# Importance schutzhund titles



## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

I am researching on gsd breeders in India for my next gsd. I was happy to find a breeder with good success in Indian sieger shows in recent past. His German import dogs also come with very good schutzhund titled dogs in their pedigree.

I believed that this will increase the chance of getting show quality dog with good working ability.

However I am informed by the same breeder that unfortunately in Indian show circles schutzhund titles in the pedigree are not given any importance. 

Moreover he told me that even after having schutzhund titled dogs in the pedigree there is only 50 percent chance of getting a dog with good working ability as a guard dog and that lot depends on training.

The breeder may or may not be 100 percent correct. But what I respect is that instead of bragging or advertising about his dogs' pedigree he chose to inform me what be knew (even risking disappointing a prospective customer)

However I really want to know is it really that much of a gamble even after having so many titled dogs in the pedigree? If so they why waste money after pedigree?

Best
Santanu


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

A puppy is always a gamble.


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

TEZPUR1976 said:


> I am researching on gsd breeders in India for my next gsd. I was happy to find a breeder with good success in Indian sieger shows in recent past. His German import dogs also come with very good schutzhund titled dogs in their pedigree.
> 
> I believed that this will increase the chance of getting show quality dog with good working ability.
> 
> ...


Pedigree guarantees the sire and dam are capable of working. In Germany, show dogs all have to be health screened and titled before they are allowed to breed. That said, titles can and have been bought by show trainers for some dogs so it isn't really an accurate measure of working ability unless you know the breeder and seen the dogs work themselves.

If you're getting a puppy with untitled parents, you certainly do not know what level of working ability the parents had and your puppy may potentially have. Also, as stated, there are no untitled German dogs as studs or bitches, these untitled dogs probably come from somewhere else and may not have the same amount of testing done on them before breeding.

Of course, if you trust your breeder and his experience, sometimes getting a untitled dog may not be so bad. My pup doesn't have parents with titles. But I've seen the dogs my breeder has produced and they're mostly active police and military dogs with proven working ability as well as those performing at Schh trials. So chances are my pup will come with some working ability.

Also, if you're that concerned with working ability, why not get a working line dog instead of show line?


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Unfortunately there are hardly any breeder in India who specialize in working line, except perhaps one kennel in India (far away from my place). However this particular breeder does not seem to participate in shows. So it is really difficult to judge what he/she is breeding.

The reputed gsd kennels in India aim to breed dogs to participate in siger type shows only. In the absence of schutzhund type competition in India, it is really difficult to trust some one who claims only to breed protection dogs without showing them to any creditable judge. Ultimately getting a dog to attack should not be the only goal, right. 

So I decided to go for a well known breeder with credibility and whose dogs have schutzhund titles in their pedigree. That way i may have a pup from well tempered parents with no faults, also also a decent chance of having guarding abilities. That was my thinking.

Best
Santanu


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

is looking outside of your country a possibility for finding a pup?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

In your case the answer is test the parents yourself. The breeder that is unwilling to let you do this is not worth buying from.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Thanks,
What type test are helpful to determine guarding ability in an adult dog?


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

You need a pro to read the dog, alot of dummies do everything all wrong. You cannot go and judge a dog for yourself without alot of experience.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

True, but still are there some signs which a novice signs of a guard dog which a novice can detect if those qualities are present in the dog?

I can share one my experiences of encountering a guard dog. 

I have a five month old gsd pup named Duke. When i was in the process of getting duke from a pet shop in my home town, I insisted that i want to see both the dam and the sire. Duke's mother Tuffy was owned by the breeder, but his father Leo is owned by another person. Both parties agreed to show their dogs.

The evening i went Leo (Dukes father) remains a memorable experience till date. The owner was not present at that time. I rang him, and he told me that he has already informed his mother who will show me the dog. They live in the 1st floor of a building. The moment i entered the staircase, i heard deep a growl (very hard to explain but i will never forget). I stood in front of a grilled gate (thankfully locked from inside).

Moments later a gery and black colored wolf like figure emerged and with several deep bark came rush towards the gate. I had to gather lot of courage to hold my ground.
I made an attempt to make friendly gesture towards him, and approach the gate. I was immediately cautioned by Leo (by growling and barking) that it was not a smart idea. His bark was deep, and look was confident. He was not one of those dogs who would go on barking and barking.

Leo made it very clear that if i stood quitely and did nothing he will not harm me, but not friendly gesture are welcome. Then came the lard lady. Smilingly she said i was one of the very few person who had the guts to stand near the gate. I was amazed to see the change in the dog as soon as the lady came. He moved away from the gate and relaxed few yards away keeping his eye fixed on me. I talked to the lady, leo was absolutely quiet.
Then i requested the lady whether i could take Leo's photo. She called him, leo immediately came and posed for photo with in a foot away from me. Finally I thanked her before leaving i tried to make a friendly gesture to the duke. Again i was cautioned be shard bark that "donot even think about it".

I am not expert in dogs, but i will never forget that experience. 

Best
Santanu


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

How did he make it clear?

Here's the issue with your situation...most people would be really stupid to actually go at a dog that is growling/barking at them. So in 99.99% of situations, a dog that can bark at someone, will keep that person away. So until someone actually GOES AT this dog, with an intent to harm it, you won't see what the dog actually does.

What your situation describes is what most novices see, and what most people want to see. A dog that comes forward, barks, does something to scare away a person. No one is really going to test to see if that dog will bite or not…because if it will, well, that’s kind of painful. There are other signs in the dog’s body language, that I can almost guarantee you missed which would’ve told someone that “knows” what the dog’s true intentions were. Those signs are very small, very particular, and not something a novice that hasn’t seen countless dogs either present or not present those things would be able to notice…especially in a high stress situation with a dog coming at them.

I’m not saying the dog wasn’t a good guard dog, but it’s almost impossible to tell from a story over the internet, and it’s almost as hard from just seeing him react to a neutral/friendly person. You weren’t a real threat, you didn’t present a threat after the dog reacted, so the dog won without having to take it to the next level. It is unknown what his reaction would be, if you did take it to that level.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Santanu,

I would suggest you contact Ajay Singh in California. His kennel is vom Patiala. While Ajay is here in the US, he is from India, has family and I believe also dog friends in India, and travels back to India regularly. He may know of some good GSD breeders in India that he could refer you to.

Chris


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

what are the signs? honest question. I love this kind of stuff


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Dear Chris,
Please give me the contact of Mr. Ajay Singh and oblige.

Now coming back to the issues raised by "martemchik" I fully agree to what he has to say.

But let us just for a moment pretend that we are not talking about Dogs rather want to appoint a good watchman to guard my gates. I want him to be brave and trustworthy for sure. i will expect from him is the following

1. For any suspicious activity should raise an alarm, and alert us.

2. Do not allow unknown people to enter the campus.

3. Should be loyal, and trustworthy so that we can leave our kids home safely with him.

Whether he is an expert in Karate or Kungfu and can actually tackle armed robbers is another issue. If does excellent, nothing like it. I will not be unhappy, if he raises alarm but even after that the burglars attack him and forces him to retreat.

I believe there is no defense against a group of armed bandits who are not afraid to get hurt.

No lock is unbreakable. But I think the idea behind installing locks, keeping alarm or guard dog is to make the job of burglars more difficult.

These are just my honest feeling. 

I love this forum 

best Santanu


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

This is Ajay's website:

vom Patiala German Shepherds | Breeder of Working-line German Shepherds

You can email him through the "Contact Us" page.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

A lot of times when we get people to ask about protection/guard dogs, they are talking about dogs that will lay down their life for you. So your idea is different than that. You’re looking for a deterrent, which is great. You just need a dog with solid nerve, one that can put on a show, scare people, alert you in the meantime, ect. If the bite/fight isn’t as important to you, I can almost say that 99% of dogs from a Schutzhund breeding will do what you want with the proper training.

Like I said, most people won’t challenge that type of dog anyways, and it sounds like that’s all you want. For your purposes, watching the dogs bark, growl, sleeve work, is all that matters. The “show” is all that matters.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Dear martemchik,
Thanks a lot for the clarification. Yes true there is often misunderstanding on the part of the owner (specially 1st timer) that what he/she wants from the canine?

Like i described, i am not an expert, but it is very clear to be what role i want my gsd to play. Now given the confusion with term "guard dog" for the novice owner can we coin some new new terms pls which will make it clear for breeders, owners and trainers to communicate better. 
Let us call the dogs of my type (as described in the earlier post) "deterrent dogs" to distinguish from PPD.

In your last post you mention two more important things that 99 percent of dogs with sch breeding and training will do that.

Now let us revisit my first post. Given that i want a deterrent dog, so is it wise to look for Schutzhund titled dogs in the pedigree ? Please clarify. 
(It is important as I have clarified that there seems to be no specialist Schutzhund breeder in India)

Best
Santanu


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## lalachka (Aug 13, 2013)

I think castlemaid gave you a link for an ipo (schutzhund breeder)


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

I was given the contact of Mr. Ajay Singh, from vom.patiala kennel, I contacted him yesterday.

My suspicion turned out to be correct. Mr Singh informed me that he cannot recommend any guard dog or protection gsd breeder in India, as there is no credible way to judge what they are breeding.

Hence I back to my original point. Look credible breeders, with proven working dogs in the pedigree of their breeding stock. That seems to be the feasible option in India. How far that is useful is something look forward to know?

Best

Santanu

Best


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Although it would help…I’m not sure that having Schutzhund titles three generations back in the pedigree will give you any idea of the dog’s guarding ability. The best bet is if the parents have them. But a lot of dogs have Schutzhund titles way back in their pedigrees and could work at all at this point. As a pedigree reader, you have no idea which dogs out of that litter were bred to get to yours, and without seeing those titles on the parents…it’s not a guarantee.

I also know of a few dogs, that you’d be shocked to learn they come from IPO3 parents. Which is why you really have to do your research, and get a dog from a kennel known for producing the type of dog you want.

If you have the funds, I’d strongly recommend importing.


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## scfang (Dec 19, 2013)

Hi Santanu,

Which part of India are you at? I met a gentlemen from Mumbai a few months ago in Mia Skogster seminar in Singapore, he trained and titled his dog, but mainly Malinois. Occasionally, he breeds too. You probably want to contact him and see if he has any recommendation for GSD. His Facebook link is https://www.facebook.com/sachin.rawte.5 If you need his mobile number, please let me know and I can PM you.

In fact he is getting Ivan Balabanov to be in Mumbai for a seminar in Nov, if you can you should try to attend.


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Thanks a lot scfang and martemchik.

Dear scfang pls give me the moblie number of Mr Sachi Rawte. You may mail it to my email [email protected]

I visited Sachins youtube page. A working line Malinois can also be a great alternative (thanks for the suggestion). I already have straight back gsd.



Best
Santanu


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## TEZPUR1976 (Jun 29, 2014)

Dear martemchik,
The interaction with u was very helpful. I researched the pedigree of several dogs from some of the top kennels here in India. Some of them have Schutzhund titled dogs in their pedigree, but none of the dogs that are used for breeding seem to be schutzhund or ipo titled. So there is no chance of getting a litter born to scutzhund titled parents. At best i can get a pup with working titled dogs 3 generations back. So thats it!

Now i understand why the breeder, to whom i talked, said that getting a pup with guarding ability will be purely a 50:50 gamble. Some day I hope i will have enough money to import a quality working pup.

As of now i am wondering will it help if instead of gsd i go for doberman. Again same problem. There are some quality breeders, but sieger or conformation type show winners.

Given that i need a dog as a watchman and alram, will a show line doberman be a better gamble than a showline gsd. Are dobes more hyperactive and morelikely to bark (or even bite) unknown person? Have you worked with dobes

Your opinion will be of great help.

Best

Santanu


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