# How important are studs to a GSD breeding program?



## GSD Fan (Sep 20, 2010)

How important are studs to a GSD breeding program? 

I see some breeders who have all female prospects, and few studs. Some of them don't even have studs! 

Studs are less trouble to keep, right? So why more investment in females than males? If you stud a male, you can get first pick of the litter, right? So why not use studs to build a breeding program?

I never understood it, can someone elaborate?


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

The owner of the female has more choices on who to breed to than the owner of the stud. Also, the owner of the female is the one who gets the puppies. My breeder has 4 females and one stud. However, she does not limit her breeding to just the one stud that she has. Often times using an outside male will make a better cross on a particular female depending on what she is trying to produce with the breeding.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

A kennel's foundation is in the brood bitches. Whoever owns the female controls the breeding (within reason), meaning, you can go outside your kennel to find the best possible match for a particular female. A good program has a goal in mind and will buy or produce females to hopefully fulfill their vision. They can then go out and breed to the best for that particular litter. Once they see what that produces they can repeat it or try to tweak their outcome. The need for a male in house is almost not necessary. Now having a good male to compete with and then promote your program and breed to outside females is a good goal as well. Prove that what you produce is what you claim it to be. 
When I own the female, I get to pick from the best of the best. Assuming that my female is up to the standards of those stud owners, in working line dogs generally Schutzhund titled (a 1 is usually fine for a female, but a 2 and 3 is even better), good hips, elbows and maybe even koerklassed, and finally a brucellosis clear. Once I've picked the male (and believe me if I go to all that trouble I'm going to get the best I can find) I then raise the pups, they get my kennel name and *I* choose the pups for myself and buyers. When you own the male, and you are truly interested in improving the breed, then the male you are offering at stud will be in competition with the best out there. My current female is still a youngster, but if I were planning on breeding her you can bet I'd already be scoping out the males at the top of the food chain. Looking at what they've produced thus far with which bloodlines and making a list for when the time comes.
So owning a male is great, but gives you no where near the input on the breeding and legacy of the breed that owning a good brood bitch does. 
There are a few kennels that have a respected male that will then go out and buy females to complement that male, but very few will breed back to that same in-house male more than once. If they are going to breed that female again they will venture out into the gene pool and see what a different pairing will bring.

Now had your question been "How important is a stud to the breed?" the answer would be very different.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It is cheaper to spend $1000 on an excellent stud dog fee, that truly complements your bitch, has the required testing, etc, then it is to raise a stud dog from a puppy and pray he complements your bitches. Furthermore, if you keep your own stud, in a few short years, you cannot use him regardless because everything you have will be related to him.

Puppies are a crap shoot, and paying to keep a boy, and training, and working with him trialing him, getting him past his medical checks, and then you are pretty much stuck using him even if he is not the best dog for your bitch. 

You can pay a fee that is usually less than what a pup is worth, or some stud owner's will take a pick puppy, and if your bitch is truly awesome, you can maybe stipulate something less than pick of litter. 

The other choice is to keep a male to use on outside bitches. Uhm, well, I think I wrote a thread about that, and no way am I going to be a stud dog owner for outside bitches. It's a job, and worth the stud fee. But unless the dog walks on water, and has been certified up, down, and inside out, no one is going to want to use your dog.


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## Josie/Zeus (Nov 6, 2000)

Interesting thread. I am in complete agreement wiyh Annette.

As a buyer, I cared more about the female's pedigree more than the males. Koda is very much like his mom, expression, temperament and his color.


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## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

selzer said:


> Furthermore, if you keep your own stud, in a few short years, you cannot use him regardless because everything you have will be related to him.


This is a big one. My family raised cattle when I was growing up. We kept females back for breeding and, as a result, had to sell the bull every few years or he'd be breeding his daughters. When you're talking about cattle it's not a big deal to sell the old bull and buy a new one every 2 years but with quality dogs it's a HUGE deal to purchase another quality male. Much easier to have good quality females and then be able to pick from literally an entire world of studs.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

What Annette said.


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## marbury (Apr 3, 2012)

I absolutely agree with Bocron and Selzer, I have all bitches and no interest in owning a stud for those reasons exactly.

But you know what gets my goat? No one seems to care who a litter is out of; only who they're BY. If you import from Germany, half the time they don't even specify the name of the bitch in the breeding. More than half the time there are pages and pages of pictures of the stud and all his accomplishments, and although the importer can find you the name of the dam they never have pictures, unless she's produced top males. *d'oh*
That even happens in the US. I just bought a nice bitch puppy and I had a **** of a time extracting the name of the dam from the breeder; they seemed surprised that I wanted to know, saying 'well we figured you wouldn't know her'.

It's like people completely forget that the dam is half of the puppy you're about to get. Moreover, she does ALL the work and represents the practical entirety of the pup's emotional and developmental stability. Plus, the attitudes of the dam determine the actions of her daughters in whelp; if I'm planning on breeding her daughter, I need to know if the dam was a careless, unclean, or uninterested mother. If she was, I won't breed her daughters, because they inherit those traits.
Most/all effective breeders don't have more studs than they do bitches, it doesn't make financial sense to do so. But a lot of high-level kennels do seem to sell on stud power alone. I'd love to have insight on that myself.
Good topic! Sorry for the rant.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Marbury, I agree with you as well. My dog and my co-workers dog are out of two different females but by the same stud. They are very different types of dogs in both structure and temperament.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

To me, the dam is more than half the equation. She imprints her temperament on them for the first 8 weeks (or longer if you get the puppy a bit older). The last 4 dogs we bought we bought mostly based on the dam, we fell in love with her temperament and then really liked the pedigree so told the breeder we wanted a pup out of her, we trusted the breeder to choose a male that would complement the female's pedigree. When the sire had been chosen we were sent his pedigree and were happy with it so it was a go.
Oh, and like Selzer said, using an in-house male means you will soon have all related dogs (assuming you are keeping your own pups for your breeding program and if you're not then I don't know that I want one either).


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## Tim Connell (Nov 19, 2010)

What bocron and others have said...

The female contributes the intangibles such as nurturing and caring for the pups, and exhibiting behaviors that imprint and establish stability to the pups. Rarely the "hard as nails" bitches are also good mothers. The pups first reactions to their new environment are through the bitch's solid reactions to stimuli once the litter is born. We had a litter born during a major thunderstorm...no worries there, with a rock-solid bitch.

A good breeding bitch brings many more qualities to the table than just her working ability, genotype and phenotype, structure, health, and genetic compatibility with the male. In a perfect world, litters need to have the goals of accentuating the positives of both male and female, and minimizing the not so desirable aspects. If anyone says they have bred the two perfect dogs...run, don't just walk away.

In my opinion, most do not give enough credit to the bitch's input to the end product- a stable pup, with the best possible chance of success. Add this to proper imprinting of desired behaviors, environmental exposure, and socialization...and now you are looking at the total package the pup becomes.

The male is important, undoubtedly...I see litters advertised all the time that seem to rely on the male carrying the litter...but in my opinion, there has to be a global "big picture" when it comes to breeding, and that big picture needs to be framed with an excellent bitch.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For a top pup....I look to the male.......for a top litter.....I look at the female.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

Look to the female, but take male into the equation. When we got Adi, it was based on her pedigree and what her line brought to the table. Not how she would breed to just our males - how it would combine with other breedings. Even with multiple in house studs, you want to see what works and what does not. 

We now have a new female, but was based on her pedigree. Not just what would work with our males.


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