# Clueless about these bloodlines.



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Would anyone have the time to give me their expert opinion on these 4 lines? Thank you.

Nino Vom Holtkamper

Gucci Vom Fleischerheim

James Vom Kirschental

Xenia Vom Haus Kirschental


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/20371.html Nino
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/347023.html Gucci
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/623853.html James
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/598420.html Xenia

Have you looked at their pedigrees on the database?


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Any opinion? Thanks for looking.


----------



## BlkCzechGSD (Jul 9, 2009)

Isnt Kirschental and Fleischerheim West German Showlines?

I only know Czech and DDR still learning West and East German lol..


----------



## Amaruq (Aug 29, 2001)

All of them are show lines. Anything specifically that you are looking for?


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

These are the parents of my 2 dogs that are New Skete Shepherds. The quality of my dogs' has been questioned because of questionable breeding practices by the Monks that I was completely unaware of. I know nothing about deciphering pedigrees so I thought I'd lay it out for those folks that are knowledgeable. Anything stand out here? Thank you.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Linebreeding in the first two posted.
THe Kirschental kennel, IMO is about as far as a working showline you can get. I like the Kirschentals. I am not knowledgable enough to critique. 
I think the New Skete thread was more about the practices of the kennel and what it use to be, vs now, & the prices they charge, not so much about your particular dogs.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Jane, look at the breeding on James Vom Kirschental, have a feeling that this is not a dog born at Kirschental Kennels in Germany.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

There were a couple of PMs that disturbed me.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

for some reason, PDB won't load for me right now...


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Well this kind of illustrates my point in the other thread - just because you can buy some titled show dogs and breed two together doesn't really mean a whole lot, at least not to me. The breeding is as much about the breeder than the dogs.

As for the dogs....I like the combo of SchH and HGH titles in Xenia's pedigree.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

lrodptl, I can't say anything bad about your dog. One of the best dogs in my house is a showline and basic BYB bloodlines. But she has great temperament and very out going.

Which two are the sire and dam of your dog.

If a dog is born in Germany they have a SV registration number that starts with SZ.

James Von Kirschental, has a DL number which is an AKC registration.

Also if you note the real Kirchental dogs are to my knowledge VOM not Von. I think there is maybe a son that is breeding under the vom haus Kirschental kennel name.
http://www.kirschenbach.de/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

So you can still have a nice pup but people can disagree with what your breeder or another breeder does. You pup is what it is and people's opinions are going to change that. So if you love you dog then what do you really care waht other people think.

Val


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Wisc,thank you for your input. James is a Vom according to my paperwork. Our adult New Skete Shepherd is a magnificent family dog with absolutely no temperament or medical issues. Our pup seems to be a little bolder but still full of affection. All I know is how I was treated both times by the Monks and the excellence of our dogs as companions. All the criticism has encouraged me to find out more about the lines. Nino and Gucci are the adult males parents and James and Xenia are the pup's. Thanks again.

The James Von Kirschental is not the line that I have on my Litter Certificate.James does have a DN08039801 but is listed as VOM.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

OK, I would have to do some more digging for info.

Ya know what they say about opinions every one has one.

Honestly there are many a GSD out there with pedigree's full of titled parents and I wouldn't trade my Cheyenne for any of them. I love her and she is a great dog and a great ambassador of the bred. For three days last week I felt like I had a revolving door on the house with furnace guys in and out a zillion times, I had Cheyenne in the Laundry room and each time they went in or out, she jumped up and was hanging on her gate for them to stop and pet her. 2 of the 4 guys didn't care for GSD's but Cheyenne won them over and they stopped and gave her pets also.

But I think the bottom line is that you love your dogs and are happy with them.

Val


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Well I was certainly ignorant about breeding and some peoples' criticisms got me wondering and concerned. I was extremely lucky the first time and the new pup seems quite balanced also in the 3 weeks I've had him. I e-mailed the Kirschental kennels about James and Xenia,hopefully they get back to me. Thanks again.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

Did you look at the link for Kirschental Kennels on my other post.

Kirschental dogs are usually very nice dogs. Karl was always a stickler that the dgos must be able to work and in his case it was herd. He also liked nice looking dogs. So normally you get a nice blanced dog with Kirschental lines. There are a few US breeders that have been able to puchase some nice Kirschental dogs and have done some nice breedings with them. Every now and then I see a litter posted as double Kirschental, that would be sire and dam are Kirschental dogs.

Don't be hurt if you don't hear back from Kirschental, they aren't exactly spring chickens any more. This kennel has been around for a long time.

Val


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

I used your link,thanks.The new pup would have Kirschentals as both parents. Xenia's papers are all in German so I have no idea what they say. With all this talk about the Kirschentals I actually thought Nino and his line was more impressive but what do I know.


----------



## WiscTiger (Sep 25, 2002)

I have a project that I am just about done with then I can do some more digging for you.

Impressive is in the eye of the beholder, some don't care for Kirschental lines, others will die for them. 

Val


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

I very much appreciate your efforts.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

What are you looking to find out?


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Good for you for wanting to learn more! I started with a dog I was given and then I got a dog doing the best I could with what I knew. From then on it was years of enjoyable learning about the breed, learning about training, finding a wonderful hobby, etc. 
You are asking questions and learning... who knows what may evolve!


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

"Good for you for wanting to learn more! I started with a dog I was given and then I got a dog doing the best I could with what I knew. From then on it was years of enjoyable learning about the breed, learning about training, finding a wonderful hobby, etc. 
You are asking questions and learning... who knows what may evolve!"

I thought the lines on all 4 parents were outstanding but I have an untrained eye. I'm learning about the Kirschental Kennels and the Fleischerheim conglomerate and who knows what else.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'd definitely pick Kirschental over Fleischerheim but not really b/c of the dogs!


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeI'd definitely pick Kirschental over Fleischerheim but not really b/c of the dogs!


In this particular thread I'm only inquiring about the lines of my dogs,not the business practices of the breeders which I have no influence over,sorry.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

http://www.fleischerheim.com/GermanShepherdPuppyForSale.htm

Talk about high prices.


----------



## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

Looking at the pedigree, I do not believe James is true Kirschental breeding. Not with several generations of American show and pet breeding on the dam's side. At least not if the pedigree on PDB is correct. I suspect it's more likely a case of whomever registered the dog inappropriately using a kennel name found in his pedigree that shouldn't have been used. Not uncommon, as many folks erroneously view kennel names like surnames, and don't realize this is taboo.

Haus Kirschental is not the same as Kirschental, though very similar. It appears to be the kennel of one of the sons, which still utilizes much of the Kirschental bloodline.

As far as what is "impressive" or "outstanding" in terms of pedigree, as mentioned that is all in the eye of the beholder. And pedigree doesn't matter one iota if the dog's owner considers the *dog* to be those things.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildLooking at the pedigree, I do not believe James is true Kirschental breeding. Not with several generations of American show and pet breeding on the dam's side. At least not if the pedigree on PDB is correct. I suspect it's more likely a case of whomever registered the dog inappropriately using a kennel name found in his pedigree that shouldn't have been used. Not uncommon, as many folks erroneously view kennel names like surnames, and don't realize this is taboo.
> 
> Haus Kirschental is not the same as Kirschental, though very similar. It appears to be the kennel of one of the sons, which still utilizes much of the Kirschental bloodline.
> 
> ...


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Chris WildLooking at the pedigree, I do not believe James is true Kirschental breeding. Not with several generations of American show and pet breeding on the dam's side. At least not if the pedigree on PDB is correct. I suspect it's more likely a case of whomever registered the dog inappropriately using a kennel name found in his pedigree that shouldn't have been used. Not uncommon, as many folks erroneously view kennel names like surnames, and don't realize this is taboo.
> 
> Haus Kirschental is not the same as Kirschental, though very similar. It appears to be the kennel of one of the sons, which still utilizes much of the Kirschental bloodline.
> 
> ...


Rikea
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/125294.html


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I think that many of us start out thinking there are "better lines" and pedigrees. Over time you realize that not all lines are everyone's cup of tea, that there is a huge split in the breed and people have different goals in breeding within those camps. There are things to be learned in each of those areas if you were to choose one as place of interest. 

As far as I can tell, the Monks purport to produce pets. I hope you got a good pet and companion! If you are not breeding, the pedigree is not so important. If you are loving and training a companion, the dog beside you is important. 

The pedigrees look to be mostly West German showlines. These dogs are primarily bred to be shown in the German style show ring. They are predominantly of black and red coloring as that is the preferred coloration in the ring. Having a conformation and gait that satisfy the desires of this competition would be important. 

I had a lovely girl from such lines with whom I had a lot of fun and a fair amount of laughs. 

Maybe someone who shows in the German type venue could tell you more about individual dogs. What type of information were you interested in?


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SambaI think that many of us start out thinking there are "better lines" and pedigrees. Over time you realize that not all lines are everyone's cup of tea, that there is a huge split in the breed and people have different goals in breeding within those camps. There are things to be learned in each of those areas if you were to choose one as place of interest.
> 
> As far as I can tell, the Monks purport to produce pets. I hope you got a good pet and companion! If you are not breeding, the pedigree is not so important. If you are loving and training a companion, the dog beside you is important.
> 
> ...


Someone commented that the Monks use freebie discarded breedstock and I was just wondering if this looks like that and I am now curious as to the quality and history of my pups. Thanks.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh, I don't know where they get their stock or how. I believe I heard that early on Scooter Sherlock, an American line breeder, advised them on breeding, husbandry, etc. 

Once, at the airport while picking up my personal tasmania devil pup, I saw two German showlines pups being packed up for shipment to the Monks. I imagine they paid for those pups. Really, I can not speak to their practices at all. They are not a place I personally would go for a dog so I haven't followed their business or practices.

Looking at the pedigrees, looks like out of shown and titled dogs for the most part. 

There is a kennel very close to me that purchases pups from such showline breedings and utilizes them to breed some highly priced pups for the pet market. I don't really get into that kind of approach. You can trade on the "lines", the pedigree etc and often ask a pretty penny for a breeding that is aimed at selling pets.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: lrodptl
> http://www.fleischerheim.com/GermanShepherdPuppyForSale.htm
> 
> Talk about high prices.


They are "World Class" don't forget! LOL...


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

They are indeed! I saw a whole litter, sired by a Fleischerheim stud, for sale in the local Wal-Mart parking lot displayed in an open trailer behind a car. They were so proud of their use of the stud. Obviously available to anyone willing to pay. The timid little dam was just a dog, not exhibiting anything of particular merit. 

I just looked at the F kennel website and see they have a holiday puppy sale?! Perhaps that Wal-Mart deal was not so far out. 

Sorry to take that deviation from the thread.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: SambaThey are indeed! I saw a whole litter, sired by a Fleischerheim stud, for sale in the local Wal-Mart parking lot displayed in an open trailer behind a car. They were so proud of their use of the stud. Obviously available to anyone willing to pay. The timid little dam was just a dog, not exhibiting anything of particular merit.
> 
> I just looked at the F kennel website and see they have a holiday puppy sale?! Perhaps that Wal-Mart deal was not so far out.
> 
> Sorry to take that deviation from the thread.


Is there any hope for the Holtkamper line?


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

It really depends on why/what it is you are looking for? There are three Holtkamper kennels (owned I believe by father, son, uncle or something like that). They are pretty typical typey, German show line dogs. They have some popular breeding dogs (like Odin) and their dogs would/do do well in the SV shows. Other than that, it really depends on the individual dog, what you are looking to improve on with the breeding.

Fleischereim does not interest me in the slightest, as they are a large commercial kennel/broker operation. They have several kennels/teams over the US. They breed and sell typey German show line dogs. Personally I think the prices are beyond outrageous, especially considering there's no way to absolutely tell which puppies from the litter will end up being the "choice" puppy vs. the "ultimate supreme" puppy at that age, but they are certainly not the only breeder selling dogs this way. I've also heard of enough problems with the pups to stay away, not stuff that they are intentionally ripping people off over but not stuff I care to deal with especially at those prices. I've heard the couple themselves are very nice and many enjoy doing business with them, they do have some quality dogs if that is your type. But just not the sort of breeding operation I'm interested in promoting.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeIt really depends on why/what it is you are looking for? There are three Holtkamper kennels (owned I believe by father, son, uncle or something like that). They are pretty typical typey, German show line dogs. They have some popular breeding dogs (like Odin) and their dogs would/do do well in the SV shows. Other than that, it really depends on the individual dog, what you are looking to improve on with the breeding.
> 
> Fleischereim does not interest me in the slightest, as they are a large commercial kennel/broker operation. They have several kennels/teams over the US. They breed and sell typey German show line dogs. Personally I think the prices are beyond outrageous, especially considering there's no way to absolutely tell which puppies from the litter will end up being the "choice" puppy vs. the "ultimate supreme" puppy at that age, but they are certainly not the only breeder selling dogs this way. I've also heard of enough problems with the pups to stay away, not stuff that they are intentionally ripping people off over but not stuff I care to deal with especially at those prices. I've heard the couple themselves are very nice and many enjoy doing business with them, they do have some quality dogs if that is your type. But just not the sort of breeding operation I'm interested in promoting.


Thanks,and I agree with the opinion on Fleischerheim as it appears it's a business like selling cars. I was wondering how by age 8 weeks they can determine between a $2500 puppy and a $7500 puppy.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I have no idea. When I went to get my puppy at 8 weeks I was there for hours with the breeder trying to make the right choice based on how they interacted and what she knew about their conformation and temperaments. Things have changed drastically as he's grown regardless of the initial choice. I chose based on temperament and size and in those areas he has exceeded my expectations (I love his size, his temperament is exactly what I wanted). His conformation has changed a lot and continues to change. Unless there is some obvious fault at that age, I have no clue how they can determine price differences in excess of $5000. Also, generally as a show breeder you look for uniformity in a litter.

Not to mention the huge variation in how judges will rate and place dogs. I've seen dogs that have won their class under one judge, and then not only did not win but were knocked down from SG to G or something like that under a different judge. One judge said my dog had a weak head. Then a few weeks later the judge said he had an impressive head. *der*


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

Hi ,
yes, we bred this both dogs here in our kennel and sold them later to the Monks. We wish you a lot of luck with this puppy!


Unfortunately some one else in the USA is breeding there with our kennel name and registered also a dog with name "James von Kirschental" by pedigreedatabase.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/623853.html
This is not the same dog the Monks have, it is a totally different bloodline and we have not bred that dog.
Regards
Marion Füller


Response from Kirschental Kennels regarding my pup's dad.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Glad they cleared that up. I see they have also made the comment on the dog's pedigree.


----------



## lrodptl (Nov 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeGlad they cleared that up. I see they have also made the comment on the dog's pedigree.


That was confusing,thanks for the attention,I know I feel good about my pup's bloodlines though I do have reservations about the Fleischerheim conglomerate. But my adult male is such an outstanding companion-people and dog friendly,great health and unflappable nerves that how could I complain?


----------

