# Questions about Fight & Defense Drive & Genetics



## GSD_man (Oct 6, 2007)

I would like to discuss to what degree Fight and Defense drive can be trained into a dog regardless of his genetical predisposition. 

I think my question goes to those competing in SCHI,II & III. Have you ever found yourself in a situation where your dogs genetics prevented you from going to the next stage, regardless of the amount of training you put in? Or is this something that is recognized at very early stages of the sport?

What big of a role does the dogs genetics really play in the SCH sport? Can any dog which has Fight, Prey & Defense drive be taken to the SCHIII level?


----------



## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Have you seen this sites:

http://www.siriusdog.com/article298.htm


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:I would like to discuss to what degree Fight and Defense drive can be trained into a dog regardless of his genetical predisposition.


In my opinion, you cannot put those things into a dog with training but you can bring it "out" if it is in the dog. When to try to bring it out is the important part.



> Quote:Have you ever found yourself in a situation where your dogs genetics prevented you from going to the next stage, regardless of the amount of training you put in? Or is this something that is recognized at very early stages of the sport?


Many times it is obvious that a dog does not have what it takes and sometimes, there are dogs labeled that way that are in fact very genetically suited for SchH. It depends on who is looking at the dog. I have seen some really good dogs that someone else thought was not a good dog. If you only train a certain way and a dog doesn't fit into the way you train, yeah, that dog can look not so hot. If you know how to work dogs all kinds of ways, it is easier to really tell if the dog is a good one. Many people working in SchH only know how to tap into the prey instinct of the dog and if a dog does not want to work that way, yes, he can look like not a very good dog. Someone else can come along and work him differently and suddenly he is super dog. Don't see that often because there are not that many people who have that skill. However, the dog does have to have certain genetic traits to do well at SchH otherwise any breed could do it .
One of the biggest problems that I see constantly is people trying to bring out "defense" or fight in a young dog. It comes much later than most people think and when they try to get it out of dogs that are too young to handle it, ( or who have not developed it yet), they basically ruin the dog, mostly by over-powering him. That mistake sets them up for years of trying to fix the result of that. 



> Quote: What big of a role does the dogs genetics really play in the SCH sport? Can any dog which has Fight, Prey & Defense drive be taken to the SCHIII level?


Genetics has a great deal to do with it. When you have a dog with all the right genetic stuff, in the right balance, SchH is easy. I was actually thinking the other day that people nowadays seem to have to work a bit too hard now to get their dogs titled and this is particularly true in protection training . It should not be that hard, the dogs should do protection naturally but I think a combination of the change in the dogs and the skills and methods of the helpers is contributing to this.

There are other genetic traits to consider besides the three you listed when you are titling a dog, and you also have to consider the skill of the trainers .


----------



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

*Re: Questions about Fight & Defense Drive & Genetics*

I don't have much to add, just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence since Flash is a dog that fits what Anne described. As a puppy, the club I was going to could not get one bit of "protection" out of him. They were nearing the point of telling me he just didn't have it. I quit going to that club and now he's only worked in protection when I can make it the long distance to a select few people. People from the original club have seen older Flash and they LOVED him because of how much power he shows in his work, asking me all kinds of questions about his pedigree and who has trained him. They didn't remember me or that they had pretty much written him off when he wasn't even 4 months old. I did not remind them of this due to my nonconfrontational nature, but I can only imagine how bad that crow would have tasted for them. That day only validated my decision to not go to that club anymore. I cannot begin to imagine the problems we would have in protection if I had continued to train with them. Just like Anne was saying, I would be working ten times harder for one tenth the results.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

If you have made a concerted effort to find the genetics in the dog there are much higher chances of success. So many behaviors, drives and characteristics are genetic in dogs. I am always amazed how powerful the genetics can be. You can not "train" or "put into' dogs things that are not there. Working with a dog without the genetics... not so much fun for the dog or the person. I know plenty of GSDs without the genetics to do the activity. 

That being said, in my experience, harder to find the right people than the dog.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

> Quote:What big of a role does the dogs genetics really play in the SCH sport? Can any dog which has Fight, Prey & Defense drive be taken to the SCHIII level?


As Anne already pointed out; a lot. If genetics didn't matter, all dogs and all breeds would be easy to title in SchH.

No. There is far more needed in the dog than just fight, prey and defense. Nerves and physical soundness are two other things that come to mind. And, of course, a good handler and great helper.


----------



## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Something I want to point out is that ALL dogs have defense in some form or another. It would be an extremely rare animal that would not defend itself if given no other options. 

Fight, on the other hand, is not as common.


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Quote:That being said, in my experience, harder to find the right people than the dog.


...and it's not like you didn't look. I still chuckle over FB.









I used to think I wanted to complain about constantly training helpers but now I think there is no other way for me to do SchH and actually enjoy it. Trying to control the "impulses" of the ones who "know what they are doing" is just not possible or enjoyable.


----------



## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Anne, very good answer to OP question in my opinion. We are a shake and bake society and many dogs are pushed to fast and early when it comes to fight/defense. More importantly, many trainers don't recognize the signs when the dog is starting to mature into these drives and able to build them confidently.JMO


----------



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

This topic hits so frustratingly close to home! Those of us without a solid helper are just [screwed]. All the good helpers I know are 1000+ miles away, though many much closer than that like to think they are good helpers, to quote Anne "they know what they are doing". Too many times I've heard of Joe Blow great helper only to be let down when I saw them in action. Flash is at such a crucial stage in his training, he is really coming into his own right now and stupid helper work would be so detrimental. He is also my first dog so I don't have enough experience to teach a helper. Right now I'm very much at the stage where I can't always put my finger on something or explain why a dog is doing something but I just know it is or isn't right. 

Personally, I've resorted to a helper that doesn't think you even need aggression in schh. But this helper is the safest helper for us because they aren't going to do something stupid with Flash's fight and defense and royally screw us for the rest of his schh career. Of course this means Flash doesn't look nearly as nice as he could but put him on one of the solid helpers I know and he's a different dog. Unfortunately he only sees those solid helpers 1-2 times per year, though for several days in a row. I have just accepted the fact that Flash will never reach his full potential in protection. It was hard to come to terms with that but it is what it is unless someone has some awesome idea or I happen to find a good helper within a reasonable day trip driving distance. I guess it could happen. Headed to regionals next weekend so maybe, just maybe, I'll see a dog and immediately think "WHO did the helper work on this dog?!?!"


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

Years ago, we didn't have helpers to go to. We had to bring them in from Germany to teach us how to be helpers. Nowadays, people think if they pay someone they are getting good helper work. They are addicted to short cuts and maybe can't see that the short cut is only making the path longer. I can tell you I have never seen a good helper who charges money. The good ones like it too much to charge. The other thing about that is, even if they were any good, they work too many dogs in one night to be able to train effectively. I am amazed that people pay helpers and then sit and wait while that helper works 30 other dogs before they get to them. Do people REALLY think a helper can do anything effective while trying to work that many dogs? The only thing that is benefitting is the guy's bank account, that's it. 

I think the answer for people is to find a few people who are interested and then set about training them, just like we had to do years ago. Bring your good helpers to your area to train them or pool your money and send then to that person to be trained. No, it won't be perfect, some will quit on you, but it can't be any worse, (and I have found it to mostly be better), than working with the ones who have trained for years. People seem to think because a person does something for years that automatically makes them good at it. I bet you know people at your job who have been there for a quarter century but are about the worst employee in the place. That is pretty common in the helper pool of SchH as well. 

If people would take a more proactive approach to helper training, ( no not the helper program that has basically confused people about what a helper REALLY is), but training someone to be a good training helper, there might not be such a high level of frustration. 
IMO, SchH is going to die out unless more people get involved trying to train helpers and again, I ain't talking about athletes doing trial routine. SchH needs more people who can read dogs and we also need more people who understand sportsmanship and are doing SchH because they like the dogs, not because they have low self esteem. THAT was always there in SchH but not at the level we see nowadays where competitiveness has replaced camaraderie. Much of the time, I am so discouraged about what I see at SchH clubs I am trying to talk myself into quitting. If I knew of something else to do with my dogs that I liked as much, I would do it in a second. That's where I am at. I am lucky, ( and in some ways luck didn't have anything to do with it), to know how to work a dog as the helper. It took years to learn it, lots of effort and it wasn't cheap either. However, I can now train people to work dogs and that is about the only reason I am still doing SchH. If I had to do what most people are doing, where they just hand over their training to someone because they themselves don't know how to do helper work, I'd have quit a LONG time ago.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I constantly feel like "damned if I do, damned if I don't"


----------



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

Part of the problem is the new people most open to learning think exactly what you mentioned, that those who have been doing it for years MUST know what they're doing so they go to the established clubs. And those people who "know what they're doing" are so convincing to the naive beginners, I know because I was one of them when Flash was a baby puppy and didn't care about the rag being shoved in his face. I was so unbelievably lucky to have taken a weekend trip to another club and see what real training is. I've seen people "lost" to those older clubs after I had gotten my hopes up thinking I could do just what you said, pony up as a group and send them to learn real helper work. I've lost count of how many times I've been so frustrated I really wanted to throw in the towel. And I can't say at some point I won't call it quits with schutzhund protection and trial in only tracking and obedience. I know plenty of places I can take my dog for fun bites since he really does love it. It makes no difference to him, he doesn't know what a trial is.


----------



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

And if anyone has any helper suggestions please PM me!!! I currently drive 3 hours each way on WORK NIGHTS for prey only protection work. Gag.


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

For me, I get really frustrated when it becomes so complicated. I don't want to be super paranoid about it and feel like everyone is out there to ruin my dog. I try to go with my gut. There are some moments when I see people work dogs or people handling their dogs in trials and even though I may be just a baby when it comes to these things, it just doesn't *feel* right to me. I don't care if they tell me my dog can be the next Universal Sieger, if I'm just not comfortable with what I see, I move on. When my current helper works my dog, it feels right. Each session he is clear about what we are doing and why. He is honest about my dog's strengths and weaknesses (both what is coming out in our training and from the genetics of the dog), what I can realistically expect and how we're going to get there. I can tell he puts a lot of thought into exactly how he will work each dog, and each dog is worked differently because we have very different dogs. There's just no way I could evaluate the helper work like Anne could because I just don't have that experience, but for me it looks and feels right. My dog slowly improves (and has bad sessions too but the overall picture is slow progress), we have a lot of fun doing it. Club members are friends and are supportive of each other. If I'm not having any fun it's usually because I'm just over thinking all of it and worrying way too much about what everyone else is doing or what they think of me or my dog or my training helper. So for me if I spend so much time analyzing how long/not how long someone has been doing it, exactly how many dogs they work, how much money they make, etc I lose sight of the bigger goal which for me is having fun with my dog and bringing out the best in him. Based on Anne's post I don't know how else to make the choice other than going with my gut. We can't automatically trust someone who's been doing it for decades but shouldn't be too quick to trust someone brand new either. For every thing the dog needs to learn there's probably a dozen different methods that all work. I'm kind of a pushover and not very confrontational so I have to remind myself that this is MY dog and I don't have to train him any way or with any person that I'm not comfortable with or just plain don't like.


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Oh well, I am pretty sure I am cursed! Towel after towel toss!! I didn't find it so much that it was people I wasn't comfortable with or didn't like. I wouldn't have stood around for that. It was actually, unfortunately, just poor work, sometimes not blatant but rather more insidious, of one type or another... over and over... place after place. 

I don't know which is worse... to not know and find out later, or to know and search and get frustrated right up front! 

Guess what? Now that I am more aware of the "state of the art", I will still probably again give it a go! As it is now.... 8 month old puppy remains safely in my sphere of influence only, so far. 

I feel like such a bummer saying it, but it was all pretty real, I think!
Even worse, you don't want to know the years of experience or level of competition some had participated in! Aiayaiayaia!


----------



## Heidifarm (Sep 20, 2006)

Lies - I feel the same as you. I'm very new to this sport, and Heidi has worked with a few different helpers, some newer than others. The problem is, I don't know what I don't know when it comes to helper work, but I do know what my gut tells me. For now, while we're doing the foundation work, I've decided to try and stick with one helper and method that I feel comfortable with. I luckily have someone in my area who is very experienced with foundation work with young dogs, so I'm going to stick with that. When you're new to the sport the whole thing can seem overwhelming and I feel very naive because everyone has more experience than I do!


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Fight & Defense Drive & Genetics*

I am fortunate, where I live there are quite a few good helpers and clubs to work within a 2 hour drive. I had to make the choice to fit my schedule and drive time. 
Each club I have gone to has great helpers and training directors. I don't bob around, but have been to a few clubs.
I ended up choosing to work with Karlo at a club w/ a national level trial helper and he can read the dogs so well. He also knows what the judges look for during trials, so the foundation correctness is emphasized, the fixing minimal(but they are dogs, afterall so not perfect!)
He is also mentoring another helper, it would be great if someone else could get some experience with him and carry on. 
It seems to me that more women are training in the sport than men, and the physical factor of helperwork is detrimental to many.

As Lies posted, individual dog/individual thought to each session.
We talk about what we are focusing on and I see so much improvement week to week with all the dogs. Especially when different breeds are in the equation...there are Mals, Dutchies, Bulldogs and Rotties.

This isn't about the subject, sorry to stray...

my pup has the genetics, right now he is working in prey because of his age, and as he matures the fight drive is kicking in. 

I hear ya about the levels of competition, Samba, I am a bit intimidated where I am training now, most have the experience and are very competitive so I say _Aiayaiayai_ as well! 
Thank God they are so helpful with the newbie's!


----------



## jesusica (Jan 13, 2006)

I would actually love to do helper work. I've given a few bites to a trained dog and it was amazing, a whole new perspective. Problem is my size. Most dogs could manhandle me.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

*Re: Questions about Fight & Defense Drive & Genetics*

Today a rottie that doesn't out was "training the new helper"(Under Clarks direction and supervision of course), I wouldn't want to be on the end of the sleeve with him for sure! The helper was sweating bigtime, and when he was done, compared him to 6 12# bowling balls!
It would help as a handler to be a helper for sure!


----------



## Heidifarm (Sep 20, 2006)

I'm actually planning to go to a helper seminar next month, just to watch and learn. I'm not planning on putting a sleeve on, but I am hoping it will teach me something.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

That is something all of us should do, Karen!


----------



## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I really admire great helpers and it's not that I don't think I'd enjoy doing it, but like everything, there's just not enough hours in the day or money in the bank account. I'm perfectly fine paying a good helper when they have to make long drives and take time away from their own families and their own dogs, plus all the wear on their own equipment being used for my dog. A few days ago I added up fees for club dues and training fees and it came out to only $6.11 per hour compared to some of the "professional" trainers and behaviorist who charge anywhere from $20-$100/hr just for pet type training.


----------



## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

It would be great to see our dogs from the eye of a helper, to make us stronger, better handlers, so going to a seminar would be beneficial. 
I could never catch a dog, unless it was under 40# & not a Mal, LOL!


----------



## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

*Re: Questions about Fight & Defense Drive & Genetics*

I'm just going to say this and that's all I have to say about paid helpers. Those helpers who want money learned to be helpers on someone else's dogs and they are STILL learning on the dogs they are being paid to work. I am betting the people who owned/own those dogs didn't/aren't charging those helpers for the use of their dogs but suddenly, once they are barely sufficient doing it, they think people should pay them to be the helper. BS. I will NEVER pay anyone to work my dog...period. I don't care if it is Helmut Raiser. I have worked dogs as the helper for 34 years now and I still learn something with every dog I work. I figure it is a mutual exchange there with the people who bring their dogs here to train in SchH .The satisfaction I get working dogs makes money seem just kind of worthless in comparison. That satisfaction comes from being good at it and being able to do things with dogs that most people can't. If you don't have that skill, I guess money replaces that satisfaction. Oh and yes, I do feel strongly about this topic.
I have money, I make it doing other things. This is a hobby for the helpers, just like it is for you. They would be away from their family even if you were not paying them. I have had a number of people offer to pay me to work their dogs. I have never accepted money for helper work. This is my hobby, not my business. I have heard all the reasons why people think they should be paid and frankly it's a bunch of boloney. The only reason they want to be paid is to MAKE MONEY. Maybe I wouldn't be quite as offended if they would just tell the truth, don't make up a bunch of crappola about why you have to be paid. You don't HAVE to be paid you WANT to be paid. I think this need to make money off of SchH is part of what is destroying it. I know in my heart I am right about that.

As for knowing how to do helper work. If you can't do it physically, then you can't. That day is approaching for me where I won't want to do it because it hurts too much or I might get hurt and not be able to run my business. However, if you are going to do SchH and want to try to avoid what I talked about earlier, you owe it to yourself and especially to your dog, to learn as much about helper work, protection training etc, as your helper does or more. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean you can't watch and try to learn. Once you learn that you need to always have a plan for your dog and training, especially when you go to a new helper. 
What Lies said about having the right feeling is a good way to start. If it is new helper watch him work other dogs and if you don't like what you see, don't kid yourself and think it won't be the same or worse with your own dog. Don't ignore the voice that says "this just is not right". I have been amazed at how many people can't tell when their dog is getting the short end of the stick...or worse.... the long one! Some people just stand there while their dog is basically being abused. You have to be able to stand up and say knock it off or at least stop putting your dog in that situation if it happens one time. Having some knowledge about the right or wrong way, and making it clear that you do know, is one way to avoid those situations and, like I said, having a plan in your head to be able to stop someone when they are working your dog all wrong, wouldn't hurt either.


----------



## Ruthie (Aug 25, 2009)

Lies, I like your philosophy on working with helpers.

Karen and Jane, I think that is a great idea! I hope I have the opportunity to do that someday. We have a great helper at our club and I am constantly asking him quesitons like, "What are you seeing?", "Why are you doing that?", "What does that technique accomplish?", "What is the goal?". It would be great to learn some of what he knows.

As for the original post...

I understand that prey, defense, and fight are genetic. I don't believe that you can train drive into a dog that doesn't have it, but can't you stifle or bring out the drive (develop it)?


----------



## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: Questions about Fight & Defense Drive & Genetics*



> Originally Posted By: Vandal
> However, if you are going to do SchH and want to try to avoid what I talked about earlier, you owe it to yourself and especially to your dog, to learn as much about helper work, protection training etc, as your helper does or more. Just because you can't do it doesn't mean you can't watch and try to learn. Once you learn that you need to always have a plan for your dog and training, especially when you go to a new helper.


A wise person told me this in similar words a while back (thank you Anne!) 
We all read books and watch videos learning how to teach our dogs obedience and tracking, but when it comes to protection, many of us know just enough to "be a pole!" It is interesting because this is the one discipline where it is the easiest to screw up a dog, and yet so many handlers never take responsibility for it.

Many handlers really don't know what their dog is doing... defense, prey, fight. They just expect the helper to do everything.


----------



## GSD_man (Oct 6, 2007)

thanks everyone 4 your input


----------

