# training protection work for servce dogs



## AutismDogGirl (Oct 7, 2010)

IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


need to vent I am so angry and frustrated. this guy trains service dogs for kids and adults with all sorts of disabilities one specifically being autism. am I the only one who thinks this will end up hurting SDs n the long run? I can imagine t now

autistic kid is at the store with has mom and an old man r someone with a tic disorder or something walks by the kid and has the "wrong posture," or a tic and the dog freaks out because it is thought protection work d interrupted this as a threat..

am i the only one who this really upsets and frustrates??????????????? 

what can do?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

“The crime deterrent effects of an animal's presence” do not qualify that animal as a service animal and “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”


This part ... *“an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”*


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## AutismDogGirl (Oct 7, 2010)

ILGHAUS said:


> “The crime deterrent effects of an animal's presence” do not qualify that animal as a service animal and “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”
> 
> 
> This part ... *“an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”*



so it is illegal? 

please come on facebook chat if you can


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## AutismDogGirl (Oct 7, 2010)

so a dog who is train to be a servce dogg ie task to midigate a disability and protection work is not legaly a service dog?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Can't get into Facebook via this computer ... have to wait till tomorrow.

Meantime.

“an animal individually trained to provide *aggressive protection*, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”

The protection refered to by the Dept. of Justice is that such as a dog trained to keep its handler from wondering into traffic such as when coming out of a seizure and confused. Protection is never meant as to snarl, growl, show teeth, or try to bite someone. 

If someone is selling trained attack dogs via their website I would suggest calling the ADA Hotline and ask for guidance on how to report this. By doing so you do not have to become involved where this person knows who reported him.

If you are not comfortable doing this send me a PM and I'll do it for you. I think you may also have my email addy. If not remind me via PM and I'll make sure you have my contact info. 

*U.S. Department of Justice ADA Infoline*

Monday through Friday from 9:30 AM until 5:30 PM (eastern time) except on Thursday when the hours are 12:30 PM until 5:30 PM.

Spanish language service is also available.

For general ADA information, answers to specific technical questions, free ADA materials, or information about filing a complaint, call:
*1-800-514-0301 (voice)
1-800-514-0383 (TTY)*


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## AutismDogGirl (Oct 7, 2010)

ILGHAUS said:


> Can't get into Facebook via this computer ... have to wait till tomorrow.
> 
> Meantime.
> 
> ...


thank you! I sent you a message on here with a link to the thing that inspired this


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

One of the tasks for which a service dog is trained to assist an individual with can not be "for protection". For example, if I am a military veteran suffering from PTSD and have social anxeity and fear around strangers, I can not have a service dog trained to "protect me" from said strangers as a task for him to perform. 

ASDogGeek, I guess I don't understand. Is this "trainer" that you are referring to training Autism Support Dogs as personal protection dogs (PPD) for children receiving service/comanion dogs? 

I train my own service dogs, have fully trained 2 and am in the middle of training my 3rd. The tasks that they perform are retrieval, opening/closing doors, lights, pulling wheelchair, holding items/carrying items for long distances. I also participate in the sport of schutzhund, but do not consider that participation as having anything to do with the tasks that my dogs assist with. EVERY dog I have ever owned/trained has been of impeccable soundess in mind and has been in every public setting possible and has never once indicated anything other than complete acceptance of people (including, but not limited to, elderly, severely developmentally disabled, infants, school age children, different races, police, emergency medical professionals, etc). 

On the other hand, I would never train a dog for a client, either through my organization I work for or privately, to do either personal protection or schutzhund nor would I instruct anybody how to go about doing so.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

Hillary, I'm sending you via PM the link to this guy's website. I haven't had time to really get into it but it looks like he knows how to word everything to prey on the fears of people and still stay within the law.

Looks like he is located in CA and says his organization is a 501(c)(3). This just goes to show that even 501s need to be checked out and "buyer beware".

Statements like this can be concerning: " ... remain controlled,passive,and behaviorally stable,by the handler,but ready,in case further intervention is needed."

He also says he supplies these dogs to children.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Thanks...if the situation is as it sounds, and I will wait to read for myself if it is so, it could be quite reckless and/or dangerous.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Hillary_Plog said:


> One of the tasks for which a service dog is trained to assist an individual with can not be "for protection". For example, if I am a military veteran suffering from PTSD and have social anxeity and fear around strangers, I can not have a service dog trained to "protect me" from said strangers as a task for him to perform.
> 
> ASDogGeek, I guess I don't understand. Is this "trainer" that you are referring to training Autism Support Dogs as personal protection dogs (PPD) for children receiving service/comanion dogs?
> 
> ...


 
So, are your service dogs trained in ScH?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ASDogGeek said:


> IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> need to vent I am so angry and frustrated. this guy trains service dogs for kids and adults with all sorts of disabilities one specifically being autism. am I the only one who thinks this will end up hurting SDs n the long run? I can imagine t now
> ...


 
Are service dogs specifically trained NOT to protect their owner? 

If not, (and I doubt that they are), then would anyone expect a normal GSD trained as a service dog to protect their owner if the owner were attacked?


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

Cod....Hillary trains her own service dogs, and yes...she also trains in the sport of Schutzhund. Her "specific" dogs are capable of doing both. One venue is for what she "requires" of them to provide for her....and the other is what she "enjoys" doing with them, other than service work. Her dogs are extremely sound and are selected for the traits that she needs & wants. (yes they are SL dogs).
Because they are *true* GSD is both mind and soul, I have no doubt that they would be protective of her IF needed....but they are not "reactive" dogs, and are totally reliable in public anywhere.

She is much better equipped to explain further...but because the dogs are from our breeding's....I felt it was acceptable to partly answer.


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

> Are service dogs specifically trained NOT to protect their owner?


Part of picking a puppy or young dog (Candidate) is based on the temperament of the young dog. This is why most training organizations have gone to in-house breeding programs where they know the temperament and behaviour of parents, grandparents, older siblings, etc. 

Even with this early evaluation there are many SDITs who wash out of training as they age and through later evaluations. Sometimes it is for the reason that they are not of the proper temperament.

A Service Dog must be balanced and have a high threshold to react. 

Would any SD attack someone who is harming their handler? They may or may not. Would a SD which is a GSD attack someone who is harming their handler? Again may or may not. Same as with other GSDs - they are individuals. 

Is a SD trained to attack? NO. Would it affect the future of a SD if they attacked someone? Probably. That is why some states have extra penalties against people who interfere (which of course would include harming the handler) or harm a SD including paying the cost of evaluation and re-training or the purchase of a new dog. This and jail time would be in addition to the sentence based on assult or battery of the handler under state statutes.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

robinhuerta said:


> Cod....Hillary trains her own service dogs, and yes...she also trains in the sport of Schutzhund. Her "specific" dogs are capable of doing both. One venue is for what she "requires" of them to provide for her....and the other is what she "enjoys" doing with them, other than service work.
> 
> She is much better equipped to explain further...but because the dogs are from our breeding's....I felt it was acceptable to partly answer.


That sounds great that there are GSD's capable of doing both! Congrats to both of you!

Wonder what the business owners that she takes her service dogs into would think if they could see her dog(s) doing protection work? Not to mention the other occupants of those places?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think it comes down to how you define "protection" when it comes to Service Dogs.

When we talk about Police Dogs or even the sport of Schutzhund, we associate protection work with snarling, barking, and generally acting aggressive toward someone. But at the same time, many Service Dogs are taught tasks that help "protect" their handler - such as PSDs trained to place themselves as a barrier between the handler and other people, just to give one example.

I don't know which trainer we're talking about or what kind of protection work they're talking about, but if it's the latter type, where the dog basically acts as a barrier and/or alert system for the handler, I see no problem with it. If the dog is trained to, on command or on another cue (like a person moving toward the handler, for example), act aggressively (bark, lunge, etc.) then I see a huge problem with this.

This isn't, by chance, the same trainer as the one in this story --> http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...36-came-across-article-seizure-alert-dog.html


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## robinhuerta (Apr 21, 2007)

I don't know....but she *educates* people every day on what her dogs do for her...and what makes a sound dog for service work....she also easily explains the *sport* of Schutzhund.
She is quite a special person, and highly intelligent...I'm sure she could answer any question asked of her.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

I think its wonderful that Hilary does ScH with her service dogs. A dog that is stable enough to be a service dog, is stable enough to be a protection dog as well. I wouldn't recommend everyone with service dogs go do protection work, because its not necessary and for a hard working dog it might be too much to be involved in a competitive sport such as ScH or agility during off hours. But this is Hilary's chosen hobby that both her dog and her enjoy. 

However if this thread is about who I think it is... What he is doing is wrong, very wrong. And Hilary is personally training her dogs in protection, she did the training and she handles the continuous training. Putting protection work on a dog and handing it over to a disabled child is very sick and just asking for trouble.

Chris, not that trainer... I'll pm you who they're taking about


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

That could be very dangerous to train a dog to bite that is going to be in the public so much as I imagine many service dogs. And I agree, an absolute disaster waiting to happen if the handler is not capable of cvontrolling the dog.

And imagine the publicity if a service dog did act in protection and bit somebody - headlines = "Attack trained Dog bites!"


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

codmaster said:


> That sounds great that there are GSD's capable of doing both! Congrats to both of you!
> 
> Wonder what the business owners that she takes her service dogs into would think if they could see her dog(s) doing protection work? Not to mention the other occupants of those places?


As a part of my job for the service dog organizations that I have worked for, I speak publicly and educate society about service dog awareness, in addition to doing disability awareness through public speaking venues. 
I am always very open about my vast training experience, both with training other people's dogs for service work and as an obedience instructor, as well as my own in AKC obed, schutzhund and service work. I have never once gotten anything other than openness, gratitute and blessings. 

Through these opportunities I demonstrate to people/children what a service dog can/does accomplish for individuals with disabilities such as retreiving, open/close doors, etc. Often times, I get asked "will a service dog protect the person that they are with" or "does your service dog get protective" (even when I have a labrador with me)? My answer to the first question is always "I don't know...service dogs are specifically trained to be friendly with and accept all types of people, but at the end of the day they are dogs and I can not predict all situations". My answer to the second question is always, "No.". 

Because I participate in Schutzhund does not make my dog anything other than a more utilitarian working animal. He is not aggressive, he is not unreliable, and he is not more protective over me. I protect my dogs and it is not their "job" to scare bad people away. They perform multiple taskes for me that assist with my disability, they ALSO perform in the obedience ring and the schutzhund field. These are "sports" where the dog understands what is *expected* of him, when I enter the ring...or the field, and what is *expected* of him when I leave either one.

Can EVERY GSD do this? No. This is why I PAINSTAKINGLY work with Robin and Carlos to make sure that the dog I have is a profound and exemplary specimen of what sound temperament looks like.


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## Hillary_Plog (Apr 3, 2011)

Lin said:


> I think its wonderful that Hilary does ScH with her service dogs. A dog that is stable enough to be a service dog, is stable enough to be a protection dog as well. I wouldn't recommend everyone with service dogs go do protection work, because its not necessary and for a hard working dog it might be too much to be involved in a competitive sport such as ScH or agility during off hours. But this is Hilary's chosen hobby that both her dog and her enjoy.
> 
> However if this thread is about who I think it is... What he is doing is wrong, very wrong. *And Hilary is personally training her dogs in protection, she did the training and she handles the continuous training. Putting protection work on a dog and handing it over to a disabled child is very sick and just asking for trouble.*
> 
> Chris, not that trainer... I'll pm you who they're taking about


Lin...excellent post. I did read the website for which the OP is responding to and you hit the nail on the head: training a dog in personal protection and handing it over to a child with a disability is unacceptable on many levels.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> That could be very dangerous to train a dog to bite that is going to be in the public so much as I imagine many service dogs.


If the dog was a dog that would be in any way dangerous to have in public due to protective work training, that is a dog that has absolutely no business trained in protection or trained as a service dog. 

A dog that is stable enough temperamentally to be in public as a service dog, is of no risk to the public just because they've done bitework.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Lin said:


> If the dog was a dog that would be in any way dangerous to have in public due to protective work training, that is a dog that has absolutely no business trained in protection or trained as a service dog.
> 
> A dog that is stable enough temperamentally to be in public as a service dog, is of no risk to the public just because they've done bitework.


Very well put!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lin said:


> If the dog was a dog that would be in any way dangerous to have in public due to protective work training, that is a dog that has absolutely no business trained in protection or trained as a service dog.
> A dog that is stable enough temperamentally to be in public as a service dog, is of no risk to the public just because they've done bitework.


I agree that a service dog must have a very stable temperament. Maybe someone who is very experienced can answer a question that I have (I have done a little such work but not a lot and am not an expert by any measure) - so the question is this. Would a Sch titled dog be expected to make their own mind up as to the need for protection activity in the face of a percieved threat or are they trained to only bite on a command? (Any difference among the 1, 2, 3 level of titled dogs?)

For that matter, how about a real police dog? I assume (perhaps incorrectly it is true) that a true PPD would be assumed to do this. And I will further assume that all three types would be trained to stop immediately upon command, true?


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I think the bottom line that we must keep coming back to and this is for a dog that is a SchH III or a dog that was never allowed to even play rough games:

Handler is assulted and dog attacks to protect the handler.

Handler and their friends and family are excited happy and grateful that handler is alive and hurt no worse then they are.

The above may treat the dog like the hero it is for the rest of its life.

Handler may be out of a working SD partner.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

So I am confused... Someone posted this which seems like it is saying it is illegal for dogs with protection/Sch training to be service dogs? But others are saying you can do protection or Sch with your service dog as long as you are not calling that a service dog task. So what is the actual law here?



ILGHAUS said:


> “The crime deterrent effects of an animal's presence” do not qualify that animal as a service animal and “an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”
> 
> 
> This part ... *“an animal individually trained to provide aggressive protection, such as an attack dog, is not appropriately considered a service animal.”*


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## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

When the Dept. of Justice, Civil Law Division, Disability Section which is one of the agencies that Congress mandated to oversee various parts of the ADA gives a decision/law on one of their sections that is called regs or regulatory law.

The finer meaning of their regulatory laws we can only give at best educated guesses. It is when a case goes to court that we get an interpretation of the law. When the court makes a decision that is case law. Lawyers go back to these laws when arguing a case in law and present them to bring the judge to their side in a final decision. 

Some of these cases go up to the Supreme Court which is when we hear about them.

The DOJ says no active aggression. What is unclear is this - is the protection in Schuzhund a sport or is it such as a PPD goes through? 

We were speaking of a person who sells *Service Dogs* that are trained to do what it takes. He starts off with the accepted, which is where the dog stands between the handler and someone who may just be getting into the handlers space or the handler sees as some type of danger. The dog is not trained to do anything but stand non-aggressively as something to block further approach. There are places that will train the dog to growl and stand face to the oncoming person. And then as some of the sites say - they are further trained to do whatever it takes. *Some of these places then further state they will sell to children.* 

We have people on this forum with true working protection dogs and they will say that it is a lifelong training and working with their dog. Now take a dog that has been trained to "do whatever it takes" and put it in the hands of a child. 

Currently there is no law stating that a Schutzhund trained dog can not be a SD. The concern is what if for some reason the SD does bite someone. How is the judge going to rule on this? What outcome will the SD handler have with their insurance company? Remember the SD may have been in the right to protect the handler but it is unknown how the court will decide.

And going back to the first of my long winded post, we have no idea how the courts would rule. Can someone claim a dog is not a true SD because it has had bitework training and the handler no longer to have their dog in a rented apartment? If an employee at a store knows your dog has been trained in SchH can they refuse entrance to your dog? What about an employer who says the dog is not a real SD and can not come to work? All of this is up to court interpretation unless the DOJ comes back with more clarifications.



> So what is the actual law here?


I have not heard of any final decisions. In the meantime I know people who have SDs who had some SchH training and then were put into SD training. Their handlers keep mum on that just not to stir the pot and cause potential problems for themselves. I have never heard of any SchH trained dogs being pushed into attacking anyone. I have a feeling that if it happened it would be very much splashed through the news.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

codmaster said:


> I agree that a service dog must have a very stable temperament. Maybe someone who is very experienced can answer a question that I have (I have done a little such work but not a lot and am not an expert by any measure) - so the question is this. Would a Sch titled dog be expected to make their own mind up as to the need for protection activity in the face of a percieved threat or are they trained to only bite on a command? (Any difference among the 1, 2, 3 level of titled dogs?)
> 
> For that matter, how about a real police dog? I assume (perhaps incorrectly it is true) that a true PPD would be assumed to do this. And I will further assume that all three types would be trained to stop immediately upon command, true?


I'm sure you'll have better luck finding the answer to these questions if you post in the schutzhund, and police dog sections respectively. Since it is rare for someone with a service dog to also be a schutzhund enthusiast, your question will find better exposure to those who know in that section. 



Chicagocanine said:


> So I am confused... Someone posted this which seems like it is saying it is illegal for dogs with protection/Sch training to be service dogs? But others are saying you can do protection or Sch with your service dog as long as you are not calling that a service dog task. So what is the actual law here?


You can do protection or Sch with your service dog as long as you are not calling protection a service task. The law states that active, aggressive protection is NOT considered a service task. Someone pursuing schutzhund or protection sports as a hobby outside of service work is free to. There is no law that forbids it.

However many in the world of service dogs believe it should not be done. Most believe it is entirely unethical and wrong to place an already protection trained dog in the hands of someone unable to continue that training. Frequently on the forum you see the opinion that a protection trained dog is a liability and should never be in the wrong hands. Wrong hands being someone untrained to deal with that level and sort of training in a dog, and a disability complicates the matter even further. I don't believe 99% of those who train personal protection dogs would put them in the hands of a child to control period, much less a disabled child. But this is not something that has been addressed or outlined in the law. 

My personal opinion of course is that if someone wants to seek out protection/schutzhund training as a hobby with their dog, kudos to them! This is an entirely separate situation from placing an already protection trained dog in the hands of a disabled individual. When it comes to service training the individual must spend time with the organization learning to handle the current training on the dog and keep it up through the entire length of the working partnership. Service tasks have no inherent liability. 

And I'm all for those with disabilities to pursue any hobbies they have interest in. I would love to train in schutzhund, but thought that both the sport and agility were a no go for me due to mobility limitations. Hillary successfully training despite her limitations, is an inspiration.


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