# completely scared off



## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

the pup and i went to visit/watch training at a local club yesterday and we saw...

constant, HARD jerking on prongs,
yelling,
kicking,
pulling ears,
yelping from shock collars,
etc.

i just finished reading sheila booth's purely positive training and needless to say what we saw was horrible. most of this was done by the director of the club during the obidience stuff and she wonders why one of her four dogs pulled, twisted, fought and would not sit as they were about to begin bite work. i understand that this is "old school" training and these dogs need to be tough, but i won't be going back to this club. **removed by Admin**... is this training typical at a lot of the smaller clubs? am i just naive? i have no experience training schutzhund but was very interested until yesterday. we might have to find a new sport...


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

That's too bad. Maybe there's another club nearby.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If you're very interested don't let one person/one bad experience make up your mind...


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

just to clarify...

i am not bashing this clubs methods. to each his own. i just don't want to train my pup this way. i don't plan on him doing police work, etc. just trying to find something fun for us to do together.


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## LaneyB (Feb 5, 2012)

I have no experience in Schutzhund training, but I did observe some of it at a place in Michigan. It was nothing like you have described. The dogs seemed to be having a positive experience. I wouldn't give up on it, just keep looking for a club that is compatible with your views on dog training. 

My daughter had a foster pup for a year, and we went to a few different places before we found one that was a good match for us for obedience classes.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Not all Schutzhund trainers use those methods! Keep looking for a club that fits with you! My trainer does not..in fact...she'll ask you to leave and not come back if she sees you abusing your dog.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Did you ask why they were doing certain things? 
Sometimes clubs won't do their "normal" training when guests are present. 

I've seen most of what you described in a normal day of training, except the kicking isn't the norm. 
I don't agree with much of it, and won't subject my dog to techniques that are not fair. But to a casual observer the training we do may seem harsh. I'm not upholding the club or their training techniques, but understanding/asking questions may help you to see the whys/whatfor's and then judge whether it was over the top.
I've seen a dog scream on electric, to bring him to go faster on the retrieve, but it wasn't the electric that was making him scream, it was his silly crazy mind! He has enthusiasm and his control isn't always balanced To someone not knowing the dog, they may think he was being fried.


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## VonKromeHaus (Jun 17, 2009)

I would check out some other clubs. Don't be afraid to ask questions and chat with people. It may give a new light on things being done. I have never seen kicking but have seen the other stuff. We all try to be fair to our dogs, some people just train different than others, doesn't mean it is right or wrong. Just different than the you/me/others would want to train. Sometimes asking questions clears up some confusion about certain things!


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

That's to bad. When I went to visit our local PSA club I saw a lot of happy, willing dogs. I did see some prongs, but no corrections harder than what I've delivered in our "95% positive" obedience class. One dog was wearing an e-collar for some work at a distance from the handler, but again the dog was happy and engaged. I never knew if they used the e-collar or not. 

I will say that if you're set on using 100% positive training, Schutzhund may not be the sport for you. Part of the protection aspect involves putting the dogs in stressful situations.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

corrections are fine, stress is fine...

but this was beat the dog down until he does what you want (in the obedience not bite work) and from my perspective it wasn't working. the other members seemed a bit more laid back and more acceptable style. the problem was this was the director of the club doing these things...


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

As long as you hold the end of the leash, your dog will receive the treatment and training you administer. Now if they were making others train this way or if there was nobody training the way you feel comfortable with....then run. But I don't let others methods affect me and my dog unless they try to impose it on me. I doubt you will find a club in which some members aren't more heavy handed than others(minus the kicking). (And even with that, there's a difference in kicking a dog outright, and using your foot very quickly to correct a position oh the heel ).


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Check out some other clubs. Some clubs are very, very hard on dogs..... Others are not.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

the kicking was to get a stand from a sit. basically kicking the dogs gut right by his hind leg to get him up...

again, i hope it doesnt sound like i am judging. i have never titled a dog in anything and am very new to all this. it all just made me very uncomfortable. i don't coddle my dog and am very stern at times. i just don't see the neccessity of over using physical force as smart as these dogs are...

to each his own. i know im on the end of the leash for my dog and he is in the crate when you train yours... but i don't want to promote and watch you beat your dog into submission. so yes, i will be looking for a different club or perhaps even sport.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

grimm said:


> the kicking was to get a stand from a sit. basically kicking the dogs gut right by his hind leg to get him up...


Huh. . . I teach stand by taking my toe and kind of nudging that area. . . can't imagine why you'd need a kick, that's a pretty sensitive body zone. 





grimm said:


> to each his own. i know im on the end of the leash for my dog and he is in the crate when you train yours... but i don't want to promote and watch you beat your dog into submission. so yes, i will be looking for a different club or perhaps even sport.


No, I agree with you. I haven't dealt with it with dogs, but when I was riding cutting and team penning horses I left training groups for the same reason. I realize I'm not the one kicking my horse with spurs until blood runs down its side, but I can't stand here and watch you do it either. And yeah, I am judging. Some stuff there's no excuse for.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Emoore said:


> Huh. . . I teach stand by taking my toe and kind of nudging that area. . . can't imagine why you'd need a kick, that's a pretty sensitive body zone.


When I teach the stand for Rally Obedience, all I have to do it lightly touch that area. And I only do that when they are not responding/understanding. 

(And I have a dog that likes to "talk back" when I'm working with him.)


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

We didn't see what you saw so I'm not really sure what we can be expected to say. Everyone has their own goals, their own comfort levels. I can be in a club where people train dogs I don't like using methods I don't like and be just fine. There are some things I will not tolerate but so far the clubs I've trained with have never gone to that level, so I can agree to disagree on things and not leave the club. If I was feeling pressured to do something with my dogs I didn't agree with, I'd leave. There are always other trainers, other clubs, or you can start your own club.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

Liesje said:


> We didn't see what you saw so I'm not really sure what we can be expected to say. Everyone has their own goals, their own comfort levels. I can be in a club where people train dogs I don't like using methods I don't like and be just fine. There are some things I will not tolerate but so far the clubs I've trained with have never gone to that level, so I can agree to disagree on things and not leave the club. If I was feeling pressured to do something with my dogs I didn't agree with, I'd leave. There are always other trainers, other clubs, or you can start your own club.


would you pay to teach at a school where some teachers thought beating kids was ok? the problem lies in the fact that i would be paying fees and supporting this club. i wouldn't feel pressured into their mentallity of training, but im not going to support it.

i understand you didnt see what i saw. so far i have read three books entirely on schutzhund training and watched countless videos. i have never seen anything more than a quick jerk on a prong for corrections. the lack of shock and awe at these posts leaves me believing schutzhund training is not where i thought it was and still mostly compulsion training. thanks for all the responses, especially the supportive ones.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm saying I wasn't there so I don't know what you saw or how it is being framed. As I said I do have some standards and won't stick around even if *I'm* not the one doing it, but I guess I've been lucky so far with the couple of clubs I've trained with as a member or a guest I have not observed dogs being abused (in my opinion).

The lack of shock and awe is because no one saw what you saw and a public forum is probably not the appropriate place to call people out on that without more detail. Did you raise your concerns with the TD or explained how you felt and why you would not be back?


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I'm saying I wasn't there so I don't know what you saw or how it is being framed. As I said I do have some standards and won't stick around even if *I'm* not the one doing it, but I guess I've been lucky so far with the couple of clubs I've trained with as a member or a guest I have not observed dogs being abused (in my opinion).
> 
> The lack of shock and awe is because no one saw what you saw and a public forum is probably not the appropriate place to call people out on that without more detail. Did you raise your concerns with the TD or explained how you felt and why you would not be back?


am i calling someone out? i was there as a guest and was in no place to tell them how to train their dogs. i'm sure they have far more experience in this realm than i. so no, i didnt share my concerns. they can train their dogs as they like. this post was to ask: am i naive? is this normal? should i look for a different sport?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm just not sure what you want people here to say? "Oh yes, Schh is abusive and don't do it if you won't abuse your dog." No, maybe for some people but for most people here I don't get that vibe at all. There is no "normal", every club is a different combination of dogs, trainers, methods, experiences. Many people here drive 2-3 hours to train with one club and pass on clubs that are 30 minutes away. It's all about fit but what's important to you may not matter to someone else.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I have competed with dogs since the early 80's and I can guarantee that you will not find a dog sport that doesn't have some trainers that train with methods you may deem too harsh. You just need to find a club/trainer where you can be comfortable no matter the type of training or sport you eventually chose.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

Liesje said:


> I'm just not sure what you want people here to say? "Oh yes, Schh is abusive and don't do it if you won't abuse your dog." No, maybe for some people but for most people here I don't get that vibe at all. There is no "normal", every club is a different combination of dogs, trainers, methods, experiences. Many people here drive 2-3 hours to train with one club and pass on clubs that are 30 minutes away. It's all about fit but what's important to you may not matter to someone else.


just curious and want more info.... 

it was the first club i visited and i was shocked to say the least.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

All we can say is visit more clubs. If there are people here that train using methods you or I might consider abusive I doubt they will come out and say so (or they won't consider their training abusive). Even if you loved this club we would still recommend to try as many clubs as you can before making the decision. I'm not trying to pick on you but look at it from the other perspective...there are people here (not me) who have done this for decades and put their blood and sweat into training dogs right and helping other people train dogs right so it can be unnerving when someone comes in and asks whether all clubs have TDs who kick their dogs around. I've had so many people help me in so many ways, way more experiences with that than people I can't watch train, I would hate for people to assume the sport as a whole is abusive. Don't let one person ruin it for you or anyone else, if you want to do SchH there is a club out there for you it's just a matter of finding the fit.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

It's too bad that you didn't like what you saw...Schutzhund training is the one part of my week that I fully and completely look forward to (I drive 2 hours each way). 

Like Lies said, we have our own sense of what we can deal with seeing or what's being done at different clubs and I think that if you REALLY want to do this, you should make a few more visits to that club as well as try to find other clubs to make a couple visits to.

Talk to the TD and ask him/her why they use those methods and what other methods they use on other/different dogs...I'm not condoning the abuse of dogs during training, but perhaps they had an independent/dominant dog with high pain/correction thresholds. 

As a new person to the sport, I think it would be invaluable to you to visit with and talk to as many clubs/people/trainers/handlers as possible. This way, even if you see what you don't like, you will be able to get a better grasp on what you DO like so that you can communicate that with you TD or Sch helper you are working with. 

Last, I LOVE Sheila Booth's books...but they are only just one training method/technique out there. I use many of her techniques...but not all of them, as the dogs I have/had do require some compulsion and stress/corrections to perform well. This is something, that with time, you will understand better by not just reading and watching videos, but by exposing yourself to as much as possible and actually apply it and/or see it being applied. 

Good luck!


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

Liesje said:


> All we can say is visit more clubs. If there are people here that train using methods you or I might consider abusive I doubt they will come out and say so (or they won't consider their training abusive). Even if you loved this club we would still recommend to try as many clubs as you can before making the decision. I'm not trying to pick on you but look at it from the other perspective...there are people here who have done this for decades and put their blood and sweat into training dogs right and helping other people train dogs right so it can be unnerving when someone comes in and asks whether all clubs have TDs who kick their dogs around. Don't let one person ruin it for you or anyone else.


i apologize. maybe my thread title and first post was too harsh, but this is the exact response i was looking for. thank you. you have given me hope.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

Hillary_Plog said:


> It's too bad that you didn't like what you saw...Schutzhund training is the one part of my week that I fully and completely look forward to (I drive 2 hours each way).
> 
> Like Lies said, we have our own sense of what we can deal with seeing or what's being done at different clubs and I think that if you REALLY want to do this, you should make a few more visits to that club as well as try to find other clubs to make a couple visits to.
> 
> ...


great advise. thank you. 

having a young pup just puts me in an idealistic mind set i guess. i know the truth comes through experience and it can be extremely trying at times, but also very rewarding for me as well as my pup.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

If you want a true idea of what SchH is about, use multiple resources to properly educate yourself about the sport. Read books, forum posts, online resources, visit clubs and watch videos. Schh is difficult and takes a lot of perseverance. People (including me) take offense when a sport that we put our heart and soul into is attacked by someone observing the sport for the first time. It's just an instant gut reaction because we do put a LOT of money, effort and time into this. There are multiple ways to train a dog and Schh is done in many different ways. No one dog can be trained exactly like another. Some dogs do need hard corrections because they are hard dogs. If the trainer is worth it, they will fairly use the appropriate corrections on the dogs that need it. You were just an observer and it was your first time. I can't say for sure what was actually going on at this club. I am sure if you came to my club, you could find training methods that you disagreed with. 

Observe different clubs, ask why certain methods are being used, educate yourself on the history and purpose of Schh and then make a well-rounded estimation on if you want to pursue this sport or not. Different clubs approach training differently. I have a club 5 mins down the street that I choose not to attend because I disagree with their practices. I drive 1.5hrs each way to go to a club that I absolutely love. We have a member that drives 5 hours each way and gets up at 4AM on a Sat to make it to training. Like Hillary said, Schh is without a doubt the highlight of my week. I can't describe the feeling of euphoria that I get when I pull into the Schh field. It's worth it to us because the positive aspects of the sport outweigh the negativity. I am sure there are trainers out there that still tie a dog up a pole and beat the daylights out of it, but I don't let negative aspects of the sport sour the entire experience. There is bad in most anything out there, it's up to us to make an educated estimation about the sport as a whole.


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## marielrowland (Jan 6, 2011)

I know next to nothing about Shutzhund but am disturbed by what you observed.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

marielrowland said:


> I know next to nothing about Shutzhund but am disturbed by what you observed.


And that's exactly the sort of thing that people that love Schh don't want to see happen. When posts like this are read by newcomers, it immediately turns them off and generates negative publicity for the sport. Those that do and love the sport know what the sport can be....try not to let one or two negative secondhand experiences ruin an otherwise great sport...


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

qbchottu said:


> And that's exactly the sort of thing that people that love Schh don't want to see happen. When posts like this are read by newcomers, it immediately turns them off and generates negative publicity for the sport. Those that do and love the sport know what the sport can be....try not to let one or two negative secondhand experiences ruin an otherwise great sport...


what it can be or what it is? educate us. create some good publicity. what i observed was very bad publicity. i posted it here and it was defended by yea some clubs are hard handed, you might not agree with some training methods. it seems this goes on and it just is what it is. this was first hand experience for me on something i have been researching quite a while and was really excited about. i havent lost hope and plan to visit a few more clubs.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

My second post was referring to Mariel and an example of how your post on your first outing showcases negative aspects of the sport which in turn are going to deter other people from further exploring the sport. This sport cannot survive if we don't get new blood. Did you speak to the trainer and gain some information on WHY things were done as they were? I am not attacking you at all. I am genuinely interested. I would be curious as to what the trainer says. 

Now onto the positive aspects:
1. You gain an incredible bond with your dog. It is absolutely one of the most rewarding experiences when you gain that level of understanding with your dog. I thought I loved my dog. But after Schh, there needs to be a new word for what I have now with my dog. 
2. Schh carries over into "real life". The obedience, control and skills that my dogs learn at Schh make them better dogs. 
3. Ability to keep cool under stress. Not just for the dogs, for me as well. Handling large, high energy animals under the stress of bitework and training has done wonders for both the dogs and me. My dogs are infinitely more coolheaded after Schh. My dog with shaky nerves is like a new dog after being out in the Schh field. 
4. Physical exercise for the dogs and me. Working dogs is without a doubt my favorite workout. I haven't even opened the door to my gym since I started Schh. Workouts were something I had to before Schh, now it's the highlight of my day. 
5. Competition. I was an athlete in school and college. Now out in the real world, I was lacking that in my life. I wanted real competition and a challenge to work towards. Schh keeps me in that athlete mind frame. I don't focus every minute of my day on Schh, but it gets me through the rest of my day. Waking up before dawn, running and working the dogs sounds like a chore for some people, but for me, it's like a drug. I am incredibly competitive and very driven. I also love team sports. My dog and I are a team that take on this sport. I love this sport more than any other sport I have participated in. It combines my love of dogs with a love of competition, physical activity and teamwork.
6. Relationships formed with other people and dogs. I have met some incredible people through this sport and they will remain my lifelong friends. After Schh training on Sat, my club has a potluck type lunch where we drink a lot and talk dogs. It beats any fancy bar out there  My dog friends aren't friends...they are family

There are more and hopefully others can help me out, but I am drawing a blank right now on more. It's like looking at a marathon runner and wondering why they do it. We do it because we have to. The sport gives us a sense of fulfillment that other activities don't come close to. At least for me, Schh is a lifelong journey that I take with my dogs. Not all of them will do well, but it is the journey that I love. The time we spend together working toward an ultimate goal is priceless. That is Schh for me.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

If you are interested in doing the sport, keep looking until you find a outlet that you are comfortable with. In my opinion, the most important thing is to keep it fun for the dog. Keep them wanting more. We have to remember that these poor animals really have no choice in who ownes them or what we do with them. Treat them with dignity and let the dog go as far as they are willing to go. (I am no expert, I am just learning myself but I never want to loose compasion for my animals in the name of winning).


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> Did you ask why they were doing certain things?
> Sometimes clubs won't do their "normal" training when guests are present.
> 
> I've seen most of what you described in a normal day of training, except the kicking isn't the norm.
> ...


I used to always tell visitors that my female will yell like I'm killing her even when she's on a fursaver, not being corrected, just being asked to sit. Simply to address any misconceptions before they start


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

grimm said:


> the pup and i went to visit/watch training at a local club yesterday and we saw...
> 
> constant, HARD jerking on prongs,
> yelling,
> ...


Did someone evaluate your pup? It is not as much as only you being interested in Schutzhund, the dog has to be interested too. What you are complaining about is secondary, primary goal should be to determine if the sport is feasible and the dog is an important part of the equation. Training methods, likes and dislikes are secondary.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

Packen said:


> Did someone evaluate your pup? It is not as much as only you being interested in Schutzhund, the dog has to be interested too. What you are complaining about is secondary, primary goal should be to determine if the sport is feasible and the dog is an important part of the equation. Training methods, likes and dislikes are secondary.


as pack leader i am responsible for protecting pack members. no i didnt get an eval and no i won't force him when i find a good club.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Gabor's place is where I'd go if I lived in your area.... 
Alpha K9 In Home Dog Training - Nashville TN


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Actually Packen makes a solid point. No point putting in time and energy into looking for a club only to realize that your dog isn't cut out for the sport. _Force_ him?? I doubt many clubs will spend their and your time trying to work a dog that isn't right for the sport.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

grimm said:


> as pack leader i am responsible for protecting pack members. no i didnt get an eval and no i won't force him when i find a good club.


An evaluation has nothing to do with force.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I second Gabor as well. Saw him and his dogs at a show in Indy. He has a good attitude and is a solid trainer. Recommended by other trainers as well.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

Packen said:


> An evaluation has nothing to do with force.


 i meant if the eval shows he isn't cut out for the work i won't force it.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Packen said:


> An evaluation has nothing to do with force.


If I'm a newbie to Schutzhund, and I'm not sure what all it entails, and I don't know what an evaluation is, and I just saw a guy kicking his dog and jerking on its ears, and he walked over to me and offered to "evaluate" my dog-- I'd tell him where he could stick his "evaluation." 

Yes I know that was the longest run-on sentence in the world.

I don't know what the OP saw, but it was enough to seriously disturb him or her. If someone's training method seriously disturbs me, I'm not letting them hold my dog's leash while I take a leak.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> Gabor's place is where I'd go if I lived in your area....
> Alpha K9 In Home Dog Training - Nashville TN


heard great things about him. just don't see anything other than obedience training and such on the site. no schh club info etc. i plan on visiting harpeth river club soon.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

They have a club, smithie86(sue, his wife) is on here regularly. They are away at a trial this weekend, but I'd contact them before going elsewhere.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

grimm said:


> heard great things about him. * just don't see anything other than obedience training and such on the site*. no schh club info etc. i plan on visiting harpeth river club soon.


Huh????

von Tajgetosz German Shepherds - Gabor Szilasi
 * Year  **Dog (all trained by Gabor)*
1976 Axel SCH3,VK3*(10th place, Gabor 22 years old)*

1977 Axel SCH3, VK3

1978 Axel SCH3, VK3

1989 Bavaria Larry SCH3, IPO3, VK3

1990 Bavaria Larry SCH3, IPO3, VK3

1991 Bavaria Larry SCH3, IPO3, VK3

1992 Bavaria Larry SCH3, IPO3, VK3

1994 Bavaria Larry SCH3, IPO3, VK3

1995 Bavaria Larry SCH3, IPO3, VK3*(20th place)*

1996 Bavaria Larry SCH3, IPO3, VK3

2001 KK1 Drigon from Korinthiakos SCH3,IPO3,VK3,FH 

2002 KK1 Drigon from Korinthiakos SCH3,IPO3,VK3,FH

2003 KK1 Drigon from Korinthiakos SCH3,IPO3,VK3,FH  

2005 KK1 Molinari Enzo SCH3,IPO3,VK3, FH
2006 KK1 Molinari Enzo SCH3,IPO3,VK3, FH
*  (Qualified for 3 World teams - 2xFCI, WUSV)*
2007 KK1 Molinari Enzo SCH3,IPO3,VK3, FHon both FCI and 
 WUSV World Teams. 
2008 KK1 Molinari Enzo SCH3,IPO3,VK3, FHon both FCI and 
 WUSV World Teams. 
 Team Captain for WUSV Hungarian Team
 Invited to the 2008 Masters Tournament
2009Team practice helper for the WUSV USA team in Krefeld  
 Germany
2010 KK1 Frodo van de Biezenhoeve SCH3, IPO3, HPO3 on
 both FCI and WUSV World Teams at 3.5 years/of age!
2011 KK1 Frodo van de Biezenhoeve SCH3, IPO3, HPO3 on both 
 FCI and WUSV World Teams.
 Invited to the 2011 Masters Tournament


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

From Gabor's site: Individual lessons that are tailored to the specific needs of your dog, from regular home obedience/manners to *specialized training for competition*.

I'm sure he does Schh training seeing as he has an incredible list of accomplishments in the sport. At the very least, he can properly evaluate your dog and see if it's worth it to pursue Schh.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

yes, yes, i see all the titles and i know he works dogs, but it says nothing about having a club people can actually join. the training only lists basic obedience and such


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> They have a club, smithie86(sue, his wife) is on here regularly. They are away at a trial this weekend, but I'd contact them before going elsewhere.


Have him evaluate your dog. He knows what he is doing. If anyone can help you, Gabor and Sue can.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

*specialized training for competition *is probably out of my price range. i am not sure i would even want to compete. i want to have fun, want my dog to have fun and the many other benefical aspects the training would have for us both.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

If you are on Facebook, Sue and Gabor's club is O.G. Nashville. They may also have a club website.
This weekend they are at regionals in SC.


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> They have a club, smithie86(sue, his wife) is on here regularly. They are away at a trial this weekend, but I'd contact them before going elsewhere.





gagsd said:


> If you are on Facebook, Sue and Gabor's club is O.G. Nashville. They may also have a club website.
> This weekend they are at regionals in SC.


 
thanks guys. i will look into it.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Clubs vary in price, good help can be less costly than bad helperwork/training.

I paid to train for almost 2 years without being in a "club", and it wasn't because I wanted to be on a podium/compete...it was because I enjoyed it and so does my dog. 
He's now 3 and all we have is a BH to show for all the $ and time invested. 
I would still be with that pay to train helper, but he decided to stop travelling 2 hours to train with our group. I could have pushed my dog to get to a 3 by now, but I know that it wouldn't be the best thing for him.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

grimm said:


> the pup and i went to visit/watch training at a local club yesterday and we saw...
> 
> constant, HARD jerking on prongs,
> yelling,
> ...


Our very first obedience class shocked me. It was pure compulsion and Bailey was too young and we (I!) was/were in over our heads from the get-go. There wasn't any pulling of ears, shock collars or kicking, though. There was yelling and the use of prongs on all the dogs. I'd never used a prong and knew next to nothing on how to use one. I had no opinion on it, I just had no exposure to it. They gave me no info, they just put it on him and apparently expected me to automatically know how to use it. I didn't know how.

We participated (or tried to) for a short time, and I pulled out of the ring. I wasn't doing it "right" and I was getting yelled at and the whole thing was just wrong. I know I have to feel confident in whatever I'm doing and I wasn't. 

We never went back.

Many months later, I think on that experience and see it a little differently. They should have done things differently -- they were wrong to put that prong on and never give me a second's worth of information on how to use it. Yelling and hollering at me when my dog gave a sideways sit was over the top. BUT, this was a very different type of training environment. It was a no-nonsense, get it done type of environment. It wasn't a shove a treat down the doggie's throat so doggy sits kind of thing. It was more, doggy *will* do this, and doggy will do this right. 

It was wrong for me and for my dog at that time. I might consider going back this spring sometime, because my dog is older and I don't want to be dependent on treats anymore. Now that my dog knows what is expected of him, it may be time for this type of training. I'm not sure, I'm still thinking on it.

Bottom line, I suppose, is that it might not have been what it appeared to be. I don't want to discount what you've said, though. I just know my experience was "shocking," but after some time to learn and process, I understand what they were trying to do, and how they were doing it, much better. 

I'm on the fence and picky on the training stuff insofar as I don't want pure positive, nor pure compulsion. I want a mix. It's hard to find a training facility that goes both ways.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

I posted that as an indication that your dog falls in between the "absolute beginner to highly skilled" level so Gabor can help you regardless of what your skill level is and what your ultimate goal is.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

chelle said:


> I'm on the fence and picky on the training stuff insofar as I don't want pure positive, nor pure compulsion. I want a mix. It's hard to find a training facility that goes both ways.


Yeah it is. That's why I :wub: my training facility so much!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Emoore said:


> If I'm a newbie to Schutzhund, and I'm not sure what all it entails, and I don't know what an evaluation is...


nough said.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Packen said:


> nough said.


I'm trying to help people see the OP's viewpoint.


Only people who are already experienced competitors should visit clubs?


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Sometimes, a fresh set of eyes have 20/20 vision.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Emoore said:


> I'm trying to help people see the OP's viewpoint.
> 
> 
> Only people who are already experienced competitors should visit clubs?


No, best to leave ego and judging at home.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Packen said:


> No, best to leave ego and judging at home.


Guess we'll have to agree to disagree with that one. It's my job to judge who I'm going to hand my dog off to. It's not an ego thing, it's my responsibility to my dog. I'll refuse to hand my dog off to a groomer, a vet, a Schutzhund evaluator, or anyone else I'm not comfortable with. I don't have to be an expert in grooming, veterinary science, or Schutzhund; I just have to be an expert in my dog.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

You never hand your dog off for an evaluation. That's what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to send across. Jeez, the drama.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

Packen said:


> You never hand your dog off for an evaluation. That's what I am trying (unsuccessfully) to send across. Jeez, the drama.


But was that explained to the OP?


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Emoore said:


> But was that explained to the OP?


Well duh!! someone who doesn't understand the very beginner basics should not be casting stones.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Packen said:


> nough said.


Honestly, what value does this drive-by snippet have? 

None! 

"Jeez the drama..." It seems that these drive by pokes invoke far more drama than a simple, but concise explanation of the point attempting to be made.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Newcomers may not even know the questions to ask.
If "we" are concerned about schutzhund and public opinion, we should train fairly, and seek to educate, not be seen to close ranks.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Packen said:


> Well duh!! someone who doesn't understand the very beginner basics should not be casting stones.


You're over the top. The OP was confused as to what he witnessed. You, in your experience, are light years away and shame on you for being so harsh on a "newbie." Folks like you are what chase away those who entertain the idea of this sport.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

chelle said:


> You're over the top. The OP was confused as to what he witnessed. You, in your experience, are light years away and shame on you for being so harsh on a "newbie." Folks like you are what chase away those who entertain the idea of this sport.


Can I hold your hand and chant kumbayaa?


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

Packen said:


> Well duh!! someone who doesn't understand the very beginner basics should not be casting stones.


 
You don't think that a person who doesn't understand the very beginner basics can recognize good training...because I think beginners aren't really all that dumb I think that they can recognize good training-you don't have to be a rocket scientist to recognize it when you see it.-Personally have never experienced what the OP has-but I have met people a lot like you though


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Packen said:


> Can I hold your hand and chant kumbayaa?


No, I'm not holding your hand - hard telling where it's been. You can chant on your own all you want. 

You're a poor diplomat for your sport.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

chelle said:


> No, I'm not holding your hand - hard telling where it's been. You can chant on your own all you want.
> 
> You're a poor diplomat for your sport.


You need an education.


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Schutzhund from a distance - 

Rude trainers, elitist competitors, people that use new "scary" training tools (e-collars/prongs), and people that don't want to take the time to answer your questions.

I am really glad I worked with the trainers I did in the beginning, because there sure are a lot of rude people in the sport that may have turned me a way from it... and it is something my dog and I love so much.


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## chelle (Feb 1, 2009)

Packen said:


> You need an education.


Education in what, rude man?


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## Falkosmom (Jul 27, 2011)

chelle said:


> No, I'm not holding your hand - hard telling where it's been.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I agree with holland in that I think most beginners who have a knack for training dogs CAN recognize good training when they see it, maybe not within 5 minutes but after "shopping around" a bit. Certain people/teams/clubs will stand out and not because they have world championship trophies. So, like I think Packen is trying to get at, there's no reason for people to get all up in arms about visiting Schutzhund clubs and having dogs evaluated before making those initial visits. Just go to the club, take your dog if you want to, and go from there. If the training is abusive then leave and don't go back.

I don't hand my dogs off to anyone...well that's not entirely true, I've helped other people with line handling and have had people helping me but I'm still standing there next to my dog controlling the training. Just because I insist on learning to handle my own dogs doesn't mean I don't trust the people I train with. I wouldn't be wasting my time if that was the case.


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## justde (Oct 4, 2000)

grimm said:


> what it can be or what it is? educate us. create some good publicity. what i observed was very bad publicity. i posted it here and it was defended by yea some clubs are hard handed, you might not agree with some training methods. it seems this goes on and it just is what it is. this was first hand experience for me on something i have been researching quite a while and was really excited about. i havent lost hope and plan to visit a few more clubs.


 What you saw was not schutzhund specific..you'll find people in any venue/all walks of life who are abusive, not just to dogs, but other animals and people as well. The old adage, don't judge a book by it's cover. Visit clubs and research further to get a true picture. Our membership application specifically states that abusive practices or portraying the sport is a bad light is grounds for termination of membership to our club.
Sue


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I know I am a bit late, but ENOUGH of the snide jabs at the OP, at novice people and to anyone else in the thread. 

ADMIN Lisa


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## grimm (Jan 20, 2012)

i never meant to say anything in the realm that i think this is schutzhund specific. i have seen tons of people beat there dogs. bullies are everywhere, in all walks, in all species. what was most shocking was that this person, was the director of an organized club and had personally invited me to come visit after contacting her. i don't agree with the harshness of training that i saw. this is not sparta. this is a sport. like i said i won't be going back there. the initial shock made me question if i wanted to expose my dog to this at all, i realise that was a bit folly. i believe compulsion has its place, just as i believe spanking a child has its place but i don't think it should happen at every little mishap with such harshness that i saw. it seems a few feather may have been ruffled because of this thread and i apologize for that. i was looking more for support that there are good clubs out there so keep looking and i guess i got that in a round about way. sorry again to any that have been offended in anyway by anyone in this thread. thank you.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

To the OP, go visit more clubs, don't be afraid to ask questions, listen and keep an open mind. There are some very good clubs out there with wonderful people. Then there are those that aren't so wonderful. People in dog sports are no different than people on the whole. 

Schutzhund is not an easy sport. It is very time consuming, the training is at times difficult, there is a tremendous amount of learning involved for both the dog and the handler, but it also can be very rewarding, a wonderful way to spend time with your dog and just plain fun.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The thing that impressed me about my club was how gentle the helpers were with the young dogs. I have also witnessed the members using a very firm hand when needed with the older dogs. I think we have a very good balance at my club. If the OP wants to do schutzhund, I suggest keep looking until he/she finds the right club for them. Even if the dog is evaluated and is found lacking in the proper drives and temperment for the sport, finding a good club is still important. There may be a chance to aquire another dog down the road if the OP really wants to participate.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

I can empathize!

When I first started exploring this sport I was put off too. Thanks to my experience with training horses I decided to keep trying to understand.

There's a couple of things that were going on for me when I first looked into SchH. One of the problems is we (as an animal loving society) have large and vocal groups who are proponents of 100% positive methods only all the time. So that was ingrained in my dog handling/training pysche prior to setting foot on the training field.

Secondly I've never had a dog that has the kind of drive found in GSDs with a lot of SchH (or work) drives genetically "programmed in" so to speak.

When Ilda's switch goes 'on' she's a different dog and it was an eye opening experience. 

So now when I step onto a training field things look different to me.

Having said that I see nothing wrong with you questioning and being cautious while you learn and get a better feel for the sport. 


Just be advised, it can be addictive. 



grimm said:


> great advise. thank you.
> 
> having a young pup just puts me in an idealistic mind set i guess. i know the truth comes through experience and it can be extremely trying at times, but also very rewarding for me as well as my pup.


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## Ingrid (Aug 29, 2010)

justde said:


> What you saw was not schutzhund specific..you'll find people in any venue/all walks of life who are abusive, not just to dogs, but other animals and people as well. The old adage, don't judge a book by it's cover. Visit clubs and research further to get a true picture. Our membership application specifically states that abusive practices or portraying the sport is a bad light is grounds for termination of membership to our club.
> Sue


:thumbup:

Sue, your club sounds like one I'd want to be in!


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Grimm,

Just saw this post.


We do not have a web-site yet (lot of clubs do not), but update through the FB page.
https://www.facebook.com/pages/OG-Nashville-Schutzhund-und-Polizei/225903480755640

The club is totally separate from our kennel/breeding program and Gabor's training business. That is why it is not listed on our k9imports web-site.

We are a full USCA club and we have people from novice to top proven levels. It is a true club - work together for training and support. Gabor is the only one in the area that has consistently trained and titled dogs himself. We have people in the club that do AKC, agility, just basic OB and IPO. We support and test rescues.

Hope that helps!


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