# What are the odds...color question? Sables...Black



## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Bred my black sable female to a solid black stud...figure I would get some sable and some black. Did AI ....got 4 solid black pups....NO sables...Odds must be very high against all solid blacks right? Really wanted some sables....

So now I want to breed them again in the future...will I get any sables?

Here is the pedigree information. Drako Atticus Hexe The stud:

On one side it is completely sables 5 generations back. On the other side in the 5th and 6th generation I am seeing a couple solid black.

Dam I bred him to is Nikita Galadriel of Crooked Creek...she is a dark or black sable (has penciling on toes/legs)

Nikita's mother is sable her father black. In Nikita's 1st three generations I am seeing 7 solid blacks in the pedigree so strong prescence of black here.

Will I get sables this time? What are the odds that the first breeding would produce ONLY solid blacks?

Just curious... if you genetic gurus are inside cause it is so HOT out there and you're bored......


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Yes you can get sables. Sable is the dominant color gene, BUT apparently your female is black recessive so she is the one determining color. If she throws her black color gene, all blacks, throws the sable one, get sables with black recessive.

I have a red sable who carries black. Bred to a bicolor/black recessive, get all 3 colors. I had a litter of 13, 8 were black, last litter of 9? One black, 2 bicolors, 6 sables. Luck of the draw.

So again, your female is the one determining color in this case since the male could only throw black. Eventually she'll throw sable


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Each individual pup has a 50/50 shot of being sable or black. Sometimes the genes just match up that way. Just because you got all blacks in one litter doesn't mean you'll get all blacks in the next. You might get a mix. You might get all sables. It's all in how the genes match up in each individual pup, and as I said with those color genes available, each pup has a 50/50 chance of being either color.

This spring we bred a black female to a sable male who carries black. From a statistical standpoint, we'd have expected half the litter to be black, half sable. Instead we got 8 sables, not one single solid black. Just the way it goes sometimes.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Also don't forget that jerk Murphy and the law he made... which essentially says that you'll get the opposite of whatever you want.

Want blacks? You'll get sables. Want sables? You'll get blacks? Want males? You'll get females. Want females? You'll get males.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

lol, yep


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Hmmm.....funny Chris how you got all the sables and I got all the blacks....


Well I'll cross my fingers that this time the odds will be in favor of some sables.

Thanks


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

OK so I have another stud for her I am considering...he is sable and has only sable 7 generations back...I'll get sable right?


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

IF both mother and sire lines for the last few are all sable, probably. Has he been bred before? Look at his progeny. Dogs that only have sable will only produce sable no matter what you breed to. My female Oxana, only sable. So I bred her to a black male, ergo Diesel. Sable/black recessive. Now I get colors other than sable.


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Yes I have used him 3 times before with actually Nikita's dam (not Nikita though so not a daughter /father breeding just to clarify) who is a sable. I got sables and black/tans out of those breedings in all the litters.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

Then he's not strictly a sable. In order to get the black/tans they both have to carry in order to override a sable gene


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Yes my mistake there is a bi-color and black and tan 3-4 generations back on him.


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## Mary Jane (Mar 3, 2006)

*Re: What are the odds...color question? Sables...B*

Ignoring other factors, with an Ss (sable) x ss (black) cross the progeny can only be Ss and ss with 50% likelihood for each.

To get four black pups you have .5 x .5 x .5 x .5 = 6.2 %.

It seems not to be very likely but 6% is not zero.

In the next breeding if every pup results from a single egg (no twins) and thus are independent, then each pup has a 50% chance of being sable.

(this answers the OP)

MJ


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## pupresq (Dec 2, 2005)

Then if you breed him to your sable bitch you'll (statistically only of course) have a 75% chance of sable puppies and a 25% chance of BT or Bicolor or whatever he's carrying. You won't get any blacks if he's not carrying a black recessive and statistically only 25% of your sables will be black recessive which may or may not affect how dark the other ones are.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

I used this yrs ago:

http://www.tenset.co.uk/doggen/indexus.html

genetics primer for dogs







You enter in color, health, etc to determine probabilities.


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## Crookedcreekranch (May 27, 2008)

Thanks for the link for genetics primer. I will check it out....very interesting.....


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Your female carries a black recessive - the male is sable carrying a B/T recessive - this time the female recessive genes dictated the color. Next time, you could get sables - or Blacks with B/T recessive or B/T with Black recessive - and your sables could have either recessive 

My F litter from 2 sables - got 6 sables, 2 blacks; my G litter from 2 sables - 7 sables, 1 Bicolor (will have black recessive); my H litter from 2 sables - 7 sables, 1 black; my I litter - a black to a sable - 4 blacks (mother expressing her black recessive from her black sire) and 2 sables getting a black recessive from their black sire....and I needed sable males this litter!

Lee


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum or Blacks with B/T recessive


Gotta be a typo here because I know Lee knows better.









There's no such thing as a black with black/tan recessive. If it had a black/tan gene it would be black/tan, since solid black is recessive to everything and the only way a dog can be solid black is if both it's color genes are for black and it carries no genes for other colors.


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## windwalker718 (Oct 9, 2008)

That's okay Lee... I've gotten used the Idea of my lil Inkblot... I should name him Rorschach


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildGotta be a typo here because I know Lee knows better.


That was actually Ikon at the keyboard checking to see if people here on the board were awake


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