# Barked/snapped at a stranger



## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Finn and I were at Lowes just doing some training and walking around. I've been trying to get him ready for the CGC coming up soon. Typically I don't let strangers pet him because he tends to get too excited and will jump up. So usually when we're out and about I just make him focus on being calm and ignoring people. But the greeter by the entrance wanted to meet him and I figured ok this a good time as any since it's part of the test, so I told her I'd make a lap around the store and if he was a good and calm I'd bring him back so she could pet him. So we walked around he did awesome heeled nicely stayed with me the whole time. Super calm the entire time. So I make it back to the lady and put him in a down/stay and chit chatted for a bit just to make him wait a bit more (he loves getting attention from people)..... then.. this guy comes by and "Awwhh can I pet him?" As he reaches down to pet him anyway -.- ... Finn broke his downstay sat up into his pet.. in the split second before I could say "no you can't/Finn down" (because he sat up) he went from enjoying the pat on the head to jumped back and started barking and even kinda snapped at the mans hand. He kind of jumped away from the guy, he liked jumped back towards me. Didn't last long he quieted down within a few seconds of the incident and laid back down.. for the split second before he freaked out his body posture didn't seem defensive or aggressive, he sat up so the guy could pet him he didn't look stiff or rigid he seemed really relaxed, tongue out panting like his usual happy self when someone pets him. It was like a good few seconds of petting before he flipped out. And that was the first time that's ever happened... like I said before his big problem was giving too much love back, jumping up licking etc... he's been petted before from people not total strangers though people he's met a least a few times before they touched him. Idk he's never gone through any fear period either so I'm not sure if that's what this is either.. OR because I freaked out because the guy went to put him before I gave the ok and felt kind of panicky at the moment before it happened and I wonder if Finn felt that and thought the guy was not friendly or something


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

It could be that he felt your energy on the other end of the leash and then acted the way he did.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

That's kind of what of what I was thinking.. idk I get really anxious sometimes in those situations. And I'm sure he felt it that time.


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## Casto (Jun 18, 2016)

Thoughts are energy and it transfers faster than we can imagine. I stress on a clear and calm head as a handler. Some times these things don't have a clear explanation. Also, he prolly realized HE BROKE HIS command and his stress levels went up... maybe. I think you will be fine though. Just keep a handle on him.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Yeah definitely. I can be a a little bit anxious talking to strangers. And yeah he did have a "oh crap" moment when he broke his command. He looked right at me and went back into his down after the few barks came out. And it wasn't a nasty snarly bark but like a bark when someone's at the door type. Mostly concerned with the little snap he made at the guy. The man wasn't phased a bit though he was like oops guess not laughed and went on his way.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Milliegsd said:


> That's kind of what of what I was thinking.. idk I get really anxious sometimes in those situations. And I'm sure he felt it that time.


i had the same problem...once the trainer showed me to be cam and relaxed it was AMAZING the difference!


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

We go into lowes a few times a week to keep up with constant socialization with strangers. We meet our trainer there so he can help out and watch kona during her interactions. It really helps out. 

Try going again but be CALM and CONFIDENT!


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

Also when the dog is in a "down" that is a submission position, so if the stranger just reached down over the dogs head your dog could have felt threatened. I would prefer to put the dog in a "sit" for petting. But I totally know what you mean about strangers just reaching out lol happens every day for me.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Aww yeah. We usually go out a few times but I never stop and actually talk to anyone. On very rare occasions if I'm feeling relaxed. At our class he gets loved on by the trainers and people that we're friends with there no problem. But I suppose he's just used to them by now and I'm pretty calm and confident when I'm at class when talking to others. Haha sounds like I just have to work on myself. I'll bring it up to my trainer though and see we can do what you did, that would make me feel more comfortable.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Yeah the guy did a total drive by pet which drives me nuts lol and that makes sense! The woman I was going to let pet him I was about to make him sit up so she could pet him but the guy came by reached out and then Finn broke his down and sat up and then made contact with his hand before I could say anything. He petted his head for 2 or 3 seconds before he jumped


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

konathegsd said:


> We go into lowes a few times a week to keep up with constant socialization with strangers. We meet our trainer there so he can help out and watch kona during her interactions. It really helps out.
> 
> Try going again but be CALM and CONFIDENT!


Explain how you socialize with strangers?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

it takes a great deal of concentration and restraint for a dog to be in a down stay (training stages)

do't have people approach or pet them in that position - it creates tension for the dog -- and then it depends on the threshold of your dog to endure tension 

he sat up - movement broke that tension -- he was enjoying the pat on the head -- and then you threw the book at him and loaded him with tension - your verbal correction 

in this down stay picture the dog is not relaxed -- he is plastered to the floor - feels compelled - concentrating - trying hard -- you can see the tension
a relaxed confident down has the dog offering the behaviour and looking like -- 







Nicholas learning -


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

I couldn't load the first video. But no the picture he does look a little tense I think it was mostly because I was telling him to look at me and stop licking the floor. We were in the back with no one was near us. But thats not how was laying down when I was talking to the lady. His head was up just watching us talk, he looked more like the picture below as far as body language. And yeah maybe I should of put him more behind me, he was kind of just laying down next to me. But like I said it kind of just happened


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Before I could say anything, actually really didn't see the guy because I was looking down at Finn the whole time I saw him sit up first before I even saw the guy, didn't even see his face actually


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

He can offer relaxed confident down he only does that tense look like the picture if he was distracted by the ground and I tell him to stop which is only sometimes


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Leaning over to pet a dog is a really bad idea. Leaning over a dog in a down to pet it is an even worse idea. Some dogs do not like and will not tolerate a stranger leaning over them. 

Most dogs really do not enjoy a stranger putting their hands all over their ears, eyes, nose and mouth. When I am training new handlers or at a seminar I will go up to several people and "face palm" them and rub my hand all over their head, face and ears and mess up their hair. The reaction is usually shock on the part of the people that I do it to and laughter from everyone else. Then I ask,"You don't like that, do you?" The response is always, "No, I don't like that." I say "Good, your dog doesn't like it either! Don't do that again." I find it funny to do it to the biggest guys standing there and watch their reaction. 

Another thing that will set some dogs off is eye contact. Staring at a dog then leaning over it is a good way to get bit. It is also a good way for your dog to bite some one. Keep in mind, most people are really not that bright and do not know any better. At every demo I do there is always one person that asks to pet my dog. I say "No, liability reasons, he's not friendly, etc." I give a host of reasons and the response I get a lot is "All dogs love me, he won't bite me." Those are the worst people to try to explain anything to, they just don't get it. 

@Milliegsd, you need to be very careful with your dog in public. You know now that he will bite someone. I didn't read what you did to correct the inappropriate aggression, but your dog should have been given a stern correction, one for breaking the down and one for the inappropriate aggression. You also have to be hyper vigilant with your dog. There is no excuse for a dog in training to break a down and certainly none for him to bite some one at Lowe's. You need to be very situationally aware and be sure to not allow this to happen again. Overall, you were very fortunate, this could have been much worse.

He is a really good looking dog, BTW.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> konathegsd said:
> 
> 
> > We go into lowes a few times a week to keep up with constant socialization with strangers. We meet our trainer there so he can help out and watch kona during her interactions. It really helps out.
> ...


I walk her around the store and approach people and ask them if they would like to say hi to kona. I then inform them to pet her under the chin. I wouldn't recommend this for most dogs but in the start I would have strangers give her a treat. This worked amazing for me, but every dog is different. I now have a dog who is aloof but enjoys being pet by strangers.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Slamdunc said:


> @Milliegsd, you need to be very careful with your dog in public. You know now that he will bite someone. I didn't read what you did to correct the inappropriate aggression, but your dog should have been given a stern correction, one for breaking the down and one for the inappropriate aggression. You also have to be hyper vigilant with your dog. There is no excuse for a dog in training to break a down and certainly none for him to bite some one at Lowe's. You need to be very situationally aware and be sure to not allow this to happen again. Overall, you were very fortunate, this could have been much worse.
> 
> He is a really good looking dog, BTW.


Now I'm not trying to make excuses for him. I know there's no reason for any of what he did. I was frustrated. Because usually I don't put him or me in those situations like I said we usually go in mind our business and come out and the times he has been petted before he was always in a sit not being leaned over and the person wasn't being weird with their hands all over his face. So generally I think I was just in shock when it happened because it's never happened before and I'd say I'm inexperienced in these types of situations so I did not react fast enough. I just gave him a firm no he knocked it off didn't even look back the guy. He had his ecollar on but I didn't have the remote in my had because I was practicing running through everything without relying on it for the CGC. And yes I know I'm lucky. It could of been worse. So now I'm stuck between avoiding all people or trying it again. He never had this kind of problem he just had a too exciting he likes to jump on people when meeting them issue.


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## BigHemi45 (May 10, 2016)

No head petting! My guy doesn't even like when I do it, which I try not to, but he will tolerate it from me. He would very much not like a stranger touching his head or standing over him.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@slamdunc thank you though, I always do end up telling people he can't be petted for such reasons I just thought I'd work on him being calm and sitting for someone and I guess I got too focused on the person in front of me and really didn't see the guy come up, most people were being respectful and just walking by but there's always that one person you have to watch out for


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

The snapping would worry me...if you try it again I would use a muzzle if you can.


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## konathegsd (Dec 3, 2016)

I would mostly be concerned with what if that guy happened to be a young child?? You know children down know and tend to just run up to a dog and pet it.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

konathegsd said:


> The snapping would worry me...if you try it again I would use a muzzle if you can.


 honestly I would only feel comfortable trying again at our group class. But then I feel like it wouldn't be the same because he's pretty friendly with everyone there even new people the show up. I'll have to talk to my trainer and see what we can do.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

konathegsd said:


> I would mostly be concerned with what if that guy happened to be a young child?? You know children down know and tend to just run up to a dog and pet it.


 we actually had that happen, awhile back we were at an outdoor patio and this guy shoved a two year old right in his direction "hey he looks like so and so" he was laying at my feet but I got between the little kid and told them how dangerous that is to shove a baby towards a strange dog they don't know. Finn didnt break his down he was calm. Later they came back and asked to pet him the proper way and he did fine even with the little kid. He wasn't overly excited nothing.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Milliegsd said:


> honestly I would only feel comfortable trying again at our group class. But then I feel like it wouldn't be the same because he's pretty friendly with everyone there even new people the show up. I'll have to talk to my trainer and see what we can do.


Gsds don't need to be petted. Just teach him strangers are to be ignored. They are supposed to be aloof of strangers. It could be a stressful thing for a gsd.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@cloudpump generally that's what I say too. I don't take him to be petted by everyone and he does a good job ignoring people as well. But it's one of tests for the CGC is sit politely while being petted. Literally the only reason why I practice it a few times. It's not my intention for everyone to pet him. Only that for the rare time he is that he can sit still and not jump on someone. Otherwise I avoid people touching him at all costs lol


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## Nurse Bishop (Nov 20, 2016)

When I take Inga to such places as Lowe's or Home Despot it is to be proofed. I do not let any strangers pet her. In general I heel around with her very business like similar to a drill sargent. Folks make comments like 'I guess I can't pet your dog', or 'Shes in training, isn't she?'. In passing I smile and say thats right. I'm not friendly, don't stop to talk. 

Inga see's lots of strangers and children when I go to the super market. She is in a locked kennel cage in the back of my truck and I park near the door. She watches all the people calmly, running screaming kids and babies too. Folks come over to talk to her but don't try to pet her because they can't. She is calm and aloof. Shes sixteen months old and has come into her natural aloofness. I understand the CGC test but I just don't want any strangers petting my dog, its not OK. She learned not to jump on people a year ago. How old is your dog Miiliegsd?


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

The forced petting is why I abandoned pursuing a CGC with my first GSD. He clearly was not interested in strangers touching him and he certainly doesn't care what titles, if any, he has. So I guess my question would be, if you don't want strangers touching your dog, is the CGC really that important to you? If it is, that's totally fine, keep doing what you're doing. But sometimes it helps to take a step back and see if you are doing something for you or for your dog. Good luck, whatever you choose!


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Nurse Bishop said:


> When I take Inga to such places as Lowe's or Home Despot it is to be proofed. I do not let any strangers pet her. In general I heel around with her very business like similar to a drill sargent. Folks make comments like 'I guess I can't pet your dog', or 'Shes in training, isn't she?'. In passing I smile and say thats right. I'm not friendly, don't stop to talk.
> 
> Inga see's lots of strangers and children when I go to the super market. She is in a locked kennel cage in the back of my truck and I park near the door. She watches all the people calmly, running screaming kids and babies too. Folks come over to talk to her but don't try to pet her because they can't. She is calm and aloof. Shes sixteen months old and has come into her natural aloofness. I understand the CGC test but I just don't want any strangers petting my dog, its not OK. She learned not to jump on people a year ago. How old is your dog Miiliegsd?


 typically that's how I do it as well.. I don't stop for anyone and don't look at anyone because I don't wanna talk and don't want to explain why they can't pet Finn. I usually just focus on Finn and carry on with our business. He's very good at ignoirng people is becoming very aloof to people. But we stop and talk and the person shows personal interest in him he can get a little excited. He hasn't actually physically jumped on anyone since maybe 6-7 months, but he can get a little wiggly butt and likes to slowly lean into the person petting him. Except there is one friend that I recently told can't pet him anymore because he likes to get him to jump on him to which I told him I don't care if you like it when he does it I don't. He's 13 months, so should I just not worry about the CGC then? I mean honestly I don't like strangers petting my dog either but it's kind of part of the test?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Milliegsd said:


> I couldn't load the first video. But no the picture he does look a little tense I think it was mostly because I was telling him to look at me and stop licking the floor. We were in the back with no one was near us. But thats not how was laying down when I was talking to the lady. His head was up just watching us talk, he looked more like the picture below as far as body language. And yeah maybe I should of put him more behind me, he was kind of just laying down next to me. But like I said it kind of just happened


this picture shows the dog relaxed

licking the floor could have been your first clue that there was tension and the dog did some displacement activity -- and then you want him to stare at you and you correct him for trying to soothe himself - lol -- and then some guy comes along - "makes" him fail and you are on top of it .... and the dog gets pissed - blah - vent bark bark 

people will approach without reading the dog -- had he been down like your first picture there is no way someone should have approached him -- breaking his concentration 

second picture you give is nice !


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

GypsyGhost said:


> The forced petting is why I abandoned pursuing a CGC with my first GSD. He clearly was not interested in strangers touching him and he certainly doesn't care what titles, if any, he has. So I guess my question would be, if you don't want strangers touching your dog, is the CGC really that important to you? If it is, that's totally fine, keep doing what you're doing. But sometimes it helps to take a step back and see if you are doing something for you or for your dog. Good luck, whatever you choose!


Well before this, he enjoyed getting petted from people. He always got too excited so I limited who pet him and pet when, mainly just wanted him to focus on me when we're out and about. But he never acted like he didn't like, he never reacted the way he did before. I, personally, just don't like stopping for people. It makes me anxious. But for the test I didn't want to limit him from passing something if it was something that my fault that I could fix. If that makes sense? But if he now doesn't care people petting and he doesn't like it at all I don't mind not doing the CGC anymore


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Milliegsd said:


> Well before this, he enjoyed getting petted from people. He always got too excited so I limited who pet him and pet when, mainly just wanted him to focus on me when we're out and about. But he never acted like he didn't like, he never reacted the way he did before. I, personally, just don't like stopping for people. It makes me anxious. But for the test I didn't want to limit him from passing something if it was something that my fault that I could fix. If that makes sense? But if he now doesn't care people petting and he doesn't like it at all I don't mind not doing the CGC anymore


I get it. I don't like being stopped by people, either. One of the many reasons I got a GSD! 

And I understand wanting to put a CGC on your dog. In theory, it shows that your dog has a nice temperament. The problem is it's better suited for other breeds. I'm not saying a GSD can't or shouldn't get a CGC. Many have them. It started off being really important to me, until I realized I was asking my dog to do something for a test that I didn't want him to do in real life.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Milliegsd said:


> honestly I would only feel comfortable trying again at our group class. But then I feel like it wouldn't be the same because he's pretty friendly with everyone there even new people the show up. I'll have to talk to my trainer and see what we can do.


Good, he should not be petted by a complete stranger again for a good period. Once you practice in your group classes, and it is always done in the sitting position, and the dog is giving no more indications of nervous energy or aggressiveness in these situation, then maybe you can set up some meet and greets outside of class, but hopefully with people that are not nervous, and who will listen and do what you want. 

How old is he?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well , yes and no to some of the comments 

the gsd is not to be mauled , does not attract attention -- so the basic temperament -- 

he sat up seeking out attention -- to get the pat on the head -- you say as a youngster he was so excited to socialize with people 

okay -- French ring campagne trials -- you start your evaluation by presenting yourself to the judge 

hello I am xxx.x.xx. and this is my dog x.x.x.x. and then you show the papers which record his statistics and tattoo number

the judge surrounded by a virtual committee , his interpretor and his scribe approach the dog and the judge will handle the ear and look to ascertain that the tattoo and the paperwork match - first test is one of impartiality

the judge is not a threat -- 

no equipment - no collars - you are given your first instruction and off you go


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@selzer Yeah, odd thing is just that morning we had a class and one of the ladies that I talk to there frequently (she also has a gsd), asked to pet Finn and she did and he stayed on his butt, took a treat from her and was fine and actually the week before that he greeted another girl too at class that asked and did fine, little excited but that was it. He does fine in class! Thats really the only place im comfortable with letting people pet him, IF I do let them at all. Thats the weird part. Never ever has shown any inappropriate aggression before this. 

He's 13 months


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

carmspack said:


> well , yes and no to some of the comments
> 
> the gsd is not to be mauled , does not attract attention -- so the basic temperament --
> 
> he sat up seeking out attention -- to get the pat on the head -- you say as a youngster he was so excited to socialize with people


As youngster, yes and even still up until it what happened he generally likes receiving attention from people when I allow it. He never looked uncomfortable with anyone before, he's never even so much as barked at someone when they come through the front door. He'll whine instead wanting to go and greet them. (He's on place when people come over)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

don't have the public giving treats -- that throws confusion into the dog --- friend , not friend ?

answer is neutral --


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@carmspack ok, it only happened once (receiving treat) but I"ll know better for next time


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Maybe instead of the cgc you can try for a German Shepherd temperament test. I don't know what it all entails. I am sure some people on here do. A couple of the girls from club went down to Indy a month or so ago and got their dogs tested. They said it was fun. But maybe a pet is expected there also. 
I don't have advice on the lowe's thing. But if you were set on the cgc I would find out where they were held. A field, building. And then work within those areas. Shouldn't take long before you and your dog are confident and calm enough to be OK with a stranger petting in that place.


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## cdwoodcox (Jul 4, 2015)

Or maybe others can recommend obedience titles that don't require a lot of stranger interaction.


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## Bjax (Nov 23, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Gsds don't need to be petted. Just teach him strangers are to be ignored. They are supposed to be aloof of strangers. It could be a stressful thing for a gsd.


 
Unfortunately dogs are going to be petted whether you give permission or not. That's what happened in this case. The guy asked but he didn't wait for an answer. Sometime they don't even ask. What are you supposed to do short of body blocking the offender and likely reinforcing a negative perception of strangers on your dog?


I think we're forgetting that the real purpose of the CGC isn't to get your dog another title. It's supposed to represent a base set of skills necessary for your dog to safety function in public. As our society currently is, one of those skills to accept (not necessary enjoy) being petted by a stranger. This doesn't mean to let everyone who wants to pet your dog, but I also don't think the answer is to not try to condition a dog to accept pets as long as it can be done safety. Some dogs have to be bubble dogs for public safety, but I believe most dogs will be safer if they are conditioned to be petted because you will not always be able to stop the pet.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Milliegsd said:


> this guy comes by and "Awwhh can I pet him?" As he reaches down to pet him anyway -.- ... Finn broke his downstay sat up into his pet.. in the split second before I could say "no you can't/Finn down" (because he sat up) he went from enjoying the pat on the head to jumped back and started barking and even kinda snapped at the mans hand.


Been there recently myself......with a more "dramatic" outcome.....I received some good advice from a particular forum member.......basically...we had exceeded our training/command and control....acknowledge it....train at a higher level if desired......sound advice IMO.

SuperG


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Bjax said:


> Unfortunately dogs are going to be petted whether you give permission or not. That's what happened in this case. The guy asked but he didn't wait for an answer. Sometime they don't even ask. What are you supposed to do short of body blocking the offender and likely reinforcing a negative perception of strangers on your dog?
> 
> 
> I think we're forgetting that the real purpose of the CGC isn't to get you dog another title. It's supposed to represent a base set of skills necessary for your dog to safety function in public. As our society currently is, one of those skills to accept (not necessary enjoy) being petted by a stranger. This doesn't mean to let everyone who wants to pet your dog, but I also don't think the answer is to not try to condition a dog to accept pets as long as it can be done safety. Some dogs have to be bubble dogs for public safety, but I believe most dogs will be safer if they are conditioned to be petted because you will not always be able to stop the pet.


I have to disagree. I've not had to body block. But I've got no issues saying no. Some dogs can't be conditioned to be petted.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

SuperG said:


> Been there recently myself......with a more "dramatic" outcome.....I received some good advice from a particular forum member.......basically...we had exceeded our training/command and control....acknowledge it....train at a higher level if desired......sound advice IMO.
> 
> SuperG


Any word on how that guy is?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

cloudpump said:


> Any word on how that guy is?


He seems to be just fine.......plus he's a "ahhhh it's only a flesh wound" type as well as salt of the earth....I sent him a case of steaks instead of a bottle of tequila....Since he is a gentleman......he responded as such.....I'm lucky.....but the event has not gone unheeded....

SuperG


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cloudpump said:


> I have to disagree. I've not had to body block. But I've got no issues saying no. Some dogs can't be conditioned to be petted.


 If a dog can't be touched they don't belong in public places like stores or eating places. People here ar saying dogs don't need to be petted. They don't need to be in Lowes either.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

cdwoodcox said:


> Maybe instead of the cgc you can try for a German Shepherd temperament test. I don't know what it all entails. I am sure some people on here do. A couple of the girls from club went down to Indy a month or so ago and got their dogs tested. They said it was fun. But maybe a pet is expected there also.
> I don't have advice on the lowe's thing. But if you were set on the cgc I would find out where they were held. A field, building. And then work within those areas. Shouldn't take long before you and your dog are confident and calm enough to be OK with a stranger petting in that place.


I mean I'm not dead set on the cgc, but up until the lowes thing the only part of the test he struggled with was sitting politely while being petted, sometimes he'll sit nicely and then other times he gets too excited and doesnt sit as still as he should be. He would try and scoot closer to the person and rub up against them or jump up a little. He used to be horrible at jumping when he was younger but now not so much, he still gets excited sometimes (hence why I was working on it because it's the thing we practice the least) I'm open to other options though!


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

SuperG said:


> Been there recently myself......with a more "dramatic" outcome.....I received some good advice from a particular forum member.......basically...we had exceeded our training/command and control....acknowledge it....train at a higher level if desired......sound advice IMO.
> 
> SuperG


Awh sorry to hear that. Yeah essentially thats what we will do, it was never an issue before but now it is and we'll deal with it and learn from it so it dosent happen again. It was just hard for me to wrap my head around it


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Milliegsd said:


> sometimes he'll sit nicely and then other times he gets too excited and doesnt sit as still as he should be.


Then the dog is unreliable in that scenario.........if you choose to unwillingly release the dog to engage that situation.....your dog's "nature" will surface......you'll train/condition smarter going forward....I assume.

SuperG


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

SuperG said:


> Then the dog is unreliable in that scenario.........if you choose to unwillingly release the dog to engage that situation.....your dog's "nature" will surface......you'll train/condition smarter going forward....I assume.
> 
> SuperG


If he starts getting too excited I always tell the person to step back and stop petting him, I never let him get out of control so to speak. If he can't handle it, then no petting for him.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Jack's Dad said:


> If a dog can't be touched they don't belong in public places like stores or eating places. People here ar saying dogs don't need to be petted. They don't need to be in Lowes either.


I don't disagree about needing to be in confined spaces. But I don't feel I need to ok people to pet my dog.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

cloudpump said:


> I don't disagree about needing to be in confined spaces. But I don't feel I need to ok people to pet my dog.


Certainly, your dog your choice.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Milliegsd said:


> If he starts getting too excited I always tell the person to step back and stop petting him, I never let him get out of control so to speak. If he can't handle it, then no petting for him.


sounds like a decoy move -- dog gets frustrated - he has lost his booty - so watch his unwanted behaviour keep building with added anticipation of loosing 

so what to do ? the dog gets a correction - no uncertain terms 
you can't control the public -- you control the dog !

you said "He would try and scoot closer to the person and rub up against them or jump up a little. He used to be horrible at jumping when he was younger but now not so much, he still gets excited sometimes (hence why I was working on it because it's the thing we practice the least) I'm open to other options though!"

that is just so wrong for a GSD -- what was his early socialization like?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

This is still a puppy, in my reckoning. I consider them puppies up until 24 months and young adults through years 2 and 3. The reason is that they mature at different rates. usually a puppy recognizes strangers as strangers at around 4 months, and sometimes around 5 months sometimes around 10 months, they suddenly sometimes display suspicion of strangers. Some dogs don't display this suspicion at all. And some wait until 13 months or 15 months. 

If we are going to change course by eliminating learning opportunities, when our puppy goes from puppy to teenager, from teenager to young adult, then our dog will probably NEVER be reasonably safe anywhere but well within his bubble -- maybe at home, with no visitors. 

This doesn't have to be the case. 

I suggest finding a knowledgeable trainer, and have them evaluate the dog and evaluate your handling of the dog in a variety of situations. Have him help you change how you manage, train, lead this dog. A lot of the time when a dog takes charge and shows aggression in a non-threatening situation, it is because the dog does not feel confident in the owner, and is taking matters into his own teeth. 

A good trainer can give you tools, and actions to practice that can build the dog's confidence in you, and possibly in himself as well, that will make this scene completely unnecessary. 

Many young dogs go through a phase where they forget training, push their boundaries, or use a few butt-head statements to get what they want -- in this instance, distance. Some dogs come up the leash at their owner when corrected. Other dogs bark and lunge at other dogs or people. When a young dog displays a behavior we do not like, the first answer should not be, "the GSD is not a social animal, just keep him away form everyone." 

There are some things that if you are doing should be stopped, because they encourage the dog to rely on itself and protect itself, this would be playing with dogs that aren't yours in a dog-park setting or a doggy day care setting. If there are no behavioral issues, one can choose to continue using these things or not. If there are issues, and the dog is doing these things, I would stop them immediately.

A immediate and meaningful correction in the moment could have made a good impression. But if that has not happened, you can't go back and set it up and do it now. In fact, we don't want this dog to ever do such a thing again. 

But that doesn't mean we do nothing about it. We approach this several ways:

Management -- keep others safe, that keeps your pup safe, while you are training. This means, yes to be proactive, shove your body between an idiot and your dog if necessary. Anticipate people coming to pet your dog, and prevent it. But not with the intent of forever. This is just keeping the dog contained and under control (safe), while he learns to look to you to act, rather than to react.

Leadership -- it appears your dog made a poor decision, one he should not have made. If the dog sees you as a fearless leader, than he looks to you when he is uncertain in a situation. Trust me, there are times when little kids run up behind you and hug your dog while you are working on paying for your purchases. It happens quickly. If that dog isn't looking to you for how he should behave, that kid could be sporting some new stitching. NILIF -- Nothing In Life Is Free is a leadership style that helps first-time owners of dogs that need more leadership than they are used to providing to dogs. From what I understand, it is for the most part, non-confrontational methods, actions, that impress the dog that you are the leader. Google NILIF. It has helped lots of people with young dogs, become more effective leaders -- communicate with the dog. 

Training -- you are doing group classes. Good. Keep it up. You might want to add another night's training. Sometimes, something like this gives us an opportunity to evaluate how we are training and if we might be more effective if we change it up some. Training builds the bond by teaching us to communicate effectively with the dog, praising the dog for doing the right thing, and correcting the dog when he does not. Nothing violent. The dog becomes more relaxed because we master the training tools of consistency, following through, communication, timing, reasonable expectations, etc. 

Exercise -- yep, usually these troubles happen when a pup/young dog has a ton of energy, and doesn't have enough outlets, physical and mental to keep his brain and body worked. If you walk your dog every night, add some training sections to your walk. If you have only half an hour twice a day for exercise, improve the quality of the time you spend so that you are working the brain as well as the body. If you are giving him 60 minutes in 2 half-hours sections, try to up that to 3 30 minute sections, or two 45 minute, and make half of it body work -- running, swimming if possible, jumping, going through tunnels, chasing the ball, etc. The other half should be training, even in a typical walk, do some 360s, some 270s, some finishes, some downs, stays, changes in pace, etc. If at all possible, sign him up for an agility class and let them train you to train him on the equipment -- lots of praise and treats. Lot of success. 

Socialization -- I always hesitate on this one. Because way too many people start socializing way too soon, before the dog trusts them. They do too much too soon, and expect too much out of the dog. But the dog will not learn to be a good citizen in a vacuum. So, what you need to do is adjust your thinking on socialization. At first, while you are working on improving your leadership and training/communication, socialization is going to be taking the dog places and keeping people off of him -- the typical bubble dog. 

But as your dog matures, and as he becomes more relaxed in the new regime so to speak, there will be opportunities to decrease the bubble. There is no hurry. What your dog needs is successes. Agility, nosework, tracking, fly-ball -- these can be awesome venues for your dog to gain successes in training, which builds the bond between you and your dog. Suddenly, you realize your dog is looking to you, waiting for your cues. Then you know you are on your way. 

Good luck. I don't think your dog is all that abnormal, or that he will be a biter. It think you have some good information about his threshold, and getting a good trainer on board, and making some adjustments in how you handle the dog and how you train him, and he will mature into a great buddy. Look at this as a wake-up call.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

cloudpump said:


> I don't disagree about needing to be in confined spaces. But I don't feel I need to ok people to pet my dog.


but the public will -- intentionally and not - and the character of the GSD says he should tolerate , not seek out , not provoke , trustworthy, discriminating.

that is why I used my example of the French ring Campagne judge leaning over and handling the ear to read the tattoo . If the dog is tattooed in the groin , then the dog lays down and the judge moves in close to read the tattoo. 

at another big hustle bustle dog show there was a woman in a wheel chair and her caretaker that looked for me . The woman used to be a very actively involved GSD supporter - first schutzhund training in the Toronto area - loved GSD to death , and very saddened that all gsd at the show would spook or become defensive when she wanted to see them from her wheel chair.
One dog -- Kilo -- would be gentlemanly and take her affection . 
for those in the gsd at that time the lady was "Mitzi" , wonder if sunsilver may have known her .

Other example , two young dogs being prepared for LE -- friend and I go down to Kensington market , Spadina road with half the store spilling out onto the side walks . Total chaos . (near the El Mocambo for those that know Toronto) . Anyway there are people moving around like heated molecules - bags bumping the dogs , running up behind to pass , stopping and turning around suddenly .
At a stop light , we had the red light and so both dogs sit and wait . 
A little girl , probably 4 or 5 years gets out of her mother's hand holding , runs to the dog , encircles her arms around his neck and drops her body weight . The dog looked around , huh , oh its you , and that was it . Light changes. We walk on . 

That dog was Simon . He had been evaluated and wanted by LE . I let Strike go (Kawartha Lakes) and kept Simon -- son of a certified LE dog , half brother and brother to LE dogs and later on proud to say sire of LE dogs.
One of Saphire's favourites .


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@carmspack yes he does receive a correction for unwanted behavior, such as when he breaks his sit while being petted. And what do you mean by wrong? He likes people, as far as socialization goes he's always been around a variety of people, he's been out to stores and parks with no incidents. He's attended a group class since he was about 5 months. Never went through a fear period, he's always been stable, not nervous or anxious. Social interaction no I didn't just let people come up and pet him anytime all the time. No dog parks, no daycare. My friends never had any issues with him. He's generally excited to meet new people.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> If a dog can't be touched they don't belong in public places like stores or eating places. People here ar saying dogs don't need to be petted. They don't need to be in Lowes either.


Why should I allow any person who wants to touch my dog in a public place to do so? They don't need to touch. Many GSDs don't tolerate strangers touching them but are perfectly well behaved in stores. The breed is supposed to be aloof. They don't need to be manhandled by strangers. I didn't let strangers touch my children either.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Milliegsd said:


> @carmspack yes he does receive a correction for unwanted behavior, such as when he breaks his sit while being petted. And what do you mean by wrong? He likes people, as far as socialization goes he's always been around a variety of people, he's been out to stores and parks with no incidents. He's attended a group class since he was about 5 months. Never went through a fear period, he's always been stable, not nervous or anxious. Social interaction no I didn't just let people come up and pet him anytime all the time. No dog parks, no daycare. My friends never had any issues with him. He's generally excited to meet new people.


I use a private trainer and he said I was asking for trouble by letting my overly friendly dog greet strangers on his own. If he is sitting he stays there until he is given permission. GSDS are not supposed to be that friendly. Mine is not true to the standard.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

carmspack said:


> but the public will -- intentionally and not - and the character of the GSD says he should tolerate , not seek out , not provoke , trustworthy, discriminating.
> 
> that is why I used my example of the French ring Campagne judge leaning over and handling the ear to read the tattoo . If the dog is tattooed in the groin , then the dog lays down and the judge moves in close to read the tattoo.
> 
> ...


Yes a gsd should be sound temperamentally. Not a ticking time bomb. But if it makes me uncomfortable, I avoid it.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@selzer Finns pretty good about giving me his full focus, when I was talking to the women before the whole incident Finn sat politely in front of me giving me eye contact with his back towards the lady just waiting for me to give him direction (thats when we went and walked around the store). He doesn't go to dog parks or day care never has never will. Most dog interaction he has is with my older one, my moms dog, and then just the dogs at class which he ignores but has no issues being in close proximity with, doesnt break his focus. 

When the incident did happened after he realized he made a mistake he looked directly at me and stopped immediately. It literally was "bark snap bark bark" I corrected him and he turned to me, and he left it alone. 

Leadership I may need to work on more mostly like I stated earlier I do tend to panic and get anxious at times. Which in this situation is not what he needed me to do and I will do better to work on myself. 

Socialization wise I've always been alittle confused about especially here i feel like theres a mix of opinions on it. My thing was I need him to be neutral in all cases. Which up until that day he was. I don't need him to be petted by everyone but if god forbid somebody swipes a pet on him he can handle it. Which before the incident he could! Never an issue until that day

I found a trainer that I think will be of help to me. I was already looking into it.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

LuvShepherds said:


> I use a private trainer and he said I was asking for trouble by letting my overly friendly dog greet strangers on his own. If he is sitting he stays there until he is given permission. GSDS are not supposed to be that friendly. Mine is not true to the standard.


When I say he meets people, I meant generally in my home. I dont let him greet everybody out on the street. Honestly he's only done that maybe a handful of times if that, I can count on my fingers how many actual times I let someone greet him outside our home. He's aloof to strangers really could care less for them unless he sees them as "someone I'm friendly with" then hes like oh mom knows them theyre cool. But yeah he's not allowed to greet anyone unless I give him the ok to, I usually just have him sit next to my side.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Why should I allow any person who wants to touch my dog in a public place to do so? They don't need to touch. Many GSDs don't tolerate strangers touching them but are perfectly well behaved in stores. The breed is supposed to be aloof. They don't need to be manhandled by strangers. I didn't let strangers touch my children either.


If you don't want your dogs touched thats fine. I don't care to be used as a training tool for peoples dogs while I'm there to shop. I leave mine home or in th car and mine can be touched. They are not crazy about strangers but are not unfriendly. So you do your thing and I'll do mine


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Milliegsd said:


> When I say he meets people, I meant generally in my home. I dont let him greet everybody out on the street. Honestly he's only done that maybe a handful of times if that, I can count on my fingers how many actual times I let someone greet him outside our home. He's aloof to strangers really could care less for them unless he sees them as "someone I'm friendly with" then hes like oh mom knows them theyre cool. But yeah he's not allowed to greet anyone unless I give him the ok to, I usually just have him sit next to my side.


That is best. Several years ago, I was at a public event and a stranger went up to a GSD owner and wanted a picture with their dog. I could tell the owner didn't expect that and wasn't sure what to do. I almost went over and said you don't have to do that. But he did. The woman got down on the ground and threw her arms around the dog. He growled but she didn't back off, then he air snapped. He didn't make contact, but she was angry with the owner. The owner kept apologizing for his dog. He should have been apologizing TO his dog!


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> If you don't want your dogs touched thats fine. I don't care to be used as a training tool for peoples dogs while I'm there to shop. I leave mine home or in th car and mine can be touched. They are not crazy about strangers but are not unfriendly. So you do your thing and I'll do mine


I already do 0 I'm trying to understand how a dog standing by my side in a store makes another shopper a training tool. That is a big leap from standing quietly. If I forced someone to pet my dog, that would be intrusive but just walking around is not. We can't leave dogs in the car unless it's cool outside.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

When I have a pup out and about, and someone asks to pet my dog. Normally, I say "ok." But as the pup gets older, I make the puppy sit, so, "ok, but he has to sit." As they get older, I assess the situation. If the person asks nicely, and I feel good about them, and the dog is doing great (showing self-control, sitting), I will say to the dog, "say hello." Then the pup can walk forward and sniff the stranger. Then I say "Good Hello." to the dog, and thank you to the person and we walk away. 

About focus. Somehow, I don't know if we are talking about the same thing. There are dogs out there, whose owners get them to focus on them, because the dog is unstable, and if the dog totally focusses on them, they can get them through scary situations. This was not what I was suggesting. I am not sure if this is what you (Brooke) were saying either. 

When I am suggesting that the dog will look to you, I mean, the dog is totally relaxed and walking along, interested in everything, but staying relaxed, under control at your side. But freely looking at everything going on around him. When something like a car backfires, or a small kid does a cartwheel in front of the dog, and he never experienced that before, the dog then looks at your face to see if it is something he should be worried about.

Oftentimes those having trouble with a pup/young dog of our breed will give the dog signals that the dog picks up on, and then the dog is reacting to the owner's signals. For example, we are afraid of what our dog will do, so we grab up the slack in the lead and hold the dog in a death grip, while we worry if the dog is going to bark and lunge and act like an idiot. This reaction tends to illicit a less than favorable reaction in the dog. Training the dog to reliably SIT and stay seated in place, first without distractions, and then with distractions, can then be applied to this situation instead. Instead of the panicked death grip/worry reaction, we act, and give the dog a command that he knows well. SIT. Then then dog sits and waits for us to tell him what comes next. Then the dog gets a "Good SIT! What a good boy you are!" Instead of an owner who is hurriedly apologizing while dragging his dog away in frustrated embarrassment and disappointment. 

We don't have to keep the dog's focus totally on us. I don't think that is natural really. If you know your dog is dog-reactive, than you can use that LOOK or WATCH or FOCUS and the dog rivets its eyes on you, while you are hoping he doesn't get a whiff of the dog across the street. It is a method people use, and like most methods it is somewhat effective.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

@Bjax and @Jack's Dad I disagree. Not all dogs have to be petted public. Not all GSD's will tolerate the fondling, touching and messing with their ears by strangers. I own GSD's that are strong, confident dogs, great nerves, but civil. They do not appreciate a stranger putting hands all over their heads, face and ears. Just like I would not tolerate it. Doesn't make my dog a bad dog, it is a GSD and what a GSD should or might be. Strong, confident, aloof and not tolerant of fools. A strong dog with a solid temperament may reject the notion that anyone should touch him, mess with his ears and his hair. In my world that does not make the dog a bad dog, quite the opposite. It makes the dog one that will stand up for himself, not accept a stranger grabbing him and fussing all over him. These dogs will not back up, will not move out of the way, will not show their hackles, will not be uncomfortable but will move towards the offending person in a very deliberate and confident manner. 

"_*If a dog can't be touched they don't belong in public places like stores or eating places. People here ar saying dogs don't need to be petted. They don't need to be in Lowes either.*_"

This is also incorrect, IMHO. My dogs do not need to be petted. I have one dog that I will allow strangers to pet, she enjoys it. I have two other dogs that do not or may not enjoy it and may not allow it. They both have a lot of bites in the real world. I will take either of these dogs anywhere. If they bite some one that is on me, and I will accept the responsibility. However, I will not let strangers approach or pet these dogs. I have taken both into Lowes, Home Depot and a million other places. These are solid dogs and very good, actually excellent at their jobs. I have never had an accidental bite with either dog. Part of the reason is that I am very vigilant and my dogs are under control, a lot of control. These dogs are in public everyday, no big deal. It is handling and management.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> I already do 0 I'm trying to understand how a dog standing by my side in a store makes another shopper a training tool. That is a big leap from standing quietly. If I forced someone to pet my dog, that would be intrusive but just walking around is not. We can't leave dogs in the car unless it's cool outside.


Well gooooood for you. We have had numerous threads where people use stores to cure their dogs reactivity issues to people or dogs. I guess you don/t read those. I think stores with numerous dog, kids, and adults all andering around is a potential for disaster but that is just my opinion.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jack's Dad said:


> Well gooooood for you. We have had numerous threads where people use stores to cure their dogs reactivity issues to people or dogs. I guess you don/t read those. I think stores with numerous dog, kids, and adults all andering around is a potential for disaster but that is just my opinion.


You sound angry. I'm just trying to understand why this is so important to you. Did you have a bad experience?


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Slamdunc said:


> @*Bjax* and @*Jack's Dad* I disagree. Not all dogs have to be petted public. Not all GSD's will tolerate the fondling, touching and messing with their ears by strangers. I own GSD's that are strong, confident dogs, great nerves, but civil. They do not appreciate a stranger putting hands all over their heads, face and ears. Just like I would not tolerate it. Doesn't make my dog a bad dog, it is a GSD and what a GSD should or might be. Strong, confident, aloof and not tolerant of fools. A strong dog with a solid temperament may reject the notion that anyone should touch him, mess with his ears and his hair. In my world that does not make the dog a bad dog, quite the opposite. It makes the dog one that will stand up for himself, not accept a stranger grabbing him and fussing all over him. These dogs will not back up, will not move out of the way, will not show their hackles, will not be uncomfortable but will move towards the offending person in a very deliberate and confident manner.
> 
> "_*If a dog can't be touched they don't belong in public places like stores or eating places. People here ar saying dogs don't need to be petted. They don't need to be in Lowes either.*_"
> 
> This is also incorrect, IMHO. My dogs do not need to be petted. I have one dog that I will allow strangers to pet, she enjoys it. I have two other dogs that do not or may not enjoy it and may not allow it. They both have a lot of bites in the real world. I will take either of these dogs anywhere. If they bite some one that is on me, and I will accept the responsibility. However, I will not let strangers approach or pet these dogs. I have taken both into Lowes, Home Depot and a million other places. These are solid dogs and very good, actually excellent at their jobs. I have never had an accidental bite with either dog. Part of the reason is that I am very vigilant and my dogs are under control, a lot of control. These dogs are in public everyday, no big deal. It is handling and management.


Well I stand by what I said. I mean NO dog needs to be petted and no one needs to allow it but dogs that can't be petted do not belong in confined places. LE dogs are a different story. How does anyone know what dogs have no training or are reactive. How about all the pople who have very little knowlege about training. When you walk into Petco that's what you get,


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## Bjax (Nov 23, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> I have to disagree. I've not had to body block. But I've got no issues saying no. Some dogs can't be conditioned to be petted.


I agree some dogs can not safely be conditioned, like I said there are bubble dogs. I don't think the OP has any issues with saying no either, but some people don't give you chance or don't listen. Children are the worst. I've also had kids on two separate occasions emerge from a crowd running and wrap my dog's face in a big hug. Thank god the only thing he did was lick their faces. 

@*Slamdunc*. I agree that not all dogs have to be petted public. That's not the problem. The problem is not all members of the general public are on the same page. I own a Shikoku, not a GSD, but they are the same, if not more extreme. I took him to a show in Japan and even the judges did not touch the dogs except to check the balls (and that got interesting with some of the dogs). There was zero expectation for them to except any touches except from their handlers. I had one lady walk up to him (not at the show, the show people knew dogs) without asking, grabbed both his cheeks with her hands and stuck her face in to his face to tell him 'good boy.' He responded back with a low deep growl. Dumb, just plain dumb. You need to prepare your dog as best as you can for children and idiots, they are just one of the many things you will encounter eventually.


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## cloudpump (Oct 20, 2015)

Bjax said:


> I agree some dogs can not safely be conditioned, like I said there are bubble dogs. I don't think the OP has any issues with saying no either, but some people don't give you chance or don't listen. Children are the worst. I've also had kids on two separate occasions emerge from a crowd running and wrap my dog's face in a big hug. Thank god the only thing he did was lick their faces.
> 
> @*Slamdunc*. I agree that not all dogs have to be petted public. That's not the problem. The problem is not all members of the general public are on the same page. I own a Shikoku, not a GSD, but they are the same, if not more extreme. I took him to a show in Japan and even the judges did not touch the dogs except to check the balls (and that got interesting with some of the dogs). There was zero expectation for them to except any touches except from their handlers. I had one lady walk up to him (not at the show, the show people knew dogs) without asking, grabbed both his cheeks with her hands and stuck her face in to his face to tell him 'good boy.' He responded back with a low deep growl. Dumb, just plain dumb. You need to prepare your dog as best as you can for children and idiots, they are just one of the many things you will encounter eventually.


Meh, I've never been blindsided by people or kids.


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## Bjax (Nov 23, 2016)

cloudpump said:


> Meh, I've never been blindsided by people or kids.


LOL, I can't tell if you're being serious or sarcastic. If you are being serious, never say never.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

LuvShepherds said:


> That is best. Several years ago, I was at a public event and a stranger went up to a GSD owner and wanted a picture with their dog. I could tell the owner didn't expect that and wasn't sure what to do. I almost went over and said you don't have to do that. But he did. The woman got down on the ground and threw her arms around the dog. He growled but she didn't back off, then he air snapped. He didn't make contact, but she was angry with the owner. The owner kept apologizing for his dog. He should have been apologizing TO his dog!


Once upon a time, a now-good friend, came to my house to meet my dogs. She was getting a puppy from me that day, and it was the first day I met her. Anyway, the pup's dam who was 4 years old (this was her first litter) the pup was close to six months old I think, she was behind a baby-gate blocking the hall/bedroom/bath. 

She walked over to Jenna, and bent over the baby gate and hugged my dog. These people are my folks age, so 7 years ago, that would have been late sixties. That is relevant because older people don't heal as quickly. Jenna looked at me, like, "What should I do?" It was a complete stranger, in my home coming over the baby gate. 

These are those moments that maturity helps with. Sometimes, as we age, that natural panic reaction slows down, and we realize that it really doesn't help in most situations. And in situations like this, it can be really bad. If I would have panicked and yelled at her not to do that, or tried to run up in between them, or whatever, my dog might have reacted. Instead, when she released my dog, I said, "You really don't want to do that with just any dog, if you don't know them." 

Really, a good dog can make good decisions. They will know what a threat is, and what a threat is not. If I am talking to someone in my home, and that person goes over and pets my dog, my dog really shouldn't try to eat them. Bending over and hugging them is a liberty. But most good dogs can tolerate liberties, especially if we do not make it that much worse by our reaction to the situation. 

Sometimes we can be quick enough to step in between or head off a situation before it develops. Like the person wanting a photo. If we have a bubble dog, that is our job. And a person who is on the other end of a snap or growl, well, they may be perfectly within their rights to be upset if we allowed them to be in harm's way. We should know our dog. And we should say "No." if we do not think the dog can handle. The problem is in that we don't always see eye to eye with other humans. They may think that a photo would definitely be hugging the dog. We probably are still hung up with, "why would anyone want a picture of themselves with my dog?" In the end, it's a lot easier with a bomb proof dog. For one thing, when your dog is bomb proof, you are totally relaxed, and therefore the dog is totally relaxed and even less likely to react to anything. 

Train, train, train, train train. Instead of the dog thinking, "who is this yayhoo, should I eat them, what should I do???" You can tell the dog, SIT, or DOWN, or Go To Your Place! or Go To My Car! or any number of commands the dog is reliable on. And then the dog is thinking, "SIT? I know SIT, I can do that, that is what my Susie wants me to do!" 

Lastly, for the OP, taking a self-defense course can sometimes give us confidence and assertiveness that makes our dogs more easy around us around strangers. If I am nervous around people, my dogs may be too. If I am not nervous, my weeniest dog and I can chase people of the neighborhood out of the bushes and send them packing. I think a self-defense course is something all women should take. Maybe they should offer it in place of gym class for senior high girls. There are other methods of gaining the assertiveness and confidence, being successful in some hobby or other. But we get a GSD oftentimes to make us feel safer. That is well and good. But I think a self-defense class and a GSD is a really good combination.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

GypsyGhost said:


> The forced petting is why I abandoned pursuing a CGC with my first GSD. He clearly was not interested in strangers touching him and he certainly doesn't care what titles, if any, he has. So I guess my question would be, if you don't want strangers touching your dog, is the CGC really that important to you? If it is, that's totally fine, keep doing what you're doing. But sometimes it helps to take a step back and see if you are doing something for you or for your dog. Good luck, whatever you choose!



the petting portion of the CGC is simply a pat on the head. Honestly, something that any dog should be able to do and, frankly, a good life skill. He doesn't have to be interested in being touched and loved on but if I say "let this person touch you" then my dog should be calm and quiet about it.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

cloudpump said:


> I have to disagree. I've not had to body block. But I've got no issues saying no. Some dogs can't be conditioned to be petted.


Some people don't take no for an answer. Or the swerve in so fast that you don't even have time to get the words out. Simply step in front of them gets their attention faster than your voice


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> the petting portion of the CGC is simply a pat on the head. Honestly, something that any dog should be able to do and, frankly, a good life skill. He doesn't have to be interested in being touched and loved on but if I say "let this person touch you" then my dog should be calm and quiet about it.


I tell people that my she-pup is Not -A -Petting -Dog, but some folks will reach out anyhow. I am teaching my gal to respond calmly and I am seeing improvement. The other day a child reached out and rather than barking and scaring the boy, my gal simply gave the finger a sniff and moved aside. I think that is more of what the CGC is trying to test, not that the dog is happy with physical affection from strangers but that they don't nip an innocent (although misguided) nearby hand. 

This is also important since the dog will have to deal with a veterinarian touching them. Again, it is not a stranger gushing attention on them. It is more a clear non panic reaction to a stranger's touch.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

take a car into Toronto? Are you kidding ?

If I use the city as an exposure opportunity , certain areas providing an abundance of variety - my "campus" , I will drive the car to the nearest parking lot that will connect me to public transit. Pay for the day , and go down into the subway system -- or jump on the bus or street car . The dogs travel on public transit.

The dog will walk nicely beside me , paying attention to no one , yet people, even those deep into their lap top
or head phones will make the effort to quickly lean forward , arm extended to touch the dog's side as we go by.

I always head to the back of the vehicle so that those not wanting to be near a dog , do not have to be .

There is one dog "Chill" who I have old VHS videos of in the Broadview subway station - at rush hour - going up and down two tiers of stairs - riding the up and down escalator , waiting on the platform - while swarms of giggly kids joyful after a day-camp trip to some place with water - wet towels -- and the dog was aware - and curious , but did not engage them in any way .
Those kids were flicking towels at each other , skipping , being normal young and loud , happy kids - and they
were attracted by the dog , calling out - awwwww a dog -- and hand clapping and making kissy noises .
You control the dog , not the public . 

This dog was also placed at a sit stay a few feet from me - as the next wave of commuters came and went . This dog was approximately the same age as the OP's . He did go on to a long career in LE , as did his son , and others , as , per my habits once evaluation and acceptance has been done I will do a breeding or two before releasing him.
Saphire's Gus carries his genetics . I speak to the handler frequently -- as does Saphire . There are officers that "know" the dog - but not necessarily the handler . 

I do this kind of thing with all my prospects for service .
I need to see the dogs in the environments in which they will work.
I train the dogs in the environments in which they may work, no matter what that work might entail -
therapy , LE , personal protection .
On that note , PP -- the dog that you can not take everywhere or anywhere is useless - unless you are a stay at home.

Many of my dogs in LE with live bites are able to work in chaotic situations, get their man , and an hour later do a public relations or school visitation stint.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> the petting portion of the CGC is simply a pat on the head. Honestly, something that any dog should be able to do and, frankly, a good life skill. He doesn't have to be interested in being touched and loved on but if I say "let this person touch you" then my dog should be calm and quiet about it.


No CGC test that I have observed was simply a pat on the head, but that could just be the way that particular evaluator did it. What I obseved was manhandling by another person taking the test and then checking of the ears and front feet and a quick swipe down the back with a brush by the evaluator. There is absolutely no judgement from me if people want to put a CGC on their GSD. It wouldn't have worked for my boy (who can still walk safely in public and be examined by the vet without problems). My female may not enjoy the things tested for, but would oblige more easily if I wanted her to.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

GypsyGhost said:


> No CGC test that I have observed was simply a pat on the head, but that could just be the way that particular evaluator did it. What I obseved was manhandling by another person taking the test and then checking of the ears and front feet and a quick swipe down the back with a brush by the evaluator. There is absolutely no judgement from me if people want to put a CGC on their GSD. It wouldn't have worked for my boy (who can still walk safely in public and be examined by the vet without problems). My female may not enjoy the things tested for, but would oblige more easily if I wanted her to.


Its been a few years since I've gone through it, but I thought the petting part was a brief couple pats by a "stranger" and the looking at ears mouth and feet was done by one of the examiners? I've slept a few times since then and things get forgotten so...


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> I get it. I don't like being stopped by people, either. One of the many reasons I got a GSD!
> 
> And I understand wanting to put a CGC on your dog. In theory, it shows that your dog has a nice temperament. The problem is it's better suited for other breeds. I'm not saying a GSD can't or shouldn't get a CGC. Many have them. It started off being really important to me, until I realized I was asking my dog to do something for a test that I didn't want him to do in real life.


I've only read this far...

The CGC evaluation is really not well tailored to the natural GSD temperament. I can point to a few elements of the test that are very challenging for our dogs. The hard part for mine was being asked to sit quietly for three minutes while I handed the leash to someone and walked away.

There are practical advantages to having one simply because it is a certification recognized by the AKC and that lends it legitimacy with the general public. My parents were able to use this as part of making a case for my dog being allowed to skirt HOA rules at their townhome. The association had voted to ban all dogs, even visitors, over a certain size, but my girl's CGC was helpful in getting the board to agree to allow her to visit provided I clean up after her. This is sad to even have to say, but when you own a breed that is oft feared, it can help when you can point to the CGC certification and basically be able to say, "My dog is just as nice as all these other dogs because she has a CGC just like they do." We shouldn't have to shore up that kind of capital, but sometimes it's handy as a quick way of putting someone's mind at ease or defusing a situation.

But on an objective level, not everyone needs or wants their dog to do these things, and that's valid. I've come to the conclusion that I want my dog to tolerate such things patiently, because it's safer for both of us if she can. I don't need her to enjoy them.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

GypsyGhost said:


> No CGC test that I have observed was simply a pat on the head, but that could just be the way that particular evaluator did it. What I obseved was manhandling by another person taking the test and then checking of the ears and front feet and a quick swipe down the back with a brush by the evaluator. There is absolutely no judgement from me if people want to put a CGC on their GSD. It wouldn't have worked for my boy (who can still walk safely in public and be examined by the vet without problems). My female may not enjoy the things tested for, but would oblige more easily if I wanted her to.


Ours was a simple pat on the head.

At most, I've seen the quick swipe down the back. But no exam. The only time my dog has had to deal with an exam of feet or teeth or ears has been in conformation classes.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

the evaluator is supposed to pick up the feet. Run a brush/comb down the back of the dog. Touch the head of the dog. Some evaluators do the "petting" similar to the stand for exam if the dog is standing (sit for exam in obedience is a simple touch on the head) with a touch on the head, one at the shoulders/mid-back, and one at the base of the tail. 

But, no, the dog shouldn't be manhandled by anyone and the evaluator should have explained that to whoever they selected to assist them. It's simply to show that the dog is willing to submit to touching that may encounter in daily life - a vet or groomer will touch the feet and many find that difficult if the dog isn't used to having strangers touch them.

The hardest part, I agree, is the 3 minute separation. However, I simply used a "wait" command and treated it as an out of sight stay. The dog shouldn't have any interaction with the person; they are simply a post to hold the leash.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Any GSD of good character can be conditioned to pass a CGC test. It is 10 simple tests that are NOT too much to ask of a dog with stable temperament. If the dog cannot be petted by a dog savvy person on the chest and head, he has no business reproducing. 

If a dog cannot be groomed down the back with a brush, and have his feet and ears examined, without hostility, then he has no business being used as a stud dog.

This isn't rocket science. It isn't asking a dog to figure square roots without a calculator. A dog that cannot be passed through a CGC test by a competent handler should be neutered and given to an experienced home that is looking for a project dog.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> Ours was a simple pat on the head.
> 
> At most, I've seen the quick swipe down the back. But no exam. The only time my dog has had to deal with an exam of feet or teeth or ears has been in conformation classes.


Mine have had their ears and paws looked at, touched. Folks, when your dog is sick, you have to take them to vet. They may have a thermometer stuck in their bum. They may have a tub/scope shoved down a sore ear. They may have someone shove a needle in their leg for blood. They may have to have a vet look at an infected toe-nail or try to dig out a thorn. 

These are life skills. 

We speak so much about not over-vaccinating, but we shouldn't over-sedate dogs either. My dogs have had that nasty toe-nail thing, one of them, the vet says, if he was going to get bit by a dog, this is so painful, that that is where a dog will bite. My dog did not bite. The CGC test is not asking the dog to submit to excruciating pain. But we don't want to have to get the dog sedated to have toenails clipped, a scope in the ear, temperature taken, blood work done. Are dogs have to have sedation for tooth extractions, and sometimes for x-rays positioning, and surgeries -- that is enough. No dog should have to be muzzled to be taken to the vet. The muzzle should be available if the vet is going to do something scary or painful to something serious. 

I just had a couple of dogs sheared around some hot spots, they are painful. No muzzles. It shouldn't be necessary. If the dog was in a car accident and you have to lift him onto the x-ray table, then yes, put a muzzle on the dog. But not just because it is a German Shepherd.

Every part of the CGC test where someone is touching your dog, is done with you right there. With you right there, your dog should put up with pretty much anything. If you are allowing this yayhoo to put a needle into him, or stick a thermometer in him, he should take that, because you are telling him that is ok. If he trusts you he will. Without trying to bite anyone. 

It is baloney that the CGC is not for GSDs. That's a cop-out. These are life skills, and if a GSD cannot manage these tests, then the breed has truly been ruined.


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## CanineGSDs (May 17, 2017)

This is why it is so very important to SOCIALIZE them to everything and everyone as pups. The jumping up when meeting people should have been corrected when he first started to do it.You seriously need to focus on this now. He needs to be better socializedeal.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

CanineGSDs said:


> This is why it is so very important to SOCIALIZE them to everything and everyone as pups. The jumping up when meeting people should have been corrected when he first started to do it.You seriously need to focus on this now. He needs to be better socializedeal.


Are you serious?... It's not like he was locked in a kennel 24/7 since I got him, when he had the required shots I started taking him out and about everywhere. He's been around kids to adults. He can walk past babies, strollers bikes, loud trucks, farm animals, cats, no issues, no barking no freak outs he remains calm and neutral. He can stay in place or hold a down when kids on bikes come by. He's been to group class since 5 months and does great there. He did jump alot when he was younger it was corrected, he can sit and receive a pet I've seen him do it. WE don't do it all the time though because I don't feel it necessary to let every stranger pet him. The only time he was tempted to jump on someone recently was because a certain friend likes to rile him up and get him to jump up but that was corrected and no longer allow it because its confusing for him. (it wasnt a simple pat on the head or chest rub). However I still have to watch him closely because he gets kind of wiggle butt ish with people he knows. But he gets corrected for that. Which like I've stated before was only once or twice because I don't stop and let people pet him. So please tell me what else you would recommend for socialization?


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Any GSD of good character can be conditioned to pass a CGC test. It is 10 simple tests that are NOT too much to ask of a dog with stable temperament. If the dog cannot be petted by a dog savvy person on the chest and head, he has no business reproducing.
> 
> If a dog cannot be groomed down the back with a brush, and have his feet and ears examined, without hostility, then he has no business being used as a stud dog.
> 
> This isn't rocket science. It isn't asking a dog to figure square roots without a calculator. A dog that cannot be passed through a CGC test by a competent handler should be neutered and given to an experienced home that is looking for a project dog.


For what it's worth, I am someone who wants my personal dog to be able to pass a CGC. I consider those elements to be skills that I need for my personal dog to have. I socialized her with several of those skills in mind and the reason it wasn't all of them was because I forgot.

That being said, I dislike the broad brush treatment. I think it's making a pretty big assumption - not to mention an incredibly insulting one to a lot of people on this forum - that a dog is flawed or a project dog if it can't pass those ten arbitrarily chosen tests that were selected with the general dog, rather than the specific dog, in mind.

And that leads me to my next point. I also think it's foolish to consider this a test of breedworthiness. One of the things that most boggles the mind that simultaneously makes the very most sense about standardized testing and gets to the very crux of why it's so controversial is this simple truth: A score's validity is all in what you use it for. Does it answer the question you need to ask? (It also needs to do so reliably and accurately, but that's a separate issue.)

So apply that logic to breeding tests. A score on a given evaluation, such as the CGC, can be totally reliable and sound and valid *for what it was designed to tell you* and still be a completely idiotic thing to use to answer the question, "Hey, should I breed this German Shepherd to another German Shepherd to produce more German Shepherds?" A CGC tells you that the dog has reasonable manners in certain situations and tolerates certain things. Those things have objective value in everyday life, and living in an urban environment, I certainly find personal value in those things. But the CGC is agnostic of any breed standard, including the elements of temperament included in said standard. Any overlap is likely coincidental, given that the aim of the CGC is not to test whether any type of dog should be bred. And that's as it should be; the CGC is meant to be a certification of a selection of social skills. Which skills were selected were value-laden (as is item selection on any test!). Not all owners are going to value all of those skills. Not all breeders are going to value all of those skills. And not all parent clubs writing standards are going to value all of those skills. To suggest that this specific set of ten skills is a necessary prerequisite to breeding or else you have a project dog is an insulting generalization, not to mention a conceptually impoverished approach to truly testing what you need to know.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@selzer idk even if found something I was good at I still struggle with confidence and assertiveness sometimes. I did 12 years of club softball and was very good at it, started on varsity all 4 years of highschool, 1st team all district, college exposure tournaments, college camps the works... Anyway despite getting offers to play for schools I left that behind to study mechanical engineering. I still go to the gym, Im 5'8" #170 so I'm not a really small lol I've taken boxing lessons and self defense really isn't the issue if I feel threatened I will defend myself. Finn and Millie was what replaced softball for me. I gave 110% when I played ball and I give my dogs probably more thn 110%, my friends know I spend more time working and training both of them, well mostly Finn now, than anyone they've ever met with a dog. I thoroughly enjoy it and it does give me more confidence. Do I know everything? No im still learning things, I'm not as experienced as some of y'all here. But it does kill me about what happened, I thought I had been doing everything right, checking off everything little step (I'm a bit of a perfectionist). I'm just socially awkward, I can't do small talk, meeting new people bymyself makes me nervous almost always, even talking on here does. The times Finns met people and did great I was super relaxed and confident, but typically I wasn't bymself or it was someone I was comfortable with already. But yeah, I keep going over what happened again and again... I feel awful.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

selzer said:


> Any GSD of good character can be conditioned to pass a CGC test. It is 10 simple tests that are NOT too much to ask of a dog with stable temperament. If the dog cannot be petted by a dog savvy person on the chest and head, he has no business reproducing.
> 
> If a dog cannot be groomed down the back with a brush, and have his feet and ears examined, without hostility, then he has no business being used as a stud dog.
> 
> This isn't rocket science. It isn't asking a dog to figure square roots without a calculator. A dog that cannot be passed through a CGC test by a competent handler should be neutered and given to an experienced home that is looking for a project dog.


nah - that is getting too close and personal 

is the handler there at the time ? that is different 

is the dog left , handler out of site ? then that is different


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Brooke, my comments were not aimed at you, the ones about a dog of stable temperament being able to pass the CGC. Someone suggested the test really wasn't created for dogs like GSDs. And I totally disagree with that. I we, mostly pet people, should strive to be able to pass the CGC. And I truly believe your dog will be able to do so. Your commitment to training suggests this. The hiccup you experienced, was good information, and something to work on. 

The CGC test is not a make or break deal, the dog passes or doesn't pass and if it doesn't pass throw him to the sharks. If the dog doesn't pass, it tells you what you need to work on more, and you take the test again. Usually, if the dog doesn't pass it means the owner did not judge the dog's readiness for the test, or the dog had a really bad day. 

I had a dog, Beansy (now Lola), who I had in regular classes on Tuesday, and Bear was in CGC classes on Thursday. Both classes were similar with meet and greets, may I pet your dog, etc. But I sold Bear on Wednesay, so I brought Beansy back on Thursday to take the CGC test. She flunked. She passed 9 out of 10 tests. She wouldn't let the same dude that pet her head on Tuesday to pet her on Thursday. 

On Friday, I found this massive hot spot on her neck. It wasn't there the day before, because I groomed her for that test. But I think it must have been brewing. It blew up so fast, they had to cut off half her mane. It was awful. She went to her new home with 9 out of 10 on the CGC and half of her mane cut off, LOL. I know that if I took the test with her again, she would have passed, I've taken the test enough times and put the test on enough dogs.

Watery Tart, One can use many things to disqualify a dog from breeding. For example, 1 testicle -- eh! 2 testicles doesn't mean the dog should be bred. Not registered -- Eh! Registered does not mean breedworthy. In my personal opinion, a dog that cannot pass a CGC with a competent owner/handler, the dog should not be bred. It does not mean the dog should be bred. It is not a test for breed-worthiness, it can be a test that can help breeders wash a puppy without putting more time and effort into the dog that will not add to their breeding stock. 

Now I did not wash Beansy because she had a hot spot and did not let the guy pet her head. Actually I washed her many months earlier. Dolly had all the drive, and Bear had the most confidence right from the litter. Beansy was less confident, and while she would be a good deterrent, I did not think she was the best choice for breeding early on. I told her new owners, not a protection dog, but a good deterrent. They have worked with her, and I have kept in touch with them. The first trainer told her the dog would not stand up to real pressure, that Gus, the puppy had the play drive and the temperament to be their protection dog, and their wl dog (not one of mine) was too nice, and had no play drive. He could not train her for protection in any humane manner. Years passed, and their next trainer worked with both Gus and Lola, maybe Gus wore off on Lola. But Lola had more protection ability in her than I or the first trainer originally thought. 

Carman, yes the handler is present throughout the test save only the last test, supervised separation. The person holding the leash can talk to the dog, but is not supposed to pet the dog. The dog is not supposed to go to pieces or drag the holder in search of its owner. If your dog cannot handle someone petting its head or looking at an ear or paw, or drawing a brush down its back, while you are right there, and you actually spent weeks preparing the dog for this, practicing, then I'm sorry, that doesn't sound like a stable dog.

Just because some people take their dog to a show, sign up for the CGC, and fail it because they and their dog were not prepared, does not mean the dog is faulty. This isn't a temperament test, it is actually a test, a relatively simple test of training. Any stable dog, with a little training should be able to pass it. And yes, supervised separation is a problem for some of our dogs. So, we train the dog for an out of sight down stay, and the dog manages even supervised separation if it is stable. If it has serious separation anxiety, it isn't stable, it should not pass the test. What else is there? Walking in a crowd of 3 or 4 people? How hard is that? How about walking along and meeting another person walking their dog, with the dogs on the outside. A seriously dog aggressive dog will have trouble with this. That's not exactly stable. A good dog will allow its owner to walk it toward another person with a leashed animal without losing its mind. Good test. Not rocket science. SIT, DOWN, COME, STAY, walk on a loose lead -- this ANY GSD should be able to do. 

The whole test is really shockingly simple. There are no freaky twists or turns. It's not like Rally where there are 30 some possible signs, and maybe 13 to 15 that they use. They will not set it up to make it likely for you to miss a sign. It is ten simple tests with very little variation in how they are performed. (some instructors choose to do the first so many tests in a line, while others do each dog start to finish, some will have a "neutral" dog with them that they use, others will use those taking the test to walk up pause, with the dogs on the outside and walk on by. But mostly, you can prepare indefinitely, you can take the test as many times as you need to get a pass, a GSD is certainly intelligent enough to be taught to do these simple life skills.


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## Bjax (Nov 23, 2016)

I think somewhere we lost track of this thread actually helping the OP pass the CGC and morphed it into whether the CGC is a good test for GSDs. I've seen this same discussion on a Japanese dog forum. The native Japanese spitz's are also breeds that are expected to be aloof with strangers and have not had their aggression bred out of them. 
My final conclusions from that discussion is while it's not perfect it, the CGC does provide a baseline to see if a dog can adapt to expectations of modern society and that there is a big difference between a dog that can pass this test with conditioning and one that can not pass the test no matter what.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Bjax said:


> I think somewhere we lost track of this thread actually helping the OP pass the CGC and morphed it into whether the CGC is a good test for GSDs. I've seen this same discussion on a Japanese dog forum. The native Japanese spitz's are also breeds that are expected to be aloof with strangers and have not had their aggression bred out of them.
> My final conclusions from that discussion is while it's not perfect it, the CGC does provide a baseline to see if a dog can adapt to expectations of modern society and that there is a big difference between a dog that can pass this test with conditioning and one that can not pass the test no matter what.


I think part of THAT argument comes with some people not knowing what "aloof" actually means. An aloof dog should have no problem accepting a pet from strangers if told to. It simply means that they shouldn't be seeking out affection from strangers - cool and distant. Disinterested. Some people think that GSDs should be distrustful of all strangers which is against the standard in my opinion.

I'm not sure if there is a specific breed of the spitz type that you are referring to but the Japanese spitz is supposed to be an "intelligent and cheerful" temperament. Not what I'd use to describe a dog bred to be aggressive.
Shiba Inu's can be a bit more aggressive/assertive since their temperament calls for "high alert" as their default view of the world.

I think the majority of dogs will need some type of "conditioning" or training to pass. Sometimes more, sometimes less. The other 2 add-on tests CGC Advanced and Urban, a bit more.


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## Ottosaurus-rex (Mar 19, 2016)

My guy did the same thing. He was very nervous to meet stranger for the first time, he barked and snapped at a child who kept trying to pet him(clearly a back off signal, not meant to harm). I began to socialize him with other people, and has since improved. Still hesitant half a year later, but takes his pets like a champ. I just make sure he has a good sniff of their hand before.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Dainerra said:


> 
> 
> The hardest part, I agree, is the 3 minute separation. However, I simply used a "wait" command and treated it as an out of sight stay. The dog shouldn't have any interaction with the person; they are simply a post to hold the leash.


The tie-out with handler out of sight is part of the BH test in IPO, although it seems we seldom wait a full three minutes. honestly I've never timed it since I am usually the jogger that runs past all the BH candidates.


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## Kyrielle (Jun 28, 2016)

Ottosaurus-rex said:


> I just make sure he has a good sniff of their hand before.


We're doing the same. If Jack gets a moment to sniff someone's hand, he usually lets them know pretty clearly if he'll accept petting by licking their fingers and/or moving toward them. If he draws away, uninterested, most people know he's not interested in petting today. It's the people that get suddenly scared, nervous, or are a bit oblivious that we're working through. Those people seem to really confuse him and make him anxious as well.

He's young and going through a "suspicious of everything" phase. He's not so suspicious that it overrides his curiosity as he'll try to sniff someone even after they attempted an unwelcome tough, but we have to be on top of making sure he's given something constructive to do (like making him sit next to us when he starts getting uncomfortable). As someone else in this thread stated, getting him to do something he knows how to do settles him a bit. We don't like to make him accept petting, but we do expect him to be polite in saying "no", which means not barking or growling but moving away and ignoring the person.

Mostly telling people he's in training (because he is) and to let him sniff them first generally settles the matter and helps tremendously. No, we don't expect people to be training tools. But if they ask to pet him, we're going to tell them that so they're aware we're working through something.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I've been to a couple of shows where the CGC test was offered . 
took the time to watch them - Linda Shaw was with me and basically
was of the same opinion.

I was not impressed . Not one scintilla impressed . 

I wouldn't hurry to get this evaluation and I wouldn't give much weight to it either . 

For those using it as a title --- it is not .

The ckc (Canadian) and AKC entry level obedience title of CD , companion dog , gives a much better view of the dog's temperament and ability to handle things .


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## Bjax (Nov 23, 2016)

Dainerra said:


> I'm not sure if there is a specific breed of the spitz type that you are referring to but the Japanese spitz is supposed to be an "intelligent and cheerful" temperament. Not what I'd use to describe a dog bred to be aggressive.
> Shiba Inu's can be a bit more aggressive/assertive since their temperament calls for "high alert" as their default view of the world.


Yeah that was confusing. Yes the Japanese Spitz is a spitz breed developed in Japan, but not one of the breeds I was referring to. I was referring to the six native breeds as recognized by the Japanese Dog Preservation Society (the Shiba Inu, Akita Inu, Hokkaido Inu, Shikoku Ken, Kishu Ken, and the Kai Ken) all six are spitz types. When shown all six are expected to be in high alert. If your dog shows any uncertainty by dropping its tail you might as well excuse yourself. Conversely if your dog is wagging its tail either at other dogs or people that also loses points. Frankly I think they are unintentionally selecting for dog aggression because a dog displaying at another dog is more impressive in the ring, but that's getting off topic. All six should be aloof with strangers, as first and foremost the native Japanese dog should be a hunting dog (even the Akita at one time before they were selected for fighting), not aggressive as that would be liability on the mountain, but also not so friendly that they would approach strangers distracting them from hunting and possibly getting them into trouble.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Kyrielle said:


> We're doing the same. If Jack gets a moment to sniff someone's hand, he usually lets them know pretty clearly if he'll accept petting by licking their fingers and/or moving toward them. If he draws away, uninterested, most people know he's not interested in petting today. It's the people that get suddenly scared, nervous, or are a bit oblivious that we're working through. Those people seem to really confuse him and make him anxious as well.
> 
> He's young and going through a "suspicious of everything" phase. He's not so suspicious that it overrides his curiosity as he'll try to sniff someone even after they attempted an unwelcome tough, but we have to be on top of making sure he's given something constructive to do (like making him sit next to us when he starts getting uncomfortable). As someone else in this thread stated, getting him to do something he knows how to do settles him a bit. We don't like to make him accept petting, but we do expect him to be polite in saying "no", which means not barking or growling but moving away and ignoring the person.
> 
> Mostly telling people he's in training (because he is) and to let him sniff them first generally settles the matter and helps tremendously. No, we don't expect people to be training tools. But if they ask to pet him, we're going to tell them that so they're aware we're working through something.



You could tell people to do the Two Second Sniff. I used to do this with a little mixed mutt I had that was some times dog intolerant. The idea is that there is a two or three seconds of sniffing and then the stranger calmly moves away. Then thank the person for co-operating. Most people smile when I let them know I appreciate them helping me teach my pup good manners.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

What astounds me still, is how many people do not know how to introduce themselves to a dog. So many believe they should have rights to 'just' walk up and pet/maul any dog they see. I akin this to someone walking up and just hugging random people without a proper introduction AND permission to do so. I know if someone did this to me, I probably would instinctively deck them (I am very protective of my personal space). I've known people not want to do a handshake for whatever reason; perfectly friendly, but perhaps had a phobia or just held different introduction protocols. For a dog, whose whole language to its species is structured and for the most part 'polite' with permissions gained through introduction (sniffing) it is truly rude of peope to just skip the formalities and 'hug' the dog.

Now I am not saying it is ok for a dog to snap or bite someone becuase they are socially awkward and rude in dog language, but it would behoove the public to learn proper introduction, ask permission from handler before assuming it is ok, and await the permission from the dog to proceed to the 'hugging' stage - usually not more than a few seconds of sniffing on the K9's part (i.e. handshake, offering names, etc). While the dog must submit to most things in life, this simple act by those wanting to pet a dog is not too much to ask.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

Ottosaurus-rex said:


> My guy did the same thing. He was very nervous to meet stranger for the first time, he barked and snapped at a child who kept trying to pet him(clearly a back off signal, not meant to harm). I began to socialize him with other people, and has since improved. Still hesitant half a year later, but takes his pets like a champ. I just make sure he has a good sniff of their hand before.


 that's good I'm glad he's improved. With Finn though it's not so much the same. He's always been a pretty confident dog. I've never seen him nervous or unsure of meeting people. He eventually phased out the puppy phase of every person is exciting and became more aloof but if given the ok from me he generally never had a problem receiving attention from people. Seeking out more attention is what I was correcting (typically with people he was more comfortable with already, not complete strangers) but he was never hesitant about it. So this was very very unexpected and surprising to me. I'm going to get him reevaluated by someone different, maybe now he's unsure of strangers but who knows. Weird part was he accepted the pat on the head for a second or two and then reacted. It wasn't like the guy reached out and he snapped back immediately. He received the pat on the head then like an instant changed his mind about it. My initial reaction was to correct him for breaking his down to seek attention from the person, not for the barking because he didn't react like that until a moment later


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

The CGC isn't a make or break for me, honestly it was mentioned in our class that it was coming up in a few weeks so I went down the check list and was like oh Finn can do most of this, so I figured it was just something we can do together and see how we do and what we need to work on. It wasn't meant to impress anyone or anything lol just looking for things to do this summer with him since I have a bit more extra time. We had a small hiccup and I'm getting him re-evaluated to see what's wrong maybe before he was never hesitant about meeting people and maybe now he is. Honestly it's hard to say what really happened with out seeing a video playback of it. He broke command and displayed inappropriate aggression for a reason not known yet.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

go back to your very first post which is full of information 

you needed to walk the dog around the facility to calm him down into a state
able to get a pet with behaviour to your liking

if it were my dog , in your encounter with the store greeter - I would have helped
show the dog how to behave - and that does not include a command or correction
-guidance -- do it , go through the behaviour menu till you get it right ("you" the dog)

sometimes super excitabilty to interact with strangers is an insecurity -- too solicitous 

instead of corrections - which now introduce conflict and pressure and add to insecurity - show the dog
how to behave - right from the start - teach the dog that strangers have no valu

goes right back to early socializing


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

carmspack said:


> go back to your very first post which is full of information
> 
> you needed to walk the dog around the facility to calm him down into a state
> able to get a pet with behaviour to your liking
> ...


It's not necessarily that I needed to walk him around to calm him down, he was already calm entering the store. He heeled nicely from the car to the entrance stayed at my side, stopped when I stopped. When we made it inside the lady made a comment so I stopped, she asked if she could pet him I said no initially, then exchanged a few words Finn sat at my side seemed friendly towards her when she made kissy noises at him but he generally ignored her and stayed sitting. She even commented how he was well behaved and noticed that he was mostly just glancing up at me but seemly just ignored her. He was calm. It was at that moment that I was like "ok maybe this a good time to practice she seems like she'll listen if I instruct her what to do" so then I told her if he's good I'll bring him back around. It wasn't really about him being good he was already being good and calm it was an excuse for myself to make up my mind about stopping and talking to a stranger and not being anxious about it. Not necessarily about Finn he did a great job the whole time up until what happened


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

@carmspack the comment I made wasn't about Finn it was more like "ok I'll walk around and calm down first before I bring him back" he was already doing what I wanted him to be doing without me asking for it


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## BlitzRomman (May 24, 2017)

Dogs can sense things that we can't, maybe he had a weird feeling about the guy and went to a protective mode hahah . just a thought


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

carmspack said:


> I've been to a couple of shows where the CGC test was offered .
> took the time to watch them - Linda Shaw was with me and basically
> was of the same opinion.
> 
> ...


Well, it IS actually a title now. I think you have to send in the paperwork differently or pay more, but it can actually be a title now. And, other AKC titles, you need 3 legs, I don't think that is true of the CGC title. I don't bother. I have sent in for the certificate on most of my dogs, but the last couple that passed, I didn't bother. I have their tests with a pass on them. 

No, this is not a test that will decide a dog is breed-worthy. But it can help someone decide their dog is not. A dog with difficulty with these ten tests, really should not be bred. 

My biggest problem with the CD is not being able to hear the judge behind my back giving me direction changes. The CD requires limited off-leash work, and group stays and a stand for exam. The stand for exam is done with the handler six feet away, but it can easily be trained for. The judge walks up to the dog in a way that is unlikely to spook the dog, touches head, back, and butt and moves on. 

The CGC requires the evaluator to pet the head/chest area, to run a brush down the back, to lift paws and touch the ears, with the owner right there. 

Which is more difficult for the dog/handler team really depends on the dog handler team. 

The CGC requires loose-lead walking, the DC requires heeling, on lead and off lead. But I have seen some dogs pass a leg of their CD completely out of position, practically across the ring. I really do not see that as much more than what is done in the CGC. 

And as for the figure eight. You have two statue-like stewards the dog navigates around with training for the CD. The CGC requires the dog to walk through a group of people, all of whom are milling. We call them the Millers. I don't think the CD tells you more about the dog in this test than the CGC. 

The CD requires a dog to stay until the owner calls the dog to him, the dog sits in front and finishes. The judge gives the command to come, and to finish. I don't think the dog usually fails for a poor finish, just lack of recall. The CGC also requires a recall -- not as polished. 

The CD requires a group stay, which is generally so many feet betwen each dog. Did they change this? Is it still sits and downs, or one or the other? I think the change was that if the dog breaks the one, it can be excused from the other. Whether this is more difficult than walking up to another dog and handler, and walking past with dogs on the outside, is again dependent on the individual dog. 

The CD has nothing to compare with supervised separation. 

The CGC also has a section for dropping pans or other loud noises, and a visual distraction, like someone jogging by, or someone walking with a walker. The CD doesn't have this, unless they are doing agility in the next ring (happens), or some brat has an ice cream cone and leans over where the dog is on its SIT STAY. And lets not forget the garbage truck choking and puking and making garbage truck sounds all the way around the building when the dogs are on a down stay. 

I think both tests reveal character in the dogs, and both are worth doing if you really aren't interested in IPO. Neither is really that great of an accomplishment, but they are better than nothing. The CD requires that the dog function in the show atmosphere. A CGC can be given at a training facility or store, neither of which captures the chaos/number of dogs and people and charged atmosphere of a show. And the CD requires the dog to be able to complete the test 3 separate times, under 2 different judges.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> Well, it IS actually a title now. I think you have to send in the paperwork differently or pay more, but it can actually be a title now. And, other AKC titles, you need 3 legs, I don't think that is true of the CGC title. I don't bother. I have sent in for the certificate on most of my dogs, but the last couple that passed, I didn't bother. I have their tests with a pass on them.


We will have to agree to disagree on the entire rest of your post, so I won't go there, but my dog passed her CGC last year, so I can speak to this.

You are correct that it is a title now, or can be. The paperwork came in the mail, and I could indicate whether I wished to have the title or the certification. I did choose the title, which meant I incurred an extra fee, sent along with the paperwork back to the AKC. You are also correct that you only need to test the one time rather than earning three legs. I have her certificate in my records, so if anyone ever needs to know, I can show them a copy. I was prepared to do so with my parents' HOA, but they like my parents and heard "Canine Good Citizen" and immediately said that was all they needed to know to permit my dog to visit the property.


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## CanineGSDs (May 17, 2017)

Milliegsd said:


> Are you serious?... It's not like he was locked in a kennel 24/7 since I got him, when he had the required shots I started taking him out and about everywhere. He's been around kids to adults. He can walk past babies, strollers bikes, loud trucks, farm animals, cats, no issues, no barking no freak outs he remains calm and neutral. He can stay in place or hold a down when kids on bikes come by. He's been to group class since 5 months and does great there. He did jump alot when he was younger it was corrected, he can sit and receive a pet I've seen him do it. WE don't do it all the time though because I don't feel it necessary to let every stranger pet him. The only time he was tempted to jump on someone recently was because a certain friend likes to rile him up and get him to jump up but that was corrected and no longer allow it because its confusing for him. (it wasnt a simple pat on the head or chest rub). However I still have to watch him closely because he gets kind of wiggle butt ish with people he knows. But he gets corrected for that. Which like I've stated before was only once or twice because I don't stop and let people pet him. So please tell me what else you would recommend for socialization?


Excuse me, but I am going by what YOU stated.Especially when you first posted.


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## CanineGSDs (May 17, 2017)

carmspack said:


> go back to your very first post which is full of information
> 
> you needed to walk the dog around the facility to calm him down into a state
> able to get a pet with behaviour to your liking
> ...



I totally agree with you.


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

CanineGSDs said:


> Excuse me, but I am going by what YOU stated.Especially when you first posted.


No where in my original post does it clearly explain what all he went through as far as early socialization. So you jumped to conclusions on your own assuming that I did not socialize him at all early on. I explained one scenario, that did not fit with all the socialization and scenarios he's been through, that's why I was taken by surprise. Because I've put him about in every different situation and environment and have taught him to be calm and how to behave in nearly every situation. So that's why I asked what else do you recommend since I must of missed something according to you


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

CanineGSDs said:


> I totally agree with you.


 Finn was already behaving perfectly well upon entering the store, sat next to my side and wait politely while I talked to the greeter. I made an excuse to walk him around so I could make up my mind whether to let her pet him or not since we needed to practice it, sorry that I did not clearly define what I meant in my original post. That's why I'm not sure why it's being assumed that he was not properly socialized early on, by any means I'm not perfect but he is environmentally sound and knows to wait patiently if I'm talking, he's been around crazy amounts of people while sitting calmly at my feet, he's had kids running and screaming around him kicking balls around and it didn't phase him. I've put him through just about any and every training situation I can think and he's done great. That's why this is such a random occurrence to me considering what he's been through.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> We will have to agree to disagree on the entire rest of your post, so I won't go there, but my dog passed her CGC last year, so I can speak to this.
> 
> You are correct that it is a title now, or can be. The paperwork came in the mail, and I could indicate whether I wished to have the title or the certification. I did choose the title, which meant I incurred an extra fee, sent along with the paperwork back to the AKC. You are also correct that you only need to test the one time rather than earning three legs. I have her certificate in my records, so if anyone ever needs to know, I can show them a copy. I was prepared to do so with my parents' HOA, but they like my parents and heard "Canine Good Citizen" and immediately said that was all they needed to know to permit my dog to visit the property.



WE do not HAVE to do anything if you are including me in that statement. 

The whole rest of my post was an opinion comparing and contrasting the CD and the CGC. And it just states that both tests tell you stuff about your dog, and one might be easier for some dogs/people to obtain, and for other dogs/people the other might be. I am sorry you do not feel I should be able to have such an opinion. If you disagree with the discription of the tests, then feel free to enlighten us on your experience. I have completed both on multiple dogs, but it has been a few years since I've done a CD, going the RN/RA route because I don't need to rely as much on my hearing.


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## WateryTart (Sep 25, 2013)

selzer said:


> WE do not HAVE to do anything if you are including me in that statement.
> 
> The whole rest of my post was an opinion comparing and contrasting the CD and the CGC. And it just states that both tests tell you stuff about your dog, and one might be easier for some dogs/people to obtain, and for other dogs/people the other might be. I am sorry you do not feel I should be able to have such an opinion. If you disagree with the discription of the tests, then feel free to enlighten us on your experience. I have completed both on multiple dogs, but it has been a few years since I've done a CD, going the RN/RA route because I don't need to rely as much on my hearing.


Technically, logically, we do, unless you are now saying you share my opinions. 

Either we agree to disagree and go our own ways with our own opinions, or you assert that you disagree that we disagree, which means you agree with me.  Either one works for me.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

WateryTart said:


> Technically, logically, we do, unless you are now saying you share my opinions.
> 
> Either we agree to disagree and go our own ways with our own opinions, or you assert that you disagree that we disagree, which means you agree with me.  Either one works for me.


If WE agree to disagree, then both of us have to agree to give up the argument, understanding that we disagree with each other, and it is hopeless to continue. 

When one person says we HAVE to do this, it gets under my craw, because you may be ready to give up the conversation, but I may have not said everything or responded to your last statement -- usually, people put forth their opinion and then say, "well we'll just have to agree to disagree." Baloney! Why make such a statement? If you are done with a discussion, say, "well, I'm done, I am not going to convince you." or say nothing at all, or say whatever you want to say, but don't end a conversation telling me what I must do. 

It is a way to control the conversation. If I continue after you pull out the "we agreed to disagree" then I look like a jerk. You do what you want, don't push me around.

Don't think I am picking on you about this. I've said this to others as well. It is one of those common sayings that most people don't really think about and use when they feel a conversation has run its course. But if you dissect it, I cannot think of ANY situation where it is really appropriate.

Now, if you would say, "Can we agree to disagree on this?" That's a whole other story. Then, I have a choice and we are indeed agreeing to disagree and let it go.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Looks like we need to get back on topic. A different thread about the certifications and titles we can get on our dogs might be in order.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Jack's Dad said:


> If a dog can't be touched they don't belong in public places like stores or eating places. People here ar saying dogs don't need to be petted. They don't need to be in Lowes either.


This is my thing, in my opinion stores, restaurants were created for people not dogs.(trained service dogs, training LE dogs totally different than pets). I have seen too many people take dogs into crowded aisles, flea markets, outside art shows. Walking them on hot pavement, with constant differing distractions. Where are they supposed to relieve themselves? I think people take their dogs out for themselves and not for what the dogs like to do. These dogs are put into situations that they aren't prepared for. I should not have to worry about someone's dogs when I'm out. My dogs would much rather be at home, kicking back. I do take my dogs hiking, camping and into venues they enjoy. I just posted pictures from a camping trip, at our main site, never leashed or contained,able to explore and swim and be dogs. 

I think I saw a phrase somewhere in this thread that not all dogs "tolerate" being touched. So what reaction is acceptable for a dog that won't tolerate a touch? A dog may not enjoy being touched, but should certainly be able to tolerate it in public if it should happen. A dog that can't tolerate a touch should not be put in the position that one may happen (for the safety of the public and the dog).


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

I may have used that term "tolerated" meaning the that my big-boy allows folks to pet him. Sometimes he actually seems to enjoy it. He doesn't seek it out. Our dogs appear to like going to the farmer's market and cities with us. We've gone to restaurants and group walks and they have done fine. They would rather come with us than be left at home. 

My she-pup, who doesn't like strangers touching her still likes going places with us. I do agree that I have to be considerate of her limitations and NOT take her into places that would be too challenging. I wouldn't take her into the hardware story if it is crowded or she is over tired. That is not doing anyone any favors. Even when we went to a dog festival I didn't keep her in over crowded buildings. On the Human Society group walk I was alert to where we were in the "pack". We needed enough space to move at the "working dog pace" not the old couch potato pace. At the farmer's market today she was calm and behaved but she barked at someone and I immediately remove her from the market and put her into her crate while the rest of the family shopped. 

I had one dog years ago, a ridgie mix, that loved out door concerts and even 4th of July celebrations, fireworks and all. She was even performed in a Shakespeare play. I had another little mix that loved hiking with us but did not enjoy being at crowded and noisy events. She was left home, much to her dismay. You have to know your dog's limits.


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

LuvShepherds said:


> Why should I allow any person who wants to touch my dog in a public place to do so? They don't need to touch. Many GSDs don't tolerate strangers touching them but are perfectly well behaved in stores. The breed is supposed to be aloof. They don't need to be manhandled by strangers. I didn't let strangers touch my children either.


This is the line I was trying to think of about toleration. I'm not sure what "GSDs don't tolerate" means in this quote. What does a dog do that won't tolerate touching if there isn't room for it to avoid the touch? It isn't always possible while out in public to to be in the perfect situation or setting. My first dog was a Shepherd/Elkhound mix that never understood why I married and had children. After my girls were born and older she would allow them to sit with her, pet her but if they crowded too much, she would quietly leave the area. The girls weren't allowed to follow, and had to leave her alone. She knew her own boundaries, but to me she still tolerated touching.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

carmspack said:


> but the public will -- intentionally and not - and the character of the GSD says he should tolerate , not seek out , not provoke , trustworthy, discriminating.
> 
> that is why I used my example of the French ring Campagne judge leaning over and handling the ear to read the tattoo . If the dog is tattooed in the groin , then the dog lays down and the judge moves in close to read the tattoo.
> *
> ...


Why would they react to someone in a wheel chair? I've heard of dogs reacting to guns, traffic ect.. but wheel chairs too? Have not come across that problem. My WL male met his wheel chair bound assistant trainer last class we took and he loved her, not an inkling of hesitation. He had zero prior exposure. 

From what's been posted I don't think the op has any major issue. Different handling in that situation and you'd probably have a nonevent. Each dog is a bit of a different learning curve and you continue to learn as you both progress. I've handled my female Zoe for years now, she knows what I want, sometimes without saying or even when I use the wrong command. My male follows the exact word, I really need to watch what I say.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well that was definitely the case .

handlers thankfully were aware of their dogs and prevented any adverse and unfortunately incident - some of them went on alert - others to avoidance -- they were annoyed with the lady and her caretaker for 'upsetting' the dogs before they went into the ring.

good for your dog - that is exactly what I would expect from mine.

go to a show and see how many dogs get upset when the judge or ring steward wears a hat -- or eye glasses --

not all dogs are secure and adaptable .

the picture that the op makes in first post and the mellowed out picture on top of this page 12 don't match.

part of the problem is the entire preparation to enter that store - do the perimeter -- with some management prior to a spontaneous touch -- management puts the pressure on -- dog is trying to focus . Apparently this was a too friendly jumping up attention seeking dog? and now the rules have changed - so again tension for the dog .

When he tried his mightiest and blew it for the strangers attention - he knew it and he got corrected - so the dog is in conflict 

Attentive heeling is not calm and casual -- the dog is working and going to his limit . 

early socialization ---- if not done correctly creates problems -- too much -- sometimes people aren't even watching their dog 
"he's been around crazy amounts of people while sitting calmly at my feet, he's had kids running and screaming around him kicking balls around and it didn't phase him. I've put him through just about any and every training situation I can think and he's done great. That's why this is such a random occurrence to me considering what he's been through."

take a breather --- start again -- no agenda or time table -- read the dog


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## Milliegsd (Nov 24, 2015)

*Update*

So Finn took the CGC this past Sunday (6/11) and passed with flying colors. Prior to all that I walked through what had happened with my trainer and ultimately sounded like he responded to my energy and nervousness. She watched carefully one on one had her pet him (shes never actually petted Finn or greeted him on friendly terms before so she might as well of been someone new to him) and he didnt show any timidness or resentment or look aggravated. He sat politely and then next class I had her pet him again and also one of the male trainers did and nothing. Sat politely, received the pet all is well. Nothing out of the ordinary, he wasnt tense or anything. We practiced this each time just at the end of our class. We also practiced the examination part of the CGC and he had no issues being handled and checked over and brushed. So we showed up to the place it was being held on Sunday, it was someone I've never met before but he went through all the touching parts of it with no issues. I stayed calm lol I knew he could handle it.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

CONGRATULATIONS!! That's great news!


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## MyHans-someBoy (Feb 23, 2013)

Finn looks very pleased with his blue ribbon-and he should be!

Congrats on doing a great job training him!!!


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## kelbonc (Aug 25, 2014)

:congratulations:

Congrats to you and Finn on this great accomplishment!!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Congratulations to both of you!!!


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