# Help needed working with a Dutch Shepherd Puppy



## ponyfarm

I assist in a puppy school for pet obedience. One of the customers has a Dutch Shepherd that she admits/boasts that came from a breeder that breeds for "hard" dogs. The pup will not allow anyone to touch it without attempting to nail our hand, with serious intent. This little guy is about 12 weeks, but I don't want my hands torn up each week. 

The owner said no one else but her can touch it! One problem I have is that she actually did not see anything wrong with that! And the owner is covered with bites, including her neck..she admits it goes for her with intent as well. NOt the typical play bite/german shepherd bite that we usually see!

I would like to hear if any of you have trained a dutch shepherd. What works with such a reactive breed? Can we make him accepting of us?


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## Jax08

Wow. I talked to a DS owner and she told me that it's hard to find a good breeder here in the states because of things like this. Have you considered contacting the DS rescue (think there is only one here in the states) and see what kind of temperament they find? Or your local Schutzhund club to see if they are familiar with DS's? That's where I would start. I think they would have the most experience.

There are a couple people here who have DS's but I can not remember their names!


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## WVGSD

During the past year I have been involved with the rescue of two different groups of Dutch Shepherds from local shelters. There was also a recent additional rescue/seizure of seven Dutchies and three Mals from a breeder within driving distance from me as well. The folks at National Dutch Shepherd Rescue are fantastic and would be a great source of information and guidance.


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## Liesje

Might want to contact Falon (I think her username is FG167), she has experience with Dutch shepherds and this sort of thing.


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## JakodaCD OA

this is a ticking time bomb unless someone can get a handle on the owner and the puppy


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## Jax08

Diane - who is the member with the dutchie that went to Holland to get him? She has Belgian Shepherds as well.


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## Gretchen

What you described is not typical of the Dutch Shepherds I have met. Our GSD breeder also breeds Dutch Shepherds. The ones I met seemed very well socialized, nice dogs. In that way they seemed easier than a GSD, but they seemed to have higher energy.


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## Liesje

All ones I've met have been monsters (some to a higher degree than others).


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## Jax08

The one girl I met was nice. She wasn't crazy about other dogs and seemed a little clingy but she was far from bad.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

ponyfarm said:


> I assist in a puppy school for pet obedience. One of the customers has a Dutch Shepherd that she admits/boasts that came from a breeder that breeds for "hard" dogs. The pup will not allow anyone to touch it without attempting to nail our hand, with serious intent. This little guy is about 12 weeks, but I don't want my hands torn up each week.
> 
> The owner said no one else but her can touch it! One problem I have is that she actually did not see anything wrong with that! And the owner is covered with bites, including her neck..she admits it goes for her with intent as well. NOt the typical play bite/german shepherd bite that we usually see!
> 
> I would like to hear if any of you have trained a dutch shepherd. What works with such a reactive breed? Can we make him accepting of us?


Well, none of that sounds pleasant and worse, if that's what she wants him to do, that's what he is going to do. 

SO - IF she will allow it - I almost think from reading she doesn't want him to stop - is that true? I would do the whole systematic desensitization thing with him, starting way back and rewarding (clicking - I know people love to hear THAT!) and treating for positive behaviors, doing that whole deal with him. I would even consider a muzzle (I don't know - maybe - certainly up for discussion!). 

How does the puppy respond to praise, food, toys, otherwise? In other words, does he seem motivated in any way by things outside of biting? 

Is the touching dislike a sensory thing, a space thing, not being used to it, or other? NO comparison, but my sarcoptic mange foster went a week or so without a lot of touching by me and was very mouthy when I resumed touching more again. He needed to be acclimated to touch again. Because he is on a very clear cycle of being touched, biting, being touched less, to the point of having an adult dog who is unable to be touched, no matter the why. 

MAN! Don't you wish you could ghost of dog future her so she could see the day when the dog hurts someone and her having to do the unthinkable...if she doesn't turn it around...I wonder if there are any videos of dogs failing evaluations for lack of bite inhibition to show her.


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## Muskeg

I know a couple dutchies and have a malinois myself. 

This is NOT a solid temperament for the breed. Being a "maligator" is one thing, but biting eveyone and everything in sight with "intent" that is a problem. 

The owner here is the biggest issue. Why did she get this dog? A "hard" dog can mean different things to different people. To me, it means the dog can take correction without lowering drive level for a tug/sleeve whatever. It shouldn't mean the dog is trying to nail everyone it sees. 

A dog for protection should be aloof or have been trained to be aloof. He/she should only attack on command or under specific circumstances and should be able to greet friendly people if given to OK. It can be a bit more difficult to get "aloof" with a reactive breed like a dutch or malinois. But I've seen it. The dutch shep in our club is crazy for the sleeve but couldn't care less about anyone or any other dog. That is a good hardness for sport or work and is fitting with the breed standard.

This dog is a serious liability and the owner sounds like she is clueless and might enjoy having a mean dog or one that nobody else can handle. The dog should probably be a working dog and not have to deal with social "pet dog" situations. Some MWD or drug detection dogs are pretty 'nervy' but they get the job done. Ideally, of course, a belgian shep would be aloof and not nervy and still have high drive for work.


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## ponyfarm

The pup did allow our trainer to give it a treat, he did not look at it while he knelt down to treat it. The biting or I am going to call it attacking, because thats just what it did..was before I even touched it. 

I have grown up taking care of big cats, I can read animals, this pup has the attitude of "you are going down!" This pup sits very still , and then bam, it goes after you. Yes, it will end up biting someone!

I would like to offer suggestions to this owner, if she is accepting, of that I am not sure. Our trainer seemed to think they were going to do what they wanted.


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## selzer

Boy, maybe this won't be well received here, but I don't know, I just don't feel like we are bound to help everyone whether they want the help or not. 

What everyone said, yes, the dog will be a ticking time bomb, this isn't normal temperament for the breed -- well, how does that help someone who is trying to train someone and her dog, when they do not see this as an issue? The suggestion to contact a rescue for advice is good, I hope they have something better than my advice.

My advice would be to the trainer. If I had someone who is allowing that kind of biting, and doesn't have a problem with the dog biting anyone, well me and whoever I had working with me would be suffering bites. That isn't ok, so I would tell the person that she needs to deal with the biting or not bring the dog back. If she wants help with dealing with the issue, let me know, and I will put her in touch with a behaviorist, or give her some links, or give her a contact to the Dutch Shepherd Rescue -- whatever. 

But sometimes it takes something drastic for people to realize that whittle fwuffy-poo isn't just so cute and sweet. And telling her point blank that unless she starts dealing with the issue, she is not welcome to bring the dog in for training, might just jar her enough to consider it. Probably not, but maybe. 

If people are trying to deal with an issue like that, it is a totally different story.


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## Liesje

Normal for the breed or not it is what it is. If the dog were a perfect example of the breed then I'm sure the person would not need help. I still say contact Falon. She went through a lot with her Dutch Shepherd and I'm sure can speak directly to these issue and who she worked with.


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## ponyfarm

Liesje said:


> Normal for the breed or not it is what it is. If the dog were a perfect example of the breed then I'm sure the person would not need help. I still say contact Falon. She went through a lot with her Dutch Shepherd and I'm sure can speak directly to these issue and who she worked with.


Thanks! I will pm Falon! I remember her threads about her dutchie. 

This weeks class should be interesting. Our trainer usually has dogs do private training if they have issues. I havent talked to see what the next step is, but wanted to be somewhat knowledgeable if they show up !


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## FlyAway

Sounds like this person is way over his/her head. It is not normal for the breed, and is from selective breeding for IPO. If this person is not doing IPO, then they should return the dog. It's not going to end well.


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## onyx'girl

> It is not normal for the breed, and is from selective breeding for IPO


I wouldn't say it is selective for IPO but probably more for FR or PP.

If I were in your position ponyfarm, I'd suggest the owner contact Cheryl Carlsen for a proper eval on the pup. This is not something a few weekly training sessions is going help the handler and pup. More than a pet ob class is necessary for these two.


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## BlackPuppy

Jax08 said:


> Diane - who is the member with the dutchie that went to Holland to get him? She has Belgian Shepherds as well.


That would be me. 

I don't have anything to say other than, this person is crazy to get a dog like that without prior experience dealing with that kind of temperament, or having a trainer already lined up. The breeder is at fault for selling the dog to somebody who is not going to SCH/IPO train it.

I am the Secretary of the new AKC Dutch Shepherd breed club and I can tell you that this is not normal for the breed (purebreds). I assume that there are GSDs that are also bred like this, too.

Sorry...eace:


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## Blitzkrieg1

You have to determine were the bite is coming from. Is it fear / insecurity, prey or rank drive. Some indicators I like to look for nothing listed is hard and fast each do is different.

Fear: Ears back, usually growls low and warns, hackles, shys, avoids etc.

Prey: Ears forward, excited, high pitched barks, always moves forward..basically its a big game. ex. Your hand moves it becomes prey chase bite / shake..back off bark bite again, pounces etc.

Rank: Food aggression, resource guarding, bites that seem to come out of the blue, forcing affection on the handler (pushes head into hand), likes to be on top of the handler, agressive play doesnt lose, ignores the handler.

The fact that he bites the handler makes me think rank or prey or maybe both.

A truly hard dog requires an extremely assertive owner anything less leads to a liability. Then again not a lot of dogs that people call hard are really all that bad..one of those terms people throw around a lot imo.

Im sure some more experienced members on here can tell you more. The owner does not sound too informed though so good luck..


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## JakodaCD OA

I think I might take this person aside and explain the HUGE liability this could be in the future if they continue down this path with this dog. That might light a fire under the owner, are they prepared to have their pants sued off them?

Feel bad for the puppy


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## Bubbles

Poor puppy  I was wondering even if this puppy was taken away from the owner if there is any way to turn it into a good dog ? I feel so bad . I just don't understand why people breed dogs just to fight and be aggressive.


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## ponyfarm

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You have to determine were the bite is coming from. Is it fear / insecurity, prey or rank drive. Some indicators I like to look for nothing listed is hard and fast each do is different.
> 
> Fear: Ears back, usually growls low and warns, hackles, shys, avoids etc.
> 
> Prey: Ears forward, excited, high pitched barks, always moves forward..basically its a big game. ex. Your hand moves it becomes prey chase bite / shake..back off bark bite again, pounces etc.
> 
> Rank: Food aggression, resource guarding, bites that seem to come out of the blue, forcing affection on the handler (pushes head into hand), likes to be on top of the handler, agressive play doesnt lose, ignores the handler.
> 
> The fact that he bites the handler makes me think rank or prey or maybe both.
> 
> A truly hard dog requires an extremely assertive owner anything less leads to a liability. Then again not a lot of dogs that people call hard are really all that bad..one of those terms people throw around a lot imo.
> 
> Im sure some more experienced members on here can tell you more. The owner does not sound too informed though so good luck..


Its a "rank" pup..no doubt about it.

The owner did relay to me that the breeder instructed them to make sure everything was black and white with pup or things would not go well. 

Looking forward to class this week..think I might pack my bite gloves..lol


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## Mary Beth

I wonder if the pup ever had any training on what is appropriate to bite on, and what is not. I'd have been all bit up from puppy Sting, if I hadn't taught him not to and showed him that biting is for his toys and his tug. Yes, if I were you, I'd wear bite gloves, long sleeves, heavy jeans and boots


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## Odin (not so scary)

*Odin*

Hello First Friend assistant,

Its a small world Id say considering I somehow came across this thread today!

I am the clueless/reckless puppy owner of the vicious 12 week old yes 12 week old puppy that was bred from imports in Holland in the KPNV training program. I bought him specifically for IPO (Schutzhund) and was going to train with him at Mike Diehls club which I visited several times with and with out Odin. 

First off lady you know nothing about me (period) secondly the reason I wasnt training Schutzhund and was at that training facility was because of Odins nasty behavior Thirdly how dare you say I bloated how hard of a dog he was at 12 weeks old and didnt seem concerned. 

FYI: Odin loves to be around people, he is very friendly and loving towards people, the only time there has ever been an issue is when he feels threatened or forced. I have never been bitten on the neck by my dog nor has he ever bitten me and actually bit me hard! He was a rough puppy he still is a rough puppy and he will still warn and nip he feels threatened. Is it handler issues, Im afraid not! Is it genetic? Probably! Is the breed? It is in the lines mine was bred for! 

Odin has completed novice training and is now doing Dock Diving and Nose Work at another facility. I did not switch because the trainer said " I was going to do whatever I wanted" not sure he did say that however bc this training facility only offered agility. I am also socializing him weekly as well as continuing his obedience at home. 

I had recently become ill and was struggling to keep up with Odin's energy level and hardheadedness at training in which class would run well into 1 1/2 hours some nights. I think that is alot to ask out of a pup at such a young age, but I maybe just a careless owner not sure you pick?

Ill post a pic of the beautiful guy for those of you who have had a dominant male of the litter pup with high prey/drive lines and understand where Im coming from by posting this response. 

BTW: I havent given up on the Schutzhund completely and as he matures he is getting much easier to handle, thank goodness because now at 71lbs hes a powerhouse at 7 1/2 months old!


Thanks
Becky


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## jae

oooh, e-drama.


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## Odin (not so scary)

I forgot 1 important thing, Odin is not a kennel dog he lives inside the house and has full run of the fenced backyard. I also do not work outside the home and very rarely leave this dog alone ever. If he were running loose would you have to be concerned approaching him, absolutely not. If you were to apply pressure to him to sit of pull his collar for a correction yes he will warn unless of corse you are his handler.


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## MadLab

Hey Odins mom,

I'm glad your still alive lol

I think the op was concerned for you and your pup and was entitled to post what she did. Maybe you were a bit hyped about getting this dog and a little unprepared.

These dutch shepards look like a handful. Something about them attracting my interest lately. Don't know what it is lol.

Happy to hear the pup is more calm now. 71 pounds is big for a 7 1/2 month dog. Looking forward to seeing a pic

Good luck


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