# Degenerative Myelopathy question?



## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

sire is DM free but the dam has a gene carrier of DM.
so its 50-50 chances.

for the novice like me. Is this really a red flag?


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

It is for me personally. DM is so horrible that the chances of me just skipping a litter containing the DM gene are very, very, very high.


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## Anitsisqua (Mar 25, 2012)

IF you do not plan to breed your puppy, it doesn't matter. Without both parents carrying the gene, your puppy could only be a carrier, it could not be affected.


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Your puppy has 50% chance of carrying two normal alleles or 50% chance of being a carrier of DM. If you are very concerned, have the breeder do a DM test before you take the puppy home - it is a genetic test so it can be done anytime with a cheek swab. It is not an immediate red flag - ask the breeder why they used a carrier in their program, and listen to their reasons for the mating. Ask about guarantees and support later on.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

I suppose I am coming from the fact that the tests aren't 100% accurate, so my concern is the risk is present if the test was able to detect the gene. Make sense?


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## qbchottu (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes, if it is of concern to you, buy from DM clear matings - but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. No reason to completely eradicate carriers from the gene pool - matings should be decided on carefully (a given) and there should be calculated reasons as to why carriers are produced. Of course, if you are going to talk about test accuracy, then you will have to discuss the fact that many feel the test itself isn't a reliable predictor of the disease so some don't even put any faith IN testing. To me, DM is a factor, but not the end all be all. A holistic approach should be taken. 

To OP: if this litter is special in terms of what they hope to produce and the breeding pair is something special to you - talk to the breeder before immediately deciding against the litter. If DM is the ultimate factor for you, move on. Your choice. You can also foot the bill for DM testing of your potential pup and know for sure before you purchase - if your breeder allows.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

qbchottu said:


> Yes, if it is of concern to you, buy from DM clear matings - but I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. No reason to completely eradicate carriers from the gene pool - matings should be decided on carefully (a given) and there should be calculated reasons as to why carriers are produced. Of course, if you are going to talk about test accuracy, then you will have to discuss the fact that many feel the test itself isn't a reliable predictor of the disease so some don't even put any faith IN testing. To me, DM is a factor, but not the end all be all. A holistic approach should be taken.
> 
> To OP: if this litter is special in terms of what they hope to produce and the breeding pair is something special to you - talk to the breeder before immediately deciding against the litter. If DM is the ultimate factor for you, move on. Your choice. *You can also foot the bill for DM testing of your potential pup and know for sure before you purchase - if your breeder allows*.


This is a very good point. You can do a DM test as young as 4 weeks. If this is a concern, I would do the test as early as possible on the pup rather than worring about percentages and probabilities. However, you also have to keep in mind that the reliability of the tests is still up for debate.


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## makokak (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm really sorry guys!
i don't know if there is different between free and clear of DM.
But the sire is 100% clear DM instead of free.

Does it make a big difference?


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## weberhaus (Jan 2, 2008)

to the OP.
The term for Free and Clear have been closely mistaken and used by people who are ether not willing to tell the truth or lie by omission.
I have seen many ads posted a DM free litter by a breed who has a clear parent and carrier parent and in this case none of the puppies will have DM.
The DM chart is easy to under stand and sadly i can not find it to post for you. However I think it is important for each to understand that a carrier should not be dismissed from a breeding program based only on that fast. If the dog has things to offer and a breeder has a chosen Clear mate then in this case it can be bred out of the lines. 
I for one have bred 2 females who are carriers to clear males. Even a dog that is DM at risk Could be bred to a Clear mate and produce all carriers thus improvement of the Next generation. As stated no test in 100% accurate but in the case were on parent is clear and on a carrier i would say it the breeding will give you what you want and then go for it. At worst case the puppy you get is a carrier and if you choose to breed latter look for a clear mate. DM tests are another tool for breeders to be proactive and work at bettering the health of the breed. 
But in short if the sire is clear he can only give you a N/N and **** being a N/A so each gives one gene. will the **** give the A or the N only a test call tell you that. Talk with the breeder of the puppy you wish to buy about your plans for the puppy long term and see what they have to say about it.  
I wish you all the best.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

Just to explain at the most basic level:

2 copies of the gene = "at risk" dog -- only about 10% of dogs who test at risk end up being affected; however, there is something like a 97% correlation between dogs who have DM and the finding of 2 copies of the gene. [DM can only be conclusively diagnosed after death through examination of the spinal cord, so some cases that appear to be DM might actually be another problem, such as another disease or an injury related problem.]

1 copy of the gene = "carrier" -- in general, a carrier is extremely unlikely to get DM. However, there have been 2 (according to one of the main research sites) cases of a carrier dog being affected, as confirmed by necropsy. Obviously, this suggests the need for further research.

0 copies of the gene = "clear/clear" -- this dog, according to current science should not get DM.


Breeding combinations: each parent contributes 1 gene to the puppy for this factor. A clear/clear parent will never produce an "at risk" puppy.

Clear/Clear to Clear/Clear = all pups clear/clear
Clear/Clear to Clear/Carrier = 50% of the pups should be clear/clear and 50% should be clear/carrier (so, no pups will be At Risk)
At Risk -- should only be bred to clear/clear - all pups will be carriers.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

makokak said:


> sire is DM free but the dam has a gene carrier of DM.
> so its 50-50 chances.
> 
> for the novice like me. Is this really a red flag?


 
Should be!

I had a female GSD who we went thru this degenerative process over the last few years of her life.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Should be!
> 
> I had a female GSD who we went thru this degenerative process over the last few years of her life.


Let's try this again. No, it should not be a major concern. 

If you plan on breeding, you should DM test your dog to know if she/he is a carrier so you can make appropriate, informed breeding decisions.

A carrier dog (one gene for the disease, one free) is NOT a carrier of the disease--it's not there latent to possibly crop up. It's just that the dog has one copy of the gene that is associated with the possibility of getting DM. Two copies are the dogs that are at risk of getting DM. The carrier he does not get it, does not spread it to other dogs, and should in no way be affected by his status of having just one gene.

In addition, 50% of the litter should be completely clear--if you want to know your puppy's status, you can ask the breeder to DNA test the pup you are interested in or you can do it after you get your pup home.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> Let's try this again. No, it should not be a major concern.
> 
> If you plan on breeding, you should DM test your dog to know if she/he is a carrier so you can make appropriate, informed breeding decisions.
> 
> ...


*You are right - so to try one more time!* I thought that the Op was asking about a puppy from dogs that could produce a dog who would carry the genes for DM. Why in the world should they take even a chance if they have the means to avoid this tragic disease? 

I had to put down a great female GSD who had this disease and could not even walk across the floor at the vets office the last time i took her there (so I had to carry my 85lb female into the final room for her and hold her in my arms as she closed her eyes for the last time!). So yes you could say that I do get emotional about this issue!

Why shouldn't the OP just search for a puppy from certified free parents = no chance of a dog having it (as I understand anyway).

Was this planned litter such an absolutely perfect sure fire mating so that the known chance of some of the puppies developing DM or being carriers of DM was worth the risk? Doubtful, but it is possible as I am not familiar withy the parents.


If breeders would (or could?) stop breeding dogs carrying this dreaded disease we might have a chance to eliminate the diseas, or at least reduce it a great deal. Of course maybe I missed something?

If a stud or brood female is a known carrier of DM, I cannot understand why a breeder would continue to breed such a dog? Other than finances - can a reputable breeder on this forum explain the reasoning for doing so to all of us?

Are all of the dogs that continue to be used knowing they are carriers just so great that they are irreplacable in the general breed pool?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

This is for sickle cell anemia in humans, but it works exactly the same


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Are all of the dogs that continue to be used knowing they are carriers just so great that they are irreplacable in the general breed pool?


Whenever you just throw away a dog's genetic offerings based on one less than desirable but manageable aspect such as this, you end up losing all the good qualities it would have contributed as well. You must always look at the complete picture. Things like DM carriers just mean one must be more careful regarding the selection of a mate, and the carrier should bring "enough" to the table to justify not eliminating the DM gene at that generation.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

...two N/N dogs have developed DM as have several A/N dogs. I am not sure what the test means. 

Canine degenerative myelopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

hunterisgreat said:


> Whenever you just throw away a dog's genetic offerings based on one less than desirable but manageable aspect such as this, you end up losing all the good qualities it would have contributed as well. You must always look at the complete picture. Things like DM carriers just mean one must be more careful regarding the selection of a mate, and the carrier should bring "enough" to the table to justify not eliminating the DM gene at that generation.


 
That is exactly what I said! 

Are these carriers worth it to continue to breed and continue to expand this dreaded disease within our breed?

Are the known carriers irriplaceable in their genetic worth to the breed? 

My guess would be a resounding "NO", BUT admitedly I am not the owner of any of these dogs; and thus do not know them or how great the dogs maybe to their owners or how financially valuable they may be to their owners so of course it is easier for me to make the decision not to continue to perpetuate the existence of DM in our breed.

Tough decision for the affected dog owners! It is very hard to say no to your own "great"
dog when you are sure that SOME of the dogs offspring may likely be clear of the disease!


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> ...two N/N dogs have developed DM as have several A/N dogs. I am not sure what the test means.
> 
> Canine degenerative myelopathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The N/N case is suspected of faulty testing.

A/A not showing could be many thing... Better immune regulation (many immune system diseases can be mitigated with proper proactive care). Dog didn't live long enough anyway, etc.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

codmaster said:


> That is exactly what I said!
> 
> Are these carriers worth it to continue to breed and continue to expand this dreaded disease within our breed?
> 
> ...


It's simple. Breed, sterilize any N/A pups. Done


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Is DM a simple recessive?

I did the DDC Veterinary test for Nikon. It says "clear both alleles" so I'm guessing that is N/N. It only took about two weeks and you can pay for 5 day turnaround so you could test a puppy before buying it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

One of the dogs that was N/N and developed DM (necropsy done by UM) was tested twice by UM and both times the dog was found to be N/N. They even admit when they send test results (as shown in a similar thread down in health) that there have been dogs with N/A who developed DM and 2 dogs that were N/N that developed DM and were confirmed by necropsy. The test is falable and, IMO, is giving people a false sense of security. You need to pay attention to the history/health of the lines and not JUST rely on a imperfect test.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think it is complex because, as I understand, the only definitive test is necropsy of the spinal cord. I would like to read up on it. Have not had Beau tested so not trying to rationalize anything just gather that the GSD instance *may* be different or maybe two different gene issues-and this could be one of the two (the SOD1)

I am digging for my email from the SAR person with the positive N/N (one of two I had heard about).....I had not heard that result was questionable. Is there anything new published on GSDs? Very few folks necropsy their dogs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

hunterisgreat said:


> It's simple. Breed, sterilize any N/A pups. Done


And destroy the breed in the process.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

look to progeny of dogs that lived very long , uneventful lives. I have recently tested a few dogs , just to see , --- from backgrounds where 14 years was an average - some older . It is "just" information -- .


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> And destroy the breed in the process.


? If you wanted to breed but felt compelled to halt the disease. That's the only way. I'm not advocating sterilizing them.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

From OFFA

GUIDELINES FOR BREEDING DOGS WHO ARE CARRIER OR AT RISK FOR DM

Owners with dogs testing as Carriers (A/N), or At-Risk (A/A) are strongly encouraged to share these results with their attending veterinarian and seek genetic counseling when making breeding decisions. 

The “A” (mutated) allele appears to be very common in some breeds. In these breeds, an overly aggressive breeding program to eliminate dogs testing A/A or A/N might be devastating to the breed as a whole because it would eliminate a large fraction of the high quality dogs that would otherwise contribute desirable qualities to the breed. Nonetheless, DM should be taken seriously. It is a fatal disease with devastating consequences for the dog, and can be a trying experience for the owners that care for them. A realistic approach when considering which dogs to select for breeding would be to treat the test results as one would treat any other undesirable trait or fault. Dogs testing At-Risk (A/A) should be considered to have a more serious fault than those testing as Carriers (A/N). Incorporating this information into their selection criteria, breeders can then proceed as conscientious breeders have always done: make their breeding selections based on all the dog’s strengths and all the dog’s faults. Using this approach and factoring the DM test results into the breeding decisions should reduce the prevalence of DM in the subsequent generations while continuing to maintain and improve upon positive, sought after traits.

We recommend that breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize the test results. Instead, the test result should be one factor among many in a balanced breeding program.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> We recommend that breeders take into consideration the DM test results as they plan their breeding programs; however, they should not over-emphasize the test results. Instead, the test result should be one factor among many in a balanced breeding program.



This I agree with. I don't agree with automatically culling all carriers.


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