# Jogging with my puppy



## Yiorgo1026 (Oct 6, 2010)

Hey! I have a 4 1/2 month old GSD, and i was wondering if it's to soon to start jogging with her? I've tried jogging short distances just to see how she reacts, and she seems to like it. I was wondering if it's ok to up the distance? Im pretty sure she will be able to keep up, she's faster then me lol, however i heard it might be bad for her joints. Is this true?


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## LunoLUV (Aug 11, 2010)

I was wondering this too. I have read a lot of information and it all said that you shouldn't do any running until at least one year of age. But Luno is almost
6 months old and goes crazy!!! He runs non stop in the backyard or at the dog park and this is usually at full speed! So why cant he run with me not like 5 miles a day yet, just little here and there to work him up to it?


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

What do you consider a short distance? I think you should take it easy with her just because she's so young and developing her little body


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## Yiorgo1026 (Oct 6, 2010)

By short distance i mean about 1/2 mile or so. I was hoping to go up to about a 1 to 1 1/2 miles or so. I don't jog much either i was hoping to build our stamina together.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Your puppy is still growing -- the growth plates don't close until 18 months or so. The repeated pounding from continuous jogging isn;t good for the joints. When your pup runs in the yard they are in control of both speed and duration and can stop at any time.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I think your pup is a little young for jogging on pavement. Since you're in Miami why not try the sand??


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

yiorgo and luno,

im DYING to start jogging with my pup, but have not yet. he's 10 months old,and I'm waiting until he' 18 months. 

I live in Chicago so i would have to jog on the sidewalk.

I personally think if you had grass /sand etc you could do a short (1/2 mile) with them, but not on roads/sidewalks.

at 18 months the growth plates will close up and the fun can begin...sucks waiting. i know


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## Deuce (Oct 14, 2010)

Yeah, everyone seems to agree with what I was thinking. I'd let her just grown for now. She can be a wonderful jogging pal a little while down the road


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## LunoLUV (Aug 11, 2010)

Seems as though the best thing for him now is to leave running to the pups on there own at the dog park. The suggestions everyone is making is pretty much what I was ready when I was looking into it. I just figured he loves to run so much all the time that we could enjoy it together.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Nonsense. If your puppy is able and willing, go for it. Be sure to build up to distance and speed and do not push him. Unless your puppy is over angulated or structurally unsound, there is absolutely no reason not to give him however much exercise he wants.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Leashed running of pavement may cause issues from the hard surface as well as repetitive nature.

As far as distance, my pups can go miles by that age. But that was OFF leash. So they would run full blast, walk, sit, lay in a puddle, RUN!!!!!!!!!! lay in another puddle, etc.

Finding other dogs they can play with off leash is great too.

Here's what is fine..


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## Yiorgo1026 (Oct 6, 2010)

Thanks for all the great advice, i think i will keep it safe and just wait until she's a little older. Better safe than sorry. Maybe i'll take her to the beach every once an a while to start her off.


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## jacksonpuppers (Jul 13, 2009)

My dog is just now 2 years old and I have just started to do 1-2 miles a day with him on pavement. my trainer told me to wait until 18 months.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Waiting is so silly and for no reason. Your puppy needs more exercise than he ever will as an adult and you aren't giving it to him. I don't get it. I guess people like their puppies bouncing off the walls with excess energy.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Elaine said:


> Waiting is so silly and for no reason. Your puppy needs more exercise than he ever will as an adult and you aren't giving it to him. I don't get it. I guess people like their puppies bouncing off the walls with excess energy.


I would ABSOLUTELY be exercising the pup. And miles a day. It's not the distance or exercise in general that's the issue.

It's the KIND of exercising. Repetitive and high impact (pavement) are to be avoided when our puppies are still growing.

But there are tons of OTHER exercising ways to get our dogs worn out. Swimming, anything off leash in open areas, playing with other dogs...


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes, but I don't live in the land of milk and honey where the bunnies and squirrels play all day. I, and most other people, do not have access to safe open areas - and most people don't have the control to let their dogs run free- where they can get that sort of exercise. I live in MN, the land of 10,000 lakes, and most of us do not have access to a swimming area for the dogs. I live in the real world where the only way to exercise your dog is to take him running or biking and it does not in any way hurt them so long as they aren't structurally unsound or overangulated. This is a trotting breed so there's very little up and down movement and it's not high impact like it would be for people, plus they have big squishy feet so they come with their own tennis shoes.

By telling people they can't do this with their pups just gives them another excuse not to exercise their pups when they need it the most and I find it very irresponsible advice.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> By telling people they can't do this with their pups just gives them another excuse not to exercise their pups when they need it the most and I find it very irresponsible advice.


And I feel it is irresponsible to encourage people to use forced exercise on a young dog.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Forced exercise?!!!!! Are you kidding me?!!!! I don't see any of these pups not wanting to go. The only one being forced might be the owner as you about have to hit people over the head to get them moving.


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## liv (Sep 1, 2010)

By forced exercise, people are referring to when the puppy isn't the one in control of the activity. The fact that the puppies are more than willing to go is actually part of the problem - they will go until they drop, so we have to be the ones that set limits for them. If someone chooses to run with a puppy, I would make sure that the dog is running on grass, or sand - yes, they are a trotting breed, but nature didn't accommodate for concrete - natural surfaces have give to them. 

I don't have any off leash parks close by (I would have to drive at least 30 mins), not that I am a huge fan of them anyway, and while I do have a decent back yard that we run/play in, I spend a lot of time in local (kid) parks with Kokoda on a long line (since kids don't appear to use them anymore) - we can run around, we play fetch, use the flirt pole...whatever it takes to wear her out. She has just hit 18 months, and I am very excited to start riding bike with her, although we're heading into winter, so it will be 6 months before I can do it.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Again, nonsense. I have repeatedly said that you have to pace your dog because they won't do it and you have to build up to distance and speed. Pups do quickly slow down when they begin to get tired so where's the forcing? 

Natural surfaces would be great in an ideal world, but I don't live in one and neither do most people. If people can't go out the front door and go in order to exercise their dog, most won't do it at all and exercising on the so called evil hard surfaces is much better than getting none at all.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

Just my take on the question asked:

At 18 months old, I have JUST STARTED jogging and biking with my "puppy".

Before this time we played ball off leash, did A LOT of hiking and swimming, I allowed him to play with other dogs, took classes (obedience, agility and we train in Schutzhund) and did other things that would not harm his growing joints.

Even still at 18 months old, I take it slow. We do short stints of biking/jogging and we will add distance/pace every few weeks so that he is not overwhelmed physcially (still a growing boy). If it was up to him he would GO GO GO but I want to ensure that his body is not pushed before it is ready. Even with prelims done to ensure he is physcially able I still worry about injuries and future problems, as all dogs owners should - especially GSD's.

JMO.


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Just because you waited for no good reason, doesn't mean that others should. Early exercise builds denser bone, strong muscles and heart, and more lung capacity. It will NOT damage joints and can NOT cause hip dysplasia. A pup with poor structure or bad hips will come up sore and you can begin to manage him at an earlier age.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I didn't say anyone else should Elaine. Not sure where the hostility is coming from.. but if you read my post I did say that is what *I* did and that it was just *MY* opinion.

It CAN damage joints and no where did I say it would cause HD but if the dog has mild HD it can irritate it and make the HD become more aggressive earlier. 

I also mentioned some of the OTHER excerise routines we partook in. Such as agility (foundation work), schutzhund, obedience classes, hiking, swimming, playing ball and with others... not sure where I said, "DON'T EXCERISE"? Of course you need to excerise dogs, especially this breed... no one is saying NOT to excerise they are saying make sure you are doing so in a non-abrassive way so that you can ensure a healthy dog (both now and in the future).


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Elaine,

As you have probably noticed you are the only one thinking it is ok to jog a puppy for miles before 18 months.

So, I am wondering. How do you base your opinion? years of raising dogs? your vet? etc...

I go based on what I've read online, heard from my vet, and heard from other GSD owners. It seems 99% of us have heard/believe it is not good to jog them before 18 months....sooo who taught you its ok?

thx


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

There is no logical reason to not run your puppy. If you would even think about it for a moment, you would see it makes no sense. I have been doing the dog thing since the stone age and have never seen a problem from it from my dogs or any of the other dogs around me. This not exercising your pup is a relatively new thing and it makes me crazy. It's sort of the internet myth that has taken on a life of its own like the one where you shouldn't feed raw and kibble in the same meal. It's just an excuse not to get your butt up off the couch and exercise your pup and was most likely started by breeders of over angulated and unsound dogs to excuse their poor breeding.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Elaine said:


> It's just an excuse not to get your butt up off the couch and exercise your pup and was most likely started by breeders of over angulated and unsound dogs to excuse their poor breeding.


Except that everyone here is saying that you do have to get up and exercise your puppy and you need to do it a lot. They are just saying that running your puppy on pavement and for long distances is not in the best interest of his/her growing joints and bones. 

If you would read what's written and think about it, there's no harm in suggesting to wait until the dog's skeleton is matured to put pressure on it. Would you play around with a baby's skull before it's fully formed and hardened?


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## BadLieutenant (May 9, 2010)

I agree with you elaine......been running with my present GSD since 7 months old. Cant even imagine not running with her...she loves it....even bike with her at least twice a week and sometimes everyday. I have heard the same people badmouth vets over recommending certain foods but believe every word from the same vets mouth about running with GSD's.....now wonder you read so many posts about bad behavior in peoples dogs on this forum...no one runs them.....also love your post about the land of squirrells and bunnies


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## jakeandrenee (Apr 30, 2010)

Let me please ask this, are you jogging on trails? I am also a newbie trying to do thing right by my puppy......everything says avoid the pavement??????????????????


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I run on pavement because that's what I've got. When I run down by the lakes, I will run on the dirt running path. Given a choice between pavement and dirt, I will take dirt every time, but I have no issue with pavement otherwise. I've never had a problem with either way and most people don't run far enough or often enough for there to be a problem on pavement. The day someone shows me some actual evidence that running a pup or adult dog on pavement will cause actual long term physical damage, I will change my tune.

You can not give a high energy dog enough exercise without taking him running on a regular basis. All that is ever told to people here is you can only exercise a puppy in the utopian world of rolling dirt trails where the sun always shines and the bunnies and squirrels play happily together and if you don't have that, you are sunk because you can't take them out on the - gasp! - pavement for some proper exercise. Playing ball in the back yard doesn't do nearly enough either.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

chicagojosh said:


> Elaine,
> 
> As you have probably noticed you are the only one thinking it is ok to jog a puppy for miles before 18 months.
> 
> ...


I personally hate it when members request credentials from a member they disagree with. It's like they're trying to intimidate the other member.

Sometimes it's that *one* person with the different opinion who turns out to be the one who is right. 

Elaine has owned and trained dogs for YEARS! She also fosters dogs. Agree with her or disagree that's you're choice but I can guarantee you that she does not base her opinions on all the BS that is out there on the internet. 

I think a better way to disagree with a person with years of experience would be to present with some facts or actual studies on the subject (not just hearsay). Does anyone know if there is anything out there on this topic? Has anyone done what Elaine recommends and found that it has caused the problems others say it will cause? I'll bet you Elaine has a few dogs she has jogged on pavement and had no issues - or she wouldn't say it is ok.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I am not comparing people to dogs (oh, the horror :rofl: ) but there are exercise physiologists that look at what kind of exercises kids should do as teeny children and it's pretty science-y. It also seems pretty clear in this area of repetitive stress. I would guess we could take some of that info and try to extrapolate to dogs. Maybe someone else has. 

I never had shin splints until we ran the stairs for long periods of time in sports. Was I predisposed to that? Maybe, but if I hadn't repetitively pounded on those stairs I am guessing that I wouldn't have had them as a problem. Why do I bring this up? I am still bitter. 

Anyway, this would be a good topic to research further to see if there are any studies that support either hypotheses. 

And until I found out for sure, I would let a puppy do their run, stop, lay down, pick up a leaf, run, pee, sniff their pee, run, method rather than not.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Vinnie said:


> I'll bet you Elaine has a few dogs she has jogged on pavement and had no issues - or she wouldn't say it is ok.


 How do people know that she wouldn't?  Elaine didn't present any studies either so it's her word vs other people's words. Unfortunately, her 'word' sounds pretty hostile and condescending so I'm not surprised that it sets people off.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

GSD07 said:


> How do people know that she wouldn't?  Elaine didn't present any studies either so it's her word vs other people's words. Unfortunately, her 'word' sounds pretty hostile and condescending so I'm not surprised that it sets people off.


Because I'm telling you - from experience - Elaine wouldn't say something if she didn't have her own personal experience with it. She doesn't flower up her posts. She calls it as she sees it. I believe she may be getting a bit (as you perceive it) "hostile" and "condescending" because people are also responding to her posts in the same manner.


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I would like to say that I respect everyone on this site and in no way was my post hostile or even in the same room as such... yet I recieved a post back that was.

I am always respectful in my posts and I just expect that same courtesy.

I agree that Elaine may have more experience than most, but it does not rule out the fact that we too have experience and beliefs. The way WE raise our dogs does not necessarily mean that others should do the same. This thread asked about everyone's experience and opinion, which I gave. I don't want to be "belittled" for it either. 

I agree to disagree and raise my "pup" the way *I* see fit. Again... JMO.

Anyways, I think this thread would be better off with those of us who believe on thing or another looking for information that would benefit everyone, one way or the other not bashing or talking about other members.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Vinnie said:


> Because I'm telling you - from experience - Elaine wouldn't say something if she didn't have her own personal experience with it. She doesn't flower up her posts. She calls it as she sees it. I believe she may be getting a bit (as you perceive it) "hostile" and "condescending" because people are also responding to her posts in the same manner.


  That's great; so I think she doesn't mind when others, who have their own experiences and do not like to flower their own posts, do the very same thing as Elaine does, i.e. express their own opinion and respond to other posts based on their own perceptions.

BTW, I loved your supporting argument, 'because I'm telling you' 

Agree with Elizabeth!


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Yes, I'm a little hostile and sarcastic because this is one of my major peeves and everyone just buys into the idea that you can't run your pup on pavement just because it's repeated over and over without ever thinking about it for themselves. I have been running and biking dogs since the stone age, even back then there was pavement, and never had a dog develop any problem from it. Nobody thought anything of it and, to this day, I have never seen or heard of a dog that did, outside of crippled dogs that had no business running on anything. 

I don't care what people here do with their dogs other than feeling sorry for their dogs, but it's irresponsible to keep pushing this on the new people that just don't know any better. It's one thing to say you haven't done it with your own dog and another to tell them that running on pavement is wrong and will damage their dog's body.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Elaine said:


> *There is no logical reason to not run your puppy. If you would even think about it for a moment, you would see it makes no sense.*


I think you just are not understanding, we ALL agree with that part of your posts.

And it's a HUGE problem that the vast majority of people way underexercise their puppies for the first year or so. My puppies go miles and miles and miles and miles by the time they are 16 weeks old. Bet more than you are jogging your leashed puppies on pavement. My pups go further and get to run at their top speed at that age.

I'll also disagree that anyones 'real world' has no place to go off leash. At least in the USA and if people HAVE A CAR. Before we get a puppy we may have no idea where these places are, but talking to dog people, GOING TO CLASSES to make the connections to people who know where to take puppies, meeting people WITH huge yards the pups can tear around in....

All the hikes I take my dogs on I have to pack them in a car and DRIVE. While I'm lucky it's just 15 minutes to many places, I also drive up to an hour! While I live in a somewhat rural area, when I go on all my visits to the northern VA/DC area I've always been able to find places to have my dogs off leash there too! 



 
So, for me................. if for the health of my puppy............... I choose to exercise them in a manner that pretty much everyone agrees is low impact and healthy for them, why not?

Rather than take a chance there may be a problem with using a leash and jogging a young puppy on pavement?





 
Besides which the off leash training, bonding, having a puppy that learns to be reliable and stay near with no leash is SO much easier when we can start at 8 weeks when they want to stay close, and not wait until they are much older.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

I just googled "causes of caninie hip dysplasia" and can find plenty of articles written by PHD's, Vet's etc... that name "being pushed too hard when young" as a cause, of course genetics is a major cause of it too. 

So, the articles are there, written by qualified people, my vet happens to agree with them. This is my 1st puppy so I don't have my own experiance to go on and don't want to find out the hard way i helped give my puppy HD. 

If you choose to ignore what most of the people trained in animal care say that's up to you...but why risk it?


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

I’m sorry Elizabeth, I think your post was just the last of a string and you just got caught in the middle of things. I agree, you were very polite and only stated your own opinion. Yes, everyone is welcome to share their opinions and experiences. In fact, I hope people feel encouraged to share even if their opinion is different than the crowd’s. That's my problem with this thread is that I feel people are not willing to let Elaine have her opinion because it's different. Anyway, thank you Elizabeth for trying to be helpful. 

MRL – loving the videos. They show some very helpful examples of what you are trying to tell us. Thank you. I know I can always count on you to share some great instructional videos. 

Oksana – do you have any opinions to share with everyone regarding jogging a puppy on pavement? What’s your opinion – good? Bad? Ya really gotta love those members who come into a conversation just for the argument and offer no helpful advice whatsoever, don't ya? 

Anyone - I’d still really love to see or hear about anyone who has actually run/jogged their puppies on pavement (or another hard surface) that has actually had it result in an injury or health problem. Does anyone know of any? Or if you haven’t experienced it yourself, have you seen a vet case or a study that indicates this has happened? Everyone seems to agree that exercise such as jogging is needed. I think the only disagreement here is the type of surface people are jogging on with the puppy. BTW: I personally live in the utopian world of fluffy bunnies and squirrels but I have jogged a 4-5 month old puppy down a paved road when I lived in town – regularly without issue or adverse health effects. But I am just one person. 

The original question in case anyone else wants to comment without going through the whole thread. Please note that the OP is not asking about what type of ground surface is ok. Is it ok to start jogging with a 4 ½ month old GSD and what distance? Is jogging itself bad for a puppy’s joints?




Yiorgo1026 said:


> Hey! I have a 4 1/2 month old GSD, and i was wondering if it's to soon to start jogging with her? I've tried jogging short distances just to see how she reacts, and she seems to like it. I was wondering if it's ok to up the distance? Im pretty sure she will be able to keep up, she's faster then me lol, however i heard it might be bad for her joints. Is this true?


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

Back to the OPs question, yes, it is just fine to jog your pup and if all you've got is pavement, then that's what you run on. At that age, your pup most likely won't jog for any sort of distance anyway as they get so distracted by everything, like the wind, so you can just give him as much exercise as he wants and you have the time for. It takes time for them to be able to concentrate long enough to do any one thing for any length of time. By six months they usually are able to really get into jogging.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Vinnie said:


> Anyone - I’d still really love to see or hear about anyone who has actually run/jogged their puppies on pavement (or another hard surface) that has actually had it result in an injury or health problem. Does anyone know of any?


Vinnie, Why would you love to hear someone's dog got HD from jogging too early? To prove your point? thats more than bogus and a selfish reason to love to hear about a dogs suffering. and no I don't know of any cases 1st hand, but im not trying to make my dog or the OP's dog the example. 

countless articles, and experts say not to jog your dog too soon. why encourage someone to go out and possibly overexercise their dog on poor surfaces and at the very least incresae the potential for HD if not cause it outright?

is the sky even blue?


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## elisabeth_00117 (May 17, 2009)

I believe Vinnie meant (correct me if I am wrong) he would like to read/be directed to studies or current/past dogs that have had issues due to running/jogging on hard surfaces.

I too would be interested in those with information (heading to work and in the middle of midterms so my searching will have to wait till the weekend) correlating the two.

No one means harm to anyone, they are just stating their belief/experience. No need to make it into something that it isn't.

Have a good day everyone, off to work!


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

chicagojosh said:


> Vinnie, Why would you love to hear someone's dog got HD from jogging too early? To prove your point? thats more than bogus and a selfish reason to love to hear about a dogs suffering. and no I don't know of any cases 1st hand, but im not trying to make my dog or the OP's dog the example.
> 
> countless articles, and experts say not to jog your dog too soon. why encourage someone to go out and possibly overexercise their dog on poor surfaces and at the very least incresae the potential for HD if not cause it outright?
> 
> is the sky even blue?


:thumbup: Agreed!

I have a question.......... Vinnie & Elaine, are you guys Vets? 

Because Vets go to school and learn about medical problems and they do research and studies. If they are saying it's not safe, then it's not safe.


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

well said laren thanks... Vet's have the credentials, listen to them OP


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## myripchoco (Oct 22, 2010)

WOW, I can't believe the ignorance in this thread coming from Elaine and co. You should not be jogging/running your pup for miles until it hits near physical maturity. Running on pup that much and on a regular basis creates stress that prohibits bone growth. Wow, please for the love of GOD don't listen to heresy coming from Elaine. Listen to what logic and sound reason says. Listen to qualified people such as vets, physiologists, and related scientists. Animals including humans that are not yet physically mature have sensitive structure which should be cautiously exposed to external stressors.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

chicagojosh said:


> Vinnie, Why would you love to hear someone's dog got HD from jogging too early? To prove your point? thats more than bogus and a selfish reason to love to hear about a dogs suffering. and no I don't know of any cases 1st hand, but im not trying to make my dog or the OP's dog the example.


First, no one's dog is going to "get" HD from jogging. HD is much more complicated than that. The dog has to have the genetic factor to "get" HD. Maybe you need to do a little research on HD.  Last time I checked though, this topic isn't about HD. 

Second, see Elisabeth's post. I think she totally understands why I would like to see or hear about something more solid. I think it would benefit everyone. Not just me. (BTW: I never said I agree or disagree with jogging a puppy on hard surfaces. I just want us to leave room to allow anothers opinion, even if it's different than the majority.) 

--------------

Now, I'm going to officially ask (nicely and with a big smile) everyone can we please get back on topic? If we can't - I will close this thread.

Does jogging really harm a puppy?

Thanks,
Vinnie
Admin.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

myripchoco said:


> WOW, I can't believe the ignorance in this thread coming from Elaine and co. You should not be jogging/running your pup for miles until it hits near physical maturity. Running on pup that much and on a regular basis creates stress that prohibits bone growth. Wow, please for the love of GOD don't listen to heresy coming from Elaine. Listen to what logic and sound reason says. *Listen to qualified people such as vets, physiologists, and related scientists.* Animals including humans that are not yet physically mature have sensitive structure which should be cautiously exposed to external stressors.


:thumbup:


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## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

chicagojosh said:


> well said laren thanks... Vet's have the credentials, listen to them OP


Really? When was the last time anyone on this board paid any attention to their vet's nutrition recommendations? Remember, they have the credentials. Exercise is in the same category.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Vinnie said:


> Now, I'm going to officially ask (nicely and with a big smile) everyone can we please get back on topic? If we can't - I will close this thread.
> 
> Does jogging really harm a puppy?
> 
> ...


I mean it.

Back on topic - NOW!


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## chicagojosh (Jun 22, 2010)

Vinnie, they are your words not mine. I quoted you.

and i have read up a ton on HD. not that you want to hear it, but multiple QUALIFED resources state that genetics only causes around 30% of HD. Overfeeding and over exercising causing the other 70%.

and again, lets say that stat is wrong and it was only 10% caused by overexercising. why are you encouraging this???? do you want to OP's god to get HD or even maybe get it? come on man its called a pre-caution.


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## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Ok - sorry - topic is officially closed. I can see that all some people want to do is argue and there seems to be no interest in discussing the actual topic.

Thanks,
Vinnie
Admin.


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