# Drives vs. Aggression??



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

I was hoping I could more info and help with dog reactivity--mainly barking and lunging. My 10.5 male dog reactivity has gotten worse in the last few months. He corrects well with a prong collar.

I am looking at Lou Castle's website and he advises teaching the recall and the sit which I am going to do. I want to do agility so I need it resolved off leash.

My nose work instructor said he is a good dog. She said: I would guess a lot of that reactive over threshold activity is the drive bred into him looking for expression, not aggression. 

And know there are members who really get what she is saying and could perhaps explain that to me? I have increased obedience training.

Thanks so much in advance!


----------



## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Regardless of how you use the word "aggression", be it a "bad" defensive fear response or a "good" strong confident offensive response, either way it IS a drive so I'm unsure what was meant by the above (I could guess...)


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

hunterisgreat said:


> Regardless of how you use the word "aggression", be it a "bad" defensive fear response or a "good" strong confident offensive response, either way it IS a drive so I'm unsure what was meant by the above (I could guess...)


My sense is it is fear aggression. This is my first GSD. Is it weak nerves, low threshold? Can it be affected by adolescence? I can correct it with a prong collar, but is it something the dog will always be prone to?


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

You can’t “correct” aggression with a prong collar. What you need to do is train your dog in obedience FIRST, then use the obedience to tell your dog what you want him to do in situations where he shows this behavior. Ideally, the dog is well trained FIRST, then you move on to using the situations where the you see aggressive behavior as “distractions”. Meaning, for example, you tell your dog to sit. If he breaks out of the sit, he is corrected for not sitting, not for being aggressive...and there is a difference. 
Also, your behavior matters, it is simply huge when it comes to handling GSDs and other aggressive breeds. If you are nervous or agitated yourself, that travels right down the leash to your dog and the dog starts looking for the source of your anxiety. The people then allow the dog to decide what the best course of action is and most of the time, that action is not acceptable. Correcting the dog in the midst of his aggressive behavior is nowhere near as effective as not allowing it to start in the first place. Many times, the corrections are not effective enough to shut down the behavior and simply feed the aggression. Again, you matter. Most people cannot simply be told to relax, they need a coach to help them do that while handling their dog and it needs to be a coach with experience. 

Also, after the obedience training is done, the “distractions” whether they be dogs or people, should be introduced at a distance. It is a mistake to try to submerge the dog in stress and ask him to behave. It takes time, patience and above all, control of your own emotions. You gradually close the distance over time and always do this when you have control of the environment. Not in places where the people will not listen to you or the dogs are running loose etc. Eventually, the dog learns when he sits quietly, nothing bad happens to you or to him. He will not feel the need to respond with aggressive behavior to “chase off” what he is disturbed by. Of course, the dog’s temperament will determine just how far things can improve but so does yours. Again, meaning you have to be calm and in control of the situation so your dog feels safe.
As the dog gets better in obedience, you should be able to transition to off leash but again, it takes time and some skill. Biggest mistakes people make is testing more than training and placing their dog in situations they are not ready to handle. Yes, young dogs are many times more insecure and it is your job to help them understand how to behave and that doing that will keep you and him safe. Obedience, when used correctly, can definitely increase confidence but all of the above matters.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

:thumbup: Anne.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Anne--I appreciate your words. Thank you.

We are signed up for a Reactive Rover class in January. Simon is already used to wearing a head halter. I've quit taking him off property for now until I get a "game plan" from the behaviorist on how to proceed--I don't want to make things worse. My obedience facility is letting me audit for free so that I can keep training him at home. 

He's still doing nose work. I corrected him once with a prong collar there this week and he was excellent the rest of the session--lots of click and treat for a quiet down while waiting. (We were, up to this point, keeping dogs in vehicles and bringing them in for their turn, but the space was enlarged so for the first time dogs waited in the building. I knew if he had a head collar on it was not going to work. I will see if the behaviorist wants me to give up nose work....)

I am a calm person in general. People at work comment on it and other dog people have said the same. But, that certainly doesn't mean I am handling things as well as I could. It would be interesting to see if he is reactive with a different handler. Maybe my leadership skills need work, too.

Over my upcoming two week vacation, I am going to work on getting a good solid recall with low stim Dogtra and Lou Castle directions. I have been watching a lot of you tube trainers to see things in action--how to tell when you reached the working level, etc.

I am in this for the long haul, but I am worried and a bit discouraged. A trainer (not where I go now) I went to had me correct him with a prong collar and obviously the fear aggression has gotten worse.

There are no perfect dogs and I am not a perfect handler. I need to remember it's the journey that counts--I love this dog so much and I want the best for him.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I don't know what a head collar is but it sounds like something I personally, would never use.... I am not saying you should not use a pinch. I am saying you do not correct aggression, you correct disobedience. I also don't have a clue what a "Reactive Rover" class is. Sounds like a gimmick. This is just part of dog training to me. Obedience solves many problems, as does a handler who is calm and clear with the dog and in charge of the situation, so the dog doesn't feel like he needs to be.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

A Reative Rover class is a counter conditioning class taught by a behaviorist. I will use a halti instead of a correction type collar for the class (required-no correction collar). The dogs in the class are all reactive.

I think your words are exactly correct in regard to the handler. I am gathering as many tools in my toolbox as possible. At the end of the day, it comes down to what combination of skills have I learned to best address this issue in my dog. Having more skills can build my confidence since that is part of the equation.

I teach in a school of 90% poverty and a rough population of students. My school is in a dangerous neighborhood. I have a strong personality and calmness--it's a job "requirement" and it's how I have not burned out. 

Hopefully, the behaviorist will be able to tell if I have leadership problems with my GSD.


----------



## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

I really dislike the halti especially on a dog that makes lunging movements, neck injuries and pressures on the vertibrae from these devices freak me out. I believe the original halti was designed for horses not dogs. I could be wrong but I would skip the "Reactive Rover" classes and head halti and find a reputable trainer to work on obedience.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Is the dog aggressive or reactive? Two different things. They can look the same if you don't know better. I wasn't sure about Midnite, so I started deducting things. The biggest push in the direction of reactivity was the fact that he reacted to Robyn while on leash and loved Robyn. Oddly enough that made me feel better and I was able to come up with a game plan. I was hesitant to put a prong on him at first. In fact I put it on and then backed off, then went back to it. Is your dog 10.5 months or years old?


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

And do you know anyone with a very stable dog that your dog can take a walk with or just pass by?


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> Is the dog aggressive or reactive? Two different things. They can look the same if you don't know better. I wasn't sure about Midnite, so I started deducting things. The biggest push in the direction of reactivity was the fact that he reacted to Robyn while on leash and loved Robyn. Oddly enough that made me feel better and I was able to come up with a game plan. I was hesitant to put a prong on him at first. In fact I put it on and then backed off, then went back to it. Is your dog 10.5 months or years old?


Simon is 10.5 months and I think he is dog reactive, not aggressive--but he lunges and barks that big GSD bark! Four months ago he played at my pet sitters with 6 dogs he had never met and my pet sitter raved about what a great dog he was--no aggressive body language, good boundaries, had lots of fun, didn't play too rough. Around that time I walked on a trail with dogs and he was great on a prong.

Then I signed up for group obedience with a behaviorist at where I go for nose work and put a gentle leader on him--prong was frowned upon. He was a complete idiot without the prong collar. When the dogs moved in a circle he went off. 

He now barks like crazy and wags his tail low when I take my two chihuahuas and min pin outside--he barks when they come in. He's loud, but I think it's excitement. That started about a month ago.

I have been walking him on a 35 foot lunge line attached to a harness in two different parks since he was 13 weeks old. Since I started the obedience class, he has gotten progressive more reactive--sounds horrible and lunging. I am calm with him but once he goes, he's gone. 

At this point, I am going to follow Lou Castle's protocols with recall and sit (and not tell the new behaviorist) And I am going to the new behaviorist who specializes in dog reactivity (Reactive Rover class) to learn what I can there. If need be,after that, I am going to a GSD training club and see if anyone can help there.

I have already been to a Schutzhund trainer (only goes private lessons) who had me correct with a prong for dog reactivity at 5.5 months. It was much better after that--until the obedience class with a gentle leader. I am doing obedience at least three times a day with him. Before I go to work, after work, and in the evening.

I will say there is a next door neighbor who has a dog aggressive dog (bully breed) who has done a lot of aggressive body language at my GSD. My back yard is cedar fencing and no problem, my front yard in chain link. I keep my boy out of the front yard. Simon will do fence aggression with this dog and I have completely eliminated his opportunities to do so.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

Saphire said:


> I really dislike the halti especially on a dog that makes lunging movements, neck injuries and pressures on the vertibrae from these devices freak me out. I believe the original halti was designed for horses not dogs. I could be wrong but I would skip the "Reactive Rover" classes and head halti and find a reputable trainer to work on obedience.


I hear that the prong collar can make the behavior worse....A harness or flat collar is out of the question as he is getting too strong for me with those. Leerburg says a dominate dog collar is better than a prong....dominate dog collar looks injurious too.

I agree that obedience is the answer. I have done lots and lots of engagement. I think llombardo is correct in that the dog cannot be allowed to focus anywhere but on the handler.

Counter conditioning is also talked about on the forum and that's what Reactive Rover classes entail.

At the end of the day, it will probably be a combination of things that are tailored for this particular dog.


----------



## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Moriah said:


> I hear that the prong collar can make the behavior worse....A harness or flat collar is out of the question as he is getting too strong for me with those. Leerburg says a dominate dog collar is better than a prong....dominate dog collar looks injurious too.
> 
> I agree that obedience is the answer. I have done lots and lots of engagement. I think llombardo is correct in that the dog cannot be allowed to focus anywhere but on the handler.
> 
> ...


I would use a prong, but make sure it fits right and is used correctly. Midnite self corrected himself with a prong. I don't think I had to ever give him a pop. I watched a woman with a huge Gsd try to use a gentle leader, it didn't work and made it worse. Most positive trainers will not allow them. I took what they taught me, added the prong and made it work. The prong with smaller links works better.


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

llombardo said:


> I would use a prong, but make sure it fits right and is used correctly. Midnite self corrected himself with a prong. I don't think I had to ever give him a pop. I watched a woman with a huge Gsd try to use a gentle leader, it didn't work and made it worse. Most positive trainers will not allow them. *I took what they taught me, added the prong and made it work. The prong with smaller links works better.*


Yes, I think you are right. I'll use the halti in class and then do the prong otherwise. I will get a good smaller link prong collar. Thank you for all your help on this--I can't tell you how appreciative I am

Thank you to everyone who offered help. There is no place like this forum for *real *help!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You should re-read Anne's post and take her advice.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The prong collar can make things worse depending on the dog. IF you have to use it because of his size then use the "dead" ring (hook the leash to both rings). I don't like Halti's so "I", personally, would use the pinch. I would NOT be using the smaller linked prong. 

Follow Anne's advice. You need to use obedience and be proactive and aware of what is going on around you to prevent the behavior before it happens. You also need to not put him into situations that are too much for him, that take him over threshold, until you have the obedience.


----------



## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Hey Moriah, one thing to keep in mind with this, you need to be consistent. The obedience Anne is talking about, isn't the same as what they'll have you doing in a class with held halters. What I worry about with those types of behaviorist/trainer type classes is kinda what you're already posting. A dependence on some certain collar and never really just teaching the dog to obey.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Last remark here....first, when you are in classes with other dogs almost always, the other dogs are simply too close and being handled by people who do not know what they are doing. That right there is the very first thing I tell people to avoid when people contact me with this problem...which is sadly, about 95% who call. 
Most, like you, have been to a class and that is where the problems started.

Huge numbers of people have been convinced by mass marketing that daycare and cage free kennels and dog parks are what every dog needs. They do all the wrong things, think their dogs needs to be touched by people or physically interact with other dogs to be socialized and in so doing, create all kinds of problems for themselves and their dogs. If we are talking about GSDs, this is particularly true. 

There are simply so many people representing themselves as trainers now and offering advice without knowing much about aggression, and the dogs are paying the price. 
There is absolutely a "first things first" approach needed to adjust the behavior that has been allowed. As I said earlier, obedience is first ....meaning, the dog listens to you, respects you and obeys. After that, these other things can be gradually introduced at a distance. 
As a general rule, people who understand how to bring aggression out in a dog also know how to control it. That is not an endorsement of everyone, you have to find the right person, someone with experience who will not want to punish your dog for things that he has been accidentally taught. It takes time and patience and not placing the dog in situations that he is not prepared for.

I have to say this as well, every single person who has called themselves a "behaviorist" has been a disaster for my clients. Aggression or reactivity, doesn't matter and I do get tired of the terms that simply confuse people more than help. It is the same approach, obedience and a calm handler who is in charge of the situation. 

Also, since I work with lots of people, some who do similar jobs and declare themselves relaxed....I will simply say again....you need a coach. Someone who will point out the tension when you start to anticipate what your dog usually does and to help you communicate with your dog in that situation. It is a different situation entirely when you are handling a dog vs being calm at work. I help many people who come from similar types of work environments, they still needed help handling their dog. 

Hopefully, your "reactive rover" person really knows what they are doing. Good luck.


----------



## osito23 (Feb 17, 2014)

Anne, 

I just wanted to say that I have learned a lot from reading your posts. There has been a huge learning curve for me coming from labs, goldens, and australian shepherds to getting my first GSD. Hands down the most important thing I did was find a trainer that understands GSDs and is patient enough to work with newbie me. Thank you for posting!


----------



## Moriah (May 20, 2014)

*Update*

Took Simon to GSD breeder/ AKC obedience judge during an open obedience practice session at her place.

Outcome:

Good temperament; can handle e-collar training, take him to herding instruction at Ewetopia to channel his drives as he is Kirschental lines, still very much a puppy (10.5 months);don't use prong collar; use choke chain; bring him back to open obedience session ($5) once a week to lay down and chill out watching other dogs work.

She did have one of her bitches brought out to have Simon sniff her tail end. He was very appropriate (and smitten with her).

She said her place was a great place to really correct him, whereas, out in public, people want to call animal control on you.

I am planning to go to the behaviorist class on Reactive Rover in January that I have already paid for to learn more info, but won't bring Simon as I won't put a halti on him. Could learn some good tips at the class to add to my tool box.

So appreciative of all the help here on the forum


----------

