# Petco and e collars



## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

Did anyone else see that Petco has decided to stop selling e / shock collars ? I’m based in Europe - and here (I can only speak for England and Holland) shock collars (and even prong collars) aren’t used by the mass public. I’m sometimes horrified to see how many people in America use both as daily tools just out of sheer laziness and incompetence as dog handlers. So I’m very happy to hear about the stance Petco is taking and I can only hope other large pet stores follow suit. Don’t get me wrong - an aggressive/reactive dog where standard corrections aren’t working, who you have already dedicated time and energy working with - and with the help of a proper trainer, then an e collar is definitely a great tool. It’s a last resort, or a tool to only be used if you really know what your doing. More so- half the stuff I’ve seen the average person using in America is some cheap shock collar with hardly any levels. Don’t even get me started with the people that use prong collars on their dogs as the every day/every minute of the day collar. It’s abuse. (Prong collars are illegal here in Holland to be used on a pet). I follow an American German shepherd kennel Vom Hismerh (he also breeds Doberman’s) and he posts a lot of his customers puppies - and almost all of them have prong collars and e collars on their young pups (saw one that was just 6 months). I just don’t get it. I know I’m probably going to be opening the flood gates here with people who are very pro but thought it was a great thing to read today.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Following.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

Well, I completely disagree. Tools, even a flat collar can be abused.
If the e-collar is cranked up and the handler lights up the dog to induce pain or fear, then you are correct. If you see how top trainers employ the tool using low levels of stim, where the tool is more for communication than for punishment, then you are incorrect.
Ever notice that some of the very best trainers on earth use them? Bart Bellon, Michael Ellis, Ivan Balabanov, Deb Zappia.....don't know who they are? One Belgian ring Champion, a National champion, A World champion in French Ring , oh, and a world champion in IPO.

The e-collar when used properly, is a communication tool, allowing the trainer to tap the dog on the shoulder from any distance. By the way, same story with prong collars.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

It seems you have been given the impression that prongs and e collars were specifically created and meant to be applied as cruel torture devices.Nothing could be further from the truth.I don't doubt there are owners and trainers out there that use these tools among others in an abusive manner, but the fact is that is not the norm.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

Jorski said:


> Well, I completely disagree. Tools, even a flat collar can be abused.
> If the e-collar is cranked up and the handler lights up the dog to induce pain or fear, then you are correct. If you see how top trainers employ the tool using low levels of stim, where the tool is more for communication than for punishment, then you are incorrect.
> Ever notice that some of the very best trainers on earth use them? Bart Bellon, Michael Ellis, Ivan Balibov, Deb Zappia.....don't know who they are? One Belgian ring Champion, a National champion, A World champion in French Ring , oh, and a world champion in IPO.
> 
> The e-collar when used properly, is a communication tool, allowing the trainer to tap the dog on the shoulder from any distance. By the way, same story with prong collars.


My thread is about the average dog owner (which is the majority of dog owners- only a small percentage actually work their dogs - not just talking gsds here). i think top trainers are professionals - they aren’t every day pet owners. Professionals who know what they are doing with shock collar/prong is a completely different story. Most of them inc Michael Ellis will also say not to use those tools on young dogs while they are still forming. I’m talking about the average joe and the average dog. Neither needs it. A dog with problems - then go to a trainer, and if a professional thinks it’s necessary then that’s fine.


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## binBanned (Oct 6, 2020)

"I do not exclude or twist the facts or the power of positive punishment, because dogs do not need a “special introduction” to punishment. A five week old puppy that lives with his mom and litter mates has already been introduced to positive punishment through direct and very natural interaction. Maybe the pup decided to eat when it was not feeding time, or got too close to Mom’s toy (just to name few examples). 

We the humans do not need to take sides as to whether punishment is “humane” or if it works. We do not need behavioral scientists to waste money on biased experiments. If you have ever observed a dam with her puppies, you know very well that punishment works brilliantly just as positive reinforcement in the great grand scheme we call learning. We can learn much from a mother dog, as nature has gifted her with the skills to teach those puppies to respect her rules without ever developing a chronic fear of her. Both positive reinforcement and punishment have their advantages and disadvantages: punishment is better for suppressing behavior, positive reinforcement better for generating behavior; avoidance (punishment) schedules tend to produce more persistent behavior than reward schedules, and so on. 

The effects of positive reinforcement also dissipate when the reinforcement is withdrawn, and there is no positive-reinforcement procedure (including all differential reinforcement procedures) that produces such persistent behavior as a negative reinforcement schedule. Just as any other form of learning, Positive Reinforcement protocols can also provoke aggression and have undesired side effects. 

There are plenty of arguments on both sides, but the net conclusion is that the scientific evidence is neutral in deciding between reward and punishment. Favoring reward over punishment is inconsistent with science and the basic laws of learning. Wouldn’t be great to learn and have the freedom to choose between negative and/or positive, reinforcement and/or punishment, to move smoothly and instinctively across the training quadrants, knowing just what to do when unwanted and sometimes very dangerous behaviors must stop? Or to know for certain when one approach will work and the other will not? Any scientist studying dogs, any animal behaviorist or dog training guru who purports to advise you exactly what to do and how to train overall (advocating that one size fits all) is nothing more than a snake oil salesman." - Ivan Balabonov

Full Article here: All Positive Training or Old School Training - What's best for my dog? - Malinois


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GSDnewbieNero said:


> My thread is about the average dog owner (which is the majority of dog owners- only a small percentage actually work their dogs - not just talking gsds here). i think top trainers are professionals - they aren’t every day pet owners. Professionals who know what they are doing with shock collar/prong is a completely different story. Most of them inc Michael Ellis will also say not to use those tools on young dogs while they are still forming. I’m talking about the average joe and the average dog. Neither needs it. A dog with problems - then go to a trainer, and if a professional thinks it’s necessary then that’s fine.


Too many pet trainers recommend them too fast too, being rapid results oriented vs what is best for the dog and the owner.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

MineAreWorkingline said:


> Too many pet trainers recommend them too fast too being rapid results oriented vs what is best for the dog and the owner.


That’s very sad to hear. Boils down to laziness I think. I’m not sure how it is in the states - I just know here in Holland / England that it really is seen as a last resort for the average joe. I’ve yet seen a dog here in Holland with an e collar while having its walk. The only one I saw was an expat family who came from Boston and they had one on their dog to stop him running away.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

I wasn't saying to use them on "young dogs". It is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. An "average Joe" can certainly learn to use them safely and properly. Who cares if some pet store chain stops selling them? Have you ever watched how bad the training is at those chain stores?
Perhaps it is better if they sold online and through training facilities and clubs. After all, you don't see bite sleeves or flirt poles at those stores either. 
This idea that has become pervasive that all training tools are evil, and that you should only train like Zak George is in part responsible for the many poorly behaved dogs I see on harnesses lunging at every passing person and dog.

Larry Krohn had a couple of livestreams on this very topic the last two nights (you find them on youtube).....
Best thing he said, "_if you are a good trainer, an e-collar will make you better. If you are a bad trainer, it will make you worse"_


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

Jorski said:


> I wasn't saying to use them on "young dogs". It is a tool, nothing more and nothing less. An "average Joe" can certainly learn to use them safely and properly. Who cares if some pet store chain stops selling them? Have you ever watched how bad the training is at those chain stores?
> Perhaps it is better if they sold online and through training facilities and clubs. After all, you don't see bite sleeves or flirt poles at those stores either.
> This idea that has become pervasive that all training tools are evil, and that you should only train like Zak George is in part responsible for the many poorly behaved dogs I see on harnesses lunging at every passing person and dog.
> 
> ...


Why would an average dog owner with an average dog need one? Doesn’t it go hand in hand that when you decide to take a dog into your house, you also take responsibility for training it the basics? Recall, basic obedience and socialisation. When would you need those devices then? I saw someone argue that they had a shock collar on their dog so that when their dog saw a squirrel he wouldn’t pull her down the street. This argument was presented for a reason why its bad that Petco is stopping the selling of e collars. That sounds like she just has zero control of her dog.
Obviously people can buy it then online but perhaps by not normalising it, people will start to realise that it’s not the only way and maybe try just taking the time to actually train their dog. And Zak George is the absolute total end of the spectrum - there’s a middle ground.


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## SnoopDog (Oct 7, 2020)

"Punishment is effective!
Punishment has, and ALWAYS will play an irreplaceable part of learning as well as dog training.
There are two general types of punishment, Negative Punishment and Positive Punishment
Punishment does NOT equal animal cruelty or abuse!
Puppies are punished by their moms as early as few weeks old.
Generally speaking by the age of only 4 weeks old ALL puppies have already experienced positive punishment as well as Negative Reinforcement (escape avoidance learning). These lessons are learned way before the Owner begins “training”. "

"If anyone _REALLY CARE_ Instead of looking what type of collar is on the dogs neck, look at the dog itself, look inside and out, its demeanor, emotional and physical state, then you will know if something is wrong. Let’s protect only dogs from the people that abuse them and provide information to educate those that want to learn how to train dogs. Leave dog training, dog sports, dog breeding to us - the dog trainers, and dog breeders, after all we are the ones that REALLY CARE!!! "

- *Ivan Balabanov*






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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

There indeed is a middle ground, but if you learn how the trainers that I mentioned use the e-collar, you would see that their use is the middle ground. Far from the mid-evil torture device imagined.

Can you train a dog to a high level without an e-collar? Sure you can. Can you be more effective, say in prey drive situations with one? Yup


One thing I am sure of...on this issue, one side rarely, if ever convinces the other side.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am very happy that they have stopped selling them. They sold them actually at the check out so people didn't even have to search for them and could buy them on impulse. To use an E-Collar you need to educate yourself and follow a list of steps to do it right. Without this, many dogs suffer needlessly without resulting in success. In the past, while living in NL, trainers needed to have a license to use them. Don't know about the current requirements.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

GSDnewbieNero said:


> Why would an average dog owner with an average dog need one? Doesn’t it go hand in hand that when you decide to take a dog into your house, you also take responsibility for training it the basics? Recall, basic obedience and socialisation. When would you need those devices then? I saw someone argue that they had a shock collar on their dog so that when their dog saw a squirrel he wouldn’t pull her down the street. This argument was presented for a reason why its bad that Petco is stopping the selling of e collars. That sounds like she just has zero control of her dog.
> Obviously people can buy it then online but perhaps by not normalising it, people will start to realise that it’s not the only way and maybe try just taking the time to actually train their dog. And Zak George is the absolute total end of the spectrum - there’s a middle ground.


If you would mention training leash pressure to that woman, her eyes would glaze over as she stared into the distance.


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## SnoopDog (Oct 7, 2020)

"How could anyone believe that banning any equipment will prevent dog abuse? It is the person, and everyone understands it. No - bragging about banning training equipment does not automatically make you a good person and animal lover in my book! If you really are one, then you should focus on educating yourself first and then educating those that don't know better.
Who really believes that banning training equipment = reduced dog abuse?!? "

-Ivan Balabanov 









Ivan Balabanov


How could anyone believe that banning any equipment will prevent dog abuse? It is the person, and everyone understands it. No - bragging about banning training equipment does not automatically make...




www.facebook.com


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

My trainer recommended I get an e-collar for Willow to help with her recall. The trainer convinced me...my main desire for one was because I let Willow off-leash a lot and needed to be able to recall her from chasing wildlife. I especially wanted one because I anticipated going on a lot of backpacking trips with her, and absolutely needed to keep her from chasing deer or running into precarious situations.

I had Willow wear the collar for a few weeks to get used to it, but my trainer and I had a hard time getting together again to go over training ME how to use the collar. So now it's been like 6 months and we've never used it, and it's collecting dust and I'm trying to sell it because turns out Willow stays really close to me and will not chase stuff on our backpacking trips, and I can call her off from deer with a simple "leave it", or leash her back up in especially tempting situations. So, so far I haven't needed an e-collar and I regret my trainer talking me into buying one cuz they ain't cheap.

Can ALL dogs be trained with reliable recall without one? I dunno. I think I will agree with what others have said, that when used correctly, they're just a communication device and not painful. But I guess maybe it would also be good to require people know how to use them properly before they can get one. But then...yes, even flat collars (or prong collars) can be abused.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

Jorski said:


> There indeed is a middle ground, but if you learn how the trainers that I mentioned use the e-collar, you would see that their use is the middle ground. Far from the mid-evil torture device imagine.
> 
> Can you train a dog to a high level without an e-collar? Sure you can. Can you be more effective, say in prey drive situations with one? Yup
> 
> ...


I agree with what you say here - but I think the reason why it’s been banned (I think) 12 countries now, because the majority of people don’t use it correctly. Correctly used - it’s a great tool to elevate your dogs behaviour. But I don’t think the vast majority of people need that sort of behaviour from their dog, and so don’t need one. And yes we will probably never convince each other but I’d be interested to hear from someone the reason for using it in their day to day life.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I have seen people excell with their dogs without using a Pinch or E collar. There is this one great trainer I know and she said that both are only needed rarely and you have to know how to use them properly and how to faze them out.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

It's been banned because the countries have caved to animal rights activists like PETA, who believes there shouldn't be any pets. It's been banned because people have not stood up for their rights as pet owners and have allowed the fur mommies to convince the masses that dogs are just furry little humans. There was some pretty important verbiage in the Petco announcement that goes far beyond the ecollars. People need to educate themselves on what the real deal is.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

These kinds of threads are discouraging because they show a complete lack of understanding of training tools and when they are appropriate. Just get rid of all of them and punish dogs who could benefit from correct use of a training tool. Prongs and e dollars are a last resort for the average dog owner, but hunters use e’s often to make sure their dogs are foolproof on recall in possibly dangerous situations. I would rather see someone use a prong or an e with training and understanding than see a dog completely out of control and possibly dangerous to others or to the owner.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Jax08 said:


> It's been banned because the countries have caved to animal rights activists like PETA, who believes there shouldn't be any pets. It's been banned because people have not stood up for their rights as pet owners and have allowed the fur mommies to convince the masses that dogs are just furry little humans. There was some pretty important verbiage in the Petco announcement that goes far beyond the ecollars. People need to educate themselves on what the real deal is.


I agree.

Here is their press release. Look at what they are using this ban to sell— their flawed training program and other services. According to Petco, we are all “pet parents.” 









Stop the Shock: Petco Ends the Sale of Electronic "Shock" Collars, Firmly Establishes itself as the Health and Wellness Company for Pets


Petco today announced it has stopped selling specific electronic "shock" collars, strengthening its commitment to positive reinforcement training methods and solidifying the company's evolution...




about.petco.com


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

I actually hate PETA with a passion and think they are monsters😑


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

There are quite a few threads on this topic already,so it's likely unless the folks that have experience with these tools feel like going over it for the umpteenth time, there may not be a lot of anecdotes.
Many make good use of e collars to keep their dogs safe from poisonous snakes,moose,bear,kangaroos,chasing wildlife and livestock. These are everyday occurrences for some of us.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

I hope the OP is very successful with her puppy and never needs to use a training tool other than a flat collar and a leash. And that is the last I am going to post in this thread.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Just to be clear, if it matters, I am not against E collars. But it should not be so convenient to reach for them so easily and without proper instruction. I use one for Deja as it it the only thing that prevents her from killing wildlife or herself being killed.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> It's been banned because the countries have caved to animal rights activists like PETA, who believes there shouldn't be any pets. It's been banned because people have not stood up for their rights as pet owners and have allowed the fur mommies to convince the masses that dogs are just furry little humans. There was some pretty important verbiage in the Petco announcement that goes far beyond the ecollars. People need to educate themselves on what the real deal is.


Wow, big loss. They sold the cheapest crap on the market that no one should have bought anyway. They should pull their prongs too.


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## Shadow Shep (Apr 16, 2020)

Yeah, I think they should still be used if it's for the dogs own safety though. There's actually a dog I would use one on here where I live. He tries to chase cars.


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## MineAreWorkingline (May 2, 2015)

Shadow Shep said:


> I actually hate PETA with a passion and think they are monsters😑


PETA has helped a lot of abused animals when others could not or would not get involved.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve Strom said:


> Wow, big loss. They sold the cheapest crap on the market that no one should have bought anyway. They should pull their prongs too.


The products are total crap. Petsmart and Petco should not sell those or give dog training lessons. Or do anything other than sell blingy collars and beds.

But did you read the actual announcement that went out to the fur mommies of the world? That's the important part.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Steve Strom said:


> Wow, big loss. They sold the cheapest crap on the market that no one should have bought anyway. They should pull their prongs too.


That was my big thing. Petco did not sell e collars that should be used by anybody, I dont think. 

However, I am concerned with the accompanying email that does seem to lean toward banning the whole tool.

I also just saw a thing about how they were having collections for people to turn in their punishment devices in the UK. Like prong collar collections.

We should all keep our ear to the ground and watch for movements to ban this stuff altogether.

There are a bunch of oppressive pet dog trainers who are, in my opinion, not doing the world any favors by squashing every behavior a dog has until it's a robot.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Jax08 said:


> The products are total crap. Petsmart and Petco should not sell those or give dog training lessons. Or do anything other than sell blingy collars and beds.
> 
> But did you read the actual announcement that went out to the fur mommies of the world? That's the important part.


Yeah, I read it. We're so buried in that crap around here, I'm honestly surprised they're just now doing this.


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## Thecowboysgirl (Nov 30, 2006)

Petco ends sale of electronic shock collars, calls on competitors to also 'Stop the Shock' with online petition


Petco is no longer selling electronic "shock" collars and is calling on the pet industry and consumers to join its "Stop the Shock" movement.



www.usatoday.com


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Thecowboysgirl said:


> That was my big thing. Petco did not sell e collars that should be used by anybody, I dont think.
> 
> However, I am concerned with the accompanying email that does seem to lean toward banning the whole tool.
> 
> ...


Yeah, these same fights over and over again drive me crazy.


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## Steve Strom (Oct 26, 2013)

Shadow Shep said:


> Yeah, I think they should still be used if it's for the dogs own safety though. There's actually a dog I would use one on here where I live. He tries to chase cars.


Look at it a little differently, beyond that narrow premise. There are reasons why any tool could very well be the best option for dogs and owners. Doing some things the clearest, easiest way possible has benefits. Think about more then just what some people post about it being a last resort or for emergencies.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

I wouldn't be buying a shock collar or prong collar from Petco, anyway. I wouldn't even consider. 
A tool is an instrument used for convenience. It's not necessary,(In most cases) and sure: you can teach a dog recall without it. The idea of such tools isn't focused on their necessity, but on their convenience and advantage. 
I don't think the people who use the "e-collar" as the no. 1 solution to every problem is right, nor do I think "purely positive" is the no.1 solution to every problem. 
There's a balance. 
Unexperienced people should not be using either. If you can't learn to use it properly, don't use it at all. It that case it would do more harm than good.


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## Damicodric (Apr 13, 2013)

Jorski said:


> those


“Who cares if some pet store chain stops selling them? Have you ever watched how bad the training is at those chain stores”?

Jorski. Game. Set. Match. Well done.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I am very happy that they have stopped selling them. They sold them actually at the check out so people didn't even have to search for them and could buy them on impulse. To use an E-Collar you need to educate yourself and follow a list of steps to do it right. Without this, many dogs suffer needlessly without resulting in success. In the past, while living in NL, trainers needed to have a license to use them. Don't know about the current requirements.


I only just googled it last night but they’ve been banned since July this year. If your dog is found with one on - it’s a 20,000€ fine or prison sentence for animal cruelty.


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## GSDnewbieNero (Aug 1, 2020)

Kathrynil said:


> I wouldn't be buying a shock collar or prong collar from Petco, anyway. I wouldn't even consider.
> A tool is an instrument used for convenience. It's not necessary,(In most cases) and sure: you can teach a dog recall without it. The idea of such tools isn't focused on their necessity, but on their convenience and advantage.
> I don't think the people who use the "e-collar" as the no. 1 solution to every problem is right, nor do I think "purely positive" is the no.1 solution to every problem.
> There's a balance.
> Unexperienced people should not be using either. If you can't learn to use it properly, don't use it at all. It that case it would do more harm than good.


And I think your comment actually explains what I meant by this thread. A tool like an e or prong collar - is exactly that, a tool. But it does require more knowledge than a flat collar and because of that- it shouldn’t be so readily available or be the solution for every dog owner. If someone is planning on just walking their dog around the block twice a day - they will never need either of those tools. Any person can train their dog how to do that. If you plan on going hunting with your dog - then yes, it’s a tool that will probably save your dogs life. But if you’ve trained your dog how to go hunting with you, I’m sure you’ve also taken the time to educate yourself how an e collar properly works and your not buying some discounted plastic thing from Petco. I think there’s a good middle ground - I don’t believe all positive trainings are good and I definitely don’t believe fear/aggressive training (like another person posted) is good.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

An e-collar is often the best tool for training fearful dogs. The black and white communication is liberating for them.

No dog needs anything but air, food and water. If you think walking around the block twice a day is a fulfilling life for a dog, we can just agree to disagree. We are on a GSD forum. Confining an active working breed to the house is border line abuse. Dealing with competing motivators without punishment is futile. Yes, there are plenty of tools available. An e-collar allows freedom, flexibility and consistency in training that no other tool allows. 

Learning how to properly use an e-collar isn't rocket surgery. There are plenty of good videos on YouTube.

Yes, petco sold crap collars. No loss there.


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## IllinoisNative (Feb 2, 2010)

Hey, I’m an average pet owner who needed an ecollar. Yes, the general public needs help, too!

I had a dog that wanted to kill other dogs out of fear. He was attacked three times by off leash dogs. It got to the point where most training tools I used were ineffective. The buckle collar? What a joke. I had to body slam an 80lb dog to the ground. Prongs amped him up. A Dominant Collar helped, but didn’t solve the problem. I was at a loss. Walks were horrific for both of us. I needed help.

I ended up sending my dog to Ivan Balabanov’s training center. My dog actually went after their dogs during training. It was bad. He was supposed to be there for 3 weeks. They kept him for 5. They ended up training and using an ecollar on him. What a game changer.

No dog should live in that kind of stress where other dogs were constantly a threat to him. Especially when he previously LOVED other dogs before the first attack.

I don’t “light” him up to get him to cooperate. I’ve tried the ecollar on myself. It’s a sensation that is the equivalent of a tap (warning) to let him know to stop giving the death glare to another dog. It works. Now I love walking my dog.

Don’t judge a tool by those who abuse it. Anything can be abused.


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## Kathrynil (Dec 2, 2019)

David Winners said:


> Dealing with competing motivators without punishment is futile. Yes, there are plenty of tools available. An e-collar allows freedom, flexibility and consistency in training that no other tool allows.
> 
> Learning how to properly use an e-collar isn't rocket surgery. There are plenty of good videos on YouTube.
> 
> Yes, petco sold crap collars. No loss there.


This.

It's more than a life/death situation. It's an advantage situation. If used properly, prong collars and e-collars are an advantage over flat collars. They pose a very efficient, effective, yet humane way to train.
I'm a normal dog owner; I used the prongs very frequently when walking and training my dog. I know how to use them. They were extremely helpful and convenient.
As I said, there's a balance. There should be punishment and positive reinforcement both. First, a dog ought to understand and be able to perform what its handler wants before it is punished for what its handler doesn't want. Make "right" known before you correct the the dog for refusing to comply. And the handler ought to understand and fully know the tool he/she is using.

Some people, despite YouTube's numerous good videos on correct usage, are careless and abusive. I can't help that.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

First off, Petco has amateur at best training. I would never go to them for training advice. They also sell terrible e collars at an insane mark up. Again, no loss there. I'll also say that if you are talking about the average pet, they are terribly trained. Your talking about dogs who don't recall, tear up houses, lunge and try to attack every dog they pass, are big time resource guarders, I could go on for days. The e collar isn't the problem. Its bad owners and trainers. People always say e collars, prongs, and other aversive should be last results. You know how I teach teach a lot of automatic responses I want built into commands without words? Leash pressure, a mild aversive. There is is this implication that using an e collar is zapping your dog to death. That is not the case, and often the furthest thing from the true. You show me your "average" dog trained without any aversive, and odds are I'll probably be looking a dog that could benefit from e collar work. The problem with this is people with little knowledge of training and dog behavior go around acting like experts, influencing the masses into these ridiculous conclusions. Anyone who has done low level stim with a dog will tell you how effective it is. I have experienced the same collars I use on my dogs. I'm also an electrician who knows what its like to get shocked by a wide range of voltages. The mini educator for example, on the max setting is significantly less painful than 110v shock. The battery in your car hurts more. Should people be educated before using one? Sure. You should also learn to drive before you get behind the wheel of a car. The mini came with an incredibly informative manual and DVD. If Petco spent more time actually training dogs instead of peddling their nonsense, pets would be much better off. I don't care that they aren't selling e collars any more. I care that they are peddling non truths. As for dogs being abused by e collars, while that can happen ,it is far from the norm. Dog abuse is much more likely to happen with their hands or random objects around the house.


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## zenpicker (Mar 21, 2019)

Our experience with an e-collar has been mostly positive. We began with conventional training methods and had good luck on most commands, but still had trouble with solid recall and some leash etiquette issues on walks. We aren't pros, but nor are we new at this; Cousteau is our fourth GSD. We understand the critical importance of training and work with him every single day. Yet before introducing the e-collar, despite our best efforts, we did not feel confident in his recall—the #1 life-saving command. It was the only command we couldn't nail reliably, and that worried us.

Before moving to the e-collar we thought long and hard about it, resisting the idea for all the usual reasons (who wants to inflict pain on their dog?). We were also worried about unintended psychological consequences—anxiety, reactivity, aversive behaviors etc. But Cousteau is a very secure dog emotionally, no aggressive tendencies, and was already reliable on an invisible fence. So we decided to give it a try. We sent him for a ten-day board-and-train when he was about 13 months old, then participated in several guided training sessions while continuing to practice on our own.

The results:


On walks, hikes and trips to places like Home Depot we use the vibration-only setting about 75% of the time. He needs a little shock only in the presence of high stimulus, e.g. when greeting his BFFs. Encounters with strange dogs usually do NOT require more than vibration. Thankfully he's good and smart about canine social signals.


His recall is _perfect_ on vibration or a low shock setting (1-2 out of 14 possible levels). Ditto with any other command, though by and large we just use verbal commands and hand signals and these work fine.


There are occasional situations where we need to escalate to a higher shock level, as much as 5 out of 14. This happened the other day when he was distracted with play and didn't notice a car coming. One jolt at that level is all it takes. We immediately crank it back down to vibrate and move on.


Most importantly, he's now a happy two-year-old who doesn't fight the e-collar, and in fact views it as the ticket to a walk. We have noticed no change whatsoever in his secure and sunny temperament. The collar is just part of his world, as best we can tell.
So, we believe in this tool and feel we are able to use it in a way that is not cruel. The freedom he has (and we have!) in walking off leash virtually anywhere is wonderful; we could never trust our last dog to do this, despite literally years of conventional training. (He had a very different temperament, it must be said, with insecurities that contributed to the situations, so it's not a perfect comparison.)

There are some negatives I must note, however:


Without the collar, Cousteau's recall is still iffy. If I were to highlight one flaw in the system, it is this, and I'll be the first to say it's a big one. When the collar's on he's near perfect, but he knows when the collar's NOT on and the verbal Come command or special whistle often isn't enough. The trainer suggested that after a year or so he would generalize the commands and perform them with or without the collar; it's not yet been a year but I suspect this is hype. (We suspected it at the time, too.) So, our own experience has been that it's more of a control tool than a training tool per se. Others may have a different experience, and it's possible that as Cousteau continues to mature and we continue to practice with the collar off, he will improve. We'll see.


This is just a tip, really, applicable to any type of e-collar: Be very careful with use of the beep option if your collar offers one. When we first trained Cousteau on the invisible fence—he was about 6 months old—the trainer used the beep AND the shock, which created a powerful negative association in Cousteau's fuzzy little puppy mind. Guess what? When summer came and we started using our split A/C unit, which beeps when you turn it on with the remote, the poor pup bolted from the room to the farthest corner of the house, in a panic. Every...single...time. Oh, and the electric kettle beeps too, and the car, and and and...it was quite the struggle. We successfully deconditioned him but it took months. So I'd be careful with that option. It's 2020 and we live in a sea of beeping things.
Overall: I don't think the e-collar is any sort of panacea, but it enables us to take our dog into nearly any setting with high confidence and without any apparent negative effect on his emotional stability. We're not inside his head but we've known him since he was nine days old; we can read him pretty well. On the relatively infrequent occasions when we need to apply a shock he seems to take it in stride and perform the behavior we want, no fuss, no agonizing. We're judicious and respectful of him. All that said, we still want his off-collar recall to be much better. It's possible that use of the collar has retarded his progress when training without it. We're working on it and we'll see over time.

I hope this is somewhat helpful. I've appreciated the candid exchange of views in this thread. Thanks to all!


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## dojoson41 (Oct 14, 2018)

and yet Europeans uses spurs/whips/chains/closed mouth bridles on horses/jumping more so then the USA-these can be seen as abusive as well, they eat horses and dogs as well(saw dead skinned dogs hanging in french store windows when I was over there in the 80s). there is NOTHING wrong with prong or e-collars at all. Its ALL about the idiot person who has no training nor idea what they are talking about and force their views on others. you DONT use/leave it on all day every day because you are lazy and dont want to train your dog. its a temporary aid only. I dont know any good e-collar made today that allows more then a half a second low shock-you cant hold the buttons down(guess what they use them on horses as well-cribbers). I own a lot of land and There is NO reliable/foolproof recall ( police/military dogs, the best train dogs in the world are not reliable in recall in real life outside of a fenced in ring your so-called well trained dog isnt either no matter what you think) when your dog is going after wildlife/snakes etc NONE WHAT SO EVER so if I use the e-collar its is NO ONES/stores BUSINESS IF I DO. same goes with a prong collar- and I care more about animals then most humans. People who say these are abusive/cruel are the same people who let their dogs run off leash in public areas, feed their dogs too much/human food, dont use a seat belt/harness for their dogs and let them ride in the front seat on their laps, let their dogs put their heads out of the windows of moving cars, dog running aside you while you are on your bike, jogging with little dogs who cant keep up long and in hot weather-PEOPLE WHO BRING THEIR SMALL DOGS( that I see them get stepped on/kicked out of the way and their owners dont even see it) TO FLEA MARKETS ARE THE WORST ABUSERS!!!!=all of these are abusive to dogs. ps I am one of those who owners has dogs from German shepherd kennel Vom Hismerh and I seen many pictures/owners most who dont use these, I have no idea what you are saying about him-what a owners does after they take their new puppy home and take pictures is not Vom Hismerh's fault/nor his control so there was no reason to blame him or even bring him or any breeder into this-he is a good breeder. PPS PETCO/PETSMART IS THE SAME COMPANY WHO ALLOWS GROOMERS TO KILL PEOPLES DOGS!!!!!


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## Jenny720 (Nov 21, 2014)

Its a good tool to use to proof off leash Recall around wild life if one needs it. Dogs of all different level of drives , opportunities to practice bad behavior, different settings of opportunities that leave little room for error. To have an open mind and skill , talent and gift not to limit oneself if all else fails. There is no dependency with it either if used right and a trainer who uses them would need to be sought out. I would imagine Petco is not the place to seek that instruction nor by one. I saw something on Facebook that Petco is trying to ban all ecollars and not just in their store -they are on a role.


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## Shefali (Aug 12, 2020)

GSDnewbieNero said:


> That’s very sad to hear. Boils down to laziness I think. I’m not sure how it is in the states - I just know here in Holland / England that it really is seen as a last resort for the average joe. I’ve yet seen a dog here in Holland with an e collar while having its walk. The only one I saw was an expat family who came from Boston and they had one on their dog to stop him running away.


It's last resort for me and for most of the people I know. It's not that I would never use these devices, but start with positive training methods. It takes more time and patience, but why get a dog if you're not willing to spend time with him?


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

It amazes me how strong uninformed opinions can be. I'm not singling anyone out here, just talking in general.

Clients often balk at e-collar training, until I strap an e-collar on them and take them through the process. Then they laugh. Literally, they laugh.

Hitting the end of a leash with a flat collar on is more discomfort than low stim training.

It's not about easy. It's not about fast. It's about capability. No equipment in the way. No leash getting tangled. No dog stepping on the leash self correcting at a terrible time. No limitations on distance. Infinitely variable stim not effected by the angle of the leash or the flex in a long line. Negative reinforcement that releases when you want it to, not when the leash goes slack. Tone or vibrate that you can pair with recall, from great distance, over hills, in a storm, by a train or busy road. Very concise communication is possible under a vast array of situations.

Yeah, sounds like a terrible tool to me


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