# still born pups, how common?



## Minnieski

Hi, 

I was just nosing around the net, and I noticed that a breeder had a litter with 2 live and three stillborn pups. I'm wondering how often that happens? Is it more common if the breeding was bad or is it just a fluke thing? I noticed that last month she had a litter (different sire and dam) and had a stillborn pup then too. Just wondering what you think.


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## rokanhaus

I would not say that is normal. In my experiecne with large litters a stillborn or fader is not uncommon. There can be many reasons for losing so many such as stress, complications during delivery, etc so sometimes it just happens, but losing 3 out of 5 pups very sad but certainly not the norm.

I learned a hard lesson once....had two females due at once. First delivered upstairs in the main part of the house. It never occurrred to me this would severely stress the other expectant mom...she was insane to get to those puppies when she heard them cry, couldn't eat, etc...and a few days later, 4 pups out of 10 were stillborn. My fault. She always had big litters before and never that high of a mortality rate.

Anyway, sometimes if a pup gets stuck and the bitch is late getting to the vet for a C section, or oxytocin is injected at the wrong time, you can easily lose pups. If I had a female who consistently showed a high mortality rate, I would seriously consider retiring her from breeding.


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## Chris Wild

Out of our 7 litters, we have had 2 litters with 1 stillborn. The first was obviously underdeveloped for whatever reason and probably would not have been viable anyway. It was obvious that it had been dead a while and hadn't died during whelping. That same litter had another very, very small underdeveloped pup that died a few days after birth. The rest of the litter were all normal sized and healthy and perfectly fine.

The second was perfectly normal and would have been viable, and it was obvious from the look and feel of the stillborn pup that it hadn't been dead long. It was the first pup born after a LONG delay in the middle of whelping a litter, the sack had broken and it drowned in the birth canal.







Had we gotten that pup out sooner it probably would have lived. The 3 pups born afterwards were perfectly fine and healthy. 

So in general I agree with Kandi, while stillborns do happen for a variety of reasons, I wouldn't consider them normal and a very high mortality rate in a litter would indicate something went seriously wrong at some point, and if the bitch regularly had a high mortality rate in her litters, I'd probably retire her from breeding too.


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## Doc

I've heard the average is 10%. I would concure with that figure.


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## Chris Wild

Wonder where that average comes from and is it breed specific or for all dogs? I know between myself and the many other GSD breeders I know, 10% would be way high. I doubt it would even hit 5%. Less than that if you focus only on stillborn numbers in otherwise normal, healthy litters and eliminate from the equation litters where things go horribly wrong and a large portion of the litter dies due to unusual outside factors. Though other breeds have much higher stillborn rates, so I'm wondering if those are figured into that 10%?


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## Catu

If Doc says 10% of all pups, then I consider it too high. Unless he refers to 10% of litters with one or more stillborn puppies? Then it would make more sense.


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## Chris Wild

Good catch, Catu. 10% of litters having a stillborn would definitely make sense and I'd agree with that being a reasonable figure. I was thinking it was 10% of the number of puppies born, which for GSDs at least is very high.


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## Doc

Well I didn't make the figure up, geeze. I am sorry if my statement didn't make sense. Lets go with 10% of the litters have a stillborn.

Catu, just because I said it - is that why you questioned it? ROFLMAO

Your post sounds as if someone else said it you may consider it correct. LOL

Perhaps the 10% includes the number of pups that do not survive the first 10 days. Still born included. I'll comb back through the trillion pages of notes and try to recall a gazillion personal conversations and see if I can justfy the 10% number with references. 

Otherwise, please strike my comment from the record.

What does the comment "good catch" mean? It sounds as if you are trying to snare an animal or a crook! It is not in my Southern vernacular. Could it mean the same as "good point"?


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## angelaw

yes, lol


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## rokanhaus

Well, I would think BYB, rescued pregnant dogs, etc. all have a higher mortality rate...so it would be interesting to know what exactly they use for that data. 

Bottom line, many factors to consider with stillborn pups, such as age and health of the female, litter size, stress...


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## OkieAmazon

As a veterinary technician, I've seen dozens and dozens of litters born, most of the deliveries I've seen have been preceded by some complication, or at least by some concerns and I would say 10% stillborn is WAY high. (Even in the case of c-sections) In my own litters, while admittedly not many, (less than 10 over the last twenty-five years) I have had two stillborns. One was definitely just a delayed birth, last pup delivered several hours after rest of litter, the other was my last litter last summer. It was the third-born pup, and had obviously been dead at least 24 hours. When I started to rub and try to resuscitate, hair began to come off. ICK. Two normal healthy pups before that one and three after.


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## angelaw

I've had 2 stillborns, one dam litter of 8, one stillborn, same dam litter of 12, one still born, one fatal birth defect. First litter, still born was in the middle and slowed up delivery. 

Later, diff. female, litter of 13, no stillborns but one half size everyone else, died 2 days later.


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## clfike

Timber came from a litter of 12 and 9 died. They had no idea why. Some were stillborn and some died shortly after. So sad. His mother's first litter was just fine.


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## Catu

> Originally Posted By: Doc
> 
> Catu, just because I said it - is that why you questioned it? ROFLMAO


Nooooo








The interrogation comes because I _Think_ that 10% of the litters is what you meant, but I don't know for sure and don't want to put words in your mouth.

Remember English is not my first languaje


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## Doc

Well Catu, many have told me that English isn't my first language either - I think it has something to do with the southern accent. You know, at times I can't remember what I meant either! LOL.

So lets just say - some times there are stillborns, but not as often in German shepherd litters. Or we could just droop the dang topic. 

As for me, no stillborns out of 3 litters. I'm sure my luck will change at some point.


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## Minnieski

It's so sad, in any case. Thank you for your comments.


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## RubyTuesday

Minnieski, sometimes it just boils down to stuff happens & who knows why. Other times inexperienced or callous breeders don't do the necessary health screenings prior to breeding, neglect the bitch's increased nutritional needs, don't provide prenatal vet care or fail to realize that the delivery is problematic & requires a doctor NOW. All of these can contribute to pup mortality. I truly don't envy the weight carried by breeders! So much responsibility & invariably some heartaches as well.


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## alaman

My last litter, 3 of 12 were stillborn. One prior, 2 of 9


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## penzola kuti

*Here is me penzola kuti*

what are the causes of hair loses for puppy and what anti dot I can use


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## M.A.S.

clfike said:


> Timber came from a litter of 12 and 9 died. They had no idea why. Some were stillborn and some died shortly after. So sad. His mother's first litter was just fine.


Cindy, I just found this thread as we’re considering a puppy from a litter that had a high mortality rate. It looks like Timber sadly had a short life. My condolences. If I may ask, did he die from something related to the mortality rate of the litter? I’m also curious where he came from, as he looks very much like one of our dogs. Thanks, Micky


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## Fodder

M.A.S. said:


> Cindy, I just found this thread as we’re considering a puppy from a litter that had a high mortality rate. It looks like Timber sadly had a short life. My condolences. If I may ask, did he die from something related to the mortality rate of the litter? I’m also curious where he came from, as he looks very much like one of our dogs. Thanks, Micky


This member has not logged on in over 8yrs. I sent you a PM


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