# Awful experience while walking to the store



## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Please read edit 2 for a more concise and less angry explanation. I was very fired up when I wrote this post and it does not accurately portray what happened. 

I had such an upsetting experience today. I cut across the park to walk to the store real quick. A random dog sprinted through the bushes and toward me and Fern. I put myself between Fern and the dog and yelled "NO GO AWAY!" while stomping and clapping. Bolted past me and started sniffing Fern. I wanted to get out ASAP and was not in the mood to have Fern playing with a strange bully breed dog that was clearly not under control. I was trying to kick it away but with the dog and Fern running around I was getting entangled by the leash. I was telling the other dog no and pushing it away to no avail. 30 long seconds went by and the owner casually walked around and saw us. I told him can you get your dog, my dog isn't friendly (Fern and my mom were almost attacked by a dog so I didn't know how Fern would react). Fern and the strange dog were kind of playing together. He said, "why? they're playing. Your dog isn't dangerous". I yelled again for him to control his dog. At this point, I was going to start kicking his stupid dog but it proved to be very difficult. A bunch of children was around and so were families. At this point Fern yelped because the other dog nipped her on the inner thigh. I couldn't grab the dog's collar because it didn't have one. It was literally only wearing a prong collar. When Fern yelped he yelled his recall command but it didn't work 6 times. Eventually, the dog went to its owner. When he was walking away he gave me a dirty look and shook his head while laughing at me. When I made eye contact with him he had that look of "what are you going to do about it?" I admit the dog was definitely friendly but very boisterous.

I was checking Fern's legs and the area the dog nipped and she was ok. I cut through a different area to diminish line of sight. His dog was literally stalking us I assume because he ran through the tall grass, past the overgrown willow tree and up the hill to try play again. I had to yell NO and GET AWAY while moving forward and the dog again didn't care. Fern at this point was growling slightly and standing her ground. The owner was screaming the recall command and started getting really angry. The dog went away.

I felt so disrespected, not once did he say sorry or physically try to recall the dog. I was so furious. Luckily the store was about a mile away so I walked off all the anger. When I was walking through the park again (took the opposite way) I did not see him. I felt really stupid for not sticking up for Fern and not kicking the dog. My mom said she was glad I didn't react by kicking because the owner could have been physically violent with me. One of my neighbors got angry with us when we tried to stand up for ourselves too. They keyed our car and would leave trash next to our cars and under our car. A lot of the people at this park keep to themselves and usually control their dogs.

I couldn't protect my dog because I genuinely felt fear for my own safety due to the owner. He was over 6'3" and was so rude. He basically watched everything happen and was laughing to himself. I'm starting to feel really afraid because Fern is slowly becoming reactive. I've been practicing recall and "watch me" to stop her from staring at other reactive dogs.

I seriously considered buying pepper spray for dogs (milder so it doesn't cause permanent damage apparently) but I would feel really bad if I used it on a playful dog. For me it's a no brainer to kick and pepper spray an aggressive dog but I don't know about younger playful dogs. That dog was a bully breed that was maybe like 8 months old. He was lanky, not neutered and goofy. I was friendly to the pup at first and the dog came to say hi. UGH. I froze because I was in the spotlight with all those families, children etc. The man's child was there too so I felt awful about kicking the dog or hurting it.

Edit: Travelling away to walk my dogs is impossible. Everything in a 30-minute radius is more urban, way more crime and even more untrained dogs.

Edit 2: I was very upset when I wrote this post. All the details are everywhere and probably in the wrong order (never post when angry!).

1. Puppy ran up to me
2. I said "hey little buddy, where's your owner?" (this puppy was almost the size of Fern)
3. I put myself between the strange dog and Fern
4. Puppy jumps on Fern and they play
5. Puppy was rough housing and Fern doesn't like it (eyes open wide, hackles)
6. I try to diffuse the situation by saying "NO, GO AWAY" or something to that extent
7. Owner hears me yelling and comes around the corner
8. I say "my dog isn't friendly, get your dog"
9. Owners laughs and says "MY DOG is friendly, they're playing"
10. I'm getting tangled on leash, jumping around like a monkey
11. His dog bites Fern on the leg
12. Fern yelp and backs off
13. Puppy is fixated on Fern's leg and keeps trying to bite
14. I yell at his dog to stop it and owner finally recalls
15. I'm inspecting Fern's leg to make sure nothing is there, I tell the owner "I think your dog nipped mine"
16. He laughs, shakes his head and releases the dog to run around again. I just stare at him and he looks at me and puts his arms up like "what are you gonna do about it"
17. We take a different route to cut off line of sight
18. Dog rushes out of the grass and trees and charges at Fern
19. Tries to bite Fern's leg (the same leg)
20. I clap and put myself between pup and Fern saying NO GO AWAY
21. Owner is screaming recall command 5 times and isn't working
22. After the 6'th time the pup finally leaves.
23. I jog up the path with Fern and practice watch me. Treat and praise.

I did blow it out of proportion since I was really upset. I was reflecting on it this morning. I still think it was an upsetting ordeal, not because of the pup but because of the other owner.

For those wondering why I am a bit anxious and very suspicious: There is a lot of violence toward Asian women in this area. I've literally had people ask me if I brought COVID to the US. I've seen the people in this area fight before and it's insane. One woman grabbed the other woman's infant and coughed on it after she lost the arguement. She said she hopes the infant dies of COVID. We have a sparse asian community and lost of us have been assaulted etc since COVID happened. I've had children try to set off firecrackers at me and Fern while their parents laughed. We've had "pest control" people come to my house to help us. Bad vibes, called the company and they said those people were not part of the company. This is an area where gentrification is starting to happen so there is a strange mix of nice stuff and angry people.


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## Dunkirk (May 7, 2015)

I'm so sorry it happened, I suggest you report it, written, to your relevant authority/authorities, and keep a record of the details.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Report what? a playful dog in a park? An owner who was not concerned about his playful dog being inquisitive and playful? That dog could have done a lot of damage and quickly if it wasn't being playful, or if you upped the ante and kicked it. I think feeling awful that you didn't kick a dog is awful. I would feel relieved that it did not escalate to that level. And the question is, if the dog was truly aggressive, could I have stepped up and protected Fern. Dogs sometimes become reactive because they do not trust their owners to protect them. Their olfactory is discriminating enough to smell fear on us, and they do take their cues from us.

I get it, you did not want your dog to socialize with an unknown dog of unknown temperament. That is valid. Getting your dog behind you and yelling at the dog and the owner to get their dog under control was probably a good move. Kicking the dog would not have been. That likely would have escalated rather than stopped a situation. I would have answered the man who said the dog is friendly or that your dog is not dangerous, with "My dog has been attacked" instead of "my dog is not friendly." If that did not get him to get his dog under control than he's a jerk and the world is actually full of them. You cannot stop them from happening. All you can do is to have a plan to have your dog's back. Sometimes when we have a plan, we project a different attitude and never have to use the plan. Having the pepper spray or air horn at hand might do the trick.


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

In these sorts of situations it is best to stay calm. If you get upset when a dog approaches, yelling, kicking, ect... your dogs is going to start reacting in the same way you are. Walk with a stick or umbrella you can open to frighten away or block the view of the approaching dog. High value treats tossed on the ground are also a good distraction for the majority of dogs and will give you the opportunity to leave the area. Study dog behavior and learn to asses it quickly and distinguish between a dog that is an actual threat and one that is not. You can also tell other dog owners something like "She's being treated for mange." That will make most people call their dog back real quick.

You sound like you are younger and possibly female. Being calm and confident will go a long way. If you behave like a victim others will target you. Maybe look into taking some self defense classes as well to boost your confidence.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

OP, you need take care of your anxiety, anger and irrational fears first. The world is not a horrible place, a puppy would do nothing to you or your dog, a father would not be violently beating you in front of his family, you cannot control others but yourself, no matter how much you complain. 
I agree with the above post and advice.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Wow these replies are harsh. 

You're perfectly justified in being angry. This has happened to me before too; you never know how an off-leash dog is going to react, whether it's going to be aggressive or playful, and people who think it's fine for their dog to rush up to leashed dogs in public places with abandon are inconsiderate jerks. 

I agree that kicking the dog would probably only have escalated things, but you have every right to be angry at this man. But you should try to remain calm, because of what others have said, that your dog can easily pick up on your fear and anxiety and make situations like this worse. But yeah, pick up some pepper spray. If that dog rushes up to you again, give it a face full of mace. It is your right to protect yourself and your dog. (And don't worry about it being "milder" for dogs; pepper spray is a temporary deterrent and not designed to inflict permanent damage. I know, I've shot myself in the face with bear spray before. No lasting harm.)


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, you are lucky it didn't escalate and most likely the other dog was a sane one, as was it's owner, telling you it wasn't a big deal. Make sure you take a pouch full of treats with you next time. That's how I prevented a dog from attacking me: a Bully breed stalking me, head low, eyes on me, walking slowly. The treats saved me and I was able to get in my car before it was done eating. Don't take Fern if your anxious about the world because your anxiety travels down the leash to her. Have you read up on dog body language? Turid Rugaas: "Calming Signals"


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

She wrote: “a bully breed that was maybe like 8 months old. He was lanky, not neutered and goofy. I was friendly to the pup at first and the dog came to say hi. UGH. I froze because I was in the spotlight with all those families, children etc. The man's child was there too so I felt awful about kicking the dog or hurting it.”

The OP saw that the dog was not dangerous and her dog was fine. In this situation she should have given as much leash as possible as not add additional pressure with her body and screaming, or dropped the leash. Then I would say “That’s enough, let’s go” and move on. I don’t see any need to kick the dog, it would be an extreme overreaction with consequences.

The OP is making her non reactive dog into a reactive dog, based on this and previous posts.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Cut her some slack guys.We've all made mistakes in the past. Hopps freaked out because her plan to waylay a rushing loose dog wasn't effective in this situation. Now is the time to offer suggestions for the inevitable next time. A friendly puppy with a clueless owner is handled differently than an aggressive dog.Whenever I screw up I go over what could I have done differently for a better outcome. Then make a plan.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

As for carrying treats, I once had a beagle refuse to leave me alone in the dog park because he could smell the treats in my bum pack! It was EXTREMELY annoying, and the owner was mad at ME for causing his dog's behaviour! I was planning to use the treats for training once I was done throwing the ball for her in the park. I had no plans to use them while there.

So, just sayin' - treats can backfire! They could make the dog decide to hang around longer than you want!

A responsible dog owner makes sure its dog is wearing a collar.
A responsible dog owner makes sure its dog has a good recall before letting it run off leash.
This guy was a total hat.
One thing I am NOT clear on is if this happened in a designated off leash area. It sound like it happened in a public area, where a dog SHOULD be leashed. (Haven't re-read the OP...)

At one time, I owned a rescue that would have attacked that guy's dog, and not let go unless you choked her out, or had a break stick. NO ONE has the right to assume an on-leash dog is friendly!


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

Nothing you can do about stupid humans, the world is full of them. I recommend you continue to train Fern so she will be confident in any situation. Her confidence will affect how other dogs react. You might also consider a harness that you can put a 'sticker' on that advises people not to pet her. something like this:








Amazon.com : DO NOT PET Dog Vest Harness with Removable Patches and Reflective Trim. Comes with 2 DO NOT PET Reflective Removable Patches. Please Measure Dogs Girth Before Purchase : Service Dog Vest Xlarge : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : DO NOT PET Dog Vest Harness with Removable Patches and Reflective Trim. Comes with 2 DO NOT PET Reflective Removable Patches. Please Measure Dogs Girth Before Purchase : Service Dog Vest Xlarge : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com












It's a nice way of saying 'leave the dog alone'. Yeah, I know, dogs can't read,but humans can and if they see you have a dog that is potentially dangerous, they will be a little more cognizant of the potential for danger. Don't be afraid of the park, be confident its your park, too. 
You did the right things, defended your dog as best you could but did not escalate the situation. Learn your lessons from it and move on, consider it a learning experience for both of you. Dealing with other people and dogs is just part of being a responsible dog owner. You're doing good. 

How's Fern doing, btw?


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

Calmness never hurts. Remember that your energy goes down-lead to your dog. You can actually ramp up your dog’s energy and anxiety with leash tenseness, your level of stress, and especially if you decide to kick/hit another dog, which causes anxiety in the other dog. You’re right, that irresponsible owners create issues sometimes, but my experience is that they will never be in short supply. Maybe change environments or the time you visit that place, and just work to reinforce your dog’s good experiences.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Happy Tuesday everyone!



Dunkirk said:


> I'm so sorry it happened, I suggest you report it, written, to your relevant authority/authorities, and keep a record of the details.


I have made a note about the goofy but intense pup in my head and around what time they were there. I'm going to avoid that area of the park at that time so hopefully it's all good!


selzer said:


> Report what? a playful dog in a park? An owner who was not concerned about his playful dog being inquisitive and playful? That dog could have done a lot of damage and quickly if it wasn't being playful, or if you upped the ante and kicked it. I think feeling awful that you didn't kick a dog is awful. I would feel relieved that it did not escalate to that level. And the question is, if the dog was truly aggressive, could I have stepped up and protected Fern. Dogs sometimes become reactive because they do not trust their owners to protect them. Their olfactory is discriminating enough to smell fear on us, and they do take their cues from us.
> 
> I get it, you did not want your dog to socialize with an unknown dog of unknown temperament. That is valid. Getting your dog behind you and yelling at the dog and the owner to get their dog under control was probably a good move. Kicking the dog would not have been. That likely would have escalated rather than stopped a situation. I would have answered the man who said the dog is friendly or that your dog is not dangerous, with "My dog has been attacked" instead of "my dog is not friendly." If that did not get him to get his dog under control than he's a jerk and the world is actually full of them. You cannot stop them from happening. All you can do is to have a plan to have your dog's back. Sometimes when we have a plan, we project a different attitude and never have to use the plan. Having the pepper spray or air horn at hand might do the trick.


I only wanted to kick the dog away because he bit Fern in the leg. Fern yelped and tried to hide behind me which caused the leash to tangle around me. I said I felt awful about even thinking about kicking the dog in front of children and families. Not that I didn't feel awful about not kicking the dog. I said I felt stupid for not taking better measures to protect Fern the second time around. I did not get really upset until the dog bit Fern. The dog was a puppy but it was almost the same size as Fern. It wasn't some tiny creature. I am fully aware there are a lot of jerks. This wasn't a post about "OMG I MET A MEAN PERSON BOOHOO". I know a lot of the people in this area are jerks. There was a woman that got in an arguement with another woman at the park. To "get back" at the other woman for arguing she grabbed the other lady's infant and coughed in its face and said "i hope your baby dies". So I'm very very aware that people can be disgusting here. My anger was based off of his non chalant response even after his dog bit mine. I was especially worried when his dog almost pushed a toddler off of a picnic table seat.

I took Fern away, jogged a little bit up the path and practiced "look at me" and rewarded her a few times. She wasn't shaken at all until the second lunge at us. I just felt extremely conflicted becaus I didn't want to traumatize a puppy.


Bramble said:


> In these sorts of situations it is best to stay calm. If you get upset when a dog approaches, yelling, kicking, ect... your dogs is going to start reacting in the same way you are. Walk with a stick or umbrella you can open to frighten away or block the view of the approaching dog. High value treats tossed on the ground are also a good distraction for the majority of dogs and will give you the opportunity to leave the area. Study dog behavior and learn to asses it quickly and distinguish between a dog that is an actual threat and one that is not. You can also tell other dog owners something like "She's being treated for mange." That will make most people call their dog back real quick.
> 
> You sound like you are younger and possibly female. Being calm and confident will go a long way. If you behave like a victim others will target you. Maybe look into taking some self defense classes as well to boost your confidence.


I know the dog wasn't a threat but Fern has been showing unpredictable behavior as of late. I didn't want her traumatizing the puppy. I stepped up, clapped and said No go away (raised my voice). I don't think that was an upsetting action. I only got seriously aggravated when the dog bit my dog.

I should have written that prior to that I said "hey buddy where's your owner" and I looked for the owner with no avail. I only got super annoyed when the dog bit Fern in the leg. It wasn't a hard bite but enough where Fern did not want to play with the dog anymore. I have taken self defense classes but it's not going to help here. I've had people follow me and yell racist comments and honking at me. I've even seen people grab an infant and coughing in its face because two ladies got in a fight.


GSD07 said:


> OP, you need take care of your anxiety, anger and irrational fears first. The world is not a horrible place, a puppy would do nothing to you or your dog, a father would not be violently beating you in front of his family, you cannot control others but yourself, no matter how much you complain.
> I agree with the above post and advice.


Irrational fears? That puppy was almost the same size as Fern. It wasn't a tiny dog. I'm not here to complain and wallow in pity. You'll be surprised what happens in this area. I've literally seen two women arguing and one of them picked up the other's infant and coughed in its face while yelling "i hope your baby dies". And this was some random encounter over nothing. I've had someone follow me, calling me a b-word and hope that I get killed because I told them I would call the police if they kept following me and made awful comments. So no, I don't think you understand where I am coming from at all. My anger and anxiety are definitely in the right place and my fears are definitely not irrational. My neighbors have literally tried to follow me around in their car while walking with their windows rolled down, loudly talking about me because I had the audacity to ask them to move their car so the gardener can park there (they had parked 4 SUV's in front of my house). I have been assaulted multiple times throughout my life and all that. I don't know why you insist on minimizing someone else's emotions based off of your experiences. My experiences and emotions are definitely as valid as yours.

I am very well aware that I cannot control other people. I've taken a crazy amount of precautions for aggressive dogs but I froze when it came to a young adult dog that was just unruly. I'm not really appreciating your posts because I think it was you in the other thread that was saying I was pretty much being racist because I said the people were Eastern European. I'm not sure what I did to make you think I'm such a negative and prejudiced person but seriously cut me some slack. You're telling me this world isn't an awful place all the time, but you jump to me being a crappy owner that's making my dog reactive and that I'm pretty much a racist. Not a fan.


banzai555 said:


> Wow these replies are harsh.
> 
> You're perfectly justified in being angry. This has happened to me before too; you never know how an off-leash dog is going to react, whether it's going to be aggressive or playful, and people who think it's fine for their dog to rush up to leashed dogs in public places with abandon are inconsiderate jerks.
> 
> I agree that kicking the dog would probably only have escalated things, but you have every right to be angry at this man. But you should try to remain calm, because of what others have said, that your dog can easily pick up on your fear and anxiety and make situations like this worse. But yeah, pick up some pepper spray. If that dog rushes up to you again, give it a face full of mace. It is your right to protect yourself and your dog. (And don't worry about it being "milder" for dogs; pepper spray is a temporary deterrent and not designed to inflict permanent damage. I know, I've shot myself in the face with bear spray before. No lasting harm.)


I didn't know what to do! If that dog was straight up aggressive it would be an easy decision. But a large "puppy" that wanted to play but escalated into unwanted biting was a big confusing moment for me. It was an awkward experience because the owner wasn't there for the first 30 seconds or so then refused to call his dog away. I would feel awful pepper spraying the puppy but maybe if I told the owner "next time your dog rushes us, I will have to use pepper spray" would be more fair? I think a lot of people are misunderstanding my anger. In the situation I was as calm as I can be while being tangled and almost falling over lol. I think I was angry while typing and made it look like I was some raging lunatic.


wolfy dog said:


> OP, you are lucky it didn't escalate and most likely the other dog was a sane one, as was it's owner, telling you it wasn't a big deal. Make sure you take a pouch full of treats with you next time. That's how I prevented a dog from attacking me: a Bully breed stalking me, head low, eyes on me, walking slowly. The treats saved me and I was able to get in my car before it was done eating. Don't take Fern if your anxious about the world because your anxiety travels down the leash to her. Have you read up on dog body language? Turid Rugaas: "Calming Signals"


I was not anxious and crazy when I was in the situation. Just exasperated when I couldn't move because of the leash tangling me. I was ok with the dogs playing when the other owner didn't show up. It was after he showed up and was watching what was going on (clearly another dog owner struggling while the leash kept getting tangled). He only called the dog back when his dog bit mine and I clapped and told the puppy THATS ENOUGH. I wasn't screaming it like a hysterical banshee. I told the other owner as I was checking Fern, I think your dog nipped mine. He rolled his eyes, laughing at me and just released his dog to run around again. During that whole interaction, Fern was playing and having fun. The fun stopped when the dog bit her. The animal shelter I adopted her from said she only liked playing with other low energy dogs and didn't like high energy/roughhousing and in-your-face types. There is definitely some "anxiety" when I see an off leash dog without an owner, so I'll somehow work on that.


GSD07 said:


> She wrote: “a bully breed that was maybe like 8 months old. He was lanky, not neutered and goofy. I was friendly to the pup at first and the dog came to say hi. UGH. I froze because I was in the spotlight with all those families, children etc. The man's child was there too so I felt awful about kicking the dog or hurting it.”
> 
> The OP saw that the dog was not dangerous and her dog was fine. In this situation, she should have given as much leash as possible as not add additional pressure with her body and screaming, or dropped the leash. Then I would say “That’s enough, let’s go” and move on. I don’t see any need to kick the dog, it would be an extreme overreaction with consequences.
> 
> The OP is making her non reactive dog into a reactive dog, based on this and previous posts.


If you read the other parts of the post, I said the dog bit Fern and she yelped. She did not want to play anymore. The dog kept following her around the leash trying to bite her leg again. At this point Fern was running circles around me and I was trying hard to step out of the leash. When the dog bit Fern I clapped and said "THATS ENOUGH". The other dog owner was watching me the whole time and then recalled him. I don't appreciate my dog getting nipped. Maybe you're fine with it happening to your dogs. I would never ever drop the leash. Fern is not trained at all and she would run away. I would have no way to catching my dog. I wasn't screaming. I sternly told the other dog THATS ENOUGH. I have no idea why you keep commenting on my posts saying I was pretty much a racist and making my dog reactive. I seriously don't appreciate these random accusations and inferring information in such a negative way.


dogma13 said:


> Cut her some slack guys.We've all made mistakes in the past. Hopps freaked out because her plan to waylay a rushing loose dog wasn't effective in this situation. Now is the time to offer suggestions for the inevitable next time. A friendly puppy with a clueless owner is handled differently than an aggressive dog.Whenever I screw up I go over what could I have done differently for a better outcome. Then make a plan.


Thank you dogma. Fern was a bit rattled after the second time the dog rushed her. I'm definitely avoiding that area of the park and using high points as a vantage point to scope the park out. I hope people continually give me excellent advice to help deal with these situations!


Sunsilver said:


> As for carrying treats, I once had a beagle refuse to leave me alone in the dog park because he could smell the treats in my bum pack! It was EXTREMELY annoying, and the owner was mad at ME for causing his dog's behaviour! I was planning to use the treats for training once I was done throwing the ball for her in the park. I had no plans to use them while there.
> 
> So, just sayin' - treats can backfire! They could make the dog decide to hang around longer than you want!
> 
> ...


The park is a leash only park. There are no unleashed dogs allowed. It was next to the children's playground. There's still a lot of offleash dogs that are well trained. The owners are very attentive and leash their dogs when another one is coming through. I was super worried about traumatizing the puppy if Fern decided to make it stop chasing her. The only information I had about her from the shelter was she only likes dogs that are dainty and calm. It was an awkward moment since the owner wasn't there and Fern was having a fun time playing. They played for a minute or so until that other dog bit them.


Buckelke said:


> Nothing you can do about stupid humans, the world is full of them. I recommend you continue to train Fern so she will be confident in any situation. Her confidence will affect how other dogs react. You might also consider a harness that you can put a 'sticker' on that advises people not to pet her. something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello! I might have to get that harness just for show. I felt so awful about even thinking about kicking the other puppy, even if he nipped Fern a bit. I felt really bad because when it happened the second time Fern was looking at me while trying to avoid the dog. I really felt like I failed here there. I just couldn't bring myself to even nudge that other dog away with my foot.

Fern is doing well! We've mostly been working on motivation! David posted some Michael Ellis videos in my other thread and I've been practicing. We practiced reward events and she really likes it. She's learning that it's ok to have fun! I'm trying to get her to play tug and ball. She does not care for the ball sadly. She's also working on losing weight. She quite overweight so we've been having a blast running around the park!

The only OB we're practicing right now is come and "watch me". Her tail wags a mile a minute when we do OB


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Rionel said:


> Calmness never hurts. Remember that your energy goes down-lead to your dog. You can actually ramp up your dog’s energy and anxiety with leash tenseness, your level of stress, and especially if you decide to kick/hit another dog, which causes anxiety in the other dog. You’re right, that irresponsible owners create issues sometimes, but my experience is that they will never be in short supply. Maybe change environments or the time you visit that place, and just work to reinforce your dog’s good experiences.


I will be sticking to the other side of the park for now and just focus on having fun! I honestly couldn't bring myself to kick the dog even after it bit Fern on the leg. Fern and I did some watch me exercises in the same area when we walked back. She seemed unfazed by all this which is awesome! I'm trying to make some friends at the park with other dog owners to see if Fern wants to play. She had fun playing with that rambunctious pup up until the bite, so maybe she can make a friend or two later.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Hopps you did the best you could under the circumstances. It's appalling when humans treat their fellow humans the way you've described.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

OP, thank you for your feedback. Please rest assured I will never see and never respond to your posts anymore, I’m blocking you. Enjoy being always right.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Sorry this happened. Yes the other dog should have been leashed. The guy was a jerk, doesn't matter what the dogs were doing, you didn't want his dog in your space. He should have appoligized. 

Next time try to keep your tone of voice from being high and excited to low and meaning business. Humans, especially females have tendency to get a higher pitch voice. I know my wife does, she had to work hard not to use a higher pitch when correcting puppy biting. 

Thinking about dog barks, Jaz's barks for play, to draw our attention to something, or alert on a possible sound are all in certain tonal range. But when she gets very serious and barks at a perceived threat, that bark is very deep and no doubt means business.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Folks please be helpful or skip this thread if that's not possible. Thank you🌈


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## CactusWren (Nov 4, 2018)

selzer said:


> Report what? a playful dog in a park?


A playful and most probably illegal off-leash dog. Yes, that can be reported and the OP would be perfectly within her rights to do so, especially considering that the owner was contemptuous, disrespectful, and most likely breaking the law.

He's free to do so. Other people are also free to report it, and the police would be free to ticket him.

@Hopps I, too, am sorry that you were treated that way and I think you did the best you could. The other owner was out of line in every way.


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

@Hopps it sounds like you made the best of the situation. Many people have been in your shoes and it can be stressful. Nobody wants their dog hurt or to get bit themselves fending off a loose dog. Nice job on reinforcing a good experience with Fern afterwards.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I think a lot of posts here by people lean towards assualt any dog that comes near me and mine and ask questions later. I believe in a more read and react mindset than a preset I’m going to kick this dogs head in or mace or pepper spray them in they get near us mentality. If I clearly see a young friendly dog with his owner near by, I will most likely allow a quick greeting, before moving on. I’m also well aware of one of my dogs tendency to be assertive with other males and puppies. The best advice I have is to relax and don’t be so quick to go on the offensive. I’d also have no problem lifting a dog by a prong or the scruff if I felt it necessary to control them.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> @Hopps you did the best you could under the circumstances. It's appalling when humans treat their fellow humans the way you've described.


Thank you, I will make a better plan on dealing with non aggressive loose dogs! I’m going to try the abundance of treat method next time. 


drparker151 said:


> Sorry this happened. Yes the other dog should have been leashed. The guy was a jerk, doesn't matter what the dogs were doing, you didn't want his dog in your space. He should have appoligized.
> 
> Next time try to keep your tone of voice from being high and excited to low and meaning business. Humans, especially females have tendency to get a higher pitch voice. I know my wife does, she had to work hard not to use a higher pitch when correcting puppy biting.
> 
> Thinking about dog barks, Jaz's barks for play, to draw our attention to something, or alert on a possible sound are all in certain tonal range. But when she gets very serious and barks at a perceived threat, that bark is very deep and no doubt means business.


I definitely made the mistake of cheerfully asking the puppy where his owners were. The puppy saw that as an extra green light to play I think. I have a hard time sounding too serious because I’m usually quiet when I’m serious haha! I’m going to practice when Fern isn’t around


CactusWren said:


> A playful and most probably illegal off-leash dog. Yes, that can be reported and the OP would be perfectly within her rights to do so, especially considering that the owner was contemptuous, disrespectful, and most likely breaking the law.
> 
> He's free to do so. Other people are also free to report it, and the police would be free to ticket him.
> 
> @Hopps I, too, am sorry that you were treated that way and I think you did the best you could. The other owner was out of line in every way.


Yeah at the end of the day I know puppies will be puppies  but the rude and condescending owner? No thanks! He is the first dog owner that was so rude to me. He did sound extremely exasperated when his dog wouldn’t come after the second charge. 


Rionel said:


> @Hopps it sounds like you made the best of the situation. Many people have been in your shoes and it can be stressful. Nobody wants their dog hurt or to get bit themselves fending off a loose dog. Nice job on reinforcing a good experience with Fern afterwards.


Thank you! I’ve been filling my head with Michael Ellis videos and I was like I need to make this positive somehow and not dwell. It was definitely stressful but that other dog owner’s attitude was the deciding factor of how awful it was! I wouldn’t act the way he did but it’s a good reminder for me to always be good natured. 


Bearshandler said:


> I think a lot of posts here by people lean towards assualt any dog that comes near me and mine and ask questions later. I believe in a more read and react mindset than a preset I’m going to kick this dogs head in or mace or pepper spray them in they get near us mentality. If I clearly see a young friendly dog with his owner near by, I will most likely allow a quick greeting, before moving on. I’m also well aware of one of my dogs tendency to be assertive with other males and puppies. The best advice I have is to relax and don’t be so quick to go on the offensive. I’d also have no problem lifting a dog by a prong or the scruff if I felt it necessary to control them.


I think the part that made me freeze was the fact that there was no dog owner. He didn’t even say “hey that’s my dog oops!” I had to ask and he was like “yeah” and shrugged. It was so bizarre. 

I felt hesitant about grabbing the prong collar because I have no idea how they work. I definitely should have relaxed when Fern was playing. 

My lack of experience was definitely the biggest contributing factor. Like many of the people here said I’m so glad it was a harmless incident, but I got to learn so much! Most lessons come with a price but I’m glad the price was me looking ridiculous. I looked like I was playing the floor and leash is lava 😂


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

A great end to our day. I took Fern out for a walk again. The coast was clear. A goldendoodle 10 mo old came running toward us. The owner was freaking out and I just waved to her. I said hi to the puppy and took a deep breath. I let Fern and the puppy prance around me. The owner said they were sorry and the dog hasn’t done that in a few months. I said it was ok and puppies are puppies! We had a nice conversation about doodles and she gave her dog a dried sweet potato treat. As she leashed her dog she gave Fern one too! Fern was super happy about the treat, I jogged her a few yards and treat/praise on top of that like I did with the other dog. Fern didn’t seem upset by the interaction at all! Hurray! I didn’t think everyone’s tips would come in handy again.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

CactusWren said:


> A playful and most probably illegal off-leash dog. Yes, that can be reported and the OP would be perfectly within her rights to do so, especially considering that the owner was contemptuous, disrespectful, and most likely breaking the law.
> 
> He's free to do so. Other people are also free to report it, and the police would be free to ticket him.
> 
> @Hopps I, too, am sorry that you were treated that way and I think you did the best you could. The other owner was out of line in every way.


No, reporting such a situation, in my opinion is overkill. 

This young dog could have done a lot of damage, but Hopps was friendly to it at first. That's a mistake. Because ANY time you choose to let your dog interact with another dog things can go south. Hopps said that she looked her dog over and she was fine. So the dog nipped her in the interaction. These dogs -- our dogs, can play really rough and we can easily misinterpret playful behavior with aggression. And aggression can follow playful behavior, especially if one dog is nervous, reactive, shy, or leashed. If you are ok with your dog playing/interacting with other dogs, then you have to be a little more easy about it, and you have to expect that things WILL go over at times, where you need to step in and stop what is going on, and get everyone under control. Maybe your dog will walk away with a hole in her that she didn't have before. The thing about that is that if you wig out about it, the dog is probably going to have a serious issue with other dogs. It is often more about our response to a situation than the situation itself, even if there is a little blood. These dogs are not shrinking violets. They can handle a LOT of pain. Your best bet is to 1. Stay calm, stay calm for your dog like you would for your kid. Don't let yourself get pissed until you are at home punching the keyboard and your pup is tucked away enjoying a snack or having a nap. We can't change everyone else in the world to behave the way we want them to. That isn't happening. What we can do is change ourselves to reduce the number of occurances, to reduce the amount of negative reaction that we have to behaviors. What we can do is know our dog really, really well and cater her environment to who she is, that may mean avoiding the park altogether and walking her late at night. It doesn't sound like that is what she needs. But if she was that kind of dog, you can't stop jerks from letting their animals run up to her, so you have to be there when no one else is. And you would do that because you love her, whoever she is; and she is more important than trying to make other people be responsible.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

selzer said:


> No, reporting such a situation, in my opinion is overkill.
> 
> This young dog could have done a lot of damage, but Hopps was friendly to it at first. That's a mistake. Because ANY time you choose to let your dog interact with another dog things can go south. Hopps said that she looked her dog over and she was fine. So the dog nipped her in the interaction. These dogs -- our dogs, can play really rough and we can easily misinterpret playful behavior with aggression. And aggression can follow playful behavior, especially if one dog is nervous, reactive, shy, or leashed. If you are ok with your dog playing/interacting with other dogs, then you have to be a little more easy about it, and you have to expect that things WILL go over at times, where you need to step in and stop what is going on, and get everyone under control. Maybe your dog will walk away with a hole in her that she didn't have before. The thing about that is that if you wig out about it, the dog is probably going to have a serious issue with other dogs. It is often more about our response to a situation than the situation itself, even if there is a little blood. These dogs are not shrinking violets. They can handle a LOT of pain. Your best bet is to 1. Stay calm, stay calm for your dog like you would for your kid. Don't let yourself get pissed until you are at home punching the keyboard and your pup is tucked away enjoying a snack or having a nap. We can't change everyone else in the world to behave the way we want them to. That isn't happening. What we can do is change ourselves to reduce the number of occurances, to reduce the amount of negative reaction that we have to behaviors. What we can do is know our dog really, really well and cater her environment to who she is, that may mean avoiding the park altogether and walking her late at night. It doesn't sound like that is what she needs. But if she was that kind of dog, you can't stop jerks from letting their animals run up to her, so you have to be there when no one else is. And you would do that because you love her, whoever she is; and she is more important than trying to make other people be responsible.


What else could I have done except be "friendly" to the other dog? The dog was already in my face and I was putting myself between the strange dog and Fern. It's not like I threw Fern into the dogs face and was like "OK have fun biting Fern!" and left. I was actively looking for its owner just in case it was a wiggly pup that slipped its collar. I did not want to potentially make an aggressive move and escalate since I don't know where it came from. Fern was a few feet diagonally away from me. The dog looked like a typical wiggly puppy and pushed past me and and they started sniffing each other. Both of their hackles were up but they were jumping around and playing. Then the other dog honed in on Fern's back right leg. The dog lunged at her leg and Fern jumped back a bit. It didn't get a full bite since she moved. I clapped my hands and told the dog to go away and it didn't while the owner watched. When I started to be a bit more aggressive to the dog, its behavior became way more intense. His dog was unresponsive to the recall when it became focused on her leg. I focused on body blocking/getting tangled on the leash. He didn't step up to get his dog but was yelling really loud. He was about 20 feet away. During this interaction, I was definitely more upset about the blatant disrespect and rudeness from the owner vs Fern getting nipped with no injuries. At this point there was no rough play. There was a clear attitude shift from the puppy and it kept going for that leg! I know these breeds can be very intense when they're with other dogs and things were escalating very quickly imo. 

Shortly after that the dog came charging at us again from almost a hundred feet away with no line of sight. He made a beeline for Fern. At that point I was using my body and my arms to block and yelled at the dog to get away. He was fixated on biting the same back leg again. I didn't know if it was safe enough to grab a dog's prong collar (I read that it can escalate a situation but I'm not educated on it). The dog was definitely less puppy energy and more "I want to get this specific leg". The dog wasn't playing rough at all, he was just fixated on her hind leg. I was basically playing goalie and guiding Fern to walk in a circle behind me. I'm sure I looked ridiculous but it was better than Fern getting bit!

I am absolutely not ok with Fern playing with random dogs but I would much rather pretend to be ok with it vs being freaked out and escalating the situation to make it worse. If I could report that man I totally would. I just don't have any information on him. I was told by the animal shelter that Fern much prefers to play with "gentle and dainty dogs" and avoids the bigger and rambunctious dogs. 

After I went over to the other sidewalk I was watching the dog. The dog was doing this weird thing where he was constantly running in a circle around the children's park area. It almost looked like everything was invisible except for this circle he was running. People were too afraid to ask him to leash his dog. The dog almost knocked down a toddler off of a bench. The family was about to say something but he gave them a super aggressive look and stared down the family. They stayed for a bit but I saw them packing up. I want to emphasize that the only reason why I wasn't more aggressive about getting the dog away from me was because the owner was very aggressive, condescending and downright rude. 

Anyways this thread was more about dealing with somewhat friendly wiggly dogs with aggressive and rude owners. It's impossible for me to type every single detail but something told me that dog wasn't acting right toward the end of the first interaction. And definitely not right during the second interaction. From now on I'll be carrying pepper spray and warning the owners of potentially harmful dogs that I will be using it if it happens again since we never know how situations can escalate. If I wasn't worried about the owners being aggressive then it would have been a different story, like the goldendoodle incident.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

If I remember right Hopps is a novice dog owner/handler. I think it shows. 

Loose dogs with no one around have been a problem in some places I've lived. Not so much loose dogs with people around. Dogs repeatedly getting loose get reported unless they show that they are friendly. Loose dogs in the neighborhood will go to the doggy hoosegow if I would have caught them during the time the hoosegow was open. It is not the dogs' fault they are loose as it is not their responsibility to be contained but the owner's responsibility to see that they are.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

middleofnowhere said:


> If I remember right Hopps is a novice dog owner/handler. I think it shows.
> 
> Loose dogs with no one around have been a problem in some places I've lived. Not so much loose dogs with people around. Dogs repeatedly getting loose get reported unless they show that they are friendly. Loose dogs in the neighborhood will go to the doggy hoosegow if I would have caught them during the time the hoosegow was open. It is not the dogs' fault they are loose as it is not their responsibility to be contained but the owner's responsibility to see that they are.


Definitely novice dog owner. It doesn't help that my last dog was extremely dog aggressive (fear aggressive on leash) so I have bad habits of constantly scanning for dogs, avoiding dogs in general. She would foam at her mouth and pull until she choked herself out. Some people thought my dog was possessed by a demon. I'm not super fearful about it but it's pretty much a reflex. I am overly cautious of any dogs in general after a handful of bad experiences with my previous dog. My dog was attacked by my friend's dogs. For some reason, she just let go of the leash even though she knew her dogs were very dog aggressive while mine was off leash at the park. She was off leash due to recommendations by a trainer and it actually worked. Luckily my dog wasn't badly injured but it took me a second to react. I threw her dogs off of mine but my dog was never the same. So now I have all these bad habits of hyper-vigilance and I think I react too quickly instead of just observing the scene! 

I'm not sure how I should have reacted with the dog that charged us twice. I almost feel bad for thinking about pepper spraying but I don't want Fern to get injured. My brain just goes into "FERN IS GOING TO KILL THE SMALL DOG" or "THE BIG DOG IS GOING TO KILL FERN".


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Hopps said:


> Definitely novice dog owner. It doesn't help that my last dog was extremely dog aggressive (fear aggressive on leash) so I have bad habits of constantly scanning for dogs, avoiding dogs in general. She would foam at her mouth and pull until she choked herself out. Some people thought my dog was possessed by a demon. I'm not super fearful about it but it's pretty much a reflex. I am overly cautious of any dogs in general after a handful of bad experiences with my previous dog. My dog was attacked by my friend's dogs. For some reason, she just let go of the leash even though she knew her dogs were very dog aggressive while mine was off leash at the park. She was off leash due to recommendations by a trainer and it actually worked. Luckily my dog wasn't badly injured but it took me a second to react. I threw her dogs off of mine but my dog was never the same. So now I have all these bad habits of hyper-vigilance and I think I react too quickly instead of just observing the scene!
> 
> I'm not sure how I should have reacted with the dog that charged us twice. I almost feel bad for thinking about pepper spraying but I don't want Fern to get injured. My brain just goes into "FERN IS GOING TO KILL THE SMALL DOG" or "THE BIG DOG IS GOING TO KILL FERN".


Your actions/reactions seem pretty logical and human, given the background. I think you and your dog might benefit from some group classes. It's good to build some positive experiences! And, no matter how much you attempt to stay calm in dog on dog interactions, until you build up some positive experiences with that, it'll be really hard!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

In the past, I could afford being quite nonchalant when unleashed dogs came running to my boxer mix, as she is very socially skilled and non-reactive.
She's a pro at defusing conflict. 
With my shepherd boy, I had to use more control as he was extremely reactive when I got him and I didn't want these random encounters to ruin our work. Plus he's much less nuanced in communication. Lol
I have to recognize it's not always been easy!
Over time, I have found that quite a lot of dogs will respond well to bodyblocking and pointing away.
Not all of them though, which surprises me sometimes... It's like those have never been exposed to this very simple body language that most humans use intuitively. I mean, even street dogs will mostly get it.
Anyway, we had a few times where it didn't work and the encounter happened. I was not super happy since it's obviously not the type of habit I'm trying to build with my dog.
But well, no use getting mad once it's happening.
I'll just take it as a little bump on the road, after all it's not a life or death situation.
Things don't always unfold in a perfect way, that's life 
The best we can do is stay calm and see how it goes.
Completely agree with Tim. Familiarize yourself with natural canine communication. The more you understand it, and the more breeds and communication "styles" you know, the best you'll be able to handle these encounters.


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## newdok (Aug 3, 2021)

Really disrespectful of that owner to act this way. Can’t say I wouldn’t want to kick the dog away either. Maybe having some deterrent on you just in case might no be such a bad idea. I’ve seen way too many dogs with careless owners and questionable manners.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Hopps said:


> Definitely novice dog owner. It doesn't help that my last dog was extremely dog aggressive (fear aggressive on leash) so I have bad habits of constantly scanning for dogs, avoiding dogs in general. She would foam at her mouth and pull until she choked herself out. Some people thought my dog was possessed by a demon. I'm not super fearful about it but it's pretty much a reflex.


No wonder you were anxious! I think the suggestion to take some group classes is an excellent one. It should help both you and Fern deal with this type of encounter in the future.


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## NCMama2019 (Nov 19, 2021)

Girl do what you gotta do. I’m so sorry you’ve experienced so much hate.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I’m shocked anyone would comment on your race or anyone else in such a negative way or even at alll especially in California, where most communities are either racially diverse or have cultural pockets where people of similar ethnicities live. It sounds like a narrow minded community. At the same time, you can be the better person and not let it get you down or even bother you. When someone is rude for any reason, I feel sorry for them, living such constricted lives. They are probably uneducated and haven’t had many opportunities outside their own communities. You can be the better person and teach by example.

I hate out of control dogs, leashed or otherwise. Things happen fast and sometimes we think we know exactly what happened and why but when someone else sees it they have a different view. You bring your history with an aggressive dog with you, you are small and you have a big dog. There was a lot that could go wrong if that other dog had been aggressive rather than playful. That man lives in a different space. He’s large and could easily break up a fight if one happened, so he has less to worry about. He’s also irresponsible with his dog. Can you get a private trainer for a few sessions to observe you with Fern in public and help give you tools to deal with unexpected, spontaneous situations?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You sound very brave, actually. That much body blocking against a determined dog might get you bit up trying to protect your dog. When I had a certain ethnic dog chasing after my Arwen, it came bursting through a screen door and she was heeling off-lead, I let her run. She ran circles around me with the dog at her heels until its owners got out there, and they were able to catch it. It did not have any good intentions, but I was walking my dog off lead and their dog came busting out of the house off lead, so we just both apologized to the other and went on our way. But I wasn't blocking anything. That was a good 20 years ago. Sometimes I think I may have learned a thing or two in that time, and then I get proven wrong. What you do in the middle of a fight, you do, and you can question it later. I think a lot of what we do is just a natural reaction.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> Your actions/reactions seem pretty logical and human, given the background. I think you and your dog might benefit from some group classes. It's good to build some positive experiences! And, no matter how much you attempt to stay calm in dog on dog interactions, until you build up some positive experiences with that, it'll be really hard!


I was actually looking through group classes! I was a bit skeptical about it but I think your comment gave me the extra push to do it. I think being in a controlled environment will help me a lot. I was never able to get those positive experiences with my last dog since none of the trainers took it seriously (my dog was only 25 lbs). I'm excited to see how things go!


Chloé&Buck said:


> In the past, I could afford being quite nonchalant when unleashed dogs came running to my boxer mix, as she is very socially skilled and non-reactive.
> She's a pro at defusing conflict.
> With my shepherd boy, I had to use more control as he was extremely reactive when I got him and I didn't want these random encounters to ruin our work. Plus he's much less nuanced in communication. Lol
> I have to recognize it's not always been easy!
> ...


I'm looking through some pamphlets I picked up for trainers doing group classes now! I think I just really need to get out of the habit of hyper vigilance. It has become so ingrained into me I do it without even thinking about it. I'm also coming up with a "new plan" instead of my usual.


newdok said:


> Really disrespectful of that owner to act this way. Can’t say I wouldn’t want to kick the dog away either. Maybe having some deterrent on you just in case might no be such a bad idea. I’ve seen way too many dogs with careless owners and questionable manners.


The owner was straight up scary. I think out of this whole situation he was the biggest issue. I'm definitely considering better deterrents like an air spray can for dogs (I found it at petco) and pepper spray for aggressive dogs. 


Sunsilver said:


> No wonder you were anxious! I think the suggestion to take some group classes is an excellent one. It should help both you and Fern deal with this type of encounter in the future.


Yes I want to rewire my brain so it doesn't go into alarm mode. I need to learn new behaviors for sure! I'm looking through pamphlets for group classes now, I'm really excited to do "normal" dog owner things. 


NCMama2019 said:


> Girl do what you gotta do. I’m so sorry you’ve experienced so much hate.


Thank you! It was a big shock when I moved up here. I definitely try to avoid rude people just in case it escalates. Not too long ago I saw someone cut off another car. They both were going probably around 80 mph on a regular road, through a red light to catch up to each other for a fight. Crazy!


LuvShepherds said:


> I’m shocked anyone would comment on your race or anyone else in such a negative way or even at alll especially in California, where most communities are either racially diverse or have cultural pockets where people of similar ethnicities live. It sounds like a narrow minded community. At the same time, you can be the better person and not let it get you down or even bother you. When someone is rude for any reason, I feel sorry for them, living such constricted lives. They are probably uneducated and haven’t had many opportunities outside their own communities. You can be the better person and teach by example.
> 
> I hate out of control dogs, leashed or otherwise. Things happen fast and sometimes we think we know exactly what happened and why but when someone else sees it they have a different view. You bring your history with an aggressive dog with you, you are small and you have a big dog. There was a lot that could go wrong if that other dog had been aggressive rather than playful. That man lives in a different space. He’s large and could easily break up a fight if one happened, so he has less to worry about. He’s also irresponsible with his dog. Can you get a private trainer for a few sessions to observe you with Fern in public and help give you tools to deal with unexpected, spontaneous situations?


I lived in the Bay Area for most of my life and I only experienced a handful of racist incidents. I got comfortable, but I didn't realize Sacramento would have such heightened levels of racism towards Asian people. From what I know, Sacramento has a pretty diverse community, it's so strange. I definitely had moments where I feared for my life and went into high alert mode. Having Fern with me helped a lot since most people prefer to admire from afar. 

I was definitely afraid that if Fern snapped it would be super difficult to control her. He was super disrespectful to me and the people in that park which made me worry even more. It doesn't help that Fern was almost attacked by two small dogs a few weeks ago and she has become reactive towards reactive dogs. If the dogs stare and bark at her she starts growling and lunges. I was worried this would happen with the big puppy that ran to us. I have a few pamphlets of group lessons and a few trainers that also to private lessons. One man trains protection dogs, works with malinois and went to the Michael Ellis immersion program for trainers or something. He sounds like a good match so far. Most of the trainers have recommended I give Fern a few weeks or so to settle in with me. I'll be making a few phone calls and see how it goes!


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

selzer said:


> You sound very brave, actually. That much body blocking against a determined dog might get you bit up trying to protect your dog. When I had a certain ethnic dog chasing after my Arwen, it came bursting through a screen door and she was heeling off-lead, I let her run. She ran circles around me with the dog at her heels until its owners got out there, and they were able to catch it. It did not have any good intentions, but I was walking my dog off lead and their dog came busting out of the house off lead, so we just both apologized to the other and went on our way. But I wasn't blocking anything. That was a good 20 years ago. Sometimes I think I may have learned a thing or two in that time, and then I get proven wrong. What you do in the middle of a fight, you do, and you can question it later. I think a lot of what we do is just a natural reaction.


Thank you for calling me brave, I didn't feel brave at all haha! All I could think of was my late dog's face of fear and Fern's face of nervousness. Your experience sounds so scary and I'm so happy that your dog was able to get away and the owners grabbed the dog. Something similar happened a few weeks ago, two dogs got out of the house and bolted towards Fern. My mom was able to get the dogs to stop and run away but Fern is now reactive towards reactive dogs. I wholeheartedly agree with just doing what I can and then reflecting when I'm at home. I believe your first comment on here recommended that I do that at home but keep my cool outside. It's been good and I've been focusing on solutions from what I remember during that encounter. Honestly I'm so glad I got so many forum members here to give me advice and point out something different. Everyone's wisdom as experienced and inexperienced dog owners makes me feel really supported and more confident for whatever is next. 

I will be talking to trainers in my area to see if I find group lessons and probably private lessons as well for more experience.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

The beauty of group lessons is that everyone is on leash. So, your dog gets to work with you while other dogs and owners are present, but not unabated to the QB. If she gets a lot of experience around others dogs with you, she should become less reactive, even in situations where there are reactive dogs. Hopefully. She learns to trust you around other dogs, and you learn to trust her around other dogs. 

I look at classes as sets. One set is 6-8 weeks and then we just sign up for the next, and the next. What's kool about this, is you meet really kool people that are happy to talk about dogs. And the dog sees basically the same 6-10 dogs for a number of weeks, then the group shifts a little, maybe 6 dogs are the same and 4 are new. And then that becomes normal. Then it shifts a little again. Your dog gets used to seeing big dogs, little dogs, hairy dogs, yappy dogs, nervous dogs, hyper dogs, and little old lady dogs. 

A good class is really worth it for both the dog and the human. I actually put in a call to our training facility to find out their status on mask-wearing. If they are not demanding it, I am going to sign up again. I got some young'ns that need classes -- the story of my life.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Dogs can definitely also learn that unexpected things happen sometimes and that they shouldn't necessarily take unexpected as a threat.
You know, all in all, Fern did absolutely great. You were distressed and she could probably feel it quite intensely, and still kept cool. Kudoz to her, not every dog would have kept that calm in a situation where their owner was getting mad.
I agree that group classes would be great. I've done some with Buck in the first year after adoption, the trainer puts up really cool little exercices to work on various things, like a bunch of dogs sitting in a line and each dog zigzagging the line while the others have to stay in position. Recall from a distance with other dogs walking around, etc.
I was amazed how calm and satisfied my boy looked after just a few minutes working that way.
At some point a little bully girl broke her position to come wiggling at Buck's face and he didn't even move a brow...
It was quite amazing.
By the end of the session we were able to unleash all the dogs on the beach, and the way they all interacted during that free time was also really interesting.
Because they had been working so calmly together earlier, they were also extremely calm and well behaved once unleashed.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

I've been lucky with trainers. We travel in an RV and I've found trainers in two locations that I like. I look for trainers that have experience with and understand the GSD. I always go checkout the facility and watch a class or two before signing up.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

I hope for the sake of that unleashed pup, his owner will act more responsibly before he’ll learn a hard lesson. In a similar situation a couple of months down the road he might run into an adult unneutered male dog that might not be interested in playing at all…


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Years ago we had an idiot owner in the next neighborhood with a breed that cannot be named. He rented a little cottage in an executive country estate of maybe 30 other homes that were close to million dollar homes even 20 years ago. The guy was known to be an aggressive idiot himself and had several run-ins with neighbors, generally over noise and then his dog. His backyard had just a 4' chain link fence around it and the dog spent most of his day running back and forth along it, barking at anyone who walked by. Other dogs drove it into a frenzy and it escaped its yard semi-regularly. The dog had bitten at least one person, chased another and attacked several dogs, none super serious so far. All this I heard from friends in that neighborhood since it was hundreds of yards through the woods from my property.

Anyway, I was walking with my daughter and my off leash female GSD on our property. She was big and pretty neutral to dogs but definitely not friendly, was walking about 30 feet behind us. Out of nowhere, this other dog bursts out of the woods and runs straight up to us. I placed myself between it and my daughter and used a heavy walking stick to create a barrier. I didn't know this dog but I knew who it was and its reputation. The feeling would have been totally different if my 4 years old daughter hadn't been there.

The dog was a mixture of excited and aggressive, moving between whining/growling but definitely jumping and circling. There wasn't much time to react since out of nowhere my GSD appeared like a rocket and hit that dog broadside in the ribs and knocked it off its feet. I remember a bit of a standoff there, no dog fight but it allowed me to corral my daughter and get her home without incident. A neighbor called the owner who came to retrieve his dog; it continued to escape but we didn't see it around our place again.

All this to say, there's a lot at play when unleashed dogs approach yours. Is it friendly, is it aggressive, is it well trained for recall at least, how does my dog react, are there children involved, do you feel threatened? Personally, I don't want unleashed dogs, friendly or not, running to meet mine. I would ask any owner to recall their dogs and take the usual "oh, he's friendly" with a grain of sale and move on.

I also wouldn't hesitate to forcefully separate a wild or aggressive dog from myself or my dogs. I'd sooner pizz someone off and talk about it after they get their dog back under control than risk a dog fight. And the last thing I'm going to allow is my dog to be bitten for my inaction. That's a non-starter.

It's very hard to make judgements if you aren't there and it's something that both novice and experienced owners can struggle with since there's so many unknown variables and moving parts when you introduce an unknown dog.


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## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

WNGD I love your post most of this thread seems like blaming the victim lol


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

HollandN said:


> WNGD I love your post most of this thread seems like blaming the victim lol


Thank you. Evidently I'm not right often


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Oh, yes, I have kicked aggressive dogs, and felt absolutely NO regrets!

Back in the days when I was still doing dog parks, I watched this GSD mix target a small dog. It was going for the dog's neck, and the body language said it was planning to do the death shake if it could get hold of the dog. The owner was aware, and picked her dog up. The other dog did not give up, but persisted, and tried to pull it out of her arms.

I had Star with me, and she was still quite young, small enough that this dog could have done serious damage to her. He finally gave up, and next targeted Star. When he tried to grab HER by the neck, I stepped in between, and tried to get him to back off. When he persisted, I grabbed his collar to pull him away. He growled at me, then resumed his attack.

That's when I kicked him.

That FINALLY got the owner's attention. She had been standing with a group of other people, yakking, smoking a cigarette and drinking coffee, totally oblivious to what her dog was doing. She now came running over, yelling at me, "How DARE you kick my dog?" I yelled back that he was trying to kill other smaller dogs, and she tried to justify his behaviour by saying he was a 'rescue'! I told her if she was going to rescue dogs, she needed to learn a LOT more about dog body language!

I then put Star on her leash, and left in a huff.

This dog park DID have a small dog area, but not many people used it. It wasn't too long after this incident that I saw in a local paper where someone's Yorkie had been seriously injured by a large dog grabbing it and shaking it. I had to wonder if the guilty party was the same dog I'd seen that day!


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## GWSooie (12 mo ago)

So, I've read _MOST_ of the replies here. It sounds like a variety of beliefs on how you should/could have handled it. I think you're right in kicking the dog but that puts your body in a position to be hurt, and I see other people's points but this is your town/city and you have different experiences there so only you can decide whats right. 

I agree with you though and you have the right to take action if the other owner doesn't intend to and this is why:









Dog Parks: Why They Are A Bad Idea


Dog parks can be dangerous but they can serve a purpose. We use dog parks as distractions in order to proof our obedience exercises but never allow our dog to get in harm's way.




leerburg.com




(Whether or not this was a dog park.)

Here is what I recommend and why:
Hit the dog with a stick or spray it with bear spray. 
Also I think dogs running wild can be substituted with stray dog with the article posted below. Furthermore, as the owner of the dog, you have the right to say who/what plays with your dog and who/what does not.

"*Dealing with Stray Dogs*
"If you do live in an area where there are stray dogs carry pepper spray(bear spray)and gas a dog if it comes close. You can buy it on the internet. 
I would also carry a stout walking stick if I had problems with stray dogs.
If the owners of these stray dogs stand there like a deer in the headlights I tell them that I warned them to get their dog under control, I warn them that they need to keep their dog on leash if they don’t want this to happen again. I also tell them that I would be happy to tell the police that their dog tried to attack me and my dog and that I was simply protecting myself because I feared for my personal safety. Trust me, police officers always relate to that language."








The Groundwork to Establishing Pack Structure with Adult Dogs


Becoming a pack leader involves adopting the attitude of a pack leader. It does not involve aggression towards a dog, it doesn't involve rolling him on his back, hard leash corrections or even raising your voice to the dog. It involves adopting a leader's attitude. This is something that new dog...




leerburg.com





_"_What I do may not be possible for many people with less experience. But if a stray dog were to get aggressive with my dog and I could not verbally threaten the dog to make it move on I would attack the dog with the stick. I can hear all the PETA PUKE rolling their eyes as they read this, but the fact is by this point retreat is not an option and I would not allow my dog to be hurt. Often times one good HARD HARD hit right between the ears will deter most dogs. If you don't have the confidence to do this, call the authorities because this dog does not belong in the park." - article posted above


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

GWSooie said:


> Leerburg | The Groundwork to Establishing Pack Structure with Adult Dogs


Oh my gosh is that ever an excellent article!! Ed sure knows his stuff! Yes, some dogs have genetically faulty temperaments - I think most of us would agree Munchie's dog is a good example of that!

Edit: just read further in the article, and I don't agree 100% with everything he says, but the first part is very good.


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## GWSooie (12 mo ago)

I also think your dog will respect and thank you for driving off a dog that it did not know and did not want to play with.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

My ex husband was a cop and we were walking our Giant Schnauzer girl who was super nice and friendly in the park and out of nowhere an off leash Black Russian Terrier charged toward us and grabbed her by the neck. We yelled! My ex kicked him and he stopped and let her go. Then his owner, a big dude, showed up finally, yelling … how dare you..ready to get into a fight himself! It was so scary. I knew my ex had a gun on him and quite a temper!
I don’t even remember how the heck I got in between them screaming to stop. What helped was that I was pregnant. They just stopped. We’ve never seen this guy or this dog ever again and we were walking the dog every day in that park for many years.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

One of the schutzhund trainers I know had a black Russian terrier, and it definitely had some issues with aggression. He never let it near other dogs or people unless it was on leash, and under his complete control.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

That was actually the 1st and the last we ever had issues with. They were quite popular back in 90s.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

With this dog, the owner was never able to finish it to an IPO3. It bit the judge when they were shaking hands. 

Not going to say they are all like that!


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

I did a search for Sacramento Dog Training Club, looks like there may not be one, but, I did find this: Training Classes | Hangtown Kennel Club

You may want to try it out, good luck, it'll boost both your confidence and your dogs.


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## Lexie’s mom (Oct 27, 2019)

We has quite a mixed pack back then in the park in the center of the city 20-30 dogs walking/playing together pretty much every evening. The most popular were GSD, Airedales, Rotties, Giant Schnauzers with a mix of Middle Asian and Caucasian Ovcharkas, Black RT, and one or 2 Collies, Kerry Blues and poodles. Oh, forgot about Dobes and Boxers- very popular as well.
And a Great Dane-mine.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

On the other hand, I'd be pretty ticked if I ever let my dog be in a position where someone else felt they had to kick at them. It's easy to get heated pretty fast but I assume they would have had to be off leash and not in my control. 

It shouldn't have to be up to the other person to guess if my dogs are friendly and it wouldn't matter if they weren't comfortable with loose dog(s) approaching theirs anyway.

I have seen three heated arguments and almost two fights at dogs parks over aggressive dogs, once at the entrance/exit (stress point) and twice over toy resource guarding.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Ranger got a rather nasty nick in his ear from a small terrier mix that got possessive of a ball that was frozen in the snow. I didn't realize it until he was in the car, thought I saw the squabble and moved him away!

The owner thought it was okay to bring her to the park as long as HE didn't bring a toy, and he went at an off-peak time. Guess what? There are ALWAYS stray balls somewhere in the park! I didn't see that particular dog again, though I never got the chance to tell the owner what had happened. I'm pretty sure he realized she just wasn't the right dog for a dog park.


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## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

I have kicked a dog once. It was running out of control of it's owners up to Teagan, my highly-aggressive GSD as we walked along a sidewalk (nowhere near a park) and while I tried to stop it using a big voice and imposing body language, it kept coming. It might sound bad, but it was for it's own good. It went back to it's owners, who didn't care at all (which surprised me, but, hey).


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## Honey Maid (Dec 25, 2020)

@Hopps, you be careful in Sacramento, from what I've read in the news lately, Sac is 'off the hook'. Sad state of affairs, I use to go to Sac quite often in the 80's, it was a beautiful place, Old Sac, the nice parks, Cal Expo................. It's circling the drain now a days.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

If a playful dog approaches us, I down Valor, take a knee next to him and hold his collar. It keeps the excitement level low and allows both dogs to keep a level head. It's a non threatening position. It also allows me to 100% control my dog, physically if necessary. 

After the initial greeting, I can make a decision about where to go from there. I try not to raise my voice unless there is going to be a problem.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Wow. I sometimes wonder how I got to 53 without having to brain, shoot, or kick a dog. One time when I was cycing a shot a doberman with HALT! It was coming and it was going to eat my leg, so I waited until I could feel its breath (I was pedaling) on my leg and sprayed it It yelped and fell into a ditch. I did not stop to find out if it was ok. I avoided that stretch of road for years. 

But with dogs, even the couple of times that loose dogs burst out of houses or off porches, even the little Yorkie mix that was doing its darndest to eat Ninja, I have never had to kick a dog or shoot a dog. Never needed a break stick. I might of could've used one to separate my own dogs. There was that time I pulled my bloody stump out of the mix, when to my Explorer, pointed it at my dogs and went up to them. It startled them enough that Arwen went up under, and I snagged Rush and threw him in the crate. The rest of that was easy. The ER for me wasn't fun though. But those were my own dogs. 

I suppose as rural and rustic as we may be out here in the sticks, our population isn't all that bad when it comes to dogs.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

selzer said:


> The beauty of group lessons is that everyone is on leash. So, your dog gets to work with you while other dogs and owners are present, but not unabated to the QB. If she gets a lot of experience around others dogs with you, she should become less reactive, even in situations where there are reactive dogs. Hopefully. She learns to trust you around other dogs, and you learn to trust her around other dogs.
> 
> I look at classes as sets. One set is 6-8 weeks and then we just sign up for the next, and the next. What's kool about this, is you meet really kool people that are happy to talk about dogs. And the dog sees basically the same 6-10 dogs for a number of weeks, then the group shifts a little, maybe 6 dogs are the same and 4 are new. And then that becomes normal. Then it shifts a little again. Your dog gets used to seeing big dogs, little dogs, hairy dogs, yappy dogs, nervous dogs, hyper dogs, and little old lady dogs.
> 
> A good class is really worth it for both the dog and the human. I actually put in a call to our training facility to find out their status on mask-wearing. If they are not demanding it, I am going to sign up again. I got some young'ns that need classes -- the story of my life.


I'm hoping to find a good group and trainers for sure. I had some information PM'd to me and I'm doing lots of research going from there! I didn't have good experiences with my first dog and her dog aggression. I hope things have changed greatly in the past decade. 


Chloé&Buck said:


> Dogs can definitely also learn that unexpected things happen sometimes and that they shouldn't necessarily take unexpected as a threat.
> You know, all in all, Fern did absolutely great. You were distressed and she could probably feel it quite intensely, and still kept cool. Kudoz to her, not every dog would have kept that calm in a situation where their owner was getting mad.
> I agree that group classes would be great. I've done some with Buck in the first year after adoption, the trainer puts up really cool little exercices to work on various things, like a bunch of dogs sitting in a line and each dog zigzagging the line while the others have to stay in position. Recall from a distance with other dogs walking around, etc.
> I was amazed how calm and satisfied my boy looked after just a few minutes working that way.
> ...


Fern has a lot of life experience, I learn from her so much. She always surprises me. I hope I find an excellent trainer nearby to help me with my nerves and point out any bad habits! I had pretty bad experiences with dog trainers in the past (there are seriously so many crazy people). I'm hoping that one day Fern can be off leash and we can just have a fun, worry free day!


drparker151 said:


> I've been lucky with trainers. We travel in an RV and I've found trainers in two locations that I like. I look for trainers that have experience with and understand the GSD. I always go checkout the facility and watch a class or two before signing up.


I've always had the opposite of your experience! My first dog had serious dog aggression, but she was a 25 lbs mini eskie. So many trainers kind of scoffed at her dog aggression because she's not an "aggressive breed". They said it would be more serious if it was a bully breed, GSD, rottie etc and that my dog didn't have true dog aggression due to her breed. A different trainer asked if I ever let my dog aggressive pup off leash. I said no because I've only had her for a few weeks. She was absolutely livid that the dog had never been off leash in its life (she lived in a neglectful home). She refused to help me until I let the dog off leash and report back to her on what happened. Yikes. Another trainer told me never to look at a GSD in the eye because they will attack you. She put her GSD in a down stay. She literally took my by the shoulder and dragged me 20 feet away from her dog. She held me by the shoulders and forced me to look at her GSD in the eye. I could literally hear the rumbling growl from 20 feet away and she held me there until the dog got to 5 feet away. She turned me away and stepped in between her and her dog. I have no idea what that was supposed to teach me as a 13 year old but I was terrified of eye contact with dogs. But now here I am with a GSD, teaching it to give eye contact and giving her lots of pets while calling her pork chop.


Lexie’s mom said:


> I hope for the sake of that unleashed pup, his owner will act more responsibly before he’ll learn a hard lesson. In a similar situation a couple of months down the road he might run into an adult unneutered male dog that might not be interested in playing at all…


That dog will definitely learn a lesson the hardway. It's either he's going to get attacked by another dog or he's going to bite and eventually get put down. The owner's attitude will be the downfall of that dog. 


WNGD said:


> Years ago we had an idiot owner in the next neighborhood with a breed that cannot be named. He rented a little cottage in an executive country estate of maybe 30 other homes that were close to million dollar homes even 20 years ago. The guy was known to be an aggressive idiot himself and had several run-ins with neighbors, generally over noise and then his dog. His backyard had just a 4' chain link fence around it and the dog spent most of his day running back and forth along it, barking at anyone who walked by. Other dogs drove it into a frenzy and it escaped its yard semi-regularly. The dog had bitten at least one person, chased another and attacked several dogs, none super serious so far. All this I heard from friends in that neighborhood since it was hundreds of yards through the woods from my property.
> 
> Anyway, I was walking with my daughter and my off leash female GSD on our property. She was big and pretty neutral to dogs but definitely not friendly, was walking about 30 feet behind us. Out of nowhere, this other dog bursts out of the woods and runs straight up to us. I placed myself between it and my daughter and used a heavy walking stick to create a barrier. I didn't know this dog but I knew who it was and its reputation. The feeling would have been totally different if my 4 years old daughter hadn't been there.
> 
> ...


That story is terrifying. I'm glad your dog had your back. That's insane. 
Being a very inexperienced dog owner definitely makes it very difficult to react correctly in a situation like this. I already didn't like that other dog's "in your face" play type. I feel like I would have pepper sprayed that dog once it bit my dog even though it wasn't a full bite. And I 10000% would have pepper sprayed the dog when it charged us the second time. I'm super weary of bully type breeds since I didn't have great experiences with them either. I've had "must not be named breed" owners (fanatics of the breed) advise me that an uncontrolled/untrained one can be dangerous. I also saw a cane corso "puppy" attack my friend's corgi at the dog park. That was the scariest thing I've ever seen. It grabbed the corgi's hindleg and started shaking it's head. I've never heard a dog scream until that day.The owner literally tackled the dog down and alpha rolled it (i'm not sure what that is supposed to teach). The owner let the cane corso attack my friend's corgi 3 times before they left the park. I have no idea what my friend was doing. Knowing how powerful these breeds are definitely put me on a "caution" mindset when interacting with them.

I definitely need to get over the whole "oh but I feel bad about pepper-spraying a puppy even though it's biting my dog" mentality. I would definitely feel worse I didn't defend Fern. I'm hoping a dog trainer will give me more hands on experience in a more controlled environment. 


HollandN said:


> WNGD I love your post most of this thread seems like blaming the victim lol


 I felt really sad when I wrote my post and a good portion of the comments was basically saying I did everything wrong and you're an idiot. But I started to get very good comments that were not sugar coating information but were said with tact and politeness. I feel like most of the users in this forum are such excellent people with true sympathy and wants to help. Definitely a great learning experience.


Sunsilver said:


> Oh, yes, I have kicked aggressive dogs, and felt absolutely NO regrets!
> 
> Back in the days when I was still doing dog parks, I watched this GSD mix target a small dog. It was going for the dog's neck, and the body language said it was planning to do the death shake if it could get hold of the dog. The owner was aware, and picked her dog up. The other dog did not give up, but persisted, and tried to pull it out of her arms.
> 
> ...


Jesus Christ that is truly awful. I'm glad you defended your dog. I've been seeing quite a few people with very powerful breeds that are not trained or under control. A lot of people have told me that Fern is such a good dog (the groomers, veterinarians, vet techs, other dog owners) but I would never feel at ease leaving her unsupervised while I was on my phone or something. I'm glad you stood your ground. It's always a scary feeling knowing that you probably dodged a bullet. I feel a bit cowardly because I didn't stand my ground when talking to the other dog's owner but that dude was so scary. 


GWSooie said:


> So, I've read _MOST_ of the replies here. It sounds like a variety of beliefs on how you should/could have handled it. I think you're right in kicking the dog but that puts your body in a position to be hurt, and I see other people's points but this is your town/city and you have different experiences there so only you can decide whats right.
> 
> I agree with you though and you have the right to take action if the other owner doesn't intend to and this is why:
> 
> ...


Reading through the stuff now. I guess at worst I pepper spray the dog and then the dog owner if they get aggressive with me. This might sound dumb but I literally have to go practice kicking something and hitting it with a stick. I don't think I've ever done anything "violet" except kicking a soccer ball a few times! I'm one of those nerds that felt weird about practicing self defense moves on a training dummy...



Lexie’s mom said:


> My ex husband was a cop and we were walking our Giant Schnauzer girl who was super nice and friendly in the park and out of nowhere an off leash Black Russian Terrier charged toward us and grabbed her by the neck. We yelled! My ex kicked him and he stopped and let her go. Then his owner, a big dude, showed up finally, yelling … how dare you..ready to get into a fight himself! It was so scary. I knew my ex had a gun on him and quite a temper!
> I don’t even remember how the heck I got in between them screaming to stop. What helped was that I was pregnant. They just stopped. We’ve never seen this guy or this dog ever again and we were walking the dog every day in that park for many years.


Wow that's a very very intense story. The other dog owner was very aggressive as well. I was way more afraid of pissing him off. I should have called the police when I got to a safer place. People are so unhinged these days. My brother and I were driving on the freeway and we changed lanes. There was a truck behind us (far away) and he didn't like that. He drove next to us, screaming racist words concerning asians and tried to bump us off the road. He followed us for 40 minutes. We pretended to take an exist, which he followed. We made sure no one was behind us for three lanes across and we switched out of the exit at the last second. Another guy had serious road rage. We stopped the car and so did he. We asked what his issue was and he was running toward us. We yelled at him to back off and he said YOULL BE SORRY. He proceed to get his GUN from the car!!! He didn't shoot and wanted to scare us, we backed up and drove away so fast. 


Honey Maid said:


> I did a search for Sacramento Dog Training Club, looks like there may not be one, but, I did find this: Training Classes | Hangtown Kennel Club
> 
> You may want to try it out, good luck, it'll boost both your confidence and your dogs.


I will give them a call and see what they recommend! I'm making my list of trainers and seeing if they will work for me! Thank you, I definitely need a confidence boost for sure.


WNGD said:


> On the other hand, I'd be pretty ticked if I ever let my dog be in a position where someone else felt they had to kick at them. It's easy to get heated pretty fast but I assume they would have had to be off leash and not in my control.
> 
> It shouldn't have to be up to the other person to guess if my dogs are friendly and it wouldn't matter if they weren't comfortable with loose dog(s) approaching theirs anyway.
> 
> I have seen three heated arguments and almost two fights at dogs parks over aggressive dogs, once at the entrance/exit (stress point) and twice over toy resource guarding.


Arguements about dogs get heated so fast, it can be unnerving at times. I find that dogs that are extremely out of control and are making life **** for everyone else also has fairly volatile owners.


Honey Maid said:


> @Hopps, you be careful in Sacramento, from what I've read in the news lately, Sac is 'off the hook'. Sad state of affairs, I use to go to Sac quite often in the 80's, it was a beautiful place, Old Sac, the nice parks, Cal Expo................. It's circling the drain now a days.


Sacramento is way different than I thought it would be. A lot of my sibling's army friends grew up and love it here. It was because of their recommendation that we bought a home. 80% of the people I have met are very nice and minds their own business. The other 20% are a serious nightmare. They have absolutely no conscience, manners and are very very quick to anger. They also resort to violence and threats very quickly. I live a bit north of sacramento in a suburb, it was quite a shock. And with COVID, it's been very difficult as an asian girl to feel safe these days (because of the discrimination). I haven't been able to go to Old Sac and see the lovely sights yet because of the violence!


David Winners said:


> If a playful dog approaches us, I down Valor, take a knee next to him and hold his collar. It keeps the excitement level low and allows both dogs to keep a level head. It's a non threatening position. It also allows me to 100% control my dog, physically if necessary.
> 
> After the initial greeting, I can make a decision about where to go from there. I try not to raise my voice unless there is going to be a problem.


Do you follow the same procedure for a dog that is charging at you guys? Due to my lack of experience, it felt like the dog almost teleported to us. 

How do you recommend deescalating the situation if the other dog starts acting strangely? In my case the other dog and Fern was playing but it almost had a glassy-eyed look and started trying to bite Fern's leg. 

I know a lot of this is learning to read canine body language, so I will be signing up for group classes. I am hoping that being in a controlled setting will allow me watch dogs at a good pace.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

selzer said:


> Wow. I sometimes wonder how I got to 53 without having to brain, shoot, or kick a dog. One time when I was cycing a shot a doberman with HALT! It was coming and it was going to eat my leg, so I waited until I could feel its breath (I was pedaling) on my leg and sprayed it It yelped and fell into a ditch. I did not stop to find out if it was ok. I avoided that stretch of road for years.
> 
> But with dogs, even the couple of times that loose dogs burst out of houses or off porches, even the little Yorkie mix that was doing its darndest to eat Ninja, I have never had to kick a dog or shoot a dog. Never needed a break stick. I might of could've used one to separate my own dogs. There was that time I pulled my bloody stump out of the mix, when to my Explorer, pointed it at my dogs and went up to them. It startled them enough that Arwen went up under, and I snagged Rush and threw him in the crate. The rest of that was easy. The ER for me wasn't fun though. But those were my own dogs.
> 
> I suppose as rural and rustic as we may be out here in the sticks, our population isn't all that bad when it comes to dogs.


I would not have looked back to see if that dobbie was ok either. 
I find that in my area there has been a big surge of bully breeds and BYBs. A lot of people from the more urban areas drive here for the park. For some reason, many of them have bully breeds. They think it's funny to make people uncomfortable. The amount of bully breeds being churned out is actually ridiculous. The two shelters in my city are completely full of them, the other city is also full of them. The place that I got Fern were at max capacity of 140 dogs, most of them being bully breeds. On craigslist they're selling them for $200-$300 a puppy (6weeks old) with no shots, there are over 8 different listings. These days since people are going back to work they just dump the dogs wherever. I think the sheer number of them being produced and ignorant owners buying them is the biggest issue (not only bully breeds). 

I just hope that other dog owner trains his dog. My biggest fear is that the dog injures a child due to lack of training and inhibition.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I live in the sticks. So I actually drive into town (kind of small village, but has sidewalks) or drive to the bike trail to walk dogs. Even when I lived in town though, I rode my bicycle all through the sticks. So when I met that dobe, it was definitely after midnight and I was 8 miles from anywhere. There were no cell phones then either, or at least, not for the likes of me. When I rode to Dunkirk, NY, from Denmark, Oh, one of the ladies from the Rape Crisis Center gave me this cellular phone that was the sized of the old rotary phone receiver. Big and heavy to carry with me, and the only think it could have done was dialed 9-1-1, where there was 9-1-1. Sigh, and nowadays my dad worries about me if I leave my cell phone at their house. We've come a long way.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

selzer said:


> I live in the sticks. So I actually drive into town (kind of small village, but has sidewalks) or drive to the bike trail to walk dogs. Even when I lived in town though, I rode my bicycle all through the sticks. So when I met that dobe, it was definitely after midnight and I was 8 miles from anywhere. There were no cell phones then either, or at least, not for the likes of me. When I rode to Dunkirk, NY, from Denmark, Oh, one of the ladies from the Rape Crisis Center gave me this cellular phone that was the sized of the old rotary phone receiver. Big and heavy to carry with me, and the only think it could have done was dialed 9-1-1, where there was 9-1-1. Sigh, and nowadays my dad worries about me if I leave my cell phone at their house. We've come a long way.


OH my god that's actually scary to be so isolated late at night. Where did that dog come from? That makes it even creepier. I think the "old" technology for my generation is like a pager. I remember my parents had one and couldn't figure out what it was for. The world has seriously come a long way! That's nice that the lady from the Crisis center gave you a phone, those kinds of places are always so helpful! My mom definitely gets angry when I forget to bring my phone when I go walk Fern or go anywhere really.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I remember pagers, but never knew anyone that had one. Wouldn't help on one of my bike rides. I liked riding at night, and often all night long. I would ride to the state's border about 25 miles away and back, sometimes I would ride to the various towns and cities in the county. We're the biggest county in Ohio with I think the fewest people. At least, the fewest people per square mile. When I was 18, I got stopped in Geneva (about 14 miles from home) for riding at night. He said I had to have lights on the bike. Ok. Then he asked me how I was going to go back home. I said, I was going to ride the bike. He let me go. The cop in N. Kingsville (about 18 miles away) though, stopped me, and I did have lights. He refused to look at my ID. He demanded to call my parents. And wake them up. At 4AM. There were no cell phones, so he had to radio to the sherriff's department, the Sherriff's department called my dad. Do you know where your daughter is? No, but she is probably somewhere with her bike. How old is she? 18. Oh I am so sorry for bothering you.... LOL. I loved being out at night, alone. The dog probably was just allowed to run loose at night. I have been chased by several. Usually they have a set distance that they will follow. That one wanted ankle. And it wasn't going to stop. I never was bitten riding my bike, but that one came close.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm on various local FB groups where they post pics of lost pets and it's crazy how many dogs are posted there all year round (and I live in a quite rural area). Including big breeds and individuals that may be quite dangerous in some situations...
I'm actually surprised that so few accidents happen.
Just on the farm where I lived before we recently moved closer to the village, we've had 2 huskies, a , a Shih Tzu and a GSD.
The Shih Tzu was fun (I got some pics of my partner walking him on leash, the scene looked so cute I started to think I may get one for him just because they complimented each other so nicely lol).
The Huskies I couldn't approach at all, too skittish. I also got scared for my neighbor's chickens and called her to check her coop was locked.
The GSD I found out, was a great boy (only a couple years old) in a terrible situation, with a terrible owner who nearly let him choke to death on a chain 😡
Fortunately, a bunch of neighbors managed to convince him to let him go to a new home after that.
I've been lucky enough to never come across really agressive strays until now, so fingers crossed!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

One of my closest friends told me about a very traumatic event that happened 15 years ago, where 2 Dobermann came out of nowhere on a desert beach and attacked her dog. She told me with much detail what she saw, how she felt, and how she ended up kicking and trying to smash the dog's head with a rock to save her dog's life. And she fortunately did.
I wasn't there and still think about it today as THE horror story.
So I'm pretty sure I'd need therapy to get back on my feet if something like that happened to me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You'd be amazed how you can handle traumatic events. I amazed all the time. While I lived in the sticks there have been some strays or uncontrolled dogs. Besides the current neighbors who got an e-fence to contain theirs and how they are _so _much better than me, , one of the former had a husky bitch that tried to give birth in my shed, and I felt bad after the fact that I didn't realize it and chased her off. She had her babies in an igloo with no bottom and straw and somehow all 4 survived (she had them in January in 10 degree weather. I know it had no bottom because in Feb, the big wind came and blew it over the ravine. I banged on the back door, no one came, so I climbed down into the ravine and hit some mud slides and grabbed a tree so I wouldn't go into the river and spent a couple hours calling. Finally an Amish fellow in his timber lot heard the dogs and came to investigate, said he never heard me. He got a rope and I climbed out. He then walked down and brought up the igloo. 

The puppies lived there for about 6 months, and one day two were killed in the road on the same day. At that point I accepted the black puppy, and got him his shots, and then I got him neutered, and healed and I turned him into the shelter. He was a border collie/husky mix and barked constantly. But I did not want or need the dog. I know that's terrible and the people at the shelter think I'm an jerk, but I did not want him to get killed in the road. They were pleasantly surprised that he was neutered (our shelter is not gov. run and they have no money, I don't either, but I thought it would help him get a home, if they do not have to pay for the neuter, they can let them go for $25-$50). They did say that they had a guy that loved border collies and they thought they had a home for him. I think the brown puppy was already killed in the road before the two in one day. 

But these people had a coonhound that they kept changed because he was valuable to them. And they had a ridgeback that would attack my dogs every time I tried to take one somewhere. He never connected, but it was a near thing getting mine to the explorer and in. So I called the dog warden at the time, he went out to talk to them. I called the sheriff and they told me to shoot the dog, IF it came at me, not if it came at my dogs. So they were telling me what to say to the deputies when I shot the dog. I did not shoot the dog. I called the dog warden again and he told me to take pictures. I did take pictures, but my bitch was inside with a diaper on and he was outside, and of course your going to get gentlemen callers when your bitch is in heat. So she was in the picture and I knew enough not to even bother. Finally the kids told me they had to keep him tied because he was attacking their dogs. "Ya think?" They moved and I was pretty happy. But I think she lost her place and she had 4 kids and I did feel bad for her. 

Then there was the border collie. I looked down mowing my lawn and there was this purebred border collie loping along next to my mower. I stopped and went to my other neighbor, a friend, and asked him if it was Tom Moisio's dog. He said it might be. He said that he woke up with the dog in his bed this morning. He explained the kids were home from Africa, and they left the garage door open, and the dog just came in, went upstairs and got into bed with Ron. LOL. The owner was Tom Moisio who had a farm about a mile down the road. He told me that the dog was terrified of storms and it was storming that day, so he ran off. 

And there was the black dog of a certain ethnic breed, that I caught and called the new dog warden. She's really good. She came up and picked the dog up and put him in her truck. I was feeling all proud of catching him and putting a leash on him, but I never would have dared to pick him up. LOL. Other than that, and taking the Amish guy's beagle out of the road, we really don't have a lot of stray/uncontrolled dogs in the area. Cars drive around that curve at 70mph, and people figure it out quick that if they want to have a dog, they have to keep it out of the road. I killed a beagle coming down my road, she shot out of a ditch and there was no way to stop. I called the sherriff, and they sent the OHP, and they got the name off the tag on the collar (I did not see a tag it was screwed on). We waited for the guy to drive down on a piece of farm equipment and carried her away. The trooper spent the time trying to call vets, he said more than once he was surprised I called. I said I have dogs. I wanted him to shoot her, so she would not suffer. But he wouldn't. He told the guy what vet was open and where, but the guy said the dog wasn't going to make it, she got out of her kennel. I felt terrrible, but sometimes there is no stopping.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, what a dramatic thread!!

@Hopps your town sounds rough!  I can see how that would put anybody in a defensive state of mind.

The Class sounds like a great idea, and I think it will be nice for you to meet other people who tend to be "good owners", caring and responsible for their dogs.

The dog owner you are today, will not be the dog owner you are a few years from now. I see it in myself, and my relaxed "old-timer" attitude can be seen in my dog, who ambles with a bored expression past dogs saying "I'm gonna kill you!!" It was me clutching the leash and running across the street with my own crazy dog 3 -4 years ago...

Normally I will just let a playful offleash dog say a brief "Hi" and then I will make my dog walk on. That's because my guy doesn't have a lot of patience with random stranger dog play and will start growling if the encounter goes on too long. If the offleash dog gets obnoxious and persistent (like this one was, with Fern!) I will scold/shout at the dog, Rumo will growl. When owners hear me shouting or my dog growling, that's generally the cue where they run up and drag their dog away. Some dogs will rush out barking insanely, like they're out for blood...but once they get up to your dog, they will just circle around and sniff noses and crotches and all is well. But I do expect an owner to be apologetic about their out-of-control canine, not smirk about it! ( And look out for sneaky owners who secretly want their dog to meet yours, so they release their retractable leash just as your dog goes by...we had one of those just yesterday. )

Fern sounds like a sweet dog. Good that she wasn't really hurt by the nips and as time passes, you'll hopefully look back on this as "just another crazy encounter". ( Rumo was once bitten on the nose by a crazy offleash chihuahua - I was furious and his nose was bleeding...but, his nose healed...and life went on...)

You will get better at untangling the leash! You will see dog owners moving in a circular harmonized motion, like dancing...or one of us will just drop the leash and pick it up again a few seconds later. (That's usually me...Rumo is terrified of losing me and will never run away. You may find that Fern, who is also a rescue, is also disinclined to run away.)


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

GSDchoice said:


> Wow, what a dramatic thread!!
> 
> @Hopps your town sounds rough!  I can see how that would put anybody in a defensive state of mind.
> 
> ...


Yeah it definitely can be tough! It's definitely a different demographic compared to where I came from. I learned very quickly that there's a lot of closeted racists sprinkled around. Due to the start of gentrification, there is a very odd mix of people. 

I"m definitely excited for group class and I'm reading through all the trainers that offer it. 

I've become a much better dog owner compared to when I was younger and like you said I hope to become a great dog owner! Fern deserves so much and I'm trying my best to make a lot of changes 

I found that people that secretly want Fern to interact with their dogs are small dog owners. It weird that you bring it up because it happened a few days ago. They saw us coming couple hundred feet away and they "accidentally" let the dog pull towards us. It was really awkward but I had to make a quick right turn to avoid them, into the long grass area. now I have bug bites on my legs haha!

I did have another experience with a bully breed dog and the owner was super apologetic about his dog charging at me. He was super quick about getting his dog on the leash, untangling both of ours and promptly leaving. 

Unfortunately, Fern has become more reactive these days. I feel like time is running out on finding a group class since she is seemingly getting worse but we'll see! I think most of it has to do with my anxiety when seeing another dog so hopefully I can become more confident as time goes


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Yea, Fern may be picking up on your mood...tightening of leash, change in your breathing and voice, etc? I know it's hard to control, but learning some training techniques (such as the one we learned, "Look at Me", which I used when passing other dogs) will help you feel more confident and also give both of you something to think about/work on instead of focusing on the other dogs.

For group class, maybe a smaller group (6-8 dogs max?) with lots of space, or maybe held outdoors could work? (Plenty of space to be off to the side, not too close to the others). Good luck!!!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@Hopps Learning how to walk and relax will go a long way. This class could be SO good for you! The more I read your posts the more I realize that could have a real positive impact on your life in general, not just on dog matters. We all deserve to be able to walk around peacefully and feel calm.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

GSDchoice said:


> Yea, Fern may be picking up on your mood...tightening of leash, change in your breathing and voice, etc? I know it's hard to control, but learning some training techniques (such as the one we learned, "Look at Me", which I used when passing other dogs) will help you feel more confident and also give both of you something to think about/work on instead of focusing on the other dogs.
> 
> For group class, maybe a smaller group (6-8 dogs max?) with lots of space, or maybe held outdoors could work? (Plenty of space to be off to the side, not too close to the others). Good luck!!!


I've started doing LAT training and it's had a lot of positive impact on both of us! I've pretty much become a robot when it comes to avoiding dogs and that might be an issue. I make distance and just walk past the dogs but acting like a cold robot doesn't seem to help Fern at all. My mum, on the other hand, tells Fern "it's ok. calm down" when Fern starts her signals and it works for her. Luckily all dog owners are pretty understanding because they either have a reactive dog or had one at some point. 

We had a few set backs but I still go out everyday thinking it will be better, even by 1% 

Luckily because of COVID a lot of the group classes downsized like crazy! There's a few options here since I can't drive far out. But regardless I'm feeling very positive about all of it.


Chloé&Buck said:


> @Hopps Learning how to walk and relax will go a long way. This class could be SO good for you! The more I read your posts the more I realize that could have a real positive impact on your life in general, not just on dog matters. We all deserve to be able to walk around peacefully and feel calm.


I've definitely been very successful in being more relaxed and getting the dog really threw me in for a loop. Since getting Fern I've given up almost everything I loved doing but Fern also became my hobby! It was hard to adjust to having a dog but with the help of my family I've gotten better. The dog aggression has been a huge setback to my mental well being unfortunately. Being afflicted with quite a few chronic illnesses makes life harder than it needs to be. Fern is pushing me in a lot of ways and now that I'm adjusting to having her its been wondeful. I'm much more active and occupied which helps with a lot of things. Having Fern went from being a thorn in my side to a blessing!


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

When my daughter was a early teen she loved to walk our GSD. He was well trained and listened to her very well. We had a family that lived down the street who had a mixed breed dog that was very aggressive to any dog that walked down the street. He was never on the leash. I gave my daughter a small air horn that I kept on our boat. she was walking down the block and the owners let their dog out. It ran stright for our dog. My daughter held the air horn down low and aimed it at the dog as it got close. She pressed the horn several times in long blast. The dog about fell down trying to turn around to get away.My daughter told me that when she goes on a walk and the dogs sees her most of the times it just stays in it's yard or if one of the family members are out side they get the dog and put it in their house. I sorry to hear you are having problems with some bigots . You can't fix stupid.Good luck


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

gtaroger said:


> When my daughter was a early teen she loved to walk our GSD. He was well trained and listened to her very well. We had a family that lived down the street who had a mixed breed dog that was very aggressive to any dog that walked down the street. He was never on the leash. I gave my daughter a small air horn that I kept on our boat. she was walking down the block and the owners let their dog out. It ran stright for our dog. My daughter held the air horn down low and aimed it at the dog as it got close. She pressed the horn several times in long blast. The dog about fell down trying to turn around to get away.My daughter told me that when she goes on a walk and the dogs sees her most of the times it just stays in it's yard or if one of the family members are out side they get the dog and put it in their house. I sorry to hear you are having problems with some bigots . You can't fix stupid.Good luck


Sounds like your daughter did! Good for her!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

gtaroger said:


> When my daughter was a early teen she loved to walk our GSD. He was well trained and listened to her very well. We had a family that lived down the street who had a mixed breed dog that was very aggressive to any dog that walked down the street. He was never on the leash. I gave my daughter a small air horn that I kept on our boat. she was walking down the block and the owners let their dog out. It ran stright for our dog. My daughter held the air horn down low and aimed it at the dog as it got close. She pressed the horn several times in long blast. The dog about fell down trying to turn around to get away.My daughter told me that when she goes on a walk and the dogs sees her most of the times it just stays in it's yard or if one of the family members are out side they get the dog and put it in their house. I sorry to hear you are having problems with some bigots . You can't fix stupid.Good luck


Nice! I wonder, did you get your dog desensitized to the air horn before using it on the neighbor's dog?


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

gtaroger said:


> When my daughter was a early teen she loved to walk our GSD. He was well trained and listened to her very well. We had a family that lived down the street who had a mixed breed dog that was very aggressive to any dog that walked down the street. He was never on the leash. I gave my daughter a small air horn that I kept on our boat. she was walking down the block and the owners let their dog out. It ran stright for our dog. My daughter held the air horn down low and aimed it at the dog as it got close. She pressed the horn several times in long blast. The dog about fell down trying to turn around to get away.My daughter told me that when she goes on a walk and the dogs sees her most of the times it just stays in it's yard or if one of the family members are out side they get the dog and put it in their house. I sorry to hear you are having problems with some bigots . You can't fix stupid.Good luck


That also sounds like a good idea since it doesn't really harm the other dog! A lot of the dog owners that frequent the park already sees me as a crazy person, I might as well lean into it.


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

No we didn't desensitize our dog. Crystal told me he jumped a little and looked at like whats go on. Didn't seem to bother him that much


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