# Questions about breeding my dog with my son's dog



## sandy

I am not a professional breeder but I love my Dogs and raised my kids surrounded by Dogs.

I have a GS Female dog I have bought from a breeder , she has her AKC paperwork and all nine yards,etc.

My son who was moved back home now, has a beautiful Male GS that he bought upstate , when he bought it 

(He obviosuly loves dogs but doesnt know what paperwork is, neither did I, until now)

so when he bought it and ask for the paperwork, they gave him a medical record of the dog and told him that was the dog's "papers".

as the ad had said "papers". My son fell in love with the dog now the dog is 8 months old now.

If they were to breed with my female dog, How can I get AKC or legal trace papers for my son's dog?

I mean if the have puppies they would look beautiful, I will post pics soon of the dogs but seriously I read comments here and I maybe considered a BYB but I do care for the dogs like their are my children.

its not about the money or about the nonsense , but now after reading this I figured that mikes dog is a GSD , but doesnt have OFA or AKC or any other acronym you guys use, but female has...

is there a possibility for my male GSD?



Id be sad if they were to have puppies and I'd want to give them to good homes and some dude starts telling me that Im not a german board certified of the club and think I dont take care of them..I think its kind of obtuse but I understand anyones concern before buying a puppy.

It would be sad to see beautiful healthy puppies suffer just because their father didnt have actual papers.

any suggestions? thanks-


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## selzer

Sandy, 

If you cannot keep the boy separated from the bitch when she is in heat, then have him neutered. 

You cannot guarantee great homes for puppies. Nope, not even ones with all their Ps and Qs in order. 

But when you have your dogs registered with the SV or AKC, that means that their blood line is guaranteed so many generations back and the dog is purebred so long as nobody deliberately falsified the papers. That is step 1. Without that, your dogs may as well be mongrels, you cannot prove they are purebred and their puppies cannot be registered.

Next, is OFA or penn hip, Yes, you want to know that the dogs you are breeding together do not have an inherited problem such as hip or elbow dysplasia. There are other things like thyroid and cardiac that you can test for as well. We do this to ensure our breeding stock is healthy and the puppies will have the odds in their favor to also be healthy. 

But there is so much more than just putting dog and bitch together. I cannot go into it all right now. Read through the breeding section. Read about the bloodlines, genetics, training, trialing, conformation. Read through the health section, you will want to know if those dogs behind your were likely to produce puppies with DM, EPI, soft ears, and any number of other problems in the breed. 

One of the biggest things is finding good owners. It is hard to screen people and then send home a vulnerable eight week old puppy with them and hope they will come through with their promises. Without papers and without health screenings and without training, titles, other accomplishments, and no knowledge of 1/2 of the pedigree, the best and most educated of buyers are completely closed to you. 

Which means you will have to sell or give your dogs away to people who have little knowledge or little money, and most likely both. Will these dogs be left chained out in the back yard, will they be dropped at the pound when the people have to move?

The thing is, you have very little to make demands with. We who have dogs with titles and health clearances and papers will make a contract and ensure that the person pay a fee, and agree to certain conditions. They will answer our questions because if they do not, there is the the door. 

You will not have that luxury. 

Please neuter the dog. And if your really want to breed, check into your bitch's pedigree, train her, title her, do stuff with her, get her involved, test her for health, hip, elbows, etc., and then if she musters up, find a good stud for her and pay a stud fee, produce dogs with papers and some knowledge behind them.


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## MaggieRoseLee

sandy said:


> Id be sad if they were to have puppies and I'd want to give them to good homes and some dude starts telling me that Im not a german board certified of the club and think I dont take care of them..I think its kind of obtuse but I understand anyones concern before buying a puppy.
> 
> It would be sad to see beautiful healthy puppies suffer just because their father didnt have actual papers.
> 
> any suggestions? thanks-


What a great question! My suggestion is DO NOT BREED EITHER OF THESE DOGS!

Reason: cause there are already thousands of WONDERFUL GSD's exactly like yours in shelters and rescues as I type this. Many of these dogs will be dead in the next week or so because there are not enough homes in the USA for all the dogs in general, let alone these GSD's in specific. 

So why add more to that population? Good GSDs.....that may end up in a shelter/rescue/dead by a needle.

Instead, why not just love your dog, love your son's dog, and NOT breed at all. Do you know the hip/elbow history going back generations on both dogs for all progeny? HOw about if they have allergy issues? Mega-esophagus? EPI? Or the other many many genetic problems that are KNOWN to be common in our breed ? German Shepherd Dog Health Problems

RESPONSIBLE breeders will educate themselves and KNOW the genetics going back on both sides. They will work to improve what they have and get rid of weaknesses in their lines. They will GIVE warranties and guarantees and (this is most important...

THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL PUPPIES BRED BY THEM FOREVER! 

So these dogs/pups shouldn't end up in shelters or rescues cause the breeder will ALWAYS willingly take them back. They only SELL these same puppies with mostly limited registries (so new owners can't breed) because they only want the best of their dogs passing on their genetics. They also know there are TOO MANY DOGS out there...........

Not saying anyone can't work to become a responsible breeder over the years. But there should be much more to it than the 'I have a dog I love, you have a dog you love, let's get them together and have puppies!' This is only adding to the pet population death rate in the USA, not helping.

This is what most of us prefer to have in a breeder and a goal I would try to reach should I choose to breed:

Dog Play: Making a Difference: Being a Responsible Dog Breeder

Dog Owner's Guide: Should you breed your dog?

What is a Breeder


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## Cassidy's Mom

sandy said:


> If they were to breed with my female dog, How can I get AKC or legal trace papers for my son's dog?


You can't. In order to register a litter with the AKC, both parents have to be registered. So not only would your puppies not be registered, one or both parents of your son's dog may not be either, and without AKC registration you can't prove that the puppies are purebred. 

Beautiful puppies is not a good reason for breeding your dog. And yes, you would be a BYB, which does not mean you don't love your dogs nor does it imply that you don't take good care of them. It simply means that you're throwing two dogs together willy nilly (one unregistered, and without registration there's no proof he's even a purebred GSD) with no thought to whether or not this is a good match to maintain or improve the breed, simply to produce pretty puppies, and maybe make a buck or two off them. 



sandy said:


> Id be sad if they were to have puppies and I'd want to give them to good homes and some dude starts telling me that Im not a german board certified of the club and think I dont take care of them..I think its kind of obtuse but I understand anyones concern before buying a puppy.
> 
> It would be sad to see beautiful healthy puppies suffer just because their father didnt have actual papers.


If you don't want the puppies to suffer, then don't have any. Your dogs are not just going to "have puppies" if you make sure that they don't by spaying and neutering them or keeping them separate while she's in heat.


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## Castlemaid

Sandy, 

Sue gave you some very good advice, and all have given you lots to think about. Being a BYB doesn't mean that you don't love your dogs and take excellent care of them, because many BYB's do. Being a BYB is someone like yourself who wants to breed without the in-depth knowledge of lines, lineage, and health, and often, dogs without papers and health testing. 

Your dog and your son's dog are lucky to have people that love them as much as you do. But don't we all love our dogs just as much? What I see is that your decision to breed your bitch and your son's dog is purely an emotional one. That you love your dog is a given, but if you love the _breed_, if you have respect for the breed, then you need to take a step back and look at things objectively, not personally, and see that breeding is not doing the _breed_ a favor. 

If you are on this board, asking for information and advice, then that shows that you want to be responsible and do the right thing. So my advice is the same as the rest: please don't breed your bitch, ever. And please don't breed your son's dog. Ever.


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## LaRen616

I agree with what everyone said. If you breed them the puppies will not be able to be Akc registered. You have to do health tests and get their hips checked out. We already have too many unhealthy GSD's in the world due to irresponsible breeding, please do not contribute to it.


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## Liesje

Sandy, the issue here is not the dog's papers, but that you'd be breeding just based on having "papers". Papers make no difference. Your dogs need to prove they are breedworthy with the appropriate health certifications (the puppy one from a vet is not what I'm talking about), training, trials, and titles. You said your dog has "the whole nine yards". What does that mean? She has her hip and elbow ratings, training, titles? If so then why breed her to your son's dog?

Personally, I run not walk from a breeder that tries to sell puppies just on "papers" (and doesn't understand the silliness) or tries to sell puppies simply because they are already born and now I'm a terrible person for not buying one and it looks like you are trying to use both of these strategies. I don't want a breeder that treats their dogs like children, I want a breeder that treats their dogs like German Shepherd dogs and works and titles them accordingly.


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## Courtney

Sandy,

All of the above is the best advice you will ever hear on this topic.

I also don't think you will get ONE person here tell you to breed your dog, which I think you knew as you mentioned reading other topics on this board. That does not mean your dog is not a good family dog/companion-just that breeding her is an awful idea.

If you seriously want to become a breeder find a reputable breeder that can mentor you.


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## Emoore

Also think about if you're willing to put your bitch's health and possibly life at risk for the purpose of breeding. Any breeder can tell you horror stories of bitches being injured or even dying from delivering. My husbands parents did pretty much the same thing you're thinking of doing and the bitch ended up eating one of the puppies and refusing to nurse the rest so they had to be bottle-fed every hour. There were 13 so that's pretty much around the clock. Another pup became ill and died a few days after birth.


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## Whitedog404

Please don't consider breeding for all of the very good reasons offered. And a million more.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Emoore said:


> Also think about if you're willing to put your bitch's health and possibly life at risk for the purpose of breeding. Any breeder can tell you horror stories of bitches being injured or even dying from delivering. My husbands parents did pretty much the same thing you're thinking of doing and the bitch ended up eating one of the puppies and refusing to nurse the rest so they had to be bottle-fed every hour. There were 13 so that's pretty much around the clock. Another pup became ill and died a few days after birth.


A very good point. Bitches can and do die during whelping. Are you ready to risk yours? Emergency c-sections are also not uncommon... and expensive (thousands of dollars). 

Not having health tested parents (not just a simple vet check, tests that cost a lot of money) means there is no guarantee you will have healthy pups. Heck, even with health testing, there's no guarantee. A good breeder needs to be prepared for everything.

Then there's the expense of properly caring for the pups (food, wormer, shots, health care, tons and tons and tons of time spent - no rest for the weary!) as well as trying to find good homes... and knowing that if you don't do the perfect job, your cute puppies might end up in an abusive/neglectful home or in the shelter... and eventually euthanized.


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## EchoGSD

Sandy,
Before you even CONSIDER breeding a litter of pups this way, please take some time to visit the websites of various rescue groups (GSD and others). Go take a look in person at all of the "beautiful healthy" puppies and dogs that are currently living day-to-day in cages at your local humane society and/or pound. Check out the adult dogs, too, who were perhaps adopted or purchased by "good owners" who for some reason later found it appropriate (or necessary) to leave their dogs frightened and confused in a shelter for someone else to deal with. 
Please, please PLEASE do not breed these dogs. Get them both sterilized before an accident happens.


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## Lucy Dog

Why do so many people think they can breed because they have two purebred dogs that they love? I mean, who doesn't love their pets? It seems a post like this pops up everyday...

Why can't people just enjoy their pets and leave the breeding to professionals (who actually know what they're doing)?



sandy said:


> I mean if the have puppies they would look beautiful, I will post pics soon of the dogs but seriously I read comments here and I maybe considered a BYB but I do care for the dogs like their are my children.


You may be? There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. You would be the definition of a backyard breeder if you bred those dogs.


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## jakeandrenee

PLEASE dont breed your dogs, don"t you notice the post all day every day of all the puppies and dogs in the rescue section of this forum???? There are PLENTY of gorgeous puppies and dogs in this world...please don"t make more unneeded dogs....leave the breeding to the pro's.


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## Relayer

This world has far too many unregistered and registered dogs, even GSDs! I think the reason (real reason) amateurs want to breed is to feed a strong emotion they have about it. That is not a good reason. It's not profitable and the homes they get placed in (if they all even do get placed) are probably going to be dubious at best. Please don't breed them.


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## Samba

Caring for the dogs like they are your children does not a good breeder make. Many many people care for their dogs in such a way, but unfortunately, this does not give them the knowledge of the breed or genetics or pairing that is needed for even basically decent breeding. I am certainly glad that you care very much for your animals. This wonderful trait is good to have in a breeder, but it does not a breeder make.


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## selzer

Sandy has just the one post. I think we scared her away.


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## Fuse

selzer said:


> Sandy has just the one post. I think we scared her away.


Hopefully you all scared her out of breeding her dogs too!


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## Jessiewessie99

Don't breed.


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## selzer

I dunno. Sometimes, people just get angry, think we are nuts, and do what they want to do anyway. I think that we backed up our opinions with good facts and arguments, but if she really wants her pretty dogs to make pretty puppies, that is what will happen. And when it does, the person who comes on for advice and help may not call herself Sandy, but knowing our opinions you can bet your bottom dollar that the litter will be an oops. A deliberate oops.


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## Jessiewessie99

selzer said:


> I dunno. Sometimes, people just get angry, think we are nuts, and do what they want to do anyway. I think that we backed up our opinions with good facts and arguments, but if she really wants her pretty dogs to make pretty puppies, that is what will happen. And when it does, the person who comes on for advice and help may not call herself Sandy, but knowing our opinions you can bet your bottom dollar that the litter will be an oops. A deliberate oops.


I am dealing with someone like that on another board.


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## DangerousBeauty

selzer said:


> I dunno. Sometimes, people just get angry, think we are nuts, and do what they want to do anyway. I think that we backed up our opinions with good facts and arguments, but if she really wants her pretty dogs to make pretty puppies, that is what will happen. And when it does, the person who comes on for advice and help may not call herself Sandy, but knowing our opinions you can bet your bottom dollar that the litter will be an oops. A deliberate oops.


I agree. and the sad part is that it is the pups that suffer!


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## Branca's Mom

sandy said:


> any suggestions? thanks-




Neutering for Sandy, Mike, and both dogs.....


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## Castlemaid

> Neutering for Sandy, Mike, and both dogs.....


Now, where did that come from? Sandy had an honest question, was looking for some info and suggestions. Quite honestly, unless a person is involved GSDs above and beyond having a pet, how would they know about all the issues involved in making breeding decisions? 

Perhaps she got upset because she didn't hear what she wanted, or perhaps she is off thinking about it, because there is a lot to think about when your beliefs and values get challenged.


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## Branca's Mom

She asked for suggestions. Lots of suggestions where thrown out there by different folks and this was mine. But hey, it is simply my opinion. and just like other things... we all got one. 

And I would put money on that she a ain't going to take my suggestion or anyone else's. I think that the odds are greatly in favor of: she is going to breed the dogs anyway. After all her dog has AKC paper's and "all nine yards" whatever THAT mean and furthermore she loves her dogs very much.

Just like all dogs shouldn't be bred, neither should all humans. 

_ain't ya glad I ain't out there breeding???_


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## holland

People breed their dogs and don't even come on here and ask for suggestions. And they have the right not not take suggestions that are offerred on this board.


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## Liesje

To be honest, even as someone who DOES health cert, train, and title my NON breeding dogs I still feel put off by the "your puppies will end up unwanted and dumped in the shelter" type responses. There's a million reasons to breed or not breed and to me, those types of responses take away from the point: educating the OP so she can hopefully make an informed decision.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Why is that not helpful? I understand, I think, what you are saying in terms of the facts of real breeding, not puppy producing. There are reasons that are involved that are upper level thinking skills - requiring a base of knowledge, ability to assimilate information, etc. 

But lot of people don't realize just how many pets die each year in shelters. Those are a million reasons right there. 

That's a piece of the education. Your puppy litter is 10 puppies. Three of those litter are bred only once more, 30 puppies, 3 in each of those litters...etc. So while your very own production may not end up in the shelters, there is a chance that others will. Is that a chance you want to take? Could take? Could live with? 

For those who are more emotional and not logically looking at actual, educated, true breeding, and are just producing puppies because of like, love, looks, that could be compelling. 

So I think before people start trying to sum up the art and science of breeding, which we maybe don't even know, for someone who posts once, we point out the most emotional reasons right off the bat. Just offering reasons why people might, and why it might help. 

And people can chose how they react to these things.


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## Branca's Mom

sandy said:


> (He obviosuly loves dogs but doesnt know what paperwork is, neither did I, until now)
> 
> 
> If they were to breed with my female dog, How can I get AKC or legal trace papers for my son's dog?
> 
> 
> its not about the money or about the nonsense , but now after reading this I figured that mikes dog is a GSD ,  but doesnt have OFA or AKC or any other acronym you guys use, but female has...
> 
> is there a possibility for my male GSD?
> 
> 
> It would be sad to see beautiful healthy puppies suffer just because their father didnt have actual papers.
> 
> any suggestions? thanks-


Maybe I am just in a bad mood this morning. but. this silliness just hit me wrong. How many hundreds of similar posts have I read like this over the years?? They don't come on here asking how to get started responsibly in breeding... those people get different responses. 

She or he (son) don't even know what papers were (until now) and they want to breed their dogs. 

this person wants to get legal trace papers for their dog  
and wants to breed their dog that they were not even sure was a GSD until they started reading "something??"

they realize that the puppies may suffer but seem to be willing to breed them anyway.

I doubt they really want anyones advice that goes counter to what they want to hear, they just want to do what they want to do and in the end they most certainly will..... 

Next week there will be a new one of the same ilk. hopefully I won't open that one by accident.


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## holland

She asked questions though some people don't do that even. And while that may not be the best choice It doesn't make them terrible people-and how do we know they shouldn't breed (we know them so well?) And we also don't know what she is going to do or how things will turn out-I didn't read the whole thread


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## Liesje

I guess it would make more sense if the same types of responses were posted in EVERY thread announcing a new litter, because honestly nothing is guaranteed and a dog from anyone's breeding can end up in a shelter.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Exactly. You understand that discomfort! 

But people who view themselves as protectors and students of the breed, may do more to prevent it than someone who thinks their dogs are pretty, and smart, and gosh darn it, people like them.


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## DangerousBeauty

Liesje said:


> I guess it would make more sense if the same types of responses were posted in EVERY thread announcing a new litter, because honestly nothing is guaranteed and a dog from anyone's breeding can end up in a shelter.


you are right that nothing is guaranteed but there are certain factors that can be avoided. 

I think people are just displaying their passion and concern for the breed. She asked a question and she got several consistent answers. not everyone was as nice in how they worded it but again, I think that is a passion for animals and GSDs speaking more than them speaking personally to 'sandy' (not sure if that is her or the dogs name?)


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## Liesje

I guess I just give the OP the benefit of the doubt, that she would never WANT or be OK with puppies in a shelter and that she shares the same passion for the breed, just needs more experience and a better perspective. But when we start screaming about puppies in a shelter, I think that's just more likely to turn people off to this breed, this board, and the others who supposedly share that passion for the breed, and then we've wasted an opportunity.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I would hope that no one would ever be okay with their puppies - adults - seniors - in a shelter. But perhaps they don't understand it happens. Remember the recent poster who thought her dog would be okay left in a shelter? Not all understandings are equal. 

I think people choose to be turned off by things and if those things are reality, I am not sure what can be done. 

Maybe I missed the screaming part - I agree there are ways to educate that are more effective than others, but you can't get around the facts.


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## Rott-n-GSDs

Liesje said:


> To be honest, even as someone who DOES health cert, train, and title my NON breeding dogs I still feel put off by the "your puppies will end up unwanted and dumped in the shelter" type responses. There's a million reasons to breed or not breed and to me, those types of responses take away from the point: educating the OP so she can hopefully make an informed decision.


I will never stop saying it because, IMO, it ls THE most important reason why BYBs should cease to exist.

I certainly agree that we shouldn't "scream" about it, but it needs to be said. Most BYBs don't even think about the fact that their puppies could end up dumped. Responsible breeders take every measure possible to ensure this doesn't happen. They keep tabs on their puppies and, if they're not able to, they're having too many litters.


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## Liesje

What are the "facts" though? I use to volunteer at the shelter and I cannot say that the majority of dogs there came from BYBs. Is this a fact? 

Did the OP every say anything about not being willing to take dogs back?

Personally I think BYBs should cease to exist because they are breeding dogs with unchecked genetic health and temperament problems. I wish I could say that ALL the dogs in our shelter were a result of BYBs and no one with a dog from a reputable rescue or breeder ever rehomed their dog but it's not true. Two of my three dogs were dogs that originally came from a reputable breeder and reputable local rescue and were returned and re-homed to me.


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## LaRen616

The way I see it, all dogs at animal shelters are a result of BYB.

BYB's not only breed purebred dogs but they also breed mixed breed dogs.

Wether it's a Shnoodle, Doodle, Noodle, Buggle, whatever, they are BYB's. Those dogs are not breeds, they are mutts. 

Then there are people that have a Lab/Chow mix and they love their dog so much that they want to breed him/her with another Lab/Chow, Chow or Lab. Again not an actual breed, BYB.

The majority of dogs I see at the shelters around my town are mutts and bully breeds. There are very few Purebreds at shelters in the Northern, Illinois & Kenosha/Racine Wisconsin area.

So IMO the majority of dogs at shelters are indeed the result of BYB


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

The facts are that dogs are shot, drowned, abandoned, live in situations that can be described as worse than death, and killed in shelters. Any time you produce a dog, it could end up with that outcome. 

Anytime you rescue a dog, it could as well. But you didn't produce it. Or its siblings, or allow its offspring to go out and create more. 

I am not sure why this is such an issue here? You have a good LOGICAL reason. Others posted a good EMOTIONAL reason. 

Did the OP say anything that indicated that she had a plan of any sort? 

I agree that puppy producers should "cease to exist because they are breeding dogs with unchecked genetic health and temperament problems." That is one of the list of reasons they should stop and probably (is) the first on the list. 

I wish that everyone understood the very basic parts of that - but there have been posts by puppy producers who don't even understand color. Not to mention understand the more complicated components of health and temperament. 

And so that is a valid - very - reason - as are the other reasons, including the quality (or lack) of follow up that can result in probably more dogs being left to uncertain ends, than in a case of a true breeder (not puppy producer) who cares about the breed and their dogs. 

Speaking for the purebreds. 

The shelter mutts are a whole 'nother issue, though gotta say, people around here breed non-designer (and designer) mutts on purpose. And this is the northeast. They don't give a rat's butt about temperament (she's feisty!) or health (if they even go to a vet) so it's hard to imagine talking about that with them - even though it is so important. 

To you. But if it's not important to them, doesn't matter. 

If the thought of the life cycle of their puppies doesn't matter to them, what I say isn't going to be important either. 

:shrug:

But, sometimes, it does. Either health, temperament, life cycle...or something else, so why not try?


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## LaRen616

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> The facts are that dogs are shot, drowned, abandoned, live in situations that can be described as worse than death, and killed in shelters. Any time you produce a dog, it could end up with that outcome.
> 
> Anytime you rescue a dog, it could as well. But you didn't produce it. Or its siblings, or allow its offspring to go out and create more.
> 
> I am not sure why this is such an issue here? You have a good LOGICAL reason. Others posted a good EMOTIONAL reason.
> 
> Did the OP say anything that indicated that she had a plan of any sort?
> 
> I agree that puppy producers should "cease to exist because they are breeding dogs with unchecked genetic health and temperament problems." That is one of the list of reasons they should stop and probably (is) the first on the list.
> 
> I wish that everyone understood the very basic parts of that - but there have been posts by puppy producers who don't even understand color. Not to mention understand the more complicated components of health and temperament.
> 
> And so that is a valid - very - reason - as are the other reasons, including the quality (or lack) of follow up that can result in probably more dogs being left to uncertain ends, than in a case of a true breeder (not puppy producer) who cares about the breed and their dogs.
> 
> Speaking for the purebreds.
> 
> The shelter mutts are a whole 'nother issue, though gotta say, people around here breed non-designer (and designer) mutts on purpose. And this is the northeast. They don't give a rat's butt about temperament (she's feisty!) or health (if they even go to a vet) so it's hard to imagine talking about that with them - even though it is so important.
> 
> To you. But if it's not important to them, doesn't matter.
> 
> If the thought of the life cycle of their puppies doesn't matter to them, what I say isn't going to be important either.
> 
> :shrug:
> 
> But, sometimes, it does. Either health, temperament, life cycle...or something else, so why not try?


 
We posted at the same time, funny how we both brought up mutts and designer dogs


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## holland

I don't think that there is a reason not to try. But I think to at least try to educate people in a respectful way. I don't know a lot about shelters and what dogs end up in shelter so I don't think that there is anyway to know that they are BYB


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## LaRen616

I got my 2 Lab/Rott/Chow/Border Collie pups from a BYB, they loved their female Lab/Border Collie mix and wanted a puppy from her. Their neighbor down the street had a Chow/Rott male and they wanted a puppy from him so both neighbors got their dogs together resulting in 8 puppies. They each kept one, I took 2 of them, 2 others went to surrounding neighbors and the other 2 went to the shelter.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

I think that would be a good study - but no money to hire people to do it I am sure - and shelter staff, if they could trace back a dog's owner timewise...well, they just don't. 

Like I said, I am not sure if people were disrespectful because I was reading the last couple of posts only, and we can't post to all people, all the time - every post we post has the chance of upsetting someone, somehow. 

Of course we greatly increase the chances of that by being nasty!


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## Liesje

You are preaching to the choir. I've done rescue work for rescues, the animal shelter, I own four pets from rescue.

My response is not really this thread specifically, just the pattern I see anytime a new person asks the same sort of question. To be honest there are other people that seem to have many friends here whose breeding practices I disagree with, but somehow they don't illicit the same sort of responses about litters of puppies being dumped at the shelter? I'm not saying I disagree or am removed from this reality, I just think that if our goal is to EDUCATE people, I don't think the emotional responses are really the way to go about it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Oh, I have those responses. You just can't see them! 

True Colors Personality Test by Mary Miscisin Kind of a Meyers-Briggs type thing. For some people they only respond to emotion (the blues), for some, they only respond to logic (the greens), for some, they have to see it/do it (oranges), and for some, only need to be told there is a right and wrong and will adjust (golds). So all types of responses are needed, really. Just because you respond to the logic - which I do too - doesn't mean all people do. 

I would love to have the money and people who know research enough to get to what would work to stop people from randomly producing puppies.


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## Liesje

I think it takes education - educating people NOT to breed them AND educating buyers NOT to buy poorly bred puppies.


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## Dainerra

I didn't have any problem until the statement that the OP needed to be spayed as well. That goes beyond an emotional response and is just an attack on the individual.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Liesje said:


> I think it takes education - educating people NOT to breed them AND educating buyers NOT to buy poorly bred puppies.


Agree!


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## Branca's Mom

Dainerra said:


> I didn't have any problem until the statement that the OP needed to be spayed as well. That goes beyond an emotional response and is just an attack on the individual.


What,

have you no sense of humor... ??


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## Emoore

LaRen616 said:


> The way I see it, all dogs at animal shelters are a result of BYB.


Really? Last month our rescue pulled an imported GSD with pink papers from the shelter. His owner had dumped him along with his pedigree and import documents. Even dogs from the best breeders can end up in a shelter. Granted, they're not as likely to.


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## Dainerra

hehe believe me, I know where you are coming from.  I've more than once written an entire post and then deleted it. Sometimes, I've hit send anyway.

I tend to write the first one to get all the emotion out "were you always this stupid or did you take lessons???" then delete that and write a less emotional one.

ETA: I've been working as a moderator on another group and you can only answer the same question a couple hundred times before you start hating seeing that "you've got mail" light flashing


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## Branca's Mom

Liesje said:


> I think it takes education - educating people NOT to breed them AND educating buyers NOT to buy poorly bred puppies.



I think the answer lays or is that lies? in educating the buyers. 

The people who want to breed for no reason other than they want a little fluffy jr or cause they want to make a quick buck are going to do it regardless. I would *like* to believe that they can be educated out of it but I would *like* to believe in world peace also.

However, I am just too old, grumpy and cynical to believe either is possible anymore.


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## holland

I have a sense of humor but I didn't see it there. And even the breeders on this board who breed well and I don't disagree with their practices it has become like a club and they all say the same thing Its like canned responses some times


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## DangerousBeauty

Emoore said:


> Really? Last month our rescue pulled an imported GSD with pink papers from the shelter. His owner had dumped him along with his pedigree and import documents. Even dogs from the best breeders can end up in a shelter. Granted, they're not as likely to.


I agree. I had a full blood chow chow with papers and all I rescued when she was only 9 months old! Person found out she had demadex and that they couldn't breed her which was the only reason the bought her. They left her outside for the first 6 months of her life. She was miserable when I got her. Hardly any fur and itchy. I worked for a vet at the time and took her to work with me daily. Got her fully recovered. She was a wonderful dog. I trained an socialized her and she turned out amazing. I know that there are many many dogs that don't have that nice of an outcome though. 
Claudia


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## Branca's Mom

Emoore said:


> Really? Last month our rescue pulled an imported GSD with pink papers from the shelter. His owner had dumped him along with his pedigree and import documents. Even dogs from the best breeders can end up in a shelter. Granted, they're not as likely to.


But, the question for you here is: what did the breeder do when told that their dog was in the shelter?? I think that shelters should be free to post when breeders refuse to own up to their responsibility IF one of their dogs ends up in a shelter. 

If they showed concern and arranged to take the dog back then I can't say anything negative about the breeder, at least they tried. You as a breeder might do your absolute best to see a dog gets into a good home but lets be honest... you can't really control what happens to a dog once you sell it.


**** I see now this was an import you are referring to ****


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Agree with that Tammy - same with rescues - returns. It happens, bad things, and how we as either rescue or breeder reacts is what is important.

ETA - eeeeeeeee! Chow face! Love that!


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## selzer

dogs are not in shelters because of BYBs.

Dogs are in shelters because of irresponsible owners.

People breeding pretty dogs without papers or health screenings, are going to be reaching the bottom of the barrel when looking for owners. 

BYBs are all reaching into the bottom of the barrel when looking for owners.

Everybody thinks that they have enough people who want a dog out of their dogs that they will not have to worry about finding owners. Finding good owners is the only way we can try to ensure that our dogs do not land in shelters or worse. Yes, yes we can agree to take them back at any point in their lives. But we have NO control over the lives of these people.

One person gets the dog, moves 2000 miles away and takes the dog. Then he has to move again and doesn't want to bother with the dog. Will he drive 2000 miles back to bring him back? Will he ship him? Will he even call and try to get us to come and get him? No, he will drop him in a shelter.

Another person gets a dog and tells us at our six month call that he is starting classes next week. at eighteen months, he has never bothered to train the dog and now is embarrassed and instead of calling and asking for help, or asking us to take the dog back, he gives it to a buddy or drops it off in a shelter.

The only way to get buyers who know what they are doing is to cross all the t's and dot all the i's. Then you have a 50/50 shot that they will follow the contract and call you if they need to rehome the dog.


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## DangerousBeauty

I think there are different types of bybs. There are plenty of people who do not mind and some that even prefer a mixed breed. I think the problem lies when you are trying to get papers and sell the puppies. In my mind that is the only reason they would want the papers. Anyone can (shouldn't but can) have a litter of dogs. What other reason would they have to want papers but to sell or continue breeding?


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## Emoore

DangerousBeauty said:


> What other reason would they have to want papers but to sell or continue breeding?


So that when people say, "Are you sure that floppy-eared white/black/sable dog is a German Shepherd?" You can say, "Yes and here are his papers."  Sometimes I wish I had papers on my flop-eared rescue just to prove I'm not delusional and he is, in fact, a GSD.


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## Jessiewessie99

Dogs in shelters and rescues come from all different backgrounds(and that includes BYBs) Has anyone seen that Pedigree dog food commercial?(Don't attack me because of pedigree dog food, I don't feed my dogs that. Just talking about the commercial)

Well here is the commercial:


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## Lauri & The Gang

DangerousBeauty said:


> What other reason would they have to want papers but to sell or continue breeding?


Papers (from legitimate kennel clubs) simply prove that a dog is purebred and shows the lineage.

They do NOT prove the dog is breed worthy, healthy, temperamentally sound, etc.


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## onyx'girl

In the past month I've talked with different people who say they want to breed their dog. So they come out to the club to see about getting titles or have been training for some time. I don't say anything negative or judgemental to them, but cringe inside, as I know they will probably breed in the future, and maybe, hopefully their pups will be fine. Most of them all will, or do have the health and hip tests done, but do they really need to add to the population? 
I think many people will breed their dogs because they feel they can make $. The mindset is so very different if you are out in the world vs this board and the opinions here.


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## DangerousBeauty

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Papers (from legitimate kennel clubs) simply prove that a dog is purebred and shows the lineage.
> 
> They do NOT prove the dog is breed worthy, healthy, temperamentally sound, etc.


That is my point. They would want the papers just so they could charge a person for a puppy. Not preserve and serve the breed.


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## MaggieRoseLee

LaRen616 said:


> I got my 2 Lab/Rott/Chow/Border Collie pups from a BYB, *they loved their female Lab/Border Collie mix and wanted a puppy from her.* Their neighbor down the street had a Chow/Rott male and they wanted a puppy from him so both neighbors got their dogs together resulting in 8 puppies. They each kept one, I took 2 of them, 2 others went to surrounding neighbors and the *other 2 went to the shelter*.


This is EXACTLY many of our main issue w/BYB's. They are adding to the problem of overpopulation leading to the killing of millions of dogs each year in the USA.

Because they wanted one puppy, at least 2 went to a shelter (and some of the others maybe went later, or THEIR puppies in a few years) and were killed. Not a good ratio of live/kill to me.


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## bunchoberrys

Too bad it couldn't be that the only way that you can get AKC recognition is that your pet has to have titles, certificates, etc. You have to prove that your dog is worthy of AKC recognition. I believe that would definately seperate the BYB from the true breeders. I'm sure it will never happen, but its nice dream............


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## selzer

onyx'girl, 

so you are concerned with people getting their dogs titled, who have hip and health screenings on them, and are wanting to breed?

Just because of the overpopulation? 

I will tell you, that the BYBs are not going to stop breeding. And puppy mills are not going stop pumping them out. Supply and demand, they will supply as many dogs as they sell and more. 

So the only people who may be moved to reconsider and NOT breed their dogs are those that will go the whole nine yards with them. 

If all of these people, those willing to go through the pain and joy of whelping and raising a litter, will health screen, will try to make the best breeding choices with respect to structure and blood lines of the dam and propective sires, will train and trial their dogs, decide they should not because there are GSDs in shelters somewhere, well, what will this do to the breed in the end?

There are not that many people really making the effort to do it right. But if these people simply quit, what is left, BYBs and puppy mills. 

So you would rather leave the breed in the hands of the puppy mills and BYBs? 

You can say leave it to experienced breeders or the pros. But the experienced breeders and big names are going to die out, they retire or die and it is handed down to daughters and sons, daughters in law, sons in law, and in many cases, they have neither the funds, nor the contacts, nor the committment to do it right. 

We need new blood. We need people who will go out and train and trial their dogs before breeding. We need people whose passion is the breed. This is not something to cringe at, not unless the dogs are in some way lacking. Without people committed to the breed, the breed is left to the scoundrels. 

I want to continue to be able to have GSDs for many years. I support people who truly want to learn and go about things properly.


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## onyx'girl

Of course I think the ones that are coming to the club would be better than the BYB's but not sure that their(not all, but a few) goals are motivated by anything other than money or ego. These are not all GSD's by the way, some are other breeds...


> There are not that many people really making the effort to do it right.


I agree, and this is where my post came from.
There are enough great breeders out there, and if the dog shows _exception_ on the field then by all means they should reproduce, it is the ones that casually mention they want to breed their dogs that tend to get my hackles up.
I say this because I have a dog with a temperament and health that has to be managed(BYB), and another(rescue) who is supposed AKC registered, she is a mess conformation-wise. 
We _do_ need what you posted above, but we also _don't_ need more of what has found their way to shelters or rescue thru no fault of their own.


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## Zoeys mom

As someone who has seen first hand what it costs to whelp a litter not to mention all the health testing, training, and vet bills before pregnancy even occurs I find it hard to believe there is a wealth of money in breeding. Say you are a true BYB- dogs have no papers, no training, no titles, and no health testing is done. Maybe you don't even have the mom seen during her pregnancy, but the cost of the shots, supplies, countless hours cleaning, and effort that goes into it will still leave your pockets not so full- not to mention your not going to be able to sell your pups for much more than $300-$700 if your lucky.

Then look at what you would call a pro breeder. Dam and Sire have been trained and titled in a sport or sports their whole life. Both are health tested properly, OFA certified, tested for genetics, seen before pregnancy to ensure the Dam is healthy, seen during pregnancy to ensure things are going well, seen after delivery to ensure no placentas are still present and bleeding is normal, then pups are health checked, given shots, supplies, time, and effort still equal to not so full pockets in the end.

My point is I at least think most people breed because they love the breed, their curious about having a litter, they adore cute little puppies, and they just want to understand the experience. I agree putting in the effort to ensure you are breeding pups to strengthen the overall breed is important, but I haven't heard anyone talk about how important rearing these A-1 pups is. You produce a high drive dog meant for work that needs stimulation and training or unfortunately will become a restless bored destructive dog who may be dangerous if not handled properly. The forever home to me is actually more important or at least equally as important as the quality of the initial breeding.

People are going to breed regardless, shelters will always be overflowing, and not every home the pups are sold to are going to be a BYB's or pro breeders pups forever home. A reputable breeder can only do so much to ensure their pups are going to the best home and the truth is BYB or pro there are already enough of every breed of dog out there.


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## Liesje

DangerousBeauty said:


> I think there are different types of bybs. There are plenty of people who do not mind and some that even prefer a mixed breed. I think the problem lies when you are trying to get papers and sell the puppies. In my mind that is the only reason they would want the papers. Anyone can (shouldn't but can) have a litter of dogs. What other reason would they have to want papers but to sell or continue breeding?


Unfortunately I think a lot of people assume that papers/registration imply a higher quality. We know that's not true but a lot of people don't. They aren't trying to rip people off or just make money off puppies but they don't understand that a registration is just that, a registration. It is not a title a dog had to earn or do anything to prove.


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## selzer

While I agree with much of your post, if the pros stop breeding, the puppy mills and bybs will breed more as the demand temporarily increases. 

No there is not a ton of money in breeding. Maybe you can pay for dog food and vet care at the end of the day. Maybe not. If you have something that sets you apart, excellent drive, super acheivements, maybe you can sell your pups for a greater fee and pull ahead. Maybe you can also pay for the training, titling, gasoline for all those shows, and make a dent in paying on the bill for your initial investment. 

For people who just want to experience having puppies, maybe it would be good to hook them up with a rescue that needs fosters for in whelp females. 

For people who believe their dam needs to have pups to get the proper maternal disposition, settle down, gain some weight, or whatever be fulfilled, these people are a hard sell because this thought is so ingrained in people it is hard to dispel.


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## sagelfn

selzer said:


> For people who believe their dam needs to have pups to get the proper maternal disposition, settle down, gain some weight, or whatever be fulfilled, these people are a hard sell because this thought is so ingrained in people it is hard to dispel.


I've heard that one so many times. Same for males too


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## Zoeys mom

Selzer I agree with you just trying to explain people aren't just breeding for money; and those that do are those who will have 1-2 litters at most and walk away. It has already been mentioned the GSD's of today are a far cry from their predecessors- so who's to blame? The BYB's or the pros? Most would say the BYB's, but I say the so called pros. A person buying from a BYB IMO is less likely to title and fully train their dog- those that are spending mucho dollars for a well bred pup are more likely to be doing so with the intention of showing, working, or training the dog in a sport. These are the dogs we look at for standards, and yet these are the dogs that are slowly changing the breed.

So is a pro someone who trains, titles, shows, and works their dog and then breeds once they know these dogs can perform? Most would say yes, but again I'm left wondering. This is more me thinking out loud (or in print) right now than me passing any judgments btw If what is considered good performance pails in comparison to the GSD's of the past how many real pro breeders are there? Again me just thinking. And another random thought what is more important anyway- structure, health, appearance, drive, temperament, or ability to title? I know some go hand and hand, but I wonder where the average breeder is putting their emphasis? 

In a perfect world only those with a vast knowledge of the species having highly trained and well performing titled dogs should breed so long as those dogs have an impeccable temperament as well IMO; but the world is not perfect


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## Dainerra

sure, most of the BYBs are breeding because "Fluffy is so cute and all my friends want one of her babies." But, there IS money in it for them. These numbers are the usual amount they so.

You can get a GSD pup in the papers for $250, so there is their initial expense. Puppy shots, $100, if Mom even gets them. Ol' Roy Dog Food, $20 bag x 3 a month. 

At 1 year old, mom gets required rabies shot - $10 at farmer's clinic.
Stud Fee - 1 puppy

Food for mom - still Ol Roy, but say she's eating more and now they buy 4 a month.
Mom births 6 pups. Minus 1 for stud fee, still leave 5
1 pup dies, leave 4

Puppies start to wean, so add 1 bag of Ol Roy puppy, $10.
Start looking for new homes - free ad in paper. phone calls/emails to put them on Radio trading program

buy 2nd bag of Puppy Food, $20 (bigger bag). Pups sell for $200 each. (It's usually males $200, females $250, so lets assume they have bad luck and it's all boys or the stud owner took the only girl). That's $800, almost a months pay for a lot of the people around here.

If you take out the $$ they pay just for Mom's regular care, they've spent an extra $100 or less. That gives them $700. S
adly, many BYBs do it for the money and even worse find out that, even with occasional pups that they can't sell, they are going to make a profit. Pups that don't sell through the paper are taken to the Wal-Mart parking lot and sold out of the back of the truck. Those that still don't sell are dumped, sometimes at the shelter sometimes just on an empty back road.


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## bianca

I have had so many people I've met in the street or dog park ask me if I am going to breed Molly .....What the????? My pup is not a shining example of the breed...floppy ears and all (she is PB) but when I say this and the fact that I have no desire to breed (she is spayed) as there are too many unwanted dogs already. I get told "but you could make some good money of that". I cringe to admit it, but my partner wanted me not to spay her so she could have a litter. Was NEVER going to happen but my point is that there ARE so many people who think it's a quick dollar. SAD.


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## Dawn

Please do not breed your dog ....I work in a animal shelter and see so many GSD's come in. 
I rescued my Raven from the shelter and right now we have a beautiful long coat black shepherd that is only 8 months old. He was bought as a puppy,tied out side to a pole and never trained. Now we have a 65lb dog that is out of control. We have volunteers training him and trying so hard to find a rescue for him but there are more GSD's then rescues out there. Please go to the rescue site on this forum and look at the many GSD,s that need homes from shelters. It will break your heart.
Please listen to all the reasons given above, the people here know what they are talking about!


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## Dainerra

oh, and those prices are based on the average BYB price for GSDs. If they can add "champion bloodlines" to the ad, prices go to $500 or so. If they are breeding small dogs, the expenses are roughly the same, but pups sell for $700+, sometimes over $1000 (teacup yorkies and chis)


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## DangerousBeauty

Dainerra said:


> oh, and those prices are based on the average BYB price for GSDs. If they can add "champion bloodlines" to the ad, prices go to $500 or so. If they are breeding small dogs, the expenses are roughly the same, but pups sell for $700+, sometimes over $1000 (teacup yorkies and chis)


we had a woman that use to come in the vet office that would mix small breeds and try to sell them. We called her the '****-a-poodle-doodle lady'.


*um...stared out word is another name for a rooster?


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## PupperLove

Dainerra said:


> sure, most of the BYBs are breeding because "Fluffy is so cute and all my friends want one of her babies." But, there IS money in it for them. These numbers are the usual amount they so.
> 
> You can get a GSD pup in the papers for $250, so there is their initial expense. Puppy shots, $100, if Mom even gets them. Ol' Roy Dog Food, $20 bag x 3 a month.
> 
> At 1 year old, mom gets required rabies shot - $10 at farmer's clinic.
> Stud Fee - 1 puppy
> 
> Food for mom - still Ol Roy, but say she's eating more and now they buy 4 a month.
> Mom births 6 pups. Minus 1 for stud fee, still leave 5
> 1 pup dies, leave 4
> 
> Puppies start to wean, so add 1 bag of Ol Roy puppy, $10.
> Start looking for new homes - free ad in paper. phone calls/emails to put them on Radio trading program
> 
> buy 2nd bag of Puppy Food, $20 (bigger bag). Pups sell for $200 each. (It's usually males $200, females $250, so lets assume they have bad luck and it's all boys or the stud owner took the only girl). That's $800, almost a months pay for a lot of the people around here.
> 
> If you take out the $$ they pay just for Mom's regular care, they've spent an extra $100 or less. That gives them $700. S
> adly, many BYBs do it for the money and even worse find out that, even with occasional pups that they can't sell, they are going to make a profit. Pups that don't sell through the paper are taken to the Wal-Mart parking lot and sold out of the back of the truck. Those that still don't sell are dumped, sometimes at the shelter sometimes just on an empty back road.


This is all so true, and so sad.  . If people make so much off of a litter and put in so little, it is completley sad but it happens so often. I feel that if a breeder invests what they should into breeding, they usually should come out about even, probably not ever much ahead money wise. I would LOVE to breed SOMEDAY....but I want to do it RIGHT. That has always been a dream of mine ever since I was a little kid, to raise dogs and puppies and compete in shows. This may sound silly, but I see breeding as a form of art, something one should work hard at and do all they can to PERFECT it (the breed). It will take a LONG time to get where you are headed with lots of practice (practice meaning: research, time and money invested BEFORE jumping into it. As well as resources like mentors, clubs, papers, health certs, etc.)


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## sitstay

In the many years that I was in a shelter working, both as a volunteer and as a paid employee, it was my policy to contact every breeder of record when a dog came in with papers. I might not have had the time to do it during my work day, but I sure made time privately to do it. 

Not because I wanted to harass anyone, or make them feel bad. But because A) I honestly believe that breeders of every type should be informed of what is happening to their puppies (and I use the term "puppy" here to mean any dog of any age, not necessarily a youngster), and B) it was my informal way of keeping track of problematic breeders in my area.

Of all the people I contacted, and I contacted many over the years, only ONE took back a dog she bred. She bred GSD American showlines here in Boise and never hesitated to take the 5 year old male back. Huge kudos to Mona Allison of Gem Crest Kennels!

She was one of the few hobby or commercial breeders I contacted. All the others told me the same story about "not being a breeder", they had a pet purebred and had been told that they could make back the purchase price by buying a female, or they had been stopped by some guy in the park that had a dog of the same breed who was "blown away" by how gorgeous/big/sweet their dog was and suggested breeding their dogs. The reasoning is endless, but the common themes were a lack of education about what it means to have a purebred dog with papers, and being inexperienced enough to think they were doing the right thing because they loved their own dog and had had a positive experience with that one dog.

The vast majority of these people only bred a few litters before giving the dog away, or having some pregnancy complications and losing the dog, or having the dog run away, or having the dog get hit by a car. They were totally unprepared to take back a dog they had bred, and didn't think they should have to because they "were not breeders", they were just providing a few pups every year or two for friends, co-workers and family members. And they went to great homes...until the puppy got big and knocked the kids over, or until the neighbors complained about the barking, or until divorce happened, or death or illness. Or until a family had to move, or had a new baby. The puppy that came into the home because it was a convenient purchase from a neighbor, or a relative or a co-worker, is no longer so convenient. 

These are the vast majority of the people I contacted over a six year+ period. Out of the thousands of dogs that came into the shelter every one of those years, I would say that roughly 40-45% were purebred and of those, maybe 30% had papers with them (if there were papers on the dog and it was an owner surrender, the person turning the dog over most often turned over the papers also because they felt like it helped prove their dogs worth and would save the dog from euthanasia).

Shelters and rescues don't deal with a huge log jam of puppies from BYB (or pet breeders, if you want to call them that). In most areas of this country, puppies of any type (purebred or mix-breed) are quickly adopted. This quick turn around causes many people to think that there is no over production problem, since there is such a high demand for puppies in shelters and rescues. 

But the adolescent dogs that DO cause a log jam in rescues and shelters are coming from somewhere. At one point they were puppies being produced for whatever reason, and being placed in homes using whatever criteria. These puppies are the supply part of the over population issue, since the pups are supplying the numbers of adolescent dogs that clog the system. The economic crash has tweaked this picture a little, in that shelters and rescues are seeing more seniors that have lost their long-time homes because of a job loss or a foreclosure. But those seniors are in addition to the countless adolescent dogs that have lost their convenience. 

I have talked with these people many, many times. They had no intention of producing bodies for the local landfill (which is where many of the euthanized animals end up in this country), but they don't see that end as their fault because they are not real breeders, and they did right by the pups when they had them in that they were fed and vetted fully before going to their new homes.
Sheilah


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## Castlemaid

Sheila (sit,stay), THANK YOU for that awesome post!!! It should be made a sticky in the breeder section!


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## Jessiewessie99

I get asked every now and then about whether or not I will breed Molly & Tanner. I got asked twice by the same guy if I would breed Molly to his GSD. The dog was gorgeous, but no.


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## Chicagocanine

Rott-n-GSDs said:


> A very good point. Bitches can and do die during whelping. Are you ready to risk yours? Emergency c-sections are also not uncommon... and expensive (thousands of dollars).


Not just whelping... Bianca's previous owners both her as a breeding prospect, and she was bred but instead of getting pregnant she got pyometra. She could have died. She had to have an emergency spay (which is why I was ultimately able to adopt her; they wanted her to go to a 'pet' home.)


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## Emoore

Nothing like resurrecting a 4-month old thread.


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## Chicagocanine

Oops sorry, it was pretty close to the top of Page 1 so I thought it must be a recent thread.


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## Emoore

Yeah, I think a spammer came in and posted a bunch of ads on some really old threads. The mods have cleaned up the spam but the old threads are on top again.


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## Castlemaid

Emoore said:


> Nothing like resurrecting a 4-month old thread.


Still, some very good info and lots of food for thought in this thread - doesn't hurt to get all the new people to see it and learn from it.


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