# Alpha Roll



## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

I am having an email exchange with someone about alpha rolling your dog. It is not something that I do or believe in using but the person I am having the conversation with does believe in using “the roll” as a training method in some cases, and has done so with great success (his words). I am curious to know if anyone else still use the alpha roll as a training method?? Or have used in the past and what made you stop using it?

I am also curious to know if anyone knows why the Monks of New Skete expressed regret at having included the alpha roll technique in their book. It is because they no longer believed in the method or rather because 'untrained' people were attempting it willy-nilly and it was not giving the desired results?


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Not sure why the Monks backed away from this and a few other of their teachings other than to say that newer more gentle ways that actually worked better came to light. We all learn and grow, maybe that's what happened for them? 

I do not use the "alpha roll" myself.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I would never us it on any of my dogs.. Nor does the training facility I work at advocate it.. And I work/train with some very experienced trainers..


I'd be curious as to what great success this person has had and under what conditions they thought a dog deserved to be rolled??


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

The old pro "alpha roll" teachings were based upon (misinterpreted) studies of wolf behavior. It was cutting edge at the time, but has since been discredited by futher studies showing that indeed wolves don't go around rolling one another. And a greater understanding of canine behavior amongst both dogs and wolves, and people realizing that while dogs and wolves share many characteristics, a dog is NOT a funny looking wolf and, most importantly, it is not so stupid to think humans are really funny looking wolves or dogs and therefore we don't need to try to communicate to our dogs like we're members of the same species.

I have used the alpha roll exactly once. When an upity, full of himself 2yo male decided to issue an all out challenge and launched at me. I had no leash, and ended up catching him mid air, doing a hip roll and body slaming him to the ground, and then holding him there while choking him and sitting on him until he gave in. This was a very extreme case and in that case the dog initiated the confrontation (which is the only case in which a higher ranking wolf would roll a lower ranking one). It happened once, and he got the message and we never had another problem.

I would never initiate such a confrontation with a dog, and I certainly wouldn't go around rolling a dog just for the heck of it in order to show the dog I'm boss. It's inappropriate, cruel, a good way to get yourself bit, and an excellent way to teach your dog to distrust and fear you. There are much better, gentler and, most importantly, easily understood by the dog, ways to establish leadership.


----------



## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

That is my feeling too. I would never do that to any of my dogs it seems cruel. But from what he is telling me they have used "this method with tremendous success in dealing with dog aggression". I fail to see the connection between alpha rolling your dog and dog aggression..


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I will confess that I've alpha rolled one of my dogs, one time. Sasha was extremely food/toy aggressive when I got her, and really decided to take it out on my parent's old dog (a female). Sasha would attack Scootie without any warning growl or provocation (Scootie would just be walking past a doorway, eyes averted), grabbing her neck and shaking to kill. 

After having witnessed and broken up one such incident, the second time she tried it, I grabbed Sasha mid-leap and did pretty much what Chris described above. I scared the pee of out that dog. That TOTALLY ended any aggression issues Sasha had around other dogs. It was like it finally clicked in her head that I would NOT tolerate that behavior.

I have never done it since and would never do it again unless it was a life-or-limb situation where I was protecting myself or another animal.

ETA: I re-read Chris' post and I didn't sit on her or choke her, just had her by the scruff and slammed her hard to the floor on her back. I let her up when she got the hint.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: DinoBlueThat is my feeling too. I would never do that to any of my dogs it seems cruel. But from what he is telling me they have used "this method with tremendous success in dealing with dog aggression". I fail to see the connection between alpha rolling your dog and dog aggression..


Well, any sufficiently horrible consequence can extinguish a behavior. Dog goes off on another dog and gets rolled, beaten senseless or any number of things and it may well learn NOT to go off on the other dog. 

Any behavior change is due to the dog experiencing a significant physical and mental trauma at the hands of his trainer, and wanting to avoid that again. It's not the roll itself that solved the problem, it's not some mystical way to communicate with the dog in dog language... it's just a really bad thing the dog wants to avoid again. 

Fear of consequences can be a very good motivator for changing behavior. But it's not the gentlest way to do it, most often isn't the best way to do it, and it doesn't deal with the underlying cause of the behavior. Treating the symptoms alone isn't reliable or going to hold up over time and any situation.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I know, Chris. I just used that as a stop-gap measure to get her issues under control so that I *could* use gentler methods. After that incident, I used a lot of positive redirection to sort out her problems. Today she is great, friendly, and isn't afraid to properly correct a dog for inappropriate behavior.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanml
> 
> ETA: I re-read Chris' post and I didn't sit on her or choke her, just had her by the scruff and slammed her hard to the floor on her back. I let her up when she got the hint.


Just to clarify, I didn't choke him to the point where he couldn't breath or anything like that that some trainers will advocate for "dealing with dominant dogs". It was more a good, two hand hold on his neck to try to imobilize his head because he was still fighting, thrashing, snarling and trying to bite.. and that was the only way to keep myself out of the ER. As it was, my mom who was visiting at the time and saw the whole thing go down had already grabbed the cordless phone and was ready to dial 911. As soon as he got the hint and quit acting like an #&$*%, I let him up.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanmlI know, Chris. I just used that as a stop-gap measure to get her issues under control so that I *could* use gentler methods. After that incident, I used a lot of positive redirection to sort out her problems. Today she is great, friendly, and isn't afraid to properly correct a dog for inappropriate behavior.


Sorry, my post ended up after yours but I was responding to DinoBlue's comments of what the trainer was using as his justification for rolling dogs. It wasn't directed at you.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Wow, that really sounds intense! Glad you didn't get hurt!


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Oh okay


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanmlWow, that really sounds intense! Glad you didn't get hurt!


It was. Though my mom certainly did overreact.







And I never thought I'd end up putting years of Hapkido training to use in that particular way... to hip throw my own dog.

It was a very good learning experience though. He's one of the relatively rare dogs who will try to move up the ranks if given a chance, and I was inexperienced enough at the time that he got some mixed signals from me that made him think the opportunity was there, and a few chances to give it a try.

I've since learned much better was of teaching respect, trust and leadership that keep things crystal clear to the dog, eliminate any confusion or perceived chances for the dog to advance in rank, without ever getting into arguments with the dog or having to resport to such extreme physical measures.


----------



## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quote:I fail to see the connection between alpha rolling your dog and dog aggression..


Me either..

A while back I was out at a pet store and this gentlemen came in and was alpha rolling his dog because it was dog aggressive.. Well, needless to say he rolled that dog several times in the course of his visit and the behavior never stopped..


----------



## DinoBlue (Apr 11, 2007)

Thank you Chris (I was hoping you would answer). I find this very interesting. So in this instance this trainier is saying that he will use it in dealing with strange dogs if he thinks it is needed. He does aggree that this is not a method that should be used by the general public because it is unsafe done the wrong way. But even in dealing with an older gsd that has dominance issues there must be other just as effective ways to deal with that? And safer..

I have seen dogs on the SchH field that have been given a correction they did not understand go after the handler and have seen how that been dealt with and there has been NO rolling of dogs.


----------



## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

The best written article explaining how the alpha roll does not make sense in my opinion is written by Lou Castle. MRL posted it a while back. Here it is... http://www.loucastle.com/dominance.htm .

The best part of it is...

_"If you watch some dogs at play, for example at a dog park or the zoo, or watch the Discovery Channel. Use a Video Camera (or record the TV) so you can play it back several times. You'll see what at first looks like an alpha roll but when you examine if carefully it's not even close. When dogs do this, the dominant dog doesn't force the submissive dog to do anything. It's the submissive dog who's doing all the work. The dominant dog puts his foot up on the submissive dog's shoulder or back and the submissive dog rolls himself under the dominant dog. 

And so when you do the alpha roll thing you're doing something that's completely foreign to the dog, rather than something he's familiar with. You're showing him that you're bigger and stronger than him, but he already knows that. It's the action of a bully, not a fair and just leader."_

Spend some time with your dogs and see if this is not true.


----------



## Vinnie (Sep 4, 2001)

Never read the article by Lou Castle but I can so relate to the quote you just posted! I see this behavior all the time between my Dalton & Scooby. I even have pictures of the two boys doing this. Dalton is the dominate dog and Scooby the submissive. I have never once seen Dalton “roll” Scooby. Scooby will lie down in front of Dalton and roll over, Dalton just stands there in his very macho - proud stance.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have never used it, mainly because I am not comfortable with it, nor am I comfortable working with dogs that are aggressive or pushy enough to possibly need it (assuming alpha rolling helps aggression, which I really don't think it does). It's one of those things I just choose not to get into.

The only incident I've ever had with my dogs was a few weeks ago, my dogs were playing with Deirdre's Samson. My dog Coke and Samson love to play, but sometimes Coke just gets too worked up after a while. Neither dog was biting, but they were both sort of pushing on each other and barking. My DH grabbed Coke's hips and pulled him away. He had a little time out too cool off and that was that. They started playing again and were fine. I suppose that would be an instance where an alpha roller might have alpha rolled one or both of the dogs.

Personally, I do my best to avoid or redirect situations that get out of control. I've never really tested my dogs for food aggression because they eat out of their own bowls at the same time in their crates (doors open). The often share kongs, nylabones, or investigate each other's bowls and there haven't been any problems. In situations like above, now I know what signs to watch for when Coke is getting too hyper and we can have him chill out a bit before returning to play, rather than letting the situation escalate to the point where an alpha roll is needed. 

That, and I really don't feel like I have to "prove" anything to my dogs. If they can't respect me and enjoy my presence based on our training and activities together, than there's probably something *I* have done wrong.

Now if my dog ever went after another person, yes I would do something drastic, but I don't think that's the same as using an alpha roll for training.

ETA: I just read the quote and I totally agree. Coke rolls all the time, but HE rolls for Kenya. It *looks* vicious, but HE is the one rolling. She never forces him and she always lets him get back up.


----------



## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanml
> 
> I have never done it since and would never do it again unless it was a life-or-limb situation where I was protecting myself or another animal.


I did something like that recently, but I'm not sure that alpha rolls aplies here. It was more the case of a very weak nerved dog, excited after fence-fight with another dog that lounged at my face when I touched him. I grabbed him by the scruff and held him firmly against the floor, but it was more because the dog kept trying to bite me, so to hold him that way until he showed me submissive signals was not a matter of training, it was a matter of health and self-preservation.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

^^ I think in those situations, it's justified. I wouldn't really call that an alpha roll, more like "get OFF me!". 

When I volunteered at the shelter a lot, this lab mix jumped on my back as I turned to steer him back towards the shelter. He started biting my neck and then lunged again, biting my rib cage, hips, thigh, ankles. Then he grabbed onto my upper arm and pulled so hard it felt like he was gnawing my arm apart. I could not get him off me since he was basically my size so I just went limp until he let go. He had seen my DH walking another shelter dog in the distance and must've gone all reactive on me. DH kept coming closer with his dog and my dog kept biting. Finally DH realized what was happening and came to peel him off of me. When I went over the incident with the behaviorist, she said I would have been justified in rolling the dog. She's a more traditional trainer. However he was too big, I never had the chance to block him and roll him since he came at me from behind originally. Luckily it was winter so I was wearing layers. There were many puncture marks and very deep bruising on my left arm (took months to heel), but the punctures were more like scrapes with deep bruises, no tissue torn off. After the adrenaline rush, the next few days I felt very sick, exhausted, and depressed. If I had an opportunity to push him off and roll him I would have, but he just kept lunging and pulling at me so hard, trying to fight back just escalated it.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

Wow, that's scary! Good thing your DH had self control -- mine would have killed the dog!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah luckily I'm not the type to freak out. I just tucked my head and stayed perfectly still. I kinda freaked out after though. I think DH would have done more to my dog but he had his own dog, he ran over and said "take this dog!" as he grabbed my dog off of me and dragged him back to the shelter. I just stood there with the dog he was walking for a few minutes to regain composure. His dog was like, "hi! what are we doing now!?"

Honestly I haven't volunteered there much since the incident. It has nothing to do with the dogs, I am not afraid of dogs, but I guess I don't see eye to eye with the behaviorist. Her response was that I should have pushed him off my back and rolled him. Maybe so, but when a very large dog jumps on me from behind, my first instinct is to cower and protect myself, not get into a physical altercation WITH the dog. I was also worried because the dog remained available for adoption. When I told some other volunteers what happened, they said he had also been rough with them, very mouthy and pushy. I didn't want him euthanized, but I wanted to make sure these incidents were part of his file and that any people not experienced with dominant dogs or people with kids knew about these incidents. I sat in on an adoption interview the next week and a young family wanted to adopt him as a first time dog. There was nothing in the file about the incidents. I told the adoption counselor what happened and showed her the huge black and purple bruises on my arms and she did not approve the family, thank God.


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

That is VERY scary! Glad you were there!


----------



## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

When I first started training nearly 20 years ago, alpha rolls were a common way of dealing with any perceived aggression. A dog growled? You grabbed the dog by either side of the face, flipped it onto its back, leaned over it and held it down while very firmly telling the dog that it was WRONG. It was a 100% force training method and to me had nothing to do with how two dogs related to each other in an acceptable dominant/submissive way. The dog being flipped was not willingly being submissive - he was held down until he gave in. Sometimes it took 10 minutes or more. It was not for the weak of heart or muscle!

And without fail, you would see a change in the dog pretty quickly. A couple of alpha rolls and the dog was thinking twice before reacting aggressively toward another dog. With some dogs it truly worked (although it did mean that they viewed you in a bit of a fearful way, which compromised your relationship even though at the time we didn't recognize that). With other dogs, though, it merely taught them to hide their dislike of other dogs and they stopped growling, snarling, hackling up, etc. Instead they bottled all that up and after a year or so we started seeing dogs go from being apparently calm to suddenly in full attack with no precursors. It was pretty frightening to see and it made you unable to trust the dog that you thought you'd "trained" away from the aggressive behaviors. I was lucky in that none of my dogs did that, but I certainly saw it in some of the other dogs in the club.

I will still use a modified version of an alpha roll on my own dogs if I deem it necessary. I'm not in the least bit afraid to correct my girls and in fact little Dora jumped on my 16 year old girl last week and I grabbed Dora on either side of her face (she's got a HUGE ruff of fur) and popped her right up off the floor so all four feet dangled, which to her is worse than an alpha roll. And I got in her face and explained to her in no uncertain terms that she is NOT to bite the old dog. And then I put her down and we went on with life and left the correction behind. I wouldn't recommend to anyone to do a correction like that with their dog but I know what works for each of my girls and the reason the five of them can be loose together in the house is that I keep a very strong leadership role. I AM the alpha bitch .. *L*

The alpha rolls hold the possibility of creating huge problems in dog behaviors especially if you don't know what you're doing. The dog can be traumatized, the human can be bit, and overall it's just not a great type of correction. I think it tends to create a level of mistrust in a dog, too, and why would we want to do that especially in a dog that's just learning? 

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## pinkanml (Sep 3, 2007)

I totally agree with you, Melanie! I'm not against being physical, but only if it's clear to the dog why it's being done, and it's something extremely important (such as safety & well-being of others) that they can NOT repeat again. For instance, if my well-trained dogs, who know not to jump, decided to jump on my 80-year old grandmother. They would immediately know they'd crossed a major line!

I also drop it right away and act as if nothing happened, no hard feelings because it's over with and done. I think that's the most important part, to just let it go, because then the dog will, too.


----------



## StGeorgeK9 (Jan 5, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: pinkanml
> I also drop it right away and act as if nothing happened, no hard feelings because it's over with and done. I think that's the most important part, to just let it go, because then the dog will, too.


Actually I think this is probably the part that gets people in trouble, is that they DONT drop it (at least in their body language).......and then carry their anger/frustration with the behavior in their body lanquage not even realizing this is being conveyed back to the dog.


----------



## IliamnasQuest (Aug 24, 2005)

Yes, I agree. It's so important to leave a correction behind once it's done with. Dogs don't understand the concept of being pissed off because of something that happened 20 minutes ago. But they certainly can tell when their person is angry with them, and it's completely unproductive to continue to fret and be upset when a dog has already moved past what happened.

Corrections, to me, are only truly effective when they're used at the exact moment that the behavior happens - and when they're of an appropriate intensity and then the correction is over and done with. In fact you get a much better result if you then go into something very positive that works opposite of the behavior that got them in trouble in the first place. In the case of my chow who bit the other chow, she was reprimanded and then we went right into some sits and downs and group exercises where she was working right next to the old dog that she'd just snapped at. Everyone did well, everyone was praised and rewarded and things are completely back to normal with no aggression problems continuing on. 

It really helps if you know your dogs extremely well, too. I know what kind of corrections are most effective on each dog, how hard to make the correction for it to be effective and how to move on past that so that the dogs don't focus too much on it. We all maintain a really good relationship because of this (which is pretty darn important when you 've got a group of dogs living together).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

I had a trainer who explained it this way (when someone asks about using it on his dog): 

The only time you ever see a wolf actively pin any other animal on its back in the wild is right before the wolf kills the animal. 

The alpha roll says to your dog "I will kill you." 

Is that the message we really want to send to our dogs? Does this make our dogs trust us more, and follow us willingly? Or does it create more problems? 


I don't know if he convinced the other guy, but it sure made sense to me.


----------



## blackbirdzach (Jan 13, 2008)

I have used this technique before and continue to use it in certain circumstances. I get as much flack for this as I do for my use of prong collars, but I still use both. 

The only time I use the roll anymore is if I have a dog lose it completely...and this rarely happens. If I'm working with a new dog or a dog that I know to have aggression issues with other dogs or people I will use this technique if the dog goes way out of control. 

Example; I'm holding the new dog and my neighbor/friend/whoever that is helping me has dog #2. When I see the dog I'm holding fixate on the other dog, I give a correction. If the dog goes completely bananas and doesn't respond to the correction then I will put the dog on it's side until it's tantrum passes then start over with the exercise. I've never had to roll a dog twice. 

Next time I get ahold of a really aggressive dog, I'll film a session with it.


----------



## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: blackbirdzachthen I will put the dog *on it's side *until it's tantrum passes then start over with the exercise.


As I understand it, the old alpha roll was putting a dog on its back. That's a pretty significant difference, IMO.


----------



## blackbirdzach (Jan 13, 2008)

One more note on this. If you are not comfortable 100% with this technique, do NOT attempt it. If you slip up even just a little when working with a highly aggressive dog and using this technique, the probability of you getting bit is very high.


----------



## blackbirdzach (Jan 13, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: blackbirdzachthen I will put the dog *on it's side *until it's tantrum passes then start over with the exercise.
> ...


Yeah, true. When I do use the "alpha roll" (never cared for the name personally) I don't view it as a punishment. It's more of a time out to break the dogs focus. Once he has regained his composue I restart the exercise.


----------



## BellatheDog (Apr 22, 2006)

I will also confess that I've alpha rolled a dog once. It was many years ago when alpha rolling was common. What made me stop was the look in the poor dogs eyes when I did it. He was looking up at me in bewilderment. I felt so bad that I did it I promised myself that I would never do that again. It's been over 20 years since I did that. I just make sure that I do not put myself in a postion to where alpha rolling would be the only and last method to use.


----------



## FourIsCompany (Jan 29, 2008)

Nothing should ever be done to a dog in anger or frustration. No punishment, correction or "alpha roll". 



> Originally Posted By: DinoBlueI am curious to know if anyone else still use the alpha roll as a training method??


I have never alpha rolled a dog myself. I have never needed to. And the only place I would think it appropriate is if the dog was freaking out and then, I _probably _wouldn't do it myself, but I can understand someone choosing to do it. As long as the dog isn't physically harmed and the person does it without anger and only rolls the dog onto its *side* (not its back) and releases the hold as soon as the dog stops struggling, I don't really have a problem with someone doing it to keep things under control or calm the dog.

BUT I have used the technique that Ian Dunbar calls "gentling" on my puppies. I didn't know what it was called then.







I just did what seemed natural when they were throwing a tantrum. 

Handling and Gentling 


> Quote:
> Tantrums
> 
> Should your pup struggle violently, or especially if he has a tantrum, you must not let go. Otherwise, your puppy will learn that if he struggles or throws a tantrum, he needn't calm down and be handled because the owner gives in. Bad news!





> Originally Posted By: DinoBlue
> I am also curious to know if anyone knows why the Monks of New Skete expressed regret at having included the alpha roll technique in their book.


From Wikipedia (but can be found elsewhere) 



> Quote:
> However, the monks themselves later expressed regret that they had included the alpha roll technique in the book, *as it was often taken out of context and misused.*


----------



## Sevastra (Mar 19, 2012)

BellatheDog said:


> I will also confess that I've alpha rolled a dog once. It was many years ago when alpha rolling was common. What made me stop was the look in the poor dogs eyes when I did it. He was looking up at me in bewilderment. I felt so bad that I did it I promised myself that I would never do that again. It's been over 20 years since I did that. I just make sure that I do not put myself in a postion to where alpha rolling would be the only and last method to use.


I too alpha rolled my puppy, he was around 4 months at the time. I was so stressed out I took the advice from my aunt, Who had a rottie, and she said it worked for her dog. I did it once, and he did calm down..the next time I did it, he started to shake and got so tense, I just felt like I would make him start fear biting when people came towards him if i continued it, and I felt terrible. I found speaking to him in a more calm, but firm voice he responded to better than anything else. If I didn't feel badly about doing it, honestly i might have continued it, but being as i did and assuming I'm passing that energy onto him, clearly I had no place doing it and would probably have the adverse effect. At this point, all i really have to do when he's chewing on something hes not supposed to, or into something, scratching at the rug, is say " Kaiser, NO"..he whines and mumbles, and walks away....he's very vocal.


----------



## AkariKuragi (Dec 19, 2011)

big_dog7777 said:


> _"If you watch some dogs at play, for example at a dog park or the zoo, or watch the Discovery Channel. Use a Video Camera (or record the TV) so you can play it back several times. You'll see what at first looks like an alpha roll but when you examine if carefully it's not even close. When dogs do this, the dominant dog doesn't force the submissive dog to do anything. It's the submissive dog who's doing all the work. The dominant dog puts his foot up on the submissive dog's shoulder or back and the submissive dog rolls himself under the dominant dog.
> 
> And so when you do the alpha roll thing you're doing something that's completely foreign to the dog, rather than something he's familiar with. You're showing him that you're bigger and stronger than him, but he already knows that. It's the action of a bully, not a fair and just leader."_


This is so true. The only time I feel an alpha roll is appropriate is if the dog is directly challenging you (like Chris's situation). Any other time it is you being a bully and throwing your weight around and does nothing but make your dog afraid of you. 

I saw a really interesting and funny example of a dog rolling for a more dominant dog. I was at the park with Lei Lani, my aunt's black lab, and we were walking behind a couple of older men and their two dogs. One was a Rottie and the other was a rather large yellow lab. Walking towards us was a group of women with three dachshunds. One of the dachshund's would react to any dogs it approached, and as it approached the men, the yellow lab immediately rolled over and exposed her stomach to the little dachshund. I couldn't help but laugh at the sight of such a big dog submitting to such a little one without them even coming within two feet of each other.


----------



## sheep (Dec 2, 2011)

IMO, rolling doesn't necessarily have to do with dominance, nor it would necessarily intimidate a dog. How alpha role is perceived by a dog depends on how he is rolled. If he's rolled when you're playing with him, and if he's familiar with you already, then it's more likely he's perceiving it as play. If you roll him aggressively, he will most likely perceive it as a threat and he would either submit, fight back or escape. If you just roll him neutrally, and if he's used to being handled, he will probably comply.

Also, a dog that rolls on the floor and offer you his belly might be either for submission/fear, appeasement, wanting a belly rub or simply playing.


----------



## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

sheep said:


> IMO, rolling doesn't necessarily have to do with dominance, nor it would necessarily intimidate a dog. *How alpha role is perceived by a dog depends on how he is rolled*.


Not really. If you're just rolling your dog over in play, or your dog is rolling himself over for a belly rub, then it's not an "alpha roll". The whole point of an alpha roll is to exert physical dominance over your dog, "show him who's boss", so to speak.


----------



## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

3K9Mom said:


> The only time you ever see a wolf actively pin any other animal on its back in the wild is right before the wolf kills the animal.
> 
> The alpha roll says to your dog "I will kill you."


Exactly right!!



3K9Mom said:


> Is that the message we really want to send to our dogs?


 Not me!




3K9Mom said:


> Does this make our dogs trust us more, and follow us willingly?


Not at all.


----------



## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

I would like to know the difference between alpha rolling and pinning.
When my dog was a pup I pinned her a few times when she was getting out of control. It was always brief and followed by stroking and massage. It seemed to work and she was OK for several days. As she matured it did not come up as something that needed to be done. 
I also notice that she tends to pin other dogs as a form of play. She never hurts them but it seems to be her goal. I find it hard to believe that a dog would bring that forward 2 years as an after-effect of her puppy experience.


----------



## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

I've never done an alpha roll on one of my dogs (or anybody's), but The Mate did to our husky a few weeks after he came to live with us at around 6 years old. Zeus had grabbed one of our cats and was shaking her hard, and The Mate just grabbed him and rolled him, while yelling. Not only did Zeus never try to bite or grab a cat again, but he because the doggy ambassador for new kittens from then on, and wouldn't allow other dogs to chase them. We both agree that was the one in a million times that it was needed and got the point across. Other than that, we've been much more positive trainers than not (though we don't mind corrections when used properly). 

Pinning vs alpha rolling - I think pinning a dog on it's side to calm it is different because you aren't neccessarily using discipline as much as you are giving the dog a 'time out' to break focus and pay attention to you. I've used pinning as a way to help my dogs learn to submit to things without being frightened, especially with massaging and stroking to calm them in conjunction. ALmost every dog we've had is very comfortable with showing us their belly for rubbing and in play, whether we've pinned them or not, which tells me that they aren't fearful from it.

TO me the alpha roll is the ultimate punishment that only needs to be used in life or death situations, and even then it can be dangerous as the dog is likely to fight for fear of its life.


----------

