# Balanced training versus Purely Positive



## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)




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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I kinda know how Deja would have turned out by just the clicker method; she would have been killed by a car while chasing any kind of animal, she would have killed fawns and life stock while a farmer might have killed her doing just that. I wouldn't have this sweet, awesome dog she is now. I am wondering if trainers who never, and really NEVER, not even secretly, use a prong, E or choke collar but just treats, toys and praise, ever raised a strong GSD successfully.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

With apologies to those of you who think a dog must be managed as a 4 legged human. I am not one to advocate "training" (for dogs or children). I firmly believe dogs should be allowed to be dogs. If you want a dog that is different than a German Shepherd, then don't get a German Shepherd. We advocate housebreaking, using time, patience, positive reinforcement when the dog goes outside and negative (a lot of yelling) when the dog doesn't. We usually teach them to sit when a cookie is involved and it sticks. Both of mine clearly understand they must stay out of our one-person-at-a- time Kitchen. We do not use prong collars, e collars or cages, unless you consider being stuck in the laundry with a bed, water dish and toys a cage for bad behavior. We do use baby gates and, even though they can jump them, they don't. We expect them to stay in the back yard or with us if we walk some where else. Our dogs are watchdogs so they have the run of the house. We understand they couldn't care less if someone tried to walk out with the TV, but if they even look at that 30 lb bag of dog food I would expect them to protect it, so this is THEIR home, too. Elke occasionally takes off down the driveway if she sees a cat or deer but she comes right back. I guess she knows where 'home' is. Duke is still on a leash because he likes to go on adventures in the woods. We wanders back in 1/2 an hour or so, but meanwhile we have to hunt for him. Neither have ever wandered far. Having a dog means having a dog. If you want a trained seal, get a trained seal.


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## Jorski (Jan 11, 2019)

@Buckelke 
I disagree. I believe a dog requires understanding of what is acceptable behavior and what isn't. 
Dogs love good training. Further, it is a pleasure to have a dog with perfect recall, that can go anywhere off leash. One of my key activities to properly exercise my working line GSD is long retrieve with a chucker. He is trained to do it fast and accurately. No lying down with ball, no keep away, no distractibility weather there is dogs, cats or even Elks. This doesn't just happen naturally, it takes training.
When My dog first was able to go to the off leash hiking area not far from my house, he was initially dog reactive. I taught him that was not acceptable, at the same time I taught him how to react properly. I would never allow him to "just be a dog" in that example, and he's better off for it.

A seal, no thanks. I'll take well trained German Shepherd thanks.

P.S. My home isn't "their home too". It is my house and they live there within the rules and guidelines that I set.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Buckelke, I guess Elke doesn't have the same drive as Deja. How old is Buck? Do you have to keep him on leash in the woods because he won't return from a hunt when you call him? That permanent leashing on hikes would have been Deja's future. The brief E collar training bought her the freedom to be off leash on beaches, parks and forests and at our home in the forests. If you don't advocate training for dogs and kids, how do you have a peaceful life or don't you have children living with you? Just curious how you manage all that.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Buckelke said:


> With apologies to those of you who think a dog must be managed as a 4 legged human. I am not one to advocate "training" (for dogs or children). I firmly believe dogs should be allowed to be dogs. If you want a dog that is different than a German Shepherd, then don't get a German Shepherd. We advocate housebreaking, using time, patience, positive reinforcement when the dog goes outside and negative (a lot of yelling) when the dog doesn't. We usually teach them to sit when a cookie is involved and it sticks. Both of mine clearly understand they must stay out of our one-person-at-a- time Kitchen. We do not use prong collars, e collars or cages, unless you consider being stuck in the laundry with a bed, water dish and toys a cage for bad behavior. We do use baby gates and, even though they can jump them, they don't. We expect them to stay in the back yard or with us if we walk some where else. Our dogs are watchdogs so they have the run of the house. We understand they couldn't care less if someone tried to walk out with the TV, but if they even look at that 30 lb bag of dog food I would expect them to protect it, so this is THEIR home, too. Elke occasionally takes off down the driveway if she sees a cat or deer but she comes right back. I guess she knows where 'home' is. Duke is still on a leash because he likes to go on adventures in the woods. We wanders back in 1/2 an hour or so, but meanwhile we have to hunt for him. Neither have ever wandered far. Having a dog means having a dog. If you want a trained seal, get a trained seal.


I couldn’t disagree more. Dogs not only deserve to know right and wrong, to know what is expected of them, they have a right to. You don’t even agree with the statement you made. You said you don’t believe in training, yet you believe in house breaking. You believe in teaching sit. You think a laundry closet is something better than a kennel. You believe in yelling at the dog but you don’t believe in prongs or other physical corrections. One of those is highly ineffective for most dogs. That I don’t believe dogs need training mentality might work for some companion breeds. Any dog breed as a working dog absolutely will require training and boundaries set.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Animals correct each other. Nature is often harsh! I believe in teaching with rewards but to stop a behavior there needs to be consequences that the dog does not want to experience again. It doesn't have to be violent, just clear and unpleasant. But we also have to have realistic expectations. German Shepherds have tendencies towards certain behaviors. That is one reason we like them. We have to work with those tendencies, not squash them. That is where a good trainer comes in. 
Nothing is 100 percent positive or rewarding. Every thinking creature makes choices to avoid discomfort. All of life is avoiding discomfort and finding reward. Teaching and training recognizes that.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

This as an illustration: I just came back from a bike ride in the forest with both dogs off leash all the time. We had people passing by from behind, from the front, even dogs and they would come back to me and sit when asked to . I am super proud of them but it took training for sure and sometimes corrections as a reminder. But I never had to yell at them to get them to that level of obedience.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

My friend had a chihuahua that was absolutely psychotic. Not just the average "bark a lot and be annoying". The dog will charge you and try to maul your ankles, hands and any body part including INFANTS. She went to petsmart of "postive training only" classes. That dog never got better, almost bit an infant in the face and pulled so hard it had a collapsing trachea. They rehomed it to a family friend that doesn't have much experience but believes in fair discipline. A few stern "No"s and a few smacks on the head with a newspaper for biting humans the dog was... doing strangely well. In a month that dog stopped having the shakes, perfect offleash manners and no more excessive barking and efforts of mauling children.

All that dog needed to know was that "the big humans will protect me" and the house rules. That's all she needed. She passed away after a year due to complications of her collapsed trachea. That one year with that family was the happiest she has been in 14 years.

Edit: There is a great place for clicker training, I absolutely adore it. I try to use clicker/marker training as much as possible but if my dog is in danger, I won't hesitate to use positive punishment for the dog's sake.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Someone else in the forum posted this. It sums up how I feel about using 'all positive' with big, strong dogs that have been bred to be protective: (I think it was Dave who posted it.)

Of course, training should be mostly positive, but dogs (and kids) need to know there are consequences for bad behaviour. I like the way Cesar phrases it: rules, boundaries and limitations.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

car2ner said:


> Animals correct each other. Nature is often harsh! I believe in teaching with rewards but to stop a behavior there needs to be consequences that the dog does not want to experience again. It doesn't have to be violent, just clear and unpleasant. But we also have to have realistic expectations. German Shepherds have tendencies towards certain behaviors. That is one reason we like them. We have to work with those tendencies, not squash them. That is where a good trainer comes in.
> Nothing is 100 percent positive or rewarding. Every thinking creature makes choices to avoid discomfort. All of life is avoiding discomfort and finding reward. Teaching and training recognizes that.


Exactly... simple as that.
This is actually the main thing I'll never quite wrap my head around about this idea of "positive only" > it does NOT exist. lol
No matter how hard you would try, no creature will go through life with positive emotions and experiences only.
So you know, better make it work for you instead of living in denial.
I understand how at first you could see it as a harmless trend though (that was me a few years ago). Then I got into endless discussions with positive aficionados, and realized it looked quite a lot like brainwashing.
I've had a girl explain to me that she wouldn't use the word "no", because she preferred to "suggest stuff" to her dog instead. I gave her the very simple example of how I trained my dogs to not get in my vegetable patch > simple dissuasion, ban on veggie patch, got it quick, problem solved. Her answer : no way. She'd rather "suggest to her dog" to play, do tricks and stuff instead of forbidding anything ^^
Well, I went on to explain my goal wasn't to play, dance or do the cha-cha with my dogs, just let them know that they don't get in that patch. Absolutely NO way she would concede. 
Even when we got to getting the dog away from snakes... she started explaining that there were options instead of saying no. Just ask the dog to go to the "right" for instance 
I mean, that thing got to a surreal point in some people, where it sounds like any contact with reality has been lost.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Just a remark though: this trend isn't just about "click and treat". (The image is funny, but it would actually be much less severe if it was just this)
It's more about rejecting ANY form or contradicting your dog. Not only is correction "banned", but you don't say no, you don't frustrate them, you don't expose them to any "strong" emotion, you just basically keep turning away from what you deem "too much" from them, and "suggest" stuff "instead". You don't actually give commands either, just suggestions.


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Well, I went on to explain my goal wasn't to play, dance or do the cha-cha with my dogs, just let them know that they don't get in that patch. Absolutely NO way she would concede.
> Even when we got to getting the dog away from snakes... she started explaining that there were options instead of saying no. Just ask the dog to go to the "right" for instance
> I mean, that thing got to a surreal point in some people, where it sounds like any contact with reality has been lost.


People do get so bizarre. We can't teach other humans with rewards and redirection only and we can discuss and explain to other humans. People also make every choice to move away from discomfort to reward. Even when people self sacrifice, it is because to not do so is too uncomfortable mentally. ( of course this is painting with broad strokes. there will be exceptions if we search for them )


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I know. What mystifies me is that complete lack of nuance really.
The fact that people are willing to completely lose touch with reality to keep up with some "ideals" of theirs.
I think in a lot of cases it's more about making yourself comfortable (which totally goes back to what you just said).
I don't correct because I don't "like" to, I'd rather not face adversity so I shy away and say it's because my dog isn't "ready", and so on...
Would never have imagined how huge this all was when I got into dogs.
The lack of nuance doesn't only exist within that trend though. I think the information overload from the Internet and social media today has its ups and downs...
People get ways too worked up about what they "should" or "shouldn't" be doing and may sometimes forget to think and experience for themselves.
I mean, some research and planning is definitely normal, but it gets ways to extreme sometimes these days.
At the end of the day, with dogs or with anything, you'll have to do you.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

Here's an excellent blog entry from trainer Monique Anstee. Not telling a dog 'no' actually creates stress!




Some trainers prefer to wait for the right choice, and then reinforce it. If we are discussing sitting, or lying down, then this is a great strategy. But when it comes to disrespectful and rude behaviour I strongly disagree with this. I would never allow a person to continuously yell at me, then when silent reward them with a beer. Yet many trainers would advise that if you dislike your dog barking at you, wait until he is silent, then feed him. They ignore what they don’t like, then when it is over, reward what they do.

It would be a cold day in **** before we were this nice to people. So why are we being this nice to dogs?

Now here is what I am finding fascinating. They never say ‘no’ to their dogs. Their dogs are never wrong and are only ever rewarded for being right. Yet, the threads on blogs and facebook are all about how to help their dogs handle stress. Stress reduction is a huge part of their training. Their dogs all seem to be fearful, stressed and unable to deal with any moment out of the ordinary.

The “Kindness” being given to their dogs is stressing their dogs out.

I find the stress talk fascinating because I’ve never had a fearful or stressed dog and neither have any of my like-minded training friends. We’ve had dogs from every walk of life- rescues, a variety of breeds all with perfect and imperfect beginnings. We compete with them all which is very stressful, yet our dogs don’t show stress or fear (even if as a puppy or rescue that start that way). Stress Relief through Clear Communication in Dog Training | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

If you want to speak dog, you need to observe dogs. They are pretty balanced, consistent and don't put up with ****. However, I do realize that they don't use the word "NO" but have their own ways for changing behavior .
So to Buckelke, again my question copied from my earlier response; "If you don't advocate training for dogs and kids, how do you have a peaceful life or don't you have children living with you? Just curious how you manage all that. "


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I am currently reading this book in Kindle form: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B015X2G51C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The author cuts to the chase, and pulls no punches. Our problems with dogs are mostly the result of the 'fur baby' mentality, which treats dogs like humans, with human understanding and emotions.

The book has a 'look inside' option that allows you to read quite a bit of the first chapter. Well worth a look!

Edit: Wolfydog, too true! Take a look at the first page of the book I linked to above - it shows how a sled dog (okay, high wolf content sled dog) dealt with a young dog that wanted to share his food! 🤣


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

wolfy dog said:


> If you want to speak dog, you need to observe dogs. They are pretty balanced, consistent and don't put up with ****. However, I do relaize that they don't use the word "NO" but have their own ways for changing behavior .
> So to Buckelke, again my question copied from my earlier response; "If you don't advocate training for dogs and kids, how do you have a peaceful life or don't you have children living with you? Just curious how you manage all that. "


One day I’ll capture the conversations between Bear and Cion on camera. You might not hear no, but you definitely see it. I’m sure everyone would recognize it.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Yep! I agree 100%, I have unfortunately seen this.
And then the stress creates issues. And they'll add more stress on top of it, by trying to "positively" fix these issues, it's a never ending cycle... I do feel extremely sorry for some of these dogs.
Some will even end up with stress management medication, or "diagnosed" with HS-HA syndromes, where there's no syndrome whatsoever, just so much BS done that the dog is left in a constant state of confusion.


The girl I was talking about who would "suggest" to her dog to turn right to avoid a snake (lmfao not even sure how you could seriously hear yourself speak such things and no realize how crazy it sounds), had a Swiss shepherd that developed serious stress issues over time.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> One day I’ll capture the conversations between Bear and Cion on camera. You might not hear no, but you definitely see it. I’m sure everyone would recognize it.


Ha, ha, they are more effective than we are.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> If you want to speak dog, you need to observe dogs. They are pretty balanced, consistent and don't put up with ****. However, I do realize that they don't use the word "NO" but have their own ways for changing behavior .
> So to Buckelke, again my question copied from my earlier response; "If you don't advocate training for dogs and kids, how do you have a peaceful life or don't you have children living with you? Just curious how you manage all that. "


It reminds me of a beautiful video I came across a long time ago. A Jindo dog mummy saying "no" to another dog trying to get to her babies.
That was one of the best ways to say "no" I've ever seen. So quick, sharp and accurate.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> It reminds me of a beautiful video I came across a long time ago. A Jindo dog mummy saying "no" to another dog trying to get to her babies.
> That was one of the best ways to say "no" I've ever seen. So quick, sharp and accurate.


Jindos are such beautiful dogs, I really wanted one but I have a cat. We had a few when I grew up in Korea. Fiercely loyal and disgustingly high prey drive. Extremely territorial. I hope one day I get to own one if my circumstances allow it!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Hopps said:


> Jindos are such beautiful dogs, I really wanted one but I have a cat. We had a few when I grew up in Korea. Fiercely loyal and disgustingly high prey drive. Extremely territorial. I hope one day I get to own one if my circumstances allow it!


Yes they are, I've never met one but I've enjoyed watching some videos. I love ancient types.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Sunsilver said:


> Someone else in the forum posted this. It sums up how I feel about using 'all positive' with big, strong dogs that have been bred to be protective: (I think it was Dave who posted it.)
> 
> Of course, training should be mostly positive, but dogs (and kids) need to know there are consequences for bad behaviour. I like the way Cesar phrases it: rules, boundaries and limitations.
> 
> View attachment 582632


Yeah. That's Fama. I was going to find that and post it on this thread 

There are a couple high level trainers that successfully use +R and -P only. Shade Whitsell has titled a few dogs without corrections, and I think Mario Versleppe(sp?) is still on that path. I don't follow those groups on FB so others may know more.

It's a lot of work and it takes a trainer that understands dogs very well (better than me).


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Today at the beach; instant return after a recall. The result of 'balanced training'. They don't appear to be traumatized.


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Today at the beach; instant return after a recall. The result of 'balanced training'. They don't appear to be traumatized.


I'll never forget the day where I was at Petsmart and was watching the positive only class, this was around 15 years ago. My friend had a corgi and they highly recommend that I watch the class. It worked great for most people except this one lady. She had an airedale terrier and they were trying to teach a long sit. The dog was doing great so the owner looked away just for a second. BOOM, the dog pulled the leash out of the owner's hands. Cue the owner and trainer freaking out. The owner was chasing after the dog with a big piece of jerky saying "SIT BAD DOG SIT" and the trainer in hot pursuit yelling "DON"T PUNISH THE DOG". Treats were not working so the trainer yelled "GET THE SQUEAKY TOY". The owner is frantically pulling out more treats and squeaky toys to get the dog to pay attention. The dog ran by me twice but I was too scared to grab the dog. She proceeds to drop everything she was holding including the treat bag that was caught on the toy. The treats spilled everywhere. The dog did a sharp u-turn and devoured all the treats it can. Someone else caught the dog while it was eating. The owner was running up with whatever toys and treats she had left yelling "GOOD DOG" in the angriest tone possible. 

I was only 13 at the time and I'm not gonna lie I was a bit afraid of "positive only" training after witnessing that debacle. I went to my friend's house (the one with the corgi) and we had a sandwich for lunch. I was sitting on the ground and the corgi almost bit my face. I yelled NO BAD DOG and my friend said "don't yell at him, it's not his fault he's hungry". I nodded blankly as the image of the airedale terrier ran through my mind. I just went home after that.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

For awhile, I had a 'friend' who believed in all positive. When I went to visit her, her very large male dog kept insisting on shoving his head in my lap and drooling all over my pants. They were my good pants, so I wasn't pleased. I kept telling him to go away, and he totally ignored me. When I tried several times to gently push his head away, he took my arm in his mouth! 

This woman had 4 dogs, two male Shiloh shepherds,and one female and a miniature pinscher. The older male bit the groomer, and when she found out her son had yelled at the dog for doing so, she said, "You should have given him a cookie instead!"

The female killed 2 small dogs. One was the miniature pinscher, the other was the next door neighbour's small white poodle mix, that was barking at her while she was out in the backyard with her puppies. She charged the fence, and went right through it to get to the dog. The owner excused the behaviour by saying she was protecting her puppies.

In the case of the mini-pin, the female attacked him 3 times. The first two times, the owner was away somewhere, and blamed the person looking after her dogs for the attack. I was the person on one of those occasions.

The next time she went away, and left me responsible for the dogs, I kept the mini-pin separated from the Shilohs. The day after she returned, the Shiloh attacked the dog when it ran to the door, and this time it didn't survive. You'll have to forgive me if I say I was very happy to hear her admit that this time it was ENTIRELY her fault!

I have rarely in my life met anyone as clueless about dog behaviour as this woman. I know there are people who make all positive work, but she definitely wasn't one of them!!


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Positive training requires skills and also a drivey dog. It’s much easier to train with compulsion. In a street fight a guy with a baseball bat will be more effective that a guy with 5 self defense classes but less effective than a professional boxer who also knows some other martial arts. The majority of ppl don’t have skills and don’t have time to acquire the skills needed for purely positive training, and the majority of pets don’t have a lot of drive.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Reflecting about what constitutes +R, -R, +P and -P to your dog is interesting, but this is not exact science and largely depends on human perception. So sometimes I wonder why this seems to be so important to some people to have "only" used what they used?
A lot of what we do and experience doesn't fit in simplistic frames.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

This whole thing about -P vs +P for instance: is it so black and white if we adopt the dog's perspective for a minute? On what grounds should -P be considered essentially "better"?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Dogs understand very clearly the four quadrants of of learning theory. We humans tend to remain confused. Our biases and emotions get in the way.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

'Positive only' is misunderstood by people who don't understand how a dog's mind and operant conditioning (-punishment, - reinforcement, +punishment, +reinforcement) works. The latter is based on science. 'Positive only' is too please the human and technically means +reinforcement only . The full quadrant of operant conditioning teaches the dog, so balanced training fits under that umbrella.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> 'Positive only' is misunderstood by people who don't understand how a dog's mind and operant conditioning (-punishment, - reinforcement, +punishment, +reinforcement) works. The latter is based on science. 'Positive only' is too please the human and technically means +reinforcement only . The full quadrant of operant conditioning teaches the dog, so balanced training fits under that umbrella.


That's why I don't really get the whole +R/-P ONLY or "positive only" or whatever you call it turning into some kind of religion.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

We can all discuss the four quadrants and subtleties of theory but for the majority of ppl “positive only” generally means “no physical compulsion/punishment”. They don’t want to cause physical pain, that’s their religion.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> This whole thing about -P vs +P for instance: is it so black and white if we adopt the dog's perspective for a minute? On what grounds should -P be considered essentially "better"?


Quadrant conditioning is a theory to help the humans understand the learning process and apply techniques. I don’t think the dogs care about the specifics. You can always ask.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Deja's teaching philosophy works great on Bo.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> Quadrant conditioning is a theory to help the humans understand the learning process and apply techniques. I don’t think the dogs care about the specifics. You can always ask.


Thanks, that's what I meant.
That quadrant isn't meant to tell us what's "best", that is for us to find out depending on the individual and situation.
Removing something pleasant, to put it simply, isn't essentially "better" than using +P, (which is absolutely not a synonym of physical punishment... that could be many things).


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> Thanks, that's what I meant.
> That quadrant isn't meant to tell us what's "best", that is for us to find out depending on the individual and situation.
> Removing something pleasant, to put it simply, isn't essentially "better" than using +P, (which is absolutely not a synonym of physical punishment... that could be many things).


Exactly. You’ll pretty much always be wrong in you try to judge it in absolutes.


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSD07 said:


> We can all discuss the four quadrants and subtleties of theory but for the majority of ppl “positive only” generally means “no physical compulsion/punishment”. They don’t want to cause physical pain, that’s their religion.


Yesterday while walking Punk I got yelled at by some woman. Shadow was sniffing a patch of ice, then she licked it. I said No! Leave it! She ignored me. I gave her a collar pop. She hesitated then tried to lick again. I swatted her with a flat hand, on her ribcage. Lady walking across the street flipped out. 
I live in a city, in sort of a skungy neighborhood. Needles, broken glass, trash, oil, coolant. My dog knows she is not to eat or lick at anything on walks. She is also old, and a bit unsteady. A hard collar pop is much riskier then a swat on the ribs or shoulder. Its not like I'm hauling off and hammering her.
These positive only, furbaby mamas are out to lunch.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Sabis mom said:


> Yesterday while walking Punk I got yelled at by some woman. Shadow was sniffing a patch of ice, then she licked it. I said No! Leave it! She ignored me. I gave her a collar pop. She hesitated then tried to lick again. I swatted her with a flat hand, on her ribcage. Lady walking across the street flipped out.
> I live in a city, in sort of a skungy neighborhood. Needles, broken glass, trash, oil, coolant. My dog knows she is not to eat or lick at anything on walks. She is also old, and a bit unsteady. A hard collar pop is much riskier then a swat on the ribs or shoulder. Its not like I'm hauling off and hammering her.
> These positive only, furbaby mamas are out to lunch.


If her body is too frail for a collar correction, how about an E collar to avoid hurting her physically? Dress it up with a bandana and all the fur baby mommas are happy.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I consulted Rogan and he confirmed that he needs the odd correction....he actually said "for when I'm being a butthead"


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Sabis mom said:


> Yesterday while walking Punk I got yelled at by some woman. Shadow was sniffing a patch of ice, then she licked it. I said No! Leave it! She ignored me. I gave her a collar pop. She hesitated then tried to lick again. I swatted her with a flat hand, on her ribcage. Lady walking across the street flipped out.
> I live in a city, in sort of a skungy neighborhood. Needles, broken glass, trash, oil, coolant. My dog knows she is not to eat or lick at anything on walks. She is also old, and a bit unsteady. A hard collar pop is much riskier then a swat on the ribs or shoulder. Its not like I'm hauling off and hammering her.
> These positive only, furbaby mamas are out to lunch.


When I lived in a very well populated city (the same area where I witnessed the terrier at PetSmart) people acted like you were the devil if you even laid a hand on your dog. Just the other day I took fern around the park and there was some human excrement on the ground. Obviously I’m going to let Fern go near it but she was pulling super hard. I poked her on the ribs with enough pressure to make her stop and look at me with sad eyes. The people watching were taking a break from tennis and they were so freaked out. One of them said “oh my god” started shaking her head at me. Like I play the drums on Fern’s rib cage way harder than I poke her.


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

Hopps said:


> The owner was running up with whatever toys and treats she had left yelling "GOOD DOG" in the angriest tone possible.


I lol'd hard at this


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

When I first got Willow, I realized pretty quickly we were going to need some training. The first trainer we found was recommended by an acquaintance, and was a positive-only trainer who had a 2-for-1 training session deal going on. Sweet. 

Well...long story short, I spent two sessions basically sitting in the grass with these two trainers while they chucked treats at Willow for seemingly random things. I think Willow was really confused. At the time she was SUPER reactive, especially when people came into my house, so they had me put her in her crate and then give her treats whenever she stopped freaking out at the two strangers in the room. (And by "stopped freaking out", I mean took a 1-second break from barking hysterically.) After half an hour of the hysterical barking, they left, telling me I should get a thundershirt and some drugs. 

Fast forward a month later, the positive training tools they'd given me weren't doing a thing, and I was considering re-homing Willow. A friend of mine's wife (whom I didn't know well at the time) just so happened to be a GSD trainer and offered me a free consultation. I went and met her with Willow. She used a balanced approach and even after just one training session, I felt like I _finally_ had the tools to be able to help Willow (and myself). After a few months of gentle leash corrections, confidence-building (positive training), and walking with the prong collar, Willow was a different, more confident, more secure, dog, who understood what was expected of her. And this trainer also helped me understand that dogs aren't fragile human babies; they are dogs and they need structure and discipline. 

So I dunno. Positive training might work for some dogs? But I don't think it would have worked for Willow, at least not at the rate I needed it to work.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

@banzai555 you know you did something right when you and your dog are happy and able to live life to the fullest. Kind of stops there, right?
I am amazed that some people are apparently willing to go around in circles forever just because they are scared to correct and/or don't how to. (they may not even know what an efficient correction really looks like and what it means to a dog).
Also, "reactivity" is a catch-all term, about anything gets labeled reactivity on social media... To give just one example, we have a mother and daughter duo in my area that are the typical positive-only rainbows and unicorns believers, with 2 huskies they got as perfect puppies from a perfect breeder, and that they only unleash once in a while the farthest away from any civilization for lack of any recall. Sometimes I'll come across them and watch them as they blow in their ultrasound whistles hoping to get home sometime before night, while their dogs happily explore, not paying more attention to their humans than they would to a pile of hay really.
I chatted a couple of times with them, one of their dogs doesn't like her butt sniffed too long, and guess what they call it... "reactivity" 🤣
So reactivity to them is just what a normal, actually quite mellow dog looks to me. (maybe OVER-reactivity would actually be a better term? So people see that any type of dog reaction isn't being "reactive")
Anyway, as I said I subscribed to some dog groups on FB, and I found out one of these groups was actually managed by these women, where they post pics of perfect dogs walked on long lines for a lifetime lack or recall, and actively "advocate" for positive only. I mean, they have never actually trained just ONE dog in their life.
And while they are happy to live in that bubble of likely minded and likely unexperimented people (which is fine by be), other people don't advocate for anything but just go to work instead 
Give them a dog half as reactive mine was, they'll end up on their butts and the dog will be back to the shelter the same day.
But no chance that even happens, I'm pretty sure they'll stick to husky pups (and keep advocating lol)


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Just to clarify: this is not to say some people can't train a dog like mine or yours taking a different approach. Just that a lot of "advocates" don't have any idea what they actually advocate for, and still they influence public opinion a great deal.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

Chloé&Buck said:


> @banzai555 you know you did something right when you and your dog are happy and able to live life to the fullest. Kind of stops there, right?
> I am amazed that some people are apparently willing to go around in circles forever just because they are scared to correct and/or don't how to. (they may not even know what an efficient correction really looks like and what it means to a dog).
> Also, "reactivity" is a catch-all term, about anything gets labeled reactivity on social media... To give just one example, we have a mother and daughter duo in my area that are the typical positive-only rainbows and unicorns believers, with 2 huskies they got as perfect puppies from a perfect breeder, and that they only unleash once in a while the farthest away from any civilization for lack of any recall. Sometimes I'll come across them and watch them as they blow in their ultrasound whistles hoping to get home sometime before night, while their dogs happily explore, not paying more attention to their humans than they would to a pile of hay really.
> I chatted a couple of times with them, one of their dogs doesn't like her butt sniffed too long, and guess what they call it... "reactivity" 🤣
> ...


I seen a lady call e collars abusive. That same lady had issues with her dog walking on leash, humping her other dog and recalling. All things that can be easily trained with an e collar.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

I was asked to look after a golden retriever that had a muzzle order slapped on it for biting a small dog. The owner left it tied to a tree in front of the house while he went back inside to pee. That was enough time for another dog to run up to it and get bitten. (I've forgotten the details, I just remember the small dog did not have a good temperament, and all the dog owners in the area avoided it when walking THEIR dogs.) The owners had another male dog that didn't get along with it (both intact, of course!) so they asked if I could keep the dog at the kennel until it found a new home.

They had a halti on it when it arrived at the kennel. In spite of the halti, the dog was obviously in control - it was 'walking' its owner.

Later in the day, when I had time, I ditched the halti, put a prong collar on the dog, and grabbed a handful of treats. In 15 minutes, a few corrections with the prong, and lots of praise and treats, I had the dog walking nicely by my side, and keeping its focus on me. FIFTEEN MINUTES!!

Of course, without anyone to help, I couldn't proof it by adding distractions, but when the owner came by the next day, I was able get the dog to ignore him while I walked up and down the driveway. I also had a professional trainer assess the dog, and she said it was not dog-aggressive. It wasn't too long before I found it a good home, as well as signing it up for an appointment with the Ontario Humane Society's low-cost spay-neuter clinic.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Bearshandler said:


> I seen a lady call e collars abusive. That same lady had issues with her dog walking on leash, humping her other dog and recalling. All things that can be easily trained with an e collar.


To be honest, for the dogs I just mentioned and for many others I come across on a daily basis, there isn't even any type of correction needed at that point..
What's missing is the most basic sense of engagement, just that.
Not even talking about e-collar or any particular tool, just doing "something" with the dog would be a good start in a lot of cases.
One afternoon as I was chatting with a few women that I sometimes walk with, one of them kept telling me she had trouble with leash walks (and well, I could totally see why as her dog had about zero zero focus) I just asked can I grab the leash for a minute and, you know, give it a little try. It's not that I wanted to demonstrate anything, I just like to "try" other dogs when I get the chance. lol
She said yes, so I grabbed this husky girl, Ouchka, and I started to play a bit, doing little series of stop and go, going one way and the other. Nothing technical or hard at all really, literally a 5 yo kid could do what I did with Ouchka.
Just changing pace, being in a good mood, making her follow you know. And she was SO ecstatic actually, she seemed to love it ^^
The whole time I could hear her owner telling another neighbor "whoaa, look at that ! Amazing !"
Ouchka actually looked like a happy little show dog. Now, after seeing this, did her owner change her habits at all? Nope. lol
It was just a nice little moment with the newness also making that dog more engaged of course, but the truth is this woman doesn't care to work with her dog, she has no desire to do so really. And she is very nice, I like her, we get along well.
If she doesn't want to teach stuff to that dog, it's totally fine by me. That dog still has a good life. But on the other hand, she wouldn't advocate for "positive only" or any type of training anyway, as she is perfectly aware what she does isn't training.
It's just that "no training at all" shouldn't translate into "I do positive only training". lol


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I think positive training is dismissed on this board a lot. I “purely positively” shaped a place command as an exercise (I took a capturing /shaping class with Shade) and it ended up to be as solid as it gets, distractions and all, and also generalized in place, time and location. Zero corrections, requires thinking, understanding dogs and time. I think one day in distant future when I retire I will become a purely positive trainer!


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

What is "purely positive" ?

Even Denise Fenzi and Kikopup use negative reinforcement.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I've done a ton of positive reinforcement with Buck and still do all the time, and I also used corrections when I deemed fit to. I've done more positive training with that dog than any "positive only" advocates I know of at that point.
Maybe you GSD07 could have gotten us out of the **** purely positively 
Who knows? But at some point, I just really needed to be able to walk that dog. Can't always do positive forever... I don't need to be able to walk my butthead when he'll be 5 yo, I need to do it now, and every day.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

BdeAngelo said:


> What is "purely positive" ?
> 
> Even Denise Fenzi and Kikopup use negative reinforcement.


That's a great question. Let's have another round 🤣


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

BdeAngelo said:


> What is "purely positive" ?


I think people use this to describe training without physical punishment or yelling. "Positive" is from the human point of view. If you close the door in front of the dog who wants to go out first, it is experienced as punishment by the dog; it won't get what it wants. No way can you raise a dog without the dog experiencing some form of punishment in his life. It's all about the "feel good craze" and marketing businesses.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

wolfy dog said:


> I think people use this to describe training without physical punishment or yelling.


Well that would be the main touch point I guess. But still, as I got deeper into the buzz I realized it quite often means ways more than that to people who preach it (like really never getting in the dog's way as in the weird snake example I mentioned lol)


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> I think people use this to describe training without physical punishment or yelling. "Positive" is from the human point of view. If you close the door in front of the dog who wants to go out first, it is experienced as punishment by the dog; it won't get what it wants. No way can you raise a dog without the dog experiencing some form of punishment in his life. It's all about the "feel good craze" and marketing businesses.


That is what I think. "Purely Positive" is nothing more than a marketing scam to sell "feels good".

Even Ian Dunbar is on tape yelling at his dog lol.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

(sorry just realized touch point doesn't mean a thing. I meant like the main "common idea")


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

I'll also add that Victoria Stillwell, Jean Donaldson, and a bunch of other scam artists all use positive punishment when they advocate "head halters" and "gentle leaders".


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Does anyone know if the police or military in Sweden correct their dogs?

If they do, are they allowed to use choke collars or are they just giving leash pops on a flat collar?

I watched a really nice interview with Pierre Wahlström, but they didn't talk about corrections, other than ecollar and prong collar being banned, that I remember.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> I think positive training is dismissed on this board a lot. I “purely positively” shaped a place command as an exercise (I took a capturing /shaping class with Shade) and it ended up to be as solid as it gets, distractions and all, and also generalized in place, time and location. Zero corrections, requires thinking, understanding dogs and time. I think one day in distant future when I retire I will become a purely positive trainer!


I can teach plenty of things only using positive reinforcement. I can also get reliability for those things without using corrections. That doesn’t amount to positive only training because at some point in my training corrections have been used.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I really like Sheila Booth’s “Purely positive training” book, she explains everything very well. I like and do the training positively as much as my skills allow, but I’m not under time constraints, don’t need to prove anything to anyone or myself. 
What ppl call “balanced” is very often just same old Koehler. It works too.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> What ppl call “balanced” is very often just same old Koehler.


I'm not sure who you watch train, but in my experience, good balanced trainers use a lot of marker training and capturing of behaviors, which is nothing like KMODT. 

The challenge with some dogs and PP training happens when the dog hits later adolescence or maturity and you run into a competing motivator. Now you need to use punishment and the dog wants to eat you because you changed the rules.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I watched our local “celebrities” lol There is always that modifier “good” that makes all the difference in the world.

“Balanced” just has the same ring to me as “purely positive”, just a marketing word that appeals to a different crowd.

I wanted to bring some balance into the thread and give some support to the positive trainers side


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

How about "Effective training" ? Using whatever works, no tunnel-vision needed.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

Is the emergence of "balanced" as a label actually a reaction to "positive only"?


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> I think people use this to describe training without physical punishment or yelling. "Positive" is from the human point of view. If you close the door in front of the dog who wants to go out first, it is experienced as punishment by the dog; it won't get what it wants. No way can you raise a dog without the dog experiencing some form of punishment in his life. It's all about the "feel good craze" and marketing businesses.


I definitely agree about the “feel good” type of training. I had quite a few friend that got dogs for companionship. The last thing they wanted to do is be “mean” to their dog after a 10-16 hour work day. They liked that their dogs jumped on them after work since it was “cute”. And of course it wasn’t cute when they had a bad day at work and they would yell at them. They hired “positive only, force free” trainers. They loved that they were not the “bad guy” and was able to give their dog as many treats as they want. If friend came over it would always be “can you throw treats on the ground as you walk in the house so the dog won’t jump”. Dog gobbles up the treats and jumps on the house guests. But for them it’s like “at least they didn’t jump at the door” and life moves on.

doggie daycare for 5 days a week, dog park on the weekends. They practically never walk their dogs so they don’t have to do much training. Hiking every two weeks on a leash. They take their dog to the groomers every 2 months so they never brush their dogs either.

positive only, “force free” trainers are basically yes men for these types of owners.With my late dog, I was shopping for trainers. They said they specialize in dog aggression and were “force free”.they said sessions were around $150 per 45 minutes. They asked me where I lived and when they learned where I live (it was a higher income area in the bay), they changed their mind saying my case was soooooo severe. They recommended that I need 8-12 sessions before I see any outcome. The price was now $350-400 per 30 minutes. Of course I got the reassurance of “we will never punish your dog for anything, don’t worry”. I told them that was Way expensive and they curtly said “well if you cared about your dog you would spend the money” and hung up.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

What was so severe then?


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## banzai555 (Sep 2, 2019)

GSD07 said:


> I think positive training is dismissed on this board a lot. I “purely positively” shaped a place command as an exercise (I took a capturing /shaping class with Shade) and it ended up to be as solid as it gets, distractions and all, and also generalized in place, time and location. Zero corrections, requires thinking, understanding dogs and time. I think one day in distant future when I retire I will become a purely positive trainer!


Oh for sure, I've used purely positive training for some things. Like I FINALLY trained Willow to use the backyard for her bathroom, by simply waiting her out (for 2 days!!) and rewarding her with a walk when she finally went. Getting mad at her for not pooping in the yard really didn't help her understand....

But like...I needed her to not jump on the furniture, so I told her "no" when she did it. Otherwise I'd just have to wait for her to come down, I guess, and reward her when she was down. But I've heard of some dogs figuring out how to manipulate that system, in that they purposefully do something they're not supposed to do because they know they'll get rewarded when they quit.

I feel like I've heard it said (and I could very well be wrong) that corrections and discipline can speed along the process of achieving desired behavior; and purely positive training can result in very strong adherence to/reliability for desired behaviors, but it takes a loooooooot longer. So I guess it depends on how much time and patience one has....and I don't have much of either.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

About 3:00 I took the boys out for 45 minutes of running around in the snow with a soccer ball and large ChuckIt for motivations. I pretty much kept them running for the whole time as we played chase and keep away and fetch and some light OB and wore myself out too. They ate a lot of snow and peed on our snowman.

We came in by 4:00, they had a drink and plopped down for a 20 minute snooze by the fire.
By 4:30 they were staring at me like "when are we going to explore the woods or the creek bed or the pond"?

I'm not sure if it was purely positive for them or not .....


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am suspicious about that "light" OB. I hope it was all Positive? You don't want to traumatize these fragile souls.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

banzai555 said:


> But like...I needed her to not jump on the furniture, so I told her "no" when she did it. Otherwise I'd just have to wait for her to come down, I guess, and reward her when she was down.


 No, if she was on the furniture already it would be too late for positive training. Same as when the dog is already barking and reacting it’s too late to correct. You would have to reward her for making the decision not to go on the furniture in the first place.


banzai555 said:


> But I've heard of some dogs figuring out how to manipulate that system, in that they purposefully do something they're not supposed to do because they know they'll get rewarded when they quit.


 Behavior chains, all dogs do it and all handlers inadvertently create them. Ever saw a dog that is pretending he is tracking, deep nose and all, usually trained with corrections on the track?

i agree on the time required so for now until I have a lot of time it’s just a common sense training for me.


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

My daughter got a racoon hound from a rescue that had her sign a contract to only use positive training. We spent a week with them and the dog. Dog was food stealer, but not the usual food stealing counter surfer in an empty kitchen, if you weren't activity hands on or looking at him he would jump up right next you and take the food before they could push him away.

I was in the kitchen alone when he tried with me, grabbed the scruff of his next, told him no walked him out of kitchen, when tried to come back told him no with a voice and body language that meant it.

Rest of the week he never tried to take my food and was my best bud.

He just needed clear communication on what was not allowed.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

And the positive only people will tell you dominance is debunked LOL


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I love positive training! Virtually all my training is positive. I give very infrequent corrections. I do introduce young dogs to pressure in training during leash pressure and e-collar training, particularly if they will be doing real bite work later in life.

I certainly advocate for rewards based training vs escape training, particularly for training behaviors.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

hanshund said:


> And the positive only people will tell you dominance is debunked LOL


Dominance theory, as in all dogs want to be leader, is debunked. The original dominance theory based on wolf research was bogus but it has hung on for years.

Yes, there are rank dogs but typically, it's all about consistency rather than dominance.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

GSD07 said:


> I watched our local “celebrities” lol There is always that modifier “good” that makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> “Balanced” just has the same ring to me as “purely positive”, just a marketing word that appeals to a different crowd.
> 
> I wanted to bring some balance into the thread and give some support to the positive trainers side


Good... That's a Michael Ellis thing. I say "very nice" like a dork would say it. Yes, I'm a dork.

I drives me crazy when people think anything is magical. Cesar "ssshhh" as an example.

It's all about how the dog responds to you and the environment.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Dominance theory, as in all dogs want to be leader, is debunked. The original dominance theory based on wolf research was bogus but it has hung on for years.
> 
> Yes, there are rank dogs but typically, it's all about consistency rather than dominance.


I agree with first part, I am not one who believes all dog behavior is the result of dog wanting to lead. Nor do I believe in things like alpha rolling to show the dog who is in charge.

As far dominance theory based on research, if you are talking about David Meech and "alpha" then I would disagree because all the citations I've seen from organizations such APDT, and prominent vets, cherry pick Meech's research to prove their point.

My point was that dogs understand leadership and dominance very well.

Even yourself said, "the threat of consequence has to be there, in the back of their mind, keeping them honest."


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## Hopps (Dec 5, 2021)

Chloé&Buck said:


> What was so severe then?


The only thing severe on their mind is the amount of $$$ they would potentially lose out on if they didn't charge me premium because of the zipcode I live in haha!

But for real, they didn't think my dog's issue was a big deal because "she is a smaller dog" and "can't cause damage like a big dog with REAL aggression issues". They gave me the quote for the lower amount after we discussed it. She asked for my address and all of a sudden my dog's aggression was awful and I was putting all the dogs in my neighborhood at risk. Not surprised they tried to pull that scam on me, it happened with another trainer. I tried finding their business again but it was closed a few years ago. _shrug_


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

hanshund said:


> I agree with first part, I am not one who believes all dog behavior is the result of dog wanting to lead. Nor do I believe in things like alpha rolling to show the dog who is in charge.
> 
> As far dominance theory based on research, if you are talking about David Meech and "alpha" then I would disagree because all the citations I've seen from organizations such APDT, and prominent vets, cherry pick Meech's research to prove their point.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! But that isn't dominance theory.

Dogs need leadership, but they don't need "dominance" as it stands as a popular term. My dogs sleep with me in bed. They are allowed on furniture. Valor will throw his bowl at me if he is hungry. He walks out the door before I do. I have never alpha rolled him, though he is a very pushy dog. 

I think there is a disconnect with people that abide by strict "alpha" theories. It really depends on the moment and the dog. I will absolutely put a dog in it's place, but that is a rare thing. It's not an every day struggle to stay on top. Most of the time I just have fun with my dog.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I think we all use tons of positive reinforcement with our dogs. The only thing that sounds weird to me is the obsession for "only", and I'm talking mostly in the pet owners community, not in the expert community.
I just don't think all of these terms bring the same images in our minds, depending on what we have seen and done in the past.
For instance, what's the common point between an expert working dog trainer who is only basically saying you should work them in motivation mode, and a standard owner who says no to counter surfing? 
There isn't even a disagreement there, just different worlds and different things implied.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

David Winners said:


> Absolutely! But that isn't dominance theory.
> 
> Dogs need leadership, but they don't need "dominance" as it stands as a popular term. My dogs sleep with me in bed. They are allowed on furniture. Valor will throw his bowl at me if he is hungry. He walks out the door before I do. I have never alpha rolled him, though he is a very pushy dog.
> 
> I think there is a disconnect with people that abide by strict "alpha" theories. It really depends on the moment and the dog. I will absolutely put a dog in it's place, but that is a rare thing. It's not an every day struggle to stay on top. Most of the time I just have fun with my dog.


Can you please define "dominance theory" or link me to what it is?

Dominance = control

You control the food, you control who your dog mates with, etc., you are dominant over your dog.

You correct the dog because he runs to chase chicken and thus you exert your will over the dog and the dog defers - dominance

Pretty simple to me. I'm obviously missing something.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)




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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

Although I don't subscribe to the "purely positive" mantra for practical and reality, reasons. I do belong to a "force free" forum. And I find they come up with interesting and innovative ways of teaching things that is and can be useful to anyone!

It's the absolutist's that cause me pause. I believe it's clear communication, both positi e and negative that counts. I don't use a lot of "corrections", and very very few that could ever be considered harsh or intense. 

But I never hesitate when I think an escalation is needed, I just act! 

The main thing here, is that people should focus on relationship and motivation with their dog or puppy, exercise is also critical. Give your pup/dog those things and using or not using corrections becomes a non issue!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

tim_s_adams said:


> It's the absolutist's that cause me pause. I believe it's clear communication, both positi e and negative that counts.


Exactly. Just clear communication, which includes many things that don't even fall under any technical umbrella.
No need to overthink every tiny detail of what you do with your dogs to have a great relationship.
Obsession with rigid frames is what may actually degrade relationship, whatever frame you would be trying to squeeze into.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

About dominance, again, so much arguing about a word that people have different definitions for...
What about just seeing what you and your dogs will come up with as you go?
I don't think of me and my dogs in terms of alpha or dominance really, life just never really led us there I guess. 
I do see some dogs that have very different "programs"/patterns than mine though (let's not forget that today's dog breeds are anything but natural... and are extremely diverse in terms of how they function)
Huskies for instance, are a bit obsessed with formal posturing, it seems to be something really BIG in their lives, lol
Such dogs tend to annoy my Boxer mix for instance, because in her own "program" it doesn't work that way, and you don't need to overdo posturing like huskies do if you don't actually mean business.
They are just too obsessed with it according to her individual standards.
And so on... I mean there is a whole world of diversity in how dogs show or understand dominant attitudes, postures, etc.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

hanshund said:


> Can you please define "dominance theory" or link me to what it is?
> 
> Dominance = control
> 
> ...


For some reason the link won't post from animal health foundation. org so here's a copy if you'd care to do more research.

The alpha myth is everywhere. Google “alpha dog” on the Internet and you get more than 85 million hits. Really. While not all the sites are about dominating your dog, there are literally millions of resources out there – websites, books, blogs, television shows, veterinarians, trainers and behavior professionals – instructing you to use force and intimidation to overpower your dog into submission. They say that you, the human, must be the alpha. They’re all wrong. Every single one of them.

The erroneous approach to canine social behavior known as dominance theory (two million-plus Google hits) is based on a study of captive zoo wolves conducted in the 1930s and 1940s by Swiss animal behaviorist Rudolph Schenkel, in which the scientist concluded that wolves in a pack fight to gain dominance, and the winner is the alpha wolf.

The Origin’s of the “Alpha” Dog Theory
Schenkel’s observations of captive wolf behavior were erroneously extrapolated to wild wolf behavior, and then to domestic dogs. It was postulated that wolves were in constant competition for higher rank in the hierarchy, and only the aggressive actions of the alpha male and female held the contenders in check. Other behaviorists following Schenkel’s lead also studied captive wolves and confirmed his findings: groups of unrelated wolves brought together in artificial captive environments do, indeed, engage in often-violent and bloody social struggles.

The problem is, that’s not normal wolf behavior. As David Mech stated in the introduction to his study of wild wolves (Mech, 2000), “Attempting to apply information about the behavior of assemblages of unrelated captive wolves to the familial structure of natural packs has resulted in considerable confusion. Such an approach is analogous to trying to draw inferences about human family dynamics by studying humans in refugee camps. The concept of the alpha wolf as a ‘top dog’ ruling a group of similar-aged compatriots (Schenkel 1947; Rabb et al. 1967; Fox 1971a; Zimen 1975, 1982; Lockwood 1979; van Hooff et al. 1987) is particularly misleading.”

What we know now, thanks to Mech and others, is that in the wild, a wolf pack is a family, consisting of a mated pair and their offspring of the past one to three years. Occasionally two or three families may group together. As the offspring mature they disperse from the pack; the only long-term members of the group are the breeding pair. By contrast, in captivity unrelated wolves are forced to live together for many years, creating tension between mature adults that doesn’t happen in a natural, wild pack.


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## Buckelke (Sep 4, 2019)

Wow. I did not realize what a kerfuffle I was starting. I found everyone’s comments interesting and the variety of opinions indicative of the different ways each of us approach our dogs. There is a lot there. Can I assume there is room at the table for everyone?


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

Buckelke said:


> Wow. I did not realize what a kerfuffle I was starting. I found everyone’s comments interesting and the variety of opinions indicative of the different ways each of us approach our dogs. There is a lot there. Can I assume there is room at the table for everyone?


Positive Only trainers such as Victoria Stillwell say that there is only room at the table for them.

_"So yes, there's more than one way to train a dog. But so-called "balanced training" isn't one of them." _- VS


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Buckelke said:


> Wow. I did not realize what a kerfuffle I was starting. I found everyone’s comments interesting and the variety of opinions indicative of the different ways each of us approach our dogs. There is a lot there. Can I assume there is room at the table for everyone?


I'm too busy having fun with my dogs in the woods to just be sitting at the table


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## Antonio91 (Jan 10, 2022)

tim_s_adams said:


> Although I don't subscribe to the "purely positive" mantra for practical and reality, reasons. I do belong to a "force free" forum. And I find they come up with interesting and innovative ways of teaching things that is and can be useful to anyone!
> 
> It's the absolutist's that cause me pause. I believe it's clear communication, both positi e and negative that counts. I don't use a lot of "corrections", and very very few that could ever be considered harsh or intense.
> 
> ...


I spent some time reading on a "force free" forum and, imo, most are not only absolutists but also absolute idiots.

EDITED: We can't share posts or pictures from another forum without permission


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

The problem with Schenkel's work getting such a bad rap is people have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, and look at 'dominance' as a forbidden word.

I studied animal behavior in University, and ANY animal that lives in groups has a pecking order. This is especially true of highly social animals like monkeys and the great apes. With many animals, the dominant male(s) are the ones that get most of the breeding opportunities and lower ranking males either don't mate, or have to do so on the sly while the dominant males aren't looking. Basically, It's Darwin's survival of the fittest in action. The strongest animals get to sire most of the babies.

There's a lot of variation between species, but that's how it is for many animals.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

It seems like a lot of common sense is gone everywhere; it's either black or white. The dog world is not a democracy or a furry kindergarten where everything has to be nice and everyone needs to share. The adults don't think puppies are cute and adolescents are annoying and put into place. There is structure and clarity, which contributes to peace and harmony, give or take a few squabbles. They are the experts in training. I often envy the dog world.


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## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

Sunsilver said:


> The problem with Schenkel's work getting such a bad rap is people have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, and look at 'dominance' as a forbidden word.
> 
> I studied animal behavior in University, and ANY animal that lives in groups has a pecking order. This is especially true of highly social animals like monkeys and the great apes. With many animals, the dominant male(s) are the ones that get most of the breeding opportunities and lower ranking males either don't mate, or have to do so on the sly while the dominant males aren't looking. Basically, It's Darwin's survival of the fittest in action. The strongest animals get to sire most of the babies.
> 
> There's a lot of variation between species, but that's how it is for many animals.


The problem with the human species is we have produced an excess ~5B people and now, it's not survival of the fittest but even idiots have options to reproduce.


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## Sunsilver (Apr 8, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> It seems like a lot of common sense is gone everywhere; it's either black or white. The dog world is not a democracy or a furry kindergarten where everything has to be nice and everyone needs to share. The adults don't think puppies are cute and adolescents are annoying and put into place. There is structure and clarity, which contributes to peace and harmony, give or take a few squabbles. They are the experts in training. I often envy the dog world.


Totally agree! Well said, Wolfy!


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I recently finally managed to train my cat not to be a pest at lunch and dinner times with "non human" +P actually (pet corrector). That was interesting and I was quite surprised I got relatively quick results compared to any -P and human +P I had tried before ("shhhh" him and the like)
The cat is a tiny golden Persian, a singleton who has been partially fed by humans as a new born as his mummy didn't have much milk. To sum it up he's been constantly hand fed and carried everywhere in his breeder's arms. Fed on a kitchen counter, allowed to jump on tables etc.
He's a peculiar cat, and he's obsessed with food, like hardcore obsessed, think Beagle in a cat version.
I didn't get any results with any type of training I had previously used with other cats.
This cat is particularly hard to "startle" so to speak, and particularly tenacious.
I had ended up putting him outside every time we sat at the table, that was the only way to eat peacefully.
But with the pet corrector, I did manage to surprise him just enough so he got down and away. I had to actually use it 3/4 times in total!
With "no" as a precursor.
(And believe me the habit was so ingrained)
The following times, I just said "no !" and grabbed the pet corrector and he got away.
Now about a couple of weeks later, just "no" is enough, and I'm definitely starting to see a deeper change where he's trying ways less often.
It's crazy how "unafraid" of humans this cat is if I may say... Crazy that just air spray instead of human intervention was that efficient.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I believe for that particular cat, the very "clean", non-human nature of the unpleasant stimuli was actually the key.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> For some reason the link won't post from animal health foundation. org so here's a copy if you'd care to do more research.
> 
> The alpha myth is everywhere. Google “alpha dog” on the Internet and you get more than 85 million hits. Really. While not all the sites are about dominating your dog, there are literally millions of resources out there – websites, books, blogs, television shows, veterinarians, trainers and behavior professionals – instructing you to use force and intimidation to overpower your dog into submission. They say that you, the human, must be the alpha. They’re all wrong. Every single one of them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link @dogma13.

One problem I have with this is that Mech also said that another situation where the term "alpha" is appropriate is where you have complex wolf packs with multiple breeders such as in Yellowstone. This would explain why US wolf biologists such as Doug Smith still use the term "alpha".

Mech doesn't like the term "alpha" when talking about _most_ wolf packs because it implies that wolves fought, used force, and competed strongly to get to top of pack.

Further, Mech put out a paper in 2010 called_, __Prolonged Intensive Dominance Behaviour between Gray Wolves Between_. This paper also debunks the idea that all wolves, in the wild, willfully submit with body language and zero force - which is more propaganda that "force free" trainers try and sell.

There are a host of other problems with the idea that dominance theory has been debunked. I think Mike D'Abruzzo's thoughts addresses some of these problems here:









“Dominance in Dog Training Debunked” or is it? – DogTraining.World







dogtraining.world





So what has actually been debunked ???


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## Gwyllgi (Aug 16, 2017)

When I worked as a kennel assistant, in my first week, I was walking a pack of detection dogs in a field, there was one green adolescence Labrador, that had never been told no to biting. The dog was continuously jumping up at me and grabbing my arm, luckily I was wearing a thick coat because I would definitely have puncture marks if I had not. 

I firmly told it NO and used my hands and knee to block the dog and to to keep it from jumping up at me, this went on for 15 minutes during the walk, I decided to put the dog on a leash and walk it but it kept jumping up, so I decided to take the dog back to his kennel . As I walked through the gate, there were two men watching me, I took no notice and put the dog away, then returned to the other dogs.

Later in the morning, I was called into the office, and the welfare officer was there, she said she had received a call that I was using force with a dog, so I explained what was happened and she said she had viewed the CCTV and told me that they never use force methods and follow the training methods of the British Military, Royal Air Force and the Police dog section. She handed me a printed booklet all about positive dog training.

I asked, how can saying no and protecting myself with my hands and knee to stop the dog from jumping up at me and biting be considered force, as I never kneed or pushed the dog but blocked the dog? I asked, then what would you suggest for next time? I was told to keep a bag of treats on me, and when the dog bites, I wait for it to let go and then reward with a treat.

I asked, who the two men were, as it was apparent that they had made the complaint. She said they were the senior dog trainers, so I said then why did they not come into the field to help out, and her reply was they do not get involved.

She said that she would do some training with the dog, as she admitted the dog was being a nuisance. I asked if I could watch, as I wanted to see positive training but she said no, she wanted to do it without distractions. She took the dog into the field and the dog began to jump and bite, and was being very rough; all she did was start throwing treats at the dog and using a clicker, it made no difference and once she ran out of treats the dog began to mount her. She left the field without the dog, I asked how did it go, she said it went well but would need a few more sessions. The dog had no more lessons, and when sent abroad, I was told he was still biting.

That was my experience of positive only training.


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## oink (Jan 31, 2021)

Gwyllgi said:


> When I worked as a kennel assistant, in my first week, I was walking a pack of detection dogs in a field, there was one green adolescence Labrador, that had never been told no to biting. The dog was continuously jumping up at me and grabbing my arm, luckily I was wearing a thick coat because I would definitely have puncture marks if I had not.
> 
> I firmly told it NO and used my hands and knee to block the dog and to to keep it from jumping up at me, this went on for 15 minutes during the walk, I decided to put the dog on a leash and walk it but it kept jumping up, so I decided to take the dog back to his kennel . As I walked through the gate, there were two men watching me, I took no notice and put the dog away, then returned to the other dogs.
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate that was your only experience with positive only training. Some people just need to exhibit logic and reason. Your comfort is just as important as the dog's. It's unreasonable to let the dog bite you. That's ridiculous. I'd punt a dog if it was coming at me and I have given several warnings.

That said, I would suggest people hesitate from letting one experience shape their stereotype of a group. Some great trainers are Denise Fenzi. Kikopup. Sympawtico. Force free focuses on building a relationship with your dog instead of forcing compulsion. That's it. What's so wrong with that? 
Even Denise gets crap from the extreme positive only end for simply saying "no" to her pup. 

There are crazies everywhere. And these crazies are always the loudest. The original post here is also one of those loud crazy posts imo. Putting down a whole method using one extreme example is extremely distasteful. No reasonable person would suggest letting a dog bite you and waiting to let go.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@hanshund the author is very skilled at picking bits and pieces out of others writings out of context to support his views.Very persuasive!


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> @hanshund the author is very skilled at picking bits and pieces out of others writings out of context to support his views.Very persuasive!


Are you referring to Mike or the author of the article you posted?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

hanshund said:


> Are you referring to Mike or the author of the article you posted?


Mr.D'Abruzzo's


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> Mr.D'Abruzzo's


Fair enough. Can you please give at least one example?

And again for anyone, what actually has been debunked?

The idea that the human does not need to be "alpha" over their dog?


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

Here is a video from Mike on this topic. If you think he has taken things out of context please point them out. I'm not trying to prove anything. Just trying to learn.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

hanshund said:


> Fair enough. Can you please give at least one example?
> 
> And again for anyone, what actually has been debunked?
> 
> The idea that the human does not need to be "alpha" over their dog?


I just posted the article because it had links on the website for those that were interested in the subject,not to debate about the studies.My personal experience (if that's of interest) of living with multiple dogs for the past 20 years has been I've never seen "alpha" behavior. Depending on each dog's skill level and temperment one will take the lead in a specific situation but it's very fluid.There's no boss.
I have an acquaintance with two rotties and a blue and gold Mackaw.He told me when the bird decides to walk across the room the dogs stop whatever they're doing and move aside. Alpha Bird!


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

hanshund said:


> The idea that the human does not need to be "alpha" over their dog?


I think you need to first define alpha. A Human does not need to physically dominate or be aggressive with their dog. They do need to be the leader who sets the rules.


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## Mannix (12 mo ago)

drparker151 said:


> A Human does not need to physically dominate or be aggressive with their dog. They do need to be the leader who sets the rules.


And there it is.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

drparker151 said:


> I think you need to first define alpha. A Human does not need to physically dominate or be aggressive with their dog. They do need to be the leader who sets the rules.


I agree with that for the most part. What I'm asking, is when someone says "dominance theory" is debunked, what has actually been debunked?

I googled the reference Dogma gave me:

_"The alpha myth is everywhere. Google “alpha dog” on the Internet and you get more than 85 million hits. Really. While not all the sites are about dominating your dog, there are literally millions of resources out there – websites, books, blogs, television shows, veterinarians, trainers and behavior professionals – instructing you to use force and intimidation to overpower your dog into submission. *They say that you, the human, must be the alpha. They’re all wrong*. Every single one of them."_

So is the above what we are talking about when people say "dominance theory" is debunked?


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

Mannix said:


> And there it is.


So if you have to physically pick up your puppy, you don't think that is being physically dominant?

Or, if you have to restrain your dog in some way, to cut their nails, you don't think that is physically dominant?


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> I just posted the article because it had links on the website for those that were interested in the subject,not to debate about the studies.My personal experience (if that's of interest) of living with multiple dogs for the past 20 years has been I've never seen "alpha" behavior. *Depending on each dog's skill level and temperment one will take the lead in a specific situation but it's very fluid.There's no boss.*
> I have an acquaintance with two rotties and a blue and gold Mackaw.He told me when the bird decides to walk across the room the dogs stop whatever they're doing and move aside. Alpha Bird!


There is an ultimate boss. And the fluidity that you and Ian speak of are behaviors that can be seen in wolves


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

hanshund said:


> if you have to physically pick up your puppy, you don't think that is being physically dominant?
> 
> Or, if you have to restrain your dog in some way, to cut their nails, you don't think that is physically dominant?


Picking up a puppy out of necessity is in no way intimidating or domineering. And that's really what people talk about when talking about "dominance training methods".

Of course, one can split hairs endlessly. I've done this a time or three when talking to purely positive purists, and it was quite entertaining.

The thing I personally like about Ian Dunbar is that he's all about boundaries and doesn't hesitate to tell his dogs to "knock it off" or to "be quiet". 

He's also a realist, in that he has worked with balanced trainers as well, and my understanding of his advice was in essence, if you choose to use corrections in dog training to stop a certain behavior, then do it sufficiently harshly so that the behavior is truly diminished. Don't just nag.

IMHO if you have to restrain a dog to trim his nails, you've got a relationship problem with the dog...


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## car2ner (Apr 9, 2014)

drparker151 said:


> I think you need to first define alpha. A Human does not need to physically dominate or be aggressive with their dog. They do need to be the leader who sets the rules.


Instead of Alpha, that can be misunderstood a thousand different ways, I just say I am the "benevolent dictator" or "she who must be obeyed". Having realistic expectations of what a dog understands and what a dog can do, makes reasonable rules a bit easier. But dogs have to know the lines they cannot cross, and rewarding them to not cross those lines only works when the competing motivator is lesser. They have to learn to take NO for an answer, no matter how we choose to communicate what NO means. It doesn't always have to violent but it does need to be clear and strong.


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## Mannix (12 mo ago)

hanshund said:


> So if you have to physically pick up your puppy, you don't think that is being physically dominant?
> No.
> The only times I've picked up my dogs is for the "last ride" to the vet because they were going lame. Or when bringing a new puppy home.
> 
> ...


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

Okay, call me stupid but I think I figured out what they are talking about in regards to "dominance theory" and it is far from being "debunked". Don't get me wrong, I believe in mainly positive and motivational training. My problem is that when someone says "dominance theory is debunked", nothing has really been debunked and in essence is nothing more than a cute way to say that +P punishment is debunked.

Here is an excerpt from AVSAB position statement on use of dominance theory:

"AVSAB is concerned with the recent re-emergence of dominance theory and forcing dogs and other animals into submission as a means of preventing and correcting behavior problems. For decades, some traditional animal training has relied on dominance theory and has assumed that animals misbehave primarily because they are striving for higher rank. This idea often leads trainers to believe that force or coercion must be used to modify these undesirable behaviors."

"Applying Dominance Theory to Human Animal Interactions Can Pose Problems Even in the relatively few cases where aggression is related to rank, applying animal social theory and mimicking how animals would respond can pose a problem. First, it can cause one to use punishment, which may suppress aggression without addressing the underlying cause. Because fear and anxiety are common causes of aggression and other behavior problems, including those that mimic resource guarding, the use of punishment can directly exacerbate the problem by increasing the animal’s fear or anxiety (AVSAB 2007)."

"Second, it fails to recognize that with wild animals, dominance-submissive relationships are reinforced through warning postures and ritualistic dominance and submissive displays. If the relationship is stable, then the submissive animal defers automatically to the dominant individual. If the relationship is less stable, the dominant individual has a more aggressive personality, or the dominant individual is less confident about its ability to maintain a higher rank, continued aggressive displays occur (Yin 2007, Yin 2009)."

Here is the whole statement: StackPath

When I googled @dogma13 reference yesterday I only had a snippet of the whole article. Here is the whole article that "force free" trainers like to cite:








Debunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory - Whole Dog Journal


Exerting "dominance" over your dog is the wrong way to build a good relationship. We debunk the alpha dog theory and show how to build a good relationship.




www.whole-dog-journal.com





Read the whole article above and IMO, the following excerpt is what "dominance theory debunked" boils down to in the eyes of the force free ideology - POSITIVE PUNISHMENT:

_' “But,” some will argue, “look at all the dogs who have been successfully trained throughout the past century using the dominance model. Those trainers can’t be all wrong.” '

"In fact, harsh force-based methods (in technical parlance, *“positive punishment”*) are a piece of operant conditioning, and as the decades have proven, those methods can work. They are especially good at shutting down behaviors – convincing a dog that it’s not safe to do anything unless instructed to do something. And yes, that works with some dogs. With others, not so much."_

And I agree with @tim.s.adams that in force free eyes +P includes intimidation, coercion, etc.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> Picking up a puppy out of necessity is in no way intimidating or domineering. And that's really what people talk about when talking about "dominance training methods".
> 
> Of course, one can split hairs endlessly. I've done this a time or three when talking to purely positive purists, and it was quite entertaining.
> 
> ...


Some puppies don't like being picked up. When you pick up puppy against its will, you are being dominant. But I understand your point in regards to "dominance training methods".

As far as Dunbar, what do you think of Mike's statement at around the 27 minute mark in video? :

_"Dr. Ian Dunbar's public denial of dominance being a factor in dog training completely contradicts his own research and what he teaches in paid seminars."_


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

@Mannix 
It seems you are saying that "dominance theory" is NOT debunked ?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@hanshund it seems you are talking about different aspects than I was. I was only referring to the earlier studies that said dogs mirrored captive wolves behavior therefore dictated the best way to train and communicate with them.That has been debunked. Obviously dominant behavior is a real thing among many species including humans. And birds.


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> @hanshund it seems you are talking about different aspects than I was. I was only referring to the earlier studies that said dogs mirrored captive wolves behavior therefore dictated the best way to train and communicate with them.That has been debunked. Obviously dominant behavior is a real thing among many species including humans. And birds.


No, I'm just asking what exactly was debunked when someone says "dominance/alpha theory is debunked".

You are saying there is study that says "dogs mirrored captive wolves behavior therefore dictated the best way to train and communicate with them.That has been debunked."

I missed this study. Can you please post it ?


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## hanshund (Oct 13, 2021)

@dogma13 

BTW, I don't believe dog behavior are mirrored in captive wolves. If that is what the theory is then I would agree with you.

I will say that there is much about wolf behavior that certainly does apply to dogs. Heck, you can even buy a wolf hybrid as dogs can mate with wolves.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Here's a recent paper with pretty good review of studies re dominance in dogs: The Indispensable Dog


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## Rionel (Jun 17, 2020)

A lot of times this kind of topic grows tentacles based on different understandings of terms. Some only attach meaning to a term once a method/correction exceeds their own opinion of what is harsh. I just the other day watched a video of one of the positive only pioneers, where he consistently taught vocal punishments and hard leash corrections, so there’s that. If you look at nature, a mother dog nips her pups in the side of the neck to deter bad behaviors, so there’s that. The answer to me is that behaviors an methods come in degrees. I tend to be more in the Ed Frawley camp than some. Here’s his perspective: Leerburg | The Problem with All-Positive Dog Training


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@hanshund like I said before I was just encouraging you and others to pursue more information if the subject seemed interesting. You apparently are super interested,so have at it


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## gtaroger (Aug 4, 2015)

My sister and her husband had a Brittany Spaniel that ever time you opened there gate she would run out and put her nose to the ground and start running and smelling everthing she could. She would not come back when called, You would see the dog running down the street with a whole bunch of people chasing it.They ask me to watch their dog when they went on vacation for two weeks.I took the Brit and my GSD for a walk every day for the two weeks.I took them to the park near my home. I would let them off the leases but before I did that I connected the Brit to my dogs collar with a 6 ft nylon strap. I let them run around for awhile and then I would call the Brit to come,when she didn't come I would call her again in a firmer tone. When she didn't come then I called my dog . He came back full bore. She got drug a couple feet a couple times . After a few days she cought on. When I called her she came running with my dog.After the first week I could let her off leash and she came on the first call.When my sister came back I didn't say a word to her. She thought the Brit have just got smart on it's own. I told her husband and we got a good laugh. From then on they never had to chase their dog.Some may say that was mean,but it worked and the dog was never hurt


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> @hanshund the author is very skilled at picking bits and pieces out of others writings out of context to support his views.Very persuasive!


Accuse someone of taking something out of context but provide no examples or proof.



dogma13 said:


> I was only referring to the earlier studies that said dogs mirrored captive wolves behavior therefore dictated the best way to train and communicate with them.


No studies to cite either.



dogma13 said:


> @hanshund like I said before I was just encouraging you and others to pursue more information if the subject seemed interesting. You apparently are super interested,so have at it


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

hanshund said:


> Some puppies don't like being picked up. When you pick up puppy against its will, you are being dominant. But I understand your point in regards to "dominance training methods".
> 
> As far as Dunbar, what do you think of Mike's statement at around the 27 minute mark in video? :
> 
> _"Dr. Ian Dunbar's public denial of dominance being a factor in dog training completely contradicts his own research and what he teaches in paid seminars."_


Dunbar is a fraud.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

BdeAngelo said:


> Accuse someone of taking something out of context but provide no examples or proof.
> 
> 
> No studies to cite either.


Sorry, but I'm not interested in debate or doing research for people that they can easily do for themselves. There were some studies printed at the bottom of the article I posted - the reason I posted that particular one.I've read them already and satisfied my own curiosity long ago.I'm assuming that the curious folks are adept at Googling and forming their own opinions.I have nothing else to add.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

BdeAngelo said:


> Dunbar is a fraud.


Can you cite the research on that?


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## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

gtaroger said:


> My sister and her husband had a Brittany Spaniel that ever time you opened there gate she would run out and put her nose to the ground and start running and smelling everthing she could. She would not come back when called, You would see the dog running down the street with a whole bunch of people chasing it.


Great that you solved the issue. BUT, just throwing this out there, a better solution for the dog would have been appropriate exercise and maybe some nose games to satisfy her natural energy and drives. Brittany's aren't really couch dogs. 
I'm all cool with a bit of rough justice if it saves the dog, but I would rather see owners step up and be owners. 
Also tell your sister next time run away from the dog. Don't chase the dog, make the dog chase you.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I just had a look at the Leeburg article and it was exactly my impression about opinion categories in positive only, and the difference between sport and real life.
- "I know all positive sport trainers making headway with their appropriate puppy that they’ve raised in a strict system and they're managing every aspect of their dog’s life. This doesn't mean the dogs listen for crap outside the 'sport work' though. And these same trainers don’t do pet training because they can’t be as successful. They just avoid it."

In a nutshell humans will mostly be humans (I kind of hope so) in the way they interact with their dogs on a daily basis.
Then in training there will be different goals and levels of expertise.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

It's absolutism that can get quite scary. I've watched some clicker training geeks' vids in the past that were hard to watch for me.
Like denying the dog's ability to make any sense of what's going on or human intention really.
Just crazy click and treat all the way, for anything...
I have no intention to train my dogs like lab rats any soon, no desire to go there with whatever tool or method.


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## Chloé&Buck (Jul 1, 2020)

I'm quite exposed to "rescue" social content through my fostering activity. And I've seen complete nonsense going on, where people with poor skills but a lot of positive "ideas" literally ruin the dog's chances and keep postponing adoption opportunities by doing BS.
Like a tiny barky terrier I've seen recently, who was just an excitable dog with NO real issue whatsoever, just needed some structure to settle down really.
Yet that dog was deemed "not ready for adoption" because he was so "reactive" to other dogs.
In the video, you could see a woman walking that little overexcited thing on a retractable leash with a couple of Shih Tzus walked by other women.
Zero structure, complete nonsense from the first second to the last.
Throwing kibble on the ground and exciting that poor dog even more with high-pitched "yayyyyyyyy Joy ! Come on come on come on ! Yayyyyy ! Come on !".
Extremely bad timing, they were actually rewarding the dog for barking multiple times in just a couple minutes of video.
Anyway, the nonsense has been going on for nearly a year now with that dog. She still doesn't have a family.
You check that association web page they'll be all about "positive training" when the truth is they mostly have no clue.
I know it's volunteering, I'm not expecting everyone to be an expert or even have any training skills. But sometimes they should definitely cut it and let someone who knows what they are doing take over if it's not on their skillset.
They won't. (A whole freaking year guys. This dog doesn't even have what most of us here would call an issue)
Thing is there are so many dogs in the system they can't all be managed by common sense people. There's this whole backstage rescue madness going on, you wouldn't believe it unless see it.
So many dogs get stuck for no reason. It's bad you know, not just the occasional blunder.
Sorry for the depressing post. Lol
There are also people doing GREAT stuff out there, of course!


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## gonzales (12 mo ago)

Ivan and the doctor don't think dominance theory is debunked. Doctor says David Mech was under a lot of pressure from extremists. Should be ready to play at 1:28:00


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## gonzales (12 mo ago)

Larry Krohn smiles at the idea that dominance theory is debunked - 17:20


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

I guess that dominance theory needs to be defined before it can be debunked. Rank dogs exist. Leadership is important. How you live with a dog matters. I've alpha rolled a total of 3 dogs in my lifetime, and I've trained hundreds. Only a very few have constantly challenged me to be in charge. 

Maybe someday I'll figure out how to explain leadership. Larry probably does it better than me. When you react appropriately all the time, these struggles are minimized.


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

David Winners said:


> Yeah. That's Fama. I was going to find that and post it on this thread
> 
> There are a couple high level trainers that successfully use +R and -P only. Shade Whitsell has titled a few dogs without corrections, and I think Mario Versleppe(sp?) is still on that path. I don't follow those groups on FB so others may know more.
> 
> It's a lot of work and it takes a trainer that understands dogs very well (better than me).


As far as I know Mario Verslype still trains successfully using only +R and -P. A friend of mine had the pleasure of training with him and used Hasco van de Duvetorre as sire to his Malinois litter. Sadly us mere mortals can only dream of being as skilled as such a trainer and handler.


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## TayStrike (12 mo ago)

I rarely get into the "positive v balanced" training debate. I hate black and white conversations as there are always many shades of grey in my mind. Two of my favourite trainers are Denise Fenzi (positive) and Michael Ellis (balanced). I take from each what I feel is valuable for my dogs and how I train. In the UK prong and electric collars are rarely seen outside of IGP dog/protection dog type training and are far less common than, say, in the US. I haven't yet felt the need to use either. That is not to say I wouldn't consider them if I felt they were appropriate. I train mostly force free and motivationally but I do teach my dogs what "no" means and that there are consequences for unwanted behaviour that has been taught, tested and proofed. My youngest bitch likes to chase deer and hares. I could use an ecollar for that training, and I am not entirely against that, but prefer to try a different approach first (more engagement and obedience training). And positive does not mean permissive in my house.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I am still waiting on an answer from BuckElke from my post #5.
I alpha rolled one dog ever. A 4 month old Chow cross I got out of the shelter to foster. Coming home she immediately took on the leader of my dogs (whippet) and he had a hard time getting her convinced that you don't do that. She also took me on and I put her on her side, rested my arm on her neck and from then on she was the sweetest dog, to every one, including her new owners. She lived happily with them for 14 years, roamed the neighborhood, visiting her neighbors whenever she could escape. Never caused an issue.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Personally I don't care how close their pack structure is to wolves or if there is any. I train them by starting to teach them and there are consequences, without abusing them, when they give me the middle finger. I use techniques that I think fit the dog and if it turns out not to be effective, I change technique and/ or tools. It makes me cringe when I see how wolves behave with each other during meals, greetings etc. Domestication was a good thing.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

No sharing of FB pages.It's against forum rules.


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> Can you cite the research on that?


LOL. Did you and your likers even bother to read the post I responded to?

Below is the post and if you research that for a few minutes you can literally watch the deceit roll out of his mouth. The video was posted on page six. There is more than that too 




hanshund said:


> Some puppies don't like being picked up. When you pick up puppy against its will, you are being dominant. But I understand your point in regards to "dominance training methods".
> 
> As far as Dunbar, what do you think of Mike's statement at around the* 27 minute mark in video*? :
> 
> _*"Dr. Ian Dunbar's public denial of dominance being a factor in dog training completely contradicts his own research and what he teaches in paid seminars."*_


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## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

BdeAngelo said:


> Dunbar is a fraud.


Ian Dunbar has been one of the most influential individuals of the past century. You can agree or disagree with his approach. But he HAS shown, scientifically, that his positive reinforcement methods work and work well.

You can dispute and disagree with that all you want, but he clearly tested and documented his results. So, show us yours!

I'm a balanced trainer, not at all sold on the "force free" ideal that some people seem to struggle under. But Ian Dunbar, did us all a favor by showing us all a better way.

Not sure at all why you are so opposed, but seriously, Ian is no villain here...


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

I don't think ID is a fraud. Whatever he told about pack structure, I have seen in my own group of dogs. An animal behaviorist (PhD) called the middle ranked dogs 'Social Climbers'. In this group of 4 of mine I had a social climber male, the great teacher (hardly dare to call him "Alpha" anymore), a subordinate male and a witty female who outsmarted all males when ever she wanted to have something. The only fight between the intact males I saw, was when I introduced a female foster dog that came into heat. So in that regard I agree with ID. What I don't share with him is to allow dogs to sleep on beds, just because "you live with them so why not share?" Sorry, ID, I like to sleep in a clean bed, without sand, mud and hair to roll over in and I still feel like I share my life with them. In the video he shows (I think) his own dogs which are totally of a different caliber than the WL GSDs I have had and currently own. When ever you follow someone with authority, like ID, blindly, you tend to run into guilt and confusion. In a balanced family pack, I know dogs don't injure each other but they DO correct each other so why can't we?


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

wolfy dog said:


> I don't think ID is a fraud. Whatever he told about pack structure, I have seen in my own group of dogs. An animal behaviorist (PhD) called the middle ranked dogs 'Social Climbers'. In this group of 4 of mine I had a social climber male, the great teacher (hardly dare to call him "Alpha" anymore), a subordinate male and a witty female who outsmarted all males when ever she wanted to have something. The only fight between the intact males I saw, was when I introduced a female foster dog that came into heat. So in that regard I agree with ID. What I don't share with him is to allow dogs to sleep on beds, just because "you live with them so why not share?" Sorry, ID, I like to sleep in a clean bed, without sand, mud and hair to roll over in and I still feel like I share my life with them. In the video he shows (I think) his own dogs which are totally of a different caliber than the WL GSDs I have had and currently own. When ever you follow someone with authority, like ID, blindly, you tend to run into guilt and confusion. In a balanced family pack, I know dogs don't injure each other but they DO correct each other so why can't we?


You are looking at the wrong video. Start watching at the *27 minute mark until end of video*. I edited to make it easier. Just press play and it should automatically go to 27 minute mark.

_"Dr. Ian Dunbar's public denial of dominance being a factor in dog training completely contradicts his own research and what he teaches in paid seminars."_


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## BdeAngelo (Dec 13, 2021)

tim_s_adams said:


> Ian Dunbar has been one of the most influential individuals of the past century. You can agree or disagree with his approach. But he HAS shown, scientifically, that his positive reinforcement methods work and work well.
> 
> You can dispute and disagree with that all you want, but he clearly tested and documented his results. So, show us yours!
> 
> ...


I know positive reinforcement works well and no one is saying otherwise.

All I said is that he's a fraud and the one video clip that was posted, IMO, shows his deceit. There is more than that too.


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## peterz (12 mo ago)

BdeAngelo said:


> I know positive reinforcement works well and no one is saying otherwise.
> 
> All I said is that he's a fraud and the one video clip that was posted, IMO, shows his deceit. There is more than that too.


I spoke to Ivan over the internet regarding APDT/AVSAB and his podcast with Michael Ellis. Told him that Dunbar is fraud and he liked it.


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