# DM Questions



## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

I have been doing a lot of reading on the disease and was wondering what other members think and feel about breeding a DM carrier. Although we have no dogs here with this, but we are concerned about this disease and try to keep up on all the latest news. We have tested our dogs and so far we have had our dogs tests come back clear of DM.

My concern is when you breed a dog that has been found to be a carrier to a non- carrier, what is the chance of producing pups that are found to be carriers. If there is a chance of this happening I would not make a practice of it as we do not want to contribute to the problems that come up in our breed.


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

what is DM???


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## sgtmom52 (Aug 30, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: doggiedadwhat is DM???


Degenerative Myelopathy

It is a very nasty disease which took the life of my girl Kodi several years ago.








my Kodi Bear


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## Schutzhundgirl (Oct 26, 2006)

Following basic Mendelian genetic principles, you can expect 50% of the puppies to be carriers if you bred a non-carrier to a carrier.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

DM > http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/DM_Web/DMofGS.htm


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks for the link, As for breeding a carrier, this will not happen here due to us not wanting to contribute to the disease.


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

Chuck, what DM test(s) have you done?


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## shepherdbydesign (Mar 7, 2007)

For what I was told and found out OFA has a DM test Aval. and plan on ordering a few test kits for our dogs. As for right now as far as I know we have no carriers here. But like you all know that could change as the tests begin here.

If DM works the same as EPI does than I would think that if 2 carriers breed there is a better chance to produce a pup that has full blown DM. So far what I did read was that even if you breed a dog that is a carrier you can produce carriers in their offspring.

I was just reading about a member on another forum that I go to that has a carrer in her kennel which was the reason I am starting to ask more about this genetic disease. To me it doesn't make any sense to be breeding a dog that is a known carrier


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

The OFA test is part of the research that U of Missouri is doing, I believe. I'm not familiar with how their results are obtained or how they grade them. However, my Starine has very recently been diagnosed with DM and we did the Flash test from the U of Florida where Dr. Clemmons has been researchuing the disease for 20 + years. These are some of the comments in Star's lab report:

" _We do not currently know if the DM Flash test becomes positive before the signs of clinical disease are apparent or if the DM Flash test could indicate a genetic potential to develop DM, we only know that it is abnormal in DM dogs diagnosed by our criteria." _ 

As far as someone who is breeding dogs who suspects that their dogs could pass on DM, even generations from now, I am at a loss for words. I am going through one of the worst times of my life right now since getting Star's diganosis, and I can't fathom any reason to inflict this amount of pain upon anyone else, if it could be prevented.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

> Quote:For what I was told and found out OFA has a DM test Aval. and plan on ordering a few test kits for our dogs. As for right now as far as I know we have no carriers here. But like you all know that could change as the tests begin here.


But how do you know if you haven't tested yet?


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

as he stated "as far as I know we have no carriers here"


> Originally Posted By: Andaka
> 
> 
> > Quote:For what I was told and found out OFA has a DM test Aval. and plan on ordering a few test kits for our dogs. As for right now as far as I know we have no carriers here. But like you all know that could change as the tests begin here.
> ...


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## agilegsds (Dec 31, 2003)

In the start of the thread he said his dogs were tested. I'm a little confused.



> Originally Posted By: chuck Although we have no dogs here with this, but we are concerned about this disease and try to keep up on all the latest news. We have tested our dogs and so far we have had our dogs tests come back clear of DM.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Is DM the thread issue or people? Are there any other breeders out here with any questions or add's?? I, myself would like to know, because one of my dogs died from DM.......


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## zyppi (Jun 2, 2006)

It's an awful disease. 

I lost a GSD to it a few years ago.

Hard decision how long to let them go on. One of the most difficult decision I've ever made.

I was living in Florida where much of the research is done and understood, at that time, that there were no tests to verify a dog had DM until he was symptomatic.

Perhaps they have a test now.

I can't imagine someone purposely breeding a dog that might pass DM on to future generations.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Yes, Anne it is an awful desease. I also agree about people passing it to future generations.


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## shilohsmom (Jul 14, 2003)

I don't know a thing about breeding...when asked if I breed my dogs I always say 'No, I leave that up to the experts'. But as a layperson, and someone who loves our breed I am constantly saddened when I see our breed on the top of so many lists of diseases and conditions. We've become so familiar with these things we only have to refer to them by a couple of letters and we know what we are talking about (DM, EPI, PF just to name a few).

I'd say if there is any chance of ruling out these diseases/conditions as breeders you need to take these steps. I don't mind paying more for a pup if it decreases my chances of my baby suffering later. As breeders you owe it this breed, to the pups and your buyers not to breed questionable dogs.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

There are two tests to determine if the dog carries the DM gene. There is the OFA test and Clemmons' test. My understanding is that Clemmons' believes that the DM in GSDs is different than DM in other breeds. The test doesn't tell you if your dog has DM, only the gene for it (or as a carrier I think). The gene, plus sympoms, and rule out of other diseases is how the diagnosis is made. *I think*, I don't know a lot about DM.

Sure would be nice if breeders did test for the gene.


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## spiritsmom (Mar 1, 2003)

Didn't know there is an OFA test for it. I've only ever had the Clemmon's Flash test done. 

But so many breeders do so little health testing, this would be one more test that the majority will not do so even if your dog was tested and found to not be a carrier will you only breed to dogs that were also cleared of carrier status? That'll certainly limit who you breed to because I couldn't find many breeders that tested beyond hips, if they even did that. 

If I were to ever breed a dog the list of tests I would subject him/her to would be lengthy and might just guarantee that I will never breed a dog anyway!


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: spiritsmomDidn't know there is an OFA test for it. I've only ever had the Clemmon's Flash test done.


There are some out there that question if the test used in conjunction with OFA is really the "right" test for GSDs.

If I had a dog I suspected had DM or if I were going to breed, I'd use Dr Clemmon's Flash test


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## Smittybarb (Dec 2, 2009)

I lost my beloved German Shepherd male to this horrible disease in May 2009 at 13 years old. I became a virtual expert on DM during the year prior to his death and had him on Dr. Clemmons protocol using his recommended Florida pharmacy for his meds.

During my research on all info I could get on DM, and any treatment possiblities that may be out there, I discovered this newly available DNA test for the genes responsible for the genetic defect.

Here is the link to the University of Missouri, College of Veterinary Medicine that has the test information. On this site, you will be able to find out nearly everything you want to know about Degenerative Myelopathy, the DNA test, and breeding recommendations. Use the menu on the left side of the site to navigate the information.

http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/mainDM.htm

It seems many breeders are unaware this test exists. Please spread the word among any breeders you may know so we may, at the very least, greatly decrease the occurance of this disease in our Shepherds, and maybe in time, with diligent breeding practices, totally eradicate it from them.

I intend to ask the breeder of my next puppy if the parents were tested for this, and if not, what guarantee might they offer if I have my puppy tested and, God forbid, he tests with both genes abnormal. As I understand it, no dog has yet been confirmed to have developed DM UNLESS both genes were abnormal.

I hope this information helps!


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## GracieGeorgie (May 8, 2010)

*BYB Gastoinia NC*

There is (I believe) a BYB in Gastonia NC that is breeding GSD's that carry this genetic trait. Three dogs with this condition have been pulled from the Gaston County Animal Shelter with this condition. All are very large GSD. 

What a huge disservice to the breed.


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## boeselager (Feb 26, 2008)

agilegsds said:


> In the start of the thread he said his dogs were tested. I'm a little confused.


I think all people were asking is did you test your dog's? or not? b/c if you read back he did kind of contradict himself on the same page. It's alright to still ask on here isn't it?? 
Anyway, I did DM test my stud muffin Zavien through OFA and he came back Clear/Normal. I plan on doing all of my dog's, but it will take some time. I'm not made out of money  If you do breed a carrier to a non carrier then the litter will be 50-50. If you breed a carrier to a carrier then you will get carriers, and I would think possible pups that could get the DM I would think??


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

Kelly, just following the DM trait with the OFA test is pretty simple:

normal x normal = all pups normal
normal x carrier = 1/2 pups carrier, 1/2 pups normal
carrier x carrier = 1/2 pups carrier, 1/4 pups DM, 1/4 pups normal
normal x DM = all pups carriers
carrier x DM = 1/2 pups DM, 1/2 pups carrier
DM x DM = all pups DM.

You can see that if carriers (and DM) were never bred, then DM would gradually disappear. Put another way, if people only bred dogs known not to have or carry the DM trait, DM would disappear. (if you believe the OFA screen).

MJ


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Dr. Clemmons wrote in a letter back in February that he did not feel German Shepherd DM screening should, at this time, be done as a breeding test.
He stated that the predictive value of a positive test is only about 11%.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

There seems to be a lot of questions regarding whether or not the OFA DM test is accurate for GSDs. We've done it with several of our dogs, but I'm still unsure how much stock I'd put into it. The more I research on it, the more confusing it gets and it certainly is not as simple as a yes/no DNA test. 

Also, it's important to point out that a dog who comes back "at risk" for DM is just that; at risk. It is absolutely not guaranteed that dog will get DM. They know that dogs with DM carry the genetic trait for it, but also know that many dogs who carry the genes for it do not come down with actual DM. So clearly there is something else going on there.




Mary Jane said:


> You can see that if carriers (and DM) were never bred, then DM would gradually disappear. Put another way, if people only bred dogs known not to have or carry the DM trait, DM would disappear. (if you believe the OFA screen).
> MJ


Theoretically, if the DNA test is accurate. However breeding is never that simple, and no one factor should be an overwhelming determinant in breeding. When any *one* thing is focused on, even something like trying to eliminate a genetic disease, other problems creep in. The more shallow the gene pool gets, which is what happens when dogs are excluded or overly utilized for a certain specific trait without looking at the big picture, all sorts of bad things happen.

Furthermore, the OFA statistics for DM DNA tests on GSDs currently list 52% of the GSD population (granted, this is just those tested) as abnormal. With 31% being carriers and 21% at risk. In a breed where many other health problems exist, temperament and nerve issues are prevalent, and that in some cases already has a very shallow gene pool, throwing out more than half the population as breeding candidates and making that gene pool even more shallow is not really prudent.


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## FredD (Jul 5, 2009)

Good post, Chris!


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

Also, it's important to point out that a dog who comes back "at risk" for DM is just that; at risk. It is absolutely not guaranteed that dog will get DM. They know that dogs with DM carry the genetic trait for it, but also know that many dogs who carry the genes for it do not come down with actual DM. So clearly there is something else going on there.

Chris or any other breeders would you breed a dog or use a stud that comes back "at risk"? I understand that the dogs tested may not have the disease but to take a chance is a risk IMO.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Breeding is *always* a risk. What if that "at risk" dog produces 100% perfect health, temperament and nerve otherwise? Would it be better to breed a "normal" dog who produced only 95% perfect health, temperament or nerve? Again, I don't think sound breeding decisions are based on any one factor. 

The Seeing Eye saw this with their breeding program. They focused for a long time on hips and eventually all but completely eliminated HD from their lines..... only to suddenly find themselves producing astronomicaly high numbers of pups with ME compared to the general population. Was that a fair trade off? Well, people who have been through HD with their dogs might say "heck, yes!", but people who have had symptomatic ME might say "I'd rather pay for a hip replacement than deal with this every day". 

The same goes for DM. Some, particularly those who have dealt with it, might say to breed 2 dogs that are anything less than "normal" is horribly unethical. But then the people who have dealt with EPI will say the same, as will the people who have experienced HD or ED or PF or allergies or most any other health problem. Now toss temperament factors into the mix too. Most health issues are easier to deal with, accept and manage than weak nerves... plus far less dangerous.

Start eliminating every single dog with any genes for bad things, and there will be no dogs left. Overly focus on one thing, and something else will crop up. Breeding has to be about balance and the overall picture, and steps should be taken to minimize risks, but calculated risk is a part of breeding and risks cannot be eliminated entirely.

Would I breed an "at risk" dog? Probably not, but I sure can't say definitely not. It would depend on what that dog had to offer otherwise. If that were essentially the only negative for that dog, and he brought to the table exactly what I wanted otherwise and I couldn't find that elsewhere in a package without the "at risk" factor, or could only find in a package with negatives that were equally as bad, or more numerous, or worse, I might consider it. Though I'd only breed "at risk" to "normal" so as there would be no chance of producing pups who were "at risk" themselves. I would also breed a "carrier", for the same reasons, but only to a "normal" so again there was no chance of producing "at risk" pups.


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## luvsables (May 7, 2007)

Thanks for the reponse Chris.


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## WynterCote (Feb 15, 2010)

I agree with the minority here. There's not enough information available on what it would do the breed if all DM carriers were essentially thrown out of the gene pool. There may be a reason why ~ 30% are carriers.

Take the case of sickle-cell anemia in humans, for example. Carriers of the sickle cell gene are resistant to malaria, which is why so many of them survived to pass on the trait. There could be an advantage to a GSD being a carrier of DM.

Also, the gene for DM could be 'linked' to a gene that is desirable.. such as higher intelligence, or better hips, etc. Genes are called 'linked' when they are near each other on DNA because they tend to be inherritted together more often then not. Eliminating DM carriers could drastically lower occurance of an unrelated 'good' gene.

However, now that a test is availabe to identify carriers, it would be unethical to breed to known DM carriers.


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## arycrest (Feb 28, 2006)

WynterCote said:


> I agree with the minority here. There's not enough information available on what it would do the breed if all DM carriers were essentially thrown out of the gene pool. There may be a reason why ~ 30% are carriers.
> ...


Just curious, maybe it's been answered and I missed it, but where did this 30% carrier come from? Did this 30% come using Dr. Clemmons flash test or that other test?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

arycrest said:


> Just curious, maybe it's been answered and I missed it, but where did this 30% carrier come from? Did this 30% come using Dr. Clemmons flash test or that other test?


The OFA DNA test. 

OFA: DNA Test Statistics


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

WynterCote said:


> I agree with the minority here. There's not enough information available on what it would do the breed if all DM carriers were essentially thrown out of the gene pool. There may be a reason why ~ 30% are carriers..





WynterCote said:


> However, now that a test is availabe to identify carriers, it would be unethical to breed to known DM carriers.


These 2 statements seem contridictory. Unless by the second you mean breeding 2 carriers together?

Of course, as more testing becomes available now the trick becomes getting people to use it. Many will not because they just don't want to know, and others because while they would like to know for their own purposes are worried about what all the internet breeding experts and rumor mongers will do with that information if their dog is less than 100% perfect, and their worries in that regard are very well founded. 

Try finding a stud who has been tested, or who's owner is willing to test... not easy. And if one restricts stud options to only those few who are tested, what a tiny gene pool that makes available.


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## WynterCote (Feb 15, 2010)

Chris Wild said:


> These 2 statements seem contridictory. Unless by the second you mean breeding 2 carriers together?
> 
> Try finding a stud who has been tested, or who's owner is willing to test... not easy. And if one restricts stud options to only those few who are tested, what a tiny gene pool that makes available.


Yes, I meant breeding 2 known carriers together would be unethical in my opinion (my typo, to = two, sorry). In this case 1/2 the offspring would be expected to have DM.

However, I wasn't implying that breeding should be restricted to only tested dogs. Currently, there isn't enough testing done.

But regardless, testing a dog and finding it to be a carrier, should not be such a stigma amongst breeders. There's no reason to retire a carrier. It can successfully be bred to a non-carrier with no consequences.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

WynterCote said:


> There's no reason to retire a carrier. It can successfully be bred to a non-carrier with no consequences.


Actually, the outcome of breeding a carrier to a (known) non-carrier is that half the pups are carriers. 

On a different but related matter, some time ago someone was going to test their dogs in both the OFA test and the Flash test. Did they post the results?

thanks,
Mary Jane


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## WynterCote (Feb 15, 2010)

Mary Jane said:


> Actually, the outcome of breeding a carrier to a (known) non-carrier is that half the pups are carriers.


Yes, half the pups will be carriers, but it will not affect them nor burden their owners. The problem comes again if these pups are used for furthering the line, and now we've come back full-circle to the question of whether the carriers should be bred or not. As long as they are bred to non-carriers every generation, there will be no DM dogs produced.

The problem arises, as mentioned above, that testing is not common. But why is that? Is it expensive? Is it not accurate? Just wondering, because it seems that if testing was the norm, then educated decisions about breeding could be made.


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## Texas (Jan 3, 2011)

Sandy,l
I am so sorry to hear about your beloved. I lost Spirit to DM earlier this month. It is still hard on me but he did let me know when it was time. It made it a little easier but having to make that decision is horrible. You picture your friend growing old and going in his sleep only to find out that will not be the case. I tried almost everything to no avail. Although it is supposed to be a painless disease I still gave him Previcox as I cannot believe that, how he walked and fell, wasn't painful elsewhere. As far as testing goes, I never had him tested - you can read enough to know without a test. The signs are classic and undeniable. My best advice would be to prepare early, love your pet and know in advance there is nothing that can be done.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

My 11yo showline GSD tested as carrier (Missouri test) and he is showing symptoms of DM. According to the interpretation of the test, he should not develop symptoms of DM. I am not sure how velid this test is for GSDs and I am not sure that there is not an additional factor that is responsible for DM. Our neurologist was not willing to rule out DM based on the test results and feels that there is not enough data available.

BTW we have started stem cell treatment and his mobility improved and activitly level increased dramatically after the first treatment. I am hoping that the stem cell treatment will curb the DM.

Testing should be done, but there is a danger of limiting the gene pool based on a test that has not really been proven that well for GSDs. The only way to confirm the DM diagnosis is necropsy.


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