# Will A Prong Help? Redirection/biting



## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Hi All,

Thanks for giving advice. 

Some responses and answers to questions posed:

1) no intention of bite sport. I just want him to have accurate and fast obedience and eventually do competition heeling (to the level that Forrest Micke has his dog trained)
2) no luck yet finding a trainer to teach me to use a prong collar
3) Tofu does settle at home and only does calm things. I still do train basic obedience in the house. The only good useful advice I ever got from my positive-only trainer was "no playing in the house" which helped fixed immediately a lot of the puppy rambunctiousness I had at 5 months (he's now almost 9 months).

I recorded our morning session outside and Tofu delivered with some arm biting (@5s he gets distracted by a helicopter and drops ball, @43s I go to retrieve that ball, @50s I mistakenly try taking a ball that he's not ready to give up yet [yes, my mistake], 3m52s he stops biting). Having the video helps me analyze what went wrong and I'd appreciate your input. I think the initial biting started from him not liking me taking his ball. Then it turned into a game and he eventually stopped because he was bored. Am I right? Is a prong collar all I need to teach him that I'm NOT a chew toy? As he's on a harness, the only thing I can do is hold his mouth shut, then he drops to the ground on his side and I let go and he continues biting... *sigh* My initial plan for the video wasn't to show him biting, I actually wanted to start with 2-ball fetch and then show our tugging. But we didn't make it that far at all. We had a little bit of biting again after i turned off video because he started digging and he wouldn't "leave it" and so I had to pull him away from the digging.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

adora155 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thanks for giving advice.
> 
> ...


A prong isn’t going to teach him to stop biting, you will. Your mistake was continuing to try to remove the ball from his mouth. Once he digs in, you can’t win. Instead, don’t ever get to that point. You can get a ball with a rope attached, make one yourself if you have a ball with a hole in it or get a Chuck It ball tug. If he won’t release the ball, you have a rope or handle to yank on. He was playing with you in the video, and you were losing the game. But instead if that, take a step back and teach him a solid Out first. Some of us use two balls to teach Out. Throw one. Then hold up the second one and say Out. When he drops it immediately throw the second one so instead of taking when he Outs, you are giving.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

I don't see anything playful about that. You're going to get seriously hurt at some point adora.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

LuvShepherds said:


> A prong isn’t going to teach him to stop biting, you will. Your mistake was continuing to try to remove the ball from his mouth. Once he digs in, you can’t win. Instead, don’t ever get to that point. You can get a ball with a rope attached, make one yourself if you have a ball with a hole in it or get a Chuck It ball tug. If he won’t release the ball, you have a rope or handle to yank on. He was playing with you in the video, and you were losing the game. But instead if that, take a step back and teach him a solid Out first. Some of us use two balls to teach Out. Throw one. Then hold up the second one and say Out. When he drops it immediately throw the second one so instead of taking when he Outs, you are giving.


Ah! OK, I was playing 2-ball fetch wrong. I do ask for DROP and then throw 2nd ball. But your suggestion to show the 2nd ball like a treat will help.

ummm... How am I supposed to teach him not to bite me? :frown2:


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I commented on the first page of this thread, if a dog doesn't have a lot of drive, when going to a ball on a string, the first thing is to teach the dog to grip the ball and hold on and play tug. Then you move on to misses. You don't have to lift the dog off the collar to teach the out. You can simply hold the string and wait the dog out. What is important, IMO, is to let the dog rebite the ball as soon as he outs, as a reward.
> Regarding calmness, every dog is different. My dog was a destructive maniac as a pup. He would run full force and crash himself into me. I thought he would never stop biting and aggressively trying to correct the biting just made him more persistent. I could give many other examples. Now at almost 22 months of age, he is perfect in the house and doesn't even need to be crated. I would have never expected that, but fortunately he matured out of his craziness, yet maintains very good drive in training.
> As far as semantics and manners, my point is that dogs simply need to learn what you told them to do when they are displaying certain behaviors, or there will be serious consequences. The degree of punishment depends on the dog's handler hardness. It is not so much about being nice as it is you need to do this because I told you to do it. Children are taught manners. Dogs are taught to be obedient. You are not concerned about the dog's feelings. Generally, you want to be fair, but there are times when you demand a behavior. Coddling a dog and treating him like a child just creates a whole different set of problems.


I agree dogs shouldn't be coddled but I also am certain my dog has feelings and I do care about his feelings.

You talk about "handler hardness" and "teaching a dog to be obedient" in a way that makes me think you and I have a very different relationships with our dogs. I suspect our dogs are very different dogs too and I suspect Adora's dog is probably closer to mine than yours.

I've heard this debate many times where some people consider themselves to be the dog's mom and some consider themselves to be the dog's owner/handler. I feel like a have a mish mosh combination relationship with my dogs that is in some ways parent/child, in some ways equal partner in working toward a goal. They are healthy and happy and well behaved and I don't think there is a problem with our relationship. I appreciate them for being dogs, they are not children, but in many ways they are my dependent and rely on me to keep them safe and provided for just like kids. Loving them that way doesn't automatically mean you coddle them and let them get away with murder, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Some things must be done despite how I or the dog feels about it. 

I know tons of people who go to furbaby and other type extremes and I agree that's not good for anything. 

You said "generally you want to be fair but there are times when you demand a behavior"....yes....but for me, I only demand things to do with health, safety or wellbeing. If I get to the point of having to demand or force my dog to do something for competition, then I'm out. 

I had a hard time fading a foot target out of a down on recall and I was getting creeping downs and it was frustrating. A friend of mine said I needed to go around heeling and do random downs from motion and correct him into it with a prong collar. I've never used a prong collar for any competition endeavor with my dog. I felt it was the wrong thing to do, and I felt it wasn't fair to him. Yes I care how he feels. I care if I am shanking him with a prong to make him down faster so I can get a ribbon. It's not okay with me. He is a soft dog who tries REALLY unbelievably hard to figure out what I want him to do.

I knew he was creeping because he has had huge reinforcement for coming in to me and so he's like magnetized to keep going once he is in motion toward me. He was also anticipating a reward coming in. I figured out two different ways to remote reward him from behind where he started and bam down on recall is snappy and reliable. I think that was the right way to handle my dog. 

I see people competing whose dogs do stress signals on certain commands because of the way it's been trained. That's not okay with me. 

He's E Collar trained not to chase deer. That's non negotiable. If I have to do wound care of whatever and he does not want me to, too bad, you're doing it. I've used a prong collar to proof leash manners walking in distracting or unpredictable environments because he weighs 90lb and I just can't have him acting a fool on a leash. I'm fine with all of that.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thanks for giving advice.
> 
> ...


I didn't watch the whole thing and other people feel free to disagree if you think my suggestion is dangerous but I will tell you what I would do if a dog did that to me. I'd have him on a slip lead or a prong, whatever works better, and I'd get a grip on the leash right behind his head and hold him off away from me. If he relaxes and quits trying to bite ease off pressure.

The other possibility would be a come to jesus correction to the side. (leash parallel to the ground) You probably should really get a trainer to supervise you doing that in case it doesn't go well. but this is not cool at ALL. You seem to be passively waiting for him to stop chewing on you. How is he even suupposed to know not to do that, then? How soft is he? What's he do if you raise your voice at him?

I think you need to put a stop to this yesterday, preferably with professional help. Did you list your location and get trainer recommendations?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thanks for giving advice.
> 
> ...


i think your #1 focus should be on finding a good balanced trainer. I watched the rest of the video and parts of it are kinda scary to me--. I think you have a chance to shut this down and still have a nice dog because of his age, but if you let it go this could turn into something much worse- that's the scary part.

When you have the ball on a string out your body language is defensive like you know he can grab and take any time and you have to sneak it out and give it to him. You've got to find someone who can teach you to own your own space, own the things with they are in your space, so he knows he can't violate your space for biting and grabbing. 

Immediately you could step on that long line when he is dragging you around and walk up the line toward him so you can eliminate his ability to pull back on you. Going toward him is more likely to get him to let go that pulling away too.

Have you tried looking up your local IGP club or anything like it? Surely someone there could teach you how to stop this nonsense. He is an out of control brat but he isn't getting any meaningful feedback from you either--which isn't meant as a criticism of you, I know you don't know how to stop him because you are here asking...


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

adora155 said:


> Ah! OK, I was playing 2-ball fetch wrong. I do ask for DROP and then throw 2nd ball. But your suggestion to show the 2nd ball like a treat will help.
> 
> ummm... How am I supposed to teach him not to bite me? :frown2:


First, don’t ever let him bite you. Never! If he puts teeth on you, the game stops instantly. More important, you need to be aware of when he is even considering it and keep your hands out of his reach and change what he is doing before he ever makes contact. My dogs do not bite me. If they were to put teeth in me to hurt me even in play, I would use a verbal blast to let them know it is not alright ever, and it would never happen again. It I thought mine was amped up and out of control, I would immediately stop and ask for a down or a Place. Then we would stay there quietly until he calmed down. This is a good example of why a newer owner or someone who is learning how to train more effectively should not try to work in drive, if that is what you were doing. That is for a more experienced handler. You don’t need your dog amped up, you need him behaving. If you work on good behavior with your dog the rest will fall into place.

Editing to add I must read Cowboysgirl’s two posts to you and I agree with everything she said.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Ah! OK, I was playing 2-ball fetch wrong. I do ask for DROP and then throw 2nd ball. But your suggestion to show the 2nd ball like a treat will help.
> 
> ummm... How am I supposed to teach him not to bite me? :frown2:


Schutzhund Mirabel - Schutzhund Mirabel

Regions and Clubs



So far this is the only website that does not appear to be reward only...
https://www.seiriosk9.com/about/

Not an endorsement of them...I can't really tell by the website if they seem to have a clue or not


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl,
Yes, we likely have very different dogs. I was also referring to times that warrant a prominent correction being in regard to a safety issue. I also will give a quick correction if my dog fails to drop when I give the down command, but his foundation is so good I rarely have to give any corrections and a large part of that is his positive foundation with tons of work and part of it teaching him early that if he disobeys, he will be punished. I have a great relationship with my dog. He is my companion and not there for my ego. Dogs with a certain level of drive need and easily tolerate more punishment. They don't act like their feelings are hurt and just keep going on to the next thing. Depending on the dog, some have to learn to tolerate a correction and that it will not kill them. This builds resilience in some dogs. If a dog is very soft, unsure or low drive, it is a different matter.
Adora155,
I have no idea what that was or how it resembled anything suggested in this thread. I couldn't tell if you had a ball on a string or just a ball. Throwing a ball right off the bat is not going to get the game started. You have to get the dog interested in wanting the bite the ball on a string. Letting your dog bite your glove is teaching your dog to bite your glove. A harness gives you no control at all over your dog. You did some obedience right off the bat and then threw the ball. You want to get the dog interested in the ball right off the bat and then channel that drive into obedience. I understand you are just learning. I would get rid of the harness and get a prong and learn how to correctly fit and use it. I would get a ball on a string and learn how to build drive in your dog. If you don't want to use a toy, I would learn how to correctly use food via continuous reinforcement with a release command. Someone mentioned the risk of your dog ending up hurting you. I don't see that at all. You just need to decide on your goals, what approaches to use, and then learn how to use those approaches with the understanding that this is all new to you so you have a lot to learn.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

THANK YOU everyone for reviewing the video and notifying me that this is NOT normal puppy behaviour, NOT mouthing, and it seriously needs to be controlled. You can't hear me in the video, but I'm trying commands of "drop, leave it, sit, no" to no avail. Making a giant yell (not my nature) gets completely ignored. I hold his mouth shut and hold him by the scruff; he drops to the floor and "appears" to calm down but resumes biting as soon as I let go. I appreciate the analysis that I'm guarding my toy and need to claim my space.




Thecowboysgirl said:


> Schutzhund Mirabel - Schutzhund Mirabel
> 
> Regions and Clubs
> 
> ...


Thanks for being super concerned and pro-active in looking up places. I had called Schutzhund Mirabel and they don't do training; they're just a club of people to get together and train their own dogs. They had pointed me to the direction of 1 trainer who I had met on the weekend and he's compulsion training. I've left a message at Club Schutzhund Rive Sud. Club schutzhund Cyno-Sport is having a competition this weekend and so I thought to go there and perhaps get recommendations of trainers and talk to people in the sport. 




LuvShepherds said:


> First, don’t ever let him bite you. Never! If he puts teeth on you, the game stops instantly. More important, you need to be aware of when he is even considering it and keep your hands out of his reach and change what he is doing before he ever makes contact. My dogs do not bite me. If they were to put teeth in me to hurt me even in play, I would use a verbal blast to let them know it is not alright ever, and it would never happen again. It I thought mine was amped up and out of control, I would immediately stop and ask for a down or a Place. Then we would stay there quietly until he calmed down. This is a good example of why a newer owner or someone who is learning how to train more effectively should not try to work in drive, if that is what you were doing. That is for a more experienced handler. You don’t need your dog amped up, you need him behaving. If you work on good behavior with your dog the rest will fall into place.


So, I misunderstood what "working in drive" meant. I thought that it was working with any dog that wants a toy. I just need advice on how to correct my mishandling of Tofu that led up to him feeling like he has the right to bite. He's lost all thought whenever he starts biting.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I realize you don't have a high drive Malinois and you are not a top level trainer like Michael Ellis in this video, but the same principles apply. His dog doesn't have a collar because of his skill level and he competes in Mondioring where the dog doesn't wear a collar in a trial. Also, the dog clearly has a good foundation training. Take from it what you can.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I can't get the link to work. Google ball on a string with Michael Ellis. Maybe someone else can get the link up correctly


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Adora155,
> I have no idea what that was or how it resembled anything suggested in this thread. I couldn't tell if you had a ball on a string or just a ball. Throwing a ball right off the bat is not going to get the game started. You have to get the dog interested in wanting the bite the ball on a string. Letting your dog bite your glove is teaching your dog to bite your glove. A harness gives you no control at all over your dog. You did some obedience right off the bat and then threw the ball. You want to get the dog interested in the ball right off the bat and then channel that drive into obedience. I understand you are just learning. I would get rid of the harness and get a prong and learn how to correctly fit and use it. I would get a ball on a string and learn how to build drive in your dog. If you don't want to use a toy, I would learn how to correctly use food via continuous reinforcement with a release command. Someone mentioned the risk of your dog ending up hurting you. I don't see that at all. You just need to decide on your goals, what approaches to use, and then learn how to use those approaches with the understanding that this is all new to you so you have a lot to learn.


Like I mentioned in the post, I didn't get to really do what I wanted to show in the video because he started biting soon after I pressed "record". I was just starting out warm up with obedience and a bit of ball throwing to after move to tugging (where he'd have some mises at the tug - he did ok last week on this).


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

adora155 said:


> THANK YOU everyone for reviewing the video and notifying me that this is NOT normal puppy behaviour, NOT mouthing, and it seriously needs to be controlled. You can't hear me in the video, but I'm trying commands of "drop, leave it, sit, no" to no avail. Making a giant yell (not my nature) gets completely ignored. I hold his mouth shut and hold him by the scruff; he drops to the floor and "appears" to calm down but resumes biting as soon as I let go. I appreciate the analysis that I'm guarding my toy and need to claim my space.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Working them in drive is kind of a blanket statement for working with their drives in a higher state of focus and energy. I'd forget about all that for now. He's hurting you already, protesting what you're telling him to do and warning you. See the willingness in your first video? He wants to do it. There's a little confusion and frustration there, but when you add in the distractions at the park and you taking the toy like that, all the little conflicts will show. I'd suggest you dial everything back, never mind playing with him at all for a while. Inadvertently you're contesting him for the toy. He's not all that focused on the toy, its more about you taking it.

This is how conflict escalates. He already came out of that down to bite you. You're going to start trying to correct him with a prong or demand an obedience in that moment, he could protest that even more. The grabbing his muzzle, scruffing isn't productive now. You're fighting with him.

I'd look to reset some things with him. Calm, easier obedience. Simple, look to end any confusion. One thing at a time for him to clearly succeed at. You want to make corrections fair in his mind, so you want a chance to do that before you're in that moment where he's standing up to you like that. 90% of my time would just be walking calmly on a leash with him for now.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Forget about videos. They don't show you what to do when something goes wrong. You're on the wrong track now.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Chip Blasiole said:


> I can't get the link to work. Google ball on a string with Michael Ellis. Maybe someone else can get the link up correctly


Maybe this will work







But I agree with Steve whole heartedly, but I'd go find someone to help you face to face. A good trainer will be able to get you back on track quickly, whereas continuing to work with him this way, whether you dial things back or not IMHO is unlikely to work. He's learned and practiced this behavior with you for too long!


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

tim_s_adams said:


> Chip Blasiole said:
> 
> 
> > I can't get the link to work. Google ball on a string with Michael Ellis. Maybe someone else can get the link up correctly
> ...


Yes! I'd love to play with my dog in this fashion one of these days... ?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

Thanks for fixing the link.
Adora155,
You are seeing the adage written out in front of you, "the only thing two dogs trainers can agree on is that the other one doesn't know what he is doing." There is no recipe and many ways to train a dog. The most productive is to find an approach that works best with the type of dog you have to obtain the goals you want. I still don't think your dog will become a danger to you. He just looks too laid back and to me, and is playing with you. It still might hurt, but is just play. By watching the video above, you can see that a good deal of skill is involved in using a ball on a string. Going back to food might be a better choice, but even then, there is a correct way to use food that can get complicated. If you use food, and you want faster obedience, you have to lure with the food in specific positions and quickly, and have a release. Following a release, some people teach their dog to do a fast spin or two using the food to help them reset while keeping the dog in drive. I don't think your dog is likely to have that level of drive, but you can still get faster obedience, but you have to be more "in drive" and animated.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> [He's hurting you already, protesting what you're telling him to do and warning you. See the willingness in your first video? He wants to do it. There's a little confusion and frustration there, but when you add in the distractions at the park and you taking the toy like that, all the little conflicts will show. I'd suggest you dial everything back, never mind playing with him at all for a while. Inadvertently you're contesting him for the toy. He's not all that focused on the toy, its more about you taking it.
> 
> This is how conflict escalates. He already came out of that down to bite you. You're going to start trying to correct him with a prong or demand an obedience in that moment, he could protest that even more. The grabbing his muzzle, scruffing isn't productive now. You're fighting with him.


When I look at it through this lens, you're completely right that I'm fighting with him ? he wasn't finished with the ball and here I am CONSTANTLY taking things away from him. Because I live downtown with lots of garbage, I'm often telling him "leave it" and "drop" in addition to training to "drop" toys. He must view me as a tyrant for that... I'll dial back a few days and only have fun with him and cuddles while looking for the right trainer.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

adora155 said:


> When I look at it through this lens, you're completely right that I'm fighting with him ? he wasn't finished with the ball and here I am CONSTANTLY taking things away from him. Because I live downtown with lots of garbage, I'm often telling him "leave it" and "drop" in addition to training to "drop" toys. He must view me as a tyrant for that... I'll dial back a few days and only have fun with him and cuddles while looking for the right trainer.


You have a trainable dog that is focused on you. He wants to please you. Please find a very good trainer who understands German Shepherds and who can both explain what you need to do as well as show you. If one trainer doesn’t work for you and your dog, be willing look for another one. I went through five trainers before I found one who understood working line German Shepherds, which is what I have.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

There is a lot going on in that video that needs to be fixed pretty quickly, but specific to your question on will a prong help. Most definitely in my opinion. Sure you have to train him not to bite you, but nothing wrong with an aid. With any correction training, the dog needs to know why he is getting corrected. I think you're pretty safe here on using a prong to get the message across.


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## Nscullin (Sep 29, 2019)

Frisco19 said:


> There is a lot going on in that video that needs to be fixed pretty quickly, but specific to your question on will a prong help. Most definitely in my opinion. Sure you have to train him not to bite you, but nothing wrong with an aid. With any correction training, the dog needs to know why he is getting corrected. I think you're pretty safe here on using a prong to get the message across.




I’d like to play devils advocate for a moment and say maybe. I’ve seen prong collars antagonize some dogs. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Steve Strom said:
> 
> 
> > [He's hurting you already, protesting what you're telling him to do and warning you. See the willingness in your first video? He wants to do it. There's a little confusion and frustration there, but when you add in the distractions at the park and you taking the toy like that, all the little conflicts will show. I'd suggest you dial everything back, never mind playing with him at all for a while. Inadvertently you're contesting him for the toy. He's not all that focused on the toy, its more about you taking it.
> ...


I think Steve had really good advice but Adora, I feel like there is a problem with how you are defining yourself here. You call yourself a "tyrant" and plan to give him fun and cuddles.

This dog needs hard boundaries and fast. You are way safer to do that with a trainer. But you can still think about the mind set of being a firm leader who takes no crap even without being yet prepared to follow through.

What Steve said about keeping things calm is smart and safe.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

He seems like a good-natured dog who loves you, but is being a *brat* about his ball/toy. He doesn't want to give it up once he gets it, and thinks it's fun to tug at the toy, mouth at your hand, instead.

My gut instinct would be to say sharply "NO!", turn my back to him to take my hands/arms out of reach, stuff the toys back in the bag, game over. If he ever ran back towards me with ball in mouth, I will be overjoyed and cheer him on (this worked to teach my dog to come back with the ball...he loves applause). 

In obedience class, we learned the "Drop It/Leave It" with food - he can't have the food on floor or on chair, but once he gives up, we give him the tasty treat in our hand. Have you thought about doing a class? 

That "yawn" at the end - he's complying, but showing you that he thinks this is a bit boring and he's not really into it. ( My dog gets bored after a few repetitions as well - like, "I know Sit. Why do I have to do Sit again." Apparently I was being boring and getting into a pattern without knowing it, because he started Sitting before I even uttered a word. That's when I realized...boy, I must be really repetitive.)

I admire your daily work and training with Tofu!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

And I agree with cowboysgirl! You are not being a tyrant! 
You ask him to drop the food he finds on the ground, because it will make him sick. 
You ask him to retrieve the ball so he can have lots of fun chasing it again (and because it's part of standard training).

Believe in yourself - have confidence that you have the right to have him listen to you!
He is the one who's out of line because he doesn't know better (yet). But you will teach him the right way to behave.

OK, I'm a mom...If my kid picks some old goldfish crackers off the ground at the playground and tries to eat them...am I a tyrant for saying "No!" and taking them away - or a good mom? If my kid is playing a game with me and decides to just throw all the pieces in the air...am I a tyrant for insisting that she calms down and picks them up, puts them away? (sorry hard to think of a Biting analogy, but same mindset!) Doesn't my kid turn out better with a bit of "tyranny" in her life?


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

GSDchoice said:


> Believe in yourself - have confidence that you have the right to have him listen to you!
> He is the one who's out of line because he doesn't know better (yet). But you will teach him the right way to behave.


I can intimidate a pervert twice my weight on the subway to get off at the next stop; but my dog that weighs half my weight has zero reaction to my intimidation tactics. The irony! *sigh*


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

adora155 said:


> When I look at it through this lens, you're completely right that I'm fighting with him ? he wasn't finished with the ball and here I am CONSTANTLY taking things away from him. Because I live downtown with lots of garbage, I'm often telling him "leave it" and "drop" in addition to training to "drop" toys. He must view me as a tyrant for that... I'll dial back a few days and only have fun with him and cuddles while looking for the right trainer.


One thing I can tell you for certain is that it's NEVER good to take ANYTHING from a dog forcefully! As in, reaching and taking things from their mouth. My dog wouldn't tolerate that, she'd be a lot more disrespectful than your dog is being! She'd hurt you, probably seriously! 

That whole approach is confrontational. My dog will absolutely not let go of anything in her mouth if I grab it, because (a) its hers, and (b) if I just grab for it it's a game, and she always wins!

Teaching them to drop it, or out, is, on the other hand, structured play. Your ball, your game, your rules. He's finished when you say he's finished!!! That's not being a tyrant!

That being said, although I've never used it myself, I have and do recommend the two-ball approach to people. As others have said, show the dog the second ball to get him to drop the first, when he drops the ball immediately throw the second ball. Keep the game high energy, and enthusiastic! You need to up your animation and enthusiasm while playing, make yourself more fun in your dog's eyes.

The behavior your dog is showing is learned over time. He's a good dog, and he's pretty focused and attentive to you. But he has sort of learned the "rules" on his own. I didn't see you telling him to stop, or knock it off. YOU are in charge, YOU make the rules, YOU have to communicate the rules! That's what boundaries are all about!

I know you're trying, and I know you've gotten some bad advice from some of the so-called trainers you've worked with. So please, don't take my comments the wrong way, I'm trying to be helpful, not critical! But seriously, you need to be black and white with your dog, and WAY more forceful with your commands. Dogs actually appreciate that, it's clearer for them as long as you're consistent! I posted a video awhile back of my dog practicing downs. Check it out, I FINALLY achieved her quick response by being more loud and animated (and don't forget to lavishly praise when they get it!)!

https://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/braggs/747789-snappy-down.html


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> GSDchoice said:
> 
> 
> > Believe in yourself - have confidence that you have the right to have him listen to you!
> ...


Funny you say that because earlier I was thinking how would you reapond if a man was repeatedly groping and grabbing you on the sidewalk. Would you calmly stand there with his hand on your butt and say "Drop it" quietly? And then wait calmly to see if he stops?

It's close to just as out of line what your dog is doing to you.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

tim_s_adams said:


> One thing I can tell you for certain is that it's NEVER good to take ANYTHING from a dog forcefully! As in, reaching and taking things from their mouth. My dog wouldn't tolerate that, she'd be a lot more disrespectful than your dog is being! She'd hurt you, probably seriously!
> 
> That whole approach is confrontational. My dog will absolutely not let go of anything in her mouth if I grab it, because (a) its hers, and (b) if I just grab for it it's a game, and she always wins!



Disrespectful is the right word. Your dog doesn't respect you. Your dog should have been taught to release/out anything she has in her mouth whether you grab it or not. I train with some people who have very high drive, very possessive dogs and they all out a toy being held by the handler in a second. It simply has to be taught.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Chip Blasiole said:


> Disrespectful is the right word. Your dog doesn't respect you. Your dog should have been taught to release/out anything she has in her mouth whether you grab it or not. I train with some people who have very high drive, very possessive dogs and they all out a toy being held by the handler in a second. It simply has to be taught.


I 100% reserve the right to take anything out of any of my dogs' mouths at any time. But I don't want them to resent me and I don't want to fight with them so I teach it in a positive way and I always reward good responses and make the rewards more valuable than what they relinquished if possible. 

They know it is not negotiable but they also know it will be rewarding for them and that tends to get me reliable compliance without resentment. And that is regarding loot or junk outside not outing a toy. I honestly don't use the same commands for don't eat that or spit that out or give that to me as I do for outing a toy in training play, but the principle I think is the same--non negotiable but rewarding


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

to be honest, I watched the video up to the arm chewing and then came to this last page, so I might be repeating what someone else posted. 

I also have will insist in a release on command, be it food, toy or arm. I started teaching it before I NEEDED to insist on the command and made sure I had a reward or something to exchange. There have been times I've had to take things away from my dogs before it went down their throat! Now my dogs are good at using the "phoeey" which is about not putting something in their mouth or to drop something they have in their mouth. That is different than "aus" which is an Out when using a toy or tool...or sometimes my arm if they want to play and they grab hold a bit too tight. If they don't let go right away I use my other hand to push up on the front teeth to make holding on just a bit uncomfortable. Again,it is a word I work on before we need it. 

If a dog were aggressively holding on I'd use the leash to choke it out. The part of the video I watch it looks like some play / frustration, not aggression. Personally I wouldn't use a collar to correct that.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Nscullin said:


> I’d like to play devils advocate for a moment and say maybe. I’ve seen prong collars antagonize some dogs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Fair enough, how would you go about correcting the behavior in this video? How would you stop the dog from jumping up and biting her arm? How would you be a tyrant? I ask with genuine curiosity as an alternative to a correction - be it prong or e-collar? Goes without saying, but hitting or raising a hand to a dog is not an option for me.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Tyrant? Who said anything about a tyrant?


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I went back and watched the video full screen. A prong collar would have been a great help and you could have prevented the whole biting behavior if when you got the ball and your dog released it, you started the game by teasing him up with the ball getting him interested in biting it and not you. Throwing the ball was the first mistake. You need to teach him it is something to strike and grip and play tug with like on the Michael Ellis video. A quick pop on the prong would have stopped your dog biting you in a second and you could have gotten him in drive by teasing him up.


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Tyrant? Who said anything about a tyrant?




Read the thread.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

adora155 said:


> When I look at it through this lens, you're completely right that I'm fighting with him ? he wasn't finished with the ball and here I am CONSTANTLY taking things away from him. Because I live downtown with lots of garbage, I'm often telling him "leave it" and "drop" in addition to training to "drop" toys. He must view me as a tyrant for that... I'll dial back a few days and only have fun with him and cuddles while looking for the right trainer.


The main point I'm trying to make Adora, is don't go from one extreme to the other. No matter what, a 9mo old dog putting his teeth on you is asking for trouble. By dial back, I mean remove the emotion and conflict from things to give you a better chance to teach him whats appropriate and then fairly in his mind, whats not. I give you a lot of credit though, you're clearly not afraid of him. That goes a long way in fixing this.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

car2ner said:


> If a dog were aggressively holding on I'd use the leash to choke it out. The part of the video I watch it looks like some play / frustration, not aggression. Personally I wouldn't use a collar to correct that.


With all due respect car2ner, it always concerns me when people toss out something like that online. Its not as easy as that sounds and the it can go very seriously wrong.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

adora155 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Thanks for giving advice.
> 
> ...



I have not read all the responses, so my suggestions may have already been mentioned. 

I just watched the video, and that's a big fat NOPE! Do NOT allow this behavior to continue any longer. This is going to become a huge issue. 

1) Get rid of the harness and get a collar on that dog immediately. You have no control over him in a harness. 

2) Get with good balanced trainer to walk you through the steps of how to correct this. 

3) You need to work on your relationship with him. He doesn't see you as a leader. Work Nothing In Life Is Free and add structure to his life. 

4) Instead of waiting him out when he's biting you or your clothing, tell him no, get him off immediately and then tell him what you want him to be doing instead. Don't let him decide for himself what the appropriate response is. Dogs are horrible decision makers, so if you leave it up to him to decide what to do, then he will choose what benefits him the most.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Adora- I would recommend making contact with this club. I know a few people who go here with their dogs and it's a good facility. If they can't help, they should be able to tell you who might be able to- instructor Lyne should be able to direct you to a working club or trainer, for sure- or even help you herself. 

Centre Sportif Canin DogZworth ? Entraînement Pour Chiens ? Training for Dogs Montréal, QC


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

I don't want to turn this off-topic or crash this thread, but I have never been around a white GSD. I have seen many comments that their temperament is generally not consistent with the breed. Is this video indicative of White GSD behavior? Or is that statement too broad of a stroke?


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## tc68 (May 31, 2006)

Your dog is just like mine was last year. (He is now 1year 9months old). It got so bad that one day, when I went to reach for his frisbee, he growled and bit me really hard, drawing blood. That night at his dinner meal, he bit me "aggressively" again when I put his bowl down...again drawing blood. These weren't mouthing bites, these were hard skin piercing bites. I realized then that his resource guarding problem had gotten much worse. So this whole year, I've been working on this problem. I can now approach him while he's eating and place my hand in his bowl without him stiffening up and growling and snapping. Same with playing ball and frisbee. He'll give up his ball and frisbee when I tell him to "drop it" or if I go to take it out of his mouth. It's not perfect. Maybe once every 100 times, he'll "complain" and slightly growl, but I immediately correct that behavior. If you let your dog get away with that behavior, he will continue doing it, and it may get worse.

A prong collar will work with some dogs, and not work with others. I tried using the prong with my dog when he got bitey or growly. That just made it worse. All it did was make him angrier and angrier. So I stopped using the prong for that after a couple tries with it.

What you have to do is just like everyone else said, use 2 balls. The minute he gives up the first ball, you throw the other one. Play with the ball in your hand...make it exciting. Usually dogs want the ball in your hand, not the one in their mouth. When they want the ball in your hand, they'll drop the one in their mouth. The second they drop it, throw the other one. Eventually they'll understand. And it'll be a non stop running back and forth. In the beginning, just throw the ball when he drops it, and when he goes to get the other one, you go and get the one he dropped. Over time, you teach him to drop the ball at your feet, and only then will you throw the other one. One step at a time. I might have something posted on my IG page, if not, I'll post one. Then you can see how I do it.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

tc68 said:


> A prong collar will work with some dogs, and not work with others. I tried using the prong with my dog when he got bitey or growly. That just made it worse. All it did was make him angrier and angrier. So I stopped using the prong for that after a couple tries with it.



This! That's why I don't recommend a prong right away. Rather get with a trainer. There are a million methods out there, but getting with someone who is experienced to lead the way is crucial. Reading a bunch of techniques and theory is one thing, applying it is a totally different animal.


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## Koda'sMom (Feb 13, 2013)

Disclaimer: I do not know your dogs particular temperament so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Biting and mouthing are two extremely different things but equally unacceptable in my book.

I am by no means a professional trainer but I have spent a lot of time working with large groups of dogs, many of them extremely ill behaved. One thing that I have found to work with dogs who are excited jumpers/mouthers is to move into them and claim the space and keep their feet moving until they calm down. Now this may NOT work with every dog, this has just in my experience worked for me 99% of the time. I just recently had to do this with my cousins 2 year old lab. I backed him down and then ignored him until he settled away from my space. I don't allow dogs in my space until I invite them for attention.

I REPEAT. I am NOT a professional. I am just passing on what has worked for me and I CANNOT say that it will work with your dog.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Saco said:


> Adora- I would recommend making contact with this club. I know a few people who go here with their dogs and it's a good facility. If they can't help, they should be able to tell you who might be able to- instructor Lyne should be able to direct you to a working club or trainer, for sure- or even help you herself.
> Centre Sportif Canin DogZworth ? Entraînement Pour Chiens ? Training for Dogs Montréal, QC


Thanks for looking them up! We actually are presently following a group focus class at Dogzworth and it's been an immediate difference in the amount of focus that I get from Tofu. Both Lyne and Ally moderate the class. They are positive-only training and have stated so in the first class which is understandable since it's agility training. But I will speak to Lyne on Wednesday about her thoughts in directing me to the right kind of trainer; I definitely do not want another positive-only trainer for my growing needs.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

tc68 said:


> Your dog is just like mine was last year. (He is now 1year 9months old). It got so bad that one day, when I went to reach for his frisbee, he growled and bit me really hard, drawing blood. That night at his dinner meal, he bit me "aggressively" again when I put his bowl down...again drawing blood. These weren't mouthing bites, these were hard skin piercing bites. I realized then that his resource guarding problem had gotten much worse. So this whole year, I've been working on this problem. I can now approach him while he's eating and place my hand in his bowl without him stiffening up and growling and snapping. Same with playing ball and frisbee. He'll give up his ball and frisbee when I tell him to "drop it" or if I go to take it out of his mouth. It's not perfect. Maybe once every 100 times, he'll "complain" and slightly growl, but I immediately correct that behavior. If you let your dog get away with that behavior, he will continue doing it, and it may get worse.
> 
> A prong collar will work with some dogs, and not work with others. I tried using the prong with my dog when he got bitey or growly. That just made it worse. All it did was make him angrier and angrier. So I stopped using the prong for that after a couple tries with it.
> 
> What you have to do is just like everyone else said, use 2 balls. The minute he gives up the first ball, you throw the other one. Play with the ball in your hand...make it exciting. Usually dogs want the ball in your hand, not the one in their mouth. When they want the ball in your hand, they'll drop the one in their mouth. The second they drop it, throw the other one. Eventually they'll understand. And it'll be a non stop running back and forth. In the beginning, just throw the ball when he drops it, and when he goes to get the other one, you go and get the one he dropped. Over time, you teach him to drop the ball at your feet, and only then will you throw the other one. One step at a time. I might have something posted on my IG page, if not, I'll post one. Then you can see how I do it.


Hi TC,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Hopefully, I'll have the safety of trainer to advise and observe reactions. As the handler, it's really hard to focus on the total body language given off by the dog when I'm so focused on watching the mouth :O This was the first time I tried videotaping when outdoors and it's been very edifying for me and to hear everyone's comments (which can be confusing yet also open my mind to other perspectives). I don't wish to have this dog tell me what to do but I also will not be a crank & yank handler. I wish to be a fair and benevolent handler.


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## Chip Blasiole (May 3, 2013)

I am all for laying a positive foundation, but positive only trainers do not offer good training. Complete training utilizes the four pillars of operant learning-positive reinforcement, negative reinforce, positive punishment and negative punishment, which is even more important when you have an adult dog such as you do.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Steve Strom said:


> By dial back, I mean remove the emotion and conflict from things to give you a better chance to teach him whats appropriate and then fairly in his mind, whats not. I give you a lot of credit though, you're clearly not afraid of him. That goes a long way in fixing this.


Oh, I had my freak-outs already about the biting and now have had months to train myself to try and remain calm (most of the time). I just still don't have the biting under control yet. I left a message for a mondioring trainer today and emailed him too. Will also attend a Schutzhund club competition tomorrow and get some advice on trainers; I already spoke to them on the phone and they suggested that I come see them tomorrow. The Club doesn't offer training but is a group of people who go there to train their own dogs.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Frisco19 said:


> I don't want to turn this off-topic or crash this thread, but I have never been around a white GSD. I have seen many comments that their temperament is generally not consistent with the breed. Is this video indicative of White GSD behavior? Or is that statement too broad of a stroke?


Yes that statement is too broad of a stroke. 

I can really only speak for my own white GSD who has never done anything remotely like this in his life. But he had a proper puppyhood and this one didn't. My dog is pretty soft and would be easy to correct from this type of nonsense if he were inclined. If I raised my voice at him he'd basically throw himself at my feet. I almost never have or do raise my voice to him. A stern no will put him off almost anything. Except deer i guess. But I am kind of talking about his interactions with me. Also, he is SO biddable. He wants nothing but to please.

I think the whites tend to be softer than most of the color-- although i did meet a WGSL which was very much like my white. Owner said no to it and the ears shot back just like mine would.... both probably way softer than a working line.

I've seen more color GSDs acting like this dog than whites. But I think it's important to the situation that I can not tell from watching the video how she is letting him know this is not okay. I'm not at all convinced he really knows it's not okay, and he definitely knows there won't be consequences.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

*Booked with a trainer*

I'm booked with a new trainer for Wednesday. YAY! I'm going to meet John Bayreuter, he competes in Mondioring and French Ring (he's in MA right now competing), is a judge for French Ring, owns Mals & GSD and is a balanced trainer. Fingers crossed that this works!
Dressage de chien Montreal, Quebec

But I'm still going to a Schutzhund club competition tomorrow to get other names in case this one doesn't work.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Hi TC,
> 
> Thanks for sharing your experience. Hopefully, I'll have the safety of trainer to advise and observe reactions. As the handler, it's really hard to focus on the total body language given off by the dog when I'm so focused on watching the mouth :O This was the first time I tried videotaping when outdoors and it's been very edifying for me and to hear everyone's comments (which can be confusing yet also open my mind to other perspectives). I don't wish to have this dog tell me what to do but I also will not be a crank & yank handler. I wish to be a fair and benevolent handler.


Why is it okay for your dog to do this to you and not okay for you to make him stop?

Don't be too judgmental on corrections. I don't mostly have any use for yank and crank training either but you DO need a trainer who can show you how to get this dog under control and you probably can't without some corrections. A reward only trainer is not going to fix this.

You can be fair and benevolent and still put your foot down and correct your dog. Look how dogs treat each other. Put this dog in a group of dogs. Let him start gnawing on a dog who doesn't want anything to do with him. One of two things will happen- the dog being gnawed on will become a cowed victim who has no power to stop himself being used as a living toy, or the dog being gnawed on will growl at him and warn him off. If he doesn't listen, he will be bitten, maybe thrown to the ground. Maybe chased until he is scared. That's how animals talk to each other.

A fair dog will growl or give him a look and warn him. If he doesn't listen, he'll be physically dealt with. Maybe an inhibited bite or a growl and charge. If he backs down/off, an appropriate dog will then let it go. If he comes right back and tries to start again, he may get no warning the second time and a less inhibited bite. If he acts respectful from there forward a good dog-dog will treat him fairly and neutrally because he is being respectful now.

Dogs don't and can't know where a boundary is until they get told. That's how they talk to each other.

You gotta figure out what's your human equivalent of a warning growl and then a bite. You don't have to be an inappropriate dog who continues to pursue even though he's now scared and throws him down and gives him the what for. Know what I mean?


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## Frisco19 (Aug 12, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yes that statement is too broad of a stroke.
> 
> I can really only speak for my own white GSD who has never done anything remotely like this in his life. But he had a proper puppyhood and this one didn't. My dog is pretty soft and would be easy to correct from this type of nonsense if he were inclined. If I raised my voice at him he'd basically throw himself at my feet. I almost never have or do raise my voice to him. A stern no will put him off almost anything. Except deer i guess. But I am kind of talking about his interactions with me. Also, he is SO biddable. He wants nothing but to please.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> I don't mostly have any use for yank and crank training either but you DO need a trainer who can show you how to get this dog under control and you probably can't without some corrections. A reward only trainer is not going to fix this.


Oh, I didn't mean I won't give corrections. I am looking for the right trainer to train me in giving corrections. What I meant by "crank and yank" are those that use compulsion training.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Thecowboysgirl said:
> 
> 
> > I don't mostly have any use for yank and crank training either but you DO need a trainer who can show you how to get this dog under control and you probably can't without some corrections. A reward only trainer is not going to fix this.
> ...


By that you mean compulsion only? Because I think your dog needs some compulsion in his life honestly ?

It's also not fair to him to let him go on acting like this. He could lose his life for it

Really glad you got a new trainer. Hope it's someone good who can help you straighten him out. I still think you've got a really nice dog there once you shut this stuff down


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Steve Strom said:


> With all due respect car2ner, it always concerns me when people toss out something like that online. Its not as easy as that sounds and the it can go very seriously wrong.


fair enough.


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## CeraDean (Jul 9, 2019)

adora155 said:


> I'm booked with a new trainer for Wednesday. YAY! I'm going to meet John Bayreuter, he competes in Mondioring and French Ring (he's in MA right now competing), is a judge for French Ring, owns Mals & GSD and is a balanced trainer. Fingers crossed that this works!
> Dressage de chien Montreal, Quebec
> 
> But I'm still going to a Schutzhund club competition tomorrow to get other names in case this one doesn't work.


I'm glad you found a trainer you think might work. I don't have a lot of experience with the type of troubles you are having but I do have experience Schutzhund club hopping (without a dog). I think it is a good idea to get trainer recommendations from the club members, but you might have varying success on a trial day. They may be more focused on their own dog than yours. So while I did learn from talking to the members, I also learned from watching them. They tend to be very good at reading their dogs and communicating with them, whether that be body language, markers, compulsion or corrections. Watching the members interact with their dogs can teach you a lot through observation alone. If you watch closely enough, you can pick up on some good tricks. Once again, I am not sure if the same can be said for trial day. I would say I learned more watching the greener dogs and their handlers than the trial ready dogs.


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> Yes that statement is too broad of a stroke.
> 
> I can really only speak for my own white GSD who has never done anything remotely like this in his life. But he had a proper puppyhood and this one didn't. My dog is pretty soft and would be easy to correct from this type of nonsense if he were inclined. If I raised my voice at him he'd basically throw himself at my feet. I almost never have or do raise my voice to him. A stern no will put him off almost anything. Except deer i guess. But I am kind of talking about his interactions with me. Also, he is SO biddable. He wants nothing but to please.
> 
> ...


I agree, my white shepherd is quite handler-sensative and submissive. Using my stern voice is usually enough to make him stop and lay his ears back. He is the only white shepherd I have owned, so I have no opinion on whether or not his temperment is typical. 

OP, I'm glad you are seeking out a new handler. Training should mostly be fun and positive, but I think a well-timed correction will make a world of difference. Best of luck. Please keep us updated.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

sebrench said:


> I agree, my white shepherd is quite handler-sensative and submissive. Using my stern voice is usually enough to make him stop and lay his ears back.


White shepherd/husky mix here, and he's the same. One stern "NO" and he'll never do it again. Yea, so unfortunately I trained the Growl out of him with one No...that's another not-so-great story...


Adora, let us know how it goes! 
Sounds like you are on top of it with meeting trainers and researching. 
Will be interesting to see what they think of Tofu! 
(I think he is a good dog, not mean or aggressive - attentive to you, doesn't need a lot of harsh correction - but does need to be taught that you are a Human to be listened to, not listened to when he feels like it.)


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I think much of what you see is coming from the northern breed (Samoyed) side of Tofu. Huskies are funny beasts- you want to make sure you go to a trainer who isn't completely used to the very bidable, extremely flashy working shepherds and malinois. I find with huskies it can be tricker to give clear corrections, because their drives and motivations are different than shepherds- I have both. I use a totally different training approach for my husky- hard to explain here, but it took me a while to figure him out- he is almost 12 now so we don't do much training anymore. Working with my tervuren and malinois it is so so easy- they actually want to please me (makes me look good). 

Consider getting into dog pulling sports with Tofu- might suit his natural nature better than shepherd sports? I love the SkiDog Canada folks- super welcoming and great people. I am not sure if there is anyone near you, they are mostly based out of Ottawa, but look into it a bit. If I remember correctly there are a few canicross events near Montreal. 

He is just beautiful- I think with a bit of help you'll be fine. What you're seeing I really do think is coming from his Samoyed side- they are very smart, but also quite independent and want to please themselves. Remember when mixing a shepherd with a husky, you get a strange blend of traits - I am seeing mostly the northern breed behaviors in this video.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

That's a good point! 
I forgot that her dog is actually not 100% shepherd.
I think/see he is basically a good-natured dog - but yes, may not be as extremely trainable as most shepherds.
As a small example, husky owners will rarely (or never) let their dogs offleash, whereas many GSD owners can train an offleash heel.

Yea, that yawn and the sitdown to scratch - I used to get that sometimes on walks when I want to head right and my dog wants to head left. That's why it looked so familiar to me. I don't know if GSDs ever do that (make their wishes known!)


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

adora155 said:


> I don't wish to have this dog tell me what to do but I also will not be a crank & yank handler. I wish to be a fair and benevolent handler.


All dogs aren't created equal. You have to find a training method that works for the dog and be ready to accept that it may not be your first choice. There are hundreds of methods between positive only vs crank and yank. Often what works best is a combination of methods. 

It's obvious you enjoy working with Tofu and he seems to like working with you. I hope you find a trainer that works out. I think with some direction Tofu and you are going to make a really good team. He looks like he can be a lot of fun to work with.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

*50% Samoyed*



GSDchoice said:


> As a small example, husky owners will rarely (or never) let their dogs offleash, whereas many GSD owners can train an offleash heel.
> Yea, that yawn and the sitdown to scratch - I used to get that sometimes on walks when I want to head right and my dog wants to head left. That's why it looked so familiar to me. I don't know if GSDs ever do that (make their wishes known!)


Wait, are you telling me that he DOESN'T have a serious itch to scratch and is just protesting/biding time? He does sit and randomly scratch sometimes, but not often... I did let him offleash this week on a 30 minute trail to practice recall; he never wandered far, kept checking back on me and came back on recall. 



Muskeg said:


> I think much of what you see is coming from the northern breed (Samoyed) side of Tofu. Huskies are funny beasts- you want to make sure you go to a trainer who isn't completely used to the very bidable, extremely flashy working shepherds and malinois. I find with huskies it can be tricker to give clear corrections, because their drives and motivations are different than shepherds- I have both. I use a totally different training approach for my husky- hard to explain here, but it took me a while to figure him out.
> 
> Consider getting into dog pulling sports with Tofu- might suit his natural nature better than shepherd sports? If I remember correctly there are a few canicross events near Montreal.
> 
> He is just beautiful- I think with a bit of help you'll be fine. What you're seeing I really do think is coming from his Samoyed side- they are very smart, but also quite independent and want to please themselves. I am seeing mostly the northern breed behaviors in this video.


*AKC*
German Shepherd Dog: smart, confident, courageous, eager to please
Samoyed: gentle, adaptable, friendly, independent

Right! I keep forgetting that he's half-Samoyed because he looks so much like a shepherd! I'm hoping that he'll keep the friendly outgoing Samoyed nature as he matures. If you can put it into words, I'd love to hear your different method on your husky. It's true that when I work with Tofu, he's working for the food reward and not the praise or pets. He actually pulls away when I offer a pet instead of food reward - is this the husky motivation you were speaking about? What do you notice in the video that is attributable to Samoyed vs ill-mannered dog? 

Canicross looks more up my alley; I've read that I should wait until 18 months before running. I have seen them running on the mountain in Montreal. Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

adora155 said:


> Wait, are you telling me that he DOESN'T have a serious itch to scratch and is just protesting/biding time? He does sit and randomly scratch sometimes, but not often... I did let him offleash this week on a 30 minute trail to practice recall; he never wandered far, kept checking back on me and came back on recall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure he is half samoyed? I don't see it.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

adora155 said:


> Wait, are you telling me that he DOESN'T have a serious itch to scratch and is just protesting/biding time? He does sit and randomly scratch sometimes, but not often... I did let him offleash this week on a 30 minute trail to practice recall; he never wandered far, kept checking back on me and came back on recall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have always been a bit of an "animal geek" and I like reading about canine behavior... 

The sit down/scratch behavior is often a sign of confusion, or a sign that they don't really want to do what you're telling them to do, or just mentally blipping out. I noticed my dog would do that when he got a bit bored with training (i.e. at our OB class, which was 60 min) or when he didn't want to listen to me (I don't want to go that way, I wanna go this way!). I think his threshold for repetition & training is lower than a pure GSD would be!

Northern breeds are famous for having the "what's in it for me" attitude to training...so training involving treats often makes more sense to them that just pleasing their owner. They are not trustworthy offleash because sometimes they decide that running off is a bigger reward than hanging around to do a training exercise with you. Northern breed owners are usually lower in their training expectations... (GSDs are famous as a trainable breed, will obey a first command over 95% of the time - huskies & probably samoyeds come a lot lower down on that list!)

Huskies/northern breeds are generally good and friendly with other dogs, due to the history of working together in packs. They are known for their rough neck-grabbing play style, but it's always with "good humor".

All that said - 
my mix generally has his shepherd personality as more dominant. He is not a runner and he is serious, obedient. However from knowing him, I feel that he wouldn't be good in the obedience ring. If I had to choose a "sport" for him to do, I'd choose tracking/trailing (a sport with more freedom and independence and movement for the dog). (But I'm so busy driving my kid to music, debate, etc that there's no way I'm signing up the dog for extracurricular activities too, ha! Sorry Rumo.) I think your dog would like Canicross!


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

To summarize, I guess it would be like:

Owner: Do this!
GSD: Right! Gotcha! Done!

Owner: Do this!
Northern Breed: hmm. Is this a good idea?** Do I get something for this? Do I have to? well, ok.

**The general story is that when pulling the sleds, the dogs were expected to make their own decision about the way over the ice. So if handler yells "Mush!" and they won't go (thin ice) it actually saved everybody's life...

Anyway maybe it's good to learn about Tofu's "other side" (if he is indeed half-Samoyed), so you get the full picture of him.


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## cvamoca (Jul 12, 2019)

GSDchoice said:


> To summarize, I guess it would be like:
> 
> Owner: Do this!
> GSD: Right! Gotcha! Done!
> ...



You're right about pretty much all of this, but mushers don't say Mush, we say "HIKE!"
Huskies are knuckle heads, they don't work for free and they don't generally work off leash, because the head goes down and they go. They are made to run. They don't have a huge need to please people, not like German Shepherds, although my first Obedience trainer had an incredible Siberian Husky, made all the other dogs look like chumps. But that's pretty unusual for huskies in general. I'm not sure if Samoyeds are as husky-ish as Siberians or Malamutes as I've never dealt with them.

All that said, he looks to me more like a white Shiloh Shepherd than a Samoyed/GSD cross, with the exception of his high tail.

Tofu is holding you hostage, OP--he is claiming you like he claims a toy--your arm/hand is as much a toy to him as anything. You HAVE to get him off this behaviour, because he has no respect for you. You need to get bigger, and way more serious regarding corrections. Grabbing you is non negotiable, and just standing there submissively while he chomps is letting him "win" the game of claiming you. Best of luck.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

He just looks like a BBS/ long coat white shepherd to me but does he have the samoyed tail carriage? I didn't notice it in the video but I was looking at the other end of him


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Yes I see A purebred Berger blanc which is known to be more dog friendly. I don’t see any Samoyed in there. My aunts had Samoyeds- sammies and my mom has American eskimos -look like Minnie samoyeds- both breeds have tail carriages that are curved over the back most of the time. Samoyeds tails are most often curled over the back and not that long either also have a very short muzzle, more of a thicker fluffy type coat and very thick boned. My male Gsd carries his tail high also at times with it curled (not over the back like a samoyed) -it is like his antennae.

Adolescent dogs get to an age where they can test you and if they are blowing off any well known instruction given by you they need a collar pop correction followed up with a reward when they listen. I would get rid of the harness and only use a correction collar. You can not correct him with a harness and using your hands will only excite him more. When I want to take something out of his mouth I first practice without distractions. Open mouth place a treat in there. Then if he takes something I switch with a food treat. You never want to create scenarios where you are fighting with your dog but always set them up to succeed in what you want. 

This Berger blanc suisse video when they are all trotting around the ring reminds me of a snow storm lol! My son loves white gsds and bb’s so we looking but decided on Luna. Bikejoring , Canicross, Sledding all fun. 
Bb-
https://youtu.be/Ok5T-FetG8I
Bb-
https://youtu.be/gIZRjOkEnVg

- samoyeds 
https://youtu.be/FVz0hm0BPj8


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> Yes I see A purebred Berger blanc which is known to be more dog friendly. I don’t see any Samoyed in there. My aunts had Samoyeds- sammies and my mom has American eskimos -look like Minnie samoyeds- both breeds have tail carriages that are curved over the back most of the time. Samoyeds tails are most often curled over the back and not that long either also have a very short muzzle, more of a thicker fluffy type coat and very thick boned. My male Gsd carries his tail high also at times with it curled (not over the back like a samoyed) -it is like his antennae.
> 
> Adolescent dogs get to an age where they can test you and if they are blowing off any well known instruction given by you they need a collar pop correction followed up with a reward when they listen. I would get rid of the harness and only use a correction collar. You can not correct him with a harness and using your hands will only excite him more. When I want to take something out of his mouth I first practice without distractions. Open mouth place a treat in there. Then if he takes something I switch with a food treat. You never want to create scenarios where you are fighting with your dog but always set them up to succeed in what you want.
> 
> ...


I think I have seen this first video before. I just watched a few minutes of it and it's sad! These dogs can't be handled! Especially that very first dog.

I don't do conformation but my dog stands for the AKC obedience exam and is unbothered by it. @dogfaeries this isn't how conformation dogs should behave, is it?


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

8:49 seems like the first dog who isn't bothered by the judge? But then tries to poop in the ring.

10:30 is a dog that I like the way he handles himself. 11:40 too.

13:40 here comes naughty pants who was chewing on his handler in the leopard print earlier. And he won't let judge handle him either and doesn't seem to behave for his handler either.n And holy moly when he trots afterward it looks a little like Adora's video. 

Well it makes me a little happy that my favorite dog with the lady in the black skirt looks like won the class? I lost track of who else was who.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I hate to see that kind of behavior, and I’ve seen many dogs excused from the ring for not letting the judge handle them. There’s a difference between a young dog that hasn’t settled down and is kind of bouncy and squirmy, and a dog that skitters away when you try to examine them. Temperament.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

I’ve never seen BB, and know nothing about them. They look sort of like a white shepherd, but their movement is totally different. They all move from the elbow. Pretty dogs.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Wow, those are some gorgeous dogs... I love my breed but, maybe a more laid back option for when I'm old and tired of the drivey shepherds. https://www.danceswithwolvesranch.com/


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Thecowboysgirl You have watched more then me. I saw some real nervy skittish dogs but just skimmed and fast forwarded the video. No dogs should act like that in a ring or anywhere. My son loves white shepherds and the bbs . I remember looking at the bbs in a few videos some lines can be more nervy then others I remember reading. I would imagine because of the gene pool with color they might have more health issues I don’t know to much about them at all. I decided to get Luna but in general they look like a nice dog.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Saco said:


> Wow, those are some gorgeous dogs... I love my breed but, maybe a more laid back option for when I'm old and tired of the drivey shepherds. https://www.danceswithwolvesranch.com/


My same thoughts. Not sure if they have protective instincts. I saw this on Pinterest years ago. My son fell in love first site. I thought was a white gsd at first and was confused about the two. Gorgeous dogs. They do look just like samoyeds when they are puppies.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> Saco said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, those are some gorgeous dogs... I love my breed but, maybe a more laid back option for when I'm old and tired of the drivey shepherds. https://www.danceswithwolvesranch.com/
> ...


My dog is registered with AKC as a white GSD and to me he looks much more like a GSD than those BBS in the video. He is not long coat and he is longer than tall, while a lot of the BBS look more square to me and definitely less rear angulation than my dog.

I believe my dog's breeder is on board with white shepherds being their own breed separate from GSD. He is very GSD like. He is a great watch dog and has the same "eye" for things out of the ordinary and willingness to warn off with a big booming bark. I doubt he would stand up in a real fight but a lot of them probably wouldnt.


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## Crystal DeVries (Oct 28, 2019)

What I saw was you throwing the ball, and you actually fetching the ball.
Try using the training lead and only tossing the ball so far while still in control of the lead, calling the dog to return and enforcing it with the lead.

For my shepherd, and probably many others... you have to be the dominant one. What I saw was the dog being in control and dominating you. 
Everyone will train how they feel comfortable, but in that situation where the dog kept lunging at you with an open mouth, your voice should have been a lot more firm. I nipped that in the butt fairly quickly by showing dominance, (now some may not agree), but I knocked mine to the ground similar to how a dog would.. so more or less pushing her over... until she was submissive. And no there was no cruelty or torture or the dog yelping in any way shape or form. I let her know my boundaries and haven't had a problem with that ever since. Every dog will be different, mine is still a pup, but knows we do not grab from my humans.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Thecowboysgirl I suppose that is why they name bb’s a different breed it would make sense to me after reading mote about them as they do look different more like a artic Shepherd. I knew a few White German shepherds and they are german shepherds to me no question and always will be. To me they are a white version of American show lines - not all asl’s are severely angulated. If I wanted to stray from the gsd breed but stay within the realm I would consider the Berger blanc i was wondering if they had protective instincts. I know the white shepherd does the ones I knew had that instinct.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> @Thecowboysgirl I suppose that is why they name bb’s a different breed it would make sense to me after reading mote about them as they do look different more like a artic Shepherd. I knew a few White German shepherds and they are german shepherds to me no question and always will be. To me they are a white version of American show lines - not all asl’s are severely angulated. If I wanted to stray from the gsd breed but stay within the realm I would consider the Berger blanc i was wondering if they had protective instincts. I know the white shepherd does the ones I knew had that instinct.


Well the somewhat weird part is....unless I am wrong if you import an FCI BBS and then register it with AKC it will be registered as GSD.

But I guess it makes sense as there is no other breed in the foundation for BBS than a german shepherd....


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

I just watched Adora's video again ( to see if he looked like a Berger Blanc!). 
I think the first time I watched it, I had sound turned down (it was late here).

At 1:57 - is he actually growling at her? 
For those few seconds, he seems truly angry/frustrated.
Or is it play growl...since we can't see his eyes/mouth/face clearly, hard to tell.

Anyway he's big for a samoyed mix! 
Samoyeds are generally medium-size dogs?
But then again, so are huskies - but my mix weighs in at 75 lbs and about 26" tall at shoulder. 
(I know this because we had carefully measured him to find a crate that would allow him to lie down flat on his side)


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

@Thecowboysgirl I was not aware of that. I a Read d they came from the same origins I would of thought there was something else in there. Interesting so a another line of a German Shepherd ? with a different standard and they are not considered a bb if they are bred to a Akc white gsd in regards to the FCI? It does get weird. Lol


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Jenny720 said:


> @Thecowboysgirl I was not aware of that. I a Read d they came from the same origins I would of thought there was something else in there. Interesting so a another line of a German Shepherd ? with a different standard and they are not considered a bb if they are bred to a Akc white gsd in regards to the FCI? It does get weird. Lol



Well @Whiteshepherds maybe could help out here if I have this right or not. But I am 99% sure there is nothing behind a BBS but a white GSD, but now they breed to their own standard and so the dogs are starting to look different.

FCI recognizes BBS as a separate breed from GSD. AKC does not. 

AKC only has a German Shepherd dog in their registry. UKC will register a BBS as a "White Shepherd" which is a separate thing in UKC but UKC still also recognizes White GSDs-- I think their definition of the difference is whether the dog has color GSDs in the first couple of generations of the pedigree.

https://www.ukcdogs.com/single-registration-requirements-white-shepherd


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Ah okay I remember asking this question before kind of making more sense.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

GSDchoice said:


> At 1:57 - is he actually growling at her?
> For those few seconds, he seems truly angry/frustrated.
> Or is it play growl...since we can't see his eyes/mouth/face clearly, hard to tell.
> 
> ...


Yes, he's growling. But I assume that it's play (but what do I know?) because he flops over on his side while pulling on my sleeve. If it's aggression, then he'd be making himself tall.

If measuring correctly, I think Tofu is 28" tall to the shoulders (definitely a lot bigger than a Samoyed) but only weighs about 58 pounds.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> 13:40 here comes naughty pants who was chewing on his handler in the leopard print earlier. And he won't let judge handle him either and doesn't seem to behave for his handler either.n And holy moly when he trots afterward it looks a little like Adora's video.


LOL Yup, I definitely recognized that "I'm so bored, let's bite the handler" behaviour of Mr. Naughty Pants to be exactly like Tofu. The handler looks just like me - allowing it. SO THIS is what I look like... :frown2:


Very true that these dogs are too scared of the handling. I feel bad for them with their tails curled between their legs.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, you're right - at 13:40 is exactly what Tofu does! 
That dog even closed his mouth (lightly, being bossy but not aggressive) around her forearm!

Adora, why do you think your dog is 50% Samoyed? 
Looking at the two breeds in the two videos, and especially your dog's big long fluffy tail, I did think he looked more BB as people pointed out...and his size too, seems pretty standard for a BB?

And here's some light fluffy viewing (maybe not quite as fluffy as Tofu :


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## 4K9Mom (Jun 19, 2019)

I haven’t read all the comments.

Two questions. Has this dog been trained “give” (vs take) and has he been trained “gentle”?

We can’t ask our dogs to do what they’ve never been trained to do. 

I have a working lines puppy. He easily gives up his toys because I have made it a point to train him to do so. He’s also seven mouths old. He rarely nails by accident and he never bites on humans intentionally. 

Tonight, he was lying next to me, grabbing my Sweatshirt sleeve, being careful not to touch the human inside, and placing my hand on his chest, tummy or thigh, whatever he wanted rubbed. We went at this game for about 20 minutes. He came up with it all by himself.

Is he a genius? Nah, he’s just been trained to be gentle around human skin. I am training him 100% no contact with all human skin except me. With me, he has to use absolute bite inhibition. Not biting down at all.

If you need, I can explain how these are done in detail. 

(But if you’re planning on just sticking a prong (Or ecolllar) on the dog for this behavior , honestly, I’m not going to bother writing it all out. I don’t believe in punishing playful dogs, especially when they haven’t been trained what they’re being punished for. I know my explanation for training “gentle” posted by me as 3K9Mom is floating around here somewhere, but I can certainly rewrite it up for you).

Let me know.


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## markhenley (Apr 23, 2018)

First, what beautiful dog and such a character -- I love that dog! I'm telling you right now, that dog is highly trainable. He WANTS leadership from you, and you're not giving him what he needs. 

My second thought is that this dog is not aggressive at all (else you would be typing from the hospital). This dog is totally playing with you and you're letting him get away with behavior you do not want because you haven't told him what you think is good and bad. The result: He's having quite a bit of fun at your expense. 

I didn't see you tell him in a way that was meaningful (to a dog) that you don't want him doing that. You stood there and let him gnaw on your hand. Are you kidding me? You are being VERY unfair, I would categorize it as almost cruel, because you are shaping highly irresponsible behavior that will get him in trouble and NOT correcting him. How does HE know it's wrong? From his perspective, it's a game. 

Keep in mind: You ****CANNOT!!! **** break a self re-enforcing behavior using positive re-enforcement. The reason is that the dog will always drift back to what makes him feel good unless you identify (mark/correct) the behavior. You cannot replace that self re-enforcing behavior with positive re-enforcement. That doesn't mean you beat him or bonk him on the head or some such foolishness. He needs a stern NO and probably a physical correction. Don't jerk his head off. And make sure you say "NO", then wait for a moment, then correct him. 

The next time he plays nicely, you mark that with a YES, wait 1 second and give him a payout. When he nibbles on your hand, sternly say "NO", correct him and withhold his reward.

Eventually, you won't have to correct him and you can use a negative - voice only marker. I suspect with this dog that behavior will vanish within a week with a slight change in your handling. 

This brings me to my final point: You have shaped this dog's behavior to ignore you, bite your hand for fun, to do what he wants when he wants with no repercussions. Now you're kind of stuck. If you change the contract too drastically now, this dog will likely become upset and his stress level will go up. It is then that you could end up taking the brunt of your mistake. It kind of depends on the dog. Don't blame him. He's been allowed to act way. Now you have to work twice as hard to sensibly change his behavior.

Look at your community colleges, they have obedience classes. Go to PetSmart (Yeah, whatever for those people booing me... ). You just need some assistance in how to correct this behavior (marking it with positive/negative markers). Yes, even the trainers at Petsmart can do that, so don't hassle me. 

This is a VERY cool dog with a lot of personality. You should do this right away. You don't want anything to happen to this very beautiful and intelligent creature. 

Look up Michael Ellis on Google. (michaelellisschool.com) Spend an hour watching his philosophy of dog training. It will explain what works/doesn't work. He has some specific examples.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

*Choke collar giving results*

Just an update to everyone:
I've had John Bayreuther, the French Ring trainer, assess my dog 17 days ago. He is the 5th trainer I've seen. Contrary to a previous assessment by another, he sees zero aggression and zero territorial behaviours which confirms what most have written here after I had posted videos. He believes that a prong is too severe for my dog and taught me to use a choke collar. After only 2 corrections, Tofu no longer jumps up to bite my arm for a game of tug-o-war. He still will sometimes mouth my jacket but NO stops him and he sits immediately. My trainer said that Tofu was testing me and that I need to be vigilant for behaviour changes as he will test me in other matters since this area has been shutdown. It might be adolescence, but he's been blowing off COME and skips out of reach for me to grab leash/long line as well as twice ignoring another command (SIDE - where he comes and sits on my side) until I pick up the leash and then he trots over and does it without protest. Work in progress. I really wished that I had met this trainer 4 months ago as I feel that I've wasted months on improper direction :frown2:

Positive-only solution: Tofu and I also did a group focus course (before training on the choke) that was 100% positive-only training. He got excited there with restrained recalls and jumped and tug-o-war my arm when he'd reach me. I asked Lyne (Dogzworth) for advice and she said to wait for him to put all 4 paws on the ground, then click & treat. I said that it can last up to 5 minutes. She says to wait it out. You see the type of non-functional advice I get from positive-only trainers?! This is probably why you're all shocked that I allow him to bite. I'm so glad to be working with a choke collar now.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Good on you for preserving!Now you'll make some good progress.Thank you for the update


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## sebrench (Dec 2, 2014)

Awesome news! Your new trainer sounds like a keeper! Thanks for coming back to update this thread.


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## adora155 (Oct 16, 2019)

GSDchoice said:


> Wow, you're right - at 13:40 is exactly what Tofu does!
> That dog even closed his mouth (lightly, being bossy but not aggressive) around her forearm!
> 
> Adora, why do you think your dog is 50% Samoyed?
> Looking at the two breeds in the two videos, and especially your dog's big long fluffy tail, I did think he looked more BB as people pointed out...and his size too, seems pretty standard for a BB?


My trainer said that a lot of the little annoyances that I'm having with Tofu will disappear once I've established immovable rank with him. He'll stop trying to be an opportunist.

The people from whom I got Tofu said he's Samoyed x BB. I called a phone number of what I believe is the breeder to inquire about his background; but they never returned my calls. I agree that he looks 100% BB. Whenever people on the street ask his breed, I just say BB.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I'm so glad you got some meaningful help. He really seems like a great dog who needed some boundaries and it sounds like this person has taught you to do that. 

Ignoring behavior like that for 5 minutes straight and waiting with a clicker is close to the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Thank goodness you have a better trainer now. When I hear stuff like that it makes me crazy because these trainers think they are doing what's kindest for the dog--- and I think it's the opposite! Not only do you not deserve to be used as a chew toy by your dog, but a big wolfy looking dog can lose his life for behavior like that if it goes on long enough--- all he needed was the right kind of correction to know it isn't acceptable and won't be tolerated and now you guys can go on and hopefully have a long happy life together. What's more humane to everyone involved!?

Wish you and Tofu the best.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

So glad you found a trainer that is working for you and beautiful Tofu. 

I'm surprised at Lyne's advice- I thought she had more experience with GSD. Oh, well--- it sounds like it all worked out and you are getting the help you need. Thanks for the update. 

It's too bad it can be so challenging to find good trainers, this is one of the main reasons people give up on a dog like Tofu- not because the dog is bad, but because the trainer they seek out for expert advice really hasn't a clue how to properly address behaviors that are very common and even expected in shepherds. 

Sometimes, I actually do think trainers should be regulated or require some state certification. I mean, I need certain certs and continuing ed to do my work which is arguably far less critical (as far as human health and safety) than dog training. I guess that would open up a can of worms, though. Anyway, glad it all is working out! Good for you for finding the right trainer.


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## GSDchoice (Jul 26, 2016)

Wow, you were persistent to sort through five trainers! 
So great that you found one that works for you and Tofu.

One note in defense of Positive: they've done studies that show positively-trained dogs working in the field will try more options, learn faster, and are more persistent. It's desirable to train your dog in a way that doesn't shut down their own initiative/thinking process. A dog that "works out" a way to earn its reward, is in the end more self-motivated and self-teaching than one has been taught that only One way is right. So it depends on what you want out of your dog...

Well, I've only taught my dog basic commands + house manners, so I'll shut up now!


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