# Luke's ACA registered (reputable?) can we get him AKC registered?



## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

When we picked Luke up we didn't care if he was registered with any club. He was obviously a purebred GSD. We met his parents and they were both obviously purebred GSDs.

When we picked him up the family told us that they had an ACA registration paper that we should send in as soon as we had a chance. They showed us both of their dogs birth certificates and we sent out the form right away.

Now I know this isn't the same as AKC registered and when you call them they claim to be the 2nd largest canine association in the US. My first question is, just how reputable are they? My 2nd question is, can I register my pup through the AKC at this point since he is purebred?


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

mrsartz said:


> My first question is, just how reputable are they? My 2nd question is, can I register my pup through the AKC at this point since he is purebred?



Short answers before I leave for work?

No and no.


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

seconded

ACA and CKC (continental, not canadian) are two of the biggest BYB registries

You do not know he's purebred, because those registries will accept a picture of a dog and if it looks pure enough, it gets papers. Then when the parents are bred, the pups automatically are eligible for papers. In short, people can take a dog out of a shelter or off the street and if it looks enough like a GSD, it can get registered. Lots of mixes can end up looking very pure, even though infact they aren't.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

However, if the reason you want to get him AKC registered is so that you can compete in AKC-sponsored events, you can get a PAL number which will let you compete with him in any AKC event except conformation. You'd need to send in proof that he is neutered, a photo of him, and some paperwork.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Emoore is correct. You can't register your dog for breeding with the AKC (but you've probably spayed/neutered already) ..

BUT if you want to get the PAL number thru the AKC (do they still ILP??) you absolutely can. That way you can enter pretty much any and all of their competitions except for conformation events. http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm <-- click that for info


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Many puppy mills use those faux registries, so people actually purchase the dogs from the petstore thinking they've got a gold mine because they are "registered dogs"! You'd be amazed at how many people (even with AKC papers) will think they can't, or shouldn't, alter their pet because, after all, "he/she has PAPERS!"

You can register your dog with AKC but you'll need a vet certificate stating the animal is spayed/neutered. 
You can then compete in anything AKC offers, except conformation, because it doesn't matter how "pretty" (to the standard, anyway) he or she is, they cannot pass along their genetic information to another generation.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Just to clarify the ILP/PAL is not an AKC "registration" it's a "listing". It's an alternative for purebred dogs who aren't and cannot be AKC registered.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

Thank you everyone for the replies. I wasn't so sure that it meant anything either but thought that I would ask.

We don't plan on breeding him as we took him in as a pet and not a money maker but we do not plan on having him neutered. Not anytime soon anyway. We're not totally against it but if we do it won't be until he's about a year a year and a half. We would like him to have natural aggression and not quite sure if he will lose that once fixed.

When I think of BYBs I think of those people who literally raise their dogs in the backyard or a garage or a barn...whatever the case may be. They don't treat their dogs and puppies as if they're part of a loving family they treat them STRICTLY as their meal ticket and they don't show them any love and affection hardly at all. None of the dogs are properly socialized which can lead to problems.

We got Luke from a very loving family with other pets and children. They treated the dogs and pups as members of their own family. All of the dogs had great dispositions and were very happy to be there. They had them pretty much house trained (we skipped the newspaper and or puppy pads) and knowing a few basic commands. This was their second litter. 

I admit that I did make a spur of the moment decision when I looked in a local paper and called a number in an ad. We paid $500 for him but like I said we didn't care if he came with papers or not so we didn't even ask.

Usually quick decisions like that can go awry at times but I truly think we made a good choice. He's a great dog. He learns so quickly and he's so eager to please. Of course since he's only 14 weeks old he's still acting like a puppy chewing and biting. We always redirect him and he is getting much better.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

When I think of BYB's I think of people who breed dogs and do not know or care about bloodlines, OFA or other health certifications, etc. A classic sign of a BYB is ACA or CKC "papers". Why do you want papers, anyway? If it's to compete in AKC events like obedience, you can do that with an ILP number... but the dog must be neutered.

I won't get into the "natural aggression" point, but someone else probably will. Suffice to say I don't think the kind of aggression he may have from greater amounts of testosterone will be of any benefit to you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Why do you want for him to be registered AKC? 

Sometimes people get a dog sold as a pet with limited AKC registration. They realize that they cannot produce registered puppies, but they breed the dog anyway, usually pretending it was an accident. Then they prove the dog is indeed purebred when they sell the puppies. People give them 1 - 500 thinking that they are really not supporting back yard breeders. 

If you sell puppies from available dogs, without any significant background, purchased cheaper or without papers, do no health screenings on them, do not bother to work with them to the point where they can earn titles, and do earn titles and sell the for $500 a pup, you will make money. In fact, you will probably make more money in all than the breeder who pays for their bitch, pays a decent stud fee, pays for training, pays for shows to title, pays for health screening, and charges three times what you spent on your dog. 

Furthermore, those people will generally wait until their bitch is old enough to to health screen and thus mature enough to whelp and raise puppies properly without damage to herself, and do not breed the girl ever single time she comes into heat, and only breeds the dogs that have reached their personal goals for temperament and conformation. 

I would expect that 9 out of 10 people who sell dogs with no papers are actually doing it for the meal ticket moreso than those people who are selling them for more money and doing it right. Profit margin is probably better too. 

But whatever. If you do not intend to breed your dog, papers mean absolutely nothing. If you want to compete in AKC events other than conformation showing, you can get a PAL number, but the dog must be spayed or neutered, which makes sense. If you want the dog to be fifteen to eighteen months old before spaying or neutering, train the dog for such events and just hold off titling until you have him neutered and the paperwork submitted.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Freestep said:


> I won't get into the "natural aggression" point, but someone else probably will. Suffice to say I don't think the kind of aggression he may have from greater amounts of testosterone will be of any benefit to you.


This. Neutering or not neutering will not make him more or less protective of his home and family. The only real aggression you'll get from not neutering is male-to-male dog aggression.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> When I think of BYB's I think of *people who breed dogs and do not know or care about bloodlines, OFA or other health certifications, etc.* A classic sign of a BYB is ACA or CKC "papers". Why do you want papers, anyway? If it's to compete in AKC events like obedience, you can do that with an ILP number... but the dog must be neutered.
> 
> I won't get into the "natural aggression" point, but someone else probably will. Suffice to say I don't think the kind of aggression he may have from greater amounts of testosterone will be of any benefit to you.


Right. People don't even have to have papers on their dogs to treat them like pets, but if they have no pedigrees, and OFA scores, CERF scores, etc., they are BYBs.

Your 'breeders' probably love their dogs and all, but it's a hobby to them. 

Here's a great way to tell the difference - 
What is a Backyard Breeder?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Oh, and our neutered male GSD (fixed at about 5-6mos) was an excellent guard/watch dog. He'd never have let anyone come on our property uninvited.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

I think I got the point with AKC and the BYBs. Thanks once again everyone.

I wondered about AKC registration because I thought that IF I wanted him in competitions he would have to be AKC registered. ACA claims they have competitions but I don't think they're quite the same or as recognized.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

ACA has "shows" I went to one recently and it was a bit of a joke. The judges (and I use that term loosely) knew less about dogs than the average person on this forum.

Company reps were also there to encourage everyone to register their dog with the ACA, saying that the AKC was for "snobs and those who think that purebred dogs are better" and that the purpose of the ACA was to promote "pet" dogs over showdogs.
They were bashing AKC left and right as well as anyone who breeds AKC dogs because they "think they are above the average person who wants to provide a nice pet for his friends/neighbors"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If you want a dog that can compete in AKC conformation shows, you will have to buy one, not only with papers, but from a breeder who has been successful showing their dogs. There is no way around that. 

If you want to enter him in other AKC competitions, wait until he is neutered and get a PAL number. You can do EVERYTHING with a dog save conformation showing and breeding.

But if you just want to dabble in the show ring, take the dog to puppy matches, AKC, ok, you do not have to produce the dog's papers and you sign up and pay a few bucks on the day of. You can get ribbons and such. (Just do not spay or neuter prior.) Even if your goal is conformation showing, taking this dog to puppy matches will give you some experience, be fun, and you can decide if this is something you really want to persue with your next dog.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

You wrote: 



> We're not totally against it but if we do it won't be until he's about a year a year and a half. We would like him to have natural aggression and not quite sure if he will lose that once fixed.


And I just want to make sure you read Emoore's response. I agree you may end up with more issues with other dogs, not better 'protection' against mass murderers  



Emoore said:


> Neutering or not neutering will not make him more or less protective of his home and family. The only real aggression you'll get from not neutering is male-to-male dog aggression.


Train your dog, spay/neuter him when appropriate, get the PAL number on him from the AKC and start joining all the fun in agility/obedience/rally/herding/tracking/whatever! :wild:


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

It is possible that you can get AKC papers. Here's the info off of AKC sites for dogs from litters not registered with AKC:

"There are several options available to you to see if your dog can be registered. First, we encourage you to contact your breeder to determine if it is possible to receive AKC registration papers for your dog. The registration process is described here: Registering a Dog For a dog with papers from another domestic registry 
If you cannot obtain AKC papers, AKC has a new program where we are researching pedigrees of dogs that do not have AKC paperwork to determine if the dog comes from AKC registrable stock. 
In order to determine AKC registration eligibility, you will need to send AKC a copy of your dog’s pedigree, registration application and/or registration certificate from another registry. You can also submit documentation provided by the breeder such as a contract or bill of sale. The dog may qualify for registration if the pedigree shows no break in AKC lineage and the dogs in the pedigree originate from AKC registrable stock. 
Should the dog be deemed registrable, AKC staff will register the dog in question for $30. All late fees will be waived.
When you submit your paperwork, please include your name and phone number. You can submit the paperwork in one of three ways:


Fax the information to 919-816-4232. Mark it attn: Registry Research.
Email images to [email protected]. Place Registry Research in the subject line
Mail to: AKC Registry Research
Attn: Special Services
8051 Arco Corporate Drive Suite 100
Raleigh, NC 27617"​


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

AgileGSD said:


> It is possible that you can get AKC papers. Here's the info off of AKC sites for dogs from litters not registered with AKC:
> 
> "There are several options available to you to see if your dog can be registered. First, we encourage you to contact your breeder to determine if it is possible to receive AKC registration papers for your dog. The registration process is described here: Registering a Dog For a dog with papers from another domestic registry
> If you cannot obtain AKC papers, AKC has a new program where we are researching pedigrees of dogs that do not have AKC paperwork to determine if the dog comes from AKC registrable stock.
> ...



Thank you so much!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

That's very interesting, AgileGSD. Must be something new on AKC's part. I'd never heard of it and I was all over their site less than a year ago.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes, but you still have to have a complete pedigree. I think it is more for imported dogs that do not have the necessary paperwork to register AKC or puppies from litters from imported dogs, with german pedigrees or other countries,not the typical pet registeries. 
Dogs from registries such as ACA or CKC(continental) probably do not qualify for this type of research.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

So let me get this straight, if I sell a dog as a pet on a limited registration, and my contract states that the pup is sold on a limited registration and any puppies that he sires will not be able to be registered by the AKC, and the people breed him anyway, ya know, for family and friends and maybe sell a few out of the newspaper, 'cause people are like that. 

Those puppies can not be registered AKC. But Joe Schmoe answers the ad and is not too concerned about the papers, as long as he knows the sire and dam's names, he can get ACA registration on them no problem. So he is sold the dog with a contract that says that the buyer is responsible for any health concerns that arise and the seller is not responsible for any health concerns, or just simply a bill of sale.

So he gets his pup registered through the junk registry, and starts selling puppies with junk papers and those of us that know better do not buy a dog from him. 

Well he thinks, if I can get AKC papers on his dog he can sell her pups to even more people. 

So now because he knows the sire and dam's names and they were registerable, he can get AKC papers for the dog???

So what exactly _is _the point of a limited registration??? Not shooting the messenger here, and I never held much stock in the whole limited registration deal, but if you can just go forward a generation and then register the dogs AKC, there if just no point in it at all. When you sell a litter, you keep records of each dog you sell, the sex, the date sold, the vital statistics of the buyers, and the registration status of the pup. This information is NEVER sent into the AKC. So the AKC has no idea if I sold 4 pups in a litter on limited or all 8 pups on limited registration. They would simply look back and say Babs Sweet Surprise, check, Herko von... etc. 

I sure hope there is more to this.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$?


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

part of the thing, though, is that all the dogs in the pedigree would have to be "eligible" to be registered as AKC. So if there is a dog sold on limited registration, then the pups aren't eligible to be registered. 
So, under this new thing, the dogs still wouldn't be eligible for full registration, though they can get PAL #s

at least, I think that is how it works.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes, that is how it works, puppies from a limited registration can't ever be AKC registered since the sire and dam were not registered. Only if they are spay/neutered, then they can get a "listing" from AKC to make them eligable for performance events.
I think the wording of the "new" registration help is soley for dogs that come from foreign litters and the new owners did not get the proper paperwork to get them AKC registered in the first place when they came over to USA.. Lots of beautiful GSD are brought over here born or in utero and because they don't have the correct paperwork to register the dam of the litter or the sire of the litter, but have a pedigree , they can be finally registered. 

I bet when it comes down to it, the pedigree has to be an official pedigree from another "known" registry, Canadian Kennel Club and the foreign kennel clubs that have true pedigrees/registries that go along way back, not just the joke registeries that will register any dog no matter the breed or cross. I bet the pedigree will have to have an offical breed registry with a pedigree of four or five generations, not one written on paper by a breeder. I imagine the breeder of the litter will have to be contacted also before AKC just willy nilly registers puppies.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I thought limited registration could be switched to full? I know plenty of people with dogs who have limited registration and both parents are full AKC and/or the dog/litter is full AKC registerable (the breeder just chooses to only provided limited until certain conditions are met). They are on limited reg only because the breeder chose so; the litters are/were eligible for full registration.

But otherwise I agree, this "new" process is not really going to help dogs with no known/proven pedigree or otherwise credible registration. I doubt this process was designed to help in those situations but in ones described above like foreign/imported dogs who do have pedigrees that are recognized in other countries.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Only the breeder can change the status of a pup registered with a limited registration. In order to get a limited registration both parents MUST have FULL registration. So a dog with limited registration has parents that have Full registration and ARE eligible for full registration. The breeder may have chosen limited for a number or reasons for that pup. 

I am still confused though.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> So let me get this straight, if I sell a dog as a pet on a limited registration, and my contract states that the pup is sold on a limited registration and any puppies that he sires will not be able to be registered by the AKC, and the people breed him anyway, ya know, for family and friends and maybe sell a few out of the newspaper, 'cause people are like that.
> 
> Those puppies can not be registered AKC. But Joe Schmoe answers the ad and is not too concerned about the papers, as long as he knows the sire and dam's names, he can get ACA registration on them no problem.


Think part of the question from Selzer is if a dog has ONLY an AKC limited registration and is bred, can those puppies be registered with ANOTHER crap organization with a 'full' registration under their rules/regs to fool the ignorant into paying more money for a pup?



> So what exactly _is _the point of a limited registration??? Not shooting the messenger here, and I never held much stock in the whole limited registration deal, but *if you can just go forward a generation and then register the dogs AKC*, there if just no point in it at all.


That's not true. You can only register a litter/dogs if the parents both have full registries. So once there is a limited registry in the lineage you can no longer get a full registration any future puppies.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

MaggieRoseLee said:


> Think part of the question from Selzer is if a dog has ONLY an AKC limited registration and is bred, can those puppies be registered with ANOTHER crap organization with a 'full' registration under their rules/regs to fool the ignorant into paying more money for a pup?
> .


yes, the pups can be registered with a crap registry. But, that doesn't mean the breeder can turn around and turn a CKC registration into a full AKC registration.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Dainerra said:


> yes, the pups can be registered with a crap registry. But, that doesn't mean the breeder can turn around and turn a CKC registration into a full AKC registration.


That was my understanding. 

But when they were suggesting the dog that inspired this thread might be registered AKC, I am sitting here spitting at my screen.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wyominggrandma said:


> Yes, but you still have to have a complete pedigree. I think it is more for imported dogs that do not have the necessary paperwork to register AKC or puppies from litters from imported dogs, with german pedigrees or other countries,not the typical pet registeries.
> Dogs from registries such as ACA or CKC(continental) probably do not qualify for this type of research.


 Actually they do and it's exactly what the program is for. It's to get more dogs registered who are eligible for registration but aren't registered due to breeders switching registries. If he's registered with any place, the owner should be able to get a pedigree. AKC will then determine if the dog's parents were eligible for AKC registration. 

From their site:
"For a dog with papers from another domestic registry 
AKC has a new program where we are researching pedigrees of dogs that do not have AKC paperwork to determine if the dog comes from AKC registrable stock."


So if your dog is registered with say CKC but the dogs in the pedigree are AKC registered or eligible to be, you will register your dog. I think if either parent was sold on limited though, that would make them ineligible.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Nope, not possible. The only way a dog can get full registration from AKC is both parents have to be registered with AKC with full (purple trim) registration,limited registrations have orange around them. Limited can only be changed by the breeder of record, nobody else can change them for any reason.
A puppy from a sire and dam with limited registration papers can't be registered with full papers from AKC for any reason. Even with a pedigree, AKC will question why the litter only has limited registration to the breeder and why full registration was withheld. They will not override limited registration without the breeders consent.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes, I see what you are saying, but the kicker to this is the words:"if the dog comes from AKC registrable stock."
I think this will not allow registries from the joke ones like Continental, ACA, etc because I don't believe the pedigree will show enough background, most of them have possibly a sire and dam and grandsire and granddam, but not four or five generations that show purebred breeding stock.
I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that this was to help foreign bred dogs without the multitude of required paperwork that are obviously purebred.
If these dogs from the questionable registries are able to get AKC papers, then I pity anyone trying to actually improve a breed since any dog that looks like a purebred and has a pedigree can be registered, even if grandma was a mix breed.
AKC used to be equated to high quality purebred dogs, now it is just becoming another registry wanting money. How sad for the many breeders who try to keep up good and if this is actually what this new rule is for, I will hate to see what purebred breeds look like in a few years.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

selzer said:


> That was my understanding.
> 
> But when they were suggesting the dog that inspired this thread might be registered AKC, I am sitting here spitting at my screen.


I think it depends on WHY the dog is registered ACA. I actually know several breeders in this area who are being encouraged to "not give money" to the evil AKC and go with ACA as well. So, AKC dogs are being dual registered with ACA and the litters registered only through the ACA.
In that case, the resulting dogs WOULD be eligible for AKC, provided that the parents were full registration.

The spiel of the ACA is that the AKC "looks down" on the average breeder who wants to provide "good pets for normal people." They tell owners that they should register with ACA who will fully support their decision to breed "nice pets" and that registering with AKC is only done by breeders who want to keep "normal people" out of breeding all together.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

selzer said:


> Only the breeder can change the status of a pup registered with a limited registration. In order to get a limited registration both parents MUST have FULL registration. So a dog with limited registration has parents that have Full registration and ARE eligible for full registration. The breeder may have chosen limited for a number or reasons for that pup.
> 
> I am still confused though.


 
A question....couldn't I just lie? For example....couldn't I just tell AKC that my dog is the son of so-so and so-so? Like, randomly pick good dog names?


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

jetscarbie said:


> A question....couldn't I just lie? For example....couldn't I just tell AKC that my dog is the son of so-so and so-so? Like, randomly pick good dog names?


You can't because you don't have any documentation. The breeder could, although it would be highly unethical.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wyominggrandma said:


> Yes, I see what you are saying, but the kicker to this is the words:"if the dog comes from AKC registrable stock."
> I think this will not allow registries from the joke ones like Continental, ACA, etc because I don't believe the pedigree will show enough background, most of them have possibly a sire and dam and grandsire and granddam, but not four or five generations that show purebred breeding stock. I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that this was to help foreign bred dogs without the multitude of required paperwork that are obviously purebred.



You are wrong 

This program is for dogs registered with alternative "domestic registries" such as ConKC, ACA, APRI, etc. Again in their own words:
"For a dog with papers from another _*domestic*_ registry 
AKC has a new program where we are researching pedigrees of dogs that do not have AKC paperwork to determine if the dog comes from AKC registrable stock."

Also this is their promo for the service:
Powered by Google Docs

From the American Rottweiler Club:
"Administrative Research Registration Process: Kristi Munchel, Mari-Beth O’Neill and David Roberts
gave an overview of the Administrative Research Registration Process. Last year the Board asked staff to
pursue all registrable dogs in response to our declining registration numbers every year. They receive
approximately 400 calls or Emails a week from customers who were told their dog is AKC registrable
and in many situations the litter was never registered. This new service allows us to register an AKC
registerable dog without registering the litter. They are now registering about 1/3 of the requests they get.
They are very diligent about looking at the pedigree. In many cases the breeder supplies the new owner
with a bill of sale which indicates the sire and dam of the dog. The FAQ’s are posted on the delegate
portal. If the dog was sold on a limited registration, the breeder is contacted. In all cases they comply
with what the breeder wishes. Pat noted the delegate Email list is held by Jim Crowley. If something is
going to be placed on the delegate portal, we need notification that FAQ is on the portal and if AKC
really wants us to see it they must notify us that it is there and how to access it.
A lot of Collie breeders did test breedings for PRA. The puppies that were not affected were placed but
not registered and they do not want these puppies registered because they are all carriers. In that case
AKC would contact the breeder. If the breeder did not want a dog registered they would not register it. If
a breeder was suspended at the time of the breeding, or if there is a dog with a limited registration in the
pedigree, AKC would not register the dog. AKC is looking at each request on a case-by-case basis and if
it looks like it came through a qualified breeder they use due-diligence in making their decisions. Rather
than just say “no”, if the dog cannot be registered they offer the owner the PAL option. As a result the
owner is able to be recognized and offered some feedback from the American Kennel Club and hopefully
they have been educated about what they did purchase. Judy Hart expressed the feelings of many who
feel this process creates a great deal of unease that these dogs are not being marked in some way and
urged that the dogs involved be identified in the pedigrees." http://www.amrottclub.org/akc_delegate/akc_delegate_062008.pdf

Which likely led to this:

"Administrative Research Registration
David Roberts, Charles Kneifel, and Mari-
Beth O’Neill, participated in this portion of
the meeting via video conference.
Based on a request from the Board of
Directors, the Staff presented a review of the
Administrative Research Registration (ARR)
Service. It was agreed that the number
assigned to an unregistered dog in the pedigree
of an Administrative Research
Registration dog would consist of the letters
“UR” followed by eight numbers." http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/secretary_page/0510.pdf

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/about/secretary_page/0510.pdf
Someone on this board knew someone who got a ConKC dog registered through this program but I'm not sure he's on here any more. There are a lot of dogs who are eligible for AKC registration but because many breeders, especially commercially breeders switched to alternative registries which cater to their needs more these dogs are not being registered. AKC registration numbers are dropping because of the competition with these alternative registries, so this is one of their answers. This came about after they attempted to strike a deal with Petland to encourage Petland to use AKC registered dogs exclusively. It caused a lot of controversy within the dog world, specifically because it will allow dogs from alternate domestic registries such as ConKC, ACA, APRI, etc to be registered with AKC. 



wyominggrandma said:


> AKC used to be equated to high quality purebred dogs, now it is just becoming another registry wanting money. How sad for the many breeders who try to keep up good and if this is actually what this new rule is for, I will hate to see what purebred breeds look like in a few years.


 Well it's hard to stay in business without money. AKC is actually a non-profit organization but they still need money. Since they are a registry, it makes sense they would want people to register dogs which are eligible to be registered. I'm not sure why you assume this means they are registering mixed breeds as purebreds? 

To be honest, outcrossing to different breeds is going to have to be allowed in some form in the future or some of the lower number breeds will not survive. It's only in modern times that we have developed this hang up with "total purity" in purebred dogs. Throughout history outcrossing to different breeds was done to bring in desired traits not easily found in the existing population. Such practices are largely frowned upon in modern times.

That said, AKC recently pushed DCA to allow the Dalmatian Backcross Project dogs, which were the result of a Dal x Pointer breeding that introduced normal uric acid, which can not be found in purebred, registered Dalmatians. The cross happen many, many generations ago and the dogs are indistinguishable from purebred Dals. Orginally DCA and AKC approved the outcross but DCA changed their minds when it came time to register them. There is also the registration of unregistered, unknown Basenjis imported from Africa to widen the gene pool of American Basenjis which were suffering from widespread health problems. This shows a willingness on AKC's part to allow outcrossing for purposes of improving the health of a breed if parent clubs want it. That is a step in the right direction IMO. But I guess that is a subject for another thread!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Well alrighty AgileGSD. 
Guess you put me in my place since I know NOTHING about registering and breeding dogs. 
I talked to AKC by phone and was told what I replied, but who knew that the AKC rep didn't know what they were talking about either.


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## jetscarbie (Feb 29, 2008)

Emoore said:


> You can't because you don't have any documentation. The breeder could, although it would be highly unethical.


 
Thank you. I always wondered about that.

So if a breeder has two good dogs...example, Ben and Sally. Both have the go ahead health wise. Both are trained, etc..... But poor old Ben can't get Sally pregnant. So the breeder uses good old stand by dog...Fred. Fred doesn't have anything..no titles, no hip test, etc...... Couldn't the breeder breed them and still claim to AKC that Ben and Sally are the parents.......even though it's really Fred and Sally?

Documents are so easy to fake nowdays. I wonder what how often people/buyers get their pups registered using fake documents? That's why I've always been a little confused by people that post their dog's whole line.... Seems like a dishonest person could use that information. Maybe I'm just a paranoid person.:laugh:


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

jetscarbie said:


> Couldn't the breeder breed them and still claim to AKC that Ben and Sally are the parents.......even though it's really Fred and Sally?


I imagine that with the advent of DNA testing, there's much less of that than there used to be.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

I found out from the original owner that the sire's parents were AKC and ACA and the dam's parents were both AKC. Supposedly she registered strictly ACA because it was cheaper. But like I said in the beginning I didn't care if he was registered and I don't plan on breeding him. Since i don't plan on having him in any competitions it really doesn't matter if he has papers or not. I was just more curious than anything. We love him and he's bringing plenty of joy into my life right now and that's all that really matters at the end of the day for me.

Thank you everyone for your replies. It is much appreciated.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Here is another possibility, maybe she was registered ACA because the breeders were suspended from the AKC for some reason. Registration costs, I don't know $35? AKC. It is not so much that you would seek out a different registry so you could save $15. If the breeders were a nasty puppy mill, and were audited, and failed, and were suspended from the AKC for 2, 5, or 10 years or life, then maybe going with another registry means they can continue to make puppies and sell them.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wyominggrandma said:


> Well alrighty AgileGSD.
> Guess you put me in my place since I know NOTHING about registering and breeding dogs.
> I talked to AKC by phone and was told what I replied, but who knew that the AKC rep didn't know what they were talking about either.


 No reason to be offended, wasn't trying to put you in your place. It's just that the info you were posting was not accurate with the current AKC policies. So I figured I would post some info as stated on their website, in their minutes and in statements put out by AKC parent clubs. Not stated by me, although I have known of ConKC dogs that people have gotten AKC numbers for through this pedigree research program. It is decided on a case by case basis. If your question is can ConKC registered dogs be registered with AKC, ConKC is not on their "approved registry list" so ConKC dogs are not able to be cross registered the way CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) dogs are able to be. But some CKC dogs are eligible for AKC register through the pedigree research program. 




mrsartz said:


> I found out from the original owner that the sire's parents were AKC and ACA and the dam's parents were both AKC. Supposedly she registered strictly ACA because it was cheaper. But like I said in the beginning I didn't care if he was registered and I don't plan on breeding him. Since i don't plan on having him in any competitions it really doesn't matter if he has papers or not. I was just more curious than anything. We love him and he's bringing plenty of joy into my life right now and that's all that really matters at the end of the day for me.
> 
> Thank you everyone for your replies. It is much appreciated.


 If that is the case, you shouldn't have any trouble getting him registered through the program I posted. I'd suggest going with that program as opposed to the PAL/ILP because you don't have to neuter him until/unless you want to. 



selzer said:


> Here is another possibility, maybe she was registered ACA because the breeders were suspended from the AKC for some reason. Registration costs, I don't know $35? AKC. It is not so much that you would seek out a different registry so you could save $15. If the breeders were a nasty puppy mill, and were audited, and failed, and were suspended from the AKC for 2, 5, or 10 years or life, then maybe going with another registry means they can continue to make puppies and sell them.


 The reason many pet breeders are switching to these alternate registries is because they are cheaper and more accommodating then AKC. I suspect the majority have left AKC for reasons other than suspension based on AKC's attempts over the past few years to win them back. These alternate registries have become a threat to AKC, which can easily be seen the the steady decline in AKC's registration numbers and changes AKC has been making over the past few years. 

These alternate registries really cater to the pet market. For example ConKC offers:

- free litter registration
- a reward system for breeders that gives them more free services and free stuff
- registration packets that appeal to pet owners. The basic packet is $24.99 and comes with a registration certificate and card featuring a picture of their dog, an ID tag and a 1 year subscitpion to ConKC's magazine (looks similar to AKC's family dog) and the deluxe package is $49.99 and comes with that stuff plus a Home Again microchip.

So it is cheaper all around. If one has two litters a year, that could potentially save them $100 or so just in litter registration fees. And from a pet owner's perspective, you get "more bang for your buck" if you register with ConKC as opposed to AKC. The rest of the stuff that makes AKC a better registry in our eyes doesn't really apply or matter to most pet owners. I know APRI is quite similar in that they offer. From a glanceACA appears to be as well.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Which is what I posted, it has to be an approved registry not the joke registries. Ckc is Canadian kc. Contkc is a joke one
I just posted what I was told on the phone by an AKC rep not what was just written. According to you the Akc rep must
t not know what she was talking about since you insist you have the only correct information. So I will drop out of this conversation since I know nothing about registration dogs with AKC


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

wyominggrandma said:


> Which is what I posted, it has to be an approved registry not the joke registries. Ckc is Canadian kc. Contkc is a joke one
> I just posted what I was told on the phone by an AKC rep not what was just written. According to you the Akc rep must
> t not know what she was talking about since you insist you have the only correct information. So I will drop out of this conversation since I know nothing about registration dogs with AKC


Just for the sake of I don't know, but when I called about what I needed to get my bitch from Germany registered, the individual at the AKC told me I couldn't register her. Yeah, right! They actually did not know what they were talking about, and I got my answer from someone else a day or two later.

I think there is a hunting dog registry that is more about hunting dogs. But I know nothing about that. 

I don't think the fake registries pose that much of a threat to AKC. But AKC may be hurting right now due to the general economic status. I am sitting on a pair of registrations and a litter registration now.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

wyominggrandma said:


> Which is what I posted, it has to be an approved registry not the joke registries. Ckc is Canadian kc. Contkc is a joke one


I don't think you need to do this pedigree research thing to get a CanKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered dog to be AKC registered. AKC has a form you can fill out already to do that:
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/foreign.pdf


I wish I'd known about this research thing earlier though, I would have done that instead of getting Bianca an ILP/PAL number... 
She should be registrable with AKC but there were problems with her CanKC paperwork (given wrong papers) and she is also now UKC registered but AKC does not accept UKC paperwork. So I ended up just doing the ILP/PAL thing instead.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

wyominggrandma said:


> Which is what I posted, it has to be an approved registry not the joke registries. Ckc is Canadian kc. Contkc is a joke one
> I just posted what I was told on the phone by an AKC rep not what was just written. According to you the Akc rep must
> t not know what she was talking about since you insist you have the only correct information. So I will drop out of this conversation since I know nothing about registration dogs with AKC


 I have no idea why you are getting so defensive about this. 

If someone answering phones at AKC told you that the pedigree research service program was for dogs registered with CanKC, they weren't correct. It happens. Selzer said someone told her she couldn't register her import but that was not correct either. CanKC is an approved AKC registry, so nothing special has to be done to dual register your dog with AKC/CanKC. Try reading what I've posted on this thread concerning the pedigree research service, if you really want to understand. 



Chicagocanine said:


> I don't think you need to do this pedigree research thing to get a CanKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered dog to be AKC registered. AKC has a form you can fill out already to do that:
> http://www.akc.org/pdfs/foreign.pdf


 You are correct. The pedigree research service is for dogs who are registered with registries which are _not approved_ by AKC. CanKC is approved by AKC. 




Chicagocanine said:


> I wish I'd known about this research thing earlier though, I would have done that instead of getting Bianca an ILP/PAL number...
> She should be registrable with AKC but there were problems with her CanKC paperwork (given wrong papers) and she is also now UKC registered but AKC does not accept UKC paperwork. So I ended up just doing the ILP/PAL thing instead.


 I'm sure you could have gotten her registered through it using the UKC registration. UKC is not an approved AKC registry but a UKC pedigree can be used for the pedigree research service program. 

I hope the OP does try to register their dog through this pedigree research program - it will be interesting for them to post the results


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

mrsartz said:


> I found out from the original owner that the sire's parents were AKC and ACA and the dam's parents were both AKC. Supposedly she registered strictly ACA because it was cheaper.


This sounds like a lie to me. If one of the grandparents was ACA registered, then that means the sire couldn't be AKC registered, which means the puppies couldn't be AKC registered. 

Now all that agileGSD is talking about would be something to explore, but on the basic understanding I have of AKC registration, if one of the parents isn't AKC registered, the pups aren't eligible unless you explore some special avenue of registration like agileGSD is talking about. I really don't see the point of all the hassle though, unless you want to show the dog in conformation shows.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

Rerun said:


> This sounds like a lie to me. If one of the grandparents was ACA registered, then that means the sire couldn't be AKC registered, which means the puppies couldn't be AKC registered.
> 
> Now all that agileGSD is talking about would be something to explore, but on the basic understanding I have of AKC registration, if one of the parents isn't AKC registered, the pups aren't eligible unless you explore some special avenue of registration like agileGSD is talking about. I really don't see the point of all the hassle though, unless you want to show the dog in conformation shows.


That all makes perfect logical sense to me. Unless of course by some dumb chance the sire's parent who was ACA came from AKC stock which is I guess where that research might actually come in handy.

I'm not really to concerned about it to be honest though it would be interesting to try it just to see how it turns out. I don't plan on breeding him so some don't have to worry about Luke's "nice pet" genes being thrown into the gene pool. And even though I do believe that he is a great dog with a couple possible show qualities, even at 13 and a half weeks, I haven't given much serious thought at all into showing him.

I mean look at him...without seeing any kind of papers at all who would even know whether he was registered at all much less with which registry.



















I love my puppy! Again, thank you everyone for the replies...even the person who wanted to spit on the screen.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The only reason I like being registered with akc is the obedience shows and all the other events it opens up. I know the other registries have events but they are much fewer and farther in between. I never saw myself as a person that would go to dog shows but I joined a GSD training club, and now I'm going to shows and earning titles. I guess it's to each his own but this is a very interesting topic. I think the akc is correct for allowing mixed breeds to participate in shows as this is the way to get more people involved in not just those sports but in actually doing something with their dog that betters the perception of all dogs. It's never a bad thing for people to want to train their dogs more just for the sake of competition.

Mrsartz you have a beautiful boy and you should definitely look into pal registration, the trials are a blast and you will develop an amazing relationship with your dog. He looks like he is from working stock and would love training immensely.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

martemchik said:


> The only reason I like being registered with akc is the obedience shows and all the other events it opens up. I know the other registries have events but they are much fewer and farther in between. I never saw myself as a person that would go to dog shows but I joined a GSD training club, and now I'm going to shows and earning titles. I guess it's to each his own but this is a very interesting topic. I think the akc is correct for allowing mixed breeds to participate in shows as this is the way to get more people involved in not just those sports but in actually doing something with their dog that betters the perception of all dogs. It's never a bad thing for people to want to train their dogs more just for the sake of competition.
> 
> Mrsartz you have a beautiful boy and you should definitely look into pal registration, the trials are a blast and you will develop an amazing relationship with your dog. He looks like he is from working stock and would love training immensely.


Thank you.  I know he is definitely eager to learn. When I am clicker training him he is always eagerly looking at me as if he's waiting for me to tell him what to do next. It would be interesting maybe to go to some of these shows and see what they're really about. It can't be anything but fun. Right?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you've clicker trained him correctly hes looking at you for a treat! Haha, but yes the shows are a lot of fun, especially if you are competitive and want to prove what your dog knows outside of his routine places. Also seeing how he stacks up against other dogs and maybe even a reflection of yourself as a trainer is never a bad thing.


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## mrsartz (Oct 19, 2011)

martemchik said:


> If you've clicker trained him correctly hes looking at you for a treat! Haha, but yes the shows are a lot of fun, especially if you are competitive and want to prove what your dog knows outside of his routine places. Also seeing how he stacks up against other dogs and maybe even a reflection of yourself as a trainer is never a bad thing.



 So true!! He does love the treats! and good ideas there too. Thank you!


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

He's really cute! If you like clicker training but are not that interested in regular obedience showing, I'd suggest looking into Rally obedience. I've been told it's a lot of fun.


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