# Interested in working lines, but not protection work?



## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

In my puppy search I've concluded that I would love to own a working line and feel I can meet their demands, but what is the likelihood a breeder would sell to me if I was in fact not interested in PP/IPO/Shutzhund/French Ring/Mondioring/Etc.? I truthfully am more interested in agility and advanced obedience, while still having a companion that retains protective instincts and will be a derrent. (Young female homosexual living in the homophobic South. It is important to me that my next dog have protective instincts.) I've chosen at this time not to start my next dog in protection-based sport work as it is a very, very, very expensive endeavor, and can be a liability. With this being said, I am interested in protection-based sports, and may choose to start my dog in it later on, but that is only a possibility. 

What are my chances of finding a breeder willing to let their pup go to a home like mine? 

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## pam (Apr 6, 2009)

The math dictates that the majority of working bred puppies will go to active pet homes and the good breeders are more concerned with where their puppies go.....That said, research carefully to be certain you find a breeder who has maintained natural aggression in his/her lines--many dogs bred for sport have little to no natural aggression--their performance in the protection phase of IPO is based mostly/solely on prey drive. That will be worth little for your purposes. I love a balanced dog with natural aggression that is also reasonably social and possesses natural discernment--it makes them safe to take virtually anywhere, yet those protective instincts will surface when a situation warrants. I travel sensibly, but the one I started in SAR, not protection, was with me in broad daylight in a grocery store parking lot when an unstable individual began to harass me--she proved her worth that day and I will be forever grateful. Good luck in your search!


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

The chances are very high. Your worries are a non issue. 

I originally was going to do agility with my boy and had 2nd choice for working quality males. Out of 4 males in that litter, 2 went to IPO homes (mine being one) and 2 went to pet homes.


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## Fodder (Oct 21, 2007)

Very high.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

Well, I can tell you, my "B" litter is currently on the ground. I have eight potential buyers so far for a litter of three puppies. There is a fantastic young family who came out to visit my dogs. I LOVE them! So they are getting one of my males barring anything crazy. My last litter went to all working homes, and that's what I strive for, however once I met this family, I could immediately picture one of my dogs with them everywhere they go. The kids had such a great time with Kimber and Areli, and my dogs adored them. It brought back memories of mine as a child playing with Lady, my childhood GSD. So yes, I'm passing on potential working homes to place one of my puppies in an active family home, because that happens to be a great fit. I love seeing my dogs as members of their current families. So just be open and honest with breeders about your goals and expectations. The rest will fall into place.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just you asking this question is what most breeders would like for their pups. If you need protection for sure, you may consider going into protection so you know that your dog knows what to do if needed and you not having to keep your fingers crossed. A good WL enjoys many activities, as long as he is doing them with you.
I consider Deja one like that and she is just as happy getting the laundry out of the dryer as she is finding a well- hidden (brag, brag) ball.
Enjoy this exciting journey.


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

Thank you so much! I was super concerned about this and this definitely helped ease my fears! 

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Not a problem at all. My working line girl raced in flyball for 5 years, I took nosework classes with her for awhile, we dabbled in dock diving, tried lure sprint racing once, have done tons of hiking, and lots of trips to the park to chase balls and swim. I was very clear about not being interested in Schutzhund when we got her back in 2009. The breeder had described her as being suitable for a working _or_ active pet home, which is exactly what we've provided for her.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

pam said:


> The math dictates that the majority of working bred puppies will go to active pet homes and the good breeders are more concerned with where their puppies go.....*That said, research carefully to be certain you find a breeder who has maintained natural aggression in his/her lines--many dogs bred for sport have little to no natural aggression--their performance in the protection phase of IPO is based mostly/solely on prey drive. That will be worth little for your purposes. * I love a balanced dog with natural aggression that is also reasonably social and possesses natural discernment--it makes them safe to take virtually anywhere, yet those protective instincts will surface when a situation warrants. I travel sensibly, but the one I started in SAR, not protection, was with me in broad daylight in a grocery store parking lot when an unstable individual began to harass me--she proved her worth that day and I will be forever grateful. Good luck in your search!


THIS 100x


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

Actually op not training the type of dog you're after (civil, serious, will bite for real) in some protection based area is a liability. That type of dog needs serious control and you need to have rock solid control over it unless you want the wrong person to get bit.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

thegooseman90 said:


> Actually op not training the type of dog you're after (civil, serious, will bite for real) in some protection based area is a liability. That type of dog needs serious control and you need to have rock solid control over it unless you want the wrong person to get bit.


This is actually a really good point.

You got the sporty WLs you have to train how to bite, and you've got the serious civil ones you've got to train when not to bite. (Broad over generalization here, but you get the drift...)

I think for the OP the trick is going to be finding a really good breeder who will match her with the right dog.


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## thegooseman90 (Feb 24, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> I think for the OP the trick is going to be finding a really good breeder who will match her with the right dog.


 there's more to it than just this, although that's a big part of it. For me this doesn't even come down to lines but rather type. Does she want that serious civil dog? Or does she want a companion that's intimidating? Either dog will need the right balance of drives, nerves, and temperament but the former will need even more training, and if his nerves and temperament aren't right then it could have far worse outcomes than the latter.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

A dog who is capable of working are handful as pups. The dogs with protections instincts training is very important to keep him out of any trouble is just the smart thing to do to keep the dog safe whether he or she needs it or not. A mentor or trainer is needed. A good breeder will match you up with the right pup! There are many working line people on here who can recommend reputable breeders near you. I don?t understand why anyone would find the comment discussed insulting. i would imagine this is the op?s reality and sad that her reality is insulting to some. Nothing was mentioned about race so that can not be compared.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

*I just removed a bunch of posts that went WAY off topic. I am sorry if there was any on topic comments in those posts too, but didn't have time to edit each post. Please, let's discuss the OP's question and not discuss things that have NOTHING to do with GSD and dogs. 

Thank you,

ADMIN*


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

While I've heard of civil drive, I've never entirely understood it. How would a serious civil dog differ than a sporty one - in all ways, not just civility. Is the sporty one inclined to be more energetic, like a malinios? Or do they just fall sport on a protective instinct? Does the civil dog lack discernement?

Educate me, please!

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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

When people say civil, they're generally meaning a dog that bites for real. Because the dogs don't fit exactly into strict descriptions, my advise would be to avoid anyone telling you they're selling you a civil dog. It can be anything from a dog that will can discern legit threats to a dog that lights up at anything that moves. Look for confident, stable, accepting, social, those types of descriptions and then see and meet as many people and dogs as you can to get an idea of how those terms are being applied to the dogs. See how the descriptions fit the dogs, don't try to fit the dogs into the descriptions. Does that make sense?


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

So.. civil is aggressive? 

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Civil in a dog is the exact opposite of what civil in a person would be. Here's an old thread that discusses it: http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/general-information/185534-civil-meaning.html


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Aggression has different pieces. Maybe think of civil as a willingness to do something with some of those pieces. All these things have different levels and degrees in different dogs. You get into nerves, thresholds, it reads a lot different then it shows.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

This:


Robin.Medellin said:


> I truthfully am more interested in agility and advanced obedience, while still having a companion that retains protective instincts and will be a deterrent.





> It is important to me that my next dog have protective instincts.


And this: 



thegooseman90 said:


> Actually op not training the type of dog you're after (*civil, serious, will bite for real*)...


Are not the same thing. Whether or not a dog will _actually_ protect you in a dangerous situation has little to do with perception, and a GSD can look intimidating enough to a person with nefarious intent to act as a deterrent.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

"Civil" means a lot of different things to different people. Sometimes a dog a person calls civil is nervy and lights up on anything he doesn't know. Sometimes, it means a dog who will protect without equipment, is "man focused". It's really more about how the dog behaves in certain scenarios than the catch phrase "civil". I have a malinois helpers call "civil" and that means her bark is all business, and she cares about the man, not the sleeve. That makes the work more stressful for the dog, so she needs a skilled helper. Finding a good helper is critical. 

But remember, prey isn't necessarily a weak drive- a wolf pack taking down a moose is operating in prey drive by definition... so keep that in mind. 

It really comes down to the owner to know their lines, and their dog. Rather than keywords like "civil" dig a little deeper and ask a breeder what that means for their dogs. Then ask for examples, and make sure to meet the dam, and other related dogs. See how the dog acts in public, in places where you will be taking the pup. A dog might act very differently (for better or worse) in the kennel than out.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Here's a couple of good articles:
Schutzhund Village

Schutzhund Village

There may be some disagreement on a few points depending on who you're talking too, but I'd go with this, but still not with the idea of this dog must be this, or that dog must be that. A lot of things aren't any more complicated that what will you like and what can you live with. That's what you'll see with meeting dogs and people.


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

@Cassidy's Mom ; that was a very good read, and definitely cleared up the confusion! 

While a civil dog sounds appealing (Who doesn't love the loyal fido willing to protect his master trope?) I am not sure if that would be the good step up for me from non-working dogs, to my first working dog. They come off to me as easier to "mess up" than a dog that wasn't civil, and as a inexperienced handler in working dogs, "easy to mess up" isn't appealing. Do educate me, though, if I'm wrong. 

I do agree that a German Shepherd (Especially the sable working lines that look part wolf) will be derrent enough, and if anyone is willing to come into my home or challenge me on the streets with one, they're probably coming with weapons that could cause serious harm to my dog and I, as well. 

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Robin.Medellin said:


> I do agree that a German Shepherd (Especially the sable working lines that look part wolf) will be deterrent enough, and if anyone is willing to come into my home or challenge me on the streets with one, they're probably coming with weapons that could cause serious harm to my dog and I, as well.


That has always been my feeling too, and also my experience. This is Halo's flyball face. Are you going to mess with this dog, or her owner? :rofl:


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That has always been my feeling too, and also my experience. This is Halo's flyball face. Are you going to mess with this dog, or her owner? :rofl:


LMBO! I would have never guessed that was a flyball face at all! I love it! 

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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

She's the teensiest bit intense. :wub:


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> That has always been my feeling too, and also my experience. This is Halo's flyball face. Are you going to mess with this dog, or her owner? :rofl:


She's clearly civil though. Look where the reward is. Behind her.


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## snakeybird (Dec 9, 2016)

Hi Robin, I empathize with your questions. And I have asked similar ones. A lot of working line GSD's do activities other than schutzhund/IPO/protection work; it just seems that (at least where I am) the reputable and highly experienced working line GSD breeders participate in shutzhund/IPO/protection competitions in order to title dogs and demonstrate ability and temperament, which IMHO, is a hallmark of responsible breeding. Plus, the schutzhund folks seem to have a lot of fun with their dogs and one another. After all, schutzhund is the original breed test for GSD's in their native country; it's a pity we don't have a similar requirement in the States, from my perspective. A lot of working line GSD's go to homes that do other dog sports (agility, obedience, herding, flyball etc.), plus service work, scent detection, search and rescue, etc. And a lot got to active companion homes. These breeders care a great deal about their dogs, and are going to want to be as sure as possible that the puppy is going to a good home and the owner has interests that are congruent with their evaluation of the dog's abilities. The trick is to find a breeder that really knows their dogs and can place the correct puppy in the correct situation. So yes, you will be able to get a working line GSD as long as you check out as an adopter, so to speak. Good luck!


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## Joys (Nov 6, 2017)

I’m new to this, but for me the thought of a true working dog with an inexperienced handler raises all sorts of red flags. There are lawyers out there just waiting for something to go wrong.

I have enough trouble handling a WGSL. I have noticed when strangers approach me with Zelda, she sort of freezes and glares at them. She doesn’t bark or growl. She just watches. I think she’s too young to actually protect. 
But am I wrong to think most GSDs have protective instincts sort of built-in?


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## snakeybird (Dec 9, 2016)

Joys,

I hear you, however we all have to start somewhere... At one time, all of us who have a working dog got our first working line dog (unless we grew up with them I suppose). I am quite confident reputable working line GSD breeders are going to ask a lot of questions to ensure that puppy placement has a high likely hood of working out. And be there to support adopters.

To me, it sounds like your GSD is being normal; looking out for potential danger to their "herd" is common herding dog behaviour. These guys don't tend to immediately adore strangers (I've met a few who are stranger friendly, but not many).


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## Robin.Medellin (Oct 30, 2016)

Joys said:


> I’m new to this, but for me the thought of a true working dog with an inexperienced handler raises all sorts of red flags. There are lawyers out there just waiting for something to go wrong.
> 
> I have enough trouble handling a WGSL. I have noticed when strangers approach me with Zelda, she sort of freezes and glares at them. She doesn’t bark or growl. She just watches. I think she’s too young to actually protect.
> But am I wrong to think most GSDs have protective instincts sort of built-in?


In argumentation, all handlers start off inexperienced. It is the willingness to learn and take advise from trusted, experience handlers as well self-preparation and education that changes the outcome. An inexperienced handler cut off from others with experience and lack of adequate education is less likely to succeed than one coming with connections and education. 

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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Robin.Medellin said:


> In argumentation, all handlers start off inexperienced. It is the willingness to learn and take advise from trusted, experience handlers as well self-preparation and education that changes the outcome. An inexperienced handler cut off from others with experience and lack of adequate education is less likely to succeed than one coming with connections and education.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk




:thumbup::thumbup:

You will do fine. Go find your puppy.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Joys said:


> I’m new to this, but for me the thought of a true working dog with an inexperienced handler raises all sorts of red flags. There are lawyers out there just waiting for something to go wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’ve never had a working line GSD before. I’ve grown up with GSD mixes, and my partner has always had show lines. My Czech working line girl is a touch crazy, but that’s why four days out of the week we’re attending formal training and every single day of the week we do training at home as well as lots of physical activity. Neither of us in anyway is a liability, and my breeder had no problem placing her with me. 

If you have an officially trained PPD, however, that’s where issues come in. A working line is only as “dangerous” as your average dog given its training and genetics. The difference is the purpose behind the breeding with the two divides... my dog is bred to be a sport dog to do well in IPO. Your show line is bred to do well in the show ring. A show line can do just as much damage as a working line should the occasion arise. 

GSDs are meant to have an appropriate amount of human aggression. But with that aggression must come clear headedness and the ability to distinguish from what is and isn’t a threat. Generally speaking, a puppy of any line does not have the mental maturity to be “protective”. But that doesn’t mean they won’t have a deep bark or appear intimidating once the puppiness wears off, which is what I think OP is hoping for.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I have been training pet dogs ( I know, it is not IPO) for decades and found that the people who had the least experience but were 100% motivated to learn and following up advice, were the most successful in having well behaved and enjoyable dogs. 
Example: a guy who bought two pretty intense Aussie male siblings as pups, while never having even had a dog, let alone trained one. We worked in private trainings for several weeks and it was a success. He soaked up all the information and did his home work. I was impressed, especially him listening and implementing the advice to prevent the sibling syndrome, which worked great as well. He and his dogs were my master piece. I saw them a year ago as older dogs and their owners were still so happy with them and the dogs doing well.
This is to illustrate to the OP, that even though you may not have experience, it's OK to jump in as long as you have good help in finding a good trainer and a breeder who will always back you up. Chose the best pup for you personally with the help of your breeder.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think you would do fine with a working line, of course finding a good breeder who can 'peg' their puppies with your "wants" and "don't wants" is key. I have two right now from wanda brown (kleinenhain) my female is mostly czech and at 9 years old, is not slowing down, not in a 'bad' way..She's healthy as a horse, and you'd never know she was 9. I call her the "bodyguard"..her bark is enough to deter anyone, she settles good, she isn't skitzy or off the wall, she can go anywhere , but she does always know what is going on around her..She isn't a social dog (except at home), she is a 'mind my own business" type, she is a dog I feel very safe with anywhere. My male is her nephew, (father is my female's brother)..He is more east german with a touch of czech, has a good deterring bark, but really is a big moosh The sire (and my females brother),,is almost at his Mach 3 in agility, she has been doing some IPO training with him, he's easy to live with..I will always go to her for a dog, she pegged these dogs as puppies and I got exactly what I wanted..

Good luck in your search, again, finding a breeder that can peg those puppies to what you desire, is key..


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

We can't depend on a dog to distinguish what is and isn't a threat. If even trained human law enforcement, with the capacity to reason and to talk and high intellect, has difficulty with this, how can we expect our dogs to? 

I'll let Will Smith explain threat discernment in this clip:


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

Muskeg said:


> We can't depend on a dog to distinguish what is and isn't a threat. If even trained human law enforcement, with the capacity to reason and to talk and high intellect, has difficulty with this, how can we expect our dogs to?




I would assume though, that if you have a dog who has an appropriate amount of active aggression, should someone approach you in a very aggressive manner (shouting, arms raised, etc) that you could expect that dog to see the behaviour as threatening rather than as an invitation to play? I’m not saying let your dog take the wheel and have them take anyone down who they think might do something wrong. Handler discernment is very important, I agree. But could we not expect that GSDs in particular could likely deter those behaviours through either barking, posturing, etc. when they’ve matured and are confident? Especially if OP were to get a dog from a breeder who works to keep such traits in their lines?

Considering what she is worried about, I would imagine that it isn’t going to be a silent, unexpected attack from someone. Rather, I imagine a very impulsive outburst or confrontation. I think the threats that a dog working in LE deals with rely strongly on their handler for discernment, and I definitely agree that dogs are not always the best judge for a situation or for character. I would just be sad for the breed should someone come yelling at you aggressively, posturing with intent to harm, and your GSD shut down rather than acted with courage. Not that this obviously doesn’t happen, and I know it does.


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## Shepdad (Oct 24, 2017)

Muskeg said:


> We can't depend on a dog to distinguish what is and isn't a threat.


The ideal is a dog that depends on us to distinguish a threat then acts protectively with the appropriate signal. That can be a verbal signal for trained dogs Gib Laut or Packen. However most GSDs that have a good bond with their owner are already reading their owner even before any verbal signal from the owner's nonverbal or even autonomic responses such as stiffening of muscles, the leash tightening, faster breathing, faster or uncertain walking stride, perhaps even body scent; in combination with instinctive or conditioned response of the dog to environmental stimuli such as simply lack of light to strange behavior from other humans. All of these can be fine tuned with training but should exist in some measure. Of course fearful dogs and sharp, reactive ones will have lower thresholds. And responses will differ in the fight or flight spectrum depending on genetics, training, the relationship with the handler, the dog's health and state of mind, and the situation.

Given today's legal environment I would keep a tight hold on the leash and would only release a GSD if my life or the life of others are in clear and imminent danger. I saw two minor petty crimes committed in front of me while I was walking my civil Czech dog but I restrained him because I could not be judge and jury and the legal repercussions for us both would have been terrible if he had bitten the thieves.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> I would assume though, that if you have a dog who has an appropriate amount of active aggression, should someone approach you in a very aggressive manner (shouting, arms raised, etc) that you could expect that dog to see the behaviour as threatening rather than as an invitation to play?


I'm sure there's something similar in Canada, but when they do a temperament test, the final thing is a threatening stranger. The ATT test is the only one I've done, but it considers the reaction by breeds and if there's been any prior protection training. Yes, a German Shepherd with no training is expected to show some level of aggression at the threat and back to calm when its gone.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Joys said:


> I’m new to this, but for me the thought of a true working dog with an inexperienced handler raises all sorts of red flags. There are lawyers out there just waiting for something to go wrong.
> 
> I have enough trouble handling a WGSL. I have noticed when strangers approach me with Zelda, she sort of freezes and glares at them. She doesn’t bark or growl. She just watches. I think she’s too young to actually protect.
> But am I wrong to think most GSDs have protective instincts sort of built-in?


but you are making an opinion based on your experience with a not-sound dog .


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Muskeg said:


> We can't depend on a dog to distinguish what is and isn't a threat. If even trained human law enforcement, with the capacity to reason and to talk and high intellect, has difficulty with this, how can we expect our dogs to?
> 
> I'll let Will Smith explain threat discernment in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3hAVT2sDqQ


yes you can and yes you should .

the dog who is confident and CORRECT temperament will have enough robust nerve to pause and evaluate .
He acts , not reacts.

He reads the B I G picture which includes your input , subtle and unspoken . Complex .
Discernment


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

thank god the dog who has several apprehensions under his belt - hostile resistance -- can and did --- locate a man in distress , mentally disturbed and run-away in the dark of night , during a blizzard, frigid temperatures.

the dog located the man who had been out for some time before anyone realized he was gone - not at all dressed for the weather . 
the dog located --- and the dog did not bite .

did not go in for a take-down -- no routine 

I know the dog from the moment he took his first breath .
I know the dept . They had 4 dogs of mine over the years - the most recent is an "uncle" to Saphire's Gus dog.

they were all related through a mother line .

this judgement is supposed to be part of the breed

you have it by genetics , by not routine training, by wide exposure to life in all of its spectrum of emotions and activity , and by allowing the dog , helping the dog , to mature as he goes from pup , to youth, to adult. 

allow them to make decisions - with consequences - and learn from msitakes.

that is one of my peeves - there are some outstanidng performance flashy obedience dogs - who have been guided along to only do right - never any mistakes .

you learn from your mistakes .


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

> that is one of my peeves - there are some outstanidng performance flashy obedience dogs - who have been guided along to only do right - never any mistakes .


Don't let it bother you too much Carmen. In the real world, they all make some mistakes at every level.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

decision making mistakes -- the taking responsibility mistakes.

and , you have to get them out into the real world , and learning in and from the real world , not from the familiarity of everyone acting a certain way or the environment being a certain way.

how many dogs do well at their club or home-field - and that's it.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

carmspack said:


> decision making mistakes -- the taking responsibility mistakes.
> 
> and , you have to get them out into the real world , and learning in and from the real world , not from the familiarity of everyone acting a certain way or the environment being a certain way.
> 
> how many dogs do well at their club or home-field - and that's it.


Not everyone does everything in some tight little protective mold. Maybe in your area, but nowhere I've ever been.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

The dog who located the missing man and didn't bite- why not? Maybe because the whole picture was very different than an apprehension? No sirens, blaring lights, adrenaline of foot pursuit? The lost man maybe didn't resist or was curled up in a corner and passive- not running or yelling. Or did the dog really reason out, ahhh-- this guy isn't a threat-- and then, how? Training? Genetics? Or maybe the handler was the key piece here, and the dog was trained only to bite on command?

Totally agree discernment is part of the breed- but I stand by that we can't count on a dog, even a trained one with great genetics, to reliably tell a threat from a non threat. I'd guess, and I don't know, but if that same dog who didn't bite the lost man, had been sitting in the patrol car, siren running, lights flashing, people yelling, restrained by harness, and released, and a passive, homeless man was the first target he saw... might have been a different outcome. Maybe not, I don't know the dog. 

Training can certainly be a big part of this, along with genetics. But the handler needs to be in control, and make the decision about sending the dog. Dog's senses are different/better than ours in many areas, but their reasoning ability is not.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

oh yes there was "The dog who located the missing man and didn't bite- why not? Maybe because the whole picture was very different than an apprehension? No sirens, blaring lights, adrenaline of foot pursuit? The lost man maybe didn't resist or was curled up in a corner and passive- not running or yelling'"

situation urgent , life or death for the wandering man .
Several LE vehicles at the ready -- ambulance at the ready . 
Running full throttle to locate -- time is of the essence .
Man wasn't well - he was in a disturbed frame of mind , sky punching , falling down and kicking out like a beetle.
Nonsensical utterances . 

no police dog is trained to only bite on command .

want to see some news clippings , northern Ontario -- prison escape - handler and dog locate escapee who has made it to his rendezvous location , where there are armed friends in the trees , ambush situation .

Handler inronically had a face-shot while active LE with Metro Toronto and so relocated to a quieter area . Well it wasn't .

He was injured , not conscious - dog held off 3 man ambush . This was in the papers and an article in one of the CKC
annual books . He was up for an award for his action - which saved the man's life.

I know this dog also . Very well. and he was related to the other dog though years apart.

A good GSD will be tolerant of children --- right there in the von Stephanitz book 

Ring and Campagne and KNPV where there is more work and inter action between the trialing dog and the public test more of this discernment.

Ring with the guard d objet -- requires the dog to recognize a zone (distance) and to recognize who is minding their business and who has ulterior motives.


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## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I am not going to pretend to be an expert on police K9s because I have no experience in that arena. I do know KNPV line dogs quite well. Love the genetics, love the dogs, great workers, great dogs. They are still dogs. Dogs make mistakes, humans need to be smarter. I know of at least one account locally where a police K9 got the wrong guy. Not too unusual a scenario. It's up to the dog's handler to make the decision to use the dog. I'll leave it at that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Muskeg said:


> We can't depend on a dog to distinguish what is and isn't a threat. If even trained human law enforcement, with the capacity to reason and to talk and high intellect, has difficulty with this, how can we expect our dogs to?
> 
> I'll let Will Smith explain threat discernment in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3hAVT2sDqQ


This is 100% accurate. IME, it is not the loud, noisy or obnoxious that necessarily is the threat, usually just the opposite, one usually doesn't even hear a threat coming. If people can't agree on what is a threat, don't expect a dog to be able to make that determination with accuracy. I have heard of many situations where a dog reacted to a supposed threat and I sit here knowing my dogs would have gotten a severe correction for inappropriate aggression if it had been us in that situation.


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