# A humbling experience - something for folks to consider when giving training advice



## NancyJ

Wanting to be mentored in the use of an ecollar, I spent a few hours this Saturday with a police trainer my team respects. He is responsible for training the K9 officers in his department.

My main problem is that 2.5 year old Beau will just blow me off when offlead at a distance, is not outing the toy, and in general can be a bit too wild to deal with properly at home. He is a lot more of a challenging dog to handle than I have had before. He is also an incredible hunting machine. Not one iota of problems with him being aggressive toward me or others or any nerve issues.

Now, I have had dogs in my life since my childhood in the 60s, with them being GSDs since 1985. I have trained and certified two operational cadaver dogs, Grim who was certified annually 2008-2012 and Beau 2012-present. The certification is a combination of offlead obedience control and scent work. I trained Cyra as a live find dog before that. My neighbors are always amazed at how much better Beau is behaved than their own dogs.

Fast forward. I go in and take the words that are hard to hear but must be heard: 

1) You are not being consistent in corrections. Variable reinforcement may work for reward but not for correction.
2) You are not being fair with your corrections. Your dog is warning you he could come up the lead if you push too hard, because he is a soft dog, not a hard dog. Boy did me and my teammate miss that one. So he is taking away my prong and this Friday we are fitting him for a nylon slip collar. [he does not like the kind with the clip]
3) He is upping my standards for precision obedience which he expects. The NAPWDA obedience control test is intended to demonstrate offlead control (heel at different speeds, long down, drop on recall etc.) and ours is good enough to "pass" but we need to tighten it up particularly with Beau.
4) Even on searching, he pointed out some subtle things I am doing with my body language to cue the dog [mind you the hides were totally unknown to me, but changes in my body language while he was working odor]. And Beau is keying in on that body language and looking for it.
5) He showed me some more technique on outing and he will do more on Friday. He does not like having the dog down but wants me to have the dog high so his front legs cant hit the ground and give him the sit command. He has to let go to sit. Correction for noncompliance. With the dog in the down, he is not as clear what the correction is for because he IS down. Then the return to bite the tug is (for now) immediate. We are also switching to a harder stiffer tug (high pressure heater hose with a dowel in it).

Now he does support the use of an ecollar for us, and all his unit dogs use one, but we have a good bit to remedial work before we start using it.

Thought long and hard about posting this but I often see folks giving advice which could mess up a dog they have not even seen when it is clear they, themselves, don't know what they are talking about. I try to stay away from giving training advice and recommend people find a good trainer and only give general SAR advice. 

Both Beau and I came back from our day looking at each other like "what just happened?" - it was surreal and hard to explain. Basically, he has been pushing for position (rank) and we are putting me back in control - and nothing he did was harsh or cruel but it will change our relationship. So much to learn. A lot of stuff I already knew intellectually that has not been making its way properly down the lead.

Find a good trainer is all I can say! One on one. Don't take the hard stuff personally. If you want to be the best you can be, you have to check the ego at the door.


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## Sunflowers

Wow. Eye opening, for sure.
The more I learn here, the more I realize how much I still need to learn.


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## David Winners

Beau is going to help you become a great handler Nancy. With the right guidance, which it seems you have found, the connection he has with you will become a really special thing. I'm excited for you. It's a double edged sword though. You can cue him easily because of it as well. 

When I have a handler with this problem, I tell them to totally ignore the dog while working. I make them talk to me while the dog is working. Control can be added later, after independence is strong in the dog.

I'm glad to hear you are coming off the prong and going to the e-collar, especially if the prong is causing conflict. I'd hate to see him come up the leash, as it would set you back
(in your mind, not his) and would create more conflict between you.

To add to what sounds like really sound advice:

Consistent corrections can often be far lower in intensity because the message is far more clear to the dog. As he matures, he will need clear and precise communication to allow him the freedom you need while maintaining the control you need. I love the part about variable corrections not working like variable rewards. That's gold.


Do you do any kind of training to increase obedience to odor?


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## Baillif

Yup. You work really hard trying to learn about training and practicing skills and think oh I'm gonna show this great trainer I know my stuff and next thing you know he's like what the **** are you doing that looks like crap. There's always a better trainer out there.

Some stuff I've been told before

Stop training like a girl 
Your dog did great you on the other hand are a mess
Are you trying to kill his drive on purpose or are you really that clueless?
Stop just stop!


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## David Winners

Baillif said:


> Yup. You work really hard trying to learn about training and practicing skills and think oh I'm gonna show this great trainer I know my stuff and next thing you know he's like what the **** are you doing that looks like crap. There's always a better trainer out there.
> 
> Some stuff I've been told before
> 
> Stop training like a girl
> Your dog did great you on the other hand are a mess
> Are you trying to kill his drive on purpose or are you really that clueless?
> Stop just stop!


LOL... Kenny Licklider, owner of VLK, makes trainers with 30 years of experience feel like newbies all the time. It's always great when he comes out because he always points out the stuff you need to work on. It's humbling, and usually embarrassing, but leads to you being a better handler and trainer.

That dude has a tail, I swear he does.


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## NancyJ

It is funny the subtle things an experienced trainer can pick up on. I like the police (the trainers - I am sure some of the K9 handlers are on the same learning curve as I) because it is real. There are real consequences if their dog bites improperly or is not reliable with detection work. We really *thought* he was a hard independent dog. I guess, maybe, he is *rank* dog but I don't know. I think I don't know anything right now . But that is ok. I certainly know how teammates feel when we have them take a dog back to the foundation. 

Fortunately, I have not had issues with him false alerting, perhaps, by doing the things I know we do to mess our dogs up (like standing, staring at the distracter etc.) but I think dogs are so good at reading body language who knows? My crutch may be that I have been good enough at reading his body language that most of the time I can tell the difference between "interesting odor" and "source odor". 

We have done speed drills on our own where someone is behind you with a long line, you work a row of boxes and keep moving and the dog needs to indicate quickly and stay with source while you keep moving but it has been awhile and I was going to ask him about those. I have not done these drills with Beau but have worked the wall enough to see the value in primary reward. Will definitely work with him on all these things.

Right now he is very independent with his searching  and does not look to me while working an area scanning for odor, but does look to me when the time comes to make a final decision. Subtle subtle subtle little changes in my body language the average civilian would not notice. Does that make sense?


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## Wolfgeist

I really love this post, thank you for sharing with us.

Absolutely must be humble about dog training, and your own dogs. Taking good advice without letting it wound your ego - absolutely check your ego at the door. How else can you grow? I have no issue saying I am a novice - I am, and from there I can learn and grow and become stronger from whatever advice and truth is handed to me. I feel sorry for those who cannot take criticism, cannot be humble, cannot be honest... they will never grow.


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## NancyJ

The dog is so cued into our body language. They read us better than other people do, ya know?

Right now I am still in a "whoa" mindset. Guess I am soft and have not fully recovered from the correction. Shifting around paradigms some. A big challenge with trusting a trainer is knowing the quality of the person you are working with - but I know him to be well respected by the "right" people and have enough book learning to say..the things he said made sense


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## Wolfgeist

jocoyn said:


> The dog is so cued into our body language. They read us better than other people do, ya know?
> 
> Right now I am still in a "whoa" mindset. Guess I am soft and have not fully recovered from the correction. Shifting around paradigms some. A big challenge with trusting a trainer is knowing the quality of the person you are working with - but I know him to be well respected by the "right" people and have enough book learning to say..the things he said made sense


What a phenomenal opportunity for you to learn and grow! Please keep us updated on your progress and whatever tips you get!


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## David Winners

I train dogs to ignore me on odor. I start with box drills, and a leash on a harness. Once the dog finals, I apply rearward pressure to the harness right before I reward. I start to the rear because opposition reflex drives the dog toward the hide, setting them up for success. If the dog leaves, just give a quick nope and then back to search.

I increase the distraction incrementally with the leash until the dog will not leave the hide under leash pressure in any direction. After they get it, you can drag the dog off the hide and it will not take it's eyes off it, and will return immediately and final.

After the leash distraction work is solid, I move to voice distraction. I start small and then get bigger as the dog can handle it. The only thing I won't do is proof against recall.

If you need a more indepth description, let me know.

I would also run this by the trainer to see what he thinks, but I'm sure you would do that anyways.


What I see after doing this is that the dog will intentionally ignore me when on odor, on or off leash, no matter what.


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## NancyJ

Thanks for the insights! We hope to train with him once a week and will ask him about that. I do know he really liked how he was scanning and his focus. I am comfortable that he can do all the scenarios in the test but this is foundational stuff but we need to go back to foundation on these things! 

I lucked out with Grim no thanks to me because he had a lot of foundation before I got him and training him was more about scenarios and experience than foundation work. He was a demo dog for Dan Reiter and in some of the videos (K9 Grim). Grim was a nice dog, and passed a screening evaluation by two trainers, one NAPWDA, one USPCA and did well as a cadaver dog but I had to be careful about not cuing him as well. He was soft but would *never* have challenged me.


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## Freestep

This is why I rarely give training advice over the internet. Even when an actual trainer gives people advice in person, and *shows* them how to do it, people get it wrong... no way would I want to be responsible for someone taking what I say the wrong way or out of context! That's why I simply tell people to find a professional trainer, so that the responsibility can be on them. 

It's always good to get a fresh perspective when training your dog. There are always things you aren't aware of until someone points them out to you. Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.


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## Sunflowers

But if I hadn't gotten training advice from this forum, I would be a mess, not to mention my GSD.
Yeah, I am a pet person and know nothing. But I learned enough to be an OK dog owner. At least, most of the time, LOL.

Are you guys saying no one should ever give any training advice, not even basic? Not everyone has access to good GSD trainers.


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## NancyJ

I think to some extent it depends on what dog you have what goals you have. Certainly a lot of advice we have on raising puppies etc. is time tested and true.

I think when you are dealing with a problem situation is often where you need the eyes of someone who can see what you are doing wrong and there is still the danger of taking the wrong advice which is why when someone jumps in and recommends something that is so obviously wrong, so many people jump in and say 'hold off' get help.


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## slade

"5) He showed me some more technique on outing and he will do more on Friday. He does not like having the dog down but wants me to have the dog high so his front legs cant hit the ground and give him the sit command. He has to let go to sit. Correction for noncompliance. With the dog in the down, he is not as clear what the correction is for because he IS down."



Thank you for sharing this- I am having trouble also with my 1 year old not wanting to out the toy. 

So you do not correct for not outing- and you do correct for not sitting? In which direction do you correct?

Thanks!


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## NancyJ

It has been a long run for me but a 1 year old may be at a different place than a 2.5 year old. In the approach he is using which I can go back and realize they do use is they do not use a separate out command. They tell the dog sit, the dog must release to sit and is corrected for that and in the beginning the reward is immediate. I am going to spend 30 minutes on one one next Friday so I can perfect it with him. Between now and then I am not playing with it except for our Wed training with another police group (he says the trainer there knows the timing and to discuss with her).


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## David Taggart

IMHO, ecollar would waste your time, unless you like to fiddle with it.
1) Try to use nothing but your voice for reward, tell him in a sweet voice (different from your commanding tone) that you are pleased. I'd use "slowing down method" for correction - that is something no dog would like: stop every time if he pulls too hard, try to do everything slower than he's got used to, I think you are pressing on speed.
2) I'm absolutely sure that prong makes dogs nervous, and makes them agressive on the long run. A nylon slip collar would make him pull even harder - it works as a natural strangler the animal want to free from, you would bruise your hands. What you need - is a collar which would make the most impact on his neck - and that is a really wide collar, 5 inch wide with a a doubble buckle. I highly recommend EzyDog Double-Up Adjustable Collar
it works better than prong.
3) Slow down 1 millionth a step. Swallow valerian if you cannot.
4) That is a result of prong use. Too nervous. 
5) Pay attention to the distance between you, your dog and the decoy. Make it slightly shorter, nobody would notice it. Giving your dog more space in between makes him behaving freely, he must sit with outing, I believe that is the problem. You, probably, need a few private lessons without any distructions. again - slow down half a second.Your dog is in a constant "stand by" of your commands, on one hand that is good, on the other - not so. He needs a bit more self-motivation, be more initiative, that's why he doesn't go for the next bite immediately.


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## NancyJ

David, I am past loose leash walking. We do not have a problem with the dog pulling into the lead and he understands all of the obedience commands which are called out by the evaluator during a test in random order (sit, down, heel, recall, drop on recall, fast speed, slow speed, stay, return to heel from a sit with you walking away). He wants to see more precision in the above. I am not sure why at this point but he may have a reason.

I have used prongs for years and do not believe it makes them aggressive. If a dog so inclined perceives an "unfair" correction it may make him redirect up the lead. I think that is understanding the specific dog and not an issue with the tool per-se. Same dog can also use a prong but the correction requires a level of finesse I need to work on but if I don't need the tool for this dog, well why use it.

We are not doing bite work and don't understand the "that's why he doesn't go for the next bite immediately" ... the reward for outing is an immediate opportunity to bite the toy. We went from a tug to a hard rubber hose because it does not have the same flex and is easier to make dead. There is no problem getting him TO bite. 

"IMHO", I guess that is the point. I know I am going to be working with a person whose career is training police K9 handlers and is highly respected in our region. We may/may not use the e-collar but for offlead reliability in hazardous terrain I am thinking it really is an appropriate tool. This is a working dog who has to be reliable offlead in areas where junkyard dogs are on chains, alligators may be in the water (when we go to the lowcountry), wildlife abound and cars don't slow down.

Edit: I was on two searches with Grim where alligator fear raised its ugly head. One where he jumped into a drain ditch near the coast and complied but could not scale the bank. You would not believe how fast a chain of firefighers scrambled to pull him out by making a human chain. The other when he jumped off a boat when we could not turn it around fast enough to get to the odor......on that search another dog went in and the handler saw a "v" heading towards the dog and was able to get him out. I never used an ecollar with Grim. He was so compliant that once he had a fawn jump up and take off right under his nose and it was too much for him and he wanted to take chase....he stopped so fast when I called him that he almost fell over. We are working to get Beau to that level.


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## gsdsar

I feel for you. It's very humbling to be brought "to task" by someone about your dog. 

Years ago, I was having some basic manners issues with my male Ike. We went to a seminar with some very notable trainers, Sheila Booth for one. He was taken by the seminar giver and came up the leash at her. Hard. 

I was told after the seminar that he was unsuitable for SAR work, dangerous and should be rehomed to a different type of working home. I drive home crying. I cried for 2 days. There was no way I could rehome him. I loved him. What I thought was just annoying turned out to be a serious issue that I was ill equipped to handle.

I found an amazing SchH trainer, 2 hours away and paid out the ying yang. He set me straight. My entire relationship with my dog changed. I remember after training with him I took my dog to a weekend training and let him sleep on the bed. I told the trainer this and his words, still humble me, were ( if you don't plan on following my advice don't waste your money coming here). 

Any way. Things worked out. Ike turned into an amazing partner, stable everywhere a true representative of the breed. But I needed the wake up call. 

Glad you have found a great trainer to work with. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## NancyJ

It is hard to meter the correction so. Actually the ONLY time I have had the growl is for outing the toy and he has not gone up the lead at me. It seems to be a bit closer to happening though when someone ELSE, not me, corrects him.

Not sure what exactly causes this but otherwise he is a delightful, if headstrong, dog and is fine with all kinds of people and animals. He is not in the least aggressive or fearful. It is just with the correction.

I know they are skilled in dealing with it though and will help me manage. Glad to have the wake up call earlier than later. I think he is the dog who will need a lot of structure in his life (he pretty much already has that) and does not get the opportunity to "take an inch"


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## slade

" Actually the ONLY time I have had the growl is for outing the toy and he has not gone up the lead at me. 
Not sure what exactly causes this but otherwise he is a delightful, if headstrong, dog and is fine with all kinds of people and animals. He is not in the least aggressive or fearful. It is just with the correction."

This describes my boy to a T, jocoyn! I would love to understand what causes this behavior! My boy is headstrong too but super friendly and just full of himself! I will be interested to hear how your boy does with this new method - keep us posted!


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## gsdsar

I know where I went wonky with my boy. Total lack of correction for anything. I fell into the trap of " let him be pushy, don't tell him no" crud. When he got bigger and I tried to put structure on him, he pretty much said " WTF" 

Once he learned coming up the leash got a reaction, he started trying it with me. He actually scared me a few times. But he had not done it before, or more correctly, I had not recognized it for what it was before. 

Sounds like you have a good handle on it. I am positive your boy will tow the line quickly. In the end Ike was the best dog ever. My heart dog. He was an amazing SAR dog. I am sure your boy will be as well. 


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## NancyJ

He is amazing. We cleared our first NAPWDA cert at 15 months. I had just gone for the experience with him, really the seminar. He had never been on a rubble pile and that was the toughest but he did it without me going up with him and they had put the hides up about 12 feet. 

Of course as he matures we have gone through several waves of control issues but I think we will be working with this trainer for awhile to come and then I will get back in the swing of training at least twice a month with LE and ask them to help me keep an eye on things....I had some down time with a damaged tendon in my foot where mostly what I did with him was throw balls and do small stuff around the house.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Great thread Nancy, and thank you SO much for this:



jocoyn said:


> 5) He showed me some more technique on outing and he will do more on Friday. He does not like having the dog down but wants me to have the dog high so his front legs cant hit the ground and give him the sit command. He has to let go to sit.


I tried this today at flyball practice with Halo, and it was like magic! I had trouble with getting her interested in a tug when she had the tennis ball back when we first started, so I made a tug with Orbee balls on it that's so high in value that she'll drop the ball to grab the tug at the end of her run. But the new problem became getting her to let go of the tug so we could line up for the next run. A couple of times I had to wait a few seconds for her to let go, but the rest of the time I was able to get her to sit and drop the tug. Yay! :happyboogie:


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## NancyJ

YAY!!. 

I am still going to have to spend more time on it but I have let the behavior go a bit too long and he REALLY wants to tug. At least one thing I have done right is when it is mine he does not grab it without being released with the word "free".

I think what I was doing wrong before was not rewarding him with the tug quickly enough - Need to build that "wait" time up slowly. He also showed me to put my leg forward so that he could either wrap it or push off with his front paws. Holding his weight with the tug up too high for him to sit is definitely not easy.

The other thing is the less flexible tug is easier to make go "dead". We were using the 15" one they sell at Leerburg for difficult to out dogs but it is too flexible......


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## David Winners

How long are your tug sessions between outs?

When teaching the out, or correcting it, I keep it short. I will swing back and forth 2-3 times max and then out. Many quick repetitions but low key. Sometimes a dog will really stick if you tug too long, but they will release faster if they can't get really zoned in on the fight.

LOL... just brainstorming here


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## NancyJ

It was short-like you said, sit tug tug sit tug tug sit tug tug...really fast.

He said not to do any work with it until we get together Friday and he is sure I have it down properly. There really is a bit of technique to it. This is one of those things where you know what to do, have seen it on youtube but I did not have the timing right, did not reward quickly enough and did not do it frequently enough before trying to extend the time. And having it to where he has to out to sit is icing on the cake.

Question --- he loves to tug and when me or anyone else throws his reward toy at source he barrels at me full speed and jumps on me pushing the toy in my hands for a good fight.....I will have to ask about it as it is part of the reward for him...if I can get the "out" is that too much?


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## Jmoore728

Baillif said:


> Yup. You work really hard trying to learn about training and practicing skills and think oh I'm gonna show this great trainer I know my stuff and next thing you know he's like what the **** are you doing that looks like crap. There's always a better trainer out there.
> 
> Some stuff I've been told before
> 
> Stop training like a girl
> Your dog did great you on the other hand are a mess
> Are you trying to kill his drive on purpose or are you really that clueless?
> Stop just stop!


I can only imagine the list of things I will be hearing.....Being a novice, how would I know who the great trainers are. I'm putting tons of time in, money, etc, I don't want to eff this up....


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## Jmoore728

David Winners said:


> I train dogs to ignore me on odor. I start with box drills, and a leash on a harness. Once the dog finals, I apply rearward pressure to the harness right before I reward. I start to the rear because opposition reflex drives the dog toward the hide, setting them up for success. If the dog leaves, just give a quick nope and then back to search.
> 
> I increase the distraction incrementally with the leash until the dog will not leave the hide under leash pressure in any direction. After they get it, you can drag the dog off the hide and it will not take it's eyes off it, and will return immediately and final.
> 
> After the leash distraction work is solid, I move to voice distraction. I start small and then get bigger as the dog can handle it. The only thing I won't do is proof against recall.
> 
> If you need a more indepth description, let me know.
> 
> I would also run this by the trainer to see what he thinks, but I'm sure you would do that anyways.
> 
> 
> What I see after doing this is that the dog will intentionally ignore me when on odor, on or off leash, no matter what.


I have SO SO SO much to learn....mind boggling, just training in general... Then reading this stuff, wow...


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## David Winners

jocoyn said:


> Question --- he loves to tug and when me or anyone else throws his reward toy at source he barrels at me full speed and jumps on me pushing the toy in my hands for a good fight.....I will have to ask about it as it is part of the reward for him...if I can get the "out" is that too much?


I don't use tug as a reward until a dog is doing just what you describe. I want the reward to be the the act of tugging with me, not the object itself. The out will come and will soon be a non issue. I think your self evaluation is probably pretty accurate. Moving to the out too soon, and progressing too quickly is really common. These dogs tend to stick. 

You may need to move to corrections again before it's done, as he might test you at some point. There is a systematic way to implement these corrections that will help to keep them to a minimum and can help you get through them quickly.

The mechanics of tug look simple, until you try and do everything at once, at full speed, especially with a leash in your hand. Getting the timing right is tricky at first.

Try it with a mal :wild:


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## OriginalWacky

One of the reasons I really like to take my dogs through classes (basic ones, but not quite as basic as petsmart et al) is because a good trainer can help me refine what *I* can do better as a trainer. Sure, I know I can train a dog to my own expectations all on my own, I've done it with several dogs. But now that I'm wanting to do MORE with my dogs, I can certainly use the extra perspective to help me be a better trainer, and learn more about various methods and techniques to keep in my 'toolbox' for training. 

I know I have about 9 billion things to learn, and am very hopeful I can get the chance to go to some seminars and such when I get a puppy so I can get into some much more advanced training than I've done in the past. I'm actually thinking that it might be good for me to get some schooling and maybe become a trainer myself - if only I can manage to deal with the idiot owners that are out there.


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## Jmoore728

gsdsar said:


> I feel for you. It's very humbling to be brought "to task" by someone about your dog.
> 
> Years ago, I was having some basic manners issues with my male Ike. We went to a seminar with some very notable trainers, Sheila Booth for one. He was taken by the seminar giver and came up the leash at her. Hard.
> 
> I was told after the seminar that he was unsuitable for SAR work, dangerous and should be rehomed to a different type of working home. I drive home crying. I cried for 2 days. There was no way I could rehome him. I loved him. What I thought was just annoying turned out to be a serious issue that I was ill equipped to handle.
> 
> I found an amazing SchH trainer, 2 hours away and paid out the ying yang. He set me straight. My entire relationship with my dog changed. I remember after training with him I took my dog to a weekend training and let him sleep on the bed. I told the trainer this and his words, still humble me, were ( if you don't plan on following my advice don't waste your money coming here).
> 
> Any way. Things worked out. Ike turned into an amazing partner, stable everywhere a true representative of the breed. But I needed the wake up call.
> 
> Glad you have found a great trainer to work with.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


So when you do find one of these trainers, is it usually a weekly visit? What kind of prices can be expected weekly? I'm sure it can get pricey, and I'm fine with that. My pup is only 18.5 weeks old, just doing marker training, going slow and being positive


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## JakodaCD OA

I think having an ubiased 'eye' can really be eye opening for us. 

I've been knocked down a peg or two at times when it came to my agility dog and yes it can be humbling!!!


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## onyx'girl

> 1) You are not being consistent in corrections.
> 2) You are not being fair with your corrections.


I've heard this more times than I can count. Thankfully my dog is biddable and forgiving. I've been "humbled" so much I needed work on my confidence as a handler. 
Getting knocked down is great when needed, and getting supported is just as important for success.


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## NancyJ

Jmoore, I will say the police get a dog trained up a LOT quicker than civilians because it is a daily thing (and I think starting a new green dog is almost a full time job) and then they must do no less than 4 hours of maintenance training a week. They do it a lot they see a lot of dogs and the incoming dogs are in some regards less variable than SAR where anything and everything shows up. We have tried to cut variability some by requiring incoming team dogs to pass a prescreening test.

The average search and rescue trainer fumbles around for a couple of years with a fist dog. A good team with a good training program can cut that drastically, but I think you make those biggest mistakes on the "first" dog, then do much better on subsequent dogs....and then still get knocked down. I have seen seasoned handlers in tears during certification testing based on some comment the master trainer / evaluator made. 

We spend a lot out of pocket for training, get some of it free (like the trainings we do with a multi county K9 unit) and expect to pay for one on one (normally not with someone who would either certify or deploy us - conflict of interest). We, like most teams out there, also apply for grant money to help cover these things. 

Certification is the very basic level which says "you have the components". Then the savvy new handler is going to go to seminars and learn about setting up scenarios to mimic real life. The team will train based on searches that became "learning experiences" The police and trainers are usually exceedingly good with foundation stuff but other SAR handlers are the ones (if you do SAR) to help with scenario based training. Most SAR seminars will be $300-$400 for a three day weekend plus food and lodging.

Put it all in a shaker and I would say $2-$3K a year for training (SAR) can't speak to sport.


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## brembo

Just to put a perspective on your recent paradigm shift-

A trainer sees thousands of dogs in the course of working. He sees thousands of handlers. If the trainer is worth a flip he has categorized the most common types and knows how and what to look for. He saw your dog and you and even before you demonstrated ANYTHING he was waiting for what he knew was probably your shortcomings and strengths. Once he saw what his years of experience told him, he was able to hone in and offer up the goods in a hurry. Experts can do that sort of thing.

Now with you, it's just YOU and the dog. Your bud, an animal you have vested interest in. Small things slip, humans are pretty forgetful, our brains process so much info all the time things slip through the cracks. The trainer however (again if he/she is good) sees the small stuff quick, fast and in a hurry because of the lack of attachment. 

Maybe do some training wherein a fellow handler watches you, and when you fail to be consistent or offer up some sort of body language that might be a que, have them mark it for you. 

I guess my point here is that it's not a lack of knowing how to do what you need to do. It's not poor handling either. In wanting the dog to succeed your basic human instincts are betraying you some. It does not have to be much at all because GSDs are the Ferraris of the dog world when it comes to doing what they think their owners want. For the dog to be 100%, the handler has to be 100% and not "taint the results". Humans are HORRIBLE at that. It's tough to be a robot when your pal is out there working his tail off to do what he's been trained to do and you want nothing more than to see him nail it.


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## LouCastle

jocoyn said:


> My main problem is that 2.5 year old Beau will just blow me off when offlead at a distance, is not outing the toy, and in general can be a bit too wild to deal with properly at home. He is a lot more of a challenging dog to handle than I have had before. He is also an incredible hunting machine. Not one iota of problems with him being aggressive toward me or others or any nerve issues.


To me these are signs of an unbalanced relationship with the dog. 


Fast forward. I go in and take the words that are hard to hear but must be heard: 

1) You are not being consistent in corrections. * Variable reinforcement may work for reward but not for correction. * [/quote] 

I agree. Variable reinforcement has been shown to improve behavior. But not being consistent with corrections will hurt it. You get a dog who will gamble that THIS TIME he's not going to get corrected and can do what he wants. The Ecollar allows you to correct EVERY TIME. 



jocoyn said:


> 2) You are not being fair with your corrections. Your dog is warning you he could come up the lead if you push too hard, because he is a soft dog, not a hard dog. Boy did me and my teammate miss that one. So he is taking away my prong and this Friday we are fitting him for a nylon slip collar. [he does not like the kind with the clip]


Being unfair will get you bitten faster than just about anything with most dogs. Few dogs do it because they're hard. Many will do it because they're soft and you put them into survival with too harsh corrections. They think that they have to bite you to survive. 



jocoyn said:


> 3) He is upping my standards for precision obedience which he expects. The NAPWDA obedience control test is intended to demonstrate offlead control (heel at different speeds, long down, drop on recall etc.) and ours is good enough to "pass" but we need to tighten it up particularly with Beau.


I'd be especially careful with this. The more precise OB you demand from a SAR or LE K−9 the less focus he'll have on his searching, particularly if you use an Ecollar harshly. (I know that you don't, but for those who do ...) A dog only has so much attention. If you demand precise OB he'll tend to focus on you, rather than on his work, since he's looking for cues from you. I tend to be very lax on OB with SAR dogs, demanding only enough precision to pass certification and no more. Precise OB looks very pretty but SAR is not about looking pretty. 

I'd also be careful with this because many LE K−9 handler and trainers think that this is how you establish dominance and control over the dog. I used to think that too but then found much better way of doing it. Using OB for this means using corrections to most of these folks and corrections tend to focus the dog on the handler and away from the scent work. There are far better ways to get the correct relationship that are natural and don't affect the work or defocus the dog. 



jocoyn said:


> 4) Even on searching, he pointed out some subtle things I am doing with my body language to cue the dog [mind you the hides were totally unknown to me, but changes in my body language while he was working odor]. And Beau is keying in on that body language and looking for it.


It's a real art NOT to cue a dog, even if you don't know where the hide is. You "THINK that you know where it is" or you "have a feeling" and that can cue the dog. 



jocoyn said:


> 5) He showed me some more technique on outing and he will do more on Friday. He does not like having the dog down but wants me to have the dog high so his front legs cant hit the ground and give him the sit command. He has to let go to sit. Correction for noncompliance.


Another place to be very careful. I don't think I understand what he wants you to do with the whole _"having the dog high so his front legs can't hit the ground"_ thing, but difficulty in outing a dog off a reward (I don't use them any more) is more a sign of a misunderstood relationship between dog and handler, than an OB issue. Taking a reinforcement away introduces massive amounts of conflict and conflict leads to confusion and that can easily lead to a bite. If nothing else, confusion causes unreliability. 



jocoyn said:


> Now he does support the use of an ecollar for us, and all his unit dogs use one, but we have a good bit to remedial work before we start using it.


Another place to be very careful. Many LE K−9 trainers are using very high levels of stim to get compliance. They think that OB is a separate endeavor than searching. In reality, the two are inextricably linked. They are the same thing, but few trainers understand this. 

Think of the efficiency of a wild dog on the hunt. He does not get a command to sit or down but he does these things as they are necessary for the success of the hunt. He is 100% pure hunting animal and not distracted by commands from the outside.


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## David Winners

Thanks for giving your opinion Lou. I find your e-collar methods effective and your explanation them very comprehensive.

I'm interested in a couple things and would appreciate some more details.

The first thing that really stuck out was that you don't use rewards. Do you mean rewards for obedience type behaviors, or in all training? I also take it that you are not excluding praise. I would be very interested in how you train detection without the use of a primary reward, e.g. food or toy. If I remember correctly, you used to use a rag for reward, but I may be mistaken.

Something else is the correlation of the dog sticking on the out with a relationship problem and not an obedience issue. I see this sometimes when a dog is definitely in conflict with the handler, but I have also seen it in teams that in all other instances have a very good relationship, but the dog has had some possessiveness built up (sometimes encouraged) through training methods.


David Winners


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## NancyJ

These are good things for me to hear going into this. I know low stim works so I have no intention of using other than low stim......

I completely hear and acknowledge the inconsistency comment as well as the soft dog comment, which verifies what he said. He put hardness on a 1-10 scale and said he was about a 5. As for now, I don't have issues with prong corrections other than with the toy but I imagine there the issue is both "not understanding the request' and because he won't out, my taking the correction to an unfair level. Actually we are making good strides in the approach and I think my issue was not giving it back to him quickly enough and playing too much with it when I did...and then not properly building the duration.

I have found that some obedience before working him does, in fact, help him focus during searching as it centers him but I have no desire for developing super precision and will take that into account. To me, the most significant things are "don't pull on the lead" "stay" and "drop on recall". Interesting, I know the IRO rules ask for that level of precision and we have had arguments on this forum on the level of obedience required for a SAR dog.


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## NancyJ

Did some more outs today and AFTER the last release I stroked him on the cheek, told him he is a good boy and gave him a treat. Maybe not necessary but he does make good eye contact of long duration and I think that is good. It is going very well. 

After this and the other thread I think I have a good distraction scenario. We train at one place where both sides of a tall chain link fence surrounds a lot. 

I am going have a teammate play fetch with his dog on the other side. The dog running after a ball should be very distracting..we can work recalls on the long line slowly moving him closer to the fence as thresholds allow. When we get solid at that I can do the same with setting up hides. ..... Well, I think that is a good scenario. 

Having to box up the Dogtra and send it in. The battery replacement helped the issue with it cutting off but not the issue with stim inconsistency and performance range.

I think this fellow will be fair. That fact that he pulled me off too hard a correction indicates to me speaks volumes.


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## jafo220

I try to enter instruction with a totally open mind. It helps me focus on what the instructor is telling me. I don't take corrections as belittling but as just what they are, corrections. Unless they are being verbally abusive or insulting.

I myself don't have enough knowledge to have an ego either.:crazy:

I have been becoming quite frustrated lately as my training has been slipping the past few weeks due to work dominating over my time with Cruz. It's starting to show also. I got Cruz this time last year. He's not my first GSD, but the first one with this type of temperament. He is a hand full. I signed for training classes on Saturdays so it would not interfere with work through the week as I do two to three double shifts a week. Work has decided they need me on Saturdays now whether they really need me or not. So I have signed up and paid for classes that I cannot attend. Really pisses me off. When we got Cruz this time last year we decided we would handle this dog differently and do "something" with him. Not just have him as a pet. We wanted more this time around. We finally found a great trainer, and have laid out a pathway with the goal being some type of SAR. But again, work has set this goal backwards a little and it's really frustrating. 

I do agree with what your saying about training advice on the forum. I have given advice, but it's mostly crate or poo training advice. With reactionary problems, or in some cases medical etc. , I try to refrain from posting. If I do post advice, it's always what has worked for me and exactly how I was instructed by a certified trainer. Every ones situation is different and not all dogs are alike. But the owners asking for the advice here should also head your warning of "taking" advice on training off a forum. It's not real difficult sorting through who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't if you spend any time on the forum.


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## Nigel

jocoyn said:


> 5) He does not like having the dog down but wants me to have the dog high so his front legs cant hit the ground and give him the sit command. He has to let go to sit. Correction for noncompliance. With the dog in the down, he is not as clear what the correction is for because he IS down. Then the return to bite the tug is (for now) immediate. We are also switching to a harder stiffer tug (high pressure heater hose with a dowel in it).


I would like to understand this, I'm not sure what I'm picturing is correct.


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## NancyJ

So far I can't find a good video but it is time tested that the dog releases the tug for the game to continue; it was just fine tuning by changing things up a little. I will have to see if I can find something.


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## LouCastle

David Winners said:


> Thanks for giving your opinion Lou. I find your e-collar methods effective and your explanation them very comprehensive.


Thanks for the kind words David. 



David Winners said:


> The first thing that really stuck out was that you don't use rewards. Do you mean rewards for obedience type behaviors, or in all training? I also take it that you are not excluding praise. I would be very interested in how you train detection without the use of a primary reward, e.g. food or toy. If I remember correctly, you used to use a rag for reward, but I may be mistaken.


I'll start out by answering your questions and then go long ... lol. 

I don't use rewards of any kind any more either for OB or for searching. That includes praise. Well, I'll be honest, I can't seem to stop giving praise, but it's a human need, rather than for the benefit of the dog or the work. For SAR and detection work, I use a towel, but it's not a reward. 

I'm using an entirely new paradigm for all of my work now, one developed by my good friend Donn Yarnall. Donn was the head trainer for LAPD's patrol K−9's for about 20 years. Before that he founded the LAPD detection K−9 unit that works at the airport. In the patrol unit he averaged about 1,400 finds/year. When you are doing that volume of work, you really learn what works and what does not. He's tapped into using the dog's drives directly, rather than indirectly as almost the rest of the world does, with OC (Operant Conditioning). To use this system one much have a good understanding of the various drives that make a dog, a dog. Primary among them for this work is prey drive, but it's not the most powerful drive at work. Most people don't realize the importance of rank drive and how it affects everything that a dog does, much more than any other drive. 

Don't misunderstand, OC can give very good results, but it's very dependent on how good the handler/trainer is. Even if you (this is the generic "you.") have an excellent prospect if the handler/trainer is not very good, and it takes many year to get there, you may never reach the dog's potential. This thread is an example of how even a very experienced handler can discover that she's making lots of errors that are hurting her efficiency. One of the biggest problems that exist in detection work is false alerting. All sorts of terms have been invented to explain away this issue but the fact remains, that dogs sometimes tell their handlers that substances are present when they are not and when they have never been. Dogs trained with this system do not false alert. In LE this is especially important, as a false alert means that the officer is probably violating the 4th Amendment right of the person whose property he's searching. 

False alerting is a function of using a dog that is not highly driven to hunt and that has been trained with rewards. This is not the same thing as a dog that is highly driven to play with a ball, a tug of war toy, or his handler. Those things can be present without a pronounced drive to hunt. If the dog gets bored, tired, hungry, thirsty, hot, cold, frustrated, or a host of other conditions that make him less interested in searching, he might false alert so that his handler will give him his toy/reward and it will be over. He can go relax in the crate or he gets to play with his handler. If a handler rewards a false alert, EVEN ONCE, the dog owns him and he's liable to do it again, anytime he gets bored or frustrated! 

Dogs trained with this system think that they are hunting a rat or some other prey animal directly. OC works by indirectly rewarding the find. This "Drive Training System" reinforces the hunt because the dog is able to fulfill his prey drive DIRECTLY. In this system the dog hunts for, finds, flushes, chases, catches and kill the prey. A towel is substituted for the prey animal and the dog is allowed to "kill" and shred it, just as he would with an actual prey animal. We're getting much closer to completely satisfying the dog's drives than with OC. 

Some people, particularly those with years of work invested in OC will have trouble in accepting how a dog can work this hard and not get a reward. Those people will also think that the towel is being used as a reward, but it's not. It's being substituted for the odor of the prey and the dog is satisfying his prey drive by killing and then shredding it. Here's some video of dogs showing the shredding of a carcass that this training, in part, comes from. WARNING: this video is very graphic. It shows wild dogs killing and devouring prey. If you are sensitive, please do not watch this. Ignore the first part where the dog drive a hyena away and look at the behavior of the dogs ripping the carcass into small, edible pieces. The best view of this starts at about 1:00. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIa9tyyI4TU

Now compare what those dogs are doing to what this dog is doing to the towel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jukilQ5Z1xU&feature=player_embedded[/URL

The behavior of the wild dogs is the same as with the trained dog. Shredding is satisfying a very basic drive in both animals. 

This is not possible to do with any kind of OC. The dog never gets to kill his prey. Think of the devices that are used as a reward, balls, tug toys, Kongs, bringsels, food, and anything else. With food, there is no kill, only feeding. With the first ones, the dog can't kill them. A dog chews and chews and chews a ball or a Kong and as soon as he drops it, it's alive again. The drive has not been satisfied. I believe that the closer we get to satisfying the drive, the more likely that the behavior will be repeated. 

There's a ton more to this system, but I've droned on long enough. If you want more, let me know. 



David Winners said:


> Something else is the correlation of the dog sticking on the out with a relationship problem and not an obedience issue. I see this sometimes when a dog is definitely in conflict with the handler, but I have also seen it in teams that in all other instances have a very good relationship, but the dog has had some possessiveness built up (sometimes encouraged) through training methods.


With this training system the point is moot. The dog "kills" the prey, shreds it and leaves it. But with an OC system, if you tap into the dog's hunting drive, it's relatively easy to get him to release a toy, as it is to get him to release a decoy/suspect that he's bitten.


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## NancyJ

It is intriguing to me; would love to hear more.....I have not had many problems with false alerting but the dog I selected has strong hunt drive. Strong enough that he will drop the toy to run to odor.

I am more likely to get a different behavior with an odor that is not in his catalog with is stand and stare at it. 

I would love to see how this is used in a training scenario. Do you have trouble with dogs self-rewarding on towels? I have enough trouble keeping my socks intact.


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## wyoung2153

Just in my recent days with Titan (you've read) I do believe I will be hearing the same words from the trainer I am going to see. Calling her this week and will schedule the session during SAR training instead.


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## LouCastle

I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have. I'll start a new one discussing the new training paradigm that I described in a previous post. I'll link back here when I post it.


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## NancyJ

Looking forward to seeing it. My next dog will probably be a border terrier (more of a pet really-more for fun-one I can experiment with) and I am going back and forth between HRD or urban trailing/article search. No new dogs until these issues are resolved. I figure all the time we drop things in the woods and an article search dog would def be a plus anyway you cut it..but I bet that would be a little shredder....Figure when Beau, who will be 3 in July, is about 6 I will be getting the next GSD or maybe a mal or, *eeeeek* maybe a lab since I am seeing some mighty fine labs from two places.


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## Bequavious

Ok I have a question that's only loosely related: Nancy and David both talked about the dog pushing the tug back into the handler, and that's something I've seen on Leerburg as well. What happens to me, though, is if I drop the tug so does she. She loves tugging and she loves balls, but as soon as I'm not associated with those items they're worthless to her, and she just stares at me wagging waiting for whatever is next.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## PINESTATE

what does it mean to have a dog "come up the lead?"


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## NancyJ

A dog who perceives an unfair correction my bite the handler.


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## NancyJ

I thought this thread may give you more insight. In my case, Beau has while wanting to keep the tug, given me some growls while I have popped him hard with the prong (usually after the first pop did not work). This is not a behavior I had seen during routine training (such as correcting during obedience) I do not think he is a true "handler agressive dog" but what they refer to is probably to "soft" for the correction I was giving and put on the defense. Fortunately, he has neither bitten me nor, more importantly, won by biting me.

Things are going much better with this approach and I have also quit playing ball with two balls but reach into his mouth to remove the ball for the next throw. I think he is understanding the game better. I think I am as well. It is actually helping our relationship - after I take the tug for the last time I stoke his cheek and we gaze into each others eyes. 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/aggression-good-bad-ugly/124249-handler-aggression.html


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## NancyJ

Update

The out is working much better......The more the game goes on the harder it still is but he will release it.

Have not been back with the trainer just because his wife had a baby - Hope this week or the next we will. Had a little scuffle at training yesterday, which points to the need for more control on not only my part but a teammate's and we are going to work on this bigtime as these "boys" have to be able to work adjacent sectors and ignore each other. 

I was breaking Beau offlead and the other intact male (He is 4, Beau is 2.5) got loose and ran up to Beau. There was some posturing and Beau was trying to be pushy...tail up pushing into other dog then other dog climbed up on Beau and Beau submitted standing there with his ears back and hackles up, but when the other dog got off, Beau started being pushy again. I am not sure where it would have gone from there. I *think* probably Beau would have been put in his place and submitted. FWIW not a sound was made nor was there any snapping. Both dogs were deaf to our commands, though. Not good. 

We both backed OUT of the picture and called our dogs and it broke up but I wish I had a video of it.....We can work them obedience offlead right next to each other and later in the day the other dog was dropping his toy and doing the "come take it" game...both dogs loose lead....I checked Beau a couple of times for wanting to head towards him. There does not seem to be any tension between the two of them in these situations; I know it was not that long ago that both of us went to a search scene jammed into a gator with us and two other people. 

Definitely something to work on.....offlead encounters happen. Sometimes when you don't see it in time to stop before the meeting. FWIW not wanting Beau to be deaf and run up to a police dog at training I worked him on a long line and a harness. Worked out pretty well but there was a bunch of deadfall and briars. Was pretty ok as he was not pulling hard into it, but then I had to drop the line...because there was so much deadfall I would have wound up flat on my face......He was committed at that point to the odor though.


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## David Winners

I've worked 2 different detection dogs, plus my personal field dog, that would posture and get snarky with other dogs when not working. All that went away when they were searching.

Not to say that Beau will remain this way. Just saying that this was normal for 3 dogs I have worked. 

Glad the outs are getting better!

David Winners


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## NancyJ

To me there is still an obedience factor......I think an intact male is going to do some posturing when another intact male runs up to him and gets right in his space.......But I think we should have been able to have stopped it on the spot. I got good advice when the other handler said "back out" .... I don't think either dog wanted a fight and the rest of their "pack" (us) told them we were not going to back them up.


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## onyx'girl

jocoyn said:


> To me there is still an obedience factor......I think an intact male is going to do some posturing when another intact male runs up to him and gets right in his space.......But I think we should have been able to have stopped it on the spot. I got good advice when the other handler said "back out" .... I don't think either dog wanted a fight and the rest of their "pack" (us) told them we were not going to back them up.


I think many fights would not begin or disintigrate if handlers would back out. Most of the time the handler will start yelling and that just ramps up the excitement level and sets the dogs off or encourages rather than discourage the aggression. 
For Beau's age, I think he controlled himself quite well.


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## NancyJ

David Winners said:


> I've worked 2 different detection dogs, plus my personal field dog, that would posture and get snarky with other dogs when not working. All that went away when they were searching.


I think you are probably right and may challenge it (the rest of the world seems to disappear when he is working) some more with team training but not around the LE dogs. Just not the kind of encounter I want to risk at a training where we are invited to participate.


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## Muskeg

Are the LE dogs posturing or snarky?


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## NancyJ

Well, they don't have two loose dogs out at the same time. The dogs are always separated. But I have not seen any evidence one way or the other.


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## NancyJ

Interesting update. Today we had a full day mock search. Very long tiring day. Beau got 3 areas. In the first area, lo and behold......2 chained dogs and one loose very friendly chihuahua we could not deflect. We could not even catch it to leash it up. This dog was UNDER Beau when I was harnessing him and followed us for about 1 mile of our 2 mile search (GPS distance for me, much more for Beau). 

Darned.....he just ignored the little bugger for the most part. There was one point when it kept getting in his way and he charged it but no damage and it backed off "a little" but not much. ...Also ignored the chained dogs. He was in prime work mode for several decent sized search areas. We had some fenced areas to traverse and he figured we were looking for the holes in the fences between a number of pastures and he found them for us (each time going to the other side and looking at us and waiting. .......It was a really good day all in all.

Really the only thing I have been doing is more and more obedience drills (at least once a day plus with team dogs whenever possible)...and putting a vest on him for searchwork. When I first started training him, the master trainer said that I needed to do obedience with him before he worked every time......I guess he needs that kind of structure to focus, but he ranges out very well to cover his areas so it is not stifling him. 

Still planning on getting together with the trainer but his wife just had a baby and they already have toddler twins so I am sure it is all hands on deck at their house.....


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## David Winners

I'm glad you are working things out. As Carmen suggested earlier, you can use that willingness to work to your advantage by working around distractions. Regular exposure may decrease his reaction during non working times as well.

Really glad to hear things are coming along Nancy! You guys are going to be such a great team! Thanks for sharing your progress.

David Winners


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