# Fero & Mink?



## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Personally, I have several sources of Mink/Fero free blood, and zealously guard it. It is mixed WG WL, DDR, Belgian and will be bringing in some Czech with Gaston and Kutter I hope this summer. I have one female (KKL1) line bred on Fero, and am trying to avoid more Fero with her. And I did bring in a female pup recently who is WGR but free of Fero and Mink, who ties into my current lines.


This from another thread. What are the issues with Fero and Mink that you want to get away from? Is it just that these dogs are in so many working pedigrees that there is a danger of too much linebreeding?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The concern is mainly genetic bottlenecking. This is far more of a concern on Fero than Mink. Mink isn't hard to find, but also not at all difficult to find dogs without him if one wants to avoid more Mink. But finding a dog without Fero, often 2, 3, 4 times in the pedigree, is becoming almost impossible it seems.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Ah...the drama if you are so concerned about that just go get a dog from wolfstraum-problem solved


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh if you want Fero free you might go with wildhaus-depending on who she picks for the next sire...imagine that -what luck


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

holland said:


> Ah...the drama if you are so concerned about that just go get a dog from wolfstraum-problem solved


Drama? Problem? Expound on this please. I'm here to learn.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Ok but I gotta go clean my house for starters my dog has fero and mink in her-no problem she is also missing 2 teeth but I'll keep her anyway. But you read this over and over on the internet -wolfstraum has made that post over and over again and usually someone comes along and post exactly what Chris just posts and that is the gist of it. someone with more knowledge than I will come along and post something educational for you-but I really have to clean my house and then take my fero/mink dog off to training


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about finding a Fero-Mink free dog unless you plan on breeding.

These dogs are common because they produced a lot of good things in their kids and they combined well with a lot of other bloodlines. 

But Fero really is becoming quite a bottleneck because of his many good-producing sons and grandsons. For a demonstration, go call up the pedigrees of the top 10 WUSV winners from any of the last 5 years and look how many times you see Fero show up.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

holland, no one is saying the dogs suck. My new dog has Fero 3 times in his 6-gen and I don't care. I mean I care, but in his case I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing, it just helps explain some things and is important to consider if the dog is ever going to be bred. Everyone has dogs they love to line breed on a dogs they try to avoid.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I wouldn't worry about finding a Fero-Mink free dog unless you plan on breeding.
> 
> These dogs are common because they produced a lot of good things in their kids and they combined well with a lot of other bloodlines.
> 
> But Fero really is becoming quite a bottleneck because of his many good-producing sons and grandsons. For a demonstration, go call up the pedigrees of the top 10 WUSV winners from any of the last 5 years and look how many times you see Fero show up.


Indeed. Both my GSDs have Mink and Fero.

What in particular they known for producing? 

I heard it said that Fero was bred to a LOT of bitches, some good and some not so good... when the combination was good, it seemed to "click" very nicely, but if the bitches were weak, there would tend to be temperament issues in the offspring. If anyone can speak to particulars, that would be appreciated as I didn't get much more information.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Fero and Mink have produced reliably excellent dogs and have been used extensively for those reasons. But a few generations down the road, breeders need to be aware of maintaning a genetic diversity in the breed, and thus their effort to find dogs that don't have Fero and/or Mink in them. But hard, because the best dogs (like holland's) have Fero and Mink in their pedigree (and often repeatedly), so a challenge to find good dogs with different lines running through them. 

It is their very success at passing their genetic stamp down the line that is causing some challenges for breeders. 

No drama, just a bit of misunderstanding.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

The worst of Mink -- ugly dogs (anvil heads, long, narrow noses), long bodied, long ears, handler aggression, lack of "biddability" -- dogs who are escape artists from crates and kennels, nasty levels of dog aggression

worst of Fero -- extremely low thresholds, hecticness, nerviness, or even spookiness, inability to handle drive/stimulation (kinda just lose it under stimulation), and connected to those issues, lack of intestinal fortitude (dogs who get diarrhea easily); extreme small size--like under 50 pounds (through Yoschy)


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Though I have also heard Mink brings in good hunt drive. Fero? I think of him more as prey drive but many working police pedigrees and SAR pedigrees I have seen have Fero through Troll and Timmy in them .. at least the West German component if they are a czech blend.

LOL I guess Grim (czech) is Mink and Fero free but he was shooting blanks. Never thought of it. 

Cyra is a Crok grandaughter (Mink) and she *does* have some of those traits listed though diluted a little bit.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Cyra is a Crok grandaughter (Mink) and she *does* have some of those traits listed though diluted a little bit.


I seem to remember hearing that Crok produced some handler-aggressive dogs, is that true?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

As far as the list of Mink negatives, Crok produced more than any other line to Mink. Dog and handler aggression and what one could call "anger management issues" were there. But he also brought some of the good Mink stuff too so wasn't all bad. I like Mink, quite a lot actually, but of course it depends on what else is there in the pedigree to compensate and bring balance. Crok would be my least favorite of the popular Mink sons. That said, we had a Crok granddaughter (also Fero granddaughter), and she was quite nice without any of the nastys from Crok.

All dogs have good and bad to them. Breedings obviously are done with the goal of bringing out the good, and stifling or compensating for the bad so it doesn't surface. The problem with backmassing heavily on a particular dog is that one tends to significantly increase the prevalence of the bad stuff coming out by doubling (or tripling or quadrupling) up on those genes as well as the good ones. Even when the potential bad stuff is kept to a minimum, heavy backmassing can cause problems with the good things too. Many good things are only really good in moderation. A little bit can go a long way, and too much can turn a good thing into a bad thing.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

And there are other dogs - I had heard xento who was also close up in her pedigree was correlated with dog agression.

My female is not handler agressive though she will talk back to me and you could see the gears going once when I gave her a harsh correction. She is female dog agressive and is not the best at meet n greet. Once introduced she is safe, particularly around males. I know that both of her uncles were famously handler agressive...but then gather there is the other side to that story of how you manage the dog - is there truly handler agression or just very rank dogs? Asking, dunno.

I will tell you she had/has hunt drives off the chart. She was very biddable IF it involved food or a toy. Other than that, she has her own agenda.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

I aways wanted some of it in my dogs pedigree my current dog has 0

Just thought it seem like a great dog


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I am not anti Fero or Mink - just picky where it comes from. Yes - it is a genetic bottleneck. And I am happy to have dogs without it. Basha has Fero, she has produced terrific dogs and quite a few titled ones. 

A dog does NOT need Fero to be "good". Pike was a terrific dog and he had no Fero. So was Tom. Sorry. So that is just not true - the reason you see so many dogs at big event with Fero is just because so many many dogs have Fero! It is just harder to find dogs without Fero The PDB lists him as having over 1000 puppies! Troll listed as over 900 - while Timmy - who was not nearly as extensively bred in Germany had less than 300 on PDB (and these are not complete numbers either)....Troll was a terrific producer and it is mainly though him that Fero has attained predominance....I will use certain lines to Fero and not others. 

Yes - this has come up before....so what - most subjects come up over and over....the posters flucuate, as does the info...so what???? I think that posters whose primary regular contribution to the forum is anonymous sarcasm and innuendo should find something constructive to focus on.

I like biddability, and attractive heads...and thus am careful about Mink as well...

Lee


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

hi i had a quick question a lot of the sport points dogs today the prey monsters that score very high in shutzund are they dogs that often have mink and fero in them? I hear people mention these dogs constantly yet i never see one of these dogs pedigree nor do i EVEr hear about who produces such dogs??!?!?  they are mentioned so much though you would think people would name some names of dogs responsible for such creations ?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

wolfstraum said:


> Yes - this has come up before....so what - most subjects come up over and over....the posters flucuate, as does the info...so what???? I think that posters whose primary regular contribution to the forum is anonymous sarcasm and innuendo should find something constructive to focus on.


Or better yet to be more forthcoming with actual information! Thanks to all who have been willing to answer my questions and participate in frank discussion without defensiveness. Being fairly new here, I realize some of my questions have been discussed before, so forgive me for that... I can always be directed to a link if there's one available. I find the "search" functions on these boards kind of cumbersome, so I don't use it as much as I probably should.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

pets4life said:


> hi i had a quick question a lot of the sport points dogs today the prey monsters that score very high in shutzund are they dogs that often have mink and fero in them ?


Yes, particularly Fero. Much of the temperament brought by Fero was what would be considered "sporty". Not saying that all dogs with Fero fit that category, but the genetics he brought sure did in most cases.

Whether one likes a dog, dislikes a dog, or is ambivalent about a dog, a genetic bottleneck in any line is a concern. Particularly when it also heralds a significant shift in the dogs. Just as Lance is considered the dog standing at the crossroads where the American lines diverged, and Canto/Quanto at the crossroads of where the German show lines diverged, with the way things are going we may well look back in a few years and say Fero was at the crossroads of where the "sport" lines diverged.

I'm not saying Fero is a bad dog, or that his presence in a pedigree indicates specialized sport breeding. But there's a definite correlation between breeding geared in that direction and the accumulation of lots of Fero in those pedigrees.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

My 10 month old male has Mink and Crok behind him, but exhibits no negatives that they are known to produce. I was cautioned against getting him for all the bad qualities that he might bring to the table.

I chose to trust the person who raised him from a puppy, (he was around 7 months when I got him) and has personal knowledge of his sire and dam, as well as other dogs behind him.

So far he is showing to be an awesome confident dog, Bulletproof nerves, great temperament, very high drive, full calm crushing grips for his age, and so on and so on. Absolutely nothing about him I don't like. 

It is possible for aggression issues to arise when he matures, although I don't think so, based on what I see now. I am of the belief though, that a lot has to do with how an animal is raised when the lines are known for it. 

So although pedigrees are important to have knowledge in, which I don't, ultimately it really boils down to the individual dog in question.

Maybe the percentage is higher that you will get the good or the bad that you see in a pedigree, but that doesn't mean that you will..

His pedigree below:
Wotan vom Haus Loschan - German Shepherd Dog


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Indeed--just because you *can* get the negatives from these dogs doesn't mean that you will. And a careful breeder consciously seeks to avoid the potential negatives by their choice of the individual breeding partners.

For an example, though, of how tightly some dogs are bred on Fero, take a look at this 6 generation pedigree--

6 gen. pedigree for Vidocq de Valsory - German Shepherd Dog

I might breed to this dog, but I wouldn't want to take a bitch with Yoschy in her pedigree to him--just for the sake of genetic diversity. And that's why I say "Fero-free" really only matters if you're breeding. Especially if you value genetic diversity and want to have your choice of stud dogs.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

just checked pedigreedatabase for "reverse linebreeding" on Fero... I am beginning to see what you mean.


*See if any dogs are linebred to V Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich*

Reverse linebreeding does a progeny listing to find out which descendants are linebred to this particular dog

For top producers this can be a huge list of dogs to work with (well over 100.000). So there is a limit to this check, just to keep the responce time within the acceptible

*Too many results, doglist stoped at 50.000.*

Showing those within 50.000

*The resultset was too large. Actual result was 8056, only showing 500*


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

The problem is that with some of the genetic temperament characteristics, pups will appear not to carry or express them - but at maturity - 2.5 to 3, they become apparent. And no, not every dog carrying him will become handler aggressive. Not every dog gets all the best or the worst from each side. The key is being able to research and analyze a breeding pair as well as the extended family and and deciding how risky you feel it is, and if you want to take that risk in breeding or buying a puppy.

A friend of mine had a male who was by a very very very famous German stud dog. He was raised with positive training, taken to Sch3 several times - then one day the dog just came up the leash at her seriously - luckily she avoided a bite due to the set up in training at just that moment - but the dog went on the market the same day. While the second owner never got bitten, he was very very knowledgeable and careful in his handling of the dog. I knew the dog, did obedience with him and had no issue with him. But we all knew what was there genetically.

Ahhh - yes, the reverse linebreeding shows alot. And in many litters, only 1 or 2 dogs are entered...so the numbers are probably significantly higher.

Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

I wonder what makes him very very very famous as opposed to just plain old famous or very famous-but sometimes you can understand where a dog might be coming from-and you are so right it is much better to put your name to sarcasm and innuendo-


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

holland - if it is so boring and repetitious to you...why do you even bother to read!? You are not constructive at all. You snipe and cut but don't have the balls to identify YOURSELF!

and you do not understand DISCRETION or confidences - since many people would know the individual, if named, and the story is not thrown out for gossip and public dissection. Suffice to say he is a son of one of the dogs mentioned in the thread. 

Lee


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## dogsnkiddos (Jul 22, 2008)

What an interesting thread. When I posted the pedigree of Beast I got a few pms asking me if we'd ever had issues and suggestions that he might not be a great family dog- to watch him carefully. He has Mink/Crok...but particularly his father Leo seemed to be a really extreme dog if I am to believe the pms I received (which I have no reason not to do so as I have never met the father- Beast was a rescue). He(Beast) has his issues to be certain, but I never really got the big picture of the genetics. This thread has been an eye opener. There is a whole world of info that could help me be a better Beast home, just by knowing his family!
(Just wanted to add I got pms from more than one person which is why I assumed the info was accurate)


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

wolfstraum said:


> holland - if it is so boring and repetitious to you...why do you even bother to read!? You are not constructive at all. You snipe and cut but don't have the balls to identify YOURSELF!
> 
> and you do not understand DISCRETION or confidences - since many people would know the individual, if named, and the story is not thrown out for gossip and public dissection. Suffice to say he is a son of one of the dogs mentioned in the thread.
> 
> Lee


 
Actually I have 2 balls right now-but they are disappearing at an alarming rate-the third is underneath the dock am hoping Rorie will retrieve it next week-


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## JLOCKHART29 (Aug 23, 2009)

Lee I had to chuckle when I read the comment about Mink bring in handler agression and coming out of crates! I got that Owens Professional all weilded crate ordered for Auron. Had to build it and will ship Thursday. Also he has been an angle last week. Zero agression even with his teeth brushing but he started getting stinky yesterday and knew it was a matter of time. Took one prayer meeting and two confessionals to understand the divinity of clean teeth this morning! LOL Do you thinking Mink leaking threw both sides could be some of this?


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

People have to understand that when this type of backmassing on a dog takes place depending on the negatives of the dog different things will appear. Take Canto, who was from a weak mother and weak bloodline, you can never keep backmassing on him and improve temperament. Quanto had better temperament expressed but had the same weak genetic dogs as Canto on one side so again (though it would take longer) intense backmassing on him will eventually lead to weaker temperament. With Fero/Mink, weak temperament was not a genetic issue, but more like drive levels, structure, too much drive and ability to cap it, and in some cases handler aggression. Not either of these dogs had these traits exclusively, or produced them exclusively, but as we continue to breed Fero grandparents to grandparents, and G-grandparents to G-grandparents, and GG-grandparents to GGgrandparents, you are going down that road that the negatives will become so strong that they become the a symbol of the line. Balance is out of wack and yeah it may be good for sport or it may be good for Show or whatever, but eventually it is going to lead to a bottleneck that will take generations to undue. And the health issues will certainly become more prevalent because that is a result of this type of breeding.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Chris Wild said:


> Yes, particularly Fero. Much of the temperament brought by Fero was what would be considered "sporty". Not saying that all dogs with Fero fit that category, but the genetics he brought sure did in most cases.
> 
> I'm not saying Fero is a bad dog, or that his presence in a pedigree indicates specialized sport breeding. But there's a definite correlation between breeding geared in that direction and the accumulation of lots of Fero in those pedigrees.


Definitely depends on the breeding. Husband had a Troll GS Looked, sounded and worked like him. None of the WUSV helpers or National helpers in the states/Europe would ever refer to Drigon as sporty. Same as Jenny Seefield's dog Charlie (littermate).


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sue is definitely right...it depends on the breeding. I know WGSL dogs that can do high level police dog work....depends on the individual dog and what is in combination with the dog. Fero had a line through his son Timmy that was known for producing serious dogs, as the brother Troll was found in greater abundance in high level sport. Still, there is a "sporty" type of dog that is produced today and the knowledgable breeders know this. Remember, any dog with Troll has the capability of producing the seriousness that Timmy produced as they were litter brothers. Did Troll produce the more serious dogs like Timmy did consistently???? I'll let other weigh in on this and correct me if I'm off. But Troll and Timmy could produce non sporty dogs, but just by the results of Aly Vordinsteinwald, a Troll son, who is one of the most prolific producers of high sport we can gather some insight. (And Aly certainly was known for sporty dogs).


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