLY TRAINING is low while the dogs figure it out.


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks for the tips. I think I'll build a PVC jump and work on it. I've done target training with her, so I'm able to send her back and forth over the jump from target to target. I have a trial coming up soon, so I'm thinking I'm just going to have to eat a point for it. But I do want to fix it for the future. I'm just going to try a few grids for now, but I do like the light weight jump.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

With the jump low, you right there and the CLICKER to mark when the bar is NOT touched and dog goes over cleanly, it's much easier to SHOW the dog with good timing exactly what you want. Adding distance and a higher jump 'hurt' our timing cause it's not as precise.

When I'm right there, I can immediately hear if my dog ticks the bar with her toenails and NOT click. Rather than when she's clean I click immediately when those same back feet clear the bar cleanly. I'm not really clicking her landing. I'm clicking the NOT ticking/knocking the bar. It's precise and specific for the exact behavior I want. And the closer I am, with the better timing, the faster my dog learns and we can move on to raise the jump (my dogs can do 24 - 26" with me sitting on the ground like in the first video). So they get stronger and I'm able to 'show' what I want.

Then I can add the distance with my timing in place and the dog 'knowing' her job.

I'm thinking you clever Sch people can then figure out a way to put a displaceable bar on the top of your training jump, then figuring out a way to hide it (paint it brown?) so it can still be knocked off (and your dog now KNOWS that is an oops and no reward) .


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## wildo (Jul 27, 2006)

I think you're going in the right direction with setting up some Salo jump grids. You can watch Susan Salo's foundation jumping DVD through Clean Run as a video on demand: Clean Run: Foundation Jumping: Video on Demand

I don't know a ton about her jump grids, but I do know that she uses them to teach both collection and extension. I'd think you would want to setup probably two bar jumps such that there is more than one stride between them. Then set the second jump so that there is only one stride (perhaps even less than a stride length) to the panel jump. Then maybe set a fourth jump after the panel jump at a double stride length to encourage the fact that there was something different about the panel. Only run this in one direction at first to ensure you are driving home the point that the panel jump requires collection. Once the dog is getting it, then you could run the grid both ways.

That said, I've never seen the jump grid DVDs- that above is just my own idea of how I think it works.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

When we train, if the dog touches (and this is generally done without a dumbbell if it's being isolated for touching) they get a "no", and do it over. Once it is done without touching, they get a party of "yes!" good dog, yayyy! Same kind of thing as using a clicker, we just opt out of using them and use vocal markers instead.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Shaina said:


> When we train, if the dog touches (and this is generally done without a dumbbell if it's being isolated for touching) they get a "no", and do it over. Once it is done without touching, they get a party of "yes!" good dog, yayyy! Same kind of thing as using a clicker, we just opt out of using them and use vocal markers instead.


The difference with the 'clicker' and the way that method trains is it has the dog think to figure out how to get the marker/reward WITHOUT the negatives of the 'no'. Start low, start easy, start with a hungry dog and good treats.....I use the treats to start cause THE TOY is to high drive crazy to get the 'thinking' going...

Once the dog 'get's it' no reward unless a clean jump, then you can add the toy and start making it harder with distance PLUS the other stuff for your complete routine. But add the other stuff slowly and not until you are 100% that your dog KNOWS that doing that big heavy panel jump to get the dumbbell isn't SUPPOSED to include using the top to launch off.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't do agility but Schutzhund - I see dogs that have had the same approach in training that you do cindy - and they clear without touching less than 50% of the time. I think MRL hit the nail on the head saying that there is too much stuff going on in a retrieve excercise for the dog understand what part of it they did wrong. 

I find it fascinating how the Agility people will break down jumping to the smallest components and work on them separately so the dog is really clear on the excercise - while us Schutzhund people just point the dog towards the jump and away they go, either clearing it, or not, and that is about the amount of training they get for jumping. 

Taking some clues and tidbits here and there from when I used to take riding lessons (hunter/jumper), and the vast wisdom and experience of all things training/puppy from MRL, I too did jump shutes for Gryffon to slow him down, teach him rhythm and striding, and get his brain to overcome his drive - it helped hugely (no more running straight INTO the jump or taking off too early or too late because the drives overcame common sense). He is a very natural jumper, but to fix the occasional back-legs touching issue, I did put up knockable bars. Didn't do it with the intention of teaching him to not touch, did it because that was some of the set-ups I had at home, and bingo! No more touching! 

The jumping clear over a knockable bar was worked on at home, one way jump for a ball or toy (simplified greatly from the formal retrieve). I would stand by the jump to give instant feedback as he went over: YES!!! for a clear, but didn't say anything for a knocked bar. We just did it again with me not reacting at all. 

He will now jump four feet one inches clear. 

These are silly little amateur videos done when I first discovered that my point-and-shoot had video capability, mostly for me to try out the new video feature:

Jump shute sequence:

Gryffon Jump Shute Bounce - YouTube

3 feet five inches. I have moved to putting a light bar across the top of the standards and that makes it a four foot one inch jump, wich he also clears.

Slow mo jump - YouTube


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Love this one! GEEZ does he look like Miss GloryB!!!!





 


> I find it fascinating how the Agility people will break down jumping to the smallest components and work on them separately so the dog is really clear on the excercise - while us Schutzhund people just point the dog towards the jump and away they go, either clearing it, or not, and that is about the amount of training they get for jumping.


That's cause if the wind under our dog's tails makes that top bar come down, our ENTIRE RUN is disqualified! So we have had to learn how to get them to keep those feet up (and tails too  ) but in a 100% happy positive way so they really want to jump fun and fast (no avoidance!).


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

I agree with what is being said here about working the jumping separately. And while doing that, no practicing retrieves over a jump 

Likely your girl does this because with no jumping foundation and being asked to jump a fairly high jump, you are seeing her most natural method getting over the obstacle. Some dogs are beautiful natural jumpers, regardless of height and some aren't. But the jumping skill of any dog can be improved over time with proper training and conditioning. I have a 9 year ols dog who's never jumped real well and is prone to taking off early but he's gotten much better recently with regular work on jump chutes (or grids).


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## cindy_s (Jun 14, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> I don't do agility but Schutzhund - I see dogs that have had the same approach in training that you do cindy - and they clear without touching less than 50% of the time. I think MRL hit the nail on the head saying that there is too much stuff going on in a retrieve excercise for the dog understand what part of it they did wrong.
> 
> I find it fascinating how the Agility people will break down jumping to the smallest components and work on them separately so the dog is really clear on the excercise - while us Schutzhund people just point the dog towards the jump and away they go, either clearing it, or not, and that is about the amount of training they get for jumping.
> 
> ...


Nice videos! I'm going to go back and start from scratch with both the PVC jump and grids. I'm going to just have to eat the point or two this time, But I'll have all winter to fix it. Thanks for all the great advice!! You guys really helped me develop a plan.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

When you start with the jump shute, start easy with two or three full strides between jumps (you'll need a lot of room!) Then you work towards one full stride, then a bounce (like in the video - each stride is a jump). Vary it up with different strides between jumps and varied jump heights (I often do low - low- high - low, for example, and other combinations). This is really really hard work for a dog, both mentally and physically as they learn to use their bodies and their brains. Great way to tier them out.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Castlemaid said:


> When you start with the jump shute, start easy with two or three full strides between jumps (you'll need a lot of room!) Then you work towards one full stride, then a bounce (like in the video - each stride is a jump). Vary it up with different strides between jumps and varied jump heights (I often do low - low- high - low, for example, and other combinations). This is really really hard work for a dog, both mentally and physically as they learn to use their bodies and their brains. Great way to tier them out.


Alternatively, what Susan Salo suggest (to get the same one stride/bounce) is to initially have the jumps fairly close to assure the bounce, then as they gain confidence and 'get it' start spreading the distance. Do NOT use full height bars. 

It's the bounce/one stride you want cause that makes the dog really think and learn their takeoff distance. 

I'd almost get the Susan Salo DVD's (Christmas is coming!  ) cause there's alot of detail (like as a handler do NOT move) and things like that....


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