# Was there a "Greatest of all time"?



## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Just wondering, if for the sake of argument, in my mind, Superman was the greatest Super hero, Babe Ruth was the greatest Ball player, Ali, King Kong, Einstein, Pele, etc. 

Was/is there a "Greatest German Shepherd" of all time? I know most will say their own dog. Good for you. Except for your own dog, is their a greatest of all time?


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Rin tin tin!!! (Haha don't make fun of me, I mean the original rin tin tin who was rescued during war and brought to the US and eventually became a famous actor) 


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Haha. That's funny. Did he lead to the American line? Was Rin Tin Tin American line, West German or something else? He was in silent pictures right? That would be pre WWII when the GSD came here and became popular. I am probably wrong. I also wonder which dog was the first American show line dog? I have so many irrelevant questions.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

Ha that I'm not sure, he was trained by a soldier who rescued him and became super famous, I think one of the first dog actors! I don't know to much about it though (I'm sure I could google it but I'm being lazy lol)


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

I think we are talking two different subjects. John Wayne wasn't the greatest American hero in my book. Fury and Silver weren't the greatest horses.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

well to one person Faust Busecker Schloss . So many great plans . Apparently the dog was all that and then some. Lost during the war . Tried to find another close to him . The sire of Faust , Onyx is a foundation on West German dogs, DDR dogs, Swedish dogs and probably in the back background of Czech dogs Faust vom Busecker Schloß


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

Rin Tin Tin was sable, the real deal working dog, and american lines are nothing like him.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

carmspack said:


> well to one person Faust Busecker Schloss . So many great plans . Apparently the dog was all that and then some. Lost during the war . Tried to find another close to him . The sire of Faust , Onyx is a foundation on West German dogs, DDR dogs, Swedish dogs and probably in the back background of Czech dogs Faust vom Busecker Schloß


Thank you. I will research that. While researching for my puppy, I ran across Zamp Theropos. Was he a great dog or a fan favorite? I would love for my puppy to grow up to look like him. Is that possible?  Can I get a dog that will look like Zamp? If possible, please tell me how.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

For American lines, Pfeffer von Bern


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

i liked Bullet from roy rogers.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

I think that Bernd and Bodo von Lierberg were considered ideal GSD's in thier time.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

So, there isn't a #1 consensus dog? Was just asking. I'm new. I'm sure you all know who Zamp Thermodos was, right? Where can I buy a dog that looks like that? I'm tired of looking around and reading one ad after another from people claiming to be responsible breeders in the best interest of the breed. Can someone just tell me where to buy a dog like that?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Harley120R said:


> So, there isn't a #1 consensus dog? Was just asking. I'm new. I'm sure you all know who Zamp Thermodos was, right? Where can I buy a dog that looks like that? I'm tired of looking around and reading one ad after another from people claiming to be responsible breeders in the best interest of the breed. Can someone just tell me where to buy a dog like that?


Zamp is a German Show line dog. Dead now, I think, but he has to have a lot of progeny. 

There are no short cuts. You can either trust links on the internet to people's different websites, or you can go the whole nine yards and determine whether a breeder is ethical or not. We can possibly give you some names to look at, but ultimately determining whether a breeder is good enough is up to you.

ETA: there is no hurry in finding a breeder for a good pup. It is a decision that will have repercussions for hopefully 10 to 14 years. Do your research and don't rush it.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

poorly phrased question --

of course the Lierbergs , for show lines include Uran Wildsteigerland, for American lines Lance of Fran Jo 

OP wants a dog that looks like this VA1 Zamp vom Thermodos basic black and red of West German show lines -- easy to find


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

carmspack said:


> poorly phrased question --
> 
> of course the Lierbergs , for show lines include Uran Wildsteigerland, for American lines Lance of Fran Jo
> 
> OP wants a dog that looks like this VA1 Zamp vom Thermodos basic black and red of West German show lines -- easy to find


So, where do I find one that looks like Zamp since it's so easy? That's all I ask. Thanks.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> Zamp is a German Show line dog. Dead now, I think, but he has to have a lot of progeny.
> 
> There are no short cuts. You can either trust links on the internet to people's different websites, or you can go the whole nine yards and determine whether a breeder is ethical or not. We can possibly give you some names to look at, but ultimately determining whether a breeder is good enough is up to you.
> 
> ETA: there is no hurry in finding a breeder for a good pup. It is a decision that will have repercussions for hopefully 10 to 14 years. Do your research and don't rush it.


I hope I don't sound rude, I don't mean to. You have over 20,000 posts, I'm on the Premium German Shepherd Forum and you can't tell me where to buy a dog that I'm looking for?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I hope I don't sound rude, I don't mean to. You have over 20,000 posts, I'm on the Premium German Shepherd Forum and you can't tell me where to buy a dog that I'm looking for?


You demanding someone tell you where to buy a shepherd is like going onto a dating website and saying, "come on! Why isn't anyone telling me who I should marry!!??" 

Okay, obviously not as serious, but that little tantrum towards Sue made me giggle. The right dog for you probably isn't the right dog for me, the right dog for me may not be right for anyone else, someone can't tell you where to go get a dog...especially on the internet where no one knows you or what your plans are. You doing sport? PSA? Agility? Flyball? AKC Obedience? Family Dog? Kennel Dog? Have kids? Family? etc...

Stick around here a bit, get to know the different lines, figure out what it is you want out of the dog temperament-wise (that's way more important than color), etc....There are lots of good breeders out there and there are lots of bad breeders. There is a "search bar" on this site, look up "West German Showline Breeders" in it and some threads will pop up with recommendations.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Repeat


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> You demanding someone tell you where to buy a shepherd is like going onto a dating website and saying, "come on! Why isn't anyone telling me who I should marry!!??"
> 
> Okay, obviously not as serious, but that little tantrum towards Sue made me giggle.
> 
> Stick around here a bit, get to know the different lines, figure out what it is you want out of the dog temperament-wise (that's way more important than color), etc....There are lots of good breeders out there and there are lots of bad breeders. There is a "search bar" on this site, look up "West German Showline Breeders" in it and some threads will pop up with recommendations.


I didn't throw a tantrum, did I? I've been reading for months. Just recently had the nerve to join because I know how forums go. 

Simple. I don't need anymore research. I want a dog exactly like Zamp Vom Thermodos. Don't care who the breeder is as long as they can supply that dog. I put my faith in the hands of the people that have spent years on this forum to tell me where to get that dog. 

That is not a short cut to me. That is relying on others research and development. 

You ever build a plane? Should I tell you to research it, go slow and use your best judgement or do you want to sit back and rely on my experience? 

I do believe I read the same thing over and over here from people that at one time was good advice but now is repeated by every anature that wants to chime in. 

What do you want? What are you going to do with him? Show? Temperament? Blah blah. 

I told you. I want Zamp Vom Thermodos. Where do I get one? If you know the dog, you know exactly what I want. I want the Legend.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I didn't throw a tantrum, did I? I've been reading for months. Just recently had the nerve to join because I know how forums go.
> 
> Simple. I don't need anymore research. I want a dog exactly like Zamp Vom Thermodos. Don't care who the breeder is as long as they can supply that dog. I put my faith in the hands of the people that have spent years on this forum to tell me where to get that dog.
> 
> ...


You should phone those that owned Zamp then...


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

This>>"I want Zamp"....well...he's dead...so you can't have him....you can find breeders with him in their lines, but unless you hook up with the people that cloned dolly the sheep, get some DNA from Zamp somehow..and clone him, you aren't going to get that exact dog lol.

My previous dog had Zamp in his lines. It was the biggest selling point of the breeder. My dog had a genetic heart condition, liver failure, terrible hips, horrible pigment, nervous issues, skittish, and very very fearful. Doesn't mean that Zamp was bad, but super duper popular dogs like that get misused for the "name" in breedings all the time so the breeder can talk about how that name is in the pedigree.

Zamp was a West German Showline...use the search function, type in "west german showline breeders" and a bunch of recommendations will pop up.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Harley120R said:


> I hope I don't sound rude, I don't mean to. You have over 20,000 posts, I'm on the Premium German Shepherd Forum and you can't tell me where to buy a dog that I'm looking for?


Hahaha... If you are simply looking for a dog that looks like another one, that's pretty easy. You were already told to look at WGSL dogs. They are fairly similar in appearance. Find a breeder with a young adult and buy the dog. 

In the interest of the dog, I suggest you select a dog of the right temperament and energy level to suit your lifestyle. A dog can be beautiful and a nightmare at the same time. The happiest dogs have the happiest owners. A good personality match is more important than breed, gender or color.

The dilemma is finding the right temperament in the breed, gender and color you want. With some more information about what you want in a dog, forum members could likely help you.

If all you want is a dog that looks like another dog, Google is your friend.

David Winners


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> You should phone those that owned Zamp then...


I would ask you for their number, but since he's dead it probably wouldn't do much good. Thanks for what makes forums worth educational.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> This>>"I want Zamp"....well...he's dead...so you can't have him....you can find breeders with him in their lines, but unless you hook up with the people that cloned dolly the sheep, get some DNA from Zamp somehow..and clone him, you aren't going to get that exact dog lol.
> 
> My previous dog had Zamp in his lines. It was the biggest selling point of the breeder. My dog had a genetic heart condition, liver failure, terrible hips, horrible pigment, nervous issues, skittish, and very very fearful. Doesn't mean that Zamp was bad, but super duper popular dogs like that get misused for the "name" in breedings all the time so the breeder can talk about how that name is in the pedigree.
> 
> Zamp was a West German Showline...use the search function, type in "west german showline breeders" and a bunch of recommendations will pop up.


I understand your humor. I want a dog that looks like Zamp. Doesn't have to be from him. Thanks and sorry.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Hahaha... If you are simply looking for a dog that looks like another one, that's pretty easy. You were already told to look at WGSL dogs. They are fairly similar in appearance. Find a breeder with a young adult and buy the dog.
> 
> In the interest of the dog, I suggest you select a dog of the right temperament and energy level to suit your lifestyle. A dog can be beautiful and a nightmare at the same time. The happiest dogs have the happiest owners. A good personality match is more important than breed, gender or color.
> 
> ...


Wow. Ok I want the best dog in the world. Who should I call?


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I understand your humor. I want a dog that looks like Zamp. Doesn't have to be from him. Thanks and sorry.


And I'm telling you what happens when you only care about looks....my boy died at a year and a half old....


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Von Waldberg kennels owned him. They have 6 young adults for sale right now, 4 planned litters, and a SchH 1 titled female for sale.

Their email address, address and phone numbers are available their site.

David Winners


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Harley120R said:


> Wow. Ok I want the best dog in the world. Who should I call?


The best dog for what?

And I wasn't trying to be funny.

David Winners


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> And I'm telling you what happens when you only care about looks....my boy died at a year and a half old....


I'm sorry for your loss. Truly I am. Did he die because because of his looks? Where did you get him? One of those reputable breeders? 

Don't get me wrong. I want a high quality, healthy dog that looks like Zamp. I'm willing to pay $20k right now. He has to be show quality. Smarter than Einstein and doesn't bite his owner. I'm allergic to dog bites. 

**** crying shame that everyone on this board knows what quality should be found in a dog, redicules me for liking Zamp's looks, but not one person could recommend where to but one. 

Great forum right here. Some people have over 20k post but can't recommend a breeder. 

Same experience I've had on many forums. Clicks and armatures repeating pros rhetoric. 

Most of you probably have byb dogs. 

Good bye. I'm done here. Shameful site.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Von Waldberg kennels owned him. They have 6 young adults for sale right now, 4 planned litters, and a SchH 1 titled female for sale.
> 
> Their email address, address and phone numbers are available their site.
> 
> David Winners


Are you saying they owned Zamp? I'm getting caught up here. If that's what you're saying. That's not true.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Zamp was born to the Dieterich family and died with the Dieterich family.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I'm sorry for your loss. Truly I am. Did he die because because of his looks? Where did you get him? One of those reputable breeders?
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I want a high quality, healthy dog that looks like Zamp. I'm willing to pay $20k right now. He has to be show quality. Smarter than Einstein and doesn't bite his owner. I'm allergic to dog bites.
> 
> ...


Me thinks me smells a troll....Winners gave you the place to buy a dog like Zamp....there you go. Me and my byb dog will see ourselves out. lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

My bad. He was in their breeding program.

David Winners


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> Me thinks me smells a troll....Winners gave you the place to buy a dog like Zamp....there you go. Me and my byb dog will see ourselves out. lol


Sorry, they never owned Zamp. They tricked me too. Try again. So, where do you recommend this troll buys a dog like Zamp? I shouldn't have to describe his personality. All I should have to say is WGSD that looks like Zamp. The rest should be self explanatory. There is only one kind of WGSD.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

In case you missed it the first time, I posted it two more times below...with a $20,000 budget you can call them up tomorrow and get one by next week I'm sure. Have fun with him!

*Von Waldberg kennels owned him. They have 6 young adults for sale right now, 4 planned litters, and a SchH 1 titled female for sale.

Their email address, address and phone numbers are available their site.*

*Von Waldberg kennels owned him. They have 6 young adults for sale right now, 4 planned litters, and a SchH 1 titled female for sale.

Their email address, address and phone numbers are available their site.*


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> In case you missed it the first time, I posted it two more times below...with a $20,000 budget you can call them up tomorrow and get one by next week I'm sure. Have fun with him!
> 
> *Von Waldberg kennels owned him. They have 6 young adults for sale right now, 4 planned litters, and a SchH 1 titled female for sale.
> 
> ...


What is it the dogs get in their hips? Is it possible that people can get it in their brains? 

How clever are you when you read the whole thread? Bet you act like you don't see this and don't answer.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> What is it the dogs get in their hips? Is it possible that people can get it in their brains?
> 
> How clever are you when you read the whole thread? Bet you act like you don't see this and don't answer.


By the end of the thread you said you just wanted a dog that LOOKED like Zamp and that all WGSL's were the same....I'll quote that and even bold the areas you said it....Winners gave you EXACTLY that lol.

"All I should have to say is *WGSD that looks like Zamp*. The rest should be self explanatory. *There is only one kind of WGSD.*"


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## bill (Nov 8, 2013)

Fleisherheim German shepherds. w.g.s.l.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

ohhh , people were thinking YOU OP was the troll not David Winners !!!

help your self . 

pedigree data base classifieds Classifieds - Latest entries in all countries - page 1

hundreds and hundreds of ever changing adverts for dogs for sale 
every price , every age , every category (working , show, pet , breeding).

here is an example German Shepherd Dog Puppies for sale: VA Chacco von der Freiheit Westerholt puppies (id: 205924)

making NO recommendation or endorsement -- do not know these people --- only chose this ad because of the looks.

make your search easier -- look into pedigrees that have Zamp's sire 
Quantum Arminius and you will have a hard time in not finding him.

The one thing that the show line breeders have mastered to a fault is uniformity -- often expressed as cookie cutter .

go ---- find -----

the look is so easy. Show lines share genetics - Zamp will likely be in there in the background


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## wdkiser (May 7, 2013)

I think my my dog is the greatest of all time. Whatever dog I have at the time.


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## Sarah~ (Apr 30, 2012)

Why are you being so rude...? Everyone is telling you how to find the dog you want but you aren't listening.



Harley120R said:


> All I should have to say is WGSD that looks like Zamp. The rest should be self explanatory. There is only one kind of WGSD.


Sorry, but it just doesn't work like that... You want a dog that looks like Zamp that's healthy and doesn't bite. Maybe you think that is all the info that the more experienced members need to say here, this is the dog you want but it's not. There are a lot of breeders out there breeding for a lot of things, if color is all you want then everyone else is right it should be a piece of cake to find the dog you want. Obviously it's not just color since I'm pretty sure you have been linked to and given the names of several breeders, even one with that specific dog in the breeding program and you are still throwing it back in their faces saying it's not good enough. 

Why would they want to help you now? Why should they? Maybe calm down, lose the attitude and start over... People ask the same questions because they are important to HELP THEM HELP YOU!


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

This thread started out as a fun thread about great dogs in history and then turned into a mess. Weird.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Harley120R said:


> I'm sorry for your loss. Truly I am. Did he die because because of his looks? Where did you get him? One of those reputable breeders?
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I want a high quality, healthy dog that looks like Zamp. I'm willing to pay $20k right now. He has to be show quality. Smarter than Einstein and doesn't bite his owner. I'm allergic to dog bites.
> 
> ...


OMG !!! You have just opened yourself up to a ton of crazy people wanting to sell you dogs....

There are alot of good breeders on this site. And alot of responsible well informed people who love the breed and have come here after being 'taken' by someone 

I am not a showline fancier - Euro or American show ring...but I do know something about alot of these breeders and who will take your 20K and sell you anything they can grab out of a run and put a leash on....

If you are still reading the thread.....PM me and I will give you a few names of who to talk to and who to stay away from...!!!!!

Lee


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

robk said:


> This thread started out as a fun thread about great dogs in history and then turned into a mess. Weird.


What Rob said can we go back to the purpose of the thread because that would be interesting...


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Vol of Long Worth


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Andaka said:


> I think that Bernd and Bodo von Lierberg were considered ideal GSD's in thier time.


I agree!


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Harley120R*  
_Zamp was born to the Dieterich family and died with the Dieterich family._


Here....use this info to your advantage.

It will be the same as talking to Burt Rutan except a different subject matter.


Zwinger für Deutsche Schäferhunde - vom Grabfeldgau

Familie Reinhard Dieterich
Am Wethfeld 17
97616 Bad Neustadt

Telefon: 09771 97598
Fax: 09771 995677
Handy: 0173 3203260
E-Mail: [email protected]




SuperG


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

bodo grafental

DDR SIEGER V Bodo vom Gräfental


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the greatest of all time --- has to be the dog that inspired it all, that von Stephanitz used as the ideal , Hektor Linksrhein who was renamed to von Stephanitz' name von Grafath V Horand von Grafrath (Hektor Linksrhein)


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> In case you missed it the first time, I posted it two more times below...with a $20,000 budget you can call them up tomorrow and get one by next week I'm sure. Have fun with him!
> 
> *Von Waldberg kennels owned him. They have 6 young adults for sale right now, 4 planned litters, and a SchH 1 titled female for sale.
> 
> ...





robk said:


> This thread started out as a fun thread about great dogs in history and then turned into a mess. Weird.


My apologies. I need a breathalyzer on my key board. I really did want to know if there was a consensus all time great then I hi jacked my own thread with stupidity. 

I'm not here to troll. I really am looking for a dog and will continue to do so. 

Again, sorry for any rudeness and my sometimes misunderstood dry humor. 
Rich.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Harley120R, 

It's not that I can't tell you where to find an excellent German Showline dog, it is that I won't. 

Sorry, but there is a thread on right now where the individual gave the dog back within 72 hours, and the breeder, who I guess is a member of the forum, and people on the forum recommended her. Well she won't refund the money for this pup. The fact is, most of us have not met each other. We may know that some of the people have dogs from this breeder or that breeder. But we may not have had any dealings with them. 

But I ask you Harley, what's in it for us? Why should we do your research for you, and give the names of good breeders to you. You have proved only that you have a pretty idea what you want the dog to look like, that you can be rude, that you can be unreasonable. Why would we want to give your name to someone we respect or give the name of someone we respect to you? 

You want the greatest dog ever. It's a pretty big order. I'm a breeder, and I wouldn't touch you with a pole as a buyer. MOST of us have the greatest dog ever and it really has nothing to do with their looks. 

You can't buy some things. 

And, most people with money do not spout about it. 

Look up Zamp on pedigree database and look at his progeny and find the kennel names that are producing progeny of his. Contact some of them and tell them what you want.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> Harley120R,
> 
> It's not that I can't tell you where to find an excellent German Showline dog, it is that I won't.
> 
> ...


Actually more than a few people gave their opinion on breeders. They just wouldn't do it publicly. 

Your opinion is yours and I'm sure it's shared by others, but not by everyone. I have been given exactly the info that I desired. 

Read my last post, please. 

Have a nice day,
Rich


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Seffe von Blaisenberg.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Harley120R said:


> Actually more than a few people gave their opinion on breeders. They just wouldn't do it publicly.
> 
> Your opinion is yours and I'm sure it's shared by others, but not by everyone. I have been given exactly the info that I desired.
> 
> ...


What others do is their business. 

I hope that you have gotten good recommendations and are not facing the same problems that others have had from their recommendations for breeders here have lately. 

There really aren't any shortcuts, but you can get lucky. 

You don't know us, we don't know you. I wonder if the people who gave you those names actually know the breeders, been to their homes, bought one of their dogs.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> What others do is their business.
> 
> I hope that you have gotten good recommendations and are not facing the same problems that others have had from their recommendations for breeders here have lately.
> 
> ...


Let me ask you this. If you were wanting a Corvette motor built and knew just enough about it to be dangerous, you didn't know a reliable mechanic to do it for you, would you be better off if I told you to research it yourself or if I told you who my mechanic was?

There are SHORTCUTS. It is called past experience from others. A child doesn't have to invent the wheel when it needs transportation. The child can rely on history, past experience and others advice. 

I have researched. I have answers. You don't like how I procured them. What others do is our business, you are correct.

If you would like the recommendations I have received, feel free to pm me and ask. I won't discuss them publicly here since they were sent privately to me. Must be a reason they did that.

Have a nice day


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## S.F. (Nov 2, 2013)

Someone posted this site http://www.germanshepherdguide.com not so long ago and it had helped me to better understand the breed. Maybe you will find it helpful. Check out the 'German Shepherd Types' tab.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Actually, I probably wouldn't post on public forums, 

"Hey, I have 20k (or 4-10 times the going rate for a motor of that caliber) to work on getting a new motor for my Corvette. Can any of you point me to someone who can do that for me?" 

No breeder bashing is allowed publically, but if someone gives you a scoundrel's name publically, someone might PM you and tell you what their experience with said breeder was. I am not sure why anyone would give a breeder they thought was excellent through PM. I mean, it doesn't have to mean anything really, but it is possible that they are avoiding scrutiny for a friend. Though anyone giving a recommendation, private or public, probably does believe the breeder to be a reputable source for the type of dog you want.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> Actually, I probably wouldn't post on public forums,
> 
> "Hey, I have 20k (or 4-10 times the going rate for a motor of that caliber) to work on getting a new motor for my Corvette. Can any of you point me to someone who can do that for me?"
> 
> No breeder bashing is allowed publically, but if someone gives you a scoundrel's name publically, someone might PM you and tell you what their experience with said breeder was. I am not sure why anyone would give a breeder they thought was excellent through PM. I mean, it doesn't have to mean anything really, but it is possible that they are avoiding scrutiny for a friend. Though anyone giving a recommendation, private or public, probably does believe the breeder to be a reputable source for the type of dog you want.


Your way is the only way, obviously. 

Many that have been posted publicly have been scrutinized privately. 

I did find my engine mechanic through a public forum. Someone in the know PM me his name. I also found my tuner that way. Thru a pm on a public forum. Sometimes the Top Dogs like to keep their circle small. You would never find my mechanic or tuner, because they don't advertise. They don't have to. Seems the bigger the ad these days, the less quality the work. 

If you don't understand the analogy, their might be a type dog breeder that is suited for me that I just can't google. Thankfully, a breeder of working dogs recommended a breeder that he knows, met and trusts. With that info I was then able to narrow my google and I like what I saw. 

You said you breed dogs. What is the name of your kennel? I didn't see it in your signature. Is it only for your inner circle or can it be googled?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

You like cars? Ill put it to you this way. You dont ever just buy a car based on its looks alone. You buy based on its preformance options and how they match your goals with the vehicle. The car I buy for track racing, dailey driving or drifting varries widely. Looks are a factor but not the exclusive determining factor.

Its like going on a car forum and saying I want a red one where do I get one?! I could say just go to Honda but that may not suit what you need.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I'm tiny. I generally only have 1 or 2 litters a year, and maybe not even that. And, I don't have a website. I don't ship puppies. These pups are now almost a year old, and they were my last litter. 

This is one of the boys I sold in 2013, no Zamp, more Pakros, Vegas, Karma and more in that vein:


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> You like cars? Ill put it to you this way. You dont ever just buy a car based on its looks alone. You buy based on its preformance options and how they match your goals with the vehicle. The car I buy for track racing, dailey driving or drifting varries widely. Looks are a factor but not the exclusive determining factor.
> 
> Its like going on a car forum and saying I want a red one where do I get one?! I could say just go to Honda but that may not suit what you need.


You are correct and I agree with you. Would you agree that my Corvette should look like a Corvette and not like a Chevette?

Actually it was silly of me to say what I wanted the dog to look like, since any responsible breeder should be breeding to a certain standard anyway. That was pointed out to me earlier. 

A responsible breeder won't breed dogs that turn out to look like Gorillas, so that is one less thing to worry about.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> I'm tiny. I generally only have 1 or 2 litters a year, and maybe not even that. And, I don't have a website. I don't ship puppies. These pups are now almost a year old, and they were my last litter.
> 
> This is one of the boys I sold in 2013, no Zamp, more Pakros, Vegas, Karma and more in that vein:


Very nice from what I can see. Thank you for the picture. How would you describe your dogs? Are you active in events? I believe there is a big event in May in my home town. Will you be there?


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Harley120R said:


> You are correct and I agree with you. Would you agree that my Corvette should look like a Corvette and not like a Chevette?
> 
> Actually it was silly of me to say what I wanted the dog to look like, since any responsible breeder should be breeding to a certain standard anyway. That was pointed out to me earlier.
> 
> A responsible breeder won't breed dogs that turn out to look like Gorillas, so that is one less thing to worry about.


Looks are a matter of taste. You see so many variations within any line. The most important thing to me is my corvette actually Perform like a corvette. The dog world is full of corvettes with lawn mower engines.You want a dog capable of work you buy where the pros buy. You want a show dog you do likewise.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Probably not, since my club usually holds one of their main events in May. Of course, I don't know where your home town is, so who knows, it may be the same event.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Looks are a matter of taste. You see so many variations within any line. The most important thing to me is my corvette actually Perform like a corvette. The dog world is full of corvettes with lawn mower engines.You want a dog capable of work you buy where the pros buy. You want a show dog you do likewise.


You make a lot of sense. Hard for me to argue. At some point I've said I want a West show line dog. I don't think there should be much variance in looks there or they wouldn't be a WGSD with west german show line heritage would they? I'm probably wrong. 

So now that we know what kind I want, I'm concentrating on the best one I can get. 

If you asked me about a Corvette in a Corvette forum, I wouldn't tell you to buy a Ferrari because it performs better or a Malibu because looks or a matter of taste.

Unfortunately this isn't a car I can modify. I get one chance. I will love it no matter. I want the little guy to be proud of himself. I already am and don't even have him yet. 

My two a Golden Retrievers weren't exactly show quality and I loved them to death. 

My two Beagles were rescues. One was mean as heck and one was sweet as could be. They were both loved and spoiled the same. RIP

So, once again, I want a WGSD show line with the best breeding, temperament, etc that I can get.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Usually WGSD would be a White German Shepherd Dog. I think you want a GSL dog which is what Zamp was. I think. 

They used to call some of the working lines WGWL -- West German Working Lines, some called the show lines West German Show lines. There are East German Working Lines, which I think is also called DDR. Then there are the Czech dogs. 

It's more like if you want a Camaro and someone tells you that you can have a Z-whatever package or a Berlinetta -- basically the same car just loaded down. If we were telling you to check out a Ferrari -- that would be more like us saying you should really be looking at Dobermans or Rottweilers.

ETA: We are proud of our dogs. The dogs are not proud of themselves. They really don't care if they have Zamp in their background or a rangy, mangy border collie mix that hopped the fence. They don't care if their ears stand or their toes stick out, or their tail is curly or their coat is long. 

They could teach us a thing or two about what is important, maybe.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

selzer said:


> Usually WGSD would be a White German Shepherd Dog. I think you want a GSL dog which is what Zamp was. I think.
> 
> They used to call some of the working lines WGWL -- West German Working Lines, some called the show lines West German Show lines. There are East German Working Lines, which I think is also called DDR. Then there are the Czech dogs.
> 
> ...


ETA means estimated time of arrival so I don't understand your reference.
Berlinettas are no longer made. I don't want an extinct dog.
Camaro Z28's are actually a stripped down version of the car, but cost more. More motor, less everything else.

WGSD w/ west German show lines is what I used. I see how that could be confusing to the professionals. West German Shepherd Dog with West German Show Lines. I believe that is what Zamp was. I'll work on my abbreviations. Lesson learned. I got that abbreviation from some of the better known reputable breeder sites. Be a good way to spot a shifty breeder if they are using the wrong terms. Read it in picking a breeder section.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

ETA also means "edited to add".


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Lol there is wide variation in GSLs when it comes to temperment and drive. 
Im personally into working lines so I cannot tell you what are good/bad GSLs to get into. I have only seen SLs I dont like.
You do hear good things about Alta Tollhause on here but I have never personally seen one of their dogs. I have seen some decent youtube clips but you never know.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I can say I've met selzer in person, and a litter of her pups along with the dam and another of her bitches, and they were impressively nice looking dogs. And Mama was well behaved and acted like what I think a GSD should. So if somebody were in her area and looking for a good GSD, I'd feel comfortable recommending selzer to them, and assume they could figure out if it was a good match from there. 

As far as a greatest dog, I can't say how there would ever be an agreement on which dog was THE greatest, since a lot of people would have different qualifications in mind, and no one dog could meet ALL of them. Where one person may be expecting a typical black and tan dog as ideal, another may think black is best. Where one person may want an over the top prey drive and over the top energy, another may be interested in a high food drive and a calmer temperament. There's not really a right and wrong here, simply differences in expectations.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Stumbled across this while i was window shopping.

German Shepherd Dog Male for sale: Top male son VA1 ZAMP von Thermodos (id: 205977)


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> Stumbled across this while i was window shopping.
> 
> German Shepherd Dog Male for sale: Top male son VA1 ZAMP von Thermodos (id: 205977)


Perfect, OP the search ends here!! You should be so excited, with a $20,000 budget and the strong demand, I fully expect OP to purchase this dog asap and we will soon be seeing pics everywhere of him from OP.

I hope you deliver OP, this is EXACTLY what you want and it says the price is reasonable, probably right around your $20,000 budget. 

You'll probably just ignore this though, act like you didn't see it, or find something wrong with him that you claim you don't want to spend your $20,000 on....even though this is exactly what you wanted, a SON from your "perfect" dog.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

I love dogs, I love the work that comes with them, but the PERFECT dog ever is:

One you don't have to train, walk, feed, socialize, you can leave it for days on end and it thrives, it loves to be poked, prodded, cuddled, hugged, snuggled, kissed on, it wont fight for its place in the pack, isn't dog, cat or animal aggressive, loves everyone while being a loof at the same time, doesn't jump, get in the trash, doesn't have to be crate trained!

This dog is...*drumroll*............a stuffed one!




Wait...not what you were looking for?



(sorry I don't know much about breeding lines.)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the pedigree has all the usual suspects - and what a strange picture of the protection pose --


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> Perfect, OP the search ends here!! You should be so excited, with a $20,000 budget and the strong demand, I fully expect OP to purchase this dog asap and we will soon be seeing pics everywhere of him from OP.
> 
> I hope you deliver OP, this is EXACTLY what you want and it says the price is reasonable, probably right around your $20,000 budget.
> 
> You'll probably just ignore this though, act like you didn't see it, or find something wrong with him that you claim you don't want to spend your $20,000 on....even though this is exactly what you wanted, a SON from your "perfect" dog.


I'll laugh along with you and not get all bent out of shape at a little poke. 

I found this before for only $10K. Available Dogs

The problem is you don't know what I want. I don't want a full-grown dog three or six years old. My family wants a puppy. 

Thanks for playing, please come again.


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## Bequavious (Mar 9, 2013)

How can Zamp be the best dog ever? He doesn't even have a Wikipedia page!  Personally I'd go with the real Rin Tin Tin as well given he's a classic rags to riches star and not only has a lengthy Wikipedia entry but his own book 

If you're still stuck on Zamp though, I'd talk to the Dieterichs themselves. From my brief google it looks like Lisa does training for some kennels in England and i'm sure she'd be happy to help you out. If not, there are countless WGSL breeders right here in the States (just taking a wild guess that you're American) with show quality dogs of stable temperament and intelligence in line with the breed (if you really want a dog Einstein, they're generally Border Collies and would drive the average owner bat crazy). Good luck getting a puppy that doesn't bite, though. They almost all go through the land shark phase 

PS- the person who invents a breathalyzer keyboard would probably make a good amount of money, but it would greatly reduce the entertainment value of online forums 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Bequavious said:


> How can Zamp be the best dog ever? He doesn't even have a Wikipedia page!  Personally I'd go with the real Rin Tin Tin as well given he's a classic rags to riches star and not only has a lengthy Wikipedia entry but his own book
> 
> If you're still stuck on Zamp though, I'd talk to the Dieterichs themselves. From my brief google it looks like Lisa does training for some kennels in England and i'm sure she'd be happy to help you out. If not, there are countless WGSL breeders right here in the States (just taking a wild guess that you're American) with show quality dogs of stable temperament and intelligence in line with the breed (if you really want a dog Einstein, they're generally Border Collies and would drive the average owner bat crazy). Good luck getting a puppy that doesn't bite, though. They almost all go through the land shark phase
> 
> ...


I like your post. Thanks. 

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## Daisy&Lucky's Mom (Apr 24, 2011)

Harley120R said:


> Wow. Ok I want the best dog in the world. Who should I call?


The best dog in the world for me might be completely different in tempermant and drive as well as hardness/softness then what might be right for you. Everyone wants a physically healthy dog but what do you want to do w/ the dog? To quote someone who posted all ready "the happiest dogs are w/ happy owners. I probably would not be happy w/ a dog who neeeded a 5 mile run twice a day but other people thats what they need and want. ( just using an extreme example)

I dont know the names of the WGSL or DDR dogs as to who the greatest was. Lance of Fran Jo was mentioned by someone . He won alot and from everything I read appeared to have sound temperment Unfortunately the only way to find your greatest dog is research and to met breeders and go to shows and/or trials and see what makes your definition greatest dog.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

selzer said:


> ... more Pakros, Vegas, Karma...


I've always loved seeing your dogs, Selzer - I think they're all gorgeous (big thread hijack here, sorry guys) If my memory serves, your dogs are all German show lines, correct? I'm a noob at all this, so bear with me, lol. 

I've assumed these GSDs are all very similar, like Doggiedad's avatar, the fluffier red and black. But your dogs look like they have a shorter stock coat, and a totally different color altogether -like the picture you posted in this thread, with that ticking in the fur around the neck (if that's how you say it when it applies to GSDs, or if that's a 'bitch stripe' on the neck? Please advise, lol).

Anyway, I'm curious now - are there distinct versions of the German show lines too? Or am I seeing things? Thanks for helping me learn a little more about these wonderful dogs!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

What happened to the "greatest Dog" list?
I'm sorry to say Zamp wasn't one of them. IMO.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> Just wondering, if for the sake of argument, in my mind, Superman was the greatest Super hero, Babe Ruth was the greatest Ball player, Ali, King Kong, Einstein, Pele, etc.
> 
> Was/is there a "Greatest German Shepherd" of all time? I know most will say their own dog. Good for you. Except for your own dog, is their a greatest of all time?


I've read this whole thread. Some good, some not so good. 

Personal perspective comming here. 

This is like walking onto a car lot with a Corvette, Camaro and a Chevelle and asking which car is the greatest car of all time. All three cars mean something to different people. The Corvette is probably the best all around car for street and strip, but the Camaro has won titles in both road course and drag racing. The Chevelle is just like a homerun hitter. Everybody loves the big strong homerun hitter even though he's one demensional. For one thing, there can't be a best of all time GSD. Just the best so far. The only way you can have a G.O.A.T. is if the breed is no longer around or it's the end of time.

I've seen several well versed people in this thread, some I would consider experts in this breed, give you advice on what to do. If you have done the research, you should know what direction to go by now. If your comming here now to ask advice after the research is fine. But you've been asked what you want the dog for. This is not to pry into anything personal, it's to point you in the right direction. You have yet to answer that question. It's like saying "I want to buy a white colored vehicle" to a salesman. He has no idea if your offroading, driving for around town, wanting to race a road course or drag race, if you prefer a vehicle with good mileage or not so good. All he knows is you want a white vehicle. So getting the answer you want is much harder if you don't address some minor questions.

I'm prositive there have been numerous GSD's out there who are heads above alot of dogs who have never been titled in anything. They are just great dogs. Not all dogs are created equal. Just because you get a dog from the lineage you are looking at doesn't mean the pup you buy will be just like the dog in the picture.

Good luck with your search.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *jafo220*
> _I've read this whole thread. Some good, some not so good. _
> 
> _Personal perspective comming here. _
> ...


Thank you
I've pretty much found the info I needed, but do you mind if I ask some questions because maybe I don't understand some things or maybe I'm really bad at explaining myself?

First I hijacked this thread. I didn't mean to ask about dogs for myself here. That was a manifestation of drinking 20 beers and not wanting to start another or clutter up another thread.

I did want to know if there was any Super dogs out there after reading Zamp the Legend article. 

I used Zamp as an example of what I wanted. Just like I would use Lassie as an example if I was trying to describe a collie. Silver if I wanted a White horse. I wouldn't actually need them or their descendent seven though I think it would be cool. 

My question is this. If I was looking for a West German Show line dog of black and red color and wanted to know a reputable breeder, what would me using it for make a difference?

Bare with me now. Do reputable breeders of the type of dog I asked about breed them with good or bad temperament? 

Isn't there a West German Breed Standard of the West German Shepherd?
I said before I was wrong in saying what the dog should look like. A West German Shepherd of West German Show Line should be self explanatory. I didn't know that then. I know that know. Like someone else said, "Cookie cutter."

What reputable breeder wouldn't breed to the standard?

What reputable breeder breeds with bad temperament?

I'm sure some dogs have more drive than others, correct? Isn't that why the reputable breeder matches the pup to the owner?

Just a few questions that I might not understand and am probably wrong about or people can't grasp my 3rd grade writing skills. Or it could be that some people do understand me but always have to feel right about something.

When buying a tiger do you have to say you want one with stripes? What about and eagle that flies?

I just want a reputable breeder and not a BYB that thinks they are a reputable breeder. 

Who would refer me to a reputable breeder that doesn't adhere to these standards:
General Appearance

The German Shepherd Dog is medium sized, slightly longer than tall, strong and well muscled, bone is dry, the whole dog presenting a picture of firmness.

Important Measurements

Height at the withers for males: 60 - 65 cm, bitches: 55 - 60 cm. Length of torso exceeds height at the withers by 10 - 17%.

Character

The German Shepherd should appear poised, calm, self confident, absolutely at ease, and (except when agitated) good natured, but also attentive and willing to serve. He must have courage, fighting drive, and hardness in order to serve as companion, watchdog, protection dog, service dog, and herding dog.

Head

The head is wedge-shaped and in harmony with the dog’s size (length app. 40% of height at the withers) without being coarse or overly long. The head should appear dry, and moderately wide between the ears. Seen from the front and side, the forehead is only slightly domed, the center furrow is either absent or only slightly visible. The length ratio of skull to face is 50 : 50%. Skull width approximately equals skull length. Seen from above, the skull slopes into a wedge-shaped muzzle. The stop should not be pronounced. Upper and lower jaws are strong, the bridge of the nose should be straight, not a Roman nose or dish-faced nose. Lips are taut, well closed and of dark color.

The Nose

The nose should be black.

Teeth

The teeth must be strong and complete in number (42 teeth as per formula). The German Shepherd has a scissor bite, where the upper incisors must meet the lower incisors in a scissor grip. Level bite, overshot and undershot teeth are faulty, as well as widely-spaced teeth. A straight incisor tooth line is also faulty. Jawbones must be well developed, to permit deep rooting of the teeth in the gum.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Ah ha!!! The question boils down to the phrase "reputable breeder"!!!!

The whole process of breeding is to try to produce the ideal dog as described by the standard - not just the physical picture, but the character and personality and workability of that individual....

As a general impression from online, in person and knowing people in both camps (staying within Euro lines here!)

The WL breeders feel the SL line breeders ignore the workability and character...

The SL breeders feel the WL are breeding ugly crazy dogs who will eat your kids (no kidding, a very well known SL breeder told a buyer that who was looking at one of my dogs....and the husband of the person is a K9 officer to boot - he was unhappy, but the wife got the weak nerved SL dog)

Very very few people look at the big picture of their type and admit that something is needed to complete the dog....granted this is a bit 'tongue in cheek' - but not so far off reality!


Frankly, I ***LIKE*** the looks and prefer them of my working lines! As a horseman, I preferred performance horses looks to halter horses too....horse people don't get in such a snit over type as dog people....

So finding a reputable breeder - ie, one who will acknowledge that they breed with a high priority on conformation, to the detriment of working ability or character is not going to be easy....finding one with strong ethics and moral integrity is going to add to the difficulty! 

Lee


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

and what wolfstraum just said is why it matters what you want the dog for . If you have some high expectations to do performance sports, or personal protection needs, then you have to be very diligent and find that show line breeder who understands and makes the effort to come up with a dog that can handle it. Not fair to expect the dog to offer something that it simply can not. Easy to find the looks you are after . You don't want to be disappointed .


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Harley120R

I believe the standards you submitted are for an American bred GSD...not European.

WGSL with a Rasse-Echtheitszertifikat "suggests" the dog is of a certain quality or better yet it's pedigree is.

Here maybe this will help you.

"Rasse-Echtheitszertifikat" heißt das wichtigste Papier, das ein Schäferhundkäufer erhalten muss. Nur ein vom FCI und VDH anerkannter Verein wie der SV stellt es aus. Kein Hund ohne diesen Pass kann als rassereiner Deutscher Schäferhund gelten. Anders als Ahnentafeln, die vier Generationen zurückgehen, führt der Stammbaum zur Wurzel der Rasse – zum Stammvater. Beim SV ist das „Horand von Grafrath“, Zuchtbuchnummer eins. 
Erstellt und ausgegeben wird die Ahnentafel vom SV. In diesem "vereinsamtlichen Auszug" aus dem Zuchtbuch (darin sind zurzeit über 2 Mio. Hunde erfasst) sind die insgesamt 30 direkten Vorfahren des Tiers angegeben. Das Rasse-Echtheitszertifikat führt also bis in die Generation der Ururgroßeltern des Hundes zurück und gibt auch Auskunft über deren Qualitäten. Für 30 Hunde sind darin einzeln die Leistungsnachweise aufgeführt, Informationen über Farbe der Geschwister und über Haarart, Farben, Ausbildungs-, Ausstellungs- und Körergebnisse der Vorfahren und deren Geschwister. Für den verantwortungsvollen Züchter bieten die hier zusammengestellten Informationen die wichtigste Grundlage für eine planvolle Arbeit. 



SuperG


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

I think you missed my point maybe? What I was saying with those anologies was there is more to it than how tall, how long...... read your own post on the conformation.

Think about this. Not knocking showlines, they are some handsome dogs, but everyone has to admit that this breed of dog was created to be a working dog. Not all GSD's come out the same. Some breeders place you with a pup, some don't. Doesn't make them less a breeder if they breed good lines in my book. There are so many layers to this topic.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Harley120R
> 
> I believe the standards you submitted are for an American bred GSD...not European.
> 
> ...


I took that off the site titled: German shepherd breed standard of the West german shepherd. 

It started off like this:

In accordance with the official provisions of the German Shepherd Dog Club (SV) e.V., located in Augsburg, a member of the Federation of Dog Clubs in Germany (VDH) is the founding organization of the German Shepherd Dog and therefore, responsible for the breed standard.

Work on this document was begun at the first membership meeting in Frankfurt/M on September 20, 1899 and is based on proposals by A. Meyer and v. Stephanitz.

But, who am I to argue.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

jafo220 said:


> I think you missed my point maybe? What I was saying with those anologies was there is more to it than how tall, how long...... read your own post on the conformation.
> 
> Think about this. Not knocking showlines, they are some handsome dogs, but everyone has to admit that this breed of dog was created to be a working dog. Not all GSD's come out the same. Some breeders place you with a pup, some don't. Doesn't make them less a breeder if they breed good lines in my book. There are so many layers to this topic.


Here's the problem with a working dog with me. Where will he work? Simple as that. 

Besides that, I may hold the purse strings, but SHE takes care of the house. Get what I'm saying there? While talking her out of a Lab into a GSD she agreed after seeing a dog like Zamp. After seeing some of the working dogs, she said I could sleep outside with it. 

Now I'm not one to put down any dog. I think some working dogs are fabulous looking. But since I don't have a job for a dog. Have never seen a live sheep myself that the dog could herd. I'm not joining the police department. Why would I take a chance on sleeping outside with the dog when I want a nice looking dog that lives in the house with me?


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

carmspack said:


> and what wolfstraum just said is why it matters what you want the dog for . If you have some high expectations to do performance sports, or personal protection needs, then you have to be very diligent and find that show line breeder who understands and makes the effort to come up with a dog that can handle it. Not fair to expect the dog to offer something that it simply can not. Easy to find the looks you are after . You don't want to be disappointed .


Duly noted and he advised me where to get such a dog. Some people, not you, act like a show line dog is totally incapable of anything except posing and that just isn't the case.


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

lol...I wish that statement was completely false..but again thats personal perspective. I like a dog that is capable of protecting my family and property and doing dog sport. A solid nerved healthy animal, I could take my chances on a SL and I may (huge may) be successful but my odds are that much better with a WL. Plus I generally hate the structure on most of the newer SLs, like X Box who is popular around here.

If I just wanted a relaxed pet I would go for the SL or lab...Sounds like what you want is more a minivan type dog as long as we are sticking with car analogies.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Harley120R said:


> Now I'm not one to put down any dog. I think some working dogs are fabulous looking. But since I don't have a job for a dog. Have never seen a live sheep myself that the dog could herd. I'm not joining the police department. Why would I take a chance on sleeping outside with the dog when I want a nice looking dog that lives in the house with me?


If you have kids the dog can herd them.  (jk) 
Seriously, replace real work with mental stimulation, training and exercise, the dog won't miss the sheep. 
If you don't have time to train or exercise a dog you can end up with a mess on your hands regardless of what label the dog came with. (working vs. show line)


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Rasse-Echtheitszertifikat" is a certificate of breed purity --- the PINK PAPERS

it signifies that all ancestors were registered with the breed club - a closed stud book 

it is comparable to a north American certified pedigree , except, that it provides more information .


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Blitzkrieg1 said:


> lol...I wish that statement was completely false..but again thats personal perspective. I like a dog that is capable of protecting my family and property and doing dog sport. A solid nerved healthy animal, I could take my chances on a SL and I may (huge may) be successful but my odds are that much better with a WL. Plus I generally hate the structure on most of the newer SLs, like X Box who is popular around here.
> 
> If I just wanted a relaxed pet I would go for the SL or lab...Sounds like what you want is more a minivan type dog as long as we are sticking with car analogies.


Let's do a car analogy on the WL GSD. 
Bugatti Veyron. Ugly as **** except to the most avid fan. Super hyper motor. Can't be driven to its full potential except by the most capable drivers. Hard to handle. High maintenance. Most will never see its top speed. It was built for speed but most will just was and wax it. 

I do have YouTube. I see SL dogs do much more than Show. I'm actually amazed. But that's coming from someone that raised a half retarded Golden Retriever. I'd throw the ball, he'd get it twice. On the third throw he'd look at me as if I was stupid. If he could talk he'd have said, "I got it twice, why you keep throwing it away?" What a good little dog.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Whiteshepherds said:


> If you have kids the dog can herd them.  (jk)
> Seriously, replace real work with mental stimulation, training and exercise, the dog won't miss the sheep.
> If you don't have time to train or exercise a dog you can end up with a mess on your hands regardless of what label the dog came with. (working vs. show line)


Can't I give mental stimulation, training and exercise to the type of dog I want?


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *carmspack*  
_Rasse-Echtheitszertifikat" is a certificate of breed purity --- the PINK PAPERS

it signifies that all ancestors were registered with the breed club - a closed stud book 

it is comparable to a north American certified pedigree , except, that it provides more information ._


Pink papered is more than simply "breed purity" as any pink papered GSD must have both parents proven their working ability by attaining titles of at least SchH1 and have received a Breed Survey (Körung) that is current at the time of whelping. American pedigree as far as I have seen has nothing to do with performance but I could be wrong.

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

And there is more.... The dog must have an OFA hip certification of Excellent, Good or Fair or have received an 'A' stamp rating of Normal, Fast Normal (almost normal) or Noch Zuglassen (still allowable) from the SV in Germany. The dog is eligible for an OFA rating at 24 months of age or for an 'A' Stamp at 12 months of age. The dog must also have gotten a show rating of Good or better in the 18-24 month class or Good or better in the Working Class (24 months of age with title). In addition to these requirements, the dog and handler must prove their stamina in a 12+ mile endurance test where the dog gaits alongside the bicycling handler. This test is called the Ausdauerprüfung (Endurance Test).

So....North American Pedigree certification is simply that....pedigree, genetics. While the rasse echtheitszertifikat is all that plus much much more.

SuperG


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## Blitzkrieg1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Harley120R said:


> Let's do a car analogy on the WL GSD.
> Bugatti Veyron. Ugly as **** except to the most avid fan. Super hyper motor. Can't be driven to its full potential except by the most capable drivers. Hard to handle. High maintenance. Most will never see its top speed. It was built for speed but most will just was and wax it.
> 
> I do have YouTube. I see SL dogs do much more than Show. I'm actually amazed. But that's coming from someone that raised a half retarded Golden Retriever. I'd throw the ball, he'd get it twice. On the third throw he'd look at me as if I was stupid. If he could talk he'd have said, "I got it twice, why you keep throwing it away?" What a good little dog.


Lol my friend there are working lines and working lines. Watching a few youtube clip of a tuner being done up doesnt make me knowledgable neither does watching a few dogs bark for a sleeve. No one takes vids of the dog running with their kids or hanging b y the fireplace. Some are easy to live with others require a stronger handler. There is a huge variance withing WLs.

They are actually what the GSD used to look like. To my eye most SLs look malformed and slow. Again we all have our preferences.
Go through the threads on here there are many SL dogs that have temperment and health issues. Are they a more forgiving dog to a first timer? Depends on the dog..


All I can say was I wish it was as easy as going to the dealership and buying a car, but since they are living things we can only speak in generalities and from personal experience. 
When your a car nut you see and hear a lot of things when you watch a car drive, hear the engine, watch it corner etc that the average people miss. 
Its the same thing with many dog people. Dogs that once seemed awesome looking and strong now are revealed to the discerning eye for what they are mediocre or often even weak.

Its a jungle out there with plenty of people that want your money and will happily sell you their garbage since you wouldnt necessarily know what you were looking at or simply cause they dont know themselves. Becareful.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> I took that off the site titled: German shepherd breed standard of the West german shepherd.
> 
> It started off like this:
> 
> ...


A few items have changed then...such as coat for one.


SuperG


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> Let's do a car analogy on the WL GSD.
> Bugatti Veyron. Ugly as **** except to the most avid fan. Super hyper motor. Can't be driven to its full potential except by the most capable drivers. Hard to handle. High maintenance. Most will never see its top speed. It was built for speed but most will just was and wax it.
> 
> I do have YouTube. I see SL dogs do much more than Show. I'm actually amazed. But that's coming from someone that raised a half retarded Golden Retriever. I'd throw the ball, he'd get it twice. On the third throw he'd look at me as if I was stupid. If he could talk he'd have said, "I got it twice, why you keep throwing it away?" What a good little dog.


Bugattie Veyron is cool looking to me...you'd probably turn it down though, because of looks, right?? 

I love people spouting off about a breed or line, and what they believe it is when they have never seen one, worked one, let alone lived with one. There are extremes in everything. *Most around here with working lines do nothing more than spoil their family pet. It's just as wrong for me to say all showlines are lazy as it is that all working lines are neurotic messes....fwiw, my working line is ten times easier to live with than my show line was at this same age. There are examples of everything.

Didn't like the mini van analogy, huh?? Zamp is like the _mercedes_ mini van....better??  

ETA (that means edited to add  ): I could show someone a youtube of racing a mini van and impress anyone who hasn't seen a nascar/indy/drag race before. A sucker is born every minute. ;-) Also fwiw (that means 'for what it's worth')..sounds like your golden wasn't "retarded" but more intelligent and needed/wanted more than a game of simple fetch.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Harley120R said:


> Don't get me wrong. I want a high quality, healthy dog that looks like Zamp. I'm willing to pay $20k right now. He has to be show quality. Smarter than Einstein and doesn't bite his owner. I'm allergic to dog bites.
> 
> **** crying shame that everyone on this board knows what quality should be found in a dog, redicules me for liking Zamp's looks, but not one person could recommend where to but one.
> 
> ...


I've got a high quality healthy WGSL dog. I got her from rescue for $100.00 

and she is totally the greatest of all time so spend your 20k your dog will never be as good as mine.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

DaniFani said:


> Bugattie Veyron is cool looking to me...you'd probably turn it down though, because of looks, right??
> 
> I love people spouting off about a breed or line, and what they believe it is when they have never seen one, worked one, let alone lived with one. There are extremes in everything. *Most around here with working lines do nothing more than spoil their family pet. It's just as wrong for me to say all showlines are lazy as it is that all working lines are neurotic messes....fwiw, my working line is ten times easier to live with than my show line was at this same age. There are examples of everything.
> 
> ...


Tsk tsk. No Fani, my feelings are a lot tougher to get to than a few words on the internet by a complete stranger. 

The Veyron is ugly and a useless car to me. Lamborghini and Ferrari are more my style. 

IWT (I was told) that this forum leans to the WL dog. IWT that by WL breeders. IWT that WL owners feel an irrational need to defend the looks of their dogs since most people think they look like mangy mongrels. IWT that they do it at the expense of other dogs. IWT that they try to sway you to like their blood line so they can feel better about their dog. 

I don't have that inferiority complex. I like the SL GSD better. 

Fani do all your post border on personal attacks?

ETDIOIR (edited to dish it out in return) Maybe it's easier to live with your WL dog because he will do anything asked and can overcome bad training. 
The SL dog needed a firmer hand to get what you wanted and you weren't capable. 

Funny how you can comment on a Golden Retriever you never saw, met or lived with. You're better than the dog whisperer. 

Fani, you've been a member here a whole year longer than me. That's like 7 years in dog terms. Please list your dog titles/accomplishments, so I can congratulate you on them. 

Since you've read the entire board and IJGH ( I just got here) please explain how those show dogs get those Schh3 titles to prove their working credentials. Oh, I bet they bought them.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

shepherdmom said:


> I've got a high quality healthy WGSL dog. I got her from rescue for $100.00
> 
> and she is totally the greatest of all time so spend your 20k your dog will never be as good as mine.


More pictures. And you're right, you have the best dog.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

WOW - this went south....retreat to your corner, take a big breath - exhale....take a drink -  no more beer for you H120R!!  

Me - I will take an old XKE ..... or maybe a Ferrari over most anything....

TMTTGYBTLU!!!
(thats me trying to get you both to lighten up!)

Working line dogs can often live in a family environment without being trained for competition of any sort....their job simple enough as playing fetch (somewhat obessively at times, I admit).... 

Many people do prefer the looks of the WGSL - the vast majority of GSDs are black saddled brown base colored dogs....John Q. Public sees this as synonymous with GSD as they do Kleenex with tissues....or Xerox with copying...I don't need to defend the looks of my working dog....I have always gotten ALOT of comments and compliments on my dogs as far as looks.....I don't try to sway people to like their looks better....

Yes, there are many Sch3s done on WGSL dogs - esp in Europe, where the scorebook was signed off in a bar, closed trials, midnight trials, dogs sold here who did not know how to heel and who would book for the woods at the sight of a dumbbell. I have seen GSDs and imported Rotties with titles and scorebooks who apparently had maybe pottied on the trial field to get those titles...

A very good WGSL breeder/handler once told me that many showline dogs could work, but not under pressure. The hardest phase for many is obedience - correct positioning and timing is tough....yes some get titles, and real scores...seen many SL dogs at trials and at Koeurings....the precise work is not usually there....I remember the first koer I attended, and a young guy's jubilation at his dog biting with front teeth and staying on the sleeve in the attack on handler exercise...my working line female had to repeat the exercise as she overbalanced the helper and he went down....with her still on in a full grip....Both dogs got KKL1...the SL dog got a V, mine got SG1.....

There IS a big difference in the performance....as well as the looks.....

Some people like to drive a Caddy, some a Corvette.....

  I have to drive an SUV now - to cart around my 'ugly' working line dogs.... 

Lee


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

wolfstraum said:


> Yes, there are many Sch3s done on WGSL dogs - esp in Europe, where the scorebook was signed off in a bar, closed trials, midnight trials, dogs sold here who did not know how to heel and who would book for the woods at the sight of a dumbbell. *I have seen GSDs and imported Rotties with titles and scorebooks who apparently had maybe pottied on the trial field to get those titles...*
> Lee


Haha. 

Thanks Lee for the common sense. I'm not only going to return to my corner, I'm going to withdraw from this ring. Nothing more to say here. 
Might go to the garage and make motorcycle noises on my Harley until the snow melts. 
Thanks Lee for your help and everyone else that made it fun during the blizzard. Yes, even those with those ugly WL dogs. 

I'm out. Lower curtain.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Harley120R said:


> More pictures. And you're right, you have the best dog.


LOL Thank you!  We think she is pretty special. Unfortunately I take crappy pictures so she never looks as red as she really is.


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> Tsk tsk. No Fani, my feelings are a lot tougher to get to than a few words on the internet by a complete stranger.
> 
> The Veyron is ugly and a useless car to me. Lamborghini and Ferrari are more my style.
> 
> ...


The show line dog peed himself if he got a "harder hand"....it usually took a look to get him to do what I wanted.

Feel free to peruse my history to see my experience and knowledge, I promise you the length someone has been on this forum, has NOTHING to do with their experience level. The fact that you think someone posting a certain number of times = experience, makes me laugh...and it explains a lot about you. 

You came on here drunk and looking for a fight...you're really that shocked with what you got? I'm not trying to sway you to anything (except def not giving you any names of anyone I know, I wouldn't want to put anyone through dealing with you). I recommend lots of showline breeders, based only on my tiny research on them, and tell the friend I'm recommending to look further, because my thoughts are based purely on what I could find online.

You're really surprised that people are defending the working line that you made claims couldn't live in the home, couldn't be easily trained, and was basically a disaster unless it was working at a police department (believe it or not those dogs actually have to be HIGHLY social...but I don't know anything about them ;-))

Well, it's getting late, on the extremely odd chance  you are liquored up again I'm going to sign off from this discussion. Good luck. :crazy:

Sticking to my troll theory.....


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## my boy diesel (Mar 9, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> Wow. Ok I want the best dog in the world. Who should I call?


me. mine's the best :wub::wub::wub:


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

My dog is the ugliest.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Sunflowers said:


> My dog is the ugliest.


 no....mine is! And he dares you to defy it


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

onyx'girl said:


> no....mine is! And he dares you to defy it


Looks like a wolf or werewolf. Bad donkey butt.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm late to this thread, maybe it's already been mentioned but Zamp died (of cancer I think) when he was not that old. Not sure if health and longevity is taken into account as far as the "greats". Of course hindsight is 20/20 and no one could have known that would happen but it does raise the question of just how many breedings or pedigrees one dog can or should influence. ETA: I'm not saying Zamp wasn't great, I helped raise a daughter from one of his last breedings, just that we have to be responsible with how popular a dog can be and how often they're bred.


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## Harley120R (Jan 1, 2014)

Liesje said:


> I'm late to this thread, maybe it's already been mentioned but Zamp died (of cancer I think) when he was not that old. Not sure if health and longevity is taken into account as far as the "greats". Of course hindsight is 20/20 and no one could have known that would happen but it does raise the question of just how many breedings or pedigrees one dog can or should influence. ETA: I'm not saying Zamp wasn't great, I helped raise a daughter from one of his last breedings, just that we have to be responsible with how popular a dog can be and how often they're bred.


Zamp was the greatest dog ever without dispute. No dispute. He is a Legend. Only other dogs in his class are Underdog, Superdog and Lassie.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Based on what? Your opinion? Have you met Zamp or any of his progeny?


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Liesje said:


> Based on what? Your opinion? Have you met Zamp or any of his progeny?


You really don't see what Harley is trying to do?


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## crackem (Mar 29, 2006)

I envision a pot filled with "stuff" and a large stir stick


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

crackem said:


> I envision a pot filled with "stuff" and a large stir stick


I think it is teflon


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

Harley120R said:


> Here's the problem with a working dog with me. Where will he work? Simple as that.
> 
> Besides that, I may hold the purse strings, but SHE takes care of the house. Get what I'm saying there? While talking her out of a Lab into a GSD she agreed after seeing a dog like Zamp. After seeing some of the working dogs, she said I could sleep outside with it.
> 
> Now I'm not one to put down any dog. I think some working dogs are fabulous looking. But since I don't have a job for a dog. Have never seen a live sheep myself that the dog could herd. I'm not joining the police department. Why would I take a chance on sleeping outside with the dog when I want a nice looking dog that lives in the house with me?


 
Here you go.......no job required.










You could probably fix up an electronic sound box of some kind with a remote. You could make it bark or growl, whine ect. 

Would only require a dusting every now and then.


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