# gentle giants german shepherds of arizona



## SilverBuck (Feb 28, 2013)

Hi, ive tried searching and have found no help, so i just made this thread.

Now i know some are avid defenders of the gsd breed and argue that the oversized breeding of them is looked down upon.
Well Ive already made up my mind on either going to royalair or gentlegiants of arizona.

My question is does anyone have one of their pups?
What size do they get at gentlegiants? Is it really going to be "oversized" or is it just going to be a little bit bigger than the show lines?

Any feedback on oversized breeders is greatly appreciated.
Thank you


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

If you've looked at the breed standard which covers the ENTIRE breed, not just showlines, anything over that is oversized. General thing is any GSD over 100lbs is considered oversized. To my knowledge, none on this board have a dog they intentionally got oversized from either breeder. You won't find many supporters on this board for dogs over standard. Theres a reason the standard is in place. Good luck in your search. I would ask the breeders for references and if they have any previous buyers who would be happy to speak with you.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

It sounds pretty much like a done-deal. I don't know of anyone with their dogs, but then I am way up here in SnowLand. Could you explain what it is you are looking for and what you like about these breeders in particular.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think Minnieski and Ruby Tuesday have Royalair Shepherds?


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

KZoppa said:


> If you've looked at the breed standard which covers the ENTIRE breed, not just showlines, anything over that is oversized. General thing is any GSD over 100lbs is considered oversized. To my knowledge, none on this board have a dog they intentionally got oversized from either breeder. You won't find many supporters on this board for dogs over standard. Theres a reason the standard is in place. Good luck in your search. I would ask the breeders for references and if they have any previous buyers who would be happy to speak with you.


Actually many of us have large dogs intentionally we just keep our mouths shut because we don't want to be jumped on. 

My boy is from Arizona but not from Gentle Giants. When he was younger he weighed 92#'s. Lately that has dropped and we are trying to figure out why. He is 11 years old now though. 

Are you in Arizona? I would pick the kennel that is nearer to where you live, so that you can go see the dogs for yourself.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Well I did say none to my knowledge.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

SilverBuck said:


> Hi, ive tried searching and have found no help, so i just made this thread.
> 
> Now i know some are avid defenders of the gsd breed and argue that the oversized breeding of them is looked down upon.
> Well Ive already made up my mind on either going to royalair or gentlegiants of arizona.
> ...


Do you mean "oversized BREEDERS?"? (that could be considered kind of rude!) 


If you have already made up your mind to get a GSD so purposedly not bred to the standard - good luck to you!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> Actually many of us have large dogs intentionally we just keep our mouths shut because *we don't want to be jumped on. *
> 
> My boy is from Arizona but not from Gentle Giants. When he was younger he weighed 92#'s. Lately that has dropped and we are trying to figure out why. He is 11 years old now though.
> 
> Are you in Arizona? I would pick the kennel that is nearer to where you live, so that you can go see the dogs for yourself.


*At least you realize that is is wrong to do something so against the GSD standard!*


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## V_Tess (Dec 30, 2012)

My puppy is from German Shepherd Puppys Arizona. Their website is www.germanshepherdpuppiesarizona.com. I was really happy working with JD.


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## V_Tess (Dec 30, 2012)

Forgot to say they aren't oversized though.


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

I wouldn't necessarily have an issue getting an oversized GSD from a shelter or rescue but I would never purposely seek out a breeder who breeds larger dogs on purpose. No ones mentioned the effects this has on their health, it causes extra stress to their joints and I'm sure their organs and it also hinders their working ability and they are after all a working breed. No one can stop you if that's what your mind is set on just putting it out there for the reasons why people are against it.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

I have a royalair pup


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

At 8 months he is about 85 lbs prob 27" at the shoulder... 


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

codmaster said:


> *At least you realize that is is wrong to do something so against the GSD standard!*


If we all would go for the breed standard we all would end up with dogs looking like the Westminster GSD that won its breed.
I am glad WD doesn't live up to the breed standard. 

Why is it actually unhealthy for an oversized GSD, while St. Bernards are oversized as well but yet approved by the breed standard.


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

wolfy dog said:


> If we all would go for the breed standard we all would end up with dogs looking like the Westminster GSD that won its breed.
> I am glad WD doesn't live up to the breed standard.
> 
> Why is it actually unhealthy for an oversized GSD, while St. Bernards are oversized as well but yet approved by the breed standard.


Because we are talking about The German Shepherd dog....not a St. Bernard. Why not compare to an Irish Wolfhound too.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

codmaster said:


> *At least you realize that is is wrong to do something so against the GSD standard!*


No I don't think it is wrong. What I think is wrong is the roached back ends of the show dogs (even though I do have one and love her to death) I much prefer the straight backs and the block heads of over-sized dogs. BTW I also love the White German Shepherd Dog and those are against the standard too.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> No ones mentioned the effects this has on their health, it causes extra stress to their joints and I'm sure their organs and it also hinders their working ability and they are after all a working breed. No one can stop you if that's what your mind is set on just putting it out there for the reasons why people are against it.


Actually working lines tend to be on the larger side compared to the show lines. Just sayin....


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## Carriesue (Aug 13, 2012)

shepherdmom said:


> Actually working lines tend to be on the larger side compared to the show lines. Just sayin....


I thought it was the other way around at least when it comes to German showlines, I've never had American lines only because I'm not a big fan of Black and Tan coloring(that's just personal preference nothing against the dogs themselves)... I think it just depends on the lines but most WL's I've seen have been what would be considered small nowadays.


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## SilverBuck (Feb 28, 2013)

Yeah im in Las Vegas, but will drive or ship the pup out to me. 

I was on their puppy list and they recently contacted for some cancelations. But before I wanna make sure that royalair and gentlegiants are the same "type" of dog.


In other words what does one have that the other doesnt?

Royalair advertises their stud and pups to grow to 130lbs +
Gentlegiants advertise 100-110lbs

Is royalair exagerating or are they truly bigger?


., please, no flaming i dont want to know how mutty these dogs are in comparrison to yours or how ashamed you are of their existance.

I understand some of you guys' passion for the breed, but I need help on this specific "subtype" of gsd, please input if you have experience


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

shepherdmom said:


> No I don't think it is wrong. What I think is wrong is the roached back ends of the show dogs (even though I do have one and love her to death) I much prefer *the straight backs and the block heads of over-sized dogs.* BTW I also love the White German Shepherd Dog and those are against the standard too.


 
*Have you read the GSD standard?* - ALL GSD's are supposed to have a LEVEL back!

What show dogs have you seen that have a Roached back? Are you referring to foreign overseas show dogs? Must be, as you would never see a serious conformation GSD with a Roach in the US show ring!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

SilverBuck said:


> Yeah im in Las Vegas, but will drive or ship the pup out to me.
> 
> I was on their puppy list and they recently contacted for some cancelations. But before I wanna make sure that royalair and gentlegiants are the same "type" of dog.
> 
> ...


 
These dogs are NOT a "subtype" of GSD - just dogs that, thru no fault of their own, are just extrmely bad example sof the standard GSD and totally unsuited for the purposes that GSD's were designed and created. Picture a 130 lb GSD trotting all day! How about being the handler in SAR or some such having to carry their dog!

If you want a 130lb dog get a breed who was designed to be that big!


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

shepherdmom said:


> No I don't think it is wrong. What I think is wrong is the roached back ends of the show dogs (even though I do have one and love her to death) I much prefer the straight backs and the block heads of over-sized dogs. BTW I also love the White German Shepherd Dog and those are against the standard too.





shepherdmom said:


> Actually working lines tend to be on the larger side compared to the show lines. Just sayin....



Actually, most show lines do tend to be slightly bigger. Working lines *generally* are slightly lighter. This is in _general_. Depends completely on genetics and what the lines were/are bred for. 

Fwiw Rocket has a very blocky head, does not have a roached back (also backs are "roached", not "back ends") and is WGSL.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

A dog that's taller than the standard but carries a proper weight shouldn't have a higher degree of joint problems just because it's taller than the standard. Check to make sure the breeder you're interested in pays attention to hips/elbows. If they do you'll be able to find OFA results online for their dogs. Naturally pay attention to the overall health of the dogs they've sold previously. 

Have you looked at this breeder? They aren't producing mini horses  but their dogs (some) are on the larger side. They're on your side of the country. No affliation or reference, just another option for you to look at. 
Big, Old Fashioned German Shepherds


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think people can buy what they want and breed what they want. Main things I am opposed to is misinformation often perpetuated by the breeders of oversized dogs, claiming they have what the GSD was "meant" to be. I would say go back and look at pictures of original GSDs and documents and you will see a medium sized, efficiently proportioned working dog made by mixing light fleet herding stock with heavier guarding stock. The breed can swing too far too either extreme. Oversize is one extreme. Malinois type dogs another.

But that said - make an informed choice. Realize they are not within the "standard". Big dogs typically live shorter lives than small dogs - look at longevity and health histories of what you are buying. They are not going to "hurt" the breed as they are not in the same population of dogs being bred as those for work or those for show.

To the comment that if all GSDs were bred to the standard they would look like the Westminster winners......ah......no. There is an SV and an AKC standard. Not really that different. There is a LOT of leeway in both standards. What wins is based on interpretation of the day...


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Nancy, excellent post.

*People, enough!! If you can not answer the OP's question about this breeder than just let it be.* 

OP, there are a few people on the board that like the very large GSD. I see one posted already. Hopefully RubyTuesday (I think that is her name) will chip in too.


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## Franksmom (Oct 13, 2010)

Frank is from Rosehall, but his Father is from Royalair. 
Frank is 29 inches and 86 pounds at 2 years old. (He could easily go higher in weight but I will not let him do that, we do too many jumping activities for him to carry that much weight)
I love him and would go back to Rosehall for another GSD. 
Frank is very much a GSD in personality, and I would not label him a laid back, gentle giant type dog, so if you are wanting that type personality to go with the size. I would make sure whichever oversized breeder you go to, you make sure they understand that is what you are wanting.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

If you are looking for a bigger shepherd like dog, have you considered the King Shepherd: King Shepherd Home page or maybe the Shiloh Shepherd: Shiloh Shepherds Home: Shiloh Shepherd pictures, breed, club, registry info!

Disclaimer: I know nothing about the dogs nor the sites provided. I'm just providing examples for you to consider.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> I thought it was the other way around at least when it comes to German showlines, I've never had American lines only because I'm not a big fan of Black and Tan coloring(that's just personal preference nothing against the dogs themselves)... I think it just depends on the lines but most WL's I've seen have been what would be considered small nowadays.


My boys Shadow and Buddy were from Czech working lines and they are on the big side.. All of the working lines I've seen actually working in SAR were on the big side. Tasha is WGSL and she is decent sized but not over-sized.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

codmaster said:


> *Have you read the GSD standard?* - ALL GSD's are supposed to have a LEVEL back!
> 
> What show dogs have you seen that have a Roached back? Are you referring to foreign overseas show dogs? Must be, as you would never see a serious conformation GSD with a Roach in the US show ring!


I don't watch the shows I think they are horrible. As for what show dogs I've seen. Mine. Tasha is WGSL and has the roached back. 

OP There are some nice Czech dogs in Arizona. If they are big enough for you.
Czech German Shepherd Dogs from Alpine K9

Here are also some large Whites in Arizona. TERROR'S WHITE SHADOW SHEPHERDS - AKC/UKC WHITE GERMAN SHEPHERDS


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> My boys Shadow and Buddy were from Czech working lines and they are on the big side.. All of the working lines I've seen actually working in SAR were on the big side. Tasha is WGSL and she is decent sized but not over-sized.


Really? That has not been my experience.....with SAR dogs.....not at all. A lot of females in the 50-60lb range, males in the 70-80lbs.


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

SilverBuck said:


> Yeah im in Las Vegas, but will drive or ship the pup out to me.
> 
> I was on their puppy list and they recently contacted for some cancelations. But before I wanna make sure that royalair and gentlegiants are the same "type" of dog.
> 
> ...


Royal air GSDs are bigger but not overweight they are lean and healthy. My dogs sire was around 120lbs, his dam was about 100lbs


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## Jd414 (Aug 21, 2012)

Here's pics starting with my pup at 7.5 months, his sire, then dam





















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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> Really? That has not been my experience.....with SAR dogs.....not at all. A lot of females in the 50-60lb range, males in the 70-80lbs.


Maybe its an Arizona or West Coast thing? They tend to breed them big out here? There is a guy the next town over from me who has two of the biggest Shepherds I've ever seen. He raves about the protection place he got them from its in California, but I can't remember the name right now. 

Even go on the rescue sites and look, there are a lot of big shepherds in this neck of the woods.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Silverbuck, I've had 3 Royalair GSD. When I'm ready for a 4th GSD I will look again to Royalair b/c the dogs I got from Robin are all that I wanted. Additionally, I've found Robin to be easy to deal with, pleasant, knowledgeable & always available.

While I prefer over sized GSD I want the GSD intelligence, biddability, athleticism & discerning character. Some of those breeding over sized GSD prefer a softer temperament than I like...What they produce are quite possibly very nice dogs with solid temperaments, but still too uber soft for my own tastes.

Djibouti is my largest. He's a bit over 29" & weighed 92, 93' at 1 yr. He's somewhat heavier now, but probably not much over 100', if that. 

Sam was 27", 92-93' & lived 2+ mos past her 13th birthday. She had health, brains & character as well as longevity.

Phoenix is 28" & ~92 lbs. She's lean, leggy, lively. A bewitching bitch, IMO.

While I do appreciate their size, they are much more than simply big. I'm describing their sizes b/c you'd asked. Robin has had GSD larger than mine, some a good bit larger, but I'm quite pleased with my tribe as it is.

IF you get an oversized GSD don't sweat the size. Too many people wind up packing on excessive pounds to lay claim to the fame of having a 120', 130' or even 140' GSD, which is neither healthy nor attractive. (I've seen GSD that were lean at 120+ or 130+ lbs, but it's unusual even with those breeding over sized GSD.) IF your dog is intended to be a lean 90' porking him up to 120+ lbs is a very bad idea that yields a fat dog, not a truly larger dog.

When I last visited Robin, she had a couple of bitches who are barely over the standard that she is thinking of breeding. Lovely bitches, from what I saw. I wasn't really surprised b/c while Robin likes a large GSD, the dogs she produces are much more than just big.

Feel free to pm me.


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## NRML (Feb 16, 2013)

shepherdmom said:


> Maybe its an Arizona or West Coast thing? They tend to breed them big out here? There is a guy the next town over from me who has two of the biggest Shepherds I've ever seen. He raves about the protection place he got them from its in California, but I can't remember the name right now.
> 
> Even go on the rescue sites and look, there are a lot of big shepherds in this neck of the woods.


I live in Arizona. All of the nice working shepherds I've seen have been were not over 90 pounds (most 60-70). Personally, the really big ones ones I have seen out here were not to my liking (working ability wise). We had one come to my training class with some terrible nerves (although the owner insisted he was an amazing protection dog). As far as average pet shepherds...yes...there are a lot of oversized ones. However, at every working trial I have been at, I have never seen one (that I remember). Not trying to start something but just speaking in my experience.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I second you NRML. I live in Spokane and I travel and have friends all down through Idaho, Utah, Nevada, California, Arizona, Wyoming, Colorado, Oregon.....I see standard GSD's.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*Non-Standard GSD - I'm a fan*



SilverBuck said:


> Hi, ive tried searching and have found no help, so i just made this thread.
> 
> Now i know some are avid defenders of the gsd breed and argue that the oversized breeding of them is looked down upon.
> Well Ive already made up my mind on either going to royalair or gentlegiants of arizona.
> ...


We're new to Shepherds. We've only had three over time our lives (60 years). I'm never going back to another breed as I'm completely taken with them.

Anyway, our first was a breed standard protection dog. Marvelous animal.

Our second was supposed to be a breed standard GSD but turned out to outgrow the standard by a considerable margin. I hear that it's not uncommon for one or two pups in a litter to be larger than the rest and even larger than the parents.

Our second pup, Max, grew to about 110 lbs. I've never seen a more beautiful and agile animal of any species but perhaps a gazelle than Max. Absolutely beauty and grace in motion. And, boy was he ever in motion. 

He' was a sweet boy too but a bit too impulsive. One day he charged the partially open front door as I was chatting with a neighbor (squirrel, or other friendly dog or just the sunshine, we don't know) and got tangled up with the school bus. Thankfully, it was a quick end considering what it could have been.

Our new puppy was deliberately purchased from breeder in Corsicana, TX www.giantgermanshepherds.com (also, www.texasworkingdogs.com). He's 4 months and 10 days and is over 50 lbs. His father was 135 at the time we picked up the pup and is the first dog you'll see on thier site if you visit it. Now, he was a bit overweight. But he was not that much overweight.

My trainer says he's of "Old-World" configuration and that these are the sturdiest of all GSDs and the most calm. I'm not trying to start a fight here. I understand that others also have wonderful animals. But we're just thrilled with how closely our new puppy lives up to those standards.

He's quite literally a tank. Virtually no amount of low to mid-intensity activity tires him (yes, we're careful not to stress his new joints too much). The difference between him and Max in endurance is remarkable at this age.

Personally, we're pretty happy with the giant-GSDs. So, if they strike you fancy do feel free to look into them and perhaps even try one out.

The only criticism I have is that they tend to be a bit more evaluative of their master than our previous GSDs. So, they're a bit harder to train, it seems.

But we've only had Zeus for a couple of months now, and, that may be a premature judgement too.

LF


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

NRML said:


> I live in Arizona. All of the nice working shepherds I've seen have been were not over 90 pounds (most 60-70). Personally, the really big ones ones I have seen out here were not to my liking (working ability wise). We had one come to my training class with some terrible nerves (although the owner insisted he was an amazing protection dog). As far as average pet shepherds...yes...there are a lot of oversized ones. However, at every working trial I have been at, I have never seen one (that I remember). Not trying to start something but just speaking in my experience.


I'm not trying to start something either. Just saying I lived in Arizona for over 25 years. Had many shepherds friends in both SAR and obedience and never once saw a 60# or smaller Shepherd working. Of course they were not protection shepherds I really don't know anything about those. My boy's sire was a decorated search and cadaver dog. He was 90-100#'s as were all of his offspring of whom many also became fabulous SAR dogs.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

As I said, I don't have an issue with someone wanting big dogs. 

I did look at the Texas breeders site though and was not pleased with the young age he is breeding some of his dogs (Sam was born in 2011 yet sired a litter in 2012 ), the condition of his dogs (overweight for their frame), and the lack of OFA hip/elbow scoring (even went to OFFA to look for it on the older dogs as the younger dogs being bred are too young to even get an OFA score). The other red flag is two of the three planned breedings in 2013 are with females born in 2012.

I am not sure about the "old world" configuration. The old black and white photos on the breeders page show old world dogs - pretty moderate in size. But I am glad you are happy and have nothing against your dog or even a big dog. Just pointing out some red flags that bother me and I think are not "slamming" just stating facts.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

I thought SAR dogs needed to be moderate in size because handlers may have to help dogs move over/through rubble, etc. and they need to fit into some relatively small spaces and be easy to transport? 
Sheilah


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## MiraC (Dec 7, 2012)

I can't beleive that Texas Working Dogs would put a picture up of coyotes strung on fences! *******!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

MiraC said:


> I can't beleive that Texas Working Dogs would put a picture up of coyotes strung on fences! ********!*
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


 
Would this be considered evidence of bias of some type? 

What exactly were you referring to - not a person with sunburn, was it?


Or maybe you just thought that the coyotes should have been just layed out on the ground?


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## MiraC (Dec 7, 2012)

I don't think displaying a dead animal is appropriate,a coyote is after all a wild dog his life has been taken that is enough.But to each his own we were all descended from barbarians. I suppose.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

The concern isn't necessarily that you're going against set conformation standard and therefor the "show" snobs will look down on you. The real concern is health and temperament - both related to size and other. 

When people intentionally breed dogs out of standard, it is usually implied that they are NOT using well bred stock. Yes, they could of gotten very well bred dogs, done all health testing etc, and slowly over time bred bigger pups to bigger pups. But in that aspect alone you're breeding dogs mainly for size, NOT health or temperament.

Or you get the people, and this is the case the MAJORITY of the time, that simply buy huge dogs and breed them to produce huge dogs. Who cares how well bred or healthy the lines are. Who cares about incidence of hip dysplasia. Who cares if the dogs throw aggressive or fearful, skittish pups. They're BIG. Hard to find too many tested, proven, well bred 120lb german shepherds. 

Not a rant to the OP (although I would like to HOPE in a perfect world at least some thought and consideration is put into the breeding practices), just more an explanation in general WHY some of us in the breed "look down" on these producers of over-sized dogs. It's not just because they "don't look how they're suppose to". 

OP has made up their mind and I wish them look and hope they get a happy, healthy family member


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> I thought SAR dogs needed to be moderate in size because handlers may have to help dogs move over/through rubble, etc. and they need to fit into some relatively small spaces and be easy to transport?
> Sheilah


Depends on where you are. The SAR team I knew did mostly desert search and rescue down southern Arizona. They had issues with Illegals and drug runners so bigger scary looking dogs were better. That is not to say they were all big and scary there was a cute little border collie on the team as well.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

MiraC said:


> I don't think displaying a dead animal is appropriate,a coyote is after all a wild dog his life has been taken that is enough.But to each his own we were all descended from barbarians. I suppose.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


 
And meat eaters as well! 

BTW- I thought we were all desecended from Eden - you mean that those folks were Barbarians!!!!!!!!!


BTW2 - technically, I don't think that a coyote is considered a "wild dog"!


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

shepherdmom said:


> Depends on where you are. The SAR team I knew did mostly desert search and rescue down southern Arizona. They had issues with Illegals and drug runners so bigger scary looking dogs were better. That is not to say they were all big and scary there was a cute little border collie on the team as well.


I thought the dogs that were used to track people were called "man trailing" dogs and not SAR? The only time I have ever heard the term SAR is when it is associated with dogs that are used in natural disasters such as earthquakes and man-made disasters such as 9/11.
Sheilah


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

sit said:


> I thought the dogs that were used to track people were called "man trailing" dogs and not SAR? The only time I have ever heard the term SAR is when it is associated with dogs that are used in natural disasters such as earthquakes and man-made disasters such as 9/11.
> Sheilah


I believe, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, that they are also used to help locate missing persons or children, such as hikers, people that are lost in the woods, canyons, etc. I do know they also use bloodhounds for this. I have a friend who participates with hers. In Western Washington there are lots of GSD's used to help locate missing persons in the Cascades and such.


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

sit said:


> I thought the dogs that were used to track people were called "man trailing" dogs and not SAR? The only time I have ever heard the term SAR is when it is associated with dogs that are used in natural disasters such as earthquakes and man-made disasters such as 9/11.
> Sheilah


IDK about other places but in Arizona, SAR is Search and Rescue... the team in Arizona did a lot of tracking of lost Alzheimer patients as well as lost hikers and such. They would also get called out by the police to look for bodies in the desert and things like that. This team didn't go into buildings it was all outside tracking.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

sit said:


> I thought the dogs that were used to track people were called "man trailing" dogs and not SAR? The only time I have ever heard the term SAR is when it is associated with dogs that are used in natural disasters such as earthquakes and man-made disasters such as 9/11.
> Sheilah


Yes SAR is search and rescue and encompasses ALL of SAR (not just the dog teams)

K9 SAR is either Wilderness SAR using trailing and air scent dogs, typically looking for an individual or a small group of people - either scent discriminatory (using a scent article - trailing dogs, sometimes discriminitory air scent dogs, sometimes general air scent dogs)....

and then Disaster SAR which can encompass a broad range targeted at disaster operations where there may be many victims in a casualty...using non scent discriminatory air scent dogs.

and of course cadaver dogs - 

I have heard the term "man tracking" referring to people with a specialized skill set (and they can be phenomenal but slow) and "trailing" referring to work with a dog.

As to the size of the dogs, IDK.....I have not been in Arizona.....Most of the wilderness and disaster dogs I have seen come from the workinglines (some show but not as many) and are average size for a working line or a police dog. A lot of folks do prefer smaller females. Beau is only 24 inches at the shoulder and about 75lbs right now and everyone comments on how "big" he is.

If you have had to shove 5 people and 2 dogs into an SUV with the dogs on your laps or ride 2 dogs on a gator with several folks...you appreciate the size. I did ask someone else to transport my dog one day when they wanted him to sit on my lap on an ATV (there were 3 adult humans on the ATV and we were going to ride several miles that way!)


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

MiraC said:


> I can't beleive that Texas Working Dogs would put a picture up of coyotes strung on fences! *******!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Hmmmm.....I don't think I've ever strung coyotes up on fences.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Lilie said:


> Hmmmm.....I don't think I've ever strung coyotes up on fences.


Personally if I ever strung up coyotes, I would use little loops of rope or maybe some large hooks!


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## shepherdmom (Dec 24, 2011)

jocoyn said:


> As to the size of the dogs, IDK.....I have not been in Arizona.....Most of the wilderness and disaster dogs I have seen come from the workinglines (some show but not as many) and are average size for a working line or a police dog. A lot of folks do prefer smaller females. Beau is only 24 inches at the shoulder and about 75lbs right now and everyone comments on how "big" he is.


This was my dogs sire... 
John Henry SAR K-9 #2103 
March 4, 1994 - May 7, 2004










Look at the size of him and the other GSD's on the Memorial page. 
memorial2001

edited: Actually don't go look for a while. I just remembered you lost Grim on Saturday. I'm so sorry!!!


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Anubis_Star said:


> The concern isn't necessarily that you're going against set conformation standard and therefor the "show" snobs will look down on you. The real concern is health and temperament - both related to size and other.
> 
> When people intentionally breed dogs out of standard, it is usually implied that they are NOT using well bred stock. Yes, they could of gotten very well bred dogs, done all health testing etc, and slowly over time bred bigger pups to bigger pups. But in that aspect alone you're breeding dogs mainly for size, NOT health or temperament.
> 
> ...


There are good, bad & indifferent breeders among any of the 'types' of GSD, whether WL, ASL, GSL or companion lines. Good, conscientious breeders will rigorously select for health, temperament, character & longevity regardless of which type their involved with.

The inferences that breeders of over sized GSDs ignore health, temperament & structural soundness are biased, inaccurate & just plain WRONG. Who cares how well bred they are??? Those buyers that return for their 2nd, 3rd & 4th GSD certainly do.

I don't give a ratz patoot about anyone looking down on me, my dogs or their breeder but I do heartily resent people resorting to inaccurate & inflammatory generalizations to do so.

It behooves anyone selecting a dog, particularly a breed as troubled as the GSD, to research it thoroughly and make an informed, knowledgeable decision. The egregious misinformation about health, hips & temperament which is routinely tossed out whenever anyone asks about particular breeders of GSD does not serve the purpose of helping people to make an informed & knowledgeable decision.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> There are good, bad & indifferent breeders among any of the 'types' of GSD, whether WL, ASL, GSL or companion lines. Good, conscientious breeders will rigorously select for health, temperament, character & longevity regardless of which type their involved with.
> 
> The inferences that breeders of over sized GSDs ignore health, temperament & structural soundness are biased, inaccurate & just plain WRONG. Who cares how well bred they are??? Those buyers that return for their 2nd, 3rd & 4th GSD certainly do.
> 
> ...


 
Have you ever studied anything about genetics and selection of breeding individuals? (doesn't sound like it). If breeding individuals are selected for ANY one characteristic (I.E. size way over the standard or maybe in some cases a very "GENTLE" temperament (also way out of line compared to the GSD standard, by the way), then it is highly probable that other characteristics will suffer.

Just a random thought.

BTW, we can also fault some show breeders for concentrating too much on a beautiful side gait!

Same concept.


And a question for these GIANT GSD breeders and/or advocates - do many (any?) of them do ANY titling/working/training in any of the performance sports - ScH, S&R, Herding, Seeing Eye, K9, even Rally or AKC Obedience, etc.?

I am not knowledgable about these breeders and am not aware of this aspect of these dogs; so would welcome an update from someone who knows about these dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

This link is showline only(because the working lines haven't changed that much structurally) and shows the changes in conformation. I don't think any of the dogs shown were over 90#
I don't understand this 'old fashioned' buzzword that oversize breeders use.....the site I linked does exactly this!
past to present


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

Carriesue said:


> I wouldn't necessarily have an issue getting an oversized GSD from a shelter or rescue but I would never purposely seek out a breeder who breeds larger dogs on purpose. No ones mentioned the effects this has on their health, it causes extra stress to their joints and I'm sure their organs and it also hinders their working ability and they are after all a working breed. No one can stop you if that's what your mind is set on just putting it out there for the reasons why people are against it.


Ditto. I had a 127-lb solid black male rescue once who was the love of my life. Not sure how tall, but he had 2-3 inches on my current boy, easily.

I'll grant you, he was impressive to most people. "Scary" and all that rubbish. So, I can see why people desire the oversized...but I just can't get behind breeding for it.

Haha... I'm remembering... As "scary" as he looked, he couldn't have protected me from hardly a thing, though, since (a) he wasn't trained to, (b) he was super chill, and didn't even bark an alert, and (c) he would rather lick someone to death than see them go out any other way. 

He made it to 14 1/2, but that frame was just too large. I wouldn't do it to a dog intentionally. I feel it's irresponsible. Not meaning to offend...

You can find these guys, pb, in rescue, though. And they are most in need as I've heard that they are most likely to end up in a kill shelter...especially the darker coats.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

codmaster said:


> Personally if I ever strung up coyotes, I would use little loops of rope or maybe some large hooks!


I'd just use my mad training skills and teach them to knock on the door if they want to come over and visit. Then we'd just sit on the porch with adult beverages and maybe howl at the moon for a while.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

RubyTuesday said:


> The inferences that breeders of over sized GSDs ignore health, temperament & structural soundness are biased, inaccurate & just plain WRONG. Who cares how well bred they are??? Those buyers that return for their 2nd, 3rd & 4th GSD certainly do.
> 
> It behooves anyone selecting a dog, particularly a breed as troubled as the GSD, to research it thoroughly and make an informed, knowledgeable decision. The egregious misinformation about health, hips & temperament which is routinely tossed out whenever anyone asks about particular breeders of GSD does not serve the purpose of helping people to make an informed & knowledgeable decision.


:thumbup:It's like spitting in the wind RT, but nice try.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I think if people are going back for a second, third, and fourth dog, they must be doing something right. Breeding for side gate, breeding for size, breeding for color, breeding for health, breeding for drives, breeding for working ability, breeding for intelligence, breeding for structure -- I guess everyone is actually focusing on specific areas. They are not necessarily ignoring all else, but they are, everyone is, breeding for specific traits, in whatever lines they have. A dog with excellent structure, that can be titled in obedience, and a history of good health may be looked down up by someone who is breeding for working ability, health, high drives and trainability. 

A breeder of show dogs told me that over-sized is not a problem as long as the dog is balanced. It is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Or dumping every dog from your program that has an ancestor or relative with HD. You really have to look at the whole dog. Size is just a piece of the pie. It is like washed out color, or lack of angulation, or balanced fore and aft, or long coat, or having improper dentition, or faulty ears. In one area the dog lacks. It is over sized. LOTS of people want larger dogs. 

I guess while I would not specifically breed for over-sized dog, if an over-sized dog was clearly better in some of the those things I was looking to improve, I would not cross him out solely because he was larger than the standard. I would want to ensure that I was not introducing other problems at the same time. 

We want to look at the whole dog. Size is just a part of the conformation.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> There are good, bad & indifferent breeders among any of the 'types' of GSD, whether WL, ASL, GSL or companion lines. Good, conscientious breeders will rigorously select for health, temperament, character & longevity regardless of which type their involved with.
> 
> The inferences that breeders of over sized GSDs ignore health, temperament & structural soundness are biased, inaccurate & just plain WRONG. Who cares how well bred they are??? Those buyers that return for their 2nd, 3rd & 4th GSD certainly do.
> 
> ...


I'm staying out of this one. . But I agree that there is more misinformation thrown around on this forum than facts when the subject of oversized German shepherds is bought up.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

I have no problem with people wanting an oversized GSD, everybody their own. What does bother me is the way these breeders misrepresent the breed - unfortunately very successfully. They essentially deceive buyers with the claims that these are the old-fashioned, original GSDs, and they are supposed to be better than those lines that meet the breed standard. Very clever marketing.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

clever to those that are gullible. If you know better, you do better.


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

onyx'girl said:


> clever to those that are gullible. If you know better, you do better.


Unfortunately they seem to be very successful with the "old fashioned and better" propaganda. It seems everybody, the public, knows of these "giant" and "old fashioned" GSDs. Most of the public does not know of the sable and working line and they think the sable is a wolf hybrid. The "big, old-fashioned, better" sales pitch seems to work.


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## Longfisher (Feb 28, 2013)

*I guess it's what you're used to - strung up Coyotes*



MiraC said:


> I can't beleive that Texas Working Dogs would put a picture up of coyotes strung on fences! *******!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com App


Growing up in central Texas, I saw that quite a bit. Indeed, there was a highway intersection which was renamed from Three Corners to Coyote **** in a small town out of Buffalo, TX for all the coyotes which were hung out there by ranchers.

I heard a rumor that hanging the dead ones also tended to ward off others. But that sounds a bit far-fetched to me. 

Probably they just hang them up as trophies. There's a lot of that sort of thinking in Texas.

LF


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

We're in south Texas, and there's a ragged old coyote that has been seen walking through our neighborhood several times. I hope someone shoots him soon. Do not need to be out at dusk with my dogs and have an encounter.

I don't think we'd hang him up, though. Gross.

But yes, that is the theory, wards off the others.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> I have no problem with people wanting an oversized GSD, everybody their own. What does bother me is the way these breeders misrepresent the breed - unfortunately very successfully. They essentially deceive buyers with the claims that these are the old-fashioned, original GSDs, and they are supposed to be better than those lines that meet the breed standard. Very clever marketing.


The proof is in the fact that people buy these "old fashion" dogs and like everything about them. Some of the old fashion breeders have been able to keep the strong, healthy bloodlines from the champion dogs of the 50s and 60s in their breeding program and do not worry about being accepted by the show judges or Schtuzhund groups. And no, you don't see many old fashion dogs that are titled or sport champions because they wouldn't be accepted in those venues which are not, IMO, a true representation of a balanced German shepherd. 
There are a lot of people today who had or lived with German shepherds 30 years ago. It is from these dogs that many old fashion breeders have built their breeding program around.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*The discussion about coyotes in this thread will end NOW. It has no bearing on the topic. *

*Thank you,*

*ADMIN Lisa*


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## RebelGSD (Mar 20, 2008)

Doc said:


> The proof is in the fact that people buy these "old fashion" dogs and like everything about them. Some of the old fashion breeders have been able to keep the strong, healthy bloodlines from the champion dogs of the 50s and 60s in their breeding program and do not worry about being accepted by the show judges or Schtuzhund groups. And no, you don't see many old fashion dogs that are titled or sport champions because they wouldn't be accepted in those venues which are not, IMO, a true representation of a balanced German shepherd.
> There are a lot of people today who had or lived with German shepherds 30 years ago. It is from these dogs that many old fashion breeders have built their breeding program around.


What lines are those? Can you recommend some of the breeders that maintain those lines? I have to admit that several of the "old-fashioned" websites I looked at did not come across as knowledgable or even competent. To me it came across as a lot of show and empty hand waving targeting first-time buyers with no experience with the breed. I could be wrong though and i am open to learning. I would like to get to know serious breeding programs of this type.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RebelGSD said:


> What lines are those? Can you recommend some of the breeders that maintain those lines? I have to admit that several of the "old-fashioned" websites I looked at did not come across as knowledgable or even competent. To me it came across as a lot of show and empty hand waving targeting first-time buyers with no experience with the breed. I could be wrong though and i am open to learning. I would like to get to know serious breeding programs of this type.


Good questions!


One question (definition?) that I have from this discussion is a simple one -- 

*What is the definition of an "OLD FASHIONED" GSD?*

I see some things that suggest that this is a GSD with no rear angulation, or maybe a BIG over the standard GSD, or sometimes I see a reference to a "mellow", very even tempered, not protective GSD?

Are these things part of the definition of an "old fashioned" GSD?

All of them?, some of them?, other things?


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> Have you ever studied anything about genetics and selection of breeding individuals? (doesn't sound like it). If breeding individuals are selected for ANY one characteristic (I.E. size way over the standard or maybe in some cases a very "GENTLE" temperament (also way out of line compared to the GSD standard, by the way), then it is highly probable that other characteristics will suffer.


What did I post that made you assume I know nothing about breeding or selection of desired traits? Where have I posted that any decent breeder selects for a single quality? Why do you assume that breeders of over sized GSD are breeding for this single characteristic? You are either mistaken in your assumptions or deliberately misleading.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> What did I post that made you assume I know nothing about breeding or selection of desired traits? Where have I posted that any decent breeder selects for a single quality? Why do you assume that breeders of over sized GSD are breeding for this single characteristic? You are either mistaken in your assumptions or deliberately misleading.


 
So, *are* you aware of the involved genetics and breeder selection criteria and consequent impacts of breeding for a specific trait (in this case OVERSIZE and out of standard)?

I am sorry, I didn't quite understand your reply to my admitted assumptions that I did assume based on your earlier posts. 

Perhaps you could point me to a breeder or two of these Giant GSD's who do actually breed to the rest of the standard (except for their obvious disregard for the standard regarding GSD size) and also do the normal health checks and training/titleing (of any type)?

That would really be great if you think it is possibe to point out some of these breeders.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

codmaster said:


> Good questions!
> 
> 
> One question (definition?) that I have from this discussion is a simple one --
> ...


The term old fashion has been around for generations. German shepherds that were before Klodo von Boxberg have been labled "old fashion". It is true that far bad there was a wide range of heights and weights in the German shepherds gene pool. Klodo was given the championship by Stephanitz as a way to control height. He also would not register any stud dog over 26 inches in the official registry. Those actions were an attempt to control the height from reaching taller than 30 inches. Klodo was probably a blue dog, had one yellow eye among other questionable qualities. But he was loaded with Max's chosen dogs. He beat out a wonderful dog from the Blasienberg Kennels that was an extremely champion worthy animal albeit larger than Klodo.
Soon after, the dogs pre Klodo became known as old fashion dogs.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Oh codmaster, you are requested on another thread! http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-litter-jinopo-art-ze-sumavske-doling-x.html
"old fashioned" means as much as Amish=home goodness to me....0


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Codmaster, please let me know exactly what statement(s) I made in earlier posts that caused you to make those assumptions. 



> So, *are* you aware of the involved genetics and breeder selection criteria and consequent impacts of breeding for a specific trait (in this case OVERSIZE and out of standard)?


Yes, absolutely. I have never advocated breeding for any single trait, regardless of how desirable it is. I can't believe anyone could read what I've posted in this thread or others & believe differently.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

codmaster said:


> These dogs are NOT a "subtype" of GSD - just dogs that, thru no fault of their own, are just extrmely bad example sof the standard GSD and totally unsuited for the purposes that GSD's were designed and created. *Picture a 130 lb GSD trotting all day*! How about being the handler in SAR or some such having to carry their dog!
> 
> If you want a 130lb dog get a breed who was designed to be that big!


I can picture the face of a would be burglar after attempting to break into a home with a 130 lb GSD.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Nigel said:


> I can picture the face of a would be burglar after attempting to break into a home with a 130 lb GSD.


toss him a steak or a piece of bread? sorry but bigger isn't better when it comes to a medium sized breed. Most larger structured GSD's are low drive and not very athletic. If I'm wrong, please correct me with video's showing their agility abilities/working/jumping/endurance.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

onyx'girl said:


> toss him a steak or a piece of bread? sorry but bigger isn't better when it comes to a medium sized breed. Most larger structured GSD's are low drive and not very athletic. If I'm wrong, please correct me with video's showing their agility abilities/working/jumping/endurance.


Smaller gsds dont eat steak? Your welcome to try and feed mine without me being there, They won't take it. Never did I say anything about agility and I dont disagree there. My females are both over breed standard, our male is yet to be determined.


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

I just have to inject an interesting phenomenon I've experienced twice this week: Rocket has been to the Cabela's near me twice--last Saturday and then again today. Both times people have said "Wow! What's he weigh--120? 130?" LOL I say, "Oh, I think about "79-80lbs" ( I haven't weighed him recently but that's what he weighed in Nov and he's not significantly different). I also heard a lot of "I had/have one--120lbs!" 

Sometimes I wonder if people really weigh their dogs. I'm guessing not. I did own a 120lb dog years ago and he was way bigger than Rocket. Several inches taller for one, and just, much, much bigger. 

Everyone seems to think that GSD's should be 120lbs for some reason. 

Hey...I wonder how much they think _*I*_ weigh (which _is_ 120) if they think Rocket weighs that and he's only 80....


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

codmaster said:


> Picture a 130 lb GSD trotting all day! How about being the handler in SAR or some such having to carry their dog!
> 
> If you want a 130lb dog get a breed who was designed to be that big!


130lb is VERY oversized. I don't think there would be that many out there that big.
If a dog of say 100-110lb (which is still classed as oversized) was fit, balanced and had no underlying problems then i see no reason why it wouldn't be able to trot all day. There would be many "smaller" GSD who couldn't .....could your dog trot ALL day??
Most GSD don't need to trot all day. For the record my GSD is 100lbs and can trot ALL day.
There is more than just size that effects a dogs ability to trot all day.....fitness being one.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Carriesue said:


> . No ones mentioned the effects this has on their health, it causes extra stress to their joints and I'm sure their organs and it also hinders their working ability and they are after all a working breed.


While I agree that if the dog had an underlying problem like mild HD that extra size would not be ideal I don't quite understand why it would be such a big problem if the dog was sound....and the whole concept that it would cause extra stress on organs baffles me....sure if the dog was fat.....but if the dog is fit and healthy.....I just think that sounds a bit far fetched.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

RocketDog said:


> Sometimes I wonder if people really weigh their dogs. I'm guessing not. I did own a 120lb dog years ago and he was way bigger than Rocket. Several inches taller for one, and just, much, much bigger.


Yes.....I think people tend to OVERSTATE their dogs weight quite a bit.

How do you do multiple quotes.....


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## RocketDog (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, that's what I was getting at. I bet (obviously not from people like RubyTuesday or Doc, who actually pay attention and know what they're talking about but the average Joe-on-the-street) people do a lot of 'arm-chair quarterbacking' when it comes to their dogs' weight.


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## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

sparra said:


> Yes.....I think people tend to OVERSTATE their dogs weight quite a bit.
> 
> How do you do multiple quotes.....


 click the - button next to the quote button on the first and then just hit quote on the next.

I use to be one to over estimate weight. I could have sworn my malamute mix was 130ish, his actual turned out to be 115.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Oh codmaster, you are requested on another thread! http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...s-litter-jinopo-art-ze-sumavske-doling-x.html
> "old fashioned" means as much as Amish=home goodness to me....0


 
thank you but i really don't have time to look at your web site - how about a quick summary of what you found and what you believe from looking at that site?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

sparra said:


> While I agree that if the dog had an underlying problem like mild HD that extra size would not be ideal I don't quite understand why it would be such a big problem if the dog was sound....and the whole concept that it would cause extra stress on organs baffles me....sure if the dog was fat.....but if the dog is fit and healthy.....I just think that sounds a bit far fetched.


In a bit of an exageration - think of a St Bern. doing ScH. Or maybe a Great Dane doing herding.

Too big for those kinds of jobs. Maybe a Newfie doing Agility?


A GSD is supposed to be (designed and bred) an all around medium sized versatile dog breed, not a Giant breed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

codmaster said:


> thank you but i really don't have time to look at your web site - how about a quick summary of what you found and what you believe from looking at that site?


??? I don't have a website. Clik the link so you can see what I was referring to.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> In a bit of an exageration - think of a St Bern. doing ScH. Or maybe a Great Dane doing herding.
> 
> Too big for those kinds of jobs. Maybe a Newfie doing Agility?
> 
> ...


Wow, I saw a Great Dane doing herding once. He was a puppy and was doing quite well too.

And I have seen Leonbergers doing agility, and I think they are bigger than Newfies.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Wow, I saw a Great Dane doing herding once. He was a puppy and was doing quite well too.
> 
> And I have seen Leonbergers doing agility, and I think they are bigger than Newfies.


 
That would be very cool to see a GD doing that.

Was it working herding or herding trials (i.e. AKC)?

It would be really something to see a Leon doing the weave poles!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Ask and you shall receive. The second one is the Great Dane herding a horse and a pony, not cattle.


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

codmaster said:


> In a bit of an exageration - think of a St Bern. doing ScH. Or maybe a Great Dane doing herding.
> 
> Too big for those kinds of jobs. Maybe a Newfie doing Agility?
> 
> ...


Like I said 130lbs is on the VERY big side......I did specify 100-110lbs which, from what I am gathering, is closer to the size of the dogs discussed here.....as in owned by some of the posters who have gone to these breeders......I don't think anyone posting on this thread has, nor wants, a dog the size of a Great Dane, St Bernard or Newfie


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## sparra (Jun 27, 2011)

Nigel said:


> click the - button next to the quote button on the first and then just hit quote on the next.


Thanks for that...very obvious :blush:
I will try that next time.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

RubyTuesday said:


> There are good, bad & indifferent breeders among any of the 'types' of GSD, whether WL, ASL, GSL or companion lines. Good, conscientious breeders will rigorously select for health, temperament, character & longevity regardless of which type their involved with.
> 
> The inferences that breeders of over sized GSDs ignore health, temperament & structural soundness are biased, inaccurate & just plain WRONG. Who cares how well bred they are??? Those buyers that return for their 2nd, 3rd & 4th GSD certainly do.
> 
> ...



To turn a 60-85lb breed into a 100-140lb breed means you are breeding for SIZE. Largest pups to largest pups to produce largest pups. Therefor health and temperament can NOT be your top priority. It is simply genetics. Not only that, but most of these breeders blatantly LIE and state that they are breeding "old fashioned" german shepherds when they are obviously not. Look at every sieger Max Vom Stephanitz himself ever hand selected. 

These breeders are going against the very wishes and will of a man I greatly respect, Max Von Stephanitz. They are neither breeds I admire nor honor, but outside of that they are not breeding practices I respect. I got lucky with my BYB newspaper boy. Still doesn't mean the people who bred his litter were in the right.


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## Anubis_Star (Jul 25, 2012)

I however did not state that before. I was trying to remain neutral and simply give a response defending the more reasonable defense against most breeders of oversized dogs. Keep in mind I also never ONCE classified "EVERY SINGLE BREEDER". Someone else has asked NUMEROUS times for websites to be posted of people who breed for size, that also title their dogs in other sport? Has any website been given? Why don't you also throw out a couple of these 130lb stud dogs with OFA hips and elbows while you're at it?

Max Von Stephanitz also stated one time that form should follow function. Breeding for working ability alone should theoretically give you a structurally sound animal. Breeding for size not only does not guarantee you a structural soundness, but in NO way guarantees you a sound and driven temperament.

If you want a giant calm dog, I can think of many other breeds that fit that standard. No reason to change this one. Besides, if you want big and you want calm/gentle, then it's not even a german shepherd you really want! Again, not a statement I chose to make before because, again, I didn't necessarily come on here to "bash" these breeders, just defend some of the reasoning behind not supporting MOST of them.




> *Bred uniquely for their large size*, Gentle Giant German Shepherds are also known for their intelligence and *calm temperament*. Our *Classic* Shepherds are AKC registered beautiful large boned


~Gentle Giants German Shepherds of Arizona.

They use ONE 120lb stud with NO OFA records, because he is BIG. Please explain to me how this breeder doesn't exactly fit the reasons I gave AGAINST these breeders?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Good posts!


Response from any Giant/Old Fashioned (?) GSD breeders/advocates?


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Why should they respond? You have already condemned them to hades. The fact remains, there are genetics in German shepherds that will yield oversized dogs. And what responsible breeder doesn't base their their breeding program on certain traits within the genetics of the dog whether it be head shape, body length, spring of rib, etc. There are many dogs within the Standard - which has been rewritten several times since Stephanitz's original version ( who also altered the his own standard to increase height) - that are horrible examples of what a German shepherd is suppose to be. 
In an upcoming book there is a great deal of information about the foundational dogs that were used to build the German shepherd. It is interesting to note that Max von Stephanitz was not a very successful breeder. He leaned on the old kennels and their breeders to produce the type of dog he was looking for. Many of those dogs were crossed to Horand in hopes of finding the right right balance. Subsequently, many of those dogs were larger, in both height and weight, than what Max wanted but knew they contributed what was needed to create the dog he wanted. During this time a great deal of Swabian and Wurttember bloodlines were introduced int the gene pool - Swabian and Wurttember dogs were larger, more calm, slow to bite, herding dogs.
With this background, there can be little question about the authenticity of where the oversize German shepherd stems from.


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## fuzzybunny (Apr 29, 2011)

Anubis_Star said:


> To turn a 60-85lb breed into a 100-140lb breed means you are breeding for SIZE. Largest pups to largest pups to produce largest pups. Therefor health and temperament can NOT be your top priority.


I don't understand why it has to be one or the other. I think you can breed for size, health, and temperament with all of them being important. I don't think it's fair to say that all breeders of over-size GSDs are breeding for size only at the expense of health and temperament.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Anubis_Star said:


> Someone else has asked NUMEROUS times for websites to be posted of people who breed for size, that also title their dogs in other sport? Has any website been given? Why don't you also throw out a couple of these 130lb stud dogs with OFA hips and elbows while you're at it?


The OP asked about Gentle Giant and Royalair. Royalair OFA's their dogs. GG doesn't mention it on their website but that doesn't mean it isn't being done. Perspective buyers would want to ask about that.

What kind of titles would make you happy? There is no title for exceptional pet or companion. No title for a dog that lies next to their master while he's dying or lays across a bedroom door while a baby sleeps. No titles are given for the thousands of dogs who are obedient, naturally loyal and bring years of happiness to their owners. 
Titles have their place, no doubt about it, but the lack of titles doesn't necessarily mean a dog isn't capable of producing good progeny. 



Anubis_Star said:


> If you want a giant calm dog, I can think of many other breeds that fit that standard. No reason to change this one. Besides, if you want big and you want calm/gentle, then it's not even a german shepherd you really want!


Seeing eye dogs come to mind when you talk about calm and gentle. Are you saying the Fidelco dogs and other GSD's working in that capacity are bad examples of the breed?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Whiteshepherds said:


> The OP asked about Gentle Giant and Royalair. Royalair OFA's their dogs. GG doesn't mention it on their website but that doesn't mean it isn't being done *(or that it is - right?)* . Perspective buyers would want to ask about that.
> 
> What kind of titles would make you happy? There is no title for exceptional pet or companion. No title for a dog that lies next to their master while he's dying or lays across a bedroom door while a baby sleeps. No titles are given for the thousands of dogs who are obedient, naturally loyal and bring years of happiness to their owners.
> 
> ...


*Excellent example: I was not aware of any of these Giant GSD's were working Seeing Eye dogs.*

*So can you list a few (or even just a count) of the many such dogs that you are aware of in your own persoanl experience?*

*A listing of a few such actual dogs would go a LONG way to convince me at any rate that some of the breeders of GIANT GSD's are breeding for more than just size (and maybe a docile temperament).*

*Thanks in advance for such hard concrete evidence!*

*Now for a few more examples of ScH/IPO dogs, K9 working dogs, Herding dogs, even AKC Obedience and Rally dogs, etc.*

*Anybody??????????????????????????????*


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Anubis Star, you are again making a great many assumptions. Certainly breeders of over sized GSD strive for size & substance. Those breeders that prefer a more moderate size are also breeding for size. Any breeder that selects only for size, whether the preferred size is small, medium or large, is a fool. This is true of anyone selecting solely for any one characteristic, including quite beneficial characteristics. Good breeders must be concerned with the total dog, ie physical & mental health, sound structure, longevity, solid nerves, biddability, intelligence, appropriate drives & the necessary control/self discipline.

As with any of the preferred types, many breeders of over sized GSD consistently produce healthy, sound, long lived GSD of exemplary character & temperament. IF they didn't, these beeeders would not have people returning to acquire their 3rd & 4th GSD from 'em.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

RubyTuesday said:


> Anubis Star, you are again making a great many assumptions. Certainly breeders of over sized GSD strive for size & substance. Those breeders that prefer a more moderate size are also breeding for size. Any breeder that selects only for size, whether the preferred size is small, medium or large, is a fool. This is true of anyone selecting solely for any one characteristic, including quite beneficial characteristics. *Good breeders must be concerned* with the total dog, ie physical & mental health, sound structure, longevity, solid nerves, biddability, intelligence, appropriate drives & the necessary control/self discipline.
> 
> *How about the GSD standard?*
> 
> As with any of the preferred types, many breeders of over sized GSD consistently produce healthy, sound, long lived GSD of exemplary character & temperament. IF they didn't, these beeeders would not have people returning to acquire their 3rd & 4th GSD from 'em.


*Many BYB (not to mention pet stores!) sell many many dogs as well!*


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