# Oakland Police Shoot Old Arthritic Lab



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Oakland Police Shoot, Kill Family's Yellow Lab - Local News - San Francisco Bay Area, CA - NBCBAYAREA - msnbc.com

"The Oakland Police Department is apologizing for the death of a family's dog. 

Gloria, a yellow Labrador, was the only one home Tuesday when offcers arrived to check out a burglar alarm call. The Hallock family says 11-year-old Gloria had arthritis in her hips and had trouble getting around.


Oakland police say Gloria began growling and barking and then made a threatening move toward the officers as they approached. The officers shot three times -- one shot hit the dog in the head.

..."


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

Good Lord!! Can you imagine coming home from the store and finding a freakin' note on your door that says "Sorry but we killed your dog"? I would have gone ballistic! 

That poor family. RIP Gloria.


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

> The Hallocks say they want to know what police didn't use Taser, mace or pepper spray on the dog instead of going right to the deadly force of a handgun.


...or maybe just close the door? As if the burglar is still going to be there...
I'm kinda getting tired of the excuse that their job is so hard that I couldn't even imagine how hard it is. Yea. Probably... Thats why I don't do it. But they do.


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## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I wonder if the dog was outside or inside. I'm thinking outside, because how would the police get inside the house with nobody home. But the second sentence makes me think the dog was inside. "Gloria was the only one home."


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## Linzi (Mar 23, 2010)

I am shocked, there is no excuse for those big brave police officers to kill poor old Gloria.What is the matter with these people..RIP Gloria you shouldn't have ended your life this way.Love Linzi and Acer XX


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

DharmasMom said:


> Good Lord!! Can you imagine coming home from the store and finding a freakin' note on your door that says "Sorry but we killed your dog"? I would have gone ballistic!
> 
> That poor family. RIP Gloria.


are you kidding?, they would not even leave a note, nor would they say they were sorry, this is starting to become a common practice with all the police departments


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## vat (Jul 23, 2010)

What is with these cops????? They worry about criminals and look for ways other than hand guns to stop them but yet they go around shooting everyone's dog!!!


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

Here we go again.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

They should have crated or kenneled the dog if they had a security system. It was only a matter of time before it would get set off and the police would have to investigate. Many dogs will react that way to a stranger coming onto their property, it was pretty much a guarantee that the police would shoot it if the security system ever went off.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Sometimes, there just isn't anything to say.

DFrost


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## bellamia (Feb 7, 2010)

wow! words escape me. RIP dear doggy.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

ken k said:


> are you kidding?, they would not even leave a note, nor would they say they were sorry, this is starting to become a common practice with all the police departments


According to the article, they did leave a note.


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## ken k (Apr 3, 2006)

DharmasMom said:


> According to the article, they did leave a note.


I stand corrected


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## doggiedad (Dec 2, 2007)

because they have a security system that
doesn't mean the motion detectors are set.



Syaoransbear said:


> They should have crated or kenneled the dog if they had a security system. It was only a matter of time before it would get set off and the police would have to investigate. Many dogs will react that way to a stranger coming onto their property, it was pretty much a guarantee that the police would shoot it if the security system ever went off.


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## tatiana (Feb 3, 2010)

This makes me so **** angry. 

Well, I guess if you live in Oakland you can go ahead and shoot the cops if they come on your property and look or act aggressive. 

Of course, leave a note that you did so.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

doggiedad said:


> because they have a security system that
> doesn't mean the motion detectors are set.


I didn't say they were set, that would be pretty idiotic to set the motion sensors with a loose dog in the house :crazy:. The burglar system going off at all when no one is home is a death sentence to any dog that doesn't like intruders, especially large breeds.

People should know that an officer is fully within his/her right to shoot your dog if he/she is going after a criminal on your property and your dog is acting in a threatening manner that hinders the police officer from doing his/her job or puts his/her life in danger. Even though this is an old arthritic dog, the police officers don't know that, and it WAS acting aggressive towards them.

The point of a security system is so that it goes off when a burglar breaks in. The police have to come into your house and investigate when you aren't home. I'm not sure if the owners thought that they would never get robbed or if their golden was fine with intruders, but you can't depend on those things. 

It's sad, but the police department doesn't owe them anything and none of the officer deserve to go on leave. I don't believe they've done anything wrong. If you have a security system you need to be prepared for when it goes off one day and you need to have a plan for your dog for when the police come and you aren't home.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

The police were in a no-win situation. The police needed to verify that there were no family members in the house to ensure the safety of the situation. The dog was doing what it should but that was keeping the police from doing what they needed to do. Between the alarm, the dog, and the police there were 3 conflicting security measures. Two conflicting measures are difficult but 3 makes bad results much more likely. 

I hate to think how I would feel if I were forced to make that decision.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

kiwilrdg said:


> The police were in a no-win situation.
> 
> I hate to think how I would feel if I were forced to make that decision.


You make a good point. A lot of people will never have to make that decision, let alone even being faced with such a decision. 

When people are willing to post such things as: "I guess if you live in Oakland you can go ahead and shoot the cops if they come on your property and look or act aggressive." It really isn't going to matter what the officer(s) motives were.

DFrost


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

If a child was being held in the house and the police didn't clear the house because a dog (who may belong to the suspects) was blocking their path there would be a whole different outcry. If the dog was a pit bull the attitudes would also change.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Perhaps so, but I've decided I'll not try to defend or give a different perspective on threads such as this. Facts mean very little when a discussion is based on pathos. Once comments degrade to the point that it's ok to shoot police officers it only demonstrates how ignorant some can be about a situation.

DFrost


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Poor dog. RIP Gloria.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

I have an alarm system and I never ever thought about my dog in the event that the police had to enter my house.

I do keep her in her kennel when we leave, and this is now another safety reason to kennel her when we are not home.


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## PDXDeutschhund (Sep 22, 2010)

So the obvious answer to this dilemma is to train your dog to lie down and play dead if they hear the word "police". 

I have to admit though, I had never thought about this problem and I was considering a security system for my home. Something to keep in mind most definitely.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

this is one of the reasons my dogs are kenneled when we leave, besides the fact they counter surf even when we leave NOTHING on the counters or in the sinks. Poor Gloria was only doing what she thought best. Labs may be sweet and people friendly but they still have it in them to protect. She was probably scared and thats why she reacted in such a way. I dont agree its right but i think the police were only doing their jobs as well. If i had to make sure the family was okay and i encountered a dog that appeared to be acting aggressively, i would question what to do no doubt. They made the split second decision regardless of it being right or wrong. Its their job to decide quickly. I'm sorry this family lost their pet as a result of police actions. Its not right but sadly it happens. I do think policies need to be changed to prevent these "accidents" though.


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## PDXDeutschhund (Sep 22, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> this is one of the reasons my dogs are kenneled when we leave, besides the fact they counter surf even when we leave NOTHING on the counters or in the sinks. Poor Gloria was only doing what she thought best. Labs may be sweet and people friendly but they still have it in them to protect. She was probably scared and thats why she reacted in such a way. I dont agree its right but i think the police were only doing their jobs as well. If i had to make sure the family was okay and i encountered a dog that appeared to be acting aggressively, i would question what to do no doubt. They made the split second decision regardless of it being right or wrong. Its their job to decide quickly. I'm sorry this family lost their pet as a result of police actions. Its not right but sadly it happens. I do think policies need to be changed to prevent these "accidents" though.


Just out of curiosity, what would you change in their SOP to deal with this kind of situation better? 

I'm running through it in my head, and the only things that could be changed would either be a procedural change from the security company (warning customers about pet/police interaction) or how the family does things. 

There's really nothing the police could have done differently in that situation. When they are breaching, they are not carrying tazers. A lot of police officers carry their tazers in a thigh rig located on their right or left side.

Tazers, like asps or mace, are a less than lethal device that is used in situations where the officer can safely downgrade from a firearm. For the officers in question to switch from their sidearm to their tazer could have potentially put the officers at risk. 

It is standard SOP for police to use their firearms against someone holding a knife within 25 feet because it is proven that someone holding a knife within 25 feet could charge the officer and attack him before he could draw his weapon. I would guess that dogs would fall into a similar category. They are too close to safely determine their intentions before they could attack you, thus making it dangerous to holster your sidearm and draw your tazer.

Just my two cents, but I think the security companies need to do a better job of making home owners aware of police procedures and advise them on how to prepare in the event that something were to happen.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

So how many dogs have been shot by the police since the beginning of this year?

To me it's a pattern. There are different ways to deal with dogs.. but hey, I guess it's justified because they are the police. 

If there was a burglar and somebody was held hostage the dog would have probably been dead already or do you think the burglar would have let that dog growl or bite at him?

But I guess common sense doesn't apply either...


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## Jax's Mom (Apr 2, 2010)

PDXDeutschhund said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you change in their SOP to deal with this kind of situation better?


I'm not entirely kidding when I say this, but how about arming officers with sausage? If they see that there's a dog on the premesis, throw a sausage in there...SOP... I'm sure many dogs will be a lot more inviting after that; if not, he may be aggressive.
I'm sure someone laughed at the taser at first too... not the manliest of all weapons...
If an unarmed human being "advanced" on a cop and they shot them 3 times in the head, I'm sure there would be an investigation.
I'm not saying I'm all that brave or could do what a cop does the rest of the day but I might have one up on a cop that feels his safety is in danger from an arthritic yellow lab. Pitbull, rottwelier, GSD... maybe, but a yellow lab? I'd probably let the yellow lab bite me out of morbid curiosity to see what a yellow lab attack might look like.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

PDXDeutschhund said:


> Just out of curiosity, what would you change in their SOP to deal with this kind of situation better?
> 
> I'm running through it in my head, and the only things that could be changed would either be a procedural change from the security company (warning customers about pet/police interaction) or how the family does things.
> 
> ...


 
well one, security companies should make clients more aware of the possibilities. Clients should be required to post pet specific signs to make law enforcement aware there are animals in the house and it should be noted the animals are left either kenneled or unkenneled. Officers are trained to notice the simple details such as those. 

Two, law enforcement should change their policies in regards to punishment for killing a family pet, provided such knowledge was posted at entry points such as front and back doors. Example, if there is no posted signs stating the animals are in the house (remember kenneled or free roam), they can be not held liable. However if signage is posted and the officers still kill the family pet, the PD should be made to pay damages. The family can sue the PD for personal damages and mental anguish. 

If its required by the security company, with a clause in the contract that if said signage is removed or not posted and there is an incident, no damages can be paid by law enforcement. HOWEVER, if signage is posted and there is an incident that involves injury to a family pet and/or death, the police department would be required to pay damages. In the case of injury, the PD would be required to pay vets bills until the animal is well and cleared by a vet as such. The PD would also be required (damages) to pay for any necessary house repair caused by ther police unloading their guns at suspects and hitting windows, walls, furniture, unless of course the suspect also fires, then bullet analysis would be involved to determine who's to be responsible for what. If death occurs of a family pet as a result of police shooting them, mental anguish and damages should be paid.

But this is my personal opinion. People are expected to pay for damages and such to property and since most states consider pets to be property, no matter who is at fault be it an individual CIVILIAN or law enforcement member, they should be made to pay damages caused. I understand its a split second decision job but it might make them think faster but more logically.


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## PDXDeutschhund (Sep 22, 2010)

Jax's Mom said:


> I'm not entirely kidding when I say this, but how about arming officers with sausage? If they see that there's a dog on the premesis, throw a sausage in there...SOP... I'm sure many dogs will be a lot more inviting after that; if not, he may be aggressive.
> I'm sure someone laughed at the taser at first too... not the manliest of all weapons...
> If an unarmed human being "advanced" on a cop and they shot them 3 times in the head, I'm sure there would be an investigation.
> I'm not saying I'm all that brave or cooed do what a cop does the rest of the day but I might have one up on a cop that feels his safety is in danger from an arthritic yellow lab. Pitbull, rottwelier, GSD... maybe, but a yellow lab? I'd probably let the yellow lab bite me out of morbid curiosity to see if they actually would.


Again, I think the security company needs to be the ones who change their SOP. They need to inform police that there is a dog on scene so they know going in that they might have to deal with an older lab. It might not make a huge difference, but I don't think it could hurt. Intel is always greatly helpful when going into a building.


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## PDXDeutschhund (Sep 22, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> well one, security companies should make clients more aware of the possibilities. Clients should be required to post pet specific signs to make law enforcement aware there are animals in the house and it should be noted the animals are left either kenneled or unkenneled. Officers are trained to notice the simple details such as those.
> 
> Two, law enforcement should change their policies in regards to punishment for killing a family pet, provided such knowledge was posted at entry points such as front and back doors. Example, if there is no posted signs stating the animals are in the house (remember kenneled or free roam), they can be not held liable. However if signage is posted and the officers still kill the family pet, the PD should be made to pay damages. The family can sue the PD for personal damages and mental anguish.
> 
> ...


Well, I agree that signage would make things much easier, but I also think the family can control whether the police are A) called in the event of an alarm going off, and B) whether they breach or if they only drive by. My father has an alarm system at his business, and I remember many times when I was a kid that the security company would call with an alarm and he would have to get up in the middle of the night to go check it out.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> So how many dogs have been shot by the police since the beginning of this year?
> 
> To me it's a pattern. There are different ways to deal with dogs.. but hey, I guess it's justified because they are the police.
> 
> ...


*sadly common sense isnt as common as it should be. I agree it is a pattern. instead of thinking, they shoot first and ask questions later. There was a story in the news about ten years ago back home in Colorado similar to this one. Police reported to the scene to check the home after the alarm went off. The entered the property and it was cleared. As they were leaving, one of the officers stepped on the family cats tail who'd been hiding under the chair near the front door. Naturally the cat screamed and tried to get away as quickly as he could. The officer shot the cat before he realized what had happened. He didnt use logic or common sense. he shot first and THEN asked questions and sadly its been a trend since. The only good thing that came from that, was the officer not only paid for the damages, he got the family a kitten and took care of all vet bills for the first year. *



Jax's Mom said:


> *I'm not entirely kidding when I say this, but how about arming officers with sausage?* If they see that there's a dog on the premesis, throw a sausage in there...SOP... I'm sure many dogs will be a lot more inviting after that; if not, he may be aggressive.
> I'm sure someone laughed at the taser at first too... not the manliest of all weapons...
> If an unarmed human being "advanced" on a cop and they shot them 3 times in the head, I'm sure there would be an investigation.
> I'm not saying I'm all that brave or could do what a cop does the rest of the day but I might have one up on a cop that feels his safety is in danger from an arthritic yellow lab. Pitbull, rottwelier, GSD... maybe, but a yellow lab? I'd probably let the yellow lab bite me out of morbid curiosity to see what a yellow lab attack might look like.


*i have to agree with this. Carry dog treats. They encounter so many dogs on their calls, it might be a good idea. I do everything i can to reasonably socialize my dogs with firefighters and law enforcement in full uniform. Yes i want my dogs to guard the home when we're not there when they're allowed to stay out of the kennels. However i want them to allow law enforcement in when its necessary. *


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

PDXDeutschhund said:


> Well, I agree that signage would make things much easier, but I also think the family can control whether the police are A) called in the event of an alarm going off, and B) whether they breach or if they only drive by. My father has an alarm system at his business, and I remember many times when I was a kid that the security company would call with an alarm and he would have to get up in the middle of the night to go check it out.


the thing about that though is some security companies make it mandatory that they not only call the homeowners or company owners but they also call law enforcement. Its very possible that their security company called the home to find out if it was a false alarm and got no answer and therefore called the police. Better safe than sorry and they're getting paid to secure. and some people dont give out their cell numbers to ANYONE except family and friends. The ONLY reason companies have my cell number is because that was basically our home number for the last couple years until we got the house phone.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

Mrs.K said:


> So how many dogs have been shot by the police since the beginning of this year?
> 
> To me it's a pattern. There are different ways to deal with dogs.. but hey, I guess it's justified because they are the police.
> 
> ...


That's a fair question. In order for you to obtain a fair answer however, you would also need the number of confrontations with dogs that didn't result in them being shot. Those of course, don't make the news. One can only guess there are hundreds if not thousands of contacts per day, certainly per week. 

At any rate, to determine a pattern, if a person wanted to be objective, wouldn't you also need to know the ones that weren't shot?

DFrost


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Mrs.K said:


> So how many dogs have been shot by the police since the beginning of this year?


My sister has been compiling a list - this incident is the 25th this year across the country, at least that she's been able to find.


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## DharmasMom (Jul 4, 2010)

There was a K9 officer that did security in the ER that I used to work. He made the comment to me one night - "We shoot dogs all the time. If I feel threatened, I am going to shoot the dog." And this was from a K9 officer. All it takes if for them to FEEL threatened. And they don't think twice about it. Sad.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

DharmasMom said:


> There was a K9 officer that did security in the ER that I used to work. He made the comment to me one night - "We shoot dogs all the time. If I feel threatened, I am going to shoot the dog." And this was from a K9 officer. All it takes if for them to FEEL threatened. And they don't think twice about it. Sad.


 
see thats what makes me say what a waste. If the dog is actually threatening, i could understand but just feeling threatened? that doesnt fly. I mean what if they encounter an aggressive chihuahua? they shoot, the dog doesnt just die, it splatters. Sorry for the gross imagery but its the truth. Sorry. My dogs are all bark and tail wags. A cop comes into my home and shoot them because he felt threatened, you can sure bet he's getting sued out of a job. I understand some dogs are actually a threat but a 12 year old lab? really? by the time a lab reaches 10, they're moving so slowly and not interested in much of anything i really dont see how i could feel threatened. ick on them.


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## PDXDeutschhund (Sep 22, 2010)

KZoppa said:


> see thats what makes me say what a waste. If the dog is actually threatening, i could understand but just feeling threatened? that doesnt fly. I mean what if they encounter an aggressive chihuahua? they shoot, the dog doesnt just die, it splatters. Sorry for the gross imagery but its the truth. Sorry. My dogs are all bark and tail wags. A cop comes into my home and shoot them because he felt threatened, you can sure bet he's getting sued out of a job. I understand some dogs are actually a threat but a 12 year old lab? really? by the time a lab reaches 10, they're moving so slowly and not interested in much of anything i really dont see how i could feel threatened. ick on them.


If it took them three shots to hit a 12 year old arthritic lab, I don't think they'd be able to shoot the chihuahua. They'd run out of bullets.


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## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

PDXDeutschhund said:


> If it took them three shots to hit a 12 year old arthritic lab, I don't think they'd be able to shoot the chihuahua. They'd run out of bullets.


 
true but you get my point. but we're also going off the assumtion that cops actually do know how to hit a moving target which clearly if that big bad ol' 12 year old lab was moving fast or slow like i'm figuring she would have been, and they still couldnt hit her with the first shot.... they need some extra practice. I understand not everyone can be a marksmen shooter but gimme a break.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

My dad was outside cleaning his truck, when a salesman from a Security company came up. Tanner was standing right behind the screen and started barking. It scared the bejeebus out of the guy, and he said "It already looks like you have a good Home Security system." My dad smiled, and then the guy said "We have Car Security Systems too." Tanner barked again and the guy left walking rather fast.

Who needs a Home Alarm system??

If a police officer threatened or attempted to shoot my dog who is protecting my property I would tell him "You want to shoot my dog? You have to go through me first!"


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## Bridget (Apr 5, 2004)

My dogs are my security system. Poor Gloria. What a crock.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Ok, normally I don't get myself worked up by what gets posted on this forum. But this thread is not taking a few facts into account, and some of the downright ignorant comments posted by a lot of you are making me feel like coming out of my lurker status. 

I have a few months short of 13 years in the business. When I go on an alarm sounding, it is a priority of dispatch to tell us the pertinent details of the location we are responding to. They will tell us where the motion is coming from (such as a particular door opening or an interior motion, glass breakage, etc.). They will also let us know if there is someone on the premises without proper code. They also advise us if there is/are dog(s) in the building. Sometimes, they will even warn us that the dog is aggressive or tell us the breed.

I am assuming that the owners of Gloria would have made mention of her to the alarm company. Whether or not the alarm dispatcher relayed the information of her presence to the officers responding, or if the police dispatcher told the officers that she would be in the house is unknown. If I know that there is a dog inside of a residence that I am checking and I find an open door, depending on how the dog is reacting to me, I may or may not go in. There are plenty of times that I have been confronted at the door by an angry dog (or two) and simply locked the door and advised the alarm company as to what my findings were. I'm not going in at that point. If I find somewhere on the house that indicates forced entry has been made and there are dogs inside, myself and other officers will set up a perimeter until an owner can respond to contain/control their dogs and a proper search can be made. It is our number one priority when dealing with an aggressive dog to NOT get bit by said dog.  

The officers responding in this instance may not have been aware of Gloria's presence, like I said earlier. Poor Gloria may have been taken by surprise when the officers suddenly appeared in her territory and she acted appropriately and was probably afraid and felt that she was defending herself. I know that you think that a dog with arthritis can't move quickly, but let me tell you when adreniline is in play they move FAST. I have an 11 year old senior with terrible arthritis, and I have seen him run at top speed to "fence fight" with a neighborhood dog that was coming up to taunt him at our back fence. You would never guess that my creaky senior could move that fast if you saw him on a daily basis, but he did and can under the proper circumstances. 

By the time the officers and Gloria were confronting each other, there was no time for any of them (in their minds) to do anything but react. As someone else said, the officers already more than likely had their guns in their hands and, if forced to defend yourself with a threat (a dog bite) you will automatically eliminate that thread. It is by far not the way I would have like the scenario to have played out, but under the circumstances, I feel that the officers were more than likely justified in shooting her, ESPECIALLY if they didn't know that she was in the home. Even if they did know that she was in the house, I can't see where they will really be found at fault for shooting her. It is very sad that the family lost her in this way, but I'm sorry, the officers WERE doing their jobs. 

Put yourself in their shoes during this, please, I ask you....you're checking a door....you find it unlocked. You call out and an assist officer or two goes in with you. You don't know if there is anyone inside the house, and all of your senses are on alert. You come around the corner and you're confronted by an aggressive dog, who by all intents and purposes wants to bite you. Would you instantly asses and see that a barking, lunging, teeth flashing dog moving towards you was "just a harmless senior" or would you defend yourself from the threat? If you were searching a house and a dog was running up to you to BITE YOU, would you reholster the gun in your hand or shoot?

Also, to the knee jerk reaction poster (I believe it was tatiana?) who said that they should "just shoot" the police who came on their property and started acting aggressively, think about this. If you lived in my town, and you were in danger, and I had to risk my life to protect and help you....I would do it, with no hesitation at all. Even if it meant that I wouldn't be going home that night. Peace.


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

DFrost said:


> Sometimes, there just isn't anything to say.
> 
> DFrost


agree'd


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

> By the time the officers and Gloria were confronting each other, there was no time for any of them (in their minds) to do anything but react. As someone else said, the officers already more than likely had their guns in their hands and, if forced to defend yourself with a threat (a dog bite) you will automatically eliminate that thread. It is by far not the way I would have like the scenario to have played out, but under the circumstances, I feel that the officers were more than likely justified in shooting her, ESPECIALLY if they didn't know that she was in the home. Even if they did know that she was in the house, I can't see where they will really be found at fault for shooting her. It is very sad that the family lost her in this way, but I'm sorry, the officers WERE doing their jobs.
> 
> Put yourself in their shoes during this, please, I ask you....you're checking a door....you find it unlocked. You call out and an assist officer or two goes in with you. You don't know if there is anyone inside the house, and all of your senses are on alert. You come around the corner and you're confronted by an aggressive dog, who by all intents and purposes wants to bite you. Would you instantly asses and see that a barking, lunging, teeth flashing dog moving towards you was "just a harmless senior" or would you defend yourself from the threat? If you were searching a house and a dog was running up to you to BITE YOU, would you reholster the gun in your hand or shoot?


I still don't buy it. 

Why is it that in the US all they can do is to shoot while other countries are able to use a different force and they don't even come close to the numbers of shot dogs as in the US. 

We are talking about a family pet here. I don't want to come home one day and find my dogs shot just because some cop felt threatened and I can't even do anything about it. 

Think about a Schutzhund dog. It's not only that these dogs are family members but some of those dogs are worth more than tenthousand dollars. You really think they'll pay for that kind of damage?

And whats even worse is that you can't even let your dog roam freely in your OWN **** HOUSE because you have to fear that a cop could come by and shoot your dog?

What kind of world is that? Do you really want to live in CONSTANT FEAR that something COULD happen? 
That the alarm could go off? That you have to constantly think about the fact that a cop could come in and feel threatened?

WTF. It's your house! Your property and nobody should have the right to simply shoot YOUR PROPERTY in YOUR HOUSE just because they feel threatened.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

If I didn't want the police to be called to my house and enter the house I would not install a burgular alarm. If I were using a burgular alarm I would ensure the dogs were in crates or otherwise contained from the rest of the house because if the alarm goes off the police have evidence of a burgulary being in process.

Don't call the cops unless you want the cops to come. A burgular alarm is a way to call the cops.


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## Linzi (Mar 23, 2010)

This was a false burglar alarm call,not a 911 call.Sorry but after reading the dog's owner's report of the incident,the police were wrong.I have put the link to her story below.
Answering alarm, Oakland police kill family dog - SFGate


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## JonnyRico (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm pretty sure the Officer didn't want to shoot the dog. He had to make a split second decision. Unless you wear the badge and are put in that situation... you really have no idea how stressful the job can be. It's just a very unfortunate incident. I feel bad for the dog and her family, but hold no blame towards the officer.

... Just my thoughts ...


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## BayouBaby (Aug 23, 2010)

Lexi said:


> Ok, normally I don't get myself worked up by what gets posted on this forum. But this thread is not taking a few facts into account, and some of the downright ignorant comments posted by a lot of you are making me feel like coming out of my lurker status.
> 
> I have a few months short of 13 years in the business. When I go on an alarm sounding, it is a priority of dispatch to tell us the pertinent details of the location we are responding to. They will tell us where the motion is coming from (such as a particular door opening or an interior motion, glass breakage, etc.). They will also let us know if there is someone on the premises without proper code. They also advise us if there is/are dog(s) in the building. Sometimes, they will even warn us that the dog is aggressive or tell us the breed.
> 
> ...


Agreed, completely.

My husband is also an officer and I was highly offended by the person who stated to just shoot the police. These men and women risk their lives for all of us! They are husbands, brothers, fathers, uncles, sisters, mothers, aunts, daughters! They have families, too. And they get out there and go into your homes to protect YOUR property at risk to their LIVES. I resent that someone feels a dog is as equally important if not more important than my husband's life. In no case is the life of a dog equal to that of a human. We may humanize our dogs and love them very much, but in the end, they are animals and we are humans. Two different species.

I agree that procedures may need to be reworked, but as it stands right now - it is completely legal to own a firearm in the United States. Bad guys have guns. Good guys have guns. Since most bad guys commit crimes with guns, a responding police officer is going to have his or her firearm at the ready. And until that law changes, police are going to respond with force. Don't like it? Then start voting to ban guns. We can't have it both ways.

Everyone is outraged that Gloria, an arthritic dog was shot. I'm terribly heartbroken for the family, but the officers did their job! How would any of you like it if your spouse was an officer and had to respond to a burglar call... and was told, use a sausage for the snarling, growling, teeth baring dog?! I don't know what the person who posted that was really thinking, because none of my dogs would ever take a treat from a stranger, much less one that they felt was aggressive. Officers do not have time to coax and plead with an aggressive animal. Especially in the case where a human life might be at risk.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Why is it that in the US all they can do is to shoot while other countries are able to use a different force and they don't even come close to the numbers of shot dogs as in the US.


Ok, so you live in a country where I am assuming the average Joe isn't running around with a 9 mm semi-auto. In the US, there are a lot more people out there who are armed than you may realize. If I'm the responding officer, I don't know if there is anyone in that house other than poor Gloria. And sorry, but I'm going in with my gun out, not a taser. Rule #1 of a gunfight. BRING A GUN. Gloria was an unfortunate victim in this situation, I am not denying that (and neither is Oakland PD, apparently, as they apologized). Those officers were going in expecting the worst per their training. You go into a building to clear it with your gun out, not a taser, not your mace can. End of story. 



Mrs.K said:


> We are talking about a family pet here. I don't want to come home one day and find my dogs shot just because some cop felt threatened and I can't even do anything about it.


Did you do what I asked earlier, Mrs. K, and put yourself in their shoes? I am really curious as to what you would have done differently in that situation. You be the cop. Play it from the LEO side for once. You're clearing a building, with your gun out, and you're in a room where a dog is aggressively barking at you. Assume at this point that you can't back out of the room and Gloria is lunging at you with her mouth open. Do you holster your weapon? Run away and take your chances? Well, sorry, but I gaurantee that almost every single officer is going to eliminate the threat. I am not saying that it's good that it happened, or that I'm not sorry for that family, but I am saying that you just aren't thinking this through realistically, and so are a lot of posters to this thread. 



Mrs.K said:


> And whats even worse is that you can't even let your dog roam freely in your OWN **** HOUSE because you have to fear that a cop could come by and shoot your dog
> 
> What kind of world is that? Do you really want to live in CONSTANT FEAR that something COULD happen?
> That the alarm could go off? That you have to constantly think about the fact that a cop could come in and feel threatened?
> ...


So what should an officer do then????? Allow themselves to be bit when your family pet is charging them while they are legally in your home on official police business? Does that really make sense to you? 

Seriously? 

Keep in mind that YOU didn't lock the door here.....the officers will not FORCE ENTRY into your house on an alarm sounding. Their primary job is to check the building, and if it's locked up tight, Cujo could be lunging rabidly at the window at them while frothing at the mouth, and the cops aren't going to break into your home and shoot him. Use some common sense here. They were doing their jobs.

This whole thing is unfortunate and tragic and there are NO winners here. But to say that the police did anything wrong in this situation is ludicrous.


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## BayouBaby (Aug 23, 2010)

Linzi said:


> This was a false burglar alarm call,not a 911 call.Sorry but after reading the dog's owner's report of the incident,the police were wrong.I have put the link to her story below.
> Answering alarm, Oakland police kill family dog - SFGate


"The Tuesday incident began after Hallock left her home on Burgos Avenue in the quiet Knowland Park neighborhood just north of the Oakland Zoo. Hallock had set the burglar alarm, and as she had done many times before, she left the downstairs back door open so Gloria could have refuge from the heat in the fenced backyard. 
The dog apparently tripped the alarm around noon, and the police showed up a few minutes later.
*As officers circled the house, they saw the back door open and thought an intruder was inside*, Thomason said. At that point, Gloria allegedly growled and barked at the officers, and one of the officers fired three rounds, all of which hit the dog - at least one in the head."


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Linzi said:


> This was a false burglar alarm call,not a 911 call.Sorry but after reading the dog's owner's report of the incident,the police were wrong.I have put the link to her story below.
> Answering alarm, Oakland police kill family dog - SFGate


I still fail to see where the police acted wrongly. They viewed an open door at the back of the house, so they went into the backyard in order to investigate, which they HAVE to do. A dog comes up barking and growling at them after they have entered the backyard to investigate the open door. The officer shoots the dog, fearing he was going to be bit. 

Not only did they leave a note, but a commander from the police department later came to the house personally to apologize. So they notified her as to what had happened, and also went out of their way to apologize to the lady for the loss of her pet on top of it. That's going above and beyond what they had to do to notify the owner. 

I think it was pretty foolish on the OWNER'S part to leave the door open in the first place, especially considering she set her alarm before she left. She did this in order to allow the dog to come and go in and out of the house, which sounds nice for the dog, but is almost a gaurantee that the Oakland PD is going to have to respond at some point for a false alarm as she goes in and out of the house and triggers the motion detectors. 

Like I've already said, it's very, very sad what happened, but if the owner was going to let Gloria come and go freely, she should not have set her alarm NOR should she have left the basement door wide open. The officer no doubt saw the open door and felt that he was obligated to enter the backyard to investigate it. Like I said before, this is a bad set of circumstances where no one wins. 

RIP Gloria.


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## angelas (Aug 23, 2003)

One thing I've noticed working for an alarm company is that MOST people NEVER mention their pets to us. Up until they set off the alarm or the owner set off the alarm letting the animal out. 

The PD depts that I talk to (some on a nightly basis) will not force entry into a secure building (all windows intact, doors locked). The FIRE department will for a fire alarm, the police will not for a burglary alarm (different procedures for panic/silent/hold up alarms). Once they find the building insecure they have to go in an investigate. They have to assume there is an unathorized person in the building and may be in the act of committing a crime and/or endangering the people who are supposed to be there. These police saw an open door, they have to assume the worst. They are not privy to the mind of the homeowner who decided to leave access to her house for everyone (including her dog).

What many people don't realize is that they DON'T have to follow the alarm companies procedures for alarms (unless they are UL/ULC listed). If they don't want PD dispatched on anything they can make that the procedure. If they don't want the PD dispatched if it is only a single motion alarm they can make that a procedure. If they don't want PD dispatched if there is a open/disarm/cancel/close/exit error received within XX amount of minutes of the alarm they can do that too. When people ask I always recommend to at least call keyholders/responsible parties before dispatching PD if there is a pet in the house even if they have pet sensitive motion detectors. I can't count the times a cat jumping on top of something has set off a pet sensitive because it jumped up higher than what the PS was set for.

It is tragic that this dog died for protecting its house from intruders (as far as she could tell) but the police are charged with protecting human citizens first, themselves second.


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## PDXDeutschhund (Sep 22, 2010)

Yeah, honestly, I feel terrible for the family, but leaving that door open AND setting the alarm was a grievous error. They have nobody to blame but themselves on this one. I'm sure they don't want to hear that right now, and they want someone to blame for the loss of their dog, but the police are not at fault here.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

There are other ways to handle a dog than to just shoot it.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> There are other ways to handle a dog than to just shoot it.


Ok.......sigh. So, once again then WHAT would YOU do? Everyone says that there are other ways to handle it, but they don't say exactly what the other ways are. And I am talking about a legitimate response, not giving a pupperoni to a dog who is in the zone and couldn't give a crap less about getting a treat while it's in defense drive and adrenaline is pumping. In your answer, I'd like you to go by the following guidelines...getting bit is not acceptable, and we are going under the assumption that you have absolutely no time to retreat from the dog to safety. So what is it that you would do to "handle a dog" under those circumstances?

The simple fact remains that while you may not *like* what happened, and are dissatisfied with how it was handled, officers *MUST* protect themselves from a threat as they see fit. They fulfill a vital role in the community. You can be out from recovering from a dog bite injury for days or even weeks. 

Read again what I posted earlier below. I'd honestly like to see your response. Since it's so easy for everyone to put hindsight 20/20 glasses on and judge a cop's actions, I'd really like to know how you (or anyone for that matter) would have handled it better.



Lexi said:


> Did you do what I asked earlier, Mrs. K, and put yourself in their shoes? I am really curious as to what you would have done differently in that situation. You be the cop. Play it from the LEO side for once. You're clearing a building, with your gun out, and you're in a room where a dog is aggressively barking at you. Assume at this point that you can't back out of the room and Gloria is lunging at you with her mouth open. Do you holster your weapon? Run away and take your chances? Well, sorry, but I gaurantee that almost every single officer is going to eliminate the threat. I am not saying that it's good that it happened, or that I'm not sorry for that family, but I am saying that you just aren't thinking this through realistically, and so are a lot of posters to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GSDolch (May 15, 2006)

Plenty of dept. are not taught how to handle dogs or what to look for. It would be nice if more training were involved in how to deal with dogs, but then that gets into $$$ issues which alot of depts. don't have.

Coming from a family of law/military I agree that they should protect themselves, but there are plenty who are trigger happy and will shoot first ask questions later. Believe me, ive heard the stories and people talk like this, even if the dog is doing nothing wrong...all they have to say is "oh I thought."

For some it is they are in danger, for some its lack of training and no idea on what to do with dogs.


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## ahazra (Aug 20, 2010)

Tragic loss for the family and I really feel bad for them..but I'm of the opinion that the officer probably had no choice. I completely agree with "Angelas" that cops are charged with Protecting human citizens first, then themselves. If in that hierarchy they've perceived a threat and acted accordingly then maybe that was the right thing to do. Unless off course the cop involved has a history of making similar poor judgement under crisis..in which case that cop shouldn't be on active field duty in the first place !


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lexi said:


> *Ok.......sigh. So, once again then WHAT would YOU do? Everyone says that there are other ways to handle it, but they don't say exactly what the other ways are. And I am talking about a legitimate response, not giving a pupperoni to a dog who is in the zone and couldn't give a crap less about getting a treat while it's in defense drive and adrenaline is pumping. In your answer, I'd like you to go by the following guidelines...getting bit is not acceptable, and we are going under the assumption that you have absolutely no time to retreat from the dog to safety. So what is it that you would do to "handle a dog" under those circumstances?
> 
> The simple fact remains that while you may not * *like what happened, and are dissatisfied with how it was handled, officers **MUST protect themselves from a threat as they see fit. They fulfill a vital role in the community. You can be out from recovering from a dog bite injury for days or even weeks.
> 
> Read again what I posted earlier below. I'd honestly like to see your response. Since it's so easy for everyone to put hindsight 20/20 glasses on and judge a cop's actions, I'd really like to know how you (or anyone for that matter) would have handled it better.*


Because there are, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Because there are, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.


That's fine. Don't answer the question. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that I was asking you to specifically come up with a reasonable alternative response for the officer to have taken, but if you don't feel up to the task....


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lexi said:


> That's fine. Don't answer the question. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that I was asking you to specifically come up with a reasonable alternative response for the officer to have taken, but if you don't feel up to the task....


I would answer the question, one of the things the officer can do is ask the owner to get control of the dog. If they don't comply, then take upon yourself, or the officer can take classes or learn about dog behavior. Its not that hard. You should have to take a innocent dog's life for something you could read up or figure out yourself.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I would answer the question, one of the things the officer can do is ask the owner to get control of the dog. If they don't comply, then take upon yourself, or the officer can take classes or learn about dog behavior. Its not that hard. You should have to take a innocent dog's life for something you could read up or figure out yourself.


Huh? :thinking: But the owner wasn't there. They were there on a burglary alarm call, with an open door that the OWNER LEFT OPEN. Kinda hard for them to get control of the dog if they're not there, right?

Also, it's not really easy to gain control of a dog that is barking and lunging at you while you're trying to do your job. The officer had his gun in his hand before he went into the backyard, as he saw the open door before he went into the backyard. Police officers come to a scene armed with gun, NOT a dog catcher's pole. 

I give up. I realize that I could bring up the best argument in the world and you would never even try to see things from my point of view.


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## JonnyRico (Sep 21, 2010)

Some people really don't know how difficult it is to be a police officer.


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## DFrost (Oct 29, 2006)

JonnyRico said:


> Some people really don't know how difficult it is to be a police officer.


 
Some people don't want to know. That officer, responding to an alarm, because that's what he does. Finds an open door. Seeing how around 100 officers have already been killed this year, let's look at his options;

See the dog and say heck with it and leave - probably not.

Call into the house and let a potential bad guy know you are there -- not if you want to go home when the shift is over. 

try to capture the dog, wrestle with it, possibly be bitten, all the time wondering where the bad guy is --- also not a good option. 

That's only three things the officer had to be concerned with; were the owners home but being held hostage, were they already dead, I could go on, but the ones that are already saying we're covering for the police officer, making excuses, etc, etc etc, do not want to be confused with facts. 

I don't know if the officer had other options than what he did, I wasn't there. I have been in similar situations however and my first thought is; I want to go home when my shift is over. 

DFrost


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Thanks DFrost. At least there are a few people on here who get it.


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

I've got a question - what kind of person lives in Oakland, CA and leaves a door not only unlocked, but _open_? Oakland, for those not in the know, is Detroit West. What was this person thinking? Sure, the Knowland Park neighborhood may be "quiet" (according to the San Francisco Chronicle, one of the most anti-law enforcement papers in the U.S.), but it's a three mile drive down I-580 to some of the worst crime zones in the country.

Lexi, some of these people's minds are made up and set in concrete. Some of them have never and will never hold a firearm in their lives. They've never cleared a building, not even in _Wolfenstein_ or _Call Of Duty 4_. They've never tasted that metallic taste that lets them know that they are really _afraid_, not just apprehensive. (And they are fortunate.) But they're experts on police work because they've watched all the seasons of "Law And Order."


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Hunther's Dad said:


> I've got a question - what kind of person lives in Oakland, CA and leaves a door not only unlocked, but _open_? Oakland, for those not in the know, is Detroit West. What was this person thinking? Sure, the Knowland Park neighborhood may be "quiet" (according to the San Francisco Chronicle, one of the most anti-law enforcement papers in the U.S.), but it's a three mile drive down I-580 to some of the worst crime zones in the country.
> 
> Lexi, some of these people's minds are made up and set in concrete. Some of them have never and will never hold a firearm in their lives. They've never cleared a building, not even in _Wolfenstein_ or _Call Of Duty 4_. They've never tasted that metallic taste that lets them know that they are really _afraid_, not just apprehensive. (And they are fortunate.) But they're experts on police work because they've watched all the seasons of "Law And Order."


Never said I knew everything, and never said I am an expert because I watch Law & Order and nor did anyone else. All I said was there are other ways to handle this situation than to just shoot and kill the dog. Maybe at least injure the dog. Sorry for me, death is the last resort for a dog.

Lexi, I was talking about in general.And Hunther's dad you don't know exactly what we would do in this situation. I have actually held a firearm by the way. But I still would try to find other ways to handle the situation.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

What about tranqualizers? I don't understand why they don't use them instead of shooting pets.


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

JonnyRico said:


> Some people really don't know how difficult it is to be a police officer.


I think people do know how difficult it is and that's why they aren't police officers.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> What about tranqualizers? I don't understand why they don't use them instead of shooting pets.


Carry around bullets and tranquilizer things.


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## Klamari (Aug 6, 2010)

I do NOT think the officers were at fault in this situation.



Lexi said:


> The simple fact remains that while you may not *like* what happened, and are dissatisfied with how it was handled, officers *MUST* protect themselves from a threat as they see fit. They fulfill a vital role in the community.


I agree with what Lexi said above. Sometimes life sucks and people are faced with hard choices. Seems like the officers picked the lesser of two evils in this situation. There are not many options in that situation. Get attacked by this dog, possibly severely injured... or shoot. It doesn't take much for a dog's canine to hit an artery and then you have a police officer bleeding out on the floor while the others are trying to wrestle down or tranqualize the family pet.

And if I was a cop, I don't think I would want to take the time to holster my gun, WHILE the dog is on the attack, and take out a tranqualizer (which is just another thing they would have to carry on their belts). Are you serious!! You don't have the time to do that! The dog might be on you by that time. 

If a criminal had a gun to your head, who would you want to come to your aid? the family pet, old and arthritic? or a cop with a gun? They are police officers. They have a job to do. And I am very thankful they are there to do that job. Their lives are more important than family pets. And when they feel their lives are threatened, they have the right to react with force.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Carry around bullets and tranquilizer things.


Um...do you know that it can take several minutes for a tranquilizer dart to take effect? Unless you are planning on finding a tree to climb up while you sit and wait for it to work, that's not a real effective method of dealing with a dog that's charging you. 



Jessiewessie99 said:


> All I said was there are other ways to handle this situation than to just shoot and kill the dog. Maybe at least injure the dog. Sorry for me, death is the last resort for a dog.
> 
> Lexi, I was talking about in general.And Hunther's dad you don't know exactly what we would do in this situation. I have actually held a firearm by the way. But I still would try to find other ways to handle the situation.


Well then Jessie, you'd be the officer that was possibly out for a few weeks or longer when you eventually got bit. And if HEAVEN FORBID you came across an aggressive, loose dog during the course of your duties and took the bleeding heart route when you SHOULD HAVE SHOT the dog, I hope that you'd be able to live with yourself if the dog ran away from you (since you didn't stop it) and attacked and seriously injured another person in the area, maybe even a child.

Good thing you're not a cop, because you HAVE to be able to shoot dogs (and sometimes even people) during the course of your duties should the circumstances and need arise. No offense, but it doesn't sound like you OR Mrs. K has the stomach to do the job *right*.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Hunther's Dad said:


> I've got a question - what kind of person lives in Oakland, CA and leaves a door not only unlocked, but _open_? Oakland, for those not in the know, is Detroit West. What was this person thinking? Sure, the Knowland Park neighborhood may be "quiet" (according to the San Francisco Chronicle, one of the most anti-law enforcement papers in the U.S.), but it's a three mile drive down I-580 to some of the worst crime zones in the country.


She was outside, the dog, right? So not sure about the door? Maybe a dog door? 


> Gloria, an 11-year-old, arthritic yellow Labrador Hallock's family had owned since she was a puppy. Oakland police shot Gloria three times with a 40-caliber Glock handgun in the family's backyard while responding to a false burglar alarm at the property. The dog, police said, growled and barked at them.


Answering alarm, Oakland police kill family dog - SFGate

Gloria: http://media.nbcbayarea.com/images/410*307/GloriaLab2.jpg
Family Photo 

So they are apologizing and looks like the Chief is on it: 


> The Oakland Police Department is apologizing for the death of a family's dog.
> 
> 
> The shooting death of Gloria comes just a few months after an Oakland officer shot and killed a young deer that found its way to a resident's back yard, prompting Police Chief Anthony Batts to call for a policy review.


Oakland Police Shoot, Kill Family's Yellow Lab | NBC Bay Area


So it's not like the department is saying this is okay from the sounds of it?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lexi said:


> Um...do you know that it can take several minutes for a tranquilizer dart to take effect? Unless you are planning on finding a tree to climb up while you sit and wait for it to work, that's not a real effective method of dealing with a dog that's charging you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find this post rather offensive.I do deal with aggressive dogs at a shelter, dog that are aggressive for many reasons. and I have dealt with loose aggressive dogs as well. I would do what I can to make sure the dog didn't hurt anyone else. And I am not scared to get a dog under control. All I said was that there are other ways. I said you don't have to kill the dog at least injure it if necessary.

I know that when you are a cop you will have to shoot people, and if necessary dogs, or I would have someone else do it. 

I have considered to become a cop, there is more to being a cop than shooting dogs.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I find this post rather offensive.I do deal with aggressive dogs at a shelter, dog that are aggressive for many reasons. and I have dealt with loose aggressive dogs as well. I would do what I can to make sure the dog didn't hurt anyone else. And I am not scared to get a dog under control. All I said was that there are other ways. I said you don't have to kill the dog at least injure it if necessary.
> 
> I know that when you are a cop you will have to shoot people, and if necessary dogs, or I would have someone else do it.
> 
> I have considered to become a cop, there is more to being a cop than shooting dogs.


The only reason I didn't become a German cop was because at the age of 13 I was run over by an American Soldier (and now I am married to one, go figure LOL) and sat in a wheel chair for about a year so that pretty much made it impossible because they ruled me out medically. 

I wanted to be a cop so bad that I didn't know what else I could be other than a cop. 

They actually do deal with dog situations differently over here. Even when a dog is lose, they don't just shoot the dog, they try to do everything else first. If there is a dog on the road they block the road, try catch the dog, even tranquelize him and if it is still impossible and the dog is endangering traffic than the dog gets shot. 

Shooting over here is the last resort. I don't know how they'd dealt with it in a situation like that but let me ask and I will post it later.


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> The only reason I didn't become a German cop was because at the age of 13 I was run over by an American Soldier (and now I am married to one, go figure LOL) and sat in a wheel chair for about a year so that pretty much made it impossible because they ruled me out medically.
> 
> I wanted to be a cop so bad that I didn't know what else I could be other than a cop.
> 
> ...


While anything like that barely happens, the cops wouldn't handel the situation differently in this case. I thought it over and over and over again and Lexi is right. In that second you have no other choice but to shoot. Especially if the cops don't have the prior training some of us have. Even dog people like us can get it wrong sometimes and we may confuse a young dog over an old dog and it also depends on the breeds. While most of us know a lot about German Shepherds it doesn't mean that we know as much about different breeds.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> She was outside, the dog, right? So not sure about the door? Maybe a dog door?
> Answering alarm, Oakland police kill family dog - SFGate
> 
> Gloria: http://media.nbcbayarea.com/images/410*307/GloriaLab2.jpg
> ...



The woman left the basement door open. So, how could the cops know that it was open on purpose and not because a burglar was inside?

It's good that they apologized, but that's not the same as saying "we did something wrong." My neighbor apologized for running over another neighbor's cat, but it wasn't his fault. It was the fault of the person who just let his pets roam free in the neighborhood. 

As for the deer case, it sounds like the main "wrong" done by the dept was that they can't shoot for crap. A deer can actually be very dangerous, esp if cornered and scared. But, firing that many shots and not hitting/killing the animal is 1) cruel and 2) dangerous to bystanders.

I did read another article where they are going to have training in how to deal with pets/wildlife. I think that will be safer for all involved. Will it mean no more dogs get shot? No, but it will help defuse a lot of situations.

So, I guess you can count me on the side of those who think the cops were right to shoot the dog in this case. Here is a scenario others seem to have missed. Say the cop DID have tranquilizers to use on the dog. He puts his gun away and darts the dog. While doing that, the armed burglar comes out the back door and sees the cop. BOOM. cop is dead.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

I saw a post suggesting that they injure or drug the dog. What a great idea. Instead of a scared dog they would have a scared and injured dog. That would make him much easier to deal with in the 15 seconds that the police need to get a jump on potential home invasion suspects.

On a call the officers need to respond assuming the worst possible scenario. When there is evidence of someone entering the house (the open door) they need to assume that there is someone in the house that shouldn't be there and someone trapped by the person who shouldn't be there. This is rarely the actual scenario, but if my wife was the one trapped in the house I sure would prefer the police being ready. 

The earlier mention of policy review shows that an issue is being looked at to determine if there is a problem. It might mean the policy will be determined to be good. Just like most departments put officers that shoot someone on administrative leave as soon as the incedent is under control. The police are constantly reviewing and revising policy because the suspects never seem to follow the policy.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I think it's great that they a. doing a policy review and b. implementing new training. 

I think that the PD is acting responsibly. I do not think they are asking to be defended, but are saying we are trying to do better. They are to be commended. 

I did not see the reference to the basement door being open - must be in another article.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Never said the cops were wrong. All I said is are other things to besides just shooting the dog and killing it(in general, not just talking about this case.). But also, I never said they should never do it, if it at all costs they had to they they should. 

I am glad they are taking courses and trying to find other ways to deal with dogs and other wildlife.


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## kiwilrdg (Aug 26, 2010)

> I did not see the reference to the basement door being open - must be in another article.


In Answering alarm, Oakland police kill family dog - SFGate


> The Tuesday incident began after Hallock left her home on Burgos Avenue in the quiet Knowland Park neighborhood just north of the Oakland Zoo. Hallock had set the burglar alarm, and as she had done many times before, she left the downstairs back door open so Gloria could have refuge from the heat in the fenced backyard


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

I must say Oakland isn't one of the best cities to live in. But like most cities there are good areas and areas.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I find this post rather offensive.I do deal with aggressive dogs at a shelter, dog that are aggressive for many reasons. and I have dealt with loose aggressive dogs as well. I would do what I can to make sure the dog didn't hurt anyone else. And I am not scared to get a dog under control. All I said was that there are other ways. I said you don't have to kill the dog at least injure it if necessary.
> 
> I know that when you are a cop you will have to shoot people, and if necessary dogs, or I would have someone else do it.
> 
> I have considered to become a cop, there is more to being a cop than shooting dogs.


Well to that, I have to say that I find it _*very*_ offensive that people such as yourself (and many others) are so willing to sit back and judge an officer's actions when you haven't got the slightest clue as to what you are talking about, so I guess we are even there. 

I never once implied that shooting dogs was all there was to being a cop. The fact is that sometimes you have to make a hard choice to do something that you don't want to do, something that actually bothers you as you are doing it, but you still have to do your job.

As someone who's been in a similar situation myself, I feel more than qualified to defend this officer's position. I was once charged by a dog who had just bitten a child. The dog's owners knew it had gotten out (it had run past them as they opened the front door) and they knew that the dog was roaming the neighborhood. The dog bit a child who was waiting for their bus. I did not see where the dog was, but it must have doubled back to its house. As I walked up the steps to the front door to try and get the idiot owners to COME AND GET THEIR DOG, she came charging around the side of the house and up the front steps, growling and snarling at me. I was NOT going to give that dog the benefit of the doubt and allow it to bite me. I did what I had to do. 

The owners came to the front door after the dog was shot, and trust me, I felt HORRIBLE, not for them, but for their six year old little girl who was crying because her dog, who had never been aggressive to her, was dead in the front yard. And these people were so stupid, I had to yell at them to bring the little girl back inside so that she didn't see it. And they were mad at ME for killing their dog. 

On top of me shooting their dog, they also got a ticket for allowing their dog to run at large. 

Does this make me a monster????? I know that my situation was not exactly the same as the situation in Oakland, but guess what, not all cops are gung ho with their firearm out, ready to pop off rounds at every loose dog in the neighborhood (which is what many of you seem to be implying). Sometimes a tough choice has to be made, a choice brought about by circumstances that are out of our control. It is not the dog's fault that its owner left the basement door of the house open and then set the alarm, and it was not the dog's fault in my instance that it got out and the owner just said, "Oh well" and went back inside and about their day. But a hard choice had to be made, and getting bit is not an option in either intance. 

As some people have mentioned, not everyone is a dog person. Not everyone can tell when a dog is exhibiting fear based behavior which, if push came to shove the dog would back down. I have experienced this difference.

Another example....I was chasing a Rottie around a neighborhood with our AC unit for over 45 minutes. The dog was growling and charging at people, including myself, getting within four or five feet of me each time it charged me. It backed off from me when I darn near emptied a can of OC spray in its face. 

I gave that dog its fair share of chances. On a spur of the moment idea, the last time it charged me, I firmly stood my ground (with my glock in my hand and the slack pulled out of the trigger) and loudly told it to "SIT!" Imagine my surprise when the dog stopped dead and DID what I told it to! After the dog submitted to my command, the fight went out of it (she was exhausted by that point, and so were we) she was completely submissive and allowed the AC unit to pull the truck over to where I was waiting with her and she just willingly jumped into the truck. 

Animals that are fearful are completely unpredictable. Would I have been wrong if I shot the dog the very FIRST time it charged me in that second instance? Absolutely not. I would have been fully covered if I had decided to pull that trigger, and there were people who later heard the story that told me I should have. Luckily, I did not need to. But that was a risk that I decided to take at that point in time. Other officers are not willing to take that risk, and that does NOT make them wrong for making a different choice.

Things like this happen when people and their animals live in close proximity and dog owners are not responsible and/or do not exhibit common sense. There are many different ways to handle a situation, and until you are on the other side of the badge, you just won't understand that...or you just don't *want* to understand.


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## chano (Aug 18, 2010)

*saw this article today*

...


> October 13, 2010
> *Calif. cops get mandatory dog, wildlife trainingThis comes after two high-profile cases in which officers shot a confused fawn and a barking yellow Labrador*
> By Carolyn Jones
> The San Francisco Chronicle
> ...


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Never said the cops were wrong. All I said is are other things to besides just shooting the dog and killing it(in general, not just talking about this case.). But also, I never said they should never do it, if it at all costs they had to they they should.


You may not have said that they should "never do it" or that the officer was wrong, but your earlier comments (quoted below) suggest exactly that! 




Jessiewessie99 said:


> There are other ways to handle a dog than to just shoot it.





Jessiewessie99 said:


> Because there are, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

Oh for crying out loud, people, hackles down and stop being offended at everything. We may be looking for a kleenex sponsor on this board before long.  Why not...

Bottom line, each situation is different - as you show - and we cannot know if what happened was done in the best possible way or not - because we were not there. 

For those of us who think possibly overkill - we are picturing an 11 year old yellow lab, hobbling up with that hoarse old lady bark. Heart. 

For those of you who think everything was justified - you are seeing the basement door open, alarm going off and an unknown intruder. Head.

Regardless, the department is to be commended for doing all that they are now. 

And the dog owner may think twice before letting another dog out, unsupervised while she is away. Let's hope. Because if that dog had been safely contained...


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lexi said:


> Well to that, I have to say that I find it _*very*_ offensive that people such as yourself (and many others) are so willing to sit back and judge an officer's actions when you haven't got the slightest clue as to what you are talking about, so I guess we are even there.
> 
> I never once implied that shooting dogs was all there was to being a cop. The fact is that sometimes you have to make a hard choice to do something that you don't want to do, something that actually bothers you as you are doing it, but you still have to do your job.
> 
> ...


I ma not judging the cop. Its not that I don't want to understand. All I said was there are other ways(in general). i know animals are fearful and unpredictable. I never said the cop was wrong, I don't know why you keep insisting that. Also I never called the cop a monster. Also I never said you never dealt with an aggressive dog either.

I never said the cop was wrong or a monster. Also I never said that you weren't qualified to defend the officer. You keep insisting that I am saying cops are evil dog killers, when I actually have a lot of respect for cops.Also, don't get the idea that I think the owner was in the right, because I don't. I just said as a general term, there are other ways, and since the PD will be taking courses and reexamining how to deal with dogs and other animals they will probably find other ways.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

In reference to the article, there were only seven dogs shot amongst nearly 700 officers? That is not bad at all. My shift averages at least 4 to 5 dog at large calls a week equaling out to maybe 2 dogs a year that get shot by my department as a whole, that's quite a LOT of contacts that end with dogs not being shot.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Oh for crying out loud, people, hackles down and stop being offended at everything. We may be looking for a kleenex sponsor on this board before long.  Why not...


LOL, Jean! To the contrary, it's debates like these that get my blood pumping and get me fired up! So very entertaining for me in a different way than my "oh I LOVE that pic!" comments I make everyday elsewhere (although I am not knocking my pic posts, you know I'm a picture nut!)



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Bottom line, each situation is different - as you show - and we cannot know if what happened was done in the best possible way or not - because we were not there.
> 
> For those of us who think possibly overkill - we are picturing an 11 year old yellow lab, hobbling up with that hoarse old lady bark. Heart.


Can we add a "bleeding" in front of the Heart? 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> For those of you who think everything was justified - you are seeing the basement door open, alarm going off and an unknown intruder. Head.


I can't afford to think any other way. 



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Regardless, the department is to be commended for doing all that they are now.


Agreed!!! It's fantastic that they are doing this....and I admit that there are cops out there who could be much more sensitive about animal complaints than they are. But in this instance, I just don't think the officer was wrong.



JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> And the dog owner may think twice before letting another dog out, unsupervised while she is away. Let's hope. Because if that dog had been safely contained...


AGREED!!!!!!


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> I ma not judging the cop. Its not that I don't want to understand. All I said was there are other ways(in general). i know animals are fearful and unpredictable. I never said the cop was wrong, I don't know why you keep insisting that. Also I never called the cop a monster. Also I never said you never dealt with an aggressive dog either.
> 
> I never said the cop was wrong or a monster. Also I never said that you weren't qualified to defend the officer. You keep insisting that I am saying cops are evil dog killers, when I actually have a lot of respect for cops.Also, don't get the idea that I think the owner was in the right, because I don't. I just said as a general term, there are other ways, and since the PD will be taking courses and reexamining how to deal with dogs and other animals they will probably find other ways.


I may have been posting at the same time as you, Jessie. See what I posted above a few posts where I quoted some of your earlier posts. 

I am ok with what you just put posted....sorry if I offended you earlier, I usually don't get snippy like that, and I wasn't necessarily meaning to single you out; there were many posters to this thread that I disagreed with. eace:


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Lexi said:


> I may have been posting at the same time as you, Jessie. See what I posted above a few posts where I quoted some of your earlier posts.
> 
> I am ok with what you just put posted....sorry if I offended you earlier, I usually don't get snippy like that, and I wasn't necessarily meaning to single you out; there were many posters to this thread that I disagreed with. eace:


Thats ok. I had to wake up earlier than I normally do and I am a little grouchy and stressed from the past few weeks. I only like to think of all other options before the worst. Sorry if I said anything offensive.


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## just another truck (Jun 7, 2010)

I have not read all of this.. But I do believe ( with out knowing the whole thing ) that the cop could have made a better choice.. If a cop is approaching a house for a B&E, will they be covering the front and back door? IF they hear barking, should they not be looking for crap in the back yard.. might confirm there is a dog there and it belongs. If/when approaching the house.. if the dog is making an aggressive act as you come towards the house, might you wonder how the dog would have reacted to the bad guy? Since an Security company was involved.. wouldnt it make sense to contact the security company in regards to the where abouts of the owner.. They normally have cell phone and work numbers to get ahold of someone..

Are cops always wrong.. no..

are they always right..no

I know there are some officers here, all respect given to them and their jobs, and I will most of the time take the side of an officer. I dont think I agree with the actions this time.


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## JonnyRico (Sep 21, 2010)

"that the cop could have made a better choice"


None of us here will know if there was a "better" choice. We were not there. Many of you will not know what it feels like to have your life in danger. Oakland PD recently lost 4 officers to a single incident. The city of Oakland can be extremely dangerous and the officers cannot afford to be complacent. In the end, the officer has to make a choice to ensure that he is safe, and the public is safe. When responding to a call, where there are so many variables that in a split second, you can be killed... the officer had to make a choice. It is just an unfortunate situation. 
r.i.p. Gloria


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## Hunther's Dad (Mar 13, 2010)

JeanKBBMMMAAN said:


> Oh for crying out loud, people, hackles down and stop being offended at everything. We may be looking for a kleenex sponsor on this board before long.  Why not...
> 
> Bottom line, each situation is different - as you show - and we cannot know if what happened was done in the best possible way or not - because we were not there.
> 
> ...


How about locking this thread, then? It contributes nothing to this board except giving people a way to act up with no consequences.


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## Lexi (May 12, 2010)

Hunther's Dad said:


> How about locking this thread, then? It contributes nothing to this board except giving people a way to act up with no consequences.


Ooooh....Jean's gonna be busy locking threads all over this board if she uses that as a criteria to lock threads. 

With all due respect, I think that people haven't been too bad on this thread. I even apologized to Jessie for getting snippy with her earlier, because I WAS being a bit of a smartass. 

The original post that set me off on this thread was the one pages earlier that said that officers being "aggressive" on their property should be "shot." I think a lively debate is fun every once in awhile, but that particular comment was way out of line. 

It's not been too bad lately on the thread...and I think the thread has pretty much run its course...for me anyway....now watch someone say something else that sets me off! :laugh: 

I am glad that the SPCA is going to be offering continuing education classes on animal welfare to LEOs. I wish that similar classes were offered everywhere, both for the increased welfare of animals and to increase public confidence in the decisions LEOs make out on the road.


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Now if it were like that one dude who just shot a that husky at the dog park for no good reason, then he lost all my respect. 

I know a few people who were lost in the line of duty, and have feared for my life(not because of a robber).


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## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

Jessiewessie99 said:


> Now if it were like that one dude who just shot a that husky at the dog park for no good reason, then he lost all my respect.
> 
> I know a few people who were lost in the line of duty, and have feared for my life(not because of a robber).


Are there actually any news regarding that case?


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## Jessiewessie99 (Mar 6, 2009)

Mrs.K said:


> Are there actually any news regarding that case?


I am not sure what the update is of that case, but I just used it as s refrence when I meant that some cops shouldn't be cops.


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