# My German Laydi might be pregnant at ten months!?



## Gabbi510

First off I dnt agree one bit! My bf and I were keeping our male Shepherd "Paco" from Laydi while in her heat, unfortunately while feeding them one day, the lock happened. We were both very upset, and I'm still worried for her health she's only ten months she's my baby. We are considering emergency "fixing" her, we wanted to have puppies but NOT like this, not jeopardizing her health and well being, What should we do fix her or let the process proceed, if she's pregnant she's about 3 1/2 weeks, we think she might b since she has been gaining weight and she's always been thin.... I desperatly need advice I feel like I'm running out of time and need to make a decision, Please advice :-confused:


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## Myamom

I'm going to notify the mods to move this to a more appropriate section..probably breeding...


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## Betty

At 30 days you can get a blood test to confirm pregnancy. I'm not sure how late you can do a spay.

What does your vet say?

And I have to ask, she was in heat and you were feeding them together?


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## Myamom

Thank you mods for moving.


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## Lesley1905

Talk to your vet and ask him what would be the safest option for her! Good Luck!


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## KZoppa

talk to your vet and see what your options are. and i second the why do you feed them together if she was in heat question?


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## PaddyD

While feeding them one day the lock happened??!?!?!?
Ever heard of DON'T MESS WITH MOTHER NATURE?

sheeesh


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## StellaSquash

does the lock happen THAT fast? I've never seen it, so I have no idea, but I didn't think it could happen lightening fast...


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## Emoore

If your vet could do the spay this far along, that would be best for everybody. If not, find good homes for these puppies and then get her spayed.


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## BestK9GSD

Why weren't they spayed/neutered in the first place??


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## Emoore

BestK9GSD said:


> Why weren't they spayed/neutered in the first place??


According to the OP, they were planning to breed when the bitch got older.


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## Heagler870

BestK9GSD said:


> Why weren't they spayed/neutered in the first place??


Because some people like to do it when the dog is fully mature for growth purposes.


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## BestK9GSD

Heagler870 said:


> Because some people like to do it when the dog is fully mature for growth purposes.


Are they actually breeders doing this with the intent of improving the breed or just to get some cute puppies?


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## Betty

StellaSquash said:


> does the lock happen THAT fast? I've never seen it, so I have no idea, but I didn't think it could happen lightening fast...


Never has on any of my planned breedings................ROFL


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## ChancetheGSD

Both owners had to have walked out of the room and left them alone. I've never seen a male get it in on the first try. It typically takes a couple minutes of humping before it finds the right hole. LOL! Not to mention, a male would need time to get to the female and jump on her, if someone was in the room, this would allow plenty of time to grab the male before a tie could happen.

Nothing tells me that this was an "accident". An accident is a dog squeezing/chewing through a cage, chewing through a door and then breeding through a cage. Stupidity is letting a male and female dog, both unaltered and female in heat, eat together unsupervised.


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## Deuce

Lesley1905 said:


> Talk to your vet and ask him what would be the safest option for her! Good Luck!


I agree.


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## Emoore

Betty said:


> Never has on any of my planned breedings................ROFL


I've noticed that too. "Oops" litters happen lightning fast and you end up with 14 puppies. When your import female is being bred to a champion male it takes forever, she won't settle, and you finally end up with two puppies of whatever gender you don't have deposits for.


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## Lilie

StellaSquash said:


> does the lock happen THAT fast? I've never seen it, so I have no idea, but I didn't think it could happen lightening fast...


When my daughter was very young, she witnessed two dogs tied together. She was shocked. She asked me if EVERYTHING did that when they mated. With out missing a beat I told her "Yup! They sure did. Everything ties like that when they breed."


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## GSDElsa

What I don't understand is why you waited 3 1/2 weeks to consider your options???

Call a vet NOW and discuss what can be done.

That probably should have been done immediately after.


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## Emoore

Lilie said:


> When my daughter was very young, she witnessed two dogs tied together. She was shocked. She asked me if EVERYTHING did that when they mated. With out missing a beat I told her "Yup! They sure did. Everything ties like that when they breed."


Just don't come crying to us when she's 40 and you still don't have any grandchildren!


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## ChristenHolden

I 100% agree with Chance. When in heat the female should never be alowd around a male not even for a few seconds.


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## Gabbi510

ChancetheGSD said:


> Both owners had to have walked out of the room and left them alone. I've never seen a male get it in on the first try. It typically takes a couple minutes of humping before it finds the right hole. LOL! Not to mention, a male would need time to get to the female and jump on her, if someone was in the room, this would allow plenty of time to grab the male before a tie could happen.
> 
> Nothing tells me that this was an "accident". An accident is a dog squeezing/chewing through a cage, chewing through a door and then breeding through a cage. Stupidity is letting a male and female dog, both unaltered and female in heat, eat together unsupervised.


Yes that day we were getting rocks delivered in our home to put in the back yard so as they delivered it we walked out for a second then heard her scream and ran to the backyard, I've never seen it in my life so yes it was pretty quick! And as for breeding for puppies we already would have homes for them our families love dogs and we have a list of them that would want a puppy unfortunately I dnt think she's grown enough.


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## Gabbi510

ChristenHolden said:


> I 100% agree with Chance. When in heat the female should never be alowd around a male not even for a few seconds.


Now I know that


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## Gabbi510

GSDElsa said:


> What I don't understand is why you waited 3 1/2 weeks to consider your options???
> 
> Call a vet NOW and discuss what can be done.
> 
> That probably should have been done immediately after.


We were hoping she didn't get pregnant with that one time, they can't do a blood test until 3 weeks and they can't to an ultrasound till 4 weeks.... I'm so confused on what to do we wanted puppies but not at her first heat.... Has anyone heard of this happening to someone and everything coming out ok?


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## Gabbi510

ChancetheGSD said:


> Both owners had to have walked out of the room and left them alone. I've never seen a male get it in on the first try. It typically takes a couple minutes of humping before it finds the right hole. LOL! Not to mention, a male would need time to get to the female and jump on her, if someone was in the room, this would allow plenty of time to grab the male before a tie could happen.
> 
> Nothing tells me that this was an "accident". An accident is a dog squeezing/chewing through a cage, chewing through a door and then breeding through a cage. Stupidity is letting a male and female dog, both unaltered and female in heat, eat together unsupervised.


I agree, we didn't know but we can't go back and change it, he really was showing no interest and we felt bad that they couldn't play with each other so we walked out to open the garage for our delivery and screams was what we heard next, I just would really appreciate advice on the situation, has there been situations where everythings turns out ok at such a young age or the odds are too great?


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## Betty

Your question is like asking if a 12 year old human gets pregnant will everything be ok...

You really need to talk to your vet, hopefully he will know enough about reproduction to judge the overall health, physical and mental maturity of your girl.

Most people aren't going to be able to really answer your question. Most breeders wait until the girl is at least 2 if not older.


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## ChristenHolden

I would say its like. 12 year old girl getting PG. After her first period. Could she have it probably but there are a lot more risks involved the younger you are. I would have given a Miss-Mate Shot and kept her away from the male the rest of the heat. Dogs are PG for 9 weeks give or take a day or 2. At 3 or 4 weeks you can do a emergancy Spay or you can wait and see. Take her to the Vet and see what they think is best for her.


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## GSDElsa

Gabbi510 said:


> We were hoping she didn't get pregnant with that one time, they can't do a blood test until 3 weeks and they can't to an ultrasound till 4 weeks.... I'm so confused on what to do we wanted puppies but not at her first heat.... Has anyone heard of this happening to someone and everything coming out ok?


 
But why didn't you just have her emergency spayed a week after it happened to take care of it no matter what?


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## Rerun

GSDElsa said:


> But why didn't you just have her emergency spayed a week after it happened to take care of it no matter what?


I think it's pretty clear the OP was planning to breed the dogs...so spaying her was likely something she did NOT want to do. People keep asking why she didn't spay her....that's why. She was already planning to breed her.


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## GSDElsa

Rerun said:


> I think it's pretty clear the OP was planning to breed the dogs...so spaying her was likely something she did NOT want to do. People keep asking why she didn't spay her....that's why. She was already planning to breed her.


Yes, but now she's wanting or at least considering to spay her. So she should have thought of all that weeks ago instead of going into panic mode now...........

Just argh.


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## LaRen616

Babies having babies :nono:


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## LaRen616

I would do the emergency spay ASAP.

Your dog is too young to have puppies, what if it kills her?

I would much rather do an emergency spay and lose the chance of having a puppy from my dog, than to lose my dog period.


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## Lucy Dog

Gabbi510 said:


> Yes that day we were getting rocks delivered in our home to put in the back yard so as they delivered it we walked out for a second then heard her scream and ran to the *backyard*, I've never seen it in my life so yes it was pretty quick! And as for breeding for puppies we already would have homes for them our families love dogs and we have a list of them that would want a puppy unfortunately I dnt think she's grown enough.


Congratulations. You are officially a backyard breeder. 

Hopefully it's not too late to abort the pregnancy and get her spayed. If it is, good luck getting all those puppies good homes. Hopefully they don't end up dying in a shelter some day.


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## KZoppa

the one dog i know that got pregnant was 9 months old. She had ELEVEN puppies. She was a smaller female despite the breeds she was mixed with. She was STILL a puppy herself. She survived the pregnancy and birthing all those puppies. She was a fabulous mom for about a week and then my husband and i had to take over caring for the pups. Why us? because her owner was never around (she was our roommate at the time) and we couldnt sit by and watch the puppies die because their mom was only a pup herself who really shouldnt have been allowed into the position to get pregnant. I still say, since its too late, to talk to you vet about the issue. You could very well lose your dog in the process. I'm not trying to bust you or make you feel worse but i honestly hope this teaches you to NEVER even for a second allow a female in heat around an intact male. They must ALWAYS be supervised. and if they cant be, they need to be seperated.


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## Sigurd's Mom

I think she's too young. Recently I knew of someone who allowed their female dog get pregnant to a mutt at 9 months old. They wanted her to experience mother hood (ugh). The time came and she was in labour, it was obvious she had quite a few pups in her. She gave birth to a few dead ones, 2 hours later, a live one, almost 5 hours later, the final pup. The first live pup died within 2 days. The final pup is alive but the mother dog was so young and a pup herself, she didn't really care to take care of the remaining pup. They didn't think the final alive pup would survive, she was very cold and not really responding. With vet care and a lot of persistence, she's alive and healthy today but the whole situation could have been avoided. Her nipples dried up and the pup had to be bottle fed. Moral of the story: don't breed young bitches.  You never know what will happen. The mama dog got very sick and ended up getting an infection in her nipples.

Please go to the Vet and see what your options are.


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## Gabbi510

Sigurd's Mom said:


> Moral of the story: don't breed young bitches.  You never know what will happen. The mama dog got very sick and ended up getting an infection in her nipples.
> 
> Please go to the Vet and see what your options are.


Thank you this really helped me and it makes me sad but I rather have my girl alive than going through something bad like this :-( I called the vet they gave a price around 250


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## Jax08

$250 is not a bad price at all. You did tell them that she may be pregnant, right? Did they think that would be an issue at this stage?


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## Ryder&SophieSue

well i have personally had a dog bred at 9 months, (dachshunds) call me byb, but she had 7 very healthy happy puppies, she did a fantastic job...and i was right there with all my litters...If they needed help i helped, if not i left them alone...I personally would not do the e-spay...i just wouldn;t...that is just killing babies...


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## Zoeys mom

Killing babies or potentially saving mom's life and not subjecting puppies to a slow death? I highly doubt the OP has the hundreds of dollars it takes to get the mom and puppies to full term, have them all checked after birth, and to pay for any complications which are more likely due to her age. 

To the OP- it happened live and learn I'm not going to bash you, call you names, or tell you how unavoidable this was....you already know that. If you have $3,000 give or take to pay for proper care and any complications, can live with the possibility of your female dying, have 8 weeks off work in case the mom can't take care of them, and know how to bottle feed and express urine and fecals go for it. If not do the e-spay and save your female's life


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## sagelfn

If it is safe I would to the emergency spay. Its too late for a mismate shot right?

How old is the male? 

Just the female alone you have no idea what the puppies of this litter would turn out like. You haven't done any health testing, temperament testings, etc.. You may end up with 12 puppies with serious physical and mental issues.

If you still want to breed in the future spend some time researching what makes a good breeder and what type of dogs should be bred.


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## vat

I am glad you called your vet, I would follow his/her advice on this. What is done is done, you now have learned from your mistakes. I wish you the best of luck, please keep us posted on how your pup is doing.


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## Gabbi510

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> well i have personally had a dog bred at 9 months, (dachshunds) call me byb, but she had 7 very healthy happy puppies, she did a fantastic job...and i was right there with all my litters...If they needed help i helped, if not i left them alone...I personally would not do the e-spay...i just wouldn;t...that is just killing babies...


Thank you so much for not having a negative tone against me like every other person  now did the mother feed them was she a good mother?


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## ChristenHolden

250 Yikes  when I called our vet to do some priceing a dog Bellas size 65 pounds was 70 to 80$ and 10$ more if there PG. My brother had to have a E spay on his lil dog. It was 75. It would have been 65 if she had not been PG. I guess its all where u live.


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## Gabbi510

sagelfn said:


> If it is safe I would to the emergency spay. Its too late for a mismate shot right?
> 
> How old is the male?
> 
> Just the female alone you have no idea what the puppies of this litter would turn out like. You haven't done any health testing, temperament testings, etc.. You may end up with 12 puppies with serious physical and mental issues.
> 
> If you still want to breed in the future spend some time researching what makes a good breeder and what type of dogs should be bred.


See I called every vet I could the same day the locked happened and no one had the shot they said it was pulled off the market cuz it was causing too many health issues and risks in animals.... And my male is 1 1/2 yr he's very beautiful


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## Jax08

I'm sorry but beautiful doesn't mean breed worthy. Before a dog should be bred, both should be OFA'd at the very least. I wouldn't buy from someone who hasn't trialed their dogs. I want to know what temperament, drive, health the dogs have been shown to have. 

If you want to breed, then please do your research and find out how to do it correctly and how to do it so that you are bettering the breed. Not just because you have pretty dogs.


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## sagelfn

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> well i have personally had a dog bred at 9 months, (dachshunds) call me byb, but she had 7 very healthy happy puppies, she did a fantastic job...and i was right there with all my litters...If they needed help i helped, if not i left them alone...I personally would not do the e-spay...i just wouldn;t...that is just killing babies...


The maturity of small breed vs large breed are very different. A 10 month old GSD is not even close to physically mature. 

Really? are you comparing canine abortion to human abortion? Do we put unwanted, neglected children in gas chambers and kill them buy the boxload?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Ryder&SophieSue*  
_well i have personally had a dog bred at 9 months, (dachshunds) call me byb, but she had 7 very healthy happy puppies, she did a fantastic job...and i was right there with all my litters...If they needed help i helped, if not i left them alone...I personally would not do the e-spay...i just wouldn;t...that is just killing babies..._

Thank you so much for not having a negative tone against me like every other person  now did the mother feed them was she a good mother?

==================

Everyone else on this thread says talk to a vet, do a spay termination - just because one baby had a successful pregnancy (of a totally different breed) does not mean that your dog who is like an 8-10 year old child, will. 

Good job in calling and finding a reasonable price for the spay! 

We all have beautiful dogs here, we just like to leave the breeding to the people who understand health, temperament, genetics, and the breed.


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## LisaT

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> We all have beautiful dogs here, we just like to leave the breeding to the people who understand health, temperament, genetics, and the breed.


:thumbup:


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## Ryder&SophieSue

my mother did great, i did not have to supplement at all she was a fantastic mother...
I understand that breed wise they are totally different breeds, and maturity levels are different...But i go back to b4 these animals were domesticated, humans werent' there to separate them during heat cycles...I believe in let nature take its course unless the dog is FORSURE in danger...U do not know if this gal is going to have trouble...And yes i am putting this right up there with human abortion, i don' like it any better...Nor do i like the gas chambers filled with animals, but i do believe in giving the animals a chance at life...
besides the fact of it was really getting expensive here for the breeding, we got out of it because i didn't feel we were doing the breed any better..


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## Sunstreaked

Gosh, honey, I'm sure sorry you don't live in the perfect world we *all* do where nothing ever happens unexpectedly and EVERY SINGLE GS is bred for the betterment of the breed, never, EVER for just *omg* pets! 

/sarcasm off

Glad you're looking to do what's the right thing for your pup based on what your vet says and what's best for your girl. No matter the outcome, wish you all the best. Decisions are tough, but it's what is the 'best' good, imo.

Sorry, I'm grouchy tonight. Read pages and pages here of condemnation here and I guess it touched a nerve.


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## Jax08

Go pull a few dogs from shelters, or maybe pay for a couple of hip replacements because the "breeders" didn't OFA the parents prior to breeding, how about losing your dog to EPI, IBD, SIBO because the breeder didn't do their research

and what touches your nerves might change.


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## Ryder&SophieSue

wish u the best of luck...everyones views are different so i don't take any of this to heart...But just do what your gut tells you to do...


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## Emoore

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> But i go back to b4 these animals were domesticated, humans werent' there to separate them during heat cycles...


Wild canids come into their first heat much older than domestic dogs do, and also tend not to mate on the first heat.


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## selzer

Just because the bitch is young, she is not likely to have 12 deformed puppies. I think that is pretty much of a stretch and we should really have something to back that kind of statement up. 

Nevertheless, I think the spay is your best bet. It may be better that she is a couple of weeks along. The heat cycle is now over. The growth of the puppies is most in the final tri-mester (three weeks), so these little buggers are now just the size of pin pricks (not literally) and are only just now connecting to the uterine wall. An ovary hysterectomy at this point should be no more dangerous than an overy hysterectomy in a bitch without the possibility of pregnancy a couple of weeks after the heat is over. 

Spaying during the heat cycle when everything is enlarged etc, that is a lot more dangerous.

Just saying that it may actually be better to spay her now than two or three weeks ago.

And as for the hip replacements etc, that can happen when parents ARE OFAd. Just saying, it does not mean the dog will be worry free. Dogs live in an imperfect world, and they are subject to some diseases. None go through 13 or 14 years with no problems. 

My biggest concern is the pup's maturity and ability to cope with whelping and raising a litter. I have read that young bitches sometimes can be very flighty, reject the litter, even kill or eat the puppies. But also, final temperament is not set at ten months, so what is this young bitch going to imprint on her puppies. 

Because lets face it, it would be much better for these pups to be raised by a canine dam than humans. And the amount of time a bitch spends with her pups makes her imprinting crucial to their formation. Having to muzzle a bitch so the pups can get cholosterum is just not what we would want to do. Especially to the poor young bitch. 

Puppies need a LOT of care, for the first week or so, they cannot urinate or deficate on their own, so their foster parents must do that as well as tube feeding. 

I have an eight month old pup and a fifteen month old pup, and no way would I want for them to be pregnant at this point. 

Once she is spayed, it will take a couple of days, and she will be like new. 

Good luck with her.


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## Lucy Dog

Very nice post, selzer. Hopefully the OP comes back, sees this, and takes your advice.


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## Gabbi510

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> ...But i go back to b4 these animals were domesticated, humans werent' there to separate them during heat cycles...I believe in let nature take its course unless the dog is FORSURE in danger...U do not know if this gal is going to have trouble...And yes i am putting this right up there with human abortion, i don' like it any better...Nor do i like the gas chambers filled with animals, but i do believe in giving the animals a chance at life...
> besides the fact of it was really getting expensive here for the breeding, we got out of it because i didn't feel we were doing the breed any better..


That's what my father said when I asked for his advice, he said before donesticating dogs no one seperated them during heat


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## Lucy Dog

Gabbi510 said:


> That's what my father said when I asked for his advice, he said before donesticating dogs no one seperated them during heat


What kind of experience does your father have with dogs and breeding? Does he have any experience? How many years? How many litters? What credentials does he have to give advice on this specific situation? 

Some of the people who are giving you advice in this thread are breeders. They do have experience, with this breed specifically, and they do know what they're talking about. Just something to keep in mind.


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## selzer

A wild dog as opposed to a domestic dog, there is a big difference. 

If you look at wolves, their puppies play. But the adult wolves really do not. Where our domestic dogs play their entire lives. 

It is a different story for a critter brought up in the wild, hunting and scavanging to survive, as opposed to our dogs who get their kibble every morning and every evening, rain or shine.

I am guessing that a wild dog would be a lot more mature than a domestic dog at ten months, though I know of nothing to really back that up. 

Maybe the fact that adolescent dogs are usually the last to scarf up whatever remains of the kill, they probably would come into heat later, and possibly not even be fertile right away. It is also possible that if a young bitch had a litter within a pack, her pups might be stolen by a stronger female and raised by her. I have seen that happen on some rediculous show on a captive wolf pack. 

Anyways, the centuries between wild dogs and our domestic pet dogs are so many that comparing the two really does not make sense.


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## Chicagocanine

It is never a good idea for a 10 month old to have a litter. I'd say go for a spay if it is early enough in gestation.


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## paulag1955

ChristenHolden said:


> 250 Yikes  when I called our vet to do some priceing a dog Bellas size 65 pounds was 70 to 80$ and 10$ more if there PG. My brother had to have a E spay on his lil dog. It was 75. It would have been 65 if she had not been PG. I guess its all where u live.


Our vet charges around $200 for a non-emergency spay. We're going to have to pay a little extra, maybe around $50 more, to have a small hernia repaired at the same time. There are spay and neuter clinics around that will do the job for less, but I want the vet that I trust operating on my little girl.


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## Castlemaid

10 month old wolves would not be having litters. In a wolf pack, only the alpha female breeds (and sometimes the beta). The alpha female controls the other females and prevents them from being bred by the male. 

In Elizabeth Marshall Thomas's book "The Hidden Life of Dogs", where she allows her pack of pet dogs to run wild and intact so that she can study "natural" dog behaviour - The alpha male and the alpha female terrorize the lower ranking dogs in the house - the higher stress level of the lower ranked animals prevents the other females from coming into heat. When a low-ranking female does get pregnant by a low-ranking male and whelps a litter only to have the alpha female kill the newborns. 

So a 10 month old is still a low-ranking pup in a pack and would not normally be impregnated and having pups.


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## GSDElsa

Gabbi510 said:


> That's what my father said when I asked for his advice, he said before donesticating dogs no one seperated them during heat


I'm sorry, you need to stop looking at the one person in here who is telling you to go for it and take a darn serious look at all the people who are telling you not to. Dogs ARE NOT wolves. They ARE NOT undomesticated. They ARE NOT in the wild. They are animals who HAVE to live by our hand and are greatly affected by the actions of humans. Dogs have COMPLETLEY changed since "being domesticated" and comparing dogs thousands of years ago to today is one of the most ridiculous apples to oranges comparison I've ever seen. 

People have given you a zillion reasons to terminate this pregnancy. DO NOT IGNORE THAT ADVICE IF A VET WILL DO THEY SPAY. You dog is not old enough to know what serious, genetic health issues she may have. She is not mentally mature enough to handle a pregancy. I mean, can you IMAGINE a 10 year old girl getting pregnant and being expected to be a great mom??? She's just a baby herself. 

Not to mention the fact that there can be upteen medical complications during the birth that can seriously jeopordize her health as well as the puppys' health. And be horribly emotionally taxing and upsetting for any humans involved with a conscience. 

There is no reason on earth you "need" to have her have puppies. There are a zillion breeders out there and a zillion German Shepherds in shelters if you really want more as well as your friends and relatives. DO NOT put yourself and your literal "baby" of a dog through this.

I know an extremely responsible, extremely reputable, and extremely experienced breeder who just lost their entire small litter due to complications. I am just NOT in the mood today....


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## GMK

This is why irresponsible people should not own dogs. That poor puppy.


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## PaddyD

Castlemaid said:


> 10 month old wolves would not be having litters. In a wolf pack, only the alpha female breeds (and sometimes the beta). The alpha female controls the other females and prevents them from being bred by the male.
> 
> In Elizabeth Marshall Thomas's book "The Hidden Life of Dogs", where she allows her pack of pet dogs to run wild and intact so that she can study "natural" dog behaviour - The alpha male and the alpha female terrorize the lower ranking dogs in the house - the higher stress level of the lower ranked animals prevents the other females from coming into heat. When a low-ranking female does get pregnant by a low-ranking male and whelps a litter only to have the alpha female kill the newborns.
> 
> So a 10 month old is still a low-ranking pup in a pack and would not normally be impregnated and having pups.


Nonsense.
Dogs haven't been wolves for 10s of thousands of years and I am certain that 
10s of millions of puppies have been produced during that time by first-time-heat females. A few months ago I saw a woman walking a beautiful GSD male that was the offspring of just such a mating. She was joking how he was a child born out of wedlock... a teenage pregnancy. There was nothing wrong with him. Nevertheless, I hope OP will take puppy to the vet and let the vet help make the correct decision.


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## robinhuerta

I've been following this thread and it seems to be going slightly off track....
*My understanding is* the OP started by stating that she had an "oops" breeding with her young female, and was asking what actual risks can be involved....and for any advice.
Most replied to have the female spayed, some replied comparing the whelping to humans or wolves.
First (JMO)...Comparing domestic dogs to wolves (in most cases) is comparing apples to oranges..
Second (JMO)...Comparing animals to humans (in all cases) is ridiculous.
Wild animals and domesticated animals haven't lived comparatively since the beginning...Fighting for survival and the ability or right to reproduce, is far from fighting for the next treat , toy or ovulating/willing female.

Humans and animals are not the same...ever. *We tend to humanize them*.
As far as the obvious problem with the OP situation...."AN UNPLANNED BREEDING".
The health problems (for the young female) are actually not much different than with any other female.....*anything can happen.*
The problem is at this age of development, she *may not* have the instincts to properly care for the liter, and thus...the puppies can be at risk.
Health checks, hip certs etc...etc..are all necessary, and are usually done by most breeders.....but that's another topic.

*My personal advice to the OP is plain and simple....Since this accidental mating has occurred, and is completely the result of negligence by the humans involved.
IF you decide to allow the whelping of this litter, be emotionally & financially prepared for *any* and *all* complications that can result from it.
Be _prepared_ for any medical condition that your female may have (including death)..as it can happen to any female. Be _prepared_ to hand raise all puppies until they are old enough to place in homes. Be _prepared_ for the food, medications & inoculations that this litter will absolutely need. Be _prepared _to euthanize weak or unhealthy puppies. Be _prepared_ to have puppies running around your home possibly for weeks and months, if proper homes cannot be obtained........just be _prepared*.....this happens when we breed.*_
Robin


----------



## AgileGSD

I'm unsure how far along the dog would be at this point. If she is very close to whelping (within a couple weeks) I personally would not spay her. Spaying when they are that far along is basically like a c-section that ends with euthanizing the puppies. IMO that sort of a surgery is likely physically much more difficult on the mother than allowing her to have puppies. 

I am not supporting the breeding of this dog now or in the future. However, at 10 months old the risks of this bitch having puppies is the same as the risk of any dog having puppies. Actually, all things being equal many reproductive vets suggest breeding bitches as young as possible and back to back to back because that is what is easiest on the dog. Obviously, that isn't always ethically possible because of health testing, titling and breeders not wanting to have to place so many litters, so close together, etc. But health wise, there really is no reason to think that a 10 month old bitch is going to be a bad mother or have horrible complications due to her age. Sure she might be a bad mother but if she is, it won't be because of her age. Sure there might be complications but if there are, it won't be because of her age. 

That said, if you are going to have puppies, you need to be prepared. The following links should help.

Whelping Puppies:

Whelping Puppies, Woodhaven Style

Breeding Dogs

Newborn Puppies....Care of the Newborn puppy

Raising Puppies:

Developmental Stages

Raising a Litter of Puppies: Stimulation, Sensitization, and Socialization

Properly Socialized by Pat Schaap. Socializing by the rule of 7's

How to Select a Good Breeder | Dog Star Daily

Placing Puppies:

United Kennel Club: Placing Your Puppies In The Right Home

Screening Puppy Buyers

Puppy Purchase Contracts & Placing Puppies in a New Home
Contracts

Blank contracts


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

robinhuerta said:


> I've been following this thread and it seems to be going slightly off track....
> *My understanding is* the OP started by stating that she had an "oops" breeding with her young female, and was asking what actual risks can be involved....and for any advice.
> Most replied to have the female spayed, some replied comparing the whelping to humans or wolves.
> First (JMO)...Comparing domestic dogs to wolves (in most cases) is comparing apples to oranges..
> Second (JMO)...Comparing animals to humans (in all cases) is ridiculous.
> Wild animals and domesticated animals haven't lived comparatively since the beginning...Fighting for survival and the ability or right to reproduce, is far from fighting for the next treat , toy or ovulating/willing female.
> 
> Humans and animals are not the same...ever. *We tend to humanize them*.
> As far as the obvious problem with the OP situation...."AN UNPLANNED BREEDING".
> The health problems (for the young female) are actually not much different than with any other female.....*anything can happen.*
> The problem is at this age of development, she *may not* have the instincts to properly care for the liter, and thus...the puppies can be at risk.
> Health checks, hip certs etc...etc..are all necessary, and are usually done by most breeders.....but that's another topic.
> 
> *My personal advice to the OP is plain and simple....Since this accidental mating has occurred, and is completely the result of negligence by the humans involved.
> IF you decide to allow the whelping of this litter, be emotionally & financially prepared for *any* and *all* complications that can result from it.
> Be _prepared_ for any medical condition that your female may have (including death)..as it can happen to any female. Be _prepared_ to hand raise all puppies until they are old enough to place in homes. Be _prepared_ for the food, medications & inoculations that this litter will absolutely need. Be _prepared _to euthanize weak or unhealthy puppies. Be _prepared_ to have puppies running around your home possibly for weeks and months, if proper homes cannot be obtained........just be _prepared*.....this happens when we breed.*_
> Robin


Some real good advice here. 

However, as mammals there are comparisons to human & dog - think of cancer and other health issues that we share. There has to be some impact on a developing animal in terms of their body when giving birth. 

---> Also, IF you had to let the pregnancy go, which is probably unlikely, you could find a rescue in your area (there are a few in CA) that would help you place the puppies into homes that are carefully screened. Please let us know if you need contact info for that. We can help.


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## selzer

Stupid Question for those who own intact dogs and intact bitches:

Has ANYONE ever seen a dog being the perfect gentleman, minding his own business, eating his food next to his little bitch friend who happens to be at the perfect time of her cycle to be bred? I mean, does the mild mannered dog wait for Ma and Pa to leave the room and then have a super sex moment???

Scrawny, mangey, rangey, fence-climbing border collie mixes seem to be the ones that have both stealth and fertility down pat. 

Most of my shepherds are pretty forward about their intentions the moment they enter the room.


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## Gabbi510

selzer said:


> Stupid Question for those who own intact dogs and intact bitches:
> 
> Has ANYONE ever seen a dog being the perfect gentleman, minding his own business, eating his food next to his little bitch friend who happens to be at the perfect time of her cycle to be bred? I mean, does the mild mannered dog wait for Ma and Pa to leave the room and then have a super sex moment???
> 
> Scrawny, mangey, rangey, fence-climbing border collie mixes seem to be the ones that have both stealth and fertility down pat.
> 
> Most of my shepherds are pretty forward about their intentions the moment they enter the room.


So what's Ur point? The vet said shes 80% grown and shell b fine.... But I'm still thinking


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## elisabeth_00117

selzer said:


> Stupid Question for those who own intact dogs and intact bitches:
> 
> *Has ANYONE ever seen a dog being the perfect gentleman, minding his own business, eating his food next to his little bitch friend who happens to be at the perfect time of her cycle to be bred?* I mean, does the mild mannered dog wait for Ma and Pa to leave the room and then have a super sex moment???
> 
> Scrawny, mangey, rangey, fence-climbing border collie mixes seem to be the ones that have both stealth and fertility down pat.
> 
> Most of my shepherds are pretty forward about their intentions the moment they enter the room.


I live in a 20 floor highrise apartment building.

I live on the 3rd floor.

There is a intact female on the 18th, when she is in heat Stark goes nuts. 

Whinning, pacing, sitting by the door, asking to go out and he tracks her from the elevators to the doors to leave the building. Knows where she goes potty and will do ANYTHING to pull me near the area.

His BFF, a Golden (intact) does the same. Both males have NEVER been bred nor will they be and yet they still go nuts.

Just sayn' ....


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## elisabeth_00117

Gabbi510 said:


> So what's Ur point? The vet said shes 80% grown and shell b fine.... But I'm still thinking


This statement makes me sad.

It's people like you that make the shelters full and the rescues over their limits.

Shame on you.


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## Zoeys mom

No vet can tell you she'll be fine no matter her age. Is your financial situation conducive to paying for an emergency c-section because those definitely happen when pups turn sideways or come down tush first? Does your current schedule allow you to be home for 8 weeks in case there are complications and your female passes or is unable to care for her pups? Do you have access to puppy formula should she not produce enough milk or she dries up? Can you afford to give their first round of shots? Where will these pups be raised? Indoors, outdoors, whelping box, puppy pen......? Do you plan on having your vet check mom and all babies after delivery, and can you afford that?

I guess for me I wonder how much you think this endeavor will cost you and if you can satisfy these financial needs. I couldn't afford to breed a dog or take an extended leave from work. Ultimately the choice is totally yours and I hope all goes well. If your going to allow her to have these pups start planning now. Talk to your vet at length so you know what to look for in the mom and pups, make sure you have everything you need and a ton of support, and lastly do as much research as you can on what to do with the pups after birth and what they will need from you. Learn how to begin early socialization, initiate early grooming, and ensure these guys go to the best homes possible


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## selzer

Think quick. Time is running out. Either you subject your puppy to whelping and raising a litter, or get her spayed. It is your decision. 

By all means, go with what your vet says. Feed her science diet, get her spayed at six months -- yeah if you listened to your vet then this conversation wouldn't be taking place, and get vaccinations every year. 

I am going to say something. Vets are NOT experts on our breed. They know a lot about dogs in general and cats in general and birds and reptiles and horses and cattle. They know little about specific breed differences. Some know more than others. Physically, it is unlikely for your pup to DIE from this experience. But it is NOT a good experience for a ten month old pup. For a dachsund, not as big of a deal, they mature a whole lot faster. As for when to speuter, how often to give vaccinations, and what to feed, vets are not necessarily the best people to listen to, kind of a conflict of interests.


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## selzer

BTW, 40% of puppies do come out tush first, and some get stuck in either direction. Do you know how to determine whether your bitch is in trouble? 

There is nothing quite like talking on the phone to the vet in one hand, describing the tiny toenails you are seeing but are not coming out. And having to dig up in there to try to encourage the bitch to continue to push, trying not to let those little paws move back up and lose all that effort. 

As for the c-section. I had a litter of one puppy. The bitch did not get really big. Her temperature went down, and came up again as it should. No puppies. She had been through an ultrasound so there should have been puppies. Back to the vet we went for x-ray, one pup, very big. She would NEVER pass this pup naturally, and the pup was not large enough to get labor going -- average litter size is 7 puppies for our breed. So emergency c-section. Another $800, over and above the $700 for the ultra sound and the $100+ for the office call and the x-ray. 

She had the puppy, the next day she hemmoraged, and lost the puppy, I rushed her to the vet in order to save her life. 

This does not mean your girl CANNOT have a problem free whelping, but it is also very possible that she will have complications. 

Why risk it. 

You blew it. If your girl was two years old, and your boy got her, well ok, if she was eighteen months old, well, ok. But eight months old. You could not keep her separated from the male, or you let it happen. Either way, now the choice is to do the right thing and spay this girl NOW, or to forge on ahead risking your pup, and for what? 

For some puppies that you may have trouble finding good homes for due to how closely you resemble a byb. And educated buyers, the ones likely to have the knowledge and experience with the breed to give your pup an excellent home, they will not buy from you.

When you run out of family and friends, the remaining pups can always be sold on Craigslist for a modest rehoming fee. 

I don't think you are thinking this through.


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## JustMeLeslie

I think you should get another vet's opinion. I just can't believe a vet would say that a shepherd that young would be fine. I think your vet has potential money on the brain. I mean if there are complications,care for pregnant mommy, and aftercare for mom and puppies---more money for the vet. A long time ago we had a dog given to us and when they dropped her off she turned out to be in heat. We had a 7 month old male mixed breed that we thought was too young to reproduce. Needless to say we were wrong we immediately took her to the vet and she was pregnant. Our vet which thought about the dog's safety not money potential told us our options. We spayed her and yes it costed a little more money than a normal spay but we were not going to risk her health over a higher vet bill not to mention she was under a year old. Our policy has been every since this experience to spay/neuter. If the spay is an option as to she is not to far along I think you should think about your female shepherd's health first. Plus your dogs are not old enough for you to know what health problems or temperment issues they are passing along to those puppies. Please just really think this over.


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## Lucy Dog

selzer said:


> Think quick. Time is running out. Either you subject your puppy to whelping and raising a litter, or get her spayed. It is your decision.


How much longer does she have to make this decision? I think she mentioned she was about 3.5 weeks along now and that was a few days ago. 

Assuming she's 4 weeks now, how much more time does she have until there's no turning back?


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## JakodaCD OA

this is sad Vet's aren't gods that can predict the future. 

With a 10month old female, I would do the abort unless it was at the point I couldn't.
She is a 'baby' having 'babies'. You know nothing about the real health of your female , no xrays, no health testing. I wouldn't risk losing my 10 month old because of a mistake.


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## Gabbi510

JakodaCD OA said:


> this is sad Vet's aren't gods that can predict the future.
> 
> With a 10month old female, I would do the abort unless it was at the point I couldn't.
> She is a 'baby' having 'babies'. You know nothing about the real health of your female , no xrays, no health testing. I wouldn't risk losing my 10 month old because of a mistake.


Very true


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## vat

Most breeders I know that breed GSD will wait until a female is at LEAST 2 years of age. I had a litter of oops pups once and while my dog was older she had some minor complications and we lost one out of 7 pups. It is not fun having a litter of pups around unless you have planned for it. It is expensive messy and time consuming.

Vets are not gods and they do not have a crystal ball. Some are just money mongers! You must do what you think you can handle but I strongly urge you to heed the advice of the breeders on this site.


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## selzer

How much time do they have? I would abort NOW. The puppies grow the most in the last three weeks. But every day they are growing some. 

The heat cycle probably continued for a week to week and a half after the tie, so if there was no pregnancy, than she would have been out of heat for about two weeks. 

Are there any vet techs on board, when do vets normally want to do spays if the owners allow them to go through one heat cycle? Do they wait a month for everything to get back to normal, two weeks? I do not know. 

But I certainly would not want the pregnancy to go for very much longer before the spay. Spaying her now PROBABLY has no more risk than an ordinary spay. If you wait though, until those puppies and placentas have grown in size, she will have a lot more bleeders to tie off, and will need to be under anesthetic for much longer. 

I hate pressuring people to spay and usually never recommend it, but in this case, if a spay is the choice, then it should be done in the next couple of days in my opinion.


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## Gabbi510

Laydi gave birth to 6 beautiful healthy puppies! My bf an I were with her through the whole process.. She did it all perfect I just had to help her with #3 he got stuck and the sack broke but I did A LOT of reading on birthing situations so I gently pulled out curving and out came baby #3  brings tears to my eyes... She's such an awesome protective mother! Feeds them keeps them warm no matter where there at... Thank you for the support of a few of u and to the rest of negative comments I'm actually glad for them because I did a lot of research n reading becuz of this... Thank u all for Ur concernand I am very very happy with the result


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## lizzyjo

a friend of my daughters had a young bitch gsd. she got preg. had six puppies, because of her youth got confused ( we believe) at their yelping and ate 5. they saved one and bottle fed her. she turned out to be a maniac. so people, dog aggressive that no one could go near her. they offered to send her to a trainer, he refused her saying she was too much liability. she was put to sleep.....


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## LisaT

Gabbi510 said:


> .. Thank you for the support of a few of u and to the rest of negative comments *I'm actually glad for them because I did a lot of research n reading becuz of this*...


Kudos to you for taking those comments and using them to make this a better situation.


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## onyx'girl

Glad you pupdated this thread Gabbi, now you have to prepare for the next 8 weeks and placing the pups in forever homes. Hopefully there is a rescue you can contact that will help with this. I'm glad your female had no problems whelping and they are all doing well. I wish you luck and much patience for the next couple of months.


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## Lucy Dog

Have you found homes for all of the puppies yet?


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## SARAHSMITH

Was reading this post just hoping to hear a good outcome. Great to hear all went well! Never had to try to place puppies, but I would think if you give away a pure breed German Shepherd puppies you could find good homes.


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## trudy

congrats, glad you read as much as possible, now keep reading and watching and weigh the pups if you can. I am not a breeder, but have had a few litters, My oops litter, long ago, female bought from breeder as adult and told she was sterile, all vets said sterile, she had been bred only by AI, my male got her in passing, her coming into the house him going out, tie was instant, so yep they can happen that quick, that girl had 7 pups, she was 3.5 yrs old. Purebred, both parents CH and CD's and all health testing done

But my last litter, mom ate a pup the first night, then mom got infection, she had pyometra, and had to be spayed to clear it, she died on the table, pups were 3 weeks old. This is why I won't breed, I've had 3 breedings, these are #2 and #3. 

The last one was 25 years ago, too much heart ache for me, I don't mind the physical cleaning, or socializing its the heart break of selling, sometimes to not good homes, needing to rescue your own 1/2 grown pups when someone doesn't do right by them, having to retrain a mistreated one, having to hear one died on the road. Now I will happily spend my $$ buying from a great breeder that has done health checks/training/showing/ etc, and the beginning socializing/training has been started and the heart break isn't mine, I can give the dog the home and let someone else take the risks.

Best of luck and I hope you find great homes and remember don't let an accident happen next heat, she should have a break and have time to grow and learn to be a pup again and her obedience.

Also I am glad nothing bad happened a friend who is a breeder got a pup back, they didn't tell her she was bred, so at 10 months when she went into labor and things didn't proceed, into the e-vet and she was manipulated by the vet and he pulled each pup out, hours later mom would still not help out so now hand rearing 5 pups. Too sad,,,,


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## onyx'girl

_



Was reading this post just hoping to hear a good outcome. Great to hear all went well! Never had to try to place puppies, but I would think if you give away a pure breed German Shepherd puppies you could find good homes.

Click to expand...

giving away pure breed German Shepherd puppies_ is a bad idea....what will the new owners do with them, use them for guard dogs, breed them, dump them at the shelter when the cute puppy stage wears off? Will they know how to deal with all the things we see here daily on the puppy threads. I'd rather see them go to rescue where they can be carefully placed after screening potential owners than just giving them away or having them posted on Kiji or CL for a small "re-homing fee".


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## middleofnowhere

Six or was it seven more pups added to the population. Why do I not see the "happy" in this?


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## Larien

middleofnowhere said:


> Six or was it seven more pups added to the population. Why do I not see the "happy" in this?


Agreed.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Why are ya'll being so negative? An accident happened, one that the OP will clearly not make again. What do you want her to do...Kill the puppies? 

They are HERE, they are ALIVE, and the OP OBVIOUSLY needs some help.

So instead of making negative comments, either help or SHUT UP!

There seems to be a group of GSD SNOBS on this website that constantly put down others with less knowledge than them. Instead of making snide comments, use your knowledge to help someone else.

If someone is posting "I am about to breed my GSD because I love puppies and I want her to have them because they will look like her" REPLY by saying that isn't a good idea and post facts to inform them of the idiocy of their decision.

However, when someone posts that their dog accidently got pregnant and they don't want to KILL the puppies, then provide them with information on how to prepare for the pregnancy and for after.

!!!!!! Is anyone else annoyed by all this negativeness? Someone is always picking out a sentence of three paragraphs and making a fight about it. Just like with the recent post about a bad visit at petsmart were the OP called someone at the store a douche. Really? Stop being negative and help people!!!


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## Myamom

AND...a rescue is going to committ to them for life...meaning...if EVER during the lifespan of the dog...the adopter cannot keep...the rescue will take the dog back. This is what good rescues and breeders do. I hope you send them to rescue so that they never ever end up being passed around or in a shelter...they will have that rescue standing behind them.


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## CassandGunnar

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Why are ya'll being so negative? An accident happened, one that the OP will clearly not make again. What do you want her to do...Kill the puppies?
> 
> They are HERE, they are ALIVE, and the OP OBVIOUSLY needs some help.
> 
> So instead of making negative comments, either help or SHUT UP!
> 
> There seems to be a group of GSD SNOBS on this website that constantly put down others with less knowledge than them. Instead of making snide comments, use your knowledge to help someone else.
> 
> If someone is posting "I am about to breed my GSD because I love puppies and I want her to have them because they will look like her" REPLY by saying that isn't a good idea and post facts to inform them of the idiocy of their decision.
> 
> However, when someone posts that their dog accidently got pregnant and they don't want to KILL the puppies, then provide them with information on how to prepare for the pregnancy and for after.
> 
> !!!!!! Is anyone else annoyed by all this negativeness? Someone is always picking out a sentence of three paragraphs and making a fight about it. Just like with the recent post about a bad visit at petsmart were the OP called someone at the store a douche. Really? Stop being negative and help people!!!


Agreed! 
I'm a recent member and I get people having strong opinions on some of these topics, but if someone comes to you asking for help, please help them. 
If people think they'll get torn apart for asking, they'll stop asking and who knows how much worse problems will get.


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## KZoppa

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Why are ya'll being so negative? An accident happened, one that the OP will clearly not make again. What do you want her to do...Kill the puppies?
> 
> They are HERE, they are ALIVE, and the OP OBVIOUSLY needs some help.
> 
> So instead of making negative comments, either help or SHUT UP!
> 
> There seems to be a group of GSD SNOBS on this website that constantly put down others with less knowledge than them. Instead of making snide comments, use your knowledge to help someone else.
> 
> If someone is posting "I am about to breed my GSD because I love puppies and I want her to have them because they will look like her" REPLY by saying that isn't a good idea and post facts to inform them of the idiocy of their decision.
> 
> However, when someone posts that their dog accidently got pregnant and they don't want to KILL the puppies, then provide them with information on how to prepare for the pregnancy and for after.
> 
> !!!!!! Is anyone else annoyed by all this negativeness? Someone is always picking out a sentence of three paragraphs and making a fight about it. Just like with the recent post about a bad visit at petsmart were the OP called someone at the store a douche. Really? Stop being negative and help people!!!


*well said and definitely agreed. *



CassandGunnar said:


> Agreed!
> I'm a recent member and I get people having strong opinions on some of these topics, but if someone comes to you asking for help, please help them.
> *If people think they'll get torn apart for asking, they'll stop asking and who knows how much worse problems will get*.


 
*exactly. big very true exactly. *


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## onyx'girl

My post was not judging or condemning/ nor were any on the previous page after the update... these pups safely placed is the most important thing and hopefully there is not another oops litter in the future. 
I don't think there were that many harsh posts thruout this thread, most are all about the puppies and their safety, plain and simple. The ones that judge and condemn shouldn't be blanketed with this whole community. GSD snobs?

By the way, Kzoppa, you just agreed to his last sentence, weren't you the one calling someone a douche on your pet smart thread? LOL!!!!


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## ZebsMommy

Hope you find good homes for all of them!


----------



## lizzyjo

I am not sure we deserved that comment ...Personally iif you only want congratulations on having puppies...then you went about it wrong. My comment was to inform her that if not careful...the young mother will could her puppiies.....


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## Jessiewessie99

I hope all the puppies end up going to good homes. I also agree trying to get a rescue to help you place the puppies.

And to label us all GSD Snobs is just rude.


----------



## KZoppa

onyx'girl said:


> My post was not judging or condemning/ nor were any on the previous page after the update... these pups safely placed is the most important thing and hopefully there is not another oops litter in the future.
> I don't think there were that many harsh posts thruout this thread, most are all about the puppies and their safety, plain and simple. The ones that judge and condemn shouldn't be blanketed with this whole community. GSD snobs?
> 
> By the way, Kzoppa, you just agreed to his last sentence, weren't you the one calling someone a douche on your pet smart thread? LOL!!!!


 
i was agreeing with the last sentence simply because its true. If people come on asking for help and continually get nothing but snapped at, they will leave and who knows what would happen. HOWEVER, there are some people on this board who seem to target people regardless of whether the post is positive or not in what can only be described as doing it to start controversy. If someone doesnt train their dog to a certain standard people will find a way to snap about that. Some people fail to read the entire thread and just pick and choose or read between the lines. And yes i was referring to someone else as a douche at petsmart in my thread. I agree there are some on this forum who DO act like they're better than others who have less knowledge of the breed hence the GSD Snobs comment made by others.


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## SARAHSMITH

When I was a kid we got our dog for free. We treated our dog wonderfully. My parents would not have paid for a dog, but did happily spend money on vet bills and such. Just because someone is not willing to spend $1500 on a puppy does not mean they will not be good "parents". When we bought our dog, the breeder turned someone down who was willing to spend the money but seemed mentally unstable. Any person with a heart of course researches the people taking the dog.


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## Jessiewessie99

SARAHSMITH said:


> When I was a kid we got our dog for free. We treated our dog wonderfully. My parents would not have paid for a dog, but did happily spend money on vet bills and such. Just because someone is not willing to spend $1500 on a puppy does not mean they will not be good "parents". When we bought our dog, the breeder turned someone down who was willing to spend the money but seemed mentally unstable. Any person with a heart of course researches the people taking the dog.


No one said that people who won't spend $1500 on a puppy are bad parents. Someone can be a multi-millionaire and be a horrible pet owner.


When giving away puppies you don't give them to just anyone. You screen potential puppy owners and see who would be a good fit.


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## onyx'girl

People can spin why they want a pup, and how they'll take care of a pup any way they think the "breeder" wants to hear it. A contract with a rescue along with proper channels of screening potential owners will be much better in placing purebred GSD pups than offering them for free on CL...times have changed since you were a kid, and flippers or bunchers are all about picking up dogs for free and reselling...over and over and over. I see it in my local CL. There are always posters warning of so and so or this person just got my dog, said they'd give it a loving home and now it is listed again! Sad but true.


----------



## selzer

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Why are ya'll being so negative? An accident happened, one that the OP will clearly not make again. What do you want her to do...Kill the puppies?
> 
> They are HERE, they are ALIVE, and the OP OBVIOUSLY needs some help.
> 
> So instead of making negative comments, either help or SHUT UP!
> 
> There seems to be a group of GSD SNOBS on this website that constantly put down others with less knowledge than them. Instead of making snide comments, use your knowledge to help someone else.
> 
> If someone is posting "I am about to breed my GSD because I love puppies and I want her to have them because they will look like her" REPLY by saying that isn't a good idea and post facts to inform them of the idiocy of their decision.
> 
> However, when someone posts that their dog accidently got pregnant and they don't want to KILL the puppies, then provide them with information on how to prepare for the pregnancy and for after.
> 
> !!!!!! Is anyone else annoyed by all this negativeness? Someone is always picking out a sentence of three paragraphs and making a fight about it. Just like with the recent post about a bad visit at petsmart were the OP called someone at the store a douche. Really? Stop being negative and help people!!!


I really love how negative, judgemental, and condemning someone with 31 posts can be to people who are dedicated to helping dogs that are left homeless, and often messed up by people who thought it would be great to have a litter of puppies and "accidently" on purpose let them get together.

And when this person comes back to show us how her puppy had her puppies and did just fine despite all of our warnings and cautions, there was actually, very little negaitivity. 

One person tells how a new young mother ate her puppies. Does the OP know she should not leave the new puppies alone with their mother until the umbilical cords fall off? Because it is certainly possible for this to happen. I have heard of it from several people who have seen it first hand. 

People are telling her to find good homes, start now, be responsible for the puppies for the rest of their lives -- that is NOT negativity, that is advice, good advice.

And a person on here that is very active on the rescue areas, says she does not see anything happy about the situation. Well, maybe if the poster who has been around long enough to post 31 times, would go back and read this persons posts and maybe the different dogs that she has helped or helped to find homes for, problems she has seen and dealt with, maybe you would understand why she sees nothing happy in the situation.

Frankly, I think if the op needs help with the litter, they should continue to post and ask questions. But they should not expect congratulations. I have two ten month old pups and a pup who is 18 months old, I cannot imagine any of them whelping a litter at this point. They are babies, and knowing what a dam has to do, I know a lot of puppies are not able to adjust to motherhood. 

I guess I am a little "annoyed" at newbies, not bothering to get to know some of the people that have been on the site for a long time and actually walk their talk, being so very quick to pound on them for making a comment.

Why is it not ok for someone to say that there is little to be happy about, but it is ok for another person to say, you bunch of GSD SNOBS, etc, etc, etc.

Methinks people in glass houses should not throw stones.


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## selzer

SARAHSMITH said:


> When I was a kid we got our dog for free. We treated our dog wonderfully. My parents would not have paid for a dog, but did happily spend money on vet bills and such. Just because someone is not willing to spend $1500 on a puppy does not mean they will not be good "parents". When we bought our dog, the breeder turned someone down who was willing to spend the money but seemed mentally unstable. Any person with a heart of course researches the people taking the dog.


Giving away puppies is simply not a good idea. If people have the money to buy a quality dog, they will probably go ahead and provide it good food, training, and vet care. Probably. You still have to talk to the person and make a judgement call on them. But if they can afford the dog, they will also probably be able to afford a vet bill or a special dog food if it is necessary.

People who find the cost of a dog harder to come by, can still make great homes. They can start by sacrificing unnecessary expenses to save up to purchase a puppy. If they have a hard time coming up with the purchase price, they may also have a hard time coming up with money for the vet, or for training. If they make the effort and save, they have their priorities in the right place, and they will also have their priorities in the right place when the pup needs something. Probably. 

Potential puppy owners are a crap shoot. Some people will come out and say in plain English what horrible things they have done to other dogs or intend to do with this one. Others will have learned by being rejected by other breeders what to and what not to say. 

A person going around picking up pups to sell to medical research facilities are probably excellent salesmen and could probably pass the best of our screenings. 

Free puppies are not a good idea. But I do not know how much you can ask for. Probably not 1k or more. I think you have very little to offer to buyers, being this is your first litter, no health screenings, no titles, etc. So, you will probably have to have good long conversations with people and get a feel for them and hope for the best. 

At any rate do not advertise the puppies as free.


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## DharmasMom

First of all, congratulations on the safe delivery on your girl's pups and I am glad she is being a good mother. I sincerely hope you can find good homes for all of them. I agree with the people that say involve a rescue to help you.







middleofnowhere said:


> Six or was it seven more pups added to the population. Why do I not see the "happy" in this?


Second, this comment is just rude. People come here for help. Gabbi initially came here for help with her situation. Many people, instead of trying to help her told her to abort the puppies and move on. That was not a choice she was comfortable with. Once people were aware of that the should have either left the thread or gave her the best advice possible. 

Her dog safely delivered the puppies and is taking care of them like a good mother should. So you arrive in here with your negative comment when you should have just kept your "mouth" shut and backed out of this thread. The pups are already here, they were safely delivered and mom and pups are doing well. It was nice of Gabbi to update us. What would you have her do? Put the pups in a canvas sack ans toss them in a river? We want Gabbi to come back here to ask questions that she has during this time and to feel comfortable asking for any advise she may feel she needs. Your sanctimonious comment could prevent her from doing that. Like Thumper said "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".


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## SARAHSMITH

Ok, let me defend myself once more. I was talking about a word of mouth type of situation. Example: I am a friend of the puppy owners and I know someone who is a great person who would take a puppy. I know 2 people right now that have owned dogs before (in fact one I know had a German Shepherd) and would probably take a pure breed German Shepherd if it was free. 
I am certainly not talking about placing the puppies in a box in front of a pet store with a For Free sign. Please, give me more credit than that!
I don't get the impression that this owner would do that either. She made a mistake and was obviously very distraught over it and spent the effort finding this forum for advice.


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## selzer

See, someone who only wants a GSD if it is FREE, well that is someone who simply does not need a GSD. To me that is the attitude of someone who wants something for nothing. GSDs are not cheap, even if they do not cost anything initially. They need training, they often have health concerns. Would this person say, I would take it to the vet if it was a free clinic. Or I would take it to classes if they were free. 

People who want a free dog, should go to a shelter and get a mutt, or a purebred dog. They should stop a free puppies sign and take one home.


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## Zoeys mom

In the defense of free dogs my Zoe was free. Sure I would have paid for her, but she was a Christmas present for me last year. She is vetted, went to OB classes, eats grain free food, is walked 3 times a day, is trained daily, and has a wonderful home. Now people who only want free dogs....well that would worry me,lol but not every free home is a bad home


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## selzer

To the OP,

Get a kitchen scale and weigh the puppies twice a day. keep them warm. Monitor weight. If they lose weight two days in a row, you might need to supplement. Should not have to, but you never know. 

If you think you need to supplement, your vet can provide you with the necessary tube feeding stuff and show you how. It is not as difficult as it sounds. 

I truly hope that your puppies do not need any extra help, and that the mom cares for them and does a great job. GSDs are generally great with puppies. 

Keep them warm. 

Stay with them for the first several days anyway. 

Good luck.


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## Stevenzachsmom

Debbi, Please don't tell people to "Shut up" for posting an opinion. middleofnowhere is just as entitled to her opinion as you are to yours. Besides, I happen to agree with her.


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## DharmasMom

Stevenzachsmom said:


> Debbi, Please don't tell people to "Shut up" for posting an opinion. middleofnowhere is just as entitled to her opinion as you are to yours. Besides, I happen to agree with her.



I did not tell her to "shut up". Those were not my words. Yes she is entitled to her opinion. But that comment was extremely rude. The Op is obviously excited that her dog safely delivered and that she is being a good mom. She is researching what she can do to help. That comment was nothing but a sanctimonious attitude coming through. Yes, the OP made a mistake. She acknowledged that pages ago. 

And you may agree with her but you had the decency not to post a comment like that.


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## GSDElsa

DharmasMom said:


> Many people, instead of trying to help her told her to abort the puppies and move on. That was not a choice she was comfortable with.


What are you even talking about? The OP was the one who originally brought up aborting the puppies in her FIRST POST (know what "emergency fix" means?)."

So the people telling her to abort the puppies were simply agreeing with her initial gut instinct of doing so and expressing why it was a good idea.

Don't lecture people about "instead of trying to help her." They were answering her question and the entire point of the reason she started the thread.

And to the person saying give the dogs away for free...experience from many, many people have shown it's never a good idea to do so. Even a $100 price tag will bring another caliber of people to your door than the big ol' FREE TO "GOOD" HOME.

I, for one, will offer congrats in 14 years when I've heard all the puppies have lived long, wonderful lives with the families they originally went to.

I am, however, glad that since the OP was insistent on having the litter that she educated herself somewhat so she didn't lose a baby and/or mother during the process.

But only one of many, many hurdles has been met.


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## Zoeys mom

I'm glad the mom and puppies are well right now as well you are extremely lucky. I hope mom has seen a vet to check for retained placenta's since pieces can be missed easily. Check mom's temperature as well since infection isn't rare after delivery it does happen. I hope you find amazing homes and enjoy this experience I know it's a ton of work


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## x0emiroxy0x

*"I really love how negative, judgemental, and condemning someone with 31 posts can be to people who are dedicated to helping dogs that are left homeless"*

1. Why does the amount of posts I have made matter?
2. How am I being negative by saying that people are being negative?
3. The OP's dogs are NOT homeless, and she has no intention of them being like that, obviously.



*"And when this person comes back to show us how her puppy had her puppies and did just fine despite all of our warnings and cautions, there was actually, very little negaitivity. "*

**** her! She let her dog have puppies despite YOUR warnings and cautions? I mean, hey, everyone should do exactly what you say and they should be LUCKY if you aren't mean when she doesn't follow your advice! I mean, you must have a THOUSAND posts...which makes you God!

*"One person tells how a new young mother ate her puppies. Does the OP know she should not leave the new puppies alone with their mother until the umbilical cords fall off?"
"People are telling her to find good homes, start now, be responsible for the puppies for the rest of their lives -- that is NOT negativity, that is advice, good advice."
* 
THESE are not the posts I was talking about, obviously. I was speaking of the people who wrote "six, no seven more puppies in the world". Please read what I write before you comment on it. 


*"And a person on here that is very active on the rescue areas, says she does not see anything happy about the situation. Well, maybe if the poster who has been around long enough to post 31 times, would go back and read this persons posts and maybe the different dogs that she has helped or helped to find homes for, problems she has seen and dealt with, maybe you would understand why she sees nothing happy in the situation."*

Good for her for saving dogs! What she said was RUDE. Her saving dogs has nothing to do with being rude...she could have left advice about how to find good homes instead of meaningless rudeness! I don't care if she doesn't see anything happy...if she doesn't have advice then she should keep her ideas to herself! (I have NO problem with the person who wrote that, I just wanted to let you know how you were coming off)

*"Frankly, I think if the op needs help with the litter, they should continue to post and ask questions. But they should not expect congratulations."*

Did the OP EVER ask for congratulations? Nope. 

*"I guess I am a little "annoyed" at newbies, not bothering to get to know some of the people that have been on the site for a long time and actually walk their talk, being so very quick to pound on them for making a comment."*

You can be as annoyed as you want...but you will NEVER help ANYONE if you treat "newbies" differently than people who have been here a long time. THEY should be treated the most kind because they don't know what they are doing, AKA the OP, instead of attacked. What if the rudeness of others made her NEVER come back to this forum and then she lost access to valuable information on how to help her litter? 

And why would I want to get to know someone who constantly attacked others?

*"Why is it not ok for someone to say that there is little to be happy about, but it is ok for another person to say, you bunch of GSD SNOBS, etc, etc, etc."*

Because the person who posted the rude comment did it without aggravation. They must have been bored, or trying to increase their post number!! I mean come on, if they only had 31 posts they would be a total NEWBIE and not worth ANYTHING!!!

*"Methinks people in glass houses should not throw stones."*

I think you should stick to giving advice about german shepherds and stop hating on new people.



******I propose that from now people keep negative comments to themselves. If you are giving advice or warning, go ahead. But being negative just for the sake of it?

EXAMPLE:
You are walking through the grocery store and see a mother filling a shopping cart full of sugary crap for her OBESE 8 year old son that is beside her. What do you do?

A. Keep walking and think in your head what a terrible mother she is.
B. Walk up to her and say "Wow, great, another fat kid in the world."
C. You can say "Hey, did you see these new sugarfree snacks? My kid LOVES them!" 

Right now, tons of people are choosing choice B....it should be A or C.

I apologize if my comment about GSD snobs comments offended anyone. I was not speaking about the people in this particular thread, as you would know if you read my post. I was not going NEWBIE VS OLDIE either. I was just pointing out that many people are acting like they are better than others and that is ridiculous.


I LOVE germanshepherds.com and I have been going to it for the past YEAR, lurking before my puppy came! A person should not be valued on their post number. It is very silly and immature. 

Thank you for being POSITIVE in the previous post and offering advice!!! This is exactly what I was trying to get you to do!! See, my post worked


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## onyx'girl

xO, you changed the tone of the thread with your post. I really don't think that one persons posting what they did about 6 or 7 pups should have brought on such a backlash. 
So now this thread has taken a turn that we always see on the PDB...
How about everyone get back to the reason for this thread and help the OP with her new litter on the ground, so they can be raised properly and homed safely and responsibly.


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## KaiserGSDLove

You are very lucky it turned out the way it did. Hopefully you spay her now so this wont happen again.


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## RubyTuesday

It's unfair to say that xO 'changed the tone of this thread'. The thread was already rife with various tones. All that s/he did was point out the negativity of some of them. For many posters, especially newbies, the sarcastic, belittling put downs so common within some topics are intimidating to the point the posters either leave or simply avoid certain forums. Either situation is counter productive & a damned shame.

IMO, the most valuable advice was _consult your vet_. The unbiased info I've read generally states the safest course for an impregnated bitch is to continue the pregnancy, ie the delivery poses less risk to the bitch than an abortion. Is that true??? I dunno, but the advice of a trusted vet is preferable to that of board members whose advice can be heavily biased & poorly informed. 

IF it was me, I'd opt for early termination, unless the risks to the bitch were extreme. However, all other considerations aside, the idea of placing pups makes me want to slash both wrists. It's among the biggest reason I'd NEVER want to breed, so my opinion might well vary from another's.

I hope the OP considers working with a reputable rescue to place the pups. A rescue that will take back the dog throughout its lifetime if things don't work out. IF the OP isn't willing (or able) to work with a reputable rescue, I hope that she gets help in determining reasonable prices for the pups & makes a lifetime commitment to them so that if (when) individual homes don't work out she accepts the return of the dog/bitch she unwittingly bred. All pups s/b speutered or placed in homes that absolutely won't breed.

Note, in my area all pups up to ~1yr old are placed. This situation isn't unique as shelters/rescues from some areas actually import pups b/c they can't meet the local demand for puppies. In areas such as mine, the problem clearly isn't the production of too many puppies. It's a lack of commitment on the owners' part. Everyone says _'til death do us part'_ but how many really, truly mean it? Until/unless people say that AND meant it, the heartbreak of rescue will continue.


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## DharmasMom

GSDElsa said:


> What are you even talking about? The OP was the one who originally brought up aborting the puppies in her FIRST POST (know what "emergency fix" means?)."
> 
> So the people telling her to abort the puppies were simply agreeing with her initial gut instinct of doing so and expressing why it was a good idea.


I know the OP was the one who first mentioned it. But if she was completely comfortable with the idea then she would have run out and done the emergency spay right away. She came here for advice and, IMO, was bludgeoned over the head with the fact that she should take her dog and get it done. Ni ifs, ands, or buts about it. 


Looking back, you were one of the ones most frustrated with the situation and pushing hard for the spay. You even had a comment, "Just arrgh" at the end of one of your posts. I just don't think this attitude is helpful to someone who comes here, worried about their dog, and looking for help. Personal feelings should be kept out of it as much as possible and facts should be given. Browbeating someone only chases them off then they don't get the help they need and neither do the dogs. Which in the end we are here for.


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## DharmasMom

Oh and personally, I would like to see pics when you get the chance to post them!!


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## Good_Karma

Is there a duck and cover smilie?

Glad to hear the pregnancy did not end with all the pups and mom dead, because it could have. Glad to hear that the OP is still a member and has many people who can give her advice. Hope that the best of outcomes happens, like Justine said, with each dog going to its forever home and leading long, happy (speutered) lives. I also hope I win the lottery.


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## GSDElsa

DharmasMom said:


> I know the OP was the one who first mentioned it. But if she was completely comfortable with the idea then she would have run out and done the emergency spay right away. She came here for advice and, IMO, was bludgeoned over the head with the fact that she should take her dog and get it done. Ni ifs, ands, or buts about it.
> 
> 
> Looking back, you were one of the ones most frustrated with the situation and pushing hard for the spay. You even had a comment, "Just arrgh" at the end of one of your posts. I just don't think this attitude is helpful to someone who comes here, worried about their dog, and looking for help. Personal feelings should be kept out of it as much as possible and facts should be given. Browbeating someone only chases them off then they don't get the help they need and neither do the dogs. Which in the end we are here for.


So, in other words...only give "advice" that the OP wants to hear, right?

Pointing out all the reasons she should do an emergency spay and all the things that could easily go wrong is just too much "reality", eh?


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## vat

Glad to hear everything went well. I strongly agree if you can get a rescue to help you find homes you should do so. They will be able to do better screening and also have that contract for spueter and returning the pup if need be. They probably already have a waiting list for puppies.

When I had my oops litter many long years ago I did sell my pups even tho they were mixed (mom was purebred). Later I found out that one was killed on the road and this was a person my hubby knew. Some people think because they live in the country that dogs should run free. I was heartbroken! We did not have any rescues back then, I wish we did.

Post pictures!


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## Betty

kinda ironic that the posts calling out people for "rudeness" are sometimes more rude then the original post.....

My experience has been that if you want you can change the tone of a thread just by the way you post your own response. Usually no reason to call out other people for their response.

Ask for opinions/advice you just may not hear what you want to hear the way you want to hear it.


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## GSDElsa

vat said:


> Glad to hear everything went well. I strongly agree if you can get a rescue to help you find homes you should do so. They will be able to do better screening and also have that contract for spueter and returning the pup if need be. They probably already have a waiting list for puppies.


This can't be repeated enough. Unless you have the financial means and space to plan on taking each and everyone one of those puppies back at some point during their lives, turn them over to a reputable rescue in your area to place. They have the experience, the contract, and the ability to support the puppy for its whole life. 

If you feel you must insist on placing them yourself, make sure you contact lots of reputable rescues to see if they will help you write up a contract and give you pointers on placing them. You need to do homechecks on all. Come up with lists of questions about the living situation the puppy will be in--including things like being tied out, heartworm preventative, how they plan on working the puppy, etc. Consider any animals already in the house. Make sure you call current and past vets.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

GSDElsa said:


> This can't be repeated enough. Unless you have the financial means and space to plan on taking each and everyone one of those puppies back at some point during their lives, turn them over to a reputable rescue in your area to place. They have the experience, the contract, and the ability to support the puppy for its whole life.
> 
> If you feel you must insist on placing them yourself, make sure you contact lots of reputable rescues to see if they will help you write up a contract and give you pointers on placing them. You need to do homechecks on all. Come up with lists of questions about the living situation the puppy will be in--including things like being tied out, heartworm preventative, how they plan on working the puppy, etc. Consider any animals already in the house. Make sure you call current and past vets.


This and the quote she quoted. 

You can foster them (don't have to physically turn them over - figure of speech - or maybe she did mean it - so we can clarify) and then these puppies will be given a great chance. Need to find a good rescue of course because there are who will just broker and say they are a rescue, but by doing this you can really make lemonade here.


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## GSDElsa

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> This and the quote she quoted.
> 
> You can foster them (don't have to physically turn them over - figure of speech - or maybe she did mean it - so we can clarify) and then these puppies will be given a great chance. Need to find a good rescue of course because there are who will just broker and say they are a rescue, but by doing this you can really make lemonade here.


No, you're right--I meant in the figurative sense...OP keeps them til 8 weeks, but then rescue finds the homes for them and takes "responsibility" for them.

I don't know where in CA OP is, but there are some good GSD rescues in your state.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Thanks - I thought so - but figured we had better clarify before people accused of us of sending in Rescue SWAT teams, covered in dog hair, to steal puppies!


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## DharmasMom

GSDElsa said:


> So, in other words...only give "advice" that the OP wants to hear, right?
> 
> Pointing out all the reasons she should do an emergency spay and all the things that could easily go wrong is just too much "reality", eh?



Any advice given, esp if an OP is doing something that a poster doesn't agree with, should be presented in a nice and polite manner. Even harsh realities can be presented in a way that is non-offensive to an OP. When someone browbeats or presents information in an angry, nasty manner then all you do is cause the original person to shut down. They are no longer interested in getting advice and as a result they will probably make a bad decision and the dog will suffer. 

I see that on here time and again. Someone asks what more experienced posters think is a stupid question and they jump all over them. The new person shuts down, leaves and we never know if the dog got help or not. At least this person came back to let us know that the dog safely delivered and that the puppies were healthy. Then she gets a comment like the one about 6 or 7 puppies. Not nice. Most people on here are trying to be very helpful this time around though and I am glad to see that. The goal is to find these puppies good and loving homes.


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## Betty

DharmasMom said:


> Any advice given, esp if an OP is doing something that a poster doesn't agree with, should be presented in a nice and polite manner. Even harsh realities can be presented in a way that is non-offensive to an OP. When someone browbeats or presents information in an angry, nasty manner then all you do is cause the original person to shut down. They are no longer interested in getting advice and as a result they will probably make a bad decision and the dog will suffer.
> 
> I see that on here time and again. Someone asks what more experienced posters think is a stupid question and they jump all over them. The new person shuts down, leaves and we never know if the dog got help or not. At least this person came back to let us know that the dog safely delivered and that the puppies were healthy. Then she gets a comment like the one about 6 or 7 puppies. Not nice. Most people on here are trying to be very helpful this time around though and I am glad to see that. The goal is to find these puppies good and loving homes.


Flip the coin. How about the experienced people shutting down and leaving because not only is their advice being ridiculed, people do not like the method that their advice, learned the hard way, most likely at a high financial and emotional expense is not being delivered?


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## DharmasMom

Why would someone leave because someone else didn't take their advice? I give friends or family medical advice all the time, if they choose not to take it, well, no skin off my nose. I certainly don't lose any sleep over it. If someone more experienced gives a new person advice and they choose not to take it, don't take it personally. Now if they ridicule someone over it, then they are just as bad as the person being nasty when giving the advice. But it is certainly not worth an experienced poster leaving over.

I am really not being sarcastic but I am curious. This seems like a WHOLE lot of investment for someone to put into a message board.


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## Myamom

I think the emotional toll is on the rescuers that day in and day out work to try to save animals from being killed in shelters...and cry over those that they can't save...and see no end in sight 

If you look in the urgent section...it's much more than a message board.


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## Betty

DharmasMom said:


> Why would someone leave because someone else didn't take their advice? I give friends or family medical advice all the time, if they choose not to take it, well, no skin off my nose. I certainly don't lose any sleep over it. If someone more experienced gives a new person advice and they choose not to take it, don't take it personally. Now if they ridicule someone over it, then they are just as bad as the person being nasty when giving the advice. But it is certainly not worth an experienced poster leaving over.
> 
> I am really not being sarcastic but I am curious. This seems like a WHOLE lot of investment for someone to put into a message board.


Probably didn't type clear, not leave because advice wasn't taken, but stop offering advice because of the criticism on the way the advice is worded. You know you are being mean, rude, whatever.


And probably leave too. Why give the benefit of your years of experience only to be told that you don't deliver it properly? i

But my point was that there was a flip side to the coin. Personally I think if everyone just pulled up their big girl or boy pants things would go smoother.


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## DharmasMom

Myamom said:


> I think the emotional toll is on the rescuers that day in and day out work to try to save animals from being killed in shelters...and cry over those that they can't save...and see no end in sight
> 
> If you look in the urgent section...it's much more than a message board.


I totally agree with this. I have one foster, drove almost 170 miles yesterday to do 1 leg of a transport to get another GSD to his foster home in Maryland and have told VGSR if they need me in the future I will be glad to do more.



Betty said:


> Probably didn't type clear, not leave because advice wasn't taken, but stop offering advice because of the criticism on the way the advice is worded. You know you are being mean, rude, whatever.
> 
> 
> And probably leave too. Why give the benefit of your years of experience only to be told that you don't deliver it properly? i
> 
> But my point was that there was a flip side to the coin.  Personally I think if everyone just pulled up their big girl or boy pants things would go smoother.



I couldn't agree more. But I do think that new people shouldn't immediately be jumped on either. There are a lot of people on this board with a lot to offer. AND a lot of differing opinions. I know that I have been greatly helped both by asking questions and by lurking. But I have also had to wade through different ideas and opinions to find what worked for me and my dogs. 

People who have been here awhile should be able to take the occasional and not so occasional snarky comment but new people who are worried, scared and just generally don't know about this wonderful breed that they have brought into their house should be handled a with a little bit more patience. And people should realize that their advice, while well meaning, may not always be taken, it doesn't mean it wasn't appreciated.


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## PupperLove

There is a difference between well meaning advice, and rudeness that comes from personal opinions. It's completley obvious to everyone in America that there is a pet over population problem. WE ALL KNOW. And to re-point that out in a sense to make the OP feel bad in some way, is just rediculous "oh 6 or 7 more puppies in this world," or whatever that was. It's just a re-stating the obvious and non-constructive. She knows she screwed up! Kudos to all of the excellent advice that HAS been posted in this thread, though. There is alot of good information, but comments like that? What is your point other than to make the OP feel bad? The litter has been born, it's done and over with.


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## Betty

Not a big deal but if you quote me I would prefer that you either do not change the font's/emphasis/color or if you do also note that the emphasis is yours not mine.



but back to the original poster. Properly placing pups is a challenge unlike anything else I have done. I look at it as I have one chance and one chance only to do it right and how well I do it will make all the difference in the world to that pup.

If you have not already spend some time on the rescue section and see the tragedy that can ensure when you do not do your job properly. 

For these reasons please follow the advice given and contact a local rescue for their assistance. Depending on the rescue they can do everything from educating you on the screening process to actually assisting you with it.

It can literally be life or death for these little ones.

And there are sometimes things out there that is worse then death.


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## DharmasMom

PupperLove said:


> There is a difference between well meaning advice, and rudeness that comes from personal opinions. It's completley obvious to everyone in America that there is a pet over population problem. WE ALL KNOW. And to re-point that out in a sense to make the OP feel bad in some way, is just rediculous "oh 6 or 7 more puppies in this world," or whatever that was. It's just a re-stating the obvious and non-constructive. She knows she screwed up! Kudos to all of the excellent advice that HAS been posted in this thread, though. There is alot of good information, but comments like that? What is your point other than to make the OP feel bad? The litter has been born, it's done and over with.



Thank you. My point exactly!


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

> There is a difference between well meaning advice, and rudeness that comes from personal opinions. It's completley obvious to everyone in America that there is a pet over population problem. WE ALL KNOW. And to re-point that out in a sense to make the OP feel bad in some way, is just rediculous "oh 6 or 7 more puppies in this world," or whatever that was. It's just a re-stating the obvious and non-constructive. She knows she screwed up! Kudos to all of the excellent advice that HAS been posted in this thread, though. There is alot of good information, but comments like that? What is your point other than to make the OP feel bad? The litter has been born, it's done and over with.


It's called social norming. And there are boards where things like that are "awww, look how cute" "what a great momma" "congrats" "I am sure you will find them great homes" are the norms. 

On this board that is typically not the case. There is a level of critical thinking, care and concern, and dogcentrism. When something does not follow those things sometimes the feedback is more critical - norming - conscious or not. 

People who are more logical and less swayed by emotions may be very comfortable giving and getting feedback that isn't all purtied up with happy faces, big hugs and you are an angel. People DO leave and sometimes that is a missed educational opportunity, so it is good to try to provide information well - in a way that people can accept it. However, because people have a choice, within the rules, to post what they think there may be some ouchies. 

If that's what you need (XOXO), than definitely it is hard to come on with something that you have done as a person and that you as a person need to take responsibility for and that you as a person need to try to develop a plan that helps the dogs you've done this to, because not everyone can focus in on that all the time, as a part of human nature.

And it's not done and over with because there are ways to make a bad situation better, as posted by vat and GSDElsa.


----------



## Betty

PupperLove said:


> There is a difference between well meaning advice, and rudeness that comes from personal opinions. It's completley obvious to everyone in America that there is a pet over population problem. WE ALL KNOW. And to re-point that out in a sense to make the OP feel bad in some way, is just rediculous "oh 6 or 7 more puppies in this world," or whatever that was. It's just a re-stating the obvious and non-constructive. She knows she screwed up! Kudos to all of the excellent advice that HAS been posted in this thread, though. There is alot of good information, but comments like that? What is your point other than to make the OP feel bad? The litter has been born, it's done and over with.


I agree with what you say, and contrary to popular belief I do try and temper my advice at time.

Perhaps because of tone of this thread though more people will not have a "whoops" litter by allowing two intact dogs, one that they know is in heat to feed together unsupervised.

I came close to having a whoops litter recently. One of my girls came into a silent heat and my boy spent a lot of time trying to dig through the concrete around her run. I could of buried a body in the hole he dog, literally.

They then had an acre or two separating them. And walls.:laugh:


----------



## PupperLove

No, it is typically not the case on this board. And people can post what they want. I see this board as a place to learn, get, and give advice to HELP people. Some posts are just completley the opposite and do nothing but possibly offend someone. And offending someone, especially in this situation and other situations alike, who involve people who are in a great need for help, isn't the best way to go about it IMO. 

No, the situation itself is not done and over with. But the fact that the puppies are here, is done and over with. There is ALOT that can be done to help these puppies, and I hope they can get all the help they need!

What I am getting at is that there seems to be some major confusion between heartfelt, compassionate advice and offensive comments. I just hope that some people can learn to understand the difference and the possible hurt (not referring emotionally, but towards actually helping the OP, and furthermore the dog(s)) that it can cause to a situation. I understand people are very passionate about GSDs and dogs in general, but coming about it in the wrong way can offer 0 help, and really get a situation no-where. Plus, why make someone feel bad when they are here, trying to get help, and do the right thing??


----------



## lizzyjo

As a newbie..I cant take credit for an informed answer to a lot of this banter. But I can say that the "nastiness, word slinging, and rudeness makes me not want to continue. I foound this forum looking for advice as I am gettiing (specifically ) a GSD puppy soon. I am wanting to hear the positive and negative. I think without the con portion you cannot make a informed decision on your training or whatever. If you dont want critism then dont openly throw a question out there. You have to have an open mind. I am 66 proud years old....DONT TELL ME TO SHUT UP...xo you are a trouble maker...enjoying what you have started. your comments have nothing to add to helping the op with her origional situation.


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## PupperLove

Betty said:


> I agree with what you say, and contrary to popular belief I do try and temper my advice at time.
> 
> Perhaps because of tone of this thread though more people will not have a "whoops" litter by allowing two intact dogs, one that they know is in heat to feed together unsupervised.
> 
> *I came close to having a whoops litter recently. One of my girls came into a silent heat and my boy spent a lot of time trying to dig through the concrete around her run. I could of buried a body in the hole he dog, literally.*
> 
> They then had an acre or two separating them. And walls.:laugh:


 
WOW!! That's absolutley crazy how they will try to get to eachother. And why to never leave them unattended, even for a split second! That really says what WILL happen if there are no barriers...as does the OP's story.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Since when did defending someone make a person a trouble maker. 

Why do people not understand what we are saying? Give criticism! But don't be rude about it.

I have done nothing but defend an innocent person who was attacked. Sorry but this isn't 1960... I can stand up to "my elders" and I will do so when they treat someone else so terribly.

Everyone stop attacking eachother and calling names and making assumptions ! 


Just be NICe! We aren't making you admit you were rude so just let it go and be nicer from now on


This site is to help out dogs not put eachother down...


----------



## lizzyjo

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Since when did defending someone make a person a trouble maker.
> 
> Why do people not understand what we are saying? Give criticism! But don't be rude about it.
> 
> I have done nothing but defend an innocent person who was attacked. Sorry but this isn't 1960... I can stand up to "my elders" and I will do so when they treat someone else so terribly.
> 
> Everyone stop attacking eachother and calling names and making assumptions !
> 
> 
> Just be NICe! We aren't making you admit you were rude so just let it go
> 
> and be nicer from now on
> 
> 
> This site is to help out dogs not put eachother down...


 
:crazy::crazy:YOu have to be kidding me. I dont know you and you dont know me...since when did it matter when you were born...standing up to your elders is not rude????.I am only putting my opionion out here with out being rude. I am not sure how old you are in years...but you seem really immature to me...I am through with your posts...


----------



## Cassidy's Mom

Betty said:


> Perhaps because of tone of this thread though more people will not have a "whoops" litter by allowing two intact dogs, one that they know is in heat to feed together unsupervised.


:thumbup: And also they'll know that if they do "screw up" and let their intact male near their female in heat there are options other than having those puppies, such as spay termination. That is, of course if they're truly sorry that it happened and were actually not serious about not breeding them. 

I think what frustrates many of us is how often that's not the case, that for all the "woe is me" hand-wringing over the fact that they're going to have an (allegedly) "oops" litter, they're secretly pleased. But since it was an "accident" they can pretend otherwise, and absolve themselves of any responsibility while having the puppies they wanted all along. Remember these comments?




Gabbi510 said:


> ...we wanted to have puppies but NOT like this...





Gabbi510 said:


> And my male is 1 1/2 yr he's very beautiful





Gabbi510 said:


> The vet said shes 80% grown and shell be fine....


And after the puppies were born:



Gabbi510 said:


> ...I am very very happy with the result


I think it's safe to say we're ALL happy that the mom and puppies are fine. But sorry, most of the rest of us aren't happy that another backyard breeder has been born. The OP was always going to be a backyard breeder, the only real concern was that her female _puppy_ was too young to have a litter at 10 months old. Puppies having puppies. Yay.


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## SARAHSMITH

When I get advice or opinions with a mean tone it has the opposite affect as the responder may have wished. I become defensive and want to walk away from the entire forum. There is constructive criticism and then there is belittling. I know I will make mistakes as we all do in life. Please understand that I am not perfect and tell me in a constructive way how to do things right. It may be frustrating to those with experience when we novice make a "stupid" mistake but I know that I am doing a lot of research to do the right things and hope that this forum will continue to help me as it already has so much in the short time that I've participated. I've learned to crate, not to use negative but instead positive reinforcement, the importance of both physical exercise and mental stimulation, and I could go on and on. Please help me continue to learn in a nice way.


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## x0emiroxy0x

lizzyjo said:


> :crazy::crazy:YOu have to be kidding me. I dont know you and you dont know me...since when did it matter when you were born...standing up to your elders is not rude????.I am only putting my opionion out here with out being rude. I am not sure how old you are in years...but you seem really immature to me...I am through with your posts...


I think I may have confused you... I was referring to the fact that earlier I was deemed a newbie because I had 31 posts. That comment was made because I was still mad about that post and was unneessecary. Please feel free to ignore me but if I see someone being outright rude (meaning they don't give advice, only snide comments) then I will call it out.

I am not checking this thread anymore because it has become A free for all fight. If anyone has a problem with me or a question please message me


----------



## Kris10

I think the rudest thing that happened in this thread was that it was totally hijacked by someone who was intentionally rude to a few people who were unintentionally rude stating their opinion to the OP.


----------



## arycrest

x0emiroxy0x said:


> ...
> So instead of making negative comments, either help or SHUT UP!
> 
> There seems to be a group of GSD SNOBS on this website that constantly put down others with less knowledge than them. Instead of making snide comments, use your knowledge to help someone else.
> 
> If someone is posting "I am about to breed my GSD because I love puppies and I want her to have them because they will look like her" REPLY by saying that isn't a good idea and post facts to inform them of the idiocy of their decision.
> 
> However, when someone posts that their dog accidently got pregnant and they don't want to KILL the puppies, then provide them with information on how to prepare for the pregnancy and for after.
> 
> !!!!!! Is anyone else annoyed by all this negativeness? Someone is always picking out a sentence of three paragraphs and making a fight about it. Just like with the recent post about a bad visit at petsmart were the OP called someone at the store a douche. Really? Stop being negative and help people!!!





x0emiroxy0x said:


> *"I really love how negative, judgemental, and condemning someone with 31 posts can be to people who are dedicated to helping dogs that are left homeless"*
> 
> 1. Why does the amount of posts I have made matter?
> 2. How am I being negative by saying that people are being negative?
> 3. The OP's dogs are NOT homeless, and she has no intention of them being like that, obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> *"And when this person comes back to show us how her puppy had her puppies and did just fine despite all of our warnings and cautions, there was actually, very little negaitivity. "*
> 
> **** her! She let her dog have puppies despite YOUR warnings and cautions? I mean, hey, everyone should do exactly what you say and they should be LUCKY if you aren't mean when she doesn't follow your advice! I mean, you must have a THOUSAND posts...which makes you God!
> 
> *"One person tells how a new young mother ate her puppies. Does the OP know she should not leave the new puppies alone with their mother until the umbilical cords fall off?"*
> *"People are telling her to find good homes, start now, be responsible for the puppies for the rest of their lives -- that is NOT negativity, that is advice, good advice."*
> 
> THESE are not the posts I was talking about, obviously. I was speaking of the people who wrote "six, no seven more puppies in the world". Please read what I write before you comment on it.
> 
> 
> *"And a person on here that is very active on the rescue areas, says she does not see anything happy about the situation. Well, maybe if the poster who has been around long enough to post 31 times, would go back and read this persons posts and maybe the different dogs that she has helped or helped to find homes for, problems she has seen and dealt with, maybe you would understand why she sees nothing happy in the situation."*
> 
> Good for her for saving dogs! What she said was RUDE. Her saving dogs has nothing to do with being rude...she could have left advice about how to find good homes instead of meaningless rudeness! I don't care if she doesn't see anything happy...if she doesn't have advice then she should keep her ideas to herself! (I have NO problem with the person who wrote that, I just wanted to let you know how you were coming off)
> 
> *"Frankly, I think if the op needs help with the litter, they should continue to post and ask questions. But they should not expect congratulations."*
> 
> Did the OP EVER ask for congratulations? Nope.
> 
> *"I guess I am a little "annoyed" at newbies, not bothering to get to know some of the people that have been on the site for a long time and actually walk their talk, being so very quick to pound on them for making a comment."*
> 
> You can be as annoyed as you want...but you will NEVER help ANYONE if you treat "newbies" differently than people who have been here a long time. THEY should be treated the most kind because they don't know what they are doing, AKA the OP, instead of attacked. What if the rudeness of others made her NEVER come back to this forum and then she lost access to valuable information on how to help her litter?
> 
> And why would I want to get to know someone who constantly attacked others?
> 
> *"Why is it not ok for someone to say that there is little to be happy about, but it is ok for another person to say, you bunch of GSD SNOBS, etc, etc, etc."*
> 
> Because the person who posted the rude comment did it without aggravation. They must have been bored, or trying to increase their post number!! I mean come on, if they only had 31 posts they would be a total NEWBIE and not worth ANYTHING!!!
> 
> *"Methinks people in glass houses should not throw stones."*
> 
> I think you should stick to giving advice about german shepherds and stop hating on new people.
> 
> 
> 
> ******I propose that from now people keep negative comments to themselves. If you are giving advice or warning, go ahead. But being negative just for the sake of it?
> 
> EXAMPLE:
> You are walking through the grocery store and see a mother filling a shopping cart full of sugary crap for her OBESE 8 year old son that is beside her. What do you do?
> 
> A. Keep walking and think in your head what a terrible mother she is.
> B. Walk up to her and say "Wow, great, another fat kid in the world."
> C. You can say "Hey, did you see these new sugarfree snacks? My kid LOVES them!"
> 
> Right now, tons of people are choosing choice B....it should be A or C.
> 
> I apologize if my comment about GSD snobs comments offended anyone. I was not speaking about the people in this particular thread, as you would know if you read my post. I was not going NEWBIE VS OLDIE either. I was just pointing out that many people are acting like they are better than others and that is ridiculous.
> 
> 
> I LOVE germanshepherds.com and I have been going to it for the past YEAR, lurking before my puppy came! A person should not be valued on their post number. It is very silly and immature.
> 
> Thank you for being POSITIVE in the previous post and offering advice!!! This is exactly what I was trying to get you to do!! See, my post worked





x0emiroxy0x said:


> Since when did defending someone make a person a trouble maker.
> 
> Why do people not understand what we are saying? Give criticism! But don't be rude about it.
> 
> I have done nothing but defend an innocent person who was attacked. Sorry but this isn't 1960... I can stand up to "my elders" and I will do so when they treat someone else so terribly.
> 
> Everyone stop attacking eachother and calling names and making assumptions !
> 
> 
> Just be NICe! We aren't making you admit you were rude so just let it go and be nicer from now on
> 
> 
> This site is to help out dogs not put eachother down...





x0emiroxy0x said:


> I think I may have confused you... I was referring to the fact that earlier I was deemed a newbie because I had 31 posts. That comment was made because I was still mad about that post and was unneessecary. Please feel free to ignore me but if I see someone being outright rude (meaning they don't give advice, only snide comments) then I will call it out.
> 
> I am not checking this thread anymore because it has become A free for all fight. If anyone has a problem with me or a question please message me


And what brought on this tirade of abusive comments? Someone giving their honest opinion that an unwanted litter is not a thing to celebrate!!! So what? You can disagree without tell her to "SHUT UP!" and proceed to spam the board with more abusive comments than she ever made. 

Good Lord, you're the most negative person posting on this thread ... GROW THE **** UP!!! You ARE A NEWBIE like it or not. Nothing wrong with being a newbie, we all were at one time or another. You have not made one positive contribution to this entire thread other than be negative, rude, and snide. Why don't you follow your own bloody advice and stop throwing stones?


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

If you have a problem with me please message me instead of further cluttering this board with fighting. Directly quoting me sure did waste a lot of board space.

Ps... Your forgot all of the posts in between those.


----------



## Gabbi510

DharmasMom said:


> Oh and personally, I would like to see pics when you get the chance to post them!!


<img src="http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b83/gabbi510/e5f31700.jpg">


----------



## Gabbi510




----------



## Betty

If you go to Walmart in the fitness equipment section you can find these rubbery type mats that go together to place on top of the wood. Very easy to clean and will give a nice cushion. for the pups. Their bones are still very soft and I am of the opinion that a lot of the joint problems, especially unilateral ones, can be traced back to birth or the whelping box.


----------



## Betty

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Since when did defending someone make a person a trouble maker.
> 
> Why do people not understand what we are saying? Give criticism! But don't be rude about it.
> 
> I have done nothing but defend an innocent person who was attacked. Sorry but this isn't 1960... I can stand up to "my elders" and I will do so when they treat someone else so terribly.
> 
> Everyone stop attacking eachother and calling names and making assumptions !
> 
> 
> Just be NICe! We aren't making you admit you were rude so just let it go and be nicer from now on
> 
> 
> This site is to help out dogs not put eachother down...



Just curious, do you have any advice to give the op on this thread or are you only on it to moderate the people that have replied and to chastise the posters that do not meet your standards of niceness?


----------



## Stevenzachsmom

Gabbi, Thank you for posting the pic. The Mom is adorable, as are the pups. It looks like she is being a good Mom. I am glad for that. Even so - she looks like a baby nursing babies and that still makes me sad.


----------



## onyx'girl

Are you keeping track of who's who? Recording weight loss/gain? I'm not a breeder, but having a space heater in the whelping box doesn't seem like a great idea...what if one or more of the pups snuggle up to it when mom is out taking a break, can they get burned by it? 
They can also get tangled in the blankets and suffocate. Can you hang a heat lamp over the box instead of using the heater?


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## lizzyjo

What betty said


----------



## KLCecil

onyx'girl said:


> Are you keeping track of who's who? Recording weight loss/gain? I'm not a breeder, but having a space heater in the whelping box doesn't seem like a great idea...what if one or more of the pups snuggle up to it when mom is out taking a break, can they get burned by it?
> They can also get tangled in the blankets and suffocate. Can you hang a heat lamp over the box instead of using the heater?


The safest way to keep the pups warm is to heat the room, putting a heat source in the box is very dangerous. 
This is an excellent guide for beginners, its even good for experienced breeders to use as a guild line;

Breeding, Whelping, and Rearing Puppies


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## arycrest

Cute pups, I wish you well with them and will keep my fingers crossed that each one goes to a fantastic, loving home! 

I agree that an extra heat source can be dangerous. A friend had a fire started by a heat lamp that was knocked over in the welping area. Fortunately no one was injured, mom and the pups were okay, and little actual damage was done, but stuff like that can happen.


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## onyx'girl

A responsible, reputable kennel near me was destroyed by fire in December ...they lost a female due to whelp and several dogs were injured. Devastating 

Fire destroys Alamo Township kennel | MLive.com


----------



## selzer

x0emiroxy0x said:


> Since when did defending someone make a person a trouble maker.
> 
> Why do people not understand what we are saying? Give criticism! But don't be rude about it.
> 
> I have done nothing but defend an innocent person who was attacked. Sorry but this isn't 1960... I can stand up to "my elders" and I will do so when they treat someone else so terribly.
> 
> Everyone stop attacking eachother and calling names and making assumptions !
> 
> 
> *Just be NICe! We aren't making you admit you were rude so just let it go and be nicer from now on*
> 
> 
> This site is to help out dogs not put eachother down...


And start with yourself. 

You cannot MAKE me be nice.

You can only BE NICE.

It is kind of the little sign that says, "the beatings will continue until morale improves!"

If you want everyone to be nice, be nice yourself.


----------



## KLCecil

Ryder&SophieSue said:


> my mother did great, i did not have to supplement at all she was a fantastic mother...
> I understand that breed wise they are totally different breeds, and maturity levels are different...But i go back to b4 these animals were domesticated, humans werent' there to separate them during heat cycles...I believe in let nature take its course unless the dog is FORSURE in danger...U do not know if this gal is going to have trouble...And yes i am putting this right up there with human abortion, i don' like it any better...Nor do i like the gas chambers filled with animals, but i do believe in giving the animals a chance at life...
> besides the fact of it was really getting expensive here for the breeding, we got out of it because i didn't feel we were doing the breed any better..


I'm sorry but I've never been so MAD at someones obvious ignorant comment.
DO NOT listen to this person they are the worse example of a person to listen to when it comes to breeding.
I was a shelter employee and euthanized sooooo many dogs it's heart wrenching. I held each one of those dogs in my arms as their lives slipped from their bodies. These were dogs of ALL ages, purebred and mutt.

I know this was an old post but I had to throw in my two cents and a whole lot of first hand experience. I have had two litters, one an "oops" litter and one carefully planned out. It will probably be a long time before I have another one as they are very time and money consuming.


----------



## DharmasMom

Gabbi510 said:


>



Awwww, she and the pups are adorable. I agree she does look too young to have pups but there you have it and she seems to be doing a fine job. 

I can't give you any advice on the rearing of these little guys as I have never had a litter (nor have any desire to) but please listen to the people on here who have experience in this matter. There are quite a few people on here who have whelped and reared many litters so they know all the tricks of the trade so to speak. Please listen. We want to keep those precious babies safe and healthy so they reach the time when they will be bounding out of that whelping box and romping and playing and you will be looking for great homes for them.


----------



## middleofnowhere

DharmasMom said:


> First of all, congratulations on the safe delivery on your girl's pups and I am glad she is being a good mother. I sincerely hope you can find good homes for all of them. I agree with the people that say involve a rescue to help you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second, this comment is just rude. People come here for help. Gabbi initially came here for help with her situation. Many people, instead of trying to help her told her to abort the puppies and move on. That was not a choice she was comfortable with. Once people were aware of that the should have either left the thread or gave her the best advice possible.
> 
> Her dog safely delivered the puppies and is taking care of them like a good mother should. So you arrive in here with your negative comment when you should have just kept your "mouth" shut and backed out of this thread. The pups are already here, they were safely delivered and mom and pups are doing well. It was nice of Gabbi to update us. What would you have her do? Put the pups in a canvas sack ans toss them in a river? We want Gabbi to come back here to ask questions that she has during this time and to feel comfortable asking for any advise she may feel she needs. Your sanctimonious comment could prevent her from doing that. Like Thumper said "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all".


Sweetie, no one gets anywhere telling me to keep my "mouth shut" and back out of any thread.

A novice with an quasi accidental breeding came here posting for advise. Having read the thread and her responses, I am not the least bit surprised at the route she took. I am not happy with the news of more questionably bred GSDs hitting the ground. I see no cause for joy. I want dogs to be a rare and treasured thing, ownership to be much sought after. Unfortunately, they are a common commodity, often getting less than they deserve. So you consider it rude of me to express my lack of joy at the outcome (more pups of questionable quality). So be it.

I find sugar coating the situation irresponsible. I would rather be rude than irresponsible.


----------



## x0emiroxy0x

Oh my gosh!!! She is rockys twin!!!


----------



## selzer

xo, 

Perhaps the op, just could not bring themselves to abort a litter (emergency spay) and I can understand that. If that was the case, than whelping the litter and going the whole nine yards to ensure that they have a great start on life and good homes, if not commendable is taking responsibility. And reading up on it, instead of just thinking that people have puppies all the time, there must not be that much to it, well that is commendable.

So a bad situation is a little less bad, kind of like a theif who knocks over a bevarage store, and hurts the proprietor in a scuffle and stops long enough to make sure he is ok. It does not change the fact that he robbed the beverage store. He should maybe not be commended for stopping the bleeding and calling an ambulance. It was the right think to do. Doing the right thing, is expected. But we sit around commending people for taking responsibility and taking care of the mess they made. Ok. 

Would you feel the same way, if you knew that the reason they did not do an emergency spay was BECAUSE they were planning on breeding her down the line, and an emergency spay would make that impossible?

At that point you are risking the life of a puppy that you allowed to get bred way too young, not because you have a deep seated conviction about life being sacred, but because it means you will not be able to get more puppies out of her. 

We can only go by comments the OP had made. Judging people is a part of living. Anyone who says they do not judge others is probably pretty hypocritical. 

The OP had better start getting really good at judging people, because she will have to do so for each of her puppies. 

This site is actually not that critical at all. My pet peeves are oopse litters, and people letting their dogs roam free. I have little patience for either of them. I do not believe in oopse litters. It isn't that hard to keep male and female separated, and if you cannot do so, then maybe you should not own an intact animal. 

Other people's pet peeves are people leaving their dogs in a car in hot weather. Dog dies a nasty death. I can see how someone might do that accidently, forgetting the dog is in the car when they run into the store for a bottle of milk and run into someone they know; or forgetting the dog is in the car, or not realizing how quickly the car will get hot. On that topic, people on this site are EXTREMELY unforgiving. 

I feel the same way about oopse litters. Others do too, but for other reasons. I do because the almighty oopse litter is why local governments try to pass legislation for mandatory spay neuter. And if the percentage of actual oopse be truly known -- all the litters that people really wanted to have, but realized later it might not be a good idea, and litters where people simply do not care if the bitch gets pregnant taken out there would only be a few cases far between. Cases of a silent heat, or a dog chewing through a garage and two crates to get to the bitch. Having owned intact animals, those cases have to be VERY rare.

Other people may not like oops litters, because they just tried for five days to get a couple of adolescent purebred GSDs adopted out of a kill shelter, but time ran out, and those dogs faced a heart stick or gassing, just because no one wanted them. 

If you want to see a negative site, go to pedigree database. Then you will come back and say how sweet and tame we are.


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## x0emiroxy0x

Selzer, nothing you just said was negative in any way. The way you spoke is what I was asking people to do. I don't believe in the OPs choice to keep the litter, I was just saying that the wise members on here should tell her what to do next instead of making comments that don't help.

I think my dumb comment of "gsd snobs" set everyone off and muddled my main point...which is my own fault.

I just wanted everyone to tell her their opinions in a manner in which they were not insulting her or scaring her off.

I obviously combated what I deemed negative comments in the completely wrong manner and I apologize...


Ps... I'm on an iPhone and cannot type well on it so i apologize for spelling errors!

When i get home from work i read all the new post everyday, hoping to learn more on the breed so i can be the best possible owner... In the past few days I've seen some comments that just aren't neccessary (like mine, i should have messages the poster instead of callin them out) and I got frustrated and reacted in the wrong way

Once again, I apologize. All I wanted was for the posts to sound like your previous one ... Full of advice but presented in a polite, yet not exactly happy about the situation, tone.


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## onyx'girl

xO, you should be commended for apologizing...it is a hard thing for many to do.
Stick around awhile and you'll see that 99% of the posters here say what they say for a reason and it isn't just to rile up the masses or cause drama. It is to help this breed from going downhill. On the database 99% say what they say to cause drama and rile up the masses!!


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## sitstay

I have often wondered over my years as a member here how many of these "Oops Litter" breeders actually use a rescue to place the puppies.

One of the pieces of advice that is always shared on these threads is to use a reputable rescue to help place the puppies. Rightly so, as far as I am concerned. And often the "Oops" breeder agrees, and will sometimes even go so far as to say they will absolutely get a rescue's help in placing the pups. But we never hear anything about how placement went, or which rescue was used. 

I am inclined to think that the puppies are actually sold, and no rescue help is used. I can hear the justifications for doing it that way, not the least of which is the desire to recoup the cost of feeding Mom and pups for how ever many weeks. These are purebreds, after all! And as such they have some value, and the person who has put so much effort into raising them right should benefit from their value. Right? And besides, all the doom and gloom about the whelping process and the raising of a litter never happened, so who is to say that the breeder can't do just as good a job finding good homes themselves? They have done well so far, right? The rationalizations are endless. And wrong, if seen as part of a bigger picture.

I have to shake my head a little at the congratulatory responses, and the "Oh, how CUTE" replies when pictures are posted. Would anyone be so quick to congratulate if the topic was "driving drunk worked okay this time because I didn't kill anyone on my way home"? For rescue people, or responsible/reputable breeders, these kinds of threads are like that. Even if we are glad beyond belief that nobody was killed on the way home, we are not going to cheer the original act of driving drunk. We're glad the Momma pup and her babies are alive, but we aren't going to cheer the human error that got them here.
Sheilah


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## RubyTuesday

Jane, it's not what people say so much as the way it's said. Nothing is accomplished when posters are treated so rudely they flee. Those who are concerned with oops litters, poor breeding practices, training methods etc should care enough to temper their approach & be persuasive & (hopefully) make a difference rather than being combative & simply pushing people away.

Simple courtesy s/b the norm. It's not necessarily all warm & fuzzy, hearts & flowers ilk. Nor does it demand 'agreement'. IF posters treated each other with half the respect we accord our dogs the tenor on this board would improve considerably & so would meaningful communication.


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## onyx'girl

I believe I do treat others with respect...and am courteous in my posts. If I don't then _I_ apologize.


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## Kayos and Havoc

The whole thread......


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## DharmasMom

middleofnowhere said:


> Sweetie, no one gets anywhere telling me to keep my "mouth shut" and back out of any thread.
> 
> A novice with an quasi accidental breeding came here posting for advise. Having read the thread and her responses, I am not the least bit surprised at the route she took. I am not happy with the news of more questionably bred GSDs hitting the ground. I see no cause for joy. I want dogs to be a rare and treasured thing, ownership to be much sought after. Unfortunately, they are a common commodity, often getting less than they deserve. So you consider it rude of me to express my lack of joy at the outcome (more pups of questionable quality). So be it.
> 
> I find sugar coating the situation irresponsible. I would rather be rude than irresponsible.




First of all I am not your "Sweetie". You really are quite condescending to people aren't you? It must be quite a view up there looking down on us mere mortals.

Second, you don't have to be happy about the situation. I don't think anybody is exactly happy about it but to make the remark you did wasn't "responsible" as you put it, it was sanctimonious and nasty. The whole freaking world already knows there is a pet over population problem. Lord knows the ASPCA shows it in their advertisements every 15 minutes when they are asking for money. And Bob Barker was telling people for years on The Price is Right when he told people to get their pets spayed or neutered. The fact is you don't like the fact that this litter was born so you decided to have your say. And your say was a condescending, sanctimonious, nasty remark. 

You didn't have any advice to the OP that was helpful, just a rude remark. Please don't fool yourself. You weren't being responsible, you were being down right mean and you served no purpose. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and if it makes you feel good to make mean, disrespectful remarks to newcomers to the site who come here for advice then it shows badly on you.


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## DharmasMom

Oh and plenty of other people have had EXACTLY your opinion without being nasty about it. And they have worded their posts in such a way that are educational and will keep someone coming back to learn more. Your way just alienates people.


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## selzer

DharmasMom said:


> First of all I am not your "Sweetie". You really are quite condescending to people aren't you? It must be quite a view up there looking down on us mere mortals.
> 
> Second, you don't have to be happy about the situation. I don't think anybody is exactly happy about it but to make the remark you did wasn't "responsible" as you put it, it was sanctimonious and nasty. The whole freaking world already knows there is a pet over population problem. Lord knows the ASPCA shows it in their advertisements every 15 minutes when they are asking for money. And Bob Barker was telling people for years on The Price is Right when he told people to get their pets spayed or neutered. The fact is you don't like the fact that this litter was born so you decided to have your say. And your say was a condescending, sanctimonious, nasty remark.
> 
> You didn't have any advice to the OP that was helpful, just a rude remark. Please don't fool yourself. You weren't being responsible, you were being down right mean and you served no purpose. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and if it makes you feel good to make mean, disrespectful remarks to newcomers to the site who come here for advice then it shows badly on you.


Boy this really ticks me off. 

How come it is ok to tell people they are condescending or on a high horse or looking down on mere mortals is OK???

Because she called you sweetie, and said not to tell her to shut up???

Who is really being negative here??? 

And, Middleofnowhere DID have a point pertinent to this post. Her point is that we are sitting here congratulating and oohing and ahing over pictures of puppies born out of a puppy. A puppy that COULD have DIED. A puppy that was not spayed when she was impregnated early because the owner wants to produce more puppies out of her down the line -- that is in the OPs posts. 

Why should people sit here and say NOTHING?

No one wants them to drown a litter of live puppies. 

At the same time, what does it say to all the newbies thinking about breeding their puppies when they come into heat. Wow, if I just say that boy got her, everyone will slap me on the back and welcome me, and give me kudos for all the cute puppy pictures.

Not saying anything, and just letting people congratulate her on her accomplishment is in fact condoning what has been done. And three or four people reading this thread might see this, and how everyone is so happy about the puppies, and how everything went great, and be less hesitant about accidently on purpose breeding their youngster. 

And THEY may not be so lucky. And their bitch may not survive. 

But we will have been perfect stepford posters, oh you bred your ten month old puppy, how nice. What pretty pictures. Aren't puppies fun? 

I am not against breeding, or even people wanting to learn about becoming breeders. I think that is great. We need new blood -- people who want to do it right. But this situation could have so easily been a tragedy. And the next owner of a ten month old puppy having puppies might come on here saying their dog ate all her puppies. Or their dog got a puppy stuck and they did not get her to the vet on time, and they need to orphan raise the first two puppies now. 

It is not rude to say that this is not something to be happy about. It really isn't. Eventhough we are all glad that the bitch and pups are doing ok. It reminds us to temper our responses because there ARE people watching and reading and thinking about breeding their too young bitch.


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## arycrest

selzer said:


> Boy this really ticks me off.
> 
> How come it is ok to tell people they are condescending or on a high horse or looking down on mere mortals is OK???
> 
> Because she called you sweetie, and said not to tell her to shut up???
> 
> Who is really being negative here???
> 
> And, Middleofnowhere DID have a point pertinent to this post. Her point is that we are sitting here congratulating and oohing and ahing over pictures of puppies born out of a puppy. A puppy that COULD have DIED. A puppy that was not spayed when she was impregnated early because the owner wants to produce more puppies out of her down the line -- that is in the OPs posts.
> 
> Why should people sit here and say NOTHING?
> 
> No one wants them to drown a litter of live puppies.
> 
> At the same time, what does it say to all the newbies thinking about breeding their puppies when they come into heat. Wow, if I just say that boy got her, everyone will slap me on the back and welcome me, and give me kudos for all the cute puppy pictures.
> 
> Not saying anything, and just letting people congratulate her on her accomplishment is in fact condoning what has been done. And three or four people reading this thread might see this, and how everyone is so happy about the puppies, and how everything went great, and be less hesitant about accidently on purpose breeding their youngster.
> 
> And THEY may not be so lucky. And their bitch may not survive.
> 
> But we will have been perfect stepford posters, oh you bred your ten month old puppy, how nice. What pretty pictures. Aren't puppies fun?
> 
> I am not against breeding, or even people wanting to learn about becoming breeders. I think that is great. We need new blood -- people who want to do it right. But this situation could have so easily been a tragedy. And the next owner of a ten month old puppy having puppies might come on here saying their dog ate all her puppies. Or their dog got a puppy stuck and they did not get her to the vet on time, and they need to orphan raise the first two puppies now.
> 
> It is not rude to say that this is not something to be happy about. It really isn't. Eventhough we are all glad that the bitch and pups are doing ok. It reminds us to temper our responses because there ARE people watching and reading and thinking about breeding their too young bitch.


:thumbup: Well said!!!


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## DharmasMom

There are plenty of people here who have already made the comment that this is not a good situation. They just haven't made rude comments about it. There is a difference. And calling me sweetie IS being condescending to me. So yeppers I will be condescending right back. And maybe earlier on I should have worded it that I felt she should stop typing and back out of the thread rather than make the comment she did. 

I haven't said Gabbi should be congratulated on having the puppies all though I do think she should be congratulated because mom and pups made it through safely and mom is being a good mom rather than eating them. She got lucky. There is a difference. But I also don't think treating her like a pariah and telling her "please don't post pictures, we don't want to encourage others" is appropriate either. I'll be honest, I want to see pictures. I am glad the puppies are healthy and mom is doing well. If that makes me horrible- so be it, I've been called worse.

ETA--I read your post wrong. I thought you said for her not to post pictures. Sorry.


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## onyx'girl

Well, seeing that pic makes me worry. heater and blankets in the box don't bode well for the safety of those pups...hope they don't get suffocated or burned.


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## selzer

How about this. 

When you see a post is rather negative,

Why not just post a post in support of the op, not a comment on the negative post or poster. 

Then you are being positive, and you are not doing exactly what you condemn the offending party of doing.

If everyone would stop trying to correct people, who they have little business trying to correct, we would not have had to go on for fourteen more pages that what is necessary. 

Ok, so now I am correcting you guys, for correcting us guys, for correcting you guys, for correcting us guys...


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## Lucy Dog

Gabbi510 said:


>


Wow... she is just a baby. Does she even have her adult coat in yet??

I have no advice and probably shouldn't have even responded, but it's sad to see something like this when this situation could have easily been avoided... before and after pregnancy.

Best of luck to mom and all the puppies.


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## DharmasMom

selzer said:


> How about this.
> 
> When you see a post is rather negative,
> 
> Why not just post a post in support of the op, not a comment on the negative post or poster.
> 
> Then you are being positive, and you are not doing exactly what you condemn the offending party of doing.
> 
> If everyone would stop trying to correct people, who they have little business trying to correct, we would not have had to go on for fourteen more pages that what is necessary.
> 
> Ok, so now I am correcting you guys, for correcting us guys, for correcting you guys, for correcting us guys...



That is actually not a bad idea. And truthfully, I usually stay out of the snarkiness that goes on. That comment just rubbed me the wrong way...


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## selzer

I agree, the heater in the box can be a big problem, ususally they turn on and off, and a fan runs which will cause drafts as well.

And puppies can get stuck under or in the blankets. As much as I have heard negatives to them, newspapers are really safer for puppies, less likely to get stuck or under one of them.

A heat lamp over the a corner of the box, so dam and pups can get away from it, is better.


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## Gabbi510

onyx'girl said:


> Well, seeing that pic makes me worry. heater and blankets in the box don't bode well for the safety of those pups...hope they don't get suffocated or burned.


I only put the heater inside when I'm inside the room which is when I'm not at work.... I'm with them all my free to
E making sure they eat, don't get squished, and my bf helps as well and it does hurt that you guys think I'm a bad person which I'm not because I do plan on spaying when she finishes breast feeding. But they do have homes already and with most it's my family members So I'll watch em grow  I love em sooo much and don't want no harm done to them or my Laydi.


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## selzer

Sometimes ya got to say how ya feel about things.

I think it depends on how tired I am. 

When I am really tired, I can get into some real scrapes.

If I go back and read it when I am not quite as tired, sometimes I find that I over-reacted.


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## DharmasMom

Gabbi510 said:


> I only put the heater inside when I'm inside the room which is when I'm not at work.... I'm with them all my free to
> E making sure they eat, don't get squished, and my bf helps as well and it does hurt that you guys think I'm a bad person which I'm not because I do plan on spaying when she finishes breast feeding. But they do have homes already and with most it's my family members So I'll watch em grow  I love em sooo much and don't want no harm done to them or my Laydi.



I don't think you are a bad person. I think you made a mistake. And no matter what anyone else says on here I would like pics of the pups as they grow!


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## selzer

Gabbi510 said:


> I only put the heater inside when I'm inside the room which is when I'm not at work.... I'm with them all my free to
> E making sure they eat, don't get squished, and my bf helps as well and it does hurt that you guys think I'm a bad person which I'm not because I do plan on spaying when she finishes breast feeding. But they do have homes already and with most it's my family members So I'll watch em grow  I love em sooo much and don't want no harm done to them or my Laydi.


If the box is not warm enough you need heat. Not only when you are there, or when you are watching. 

If the box is warm enough without the added heat get it out of there for safety's sake, and to keep drafts to a minimum.

I am going through this heat thing right now. I am not talking through my backside on this. Puppies need to be warm, but having the heating source go on and off is not a good idea. 

A light bulb, yellow light heating just a corner of the box should be sufficient. 

What is the temperature of the room she is in?


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## selzer

Gabbi510 said:


> I only put the heater inside when I'm inside the room which is when I'm not at work.... I'm with them all my free to
> E making sure they eat, don't get squished, and my bf helps as well and it does hurt that you guys think I'm a bad person which I'm not because I do plan on spaying when she finishes breast feeding. But they do have homes already and with most it's my family members So I'll watch em grow  I love em sooo much and don't want no harm done to them or my Laydi.


 
Family members. Hmmm. I have two dogs with family members. Of the two dogs I have gotten back, one of them was a family member. Of the people who said they would take a dog and then did not, one was a family member. Hope you have better luck with your family.

It is not that we think you are a bad person. EVERYONE LOVES THEIR DOG AND THINKS THEY ARE AWESOME. But if everyone breeds their dog just the one time, then that is 6 - 14 x the number of dogs out there. Do you see what that does to dog population.

I like to think the site is to educate people and to benefit the breed. We encourage responsible breeding practices and discourage irresponsible breeding practices. Breeding a puppy, by oopse or not, is irresponsible. The irritation in this post is mostly from people who like to scrap back and fourth. An individual made a comment that by itself would not have been that big of a deal. Even you who are new, would probably of just though, wow, she's a bit upset, and gotten over it. 

But it gets dragged out because people come in defending and condemning until we forget what the post is all about.

Allowing that pup to get pregnant and then whelp a litter is irresponsible. A year and a half from now, after hip and elbows are done, after she has her adult temperament, after she has been to classes and is pretty well trained -- some people would STILL not like that you bred her, but then, it would not have been quite the same as it is right now, when she is really not even full grown. 

Having some people not being thrilled about this litter is not hating, it is just not being thrilled. You are on a site where people love dogs, and love the breed. They are not all going to be thrilled about this situation.


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## Zoeys mom

If I'm not mistaken it's only the first few days they have trouble keeping normal body temps- a room in the 70's is fine. In a few weeks they'll be up and wobbling around, peeing and pooping every other step, and definitely won't need supplemental heat but I too would remove the heater. 

I for one don't think your a bad person....naive yes, but bad absolutely not. I know people have been harsh but it was the mom's health we were all worried about. Your very lucky Laydi delivered safely and is doing well- that is what is most important here. Her getting pregnant in the first place is the naivety I am speaking of btw I don't want you to think I am calling you immature or stupid because I highly doubt you are Now you know just how fast a male can get to a female and I'm sure it's not a mistake you'll make again, but so far it looks like your making the best of it.

I hope in the future if you have any questions or concerns you feel comfortable coming here and asking- wouldn't be surprised if you didn't; but I hope you know between all the not so friendly posts there are people here willing and able to help you out. Good luck and I hope all those beautiful pups go to amazing homes


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## selzer

Puppies take three weeks to get to the adult temperature of 101.5 - 102 degrees. For the first week or so, they are at 97-98 degrees and the temperature starts going up. 

Around 94-96 degrees the digestive tract is paralyzed. If a puppy is fed at this point it will die. If you are not tubing, or supplementing, this is not a problem because the puppy will not try to eat when it is cold. But then it will get dehydrated and weak to the point that it cannot eat.

This is not really that hard usually with natural birth and a healthy litter. Everything goes fine. It is when you have problems, a pup not doing well, that you have to be very careful about how warm it is and when you feed it. Usually the puppies will pile together when they are cold, and spread out when they are warm, they will stay close to mom for warmth. The one think they can sense when born is warmth, usually mom can keep them warm.


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## Larien

Just want to pop in and say thanks to selzer for saying exactly what needed to be said in exactly the way it needed to be said. It's what a lot of us are thinking but were either unable or unwilling to reiterate.

Best of luck to the OP and the pups, and their mother. I hope everything turns out alright for them, and that their homes are loving and permanent. And thank you for coming here with the questions, it was the right thing to do.


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## Betty

I'm also guided by my mom and pups on temperature. if they are all huddled together I crank the heat up a notch, moving apart crank it down.


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## RubyTuesday

Jane, you are indeed always, always, always respectful. I was simply responding to something you had said referring to some of the posts in the thread. I do think several posters were not respectful, but I do not number you among them, not in this thread nor elsewhere. I am sincerely sorry that was unclear in my post.


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## Jessiewessie99

It seems like no one needed my brownies.=)

All puppies are cute, but it is sad to see a baby having babies. I wish the mom and puppies the best of luck. 

To the OP: We don't think you are a bad person, we just think what you did was bad. There are many people here with alot of experience who are ready to help and offer advice. Listen and take it in.


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## lhczth

To all those who post from this point forward. No more arguing back and forth. No more off topic posts on this subject. The puppies are born. If you have nothing productive or helpful to say than do not post. Anyone who doesn't listen to this general warning will receive a personal warning. Ignore that warning and you will receive a temporary suspension from the board.

I hope I have made myself clear. 

Admin Lisa

*****


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## CaliBoy

selzer said:


> Sometimes ya got to say how ya feel about things.
> 
> I think it depends on how tired I am.
> 
> When I am really tired, I can get into some real scrapes.
> 
> If I go back and read it when I am not quite as tired, sometimes I find that I over-reacted.


Sue, I think it was so gracious of you to post this. I know I have had the same feelings--when I'm tired, and after my tiredness passes and I re-read things. I suspect that in 99% of our slugfests on this site, what is going on is that people are tired/stressed/upset and a word or phrase in a post pushes a button, or lights up the whole control panel in our brain, triggering a "shootout at the O.K. Corral." 

But not many folks come back and put in a few words which are gracious or pithy to make up for the shootout. Your post was very nice in that way.

Gabbi: I wish you, your bf, mom, and the babies, all the best and pray that the babies are truly happy and loved in their new homes.


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## Gabbi510

Thank you I wish for the best as well heres a pix of 4 puppies together so cute!


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## arycrest

They're so innocent at that age!!! That one at the top looks like a big fellow!!! Any names yet?


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## Good_Karma

Cannot deny the cuteness!


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## krystyne73

Is hay for warmth out of the question? I use Bermuda grass hay, which is safe to eat, for my tortoise (not dogs). 
Is this something you can use to rear pups when they start walking around? I like it because it bonds with the urine a little better than paper, plus I would think the smell of grass would help potty training them? I question the statement because its my thoughts , I have only reared a few pups that people leave at my door.
Also I remember using those rubber bottle warmers (don't remember what they are called) to warm the pups up. (some one dumped off a litter of puppies on me because their mom had died). 

She looks like she is trying to be a good momma dog, glad you will spay her after this. You are doing good checking here for advice. (I'm new too)


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## selzer

wood chips I might use, but hay or straw, well it sounds hard to clean. Newspapers really do work well. I have used litter box liners, fake lambs wool, but sometimes the bitch likes to chew those up. It really depends on how much nesting and bleeding mom is still doing.


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## RubyTuesday

I think Djibouti's breeder uses hay & simply sweeps it up, washes down as needed & discards the dirty hay. They can't entangle in it like blankets or towels, strangle/impact on it like extended bolts of cloth or wool, & it provides necessary warmth, drainage & absorbency. For the same readons, I've heard good things about old newspapers.

Gabbi, friends' of mine with oops litters experienced much the same thing as Sue (Selzer). Family members that promised/wanted to take a pup were too often nothing but excuses when the big*day arrived. Unfortunately, they didn't give an inkling about their change of heart until pressed. IF you don't work with a rescue, do line up more than enough homes. It's not uncommon for 1/2 or more to fall through, & always at the very last minute.

And please, please, please try to assure they're speutered even if it means helping with the cost. Many people will not be as dedicated & committed as you've been if they're faced with an oops litter.

we've got all paws & fingers crossed for you & the pups...


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## Larien

Straw (not hay) is very easy to spot clean, I know because it's what my miniature horses were raised on as foals. If it's easy to clean horse biscuits from, lol, I'm sure doggie ones would be no problem. It also helps with warmth, very good substrate.


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## Whiteshepherds

selzer said:


> wood chips I might use, but hay or straw, well it sounds hard to clean. Newspapers really do work well. I have used litter box liners, fake lambs wool, but sometimes the bitch likes to chew those up. It really depends on how much nesting and bleeding mom is still doing.


Be careful about using wood chips, some of them are treated with chemicals.


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## trudy

UM who wants straw in their house?? Use newspapers and a bed so they learn to walk away from their sleeping spot to toilet elsewhere, They will stay clean if you clean it often enough, several times a day, and remember the more space they have the less apt to get dirty. So once they start moving have separate areas, and clean, clean, clean...


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## KLCecil

This was my set up;









































I only used blankets/towels and check on the pups frequently only once did I find a pup wrapped up and he was in no danger just sleeping. Beding had to be changed and washed three times a day but I much prefer it to newspaper even though that is fine also but I find it messy. 

When the pups got older(4 weeks) I moved them out into the kitchen and put up a puppy pen with the sliding glass door cracked open to a small pen outside during the day when I was home. They could come and go when they pleased.


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## KLCecil

I wanted to also point out that the guide I had posted in a early post tells you where the Temp needs and at what age. It was very helpful for me since it was a day by day, week by week guide.
What I got later(just before the pups were born) since this was a winter litter was a little space heater and a stick on temp gage(it was plastic and made for a hermit crab cage but worked perfect). I stuck the temp gage at the back of the whelping box so I knew what temp it was in the box, if it got a little below I would turn on the space heater which was set up next to the fan and let it heat up the room. It worked great and I never had cold puppies.


----------



## KLCecil

sit said:


> I have often wondered over my years as a member here how many of these "Oops Litter" breeders actually use a rescue to place the puppies.
> 
> One of the pieces of advice that is always shared on these threads is to use a reputable rescue to help place the puppies. Rightly so, as far as I am concerned. And often the "Oops" breeder agrees, and will sometimes even go so far as to say they will absolutely get a rescue's help in placing the pups. But we never hear anything about how placement went, or which rescue was used.
> 
> I am inclined to think that the puppies are actually sold, and no rescue help is used. I can hear the justifications for doing it that way, not the least of which is the desire to recoup the cost of feeding Mom and pups for how ever many weeks. These are purebreds, after all! And as such they have some value, and the person who has put so much effort into raising them right should benefit from their value. Right? And besides, all the doom and gloom about the whelping process and the raising of a litter never happened, so who is to say that the breeder can't do just as good a job finding good homes themselves? They have done well so far, right? The rationalizations are endless. And wrong, if seen as part of a bigger picture.
> 
> I have to shake my head a little at the congratulatory responses, and the "Oh, how CUTE" replies when pictures are posted. Would anyone be so quick to congratulate if the topic was "driving drunk worked okay this time because I didn't kill anyone on my way home"? For rescue people, or responsible/reputable breeders, these kinds of threads are like that. Even if we are glad beyond belief that nobody was killed on the way home, we are not going to cheer the original act of driving drunk. We're glad the Momma pup and her babies are alive, but we aren't going to cheer the human error that got them here.
> Sheilah


Since you wanted to know;
My oops litter actually resulted between an Rescue Aussie and my show Alaskan Malamute. They were in the care of my ex as I was in the process of moving out BUT I take full responsibility for the litter happening (I should have expressed my concern as I thought she might be going through a silent heat and I didn't). 
Now for the part you wanted to know about 
Since my Malamute breeder was a very well known breeder and big on their rescue I was offered guidance on what to do. #1 chip all the puppies #2 sell on contract with chip number on the contract. #3 Require Spay/neuter. #4 DO NOT give them away for free. I sold each puppy at $300 which is what the rescue adopts them out for. Each pup was microchiped, had two sets of vx and they were wormed. I was then told to contact the adopters at 6mth and 1 year to make sure everything was going ok. The rescue would send me pictures of dogs that they thought were maybe one of my pups then after in case one was either in a bad situation or wound up at the shelter. With the contract I could remove one of my pups from an abusive situation and the shelter could release the pup over to me.
Rescues can be VERY helpful and I am truly thankful for them.


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## Gabbi510

Laydi resting downstairs


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## Ryder&SophieSue

well congrats on the new arrivals...I am glad everyone is ok and looking good...you are most certainly not a bad person, it was an accident. They are beautiful...congrats again,..


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## sitstay

KLCecil said:


> My oops litter actually resulted between an Rescue Aussie and my show Alaskan Malamute.


Thanks for your answer! I sent you a PM.
Sheilah


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## DharmasMom

Gabbi510 said:


> Laydi resting downstairs



She is a very beautiful girl!!


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## Gabbi510

Thought I'd post a pic of Paco, the puppies daddy


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## Larien

He's a lovely guy, Gabbi. Can I ask how much he weighs?


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## Gabbi510

Larien said:


> He's a lovely guy, Gabbi. Can I ask how much he weighs?


I would say he's no more than 70... He's not a very tall guy, as I have seen taller shepherds  but he is very smart. He sleeps with us but with Laydi I'm still working on getting her 100% potty trained. He's a very sweet loving guy. I love them all very much


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## Gabbi510

Update: puppies are starting to walk they can hear me now when I enter the room. They're so adorable, but momma Laydi I've noticed is not feeding them as much and wants to play with Paco, so I was wondering when would it be good to start feeding them puppy food. I haven't checked for teeth, but I do mk sure they eat. I stay in the room for her to feed them, she does get a Lil restless but not aggressive. Im thinking because they're getting bigger. Well I hope for advice thanks


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## vomlittlehaus

At the very earliest you cant start feeding them at 3 wks. 3 1/2 would be better. If you are feeding mom puppy food (and you should be) you can soak that with water or condensed milk and then mash it up. Should be very watery consistency. And warming it up too, so its not cold. Sometimes you have to stick their nose or foot in it. They will lick it off and then realize what it is. Or put it on your finger and in their mouth.


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## Lin

Are you weighing the pups to make sure they keep increasing? You can mix canned food (more nutritional than kibble) with puppy milk replacer for young pups. Not sure what age is best, my only experience is with orphans.


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## mydogrocks

I just wanted to say congratulations on the puppies and mom being healthy.
My dog was an "opps" litter but the male literally did go through 2 fences, a crate, and a door to get to the female (not making any excuses just saying dogs can be pretty determined) The owner of the dogs was amazing, she took full responsibility and and had to hand raise the puppies when the mother got an infection in her nipples that made her milk unsafe. Also my pup is coming up on 10months and she calls or emails and is _always_ there to help us. She has even gone so far as to pay to get our boy neutered to ensurer we don't have the some issue. She would take him back in a heart beat if we had to give him up, she has taken him for us when we've been called out of town. She kept 3 of the puppies until she found really good homes for them, she turned several people down after looking at where her puppies would be living and how the other dogs on the property would be treated.We have a contract on our dog that she had written up by a lawyer at her own expense. (and she's not rich or anything just determined to do right by her pups) She is probably the prime example of what to do with an "oops" litter. 
I'm only saying this because I want the OP to realize her commitment to the puppies even after they leave her care and if she doesn't think she can do all of these things then she should go through a rescue.


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## Myamom

Excellent post mydogrocks...and great example of someone doing everything right for their puppies!


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## KLCecil

mydogrocks said:


> i just wanted to say congratulations on the puppies and mom being healthy.
> My dog was an "opps" litter but the male literally did go through 2 fences, a crate, and a door to get to the female (not making any excuses just saying dogs can be pretty determined) the owner of the dogs was amazing, she took full responsibility and and had to hand raise the puppies when the mother got an infection in her nipples that made her milk unsafe. Also my pup is coming up on 10months and she calls or emails and is _always_ there to help us. She has even gone so far as to pay to get our boy neutered to ensurer we don't have the some issue. She would take him back in a heart beat if we had to give him up, she has taken him for us when we've been called out of town. She kept 3 of the puppies until she found really good homes for them, she turned several people down after looking at where her puppies would be living and how the other dogs on the property would be treated.we have a contract on our dog that she had written up by a lawyer at her own expense. (and she's not rich or anything just determined to do right by her pups) she is probably the prime example of what to do with an "oops" litter.
> I'm only saying this because i want the op to realize her commitment to the puppies even after they leave her care and if she doesn't think she can do all of these things then she should go through a rescue.


like!


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## TitonsDad

mydogrocks said:


> I just wanted to say congratulations on the puppies and mom being healthy.
> My dog was an "opps" litter but the male literally did go through 2 fences, a crate, and a door to get to the female (not making any excuses just saying dogs can be pretty determined) The owner of the dogs was amazing, she took full responsibility and and had to hand raise the puppies when the mother got an infection in her nipples that made her milk unsafe. Also my pup is coming up on 10months and she calls or emails and is _always_ there to help us. She has even gone so far as to pay to get our boy neutered to ensurer we don't have the some issue. She would take him back in a heart beat if we had to give him up, she has taken him for us when we've been called out of town. She kept 3 of the puppies until she found really good homes for them, she turned several people down after looking at where her puppies would be living and how the other dogs on the property would be treated.We have a contract on our dog that she had written up by a lawyer at her own expense. (and she's not rich or anything just determined to do right by her pups) She is probably the prime example of what to do with an "oops" litter.
> I'm only saying this because I want the OP to realize her commitment to the puppies even after they leave her care and if she doesn't think she can do all of these things then she should go through a rescue.


Epic win right there!


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## Gabbi510

They're getting so big  hehehe they look like fluffy bears n yes I'm making sure they eat n drink n play with them lots. Thought I'd update on their growing, thanks everyone for your advice :-D really appreciate it


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## GSD_Xander

Oh geez...how adorable is that


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## JustMeLeslie

sooo cute!


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## JakodaCD OA

VERY cute!!!


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## DharmasMom

OMG!! They are so freaking adorable!!


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## Zoeys mom

They look like big floofy monsters I love it very cute


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## idahospud49

Very cute puppies! I am glad everything has gone okay so far! I couldn't imagine being in that situation.


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## KZoppa

OH!!! SO CUTE!!!! Smiling again!!!


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## DharmasMom

We need updated pictures!!


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## Bakctdrvr

*wow*

I joined today for the friendship and advise. I have sympathy for you. We purchased a pair, he was 13 months and she is 9 1/2 months. got them home and went to work. NO CLUE that she was in heat, they hooked that night. we went to our vet the next morning . He recomended we alow nature to take its course. We think she is pg, but wont confirm till this week. I have a wonderful suportive vet, he has offered alot of help. As soon as safe after birth she will be spayed! We are good with our animals and love them alot, I think this is why they were sold so cheap. We were only going to bring the male home with us, wish the seller had said something. We are watching and praying things go well, I will also pray for you and your family that things go well for you.:crazy:


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## onyx'girl

backctdrvr, I hope you will have an easy whelp for your puppy who's having puppies.
I am really surprised the vet suggested letting nature take its course...Personally, I would have her spayed/terminate the pg if it is still doable, it may be safer for all concerned.
I hope you'll start your own thread if you are choosing to go the route of puppies and get support from experienced breeders.


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## Gabbi510

So all my puppies have been sold and the last 1 to go was what my bf and I called, "the black panther" I'm gonna miss her so much but I am happy that they all went to wonderful homes here is a picture of her when we took her shopping with us & I would like to share, she stoled my heart but has great new home and new lovable parents 








I'm gonna miss her sooo much! But we did keep one puppy... The runt, we're drawing her blood for test as it seems she had one small seizure, we'll know the results by tomorrow and keep you guys posted, this is the runt


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## Blazings

Nice to hear all the puppies have a great home now. How is the mother holding up?


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## JakodaCD OA

so glad you found good homes for all of them,,that black girl is GORGEOUS! and the little runt is soooo very cute to


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## KZoppa

"the black panther" is adorable! glad they all found homes. Hope the runt baby does well!


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## rapnek74

It amazes me that a new person would come on here and get treated like this. This is the main reason I don't frequent this forum much any more. To call her a BYB and treat her the way she was treated sure makes it hard for anyone to get advice. 99% of the people would have left and went elsewhere which wouldn't have been good for the bitch or the pups. 

Sure, I am against breeding a pup... I hold her at fault for letting it happen. She understands she did wrong, leave it at that. 

It's a good thing that people don't take breeding to the extent some of you do... most of us would not be here. 

Congrats on raising the pups and being able to take the beating from some on here. I'm glad you have found homes for them.


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## JustMeLeslie

Please keep us updated on the runt. What is her name? I hope she is ok.


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## Bakctdrvr

*I am glad your family is doing well!*

I joined looking for a bit of support. I stumbled into this thread and did not feel welcome. I am back though to share with you. Our young Ziva was blessed with 2 pups a boy and a girl. They are healthy, and growing fast, Mommy puts us human moms to shame. She is wonderful with them, and the daddy is handeling things great.
Born at 1 1/4 pound each, they are now 6 and 6 1/2 pounds at 3 weeks.
They are doing well on the puppy food.
 thanks Gwen


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## DharmasMom

Bakctdrvr said:


> I joined looking for a bit of support. I stumbled into this thread and did not feel welcome. I am back though to share with you. Our young Ziva was blessed with 2 pups a boy and a girl. They are healthy, and growing fast, Mommy puts us human moms to shame. She is wonderful with them, and the daddy is handeling things great.
> Born at 1 1/4 pound each, they are now 6 and 6 1/2 pounds at 3 weeks.
> They are doing well on the puppy food.
> thanks Gwen



Welcome to the forum and I am sorry you did not feel welcome here the first time around. I am glad to hear things went well for you and that the pups are doing well. I would love to see pictures of the family!!


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## idahospud49

Oh my goodness that black girl is lovely!!!


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