# Does this breeder scream red flags?



## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

Here's a little short story on us, my boyfriend and I are ready to take that step in our relationship and start our family together -- but not with kids just yet. So we wanted to start with a dog. I recently graduated college, on the hunt for a job, and he has a full time job. We both live with our parents still until we figure out where my job will be at. We can't keep it here at my parent's house because that idea got vetoed. So the dog will be staying at his house where his family has a shepherd/lab mix right now whose 11 years old but absolutely does not do car rides, and 3 cats (two of them are 2 years old and one is 1 year old) I know crazy amount of animals but it wouldn't be for that long. We are probably hoping to get our own place by the end of the summer into early fall. The hunt has been between a shepherd, husky or a lab mix but we've narrowed it down to a shepherd. So it's been a real challenge trying to find a dog that gets along with other dogs and cats. So I've been checking shelters and rescues all over the place & I even resorted to Facebook groups just in case people are trying to rehome or sell their dogs on facebook since that's what everyone uses anymore.

Well, just recently I've been in contact with a lady via facebook, from my area about one of her shepherd puppies that she has left from her one litter. 5 months old, says parents are both OFA certified, even gave me her vet to call and verify this information with them. The dog is adorable and I told my boyfriend about her and what not but then I went onto the public records website & searched her name bc I was curious... well, kind of glad I did but this is my question and I don't know how I feel about this. 

In 2014 she had two citations the first one was for unlawful to operate kennel without licenses & on that same day she got one for 1 vaccination against rabies required 4-12 weeks old. In 2011 she had gotten another unlawful to operate kennel without licenses and then she got one for one application dog licenses/fees, penalties. And back in 2011, she also had a civil judgement with a bank for a good size amount (the amount roughly of 4 pure breed shepherds)

Can those things happen to even the best breeders or does this seller scream red flags, run away?


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## Cheyanna (Aug 18, 2012)

Run away very fast. A reputable breeder is not cited


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Based on the information above, I would pass. Of course even a good breeder can make an Oups! mistake, and forget to renew a license, or have a disagreement over money with a buyer, but when things escalate to legal action, and shows a pattern of problems, that does raise red flags to me. 

The puppy may be just fine, but I would choose to enter into a business transaction with a person that I felt was ethical and I could put my trust in them. 

I'm confused about the rabies vaccine though - I believe rabies isn't required until the puppy is four months old? Did you mean to say 4-12 months old in your post? Can't imagine giving a 4 week old a rabies vac!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Nothing to do with the breeder, won't comment without knowing specifics of each case, I would say wait on getting a dog until you are in a new home. If it's only a couple months away, why the rush? 

Take your time. Find a nice place to live, find a job, research and find a reputable breeder or rescue and get the dog once you are settled. You have a lot going on in your life right now. A few months and stability is going to be better in the long run for any dog you bring home.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'd personally pass, I want to feel comfortable about the ethics of the breeder


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> Based on the information above, I would pass. Of course even a good breeder can make an Oups! mistake, and forget to renew a license, or have a disagreement over money with a buyer, but when things escalate to legal action, and shows a pattern of problems, that does raise red flags to me.
> 
> The puppy may be just fine, but I would choose to enter into a business transaction with a person that I felt was ethical and I could put my trust in them.
> 
> I'm confused about the rabies vaccine though - I believe rabies isn't required until the puppy is four months old? Did you mean to say 4-12 months old in your post? Can't imagine giving a 4 week old a rabies vac!


Yeah sometimes people's lives get a little out of hand and they slip up but when I saw she had like 6 citations, I was hoping there was someone else with her same name but they all said something about a dog and knew it was her. Red flags went up instantly when I saw the citations but I mean things happen and life gets busy but then I saw the civil whatever it was called for a lot of money with a bank, as much as I really liked the dog and as adorable as she is I really don't want to get mixed up with someone who has a rep like that. 

Like you said, she might be okay but I completely agree. I would rather deal with someone else that doesn't have all those fines that relate to something that i'm interested in buying.

I'm not entirely sure, I was confused by that as well. but the docket summary said, "Vaccination against Rabies Required - 4 to 12
weeks old" so I'm not entirely sure what that is supposed to mean or what that is about.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Nothing to do with the breeder, won't comment without knowing specifics of each case, I would say wait on getting a dog until you are in a new home. If it's only a couple months away, why the rush?
> 
> Take your time. Find a nice place to live, find a job, research and find a reputable breeder or rescue and get the dog once you are settled. You have a lot going on in your life right now. A few months and stability is going to be better in the long run for any dog you bring home.


Yeah I don't know what the specifics of the cases were but still makes me a little uneasy. True there isn't a rush but I'm still going to keep my eyes open and see what is available.


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

gsdsar said:


> Nothing to do with the breeder, won't comment without knowing specifics of each case, I would say wait on getting a dog until you are in a new home. If it's only a couple months away, why the rush?
> 
> Take your time. Find a nice place to live, find a job, research and find a reputable breeder or rescue and get the dog once you are settled. You have a lot going on in your life right now. A few months and stability is going to be better in the long run for any dog you bring home.


^This

Also, in the event something happens between you and your boyfriend (hopefully it won't) decide in advance who gets to keep the dog or what visitation rights, if any, there will be. Not a bad idea to get in in writing.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

krissy92 said:


> Yeah I don't know what the specifics of the cases were but still makes me a little uneasy. True there isn't a rush but I'm still going to keep my eyes open and see what is available.


I would think about what you want in a dog, and then try and find a breeder who produces that, if you want to go the breeder route. GSD's and huskies are very, very different breeds, so think about what it is you want in terms of drive, temperament, etc. There will probably be a wait for a puppy anyways. That will ensure you get a dog that is hand-selected to be the best possible match for you, your lifestyle, and your abilities as a handler... rather than hoping the puppy someone happens to have leftover is a good fit for you. This will give you guys the chance to get settled into your new home and figure out what your routine and expectations are.


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## katieliz (Mar 29, 2007)

double this ^^^triple this^^^quadruple this^^^

sorry, no matter about the "breeder", just simply not a good time to get a puppy and you will regret it. you won't regret being patient and waiting.


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## mycobraracr (Dec 4, 2011)

I know this wasn't your question, but, slow down. Now does not sound the time to get a puppy. Get your own place with or without your boyfriend, then decide on a puppy. Heck, get your own puppy. Your boyfriend will be around anyway, so why does it need to be both of yours? I don't really see it as being fair to the dog otherwise. Also as others have said, figure out what will happen to the dog if something changes. There are always cute puppies out there, or a litter "you just have to have a pup from". So take your time, do it right. You'll be much happier in the long run. Just my two cents.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

LoveEcho said:


> I would think about what you want in a dog, and then try and find a breeder who produces that, if you want to go the breeder route. GSD's and huskies are very, very different breeds, so think about what it is you want in terms of drive, temperament, etc. There will probably be a wait for a puppy anyways. That will ensure you get a dog that is hand-selected to be the best possible match for you, your lifestyle, and your abilities as a handler... rather than hoping the puppy someone happens to have leftover is a good fit for you. This will give you guys the chance to get settled into your new home and figure out what your routine and expectations are.


Well we want one that will enjoy going for walks/runs, car rides, one that doesn't have a hunt drive that would want to chase/attack our cats. Active, loyal, playful and just an all around happy upbeat dog. Also one that wants to be trained, easy/quick to train. That's what I can think of off the top of my head but I'm sure my bf will have other reasons as to why. The thing is though, with me I love all animals and I feel bad for them. So even if they are the "leftovers", they still deserve a home and the love that any of it's siblings would be getting in their new furever home. I don't know i'm a sucker for animals and feel bad for all kinds. I feel really bad for the ones that are at petstores.. they have no control over how they're breed and where they're from but right now, obviously is not a good time to be someone to rescue and save puppies from a pet store.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

We all know what puppy fever is like, LOL! But agree with eveyone else about slowing down. Since you are on here asking quesions, doing internet research on breeders, that shows that you care about getting a good dog from a good breeder, and are open to educating yourself about how to go about finding a good breeder. 

One thing about good breeders, is that they will be very hesitant to place a pup into a situation such as yours. They will want to see some proof of stability, like the two of you owning your own house. Sure, there will be breeders that will sell you a pup at the drop of a hat, no questions asked, but that is not what one would consider a good breeder, so not what you are looking for. 

Stalk the deck in your favor, research now, make contact with breeders you are interested in now, and wait until you are settled to bring a new pup into your home.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

Persinette said:


> ^This
> 
> Also, in the event something happens between you and your boyfriend (hopefully it won't) decide in advance who gets to keep the dog or what visitation rights, if any, there will be. Not a bad idea to get in in writing.


Well we've been together for 4.5 years and don't plan on breaking but you never know what could happen. But you are right, if we do get one I'll make sure to do that and to get it down in writing.


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

krissy92 said:


> Well we want one that will enjoy going for walks/runs, car rides, one that doesn't have a hunt drive that would want to chase/attack our cats. Active, loyal, playful and just an all around happy upbeat dog. Also one that wants to be trained, easy/quick to train. That's what I can think of off the top of my head but I'm sure my bf will have other reasons as to why. The thing is though, with me I love all animals and I feel bad for them. So even if they are the "leftovers", they still deserve a home and the love that any of it's siblings would be getting in their new furever home. I don't know i'm a sucker for animals and feel bad for all kinds. I feel really bad for the ones that are at petstores.. they have no control over how they're breed and where they're from but right now, obviously is not a good time to be someone to rescue and save puppies from a pet store.


Just some of my thoughts 

1) If you want something in trainable and obedient, generally speaking don't get a husky. They are notoriously independent minded. 

2) While it can usually be trained out of them, many GSD are not safe around cats if they have a high prey drive

3) 'saving' dogs from pet stores only gives more money and supports their breeding/selling practice and puppy mills

4) I think you would be well served adopting a lab mix of some sort. Active, sweet, loyal, biddable


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

katieliz said:


> double this ^^^triple this^^^quadruple this^^^
> 
> sorry, no matter about the "breeder", just simply not a good time to get a puppy and you will regret it. you won't regret being patient and waiting.


Well we really weren't looking for a puppy puppy, like one we go and pick out when it's 8 weeks old or whatever. we really looking for around 9 months - 3 years. but a lot of what we've looked at have been 1-2 years old. But I do understand what you mean.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

katieliz said:


> double this ^^^triple this^^^quadruple this^^^
> 
> sorry, no matter about the "breeder", just simply not a good time to get a puppy and you will regret it. you won't regret being patient and waiting.


Well we really weren't looking for a puppy puppy, like one we go and pick out when it's 8 weeks old or whatever. we really looking for around 9 months - 3 years. but a lot of what we've looked at have been 1-2 years old. But I do understand what you mean. It's just been a long 5 years in college and I'm ready to move on and start my life and we are ready to start it together.


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## Persinette (Jan 31, 2015)

krissy92 said:


> Well we really weren't looking for a puppy puppy, like one we go and pick out when it's 8 weeks old or whatever. we really looking for around 9 months - 3 years. but a lot of what we've looked at have been 1-2 years old. But I do understand what you mean. It's just been a long 5 years in college and I'm ready to move on and start my life and we are ready to start it together.


I totally understand that impulse! After 4 years of college and 2 in post-grad work the wait has been killing me! I am so ready! I want my pup!! But, my living situation and lifestyle is not ready. I think getting settled in your new place first is a smart step. Not having a job yet, not as important if your boyfriend is working (you can stay at home and bond with th new family member), but having a stable living situation is important.

Given what you have described, I think adopting a young lab or golden mix from a shelter, 1-4 years old, could be perfect for you guys. I'd just wait until you find a place, especially since many have rules about large breed dogs. A GSD could be a great fit too, I'd just do lots of testing with your cats before leaving them alone together. Some can't ever be safe with them. But that could be said of all breeders of dog.

Also, in the event things did go south, have a plan. Would you get your own place an take the dog? Would you have to move back home then he gets the dog since your parents don't want one? Never fun to think about, but good to have a general plan.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

Castlemaid said:


> We all know what puppy fever is like, LOL! But agree with eveyone else about slowing down. Since you are on here asking quesions, doing internet research on breeders, that shows that you care about getting a good dog from a good breeder, and are open to educating yourself about how to go about finding a good breeder.
> 
> One thing about good breeders, is that they will be very hesitant to place a pup into a situation such as yours. They will want to see some proof of stability, like the two of you owning your own house. Sure, there will be breeders that will sell you a pup at the drop of a hat, no questions asked, but that is not what one would consider a good breeder, so not what you are looking for.
> 
> Stalk the deck in your favor, research now, make contact with breeders you are interested in now, and wait until you are settled to bring a new pup into your home.


Thank you! It's more puppy fever mixed with it's been 12 years since I've had a big dog (my family has a shih tzu/maltesse mix rn) and I want to finally have one again mixed with I finally graduated college after 5 years, I want to start my life out in the real world. lol.

I do really are. Our original plan was to adopt from a shelter because there are so many dogs that just get tossed there and no animal should have to live like that. And when I started browsing back in middle of April none of the breeders around here had puppies yet. And there hasn't been any at shelters that fit what we are looking for (age, other animals wise & location) so I figured I'd check those facebook groups because like I said before people post in there because everyone is on facebook. I'm also one of those people who get really weird about going to people's house I don't know, so I figured since Pennsylvania has those public dockets up on a website, might as well check this lady out and make sure she isn't some scary person because now a days you never know what kind of person you're dealing with. 

I'll get in contact with more breeders around the area and get in touch with them. 

If anyone knows of any good breeders in Pennsylvania in the central PA area (2 hour radius) please feel free to let me know


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

krissy92 said:


> Well we want one that will enjoy going for walks/runs, car rides, one that doesn't have a hunt drive that would want to chase/attack our cats. Active, loyal, playful and just an all around happy upbeat dog. Also one that wants to be trained, easy/quick to train. That's what I can think of off the top of my head but I'm sure my bf will have other reasons as to why. The thing is though, with me I love all animals and I feel bad for them. So even if they are the "leftovers", they still deserve a home and the love that any of it's siblings would be getting in their new furever home. I don't know i'm a sucker for animals and feel bad for all kinds. I feel really bad for the ones that are at petstores.. they have no control over how they're breed and where they're from but right now, obviously is not a good time to be someone to rescue and save puppies from a pet store.


A breeder having a leftover puppy doesn't mean that dog doesn't deserve a home, or won't get a home. Finding the right match for you is essential. You can love a dog, but if it's not a good fit for you then it's not the best scenario for either of you. A good breeder is going to take the time to get to know you, what your expectations are and what kind of dog you're capable of handling, and place a specific puppy with you who has the temperament that meshes best with yours. 

What you described is pretty general- there's a lot that goes into owning one of these guys and it's awesome that you're doing your research. Maybe find a local GSD/IPO club, get to know the different "flavors" of GSD and see what you like and what suits your lifestyle.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

Persinette said:


> Just some of my thoughts
> 
> 1) If you want something in trainable and obedient, generally speaking don't get a husky. They are notoriously independent minded.
> 
> ...


well we've dropped huskies out of the running unless we get a place with a fenced in yard because we know they are escape artists. this is true about supporting puppy mills and those type of sells. its just sad.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

Also another thing to keep in mind German Shepherds are often on the banned breeds list of places you can rent from. Whereas a lab gets a green light. (Stupid breed restrictions but sadly often true).


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

creegh said:


> Also another thing to keep in mind German Shepherds are often on the banned breeds list of places you can rent from. Whereas a lab gets a green light. (Stupid breed restrictions but sadly often true).


Well I think our main goal is to get a house. Where we live there aren't many apartments unless they're for college students.


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## creegh (Sep 12, 2014)

krissy92 said:


> Well I think our main goal is to get a house. Where we live there aren't many apartments unless they're for college students.


Good luck.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I would not get a lab or golden. I'm sorry, but all the reasons not to get a shepherd apply to those breeds as well. Both are extremely popular, are being bred by everyone and their brother, and they are seeing problems in health and temperament as shepherds have. 

They are active hunting dogs, and two young upwardly mobile people may or may not have the time to keep up with their requirements. Bored, under-exercised dogs in inexperienced hands are a recipe for disaster. You might as well go with a shepherd.

But, do some research on the lines and do a honest inventory on how much time and energy you are expecting to put into this. If we are talking about putting the dog in a box from 7AM to 7PM and then hike around the block before heading out on the town for one party or another minus the dog, then forget owning a dog at all.

That being said, I do believe that young working couples can make it work with a good shepherd. Shepherds all need exercise and attention and training, but some will require more than others, and THIS is the information you need to relay to your breeder, because drive and energy requirements do vary within litters.

Choosing a breeder is hard because if you look long enough you will pretty much eliminate everyone. I think most of the folks here are happiest with breeders who keep a few bitches and produce litters occasionally, and are into some sort of dog sport.

The problem with that is if a breeder is breeding a litter every third year, how in God's name can she evaluate a litter from 3 weeks to 8 weeks, and pick out the best pup for you. The people here make it sounds like it is a big matching game. And, maybe it is with working line dogs, I don't know. But most breeders are lucky to recognize outliers in the litter, where the rest of the litter will probably be ok with anyone. If you get one of these middle of the road pups, then it is up to you to socialize and train the puppy properly.

Yes, you said puppy may not be the way to go. Ok then, good breeders will take back their dogs if there is a need. Sometimes this is due to health or behavioral reasons. Sometimes it is due to the owners falling into some type of difficulty or death -- no fault of the breeder or dog. And sometimes breeders keep pups and let them grow out to see if they are what they are looking for to continue on with. Not all of these dogs make it, and they are generally still great dogs. And this is where you breeder who is into canine sports/training and breeds occasionally can really help in determining if the dog they have available is a good match for you, if and only if, you have been very honest about what you want and need, and are good at communicating that.

Don't take that wrong. The thing is, most people do not go out looking for a dog that is way beyond what they are capable of or desire to deal with. "Very active" will mean something different to you than it means to the breeder. You need to talk to breeders. Really talk to them. They have to get an understanding of what your lifestyle is like and what your needs are. There aren't any shortcuts really. Mistakes are made all the time on both ends.

Yes, I wouldn't place a puppy or a young dog into your situation. You need to rent or own a place for the dog to live, and you have to have managed that for months at a minimum. The good news is that you currently do not have a dog. So, when you are out looking for places to rent/buy, you are doing it with the idea that you will own a dog. So you will go into it looking for a place where the dog is welcome, and the restrictions are reasonable. 

Really, I think you have several months to a few years to wait before you are at the best place to bring home a dog. Which means you have plenty of time to research breeds and find the best breed for you, to research the various lines and find the right breeder, or find an appropriate rescue that will help you find the right dog for you, to research the local ordinances and be able to set yourself up in a situation where you are likely to succeed. 

In the mean time, there are lots of dogs out there that need help. The help that dogs need are varied and homes are just one way we can help dogs. Volunteering at a local shelter can give you good experience while helping dogs, it will give you a dog fix while you are putting yourself in a position to give a dog a great home. With luck the dogs will benefit by training and exercise and socialization which will make them more likely to get a forever home. Maybe the dog of your dreams will come from there. Maybe not. But you will come away having a better idea of what you are looking for, and what you are not looking for. 

Good luck.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

selzer said:


> I would not get a lab or golden. I'm sorry, but all the reasons not to get a shepherd apply to those breeds as well. Both are extremely popular, are being bred by everyone and their brother, and they are seeing problems in health and temperament as shepherds have.
> 
> They are active hunting dogs, and two young upwardly mobile people may or may not have the time to keep up with their requirements. Bored, under-exercised dogs in inexperienced hands are a recipe for disaster. You might as well go with a shepherd.
> 
> ...



I first want to start off with saying thank you. 

I really don't want a lab, a friend of mine growing up had two and my bf has one and I just want a break from them. And another friend of mine has a retriever and they're just not the dog for me. 

I'm going to look into the different breeds and lines of shepherds. we talked about things tonight and we have a game plan in mind for what we are going to do. so i'll do some more research on which lines would be the best. there is no way, i would ever EVER let my dog be in a crate or a house for 12 hours by itself. right now my bf works 2-10pm & I hope to find a job that would work me 8-4 or 9-5. So it would only be in a crate or house for 3-4 hours but depending on where we live/find a house we could always have one of our siblings go let it out or play with it for a couple hours. That's cruel to leave them that long, in a house by themselves. I wouldn't do it. Also my bf wants to have a dog that would enjoy running with him so he doesn't have to run alone, because i have really long legs and i look like an awkward giraffe trying to run. running isn't for me. but i do enjoy going on walks and hiking, so we plan on being very active with our future dog.

getting attention, training and exercise, really won't be a problem with us. we both want a dog that will be trained and one that knows a lot of commands. that's one of the main things we've talked about that we want to accomplish. and i adore animals. so they have no problem getting attention from me and he spoils his black lab/shepherd like no other. and exercising well i said above, that won't be an issue. we just gotta make sure it's the right line for us. 

I'll be sure to do some more research and get in contact with some breeders and explain to them our situation and be very open. I'm a very honest person to begin with and there's no way that I would be able to sit there and lie to a breeder about our lifestyle for a dog where we will be paying thousands of dollars just to purchase and that doesn't include all the other expensive that comes with a dog. 

I'm not the type of person that would get a dog, and send it back. I would make sure at the breeders place that the dog we were going to take home would be the dog that stays and we all get to enjoy it's life together. I know sometimes it doesn't always work out and that's a bummer and sucks but i'm going to make sure we do our hardest to make sure that doesn't happen. 

I think we are going to try to avoid renting mainly like i said before places around here are only for college students and barely anyone allows you to have pets. and we wouldn't be looking for a place that just allows dogs it would be a place that allows cats and dogs. I personally myself, under my name don't have a dog. but my family has a shih tzu/maltesse mix, and before we got her back in 2003 we had a springer spaniel for 9 years before he past away and before him i believe my parents had a brittany? maybe I can't remember exactly. But my grandparents used to have a Brittany and both her and our springer were crazy high energy dogs but i loved them so much. just everything about them.

I've thought about helping out but I did my senior project with the local humane society and that just made me want to take home every cute lovable dogs home -- even breeds I don't like. 

I'm not saying you're wrong about waiting a couple months to a year but I think everyone is different and some it takes more time to adjust to a new lifestyle and events in their lives where others it'll take them a month or so and they're fine. my boyfriend has had his job for 2 years and doesn't plan on going anywhere yet, and he's pretty settle and well money manged and other crap like that, I just need to hit the job pavement and find a full time job so I can be at the spot he is so we can find a place. 

I'm thinking that we will be able to handle a shepherd as long as it's the right time in our lives and the right temperament and line. 

like i said above though, thank you, I appreciate the advice and your two cents.


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## krissy92 (Jun 10, 2015)

I just want to thank everyone who has put in their two cents, gave me advice, made me feel good about all the research that I've done, and even to the ones who made me feel like I was out of my mind and that a shepherd won't work for us. 

Everything everyone has said to me has been taken into consideration and we have a plan to what we are going to do. We are going to stick with finding a shepherd. We are going to keep an eye out at shelters for now, get in contact with breeders so they know who we are, our life styles etc so when we finally do get our own place, we will be able to get a puppy. 

I think we our quite capable of owning and raising a shepherd (puppy or a year or so old) to be healthy, happy, exercised, trained and most importantly loved just like anyone else here on this website. we love animals and love dogs and our future dog won't be our first dog. 

I will continue to do my homework, research breeders, their lines and figure out which one will fit for us.


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