# Can fear aggression be overcome??



## onyx'girl

I have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.


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## big_dog7777

I do not have a ton of experience with fear aggression, but I do know that an e-collar will likely "blow up" a fear aggressive dog. LOTS of patience and socialization coupled with firm, fair leadership and handling WITHOUT CODDLING is in order. Whether or not you can overcome it will depend on her genetics. At her age, she will be in her most fearful stage, so that could be a good thing (meaning she is not really this bad). Others will post who have a ton of experience in this.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

It can go into remission-that's what I call it. 

You can get the dog as confident as you can, give them good leadership, consistancy, have them as comfortable as possible and allow them to be the best dog they are capable of being. 

You can do it slowly, using desensitization and it sticks for life-remission but no cure-it's always there but not apparent. 

You can do it quickly and then constantly need to reteach it every time. 

That's how I feel about it anyway! But Kramer, Bella, Mariele, and now working on Ilsa (who is







batcrap crazy







) have all (knock wood) done really well using that slow, NILIF, calm, lots of obedience classes, baby step approach. 

Breaking it down-need to think about it more-but look at all of those things above as a whole done very slowly over time and the entire time protecting your dog from a situation, person, event that will cause it to go into a panic. 

For the vet office, many visits over time just popping in for a weight check and a howdy with lots of good treats makes a big difference. 

There are a lot of good sites http://www.k9aggression.com and http://www.goof.com/~pmurphy/shy-k9s-faq.html with a link to the Yahoo shy dog group-worth joining just for the archives. 

Do you have two dogs? How is the other dog?


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## onyx'girl

that is what I thought about the e-collar-it would just ramp it up more...I don't know of any behaviorists around here that I can go to at this time, so am kind of depending on this great site for help, thank you ZuesGSD for your comments! I know not to tell her its ok when she is in that mode-the vet today said at her age, socialization would probably not help...I disagree with that!! She is the only one in the litter that seems to have this as I am in contact w/ her breeder thru e-mail. 
She is 1 1/2 hrs away, and I don't know how much experience she has with f a anyway.


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## scannergirl

At least you know your instincts are right on! That gives you at least a little protection from bad advice!


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## JanH

I agree with what's been said on the ecollar. I think they have their place but a dog already fearful getting 'bit' when she doesn't understand why or where it's coming from can only increase in fear. If they're doing something wrong - sneaking into the garbage or going over a fence - it's one thing. But saying fear is wrong and punishing for it just increases it. JMO. 

Having others be around her, doing things in small steps, riding that fine line between uneasiness to show she'll be ok and the overriding fear when she's not thinking at all is sometimes difficult. As she builds confidence it will get easier. 
Good luck!


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## WiscTiger

I have a fearful dog, while her's is easier to handle because she will just fold up instead of being aggressive, I don't ever want to push her to that point.

Like John said being a FIRM but Fair leader. That is sometimes a lot harder than people realize. Usually there are triggers, the Vet's office, other dogs, etc. Identify the triggers, write them down and since you don't have any help local let's all put out heads together and see if we can come up with some type of program schedule that you can work on.

First with my female when I see she is concerned I have to be very strong, shoulders back, head up so she can feel that I am in charge and she doesn't have to worry. When a dog gets worried and feels that they have to handle all the stresses is when they will either become aggressive or just shut down. So part of this is going to be on you, practice your posture and also keeping your emotions in what I call the nuetral zone, just very very even, that will incourage your dog to be more even, centered or focused.

Val


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## onyx'girl

Once they are fearful, is that always going to be the case or can this be overcome? It seems to me it is in their genetics and is the dogs make-up. This was my breeders first litter w/ her dam, but the father has sired "many litters". I am hoping that down the road this can be overcome. Onyx gets this way whenever anyone she is unfamiliar with approaches her she hackles and growls. If she is the appraocher, she is just fine. 
I don't know if this has any relation to her , but when she was 10 weeks I took her to a 4-H(kids) class w/ breeder and her dogs. Onyx was sitting behind me and the trainer came over and (she is deaf) talked in a loud tone "to get that dog out from behind you" and pulled her out. She submissively peed and again peed when the breeder and Onyx' mom came near to her(we had had her for three weeks by then). I almost think this was an imprinting stage for her and thus the fear agressive behavior began...


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## meganktar

I have a very fearful dog as well although he only barks and growles, he has never tried to bite. I talked to my trainer about it and she said to try to get his attention, and that if he makes a small sound or bark and then looks at me that it is a good starting point. For him the thing that sets him off most is kids, moslty because they do not know how to act around dogs. I would try to get her attention and praise her for that. I use a ball because my boy isint very food motivated.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

The symptoms can go away, the problem is still there. (remission)

I think it is genetic and that breeding dogs who produce dogs with this trait isn't a good thing. It won't shut down the supply of GSDs not to repeat breedings of any two dogs and might help to restore the breed to only use solid, well tested animals for breeding. 

While that experience didn't help, it certainly didn't cause the problem. The problem was there waiting to come out. Other dogs wouldn't have been behind a person to begin with, other dogs can handle a bad experience.


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## onyx'girl

thank you for those links Jean!


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## WiscTiger

It is genetic and in 90 - 99% of the time in can be managed. But the word is managed, but it isn't cured, it doesn't really go away, it is just managed. 

With the Vet's office, if your Vet and staff will work with you, that is something that can be over come. It takes a lot of happy no stress visits to the office. I always do this with my pups, the Vet's office is one of my socialization places because I want my dogs to be as relaxed as possible there. So we go in and sit, do some OB sits and maybe downs if the pup/dog is relaxed enough to handle that. My Vet's office has two scales that are accessable from the waiting room, so we go get on the scale, most of the time when I have a young pup or a new dog the Vet staff if they have time will come and sit and be treat machines for my dogs. There was a good post on the Vet office problem with Timber1 and his dog.

The thing with the breeder at 10 weeks of age, wasn't a good thing possibly a fear period, but a dog with solid nerves would have been able to recover from that, so what I am saying is the problem was there with or without the breeder interaction.

Try to stop people from approaching your dog and let her approach them. Always carry a baggie full of the best treats in the world and have the person feed them to your dog without talking, petting or making a lot of eye contact. Raya wants to sniff people over before they try to touch her, so I am very careful to instruct people let her sniff first.

Are there any class settings in your area?


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## onyx'girl

been thru two classes, two different places. First trainer corrected her when she went under chair, and then growled at the dog next to us(she was 4-6 mos). She didn't give me the chance for correction. After that Onyx was afraid of trainer, but we went thru all 8 classes. Whenever trainer approached, Onyx peed. Next place, had to go thru beginners but was w/ akc kennel club. Trainers knew not to approach, make eye contact. Onyx never peed, but did growl/hackle w/ a lady that brought me a link for a prong. Then at the final class during testing, long down stay, little girl twirling about ten ft. from Onyx-she lunged and growled at child. Kept her eye on the girl for the rest of class. I should have had girl throw her treats,( hind sight) I want to go for more training-will begin hopefully in march, but would like a place that works on issues-so still searching for the right place, not many around here!


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## Brightelf

Onyx could actually benefit from the program in the book "Click to Calm-- healing the aggressive dog" by Emma Parsons. I have never thought I would give this a try, but.. wow. I had no idea something as simple as a clicker could make a dog actually begin to feel in control of a situation in which they normally feel NOT in control and at risk. 
While the program is begun in your livingroom doing simple OB Onyx already knows, in a room she already knows, with zero distraction... in a few weeks, doing a lil click-n-treat(use special, high value treats in these distraction zones)in a very mild outdoor situation, then later after a few weeks in more stressful situations, thinks: "Oh, man.. clicker stuff is happenin'... whoa, I know what THIS means.. time to WORK! Just like at home in my very own comfy livingroom with Mom, when I gotta sit and down and do a watch command and stay and stuff! Hey, wait a minute.. Mom is askin' for one of those things right now I think.. oooooooh, it's SIT! I do WAY GOOD at sit! A snack is comin'! Yummm.. great!! Ok, next is... what.... stay? Down? What's next, Mom? " etc. Her sense of control comes in the idea that she is winning.. succeeding..easy OB she knows. Plus, The clicker takes the handler outta the pic-- our emotions can add to the frazzled dog's responses. Plus-- and this is BIG-- clicker means working.. not bad stuff happening! Working = better focus.. gonna get good stuff! Doggy also thinks "I went to a slightly stressful place today, and.. hmm.. nothing happened bad, I just worked hard, got praise and snacks, all good stuff happened, plus I was in control."
Read the book, then begin the program with Onyx. Weirdly, this can help the dog feel in control, gradually, in new situations in general. Then, move this-- clicker OB training, simple usual stuff she knows already but with clicker-- into gradually more stressful situations. 
Another technique very useful (but also takes a loooonnng time) is click-and-treating in the midst of slightly stressful situations for when she does ANYTHING that indicates calmness-- finally rolling onto her hip while in a down position, sighing, etc. at the park while watching noisy, active kids playing soccer, for instance.
The clicking removes conflict.
I honestly have never been a big fan of the clicker idea... but seeing it in action is amazing! This kinda program takes a long time. But, it can help build confidence in her, distract-then-make-positive -associations-in-stressful-situations, and mark GOOD behavior (in her mind, it becomes GOOD behavior to relax) in these situations.
Wishing you and beautiful Onyx the best!!


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## Brightelf

Forgot to add.. really upping her NILIF and your leadership at home had a hugely calming effect when you go out, as Jean and John have said. Why should she worry, when scary situations and your responsibility as super-duper-alpha to handle, not hers? Whew!


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## WiscTiger

The one BIG thing I have learned about training facilities and trainers is the many of them don't have a clue about GSD's and usually even less with fear based issues. I will tell you I have NEVER let an instructor correct MY dog. I am very proactive when it comes to my dogs unless there is a reason, the only corrections come from me or my DH, but I prefer to not use more positive and corrections are more for proofing. 

Where ever you are out and have a chance of meeting some one have the worlds best treat with you, like bits of steak, roast, cheese, or in Raya's case carrotts, she will do anything for carrotts.


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## Cassidy's Mom

I agree that management will be key, and genetics definitely can't be changed. But you CAN work on changing her emotional response to stressful situations, as others have mentioned. I just finished a book called Control Unleashed, which might be very helpful to you. It's written, and the program was designed, for reactive dogs in agility, but the exercises could be used with any dog, even companions who will never compete in anything. She very clearly explains the concepts and the reasoning behind them, which are to basically reframe the experience from a negative, fearful, stressful one into a positive one. One of the exercises is called "There's a dog in my face!", and it teaches the dog that having strange dogs running up to them unexpectedly is a predictor of good things. Take away the fear, you take away the reason for the aggressive display, rather than just correcting the behavior without dealing with the underlying cause, which is what an e-collar would do.

It's not going to "fix" a seriously aggressive dog, and you might need to carefully manage her environment for life - or not, hard to know from a post on the internet how serious this is, nor am I a behavior expert. But I do know from previously having a fear reactive dog that you can make a lot of progress if you work at it. Jean is the poster child for that, with her house full of weird and wonderful doggers! Finding a competent trainer who is experienced in aggression, fear, and phobias, or a group class designed specifically to work with 'issues' dogs would help a lot.

Jean Donaldson's Dogs are From Neptune is also a good book for counter-conditioning and desensitization techniques. 

Edited to add: I haven't read Click to Calm, as Patti suggests, but I've heard great things about it!


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## BowWowMeow

I've had two fear aggressive dogs. All of the book suggestions are good ones. I have Click to Calm and it's very helpful. I think using shaping exercises to build her confidence is also a good idea. And I strongly agree that she needs to know at all times that you can handle everything. Once they really get that--that you can take control of and handle confidently any situation--they do relax. I had a lot of luck teaching focus exercises and then going out into the world with a treat bag, clicker and working the dogs. 

As Jean says, it is a lifetime commitment but it can and will get better once you've got a daily counter conditioning program in place. Both of mine were so much better that people commented they couldn't believe it was the same dog.


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## Bedlem3342

After reading these posts i am beggining to wonder if my dog has some sort of fear in her too, i think someone mentioned that.I rememeber taking her to a friends house ,they had 4 dogs , and the whole time she hid under the table.









I dont know what to tell you because i am still learning.

My question is does she urine when lots of people interact with her at one time? Mine does ,is that fear?


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## big_dog7777

Bedlam your dog is absolutely fearful. All of the growling is fear based. Following through on your plan will help this greatly.


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## debbiebrown

it all depends to what degree the fear is and what triggers it.

fear issues can be somewhat inherited, but doesn't mean you can't work with it. if you start early and stick with it you can usually manage it for life. although if you let your guard down and things aren't constant, or something might always trigger it when you least expect it. learning how to handle your dog in these situations is what you need to work on. leadership, also being calm and not showing any apprehension yourself in situations is so important. any types of fear issue dogs are going to really take off if they feel the owner is the least bit tense. so, be aware of what your doing as well.
teaching focus exercises and desensatizing would be the two most important things.

debbie


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## onyx'girl

Thank you, all for the advice and I will find the "click to calm" book and read it. I know most trainers are just going thru the motions, sit stay, heal, and don't know GSD's, but both of mine have them and that wasn't the issue. I also didn't want the trainer to correct my dog, she just did it first time, first class(maybe thinking she would have the upper hand on my dog and me). This is the reason I am asking here. Jean thanks again for the links, the aggression one will be of interest, but I think you guys here are more trustworthy w/opinions and good information! I do practice NILIF and show her that I am the one to look to as a leader. 
There is much support here and I truely appreciate it!


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## DHau

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlI have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.


Tosca does not like go to the vet's office and she's only 6 months old. Whenever I need to pick up Frontline or Heartguard, I take her in with me just to show her that she isn't going to get stabbed or poked everytime she walked in through the door. I always ask the staff to interact with her as well.


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## onyx'girl

I do have two GSD's and both went to vet today for rabies shot. Kacie was fine, but when Onyx went "red zoney", Kacie leaned against me for comfort and wouldn't leave my side. As we left the exam room a cute baby gsd mix was in the waiting room) Onyx was back to normal and wanted to just sniff around, so we did that(not near baby), no one approached her and she was ok. I do take them occasionally for weight check, and the staff knows not to approach Onyx. I carry treats all the time. Outside there is a pasture with horses, so we walked over and the four horses came to the fence, one at a time. Kacie was fine with them, even sat w/ her back to them. Onyx took longer to warm up but all got along ok, her terms. It was cute to see her go from afraid of them to mutual sniffs. I got pics on my phone, so that was really a nice ending to the vet visit!


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## WiscTiger

When you know you are going to have to go to a stressful place with Onyx, it might be easier to help her if she was the only dog with you. I wouldn't want one of my other dogs with DeeDee because I need to give her my full attention and help support her through her problems.

LOL, she is good at manipulating our male, she has him now trained if they are out playing and she gets scared, he comes to the door and barks and barks and barks with his BIG voice until we come to get her. So he would be no help and my one female, just hates her even worse when she acts like that.

I have key words that I use with DeeDee, that I taught her when we worked through some of her other fears, it is "No big Deal and DeeDee BIG girl" So when she hears one of these she seems a bit better, not so jumpy and pays more attention to me.


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## LouCastle

Any trainer who wants to use an Ecollar to "correct" aggression (meaning that he's going to press the button when the dog shows aggression) is an idiot. EVERY manufacturer of Ecollars recommends against this. 

You can make the problem WORSE, not better. The dog being stimmed when giving a display of aggression (hackling, lunging, growling, showing teeth, etc.) thinks that the other dog "bit" it from a distance. The way to prevent that is to stop the display (which gives the owner some warning that the dog is becoming aggressive). Now the owner has no warning. I've seen dogs go from calm to murder without any warning beforehand. 

But the Ecollar is a GREAT tool for treating fear aggression in dogs. By first teaching the dog the recall and the sit, with my methods, the dog learns that fear is unwarranted and that if the dog merely holds his ground, nothing bad happens. 

Here are two success stories about fear aggressive dogs, rehabilitated with the Ecollar. 

Http://loucastle.com/simon.htm

Http://loucastle.com/roma.htm


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## onyx'girl

I am taking Onyx an hour away to a great facility that owner also breeds GSDs - Alta Tollhaus, http://www.24kgsd.com/ and the training place is Taking the Lead http://www.michigandog.com/. I wanted to go there in the fall but due to weather conditions I was putting it off. I look forward to Sat. and meeting w/Julie, she sounded like she will be able to help us with private lessons. I also ordered Click to Calm and Control Unleashed from Amazon, and Control Unleashed seller was michigandog(co-incidence?)-I look forward to reading these books!


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## abooot99

Just to add to the above, I have a fearful reactive dog as well. We just went to a behaviorist on Tuesday. He gave me awsome advice that really made sence- other posters pretty much said it but I want to share what he said about my dog. First, I show up with a pinch collar and choke chain on my dog with his leather lead. He tells me that using these two items with a fearful dog does nothing besides cause pain when they get "emotional". He said you can't change emotions (fear is an emotion) and so what you do when you correct him is cause pain for feeling an emotion and acting on it. So he instructed me to get a gentle leader. Then he gave me an analogy- say your sitting on a plane and when the plane takes off, you have an anxiety attack, can't sit still, antsy, thinking your going to die and your all worked up. The person next to you starts squirting you with a squirt gun every time you show your anxiety and fear. Now, this won't solve your fear problem. It probably will upset you and cause more negative emotion. So, say in the same situation, someone sits down next to you and shares some of your favorite candy and talks with you about what you do with your dogs- they are super into their dogs too, you engage in conversation, eat the yummy food and suddenly, you relax and land. He said, you would probably deal with the second scenario much better than the first. So as you can see, it makes perfect sense that correcting a fearful dog does nothing but escalate the problem. So what he had me do was stand in a corner, he brought his nice calm dog in and stood across the room. When my dog looked at the other dog, he got a yummy piece of venison. Then after he took it, he looked again at the strange dog and the instructor told me to give him another piece. So, the entire consult, every time he looked at the dog, he got something yummy to the point where he got to meet this dog with no growling or any response besides looking up at me for a treat....desired response. So, it was so nice to see him in the same room as another dog with no reaction- he gave me a book to read- Fiesty Fido- which talks about this desensitization technique and so far so good. I am going to attend his fiesty fido class for 6 weeks- has 6 reactive dogs and turns them into super mannered dogs- this was awsome.....of course this cost me $133 but I was super impressed with the results and will be attending the reactive dog class for more practice. Good luck! : )


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## pinkanml

Sasha was extremely fear aggressive (and territorial to boot) when I got her, so I can sympathize. She was bad enough that she would prefer to take the initiative and attack people rather than duck and run given the chance.

I definitely do NOT agree with your vet that Onyx is too old for socialization to help. Sasha was 3.5 when I got her last summer, and trust me, the effort I put in with her really helped her. 

At first, I had to be a bit forceful (not harsh, just had to be physical at times) with her to get her under control, as she and I didn't know each other long/well enough to have a good respectful and trusting relationship. I prefer using positive methods whenever possible, but when people's safety is at risk (and dealing with a dog with a bite history), I will use whatever is needed to get the job done asap. So, at least you and your girl will be starting from a good place.

What you need to do is really ramp up the NILIF in all situations. It's great if she listens and looks to you at home, but she needs to start applying it to all situations, regardless of whether she is scared or not. If she truly looks upon you and trusts you as her pack leader, she'll rely on you to protect her and will let you handle any scary situations, even if it means trusting your judgment when you tell her it's okay to allow a vet to examine her. 

Once she learns to behave and to look to you before acting upon her emotions, you can set up positive interactions and experiences for her so that her fear can be reduced. First establish control, then work on her feelings. For instance, I did strict NILIF with Sasha, as well as reinforcing my command to sit (whatever redirection command I was using) with a prong if she were to ignore/break the command to lunge/snap at a person. She got a ton of praise for obedience, and once it became a habit for her to calmly sit and watch people going by, I began re-socializing her with people tossing treats, etc. 

I think there is a big difference between correcting the fearful behavior, which will only confuse her and make it worse, and correcting for disobedience under distraction (which can be excitement, stress, fear, whatever, it's all distraction). I'd make sure to see a person coming down the street before she did, tell her to sit-stay, and only corrected her if she broke it. I didn't correct initially for growling or barking, just worked on one thing at a time. If I didn't see the person in time and give her a command, I did NOT correct her for the lunge/snap. 

Once I got her to understand she could not attack people, because *I* would protect her and decide who was dangerous, I was able to let people get close enough so that we could have positive experiences. In her case, I had to be sure she was safe to be around people before risking taking her out to parks, stores, etc for her to get used to strangers. She also began going to work with me (doggie daycare) where we always have clients in/out as well as all the staff. 

Another thing that helped I think was having Nico as a good example for her. She'd hang back behind me and watch him get all the attention from strangers, and over time she would start to follow him when he'd go meet people, though she took a long time before allowing herself to be pet. If she reacted, he'd just look at her like "What's your problem, don't want some nice treats and attention? Fine I'll hog it all." So, I think having him take the pressure/attention off of her when out in public also helped. 

It only took a month or two for her to become a whole new dog. Her general anxiety (pacing, tail chasing, panting) was gone within a week and the reactiveness within the next few weeks. I can take her anywhere, have people approach and pet her, anything. While she is reserved and would rather not mingle, she isn't the fearful, snarly nervebag she use to be and she is polite and reliable in public. No panting, averted eyes, nothing. Total calm and relaxation around new people now. She even gets up on the couch and chills out with visitors in the home, so she's not just a managed aggressive dog who is trained to behave. She truly is comfortable with strangers.

If something does upset her for some reason, she will move behind me automatically to let me handle it. I think it's really been a huge weight lifted off her shoulders to know that she can rely on me to deal with anything the world throws at her. 

Onyx can get over it, it will just take some extra effort. Feel free to PM me whenever if you want. BTW, Sasha is getting her CGC soon. She can get it now, but I only have time (today is the day, actually) to get Nico done. Sasha will take her test next time this evaluator is available this Spring. Just goes to show a fear aggressive dog CAN be turned around. Not just managed/controlled, but truly changed, and they don't necessarily have to be very young. 

Good luck to you and your girl!


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## onyx'girl

Aboot99-thank you for sharing that, it does help to see the mindset of the dog...Julie, the trainer told me to bring my gentle leader and not the prong. And NO muzzle! I have used the gentle leader very seldom, as the class I took last only wanted choke, or prong, and I was fine w/ that. Onyx isn't dog reactive, it is when she is approached by people and she doesn't like little kids. I can't wait til Saturday, just got the Click to Calm book today so I have some reading to do before then! Julie does use clicker training. Not sure how much other than consult will be done first time, but it is a drive, so I hope things go well. 
I have also been in contact w/ Onyx breeder and she said in the litter, Onyx was alpha female, wouldn't stop playing when the others wanted to and played very rough. She also stated that this is why there are so many GSD's given up to shelters and rescues, because many people will not spend the time to help their dog, they just give them up( She was the last female in the litter, and DH wanted her, but breeder recommended a male. DH wanted Onyx! We have had past experience w/ GSD mix male so we weren't new to the breed. I am glad DH chose her!!!
pinkamnl-I agree it does help having another stable dog to show things are just fine! Kacie is the way Nico is, but sometimes I think it would have been better to have Onyx alone-I think sometimes she acts as if "kacie has my back, so I can act this way"( I know~ it is just my opinion) We do go to training seperately, but I walk them together. I do practice NILIF and am trying to get all family members to be consistant w/ this. 
Thanks for the offer of PM, any help is appreciated!


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## towtrip

Onyx,

PM me. Depending on where in SW Michigan you're located, you may be within reach of a fabulous trainer we use in NW Indiana.


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## LUV_GSDs

I believe that fearful dogs should never have negative training (ecollars etc) ONLY positive training. It may take you a little longer to get where you are going but once you are there you know it and won't question how the dog will react. Fearful dogs only become more fearful when treated with negatives or pain from ecollars. Lots of treats and praise and above all you have to get the dog to FOCUS on you.


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## LUV_GSDs

Just wanted to add that pulling on any collar even a head halter is still negative so please try a agitation harness. I have my dog on a leather harness with a padded breast plate and she is much easier to handle than on a collar.


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## onyx'girl

Update: Well, I went there this Sat. for a private lesson, and Julie was great in helping me w/ Onyx. She even saw first hand her level of aggression. We had been there an hour or so, Julie had ignored her for the first ten min's or so(talking about her history), then she gave treats when Onyx finally gave her a sniff, and then waiting for eye contact eventually. I then let Onyx wander the area on a 4 ft leash, while we talked. A construction guy came in the back door to use the bathroom, and Onyx was about twenty feet from me. Well, she charged the guy, barking and growling, and Julie told him to turn around. I grabbed Onyx as fast as I could, but she was already to him...She didn't bite, so that was good, as she has never bitten. Immediately after that, Julie told me to walk her to the other side of the room and see if she would take a treat from me, she wouldn't. So her anxiety was really ramped up from that incident. Julie suggested "stuff the dog" meaning give treat(giving kibble, or very small pieces) for everything Onyx does positively. And to get her out of any situation that gives her a feeling of fear. Baby steps. She also suggested no group training, as it will push her beyond her limits at this time. Slow socializing, from the fringe, and not to take her in pet shops, go in the parking lot, treat, and more treat , back in the car....
She also told me that the gentle leader collar should be high up on the neck near the "crinkles" of the ear as there are calming nerve endings, pressure points there. It helps to calm the dog when they are feeling the pressure of the collar. Onyx never pulled, she was great on the collar. Even outside with the dogs in the breeding facility barking, she was very easy to handle. I will work on the suggestions she gave me and try to read as much as possible( If I can get away from this site long enough) The past couple of days, though Onyx keeps going after my old girl Clover, and starting fights. I discussed this w/ Julie as well, so another thing that we have to work on...


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: LUV_GSDsI believe that fearful dogs should never have negative training (ecollars etc) ONLY positive training. It may take you a little longer to get where you are going but once you are there you know it and won't question how the dog will react. Fearful dogs only become more fearful when treated with negatives or pain from ecollars. Lots of treats and praise and above all you have to get the dog to FOCUS on you.


I have no idea of what you mean by the term "negative training." The Ecollar is certainly not "negative" by any scientific or common use of the term. So-called "reward based trainers" have used the term to mean anything other than what they do. 

My two success stories cited earlier show that an Ecollar certainly CAN be use with fearful dogs. 

It's not necessary that an Ecollar cause "pain" but thinking that it must is a common misconception.


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## bearlasmom

not to step on any toes here but have you ever felt the charge from an ecollar? they give a heck of a jolt. i had considered using one on bearla to train her and divert her with her fear aggression. That is until my vet let me feel it. she advised against them and said it actually makes fear aggression worse.


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## bearlasmom

is there a center in toronto ontario that he knows of?


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## scannergirl

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> LUV_GSDs said:
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that fearful dogs \
> I have no idea of what you mean by the term "negative training." The Ecollar is certainly not "negative" by any scientific or common use of the term. So-called "reward based trainers" have used the term to mean anything other than what they do.
> 
> 
> 
> We just had this discussion on another forum. "negative" means taking something away, while "positive" means adding something. "Reinforcement" means encouraging a behavior while "punishment" means discouraging a behavior. So when I fold my arms and put my back to Lucy if she jumps that's really negative punishment, (because I'm removing attention) and an e-collar would be positive punishment (adding a shock to discourage a behavior)
> People cringe when I tell then my horses are primarily negative reinforcement learners (like all horses, truth be told). They think I beat them- but all it means is I apply the pressure, for example my right leg behind the girth, until they move their hind end away and then I remove the pressure, thus reinforcing the action.
Click to expand...


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## Catu

> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomnot to step on any toes here but have you ever felt the charge from an ecollar? they give a heck of a jolt. i had considered using one on bearla to train her and divert her with her fear aggression. That is until my vet let me feel it. she advised against them and said it actually makes fear aggression worse.


Did you asked your vet what level she used? If her intention was to scare you because she don't like e-collars she could have you give you the max intensity and that is. Lower intensities barely tickle and if all you want is to divert attention is indeed gentler than a prong or a Halty.

I've felt e-collars infinity of times, multiple of them, different brands. When I have mine in the hands I can stop playing with it and giving myself stims just because it feels funny. I need level 3 just to start feeling it. I invite you to "feel the jolt" with someone not biased against the tool.


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## towtrip

When someone will strap a shock collar on their child and give me the controller, THEN I will believe them that "they don't really hurt."

Until then, there is no shock collars (or pinch or choke collars, either) in my house.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomnot to step on any toes here but have you ever felt the charge from an ecollar?


Yes, and so have all my clients and so have most of the people who attend my seminars. I also test my collars every day, by feeling the stim, before I put them on the dogs. 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomthey give a heck of a jolt.


I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They _"can" _give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up. 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomi had considered using one on bearla to train her and divert her with her fear aggression. That is until my vet let me feel it. she advised against them and said it actually makes fear aggression worse.


It's obvious that your vet is NOT the person to consult as to whether or not to use an Ecollar. I suggest that vets stick to medical conditions, few of them know ANYTHING about training a dog and fewer still know anything about Ecollars. 

I've demonstrated with my two success stories that an Ecollar CAN be used to treat fear-aggression. It has to be used properly, but that's amazingly easy to do. 

I have no doubt bearlasmom that used as you probably used it you easily could have made the problem worse. But it's a mistake to assume that's the only way that the tool can be used.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FWhen someone will strap a shock collar on their child and give me the controller, THEN I will believe them that "they don't really hurt."


I'd not hand you the transmitter as it's obvious that you'd crank it up to prove a (nonexistent) point. There's no reason to do this when using the Ecollar to train a dog. I suggest that you red my articles instead of assuming how an Ecollar can be used. 

I've put Ecollars on hundreds of children and stimmed them. Their response? They giggle! 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FUntil then, there is no shock collars (or pinch or choke collars, either) in my house.


I've heard this from many people, only to have them later, call and ask for help with an Ecollar with a new (difficult) dog.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: LucinaWe just had this discussion on another forum. "negative" means taking something away, while "positive" means adding something. "Reinforcement" means encouraging a behavior while "punishment" means discouraging a behavior. So when I fold my arms and put my back to Lucy if she jumps that's really negative punishment, (because I'm removing attention) and an e-collar would be positive punishment (adding a shock to discourage a behavior)
> People cringe when I tell then my horses are primarily negative reinforcement learners (like all horses, truth be told). They think I beat them- but all it means is I apply the pressure, for example my right leg behind the girth, until they move their hind end away and then I remove the pressure, thus reinforcing the action.


Good succinct explanation of the terms Lucina. Just one thing. The Ecollar (used as I do, on the continuous setting) is positive punishment when the button is pressed. And negative reinforcement when the button is released. It's exactly as you describe in your last paragraph with "pressure" on the horse. You apply pressure with the Ecollar and them remove it to reinforce the behavior.


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## towtrip

> Quote: I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.


Hmmmm.... why even have a setting that permits the dog to be given such a shock. How many people do you think actually keep the device on the "tickle" setting? The fact of the matter is that these devices are designed and intended to cause pain to the dog. The fact that some people may take a more humane approach does not make them more useful or advisable. 

Any dolt with a credit card can buy one of these things and slap it on their puppy. They think that "maximum" is the best and they end up having neurotic, frightened, confused, untrusting dogs.

I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar." One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....


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## jarn

any training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh. 

e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.


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## towtrip

> Originally Posted By: jarnany training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.
> 
> e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.


Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated.


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## jarn

i'm sorry, i just don't understand why physical abuse would create mental problems in one instance, and not the other. are you saying a dog abused w/a training tool other than an e-collar would only have physical issues, not mental ones? i'm just trying to understand this.


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## LouCastle

Susan I asked you to read some articles and it's seems that you haven't bothered to take that advice. May I ask your experience with Ecollars? Ever felt the stim from one where you first perceive it? That's where all my basic work is done. Ever seen one used as I advocate? Or is all your experience in only seeing it used to punish unwanted behavior? 

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: I'm sorry but this IS NOT TRUE! They "can" give a heck of a jolt but it's not necessary that they do for training to occur. It's easy to avoid this, don't turn it up.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F Hmmmm.... why even have a setting that permits the dog to be given such a shock.


When first starting to work with a dog you find his "working level of stim." That's the level he first feels when he's not distracted, or, when he's least distracted in a given environment. But later on, when he IS distracted, he'll not feel that level of stim at all. When that occurs, one turns the stim level up until it IS felt. But it's still, in his distracted state, where he first feels it. 

Depending on the dog's balance and levels of drives, Ecollars need to offer various levels of stim. You felt a high level of stim when you were at rest, so naturally it was "quite a jolt," as you described it. But if that level was applied when you were highly distracted, you probably would not have felt it at all. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F How many people do you think actually keep the device on the "tickle" setting?


Anyone who is following my methods. There's no reason to do otherwise. It hinders the training and so, is counterproductive. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact of the matter is that these devices are designed and intended to cause pain to the dog.


No you're quite wrong Susan. The earliest models were invented to cause pain. They were designed to stop hunting dogs from chasing deer. They were designed to put the dog into avoidance, to have him fear the deer to get the chasing to stop. But modern versions can be used to teach with and so they're designed with many levels so that the level that the dog first feels can be used. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F The fact that some people may take a more humane approach does not make them more useful or advisable.


It's EXACTLY that fact that coupled with the more modern design that makes them BOTH "useful" AND "advisable!" 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F Any dolt with a credit card can buy one of these things and slap it on their puppy.


_Any dolt with a credit card can buy ANY training tool and slap it on their puppy. _ Many of them can cause serious injury, even death. An Ecollar can cause neither. It's probably the safest tool extant used in dog training. It can cause pain if used at too high a level but it CAN NOT cause any injury. 

ANY tool can be misused. ANY tool can be abused. No tool is idiot-proof to the right idiot. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F They think that "maximum" is the best and they end up having neurotic, frightened, confused, untrusting dogs.


Or they can read my articles and end up with a happy dog that can be trusted off leash at great distances. And those who use Ecollars always have an insurance policy. If the dog disregards a command, we're the only ones who have another chance to enforce it. 

The proper response here is EDUCATION. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar."


I've trained a few dogs and HAVE NEVER HAD ONE that didn't respond to the Ecollar. I'll suggest that the person using the tool in your case simply didn't know how to use it. If that were to happen with a choke chain or a pinch collar, tools FAR MORE LIKLELY to be used, if only because of the cost factor, serious injury, even death might result. The dog may not make it to the shelter. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....


This is NOT TRUE!!!!! No modern Ecollar has the power to cause any burns on a dog's neck. The ONLY injury that can result is some sores from either too loose or too tight a collar strap. That causes friction and/or moist eczema that can cause irritation that if ignored (more evidence that the person didn't know what they were doing) can get infected. 

But it's IMPOSSIBLE for a modern Ecollar to cause burns. 

To give you some idea of the relative levels of some familiar devices compared to the Ecollar: An Ecollar used, as I advocate, emits 0.000005 Joules. An abdominal energizer, one of those passive stomach exercisers, emits 0.914 joules, almost *183,000 times *more powerful. An electric fence charger emits 3.2 Joules, *640,000 times * more powerful. A defibrillator emits 360 Joules, *72,000,000 times *more powerful. A defibrillator may cause some first degree burns, "redness," but those are 72 MILLION TIMES more powerful than an Ecollar. 

It's best if, in these conversations we stick to facts, not myths or misconceptions.


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## LouCastle

Earlier Jarn wrote,


> Quote:any training device misused is unsafe, and can be inhumane. i've heard of people who've rescued dogs with gentle leaders cut into their flesh.
> 
> e-collars have different levels, for one reason, b/c dogs have different levels of hardness. just like humans.





> Originally Posted By: Susan F Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated.


Medical issues often are beyond being fixed. It's easy for a dog to develop an infection from an imbedded collar of any kind. Those can cause death. No Ecollar has ever been responsible for the death of a dog. 

That's not even mentioning the injuries that can result from other tools. The Ecollar can't cause any of those. MANY of them can't be "permanently fixed," such as injuries to trachea and cervical vertebrae AND they can just as easily as the Ecollar cause "emotional and behavioral damage."


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## DianaM

> Quote:I've had two fosters who were dumped in the shelter because they "wouldn't respond to the shock collar." One even had holes burned into his neck. Tell me again that these things are safe....


ANY tool can be misused. The e-collar just happens to be very easy to misuse. I think it's borderline abusive when people put buckle collars on their dog and let them pull like sled dogs on crack, to the point where they're choking and coughing and sputtering. That can't be good. Someone even posted here that some doggie day care person was using haltis as muzzles. Oops. Prongs can be misused, chokes can be really misused, anything in the wrong hands can be misused. 

The person who burned holes in their dog's neck should be barred from owning anything that qualifies as living. I guess some people just think that pushing the button on the e-collar makes a dog instantly sit. Push it a different way, it'll down. Push it five times in a row on setting 63, it'll do your laundry. Don't blame the tool when the problem clearly exists with the user. Same with guns. Quit blaming the inanimate object and blame the darn buffoons who'd abuse anything they'd get their hands on, intentionally or because they enjoy their ignorance too much to learn.


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## StGeorgeK9

Well Lou, I can back you up on the stim level making kids giggle......LOL Even my daughter said she liked the sensation...well if the e-collar turns up missing I'll know where to loook!!! And I have tried it my self.........I know exactly what it feels like at the first of stim......It does feel kinda funny.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlUpdate: Well, I went there this Sat. for a private lesson, and Julie was great in helping me w/ Onyx. She even saw first hand her level of aggression. We had been there an hour or so, Julie had ignored her for the first ten min's or so(talking about her history), then she gave treats when Onyx finally gave her a sniff, and then waiting for eye contact eventually. I then let Onyx wander the area on a 4 ft leash, while we talked. A construction guy came in the back door to use the bathroom, and Onyx was about twenty feet from me. Well, she charged the guy, barking and growling, and Julie told him to turn around. I grabbed Onyx as fast as I could, but she was already to him...She didn't bite, so that was good, as she has never bitten. Immediately after that, Julie told me to walk her to the other side of the room and see if she would take a treat from me, she wouldn't. So her anxiety was really ramped up from that incident. Julie suggested "stuff the dog" meaning give treat(giving kibble, or very small pieces) for everything Onyx does positively. And to get her out of any situation that gives her a feeling of fear. Baby steps. She also suggested no group training, as it will push her beyond her limits at this time. Slow socializing, from the fringe, and not to take her in pet shops, go in the parking lot, treat, and more treat , back in the car....
> She also told me that the gentle leader collar should be high up on the neck near the "crinkles" of the ear as there are calming nerve endings, pressure points there. It helps to calm the dog when they are feeling the pressure of the collar. Onyx never pulled, she was great on the collar. Even outside with the dogs in the breeding facility barking, she was very easy to handle. I will work on the suggestions she gave me and try to read as much as possible( If I can get away from this site long enough) The past couple of days, though Onyx keeps going after my old girl Clover, and starting fights. I discussed this w/ Julie as well, so another thing that we have to work on...


Great update! 

I second baby steps. I used to sit in playground parking lots, in my car, feeding Kramer hot dogs...waiting to get arrested







to work on his kid aggression. That wasn't his fear aggression-he has/had that too. 

All that hard work over time (and many other steps) worked when a kid unexpectedly gave him a TIGHT hug a few years ago and he only growled. A lot of people would be disappointed if their dog growled, I was happy that kid walked away and was so proud of my boy! 

Systematic desensitization is a good phrase to google for you onyx'girl!


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## Brightelf

I am sooooooooooooo proud of you and Onxy!!!!!! Ok, so I have no wonderful advice yet... but I am cheering you two on!! Onyx has such a wonderful owner to find a great trainer for her and work so hard with her on her road to healing.







You two are going to be such a strong team!


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## onyx'girl

Thanks Jean & Patti for the support! I can't imaging having a boring dog to work with after dealing with Onyx, and she is challenging me to really learn so much about the dog pyche


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## Brightelf

More Kramer stories, more Onyx stories!! The rest of us with reactive dogglers can really learn from you!


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## Romance

> Originally Posted By: Susan F


Imbedded collars don't cause the emotional and behavioral damage that shock collars do. Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," behavioral issues caused by shock collars can only be mediated. [/quote]

YEP a collapsed trachea from a miss used choke collar is a permanent fix...if you don't get to the vet fast enough your dog is dead...pretty permanent.
with *ANY* training device it has to be used correctly to work.
you get all kinds of idiots that don't read or listen to the correct way to use things and that's were your going to run into problems.
Those citronella collars...I hate those because when the dog gets the correction spray the citronella is still there burning him even after he has stopped barking. the punishment goes on and on and on.


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## Romance

hmmm the quote thing didn't work

<span style="color: #FF0000">Medical issues can be permanently "fixed," </span>


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## towtrip

> Quote: YEP a collapsed trachea from a miss used choke collar is a permanent fix...if you don't get to the vet fast enough your dog is dead...pretty permanent.


I agree. My prior comment about "imbedded" collars, not choke collars. Imbedded collars are the result of neglect, not abuse. In fact, they're probably the opposite of abuse because the dog simply doesn't have enough human contact for them to notice that the dog's skin is growing around the collar. 

Imbedded collars can be surgically removed and the dog can heal from it.

If you read earlier ... I don't condone choke chains or pinch collars, either. I don't believe in the "no pain, no gain" theory of dog training. I've never had to go there with any of my dogs. Just as Lou continues to advocate FOR shock collars, I will continue to advocate AGAINST them. There are just as many resources that are educational in training dogs without shock collars, choke chains or pinch collars as Lou's own web site that advocates for them. 

If the whole argument is that they are "safe as long as you read Lou's web site," then that can be said about any training device. They are all safe, as long as the user takes the time to become educated about the use and has the mindset that they don't want to hurt their dog. The fact of the matter is that people buy shock collars and use them without reading any of the instructions because they're lazy and are looking for the quickest way to get compliance -- not the most effective, safe or humane way. 

How many times have you seen someone walking their dog on a choke chain that was put on improperly so that it won't release? Or seen a dog pulling "like a sled dog on crack" with a pinch collar? 

The bottom line fact is that it is much more difficult to inflict pain to a dog using a standard buckle or martingale collar -- even with an ignorant, uneducated user -- than it is with a shock collar. (Lou also makes the assumption that everyone is out buying the newest, top-of-the-line models, when there are a lot of these things floating around on the secondary market -- and, yes, they can burn holes in a dog's neck.)

I wholeheartedly agree that the goal is to have pet owners educated in training their dogs. Too many of them, however, don't use these devices as training aids, they use them as crutches and a replacement for training.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FImbedded collars can be surgically removed and the dog can heal from it.


They can also kill through suffocation or infection. Dogs don't heal from that. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F If you read earlier ... I don't condone choke chains or pinch collars, either. I don't believe in the "no pain, no gain" theory of dog training.


There's nothing that says that either tool must cause pain for training to occur. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I've never had to go there with any of my dogs. Just as Lou continues to advocate FOR shock collars, I will continue to advocate AGAINST them.


That's fine but I'd ask you to be honest in this. Many people, not saying that you've done this, are not capable of it. If you don't want to use Ecollars, that's fine with me. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FThe fact of the matter is that people buy shock collars and use them without reading any of the instructions because they're lazy and are looking for the quickest way to get compliance -- not the most effective, safe or humane way.


The same thing can be said of ANY training tool, including treats, clickers and any other of the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F How many times have you seen someone walking their dog on a choke chain that was put on improperly so that it won't release? Or seen a dog pulling "like a sled dog on crack" with a pinch collar?


I'm sorry but I don't see what this has to do with this topic. But since you asked: how many times have we seen grossly overweight dogs because they've been trained with treats and the owner has not cut back on the dog's food to compensate for it? 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F The bottom line fact is that it is much more difficult to inflict pain to a dog using a standard buckle or martingale collar -- even with an ignorant, uneducated user -- than it is with a shock collar.


I disagree. With either of those collars anytime the dog pulls against it ALL the pressure is put against the front of the dog's throat where all the delicate structures in the neck reside. A dog hitting the end of the leash can damage himself. No Ecollar can cause any physical injury except the minor sores that have already been discussed. 

As far as inflicting pain, no intelligent reasonable dog owner wants to do that. and it's easy not to, don't turn it up to that level. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F (Lou also makes the assumption that everyone is out buying the newest, top-of-the-line models, when there are a lot of these things floating around on the secondary market -- and, yes, they can burn holes in a dog's neck.)


I'm sorry but this is not true. NO ECOLLAR BEING MADE TODAY CAN CAUSE BURNS. If you disagree, show us some proof. Cheap collars become unreliable, that means they don't always give a stim when the button is pressed; but none of them can cause burns. Please stop telling this lie. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I wholeheartedly agree that the goal is to have pet owners educated in training their dogs. Too many of them, however, don't use these devices as training aids, they use them as crutches and a replacement for training.


Many people NEVER get to the "trained level" with their tool of choice. How often do we see people who must have their clicker in-hand for their dog to obey? How many MUST have a treat or Fluffy just won't sit? How many can't recall their dog unless they have their toy in their hand and are waving it like mad? 

Pretending that the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" are exempt from these problems is disingenuous at best.


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## towtrip

http://members.aol.com/ukaim/frame.htm?rufus.htm 

http://fpnews.blogspot.com/2007/08/shock-collars-used-at-boarding-kennels.html 

http://www.helpinganimals.com/animalsHome_dogs_shock.asp 

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=1236&d=pg_dtl_art_news&h=242&f=0 

http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RUFUS.HTM 

http://www.friendsofanimals.org/actionline/Fall-2007/good_intentions.php 

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmselect/cmenvfru/52/4090803.htm


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## jarn

i'm using mine on my bad knee. i figured, i pay $$$$ to get that done at physio. 

(it got raised as a joke, but it's a great idea, so i've gone with it)

edit: besides, teagan's just wearing the collar now, we're not using it on her yet.


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## LouCastle

Susan posted a buncha links. I guess these are to refute my claim that no Ecollar can cause burns. But let's look at them. 

Susan gave this link


> Quote: http://members.aol.com/ukaim/frame.htm?rufus.htm


The site that Susan sends us to is anti-Ecollar. This one is not about the Ecollar, it's about the Invisible Fence. It's a completely different tool than the Ecollar. 

Since the vet wrote the letter that's cited in the link she's changed her mind that these were electrical burns. She now believes, as was certainly the case, that they're chemical burns, caused by leaking batteries that got wet. I've spoken to her and that's how I know this. 

The owner did not heed the instructions that told him not to allow the collar to get wet, precisely for this reason. He left the dog out, it rained and the batteries leaked. 

Susan gave this link


> Quote: http://fpnews.blogspot.com/2007/08/shock-collars-used-at-boarding-kennels.html


This is another anti Ecollar site, this time a blog. This blog links to the original news article. Again, this is NOT about an Ecollar. It's about a bark collar, a device that stops dogs from barking by giving them a stim when they do. 

Notice that there is no _evidence _that the injuries are burns. It's just the _opinion _of the dog's owner, hardly real proof. As has been said, the only injury that can occur from an Ecollar is sores from friction or from moist eczema. The first is where the contact points rub against the skin. Moist eczema occurs when the circulation under the contact point compromise the circulation because they're on too right or left in one place too long. The same thing can happen to a human, for example from a rubber band around the wrist. 

But most telling is a comment FROM A VET WHO EXAMINED THE DOG. He writes


> Quote: I independently examined the dog in question. The spots on the dogs neck were similar to hot spots caused by the collar rubbing, much like a shoe might rub a raw spot on your foot.


 I guess Susan missed that comment. 

Susan gave this link


> Quote: http://www.helpinganimals.com/animalsHome_dogs_shock.asp


This link is to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. They say this


> Quote: Electronic training devices such as electronic fences and anti-barking collars rely on painful punishment and negative reinforcement, *causing dogs to live in fear of being electrocuted * for normal behaviors like crossing invisible lines, barking, and jumping onto surfaces within their own homes. Earlier I wrote, Their very language gives them away. "Electrocution" means to kill by electricity and no do has EVER been killed by ANY Ecollar, even the older ones that had much higher levels of stim. AGAIN there's no evidence here, just more opinion.
> 
> Susan gave this link
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/cgi-bin/item.cgi?id=1236&d=pg_dtl_art_news&h=242&f=0
> 
> 
> 
> This link to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. This time it's the KC (The Kennel Club) in the UK. This is an organization of behaviorists who stand to suffer fiscal loss from Ecollars. Their members long ago took a stand against Ecollars because they allow for dogs to be trained by owners without consulting their members. Just recently they tried to ban Ecollars in the UK. They were unsuccessful at this. The site says,
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Shock collars work by emitting painful shocks to the dog,
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> showing that they don't know about modern use of modern versions of the tool. AGAIN there is nothing there but opinion. Not one bit of scientific evidence to support that Ecollars can cause a burn.
> 
> Susan gave this link
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/RUFUS.HTM
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is nothing but a different link to the same incident as the first link that Susan supplies. Perhaps she missed this.
> 
> Susan gave this link
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: http://www.friendsofanimals.org/actionline/Fall-2007/good_intentions.php
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This link is to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. This site starts out by discussing an incident of child abuse where the parents put an Ecollar on their daughter. This is an obviously emotional appeal that has nothing to do with training dogs with an Ecollar. But let's overlook that .
> 
> Interestingly this page directly attacks the claims made of burns in the Rufus links wherein it says,
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: May 21, 2002, an eight-month old yellow Lab named Rufus suffered first, second and third degree *chemical burns * (LC: not electrical burns) because a collar went haywire on a rainy day. (Emphasis added)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AGAIN there's absolutely no reference to burns beyond someone's opinion.
> 
> Susan gave this link
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa.../52/4090803.htm
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This link is to yet ANOTHER anti-Ecollar site. Is anyone noticing a trend here? ROFL. It says on this site,
> 
> 
> 
> Quote: Many owners report ulcerations after using a shock collar. Studies suggest that this is * more likely to be a result of physical contact from the prongs on the collar, rather than electrical burns. * (Emphasis added)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's clear that these folks, even as anti-Ecollar as they are, admit that an Ecollar can't cause burns.
> 
> One link that Susan DID NOT POST http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/federal_ct/2002/860.html is to the transcript of a lawsuit brought against the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals) in Australia, by Innotek, a manufacturer of Ecollars and similar devices. The RSPCA had made many false claims, including the "burn statement" about their Ecollars. It turned out that the RSPCA has FALSIFIED EVIDENCE in their efforts to get Ecollars banned in Oz. They had supplied photos of supposed "burn marks" on the arm of one of their officers, supposedly cause by a bark collar. But the burn marks WERE NOT BURNS. As someone keeps saying, it's impossible for an Ecollar to burn anyone or anything.
> 
> This is something that's extremely easy to prove if it were true. EVERY DOG that ever wore an Ecollar would carry burns and any vet that examined them could show such damage. But there's absolutely no evidence of this. It's a myth spread by those who want to scare people away from using Ecollars.
Click to expand...


----------



## towtrip

Of course they're from ANTI-shock collar sites. PRO-shock collar sites, like loucastle.com, don't mention any of the downside risks of using the devices, or even have a single mention of any alternative training techniques. 

The PRO-shock collar sites advocate using shock collars as the one and only, be all and end all, for training all dogs at all times. 

I don't use the devices. I never will. They are banned in all of our foster homes and their use is a breach of our adoption agreement. 

Lou can profit off their sale, and convince as many people as he can that these devices are safe, but I have seen the consequences and choose not to torture my dogs with them.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Ack--would you all STOP IT already with the e-collar fights! There have been tons of e-collar discussions lately. Why don't you continue it over there! This thread was on fear aggression and not e-collars! 

I am glad that Onyx is making progress--that is super news! Basu was fear aggressive and it was a long road with lots of training but he came around really well. I think you'll have to start a new thread but I'll hope you'll keep updating us on her progress!


----------



## onyx'girl

This thread isn't about just Onyx, but _fear aggression_ and what works to help dogs overcome or manage it. There are opinions that the E-collars work, I will try other techniques before this. So if e-collars work for some, then it is relevant to the topic. More helpful testimonies are welcome!








But maybe an E-collar thread debate should begin?


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FOf course they're from ANTI-shock collar sites.


Many of those folks stand to benefit monetarily from people who turn away from Ecollars. They have an agenda based on their wallets not reality, honesty, or fairness. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F PRO-shock collar sites, like loucastle.com, don't mention any of the downside risks of using the devices


You're wrong. I do mention the down side of Ecollars. http://loucastle.com/myth.htm Myth #23 addresses it specifically, and the rest of the page discusses the myths that you've brought up and many more. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F or even have a single mention of any alternative training techniques.


Why would I have "alternative training techniques" on my website? It's about Ecollars, not clickers or pinch collars. This is like suggesting that Ford advertise Chevy on their site. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F The PRO-shock collar sites advocate using shock collars as the one and only, be all and end all, for training all dogs at all times.


I think that's the way it is. I've come across MANY dogs that didn't respond to the so-called "kinder, gentler methods." I've never come across a dog that didn't respond or couldn't be trained with an Ecollar. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I don't use the devices. I never will. They are banned in all of our foster homes and their use is a breach of our adoption agreement.


OK. But again, this has nothing to do with the topic of this discussion. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F Lou can profit off their sale


Actually I lose money on Ecollars. But nice try. LOL. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F and convince as many people as he can that these devices are safe, but I have seen the consequences and choose not to torture my dogs with them.


Now you're just being absurd. If someone wants to _torture _a dog they don't need to spend hundreds of dollars buying an Ecollar to do so. Not when sticks, cigarettes, boots and rocks are easily available. Care to take a trip down reality lane? Call your local shelter and ask how many case of abuse they've seen with Ecollars. Then ask how many they've seen with the objects that I mentioned. 

Perhaps as you know of Ecollar use, you consider it "torture," but as I advocate and use the tool it causes slight discomfort, about the same amount of discomfort as a single flea bite. Calling this "torture" is nothing but emotional nonsense. 

Any ill consequences you've seen have been from abuse, or misuse. That can occur with ANY tool or ANY method. 

I notice that you've finally given up on the claim of electrical burns. I guess the COMPLETE lack of evidence was compelling.


----------



## DianaM

> Quote:Ack--would you all STOP IT already with the e-collar fights!


Agreed. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to train a dog. Susan, just because you've never had to use anything physical on your dogs doesn't mean that EVERY dog can be trained without physical coercion. Some dogs are harder and possess higher thresholds than others. This has been beaten to the ground and after much though myself, I see aversion training has its place but I still firmly believe in building a positive, motivational foundation first and foremost, but everyone trains differently and each dog is different and each situation is different. It's good to post the positives and negatives of all types of training and even passionately disagree so anyone reading can take into account that there are controversies which demand further research and careful approach. What is not good is continuously turning every single e-collar thread into a bashfest against a very useful tool that should not be used by everyone.


----------



## BowWowMeow

There have been several e-collar debates on here recently. This thread is not the place for them! I think everyone is intelligent enough to realize that ecollars work well for some situations and not well for others and some people choose to use them (hopefully with appropriate training and guidance) and others choose not to (like me!) *WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!* You are cluttering up this thread with stuff that has been hashed out over and over elsewhere on this board. 

FOR FEAR AGGRESSION:

I used counter-conditioning and positive reinforcement with Basu. He was fear aggressive with people and not dogs. I built his confidence in himself through standard obedience training and built his confidence in me through more obedience training. Initially I used really high value treats (and it's remarkable that my fingers still work after the way he chomped on them!) in any situation that was difficult for him. The three most valuable commands I taught him were a place command (Bed!, a focus command and a stay command. Those combined worked to get us through many parties here at the house and many social situations outside of the house. He still reacted to people by barking but knew that he needed to lie on his bed and behave (e.g. not snap at people!) and he would be rewarded.


----------



## towtrip

> Quote: I notice that you've finally given up on the claim of electrical burns. I guess the COMPLETE lack of evidence was compelling.


NO ... just an acknowlegement that I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. 

MODS -- please remove the e-collar discussion on this thread. As others have said, it's really drifted away from providing anything useful for Onyx's fear aggression issue. Thanks!


----------



## towtrip

> Originally Posted By: DianaM
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:Ack--would you all STOP IT already with the e-collar fights!
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed. There are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to train a dog. Susan, just because you've never had to use anything physical on your dogs doesn't mean that EVERY dog can be trained without physical coercion. Some dogs are harder and possess higher thresholds than others. This has been beaten to the ground and after much though myself, I see aversion training has its place but I still firmly believe in building a positive, motivational foundation first and foremost, but everyone trains differently and each dog is different and each situation is different. It's good to post the positives and negatives of all types of training and even passionately disagree so anyone reading can take into account that there are controversies which demand further research and careful approach. What is not good is continuously turning every single e-collar thread into a bashfest against a very useful tool that should not be used by everyone.
Click to expand...

And I respectfully and wholeheartedly disagree. With as many dogs as have come through our program with as many issues as we've seen, we have NEVER had to resort to shocking any of them for behavioral compliance. Not one. Ever.


----------



## Brightelf

How is Onyx doing? Do you have any updates or reports on her? I am really interested to hear how she is doing, how you are coping. I am wishing you the best in rehabilitating and training success with Onyx!


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## onyx'girl

Onyx has been doing the same, I have been treating her(kibble) and we have gone for a couple of walks with the gentle leader on. She gets excited when we walk, struggling with keeping herself slow and calm. But is very easy to handle on the GL. There are many dogs we have to walk by(back yard yappers) and she was fine, a bit of froth on her mouth, though. My dogs know where the dogs live and anticipate them. One dog was loose, with owner near and Onyx did jump around a bit. 
The other thing that has been happening recently:
Onyx keeps going after my almost 14 yr.(3/17) mix. She does this mostly at feeding time(all raw fed, Kacie & Onyx outside, Clover inside) after they have eaten/up to an hour or when I am in the kitchen making dinner, and Onyx knows that she gets crated when this happens. So now she will after Clover then right to her crate. Wed. night, she started and they both were going at it, Clover gives it right back. I separated Onyx, grabbing her back legs and Clover was ok, but Onyx had a hold of her( I am now redirecting her and focus on me when this happens, taking her by the muzzle and make her look at me. 
The crate time-out didn't seem to get it. I think that Onyx knows Clover is starting to fail...
I haven't taken her out by car as we have been busy this week, so maybe tomorrow I'll take her somewhere. Her breeder will be in town, so hopefully if time permits she will stop by, interesting to see how Onyx does when she comes over.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Do you have Onyx muzzle trained? Could you have her wear a muzzle when she is around Clover so that the fights can't start?


----------



## onyx'girl

Yes, she has worn a muzzle, I have the nylon one, not the basket. I will get a basket if needed, but I want to try to work her thru this. It is mostly noise and I am watching her carefully. Like I said it is only around the meal times that this happens. I will muzzle her if I can't stop this behavior over the weekend


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowThere have been several e-collar debates on here recently. This thread is not the place for them!


It seems to me that this thread is just as much a good place for this debate as it is for a debate about any other method/tool that might be used for this problem. 



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowI think everyone is intelligent enough to realize that ecollars work well for some situations and not well for others


Ecollars are good for everything involving OB. They're not very good for training circus tricks. They're also very good for stopping undesired instinctual behavior such as chasing game or in this case, fear aggression. 



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow WE GET IT ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!


Some do and some don't. 



> Originally Posted By: BowWowMeowFOR FEAR AGGRESSION:
> 
> I used counter-conditioning and positive reinforcement with Basu. He was fear aggressive with people and not dogs. I built his confidence in himself through standard obedience training and built his confidence in me through more obedience training. Initially I used really high value treats (and it's remarkable that my fingers still work after the way he chomped on them!) in any situation that was difficult for him. The three most valuable commands I taught him were a place command (Bed!, a focus command and a stay command. Those combined worked to get us through many parties here at the house and many social situations outside of the house. He still reacted to people by barking but knew that he needed to lie on his bed and behave (e.g. not snap at people!) and he would be rewarded.


That's great. Onyx has tried several of these methods. They haven't worked.


----------



## LouCastle

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote: I notice that you've finally given up on the claim of electrical burns. I guess the COMPLETE lack of evidence was compelling.





> Originally Posted By: Susan FNO ... just an acknowlegement that I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.


I don't need to change my mind. There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence to support your claim that Ecollars cause burns. NONE, ZIP, NADA. If it was true it would be easy to provide scientific evidence, note that I didn't say unsubstantiated opinions, to support it. but you've not provided a single bit. That's because it doesn’t exist. There's ONLY unsubstantiated urban rumors and opinions. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FMODS -- please remove the e-collar discussion on this thread.


I hope they leave it. It pounds many of the myths you're posted as fact. AND it is completely pertinent to this discussion. But I understand. If I had gotten spanked as thoroughly as some have been, I'd want it taken off too. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FAs others have said, it's really drifted away from providing anything useful for Onyx's fear aggression issue. Thanks!


The Ecollar is directly pertinent to this discussion. You folks took it off topic with silly emotional discussions in the hopes of scaring people away from them. 

I've provided quite a bit of evidence to support the use of Ecollars for this specific problem.


----------



## onyx'girl

Lou, I just started working on this with Onyx as of last weekend. I am not going E-collar just yet. If you re-read my posts you will see this has been a two week thread, because of experience with a vet visit. Not quite enough time to get Onyx fear aggression managed.


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan F With as many dogs as have come through our program with as many issues as we've seen, we have NEVER had to resort to shocking any of them for behavioral compliance. Not one. Ever.


If all I did was to "shock dogs for behavioral compliance" I'd understand that people were against Ecollars. But that's not what's done. Why is it that you can't understand this? Why is it that your mind is so closed to learning something new?


----------



## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girlLou, I just started working on this with Onyx as of last weekend. I am not going E-collar just yet. If you re-read my posts you will see this has been a two week thread, because of experience with a vet visit. Not quite enough time to get Onyx fear aggression managed.


Probably not enough time with other methods. But if you'd read "Simon's Story." http://loucastle.com/simon.htm you'd know that Simon made obvious, demonstrable progress in *two days. * 

Here's a link to two dogs playing. One of them used to be aggressive towards the other and all dogs as well. Can you tell which one was the aggressive one? No one has been able to. He was rehabilitated with the Ecollar, using my protocol. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qmMAFKBuKg Sorry there's no sound with it.


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## onyx'girl

All dogs have different stories. I am glad Simon was able to overcome his problems.


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## towtrip

Lou,

I have not been "spanked," nor converted to an e-collar enthusiast or supporter. As for your comment that there is "no evidence" that shock collars can burn, my evidence was with my own eyes. 

I don't understand why you can't make your points without personal insults, derogatory comments and self-aggrandizing referrals to your own web site. 

As for "trying something new," have you EVER tried clicker training under the guidance of an experienced instructor? Why are you so closed to that? 

If your statements are true, then all of Patricia McConnell's, Trish King's, Karen Pryor's, Ian Dunbar's, Suzanne Clothier's and Pat Miller's dogs would be fat, unruly heathens, yet they have more credentials, credibility and success than any shock collar fan I've ever seen. 

I've never pulled a dog from a shelter that has "clicker trauma," but I have had experience with dogs traumatized by shock collars. THAT's my experience and my reality. I've also never put a dog on a shock collar for any reason, but my dogs haven't ended up fat and I've had success with their training.

As for the topic at hand, aggression begets aggression. If a dog is already tending toward fear aggression, giving him more cause to be fearful by using aggressive methodologies will reinforce the fear and the response. IMHO. 

You disagree. That's your right, but it is also my right to know what I've seen, what I've experienced and what I believe.


----------



## towtrip

> Originally Posted By: LouCastleEcollars are good for everything involving OB


If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FAs for your comment that there is "no evidence" that shock collars can burn, my evidence was with my own eyes.


Are you a medical doctor? A researcher who works on human skin? Some other sort of specialist who can tell the difference between a burn from friction and one from electiricty? Do you have some education that enables you to tell the difference between a burn and moist eczema? I ask because even medical doctors can have trouble with this. AND I know that no Ecollar puts out enough current to cause burns. 

Did you perform tests to determine that this was a burn or did you simply assume that they were? 

In the absence of any of this supporting material and knowing that no Ecollar puts out enough current to cause a burn, I'll have to say that you're wrong. This isn't a matter of your opinion v. mine, it's a matter of science and physics. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I don't understand why you can't make your points without personal insults, derogatory comments


The first insults and derogatory comments were yours. Then you added to it by calling me a liar (indirectly) by saying that you'd seen burns from an Ecollar after I said that it's physically impossible for it to have occurred. Your agenda is obvious, to stop people from using Ecollars by scaring them by spreading myths, misconceptions and outright lies as if they were true. 



> Originally Posted By: Mynona;205299 and self-aggrandizing referrals to your own web site.


And yet another insult. This is what the anti-Ecollar people always do. They start these kinds of arguments, then go to personal attacks in the hopes that moderators will close down the conversation and stop the flow of information and truth about Ecollars. That may happen, but another one will soon spring up. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F As for "trying something new," have you EVER tried clicker training under the guidance of an experienced instructor? Why are you so closed to that?


Now you've made an assumption that turns out to be wrong. *I've used clickers and I still use the method (not the tool the, I don't care for it) when it's appropriate. * You've made the faulty assumption that I only use an Ecollar, one that's fairly common among anti-Ecollar folks. The difference between us is that you want people to think that the so-called "kinder, gentler methods" ALWAYS are appropriate and that's simply NOT true. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F If your statements are true, then all of Patricia McConnell's, Trish King's, Karen Pryor's, Ian Dunbar's, Suzanne Clothier's and Pat Miller's dogs would be fat, unruly heathens, yet they have more credentials, credibility and success than any shock collar fan I've ever seen.


I'd suggest that you try to read what _I actually said _instead of what _it seems you wish I'd said. _I was quite clear. Here it is again,


> Quote: But since you asked: how many times have we seen grossly overweight dogs because they've been trained with treats and the owner has not cut back on the dog's food to compensate for it?


 I NEVER said that it occurred all the time. I was quite clear that it only happens when the owners don't "compensate" for it. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F I've never pulled a dog from a shelter that has "clicker trauma," but I have had experience with dogs traumatized by shock collars.


And this has to do with the topic in what way? Dogs can be traumatized with any tool, including the clicker. I saw a woman lose her temper, because she had gotten frustrated with the failure of her attempts to use the clicker, and throw the clicker, striking the dog in the head with it. It's only by luck that the dog wasn't injured. But I'd never cite that as why a clicker should not be used. That would be stupid. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F THAT's my experience and my reality. I've also never put a dog on a shock collar for any reason, but my dogs haven't ended up fat and I've had success with their training.


Nice try Susan. But it's clear that you've decided to try and twist what I wrote. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F As for the topic at hand, aggression begets aggression. If a dog is already tending toward fear aggression, giving him more cause to be fearful by using aggressive methodologies will reinforce the fear and the response. IMHO.


I agree that might be a result. And so my protocol http://loucastle.com/critter.htm doesn’t use the Ecollar to stop the aggression. Instead it's a form of behavior modification. Neither the fear nor the response is reinforced. But this is the EXACT SORT OF COMMENT I'd expect from someone with a closed mind who thinks she know how I use an Ecollar. Even a quick read of that protocol will show you how wrong you are. But I doubt that you'll bother. You have you mind made up and don't want to be confused by the facts. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F You disagree.


It's not just that I disagree. It's that you're wrong about the burns. It's simply impossible. No Ecollar puts out enough current to cause burns. This is a lie told by anti-Ecollar people to scare people away from them. There is ABSOLUTELY no scientific evidence to support your claim. It would be easy to show, yet no one has done so. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan F That's your right, but it is also my right to know what I've seen


You have not seen burns. You may think that you have. But the laws of physics say that you're wrong.


----------



## LouCastle

Earlier I wrote,


> Quote:Ecollars are good for everything involving OB





> Originally Posted By: Susan FIf your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


Looks like that assumption you made, that I can only use an Ecollar has come home to bite you.


----------



## WiscTiger

OK Susan I think we all understand that you hate eCollars, that is your choice. 

Let's all agree that any training tool can be misused or abused. You can take a flat collar and choke a dog, should we never use flat collars?

Susan and Lou if you would like to email or PM each other to continue this back and forth, please do so.

Now let's move back to the Original Topic "Can fear aggression be overcome".

Wisc.Tiger - Admin.


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## bearlasmom

> Originally Posted By: Susan FWhen someone will strap a shock collar on their child and give me the controller, THEN I will believe them that "they don't really hurt."
> 
> Until then, there is no shock collars (or pinch or choke collars, either) in my house.


Sue i have to agree with you here. i did try the ecollar at a level set for what would be used on Bearla and it hurt!
i guess love, understanding and patience works better anyway as does desentsitizing the dog. I had been using all types of methods with Bearla and the one that seems to be working best is desensitizing Bearla by taking her in to see the vet for a weigh in ever couple of days plus the amichen bonding used by jan fennel. 

between the two, we finnaly were able to walk into the vet yesterday for her weigh in and check up and NOT HAVE A SCENE. Bearla got out of the car and dug her feet in at first but i offered her a peice of jerky and told her if she was good there would be more. We went in and at first i had wanted to turn around because there were 4 dogs in there. Bearla began to pick up on my stress and started to growl so i forced myself to calm down and walked in but straight toward the toys and treats that are hanging on the walls that are for sale.

We looked them over and i kept talking too her. i noticed that her hackles were coming down. The girls that work there started talking to her from a distance and then the one, Cathy, came over offering her a treat and a yellow duck. Bearla stood WAGGING HER TAIL AND OFFERED HER PAW. She then sat BESIDE me, and stared at the other dogs. One was a GSD and you could see that she wanted to check it out. The owner was standing off to the side with it because apparently he was experiencing the same type of issue. if his dog got too close to other NON GSD it became extremely upset. Bearla wanted to go and check him out so i asked if it was okay to try to get them closer together. The big male looked her over and stood up stretching his neck out trying to sniff. When we seen both dogs tails wagging we thought it would be okay to get a bit closer. Within 5 min the two dogs were sniffing each others noses and making tentive little licks toward each other. They relaxed and actually sat there looking at the other dogs. The receptionist started laughing because she thought the look on thier faces was 'OK, We are royal, We Rule" You are all measly mutts." When it was time for Bearla to go it, she walked by the other dogs with her hackles up and giving a low growl but i would pull her head back up and tell her NO. The vet examined her with NO GROWLING. it was awesome. I loved it. The vet told me it could be because i have been doing so much work with her at home due to my health and the weather instead of going to the behaviorist.


----------



## bearlasmom

> Originally Posted By: LouCastle
> 
> 
> Susan F said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Susan F said:
> 
> 
> 
> Your agenda is obvious, to stop people from using Ecollars by scaring them by spreading myths, misconceptions and outright lies as if they were true.
> You have not seen burns. You may think that you have. But the laws of physics say that you're wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Lou i hate to argue the NOT SEEING BURNS BUT, as a agent in the courts, i see dogs brought in by the shelters during a hearing who's necks are burnt as a result of their owners trying to teach the dogs not to be aggressive, or to not bark, pee in the house etc. its sad but true. the do burn at times. Alot of it unfortuantely depends on the dogs i guess (thier skin sensitivity or how offten they are shocked). Other behavorists have stated at times in news paper articles, books etc that ecollars have been known to ruin the relationship between a dog and its owner. the dog learns to distruss them.
> 
> Bearla was about the worst that i have ever seen with fear aggression and she is turning around through desensitization and frequent trips to vets and play dates with other dogs.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## whitefurmom

Congratulations to Onxy's Mom for choosing a kinder gentler approach! It sounds as though you are making progress.

As a professional clicker trainer, I agree that fear agression is a management issue. I have worked with several dogs with fear aggression that have turned out to be wonderful dogs. It would be unfair to say that they all make it, some don't. That is just the reality. Any trainer that claims otherwise is dishonest at best and diluted and dangerous at worst. Dogs are fluid, no one can claim 100% efficacy with any degree of honesty.

Using correction based training practices on a dog that is already fearful CAN (not always) reinforce the fear even more strongly. For me, it comes down to respecting your dog and following your "gut". I would NEVER do anything to a dog that I would not do to someone that I love. Therefore, to use punishmnets that could harm them to me is repulsive. I certainly would be very upset if someone used those practices on my child.

Clicker training does often take a bit more time, this is true. However, you are building a strong bond between you and your dog, and one that is based on trust and "good things happening". I will gladly take the extra time to build a strong positive relationship wth an important member of my household. When my dogs comply with my wishes, it is because they do it from a place of love and not from fear of retribution. My dogs LOVE to train, it is the highlight of their day.

Having used correction based training in the past, before I was introduced to clicker training, I know first hand the difference in my dogs. My Wolf, who used to dread training, now loves it! He came to me so fearful that he didn't even want human contact. He now has his CGC and TDI. He was trained both ways, again, the difference in the results between the two methods was profound.

It sounds as though you have found a good, positive trainer for Onyx, and I wish you both a long, happy, loving relationship!


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## Timber1

Wow, 

after reading the back and forth between Mr. Castle and Susan I hope to relay a few comments that are more gemain to your original post. 

Susan mentioned a post I made regarding Timber 1, a GSD that after surgery had absolutely no time for the vet. The vet's answer was be tough with the dog, although he never suggested an E-Collar. It was more along the lines that I should pin him down, make him know I am the alpha guy, etc. Literally without exception the folks on this board disagreed so I followed their advice. We visited the vet's office at least a dozen times for no reason other then to re-establigh the bond between Timber and my vet. I was thinking the E-Collar would have been a quicker fix, just a few jolts and prblem solved. However, the fear an E-Collar causes would not have improved the respect and feelings Timber, my vet and I have for each other.

I firmly believe the E-Collar does instll a different type of fear in a dog then other training methods, such as the use of a pronged collar.

You mentioned your dog being fearful and aggressive at training sessions. I have a fourteen month old rescue who has been out to meet a few potential adoptees. Sheba, my rescue and the dogs she meets are always seemingly aggressive toward each. 

When Sheba was dropped off at my house three weeks ago, her and my dog Timber acted like they wanted to kill each other. I put them in seperate rooms, and they will still growl, fur up and teeth exposed when they even looked at each other. However, a few days later they became best of friends. 

If you have the chance let you dog interract with a friend's dog for a few days, and I think you will be suprised at how well they play together. I guess you can tell I am not a big fan of formal classes unless it is SCH training.

I am personally not an E-Collar fan and would not use it on my dogs. However, I do think there are some instances in which an E-Collar should be used. Perhaps some of the articles Lou attached are specific about that issue. Nonetheless, in all the replies he provided he never specifically commented on specifically how the E-Collar should be used, and in what situations. 

I will add that in my opinion the use of an E-Collar should be extremely rare.

My biggest problem in advocating the use of an E-Collar is it appears to be a quick for any problem a dog has. The dog won't obey, a few jolts of electricity and problem solved. Unfortunately, it is exremely harmful to the dog's mental state, and your future relationship with your pet.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FWhen someone will strap a shock collar on their child and give me the controller, THEN I will believe them that "they don't really hurt."
> 
> Until then, there is no shock collars (or pinch or choke collars, either) in my house.





> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomSue i have to agree with you here. i did try the ecollar at a level set for what would be used on Bearla and it hurt!


This has no meaning in the real world but it's a typical comment from those who know little about the modern use of Ecollars. 

What does it mean to say "a level set for what would be used on Bearla?" Is that the level at which she'd first feel it? Does that mean a level that your trainer would use? Is that something else entirely? 

In any case the level at which you first feel the stim has nothing to do with the level at which your dog first feels the stim. All of my basic work is done at the level the dog first feels the stim. The difference between what you feel and what the dog feels has to do with skin conductivity and nerve sensitivity and there's no correlation between those things for a dog and for a human. I've had dogs that worked on a 4 (out of 127 levels) and have never found a human who could feel that. And I had one human who didn't feel the highest level that the Ecollar had. 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomi guess love, understanding and patience works better anyway as does desentsitizing the dog.


Desensitizing is a good method but it takes time and one bad incident can set you back or even destroy all that's been done. 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomI had been using all types of methods with Bearla


What other methods have you been using? 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomBearla began to pick up on my stress and started to growl so i forced myself to calm down and walked in but straight toward the toys and treats that are hanging on the walls that are for sale.


Dogs often respond to our state of mind.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomLou i hate to argue the NOT SEEING BURNS BUT, as a agent in the courts, i see dogs brought in by the shelters during a hearing who's necks are burnt as a result of their owners trying to teach the dogs not to be aggressive, or to not bark, pee in the house etc. its sad but true. the do burn at times.


The same questions that I asked of Susan apply to you. Are you a medical doctor? A researcher who works on human skin? Some other sort of specialist who can tell the difference between a burn from friction and one from electricity? Do you have some education that enables you to tell the difference between a burn and moist eczema? I ask because even medical doctors can have trouble with this. 

Ecollars don't put out enough current to cause burns. This is basic physics. At worst you may have seen the result of moist eczema. It looks like a burn but it has nothing to do with the electrical current that the Ecollar puts out. It's from the contact points cutting circulation to that directly under them, and so sores can result. This can occur with any type of collar but is more prevalent with Ecollars because of the direct pressure the contact points apply. 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomAlot of it unfortuantely depends on the dogs i guess (thier skin sensitivity or how offten they are shocked).


IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ELECTRICAL CURRENT THEY PUT OUT! That current is similar to the static electricity that you get from rubbing your feet across the carpet and then touching a door knob. At 20% humidity that static shock would produce a sensation that is more than nine times stronger than an Ecollar used as I use them. That static shock can be as high as 20,000 to 25,000 volts. Ecollars put out from 3 to 200 volts, with current measured in micro amps. That's not enough to cause burns. It's simply physically impossible. 

I have a dog here that developed sores from wearing the Ecollar without being stimmed. A local vet thought they were burns from the Ecollar. Yet the collar hadn't ever been turned on much less had her stimmed. When he was told this he changed his mind. Even medicals can be fooled. Turns out that she was allergic to the stainless steel us in the contact points. I replaced them with another type of metal and the sores disappeared. 

I've felt the highest level of stim that an Ecollar can put out for up to ten seconds (after that it "times out.") I've stimmed myself hundreds of times in the exact same spot at high levels. No burns or even redness resulted. And our skin is much more delicate than a dog's. 

This is a myth. 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmom Other behavorists have stated at times in news paper articles, books etc that ecollars have been known to ruin the relationship between a dog and its owner. the dog learns to distruss them.


That can happen when the Ecollar is used at high levels. It doesn’t happen when my methods are used. In my system the dog does not associate the stim with the handler. And of course there are many ways to get a dog to distrust you. One the best (as far as destroying trust) is using physical corrections at too high a level for the disobedience. It can also happen when a treat is offered to a dog with so-called "kinder, gentler methods" and then that treat is withheld. It takes many reps but it's not something that's limited to traditional methods that use corrections. 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmom Bearla was about the worst that i have ever seen with fear aggression and she is turning around through desensitization and frequent trips to vets and play dates with other dogs.


The worst I've ever seen was Roma. Http://loucastle.com/roma.htm and she sounds FAR WORSE than Bearla.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom As a professional clicker trainer, I agree that fear agression is a management issue.


I think that management is necessary until and unless it can be fixed. If it can be fixed then management is no longer necessary. 



> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom I have worked with several dogs with fear aggression that have turned out to be wonderful dogs. It would be unfair to say that they all make it, some don't.


That's probably true. But I've not had a failure since I've been using my protocol. 



> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom Using correction based training practices on a dog that is already fearful CAN (not always) reinforce the fear even more strongly.


I agree. That's why I don't use a "correction based method" with the Ecollar, or any other tool for that matter. 



> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom I would NEVER do anything to a dog that I would not do to someone that I love. Therefore, to use punishmnets that could harm them to me is repulsive.


I agree. That's one thing that's great about the Ecollar. It can't cause any harm. 



> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom I certainly would be very upset if someone used those practices on my child.


Conversations that compare children to dogs or dogs to any other animals are silly. We do things to our dogs that if we did them to our children would have us jailed for child abuse. 

And we do things with out children that if we did them with our dogs would have no effect on their behavior. 



> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom Clicker training does often take a bit more time, this is true. However, you are building a strong bond between you and your dog, and one that is based on trust and "good things happening". I will gladly take the extra time to build a strong positive relationship with an important member of my household.


Used as it's commonly done, Ecollars often cause problems with the relationship between dog and owner. But used as I do, it actually strengthens the bond between dog and owner. Often it can create one in a few minutes when there was only one of fear there before. This can be seen in my work with Roma. Before I started working with her she tried to bite me, an all out attack because she was afraid of a noise that she thought I'd made. But about 25 minutes later, after doing nothing but working the recall protocol, she climbed up into my lap and was licking my face. People who were watching (who BTW were hoping that I'd fail – they were against the use of the Ecollar) jokingly said that I had gone behind a car and switched dogs on them. 



> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom When my dogs comply with my wishes, it is because they do it from a place of love and not from fear of retribution.


There's an implied statement here that dogs trained with Ecollars don't come from a "place of love" and that they perform out of a "fear of retribution." Nothing could be further from the truth. 

Steven Lindsay, author of the three volume set, "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training." writes,


> Quote: Most scientific evidence supports the notion that the cessation of aversive ES in the context of escape/avoidance training is * more likely to enhance social attraction, promote feelings of safety, and calm a dog rather than make a dog afraid or apprehensive. * (Emphasis added)


And 



> Quote: Instead of instilling social aversion and anxiety … *competent electronic training may actually promote social attachment, reward, and safety, * With the behavior- contingent cessation or avoidance of ES, *dogs experience immediate emotional relieve that subsequently merges into a state of progressive relaxation incompatible with social aversion and fear … * (Emphasis added)





> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom My dogs LOVE to train, it is the highlight of their day.


Mine too! When they hear the tinkle that the roller buckle of the Ecollar strap makes, they come a runnin'. 



> Originally Posted By: whitefurmom Having used correction based training in the past, before I was introduced to clicker training, I know first hand the difference in my dogs.


Me too. But I haven't seen anyone advocating "correction based training" in this conversation. Can you steer me to such comments?


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Timber1 Susan mentioned a post I made regarding Timber 1, a GSD that after surgery had absolutely no time for the vet. The vet's answer was be tough with the dog, although he never suggested an E-Collar. It was more along the lines that I should pin him down, make him know I am the alpha guy, etc. Literally without exception the folks on this board disagreed so I followed their advice.


I'll refer you to an article I wrote a while back. http://loucastle.com/dominance.htm It talks about the alpha roll and that I don't think it's EVER a sound practice. Vet's are medical specialists. Absent some education in dog training outside their medical education, they know little about training a dog. But because they wear a white coat, lots of people think they must know about lots of things. Witness the white coats in ads on TV commercials. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 We visited the vet's office at least a dozen times for no reason other then to re-establigh the bond between Timber and my vet. I was thinking the E-Collar would have been a quicker fix, just a few jolts and prblem solved.


I'm not sure why you people keep making comments like this. I don't advocate a "few jolts" for ANYTHING, much less for fixing fear aggression. Can you tell us what this has to do with my protocol for fixing fear aggression? 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 However, the fear an E-Collar causes


An Ecollar used as I do and advocate does not cause fear. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 I firmly believe the E-Collar does instll a different type of fear in a dog then other training methods, such as the use of a pronged collar.


Please expand on this. But to be pertinent to what I'm advocating please read my articles on how I use the tool. It's different from how you know of its use. I'm not talking about any other way that the tool is used in this conversation. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 I am personally not an E-Collar fan and would not use it on my dogs.


Knowing what it seems that you know about them, I completely understand this feeling. But, again, I'd ask you to read a couple of my articles about their use. I'd guess that it's NOT what you are familiar with. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 However, I do think there are some instances in which an E-Collar should be used. Perhaps some of the articles Lou attached are specific about that issue. Nonetheless, in all the replies he provided he never specifically commented on specifically how the E-Collar should be used, and in what situations.


LOL. I’m limited to 1,000 words here. It's also the policy of this site not to quote articles from the Net at length, so I just supply the links to my articles. 

I advocate use of the Ecollar for fear based aggression, and for just about any kind of OB. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 I will add that in my opinion the use of an E-Collar should be extremely rare.


I’ll counter that used as you seem to know of their use I'd agree. But used as I do, I think that it's use should be extremely common. It's fast, it's safe, it's easy on both the dog and the handler and it's completely humane. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 My biggest problem in advocating the use of an E-Collar is it appears to be a quick for any problem a dog has.


I think you left out the word "fix" from this sentence. At least that's what I'll assume. A "quick fix" usually means something that's "quick" and "dirty," something that doesn't last. Something like putting duct tape on a leaking radiator hose to get the car home or to the garage. But an Ecollar is probably the most long lasting training of any kind of tool. Dogs that are snake proofed (taught to avoid poisonous snakes) often learn to stay away from them FOR LIFE, with only one stim. NOTHING ELSE that exists in the world of dog training tools can give that kind of result. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 The dog won't obey, a few jolts of electricity and problem solved.


There's that phrase again. It's not what I do. I wish that people would read an article when a link is posted so they'd know what I was talking about. But some won't bother, they'll assume they know what we're talking about. As can be seen, some don't. they think that what they've seen and heard about Ecollars is the only way they can be used. Sadly that often leads to long disagreements, until they finally realize that we're talking about two widely different things.


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## Timber1

[Comment Removed by Admin]

Prior to this post I had heard you were great with GSD's and someone that is worth listening to. 

I will not mention names, because I always get criticzed for quoting others advice and not providing my own. But suffice it to say even ------- ---- which trains more German Shepherds in the US would not be happy which seems to have developed into a personal issue with you and Wisc. Tiger.

Please read my prior post and a response would be appreciated.

Finally, I have not checked your board, but will. Right now I am busy trying to get another rescue into my home. And if that rescue, like so many is fearful, aggressive, the use of an E-Collar is out.

Finally, a personal thanks to the moderator of this board. E-Collars may have their place, but for many they are the quick, easy fix. So thanks for not closing and letting everyone express their opinions.


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## nitetrane98

"Sue i have to agree with you here. i did try the ecollar at a level set for what would be used on Bearla and it hurt!"

Geez!! That's bordering on non-sequitur! I would venture to say that the tug you used when passing the other dogs at the vets would likely hurt most humans.
Are you saying that you fitted Bearla with an ecollar and the method didn't work or just that you subjected yourself to the stim that you thought would be Bearla's level?

I thoroughly understand the emotion of people who have furkids. I'm glad your method worked. How long did it take? Do you trust her to do it every time?


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## LouCastle

[quote removed by Admin. because it was deleted from a post made by a member]
I'm not even sure that you're addressing this to me except that later you make an anti Ecollar statement and since I'm the main one writing on behalf of Ecollars, I'll guess that you are addressing me. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 Prior to this post I had heard you were great with GSD's and someone that is worth listening to.


Some think I am. Others not so much. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1But suffice it to say even ------- ---- which trains more German Shepherds in the US


"… trains more GSD'S in the US" … than who? And what has this to do with this discussion? 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 would not be happy which seems to have developed into a personal issue with you and Wisc. Tiger.


I have a personal issue with Wisc. Tiger? Not that I know of. 

Ya see this is where I'm confused. I only know Wisc. Tiger because he's (and even the gender is a guess based on some photos on his website) a moderator here and asked that Susan F and I stop debating in public. I'm pretty sure that we've never even exchanged emails. Do you mean someone else? 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 Please read my prior post and a response would be appreciated.


If you're talking to me, I did respond to you in my post # 615208


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## towtrip

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerSusan and Lou if you would like to email or PM each other to continue this back and forth, please do so.
> 
> Now let's move back to the Original Topic "Can fear aggression be overcome".
> 
> Wisc.Tiger - Admin.


Lou,

Does this comment mean NOTHING to you?


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.TigerSusan and Lou if you would like to email or PM each other to continue this back and forth, please do so.
> 
> Now let's move back to the Original Topic "Can fear aggression be overcome".
> 
> Wisc.Tiger - Admin.





> Originally Posted By: Susan FLou, Does this comment mean NOTHING to you?


Private response sent as a moderator has asked us not to continue this back and forth.


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## Castlemaid

My understanding on how the ecollar is used by Lou, and used to overcome fear agression, is that the collar is used to reward the dog for appropriate behaviour when faced with the object of its fears (like other dogs, for example). 

I think that most people are stuck in the mindset that the ecollar is used to correct or punish unwanted behaviour. I am sure that traditionally, this was the main use of the collar. The dog does something "wrong", something undesirable, and a correction is delivered via the ecollar. There are many problems withi this type of "training" ( I wounld't call it training myself, and do not see much use in this kind of usage.) For one, you have to wait for the dog to do something wrong, then "punish" him for it. The problem is that the dog has NO IDEA what is the right behaviour, that feedback is lacking. 

From what I understand from reading Lou's website, the correct way of using an ecollar is to allow the dog to figure out the right thing to do, and be rewarded for it. The dog is given the option of a number of behaviour choices, and when the right behaviour is offered, the stim stops. I understand that the stim is the lowest possible level that delivers no pain, but only a tickle. Pain would introduce stress and fear, which would be counter-productive to learning, and make some situations only worse, as in fear agression, for example. 

In the dog's mind, he has control over the stim. Do this, and it stops. Training is accelarated, because training is POSITIVE: the RIGHT behaviour is rewarded. This also allows clearer communication in complex situations. Instead of focusing on punishing for the wrong behaviour, the dog is being rewarded for the correct behaviour. In the example on Lou's website, the dog learned that ignoring other dogs and focusing on the handler in a calm manner was rewarding. The dog felt in control, he knew exactly what to do to get the wanted result. A sense of control replaced his fear. 

This is really a new way of looking at ecollar use and training. Very intriguing and insightful. I can see that many people would have a hard time letting go of their old training beliefs in order to understand the psychology behind continuous-stim training. 

Very interesting.


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## Timber1

Thanks,

this is getting out of hand. You have already deleted the first paragraph of one of my responses to Lou.

I did spent a bit of time on Lou's web site and was never more disappointed. Everyone should give it a read.

I would like to elaborate and say a few things about other controversial folks, like Ed Frawley at Leerburg, but I suspect any other comments would just result in another delete.

Finally, so no one mis reads. Ed has been great with my son and his dogs, opionated be very helpful. The last time I mentioned a name someone blasted me for criticizing and that is not the case regarding Leerburg.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidMy understanding on how the ecollar is used by Lou, and used to overcome fear agression, is that the collar is used to reward the dog for appropriate behaviour when faced with the object of its fears (like other dogs, for example).


You got it. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid I think that most people are stuck in the mindset that the ecollar is used to correct or punish unwanted behaviour. I am sure that traditionally, this was the main use of the collar. The dog does something "wrong", something undesirable, and a correction is delivered via the ecollar.


Ecollars were originally invented in the late 1960's to stop hunting dogs from chasing game, mainly deer. The technique was to wait until the dog was involved in the chase and then press the button. Those Ecollars had much higher levels than collars of today and they were not adjustable. They had only one button. Press it and the dog was stimmed. Release it and it stopped. The idea was to put the dog into avoidance; to make him afraid of chasing deer because of the pain that accompanied it. Keep in mind that those dogs were animals that had been bred for decades to hunt and so had very high levels of drives, especially prey drive. Lesser amounts of pain would not stop them from chasing. 

But today's collar are much different. The stim level can be adjusted from the transmitter and they can be adjusted so low that no dog (and no human) can feel the stim. That means that they can be slowly turned up until the animal just barely can perceive it. That's the level at which the basic work, including the work on fear-aggression, is done. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid For one, you have to wait for the dog to do something wrong, then "punish" him for it. The problem is that the dog has NO IDEA what is the right behaviour, that feedback is lacking.


Exactly right. With that method of using the Ecollar the dog had to make the right association. Some dogs didn't. Some dogs made the association of the pain with being away from the handler. Those dogs didn't want to leave the handler's side again. some dogs were able to just power through the pain. It was all but impossible to stop those dogs from chasing deer. 

But I advocate that you don't give the dog the opportunity to do the wrong thing. Instead, when the stim is introduced the dog is on leash so that he can be gently guided into the desired behavior. This means that there can't be any improper associations made. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid From what I understand from reading Lou's website, the correct way of using an ecollar is to allow the dog to figure out the right thing to do, and be rewarded for it. The dog is given the option of a number of behaviour choices, and when the right behaviour is offered, the stim stops.


Close. Usually the dog is guided into the right behavior, using the leash, hands or both. In the case of the protocol for crittering or dog-to-dog aggression, the dog is pulled backwards. The leash pulls him backwards as he faces the prey animal. Since no animal likes to walk backwards, they step on uncomfortable things and trip over things, in a couple of steps he turns his head to see where he's going. As soon as he does, the stim is removed, rewarding him for turning his head. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid I understand that the stim is the lowest possible level that delivers no pain, but only a tickle.


I don't use the word "tickle." The stim is meant to be uncomfortable and the word tickle may mislead someone into thinking that the stim is "fun." 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid Pain would introduce stress and fear, which would be counter-productive to learning, and make some situations only worse, as in fear agression, for example.


Yep. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid In the dog's mind, he has control over the stim. Do this, and it stops. Training is accelarated, because training is POSITIVE: the RIGHT behaviour is rewarded. This also allows clearer communication in complex situations. Instead of focusing on punishing for the wrong behaviour, the dog is being rewarded for the correct behaviour. In the example on Lou's website, the dog learned that ignoring other dogs and focusing on the handler in a calm manner was rewarding. The dog felt in control, he knew exactly what to do to get the wanted result. A sense of control replaced his fear.


Excellent interpretation of what I've written. 



> Originally Posted By: Castlemaid This is really a new way of looking at ecollar use and training. Very intriguing and insightful. I can see that many people would have a hard time letting go of their old training beliefs in order to understand the psychology behind continuous-stim training.


So folks don't think I'm claiming to be some kind of dog training genius, I'm not. LOL. I didn't invent this stuff. I stole it from several trainers who were doing it, tweeked it to suit me and the Average Pet Owner (whatever that means) and put it on my site so anyone can learn to do it.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Timber1 I did spent a bit of time on Lou's web site and was never more disappointed.


Can you be more specific? What disappointed you? I'm always looking to improve the protocols. 



> Originally Posted By: Timber1 Everyone should give it a read.


I wish everyone would.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> Originally Posted By: CastlemaidMy understanding on how the ecollar is used by Lou, and used to overcome fear agression, is that the collar is used to reward the dog for appropriate behaviour when faced with the object of its fears (like other dogs, for example).


I had Ilsa at the vet yesterday. I think we are going to go over a few times more before her surgery and have other people there handle her. I want her comfortable that those people can be her leaders, too. I also want her to see the kennels. I am hoping her across the way neighbor will be a calf (that happens there). 

ANYWAY! She has issues with other dogs. That is exactly what I did using praise and small treats. We played the look game where she looked at me (even as I moved around-so I got a little of her prey drive going directed at me and then she was actually having some fun), we did obedience and she got all sorts of positives straight from me, my body language, my hands, my words. 

Instead of focusing on the "evil" Golden (who got a cookie from me because she was so sweet) or that "monster" Boston Terrier (who was well aware that Ilsa thought of her as the enemy and didn't make eye contact with her at all) like she could have, she had a good time and totally forgot they were there. 

If you don't mind making a silly out of yourself sometimes, you can really do amazing things with hard dogs. The lady with the Boston was like WOW-those dogs (I had Mariele with me too) are SO good. And I







because both my girls have issues-and still do-but I am very happy with the methods I have employed in dealing with them.


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## onyx'girl

Jean, I hope that the next time I go to the vet my dogs will act just like yours! I have to go soon for vacc. and heartworm check so I will follow your lead! Thanks for sharing


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## bearlasmom

> Originally Posted By: Chris08"Sue i have to agree with you here. i did try the ecollar at a level set for what would be used on Bearla and it hurt!"
> 
> Geez!! That's bordering on non-sequitur! I would venture to say that the tug you used when passing the other dogs at the vets would likely hurt most humans.
> Are you saying that you fitted Bearla with an ecollar and the method didn't work or just that you subjected yourself to the stim that you thought would be Bearla's level?
> 
> I thoroughly understand the emotion of people who have furkids. I'm glad your method worked. How long did it take? Do you trust her to do it every time?


i have not, nor would i ever use a ecollar on bearla. i would never trust her to do that all the time though. she went back again today, and she handled it the same way. i had tried every other form except ecollar up to now. i have been using jan fennels training for a while and decided to take Wisc. tigers suggestion to take her in to get treats etc. Well, it looks like Tiger knows the best, sometimes i guess we have to listen to the pros. according to my vet, she claims that those who rely on ecollars constantly (behaviorists), are power hungry and controllists. the behavorist i had used also felt the same way. another method i was using was czar malones.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomaccording to my vet, she claims that those who rely on ecollars constantly (behaviorists), are power hungry and controllists. the behavorist i had used also felt the same way.


Vets are usually a very poor source for dog training information. Training a dog is not part of their medical education. They usually know less about dog training than the average pet dog owner. A couple of my Ecollar clients are vets. They now refer their patients whose dogs are out of control to me. Neither of them knew the first thing about training a dog until I taught them. 

But they wear white coats and probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night! 



> Originally Posted By: bearlasmomanother method i was using was czar malones.


Do you mean Cesar Milan, the guy who alpha rolls dogs and chokes them?


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## towtrip

Most veterinarians that we deal with are becoming very enlightened in dog training and behavior. Some vet schools, like Purdue University and the University of Illinois, are implementing courses of study in behavior. That has helped tremendously. Of course, you need to be working with one of the younger, more educated, veterinarians.

The Veterinary College of the University of Illinois hosted a dog (and cat) behavioral seminar last summer. They had Trish King, Patricia McConnell and Wayne Hunthausen as their speakers -- a real all-star, top-shelf line up. A friend and I went and it was fabulous! Two days of instruction and information, including break-out sessions on some more intense topics. Most of the audience was comprised of veterinarians (young 'uns) and vet techs, which was very encouraging to see.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FMost veterinarians that we deal with are becoming very enlightened in dog training and behavior. Some vet schools, like Purdue University and the University of Illinois, are implementing courses of study in behavior.


Knowing about behavior is GREAT. But it's of little help when training a real, live dog. It enables one to discuss theory with great alacrity, but teaching a dog to recall is quite something else. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FThat has helped tremendously. Of course, you need to be working with one of the younger, more educated, veterinarians.


If you want to talk theory then talking to a "younger, more educated vet" may be an interesting way to pass some time. But most people are more interested in getting real information, not theory, about training their dog If you want to train your dog, a vet is a poor place to get information. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FThe Veterinary College of the University of Illinois hosted a dog (and cat) behavioral seminar last summer. They had Trish King, Patricia McConnell and Wayne Hunthausen as their speakers -- a real all-star, top-shelf line up.


I've been invited to talk to a local vet university. There's not enough time so I don't have any illusions of making them into trainers. They'll learn a few things but that's about it. And I wonder, were other viewpoints presented or just the politically correct ones? Were there any balanced trainers invited? 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FA friend and I went and it was fabulous! Two days of instruction and information, including break-out sessions on some more intense topics. Most of the audience was comprised of veterinarians (young 'uns) and vet techs, which was very encouraging to see.


Sounds like this was a bit more intense than what I've been invited to do but still, it's not going to give them anywhere near the expertise of the trainer. If you need medical advice the vet is the "go to person." If you want dog training advice, not so much.


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## towtrip

Not all trainers are created equal, either. There is no required education or experience, no governing body, no license or other requirements. People with little to no knowledge about dog behavior and with a vague notion that they have some "dog experience" can hang out a shingle and call themselves a trainer. 

Trish King is the Director of Training at Marin Humane Society. She has trained thousands of dogs, written several books, has several fabulous videos of her seminars and training sessions, and is very highly regarded.

Patricia McConnell has a PhD in animal behavior and psychology, has extensive experience in training with clients and her own top-performing herding dogs, has published extensively and is a highly sought-after speaker.

Wayne Hunthausen is a veterinarian with a good, working knowledge of the physiology and neurology behind dog behavior. He is published and an excellent speaker.

I prefer to follow the advice of people with credentials that are independently certifiable beyond their own pronouncements.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FNot all trainers are created equal, either. There is no required education or experience, no governing body, no license or other requirements. People with little to no knowledge about dog behavior and with a vague notion that they have some "dog experience" can hang out a shingle and call themselves a trainer.


This has always been a problem in dog training. I know of people who have gone to a class as short as three weeks and then been "certified" by the person who put on the class as "specialists." They then go out and set up a business training dogs. In the case that I’m thinking of, the person giving the class had little experience in training dogs himself. 

You'd think that with contractors, plumbers and electricians having to be certified by an "official agency" that there'd be something for people who work with live animals. But there isn't. I'm not so sure that government regulation is the best response though. I'm one of those that believe that less government is better. 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FI prefer to follow the advice of people with credentials that are independently certifiable beyond their own pronouncements.


Often the best way to do things. But not always. Having credentials often means nothing. As with the "specialist" anointment that I mentioned earlier. Having a title may also mean nothing. It may be that the person has been to dozens of classes and has passed dozens of certifications but has never trained a single dog! 

In some areas of dog training there aren't any "certifications" available. There aren't any competitions that really measure what those folks do, so looking at awards, certifications or titles means nothing. What counts is being able to get dogs to do their work. 

Even looking at the dogs that belong to the person under examination may tell nothing. Many people have purchased already trained dogs and are passing them off as if they'd done the training. 

I think that the ONLY real test of the quality of someone's training is how well the dogs of their clients respond. Even if a person has trained their own dog and that dog is excellent, it doesn’t mean that they can train YOUR dog. It's how YOUR dog responds to what that trainer does that's important. And I think that's the MOST important thing. 

At my seminars I invite all comers. No matter what your dog's issue is, bring him and we'll work on it. I don't pre-screen any of the dogs as some seminar givers do; any breed, any age, any issue.


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## towtrip

Are you saying that Patricia McConnell and Trish King pre-screen dogs for their seminars or as their clients? That is absolutely not true. When you're working with an open-intake shelter, it's impossible to pre-screen your clients.

You are obviously not familiar with any of their work.


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## LouCastle

> Originally Posted By: Susan FAre you saying that Patricia McConnell and Trish King pre-screen dogs for their seminars or as their clients? That is absolutely not true. When you're working with an open-intake shelter, it's impossible to pre-screen your clients.


Susan if you can find anyplace in my post that I said ANYTHING AT ALL about ANY of the people that you mentioned, please show it to us. My comments were general. 

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." 



> Originally Posted By: Susan FYou are obviously not familiar with any of their work.


You're right. I've never heard of any of them. (Of course they've probably never heard of me either, lol). So why would I comment on what they do? 

It seems that you're taking things a bit too personally. I'd suggest that in the future you take such off-topic comments to PM's rather than clutter up the thread with them.


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## nitetrane98

Then how can you possibly make the statement that you tried the setting that would be used on Bearla and it hurt you? 

Ecollar is a training method, no more, no less. To attach generally considered undesirable personality traits to those who choose to use it is ridiculous IMO. Unfortunately, it's often used when one's logic is challenged and found lacking.
And this from one who used the "Czar Malones" method whom some may say is perhaps the King of the power hungry and controllists regarding dogs?


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## JAguirre

I find this thread really interesting and hope that the moderators don’t remove any of it. It’s good to hear the opposing sides of any argument, especially when they are backed up with facts and not purely emotions. 

I’ve read Lou Castle’s website and was anything but disappointed. I, too, would like to hear what on his website can disappoint anyone. I am a big advocate of motivational training, and if you really read the contents of the site, you would see that his methods are just that. In fact, several times he notes that the bond between human and dog is enormously important. Did you miss the parts of about how important plain old play time with your dog is to that bond? 

To those posters that don’t advocate e-collars – or for that matter training collars of any type as noted numerous times in the posts above – what training have you imposed on your dogs? Have they been titled? Do they work in the police/tactical environment? Do they do search and rescue? To what level has their training been taken?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Or perhaps we could continue to help onyx'girl and start a new thread with that question. 

We are talking about a dog with what is probably a temperament issue who just needs to get through the day. THAT is going to be her title, her accomplishment, as that dog heads down the road toward the bridge, she will be able to say that her dog was able to live happily and without harming another being. That is something, for a pet owner with a dog like that, that is as huge as anything you could think of. With the help of her new trainer, and support here, I think she's going to earn that badge of honor! 

So, please do start a thread for that thought.


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## Brightelf

Is there another Onyx update, Onyx'sGirl? I am interested to hear how things are going with the trainer, if you guys try anything new, and how it works out-- how Onyx responds. I really look forward to hearing the positive updates as she begins to move towards being a safer dog and a happier, more settled dog-- regardless of what is happening around her!


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## onyx'girl

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=615343&page=2#Post615343
This is an update from Saturday. Onyx did very well with other dogs and her breeder, who I can't imagine she remembers)
I have been working on the NILIF and positive correction. She has been better with clover, instead of crating her, I hold her face, make her look at me in the eyes and tell her to be nice to clover. We haven't had any more issues since Friday. I haven't gone back to the trainer. Nor has she contacted me. I want to go to classes there once I get Onyx relaxed in group settings. She has a tracking class that I think Onyx would enjoy.
My breeder(Renae) gave me some suggestions(E-collar may be a possiblity), and because she does know Onyx' temperament, thought some of the more gentler ways of handling things may not work for her. Onyx is a dominant girl in most situations. One thing that was interesting when Renae came over~we were trying to get pictures of Onyx stacked, so she could have that pose, and Onyx tucked tail and got scared when Renae handled her. So stacking was a no go. There was alot going on, with four GSD's running around, though! I will try again with my daughter behind the camera.
In the past week, Onyx has really been a good girl with people coming over(teenage boys). I give the dogs treats when people arrive, so they will focus on me and not bark, bark, bark. Slow, steady baby steps...BTW I think this thread is very interesting as well, it is good to hear many opinions on this and the op's have way more experience than I do.


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## Brightelf

Yeaaaaah Onyx!! It sounds like so much is happening, adjusting to a new way of behaving around Clover, learning to respect you with more of the NILIF, and so much she is learning with training... I am proud of you two!


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Honestly, I would contact your trainer. Possible controversial statement here: the breeder bred this dog...I am not so sure I'd be following her advice so much. Dominant or not, using positive, relationship based methods will get you much farther than harsher methods of any kind. A lot of people will poo-poo the more positive stuff (and that doesn't mean no corrections ever) but to take just one of my dogs, at 15 Kramer has not bitten anyone other than vets (and I know why it happened-always when I was not with him) and that's saying something. Dominant and fear aggressive but force did not help him. Teaching him what I wanted and giving him skills and confidence did. 

Taking confidence away from a dog and making them think they have nothing to add to the team just reinforces their fears.


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## onyx'girl

Jean, what do you mean about the breeder bred this dog...?
I have been in contact thru e-mail with her for Onyx' whole life, sharing most all of her experiences. This is why I stated she knows her temperament.

I will stay with the positive training methods and go slowly as I said. Renae also is a trainer(horse, too, that is what she does for a living), but because she is hour 1/2 away, it doesn't work for us to get together. I am just giving Onyx time to re-enforce her confidence. She just needs to know that I am the one in control! I do have to go to the vet in the next month for heart-worm and vaccs. so hopefully we have a better experience there. In the meantime, I will take her there for a short visit, it is a thirty mile round-trip or I would do it more often~now that gas is $3.45 a gal.(


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

It sounds like you like your breeder-that's great. 

If you think of people like llctzh (I spelled that wrong-sorry) or Chris Wild and how closely they evaluate their dogs and their breeding dogs even more so-and reading about their puppies, you are seeing that they are breeding very strong dogs with good temperament and that people listen to what they say. 

I was just making an assumption (shame on me) that she had not maybe worked the parents of your dog to know them well enough, to push them to see if they exhibited possible faults in temperament that might get passed along. 

So then if you follow my logic, I would look at the trainer you went to and follow more her recommendations (because I believe she may be more the type to work her dogs). But this could be faulty logic if your breeder is titling her dogs! Sorry! I could be very wrong here-I apologize. 

Regardless, to teach a dog you are in charge you can just use NILIF. jarn has a good thread about an aggressive dog she has and is leaving with her brother. 

I posted those http://www.flyingdogpress.com articles there. It's all about that relationship.


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## onyx'girl

Yes my breeder has Miyah(mom) working with her 13 yr. daughter in 4-H. She has done very well in this particular area. She doesn't do the conformation AKC show route, but does 4-H, Miyah has her CGC and was first place in agility for a novice at the fair in '06 and was the only GSD competing(mostly border collies). Miyah is also a working herding dog on a horse and cattle farm. Renae prefers to use a chain throw for calling off the dogs, verses E-collar when they are being trained for herding. She is a knowledgeable dog trainer, but doesn't have the facility or kennel set-up that the one I went to here has-that place is heaven in my opinion!!
I have been reading Jarn's threads on Teegan with interest as Onyx also seems to be a confident dog most of the time, tail high and first in line.


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## BowWowMeow

Glad things with Onyx are going well. I think NILIF is the way to go as well as to continue with the clicker training. I am rereading "Click to Calm" and had forgotten how good it is! Rafi is having issues with other dogs--he bullies them, especially if they are submissive and he's getting possessive of toys if another dog is interested. So I'm starting him on the Click to Calm stuff.


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## big_dog7777

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> My breeder(Renae) gave me some suggestions(E-collar may be a possiblity), and because she does know Onyx' temperament, thought some of the more gentler ways of handling things may not work for her. Onyx is a dominant girl in most situations. One thing that was interesting when Renae came over~we were trying to get pictures of Onyx stacked, so she could have that pose, and Onyx tucked tail and got scared when Renae handled her. So stacking was a no go. There was alot going on, with four GSD's running around, though! I will try again with my daughter behind the camera.
> In the past week, Onyx has really been a good girl with people coming over(teenage boys). I give the dogs treats when people arrive, so they will focus on me and not bark, bark, bark.


None of this sounds like dominance. Dominance and fear are on opposite ends of the spectrum.


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## onyx'girl

> Quote:None of this sounds like dominance. Dominance and fear are on opposite ends of the spectrum.


 I agree, but Onyx does act in a dominate way in most situations when she is comfortable.


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## Chris Wild

> Originally Posted By: onyx'girl
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:None of this sounds like dominance. Dominance and fear are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but Onyx does act in a dominate way in most situations when she is comfortable.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, though truth be told "dominant" and "fear aggressive" rarely come in the same package, since one trait that makes for a dominant personality is a high level of self confidence.. something that a fear aggressive dog is lacking, or else it wouldn't be fear aggressive in the first place. 

Either way, since this is about how to deal with fear aggression, whether or not Onyx is truly dominant is a moot point. Frankly, I would seriously question the actual knowledge and experience of anyone who viewed fear behavior as dominance, or advised you to deal with her dominance issues. I don't care if it's the breeder, a trainer with a stack of credentials, or someone who has mind-melded with the dog. You need to deal with the fear aggression, and the approach for that needs to be completely different. 

The absolute WORST approach to deal with fear aggression is force training. All this does is prove to the dog that yes, indeed, they do have cause to worry and be afraid because sure enough, something bad *will* happen.

Jumping from one trainer to another, or from one person's advice to another, is just going to cause more frustration and confusion and isn't going to solve the problem. You need to pick one trainer and one program and stick with it for a while. Of those you've mentioned you've worked with, I'd stick with Taking the Lead. Julie and the people who work with her, like Kari, are experienced, knowlegeable dog people, who also have a lot of experience with GSDs in particular, and they truly care about the welfare of the dogs and helping you through this situation.


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## onyx'girl

I agree and am working with Julies methods only. I am not confusing Onyx with different methods. I just was giving updates and that was about my breeder coming to visit. I didn't say that I was doing anything different with Onyx~treats and working on taking her places in small doses. I am not jumping from one trainer to another, it is nice to hear feedback on this, and I am not going with different training methods anytime someone suggests something different. and I know that Taking the Lead is a great facility and Julie has the credentials that are trustworthy


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## WiscTiger

I have read this thread in bits and pieces. I think that some females go through a funky stage, some what unsure of themselves, some what bouncy and up and down on the emotional scale. I think just being consistent with training, showing her you care calmly in charge and it sounds like working with Julie will be very helpful.


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## towtrip

> Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger I think that some females go through a funky stage, some what unsure of themselves, some what bouncy and up and down on the emotional scale.


I agree. In my experience, too, the girls that are right around 2 yrs (+/- a few months) can be difficult. They seem to get more reactive around that age and then mellow as they get a little older.

I also see dominance and fear reactivity as opposite ends of the spectrum, although I can understand why someone might confuse the two in certain situations. Sometimes a dog that is reacting to another dog can be doing so out of fear, and not because they want to be "top dog." You really need to understand the subtle body language to discern the difference: the commisure of the mouth, ears, eyes, tail.

It sounds like Onyx is making some good progress!!! YAY!!


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## onyx'girl

Update on Onyx ~she has been fine with Clover, the elder of the pack and I haven't had to crate or muzzle her since the eye to eye talk we had. When I prepare the RAW meals, Onyx is sitting focused on me and what I am doing. She has only growled when she is extremely hungry.
I haven't had the opportunity to socialize her, with other people or children but am working on the NILIF and clicker training. We have gone for walks on the gentle leader and she is doing as well as to be expected. She still froths and jumps somewhat as she knows the dogs will be in the yards barking. She just gets excited and knows where they are and anticipates them. I would like to get her in the next froup type of OB-tracking would be great. There is a herding instinct test at the end of April, but I would just like to go and observe that...Onyx is a natural herder, but no formal training has been done. She has the nose and herding in her genes so maybe either one will be beneficial to her growth. This a.m. she jumped up on the bed and plopped sideway(spoon) with me...weird, I know but was so cuddly and sweet I loved that even if it was 5:30....


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## onyx'girl

Today I was walking both dogs- Onyx was on a gentle leader, Kacie on prong. Two sibling mixes, chow/bullies (about 60 lbs) came running up from a house that my dogs have heard barking from, but never saw the dogs. My dogs were fine- no fur rise, barking and so were the others. Then the owner came up and the guy put his hand right at Onyx, she didn't do a thing, but sniff his hand ! I was really surprised at this as she was focused on sniffing the dogs and didn't even pay attention to the human as he approached. The whole time I was saying " good puppies" and stuff in a happy voice. There was another guy and a 8 yr old child at the driveway, she was fine, no hackeling at anyone.
The guy apologized for dogs off leash, I said no problem, good test for mine! Onyx was fine with him petting her. 
It must have been a fear stage a couple of mos. ago, or the gentle leader is what calmed her. maybe she was reacting to my calmness, or the other dogs lack of aggression. I didn't have treats w/ me or my clicker at this time, so I couldn't re-direct focus with that approach. I was very proud of both Kacie and Onyx during this experience)


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## onyx'girl

Update: 5/08 Onyx and I joined a new SchH. club http://www.schhmi.com/
that meets2x a month at Taking The Lead where I went for the private training. When we got there a pup charged her and Onyx was ok, but a bit nerved up. Other dogs were in crates, barking in their vehicles. Bitework was done first, as one of the members needed a breed survey done. Onyx was very uncomfortable with this and wanted out, so we went outside, she was freaked out when a dog started barking from his crate and tried to get the H out of there. We did go back in and she settled when we started doing basic ob and playtime. All the dogs were GSD's, about 6.
The next training was cancelled due to severe weather, and we missed the last one, as I was in SC. So it has been 6 weeks since we were there, went last night and Onyx remembered it as we went down the drive, she started shaking,& acting anxious. Went inside and let her sniff around opposite side of the room of the others, to calm. We were working on the CGC and Onyx did very well, she let stranger approach, stand for exam and when I left the room for the 3 min, she was ok. It was a positive night and she left with a wag in her tail. She was on a no-slip collar and was fine w/ it.
I know she isn't SchH material,or maybe the tracking and ob only, but being around great trainers and knowledgable people will do nothing but help her, IMO I am also going to the local Kennel club for the CGC training class which starts next week, I think she is now ready for larger group training. So if fear aggression can't be overcome, it can be managed)


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## WiscTiger

Yea that is great progress. I am glad you are learing that managing is the key. 

Val


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## Ben8jam

Wow. That was quite a read!!!

So, um, what's the outcome? To shock or not!?

Have to admit as someone new to this debate, I have to go with the side of Lou. Purely because he's been able to factually back up every but of rhetoric that had been thrown around. **removed by Admin**


A lot of knee jerk reactions. Any method can be abused. My dog was a rescue who had been beaten over the head with some kind of pipe. Bloody welt on her head when we got her. So should all blunt objects be banned from society? The first trainer we hired brought a choke and preferred to hang our dog from it until she submitted. No lie. That was traumatic. So where are the anti-collar debates. 

Let's all just agree that WE will do whatever is best for our dogs. And no one will abuse any technique. I know you are all coming down hard on Lou. But remember he is a dog lover too. And I her his dogs are pretty darn happy. 

Peace and namaste


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## onyx'girl

Welcome Ben8jam
Lou Castle is the E-collar guru for sure...
Just an FYI~ we aren't allowed to talk politics here so don't be surprised if your first post gets edited by the admin or mods.
In the case of Onyx, I didn't go with an e-collar. She matured and mellowed, but still has issues with small kids and the vet doing anything with her. In those cases I use a muzzle or crate her when kids are around. I did take her to a class based on the book _Control Unleashed_ by Leslie McDevitt. That was a turning point in managing her.
I'm not against using an e-collar, but for this case it wasn't needed.


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## Ben8jam

Thanks for the update! I just came back to ask how Onyx was doing. Didnt realize this was over two years old!!! Oops. 

Glad to her she's doing well(er).


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## debbiebrown

fear aggression can definitely be managed through the right conditioning, being a good leader, and trying to keep the dogs from repeating reactive behaviors.....learning your dogs triggers and thresholds is a good start.......

i also think a very helpful exercise is teaching your dog to get behind you.........so you can use this in unexpected situations and take control so your dog can relax..........


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## Puppy grandma

onyx'girl said:


> I have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.


I guess no one ever responded to this. I see you are still active. How did she grow up to be? I have an 18 month old that vet wants on meds for visits. I am trying to socialize her better and find more patient vet.


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## Bearshandler

Puppy grandma said:


> I guess no one ever responded to this. I see you are still active. How did she grow up to be? I have an 18 month old that vet wants on meds for visits. I am trying to socialize her better and find more patient vet.


You looked at a thread with 137 responses from 2011 and determined no one ever responded?


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## herojig

Bearshandler said:


> You looked at a thread with 137 responses from 2011 and determined no one ever responded?


here's 138: forget THAT vet, and get another. ****, next they will prescribe Oxy for mood swings...


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## Puppy grandma

Bearshandler said:


> You looked at a thread with 137 responses from 2011 and determined no one ever responded?


I was reading responses. My question is did she grow out of the behavior with training?


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## Puppy grandma

Agreed! Thank you.


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## BleuHaus

onyx'girl said:


> I have a 15 mo. old and she is fear aggressive. Took her to the vet today and she was almost in the red zone(she was muzzled). She had to have ear check for infection and vet wouldn't even do both of them as Onyx was so upset. Does anyone have suggestions-one trainer I talked w/ suggested e-collar(she is bird/hunting dog trainer) but for fear aggression I don't think this is the way to go. Any help is appreciated.


I have worked with a lot of aggressive dogs...Aggression is a General Term but if your dog is having Fear Aggression then she/he is scared of something so a harsh correction will not be the right thing but being calm and maybe use a muzzle and continue to Socialize just keep some distance from the things that strikes her nerve...I would also be sure to bring her around places and things that are new to her...Also be sure to Play with her...I mean learn how to really PLAY with her and work her to expel some of her energy...It will also help with your Bonding...


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