# Carmspack



## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

I went to the Carmspack website and saw no working titles on any of them, I also didn't see a family tree with any dogs who have worked. Why isn't that information on the website?


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I went to the Carmspack website and saw no working titles on any of them, I also didn't see a family tree with any dogs who have worked. Why isn't that information on the website?


I believe more dogs from there have gone to actual working homes--(rcmp, sar, detection, etc..)where they dont get a 'title'. and they aren't necessarily the flashy type of dogs sought out for sport work, titles/trophies. Just my understanding from my research/readings and from speaking with Carmen and Sheena.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I went to the Carmspack website and saw no working titles on any of them, I also didn't see a family tree with any dogs who have worked. Why isn't that information on the website?


Sadly for the GSD world, Carmen is no longer breeding by herself.
Sheena has taken up her torch.
Please read a post from Carmen herself, this will explain a lot of things, Carmen was not into flashy titles, and she bred the GSD for what it was supposed to be: a working dog with superior health and biddability. She knew pedigrees as if she were an encyclopedia. 

Carmen was also not into the Internet, Saphire bugged her for years to fix her website.
The truth is, she didn’t need a website, all those pups were spoken for whenever she bred a litter. Most went to police, SAR, etc. The lucky few got one for a pet, but they were not easy dogs by any stretch of the imagination.

Those who are in the know knew what kind of dogs she had.
One was at the US Capitol for many years, serving as a bomb dog, see below.




carmspack said:


> I did not know where to place this or what to call this thread . Easily I could have placed it in genetic obedience, breeding for work, herding - so Buffy it is because she is the subject of this discussion.
> 
> Yesterday was quite the day . I sent a dog that I was thrilled with to Orlando to meet with his new owner , a Veteran of Afghanistan who needed a Service dog . The dog was selected by myself against a set of requirements that I was very familiar with . The dog will be trained and certified by a person well qualified by experience and education, meeting stiff standards of the association he is certified by. By sheer co-incidence the recipient had been a K9 handler himself, and was familiar with "Gore" (Thor) and some other dogs that are in PSD use in Oregon, Washington State, Ohio etc. That the dog was related to the well loved Gore was a bonus. I was sad to see York go , but I am super happy that a persons life will improve .
> 
> ...


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> I went to the Carmspack website and saw no working titles on any of them, I also didn't see a family tree with any dogs who have worked. Why isn't that information on the website?


If you want a dog that will look good in a ring, find a breeder that produces dogs that look good in a ring. If you want a dog that can work, find a breeder that produces dogs that can work. They are few and far between.
The proof is in the pudding as my Gramma always said.
Most REAL working dogs don't have titles.


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## K9WolfAlpha (Aug 9, 2020)

Sabis mom said:


> If you want a dog that will look good in a ring, find a breeder that produces dogs that look good in a ring. If you want a dog that can work, find a breeder that produces dogs that can work. They are few and far between.
> The proof is in the pudding as my Gramma always said.
> Most REAL working dogs don't have titles.


Really? So these are puppies with nothing? Not even show titles? This sounds like backyard breeding to me. The proof is the dogs bite is that what you mean? Cuz that's the pudding. They bite and not just one of them. I wouldn't buy a dog without proof of ability to breed without issues. Are both parents OFA? Or PennHip? Or anything besides pets?
There are so many choices for getting a proven dog with pennhip, ofa, parents titled that no one needs to get a dog with a bite history. I hear you're on the defensive and that's ok because the best breeders are obviously not for you. You don't need them and they sure don't need you. Puppies sold before birth.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Really? So these are puppies with nothing? Not even show titles? This sounds like backyard breeding to me. The proof is the dogs bite is that what you mean? Cuz that's the pudding. They bite and not just one of them. I wouldn't buy a dog without proof of ability to breed without issues. Are both parents OFA? Or PennHip? Or anything besides pets?
> There are so many choices for getting a proven dog with pennhip, ofa, parents titled that no one needs to get a dog with a bite history. I hear you're on the defensive and that's ok because the best breeders are obviously not for you. You don't need them and they sure don't need you. Puppies sold before birth.


Carmen... a backyard breeder... 🤣😂🤣😂

Now I have heard everything on this forum.

I do believe that not only has she been breeding excellent working dogs for longer than a lot of us have been alive, but that her family did it back in Germany, where she originally came from.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

@K9WolfAlpha you said :
_Really? So these are puppies with nothing? Not even show titles? This sounds like backyard breeding to me. The proof is the dogs bite is that what you mean? Cuz that's the pudding. They bite and not just one of them. I wouldn't buy a dog without proof of ability to breed without issues. Are both parents OFA? Or PennHip? Or anything besides pets?
There are so many choices for getting a proven dog with pennhip, ofa, parents titled that no one needs to get a dog with a bite history. I hear you're on the defensive and that's ok because the best breeders are obviously not for you. You don't need them and they sure don't need you. Puppies sold before birth. _

In reference to Carmspack. I have no clue what you are on about, but please elaborate.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

K9WolfAlpha said:


> Really? So these are puppies with nothing? Not even show titles? This sounds like backyard breeding to me. The proof is the dogs bite is that what you mean? Cuz that's the pudding. They bite and not just one of them. I wouldn't buy a dog without proof of ability to breed without issues. Are both parents OFA? Or PennHip? Or anything besides pets?
> There are so many choices for getting a proven dog with pennhip, ofa, parents titled that no one needs to get a dog with a bite history. I hear you're on the defensive and that's ok because the best breeders are obviously not for you. You don't need them and they sure don't need you. Puppies sold before birth.


Carry on


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

I don't know Carmen(?), and don't own one of her dogs, but I have taken the opportunity to search her writings out on this forum for a while now. I find myself going to her previous posts, as well as a few others' from a decade ago. Websites are seldom the totality of any person's business, and with a topic as rich as breeding and breed history, why wouldn't anyone want to look for commonality, rather than reduce a stranger without enough information? She has a wealth of experience.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

s1I have communicated with Carmen several times and she has forgotten more about the correct GSD than most of us will ever know. 
Sheilah


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

We are very fortunate to still have 85 threads started by Carmen.


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Sunflowers said:


> We are very fortunate to still have 85 threads started by Carmen.


And ironically the first 2 that come up are announcing tracking titles won!


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## Saphire (Apr 1, 2005)

tim_s_adams said:


> And ironically the first 2 that come up are announcing tracking titles won!


Carmen and Sheena did French Ring in their early days but that was many years ago. She does not like what Shutzhund/IPO/IGP has become and believes those titles no longer do anything to prove breedworthiness. I cannot articulate the way she does to describe her “why’s” and I wish she was well enough to respond herself. I absolutely adore her and our friendship. I trust her more than words can describe. Her and Sheena’s breeding program is very well thought out and planned. Very specific goals to what they feel is the ideal working GSD.


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

Old thread, mentions hips.

And don’t miss this link she posted:





Birch-Bark Hill


Tracking Dogs, Dogs and Wildlife -- Home of Tracking Champion Carmspack Trust CD RN




birchbarkhill.blogspot.com













Carmspack Blast - had a blast , new title


Congratulating Sue Coutts and her Carmspack Blast TD who is now officially a UDT - titled Urban Tracking Dog . (Blast got his Urban Tracking Dog title yesterday doing an amazing track, receiving many compliments on how he worked.) The trial was held this past Saturday when there was a...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Sunflowers said:


> Old thread, mentions hips.
> 
> And don’t miss this link she posted:
> 
> ...


This was the lady I was hoping to connect with in North Bay. I believe in total she had three Carmspack dogs. 

I find it entertaining that someone who referred to Carmen as a backyard breeder has not bothered to comment on the thread. He seemed so willing to speak on Valors thread.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

@K9WolfAlpha 

Carmen has bred working dogs for 40 years. Both parents of my dog have hip and elbow ratings and genetic testing.

No, her dogs don't have show titles. Few of them have sport titles.

This dog had neither. She was a working dog with 12 real bites and 104 explosive finds in Afghanistan.










That's me and my dog Fama. I went on to be a trainer of military, LE and CWD dogs and handlers for several years. I trained a couple hundred working dogs. Most certainly none of them had titles.

I understand that you have an opinion about what makes a good breeder, and that is all fine and well. Just try to understand that there are thousands of dogs out there that do work, saving lives, that may not fall into your realm of understanding.

This is my thread that you commented on. I suggest that you read it from the beginning and watch the videos before you continue throwing stones.









Carmspack puppy inbound!!!


Tentative name is Valor




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

@David Winners,
Those of us who know your story will admire you and love Fama forever.
We will never forget her.
Valor has huge paws to fill ❤ Glad he is well on his way.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

Fama! @David Winners love seeing pictures of her. Love her story. 
Sometimes a dog comes along that changes everything.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sunflowers said:


> @David Winners,
> Those of us who know your story will admire you and love Fama forever.
> We will never forget her.
> Valor has huge paws to fill ❤ Glad he is well on his way.


He is well on his way. In some ways he is a better dog (for me) than Fama. She had some baggage 

She was an amazing dog that taught me a lot and saved my life a lot. She also did amazingly well as a family dog in retirement. She was also 4 when I got her and had a few challenging habits that were less than desirable. I wouldn't trade my time with her for anything, but I feel like I'm closer to Valor. I always said that I wished I had Fama as a puppy. I think she would have been a bit different.

Valor and Fama are very similar in a lot of ways. He often reminds me of her. He is just easy where she was a constant challenge. I think a lot of that is my experience level now compared to brand new handler back then. 

If I took a day to decode and describe a perfect dog for me, I think it would be Valor. He's got some things to prove in the future, but it's looking about as good as I could ever hope for at this point.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Fama! @David Winners love seeing pictures of her. Love her story.
> Sometimes a dog comes along that changes everything.


Sometimes you get the dog you need and not the dog you want lol. The learning curve was steep and fruitful.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

David Winners said:


> Sometimes you get the dog you need and not the dog you want lol. The learning curve was steep and fruitful.


Been there. Done that. Lol. But oh what a journey.


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## Springbrz (Aug 13, 2013)

I'll play...
While I understand Carmen's breeding program is considered legendary by many. And, that many members here have or have had products of her breeding's with great satisfaction in the dogs. And, in the past, when she was active here I always found her advise and wisdom to be profoundly helpful to me. Even as a the lowly pet owner of a genetic misfit of a GSD. The woman knows her stuff without question.
While I whole heartedly agree that a good breeder with a mindful breeding program doesn't need to title their dogs I understand where @K9WolfAlpha is coming from. If I wanted to be bothered with taking the time I'm confident that a quick search in the "finding a breeder" forum would yield me hundreds if not thousands of posts/comments that state exactly what K9wolfalpha questioned in their original post. That is... that many, many members here, including several that have commented in this thread have on numerous occasions told those looking for advise on how to tell a good breeder from a bad one was that they health tested and "TITLED" their dogs. That without titles to prove the lines worth one wouldn't know what they were getting. That in Germany, the origin of the breed, it is required to title to prove breed worthiness and breed legitimately for good reason. The whole idea of the titling process was to do just that...Prove workability and breed worthiness.
It has been told in rote on this forum for years that good reputable breeders health check and "title" their dogs and if they don't it would be a red flag. 
So, while I don't think it was fair to call out Carmen and the Carmspack lines specifically, I do understand the OP's thought process. 
Just my perspective...


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I would add that most of those posts that stress the importance of titles also include real work in the same context.

When the target market for your breeding program is LE, MIL, SAR, you don't need a web page, online presence, or a list of titles to sell dogs. You need a successful program that produces dogs that handlers like to work, trainers like to train and that have successful careers doing the work.

Perspective is important. While I agree that the average forum member looking for a sport dog or active pet would do well by seeking out breeders that title their dogs, someone looking for a working dog will have different or rather additional criteria in mind when selecting a breeder.

So I understand, and typically agree with, the dead horse argument for titled parents. I used my own criteria when selecting a breeder. I feel I have the knowledge to do so. The perfect dog for me is not the perfect dog for the first time owner looking for a puppy. Valor in a novice home would be a train wreck with teeth. 

Here is a recent example. A puppy from a well respected breeder (who titles their dogs, runs a club where many of their dogs train, stays in touch with her dogs) went to an active home. They did everything right. Plenty of training, exercise, right food etc... They could never really get a handle on the dog. It was reactive, had some health issues due to stress and such. The dog was returned to the breeder as a young adult. It immediately turned around. No issues. Good with other dogs and kids. Ready to work or chill. All around nice dog. It recently went to a retired military handler and is a great fit for his family.

So how do you give advice on a breeder? You go with standard criteria. You also suggest that the prospective buyer go to a club so they can get a handle on what GSDs are like, and to learn a little about what they may prefer in a dog. Get hands on with the parents and other dogs that the breeder has produced etc.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

David Winners said:


> I would add that most of those posts that stress the importance of titles also include real work in the same context.
> 
> When the target market for your breeding program is LE, MIL, SAR, you don't need a web page, online presence, or a list of titles to sell dogs. You need a successful program that produces dogs that handlers like to work, trainers like to train and that have successful careers doing the work.
> 
> ...


GSD are not for everyone. 
Not even for many that already have them.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

WNGD said:


> GSD are not for everyone.
> Not even for many that already have them.


I go even further, dogs are not for everyone. Not even many that have them. 😳


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## REEHGE (Feb 16, 2020)

Springbrz said:


> I'll play...
> While I understand Carmen's breeding program is considered legendary by many. And, that many members here have or have had products of her breeding's with great satisfaction in the dogs. And, in the past, when she was active here I always found her advise and wisdom to be profoundly helpful to me. Even as a the lowly pet owner of a genetic misfit of a GSD. The woman knows her stuff without question.
> While I whole heartedly agree that a good breeder with a mindful breeding program doesn't need to title their dogs I understand where @K9WolfAlpha is coming from. If I wanted to be bothered with taking the time I'm confident that a quick search in the "finding a breeder" forum would yield me hundreds if not thousands of posts/comments that state exactly what K9wolfalpha questioned in their original post. That is... that many, many members here, including several that have commented in this thread have on numerous occasions told those looking for advise on how to tell a good breeder from a bad one was that they health tested and "TITLED" their dogs. That without titles to prove the lines worth one wouldn't know what they were getting. That in Germany, the origin of the breed, it is required to title to prove breed worthiness and breed legitimately for good reason. The whole idea of the titling process was to do just that...Prove workability and breed worthiness.
> It has been told in rote on this forum for years that good reputable breeders health check and "title" their dogs and if they don't it would be a red flag.
> ...


I think this general topic has been beat beat to death a few times in threads past, I believe I understand the thought process and mostly agree with what is said here. I would say titles are a good thing to see when looking for a breeder, hoping that the breeder is active with their dogs and has a good understanding of their breeding stock and how it compares to others, the breed standard, etc... However it is only a tiny snapshot of the whole picture and if anyone is under the illusion that an igp title universally means they are getting a top quality dog -- I predict pain


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

Springbrz, that's exactly what I've been thinking. Thanks for expressing it so well.


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## TAPAL2017 (May 21, 2017)

David Winners said:


> I would add that most of those posts that stress the importance of titles also include real work in the same context.
> 
> When the target market for your breeding program is LE, MIL, SAR, you don't need a web page, online presence, or a list of titles to sell dogs. You need a successful program that produces dogs that handlers like to work, trainers like to train and that have successful careers doing the work.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly -- tried to explain this in a pm to someone looking into local GSD breeders recently. Pretty sure I lost them in the process. Clearly and succinctly said--- an additonal important layer that is often overlooked in the breeder selection process... Thanks for articulating this so well. Also please keep updating us on Valor's progress! =)


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

drparker151 said:


> I go even further, dogs are not for everyone. Not even many that have them. 😳


The thing is that many people who think they would never consider a Dobe, a Rottie, a Pit or Mastiff don't hesitate to buy a "beautiful GSD I always wanted" without knowing how challenging they can be in the wrong hands


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

Never thought of that as I was surprised at how many people are afraid of them. We live and travel full time in an RV so every weekend the campgrounds are full of dogs that have never seen any real training and are out of control with owners be pulled along or completely oblivious to bad behavior.

pet peeve is constant barking with owner right there doing nothing to correct the dog.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

drparker151 said:


> Never thought of that as I was surprised at how many people are afraid of them. We live and travel full time in an RV so every weekend the campgrounds are full of dogs that have never seen any real training and are out of control with owners be pulled along or completely oblivious to bad behavior.
> 
> pet peeve is constant barking with owner right there doing nothing to correct the dog.


We camp a lot as well and see the same things. State parks are better as there is more space, but it's still a hassle sometimes.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Deja's breeder's doesn't have titled dogs either but they are sold for service and law enforcement. Would not go anywhere else. She is everything I could have wanted in a GSD


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

I think it depends want you want in a dog specifically and depending what that is you look for breeders who do things with their dogs with goals that are aligned. Balance is important and just because a breeder does a specific interest with there dog it’s dependent on the breeder as to other goals which often is more then one goal. Every pup in every litter are different so along with that it’s important to have a breeder who is honest and truthful and it’s still a risk if the pup is to turn out as expected.

I grew up as a kid the 80’s my friends gsd saved our butts as kids often I had a dog gsd mix who I loved dearly (and why I am so I treated in the animal world) but fled when confronted with major conflict dealing with whackos on the streets as a kid in the 80’s (the 80’s were great growing up but there were so many times I can say how lucky I am to be here ) A dog with strong protective instincts will always be in my home -its a must.

When I was getting my next gsd Max, I wanted a dog with healthy drive but some less degrees of seriousness not a lot but a few notches less.( I had a excellent gsd but I did not have him as a pup and did acquire the skills in training a dog like that but did not realize until much later it was all his genetics that made him so well behaved)
We looked into protection trained shepherds at the time and they were incredibly expensive. As with my training level and having young kids and a tiny dog -I did not want to give myself and serious repercussions for training mistakes as I do like to spoil at times if given something to much to handle. I also emailed quite a few breeders as my concerns with chihuahuas kids never answered back. I did not have specific goals but the wants were a dog I can do scent work with , protective instincts and social family wise so my kids can enjoy him.

I did get a pup from a showline breeder (asl)who had police use her dogs as cadaver dogs. That impressed me the most.

When picking up Max as a pup he was reluctant to leave his shihtzu friend that he made. His dam and litter of pups gated off in the next room watching in silence of the transaction. The breeder said two other people came to pick up their pups prior to me and I can tell Max new exactly what was going on. He cried all the way home in the car but bounced around the house as I put him down in the ground even after being greeted by our very not accepting at the moment chihauhua. Chasing leaves in the yard playing with my son and standing right next me (when the back kitchen for was open) when all the trees where blowing in really strong winds. At 8 weeks on his first day home is saw alot of what he is today.

Max would give his all to protect me if there were any reason to I would put my life on that one. He is my heart dog. My skills went up levels. He is great with all friends new & old family that come over. He is is quite a character and keeps us laughing constantly. My nephew 6 jumped off the couch during a crazed charoke sleep over and landed right in Max and he did not blink. Max is a dog that is in the middle of all the craziness. 

The third gsd we figure to try wgsl. Luna is sweet as can be. She did not bat an eye bringing her home and acted as she lived here from day one. She herself has protection instincts but easy going (less suspicion) and a little softer for the kids to take on walks. She will often go with my daughter on store runs and walks in the neighborhood with my son. She is exactly what I wanted in having a second gsd. She is the mother hen of all the little kids that come here. Luna’s breeder who has showlines, sport lines dogs that do go off to sar and therapy work.

I commend all great breeders for making people incredibly happy with solid dogs.


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