# Anybody skip the puppy vaccine series? If so, what do I need to have on hand in case



## Dustin4321

My pup has had one round of shots from the breeder. Distemper, parvo and adenovirus. I am personally against vaccines for many reasons I won't go into here but I have limited knowledge on puppy vaccines. I believe most of what I've read concerns adult dogs. 

Has anybody only done one round of vaccines with their pup? I honestly am worried about vaccinosis occurring from over vaccination. Though I HATE this fear motive instilled into people about "if you don't vaccinate, she'll get sick and die!" Which I don't believe but is like to hear some experiences and get some preemptive naturals on hand, or even cures.

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## Sunflowers

Parvo is no joke.
Neither are the other illnesses for which dogs are vaccinated. 
Vaccinate your dog, and titer after she acquires immunity if you don't wish to over vaccinate, but honestly, not doing so is playing Russian roulette with your dog's health.


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## NancyJ

No, I don't think even Dr Dodds recommends that.

One vaccination will do nothing for them; you need two given about 3 weeks apart.
The one given by the breeder is probably a wash due to maternal antibodies.

You can give two DAPP separated by the right time after the pup is about 10 weeks then about 3-4 weeks later pull a titer (all you can get on the titer is distemper and parvo that I know of but those are the likely ones). Dodds recommends a booster 1 year later then be done with it. The modified live virus in most DAPP vaccines is not one likely to cause reactions. It is the killed vaccines with adjuvant that are the most reactive (like the rabies vaccine which you must give, by law)

A lot of pups on this forum have caught parvo. It is a deadly disease. I did my titer after I boostered 1 year post puppy series.


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## Dustin4321

Okay thanks. Follow up: wouldn't it be better to split them up a week or so apart? Distemper now and one week later parvo, then two more weeks and distemper again, then another week and finish the parvo? Ideally it would introduce the disease to the pup one at a time giving her a better chance to develop an immunity, rather than her immune system identifying both together as one. 

And doesn't a balanced raw diet do really well to fight all the diseases and potential damage from vaccinations?

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## NancyJ

Dr Dodds is as minimalist as I have seen on vaccines and this is her schedule.

Dr-Dodds-ChangingVaccProtocol

Personally I would go ahead and give the adenovirus because it HAS recurred in the US coming across the Mexican and Canadian border. She took it off her protocol because there had been no cases in this country for many years but it is back. Also, you will spend a ton of money finding a vet with just parvo and just distemper vaccines unless you are working with a holistic veterinarian...and even so expect to empty your pockets for them. 

I cross posted.......you can split the distemper and the parvo if you can find the single unit vaccines. They can be hard to come by, even for veterinarians. And a standard vet simply won't stock them, nor will a farm store.....Sure a good immune system is good but disease and death are still a reality. 

I had a great uncle die from the measles when he was 13. His 10 brothers and sisters all grew to healthy adulthood before vaccinations were given to kids and lived a healthy robust farm life out in the country about as natural as you can get back in the early 1900s. Some earlier more wonderful "healty life" is no guarantee. 

But you are fighting with fire when you fight with some of these diseases. As long as you aware they are very virulent, they kill dogs, even healthy dogs you have to figure what risks you will take.


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## lyssa62

as much as I HATE drug companies for humans or furbabies...HATE them...I do get my pups vaccinated...my inside only cats have NEVER had a shot and wont' ever. That was the reason I got denied as a rescue home for a dog  

I just can't chance it in our community ..there was a deadly outbreak of parvo not too long ago that cost a LOT of dogs their lives


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## LisaT

One vaccination *will* protect....it has to be given after maternal antibodies wane, and the immune system is mature enough for long term immunization for hold. And the kicker is that these may be at different times for the core illnesses, which makes it nearly impossible for someone without lab access to determine the right timing to get it exact - you'd have to have separate vaccines too.

I'm sure that Kris Kristine has posted the new vaccine guidelines for pups in health, that show if the dog is vaccinated between 14 and 16 weeks, lifetime immunity is conferred in nearly all dogs. One shot will do it for nearly all dogs. 

The problem is when the maternal antibodies wane and your dog is unprotected. This is why most people give multiple vaccinations spread apart, just so the dog isn't left unprotected.

Parvo and distemper are real. Revaccinating is different than initial vaccines. My girl was vaccinated somewhere around 4 months in the shelter, I didn't revax, and she titered fine a year later. Her rabies titered fine too, which was initially given at about 6 months old.


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## Wustenbergerland

On my point of view, vaccination must be done by experienced professionals with care, then only it will work well...


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## Verivus

If you're that concerned I would give a DAPP at 12 weeks and another DAPP at 16 weeks and you're set. Rabies I would give no later then 6 months old. The number of times you vaccinate doesn't matter. As Lisa already said, it just depends on when mom's antibodies are gone. Not vaccinating at all is not recommended since parvo is life-threatening.


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## wolfstraum

My adult dogs have not been vaccinated for several years except for their rabies as required by law.

Puppy vaccines and one year booster are a must. One of my H litter's owners was concerned about vaccines and ended up with treating her dog (had insurance) with bills mounting to over $10K - the dog was definitively diagonsed with distemper, and at a little over 2 years old was humanely put to sleep when the seizures and neurological deficiencies could not be controlled. 

Do not skip puppy vaccines or first round of boosters.

Lee


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## Penny

Hi dustin I'm in same boat as you. I ve naturally reared my dogs for almost 20 yrs now. Recent pup at 8 wks now 5 mo and only breeder vax. Normally, I would complete the core vax, but charlie already was itchy (vaccinosis?) So I'm opting no further vax. He's raw fed, energetic, shiny coat..why upset things. I also won't neuter til growth plates close 18 -24 mos. Btw, charlie not GS but Doberman. Following this site for holistic and then your post. Take care, Penny


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## vom Eisenherz

Please, don't anyone assume that because a pup has been vaccinated means it's immunized. 

The ONLY pups I've bred that were ever lost to parvo were the vaccinated ones, and they were not young. Remember Cierny? Hallix's puppy? 6months old. From mild vomiting Friday night to dead by dawn Sunday, if I remember right (and I think I do...this was definitely something that got my attention...). 

Parvo is a nightmare, for sure, but I've pulled every pup I've treated through it, unvaccinated, including a 2lb, 8wk old Chihuahua. I don't see good things when a vaccinated puppy gets parvo, and you never know when they'll be exposed, if they've already been exposed at time of vaccination, etc. I will not vaccinate for parvo, period. 

I use Parvaid as a preventive, and have done that when bringing new pups onto parvo-contaminated property...so far, so good.


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## Dustin4321

Penny said:


> Hi dustin I'm in same boat as you. I ve naturally reared my dogs for almost 20 yrs now. Recent pup at 8 wks now 5 mo and only breeder vax. Normally, I would complete the core vax, but charlie already was itchy (vaccinosis?) So I'm opting no further vax. He's raw fed, energetic, shiny coat..why upset things. I also won't neuter til growth plates close 18 -24 mos. Btw, charlie not GS but Doberman. Following this site for holistic and then your post. Take care, Penny


Thanks penny. A Doberman is a dog too! They are all our friends! I agree, my pup is fed raw, beautiful coat, strong dense muscles especially for a puppy and she has had slightly itchy skin as well. I'm afraid it was the vaccinosis and now when I add extra eggs and fish oil, its better. I'm gonna have to do rabies at some point because I do plan to compete in a few years, but for the rest, I'm still not sold they help. It's such a fear tactic. 

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## Dustin4321

vom Eisenherz said:


> Please, don't anyone assume that because a pup has been vaccinated means it's immunized.
> 
> The ONLY pups I've bred that were ever lost to parvo were the vaccinated ones, and they were not young. Remember Cierny? Hallix's puppy? 6months old. From mild vomiting Friday night to dead by dawn Sunday, if I remember right (and I think I do...this was definitely something that got my attention...).
> 
> Parvo is a nightmare, for sure, but I've pulled every pup I've treated through it, unvaccinated, including a 2lb, 8wk old Chihuahua. I don't see good things when a vaccinated puppy gets parvo, and you never know when they'll be exposed, if they've already been exposed at time of vaccination, etc. I will not vaccinate for parvo, period.
> 
> I use Parvaid as a preventive, and have done that when bringing new pups onto parvo-contaminated property...so far, so good.


What about distemper? 

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## NancyJ

How did you determine the issues were from the vaccine? Newer puppy vaccines are modified live with no adjuvants and very low risk of reaction without the lepto portion.


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## wolfstraum

Again - there is distemper out there....raccoons and skunks and foxes carry it....my pup was probably exposed to fox or raccoon urine from an infected animal and he died. He did not receive his boosters 12 months after the puppy series on time...

When I was 14, I lost a pup to distemper that we had bought - he had only one vaccine (this was when they vaccinated every 2 weeks with pups)...it was devastating....

I sure would not take any chances with a baby puppy!

Lee


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## marbury

I'm a vet assistant. We had two parvo puppies at work today. The first was an 11 week old puppy vaccinated at 6 weeks with a DHPP vaccine from Tractor Supply. He died at 4:35pm today despite intensive care. The second was a 12 week old puppy who the owner's say was 'vaccinated' with no proof by the breeder; he's in intensive care but still alive. Both confirmed parvo (IDEXX snap test) and with no other complications (intestinal parasites).

Please complete your puppy series.


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## Dustin4321

marbury said:


> I'm a vet assistant. We had two parvo puppies at work today. The first was an 11 week old puppy vaccinated at 6 weeks with a DHPP vaccine from Tractor Supply. He died at 4:35pm today despite intensive care. The second was a 12 week old puppy who the owner's say was 'vaccinated' with no proof by the breeder; he's in intensive care but still alive. Both confirmed parvo (IDEXX snap test) and with no other complications (intestinal parasites).
> 
> Please complete your puppy series.


You're in the holistic subforum. No offense to you as a person, but what you just told me is my personal equivalent of a nurse or doctor telling me that 1 in 5 men (or whatever the number is now) develop prostate cancer. And If I get it I have only a 20% chance of survival even with all the beat treatments. 

If my doc told me that I'd say, see ya later. Because I know how to "beat" cancer and I know my odds are better walking out that door than receiving western treatments. The same goes for the vet imo. I have no faith in a vet that says science diet is the best kibble out there. Id rather risk my pup getting a "parasite" (according to him) with raw food. Raw btw has saved my other dogs lives. 

Now I thank you for sharing your experience, but your credentials mean nothing to me. If you wanna talk pet owner to pet owner, ill put more weight to that.

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## KZoppa

I don't take the chance with my pups health. My pups ALWAYS get their vaccines but I space them 3-4 weeks apart. They get the full puppy shot and then boosters at a year. After that, they get their rabies shots every 3 years as required by law and standard vaccines are given 3 weeks before or after the rabies booster. Beyond that, I don't vaccinate every year. I'm not playing with my puppies health like that.


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## NancyJ

Dustin, this is a holistic subforum but the few holistic vets I have dealt with (they are few and far between down here) ALL believe in vaccinating pups, then again 1 year post, then running titers to verify immunity. Then. no more. (except for rabies).


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## JPF

Dustin4321 said:


> You're in the holistic subforum. No offense to you as a person, but what you just told me is my personal equivalent of a nurse or doctor telling me that 1 in 5 men (or whatever the number is now) develop prostate cancer. And If I get it I have only a 20% chance of survival even with all the beat treatments.
> 
> If my doc told me that I'd say, see ya later. Because I know how to "beat" cancer and I know my odds are better walking out that door than receiving western treatments. The same goes for the vet imo. I have no faith in a vet that says science diet is the best kibble out there. Id rather risk my pup getting a "parasite" (according to him) with raw food. Raw btw has saved my other dogs lives.
> 
> Now I thank you for sharing your experience, but your credentials mean nothing to me. If you wanna talk pet owner to pet owner, ill put more weight to that.
> 
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The problem is you are unequivocally wrong. The only reasons anti science people like you are somewhat safe from the diseases that used to ravage both people and dogs is because the vast majority of people vaccinate their dogs. You benefit from other people being responsible. And what thanks do you give?? You leave your dogs unprotected and thus endanger everyone else. Don't argue about this. It is simply science that has been well established . If you don't understand the science behind it, please leave those decisions to those who do.


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## NancyJ

This is a discussion forum which is open to alternative views and it is, in fact, the holistic/homeopathic subforum.

Were it not for the agressive actions of people concerned about vaccine reactions, overvaccinating etc., we would still be giving dogs annual adjuvanated vaccines. 

Changes have occured in canine vaccination protocols in part due to tremendous concern and pressure about the unintended consequences of overvaccination. There are many people truly in the "scientific community" who have concerns about the excessive use of vaccination protocols.


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## JPF

jocyn...I totally agree. Those people were using science to prove that this was excessive. It is not that I disagree with. It is the total lack of scientific proof that bothers me that comes from these discussions. Its bothersome that other people might be influenced by such nonsense. It is happening in the US/UK with humans and we are paying the price for the ignorance (see vast increase in whooping cough.) 

Its great to be open to "alternative" views but when those views put my dog and others at risk, it pisses me off. Rant over


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## GatorBytes

JPF said:


> paying the price for the ignorance (see vast increase in whooping cough.)


 Sigh. Sensationalism.

CDC - Pertussis: Frequently Asked Questions

Now we see about 10,000-25,000 cases reported each year and unfortunately about 10-20 deaths.

*Our current estimate is that Tdap vaccination protects 7 out of 10 people who receive it.* Since Tdap vaccines *were only licensed in 2005*, we don't yet have results on long-term vaccine protection. We're still working to understand how that protection declines over time or might differ based on which vaccine was received during early childhood (i.e., DTaP or DTP). CDC will be conducting an evaluation in collaboration with health departments in Washington and California to better understand how long Tdap vaccines protect from pertussis. The data from these evaluations will help guide discussions on how best to use vaccines to control pertussis

*Q: Why are reported cases of pertussis increasing?*

A: Since the early 1980s, there has been an overall trend of an increase in reported pertussis cases.* Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years.* But for the past 20-30 years, we've seen the peaks getting higher and overall case counts going up. There are several reasons that help explain why we're seeing more cases as of late. These include: increased awareness, improved diagnostic tests, better reporting, more circulation of the bacteria, and waning immunity.
When it comes to waning immunity, *it seems that the acellular pertussis vaccine (DTaP) we use now may not protect for as long as the whole cell vaccine (DTP) we used to use.* Throughout the 1990s, the US switched from using DTP to using DTaP for infants and children. Whole cell vaccines are associated with higher rates of minor and transient side effects such as fever and pain and swelling at the injection side. Rare but serious neurologic adverse reactions including chronic neurological problems rarely occurred among children who had recently received whole cell vaccines. While studies have had inconsistent results that the vaccine could cause chronic neurological problems, public concern in the US and other countries led to a concerted effort to develop a vaccine with improved safety. Due to these concerns, along with the availability of a safe and effective acellular vaccine, the US switched to acellular vaccines.
*Learn more* about DTaP waning immunity  [140 KB, 1 page] and pertussis outbreaks.


*Q: I've heard about parents refusing to get their children vaccinated and travelers to the U.S. spreading disease; are they to blame for pertussis outbreaks?*

A: Even though children who haven't received DTaP vaccines are at least 8 times more likely to get pertussis than children who received all 5 recommended doses of DTaP, *they are not the driving force behind the large scale outbreaks or epidemics*. However, their parents are putting them at greater risk of getting a serious pertussis infection and then possibly spreading it to other family or community members.
We often see people blaming pertussis outbreaks on people coming to the US from other counties. This is not the case. *Pertussis was never eliminated from the US like measles or polio,* so there's always the chance for it to get into a community. Plus, every country vaccinates against pertussis.

*Q: Are pertussis bacteria changing and causing an increase in pertussis cases?*

A: CDC is evaluating potential causes of increasing rates of pertussis, including changes in disease-causing bacteria types ("strains"). Unlike a foodborne illness where one strain causes an outbreak, multiple types or strains of pertussis bacteria can be found causing disease at any given time, including during outbreaks. *There is a lot of diversity in strains causing pertussis in the US. While strains have changed over time*, strain changes do not *seem* to be the cause of the increase in pertussis we've been seeing. And there's no direct evidence that strain changes have reduced the effectiveness of the vaccines. It's *more likely* that waning immunity is the driving force behind the increase in cases.


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## GatorBytes

Did seasonal flu vaccination increase the risk of infection with pandemic H1N1 flu?


Did seasonal flu vaccination increase the risk of infection with pandemic H1N1 flu?






In September 2009, news stories reported that researchers in Canada had found an increased risk of pandemic H1N1 (pH1N1) influenza in people who had previously been vaccinated against seasonal influenza. Their research, consisting of four different studies, *has now undergone further scientific peer review and is published in the open access journal PLoS Medicine*.
Did previous vaccination against seasonal flu increase the risk of getting pH1N1 flu? Based on these studies -- conducted by a large network of investigators across Canada led by Principal Investigator Danuta Skowronski of the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control in Vancouver, in collaboration with provincial leads Gaston De Serres in Quebec, Natasha Crowcroft in Ontario and Jim Dickinson in Alberta -- the answer remains: "possibly."


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## NancyJ

We just got through with a rather exhausting thread on the topic of whether or not to immunize. May not want to rehash the same old arguments again 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/health-issues/251401-anti-vacc-crowd-should-put-jail-rant.html


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## JPF

GatorBytes said:


> Did seasonal flu vaccination increase the risk of infection with pandemic H1N1 flu?
> 
> 
> Did seasonal flu vaccination increase the risk of infection with pandemic H1N1 flu?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In September 2009, news stories reported that researchers in Canada had found an increased risk of pandemic H1N1 (pH1N1) influenza in people who had previously been vaccinated against seasonal influenza. Their research, consisting of four different studies, *has now undergone further scientific peer review and is published in the open access journal PLoS Medicine*.
> Did previous vaccination against seasonal flu increase the risk of getting pH1N1 flu? Based on these studies -- conducted by a large network of investigators across Canada led by Principal Investigator Danuta Skowronski of the British Columbia Centre for Disease Control in Vancouver, in collaboration with provincial leads Gaston De Serres in Quebec, Natasha Crowcroft in Ontario and Jim Dickinson in Alberta -- the answer remains: "possibly."


stick you head in the sand and pick out stories that support your cause. I could post thousands of PEER REVIEWED articles that support that fact that vaccines are safe and you would still come up with excuses not to do the right thing. Its frustrating, but I hope that by posting in forums like this that others see that the anti vacc people don't have a leg to stand on. My dog and everyone elses will be healthier that way.


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## JPF

JPF said:


> stick you head in the sand and pick out stories that support your cause. I could post thousands of PEER REVIEWED articles that support that fact that vaccines are safe and you would still come up with excuses not to do the right thing. Its frustrating, but I hope that by posting in forums like this that others see that the anti vacc people don't have a leg to stand on. My dog and everyone elses will be healthier that way.


Gatorbytes: You also may have not read the whole article before you posted:

"These studies do not show whether there was a true cause-and-effect relationship between seasonal flu vaccination and subsequent pH1N1 illness (as might occur if, for example, the seasonal vaccine modified the immune response to pH1N1), or whether the observed association was not a result of vaccination, but was instead due to differences in some unidentified factor(s) among the groups being studied.

It is much easier though for anti vacc people to pick and choose passages that suit pre determined conclusions.


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## JPF

GatorBytes said:


> Sigh. Sensationalism.
> 
> CDC - Pertussis: Frequently Asked Questions
> 
> Now we see about 10,000-25,000 cases reported each year and unfortunately about 10-20 deaths.
> 
> *Our current estimate is that Tdap vaccination protects 7 out of 10 people who receive it.* Since Tdap vaccines *were only licensed in 2005*, we don't yet have results on long-term vaccine protection. We're still working to understand how that protection declines over time or might differ based on which vaccine was received during early childhood (i.e., DTaP or DTP). CDC will be conducting an evaluation in collaboration with health departments in Washington and California to better understand how long Tdap vaccines protect from pertussis. The data from these evaluations will help guide discussions on how best to use vaccines to control pertussis
> 
> *Q: Why are reported cases of pertussis increasing?*
> 
> A: Since the early 1980s, there has been an overall trend of an increase in reported pertussis cases.* Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years.* But for the past 20-30 years, we've seen the peaks getting higher and overall case counts going up. There are several reasons that help explain why we're seeing more cases as of late. These include: increased awareness, improved diagnostic tests, better reporting, more circulation of the bacteria, and waning immunity.
> When it comes to waning immunity, *it seems that the acellular pertussis vaccine (DTaP) we use now may not protect for as long as the whole cell vaccine (DTP) we used to use.* Throughout the 1990s, the US switched from using DTP to using DTaP for infants and children. Whole cell vaccines are associated with higher rates of minor and transient side effects such as fever and pain and swelling at the injection side. Rare but serious neurologic adverse reactions including chronic neurological problems rarely occurred among children who had recently received whole cell vaccines. While studies have had inconsistent results that the vaccine could cause chronic neurological problems, public concern in the US and other countries led to a concerted effort to develop a vaccine with improved safety. Due to these concerns, along with the availability of a safe and effective acellular vaccine, the US switched to acellular vaccines.
> *Learn more* about DTaP waning immunity  [140 KB, 1 page] and pertussis outbreaks.
> 
> 
> *Q: I've heard about parents refusing to get their children vaccinated and travelers to the U.S. spreading disease; are they to blame for pertussis outbreaks?*
> 
> A: Even though children who haven't received DTaP vaccines are at least 8 times more likely to get pertussis than children who received all 5 recommended doses of DTaP, *they are not the driving force behind the large scale outbreaks or epidemics*. However, their parents are putting them at greater risk of getting a serious pertussis infection and then possibly spreading it to other family or community members.
> We often see people blaming pertussis outbreaks on people coming to the US from other counties. This is not the case. *Pertussis was never eliminated from the US like measles or polio,* so there's always the chance for it to get into a community. Plus, every country vaccinates against pertussis.
> 
> *Q: Are pertussis bacteria changing and causing an increase in pertussis cases?*
> 
> A: CDC is evaluating potential causes of increasing rates of pertussis, including changes in disease-causing bacteria types ("strains"). Unlike a foodborne illness where one strain causes an outbreak, multiple types or strains of pertussis bacteria can be found causing disease at any given time, including during outbreaks. *There is a lot of diversity in strains causing pertussis in the US. While strains have changed over time*, strain changes do not *seem* to be the cause of the increase in pertussis we've been seeing. And there's no direct evidence that strain changes have reduced the effectiveness of the vaccines. It's *more likely* that waning immunity is the driving force behind the increase in cases.


sensationalism?? haha. did you even read what you posted??? "Even though children who haven't received DTaP vaccines are at least 8 times more likely to get pertussis than children who received all 5 recommended doses of DTaP, *they are not the driving force behind the large scale outbreaks or epidemics*. However, their parents are putting them at greater risk of getting a serious pertussis infection and then possibly spreading it to other family or community members."


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## marshies

Just to throw in another perspective:

My vet supports raw feeding, the practice has all sorts of holistic options for pets, my vet supports 3 year rabies vaccines after the first year, and my vet said COMPLETE the puppy shots. I, like many on the forum, read the Jean Dodds vaccination protocol. But because I wasn't trained in veterinary medicine, I brought the protocol to my vet to help me in making a decision about the vaccination protocol to follow. I suggest maybe you can do the same if you want to go the minimal vaccines route. 

Since you mentioned you wanted to compete with your dog later, I'll make a wild assumption that you might want to get into puppy classes with your dog. Many dog classes and venues won't let young pups enter without vaccination records. So it might suite your long term interests to vaccinate as well.

I think vaccines, like many other things in medicine, should be decided person (animal) by person, case by case with advice from a professional. I am all for no unneeded vaccinations - I skip the flu shot every year. But my mom had meningitis when she was younger, so I opted for the meningitis shot. I think most people can skip that, but you never know if it's the case with your pup and your region. I think your vet will have the most up to date information about trending diseases in the region.


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## Anubis_Star

Dustin4321 said:


> You're in the holistic subforum. No offense to you as a person, but what you just told me is my personal equivalent of a nurse or doctor telling me that 1 in 5 men (or whatever the number is now) develop prostate cancer. And If I get it I have only a 20% chance of survival even with all the beat treatments.
> 
> If my doc told me that I'd say, see ya later. Because I know how to "beat" cancer and I know my odds are better walking out that door than receiving western treatments. The same goes for the vet imo. I have no faith in a vet that says science diet is the best kibble out there. Id rather risk my pup getting a "parasite" (according to him) with raw food. Raw btw has saved my other dogs lives.
> 
> Now I thank you for sharing your experience, but your credentials mean nothing to me. If you wanna talk pet owner to pet owner, ill put more weight to that.



That's rather naive, no offense. A little rude. And rather infuriating because we SEE the suffering that happens! Especially a vaccine with little reaction because it doesn't contain the adjuvants others do. This isn't a doctor quoting you statistics to change your mind. It's an experienced person telling you what REALLY happens. Why you should NOT skip puppy vaccines. 

I didn't do most adult vaccines. But I sure do puppy vaccines. If you don't, you better have 2000 $-5000 $+ on hand to treat any of the contagious diseases your young unvaccinated pup might catch.

I personally have never seen a parvo positive that had a full round of puppy vaccines. I have had coworkers who have but its rare.

Before you think I'm some medical nut that does everything by the book - I DON'T do bordetella. I do minimal distemper/lepto/rabies every 3 years because I work in the field, my dogs come to work with, and have obvious high exposure. I DON'T recommend that vaccine schedule to everyone, simply rabies by law because it is NOT a vaccine to mess with. I feed a raw diet. I don't support Hills or Royal Canin AT ALL. I 120% tell people to do puppy vaccines because it is so FOOLISH not to. Even the experienced breeders on here who are VERY cautious about vaccination recommend it!

Let me tell you some of my recent experiences in order. We are angry because when it gets too tough for people, and they don't have the finances to continue treatment, and haven't formed a strong enough bond that they can stand to be present during euthanasia, we are the ones holding their puppies in the back as we euthanize them and watch them die:

Parvo both of them - one on left died. No vaccine

Parvo - 1 vaccine at 7 weeks from breeder. Died.

Lepto - confirmed through bw - no vx, euthanized

Litter brought in by breeder @ 7 weeks, all but 1 parvo positive. 5 out of the 8 died. No vaccines



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## GatorBytes

JPF said:


> Gatorbytes: You also may have not read the whole article before you posted:
> 
> "These studies do not show whether there was a true cause-and-effect relationship between seasonal flu vaccination and subsequent pH1N1 illness (as might occur if, for example, the seasonal vaccine modified the immune response to pH1N1), or whether the observed association was not a result of vaccination, but was instead due to differences in some unidentified factor(s) among the groups being studied.
> 
> It is much easier though for anti vacc people to pick and choose passages that suit pre determined conclusions.


 
I did read it - and that is why I included in the quote ~ the answer remains: "possibly."


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## GatorBytes

JPF said:


> Gatorbytes: You also may have not read the whole article before you posted:
> 
> "These studies do not show whether there was a true cause-and-effect relationship between seasonal flu vaccination and subsequent pH1N1 illness (as might occur if, for example, the seasonal vaccine modified the immune response to pH1N1), or whether the observed association was not a result of vaccination, *but was instead due to differences in some unidentified factor(s) among the groups being studied.*
> 
> It is much easier though for anti vacc people to pick and choose passages that suit pre determined conclusions.


Which concludes the argument that vaccines are perfectly safe - it is ALL about the individual, whether it be man or dog


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## GatorBytes

JPF said:


> *stick you head in the sand* and pick out stories that support your cause.* I could post thousands of PEER REVIEWED articles that support that fact that vaccines are safe* and you would still come up with excuses not to do the right thing. Its frustrating, but I hope that by posting in forums like this that others see that the anti vacc people don't have a leg to stand on. My dog and everyone elses will be healthier that way.


1) That is just rude

2) How about picking out just one!


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## Jax08

Dustin4321 said:


> My pup has had one round of shots from the breeder. Distemper, parvo and adenovirus. I am personally against vaccines for many reasons I won't go into here but I have limited knowledge on puppy vaccines. I believe most of what I've read concerns adult dogs.
> 
> Has anybody only done one round of vaccines with their pup? I honestly am worried about vaccinosis occurring from over vaccination. Though I HATE this fear motive instilled into people about "if you don't vaccinate, she'll get sick and die!" Which I don't believe but is like to hear some experiences and get some preemptive naturals on hand, or even cures.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I did the puppy series and a one year booster on Jax. Her titers at 4 years old came back high enough she should never need another vaccination.

the problem with only giving one shot out of the three is you don't know when the mother's immunity wears off so the vaccine can take over.




Dustin4321 said:


> Okay thanks. Follow up: wouldn't it be better to split them up a week or so apart? Distemper now and one week later parvo, then two more weeks and distemper again, then another week and finish the parvo? Ideally it would introduce the disease to the pup one at a time giving her a better chance to develop an immunity, rather than her immune system identifying both together as one.
> 
> And doesn't a balanced raw diet do really well to fight all the diseases and potential damage from vaccinations?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


While a balanced diet keeps the body strong, it will not fight off all diseases and damage from outside sources. It may help the body fight off diseases but it won't stop it from happening.

I think your best solution is to find a holistic/homeopathic vet and discuss this with them. 

I know of one person who once stated on here they give one shot at a certain age and have never had an issue. However, giving vaccination is not a fear tactic or junk science. Diseases have been eradicated by vaccines. Small pox, polio... the issue, in my uneducated opinion, is not the use of vaccines but the over vaccination of our pets. Are there vaccines out there that cause other issues? Yes. The dead virus rabies vaccine has been shown to cause cancer in cats at the injection site due to the inflammation it causes whereas the MLV vaccine does not.





Dustin4321 said:


> ... she has had slightly itchy skin as well. I'm afraid it was the vaccinosis ...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Titer, if vet thinks you will get a true reading of immunity from the vaccination and not from mothers immunity, and discuss with a holistic/homeopathic vet for immunity level and treatment for vaccinosis.


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## NancyJ

We could all be nice to one another and provide information to help the others understand our viewpoints. ...... That would be so much nicer than the bickering and assuming anyone who has not bought into our "religion" about vaccinations is stupid.

I know before I have said I have an undergraduate degree in biochemistry, a graduate degree in chemistry, and know each vaccination comes with risks both short term and long term along with risks associated with not vaccinating. 

Skepticism is a healthy thing. Dogmatism and closed-mindedness (both sides) is not. I would like to see the peer reviewed articles as well. I was shocked when I saw how weak the clinical data was to support efficacy claims for the lepto vaccine. [direct from Pfizer no less]

Michelle, that was not directed at you. Yours was a helpful post.


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## Anubis_Star

GatorBytes said:


> 1) That is just rude
> 
> 2) How about picking out just one!


I think you're right, there are indeed dangers to vaccines. I know we butt heads about rabies  but really I'm all for doing minimal chemical injections into the body. It's like what I tell people who take medications and then get upset when they have a bad side effect - there are risks and side effects to EVERYTHING! If you think vaccines are completely safe you are very wrong. Adjuvants alone aren't regulated - many contain micro doses of mercury

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## Dustin4321

jocoyn said:


> We could all be nice to one another and provide information to help the others understand our viewpoints. ...... That would be so much nicer than the bickering and assuming anyone who has not bought into our "religion" about vaccinations is stupid.
> 
> I know before I have said I have an undergraduate degree in biochemistry, a graduate degree in chemistry, and know each vaccination comes with risks both short term and long term along with risks associated with not vaccinating.
> 
> Skepticism is a healthy thing. Dogmatism and closed-mindedness (both sides) is not. I would like to see the peer reviewed articles as well. I was shocked when I saw how weak the clinical data was to support efficacy claims for the lepto vaccine. [direct from Pfizer no less]
> 
> Michelle, that was not directed at you. Yours was a helpful post.


Excellent point jocoyn. I started this thread not as much to be an anti vaccine thread and more of just hearing IF anyone actually did skip (yes or no) and to actually LEARN something that I've been having trouble finding. I don't know enough about dog diseases and how they work. Maybe I'm making an assumption when I think that, like a human, a dog on a healthy diet can handle any disease that is thrown at it. And no, I'm not naive or stupid, I know how to battle any disease with a correct diet. A strong immune system in humans can destroy cancer, schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis, and a lot more. So why would it not be the same for dogs?

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## NancyJ

Well, look at it this way...indigenous peoples of the Americas were apparently a pretty healthy lot living a very natural life. Europeans came over with new diseases and, despite probably excellent immune systems honed by "selective breeding through natural selection" they died like flies from chickenpox, smallpox, measles and other European diseases.

I think a good immune system goes a long way but there are a LOT of stressors on that system such as environmental toxins, foods (even if you feed raw, what did that feed animal eat?), etc. ....... 

It depends on what risks you are willing to take. 

I grew up knowing older kids who caught polio before the vaccine came out and went to schoo with heavy metal braces and crutches, but the vaccine came out the year I was born and not one of my classmates or their younger siblings got the disease. I also knew of kids were blinded by measles and personally knew one who was severely mentally handicapped due to the high fever......so.......I personally see a point in vaccines but think we do go overkill with them -- I think our immune systems WERE better back then. I did not know any kids with allergies, except for one who had asthma..but we still came down with all the childhood diseases (mumps, measles, rubella, scarlet fever, fifth, chicken pox) and got sick from them. Most recovered. Not all. I had a great uncle die from the measles, and an uncle from diptheria.

So to the dogs....well I assume a lot of parallels. Distemper and Parvo are certainly out there and they kill puppies. So is rabies. Lepto is also very scary and a lot of emerging tick borne diseases. Don't know where you draw the line.


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## LisaT

1 year boosters are not necessary (core vaccines), it depends on when the last puppy vaccine was and the state of the immune system at that time. 

I chose to titer at a year instead of revax to determine if a booster was necessary (it wasn't, her last vax was at about 4 1/2 months old in the shelter, she probably did not have a puppy series). 

If I had my choice, that would be it, but I suspect I will be titering to remain active in various dog activities.

It's a scary world out there if you think of all that things that they could be exposed to  There's also a lot of bad vaccines out there too, with little transparency, and people in positions of authority giving advice that is not necessarily in the best interest of your pet (thinking of various medical professionals).


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## NancyJ

I did revax on parvo and distemper at one year then titered a few months later. I will titer again in 3 years for comfort purposes and to have the documentation. The non-holistic vet did not feel any concern about the hepatitis [we had boostered at one year post initial series with the parvo and the distmper, but I went back to the traditional one as they got a new vet who was willing to take the time with me to discuss things even if we don't necessarily see eye to eye on everything..

Of course rabies is. I have to have that to go to search and rescue seminars. There are a lot of folks in SAR doing alternative medicines so they don't typically require the others though if you fly or leave the country, well that can be a different matter.


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## Anubis_Star

Dustin4321 said:


> Excellent point jocoyn. I started this thread not as much to be an anti vaccine thread and more of just hearing IF anyone actually did skip (yes or no) and to actually LEARN something that I've been having trouble finding. I don't know enough about dog diseases and how they work. Maybe I'm making an assumption when I think that, like a human, a dog on a healthy diet can handle any disease that is thrown at it. And no, I'm not naive or stupid, I know how to battle any disease with a correct diet. A strong immune system in humans can destroy cancer, schizophrenia, multiple sclerosis, and a lot more. So why would it not be the same for dogs?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, even the strongest immune system can't destroy everything. You get rabies, you're done. Your dog gets a splenic hemangiosarcoma and ever with removal and chemo they most likely only have weeks left.

There is no cure for parvo. A dog's immune system will fight the disease off in about a weeks time. However symptoms are so severe that young puppies simply cant handle the loss of fluids, all become dehydrated, and that is why many die. Doesnt matter how strong their immune system is.

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## Dustin4321

jocoyn said:


> Well, look at it this way...indigenous peoples of the Americas were apparently a pretty healthy lot living a very natural life. Europeans came over with new diseases and, despite probably excellent immune systems honed by "selective breeding through natural selection" they died like flies from chickenpox, smallpox, measles and other European diseases.
> 
> I think a good immune system goes a long way but there are a LOT of stressors on that system such as environmental toxins, foods (even if you feed raw, what did that feed animal eat?), etc. .......
> 
> It depends on what risks you are willing to take.
> 
> I grew up knowing older kids who caught polio before the vaccine came out and went to schoo with heavy metal braces and crutches, but the vaccine came out the year I was born and not one of my classmates or their younger siblings got the disease. I also knew of kids were blinded by measles and personally knew one who was severely mentally handicapped due to the high fever......so.......I personally see a point in vaccines but think we do go overkill with them -- I think our immune systems WERE better back then. I did not know any kids with allergies, except for one who had asthma..but we still came down with all the childhood diseases (mumps, measles, rubella, scarlet fever, fifth, chicken pox) and got sick from them. Most recovered. Not all. I had a great uncle die from the measles, and an uncle from diptheria.
> 
> So to the dogs....well I assume a lot of parallels. Distemper and Parvo are certainly out there and they kill puppies. So is rabies. Lepto is also very scary and a lot of emerging tick borne diseases. Don't know where you draw the line.


Indigenous Americans ate corn meal and farmed other things. Talking about polio and measles only refers to a time when the human diet was adulterated. They weren't eating fresh, raw foods. 

I understand your point and this is why I've been questioning it. I really still think if the natives had been eating only raw meat, like was done by early man, they may not have had such an epidemic. But I'm not trying to get into a raw meat for humans, just drawing a comparison that a "natural" diet has NOT been eaten for a long time, except in rare tribes around the world that strictly maintain tradition of raw and fermented meats. 

Quick side note: the Japanese eat raw meat on a daily basis, seafood to boot, and they are some of the least disease stricken people on the planet in an industrialized culture. THAT'S why its hard for me to "pull the trigger" on the vaccine thing.

However, I am leaning towards doing it for parvo and distemper, and then rabies at 6 mo. I just don't want my girl to be a statistic of a dog that loses their wonderful drive and spunk. I already have a very big distrust against big pharma and western docs and even some ayurvedic and Chinese medicine. What gives me the reason to trust a western vet when he has the same education and bias? The thing about hearing from vet offices is like hearing from a cancer clinic: they never get to add to their statistics of those that didn't come in for treatment and lived because of it. For all they know, my dad is dead from his cancer because he refused their treatment.

However you do make a good point about the kibble fed dogs and who knows what antibiotics theyve been given and what mutated viruses are floating around? That is a different area that I really know nothing about.


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## BowWowMeow

A lot of people use Parvaid successfully to fight parvo. But a lot of people also lose puppies to parvo. I am not a big fan of vaccines because I had a cat who got cancer at the site of a vaccine and my Basu had terrible vaccinosis because he was vaccinated yearly before I adopted him at age 4.5. But I still do two sets of puppy shots and then boosters at a year old. I absolutely would vaccinate for parvo, distemper and for rabies, at least twice. 

Depending on the state you live in, if your dog bites someone and is not vaccinated for rabies s/he will be euthanized for testing. I stopped vaccinating Basu for rabies because he had an allergic reaction to the vaccine but I knew the consequences (he was fear aggressive) and managed him very carefully for the rest of his life. 

Rafi, my current rescue, got an initial set of vaccines and boosters a year later. So far I am vaccinating him every three years for rabies. I will probably stop though since he's 7 already. I stopped vaccinating Chama at 8 years old (she lived to be 14) and stopped vaccinating Cleo (my cat) at 10 years old (she lived to be 19).


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## NancyJ

Dustin4321 said:


> Indigenous Americans ate corn meal and farmed other things. Talking about polio and measles only refers to a time when the human diet was adulterated. They weren't eating fresh, raw foods.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well, the raw fed dog is going to be fed meat which has more likely than not, feasted on GMO laden corn, now alfalfa (approved recently), apparently wheat that escaped from experimental fields *oops* , and even if those animals eat natural foods, the nutrient levels are typically far less than nature intended and they are still not getting the wild diet nature intended and are, themselves, selectively bred for rapid weight gain, not longevity and health.

Move to wild Montana with "Pukka's"* owner and feed wild elk and maybe you are onto something though I imagine intact Pukka may meet an early end being allowed to run freely in the wild  

I think there is evidence of disease being long in the history of humans and animals, pruning the population as it were.

The book..."Pukka's Promise"


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## Momto2GSDs

I am NOT advocating non-vaccination here, just sharing what I have done.
*Our male was born 4/6/08. 
*His mother had been vaccinated and was put on a raw diet while pregnant. *Pup's were fed a raw diet beginning at 3 weeks and no inoculations were given by breeder per our request.
*He had one Parvo on 6/25/08 and then one Distemper 10/8/08. These were the only ones given.
*He was treated with homeopathic's "Thuja and Sulphur" each time after being inoculated.
*We spent the extra $$$ for peace of mind and did titers a few months after the shots and he was sufficiently covered. We repeated titers again a few months after that.
*We have continued doing titers every year and in 2013 he still has sufficient anti-bodies for both. That is a 5 year duration of immunity with one shot of each one.

When the news about the Canine Adenovirus came out, we titered him, just to make sure. His result was 192 and he had *never *had this type of inoculation. Animals with titers below 15 are recommended to have this shot.

There are homeopathic "Nosodes" for Parvo and Distemper (which range in strengths from 15X to 50M), but there have not been any studies done to prove OR disprove the effectiveness, so this should be counseled by a qualified Homeopath only and a personal decision to be willing to take the risk.

I understand what you are saying about diet, but, even though our dogs had very minimal inoculations, were fed a raw diet their whole life, plus supplements, and were healthier than any other dogs that I knew of, they got fleas one time! There's info out there that says they couldn't get fleas if healthy and fed raw! :shocked: So, in my personal opinion and experience, I wouldn't base a raw diet on keeping your dog safe from disease. Our foods these days come from depleted lands and even if they are organic, the farmer in the next field may be spraying harmful insecticides that drift on to the organic fields! And who knows what the butchered animals are eating before they get to our food chain! But again, that's just me!

Hope this helps.
Moms


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## Momto2GSDs

Sorry, forgot to add that I kept him on Juliette Barclay Levey's supplements (NR Seaweed, NR Herbal Compound, NR Tree Bark Gruel, NR Daily Capsules) and Colustrum when we brought him home. Purchased a NaturalRearing.com :: Loading Website...


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## Dustin4321

jocoyn said:


> Well, the raw fed dog is going to be fed meat which has more likely than not, feasted on GMO laden corn, now alfalfa (approved recently), apparently wheat that escaped from experimental fields *oops* , and even if those animals eat natural foods, the nutrient levels are typically far less than nature intended and they are still not getting the wild diet nature intended and are, themselves, selectively bred for rapid weight gain, not longevity and health.
> 
> Move to wild Montana with "Pukka's"* owner and feed wild elk and maybe you are onto something though I imagine intact Pukka may meet an early end being allowed to run freely in the wild
> 
> I think there is evidence of disease being long in the history of humans and animals, pruning the population as it were.
> 
> The book..."Pukka's Promise"


I know what you mean, but all my sources for meat are now pastured and grass fed or at least not fed gmo grains (chicken). Granted, I do know very well what you mean by the differences between wild game and even the best farm raised, which don't stand up nutritionally.

The tough thing about it, early history doesnt talk much about diet. Early stuff like cave paintings show man stuffing down on animals, probably raw, until it got burnt one day and smelled better, rather than tasting better or being more nutritious. It seems to me that observing wild, present day animals to be our best factor in determining what man's diet should be related to. So, going one step further and including disease occurrence, there is very little evidence of wild animals becoming severely diseased aside from man polluting something. They die early in the wild from being eaten by something else or injury or starvation. But, of course, like you already mentioned, we live in a processes society with random disease that mutates from who knows what...

I appreciate your time to share this much well thought info and your open mindedness.

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## Lauri & The Gang

Dustin4321 said:


> Has anybody only done one round of vaccines with their pup?


Mauser, my GSD and Kaynya, my first Chinese Crested both had only ONE puppy shot - one of the combo type. Since I purchased both of them they 'came' with the shot.

Spike, Fuego, Clark and Wasabi have all had ZERO shots (other than Rabies). As in NONE.

When Wasabi was about 3 months old we had the kennel inspector come do our inspection. ** When we moved here we had to get a kennel license because we had 6 dogs - it keeps us legal. Every year they inspect our kennel - aka: the house - and meet the dogs.

Anyway - 9 days later Wasabi and CJ, her litter brother, both started showing signs of Parvo. They both got sick. While Wasabi pulled through in about 4-5 days it took longer for CJ. He got very sick - to the point I was doing sub-Q fluids.

I was giving them Parvaid and Vibactra, along with Colloidal Silver enemas.

Both of them pulled through with no lasting effects.

I did NOT keep them separated from the other dogs and NONE of the other dogs got sick. Not even Spike or Feugo.

When Clark was about 6-7 months old his owner (who breeds and shows Newfies) had a parvo outbreak. Clark was not separated from the sick puppies and yet HE never got sick.

Kaynya is due in mid-July. I plan to get a new batch of Parvaid and Vibactra as well as getting some colloidal silver from my friend (she makes it). I will have these on hand along with a bag of sub-q fluids.

Every year we have *HUNDREDS *of dogs come and go at our house (attending our lure coursing events). Just yesterday we were at the Mounds Dog Fest in WI (running the lure) and there must have been over 200 dogs just in our area to run the lure. When we came home I did not change my shoes or anything.

I WANT my dogs to be exposed to 'things' - it helps their immune system learn how to fight these things.

IMHO, if you feed your dog a species appropriate diet and use NO chemicals in or on their bodies (like heartworm or flea/tick chemicals) then the dog can handle the 'germs' out there in the world. There are exceptions because there's no 100% guarantee on anything.


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## Dustin4321

BowWowMeow said:


> A lot of people use Parvaid successfully to fight parvo. But a lot of people also lose puppies to parvo. I am not a big fan of vaccines because I had a cat who got cancer at the site of a vaccine and my Basu had terrible vaccinosis because he was vaccinated yearly before I adopted him at age 4.5. But I still do two sets of puppy shots and then boosters at a year old. I absolutely would vaccinate for parvo, distemper and for rabies, at least twice.
> 
> Depending on the state you live in, if your dog bites someone and is not vaccinated for rabies s/he will be euthanized for testing. I stopped vaccinating Basu for rabies because he had an allergic reaction to the vaccine but I knew the consequences (he was fear aggressive) and managed him very carefully for the rest of his life.
> 
> Rafi, my current rescue, got an initial set of vaccines and boosters a year later. So far I am vaccinating him every three years for rabies. I will probably stop though since he's 7 already. I stopped vaccinating Chama at 8 years old (she lived to be 14) and stopped vaccinating Cleo (my cat) at 10 years old (she lived to be 19).


Does parvaid work well in conjunction with vaccines as well as remedies commonly used to treat any vaccinosis symptoms? Like thuja?

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## Dustin4321

Momto2GSDs said:


> I am NOT advocating non-vaccination here, just sharing what I have done.
> *Our male was born 4/6/08.
> *His mother had been vaccinated and was put on a raw diet while pregnant. *Pup's were fed a raw diet beginning at 3 weeks and no inoculations were given by breeder per our request.
> *He had one Parvo on 6/25/08 and then one Distemper 10/8/08. These were the only ones given.
> *He was treated with homeopathic's "Thuja and Sulphur" each time after being inoculated.
> *We spent the extra $$$ for peace of mind and did titers a few months after the shots and he was sufficiently covered. We repeated titers again a few months after that.
> *We have continued doing titers every year and in 2013 he still has sufficient anti-bodies for both. That is a 5 year duration of immunity with one shot of each one.
> 
> When the news about the Canine Adenovirus came out, we titered him, just to make sure. His result was 192 and he had *never *had this type of inoculation. Animals with titers below 15 are recommended to have this shot.
> 
> There are homeopathic "Nosodes" for Parvo and Distemper (which range in strengths from 15X to 50M), but there have not been any studies done to prove OR disprove the effectiveness, so this should be counseled by a qualified Homeopath only and a personal decision to be willing to take the risk.
> 
> I understand what you are saying about diet, but, even though our dogs had very minimal inoculations, were fed a raw diet their whole life, plus supplements, and were healthier than any other dogs that I knew of, they got fleas one time! There's info out there that says they couldn't get fleas if healthy and fed raw! :shocked: So, in my personal opinion and experience, I wouldn't base a raw diet on keeping your dog safe from disease. Our foods these days come from depleted lands and even if they are organic, the farmer in the next field may be spraying harmful insecticides that drift on to the organic fields! And who knows what the butchered animals are eating before they get to our food chain! But again, that's just me!
> 
> Hope this helps.
> Moms


Thanks for sharing, that was quite helpful. I'll probably get the vaccinations and keep thuja and sulfur on hand. And I know very little about titers, do vets commonly do that?

Btw, to be certified organic, you HAVE to be in an area with no risk of cross contamination from a non organic farmer. I know this because my dad is a farmer and considered going organic but we CAN'T because our neighbor isn't. Though, the USDA controls organic now too, so basically its almost a way for them to charge more and have people jump more hoops just to get their stamp, that may not actually provide healthier food. Stupid huh?

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## Momto2GSDs

Dustin Quote: "Thanks for sharing, that was quite helpful. I'll probably get the vaccinations and keep thuja and sulfur on hand. And I know very little about titers, do vets commonly do that?"

You are most welcome!

You would give the Thuja immediately after an inoculation and then give the Sulphur at nite. Continue Thuja morning, Sulphur nite for 7 to 10 days. The homeopathic remedy for Rabies is Lyssin.

Some Western Vets will fight you on the titers, Holistic vets will insist on them!


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## Dustin4321

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Mauser, my GSD and Kaynya, my first Chinese Crested both had only ONE puppy shot - one of the combo type. Since I purchased both of them they 'came' with the shot.
> 
> Spike, Fuego, Clark and Wasabi have all had ZERO shots (other than Rabies). As in NONE.
> 
> When Wasabi was about 3 months old we had the kennel inspector come do our inspection. ** When we moved here we had to get a kennel license because we had 6 dogs - it keeps us legal. Every year they inspect our kennel - aka: the house - and meet the dogs.
> 
> Anyway - 9 days later Wasabi and CJ, her litter brother, both started showing signs of Parvo. They both got sick. While Wasabi pulled through in about 4-5 days it took longer for CJ. He got very sick - to the point I was doing sub-Q fluids.
> 
> I was giving them Parvaid and Vibactra, along with Colloidal Silver enemas.
> 
> Both of them pulled through with no lasting effects.
> 
> I did NOT keep them separated from the other dogs and NONE of the other dogs got sick. Not even Spike or Feugo.
> 
> When Clark was about 6-7 months old his owner (who breeds and shows Newfies) had a parvo outbreak. Clark was not separated from the sick puppies and yet HE never got sick.
> 
> Kaynya is due in mid-July. I plan to get a new batch of Parvaid and Vibactra as well as getting some colloidal silver from my friend (she makes it). I will have these on hand along with a bag of sub-q fluids.
> 
> Every year we have *HUNDREDS *of dogs come and go at our house (attending our lure coursing events). Just yesterday we were at the Mounds Dog Fest in WI (running the lure) and there must have been over 200 dogs just in our area to run the lure. When we came home I did not change my shoes or anything.
> 
> I WANT my dogs to be exposed to 'things' - it helps their immune system learn how to fight these things.
> 
> IMHO, if you feed your dog a species appropriate diet and use NO chemicals in or on their bodies (like heartworm or flea/tick chemicals) then the dog can handle the 'germs' out there in the world. There are exceptions because there's no 100% guarantee on anything.


I think that's great, the only thing I fear for myself is to identify these sicknesses early enough to do the right thing. I am not used to sick dogs; my other pups usually only have one or two vaccine series anyways and go all around the state and never get sick. Even when they were fed on kibble. I think living in the country and being exposed to coyote bacteria improves their immune system a lot. 

So what's it like to take the time and money to pull a dog through with parvaid or other things? 

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## BowWowMeow

Here is an interesting little article from a vet who practiced in Ecuador and the U.S.: Vaccinations for Pets- Good or Bad ? | Homeopathic Pet Medicine | Holistic Pet Vet

Parvaid is used (usually with Vibactra Plus, which boosts the immune system) to treat parvo after a puppy has it. It is not a preventative. Fortunately I have not had to use it and I would rather not take the chance of a puppy getting parvo. In adult dogs parvo usually manifests as a cold, if anything, so it's not a big deal. 

I have not seen or heard of an adverse reaction to the parvo vaccine. The most common reactions are to rabies and to the lyme vaccine and the lepto vaccine. 

Lyssin or Thuja are the two remedies recommended for treating adverse reactions to the rabies vaccine. But homeopathic remedies are specific to symptoms so they won't really be effective as a preventative (although they also won't hurt). However, they can be really effective to treat symptoms of disease. 

Pitcairn's book is a good one for homeopathy.


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## Lauri & The Gang

Dustin4321 said:


> So what's it like to take the time and money to pull a dog through with parvaid or other things? http://www.petguide.com/mobile


Time - I gave sub-q fluids to CJ 4-5 times a day during the worst of it. Being that they are such tiny puppies you can't give a ton at once. The colloidal silver enema - 3 times per day. Easy to do even when working full time.

The Parvaid and Vibactra need to be given frequently during the first 24 hours of diagnosis. I took 2 days off from work when they first got sick.

The cost - CS was given to me by my friend that makes it. I gave her $20 for a large jar. The Parvaid and Vibactra run about $70 total. The sub-q fluids, tubing and needles I get from my vet for about $30.


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## marbury

This has been a very interesting thread for me to reed coming from the perspective of a person in the veterinary field.

As for updates at our clinic, we currently have four parvo puppies in isolation.
- One is still here in intensive care from my previous post. Diarrhea has stopped and he is eating, but pet is still on IV and is vomiting.
- One pet was abandoned at our facility without payment. Owner said he had a vaccine but had no proof. He was supposed to be picked up by Animal Control and destroyed but one of our techs got attached. He is not stable and his condition has declined over the past two days. He also has a heavy parasite load. He's currently being treated at the clinic's expense and the owner has gone into collections for over $1k and has been served with a notice of abandonment and animal cruelty for failing to provide adequate medical care for her animal
- Two mastiff pups from a litter of nine, five of which are now showing signs of parvo at home as well. No vaccines. Both puppies in our care are on IV fluids with metro and baytril, Cerenia for vomiting, Petalyte and AD PO. Propectalin for diarrhea. Both are stable with no vomiting and occasional diarrhea.

Parvo lives for up to 7 years in the soil because of our excellent weather conditions and the rain brings it up and washes it into other yards.

I don't much care what people do after their puppy shots. I'm sure most folks who titer at a year would still show active immunity. It's none of my business what y'all 'natural' folks want to do to your animals in either case. I'm not here to tell anyone what they NEED to do. All I'm presenting here is what we see at our clinic every day. Someone is always going to have an issue with whatever you do with your dog, and many have issues with what we do to our humans. At the end of the day it is your gamble. Look how many folks have dealt with parvo just fine here. The best part is the puppies that they pulled through it will have a lifetime of immunity. But in a vet office we see the worst of parvo, the ones that leave our office in black bags in the back of a pickup truck heading for a group cremation and disposal. *And the reason they died is 92*% preventable.* That's really the only point I'm making.

* I'm certain someone will find articles that moves this number up or down. This is the statistic on our Pfizer vaccine slips at the office.


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