# Food aggression



## vc320 (Jul 19, 2011)

I want to make sure that my 8 week old does not become food aggressive. He is gonna be a big boy and we have a 3 1/2 year old son and several other animals in the house.

Since I got him I have been having him sit and wait to be fed. Lunch (other than today) is used as training treats. I have been petting him, messing wish his ears/feet/etc, and putting my hand in his bowl as he has been eating. We have also been working on "give" when he has toys or chews.

However, tonight while I was petting him while he was eating he gave out a small growl.

How do you all go about preventing food aggression? And what should I do if/when he growls at me?


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## cassadee7 (Nov 26, 2009)

IMO, the best way to prevent food aggression is to not mess with them while they're eating. Let them eat in peace. Maybe toss a yummy treat at him when you walk by and he is eating.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I agree with Shawn. If that bowl is on the floor then you gave it to him and you can't take it away unless you are going to give him something in return. You may hold the bowl and feed him from it but once you've set it down then don't mess with it.

If you are working on "give" for toys or treats then you should trade it for something of higher value to him. If you just continuously took my stuff from me, eventually I'll run the other way because you are no fun. 

You can pet him and mess with his ears and feet when he's not eating. And you should so he's used to being handled.

I realize there may come a day that you HAVE to take something from his mouth so work on building trust instead of trying to get him used to you messing with his food.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Here's a thread about preventing food aggression in puppies: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/feeding-our-puppy/147739-any-way-prevent-food-aggression.html


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Hmm,guess I have done it wrong all these years. My dogs expect me to mess with them while eating, chewing on bones, or toys and I have never had a dog with food aggression. I don't want to worry that my grandchild might walk by and pet the dog while he is eating and get bit. Or a bone or toy gets taken away while playing. 
Just another part of normal everyday living, dogs don't run my home,humans do. Never know when someone is going to take away your bone or food or toy. Just accept it and you get told what a good dog you are and then get the goodies back.


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## koda girl (Feb 15, 2010)

I agree with you wyoming. From the day my dog came home I always put my hands in her food dish, sometimes took the dish away, then gave it back. Same thing with a bone, I just walk up and lift the bone up in my hand. She is now 20 months old and no food agression at all, even at the dog park when some people feel the need to give the dogs treats, some people have to get their dogs away fast or there will be a fight. Not Koda. If your puppy is growling give him a stern "NO" and do it more often so he gets use to it. I even had strangers, well my friends do it also so it wasn't just her family doing it.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> Hmm,guess I have done it wrong all these years. My dogs expect me to mess with them while eating, chewing on bones, or toys and I have never had a dog with food aggression. I don't want to worry that my grandchild might walk by and pet the dog while he is eating and get bit. Or a bone or toy gets taken away while playing.
> Just another part of normal everyday living, dogs don't run my home,humans do. Never know when someone is going to take away your bone or food or toy. Just accept it and you get told what a good dog you are and then get the goodies back.


Unfortunately, this is not how all dogs operate, and it is a good way to bit or MAKE a dog food aggressive. I've seen it happen too many times by stupid people working in shelters. Maybe with strong-nerved dogs you can do that, but typically it doesn't help most dogs.


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I generally don't mess with my dogs while they're eating, but will remove something from their mouths if I need to. They have never shown aggression. I think you should be able to remove something from the bowl if needed, but not mess with them while they're eating a general basis. But like I said, mine have never show aggression towards food. I can pluck a big meaty bone right out of their mouths without a problem, so I wouldn't be positive on what advice to give here.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

well I am not stupid and have helped many people and many dogs not have food aggression... It is not rocket science, its simply having the dog realize that taking food and toys and such are a part of life and they learn to deal with it. I am NOT talking about mature rescue dogs, I am talking about starting from an 8 weeks old puppy and starting it from day one, just another lesson to learn like housebreaking, commands, etc. You do it fro a young age and the puppy will learn.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

The problem with messing with them is in a LOT of dogs you're basically teaching them to growl and bite you because you're being a bully and taking their food away when you gave it to them. You loose a lot of respect because you're not being FAIR. If you absolutely HAVE to take something from your dog, you should always reward with something of equal or higher value. I teach my dog to "trade" when it's NOT meal time. I feel if I put something down for them to eat, they should be able to eat it. If they have something they aren't suppose to eat, they learn to trade it for something of equal or higher value. This is being a FAIR leader.

Children should be taught to not bother a dog while they're eating. Again, it's about RESPECTING your dog. If you're trying to eat a meal would you enjoy me playing with your hair, hands, feet or petting you?


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

I've always been able to handle my dogs and their food, bowls etc..at any given moment.

When they're puppies, I've always stirred or fooled around with their food while they're eating - often just picking up some kibble and offering it in my hand.

I've had lots of dogs and never had one growl at me for playing with their food.

Make sure your pup knows that there is food and you are a provider of good things.


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## vc320 (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately, like I was afraid of, there are huge variations on opinion so its hard to determine which is actually best.

How do I determine what a high value treat is. I made him some oatmeal/garlic chicken treats last week and he isn't really into them. Right now, for training I am using pieces of his kibble. When I work on give, when he has chews or treats, I don't trade with him. I tell him to give, once he gives it, I praise and pet him, and then I give it back.

Do you guys ALWAYS have treats or something physically on you? My concern is being out somewhere and him picking up something of the ground that I don't want him to have. I want him to know that if I tell him to give it to me that he needs to give it to me and that his only reward may just be "good boy" and pets.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Did you read the post I linked to? Did you watch the videos? The post gives detailed instructions on how to teach your puppy that resource guarding is not necessary. If you do lots of trading work with his stuff you establish a foundation so that when he DOES get ahold of something he's not supposed to have, that you can't give back to him, it's no big deal. I just say "_thank you_, what a good dog!" in a happy tone of voice. I like to trade a toy for food, (and give back the toy after the reward, an extra bonus!), for a different toy, or a low value bone (nylabone, not raw) for a toy, etc. Play trading games with him for a few minutes several times a day. Even if you don't have anything to reward him with at the time, you can always go get one with him - "yay, let's go get a treat!", and then run to the cabinet or wherever.

As far as "high value", it's whatever it means to your dog. If he loves it, it's high value, whether or not anyone else's dog loves it. What my dogs will do backflips for may not interest your dog at all. You have to try some things a figure it out - might be hot dog bits, cheese cubes, jerkey treats, meatballs (frozen ones work well), freeze dried liver....


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

When you find a high value treat, you'll know it! My high value treats are not usually made for dogs so it would be things like hot dog, chicken, cheese, various left overs.



vc320 said:


> Do you guys ALWAYS have treats or something physically on you? My concern is being out somewhere and him picking up something of the ground that I don't want him to have. I want him to know that if I tell him to give it to me that he needs to give it to me and that his only reward may just be "good boy" and pets.


As a puppy (or just starting to train an adult), yes, I have rewards on me constantly so they are always getting something for doing good things while they are learning. I will then gradually taper off treats and offer only a "good".

As to your original question, I'm also in the camp of not messing with my dogs food on a regular basis. I will occasionally pet them if I feel a need to do but I don't "work on it" and I've pulled raw food (SUPER HIGH VALUE) out of my dogs mouth on occasion. 

I know that if someone is constantly messing with something that is important to me, it will only be so long before I've had enough and tell them to leave me alone. If it happens on occasion, I'm less likely to freak out about it.


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## s14roller (Nov 18, 2010)

vc320 said:


> Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately, like I was afraid of, there are huge variations on opinion so its hard to determine which is actually best.
> 
> How do I determine what a high value treat is. I made him some oatmeal/garlic chicken treats last week and he isn't really into them. Right now, for training I am using pieces of his kibble. When I work on give, when he has chews or treats, I don't trade with him. I tell him to give, once he gives it, I praise and pet him, and then I give it back.
> 
> Do you guys ALWAYS have treats or something physically on you? My concern is being out somewhere and him picking up something of the ground that I don't want him to have. I want him to know that if I tell him to give it to me that he needs to give it to me and that his only reward may just be "good boy" and pets.


Personally, I would figure out a way to correct it while it's young and can't do much damage. I regret not figuring this out when my mom's Pom when she was a pup (didn't even try to touch her food so we had no idea that she'd be resource guarding when she grew up). Now, when you try to take something out of her mouth, she'll growl and nip at you. 

With my GSD pup, I have also played with her food when she was young. I'd have my hand in there, pick some up, then put them back in. Toward the end when she's finishing, I'd grab a handful, and when she was done with the bowl, I'd continue dropping piece by piece in. 

It also may help to just feed the pup a bit from your hand.

As for treats, every dog is different, but try string cheese or hot dogs as well. 
In terms of store bought stuff, some dogs like the dried liver treats, and also the Natural Balance rolls or Wellness wellbites treats. 

Teach a "leave it" command. Also, you are giving it back which should be corrected. I was doing the same thing and my trainer told me not to. It makes sense...for the leave it, (you also said you wanted it for your dog to leave something on the ground that you didn't want it to have), you should give her the reward from your hand, but not let the dog eat the treat off the ground that you said leave it. My dog learned the new command in a day so it's an easy switch. 

No need for treats on you 24-7...although I do have a bag of treats in the leaving room (just kibble) in case I do need it. A "leave it" followed by lots of praise is still fine. Majority of the training you will be prepared with treats anyway and that's when most of the training will stick.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

No. I do not have treats on me 24/7.  Work on trading with him with treats (and that "treat" might be a toy if that is his high value). Once he understands it then phase out the "treats" and start substituting play in. Then if you are out you can treat him by letting him get a little play. 

If you don't want him to pick something up off the ground, then teach him Leave It. Lauri told me a great way to teach it. Treat on the ground, higher value treat in your hand. I had to cover the treat on the ground with my foot when she went for it but as soon as she looked at me and left the treat, I gave her the better treat. The idea is they look at whatever is on the ground, then look to you and you reward them. Eventually it sinks in that you have better stuff than the wonderfully smelly stuff on the ground that they would love to taste and then roll in.


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## vc320 (Jul 19, 2011)

Thank you for the link Debbie! I didn't have time to go through all of it first thing this morning.

However this morning I was kinda doing the first part on my own, but wasn't doing it "correct." I would take a handful of food and close my fist. If he was sniffing/licking/pawing at my hand I would keep it closed. If he would sit and just chillax I would open in and let him eat some.... now I need to do the same thing, but rather than let him eat what is in that hand, I need to just feed him one piece from my other hand.

Man I hope I don't screw up this dog.

I do have concerns about string cheese and hot dogs and what not. I just worry about people food. I don't want to give him pancrititis. Plus I haven't been wanting to give him any thing "extreme" the last couple days because I wasn't able to transition food from the breeders.


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## vc320 (Jul 19, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> The problem with messing with them is in a LOT of dogs you're basically teaching them to growl and bite you because you're being a bully and taking their food away when you gave it to them. You loose a lot of respect because you're not being FAIR. If you absolutely HAVE to take something from your dog, you should always reward with something of equal or higher value. I teach my dog to "trade" when it's NOT meal time. I feel if I put something down for them to eat, they should be able to eat it. If they have something they aren't suppose to eat, they learn to trade it for something of equal or higher value. This is being a FAIR leader.
> 
> Children should be taught to not bother a dog while they're eating. Again, it's about RESPECTING your dog. If you're trying to eat a meal would you enjoy me playing with your hair, hands, feet or petting you?


Yes I know I need to teach my son to not bother the dog while he is eating, but as with dogs, a child doesn't learn instantly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

go with chicken breast instead then. 

IMO.....When I am training, actual obedience training, she does not get the treat if she's bothering my hand. But if I was trading for something then I would immediately give the treat as soon as they dropped the toy/bone because what you are rewarding is the dropping part. Remember that dogs relate an action only in the first couple of seconds so if you wait until he stops bothering your hand then you are rewarding for that instead of for trading.

You won't screw your puppy up! And remember that there is a thousand different paths to the same way. Alter it as you need for your puppy.


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## vc320 (Jul 19, 2011)

Just plain, boiled chicken?

I've just seen too many fear aggressive shepherds in my time working as a Vet tech. I know medical stuff, but not behavioral.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

vc320 said:


> However this morning I was kinda doing the first part on my own, but wasn't doing it "correct." I would take a handful of food and close my fist. If he was sniffing/licking/pawing at my hand I would keep it closed. If he would sit and just chillax I would open in and let him eat some.... now I need to do the same thing, but rather than let him eat what is in that hand, I need to just feed him one piece from my other hand.


It depends. For "leave it", where I actually give that command, I never let the dog get whatever they're supposed to leave alone, I reward with something else. But if you're referring to the "it's yer choice" game (is that in the link I posted? I don't have time to check right now!), it's a default behavior, not an actual leave it command. You're teaching impulse control around food, and it's sort of a combo default leave it and eye contact, but neither are cued, they're simply expected. Dog stops mugging your hand for the food and looks at you, the hand opens and you feed from it. Dog goes for the hand again, it closes and feeding stops. 

And for a brand new puppy I do always have my treat bag on me, partly because I do lots of very brief training sessions, and also so I can capture, mark and reward things that the puppy offers up spontaneously. But no, I don't have treats on me at all times now that my dogs are older. If they do something spectacular that I think warrants more than praise (say, I called them off chasing one of the cats or barking at a squirrel through the sliding glass door into the backyard), I'll take them to the cabinet and get them a treat.


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## vc320 (Jul 19, 2011)

Debbie, yes, it was the "It's your choice."

You also said in another post of yours on your thread that you dog will bring you random items- glasses, remote controls, etc. She does that for you to give her a bone?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

vc320 said:


> You also said in another post of yours on your thread that you dog will bring you random items- glasses, remote controls, etc. She does that for you to give her a bone?


And knives! :wild:










Yes, that's probably the result of trading games gone awry, lol! I spent so much time teaching her to bring me stuff she'd picked up off the floor(_usually_ her own toys or bones) that she started looking for new and unusual things to bring me in the hopes of getting something yummy in return. But I'd rather have her willing to bring me almost anything knowing that it's a good thing to give me stuff, because it shows trust, than having her learn to guard valued resources because I might try to take them away, or to learn the keep away game. I'd rather she not steal the remote (and she actually does not do this anymore) and bring it to me than to run off with it expecting me to chase her around the house to get it back.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> well I am not stupid and have helped many people and many dogs not have food aggression... It is not rocket science, its simply having the dog realize that taking food and toys and such are a part of life and they learn to deal with it. I am NOT talking about mature rescue dogs, I am talking about starting from an 8 weeks old puppy and starting it from day one, just another lesson to learn like housebreaking, commands, etc. You do it fro a young age and the puppy will learn.


I'm talking from any age. I've seen people do what you are describing, being a bully and teaching dogs that they have no control over their food, making their feeding and playing unpredictable for no reason. It teaches puppies to guard their food a lot of the time to prevent you from meanly taking it away to prove your point. Dogs don't view it the way you do 9 times out of ten. I'm glad you haven't been bit yet though. 

Because of people being stupid with puppies in the past at our shelter, we have a new protocol in place to give all of the puppies their OWN bowls (not large feeders) and give them two per feeding, to switch them out. We do this 2 or 3 times a week for growing puppies, and haven't had a single issue develop in these puppies, where before it was give or take and a lot developed guarding from people and other dogs as a result of the management of food.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

First you basically call me stupid because of the way I do things. Now, you are pretty much calling me a bully and making their eating and playing unpredictable. 
Excuse me, did someone crown you the know it all of dogs? I have probably owned and trained dogs longer than you have been born DJETZEL. I have worked with dogs for over 50 years in every situation. 
Great that your shelter has a protocal that works BUT that does not mean that other ways are not good.
I have NEVER bullied a dog nor taught it to be aggressive just because I feel that my dogs in my house are made safe by not acting aggressive when something is taken from them. I AM NOT STUPID NOR AM I A BULLY. You are insulting


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

Back to the subject and questions...

No, I don't always have treats on me because when a pup learns a behavior, they don't always need a treat for complying.

Repetition, repetition, repetition ingrains a behavior in a dog and then the learned behavior becomes his normal response.

That's one reason not to overload your puppy with new commands or expectations until they have the first learned behaviors down pat.

Puppies aren't ruined by a few tries that don't work for you. 

They really aren't that fragile.

Enjoy your puppy and trust yourself to learn.

You'll find your way the same way you work with your child.

Have fun!


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## vc320 (Jul 19, 2011)

Thank you for the useful comments.

We've been doing the "It's yer choice" game with his meals. So far just sitting in front of him with the food in my hand and also putting a piece on the floor next to him. We haven't done any of the walking around yet.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> First you basically call me stupid because of the way I do things. Now, you are pretty much calling me a bully and making their eating and playing unpredictable.
> Excuse me, did someone crown you the know it all of dogs? I have probably owned and trained dogs longer than you have been born DJETZEL. I have worked with dogs for over 50 years in every situation.
> Great that your shelter has a protocal that works BUT that does not mean that other ways are not good.
> I have NEVER bullied a dog nor taught it to be aggressive just because I feel that my dogs in my house are made safe by not acting aggressive when something is taken from them. I AM NOT STUPID NOR AM I A BULLY. You are insulting


I never called you stupid....  I'm telling you that what you're suggesting others do is dangerous to them and their dogs. You ARE being a bully to dogs by just taking away their food and expecting them to deal with it, and like I said- STABLE, STRONG NERVED dogs may accept this (which from the sounds of it is about all you've dealt with?), but rescue dogs, fear aggressive dogs, dogs with shoddy nerves, and those with less confidence will NOT just accept a person taking their food time and time again.  I do not care HOW long you've worked with dogs, I've only worked with dogs for a couple years and have already seen what YOU'RE doing, backfire badly and cause dogs to be pts as a result. 

I ALSO teach my dogs not to be aggressive with food, but I do it in a safe, positive manner.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

wyominggrandma said:


> First you basically call me stupid because of the way I do things. Now, you are pretty much calling me a bully and making their eating and playing unpredictable.
> Excuse me, did someone crown you the know it all of dogs? I have probably owned and trained dogs longer than you have been born DJETZEL. I have worked with dogs for over 50 years in every situation.
> Great that your shelter has a protocal that works BUT that does not mean that other ways are not good.
> I have NEVER bullied a dog nor taught it to be aggressive just because I feel that my dogs in my house are made safe by not acting aggressive when something is taken from them. I AM NOT STUPID NOR AM I A BULLY. You are insulting


 
Got to say I am with you as far as i treat my puppies. They learn from a tiny pup that I or my wife control their food! How else can it be, as we are the ones that buy it it, prepare it and hand it to them.

Ridiculous to think that the owner cannot take anything the dog has whenever we want to. now, do we torment the dog, of course not. But I have never had any of our many dogs (all GSD's) show the least bit of food guarding behavior with the family or with any of the kids who have come over while we are feeding the dog(s).

A "bully" - how would one do that to a dog? By making him obey or by making him accept what I do to his food? Heh! Heh!


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Thank you Codmaster. Djetzel, since you don't know what kinds of dogs I have or have not dealt with, nor do you know me, you must think alot of yourself to get on this forum and state that I am a bully and the things I say are dangerous. I can't imagine how much you think of yourself and that your way is the only one to be able to do things correctly. Never had a food aggressive dog in my life and I just expect my dogs to accept daily things, I don't play " I take you food away and will give you this instead. " My dogs are well rounded safe, happy dogs that don't bite, attack, lunge or any other thing. I have trained dogs for years, ALL BREEDS, shown dogs and rescued dogs. How dare you insinuate that I don't know anything... How dare you tell me how wrong my training is. I think you need to get off your pedestal that you have put yourself on and learn that you are not perfect.
I won't respond to any more of your posts. You are rude and have no respect for anyone other than yourself and all your knowledge that you THINK you have.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Could everyone please stop bickering with each other and try to help the OP instead? Thank you.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wyominggrandma said:


> Never had a food aggressive dog in my life and I just expect my dogs to accept daily things, I don't play " I take you food away and will give you this instead."


Can you explain why you don't think it's a good idea to teach an 8 week old puppy to trust you not to take valued resources away? I think it's great that you've never had a problem with resource guarding, but since I never know what my tiny little puppy is going to end up being once they're an adult, I prefer to spend as much time training and molding him/her into that ideal dog as I can. That includes tons of foundation work, and a big part of that is developing a relationship of trust.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wyominggrandma said:


> ....I just expect my dogs to accept daily things....


I wanted to respond to this line specifically - I also expect my dogs to accept daily things. But the reason I can do that is that I start teaching them what I expect from them from the time they come home as a brand new puppy. They learn what those daily things are going to be that they will have to accept - the house rules they'll live by, the manners I expect them to demonstrate, and they learn that I'm fair and consistent. I don't give them things and then arbitrarily take them away, for no good reason, just because I can. But because I've taken the time to built that trust, I CAN take things away from them if I need to, and I do. _When it's necessary_, not just to prove that I'm the boss.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

My dogs are happy, well mannered, love people, trust people and love life. They go everywhere with me, CAN go everywhere with me. I start the day I bring them home, they learn to have total trust in me and accept the vet, doggie day care, crowds and things like that without a problem, BECAUSE they trust me. I have never given them a reason not to trust me, so they do. They get love, affection, and a caring home in exchange. Could someone tell me why it is so bad to reach down, take their food away and then give it back to them? Why is it so wrong to take a bone or toy away and then give it back? If a puppy has learned trust in his/her owner then they know they will get it back. If a puppy has learned that the toy/food will be returned, then they don't get excited and know they get it back.They also won't be aggressive when it happens at a later date. I have total trust in my dogs and am secure that they know whatever happens, they can look to me to take care of them. Can anyone actually say that is wrong?
Teaching trust is taught in many ways, so no one persons idea is the only one.
When raising my daughter, if it was time to take away the toys to go to bed, it was not a temper tantrum. She had trust to know she would get it back in the morning. 
My puppies have grown into dogs with sound temperaments and loving attitudes. Maybe the people on this forum who think they know it all can say I am not correct, but I do know one thing: I won't be posting on this forum asking how to deal with a biting lunging aggressive dog because someone moved their food bowl.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> My dogs are happy, well mannered, love people, trust people and love life. They go everywhere with me, CAN go everywhere with me. I start the day I bring them home, they learn to have total trust in me and accept the vet, doggie day care, crowds and things like that without a problem, BECAUSE they trust me. I have never given them a reason not to trust me, so they do. They get love, affection, and a caring home in exchange. Could someone tell me why it is so bad to reach down, take their food away and then give it back to them? Why is it so wrong to take a bone or toy away and then give it back? If a puppy has learned trust in his/her owner then they know they will get it back. If a puppy has learned that the toy/food will be returned, then they don't get excited and know they get it back.They also won't be aggressive when it happens at a later date. I have total trust in my dogs and am secure that they know whatever happens, they can look to me to take care of them. Can anyone actually say that is wrong?
> Teaching trust is taught in many ways, so no one persons idea is the only one.
> When raising my daughter, if it was time to take away the toys to go to bed, it was not a temper tantrum. She had trust to know she would get it back in the morning.
> My puppies have grown into dogs with sound temperaments and loving attitudes. Maybe the people on this forum who think they know it all can say I am not correct, but I do know one thing: I won't be posting on this forum asking how to deal with a biting lunging aggressive dog because someone moved their food bowl.


You've answered no ones questions and are being extremely vague. I think what you do is dangerous, but I'm not going to argue. Please stop putting words in my mouth though. I didn't call you anything or insinuate anything.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

um, yes I did. I was asked why I felt it was okay to take a puppies food away. I replied because I wanted the puppy to grow up knowing that if its food or toy or whatever gets taken away, it WILL get it back. It does not have to resourse guard and bite or growl, BECAUSE it will get whatever it had back. I want it to trust me to return the item, BUT because it learns it will get said item back, I don't have to worry about them biting or being aggressive in case a child or someone else takes a toy away, or moves the food bowl while they are eating.
I have seen many many dogs being turned into resuce or humane societies because they DO growl and ARE food aggressive or toy aggressive. If they are so aggressive to be dangerous, most rescues or pounds will put them to sleep, usually they are adult dogs. WHY is it so bad to teach the puppy that it is okay to have it taken away and it will be returned. 
As far as the second "question" I was asked why I expect my dogs to accept daily things... I guess I might ask WHY NOT? Going to the vet, riding in a car, going for walks at a dog show, going to the dog park, walking among crowds of people, being told to lay down, being told to get into the crate. Being fed twice a day, but maybe just maybe the food bowl or bone or toy might be taken away and then given back. Having a shot, having a temp taken, cutting toe nails, having xrays without being sedated, walking like a good dog without lunging at people, dogs, skateboards, etc going by............... What in the heck is wrong with expecting my dogs to accept that? They are so used to doing all this stuff from day one and every day normal things, that from a puppy they have learned that this is okay and can even be fun. 
I guess I just don't get it.... I want my dogs to be safe and easy to be around. I don't want to have to lock them in another room when someone comes over, I don't want to have to muzzle them for vet care or shots or toe nail clipping. They accept these DAILY things because from an early age they learned to accept them without stress or pain or being forced. They learn to trust me and to know I will take care of them. They learn that life is okay, even when life throws a monkey wrench at them.... To me this is good training and good lessons. NOT DANGEROUS OR STUPIDITY, BUT NORMAL LIFE. I love my dogs, but if I need to teach them from day one to accept all these things so they don't do things that are not acceptable or safe, I do it because I love my dogs, but I also believe that a person/child/human should be safe around dogs, ALL dogs and to be taught what is acceptable or not is just common sense. If dogs were taught acceptable behaviour from a tiny puppy, to be held, touched, brushed, nails clipped, being handled by strangers, then there would be alot less dogs ending up in shelters. I read about the different things, like this person asking to figure out how to make her pup not food aggressive or resourse guarding and it just seems like alot of the replies are to treat them with "kid gloves" and make YOUR daily life work around the dog instead of the other way around.
So, did I sound evasive this time"?" Did I answer your questions?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wyominggrandma said:


> I was asked why I expect my dogs to accept daily things...


I hope that wasn't directed at me, because that's not even close to the question that I asked.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I thought I answered your question, but guess not. I give up, this is not worth the time or effort to try to explain why I do what I do and how. Since I don't spend hours and hours posting to this forum, I guess I am not as knowledgable as you are.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wyominggrandma said:


> I want my dogs to be safe and easy to be around. I don't want to have to lock them in another room when someone comes over, I don't want to have to muzzle them for vet care or shots or toe nail clipping.


Yep, that's what we all want. 



> If dogs were taught acceptable behaviour from a tiny puppy, to be held, touched, brushed, nails clipped, being handled by strangers, then there would be alot less dogs ending up in shelters.


I totally agree- I teach my dogs all those things. I don't necessarily agree with your methods for getting to that point, however, I prefer to teach them that handling and grooming are GOOD things, not simply something that must be endured. 



> I read about the different things, like this person asking to figure out how to make her pup not food aggressive or resourse guarding and it just seems like alot of the replies are to treat them with "kid gloves" and make YOUR daily life work around the dog instead of the other way around.


Who said to treat them with kid gloves? :thinking: I don't do that, nor do I make my daily life work around the dog (well, okay - we do like to have one weekend day revolve around taking the dogs out to an off leash park for fun. Our yard is so small, and it's fun for all of us, dogs AND humans, to go someplace and throw the ball for them and let them swim), but at home, I set the rules. I've been practicing NILIF for almost 10 years.

Good for you for noticing that this thread was started by someone with an 8 week old puppy who wants to know how to PREVENT resource guarding. The methods I use and advocate are _perfect_ preventative measures.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

wyominggrandma said:


> I thought I answered your question, but guess not.


No, this was the exact question I asked:



> Can you explain why you don't think it's a good idea to teach an 8 week old puppy to trust you not to take valued resources away?


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I did answer it, I said I teach my puppies to let me take things away by taking things away and returning it. The puppy learns its okay, because they TRUST me to give it back. Isn't that a good enough answer?

I totally agree- I teach my dogs all those things. I don't necessarily agree with your methods for getting to that point, however, I prefer to teach them that handling and grooming are GOOD things, not simply something that must be endured.
Would you care to show me WHERE I ever said I did not teach them that accepting lifes daily things were good that they had to ENDURE them"????? I don't believe I ever said anything of the kind. I have never raised a hand at my dogs. I have never forced them to do anything.... Where did you, oh great one, read that I said my dogs were forced to ENDURE things? Did I say" I force my dogs to do this and that? No, I said my dogs learn from day one to accept things, like the vets, nails, etc. because they trust me. Do you, the one who teaches and advocates the PERFECT methods, honestly think that a dog would go to the vets, grooming, etc be handled by strangers happily, etc do you honestly think a dog would tolerate this if they were not happy about it? That they didn't enjoy it? A dog that is forced to do things are the ones that are dragged into the vet clinic or groomers, that will snarl and growl at strangers that approach, that have to be muzzled for the vet, etc.They hit the end of the leash when a strange thing happens.
You have some gall to say that I force my dogs to deal with daily life. My dogs have always been treated with love and kindness and enjoy going places and doing things. 
But then again, you are PERFECT in your training.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

wyominggrandma said:


> I did answer it, I said I teach my puppies to let me take things away by taking things away and returning it. The puppy learns its okay, because they TRUST me to give it back. Isn't that a good enough answer?
> 
> I totally agree- I teach my dogs all those things. I don't necessarily agree with your methods for getting to that point, however, I prefer to teach them that handling and grooming are GOOD things, not simply something that must be endured.
> Would you care to show me WHERE I ever said I did not teach them that accepting lifes daily things were good that they had to ENDURE them"????? I don't believe I ever said anything of the kind. I have never raised a hand at my dogs. I have never forced them to do anything.... Where did you, oh great one, read that I said my dogs were forced to ENDURE things? Did I say" I force my dogs to do this and that? No, I said my dogs learn from day one to accept things, like the vets, nails, etc. because they trust me. Do you, the one who teaches and advocates the PERFECT methods, honestly think that a dog would go to the vets, grooming, etc be handled by strangers happily, etc do you honestly think a dog would tolerate this if they were not happy about it? That they didn't enjoy it? A dog that is forced to do things are the ones that are dragged into the vet clinic or groomers, that will snarl and growl at strangers that approach, that have to be muzzled for the vet, etc.They hit the end of the leash when a strange thing happens.
> ...


What you are saying is exactly what we're all understanding. You don't TRAIN your dogs to accept food being taken away, you MAKE them accept it by FORCING it on them. You just take it away and give it back and mess with them, making them have to endure it, but not neccesarily understand or enjoy it. My dog LOVES items being taken from him by other dogs or myself, because as a puppy I taught him that if he gets something taken away, he INSTANTLY gets something SO much better. He will let any breed/age/size/gender dog take ANYTHING from him happily, and any person (stranger or not) can take food or treats right out of his mouth without qualm, and he'll look to me happily for a treat and praise, which he gets.

I just don't understand why you have such a problem with our method when it is by far safer and better to use in building trust with your puppy/dog rather than just taking their food away and expecting them to deal.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

But what about those things you take away from them and do NOT give back?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Train/Force - what difference does it make what we call it? My dog has to do what I tell it to (after I show it what I want, of course, and when).

I take things away from him all the time (without "trading" and I even tell him what I want him to do or not do.

He is a dog!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> But what about those things you take away from them and do NOT give back?


If a dog is chewing on a valuable or even not so valuable household item that I do not want chewed up then I take it and I don't trade for it or give anything back. People hold grudges not dogs. Most interactions with the dogs I have owned are ninety per cent positive so when did it become fashionable to negotiate, and trade with your dog. 
I do trade with my dog in play but if he has something I don't want him to have I take it. I don't run around looking for some high value thing to appease his hurt feelings. By the time I found what might be considered a high value trade he will be off doing something else. Dogs don't analyze justice and fairness the way people do.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Hunter Jack said:


> If a dog is chewing on a valuable or even not so valuable household item that I do not want chewed up then I take it and I don't trade for it or give anything back. People hold grudges not dogs. Most interactions with the dogs I have owned are ninety per cent positive so when did it become fashionable to negotiate, and trade with your dog.
> I do trade with my dog in play but if he has something I don't want him to have I take it. I don't run around looking for some high value thing to appease his hurt feelings. By the time I found what might be considered a high value trade he will be off doing something else. Dogs don't analyze justice and fairness the way people do.


Very true! I also never negotiated with my 2 yo son. (I do now at his current age as an adult)


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

well obviously Djetzel figures we are all stupid and dumb because we don't negotiated with our dogs. Hope she doesn't have kids, can imagine her going to school and telling the teachers that " if you take something away from johnny because he is not supposed to have it, or because play time is over and its time to study, you HAVE to give him something back or he will be mad...
Get over it DJetzel, you train your way. WHY can't you understand my way of training MY DOGS works just fine for me. Do you honestly think you are SO MUCH BETTER trainer than the rest of us? WHAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IS MY DOGS HAPPILY GIVE UP ANYTHING ANYTIME AND ANYONE CAN DO IT WITHOUT ISSUE.... SO MY WAY WORKS FOR ME. JUST LIKE YOUR DOGS DO. NOT FORCED, NOT BEATEN, NOT HIT, NOT ANYTHING, YOU CAN REACH DOWN, TAKE IT AWAY AND THAT IS THAT. THEY HAPPILY COME WAGGING THEIR TAILS AFTERWARDS AND GET HUGS AND PRAISE.
WHEN YOU ARE ON TV SHOWING HOW GOOD A TRAINER YOU ARE, HOW PERFECT YOUR DOGS ARE, THEN AND ONLY THEN WILL I ACCEPT THAT YOUR TRAINING METHOD IS THE ONLY WAY THAT WORKS.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Alright, DJEtzel and Wyominggrandma, that's enough of the bickering. No more on this thread or you both will receive an official warning.

Jamie
Moderator


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Hunter Jack said:


> If a dog is chewing on a valuable or even not so valuable household item that I do not want chewed up then I take it and I don't trade for it or give anything back.


Same here. This thread is about an 8 week old puppy and how the OP can prevent food aggression or resource guarding, not how we deal with dogs well past the point of puppyhood. If they get something they're not supposed to have, I take it away. Period. And because of the foundation training I've done with them from a young age, they'll usually bring it to me, so I don't even have to go get it from them. I'm still honestly baffled why anyone would think this is a bad thing. :thinking: In fact, in the link I posted earlier there's a video of a game that Halo initiated, where she brings me her bone to hold while she chews it, and I take it away and give it back to her a few times. She started this all on her own, for some reason she finds it amusing. 



> Most interactions with the dogs I have owned are ninety per cent positive so when did it become fashionable to negotiate, and trade with your dog.


There seems to be a big misunderstanding going on here. Nobody is suggesting negotiating with your dog. I do trading _games_ with my puppies when they're young so that later I don't need to. There are a lot of things I do with puppies that I don't do with my adult dogs, _because I don't need to_. Because of the kind of training I do when they're young.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom.

You tend to latch on to words sometimes. Where I said dog you could insert puppy and I still feel the same way. If a *puppy* is chewing up something they shouldn't then I will take it away from the puppy and feel no obligation to trade. I will mess with a puppy's food if I feel that I need to.
I think one of the reasons there are misunderstandings is because people find what works or they think is the best method of training and the imply at times that if someone else is doing it differently there is something wrong with them. It is not usually said directly but implied.
The dog I have now was clicker trained for the most part and it worked better and faster than the old way. As with everything though just because there are new things or ways of doing things doesn't mean that it is always better. The internet is an amazing technology that can be used for good. It also allows children to view what I consider to be way over the top inappropriate material. Same thing with social networking. Some of it is good and some well!!!
While i was raising dogs for about six decades we did not have a zillion training methods and most people didn't have the time or money to spend on trainers so we did the best we could. I'm sure lots of mistakes were made but overall I think dogs and kids were better behaved. I'm off topic but it seems to me that a lot of people are afraid they might hurt their dogs feelings by having them behave.
I'm sure that what you do with your puppies and dogs works for you. I just don't want to be discounted for doing what I do.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Hunter Jack said:


> Most interactions with the dogs I have owned are ninety per cent positive so when did it become fashionable to negotiate, and trade with your dog.


The 'trading' part is only during the learning process. I teach my dogs that when they give something up they get something (of equal or greater value) in return.

And it's not always food. It could be a toy or just words of praise.



> I do trade with my dog in play but if he has something I don't want him to have I take it. I don't run around looking for some high value thing to appease his hurt feelings.


I don't either because my dogs LEARNED that they get something in return.

Dogs don't do what we say just because it "pleases us". Dogs do what they do because there is something in it FOR THEM. It could be a treat, a game, a toy or just a pat on the head and loving words of praise.

I don't want my dogs to 'see' our relationship as a dictatorship - I say and you do OR ELSE.

I want my dogs to believe that it's in THEIR best interest to do what I ask (and not because of fear).

For example, my boy Mauser as an AWESOME Platz. He throws himself to the ground as soon as he hears the PL in Platz. He doesn't do it because he's afraid of the consequences, he does it with that much speed because he CRAVES the consequences - I'm going to throw his toy. Or give him a cookie. Or feed him his food. Or I'm going to release him and then dance around like fool saying what a good boy he is (he LOVES to get goofy with me).

I had dogs that did what I said just because I said so (trained with compulsion) and it still bothers me to this day. I see the enthusiasm that Mauser and my Cresteds have when they obey commands (learned with positive, proofed with a mix) and I can only think how much better my relationship COULD have been with my previous dogs if I had only known then what I know now.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I truly wonder how much happier Daddy (Milan's big pit bull) could have been if only Cesar had treated him with more respect, and less compulsion and punishment.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Well I'm not opposed to learning new things but the implication that all my previous dogs lived in fear is just not accurate. Then there are the words like compulsion and dictatorship. Forget dogs for a second. If I tell my children that they have to go to school or they can not go somewhere I feel is dangerous. Then I guess I am compelling them to go to school and I'm dictating that they cannot go somewhere.
I wouldn't use those words for what I do. IMO I'm teaching, leading my dogs or children to the behaviour I want.
As I said you and others feel that your approach is better and I have no problem with that, I could probably learn something. It's hard though for me to listen when it feels like I and others are treated like some abusive little dictators who just run around barking out orders and compelling our dogs to do horrible things like don't jump on people, or get off the couch, or go out, come in.etc...
My past dogs and my 4 kids all turned out to be pretty happy and well adjusted in spite of me. I guess it's true ignorance is bliss. Worked for me.


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## Jahjehwa (May 22, 2011)

*Food*

I think your dog should learn from a young age that its your food and your allowing him to have some. I'm not saying take it away from your dog while eating but if you want to have some of his food he should allow it no problem, including chew toys, bones etc. This is so important when you have children. We grew up with Dobermans and none of them ever became food aggressive. With our Shepherd puppy, he know that our 8 month old is allowed to mess with him at all times and he accepts it just fine. Just be friendly about it let him know its okay if you take some food or mess with him. He loves you and will be willing to share since your the master anyway.


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## Jahjehwa (May 22, 2011)

*Update*

By the way, why would you trade your dog in order to take an item he more than likely knows isn't his. Seems like your teaching to do it more often to get better items. Hunter Jack does things just fine, he has kids and dogs. If you don't have children and you want to treat your dogs like people fine, but for the real world, they are pets, we love them but they are not equals.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I'm sure plenty of other people have given great advice already -- so this may be repeating what others have already said:

Messing with a dog while he is eating is a risky thing to do; right now your puppy is pretty tolerant of you, but what you're teaching him is eating is a stressful thing and people are out to annoy and bother him when he gets food. When he grows up, he may not be so tolerant. 

Instead of forcing yourself upon him in an attempt to prevent him from acting aggressively; give him a reason to think of you (or others who come near him when he has food) as the best thing ever!

Have super tasty treats, when he's eating, toss them near him (in the bowl if you can, it not, near the bowl is fine). After many repetitions, when you approach he should show signs of eager anticipation of something good! When that happens, pick up his bowl, and return it to him with tasty treats inside! 

Doing it this way is teaching him people are wonderful! 

Doing it the way you have been is teaching him people are super obnoxious!

Think about it... would you appreciate someone shoving their hands in your food, hugging on you, messing with your head while you're eating? At some point you're going to reach your limit of what you can take! He's already showing you his tolerance is wearing thin!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> Think about it... would you appreciate someone shoving their hands in your food, hugging on you, messing with your head while you're eating? At some point you're going to reach your limit of what you can take! He's already showing you his tolerance is wearing thin!


Of course not because I am a human. As such I also would not like having to go outside to pee and poop every time I needed to go. Nor would I like spending hours in a crate or doing tricks for food or going for a walk when I may not feel like it. I wouldn't like a chain or a collar around my neck or having flea and tick products that poison my system placed on my back every 30 days and on and on and on. I would not like these things because I am a human. Dogs are dogs but it seems less and less thaa people seem to realize that.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Jahjehwa said:


> By the way, why would you trade your dog in order to take an item he more than likely knows isn't his.


How do you know when your dog "more than likely knows" something isn't his? Do you teach him which things are his and which are not, and at what point are you completely sure that he understands the difference?

Also, you're making an assumption that people would offer a trade for something that the dog KNOWS they're not supposed to have, and then arguing against that practice. But who has said that they do that? 

Who is treating their dog like it's a child? Who is saying their dog is equal to a human? Again, there are all these assumptions being made and allegations being thrown around that are simply not true. Why do people insist on arguing against points that nobody is making? It's just silly, and a waste of time and effort.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> How do you know when your dog "more than likely knows" something isn't his? Do you teach him which things are his and which are not, and at what point are you completely sure that he understands the difference?
> 
> Also, you're making an assumption that people would offer a trade for something that the dog KNOWS they're not supposed to have, and then arguing against that practice. But who has said that they do that?
> 
> Who is treating their dog like it's a child? Who is saying their dog is equal to a human? Again, there are all these assumptions being made and allegations being thrown around that are simply not true. Why do people insist on arguing against points that nobody is making? It's just silly, and a waste of time and effort.


Thanks for straightening out all of us who are making assumptions and allegations that are untrue. We can't help ourselves for just arguing and making up stuff. What a waste of time.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I think it is time to put my dog in a "Time out" so he can think about WHY he growled at me for taking his food dish, and then he can resolve never to do such a thing again! Heh! Heh!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> .......Messing with a dog while he is eating is a risky thing to do; right now your puppy is pretty tolerant of you, but what you're teaching him is eating is a stressful thing and people are out to annoy and bother him when he gets food. When he grows up, he may not be so tolerant.
> 
> *Are you serious! Not teaching to tolerate someone "messing" with his food or his bone or his toy is risking someones future safety. Remember the old adage "Don't go near the dog, he is eating!". RIDICULOUS! Simply teach your dog to tolerate this and you won't have a serious incident if the neighbor (or your own!) little toddler happens to end up near him while he is eating or chewing.*
> 
> ...


Actually I would, and have tolerated this very messing with my food when we used to have a toddler in the house! *Just like our dogs all did as well!*

We have pics from long ago with our 2 yo sitting with his legs wrapped around the dog food bowl and feeding our close to 100 lb male GSD one kibble at a time. And him taking it out of tiny fingers as gently as you can imagine.

When are you and others going to realize that a dog is a dog - low man on the samily totem pole!


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Some dogs are more prone to food aggression than others.

I am not sure why in our culture we speak so much of dominance? My dogs mind me very well. I do nothing to dominate them.
If we are to dominate them, what actions should we take?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

The vast majority of dogs are NOT dominant - they are just members of the pack just like wild packs, and most members do not even try to become pack leader.

For example, how many huskies do you think are suitable to be a team lead dog? My guess would be VERY few. 

Or people, why do some folks become great leaders and the vast number of people will not even aspire to become one?

Same with dogs!

Perhaps you have had these type of dogs and not a dominant aggressive one, or one trying to become so.

They are a very different type of personality as anyone who has had one can say.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think most people who think they have a dominant dog do not. 

I have a pack of dogs and have fostered many others and once I figure things out, they are no longer "dominant" which kind of makes me think...it's not them, it's me.  With all of these dogs, including ones who had literally been starving: 

Female GSD, 37#, now 65#


















BC/Chow (and whatever) mix 31# (up from 20#) now 45#









I have left them alone, have never messed in a food bowl, and can reliably take anything out of their mouths at any time. 

But most importantly, I want to impress upon people that the idea of food aggression and having a dog who is good about it, using the methods that Lauri and others have talked about, is huge. 

IF heaven forbid, your dog got loose, got taken to a shelter and was evaled, and failed the food test, your dog could be PTS while you are out there looking for them. They generally are not considered adoptable. The food test is not a great test either, because many places use a big rubber hand which would freak most people out, never mind dogs. They will sometimes just stick it in through the bars of the cage:










However, some rescues will take dogs who fail the test because - get this - by doing the trading, hand feeding, and leaving them the heck alone for a while - you can fix the food aggression. And by leaving them alone, and doing the trading, you can prevent it too, with results that will hold up. 

Maddie's Fund - Taking a Bite Out of Food Bowl Aggression


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I personally have had dogs, and do, that many of my friends and even family do not want to handle due to their dominance and potential aggression. It is not that they are unstable, but strong enough that someone they do not have a respectful relationship with is not going to get far with them. 

I do have a few ASL dogs that anyone can do. My rescue girl is sweety pie.

I have the least success with the strong dogs by taking a stance of dominance. Dogs with high fight drive just might be itching for one.

Because the word dominance is so misunderstood and the human behaviors thst often go with asserting it are sometimes iffy, it seems a possibly problematic word.

Jean, your experience with the variety of rescues is interesting.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I have five dogs living in my house; every single one of them knows the rules of the house and I trust them 100% 

I do not have to use intimidation tactics to get them to behave, nor were they trained with such methods.

This has gone away from a post about food aggression and become one about training methods. If some of you wish to use fear/force/and intimidation to train -- so be it. However, it's not the only method out there and for some dogs (and those owners who know how to train using P+ methods) forceful training is not the solution.

If you think about it, many dogs with behavioral problems are not being physically exercised enough or mentally stimulated enough. So regardless of your training beliefs, any one not supplying such to their dog should probably start by fulling those two things to help with whatever issues they are facing.

If you choose to disagree with a method of training used to prevent or fix food aggression in dogs, so be it, but you don't have to rail on it as an inadequate means to handle the problem because it has been proven to work in many cases.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

e.rigby said:


> .............
> I do not have to use intimidation tactics to get them to behave, nor were they trained with such methods.
> 
> This has gone away from a post about food aggression and become one about training methods. If some of you wish to use fear/force/and intimidation to train -- so be it. However, it's not the only method out there and *for some dogs* (and those owners who know how to train using P+ methods) *forceful training is not the solution*.
> ...


Congratulations!
That is great that you can train your dogs to obey your every command to nearly 100% reliability under any distraction. Most of us (me anyway at least) could not do that nor would I probably live long enough to see him change his behavior to be in your dog's class.

You use a lot of very tough emotional words in your post - 
*"fear/force/and intimidation" and "intimidation tactics".* Do you equate any correction to your dog with these very accusatory words?

I hope that my dog doesn't read your post - he may get to feeling all intimidated and start fearing me so much he may even stop taking the treats that I force on him daily!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

E.rigby

To steal a line from cassidy's mom. 

Who said to use intimidation tactics? Who said to use fear? Who said to use force?
Who said to use forceful training?


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## Lakl (Jul 23, 2011)

I'd like to throw my .02 in here as I'm sure the OP is THOROUGHLY confused now. I believe it was in this very forum that someone once told me that the only thing 2 trainers will agree on is that the other one is wrong.

With that said, I'm not a trainer, behavorist, AND a novice on my second GSD, BUT... When I was dealing with my first GSD's fear reactivity as a first time owner, I was just as confused on how to handle it as the OP. I went through multiple trainers, classes, and a behaviorist all with a different method for solving my dogs problems and all siding with either one or the other methods - positive reinforcement or corrective/dominance type training.

As I went through all these methods, trainers, trials, and tribulations with my pup, I picked up a few things or methods from each person along the way because not ONE of them were able to cure my pup, though most guaranteed they could. What I ended up with was my own method for what worked for MY pup which was a mixture of correction and positive training. She would react, I would correct, then click and praise for the appropriate behavior. It was the only thing that ever worked. Did it cure her reactivity? Nope, but it 
taught her what I expected and was asking of her. She quickly learned that she was being given a choice between getting a correction or lots of praise. She enjoys the praise and has learned to control her reactivity to get what she wants. But praise and treats alone were simply not enough to get her to the point of understanding when she was too riled up to even remember I was on the other end of the leash! I know it's not the same situation as food aggression, but some should get where I'm coming from.

So if the OP is still out there somewhere keeping up with this thread - my advice here is that no one knows your dog like you do, and as he/she grows, you will come to recognize his/her behaviors and you will both learn what to expect from each other. At 8 wks, you really have no idea what you have yet, but you WILL, and you also will come to understand what works for your pup and what doesn't. It's all trial and error and everyone has great advice. You just have to figure out which ones work the best for you and your dog. Good Luck!


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Very nice post. 
There are lots of different ways and so many variables that no *one* way is the only way. In the famous words of Rodney King, "can't we all just get along".


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