# Puppy training -I'm done -hard time ahead



## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I am so done! My female puppy will be 5 mos old in two days. She's not dumb, smart and very willful. I told my breeder that when she was 12 weeks old. Now she is 5 months old. Breeder said "oh, you need to break them of the poop eating right away.. So thru 24 hours and poops 6 times, I got 90%, me out there at 2am,3:15am,3:45am,4:00am, now we've graduated to 4:45am. Me with my shovel and her waiting and going around corners so she can poop and eat it without my seeing....

She cries "wolf" 5 or 6 times per day, when she does not have to potty, just wants go out to eat any of her dog crap that I may have missed, or pinecones or branches or ..... She gets 2 three lb knuckle bones per week, plus numerous other chew toys, yoga pads, blankets and towels for sleeping. We play ball, tug and take walks every hour.

When I try to correct her, she snaps and barks and tries to make a game of it. I have "pinned" her many times and it's all a game. 

I have given her a stern "neck shake" until she cries and she makes a game of it and increases her bad behavior, whatever that may be at the time (eating her own poop , eating branches, whatever....challenging me... 

Apparently, I have not established dominance over this pup yet. She does see me as the leader with walks and food but in between, just when she's so good and we seem to be on "whisper command" then, she will just stop and pee on the carpet - staring at me the whole time.....


She is obviously running the show at this point... I don't want to break her spirit but I feel I need to exert exteme dominance over her very quickly or she will be ruined... Its gonna kill me to do it, but she's in for a very bad day tomorrow- followed by lots of love, but firm dominance .... HELP!!! If you have a different opinion. Training by private or class is not an option.

I just want to pick her up and throw her against a wall tomorrow, although that won't happen at all... but she will cry and that will **** near rip my heart out to break her spirit.... arrrgh..... your thoughts please!


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

You can try reading this out and see if it helps. It doesn't help the pup in any way to punish it or establish dominance over it. It just makes things worse in future.

https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/coprophagia-eating-feces


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Dominance over a dog or she will be ruined? What does dominance over her have to do anything, much less poop eating? You don't grab a pup by a neck, pin it, or anything like that or you get , well what you have. Look at the food you feed her, how often is she eatin? Instead of giving her the opportunity to eat it, let out her on a leash so she can't. Keep the yard clean.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi, thanks for your response, I already read that article last week and that made me back off on that one particular problem, I would not post if there weren't the other problems existing too..... I think so far that, something's going on that displays a dominance manifestation and all this junk ties together. Thank you so much for your post, you just threw me a lifeline!

To me, we have reached a line in the sand, she and I...she is now 19 weeks old and half my body weight, I am 60 years old and a bitch too....lol


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

llombardo said:


> dominance over a dog or she will be ruined? What does dominance over her have to do anything, much less poop eating? You don't grab a pup by a neck, pin it, or anything like that or you get , well what you have. Look at the food you feed her, how often is she eatin? Instead of giving her the opportunity to eat it, let out her on a leash so she can't. Keep the yard clean.




post edited by moderator


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

FYI, i see that you are a senior member.... She is eating a breeder and vet approved diet. If you want to argue about her diet, here's their names Sheri Maxwell 33 year breeder of GSD's, and Dr Justin Roscoe (30 year vet) His number is (Removed by Admin).


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> FYI, i see that you are a senior member.... She is eating a breeder and vet approved diet. If you want to argue about her diet, here's their names Sheri Maxwell 33 year breeder of GSD's, and Dr Justin Roscoe (30 year vet) His number is (removed by Admin).
> ..


I don't really care what you feed your dog or that your dog is eating poop. You came here and asked a question. Your question was answered, so come back here when your dog is 80 pounds and showing you who is dominant. It's really as simple as keeping your yard clean and keeping the dog from having the opportunity. ............... Have a good night


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I understand what you are saying, however, I have only been trying to establish "Good", "No" or "Leave it".

This is my 4th GSD. Challenges as they grow, of course!. But this pup is different from the other 3. That's why I posted.....

Considering the response so far, NEVERMIND.... I asked for help but only got criticism with no constructive feedback or understanding. This came from a senior member, so I'm gone from this site.

So we will work it out ourselves, she with her stubbornness and me with my PTSD will get along and make it work. BYE and thanks to the folks that helped me!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> I understand what you are saying, however, I have only been trying to establish "Good", "No" or "Leave it".
> 
> This is my 4th GSD. Challenges as they grow, of course!. But this pup is different from the other 3. That's why I posted.....
> 
> ...


You can't establish no, leave it, or good when the pup has the poop in her mouth. All of these things need to be taught first in training, then brought out into real life things. For example leave it...take a treat, cut it in half, as you drop one half say leave it, once the pup looks at you she gets the treat in your hand. She never gets the treat on the floor and you never repeat the command. If she goes for the treat on the floor be ready to put your foot over it and make a noise or click so she looks at you, it's important to give her the treat as soon as she looks at you. Once she learns the command then you can use it outside. Telling her to leave it if she doesn't know what it means isn't going to work. I have a poop eater. He will run clear across a half acre to poop so I can't get to him fast enough. Since it's me that has a problem with him eating poop, I just make sure the yard is clean. There are much worse things they can do.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

If you read my original post, you will see that I have been out in the yard to get 90% of her poops at all hours. Read my post! Apparently you ignored it. I have been up and tuned to her foot steps to go out with her from midnight to 4:30 am to shovel. 

(Removed by Admin)


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## warpwr (Jan 13, 2011)

Sometimes even negative attention is wanted.
Who knows what these shepherds are thinking but like you said, it appears she likes the game or interaction with you.
You could try putting her poop in her dog dish for a few days, maybe she would tire of it.
My brother once told me when his dog was eating cat crap, that he wished he could teach the cat to eat dog crap. 
Then he wouldn't have to feed them _or_ clean up after them.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

sorry you feel that way .

"So thru 24 hours and poops 6 times" so who cares who recommended the food - this alone tells you that it is not good quality . That she needs to recycle fecal matter another indicator , likely fats not being absorbed or metabolized. That is from some recent research that I have been reading . That she eats pine cones and branches and likely other things like earth and grasses shows she is craving something.

"
She is obviously running the show at this point... I don't want to break her spirit but I feel I need to exert exteme dominance over her very quickly or she will be ruined... Its gonna kill me to do it, but she's in for a very bad day tomorrow- followed by lots of love, but firm dominance "

she's going to be in for a very bad day tomorrow ?

already determined in advance and she hasn't even done anything yet . 

Yes , you did ask for advice. ................An adult dog might be much better for your situation.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

You just made me choke!Love your brothers philosophy, gigo. Thanks and bye!


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> If you read my original post, you will see that I have been out in the yard to get 90% of her poops at all hours. Read my post! Apparently you ignored it. I have been up and tuned to her foot steps to go out with her from midnight to 4:30 am to shovel. Apparently, you ignored that information.
> 
> I'm not sure what's wrong with you, but it's enough to quit me from this site and I will not be recommending it to fellow GSD owners as I have been. ,,,,,,,,,,,,


Yes I did read your post. That is where the leash comes in., the leash is your solution. You never mentioned any other methods other then dominant ones and you will not get many if any people that will agree with those methods. 90% isn't a 100% and these dogs are opportunist. They will figure it out. Your 60 yrs old and if you feel calling me an idiot twice isn't childish then I don't know what to tell you. Since I was raised to respect my elders I will not stoop to that level and I'll take it and let it go.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

warpwr said:


> Sometimes even negative attention is wanted.
> Who knows what these shepherds are thinking but like you said, it appears she likes the game or interaction with you.
> You could try putting her poop in her dog dish for a few days, maybe she would tire of it.
> My brother once told me when his dog was eating cat crap, that he wished he could teach the cat to eat dog crap.
> Then he wouldn't have to feed them _or_ clean up after them.


what ?

That is abusive . I hope children aren't raised this way.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Post edited by moderator* I was up that many times with her because I was potty training her. She did not poop 6 times a night. You are clutching at straws - she is 58 pounds 24 inches and trim. Everything you have blown your top about tonight is stupid stuff. YOU ARE THE SOLE REASON I AM LEAVING THIS SITE. Hostile, aggressive and stupid. You take 10% of a post and lash out ignoring the other 90%. TROLL


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Carmen, Thanks for your help. can't deal with a fellow senior member. I appreciate your knowledge and time you took to share and be constructive.. Bye...Suzy


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I will rehome my attitude and who I trust, and you are not included. Before you two decide to play gods, you need to look into yourselves....

Is there anything inside your being that makes you superior to others? Is there anything that you still have to learn? Do you still have the capacity to remain open so you can learn? Do you still listen when help is asked of you? Do you help?, or Hurt?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

You are obviously very frustrated and I'm sure we've all been there with our own dogs over the years. You might want to reread your posts before you insult any additional people because that is a good way to get kicked off of the board. It also prevents you from understanding the advice people are trying to give you. 

I have had two poop eaters. The problem went away with one when I changed her diet to grain free food and added probiotics and digestive enzymes. With the other one the only thing that helped was picking up the poop immediately. I did that for 14+ years. 

I thought my first gsd was very stubborn and finally realized that I was the one who was stubborn. I thought I had to dominate her and do all of that alpha roll stuff and then finally realized that approach to training was causing her to listen and respect me less and not more. Every time I yelled, she stopped listening. 

I quit the adversarial approach, got over my own anger over her acting like a young, energetic, untrained dog and learned that consistency, positive leadership and exercising her brain and body every day was the key to success.


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## Aveon (Oct 12, 2014)

Stonevintage, stop. Just stop. 

Carmspack and llombardo have helped a lot of people, some of which they have no idea they've helped such as myself, because I have lurked this forum and never posted....until now. 

They both had good advice for you, you asked- they gave. So you didnt like it? Well, go back and reread your first post. You may not of meant what you were saying, ie "I just want to pick her up and throw her against a wall", but seriously who talks/thinks that way?? And calling names... really?? 

Honestly, it is posts such as yours that make others not want to visit this forum any longer, as well. Please get some sleep and rethink your position here, or do as you said you would and really stop posting. Thank you ...


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## d4mmo (Mar 27, 2013)

Not sure if serious or not


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

BowWow - thank you!. I would like you to know that I recently got into a difference of opinion over dog food last week with these two particular posters. This has apparently flowed over into this topic. 

What I considered a minor issue as my vet does (poop eating) has become the focus of this topic with underlying issues on what I feed my puppy. Please refer to the thread "high quality dog food vs hype" for their responses. My vet and I discussed her poop eating, branch and pine cone chewing and he said that is normal and to give her a knuckle bone to chew and that would help. She gets 2 frozen ones per week.

That said, I see no reason for the hostile response from one member. While I do work inside the home and catch 90% of the poop eating, that is not enough from someone who condemns me for it but then says in the same post they have a poop eating dog too that they can do nothing about?

My primary question was about dominance. I see several people on this site that use shock collars and prong collars. But I am the one that is getting negative feedback for "pinning"? And of course the negative was assumed about my statements about tomorrow. I will ask her to do a command she knows and when she ignores I will need to enforce it immediately and give praise. This is not preplanning a problem that I am imagining will happen tomorrow. This is every day. I am not blaming the puppy before she does something wrong. 

Please take a look at my post and the responses. The advise that I need to give my puppy away because I cannot handle pretty much took the cake. Who feels qualified to give that kind of advise to someone they don't know? Based on information they apparently totally misunderstood?

For that reason it is my opinion that this is a dangerous site for people who have not previously owned GSD's and do not know to take the opinions here with a grain of salt. Many posters here give their positive support and suggestions but, there's a negative aspect here that the Moderator's don't seem to be monitoring. Thanks and bye.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Stone, like you, I too have a 5 month poop eater! It grossed me out, but I also pick up immediately. I live in the country, people around here do not scoop, so I also scoop our road..  Try no freedom in the yard, leash all the time during potty, praise, clap hands like bonkers when she does her business outside, treats; eventually there will only be praise. If she messes inside, clean area with vinegar, then either crate or tie her outside for up to 10 minutes, i.e., time out for the both of you. She will learn, she is just testing the boundaries. In 
the end it will all be worth it, you said you have had others, so you know! Now, as for the ranking of the members, I don't know how it is calculated, but I have only been here apx 3 months  Take the advice given, move on if you disagree, love your pup, I bet she is cute! Good luck, Deb


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Stonevintage said:


> BowWow - thank you!. I would like you to know that I recently got into a difference of opinion over dog food last week with these two particular posters. This has apparently flowed over into this topic.
> 
> What I considered a minor issue as my vet does (poop eating) has become the focus of this topic with underlying issues on what I feed my puppy. Please refer to the thread "high quality dog food vs hype" for their responses. My vet and I discussed her poop eating, branch and pine cone chewing and he said that is normal and to give her a knuckle bone to chew and that would help. She gets 2 frozen ones per week.
> 
> ...


Pinning and establishing dominance over the pup is not a way to teach dogs. Dogs look for leadership and direction above all else, and "pinning" does nothing to establish pack structure, if anything it shows your dog you have no structure and it will look for a chance to snap back.

The issue with prongs and e-collars is misuse. Most people think it is a tool to discipline a dog, you're not meant to discipline a dog for doing something wrong while on collar, it is to train the dog to not do those things to begin with. I personally use mine to teach my pup focusing. But there are people who don't know how to use it, or misuse them and the dogs just shut down completely.

Back to the poo issue, what I suggest is giving the dog more structure to poo time. Crate her, unless you're taking her out for walks or doing training and toilet train her such that she only poos on the same location so that there is no searching for missing poo. Problem might not go away but it will make things easier once the dog and you have some routine to this.

The other thing you can do is try a change of diet. Some food might not be fully digested by dogs so the poo might not be fully 100% waste which is why dogs sometimes eat it back. If the dog eats something more digestable and 100% of the poo is waste and not food, the eating might stop.


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## Yoshi (May 12, 2014)

Wow, in all of my short life I have never heard of a dog constantly eating it's own poo. Sure, I have heard and had dogs that eat horse, goose, cat, sheep, cow poo but not it's own. Maybe, you can try putting a bitter or spicy spray in her poo so when she tries to eat it she will get a nasty surprise! Also, if she is five months old would't she be able to hold her poo over night? Yoshi can, and he's not five months old yet. Astro could and so did Drogo for the short time I had him. What are you feeding her? That may be the reason why she can't hold it over night and likes to eat it. 

Hmm, in regards to this dominance thing what do you mean by pinning her? I admit I can be a tough owner, as I always keep a close scrutiny on my dogs and for most of Yoshi's time here he has been on the leash or crate. Only now he is starting to get some more freedom. Some people may not agree with how I do it but depending on the behaviour the corrections can be mild from "oi!" "no!" "ahhh!" to medium "stop that!" "get!" "time out" to tough "DON'T!" "Get outta there!" "HEY!" "WHAT ARE YOU DOIN??" or physical corrections such as a lead tug, grabbing his collar and making him sit until he calms down, tap/poke/nudge, even knocking off balance if the pup is trying to leap on you, as it snaps them out of it, or yes, a smack, but only when it's baaaaaaaaad. He actually knows the difference between all these words! But most of them time he is a good boy and learns quickly. What I find that works well is that if your pup did something you did not agree with, correct him, and when you can see he's learnt his lesson, call him back to you and give him a pat and be pleasant to him, I find this very effective. 

If you get frustrated with your pup secure her somewhere like in a crate or tie her up somewhere and _you_ have a timeout.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

OP, I do understand your frustration. My year old female is a very strong dog. But please keep in mind that all people have to go off of is what you write, which is a little disturbing (talking about how she's in for a bad day tomorrow, etc). I'm sure you're a very nice person who is just frustrated, but since none of us know you, we tend to take that stuff at face value. 

Moving on... it really stinks to hear you're part of (or the whole) problem. It's embarrassing. I know this because I've made many of the same mistakes you are. But, in order to move forward with your dog and create a better relationship where both of you are respected and happy, you need to hear it. You need to do a total 180 on your thinking about your puppy. The anger is not going to achieve anything. That anger comes through in the "dominance" stuff- the pinning, the rolling, the whatever. They don't understand that, especially at this age. All you are doing is creating a confused puppy, and a confused puppy is one that "acts out" (at least in our eyes, we view the behavior as intentionally BAD). You WILL create a monster with this stuff- you keep talking about how much she weighs, it doesn't mean anything right now.... think about when she's a year old, maturing, and feeling like she has to fight because that's all you've ever done with her. With puppies, the dominance stuff (which, by the way, has been essentially debunked and does more harm than good) has the opposite of the desired effect. Depending on her temperament, you may very well make either a fearful dog or an aggressive one. 

As for the poop eating, my dog was a poop-eater until 6 months. The ONLY thing, and I mean ONLY thing that worked was to keep her leashed outside at all times (which was a real bummer, because this was in the middle of winter). 

Firm leadership does not mean you have to physically dominate your dog. Dogs understand and respect calm and cool in leaders more than volatile and frustrated. Create boundaries. Work on obedience. Good manners come from a solid obedience foundation. Crate and leash. My female (who I will reiterate, is a VERY strong dog) was tethered and crated through that entire 5-6 month phase. It was a pain in the neck, but she would get pushy otherwise. Now she is a high-drive one year old who is still strong, but understands her place in the world and our household is more harmonious for that.

You also need to understand that shock and prong collars have absolutely nothing to do with "dominance" and are training tools... not a mindset. They are apples and oranges. These tools can be abused, of course, but when used correctly they have their place. The dominance thing with puppies is an entirely different issue (a mentality one, a socialization one, not a training one) and one that is really not accepted in most places. 

Remove the notion of "she's doing this to be bad" from your thinking. They really, for the most part, don't function that way. There is an aspect of "negative attention is better than no attention," like how under-stimulated dogs will find a way to entertain themselves, but they don't think "I know what will REALLY piss her off!" If you can remove that from your line of thinking, it will really help keep your resentment towards her in control. If there is something your puppy is not getting, don't instantly go to "she's being bad," instead think, "what's getting lost in communication?" Unfortunately, this stuff is almost always user error. Which is normal- we learn from these mistakes and fix them. The bottom line is that YOU are creating this problem- the sooner you can understand that (and understand that it is by no means an attack on you), the sooner you can get to fixing it.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

how about finding a good trainer/obedience class?


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"My vet and I discussed her poop eating, branch and pine cone chewing and he said that is normal and to give her a knuckle bone to chew and that would help"

so how's that working out ?

training isn't angry battery .

the greatest power is self-control , as seen in martial arts 

center yourself , have a clear plan , prevent a course of action (first) and redirect to a proper activity or response and praise . Draw attention to the good . 

Your very first post opened with distress over a dog eating its own waste . You were concerned and contacted the breeder about this problem when the dog was 12 weeks of age . Here you are many months later still the same problem and the dog knowing your routine reaction "goes around the corners" to avoid you seeing her , and avoid your reaction, as she continues to eat the poo. So it is the focus . 

There has to be a physical need . 

This is how great the need is , there is a desperation "I have given her a stern "neck shake" until she cries and she makes a game of it and increases her bad behavior, whatever that may be at the time (eating her own poop , eating branches, whatever....challenging me... "

Either the dog is deficient in protein , minerals or fats .
As I said there is a recent study which seems to think that eating own fecal waste is a chance to recycle fats that have not been broken down and metabolized .
The dog may need lipase, one of the digestive enzymes.

I still stand by my statement that the dog probably needs better food . Good clean protein that is bioavailable. 

"So thru 24 hours and poops 6 times" page 1 --- that is not normal . The food must have a lot of undigestible filler in it .
"I have been up and tuned to her foot steps to go out with her from midnight to 4:30 am to shovel. "
That is not normal. 

"Its gonna kill me to do it, but she's in for a very bad day tomorrow-" and on page 3 "This is not preplanning a problem that I am imagining will happen tomorrow. "

No . It is preplanning punitive action . Instead of sitting there trying to creatively think how the problem might be resolved you spend your energy in imagining mashing the dog into the wall , pinning her , all the the totally ineffective treatment which erodes the relationship.
The dog to you. You with the dog . 

"Training by private or class is not an option." then at least join a class , go to the PetSmart , anything . Be prepared for the instructor to teach YOU . 

"I need to exert exteme dominance over her very quickly or she will be ruined"

Does the dog stand a chance of not being ruined? Two years down the road , when she has had enough of your handling and she bites you , will she be one of those in a shelter where someone with best intentions adopts her and has multiple issues created by her past .


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## E.Hatch (Sep 24, 2013)

I'm not going to comment on the inappropriate name calling or dominance theory references.

All I will say is that my dog use to be a poop eater (his own). He's fed a well balanced raw diet. What stopped it was adding feedsentials. He now sniffs the poop and walks away. Prior to that (and actually still) I would clean up after him right away to lessen the chances he would snack on it. 

Good luck with your pup.

Visit carmspack site to purchase feedsentials if you're interested.


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## MamaofLEO (Aug 8, 2014)

JakodaCD OA said:


> how about finding a good trainer/obedience class?


That was my first thought. Many local shelters offer free/inexpendive training clssses. Well worth the $$ and vital to progress...worth the time and €€££$$ budgeting. Has you pup been diagnosed with Coprophagia (poop eating)? Ask your vet about Rx that may inhibit this behavior. That being said, your pup plays off you....if you are angry she can sense that and she will run with that (or eat poop, as the case may be). I don't mean this in a condescending way but you need to calm down (easier said thsn done, right). 

Here are some anti-poop eating alternatives to pinning, and are a bit more proactive (did a quick amazon search....[ame]http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=dog+poop+stop&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Adog+poop+stop[/ame])

Amazon.com : Solid Gold S.E.P. (Stop Eating Poop) 3.5oz : Pet Supplements And Vitamins : Pet Supplies

Amazon.com : NaturVet 130 Count Coprophagia Soft Chew Bottle for Dogs : Pet Digestive Remedies : Pet Supplies

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Your-Dog-Eating-Poop/dp/1479328464/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1415195593&sr=8-3&keywords=dog+poop+stop[/ame]

The peeps on the boards have helped me and my dogs tremendously....give them a chance...good luck


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

I also had a poop eater, until we changed his food, so I know it can be frustrating. But from my understanding, most poop eating comes from some dietary problem, which is why others are focusing on what you are feeding him. As someone mentioned in a recent post, there are products you can feed you dog that may help with this, so you might give those a try. And of course the other solution is to only take the dog out on leash so you can prevent him from doing this.

With respect to the deliberate peeing - we had a bout of that with my current puppy (at about 4-5 months if I recall). He would deliberately pee indoors, while staring at us, even though he had been out only 30 minutes earlier. It is very frustrating and hard not to get angry. I tried to keep my temper in check and look at it as a teachable moment. I would firmly tell him "no" and immediately take him out side. If he peed outside I'd give him lots of praise. The problem cleared up after a couple of weeks. I suspect it was more him growing out of it than my brilliant training techniques.

Finally, I think you need to start doing a lot of obedience with your dog, and I think you need to completely changing your training methods. In fact, I wouldn't even look at it as "obedience training" but rather as structured play time. Maybe try abandoning corrections all together for now and instead just treats for good behavior. If he acts up or starts jumping, your correction is to turn you back on him and ignore him. Obedience or engagement equals treats, praise, or a game of tug with his favorite toy. Disobedience means you ignore him. 

Since you seem to want to do this yourself, you might try getting a Michael Ellis video on dog training. I think it might help you a lot.


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## Pawsed (May 24, 2014)

I hope you don't leave this forum. There is a great deal of good information and help here and everyone is very willing to share. 

We all get frustrated and we can all understand that. What we don't understand is the way you are dealing with that frustration.

I am older than you so I understand where you are getting your methods and attitudes. However, those methods are out of date and there are much better ways of training a pup. I think you would have much better success if you could change the way you look at, and think about your dog.

You seem to have a very adversarial relationship with her and that can only mean trouble down the road. If you would be willing to try a different approach, I'm sure that you and your dog would be much happier. Ask yourself how you would react if you were "corrected" the way you are correcting your dog. I'm sure I would react by fighting back, the way your pup is doing. 

One thing that I don't understand is getting upset about her chewing sticks and pine cones. As long as she doesn't swallow them, what is the harm there? If you don't want her doing that, just take them away from her. 

It's often helpful to take a step back and try a different approach. There is plenty of information available to anyone online. And some of the best help is right here.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I won't get into the dominance baloney, but as far as poop eating...the original post said she pooped 6 times. That is a LOT of poop in 1 day. Have you addressed the possible diet or medical angle? If a dog is being over-fed, there will be more poop and possibly more tasty. If the dog has some digestion problem, that could also create a more tasty poop.

I had one GSD that was a poop eater. He only ate his own poop though, so I guess that was a good thing (if poop eating can be good...). He also pooped a lot as a young dog, 3-4 times a day. I always wondering if he wasn't digesting everything properly, but he grew normally and had no other health issues. He outgrew the poop eating when he was 7 months old, just quit one day and never tried it again.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

While it looks as though OP is not responding or has taking a break.. I still wanna give my input. All the advice here has been pretty accurate (A few not really, like putting her popp in her food dish.. yuck) 

Everything I know about poop eat points to a deficiency of some kind in your dog's diet. She isn't getting something out of what you are currently feeding her. What is the food you currently have her on?

Also, I saw that you are doing a lot with her physically, but what type of training are you doing with her? Unless you didn't mention it, it doesn't appear that you spend much time doing just basic obedience with her. Even if she "knows" things, she NEEDS that mental stimulation and the more you work with her on all the OB stuff, the more you will build your relationship and the more she will learn to listen to you and respect you. 

Someone did mention it, LoveEcho I believe, but you do need to recognize that you are contributing greatly to the behavior. No one wants to admit that they are the ones at fault, ever, but sometimes it's the best thing you can do. In your situation it will help you so much to understand where you are going wrong so you can fix it and move on. All these things are fixable.. you just have to approach them right. 

For the moment, until you figure the poop thing out, leash and don't give her access to it. I have to do this daily with the trash. If I forget to close a bathroom door or the kitchen door.. I will come home to trash everywhere.. my fault because I never taught him that wasn't ok and I give him access to it. Does that make sense??

Hope you can come back and let us help you figure this out.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Another possibility is she's made a negative association with poop in general. It sounds like she is being handled rather roughly by the OP so that stress could very well be a factor and is certainly not going to help the poop eating.

I have a young pit bull mix that is a very soft dog (temperament wise) from a sketchy background. She is not really a poop eater, but she went through this short poop eating phase that corresponded with some other behavioral issues. Admittedly, I can be a pretty blunt person when it comes to handling and interacting with my dogs. I'm not talking about physical pressure or corrections, just that I often find that softer or skittish dogs tend to avoid me. I made some deliberate changes in how I interacted with my dog to help address our relationship and the behavioral stuff, and the poop eating stopped. During the bad time, she had pooped in my basement several times for no good reason (she was not sick, she has ample opportunity to poop outside). She is a more intuitive dog as far as my mood, and I think she knew I was really disappointed and generalized that to mean poop = bad, so when she pooped OUTside, she would eat it to get rid of it. Whenever she is stressed it tends to manifest itself in eating habits, whether it is poop or chowing on grass, eating sticks, etc.


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## Ruby'sMom (May 25, 2014)

Ruby was also a poop eater. She is 9 months now, and she hasn't had a poop in about 2 months. I've read that they get this habit from the mom. She cleans the area by eating the pup's poop. At least that could be one reason. 

I know it's hard, but keep with the 'leave it' and treat with something really tasty. I used liver. Another thing to try is placing newspaper down right before she poops. Easy cleanup, and you can put another piece of paper over it right after she is done. 

I know you said that you couldn't do obedience classes or a trainer. I've done two with AKC. I'm not an expert, but I'd be willing to have puppy training play dates with you. I only live a half hour away. Maybe that would help. Just an idea.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

I'm at the end of the first page. I feel for the pup. The OP apparently is still on old school "training" and cruising for a fight which the human will loose and the dog will win but loose the war.

I don't care how many sheps the breeder has produced over how long or how many GSDs the OP has had -- this is just misdirected "training" and quite upsetting. I am an old fart myself and now have the most challenging pup of my life right now. I started out long ago with the jerk and praise training, then moved to motivational training which works 100 x better for my relationship with my dogs. The youngest is a far different ball game all around and I need far more patience. She still eats crap. I don't like it but it isn't worth a major fight or even a minor fight. It is likely that the less of a big deal I make of it, the less interest she will have in it....


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Everyone has been asking what the OP feeds. Here is what the OP feeds. 
OP started a thread recently saying that more expensive dog food is hype. 
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-puppy-stuff/498705-high-priced-dog-foods-all-hype.html
It got pretty heated, and that is why OP is now getting angry when people suggest the diet is the reason for the pooping 6 times a day and coprophagia.



Stonevintage said:


> My pup is 18 weeks old now. I've been feeding her a mix of Purina dog chow with about 25% Iams super puppy dry mixed in. This is what I can afford and what is readily available. I put a little 2% no flavor active culture yogurt on her morning meal (as recommended by my vet) and she gets about 1/2 lb cooked chicken per week.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

I wish folks would remember that other folks follow threads to actually learn something. There was some good advice provided.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Thank you Lillie - I deleted the Off Topic post that added nothing constructive to the discussion.


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## mssandslinger (Sep 21, 2010)

I also had a pup who used to eat poop but he had ghiardia which caused him to be skinny and constantly hungry so poop was what he started eating.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

wyoung2153 said:


> While it looks as though OP is not responding or has taking a break..
> Hope you can come back and let us help you figure this out.



Yeah....I don't blame the OP as some of the responses were harsh and very opinionated...in a degrading fashion....and yes I know some of the OP's responses needed some editing...but the fuse had already been lit.

When a thread starts with this amount of frustration...*"I am so done"*....perhaps it might behoove some people to proceed with a bit of understanding and empathy....otherwise some folks can be a bit condescending in here at times...myself included.

Oh...I am not aiming any of my comments at you.....but share in your hopes that the OP returns and some benefit can be provided.


SuperG


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

SuperG said:


> Yeah....I don't blame the OP as some of the responses were harsh and very opinionated...in a degrading fashion....and yes I know some of the OP's responses needed some editing...but the fuse had already been lit.
> 
> When a thread starts with this amount of frustration...*"I am so done"*....perhaps it might behoove some people to proceed with a bit of understanding and empathy....otherwise some folks can be a bit condescending in here at times...myself included.
> 
> ...


I agree whole heartedly with you. I think she was/is frustrated, rightly so.. regardless of who you are when something is giving you problem after problem and you don't know how to fix it, tension rises no matter how well the intent of the advice is given. People tend to get sensitive over that subject. People just need to put themselves in her shoes.. with something they have had difficulty with and remember how frustrating it was, regardless of if they could have done something a different way to fix the issue. 

...and stand by that some people need to just be more tactful when giving advice.. and truly try to just understand what the OP is doing/trying to do. Hopefully she's checking in on these and will pop in and get some good advice and help.


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## Nikitta (Nov 10, 2011)

And why was my post deleted?


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## scarfish (Apr 9, 2013)

lol, i always miss thegood stuff.

OP relax, puppies are a pain. quite a few times i wanted to put my head through a wall raising puppies. it always gets better.


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## Tattersail (Feb 5, 2014)

SuperG said:


> Yeah....I don't blame the OP as some of the responses were harsh and very opinionated...in a degrading fashion....and yes I know some of the OP's responses needed some editing...but the fuse had already been lit.
> 
> When a thread starts with this amount of frustration...*"I am so done"*....perhaps it might behoove some people to proceed with a bit of understanding and empathy....otherwise some folks can be a bit condescending in here at times...myself included.
> 
> ...


I have a hard time empathizing with someone who talks about beating a puppy into submission. 



> I don't want to break her spirit but I feel I need to exert exteme dominance over her very quickly or she will be ruined... Its gonna kill me to do it, but she's in for a very bad day tomorrow





> but she will cry and that will **** near rip my heart out to break her spirit...


I don't care what your dog has done (nevermind a puppy), you don't "exert extreme dominance" over them, short of them attacking someone... He's pre-planning extreme punishment which is so wrong.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Tattersail said:


> I have a hard time empathizing with someone who talks about beating a puppy into submission.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care what your dog has done (nevermind a puppy), you don't "exert extreme dominance" over them, short of them attacking someone... He's pre-planning extreme punishment which is so wrong.


I guess the way I took it, was that she's at her witts end and does not know what to do. There have been NUMEROUS times Titan frustrated me so much as a pup and it was everything in me to not smack him, roll him, or something of the sort. Obviously I didn't do that, but they can be very frustrating and I personally can empathize with her.. mostly because I don't see her beating her pup. I see her frustrated and asking for help so she doesn't do that.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> I guess the way I took it, was that she's at her witts end and does not know what to do. There have been NUMEROUS times Titan frustrated me so much as a pup and it was everything in me to not smack him, roll him, or something of the sort. Obviously I didn't do that, but they can be very frustrating and I personally can empathize with her.. mostly because I don't see her beating her pup. I see her frustrated and asking for help so she doesn't do that.


This!!


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## Tattersail (Feb 5, 2014)

wyoung2153 said:


> I guess the way I took it, was that she's at her witts end and does not know what to do. There have been NUMEROUS times Titan frustrated me so much as a pup and it was everything in me to not smack him, roll him, or something of the sort. Obviously I didn't do that, but they can be very frustrating and I personally can empathize with her.. mostly because I don't see her beating her pup. I see her frustrated and asking for help so she doesn't do that.


I've been at my wit's end and it has never occurred to me to beat my dog. If your last resort is beating them, you shouldn't own them.

A smack on the butt isn't abusive, doing it until they're crying out and you've broken their spirit is. A spanking won't damage your dog, what she's talking about doing will.

She hasn't taken any of the advice the people here have been giving. They told her it's diet related, she wanted to scream about how it isn't- she's not willing to see the solution carmspack and others have been offering, as her major complaint was the poop eating. Someone mentioned that she picks it up 90% of the time, and that 100% of the time is what is needed and she exploded. She's not hearing what she wants so instead has yelled, called everyone names and left.


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## wyoung2153 (Feb 28, 2010)

Tattersail said:


> I've been at my wit's end and it has never occurred to me to beat my dog. If your last resort is beating them, you shouldn't own them.
> 
> A smack on the butt isn't abusive, doing it until they're crying out and you've broken their spirit is. A spanking won't damage your dog, what she's talking about doing will.
> 
> She hasn't taken any of the advice the people here have been giving. They told her it's diet related, she wanted to scream about how it isn't- she's not willing to see the solution carmspack and others have been offering, as her major complaint was the poop eating. Someone mentioned that she picks it up 90% of the time, and that 100% of the time is what is needed and she exploded. She's not hearing what she wants so instead has yelled, called everyone names and left.


And this is helping her how? I get where you are coming from.. but criticizing her isn't doing anything except keeping her away so she definitely won't take anyone's advice.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Tattersail said:


> I have a hard time empathizing with someone who talks about beating a puppy into submission.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care what your dog has done (nevermind a puppy), you don't "exert extreme dominance" over them, short of them attacking someone... He's pre-planning extreme punishment which is so wrong.


So, how would you suggest to make an impression ( positive) on this type of person?....fighting fire with fire ?

Oh, are you making assumptions as well...."exerting extreme dominance"...only comes via physical punishment.....do I have that correct??

SuperG


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

German Shepherds will not listen if they sense that they are stronger minded than their owner, however they will also not respond well to harsh discipline. Owners need to have an air of natural authority to their demeanor. Do not treat this dog as if he were human. Learn canine instincts and treat the dog accordingly.

I just read this at some dog breed web site.....it's a bit convoluted but interesting.


SuperG


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Stonevintage said:


> BowWow - thank you!. I would like you to know that I recently got into a difference of opinion over dog food last week with these two particular posters. This has apparently flowed over into this topic.
> 
> 
> 
> What I considered a minor issue as my vet does (poop eating) has become the focus of this topic with underlying issues on what I feed my puppy. Please refer to the thread "high quality dog food vs hype" for their responses.




I did read that thread again, and unless their posts were deleted, I saw no responses from either of them in that thread. Were they?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

SuperG said:


> So, how would you suggest to make an impression ( positive) on this type of person?....fighting fire with fire ?
> 
> Oh, are you making assumptions as well...."exerting extreme dominance"...only comes via physical punishment.....do I have that correct??
> 
> SuperG


The OP came out swinging. Frustration and outright anger is a fine line. If she reacts to the pup like she did on here, then that is probably not good for the pup. There is no getting through to someone who doesn't want to hear anything. Everyone has suggested diet, not using dominance, leashing the pup, and cleanining up the poop. When asked what the diet is , she threw out there immediately that it was breeder and vet approved and gave a phone number to prove it. No one asked her to prove it,. The OP stated that she has used physical dominance with the dog and that she is willing to take it up a notch. There is no assuming anything, she stated clearly what she has done.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> I did read that thread again, and unless their posts were deleted, I saw no responses from either of them in that thread. Were they?


If she was referring to carm or I, neither of us posted on that thread, but I think the OP might have meant the responses from the breeder and vet maybe???


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

llombardo said:


> The OP came out swinging. Frustration and outright anger is a fine line. If she reacts to the pup like she did on here, then that is probably not good for the pup. There is no getting through to someone who doesn't want to hear anything. Everyone has suggested diet, not using dominance, leashing the pup, and cleanining up the poop. When asked what the diet is , she threw out there immediately that it was breeder and vet approved and gave a phone number to prove it. No one asked her to prove it,. The OP stated that she has used physical dominance with the dog and that she is willing to take it up a notch. There is no assuming anything, she stated clearly what she has done.


I've been reading this thread since it started last night. There was absolutely no reason for the OP to turn on llombardo when she posted a reply, giving her good advice. I started to jump in myself, but I was so flabbergasted that I didn't even know where to begin. LoveEcho had a great post in this thread, basically saying what I wanted to say.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

llombardo said:


> If she was referring to carm or I, neither of us posted on that thread, but I think the OP might have meant the responses from the breeder and vet maybe???



Maybe I was wrong, but I assumed she was referring to you two. That's why I went to read it. Cause I can understand getting defensive if you guys had gotten on her in another thread. 

It's a mute point now, if the OP does not come back. But there is a lot if good advice in this thread. So hopefully someone else can learn from it.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Maybe I was wrong, but I assumed she was referring to you two. That's why I went to read it. Cause I can understand getting defensive if you guys had gotten on her in another thread.
> 
> It's a mute point now, if the OP does not come back. But there is a lot if good advice in this thread. So hopefully someone else can learn from it.


With the anger she had I went back to that thread twice because I wasn't sure if I posted something or not. 3am and I'm reading pages that I had nothing to do with. I was thinking this woman had got to have us confused with someone else. After re-reading what she wrote I still wasn't sure but I know if wasn't us.


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## JanaeUlva (Feb 5, 2011)

Beyond the issue about the quality of the dog food and the frequent bowel movements. You could try and distract the pup, giving you time to pick up the poop before the pup can eat it. I carry a handful of dog food in my pocket. Wait until pup poops, immediately call the pup away from the poop and throw a handful of kibble on the ground (away from the poop). Then you can pick up the poop while the pup is unaware and happy searching for kibble, plus the pup is reinforced to poop outside. 

IMHO, I think that sometimes we can create a puppy's fixation on its poop by being right there to pick it up and they are watching our constant interaction with their poop. That part is just my thought so take it with a grain of salt. But the kibble redirection works really well and you only need to do it until you have broken the cycle of behavior that is poop eating


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> It's a mute point now, if the OP does not come back. But there is a lot if good advice in this thread. So hopefully someone else can learn from it.


I have been reading this post since early this morning. One thing I learned .. I am not the only one whose dog eats his own poop! It really grossed me out, I scoop as fast as I can, always have bags in pockets ALWAYS!! As for the food lacking whatever, Fritz is on a mixture of Fromms Gold LBP, Blue Wilderness LBP and Vet Healthy Advantage LBP.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

gsdsar said:


> Maybe I was wrong, but I assumed she was referring to you two. That's why I went to read it. Cause I can understand getting defensive if you guys had gotten on her in another thread.
> 
> It's a mute point now, if the OP does not come back. But there is a lot if good advice in this thread. So hopefully someone else can learn from it.


nope, not me , still haven't read that thread .


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Both threads the OP has started have been confrontational and give the overall impression he/she doesn't agree with many suggestions or advice given.

This particular thread I found not only confrontational but also rude.
People have taken time to read and post in attempt to help yet they are knocked down for their efforts. 

I'm sorry, but if the OP is at a point that they publicly state on a GSD forum (filled with people who are passionate about the breed AND their own dogs) that they want to throw their puppy against a wall, I'm surprised everyone has been so helpful and patient.

Rehome this puppy before it is ruined. It sounds to me like it is not a good match...it does happen! I am worried about this puppies safety. 

The OP needs a dog that is less challenging of which many GSD'S are not IMO.

For what it's worth, my last GSD ate his poop as a puppy. Leash and bag to pick up makes it very easy to control. He had EPI and continued to attempt until we had his food and digestion under control.

6 poops/pees in the middle of the night is not normal. My dog never woke me to go potty in the middle of the night, although once for many would not surprise me when young but not 6 times!! Something is amiss here.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Good luck tomorrow little baby doggie. Hopefully you are spared the animosity and find a home back with the breeder or someone who understands your specific needs.


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## jafo220 (Mar 16, 2013)

OK. I'll throw in here. 

I love my vet. Been going to them for over 13 yrs. Great people. Every time I take Cruz in, they keep trying to push Diamond dog food. Before that, it was Science Diet. You know why? It's all about the deals that are worked out between the vet and dog food companies. It's the same with breeders. Cruz's breeder uses and recommends Science Diet. Now, do I feed those to my dog? I did at one time until I did some research on my own and found they were not the best food for my dog. I also noticed the differences between the different dog foods and how my dog feels, looks, acts and even poo's. He has eaten, Science Diet, Diamond, Blue Buffalo and currently on Taste of The Wild. TOTW (taste of the wild) is heads and shoulders above all those others in quality. He poo's great, and maybe twice a day at most. The others? Loose to soft stools numerous times in a day. This can lead into other problems. He is now doing great on Taste of the Wild. Point is, just because the breeder or vet recommends a certain food, doesn't mean it's the best choice for your dog.

As far as eating poo. This is a training issue. It's not to late. Some dogs naturally go after it more than others. Don't know why, they just do. My dog went after it when he was a little land shark. It finally came to a head one morning. He was quick. He poo'd, turn on a dime and start eating before I could react. The last time this happened, I grabbed him up and I got a big puppy poo kiss right on the lips! You talk about nasty! I'm not squeamish by a long shot, but that made me gag! I remedied this by taking him out on a leash and letting him poo then gently walking him away from it when done. When he tried to turn to even look at it, I commanded "no" or "off" in a stern voice and gently walked him away. Always take him to the same area, gently walk him away and do this repetitively. I would do this until they show no interest in eating the poo. Keep the poo picked up. It's about consistency and repetition. It won't happen over night. It has to be a daily thing.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

llombardo said:


> The OP came out swinging. Frustration and outright anger is a fine line. If she reacts to the pup like she did on here, then that is probably not good for the pup. There is no getting through to someone who doesn't want to hear anything. Everyone has suggested diet, not using dominance, leashing the pup, and cleanining up the poop. When asked what the diet is , she threw out there immediately that it was breeder and vet approved and gave a phone number to prove it. No one asked her to prove it,. The OP stated that she has used physical dominance with the dog and that she is willing to take it up a notch. There is no assuming anything, she stated clearly what she has done.


I understand all which you have stated....and I still stand on my original premise....let me voice it a different, more blunt way....the OP is gone....not open to suggestion and potential remedy...with this in mind, has the greater good been served? Believe me, I understand that at times we can be our own worst enemies, especially when we truly feel we are in the right...but yet our prime objective became neglected due to our own "drive". Our concern, I assume... is a dog which finds itself in the best of hands and of course a human in harmony with the dog....

My opinion is not directed at you as I have found your posts to be well thought out and your concerns focused in the proper direction.

To make positive change in what so many in here have such passion for...it might make sense at times, for some folks to take a step aside and remind themselves of what matters most....


SuperG


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

I do hope for the sake of the pup, OP does make some changes in the way the pup is handled, else the problems will come in adulthood.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

SuperG said:


> the OP is gone....not open to suggestion and potential remedy...


I totally get what your saying but in this case the OP has not demonstrated an interest in many of the suggestions made. Instead he/she took much of it as an insult and became defensive. This was shown in both this thread and the other regarding food. 

People here spend much time reading and formulating a response in hopes of helping, not to be rediculed and yelled at.

I'm not one to enjoy the puppy stage, these GSD'S are friggin adorable until you fall for it and attempt to pet or cuddle....then those cute little razor teeth sink into you. I very much look forward to the grown up version but I've NEVER been so angry or frustrated to the point of wanting or thinking to throw puppy against a wall!

Dogs are supposed to enhance your life, not drive to to the point of abuse. I do believe some dogs are not meant for some people. Is it that hard for a person to admit they don't like their puppy, have not bonded and have had thoughts of injuring it.....therefore I should find a loving home for this dog?


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Saphire said:


> but I've NEVER been so angry or frustrated to the point of wanting or thinking to throw puppy against a wall!
> 
> Dogs are supposed to enhance your life, not drive to to the point of abuse. I do believe some dogs are not meant for some people. Is it that hard for a person to admit they don't like their puppy, have not bonded and have had thoughts of injuring it.....therefore I should find a loving home for this dog?


Second this. What I read/interpret from the OP.

Hope the pup benefits, even if the OP takes some of the advice into consideration and learned...maybe they are too embarrassed to come back on. may never come back...or may come back humbled...even if none of the above, then at least someone will benefit from advice given


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sometimes it is helpful to understand poop eating. 

Poop eating can be diet related. If a dog is missing something in their diet, or if the food is not being digested properly they may eat their poop. So, it is good to get that checked out if it continues to be a problem. The food that the breeder and vet suggested, may just not be right for your pup. This is possible. Not sure if I would think probable at this point.

Poop-eating is generally a learned behavior. The dam eats all of her puppies' poop to keep the litter clean from day one. She has to stimulate them with her tongue to get them to potty, and then she ingests it all. This probably served to keep the puppies clean and reduce the likelihood of predators finding the den in the wild. 

As puppies grow and start eating solid food, dams will tend to slack off the poop cleaning. And the puppies will have learned it from her, and they will eat each other's poop, and their own, on occasion. This is where the breeder really needs to be somewhat on their toes, and keep after the poop, especially if she sees them eating it. She needs to get in there and keep it as clean as possible. But, breeders can't be with them 24/7. So sometimes a poop-eating pup does get to its owner. 

The thing to do, is to take the puppy out on lead, praise it for pooping outside, and keep it from getting at the poop from its mouth. After taking the puppy back in, clean up the poop, and keep the yard clean of poop. Unless the dog is seriously lacking in some nutrient, the habit can be broken.


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

selzer said:


> After taking the puppy back in, clean up the poop, and keep the yard clean of poop. Unless the dog is seriously lacking in some nutrient, the habit can be broken.


Morning, the OP was doing this, she was doing her best. Unfortunately, she was also at her wits end, she was asking for help, she was losing it.. Unfortunately, she put it in writing, hit the send button, then most likely regretted it, who knows what was truly going through her head. We have all been there, at our wits ends. Tell me, has anyone out there said/written something they had not to? Have you ever did something or wanted to do something you shouldn't? I feel sorry for her, more so for the pup, I wish she would come back so we know everything is okay. All she really wanted was to vent (which she did horribly wrong) and she needed compassion from us.. Deb


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Debanneball said:


> Morning, the OP was doing this, she was doing her best. Unfortunately, she was also at her wits end, she was asking for help, she was losing it.. Unfortunately, she put it in writing, hit the send button, then most likely regretted it, who knows what was truly going through her head. We have all been there, at our wits ends. Tell me, has anyone out there said/written something they had not to? Have you ever did something or wanted to do something you shouldn't? I feel sorry for her, more so for the pup, I wish she would come back so we know everything is okay. All she really wanted was to vent (which she did horribly wrong) and she needed compassion from us.. Deb


You know what she could have done? She could have taken her hostile responses and thought about what she wrote SEVERAL times, but no she chose to get more hostile as she went on. Sure I have wrote stuff and it came out wrong but I have never physically shook a puppy until it cried. Robyn put me through a lot as a pup. I had no sleep and she was high energy. I did not once ever think about hurting her-NEVER. I left the room, threw a tantrum, cried and then I looked at myself. Once I did that, it was smooth sailing. I am normally a compassionate person and always willing to help, which I did in this case too. I took the name calling, but I am still feeling very unsettled about this pup. Such an angry person does not need to have a high energy dog that is testing every boundary known to man. I have no compassion for this person, for the pup I do.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

Food for thought.....“Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive.” Dalai Lama XIV


SuperG


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## shantinath1000 (Mar 18, 2014)

Myah went through a poo eating phase- lead her away and pick up right a way made a difference. She no longer has any desire to it anymore. My understanding of the poo eating in a bit different than some of what I am hearing here. I am hearing that there is a deficiency in the diet that causes this- my understanding is that rather than a diet deficiency it is that the food is not being fully processed when first eaten. This results in the presence of things such as undigested proteins and fats in the stool. It is these proteins and fats that the animal is going after. When diet is changed to allow for better absorption of nutrients the attraction to the poo is lesser. There is a behavioral component as well. When the behavior is reinforced through getting those nutrients the animal will continue the behavior. In animals such as rabbits, difficulty in digesting plant matter has been addressed this way.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

I have heard the same....the dog can smell the ingredients...rather than the "stew".

SuperG


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## John C. (Mar 6, 2013)

I have to agree with others that the OP was awfully defensive and thin skinned. A lot of people post on this board because they are having some issue or problem with their dog and what they're trying hasn't been working. That seemed to be the case with this OP. Her dog was eating poo, she didn't know why, and she wasn't able to stop it. Her dog was also out of control and not responding to her efforts to train it.

That being the case, the OP really shouldn't be insulted when people suggest that she not continue to do what, by her own admission, isn't working and try something different. 

I suspect that anyone who has more than a few posts under their belt has both asked for help from others and tried to offer advice to others. We all have different levels of skill, knowledge and experience, and some posters advice is going to be better than others. But most of us are genuinely trying to help. If you don't think someone's suggestions are particularly insightful, you are free to ignore them. But if 10 people tell you pretty much the same thing, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to insult everyone who's trying to help you and go away in a huff.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

John C. said:


> But if 10 people tell you pretty much the same thing, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to insult everyone who's trying to help you and go away in a huff.


The hardest thing any of us do is look ourselves in the mirror and assess our own failings of those we love. Character is forged from learning from those failings and doing better. Any pup deserves better than to be hurt until it cries out, and having to confront that violent impulse in herself was surely a hard thing to do. The easier path was to lash out.

Rehoming was the best advice given.

Perhaps someone here actually knows the breeder (whose name was posted) and can provide the breeder with a link to this thread. Maybe the breeder can reach out to provide some support or offer to rehome the pup. The OP said her name was Suzy, so if she wasn't a troll, the breeder should be able to figure out who she is in RL.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

My concern is with the pup. I hope s/he has rehomed it by now. (This is a dog board.) Anyone coming on with such anger with a pup over nothing more serious than eating feces has issues that this internet board would be hard pressed to solve. 

My concern remains with the pup and I don't think refraining from calling out the OP is going to help the pup at all. It's also not going to help the OP.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

SuperG said:


> Food for thought.....“Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive.” Dalai Lama XIV
> 
> 
> SuperG


 If you left YOUR dog to be taken care of for the weekend and YOUR dog got this treatment all that compassion would be so out the window --


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Debanneball said:


> Morning, the OP was doing this, she was doing her best. Unfortunately, she was also at her wits end, she was asking for help, she was losing it.. Unfortunately, she put it in writing, hit the send button, then most likely regretted it, who knows what was truly going through her head. We have all been there, at our wits ends. Tell me, has anyone out there said/written something they had not to? Have you ever did something or wanted to do something you shouldn't? I feel sorry for her, more so for the pup, I wish she would come back so we know everything is okay. All she really wanted was to vent (which she did horribly wrong) and she needed compassion from us.. Deb


If you read my post again, you will see that I was neither judgmental or attacking and I am not sure why you singled me out. I was trying to provide a little background/understanding behind poop-eating, and possible causes of it, as well as suggesting that the habit can be broken.


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## SuperG (May 11, 2013)

carmspack said:


> If you left YOUR dog to be taken care of for the weekend and YOUR dog got this treatment all that compassion would be so out the window --


I appreciate your concerns....and if I actually did leave my dog with an individual which administered such treatment....I would be ashamed of myself more than my disgust for the other....


SuperG


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Hi. I am the original poster of this thread. The amazing amount of responses I got PM has compelled me to respond.

There seems to be some confusion as to who made comments prior to this topic that I responded to and to animosity carried over from the previous post. "Look at the food you feed her, how often is she eatin?/ and another; "It makes no difference to me should you choose to feed your pup crappy food" 

When these two jumped into the conversation, I lost it, I'm so sorry.
This was in a prior post concerning dog food. 

The PM's I received were very welcome and very helpful. They wish to remain anonymous for obvious reasons. They heard my cry for help, and responded. I am on a new track and already seeing positive results!

Treat training, with hopes that this will "habit form" and smooth the progression to obeying commands without treats down the road.

I apologize to all, I couldn't even hurt a fly - (I just try to shoosh them out the door). All is good here, I think she is at the max on her teething right now, that causes stress too. You don't know me so, sorry for my stupid comments - I was thinking like talking to a best friend and voiced the unthinkable ' which I would never do"....just to try to distress to friends. That was wrong, you don't know me and the whole thing just got crazy.

I still have to say bye to this site, there will always be differences of opinion and I am PTSD and cannot any longer wear "hard armor". it's all good. I'm just not so good at communication


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> Hi. I am the original poster of this thread. The amazing amount of responses I got PM has compelled me to respond.
> 
> There seems to be some confusion as to who made comments prior to this topic that I responded to and to animosity carried over from the previous post. "Look at the food you feed her, how often is she eatin?/ and another; "It makes no difference to me should you choose to feed your pup crappy food"
> 
> ...


I had no idea that there was a prior thread and I did not participate in that. It doesn't matter what you feed the dog as long as it works for the dog. Not everyone can afford $50 for a bag of food and that same food might cause issues. I'm happy to hear that you are working on the training and all is well. It's ok to have a difference in opinion, those differences can help you form your own. Don't let stuff fester. If your pup is driving you nuts(I know mine did) take a deep breath, step away and evaluate it. They eventually become perfect dogs and if you get stuck you can always ask and get a million different answers to sort through. So what I'm saying is stick around, it will help you out.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

*I've had enough - helpful response*



llombardo said:


> I don't really care what you feed your dog or that your dog is eating poop. You came here and asked a question. Your question was answered, so come back here when your dog is 80 pounds and showing you who is dominant. It's really as simple as keeping your yard clean and keeping the dog from having the opportunity. So keep playing your games with your dog and here is a number you can use when she attacks you..911. Have a good night


This is one of the reasons I won't be back....


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## Galathiel (Nov 30, 2012)

You do realize that the post you quoted was in response to a comment that you made that you later said you would have made to a friend in a vent and shouldn't have made to strangers...right?


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Galathiel said:


> You do realize that the post you quoted was in response to a comment that you made that you later said you would have made to a friend in a vent and shouldn't have made to strangers...right?


I tried to be nice. I don't feel even a little bit guilty for that post. It's crazy. I'm not apologizing for what I wrote. If the OP wants to leave then at this point see ya. I thought for sure we could move on, but I guess not.


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## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

There is a TON of good info in this thread. Is there a way to do heavy editing and get rid of the crap, retitle it 'Poop Eaters Anonymous' or something - lock it and save it?

As long as there are pups this is an issue that will continue to pop up - hopefully not expressed to this extreme, but we all know the frustration.


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I'm sorry you're having such difficulty, especially with such an icky bad habit. My 6mos old just recently pooped out a sock!!! WHAT?? Where and when she got it(my foster daughter little sock) I don't know but she is a dominant pup and chews everything... I am also sorry you have had such harsh and rude remarks by others... Please don't leave! 

I do use a shock collar on her at times. Now this particular collar has ultrasonic sound, vibration and of course shock. All the deterrents can be set from 1 to 10,used individually or combined with whatever setting you want. I would suggest using one on her, trying the sound and vibrate first, and the shock if necessary. You can be a distance away from her and either use verbal, 'NO', or just reprimand her with the collar when she thinks she is alone and eating pool. The collar gave me a lot of respect from a distance because I could correct behavior at a distance when it happened. I rarely need to use it, and she isn't scared of it (actually comes and sits by me if I am moving it or turning it in and patiently waits if I'm putting it on her) and I never need to do anything more than is necessary because of the 3 types of correction available as well as the levels. 

This is just an idea and I hope it helps if you use it  Good luck with her
(typed of of my phone so please forgive typos etc) 

God bless, Misty


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

Please don't put an e collar on your 6 month old puppy. Especially without fully understanding how to use it properly. There are many risks to putting an e collar on and zapping for bad behaviour, thats not how they are intended to be used. The problems you can cause can make your current problems look like fun.


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## GatorBytes (Jul 16, 2012)

Saphire said:


> Please don't put an e collar on your 6 month old puppy. Especially without fully understanding how to use it properly. There are many risks to putting an e collar on and zapping for bad behaviour, thats not how they are intended to be used. The problems you can cause can make your current problems look like fun.


 I Concur.

Really think the treat training route is the way to go with this pooch


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

I am extremely competent and experienced with using an 'e-collar' and as was stated above, usually only need the ultrasonic or by the vibrate. My pup is happy, definitely not abused, learning fast and doing well âº. I understand that someone could easily abuse such a tool, but I do not and have had dogs all my life, do SaR, therapy dog work, and train my dogs for many other things. But I do know that you don't know me or how I work with my dogs, so I will smile and thank you for your concern for my dog. (seriously not being sarcastic) 

God bless, Misty


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## Hineni7 (Nov 8, 2014)

Darnit, ignore the weird typos, using my phone...


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

*I'm Baaack!*

If you regular posters don't remember who I am... I vented frustration, got jumped on and lashed out. Sorry

I'm back because this site is an invaluable source of information and because Summer and I need your advise. It was said that I was going to harm my puppy as the threads started running. My OP said "I feel like picking her up and throwing her against a wall, but that would never happen". The last part of my sentence got left off by others as the blog ran on. Soon, posters were making efforts to contact my breeder to tell her to take my pup away from me, that I was going to harm her....

There's too many great folks on here and so many helpful supportive PM's I don't want to stay away. Thank You!

Here's what's happened in the last 30 days. That night, I let Summer into my bedroom to sleep for the first time at night (she had been blocked off and restricted to the kitchen and laundry room at night). No accidents in a week, so I felt she was ready for the next step. 

EVERYTHING CHANGED! She has been a dream pup for the last month. It's almost as though she was way over ready for the training and freedom, ready to get totally integrated and involved, or needed the bonding of sleeping in the bedroom with me (hard to explain). She is amazing with her attention and training, like a different pup! 6 months old this week.

As for the poop eating - I wait at the door with a package of Ritz Crackers (the paper crackles and makes a noise she can her). She comes running to get her 1/2 Ritz cracker and leaves her poop behind.... ah, life is good!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Great to hear from you!!! So happy that things are getting better!!! It does take time!!!


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thank You! We're doing pretty awesome right now. Major teething done too (thanks to a few quarter cut knuckle bones).


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds like you are on the right track. With patience and persistence, in another 9 years....


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Ha! In another 9 years, we'll all be 9 years older and still trying to figure stuff out!


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## Debanneball (Aug 28, 2014)

Welcome back Stone! . So glad all has worked out for you and Summer! . My boy is almost 6 months, and the nipping is 99.9% gone, teething done, new teeth growing. Still loves his ice, and oh, the snow, he eats it as he goes outside... i wish you a very happy holiday season with Summer!


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Stonevantage, I just had to smile when I read about your cracker tip. I can just imagine a bouncy leggy pup romping back for a crumbly Ritz.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

Stonevintage said:


> If you regular posters don't remember who I am... I vented frustration, got jumped on and lashed out. Sorry
> 
> I'm back because this site is an invaluable source of information and because Summer and I need your advise. It was said that I was going to harm my puppy as the threads started running. My OP said "I feel like picking her up and throwing her against a wall, but that would never happen". The last part of my sentence got left off by others as the blog ran on. Soon, posters were making efforts to contact my breeder to tell her to take my pup away from me, that I was going to harm her....
> 
> ...


This is a wonderful update:thumbup:


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## nezzz (Jan 20, 2013)

Good job, sounds like you and your puppy have overcome adversity


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

Glad things are going better. Once you figure out what works and what doesn't, it's all easy street.


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## middleofnowhere (Dec 20, 2000)

They do seem to push it to the limit and then come around. Almost like it's some sort of contest "how crazy can I make the human in my life?"


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

middleofnowhere said:


> They do seem to push it to the limit and then come around. Almost like it's some sort of contest "how crazy can I make the human in my life?"


I don't know if it was Charles Dickens or Mark Twain that said something to the effect that a happy childhood is hardly worth the bother. We grow from adversity. Yes we can have an awesome puppy in every way, that is totally easy, but when that pup is 2 or 3, what have we learned. If the next one is crazy, we are just sour because we were spoiled with the easy one. 

It is the tough ones that we really appreciate when we get them from here to there. That is all bonding. And at the end we have a super relationship. The easy pup, well, we can have a good time with that pup too. But it seems like its the tough ones, the ones we go through the fiery pit with, that we seem to get so super attached to. And it is these pups that make the next pups easy peasy, because we grow too.


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## Jambo (Apr 24, 2014)

I think Stone, you need to IMMEDIATELY start training the "Leave it" command. That whole crumpled ritz cracker seems to be a good start. Here is a great video of training the command:

Dog Training Demo | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

You want to do this consistently for a while. And for the time being you want to only say the command when you are rewarding with treats, otherwise you may poison the cue for the pup and it will become meaningless.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

Thanks for your suggestion. "Leave it" was the first command she learned. It works with most everything except the poop so far. Like many have said, no one really knows why they do it. I will continue to tell her to leave it, but I think she's going to be getting half a Ritz for a while... 

It almost looks like an OCD, the compulsion is that strong.I had a GSD with stereotypical tail chasing that my vet said was genetic. Her drive seems similar in that they hardly seem to know where they are when they are "in" the behavior.


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## nivonice (Dec 3, 2014)

I know that vets have some sort of powder that you add to her food that will make them stop eating their poop.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

There are powders that work or don't work depending on who you talk to. And they say pinapple digests into something distasteful to dogs. And some people run around and put hot sauce on the poop, but the best bet is to pick up the poop immediately rather than putting chemicals through the dog's body. Eliminate the ability for the dog to get at the poop and then pick it up immediately. Keeps the yard clean as a bonus. At the same time, keep working on LEAVE IT! and nothing wrong with providing that ritz cracker as a reward for pottying in the proper location.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I one had a poop eater (his own only). I had him on leash at all times for his potty trips. Once he pooped I just turned him around without saying anything in order not to make a big deal out of it, brought him inside and after a while I went outside without him and picked up the poop so he would not see me do it. I think that if you pick up the poop from a poop eater you may actually emphasize the issue. He outgrew it before he was a year old.


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## pyratemom (Jan 10, 2011)

I still go outside with Raina whenever she goes out. I pick up the poop as soon as it happens and also scan the yard for cat poop which seems to be a big draw as well as iguana poop. My vet suggested pineapple, hot sauce, putting supplements in her food. I did not want to do that and she does not like pineapple so will not put that in her food. The best thing is to scoop as soon as poop happens. She does "leave it" very well giving me the chance to scoop but will go back and check to see if I did pick it up. LOL!


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## Mishka&Milo (Jan 4, 2014)

Stonevintage said:


> Thanks for your suggestion. "Leave it" was the first command she learned. It works with most everything except the poop so far. Like many have said, no one really knows why they do it. I will continue to tell her to leave it, but I think she's going to be getting half a Ritz for a while...
> 
> 
> 
> It almost looks like an OCD, the compulsion is that strong.I had a GSD with stereotypical tail chasing that my vet said was genetic. Her drive seems similar in that they hardly seem to know where they are when they are "in" the behavior.



My girl was a poop eater.... Not her own, but cat poop.... I taught the leave it command, and the darnedest thing was that she would even leave dropped pieces of chicken if I asked. I worked until I had about a 50% accuracy rate, and was near insanity. When she was of age and weight for an e-collar, I used that.... Taught her to come when she felt the vibrate, and then i got her to return a few times that way.... After a while I would issue the leave it command, if she did not I would issue a small correction.... Seems as if the poo was not worth it. I hate the cats who poop in my lawn.


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