# How easy is it to fix?



## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Pat Trotter asked this question at her seminar last week, so I wanted to toss it out to the GSD breeders. Name the 4 hardest "problems" to fix in your line, #1 being the most difficult (multiple generations to correct, if ever) and #4 being the easiest (see an improvement in only 1 or 2 generations). 

After you all have thrown out your ideas, I'll let you know what she said.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

*Fixing faults*

I had originally posted this under the genetics section, but I'm wondering if anyone even saw it? So I moved it to the general breeding section.

Pat Trotter asked this question at her seminar last week, so I wanted to toss it out to the GSD breeders. Name the 4 hardest "problems" to fix in your breed, #1 being the most difficult (multiple generations to correct, if ever) and #4 being the easiest (see an improvement in only 1 or 2 generations). 

After you all have thrown out your ideas, I'll let you know what she said.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

From watching dogs train, trial and show:

1. Lack of resilience (ie -hardness, ability to accept corrections in training, stand up to adversity in work)
2. Lack of fight drive (work is a game, if it becomes hard, quitting rather than taking it up a notch)
3. Stablity in nerve strength - environmental and social nerves
4. Propensity of breeders to make fashionable structure over functional structure (ie Frank Lloyd Wright - "Form follows Function") further destroying character and working ability


The easiest to "fix"

1.  Color/pigmentation 
2. Minor conformation flaws - considering functional structure, not the minutia of show quality - adding more substance overall, toe in/out etc.


All this overshadowed by random greed evidenced by overproduction of poor quality ("just a pet") pups in this breed flooding the market to the point of destruction of the breed and thousands of unfortunate individuals.

Lee


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> Pat Trotter asked this question at her seminar last week, so I wanted to toss it out to the GSD breeders. Name the 4 hardest "problems" to fix in your breed, #1 being the most difficult (multiple generations to correct, if ever) and #4 being the easiest (see an improvement in only 1 or 2 generations).


1. Hardest: Any illness or defective structural problem passed down through recessive genes or genetic factors we don't completely understand yet. (EPI, Cryptorchidism, HD etc.)

2. Breeder mentality and depth of knowledge as it pertains to their breeding practices. 

3. Public opinion 

4. Easiest: Temperament, structural, cosmetic and health issues caused by known factors 

#2 could be the hardest to change but even a great breeder can't control what he or she doesn't yet understand so I gave it the second spot.


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

In the ASL, I would say the hardest thing to fix would be temperament, second would be fronts, third would be bad feet.

The easiest things to fix or add are color and rear angulation (that is why so many ASL's have too long a stifle, it is sooo easy to get.)


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

some very good points so far.. 
I'll post after a while and tell you her ideas


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

1) Temperament/nerves

2) health

3) conformation

4) drive


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

For the breed of German Shepherd, I agree with Christine's first three in the same order. The fourth one,(drive), is more complicated for me as you can introduce or delete drive, but drive really has to be introduced only if the nerve is present to handle it. But nerve/temperament is clearly first for this breed, it is easiest to lose and hardest to bring back. It should never be compromised. Health has to be broken into the health issues that are inherent in the breed and other health issues that are created as result of bad breeding.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

1. Nerve
2. Health
3. Temperament
4. Specific Structure


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Who is Pat Trotter?


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

Pat Trotter is a highly successful Norweigen Elkhound breeder and judge of all breeds of dogs. She won the Hound Group at the Westminster dog show 7 years in a row, owner-breeder-handled.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

Pat Trotter is also the author of "Born to Win" 

Here is her "list" from most difficult to easiest.

1) fronts
2) ratio of rib to loin (compromised rib cage)
3) hinquarters, croup, and tail
4) elements that make a breed "itself"


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

I see how close I was now


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Sounds good for show dogs!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

cliffson1 said:


> Sounds good for show dogs!


Lol! Yeah, I looked at that list and said... so, basically.... "conformation, conformation, conformation, conformation."

Sorry, but that's just one element of a dog. And I'd rather have a hideous dog with a dozen conformation faults with a great temperament and great health than a gorgeous dog with terrible temperament and bad health. Although, I likely wouldn't breed either.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

she is actually right, I think, in saying that a good conformation is required to work. 

A dog with a compromised front end won't have the correct angle to his shoulders to withstand long exercise. The stress of running/jumping won't be absorbed by the body as it should, causing the dog to wear out at a young ago. A dog with a compromised rib cage isn't going to have the room his heart/lungs need to work properly (example used was sight hounds)

The example she used of bad hindquarters was the showline GSD, stating that they would never stand up to any actual job.
She also stated that she wonders if a compromised rib cage might be linked to cardio problems in certain breeds.
She said type (what makes a breed "itself") is inescapable linked to function and that any trait that takes away from that function is a fault.

She used this quote from Tolstoy as an illustration of how focusing on conformation can be detrimental to a breed - "How complete is the delusion that beauty is goodness"

Does it play out that way in the show ring? Not always, maybe not even usually. But, therein lies the catch 22 that we see in the GSD world. People don't show working lines because they don't win. Judges put up show lines, but what other dogs are there for them to see? So more working line people say "nope, showing is pointless" and on and on.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

I disagree with the premise that show structure is necessary to work, its NONSENSE. This is the biggest bunch of malarkey since the extreme sidegait is needed to herd all day. Nothing but propaganda put forth by people who mostly have never really worked a dog. Doing a little AKC obedience is not work and conformation showing is certainly not work!! Let's look at this realistically. Look at the overwhelming dogs that do real extensive work in the breed both past and now. Get some books for some of you and look at the GS that were real sheep herding dogs. Dogs that would work all day out in pastures and with sheep. Look at their structure, YOU never hear people concerned about their fronts and their structure doesn't look like the dogs in the show ring. Look at military and Police dogs, Search and Rescue dogs, dogs that have to work long and hard in their jobs, you don't have the trainers and procurers wringing their hands about fronts and angulations. Been around these dogs and these operations for close to forty years and I have never heard a trainer or procurer for military, police, etc even talk about this element. Never seen a dog washed out of a real working program because the shoulder was too steep or short upper arm. Seen many many dogs washed out because they didn't have it between the ears....but this myth that perfect structure is needed to work is not borne out in real life. This is something created to justify the show world's breeding direction. I was with some 50 police dogs just last week. I saw all kinds of structure that the ring people would consider faulty, the only thing I didn't see was the extreme show type that is supposed to be correct so the dog could work for long periods. Trouble was THESE were real working dogs and I kept looking for that shoulder/front/angulation that would allow these dogs to be successful at work. I'm sorry, but it bugs me when I hear garbage that isn't part of the real world but usually promulgated by people who don't even reside in that world. ...Sorry for the rant, but look at the next 10 real working dogs you see in life and look at the stucture....maybe seeing is believing.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I think we only need to look to those hideous little brown dogs to disprove the ideas presented by the show folks.


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## KLCecil (Jul 1, 2010)

Dainerra said:


> she is actually right, I think, in saying that a good conformation is required to work.
> 
> A dog with a compromised front end won't have the correct angle to his shoulders to withstand long exercise. The stress of running/jumping won't be absorbed by the body as it should, causing the dog to wear out at a young ago. A dog with a compromised rib cage isn't going to have the room his heart/lungs need to work properly (example used was sight hounds)
> 
> ...


I have to agree with this, Conformation is VERY important. Not in the scenes of "show conformation". But a correct working conformation is needed for a dog to function for what it was bred for. Poor conformation will put more ware and tear on the body producing an inefficient working dog.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

exactly Kimberly. Her point (regarding GSDs) was that the show dogs would be UNABLE to work. That the show world is a world of extremes and that can be a detriment to any breed. 
I never said anything about PERFECT structure; I said CORRECT structure. Take my boys, Singe is much better put together (more correct structure) than Rayden. Singe can run circles, better corners, and longer time than Rayden could ever dream of.


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

I think you can have backs that are overlong and likely to be injured; ligamentation that is too loose that leads to tears and strains; and some conformation problems will make it harder for a dog to jump or turn nimbly. It is worthwhile to breed for sound conformation. Good shoulders are desirable for dogs who herd, for example--it helps them get around the sheep and in patrolling a field border.

But as Cliff says, there's an awful lot of dogs with less than excellent conformation who are doing real work every day. And for sure, the extreme sidegait that is selected for in show rings is more hindrance than help in *any* sort of work.


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