# Digestive motility problem?



## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi everybody, first of all I don't own a German Shepherd, I own a Golden Retriever. I signed up for this forum because I noticed that German Shepherds have similar health issues as Goldens. For last two years I have been trying to figure out what is wrong with my 3 year old golden. After each feeding (3 times a day), he seems to be not feeling well. He paces, stands and makes noise with his mouth, swallowing constantly, he belches, gets gassy, and his stomach gets so noisy that I can hear him across a room. He also lost weight and has problem to gain it back. His stool used to start normal and ended soft. After switch to raw food his stool is firm throughout.
Even after switch to raw he still has noisy stomach, belching and has problem to gain weight. I tried different brands of over the counter enzymes and probiotics, but they didn't seem to be helping. His stomach was even noisier and the belching was also worse. The last thing he was put on was Pancreatic enzymes, which seemed to be making him burp up a liquid which then got into his air passages and he had reverse sneezing episodes. He had done x-rays of esophagus and stomach, abdominal ultrasound, fecal exam, stool culture, complete blood count, blood chemistry. Every test was negative. Only thing I remember the vet mentioned after the x-rays that my dog's stomach looked flaccid. There is a suspicion that hi has digestive motility problem or a defect in his stomach. The next suggested test is barium x-ray. I really don't think that the barium is going to be much of a help. Did someone had the same or similar problem with a dog as I am having. Please help.


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## 1sttimeforgsd (Jul 29, 2010)

Katarina, Hello and Welcome. Sorry your Golden is having problems and I hope that you can get them resolved soon.

I cannot offer any advice on your Golden, but there are many others on here that I am sure could give you some answers to your problems. There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on this forum with ideas that could try and help you to get your boy well.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

can you tell me what enzymes and what probiotics you used.

I would be afraid that when food digest does not move along you have putrefaction which can lead to an auto toxic state. 

You need a good probiotic to move from a dysbiotic state and restore beneficial gut flora. Proteins must be fully digested.

There are herbs which have a tonic effect , herbs that help digestion, herbs that soothe , detoxify etc.
Alfalfa is an excellent tonic. Aloe Vera juice, Burdock root, Dill, Sage , Slippery Elm, more and more.. Ginger ! and Coconut oil -- coconut flour -- coconut oil.

My worry would be bloating . 

Friday is the worst day for me because I need to get ready for "market" 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Miss Molly May (Feb 19, 2010)

Hopefully you will find the cause!


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Yes Carmen, you are right about the bloating. I worry about it too. 
I tried these products:
Nzymes Bac-Pak Plus (combo digestive enzymes and probiotics)
Prozyme 
Petdophilus (Jarrow formula for pets)
Only Natural Pet GI support (probiotics and enzymes, also has Alfalfa and Slippery Elm)
Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics
PankrePlus 
Nature's Sunshine Food Enzymes (with HCl)

I tried to give him the Aloe Vera juice too, I tried only once, he was restless and wanted to go out badly, so I let him and he was eating grass like crazy.
I forgot to mention in my post that he eliminates 3x a day. He never vomits.


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

Welcome, I am so sorry about your baby. I have no advice but hang in there we have plenty of people here that will be able to help.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Has he ever been treated for bacterial overgrowth?

Have you ever tried fresh ground flaxseeds? They help quite a bit in regulating the digestive process. 

Zantac is supposed to help with motility problems, but I don't have personal experience with it for that purpose. 

The probiotics can cause more gas in the digestive tract if it's creating it as a by-product, possible if there is bactwrial overgrowth. 

It's also possible that he has a food allergy or sensitivity - lots of problems with poultry it seems lately, although anything is suspect.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

probiotics won't cause gas -- the bacterial overgrowth would be a dysbiosis, the wrong type of bacteria, pathogenic bacteria , not beneficial. You have to restore the gut to beneficial micro flora.

No Zantac -- you don't need less stomach acid , you need more . 

there might be missing zinc or low levels of glutathione in the liver which then results in low acid production which then results in reduced signals that in turn block the pancreas from secreting digestive enzymes.
When glutathione is low then you have slowed to impaired detoxification which then contributes to dysbiosis and systemic yeast infections . When stomach acid is low pathogenic bacteria thrives. Food just is not being digested because of the low bile and digestive enzyme production , feeding more pathogenic bacteria and contributing to poor peristaltic movements or gut motility problems . Small bits of food are left in the intestines and that contributes to SIBO , small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

things can be addressed by nutrition. Taurine is beneficial -- there are now kibble companies such as ORIJEN which are putting taurine into their dog food . Until recently it was thought that only cats needed taurine as canines are able to synthesis it in their liver, cats lacking the enzyme to do so must have it from an outside source. Taurine is also heart friendly and may be part of the answer to the massive problems that boxers face with cardiomyopathy. Two solutions - feed the dog cat food or add taurine to the dogs diet from an outside source. 
Cholines , phosphaditylcholine (spelling please) sourced from something as simple as soybeans (lecithin) egg yolks+ , lentils , oatmeal produce the neurotransmitters which provide gut motility. 
Tyrosine another amino acid helps in gut motility . Found in food sources such as almonds, pumpkin seeds and sesame seeds , all included in my supplements.
Yes vitamin C but please not synthetic , and complex vitamin e (tocotrienols and tocopherols) either natural sourced and "complex" or from whole foods .(sunflower seeds) . 
I told you the brain and stomach are connected .
Ask your vet about MSM, sulfur and the role in the methylation cycle , krebs cycle.
the brain needs oxygen, methyl group of molecules and a sulfur group.

One good easy to follow very thorough book that I use as reference material is called "The Gut Solution" Brenda Watson. 

You have to provide good sources of amino acids, you have to provide micro and trace minerals without which you do not even have enzyme activity possible and most foods are sorely difficient in minerals !! , you have to alter the terrain of the gut and replace the dysbiotic state of pathogenic bacteria with beneficial bacteria . Food must be thoroughly digested , the system needs to be cleansed (betaine - liver) putrefying food bits in the intestines need to be removed, the gut and the mucosal lining need to be repaired . 

You need to supply the mitochondria with co enzyme Q 10 to energize the cells .

okay that's it till Sunday -- 
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Yes, probiotics can cause gas.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

People, you all are so nice, I can't believe it. I have visited a lot of forums and places on the internet, and even though people were nice, they were not as welcoming and encouraging as you are. Thank you.
Carmen, thank you for a lot of info, I have some studying to do.
I have also more info which might be helpful if one wants to look at the problem from the holistic perspective.
The food, I fed him a kibble until a month ago. I went through different brands: starting with Eukanuba and continuing with Healthwise Chicken and Rice, then Precise Chicken and rice then Nature's Logic Lamb and Millet and finally Stella and Chewy's Frozen Lamb Dinner. Shortly after switch to Nature's Logic and putting him on PancrePlus enzymes his red fur from his paws, lower lip, under his eye and from around his genitals started to disappear. He had the red fur for over a year. About a week ago it started to come back. As I learned the red fur is either a sign of Systemic Yeast Infection or a food allergy. He was also treated with Tylosin for 3 weeks, the Tylosin should have taken care of SIBO, if there was one, but no change after the three weeks on it. Also, while he was on kibble he had a horrible gas, it seemed to disappear with the switch to raw food. Shortly after the switch to raw food he got a really watery jello like discharge in his eyes, I guess a sign of detox, it lasted for about 10 days, then it stopped and the dark-brown discharge came back. The Stella and Chewy's patties have a small pieces of bones in it. I see those pieces in his stool about every other day, it is concentrated in one part of the stool - I guess he does not digest it. After two weeks on the PancrePlus he was supposed to start to take Reglan. I gave it to him only once. The first day I gave it to him, his stomach was really firm, he was restless and eating a bunch of grass. I got scared and did not give him the PancrePlus and Reglan again. I forgot to mention that before he was one year old he was diagnosed with hip displasia, I will continue tomorrow ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

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Check this out, I have used their products for other reason and they worked great. Not sure if this is what you need but worth a look. They also have fantastic customer service.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Get the barium test. It's really easy for the dog, they just eat their meal that's coated with the barium, and are then put on the x-ray table wide awake. There may be other things going on like mega esophagus that you can either rule out or deal with.

Did you rule out EPI Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency


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## Mika140 (Jan 8, 2011)

I've been dealing w/ a lot of digestive issues with my 5 yr old GSD lately....they've finally decided that he has Inflammatory bowel disease. I don't know if they've considered that for yours also. Mine sounds a lot like yours when he has a flare up, but not all the time. On kibble, his stool would be the same - start out more solid (on good days), then move to soft. During flare-ups, his stomach makes super loud noises and he has trouble settling down because of the abdominal/stomach discomfort. He's finally gotten stable now, as he's been on metronidazole for the past month 1/2 and I had to put him on canned i/d for a couple weeks, now Honest Kitchen Zeal & a small amount Wellness simple solutions salmon/rice. He also gets NOW acidophilus 3 billion (a human probiotic) and L-Glutamine. But since being on the HK, I've also seen that there is some undigested food in his stool. So IBD may be something to consider.

I've also learned that a lot of dogs with IBD tend to have concurrent other health issues going on (EPI, SIBO, etc.) And even if they test negative for one, they may need some treatment if they are borderline on numbers.

Have you been to an internal medicine specialist? If not, I would make that appointment as soon as possible - our regular vets are great, but when dealing with these really complex GI issues, it's important to get a consult with a specialist who deals with these issues all the time.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

I tried the Nzymes yeast kit, the antioxidant treats and the Bac-Pak Plus, I was afraid to use the Oxy-drops, so I used a coconut oil instead. I used it for about 6 months, but no change. 
Mika, I think the vet considered all those things you mentioned, that doesn't mean that Cody doesn't have it, but I think based on the test results there was not indication that he would have any of those. I think that the confusing thing about Cody is that he does not vomit at all. He was put on Tylosin which should deal with SIBO, but again no change. Maybe the PankrePlus enzymes would have worked, but the acid reflux they were causing was horrible and the reverse sneezing even worse - several times a day.
I didn't think about a specialist, but thank you for reminding me that they are around, I should probably consider it. I was also thinking about taking my dog to a holistic vet.
I did not mention that when he was a puppy he had parasites almost for a year: coccidia, giardia, spirochete, tape worms, strongyloydes. He was treating with medications all the time and I have a feeling that his current problem might have started back then.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> I did not mention that when he was a puppy he had parasites almost for a year: coccidia, giardia, spirochete, tape worms, strongyloydes. He was treating with medications all the time and I have a feeling that his current problem might have started back then.


It may not have been completely cleared?

Tylan didn't help my boy's digestive issues, but doxycycline did.

Any chance of tick disease? Do you have a copy of the last blood panel run?


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Lisa, it is a possibility in my opinion, even though he did have several stool tests done and all were negative. I know, the tests are not reliable. I asked the vet about the possibility of Cody having parasites and he said that it is unlikely because he is on heartworm preventative, which is suppose to kill some adult parasites. Cody is not on heartworm preventative now and in the past he was on and off.
As for the ticks, we have them around here and a couple of times a found few running off Cody, I am not sure if they actually were attached - he is on Forntline.
I do not have a copy of the blood tests.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> Yes, probiotics can cause gas.


I agree that the probiotics can cause gas, especially if they contain FOS and almost all of them do.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Curious, do you understand the FOS connection? My boy does not do well with FOS or inulin in his diet, yet it's very promoted.

Can you call and get copies of the bloodwork? Just say they are for your file together at home and forgot to ask for them before? Sometimes vets look for things that are grossly out of wack, and they miss the more subtle things that can be picked up.

I don't buy that stool tests can pick up all the parasite stuff. I had one vet that thought that certain bugs become immune to the stuff in the HW meds. Additionally, HW meds won't do anything for things like giardia and other parasites. (Giardia is commonly missed in stool samples from what I've seen on the forums.)

I think that sometimes dogs stool's firm up because of the bone content, which sometimes can mask other ongoing problems, if that makes sense.

Although it's not funny at all, had to laugh about your comment above, about the welcoming and information atmosphere on the forum. Unfortunately, coming to a GSD health forum, you have come to the right place to talk about digestive issues


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> Curious, do you understand the FOS connection? My boy does not do well with FOS or inulin in his diet, yet it's very promoted.
> 
> Can you call and get copies of the bloodwork? Just say they are for your file together at home and forgot to ask for them before? Sometimes vets look for things that are grossly out of wack, and they miss the more subtle things that can be picked up.
> 
> ...


If you enter +FOS +gas in google search it will give you bunch of returns. I think the reason why they cause gas is because they ferment quickly. Also, the FOS can feed bad bugs like Klebsiella. This is just one link where I read about it, but there is bunch more I Hate FOS - Pat Sullivan Blog and you are right that there is a lot of people promoting FOS as a good thing. After the research I did on probiotics I am not so sure. I am inclined to believe that they are not that great.

I guess GSD are "blessed" with the GI issues just like Goldens and HD too . But I am glad that I found you guys.

Yes, I am sure I can get the blood work, if I ended up taking Cody to a holistic vet I will need all test results anyway - x-rays, ultrasound, ....... 
Parasites: vet mentioned that the heart worm prev. would not kill giardia and tape worm, I think. So there is a possibility that he still has something.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Severe parasitic infections can cause some blood abnormalities, as well as some tick infections can - you might see low end platelets and red blood cells. Some of the white blood cell counts (for example, absolute eosinophils), may be at the high end. Even if they aren't out of range, if they are close to the edges, that might be enough to point you in the right direction.

There are some dogs that are allergic to pork, and they have to use a good plant based enzyme.

I've had a heck of a time finding a probiotic that works for my boy. The best I found was Philips Colon Health from Costco.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Lisa, do you use the probiotics caps or probiotics + fiber.
Also, can you recommend a plant based digestive enzymes? I tried the Nzymes, but that is combo probiotics and enzymes and it also has the FOS and I believe same story with the Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics. Jarrow were only probiotics, but also had FOS.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

initially when pathogenic bacteria is displaced you may get gas . It is the kill off and elimination . Sometimes you have Herxheimers effect which basically is "it gets worse before it gets better". Then what you do is you stop for a day or two to allow the body to catch up in the detoxification , or you reduce the amount of probiotic so that the replacement and detox is more gradual. 
The gunk and mucus are part of the detox.
tired after a very long day - also more tomorrow.
Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> Lisa, do you use the probiotics caps or probiotics + fiber.
> Also, can you recommend a plant based digestive enzymes? I tried the Nzymes, but that is combo probiotics and enzymes and it also has the FOS and I believe same story with the Animal Essentials Plant Enzymes and Probiotics. Jarrow were only probiotics, but also had FOS.


I've been using straight digestive enzymes. This is what I was using, and it seemed like they agreed with him: Phillips' Colon Health Probiotic Supplement Capsules - 90 Count - BJ's Wholesale Club Then I found out that he is allergic to potatoes and dairy, so I've been trying to find a good non-dairy probiotic that seems to help. I've been using this one: Nutrition Now, PB8 (Pro-Biotic Acidophilus For Life), 120 Capsules - iHerb.com and it might be okay - jury is still out. Extra fiber seems to irritate his anal glands.

Hands down, I think that this is one of the best plant-based enzymes around: Similase - 180 caps - Tyler Encapsulations I've used it for years.

If your dog tolerates it, I can't say enough good things about fresh ground flaxseed. I think because there are good oils with the fiber, it doesn't bother the boy, and both of my dogs have done much better with it in the diet, than without - it is good for regulating digestion. Some dogs however are allergic to it.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I've been using straight digestive enzymes. This is what I was using, and it seemed like they agreed with him: Phillips' Colon Health Probiotic Supplement Capsules - 90 Count - BJ's Wholesale Club Then I found out that he is allergic to potatoes and dairy, so I've been trying to find a good non-dairy probiotic that seems to help. I've been using this one: Nutrition Now, PB8 (Pro-Biotic Acidophilus For Life), 120 Capsules - iHerb.com and it might be okay - jury is still out. Extra fiber seems to irritate his anal glands.
> 
> Hands down, I think that this is one of the best plant-based enzymes around: Similase - 180 caps - Tyler Encapsulations I've used it for years.
> 
> If your dog tolerates it, I can't say enough good things about fresh ground flaxseed. I think because there are good oils with the fiber, it doesn't bother the boy, and both of my dogs have done much better with it in the diet, than without - it is good for regulating digestion. Some dogs however are allergic to it.


Thank you for all the info and links. Two more question, how much of the flaxseed do you add to their food and what food do you feed them?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I only have one dog now 

For the GSD, I use an iced tea spoon and fill it twice with unground seeds, and then grind them in a cheap coffee grinder, and mix it in with dinner. When you first use it, it might, uh, clean him out, so you want to make sure that he's not crated or stuck inside for a prolonged period of time after you initially start. That's only for the first day I would think. If he's never had it before, I might gradually increase the amount. 

I have an issue dog, can't eat chicken, turkey, pork, and many other things. So I feed cooked lamb and a bit of beef and a touch of salmon, all homecooked, with vegetables and some ground greens. Absolutely no grains except for a bit in treats. In a pinch I feed Primal frozen (duck) or Stella & Chewy's frozen (beef), but I can't feed that often.

eta: btw, acupuncture can really help with digestive issues.


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

I had similar issues with my Golden retriever mix except she had thyroid and overweight issues. They decided it was IBD and I switched her to grain free TOTW and she has made some improvement. Though the noisy tummy and gas is still there.
Lisa helped me with reading the lab test results too.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I only have one dog now
> 
> For the GSD, I use an iced tea spoon and fill it twice with unground seeds, and then grind them in a cheap coffee grinder, and mix it in with dinner. When you first use it, it might, uh, clean him out, so you want to make sure that he's not crated or stuck inside for a prolonged period of time after you initially start. That's only for the first day I would think. If he's never had it before, I might gradually increase the amount.
> 
> ...


Lisa, I am sorry that you lost one of your dogs. I hope at least that it was the old age. 
Thank you for all the great info and your patience with me. I might have more questions later.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Thank you Katarina.

I hope that there is something in here that helps; as we know, even things that *should* help, sometimes don't.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

krystyne73 said:


> I had similar issues with my Golden retriever mix except she had thyroid and overweight issues. They decided it was IBD and I switched her to grain free TOTW and she has made some improvement. Though the noisy tummy and gas is still there.
> Lisa helped me with reading the lab test results too.


Hi Krystyne, do you use some supplements in addition to the diet?


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> Thank you Katarina.
> 
> I hope that there is something in here that helps; as we know, even things that *should* help, sometimes don't.


I too hope that something is finally going to help him with the noisy tummy. 
The acupuncture is a good tip too. Thank you.
Also, you mentioned a lot of things your dogs is allergic to. How did you figure out what is he allergic to?
As I mentioned I feed Stella and Chewy's Frozen Lamb, but I am thinking about starting to cook at home. Can you please tell me what else (what kind of veggies and supplements) besides the meat you add to the diet you feed?


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## krystyne73 (Oct 13, 2010)

Just fish oil and MSM for right now, Macy was just recently diagnosed so I don't want to load her up on possible irritants. 
I have Crohns and I know something simple like liquid Vitamin B sent me into horrible pain, so for now, I added the MSM and switched to Taste of the Wild last month. 
Also, remember with vitamin supplements, it can take a month or so to see any major improvements. I am a big believer in supplements though.
Also, I was very impressed how quickly changing to TOTW effected Macy though. She is finally acting like a happy, youthful dog.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> Also, you mentioned a lot of things your dogs is allergic to. How did you figure out what is he allergic to?
> As I mentioned I feed Stella and Chewy's Frozen Lamb, but I am thinking about starting to cook at home. Can you please tell me what else (what kind of veggies and supplements) besides the meat you add to the diet you feed?


I use allergy loosely, meaning allergy and intolerance to, which are slightly different things. But I have used a combination of blood allergy testing for foods (which some vets don't believe in) and also challenge with foods. 

My main veggies used to be green beans, but he apparently is allergic to those (legume family, he has a peanut allergy of all things). They make him lick his anal area a lot. I would still recommend those as a base veggie for dogs that tolerate them. Peas can be very starchy and more prone to intolerance, and carrots are kinda high in sugar. My boy is sensitive to most things that grow, so I try some Normandy mix (cauliflower and broccoli mostly, I pick out the carrots, which he is also allergic too). But I don't like feeding a lot of those, being sulfur based, which seems to irritate his bladder (like msm, garlic, eggs, etc. do). I've been blending some greens to pulp lately, experimenting with that (box of organic spring greens from Costco).

The meat I bake on a broiling pan so it doesn't sit in the drippings, and cut with an electric knife. If I bake a lot, I will freeze half.

Supplements are trickier, because they are really really individual. At some point I did balance his calcium, and I add a bit of magnesium, zinc, b-vitamins, off the top of my head. I do give a multivitamin. The rest of his supplements are for medical conditions, I think.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Thank you to all of you for the info. I have some work to do and I will keep posting how the things progress.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Good luck! :fingerscrossed:


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## Pattycakes (Sep 8, 2010)

We have horses as well as a GSD. 

We have one senior horse (23 yrs old). She has had some issues with breathing funny and with some arthritis. I started her on a supplement called Karbo Combo which did wonders for her. She acts like she is 10 yrs old again. Wonderful stuff.

They have a product called Karbo Essentials that you might want to take a look at. I've heard wonderful things about the product for dogs.

Here is the website if you are interested. 

www.thextrascoop.com


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## kimdwagner (Jun 13, 2011)

I have a german shorthaired pointer and found your site by googling stomach motility issues in dogs. we have had problems with stomach motility since this April and so far, all tests have turned out negative. We are waiting on stomach biopsy results. We concluded it isn't thyroid, addison's, IBS, pancreatitis, his blood work is fine and an ultrasound found nothing abnormal. They have him on 2 meds for the motility in addition to Pepcid. He has not had much vomiting and no diarrhea. My first thought was food allergy? By reading the posts, this isn't as uncommon as I thought it was. Any thoughts on what we can try food wise? The internal med vets really offered little by way of what to feed him. Thanks, Kim


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi Kim, I am sorry to hear about your dog. I started this thread so I know how frustrating it can be. I have been feeding my dog raw food (Stella and Chewy's) for about 4 months now and I saw some improvements, but the problem did not go away completely. If you read the whole thread you can see that almost everybody if not everybody was suggesting more natural food - home made or raw - rather than kibble, which is more difficult to digest. My dog has been also on Karbo Essentials Supplement (suggested by one of the Germans Shepherds forum members). He has been on it for about 4 weeks now, it can supposedly take up to 6 weeks to see some results. I definitely noticed some detox (mucus in stool, more scratching and biting his rear legs and so on), so the jury is still out. If I ever get to the bottom of my dogs problem I will definitely post it here. Please let me know when you get the stomach biopsy results back, I would like to know if they found something. If you have questions I will be more than happy to answer them. Please let me know. Also, please let me know what medications is your dog taking and if they are helping. Katarina


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Kim, I forgot to mention that my dog finally gained weight. Don't know if it is your dog's problem too. After being on raw food and the probiotics/enzymes supplements he is finally back to his original weight. The problems which remain is burping (not as much as it used to be), noisy stomach (not as much as it used to be), discharge from one eye and ear which I believe is connected with his stomach issues, also, he doesn't seem to be digesting small pieces of bone in the raw food. It has been suggested to me from several different sources that the stomach issue might be triggered by a psychological problem such as anxiety.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

kimdwagner said:


> I have a german shorthaired pointer and found your site by googling stomach motility issues in dogs. we have had problems with stomach motility since this April and so far, all tests have turned out negative. We are waiting on stomach biopsy results. We concluded it isn't thyroid, addison's, IBS, pancreatitis, his blood work is fine and an ultrasound found nothing abnormal. They have him on 2 meds for the motility in addition to Pepcid. He has not had much vomiting and no diarrhea. My first thought was food allergy? By reading the posts, this isn't as uncommon as I thought it was. Any thoughts on what we can try food wise? The internal med vets really offered little by way of what to feed him. Thanks, Kim


I would switch the pepcid to zantac if you're going to use an acid reducer anyway. I'm told that zantac has some action against motility issues that the other H2 blockers don't have.

As written above, I'm a big believer in fresh ground flaxseed, though not a cure-all. Important to get the food right too. A good start is running an allergy panel through someplace like VARL or Spectrum Labs, and then do an allergy trial only with the foods okay on that list. There will be some "okay" foods that probably aren't, due to other types of sensitivities.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

kimdwagner said:


> I have a german shorthaired pointer and found your site by googling stomach motility issues in dogs. we have had problems with stomach motility since this April and so far, all tests have turned out negative. We are waiting on stomach biopsy results. We concluded it isn't thyroid, addison's, IBS, pancreatitis, his blood work is fine and an ultrasound found nothing abnormal. They have him on 2 meds for the motility in addition to Pepcid. He has not had much vomiting and no diarrhea. My first thought was food allergy? By reading the posts, this isn't as uncommon as I thought it was. Any thoughts on what we can try food wise? The internal med vets really offered little by way of what to feed him. Thanks, Kim


Hi Kim, just wondering what were the biopsy results. Please let us know.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi everybody, I thought I will give you an update. I had barium x-rays done on Cody. The test revealed that his stomach is not emptying properly and his intestines are not working properly either. The vet mentioned a specific part of the intestines, I think he said duodendum. In order to pinpoint what is wrong with Cody they would need to do either a biopsy of stomach and intestines or endoscopy. I have a lot of thinking and decision making to do. I am crushed .


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

This may sound far-fetched, but acupuncture has been documented to help gastric and intestinal motility challenges. Is this something that you would consider investigating?


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

WVGSD said:


> This may sound far-fetched, but acupuncture has been documented to help gastric and intestinal motility challenges. Is this something that you would consider investigating?


Thank you for the suggestion, it is not out of question and am actually thinking about giving it a try. I have read about it in several different places that it might help with digestive issues.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Katarina said:


> Hi everybody, I thought I will give you an update. I had barium x-rays done on Cody. The test revealed that his stomach is not emptying properly and his intestines are not working properly either. The vet mentioned a specific part of the intestines, I think he said duodendum. In order to pinpoint what is wrong with Cody they would need to do either a biopsy of stomach and intestines or endoscopy. I have a lot of thinking and decision making to do. I am crushed .


I meant to say in the quoted post above that they want to do a biopsy by way of exploratory surgery or by endoscopy.

Yesterday came back Cody's thyroid results. They came back normal and supposedly for a Golden retriever the results are actually excellent. 
I did not make a decision regarding the biopsy yet, I wanted to know the thyroid results first. 
I have a lot of thinking to do over the weekend. I fed him this morning ground beef chuck and mashed broccoli and cauliflower, I want to see if food without the bone will make a difference.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Do you have a good holistic vet in your area?


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Do you have a good holistic vet in your area?


Hi Ruth, we do have holistic vets around but I don't know if good ones. I was looking for on-line reviews and asked around, but no one really has any experience with holistic vets around here and I was not able to find enough reviews on-line either.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Where are you? Do the practices have websites?


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Where are you? Do the practices have websites?


I am in coastal Southern California, San Diego area. The practices have websites:
Healing Hope Holistic Consultation Care
Home / Cardiff Animal Hospital, Inc.
Acacia Animal Health Center for dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, rodents, exotics, in Escondido California
Animal Healing Center - Dr. Keith Weingardt, DVM, CVA
South San Diego Veterinary Hospital
Kensington Veterinary Hospital - Home Page
Animal acupuncture rehabilitation alternative veterinarian
This one is not a natural practitioner/healer: 
the ART of DOG - Margarat Nee


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Animal Healing Center looks good. You have a lot of options in your area. I think it would be worth calling around to see if any of the holistic vets have had a similar case. 

I think acupuncture, herbs and homeopathy are all worth a try before exploratory surgery. I would also consider working with a really good nutritionist like Monica Segal. Here is a thread from a board member (I think she's on here too) who is currently working with Monica Segal: Oscar's Monica Segal Journey - GermanShepherdHome.net


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Animal Healing Center looks good. You have a lot of options in your area. I think it would be worth calling around to see if any of the holistic vets have had a similar case.
> 
> I think acupuncture, herbs and homeopathy are all worth a try before exploratory surgery. I would also consider working with a really good nutritionist like Monica Segal. Here is a thread from a board member (I think she's on here too) who is currently working with Monica Segal: Oscar's Monica Segal Journey - GermanShepherdHome.net


Thank you for your input and for the link. As I mentioned I have 0 experience with holistic vets, but I am sure it is worth a try before doing any surgeries.
Someone mentioned to me Monica Segal already, and I looked around on her website, current waiting time is 3 weeks which is not too bad.


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## sadie2010 (Nov 24, 2010)

This thread is a great example of why I love this forum. So many solution suggestions and caring support from members. What a fantastic website.
Good luck Katarina and Kim. Hope you find the answer.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

I am almost entirely holistic with my animals (and myself). I work with a vet but do a lot of my own research and make a lot of my own choices about their care, especially when it comes to my cat. I don't recommend going it alone though, especially if you've got good resources in your area (which you do!) and haven't had experience with holistic care. 

My cat, Cleo, is 19 years old and has a lot of health problems and I have had to be very creative in her care. Her major issues (asides from CRF) is motility issues. She got so sick 1.5 years ago with pancreatitis that she almost died. 

Hairballs were jamming up her bile duct and her system wasn't emptying up and was instead backing up. The vets wanted me to give her steroids but I refused and instead starting experimenting with food and supplements. It took me a good 6 months (and she had a terrible episode with IBD during that time) but I finally got things figured out and I am happy to say that she poops 2-3 times a day now and feels so much better. 

She gets this turbo powered probiotic: Colon Comfort Formula 20 oz [CCF20] - $39.95 : Ojibwa Tea of Life™, Online Store

I realize that your dog may have a structural problem or possibly some sort of obstruction but something like that may at least help get things moving a little better. 

Anyway, I would strongly consider working with Monica Segal and one of the holistic vets in your area. If no one has had experience working with this particular problem then I would choose the vet with the most experience (and the most experience in multiple modalities).


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

sadie2010 said:


> This thread is a great example of why I love this forum. So many solution suggestions and caring support from members. What a fantastic website.
> Good luck Katarina and Kim. Hope you find the answer.


Thank you. I hope so too.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> I am almost entirely holistic with my animals (and myself). I work with a vet but do a lot of my own research and make a lot of my own choices about their care, especially when it comes to my cat. I don't recommend going it alone though, especially if you've got good resources in your area (which you do!) and haven't had experience with holistic care.
> 
> My cat, Cleo, is 19 years old and has a lot of health problems and I have had to be very creative in her care. Her major issues (asides from CRF) is motility issues. She got so sick 1.5 years ago with pancreatitis that she almost died.
> 
> ...


That is great that you were able to figure out what works for your cat the best. I am glad that she is doing good. 
This all is a learning experience for me too. I never imagined that I will have to learn so much about dogs' GI issues.

An obstruction crossed my mind too, but the thing with Cody is that he does not throw up at all and besides the barium he had done normal x-rays and ultrasound too and nothing showed up. I know that the exams are not 100% accurate, but what is the probability.
I will definitely try the diet change and supplements first and see if that makes a difference.
Thank you for all the good advice. I will keep you posted how the things progress.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

A little bit off the topic. I noticed one thing, that almost all of the holistic vets in our area don't have very customer friendly business hours for working people. I wonder why is that.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Huh--that's very odd. The three I know here have evening and weekend hours.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> Huh--that's very odd. The three I know here have evening and weekend hours.


That is the way to go. I don't know how often can working people afford to take a half a day off to go to a vet. The people need to make money so they can afford them. I am glad I noticed the hours because I definitely need to take it in consideration.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

I just stumbled upon this thread and wanted to let you know that Animal Healing Center is wonderful. We've been taking Jones there for his IBD and neurological issues, and have nothing but wonderful things to say about them. The whole atmosphere is wonderful, and everyone who works there is so friendly and helpful.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Oh, and one more thing - we take out exotics to Acacia, and actually see one of the doctors there that does acupuncture/chiro. He has filled in at Animal Healing Center in the past. His name is Dr. Basone, and he's AWESOME, but they're a very expensive hospital. I've never done acu there, so I don't know what those prices are, but they're exotics prices are very high. Despite that though, we continue to go to them because we've had very good experiences there and we love Dr. Basone.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> A little bit off the topic. I noticed one thing, that almost all of the holistic vets in our area don't have very customer friendly business hours for working people. I wonder why is that.


I think that sometimes, the holistic vets travel from clinic to clinic. That's usually not the case when they have their own clinic, but I've seen it once.

The two holistic vets that I use have terrible office for folks that work regular hours. I am fortunate that I am somewhat flexible in my time, and am able to take my dogs to acu and chiro and holistic appts. If that were not the case, around here I would have problems with the hours too. 

However, sometimes, when you contact them, they do make accomodations.

For any digestion issue, I would definitely have acupuncture done. I'm also a huge believer in chiropractic, since the health of the nervous system is also, IMO, very important for the healthy functioning of the organs.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

PuffinGirl said:


> Oh, and one more thing - we take out exotics to Acacia, and actually see one of the doctors there that does acupuncture/chiro. He has filled in at Animal Healing Center in the past. His name is Dr. Basone, and he's AWESOME, but they're a very expensive hospital. I've never done acu there, so I don't know what those prices are, but they're exotics prices are very high. Despite that though, we continue to go to them because we've had very good experiences there and we love Dr. Basone.


I have read your thread about Jones few days ago and I did not realize that you are in San Diego are. I still need to finish reading it, there is a lot of good info. Thank you for posting it.
Thank you for the recommendations for the holistic vets. I have heard about Dr. Bausone that he is good. Supposedly he gives the best needles around here. He is also closer to me than Animal Healing center, I am in Norht County and the Acacia hospital has also better hours, so it definitely is a candidate.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I think that sometimes, the holistic vets travel from clinic to clinic. That's usually not the case when they have their own clinic, but I've seen it once.
> 
> The two holistic vets that I use have terrible office for folks that work regular hours. I am fortunate that I am somewhat flexible in my time, and am able to take my dogs to acu and chiro and holistic appts. If that were not the case, around here I would have problems with the hours too.
> 
> ...


I hear good stuff about acupuncture, so it is high on my list. I hope to make a decision this weekend what is going to happen next.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Katarina said:


> I have read your thread about Jones few days ago and I did not realize that you are in San Diego are. I still need to finish reading it, there is a lot of good info. Thank you for posting it.
> Thank you for the recommendations for the holistic vets. I have heard about Dr. Bausone that he is good. Supposedly he gives the best needles around here. He is also closer to me than Animal Healing center, I am in Norht County and the Acacia hospital has also better hours, so it definitely is a candidate.


We're actually in North County as well - Poway. =) Acacia is much closer, but AHC had so many raves, that we decided to try there, and we've been very happy. I'm sure Acacia would be great as well, though.

I'm glad you found my thread and Jones (there should be several, as he's one broken dog) and that it has given you good info. It has been a LONG road with him, but I'm happy to say that he's doing great, and has been stable for quite a while. I think the main thing for him was having a diet custom made for him from ingredients he had done well on in the past.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

PuffinGirl said:


> We're actually in North County as well - Poway. =) Acacia is much closer, but AHC had so many raves, that we decided to try there, and we've been very happy. I'm sure Acacia would be great as well, though.
> 
> I'm glad you found my thread and Jones (there should be several, as he's one broken dog) and that it has given you good info. It has been a LONG road with him, but I'm happy to say that he's doing great, and has been stable for quite a while. I think the main thing for him was having a diet custom made for him from ingredients he had done well on in the past.


I am glad that you were able to get Jone's issue under control. What a relief that must have been for you 

Please can you give me an idea how often did you have to go with Jones to see the holistic vet at Animal healing center.


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## GCK9 (Mar 29, 2011)

have your dog checked for tick disease and ask for a test for babesia. Make sure you do the snap test for the 4 most common. I think you may find your answer


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Katarina said:


> I am glad that you were able to get Jone's issue under control. What a relief that must have been for you
> 
> Please can you give me an idea how often did you have to go with Jones to see the holistic vet at Animal healing center.


It was definitely a relief! 

When we first started taking him, we went every week. Then after a couple months, it switched to every other week. We now take him about once a month.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

PuffinGirl said:


> It was definitely a relief!
> 
> When we first started taking him, we went every week. Then after a couple months, it switched to every other week. We now take him about once a month.


Thank you for the info!


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

GCK9 said:


> have your dog checked for tick disease and ask for a test for babesia. Make sure you do the snap test for the 4 most common. I think you may find your answer


Lisa T. was also suggesting the tick disease. Can you please tell me which of Cody's symptoms would be suggestive that he might have a tick disease? I don't know about the tick disease at all, if you have a good link where it is all explained please send it to me.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

Katarina said:


> Thank you for the info!


You're welcome! Just let me know if you have any other questions. =)


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> Lisa T. was also suggesting the tick disease. Can you please tell me which of Cody's symptoms would be suggestive that he might have a tick disease? I don't know about the tick disease at all, if you have a good link where it is all explained please send it to me.


I am very interested to hear what GCK9 was thinking too!

From my viewpoint, we see a lot of dogs with tick disease that just exhibit digestive issues. 

http://www.practicalgastro.com/pdf/April06/SherrArticle.pdf


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I am very interested to hear what GCK9 was thinking too!
> 
> From my viewpoint, we see a lot of dogs with tick disease that just exhibit digestive issues.
> 
> http://www.practicalgastro.com/pdf/April06/SherrArticle.pdf


Thank you Lisa. Cody had done "Heartworm, Erlich, Lyme, Anaplasma Test". Is there any other more specific test for tick disease?
Thank you for the good link.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

There is no panel or testing that is 100%, unfortunately. It's probably true that we don't have tests for some of the diseases out there.

On the tick list, this is the lab that we recommend: ProtaTek International, Inc. , many of us have the vet draw the blood and send it out. Being in SoCal, the shipping wouldn't be terrible for you to do that.

Most of the other labs (Antech, Idexx, etc.) have their own testing, but then you get into the discussion about which tests are more effective, PCR, IFA, ELISA, blah, blah, blah!! The PCR has the highest rate of false negatives.

The standard things that are run on this form: http://www.protatek.com/PDF/Requisition_Form.pdf are #47 with #3 and #4 added on. You can call Dr. Holland at the lab there, or email her, and ask what she thinks, and what should be tested for. She is very helpful.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

LisaT said:


> I am very interested to hear what GCK9 was thinking too!
> 
> From my viewpoint, we see a lot of dogs with tick disease that just exhibit digestive issues.
> 
> http://www.practicalgastro.com/pdf/April06/SherrArticle.pdf


A read the link and now I finally understand why you brought up the tick disease. It makes sense to me.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

I have a new update. Yesterday I added carrots to Cody's food and they came out undigested this morning. Also, I noticed that last two days in the mornings Cody's stomach was making noises and he threw up yellow foam, this happened before he ate his breakfast.


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## PuffinGirl (Feb 20, 2009)

My dogs don't digest raw carrots very well either, so I don't think that's too unusual. I just wouldn't give him very many of them. Also, the vomiting is likely from having an empty stomach. With Jones, I keep a bag of cookies by the bed and give him one or two throughout the night, and that has stopped him from doing that.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

PuffinGirl said:


> My dogs don't digest raw carrots very well either, so I don't think that's too unusual. I just wouldn't give him very many of them. Also, the vomiting is likely from having an empty stomach. With Jones, I keep a bag of cookies by the bed and give him one or two throughout the night, and that has stopped him from doing that.


You know, you might be right that he is hungry. I started to feed him 4% of his body weight and it looked like a huge amount of food and in addition he gained some weight, so I cut down on the food amount, but maybe I cut down too much. I will put him on scale again over the weekend and see where his weight is. The carrots are cooked, but still maybe they just don't work for him, so I won't feed them.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

People don't digest whole carrots well either. It's ok to feed them but you should puree them and feed them so that he gets the benefit of the vitamins. 

I find that giving a small snack at night helps stop the vomiting of bile in the morning. In fact, feeding your dog 3 times a day might be better than twice? Since the intestines will be less likely to overload that way? Just an idea...Rafi actually gets 3 meals a day (he's 5) because his digestion is better that way.


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

I grate a sweet potato for my dogs in order to give them some bulk and the vitamins that come from them. They do better with grated sweet potato than they do with raw carrots. Some of them like the raw carrots as a treat, but in their meals I now use the grated sweet potato as they seem to do better with this.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Sweet potato is a good one to use because it's also healing to the gut.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

BowWowMeow said:


> People don't digest whole carrots well either. It's ok to feed them but you should puree them and feed them so that he gets the benefit of the vitamins.
> 
> I find that giving a small snack at night helps stop the vomiting of bile in the morning. In fact, feeding your dog 3 times a day might be better than twice? Since the intestines will be less likely to overload that way? Just an idea...Rafi actually gets 3 meals a day (he's 5) because his digestion is better that way.


I boiled the carrots, but I think I did not puree then enough . I will do a better job next time. PuffinGirl mentioned to give a small snack at night too, I will try that. 
I feed him 3x a day and his last meal is around 8:00 PM.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

WVGSD said:


> I grate a sweet potato for my dogs in order to give them some bulk and the vitamins that come from them. They do better with grated sweet potato than they do with raw carrots. Some of them like the raw carrots as a treat, but in their meals I now use the grated sweet potato as they seem to do better with this.


Maybe a stupid question, but do you feed the sweet potato raw or cooked?


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Don't know about other people but I always feed it cooked and pureed or mashed, with the skin.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

I would go super simple. I know of two GSDs that are allergic to carrots, so it's really tough to know what is good and what isn't. 

My boy is having a lot of motility problems right now. It's pretty standard for him, but it's worse now, and I can feel the inflammation in his gut. 

I revised his digestive enzymes and probiotics. I am also grinding his food, which I think is making a huge difference too. Instead of fresh ground flax once a day, I've added it to both meals. If you go with a different fiber, be careful of adding fiber without have sufficient fat to move the food through the digestive tract. 

My boy is completely starch intolerant, and most grains too (except for flax, thank goodness). Lots of trial and error!


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Cody did not throw up since the last week, I am pleased with that. I removed the carrots from his food and I keep feeding him broccoli, cauliflower, yellow squash and zucchini. He seems to be o.k. with those. He is also on Probiotics Max and Phytoflex for his hips. I should be able to add some calcium and multivitamin by the end of this week. His poops look good too.
I gave him a bully stick to chew on over the weekend. He always swallows the last of it. This time he swallowed about 2" piece, I saw it when it came out.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Grinding the food definitely seems to be working for Cody.

What did cause the worsening with your boy? I hope he will get back on track soon. 




LisaT said:


> I would go super simple. I know of two GSDs that are allergic to carrots, so it's really tough to know what is good and what isn't.
> 
> My boy is having a lot of motility problems right now. It's pretty standard for him, but it's worse now, and I can feel the inflammation in his gut.
> 
> ...


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Is there any harm in feeding a dog with IBD 4x a day? Also, he is on Prednisone and Metronidazol right now and home made food: sweet potato and turkey. He is loosing weight and even thought it looks like I feed him a lot by volume there is still not enough calories in it. I am going to increase the food amount. Any advice will be appreciated.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

IBD -- what is your dogs tail doing?


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

His tail is wagging. He acts like a healthiest dog in the world. He is happy, playful, has a lot of energy, great appetite......


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

just checking to see if there is Cauda Equina Syndrome in early stages . A dead tail is often the first clue. 

You said , correct me if I am wrong because I don't have the time to go back to page one and review from there, that the dog's stomach rumbles - so does he swallow a lot of air - there is aerophagic bloat , associated with a deep chested anatomy , but one that is not broad , so deep to the elbows but not wide across. Other factors like physical condition, nerves and excitability contribute.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Yes, his stomach used to rumble a lot, but since he has been on Prednisone, the stomach noises almost disappeared.
Also, I don't think I mentioned it in this thread that barium x-rays showed thickened ileum (the part of intestines just before the colon). It is believed that that is the part where the inflammation is. Also, his stool exam showed a lot of inflammatory cells.




carmspack said:


> just checking to see if there is Cauda Equina Syndrome in early stages . A dead tail is often the first clue.
> 
> You said , correct me if I am wrong because I don't have the time to go back to page one and review from there, that the dog's stomach rumbles - so does he swallow a lot of air - there is aerophagic bloat , associated with a deep chested anatomy , but one that is not broad , so deep to the elbows but not wide across. Other factors like physical condition, nerves and excitability contribute.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

so did you investigate whether you should be adding soluble fibre (not fibre which leaves a residue such as sweet potato etc) -- . I am talking about soaked oat meal - slippery elm ?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Losing weight as in kiBble weight being lost, or losing weight as in way too ribby?


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## WVGSD (Nov 28, 2006)

Katarina:

I am sorry that I did not see your question earlier - I feed raw sweet potatoes or carrots that I have grated. Skins and all for fiber and nutrients. 

From my experience, my dogs have firmer stool with carrots than they do with the sweet potatoes. I now make a home-prepared supplement/replacement for canned food that consists of cooked meats and barley with green beans (thawed frozen) and raw carrots. The dogs are doing well on this (including my IBD boy) and all of my seven others. Their stools are finally firm and are no longer drippy. 

My IBD dog (GSD) gets Tylan powder daily and salmon-based kibble. He appears to have no food intolerances at this time and seems to be able to handle most protiens and carbohydrates. This could certainly change, but for now, he is stable and doing well.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Too ribby, skin and bone.




LisaT said:


> Losing weight as in kiBble weight being lost, or losing weight as in way too ribby?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Okay, ribby is not good!

I finally was able to put weight on Max, but I don't know what did it. I changed his abx mix. He's on 2.5 mg of pred every other day. His food is ground. I switched to Nutramin for a chunk of his calcium and mineral needs, and then had a nutritionist balance out the things like potassium, etc. He's put on about 9 pounds since doing all of this, after being underweight for many years. 

I hope you find the right mix of things too!


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Lisa, what is abx mix? What nutritionist are you working with?
Are you feeding kibble or home made?
I am happy for you and your dog that you were able to put weight on him . 



LisaT said:


> Okay, ribby is not good!
> 
> I finally was able to put weight on Max, but I don't know what did it. I changed his abx mix. He's on 2.5 mg of pred every other day. His food is ground. I switched to Nutramin for a chunk of his calcium and mineral needs, and then had a nutritionist balance out the things like potassium, etc. He's put on about 9 pounds since doing all of this, after being underweight for many years.
> 
> I hope you find the right mix of things too!


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

I was seriously thinking yesterday, that I am very close to giving up. It seems like everything works for a short while and then it stops. I was thinking, so we are roasting turkey breasts and boiling sweet potatoes for my dog, food fit for a Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas dinner and it is not good enough. Is this ridiculous or what? I think I reached the point of incredible frustration.
This morning I see my doggie fetching a ball and playing with me, he is acting like a healthiest dog in the world. So I said to myself: "He is obviously not giving up, so there is no way that you possibly could throw in towel and give up on him. You are all he has." Long story short, no I won't give up. I hope all of you who go through a similar ordeal with your dogs understand my frustration and I thank you for that.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

the cooking destroys the digestive enzymes and probiotics that he needs to digest and absorb. Heat adulterated fat is very difficult to digest.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Maybe. But in some cases the raw food can cause more harm than good and in his case the cooked food is probably safer. I fed him raw before and I don't see any difference in feeding him cooked or raw food.




carmspack said:


> the cooking destroys the digestive enzymes and probiotics that he needs to digest and absorb. Heat adulterated fat is very difficult to digest.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

How many calories a day should 60 lbs. dog consume?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> Lisa, what is abx mix?


Oh, sorry! "antibiotic mix"....my boy has these serious infections of unknown origin. A couple of vets think he is also allergic to the actual bacteria and the toxins that they emit, making things a bit more complicated for him.

So, he is on 3 or 4 different antibiotics, and the pred, and A LOT of other supportive care. I hear you when you get frustrated :hugs:



> What nutritionist are you working with?
> Are you feeding kibble or home made?...


This is the nutritionist that I used: Better Dog Care, Better Dog Nutrition - Creating Healthy Lifestyles for Canines: Main Page , these are her forums: Our Dogs Online • Index page My boy's diet was a bit deficient in both copper and potassium, both kinda important 

I feed homecooked....Max here has been on homecooked since 2004, though for awhile I did feed a morning breakfast of foods like Primal or Nature's Variety or Stella & Chewy's, but he's sensitive to so many things, I've been sticking with homecooked for quite some time now.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Thank you for the links and the info. It sounds almost like a miracle to be able to find a right combination of medications and food. You are a very patient person and your dogs are very lucky to have you. They better appreciate all you do for them.
I did not decide yet, if I will contact Monica S. or your nutritionist. They both have good reviews. The vet doesn't want me to add any supplements to Cody's diet quite yet. I can't wait to start to work with a nutritionist.




LisaT said:


> Oh, sorry! "antibiotic mix"....my boy has these serious infections of unknown origin. A couple of vets think he is also allergic to the actual bacteria and the toxins that they emit, making things a bit more complicated for him.
> 
> So, he is on 3 or 4 different antibiotics, and the pred, and A LOT of other supportive care. I hear you when you get frustrated :hugs:
> 
> ...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Shoot, can't think of the other IBD dog that had such a terrible time either - she is managing with acupuncture and stuff now. If I think of it, I'll post. If you go back and read, you will see what a tough time she had too.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

LisaT said:


> Shoot, can't think of the other IBD dog that had such a terrible time either - she is managing with acupuncture and stuff now. If I think of it, I'll post. If you go back and read, you will see what a tough time she had too.


PuffinGirl! She posted in this thread even 

Go back and read her posts on the forum, from day 1, and that will give you an idea of the process that she went through.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

First thing I would do is remove ALL carbs from the dogs diet. No grains, no rice, no potatoes.

So he's currently 60 lbs and he's under weight? In that case I would feed the following:
12 ounces of Muscle Meat
14 ounces of Raw Meaty Bones
.5 ounces of Organ Meat (you can go up to 1 ounce if you use something OTHER than liver to start)
​I would stop ALL the supplements for the first two weeks just to see if diet alone can help any. After that, if things don't improve I would add an ANIMAL-based digestive enzyme - not plant based.

I would also start with a SINGLE protein source for those first two weeks. That way there's only ONE thing going in the dog and you can determine if that ONE thing is causing problems or not.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

I know that thread. I read it few months ago.



LisaT said:


> PuffinGirl! She posted in this thread even
> 
> Go back and read her posts on the forum, from day 1, and that will give you an idea of the process that she went through.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Plant vs Animal Digestive Enzymes

digestive enzymes are inherent in the foods thaty they are meant to digest -- protease digests proteins -- it is inherent to meat - flesh and as long as the "thing" is living the protease is inhibited from lysis (hydrolysis) by inhibitor mechanisms, pH change being one - so upon death , the pH changes and decay or autolysis begins.

lipase digests fat lipids.

amylase digests starches - so in kibbled food that would be your fillers and binders - rice , potato 

cellulase digests fibrous material in vegetable , grasses , greens 

then there are pectinase, phytase , lactase, bromelain, peptidase , trypsin, and more .. 

each one performs in a specific pH range and for specific 
quote
The Difference Between Plant and Animal Source Enzymes
Animal source enzymes are derived from bovine (cow) or porcine (pork) pancreatin and function in a limited alkaline pH range, as found in the small intestine, but not in the stomach with its lower (acidic) pH. Plant source enzymes are able to operate efficiently in a range as wide as 2-11 pH, which allows them activity in the stomach, as well as the small intestine. Thus, plant enzymes are the clear choice for digestive support since they begin digesting food right in the stomach.

If a dog or person has had less than optimal digestion and is introduced to digestive enzymes and probiotics there will be a period where the appears to be allergic , or sensitive . This is because there is a house cleaning going on and a lot of waste - bacteria are being eliminated , sometimes more or faster than the liver can handle . All you need to do is to reduce the amount, skip a day , give a break for a day or two and then continue. 

Carmen 
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi Lauri, 
Thank you for your advice. Two things: 
1. he can not eat bones, he does not digest them. I used to feed him Stella and Chewy's patties, they had small pieces of bone in it about 1/16" and it just went through Cody and his stomach was very noisy at that time, more so then now.
2. Animal based enzymes. He was on porcine enzyme in the past and it was not very nice experience. The enzymes were causing really bad acid reflux. A liquid from the stomach was getting back in his air passages and he was having reverse sneezing episodes from it, which was not nice to watch. As soon as I stopped the enzymes the problem with reverse sneezing went away.



Lauri & The Gang said:


> First thing I would do is remove ALL carbs from the dogs diet. No grains, no rice, no potatoes.
> 
> So he's currently 60 lbs and he's under weight? In that case I would feed the following:12 ounces of Muscle Meat
> 14 ounces of Raw Meaty Bones
> ...


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> 2. Animal based enzymes. He was on porcine enzyme in the past and it was not very nice experience. The enzymes were causing really bad acid reflux. A liquid from the stomach was getting back in his air passages and he was having reverse sneezing episodes from it, which was not nice to watch. As soon as I stopped the enzymes the problem with reverse sneezing went away.


I wonder if he is intolerant to pork? My boy is, can't tolerate regular enzymes - used to have another dog on the forum with the same issues. I use plant enzymes: Similase - Integrative Therapeutics Inc - PurePrescriptions.com and also a lamb pancreas glandular. Enzymes will increase acidity.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

It could be. He had the issue only with the pork enzymes. I tried different brands of plant based enzymes and he did not have a problem with those.
I have heard about the glandular but never thought about using it. Where and in what form do you buy it?



LisaT said:


> I wonder if he is intolerant to pork? My boy is, can't tolerate regular enzymes - used to have another dog on the forum with the same issues. I use plant enzymes: Similase - Integrative Therapeutics Inc - PurePrescriptions.com and also a lamb pancreas glandular. Enzymes will increase acidity.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Yesterday I went to buy more turkey breast for Cody and I "finally", after feeding it to him for about a month, realized that the turkey I was buying was basted. I was so mad at myself . Maybe it would not make any difference if I fed him basted or not basted turkey, but I won't know until I try and now I feel like I wasted the whole month.
The turkey I was buying didn't have anything mentioned about the basting on the plastic wrapper on the front, only when I looked better on the reverse side under the nutrition facts label was written with tiny letters "solution mix" (turkey broth, sodium, sugar, flavors, sodium phosphate).
I feel really bad.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> It could be. He had the issue only with the pork enzymes. I tried different brands of plant based enzymes and he did not have a problem with those.
> I have heard about the glandular but never thought about using it. Where and in what form do you buy it?


I have had very good luck with the Similase. 

This is the glandular I'm using: Vitacost - NutriCology Pancreas -- 90 Capsules customer reviews - product reviews - read top consumer ratings

Those, with very extensive probiotics:
Dr Ohhira's Probiotics Wins 2010 'Best Supplement' Award | EcologyHealthCenter.Net
make a big difference for my boy. 

...The turkey. Really sucks when that stuff - you're not alone. I hope the plain version makes a difference.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

*It has been a week since the switch to NOT basted turkey and also since I increased the Prednisone to 1/2 pill in AM and PM. I think Cody improved a little bit, but I did not see a huge improvement. His stomach is still somewhat noisy and he also belches, but not as much as he used too. His poop is well formed, but kind of soft and the very last of it has a consistency of brown-orange colored mashed potato, but it is formed. I don't really know if it is normal or not since half of his food are sweet potatoes. If anybody has any experience please let me know. Also, the vet doesn't want me to add any supplements yet. I am a little bit worried because the food Cody is getting now is not balanced, I hope that it won't create any harm.
I was wondering if anybody has a suggestion what to give to Cody to chew on. I run out of options, raw hide is no good, bones are no good (he does not digest them) and now I can not give him the bully sticks anymore either. What can I give him?
One more thing, he stopped loosing weight and is slowly gaining like 1/2 pound a week







.*


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It's good that he is able to gain weight.

I think that the amount of sweet potatoes will make the stool that color, and, for many dogs, kinda mushy.

Adult dogs can be on unbalanced diets for a bit and be okay. However, I think the body needs a lot of support. I'm big into the supplement thing.....


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Katarina said:


> *It has been a week since the switch to NOT basted turkey and also since I increased the Prednisone to 1/2 pill in AM and PM. I think Cody improved a little bit, but I did not see a huge improvement. His stomach is still somewhat noisy and he also belches, but not as much as he used too. His poop is well formed, but kind of soft and the very last of it has a consistency of brown-orange colored mashed potato, but it is formed. I don't really know if it is normal or not since half of his food are sweet potatoes. If anybody has any experience please let me know. Also, the vet doesn't want me to add any supplements yet. I am a little bit worried because the food Cody is getting now is not balanced, I hope that it won't create any harm.
> I was wondering if anybody has a suggestion what to give to Cody to chew on. I run out of options, raw hide is no good, bones are no good (he does not digest them) and now I can not give him the bully sticks anymore either. What can I give him?
> One more thing, he stopped loosing weight and is slowly gaining like 1/2 pound a week
> 
> ...


Antlers, Kongs, and Nylabones are standards here.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Normally, nylabones would be okay, but I wouldn't give them in this circumstance - they have made some dogs vomit bile (mine included), so for a dog on a limited diet, these shouldn't be fed, they might compromise your diet.

Use a kong with *only* things that are okay in the diet already.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

I guess for now I don't have to worry about what to give Cody to chew.
Saturday was the second day without Metronidazol and the diarrhea started all over again. First only mucus and then mucus and blood.
Is this what is to be expected happening over and over again with a dog with IBD? When I see blood in stool in freaks me out completely. I took him to ER, they put him back on Metronidazol . Things are getting slowly better.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

It is my experience, that unless you find out what supplements and supportive care that your individual dog needs, then this is what happens, yes 

I have seen this with people with Crohn's disease too. In fact, in a GSD, I would be more inclined to treat this as a version of Crohn's. In a retriever, I am not as sure of the genetic tendencies to have the right name. 

I am also of the opinion that, without combining alternative methods with conventional care, most often you are going to repeat the same cycle. This is usually where I have issues with many of the specialists.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Cody is back to his normal after being put back on Metronidazol. We went to see his vet today because while waiting in ER on Sunday I discovered a lump on his back. First they thought that it was lipoma but then they poked it with needle and it was filled with blood. They said it is probably a hematoma, they drew the blood out of it, but on Tuesday I felt it there again. Today the vet drew blood out if it and looked at it under a microscope and said that he does not see anything unusual only blood. If it does not disappear in a week it should be taken out :-(.
The vet also prescribed Budesonide in addition to Prednisone and Metronidazol. Cody should be slowly weaned off the Prednisone and Budesonide should replace it. I almost got an heart attack when I found out how much it costs. I wish I had smt. better to report, but I don't.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

When they can't get success with the usual immune suppressants, they typically try others. Looks like this one has fewer side effects:

Budesonide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi Lisa,
Yes, it does have fewer side effects, but after seeing how much it costs I am not surprised that the vets or doctors don't prescribe it as a initial drug in IBD treatment. (Costco price for 30 tab. is $350.00) Although it has fewer side effects on its own I read that if combined with other steroid drug like e.g. Prednisone, it can worsen the side effects of the other steroid. 




LisaT said:


> When they can't get success with the usual immune suppressants, they typically try others. Looks like this one has fewer side effects:
> 
> Budesonide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Have you tried acupunture yet?


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Lisa, I did not yet. I was hoping to be done with Prednisone and Metronidazol soon and then try the acupuncture. Somewhere I read that sometimes the acupuncture can make more harm than good if done while on drugs. I don't quite understand how.



LisaT said:


> Have you tried acupunture yet?


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> Somewhere I read that sometimes the acupuncture can make more harm than good if done while on drugs. I don't quite understand how.


A good practitioner will know how to deal with meds. That's a bit silly of whoever wrote that.


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## BowWowMeow (May 7, 2007)

Ok, posting in this thread instead of in a pm. 

Things that worked for IBD:

Homeopet Digestive Upsets (for diarrhea)
Slippery Elm (for diarrhea and to help heal the digestive tract)
Perfect Form by Honest Kitchen
Phytomucil by Animals Apawthecary
ONP GI Support (see below)

This is the probiotic I used for Cleo and it was much better than anything else I tried: Colon Comfort Formula 8 oz [CCF8] - $20.20 : Ojibwa Tea of Life™, Online Store


Here is a link to look for supplements. Read the reviews on each one carefully (people often mention if their dog has IBD) and I'd recommend only trying one thing at a time. 

Bowel Discomfort for Dogs at Only Natural Pet Store


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Thank you much for the info. Some of them I know, but did not try yet and some of them are new to me. I am going to read reviews.



BowWowMeow said:


> Ok, posting in this thread instead of in a pm.
> 
> Things that worked for IBD:
> 
> ...


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Lisa, you were right, I talked to an acupuncturist and he said that he can do the treatment while Cody takes the medications .



LisaT said:


> A good practitioner will know how to deal with meds. That's a bit silly of whoever wrote that.


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Katarina said:


> Lisa, you were right, I talked to an acupuncturist and he said that he can do the treatment while Cody takes the medications .



:thumbup: Good to hear! I hope he responds well.


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

*I thought that it would be a good thing to make an update here. Cody is currently on Prednisone, Metronidazol and Budesonide. He is being weaned off the Prednisone. He should be taking 1/2 tab twice a week for next two weeks and then stop the Prednisone completely. Keeping my fingers crossed that he won't get diarrhea back.
He is still on turkey and sweet potato diet, but we started to work with a nutritionist, so the diet might change and supplements will be added to balance it. Also, good news is that since Cody started to take the Budesonide he gained weight. He is now back to 62.5 lbs, which seems to be the right weight for him, so we don't need to gain anymore. Yaay!

*


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## Katarina (Mar 4, 2011)

Hi everybody! Tomorrow should be the last 1/2 Tab of Prednisone for Cody, so far so good. We are still on turkey and sweet potato diet, but adding supplements to balance the diet. Also, we had to cut down calories because the boy is up to 64 lbs and starting to look chubby







. His stool improved quite a bit since we started to add the supplements, so I hope it will continue that way. I noticed one thing, which I think has to do with the medications he is on. His paw pads turned pink on the edges and also on his nose a pink color showed up which has never been there before. If anybody knows anything regarding this please let me know. I hope it will go away once he is off the meds.


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