# Went to first show to watch yesterday in OH, WHY



## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

don't they show the German line & why is it always all American ?

~Thanks~


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## sleachy (Aug 10, 2001)

Did you go to an AKC show?


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## msm10301 (Nov 3, 2008)

Our family went to an AKC show here in the Detroit area this fall. We left after about 30 minutes, being thoroughly unimpressed with the dogs. I may be stepping on some toes here, but the way these GSD's walked and acted made me cringe. It was the type of show where they prance the dogs around the ring and a judge rates them on different aspects. I would much rather watch GSD's do what they were originally bred for WORK!!


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

Yep & no German showlines ? Our boy is a German showline & just like the looks of him better than the American (sorry). I seen major slant, floppy feet & hips, little heads, with long thin noses.

Just love the big blocky heads & bodies of the German line.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

yep it is the judges, I have american for I show in that, but I also have a west german show/american show (half/half) and the judges like her in UKC I have seen more and more germans being shown and they are doing most of the winning


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Isn't it funny you went to an AKC show and found American show lines? I wonder if I went to a shutzhund trial if I'd find vicious biting German Shepherds. I think the bashing of American show lines should be taken down a notch. The owners of these dogs love their dogs and aren't ruining the breed. They do health checks, feed correctly and vet them as needed. This is a German Shepherd forum and just like we don't bash shelter dogs I think its time to be nice to all. Now that I have your attention I do NOT believe all attack trained dogs are vicious, I realize most are playing with the sleeve and only a few are actually vicious. But I love my show line dog and whether he makes it in the show ring or not I will love him and do the best with and for him.


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## EJQ (May 13, 2003)

*Re: Went to first show to watch yesterday in OH, W*

Well, in general German bred dogs do not do well in AKC shows. Believe me we know! Been there done that!!








I'm not sure that the AKC judges have ever seen anything but the typical GSD American Show lines.The majority of them probably have never seen a Seiger Show.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Dear trudy:

Why would anyone bash a shelter dog? Never seen it done, never heard of it done. Shelter dogs end up in the shelter due to irresponsible breeders and irresponsible owners. Has nothing to do with the shelter, nor the dog. 



> Quote:Now that I have your attention I do NOT believe all attack trained dogs are vicious, I realize most are playing with the sleeve and only a few are actually vicious.










thanks! That made my day! I can _guarantee_ you that a level-headed, strong-nerved, properly-trained GSD of the correct temperament is neither "playing" with the sleeve, nor is it vicious.

My _shelter_ dog, who does Schutzhund, can attest to that! (and she is far from "playing", and not "vicious" in the least)!


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

Castlemaid: My comments were to show the inflamatory comments being used to discuss American show lines. I do not agree with what I said just trying to make a point. I love my boy and girl as much as anyone else adn Iam positive other show line folks do too. All I was tryiing to say was when you go to a show site that is for AKC then you shouldn't be surprised to see them there. If you don't like them then don't go or show some nice comments. I often feel that people here look on our dogs as inferior when they are not, they just may not do what you want but will do what we want. And they will work with what we want. Now I am not trying to start an argument but an open discussion.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

I wasn't commenting on American Showlines, nor other people's opinions of them. 

I was commenting on YOUR uninformed opinion of dogs trained in bite-work. 

Apples and oranges.


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## trudy (Aug 25, 2008)

but I don't believe my own statements either, I agree with yours, my comments were for the original poster to state find something you like or say nothing, Breed bans will hit our breed one day too, and we should all work together, not split into different types adn interests. We should all work together and form a unified front. If we don't like a type or activity say nothing or try to find a positive thing to say. Be Thumper in "Bambi" "If you can't say something nice, say nothing


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Trudy, I don't think the OP understands that the AKC ring is typically only for the American line GSDs, with a few exceptions. Sometimes German lines do well in the show ring but this is very rare. Likewise for an American line in the German ring. Unfortunately the breed is very disjointed and each group is often VERY picky. But if the AKC is given a GSD that does match the standard to the letter, it might not place at all- many times the dog that is the current trend or is attached to the lead of Jimmy Moses will win. Same thing in the German ring. Most of those VA dogs shouldn't even be getting an S and the strong V-rated working and showline dogs are the ones that really are prime examples of the breed and deserving of the highest rating.









To the OP: next time, check with your local schutzhund club to find an SV-style show. You'll see plenty of German lines then.











> Quote: I realize most are playing with the sleeve and only a few are actually vicious.


Enthusiasts who are all about the TRUE GSD will note that the dog must never play or be vicious but it must be serious- fighting for real rather than for a game or out of fear. Schutzhund as it was meant to be should test character, not be happy fun playtime with a nice person holding a tug toy that fits over the arm.


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## LuvourGSDs (Jan 14, 2007)

OK, not bashing any American lines, I know not all dogs look like the ones we saw, but do see this in more Amer. lines than the German.

I love all GSDs, but to each their own when it comes to looks, some like Amer., some German, some long coats, blacks, whites, sables, etc !

I have 2 (1 being a shelter dog) that aren't AKC reg., but are PB & love them no less.

I was just wondering why no Germans in the ring & knew it was a AKC show, but thought if you owned a German show like us, why couldn't they be shown if they are AKC reg ? This is all I was wondering ?

What is a SV-style show ?

~Thanks much~


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## Xeph (Jun 19, 2005)

They can be shown as long as they have no disqualifying faults and are AKC registered...they're just highly unlikely to place


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

There is an average yet very well known and highly rated American line GSD bitch.










There is an average yet very well known and highly rated German showline dog (male).

Notice that they are of the same breed yet VASTLY different. They unfortunately could not be shown fairly in the same ring because of huge biases and prejudices and perhaps even blindness to the standard in many cases. The standard has been subject to interpretation by humans and as we all know, humans are anything but perfect, and so we have a few splits in the breed. The SV is the main German shepherd dog club, of course it is based in Germany, but that is THE club. They set the standard for the breed worldwide except for the USA. SV-style shows are the types of shows that were designed by the breed's founder to perpetuate only the best of the best. Many will argue that that's changed a bit over the years.









http://www.monsterdog.net/svshowing.html
A good description of SV-style shows.

http://leerburg.com/flv/video.php?id=1
Streaming video of the 1984 siegers! I've watched only a part of it and you cannot skip around (last time I've checked anyway), but this is really cool! The sieger show is the national/world championship for showdogs. VA1 at the German sieger show is considered the best of the best by those in the show world.


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## msm10301 (Nov 3, 2008)

Trudy,
Not everyone, myself included knew that the AKC only shows American Shepherds. From what I saw these dogs are not what Von Stephanitz had in mind when he designed the breed. They are made to look a certain way and prance around the ring, not work. Mike


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## nitetrane98 (Feb 23, 2008)

Whether German or American they call them "show" lines for a reason. They call them working lines for a reason too. Some are for show, some are for work and basically ne'er the twain shall meet. It's no different than pretty much any other kind of show. Have you ever been to a car show? Some of the monster engines you see in some of them won't even run. But they look fantastic. Basically all a showline dog has to do is look good and not bite the judge. Judges in any venue typically interpret the rules and standards. There are no unbiased judges in anything.
While you'll get no argument from me regarding Von Stephanitz, I won't even go into how Schutzhund dogs are required to look. It's a sport, there are rules in every type of competition. 
To complain that American Showline dogs look like American Showline dogs and to wonder why German Showline dogs don't compete well in American Shows, and vice versa, is bewildering to me.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Like Jackie (Xeph) said, any purebred, papered GSD can be shown in the ring. However, do not expect anything but that particular "flavor" of GSD to win. Because of that, there just isn't a point to show a German showline or even a working line in the AKC ring. There are exceptions and YES, German lines and working lines have gotten points and even finished their championships, but that's a very rare occurrence.


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## emjworks05 (May 30, 2008)

I feel like if you love the GSD breed you should love it as a whole, and not try to pick apart what you like and dislike about them.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

LuvourGSs - if you want to see German lines, try UKC shows or go to German style shows (USA, WDA, etc). It will be hard (maybe impossible) to find German style shows in our area right now b/c of the weather (these are always outside). There is one in North Carolina in March I think and three in Chicagoland April/May. I am entering my German show line puppy in a UKC show next month.

My bitch is German working lines and has a CH from the UKC. Her son is a working line/show line cross and I think nearly has his GRCH (also my bitch almost had a GRCH but she was spayed and I didn't show her).


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## canucme278 (Apr 18, 2002)

> Originally Posted By: Chris08Whether German or American they call them "show" lines for a reason. They call them working lines for a reason too. Some are for show, some are for work and basically ne'er the twain shall meet.


This is sooo true! There are several dogs that are imports that have done quite well in our AKC show rings. I will give you a VERY good example 
http://www.darby-dan.com/jimv.htm
This boy is the 1st import GSD in over 40 years to obtain his ROM in the US. I am slightly partial to him since he is the grandsire to 2 of my dogs one of which is my Ch Darby. BUT remember this boy is a show line dog. I have heard both sides of the arguement for example from those big tough SCH trainers that say "American GSD's cannot compete in SCH. That one makes me laugh really hard after they ask who our Bandjoe is out of, and they say how impressed they are with him. He is an ALL American Bred who is getting ready to obtain his first SCH title. Its true that some GSD's cannot function as they were ment but I really have to say ALOT of the GSD's in the show ring also go on to obtain obedience titles as well as herding ect. Yes some breeders have gone to the extream with their dogs and what they breed in american lines but the same goes for the imports. Not all imports are roachy aweful looking things and not all am breds are over angulated. And going to ONE show often does NOT give you an accurate picture of what's out there in the show ring. I have been to shows where the dogs have been less then stellar and I have been to ones with fabulous dogs. As for health....look on CHIC and see how many imports are listed on there....most all are American breds. If you don't know what CHIC is go to http://www.offa.org and you can get info on it. My Tyger only lacks one health test result and his temperamant test and he will have his CHIC # as well.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

I do wonder how people can go to one show and form an opinion.


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## denwil2007 (Apr 15, 2007)

I didn't finish the post above and it should not have been posted, but since it's there, let me clarify.

It's hard to really judge Amer GSD's on one show. After you go to a few of them, you realize that there are lots of people, even within this group, who have different ideas of what a gsd should look like. Some have germ bred dogs, and try to get their amer breds to look as close to them as possible. Some want bigger heads and more athletic ability. Some want deeper chest and richer colors. Some want a lot of things. Some just want a pretty dog who moves nicely. 

We are not all in the same boat. 

Things happen at shows that we don't all agree on. Then yu go to a different show and something totally different happens. And you wonder how anyone ever finishes a dog with such varied opinions, that seem to change everyday. 

You just have to breed what you like, like what you breed, show what you like and hope it wins. 

I just saw another german dog that know I could show in all breeds if not specialties. Boy, I'd like to have her.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: canucme278
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Chris08Whether German or American they call them "show" lines for a reason. They call them working lines for a reason too. Some are for show, some are for work and basically ne'er the twain shall meet.
> ...


It seems Jim has become the poster boy for the "Americans CAN work and CH/VA in both venues", but have there been any successful dogs since? I mean, it's been almost 10 years. That alone speaks volumes to me.

I do like a LOT of American dogs and while my dogs are German show and working line, I have nothing against American dogs. However, I don't really buy into "they CAN work" based on obedience titles and herding certificates. Strip away all the looks and breeding and when someone asks me what is a German shepherd it is all about drive, sound temperament, and attitude. Plenty of dogs (including my own) can get obedience titles and herding certificates but are still lacking in sound temperament and drive.

But now it seems even SchH titles are being handed out like lollypops from the bank teller...


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## mjbgsd (Jun 29, 2004)

Interesting, Isa is related to Jim. Did not know that...


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