# Rude Vet



## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

I took Balen back to the vet today because his minor limping came back, and it was in both legs. The vet we saw is a new vet, and it was my first time meeting him. Young guy, seemed nice until he saw Balen come around the check in desk, and he immediately said, "oh, its a GSD. Grab a muzzle." to the vet tech. The vet tech there knows me pretty well. She gave me sort of an apologetic look as she handed me the muzzle to put on Balen. 

We went into the back and I explained what was going on with Balens back legs, and explained the story of how we got him and why he looks like he does, etc, etc. The whole time the vet is standing there with his arms folded, looking very annoyed. He said he was going to manipulate Balens legs, to get an idea of what was going on so he called the vet tech in the room to help "restrain the head."

Balen BTW was taking this all in stride and being pretty good. He didnt yelp, or pull back, or anything. The vet stands up and has me walk Balen around and up and down the hallway for a couple minutes. He says he doesnt think that Balen has any sort of an injury- and since Balen wasnt bothered by the leg manipulations, he didnt think it was HD, but probably Pano. Of course he suggested X-RAYS to be 100% sure, which I understood and told him I would talk to my husband about it. He suggested supplementing with Glucosimine and vitamin e and and daily supplement for adult dogs. I told him that was what the other vet told us to do when he had our visit Tueday, and that was answered with a "uh-huh." 

I figured the vet visit was about over so I grabbed my purse off the floor and then the guy proceeds to "warn" me that he see's BYB dogs like Balen all the time, and that I should be aware that Balen will probably be "riddled" with problems as he gets older. He said Balen also has a pretty poor build for a GSD, and that I should expect him to have arthritis by the time he is 5-6 years old. He didnt like the way Balen was standing either. 

At that point I couldnt take it anymore, so I just cut him off and said that I would call back on Monday to make an appointment for xrays. (If he had kept going I probably would have gotten myself banned from there. They're only 5 minutes from my house though, so I'd rather not.) I paid and we left. 

I'm considering filing a complaint. That office has always been so nice. I know Balen is a BYB (most likely) dog, but I dont think he's that bad. Or maybe I'm just biased? I'm not an expert or a vet, but I think the vet went over the top.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

If that is the only vet there, change vets. Otherwise, have it noted you will not see this vet. Complain to the practice owner, or if it is a franchise, corporate offices, and not customer service (apologies any csr on here, I'm one to). Stress that it isn't the staff you are complaining about, they are great, it is this 'vet'.

I'd almost be tempted to cancel the check with letter to office stating why.


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## Freddy (Apr 23, 2009)

When I had my first GSD the vet I took him to would not see him without a muzzle. I found a different vet. 

As far as the extra comments, sounds like he needs some "bedside manner". I wouldn't totally discount his comments though, if a vet made those structural comments about one of mine I would get them checked hoping if there is an issue I could address it to maximize the life and comfort of my dog. 

I don't know if being kind of rude is a "complaintable" offense though. 

Good luck. I hope you find a good vet soon.


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## cta (May 24, 2011)

i'm sorry that happened  i know it's hard to hear things like that, especially since you're so in love with this dog and you just got him and you're trying to do the best thing for him. maybe there's truth to what he said (i have no idea) but i would expect a vet to act in a professional manner. it kind of reminds me about the time i had a "professional" dog walker come over to meet my chobahn and within two seconds of meeting him she told me he was aggressive (SO not true, he has bad manners at the front door, my fault, i know) and that he would definitely bite somebody one day. i was like WTH? she called him "special needs" and flamed me for using a prong on him. she also asked if he would "Attack her from behind" like shepherds like to do. bah...silly lady. i have to say, i know where you're coming from because that lady made me feel like a piece of  i guess what i would tell you is to try and let it go..i know it's hard tho trust me! maybe he will have arthritis when he's 5 or 6 and he's not a perfect "specimen", but that doesn't change the love you have for him...shame on the vet for being so crass.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

He's probably had bad experiences with GSD's in the past. There are tons a piss poor temperament GSD's out there and he's probably come across a few as a vet. Maybe was bit by a few and has a fear of them now. Probably just using a muzzle for his own protection and peace of mind. Not an excuse for rudeness, but I'm guessing that's where he's coming from.

Now about the structure and arthritis... I think he's talking out of his...

He has no clue if this dog is going to have arthritis or not. He hasn't done any x-rays and doesn't even know what's causing the limping. Pano is fairly common and is something he'll just outgrow (if that's what the issue is). That's not going to cause arthritis. 

The supplementing with glucosamine is a good idea. I'd take him up on that as a precautionary thing. 

If you like the vet office, but don't like this vet, just go with another vet next time. I'm sure you'll both be happy with that decision. He doesn't like GSD's and you don't like him.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Twyla said:


> I'd almost be tempted to cancel the check with letter to office stating why.


Thats what my Husband said to do....I'm thinking about it.


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## blackshep (Aug 3, 2012)

I have a wonderful vet who lets my pup lick her face. lol

Maybe if you like the clinic, next time make sure you get an apt with your regular vet. I'd still call and let them know you did not appreciate his judgemental attitude.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

When you make your next appointments, request to use the first vet you used, you have that option, even with the xrays and I would insist on it

And yes, not only gsd's but alot of dogs are petrified at the vets, but you can be sure, if they see a little lap dog coming they aren't going to say "get the muzzle", it will be more breed specific 

In a way I don't blame them, who wants to get bit? However, there's an easier way to handle it than "OH GOD IT'S ONE OF THEM GERMAN SHEPHERDS GET A MUZZLE!"..


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> If you like the vet office, but don't like this vet, just go with another vet next time. I'm sure you'll both be happy with that decision. He doesn't like GSD's and you don't like him.


I will most certainly request one of the other vets next time.

I was just so taken back by his whole demeanor. I gave Balen a hug when I put him in the car and told him he was perfect, lol dumb, I know, but it was about the equivalent of me taking Kolton to the Doctor for a cold and being told that he's ugly or something.


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## GSDAlphaMom (Jul 20, 2010)

Have them note on your file you will not see vet x so they don't put you in the pool of which vet is open when you make your appt.


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## kbella999 (Jan 6, 2012)

Definately ask for a different vet. If I went to a vet and they wanted to muzzle my dog just because he was a GSD I would walk out. GSD's are a good judge of character so maybe that is why the vet has had some bad experiences with them .


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I would not burn a bridge unless I had a big time bridge in place already (independently wealthy enough and able to drive a close enough distance to use any vet office with emergency hours). If you have an emergency, anytime, the last thing you want to be backed into a corner having to do - is to deal with a place that you canceled a check at. I can't imagine that would go over too well (if you can even do that?). 

This guy may turn out to be a good vet. Or he may not. 

But the people who take care of my animals get treated very well, and if there is a problem, I deal with it up front and in the most diplomatic fashion possible, because I don't want to have to bring a dog on emergency service or need something, or whatever, and have the last thing they remember about me be a bad thing. This doesn't mean that vets will give you better or worse service, but what I know about behavior indicates to me that this will not make things better. 

RE: the other stuff - if you are manipulating a dog in pain there is a chance, better than usual, they will snap at you. A dog you've never met, with a handler/owner you don't know can increase those chances. You don't know his experiences with the breed/dogs around you. I know I sit in the waiting room and see some pretty bad dogs of all breeds, totally out of control, and I would not want to have to deal with any of them! 

And when you look at GSD structure, and see some of them, it is not what someone who was inventing a sturdy, healthy dog would come up with.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

kbella999 said:


> GSD's are a good judge of character so maybe that is why the vet has had some bad experiences with them .


Haha I think you're right. :thumbup:


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would just avoid that vet if possible. Nothing he said is fact, it's all speculation based on an obvious bias "grab a muzzle". 

Funny, in my house, it is NOT the GSD that people should be scared of. It's the Boxer's that they think are so very cute and want to pet!

If you like the other vets there, go to them. When I made the appt for Banshee tomorrow, I just asked for specific vets.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Twyla said:


> If that is the only vet there, change vets. Otherwise, have it noted you will not see this vet. Complain to the practice owner, or if it is a franchise, corporate offices, and not customer service (apologies any csr on here, I'm one to). Stress that it isn't the staff you are complaining about, they are great, it is this 'vet'.
> 
> *I'd almost be tempted to cancel the check with letter to office stating why*.


This makes me really angry. 

I understand that the OP was unhappy with some of what the vet said about her dog. He was giving her a warning about the dog, maybe to suggest taking the dog back to whoever she got him from, maybe that wasn't helpful in her case as he might have been hoping. 

But, he saw the dog, manipulated the dog's legs, felt him over, gave a professional opinion offering x-rays to be sure -- and yes, x-rays will confirm a diagnosis of pano or HD. The vet tech and the woman that puts together the bill still needs to be paid as does the vet. 

There are very few occasions where if we work stuff around in our brain long enough, we cannot find ANY reason to be upset. So might as well plan on getting free services all the time. 

To the OP, this vet is 5 minutes from home, and you do not want to be banned from there. Stopping payment on the check I think is a very bad idea. But, I would go and talk to the vet you know there, that you like and explain to him/her what happened and that you are upset and ask them if there is any avenue for letting the guy know that you really didn't appreciate him judging your dog that way. Or write it down, what it was he said, and why it made you upset, and e-mail it to the vet himself. 

I really have a hard time with going right to not paying for services rendered. 

If the guy is young, it may be helpful for him to hear exactly why you were upset.

As for the muzzle, I don't know. I have asked them to muzzle my dogs on occasion if I know something is going to painful or even odd/scary. I am quicker to muzzle my dogs than they are. But if there was _any_ question, I would rather them muzzle and everyone be safe and comfortable. 

I am sorry you had a bad experience with your new vet. I had a less than good experience with the new vet that my clinic brought in, and well, I have been back a couple of times, and it is getting a whole lot better. Don't be too quick to totally pull the plug on the guy. Give him a second chance. Chances are he realized you were upset when you cut off the conversation. Probably that is all that is needed.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I would not be insulted if a vet asked me to muzzle my dog. Better to protect both and comply. My cat had a muzzle order because he growled during and exam. I was not insulted.

I agree with JeanKBBMMMAN. I would not be placing a stop payment of that cheque for payment of services that you did receive. Just because you did not like the attitude is no reason to place a stop payment. Here, that is considered fraud.


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## GatorDog (Aug 17, 2011)

If I don't trust that a technician could fully restrain my dog who may show pain with manipulation, then I'd have no problem with having him muzzled. I'd probably bring a basket muzzle with me just because that's what he's used to and it's a little more comfortable. 

I definitely wouldn't stop payment on the check either. The vet still performed what seemed like a proper examination and should be paid for his services. I'd just request a different vet next time if I didn't like that one.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> I would not burn a bridge unless I had a big time bridge in place already (independently wealthy enough and able to drive a close enough distance to use any vet office with emergency hours). If you have an emergency, anytime, the last thing you want to be backed into a corner having to do - is to deal with a place that you canceled a check at. I can't imagine that would go over too well (if you can even do that?).


You are right, you can't legally cancel a check.

-->me<-- insert foot


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I agree with Caledon- it didn't insult me that a vet tech at the eye dr wanted to muzzle Stosh when she was doing some tests on his eye and I figure it's better to be safe than sorry. However, if you feel that this vet just didn't care about Balen or take an interest in his health and didn't take you seriously, then see the other vet. I would have voiced my displeasure with his attitude at the time of service rather than stop payment after the fact


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## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I took my GSD to an ophthalmologist for a wellness couple of years ago. It was a new vet office. After a technician finished taking history in the exam room, a couple more techs came into the room and told me that they had to do some preliminary tests on her. 

They told me to hold her. I sat in a chair, and put her upper body over my lap and wrapped my right arm around her neck. As soon as she was positioned, a tech put a cloth muzzle on her, without warning/asking. My GSD had never had a muzzle before. I was a bit surprised, but I gave my GSD a "stay" command, and just praised her for doing well. She stayed calm while the techs did a couple of other things, including putting a strip of paper in each of her eye (to check tear volume). 

They took off the muzzle when they finished the preliminary tests. I marked it and gave my GSD a lot of treats. The ophthalmologists was very friendly and we had a good experience. 

I would've appreciated it if the techs forewarned me about muzzling, but it wasn't a big deal. I took it as a training opportunity. The vet office didn't know my dog, I don't think I should get offended for them trying to protect themselves. 

As for cancelling the check, I agree with others, I don't think it is right to not pay for services you received. The vet might've had bad bedside manners, but he did do his job.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Well, GSDs have some really impressive teeth. I wouldn't blame the vet for wanting to be safe instead of sorry. Put yourself in his shoes : client brings former stray that she has had for a week. Dog's history is unknown. Dog has some pain, and your manpulations may make it worse.
Would you risk an injury and maybe not being able to work for a while just so your client's feelings might not be hurt?
The vet gave a professional opinion based on his assessment. He was not paid to be complimentary. 
He rendered a service. I do not understand why he should be denied payment for it.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Ok, I called the clinic and was transferred to the clinic manager. I did not stop payment (which I really couldnt anyway) and I explained the situation to her. She didnt seem very surprised by what I had to say. She did offer me a free groom and nail clip for both my dogs. 

For the record, I wasnt offened at what he did or what he said, it was the _way_ he came across. I found it unprofessional and since I'm paying for professional services, I expect professionalism. I'll just request my regular vet from here on out.


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## kiya (May 3, 2010)

Definately don't burn your bridges there, stopping payment isn't going to solve anything. I would definately make sure all appointments are made with the other vet.
That was one of the reasons why I switched from my original vet, he was always out on farm calls and normally didn't go into the office. So everytime I went there it was a different vet. Then there was the vet 2 minutes from my house, it was a satalite office from his main practice and I always felt like I was bothering them and the tec was snippy. 
So now my current vet has her own practice, small but booming (go figure). Sometimes we don't agree on everything and she has a 
rude office manager but I deal with it.
Hopefully his next patient was a pit.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

I really don't understand people who get into the veterinary business but are afraid of their clientele. Unless my dog was clearly being aggressive or I informed the vet that it's possible they will bite, I would have been out of there the second he said 'muzzle'. I feel like vets who slap a muzzle on immediately do this just so they can be rough and have poor body language and don't have to be gentle or careful with my dog.

The vet we used to go to liked diagnosing my dog with diseases he didn't have. I think she did it so that we'd do testing and she'd make more money off of us, or so we'd buy her special over-priced supplements and dog food. It's not nice hearing that my dog has hip dysplasia and pannus and then finding out my vet is full of bullcrap. Perhaps this vet was warning you of these things to freak you out and get you to spend lots of money on testing.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Freddy said:


> As far as the extra comments, sounds like he needs some "bedside manner". I wouldn't totally discount his comments though, if a vet made those structural comments about one of mine I would get them checked hoping if there is an issue I could address it to maximize the life and comfort of my dog.


That's how I would take it, too. The vet probably could have said it in a less abrasive manner, but the message I would take home is "We see a lot of dogs that look like this, and they tend to have a lot of health problems, so it's in his best interest if you watch out for, and be prepared to mitigate, certain health issues."

As far as the muzzle thing, well, I can tell you. I've worked with several different veterinarians, and they all dislike GSDs because they see so many with temperament problems. GSDs have a reputation almost as bad as Chows and Rottweilers among the veterinary community. Which is a sad state of affairs for the breed.

The upside of that is that if you happen to have a well-trained, well-behaved GSD of good breeding and good temperament, veterinarians will never cease to compliment you on how you have the nicest GSD they have ever seen, and they wish they could all be like that.  It sounds like Balen was a really good boy at his appointment, so maybe next time they won't insist on muzzling.

There are two schools of thought on muzzling. One is that it's just safest to automatically muzzle any dog that you think MIGHT bite, and get it out of the way before any damage can occur. The second is to evaluate each dog case by case, try to read the dog and proceed slowly, and have a muzzle handy in case Fido starts giving off an "I wanna bite you" vibe. I tend to fall into the second category.... HOWEVER.... I don't even take Chows at my grooming shop, because I've met so many that were just plain mean and I don't want to take chances. If I were a vet and I HAD to see Chows, I might insist that any Chow coming to see me be muzzled first. Especially if I never meet any nice ones.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Perhaps this vet was warning you of these things to freak you out and get you to spend lots of money on testing.


I don't know about that, one of our vets was commenting on one of our rescued GSDs last winter, on how "most are so overdone", with their low-slung hips and overangulation. She made comments about poor breeders, too.

I think vets get frustrated when they see caricatures of what the breed is supposed to look like. 

And I've been at more than one vet when people bring in their fearful GSDs, and we've heard a lot of comments about how our GSD is one of the rare "nice ones". Maybe it's the area, but we also see a lot of fearful GSDs at clinics.

And I'm another owner and rescuer who would rather slap on a muzzle instead of chancing a bite which could put you out of commission for days or even weeks.



> The vet probably could have said it in a less abrasive manner, but the message I would take home is "We see a lot of dogs that look like this, and they tend to have a lot of health problems, so it's in his best interest if you watch out for, and be prepared to mitigate, certain health issues."


Well, I hope people didn't forget, either, that the OP has been to the vet twice now for a limp. IME, Pano affects one leg at a time, not both back legs. 
I'd be more suspicious, in fact, of a spinal issue at this point, if both back legs are having problems, and/or hips - even if the vet didn't detect anything, you may want to visit a vet who'll do x-rays. 
Also IME, if you go in for a dog limping, you need to be prepared to spring for x-rays on the spot -otherwise your visit is wasted.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Well, I hope people didn't forget, either, that the OP has been to the vet twice now for a limp. IME, Pano affects one leg at a time, not both back legs.
> I'd be more suspicious, in fact, of a spinal issue at this point, if both back legs are having problems, and/or hips - even if the vet didn't detect anything, you may want to visit a vet who'll do x-rays.
> Also IME, if you go in for a dog limping, you need to be prepared to spring for x-rays on the spot -otherwise your visit is wasted.


I've read conflicting info on pano and whether it affects more than one leg at a time or not. My grandparents GSD was diagnosed with it by xray in both front legs when he was 14 months....so IDK. We will get the xrays done. I just couldnt do it today.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

pano is weird, it can affect one leg one day, two the next, a different leg a different day. mostly affecting males as well.

if your going to do the xrays, for peace of mind and he'll be under anyway, have them shoot the hips/elbows / spine. Having the xray can be good for future reference should you need it to compare changes and such.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

If you do go in for x-rays....make sure the vet doing it knows how to position correctly so you can send them in to OFA if you so choose. I would not trust just any vet to do this. It could be a waste of $ if the vet doesn't know what they're doing. 
Natural human grade Vitamin C(or EsterC) supplement is something I'd add right now, and slowly up the dosage from 500mg for a few days, then 1000mg to 2000mg(split between am and pm meals) 
It is a natural anti-inflammatory and will reduce the length of the bout if it is Pano.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

This is what we give our GSD who was dx'ed with elbow dysplasia.

Next Level Joint Fluid - Equine | Pet Supplies, Horse Supplies, Dog Supplies | KVsupply.com


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Get another vet - this guy can never act in the best interest of the dog.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Why don't you google "holistic vets in _____"(your city or nearest), then have a consult on how to enrich this dogs health as well as natural anti-inflam's and supportive care based on his nutritional needs and where he came from.
Then go back to see this vet in a year with Balen gleeming from head to toe and tell him to_ Suck it._
From a conventional standpoint that's the only opinon he could form anyhow, he's only at fault as far as he is limited in his methods

Oh, and unless Balen is debilitated with a broken leg, then there is no reason to put him under at this time...he needs a few months to bring up to healthy enough status to handle, his immune system is still too weak...wait to x-ray for when fixed...then only have to do once. Focus on food, some suppliments, stock we discussed.

Fast Joint Care + is an amazing product, it's made from egg shell membrane...5-10 days improvement as opposed to glucs./chon. 4-6 weeks


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> Ok, I called the clinic and was transferred to the clinic manager. I did not stop payment (which I really couldnt anyway) and I explained the situation to her. She didnt seem very surprised by what I had to say. She did offer me a free groom and nail clip for both my dogs.
> 
> For the record, I wasnt offened at what he did or what he said, it was the _way_ he came across. I found it unprofessional and since I'm paying for professional services, I expect professionalism. I'll just request my regular vet from here on out.


I totally get what you mean. The first vet I saw with Echo went on and on about how only one testicle had descended, how this was a major fault, and how this "animal" would never be allowed in a show ring. He actually said he was defective. He was only there for his vaccinations. He spoke with such disgust about my dog. I requested I never see him again, the other vet at the practice always had great things to say, and if anything was critical she was always very professional about it. By the time he was neutered, both testicles had descended, all was right with the world.

Bottom line, if you don't get a good vibe from this guy, don't go to him. If something major ever happened, you'd never trust him. There are too many great vets out there to suffer through a jerky one.


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## Caragirl (Sep 2, 2008)

I am sorry you had such a bad experience. It would be like taking a child to the dr and having the dr criticize your child's looks. I was just at our vet today. She is always so cheerful and friendly. We are moving (military) at the beginning of next year and I will definitely miss this vet!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been lucky, mine has seen three different vets at 3 different places and not one of them asked to muzzle her. They all took a liking to her, so I feel very comfortable going to any of them if need be. They are scattered I would not go back to that vet, but I would get the xrays with the first vet. I would also mention how you feel and what was said to someone.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> It would be like taking a child to the dr and having the dr criticize your child's looks


No, it would be like taking your child to a doctor and they said something about the shoes your child had one, and said you need to get other ones or your child may have fallen arches (or some other malady).

It wasn't about _looks_; it was about a worried owner bringing her dog in for a bi-lateral limp and the vet saying that since he has uncertain breeding (quite possibly poor breeding) he's prone to a joint disease.


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## Zeeva (Aug 10, 2010)

Here is my opinion and don't feel offended about it please...

I do feel for you. You obviously care about your GS and want what is best for him. But you may also want to hear the best from your vet about him because your pet means so much to you. The vet gave you his professional opinion. Don't drown yourself in it. If it hurt, find a different vet. I agree with others that you shouldn't burn your bridges with him by complaining etc. Some vets will give you their professional opinion with bad bedside manner. I know a vet who will tell you in not so kindly terms that your pet is dying. Not everyone wants to hear it that way but at least he tells the truth rather than charging you up the bum with vet bills and in the end having the pet die anyway...

Feel me?


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I changed vets when every vet in our old vet's office had trouble with my oldest rescue. It sounds like this man is either extremely egotistical and full of himself or else has had bad experiences with rescued GSDs in the past, especially when ill.

Our current vet, who we switched to on recommendation, warned me that our FA male would turn on me if he was ever injured, and is extremely alpha/dominent aggressive. Not only isn't he not dominant, I know his aggression, when it happens, comes out of fear. Still, that man was one of the best vets in our area and I continued to use him until he moved out of the area, even though he knew almost nothing about behavior.

His replacement was a nut, hated GSDs, hated rescues and was extremely negative about dogs in general. Makes you wonder why she became a vet. I only saw her once, with another rescue, and told her up front, This dog is a rescue, she's going to react to you (she doesn't bite, but she's afraid of the vet's office) so be prepared in advance. Because I knew what to expect (the vet's reputation was well known among my friends by the time we saw her), I headed her off in advance. I did tell the staff, though, that her manner put me off and in the future, I wanted to see any other vet but her. They must have had multiple complaints, because she's gone. I find that talking to the staff and maintaining a good relationship with them makes the difference between a good vet experience and a bad one. I take them gifts at Christmas and I thank them for being so cheerful and helpful every time I'm in the office.

If this vet isn't a regular on staff, he might be doing an internship or residency there, or might be a new vet without his own practice. So, before ending a relationship with the office, find out if he's an owner or a permanent hire, or if there is a chance he might be leaving in the future.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

you're upset because the Vet wanted to muzzle Balen
because he's a GSD. you're upset at his comments.
so you report him. i don't think reporting him is going
to go in your favor. you report him and repeat what he said.
i don't think it's going to be looked down upon. you could
be being a little to sensitive. i doubt Balen is upset by the Vets
manners or comments.



PatchonGSD said:


> I took Balen back to the vet today because his minor limping came back, and it was in both legs. The vet we saw is a new vet, and it was my first time meeting him. Young guy, seemed nice until he saw Balen come around the check in desk, and he immediately said, "oh, its a GSD. Grab a muzzle." to the vet tech. The vet tech there knows me pretty well. She gave me sort of an apologetic look as she handed me the muzzle to put on Balen.
> 
> We went into the back and I explained what was going on with Balens back legs, and explained the story of how we got him and why he looks like he does, etc, etc. The whole time the vet is standing there with his arms folded, looking very annoyed. He said he was going to manipulate Balens legs, to get an idea of what was going on so he called the vet tech in the room to help "restrain the head."
> 
> ...


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

I am going to speak as a person who has been bitten numerous times while working at the clinics I have worked for. You have to realize that when you come into the office, "we" don't really know how your dog will react. One time the dog might be wagging its tail, the next time, because it is in pain, might bite or snap. I can't tell you the number of times that I would ask to have a muzzle put on a dog, small or big, if I got the feeling the dog would bite. The owner of course would be upset that we wanted Poopsie muzzled because "he/she would never ever bite anyone" then the dog promptly tries to take our arm off. Or bites our hands. Its not easy, nor do you have time, to decide how the dog will react at that moment, so muzzling will protect us, as vet techs, the vets and also the owners when Poopsie decides to bite all of us, which has happened. The surprise bites are the ones that get you, you are doing fine, Vet is examing dog, giving shots or whatever, then the owner does or says something and wham, somebody gets bit, usually on of us in the exam room. I always felt my job is to protect the vet from getting bit, I have to be able to tell if the owner will help or hinder, if the dog is going to bite or be good, is there a chance for a bite, plus watch out for bodily fluids that escape when said dog gets scared and decides it wants to rearrange my face or hands or arms.
As far as the vet, it sounds like he was pretty opinionated, but then again you have to think of how many times the vet has seen people devastated when their pet ends up with major health issues and the vet has to be the one to help the owners help their pet. He should not have gone off like he did, but maybe he has dealt with alot of GSD that have had major issues and he just gets into a "let me warn you" mode.. Is it right? No,and my next sentence is not about "you"but generalizing. Do you know how hard it is to have someone come into the clinic with the new pet, and go on and on about their new dog being a perfect dog, nothing wrong, yadda yadda and the vet and all of us in the room can see major things that are suspicious about the pet's bone structure, mouth, eyes, or whatever. How do you say" this might be a problem in the future" not try to hurt feelings, but want the owner to be aware of something that might not be right?
Use another vet in the practice, but don't be so against the new vet saying what is on his mind. He sees, feels lots of things that maybe an owner doesn't when he examines the dog and is just giving the opinion that you have paid for. You don't have to like it.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Caragirl said:


> It would be like taking a child to the dr and having the dr criticize your child's looks.


No, it isn't. It's like saying your child is prone to scoliosis because of her skeletal structure. There is no value judgment there.


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## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I wouldn't have muzzled my dog (if I knew him enough to know he didn't need it) I would have let them be forceful (if they wanted him restrained I would have done so myself) and I sure as **** wouldn't have put up with the vets unsolicited comments. 

In fact, I would have made a huge deal. I probably wouldn't have paid. And I would have told them I want my a copy of all my records to file with my new vet. 

That kind of treatment is unnecessary. 

Wow, just wow.

And I'm sorry


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I am always amazed by the variety of responses, and sometimes I am amazed a the number of people who say things like "find a new vet" or "don't go to him again, ask for the other vet."

Let's list the transgressions:
1. In the OP's opinion, having never met the guy before, she felt he was unprofessional. 
2. He required a muzzle on a large dog, whose breed has a reputation and that was new to the owner, when he was going to have to exam and move pieces parts that hurt.
3. He suggested the same route of treatment the other vet suggested.
4. He offered some unsolicited advice/opinions that were not very flattering.

From this we deduce that the vet:
1. will not be capable of acting in the dog's best interests.
2. he should not be compensated for his time.
3. you should never darken his door again.
4. he is afraid of dogs.
5. he is going to make you go through all sorts of unnecessary and costly procedures.


Personally, I see some positives:
1. He made you put a muzzle on the dog. Good for him. Now your dog who may very well still be out of sorts from the change in ownership etc, did not have an opportunity to bite someone, when he did something that probably made the dog scared and uncomfortable. If the dog DID bite him over this because he didn't need to bother with a muzzle, then you would probably feel very different about your dog at this moment, and this thread would be about something totally different.

2. His diagnosis/treatment matched what the other vet said. 

3. He did admit that x-rays are the only way to ensure the diagnosis. I have known of a vet that diagnosed a dog with elbow dysplasia in an elbow and mild hip dysplasia in both hips without x-rays. 

I also see a negative, and that is that he suggested the dog is likely to have a bunch of problems, but offered no suggestions to give the dog a better chance at a healthy life. Perhaps if you let him rail on, he would have said that you should consider some supplements, premium dog food, keeping him lean, and exercising him regularly. 

Pano is pretty common in dogs (males), and generally has no lasting effects, but if your dog is pretty much full grown, then it may be that you are in for more than average issues. I would definitely try to keep him trim, and walk or swim, but do not start him in anything where he has to jump until he is symptom free and you have checked his hips and elbows and spine. Supplementing with vitamin C might make sense too.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

e.rigby said:


> I wouldn't have muzzled my dog (if I knew him enough to know he didn't need it) I would have let them be forceful (if they wanted him restrained I would have done so myself) and I sure as **** wouldn't have put up with the vets unsolicited comments.
> 
> In fact, I would have made a huge deal. I probably wouldn't have paid. And I would have told them I want my a copy of all my records to file with my new vet.


Is this just a wee bit of overreaction? Some of things people say around here make me thank the Lord I don't have clients like this... and I'm not even religious.  

What do you mean when you say you would you have "let them be forceful" with your dog?


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

selzer said:


> I am always amazed by the variety of responses, and sometimes I am amazed a the number of people who say things like "find a new vet" or "don't go to him again, ask for the other vet."
> 
> Let's list the transgressions:
> 1. In the OP's opinion, having never met the guy before, she felt he was unprofessional.
> ...


Well said!!!
I think this vet was doomed from the start in terms of "pleasing" the client.
The moment he asked for the dog to be muzzled he was then in the bad books. GSD have a terrible reputation for biting vets and vet techs. He did the right thing.....protecting himself and his staff......just sayin.....


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I muzzle my dogs routinely at the vet. It removes their option to bite if they don't want to be touched in certain places by the vet. I don't think it is a personal insult to request a muzzle if the vet has never seen the dog(and knowing it was just adopted) The structural comment was a bit harsh, but as posted before, the dog came in because of limping/rear end issue?
One vet I used with Onyx was very afraid of her. She wouldn't come back into the exam room after Onyx went off on her. That is when I started bringing a muzzle. Onyx was only 6 months old and it was the beginning of her fear aggression(right after her spay). I know her nerves aren't solid, but wonder what happened while she was at the vet for her spay surgery. She was fine with vetting until then.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

selzer said:


> From this we deduce that the vet:
> 1. will not be capable of acting in the dog's best interests.
> 2. he should not be compensated for his time.
> 3. you should never darken his door again.
> ...


6. he must be a bad person if the GSDs he sees are biters, since all GSDs are excellent judges of character. 



It's small wonder no veterinarians post on forums like this... they get really tired of all the vet-bashing. Seriously, some of your attitudes are confouding. Veterinarians don't make enough money to be in this line of work for any reason other than to help animals; veterinary school is VERY competitive, VERY expensive, and takes 8 years out of your working life. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, even if they say something you don't want to hear. 

Some doctors have a bad bedside manner, it's true. Yes, there are bad veterinarians just like there are bad plumbers and teachers and priests, but that "rude" veterinarian might be on call the next time a tragic accident happens at 2:00 in the morning, and he could be the one saving your dog's life.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

I agree with the others as far as not canceling the check and simply asking for another vet next time. I always request the same vet for my animals,but will go with any of them in the case of an emergency. They are also about a 5 minutes drive from my house,which makes it a lot more convenient. There's not point in burning bridges with the whole clinic just because of one or a few individuals there. I think muzzling is a standard procedure,even with friendly dogs that come in with any type of injury, etc.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Where's that website Jane, that you post - the vet blog - it's funny to see from the other side. 

I am going to sound like an old lady and tell about a vet that I went to when I first got Bella 9.5 years ago (really? yikes!). I got her from rescue and had her spayed after a couple of months (she was in heat when I got her - really? yikes!). I wasn't as neurotic or OCD then as I am now, but after a few days brought her in because her incision looked puffy. The vet kind of poo-poo'd me and I started to get agitated. I wasn't as mellow or as understanding as I am now.  Anyway, Bella had an infection and I was sure it was his fault (???) so I left all complainy in my head with some abx. 

In a little bit she started to lose big chunks of paw pad. Like...big. I was horrified and terrified thinking she had a pretty bad autoimmune thing. I took her in and he was really shocked by it too. But then I realized he thought I had let her go through chemicals and he was really asking a lot of questions about it. Then I started to wonder if he thought I was doing some Munchauseny kind of thing...and I was like :shocked:

But strangely, that didn't make me mad - I saw that he was concerned about my dog (because he thought I was a loon, but still!) and thankfully, after a few visits, it turned out she had a zinc deficiency and she was fine. He had a whole system that we followed to determine that and I found out that he was actually kind of a good vet. 

From there he went on to literally save the lives of a couple of fosters and went above and beyond when my poor cat got FIP. We worked together from there on out - and that is a great way to try to think of it - working in partnership with your vet. You might not ever like this guy, but if you would have told me when I first got Bella that I would be truly upset when he moved on to a bigger practice, I would have laughed. I still tell everyone to go see him if they have to go to the specialty vet that he works at.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Oh my goodness. Some of you obviously skipped some posts between the first and last pages. 

1. The vet was paid.

2. *I was not* offended that he wanted a muzzle put on Balen. I was offended that, in the lobby, in front of other people, he loudly says, "oh, its a GSD. Grab a muzzle." as soon as he see's Balen before he even says hello to me. He was still 10 feet away from us. He should have politely acknowledged me, and then informed that he wanted to muzzle Balen. 

3. *I was not* offended by what he had to say about Balen and his unknown history. I was offended at his entire demeanor from the moment we walked in the door. It was unwelcoming and unprofessional. It was as if Balen was some sort of "riff raff" that he really didnt want to fool with.

4. You're **** right I think that if someone wants my business and my money-they should at least *act* like they're glad I'm there. Its just bad business otherwise. 

5. After the comment he made about Balens "build" being so poor that he was probably going to have arthritis by the time he was 5-6 years old, I went through almost every post in the critique thread here, and I've concluded the vet must have no idea how a GSD is supposed to look like. I think Balens build is really nice actually, and I dont know how he could think that Balen would be arthritic by 5-6 years just by looking at him. 

6. In conclusion, I did talk to the clinic manager about it. She was not surprised by what I said, and offered me 1 free groom and nail trim for both dogs, which I wont even be able to use but I accepted that as her way of trying to make it right anyway. 

Here are some pictures that I took to keep visual track of how Balen is putting on weight week by week, but you can see his structure pretty well. There is also some movement pics for good measure. What is so wrong with him?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Who We Are, And Why We’re Angry | Angry Vet
flipside:
Veterinarians Behaving Badly


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> Veterinarians Behaving Badly


That's the one!


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Freestep said:


> It's small wonder no veterinarians post on forums like this... they get really tired of all the vet-bashing. Seriously, some of your attitudes are confouding. Veterinarians don't make enough money to be in this line of work for any reason other than to help animals; veterinary school is VERY competitive, VERY expensive, and takes 8 years out of your working life. At least give them the benefit of the doubt, even if they say something you don't want to hear.


Agree with the above. Good breakdown selzer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

And then we have the incredible Dr. Pol....if only he could be cloned! The Incredible Dr. Pol – Nat Geo TV Blogs


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> 6. he must be a bad person if the GSDs he sees are biters, since all GSDs are excellent judges of character.


This was the most bizarre one yet


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

msvette2u said:


> This was the most bizarre one yet


I can't believe I forgot that one.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Just remember, Vets are humans and do make mistakes and say things they wish they could take back. 
My very first GSD show dog was growing up typically, long hocks that tended to be too much for her to handle, underneath her as a youngster, etc. She was going down a bit on her front pasterns during a growth spurt, so I brought her into the clinic with me and it was also the first day of practice with a new vet.. The new vet saw the puppy and just about the time I was asking about the front pasterns, he said" oh wow, her rear is really really bad, I suggest xrays to rule out HD"... He was serious, he had not seen a GSD puppy with the sloping rear/hocks seen in show dog puppies. 
I started laughing and said" this is a typical puppy growth stage, I am not the least concerned about her rear". He actually had not seen a GSD puppy going through the weird show puppy rear growth periods. He was not being mean or nasty, he was very concerned about her rear. After we joked about it and realized she was perfectly fine, conformation wise, we always laughed about it, especially since she grew up okay, clear from HD and normal.
I never held it against him, he was not being mean or even judgemental, he had not seen it before in his first year of practice. 
Lots and lots of vets starting out have not seen many things, they go by what they are taught and what teachers, other vets, some old time vets that are set in their ways, etc. Look at the feeding issues most vets have, they are taught very little in the way of nutrition, feed Science Diet and all will be great. I had to show the second vet I worked for how to AI a dog, he never did it in school. 
Vets are not Gods, they are not perfect, they make mistakes... Most learn things during their first years of practice that will help them as they grow and "mature" in actual practice, and lots of experience from client feedback. 
Personally, and when clients tell me they are unhappy with the vet that they have just seen, I ask them to wait and have the vet talk to them. Have them explain why they are upset, have them explain what the vet did that upset them, and have the client listen to the vet and why he did what he did or said.. Usually keeps everyone happy. As far as the comment about " oh, its a GSD, get the muzzle", I am not sure why that should really upset you. Many GSD are not good at the vets, it was a precautionary measure made by a vet to protect him and his vet techs. He didn't know your dog, and as I stated before, some owners do not see how their dog is acting and the possibility of a bite is being stopped before it happens. I am not singling out you or your dog, just saying what the vet might have thought.
To be honest, half the time when Am Staffs come into the clinic, we automatically muzzle them, also Chows, and many many little ankle biters, its just a matter of stopping a problem before it happens.
Instead of talking to the office manager, you should have taken time to talk to the vet, tell him how he upset you and why he upset you, his comments hurt your feelings. He should know what he did, maybe that will make him a better vet for the next client.
Vets and vet techs have to use arms, hands, legs etc to work. If we get bit it hurts us physically and also can affect our work ability..We all should be able to protect ourselves from being bitten, whether from a GSD, a Golden Retriever or a little foo foo dog.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Do you do this with all dogs of these breeds or just the new ones?




wyominggrandma said:


> To be honest, half the time when Am Staffs come into the clinic, we automatically muzzle them, also Chows, and many many little ankle biters, its just a matter of stopping a problem before it happens.
> .


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

onyx'girl said:


> And then we have the incredible Dr. Pol....if only he could be cloned! The Incredible Dr. Pol – Nat Geo TV Blogs



Uh oh Jane: Veterinarians Behaving Badly: The not so incredible Dr Pol


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I read the comments in another spot where Onyx posted about him, and after reading them, am glad we don't get that channel. 
We have an antenna and converter box, no dish or cable.
They mention farm animals in the above article and I wanted to toss it in there that we had goat castrations where the vet barely let the goat go down before castrating. He got up and walked away after she was done! The kid was bawling the whole time!

But recently I missed the "window" for banding (oops) and had a buckling outgrow the band procedure. I had to call in a new vet (other one decided motherhood trumps vetting!) and this guy sedated my goat with xylazine and the goat didn't even BLINK while having the procedure. He let him get fully "out" and then did a very amazing, very _kind_ castration. The kid never moved and slept through it all. Vet gave him a shot of banamine for pain and swelling, he slept through that, too! 
I brought the kid back in the house and he woke up gently, spent the night inside and the next AM was running around with everyone else!

So there are vets who recognize it's stressful and somewhat inhumane to do it the "old fashioned" way.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

PatchonGSD said:


> 5. After the comment he made about Balens "build" being so poor that he was probably going to have arthritis by the time he was 5-6 years old, I went through almost every post in the critique thread here, and I've concluded the vet must have no idea how a GSD is supposed to look like. I think Balens build is really nice actually, and I dont know how he could think that Balen would be arthritic by 5-6 years just by looking at him.


I don't know what the vet was seeing when he was talking about his build--when I look at him, nothing springs forward as being horribly wrong to me, but I am not a vet. I think you said the vet manipulated his joints... perhaps he felt something there that he didn't like.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> He let him get fully "out" and then did a very amazing, very _kind_ castration. The kid never moved and slept through it all. Vet gave him a shot of banamine for pain and swelling, he slept through that, too!


From what I understand, anesthesia is very risky in goats, and that is why it isn't commonly used when castrating. I don't have a problem with banding or Burdizzo without anesthesia, but doing an open castration without it... ACK!! I can barely stand disbudding.

Anyway... sorry, off topic. Back to your regular programming.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Freestep said:


> From what I understand, anesthesia is very risky in goats, and that is why it isn't commonly used when castrating. I don't have a problem with banding or Burdizzo without anesthesia, but doing an open castration without it... ACK!! I can barely stand disbudding.
> 
> Anyway... sorry, off topic. Back to your regular programming.


No he did fine - it was xylazine which isn't anesthesia but is a sedative. They routinely use it in horses for dentals. 

The other open castration was a mess, but this one was amazing. I should have video taped it, I'm serious. The next day you could barely tell anything happened! No bleeding, no mess, nothing.

OH and he even injected the entire area with a local before making the cut - the goat really didn't even know anything was happening back there.
I prefer banding, but if every castration was as kind and "immediate" as this one, I'd do it every time.
But a band, what, .5 cents maybe? $75 for this procedure uch:


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## Caragirl (Sep 2, 2008)

Freestep said:


> No, it isn't. It's like saying your child is prone to scoliosis because of her skeletal structure. There is no value judgment there.


To comment on how a dog looks without X-rays is not professional. And to assume at first sight a GSD needs a muzzle is definitely a judgment.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

My last two vets were in multi-vet practices and I've told the front office I will not see certain ones for whatever my reason is at the time. I've never been shy about avoiding a vet I felt was unprofessional or uneducated, and I shall continue to do so. The dumbest one I ever saw was at our old ER here in Ocala ... I took Honey in because she suddenly couldn't walk and had a fairly high fever, the idoit immediately diagnosed her problem as having DM and that was it ... we even argued about it (she had been DNA tested and didn't even carry the gene for DM). She died later that day at my regular vet's office ... I STILL HATE HIS STUPID GUTS (even though I don't think even the best vet in the world could have saved her life).


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Caragirl said:


> To comment on how a dog looks without X-rays is not professional. And to assume at first sight a GSD needs a muzzle is definitely a judgment.


Oh really? Where did you go to veterinary school?

What do you think veterinarians do in school for 8 years?

To comment on how an animal looks without x-rays is what vets do every day, with every patient. It's the first thing they do and how they know which direction to go with diagnosis and treatment. I'm not a vet, but even I can tell when there's something "off" about an animal by looking at it or putting my hands on it; that is how a vet is going to determine that an animal NEEDS x-rays. You look first, you palpate the joints, you see or feel something is off, and you recommend x-rays to make a definitive diagnosis. Which is exactly what the vet did.

Veterinarians have to make judgments every day. That is how medicine is practiced. A judgment to use a muzzle is smart and safe. That's not a *value* judgment. If he were making a value judgment, he'd have said "This is a bad dog, get a muzzle". 

Maybe that is how you *interpret* what he said, but you can't assume that's what he meant.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

msvette2u said:


> No he did fine - it was xylazine which isn't anesthesia but is a sedative. They routinely use it in horses for dentals.


Yes, but a goat kid is not a horse. You're talking about a 1000 lb. animal vs. a 50 pound animal. I know what xylazine is and how it works, and it's not commonly used in goats because it is risky. Some vets may be willing to use it, but just to be on the safe side I would stick with banding if I were you!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Xlyazine is safe _and_ recommended for goats - Texas Tech University :: Animal Care & Use ::
_Xylazine (Rompun) Goats

0.05 mg/kg IV

0.10 mg/kg IM_

Elsevier

_Use of Rompun® was evaluated on five Sokoto Red goats weighing 12–23 kg. The experiment showed an average onset of action of 7.0±3.11 min, while recovery period was 78.8±26.47 min. There were also changes in vital parameters, the rectal temperature declined from pre-injection 38.78±0.48°C to 37.24±0.68°C at 150 min post injection. Heart rate fell from pre-injection 87.8±10.42 beats/min to 64±12.92 beats/min at 30 min post injection. Respiratory rate fell from pre-injection 22.22±3.76/min to 14.6±2.76/min at 120 min post injection and returned to normal at 210 min post injection. Despite variation in weights all goats manifested similar clinical signs. From this work xylazine can be said to be a safe, effective and cheap drug for use as a sedative in goats._

I will always band if I catch them in time, but this was the next best thing 
I've used xylazine (and ace) in chemical capture (dogs) and also pre-euthansia and I also found it to be safe, but of course that is dogs.

However, I trust our "farm vets" and both used the drug and nobody here has had any adverse issues with the drug.
*******



> You look first, you palpate the joints, you see or feel something is off, and you recommend x-rays to make a definitive diagnosis. Which is exactly what the vet did.


This particular vet may have been a bit frustrated, as well, that the owner opted to not do x-rays, since the only way to really tell what's going on with a dog _is_ x-rays, or a CT scan or other imaging tests.
This owner has been to the same practice twice and apparently(??) declined x-rays both times so the vet's hands are tied at that point. 

It's rather like going to an auto mechanic and complaining that something is wrong "under the hood" then refusing to open the hood so the guy can look under it.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Freestep said:


> The upside of that is that if you happen to have a well-trained, well-behaved GSD of good breeding and good temperament, veterinarians will never cease to compliment you on how you have the nicest GSD they have ever seen, and they wish they could all be like that.


Totally! I get so many compliments about my dogs whenever I bring them to the vet. There was one time with Keefer (who is the sweetest, most affectionate, people-loving GSD ever!) when a tech was restraining him while another tech was trying to draw blood, and he snapped. He'd never done it before, and he knew both techs since they'd been there for years. They asked me if I wanted them to put a muzzle on him, and since his behavior surprised me and I couldn't predict that he wouldn't do it again, I said go ahead. I wasn't the slightest bit offended, no way do I want my dog to hurt someone - I'd feel terrible for the person, and I don't want my dog to have a bite record. If it were a new vet who didn't know me and didn't know my dogs, I would not take it personally at all. Better safe than sorry. 

There was only one other time that he snapped, and this was again during a blood draw. A different tech was restraining him while the vet was drawing the blood. Keefer has chihuahua veins, so it usually takes a couple of sticks, and sometimes only the vet himself can do it right, which is probably why he snaps. If I got poked with a needle several times to get a good vein, I might snap too! Anyway, he whipped his head around toward the tech, the vet asked "did he get you?", Mark said "no", got a better grip on him, and everyone calmly proceeded. No muzzle that time. 

Once in awhile they have a new vet to the practice, and if it's something routine and my usual vet isn't there I'll see a different one. If I don't like him, I make sure to ask for Dr. Schuchman the next time.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

ive changed vet practices just cause i cant stand the beast working at front desk lol

u have the money u do what u want there are a billion to choose from

no vet or person is allowed to go near my dog that even looks at it funny i would have just walked out


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Totally! I get so many compliments about my dogs whenever I bring them to the vet.


We got that a lot when Yaeger was alive, he even donated blood when we had a rat poison victim, and the vets raved about what a good dog he was.
I finally asked them if all the other GSDs were vicious or psycho or what?? They said "yes, they are!"
I thought it was sad.
I'd never own a dog I felt was a bite risk when I took him out and about


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

I chose the vet I have now because he has GSDs. I got so sick of hearing other vets say that they don't usually like GSDs, but that mine was the exception. My vet's wonderful, but even if he wasn't I'd probably stick with him because he knows the breed firsthand. 

PatchonGSD, I'm sorry Balen was treated like that. I had the exact opposite experience when I brought my just-adopted adult GSD into our clinic. A vet I'd never seen before took the appointment, and the first thing he asked me was if he needed a muzzle. I was honest and said I didn't know. The vet said he'd try without first and see how it went. He was great, and I always asked for him after that. I got lucky, I guess.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Despite my dog being ridiculous friendly and well behaved at the vet, I can't say I've gotten any breed specific comments such as "He's so well behaved and friendly for a german shepherd". I only get, "He's so well behaved and friendly." and that's it. Maybe german shepherds with temperament problems just aren't that common where I live?

I also think that if a dog is prone to biting the vet, wouldn't they have been put down? Or wouldn't that at least be on their vet records so the vet can check first? Being a vet doesn't mean that when a dog bites you it's any less serious than the dog biting a stranger, so if a dog was a biter wouldn't it be.... dead? I think the dog just being alive, having a bite-free history in its vet records, and the owner not mentioning anything about the dog being a biter are probably better reasons to judge whether or not the dog will bite you than its breed. A muzzle shouldn't be the go-to method of choice, dogs who are never muzzled can become completely unmanageable with them on. I doubt most dogs would hold still properly for vaccinations or an examination with a muzzle on if they've never been trained to wear one.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Syaoransbear said:


> I also think that if a dog is prone to biting the vet, wouldn't they have been put down?


That's a weird assumption. If vets put down every dog that tried to bite them in a clinic/hospital setting, there wouldn't be very many dogs left. It's more common than most people realize, but in a professional setting, the liability rests on the veterinarian, not the owner. In fact, if your own dog bites you while on the exam table, the veteriarian is liable! That's another good reason to muzzle if there is any question.

If a dog bites veterinary staff, it has to go into quarantine per the law, and there may or may not be a bite record. Muzzling a dog can avoid the whole mess, it's quick, simple, and doesn't hurt the dog. Most dogs do not resent having a muzzle put on, though they might try to take it off with their paws at first, oftentimes a muzzle will actually calm a dog down.

As a person who works with other people's dogs 9-5, 5 days a week, doing things to them they don't necessarily like (baths, clipping toenails, etc) I can honestly say I know what I'm talking about. I don't have to muzzle very many of my client dogs, because most of them are regulars and they know me, but I have a few that I automatically muzzle for certain things. Believe me, the pain and inconvenience of dealing with a dog bite is not worth it. I'm sorry, but I'd rather risk hurting someone's feelings by muzzling their dog, than risk getting bitten, possibly losing work time because of it, and having the dog go into quarantine at the owners' expense.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Not really, being examined by a vet is rather like the "provocation" that lets a dog off.
I did a/c and if I got bit in the course of loading up a dog, for instance, it doesn't count, unless I was there because the dog was dangerous and had already bitten.

Both of those scenarios are a lot different than walking down the street and being bitten for no reason at all.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Gjarrassic, we mainly do it for the ones where the owner comes in and says" this dog might bite" then we muzzle them. If we find them to be sweet and go along with what we do, then the muzzle comes off.
If we know a dog will bite, whether new or old client, they get muzzled. Period.. If we think they will bite, giving us signs they will bite, especially if a new dog, then yes we will muzzle, and it doesn't matter which breed, it just seems the "pit bulls" we see around here tend to be nasty towards people and animals and the two Chows we have as cliental are vicious... We have one GSD we muzzle, she also bites her owners but they "love" her like she is. The one Police K-9 we have is a lovebug, he will let us do anything and the worst problem we have from him is getting him off our laps. Lots of MinPins get muzzled automatically, also Shih tzu... You have to remember where I live in a country/farming type area and most owners know their dogs bite, but won't admit it, so we have to make snap decisions on our own.
I showed a young Bull Terrier for a few shows, trained him to ignore other dogs, do everything to be shown. He was such a goofy boy and loved the shows. Not long after he had done some winning, the owners decided to quit showing him, got a female and decided to breed Bullies... The last time I saw the dog was he came into the clinic sick,(after being treated at two other vet clinics)with TWO muzzles on him, during his exam he continued to bite the owner on the arms and hands and would have attacked us if he had not been muzzled. We did euthanize him, he got very sick and we could not save him and the owners chose to euthanize him.
I was dumbfounded, I would have never predicted that dog would have bit anyone. 
All dogs can bite at any point during a vet visit, so sometimes muzzling is for our protection as well as the dog and the owners.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

Our private records for clients are color coded and if there is a red tag on the file, we immediately know the dog bites and must be muzzled. No exceptions.


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

wyominggrandma is the police k9 a patrol dog or a drug sniffing dog?


my vet has been bitten by a few gsds he doesnt care though if they bite him as in he wont put them to sleep or anything he doesnt blame the dog he said a lot of dogs are just scared at the vets many get aggressive. He just said the pain is insane and he usually needs stiches. Biting a vet or a vet tech or a groomers i dont think counts as bite here in canada. They dont take it serious. Just means the dog has to be muzzle at the vets as far as i know.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

I have absolutely no problem telling the vet we have a 'nipper' or 'biter'. 
Recently took my folks' dog in for a visit and they had to poke, prod and inject and a fine needle biopsy and blood draw.
Since I do his nails, I know he'll bite, and told them right up front.
It is not an affront to me to have a dog muzzled. I won't be all brave and get bitten myself, because life is just too short as it is.

We had a previously abused little Chi type last winter and he was automatically a bite risk because he bit me (through leather gloves) for three days straight until he realized biting would not get him left alone. 

Maybe having done a/c and been realistic about dogs puts me in another perspective, I don't know.

The dog I mentioned much earlier, I had a feeling when I _met_ her she'd be a biter, and she proved me right


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Freestep said:


> That's a weird assumption. If vets put down every dog that tried to bite them in a clinic/hospital setting, there wouldn't be very many dogs left. It's more common than most people realize, but in a professional setting, the liability rests on the veterinarian, not the owner. In fact, if your own dog bites you while on the exam table, the veteriarian is liable! That's another good reason to muzzle if there is any question.
> 
> If a dog bites veterinary staff, it has to go into quarantine per the law, and there may or may not be a bite record. Muzzling a dog can avoid the whole mess, it's quick, simple, and doesn't hurt the dog. Most dogs do not resent having a muzzle put on, though they might try to take it off with their paws at first, oftentimes a muzzle will actually calm a dog down.
> 
> As a person who works with other people's dogs 9-5, 5 days a week, doing things to them they don't necessarily like (baths, clipping toenails, etc) I can honestly say I know what I'm talking about. I don't have to muzzle very many of my client dogs, because most of them are regulars and they know me, but I have a few that I automatically muzzle for certain things. Believe me, the pain and inconvenience of dealing with a dog bite is not worth it. I'm sorry, but I'd rather risk hurting someone's feelings by muzzling their dog, than risk getting bitten, possibly losing work time because of it, and having the dog go into quarantine at the owners' expense.


But you know that those dogs will bite you, this vet just assumed because it was a german shepherd. Do you muzzle every new client or do you feel them out first?

And even if the dog doesn't have a legal bite record, wouldn't the vet put it in the dog's vet records that it's a biter, just like how they put other random notes about the dog for their own reference?



msvette2u said:


> Not really, being examined by a vet is rather like the "provocation" that lets a dog off.
> I did a/c and if I got bit in the course of loading up a dog, for instance, it doesn't count, unless I was there because the dog was dangerous and had already bitten.
> 
> Both of those scenarios are a lot different than walking down the street and being bitten for no reason at all.


We must just have different laws because I don't think that would work here. While the dog wouldn't be put down, it would be deemed 'vicious' and it would need to be muzzled in public at all times and have an escape-proof kennel built for it if it's an outside dog. Even if it was provoked.

I've also never had a vet or groomer suggest to muzzle my dog just because, so I'm pretty sure the liability falls on the owner where I live :shrug:. When I worked at a petstore whenever a dog would snap or attempt to bite the groomer, the groomers would just call the owner to come pick it up and not perform the grooming service.


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## wyominggrandma (Jan 2, 2011)

The K-9 is used as both a patrol dog and drug dog. He is a belgian import.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> We must just have different laws because I don't think that would work here. While the dog wouldn't be put down, it would be deemed 'vicious' and it would need to be muzzled in public at all times and have an escape-proof kennel built for it if it's an outside dog. Even if it was provoked.


I have no clue about Canadian laws, but if a dog bites "unprovoked" here in the states, at least here where I live, but the law is similar elsewhere, then it can be declared dangerous or potentially dangerous.

But if the dog was provoked - and I'd say doing painful things to a dog in a vet clinic is "provocation"- then the law may not address that.

But here's another thought entirely - would you want to bring your dog to a vet who jabbed a needle into a dog, the dog nipped or bit, and you were told your dog is now going to die??
How many people would frequent that vet??
1) vets need to either muzzle or know the dog well enough to know it won't bite when painful things are done;
2) the owner needs to trust the vet and not be pissy if the vet wants to muzzle.

I chipped a couple's dog yesterday upon request and it was small; I automatically muzzled the dog. If the dog bit me, that'd be _my_ fault, would it not? I was doing something painful to the dog, and the dog is within it's "rights" to bite, at that point.
It stands to reason! 
I'd never bring my dog to a vet who wanted to do a painful procedure, then my dog nipped or bit the vet and the vet arbitrarily put it to sleep.
Something tells me that vet isn't going to be in business very long!!

A vet that has no clue when to muzzle a dog is not a good vet, IMO.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I prefer muzzled and safe, unless I know the dog is bullet proof and have known the dog for a long time. 

We had once a problem with a female whom the vet's office did not muzzle for a nail clip even after being asked by the owners. The dog had a cyst on the paw and was touchy about her feet being handled. We even put it in the adoption contract that she should be muzzled for a nail clip. The owners took her in and asked the office to muzzle her. The staff took the dog in the back and did not muzzle her ( she is sweet otherwise). Somebody did get nipped, they reported the bite to animal control, declared the dog dangerous, animal control came to the home, total circus. This can be avoided so easily by muzzling the dog.
Of course, the owners changed the vet.

Well I have to hide, we have a tornado warning in the area.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

How is Balen doing today!

Regardless of the vets crass/insensitive comments about future concerns, keep in mind that he is a conventional vet and this is a young dog...with the right nutrition and minimal toxins, then disease (most) can be prevented

And as Hippocrates said ~ Let food be thy medicine and let medicine be thy food

Incidently, the Hippocratic Oath (in human medicine), named after Hippocrates, is what doctors swear to...ironic, no? 

Food for thought


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## Jo Ellen (Aug 30, 2011)

Dang, I love my vet even more reading this. No mention of a muzzle at all, and no lectures. Everyone there was completely enamored with him. I heard about a couple of negative experiences, but overall the entire staff was very receptive to the breed.

I'll have to let them know how much I appreciate them the next time we go in.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Syaoransbear said:


> But you know that those dogs will bite you, this vet just assumed because it was a german shepherd. Do you muzzle every new client or do you feel them out first?


I am pretty good at reading dogs; if I think the dog is going to bite, I absolutely muzzle. Fortunately, that doesn't happen often.

However, as a groomer, I get to pick and choose my clients, and I don't take certain breeds because of their tendency to bite. Most veterinarians don't have this luxury--they pretty much have to take whoever walks in. If I worked in a place that groomed Chows, I would automatically muzzle every Chow until they proved themselves trustworthy to me.



> And even if the dog doesn't have a legal bite record, wouldn't the vet put it in the dog's vet records that it's a biter, just like how they put other random notes about the dog for their own reference?


Yes. What is the point?


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## wink-_-wink (Aug 12, 2012)

My first comment is that I would love to know how your puppy is doing!! Hope he is well! I read this and just became that much more thankful for the wonderful people at the 3 different vet hospitals I have been to with Hero.(preliminary check up, emergency, and his regular vet) I have nothign but great things to say about our vets!! When Hero comes strutting in the office, there is almost a battle royal over which tech gets to see him first, who can hold him and be in the exam room with him. The girls at the preliminary vet were in love with him! Now I don't know if it is because his vet is in a military community or that his main vet is military personel, but they all love him. I like going to the vet on base because this is the same vet that works on/with the military working dogs which AMAZE me! I am sorry you had such a bad expeerience but I hope the pup is well and you are able to move past all this!


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## KatsMuse (Jun 5, 2012)

Lucy Dog said:


> He's probably had bad experiences with GSD's in the past. There are tons a piss poor temperament GSD's out there and he's probably come across a few as a vet. Maybe was bit by a few and has a fear of them now. Probably just using a muzzle for his own protection and peace of mind. Not an excuse for rudeness, but I'm guessing that's where he's coming from...


I agree with this. I go to the 24/7 ER vet clinic here and they have four different vets. Some have had bad experiences with GSDS. two use muzzles, the other two don't. 
I try to schedule regular appts. with two that like my GSDs...actually, one of them LOVES my dog!
For emergencies, I have no choice. But, they are the best vet care/facility here.
(If you're a regular client they don't charge extra for night/weekend/holiday visits.)

The rudeness..well, I'd just let that go through one ear and out the other. No excuse for that. Could be he had a bad day, hates his job or is just rude in general. 

IMO, as long as my dog is taken care of, I don't care.
Kat


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

Jo Ellen said:


> Dang, I love my vet even more reading this. No mention of a muzzle at all, and no lectures. Everyone there was completely enamored with him. I heard about a couple of negative experiences, but overall the entire staff was very receptive to the breed.
> 
> I'll have to let them know how much I appreciate them the next time we go in.


Me too! Even the new vet that helps out has earned my trust and respect. I've heard a few negative things about the new guy by some, but my 3 visits with him have all gone very well. Tuke was showing signs of fear aggression on our first visit with him. He wanted Tuke to trust him and worked with her until she relaxed. No muzzle (even though I thought it would have been a good idea at the time). Now, because of the "trust building" he preformed with her she had no problems with him at all at during the next 2 visits. He is a GSD owner and is determined to win her over and judging by our 3rd visit I'd say he's done it. She is still disgusted with the thermometer though.


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## Xenas mom (Jul 26, 2012)

I guess I was very fortunate, my girl was always an amazingly good patient at the vet, even when they rotated her hips and gave her shots...the worst thing she ever did was lick the vet once right in the eye while being poked somewhere she didn't like - and licked the poor vets' contact lens right out of her eye!!

...the look on my poor dogs face "ZOMG what IS that in my mouth?!?!"  was priceless.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

I have a great vet who knows german shepherds as a breed very well. He has never muzzled any of my dogs because he knows my dogs. The only thing that bothers me about him is he has no after hours care.


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## Jelpy (Nov 8, 2009)

I've been lucky with my vets. The last time Lycan went to a strange vet, the man got down on the ground and played with the silly boof. 


jelpy


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Nigel said:


> Tuke was showing signs of fear aggression on our first visit with him. He wanted Tuke to trust him and worked with her until she relaxed. No muzzle (even though I thought it would have been a good idea at the time). Now, because of the "trust building" he preformed with her she had no problems with him at all at during the next 2 visits.


This is the approach I like to take, too. I won't hesitate to muzzle if I think the dog is going to bite me, but I like to give a little bonding and trust-building time before I start doing things to a dog. Just a minute or two of petting, talking, chest-scratching, etc. can go a long way. I haven't been bitten in a long time.

Of course, now that I say that...


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## pets4life (Feb 22, 2011)

with the amount of money we are dishing out the vets and vet techs better show some respect lol


my dog gets touchy sometimes at the vets and then i get nervous so we think for some stuff muzzle is best even tho shes never tried to bite, If i am nervous i dont want her to feed off of that.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

pets4life said:


> with the amount of money we are dishing out the vets and vet techs better show some respect lol


That was kinda my thinking, lol.

Anyway, for those that asked, Balen is doing OK. We are getting his xrays this week, I'm making that wonderful bone stock recipe from Gatorbytes, and waiting on a special supplement shipment from another member here.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I've been to many different vets and have never run into these kinds of issues. Had an issue with one vet tech that a complaint to the office manager solved. So I have to ask.... Are there really that many obnoxious vets out there or are we taking things a bit too personally?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

PatchonGSD said:


> That was kinda my thinking, lol.
> 
> Anyway, for those that asked, Balen is doing OK. We are getting his xrays this week, I'm making that wonderful bone stock recipe from Gatorbytes, and waiting on a special supplement shipment from another member here.


I trust they will be anesthetising her...Just to be on the safe side...you should mention you DO NOT want and pre-anesthestisia drugs that are on the NO list or CAUTION list for MDR1 mutation. This can have serious consequences that could result in seizure and/or even death.

Just an FYI....here is a story online...it provides list of NO and Suspect drugs. A DNA test can be done, but another member said it took two weeks to come back...so stay safe, especially since she was malnourished when you got her.

busteralert.org

and Gingers story re: Ivermecton reaction and MDR1 mutation (WSU is wher the test is done)
VCPL at Washington State University.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> I trust they will be anesthetising her...Just to be on the safe side...you should mention you DO NOT want and pre-anesthestisia drugs that are on the NO list or CAUTION list for MDR1 mutation. This can have serious consequences that could result in seizure and/or even death.


How many GSDs have the MDR1 mutation?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Breeds of dogs affected with the mutant MDR1 gene. Information from the VCPL at Washington State University.
Only 10%...

Balen is a male dog, btw. 

How's his behavior been, Patchon, were you able to implement some of the "mind games"?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

And one more question from the crowd - why not wait until his neuter to do his hip x-rays so that way he only has to be sedated/uncomfortable once? 

You can act as if he has some issues in the couple of months you wait, and then if you find out nothing is wrong, no harm is done. 

Cheaper, faster, easier on the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> *And one more question from the crowd - why not wait until his neuter to do his hip x-rays so that way he only has to be sedated/uncomfortable once?
> *
> You can act as if he has some issues in the couple of months you wait, and then if you find out nothing is wrong, no harm is done.
> 
> Cheaper, faster, easier on the dog.


This is the perfect solution


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> And one more question from the crowd - why not wait until his neuter to do his hip x-rays so that way he only has to be sedated/uncomfortable once?
> 
> You can act as if he has some issues in the couple of months you wait, and then if you find out nothing is wrong, no harm is done.
> 
> Cheaper, faster, easier on the dog.


That's what I said somewhere down the line!!!!

10% is just a number and not reason to negate the issue. In fact I read recently that 10% is the estimated number OF reported, so if 1000 dogs have a reaction - then the real #'s are 10,000.

Besides, drug, vaccine reactions are WAY under-reported....sure these numbers are WAY higher...


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

msvette2u said:


> Breeds of dogs affected with the mutant MDR1 gene. Information from the VCPL at Washington State University.
> Only 10%...
> 
> Balen is a male dog, btw.
> ...


I have been doing the mind games with him, and even with Chloe. I can definitely tell a difference in both, but it has helped Balen. He seems more relaxed now, not that he was high strung to begin with.....I guess "comfortable" is a better word. I do the mind games with him just about every chance I get through out the day, and at lunch, since thats when he gets all kibble, I use that to work on his obedience. He is really starting to like that I think, he gets more excited, faster, and "snappier" with his commands. 

I also cracked down more on doing the two week shutdown with some minor modifications. We dont have crates, we have "spots" in the house for the dogs, so what would normally be crate time is his "spot" time. I tried leashing him to me in the house, but we have clothes lined my two year old twice. :crazy: So I just call Balen to follow me, which he does anyway. Hope that is close enough to still work. It seems to be.





JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> And one more question from the crowd - why not wait until his neuter to do his hip x-rays so that way he only has to be sedated/uncomfortable once?
> 
> You can act as if he has some issues in the couple of months you wait, and then if you find out nothing is wrong, no harm is done.
> 
> ...


We were getting the xrays done this week because thats what the vet suggested. If we waited a couple more months, and say it was dysplasia or a spinal injury, or anything other than pano, shouldnt we know asap so we can deal with it asap? Would it make a difference if we waited?


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

GatorBytes said:


> 10% is just a number and not reason to negate the issue. In fact I read recently that 10% is the estimated number OF reported, so if 1000 dogs have a reaction - then the real #'s are 10,000.


Where are you getting this information? Or are you just making a guess?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

PatchonGSD said:


> We were getting the xrays done this week because thats what the vet suggested. If we waited a couple more months, and say it was dysplasia or a spinal injury, or anything other than pano, shouldnt we know asap so we can deal with it asap? Would it make a difference if we waited?


If it is HD, the first line of defense is supplement and fish oil. You can start that now anyways. If it's pano, it's self limiting and will eventually go away from my understanding. Contact Jane (OnyxGirl) and ask her what the treatment for pano is. I think it's just added vitamin C, pain killers (maybe), anti inflammatory...basically supplement and fish oil.

Why would you think it's a spinal injury? Do you suspect an injury to the leg itself? He had no reaction to an exam so I would doubt an injury or HD that would be severe enough to warrant immediate attention. My girl reacted to exam for her mild HD and for her torn ACL.

Although...I would love to see his hip xrays come back good and prove your vet wrong!


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Freestep said:


> Where are you getting this information? Or are you just making a guess?


No, I read somewhere...have to search my stuff.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> We were getting the xrays done this week because thats what the vet suggested. If we waited a couple more months, and say it was dysplasia or a spinal injury, or anything other than pano, shouldnt we know asap so we can deal with it asap? Would it make a difference if we waited?


A neuter takes maybe 15 min. If he's healthy enough to withstand anesthesia for x-rays he's healthy enough for neuter.
It can't hurt him to do it and it just may help w/some of the obedience stuff you're working on.
It gets the hormones out of the equation, anyway :thumbup:


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> Why would you think it's a spinal injury? Do you suspect an injury to the leg itself? He had no reaction to an exam so I would doubt an injury or HD that would be severe enough to warrant immediate attention. My girl reacted to exam for her mild HD and for her torn ACL.
> 
> Although...I would love to see his hip xrays come back good and prove your vet wrong!


I dont really think its a spinal injury-thats just what others have suggested that could be a possible cause. I guess you cant rule out anything 100% until you get xrays, right?

I would love to see good hip x rays too, that would be a huge relief.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I agree that you should see if he can have his neuter and his x-rays at the same time, either this week, or maybe in the next couple of weeks. If it were my dog, that's what I'd do. Saves money, time, and stress on the dog.

You can proceed now as though he has dysplasia or pano, I think the course of action is the same for both (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Supplement with fish oil, glucosamine/chondroitin, vitamin C, MSM, pain meds, whatever your vet suggests. Moderate his exercise. Walks and swimming are good, try to avoid stairs, hard running or jumping. 

If his x-rays come up clear, you haven't hurt anything. If they come up with dysplasia or pano, you're already ahead on treatment.


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

Freestep said:


> I agree that you should see if he can have his neuter and his x-rays at the same time, either this week, or maybe in the next couple of weeks. If it were my dog, that's what I'd do. Saves money, time, and stress on the dog.
> 
> You can proceed now as though he has dysplasia or pano, I think the course of action is the same for both (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Supplement with fish oil, glucosamine/chondroitin, vitamin C, MSM, pain meds, whatever your vet suggests. Moderate his exercise. Walks and swimming are good, try to avoid stairs, hard running or jumping.
> 
> If his x-rays come up clear, you haven't hurt anything. If they come up with dysplasia or pano, you're already ahead on treatment.


What sort of fish oil? Vet didnt mention that. He is on human grade glucosamine/chondroitin.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

I use human-grade fish oil capsules, I get them very cheaply at Costco. My dogs really like the taste and so I just plop them on top of their food, or they will take them like treats. You can also puncture the capsule with a pin and squeeze the oil onto the food. 

There is also pet-grade salmon oil available in a pump bottle, but you should only buy as much as you can use up within a month or so, otherwise you run the risk of the oil going rancid. That is why I prefer the capsules--I think they are more stable and keep longer.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I agree with doing it all at once if you can, (I didn't realize he wasn't neutered,,

Since I'm more "up" on the MDR1 thing when it comes to aussies, since I have one who is 'mutant/mutant', I do know 1/3 of all aussies carry the gene in some form.

I do know it's much lower for gsd's, but not the exact number. Honestly, I only tested one of my gsd's for it, as he was going on some heavy duty drugs at the time, he was clear, and again, honestly, I probably won't test any of my other gsd's, because the rate of it in gsd's is so low. The only time I'd test is if I had some major health issue going on.

My vet uses propofol (as an anesthia) when doing quick things, like speuters/xray, they come out of it faster with no lingering after effects. I've had propofol myself, and tho it's a little weird the first maybe hour, after that I'm perfectly fine

I know you want to know xray results sooner than later, but I'd probably do as others suggests get him on some good supplements, build him up some more, and do it all at once...of course it's your call


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Just tossing this out there, too, we like "NEXT LEVEL" glucosamine supplement as it has some very essential things like Vit. C in it already.

Farnam Next Level Equine Joint Fluid, 32 oz. - 5031682 | Tractor Supply Company

Also along the MDR1 genetic thing, I have safely used ivermectin in our own GSD and also our foster dogs from time to time.
Some folks are quite staunchly anti-_any_ "drug", but if used as directed and within reason, ivermectin is one of the safest dewormers out there (also used in humans) and also safely used in heart worm meds and given for mange as well.

MDR1 is fairly rare in most breeds, even in GSDs.


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## Draugr (Jul 8, 2011)

Sorry for the late jump-in, but, wanted to say:



> Young guy, seemed nice until he saw Balen come around the check in desk, and he immediately said, *"oh, its a GSD. Grab a muzzle."* to the vet tech.


That's the point where I would have immediately turned around and left.

_Nobody_ treats my dog like that unless they have legitimate reason (like aggressive or fearful behavior) to expect he'll bite.

Sorry you had such a bad experience. Sounds like you have gotten good advice here though and you know where to go from here . I didn't go through all 12 pages but I hope you got things sorted out with that office. If there are different vets there you could just request to see the one that has been respectful.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One thing to remember when supplementing with vitamin C and giving aspirin. In humans, C will affect the absorption of aspirin and cause it to build up in the system. Not sure if dogs absorb differently as their digestive tract is shorter.That said, if you give aspirin for pain management be careful of the C conflict. 

I think it has to be a high aspirin dosage that is more of an issue. 
_Aspirin
Aspirin is removed by the body through the kidneys and in the urine. Some scientists have raised concern that vitamin C might decrease how the body removes aspirin and could potentially increase the amount of aspirin in the body. There is concern that this could increase the chance of aspirin-related side effects. However, some research suggests that this is not an important concern and that vitamin C does not interact in a meaningful way with aspirin. Some research actually suggests that taking vitamin C with buffered aspirin might decrease the stomach irritation caused by aspirin. More evidence is needed about this possible benefit._
taken from this site: Vitamin C (Ascorbic acid): MedlinePlus Supplements


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## PatchonGSD (Jun 27, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> One thing to remember when supplementing with vitamin C and giving aspirin. In humans, C will affect the absorption of aspirin and cause it to build up in the system. Not sure if dogs absorb differently as their digestive tract is shorter.That said, if you give aspirin for pain management be careful of the C conflict.
> 
> I think it has to be a high aspirin dosage that is more of an issue.
> _Aspirin
> ...


Thanks for this info!


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## Rerun (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm sorry, I didn't read all 12 pages. I know you're in my area, but if you are still looking for a vet (I use a regular vet, I wouldn't say he's "holistic") I am happy to give a GSD (and Mal, since I have one of those as well, LOL) vet. But he's actually a bit of a drive for me as he's in Sheridan. Well worth the drive.

Shepherd friendly place though, I've never had a single problem with my GSD's and Malinois there and they have never been muzzled there. My dogs are VERY good with vets and I'm comfortable handling them, but it doesn't sound like yours had any issues and they muzzled him anyway which I wouldn't have allowed.


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