# Pet hoarders often rescuers



## FredD

Pet hoarders often rescuers - The Macomb Daily News: Breaking news coverage for Macomb County, Michigan


----------



## Jax's Mom

I've noticed a lot of people associated with rescue organizations to have this sort of superiority complex that are also mildly deficient of reality. 
That's not to say the ones that are genuinely in it to make a positive impact should be lumped in there with them but this doesn't surprise me at all.
When a rescue won't hand over a pet to someone that a reputable breeder has no problem selling to, there's something wrong.
Is it not counterproductive of what they're doing to force someone to "buy new" when there is a "used" one available? Doesn't that just further create extra inventory??


----------



## paulag1955

Jax's Mom said:


> When a rescue won't hand over a pet to someone that a reputable breeder has no problem selling to, there's something wrong. Is it not counterproductive of what they're doing to force someone to "buy new" when there is a "used" one available? Doesn't that just further create extra inventory??


This is my beef with so many rescue organizations; their adoption requirements are so stringent as to disqualify many, many would-be responsible pet owners.


----------



## KZoppa

paulag1955 said:


> This is my beef with so many rescue organizations; their adoption requirements are so stringent as to disqualify many, many would-be responsible pet owners.


 
i agree. There is a rescue in SC that has adoption requirements so ridiculous that despite meeting all other requirements, we cant adopt from that rescue because we're military. There is another rescue that works through NC and VA that wont adopt because we have kids, despite the dogs they get coming from homes with kids and being temperment tested and passing for everything. I know they want the best home possible but seriously?


----------



## paulag1955

I'd read that animal hoarders were more likely than the general population to have been sexually abused as children, but I can't find the link right now.


----------



## Shavy

Jax's Mom said:


> I've noticed a lot of people associated with rescue
> Is it not counterproductive of what they're doing to force someone to "buy new" when there is a "used" one available? Doesn't that just further create extra inventory??


Agreed. I think a lot of breed-specific rescues work with ideals more than reality. I think it's ideal that every dog has a nice big fenced yard (especially large breed dogs), but not having one does not mean you can't be a responsible dog owner. Ditto having children, or working outside the home. If these dogs are sitting in foster care for months or years, or in shelters, it seems to me that the emphasis should be on finding them a great home, not a PERFECT home. 

Plenty of people want to adopt from rescues, are turned away, and go and get a puppy. There's something wrong with that.


----------



## Stosh

I had that experience when I tried adopting through rescues- we didn't qualify because we don't have a doggie door to provide 24 hr access to the house. But I work from home so I'm always there to open the door for a dog, I mean come on, I'm a valet, doorman and concierge all rolled into one but I couldn't qualify?? Then there's the other extreme-I live in a fairly rural area of TX and many of the so-called rescues are self described, they actually search shelters for purebreds then 'rescue' them, feed them a bag of food then charge an outrageous amount to 'adopt.' I talked to one woman near Houston who wanted $60 for gas to meet me halfway to take a gsd I had never even seen before- I would have to take him on the spot because she had 10 other dogs in her yard and had to get rid of one so she could take in another. I know there are many dedication, wonderful rescue organizations but I wasn't able to find one.


----------



## kallie

As anything, yes some rescue people can be hoarders, as so can breeders. However, I think the number is *extremely* low..

As far as rescues making it hard for adoption, they should. As one that does rescue, I am very PICKY and strict on where my foster dogs go. I put in a lot of time, my own money and work, not to see them go to a forever home. A lot of them have seen a number of homes already, it would be horrible to me not to be strict to try to get them in that right home. The only one good way to try to make sure that happens, is to be picky with the adoptions..

You cannot compare the process of buying a pup from a breeder to getting/buying a pup from a rescue. Different rules...However, my breeder did ask me questions


----------



## Stosh

My breeder asked questions too but not if I had a doggie door. I know rescues have to be picky but I think in some cases they hold the dog out like a prize you're not worthy of.


----------



## onyx'girl

I think anyone who hoards anything has a screw loose. I use to work in the exotic parrot breeding field, and so many people would get into it, go overboard so they couldn't properly take care of the birds they had. Birds are very high maintenance and daily care must be provided. I think about 1/3 of the ones who called themselves breeders were actually hoarders. It was one of the reasons I got out of it, heartbreaking.
I've watched a few of these episodes, they are so sad:
http://animal.discovery.com/tv/confessions-animal-hoarding/


----------



## kallie

Stosh said:


> My breeder asked questions too but not if I had a doggie door. I know rescues have to be picky but I think in some cases they hold the dog out like a prize you're not worthy of.


I personally have never asked that question, so can't comment


----------



## KZoppa

when we were looking for another GSD to add to our family i found a very nice male through a rescue in SC. He was gorgeous. Got along great with kids of all ages, couldnt get enough kisses in. Good with cats and other dogs. LOVED car rides. great all around dog. We have a small yard and that wasnt a problem because it was at least fenced in and there are open spaces for exercise and we do lots of walking. We were turned down because we're military. Flat out said they couldnt and would NEVER adopt to military. So this dog still sits in foster care because we werent good enough because of how we choose to live. They even did a home check and we passed that with flying colors. I was beyond insulted. and it is exactly as someone said. We tried to adopt and ended up getting a puppy instead. We still have yet to find a good match for us through another rescue.


----------



## RebelGSD

Didn't the base police just remove a dog from your house because you were over limit?

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/141923-non-gsd-rant-irresponsible-people-3.html

She is at a shelter where she might be PTS and you are looking for another dog?


----------



## kallie

KZoppa said:


> when we were looking for another GSD to add to our family i found a very nice male through a rescue in SC. He was gorgeous. Got along great with kids of all ages, couldnt get enough kisses in. Good with cats and other dogs. LOVED car rides. great all around dog. We have a small yard and that wasnt a problem because it was at least fenced in and there are open spaces for exercise and we do lots of walking. We were turned down because we're military. Flat out said they couldnt and would NEVER adopt to military. So this dog still sits in foster care because we werent good enough because of how we choose to live. They even did a home check and we passed that with flying colors. I was beyond insulted. and it is exactly as someone said. We tried to adopt and ended up getting a puppy instead. We still have yet to find a good match for us through another rescue.


Since that area is an area for military families, their decision could be based on the fact that some military people are homed in different areas even out of the country, where the dog is not going to be able to go for one reason or the other. Which I personally can understand a rescue being stricter.


----------



## Liesje

kallie said:


> You cannot compare the process of buying a pup from a breeder to getting/buying a pup from a rescue. Different rules...However, my breeder did ask me questions


And yet, so often I read rescuers insisting that breeders use the same protocol when screening families.

One problem I had with a rescue was they didn't want me to adopt a cat because I would not get my mom on the phone saying it was OK. Um, my mom hates cats and I'm an adult with my own home! That was so weird. I gave them references and even took my best friend with me as a reference, but they insisted on talking to my mom. Also I rent and previously did not have a fenced in yard. I know those are often instant disqualifiers but luckily did not prevent us from adopting Coke from a rescue.

As for rescuers being hoarders, I think it's more correct to say that a lot of hoarders refer to themselves as "rescuers". I watch that hoarding show and when they have animal hoarders they are always talking about how they "rescued" this cat and that dog, or they are just operating a "rescue". On one episode I just saw a family member of the hoarder said something to the effect of, "[so and so] truly believes that no one else can take as good of care of the animals as her." Just because someone says it's a rescue does not make it so, IMO. It's like so many breeders' sites that insist they breed "champion lines" but have never championed a dog themselves and none of the dogs they bred are champions (of anything).


----------



## KZoppa

RebelGSD said:


> Didn't the base police just remove a dog from your house because you were over limit?
> 
> http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/141923-non-gsd-rant-irresponsible-people-3.html
> 
> She is at a shelter where she might be PTS and you are looking for another dog?


*she was removed because we had no intention of keeping her and therefore refused to register her with housing. We were given a time limit to rehome her as fostering is allowed. When we were looking for another GSD to add to our family, we looked at rescues first. This was about a year and a half ago that we were looking. We were turned down because we were military. This was also before we moved into base housing. Mia has nothing to do with this. *

*Side note: Mia did get adopted to an older couple so she's safe. She was apparently adopted her 2nd day at the shelter by one of the desk workers. *



kallie said:


> Since that area is an area for military families, their decision could be based on the fact that some military people are homed in different areas even out of the country, where the dog is not going to be able to go for one reason or the other. Which I personally can understand a rescue being stricter.


*Regarding being military with the possibility of moving overseas and being unable to take the dog with us, my husband and i already have paperwork stating that i would stay in the states with the kids and the animals because i adamently refuse to live outside the country. We presented the paperwork at the time of our application, notorized, and we were still turned down. When i asked about it, i was told it was because we were likely to get stationed outside of the adoption area and they would have great difficulty getting the dog back should we have to rehome the dog. Its just very frustrating because as someone said previously some of the rescues spend too much time on trying to find the PERFECT home instead of the right home which could turn into the perfect home. *


----------



## kallie

Liesje said:


> And yet, so often I read rescuers insisting that breeders use the same protocol when screening families.


I cannot speak for other rescues, only for myself. I have never compared the two and never will. I myself have adopted from a rescue and bought from a breeder, it was two different processes..Sure a breeder will ask questions, but I personally don't think the majority have the same requirements as that of a rescue..just me


----------



## RebelGSD

KZoppa said:


> *We still have yet to find a good match for us through another rescue.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> It sounds like you are still looking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KZoppa said:
> 
> 
> 
> *she was removed because we had no intention of keeping her and therefore refused to register her with housing. We were given a time limit to rehome her as fostering is allowed. When we were looking for another GSD to add to our family, we looked at rescues first. This was about a year and a half ago that we were looking. We were turned down because we were military. This was also before we moved into base housing. Mia has nothing to do with this. *
> 
> 
> 
> So you rather have her end up in a heat-stick shelter than register her to buy her time to find her a good home? You had no way of knowing that she would get adopted. No rescue I know of will place a dog with a family that allowed a dog in their care end up in a heart-stick shelter or any shelter (I belive this is what you said in the other post).
Click to expand...


----------



## KZoppa

well i'm sorry if my wording is confusing to you. NO. We are not looking to add another GSD to our family at the present time nor the immediate future. I said we had been looking and HAD found a good match for us a year and a half ago. And no, i had no idea that Mia would be adopted but I have to keep a roof over my head and my childrens heads and i wasnt about to argue over the fact that we needed more time as we'd already been given an extension and told no more would be granted. and having our own dogs at the time, we wouldnt have been allowed to register her with us anyway. We never had an intention to keep her. She kept getting dumped back at our house. She showed up in our yard, we looked for her owners with no luck and rehomed her. She was then dumped back in our yard again with a note saying they couldnt keep as they couldnt have pets in their parents apartment whom they were moving home to take care of due to some illness. The next home returned her because she started her heat cycle and instead of getting her fixed and presenting proof to get back the $100 of the $150 adoption fee, they just ditched her. I'm starting an overnight job and she wouldnt have been able to stay anyway. I had no intention of rescuing another animal until we owned our own home anyway. What would you do when you have a dog you'd never seen before, continually dumped in your yard? We tried. Time ran out. I'm not going to risk my animals for one. I'm sorry but it wont happen. She got adopted so all is well. Please back off. Excuse me for not doing enough in your opinion.


----------



## KZoppa

RebelGSD said:


> KZoppa said:
> 
> 
> 
> *We still have yet to find a good match for us through another rescue.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> It sounds like you are still looking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you rather have her end up in a heat-stick shelter than register her to buy her time to find her a good home? You had no way of knowing that she would get adopted. No rescue I know of will place a dog with a family that allowed a dog in their care end up in a heart-stick shelter or any shelter (I belive this is what you said in the other post).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and in regards to what a rescue would do or not do, as i said we were looking a year and half ago before ANY of this happened. As sweet as Mia is, we didnt want her. I had no intention to foster. She was forced on us and as we know the reputation of the shelter here, i did what I could to keep her out of it but theres only so much a person can do after contacting rescues and being refused. We looked. We posted ads in the paper, online, posted flyers for someone to adopt her. if you could have done better, perhaps you should have taken her and found her a home yourself. I'm an animal lover but i do have limit means and being in my position, if i want to keep where i am, i have no choice but to listen to those who have more control. I wasnt going to risk my home for a dog that was never ours to begin with. I had her shots taken care of and she was fed and healthy. I did what i could within reason and the time i was given and i failed. People dont always win. Cold hard truth. And no i didnt have any way of knowing if she would get adopted or not. It was a risk. Just like we all take risks just leaving our houses in the morning. Stop judging me until you've walked in my shoes.
Click to expand...


----------



## Samba

If I were to breed a litter, I bet I could beat those rescues on requirements for ownership of a pup! I have a rescue girl right now. Looking for a home where she can be an indoor dog with access to furniture. She will need to be fed top of the line food (this includes some Honest Kitchen which she loves) and have ongoing medical care consistently. Someone needs to be home with her throughout the day. The person who gets her needs to have experience in positive training methods as well as experience with the breed. Fenced yard required. Stable address for several years. Multiple references needed. Home inspection. Maybe proof of income.

Yikes, she is going to end up here at this rate! I may be one of those hoarders someday. My great fear.


----------



## selzer

I think that it goes both ways.

I think some people start out rescuing and become overwhelmed, cannot say no when someone comes to the door with two dogs ro a litter of kittens, and before long, they can no longer afford spay/neuter and other vet care. With cats that are not fixed, it can spiral rather quickly. I would not be surprised if there was something in cat urine or something that can be inhaled by overages of cat urine that helps along the process of mental debilitation. Those people LIVE in places that others will go in only with masks on. It cannot be good for you.

I think that it could be like anorexia where you think you are fat, and you must starve yourself, even though you are underweight. I think these people do not see the deteriation and weight loss of the animals. 

I think that there are also hoarders who keep rescuing and consider themselves a rescue. 

I do not think any of these people are out to hurt animals. I think they do it, but it is not because they want to. I find it terribly sad. 

I better go home now and throw out all my dog food boxes and the little people I have been hoarding.


----------



## Zoeys mom

I fostered dogs and cats for many years until I had kids and all the sudden I was no longer a candidate. I have a fenced in back yard, only work 4-5 hours a day, and have all my dogs vet records which show I am a responsible pet owner. I feed decent food and exercise every dog daily but because of kids can not be a foster home until my kids are twelve in my county. Yet they allow elderly people with no real income in apartments to rescue anything that comes in just to free up another spot- I don't get it. I also know about the hoarders first hand and can't quite understand that either- at some point someone logical has to say hey isn't that too many? But they don't.


----------



## Lorelei

I wonder if some of them say, "If I don't rescue this guy, no one will!" and then eventually, they are completely overwhelmed with animals, but they can't turn any away because they want to save them. 

Of course, we all have different reasons for doing things, and some people may start hoarding because of mental instability, but I wonder if it can also start out as a way of trying to help, and then progress into an unhealthy situation. I've never known any hoarders though, so I don't really know, but I could see how wanting to save 'just one more' could progress like that. Also, all the pressure and work must be overwhelming, if you don't have any volunteers, so maybe the stress contributes too.


----------



## AgileGSD

Jax's Mom said:


> I've noticed a lot of people associated with rescue organizations to have this sort of superiority complex that are also mildly deficient of reality.
> That's not to say the ones that are genuinely in it to make a positive impact should be lumped in there with them but this doesn't surprise me at all.
> When a rescue won't hand over a pet to someone that a reputable breeder has no problem selling to, there's something wrong.
> Is it not counterproductive of what they're doing to force someone to "buy new" when there is a "used" one available? Doesn't that just further create extra inventory??


 This is so true. Sadly, while shelters blame the public for the animals they kill many are turning people down left and right for trivial reasons. 

We wouldn't have been able to get our corgi had we been honest on the application. I have multiple intact dogs and that alone would disqualify me from adopting from most shelters or rescues. Add to that my pets aren't vaccinated yearly and are fed raw food and there's no way I'd pass most screening. Yet I'm super involved in dogs - have dog jobs, train dogs for fun, teach training classes, show/trial dogs, have a dog 4h club. My husband has put agility and rally titles on the corgi. We're the sort of home shelters should hope their dogs are lucky enough to find. 

I know someone who was turned down to get a rescue dog because her CH/UD male (and only dog) was an intact male. And a GSD breeder was was turned down at a local shelter to adopt a 10 year old cat because of having intact dogs. I placed an Aussie I rescued in a very good, very Aussie experienced home who was turned down to get a rescue Aussie, after much run around about being screened because they don't have a fenced yard. This was their I believe 5th Aussie and all but one, who had a lot of health problems lived to old age. They only have one or maybe two at a time and take the dog everywhere with them.

Instead of evaluating individuals, many rescues/shelters have come up with blanket policies and a lot of animals lose out on their chance for a home because of it.


----------



## Mrs.K

I guess it all starts with guilt. You want to help and make a difference because you feel guilty. You can't stop and get addicted, lose yourself in it and end up just like the people you are trying to fight. Everywhere you turn people try to make you feel guilty for buying a dog from a breeder, for not fixing the dog, for living in an appartment (even though the dog gets more exercise than the dog with the big fenced in yard) and all kind of stuff.


----------



## Rerun

As someone who does a little private foster/rescue/adoption and some organized shelter fostering, I personally feel that most large rescue groups, especially the purebred ones, have ridiculous requirements. They can list every reason in the world for why they are so careful, and for a select few individual dogs this is necessary. However, your standard pet dog that would fit into several different lifestyles (young active guy living in a large apartment that jobs 5 miles a day but has no backyard, perhaps a family of 5 with a big backyard and 3 kids to toss a ball every day, a young couple who camps and hikes a lot, etc) often gets held onto for the perfect home that never seems to materialize.

Personally, we seek private adoptions and that seems to be best for us. We have the ideal dog home as many others have pointed out, but likely would be turned down by a rescue to adopt because we have a baby (I was pregnant when we adopted Kodi and we put him through a total hip replacement and rehab while I was pregnant). I really don't understand why people with kids get rid of their dogs. This is NOT that difficult if you are used to a busy lifestyle as it is. Our dogs are every bit as much apart of our lives as they were before. But there's no way a rescue would adopt to us. I was turned down by a shepherd rescue as a foster home because I had an intact female that was being spayed when she was 2 yrs old. I specifically said I could not foster intact males because of this. And yet their blanket rule disqualified me from fostering.

I don't do annual vac's either, only every 3 yrs with a 3 yr rabies as req'd by law. I stay UTD on H/W preventative (have put two fosters through HW treatment out of pocket) and flea preventative. They get bathed and brushed regularly. They live a great life.

I am picky about where my fosters get placed, but I am reasonable and listen to people as individuals. I talk to them first, I do NOT send out applications. They aren't applying for a job, they are adopting a family member. A lot can be learned by just talking with and listening to people. People lie a lot easier on paper than they do during a conversation. Anyone half smart can lie on an application and pass a home inspection if they plan ahead.

The city shelters are trying their best to place dogs, and just need to get them out the door to the best possible home. The smaller ones claim they are no kill, or low kill, but the dogs sit and languish in the shelters for months on end, sometimes years. What kind of life is that? There is one shelter here that is very nice, very clean, but has a terrible reputation and low adoption rate. I never even applied to foster for them and have seen a couple dogs over the years I was interested in adopting or fostering, but didn't apply. why? Because after talking to the shelter director one day, she stated that they require personal dogs be brought to the shelter to "meet" the foster or potential adoptee. Nose to nose on a leash. That works for some dogs, sure. But I don't introduce adult dogs like that. They meet through crates and after a day or two, they go on a long walk together. They supervised time in the house seperated by gates. then supervised time together period. This works for us, we have high success rates working with dogs that are unsocialized with other dogs. I won't change my methods. And I won't take my dogs to an animal shelter and expose them to that many dogs and potential illnesses that are common in shelters.

There are so many problems with the private shelters and rescues in this country, it's just sad how many dogs can't be helped because they tie up all their foster homes with long term fosters. I commend them for what they try to do, but it could be done better.


----------



## Avamom

The one good thing about having such an over population of GSD's in need is that if you feel a rescue is too strict you can always go to a *shelter* and adopt--with most shelters having *NO* requirements to adopt except that you pay the adoption fee.

Has everyone seen all the dogs in need in the Urgent section....if a rescue turns you down it is NOT forcing you to go to a breeder. That is a *choice*.

Free will people...there are options, you can go to a breeder, you can go to a shelter or you can go to a rescue. I've done all three. Isn't America great.


----------



## Liesje

Lorelei said:


> I wonder if some of them say, "If I don't rescue this guy, no one will!" and then eventually, they are completely overwhelmed with animals, but they can't turn any away because they want to save them.
> 
> Of course, we all have different reasons for doing things, and some people may start hoarding because of mental instability, but I wonder if it can also start out as a way of trying to help, and then progress into an unhealthy situation. I've never known any hoarders though, so I don't really know, but I could see how wanting to save 'just one more' could progress like that. Also, all the pressure and work must be overwhelming, if you don't have any volunteers, so maybe the stress contributes too.


I think a lot of it starts this way, but there's also the component of trying to fill some void. Like when you watch the show, every single person has had some (or several) traumatic event, and many even admit that hoarding is their way of "coping" or not dealing with it.

In doing so, these people are overlooking the needs of the animals they already have. To me, my current pets are ALWAYS my first responsibility. Yes, I have taken in strays off the street or cats that someone was threatening to dump in a shelter but I never put my current pets in a situation that could be unhealthy or dangerous for them. To be honest I think most animals kept by extreme hoarders are better off in the wild, where they aren't living in their own feces and breeding constantly.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Avamom said:


> The one good thing about having such an over population of GSD's in need is that if you feel a rescue is too strict you can always go to a *shelter* and adopt--with most shelters having *NO* requirements to adopt except that you pay the adoption fee.
> 
> Has everyone seen all the dogs in need in the Urgent section....if a rescue turns you down it is NOT forcing you to go to a breeder. That is a *choice*.
> 
> Free will people...there are options, you can go to a breeder, you can go to a shelter or you can go to a rescue. I've done all three. Isn't America great.


 Agree!

From the article...


> Rescues and shelters now make up a quarter of the estimated 6,000 new hoarding cases reported in the U.S. each year, said Dr. Randall Lockwood, ASPCA's senior vice president of forensic sciences and anticruelty projects.
> 
> "When I first started looking into this 20 years ago, fewer than 5 percent would have fit that description," Lockwood said.


*So that means 75% are NOT rescues/shelters* (and these would not be the municipal shelters run by our county governments). 

I would also venture to guess that this was not the case 20 years ago because the only rescues/shelter homes then were word of mouth local orgs who were not aware of the number of animals in need. The internet has given people a tool for animals to go far and wide to places no one has checked. In other words, these places didn't really exist 20 years ago outside of municipal shelters. 

So back then 95% of hoarders were just regular folks. 

And as said, it is someone who thinks they are a rescue, but aren't that are probably included. 

I encourage people to go to your local city/county shelter and volunteer!


----------



## Rerun

Avamom said:


> The one good thing about having such an over population of GSD's in need is that if you feel a rescue is too strict you can always go to a *shelter* and adopt--with most shelters having *NO* requirements to adopt except that you pay the adoption fee.
> 
> Has everyone seen all the dogs in need in the Urgent section....if a rescue turns you down it is NOT forcing you to go to a breeder. That is a *choice*.
> 
> Free will people...there are options, you can go to a breeder, you can go to a shelter or you can go to a rescue. I've done all three. Isn't America great.


The problem with sending most people to a shelter, such as a big city shelter, is that the dogs have gone through - at best - a basic temperment eval, might have received one set of vaccines and a basic deworming, might be spayed/neutered, and probably DON'T have any level of training at all.

So their options are often perceived as

Option A) small, healthy, cute, friendly puppy
Option B) large, possibly sick, possibly fearful or out of control adult

Yes, nice calm healthy adults can be found. But IME, the large majority of them initially come out of places like animal control very dirty, and either fearful or kennel crazy and bouncing off the walls, frequently have worms of some kind, and who knows about health otherwise.

Now, experienced people know that a good bath and brush, some dewormer, and some basic training will fix most of those problems. But to the average public - they are turned off by the fear of the unknown.

A dog in a foster home has a lot more history coming with him. A puppy from a breeder does as well.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

A puppy from some breeders do. 

Just like people can separate (and should) rescues from brokers, we should also separate breeders from puppy producers.


----------



## Avamom

Rerun said:


> The problem with sending most people to a shelter, such as a big city shelter, is that the dogs have gone through - at best - a basic temperment eval, might have received one set of vaccines and a basic deworming, might be spayed/neutered, and probably DON'T have any level of training at all.
> 
> So their options are often perceived as
> 
> Option A) small, healthy, cute, friendly puppy
> Option B) large, possibly sick, possibly fearful or out of control adult
> 
> Yes, nice calm healthy adults can be found. But IME, the large majority of them initially come out of places like animal control very dirty, and either fearful or kennel crazy and bouncing off the walls, frequently have worms of some kind, and who knows about health otherwise.
> 
> Now, experienced people know that a good bath and brush, some dewormer, and some basic training will fix most of those problems. But to the average public - they are turned off by the fear of the unknown.
> 
> A dog in a foster home has a lot more history coming with him. A puppy from a breeder does as well.


But if the argument is that rescues are turning down really good homes due to being too strict wouldn't a "really good" home be able to handle getting the dog vetted and basic obedience. Getting a puppy from a breeder still requires someone to do vetting and training.


----------



## Samba

I have not found my rescue dogs to be any more work or expense than the purchased ones. Sure it does take some care initially. But, I often take the ones that need that because I know I can care for them. There are many dogs available who are not terribly ill in the shelters.

As far as behavior issues.... really good results with shelter dogs. As far major health issues... overwhelmingly great results from shelter dogs. I guess I have had quite a bit of experience with both 20.00 dollar shelter dogs and dogs from breeding programs ( not puppy suppliers). 

If people are finding appropriate homes even though they appear "strict" in their requirements then I would say they are doing a good job. If no one can pass muster, then there is a problem. 

As far as shelter versus breeder, really dogs are dogs no matter where they were residing before they got to your home. It takes the same abilities generally. Lots of those dogs IN the shelter came from breeders. I think the rescues are really trying to insure that the dog does not experience a "rerun" of that horrible situation.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Sinclair, you are Spock like in your logic! 

Samba totally agree and really enjoyed your first post. 

It is a lot easier to say would have should have could have when you haven't ever fostered. 

AND YES, I know some saying it have. There are always ways to improve systems and each group has different systems.


----------



## RebelGSD

I would not consider someone who requires a trained dog whose vetting and training was done by someone else a really good home. The problem is only deferred in this way, the moment there is a problem with the dog, accidents in the house or behavioral issues, the people who cannot handle the shelter dogs would dump the rescue dog back at the rescue. In our experience, especially families with young or many kids are bad at training dogs, the familiy always comes first, and somehow the rescue dog is not "family' when it comes to veterinary care costs or making time for an obedience class. Our rescue tried to be open minded towards families, but the return rates were way too high in this population. Sadly, dogs that were housbroken and knew basic commands when they were adopted were returned to us a year later out of control, not housebroken etc.
The truth is that a dog that is perfect enough for a family with young kids can be easily placed in any home and will not be sitting in a rescue for months.


----------



## Rerun

Avamom said:


> But if the argument is that rescues are turning down really good homes due to being too strict wouldn't a "really good" home be able to handle getting the dog vetted and basic obedience. Getting a puppy from a breeder still requires someone to do vetting and training.


As said up above, it is the PERCEPTION of the general public in regards to rescue vs shelter vs breeder.

You can not work with the general public if you do not understand the general public.

For example: you can not expect that a couple with 3 kids and a 5 yr old beloved family pet will go to animal control on a Saturday afternoon and adopt an adult german shepherd with no real known history and not even the most basic of training. They have no idea if this dog will walk in the door and make their dog sick with kennel cough that it brought home, or bite one of the kids either through aggression or fear, and then perhaps attack the family cat.

Then they take the dog to the vet for a checkup and meds for the kennel cough, and find out the dog is full of parasites, has moderate to severe hip dysplasia, a serious heart murmur, and the little spot of missing fur the shelter didn't notice is sarcoptic mange, which their other family pet how now been exposed to.

Add to that the lack of training. Training takes time, by the time the dog has been put through obedience courses the kids are scared of it because the 80+ lb male GSD they just adopted jumps on them, nips and herds them, chews up all their toys, barks at them and their friends, and isn't nice to their other dog.

MOST of the general public is going to freak out at the above scenario. They don't want the risk to the family pets, their KIDS, the risk of hundreds or more upfront on a dog they just adopted. Does it happen that way? No, of course it usually doesn't. But it can and does happen, and many people fear something like that. Take that same family, and talk to them about adopting a dog that is currently in a foster home with kids, other dogs, and a cat. The dog has been to a vet, gotten a clean bill of health, has basic leash manners and knows not to jump on the kids, has been started on house training and is crate trained. The above family applies to adopt the foster dog, has good vet references from their vet and good personal references.

But they are turned down because they live in a no-fence neighborhood (they exist) and use an invisible fence, and the rescue feels that although the dog is good with kids,it's too much of a liability to adopt the dog to someone with 3 kids. So they get turned down.

What are their options, as THEY PERCEIVE? I guarantee you, 99% of the time, they will go get a puppy.


----------



## Liesje

I think rescues are often stuck between a rock and a hard place. For one, there is liability and reputation, so they must be careful about screening homes.

Breeders can carefully plan litters so that they can take back dogs if necessary but a rescue may have 10 foster families today and none tomorrow if people quit or the rescue is already over burdened. I've never heard of a breeder suddenly having to take back an entire litter but I've heard of plenty of rescues taking on hoarder or puppy mill cases and suddenly 100 dogs need foster homes.

To be honest most people I meet who are interested in getting a GSD as a pet are very open to rescue/shelter dogs, they just need to be hooked up with a reputable rescue. There are always some who insist on getting an 8 week old puppy but most are flexible on that and don't see the need to go to a breeder.


----------



## selzer

Our shelter is mostly pits and pit mixes like most places I guess. The GSDs in there all have tags on them saying reserved for rescue, except the ones that are so seriously fear aggressive they will not let anyone near their kennels. Then the rescues don't want them either. 

I would not be surprised if there are rescues in our county getting dogs from the shelter and turning a quick profit on them. I am sorry, I know that will get me flamed, but the shelter lets big dogs go for $25. A rescue will charge $200. The dog will be spayed or neutered before being released -- yes my vet does a lot of speuters for them, and I think the fee they care if any is minimal. 

The buyer thinks they are getting a deal, a GSD for $200. The rescue does not have to pay for their breeding stock, getting them health checked, getting them titled, good bloodlines, great facilities, good nutrician. The dog has already been vetted by our shelter, and all they need to do now is find an owner. And I think that maybe they already have someone lined up before even going to the shelter. 

I know that all rescues do not work this way, but not all rescues, just like not all breeders, are reputable. And right now it is so very politically correct to rescue, that a shadey rescue can do this and get thanked by shelters, new owners, and dog lovers everywhere. And if the new owner has issues with the rescue dog, well, they expect to anyway -- the dog was probably abused or neglected afterall. but the rescue does not have to feel responsible. they may or may not take the dog back to sell it again.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

No argument here that it happens like that and it something that people who are trying to do rescue a certain way (the "right" way) are deeply bothered by. It hurts the dogs, and it makes it more difficult to do things properly. Why, if I can get a dog in 2 days from Rescue Y, with no home checks, for only $200, do I have to wait 2 weeks to have my application processed, go through a home check, and have to get a dog that matches me and not the one I want for $300? 

On that note, tomorrow I will be putting $130 on the rescue's bill when I go to pick up enzymes for my EPI foster! Yeeks. I shudder to think how much he's cost (pull fee, boarding - 2 or 3 weeks, paid transport because he turned out to be a runner, doxy, HW tx over $700 including xrays, urinalysis, bloodwork, which I helped pay for so we could use my vet, GI bloodwork, fecals, panacur, tylan, and of course, digestive enzymes since May). So that's a rescue doing it right, and having to fundraise to keep up! And that's a dog that I am what? keeping here instead of placing because I'm too picky, because EVERYONE wants a big black (bicolor but no one knows what that is) GSD with digestive issues who is a little shy, don't they?  Oh, that and I've only gotten 5 inquiries on him! 

Wooo, glad to get that out. :rofl:


----------



## KZoppa

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> No argument here that it happens like that and it something that people who are trying to do rescue a certain way (the "right" way) are deeply bothered by. It hurts the dogs, and it makes it more difficult to do things properly. Why, if I can get a dog in 2 days from Rescue Y, with no home checks, for only $200, do I have to wait 2 weeks to have my application processed, go through a home check, and have to get a dog that matches me and not the one I want for $300?
> 
> On that note, tomorrow I will be putting $130 on the rescue's bill when I go to pick up enzymes for my EPI foster! Yeeks. I shudder to think how much he's cost (pull fee, boarding - 2 or 3 weeks, paid transport because he turned out to be a runner, doxy, HW tx over $700 including xrays, urinalysis, bloodwork, which I helped pay for so we could use my vet, GI bloodwork, fecals, panacur, tylan, and of course, digestive enzymes since May). So that's a rescue doing it right, and having to fundraise to keep up! And that's a dog that I am what? keeping here instead of placing because I'm too picky, because EVERYONE wants a big black (bicolor but no one knows what that is) GSD with digestive issues who is a little shy, don't they?  Oh, that and I've only gotten 5 inquiries on him!
> 
> Wooo, glad to get that out. :rofl:


 
he's a good looking dog. I would be interested in him if we had the room for another dog at this point. I wish you the best of luck with him.


----------



## Zoeys mom

My shelters and rescues here are all the same except the rescues do more testing with the dog. Both require I work less than 6 hrs a day, do not have small children, and neuter my 8 year old male lab. Lets see I only work 4-5 hrs. a day, but since I can't make my kids grow up any faster and refuse to neuter a well behaved senior I can not adopt or foster a dog. I live on over 5 acres of land and provide my dogs with good food, vetting, vaccs, registration with the county, and exercise and train my dogs more than the avg. pet owner.

I don't understand why my home is any less sufficient than some old lady living off her retirement and social security , who can't afford to feed or vet the dog in many cases, can't provide adequate exercise or training, and already has 20+ cats, 15 dogs, and lives in an apartment. This is seriously the kind of home many animals end up at because well intentioned families with children are hardly ever candidates for adoption especially if their kids are under 12 and they work more than 6hrs. a day. Why is it so hard to do a home visit, meet my young children, look at my vet records, and meet the animals I've raised since puppy hood responsibly? I get wanting rescues to go to a great home- I just don't get the number of great homes turned down a year


----------



## selzer

I know that some rescues are reputable. But my point was you cannot always go to the shelter to get a GSD. Not our shelter anyway. Even if they are there, they are reserved for rescues.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Well, there's a bajillion more shelters in OH that have PB GSDs that is for sure! 

Thanks - he's a very sweet boy too.


----------



## KZoppa

Zoeys mom said:


> My shelters and rescues here are all the same except the rescues do more testing with the dog. Both require I work less than 6 hrs a day, do not have small children, and neuter my 8 year old male lab. Lets see I only work 4-5 hrs. a day, but since I can't make my kids grow up any faster and refuse to neuter a well behaved senior I can not adopt or foster a dog. I live on over 5 acres of land and provide my dogs with good food, vetting, vaccs, registration with the county, and exercise and train my dogs more than the avg. pet owner.
> 
> I don't understand why my home is any less sufficient than some old lady living off her retirement and social security , who can't afford to feed or vet the dog in many cases, can't provide adequate exercise or training, and already has 20+ cats, 15 dogs, and lives in an apartment. This is seriously the kind of home many animals end up at because well intentioned families with children are hardly ever candidates for adoption especially if their kids are under 12 and they work more than 6hrs. a day. Why is it so hard to do a home visit, meet my young children, look at my vet records, and meet the animals I've raised since puppy hood responsibly? I get wanting rescues to go to a great home- I just don't get the number of great homes turned down a year


 
i agree. I too dont understand why great homes get turned down when they want to find these great homes for the dogs in their rescue. You can look at dogs all day that might be perfect for your family. they're good with kids of all ages, cats, other dogs, housetrained.... and despite all this, because they have kids, they get turned down... or the yard isnt fenced.... or they play on travelling during the summer in an RV so they can take the dog with and they'll still get turned down. I mean it could be ANY number of reasons you get turned down! I'm a stay at home mom (well til today anyway but i work nights) and even with someone being home most of the day, most of the week... we still got turned down. We even presenting a copy of the rental agreement stating we were allowed to have pets, the deposit had been paid and the owner of the house even allowed what would normally be a restricted breed through a management company. Some rescues are too strict, some are not strict enough while very few are just the right amount of reasonable. I dont agree that SHELTERS should allow animals to be adopted out for anything less than $100. This is a topic i could rant about for a good long while so i'll just stop myself for now.


----------



## RebelGSD

Zoeys mom said:


> My shelters and rescues here are all the same except the rescues do more testing with the dog. Both require I work less than 6 hrs a day, do not have small children, and neuter my 8 year old male lab. Lets see I only work 4-5 hrs. a day, but since I can't make my kids grow up any faster and refuse to neuter a well behaved senior I can not adopt or foster a dog. I live on over 5 acres of land and provide my dogs with good food, vetting, vaccs, registration with the county, and exercise and train my dogs more than the avg. pet owner.
> 
> I don't understand why my home is any less sufficient than some old lady living off her retirement and social security , who can't afford to feed or vet the dog in many cases, can't provide adequate exercise or training, and already has 20+ cats, 15 dogs, and lives in an apartment. This is seriously the kind of home many animals end up at because well intentioned families with children are hardly ever candidates for adoption especially if their kids are under 12 and they work more than 6hrs. a day. Why is it so hard to do a home visit, meet my young children, look at my vet records, and meet the animals I've raised since puppy hood responsibly? I get wanting rescues to go to a great home- I just don't get the number of great homes turned down a year


I live 50 miles from you and these statements simply are not true. Both VGSR and MAGSR as well as many all breed rescues will place dogs with families that have young children. It is not true that everybody requires that you work less than 6 hours, except maybe for puppies, which does makes sense. Puppies simply need to be let out to potty more frequently. All our dogs went to homes with people who work full time and many of the rescue volunteers who foster work full time. Your refusing to neuter is an issue, and most rescues will decline you for that. This is a choice you made and there are consequences to that choice that you will have to live with. While some shelters do reference checks, there are also shelters in Maryland that only require you to show up with the money. There are plenty of shelters nearby, in VA, PA and WV where you can get a great dog for 25 bucks. As to shelters and rescues, there is a huge difference between those.

The comment that most rescue dogs end up with old ladies on retirement with 20+ dog and 15+ cats in an apartment (just because they did not adopt a dog to you) is simply nonsense or just sour grapes.


----------



## BowWowMeow

Here we go again with bashing rescues...:thumbsdown: Perhaps your time would be better spent training or playing with your dog than putting down people who volunteer their time to save the breed you love so much? 

I have rescued every single one of the dogs I've owned over the past 23 years. Some have come from shelters and some from foster homes with breed specific rescues. I have lived in houses with fences, worked full time, etc. and etc. and I still haven't had trouble finding german shepherds to adopt. I have never once been tempted to buy one, even if I got turned down by a particular rescue or didn't hear back soon enough about a dog. 

Rafi is from OHIO and I was blown away by the number of gsds there in shelters and rescues and on Craigslist. I had a lot of choices and was sad that I could only take one.


----------



## selzer

This thread is about people who graduate from rescuing to hoarding. So it is not unrealistic that there would be some ungreatful comments about rescues. 

While there are people and rescues who will spend thousands of dollars and months of time and care to put humpty dumpty together again, there are also those that are not so good. 

Maybe Ohio has a lot of dogs in shelters and rescues. People are out of work, going bankrupt, losing their homes. But it really makes me wonder why our shelter worker drove out of state to purchase a GSD puppy from a pet store in a Pennsylvania Mall.

ETA, this person had thirteen dogs already, all rescues, not GSDs. 

At what point to rescues and shelters start thinking that you are reaching a limit, the brink between pet ownership and hoarding? I mean if you are breeding your own dogs or cats, you can quickly become a hoarder. Otherwise, you would almost have to be some type of rescue or rescuer to get more and more dogs.


----------



## Shavy

selzer said:


> Maybe Ohio has a lot of dogs in shelters and rescues. People are out of work, going bankrupt, losing their homes. But it really makes me wonder why our shelter worker drove out of state to purchase a GSD puppy from a pet store in a Pennsylvania Mall.


Impulse buy maybe? Gift from clueless friend/spouse/parent/lover?


----------



## RebelGSD

selzer said:


> This thread is about people who graduate from rescuing to hoarding. So it is not unrealistic that there would be some ungreatful comments about rescues.
> 
> While there are people and rescues who will spend thousands of dollars and months of time and care to put humpty dumpty together again, there are also those that are not so good.
> 
> Maybe Ohio has a lot of dogs in shelters and rescues. People are out of work, going bankrupt, losing their homes. But it really makes me wonder why our shelter worker drove out of state to purchase a GSD puppy from a pet store in a Pennsylvania Mall.


If you visited the "Urgent" section occasionally, you would be able to see all the German Shepherds in OH, many of which end up dying horrible deaths in gas chambers. Good for your shelter that all of the GSDs make it out. They deserve credit for that instead of being bashed.

As to why the shelter worker bouught a pup in the PA Mall, as opposed to buying from you, for example, have you asked?


----------



## Zoeys mom

Well in my county I can tell you I have been turned down and when asked why it was because my kids were too young and my male was not neutered even though I had no problem neuter/spaying any dog I adopted. My comments are not to bad mouth people who work with rescues and use common sense when placing a dog. My comments come from working with many shelters around here and SEEING first hand who many of these dogs go to. Homes with small children are definitely scrutinized in a manner that makes adoption hard. The thing I always find funny is no one has ever asked about our income- after I say we have kids our registration fee is always taken happily and our phone never rings. I have seen many a dog go to a home where they can not afford basics never mind vet bills and yet these home are used over and over. I have not tried to adopt out of state because normally there is a disclaimer the dog can only be adopted in county so I will admit my searches have been in the Montgomery County area thinking it would be easier.

My opinion again though is not about bashing rescues. It's about my personal experiences in the area. All rescues and shelters are not created equal and from reading this thread that is apparent. I have chosen not to lie on any applications and have always been open to adopting an older dog. Maybe I will have to look into out of area rescues when Henry passes and we are again looking for a companion. My question is how does an out of state adoption work? Would they allow someone to adopt who did not reside in the same State?


----------



## selzer

RebelGSD said:


> If you visited the "Urgent" section occasionally, you would be able to see all the German Shepherds in OH, many of which end up dying horrible deaths in gas chambers. Good for your shelter that all of the GSDs make it out. They deserve credit for that instead of being bashed.
> 
> As to why the shelter worker bouught a pup in the PA Mall, as opposed to buying from you, for example, have you asked?


Boardering on a personal attack there, aren't you?

If the urgent section in this forum has a lot of GSDs from Ohio, that means there are a lot of people in Ohio helping and rescuing GSDs, getting them noticed, getting them advertised, getting them seen. 

Just because some places do not seem to have ANY GSDs listed in the urgent section, that just means people there are not doing the work. Because there are GSDs in shelters all over the country. Ohio is going through a crappy time, and our rescuers are doing even more. 

The lady has 13 hound dogs. I was not going to sell her a puppy, are you insane??? 

I asked her why she went to a pet store, and she gave me an answer. We were in class together. I think she was one of the people that told me they would NEVER go to a breeder. Because, you know, we are such villians. 

All the GSDs do not make it out of our shelter. Those that the rescues reject are considered unadoptable, and are probably put down due to behavior issues.


----------



## RebelGSD

Zoeys mom said:


> Well in my county I can tell you I have been turned down and when asked why it was because my kids were too young and my male was not neutered even though I had no problem neuter/spaying any dog I adopted. My comments are not to bad mouth people who work with rescues and use common sense when placing a dog. My comments come from working with many shelters around here and SEEING first hand who many of these dogs go to. Homes with small children are definitely scrutinized in a manner that makes adoption hard. The thing I always find funny is no one has ever asked about our income- after I say we have kids our registration fee is always taken happily and our phone never rings. I have seen many a dog go to a home where they can not afford basics never mind vet bills and yet these home are used over and over. I have not tried to adopt out of state because normally there is a disclaimer the dog can only be adopted in county so I will admit my searches have been in the Montgomery County area thinking it would be easier.
> 
> My opinion again though is not about bashing rescues. It's about my personal experiences in the area. All rescues and shelters are not created equal and from reading this thread that is apparent. I have chosen not to lie on any applications and have always been open to adopting an older dog. Maybe I will have to look into out of area rescues when Henry passes and we are again looking for a companion. My question is how does an out of state adoption work? Would they allow someone to adopt who did not reside in the same State?


You ARE bad mouthing rescues and shelters in the area. There is a big wide world beyond Montgomery County that is not out of state. I know the Montgomery County shelter very well and work with them regularly, I can ask them about the amount of hours you are allowed to work as an adopter and will do it tomorrow. There are not many shelters around you, there are very few. And what I know is that they will not tell you in what kinds of homes the dogs went, because they have to honor privacy laws. The truth is that you have no way of knowing what kinds of homes their dogs are going to. How do you SEE it first hand? Follow people from the shelter to their home?


----------



## selzer

RebelGSD,

I was working three counties away from where I live. And the fellow living there, asked me about Golden Retriever Breeders. He wanted an older one, and was looking to buy one from a breeder. 

Although you think we hate rescues, I suggested going to a rescue. 

His response to me was that they want to know everything about you and that he did not have to go through that much garbage when he adopted his kid. This was an older fellow. He said he would not go to any rescue organization again. He was an engineer with a very good job in a good company, made lots of money and had a stay at home wife. Would have been perfect for a Golden Retriever. But the rescue being a bit too obnoxios made him that upset.

I think that rescues have to find a balance. They need to realize that these are dogs and sometimes less then perfect homes are better than no homes at all. 

PETA runs shelters. In 2009, the accepted more than 2000 dogs in their shelters. They adopted out 8. 8 individuals matched their criteria and were good enough to get a dog out of one of their shelters. The rest of their dogs were euthanized, because surely it is better to be dead than to go to someone less than our ideal.


----------



## Zoeys mom

No not at all LOL I have many friends who work and volunteer in the places and comment all the time on the decent homes rejected for reasons most find trivial. I also have volunteered in this shelter and seen this for myself. We don't discuss personal names just exchange stories in frustration- dogs go to bad homes and good homes are turned down at the same time. Animals are PTS when a suitable home can not be found quick enough and suitable in itself is sometimes too much. For instance the humane society on Gude drive which is 1.5 miles from my house had a beautiful male shepherd probably between the age of 5-7 yrs. I work from 9:30- 2 or 2:30 and no later- I have kids to pick up. This male was neutered and good with other dogs from what they had seen. I inquired and was told he would not be adopted out to a home with an unaltered male even though there was no history of aggression. My very good friend who is a social worker was also turned down because she works 8 hrs. a day- this boy was older and could easily survive his owner gone up to 8 hrs. a day. Maybe my county is extra strict but yes I have valid complaints here. You are right about there being few shelters here but to me that would be all the more reason to initiate a better way to screen families to help as many dogs as possible.


----------



## Zoeys mom

I don't even mind all the questions I just wish some of these places would take the time to do a home visit even though they are iffy about me. I get resources are thin and sending people out to any interested home is not going to be cost effective- but giving someone a chance may save one of your dogs. I respect the work rescues do immensely and am grateful there are people out there that care enough they want that perfect home- but if a warm bed, food, love, and attention aren't enough what is?


----------



## RebelGSD

selzer said:


> RebelGSD,
> 
> I was working three counties away from where I live. And the fellow living there, asked me about Golden Retriever Breeders. He wanted an older one, and was looking to buy one from a breeder.
> 
> Although you think we hate rescues, I suggested going to a rescue.
> 
> His response to me was that they want to know everything about you and that he did not have to go through that much garbage when he adopted his kid. This was an older fellow. He said he would not go to any rescue organization again. He was an engineer with a very good job in a good company, made lots of money and had a stay at home wife. Would have been perfect for a Golden Retriever. But the rescue being a bit too obnoxios made him that upset.
> 
> I think that rescues have to find a balance. They need to realize that these are dogs and sometimes less then perfect homes are better than no homes at all.
> 
> PETA runs shelters. In 2009, the accepted more than 2000 dogs in their shelters. They adopted out 8. 8 individuals matched their criteria and were good enough to get a dog out of one of their shelters. The rest of their dogs were euthanized, because surely it is better to be dead than to go to someone less than our ideal.


As others have said previously, this is a free country, people who hate rescues can adopt from shelters that ask for nothing but 20 bucks in cash. Or find a dog on craiglist. Or go to breeders. I have sent adopters to breeders when it was appropriate. 

Contrary to what is being said in this thread, perfect dogs, those good with cats, kids and dogs, don't sit in rescue forever, they get adopted quickly and usually they get many applications - so that everybody who does not get to adopt that particular dog can hate the rescue for being declined. 

Apparently PETA cannot be accused of hoarding.


----------



## Zoeys mom

Something we agree on- PETA is the definition of contradiction. I also agree in our free country you can just go to a breeder, and thats what I did; but I would have rather adopted a pooch any day. Our shelter is not a rescue, but definitely charges more than $20. To me taking in an animal thats already here and has lived too long without a forever home is a beautiful way to give back. When the time comes and I can look seriously again I will have to try MAGSR- I have never applied with them because I thought they were strict on adopting in State only.


----------



## KZoppa

Zoeys mom said:


> Something we agree on- PETA is the definition of contradiction. I also agree in our free country you can just go to a breeder, and thats what I did; but I would have rather adopted a pooch any day. Our shelter is not a rescue, but definitely charges more than $20. To me taking in an animal thats already here and has lived too long without a forever home is a beautiful way to give back. When the time comes and I can look seriously again I will have to try MAGSR- I have never applied with them because I thought they were strict on adopting in State only.


 
most rescues wont adopt out of state but i've heard of a few that if a "perfect" home is found in another state, they'll coordinate with another rescue to get the dog in a good forever home.

and PETA is bad IMHO


----------



## AgileGSD

BowWowMeow said:


> Here we go again with bashing rescues...:thumbsdown: Perhaps your time would be better spent training or playing with your dog than putting down people who volunteer their time to save the breed you love so much?


Do you think that there is a possibility that the idea that rescues never, ever should be criticized or looked at too closely might allow really horrible things to be done in the name of "rescuing animals"? Or at the very least, allow them off the hook while they blame us (owners, breeders and the general public) for being "forced to kill animals"? Sorry but shelter and rescue workers are responsible for their actions, just as anyone else is.



RebelGSD said:


> I live 50 miles from you and these statements simply are not true. Both VGSR and MAGSR as well as many all breed rescues will place dogs with families that have young children. It is not true that everybody requires that you work less than 6 hours, except maybe for puppies, which does makes sense.


 So it is perfectly reasonable to turn down good homes because the people work a job with normal 8 hour days? So who is suited to owning a puppy - independently wealthy people or people on unemployment or maybe stay at home moms (or not, depending on if the shelter feels it's ok for families with kids to have a dog). 




RebelGSD said:


> . Your refusing to neuter is an issue, and most rescues will decline you for that. This is a choice you made and there are consequences to that choice that you will have to live with.


You sound like you find this to be perfectly reasonable too. Blanket policies about trivial issues don't do anything to help animals find homes.


----------



## selzer

AgileGSD, great post.


----------



## FredD

selzer said:


> AgileGSD, great post.


I also agree, great post.


----------



## Avamom

If anyone would like to get a GSD and not be asked ANY questions and pay little to zero money, please come to South Carolina or North Carolina. It may be a drive, but make it a weekend road trip, could be fun...even bring the kids.

There are several shelters here that will not care if you have children or unneutered animals. They will not care how many hours you work a day. Some places will vet the dog, but most won't so you will need to bath the dog and take them to the vet.

But, they get lots and lots of GSD's in, MOST of whom do NOT have a rescue hold on them, not because of temperament or any issues, but simply because there are not enough rescues in the state or neighboring states to ever be able to pull them all. The numbers are just too much.

Chesterfield county shelter in SC is a great example. Shelter is run an inmate during the week but volunteers come out on the weekend to try to get any adopted they can. I believe they are free, or maybe $20.00. There is almost always a GSD there weekly. 

AgileGSD, I think rescues should be and need to be looked at closely, I think its a common theme on this board where people point out, do you know where that dog is going...people in general and rescuers alike trying to hold other rescues accountable, asking questions about policies, how many they are pulling, etc. It has often times turned into thread where people get upset that people are judging too much...so it’s damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

I can tell you when it comes to rescues making money on dogs...I am sure there are some that do, because bad people exist in this world. I can tell you, in my opinion, if you are making money at it you aren't doing it right. I hope that the rescue's who do it right outnumber the others because the others are who give rescues in general a bad name.

I do admit I jump for joy when we get a healthy dog from the shelter already vetted for a small fee. It helps to make up for the unhealthy ones we pull. Yes, if you look at that one dog, which we paid $70.00 for that comes already vetted that only spends 3 weeks in a foster home before getting adopted for $250.00 then we made money. But that is because the one before cost $900.00 for kennel cough, heartworm treatment and 5 months of dog food, meds, flea preventative, etc. Or the next "healthy" one that comes out of that shelter fully vetted but still comes down with parvo....

Most rescues have policies they follow, some are strict with no bending, and others are guidelines and will look at them on a case by case basis. I would bet that most have those policies and guidelines due to experience and not because they want to be so strict as to never adopt out their dogs. I think the answer here is to shop around, look outside your area, email or call several places. Don't just make blanket statements and decisions based on one or two situations. I think most states have several GSD rescues or at least several within a state or two; there should be choices and options out there for everyone.


----------



## RebelGSD

Excellent post, Sinclair, as always!

It always bothers me when shelters and organizations get badmouthed without being given the opportunity to respond. Since I know the people at the Montomery County HS very well and know how hard they work to save their animals, I let them know about this thread, in case they have the time to respond. I hope they will, even though it would take away from the already limited resources they have to help animals. Sadly, in these situation it is only one side that has its say. This kind of bashing of a particular breeder or blanket bashing of breeders would never be allowed on this board.


----------



## Good_Karma

I'm completely biased in favor of breed specific rescues. It gives someone who wants a specific type of dog a place to look as an alternative to a breeder (who may or may not be breeding ethically). Full disclosure, I have a dog from a breed specific rescue and a dog from a breeder. Love them both and glad I had the option of both sources for a dog.

I welcomed the home visit. It was advised that we put carpet on our wooden stairs. So we did. Covered up the beautiful larch wood stairs we put together with our own hands. Didn't think twice about it.

You want a dog from a rescue, play by the rules. Or don't play.


----------



## GSDElsa

Alright...well this thread is annoying. Primarily because calling a hoarder a rescuer is beyond me. A hoarder is someone who calls themself a savior to the dogs when they are, in fact, off the deep end. 

One rescue bashing thread after another...all the same thing..."rescues are too picky!!!" And of course if the standards were lowered, we would all be tarred and feathered for being so lax the first time something happens to a dog. Even now...with the oh so neurotic standards...these things do happen.

Does any rescuer want to be the ONE who approved that nasty home? Why don't you screen the people? I'm sure you'd be unpleasantly surprised how often a little digging or pesturing uncovers something not quite right. Oh...like the family most recently when we mentioned that one of our dogs would be going on the home check said NO. Why? Because OUR dogs might be dirty and "bring something into the house." WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. And we're going to let you adopt one of "our" dogs? And this was the "perfect" family on paper....yet they feel "strange" dogs are disgusting and dirty? Glad the truth came out there...

While people are quick to bash, little actually do the work and screen the people. I don't think that people GET that of course YOU think you're family is the perfect family for dog x y or z. Everyone thinks that. 

I wouldn't even say the majority of rescues or even close to it won't adopt to a family without kids. Yes, lots of rescues won't adopt certain dogs to families with kids. A lot will adopt to people who live in apartments. A lot will adopt to military families. But if you come across the ones that don't...they likely have good reason. WHY? Because a family just like yours screwed them. Policies don't magically appear for no good reason. 

And the argument about threads like these being here to keep rescues "in check?!" Please. The only thing I'm seeing here is whining and moaning about rescues being too strict....isn't that the opposite of keeping ourselves "in check?"

Anyone who isn't happy with the adoption requirements of rescues or shelters they are encountering are more than welcome to start their own rescue with their own requirements.


----------



## Zoeys mom

Then how do hoarders acquire so many dogs from shelters and rescues? I think you guys are taking criticism a little harsh. No business is perfect and no unless I were a millionaire I wouldn't want to have the job of funding a decent rescue. I know people aren't throwing gobs of money your way to care for these animals, and every rescue struggles financially to give animals the vetting, food, and attention they can. It's not an easy job and I don't think anyone here has said it was. 

However, the attitude that no one should question why it is hoarders can get animals and some of us average normal people can't is kinda ridiculous honestly. I don't think every home an animal goes to is the home of a hoarder or some animal abuser, and I also don't think every home rejected shouldn't have been. However, you can't honestly tell me there has never been a time you saw a great home turned down either or that some of these wanted animals weren't gassed because of these requirements. I know it happens I've seen it

No one here has said rescues should or could be perfect. No one here expects every animal to get adopted out, and no one here wants to see an animal go to the wrong home. Some of us would just like to know why it is so hard in certain areas to rescue an animal. I don't think my home is perfect nor do I think every dog would do well here- I'm grounded; but I have been open in the past to having shelters recommend an animal that needed a good home based on their knowledge of me and the particular animal.


----------



## GSDElsa

Zoeys mom said:


> Then how do hoarders acquire so many dogs from shelters and rescues? I think you guys are taking criticism a little harsh. No business is perfect and no unless I were a millionaire I wouldn't want to have the job of funding a decent rescue. I know people aren't throwing gobs of money your way to care for these animals, and every rescue struggles financially to give animals the vetting, food, and attention they can. It's not an easy job and I don't think anyone here has said it was.
> 
> However, the attitude that no one should question why it is hoarders can get animals and some of us average normal people can't is kinda ridiculous honestly. I don't think every home an animal goes to is the home of a hoarder or some animal abuser, and I also don't think every home rejected shouldn't have been. However, you can't honestly tell me there has never been a time you saw a great home turned down either or that some of these wanted animals weren't gassed because of these requirements. I know it happens I've seen it
> 
> No one here has said rescues should or could be perfect. No one here expects every animal to get adopted out, and no one here wants to see an animal go to the wrong home. Some of us would just like to know why it is so hard in certain areas to rescue an animal. I don't think my home is perfect nor do I think every dog would do well here- I'm grounded; but I have been open in the past to having shelters recommend an animal that needed a good home based on their knowledge of me and the particular animal.


It quite simple. They go to the shelters (trust me, they KNOW who they are) the a of the hand over the money variety. Wam Bam Thank you man. You could go to those shelters and get a dog too. I can guarantee that these "hoarder" are not getting their dogs from well respected rescues or even well respected shelters.


----------



## Zoeys mom

You are probably right- I didn't think of it that way...thank you


----------



## RebelGSD

Interesting how those who are the loudest in attacking rescues are most often those who have never successfully rescued and placed a dog (one of those in this thread had her rescue end up in a heartstick shelter after getting it returned several times, hardly and expert on how good adoptions are done). However they all know better what and how those who are doing should be doing it. As to taking cristicism better, maybe those declined for adoption could show a good exampe. There was once the interesting turkey cooking rescue bashing thread.

This board used to have a great, active rescue section. Posts like this and the constant rescue bashing which is tacitly approved by the leaders of the board gradually harassed away the people who actully rescue dogs. Nowadays, there are days with no posts in the rescue section. This is an accomplishment to be proud of.


----------



## GSDElsa

RebelGSD said:


> \
> 
> This board used to have a great, active rescue section. Posts like this and the constant rescue bashing which is tacitly approved by the leaders of the board gradually harassed away the people who actully rescue dogs. Nowadays, there are days with no posts in the rescue section. This is an accomplishment to be proud of.


I haven't been active much on there last few months. There's a reason.....


----------



## Dainerra

If it's the person I believe you are talking about, the dog wasn't "her" rescue. Someone dumped the dog on her doorstep. She had a limited amount of time to find the dog a home due to restrictions on the number of pets you can have on a military base. 

I think the argument isn't against rescues, it's against all or nothing policies. Yes, time is limited, but shouldn't these things be handled on a case-by-case basis? Active people who happen to not have a fenced yard, but plan to do lots of activities with their dog, are declined in favor of people who have a fence and plan to just let the dog "exercise himself". Some things just aren't logical


----------



## Zoeys mom

Actually I have successfully adopted 2 dogs before having children and my unaltered male lab. I am also not sure how I am not showing a good example nor have I EVER said I could do it better. As a matter of fact I have said the opposite. I couldn't run a successful shelter or rescue. I do not and will not in my foreseeable future have the resources to do so, and I am thankful for people like you that offer your money and time to help animals in need.

I just can't believe you can't admit you have seen good homes passed up or that sometimes you don't question some rescue requirements, or in some cases the lack of. I am new here and am not aware of past rescue bashing, but how many times do I need to say I am not personally attacking you or making blanket statements about EVERY shelter and rescue in the US. I'm not even bashing my local shelter just sharing my personal experience with them. I adopted 2 dogs from this same shelter before having kids and getting my lab. I have not moved since then and do not make less money- the only thing stopping me is my kids and male senior. I find this ridiculous and I'm sorry your taking this as an attack on all rescues- it's just not I also don't believe I am personally responsible for harassing people into not posting dogs in need. I guess I have missed similar threads and in no way want to disrespect or take away from the work you do


----------



## RebelGSD

What do you think where the dogs in rescue come from, they are dumped on us by people who know everything better.

My current foster Dora was left behind by a military person when he lefdt overseas, alone in the empty house, filthy. I spent $400 vetting her. I don't plan to keep her but I did have her spayed and paid for that out of pocket. Even though I don't plan to keep her does not mean that I will let her end up in a shelter if the adoptive family returns her.

My other foster was adopted by one of the "perfect homes" with children who loved him soooooooooo much. He served as the toy of the season for the kids. The 8 year daughter carried him around every waking hour (he is 12 lbs) like a stuffed toy. The mother decided to return him because she was afraid that he will scratch the daughter's face because she is so "hands on". They refused to let the puppy run on the ground they preferred to return him. And he will never go to a 'loving great home with children" again.


----------



## RebelGSD

Zoeys mom said:


> Actually I have successfully adopted 2 dogs before having children and my unaltered male lab. I am also not sure how I am not showing a good example nor have I EVER said I could do it better. As a matter of fact I have said the opposite. I couldn't run a successful shelter or rescue. I do not and will not in my foreseeable future have the resources to do so, and I am thankful for people like you that offer your money and time to help animals in need.
> 
> I just can't believe you can't admit you have seen good homes passed up or that sometimes you don't question some rescue requirements, or in some cases the lack of. I am new here and am not aware of past rescue bashing, but how many times do I need to say I am not personally attacking you or making blanket statements about EVERY shelter and rescue in the US. I'm not even bashing my local shelter just sharing my personal experience with them. I adopted 2 dogs from this same shelter before having kids and getting my lab. I have not moved since then and do not make less money- the only thing stopping me is my kids and male senior. I find this ridiculous and I'm sorry your taking this as an attack on all rescues- it's just not I also don't believe I am personally responsible for harassing people into not posting dogs in need. I guess I have missed similar threads and in no way want to disrespect or take away from the work you do


Successfully adopting your own dog is one thing. Rescuing a dog that is not your pet and taking resposibility for it for the rest of the animal's life, even when returned, is a whole different ballgame.
Adopting two dogs does not make you an expert on how rescue should be done.

Maybe you need to reread the nasty blanket stuff and badmouthing you posted about the rescues 
and shelters in your area (which is incorrect) in your first several posts. It is sad that you are incapable of seeing how you discredited the work of people who do a lot for dogs and care. 
The rest of us can read all your posts and the many smilies won't change the truth.


----------



## Zoeys mom

I guess everyone that does not think every rescue is perfect is disrespectful because they do not agree with you. I guess your right every loving home with children is really just a blanket statement for "will treat your dog like a toy and then send it back when they are bored or sick of getting scratched". You just proved my point thank you very much for being honest. 

Again in my past posts I said I know for a fact people without the means to exercise and financially support a dog have been given a dog because they look better on paper IN MY AREA. Not that every home my shelter adopts to is bad, or that all shelters and rescues suck. People who can read my posts probably get that though. I do think cases should be looked at closely for what they are in real life and not based on a bad similar case you experienced in the past. Your exact words about the loving home with children proves my point- situations like this one have created an unfair bias for people like me.


----------



## spiritsmom

Seeing that show on tv about animal hoarding, I know one was a cat rescue with WAY too many cats. Just here on this board since I have been on here there have been 2 well known (and well respected at the time) rescuers who turned into hoarders with dead, dying, sick animals removed by animal control. People and shelters sent them dogs all the time. I know I was one of the people always applauding their rescue efforts, privately and publicly. I am sure neither intended for things to go the way they did - they just got overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of dogs needing help and felling like if they didn't step in the dog would die. I have known a local all breed rescue for several years and she is bordering on what you would call a hoarder - she no longer lets people into her house and does adoptions now in parking lots as no one is allowed into her home. It would not surprise me if I saw her on the news sometime in the future. But she does vet her dogs and takes as good care of them as she can - her foster homes seem to be possible hoarders-to-be as well. They just seem to have too many dogs. I am not close enough to her to really push her and I am not going to send AC out to check on her but I do keep an eye on her as do a few other people who have concerns as well.


----------



## RebelGSD

Honestly, our rescue avoids dealing with applicants who badmouth rescues, especially the one they volunteer for, and come in with a bad attitude. These people end up being trouble on the long run, as adopters and fosters, based on many years of experinece. The "peeing in the pot" attitude is not welcome in ours and many other rescues. Yes, it is a blanket statement. We avoid such individuals, kids or no kids, military or no military. You are welcome to consider it a blanket policy and bias.

As to the pup, he had several applications> Had I placed him into a home without children (which he adores), he would be in a forever home now. Placing him into a home with children was not in his best interest and i made a bad choice for him - I wanted to give a family with children a chance. It was a mistake and I will not make it again. Luckily he has a place to stay and did not end up in a kill shelter. After too many returns and problems with families with children, we have a bias against them, absolutely. And these discussions just increase the bias.


----------



## AgileGSD

RebelGSD said:


> Interesting how those who are the loudest in attacking rescues are most often those who have never successfully rescued and placed a dog (one of those in this thread had her rescue end up in a heartstick shelter after getting it returned several times, hardly and expert on how good adoptions are done).


 I've taken in and rehomed my share of dogs, quite a few ferrets and several cats. All but a couple I placed without the help of any rescue organization, paying for their care out of my pocket. One dog I placed in a home that was turned down by a national breed rescue because they didn't have a fence. I saved that dog from being shot because after her owner died, she was passed around to family members and none wanted her. She never had a good life until I took her in and found her a home. I screened the homes, followed up on references and kept tabs on them. I would've taken them back and had them sign a contract saying so but it was never needed. I did not however, decide who was a suitable home and who wasn't based on trivial matters such as having a fence...or not, having a dog door...or not, having an intact pet...or not, etc because to do so would have been very short sighted.

I also volunteered quite a bit of my time giving free behavioral counseling at a local shelter to try to keep dogs in homes. This same shelter would have turned me down for adoption if I didn't know them, based solely on my intact dogs, without ever bothering to give it a second thought.



RebelGSD said:


> However they all know better what and how those who are doing should be doing it.


 It only takes reasonably looking at the situation to see that blanket policies of who can or can't have a dog aren't helping dogs get into homes. I'm not "bashing rescue" but I am suggesting that perhaps not all rescues and shelters are doing everything they can to stop killing animals. The ones who are - that's great, this thread obviously doesn't apply to them 

But if you want an experienced person telling you this:

Turn Your Shelter Upside Down: Turn Your Shelter Upside Down : Nathan J Winograd



RebelGSD said:


> After too many returns and problems with families with children, we have a bias against them, absolutely. And these discussions just increase the bias.


 Some of my 4H dog club kids have adopted shelter dogs. One of those dogs will probably be a C-ATCH in the next year. Kids and dogs can be a great combination


----------



## selzer

I would think that a family with children would be better off getting an adult dog from a reputable rescue. The reputable rescue would ensure the best match between the family and the dog. And they would have fostered the dog long enough to know whether the dog seems ok with children or not. 

But if rescues do not want to deal with families with children, then that leaves shelter, petstore, breeder for them to obtain a puppy. Go to a shelter. Yeah, well, as I said, our shelter has all the dogs of our breed reserved for rescue, so they would be out of luck here. And evenso, a shelter usually does not have the animal long enough for the animal to become relaxed enough to show its true nature. I think for a family with kids to get adult dogs out of shelters is terribly risky.

So if the breeders all take on the same attitude as the rescues -- yes I have had a bad experience selling a puppy to a family with children. If I used that one experience to push me to steer away from families with kids, then that leaves pet stores for families with kids to go to to get a puppy.


----------



## Zoeys mom

You assume a home with no kids=forever home? I just really don't understand your line of thinking at all. Plenty of parents take the time to train their kids on how to behave with animals. Your right about their being some nightmare parents out there that cave to their kids saying I want a dog and get one without doing any research, training, or teaching their kids proper dog etiquette; but that is not every home with children in it. Kids should grow up with dogs- it teaches respect, compassion, responsibility, and work ethic.


----------



## GSDElsa

It only takes reasonably looking at the situation to see that blanket policies of who can or can't have a dog aren't helping dogs get into homes. I'm not "bashing rescue" but I am suggesting that perhaps not all rescues and shelters are doing everything they can to stop killing animals. The ones who are - that's great, this thread obviously doesn't apply to them [/QUOTE]

Well, of COURSE there are bad rescues and bad shelters. No one was ever saying there isn't. Oh, and let's not turn the blame for "killing animals" back on the rescues. Nothing makes my blood boil more than that. I don't care if it's a bad rescue or shelter...its *NOT THEIR FAULT THE DOGS DON'T HAVE A HOME*. 

Very few rescues have blanket policies. Funny how people always talk about how "ALL the rescues and shelters in my area...." do not allow military, do not allow kids, must have a fence. Yet in reality...I know very few rescues that DO have those blanket policies. So they are whining and complaining yet do not go to the rescue 2 counties over that does adopt to people that fit their requirements. 

Most rescues do not base their work off quantity. Fosters and rescues take the animals in their homes very seriously. If they want to be picky...WHO CARES?? If they only rescue one dog a year because they are so stringent...WHO CARES?? The thing is Joe Blow and Jane Doe do not run said rescues. If said rescue has had one too many bad experiences and they want to only adopt to royalty...then so be it.

And as an aside...reputable rescues often have NUMEROUS people inquiring about the good, healthy dogs (I'll tell you right now...a couple dozen on the last 2 fosters before they were even "available for adoption"). It's not a matter of being so picky you can't get dogs adopted. The dogs with behaviorial or health issues sit around because no one--good are bad--is interested in them. It's ludacrious to think that most dogs are sitting around with dozens of families waiting to adopt them that can't get approved by the evil rescue. It's simply NOT FACT.

It's just funny, because before I volunteered I had absolutely NO problem finding a rescue would adopt to us. Without a fence at the time. Without kids, but with plans to have kids in the very near future (actually put that on the application--getting a dog that is good with kids was of the utmost importance). We both work full 8 hour days. No prior GSD experience. NO PROBLEM. NONE. In fact, now that I can access our database, I can see we were more or less seen as "ideal" candidates. WITH ALL THOSE THINGS. 

It's YOUR job to sell yourself. If you're flippant, have a bad attitude, seem like you're not being completely frank, if your references (vet or person) badmouthed you (trust me, it's happened)...oh, I'm sure you were denied for "lack of a fence." And it's YOUR job to screen and find rescues that will adopt to people that meet your criteria. Stop whining and move on to another one. A lot of rescues will even do out of state adoptions if they have rescue "contacts" in your area. Whining and crying about "not being able to adopt" is simply a cop out. Bottom line.


----------



## AgileGSD

GSDElsa said:


> Well, of COURSE there are bad rescues and bad shelters. No one was ever saying there isn't. Oh, and let's not turn the blame for "killing animals" back on the rescues. Nothing makes my blood boil more than that. I don't care if it's a bad rescue or shelter...its *NOT THEIR FAULT THE DOGS DON'T HAVE A HOME*.


 What happens to dogs in their care is up to them though.



GSDElsa said:


> Very few rescues have blanket policies. Funny how people always talk about how "ALL the rescues and shelters in my area...." do not allow military, do not allow kids, must have a fence. Yet in reality...I know very few rescues that DO have those blanket policies.


 Do you feel most rescues/shelters would be ok adopting a dog to a home with intact dogs?



GSDElsa said:


> Most rescues do not base their work off quantity. Fosters and rescues take the animals in their homes very seriously. If they want to be picky...WHO CARES?? If they only rescue one dog a year because they are so stringent...WHO CARES?? The thing is Joe Blow and Jane Doe do not run said rescues. If said rescue has had one too many bad experiences and they want to only adopt to royalty...then so be it.


 The problem is that such an attitude does poorly impact the general public's idea of rescue/shelters in general. No one but rescue people see these things as reasonable. The general public are pushed to adopt rescue dogs through media and even peer pressure. They are told that thousands of dogs are dying because there aren't enough homes for them. So they find a dog on petfinder, get very excited about the dog, meet the dog and fall in love only to find out the shelter won't adopt to them for some trivial reason. The average person at that time is going to be soured on adopting a dog and think that maybe all the push about saving dogs is BS. They are going to tell their friends about their experience and that is going to have an impact on their opinions of getting a rescue dog too. People have a tendency to generalize. Just like shelters/rescues generalize about owners with kids/fences/dog doors/jobs/intact animals and the public will tend to generalize about rescues after a bad experience. 




GSDElsa said:


> It's YOUR job to sell yourself. If you're flippant, have a bad attitude, seem like you're not being completely frank, if your references (vet or person) badmouthed you (trust me, it's happened)...oh, I'm sure you were denied for "lack of a fence." And it's YOUR job to screen and find rescues that will adopt to people that meet your criteria. Stop whining and move on to another one. A lot of rescues will even do out of state adoptions if they have rescue "contacts" in your area. Whining and crying about "not being able to adopt" is simply a cop out. Bottom line.


 The people I know who have been turned down for having intact dogs are not flippant nor do they have bad attitudes. And there was no way their references bad mouthed them - the shelters didn't even get that far! Same for the person who was turned down by a national rescue for not having having a fence. I spoke to their references myself and they all agreed this was a good home, very experienced with the breed.


----------



## RebelGSD

Threads like this make me wonder why I am doing it, I could certainly do many easier and pleasant things with my time and money. The volunteers from our rescue who read this thread certainly agree: if they had not bias against certain classes of applicants, they certainly do after reading this thread. In the future we will refer them to selzer and AgileGSD since they do this so much better than we do - and everybody will be much happier. If you PM me your information, I will be happy to send those applicants that we as the "bad rescue" decline, your way. Problem solved.


----------



## Zoeys mom

I am sure there are better things you could be doing with your time and money but I am still shocked you are so defensive about the matter. A bias against a certain class of people is discrimination and for you to think no one should question that is ludicrous. It takes all kinds I know, but seriously your attitude about rescue is what gives rescues a bad name....not the other way around People have a right to be looked at as individuals and not lumped into categories of worthy and not worthy based on a characteristic of their life. The only characteristic I can see being exempt is past animal abusers or hoarders. To think every home with kids is not suitable for pet ownership is sick. Did you not grow up with pets?

I get you work a thankless job and expend time and money for very little in return. Whether you think I appreciate people like you or not I absolutely do. One rescued animal to a forever is huge. I don't think rescues should just be about quantity of adopted animals, but quality to avoid those animals ending back up in the system. Without rescues or shelters animal cruelty cases would rise and more homeless animals would be on the streets- there is no question in my mind rescues do more harm than good. However, I am not going to have someone tell me it is okay to disqualify an entire class of people from adoption- it's not. I also don't find the excuse there are other options out there for pet ownership viable. My two dogs are from breeders sure, but should every home with kids be made to go through a breeder when there are plenty of needy dogs out there?


----------



## BowWowMeow

This thread is really unbelievable. Breeders and individuals are bashing rescues because rescues standards for adoption are too high? And because they take all of the "good" dogs out of shelters? I wonder what your agenda is in painting rescue with such a crappy brush? There are far more irresponsible breeders than responsible breeders--does that mean that ALL breeders are bad? 

Of course rescues have speuter requirements. We have a pet overpopulation problem in this country! And of course they check references, do home checks and make sure you the time and financial resources to care for a dog. They don't want to get the dog back 2 weeks to 5 years later because "they're too expensive," "they shed too much," "they require too much time," "they grew too big," "we don't have time anymore," "our yard is too small," "he doesn't like our new puppy," "she's too old and smells," or whatever other lame reason people give when they abandon their dogs at shelters, pounds and to rescues every day. 

Rescues absolutely must be held accountable. Every animal in their care should be properly cared for and each one adopted out responsibly, on a contract that protects the dog's welfare. Although it may look like policies are iron clad, many reputable rescues make decisions about homes on a case by case basis and work hard to match the right home with the right dog. 

A few years ago I turned down a person who applied for a foster dog I had. After speaking extensively with this person and checking their references I decided they would not be a good home for my foster dog as they were a single parent, had a young child, worked full time and weren't interested in outdoor activities. 

The rescue I was working with at the time allowed the foster homes to process the apps and make the final decision on adopters. They decided to allow this individual to adopt two other young dogs from the rescue. About 6 months later both dogs came back untrained and unhappy. They had been totally neglected because the person had no time to spend with them and believed feeding them and letting them out in the back yard every day was enough. 

That person probably thought I was prejudice against single parents of young kids who worked full time but I adopted my foster dog out to a single parent who had 2 young kids, worked full time and didn't have a fenced in yard. However, she lived near a really nice walking path, had a very active lifestyle that included her dogs and had a dog loving extended family. My foster dog has thrived in this home and is a very happy and healthy dog. I would never have forgiven myself had he ended up in that other home. 

One final note: if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem. There are quite a few breeders out there who participate in rescue and a great way to find a rescue dog is to volunteer with a reputable rescue and start fostering. Once you're part of the organization you get a much better understanding of why policies exist and you also have the opportunity to make suggestions and changes, in some cases. 

I used to volunteer with a gsd rescue and fostered, did home and reference checks, evaluated dogs and eventually became part of the board of directors. It was quite a learning experience! A couple of years ago one of my fosters (a medical foster with MegaE) came back after 5 years because of a domestic abuse situation. Even though I was no longer with the rescue (or even in the same state) they took him back and found him a new home where he remains, happy and healthy.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Yes, exactly what Ruth said. 

This is very tiring. Demotivating. Thank goodness for great dogs and appreciative adopters who want to work with us.


----------



## Zoeys mom

I happen to agree with your policies they are fair minded. You seem to look at people as individuals and make decisions based on common sense-thats commendable. It's the attitude no home with kids, no fences, or unaltered males is a bad home. Each home should be scrutinized individually before they are labeled unsuitable


----------



## gsdraven

Wonderful post Ruth.


----------



## Good_Karma

Potential adopters should really look at the home visit and screening process as an opportunity to improve the conditions in their home/lifestyle so that any dog they take in will have a better life. You don't have a fenced in yard? Okay, go to Home Depot and spend a couple hundred on stakes and wire.

It's like the state inspections we'd have at work. Many people dreaded it, but the best employees saw it as an opportunity to learn how to do a better job.


----------



## Mary Jane

BowWowMeow said:


> Although it may look like policies are iron clad, many reputable rescues make decisions about homes on a case by case basis and work hard to match the right home with the right dog.


With our one experience with adopting one dog, this is what I believe happened. We are away from home more than 8h a day, don't have a fence, don't have GSD experience, and live outside the distance limit the rescue imposed. But our dear Wolf needed a quiet home like ours, I really needed a companion dog like him, and my husband wanted a running buddy. 

For us that rescue group was literally a God-send. Wolf came with perfect house manners and a shy disposition-that can be modulated with appropriate application of cheddar cheese and good sense. It is impossible to thank the rescue and foster adequately for the gift we received and the judgment they showed in bestowing this gift.

Mary Jane


----------



## Avamom

Zoeys mom said:


> You assume a home with no kids=forever home? I just really don't understand your line of thinking at all. Plenty of parents take the time to train their kids on how to behave with animals. Your right about their being some nightmare parents out there that cave to their kids saying I want a dog and get one without doing any research, training, or teaching their kids proper dog etiquette; but that is not every home with children in it. Kids should grow up with dogs- it teaches respect, compassion, responsibility, and work ethic.


I agree that kids and dogs usually make a great match and I think if most kids grew up with an awareness of dogs and a relationship with a beloved pet we would have less of a overpopulation of mistreated animals in the future. 

However, it is sooo hard to make that judgment from the rescue side...both logically and emotionally. Because honestly, most parents are going to tell you that their kid is respectful of dogs and knows how to be gentle, I mean seriously who is going to tell you that their beloved kid likes to drag the cat around by its hind legs and isn't always so gentle and doesn't always listen when they tell them to stop buggin the dog. And if its a rescue dog that you place and that dog happens to scratch the kid or bite the kid, whether provoked or not, its a *DEATH* sentence to that dog. Most rescues can not adopt a dog with a bite history, that dog will most likely be demanded to be returned and the rescue will either have to make the agonizing decision to put down a dog that in another circumstance would never bite or else keep them in a foster home forever, filling that spot for 10-15 years. Trust me that situation will haunt you for the REST of your life.

Yes, it doesn't always happen...but the fear that it will is PARALYZING when its your foster dog you have nursed back to health and poured your heart into...that chance that it won't be a perfect match with a kid you honestly have to put your faith in that the parents and your observations during the home visit is accurate.

That said, we adopt to homes with children, but it is scary and I understand why some rescues don't. SOME...not ALL. Some just have age limits and sometimes the limit or restriction is just for that particular dog b/c they KNOW the dog would not do well in a household.

I promise you that my experience in the last 6 years working with lots of rescues is that very few have blanket policies and MOST work on a case by case basis. I know that this thread has had many people posting about their experiences with a rescue where they were turned down, flat out...but that is a handful of experiences, its not necessarily the norm.


----------



## sitstay

I agree with Ruth. And like Jean, I am glad that there are adopters out there that understand and support rescues and their procedures and policies.

I just don't understand the level of bitterness directed at rescues that seems to have flourished on this board these past few months. Some of the posters are just bitter in general, but some seem to hold particular bitterness towards rescues and the perceived shortcomings of every/any adoption process.

If someone got turned down by a local rescue for something like having children, or working full time, I would think it would be fairly easy to find another rescue to work with. If someone is getting turned down by multiple rescues...maybe the issues go beyond having children or working full time. 

Maybe too many people think adopting from a rescue is like walking into a retail store and being able to walk out with what you want, when you want it. "I want a dog, you have a dog I want available for adoption, give me the dog". It just doesn't work like that with most rescues and many shelters.

For my own rescue efforts, the only hard and fast rules I have are 1) a home visit, 2) references , 3) the adopter MUST meet the dog in person before finalizing the adoption and 4) the dog must be spayed/neutered prior to leaving my home. 

I have some general rules, such as not adopting to military families and not adopting into homes with intact animals, but I am open minded and will try to take each adoption on a case by case basis. I understand that there are exceptions. I might tell the 26 year old living in a condo "No" on the six month old GSD, but that same person might be the first call I make three months later when I get in an 8 year old that is a better match. And I would certainly hope that in the mean time that 26 year old hasn't gotten on the internet and declared to everyone in the world that all rescues refuse to adopt to 26 year old applicants living in condos, and that they have now been forced to buy from a BYB.
Sheilah


----------



## AgileGSD

sit said:


> I just don't understand the level of bitterness directed at rescues that seems to have flourished on this board these past few months. Some of the posters are just bitter in general, but some seem to hold particular bitterness towards rescues and the perceived shortcomings of every/any adoption process.


 This is no more bitterness towards rescues/shelters in general than saying "not all breeders are good" is bitterness towards breeders in general. Some shelters/rescues have awesome success rates, great people skills, great community outreach programs, reasonable adoption requirements, helpful volunteers and are very welcoming to would-be adopters.

But I can't help to feel that many others are shooting themselves in the foot with this elitist attitude that seems to have become more common in recent years. It is often a very us and them sort of scenario when it comes to rescue/shelter workers and the public/would be adopters.


----------



## selzer

I made some very nice comments about rescues in this thread. But I have been bashed for a few opinions that I have and experiences that have been relayed to me. While I HAVE rescued dogs, I personally have never worked with a rescue.

I have encouraged others to go to rescues, but this thread has made me believe that that was probably rather pointless. 

I think people who want a dog, will find someone to sell them a dog. I turn down buyers, buyers who tell me about how their last seven dogs were retarded, buyers who tell me how they duct taped rotting meat to their dogs muzzle to get it to stay out of the trash. Buyers who wanted two female puppies. Buyers who were bad matches for the puppies I had. I know they went out and found a pup for cheaper and bought it from some BYB or went to a pet store. 

I would not expect any rescue to sell any of these individuals a dog. 

But there are other people that I refer to rescues, people who would be better off with an older dog, who are looking for an older dog, who could probably provide a good home to an older dog. 

I do not have a blanket statement of types of people to turn down. I have had more success than failure sending pups out to homes with kids. I have made a mistake as well, and I think I knew that it was a problem from the begining. But I will not use that one incident to refuse to consider people with kids again. Perhaps, I just feel a little more willing to go with my gut. 

What is so disgusting on this thread is that if you do not venerate any one who has done anything in the way of rescue, then you will be slammed. Why is that? These people, say "oh poor us, makes us not want to do it." If you do not want to rescue, then get out of it. ANY charity is the same. If you are doing it because you feel you have to, you must, no one else will, etc, then just stop. 

Charity comes from within. If you are doing it because you feel obligated to, then it isn't helping you or whoever you are helping. Oh someone has a meal, or some dog finds a new home, but everyone comes away feeling put upon and forced. 

People who are doing it because they love dogs, or they love people and they want to help. THOSE people do not need a board of strangers typing away at their keyboards to validate and honor them. They receive the rewards of what they are doing by seeing their pups in new homes, and seeing people enjoying those puppies. 

I think that rescuers can burn out. Teachers burn out. Pastors burn out. Breeders can burn out too. When they do, they need to get out. Our best work cannot be done if our heart is not in it.


----------



## Zoeys mom

Great post Selzer I completely agree with you and appreciate you too understand not all homes with kids are a death sentence for the dog


----------



## selzer

Thank you, but I agree that if you do not feel capable of assessing a dog to go to a home with small children, it is better to turn all of them down.

When I meet people with their kids, I can see how they interact with their kids, and how their kids interact with dogs. I can see how responsible, and calm the parents SEEM to be. I can get a good opinion or a bad opinion. 

But there are things that I cannot see. I cannot see how many other kids will run through these people's lives, friends and extended family members. 

And I am working with an advantage. I am working with an eight week old puppy who has met some small children, but is mostly an open book. If that puppy is raised by calm and responsible people with ordinary kids that show a level of respect, than I can feel relatively certain that the puppy will grow up seeing the kids running in and out of their household's life.

A rescue dog, might be a puppy, but is often an older dog. It might get along fine with little girls, and older girls and boys, but could have had a majorly bad experience with small boys. The rescue would have had to put in a lot of work on the dog to find out what types of people the dog seems comforatable with. And that would be AFTER the dog reaches a level of comfort with its foster situation. 

Just because the dog comes from a family with four kids does not mean he will be ok with kids. There are a lot of variables.

For me, if the puppy starts acting up at eight or ten months, the family is already attached and takes it to a trainer and gets it into classes which they promised from day one to do. 

For a rescue, the dog is already 18 months or 2 1/2 years old, and the stakes are greater. 

So, I do understand why some rescues might be leery of homes with kids. Finding out a dog you placed with someone bit someone's kid would be really hard to manage.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

The kid thing is scary. Think about what you are doing - could be awesome, could be Looking for Mr. Goodbar (well, not that bad). I don't adopt to homes with kids for my personal fosters because they do not have 24-7 exposure to children. I do not know how they would react to those circumstances. Rescues I've fostered with have foster homes with kids and can say that a dog is good (or not) with it. And like selzer said it's not just the kids in the home, it's the visiting kids, the kids at the soccer game, etc. 

I just want to say that no one here is asking for a parade, or a pat on the back even, but that when what you do (even if not you personally) is constantly second guessed, put down, and people are so critical it is beyond being "not venerated" and of course people are going to try to defend what is being done. Not sure why that can't happen? If someone criticizes isn't the tendency to try to explain? 

And believe me, if someone got in touch with any of the rescue people who have posted here, about a dog in their care, they would get positive and courteous responses throughout the process. They might not get a dog, or the dog they want, but they would be looked at and treated fairly and well. 

BTW - I made a rather facty reply about the article a ways back. No one wanted to discuss?


----------



## Zoeys mom

I definitely don't think every dog is going to do well in a kid home- some dogs just don't tolerate kids especially older ones who weren't raised with them. Some homes aren't strict about imposing rules for handling a dog with their own kids and visitors, but many are. For every bad apple home there is a good one with or without kids. If you aren't comfortable adopting a certain dog to a kid home that makes sense since you have fostered and know a good deal about the dogs temperament, but to cancel out all homes with kids is just as bad as adopting out that dog you know hates noise to a kid home. There has to be some level of personal judgement per case and not a broad generalization made about all kid homes.

Rescues and shelters have a job I can't completely fathom. I realize there are more dogs than homes when your looking at older dogs vs. a puppy. I know there isn't the necessary resources to delve deeply into every applicant and I get it's easier to just say no this or that to try and minimize unsuccessful adoptions. It just seems more and more homes are being turned down while shelters overflow with animals who just want a place to call home


----------



## selzer

Ok, I am going to pick on a newbie in another thread. Whether trolling or not, he has said some pretty nasty stuff about shelters and rescues. Oh, and a breeder too, but have to admit, that the breeder sounded pretty out there. 

Anyhow, in one of the later posts, he is talking about a husky he got on Craig's list. It is four years old and he had it for four days. He said it was very dominant and had nipped them and then he goes on to say the lady took the dog back because with the baby and all (10 months old), she would be liable if something were to happen. 

This guy doesn't seem knowledgeable at all about dogs, but he has a good grasp on the legal system. And even if people do not WIN, a rescue and or their fosters could be out plenty of money and time defending themselves in court if something awful were to happen.

This is a sue-crazy society. If someone does not have children so they can get an accurate picture of how the dog responds to them, they maybe should not adopt to families with kids, particularly if they are not comfortable with it.

I mean, you cannot take the dog out a few times and measure his reaction around a couple of kids and say, yupp good with kids.


----------



## Narny

I am just blown away by this thread. I am new here and am just settling in.. but is this kind of thing normal? Its really a shame in my opinion.

I was SHOCKED to read that about PETA. God how I hate that org. And I was totally unaware until tonight that my kids could pose a problem for adopting from a rescue. 

I once tried to find a home for a dog I cared for. She was the SWEETEST dog I had ever known. I had cared for her nursed her loved her protected her. But I had to find her a new home... I didnt really have a choice. So I posted a VERY detailed ad on Craigslist explaining who she was and how she behaved. I had posted that there would be home visits and contracts and if there was ever a problem she would need to come back. Only one person responded... and they sounded perfect. But they were to far away and wouldn't make the drive. I couldn't make the drive at the time so I was stuck. The problem in my opinion was people saw that I took an interest in my dog and that they weren't just going to show up give some money and go home. IMO most people are lazy. Not all people are and certainly not the fair amount of people who submit to the home visits and questions and what have you that come with adopting from a rescue. **** I have been told that it has been easier to adopt a child than to adopt a dog in some cases.

In the end, I had to call a rescue to help me. They had found my very detailed listing on Craiglist and offered to help first with behavior theropy and when that didnt work they took her in. I was GREATFUL and still am for them. Trying to find a home for my dearly loved and sweet friend was impossible for me. They told me that they had a waiting list for female Springers and that really helped me to trust that she would find a good home. 

I can see why some would be so strict. Do I always agree with it... no not at all. And I dont think, after reading this thread that my husband and I would stand a snowballs chance in **** to get a fostered dog. So since I can not take the risk with my kids to go to a shelter and getting an older dog (which is what I wanted) a puppy sure but not an older dog I am left with what... a breeder or maybe craigslist. God this is depressing. 

So that limits my choices a bit. I'm not really happy about that but it is what it is.


----------



## selzer

hey, breeders are not all bad. We certainly shouldn't depress you. You rescue people think you have it bad, but yours is the politically correct position. People are depressed just thinking about us.


----------



## Narny

selzer said:


> hey, breeders are not all bad. We certainly shouldn't depress you. You rescue people think you have it bad, but yours is the politically correct position. People are depressed just thinking about us.



Sorry I didnt mean to imply that breeders are bad... It was actually the thread that depressed me and thinking about my old dog Ginger. 

Also TRUST ME I would NEVER be consider PC lol I have actually be pushing my husband for us to use a breeder because of our family and the type of dog that would best fit with us. 

The only part about using a breeder that is a bit daunting is making sure we dont pick a BYB.

I was completely against going to a shelter because of temperament checks and the unknown factor but I had started to be ok with going through a rescue... and now thats probably out.


----------



## selzer

When you consider the responsibility of dog ownership and the length of time that the dog will be 100% reliant on you, it makes sense to take the time, and do your research to find the right breeder for you.


----------



## brutus'momma

Narny said:


> The only part about using a breeder that is a bit daunting is making sure we dont pick a BYB.


 
Sorry to interupt (new kid here) what's "BYB"??


----------



## Whiteshepherds

brutus'momma said:


> Sorry to interupt (new kid here) what's "BYB"??


Backyard Breeder


----------



## brutus'momma

Whiteshepherds said:


> Backyard Breeder


Thanks! :blush: i'm a little slow


----------



## Narny

brutus'momma said:


> Sorry to interupt (new kid here) what's "BYB"??


Back yard breeder


----------



## Good_Karma

Narny said:


> I am just blown away by this thread. I am new here and am just settling in.. but is this kind of thing normal? Its really a shame in my opinion.
> 
> I was SHOCKED to read that about PETA. God how I hate that org. And I was totally unaware until tonight that my kids could pose a problem for adopting from a rescue.
> 
> I have been told that it has been easier to adopt a child than to adopt a dog in some cases.
> 
> I can see why some would be so strict. Do I always agree with it... no not at all. And I dont think, after reading this thread that my husband and I would stand a snowballs chance in **** to get a fostered dog. So since I can not take the risk with my kids to go to a shelter and getting an older dog (which is what I wanted) a puppy sure but not an older dog I am left with what... a breeder or maybe craigslist. God this is depressing.
> 
> So that limits my choices a bit. I'm not really happy about that but it is what it is.


Don't hate on PETA, somebody had to protest Lady Gaga's meat dress!

And I am SURE it is much harder to adopt a child than a dog. You don't see people going to China to get pets do you?

Look, don't get all depressed that you'll never be considered as a potential adopter. You might not find the right dog the first visit, or the second, or the tenth. We didn't get the first dog we wanted BECAUSE we didn't have kids and the foster mom thought the dog would be good in a home with kids. "Discrimination" can work both ways.

Jean, I'd throw you a parade any day!


----------



## GSDElsa

Narny said:


> I am just blown away by this thread. I am new here and am just settling in.. but is this kind of thing normal? Its really a shame in my opinion.
> 
> I was SHOCKED to read that about PETA. God how I hate that org. And I was totally unaware until tonight that my kids could pose a problem for adopting from a rescue.
> 
> I once tried to find a home for a dog I cared for. She was the SWEETEST dog I had ever known. I had cared for her nursed her loved her protected her. But I had to find her a new home... I didnt really have a choice. So I posted a VERY detailed ad on Craigslist explaining who she was and how she behaved. I had posted that there would be home visits and contracts and if there was ever a problem she would need to come back. Only one person responded... and they sounded perfect. But they were to far away and wouldn't make the drive. I couldn't make the drive at the time so I was stuck. The problem in my opinion was people saw that I took an interest in my dog and that they weren't just going to show up give some money and go home. IMO most people are lazy. Not all people are and certainly not the fair amount of people who submit to the home visits and questions and what have you that come with adopting from a rescue. **** I have been told that it has been easier to adopt a child than to adopt a dog in some cases.
> 
> In the end, I had to call a rescue to help me. They had found my very detailed listing on Craiglist and offered to help first with behavior theropy and when that didnt work they took her in. I was GREATFUL and still am for them. Trying to find a home for my dearly loved and sweet friend was impossible for me. They told me that they had a waiting list for female Springers and that really helped me to trust that she would find a good home.
> 
> I can see why some would be so strict. Do I always agree with it... no not at all. And I dont think, after reading this thread that my husband and I would stand a snowballs chance in **** to get a fostered dog. So since I can not take the risk with my kids to go to a shelter and getting an older dog (which is what I wanted) a puppy sure but not an older dog I am left with what... a breeder or maybe craigslist. God this is depressing.
> 
> So that limits my choices a bit. I'm not really happy about that but it is what it is.


So why exactly do you not think you'd get a dog through a rescue? No one is actually reading this thread in it's entirety and it's getting rather frustrating. Despite NUMEROUS posts about not all (not even the majority) not adopting to families with kids, families without fences, families who rent, military families, etc...there are a TON that do.

AGAIN PEOPLE! If you strike out with rescue A., research and find one that fits what you need!!! Don't try one that is "too strict" for you and declare that you have tried everything you can and cannot adopt a dog. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of rescues out there...and many that will consider out of state adoptions.


----------



## Narny

GSDElsa said:


> So why exactly do you not think you'd get a dog through a rescue? No one is actually reading this thread in it's entirety and it's getting rather frustrating. Despite NUMEROUS posts about not all (not even the majority) not adopting to families with kids, families without fences, families who rent, military families, etc...there are a TON that do.
> 
> AGAIN PEOPLE! If you strike out with rescue A., research and find one that fits what you need!!! Don't try one that is "too strict" for you and declare that you have tried everything you can and cannot adopt a dog. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of rescues out there...and many that will consider out of state adoptions.


Multiple reasons actually and not all of them would I argue with. For starters my husband and I didnt vet every year. Second we have small children (2 and 7) Third, and I really hope that isnt really a problem but unless the dog has a sensitive stomach for whatever reason we feed the BARF diet. (This I know for a fact will keep us from adopting from at least 3 rescues in our area. But you are right, there are others) Also, our back yard at this time is in the process of being renovated (this is an understandable exclusion to me) 

Like you said, we will try a few of the rescues once the back yard is finished and hopefully we will find one that works, if not then I will simply buy a dog from a good breeder. I dont think either of these options are bad as long as they are done honestly, respectfully and done in the best interest of the animals.


----------



## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Good_Karma said:


> Don't hate on PETA, somebody had to protest Lady Gaga's meat dress!
> 
> And I am SURE it is much harder to adopt a child than a dog. You don't see people going to China to get pets do you?
> 
> Look, don't get all depressed that you'll never be considered as a potential adopter. You might not find the right dog the first visit, or the second, or the tenth. We didn't get the first dog we wanted BECAUSE we didn't have kids and the foster mom thought the dog would be good in a home with kids. "Discrimination" can work both ways.
> 
> Jean, I'd throw you a parade any day!


Glad someone else knows about the meat dress - that reference flew over peoples heads at a meeting I was at! 

Ha! That's right - I forgot about that! And that worked out *perfectly* for both dogs. Thank you for the parade - no clowns please. 

selzer - it's true about the legal stuff and I think that some of the rescues that have blanket no kids under 7 policies have them because they are in areas of the country where they are more likely to be sued than in others. 

And like GSDElsa said, most of the posts about no kids are _not_ coming from people who actually DO rescue. :crazy:


----------



## spiritsmom

I've done my own private rescue occasionally for several years now and I do not have blanket policies other than no chains. That's my one and only, everything else I take on a case by case basis. I do home visits and have an application and a contract - but you really do get a better feel for people when you talk to them on the phone. I have had a couple returned adoptions over the years but they were for reasons that I could not see coming at the time. I have turned people down because I did not feel it would be a good match or they sent up a red flag for me. I will adopt to people with kids, without fenced yards, with intact pets, etc but it all depends on the overall app. With regard to the intact pets - I know the dog/puppy I am placing is already fixed so for me there being an intact pet in the home carries very little weight. Course I do ask why the animal was not fixed, but I know the pet I am placing is 100% guaranteed to never reproduce. If I placed only on s/n contract then I would not adopt to someone with intact pets, but since I don't operate that way it is mostly a nonissue.

Oh and I must add when we were looking to adopt (when we adopted Kuma, who died of parvo) I was turned down by some rescues/shelters which hurt my feelings to be honest (reasons given were I had a 2 yr old child and a baby on the way and also that I had - in their opinion - enough pets). I did adopt Kuma from a rescue, but it was not a good one and they are not in rescue anymore. It was odd, but I really liked the looks of the puppy and once we met him we fell in love despite all the red flags I got regarding the rescue - they did not screen me, adopted out an intact pup and offered zero after adoption support. His fee was $100 and all they had done was given one vaccine from Tractor Supply - please tell me how they were not in it for the money. Litter of 7 pups at $100 each and you have maybe $60 in them altogether. After I spent thousands trying to save him from parvo I contacted them numerous times to ask for the adoption fee back to apply to his vet bills and they never responded to that - I also never got an actual phone number for them, only e-mail addresses and they never gave a phone number despite my asking for one in nearly every e-mail.


----------



## sitstay

GSDElsa said:


> AGAIN PEOPLE! If you strike out with rescue A., research and find one that fits what you need!!! Don't try one that is "too strict" for you and declare that you have tried everything you can and cannot adopt a dog. There are literally hundreds and hundreds of rescues out there...and many that will consider out of state adoptions.


Exactly. Why is it generally accepted that it is a great idea to find just the right breeder, and people are encouraged to meet with and talk to several to find the right fit for your needs, and yet at the same time rescues are expected to provide a "one size fits all service"?

I mean, if someone came on and complained that they went to a breeder who denied them for a puppy because the breeder felt they weren't a good fit, most people would be quick to defend the breeder as responsible and more interested in the welfare of the pups being produced than in making money.

And yet if that same person comes on a complains about a rescue telling them "No", the response is different. Why the double standard? 
Sheilah


----------



## Mrs.K

sit said:


> Exactly. Why is it generally accepted that it is a great idea to find just the right breeder, and people are encouraged to meet with and talk to several to find the right fit for your needs, and yet at the same time rescues are expected to provide a "one size fits all service"?
> 
> I mean, if someone came on and complained that they went to a breeder who denied them for a puppy because the breeder felt they weren't a good fit, most people would be quick to defend the breeder as responsible and more interested in the welfare of the pups being produced than in making money.
> 
> And yet if that same person comes on a complains about a rescue telling them "No", the response is different. Why the double standard?
> Sheilah



I don't think it's a double standard. 

In one situation the breeder is producing puppies and therefor has a responsibility. The responsibility is to place the pups the best possible way so they don't turn up in a shelter one day (which you never know anyway, once the pup is gone, it's gone).

The other situation is that a person wants to RESCUE a dog. A dog that got dumped by other people and the Rescue makes it extremely hard to adopt a dog out. Everybody is saying "Go to rescues before you go to breeders" but some rescues make it so hard that people turn to breeders instead of rescues which defeats the concept.


----------



## sitstay

Mrs.K said:


> I don't think it's a double standard.
> 
> In one situation the breeder is producing puppies and therefor has a responsibility. The responsibility is to place the pups the best possible way so they don't turn up in a shelter one day (which you never know anyway, once the pup is gone, it's gone).
> 
> The other situation is that a person wants to RESCUE a dog. A dog that got dumped by other people and the Rescue makes it extremely hard to adopt a dog out. Everybody is saying "Go to rescues before you go to breeders" but some rescues make it so hard that people turn to breeders instead of rescues which defeats the concept.


But rescues have a responsibility, too. Using the word "purchase" or the word "rescue", it doesn't make it any less important to make the best possible choice for each individual dog. That is every bit the responsibility of the rescuer.

Look, a potential adopter can have the best intentions in the world. But if the home is inappropriate, it is inappropriate. It won't matter to me if they want to RESCUE my foster dog. If they want to tie it out, or keep it a kennel dog out in the yard forever, I am still going to tell them "No". Just like a good breeder should screen potential buyers and turn down a sale to a home that does not fit with what that breeder wants for their puppy, a good rescue is going to turn down potential adopters for the very same reason.
Sheilah


----------



## RunShepherdRun

This thread went off topic with the second and third posts already. The first post was a report about an allegedly growing proportion of hoarders who view themselves as rescuers. The second and third posters connected the pathological condition of hoarding, of not being able to let go when you have to, to adoption requirements of rescue organizations, the letting go of foster dogs to homes selected as the best match for a dog.

The practice of selecting the most suitable home was thus related to the practice of hoarding. I consider making that connection slanderous indeed.


----------



## will_and_jamie

I had that same issue with the Golden Retriever rescue around here in Colorado. I also tried contacting the GSD rescue in Washington State, but when I said my husband is military, I guess that was a red flag, so they never even responded to any calls or emails from me. So, I went and spent over 1K on a GSD pup from a breeder who is now three years old. Our Golden came from a couple in Denver who had two Goldens and chose to breed them once they were three years old. BUT, now we've been an approved foster home for a GSD rescue here in Colorado which is odd. We can be approved to foster, but not to adopt. Just crazy. I know that's off topic and I'm sorry. It's just frustrating, but my dogs are great and we were led to them by not being "approved" and being ignored by rescues. Also, because of our dogs we'd decline OCONUS orders or I'd stay stateside.


----------



## RunShepherdRun

Why don't those who wish to post about 'adoption requirements' start a new thread on the topic? In the discussion forum of the rescue section? Again, it is misplaced in a thread on hoarding.

Depending on what you want, you may want to call it 'discussion of adoption requirements' or 'rant about adoption requirements'. Looks like there are contributors to both ways of approaching the topic.


----------



## RebelGSD

MAGSR placed over 2,252 German Shepherds in the Maryland area since 1999:
www.magsr.org
They do have quite a few blanket policies - and still over 2000 families got their dogs from MAGSR. Is it hard? For all those families it wasn't.
This is the link to the success stories that the familiw who adopted wrote
MAGSR.ORG - Providing Adoption And Rescue Services For German Shepherd Dogs in the Mid-Atlantic Region
The many stories are woth reading as counterbalance to the horror stories about rescues in this thread.
BTW, MAGSR has quite a few blaket policies.Why? As a relatively large rescue they cannot afford to have every volunteer make up his or her adoption criteria. Many of the policies are dictated by liability and insurance coverage. If an individual decides they know better and implement their own rules and then something goes wrong and violates the insurance regulations, who will pay for that? As to them declining great homes and placing their dogs into bad homes, as stated in this thread for all area rescues, the stories speak about the quality of the adoptive homes.

If someone does an occasional individual rescue, as several people have posted here, ad hoc criteria are possible. Ad hoc criteria in a large organization, especially a county Animal Control facility, would lead to chaos and the entire community would soon jump on them.


----------



## onyx'girl

I know of many who foster for the local large rescue, they have 8-10 dogs minimum/some owned some fostered. A few do it for the "donated" food, so they can feed their own for free(they don't care that it is crap food)
This rescue is mostly about pulling dogs from shelters and moving them while profitting. They are "saving lives" but the requirements for adoption aren't very stringent. The fosters aren't screened that thoroughly either(no home checks or reference checks)
To let someone foster over 8 dogs at one time, (not pups) is a bit on the desperate side/bordering on hoarding, IMO.
You can't possibly get to know the dog, or help work out any baggage they carry when fostering so many. 
I know I may get flamed for my opinion as many think it would be better to be in a foster home vs the shelters kennel. 
I don't know...a rotating crate/kennel=noise, cleanup amounts to about the same thing.


----------



## selzer

Good_Karma said:


> Don't hate on PETA, somebody had to protest Lady Gaga's meat dress!
> 
> *And I am SURE it is much harder to adopt a child than a dog. You don't see people going to China to get pets do you?*
> 
> Look, don't get all depressed that you'll never be considered as a potential adopter. You might not find the right dog the first visit, or the second, or the tenth. We didn't get the first dog we wanted BECAUSE we didn't have kids and the foster mom thought the dog would be good in a home with kids. "Discrimination" can work both ways.
> 
> Jean, I'd throw you a parade any day!


Good Karma, DID YOU CHANGE YOUR AVATAR???? This looks like a more grown up Rosa??? Or am I just crazy?

Wasn't there some post about Tibetian Mastiffs going for something like 600K? I think that is in China. And I also think that was a whole lot more money and trouble than my sister's two adopted children. Ok, maybe you do not have to go through a series of home checks and phsychological profiles to get the Mastiff.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I must say my family had NO problem adopting Tanner.It was a breeze!lol.We recently had KLOS Pet Adoption Day at my shelter, the line to adopt was out the door. 40 something dogs and 20 something cats were adopted. The shelter was almost empty.

I was working at my shelter on Saturday and a lady and her son came. The lady came and told me she wanted to see a dog, I told her to take the dog's kennel card up to the front desk and they will get someone to help them(I was already with someone and a dog). So she said "thank you" and walked away. about 10 minutes later this lady comes to me and starts ranting how they wouldn't let her and her son take out the dog because he wasn't good aorund kids 12 and under. Her son was about 12. She was also saying how her son has been around pitbulls all his life(the dog they wanted to see was a pitbull mix).Sorry but not all pitbulls will like your son.

But anyways, I just nodded and listened, I didn't want to start anything.After the rant session, I went up to the front and told them about the situation. They said the reason they wouldn't let her see the dog eas because when they evaluated the dog, she got very nervous around kids and started growling. They just did not want to take that chance of the kid getting bit and have to take the dog back and have the dog put down.

If certain dogs can't be adopted out to certain people or famalies for whatever reason they are free to ask. THe dogs have a kennel sheet that says how much exercise they will need, what kind of owner they should have(a expierenced owner, any home.) How much grooming they will need, whehter or not they are good with other dogs, whether or not they are good with cats, it also lists whether or not they can go to a home with kids or not(they will list a specific age) There was a BEAUTIFUL husky named Mason, who won my heart the moment I saw him. He would be great for any active family. He just couldn't go to a home with kids under 12 because he would get too anxious or excited and might knock the kid down. Another dog, a Papillion, can't go to a home with kids under 5, because she will growl at them.

I think some people need to ask. Just because 1 or 2 places turned you down doesn't mean all are bad and picky. I am thinking about becoming a foster parent, and I sure will be picky!!


----------



## selzer

Isn't it terribly risky to adopt an adult dog that growls around kids anyways. 

I mean, you can adopt to a family with no kids, but that does not mean they do not have grandchildren, nieces, nephews, neighbor kids. 

It also does not mean that they will not give the dog to a brother, who after he has it for a year or so, sells it on Craig's list to the exact type of family the shelter does not want to deal with. 

Should they euth every animal that shows aggression toward kids just in case? 

But if they do not, couldn't the people who adopted the dog sue them if there is an aggression problem with the dog that they knew about?

Just wondering.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

selzer said:


> Isn't it terribly risky to adopt an adult dog that growls around kids anyways.
> 
> I mean, you can adopt to a family with no kids, but that does not mean they do not have grandchildren, nieces, nephews, neighbor kids.
> 
> It also does not mean that they will not give the dog to a brother, who after he has it for a year or so, sells it on Craig's list to the exact type of family the shelter does not want to deal with.
> 
> Should they euth every animal that shows aggression toward kids just in case?
> 
> But if they do not, couldn't the people who adopted the dog sue them if there is an aggression problem with the dog that they knew about?
> 
> Just wondering.


 
Umm, yeah it is that why they didn't let them even take out the dog.They didn't euthanize the dog. They just don't want to take the risk of adopting out that can have an aggression, and they don't want to be a liability and get sued. 

They will give the potential adopters a questionaire and screen them, if they have grandkids they will ask about them like how often are the grandkids over etc.They want what best for the dog _and _human.

And I never said they should ethunaize every dog that show aggression, but they need to take it as a precaution when adopting the dog out and let the public know, so they can make a good decision on whether or not they should get that dog or not.


----------



## Good_Karma

selzer said:


> Good Karma, *DID YOU CHANGE YOUR AVATAR????* This looks like a more grown up Rosa??? Or am I just crazy?
> 
> Wasn't there some post about Tibetian Mastiffs going for something like 600K? I think that is in China. And I also think that was a whole lot more money and trouble than my sister's two adopted children. Ok, maybe you do not have to go through a series of home checks and phsychological profiles to get the Mastiff.


Yes, that's Rosa from a couple weeks ago. I realized my posts probably wouldn't be taken too seriously if they looked like they were coming from her puppy face.:crazy:

Since this thread is already so far off topic, you would not believe how hard it is to bring over a wife from China. My neighbor has been married (in China) for over a year now and is still trying to get his wife into the country.


----------



## chinamom2

Well, as someone who adopted from China, I think I will have to say the criteria was a wee bit more stringent then any rescue would require. 

I don't know that I would say pet hoarders are rescuers, maybe more that they are collectors and living breathing animals just appeal more to them. Certainly there has to be an element for mental illness there. Rescues can become hoarders; collect more animals then they can manage and things spiral out of control.

Off topic I know, but I adopted my lab from rescue. (Yep, a lab owner who loves this forum, gsds and wants to learn all I can before adopting a gsd.) I don't fault any rescue for setting criteria, a lot of hard work goes into fostering. It is nice if they do look beyond tha application in hand, but if they have six other great applications, who can fault them for choosing what they feel is the best one. I have fostered; you stick your heart and soul into that dog and in the end I want want the best home possible for my fosters.

I volunteer at a county shelter in Southwest Ohio and I wish even half the people who showed up would give some serious thought before they adopted. Just because the dog is pretty, doesn't make it a good choice. 

Sadly, I think with the economy the way it is more gsds and other larger dogs are going to show up at our shelter. Most will wait longer to be adopted. Fastest dogs to be adopted here are the little fluffy ones. Go figure, they will also cost the most to groom.


----------



## weber1b

I am not a rescuer in that I do not personnally take in dogs for rescue and go through the process of placing them. However we got our first dog from a rescue, have taken in two dogs from shelter situations and have done some fostering work for our rescue. So I do think I have some experience to add to this discussion.

One of the differences between a rescue situation and the shelters is that the good rescues take in a dog, evaluate them, learn something about them over a period of time and begin the process of taking the shelter out of the dog. This makes so much difference in the end placement. Understanding the temperament of the dog, so that it does not rebound back from the placement is vital. Understanding the dog to know what issues it might have. Our Max is very dog aggressive and has some real health issues. Patton it turns out is a protective biter. (protective meaning he is very defensive about his environment and the people he knows. As long as you are not perceived as a threat, he's ok with you) Lord knows what might happen with a dog like him coming right out of a shelter. More likely if any of this comes out to light in a shelter, the dog is done for. This is not to denigrate the shelters. Without them, most of these dogs would immediately be put down, or left on the street in the first place. Shelters just cannot do all that is needed, mostly due to lack of resources (including people).


Doing the things rescues do take time and money. Then there are the vet bills and other expenses getting a dog "adoptable". Rescues can get lucky and "make money" on a placement, but in the long run, that is unlikely, not if they really rescue the dogs that need rescueing. At the end of the day, if you are not in it for the dogs, then you don't do it. I believe rescuers turned hoarders start out as well meaning folks who can't say no, or get in over their heads. The fee overall, IMO reflects the greater investment the rescues have in the dogs they place. I would much rather pay $300 to a rescue than $1000 for a puppy.

Yes, we all know that those who are turned down by rescues are going to get a dog soomewhere else. Unfortunately, a percentage of those dogs end up going through the shelter/rescue process themselves down the line. (you notice I said a percentage, by no means will it be ALL or even a large portion of them, it's just sad that it is ANY of them)


----------



## Samba

Rescued another one today. Surely rapidly on the way to hoarding!!


----------



## selzer

Good_Karma said:


> Yes, that's Rosa from a couple weeks ago. I realized my posts probably wouldn't be taken too seriously if they looked like they were coming from her puppy face.:crazy:
> 
> Since this thread is already so far off topic, you would not believe how hard it is to bring over a wife from China. My neighbor has been married (in China) for over a year now and is still trying to get his wife into the country.


Even the more mature Rosa is sweet looking, but.....

Ok, I just have a hard time with change and I guess I got used to her muppety sweet puppy face. There was something in the expression, like, "c'mon, lets go!!!"


----------



## Jessiewessie99

My friends and I rescued a dog recently, guess I will become a hoarder. :/


----------



## sitstay

I see a huge difference between hoarders and rescuers. A hoarder brings in animals and can't then let them go. They can't care for all the animals in their possession and can't seem to objectively, realistically see the conditions everyone is living under. A hoarder will look at a room knee deep in poo and pee, with skinny, sick animals living in it, and not really see those conditions. 

A rescuer is bringing in animals, vetting them and evaluating them and then placing them. They come in, they stay for a while and then they leave.

I do believe that hoarders have an underlying mental health issue that causes them to not see their situation as it appears to the rest of the world. Are some rescuers susceptible to this? Sure, but probably no more so than the general population. And from a strictly psychological stand point, there is no difference between how someone rationalizes the conditions their 200 hoarded Chihuahuas live under and how someone rationalizes how their 25 years worth of hoarded newspapers are kept. It is that uniformity of experience that will eventually make hoarding a DSM classified mental illness (if it hasn't been already...I have been out of the social work field for 15 years).

Some rescuers get caught up in the "I can't say no" cycle and get in over their head. They might adopt out animals, but they can't keep up financially or work wise with their numbers. The key concept with this situation is the fact that they do adopt out animals, which is something that a real hoarder just can't do. So I see a difference between someone that is in over their head with rescue work and a real hoarder. Both are equally bad for the animal, but there are differences in motivation and pathology. 

Also, I think often real hoarders will use the "I am a rescue, I take in the sick and injured that nobody else wants and that is why they all look so bad" defense. This is how they rationalize the conditions, not a real explanation or definition of what they do. They might not ever have adopted out an animal, but the media isn't going to know that or appreciate the difference. Or LE, often where the media get their information. If the person who has just been busted for having 157 cats living in a one bedroom duplex says she is a rescue, that is what the cops know and that is what the newspaper will report the next day. And it is that connection that gets repeated throughout the community. And yet, the person has never been a rescue if you use the "bring them in, vet and evaluate and then place" definition.
Sheilah


----------



## selzer

I think hoarding escalates though. I think a person can breed and sell puppies, or rescue and adopt out dogs, and then as the disease progresses, they find it more and more difficult to part with the dogs, to have people over, to keep up with the daily maintenance, and to manage the costs. It spirals farther and farther. 

Not letting people come over, means fewer dogs are finding homes and getting out of there. More animals, means that animals start sharing cages and kennels and waste increases. More animals mean more every day work, less time to get things under control, more cost. Animals sharing space means that breedings will take place, breedings that the hoarder will be even less likely to try and place. Puppies who will not be likely to get fixed and will need to be housed with other animals, meaning much more likely to have litters early on.


----------



## sitstay

selzer said:


> I think hoarding escalates though. I think a person can breed and sell puppies, or rescue and adopt out dogs, and then as the disease progresses, they find it more and more difficult to part with the dogs, to have people over, to keep up with the daily maintenance, and to manage the costs. It spirals farther and farther.


I would agree with this statement. It is a progressive disease. If someone went from being a "reasonable" owner, or breeder or rescuer to being a hoarder overnight (with all the hallmarks of hoarding, including animals being kept in horrible conditions, with horrible health issues going untreated and the human living in filth and being unable to recognize the situation for what it is), then there would be such a huge red flag that people would pay attention immediately.

But because the situation deteriorates over a period of time, then it is so easy for people to miss the warning signs until it becomes clear that there is a problem.
Sheilah


----------

