# Bad Fight at Home!



## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have no idea what happened.

I am in Iraq and the dogs are home with hubby. He called me pretty upset tonight. He had tried to call repeatedly and I was out of the office. He finally got ahold of me.

No one was bitten, not even him.

All the dogs were in the garage, he had put them out there and was getting ready to go out and play with them in the yard before work. 

The dogs were in the narrower area of the garage near the car, the garage is pretty good size 2 car garage, very long, and it had one car in it. Kayos was yodelling and barking in excitemnt to go out to play. Max had apparently had enough of her noise and growled at her. She launched herself at him, Havoc joined in. All 3 dogs were involved in what Joe described as the nosiest, most violent dog fight he has ever seen. 

We have been married 16 years and have had multiple GSD's for all of those years. He is no slouch with the dogs. We have had squabbles and scuffles between dogs. I re-homed a rescued female for a very bad fight that ended with my old girl badly bitten up. Joe said this one was worse in it's intensity. If this is true it was really bad. 

He used water thrown on them, did not work, used a chair to try to separate them, did not work. He finnly reached in and grabbed Havoc by the collar (YIKES!) and tossed him outside. Then he came back for Kayos who was still attacking with Max. He had really thought Kayos would quit as soon as Havoc was pulled out, nope she did not.

Max had given up, he simply lay on the floor and let her bite at him. Joe thought he was dead. 

Max is old, he has Cushings and some days does not do well. 

I think Kayos is social climbing. She is 7 and has always been the Omega.

She and Max have had a few pretty serious scufffles since early last summer, usually started by Max. Or so we thought. 

Havoc and Max have had one fight about the time Havoc was 2. He is 2 1/2 now.

I suspect Max is losing his hold over the pack and we have some pack dynamic stuff going on. Max has little patience any more and does growl at the others when he has had enough. This has gotten more frequent I understand. They generally heed his warning and no harm no fowl.

Kayos has turned into the bitch from [heck], according to Joe. She has gotten vocal and pushy. I don't know if there was something going on between them in doggy language that Joe did not see or this was simply Max had enough of Kayos and she took offense. I don't know if the close confines of the space they were in left no out for Havoc, he really did not seem to start the scuffle but may have jumped in to back the leader (Kayos I think). The narrow area may have left no room to pass and Joe may have been the catalyst, Kayos may have been resource guarding him although she has not been a guarder in the past. 

I feel this is very much a shift in pack dynamics that errupted today. As soon everyone was separated and calmed down Kayos was licking Max's face. Havoc was upset a long time. Joe had to go to work as he had an appointment but was able to come back home to check everyone again. Havoc was still upset 2 hours after the fight. He is very emotional. 

I told him he may need to rotate dogs in crates for awhile to see what happens. That means he has to drive home at lunch to let dogs out. I don't trust them all loose in the garage and run all day together now. 

I am upset for Max. He is a grumpy old man now but he deserves his peace. Joe said he just gave up and he thinks they might have killed him.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

wow. I am so sorry this happened. We just went through this last week with our fostered dobie landing at the vets for numerous staples. It took him a couple days but he is trying to play with Jax again.

We rotate the dogs, and have for some time, because Baron or Sierra would start a fight and then all three of our girls would attack Baron. I have no idea what happened with Jax this past weekend but neither would let up much like yours. It's a pretty frightening experience.

Our girls have all calmed down and moved on. It took Jax about a day. The other two weren't involved. Baron is still leery and I don't let him loose in the house unless he's by me to protect him. 

You might try that with Max. I don't even leave the house without making sure Baron is secure somewhere.  I have nightmares about what could have happened to him if we weren't there.


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## mychance (Oct 22, 2007)

Oh Kathy, I sooo feel for you over this. I can only imagine how upsetting this was for you husband and then for you to be so far away. 

We're struggling a bit with this at our house also. Our Roxy Belle will be 12 in March. She's still the same feisty personality, but I know her vision and hearing is limited and she is easily knocked off-balance by the other two. I count myself lucky each day we have general peace, but this is a good reminder that I need to support that by paying really close attention to the doggy language. Roxy may have an endless wardrobe of cranky panties, but (like you for Max) I feel she has earned some quiet.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

OMG, Kathy, what a scary incident! It is so fortunate that no one was bitten and that Joe managed the situation. I can only imagine how upsetting it was for him especially before work. 

I think you are right about the pack dynamics changing, especially that you are not there because you are their ultimate leader. I don't have any advice (I wish I had!) except keeping them separated and supervised which Joe is doing right now anyway. I would never expect such behaviour from Kayos, she's such a sweet girl!! I do feel bad for Max, I think he's hurting and he just wants to be left alone...

What a difficult situation!


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## DianaB (Jan 3, 2007)

oh man, Kathy. Those fights are scary. And your hubby is lucky he did not get bit. When I tried to break up a fight by grabbing a collar, I got bit on the meaty part of my forearm. I was told never never put your arms in there, grab the back legs from underneath and pull back on one of the dogs. I suspect given the tight quarters, this may not have been possible. I get totally freaked out with that. Siena likes to guard me, her balls and food at daycare so it has to be managed very well. When I arrive, of course all the dogs rush to me and I always feel confined, so just keep moving on out so Siena doesn't get reactive.

Are the dogs injured at all, or just scared? Siena is VERY vocal and only once has drawn blood (she got the other dog on the lip when she came in for a sniff of her food and they went at it), other than that, just lots of loud, awful noises.

I think crating them when not around to monitor is a great idea. I am learning more and more what to look for in Siena's posture, etc.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Kathy, that is one of the scariest posts I have read. 

I feel SO badly for Max. 

I bet people won't agree with me, but I have two forms of pack status here. 

One is whatever they kind of chose within reason. Mariele the head injured is not allowed to be alpha, no matter how much natural leadership she has, because, well...no. 

The other is in terms of aggression, especially towards a senior or weaker member of the pack. 

Anyone who does that is frozen out. They are put on the full bore ignore NILIF. They work for EVERYTHING. To put in Stephen Colbert-ese, they are on notice. Any minor thing that they do, they hear about it, nothing physical, but a quick verbal correction. It is like a boot camp. It's not nice or fun for me or them. I have had to do it maybe once or twice. The other dogs were happy to isolate them too. Treats are done. Meals are not served with love, just given, and walk away. It's all attitude, smoke and mirrors. I know people say they live in the moment, don't hold a grudge, but hey, I have 8 dogs...and have had with changes in and out and this is how I do things. I do it for 1 day, see how they seem, and continue if needed. 

I would do that with both younger dogs. Not saying you should. (or Joe, poor Joe)

When Kramer was old, those last few months, he was much snappier with them then ever, so what I did was lessen the chances of him snapping at them down by keeping them from being able to jostle, crowd, etc. So I had to step up my leadership a ton and it was tiring, but until the end he was the boss dog. 

The message to them is, don't mess with "my" dog. The message to him is you don't have to do this part of the job any more, and if you do, I am right there with you. 

Again, no one needs to do this if they disagree, just wanted to toss it out there to you and feel free to argue it!








to you and Joe, and Max most of all.


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## Alto (Nov 18, 2008)

to you & hubby & Max (OK Havoc & Kayos too but I suspect they are ready for/need the change in pack dynamics)

This may also just be triggered by the changes in Max's health (I think his Cushing's has been progressing???) - back how long before you get back home?


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Dog fights are horrific and terrifying. Since no one was hurt you were all fortunate. 

Are you SURE the older dog doesn't have wounds? They are always so difficult to see and dog puncture wounds don't bleed a lot to find them. I really would have your husband go over each of those dogs with a "fine tooth comb" . The sooner the better for treatment if any injury is found ....REALLY have him look them over under a good strong light everywhere.

Unattended/treated dog bites can become very quickly infected and cause lots of problems and vetting.

I've always found it terrifying that when 1 dog jumps another they usually will all join in on the attack. It is so frightening to witness and happens so quickly.



Yes the pack dynamics are changing and with the excitement , the small quarters etc. it was a recipe for disaster. 

Please do not allow him to put these dogs all together again without strictest of supervision and I would say even leave the older one alone with him without any other of the dogs.

Once these incidents happen as you well know ...it WILL continue to happen AND escalate. You may go along months with nothing and then "bam" it is go time again only the next time it gets worse.

I too had to rehome a bitch but not before I myself was bitten getting in between 2 times...scars still their to show for it...she wasn't going after me but the other female.

Good luck and tell him to not let his guard down...can't slip up even for a second once these things begin.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

My thoughts too.... Kayos???!!! Never in my life! 

I did tell Joe to start verbally correcting her noise too, she must be getting out of hand. She has always been vocal but she must be a real loud witch these days.

He said Kayos had Max pinned. Although no one was hurt it was not all noise, she was grabbing at him but she was also grabbing all the fur around his neck which is kind of why it is there. 

Kayos and Max have always been thick as theives.

Poor old Max.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I would tend to agree with you, Kathy. It does sound like there is some shuffling of your pack dynamics. 

Crate and rotate sounds like a good plan. It is a miracle that nobody was bitten. It must be so difficult to hear about this and yet be too far away to do anything yourself. Good thing your husband is on top of it. 
Sheilah


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I know about hidden bites, Max had one from a dog attack years ago. A dog jumped us while we were out walking. It took a few days to find it. Joe says he checked him thoroughly but we will soon know. 

I Have 52 more days over here in [heck].

Jean I like your intense leader style and it is certainly not aproblem for me to do that - when I get home. And I believe that is a good idea to suggest to hubby too. He is in mnay ways a better leader than I am, he is usually more consistent.


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## gsdlove212 (Feb 3, 2006)

I think Jean's advice is sound for this situation. I do not have anything to add, but wanted you to know that I hope it is all resolved and a thing of the past never to be repeated!


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## LHunter82FXRS (Oct 20, 2008)

I don't have any advice to add, but I hope everything will sort it's way out. Many







to you!


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I am heading off to bed here, it is late. I will probably send the link to this thread to Joe tomorrow.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm so sorry this happened, hope Max is doing okay!!! It's frustrating enough to have a nasty fight, I can't imagine how terrible it must be when you're thousands of miles away from home.

I've never had a fight involving a senior, and I've never had a three way fight, so I can't say I'm experieced on this subject.

But if they were my dogs, I think I would be inclined to follow the suggestions of keeping the three dogs separated and using the NILIF program. If things are peaceful for a few weeks, I think I'd allow Max and Havoc supervised time together. Maybe even Havoc and Kayos with supervised visits. But I'd sure be tempted to keep Max and Kayos separated for a very long long long time.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU AND YOUR DH!


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Just wanted to add that I'm so sorry to read this as well. Please send the link on to Joe. I think it has some great suggestions re NILIF program. I would definately seperate Max and make sure he is taken care of, poor boy. I can't imagine hearing this from so far away.


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I'm so sorry your husband (and Max) had to go through that, but it must be a million times worse to be away from home when something like this happens.

I agree with Jean's advice, as that's how I had to run the group when I first got Sasha. She will always want to be the alpha dog, but she doesn't know how to be a good leader and seems to think she's supposed/allowed to bully everyone she that feels is below her (human or animal), and she can get pretty nasty.

Doing the crate/rotate when no one is available to watch will help a lot, but I think Joe should start to implement some of the things Jean mentioned (which ARE very exhaustive but go far towards restoring a sense of balance). Hopefully by the time you get home this will all be a thing of the past.

Kayos sounds a bit like Sasha, vocal, pushy.....just a real *bitch* sometimes. 

Hope Max feels okay.

Also wanted to add that, after having to stop more dog fights than I'd like to admit working at a dog daycare (esp as the official new dog evaluator), that if someone doesn't have a lot of experience, just do what Joe did with water or a nearby object, or pull dogs by the legs, but NEVER just grab the collar. That will get you bitten and a certain coworker of mine still hasn't grasped that concept. You have to grab the collar, twist in a split second, along with a LARGE handful of the skin, and lift the dog off the ground or else that dog can turn and bite. Too many people get bitten because they just don't know what they're doing, or made a poor grab. Fortunately most of the employees I train listen to what I tell them and just go for help. A fight in a pack of 30-50 dogs is not pretty.

Though that part (or dragging by legs/tail) only works if you don't have a dog clamped down on an ear or other delicate part. Had a pitbull that was ripping another dog's ear to shreds, got the "fight" part under control but she just wouldn't let go of the ear. I was all by myself outside with 30 dogs, on solid ice, slipping in blood. Hard to say this but I had to beat the crap out of that dog and had to lay a knee across the back of her neck with all my weight to choke her off. Unbelievable how strong a 35 lb dog can be, when I've broken up several fights with 80+ lb dogs. I love pitbulls, but hate when they're involved in a fight.

Luckily there was just a few splits in the ear which later healed well, and the aggressor didn't have a scratch from my efforts to get her to let go. 

I hate telling that story, but everytime I read about a fight like yours, it brings back memories









Sending healing thoughts towards the whole pack.


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## kshort (Jun 4, 2004)

Kathy, I'm so sorry... And so sorry for Max. The senior dog in the pack doesn't deserve that and it's very hard to see it happen. I think Jean said it perfectly:



> Quote: The message to them is, don't mess with "my" dog.


We don't have a fighting problem between Sammy and Murphy (my 18+ sheltie mix senior), but he has absolutely no respect for her. He would run into her, jump over her, butt in front of her going outside. I finally got PO'd and have worked really hard to stop the behavior. He has to sit and stay and watch me (and hubby) for EVERYTHING. He's very, very vocal also and I've noticed that the more vocal he gets, the more cranked up he gets. He's very obsessive compulsive and has some obnoxious behaviors. Like when he's finally released to go out the door (after Murphy), he feels the need to go to off the deck, turn around and bark (and it's the loudest bark I've ever heard), then run to the back of the yard and bark three times (again, loudly). Then he runs back and if she's in the way, he runs almost right over her or jumps over her. Poor old girl sits there and kind of flinches, because she knows what's coming. We've made great progress, but it's exhausting at times. But he will NOT mess with my Murphy girl! I know none of this is probably helpful to your problem, but thanks for letting me vent about another young dog who's feeling his oats...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWMax had given up, he simply lay on the floor and let her bite at him. Joe thought he was dead.


OMG, how horrifying!!! I saw this in active topics earlier, but until I clicked on it just now I didn't realize it was your thread. I'm really surprised about Kayos, I've never met her but she sounds like a sweet dog. 

Poor old Max.







I have no advice for you, but you've already gotten some good ideas from others who have managed multiple dog packs. Hope things are okay until you can get home.


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

I have had a couple of bad fights start in tight quarters over the years. I think it intensifies their awareness of physical space and dominating it.

And both started when a junior dog that normally gave way did not for whatever reason. Or maybe not fast enough.

I would definately keep your senior seperated as much as possible for now on or out with only one where it can be closely monitered. The seniors I think are vulnerable in a pack type situation, and pack dynamics are not always kind to them.

Jean's idea is excellent. I use different forms of isolation with our dogs at times and it does get their attention but fast.

So sorry this happened Kathy. It must be horrifying for you.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have been pretty fortunate over the years and have had few fights in the house. This was surprising at first but the more I thought about it, it has been brewing all summer before I even left. Kayos has been pushing for awhile and Joe said her hip has actaully healed up better than it was before I left. She had a THR in Sept 08 and it just took a good year for her to fully regain her stamina. 

He said she is not the same dog she was when I left. She is sweet but gotten pushier as she has gotten stronger and Max has gotten weaker. 

Crating Max is hard as he gets so stiff, leaving him loose in the house while the other 2 are in the run all day is not something we want to do either as he has a hard time waiting to potty that long now. We don't have a pet sitter or dog walker here and I am not going to put a non professional in a situation where they may end up breaking up a fight, so I would not ask a neighbor kid to let the dogs out. Weekends are not a problem but the work week is. I wonder if there is a way to put the xpen up in the garage just so he has his own space. That is not really very secure but it is a barrier. 

I guess I will get an update tonight when I call home.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

What about those kennels that could be put in the garage? Much safer. http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752841 or http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2755438 or like that. With the x-pen around it like a barrier. 

I would not leave them all alone unattended. In fact, those two would not have run of ANYTHING. No going in and out on their own. Malamute rescue people I know control resources that strongly. All the time! You want something, it comes from the human. 

After I got done isolating them, we would be doing fast obedience. Sits, downs, heeling, fast fast fast. 3x a day, a couple minutes at a time. 

I would also be watching the meta (?) communication. Hairy eyeballs, body bumping, butt facing, all those little things...and I "EH" them on every move. Ava gives me the "Moi?" face...Ilsa gives me the paw, but they know...I know...

Take care, sorry that this is happening. Poor Max. I just love him.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Me too.......


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## Betty (Aug 11, 2002)

Tractor supply has some pretty inexpensive 10x5 kennels. We use them as out indoor kennel runs.

We bought the AKC ones. Easy to put up and we have them in a whole bunch of different configurations. I like that they are not permanent, we can change them around as our needs change.


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## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAANI would also be watching the meta (?) communication. Hairy eyeballs, body bumping, butt facing, all those little things...and I "EH" them on every move. Ava gives me the "Moi?" face...Ilsa gives me the paw, but they know...I know...
> 
> Take care, sorry that this is happening. Poor Max. I just love him.


What are hairy eyeballs?


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## LHunter82FXRS (Oct 20, 2008)

Just checking in to see if any new updates


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

Just checking in for updates. I like the kennels shown in the link Jean posted. If they cost too much Joe might be able to make something similar in the garage using welded metal mesh or just the chainlink material and securing that to the studs in the garage walls. That way Max can go in there and be safe. You could even put down an astro turf rug for him to use to go potty and he'd still feel like he's going potty in the right place. 

I had to seperate Eli (for other reasons, he's very distructive). I didn't want to crate him all day as he was so big and I wanted him to be able to move around, so I built his own 'kennel' in one of my spare bedrooms. Most people don't have 'spare' rooms but in your case the garage would be an excellant option. 

You might even check Craigslist in Joes area. He might be able to find a freestanding kennel relatively cheap.

Good luck and please keep us posted. 

ps. If you want to let us know the general area Joes in I know some of us would be glad to check the listings on Craigslist, maybe even on line newspapers.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I talked to Joe a few hours ago, he had just got to work and I was getting ready to go to dinner.

Max is out of sorts, confused and very cautious right now. Joe is keeping hm close and is starting Jean's idea of "my dog". He has upped Kayos' obedience and is correcting every pushy move she makes. 

Joe could not find any wounds on him and has checked him 3 or 4 times. His neck is sore tho.

Hubby is pretty sure the close quartes factored in quite a bit and is watching halls and tight places. No more running uo and down the halls anymore for the dogs. They have to move in an orderly manner.

I hope he bounces back.







And I hope my remaining days go quickly.


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## lsoilm1936 (Dec 28, 2003)

The hallway is where the last two fights occurred with my two girls. The last fight a couple of weeks ago has left them both 'touchy' and I'm constantly correcting and watching their body language and stares. I keep an Air Horn close by (yep - that will scare the crap out of them if I can catch them when they first start fighting) and of course, Pollie (the instigator) is always crated when I'm not home. Hallways and doorways (going in and out of the back door). They have never had a fight outside - only in or in process of coming/going outside through the doorway.

I absolutely hate dog fights and don't handle them well. I hope your crew improves.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I would also suggest doing NILIF with all the dogs if he isn't already.

Also wanted to add, if there are no wounds IME I would not call it a bad/serious fight. If a dog is truly serious there WILL be puncture wounds.

I wanted to second what someone else said-- grabbing the collar is a bad idea, it is better to grab the back legs. It's best is there is one person per dog so you can pull them both away and separate them that way; but if alone I would grab a blanket if there is one handy (maybe a tarp if it's a garage) and toss it over the dogs first, then grab the back legs of the aggressor.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

As far as we know there were no punctures, Max is a LC so has very long thick hair at his neck, he was pretty bruised and sore there. I don't knoew if the extra fur kept him from being bitten or it was just another scuffle with a lot of noise like most are. I call those "no harm - no foul" fights. 

Max is bouncing back and he has becomes "Joe's dog". The other 2 seem to be more subdued under more rigorous NILIF too. 

The more I talked to Joe the more I realized how seriosuly he could have been hurt. He already has a bad back and needs surgery when I get home. I guess Kayos was so intent that she dragged him across the floor of the garage on his knees to get bak at Max. Had those dogs turned on him they could have killed him. He was not even bit and he said he knew grabbing them was the worst thing he could have done but he did he had to do for Max. 

This incident was ugly for Joe and he never wants to have more than 2 dogs again. He said 3 is too hard for him and if we continue to deploy it is really too much to ask of him. So no more dogs until Kayos is gone, hopefully a long time from now. I don't expect Max to live much longer, he is struggling. Poor old guy.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Coming late to this thread. I am so sorry for poor Max and for Joe and you being there when all of this is happening.









I don't have anything new to add except that when Massie got older and weaker I saw younger female dogs (dogs we didn't know) challenging her all of the time. When she was younger that never would have happened as she was a true alpha. I had to protect her very carefully when we were in situations with other dogs. 

I hope Max feels better. I love him.


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## Anja1Blue (Feb 27, 2008)

Very sorry to hear about this Kathy, it's extra awful when you are far away and not there to be of assistance. I think you have had some excellent advice from Jean and others.... I would just like to add that I think failing health does play a part. Some years ago, we had an Akita/Chow mix - beautiful sweet girl who died under anesthetic while having her teeth cleaned. An autopsy showed that she had cancer. We did not even know she was ill, there were no red flags jumping out at us, her appetite and level of activity seemed to be normal. However on a number of occasions, and close to the end, dogs we met on walks (and previously very social) weren't as friendly as they had been in the past - one small terrier attacked her on one occasion - others, including our other dog who was old and had his own health problems - would sniff and back off - and it occurred to me later that they knew what we did not, that she was very very sick. I think you can interpret this in a number of ways - a chance to move up in the pack being one of them, a desire not to contract what ever the illness is as another. Good luck - I hope you and your husband are able to restore the status quo and give Max the peace and quiet he deserves..... 

______________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD - adopted from this Board
Blue GSD - waiting at the Bridge


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Intersting Susan. I had mentioned that to Joe as well. Max has Cushings disease and spondylosis and sometimes loses his way. I too wonder if something else is going on or the Cushings is going out of control again. He has to go to the vet in a few weeks and will have his bloodwork done.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Susan, very interesting to read. This is another great reminder that any sudden changes in behavior- even those from other dogs directed to the individual in question- should equal a checkup at the vet. I'm keeping this in mind, for sure.

Kathy, I have no additional advice but I am sending zen, meditative, calm dog vibes the way of your pack and hubby.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I just saw Max on Skype and he looks okay. Came over and sat in fron of the computer and he looked pretty chipper today. He is walking stifly but he is old. He did get up and lie down easily. He and Kayos were laying on the floor behind Joe and I could see them resting quietly together.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Wow, just saw this thread! I'm so sorry









Great advice from Jean (as always). 

I too think they are reacting to the medical condition of Max's.

Joe is very lucky. I had no choice to do a collar grab on Max to keep him from a fight once at training. That's how I earned my bite from a Great Dane. I would have severe nerve damage right now, but someone had filed this boy's teeth down. I'm *really* glad that Joe is okay.

My Max here, I had to teach him not to mess with "my dog" Indy, but I never thought about it in those terms. I have separated them more as she ages and is weaker. 

I am glad that they all seem to be rebounded and there is a plan. How difficult for everyone


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWI just saw Max on Skype and he looks okay. Came over and sat in fron of the computer and he looked pretty chipper today. He is walking stifly but he is old. He did get up and lie down easily. He and Kayos were laying on the floor behind Joe and I could see them resting quietly together.


Awhh...so happy to hear Max is on the rebound. Let him know I'm sending him lots of hugs and wee little kisses.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy I am so sorry that I didn't see this sooner. I am sorry for what Joe had to go through.

This is something that everyone with multiple dogs needs to be aware of as they age. It is very common and natural instict for dogs to try to raise their rank over an older or sick dog. That is just part of their make up. 

I am sure the tight quarters and the excitment to get outside helped trigger the incident. 

BUT here is the part that really bothers me and I am sure that it bothered you also was they fact that Max just layed there, he gave up.

It is up to us humans to protect the older dogs in our pack. 

I see that Joe is making the right moves when he is there. What are the arrangments when he is gone?

Val is such a worry wart with older dogs. They deserve the right to be old and grumpy, they deserve the right to dauddle/shuffle around, they deserve the right not to be harrased by the younger dogs.

I am glad that you got a chance to see Max on the call with Joe.

Val


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## georgiapeach717 (Jan 28, 2010)

i am new and just getting my feelers out here, but Kathy your story touched my heart so I wanted to also extend my sympathies for what happened and I too hope your crew of pups finds peace again. ((hugs))


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## SuzyE (Apr 22, 2005)

this is not uncommon. I had a serious problem over the summer with a pack of dogs that all ended up turning on the old dog. I was pet sitting. total nightmare, rushed the old dog to the vet, $900 later (clients bill) unfortunatly the old dog does tend to get picked on and it is about hiearchy. I even see this with travis trying to bully Paige bit by bit. Today he darn near stated a fight with her but I grabbed him. That is cary and i'm sorry it happened to you guys. I am going to be extra up on Travis's growing attitude because he will see the dark side if he injures paige.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

to Kathyw -thanks for your service in Iraq that is a service to us all
to Max-sending strenghth to an old dog
To all who posted about it being something dog owners/caretakers can understand--maybe NOT
Just a question?Is it really pack dynamics for higher members of a pack to aways bully/attack pack members who are lower/weaker?


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

It's not about attacking a dog that IS weaker/lower (as per its current status in the pack), but if said dog has long held a high position in the pack and has now become weak in the eyes of the lower members, it is then that those lower members may antagonize the weakened alpha in an attempt to take over. The ones doing the bullying are fighting for higher status.

A true alpha dog does not have to bully anyone else around, they will recognize his/her status through body language and other means of communication. There are plenty of "wannabe" alphas that don't know how to be a true alpha and may throw their weight around to keep the higher position since that's the only way they know how to lead--by intimidation. My female is a "wannabe" alpha, therefore I must constantly reinforce to her that she is at the bottom of the totem pole in this house, as she doesn't "deserve" to be higher than any of the other animals.


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## jake (Sep 11, 2004)

I totally agree the wanabees need control.Just wondering if maybe a dog that continues an attack (on a dog that submits and is just laying there)maybe has some kind of problem?Doesn't a normal dog STOP atack when other dog submits?


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

And Kayos is the wannabee. I doubt she will even be alpha when Max dies, I expect it will be Havoc. 

Havoc is still very respectful of Max, he does not push him, but he also does not take any grief from him.

Val, I think Joe has Max in an xpen when he is gone. He moved the other car out of the gargage to make space for it. The dogs are in the garage and dog run when he is at work. I sure do miss my dog walker when we lived in Oregon. The dogs were crated and then walked and played with at lunch time. Can't keep them crated that long without a dog walker in Oklahoma.


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## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: ttalldogI totally agree the wanabees need control.Just wondering if maybe a dog that continues an attack (on a dog that submits and is just laying there)maybe has some kind of problem?Doesn't a normal dog STOP atack when other dog submits?


I think part of that stems from the unstable nature of a wannabe. We had a dog at the dog daycare I've worked at that was a super bully, always going around to other dogs trying to physically "prove" that he was the boss, even to the point of attacking young dogs that had already thrown themselves on the ground in fear/submission. That dog really messed up some of the young dogs over the 3 years he was allowed to terrorize them, but he belonged to a certain person and was therefore a "VIP" dog and couldn't be taken to task like so many of us wanted to.









Needless to say, Nico was not allowed near this dog until he was old enough to handle his own (with me nearby to step in).

Sounds like Joe has things worked out for now, but I hope things settle down quickly, Kathy. I think the worst feeling ever is when you know what your dog has done in the past and therefore are always left on edge, trying to interpret every single little "look" to make sure there isn't something meaningful in it. It's so exhausting, but I'm sure it will be just a thing of the past.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I have alwsys thought Kayos was pretty stable in her head. She is not a nervy or bully dog. She is very confident and outgoing. But like humans, I think you can be confident and outgoing and pretty down to earth but you may not have the wherewitall to be a good leader.


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## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Kathy Sending you a PM.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

I got it...... thanks!


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

It's incidents like yours that make me think 2x, 3x and more about adding a 3rd dog to our home. Much as I'd love more, I don't ever want to have this kind of experience. When I start thinking "I'd really like to try leaving them uncrated when I go to work ..." I remember posts like yours and in the crates they go! 

I'm so sorry for what happened. I feel bad for all of them and your hubby but I'm glad you posted it because it helps keep why I do and don't do some things fresh in my mind. Thank you for sharing.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Yep, no more 3 dogs. That third dog seems to make the pack waht it is. 2 dogs seem to co-exist more peacefully and the lines of "who the leader dog is" are less defined. 

Besides, it is much easier to move with 2 dogs! And we move a lot. 21 days and a wake up!


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

Kathy- Sorry to hear about this. I hope things are going better now. 

I have Red(APBT), Hobie(wolf hybrid) and Judge(GSD). All 3 are fairly pushy, asholey type dogs. They all do well with others if introduced properly. Hobie is 10 years old now, Red is 5 and Judge is 3. Hobie constantly challenges Judge and Red constantly challenges both of them....What I do is, as soon as I hear a growl or see posturing(been happening a lot lately) is correct BOTH or all 3 involved and put them in time outs(a down-stay for 2 minutes) so far that and verbal corrections have kept my pack in balance as I don't care about their little tiffs that they want to have, it's my house and I buy the dog food. I was told not to just correct one dog when the posturing and glares are started but any involved. IDK. if that helps you. 

Good Luck and I never though Red would reign over the boys but she does to a point. lol


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