# Calling the Raw Gurus. Help needed or I quit



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

So I must be doing something wrong!

Dakota has been getting raw meals at night now for 3 or 4 days and something is not right. His first meal his poo was soft, but nothing horrible. I know its the not his kibble since we have been getting a good poo, then a runny one and alternating. And he puked up the foamy yellow bile again this morning. This I think is due to the fact that he showed no interest in his kibble and egg this morning, not even a nibble. So 3 hours later he got sick.

I would have just let him go hungry til dinner but then he puked. I was told its bile from having an empty stomach, so I took out the egg and the soggy kibble and mixed in come turkey dog and canned mackerel. and he ate everything right away. 

Then an hour later, he is whining at the door so I take him out and he goes to the back of our yard and has very runny poo. 

According to my bf the same thing happened yesterday with his poo.

So my question for you all is what am I doing wrong?

His raw meal have included some of the following:
Chicken quarters- with and with out skin
Chicken breast
ground turkey
chicken gizzards
chicken liver
(I bought turkey necks but haven't given it to him yet)

I followed a 60/35/5 ratio and he gets half of 2.5 percent of his weight, Which is 1 lb.

I really want to keep him on Raw and eventually go all raw, but if he is sick all the time, it doesn't seem like a smart choice.

I have added in raw egg, yogurt and pumpkin in his raw food to try to help with firm poos but nothin is working. Should I be adding in some oatmeal too?
I'm at my whits end here. He isn't eating his kibble without things added in and his stomach doesnt to well with whatever Raw I'm feeding. 

This is so frusturating!








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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Could be to much liver.How much are you feeding and how often?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm in no way a guru but here's what I think.

How long has he been on raw? If he just started then I would stop. give his body a couple days to straighten up and then start over with one protein. Give him some chicken (MM only) and see how he handles that. I didn't add organ meat for at least two weeks, mainly because I couldn't find one my prima donna would eat.

I would also stop mixing the kibble with the raw. Give him kibble in the morning and raw at night but do NOT mix it. You might try backing off the RMBs to about 50%. 

It's possible you might just have one of those dogs that have a hard time switching over but that will straighten out.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

No guru here but a couple things popped out at me. 
Some don't feed the OM until the dog has been on raw for just a bit - OM often causes runny poops.

Some dogs get runny poops from dairy, has he had yogurt before?

It may be too much food for him - over feeding can cause runny poops.

good luck, I hope you get it all worked out


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

I would start by pick one RMB and one MM and stick with it for AT LEAST a week.  I, personally, would do chicken quarters with the skin on and chicken breast and that is IT. No turkey, no gizzards, no liver. Nothing but those quarters and the breast.

I believe that you said your dog has had canned mackerel before with no problem, right? If so, then that's okay to give. 

Before starting raw, has your dog had raw eggs? If not, cut those out completely. Do NOT add anything new to his diet at all. If, to get him to eat his kibble, you have to add a bit of mackerel add just a little bit since the smell of that stuff goes a loonnngg way. Then stick with the same exact raw for a week.

If you want to add a bit of pumpkin and yogurt go ahead. I, personally, used a tiny scoop of yogurt. I wouldn't even say a spoonful. I don't know that dogs do well with dairy so I would just put a tiny bit. With pumpkin, though, I put, like, 2 heaping spoonfuls.

Jerzey used to refuse her kibble too and would starve herself even though she was throwing up bile and her stomach was growling. Dogs are so weird. Before bed give him a little treat or something so he isn't waking up on an empty stomach and drizzle a bit of mackerel juice in his food to help to convince him to eat it. 

I eventually got to the point with Jerz that if she didn't eat her kibble for breakfast I would just give it to her for dinner. She was obviously holding out for the good stuff. (These pups aren't stupid







) So, do what you can to get him to eat his kibble but def. don't add anything new so you can get his system used to raw.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: AllieGCould be to much liver.How much are you feeding and how often?


He is getting 0.8 ounces. He gets it in his raw meal every night.



> Originally Posted By: Jax08I'm in no way a guru but here's what I think.
> 
> How long has he been on raw? If he just started then I would stop. give his body a couple days to straighten up and then start over with one protein. Give him some chicken (MM only) and see how he handles that. I didn't add organ meat for at least two weeks, mainly because I couldn't find one my prima donna would eat.
> 
> ...


I'm not mixing the raw and kibble. He usually gets kibble in the morning mixed with some yogurt and canned dog food.

At night he has been getting the raw. I tried "restarting" before. This is my restart. The first time he got a hold of a toad and coupled with the raw and everything else. He was way sick. So I waited for 2 weeks.

I hope so. Do you think its the skin? The first night I had all of it removed and it wasnt so bad, but then the pieces I defrosted after that had skin on. (too much fat?)

And I tried sticking to one protein source, but I'm having a hard time finding chicken MM that isnt breasts. He got gizzards last night and the other night turkey ground up. All the muscle meat I remember is from something beside a chicken. He has had the canned Mackerel many times before so I gave him that witht he gizzards last night. And I know people feed beef heart, and I fed him raw hamburger before. but no chicken..


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Yes on the liver! 

When I was transitioning Doerak, all it took was a teaspoon of liver to get some bad diarrhea. He eventually got used to it, though.

I always do chicken parts the first week. (As long as there are no chicken allergies.)


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

If you're having a hard time finding chicken MM then just find some kind of MM and stick with it. (Gizzards do count as MM, if those are readily avaliable.)

While many people suggest starting with just one protein source what I think is more important is having a consistent diet for at least a week, probably two. 

So, you could take the above advice and quit raw for a few days, let his system settle and find a new RMB and MM pair to use.

Are turkey necks and ground turkey readily available and at a price you are willing to pay? If so, just start with those. If not, keep the quarters as your RMB and just find an MM that you can use for those first two weeks. Like I said, I think consistency for these first weeks is more important. 

The skin def. could have caused the runny poops. If you're afraid that that is the problem (and you decide to use quarters as your RMB) then start him on quarters without the skin until he has good poops then slowly up it. I originally took the skin off then just left it on and Jerz had no problems but not every dog is the same and that very well may be the problem.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Is the 1lb of raw just RMB or all together? Did you half the amount of raw that the spreadsheet shows since you're doing 50/50 raw/kibble? Thinking it might be overfeeding if you're not halfing it?


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Ok.
I have a ton of Chicken quarters in the fridge and freezer, So i would like to stick with that. Livers will be thrown in the freezer until who knows when, Same with the Turkey necks. 

I have some chicken breasts and Chicken gizzard. Can I give him half and half since it's both chickcn or should I stick to one?

As far as the yogurt and the pumpkin, I can just add it to his morning meal and leave it out of the evening. and reduce the amount. 

Can I just give him the mackerel or Salmon for an evening snack, or should it be kibble?

Would a hard boiled egg be easier on his stomach? Could that be his snack?

and Black puppy: no chicken allergies that i know of. He was on Chicken soup at his fosters, then Canidae when we got him. That is until he decided the devil made it and he would have part of that. And finally now with taste of the wild. All have chicken.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I would ive him the mackerel since he's used to it. Give him the chicken quarter in the morning 

No eggs at all until he has adjusted to the chicken.

why are you feeding kibble? just wondering...I switched jax over to raw and ended the kibble. I've heard that mixing it can cause problems.


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## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

I would actually cut it back to JUST the chicken 1/4 for a week. Some dogs can't handle being on raw one meal and kibble the other but many do fine with that system.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: aubieIs the 1lb of raw just RMB or all together? Did you half the amount of raw that the spreadsheet shows since you're doing 50/50 raw/kibble? Thinking it might be overfeeding if you're not halfing it?


When I calculated it I used the 2.5% mark. 

82 lbs * 0.025 = 2.05 lbs
2.05lbs / 2 = 1.025 lbs = 16.4 oz

I went with the 60/35/5 ratio. 

So I calculated:
9.84 oz RMB
5.74 oz MM
0.82 oz OM


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

He still eats kibble because we haven't finished his bag yet. We bought the 30 lbs bag and I would like to use it all since I paid for it. I'm in college and cannot throw away money like that. We still have 20 lbs left. plus I would like to buy in larger quantities and that is not possible until I buy I freezer. I only get one shelf in the freezer to keep his food.









I was hoping that do half and half until the bag is done and then go completely raw. I was figuring it would last about as long as it would take for me to get a freezer. (Am I weird for wanting that as a Christmas present?)


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Stop for a day or so until his system is reset. Do not feed any organ meat or ground meat for the first month. Feed him a chicken back in the morning and one in the evening for a week. The next week feed him a chicken back in the morning then alternate a back with a chicken quarter for a week. Week three, feed chicken back in the morning, then alternate chicken quarters and turkey necks. Fourth week, chicken back in the morning, quarter, turkey neck, at night and one night try a pork spare rib in place of the chicken/turkey neck. After 4 weeks, slip a very small piece of organ meat (size of your thumbnail) in one meal. Wait 3 or 4 days and give him another little bit. See how he reacts.

If you are going to feed kibble, then I would do one kibble meal - either morning or evening - and one raw meal. Do not mix the kibble with the raw. Freeze your gizzards too. Meat and bones for a month - JMO.

I wouldn't add beef or ground product until 6-8 weeks then very little. FWIW.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

So just quarters then? how much should I be feeding 1 lb?


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

well, 1.025 lbs?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: GSDSunshine This I think is due to the fact that he showed no interest in his kibble and egg this morning, not even a nibble.


This is very common in newly switched dogs. They don't want the kibble - the want the 'good' stuff!

You have to decide if you are ready to go 100% raw. If you are - do it and don't bother with the kibble. If you want to use up the kibble, do 100% kibble until it's gone THEN switch to 100% raw.



> Originally Posted By: GSDSunshineWhen I calculated it I used the 2.5% mark.
> 
> 82 lbs * 0.025 = 2.05 lbs
> 2.05lbs / 2 = 1.025 lbs = 16.4 oz
> ...


That sounds good. How old is he and how active?

Remember - these numbers are benchmarks, guidelines. It's up to you to play with them to find what works best for YOUR dog.



> Originally Posted By: DocDo not feed any organ meat or ground meat for the first month. Feed him a chicken back in the morning and one in the evening for a week.


Sorry but I disagree. First, you cannot say feed X number of things - like "one chicken back". Your chicken back could weigh 8 ounces whereas the ones I get could weigh 12 ounces. That's a BIG difference.

That's why it should ALWAYS be the WEIGHT of things - not the number.

Feeding ground meat is fine - there's no reason to avoid that in the beginning.

I will agree that waiting on the organ meat - specifically liver - wouldn't be a bad idea but I would try to find some other organ - like kidneys.


My $.02? I would go back to 100% kibble until the bag is empty then switch him to 100% raw. I would start with a little less than 2.5% - maybe 2% - and see how he does on that.

I would wait on the liver - or start with VERY small amounts - like 1% and build up to the 5% over several weeks.

I would also wait on the raw eggs.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: GSDSunshine(Am I weird for wanting that as a Christmas present?)


NO! I am in college too and totally know how you feel!


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## harlanr3 (Sep 10, 2008)

you could donate that kibble to the shelter and take it off your taxs. I'm new also but I think doc hit the nail on the head.and from what I have read the vomit is pretty common the first few weeks. the runny poo could be cause by many things IE not enough bone ,to much food,change of food,ECT Hang in there you will be glad you did.


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## mspiker03 (Dec 7, 2006)

Also...if you are feeding chicken quarters as your RMB, you don't need to do half and half (RMB and MM). Quarters are fairly meaty. You could probably do (if you are feeding a pound of food) - approx 12-14 oz of quarters and 2-4 oz of MM. It all depends on your dog - some do fine on just quarters as a meal, my dog needs a little added MM.

I agree with weighing everything and no liver at first and using just ONE protein source for the first week or two.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

ok, so I am going to try just 1 pound of Chicken quarter with noskin and some chicken breast for a couple night and see if that does any better. When someone said only introduce about a fingernail size of liver.... he was getting like 4-6 times that. 

I will let you guys know tomorrow if we have any change. Thank you all for your help.


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## ellen366 (Nov 2, 2007)

i have found that some of my dogs are very sensitive to liver and if they get too much they get horrible, explosive, watery diarrhea; so, i use it infrequently and VERY sparingly; i use chicken livers and a large gsd gets either 1/3 or 1/2 of the chicken liver depending on his sensitivity; i also use beef kidneys for my organ meat and the dogs do much better on that and i can give larger quantities

lauri and the gang has helped me; she is very knowledgeable about raw

hang in there and good luck


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

So I fed dinner. This is what it looked like. I will let you know how it goes tomorrow, if we have problems again.


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Good luck!


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## Jennifer McClellan (Mar 7, 2008)

I had the same trouble with our 2 when I first started them and they still get runny poop on occassion even after almost 6 months. CJ goes trough periods of refusing to eat and then we get the bile vomit. I have decreased the frequency of that by giving him smaller amounts more often than a large amount 2x a day. It stinks time wise but it seems to be getting him through his spells.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Ok. So I think things went better than before. I'm not exactly sure.









After he had the runs yesterday at about 2pm, he didn't have any on his evening walk. I figured this was due to it coming "early".

Well this morning, we got nothing..... So when I got home at noon I walked him again.... nothing.









Me being the worry wart I am began to worry. But I had to go to work. So I left him in the care of my bf. 

He got his dinner and went for his evening walk and according to bf, he had a poo, but it was quite hard and he said he could tell he was having a hard time getting it out. And it wasn't very big.









Well it was almost midnight here and I decided that maybe if I walk him he will have a good one.... maybe of he got just a bit more moving around we could get somewhere. Well we left the house and when we walked past one of his "poop spots" we had success!























I was very happy, and I bet Dakota felt a ton better.









But then I started thinking... where did this rock come from? and where did all his food go?

I'm assuming he had the runs from dinner on Sunday night. So he had breakfast on Monday(kibble), and he had dinner last night (raw), a late night snack (porridge= mackerel mixed with a bit of cooked oatmeal and pumpkin, to try and keep him from puking up bile in the am... and we got no bile), breakfast from the morning (kibble) and now dinner again (raw).

So now I'm worrying again. Is there more in there that I need to get out? How would I do that? 

It was a lovely poo. perfect firmness and a decent amount expected for possibly a normal kibble meal... or so. 

Other than that, we are great. No explosive messes.

Something I have noticed though is gas... yesterday he had some horrid smelling gas. I thought he had made a mess on the floor, but he would just be there looking at me like, "what did I do? I'm just sitting here bein a good boy?"


Side note to Elisabeth: And you thought that you would have no one to talk about poo with. Please you are reading a post from someone who clearly thinks a conversation about poo is very interesting and important.


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## ellen366 (Nov 2, 2007)

i can tell you that raw fed dogs have far less stool volume; they are better are to digest the food and the waste amount decreases; i'm still amazed at how small the poop is after feeding raw for 8 mos now; if their stool is too hard and i find tht they're straining, i add some more mm and decrease the bone a bit

the gas may be due to the fiber, could also be due to all the new food...it's about gut bacteria; keep adding a couple of tablespoons of activia or dann active or yogurt or some combination of these probiotics (i use all 3)

when i went raw, i fed a little kibble in the am, the they only got chicken leg quarters at night; i did this for about 7 days; then, i went totally raw, staying w/only the chicken for a bout a month; then i slowly added hearts, gizzards and liver; but as i've mentioned before, mine for the most part are very apt to get diarrhea w/liver so i feed it infrequently and very sparingly, using beef kidneys instead for the organ meat

hang in there; this is an adjustment for you and the dog; it will get better


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Yep, raw poops are tiny and waaaay less stinky than kibble poops. They also poop less often. I think Anna/Dunc poop once or twice a day now and it's small, doesn't stink and degrades in a few days. 

I've also found since going raw Anna never tries to eat her poops anymore...she would try to sneak a few kibble poops in her diet







before but now it's not a problem.

If they strain too much add more MM or cut back the RMB percentage...I had to play with mine but settled on 50/45/5 and it's working fine, but each dog is different. Glad you had good poo!


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## JerzeyGSD (Jun 26, 2008)

Woohoo! Glad to hear that everything is starting to go well.







I agree with everyone else... raw poops are tiny and only come once or twice a day. It sounds like everything is a-okay! 

The gas, well, I don't know about that. Could it be because he's getting more fish in his diet than before? *Shrugs* I have no idea. Lol.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

It's probably just his stomach/bacteria getting used to the new foods...I second the yogurt with the meals. Whenever I introduce a new protein I add yogurt to it for a bit...like when I just added the ground venison or the ground quail, I added 1-2 teaspoons plain yogurt to it. Plus Anna LOVES yogurt. Then by next week I should be able to give it plain, giving yogurt only once or twice a week as part of their regular diet.


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