# Inbreeding Question



## Tulip

Please no bashing or ranting. I am just asking for opinions, facts, and sources. I did not breed this litter myself. I do not own either of these dogs. 

If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!

I can tell you that the father is OFA Fair on hips and Passing on elbows, and that both of his parents are OFA Excellent on hips and Passing on elbows. Only health problems that the site has ever had were UTIs. I do not know if the dam has been tested. I will try to get more info on her and her parents though.

Sire:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2199933-kodiak-vom-steppenwolf-bach

Dam's Mother:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2097794-berenike-zelgastar

Dam's Father:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1875194-yago-von-felsschlucht-bach


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## Jax08

depends. what's the rest of the pedigree and why are they line breeding so closely?


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## Tulip

Jax08 said:


> depends. what's the rest of the pedigree and why are they line breeding so closely?


It was accidental breeding. I am in the process of posting all of the pedigrees I have. I have everyone's I believe except for the Dam's.

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## Jax08

here is your mating outcome. (regardless of whether this is the right female, it's the same breeding) 

The sire's father is the dam's grandfather.

Litter from Kodiak Vom Steppenwolf Bach and Cora Pearl Vom Steppenwolf Bach

Now...would I get a puppy from a breeding similar to this? Yes. *IF *there was a reason behind the breeding. I know of a litter with this exact same circumstance that was bred to bring certain traits from a specific line back in.


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## Tulip

Jax08 said:


> here is your mating outcome. (regardless of whether this is the right female, it's the same breeding)
> 
> The sire's father is the dam's grandfather.
> 
> Litter from Kodiak Vom Steppenwolf Bach and Cora Pearl Vom Steppenwolf Bach
> 
> Now...would I get a puppy from a breeding similar to this? Yes. *IF *there was a reason behind the breeding. I know of a litter with this exact same circumstance that was bred to bring certain traits from a specific line back in.


Thank you for the response! The dam's name is Kilo, but I dont know her full AKC name and it didnt look like her parents had made a profile for her on pedigree database unfortunately. 

Also, I found out that Kilo has not been health tested at all, but her father, Yago, is DM clear and OFA passing on hips and elbows. Kodiak has not been tested for DM, but both of his parents are DM clear.
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## Tulip

I do not own either dog.

I fell on really hard times a while back and had to find Kody a new home because he was very sick and I couldn't afford to take him to the vet. The people who own Kilo took him in. Now I am in a much better place with a large emergency fund saved up, and since Kody accidentally impregnated Kilo, they are offering me a free puppy.


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## Aly

Tulip said:


> If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!


Disclaimer: I'm not a breeder, I've never bred a litter, nor do I personally compete my dogs in conformation or sport. That said, as much of a sucker as I am for a cute puppy, I, personally would pass. It's good that you have certain test results, but without additional background information there are too many unknowns in the scenario described for my comfort level. I understand the appeal of a free puppy but, over the years, I've found that the purchase price is often the least costly expenditure that you could encounter if your luck turns south. 

Many of those unknowns might be discoverable with due diligence on your part by simply talking to the breeder (e.g., temperament characteristics in previous generations, trainability in previous generations, health issues in previous generations, etc). Other unknowns may not be so easily discovered. Too often it depends on the breeder's openness/honesty about what's behind her/his lines and how well s/he's kept track of previous litters. Some breeders are superb about this, others not so much. 

IMO, the real risk in the scenario you've described is the degree of inbreeding that this puppy represents. Yes, inbreeding can 'fix' the characteristics that the breeder is trying to enhance/strengthen. But it also can 'fix' characteristics that the breeder may be unaware of or would have preferred to avoid. Further, those undesirable characteristics may be highly heritable although virtually undocumented as such because genetic testing isn't available or, if available, is prohibitively expensive. IMO, the real risk of inbreeding is that you don't know what you don't know; the results can easily become an exemplar of the _Law of Unintended Consequences._ Mind you, breeders run the same risks even with outcrosses. With line and inbreeding, however, those risks increase substantially because the available gene pool, so to say, has shrunk significantly over successive generations. 

I've pulled a couple of (not too jargony) articles that might help in your decision-making. Or not... 

https://breedingbusiness.com/consequences-of-dog-inbreeding/ 

https://embarkvet.com/oedipus-rex-inbreeding-its-consequences-and-its-quantification/

https://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf


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## Steve Strom

I'd maybe give the much better place some time to make sure its not temporary. If you did decide to accept a puppy, I'd look at it more like a rescue and not really care about lines, pedigree, etc...


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## Jax08

The sire used to be your dog? then you are fully aware of temperament and health issues and you have a good knowledge of these lines??

I agree with Steve 100%


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## Tulip

I'm not really planning on breeding this new puppy unless she just unexpectedly turns out to be exceptional in terms of temperament, working ability, and heath, and while I would like to compete her in Schutzhund, I'm not going to get my hopes up with her being some world champion or anything. The only thing I'm really worried about is getting a puppy that turns out wonky with devastating health issues. As long as they turn out good looking and with reasonably decent health, I'm happy with a free puppy.

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## Tulip

Thank you so much for the sources! I am reading through them now 


Aly said:


> Disclaimer: I'm not a breeder, I've never bred a litter, nor do I personally compete my dogs in conformation or sport. That said, as much of a sucker as I am for a cute puppy, I, personally would pass. It's good that you have certain test results, but without additional background information there are too many unknowns in the scenario described for my comfort level. I understand the appeal of a free puppy but, over the years, I've found that the purchase price is often the least costly expenditure that you could encounter if your luck turns south.
> 
> Many of those unknowns might be discoverable with due diligence on your part by simply talking to the breeder (e.g., temperament characteristics in previous generations, trainability in previous generations, health issues in previous generations, etc). Other unknowns may not be so easily discovered. Too often it depends on the breeder's openness/honesty about what's behind her/his lines and how well s/he's kept track of previous litters. Some breeders are superb about this, others not so much.
> 
> IMO, the real risk in the scenario you've described is the degree of inbreeding that this puppy represents. Yes, inbreeding can 'fix' the characteristics that the breeder is trying to enhance/strengthen. But it also can 'fix' characteristics that the breeder may be unaware of or would have preferred to avoid. Further, those undesirable characteristics may be highly heritable although virtually undocumented as such because genetic testing isn't available or, if available, is prohibitively expensive. IMO, the real risk of inbreeding is that you don't know what you don't know; the results can easily become an exemplar of the _Law of Unintended Consequences._ Mind you, breeders run the same risks even with outcrosses. With line and inbreeding, however, those risks increase substantially because the available gene pool, so to say, has shrunk significantly over successive generations.
> 
> I've pulled a couple of (not too jargony) articles that might help in your decision-making. Or not...
> 
> https://breedingbusiness.com/consequences-of-dog-inbreeding/
> 
> https://embarkvet.com/oedipus-rex-inbreeding-its-consequences-and-its-quantification/
> 
> https://www.hsvma.org/assets/pdfs/guide-to-congenital-and-heritable-disorders.pdf


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## GypsyGhost

You mentioned you rehomed the sire of this litter due to health issues... I don’t want to pry, but are those issues completely resolved? Is there any chance that the health issues were genetic? I’d be concerned about having a sick puppy, depending on the answer to those questions.


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## Tulip

GypsyGhost said:


> You mentioned you rehomed the sire of this litter due to health issues... I don’t want to pry, but are those issues completely resolved? Is there any chance that the health issues were genetic? I’d be concerned about having a sick puppy, depending on the answer to those questions.


Yes, the health issues were recurring UTIs that I just couldn't afford to continue to treat.

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## Jax08

What caused the recurring UTI? Was it a physical abnormality?


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## Tulip

Jax08 said:


> What caused the recurring UTI? Was it a physical abnormality?


Not that I know of. He never had any problems until he was 6 years old.

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## Jax08

He just turned 6 this past summer? so you just recently rehomed him within the last 6 months? If that's true, then I think you need to wait to really make sure you are financially stable.


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## Aly

Tulip said:


> I do not own either dog.
> 
> I fell on really hard times a while back and had to find Kody a new home because he was very sick and I couldn't afford to take him to the vet. The people who own Kilo took him in. Now I am in a much better place with a large emergency fund saved up, and since Kody accidentally impregnated Kilo, they are offering me a free puppy.


Somehow I missed this before. Congratulations on getting yourself to a better place such that you can consider a new puppy. That's an achievement; creating an emergency fund while you did so was a very smart move. 

Steve makes a very good point about considering this puppy as a 'rescue.' As someone who happily lives with a GSD obtained from the local shelter, I've largely adopted that approach myself. But, I've done so fully mindful that there may be heritable issues that I'll never know about until they pop up --- if they ever do. 

The reality is that many of those same things might pop up with a well bred puppy produced by an experienced breeder (BTDT). Stuff happens. The other reality, however, is that the lack of any background info for my girl still bothers me. Even at this point, you have more information (or access thereto) than I do. I'd exploit that opportunity and find out as much as I possibly could as part of my decision-making. 

Good luck, whatever you decide. Puppies are hard to resist.


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## mnm

Tulip said:


> I'm not really planning on breeding this new puppy unless she just unexpectedly turns out to be exceptional in terms of temperament, working ability, and heath, and while I would like to compete her in Schutzhund, I'm not going to get my hopes up with her being some world champion or anything. The only thing I'm really worried about is getting a puppy that turns out wonky with devastating health issues. As long as they turn out good looking and with reasonably decent health, I'm happy with a free puppy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Let me understand this... You previously owned the male, who had some health issues which you had some issues with affording treatments and you placed or gave him to someone, who then allowed an accidental breeding with closely related female. Now that you are in a better financial situation, they are offering you a female puppy for free. It is a 2-3 breeding which is no longer allowed by the SV, from non health tested parents, without titles, and you already might possibly consider breeding the female pup down the road, if she turns out nice???

While I understand that accidental breeding's can happen, with the closeness in relationship, there really should have been more responsibility in managing the two dogs. The problem with close breeding's is that your risk of severe issues showing up, increase drastically. If you do decide to take a pup, never ever consider breeding it, and have it altered. Make the best of the situation by training and working with the pup, but know that you are taking the pup just to give it a good home, as a pet/rescue, and a learning experierence. Lots to think about and consider. I certainly wouldn't take a pup from this accidental breeding, especially if you want to compete in Schutzhund. Good Luck.


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## Tulip

If she shouldnt be bred, that's fine, but I definitely don't plan on spaying her. I've read way too much on the health issues associated with it. I would never allow an unplanned breeding though. Now that I live in a condo and no longer have a backyard, I have no risk of my dogs (I have a female yorkie) escaping anymore, so I really wont have to worry about an unplanned litter.

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## selzer

I don't know why the sire's best photo has him in a diaper. That suggests health issues. Also, I wouldn't buy or even take for free a pup from a breeder who has an oops. I don't believe in oopses and find they represent a higher level of irresponsibility than any intentional breeding. 


Like me, I have a bitch, awesome dam, who has had 5 litters for me. She will be 9 in March. To breed her at this point, her last litter is about 10 months old, well I personally think she is too old to be bred again, even though she is healthy and looks good. Now, I think folks that would get a puppy from me, might frown on me breeding her so late. But if I were to say, "Oh yeah, Kojak scaled the fence and was in with her..." then, everything would be ok, lots of laughs all around and my boy gets a pat on his back. 

No. The almighty oops litter is just too easy to claim and therefore get a pass for any time of shoddy breeding practices. 

Have a young bitch that is under a year, but you really, really want puppies, oops!

Have a dog and his half-sister that would make really cute puppies, oops!

Have a dog with no papers, but you just know its purebred, oops!

In with a group that really like to see titles, but you can't get a title on a dog for some reason, oops!

Have a bitch with hip dysplasia, or EPI, or MegE, conformation fault, etc., oops! 

Pet-people can maybe get away with the oopses because, they maybe are not as in to the politics, animal rights people wanting everything on four legs spayed or neutered, and to the lengths that some of those folks will go to see that happen, where in places it is, in fact, mandatory. How do people fight that when our attitude toward oops-breedings is "whoops, accidents happen." Breeders have intact dogs and bitches and they know how to keep them intact without oopses happening. They have to do that. I mean, how do you ensure that your bitch was only inseminated by a specific dog, if you can't keep dogs and bitches separate?


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## Jax08

I guess I"m a little lost on something. You just recently gave Kody up. Why don't you take him back if you are in a better financial state?


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## Tulip

These people are not breeders as far as I know. When did I ever mention that they were breeders? They are just pet owners who had a 2 yr old intact female and took on an intact male and had an accidental pregnancy. 

I gave them Kody and they want to keep him. It's as simple as that.

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## Sabis mom

Tulip said:


> These people are not breeders as far as I know. When did I ever mention that they were breeders? They are just pet owners who had a 2 yr old intact female and took on an intact male and had an accidental pregnancy.
> 
> I gave them Kody and they want to keep him. It's as simple as that.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I have a problem with all of this. You gave up a dog over a series of UTI's, they often reoccur. It's actually just about as likely as treatment working the first time since something caused it in the first place and it's seldom addressed the first time. This all seems weird but since you now want a puppy, get a puppy. Inbreeding may be the least of your worries. 
I also don't believe in oops litters. It is not that hard to keep an eye on your dogs. So I'm not buying it. And I don't think there is anything to be gained by avoiding the truth. They or you wanted puppies, now there are puppies. Seriously. I have had multiple intact dogs all my life, in small spaces, with limited resources. I managed to keep the furry demons from procreating. 
Yes breeding this close could bring up all sorts of issues. Temperament, congenital defects, or other assorted issues. You want an IPO dog then go buy one, you want a brood bitch then go buy one but don't put all that baggage on a pup that should not have been produced.


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## Tulip

Oh, wow, I didnt realize I was being accused here until now. This is why I stopped going on dog forums as much as possible. You can never just ask simple questions without being attacked. I dont know if they "wanted" an "oops" litter. Who knows. I dont know why they would lie about that to me though. Maybe they just dont know how to watch intact dogs, like most pet owners. Obviously not people who visit these forums, but the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs than trainers or really experienced dog owners who just love training, showing, breeding, or even just learning.

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## selzer

Tulip said:


> Oh, wow, I didnt realize I was being accused here until now. This is why I stopped going on dog forums as much as possible. You can never just ask simple questions without being attacked. I dont know if they "wanted" an "oops" litter. Who knows. I dont know why they would lie about that to me though. Maybe they just dont know how to watch intact dogs, like most pet owners. Obviously not people who visit these forums, but the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs than trainers or really experienced dog owners who just love training, showing, breeding, or even just learning.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Baloney.


People who have intact dogs know that puppies can happen. Even pet owners. What you are doing is throwing all the pet owners here that keep their dogs intact in order for them to grow properly, be healthier, or for protection/other work under the bus. You are saying that pet owners cannot be trusted to keep their animals intact without breeding them. If that were the fact than one should have a kennel license/breeding permit to own intact dogs. Totally unnecessary. People can be responsible. Oops is more irresponsible than intentionally breeding ANY litter. If your buddy wanted puppies out of dog with an incontinence problem than he/she should say so and take her lumps, not throw dog owners under the bus.


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## Fodder

Tulip said:


> Oh, wow, I didnt realize I was being accused here until now. This is why I stopped going on dog forums as much as possible. You can never just ask simple questions without being attacked. I dont know if they "wanted" an "oops" litter. Who knows. I dont know why they would lie about that to me though. Maybe they just dont know how to watch intact dogs, like most pet owners. Obviously not people who visit these forums, but the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs than trainers or really experienced dog owners who just love training, showing, breeding, or even just learning.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Some could argue that at least part of the responsibility falls on the rehoming party who placed an intact dog in a home with another intact dog of the opposite sex.

Not to mention, your website, offering stud services, may also be raising flags for some members.

Just some things to consider before getting offended.


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## cliffson1

Why would you bring this question to a public forum? You have to expect a diversity of opinions from informed and uninformed and from folks that think their way is only right way. &#55358;&#56631;*♀
There is no right answer to your question, only personal opinions. Your initial question seems to be about the inbreeding aspect of pups in question. I have not seen many insightful answers to this........


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## Aly

Fodder said:


> Not to mention, your website, offering stud services, may also be raising flags for some members..


Oh dear...

:frown2:


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## Jax08

Tulip said:


> Oh, wow, I didnt realize I was being accused here until now.


Well I'm not accusing you of anything. You asked if a person would take a puppy from a litter that closely bred and I responded. But only someone who knows the pedigree can tell you what you MAY get from that litter with the close line breeding. I don't know pedigrees and I'm not going to pretend to. Very few people on this board know pedigrees.

You added information on your finances that opened this conversation up. Steve told you to really make sure your finances were secure and to think of the puppy as a rescue if you went forward with it. I agreed with this. Most solid piece of advice on the thread. 

Then you added information on the time line of rehoming your dog. So my question is not an accusation. It's just a question on why you wouldn't take your dog back given the small amount of time that has passed.

As far as the idea of you breeding goes.....if you title that dog and he turns out to be breed worthy then you have just as much right to breed as any of us with pedigree dogs who have been worked and proven to be breed worthy without being harassed over it.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Tulip said:


> Oh, wow, I didnt realize I was being accused here until now. This is why I stopped going on dog forums as much as possible. You can never just ask simple questions without being attacked. I dont know if they "wanted" an "oops" litter. Who knows. I dont know why they would lie about that to me though. Maybe they just dont know how to watch intact dogs, like most pet owners. Obviously not people who visit these forums, but the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs than trainers or really experienced dog owners who just love training, showing, breeding, or even just learning.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I 100% agree, the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs as trainers or really experienced dog people. Actually, this is why I get annoyed when this forum is like "don't spay or neuter, it isn't healthy!!" when the person posting CLEARLY is not doing what need to be done to prevent accidental breeding. 

In my experience, average pet people often aren't even willing/able to do enough supervision and management to prevent counter surfing, never mind breeding. That's fine. I don't care. But spay/neuter your dog if you don't want to be responsible for it. 

These people who took your dog should have immediately neutered him, in my opinion. I know people whose under exercised dogs break out of crates and they just shrug and say okay I'll let them trash my house while I am gone because I can't contain them. I can't imagine being okay with that.


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## WIBackpacker

Tulip said:


> *If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests*, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!
> 
> I can tell you that the father is OFA Fair on hips and Passing on elbows, and that both of his parents are OFA Excellent on hips and Passing on elbows. Only health problems that the site has ever had were UTIs. I do not know if the dam has been tested. I will try to get more info on her and her parents though.


Sire (Kodiak) Fair Hips / Normal Elbows.

Dam: Unknown Hips / Unknown Elbows

There’s nothing wrong with breeding a dog with Fair hips, Fair is a passing rating. But that dog should be brought to a female with MINUMIM known passing (fair) hips. Many would say the dog should only be brought to a female with Good or better hips. Fair x Mild or Fair x Moderate or Fair x Severe doesn’t stack the deck well for sound offspring. And this cross could be any of the above. 

A brief scan of Facebook leads to puppy sale ads out of closely related Steppenwolf Bach dogs, with people posting asking about hip ratings, which were not provided. So other potential buyers have noticed. Some females bred with prelims, others with no info. 

In OFA’s database, there are a number of related dogs with either Hip or Elbow ratings missing, but the other rating posted. In a number of cases, this seems to be done when either Hips OR Elbows didn’t pass, and the owner only allowed the favorable rating to be published, and chose to keep the unfavorable rating private. Random missing info is a red flag. If someone is going to go through the expense of getting films done and submitting, there’s no reason not to publish a passing rating for both Hips AND Elbows. 

To your original question, based on the public info available, I would not consider this a “health tested” litter.

If you’ve a mind to consider your dog as a future breeding candidate, discerning GSD puppy buyers will likely end up circling right back around to the missing or unknown orthopedic concerns in the pedigree listed above. There are multiple public references to Kodiak being a stud dog, which is probably where some of the eyebrow raising in this thread is coming from - but since I can’t read minds and I don’t have a time machine, my comments here are about health concerns.


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## Thecowboysgirl

Tulip said:


> Please no bashing or ranting. I am just asking for opinions, facts, and sources. I did not breed this litter myself. I do not own either of these dogs.
> 
> If you had the opportunity to get a free puppy with otherwise good bloodlines and health tests, would you accept a puppy from a litter where the dam's father is the sire's half-brother? Why or why not? What are the possible risks or things to be aware of? Links to sources, studies, etc. are greatly appreciated!
> 
> I can tell you that the father is OFA Fair on hips and Passing on elbows, and that both of his parents are OFA Excellent on hips and Passing on elbows. Only health problems that the site has ever had were UTIs. I do not know if the dam has been tested. I will try to get more info on her and her parents though.
> 
> Sire:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2199933-kodiak-vom-steppenwolf-bach
> 
> Dam's Mother:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2097794-berenike-zelgastar
> 
> Dam's Father:http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1875194-yago-von-felsschlucht-bach


I own two dogs that are pretty heavily linebred...inbred...however you want to say it. I can say more about one than the other because I know more about that breeder. That breeding was carefully planned. The dogs had been used a lot in the breeding program and the breeder has been doing this awhile. I would call her experienced. I think it's safe to say she probably had a pretty good idea of what to expect those dogs to produce. There was extensive health testing. The two individual parents had a progeny list on the OFA database and had produced nothing less than a Good and several Excellents between them.

I'm happy with the dog. He is not breedworthy due to a genetic thing though. Whether that has to do with the linebreeding, I have no idea. Not something that threatens his well being.

I should have said first I'm not qualified to have an opinion about pedigrees like this because I really just don't have the knowledge. I did not research it before I bought this dog. I do have confidence in his breeder's knowledge though. 

All that said, I would NOT want a puppy from what you described above. What you described as far as I can tell is absolutely not something done thoughtfully, carefully, with all possible testing and screening and deep knowledge of the dogs and the lines. 

This topic came up a lot when I was breeding goats- and I think I do understand why people do that sort of breeding, to set a type, for uniformity in what they produce, etc. But I think it was a goat breeder I recall saying "you really want to know what nasties are going to or possibly going to pop up". And you really don't know. what you DO know, is that the one dog you know something about, is not as good as he can be. He has only Fair hips and a chronic health issue. 

The financial burden of the sire's problem was too much for you. Who knows what kind of a worse burden you might wind up with from one of these puppies. Free sounds good until you find out what other problems it has. I'd definitely pass.

If you want to do something, do it right. If you want to breed dogs, start with a well bred dog. I wouldn't begrudge anyone who wants to learn to breed dogs. Sure you could wind up with a good dog from this. But I don't think the odds are stacked in your favor, and when you get right down to it, it's all a gamble. I would want the best odds possible for success.

Unless of course you are legitimately fine with whatever issues the puppy may have- you are sure you are going to be financially able to deal with whatever issues come up, and you are sure you are fine with not being able to breed the dog if it doesn't stack up. And please be really honest with yourself about those things. Things happen, people have to give dogs up, whatever. But don't make the same mistake twice.


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## Jax08

I would not get a puppy from this breeding. As I stated in one of my first posts -*IF *there was a reason for the breeding, I would. There was no reason other than carelessness and to many unknowns on health and temperament.


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## sebrench

If I was serious about competing in a sport and breeding, as a novice I would start off with a female puppy from an experienced breeder who could guide me along the way and who could help me understand pedigrees. If I only wanted a companion, I would only consider this litter (or any BYB) if I could afford a pet insurance policy. Without pet insurance, I would pass, as it seems like there could be a greater chance of health issues, especially with a non-professional breeder.


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## tc68

Tulip said:


> I'm not really planning on breeding this new puppy unless she just unexpectedly turns out to be exceptional in terms of temperament, working ability, and heath, and while I would like to compete her in Schutzhund, I'm not going to get my hopes up with her being some world champion or anything. The only thing I'm really worried about is getting a puppy that turns out wonky with devastating health issues. As long as they turn out good looking and with reasonably decent health, I'm happy with a free puppy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Sorry, let me get this straight: You're questioning the inbreeding of the pups and the problems that may come from it...and so you're ok about breeding the pup if it turns out "exceptional"??!! NO! Please don't put these genes back into the pool. Take a puppy if you want, but be a responsible GSD owner and please have it fixed when it's fully matured.

A little story. My previous GSD was from a backyard breeder. I didn't know any better back then. He turned out to be exceptional in personality, temperament, etc...everything, except in health. He had EPI and numerous other little health problems. I wanted so much to breed him, but I knew I couldn't pass on his genes to the next generations. I recently estimated how much I spent on that dog in the 12 years that I owned him.....somewhere between $25K to $30K!!! Maybe even more. You mentioned that you saved up enough for an emergency fund. Will you have enough if it turns out your dog has a permanent health problem like mine did? Something you need to consider especially from an inbred pup. Your pup may not have health problems but it will pass down these genes and we all know...bad health can skip a generation.

You obviously knew there were going to be a difference of opinions and so your very first sentence was a disclaimer. So don't jump down our throats when we give "advice" that you don't like to hear. You asked. Despite what you might be thinking about forums, we aren't all here to bash you. Most of these are good solid advice. We all know that at the end of the day, you're going to do what you want. Take all these opinions and advice and seriously reconsider your intentions. At the least, please reconsider fixing the pup if you do get it.


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## Tulip

selzer said:


> Baloney.
> 
> 
> People who have intact dogs know that puppies can happen. Even pet owners. What you are doing is throwing all the pet owners here that keep their dogs intact in order for them to grow properly, be healthier, or for protection/other work under the bus. You are saying that pet owners cannot be trusted to keep their animals intact without breeding them. If that were the fact than one should have a kennel license/breeding permit to own intact dogs. Totally unnecessary. People can be responsible. Oops is more irresponsible than intentionally breeding ANY litter. If your buddy wanted puppies out of dog with an incontinence problem than he/she should say so and take her lumps, not throw dog owners under the bus.


I never threw all pet dog owners under the bus? I said the average pet owner. I work with pet owners all day every day and the AVERAGE one doesnt know how to watch intact dogs. I mentioned that of course there are many pet dog owners, especially those who visit forums like these, who ARE responsible enough to avoid oops litters. I never said ALL pet owners are irresponsible.

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## Tulip

Fodder said:


> Some could argue that at least part of the responsibility falls on the rehoming party who placed an intact dog in a home with another intact dog of the opposite sex.
> 
> Not to mention, your website, offering stud services, may also be raising flags for some members.
> 
> Just some things to consider before getting offended.


Ugh, sorry I havent taken that down yet. No one seems to visit it anyway.

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## Tulip

cliffson1 said:


> Why would you bring this question to a public forum? You have to expect a diversity of opinions from informed and uninformed and from folks that think their way is only right way. &#55358;&#56631;*♀
> There is no right answer to your question, only personal opinions. Your initial question seems to be about the inbreeding aspect of pups in question. I have not seen many insightful answers to this........


Thank you, you are right.

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## Tulip

Jax08 said:


> Well I'm not accusing you of anything. You asked if a person would take a puppy from a litter that closely bred and I responded. But only someone who knows the pedigree can tell you what you MAY get from that litter with the close line breeding. I don't know pedigrees and I'm not going to pretend to. Very few people on this board know pedigrees.
> 
> You added information on your finances that opened this conversation up. Steve told you to really make sure your finances were secure and to think of the puppy as a rescue if you went forward with it. I agreed with this. Most solid piece of advice on the thread.
> 
> Then you added information on the time line of rehoming your dog. So my question is not an accusation. It's just a question on why you wouldn't take your dog back given the small amount of time that has passed.
> 
> As far as the idea of you breeding goes.....if you title that dog and he turns out to be breed worthy then you have just as much right to breed as any of us with pedigree dogs who have been worked and proven to be breed worthy without being harassed over it.


Thank you for your response!

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## Tulip

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I 100% agree, the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs as trainers or really experienced dog people. Actually, this is why I get annoyed when this forum is like "don't spay or neuter, it isn't healthy!!" when the person posting CLEARLY is not doing what need to be done to prevent accidental breeding.
> 
> In my experience, average pet people often aren't even willing/able to do enough supervision and management to prevent counter surfing, never mind breeding. That's fine. I don't care. But spay/neuter your dog if you don't want to be responsible for it.
> 
> These people who took your dog should have immediately neutered him, in my opinion. I know people whose under exercised dogs break out of crates and they just shrug and say okay I'll let them trash my house while I am gone because I can't contain them. I can't imagine being okay with that.


I agree completely!

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## Tulip

WIBackpacker said:


> Sire (Kodiak) Fair Hips / Normal Elbows.
> 
> Dam: Unknown Hips / Unknown Elbows
> 
> There’s nothing wrong with breeding a dog with Fair hips, Fair is a passing rating. But that dog should be brought to a female with MINUMIM known passing (fair) hips. Many would say the dog should only be brought to a female with Good or better hips. Fair x Mild or Fair x Moderate or Fair x Severe doesn’t stack the deck well for sound offspring. And this cross could be any of the above.
> 
> A brief scan of Facebook leads to puppy sale ads out of closely related Steppenwolf Bach dogs, with people posting asking about hip ratings, which were not provided. So other potential buyers have noticed. Some females bred with prelims, others with no info.
> 
> In OFA’s database, there are a number of related dogs with either Hip or Elbow ratings missing, but the other rating posted. In a number of cases, this seems to be done when either Hips OR Elbows didn’t pass, and the owner only allowed the favorable rating to be published, and chose to keep the unfavorable rating private. Random missing info is a red flag. If someone is going to go through the expense of getting films done and submitting, there’s no reason not to publish a passing rating for both Hips AND Elbows.
> 
> To your original question, based on the public info available, I would not consider this a “health tested” litter.
> 
> If you’ve a mind to consider your dog as a future breeding candidate, discerning GSD puppy buyers will likely end up circling right back around to the missing or unknown orthopedic concerns in the pedigree listed above. There are multiple public references to Kodiak being a stud dog, which is probably where some of the eyebrow raising in this thread is coming from - but since I can’t read minds and I don’t have a time machine, my comments here are about health concerns.


Yes, you are right, I should have said partially heath tested. Kody's parents both have OFA Excellent and Passing hips and elbows, and I know Kilo's dad has passing hips and elbows but idk the rating on his hips. It looks like her mom's ratings are on her pedigree but I dont know how to read those since they aren't OFA?

And yes, I did used to advertise Kody as a stud dog, however no one ever contacted me about it and he had never been bred before.

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## lhczth

2-3 linebreeding is very close and, while not allowed by the SV anymore, there are knowledgeable breeders doing those breedings or have in the past. The linebreeding in and of itself would not be the reason to not take a pup from the litter. I worry more about the reoccurring UTI in the male as indicating an underlying genetic issue predisposing him and maybe his kids to the same issue. 



If you look at this pup as a rescue to have fun with and you like the temperament of the pup, the sire and dam then it might be worth taking the risk. IF you are looking for a future breeding bitch, then I would pass mostly on the unknown hip/elbow ratings on mom, her sire and his mother and the possible health issues coming from dad. The linebreeding is the least of your worries though the health issues in dad could be coming from his sire (the dog that is linebred on).


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## Aly

Given the new information that's emerged in your subsequent posts, @Tulip, my advice is now this: Do NOT take this (or any other) puppy. DO seek out an experienced, reputable breeder and see if you can arrange a mentoring relationship. DO seek out IPO or other dog training/competing clubs and soak up all you can learn. (That might be a good way to find a mentor, as well). DO continue to save your money, so that when you've expanded your knowledge base and management skills, you'll be better positioned to raise a pup. 

Frankly, your posts have raised more disturbing questions than they've answered (e.g., How did you happen to place your stud in a home containing such a _closely _related, unneutered female?). So, take the time to better position yourself (financially, educationally, etc) for what you may want to do down the road. It won't be wasted.


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## Sabis mom

Tulip said:


> Oh, wow, I didnt realize I was being accused here until now. This is why I stopped going on dog forums as much as possible. You can never just ask simple questions without being attacked. I dont know if they "wanted" an "oops" litter. Who knows. I dont know why they would lie about that to me though. Maybe they just dont know how to watch intact dogs, like most pet owners. Obviously not people who visit these forums, but the average pet owner is nowhere near as responsible and watchful of their dogs than trainers or really experienced dog owners who just love training, showing, breeding, or even just learning.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I am not attacking you or accusing you of anything. The fact that you may feel attacked could speak to a guilty conscience. 
I suspect that if you do some soul searching you will realize that you represented your dog a stud when in fact you had failed to do your part with regards to health testing and proving his worth as breeding stock. You then passed him on to someone with an intact female. You represent yourself as a trainer and breeder so perhaps the folks that you gave him to, being just pet owners and all, bowed to your expert opinion and decided it would not be terrible if he bred their bitch.

Regardless, since your goals are competition and breeding this is not the puppy for you. Linebreeding is pretty common in the horse world so I am familiar with the concept, however this is not a planned breeding and no thought was put into it. Partial health testing does not cut it. It's like sort of wearing a seat belt. It's one of those do it or don't things.


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## Tulip

tc68 said:


> Sorry, let me get this straight: You're questioning the inbreeding of the pups and the problems that may come from it...and so you're ok about breeding the pup if it turns out "exceptional"??!! NO! Please don't put these genes back into the pool. Take a puppy if you want, but be a responsible GSD owner and please have it fixed when it's fully matured.
> 
> A little story. My previous GSD was from a backyard breeder. I didn't know any better back then. He turned out to be exceptional in personality, temperament, etc...everything, except in health. He had EPI and numerous other little health problems. I wanted so much to breed him, but I knew I couldn't pass on his genes to the next generations. I recently estimated how much I spent on that dog in the 12 years that I owned him.....somewhere between $25K to $30K!!! Maybe even more. You mentioned that you saved up enough for an emergency fund. Will you have enough if it turns out your dog has a permanent health problem like mine did? Something you need to consider especially from an inbred pup. Your pup may not have health problems but it will pass down these genes and we all know...bad health can skip a generation.
> 
> You obviously knew there were going to be a difference of opinions and so your very first sentence was a disclaimer. So don't jump down our throats when we give "advice" that you don't like to hear. You asked. Despite what you might be thinking about forums, we aren't all here to bash you. Most of these are good solid advice. We all know that at the end of the day, you're going to do what you want. Take all these opinions and advice and seriously reconsider your intentions. At the least, please reconsider fixing the pup if you do get it.


I already said earlier that if she shouldnt ne bred then that's fine, but I won't be spaying her. I know how to watch an intact dog.

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## Tulip

Aly said:


> Given the new information that's emerged in your subsequent posts, @Tulip, my advice is now this: Do NOT take this (or any other) puppy. DO seek out an experienced, reputable breeder and see if you can arrange a mentoring relationship. DO seek out IPO or other dog training/competing clubs and soak up all you can learn. (That might be a good way to find a mentor, as well). DO continue to save your money, so that when you've expanded your knowledge base and management skills, you'll be better positioned to raise a pup.
> 
> Frankly, your posts have raised more disturbing questions than they've answered (e.g., How did you happen to place your stud in a home containing such a _closely _related, unneutered female?). So, take the time to better position yourself (financially, educationally, etc) for what you may want to do down the road. It won't be wasted.


Well in the breeder contract when I got him it started that I had to contact the breeder first before rehoming him. She had found someone else who had gotten a puppy from her a couple years ago who wanted to take Kody. Simple as that. I dont know how that "raises disturbing questions". 

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## Tulip

Sabis mom said:


> I am not attacking you or accusing you of anything. The fact that you may feel attacked could speak to a guilty conscience.
> I suspect that if you do some soul searching you will realize that you represented your dog a stud when in fact you had failed to do your part with regards to health testing and proving his worth as breeding stock. You then passed him on to someone with an intact female. You represent yourself as a trainer and breeder so perhaps the folks that you gave him to, being just pet owners and all, bowed to your expert opinion and decided it would not be terrible if he bred their bitch.
> 
> Regardless, since your goals are competition and breeding this is not the puppy for you. Linebreeding is pretty common in the horse world so I am familiar with the concept, however this is not a planned breeding and no thought was put into it. Partial health testing does not cut it. It's like sort of wearing a seat belt. It's one of those do it or don't things.


"Bowed to my expert opinion"? I have never condoned inbreeding and never suggested they should breed Kody, let alone with their own dog. They have no idea as far as i know that I train or breed. All they know is that i had a dog from the same breeder that i couldn't afford to take care of anymore. I was very upfront about his health issues. A while after they took him in, they asked me if I could send them his AKC paperwork since he accidentally mated with their dog, so I went ahead and sent it to them. That's all I know.

Let me go ahead and rephrase my question. If your goal is to compete (for fun, not crazy competitively) and have a pet only, would you get a pup from this litter for free?


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## cliffson1

Tulip said:


> Thank you, you are right.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Earlier this morning I couldn’t see the pedigree because the links wouldn’t open, I have since looked at the pedigree. I know these lines and have owned dogs from the lines of both parents. Send me a pm and I will tell you what I think about the genetics. As for the uti condition, I have known many dogs that had reoccurring uti, I do not know of this being a genetically predisposed condition that is passed to pups.....but my exposure to this is very limited compared to many folks on the forum. I also know the hip history of these lines, excluding the parent that we don’t have info on.


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## Tulip

cliffson1 said:


> Earlier this morning I couldn’t see the pedigree because the links wouldn’t open, I have since looked at the pedigree. I know these lines and have owned dogs from the lines of both parents. Send me a pm and I will tell you what I think about the genetics. As for the uti condition, I have known many dogs that had reoccurring uti, I do not know of this being a genetically predisposed condition that is passed to pups.....but my exposure to this is very limited compared to many folks on the forum. I also know the hip history of these lines, excluding the parent that we don’t have info on.


Thank you so much!

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## Judy Untamed

Tulip said:


> Let me go ahead and rephrase my question. If your goal is to compete (for fun, not crazy competitively) and have a pet only, would you get a pup from this litter for free?


A quick disclaimer before I try to answer this very direct question: I'm still a newb, having done tons of research over the last several months, and finally just put down a deposit on a puppy from a well-bred litter. My answer is nothing more than my thought process and opinion that may or may not give you something to think about. 

Regarding nothing more than your stated goal for the pup....I don't see any reason why you shouldn't take one. A nice pet, a warm companion, a dog that enjoys a fun, active life playing with IPO or agility or something, without expecting championship results....those can come from anywhere, including this litter. 

HOWEVER...there does seem to be a fairly high risk for some health issues along the way. There's a good chance you might end up right where you were when you had to rehome the sire. * So long as you take THAT risk into serious consideration and feel you are able to fully embrace it if it happens again*.....then, in my opinion....go for it. 

Personally, I would not. I'm very gunshy about taking in a pup with chronic health issues. I accept the very small risk of that, knowing that there's never 100% certainty in any living creature...but I mitigate that risk as much as I can by choosing a puppy from a known, strong and healthy breeding.

Best of luck to you, whichever way you decide to go!


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## wolfy dog

OP, your initial question seems to me (MHO) that you already have doubts about this plan but seeking approval. Listen to your gut. If you decide to get a pup anyways, and only you know the answer to that, make sure you put/her on health insurance as soon as possible before she develops any pre-existing conditions that wil prevent reimbursement.
Since you have sent them the AKC papers, the new owners may be tempted to breed him again, especially if they are able to sell the pups.
All in all it feels like a vague story to me.


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## Tulip

Judy Untamed said:


> A quick disclaimer before I try to answer this very direct question: I'm still a newb, having done tons of research over the last several months, and finally just put down a deposit on a puppy from a well-bred litter. My answer is nothing more than my thought process and opinion that may or may not give you something to think about.
> 
> Regarding nothing more than your stated goal for the pup....I don't see any reason why you shouldn't take one. A nice pet, a warm companion, a dog that enjoys a fun, active life playing with IPO or agility or something, without expecting championship results....those can come from anywhere, including this litter.
> 
> HOWEVER...there does seem to be a fairly high risk for some health issues along the way. There's a good chance you might end up right where you were when you had to rehome the sire. * So long as you take THAT risk into serious consideration and feel you are able to fully embrace it if it happens again*.....then, in my opinion....go for it.
> 
> Personally, I would not. I'm very gunshy about taking in a pup with chronic health issues. I accept the very small risk of that, knowing that there's never 100% certainty in any living creature...but I mitigate that risk as much as I can by choosing a puppy from a known, strong and healthy breeding.
> 
> Best of luck to you, whichever way you decide to go!


Thank you for the response!

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## Tulip

wolfy dog said:


> OP, your initial question seems to me (MHO) that you already have doubts about this plan but seeking approval. Listen to your gut. If you decide to get a pup anyways, and only you know the answer to that, make sure you put/her on health insurance as soon as possible before she develops any pre-existing conditions that wil prevent reimbursement.
> Since you have sent them the AKC papers, the new owners may be tempted to breed him again, especially if they are able to sell the pups.
> All in all it feels like a vague story to me.


Maybe they did breed them on purpose, who knows. I really dont know why they would lie to me about it tho tbh

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## Jax08

Tulip said:


> Let me go ahead and rephrase my question. If your goal is to compete (for fun, not crazy competitively) and have a pet only, would you get a pup from this litter for free?


Again - it would depend on what someone knowledgeable has to say about the pedigree. If the dog is unhealthy, what you have is an unhealthy pet that can't compete.

Mine are pets first. But I bought my puppy with the intention of trialing at Nationals. I have my male and hope to do a nationals this year before I retire him. 

It all depends on your goals (yes, you can compete at nationals for fun!!) and it depends on what risks you are willing to take. 

Let me assure you....there is no such thing as "free".


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## Saco

If all you want is a pet, I'd take the puppy. Get health insurance on her, and enjoy the pup. If you are serious about IPO, get a pup bred for IPO. 

One quick note on the "never spaying" idea, though. A large percentage of intact females who go through multiple heat cycles and are never bred, will get pyometra. It is deadly if not treated, and treatment is spaying the dog. It usually strikes females from age 7 and up.

Mammary cancer is another increased and very serious risk when you keep a dog intact and don't spay her.

It is actually far healthier for a female dog to be bred multiple times in her life than to be intact and never bred. 

If you don't breed her, you should do some research and seriously consider spaying her at age 2-4.


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## Tulip

Saco said:


> If all you want is a pet, I'd take the puppy. Get health insurance on her, and enjoy the pup. If you are serious about IPO, get a pup bred for IPO.
> 
> One quick note on the "never spaying" idea, though. A large percentage of intact females who go through multiple heat cycles and are never bred, will get pyometra. It is deadly if not treated, and treatment is spaying the dog. It usually strikes females from age 7 and up.
> 
> Mammary cancer is another increased and very serious risk when you keep a dog intact and don't spay her.
> 
> It is actually far healthier for a female dog to be bred multiple times in her life than to be intact and never bred.
> 
> If you don't breed her, you should do some research and seriously consider spaying her at age 2-4.


Thank you, I will do some research on pyometria and mammary cancer and consider spaying at a later age.

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## Aly

Tulip said:


> Well in the breeder contract when I got him it started that I had to contact the breeder first before rehoming him. She had found someone else who had gotten a puppy from her a couple years ago who wanted to take Kody. Simple as that. I dont know how that "raises disturbing questions".


The example that I provided was just that, an example; but here's what's stands out to me. Someone (whether you or the original breeder) decided that it was okay for two _very _closely related and unneutered dogs to reside in the same home --- without, apparently, ensuring that the new owners were experienced/knowledgeable enough to provide proper management. To be fair, perhaps you/breeder did, but the new owners seem to be marching to the beat of their own drum at this point. 

So, we now have what is _described _as an unplanned litter, from which you've apparently been offered a puppy. That offer too closely resembles a stud fee to me --- whether _you _recognize it as such or not. That the new owners requested and received Kodi's registration papers also is concerning to me. Why would they need the papers except to register the litter and $ell these _very _closely bred puppies for more money? 

I understand being faced with large and mounting bills for veterinary care. I also understand the need to get out from under that crush. But how one does that is as important as what one does. 

Frankly, this entire scenario reflects a certain level of inexperience and/or carelessness that I find concerning. There are multiple people mentioned in your posts, so I'm not just speaking about you alone in this. For example, in an earlier post, you mentioned that you didn't plan to breed the puppy unless s/he turned out to be an outstanding specimen (or words to that effect). Do you have the experience and knowledge base to know what an outstanding specimen would look like or how to develop and train it, whether for conformation or sport? Further, you earlier dismissed concerns raised about the stud service you'd offered with Kodi by rather cavalierly stating that no one had responded to it. The issue _isn't _ that no one availed themselves of Kodi's stud service,_ the issue is how you decided that his genes and temperament were worthy of being passed on_. 

It's because of concerns like this that I think you (and the breed) would be better served by entering into a mentoring relationship with a reputable breeder or trainer. Personal initiative is great and I applaud you for that, but the requisite skill set doesn't appear to be in place at present. At base, these are living, sentient beings and I'm not talking about future owners. I believe due care and preparation is requisite; IMO you're not there yet. 

And, no, I still wouldn't accept this puppy for all the reasons that I stated earlier.


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## Tulip

Aly said:


> The example that I provided was just that, an example; but here's what's stands out to me. Someone (whether you or the original breeder) decided that it was okay for two _very _closely related and unneutered dogs to reside in the same home --- without, apparently, ensuring that the new owners were experienced/knowledgeable enough to provide proper management. To be fair, perhaps you/breeder did, but the new owners seem to be marching to the beat of their own drum at this point.
> 
> So, we now have what is _described _as an unplanned litter, from which you've apparently been offered a puppy. That offer too closely resembles a stud fee to me --- whether _you _recognize it as such or not. That the new owners requested and received Kodi's registration papers also is concerning to me. Why would they need the papers except to register the litter and $ell these _very _closely bred puppies for more money?
> 
> I understand being faced with large and mounting bills for veterinary care. I also understand the need to get out from under that crush. But how one does that is as important as what one does.
> 
> Frankly, this entire scenario reflects a certain level of inexperience and/or carelessness that I find concerning. There are multiple people mentioned in your posts, so I'm not just speaking about you alone in this. For example, in an earlier post, you mentioned that you didn't plan to breed the puppy unless s/he turned out to be an outstanding specimen (or words to that effect). Do you have the experience and knowledge base to know what an outstanding specimen would look like or how to develop and train it, whether for conformation or sport? Further, you earlier dismissed concerns raised about the stud service you'd offered with Kodi by rather cavalierly stating that no one had responded to it. The issue _isn't _ that no one availed themselves of Kodi's stud service,_ the issue is how you decided that his genes and temperament were worthy of being passed on_.
> 
> It's because of concerns like this that I think you (and the breed) would be better served by entering into a mentoring relationship with a reputable breeder or trainer. Personal initiative is great and I applaud you for that, but the requisite skill set doesn't appear to be in place at present. At base, these are living, sentient beings and I'm not talking about future owners. I believe due care and preparation is requisite; IMO you're not there yet.
> 
> And, no, I still wouldn't accept this puppy for all the reasons that I stated earlier.


That would be great if breeders actually did that sort of thing. If you can reccomend someone in the Dallas area, that would be awesome, but I have gone on missions to find a breeding mentor multiple times in the past and have always gotten either no replies or just a no.

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## Saco

I'm not excusing it, but I do know of many responsible breeders, who are highly regarded, but have had at least one oops litter. 

Generally, it's not publicly acknowledged as such. Usually breeders don't keep a closely related and intact male and female, in part because of this risk.


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## WIBackpacker

Tulip said:


> That would be great if breeders actually did that sort of thing. If you can reccomend someone in the Dallas area, that would be awesome, but I have gone on missions to find a breeding mentor multiple times in the past and have always gotten either no replies or just a no.


There are breeders out there who really do take their puppy buyers 'under their wing' so to speak, and offer such thorough support that I would consider it mentoring.

Another path is to really immerse yourself in dog sport or work in one capacity or another. After people know you, and you've spent a lot of time around one another (in person, not just online "friends"), they become much more free with their knowledge. A training friend recently invited me to come help whelp a litter later this year. There's no way she'd allow a stranger in her house in the middle of the night while she's helping deliver puppies, but all the hours and hours we've spent together have grown a friendship that has opened some new doors.


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## Aly

Tulip said:


> That would be great if breeders actually did that sort of thing. If you can reccomend someone in the Dallas area, that would be awesome, but I have gone on missions to find a breeding mentor multiple times in the past and have always gotten either no replies or just a no.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


IME, breeders _do_ do that sort of thing. They may not be thick on the ground, but they're out there. I don't know anyone in Dallas, but if you post a query here (in a separate thread), some members may have suggestions. Also, suss out the local dog or training clubs in your area; call them up and ask if you can come and observe. Then see if there are folks who would be open to that kind of thing. Or, go to all breed dog shows in your area (check the AKC and GSDCA websites) and talk to breeders in person.


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## sebrench

Tulip said:


> That would be great if breeders actually did that sort of thing. If you can reccomend someone in the Dallas area, that would be awesome, but I have gone on missions to find a breeding mentor multiple times in the past and have always gotten either no replies or just a no.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Are there any IPO clubs in your area? Perhaps, participating in a sport (or showing, depending on your interests) would allow you to make contacts in the dog-world and would show experienced breeders that you are dedicated. If I were a professional breeder, I might be interested in mentoring someone who had bought a puppy from me and who was competing with it, or someone who I met in person and knew to be serious. If you're interested, I hope you can find someone to mentor you. Breeding sounds like a really rewarding thing to do if done in the right way. I would think getting involved, meeting people, and titling a dog would be the first step.


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## Jax08

There are clubs in the Dallas area. Just look on the USCA page. DFW club is right there. Very knowledgeable people there.


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## Tulip

I am planning on taking the pup to a Schutzhund club nearby, so maybe that will help me make friends in the dog world

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## Judy Untamed

Tulip said:


> That would be great if breeders actually did that sort of thing. If you can reccomend someone in the Dallas area, that would be awesome, but I have gone on missions to find a breeding mentor multiple times in the past and have always gotten either no replies or just a no.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


This kind of mentoring absolutely is available...but there's no short-cuts to finding it. A letter from a stranger, out of the blue, asking to be mentored is not going to go anywhere. Mentoring is a relationship and relationships take time. 

If you're serious about wanting to get into breeding, then you'll want to find quality, breed-worthy dogs. Write to breeders asking about their pups and litters and what may be available. THAT can open the door to a relationship, at least the very earliest stages. Find a breeder you're compatible with (personality and philosophically) and work towards buying one of their pups. As someone else mentioned....many breeders are very invested in their own pups and the families/people they end up with. Stay in touch, ask questions, join the same clubs and activities....SHOW them that you're willing and able to invest the time (and money!) that it would take to start breeding responsibly. 

To do it right...I'm thinking it's a long journey with no short-cuts. 

(And these thoughts and opinions come from traveling a similar journey with a different kind of animal. I'm good friends with some of the top breeders in the country, but those relationships did not happen with an email request.  )


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## Tulip

Judy Untamed said:


> This kind of mentoring absolutely is available...but there's no short-cuts to finding it. A letter from a stranger, out of the blue, asking to be mentored is not going to go anywhere. Mentoring is a relationship and relationships take time.
> 
> If you're serious about wanting to get into breeding, then you'll want to find quality, breed-worthy dogs. Write to breeders asking about their pups and litters and what may be available. THAT can open the door to a relationship, at least the very earliest stages. Find a breeder you're compatible with (personality and philosophically) and work towards buying one of their pups. As someone else mentioned....many breeders are very invested in their own pups and the families/people they end up with. Stay in touch, ask questions, join the same clubs and activities....SHOW them that you're willing and able to invest the time (and money!) that it would take to start breeding responsibly.
> 
> To do it right...I'm thinking it's a long journey with no short-cuts.
> 
> (And these thoughts and opinions come from traveling a similar journey with a different kind of animal. I'm good friends with some of the top breeders in the country, but those relationships did not happen with an email request.  )


Thanks for the advice! I'll probably start out with talking to people at the club with this pup, and later down on the line when my husband and I get a house and have more space and I'm ready for a new pup of breeding quality, I'll follow this advice.

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## Sabis mom

Tulip said:


> That would be great if breeders actually did that sort of thing. If you can reccomend someone in the Dallas area, that would be awesome, but I have gone on missions to find a breeding mentor multiple times in the past and have always gotten either no replies or just a no.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


If I went online and said teach me what you know I would guess the answer would be NO. If I found a reputable breeder/club near me and went in, hat in hand, and said I would like to talk I would guess the answer would be sure. If I found a reputable, knowledgeable breeder and bought a puppy, or maybe fostered a retired dog to learn IPO with and built a relationship I would guess that the information that could be obtained would be huge. 
I'm old and a bit feisty, but when I actually shut my mouth and open my ears I really do learn stuff. This forum has been a huge source of info for me, when I am not busy arguing. 

As a kid I was horse crazy, and poor. So I would hang around the local barns, shoveling crap and listening. I basically worked for free to learn. And boy did I learn. 

When I wanted to do k9 I took much the same approach. I sat and watched the training, I volunteered to clean kennels, I helped with the pups, I ran errands, I held leashes, I LISTENED and I learned. Then I accepted the worst dog in the kennel, got bit a couple of times and proved I was willing to do the work. 


We all crawled before we walked.

Turn this puppy down. Find a reputable breeder and start at the beginning.


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## MineAreWorkingline

If I remember correctly, you had struggled with your dog for a long time with little results. Are you sure you would want to take up again with a descendant of this dog or one of the same breeding? Temperament_ is_ hereditary.

I once had a dog that had persistent UTIs starting at age six. Had to get him neutered eventually and had one more year of peace before the problems started again. He had bladder cancer, a type common in other breeds of dogs but quite rare in German Shepherds. The oncologist assured me that if I were able to track his family tree, I would find the same type of cancer in the same locations as it would have to be hereditary for it to show up in this breed.


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## Tulip

MineAreWorkingline said:


> If I remember correctly, you had struggled with your dog for a long time with little results. Are you sure you would want to take up again with a descendant of this dog or one of the same breeding? Temperament_ is_ hereditary.
> 
> I once had a dog that had persistent UTIs starting at age six. Had to get him neutered eventually and had one more year of peace before the problems started again. He had bladder cancer, a type common in other breeds of dogs but quite rare in German Shepherds. The oncologist assured me that if I were able to track his family tree, I would find the same type of cancer in the same locations as it would have to be hereditary for it to show up in this breed.


I now have free access to doggie daycare every day and can take my dog to work with me and have permission to train my dog at work when we're slow and no longer have a backyard, so I will have a much easier time socializing and working with this one. Thank you for the info on the bladder cancer though, I will definitely look into that and let Kody and Kilo's parents know. I'm also not 14 and still in school while working at the same time and trying to raise a new puppy. Now I have a husband who helps out, our own place, and a job that I can take her with me to.


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## Aly

Sabis mom said:


> As a kid I was horse crazy, and poor. So I would hang around the local barns, shoveling crap and listening. I basically worked for free to learn. And boy did I learn.
> 
> When I wanted to do k9 I took much the same approach. I sat and watched the training, I volunteered to clean kennels, I helped with the pups, I ran errands, I held leashes, I LISTENED and I learned. Then I accepted the worst dog in the kennel, got bit a couple of times and proved I was willing to do the work.
> 
> 
> We all crawled before we walked.
> 
> Turn this puppy down. Find a reputable breeder and start at the beginning.


Best advice in this thread!


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## selzer

If the sire of the litter is a dog that you owned, but rehomed, to me that suggests that for some reason you did not connect well with the sire. Recurrent UTIs is not a reason, in itself, to rehome a dog that you care deeply for. Neither is finances. (Ok, if you are living in a box under the bridge, maybe.) 

When you have a dog that has the temperament that you like, that works for your lifestyle, etc., then health issues, money issues -- none of that will make you re-home the dog. 

Don't get me wrong, I don't find re-homing a dog as anything bad at all. If done right, if it is better for the dog, for the old owner, and for the new owner, then no one should be ashamed of it. Taking a puppy out of dog that you gave up on, is the question. 

And whoever has this litter, why aren't they asking the same question? Do they not care for their puppies? Because I don't care who you are, you cannot ensure what the adult temperament is going to be at 8 weeks old. The more experienced you are with litters, the better you can match up folks by paying attention to drives and how the puppy acts within the litter, but it's a long way from adult temperament. 

So why? Why would you take a dog that is so closely related to a dog you didn't connect with?


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## Tulip

selzer said:


> If the sire of the litter is a dog that you owned, but rehomed, to me that suggests that for some reason you did not connect well with the sire. Recurrent UTIs is not a reason, in itself, to rehome a dog that you care deeply for. Neither is finances. (Ok, if you are living in a box under the bridge, maybe.)
> 
> When you have a dog that has the temperament that you like, that works for your lifestyle, etc., then health issues, money issues -- none of that will make you re-home the dog.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I don't find re-homing a dog as anything bad at all. If done right, if it is better for the dog, for the old owner, and for the new owner, then no one should be ashamed of it. Taking a puppy out of dog that you gave up on, is the question.
> 
> And whoever has this litter, why aren't they asking the same question? Do they not care for their puppies? Because I don't care who you are, you cannot ensure what the adult temperament is going to be at 8 weeks old. The more experienced you are with litters, the better you can match up folks by paying attention to drives and how the puppy acts within the litter, but it's a long way from adult temperament.
> 
> So why? Why would you take a dog that is so closely related to a dog you didn't connect with?


Didnt connect with? My husband keeps asking me why I cried so much when I gave him up even though it was better for him that I made the decision to rehome with. Like... because I raised him for 6 years and loved him? Who wouldnt cry over losing their baby even if they "aren't dead". I couldn't watch my baby get weaker and weaker every day, constantly wet himself, refuse food, vomit, begin to have excessive drooling and cognitive dysfunction, all because I couldn't afford to take him to the vet anymore times and was barely able to pay rent. So yeah, at that point I had to find him someone to take him ASAP, and my breeder found these people who fell in love with him immediately and got him the veterinary care he needed. He was definitely a handful growing up, but ever since my fiance and I moved into our own place and I got a job back working with dogs again, everything had been going so much better and almost every behavioral problem he had had was eliminated or improving drastically.

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## selzer

Tulip said:


> Didnt connect with? My husband keeps asking me why I cried so much when I gave him up even though it was better for him that I made the decision to rehome with. Like... because I raised him for 6 years and loved him? Who wouldnt cry over losing their baby even if they "aren't dead". I couldn't watch my baby get weaker and weaker every day, constantly wet himself, refuse food, vomit, begin to have excessive drooling and cognitive dysfunction, all because I couldn't afford to take him to the vet anymore times and was barely able to pay rent. So yeah, at that point I had to find him someone to take him ASAP, and my breeder found these people who fell in love with him immediately and got him the veterinary care he needed. He was definitely a handful growing up, but ever since my fiance and I moved into our own place and I got a job back working with dogs again, everything had been going so much better and almost every behavioral problem he had had was eliminated or improving drastically.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I have a bitch who shares my bed who is three years old and is dying of oral cancer. They gave her 180 days to live three months ago. I know what it is like to have a seriously ill dog. On top of that Babs is over 13 and Heidi is over 12 and both are losing their back ends, and it is just a matter of time. 

What I do not have is a husband to share in the house payment, the car payment, the bill for extensive therapy that my insurance company isn't paying for. Propane. Poor people have propane. Propane makes people poor. Dog food and vet bills. 

I won't go to doctors, but my dogs go to the vet. Sometimes you make a bill, sometimes you go without. Sometimes you take on a second job. There are help-wanted signs everywhere. Unemployment has been the lowest in decades. 

You took a dog that you had for six years, and raised from a pup, and had the breeder find him a new home, because he had health issues. What has changed? How can you take care of this pup? Because it is a flipping guaranty that unless you throw the pup under a bus, the pup is going to have health problems. It is part of being mortal. Some have less problems for a while, some have more. But unless they meet with a terrible accident when they are young, they are going to have some health concerns prior to dying. You and your husband together could not provide for the dog you had, and now you want another one. 

Another thing, we bond most closely, not with the easy, healthy specimens, but with the ones that have challenges, that we have to pay attention to, that we have to struggle with, that we have to change our style and work through things with. When we come to the other side with those dogs, it is like reading The Grapes of Wrath: you maybe did not enjoy it so much as you have experienced a bit of history and it has changed you. Wild horses will not separate me from my little Quinn. I will be there when they inject the purple juice. I will be holding her, because I am not going to let ANYONE take that place. I will be there for her -- you're situation is different, because it isn't a death sentence, I get that. 

I guess I am just a little irritated, that we can be all broken up by losing our older dog that has some challenges, but not so broken up that we are going to replace him with a pup out of him. And all the reasons we couldn't manage him just POOF!!! went away, and won't be a problem for the new little guy. I hope that works out for you, for the little guy's sake.


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## cliffson1

Tulip said:


> Didnt connect with? My husband keeps asking me why I cried so much when I gave him up even though it was better for him that I made the decision to rehome with. Like... because I raised him for 6 years and loved him? Who wouldnt cry over losing their baby even if they "aren't dead". I couldn't watch my baby get weaker and weaker every day, constantly wet himself, refuse food, vomit, begin to have excessive drooling and cognitive dysfunction, all because I couldn't afford to take him to the vet anymore times and was barely able to pay rent. So yeah, at that point I had to find him someone to take him ASAP, and my breeder found these people who fell in love with him immediately and got him the veterinary care he needed. He was definitely a handful growing up, but ever since my fiance and I moved into our own place and I got a job back working with dogs again, everything had been going so much better and almost every behavioral problem he had had was eliminated or improving drastically.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


You don’t owe anyone an explanation for your circumstances, nor should you let anyone guilt you with their standards as to what you should do in the future. Circumstances change, and most of the people giving the advice have no clue as to the probability of the type of puppy that will come from this breeding. I’m not telling you to or not to take a pup, I don’t know your Current situation....but I do know what to reasonably expect from this breeding, and that in conjunction with your current situation should guide your decision moreso than living up to people’s personal ideals.


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## Thecowboysgirl

cliffson1 said:


> You don’t owe anyone an explanation for your circumstances, nor should you let anyone guilt you with their standards as to what you should do in the future. Circumstances change, and most of the people giving the advice have no clue as to the probability of the type of puppy that will come from this breeding. I’m not telling you to or not to take a pup, I don’t know your Current situation....but I do know what to reasonably expect from this breeding, and that in conjunction with your current situation should guide your decision moreso than living up to people’s personal ideals.


What do you expect from the breeding? 

And, OP, are you counting on bringing the dog to daycare, because not all shepherds, especially intact ones, will do well in that environment.


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## Tulip

selzer said:


> I have a bitch who shares my bed who is three years old and is dying of oral cancer. They gave her 180 days to live three months ago. I know what it is like to have a seriously ill dog. On top of that Babs is over 13 and Heidi is over 12 and both are losing their back ends, and it is just a matter of time.
> 
> What I do not have is a husband to share in the house payment, the car payment, the bill for extensive therapy that my insurance company isn't paying for. Propane. Poor people have propane. Propane makes people poor. Dog food and vet bills.
> 
> I won't go to doctors, but my dogs go to the vet. Sometimes you make a bill, sometimes you go without. Sometimes you take on a second job. There are help-wanted signs everywhere. Unemployment has been the lowest in decades.
> 
> You took a dog that you had for six years, and raised from a pup, and had the breeder find him a new home, because he had health issues. What has changed? How can you take care of this pup? Because it is a flipping guaranty that unless you throw the pup under a bus, the pup is going to have health problems. It is part of being mortal. Some have less problems for a while, some have more. But unless they meet with a terrible accident when they are young, they are going to have some health concerns prior to dying. You and your husband together could not provide for the dog you had, and now you want another one.
> 
> Another thing, we bond most closely, not with the easy, healthy specimens, but with the ones that have challenges, that we have to pay attention to, that we have to struggle with, that we have to change our style and work through things with. When we come to the other side with those dogs, it is like reading The Grapes of Wrath: you maybe did not enjoy it so much as you have experienced a bit of history and it has changed you. Wild horses will not separate me from my little Quinn. I will be there when they inject the purple juice. I will be holding her, because I am not going to let ANYONE take that place. I will be there for her -- you're situation is different, because it isn't a death sentence, I get that.
> 
> I guess I am just a little irritated, that we can be all broken up by losing our older dog that has some challenges, but not so broken up that we are going to replace him with a pup out of him. And all the reasons we couldn't manage him just POOF!!! went away, and won't be a problem for the new little guy. I hope that works out for you, for the little guy's sake.


I was just irritated that someone said I "didnt even connect with him". That just... ugh. Unfortunately Kody's new owners want to keep him. Fortunately, I am making a lot more than before and have enough saved up for unexpected as well as routine vet visits that come my way. And yes, you are right, I am very lucky to have my husband to help out with the bills, so that definitely helps as well.

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## cliffson1

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What do you expect from the breeding?
> 
> And, OP, are you counting on bringing the dog to daycare, because not all shepherds, especially intact ones, will do well in that environment.


Genetically, I see a good strong litter. Low to moderate drives, with good hip history ( unless as I stated previously the one parent is severe or crippling in hips or elbows), actually better than average hip history.


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## Tulip

Thecowboysgirl said:


> What do you expect from the breeding?
> 
> And, OP, are you counting on bringing the dog to daycare, because not all shepherds, especially intact ones, will do well in that environment.


I'm not really expecting anything other than some high energy pups. I'm not even sure I understand the question tbh, I'm sorry.

No I'm not counting on daycare, obviously working there I know that not all shepherds do well in daycare. But regardless I can still bring her to work with me and keep her in a run and take care of her while I'm there.

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## cliffson1

I think cowboy girl was directing the expectation question to me?.


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## Jenny720

Anyone and everyone’s life can change in an instant. From good to worse to worse to good. We are all that vulnerable. No one though lives like they are though -nor should they. I’m glad you are back on your feet. It is why often the first thing people do is get pet insurance for their animals. There are no guarantees with this pup nor the next one you get regarding health the percentage may change in favor but there is still no guarantees. If you had a deep soul connection to the pups sire and wanted a pup because of that then I would suppose you would not even need to ask what to do- swallow the risks and march on through life with your pup. I suppose since you are asking strangers what you should do says a lot. It was mentioned you had struggled with the dogs temperament for many years which that is a bit concerning only because you were offered a pup from his accidental litter. I can see why these questions and concerns are raised they are valid.

Sylvester Stallone had to sell his dog he was homeless and had to eat. He was very much attached to his dog but could not feed him. He had written the script rocky and was able to make his movie deal. The first thing he did when he got his check was buy his dog back with a very generous offer. Now this is a beautiful story and it is not everyone’s story nor does it have to be. You are the only one that knows why you are considering this pup I hope they are for a valid reason not just because the pup is free.


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## Aly

Well said.


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## Gregc

Geez, this thread is a real nightmare. Look, this poster is just going to do what they want in the end..... I don't see anyone changing their mind. This is just getting sad.... and tiresome.


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## tc68

cliffson1 said:


> You don’t owe anyone an explanation for your circumstances, nor should you let anyone guilt you with their standards as to what you should do in the future. Circumstances change, and most of the people giving the advice have no clue as to the probability of the type of puppy that will come from this breeding. I’m not telling you to or not to take a pup, I don’t know your Current situation....but I do know what to reasonably expect from this breeding, and that in conjunction with your current situation should guide your decision moreso than living up to people’s personal ideals.


When you're in a public forum and you ask for people's opinion/advice, you've got to expect varying povs, especially ones that you don't like/agree with. Some people are more diplomatic and some are more blunt. I personally respond better to "blunt." If you have sensitive ears then maybe public forums and social media aren't the place to go for advice as I'm sure you're well aware how vicious people can be on social media.

She asked us for our opinions and the majority (not all) are saying don't get one from this litter and/or get it fixed. Like I said before, she's going to do what she wants. The chances that a pup from this litter will have health issues are greater than a "normal" pup. That doesn't mean it won't be healthy. It just means the likelihood of problems is greater...that's all. And that coupled with her not being able to afford the care of her previous dog is giving the rest of us pause and concern that she won't be able to do it for this next dog. It's a legitimate concern because what is the saying...the best predictor of the future is the past.

Anyway, to the OP...I wish you the best. Sincerely.


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## Tulip

cliffson1 said:


> I think cowboy girl was directing the expectation question to me.


Oops lol, makes more sense 

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## Kazel

Reading back from your older posts I wouldn't get a pup from this litter. As others have said temperament is hereditary. You can love a dog but not be a right fit with them. I was just fostering a male dog, he's a great dog and I really liked him, got attached. I could've made it work but we weren't a good fit and I wouldn't have been fully happy with him. Now he's in an excellent home that couldn't be any better. My female dog(mutt) has fear issues. I love her but wouldn't want any pups out of her for that reason. That's why I got her spayed, to prevent any accidents. (Not on my part but family if they were to ever watch her.) 

If I were you I'd keep saving up some money and find a good solid breeder who can match you up with a pup that will be what you want. Maybe you have a good fit, maybe you don't with this litter. Personally the inbreeding would turn me off. I know others say it's okay but it has inadvertently caused so many diseases to become prevalent. But yeah it sure is a quick way to set traits... so if there are any traits of Kody that bothered you keep in mind there's a high chance of seeing it.


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## Tulip

All I wanted to know was how bad the risk of health concerns are due to the inbreeding/linebreeding/whatever, and if it will affect the physical appearance of the pup. Obviously I know there are unknowns and risks, but I just wanted to know how bad are the risks

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## Tulip

The thing is... every problem I had with Kody could have been prevented if I was a better puppy owner. With this next one, I can learn from my mistakes and avoid the majority of the issues that I had with him. I know why I had so many problems with him- I got him when I was too young and too busy to properly raise and train him as a young puppy. 

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## Aly

Tulip said:


> All I wanted to know was how bad the risk of health concerns are due to the inbreeding/linebreeding/whatever, and if it will affect the physical appearance of the pup. Obviously I know there are unknowns and risks, but I just wanted to know how bad are the risks


Few, if any, can answer that question definitively because heritable diseases/disorders generally don't manifest that way. Some do, but most don't. (Same as in humans). By manifest I mean, that if a dog has the genetic encoding for a given characteristic (or disease) by which I mean dominant encoding, it will absolutely develop that characteristic (or disease).

Certainly, if heritable health issues are in the lines and the resultant pups are closely line or inbred, the odds go up and not in your favor. But, they are still odds. That's why I said previously that you often "don't know what you don't know." The more information you're lacking (and I'm including more than OFA scores here, for example), the less you know about the odds. That's why knowledgeable, educated and experienced breeders are key to expanding one's understanding of "the genetics" behind a particular pup and in the breed, in general --- especially if you aspire to become a breeder.

ETA. Per your opening statement in the above post. You originally asked if forum members would take the puppy; you asked that question again, later in the thread. My sense is that the majority said 'No,' for various, but often overlapping, reasons. You may not like the responses, but you did ask the question.


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## cliffson1

tc68 said:


> When you're in a public forum and you ask for people's opinion/advice, you've got to expect varying povs, especially ones that you don't like/agree with. Some people are more diplomatic and some are more blunt. I personally respond better to "blunt." If you have sensitive ears then maybe public forums and social media aren't the place to go for advice as I'm sure you're well aware how vicious people can be on social media.
> 
> She asked us for our opinions and the majority (not all) are saying don't get one from this litter and/or get it fixed. Like I said before, she's going to do what she wants. The chances that a pup from this litter will have health issues are greater than a "normal" pup. That doesn't mean it won't be healthy. It just means the likelihood of problems is greater...that's all. And that coupled with her not being able to afford the care of her previous dog is giving the rest of us pause and concern that she won't be able to do it for this next dog. It's a legitimate concern because what is the saying...the best predictor of the future is the past.
> 
> Anyway, to the OP...I wish you the best. Sincerely.


I missed where the chances that this pup will have health issues are greater than a normal pup....could you explain or clarify for me. I’m all for learning new things.


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## cliffson1

Tulip said:


> The thing is... every problem I had with Kody could have been prevented if I was a better puppy owner. With this next one, I can learn from my mistakes and avoid the majority of the issues that I had with him. I know why I had so many problems with him- I got him when I was too young and too busy to properly raise and train him as a young puppy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


Many people don’t realize that problems with a dog can be genetic( which can be passed to progeny), or created by owner/environment which won’t be passed to progeny. 
As a person who people pay good money to deal with these problems, I find far more instances of ownership/ environment being cause then genetics.


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## Tulip

cliffson1 said:


> I missed where the chances that this pup will have health issues are greater than a normal pup....could you explain or clarify for me. I’m all for learning new things.


I think they are referring to the fact that the pup's father is the pup's mother's father's half-brother

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## Tulip

cliffson1 said:


> Many people don’t realize that problems with a dog can be genetic( which can be passed to progeny), or created by owner/environment which won’t be passed to progeny.
> As a person who people pay good money to deal with these problems, I find far more instances of ownership/ environment being cause then genetics.


Exactly, I agree completely.

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## cliffson1

tc68 said:


> When you're in a public forum and you ask for people's opinion/advice, you've got to expect varying povs, especially ones that you don't like/agree with. Some people are more diplomatic and some are more blunt. I personally respond better to "blunt." If you have sensitive ears then maybe public forums and social media aren't the place to go for advice as I'm sure you're well aware how vicious people can be on social media.
> 
> She asked us for our opinions and the majority (not all) are saying don't get one from this litter and/or get it fixed. Like I said before, she's going to do what she wants. The chances that a pup from this litter will have health issues are greater than a "normal" pup. That doesn't mean it won't be healthy. It just means the likelihood of problems is greater...that's all. And that coupled with her not being able to afford the care of her previous dog is giving the rest of us pause and concern that she won't be able to do it for this next dog. It's a legitimate concern because what is the saying...the best predictor of the future is the past.
> 
> Anyway, to the OP...I wish you the best. Sincerely.


I agree with you about when you post to public forum, that’s why I asked in my initial post WHY would she post this question in a public forum. I also agree about the variance of opinions, and whether they are diplomatic or blunt or are liked or not liked, to me the issue is IF you pose this question in first place then Are you knowledgeable enough to know which answers are helpful or beneficial ?*♀


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## cliffson1

Tulip said:


> I think they are referring to the fact that the pup's father is the pup's mother's father's half-brother
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


I don’t think that’s it, because I have owned, bred, and researched these lines in the past and I don’t see where this would make this litter less than normal. ( Now I wouldn’t continue to inbreed on these dogs after this, but there seems to be enough genetic diversity for this to be sound) 
Of course there could be some specific knowledge about these lines I don’t know about, that would clearly make me change my mind.


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## Jax08

I am appalled that this young person, who abided by the contract of the breeder and rehome her dog when she couldn't afford to properly care for him is being attacked for doing what so many of us have urged others to do. For doing exactly what she should have done. 

Tulip...You don't owe any person here an explanation. You did the best you could to make sure Kody was cared for. 

And here's a lesson for you - this is exactly why I contact people privately if I have a question. There is only one person on this thread that gave you the information you needed. Contact him privately to talk.


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## Aly

cliffson1 said:


> Many people don’t realize that problems with a dog can be genetic( which can be passed to progeny), or created by owner/environment which won’t be passed to progeny.


Or, per recent epigenetics findings, environmental influences _can _become genetically encoded thereby making it possible for them to be passed on to subsequent generations...


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## Steve Strom

Hey Tulip, I'm only looking at the timing for you. I don't care about the pedigree or the dogs. You just had a pretty rough time. Are you sure you're past all that and in a position to handle something else, if something unfortunate were to happen again? Don't think you have to answer this, just think about it. How much would it take to put you back in a rough time?


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## GypsyGhost

This litter would be one I would personally pass on, because the dogs are not likely to be the type of dog I enjoy. That does not mean they would not be right for you. But I prefer higher drives than you would maybe get from this. I’m certainly not an expert in knowing which dogs and lines are know for throwing good hips, but I will say that, after looking through OFA, there are some questionable hip scores for dogs not directly in the pedigree (siblings and offspring to dogs in the pedigree), so for me, I don’t know that I would roll the dice on that. But fall down the OFA rabbit hole yourself and make your own decisions on that. Genetics of course play a huge roll in hips, but how a litter is raised, and how each puppy is raised effects the outcome of hips as well. When I am looking for a dog, I want to give myself the best chance possible of choosing one that will be able to compete in various dog sports with me, and most of them are demanding on the body. I have a dog has mild hip dysplasia and it is costly and not the most fun thing to deal with. If you were looking into getting into IPO/IGP with this puppy, you might have a difficult road ahead of you. Dog sports are hard enough when you have a dog that should do well in them, with enough drive. If that is absolutely not your main goal, and you feel comfortable with the health of the lines, that’s your call. Good luck with whatever you choose!


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## GypsyGhost

But as for the line breeding, that is not an automatic no for me. I have a dog of a different breed that has a 2-3 linebreeding on a dog that, from all accounts, is phenomenal and throws great hips. If you trust that the breeder knows what they are doing, and really understands what traits they might get, I don’t see a problem with it. FWIW, my dog has been very healthy so far, and is turning out to be exactly what his breeders told me they expected.


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## Muskeg

OP- you responsibly rehomed your dog. Absolutely no issue with that from me! 

If you are financially and emotionally ready for a new pup, I wouldn't be turned off by the inbreeding, and I'd go off of the opinion of someone experienced with the pedigree (not me). There a lot tighter inbreedings in some malinois and sled dog lines. This isn't so tight that it really bothers me as long as any breeding offspring are outcrossed. 

I think you might be happy with what you get, and a pup is always a gamble anyway. The problems you had with Kody, can absolutely be a big part of inexperience with your first working GSD. 

These pups are here/coming no matter what. They'll need good homes. If you are ready and willing to provide one, I would support that decision. I don't see any red flags as far as health or temperament, personally. 

I'm not going to sit here and judge anyone. People might be pretty shocked at the actual lives of dogs in some of the "best" kennels. This is why I encourage puppy buyers to acually visit a facility or kennel before they get a dog. Lines and pedigrees and titles only give you a partial picture of the operation you are supporting.

In this case, it is a free pup from a dog the OP loved enough to give up for his health. I'm OK with that.


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## wolfy dog

Anther crucial element for a good pup, aside from genetics and good food, is finding out how the breeder raises the pups, how much time the mother is allowed with the pups and at wat time he releases them to the new owner etc.


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## Sabis mom

Everyone is in agreement that linebreeding, done by knowledgeable persons, sets traits that are desirable. But what no one seems to have addressed is that this was not done with knowledge. Close breedings also set or bring to the fore less desirable traits, _which is why only people who have the knowledge should do it!_ I may not have the knowledge of pedigrees that some do but I understand breeding and genetics. 

The OP has clarified that this rehoming was done with the breeders knowledge and support, which is great. I don't condemn you for rehoming, that's your choice. But 6 months is a very short time, and realistically the treatment for a UTI is on the cheap side of vet costs. Bloat, blockages, injuries, parvo can run you to tens of thousands really fast. 
Further you have clearly expressed an interest in breeding and competition. Is this really the right time, right dog or are you simply grasping at a pup from a dog you wish you still had? What I have been trying to convey all along is please for your sake, and your husbands and the puppies, be honest with yourself.


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## Tulip

Jax08 said:


> I am appalled that this young person, who abided by the contract of the breeder and rehome her dog when she couldn't afford to properly care for him is being attacked for doing what so many of us have urged others to do. For doing exactly what she should have done.
> 
> Tulip...You don't owe any person here an explanation. You did the best you could to make sure Kody was cared for.
> 
> And here's a lesson for you - this is exactly why I contact people privately if I have a question. There is only one person on this thread that gave you the information you needed. Contact him privately to talk.


Thank you for the advice! I did contact said person as soon as they offered and got excellent info . I will try to keep this lesson in mind in the future though as well. I had gotten kicked off a Yorkie forum when I was younger (10!!! Just trying to learn!!) just for asking questions, and people freaked out and thought I was some troll. That's the reason why I am so defensive when I feel as though I'm being attacked on dog forums, especially on one such as this one that I have actually learned a lot from. 

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## Tulip

Steve Strom said:


> Hey Tulip, I'm only looking at the timing for you. I don't care about the pedigree or the dogs. You just had a pretty rough time. Are you sure you're past all that and in a position to handle something else, if something unfortunate were to happen again? Don't think you have to answer this, just think about it. How much would it take to put you back in a rough time?


It would take quite a bit. Both my husband and I have saved up a lot of emergency funds in case anything goes wrong with our cars, pets (he has a kitten), jobs, etc., and we also both have gotten really great promotions that have helped us out tremendously. Thats the only reason I considered taking a puppy 

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## Tulip

GypsyGhost said:


> This litter would be one I would personally pass on, because the dogs are not likely to be the type of dog I enjoy. That does not mean they would not be right for you. But I prefer higher drives than you would maybe get from this. I’m certainly not an expert in knowing which dogs and lines are know for throwing good hips, but I will say that, after looking through OFA, there are some questionable hip scores for dogs not directly in the pedigree (siblings and offspring to dogs in the pedigree), so for me, I don’t know that I would roll the dice on that. But fall down the OFA rabbit hole yourself and make your own decisions on that. Genetics of course play a huge roll in hips, but how a litter is raised, and how each puppy is raised effects the outcome of hips as well. When I am looking for a dog, I want to give myself the best chance possible of choosing one that will be able to compete in various dog sports with me, and most of them are demanding on the body. I have a dog has mild hip dysplasia and it is costly and not the most fun thing to deal with. If you were looking into getting into IPO/IGP with this puppy, you might have a difficult road ahead of you. Dog sports are hard enough when you have a dog that should do well in them, with enough drive. If that is absolutely not your main goal, and you feel comfortable with the health of the lines, that’s your call. Good luck with whatever you choose!


Thank you for the response! I dont care to have a super high drive dog, just some moderate drive is fine for me. I dont care if we never make it too far into competitions, so this factor isnt a big deal for me . I would prefer more info on health testing, and I do wish the owners had health tested the female, but I'm not going to be as picky in a situation where I'm not paying a grand for a pup and not planning on breeding or taking her to nationals with.

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## Tulip

GypsyGhost said:


> But as for the line breeding, that is not an automatic no for me. I have a dog of a different breed that has a 2-3 linebreeding on a dog that, from all accounts, is phenomenal and throws great hips. If you trust that the breeder knows what they are doing, and really understands what traits they might get, I don’t see a problem with it. FWIW, my dog has been very healthy so far, and is turning out to be exactly what his breeders told me they expected.


Thank you for your opinion and anecdote! I am mostly just concerned with solely how the linebreeding could affect the litter. I have never done any research on it before and have always considered any close inbreeding "bad", but I know some breeders do it for a reason, so I was curious for info as to how bad it actually is.

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## Tulip

Muskeg said:


> OP- you responsibly rehomed your dog. Absolutely no issue with that from me!
> 
> If you are financially and emotionally ready for a new pup, I wouldn't be turned off by the inbreeding, and I'd go off of the opinion of someone experienced with the pedigree (not me). There a lot tighter inbreedings in some malinois and sled dog lines. This isn't so tight that it really bothers me as long as any breeding offspring are outcrossed.
> 
> I think you might be happy with what you get, and a pup is always a gamble anyway. The problems you had with Kody, can absolutely be a big part of inexperience with your first working GSD.
> 
> These pups are here/coming no matter what. They'll need good homes. If you are ready and willing to provide one, I would support that decision. I don't see any red flags as far as health or temperament, personally.
> 
> I'm not going to sit here and judge anyone. People might be pretty shocked at the actual lives of dogs in some of the "best" kennels. This is why I encourage puppy buyers to acually visit a facility or kennel before they get a dog. Lines and pedigrees and titles only give you a partial picture of the operation you are supporting.
> 
> In this case, it is a free pup from a dog the OP loved enough to give up for his health. I'm OK with that.


Thank you for your response! I will be making the 3 hour drive to pick up the pup myself, as I would like to visit Kody and meet Kilo as well

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## Jax08

I would highly advise you look into pet insurance. One blown ACL is 3500. A hip is up around 5k . Pay the $40/mth insurance and let your savings sit


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## selzer

I did not say, "even connect with" I said "connect well with", there is a difference. 

My questions are valid if blunt. If the old dog was not one that was manageable for you, why would you want a pup out of that dog? If the dog has a health problem that you could not manage, than why would you want a pup out of that dog? 

I agree that line breeding isn't necessarily a negative, but a 2-3 breeding out of dogs that were not put together with knowledge, but a supposed oops litter, where one of the dogs has a serious health issue that may or may not increase the likelihood of progeny having that issue. 

I haven't dealt with recurrent UTIs yet. So I don't know if that is a genetic problem. If there is than it's on both sides of the equation. And when that happens, you have a much better than average chance of having the same issue. 


The reason most of us shy away from close in-breeding is not because it causes problems, but if there are problems in the lines, (and all lines have problems), there is a better than average chance of those recessive genes coming out in the progeny. 


I don't have a problem rehoming healthy dogs. Rehoming dogs that have serious issues, in health or behavior is a little stickier for me. And when that person gets another dog, I want to know what changed? Tulip says that a lot of the behavioral issues are because she was young and busy and not equipped to handle the puppy properly. That sounds really honest, and when we see things honestly, we can make the changes necessary to have a better round with the next pup. 

When we do not ask hard questions, for fear of offending folks, then we do a disservice to everyone involved. To ourselves, to the pup, to the offended party, to people on the sidelines. No one has to answer these questions or justify themselves to us, who are we, but a bunch of anonymous people on the internet? But answering the questions for your own self and for the puppy. Maybe it's worth it for some of us to get the reputation of being the biggest horse's ass, if someone is able to answer those questions for themselves and avoid trouble.


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## Aly

selzer said:


> I haven't dealt with recurrent UTIs yet. So I don't know if that is a genetic problem. If there is than it's on both sides of the equation. And when that happens, you have a much better than average chance of having the same issue.



I've read a couple of studies indicating that, while recurrent UTIs _may _not be heritable, they're often symptomatic of structural or other problems (e.g., in the urethra, bladder, kidneys etc.) that _are heritable_. I'll rummage around later to see if I can find a couple of links to post.


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## cliffson1

Aly said:


> Or, per recent epigenetics findings, environmental influences _can _become genetically encoded thereby making it possible for them to be passed on to subsequent generations...


Please explain examples so we can see how this would apply to this situation....TY.


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## Tulip

Jax08 said:


> I would highly advise you look into pet insurance. One blown ACL is 3500. A hip is up around 5k . Pay the $40/mth insurance and let your savings sit


I'll look into it, thanks for the advice!

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## cliffson1

Sabis mom said:


> Everyone is in agreement that linebreeding, done by knowledgeable persons, sets traits that are desirable. But what no one seems to have addressed is that this was not done with knowledge. Close breedings also set or bring to the fore less desirable traits, _which is why only people who have the knowledge should do it!_ I may not have the knowledge of pedigrees that some do but I understand breeding and genetics.
> 
> The OP has clarified that this rehoming was done with the breeders knowledge and support, which is great. I don't condemn you for rehoming, that's your choice. But 6 months is a very short time, and realistically the treatment for a UTI is on the cheap side of vet costs. Bloat, blockages, injuries, parvo can run you to tens of thousands really fast.
> Further you have clearly expressed an interest in breeding and competition. Is this really the right time, right dog or are you simply grasping at a pup from a dog you wish you still had? What I have been trying to convey all along is please for your sake, and your husbands and the puppies, be honest with yourself.


Though I agree with you that knowledge is essential in linebreeding or inbreeding, more important is the dogs involved. After all, a knowledgeable breeder with genetically weak lines will not improve the litters with knowledge and an unknowing person with superior genetics will not lower the quality of litter because of their lack of knowledge. So in theory I agree that inbreeding should only be initiated by knowledgeable people, but fortunately in this specific case I fail to see where this breeding genetically poses anymore risks than the majority of breedings I see.


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## Jax08

Aly said:


> Or, per recent epigenetics findings, environmental influences _can _become genetically encoded thereby making it possible for them to be passed on to subsequent generations...





cliffson1 said:


> Please explain examples so we can see how this would apply to this situation....TY.


Actually - how about starting a new thread on that topic because that is super interesting.


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## cliffson1

Jax08 said:


> Actually - how about starting a new thread on that topic because that is super interesting.


I agree, because I would like to see how this would have practical application to this breeding in a negative way.


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## Sabis mom

cliffson1 said:


> Though I agree with you that knowledge is essential in linebreeding or inbreeding, more important is the dogs involved. After all, a knowledgeable breeder with genetically weak lines will not improve the litters with knowledge and an unknowing person with superior genetics will not lower the quality of litter because of their lack of knowledge. So in theory I agree that inbreeding should only be initiated by knowledgeable people, but fortunately in this specific case I fail to see where this breeding genetically poses anymore risks than the majority of breedings I see.


Except for the lack of health testing, or temperament testing or really much background at all on sire and dam. Paper is paper and while a knowledgeable person may make an educated guess about the gaps, that's not what happened here. 

I put hands on Buds siblings, half siblings, parents, parents siblings and grand parents. I can tell you that while some stuff was consistent, some came out of left field. I can also tell you that a health issue not seen in 5 generations reared it's ugly head in ONE litter, that was a repeat of a repeat. A temperament issue reared it's head 3 generations in with a cross that should have been fine, more then fine. So to say that because you know the lines it's all good may be a stretch. In experienced hands, perhaps but we are talking about a young person with limited experience and background who was already set up to fail once. 

A fair person would encourage the OP toward a sure(er) thing and perhaps offer to coach her towards that rather then egg her on toward something that could prove heartbreaking should this end badly. I already have an issue with the breeder who put the sire in her hands to start with.


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## cliffson1

Sabis mom said:


> Except for the lack of health testing, or temperament testing or really much background at all on sire and dam. Paper is paper and while a knowledgeable person may make an educated guess about the gaps, that's not what happened here.
> 
> I put hands on Buds siblings, half siblings, parents, parents siblings and grand parents. I can tell you that while some stuff was consistent, some came out of left field. I can also tell you that a health issue not seen in 5 generations reared it's ugly head in ONE litter, that was a repeat of a repeat. A temperament issue reared it's head 3 generations in with a cross that should have been fine, more then fine. So to say that because you know the lines it's all good may be a stretch. In experienced hands, perhaps but we are talking about a young person with limited experience and background who was already set up to fail once.
> 
> A fair person would encourage the OP toward a sure(er) thing and perhaps offer to coach her towards that rather then egg her on toward something that could prove heartbreaking should this end badly. I already have an issue with the breeder who put the sire in her hands to start with.


Where did I say because you know lines “all is good”? That’s ludicrous! And health issues are in every single line out there. In every litter there will be health issues or possibility of health issues surfacing. This narrative that something heartbreaking could come from this breeding moreso than any other breeding is deceiving at best. I have asked for what genetically would lead to the belief of high probability of “ heartbreaking” pup, besides the breeding wasn’t done in the dogmatic way that some believe is the only way to get good dog. Nobody is giving me concrete genetic things in these dogs bred( and I do think the pups will receive more genetic substance than people’s opinion on the rightness of this breeding, but I could be wrong&#55358;&#56631;*♀) that support the projections being made by some on this litter. I don’t believe this litter will have greater chances of heartbreaking pups because of the way they were conceived, actually I think that this litter will have as good if not better pups than a lot of litters by many so called reputable breeders today.
Lastly, because I think this breeding will produce normal results for the breed, in no way means I endorse the way the breeding was done in any aspect. But my comments are about this specific breeding and the potential for a nice puppy based on my experiences....this is what I thought the OP was seeking, actually she acknowledged that the breeding was accidental and not planned, nor did I hear them condone it. But the opinions I saw on the probable quality on this specific litter based on little or no knowledge of the dogs, lines, and what they produce; and the subsequent projection of health, temperament, deficiencies again based on little or no knowledge of these lines I thought was unfair. Was the breeding planned by knowledge experienced breeders ....NO, does that in and of itself make this a heartbreak litter moreso than other breedings? I don’t see it, unless like I said the one parent had crippling or severe hips or elbows.
The reality to my way of thinking is that this breeding is extremely lucky in the sense that it happened with dogs of good lines, and with little knowledge or understanding of the lines, or planning by the owners and this mostly leads to greater chance of health, temperament and quality being lessened......but I just don’t see it this specific time.....again but I could be wrong.


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## cliffson1

I have finished on this topic. I know my thoughts are misconstrued, misunderstood, or unacceptable to many, I just wanted to give what I see based on my familiarity with these lines/dogs. Thanks, for indulging me....Peace!


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## GSDchoice

I just want to second or third the suggestion of Pet Insurance. 

You don't want to be hit by a surprise event - what if your pup also winds up needing recurring UTI treatments for some reason ... owe thousands of dollars...and have to rehome again...

Pet Insurance was a smart suggestion!!! 

If I had rehomed the pup's dad due to expensive health issues - there is no way I would take his pup without pet insurance.


_( PS Recurring UTIs is indeed an inheritable condition. I have gotten many UTIs and they told me that it was because my urethra was shorter than normal. My eldest girl has already been treated for UTIs a few times. So, that's how it is for humans...)_


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## Tulip

cliffson1 said:


> I have finished on this topic. I know my thoughts are misconstrued, misunderstood, or unacceptable to many, I just wanted to give what I see based on my familiarity with these lines/dogs. Thanks, for indulging me....Peace!


Thank you so much for everything you have contributed!

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## selzer

I suggested pet insurance to the folks that I gave the runt of my last litter to. She may have just been smaller and it was a large litter, so less time on the teat so to speak, but if there is something wrong with her, which is possible, with the insurance, they will not have to make their decision because of the lack of money. And since that incontinence issue is on both sides, and may be caused by a structural thing, that could be heritable, I think it makes sense to go ahead with insurance.


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## Tulip

selzer said:


> I suggested pet insurance to the folks that I gave the runt of my last litter to. She may have just been smaller and it was a large litter, so less time on the teat so to speak, but if there is something wrong with her, which is possible, with the insurance, they will not have to make their decision because of the lack of money. And since that incontinence issue is on both sides, and may be caused by a structural thing, that could be heritable, I think it makes sense to go ahead with insurance.


I will absolutely be looking into pet insurance, it definitely sounds like a great idea! Where is the incontinence issue on both sides though? Do you know dogs who have had it on Kilo's side?

Also, i just wanted to say to who ever said earlier about "Kody being in a diaper in his photo on pedigreedatabase": that picture is from years ago when he was only 1 or 2 and had a bad marking problem in the house, so I had him on a doggie diaper in the house so that I could correct the marking without sacrificing the furniture and carpet.

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## selzer

Tulip said:


> I will absolutely be looking into pet insurance, it definitely sounds like a great idea! Where is the incontinence issue on both sides though? Do you know dogs who have had it on Kilo's side?
> 
> Also, i just wanted to say to who ever said earlier about "Kody being in a diaper in his photo on pedigreedatabase": that picture is from years ago when he was only 1 or 2 and had a bad marking problem in the house, so I had him on a doggie diaper in the house so that I could correct the marking without sacrificing the furniture and carpet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



Maybe I misunderstood, I thought the sire was also grandsire to the dam or something like that? So an incontinence issue in the sire would also be on the other side. Sorry, going back to look at the pedigrees again.


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## selzer

Ok, so 2-3, the sire of the sire is the grandsire of the dam. So the issues with the sire would have had to come from his sire's side to have the double whammy, and I don't know if that is the case or not.


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## selzer

It is true thought that all lines have health concerns within them. So when you breed this closely the likelihood of recessives coming through is higher, because the number of genes distributed is less. For example, if the sire is a carrier for MegE, from his sire's side, then the dam may or may not be a carrier, if she is, then that litter is probably going to have 25 percent affected, fifty percent carrier, and 25% clear or something like that. It gets uglier if you breed an affected dog, something like 50/50 affected/carrier. LOL, maybe I need to get out my genetics book again.


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## cliffson1

selzer said:


> Ok, so 2-3, the sire of the sire is the grandsire of the dam. So the issues with the sire would have had to come from his sire's side to have the double whammy, and I don't know if that is the case or not.


And this is what I meant earlier about folks making assumptions or declarations that are not supported or known by the genetics or the facts stated. ( I’m speaking generally not specifically to Selzer )
We don’t help people by giving them advice based on our personal convictions unless these convictions are supported by facts or minimally anecdotal evidence to support them. But unless challenged then these statements stand and folks who are trying to learn ( take it as gospel ) and go about educating others on the original Statements they read that may or may not be accurate!


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## selzer

cliffson1 said:


> And this is what I meant earlier about folks making assumptions or declarations that are not supported or known by the genetics or the facts stated. ( I’m speaking generally not specifically to Selzer )
> We don’t help people by giving them advice based on our personal convictions unless these convictions are supported by facts or minimally anecdotal evidence to support them. But unless challenged then these statements stand and folks who are trying to learn ( take it as gospel ) and go about educating others on the original Statements they read that may or may not be accurate!


But there is a reason that Germany stopped allowing a 2-3 breeding. I am trying to be at least 3-3. But folks sometimes breed my dogs 2-3 on each other, and there is a danger in that because the recessives will come out at a higher rate. There is a lot to consider, not just in-breeding, but back massing.


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## cliffson1

selzer said:


> But there is a reason that Germany stopped allowing a 2-3 breeding. I am trying to be at least 3-3. But folks sometimes breed my dogs 2-3 on each other, and there is a danger in that because the recessives will come out at a higher rate. There is a lot to consider, not just in-breeding, but back massing.


I agree! Like I said earlier, this isn’t blueprint for breeding program,( lol) , just that this specific breeding doesn’t appear by genetics to have abnormal concerns for health or temperament as some suggested. Actually, I would never advise someone to approach things this way, but once done let’s look at the reality as opposed to the feelings about it!


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## wolfstraum

it is 2-2 that is not allowed. 2-3 is not banned. I do think that anyone doing a 2-3 should truly KNOW the dog and it's family. I have done one, I know the dog and all it's progeny and grandprogeny. I am thrilled beyond belief with the results and will repeat the cross with the same male and a sibling to the dam.


Lee


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## Tulip

cliffson1 said:


> I agree! Like I said earlier, this isn’t blueprint for breeding program,( lol) , just that this specific breeding doesn’t appear by genetics to have abnormal concerns for health or temperament as some suggested. Actually, I would never advise someone to approach things this way, but once done let’s look at the reality as opposed to the feelings about it!


Thank you! I agree completely, especially with the last statement that it's already been done. They are choosing to go through with the pregnancy and none of us are going to change that. 

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## Tulip

wolfstraum said:


> it is 2-2 that is not allowed. 2-3 is not banned. I do think that anyone doing a 2-3 should truly KNOW the dog and it's family. I have done one, I know the dog and all it's progeny and grandprogeny. I am thrilled beyond belief with the results and will repeat the cross with the same male and a sibling to the dam.
> 
> 
> Lee


Wow, this whole time everyone has been saying the wrong thing anyway lol. I also agree that the breeder should know the dogs and lines really well, but as cliffson said, this particular breeding has already happened, so, what are you gonna do? 

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## Steve Strom

Tulip said:


> Wow, this whole time everyone has been saying the wrong thing anyway lol. I also agree that the breeder should know the dogs and lines really well, but as cliffson said, this particular breeding has already happened, so, what are you gonna do?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


The reason I say treat it like a rescue Tulip, is when I look for a pure bred dog, especially for something specific, like you mentioned IPO, I'm looking to play the odds and keep them in my favor. Particular dogs bred for a reason, a plan. Even then, it doesn't always work out. If you keep in mind that this pup didn't come from any intentional thought or plan, you'll avoid one reason to be disappointed and hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised instead. 

Cliffson mentioned something else. Minimally anecdotal evidence. I'll probably forget to credit him when I use that, so I'll just say thanks now.


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## wolfstraum

Tulip said:


> Wow, this whole time everyone has been saying the wrong thing anyway lol. I also agree that the breeder should know the dogs and lines really well, but as cliffson said, this particular breeding has already happened, so, what are you gonna do?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk



????? what do you mean - what am I going to do?????? There is a thread on the one puppy who is in SAR home, I have one, the co-breeder has one...2 others in SAR oriented homes, and 2 others in IPO (or what ever it is now) homes, one with a 20 year handler who has titled 3 dogs already....impressive impressive ability on these pups.

If I last long enough, I am already looking for male with "clean" pedigree (my preferences) for this girl when she grows up...


Lee


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## Tulip

wolfstraum said:


> ????? what do you mean - what am I going to do?????? There is a thread on the one puppy who is in SAR home, I have one, the co-breeder has one...2 others in SAR oriented homes, and 2 others in IPO (or what ever it is now) homes, one with a 20 year handler who has titled 3 dogs already....impressive impressive ability on these pups.
> 
> If I last long enough, I am already looking for male with "clean" pedigree (my preferences) for this girl when she grows up...
> 
> 
> Lee


Sorry, not you specifically lol, I just meant it as a rhetorical question as in the puppies are coming and none of us can do anything about it lol

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## lhczth

Lee, it was changed a few years ago. They no longer allow 2-3.


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## Tulip

lhczth said:


> Lee, it was changed a few years ago. They no longer allow 2-3.


Can anyone post a source on this so we can see what the facts are? I dont mind doing the research but it'll have to wait til I get off work later tonight 

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## wolfstraum

lhczth said:


> Lee, it was changed a few years ago. They no longer allow 2-3.


Oh well - thanks!


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## Walt Watson

Inbreeding is a bad problem and trying to avoid it is the best solution. I wish you all the best.


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