# Basic training is done...whats next?



## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ditka is now 13 weeks old and is doing great. He is taking a puppy class and has been 3 times...this last time the trainer told me that once he has all his shots he needs to go to the next level of training as he is doing so well. I have 2-3 weeks until this is done so I wanted to take the time to take his training into my hands and work on a couple of new things before the next time he goes to class.

So far he has learned sit, down, shake, focused attention, recall from stranger back to me, and some loose leash walking.

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to teach on my own? Maybe leave it? Stay? Im just not sure what at 13 weeks will really be feasible. I could just keep practicing whats already been covered?

Thanks all!


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

This is an excellent time to teach them to love to learn. I would find some simple tricks and work with him on a new trick each week, or if he is a fast learner, each day. Also keep working on what he already has learned and keep working him with more and more distractions. Is there another class you could sign up to take?


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

You definetly need to keep up with what he has learned.If you can get him to do the other things mention go ahead.I don't think with the basic obedience there is any guideline of when they can start learning.Like a baby, if say at 4 months it can sit on it's own your not going to hold it back till 6 months.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Im going to meet with some ScH people Thursday so maybe they will have some fun training ideas to keep us busy. I bought 8 classes at this one place so Id like to stay there and just use those for now. Since I made this post Ive done what I should have done and browsed this section more...I found some great ways to teach "off" so we will work on that as he has been jumping on the counters quite a bit in the kitchen.

Another question on focus...do you all use a verbal marker when you want him to focus on you? All we did in class was wait for him to look at me and then click and treat.

Thanks all...these dogs are like sponges when it comes to learning


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I use a verbal marker when I get eye contact but I never really started teaching it until they were adults. I do not really clicker train per se (I tend to have better timing with a verbal marker).


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

I've found "leave it" is a great command for them to learn! It can be beneficial in soooo many ways. My cats love that command.


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## mkennels (Feb 12, 2008)

stay is a good one, down/stay and walk away, stand/stay


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: AmaruqI use a verbal marker when I get eye contact but I never really started teaching it until they were adults. I do not really clicker train per se (I tend to have better timing with a verbal marker).


What word do you use? Watch?

Thanks!


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## DancingCavy (Feb 19, 2001)

I prefer to teach focus as a default behavior initially. I do not want to have to ask Risa for attention all the time (she does have a cue to look at me, but I rarely use it). 

One easy way to do this is stand in a room with your dog (minimal distractions at first). When he looks at you, click/treat and toss the treat onto the floor. Don't give it directly to him. You want him to break the eye contact and get a chance to repeat the behavior. It takes a lot of patience at first so don't start making kissy noises or anything to get his attention. Just wait. Do this 10 times or so then take a break and try again. What you're trying to get is a dog who will stare at you because he's associated it with good things happening (treats!).









Sounds like he's got a great start. Keep it up!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: aubieI've found "leave it" is a great command for them to learn! It can be beneficial in soooo many ways. My cats love that command.


Its on the list for sure as Ive been using nein WAY too much and need to start toning that down and being more specific...

To cover over the next few weeks....
Off, what German command is used? Ive got a good way to teach this that I found on the forum
Focus, toss treat to floor and be patient

Now I need to research the best ways to teach these
Leave it, lass es
Stay, bleib


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Murphy-ElperroguapoI prefer to teach focus as a default behavior initially. I do not want to have to ask Risa for attention all the time (she does have a cue to look at me, but I rarely use it).
> 
> One easy way to do this is stand in a room with your dog (minimal distractions at first). When he looks at you, click/treat and toss the treat onto the floor. Don't give it directly to him. You want him to break the eye contact and get a chance to repeat the behavior. It takes a lot of patience at first so don't start making kissy noises or anything to get his attention. Just wait. Do this 10 times or so then take a break and try again. What you're trying to get is a dog who will stare at you because he's associated it with good things happening (treats!).
> 
> ...


Ah, makes sense...maybe thats why the trainer didnt didnt use a command to ask for the focus. In class we didnt toss the treat but I REALLY like that idea! Thanks. Ill do this tonight.


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

Off is Aus/Auf. But also used as Out and Release. So several meanings for the one word. We use Off to mean off the couch. Out to mean out the door and Aus to release the toy or bite sleeve.

sounds like your pup is doing great and has a lot lined up!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KCandMaceOff is Aus/Auf. But also used as Out and Release. So several meanings for the one word. We use Off to mean off the couch. Out to mean out the door and Aus to release the toy or bite sleeve.
> 
> sounds like your pup is doing great and has a lot lined up!


Thanks...sounds good and Ill use the same


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

I did about 10 minutes of focus work last night, no words just wait until he sat and made eye contact before throwing the treat and having him do it again. At the end he had it down pretty good. Ill mix in hand movements next.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

My main focus for a pup this young would be to continue to socialize in new places, new people, new sites and sounds...

As well as work on the bond with you for training and enthusiasm. IF you haven't already done so, working a tug toy into your training for a reward is a huge help in future bonding and training!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks, I do need to keep that in mind and not let socialization lag behind...with it being winter its been difficult but I think we are doing fairly well. And I need to remember his age...I want this all to be fun for him at this point and not let the human get too carried away


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

KC -- can you share some of the ways that you found to teach "off" -- my puppy is SO tempted by counters, the baby gate, and the couch (when my husband and I are on it). She's getting a LITTLE better about just sitting by the baby gate when she wants our attention, but could definitely use some help!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaKC -- can you share some of the ways that you found to teach "off" -- my puppy is SO tempted by counters, the baby gate, and the couch (when my husband and I are on it). She's getting a LITTLE better about just sitting by the baby gate when she wants our attention, but could definitely use some help!


Sure, Ill put a post on here that I copied to my training sheet that seems to be more for jumping on people. My apologies but I cant recall whose post I got it from!

_And what do you want the word OFF to mean? For us, off means get your paws back on the floor. That can be used for jumping on people, being on furniture, etc.

I teach off by first allowing the dog to jump up on me. I don't encourage it I just allow it to happen. Then I say OFF and only reward when all four paws are back on the floor.

With some dogs it can be quite a waiting game - like with our Sasha. When she jumps up on me and I say OFF she will try giving me really cute looks, then sad looks and anything else she can think of before she finally puts her feet back on the floor. The whole time I simply ignore her - until the feet hit the floor. Then she is rewarded. _

Also my trainer said that when they jump on counters to throw a treat on the ground and when they get all 4's on the floor to click, say OFF, and praise.

Right now I stopped looking too much into it as Im first going to work on his recall and leave it as they are more safety based and seem more important for now.

I hope this helped a little bit at least?


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Just did our first work with leave it...he did very well!

I placed a piece of hot dog on the floor and when he went for it I covered it with my hand and said lass es...when he would pull back or look away I clicked and treated with the other hand. I kept repeating this and at the end was able to say lass es, cover, uncover, say lass es again, and then we he moved back or looked at me I clicked and treated. Ill continue to work on this over time and when he gets it down Ill introduce get it or take it and let him have the treat on the ground.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Yay! Way to go! 

Next get up and walk away while doing the leave it command...see how long he can follow it while you're not there to cover it up quickly.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

KC -

I'm going to keep track of your posts 'cause I think our pups are close enough in age that we're working on some of the same things (although I'm not using German!) 

How's clicker training going for you? (We haven't been using it, but after I posted another message --above this one -- I've been thinking about it.)

We're also working on leave it similarly (minus the clicker).

Thanks for the help with the "off" command. We've got plenty of opportunities to drill it in with that baby gate she loves to jump on!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: aubieYay! Way to go!
> 
> Next get up and walk away while doing the leave it command...see how long he can follow it while you're not there to cover it up quickly.


Ill have to try that...today I was able to put the treats on his paws when he was laying down and give lass es and he did a great job of leaving them and looking to me 

Next time once warmed up on the basics Ill try that...if Im not able to cover it and he goes for and gets it how do I handle that? Just go back to a place where I can cover it and train some more?


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaKC -
> 
> I'm going to keep track of your posts 'cause I think our pups are close enough in age that we're working on some of the same things (although I'm not using German!)
> 
> ...


Awesome! Our pups are very close in age! Ive really enjoyed the clicker training as its consistent and I can use it for all sorts of behaviors I want to enforce. Our puppy class used it and Im glad they did or I might not have started.

Im going to keep working on leave it and tomorrow with help of a long line and my girlfriend work on his recall command. They are like little sponges right now...so much fun


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Update....

Leave it is going very well, he rarely goes for the treat on the floor or his paw no matter how long it sits there...next I need to mix in walking away a little bit as right now Im right there on the floor.

Sit, down, shake...all happening 99% of the time when he is in "training mode" and hot dogs are around Next with this I need to work on getting him to do it when not treated each time and also in other situations. He is also sitting before water and food...I like this a lot.

Fun stuff...almost has roll over and shake "other paw" down.

Recall...again happens everytime when in "training mode", Im now going to use the long line and work on it when just out in the back yard.

Next up...need to look into how to teach drop it.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

KC 

This sounds great! I was working on leave it in the kitchen too and I THINK it's sort of inadvertently sinking in on walks too. She likes going to all sorts of gross stuff like garbage and cigarette butts. I've just kept on walking and said "leave it" and she's so focused on getting a treat from me when she hears "leave it" that she'll just walk by whatever the desired object is. I'll have to work on doing it in slightly more "worrying" scenarios like pieces of trash on corners where I have to stop to wait for traffic. 

Juno does "gimme five" rather than shake (same idea, different command) -- my one problem is that now sometimes when I'm sitting on the floor next to me, she'll raise her paw up and try to put it on me to get a treat... any ideas on how to train that out without loosing "gimme five?"

Nice work on the roll over! I tried a few weeks ago with Juno, but I don't think she was physically able to do it at that point. You've inspired me to try again!

We're working on recall all the time, but I'm trying to be super careful about it because I don't want her to learn she can ignore it. I'm worried that she already has ignored it outside a few times (even when on a short lead). 

We've been working on drop it for a while. At first, when she was holding something (like a ball that we were playing with), I would just hold a treat to her nose and say "drop it." In order to get the treat, she HAD to drop the ball (which, of course, she would get back because we were playing with it). We did this with a lot of items where she would drop, treat, get the item back. Now I can ask from more of a distance and she'll just look up for a treat.

Have you run into any problems with barking at strangers? How have you dealt with that? (I started -- just this morning -- to ask people on the street to ask her to sit and then give her a treat.) Do you have any ideas? I want her to feel OK with looking at strangers and even interacting with them, just not barking or lunging or jumping on.

Thanks for the update!!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

She is doing so well! Do you have pictures?

I really like your idea of leave it when on walks! I need to try that tomorrow as every stick we pass he goes after...I still want him to be curious but now and then Ill give the leave it command and treat when he ignores it. Thanks!

Ha, I actually had the same thing happen with shake where for a couple of weeks he would just raise his paw when sitting to try and get one...all I did was ignore it when I didnt command it and over time he stopped doing it...but it was cute when he did

Also a great idea on drop! Another thing Ill try...

Ive heard that if the command was given and it wasnt enforced and might be losing its value to switch commands and train with that but dont let her ignore you? So maybe come instead of here or whatever you are using?

He doesnt bark at strangers at all and doesnt really lunge he will just walk up to them and want to be petted. In the past have you had him meet lots of people as part of socialization? I see where you mentioned what you are doing now with strangers but did she go to puppy class or meet people when 8-12 weeks or so?


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Yeah -- they are cute when trying to get a treat with a spontaneous shake -- especially the way she dips her head while she's doing it.

I'm going to be hyper-vigilant and careful with "come" and if she ignores it (it's not so much that she's ignored as she's needed a little tug on the leash to remind her to move), I'll switch words. Thanks for the tip! 

Juno is JUST 16 weeks. Part of the problem is that she was already 12 weeks when we got her (from a rescue). She had been living what sounded like a pretty active foster home for a week or so before that and then the "breeder's" house before that. 

She's been in puppy classes for the last three weeks -- almost since we've had her. I think that it would have been MUCH easier for her to behave around people if she'd had more socialization between 8 and 12 weeks, but I don't think it's TOO late. We've been introducing her to a lot of people (and she loves them) in our home and in my sister's home. Now that it's warming up (we're in Minnesota where it's going to be in the 30s in the next few days -- we consider that warm for February) we'll be able to take her places (like the U campus) where more people will be out and about. Hopefully that will get her used to being around strangers and help her calm down a little. (I think she's also getting used to the idea that people have a lot of different silhouettes depending on if they're in winter clothes or not!)


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Oh -- I've been trying to attach a picture to my profile, but it won't link for some reason! I'll try again soon.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I think that Come is the single most important command for any dog. If you have a strong recall, it can save their lives, get them out of mischief, and more. Second most important is Stay. I would work on these, and variations thereof, throughout whatever form of training you do now and in the future.

Here's a really cool way to train the recall, and I believe should be started as soon as the dog can see, and eat some sort of treat:

Remove all distractions including water. Everyone in the family (or very CLOSE friends, especially if you're grooming for protection later) has a handful of treats, and stands a good distance apart in the backyard. One person calls the dog with the "come" or "here" command. The INSTANT the dog arrives, give it the treat and praise verbally, and/or pet the dog. [Optional: Then call out someone else's name.] That person then does the same thing. Repeat, but do NOT let this get boring. 

Not only will the dog learn that coming to you is the best thing in the world, if you use the optional name-calling prior to someone else calling the dog, the dog will quickly learn the name of each family member. (This can be helpful and fun later when you tell him to go find members of the family, and kind of sets the stage for later finding just about anything and anyone.)

I'm sure you already know this, so just a friendly reminder that since this exercise teaches the dog to come to you, not be afraid to do so, and in fact, love to do so above and beyond anything else, you should never call the dog to you for reprimands, like "Come here. Bad dog, you know you should not have done xxxxx."

It is also extremely importatnt to end this exercise while the dog is still very enthusiastic and still looking for treats. Do NOT let the dog tire of this exercise. The primary handler of the dog should also be the last one to call the dog, if applicable, and dispense with lavish amounts of praise.

During this phase, I would never, ever chase the dog, or try to reach out and grab your dog, not even in fun. At least not for a while. This only triggers the instinct to run from you, even in fun, and at this point we do not want him to know he can evade you, even in fun, at least not now, because we're looking for the most solid recall.

This will help ingrain from a very early age that your Come command is associated with the utmost pleasure. I've been doing this with my pup since she was 9 weeks old. She's 7 months now, and when I call her she immediately stops what she's doing, even if she's playing with other dogs, and looks at me enthusiastically, and heads my way. Of course, there are still rare occasions when I have to proof the recall all the way to my feet a bit as she is still young, but I have to say that this is one the most effective exercises to get your dog to look immediately at you and head your way.

While this exercise can teach older dogs to come, too, from my experience, it seems to really "brain-wash" (in a good way) young pups to autonomically come your way without even thinking, whereas with older dogs it seems that they make the conscious decision to come based on the association with something good happening when they come, which is a very distinct and significant difference.

Love to hear your feedback if you try it.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Mr Leadfoot, Thanks for the tip!

My husband and I have done this between the two of us a few times -- unfortunately, it's just the two of us in our house! It works pretty well with just the two of us -- and we really only have to do it for a few minutes! I'm going to try to set it up next time we have some friends over or when we're at my sister's house.

I'll let you know how it goes with more people!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaYeah -- they are cute when trying to get a treat with a spontaneous shake -- especially the way she dips her head while she's doing it.
> 
> I'm going to be hyper-vigilant and careful with "come" and if she ignores it (it's not so much that she's ignored as she's needed a little tug on the leash to remind her to move), I'll switch words. Thanks for the tip!
> 
> ...


You have a great plan, just get her out now to meet as many people as she can and in as many different types of clothes as possible...never too late at all Even with my little guy the first couple of weeks I made sure I wore hats, hoodies, and other types of clothes around him...my gf thought I was nuts


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Great tip! Thanks....its also just the 2 of us and we have done it back and forth with great results...


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

I took Juno to the University Campus (here in Minneapolis -- it's a pretty big campus) this morning. It was a great way to expose her to a lot of people and to crowds in between classes. Some people stopped to pet her and others just ignored her. She sort of wanted to jump up and greet everyone -- but towards the end she was fine just sitting on the corner with me as people walked by. (I think she was pretty tired by then, which helped a lot.) We'll try to have regular trips to those types of places so that she gets used to just being around people on the streets (otherwise our neighborhood is pretty quiet).


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Very cool! Good girl Ditka got to meet a group of 8 young kids today at the bus stop and then did pretty well when the bus came with its size and sounds

Question...

What the best way to teach staying in the sit or down?

Thanks all!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Good boy!! I'm always sort of wary of how Juno's going to react to large, noisy objects like buses. Unfortunately, I think she'd just like to chase the school bus. She must thing it's prey.

I'm not really sure how I taught Juno to stay. I think I started with her on her leash -- put her in a sit while I was standing next to her. I told her stay and put my hand in front of her nose and then stepped away, if she started to break, I corrected her with a light tug on the leash and an "ah!" and put her back in the right spot. I just extended the amount of time each practice session and added more "complicated" stays - like me walking awqy from her with my back to her, walking behind furniture, dancing a little or moving in a strange way, or walking around her in a circle, including stepping over her body. Eventually she got it -- at least indoors with few distractions. I can walk away from her and go into the next room (just for a second!) and she won't break (although sometimes she'll slide from a sit into a down at the beginning of a "stay" -- with hardwood floors it's hard to tell whether she's just sliding or is confused.) We're working on extending the stay and doing it in other settings.

I now use the stay in more practical situations and I sort of wish I had started her in those situations. When I go to her crate, I put my hand up and tell her to stay and start to open the door. If she breaks before I tell her to, then I close the door again. It only took a few times for her to consistently wait for my signal. I also use the stay when I'm going through doors -- have her sit, stay, open the door (close it if she breaks), I walk through and then let her "come on" with a little pat to the side of my leg.

I'm sure I didn't teach it to her the best way and I'm sure that some people use "wait" differently from "stay" and she probably doesn't have the "neatest" stay but it's working for the time being. 

We're going to be doing more outdoor socializing now that it's going up to 45 degrees here!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks so much for that! Im not sure if most people have a stay command or if they teach their sit or down to be a stay until the dog is released? Ill have to check into that some more...

I guess Ive already been sort of teaching a stay from a sit, when putting down his food or drink bowl I make him sit first and a few times when Ive started to put it down and he stands I start again...now he makes it to 1/2 way to the floor or so...might just work on extending that

We do have puppy class tomorrow so Ill ask a bunch of questions and post them here...might help others as well.

Enjoy the weather, 70 here tomorrow in KC!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeThanks so much for that! Im not sure if most people have a stay command or if they teach their sit or down to be a stay until the dog is released? Ill have to check into that some more...


Some people indeed do use commands like sit and down with an implied stay, however, I believe you should always have a stay command, as well. This can be useful if you just want the dog to stay, even if he's standing up.



> Quote:I guess Ive already been sort of teaching a stay from a sit, when putting down his food or drink bowl I make him sit first and a few times when Ive started to put it down and he stands I start again...now he makes it to 1/2 way to the floor or so...might just work on extending that


See, there you go. Your dog obviously knows Sit, but gets up because he thinks he's done the command properly, which he indeed did. IMHO, at this point, he's just not sure of when he's allowed up from that position, and Stay would help him to understand that he should not get up because he's under a PROLONGED command, and will remove the confusion for him.

FWIW, I ALWAYS make my dog sit or down or bang, and stay there when I put the food bowl down. It sort of adheres to the Nothing in Life is Free theory, as well as teaches some self-control. I also sometimes even leave the room and come back and still have her in Stay, then even ignore her then, which I believe eventually results in a more reliable Stay because of the increased "pressure", which will come in very handy when she needs to stay under more high-pressure/high-stress situations.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Awesome, thanks so much Mr Leadfoot...Ive read many of your training posts and they make so much sense...I really appreciate it!

Ill keep chipping away with the little guy and keep making it fun for the both of us.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Went to his last puppy class this Saturday and worked on distraction focus and also standing. Standing was a bit of a struggle as he would leap from a sit to my hand...ow. But if I have the treat far enough out he does it well.

Wednesday he starts the next level of classes...really looking forward to it.

Drops went well with his buggy whip rag last night, for a treat he will drop anything

Did some more recall work, that went great as well.

Given my harness post in the other section Im going to now spend some more time on loose leash walking...I take him for mile long walks where I just let him check stuff out but now for part of the walk Ill make it focused on training.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

KC -- 

We just finished puppy class on Sunday and are starting level one on Tuesday. I'll be looking for your updates here!

Glad to here the drop it is going well. Juno's been doing "drop it" pretty consistently inside the house (it's outside in the big world that it's harder!) -- and then I read recently that you can (and maybe should?) have two commands: "drop it" for just releasing the object and "give it" for releasing it into your hand. The example that I read was that if your dog picks up a dead bird carcass, you don't necessarily want them dropping it into your hand -- whereas if you're playing fetch with a ball, you do want them to put it right in your hand. I'm debating whether I want to start to differentiate these two with Juno.

One of the suggestions that our trainer had was when you do the "drop it" and treat -- give the item back to the pup afterwards even if it's a really expensive pair of shoes (which, from experience, I know it takes a puppy at least five minutes to actually destroy -- just mouthing won't do too much damage). This apparently builds trust with the puppy and they don't associate "drop it" with something necessarily being taken away.

My husband and I have been doing recall while I'm cooking. It's sort of like a version of long distance puppy ping pong. I'll be in the kitchen with a bowl full of something really tasty (like small pieces of bacon or raw beef or avocado) and he'll be in the living room with another tasty treat (like chicken flavored baby food). We take turns calling her back and forth (but only for a few minutes). She's really into it -- which is great. We don't reward her if she comes without being called -- so a few times she's ended up standing in the dining room between the living room and kitchen, trying to watch both of us, waiting to see who calls her next. It's really fun and I think it's building a pretty good foundation for her recall. I think that one of the keys is that we keep those treats JUST for recall work so she knows when she comes she's going to get something really special. 

What was your harness post? We use a chest harness (on the suggestion of the trainer who said that using the flat collar too much will desensitize her) I looked around but couldn't find your post. What kind of collar or harness are you using or planning to use once she's older? Let me know how loose leash goes. We've been working on it for a few weeks now. She has her really good walks (minimal pulling but still lots of chances to sniff around) and her pretty bad walks (where she pulls a lot)... I'm hoping that it's just a matter of time.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Hey Rhena...

Juno is doing so well! GREAT idea about giving the pup back what you had them drop so they build the trust and are more open to dropping it...Im going to do that next time we work on it with his rag. We have a rag on the end of a buggy whip and take him out in the back yard and he chases it all over the place....great way to get in some exercise besides walking! We do off with that rag and for a treat he drops it great...Ive not yet started having him drop outside of a controlled environment yet. Good point about having the 2 commands but for me Im going to wait on that as he still has so much of the basic work to do that I want to keep it simple. But if you try it please let me know how it goes!

The class was cancelled Wed night, 15 minutes before it was supposed to start...grrrr, so tomorrow instead he is going to go with my g/f to puppy class so the 2 of them can bond a bit more. He sees her more as a littermate and him #2 so we are going to work on that a lot coming up. Then next week off to the next level of class.

Exactly on recall treats....we use liver when doing that as he loves them. We also use them when we come back up the stairs after being outside and now most of the time he walks back up them and comes into the house by himself.

The harness suggestions were a combo of training more so he doesnt pull but if I am going to get one to get one without the head correction. I think Im going to pick up a chest one just to have it and use it in combo with more training. On "fun" walks Ill use the chest harness and training for now with the flat. I must admit pretty much all of our walks have been for fun with our golden retriever so I need to hurry up and really get the ball rolling on loose leash...on the fun walks he can do pretty well but I want it in his head that he is the boss when walking. Once old enough Im going to use a prong collar with him for training and walking.

I found a cool video on stay work....going to start doing this over the weekend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PrqYsefi9Y

This week he has gotten stand down very well...stand from a sit I should say and not from a down.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaGlad to here the drop it is going well. Juno's been doing "drop it" pretty consistently inside the house (it's outside in the big world that it's harder!) -- and then I read recently that you can (and maybe should?) have two commands: "drop it" for just releasing the object and "give it" for releasing it into your hand. The example that I read was that if your dog picks up a dead bird carcass, you don't necessarily want them dropping it into your hand -- whereas if you're playing fetch with a ball, you do want them to put it right in your hand. I'm debating whether I want to start to differentiate these two with Juno.


To me, that's a personal choice thing. We use "give" to mean give up whatever you've got - it could mean release it to my hand if I'm reaching for it or actually have my hand on it, or drop it on the floor/ground, I don't really care. We use a Chuck-it to throw tennis balls, so I don't necessarily want it right in my hand anyway. But if you'd like two different commands, then go ahead and train it that way. 



> Quote:One of the suggestions that our trainer had was when you do the "drop it" and treat -- give the item back to the pup afterwards even if it's a really expensive pair of shoes (which, from experience, I know it takes a puppy at least five minutes to actually destroy -- just mouthing won't do too much damage). This apparently builds trust with the puppy and they don't associate "drop it" with something necessarily being taken away.


I wouldn't do this. I like to do lots of trading games with THEIR stuff so that when the time comes that puppy has something she's not supposed to have I can get it back by trading for a treat (or just happy praise) and it's not a big deal. So build the trust beforehand with games, and in the meantime manage the situation as much as possible to limit her access to things like shoes or your cell phone or the TV remote. I want her to learn that there are some things that are hers and some that are mine and that's just the way it is. I think giving your puppy back something she's not supposed to have in the first place could be confusing because at some point you're not going to be giving back that forbidden object, right? 

Great work on the recall game!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

[/quote] I wouldn't do this. I like to do lots of trading games with THEIR stuff so that when the time comes that puppy has something she's not supposed to have I can get it back by trading for a treat (or just happy praise) and it's not a big deal. So build the trust beforehand with games, and in the meantime manage the situation as much as possible to limit her access to things like shoes or your cell phone or the TV remote. I want her to learn that there are some things that are hers and some that are mine and that's just the way it is. I think giving your puppy back something she's not supposed to have in the first place could be confusing because at some point you're not going to be giving back that forbidden object, right? 

Great work on the recall game![/quote] 

It's funny that you said that because now that you mention it, we stopped doing this after a few times. We unconsciously focused on her just not getting the shoes or other "high value" items. Now she doesn't even go for the shoes at the front door (where she used to all the time) or the bottles and other containers under the sink (long story -- we don't have doors on those cabinets). It seems that this way, she's actually learning what she's allowed to touch and what she's not allowed to touch.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeHey Rhena...
> 
> Juno is doing so well! GREAT idea about giving the pup back what you had them drop so they build the trust and are more open to dropping it...Im going to do that next time we work on it with his rag. We have a rag on the end of a buggy whip and take him out in the back yard and he chases it all over the place....great way to get in some exercise besides walking! We do off with that rag and for a treat he drops it great...Ive not yet started having him drop outside of a controlled environment yet. Good point about having the 2 commands but for me Im going to wait on that as he still has so much of the basic work to do that I want to keep it simple. But if you try it please let me know how it goes!
> 
> ...


What is a "buggy whip"? Where do I find one? I'm always looking for ways to wear her out before a walk....

I HATED the chest harness at first because she was much less "controlled" on it than on the flat collar -- but I've gotten used to it. I'm just hoping that the trainer talks about how to switch back to the flat collar for walks. 

You inspired me to work on "stand" too. We're doing it from whatever position she's in. It's sort of slow going, though, because it's a fine line for Juno between being lured into the right position with a treat and "grabbing" inappropriately for the treat.... and it's hard to work on both of those things at the same time.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

I got mine at a horse supply/western store...its just a stick with a rope on the end...then I attach a white towel to the end and have him run and chase it while the sitck gives me control to make it go in circles or back and forth. You could probably do the same with just a rope with a rag on the end. Ditka goes NUTS for this and will tire himself out in a matter of minutes! Its awesome.

LOL, Ditka does the SAME thing with stand! Then I figured out the key was how far to put the treat in front of him to make him stand...too close and he just attacked it but far enough out in front and he was much calmer when he felt he couldnt "jump" to get it. I also would turn my hand to block the treat and after a few times he was back to being calm. Give it a shot


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Rhena Now she doesn't even go for the shoes at the front door (where she used to all the time) or the bottles and other containers under the sink (long story -- we don't have doors on those cabinets). It seems that this way, she's actually learning what she's allowed to touch and what she's not allowed to touch.


Awesome! Halo (she will be 14 weeks old on Sunday) is starting to get it too, I close us all in the office together a lot when I'm home because I can keep an eye on her much more easily in a small enclosed space than loose in the house. There are toys and bones on the floor, and the dogs can play together or chew a bone, or take a nap.

Since there are two computers, two printers, two calculators, a typewriter, two lamps, two phones, and several other computer accessories that plug in, there are a lot of cords under the desks. I HAD a bunch of catalogs under my desk that I hadn't gone through yet, and they helped to reduce access to some of those cords. She was so persistent about grabbing catalogs and dragging them around the room that I had to pick them up off the floor. But that meant that she had free access to a ton of power cords, and she liked the den-like atmosphere under the desks to hang out in, so we were constantly working on getting her to leave the cords alone. 

Just this week I noticed that lately she's been great about not trying to chew the cords. They DO get it eventually, sometimes it just seems like it takes forever! 

With stand you shouldn't need to be luring with food past the first lesson or two, use an empty hand to lure her up out of the sit or down, and then deliver the treat from the other hand. I love using food lures initially, but as soon as I can, I get the treat out of that hand because you don't want her to rely on the lure as a cue and only comply when she sees the food. Remember to keep the lure (or hand signal) low so that she doesn't have to jump up at it, and also deliver it quickly so she doesn't have time to sit or down again first.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Oh, and here's a toy that you can use like KC's buggy whip: http://www.chaseitpettoys.com/

I have one for Keefer but I haven't played with it much yet. Since he's older and has more training I use it to play off switch games. I whip the toy around for him to chase, then let him get it and tug a little. Then I tell him "give" and wait. When he gives the toy up he has to down and make eye contact and then I release him to "get it" again and start whipping the toy around. That's a little advanced for Halo since she doesn't have a solid give yet.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thats a great point about not always using the treat as a lure! I think Im at a point where I need to do that with my pup...thanks for mentioning it!

And yop, thats pretty much exactly like the buggy whip! Ditka LOVES it...tires him out very well too


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomOh, and here's a toy that you can use like KC's buggy whip: http://www.chaseitpettoys.com/
> 
> I have one for Keefer but I haven't played with it much yet. Since he's older and has more training I use it to play off switch games. I whip the toy around for him to chase, then let him get it and tug a little. Then I tell him "give" and wait. When he gives the toy up he has to down and make eye contact and then I release him to "get it" again and start whipping the toy around. That's a little advanced for Halo since she doesn't have a solid give yet.


Great! I've been looking for one of these (fruitlessly at all the big chain and local pet supply stores). I had rigged up a similar makeshift toy like this a while ago, but she destroyed it pretty quickly. I'm definitely going to order one of these!

Thanks for the tip on the "lure" versus "reward!"


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Rhena
> 
> 
> Cassidys Mom said:
> ...


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

I started working on his down/platz with no treat and its not going well so far...I should have started this sooner As you suggested Ill keep working on it and Im glad I read this as I dont want him to only obey when there is food!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Your trainer really should have stressed this. At some point you're going to start phasing out food rewards, at least for well established behaviors, so the initial step would be no lure, treat from the other hand, then no food on your person at all (treat from a dish on the countertop or a nearby shelf - you don't want the presence of a treat bag to become a cue either), then a variable reward, then just praise. With each new behavior you teach you'll want to reward heavily at first, but if your puppy is sitting immediately with a verbal command and has been for weeks, there's really no reason to keep giving him a treat each time, a simple "good boy" and/or a pat on the side is sufficient. 

But even with well established behaviors, any time you raise the criteria or change the circumstances, (generalizing to new locations, adding distractions, etc.), go back to rewarding heavily again if necessary, and even lure if he needs it. Just because he plants his butt immediately in your kitchen, with him facing you and you standing in front of him toe to toe, that doesn't mean he knows the sit command means to plant his butt when you're in the backyard, or when he's standing next to you, or you're sitting in a chair on on the floor, or when he's in the car.....


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You answered exactly the question I had! Juno's great at doing "sit" and "down" inside the house and even in the backyard with or without a treat -- but out on her walk it's almost as if she has not idea what I'm saying! I was reluctantly to reintroduce showing her to the treat when out on a walk since we were working on her responding even with no treats or treats on the counter (not on my person) and it seemed like backsliding to have to show her the treat to get her to sit on a walk. But, of course! As you explained, she can't necessarily generalize and she needs to learn that the sound "sit" means "put your butt on the ground" no matter the context even if it means treating heavily for a while! Thanks for all your expertise!

KC -- I'm really curious to hear about how your loose leash walking is going! Juno's working on that A LOT right now and she's getting MUCH better about not pulling (until we get close to home and she's like 'c'mon! I know where I'm going!'). Update here as your working on it -- I'd love to hear what is working and not working for Ditka!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I should have mentioned that the trainer had said a couple of times, try it with no treat, and he would do it once as he thought I probably had a treat...but the trainer didnt really stress it as she is quite overwhelmed in class Im going to finish the classes Ive paid for and contact another trainer for phase 2 as there is very little personal attention.

His sit is rock solid in a controlled place as you mentioned so I will right away start rewarding less and less with food there but keep it going in distracted areas. Ill also work more on the platz in the controlled environment with no treat as I think the only reason he goes down to the floor is he is following the food.

Thanks again...Ive learned the training is constant and ever changing but Im loving it!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

_KC -- I'm really curious to hear about how your loose leash walking is going! Juno's working on that A LOT right now and she's getting MUCH better about not pulling (until we get close to home and she's like 'c'mon! I know where I'm going!'). Update here as your working on it -- I'd love to hear what is working and not working for Ditka! _

Will do! So far its gone well as we have done a little in the basement to really get him started and my g/f was going to do some more with him on a walk today. Since we have another dog we have seen that our training walks will be done best at first with one of us and just Ditka...then over time add both of us and the other dog.

Sounds like Juno is WAY ahead of where we are with this but Ill keep updating the thread as I go with all we are working on. Id also love to hear more and more about how you are training loose leash.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaYou answered exactly the question I had! Juno's great at doing "sit" and "down" inside the house and even in the backyard with or without a treat -- but out on her walk it's almost as if she has not idea what I'm saying! I was reluctantly to reintroduce showing her to the treat when out on a walk since we were working on her responding even with no treats or treats on the counter (not on my person) and it seemed like backsliding to have to show her the treat to get her to sit on a walk. But, of course! As you explained, she can't necessarily generalize and she needs to learn that the sound "sit" means "put your butt on the ground" no matter the context even if it means treating heavily for a while!


Absolutely, there is nothing wrong with giving her a little help until she's really solid under all circumstances. I would occasionally still lure Dena into a sit with a treat at agility class when she was two years old because it was SO distracting that that was the only way to get her attention in that environment. And she had been in perfect immediate compliance to the sit command in all other circumstances since puppyhood. At 4 months old she was the demo dog in her puppy class for a generalized sit - the trainer stood on a chair and gave her the command and she plopped her butt on the floor. She turned her back on Dena and she plopped her butt on the floor.

A lot of times people will start threads wondering why their dog suddenly seems to not understand a command that they KNOW. But the thing is, they don't know. They know it contextually, but the context has changed. We think it's the same, sit is just sit, right? But the dog sees it differently. That's one of those things that make perfect sense once it's explained to us, but don't come naturally to humans. We have to learn to think like a dog. 

When you're transitioning to a hand signal from a food lure, and to also being able to use a verbal cue without a hand signal, be sure to give your dog some time to figure it out before offering help. I like to wait at least 5 seconds after the cue before resorting to the lure or the hand signal, depending on what you're working on, and the first time they get it without help, HUGE reward - treat, treat, treat, very enthusiastic praise, wow what an amazing dog! A genius!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

You might also want to be aware that sometimes dogs will not even respond to treats when on a walk, depending upon the circumstances. For example, alot of times my current dog doesn't care about treats any more when enjoying something going on outdoors.

This often happens when she's focused on something else. That's why it's important to have them know you, your voice and the commands (as Cassidys Mom has pointed out).

I just wanted to point this out so that you can start really starting to emphasize rewards other than treats. Another thing you might want to consider is that you probably don't want them to be SO food-motivated that food in itself becomes a distraction that can be tought to overcome, such as if you encounter people BBQ-ing or something similar.

So, using food to motivate them to learn something new is fine, but once they know that new something, it's smarter to transition to other forms of rewards, such as praise.

In fact, praise from YOU is probably the best movitator of all, because a toy can often be used to undermine the protective aspects of the dog. An example of this would be if someone with harm in mind approaches and the dog moves into protective mode. I've seen firsthand that if the stranger throws a ball the dog cares more about the ball and forgets what he was doing, protecting you. Sure, this might be an exageration, but I used it only to make a point.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootYou might also want to be aware that sometimes dogs will not even respond to treats when on a walk, depending upon the circumstances. For example, alot of times my current dog doesn't care about treats any more when enjoying something going on outdoors.
> 
> This often happens when she's focused on something else. That's why it's important to have them know you, your voice and the commands (as Cassidy'sMom has pointed out).
> 
> I just wanted to point this out so that you can start really starting to emphasize rewards other than treats. The other thing is that you don't want them to be SO food-motivated that food in itself becomes a distraction that can be tought to overcome, such as if you encounter people BBQ-ing or something similar.


I had a GREAT lesson about this this weekend. We took Juno to play with a friend's dog in their backyard. This other dog is VERY food motivated, apparently. Once he knew I had treats in my pockets, we was completely fixated on my pockets. Juno kept trying to get him to play and he would just sit in front of me, staring at my pockets, ignoring Juno's pleas to play. I finally had to empty my pockets inside the house (I felt like a high school kid busted for drugs -- emptying out all the different little baggies) and there was still only a SLIGHT improvement with the other dog's level of distraction. He'd play with Juno when I was out of the area, but as soon as I was back he was like, "Food? Food?"

Your point is well taken -- I've been sometimes using just praise or play for a reward, but I can probably start to cut back on the food rewards more aggressively -- especially around the house. I think I can probably start to do a string of commands in different rooms with one food reward at the end rather than rewarding each response to each command.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_Pike_KC -- I'm really curious to hear about how your loose leash walking is going! Juno's working on that A LOT right now and she's getting MUCH better about not pulling (until we get close to home and she's like 'c'mon! I know where I'm going!'). Update here as your working on it -- I'd love to hear what is working and not working for Ditka! _
> 
> Will do! So far its gone well as we have done a little in the basement to really get him started and my g/f was going to do some more with him on a walk today. Since we have another dog we have seen that our training walks will be done best at first with one of us and just Ditka...then over time add both of us and the other dog.
> 
> Sounds like Juno is WAY ahead of where we are with this but Ill keep updating the thread as I go with all we are working on. Id also love to hear more and more about how you are training loose leash.


Juno does have a few weeks on Ditka! We work on the basics for heel for at least a little bit on most walks. Sometimes I switch from her harness to her flat collar (sometimes I just leave her on the harness -- I should probably be more consistent about this!), have her sit on my left, and then start walking and say "heel." She'll follow along for a few steps, I say, "Yes" and drop a treat in her mouth (we're working on her not grabbing them with her little alligator teeth!). We've slowly worked up to her being able to go (at the VERY most) two blocks this way with treats spaced out every ten or so steps. 

When we're not heeling, my main expectation is that she not pull on the leash. She's getting pretty good about not pulling out in front. If she does, I stop and wait. Eventually she figures out that she has to loosen the leash by either walking back to me or sitting and looking at me. She needs some reminders every so often (and especially close to home, as I mentioned). Someone in the forum (Cassidy's mom, maybe?) suggested walking in a big open area and changing directions a lot so that she learns that she has to pay attention to me to find out where to go. We've done this a few times and it helped quite a bit, I think. Even when she's out in front of me (which I don't mind as long as she's not pulling) she'll look back at me every so often just to "check in."

The bigger issue now is she lags behind and just wants to sniff something and not keep up. I basically keep moving and she'll come along too eventually. Sometimes, I turn back to her and cheerfully say, "c'mon" and move quickly and tap my leg if I have a free hand.

The next big thing we have to work on is her not crossing from left to right right in front of me -- just so the leash doesn't get tangled up and so that I don't accidentally step on her. I only reward her for being on my left and when she wander towards the right, I say, "ah!" and give her a tug back to the left side. 

My DREAM is to one day be able to walk to the coffee shop, have her sit outside while I get a cup (leashed, of course), and then walk back without spilling the coffee. It seems like it's probably a REALLY long way off right now (our walks are pretty much a continuous banter of "yes!" good girl!" "ah!" "leave it!" "c'mon!" "good girl!" -- my neighbors probably think I'm crazy), but we all need to think big, right?!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaYour point is well taken -- I've been sometimes using just praise or play for a reward, but I can probably start to cut back on the food rewards more aggressively -- especially around the house. I think I can probably start to do a string of commands in different rooms with one food reward at the end rather than rewarding each response to each command.


Yep, we're already linking two or three commands for a treat in our second week of puppy class. And as long as she's doing well in the house there's no need to be treating every single repetition, you can go to a variable reward system, either totally random, or to shape, where you'd reward the best responses - the straightest sit, the fastest down, the speediest recall, etc. And all of that should be paired with praise so that when you do phase out food rewards the praise remains. But having those rewards initially, along with the praise, helps make praise relevant to the dog, give it meaning, rather than just random words. 

And definitely use play rewards too, (we require a sit or down on command and eye contact until release before throwing a ball at the park), and real life rewards. Sit and eye contact before coming in the house, before going for a walk, before getting in the car for a ride. No need for food rewards under those circumstances because the activity that follows is the reward. 

I never worry about food becoming a distraction because I always train, right from the very beginning, that the way to get the food is to ignore the food and focus on me instead. The more food motivated your dog is, the faster they'll pick this up. Many people spit treats during training to get their dogs to focus on them, and there is nothing wrong with that, but I'm not coordinated to try it, and besides, I don't want them to look at my face solely because food may be flying out of it at any moment. I'd rather be able to show them food and have them immediately look up at me. 

It was not me that talked about walking in different directions, it was another mod - Jakoda (Diane) maybe? I posted a link to a technique where you train the dog that slight pressure on the collar means to move into it, relieving the pressure, rather than pulling against it. Haven't had a chance to try this much yet, but I will be working on it with Halo. I think it's great that you're giving Juno lots of feedback during walks, many people don't do that, and I have a heck of a time getting my husband to mark good behavior AT ALL, much less use the commands that I'm working on with her.







If she puts her paws up on the couch and he tells her off, but when she gets off he says nothing, how does she know that she did good? How is she going to learn what the command means? So much easier to train dogs than husbands, lol!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Rhena
> ...


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomSo much easier to train dogs than husbands, lol!


Hey! I resemble that remark!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomSo much easier to train dogs than husbands, lol!
> ...


Not to offend MrLeadFoot -- by my husband is the same way. He doesn't reinforce what I teach as often as I do and then he wonders why she doesn't listen when he tells her to sit outside or in some other setting. 

The other night I pointed out that his tone of voice is the same whether he's giving a command, reprimanding, or praising. I know it's hard to men to use a high-pitched praise-y voice-- but of course now he exaggerates it just to get MY attention. (and I can't help but making it a self rewarding behavior by laughing each time he does it!)


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Oh yeah -- I forgot to ask: Cassidy'sMom, are you using the "silky leash" technique? If not, what are you using? I'd love to see updates on how it goes. 

I started VERY initial silky leash with Juno -- but just in the bathroom. It's hard for me to tell whether she's getting it or not.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I haven't done much leash work with Halo yet, but that's the way I'm going to teach it. At home I train off leash, and I've been working on having her follow next to me in heel position and sitting automatically when I stop, and she's doing REALLY well! I can do right and left turns, and even circles and figure eights, and in the house and outside in the side yard she just naturally looks up at me most of the time. I expect that will change once we get out in the big wide world with so much more going on, but for now, she's very attentive, which is nice.

She just got her 3rd series of shots a week ago, and she gets bordatella tomorrow, so it's time to start getting her out on leash walks more. On the few times we did leash work I did a modified version of the silky leash technique, I didn't start at the very beginning as in the video, but I used the same basic concept. If she starts to get ahead of me, I back up and call her towards me, which will put pressure on the leash, and as she moves towards me, that pressure is naturally relieved, so it's sort of the same idea. And when she gets to me, I pivot so instead of me walking backwards with her coming towards me, we're walking in the opposite direction that we were originally, with her next to me. 

I'm also going to use ideas from this video that Jack (Jasper) posted recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6bX1zq5HBg&feature=related

I've tried it at home with Keefer a few times, and it does work. I couldn't start at the beginning by sitting somewhere because he's got such a strong default behavior of sitting or downing and staring at me that I couldn't get him to relieve pressure on the leash no matter how long I waited - he was like a statue! I also did some opposition reflex work with him on down stays at the park a year ago, where you pull on the leash to proof a stay, so he's been conditioned to not break and move towards the pulling, but to hold firm. So I skipped ahead to where you stand up and start to move around, and he did get the idea then. If you can't tell if Juno is getting it, you might jump ahead a step and try doing it in motion instead of stationary. 

BTW, I'm Debbie.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Rhena
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> ...


No offense taken at all, I was just joking.

But, you have it easy. Try being the HUSBAND trying to teach the WIFE. Holy smoke, wives HATE when husbands are right! I now have a double-wide crate, for those times when she sends me to the doghouse, with a "Honey, you know what to do now, don't you? CRATE!"


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI haven't done much leash work with Halo yet, but that's the way I'm going to teach it. At home I train off leash, and I've been working on having her follow next to me in heel position and sitting automatically when I stop, and she's doing REALLY well! I can do right and left turns, and even circles and figure eights, and in the house and outside in the side yard she just naturally looks up at me most of the time. I expect that will change once we get out in the big wide world with so much more going on, but for now, she's very attentive, which is nice.
> 
> She just got her 3rd series of shots a week ago, and she gets bordatella tomorrow, so it's time to start getting her out on leash walks more. On the few times we did leash work I did a modified version of the silky leash technique, I didn't start at the very beginning as in the video, but I used the same basic concept. If she starts to get ahead of me, I back up and call her towards me, which will put pressure on the leash, and as she moves towards me, that pressure is naturally relieved, so it's sort of the same idea. And when she gets to me, I pivot so instead of me walking backwards with her coming towards me, we're walking in the opposite direction that we were originally, with her next to me.
> 
> ...


Debbie (nice to meet you!) That's exactly what I was running into with Juno! Put her in a small room with just me, the leash and a bag of treats and she just sits and looks at me, waiting patiently. EVENTUALLY she'd start to move -- but only reluctantly and I think she was really pretty confused that I didn't want her just to sit and look. I'll try what you said about moving her into a bigger space with more movement. Her default is to sit and look -- but it's not SO strong that she won't move around in a bigger space. 

I think I should do more of what you're doing inside with the off leash heel... I don't necessarily want her to be in a strict heel the entire time I'm walking her -- but it would be really great to have her doing it for longer and longer stretches.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I don't aim for strict heel position all the time either, heck, I'm just happy if they're not dragging me down the street!!!







My aim is for loose leash walking most of the time, with occasional short periods of heeling on command. Since I don't do leash walks except during training classes (and for training purposes, it's just not enough exercise for a GSD anyway), I'm not very close to that goal!







That's why I'm going to start early with Halo and try and stick with it - I can utilize her natural desire as a puppy to stay close and follow me to teach and reinforce heel position off leash in a low distraction environment. Where I dropped the ball with Keefer is I failed to followup sufficiently with leash training outdoors in favor of trips to the off leash park - way more fun!

There are times when it's nice to have them stay right next to you, such as on a busy sidewalk or through crowds, but it's really hard for dogs to heel for long periods of time (it's BORING!) and I have no need to have them watch me the entire time either, it's just nice when they actually notice you're there on the other end of the leash, pay attention to where you're going, and look at you occasionally rather than tune you out completely. I use "let's go" for loose leash walking to distinguish it from walking in heel position, and I'll often stop and wait for a sit and eye contact, and then release to "go sniff".


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Rhena
> ...


Tell me about it! There really is no way to tell your g/f that she isnt doing something right when it comes to the dog We have had many chats about the best way for us to handle this without it becoming a source of fighting for us. Since I enjoy all this research we agreed Ill take the lead and help instruct her but she is also going to take turns taking him to class so she can learn and the pup and her can bond more.

We have had a few times though where I point something out she isnt doing right and it got a little heated


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Off is now moving up the priority scale









As he is growing he is now all over the counters, us, and the baby gate...until now we had just been putting him down and saying off but after reading above it makes sense that there needs to at least be a verbal reward for off...we are going to start that right away instead of just using the word.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeWe have had many chats about the best way for us to handle this without it becoming a source of fighting for us.


I like your choice of words, here... "chats". Did you use that word because she was looking over your shoulder when you wrote it? Huh? Huh? C'mon, tell the truth.










> Quote:We have had a few times though where I point something out she isnt doing right and it got a little heated


OK, so maybe we can learn something here. What "techniques" does SHE use to diffuse such "hyper-focus" situations?


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

"Off" can be quite the challenge, can't it? How old is your pup now? Mine is 7 months.

I can't believe how many articles are written about this very subject, whether they're masked under "jumping up" or other terms. The thing is that all the articles are the same. Ignore the dog for jumping up and praise only when sitting. Yeah, right! Like I have months of time to get this to be reliable. In mere WEEKS, with a dog the likes of a GSD, those weeks can mean an easy extra 20 lbs. or more, and another 6 inches in length/height, you know what I mean? I can't afford to wait while my dog hits 75 lbs. to get "off" to be understood by ignoring, let alone be completely reliable!

And, we all know that even if they don't mean to touch you when they're bouncing around, even a single toenail of their monster paws(ok, CLAWS) can rip a brand-new sweater in one swipe if that toenail gets caught. Ask me how I know, and I'll show you the scars my WIFE subsequently gave me when it happened to her!







Yep, it was all MY fault because I didn't train the dog properly. In reality, it was my fault for not training my WIFE properly.









Uh-oh, I think I hear my wife coming now. Shhhhh!







Uh-oh...


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Chat...well chat-like once she calmed down! Ha. And she doesnt need to look over my shoulder...she has some sort of ESP and will know about this post by the time I get home!

A comment of "this is my dog too" usually makes me relax about raising the perfect dog, trained in the perfect way. And she is right...Im the overly focused type who needs to relax. A human GSD?


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_Pike
> 
> Chat...well chat-like once she calmed down! Ha. And she doesnt need to look over my shoulder...she has some sort of ESP and will know about this post by the time I get home!


Yes! How in the world do they do that?!



> Quote:A comment of "this is my dog too" usually makes me relax about raising the perfect dog, trained in the perfect way.


Maybe it's because you're not imprisoned yet...er, sorry... MARRIED yet. When that happens, the quote changes to, "It's YOUR dog, so you better..."











> Quote:And she is right...


I KNEW she was standing right there!











> Quote:Im the overly focused type who needs to relax. A human GSD?


That's a GOOD one, 'cause my wife thinks I'm just like OUR dog!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

LOL! Nope...but her ESP will read this post later so I have to type that









She does keep me in line with the dog pretty well though, I overdo everything.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Seriously, I overdo everything, too. I think everyone on this forum does, that's why we're on here. Only a certain type of person can raise a GSD well.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_Pike
> A comment of "this is my dog too" usually makes me relax about raising the perfect dog, trained in the perfect way. And she is right...Im the overly focused type who needs to relax. A human GSD?


I'm absolutely the same way! Must be something about GSDs that attracts "type A" personality. I'm already taking grief from my family about how only I would need to raise the "perfect dog." We're a long way from there!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootSeriously, I overdo everything, too. I think everyone on this forum does, that's why we're on here. Only a certain type of person can raise a GSD well.


Oops, missed this MrLF. Jinx.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Yesterday morning Juno had a really great, long walk. Of course, she pulled a little -- but not too much and she seemed to remember. She was even on the left side most of the time. She even timed the walk so that a reward was some off-leash play with her friend Olive. I was feeling great 'cause it was like, "Wow, all these slow walks are finally paying off!"

Then last night my husband took her on a walk and said it was terrible. She was pulling all over the place. He said that he had to "be a tree" about a million times and they only went around two blocks. Sometimes I think that my husband's standards might be different from mine....

Sure enough this morning on the walk to and from the vet, she was pulling all over the place! Ergh.

I'm sure that these sorts of set backs are normal. (Or, well, please tell me these set backs are normal.) Two steps forward, one step back, right?

We're going to do some more open field walking, changing directions so that she remembers that she need to watch us when she walks.... but if anyone has any more tips (or just simply "yes, steps backwards sometime happen in training"), I'd love to hear them!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Unfortunately, it's normal when the consistency between multiple handlers is lacking.

The other day, I took my 12 year old son to the park to work and play with the dog. The goal was to teach him more about how to work and play with the dog in a manner that would both help him bond with the dog, as well as earn respect from the dog.

Although I stood a good distance from them and tried to be as still as possible, the first few times he issued a command that required the dog to be near him, like a heel or front, etc., she would immediately come to me and complete the command. I was surprised, flattered, AND confused. Now, what the heck was I supposed to do? Scold her? No, because she did do the commands, she just didn't do them near him.

So, I explained to my son what was going on, and he understood, and we'd try again, and I would have to give him suggestions to encourage her to look to him and not to me, but the more I spoke, of course, the more it made her aware that I was involved. And, of course, the more I had to assure my son that the dog DID still love him. It was a total catch-22, but it wasn't because of his inconsistency, either.

So, I took over, did very short obedience work, then released her for some fetch. I then gave him control of the fetch and moved about 20 yards away. I had him intersperse some obedience into the fetch game, and the dog soon caught on. Not only did it teach them both how to interact with each other better, resulting in some real fun for them, it was very heartwarming for me to see and experience their success.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

VERY normal. Remember...just a baby/puppy. Steps forward, steps back...the key is to keep the average change in a positive direction over time.

Hang in there.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootUnfortunately, it's normal when the consistency between multiple handlers is lacking.
> 
> The other day, I took my 12 year old son to the park to work and play with the dog. The goal was to teach him more about how to work and play with the dog in a manner that would both help him bond with the dog, as well as earn respect from the dog.
> 
> ...


This is a GREAT illustration of how two handlers can at first confuse the pup -- and then how to fix the problem! You have SUCH self control to step aside and let your son take charge. (Sometimes it's hard for me to not comment when my husband is working with Juno! But I definitely don't want to undermine his authority.) During a recent training session, every time he said, "Watch me," she looked at me -- same feelings: flattered, confused, surprised. Great idea to integrate the play and the obedience to help them bond. I should suggest the same thing to my husband so that his entire relationship isn't based around the evening walk and morning trip outside!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeVERY normal. Remember...just a baby/puppy. Steps forward, steps back...the key is to keep the average change in a positive direction over time.
> 
> Hang in there.


Thanks, KC! We worked on her looking at dogs from a distance at the park today -- and then focusing on me. It's still a pretty far distance -- but it feels good to follow up the bad walk with something successful...


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Yup, improvement is not going to be linear


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Juno had her first OB Level I class last night. (She finished her puppy class last week.) She did pretty well. Other dogs are a HUGE distraction for her so I basically had to sit with her the entire time (the trainer talked and demo'd a fair amount) and just have her quietly watch me and feed her treats continuously. We worked on sit, down, stand, and "watch me." I'm glad that those were all things she had already learned and this was just a chance to "proof" in a more distracting environment and also with my husband. I think it would have been TOO much for her to learn new stuff.

One of the rules of the class is no staring (for the dogs -- not the people!) and the next dog over is a husky who LOVED to stare. Between a GSD and a husky, I was working pretty constantly to keep Juno focused on me and not staring at the other dog -- even so, she barked and went for her a few times. We'll have to not sit near Misha next time!

An hour of self restraint is a little long for her so by the end she was a cranky and got bitey with me -- which hasn't happened for a few weeks. It was totally disconcerting at first. The first few nips, I asked my husband to take her outside and, sure enough, she had to poop. (Thanks to the conversation on this forum, it was the first thing I thought of!)

She stayed bitey and kind of wound up after the trip outside, though. I think it was the self restraint for an hour combined with the fact that she had had her vaccinations that morning and was exhausted. (She passed out right away in the car.) The trainer came over and suggested that we keep the training really lively. It worked like a charm! (I'm sure every week, we'll end up being the team that's all loud and high-pitched and bouncing around.)

When we finally got home, she went straight for the water bowl. Duh!! She usually looks to me to make sure she has water and I think the fact that she was thirsty only contributed to the bitey-ness and inability to focus at the end. There is a water bowl in the class -- but it's across the room from where we were and didn't enter this foolish handlers head in spite of all the signals Juno was throwing our way. Next time we're going to be sure to bring a bowl and a bottle in case we can't sit near the water! (That way she's also less likely to pick something up, I suppose.)

It seems like it's still just the beginning of getting to know our pup and her personality and how to manage it and get the most enjoyment without hitting my head against a wall....! (Oh, and also to train ourselves to do things like bring water for the pup!)

The one thing that I'm kind of bummed about is there wasn't a chance for dog socialization or play. Maybe that's just a puppy class thing... there were a fair number of puppies in the class, but it sounded like the trainer is more used to having mostly adults in her class.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

KC -- I meant to say that I'm going to be really interested to hear how your first OB classes go when they start!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Its crazy how similar our pups act in class...except last week Ditka was all about playing with a Boxer and not a Husky

One thing about the water, for me personally I would for sure bring your own bowl and water instead of letting her use the community bowl. Sounds like that is what you are planning to do.

Ditka went to his first OB class last Wed with my g/f so they could "train the trainer" and also so they could bond a bit more. There was only one other dog in the class and from what it sounds like it went well and they mostly reinforced and then worked on some stays. Truth be told we arent really happy with this trainer anymore and are trying to quickly use up the classes we already paid for...so we are going twice a week and are on the hunt for a new trainer for the OB classes. Our first longer term goal is to get him to pass the AKC good citizens class.

We do have some promising leads so Ill continue to update here.

Last night we did more reinforcement and I strung some commands together before treating this time. Went well. Then we went in the basement and I just worked on letting him walk next to me on the left by placing treats down and over time increasing the distance between treats until at the end I was able to hold one chest high and he would walk the length of the basement on the left while looking up at me. Next time Ill do some more of this but attach his leash so he gets used to it.

OB class tonight if they dont cancel

Sigh. The biggest pain point right now is counter jumping when we are making our food or getting his ready. Up until now we have just been saying OFF and leading him back to the floor. This was beyond not working So with what I read yesterday now with the OFF he gets verbal praise when he gets down. Ill continue to do this. The trainer in the past suggested throwing a treat down when he jumped up and clicking and praising when he would go down...but to me it would seem that by doing this he would just figure out jump up = treat thrown on floor?

Any other suggestions for counter jumping? He isnt too bad when it comes to jumping on us.

Thanks all.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Oh -- I didn't realise that your class was a Level I and not a puppy class! Ditka sure is advanced!

Good luck finding a better class and trainer. Other than the lack of play time, I'm pretty happy with our trainer. We'll just have to go to their extra play sessions. 

Nice work on the basement walking! Sounds like Ditka is piecing it together pretty quickly. 

We're going to be doing similar things in terms of stringing commands together this week -- especially doing different combinations of sit, down, stand in different sequences and in different locations. 

We're having the same problems with the jumping (not so much on us -- although she'll occassionally jump on us and then get down and sit like "oops, I forgot!"). We'll say "off" and then when her feet hit the floor, praise and treat. She's gotten a LITTLE better about the baby gate, but not so much with the couch. She rarely does the counter -- and then it's just when we're in the other room, as if she knows that it'll get our attention (although once she did get a few licks of butter!). I'd LOVE to hear any tips of teaching them to STAY off the counters -- not just get off once they're up. 

We'd love to do Good Citizen -- but I'm hoping it's on the road to becoming a therapy dog. It's hard to say whether she'll have the temperament for it just yet....



Ergh.. a boxer! Man, those guys can roughhouse!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

A therapy dog, thats GREAT! Just from what Ive heard about her from your posts I can see that being a good fit for her...she seems very sweet. Ditka on the otherhand Im starting to realize might be a schutzhund dog after all...I think he is going to need that outlet when I see his drive with the rag and his cockiness and attitude

Ill let you know how class goes tonight...they better have it so I can get these done with them!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

And Ive never seen D act like that with another dog but he and that Boxer wanted to go at it...and I dont think in a friendly way!!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeAny other suggestions for counter jumping? He isnt too bad when it comes to jumping on us.
> 
> Thanks all.


I absolutely have a suggestion on this. Oh, wait, seems like MY methods for training have chastised on this forum as of late, so let me preface this by saying, "I am not suggesting you try this, but if you do, please know that you do so at your own risk."

Now that that's out of the way, here's what I do when feeding, which, incidentally, I posted on another topic on which someone asked the exact same thing you did, entitled Jumping Up:

Here's what I do for feeding which results in the dog NEVER even trying to get to their food bowl on the counter.

I make her sit and stay while I prepare the food. This includes opening the pantry door to get her food. Then, when it's ready I call her to a different spot, then issue the sit-stay, down-stay, or bang-stay command, changing them up often enough so that she never knows what's coming, which prevents her from doing "anticipatory" obedience.

I put the bowl down, make her wait, sometimes a short while, sometimes extended, which naturally invokes the "look at me" behavior, as well as teaches extended stays, even under pressure. Sometimes, I walk around a bit, and even leave the room and come back. Then, I release her, and don't need to reward her because the food itself is the reward.

She is 7 months old and has never once even attempted to jump up on the counter to get her food. Instead she tries like heck to behave. In fact, this process has resulted in her act of begging as being as obedient as possible instead. You gotta love it.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

MrLF

These are great ideas. We similarly expect and have Juno sit away from her food container and wait in a sit until we're ready to feed her. She will sit patiently. We have her "work" for her first few handfuls of food and then sit and "watch me" with her bowl on the floor. We then give her the cue "take it" when she can have the food. Even before we started doing this, she's always been very respectful around food. For us, our bigger issue is her jumping on the couch (just her paws) or on the baby gate when she's in the kitchen and we're not. She's learning that the more effective thing (to get attention, to be let out of the kitchen or to get treats) to do is sit next to the baby gate. Lately she's put her paws on the counter while we're not in the room with her (we can hear her do it). 

Will preparing her food, leaving it on the counter and leaving her in there alone in a sit stay help keep her from jumping on the counter? Any suggestions for the couch? Similarly put her in a sit stay in front of the couch and reward her for sitting there?

Seems like what you're getting at is perhaps teaching a general attitude of respect and asking permission before she can get what she needs or wants...


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Let me add some food for thought (pun intended). We often try to "cure" things, all of us do, even the so-called professional trainers. Sometimes, you need to step back, WAY back, and if you step back far enough, you can sometimes (it's hard) get yourself to think about trying to "condition" the dog, rather than train it. And, to do this, you need to get into the psychology of what makes a dog do what he does, sometimes termed motivation, but more importantly, if you can break all this down into the very steps that lead up to a behavior, you can then possibly alter one of the step and change an outcome completely. Call it reprogramming conditioning, if you will.

For example, in this case, the reason the dog jumps up for his food bowl to begin with is because he naturally wants to get to it to eat, right? And, he gets rewarded for it by getting to the food.

I mean, step back and look at this natural act and result. If you put the food bowl down, and he charges to it, and eats, he's just conditioned himself to know that if he charges to the bowl, he's rewarded.

Now, imagine if you had a contraption, say a platform with a spring and pulley which when the dog stepped close to the bowl, the bowl would be whisked up 6 feet, out of his reach. What would the dog do? His immediate reaction would be to look up at the bowl, right? His next step would probably be to jump for the bowl. If the bowl is high enough, he can't reach it, but if he's hungry he's going to try and think of different things. At some point, her will sit and look up, if only for a second.

Now, what if the moment he sat, the bowl came down to within reach? But, as soon as he moved from the sit position, it went back up. While he may not immediately figure out that the bowl only comes down when he sits, if the pattern were repeated, the dog would surely eventually know that if he sits, the bowl will come down.

While this may sound really obvious, the point is the dog is really teaching himself, right? Sure the contraption helps, but he is really doing things on his own to figure out how to get the reward.

So, in the case of me making my dog sit, or lie down or play dead and stay until I release her, while the result is a dog that won't jump up for her food or knock someone over when her bowl is being put down, know that the method I decribed in the post above may not stop the dog for going after food in general that's left on your kitchen counter.

But, if you step back and break things down into little steps, you can come up with something that will work to help you teach your dog to not jump up on the counters at all.

FWIW, the biggest fear I have, and have always had, would be for a dog to jump up and accidentally knock over boling water or something, right onto its own face.

Now, while some people practice avoidance, I believe that only education and training will reduce the possibility of it happening (I say reduce, because you can never really completely eliminate). I mean, even if you gate the dog out of the kitchen during cooking times (avoidance), there's bound to be some scenario where the dog ends up in the kitched during cooking, even if only for a brief period, until you remove him again. Like, if something unexpected happens, like the Fed Ex guy rings the doorbell, and you open the gate to rush to the door because a new puppy is being delivered(ok, reaching here, but you get the point), and you forget to close the gate behind you. Upon your return to the stove, you find your dog in the kitchen.

OK,quite a verbose post, but the point is that sometimes it's easier to think about what causes an action and reprogramming behavior that causes an action, rather than trying to correct a behavior that's already occurred, does that make sense?

Oh, and yes, some people might think it's old school thinking, but you know what? Just because it's nothing new, it doesn't mean it can't be BETTER than something new. Kind of like the paperless office concept. Just because we have computers, and paper and pen have been around forever, doesn't mean paper and pen is ever going to be replaced by computer technology. It just isn't practical to think so. There are times when it's better to have a paper and pen.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rhena check your PMs! (little flashing envelope thingy next to "My Stuff" at the top of the page)


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeA therapy dog, thats GREAT! Just from what Ive heard about her from your posts I can see that being a good fit for her...she seems very sweet. Ditka on the otherhand Im starting to realize might be a schutzhund dog after all...I think he is going to need that outlet when I see his drive with the rag and his cockiness and attitude
> 
> Ill let you know how class goes tonight...they better have it so I can get these done with them!


The things that right now Juno has going for her in terms of being a therapy dog is that she loves people... she'll go right up to most people for a pet (and pretty quickly got over her stranger barking thing after we took her to crowded areas a few times). She's not at all skittish around loud or new sounds... in general she doesn't scare easily (other than dark-colored inanimate objects -- which we're working on!).

What we have to work on? It's a pretty funny conundrum. On the one hand, she's probably too attached to me and handlers need to be able to leave their dog in someone else's hands for brief periods of time to become a therapy dog. I'm hoping that she can become more and more used to being away from me. The other side is that she's SO curious and alert that sometimes she has a hard time focusing on me.... I think it's going to be an on-going thing of doing obedience and focus exercises with her in all sorts of new places all the time.... plus burning off all that energy with lots of walks and games!

I have SUCH respect for schutzhund dogs and their handlers. Such discipline and focus! I'm sure Ditka and you will make a great team between his drive and your discipline and patience!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaAn hour of self restraint is a little long for her so by the end she was a cranky and got bitey with me -- which hasn't happened for a few weeks. It was totally disconcerting at first. The first few nips, I asked my husband to take her outside and, sure enough, she had to poop. (Thanks to the conversation on this forum, it was the first thing I thought of!)


I had that happen too - Dena was usually great in puppy class, and one night she would just not pay attention and the trainer suggested she might need to potty. Never thought of it myself! So I took her out, and sure enough, she peed AND pooped.

And in her last day of Puppy 2 she was also really distracted, and after having a rock solid stay, she broke a couple of times. Three days later we noticed the first drops of blood on the floor - she was going into heat!









It's typical to have some off leash play time in puppy class, but once you get into basic obedience after that, most classes are strictly on leash.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeSigh. The biggest pain point right now is counter jumping when we are making our food or getting his ready. Up until now we have just been saying OFF and leading him back to the floor. This was beyond not working So with what I read yesterday now with the OFF he gets verbal praise when he gets down. Ill continue to do this. The trainer in the past suggested throwing a treat down when he jumped up and clicking and praising when he would go down...but to me it would seem that by doing this he would just figure out jump up = treat thrown on floor?


I have done the treat on the floor before, but I would use that as a last resort because you can create a behavior chain where he jumps on the counter knowing that he'll then get a treat for getting off. With Cassidy, she'd jump on the furniture and the bed, and if I reached for her to drag her off she'd jump out of the way and grab at my sleeve. She thought we were playing. So in that case I did use a treat on the floor after I gave her the command because I couldn't figure how else to GET her off so I could reinforce it. She was also a superglue dog (way worse than a velcro dog!) who hated being ignored and left alone. So another tactic that worked was to tell her "off" and if she didn't jump down immediately, I turned and walked out of the room, closing the door behind me. I couldn't leave her alone for more than a few seconds because she was a horrific chewer and would have destroyed something, but 30 seconds or so was okay. I'd open the door, tell her "good dog!" and go back in with her. Didn't take her too long to figure out she had to get off as soon as I said so.









Keefer was horrendous around food, he had really bad manners because he was always hungry and would have eaten until he exploded, if allowed. So I worked with him to teach him that the way to get food was to ignore it and look at me. And in the meantime, if I was busy making dinner and didn't have time to devote a lot of attention to keeping him off the counters, I'd put him away in his crate or the garage pen. After we had some foundation training building focus, and he was paying better attention to me, I'd just bump him off the counter with a hip check, very calm and matter of fact. "Off!", then bump, then praise. It took awhile, but he's now really good. He'll stretch his neck as long as it will go and sniff the edge of the counter, which I'll allow, he just can't put his paws up there. It takes time, and patience. Halo is still too small for this to be a problem yet, but we will be dealing with it soon.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaWill preparing her food, leaving it on the counter and leaving her in there alone in a sit stay help keep her from jumping on the counter?


I'm not so sure if you'd be able to rely on this method to teach her from ALWAYS staying off the counter, because this puts her on a command, and as such, will work only while under command. I also think it might introduce other un-related problems, because if you expect her to maintain an issued command forever, she obviously can't, and when she forgets she's under command and you forget to release her, she could possibly even learn to release herself of commands, you know what I mean?


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RhenaWill preparing her food, leaving it on the counter and leaving her in there alone in a sit stay help keep her from jumping on the counter?
> ...


Yup -- totally see what you mean about the release.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Hey thanks all....great ideas! Ive noticed that this initial training sort of follows a pattern of whatever the biggest pain point is gets the most training attention and round and round it goes

This morning he was really bad so after the OFF and praise didnt work he got a timeout in the crate.

I really like the idea of the dog having to sit and wait for food and wish I had started that sooner as its going to take a bit of work to undo this "let me at it" food mindset he has. Poor Ditka is my test dog for training me as well! He is good about waiting for the bowl of water or food to be put on the ground now and is about 2 inches away from letting it actually contact the floor







Im hoping soon we will have it contact the floor and be left until I give him the OK!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeHey thanks all....great ideas! Ive noticed that this initial training sort of follows a pattern of whatever the biggest pain point is gets the most training attention and round and round it goes
> 
> This morning he was really bad so after the OFF and praise didnt work he got a timeout in the crate.
> 
> ...


I'm really glad we did this early with Juno -- but really we only did it because we were "forced" into it. Early on she had shown signs of guarding (trying to push my hand out of her bowl when I put it in there and once growling at my husband when he was near her while eating). We went after this problem REALLY aggressively and the end result was our food time routine -- it's ended up helping with a lot more than just guarding! Her whole attitude around food is really pleasant and it's becoming clear that she understands that it's a resource that we control (and that we'll always provide her with enough of it). 

Ditka's still young. I bet it doesn't take more than two meals to get him sitting and waiting nicely for his food!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Glad to hear you nipped the food aggression in the bud! Thats one thing with D man that I did starting with his first meal...I would rub him, take it away, put my hand near his mouth, all sorts of things to let him know I giveth and I can taketh away









Good news, found a local trainer who has an AKC Good Citizens class right down the street and she also own, trains, and shows/competes with GSD's! Score!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeHe is good about waiting for the bowl of water or food to be put on the ground now and is about 2 inches away from letting it actually contact the floor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I bet you can do it right now - just keep picking up the food bowl and wait for him to sit again. If he breaks while you're bending down to set the bowl on the floor stand back up, over and over and over again. That's what I do. At first I release to eat as soon as the bowl touches the floor, then when I remove my hands from it, then when I'm standing back up, then when I get eye contact after setting down the bowl. I make it gradually more challenging once the puppy has mastered the previous step. 

Start with the bowl closer to you than the dog so you can actually get it before he can. As he gets better about controlling himself nudge it closer to him with your foot, until he can hold a sit with eye contact with the bowl right in front of him. Then YOU start moving further away, a few feet at a time so the bowl is right by his feet, but you're across the room. As long as you increase difficulty in tiny increments, and only with reliable success first, he'll figure out that he needs to comply if he wants to eat. The faster he gets with the program, the faster he gets to eat. 

Here's Keefer at almost 5 months old, in the garage pen with his food bowl on the floor and me on the other side of a closed gate (bad quality, sorry):










I tried to get a similar picture of Halo this morning while my hubby was feeding her, but he doesn't follow directions, LOL! Maybe I can get one tonight.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Love the pic! "Come on mom, please?!?!?!"









Thats exactly what I tried to do last night with D....I need to stick with it as when I kept trying over and over it got close to 10 attempts and then the human lost his pateince







Ill keep doing this each time I feed him or give him water...cant wait to try tonight!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

I remember seeing that picture of Keefer and another one (was it Halo?) sitting with bits of kibble right in front of her, eyes locked on you!

Food has been our godsend for working on both focus and impulse control. Juno is very good about not taking food unless it's handed to her or being told "take it" in pretty controlled situations. I'm going to work on what you and MrLeadFoot do as far as leaving the room while before giving her the go ahead.... (which I think she should be able to handle -- she can be so clingy that sometimes she doesn't want to eat unless I'm in the room anyway!)

If anyone has anymore impulse control activities I'd love to be able to up the ante! (The "hardest" thing Juno does is sit, I throw kibble across the room and say "leave it" and she watches me before either taking the kibble or getting another handful from me. Oh, and she can "come" to me around a pile of kibble I've told her to leave -- although she has to give the food A LOT of space -- she doesn't even trust herself to get too close!)


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

That was probably another picture of Keefer, I have a couple, but no pics of Halo doing the food bowl thing yet. I only leave the room very briefly, (and not yet for Halo, we're a long way from that), and only after working up to it to where I'm sure they won't self release and start eating. What I've done is take the water bowl into the house to refill, or bring the cats their dish of canned food, and then come back. 

Funny story, we were catless for about 6 months when we first had Cassidy, so we'd leave the back door to the garage (which accesses the dog door to the outside run, which is the potty area) open, and I'd put her in a sit with her food bowl on the floor and went into the house to talk to my hubby for a minute. I totally forgot about her and she did break, but she did NOT eat - she came into the house looking for me to see what was up, lol!

Rhena, it sounds like you and Juno are really doing great, pretty advanced stuff with regards to food and impulse control for her age!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

No kidding, Im beyond impressed with that food control at her age!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaIf anyone has anymore impulse control activities I'd love to be able to up the ante! (The "hardest" thing Juno does is sit, I throw kibble across the room and say "leave it" and she watches me before either taking the kibble or getting another handful from me. Oh, and she can "come" to me around a pile of kibble I've told her to leave -- although she has to give the food A LOT of space -- she doesn't even trust herself to get too close!)


That's pretty good right there. But, I agree that it sounds like it's time to take the control outside and with something else more prey-driven. Does she play fetch, by any chance?


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RhenaIf anyone has anymore impulse control activities I'd love to be able to up the ante! (The "hardest" thing Juno does is sit, I throw kibble across the room and say "leave it" and she watches me before either taking the kibble or getting another handful from me. Oh, and she can "come" to me around a pile of kibble I've told her to leave -- although she has to give the food A LOT of space -- she doesn't even trust herself to get too close!)
> ...


Thanks for all the positive feedback! I think all the impulse control stuff is something that I really enjoy (for some odd reason -- I'm probably a control freak!) so we do it a lot.

We DO play fetch inside the house -- with two balls rotating -- and she loves it. I took her to a park to play -- and brought along a toy to play fetch with and she wasn't too into it. 

RIGHT afterwards I happened upon one of your posts, MrLF, about playing fetch and it was not only great advice, but I had done literally everything wrong! I'm kicking myself for not starting more of her training outside in high distraction areas first instead of inside. But the whole fetch thing, I definitely should have started inside! Plus, I brought a kong (one that didn't have any food in it and never has) which is a chew toy -- so she was all confused I'm sure. Next time I'll bring her balls (I couldn't find them-- somehow they manage to end up all over the house -- and I was in a hurry to get to the park before I had to get somewhere else!) and use your technique. She's obviously too little for a frisbee yet, but my husband and I are designing the fence around the yard so that she has a really long spot we can use for fetch and frisbee, so we've got to get her started on those things before we end up with a fenced in area that doesn't get much use! We're definitely going to use some of your techniques with the "leave it" and then "find it" with the ball. 

After some buggy whip and catch it discussion on this thread, I ordered a "catch it." It's on the way and I'm really looking forward to playing with her with it. When I rigged up a similar makeshift toy, she loved it, but destroyed it pretty quickly!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ditka now sits at the door looking at his buggy whip just begging to go out and play...its so much fun to do with him and he loves it more then any other toy or ball we have ever given him.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Okay, also not great quality (and try not to notice our fugly garage floor!), but here's Halo:


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

The one thing that I found that has taught my dog the MOST self-control was the Stay during fetch. She loves fetch SO much, so this was the one thing out of everything, including stay before eating, that has taught her how to check her enthusiasm.

After learning to stay while a ball, or other object is flying, bouncing, or whatever, getting her to pay attention to what I want her to do now seems REALLY easy, regardless of the situation whether it be around other dogs, other people, checking out new surroundings, literally anything that I've been able to expose her to.

Haven't decided yet whether or not to train her for protection, but if I do, I'm confident that she'll listen even under that scenario. Of course, I'll have to then teach her that the ball is not the priority any more, but that's going to be easy with this dog.

FWIW, right now I feel that the only reason to teach her to protect is when she's ready to start naturally protecting, if THAT particular type of focus results in her not being able to listen under that kind of stress, I will then probably need to train her to protect, because I believe that the best way to teach them to control themselves while protecting, and the best way to teach them to reliably stop when you say so, is to protection train them. I, personally, don't want a dog that is unreliable in that regard, and I sure don't want to worry about "accidental" liabilities. I live in a bedroom community with lots of children and such, and I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt.

With that said, at this point, this particular dog is SO well-behaved, and seems so easy to train, and if she maintains her current disposition, I shouldn't have to protection train her. That's why I make it a point to expose her to plenty of different stimuli now; open areas, confined areas, places with plenty of people, plenty of noise, plenty of children, tied out on a stake, tied to a tree, around other animals, in the car, in elevators, you name it, if I can take her there, I will.

IME the less they have to fear and the more confident they are, the less reason they feel they need to be "on guard", if ever. As a matter of fact, on New Year's Eve, she was 5 months old. I took her to a New Year's Eve party, and she stayed in my Suburban the whole time. Sure, I took her out for potty breaks and to eat dinner, but then it was right back in the car. Just before midnight, I snuck up to the car and watched her without her knowing. When the people in the neighborhood came out to shoot off their fireworks I simply observed her. I thought for sure she'd be startled by the loud fireworks, but she just sat up and watched. She didn't flinch! I really think I have a winner with this particular dog, and at this point I seriously doubt I'll need to protection train her.









You gotta love the beauty of this breed we know as the German Shepherd!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

As Im working from home its going to be "teach Ditka to play ball" day using the technique Mr LF posted.

Ill be sure to post here how it goes. Besides the buggy whip and walks I want another way to have fun with him and to tire him out


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Halo is SO cute!!!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeAs Im working from home its going to be "teach Ditka to play ball" day using the technique Mr LF posted.
> 
> Ill be sure to post here how it goes. Besides the buggy whip and walks I want another way to have fun with him and to tire him out


2 sessions so far and improving rapidly!!!

Im using 2 identical balls to teach this. I throw one with the verbal command...he has always then run after it, got it, and come back towards me...I praise HIGHLY as he runs to me and dont use his recall command but his informal come. The challenge has been that he gets to about 4-6 feet of me then looks like he wants me to chase him. This is when I take out the second ball and play with it on the ground like a crazy man







Sometimes at this point he drops his first ball and when he does that he also gets a lot of praise. Sometimes I can just take the first ball from him and then throw again. This second time he did very well and dropped the first ball to get the second most of the time...we probably did 15 throws. Ill do this a couple more times today.

Thanks again Mr LF...this has worked so well!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeHalo is SO cute!!!


Resounding agreement here!!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_Pike
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KC_PikeAs Im working from home its going to be "teach Ditka to play ball" day using the technique Mr LF posted.
> ...


Must... get... to... park... to... play... fetch....

Oh crap, we only have one ball that she hasn't demolished right now.... plus, I supposed I need to get some non-dog-related work done!

Nice job Ditka! You guys are going to have so much fun!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ha, he has been DEAD asleep since the ball playing...Im going to like this


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I deleted the other pic because I got a much better one today:










I was able to get hubby to follow directions in front of the camera so I could be behind the camera, lol!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

CUTE!!!! I so want that behavior soon, last night and today Ive been able to get the bowl to the floor so baby steps.

She is adorable.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Thanks! I started by releasing her the nanosecond the bowl touched the floor - definitely baby steps! It's only been a few days that I've been able to wait for her to look up and make eye contact first. Now I can start extending the amount of time I make her wait to a few seconds.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_Pike
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KC_PikeAs Im working from home its going to be "teach Ditka to play ball" day using the technique Mr LF posted.
> ...


Sounds like he's ready for the next step, so let's fine-tune this a bit:

When he drops the first ball, you can praise, but do NOT wait to throw the 2nd one. Unlike with other things, for now, you want the throwing of the 2nd ball to be the reward, not necessarily the praise. I'm not saying NOT to praise, but just say something like "Good Boy" while you throw the 2nd ball, does that make sense?

You'll soon see that he gets the message that once he drops the 1st ball, the 2nd ball will be thrown, and he gets to chase it down. When you see that, for the times he doesn't bring the first one all the way to you, start withholding the 2nd ball a bit, and instruct him to "bring that one here first" (that's what I said to my dog), and point to the 1st ball on the ground. If he looks at the 1st one, he's wanting to do what you want, but he probably doesn't know what you're saying. So, do what you can to SHOW him, even if it means going and picking it up yourself, and walking it back to the original spot you were at, talking to him, praising him calmly (not too much exuberance; save that for when he does bring it without your help), and repeating your bring-it-here command. Do this part gradually. And, be patient, you do NOT want him to lose interest in this game. As long as he knows dropping the first one invokes the throw of the second ball, if he drops it away from you, you can start saying, "No, bring it here." What I mean is that it is ok to say No, just don't scold him, yo want to gently teach him like a little baby here and get him to understand that you don't want him to just drop it wherever he wants, does that make sense?

If he EVER brings it all the way to you, praise like he just saved your life, and act like a crazed mad-man (think: I hope the neighbors call the police)









Whatever you do, do NOT EVER chase him when he looks like he wants you to chase him, even if it is in fun. You'll end up making it REALLY tough to get him to bring it to you, if you do. FWIW, with my current dog, I resisted ANY form of chasing her for ANY reason from the very beginning; she's 7 months now, and has never been chased. And, believe me, it takes a lot of restraint, because I WANT to chase her in fun, even when we're not playing fetch or anything, but I have resisted that, and I honestly believe that is the KEY to her coming when called 100% of the time, and also makes it easy for so many other things like dropping a toy, and bringing something to me.

Anyway, while you want to try not to end the session with him dropping the ball far from you, you also don't want to end it with you frustrated, or him tired of the game. Try to end each session at a high point for him. What I did was throw it one last time, and if she didn't look like she was going to bring it, I would start retreating WHILE SHE WAS MOVING TOWARD ME. If you can walk backwards and he still comes, great. If you have to turn and run the other way, that's fine, but what you want to do is to get him to at least move in your direction, for now. Get him to drop the ball even if he's still a bit away from you, praise to death, pick up the ball and put it away. This is also the time to stop letting him play with balls anymore, and instead teach him to cherish dearly the times he does get to play with them, which is when you two are playing fetch. As another side benefit, you won't believe the bond this creates, either.









FWIW, I never let my dog play with a ball by herself. I never did. Not any ball. She's perfect at fetch now, and I still don't, although I do let her carry the ball while we walk around the park after playing fetch. I do not, however, let her carry it around our backyard, because I don't want to take the chance that I will get distracted at home and leave her to chew on the ball.

I'm sharing all this because I have found that a ball can be a helluva motivational item, for all other forms of training. It is small enough to keep in your pocket, although you better carry a rag or napkin, too, unless you want saliva all over and inside your clothes.







If I ever want to distract my dog from ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING, I can pull it out of my pocket. She will also obey ANY command for the ball. And, best of all, I don't need treats. Of course, I don't use the ball for motivation in the house, because that would be asking for trouble, and I don't want to have to get new carpeting, new walls, etc.!

BTW, what are you using for balls? I have found the Kong balls to be outstanding. $7 at my local PetsMart and indestructible. Because they are $7 each, no one seems to use them for fetch, and even at the dog park while other people are throwing balls around, my dog will ONLY chase down her Kongs. I get the medium size (I think), because they also fit the standard ChuckIt handles.









Here's to you and Ditka!







Congratulations for seeing such quick improvement, and I hope at least some of this info helps you further. Please keep me posted on your progress, because there's nothing better than a good success story!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks again! All of that makes perfect sense and Ill keep fine tuning it. I also keep the balls up and away so that they are only used when I decide its time to play. As you noted I want this ball to be a huge motivational tool like the dogs Ive seen at the local Schutzhund club.

Oh yeah, Im just using the Chuckit balls that we had here at home...they are bright orange so they are easy for him to follow and seem to be made very well. I want to get him 2 large Kong balls but will use the Chuckits until he grows a bit more.

Ill do another session later today and post another update. He is still tired









Im also making him sit before we play fetch or play with his buggy whip...it took him a while at first but its getting better. Time to start also using toys as motivation instead of food.

Thanks again!!!

Oh yeah, working on stay/bleib quite a bit today and he is doing great with it!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Juno did not do so well with fetch at the park today. WAY too much distraction for her -- I didn't even get to work on running backward and getting her to move with the ball towards me or acting like a lunatic for the other ball 'cause most of the time she chased the ball down but then got distracted before she got it into her mouth. Looks like I need to work on getting her excited about her new balls! (Who would have thought teaching a game would be so involved!)


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Finally signed up for photobucket! 

Here she is...

...at about 12 weeks (when we first got her)










... and a few weeks later










She's already much bigger than this. (We bathed her on Monday, so I had to check her collar size and it was fine.... but today it was already too tight!)










I'll have to take some more pics soon...


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

So happy to see her! Beautiful and both Ditka and I have ears up envy!

I wouldnt worry too much about the ball game...Ditka is doing his in our fenced back yard so there are no distractions at all.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Note to self, dont go to Petsmart alone with Ditka and try to buy stuff at the same time with no cart.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

My favorite picture of the boy...and the tennis ball was taken away, I know they arent safe







Ill get some updated ones later today.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeSo happy to see her! Beautiful and both Ditka and I have ears up envy!
> 
> I wouldnt worry too much about the ball game...Ditka is doing his in our fenced back yard so there are no distractions at all.


Juno's ears have always been up since I've had her. I was just down in the "ears up" forum just to see what it was all about and didn't realise it was such a point of anxiety! For all the things that Juno struggles with (her kennel cough the first weeks we had her, the worms she has now, her owners who won't let play with every dog she sees, etc...), her ears don't seem to be one of them!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

I hope Ditka's are up soon....fingers are crossed.

And I hear ya on the worms, he just finished 3 days of medicine for his...sigh.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeNote to self, dont go to Petsmart alone with Ditka and try to buy stuff at the same time with no cart.


Ha! I was just going to come to this thread to ask some advice about what others do when they take the puppy to a new place. 

Whenever I take her a new place for socialization and I try to get something done (like picking up some treats for her or whatever), it's almost impossible. Part of it is that she's SUCH a puller when she really wants to get at something. I'm thinking that maybe when I take her to a new place, I need to just be able to focus on her and work on her focusing on me in between exploring. Any ideas or ways that you guys bring your pups to a new place would be much appreciated!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

The picture of Ditka... I melted! He's such a sweetie .... and already so husky looking. He's going to be a strong one, isn't he?

I have to say, there's something about the puppyishness of floppy ears that is awfully cute... even if the endgame is ears up.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks Some days its lucky for him he is so cute or he would be in lots of trouble!

Next time I head somewhere like that it will be a partner deal...the g/f with the clicker and treats and me on the leash...that way when he starts to pull or go crazy we can work on it right then.

I must say I was happy when he actually did about 6 sits for a period of time when I was about to lose it...that made me smile.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

You guys have been busy - pictures AND avatars, lol! Both of them are adorable!!!









I just got back from Pet Food Express with Halo, and it went okay, but she did dive head first into a box of bulk dog biscuits.







I know she ate at least one of them before I noticed - I was browsing the shelf above. Fortunately, they didn't have a problem with it, and she got to meet several people, plus show off some commands.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Haha Halo...they are quick


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootThe one thing that I found that has taught my dog the MOST self-control was the Stay during fetch. She loves fetch SO much, so this was the one thing out of everything, including stay before eating, that has taught her how to check her enthusiasm.
> 
> After learning to stay while a ball, or other object is flying, bouncing, or whatever, getting her to pay attention to what I want her to do now seems REALLY easy, regardless of the situation whether it be around other dogs, other people, checking out new surroundings, literally anything that I've been able to expose her to.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you have a keeper!

What's your take on the window of time for puppy socialization? I was reading "Culture Clash" (great book!) and Donaldson's take is that puppy habituation ends between 4 and 5 months. (Ergo me running around desperately trying to put 4 month old Juno in as many different, strange circumstances and meeting all sorts of people as soon as possible.)

I'm just curious about what everyone else's experiences is with how long you have to introduce your pup to novel situations before the you actually have to work to make them really comfortable.

Thanks!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Next question (of about a million I have!):

When on a walk with your pup, what do you do when you come across a dog in a fenced in yard?

Juno is VERY excited around other dogs. (As I'm sure many pups are. Mostly she just really wants to meet and play with them.)

I'm just a little unsure about whether or not it's a good idea to meet other dogs through a fence.... or if I'm better off using the opportunity to get her refocused on me.... and save the dog meetings for play time and when we come across another dog on a leash.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaWhat's your take on the window of time for puppy socialization? I was reading "Culture Clash" (great book!) and Donaldson's take is that puppy habituation ends between 4 and 5 months. (Ergo me running around desperately trying to put 4 month old Juno in as many different, strange circumstances and meeting all sorts of people as soon as possible.)
> 
> I'm just curious about what everyone else's experiences is with how long you have to introduce your pup to novel situations before the you actually have to work to make them really comfortable.
> 
> Thanks!


I don't think it's a matter of exposing them to everything they're going to encounter in their lives before they're 4 or 5 months old. IME, the mere act of exposing them to new things while they're young teaches them HOW to handle new situations. For example, if they go to a busy store for the first time as a pup, they see an enclosed area teeming with all kinds of people, smells, sights and sounds. For the most part, nothing bad will happen to them, so if you later take them to a shopping mall, they won't go in jaded, does that make sense?

Here's another perfect example. I just returned from yet another new park, where I played fetch with my dog. As usual, there were other people there with dogs that weren't reliable on their recalls, and their dogs would run with my dog while she fetched. Because she previously encountered the same thing at other parks, she knew nothing bad was going to happen, so she just ignored them, even though these were different dogs at a different park.

Something else that was new was someone flying a kite. She'd never seen a kite before. She was a bit wary at first, and kept her eye on it, as it dipped and dived, and even when it crahsed a few times. The whole time I just kept talking to her and throwing the ball, and soon she realized there was not going to be a problem, just like everything else she's encountered that was new.

At one point, while the kite was just about to land on the ground, I inadvertently threw the ball right where it was landing. She was chasing the ball and actually ran into the kite. It didn't hurt anything on the kite, thankfully, but I was apologizing my butt off, 'cause it really was my fault.

The guy said, "No problem, it was an accident. And, your dog is so good. At least, she didn't attack it like all the other dogs do when they see it." We started talking, and he said that it happens all the time; dogs who haven't seen kites before take on a defensive posture and he's had quite a few kites ruined by dogs.

So, again, you're never going to expose your dog to everything before it is 4 or 5 months old, but the more you expose them to, the more they learn how to handle new situations with calm and confidence.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

MrLF,

That totally makes sense. So I'll keep exposing her to new situations and help her be confident and calm in those situations (the confident part she already has -- the calm? sometimes not so much!), but not stress out too much about getting her to experience EVERYTHING in the next few weeks!

Love the story about the kite... great illustration.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Ergh -- minor frustation...

We've taken puppy class and now are in an OB at a really great place here in town. 

The OB class apparently covers some leash walking stuff,... but not for a few weeks and we've been working on it pretty intensely so far on our own.

The trainer recommended we use a harness so that Juno doesn't desensitize her neck to the pressure. But the ultimate goal is for her to walk on a flat collar.

So I e-mailed the trainer about how and when to make that transition from harness to flat. I told her how we'd been training Juno to walk nice on a leash (be a tree, change directions, treats and praise when she's in the right place). I feel like there's a point at which the harness (which clips in the back) is just encouraging her to pull. In spite of all of our lessons, I fear that the harness is ultimately limiting because the urge to pull is SO strong with it.

Her response was to clarify why she suggested the harness over the flat collar and then to say we should take the leash pulling class that they offer. The first class consists of a trainer working with each dog individually to teach them how to walk nicely. In the second one, the owner takes over. In the third, we go outside for high distraction, real life work. 

If I've been working with her for weeks and weeks, I really don't understand how the trainer can teach her to walk nicely in the fraction of an hour. Maybe he's a dog whisperer? I mean, surely, if that's all it takes, then this is something I can do at home...?

Given the fact that we're already taking two classes at her place (and were planning on taking OB II -- although she doesn't know that), I'm a little bugged that she suggested that we sign up for (and pay for!!) another one! (Especially when she's still a pup and I don't really consider her walking a "problem" -- just something that I want to teach her before it becomes a problem.) I know, it's a business but one of the reviews I read on her site said that she's really good about offering advice and being a resource outside of and after the class. She's a really great trainer and we've learned a ton from her -- but there are probably lots of other great trainers here who we can learn a ton more from!

In any case, in the meantime, we're going to switch from a regular harness with the clip on the back to an Easy Walk Harness where you can clip either in the front or the back -- we'll also work on using the flat collar in lower distraction areas and clicking and treating away! (Thanks to Debbie's tip that Juno might need to learn the LLW in motion rather than in the bathroom!)

Just wanted to see if anyone here (where I probably should have gone first) has advice about safely switching to a flat collar on a pup that's a pretty strong puller. 

Thanks!!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I think this post might cover both of your immediately previous posts above, to some extent.



> Originally Posted By: RhenaMrLF,
> 
> That totally makes sense. So I'll keep exposing her to new situations and help her be confident and calm in those situations (the confident part she already has -- the calm? sometimes not so much!), but not stress out too much about getting her to experience EVERYTHING in the next few weeks!
> 
> Love the story about the kite... great illustration.


Wait... I don't think she'll necessarily be calm in all types of new situations, and I wouldn't try to make it so. As she matures and is used to being exposed to new situations, some of those new situations will be similar to those that she's been in before, and she'll develop calmness on her own. But, "calm" is relative. The first time she's exposed to a totally fun thing, she's bound to be excited, and the next time, since she KNOWS how great that thing was the first time, she'll be even MORE excited. But, as time goes on, and you practice obedience before letting her do fun things, you'll see over time that she'll be calmer then she was those first few times, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she's just going to lay down and wait, you know what I mean? So, you kind of have to take what I'm sharing with a grain of salt, you know what I mean?

And, your statement about "totally making sense" is really what training a dog is all about. While some people will say dogs are not like humans, I beg to differ. They are more like us than people think. In fact, they even get the same kinds of diseases we do. Anyway, if you stop and think about them like young children, you'll see alot of similarities. I can't remember who said it, but when I studied dog psychology, one author said that a smart dog is like a smart 6 year old child. While some may not have the good fortune to experience a smart 6 year old, my experience has shown that the author was quite on the money. In fact, I think some dogs are more like smart 8 year old children.

Don't forget that every child is different, too, thus may learn differently. Some kids do poorly in certain subjects in school, but not because they don't have an aptitude for that subject. Often, it's because they aren't taught in a manner that is appropriate for the way their brains process things. But, classroom environments prevent finding that out, and classroom settings are designed to teach middle-of-the-road, to HOPEFULLY at least get some of what they're teaching into every pupil. But, get a problem student one-on-one learning early on when they begin experiencing difficulties and they can easily become stars in that "problem" subject. That's why tutoring can work so well.

So, my point here is that no matter what anybody tells you; me, other dog owners, class trainers, etc., YOU are ultimately the one that has the most training potential for YOUR dog. You see your dog day in and day out; you know her personality. You see what works and what doesn't; you see the times she's most receptive to learning; in short, you know her psyche.

Bottom line is that dog training is conceptually quite simple because it really is simply common sense. But, people often feel overwhelmed because a dog LOOKS so much different than we do, and because they have 4 legs and are more agile than humans. See a young child running towards the stairs, and what do we do? Run and grab them. The only reason we do that is because we can. Does it teach the child to be careful of stairs? No. That act is only avoidance, not education. In fact, often a child thinks it's a game, and laughs and starts running from you. Is that any different than your dog? Have you ever reached for your dog, and she started playing? Same thing.

Now, what if you put the child on the stairs and suddenly caused it to lose balance and it fell... into your arms, of course. Is the child scared? Yes. Will it maybe think twice on the stairs now? Hopefully. Do the same thing with the dog. Same thing.

So, it is ALL common sense, it's all quite easy, and it's really just simple psychology. Of course, some things are more challenging than others, but if you break everything down to the basic steps that lead up to a behavior, and it's all really quite easy to figure out. You also need to let your imagination run wild when dog training because you need to think of ways to communicate what you want to the dog. Get creative, and use your own techniques to teach and apply principles based on simple theories, and you're ultimately the best trainer for your dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

A back clip harness will likely encourage her to pull, but I do like the front hook ones. I've never used an Easy Walk, I have Sense-ation harnesses. Lots of training in low distraction environments, reinforcing for not pulling, and then very gradually increasing distractions would be what I'd try first. I've never done enough leash work with my dogs so they've never been as good on leash as off, but that's the plan for Halo. 

I really like the Silky Leash technique where I can teach her that slight pressure on the collar means to move towards it, releasing the pressure, rather than pulling against it. With Dena, she'd be terrific in the house, and when we went outside, I'd disappear, I ceased to exist to her! I could literally stand there for 20 minutes waiting for her to stop pulling so we could continue walking, or even to notice me at the other end of the leash. There was nothing to reinforce because I couldn't get any rewardable behavior, so learning was just not happening. Switching to a front hook harness helped a lot, and also the trainer's suggestion of easing the transition from indoors (perfect) to outdoors (awful) by working with her just inside the house with the door open, and then right outside the door, and finally, actually getting to the sidewalk in front of the house. We did LOTS of walking back and forth without going anywhere.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks for the advice, MrLF.... perhaps I should have said "relaxed" or "at ease" rather than "calm." I want her to be able to be excited about new situations and to be able to show that excitement... and to not be afraid and to look to us for guidance if she needs it. 

I took her for her first lunchtime walk on the Premier Easy Walk Harness and that thing works like a charm!! I'm so incredibly happy because now we'll be able to take some energy-burning, world-exploring walks without me and my husband having the leash yanked and pulled in our hands! I think it worked particularly well because we'd worked so long on her not pulling on the regular back clip harness and so she didn't really *want* to pull but the chest harness just made it SO tempting and SO automatic. (At bit like trying to teach someone to diet in front of a banquet table.) I'm sure it's not a total cure and when greater distractions like dogs come into the picture, she's still going to want to pull... but we're taking her to lots of doggy play sessions to get that some of that worked out.

So we get to have good walks and in the meantime we'll work behind closed doors (so to speak) on the silky leash technique on her flat collar. 

Time and patience (and the right equipment!) are paying off!!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Great news!

Given this and the information in my thread on a harness Im going to go and pick one up from Petco this weekend while we continue to train flat collar.

Good work!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Yesterday we went to class with the current trainer as we have 3 more sessions left...and of course she totally impressed me with this class! It was our first time at the AKC Good Citizens class and we worked on greeting strangers, stay, leave it, and recalls with distractions. Ditka did great thanks to all our work and the advice here!

First off was greeting a stranger and then allowing her to meet me with no jumping up. He did great. Then the stranger came over and inpsected his ears, pars, and teeth. He did well with that too.

He managed a 2 minute stay and also did great when I would take steps back or to the sides. She also played music and did other things for distractions. I was so proud of him but also have to keep in mind that I need to really keep working on it as he might have just been tired and not wanted to move









In case any of the dogs down the road wanted to be therapy dogs she brought out a lot of props to introduce the dogs too and her and the helper would go by in a wheelchair, on crutches, with big hats on, a walker....it was GREAT that he got to become comfortable with these things!

Next it was time for leave it on leash....we would throw a treat on the ground and hold him where he couldnt reach it...once he stopped trying for it or looked at us he was treated and rewarded. He did well and this is an exercise Ill continue to work on in the real world as well on walks.

Last we did recalls over toys. The trainer would put keys, stuffed animals, balls, and other items between the dog and me and then he would be recalled over them. He only "failed" once when he went for the kong

The only real issue was his pulling and wanting to go to the other dogs when he wasnt focused with food in front of him. But at this age I feel thats very normal and had no problem with it.

Next class is Thursday.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeLast we did recalls over toys. The trainer would put keys, stuffed animals, balls, and other items between the dog and me and then he would be recalled over them. He only "failed" once when he went for the kong


Awesome!







We haven't tried recalls over toys yet, we just started recalls in the class last weekend and worked on it a little more in yesterday's class. Next weekend we'll be doing recalls from off leash play. We took Halo to our favorite off leash park yesterday (see my thread in the Pictures forum!), and she did great, so I think she'll do well in class too, but we'll work more on recalls at home this week. 

I think you and Ditka are doing GREAT!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeYesterday we went to class with the current trainer as we have 3 more sessions left...and of course she totally impressed me with this class! It was our first time at the AKC Good Citizens class and we worked on greeting strangers, stay, leave it, and recalls with distractions. Ditka did great thanks to all our work and the advice here!
> 
> First off was greeting a stranger and then allowing her to meet me with no jumping up. He did great. Then the stranger came over and inpsected his ears, pars, and teeth. He did well with that too.
> 
> ...


He's doing SO well! I'm SO impressed with the not jumping up! We're still working on that one and are considering doing a Saturday-morning meet a bunch of people and learn to deal with the doorbell socialization blitz. (Perhaps we'll lure all our friends over with some coffee, doughnuts, and mimosas.) In the meantime, I can't give any guarantees that she won't hop up (especially if the person is wearing gloves or mittens, which she would really like to tug at). 

That "leave it" on leash is the same way that we started Juno on more impulse control around food -- our trainer similarly taught it in class. It worked like a charm!

Great recall work! I'm going to take a cue from you and try to recall Juno over various distractions. (Although I think Ditka's love of the kong far out-does Juno's. Ah, the puppy with the prey drive!)

Juno got a play session with about 15 or so other dogs of varying ages and sizes at our training facility today. It was awesome!! She mostly played with another pup (a black German Shepherd with little bloody, teething gums!) close to her age, but every so often she would try to play with the big boys for a little (pit bulls, spaniels, golden retriever adults). She's getting a bit better at not immediately trying to put her paws all over every dog's shoulders and is actually play bowing to all of them before mauling them. The trainer was impressed that she changed her style of play to be more gentle with a little bulldog/pug (and pulldog? bugdog?) mix. Towards the end I did a little recall and she came quickly and happily (she was so tired by then that I wasn't too worried about her not coming -- next time I'll have to work on calling her when the distraction is greater and perhaps have even huger pieces of chicken as her reward. I want to be totally confident that she'll come back at off-leash dog parks and on hikes!) 

It was worth every one of the ten bucks it cost for the hour and we're going to plan on doing more of these play sessions on Sunday mornings (like church for the caninists). 

It'll be interesting to see when both Juno and Ditka start to be able to sit through a lesson without pulling towards the other dogs! You're right -- totally normal at this age, me thinks! We're working really hard on it right now and I'm starting to use some of Leslie McDevitt's "Look at that!" game on walks and such when she hears or sees a dog to help her defer to me around her fellow canines. It helps that the play session this morning started with all the owners holding their own dogs -- it was a good chance to have Juno work on sitting, down, and "watch me" with huge temptation around.

Oh! The "catch it" arrived yesterday and we took it outside for two play sessions in the snow. She LOVES it! And so do I. My neighbors probably all think I'm crazy with my running commentary and "good girl!" every time she catches it, but it's totally worth that. It was great exercise -- both mental and physical. I think we might be able to use it for rewards for work in the backyard. And what with the giant cardboard box that it came in, it's just the gift that keeps on giving! Thanks for the link, Debbie!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: KC_PikeLast we did recalls over toys. The trainer would put keys, stuffed animals, balls, and other items between the dog and me and then he would be recalled over them. He only "failed" once when he went for the kong
> ...


Keep us updated on the recall! I'm always looking for ways to make Juno's rock solid. Does she come at the dog park? While playing with other dogs? That's awesome! Let us know how you worked her up to that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Rhena, have you read Control Unleashed? I love Leslie's training philosophy, and have done some CU work with Keefer. LAT helps him a lot! One of the things she uses the catch it toy for is off switch games, where giving up the toy and doing some sort of default behavior (sit? down? watch?) makes the game start again. 

Too soon to tell how Halo will do with a recall from play, but she doesn't play that much in class anyway. There are a couple smaller dogs that she likes to romp around after, but mostly when released to play she's checking out the floor for dropped treats, sniffing other dogs, and seeing if anybody in class have better treats that I do. LOL! But at the park she was really good about checking in with us, and when I'd call her name she'd come to me. 

What they're having us do in class is to call the dog and run backwards and reward. And use really high value treats too, a special recall treat that they never get any other time to reinforce that coming to us is wonderful. At home I like to do the "find it/come!" game where I toss a treat across the room (especially good if you've got hardwood floors because the treats roll a long way and are very visible) and then as soon as she gets the treat I call her, and mark the exact second that she turns back towards me (the whiplash turn), either verbally or with a clicker, and then big praise and a yummy treat when she runs back to me. We're supposed to train with their kibble at home so they're working for their meals, so I'll toss kibble and then reward with something better, like dried salmon treats or freeze dried liver. Running away after you toss the treat helps build a great recall too, and gets them in the habit of chasing YOU, rather than you chasing them, and it's fun for the dog. Gradually build distractions into the game. Right now she'll run right past the cats to get the treat and charge back to me, but she's used to having the cats around, so I don't know if it will translate in class with a bunch of other puppies around.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomRhena, have you read Control Unleashed? I love Leslie's training philosophy, and have done some CU work with Keefer. LAT helps him a lot! One of the things she uses the catch it toy for is off switch games, where giving up the toy and doing some sort of default behavior (sit? down? watch?) makes the game start again.
> 
> Too soon to tell how Halo will do with a recall from play, but she doesn't play that much in class anyway. There are a couple smaller dogs that she likes to romp around after, but mostly when released to play she's checking out the floor for dropped treats, sniffing other dogs, and seeing if anybody in class have better treats that I do. LOL! But at the park she was really good about checking in with us, and when I'd call her name she'd come to me.
> 
> What they're having us do in class is to call the dog and run backwards and reward. And use really high value treats too, a special recall treat that they never get any other time to reinforce that coming to us is wonderful. At home I like to do the "find it/come!" game where I toss a treat across the room (especially good if you've got hardwood floors because the treats roll a long way and are very visible) and then as soon as she gets the treat I call her, and mark the exact second that she turns back towards me (the whiplash turn), either verbally or with a clicker, and then big praise and a yummy treat when she runs back to me. We're supposed to train with their kibble at home so they're working for their meals, so I'll toss kibble and then reward with something better, like dried salmon treats or freeze dried liver. Running away after you toss the treat helps build a great recall too, and gets them in the habit of chasing YOU, rather than you chasing them, and it's fun for the dog. Gradually build distractions into the game. Right now she'll run right past the cats to get the treat and charge back to me, but she's used to having the cats around, so I don't know if it will translate in class with a bunch of other puppies around.


I _have_ read Control Unleashed! I heard that McDevitt is going to come out with a puppy book -- but has been too busy because of the success of CU. I wish it had come out so that I could refer to it for Juno -- but alas, I'll have to be happy with CU. She's so incredibly clever with the different ideas and games she comes up with. 

Thanks for the "catch it" tip! We'll give it a shot. 

I'm pretty sure that Juno knows what "come" means -- it's a matter of proofing it and making her not ever want to ignore that command. The game with tossing the kibble sounds perfect! I can see even eventually doing it outside (maybe after the snow melts and her sniffing skills are up to it!). We play "come" around the house -- but part of the difficulty is getting her to move away from me after she comes when it's just the two of us (much easier when my husband is playing too). Throwing the kibble is the perfect solution! (Plus it's a great way to have her working for her meals.) Eventually we can start adding distractions like toys that she'll have to run over or next to.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaWe play "come" around the house -- but part of the difficulty is getting her to move away from me after she comes when it's just the two of us (much easier when my husband is playing too). Throwing the kibble is the perfect solution! (Plus it's a great way to have her working for her meals.)


Exactly - especially if you've got a dog that's highly food motivated and doesn't want to leave your side as soon as they know you've got treats and it's training time. You need a way to send them away so you can call them back! 

Leslie just came out with a DVD, which is supposed to be awesome. It's sold by Clean Run, and there are a couple of demo videos on the site. I was on her yahoo email list, but just days ago it was inactivated because she's too busy to keep up with it. She had a couple of moderators helping her, but I think she just got overwhelmed - it was a very active list with sometimes dozens of posts a day, and she put a lot into it, trying to respond to practically every question. She posted a final message saying that after she finishes her puppy book she may activate it again, and the archives will be kept available for list members in the meantime. All the people on the list who ordered the DVD and have watched it said the production quality is excellent, and it's well organized and very easy to find a specific technique demonstrated so you don't necessarily need to watch it in order. 

I had just posted on the list about Halo and some of the ways I was using CU principles in raising her, (Look at the kitty! and the whiplash turn), and how she's got a great default down with her head on the floor that she picked up by watching Keefer, who started doing it during Dr. Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol that Leslie talks about in the book (I named it "calm" and he'll do it on cue now!) and she said if I had any good pictures of Halo doing mat work, or any CU or RP stuff to send them to her and she might be able to use them in the puppy book. That would be way cool!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ive been mixing in some pumpkin for Ditka over the past few days and he has been eating great! The problem is when Im mixing this in with his kibble he jumps on the counter like a crazy dog.

Ive been saying OFF, removing him, and praising when he gets his paws on the floor but that doesnt seem to be enough.

Would this be a good time to work on his sit/stay? So put him in sit, give him the stay command, start the mixing...and then if he leaves his stay stop mixing and walk away? Any other ideas like this to get him to be calmer and staying down when its food making time?

He has been doing well once I am done mixing and I have him sit for the bowl to be placed down. He is up to about one second of the bowl on the ground before releasing when last week no contact was made.

Thanks all. Great stuff in this thread!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

To me, there's no better time to reinforce stay than when the reward will be a normal meal (not a treat), so yes, I would say, yes, this the right sequence you have going, but there's no need to walk away. Here's what I do:

1) Sit, Stay
2) Prepare food
3) Take the dog to another spot
4) Sit/Down/Bang, Stay
5) Release

Personally, I don't see how walking away from mixing if he leaves his stay will teach anything other than, "Oh, that mixing he's doing must be something I should like. Why else is he stopping when I get up from my stay? Hmmm, from now on, maybe I should start sniffing around when anything is being mixed, because it just MIGHT be food."

So, instead of walking away, simply stop mixing to correct him to ensure that he stays, then resume your mixing.

With that said, I've gone a bit further in my feeding routine, where I want my dog to take it upon herself to do what she already knows she should do, without me saying so when I prepare her food. She's already 100% reliable if I tell her to Stay while preparing food. So now, instead of telling her to Stay, there are times when I just open the pantry door to get my dog's bowl and to put the kibble in. She knows she's not supposed to poke her nose in, and stays outside the door while I do so. However, if she does start to nose her way closer, I might have to say, "Ahhh, ahhhh, ahhh...", and she usually retreats. If she doesn't, that's when I sometimes stop preparing, step out and close the pantry door. BUT, I only do this because she already knows darned well that she shouldn't stick her nose in the pantry, and I'm at the stage where I want her to do the "right" thing without telling her. But, when I was at the stage you're at now, I wouldn't walk away, because I don't believe my dog knew enough of what was expected of her, and I didn't want to confuse her with the walk-away.

Hope this helps.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RhenaWe play "come" around the house -- but part of the difficulty is getting her to move away from me after she comes when it's just the two of us (much easier when my husband is playing too). Throwing the kibble is the perfect solution! (Plus it's a great way to have her working for her meals.)
> ...


I'll have to see if I can track down a copy of that DVD. (I love reading training and behavior books but perhaps watching a video will just be another way to train me!)

Juno's default is becoming sitting and watching me (we worked on her doing this before being allowed to "go sniff" on a walk today). I'd love for her to be able to do a down (head on floor) stay in certain situations -- but we do so much outside in the snow and ice here in Minnesota that I think that the downs would be torture as a default sometimes! (Although there are times when we're inside when she'll just throw herself into a down when she's desperate to get a treat! We're working on cleaning that up, but sometimes it's just so hard to deny when she looks up with dark big brown eyes.)

We did the throwing of the kibble and coming for a nice treat for her breakfast this morning. She LOVED it! (We do so many activities during mealtime, I think she's starting to not even really enjoy eating when it's just out of the bowl.) I was throwing handfuls of kibble, telling her to "take it" and then calling after she'd had a few bites of (but had not finished) the scattered pieces. She hesitates when she can easily grab one more piece of kibble before heading to me but I hope that by sending her back to it after the "come" she'll learn that whatever she's into will be there (or there will be something just as fun) when she's released again.

That would be SO cool for Halo to be in the CU puppy book! I would definitely buy it in that case -- even if Juno's well out of puppyhood by the time it comes out!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootTo me, there's no better time to reinforce stay than when the reward will be a normal meal (not a treat), so yes, I would say, yes, this the right sequence you have going, but there's no need to walk away. Here's what I do:
> 
> 1) Sit, Stay
> 2) Prepare food
> ...


Fantastic, thanks Mr LF. Ill do this tonight after work with his 3rd meal! Your pup is doing so well...I hope D is like that at 7 months!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

If Halo is published Ill buy it just for that fact







Loved the pics of her in the pictures section!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeIve been mixing in some pumpkin for Ditka over the past few days and he has been eating great! The problem is when Im mixing this in with his kibble he jumps on the counter like a crazy dog.
> 
> Ive been saying OFF, removing him, and praising when he gets his paws on the floor but that doesnt seem to be enough.
> 
> ...


I wish I could offer advice as helpful as Mr Leadfoot's but I feel really lucky that Juno was easy to keep calm around food from day 1. I think it was 90% her temperament and the other 10% was the fact that my husband does not tolerate any sort of pushiness around food. From the very beginning of getting her food ready, he would demand that she either give him lots of space or be in a sit. So when he went to the plastic container of kibble, if she started to nose around or be overly excited, he would stop what he was doing to back her up or tell her to sit and would only continue with food preparation once she was calm. If she followed him to the counter when he added her meds (she had kennel cough early on) and fish oil (her skin is super dry right now), he would put her back into a sit. It took some patience on our part for a few days, but now she sits quietly and waits for her food. 

But like I said, I feel really lucky that she just sort of always had this innate respect around food -- like she always "knew" that being calm and quiet around food would mean that she'd get plenty of it.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Rhena, your post had me almost beside myself with envy, because my dog is a MONSTER when it comes to eating. No one, and I mean no one, believes me when I tell them what she's like around food, but when they witness it in person, they are absolutely shocked.

From the beginning, my dog has been unbelievably ravenous when eating. In fact, she woofs down her meals in approximately 45 seconds, and that's using a "slo-down" bowl I bought purposely to slow her down! With a regular bowl, it's 30 seconds. She rarely chews and just about inhales the food.

My in-laws were here with their dog over Christmas. The first time my father-in-law set about to prepare their dog's food, I watched as he was getting ready to pour their dog's kibble into their dog's bowl, which was sitting on a cooler they brought. I quickly said, "Please put your bowl on the counter while you do that, because my dog is going to chow that food."

He laughed, and said, "Relax, it's only going to take me a second."

Next thing I heard from him was, "Holy crap (expeletive removed)!", as my dog proceeded to attack the food. It was half gone before he could pick the bowl up off the cooler. He turned and looked at me, complexion paled, wide-eyed, and said,"I thought she was going to tear my hand off!"

I think my dog might have been fed "trough style" with her litter mates, because I m ust admit that I've never seen anything like it, either, in all my years around dogs. If you ever saw my dog eat, I think you'd be surprised too, because like my father-in-law says, she actually attacks the food; she doesn't eat enthusiastically, she really looks like she's killing it. I think I am the only one that dare stick my hand in her bowl while she eats, because it really does look like she would tear your hand off, even if only by mistake.

And, that's what got me to start making her Stay before eating at 9 weeks. Even now, at 7 months and 70 lbs., when I release her to eat, she tears to her bowl and eats like she's going to die if she doesn't get it eaten within 45 seconds. It's a trip, to say the least.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

You actually did just give me great advice, by sharing what you did it just reinforces what he suggested as well so thank you! I wish I had started this from day 1 but there is so much when its your first pup. For our next GSD Ill be very prepared


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ha, now that is one hungry dog. Very much sounds like it was a fight to get the food quick when around the littermates!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeYou actually did just give me great advice, by sharing what you did it just reinforces what he suggested as well so thank you! I wish I had started this from day 1 but there is so much when its your first pup. For our next GSD Ill be very prepared


Im also going to do these food related staying steps when it comes to going out a door. The kitchen is where we keep the pup for the most part and when we try to go out to the garage it can be a race/wrestling match to get out without him joining us Ive had enough of all of this so starting tonight its STAY work when going out that door!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I use a Wait, instead of Stay for times when I AM eventually going to let the dog come out the door, after me. This way, they learn to associate Wait with it being a temporary thing, whereas Stay is a permanent thing, does that make sense?

What I did was put the dog on a leash, tell it to Wait, then open the door. If, ok, WHEN the dog lunges for the door, close it, say their name, then tell them to Wait. Repeat (forever, is seems like) until the dog stays when you open the door.

Next step in the process is to do the same thing, when you go to step out the door. Granted, it will be awkward as you try to step out and hold the leash out and back to keep the dog inside the door, as you command Wait.

When you manage to get outside, the dog should not follow until you say so.

Once I got this, and went off-lead, I would instersperse some closings of the door when only I was outside, and the dog was still inside. When I opened the door again, it was another Wait, then close the door. At random, I then open the door and tell the dog to C'mon, which is yet another variation of Come. For C'mon means come with me or near me, but not TO me.

And, don't even think about how prepared you'll be with your NEXT GSD, as hopefully you won't need one for 15 -20 years. Know that even though your dog may have developed some habits you would like changed, because you didn't specifically teach it those habits, you should be able to quite easily re-condition them into behaviors you prefer. So, not all is lost on your current pup!







He's also still so very young, you still have plenty of opporunities to re-shape all kinds of stuff in BOTH of you.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Also, once you have Stays down and Waits done, too, you can even start using Stay Inside for times when only you are going to the other side of a door, and the dog is not to follow. Stay Inside then comes to mean dog stays on the other side of a door that you just went through, even if it's an outdoor gate, or something.

BTW, with my fetch stays, I also use Stay without a Sit or Down first. It's a wonder how much a dog can understand. Dogs are SO smart!

And, dog psychology can be so much fun, because you get to see some pretty instantaneous results.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeHa, now that is one hungry dog. Very much sounds like it was a fight to get the food quick when around the littermates!


I agree, and I must say that this is one of very few behaviors that I have not been able to change. But, then again, it's also not a priority, although I wish I could think of a way, because I would think a dog that eats like this is much more susceptible to the dreaded Bloat.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_Pike...but there is so much when its your first pup...


For being your first pup, I admire your dedication, enthusiasm and logical processes. You're smart to be doing this all now when he is a pup, because it makes SO much difference when they mature. I'm sure you've seen the not-so-logical people that get a GSD pup, don't do anything, then have a rambunctious adult GSD that's just a huge doofus. Much harder to train them at that point, and even when you do, they're not nearly as smart as dogs trained from pups.

And, I mean that literally, because when a pup is trained to Sit, Stay, Look at Me, etc., it calms them and that very act allows them to stop and smell the roses. And, when they do that, they notice so many more things around them, which in turn enables them to learn more about their surroundings, which then enables you to teach them even more.

So, kudos to you and your efforts!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

"Wait"...thats a great idea for when they eventually will be able to follow...thanks. I like that idea a lot!

Yeah, overally Im happy with what Ive done and where we are at given how little I knew to start with.

Thanks again to everyone here as its been SUCH a help.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks Mr LF...Im doing my best and thats all I can do. I also make sure I enjoy this process and take time to just relax and enjoy my dog and the relationship we are building


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootRhena, your post had me almost beside myself with envy, because my dog is a MONSTER when it comes to eating. No one, and I mean no one, believes me when I tell them what she's like around food, but when they witness it in person, they are absolutely shocked.
> 
> From the beginning, my dog has been unbelievably ravenous when eating. In fact, she woofs down her meals in approximately 45 seconds, and that's using a "slo-down" bowl I bought purposely to slow her down! With a regular bowl, it's 30 seconds. She rarely chews and just about inhales the food.
> 
> ...










You're making me extra grateful! She doesn't really inhale her food -- but one day last week she was eating kind of fast and she choked a little on a piece. She was able to cough it up -- but it had me so panicked that I went and looked to see if the doggie Heimlich is the same as the people Heimlich. (It is.) That experience also made me grateful that she's not a wolfer.

Although we ARE considering switching to a raw food diet so we'll see whether that changes her attitude at all. (Crossing my fingers that I don't have 70 pounds racing for the bowl!)


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI use a Wait, instead of Stay for times when I AM eventually going to let the dog come out the door, after me. This way, they learn to associate Wait with it being a temporary thing, whereas Stay is a permanent thing, does that make sense?


This is a great idea! We've been using the wait and stay almost interchangeably -- but I realise now that we've probably been using them almost as you suggest unconsciously. Do you have two different hand signals for them?


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot So, kudos to you and your efforts!


Double kudos!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

We were at the fenced in park during lunch so she could play with her "catch it" off leash. Juno spotted two dogs on leash about a block away and I rewarded her for it -- but as they kept coming towards us, it was too much to resist. She bolted. Granted -- there was a fence between them -- but the other owner clearly was not happy with having a little puppy charge her dogs plus her dogs were getting riled up and barky. I definitely didn't want Juno to think it was OK to stand on one side of a fence barking at dogs passing by even if it was just 'cause she wanted them to play. Without thinking (and definitely not confident at all that it would do anything), I called her name. 

Before I even got the second syllable out, she turned and sprinted back towards me. 

But of course I was so excited that she turned, that I forgot the "come" part of the command (I use "Juno, Come" to recall her) and she hesitated about five feet from me. I crouched down (which is my "hand signal" for recall) and she came the rest of the way. I guess this is an instance where the owner needs more training than the dog! (I should sit in front of a mirror just saying, "Juno, come" over and over.)

I wished I had had an entire chicken to give her. Sadly unprepared, I only had a handful of treats. Still, she seemed happy about that and stayed next to me watching the dogs walk away from her. 

Solid recall is the top of my list for commands so for right now I'm really careful about when I use it. I guess that "real life" is the only way to really test (and a great way to "proof") a command like that! 

Thanks for all the recall tips, 'cause I think they're really paying off!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

So I've noticed that given the freedom to explore (and absent any dogs to play with), Juno almost always chooses to follow a scent trail -- whether it's in the backyard, on a walk, or at the park. She loves to just glue her nose to the ground and follow intricate patterns that are a total mystery to me. (One of my favorite moves is when she follows a trail for a while and then digs her nose into the snow, pauses, and then jumps up and turns to me as if to say, "Ah ha! I found it!" When I have no idea what she was tracking to begin with.)

I'm just curious if this is something you all see in your puppies and if it's just a universal puppy/ GSD thing at around 4 months. If it isn't something that all pups automatically love to do, then we might start working on cultivating it and using it more in play because she seems to enjoy it so much!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Yes, it's normal to have their noses to the ground when they're young.

Re: having only treats when you should've had an entire chicken. I don't care what anyone says, a treat is a treat is a treat. At least, it is a treat if you don't give them treats for doing nothing. I don't give treats or snacks for nothing. In fact, I don't give snacks, period. When I do treat during training, it's always just some of my dog's normal kibble. I don't want her to think she gets a "special" treat for doing something specific.

But, then again, I have a dog that will eat ANYTHING. When I have had to give her medicine, like an antibiotic or something, I used the medicine as a treat, and she happily accepted it. Of course, she never savors anything, and swallows it whole, so she's never noticed they might taste like blah! LOL


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootYes, it's normal to have their noses to the ground when they're young.
> 
> Re: having only treats when you should've had an entire chicken. I don't care what anyone says, a treat is a treat is a treat. At least, it is a treat if you don't give them treats for doing nothing. I don't give treats or snacks for nothing. In fact, I don't give snacks, period. When I do treat during training, it's always just some of my dog's normal kibble. I don't want her to think she gets a "special" treat for doing something specific.
> 
> But, then again, I have a dog that will eat ANYTHING. When I have had to give her medicine, like an antibiotic or something, I used the medicine as a treat, and she happily accepted it. Of course, she never savors anything, and swallows it whole, so she's never noticed they might taste like blah! LOL


What I should have said is that I should have had an entire chicken for myself to celebrate!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootRe: having only treats when you should've had an entire chicken. I don't care what anyone says, a treat is a treat is a treat. At least, it is a treat if you don't give them treats for doing nothing. I don't give treats or snacks for nothing. In fact, I don't give snacks, period. When I do treat during training, it's always just some of my dog's normal kibble. I don't want her to think she gets a "special" treat for doing something specific.


Gotta disagree with you on that one. For me, the greater the response or level of difficulty and distraction, the higher the reward. In Rhena's case I would have totally jackpotted it, with treat/treat/treat/treat accompanied by exuberant praise. Woohoo, throw a verbal party!!! 

To call your dog and have him/her come to you in the house when there's nothing more interesting going on is not a big deal, so the reward can be nothing more than a "good girl" and a pat on the side. But outdoors, under HUGE distractions? Much higher value treats, and a lot of them. Once you've got great reliability under that circumstance you can start phasing out rewards, but you don't want your dog to realize that they just gave up what they would rather do and all they got was a piece of kibble they would have gotten for dinner anyway, and decide it's not worth it. Next time they might just blow you off. 

I train with kibble a lot, but for the big stuff, they get the big treats. The reward should be commensurate with the performance.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I use both stay and wait too. Stay means stay in that exact spot in whatever position I've asked for (sit-stay, down-stay), wait means you can do anything you want as long as you don't cross this invisible line on the floor/ground - usually wait here while I move ahead until I release you to join me, but it's also for when they're ahead of me on an off leash walk, and in that case it means don't move forward until I catch up and release you to continue walking. Coming back towards me in that case is perfectly okay with "wait" because they haven't moved forward and crossed that line, where in a "stay" it would not be acceptible. That's the best way I can think of to describe the difference.

Like MrLF, I use wait at doors, or in the car (Keefer has to wait in the car until I tell him he can jump out), any time that a formal position isn't required, I just need them to wait a moment. I do use different hand signals. Stay is like a traffic cop halt signal, upside down if the dog is next to you rather than in front of you. For wait, I use a sweeping motion, like an upside down windshield wiper, starting with my arm bent and my hand near my hip, and sweep it out to the side, sort of like drawing that invisible line in front of the dog's face. But like anything, you can use whatever hand signal makes sense to you.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

That's the difference between my current method of training and my old method. In my experience, creating different levels of treats that relate to the level of "difficulty" of tasks, for lack of a better term, in itself sets the stage for a dog to make its own choices. In psychology, it's referred to as "enabling" - creating a window for a certain behavior to occur.

What I mean is that if an off-lead recall results in a piece of steak, while a down-stay only results in a processed treat of some sort, I think even I would come charging on a recall, but perform a good down-stay only if I was really hungry. That is why with my current dog, I decided to make a point of maintaining one level of treat, using only the very same kibble that she gets with her meals.

To clarify, what I saw when using the method you're using is that it seemed like many dogs would decide whether a particular kind of treat was "worth the effort", so to speak, whereas my newer method has resulted in a dog that does not even think about it. She sees a piece of kibble as a treat, period.

Whether my new method is better than my old method, I cannot scientifically prove, as this is the first time that I've tried it, but the end result as been nothing less than stellar. I have a dog that at 7 months of age is literally 100% perfect on recalls under any situation she has been put in. Her off-lead performance is nothing short of outstanding and has been since she's been less than 4 months old.

I can now let her loose anywhere, including in a dog park with other people playing fetch (and my dog LOVES fetch), and when I call her name she does a "whiplash" turn to look at me, and if I tell her to come, she does so without any hesitation whatsoever. In fact, I don't even need treats for recalls any more.

I can do this at a beach with all kinds of distractions, in new environments around new animals, in places crowded with people, while she's swimming in the lake (which she loves), etc.

Looks like you're not far from where I am. If you ever want to see what I'm talking about in person, let me know, and I'll gladly meet with you so you can see for yourself. It really amazes me that one little modification to a method can pay off big.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Ideally there are a number of different treats used, and I'll explain why.

For many dogs, a single type of reward begins to lose its effectiveness. While some dogs may work for kibble, and work for kibble under all situations, that's rare. The best thing to do is use the lowest quality treat you can get away with, depending on the distractions involved in training at that time. For instance, in the shop here I can train with kibble and all the dogs will respond well. If I'm outside and there are moose out there (typical for Alaska) I better have something better than kibble to reward with, or the dogs may not continue to respond even under a higher level of distraction. 

It's not that the higher level of treats is used to bribe them - but when they do something especially difficult .. like ignoring the moose ... they get rewarded with better rewards than when they do something simple. I don't wave the turkey breast around in front of them to get them to ignore the moose .. *L* .. but they have learned that when they work harder, they receive a better reward. 

This is very effective if done properly. If you just give out great rewards all the time, the dogs don't have any greater urge to respond when the distractions are higher. 

Like I said, I use kibble for indoor work, meat for high level distraction, and for medium level distraction I may use kibble that is mixed with some meat (so that the meat helps raise the reward level of the kibble). I try to use only as high of a reward as necessary. 

Trick was trained using all rewards for the first six months I had her (didn't even use "no" with her - she was my first cross-over dog, from old style Koehler methods to positive reinforcement). By six months, she was doing a competitive heel, competitive retrieve with a dumbbell (even over a very low jump), recalling out of any situation, and her stays were beautiful too. She taught me a lot about positive training and the value of rewards, and I've gone on to use the same methods with several more of my own dogs (as well as hundreds who have gone through my classes).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest*The best thing to do is use the lowest quality treat you can get away with, depending on the distractions involved in training at that time. * For instance, in the shop here I can train with kibble and all the dogs will respond well. If I'm outside and there are moose out there (typical for Alaska) I better have something better than kibble to reward with, or the dogs may not continue to respond even under a higher level of distraction.
> 
> It's not that the higher level of treats is used to bribe them - but when they do something especially difficult .. like ignoring the moose ... they get rewarded with better rewards than when they do something simple. I don't wave the turkey breast around in front of them to get them to ignore the moose .. *L* .. but they have learned that *when they work harder, they receive a better reward.*


Don't mean to pick your post apart Melanie (







), I just wanted to highlight that particular portion because I totally agree, and train the same way. If you've got a dog that can be called off a deer (or a moose!) for kibble, then by all means, use kibble. But most dogs are going to need something higher value for that level of difficulty. 

And using a variety of treats (and other rewards) can work the same way as going to a variable reward system once a behavior is learned - they never know what they're going to get or when they're going to get it, so they work harder, just like someone at a slot machine who doesn't know when or how much the payoff will be keeps pulling that handle or pushing that button.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI use both stay and wait too. Stay means stay in that exact spot in whatever position I've asked for (sit-stay, down-stay), wait means you can do anything you want as long as you don't cross this invisible line on the floor/ground - usually wait here while I move ahead until I release you to join me, but it's also for when they're ahead of me on an off leash walk, and in that case it means don't move forward until I catch up and release you to continue walking. Coming back towards me in that case is perfectly okay with "wait" because they haven't moved forward and crossed that line, where in a "stay" it would not be acceptible. That's the best way I can think of to describe the difference.
> 
> Like MrLF, I use wait at doors, or in the car (Keefer has to wait in the car until I tell him he can jump out), any time that a formal position isn't required, I just need them to wait a moment. I do use different hand signals. Stay is like a traffic cop halt signal, upside down if the dog is next to you rather than in front of you. For wait, I use a sweeping motion, like an upside down windshield wiper, starting with my arm bent and my hand near my hip, and sweep it out to the side, sort of like drawing that invisible line in front of the dog's face. But like anything, you can use whatever hand signal makes sense to you.


Awesome, thanks for the additional info! You touched on a question I had.

Ditka is doing very well with his stays...Im a proud dad. Im looking for advice on something you touched on. Sometime when in a sit-stay he will lay down like he gets tired or wants to get more comfortable. At this point Ive let that happen as I just want him to pretty much not walk away







My question is, do you think NOW when this is so fresh to him would be a good time to mark the difference between down-stay and sit-stay or should I just keep working on any sort of stay and down the road once he is conditioned to that add more rules?

Thanks!

He is doing very well with the stay practice with his bowls and I can easily get it to the ground and then some. We also started working on door stays as it was not a wait...he wasnt coming with me. And then we worked on stay when Im in the pantry so I dont have his nose all over his food bag


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

With all due respect, it sounds like you actually use treats in much of your training, whereas my method involves very little treats in the way of treats. And, I believe therein lies the difference.

The ONLY time I use a treat is to teach something. I do not continue to treat once I know the dog knows what it's supposed to do. For example, when teaching Sit, I use a treat in the initial stages. But, once the dog knows it, I am done with treats for that command, which could be in mere hours or days. Of course, I might treat them as a surprise here and there, later, but once they've learned something treats are not used as rewards the way alot of other trainers use them. I prefer to use other things to motivate them.

Same thing with recalls, except recalls are initially trained over a couple of weeks, and after the first 5 or 6 sessions, treats are randomly alternated with a motivational toy during that time. While we don't have meese here, plural for moose







, we have many deer, turkeys, coyotes, etc., and not only can I call my dog back to me, I can also stop her from going to investigate to begin with. I don't carry treats any more at all, and only sometimes carry a motivational toy.

Also, you may notice that I never talk about training indoors. Why? Because unlike most trainers who prefer to start indoors, I like a dog's initial training to start outdoors whenever possible, because the natural environment of the outdoors of a quiet backyard or park has built-in distractions, which sets the stage for working later under heavy distraction. This makes distraction part of training right from the get-go, which I believe results in a much more responsive dog. Needless to say, heel and walking nicely on a leash makes the perfect starter command because it is outside, teaches a dog to follow you, pay attention to you, and teaches them that the leash is their friend. You kind of get 5 different trainings combined into one, with built-in distraction work.

The other thing that happens because of being outside is that treats are not the be-all, end-all, it's the mere act of being outdoors that dogs I've trained tend to cherish. In fact, with my style of training, many dogs only look for treats indoors, but once outside, treats don't matter. The dogs know that if they do well in their work, or obey quickly in real life, they might get to do something else enjoyable outside like play ball, or something.

I think this method of minimal treating is a hybrid of sorts, because when I did protection training, the last thing we wanted was dogs looking for food outside. Many dogs were trained to ignore steak on the lawn, and to take out people that tried to feed by hand.

So, naturally, we had to find methods other than food to reward dogs and over the years my methods took on the shape which I currently use.

Same thing with my preference to start initial training outdoors. While protection work also involves indoor protection, much is also trained outdoors, and it was during this phase that the idea struck me to try basic initial training outdoors first, instead of indoors, and that's where I discovered I could get a dog to learn faster and be more reliable by starting outdoors.

This is not to say that I never start training indoors. If a young pup is simply too overwhelmed, I might teach sit indoors, but once it has that understood, I quickly move him outside to proof the sit and show him the outside is GRRRRRREAT!

I, too, have professionally trained many (lost count) dogs in my life, and like I said before I believe creating different levels of treats based on difficulty of task invites other problems, but I guess the lesson here is there are many ways to skin a cat, so to each his own.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Dude, you're doing GREAT with Ditka. Congrats on all the work on the Stays. I bet you can make him wait for awhile while the bowl is sitting 6 feet from him, by tonight!









Re: lying down when in a sit-stay, it sounds like your pup knows Stay now, which is why he lies down. He thinks it might be a long one so he might as well get comfortable. While that's OK, my personal opinion is that if you continue to let that happen, it might become a habit.

Many dogs to this in the beginning, so don't fret. What you can do it issue the Sit command, or if you prefer to teach yet another command, Sit-up (meaning to move to a sitting position from a down position), and help the dog into a sit position and re-issue the Stay. When it starts to lie down again, catch it on the way down, say No, Sit, or Sit-up. Say the No in a dipping tone (which would be kind of like stating at one pitch than slurring down then back up), not a down tone (which would be scolding).

Remember, this is only ONE method, and while not gospel, it works for me.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks Mr LF! Its the moments like last night when I was giving him the stay command and I can see in his eyes that he knows what it means that makes it all worth while. He even gave me a little groan like OK dad, Ill stay. Im going to see how long I can make him stay for his bowl on the ground tonight with his 3rd meal.

Good points, thank you. I think I am going to work on sit-stay and down-stay since its still pretty fresh and I can take advantage of that. I think you are exactly right that he lays down because he knows what it means...and I also think that a lot of times I have him stay on the kitchen floor which is quite slick so its easier to lay down. Ill do this on a better surface for him as well as I think that will help.

Getting him to sit from a down will also be fun to start working on! He can stand from a sit and down right now but not go from a down to a sit.

Thanks again.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_Pike...and I also think that a lot of times I have him stay on the kitchen floor which is quite slick so its easier to lay down. Ill do this on a better surface for him as well as I think that will help.


Yep, I have a smooth tile floor, and my dog starts to slide backwards, too. It's cure isn't it? My dog now puts her back against a cupboard when she sits.

So, good idea about doing it on a better surface. That will help prevent the dog from becoming confused if it slides backwards into a down unintentionally, and correct him without knowing it's unintentional. With a rug under him, you can rule out if it is unintentional before you correct.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Now that I think about it his down from a sit-stay usually starts with his butt sliding backwards on the floor







Ill be sure to check on a better surface tonight.

And thanks again for the post on working on fetch, he really has it down now and LOVES that ball.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Im going to try and also start teaching him how to stack tomorrow on my work from home day or over the weekend. Im going to bring booze and patience to the session


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeNow that I think about it his down from a sit-stay usually starts with his butt sliding backwards on the floor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? He's got it now already? Don't you work? Just kidding. I've been neglecting my own work for 5 months now!









Are you still using two balls, or have you made the transition already to one ball? Wait, that didn't come out right, but you know what I mean.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

I should clarify, he has it down with 2...not at the point yet of just using one but now he brings the first back and then looks for me to throw the second by dropping the first.

Haha, yeah...Ive had to edit my posts about the fetch training as it sounded not quite right!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Two's good, though, still. Nothing wrong with that. Does he at least bring it all the way to you, now?

Also, did I mention that the medium Kong balls fit in the standard Chuck-it, so you don't have to get slobber all over you? I wouldn't introduce the Chuck-it again just yet, not until you're down to one ball, but just thought I'd share that for your near future.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

9 times out of 10 he does. When he doesnt he responds pretty quickly when I make a big deal of the second one









You sure did and thanks for that. Right now he is using the chuck it balls and once he is big enough to destroy those Ill get the medium kong for the chuck its we already own. I also am getting a ball with a rope and handle for reward/tugging as I think Im going to get him involved in Schutzhund and Ive seen them used a lot at the training location I visited.

Spoiled dog.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

You know what? If he's bringing it back that often, you might want to start trying to pick up the first ball he brings back. So, instead of throwing the second one, when he brings back the first one, if he doesn't drop it, just use the second one to encourage him to drop the first one, and when he does, just pick up the first one and throw that one again.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

If you plan on competing in obedience, a sit-stay is a sit-stay and a down-stay is a down-stay. If you just want a well mannered companion dog and don't really care if the dog is sitting or laying down as long as they remain in the stay, then don't worry about it. If it's important to you, start fixing it now. I agree that having him sit on a carpeted floor or rug is easier for him to remain in a sit than on a hard floor that can be slippery, so that might be a place to start.

For me, sit is sit regardless of whether it's from a stand or a down, so I don't use two different commands. If my dog were in a sit stay and went into a down I'd use a negative marker (oops! or ah ah!) and tell her to sit again. I wouldn't reward this because she broke position. 

This is a case where using a hand signal, or if necessary, a food lure for a couple of times is handy if Ditka isn't responding to a verbal sit command yet from the down position. That just means he hasn't generalized the command. Give the sit command, wait a few beats, and then remind him with the hand signal or lure. You might want to spend some time working on this separately from the stay until he's fairly reliable. 

I like an automatic sit and wait at doors, so I usually don't cue it after the first few times. I stop at the door and wait for the sit, then I reach for the door. If the dog breaks, I pull my hand back and wait. I do this as many times as necessary until the dog remains in a sit. I touch the knob and if the dog breaks, I pull my hand back and wait for the sit again. If I turn the knob and start to open the door and the dog breaks, I close the door and pull my hand back and wait for the sit again. I don't repeat myself, I put the responsibility on the dog to learn the rules and to comply with them. 

Once I can get the door all the way open, (be ready to body block if necessary!), I'll release the dog to go through. I like eye contact too, so fairly early on, I'll require that the dog sit and look at me before I even start reaching for the door, and if they break at any point before the release, I wait for the sit and eye contact before proceeding. It's amazing how fast even young puppies learn what makes the door open. I don't do this for going outside during housebreaking where time is of the essence, but you can do it for coming back in the house, or for going out on walks.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Awesome! Great tips, thanks. Pretty much all you said is exactly what I was thinking of and how I started to and will continue to teach those things. I did exactly that with the door...that took a lot of patience on my part!

I also found that my negative verbal marker is "ah, ah"....I caught myself using it alot when he would try to break from a stay...he caught onto its meaning very quickly! I got that moan I mentioned right after that negative marker









And another note to self, I need to start using stricter hand commands as well...I havent been paying much attention to what I am using if anything at all.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Yes, I do use a lot of treats in training. But that doesn't mean that I neglect the other motivators - depending on the dog. My shepherds are highly motivated by fetch games and Trick is easily rewarded with a quickly thrown snowball. However, since I work with numerous breeds, I've had to find general methods that transfer well between breeds that are not toy or ball motivated at ALL. My chows couldn't care less if I throw something for them - unless it's food. Food is universal to pretty much ALL dogs. Even those picky eaters out there can be motivated with the right treat at the right time.

So while I emphasize treats, it can be also thought of as rewards of any kind- whatever motivates that particular dog. I've used a male dog's desire to go pee on a bush as a reward. I often use the dog's desire to go visit someone/something as a reward. It all depends on the dog (and the breed, to be honest). You learn a lot when you work a lot with non-obedience breeds .. *L*

As far as working outdoors - in the summers, nearly all of my training is outdoors. But in the winter here it can be 30 degrees below zero, or 10 above with a windchill of 30 below (worse than an ambient -30). And it's dark much of the time. So we train indoors quite a bit. I try to get the young shepherd out for a good frisbee session 2-3 times a day when the temperatures above zero, and we'll throw in some stays and recalls during those sessions. But it's much easier for both dog and trainer to concentrate when toes, fingers and noses aren't freezing.

But even with Khana (my four year old chow), I did as much as I could outdoors even though she arrived in Alaska at the end of December. We worked on off-leash recalls outdoors several times a week - as much as I could manage. Luckily she came equipped with a considerably heavy coat .. *L* .. thinner-coated dogs just don't do well in winter training up here.

Most of the dogs I work with are pet dogs, owned by the general public and not dogs that are specifically purchased for work or competition. These are a large variety of breeds or mixes of breeds and it's a far different situation than someone who primarily trains protection dogs or police dogs or SAR dogs. Those dogs are generally bred FOR that task. So when I give advice to people here in this forum (or other forums) I try to base it on the thought that they have a home companion and not a dog that was specifically bred to be a working dog. 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

KC_Pike - I highly recommend that you separate the concept of a sit-stay and a down-stay for your dog (in case you haven't .. I'm not sure at this point). Even though it may not seem to matter now, I've run into many people over the years who regret not making things more clear to their dogs when they first started. And then later on they find a specific need for a specific behavior and the dog is already all mixed up. So teaching that "stay" in a sit means remain sitting, and "stay" in a down means remain down, is likely going to be helpful later on. 

After all, you may get bit with the obedience bug and find yourself wanting to compete!









Like Cassidys Mom, I use the same command ("sit") for my dogs whether they're sitting from a standing position, or rising into a sit from a down position. However, I do train them separately. For the dog, it's completely two different behaviors. They don't see "sit" as a position like we do - they see it as a movement initially. So when we teach them sit from a stand, they have learned to drop the butt to the ground. When they lay down and we tell them "sit", in their minds it makes no sense as it's impossible to drop their butt any farther .. *L* .. so we have to teach them that "sit" means the position of sitting, not the movement. 

I do this with a lure, initially, and fade the lure as quickly as possible (the longer you use a lure, especially a highly desirable one like a treat or toy, the more the dog needs that lure to understand the behavior). For a sit from a down, I'll use a treat to raise the dog's head up slowly and as soon as he's sitting, I mark that behavior (I use an enthusiastic "YESSS!") and I give the reward. After a couple of times with the treat, I leave out the treat and just use my hand in the same position as when I had a treat. When the dog follows my hand up into a sitting position, I mark the behavior and then give a reward from my pocket or a shelf or table. I try to get treats off of me as quickly as possible, too.

Having a good surface for the dogs to work on is important because they can't help it if they slip into a down on a slippery surface. A bit of rug or even a beach towel will help. Now is the time to make everything as clear as possible, because any confusion the dog learns now will carry through to later training. Most dogs revert back to what they initially learned (right or wrong!) when they get nervous or confused, so getting the correct behaviors trained early is important.

Good luck!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

THANK you, Im always amazed on what good advice I get here









Im going to seperate for sure and we did a little work on that tonight. I think he is getting it! So it will be either sit-stay or down-stay with no sit-slip-tired-down stay









Im getting bit by the obediance bug already! I just hope that my gf has the patience to deal with me and my dog rules!

Im also now using the door mat in the kitchen, very stable surface and I believe its 4 by 6 feet.

You touched on something else bouncing around in my head. Ive been using a clicker and treating for his training. As mentioned earlier by a couple of people in this thread I should move off of this habit as soon as I can and should have earlier. Ive been doing this a little bit but I need to improve on it. So when there is no food lure for the pup to behave do I just use my voice and give a great verbal reward with a click? Or do I also start to move away from the clicker as well?

What Ive been doing with this is just to sometimes use no click or treat and just say good boy. Or I have strung together a sit and stand and then treat...so Im chipping away at it but just want to make sure Im going in the right direction. He seems to always respond with no treat EXCEPT on his down...for that he seems to be at a point where he needs the food to follow down. I try about 50/50 food lure and the times I dont take him down with the treat I either use none at all or just keep it in the other hand. But like I said many times he just looks at my hand, sees no treat, and seems to think well Im not going down there then!

Thanks again to everyone who has helped me here...


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

And after reading your post again I believe I see what I should do with the treats...it seems like Im headed in the right direction but I need to keep using treats less and less and only bring them back when he seems needs a reminder or reinforcement. And it seems like I just give a verbal reward when not treating.

Im going to work on the sit from down tomorrow and Ill post my progress here!


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootYou know what? If he's bringing it back that often, you might want to start trying to pick up the first ball he brings back. So, instead of throwing the second one, when he brings back the first one, if he doesn't drop it, just use the second one to encourage him to drop the first one, and when he does, just pick up the first one and throw that one again.


This I tried tonight and it worked well. The second one at this point is just to get him to drop the first and then I quickly grab that first ball and throw it. The 2nd is now just a decoy or a lure


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestYes, I do use a lot of treats in training. But that doesn't mean that I neglect the other motivators - depending on the dog. My shepherds are highly motivated by fetch games and Trick is easily rewarded with a quickly thrown snowball. However, since I work with numerous breeds, I've had to find general methods that transfer well between breeds that are not toy or ball motivated at ALL. My chows couldn't care less if I throw something for them - unless it's food. Food is universal to pretty much ALL dogs. Even those picky eaters out there can be motivated with the right treat at the right time.
> 
> So while I emphasize treats, it can be also thought of as rewards of any kind- whatever motivates that particular dog. I've used a male dog's desire to go pee on a bush as a reward. I often use the dog's desire to go visit someone/something as a reward. It all depends on the dog (and the breed, to be honest). You learn a lot when you work a lot with non-obedience breeds .. *L*
> 
> ...


I guess your weather would indeed dictate much of what you can do, and it's good to hear that you've come up with different ways to accommodate for that.

FWIW, I, too, do not only train for a specific purpose, I actually started out training obedience. It's just that as time went on, I discovered I had a natural aptitude for communicating with dogs, and I started helping out some LEOs with some agitation, and one thing led to another and I eventually started training police dogs, and later graduated to personal protection which I find to be more rewarding because to me, PPDs are a more practical application, what with the mix of companion and protection characteristics fo such dogs.

But, as you are probably already aware, a BIG part of training PPDs and K9s requires absolute obedience compliance, lest you end up with a powerful, yet uncontrollable dog. Yikes! So, it was at that time that I realized that the standard obedience work that is practiced for typical pets wasn't going to cut it.

Over time I was able to use some knowledge and experience I had gained in that field to better train companion type dogs. I'm sure I expect more from a dog than the next person; that's rather obvious when I see how other dog owners are. Of course, there are the clueless people, but even those that have done the proper rearing and socilaizing and training don't require as much adherence from their dogs as I seem to.

While I like hearing all the different training methods people use, sometimes it's hard for me to keep my mouth shut, because even though I know each of us has our own agendas and perspective, when I hear someone trying to accomplish something and I think I can help, I probably speak too soon. It's also tough to word things in ways that somebody doesn't take offense to, and it's become obvious to me that there are also quite a few folks that troll these forums looking to poke holes in theories, and are quick to jump on anything that might not have been worded quite right, even though some things can't possibly be described down to each finite detail in a post. 

I really appreciate the care in which you took to address my last post, and from now on, I'm going to make it a point to try and pinpoint what somewhat means in their post better, so that I can word my posts as well as you worded yours.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Melanie has a great point, even if it's not a big deal to you right now, having a distinct sit stay and down stay may be something you'll wish you had someday, and it would be much easier to train it now than to fix it later. 

I teach the sit from a down exactly the way she does, and I love her explanation about how it's completely different for the dog. That's one of those things that isn't intuitive for humans, but makes perfect sense once you understand it.

Will he follow your hand in the down motion without a treat in it? That would be the first step without the food lure, and if you haven't tried it yet, now is the time. I usually have the food out of my hand after the first training session or two and use the lure motion as my hand signal, then reward from the other hand. If he doesn't drop into a down immediately, give him a moment to work it out, and when he finally does, use the very enthusiastic marker that Melanie describes.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeAnd after reading your post again I believe I see what I should do with the treats...it seems like Im headed in the right direction but I need to keep using treats less and less and only bring them back when he seems needs a reminder or reinforcement. And it seems like I just give a verbal reward when not treating.


Technical training methods aside, there ain't nothing wrong with a whole lot of praise, hugs and kisses, either! Sometimes we get so caught up in the science of training that we forget, even WE like to feel cherished once in awhile, too, so go ahead and give the neighbors something to gossip about and substitute in some good old fashioned loving!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeYou touched on something else bouncing around in my head. Ive been using a clicker and treating for his training. As mentioned earlier by a couple of people in this thread I should move off of this habit as soon as I can and should have earlier. Ive been doing this a little bit but I need to improve on it. So when there is no food lure for the pup to behave do I just use my voice and give a great verbal reward with a click? Or do I also start to move away from the clicker as well?


Ideally, if you're using a clicker or a marker word (like I use "YESS!") then you ALWAYS (NO exceptions!!) follow that click or word with a reward. You want to keep that sound as high-powered as possible in the dog's mind, so that he always knows that the sound means he's done what you want.

However, that reward doesn't always have to be a treat. It just has to be something that is properly rewarding <u>for your dog</u>. Some dogs do great with a toy suddenly pulled out and thrown, some love a good game of tug, some love to be scratched and rubbed. You just have to figure out what motivates your dog, what he likes, and how to incorporate it into your training.

I can do a lot of reward with toys with my shepherds. My chows love a good scratch, with the fingernails way up under the fur so the skin gets scratched. The shepherds do NOT like that, though! So it's very dog-specific as to what they find rewarding.

So once you've established that every time you mark a behavior with a click or your marker word (or bridge word, as some call it), your dog will be looking for that sound. Once he hears it, he will want his reward and he may stop doing the behavior (like when you click when he's in a sit - he may jump up in anticipation of the reward). There's nothing wrong with this. Marking the behavior with the sound that tells the dog a reward is coming also means that you're telling the dog that the behavior can stop.

Now, there are times when you don't want to stop the behavior, but you want to give some encouragement. This is good! So you use other sounds to let your dog know that they're on the right track. For example, when I'm heeling I will praise my dog frequently at first .. "what a good girl! Wow, that's wonderful! Excellent job!" and then at a perfect moment, I'll say "YESSS!" and give the reward immediately after that. All those other words don't equal a reward, they just help create enthusiasm and understanding in the dog.

With a stay, you may want to go back and treat at times without having the dog break. I often do this especially when I'm training in a place of high distraction (like a training class where there are numerous other dogs around). I will quietly go to my dog, praising in a low, calm, soft voice (no excitement or it could cause my dog to break) and then when I'm all the way to my dog, I'll give a treat while saying "goooood! Stay!" - and then I'll step back again. The treat doesn't end the behavior because I didn't use a click or marker word, nor did I give a release word - I just used "keep going" words and a little reward to encourage the dog even more.

Our dogs are so capable of learning, far more capable than most people realize. But it takes observation, patience, consistency, kindness and a belief in your dog to have it all work. Every dog I have teaches me something new about training, about dogs, and about myself. It's a great experience and I'm glad to see others stepping into it!

Oh, and obedience competition can be terribly addictive too .. *L* .. I started out with a GSD I was training for SAR (I was an EMT with the local emergency group) and somehow we ended up in a competition ring, with that dog going on to earn numerous obedience titles. And I was hooked! It's an expensive hobby but it's fun and I'd rather be at a dog show than pretty much any other social gathering I can think of!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootWhile I like hearing all the different training methods people use, sometimes it's hard for me to keep my mouth shut, because even though I know each of us has our own agendas and perspective, when I hear someone trying to accomplish something and I think I can help, I probably speak too soon. It's also tough to word things in ways that somebody doesn't take offense to, and it's become obvious to me that there are also quite a few folks that troll these forums looking to poke holes in theories, and are quick to jump on anything that might not have been worded quite right, even though some things can't possibly be described down to each finite detail in a post.
> 
> I really appreciate the care in which you took to address my last post, and from now on, I'm going to make it a point to try and pinpoint what somewhat means in their post better, so that I can word my posts as well as you worded yours.


While I don't always agree with you, there ARE times that I do .. *L* .. and we're all entitled to our opinions and to relate our experiences.

I think my main goal, when posting to an online forum like this, where the written word is open to various interpretations, is to basically "do no evil". I am very hesitant to ever recommend corrective methods online because of all the years I've spent teaching pet people. People find it much easier, overall, to only notice the "bad" things their dogs do and then they often want to use punishments to "fix" those things. The problem is that punishments, done wrong, can be pretty horrendous for the dog and an absolute relationship destroyer. It's hard enough for people to do proper corrections when they're being shown, face-to-face, in a private lesson. So you'll see me promoting a LOT of positive training even though I may use some corrections myself that I would only want to recommend to someone if I were there to help them. 

I feel the same way about corrective collars. While I think that there's a proper time and place for them, hand a corrective collar to many people and it becomes an abusive item once on the dog. It's not that the people are BAD, it's that they don't understand, they get frustrated, they get mad because they're stressed and tired and can't figure out why their dog doesn't behave like the ones in obedience competitions. 

Anyhow, that's what I'm all about. Got to love the dogs, treat them right, do the best you can for them with the least amount of pain or discomfort, and provide them with a great life (and them provide you with the same). So I'm all about positive first, corrections only if necessary. And I think that most of the time the arguments you'll see in training posts have to do with a chasm between those who want people to try positive first, and those who recommend corrections to someone who may not have a real clue how to correct properly.

Okay, off my soapbox .. *L* .. I think most of us have the same end goals in mind, just traveling on different roads. And I think that most of us truly love our dogs.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
... I'd be lost without my dogs ..


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomMelanie has a great point, even if it's not a big deal to you right now, having a distinct sit stay and down stay may be something you'll wish you had someday, and it would be much easier to train it now than to fix it later.
> 
> I teach the sit from a down exactly the way she does, and I love her explanation about how it's completely different for the dog. That's one of those things that isn't intuitive for humans, but makes perfect sense once you understand it.
> 
> Will he follow your hand in the down motion without a treat in it? That would be the first step without the food lure, and if you haven't tried it yet, now is the time. I usually have the food out of my hand after the first training session or two and use the lure motion as my hand signal, then reward from the other hand. If he doesn't drop into a down immediately, give him a moment to work it out, and when he finally does, use the very enthusiastic marker that Melanie describes.


Perfect, I look forward to trying the sit from a down today!

When I use my down hand marker most of the time he will follow it and then Ill treat from the other hand. I think that the problem occurs after a few times when he realizes the food isnt in the down hand so he hesitates. At that point I sometimes get frustrated that he has now stopped and probably go too quickly BACK to using a treat in my down motion hand. Human needs more patience.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks Melanie and the gang and Mr LF.

Ill start working more praise in as a reward and Im also making him do some work outside before he gets his ball or rag. Inside I also make him work for his bully stick so I guess I am working in different rewards. I do need to make sure I click not only with treats but also when Im using toys or games.

Ive been doing that for his stay work, going back and treating and saying good stay but I must admit I have clicked when I go back. Ill stop doing this and as you noted just reward and not click so he doesnt think the behavior is over!

This can be a lot of fun, seeing the work go in and then the behavior you want come out is very satisfying!

Thanks again for the help everyone.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Ditka quite honestly is a clean slate when it comes to proper walking. Ive had the best intentions for a while to start working on this but with everything else to train, work, life, etc I havent been able to get to it







All Ive done is some free walking on my left side by using a treat to lure him in class and at home.

Rhena mentioned that it would be a good idea to start now as Im going to start using a front clip harness and this fresh start for the pup is a good time to mark a change in walking for him!

With this are there any threads that I could look at and pick a method to start using today? Ill stick to whatever plan that might be best from here on out even if it means going back to 50 yard walks while he learns his manners!

Thanks all.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomI teach the sit from a down exactly the way she does, and I love her explanation about how it's completely different for the dog. That's one of those things that isn't intuitive for humans, but makes perfect sense once you understand it.


Here is a video of our 4th or 5th time trying the sit from a down, he picked it up so quickly! Amazing dogs!

Sorry for the video quality, it looks like my camera decided to make the video look like it was shot in the 1920's.

Thanks for the tips on this, its now added to our regular routine of work!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za4RehkRcjE


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeDitka quite honestly is a clean slate when it comes to proper walking. Ive had the best intentions for a while to start working on this but with everything else to train, work, life, etc I havent been able to get to it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ive been looking around and the change of direction technique seems to be very popular! This is an example of what I found...how does everyone feel about this technique? Thanks!

*I do this 20 minutes EVERY day (masi is 10mths old by the way)(per my new
trainer),,you may end up 'dizzy' from this,,but it does work in the end..

Start out with no distractions,,6ft leash, and I have Masi on a mini prong) holding
only the 'loop' of the leash,,no talking at all, start walking like your on a mission
),,if she pulls (since this is what yours is doing),,the minute she is ahead of you,
change directions,,KEEP changing directions if she forges, and absolutely NOT 
TALKING,,(dogs tend to not like being ignored, the eventual premise is,she is gonna 
wonder what the heck your doing?LOL) 

If she lags, pick up the pace,,it's imperative that you keep changing directions when
she gets ahead of you, do this for 20 minutes straight, at the end, whether she's
been good or bad,,stop the exercise and praise her ))..

I worked on this for a week daily, with masi, and it mentally, as well as somewhat
physically wore her (AND ME!) out,,but got her up atleast next to me and not
pulling..*


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

IME, the direction you turn is most important with this method, which does work, by the way. For example, if you heel your dog on the left, and when it forges ahead you turn 180 degrees to your right, the dog must speed up because it is on the outside of the turn, which can actually exacerbate the condition of the dog always wanting to be in front.

On the other hand, if you turn INTO the dog, left, the dog must slow down and if the turn is a full 180 degrees, the dog must actually stop or even back up a little.

When I first started employing this technique many moons ago, I would always turn right because it was easier to turn right that it was to turn left and not trip over the dog, or step on its feet. The end result was a dog that ALWAYS positioned itself with its shoulders just ahead of my left leg, which I HATE. Such positioning always makes me feel like I need to speed up to get in front of the dog if I want to turn left, which in turn causes the dog to speed up, which defeats the whole purpose.

I'd prefer to have a dog's head in line with my left leg so that when walking I can turn left without having to always pay attention so as to not trip on the dog. I believe my dog should pay attention to me more than I have to pay attention to IT, when walking, so we can have leisurely walking, so to speak.

Suffice it to say that I now make a conscious effort to ensure I turn INTO the dog when training them to not pull, and heel instead. And, if it means bumping the dog, so be it. Speaking of which, you want to try to make it so that your right knee comes across in the turn and bumps the dog, not your left, because if you bump it with your left knee it tends to just push the dog over to the left, instead of it encouraging the dog to take a position slightly behind where it is, does that make sense?

Again, just MY opinion.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks Mr LF...that makes sense! Before reading this I probably would have been turning all over the place so this helps refine my plan.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I just edited the post slightly to be more concise with my words, so you might want to re-read it.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFootI just edited the post slightly to be more concise with my words, so you might want to re-read it.


Thanks, Ill check it out.

If I got it on video would you mind taking a look and letting me know your thoughts?


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Dude, do you even HAVE to ask? I would LOVE to see you in action with Ditka. Did you upload it, yet?


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

I try to be polite and ask first, Id love all the help/comments I can get









It might be tomorrow or even this weekend...I need my g/f back in town so she can video it without it looking awful like the one I posted above.


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

The "change of direction" is kind of an old style method of teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash. If you think about it, every time you change direction and walk in the other way, the dog ends up with a correction (getting popped as you reach the end of the leash). While this does work - corrections DO work in training - it's certainly not the best way to build trust in your dog. Your dog learns to follow you because he's worried about getting yanked around.

A more gentle method - which may take a tad bit longer, but has great results - is to refuse to move unless your dog offers you a loose leash. You can set the parameters you want .. if the "loose leash" to you means that he needs to be in the vicinity of your left side, then always reinforce that spot and not when the leash is simply loose. If "loose leash" to you means that he's just not to pull but can still be ahead of you a bit, then reinforce for that. What you want to do is be consistent.

Once you decide where you want him to be (personally I like the left side, but I'm always thinking ahead to competition heeling), you fill your pockets with rewards (treats, toys, whatever you're using - I like treats because they're quick and easy to use), put a leash on your dog's flat collar (I don't recommend a corrective collar for this), and go out into a place with few distractions. Initial training should ALWAYS be in a place with few distractions.

Then you take a deep breath and think "patience .. patience .. let him use his little brain and figure this out, let me be patient!" .. *LOL* Let him go out on the leash and explore while you stay in one place. Your feet don't move forward an INCH while he's away from you. Eventually he will get bored (there's only so much to see in the short distance on a leash, when in a low distraction area) and he'll either come back to you or at least glance at you. THIS is what you mark (click or word) and reward. Praise, too, as he's getting his reward. You want him to start thinking "oh .. I pay attention to you and I get rewarded .. wow, I like this!". 

Once he figures out that looking at you gets rewarded, and coming to you gets rewarded, start encouraging him to your left side. Smile, pat your side, let him know that that's where you want him to be. And when he steps into the "right" position, immediately mark that and praise/reward. 

Then try taking a step forward. If he's typical, he'll move out of position and get distracted again. That's fine - he has to make these "mistakes" in order for the learning to take place. Don't fret, don't be frustrated, just think about how he's figuring things out. Stop moving if he gets out of the position you want him in. Stand there quietly, smiling, and again mark/praise/reward when he comes back to you, and mark/praise/reward when you encourage him back to your left side.

Then take another step. Initially it's step by step (and we humans have problems with this slow stuff, I know, but your pup needs to have time to figure out what works - he will do his best to figure out how to get the praise and rewards, you just have to continue to be clear and consistent). As you do this, you will find he is less motivated to go away from you, and you can mark/praise/reward any time he stays with you. In that first session, you will probably get to the point where you can take a step or two and he will stay by your side. You shouldn't expect absolute attention (like competition heeling dogs) because this is just a "walk on a loose leash" exercise, not competition heeling. But he should start understanding that walking by your side means that he will be praised and rewarded. 

As he gets better, you can start adding in your "keep going" praise BEFORE you click/mark the behavior. Like I talked about before .. when he stays by your side as you're walking, chatter at him a bit about what a wonderful boy he is, how smart he is, how perfect he is .. *L* .. and then click/mark while he's still at your side and give the reward. The amount of time between the clicking/marking behaviors can be gradually lengthened, but if he starts to regress you're probably going too fast for him.

The idea here is to build a high desire in him to stay by your side. Once you build this, it will become habit. You'll gradually introduce more distractions and every time you add a new distraction (i.e. "change the criteria") you will need to go back to step one - letting him explore a bit and waiting for him to return attention to you, then marking that behavior. This is normal, and he'll go through this quickly if the early training has been solid. But every new distraction changes things for him .. when the situation is different, he may truly not understand commands that he knew under a different scenario. Dogs do not generalize commands to new areas until they've been taught those commands under a variety of situations. So when you give a "sit" command to a dog when you're out in public, and he doesn't sit and you're thinking "woah, I KNOW he knows this 'cause he does it every time at home!" - he's honestly not blowing you off, he simply doesn't understand that "sit" means sit anywhere. In his mind, the command is paired with the surroundings and the concept of generalizing those commands to other places has to be taught to a dog.

As you're working through all of this loose leash walking/training, there will be times when it does get frustrating. But if you can keep in mind that you're shaping your dog's mind, his way of thinking, his desire to please you, his understanding of how to earn his "paycheck" .. well, hopefully you will see that in the long run you're building the best possible relationship you can have with him. You have your dog for his lifetime, and there is plenty of time to do the teaching you want to do. Nothing needs to be hurried.

As far as corrections go with the loose leash walking .. once you've properly taught him that walking by your side is what you want, you may need to add in corrections to make him understand that he does need to do this - it isn't optional - but that he will still be rewarded for it. I don't pull rewards quickly from my dogs. I LIKE to reward them. I LIKE that they are enthusiastic to work with me and that when I go out in my shop I have them bouncing around my legs all wanting to work with me (something you don't see much in chows, I will admit). I don't mind that they are interested in what I can give them .. I prefer that over having a dog that is primarily interested in avoiding something uncomfortable or painful.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
By the way, I would love to see your videos but I'm unfortunately on the world's slowest dial-up .. a typical video takes well over an hour to download for me.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks Melanie, another great way to go for the same goal. As all Ive done so far has been positive training Im going to start with this approach as Ive heard good things as well about the "be like a tree method" and then rewarding. Since he has no idea at this point what Im looking for when walking Ill get a base with this positive approach and down the road I will look to add in some change of direction work for corrections as he will also be older/bigger at that point and it sounds like a better fit then.

So 2 approaches fitting together nicely. Thanks again to you and Mr LF! I figure I need to show him in a positive way what I want before I correct him.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuestThe "change of direction" is kind of an old style method of teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash. If you think about it, every time you change direction and walk in the other way, the dog ends up with a correction (getting popped as you reach the end of the leash). While this does work - corrections DO work in training - it's certainly not the best way to build trust in your dog. Your dog learns to follow you because he's worried about getting yanked around.


I'm so glad that you pointed out why sit from a down and sit from a stand are different. Sometimes without a hand signal and while in a down, Juno would try to move her butt down by pushing it to the side. Now it makes sense why this is so confusing for her and why lures and hand signals might be necessary for a while longer!

I have a question about the method you use for loose leash walking. It's sort of long....

So far we've walked Juno (4+ months) on either her back clip harness or more recently her front clip harness. We haven't used her flat collar at all -- the trainer recommended not using it because we'll start to desensitize her neck. I've been working pretty long and hard on the harnesses to get a loose leash walk. I've used the "be a tree" thing and then I'll sometimes take her to a big open space and use the change direction. It was slowly working but was SO slow as to be a little frustrating -- in part I think because we allowed her to be in front of us as long as she wasn't pulling and this allowed her to be more distractable and was making it hard to keep her on the left side.

We arrived early to a class recently and the trainer noticed that we had a new harness (front clip). She asked if we wanted to take advantage of the new equipment and the time and have a quick walking lesson before class even though it's something that she doesn't cover until week 4. 

She took Juno and walked her inside. The moment Juno walked in front of her leg, she used the harness/ leash to stop her, pivoted in front of her and gave her a harsh verbal correction. She then moved Juno outside and did more of this and then handed the leash to us to complete the walk in a similar way.

She said that this would work for a few reasons -- 1) that as strangers and trainers, they could be extra intimidating 2) the change in walking expectations would be sudden and dramatic, giving Juno as sort of "oh, I must be an adult now" attitude. She said that we needed to be serious and consistent for this to work. 

I have a hard time being intimidating to Juno, but I tried it yesterday morning and it works in the sense that she stays at my left side and looks up at me regularly. There are times, however, when she's clearly reluctant to walk -- as if she's not clear on what's OK and what she'll be corrected for so she doesn't want to do anything. A little luring usually gets her going and it seems like she testing to figure out what's allowed and what's not. 

I have some concerns about the "trust" in our relationship that you mentioned and whether or not walks are actually fun for her. My husband uses the technique too and is less worried about it. He feels that she does, at some point, need to grow up and get a little serious. I'd love to hear some opinions on the different sides of this coin. (Especially since this isn't really a very "harsh" correction -- no slip collar, no prong -- mostly verbal and being physically intimidating.)

The other thing that I'm wondering about is that we've still been saving her flat collar. We'd like to keep walking her on the harness because she gets a good amount of her exercise that way. I was wondering if using the technique that Melanie describes above simultaneously (but in distinct training sessions) would work (i.e. go for walks on the harness and then work in different places on the reward-only on the flat collar.) Would this get confusing. Are the two different restraints (harness versus collar) different enough that she'll view them as two distinct lessons? I'd also like to be able to use the flat collar to teach heeling (which we've already started a little). We're not heeling for competition -- just for walking through crowds or crossing streets.

Any thoughts or advice would be great! This has been a really interesting discussion about the different philosophies of puppy training...


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

I have been following this thread and have loved the tips and advice from folks, especially MrLF and Melanie. With Rhena’s last post, I figured to pipe in for a moment. 

MY first reaction is I have concerns with the methods your current trainer is advocating as it seems to be focused on harsh corrections-verbal and with leach correctons. At four months you should be teaching your dog not correcting like this. There shouldn’t be the need for “harsh verbal corrections” at this point, it’s way too early. 

Also not sure how you would “desensitize” the neck unless you are starting with harsh corrections.



> Quote:She said that this would work for a few reasons -- 1) that as strangers and trainers, they could be <u>*extra intimidating *</u>2) the change in walking expectations would be sudden and dramatic, giving Juno as sort of "oh, I must be an adult now" attitude. She said that we needed to be <u>*serious and consistent *</u>for this to work.
> 
> I have a hard time being <u>*intimidating*</u> to Juno, but I tried it yesterday morning and it works in the sense that she stays at my left side and looks up at me regularly. There are times, however, when she's <u>*clearly reluctant*</u> to walk -- as if she's not clear on what's OK and what she'll be corrected for so she doesn't want to do anything. A little luring usually gets her going and it seems like she testing to figure out what's allowed and what's not.


Intimidating leads to reluctance which not what the goal should be here. You want your dog to want to heel with you and to enjoy being with you and pleasing you. That word should never come into play or out of the mouth of a trainer.

And you want to change that word serious to fun and consistent.



> Quote:I have some concerns about the "trust" in our relationship that you mentioned and whether or not walks are actually fun for her. My husband uses the technique too and is less worried about it. He feels that she does, at some point, need to grow up and get a little serious. I'd love to hear some opinions on the different sides of this coin. (Especially since this isn't really a very "harsh" correction -- no slip collar, no prong -- mostly verbal and being physically intimidating.)


If you have these types of concerns, it points to you being uncomfortable with the methods you are using-and that is valid. Turn your attention to the methods and advice previously posted. It leads you to a more positive approach of teaching and building your bond.

Those two comments, tell me you may want to step back a bit and look at how you going about your training with your dog. They are valid concerns. This should be fun for both of you and your dog. My overall reaction is that you need to look for a different training outlet. This should be a teaching environment and not a "Correction-intimidating" type approach at this age.


ETA: As for your husband, you may want to have him go through this thread and then have a discussion. It's really important for both of you to work with your puppy in a consistent manner, if possible.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks for your quick response!


> Originally Posted By: Everett54
> Also not sure how you would “desensitize” the neck unless you are starting with harsh corrections.


What the trainer was concerned about what that Juno was a BIG puller from the time we got her (3 mos) -- especially around dogs and other distractions. The trainer was concerned that her own pulling would desensitize her. 



> Originally Posted By: Everett54
> MY first reaction is I have concerns with the methods your current trainer is advocating as it seems to be focused on harsh corrections-verbal and with leach correctons. At four months you should be teaching your dog not correcting like this. There shouldn’t be the need for “harsh verbal corrections” at this point, it’s way too early.
> 
> Those two comments, tell me you may want to step back a bit and look at how you going about your training with your dog. They are valid concerns. This should be fun for both of you and your dog. My overall reaction is that you need to look for a different training outlet. This should be a teaching environment and not a "Correction-intimidating" type approach at this age.


At what age do you advocate to start using corrections? (If ever at all.) For her training sessions we use praise and rewards (with more gentle "ah, ah!" corrections when she, for example, breaks a stay) but there are definitely times around the house that we correct her much more sternly. We've used a sharper "no!" for when she used to go for our shoes or started to get into some chemicals under the sink. I've used a much sharper "no!" (and getting physically in between) when she's gone for my two year old neice. Of course, playing with my neice is all in good fun for Juno who thinks she's a playmate -- but my first instinct is to protect my neice. 

I'm curious about what age people think corrections are necessary -- or under what circumstances they should be used.



> Originally Posted By: Everett54
> ETA: As for your husband, you may want to have him go through this thread and then have a discussion. It's really important for both of you to work with your puppy in a consistent manner, if possible.


No worries on this front. My husband are constantly having discussions about the pros and cons about various techniques and which ones we're using.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

_Preface: The term "you" as used in this post in no way implies that the author is pointing a finger at anyone.

Disclaimer: Everything written within this post should be taken with a grain of salt. Use of any suggestions, recommendations, or tips, should be considered your own actions, and relieves the author from any and all liabilities. It is your responsibility to use your own common sense when applying any techniques or methods garnered from this post._

In MY opinion, and MY OPINION ONLY, the "make like a tree" thing only works to a certain point, and is not as effective in STOPPING pulling at the end of the leash as other methods. Heck, even the harsher methods used in the days of yore were hard put to stop a dog from pulling at the end of the leash. 

When training, for the most part, what I do is step back and try think about what it is that I ultimately want my dog to do, or not do, and try to devise effective stepping stones to achieve those goals. And, those stepping stones may indeed be different for each dog because not only is each dog different, the relationship and style of communication a person has can easily be different with each dog.

For me, as I've said somewhere before, recall is the most important command, followed closely by heel. Why is heel so important? First, know that to me heel means to be at my side and never pull on the leash. I believe that a reliable heel is something that can help prevent mishaps and injuries to both me and my dog, as might be the case where the dog wants to take off after something while I'm not aware of it, and yank me and him/her into traffic, or even yank my shoulder out of socket, or maybe even tangle him/herself in front of me causing to trip and smash my face onto the sidewalk.

Also, I don't believe you can have a reliable dog without corrections, even if we humans THINK that some corrections may be harsh. Look at a pack of dogs and you can see that they can indeed get VERY rough, even when they're playing, let alone when an adult dog is trying to teach a young dog to "knock it off" and "fall in line".

Another thing to consider is that unless a correction becomes consistently abusive, and/or is improper relative to the task at hand, it's not really "harsh". I mean, to haul back and yank a dog while trying to teach it to heel would be harsh, but to yank a dog that is clearly being either overexuberant OR aggressive where that overexuberance or aggressivenes could cause problems is NOT harsh.

Lest someone thinks what I'm saying is too harsh, I better clarify with a real life situation for those pessimistic folks who always think that no one has any common sense (I, on the other hand, prefer to think that people on this forum are indeed thinking people and will apply their own common sense to things said.) Have you ever seen a dog that's so darned exicted that he strains at the end of a leash so hard that his front paws come off the ground? It's something to think about the next time you think some tugging on a leash BY YOU is going to hurt a dog, let alone damage your relationship with it. Heck, a dog straining at the end of the leash in such a manner can easily be viewed as the dog is somewhat hanging itself, but since you're holding the leash, is it likely to love you or trust you less? I, personally, don't think so.

Speaking of which, a dog is not going to trust or love you any less if you were to use corrections, unless, like I said above, that it happens so often or is abusive. In fact, if a correction is TOO mild, is ends up happening too much, which results in desensitization and subsequently CAN be abusive, so you would've been better served using a stronger correction only once or twice.

While dogs can be extremely smart, they are not going to obey a command purely because they trust you. Sure, there are times, such as those you see on the news where a dog is trapped on the other side of a raging river, and the only way he's going to survive is to swim across that rapid against his better judgment because he trusts you to save him, but just because you use corrections in training, does not mean you're going to break down that trust, either, because for the most part, your dog is your loving companion, too. That's why when training a dog something, which I believe is very different than teaching a dog, I feel it is a good idea to use more praise than treats, no matter what training method you use. (Like I said before, for me, treats are reserved for teaching.)

Additionally, if a correction is too mild, you can also desensitive a dog to that partiuclar type of correction, and the most common mistake I see in this area is the hapless owner walking down the street, or should I say being dragged down the street by the dog, yelling, "Fido, heel!" It is these folks that are typically too nice to their dogs, and the dogs clearly take advantage of them, by ignoring them and proceeding to cause them rotator cuff injuries, and more. Lawsuit comes to my mind when it comes to GSDs.









I, personally, don't believe in harnesses correct (oops, should've said "improve") pulling behaviors. To me, harnesses only encourage pulling, and I would only use them in protection training or on sled dogs. While I do recognize the harnesses designed for walking dogs, I believe they are really only tool that alleviates the pressure on the human handler.

I also think it's a mistake to try and get a dog to understand that a particular type of collar or harnesses, or any training tool for that matter, is designed for different types of training methods. After all, the goal is to get the dog to respond to YOU, not the tools you use, does that make sense? A case in point is the use of electronic collars. Some folks get vey good results with e-collars, yet many others say there dog is only reliable when he's wearing the collar, even if they never have to stimulate the dog. Why is that? Because something the handler did incorrectly taught he dog that he doesn't have to do anything without the collar in place, even if the handler doesn't even carry the remote control. In fact, this is such a common occurrence that some e-collar manufacturers even make dummy collars, that aren't even functional, to try to fool such dogs into THINKING they're wearing e-collars!

All of this goes to show that while there are indeed many different philosophies for teaching and training, you have to choose which one is better for you. One thing to consider while you ponder different methods are your environment. For example, if you live in a husting and bustling metropolis, your emphasis on a tight heel is probably going to be much more important for you, and the safety of everyone around you, including your dog, than someone who lives in a rural area. So, you need to do whatever it is that you feel is necessary to accomplish a reliable heel, regardless of if it includes strong corrections. Because all it takes is the dog to turn its head in a crowd, unitentionally bump its teeth on some child, and someone afraid of dogs will cry foul. Next thing you know, you're putting your dog down. Yikes! It is at that moment you will start questioning what you could've done to prevent that, and that might stick with you for a long time.

On the other hand, people that live in more rural areas would probably emphasize crittering, long-distance work, etc. more than city folks.

I've lived in both cities with hugely dense populations such as New York, Hong Kong, and San Francisco, as well is in more rural areas such as the high desert of California, and even tropical areas like Hawaii. Dogs behave differently when raised in different places, and react differently when taken out of their element. As someone on this thread pointed out, while a command can indeed be perceived differently by a dog when in an environment outside of its norm, I personally believe that it is for this very reason that I must ensure that my dog is reliable, and if it means shunning some theories in favor of others, even though others might not agree, so be it. When I think about it, teaching and training in the grand scheme of things is only a small part of my dogs' lives. And, I'd rathe train less and more effectively so I don't always have to stress about what my dogs are going to do in whatever situation we find ourselves in so we can enjoy our time together more. And, finally, in the end, I'd rather know I did everything possible to ensure that each of my dogs live a long, healthy and happy life.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

Oops, I almost forgot, you've got to keep in mind that if you're taking classes, you should keep in mind that a trainer needs to "generalize" his/her training because training in a class environment is not nearly the same as training one on one, because as we know, everyone and their dogs are different. So a trainer in a class can only provide you with so much. It is up to you to take and consider, and even modify, if necessary, what you learn and apply it accordingly to your particular situation.

With that said, there is no such thing as the perfect trainer, nor is there a method that works for everybody and every dog. It is best if you gather as much information you can and apply the techniques that YOU think best fit you and your dog.

At the same time, it would be smart to constantly and objectively monitor the results of efforts you're making, and if you ever find that you need to switch menthods, it would be smart to consider the implementation of a new method as starting all over again, because sudden jumpa between mehtods is what can indeed affect the trust and bond you have with your dog.

My 2 cents...MORE! LOL


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Thanks to everyone who is contributing to this thread...Im taking all this advice to heart as Im sure Rhena is as well and coming up with a plan of action that fits both me as an owner and my dog.

Im going to not use a harness for now and instead stick with his flat collar. No more just letting him do what he wants on walks and no more walks with the golden retriever for the time being as he is a bad example. All walks will be with a goal in mind and I will use the ball and rag for his exercise until he is walking better.

Ill start with "make like a tree" type training with rewards only and as he grows/ages I will add corrections as I feel comfortable with them and when I think it is the right time for me personally. This doesnt mean that I am blowing off your advice Mr LF I am just as you noted taking in all of the information and going with what I personally feel is best for now. So please continue to add your advice here as I really value it!

Once again, thanks to everyone...there is so much great discussion in this thread while keeping it civil


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> For me, as I've said somewhere before, recall is the most important command, followed closely by heel. Why is heel so important? First, know that to me heel means to be at my side and never pull on the leash. I believe that a reliable heel is something that can help prevent mishaps and injuries to both me and my dog, as might be the case where the dog wants to take off after something while I'm not aware of it, and yank me and him/her into traffic, or even yank my shoulder out of socket, or maybe even tangle him/herself in front of me causing to trip and smash my face onto the sidewalk.


Or today in Minnesota -- a layer of black ice on most sidewalks covered with a thin layer of newly fallen snow. NOT an ideal place to walk a loose leash dog much less one putting any tension...



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> (I, on the other hand, prefer to think that people on this forum are indeed thinking people and will apply their own common sense to things said.)


This is much appreciated.



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> I, personally, don't believe in harnesses correct (oops, should've said "improve") pulling behaviors. To me, harnesses only encourage pulling, and I would only use them in protection training or on sled dogs. While I do recognize the harnesses designed for walking dogs, I believe they are really only tool that alleviates the pressure on the human handler.
> 
> I also think it's a mistake to try and get a dog to understand that a particular type of collar or harnesses, or any training tool for that matter, is designed for different types of training methods. After all, the goal is to get the dog to respond to YOU, not the tools you use, does that make sense?


Absolutely....



> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> All of this goes to show that while there are indeed many different philosophies for teaching and training, you have to choose which one is better for you. One thing to consider while you ponder different methods are your environment. For example, if you live in a husting and bustling metropolis, your emphasis on a tight heel is probably going to be much more important for you, and the safety of everyone around you, including your dog, than someone who lives in a rural area. So, you need to do whatever it is that you feel is necessary to accomplish a reliable heel, regardless of if it includes strong corrections. Because all it takes is the dog to turn its head in a crowd, unitentionally bump its teeth on some child, and someone afraid of dogs will cry foul. Next thing you know, you're putting your dog down. Yikes! It is at that moment you will start questioning what you could've done to prevent that, and that might stick with you for a long time.


This is a really good point. Living in the city (with a small yards), we rely on walks very heavily for exercise for our dog. Sadly, the difference between a good walk and a bad walk in the city can mean the difference between a good day or a bad day in general -- and there's always the huge fear that the dog is going to bolt, pull the leash out of my hand, and end up getting hit by a car.

This point reminds me of my sister teaching her kids to not go near the alleyway next to their house. They built a fence around the backyard so there wasn't much concern back there that they would run into the alley, but in the front there is no fence. As babies, they'd just redirect the kid crawling for the alley, but there was a certain age that they turned to a very loud, stern, "NO!" directed at the kid walking toward the alley. It definitely caused a lot of tears and required hugs from mom to get over -- but it worked and I think it worked in a way that luring the kid away from the alleyway would not have worked. Eventually, as the kid could talk and reason, they'd explain about dangerous drivers in the alley and how they couldn't see them and how to look both ways before crossing it. 

Dog and child psychology and learning are obviously very different and I don't know that this comparison makes it any clearer about when and how corrections should and can be used with a pup, but I think there are parallels in the fact that the adult human sees the bigger picture and how pressing it is to keep the child/ dog safe where the child/ dog can't. 

Thanks for explaining your take on the use of correction, MrLF.


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## Kayla's Dad (Jul 2, 2007)

MRLF - Love the disclaimer. Hope everyone is blending all the advice and tips to determine their best/preferred course of action.




> Originally Posted By: RhenaAt what age do you advocate to start using corrections? (If ever at all.) For her training sessions we use praise and rewards (with more gentle "ah, ah!" corrections when she, for example, breaks a stay) but there are definitely times around the house that we correct her much more sternly. We've used a sharper "no!" for when she used to go for our shoes or started to get into some chemicals under the sink. I've used a much sharper "no!" (and getting physically in between) when she's gone for my two year old neice. Of course, playing with my neice is all in good fun for Juno who thinks she's a playmate -- but my first instinct is to protect my neice.
> 
> I'm curious about what age people think corrections are necessary -- or under what circumstances they should be used.


As far as corrections, IMO it is not an "age" thing, it is a point in time where you feel you have taught and your dog is/should be performing a behavior consistently. 

I also think intrepretation of what constitutes "harsh" is a judgement call that a handler needs to make for the circumstance at hand. The circumstance Rhena noted above with her niece sounds like a good correction in the circumstance. Likewise the example of MrLF put out there in his post,

"I mean, to haul back and yank a dog while trying to teach it to heel would be harsh, but to yank a dog that is clearly being either overexuberant OR aggressive where that overexuberance or aggressivenes could cause problems is NOT harsh."

However the reaction of the trainer in Rhena posts regarding how she corrected the dog the very first time he had on new equipment, again IMO, was harsh:

"The moment Juno walked in front of her leg, she used the harness/ leash to stop her, pivoted in front of her and gave her a harsh verbal correction. She then moved Juno outside and did more of this and then handed the leash to us to complete the walk in a similar way."

Had this been after working with the pup for a while(again subjective) then it may have been appropriate.

Not sure I'm answering your question, but for me the bottom line is if you are not comfortable with what you are doing or being taught, if you feel there is mistrust building then you need to step back and seriously evaluate what and how you are doing things with and for your puppy and what you are really getting out of the classes you attend with him.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeIm going to not use a harness for now and instead stick with his flat collar. No more just letting him do what he wants on walks and no more walks with the golden retriever for the time being as he is a bad example.


This is smart thinking because dogs can so easily pick up bad habits, especially puppies.



> Quote:Ill start with "make like a tree" type training with rewards only and as he grows/ages I will add corrections as I feel comfortable with them and when I think it is the right time for me personally. This doesnt mean that I am blowing off your advice Mr LF I am just as you noted taking in all of the information and going with what I personally feel is best for now. So please continue to add your advice here as I really value it!


Don't even worry about it. I put my experience out there for people to do with it as they see fit. You know YOUR dog and your relationship with your dog better than ANYONE ELSE, so you should indeed first try methods that you think are best, because if they work, then you need try no more!











> Quote:Once again, thanks to everyone...there is so much great discussion in this thread while keeping it civil


FWIW, I always keep an eye out for anything I can use in my training, too, so I, too, sure hope we can continue in the manner that we have thus far.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Everett54MRLF - Love the disclaimer.


I wonder if adding a disclaimer to my signature would at least reduce the flames that are often thrown at me on this forum to a smolder.







With my luck, if there's even room for it in my signature, I'd get flamed because it's too long!











> Quote:As far as corrections, IMO it is not an "age" thing, it is a point in time where you feel you have taught and your dog is/should be performing a behavior consistently.


Well said!



> Quote:The circumstance Rhena noted above with her niece sounds like a good correction in the circumstance.


I agree, too.



> Quote:Not sure I'm answering your question, but for me the bottom line is if you are not comfortable with what you are doing or being taught, if you feel there is mistrust building then you need to step back and seriously evaluate what and how you are doing things with and for your puppy and what you are really getting out of the classes you attend with him.


Now why aren't I able to get things out using a minimal amount of words, like you?


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaSo far we've walked Juno (4+ months) on either her back clip harness or more recently her front clip harness. We haven't used her flat collar at all -- the trainer recommended not using it because we'll start to desensitize her neck. I've been working pretty long and hard on the harnesses to get a loose leash walk. I've used the "be a tree" thing and then I'll sometimes take her to a big open space and use the change direction. It was slowly working but was SO slow as to be a little frustrating -- in part I think because we allowed her to be in front of us as long as she wasn't pulling and this allowed her to be more distractable and was making it hard to keep her on the left side.


First, a quick note on the harnesses: the front clip harnesses (such as the Easy Walk from Gentle Leader) are absolutely WONDERFUL to use if you've got a dog that pulls. They have a completely different effect on the dog than the harnesses that have the back clip. When they started making these new harnesses many years ago and I tried them out, I was really pleased to see how effective they were and how responsive the dogs were. The older style (back clip) harnesses, to me, encourage pulling more than they discourage it, but the front clip harnesses are a wonderful tool.

One of the reasons that I tend to reward my dog at my left side instead of in front of me is that the dog is able to watch me better and avoid distractions a bit easier. But some people prefer their dogs to be out in front. Once my dogs are trained to keep the leash loose, I do let them wander out front more - but initially, my left side is the place that I reward. 



> Quote:She took Juno and walked her inside. The moment Juno walked in front of her leg, she used the harness/ leash to stop her, pivoted in front of her and gave her a harsh verbal correction. She then moved Juno outside and did more of this and then handed the leash to us to complete the walk in a similar way.


Oh my - I would recommend that you never EVER hand the leash over to a trainer unless you've watched that trainer and understand in advance exactly what she's going to do. Too many trainers have this idea that training is all about submission and corrections, and that's what it sounds like she used on your dog. While the verbal corrections may not be as bad as some of the hard physical ones, they could still really cower a sensitive dog. 

In essence, the training this trainer showed you is like the "change of direction" training, where every time the dog moves ahead of you, you change directions and the dog gets a correction. Where's the teaching in this? The dog is thinking "oh man, how do I avoid getting yelled at or popped? Now I'm worried .. what am I doing wrong?" (of course, dogs don't think quite that way - I'm generalizing more than a bit here .. *L*). Basically you're teaching the dog to stay in position because they become a bit afraid to move out of position. To me, this is not a valid way of training. Yes, it works. But then later on, when you may want to teach your dog to go ahead of you for something (retrieves, or maybe some competition behaviors) the dog may very well have a hard time of it because that fear of moving away from you has been set in place. 

I prefer the building blocks of obedience to be formed from the dog's desire to work with you, not formed from the dog's fear of doing something wrong.



> Quote:She said that this would work for a few reasons -- 1) that as strangers and trainers, they could be extra intimidating 2) the change in walking expectations would be sudden and dramatic, giving Juno as sort of "oh, I must be an adult now" attitude. She said that we needed to be serious and consistent for this to work.


Well, first of all, a 4-5 month old dog is a PUPPY .. why should she have to act like an adult?? That's a strange attitude for a trainer to have. People should work within the realms of their dog's abilities and those abilities are, in part, governed by their level of maturity. Expecting a 4 month old pup to think like an adult is like making a toddler try to do calculus. 

As far as being serious and consistent - consistency is absolutely important, but training should be FUN! People can make it whatever they want it to be, but in all honesty why have a dog if everything has to be serious and corrective? 



> Quote:There are times, however, when she's clearly reluctant to walk -- as if she's not clear on what's OK and what she'll be corrected for so she doesn't want to do anything. A little luring usually gets her going and it seems like she testing to figure out what's allowed and what's not.


I would bet that she's really confused by this change in the person she trusts - and she's reluctant because she doesn't want to be yelled at and corrected especially when she's not really done anything wrong! Yes, she's trying to figure out what's allowed (i.e. doesn't get her yelled at) and what's not. But what you're teaching her is that when she does something you don't want (and she may not even know what that is) she's going to get yelled at, without the benefit of ever actually being shown what you DO want. Would you like your teachers to do that to you? I know I wouldn't .. *L* .. I always hated teachers who were vague and then gave you a bad time because you didn't understand them.



> Quote:I have some concerns about the "trust" in our relationship that you mentioned and whether or not walks are actually fun for her.


She's a baby. TEACH her, don't INTIMIDATE her. Let her have fun, let the bond between you grow and build trust. Teach her in a kind, consistent, fair way and always think about how you're TEACHING, and not just correcting what you don't want. Let her enjoy her walks and teach her not to pull without stressing her. 



> Quote: I was wondering if using the technique that Melanie describes above simultaneously (but in distinct training sessions) would work (i.e. go for walks on the harness and then work in different places on the reward-only on the flat collar.)


As far as the collars go .. I actually do most of my training off-leash when I can. Of course, at some times this requires a fenced area so I know that not everyone can manage it, but my goal is to have a dog that is not dependent (and I'm not dependent) on any TOOL, including collars, leashes, etc. I view collars/harnesses as something necessary to keep my dog confined while I work on behaviors, and occasionally a specific type of collar that will help me with a particular behavior. The training I described before where I said I use a flat collar can be done on the front clip harness, too, without any problems. The collar/harness is just to keep the dog from wandering off and I prefer to use as benign an instrument as possible for that. 

While you could teach your dog that different behaviors are expected with different collars/harnesses, in the long run I think you'd regret that. For example, if your dog learned "sit" meant "sit while the collar is on" you may not get a sit when the collar is off, even though the physical behavior is the same. Dogs tend to associate commands within the parameters in which they're trained. A dog taught to sit (and I'm just using sit as an easy example, not saying you'd do this) after you put on a collar and take him into a specific room will soon think that sit only means with the collar in that room. And then when you put the harness on and take him out, "sit" will probably not happen. Dogs only learn to generalize when you train for behaviors under varying circumstances (with collar, with harness, without either, in the house, in the yard, in the street, at the dog park, at your parent's home, etc.). Those of us who train for competition know very well the frustration of dogs who don't transfer behavioral concepts well - we train to a high level of obedience in our training facilities and then go to a show where our dogs act like they've never heard even the basic commands! *LOL* It only takes a few times of that before you learn that you HAVE to get out and train in all types of situations.

On the topic of corrections: I don't tend to use much in the way of corrections (maybe some mild "eh eh!'s" along the way) until the dog is at least six months old. I'm not big on physical corrections although there are times when they're very effective. And corrections really depend on each dog's distinct personality. Some dogs cower at a simple "NO!" while others don't respond to it at all unless it's followed by a swat (we've seen human kids like this too .. *L*). I want my dogs to respect me, but I do that in ways that usually don't require any physical corrections. I do a lot of NILIF when necessary, I set boundaries and they have to live within those boundaries, and I never let them forget that I control all of their resources (food, water, toys, attention, access to outdoors, etc.). And that's why I can live with a houseful of bitches peacefully. 

Hope all of this has given you some things to think about!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

KC_Pike - glad to see that you have pulled out advice that you feel will work with you and your dog!

Also am glad to see that you are accepting of all the different types of advice - even when the posts may have veered from the original intent of the thread. Some people get upset about "hijacking" threads and my thoughts have always been that threads tend to meander in the natural course of online conversation. I think there have been a lot of thoughtful posts made on this thread from people who truly want to see everyone do well with their dogs.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

This thread has been great as have all the contributors. Its such a cool feeling being a new dog owner to be in class and really understand what is going on and know what the trainer is going to do/say before it happens! I even found myself helping other new owners tonight...good feeling.

The front harness will be used only now and then for fun/free walks...most of our time forward will be flat collar and walking training. I got approval from the g/f tonight on this approach and we are both on board. It will be a little while before he is able to walk with his brother and until I can train the trainer Ill be the only one working on his loose leash walking so we are consistent.

For corrections he knows my "ah, ah, ah" sound and responds well to it already

Tonight in class he did well with his loose leash walking, the trainer remarked at how focused he is when working with me. Well, it was either me or the hot dogs

Thanks all!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

This has really been a great discussion -- with this thread combined with spending loads of time with my pup and reading a ton of other sources, I'm gradually shaping some ideas, thoughts, and techniques for training her. 

A few of the things that I've started to build into a framework:

- I don't think dogs have a sense of right and wrong. They have a sense of dangerous and safe. There are times when I have a better overall view to decide what is dangerous (i.e. nipping at a child -- or anyone -- isn't "wrong" or inherently dangerous for the pup -- she's just playing -- but it's dangerous for her when a parent cries foul). My role as an owner is to keep her safe from those dangers that she's not aware of -- even if it means creating a false sense of danger by correcting her.

- There's obviously a spectrum of training. On the far extremes are people who use all "positives" and no discipline. (As exemplified by the dog who a friend had the misfortune of sitting one weekend. The dog had no boundaries and did things like jump on the dining room table.) On the other hand are people who use inappropriately harsh corrections or too many corrections. (Sadly, I'm sure we've all come across dogs who've suffered at the hands of this type of person.) I believe that both of these extremes can be "abusive" in that a great deal of harm can come to dogs raised under either of these circumstances.

- In the middle is a wide range of trainers who use aversives, corrections, praise, and rewards in varying amounts based on their own personalities, their dog's personality, and the circumstances and who I've had the luck to come across in this forum. I'm confident that all of these people have unique bonds with their dogs.

-- Even though dogs don't have a sense of moral right and wrong, they do have a complex emotional life. As a handler somewhere in the middle of the spectrum described above, I have a responsibility not only to my dog's physical well being but to her emotional well being. 

I know a lot of this is pretty basic stuff -- but I feel like basic but firm beliefs are the foundation to a solid training program.

-- In the middle of all this theory and head stuff (I tend of over intellectualize everything), I'm really enjoying spending time with my pup. I love being with her, scratching her, playing with her and watching her play, teaching and training her. The sense of fun and enjoyment is the cornerstone of why I have a dog to begin with and why I want to be the best handler for her that I can be.

Thanks to everyone for all the thoughtful, respectful replies on this thread!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: Rhena- There's obviously a spectrum of training. On the far extremes are people who use all "positives" and no discipline. (As exemplified by the dog who a friend had the misfortune of sitting one weekend. The dog had no boundaries and did things like jump on the dining room table.)


I don't think you'll find many people on here like that. I'm sure they do exist, but I agree that you need to communicate to your dog when he does wrong as well as when he does right. Positive doesn't mean permissive. The structure of rules and consequences are very necessary in raising a well mannered dog. 

I think it's great to try and take everything you've read about and learned and try to form it into some sort of general training philosophy. I'm an over thinker too, (my hubby says I'm obsessed!) and sometimes get bogged down in the details and the sheer vast amount of information out there, so I like to do the same thing - come up with a training philosophy that makes sense to me, and then to evaluate all that information as to where it fits within that framework and how it relates to the particular dog. And that's a process that's ongoing, my philosophy has definitely changed over time.

Great post Rhena!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I would venture to guess that every single person on this forum is analytical to the nth degree; otherwise they wouldn't be on here!


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Rhena- There's obviously a spectrum of training. On the far extremes are people who use all "positives" and no discipline. (As exemplified by the dog who a friend had the misfortune of sitting one weekend. The dog had no boundaries and did things like jump on the dining room table.)
> ...


I should have used a different word from "positive" me thinks...



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> I think it's great to try and take everything you've read about and learned and try to form it into some sort of general training philosophy. I'm an over thinker too, (my hubby says I'm obsessed!) and sometimes get bogged down in the details and the sheer vast amount of information out there, so I like to do the same thing - come up with a training philosophy that makes sense to me, and then to evaluate all that information as to where it fits within that framework and how it relates to the particular dog. And that's a process that's ongoing, my philosophy has definitely changed over time.


I look forward to tweaking and changing my thinking as Juno grows and when we get other dogs!



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomGreat post Rhena!


Thanks!


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## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Another thing to keep in mind is that dogs do what works for them .. they don't consider any sort of moral or ethical dilemmas, they simply do what works. So if stealing food from the counter works, they do it. If walking quietly by their owner's side works, they do it. WE need to develop what works for them, and we can either choose to do it using rewards or choose to do it using corrections. Personally I choose to use rewards until I find something that is too tempting for the dog, and then I give them a reason (correction is imminent kind of reason) why avoiding the "wrong" thing is what should work for them.

We humans see things in shades of right and wrong, but dogs don't have that capability. They aren't morally good or bad, they aren't spiteful, they aren't guilty - they simply do what works for them, and if that means that they poop in your favorite shoe or on your bed because they're feeling a high level of anxiety over being left alone, that's what they'll do. And when it comes to training, leaving ALL of the human anger and frustration out always works best because dogs don't understand anger and frustration (they may feel angry or frustrated at times, but they don't understand it when we do). 

A bit about the term "aversives" - here's an online definition of "aversive":

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
"tending to avoid or causing avoidance of a noxious or punishing stimulus"

Personally I tend to avoid aversives altogether whenever possible. I never want my dog to associate me with noxious or punishing stimuli. I will use corrections, yes, but I strive to avoid aversives. I think that people tend to tie together "aversive" and "correction" as being the same thing when in reality a correction can be far from aversive. Just like bonds between humans, a human-dog bond is more trusting, more deep and more rewarding when aversives are kept to a minimal. In fact, for me, that means aversives are pretty much only used when we are faced with training that is life-saving (such as avoidance of moose - a topic which is close to my heart this morning as we had one in the back that Tazer and Khana thought they should visit with). 



> Quote:-- In the middle of all this theory and head stuff (I tend of over intellectualize everything), I'm really enjoying spending time with my pup. I love being with her, scratching her, playing with her and watching her play, teaching and training her. The sense of fun and enjoyment is the cornerstone of why I have a dog to begin with and why I want to be the best handler for her that I can be.


I love this paragraph .. this, to me, is a major part of building and maintaining a bond with a dog. The time you take to observe them play, the laughter when you see them do something especially cute or silly, the warmth you feel during those long sessions of petting and massaging .. THESE, to me, are far more important than actual training sessions. I think that people get so wrapped up into making their dogs mind that they forget to relax into the pure enjoyment of having a dog in their lives. Every single day I sit out in the shop and have all the dogs loose, running around playing with each other and the toys, and it's the best part of the day. Each dog checks in with me periodically and I rub and scrub and scratch and cuddle them until they're ready to go back into playtime. Tazer races around with two or three toys in her mouth, trying to tease one of the other dogs into a game of tug ... Trick gives in on occasion for a bit of growling/tugging and then lets Tazer have the toy and meanders off to find a frisbee .. Dora spends all her time searching for any crumb of biscuit or kibble that may have been dropped, and Khana either sits on my feet or filches a bone out of Tazer's kennel and lays down near me to chew on it. Once in a while Tazer will entice her into rough, tumbling game of growly-face but now that she's maturing she's more likely to settle down with a bone.

And lately I have Eddie, my Mom's GSD mix, staying with us. He's not used to being part of a pack .. *L* .. but he's learned that when I pull out the biscuits, we're going to play the biscuit game and I'll be tossing bits of biscuit around for them to chase after, or asking them all to do a down or a sit or a spin for a biscuit. He LOVES joining into these games even though he's never been a pack dog like mine.

Watching them has made me a better owner and a better trainer. I think if more people observed, hands OFF, they'd learn more than they realize. Our dogs have much to teach us about life.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Currently with five little monsters .. *L*


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: IliamnasQuest
> A bit about the term "aversives" - here's an online definition of "aversive":
> 
> Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
> ...


Not to pick apart word usage and definitions, but here's another definition of "aversive": "someone or something that arouses feelings of disinclination."

In her book _The Other End of the Leash_, Patricia McConnell writes about how her hand signal for "go away" (used when she's working on her computer and her pup comes up to ask for a rub down) is two pats on the head. She refers to this as hand signal that doubles as an aversive since many dogs don't like to be pat on the head (I suspect many humans don't like it either!). 

Another "aversive" that I've read about is placing coin-filled cans on a counter top in such a way that when a dog hops up to counter-surf, the cans tumble down making a loud noise that startles the dog and creates an aversion to hopping up on the counter next time. Others use double sided carpet tape (which would never work with my dog 'cause she loves tape!). 

Another one would be spraying bitter apple on a leash or other item you don't want the dog to chew on. Or another would be putting cayenne pepper on the cat's poop in its litter box to deter the dog from eating it. 

I think there are many "aversives" that are pretty benign. A dog is going to come across things in the world that they have a natural aversion to -- I don't hold it against a trainer for using those aversions in effective ways. 

Using this definition, I think of "corrections" as a subset of "aversions" -- the sound of my voice saying "ah, ah" makes my pup disinclined from doing whatever she was doing (well, some of the time, anyway







).


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Rhenaplacing coin-filled cans on a counter top in such a way that when a dog hops up to counter-surf, the cans tumble down making a loud noise that startles the dog and creates an aversion to hopping up on the counter next time. Others use double sided carpet tape (which would never work with my dog 'cause she loves tape!).


This is EXACTLY why I cringe when I hear people revere authors as some kind of authority just because they said something in a book that was published. Heck, even I have published books, but that doesn't make me the be-all, end-all authority on a subject.

Even:


> Quote:Another one would be spraying bitter apple on a leash or other item you don't want the dog to chew on.


I've NEVER had bitter apple work reliably. Shoot, IME, you spray that on a leash, a dog avoids it until the alcohol evaporates, and the smell causes them to WANT to chew it some more just because he's curious of the taste.



> Quote:Or another would be putting cayenne pepper on the cat's poop in its litter box to deter the dog from eating it.


This kind of stuff has NEVER worked for me, either, at least it doesn't result in reliability. Dog smells poop. Mmmm, good. Dog eats poop. Dog samples poop with cayenne pepper. Yech! Now dog KNOWS the smell of cayenne pepper, and won't eat poop that smells like it. All this did was train me to run outside and sprinkle cayenne pepper on every poop I saw, every time I came across one. I'd even stress out if I didn't have some pepper on hand!

I'm not trying to nitpick this author, because I'm sure some of these things work for the average dog, but I've never owned an average dog, because I've owned mostly GSDs, and not one of them ever fell for such nonsense methods that date WAY back, too, at least 30 years (And some people have the gall to call me old-fashioned in my training. Ha! Personally, if something works, I don't really care how old the method is.)

Anyway, my point is that I don't believe for a second that anyone can end up with a reliable "real-life" dog that comes into contact with modern transportation, strangers, etc. on a regular basis without using aversives and corrections (unless you live in a very rural area). Of course, you should use positive reinforcement as much as possible, but you have to be practical. For example, you can tell your dog not to go near a fireplace all you want, and he may not do so when you're around. But, he's never going to stay away just because you said so. It's when his nose touches a hot grate for the first time he learns to stay away even when you're not around. Was that painful for the dog? Maybe a little, but he'll recover.

Now, let's look at heeling on busy street. Without the use of corrections by us we let the dog learn using the "be a tree" method. At some point we have too much leash out, just enough that when the dog lunges for some reason, maybe for a dropped ice cream cone just off the sidewalk, his head gets hit by a car moving very close to the curb to make a turn. If the dog survives without serious harm, he MIGHT not go to the end of the leash again, but more than likely he will have PTSD over a busy street, sound of cars, or maybe even ice cream. 

So, for me, I'd much prefer to use corrections to prevent things like that from happening, and things like that happen ALOT.

Obviously, not all corrections result in pain, either, as there are many levels of correction. But, for those that do, will the dog recover from it? Probably, just like his burnt nose from the fireplace grate will. Question is whether or not WHAT you're trying to teach is important enough for YOU to feel you need to incorporate a correction that involves pain. So, for ME, someone who wants to be able to take his dog everywhere, and lives in an environment where there are busy streets, to prevent a mishap the likes of what I described above, I'll do whatever it takes to achieve a reliable heel, even if it involves correction that might have some pain involved with it. I know it SOUNDS harsh, but I'd rather my dog experience "the nose on the fireplace grate" type thing rather than get hit by a car. (BTW, I USE MY BRAIN to minimize the possibility of a correction ruining trust or a bond with me. In fact, I'm show the dog EXTRA affection or praise when he adheres to a correction and/or does a desired behavior instead.)

But, if your dog lives the perfect life on a farm and does agility trials or frisbee competitions, etc., of course, you probably don't need to use corrections much, if any. I can just imagine how good of a Frisbee dog I'd have if he got corrections while playing something I'm supposed to be teaching him to enjoy. I'd be Dr. Kill-joy for sure, then.

Similarly, how much correction do you need for teaching Sit? Maybe a little to maintain the Sit, but definitely nothing that involves pain. Sit is more of a convenience to us humans, and is not something that I, personally, would regard as as much of a life-saving command, as a heel.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Only the first example where she pats her dogs' head is from Patricia McConnell's book, which is excellent. The other examples Rhena said she read or heard about elsewhere. 

One thing that's different about those other examples is that all of them could be seen by the dog as not being caused by the owner, but rather as environmental consequences of their actions, which I personally don't mind using as I don't believe they damage the relationship. 

I see it as the difference between a child learning that the stove will burn by reaching towards a hot burner vs having their parent hold their hand over it, or as in MrLF's example, a dog and a fireplace grate. Either way the child learns, but one way is an abusive act by a person they trust, and the other way is a consequence of their own actions.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Rhenaplacing coin-filled cans on a counter top in such a way that when a dog hops up to counter-surf, the cans tumble down making a loud noise that startles the dog and creates an aversion to hopping up on the counter next time. Others use double sided carpet tape (which would never work with my dog 'cause she loves tape!).
> ...


Just to clarify: these aren't Patricia McConnell's ideas -- nor are they mine or things that I think work. I was just trying to show a list of "aversives" that are pretty benign and wouldn't ruin trust with a handler.


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomOnly the first example where she pats her dogs' head is from Patricia McConnell's book, which is excellent. The other examples Rhena said she read or heard about elsewhere.


Thanks for clarifying!



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> One thing that's different about those other examples is that all of them could be seen by the dog as not being caused by the owner, but rather as environmental consequences of their actions, which I personally don't mind using as I don't believe they damage the relationship.


.... which is exactly part of the point I was making.... the term "aversives" isn't necessary going to mean that trust with the dog is going to be broken...



> Originally Posted By: Cassidys Mom
> I see it as the difference between a child learning that the stove will burn by reaching towards a hot burner vs having their parent hold their hand over it, or as in MrLF's example, a dog and a fireplace grate. Either way the child learns, but one way is an abusive act by a person they trust, and the other way is a consequence of their own actions.


Or the third way to deal with it (as I think MrLF is getting at) is to "correct" the child with a sharp or loud word before she gets to the stove. Yes, she will be startled by the parent and will likely cry -- but parents who use that sort of preventative measure believe that the trade off is worth it to keep the child safe (and that the danger is high enough). Having their child hold their hand over a hot burner would be akin to forcing your dog to run into the fireplace grate -- or forcing them to run into traffic -- and would, indeed, be abusive.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Cassidys MomOne thing that's different about those other examples is that all of them could be seen by the dog as not being caused by the owner, but rather as environmental consequences of their actions, which I personally don't mind using as I don't believe they damage the relationship.


That's good thing to point out, as people may not see it that way.









Too bad those particular techniques aren't all that effective.











> Quote:I see it as the difference between a child learning that the stove will burn by reaching towards a hot burner vs having their parent hold their hand over it...


At first, I was going to say, "but people aren't that stupid are they?", and then I changed my mind when I remembered all the stuff I see on the news!


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaJust to clarify: these aren't Patricia McConnell's ideas -- nor are they mine or things that I think work. I was just trying to show a list of "aversives" that are pretty benign and wouldn't ruin trust with a handler.


I guess I did sound kind of nitpicky, didn't I? But, it IS a good point you brought up.


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: RhenaOr the third way to deal with it (as I think MrLF is getting at) is to "correct" the child with a sharp or loud word before she gets to the stove. Yes, she will be startled by the parent and will likely cry -- but parents who use that sort of preventative measure believe that the trade off is worth it to keep the child safe (and that the danger is high enough).


Thanks for helping me say more clearly what I was getting at, and to further clarify, if it happens to require a little smack to get the child to realize that I mean business, then so be it (because a child may not understand the severity of such a consequence since they've never been burnt before). But, to me, even that smack is worth it to me to help prevent them from getting burned. While they might be mad at me for the smack, they'll get over it, but I'd rather them have a different outlook of me for a little while, if it helps save them from such a disaster, does that make sense?


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## Rhena (Jan 30, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: MrLeadFoot
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: RhenaOr the third way to deal with it (as I think MrLF is getting at) is to "correct" the child with a sharp or loud word before she gets to the stove. Yes, she will be startled by the parent and will likely cry -- but parents who use that sort of preventative measure believe that the trade off is worth it to keep the child safe (and that the danger is high enough).
> ...


I think this is where we'd differ on this aspect of "correction" I would no more hit a dog than a child, regardless of the danger -- but I would give a firm "no" for either (depending, of course, upon the age and whether they'd be able to understand).


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## MrLeadFoot (Jan 4, 2009)

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. Just so you know, I don't hit my dogs.

The point I was trying to make was that if a child goes hear a hot stove, and you tell them not to, and try to warn them that they'll get burned, they don't know what that means, so they can easily not listen, maybe even out of curiosity. So, if they keep going near it, I would indeed give them a little smack or spanking, to get my point across that I don't care what they think, "When I tell you not to get near that hot stove, I mean it."

Why do I feel this way? Because when my son was little, he did not listen, and I did not reinforce my position strongly enough. Once day, he reached up and placed his hand directly on an electric burner when my wife had removed the pot that was on it.

Hard lesson learned for all of us, and I don't mess around anymore, because it could've been worse. What if the little rascal had somehow managed to climb up and spill boiling water or hot grease on himself? To me, a smack or spanking is a small price to pay for decreasing the chances of something like that happening. And, I don't mean to beat dogs or children into submission, either. In fact, it's often the "wind up", not the actual contact that startles them into getting their attention.

And, the same thing can happen to a dog, so when I issue commands, I expect them to be obeyed, no matter what, and I will exhaust all efforts to ensure that they indeed are. Of course, I use common sense, so I am not abusive, harsh, or stupid about it. For example, I wouldn't be so stupid as to call my dog to me and scold him or anything like that, nor would I chase her down and reprimand her if she didn't listen. But, if she were ever to lunge while in a heel position, I'd be prepared to do whatever it took to prevent it from happening again; whether it be a good yank, or whatever, because I'm not standing for it, because it only takes one unexpected lunge into the street to possibly end her life, and possibly mine, too, if she were to drag me with her. Fortunately, I started working on heel when she was 9-10 weeks old, so it was much easier for me to get her to be the 100% reliable on heel today, at 7 months old. 

But, as I always say, to each his own.


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

Maybe this should go in the other training section but Id love to keep this thread going.

So Ditka is doing well with his stay's and had a 2 minute down-stay the other night in class. I get him in his down and then issue the stay command...I repeat this now and then when I think he is kicking around the idea of getting up in his head This is working well but by no means is it perfected and Ill keep working on it but I think now might be the time to build in a small change in how this is done.

Ideally Id like his down-stay and sit-stay to be done just by telling him down or sit...so that those commands you stay there until released and slowly start to remove needing a seperate stay command.

My question is, whats the best way to do this? Just slowly remove the stay command and slowly build a sit/down into meaning stay there by correcting if he moves? So sit....no stay command...treat if he stays sitting and over time make him go longer?

Thanks all, I hope my question makes sense...


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## KC_Pike (Aug 18, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: KC_PikeMaybe this should go in the other training section but Id love to keep this thread going.
> 
> So Ditka is doing well with his stay's and had a 2 minute down-stay the other night in class. I get him in his down and then issue the stay command...I repeat this now and then when I think he is kicking around the idea of getting up in his head This is working well but by no means is it perfected and Ill keep working on it but I think now might be the time to build in a small change in how this is done.
> 
> ...


Also posted in the training forum in case anyone is interested.

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1001676&page=0#Post1001676


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