# Been thinking about chiropractic...



## LisaT

Been thinking about Kramer's experiences with the chiropractor, and his subsequent fall. 

In general, been thinking about chiropractic and seniors, including human seniors. My folks have prompted these thoughts, and Jean's recent post about Kramer in a health thread made me think about the dogs.

Jean, I hope you don't completely regret taking Kramer in, I would feel bad. I feel bad that he didn't get the relief from it that I hoped he would.

My mom has developed osteoporosis, and it's been interesting to watch our chiropractor adjust what he does as we find out more about her condition. (Mom and I go in and get adjusted together by the same chiro.) 

My Dad should have started seeing a chiropractor years ago but never has. I've wondered if, starting at a late date, is better than no care at all. Our chiro made a comment the other day that the problem with some chiro's is that, when working on adults, they worry too much about "making them straight". He concentrates on making them more mobile, working on their problem areas, accepting that the body has made compensation, etc. He's quite a wonderful chiropractor.

I am fortunate with the dogs -- we have an equally wonderful chiropractor. Often she does not "adjust" them, but mobilizes them, and as they age, I know that she will know how to modify her adjustments. Indy started getting adjustments when she was about 4 years old, about 7 years ago.

I'm curious, for those whose dogs have recieved chiropractic care, at what age did they start? For those dogs that started later, did you still see benefit?


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## luanne

I haven't taken my dogs to a Chiropractor but only because I didn't realize that there were doggie chiropractors. My trainer was telling me about her dog chiropractor and what a huge difference it made in her dogs and some other dogs in class. 

Gracie will be 5 next Spring and I haven't really noticed much of a *need* for her to go but I think I'm going to take her in to get checked out next year. 

Lu


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## LisaT

I know that the results are better with earlier, regular maintenance. Keeping mobility of the joints does help slowing the onset/progression arthritis and other problems from settling in. 

If you end up going to one, definitely report back to us


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## LJsMom

Lady Jane started chiropractic at age 12 years 10 months. She's had 5 visits since 9/30. It's helped quite a bit. However, like Kramer, she fell down the stairs recently. Now she won't go down. I bought her a Ruff Wear Webmaster harness last week and it is just wonderful. Great for stairs and walks. LJ's next appointment is tomorrow.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Awww! Lady Jane! I didn't realize she fell down the stairs. I am really glad she likes the harness (you too). 

I liked the acupuncture for him and feel that for an older dog who has never had any adjustments and has a big old fused spine or other type of ortho issue that it might be enough and be the safest way to handle things. 

My human chiropractor is very cautious and also very good about explaining the limits to what she can and cannot do. 

With the chiro, the vet didn't do any major adjustments that I could tell but I think that with anything when you are used to being one way, and then are another-either good or bad-the adjustments you have to make are pretty big. However, we can know that for ourselves. Ooh, I feel loose today and that feels good but I will make sure as I walk across this icy patch I will tense up. 

For our dogs they don't have that kind of thought process and can't think through the idea of adjusting their movements and body, they just react and their body responds. 

I think also you are dealing with muscle memory and how a dog is used to doing things, which may need to be different with the adjustments made. 

So for a young dog with no major issues, just getting a tune up, who has a body that can adjust quickly to things, who doesn't have a body/movement habit ingrained, and who makes a movement mistake, they will bounce back quickly. 

A senior with the same tune up who makes a movement mistake may not be able to self correct as easily and is not going to have the same resilience no matter how much good stuff we give them or do for them, no matter how active they are. 

We don't! 

I also think that when they feel good, they do more and that increases their likelihood of injury. Kramer felt good enough to run and jump down the stairs, even though he was being tethered for guidance. This is why the whole idea of a dog self-limiting their exercise after a surgery doesn't work and why dogs have to be crated or leashed-they don't get the concept of be careful as long as they feel good. 

I do think I should have listened to his regular vet on the chiro and just gone with the acupuncture, after he got that knot out of his neck.







But at the time I was going with results and not looking at the big picture-that any treatment, supplement, medication has to be broken down to see the impact in the positive and negative it can have. And that was my choice. 

I still do Reiki with him as needed and watch after that too because he gets a little wound up. 

I have noticed that with continued increased mandated crate rest (from none to daily) and the use of the air mattress and the harness for stairs, Kramer has increased mobility, flexibility and is (knock wood) better than he was before we went, so in the long run, having to find better solutions benefitted him greatly. 

I just realize now that there is an entire thought process that has to go along with the treatment, just like a surgery, and I wasn't doing that. So I think that anytime any of these forms of treatment are suggested, that people note that they are just as serious a medical intervention, with risks and benefits, as any other. Particularly with pets with existing conditions-or conditions that may not even be known. 

Or maybe Kramer is an anomaly!


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN.....I just realize now that there is an entire thought process that has to go along with the treatment, just like a surgery, and I wasn't doing that. So I think that anytime any of these forms of treatment are suggested, that people note that they are just as serious a medical intervention, with risks and benefits, as any other. Particularly with pets with existing conditions-or conditions that may not even be known.
> 
> Or maybe Kramer is an anomaly!


Certainly there is no other like Kramer









Thanks Jean for the feedback.

Good point about the thought process. And I guess that was what started me thinking about this. I was thinking about my parents for awhile, and then when I saw a post recently about Kramer, it was very similar.

I think that that thought process also includes a "big picture" evaluation of not only the treatment, but how everything is fitting together. Much like you had to do coming up with these alternative methods that have helped. I'm so glad he's doing well with his routine. 

Everyone here knows that I'm a huge fan of chiropractic. But like anything, it needs to be used properly, and it's good to refine the parameters, particularly on a senior board.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: LJsMomLady Jane started chiropractic at age 12 years 10 months. She's had 5 visits since 9/30. It's helped quite a bit. However, like Kramer, she fell down the stairs recently. Now she won't go down. I bought her a Ruff Wear Webmaster harness last week and it is just wonderful. Great for stairs and walks. LJ's next appointment is tomorrow.


Oh, I'm sorry about the fall. I swear the next house we buy has to be a one story -- I can't tell you how many times Max has fallen on our stairs, only because he is a doofus. I can't imagine how treacherous they will be as he gets older !!

Great news that the chiropractor is helping. Hope it continues!! Our K9 chiro, being a chiro for dogs and humans, doesn't do a ton of dogs, but a respectable number. I hear success stories all the time from her with senior dogs. Of course she also told me about the woman with some little 5 lb dog that told the chiro, "just show me what you did and I'll take care of her at home"....can you imagine someone with no experience trying to do that? The woman never returned.....


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Obviously







I was thinking about it a lot too. Thanks for posting this! 

Hopefully people can fill in their dogs' names in all these different examples. 

Again, I think it did make me more aware of things, including that Kramer cannot be allowed to do as he wishes in terms of activity. Period. That I need to insist on crate rest or he will move around all day keeping track of everything until he's exhausted. No therapy will work when a dog works himself so hard-now that part of his daily job is to rest, he's much better off. I keep his Adequan appointments closer together too and that is helping. 

I don't think that the chiropractic was the cause of the injury directly. And he just finished running away from me this morning repeatedly-getting almost close enough for me to grab his harness, and then turning around and taking off.









And another part of this though is the reality that I have to face-that Kramer can't turn or pivot, or even walk without some little stumbles from time to time and that is a whole problem entirely!


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## LisaT

I have to confess, people are so reluctant to use chiropractic, that I did think twice before posting this!! But it's about responsible use, and what's best for the dogs, and how every dog is different......

I"m not sure I would have clued in on that "mandatory rest" period. It makes complete sense, particularly when he's part of a pack of many!!


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## WiscTiger

There are instances with humans and Chiropractic adjustments where the patient feels worse before they feel better. My Chiro is very careful with elderly people for several reasons, fusing and the bones are more brittle than when you are younger. So just wondering if many in some conditions in dogs that they could seem/feel worse before they would get better.

Val


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## LisaT

That did happen to me when I first started. Mom too. With Indy, she pranced out of there like she never had after her first time, but then was achy later. Not for too long though. With Max, I never saw any achiness, but he is pretty stoic about those things.


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## LJsMom

LJ showed improvement right away with a combination of chiro/acupuncture. It was amazing. Her doctor says that results like that aren't typical.


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## LJsMom

Wooly Bear would follow me around all day. The only way I could get him to rest was if I laid down with him. We used to have nap time. 

LJ prefers to sit on her couch and bark at all the evil-doer kitties.


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## LJsMom

LJ went to the chiropractor yesterday. The vet been to a 4-day veterinary neurology conference and had some notes on GSDs that presented similarly to LJ. So, really long appointment. She trotted out of there fine - but last night she was dragging her left foot a bit. I'm going to call the office to see what they recommend. In the meantime, what would you fine folks do?


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## LisaT

Any interesting info that your chiro had to share?

Do you think the chiro adjusted in a new way, different than previous adjustments? Sometimes, if it's an area of chronic problems, it takes a couple of adjustments to get at everything. I find that Indy's foot dragging (you can hear the nails scrape when she walks frequently), often comes from her back area, where the lumbar meets the sacrum area. I haven't figured out a good "do it at home" treatment for that yet. Is she any better today?


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## LJsMom

She's better this afternoon. We went for a walk and she trotted right along.

She did a lot of work on LJ's lumbar/sacrum area. The vet said that a lot of older GSDs will have spastic front end and crossed rear legs. She did a lot of arm crossing over LJ and felt around her face and head quite a bit.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: LJsMom.She did a lot of work on LJ's lumbar/sacrum area. .


Okay, that makes sense about the foot. I"ve also found that that area can cause walking with a stiff knee.




> Originally Posted By: LJsMom....The vet said that a lot of older GSDs will have spastic front end and crossed rear legs. She did a lot of arm crossing over LJ and felt around her face and head quite a bit.


That's kinda interesting. Max doesn't cross his legs, but does stand with rear paws too close together.

I'm glad she is better -- it's nice when they have that good trot.


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## natalie559

Penny is 4 1/2 and has seen the chiropractor twice now. She has been diagnosed with lumbosacral spondylosis. 

Upon palpitating Penny's back the vet said she was *very* stiff along her spine and that this causes the lumbosacral joint to overcompensate and that then the spondylosis forms to stabilizes the overactive joint. Feeling Penny she said her back end was all messed up and tight and that it had to be painful for her.

Her goal is to reduce the stiffness along Penny's spine and hope that this increased movement with slow to stop the development of the spondylosis. She is doing this through adjustments and having me give her a vibrating massage along her spine to wake up the nerves.

At the last appointment she used infrared laser light to stimulate her acupuncture points. Anyone tried this? She said acupuncture might help, but that we would have to work up to that and that she wanted Penny to know her better first.

I haven't noticed any differences in Penny yet, for better or worse.

One thing I have noticed and commented to the vet on is that Penny has been holding her tail to the right. She wasn't sure why but thought it may be due to the sacral area and wants me to keep an eye on it for changes. 

Penny drags her feet sometimes too and I hadn't mentioned that to the vet. So you all think its related?


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## LJsMom

LJ has the same diagnosis and I suspect that the feet dragging and tail thing are connected. After LJ's first appointment her tail started wagging like crazy. It had been off to the side and hardly ever went up. At the first few appointments, the vet used a laser light instead of needles. I don't know if they did anything. I do know that daily exercise really helps.


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## angelaw

Duchess has advanced spondylosis. Diagnosed at the age of 8, now 12.5

It would make sense that the tail would eventually possibly go off to one side or the other. If you look at duchess's xray you'd see where the spinal cord is being compressed and where it will eventually seal itself off and render her crippled. I do know her rear is much lower than it used to be just looking at her from the side, and I think she is starting to lose feeling as well.


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## LisaT

> Originally Posted By: natalie559....I haven't noticed any differences in Penny yet, for better or worse.....


Wow, that seems surprising.

Everything else that you posted above, does sound related, the tail, the foot, etc.

With Indy, she has periods of time where the tail is held strangley -- it might tend to the side, very stiffly, for months, then go back to her happy wag, and sometimes it will be incredibly tucked. All of those things are related to her neurological issues. An adjustment will help, but sometimes it isn't lasting. She hasn't had "a spell" of stiff tail in awhile.

I am a **huge** fan of CMO for those stiff muscles and back, only because they it helps Indy so much. It seems to somehow lubricate the muscles. I sometimes get muscle pain where it hurts around my ribs to take a breath (inflammation of the something or other), and the CMO helps that quite a bit, and very quickly.

http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-True-CMO-Cetyl-Myristoleate


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## natalie559

> Originally Posted By: LisaT
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted By: natalie559....I haven't noticed any differences in Penny yet, for better or worse.....
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that seems surprising.
Click to expand...

Well I think it has to do with the symptoms being so mild to begin with and that we have only been twice. What brought all this on was that she was showing mild discomfort with an occasional yelp when I lifted her. 

I think for us it is more about preventive care. 

Maybe once she is loosened more I'll notice a difference. Not sure what I would be looking for though other than the tail foot thing. 

And she does wag her tail, a lot, she just holds it a little to the right when walking/running or just about anytime she is not wagging it.

What dose of the CMO do you use? I am just not sure if I stand to give Penny any more pills. She takes more supplements than a grand ma


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## LJsMom

Lisa, do you give the Jarrow CMO daily? LJ took it every day for 8 weeks. Then for one week out of each month. Should I be giving it to her daily? I really do think it helps.


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## LisaT

I've given it daily for several bottles, and then stopped. Now that Indy is older, I think I need to give it to her more regularly, only I haven't figured out the schedule.

I never thought about the one week out of the month -- I'll have to think about whether that would work the best. 

Natalie, I know what you mean with the pills. When I start Indy up, I give her 3 pills a day, and she is 33 lbs. Typically I really need to knock down her overactive immune system and some swelling.


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## JenM66

> Originally Posted By: natalie559At the last appointment she used infrared laser light to stimulate her acupuncture points. Anyone tried this? She said acupuncture might help,


Gracie has been diagnosed with lumbosacral instability (I think it's very similar if not the same as spondylosis) at not quite 3 years of age - also DJD. She has had 2 chiropractic adjustments. After the first she was a different dog - the ortho bent her tail all the way up onto her back, then put it all the way under her body. He then took both hind legs with one hand and lifted them up. He did some other work with rotation of the hips. She had 2 sessions of physical therapy - where the laser was used - didn't find that to make a huge difference. She's had 5 acupuncture treatments and is acting like a 6 month old. I highly recommend giving it a try - it can't hurt. The holstic vet we went to said you do 5 weekly visits then go to every other week and eventually go to monthly. We are able to skip right to monthly since Gracie has had such great results. I couldn't be happier with her results. I hope all our seniors can get relief too. I hope Penny is better, I think of her often as she and Gracie present with similar symtoms.


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## LisaT

Yay for Gracie!!


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## Maedchen

My Lab got her first adjustment when she got injured after hiking- she was over 6 at the time. We did a couple more adjustments- every couple weeks whenever I saw her in need of it. I haven't done any adjustments for over 6 months now, and she will be 9 soon. I massage her myself regularly which prob. helps too.

I went to a chiropractor with my children (2 legged) regularly for some time. He does network spinal analysis and I've seen great improvement in them. IMO, everyone can benefit from chiropractic even without obvious symptoms, bc we are all "damaged" more or less.

I've seen some very dramatic improvements in older dogs who literally had to be carried in for treatment, but walked out themselves afterwards.


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## luanne

Update: I had need to take Gracie to the chiropractor. Today actually. In agility class on Friday night she was a little 'off'. Not really running the course with any type of gusto. At first we thought she was nervious about the new obnoxious boxer in our class. Then I looked closer and she was favoring her right hind leg just a bit. So we quit doing jumps for the night and she rested over the weekend. 

Monday night was agility skills class. She was fine for the first 5 minutes of class then she started refusing obstacles. 

I called the vet today and made an appointment. He watched her walk and then did his kenetic thing he does (which is really cool to watch), adjusted her neck, had me walk her again and said that there was marked improvement. 

It had to do with something high in her neck that threw her spine off and then caused her misstep/stinger. She has to rest for 48 hours and we can do jumps in class on Friday night again. 

This cost me $40. If I would have taken her to the vet it would have been a visit charge, x-rays, meds and 4-6 weeks of rest. 

If this *fixes* her, I'm sold.

Lu


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