# TOTW - Too much calcium??



## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

I finally found a grain free food that I could afford and that the dogs are happy with and that I can get delivered to Italy and now I have been reading some problems about TOTW containing too much calcium. 

It was bought up on another forum where a member actually called the TOTW vet and she said that they have to put the higher calcium in because it is an 'all life stages' food and that MOST healthy dogs should be able to excrete out the excess.

But what if they don't?? 

Not really happy about this now and not sure whether to keep them on it or not, what are your thoughts??


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

How old are your dogs? 

If older than 18 months, I wouldn't worry. If younger, it does have too much calcium and I would advise you pick a different food.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Lucy Dog said:


> How old are your dogs?
> 
> If older than 18 months, I wouldn't worry. If younger, it does have too much calcium and I would advise you pick a different food.



One is just over 2 but my other one is just coming up to 15 months and has been on it for maybe 3 months? Worried now!!


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

It's really up to you. The two year old should be fine, but if I was in your situation, I would move to a lower calcium food for the 15 month old. 

Really, I wouldn't feed a high calcium food until at least 2 years old, but i've heard people here mention 18 months, so that's why I mentioned that age in my original post. 

I'm a "better safe than sorry" type person, so that's why I'd recommend switching to something else until old enough, but it's really up to you.


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## ZAYDA (Apr 22, 2010)

Does TOTW adult food have to much calcium or are we talking about their puppy food.My daughter has a 8 month old silver lab that we are taking off Orijen due to price and I was recommending TOTW adult Wetlands.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

ZAYDA said:


> Does TOTW adult food have to much calcium or are we talking about their puppy food.


TOTW doesn't make a puppy food.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

This topic has come up a zillion times before....

There's been emails from TOTW vets on staff saying not to feed their food to puppies. Yes, the Ca/P levels are way too high for them.

Just because some sales person decided to have the company market it as "all life stages" does mean it is.


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## GSDElsa (Jul 22, 2009)

ZAYDA said:


> Does TOTW adult food have to much calcium or are we talking about their puppy food.My daughter has a 8 month old silver lab that we are taking off Orijen due to price and I was recommending TOTW adult Wetlands.


I'm actually not sure if that's going to save any $$. TOTW is cheaper, but I believe their calorie count is also almost half of what Orijen's is.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

GSDElsa said:


> This topic has come up a zillion times before....
> 
> There's been emails from TOTW vets on staff saying not to feed their food to puppies. Yes, the Ca/P levels are way too high for them.
> 
> Just because some sales person decided to have the company market it as "all life stages" does mean it is.


Sorry, I didn't realise it had been covered before. 

I have 2 sacks of unopened food so not sure what to do now! Why do food manufacturers behave like this!


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## Myamom (Oct 10, 2005)

Did you buy locally? Is so...you can return. My local PSP takes back opened bags too.


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

Myamom said:


> Did you buy locally? Is so...you can return. My local PSP takes back opened bags too.


Unfortunately no, I live in the middle of nowhere in Italy so have it delivered. I might have to go and google the effects of calcium. Is it only if they have it long term or will another month harm him? Can't really afford to just throw it away and now will have to go back to a food with grain as thats the only other option.


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## JustMeLeslie (Sep 15, 2010)

wolfspirit said:


> Unfortunately no, I live in the middle of nowhere in Italy so have it delivered. I might have to go and google the effects of calcium. Is it only if they have it long term or will another month harm him? Can't really afford to just throw it away and now will have to go back to a food with grain as thats the only other option.


 
I say go ahead and feed it to your dogs. There is really no point of throwing it away.


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## Stosh (Jun 26, 2010)

I would feed it to them, they're certainly on the older side of puppyhood


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

wolfspirit said:


> Unfortunately no, I live in the middle of nowhere in Italy so have it delivered. I might have to go and google the effects of calcium. Is it only if they have it long term or will another month harm him? Can't really afford to just throw it away and now will have to go back to a food with grain as thats the only other option.


I'm not convinced that there's a problem. I know of a GSD breeder who has been feeding ToTW to their puppies and adults for a few years now--no issues.

I've been feeding it for about 8 months and all my dogs are flourishing on it. 

If you're concerned, you could mix the ToTW with the other food, thus "diluting" the effects.

As far as the ToTW calories versus Orijen, I went and looked up the information--see below.

I've had a couple of my puppy buyers ask me about this, so I figured I should go do some research. Check out the information below and then make up your own mind as to what levels you're comfortable with.

~ Christine

----

_The metabolizable energy of ORIJEN 6 FISH is 4010 kcal/kg or 480 kcal per 250ml cup (120g)._
Calcium (min./max.) 1.4 % / 1.6 % Phosphorus (min./max.) 1.2 % / 1.4 %

_The metabolizable energy of ORIJEN REGIONAL RED is 4010 kcal/kg or 480 kcal per 250ml cup (120g)._
Calcium (min./max.) 1.6 % / 1.8 % Phosphorus (min./max.) 1.4 % / 1.6 %

*ToTW *
*High Prairie --* 
Protein: 32% Fat: 18%
Calcium: 2.1%, as-fed; Phosphorus: 1.4%, as-fed
Calories: 3,719 kcal/kg (370 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy
*Pacific Stream -- *
Protein: 25% Fat: 15%
Calcium: 1.9%, as-fed; Phosphorus: 1.1%, as-fed
Calories: 3,600 kcal/kg (360 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy
*Wetlands -- *
Protein: 32% Fat: 18%
Calcium: 2.1%, as-fed; Phosphorus: 1.4%, as-fed
Calories: 3,750 kcal/kg (375 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy
*Sierra Mountains --*
Protein: 25% Fat: 15%
Calcium: 1.6%, as-fed; Phosphorus: 1.0%, as-fed
Calories: 3,611 kcal/kg (338 kcal/cup) Calculated Metabolizable Energy


I'm trying to find info based on the level considered "too much" calcium for puppies and I've found the following:

*Nutrition and Joint Health in Dogs*_
The absolute level of calcium in the diet, rather than an imbalance in the calcium/phosphorus ratio, influences skeletal development.2 Young, giant-breed dogs fed a food containing excess calcium (3.3% dry matter basis) with either normal phosphorus(0.9% dry matter basis) or high phosphorus(3% dry matter basis, to maintain a normal calcium/phosphorus ratio) had significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease.2 These puppies apparently were unable to protect themselves against the negative effects of chronic calcium excess.3 Further, chronic high calcium intake increased the frequency and severity of osteochondrosis. _ 

*Calcium & Phosphorous Requirements for Dogs *-- _Many people have embraced these studies and interpreted them to imply that by feeding a puppy food slightly lower in the recommended amounts of calcium and phosphorous to large breed puppies, the puppies will have a decreased incidence of hip dysplasia. However, there are no studies that show that these low calcium foods result in less hip dysplasia in large breed dogs than a normal well-balanced puppy food. While feeding a special formula large breed puppy food to your puppy is not bad, there are no concrete studies that show it is better than a balanced puppy food formulated for all puppies._

*Low Calcium Diets Growth | GREATDANELADY.COM *_
The majority of developmental disease problems that come my way are due to dogs being fed this new feeding concept of using a low calcium diet, and this method goes against Mother Natures way of surviving in the wild during those fragile growth stages. _

*Calcium and Phosphorus: Replicate the ancestral diet at home, and get it righ*
Percentages of Calcium and Phosphorus in chicken meat or chicken with bone 
Ground chicken no bone Ground whole chicken Calcium %, Dry Matter basis .03% 2.2% Phosphorus %, Dry Matter basis​ 0.1%​ 1.4%​
*Orthopaedic Medicine - WSAVA 2003 Congress *
_Preventive Measures in Canine Orthopaedic Medicine
_In our study at Cornell, by design, we used a diet with a high calcium content (2,1 %). During our study it became apparent that such a high calcium content add to the detrimental effects of overfeeding. It was postulated that excessive food--*overfeeding *as well as excessive amounts of calcium--*oversupplementation *with calcium* is* not compatible with optimal skeletal characteristics in large sized breeds. The Dutch research group in Utrecht have then proven that a too high calcium content in a diet have negative effects also when fed in more restricted amounts *(**Goedegebuure et al. 1986) **and that negative effects are not caused by level of protein** (Nap et al. 1991) *


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## wolfspirit (Dec 10, 2009)

BlackthornGSD said:


> I'm not convinced that there's a problem. I know of a GSD breeder who has been feeding ToTW to their puppies and adults for a few years now--no issues.
> 
> I've been feeding it for about 8 months and all my dogs are flourishing on it.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the info!  It started sounding as though it will probably be ok then, except for the last bit.  I had trouble understanding the findings, are they are saying that they studied a diet with 2.1% (same as TOTW) and it was found to be not compatible with optimum health?


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Why not just feed the TOTW to the dog who's already 2 years old and get a new food for the puppy? This way you won't have to return anything.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

wolfspirit said:


> Thank you for all the info!  It started sounding as though it will probably be ok then, except for the last bit.  I had trouble understanding the findings, are they are saying that they studied a diet with 2.1% (same as TOTW) and it was found to be not compatible with optimum health?


Sounds like they did a study in which they *overfed* a diet that was 2.1% and had problems. But other studies have found that "high" levels of calcium are problematic. But they don't go on to define what is a "high" level. 

I think that 2.1% is probably on the high end of normal for a puppy. I tend to feed a combination of the High Prairie and Pacific Stream, which averages out to 2%. 

If you look at the numbers for amount of calcium in a ground whole chicken, that was 2.2%. 

I think you have to decide what you're comfortable with. 

The one thing that every study seems to agree on is that _overfeeding _has a negative impact on joint health.


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## Lucy Dog (Aug 10, 2008)

Keep in mind that other companies (Wellness) that sell higher calcium formulas (their core formula) will flat out tell you NOT to feed this food to growing large breed puppies.

How often does a company tell you that their food is not ok to feed? This will cost them business, but they're at least doing the right thing. They recognize that high amounts of calcium and growing large breed puppies are not a good combination and they're very open about that with potential customers. 


 I have heard that some of these high protein diets can’t be fed to large breed puppies. Why?
 *Research has shown that large breed puppies should not be fed a diet that is over 1.3 – 1.5% Calcium or they run a significant risk of developing bone abnormalities*. Many of the high protein diets on the market today are well in excess of 1.5% Calcium. *We do not recommend any large breed puppies be fed our CORE dog diets*, or any of the other high protein diets on the market today. In fact, we would conservatively say that * puppies in general should not feed higher protein diets that exceed 1.5% Calcium*. Again, this is why we feature a maintenance claim and promote the diet for dogs over 1 year in age.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

TOTW ....I had to feed a lot more of this food. Didn't notice a big savings over Orijen.


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