# How is pet obedience training different from show training?



## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

I am certain there is a different style of training. The dog is more focused, engaged, conveys a happy, confident body movement when it is trained for competition. Can someone explain more the two styles of training? 

And how about working dogs? .Is obedience taught the same way for all dogs? Is this how they used to do in old school training as well?


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## farnln (Nov 4, 2012)

We are working on AKC style obedience to compete. I guess the difference for me between competition & pet obedience would be the precision involved.

Example-For a 'pet' recall, as long as the dog comes in close enough to reach easily I would be satisfied. A competition recall would have to be directly in front of me & straight. 

The dogs body positioning becomes much more important in competition.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Criteria, absolutely. "pet" obedience is trained for the dog you want to live with. I like to think the accuracy for commands at home for this type of training are around 75% - you're asking for much higher criteria if you want to show and need somewhere around 99%


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

It is all about having more specific standards. For competition, you get points knocked off for things like a crooked sit or giving your dog too many cues with your body language. Things that would never matter to a pet owner, but for competition they are important. I do not think it has anything to do with old school or compulsion-based training. I've seen that style of training used on both pet and show dogs.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks all for the explanation. 

But I guess my question(which I am not able to express clearly) is: Is that happy body language because of making the training more fun? The reason i ask is I see that most pet obedience trainers just seem to make it very dry. Sit treat, or sit correct. I see a huge difference between the way of the engaging and game filled training videos of some of the top sports trainers and the regular well recommeded pet trainers. 

Although I do not want that perfect sit and heel, I do want to find a more engaging trainer who understands movement and play and its impact. Am i wrong in what i am thinking or wanting that even if I do not compete? ( well i do want to do agility and tracking).


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Sri said:


> Thanks all for the explanation.
> 
> But I guess my question9which I am not able to express clearly) isL I s that happy body language because of making the training more fun? The reason i ask is I see that most pet obedience trainers just seem to make it very dry. Sit treat, or sit correct. I see a huge difference from the way the engaging and game filled training videos of some of the top sports trainers and the regular well recommeded pet trainers.


People that are training to compete typically engage and DO have happier, more eager dogs because of their better training style, to build a better understanding and bond to accomplish the more reliable commands.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Sri said:


> Is that happy body language because of making the training more fun?


Sometimes. Sometimes it's because dogs selected for competition tend to be higher drive and inherently more enthusiastic about working.

There's no reason you can't use the play-based and motivational techniques to train pet dogs, though. They work perfectly well for that purpose and my experience has been that yes, you do get a happier and more engaged training partner using that approach, even if you never end up in the competition ring.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Sri said:


> Thanks all for the explanation.
> 
> But I guess my question(which I am not able to express clearly) is: Is that happy body language because of making the training more fun? The reason i ask is I see that most pet obedience trainers just seem to make it very dry. Sit treat, or sit correct. I see a huge difference from the way the engaging and game filled training videos of some of the top sports trainers and the regular well recommeded pet trainers.


It's because manners are more important than happiness and accuracy. It's actually only recently that a happy obedience dog has been "rewarded" in the competitions as well. A decade ago, it really didn't matter how "happy" your dog looked.

For pet people...a calm dog is more important than happy obedience. And the best way to have a calm dog is to not develop drive and to teach calmly. On top of that, teaching a dog using drive, and the way many high level competitors train is extremely difficult in the sense of the coordination that is needed many times. So, in order to teach a handler how to do all that is necessary, the proper time to reward, ect, takes a lot of time and lots of lessons. It's hard to do that when the majority of people take an 8 week obedience course and never come back.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

When you are training your dog to compete, you are doing *a lot* of training work. Months....Years.....Your dog is going to get bored, lose interest and you will fail your dog. To keep your dog interested in the work, it has to find it rewarding. 

"Pet People" (as Martemchik put it) will train their dogs through OB. It can be precise or sloppy depending on the handler. Their goal isn't to compete, it's to have a well mannered dog.


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

Sri said:


> Thanks all for the explanation.
> 
> But I guess my question(which I am not able to express clearly) is: Is that happy body language because of making the training more fun? The reason i ask is I see that most pet obedience trainers just seem to make it very dry. Sit treat, or sit correct. I see a huge difference between the way of the engaging and game filled training videos of some of the top sports trainers and the regular well recommeded pet trainers.
> 
> Although I do not want that perfect sit and heel, I do want to find a more engaging trainer who understands movement and play and its impact. Am i wrong in what i am thinking or wanting that even if I do not compete? ( well i do want to do agility and tracking).



I think what you are seeing is a function of the trainer's skill. The enthusiasm comes from using motivation skillfully.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Kaimeju said:


> I think what you are seeing is a function of the trainer's skill. The enthusiasm comes from using motivation skillfully.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I tend to think the opposite. It's the dog and not the trainer. Dog can't be flashy if it doesn't have drive. Competition dogs are competing for a reason. They have good drive.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

It's both, not either/or.

The drivier your dog is, the easier it is to get a flashy performance out of that dog and the less work you have to do as a trainer to coax that enthusiasm out of them.

It is possible to get a certain amount of accuracy and enthusiasm out of random-bred mutt puppies, but it is substantially more difficult than getting the same level of performance from a dog that's been specifically bred to excel in the ring.

After years of working at it every day, Pongu does okay enough sometimes, so I know it's possible to compete (sort of, in some things) with a pretty unlikely dog... but I also know how hard it is to achieve that with a dog that wasn't bred for sports.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes, I understand about the drive. I am not complaining about the dog, just the lack of enthusiastic trainers around me. I personally believe that all dogs can benefit from that kind of enthusiasm. It makes the hour of training just that much more enjoyable for the trainer as well as the dog.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

You're in New Jersey? I'm surprised you can't find anyone training the way you want.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

.Just not close enough.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Merciel said:


> There's no reason you can't use the play-based and motivational techniques to train pet dogs, though. They work perfectly well for that purpose and my experience has been that yes, you do get a happier and more engaged training partner using that approach, even if you never end up in the competition ring.


I agree, if everyone trained with engagement and enthusiasm, there would be more progress made and the dog would be more willing to push the handler for more. 
I think so many pet people squash any enthusiasm their dogs have out of fear of being challenged or losing the 'alpha' role.
I hate how some of the pet trainers try to keep the dogs status below the handler instead of stressing the fact that they are a team.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes totally agree with you both Merciel and Onyx Girl. 


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Sri,

Great thread and I agree with you and others, there is a difference in enthusiasm between casual owners and those who want to compete.

I've heard it referred to by experienced trainers in terms of "relationship" the owner has with his dog. Dogs that lack enthusiasm also seem to check out and not pay attention to their owners as much. 

Sounds like relationship based training is a good business opportunity for someone in your area!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I trained with some very serious competitive obedience people. They were all about compulsion corrections then praise and the dogs were flat, submissive the pressure was obvious in their demeanor. 
When I started training with them, it was to have a spotter, and critique my footwork and handling skills(I was training in IPO but needed to work my dog midweek so chose to work with the obedience trainers)
I was doing tug, drive building/capping and it was a lightbulb moment for one of my trainers. She saw a different way to train.
She decided to get on board with this type and sought out Bridget Carlsen who holds workshops often. Bridget also has the same lines of retrievers that she has, so they were aquaintences. What a difference in her dog after a few months training with Bridget and her methods. 
Bridget tries to make the training as far from 'factory work' as possible yet the dogs need to know they have to increase their stamina. 
Bridget is filling a niche in the obedience world.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Sri,
> 
> Great thread and I agree with you and others, there is a difference in enthusiasm between casual owners and those who want to compete.
> 
> ...



Haha. Yes I have thought about that! I wish some good trainer would come here though first. The couple of places that I have been to that do sports(agility or rally) dont really show how to build that relationship and enthusiasm even in their foundation classes.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I trained with some very serious competitive obedience people. They were all about compulsion corrections then praise and the dogs were flat, submissive the pressure was obvious in their demeanor.
> When I started training with them, it was to have a spotter, and critique my footwork and handling skills(I was training in IPO but needed to work my dog midweek so chose to work with the obedience trainers)
> I was doing tug, drive building/capping and it was a lightbulb moment for one of my trainers. She saw a different way to train.
> She decided to get on board with this type and sought out Bridget Carlsen who holds workshops often. Bridget also has the same lines of retrievers that she has, so they were aquaintences. What a difference in her dog after a few months training with Bridget and her methods.
> ...



That's what I'm saying!


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Oh wow...I thought that style of training had become far more popular and accepted in those venues. I guess I'm pretty lucky because I've only been training with IPO trainers who really emphasize relationship and training for happy enthusiastic performance.




Sri said:


> Haha. Yes I have thought about that! I wish some good trainer would come here though first. The couple of places that I have been to that do *sports(agility or rally) dont really show how to build that relationship and enthusiasm even in their foundation classes*.


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## DJEtzel (Feb 11, 2010)

Sri said:


> Haha. Yes I have thought about that! I wish some good trainer would come here though first. The couple of places that I have been to that do sports(agility or rally) dont really show how to build that relationship and enthusiasm even in their foundation classes.


You should come to our agility classes!


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> You should come to our agility classes!




I wish I could!


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

Sri said:


> The couple of places that I have been to that do sports(agility or rally) dont really show how to build that relationship and enthusiasm even in their foundation classes.


That's unfortunately pretty common, because most sport foundation classes are geared toward learning the basic handling skills (for the person) and the foundational targeting/platform/etc. skills (for the dog). Even the trainers who personally use a lot of motivational games with their dogs (and I _know_ there are a lot of those trainers in your area, because I run into them all the time on the Rally circuit) might not cover them in the classes they teach.

You may find that online classes are a better place to focus specifically on relationship-building skills and games. FDSA has a number of classes directed at that topic, since the whole goal of that school is to get people into the ring and performing at high levels with happy, enthusiastic dogs and zero force or coercion. As a result, the instructors there are really _really_ good at developing those relationships and teaching their students how to accomplish the same.

Agility U also has some foundational courses that are more geared toward developing the handler's training skills and the dog-handler relationship than teaching specific agility skills, but I have not taken any classes there so I can't vouch for that firsthand. I hear good things, though.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Merciel said:


> That's unfortunately pretty common, because most sport foundation classes are geared toward learning the basic handling skills (for the person) and the foundational targeting/platform/etc. skills (for the dog). Even the trainers who personally use a lot of motivational games with their dogs (and I _know_ there are a lot of those trainers in your area, because I run into them all the time on the Rally circuit) might not cover them in the classes they teach.
> 
> You may find that online classes are a better place to focus specifically on relationship-building skills and games. FDSA has a number of classes directed at that topic, since the whole goal of that school is to get people into the ring and performing at high levels with happy, enthusiastic dogs and zero force or coercion. As a result, the instructors there are really _really_ good at developing those relationships and teaching their students how to accomplish the same.
> 
> Agility U also has some foundational courses that are more geared toward developing the handler's training skills and the dog-handler relationship than teaching specific agility skills, but I have not taken any classes there so I can't vouch for that firsthand. I hear good things, though.



Thanks! I did look through FDSA because of an earlier post by you. And I am taking one course there now. looking to take more. 

I think most of these skills are perhaps taught in privates rather than group lessons. Its nice to pick up from watching the videos of some of the top trainers. 

I was just wishing that a few of these skills are taught to everyone in basic obedience as well. It would make a lot of difference to all dogs and owners. When I am out walking a few peple have approached me about how terribly their own dog is or inattentive, and they say 'oh we did classes, it didn't really help. I guess thats just the kind of dog he is.' So hard to convince them that it goes beyond just what is taught in those classes. On the other hand, not eveyone wants to focus entirely on their dog during a walk or when .playing ball.


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## Merciel (Apr 25, 2013)

I honestly don't know if they get taught in many classes at all.

Most of the sport classes I've taken were done in 60-minute blocks. There were anywhere from 2 to 12 students in the class. Each student is only getting so much attention from the instructor(s), and most of the focus has been on "okay here's how you get a right finish" or "here's how you do a front cross" or whatever. It's the sport-specific skills that get the most attention, because that's what people are there to learn.

On occasion I've had instructors who tried to pause for a minute to focus on engagement, and I have seen students complain about that because (as one lady said), "that's not what I came here to learn."

And if people are saying that in _sport_ classes, you can imagine how much pet owners are not interested in froofy unnecessary stuff when they just want the dog to quit pulling on leash (or whatever). If your clients want to know how to get a result with the smallest possible amount of effort and involvement on their part, well... they probably don't want to hear about this stuff. Motivational training relies on an owner who _wants_ to train their dog and has fun doing it -- and (crazy as it sounds!) a lot of people just don't find that enjoyable.

Anyway, I'm glad you're giving FDSA a try and I hope it's working out for you! 

I would guess that Deb Jones's Performance Fundamentals class might be a good place to learn about some of these topics, or Denise's Bridging The Gap if you're looking for a more advanced take on the subject. (I did BTG previously and it is _intense_ but really, really good. I still haven't done any of Deb's classes, but I think LeoRose on this board is in one of them, so maybe ask her if you want feedback on the teaching style?)


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Merciel said:


> I honestly don't know if they get taught in many classes at all.
> 
> Most of the sport classes I've taken were done in 60-minute blocks. There were anywhere from 2 to 12 students in the class. Each student is only getting so much attention from the instructor(s), and most of the focus has been on "okay here's how you get a right finish" or "here's how you do a front cross" or whatever. It's the sport-specific skills that get the most attention, because that's what people are there to learn.
> 
> ...



Yeah, sure I will ask. Since I keep going through Control Unleashed demos by Leslie, and did a few privates with Pam Dennison, I wonder if I will do okay with BTG.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm taking the FDSA class "Get Focused" (taught by Deb Jones) at the bonze level. I'm working with two very different dogs. 

Ilka, my mutt, is a fairly high drive, high energy dog, but is also very reactive. She's actually retired from competition obedience and rally because of her reactivity, but she still needs to be kept busy. 

Leo, my GSD, is a rescued "BYB special", and she has a much lower drive and energy level. She also has the attention span of a gnat. Well, actually, the gnat's might be better. She had zero interest in doing anything with me. I have worked on building up her drive, and the "Get Focused" class is helping even more. 

I try hard to not resort to "old school" techniques, because I have found that both of them can shut down on me if I'm too harsh. And I always feel bad afterwards, because it was usually my fault.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks LeoRose. I think my dog is medium drive medium energy. Although Im not sure about the drive, he is very into ball, tug, anything that moves, totally focussed while play, during which I do obedience as well. I dont like the old school training either. I would rather have him be enthusiastic about obeying me.

I skipped the Get Focused in favor of BAT. But I do want to do Get Focused as well. Unfortunately none of the focus classes are being offered for the next round of classes ( or so it seemed)

Have you watched the Control Unleashed game demos DVDs?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Maybe you need to get involved in IPO. 

My group basic OB class heavily emphasized happy, focused dogs, but it was taught by an IPO trainer, even though the class was for all breeds basic OB he brought that style of training (mostly modeled on Michael Ellis's methods)

It was funny too because the trainer who was a big muscular guy with a deep voice would demonstrate with a dog the 'happy dance'. He'd be all happy and bouncy using a higher pitched voice and we all would snicker a little. 

It was SO MUCH FUN! For just about everyone too. 

Such a shame that it's not easily found in other venues, IMHO, beginners are missing out on something that is really positive and beneficial for the dogs and owners that translates well to what ever you want to do with your dog.



Sri said:


> Thanks! I did look through FDSA because of an earlier post by you. And I am taking one course there now. looking to take more.
> 
> I think most of these skills are perhaps taught in privates rather than group lessons. Its nice to pick up from watching the videos of some of the top trainers.
> 
> *I was just wishing that a few of these skills are taught to everyone in basic obedience as well. *It would make a lot of difference to all dogs and owners. When I am out walking a few peple have approached me about how terribly their own dog is or inattentive, and they say 'oh we did classes, it didn't really help. I guess thats just the kind of dog he is.' So hard to convince them that it goes beyond just what is taught in those classes. On the other hand, not eveyone wants to focus entirely on their dog during a walk or when .playing ball.


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## LeoRose (Jan 10, 2013)

Sri said:


> -------Have you watched the Control Unleashed game demos DVDs?


No, I haven't. I'd love to be able to find a Control Unleashed class in the area for Ilka, but I have my choice of PetsMart (they do actually have one good trainer that I like), Petco, or an "old school" style trainer, none of which is suitable for her.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Do try to watch the dvd. You can even rent them from
Bowwowflix.com. Its a nice set of games that you can expand from your house to other venues for engagement walks. Parks. Parking lots, etc. 


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Maybe you need to get involved in IPO.
> 
> My group basic OB class heavily emphasized happy, focused dogs, but it was taught by an IPO trainer, even though the class was for all breeds basic OB he brought that style of training (mostly modeled on Michael Ellis's methods)
> 
> ...




Nice! Yes, maybe I do need to get involved in IPO. But my life is so busy I dont think I will compete with the dog, just try to keep him busy till his personality stabilises.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I was at training yesterday and thinking back I have a better picture of why “pet training” doesn’t really like to up the drive and be “happy” so to say…
I’m working obedience with my dog because at this point he needs to learn that he only gets to bite when I say he does. He’s got a couple AKC titles, so his heeling is great, he knows everything that I could ask of him, and with the helper out on the field with us…he’s doing things super fast, super accurate, but with almost no attention to me (something to work on). He listens, he’s flashy, but he looks like he could break at any second. It’s clear that he wants to do something else, and he will get to do it, but he has to do some other things before he gets to do what he wants.
It kind of looks like he’s not that obedient, he’s just going through “motions” and it’s clear he wants to do something else. A dog that isn’t in drive, that’s just doing what’s asked, in some ways, looks more obedient. One that isn’t thinking about doing anything but following the owner in a heel, sitting when told, staying when told, ect.
The obedience we were showing, in high drive, could look dangerous to the general public. The dog is clearly excited, and excited means unpredictable in most people’s eyes.


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I was at training yesterday and thinking back I have a better picture of why “pet training” doesn’t really like to up the drive and be “happy” so to say…
> I’m working obedience with my dog because at this point he needs to learn that he only gets to bite when I say he does. He’s got a couple AKC titles, so his heeling is great, he knows everything that I could ask of him, and with the helper out on the field with us…he’s doing things super fast, super accurate, but with almost no attention to me (something to work on). He listens, he’s flashy, but he looks like he could break at any second. It’s clear that he wants to do something else, and he will get to do it, but he has to do some other things before he gets to do what he wants.
> It kind of looks like he’s not that obedient, he’s just going through “motions” and it’s clear he wants to do something else. A dog that isn’t in drive, that’s just doing what’s asked, in some ways, looks more obedient. One that isn’t thinking about doing anything but following the owner in a heel, sitting when told, staying when told, ect.
> The obedience we were showing, in high drive, could look dangerous to the general public. The dog is clearly excited, and excited means unpredictable in most people’s eyes.



I have so little experience with anything, so excuse me if I am wrong. From the few videos I have watched and competition books I read, isn't the first thing taught engagement and focus? Like leash work(which I am guessing would move on to offleash)... keep an eye on me as I move, etc. Isnt it like a game? Throwing the ball or tug would follow from watching us and following our commands? And play comes only when they have enough impulse control to sit and down instantly, etc? I might be wrong and have the entirely wrong idea?


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## Sri (Apr 25, 2013)

martemchik said:


> I was at training yesterday and thinking back I have a better picture of why “pet training” doesn’t really like to up the drive and be “happy” so to say…
> I’m working obedience with my dog because at this point he needs to learn that he only gets to bite when I say he does. He’s got a couple AKC titles, so his heeling is great, he knows everything that I could ask of him, and with the helper out on the field with us…he’s doing things super fast, super accurate, but with almost no attention to me (something to work on). He listens, he’s flashy, but he looks like he could break at any second. It’s clear that he wants to do something else, and he will get to do it, but he has to do some other things before he gets to do what he wants.
> It kind of looks like he’s not that obedient, he’s just going through “motions” and it’s clear he wants to do something else. A dog that isn’t in drive, that’s just doing what’s asked, in some ways, looks more obedient. One that isn’t thinking about doing anything but following the owner in a heel, sitting when told, staying when told, ect.
> The obedience we were showing, in high drive, could look dangerous to the general public. The dog is clearly excited, and excited means unpredictable in most people’s eyes.




I think I understand now what you mean about the drive, and how that would make a difference. Would most of the pets fall under medium or much lower drive than the ones bred for competing?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

My theory is that you need to throw obedience in during play. That way, obedience is fun, it’s a game, it’s not boring. So its playing (building drive), draw the dog into a position, say the command, praise, release, give the toy. My boy was first trained in obedience without any thought of IPO, and it was before I truly learned how to train in the “happy way.” So there has been some retraining, and luckily my boy is extremely resilient. I should’ve worked on the focus first, but I didn’t know I was going to be competing (I thought I was just training a pet), so now I’m re-doing it.
The thing about IPO is that there is a very delicate balance between foundational obedience work and the bite work. If you do too much obedience before introducing the helper, the dog is going to be thinking more rather than just reacting on instinct. You can even sometimes see this when a dog has had too much obedience that they start to look for the handler instead of focusing completely on the decoy during certain exercises. At the same time, if you don’t do enough obedience, your dog will go into extremely high drive and be very hard to handle because all it wants is one thing, and absolutely NOTHING in this world is as great as getting that bite in on the helper.
In general, pets are lower drive (if you’re considering other breeds) but it really doesn’t matter. You can build drive in a dog, maybe not to the levels that a Malanois or a higher drive GSD has, but you can still use some sort of drive other than food to train other breeds. But, if you’re discussing competition, sometimes it’s not fair to even talk about other breeds because there really are only a few breeds out there that “dominate” the obedience trials. You kind of do need to have something with higher drive to fully utilize these methods and to win these events. Also remember, that although it looks better, and I’m sure the judge subconsciously gives more points to “happy” dogs. In the AKC ring, they really don’t care about the demeanor of the dog…in fact, apathy is kind of rewarded because any type of drive leaking is supposed to be penalized.

I've noticed you introduce toys and play later, once the dog is a bit more solid after using treats because a young dog gets distracted very easily by a toy and it doesn't really "learn." It's almost like you can see the command go in one ear, and out the other. Once the dog is older, and you want nice, quick, flashy, accurate, you have a toy. The dog does what its supposed to, release and reward. Dog doesn't do it, mark, withhold reward, try again.


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