# 4 year old female attacked puppy



## Naval2006 (Dec 15, 2014)

My 4 year old gal is a wonderful GSD that was adopted when she was 3 months. Great with children and people, quiet and often aloof with strangers but never showed the smallest sign of aggression. She was raised with a small poodle and the get along ok even though they don’t play with each other or anything. 

Like a month ago I brought home a 2 month old GSD. Everything was ok for a few days but after a week the puppy took his chewing toy and my gal just snapped and attacked him. She’s my wife’s dog and my wife was with the dogs. Our female stopped by herself and the puppy ended up with four stitches above his right eye. Since the the big dog seemed obsessed with the puppy and she’d growl and go hunting for the puppy. Next day I took her to the farm. Brought her back a few days later and she showed the same behaviour. I kept them apart but one day I put her the muzzle on. I opened the back door and she sneaked her way to the puppy and did the same, this time without the biting.

Now my girl has been on the farm having a great time for 2 weeks. I want to have her back home even though I see her every day. I’m planning to have her there for a couple of months until my puppy is 5/6 months old. My question is about reintroducing each other on the farm with the rest of the dogs out there and if that’s going to work out to later bring my girl back home. I’m really clueless but even though we are enjoying our puppy a lot we all miss Kenny at home, especially my wife and the kids since she spends a lot of time with me. She’s the smartest and best adjusted dog I’ve ever had so I do want her back in the house.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I’ve started and deleted a reply 3 times already. 

I don’t think it’s time for a new puppy if you’re having to farm out your adult. The adult deserves more loyalty than that. Taking her to the farm after the attack, and letting her have the time of her life there just taught her it was a good behavior, because she’s been rewarded with the farm. 

A puppy and an adult should never be together unless they are closely supervised and for short periods of time. The energy the puppy gives off, and all the bouncing and jumping and running around they do could annoy the most docile dog into a snap. 

IMO, the adult should be brought back, and the pup and adult should be separated via secure and jump proof baby gates. That way they can get used to the scent and presence of each other without the physical ability to do any harm. It should be a slow process integrating a new member. 

I think you need to go back to step 1 and start from scratch. Neither are learning anything by being in two different locations.


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## Femfa (May 29, 2016)

I have a young puppy in my house and a dominant, fun-police, queen B of an adult female. She does not like the puppy in any shape or form, so they simply don’t interact. The pup is in an x-pen when she’s out, and if he’s out of the x-pen he’s either attached to me on a harness and leash so she can steer clear of him and I can control him, or she’s put away and crated. He also gets crated so she can just be out and enjoy alone time with me. 

My female deserves the freedom she has earned through two years of learning how to navigate the household. She deserves peace of mind and the ability to relax. My pup needs to earn that. 

They never have toys out together. They never receive high value food items unless separated by a barrier (crate or x-pen). I never feed them near each other, and I don’t do food training around one another. I also don’t play with either of them if they’re out together. We just relax and chill - no high energy mojo. 

My girl believes it’s in her right to correct my pup if he does something she doesn’t like, and it’s not. So I just don’t let it happen by keeping them separated. Otherwise my pup would probably end up dead, despite being very loving and sweet towards her. She just doesn’t like him and that’s fine. They’re not going to “freely” interact until she shows she’s okay with him and he’s large enough to hold his own. 

This has all been a learning process for me, and it’s not easy because my pup has mild separation anxiety, but I work with what I’ve got and so far everyone is alive with no missing toes or ears, so I think it’s an okay plan so far, lol. So maybe some of the things I’ve learned and am doing might be of interest to you.


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

I agree with the below comments... 

Getting a new puppy needs to be good for the entire family, including you already established older dog. There are no guarantees your older dog will ever take to a puppy but that is something you should have tested before getting the puppy. Sending her away to the farm I think is cruel, she is probably enjoying herself but GSD's are family dogs, they love their people so you have taken her away from the things she loves the most and allowed the puppy to stay. I am worried that may be a bad thing when you do try to reintroduce them. 

I would also say adding the muzzle is a bad idea, it may actually amp the older dog up more because now she has a boundary on her keeping her from doing what she wants. She could just be playing with the puppy _(GSD's play rough_) and setting the ground rules on what the puppy can do and unfortunately your puppy is to small to keep up with her. 

I would say the dogs are acting completely normal with each other and its the humans that have to intervene to make sure they are safe, trained and get through the initial adapting phase. Bring your older dog back, keep the puppy crated or separate from the older dog until you can get it under control. If the older dog never takes to the puppy then you will need to make the decision if you keep them constantly separate or rehome the puppy.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It can take weeks of separating before you can even take a leash walk with your adult dog and the new pup. Adult dogs hardly looooooove puppies that are not theirs by birth. it was your idea, not hers. Farming her out will make things worse as it doesn't teach her anything. You need to gradually expose her more and more to the pup. Don't forget the training and exercise for your older dog either. I have done this combo a few times with the pup always behind gates and in crate when the older dog was around off leash. Even a crate in a pen so that the older dog couldn't snarl at the crate door. These attacks you described could have very well traumatized your pup that can surface later in his first year.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

My oldest female hates my youngest female puppy because the pup is an in your face kind of sociable gal. As long as the puppy stays out of the older dogs face with appeasement behaviors, we have peace. I have found pushy appeasement behaviors to be the number one catalyst for discord between my adults and puppies followed by high value resources.

I start walking any adult dog with any puppies from day one and have never had an issue. However, I do not trust my middle bitch with young puppies and wait until any pups have some size to them before letting her near them. I really believe it is their puppy scent more than anything that triggers her and that tends to dissipate rapidly past 10 - 12 weeks.

I absolutely do training with any combination of pups or dogs. Stonnie Dennis on YouTube has a ton of fantastic videos showing the same type of training.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> It can take weeks of separating before you can even take a leash walk with your adult dog and the new pup. Adult dogs hardly looooooove puppies that are not theirs by birth. it was your idea, not hers. Farming her out will make things worse as it doesn't teach her anything. You need to gradually expose her more and more to the pup. Don't forget the training and exercise for your older dog either. I have done this combo a few times with the pup always behind gates and in crate when the older dog was around off leash. Even a crate in a pen so that the older dog couldn't snarl at the crate door. These attacks you described could have very well traumatized your pup that can surface later in his first year.


So much of this ^. Over and over and over again. 

I lucked out with my senior GSD. She loves puppies. It’s easier to introduce her to pups than older dogs. She takes right to the pups and mothers them. She’s had a ton of litters prior to me getting her, so maybe that has something to do with it. Who knows. Regardless, please listen to the advice you are being given very seriously. 

You can damage the relationship your adult has with both you and your wife, you’ve allowed behavior that has resulted in injury to the pup, and farmed out the adult and let the pup stay. You need to get a grasp on your priorities, which should be adult GSD first, and pup second. You’ve likely set the pup up for fear of other dogs, and could make it worse by bringing the adult in and out from farm to home. You need a better system. Crate and rotate, baby gates, build a gate if needed. Do not allow the adult to see you lavish attention on the new pup. Make sure the adult’s routine stays as close as possible to her routine before you brought a puppy in. If anyone should be farmed out, it should be the puppy, not the adult.

I’ve attached a pic of the gates we build that are more user friendly than baby gates, and you can make it any height you need. You can get the pieces cut at Lowe’s or Home Depot, so the only thing you have to do is put the pieces together, and paint and install. This gate has self closing hinges so my little ones can’t accidentally leave it open. This one is near our front door, because we have a GSD/Husky mix that is an escape artist, and he would shoot past the kids as they were leaving for school. But we also have the same gates, just shorter, to section off areas where we can rotate dogs without having to crate them all the time. I’ll hang out in the family room with my senior and one of the pups, while DH is in the formal living room with the Husky and the other pup. Then we rotate pups, so they get supervised time to play and interact with the older dogs, but we are there with them to stop any bad behavior, which is normally the pup pestering the adult. When that starts happening, we let the two pups together and the two adults together. It’s much easier than it sounds, but we haven’t had any dog on dog injuries doing it this way.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I crate and rotate puppies and adults. Hold the puppy on my lap to keep them safe while the adult dogs smell. It varies per dog on how long before they are accepted but I would never just put an 8 week old down with a strange adult dog.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm cool with crate and rotate and I absolutely agree with constant and diligent supervision. Now and forever.

BUT, am I the only one that sees a problem with an adult dog ATTACKING a puppy? To the point of stitches being needed? And a female to boot?
I see this as a pretty significant temperament issue, and one that I would monitor carefully going forward. I have had dogs rough up pups that were being out of hand, but I would have an issue with an attack. Especially if it was repeated. If it was a male dog I may, may, dismiss it. But most assuredly not a female.


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> I'm cool with crate and rotate and I absolutely agree with constant and diligent supervision. Now and forever.
> 
> BUT, am I the only one that sees a problem with an adult dog ATTACKING a puppy? To the point of stitches being needed? And a female to boot?
> I see this as a pretty significant temperament issue, and one that I would monitor carefully going forward. I have had dogs rough up pups that were being out of hand, but I would have an issue with an attack. Especially if it was repeated. If it was a male dog I may, may, dismiss it. But most assuredly not a female.


Our female is actually less friendly then our male. We were not there to know if this was an actual attack or just rough play. The puppy also took a toy away from the other dog so it could have just been a dominance thing. I still agree the OP needs to monitor and keep them separated until more training can be done and assurance they will be fine -_ if they will be fine_ - 

But I have seen my puppies fight over things, play super rough... not needing stiches but that could have just been an accident.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LRP said:


> Our female is actually less friendly then our male. We were not there to know if this was an actual attack or just rough play. The puppy also took a toy away from the other dog so it could have just been a dominance thing. I still agree the OP needs to monitor and keep them separated until more training can be done and assurance they will be fine -_ if they will be fine_ -
> 
> But I have seen my puppies fight over things, play super rough... not needing stiches but that could have just been an accident.


Less or more friendly is not at all what I am talking about. Your dogs are barely out of puppyhood themselves and their specific temperaments have yet to reveal. And this particular female did it twice.


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## Saco (Oct 23, 2018)

Puppies always have gotten a pass with my females. My male takes a bit longer, generally, though with my recent female puppy he liked her from the start- really really liked her a couple weeks ago (first heat). 

So, I'd agree, it is a pretty severe behavioral problem if she is hunting out the puppy to attack him. Time to decide whether you want to separate the two long term or come up with a different solution. Dog on dog violence in the same home is the worst, and I have heard some absolute horror stories that make me extra cautious.


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## Naval2006 (Dec 15, 2014)

Thank you very much for so much advice from more experienced people. I’m thinking about crating even though we had both dogs in separate parts of home and we always had them together supervised. It all happened so suddenly and unexpectedly that we’re like frozen now, especially because we are dog people we’ve always had more than one dog with the usual fights but never like this. The older dog became terribly jealous with my wife and that’s the root cause, even though we’ve treated both dogs pretty much the same from day one.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Regarding this dog injuring the puppy, it does not have to equate to a temperamental issue. It can simply be a lack of bite inhibition or the dog's inherent grip. Some dogs naturally bite harder than others.


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## LRP (May 8, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> Less or more friendly is not at all what I am talking about. Your dogs are barely out of puppyhood themselves and their specific temperaments have yet to reveal. And this particular female did it twice.


True on my dogs.. they are both still young but our male is still much friendlier. It just surprises me that our female is not since its normal. 

My point was we were not there to see exactly what the adult dog was doing. What the OP is saying was an "Attack" could have been normal behavior for 2 new dogs getting to know each other and the older one establishing itself over the new dog. Basically the OP put a baby in with a teenager with no training or supervision and expected everything to be ok. Yes, they were there but the 2 dogs should not have even had access to each other at 1st. 

I don't want to immediately assume because the 4 year old reacted like this, that she has a behavioral issue. She is just reacting to a new dog who took her toy and who knows what else. They both need training and time to acclimate to each other.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

LRP said:


> True on my dogs.. they are both still young but our male is still much friendlier. It just surprises me that our female is not since its normal.
> 
> My point was we were not there to see exactly what the adult dog was doing. What the OP is saying was an "Attack" could have been normal behavior for 2 new dogs getting to know each other and the older one establishing itself over the new dog. Basically the OP put a baby in with a teenager with no training or supervision and expected everything to be ok. Yes, they were there but the 2 dogs should not have even had access to each other at 1st.
> 
> I don't want to immediately assume because the 4 year old reacted like this, that she has a behavioral issue. She is just reacting to a new dog who took her toy and who knows what else. They both need training and time to acclimate to each other.


They did see. Both times. And it's an adult dog with a pup. Some dogs don't enjoy pups. But an attack goes beyond not enjoying.
Again, with well over a hundred dogs through my doors, an adult attacking a pup is a temperament issue! 
Snarking, tumbling, growling fall into teaching. Stitches don't!
With regards to your dogs: males tend to be goofier, and friendlier. It's normal.
As to the OPs female. If this where normal it would not be possible to let a dam rear pups. A female should never cause injury to a 3 month old pup!


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Sabis mom said:


> LRP said:
> 
> 
> > True on my dogs.. they are both still young but our male is still much friendlier. It just surprises me that our female is not since its normal.
> ...


It’s quite possible the OP wasn’t aware of the signals the adult was giving off (growling, lip curling, whatnot) and had tuned the dogs out. I know my natural instincts to preserve my sanity kick it when the noise levels in the house go up up up. My brain shuts down most of the noise, and goes into survival mode. Aka, I only hear the kids screaming if it’s a real scream, and not the scream of kids playing. 

Parents do tune out sometimes. Been there, done that. Which means if the adult was giving off warning signs to a pesky annoying puppy, and they were ignored by both the humans and the pup, a bite wouldn’t be a surprising thing. As for needing stitches, head wounds are the easiest to get, and the easiest to split open. Probably what’s wrong with me, I’ve had more stitches in my own head than I care to admit (not dog related). 

As for the second attack, it was likely due to mismanagement after the first bite happened. 4yrs of solid and steady temperament around other dogs, including living with a smaller poodle does not mean she has an unsound temperament for going after one particular puppy. 

It sounds to me like the OP allowed the puppy and adult to interact with no corrections for the pup when he got annoying. Eventually she took it to mean she had to protect her space and reacted. And now “hunting him down” still hasn’t been handled correctly. There are solid temperament dogs out there that get tired of having a mismatched handler, and decide to self manage. 

In all actuality, we likely don’t even have a clear telling of the events. What led up to it, how they handled both dogs immediately after the bite before taking the pup to the vet. What they did after the vet. How they treated the adult post bite.

Handing out bad temperament tickets to any dog that has ever shown one poor behavior in their lifetime would end with every dog ever born being handed one at some point in their life.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Jchrest said:


> It’s quite possible the OP wasn’t aware of the signals the adult was giving off (growling, lip curling, whatnot) and had tuned the dogs out. I know my natural instincts to preserve my sanity kick it when the noise levels in the house go up up up. My brain shuts down most of the noise, and goes into survival mode. Aka, I only hear the kids screaming if it’s a real scream, and not the scream of kids playing.
> 
> Parents do tune out sometimes. Been there, done that. Which means if the adult was giving off warning signs to a pesky annoying puppy, and they were ignored by both the humans and the pup, a bite wouldn’t be a surprising thing. As for needing stitches, head wounds are the easiest to get, and the easiest to split open. Probably what’s wrong with me, I’ve had more stitches in my own head than I care to admit (not dog related).
> 
> ...


I generally like your posts, and Love that you foster and help dogs. But you're wrong here! As Sabis Mom said, any 4 yr old female that causes an injury on a little puppy that requires stitches is indeed a temperment issue...not at all excusable or explainable any other way!

That being said, I - or you - can make this work most likely. Slow, carefully thought out, and controlled interactions and management! Whatever you do, don't trust that bitch with this, or any other puppies anytime soon!


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

Coming in late here, but I'm not sure how the discussion of possible temperament issues in the older female is helpful. Very interesting to consider, certainly, but I don't see how, of itself, that knowledge (or speculation) will change how the OP deals with the situation. But then, I'm of the "_Deal with the dog/issue in front of you_" school, so my take on things is a little different. 

It strikes me that OP has several choices in dealing with the situation described, so some honest, but very hard, thinking should start ASAP. Best, IMO, if you can get a GSD experienced trainer to come to your home to observe the behavior of the two and make recommendations.

First, OP and his spouse can decide to significantly up their management game and do _relentless _crate and rotate (i.e., the female and the puppy are NEVER allowed out together). Worst case scenario, you may never be able to keep them in the same room even if both are crated. Separate training sessions (out of sight/scent of the other), separate walks, separate feeding stations (in different rooms), etc., may be the only way to go. Keep in mind that this option may require a _lifetime _commitment to separate the two (no exceptions!), so be "certain sure" that you and your spouse are on the same page. 

Second, OP and wife can return the puppy to the breeder or rehome it. Whatever's going on with your adult female (e.g., poor temperament, unpleasant scent/sound associated with this puppy, generalized pissiness), it's not working under the current arrangement. Right now, she's a danger to the puppy. That she also may be a danger to any future puppy (for whatever reason) is something to seriously consider. OP has to decide if any future risk is worth it. If it is, I'd carefully consider and plan for how to introduce a new puppy to your home as well as whether/when to bail if things are not working out. I've heard of some owners arranging things with the puppy breeder so that the adult dog "chooses" the puppy that comes home. I've never tried that, but it strikes me as something to consider. 

Third, OP and wife can decide to make the adult female a permanent "farm dog" (tho I'm not sure what that would entail exactly as the current farm arrangement isn't described in any detail). In effect, this would be a decision to 'rehome' the female but to a location known to her and you, and to which OP would have regular access. Or, OP and wife can decide to carefully rehome the adult female (with full disclosure) which would entail little to no contact with her from that point onwards. 

I don't envy you any of these choices, OP, which is why I'm not recommending a specific one. Temperament is/can be very tricky to manage. Yes, it's distinct from behavior and behavior _can _be managed, all things being equal, but only with utter consistency, good assistance (that trainer I mentioned) and significant lifestyle changes for you and your wife. That's a huge commitment though. 

My last male was a committed biter who firmly believed that strangers and ALL children were the spawn of Satan. (Didn't help that he looked like one big teddy bear in search of a cuddle. LOL.) I don't have kids, so the latter was less of an issue. But I do entertain, so management had to be carefully thought through and relentlessly followed. Different scenario, but I know something of what you face. 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

*ETA*. I'd carefully rethink the advisability of a muzzle in this circumstance. A fully committed adult dog can do a LOT of damage, especially to a puppy, even if she's muzzled. Look at it this way, the muzzle can become a literal battering ram and any subsequent injury, even without visible bleeding, can be substantial.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@Aly the temperament of the bitch must be considered in any plan moving forward. That was my point.
And excusing such a flaw will result in failure. I absolutely stand by what I said. An adult bitch that attacks a pup is a serious issue. Not one to be overlooked or excused. 
Since my rules are last in first out I would either return the pup or get on board with a crate and rotate life.
To be clear: tumbling, pinning, nipping, holding-all acceptable. An older dog schooling a pup. Biting and stalking a pup are deviant and unacceptable. The potential for problems here is huge and needs to be faced.


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## Aly (May 26, 2011)

I don't disagree, @Sabismom; I also think temperament is important to consider. I also agree that excusing the flaw is a guaranteed failure. But, I think that the situation (i.e., adult female attacks and now hunts puppy) is what's paramount. To me, it doesn't matter _why _she did it, the fact that she _has and continues_ to do it is what matters most. That's where I think OP should start seriously thinking (e.g., Can I safely manage these two? Are my [possibly faulty] management attempts worth the risk to the puppy? Or, should I rehome one and start over?) Again, my perspective. I simply didn't want the OP to get caught in a "it is/isn't temperament" dispute,_ per se_. Either way, the puppy's still in danger.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I wonder how many dogs have ended up in a shelter because the owners were told their dog had a poor temperament and could never be safe around other dogs, and instead of keeping the adult and rehoming the puppy, they kept the puppy and took the adult to a shelter. 

From personal experience, I can tell you 90% of the adults were dumped at the shelter while the new shinny puppy stayed, and eventually showed the same behaviors. 

I’ve rescued so many of these type of dogs. Some came with manners, some came with no training beyond potty training. But they had all been dumped for a new pup, and the reason for the surrender was “aggressive to other animals.” What it really came down to was the owners not managing the pup and adult. Just threw the puppy into the mix and expected the adult to be okay with it. Annoying puppy behaviors constantly, no break from the puppy, no rules or guidelines, no close supervision, just here you go, best of luck. And then sheer horror or shock when the adult bites the pup. 

Do all these have poor temperaments? No, they have poor owners who don’t know what they’re doing. Some have obvious temperament issues, so I’m not writing all these dogs off as having bad owners. That would be just a ludicrous as saying that they all had perfect temperaments. 

The fact of the matter is that NONE of us have seen this dog in person. None of us have seen the family interaction with the adult and the pup. None of us witnessed the bite, or behaviors following the bite. For me, 4 years with a poodle in the home, and other dogs at the farm, and this is the first incident, points towards the owner for me, and not towards the temperament of the adult.

We can agree to disagree.

OP, you’ve been given a wealth of information here. What it all boils down to is rehoming one of them, or having a life of management. Neither is an ideal situation, but can be done. You could take the pup to the farm some days and give your adult a chance to be home with the family. At the end of the day, crate and rotate, or gate and rotate. It’s always a good idea, no matter the issue being experienced, to bring in a professional breed savvy trainer to see what you can’t see, and offer ways to manage or correct. Honestly, this can be a crap shoot too, there are no licenses or degrees someone needs to call themselves a dog trainer. There are bad ones and good ones. If you post your general location, members can offer you advice on trainers in the area if you’re in the states or Canada.


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## Chuck94! (Feb 8, 2018)

Your 4 year old deserves to live its life back in your home with love! Sounds like the puppy would be better off in a different home.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Definitely crate and rotate. I brought a 2 month old pup into the house in April, and I had an existing big male who was almost 2. Not unsupervised at all for a good few months. Even now they are out together in a limited fashion. They get along great. My big dog is super kind to smaller/younger dogs. My other friend went through same arrangement with a very dog aggressive male. 6 weeks of crate and rotate, neutral walks together for months after. That was a year ago and they are fine now. It wont always work out, but it can. If it doesn't plenty of people crate and rotate in multiple dog homes.

As for judging this female's temperament based on broken skin on a pup's head---c'mon now. How many dog "bites" are actually canine scratches. She could have been exhibiting a wide mouthed loud warning and they could have both jumped just the wrong way and the pup got a knock on the noggin from a canine. A few stitches? If a 4 year old adult really bit an 8 week old puppy's head for real there would be just a little more than a small puncture over an eye. Head knocks open easier especially around an eye socket. I have had dog's get bleeders in that area because they hit a corner of a table wrong. And I once flung a He Man action figure at my brother and gave him stitches. Irrelevant to dogs since my brother only acted like he should have had fur...just a funny childhood memory about small head wounds being bleeders.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@CometDog, Lyka actually did that to me, but on my cheek bone. I have very very high cheekbones. Looks like I have no eyes when I smile. I was sitting on the floor with her after a walk, both just chillin and trying to cool down, and someone knocked on the door. She flung her head towards the door, and happened to smack her big butt canine right onto my check-bone and split it open. 4 nice stitches to close it. I also had a brush thrown at me by an angry older sister that hit me in the perfect spot on my scalp, and bam, split wide open. 12 stitches for that one. 

Not saying that’s what happened, just saying that the force of a canine can cause open wounds in the right place without the dog applying bite pressure.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Naval2006 said:


> My 4 year old gal is a wonderful GSD that was adopted when she was 3 months. Great with children and people, quiet and often aloof with strangers but never showed the smallest sign of aggression. She was raised with a small poodle and the get along ok even though they don’t play with each other or anything.
> 
> *Like a month ago I brought home a 2 month old GSD. Everything was ok for a few days but after a week the puppy took his chewing toy and my gal just snapped and attacked him. She’s my wife’s dog and my wife was with the dogs. Our female stopped by herself and the puppy ended up with four stitches above his right eye. Since the the big dog seemed obsessed with the puppy and she’d growl and go hunting for the puppy. Next day I took her to the farm. Brought her back a few days later and she showed the same behaviour. I kept them apart but one day I put her the muzzle on. I opened the back door and she sneaked her way to the puppy and did the same, this time without the biting.*
> 
> Now my girl has been on the farm having a great time for 2 weeks. I want to have her back home even though I see her every day. I’m planning to have her there for a couple of months until my puppy is 5/6 months old. My question is about reintroducing each other on the farm with the rest of the dogs out there and if that’s going to work out to later bring my girl back home. I’m really clueless but even though we are enjoying our puppy a lot we all miss Kenny at home, especially my wife and the kids since she spends a lot of time with me. She’s the smartest and best adjusted dog I’ve ever had so I do want her back in the house.


Can everyone read the bolded paragraph really carefully? 

OP, crate and rotate or rehome the pup. My suspicion would be that she will stop the behavior once he matures but until then I would be very mindful. Keep in mind that negative associations can have an impact on the puppies perception of other dogs. Potentially lifelong.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I hardly doubt that so many experienced dog people skimmed OP's post and tossed random advice out with little thought. Most of the people I see posting that it is not the ordeal that others view the situation are all heavily involved with German Shepherds, multiple / simultaneous German Shepherds (adults and pups) and they happen to have different opinions of what is happening as well as different advice. Just what are you insinuating? Since I have posted on this thread, I would like to understand what point you are trying to make.

P.S. I very carefully read OP's post.


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## Naval2006 (Dec 15, 2014)

So far the older dog is on the farm. It’s a place all our dogs are pretty familiar with because I take them along often. There’s 4 other dogs out there and they’ve always got along very well. There’s a lot of herding to do so dogs help a lot. I’ve started to see a pattern I hadn’t paid attention to before. A couple of times neighbours came by with their dogs and when they got off the truck bed to play around with the rest of the pack my dog was a little aggressive to them. Both times the dogs were smaller in frame. I ordered her to stop and all the dogs went on with their stuff. My girl also went back with the pack and nothing happened. It’s as if she’s trying to take advantage of size and is selectively aggressive to show off. There’s 2 large older dobermans and she’d never show off before them. She even pairs with a Doberman when herding. 

I’m no expert but I’ve had more than one dog for years so I also thought about getting the pup with the farm dogs in a couple of months as I’ve always done as a way to reintroduce the GSDs. We’ve always taken care of our dogs and bringing the puppy home was planned well in advance with all the responsibilities it implies. But dogs are dogs and sometimes instinct can be stronger so no matter how watchful you are things can unexpectedly escalate. I’ve dealt with big and small dogs alike, some friendly and some not so much but with patience and the rest of the dogs they’ve always got along ok. But this time I was puzzled and honestly I didn’t want the worst scenario with the kids at home. Like they mentioned above whatever you do in these situations is far from ideal and you don’t even know what will come next. I’ll try my best to have both dogs home. So all the advice in this thread is outstanding. I’m really grateful. I’ll keep you posted on the news.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

OK. My point was that this was not one time. It was not accidental. It was not playing. This is a bitch that responded to a puppy violently, continued to stalk and attempt contact after the fact and at the first available opportunity attacked again with the pup being saved from another bite only by the fact that the bitch was muzzled. 
This is not an unstable dog in that she lives with another dog and children. This is not a young bitch who has perhaps not matured, she's 4. This was calculated, deliberate violence against a pup young enough to be in no danger of an expired puppy pass. THAT is a temperament issue. No proper bitch should be attacking a puppy.

I don't think that she's a bad dog, but I think brushing off the behavior is a mistake. I certainly would not ever breed a bitch like her, but it doesn't sound like that is an issue. My point was simply that to dismiss the behavior could be extremely dangerous. I suspect given the limited details that as the pup matures the threat will pass but it may not if she has time to practice the animosity. Training and management are going to be key to success. I would not be reintroducing them.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

You are entitled to your own opinion. I was not sure, and still am not sure, as to why you addressed your comment to other posters regarding reading the OP's post. To each their own, I would just prefer to not be addressed if it has nothing to do with me. Carry on.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

OP, because the pup has been attacked she can very well become dog aggressive later in her first year and you will end up with another problem. So you need to be proactive with her; take her to classes, exposure to ONLY safe dogs, never to that farm or whatever that may be. The odd thing is that this dog aggression surfaces much later in that first year so be prepared. The two can not live together.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

Dear lord, we can argue temperaments until the cows come home. You can bold and insult us until the cows come home. Neither are going to change the fact that the dogs are going to need a rehoming, or a life of management, all of which was written out in plain text to the OP.

Regardless of the temperament, the advice I gave is still the advice I would give. Separation, crate and rotate. Very close supervision if they are ever reintroduced at some point. 

How about we stop getting stuck on something that won’t change the outcome, and help OP find a trainer and advise on the safest way to have these two dogs in the same home.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Jchrest said:


> Dear lord, we can argue temperaments until the cows come home. You can bold and insult us until the cows come home. Neither are going to change the fact that the dogs are going to need a rehoming, or a life of management, all of which was written out in plain text to the OP.
> 
> Regardless of the temperament, the advice I gave is still the advice I would give. Separation, crate and rotate. Very close supervision if they are ever reintroduced at some point.
> 
> How about we stop getting stuck on something that won’t change the outcome, and help OP find a trainer and advise on the safest way to have these two dogs in the same home.


Not sure how anyone was insulted. Really? Way to many comments about, maybe it was an accident or maybe she was playing or maybe they were unsupervised or whatever. I was simply pointing out the flaws in that thinking, and the danger of giving advice based on that.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

I absolutely do not agree with rehoming either dog or that OP is facing a lifetime of crate and rotate based on what has been written by OP. 

Sometimes people have to consider that either the OP may have made poor word choices such as "hunting " vs "looking" for the pup. It is natural for a dog to smell a new dog in the house or property and to seek it out. A dog disliking the scent of a young puppy is certainly quite common. 

A little bit of short term separation and a couple of weeks of closely supervised interaction should resolve this issue. This is a mole hill, not a mountain.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

If this was a friend of mine, and not a random pop up on a forum, my advice would be completely different. But it’s not my friend, and I have to check myself on the forum because not everyone that posts here has experience.

My 100% honest take on the situation from the information provided? They threw the puppy into the household without proper introductions, without watching for signs of bad puppy behaviors or adult behavior around the puppy. Puppy gave the adult enough grief that she snapped at the pup. She didn’t kill it, she didn’t death shake it, she didn’t even do much damage to it. 4 stitches is hardly a massive bite at full force from an adult GSD. Then they panicked when the bite happened, and removed the adult from the house completely, another mistake on their part. Then brought it back a week later with a muzzle on it. Everything they are telling this dog is that it’s no longer important and the pup has top priority. 

If it were my friend, that’s what I would tell them. Hey, you messed up. What were you thinking just turning the pup loose on an adult like that? And then tell them to start from scratch, but that keeping the pup and adult at two different locations is nuts. They need a few weeks of no contact, but still being able to see and smell each other, and THEN reassess. 

Half the members here told me Lyka would never successfully live with any other animals. Had I listened to the overly cautious advice here, I would have surrendered her to the shelter, or turned her over to a breed rescue. Shocking that just by working with her, she now happily lives with 3 other dogs, gets along great with all the farm animals, and ignores ill behaved dogs on our walks. All of which was “impossible” because of her weak nerves and bad temperament.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't know what would have happened between my adult male and my male puppy had they been put together loose right off the bat. Their dynamic made me uncomfortable. It wasn't okay. But after progressive acclimation from ex pens, rotating, relaxed no contact walks, they became good friends.

I have a female who is super neutral and very polite 98% of the time and then can definitely grab a dog or puppy and put a hole in them if they offend her. Taking a toy feom her or a valued food or chew iten would be an acceptable offence. For this reason she has had very careful and limited exposure to very young puppies but she has lived in peace with a lot of dogs over the years.

My old male who is gone now was very trustworthy with puppies. Even if he was mad he would restrain himself. Very safe. Her, not so much.

All that to say... OP could carefully re try a neutral non contact coexistence as puppy grows and see what comes of it. Things can definitely change. If they don't, then a hard decision has to be made.

Somebody else explained their process of ex pen, crate, rotate well early on that is much like what I have done.

I believe the adult dog needs one on one time to bond with rhe human aith puppy not present (same for puppy), training and exercising, as part of a successful integration. at least, that is what I do and have had success.


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## CometDog (Aug 22, 2017)

Mere descriptions of what has happened and people making a blanket judgement on a dog's totality is a dangerous thing.

Perfect example - a shelter with very inaccurate terminology over a surrendered GSD's behavior pretty much squashed his chances of landing in a permanent home. Dog was described as aggressive. Had "attacked" another small dog in the home. Was "biting" when they were trying to remove him from his kennel at the shelter. I was local, and a not local GSD rescue asked me to meet him. His "biting and aggression" that they were using multiple leads and workers to deal with was a horrific misinterpretation on their part. I went there and he was boom barking his head off and jumping up and down. Like a juvenile. I got him out and he was leaking drive, whining, and gently mouthing my hand and arm frantically. No pressure. They said "see! he is biting!". No, no he isn't. Out in the exercise pen he was a beautiful dog. And he was handler searching. Sad. He was attentive to but broke attention from other dogs around at my request just by interacting with him. Aggressive my @@@. I asked if he had killed the little toy breed dog. Nope. Well, then he didn't "attack" it. He was a good 85lbs. 

I had an adopter for him, and they blew it with their unfounded words of concern. Then when he was under for being neutered the potential adopter had asked if they could xray his hips. They said they saw nothing alarming but his hips felt "loose" to them. Deal breaker. This 2 year old or so dog had a beautiful strong gait. Shame. People using wrong terminology and assessing what they were not qualified to analyze kept this dog off the adoption floor. I don't fault them. City shelters are inundated and I don't expect them to be behaviorists that know WL dogs. It is just a narrative to give example of how things can be misinterpreted, describe wrongly, etc.

Took everything to override the idiot portion of my brain and not bring him home myself.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> I generally like your posts, and Love that you foster and help dogs. But you're wrong here! As Sabis Mom said, any 4 yr old female that causes an injury on a little puppy that requires stitches is indeed a temperment issue...not at all excusable or explainable any other way!
> 
> That being said, I - or you - can make this work most likely. Slow, carefully thought out, and controlled interactions and management! Whatever you do, don't trust that bitch with this, or any other puppies anytime soon!



I also think it is a temperament issue. I did have a 4 year old bitch bite a puppy though, it was foreseeable and explainable, and totally my fault. I had two young bitches I put together at age 2 and 3, and they were ok until my brother took care of them for a week (the three year old was his). Then the dynamics changed only I did not know it. I came home and soon after there was WWIII. 

I built the kennels. And they were 25' long and 23' long running alongside each other with 2' in between. The bitches would run the length of them barking and fence fighting. Often the one would pick up a toy and squeak the crap out of it. Add the puppy, who was 7 weeks old. My bitch tripped over him when she was fence fighting, and she grabbed him. I was right there and she stopped immediately. But the boy did have a cut on him. No following predatory behavior was ever committed on the part of that girl. 

At that point, I realized the fence fighting had to stop. I put up a tarp between the kennels the whole length and that did work. After that incident, I have never had a puppy damaged by a bitch. Milla acted a little too excited when I put a puppy near her. So I just kept her away from puppies. I wasn't ever going to breed her, anyway. I showed Babsy a brand-new puppy of Jenna's and she went for it. Whether she wanted to kill it, or wanted to take an adopt it, I don't know. (She was the one that tried to adopt a hairless baby mouse, so not completely out of the ball park. She may have tried to steal the baby.) I don't know about brand new pups, if they smell different, bad choice on my part, but I did keep the baby safe, and no one was injured.

Generally, I put 8 week old pups in with an older bitch and they raise them for me. When Kojak came home, I put him in with Jenna and it perked her right up. When Kaiah came home, I put her in with Babs and Quinnie. When they died, I put Cujo2 and Hepsi in with her. Cujo2 is an altered male, no issues there. Hepsi is an eight year old female. It's working. Most of my puppies came from my place though, so they stay with their own dam, until they go home, or maybe up to 3 years. It just depends. Oscar was put in with Odie for convenience and she had no trouble with that. 

Some bitches really love their babies, or any puppies. Most puppies have a puppy license until they are 4-5 months old anyway.


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## germanshepowner (Oct 26, 2018)

Jchrest said:


> I wonder how many dogs have ended up in a shelter because the owners were told their dog had a poor temperament and could never be safe around other dogs, and instead of keeping the adult and rehoming the puppy, they kept the puppy and took the adult to a shelter.
> 
> From personal experience, I can tell you 90% of the adults were dumped at the shelter while the new shinny puppy stayed, and eventually showed the same behaviors.
> 
> ...


This made me so sad but really well said. I wonder about that as well. ? How many people got a new puppy and the old dog went to the shelter. It makes me sick.

OP, find a home for the puppy. You’ve broken the trust with your dog by sending her away and choosing the puppy. That’s terrible and must have been heartbreaking for her. Especially for her to come home and smell the puppy had been there the entire time.

My one year old is as sweet as a GSD can be. Constant cuddling and loves other dogs like a Golden retriever. The older cats can go and eat out of her bowl and she’s fine with it because they’re “her” cats. We had a plan to get a second dog. I’ve always planned to have two. And while this might change later and I do know she’d be sweet to a puppy, she has the temperament that wants the attention for herself. She’d be fine and behave, but she wouldn’t be as happy as if she was alone. So, do the right thing for your loyal companion and regime the puppy now while it’s young and cute and has a better shot of getting a good family.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

It is very hard to figure out what is going on the internet. My pup had a mark above her eye playing with a litter mate they are small and have sharp teeth. What I do know nervous energy can add to things. In my opinion it is way is to early to tell to ship anyone to any farm or out. 

Max does not like dogs out side his family but always had a playful spirit raised with a Chihuahua who occasionally pushed his buttons and vice verse as what can be expected when living under a roof 24-7. I knew he would get along with a pup but the introduction might be rocky. I remember being nervous overwhelmed but deep down I would of not attempted it I felt it would of not worked out. 

When we came home with Luna our pup that went for a walk and they met on neutral territory. I did not let them physically meet but did walk together with a distance. We walked into the house together and I put Luna in her crate. Max was very eager and curious to check out the new pup. He was sniffing her through the crate intensely. He did a play bow- I thought that was quick he wants to play. Knowing how slick he can be, I watched him and a few seconds later I saw him under the table with a slimy look on his face as he poked his nose through the crate and made her cry. His intention was not playful one nor did he want to eat her. So I made sure he could not get in the room. He tried to go in there intensely curious but ill intention to early to tell. So I blocked off the room where the crate was. I was stressed worrying is this would work. ( If I had added any of Max’s toys into the mix that the pup can take at this particular time I don’t see how that would help and only escalate matters.) Max ran upstairs and I heard thumping and thrashing it sound like a deer was running around up stairs. He took the kids life size German Shepherd stuffed animal and was thrashing around with it jumping in the bed. Dragging it all over - something very new he never did that before. It did resemble Luna the coloring. It did make us all laugh still not sure what to think about that. Thought he may be blowing off steam. Some other owners may have shipped him off after seeing that. Till morning a new day. 

The next afternoon. We all went down to the local people park together all the dogs kids met my sister and my nephew there. I put a wire basket muzzle on max. And we went for a long leash walk. The muzzle was more for me to keep me relaxed. Max did try sniffing her and bumping her with the muzzle which was metal so in that regards to a muzzle is would of chosen a soft leather basket muzzle. I did take the muzzle off with no further sniffs or introductions. Things went great. Brought them home. Still separating them.I made sure max had a brand new ball to play with to keep him happy and not feel slighted. This new pup equates to a lot of ball play with max and his person. All good things. Next day My then husband put up a deer fence around the gazebo where the pup be outside with the dogs but separated. I can see each day more acceptance each day seeing what I wanted. Day 3 is when I removed the muzzle in the house which the muzzle did not help much in regard it knocked into her which she seemed to get annoyed by it as he tried to smell her. From that moment in they became best friends. Topper who looked at me like what on earth was thinking bringing another One of these I’ll tempered beasts home. He did accept her much quicker then he accepted Max because rules already in place. 

This long story because thing could not have gone as smooth if I just plopped my pup down in the middle of the room for them to work it out and have some favorite toys around to boot. Did that with topper our Chihuahua when I brought max home so I learned. It took topper months to accept max. Try to do over-I do have to stress group walks, group training sessions by you and pick up all toys and make sure they are fed separately. Soft leather basket muzzle. Crate make sure interactions are pleasant. Make sure your older dog gets lots of attention. Since your dog bit the pup over a toy I would always put toys away.


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## Naval2006 (Dec 15, 2014)

germanshepowner said:


> This made me so sad but really well said. I wonder about that as well. ? How many people got a new puppy and the old dog went to the shelter. It makes me sick.


I'm not planning to rehome the dogs. The place my girl is now is like second home to us, there's people there all day, dogs are taken care of, I work there daily and my family get there often too. The dog spends most of the day with me which is what she has been doing for 2 years. In fact all my home dogs go to the farm often. I havent taken the puppy there yet because he is still too young but he will eventually get there, stay there for a few days, come back home with the home dogs and learn herding to become a working dog with privileges like my girl. I do not want to give any dog away because they are family and we do take care of them, there hasn't been any thoughtlessly throwing the puppy at home or anything of the sort. We're dog people and we treat our dogs like family. This was the trigger to start this thread, because I've had cases of dogs not liking the pups at the beginning and handling pups and older dogs but never like this. I guess if someone plans to send a dog to a shelter they wouldn't care about writing to the forum for advice.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

If a toy was the original catalyst, there should not be any toys in the room with both dogs. I was in the ER with a man whose dogs got along perfectly for 2 years, one was older one was 2, when the older dog tried to killed the younger one over a toy. It was their second fight. He should have done something after the first one. Both dogs were shredded up pretty badly. They were not German Shepherds although one was a mix. Leerburg now separates their puppies from adults until the puppy is 18 months old. One person who used to post here separated and rotated a puppy from an adult until he saw they could get along. 

There are ways to do this without keeping the female at another location. My first advice is always to bring in a good trainer. Another suggestion would be to take them both to a training facility or club when the puppy is old enough and train them side by side, but with enough distance between them that they get used to each other. The advice to walk them together was excellent. Dogs tend to pack up on walks. You want them to bond to each other.


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## Shane'sDad (Jul 22, 2010)

Naval2006 said:


> I'm not planning to rehome the dogs. The place my girl is now is like second home to us, there's people there all day, dogs are taken care of, I work there daily and my family get there often too. The dog spends most of the day with me which is what she has been doing for 2 years. In fact all my home dogs go to the farm often. I havent taken the puppy there yet because he is still too young but he will eventually get there, stay there for a few days, come back home with the home dogs and learn herding to become a working dog with privileges like my girl. I do not want to give any dog away because they are family and we do take care of them, there hasn't been any thoughtlessly throwing the puppy at home or anything of the sort. We're dog people and we treat our dogs like family. This was the trigger to start this thread, because I've had cases of dogs not liking the pups at the beginning and handling pups and older dogs but never like this. I guess if someone plans to send a dog to a shelter they wouldn't care about writing to the forum for advice.





Well GOOD ON YOU ^^^^^...I can tell by the tone of your post you'll be just fine because you'll manage the dogs and make it work....OP you got a "dose" of what too many here are all about..."the best thing you can do is rehome the dog"...I very rarely agree that it's the "best thing"...but it certainly is the easiest route...as you said most folks who are going to rehome or take the dog to the shelter already have their minds made up....Why ask for advice here ?...I get your frustration......


Again day to day management is what this is about....you've got this....good luck and keep the forum posted....


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

This thread has taken some interesting turns. I hate to derail it again but I see a lot of experienced people spending months trying to safely incorporate a puppy into a new household. As I have stated previously, I have only one bitch that I don't trust with puppies but once they get around three months and most of the puppy stank is gone, she has no problem with them. Of course, resource guarding can always be an issue but that is not a specific new puppy / old dog issue. I am curious as to whether others are actually experiencing significant aggression by their adult dog directed to their puppy or are people recommending such lengthy processes as a precaution. 

Regarding Leerburg, although I appreciate a lot of his information, I never forget that he never progresses to an off leash status even with his small breed dogs. I think he separates his puppies from his dogs so that they never learn to play with each other or that other dogs can be fun. I could be wrong but I don't recall ever hearing him talking about his adult dogs attacking puppies.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I don’t think many here have the sheer amount of experience you do integrating new puppies into a home with older dogs. I agree. 

Leerburg does it because they are raising competition Mals. I can’t find it now but it was in one of their free videos. Dogs in my household MUST get along. I don’t have a way to keep them permanently separated and I don’t want to. When I got my now older rescue as a young puppy, she took the older dog’s bed the first night home. I thought he was going to kill her. She raced toward me, hid behind my legs and peeped out at him. He roared and chased her but stopped when she ran behind me. He wasn’t going to attack me, so he backed off. She won. They became best friends to the point when he passed, she grieved until I brought home a new puppy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

@CometDog - similar story here. Only I was able to pull him for a rescue. "dog aggressive" I had 3 days to find him rescue before they euthanized him. Turns out they walked the 102#, 31" tall, intact, male down a row of other intact males of a breed that shall not be named and the other breed hit the kennel panel with intent. GSD reacted. They had the dumbest person at that shelter walking him out there. Woman should never own anything more than a cat. So I walked him out there, he reacted, I told him No! Perfect. Pulled him. Visited a friend later that week with a 5# dog. 5# dog did the yappy "i'm a [email protected]#$" routine. 102# GSD tried to crawl over my shoulder to get away. He's the only dog I've ever cried over when I handed him to the rescue. I would have kept him in a heartbeat.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Shane'sDad said:


> Well GOOD ON YOU ^^^^^...I can tell by the tone of your post you'll be just fine because you'll manage the dogs and make it work....OP you got a "dose" of what too many here are all about..."the best thing you can do is rehome the dog"...I very rarely agree that it's the "best thing"...but it certainly is the easiest route...as you said most folks who are going to rehome or take the dog to the shelter already have their minds made up....Why ask for advice here ?...I get your frustration......
> 
> 
> Again day to day management is what this is about....you've got this....good luck and keep the forum posted....


Agreed. But...if owners are not willing to put the time in management or training, re-homing is not a bad option.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> This thread has taken some interesting turns. I hate to derail it again but *I see a lot of experienced people spending months trying to safely incorporate a puppy into a new household.* As I have stated previously, I have only one bitch that I don't trust with puppies but once they get around three months and most of the puppy stank is gone, she has no problem with them. Of course, *resource guarding can always be an issue but that is not a specific new puppy / old dog issue.* I am curious as to whether others are actually experiencing significant aggression by their adult dog directed to their puppy or are people recommending such lengthy processes as a precaution.
> 
> Regarding Leerburg, although I appreciate a lot of his information, I never forget that he never progresses to an off leash status even with his small breed dogs. I think he separates his puppies from his dogs so that they never learn to play with each other or that other dogs can be fun. I could be wrong but I don't recall ever hearing him talking about his adult dogs attacking puppies.


IMO, a huge part of this is that you control interactions between the dogs. Puppies don't get to endlessly harass adult dogs until they snap. Adults don't get to bully puppies. Both the dogs and pups are properly exercised both mentally and physically. Tired dogs are good dogs. 

I never leave high value items laying around. First, it can be a source of tension. Second, I want them to remain high value for training purposes.

I bring dogs right into the house, no matter their age. I control interactions and excitement level. After the butt sniffing is over, I get to training right away and the new dog falls into the normal way of things pretty easily. The exception would be a dog with extreme animal aggression issues. I keep them separate until I can get some OB on them and start working under threshold, moving incrementally towards integration into the house.


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

@MineAreWorkinglines, I don’t. The lengthy separation and introductions to new dogs, or in this case, puppies. I give a day with them separated by a gate to get used to the smell and idea of a new dog, but after that, I step in and handle anything that looks like an issue. If it’s a dog aggressive dog (which is rarely the case, just mislabeled dogs), I give them 3 days. But I’m also home 24/7, and always have my eyes on the dogs, and if it’s an emergency situation, I don’t have time for a crate, so I use the gate routine. Emergency meaning a bathroom trip, hiding from someone knocking at my door that I didn’t invite over, things like that. I’d rather shove them behind a gate than pee my pants getting them into a crate. Sorry not sorry! Lol

Our 4 live in the house just the same as when we had two. Sure, we crate or gate when one is too amped up and annoying the other dogs, but usually a quick training session puts a stop to it. While I’m recovering, it’s not an option for me, and DH isn’t 100% with them yet, so he crates or gates which I’m fine with. He thinks holding their head and talking to them like a human is the way to correct behaviors. I told him it’s a good way to get his face bitten, so for now, crate/gate rotate is the order of business for both the dogs, and DH’s sake. Lyka is with me full time, and we are separated from the other 3 for my sake, way too easy to trip over a pack of dogs. 

But yeah, I give the “safe” advice here because I’m aware that my techniques can injure someone not used to dealing with aggression issues, or guarding issues, or any issues really. And no, if I had to keep a pup separated from mine for up to 18 months, I would go crazy. If the pup doesn’t fit into the home dynamics for any reason, I have a wonderful network of people that I know will scoop up that pup faster than I can snap my fingers. And I would NEVER rehome an established dog, ever. 

The only time separation is 100% of the time is when it comes to my kids and a new dog. And by new dog, I mean those kid aggressive dogs that are normally mislabeled as well. Until I get a good read on the dog, it goes nowhere near my kids.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Just to clarify my timeframe. When my now 4/o came home he was best friends with my adult male in under 2 weeks. Adult a little grumpy when he first came home but he grew on him quick.

Next male puppy with now 4 y/o also friends in under 2 weeks. During that 2 weeks there were ex pens, crates, leash walks, etc.

Female lacking bite inhibition was restricted from triggering circumstances with puppies for some months. Basically trying to get them to an age where if she brought out the nasty they could handle it. With her it is basically resource guarding. She does not guard me, only toys and food. Mine are separated to eat always. She would do yard play separate from puppies until they were much older but would be fine indoors. Indoors she is very calm and nothing gets her hackles up except possibly food but they are always separated to eat.

She resource guards to dogs and lacks bite inhibition to dogs so she is not a candidate for free play time with baby puppies in my opinion. Puppies do dumb stuff sometimes and should not be injured for it. I never allow puppies to harass adults but they still aren't perfect. They are babies. 

Nevertheless I have raised 2 puppies into healthy social adults alongside her and we basically have peace on earth. She likes them, they like her, although at her age now they don't "do" much together. But my 16 mo old will lick her face and clean her ears sometimes and she likes it. 

He humped her once and she threatened his life and he got the message. In that instance she just made a very scary sound and he got the hint LOL. I didn't discipline her for that. A lady has a right not to be humped and she didn't take it too far. And then my job is to make sure he minds his manners and does not pester her or try to hump her to the point where she feels like she has to act on it more.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

The months I let pass with her isn't acclimation even...but a chance for babies to grow up some, get their adult coat in for protection, get some coordination and social skills, get some obedience with me, all of which makes it more possible for me to faciliate everyone being together safely or safer, and get them some maturity and good experiences with other dogs so if she does do her thing it isn't to such an impressionable baby but more to an older puppy who responds more like Jeeeez....that was a little harsh, and then gets on with their life being more careful around her.

Certain things about her I accepted a long time ago will not change. At her age now the only thing changing is her ever poorer eye sight and hearing and less atheleticism to carry out nonsense if she were inclined to. 

Maybe a better handler than me could have made her be different. I know I made some big mistakes when she was young including not being firm enough with her about some things. All water under the bridge now


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## Jchrest (Jun 5, 2019)

I can’t stop laughing at the humping. A girl reserves the right to not be humped ????????

Crios tried with Lyka once within a couple days of me having him. I watched, because I knew what would happen. Lyka handed him his balls back after a good telling off. Not literally of course, and no one was hurt, but my girl did me proud! She did the same with a breed that shall not be named who jumped a fence on the farm to get to her. We never saw the owner or dog walk past the property again. I’ll have to re-fence the “yard” part of the property when I move there full time. Right now it’s only about 3-4ft high. Lyka doesn’t jump, so that’s not an issue, but other dogs jumping in is. So is Crios jumping out. It’s the only part of the property with low fence lines, the rest is either 6ft or 8, anything over 5ft all looks the same to my short stature.


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Each dog is different each situation is different I believe. Each past history someone has is different. It is good setting up clear rules to me is especially with a little dog In the house. When I brought home max home as pup topper our chihuahua would take any excuse he can to reprimand the pup. Topper never guarded Andy food or toys but he was **** bent on teaching max to stay away from his Xmas tree toy. I would put it away and it would appear in the middle of the room with topper waiting to charge at max the minute he walked toward the toy. Max thought this was a great game. Topper was fixated on teaching this lesson even pooped near the toy. He was a tight rigid mess. Max would go to smell topper topper went bit him in the nose. One time topper bit Cameron my daughter in the hand as she tried to block him from biting max. He was a mess- Topper looked like he would get sick it was how stressed he was The minute I put the toys away up in the closet.I saw Topper actually relax. I let no puppy tease and no chihuahua correct. It is when Topper came around. I took all excuses away for Topper to be a bully brat. Then started making good habits easy. Teaching them going to their spot etc, group walks, toys away (toppers toys) I saw many changes. The shepherds highly prized toys are put away as mentioned for training (balls and tugs)but they do not or ever guarded their toys. The photos you can see the chihuahua in complete misery. It can be very stressing for some dogs. Max really likes Luna right away and it was so stressful or big ordeal. Topper handled Luna much better because she had not much interest in him. 
Toppers misery -






























Max, Luna and Topper 
























Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Naval2006 (Dec 15, 2014)

Hi,

after like a year I brought my bitch from the farm and took 45 days to fully reintroduce her to the male. She came quite changed after living and working with several other dogs. And the boy is now an imposing 80 pound young male. My wife was key in all this process and so was our trainer. The male received training as a puppy and when the female came home we kept them apart and for some weeks they only joined for long walks. A month later they started to spend some time together after the walks. Meanwhile the bitch got some more training which she caught very quickly and mostly things went smooth. She showed the male her teeth the fisrt to times they were left together but with proper and timely correction by the trainer and a big contender in front it stopped quickly. 

Now the dogs are together and even though the big boy is really keen on playing and the girl has to bear him they are together all day and she seems to be like rejuvenated, playing and fooling around with the boy. Even my grumpy 9 year old poodle joins the big dogs. My wife has started training them on stuff like sitting when I get home in my truck and staying in with the front gate open. 

Overall it's been worth the wait and my determination to get the girl back home. I spent a lot of time with her while on the farm and more than once I had a pang to get her back home but my patient wife would "remind" me to stick to the plan. 

Thank you very much for all the advice I got from this forum. You never stop learning from experienced people. And especially reply #43 by Shane'sDad was highly motivational and made me feel I wasn't wrong in trying to get the two dogs back together. Even when I didn't know what would happen. 

Thank you all,

Alex


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Well done!


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