# West German Working - critique



## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Looking for input from others that know West German Working lines and what you might expect from this pup. 

Conner vom Littlehaus


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Probably a very balanced dog...I love the pedigree, a move in right direction, IMO.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Looks like a classic "coattail" pedigree. Breeding two dogs based off of the accomplishments of the dogs behind them. I don't have much experience in the way of knowing the dogs in there, but the fact that neither the dam or sire have any titles worth noting, and the sire has "fair" hips its kind of a questionable breeding IMO.

If the breeder is going to use an untitled dog in the pairing, I'd at least like the other dog to have titles.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I would appreciate Cliffson's insights on what is good for the purposes of being instructive or even the OP who picked this out. 

Sincerely. 

I know enough about pedigrees to know that I don't know that much. . Sure I know the titles and all that and which dogs are "famous" in working circles but that is a dangerous level of knowlege.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Looks like a classic "coattail" pedigree. Breeding two dogs based off of the accomplishments of the dogs behind them. I don't have much experience in the way of knowing the dogs in there, but the fact that neither the dam or sire have any titles worth noting, and the sire has "fair" hips its kind of a questionable breeding IMO.
> 
> If the breeder is going to use an untitled dog in the pairing, I'd at least like the other dog to have titles.


The question I think was what can you expect given the pedigrees -


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## DaniFani (Jan 24, 2013)

holland said:


> The question I think was what can you expect given the pedigrees -


I think it's hard to predict much when the mother and father aren't being worked (based only on what's on the pedigree). I'm curious if Cliff has seen the mother and/or father worked. Pedigrees are great, but imho, the parent's and their temperaments are more important. I place great emphasis on a pedigree, but the parent's character, temperament, drives and what they've produced in the past, are further up my list. Plenty of not-so-great dogs have come from "nice balanced pedigrees."

I would want to have mother and father evaluated by someone I trust (since they aren't titled beyond basic stuff), and predict from there. That's the nice thing about titles/accomplishments, it gives you are starting point. 

All that being said, the dog is 6ish months old, it should be giving a good idea of what it's potential is by now. I'm actually curious for OP to come back, and let us know if the temperament is as balanced as predicted, that at least, should be pretty apparent at this point.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Dawn - this is one from your C litter? Nothing to add on the pedigree...could only regurgitate what the party line is on titled parents so now use cluttering your post...just curious if she's your breeding.

Cliff - can you please expand on your opinion? Always interesting to hear your analysis!


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey, I might sit down tomorrow and tell you what I see from a genetic perspective. I know titles don't pass genetically, so I didn't factor that in. I have bought many many dogs in past twenty years, in which I didn't see the parents work, these dogs almost always are as good or better than people showing me their dogs when they did see the parents. Of course most people viewing parents work really can't tell the difference between what they see that is genetic and what is training....I was always taught that training won't pass to the pups either....lol. But for those that are interested I will give an open opinion on why I like this pedigree. Right now it's 1:30 am and my battery is low.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay, Back again.....btw, Jax08, I love the the quote in bold letters at bottom of your post....makes me think of some of replies I often see.
I will give my general observations on this pedigree to come to my conclusion and like; that I posted above. 
I will divide the pedigree into 4 quadrants emanating from Sylar and Yoko.
Sylar comes from Veit and Cecca. Veit comes from top working/sport lines of today...especially sire line through Branko, that the Salzablicks are known for sport/structure progeny. Heavy T- litter Nabarschaft .
Sylar's dam Cecca is very interesting genetics and very appealing to me. Falk has good hard workinglines on sire side and dam side (Minka) goes back to some of the best old working/herding stock known for bidability and resilience ( Norbo v Martestock)....Cecca's dam line through Wendy is contemporary high sport breeding of today.
Yoko's sire Donner is solid working lines, linebred on Aik v Haus Cindy. Aik was controversial dog, some liked him and others didn't. He could produce some strong clear dogs, but also could have health/temperament variance as many popular studs have.
Yoko's dam May has excellent alternative working lines from what we primarily see today....I think that is good, but I do have concern with May's dam outline going through Dorle having sketchy hip history.
Overall, I like the balance in this pedigree greatly. I like seeing Enno Beilstein and Norbo v Martestock as examples of extremely valuable dogs giving the pedigree traits we are losing. 
Remember, this is general overview, but it is based on some concrete knowledge of dogs that passed certain traits consistently. Not a guarantee by any measure, but the OP asked for the pedigree to be read, this is my limited view. I see a whole lot more than this in the pedigree, and during the development of 8 to 10 pups much of the other stuff will also show up....but this is just general feelings.
Now I know that pedigrees dialogue doesn't float everyone's boat, so it's back to private request only for looking at pedigrees, and let the titles, certs, and visual screening advocates have the floor.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

cliffson1 said:


> Okay, Back again.....btw, Jax08, I love the the quote in bold letters at bottom of your post....makes me think of some of replies I often see.
> .


I stole it from my son's girlfriend. It seemed such a WISE observation from one so young.


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## jmdjack (Oct 2, 2009)

Cliff, thank you for the analysis. Not my dog and not my request, but I very much appreciate the knowledge being shared. If you don’t mind elaborating, I would really appreciate your thoughts on the Anderl vom Kleinen Pfahl sons, Enno vom Beilstein and Norbo vom Haus Marterstock, and the traits they are known for passing that we are losing. Thanks again.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hardness, clearheaded while in drive, discernment.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

I will say, Cliff you are spot on in your predictions. All that you have said about what could be produced, was. Conner is balanced, clear headed, biddable, has a certain hardness, drives without being over the top. Mind you he is still very young.

I had Conner until about 4 months old. Yes Jax, from my 'C' litter. Just bred Yoko to the same male again, hoping to get a female to keep. Only my third litter, so I wasnt sure if what I was seeing in Conner was just me being prejudiced. That is why I gave so little information, wanted honest opinons. 

I understand others comments on not seeing the dogs in action, so not able to assess the parents. But as Cliff said, was looking to see what someone might expect to be produced with this pairing, not what was produced. The sire is from a very well respected kennel and the current owner is very knowledgeable about her dogs. There are a couple people on this forum with Austerlitz dogs. You must also remember, titles are not the be all end all. If the countries top Schutzhund expert bred young untitled dogs, that were being worked, to see if they could produce, would you second guess the breeding just because the dogs were not titled? That was just a question to think about, has no connection to these dogs. 

Both dogs are worked in different venues. Yoko has one leg toward her open title. Only a couple of her puppies have been x-rayed, OFA good.


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## vomlittlehaus (Aug 24, 2010)

Wanted to share a comment from my breeder, she has Conner: 

"Sylar produces some pretty big kids, huge bone and not small dogs either. I'm super impressed with Conner. I'm pretty sure he has the most training potential of any dog I have ever owned." 

I wanted to share how he is turning out. She uses him as a demo dog in her training classes quite frequently. As much as breeders try to breed the perfect dog, with all the researching and studying of dogs and pedigrees, some times they get it right. Conner has one retained testicle. That sucks in the biggest way.


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