# Play biting question



## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Quick question..

As most of you know by now....Bane is a little of 6 months old...Training for SchH....

During training sessions, I will "break" and me and Bane will run around rough housing....My arms and the back of my legs are pretty bruised from his teeth....lol....We will play around for a short while, then I'll get him focused right back to obedience. 

We will run around, I'll give him a slight push off, and continue running...Usually he ends up with my arm...Not much pressure, the pinching is what's bruising me...When he nips me with the end of his teeth...

I'm not causing a future bad habit by this type of play am I? I consider it periods of fun/rough play during obedience.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Personally, I would not play this way. It is unstructured and is causing him to be Undisciplined in his biting and getting rewarded for it. You can accomplish the same thing by playing tug, two hose, or fetch. With lots of praise and high pitched reward. 

But that just me. Someone with more SchH experience hopefully will chime in. 


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

gsdsar said:


> Personally, I would not play this way. It is unstructured and is causing him to be Undisciplined in his biting and getting rewarded for it. You can accomplish the same thing by playing tug, two hose, or fetch. With lots of praise and high pitched reward.
> 
> But that just me. Someone with more SchH experience hopefully will chime in.
> 
> ...


Thank you...Makes sense....I haven't been playing this game long, so I can get it stopped if needed....I was using a tug or fetch before. Habits I want to keep to a minimum...I know there will be some along the way created by me....
I'm still a work in progress for "thinking like a dog". Haha


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't mind rough housing with the dog. I think it's great bonding as well as teaching good bite inhibition and impulse control etc. But I wouldn't do it in a middle of a training session. That can confuse the dog. I also don't do it often. I'd rather use a helper and save my arm from bruises.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I wouldn't do it. I don't think it will ruin your dog or anything or interfere with bitework (dog should know the difference) but personally I don't like dogs' teeth on me. There are plenty of toys and other ways to channel the interaction without me ending up like a pin cushion.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

I've never had the desire to rough house with any of my dogs.. Maybe because I'm female.. "I" think it "can" put you on a different playing level with the dog..

Sure, I'll push my dogs away from me while training and excite them with my voice.. They'll jump on me and push me for the toy I have.. But I do not want them putting their mouth on me or wanting/allowing them to bite at me..


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## Lucky Dog (Dec 1, 2012)

Interesting thread. I torment my dog every day. BUT he doesn't nip at me . He will hold my hand but thats it. He will bite a little if ya have your hand under a blanket an move it around.. He watches the expression on your face if he is biting to hard.  That's blanket monster time for him. He goes crazy. After we are done ya tell him "enuff" and he stops. I pull on his tail, ears, extra skin under his neck, feet, nose and his tongue.. I stick my hand in his bowl while he is eating. If he has a bone I will just take it out of his mouth to "play" with him. He just looks at ya . Reason why I do this is in case kids start playing with him. Hunter is at a farm, winter house and a lake house. Did I say kids always around ?? He is gentle as can be. Could care less what ya take away from him. Oh Hunter just turned 4 a2 months ago. God I love these dogs !!! Have had them since the mid 60's. 


His favorite "look".. He thinks hes tuff !!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

His teeth are gorgeous! What do you feed him LuckyDog?
I agree with the others that the rough play should be structured to a toy, not you if the dog wants to bite while playing. 
Targeting the sleeve for the bite in IPO is done early on, better to train with that in mind so the dog doesn't think dirty biting the helper is acceptable.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

I think some on here don't rough house with their dogs and they don't do it because of what they THINK will happen and aren't really speaking from experience. 

My dog doesn't treat me like a chew toy and he never initiates play. He also doesn't go around biting family members or strangers to try to play. It's only me. Also his bite is still deep and full on a sleeve. He will thrash and pull on a sleeve but not with my arm. The dog isn't stupid. Has anyone ever had rough housing effect bite work? I'm talking about real experience and not just hypotheticals behind a computer screen?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

No, some of us just choose not too.. Nor do we see a need! 

Really, since this is in the schh thread- I don't know anyone that I've ever trained with or clubs that I've been to and associated with who rough house and let their dogs bite on them, they choose to channel the dogs energy in other ways..

I'm sure there are people in the sport that do.. I've just not met one yet..


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

G-burg said:


> No, some of us just choose not too.. Nor do we see a need!


Yes this is exactly my point. So how can some of you really answer the Ops question when you don't know the positives or negatives first hand? You yourself said you don't even know of anyone that rough houses so you don't even have second hand experience. I promise you there are schutzhund people that rough house with their dog once in a while. It's not training. It's just playing around. Most of them of course are men. 

I stand by my own experience that playing with your dog in a rough way does not effect bite work or confuse the dog in any way. Of course that's just one persons experience.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Boomer what is the benefit of letting your dog clamp down on you? Rough housing and allowing a dog to bite 'in play' are different. I rough house with my dog, he gets whacked, kicked, pushed yet there is a line of control to this play. It has nothing really to do with IPO and the protection work that is involved, but the mutual respect of being a team.


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> I stand by my own experience that playing with your dog in a rough way does not effect bite work or confuse the dog in any way. Of course that's just one persons experience.


 Just out of curiosity boomer.. How long have you been training in SchH? And how many dogs have you owned and trained? Just would like a little back ground on your experience with dogs and the sport?


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Boomer what is the benefit of letting your dog clamp down on you? Rough housing and allowing a dog to bite 'in play' are different. I rough house with my dog, he gets whacked, kicked, pushed yet there is a line of control to this play. It has nothing really to do with IPO and the protection work that is involved, but the mutual respect of being a team.


I never said playing with your dog has anything to do with ipo or schutzhund. My dog is also controlled while rough housing. I'm sure you all have seen the video of me playing rough with my dog. It's play and the dog knows it. 

And to the other poster I've only owned two dogs and only one is currently training in schutzhund but isn't even old enough to get his bh. But Ive actually done bite work and rough house. All I said was it's kinda funny people who have never rough housed are telling the op it could cause this and that. How would you know? How can you persuade or dissuade someone when you don't know?


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

But why even go down that road?

I don't think it would effect bite work, but I do think it can cause relationship issues in "some" dogs.. Hence the reason I said it can put you on a different playing field with your dog.. And that I do know for a fact.. Especially as the dog matures.

I guess I could say the same to you boomer.. One dog... Maybe your next dog will be different??? So how can you advocate something when you've only had one experience, with one dog??


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

The OP asked about their situation, you are sharing your limited experience. It may not bode well with a more serious dog that isn't as balanced. I agree with Leesa, why go down that road? Especially if this is JMoores 1st dog, why cause any conflict when it isn't necessary.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I answered honestly. No, I don't and would not do it because *I personally do not want to encourage teeth on me*. It has NOTHING to do with bitework or me worrying whether it will trigger something in my dog or me being afraid of my own dog, absolutely not. I just like my clothes and outdoor gear intact is all. I guess my idea of "rough housing" with a dog is something more productive, like agility, flyball, fetch. Let's channel the drive an energy into something fun for both of us and not me running around with my dog nipping at my heels or sleeves. Like Leesa said earlier, I do allow sort of a pushing around where the dog is pushing a toy or tug into me and my dogs have a signal for when they can jump on my chest with their toy. Nikon actually likes to tug sideways where I have him in a headlock, but I just personally don't think play needs to involve the dog nipping at me. I've got enough torn clothing from my puppies!


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

> Quick question..
> 
> As most of you know by now....Bane is a little of 6 months old...Training for SchH....
> 
> ...


 And really the OP was talking about obedience and not bite work..


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Again it's just one persons experience. I agree it could cause relationship issues with some dog. To me I think it's great bonding and my dog might be amped up but he'll out the instant I ask. It's good obedience training with a dog that is amped up. If things change or something bad happens I'll be the first on here telling everyone the bad changes in my dog . But for now when my dog wants to play he'll still bring me his ball and whine like a big baby. I do agree there are better ways to play with a dog but rough housing isn't an absolute no no unless it's done every day or in the context of formal training.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The rough housing I'm saying no to is what the OP described, the dog grabbing his arm, pinching and causing bruising with frontal bites and nipping. What can be gained by that other than bruised limps and punctured clothing? lol Tugging, having a dog bounce off my chest, "fighting" with toys with the dog pushing into me, giving the dog some thumps on the side while tugging...all fine for me and used often in play and training. Plenty of opportunities to reward a dog that's asking for play/interaction and for practicing outs without having the dog actually biting flesh.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

And it might be hard for ladies to understand but rough housing is fun for guys; whether it's with a dog or kids.

Isn't that why there's a bunch of jokes about why women live longer than men?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Why does it have to involve teeth? I've never allowed kids to bite and pinch as part of playing. Wrestling around...whatever, fine.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

boomer11 said:


> do agree there are better ways to play with a dog but rough housing isn't an absolute no no unless it's done every day or in the context of formal training.



Exactly. The OP is talking about doing it in the middle of formal obedience training, not occasionally in his house. 

I think we may now all be on the same page. 



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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Why does it have to involve teeth? I've never allowed kids to bite and pinch as part of playing. Wrestling around...whatever, fine.


It doesn't have to involve teeth but gsd's use their teeth to play, humans don't. but if the dog has enough bite inhibition to not puncture my skin then I don't mind the bruises and by the sound of the op's post it doesn't seem like he minds the bruises either. Like I said, some guys don't mind rough play.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You seem to be thinking it is a gender thing? I have a nice puncture in my thumb right now from roughhousing play. It was not because I encouraged anything, but when dogs get ramped up in play, targeting is important. Not a fan of getting bit during obedience but it does happen now and then. I don't need to encourage it.
You seem to think that bruises are something to show off? Does it make your dog 'badder' if you have more color?
I'd much rather be teaching my dog something in a session while encouraging the engagement, enthusiasm and capping the drive state. Not playing a game of chase/ tag.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

boomer11 said:


> It doesn't have to involve teeth but gsd's use their teeth to play, humans don't.


Right, so I let my dogs play bite at each other for several hours a day but see no value in me crawling around on all fours and getting in on the action.

If bruises are cool then I prefer the kind where the decoy for my dog is showing off how the dog was biting full and hard through the bite suit, not frontal bites on me.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> You seem to think that bruises are something to show off? Does it make your dog 'badder' if you have more color?


How did you come to this conclusion about me? Because I think playing rough is fun?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

boomer11 said:


> How did you come to this conclusion about me? Because I think playing rough is fun?


from this:


> * I don't mind the bruises *and by the sound of the op's post it doesn't seem like he minds the bruises either. Like I said,* some guys don't mind rough play*.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Yes I don't mind rough play or the bruises. I don't think a lot of people mind physicality. How does this mean I think bruises are cool and want to show them off? Pretty judgemental and ignorant don't you think? 

Anyways I'm out of this thread. Imo in whatever you are doing, if both the dog and you are having fun then I don't see a problem. I'm in the minority here so maybe I'm just sick in the head? Btw I do think it does have a bit to do with gender. Getting bit accidentally during training is not the same as wanting to be physical. I think men in general don't mind the physicality.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

you just contradicted yourself in your post. I don't see where I was showing ignorance or judgement in my comment. You posted your thoughts. And never did I say anything judgemental. Training is physical... and getting bit is a normal part of training. I don't know why you are being so defensive. Biting in fun or play/reward(free!)isn't something though, that I'd encourage during obedience(the whole point of this thread?). And if a dog thinks biting is ok, then they may get dirty and need fixing or correcting when doing the protection phase. My dog bumps now and then in the blind, I don't need him thinking he can take a nip here or there to get the game on sooner.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Right because saying I seem to think bruises are cool and want to show them off all because I said I don't mind playing rough? Lol yeah NOT judgement and definitely not ignorant at all haha 

And to answer your other question, no I don't think my dog is "badder" the more bruises I have.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Boomer, you keep using the word ignorant but I don't think you know what it means.


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## Liz&Anna (Oct 29, 2013)

I know that it is a different breed- but I have a friend who shows and trains corsos and she does this with her dog right before they go out to show or to compete (I literally just watched we title in rally 2 days ago) and she gets C very excited by rough play, then immediately heads to the floor ditching any treats or toys. So maybe use it to get the dog excited or more showy before hand not during? Every dog is going to be different, and yes C'ianna is not a gsd. But I don't think it's totally unheard of to do this AND she also competes in SCH, C just turned 2 and has gotten her BH se goes for her 1 this summer.


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## Blanketback (Apr 27, 2012)

It's possible to teach your dog that mouthing is allowed, but using jaw pressure isn't. I do this with my pup, without having any problems with cuts or bruises, lol. But I don't train in bitework, so if I did then I'd ask the trainer if this play was confusing to the dog. I used to flutter my hand as a reward for recall (his soft gumming on it) when I had my 4 month old puppy out on off-leash walks and neither treats nor toys would motivate him, but contact with me _always_ did. That's how I viewed it, and I'll admit that I could be all wrong about it, but it worked fabulously for us.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Sorry......I should of explained in a little more detail or thought it through a little more....Bane has always been real mouthy....When playing with tug or ball on rope with him, etc, times he will come off the tug or whatever toy and goes for my ankles, back of my legs, etc....Majority of the time, this happens when I end the play session and put the type up....Thinking of it now, in my situation, I probably shouldn't be letting him bite on me...I don't mind it now, but again, my goal through this process is to minimize new handler errors....They are starting to add up....

Example....He does this when he is amped up and in prey drive. When I end the session, he wants to continue playing...Except using my ankles as his prey...Sunday, we were at the club, after they worked Bane, I was in the process of taking him back to the truck.,,,He was still wanting to go and was going after my ankles all the way back to the truck. 

Also, he tries to initiate play sessions by biting on our ankles, letting us know he wants to play....I understand, play time comes on my terms, not his...I just don't know how to go about correcting it....I've tried getting his ball, replacing my ankle with something else, which works, then the whole process repeats...

He also slipped off the tug and got a brief ankle on the helper...She had scratch pants on and he didn't get a good grip....My fault also for not standing post...New handler error...

Should I correct this or get the advice of the helper before doing anything? I haven't told them about this...Wish It would clicked for me Sunday while at the club. ..They already told me all ball work from here on out at home...All bitework will be worked by them....He is catching and getting a full grip, but when she started tugging on it, his grip started slipping and ended up gripping it with his front teeth....I'm confident this has been caused by me(slipping grip), by me not making him fight for it...I basically let him win automatically....So probably handler error...I hope...I don't like the other issue it could be....Sorry I got off subject....Not the first time....haha


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Do you have him counter to a deeper grip before you reward him? It could be genetics....could be timing of the helper slipping the sleeve before he counters. 
I agree with the helper you should not be doing any bitework with him on your own(especially as a newb)
If he starts biting ankles, turn it into a training session(with a tug or ball)...if he's over the top for those, use food rewards only(remove the toy from his view) and wear out his brain with commands and maneuvers. 
And if he starts biting you, correct him with a NO and bring him back into obedience. I've seen pups that get oral on their handlers out of frustration, anxiety or plain spoiled "I want your attention on me, not them". I would not allow him to push you to play thru biting...he needs to channel his energy into a toy or by doing obedience(fun obedience!)
Do you track yet? If not, start now....


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> Do you have him counter to a deeper grip before you reward him? It could be genetics....could be timing of the helper slipping the sleeve before he counters.
> I agree with the helper you should not be doing any bitework with him on your own(especially as a newb)
> If he starts biting ankles, turn it into a training session(with a tug or ball)...if he's over the top for those, use food rewards only(remove the toy from his view) and wear out his brain with commands and maneuvers.
> And if he starts biting you, correct him with a NO and bring him back into obedience. I've seen pups that get oral on their handlers out of frustration, anxiety or plain spoiled "I want your attention on me, not them". I would not allow him to push you to play thru biting...he needs to channel his energy into a toy or by doing obedience(fun obedience!)
> Do you track yet? If not, start now....


The helper was letting him counter....The bitework I did on my own, I didn't challenge him much....I did before he started teething and he had a nice firm grip....I didn't do any intense tugging once he started teething....Just now resumed.... Only using balls and ball on rope now. (Club told me to do this Sunday). He is starting to come around for balls....We do a few short sessions of the 2 ball method, and a few short ball on string sessions....I have him the day off from obedience...I walked him to the elementary school to get our 4 year old. Around a group of people, he stays focused on me. I did take food rewards with me to the school. I usually do..

Hopefully it isn't genetic. He just needs to learn to hold on longer/firmer. 

Tracking, I'm going to start ASAP. 

Give me an example of one of your obedience sessions....I want to make sure I'm making it fun for him. I don't want him thinking "this again, I guess I'll go through the motions".....If you don't mind.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Agree with Jane. I would absolutely not be playing bitey rough house with a dog that already is mouthy and redirects his frustration that way. I would not let him use his teeth to ask to play. If he did that on me, he'd earn a stern verbal correction and get *zero* interaction. I wouldn't even redirect it, just let him know it's not appropriate and gets him nothing but being ignored or a time out in a crate/pen if you need to.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If he's having fun, he will be offering obedience behaviors rather than mouthing. For example when my puppy "pushes" me to do obedience he'll get in my way and offer some puppy push-ups (sit, down, stand....) or whatever command/trick we've been working on last. Sometimes he'll run and grab a toy we used for reward or he'll try to get my attention by going over to the shelf where I keep my training stuff, do a sit, and then look at me, look at the shelf, look at me, look at the shelf....THAT sort of behavior gets rewarded with lots of praise, toys and treats come out and we do some obedience. Whining/yapping at me or biting me gets him sent out in the yard for 20 minutes.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Liesje said:


> Agree with Jane. I would absolutely not be playing bitey rough house with a dog that already is mouthy and redirects his frustration that way. I would not let him use his teeth to ask to play. If he did that on me, he'd earn a stern verbal correction and get *zero* interaction. I wouldn't even redirect it, just let him know it's not appropriate and gets him nothing but being ignored or a time out in a crate/pen if you need to.


He does this with me and my wife...The kids, he was corrected from the start that they are off limits. He is the most gentle around our 1 1/2 year old. Our 4 year old, it is much better....We had to teach our son there was certain things he couldn't be doing.....Rarely any issues with the kids. He might try licking them....

He is almost 6.5 months old, and over the past 3-4 weeks, he has been "testing the waters".... Acting like a teenager going through puberty....Something like that...I will get serious about getting this corrected. He understands the word "nice"... If I feel he is putting too much bite pressure on me, I can say nice and he will lighten it up...But I agree....I need to channel this energy towards his ball or obedience. How do I do that again? Haha....j/k.....kind of... He has great food drive. So i can get great focus from that.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Liesje said:


> If he's having fun, he will be offering obedience behaviors rather than mouthing. For example when my puppy "pushes" me to do obedience he'll get in my way and offer some puppy push-ups (sit, down, stand....) or whatever command/trick we've been working on last. Sometimes he'll run and grab a toy we used for reward or he'll try to get my attention by going over to the shelf where I keep my training stuff, do a sit, and then look at me, look at the shelf, look at me, look at the shelf....THAT sort of behavior gets rewarded with lots of praise, toys and treats come out and we do some obedience. Whining/yapping at me or biting me gets him sent out in the yard for 20 minutes.


So far, no biting me during obedience sessions.....Only when working him in prey drive. Usually when the session ends, I out the ball, toys, etc up and he will still be amped up...This is where he goes for the ankles, etc....

So after doing prey work, and if he is still amped up after it ends, should I go right into doing some short obedience sessions to get the energy channeled towards the obedience instead of me?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I play rough and mouthy with both of mine. No bleed over into training for us. Kayta has been known to occasionally (once or twice a year) put her mouth on me out of malice when she's frustrated during training, but thats a different thing all together and that is dealt with quite sternly.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If he likes food, I would use food then. Personally I like to use food as long as it's working. I start using toys later on, not to lure the dog but as a "release" when I start using more pressure during obedience. Tugging and fetch become a release and the interactions are longer since I'm asking more of the dog in between. You want the dog to learn to cap his drive but keep his head. If he's getting mouthy he's probably a combination of frustrated being loaded in prey drive and not really understanding what he's supposed to be doing. I find food really helps shape behaviors and can be used with a marker word or clicker. It makes things smoother when you can dole out treats one after the other. Using toys right away is harder for me because the dog gets so amped up so quickly but doesn't really know the behaviors yet so can't always effectively cap that drive and have the focus you want. But, there's a million different ways to train a dog. Treats are just what I prefer to use until the dog is more like 7-8 months. My puppy is 5 months and is being trained with food. Right now the only toys I use for training are for flyball drills where he does a short retrieve of a tennis ball and "trades" on his way back for a tug, but all his obedience (positions, eye contact, tricks) are with food. I don't really do heeling with a pup this age, just training the positions (sit, down, stand), and eye contact in front and basic/heel position as well as some pivoting. Then I do some silly tricks for fun to keep them engaged.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

Liesje said:


> If he likes food, I would use food then. Personally I like to use food as long as it's working. I start using toys later on, not to lure the dog but as a "release" when I start using more pressure during obedience. Tugging and fetch become a release and the interactions are longer since I'm asking more of the dog in between. You want the dog to learn to cap his drive but keep his head. If he's getting mouthy he's probably a combination of frustrated being loaded in prey drive and not really understanding what he's supposed to be doing. I find food really helps shape behaviors and can be used with a marker word or clicker. It makes things smoother when you can dole out treats one after the other. Using toys right away is harder for me because the dog gets so amped up so quickly but doesn't really know the behaviors yet so can't always effectively cap that drive and have the focus you want. But, there's a million different ways to train a dog. Treats are just what I prefer to use until the dog is more like 7-8 months. My puppy is 5 months and is being trained with food. Right now the only toys I use for training are for flyball drills where he does a short retrieve of a tennis ball and "trades" on his way back for a tug, but all his obedience (positions, eye contact, tricks) are with food. I don't really do heeling with a pup this age, just training the positions (sit, down, stand), and eye contact in front and basic/heel position as well as some pivoting. Then I do some silly tricks for fun to keep them engaged.


As far as our obedience.....I use marker training with YES being the marker....The sit, platz(haven't put much into this yet) , heel, place, it has all come from food. Come very easily. But the eye contact/focus I squeeze in random sessions daily. Focus has made everything so much easier so far. I'm work I'm progress....The bitework foundation, I'm not even going to attempt...I will let the club work all of that....


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## G-burg (Nov 10, 2002)

Things that can be cute or funny in a young dog now, can become a real pain in the butt later down the road and harder to fix!


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jmoore728 said:


> As far as our obedience.....I use marker training with YES being the marker....The sit, platz(haven't put much into this yet) , heel, place, it has all come from food. Come very easily. But the eye contact/focus I squeeze in random sessions daily. Focus has made everything so much easier so far. I'm work I'm progress....The bitework foundation, I'm not even going to attempt...I will let the club work all of that....


Good plan, no rush. My puppy has never been to SchH club yet, probably won't go until this coming summer so he will be 8-10 months old by then and may not see any bitework yet. As soon as this dang snow melts (got another 3" last night), we'll start tracking and that will be my priority at this age.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

One thing to remember too, not all dogs are the same, what works for one may not work for another.
Do what is best for your dog....I found food rewards flattened my dogs enthusiasm(even when he was young)he was much better with a tug(not balls).
During the teething stage I had to switch to food, I noticed quite a difference in his enthusiasm and engagement. 
I think having a dog work for just the handler is best, but not many dogs will work happily and enthusiastically for praise and pets if they've already been introduced to tugging as a reward.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I really like this blog, she is spot on everytime she writes something and most days when I read her blog, it is perfect timing in what I'm working on with my dog. 

The Naughty Dogge Blog | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee

https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

He is at the stage where he is starting to be A LOT more demanding/rambunctious.... I def need to up my game. Everything was great when he was listening and doing what I was expecting...Not the case now. Still doing good, just a lot more ornery 

During training, if he is hungry, he is flashy...He is flat at times...Mostly when I lose track of time and end up doing a 15 minute obedience session. ...


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Around 6 months is when his ball drive can suddenly get bigger than his food drive. That's why you train pups with food but as they mature, you train with a ball. Having a pup with ball drive is the best thing ever. Dogs aren't always in the mood to eat but always in the mood to play.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

boomer11 said:


> Around 6 months is when his ball drive can suddenly get bigger than his food drive. That's why you train pups with food but as they mature, you train with a ball. Having a pup with ball drive is the best thing ever. Dogs aren't always in the mood to eat but always in the mood to play.


Or you can overload them in drive. I know for me and my dog I prefer his focus and level of intensity when working with food vs. a toy. A different trainer may be able to perfect the toy but I manage to unfocus my dog while using it. Using it as a reward, is fine, but trying to lure or shape I'm just not coordinated enough. It puts him in a more "react first, think later" state of mind. I personally don't like it. 

As for the roughhousing, I do it all the time with my dog but he never uses his mouth. Wasn't something I taught, but even as a puppy he would prefer toys to human body parts. He always had something in his mouth as a puppy so he never really had a chance to bite me.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

GSDluver4lyfe said:


> Or you can overload them in drive. I know for me and my dog I prefer his focus and level of intensity when working with food vs. a toy. A different trainer may be able to perfect the toy but I manage to unfocus my dog while using it. Using it as a reward, is fine, but trying to lure or shape I'm just not coordinated enough. It puts him in a more "react first, think later" state of mind. I personally don't like it.


This is how I train as well, and you're right it's just a difference in trainers. I train *everything* this way (agility, flyball, nosework...). I like to have technique, focus, and understanding (and sometimes safety) first and then I build the drive. I also do a lot of freeshaping things rather than luring and like the dog to grow to enjoy training and problem solving just for the sake of it and not only when there is a treat in his face or a tug in the armpit. Just a personal preference, it works well with how I train/handle and the type of dogs I tend to get. I like to think about the technique and break things down into lots of little steps.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

boomer11 said:


> Around 6 months is when his ball drive can suddenly get bigger than his food drive. That's why you train pups with food but as they mature, you train with a ball. Having a pup with ball drive is the best thing ever. Dogs aren't always in the mood to eat but always in the mood to play.


I don't know what works best yet...As in creating the most energy/focus/drive....Frustrating me...He isn't ball crazy enough yet...My former female GSD was very ball crazy. Bane not yet... Hopefully this improves...it would make things much easier.


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

Liesje said:


> This is how I train as well, and you're right it's just a difference in trainers. I train *everything* this way (agility, flyball, nosework...). I like to have technique, focus, and *understanding* (and sometimes safety) first and then I build the drive. I also do a lot of freeshaping things rather than luring and like the dog to grow to enjoy training and problem solving just for the sake of it and not only when there is a treat in his face or a tug in the armpit. Just a personal preference, it works well with how I train/handle and the type of dogs I tend to get. I like to think about the technique and break things down into lots of little steps.


Exactly! I feel that I can get a more accurate understanding from the dog with food, other trainers may get the opposite effect. My first dog never had over the top drive so I worked on building it more and more and more. So when I got my current dog, my mentality was drive, drive, DRIVE! He has a hard time capping his drive, and I'm sure I played a huge role in that. I stopped training for a long time, convinced he had environmental nerve issues, and started training again, this time with food (back to the basics, completely) and he's a completely different dog. So much easier to blame the dog , but no it was me all along! :crazy:


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I wouldn't 'blame the dog' or you! It is the difference in dog and the methods used in training. Some dogs do better with food, others with toys. I try to mix up my sessions with both, and usually carry a couple different toys on me during a training session. Some dogs can't handle too much stimulation, they need quiet praise and low value rewarding. Others need to be ramped up. It is all about the dog in front of you....
even during a session, changing things is necessary depending on what you are working on.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I really like this blog, she is spot on everytime she writes something and most days when I read her blog, it is perfect timing in what I'm working on with my dog.
> 
> The Naughty Dogge Blog | Naughty Dogge - Monique Anstee
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/monique.anstee



Thanks for the link....I've read through at least half of them. Good stuff....


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> I wouldn't 'blame the dog' or you! It is the difference in dog and the methods used in training. Some dogs do better with food, others with toys. I try to mix up my sessions with both, and usually carry a couple different toys on me during a training session. Some dogs can't handle too much stimulation, they need quiet praise and low value rewarding. Others need to be ramped up. It is all about the dog in front of you....
> even during a session, changing things is necessary depending on what you are working on.



I'm not blaming the dog at all...He has made me as a new handler look good. I knew this stage was coming, just not for sure how to properly deal with it. His energy is multiplying by the day, I'll up his mental and physical stimulation . One good thing. He doesn't chew up anything in the house...I'll keep posting videos of training sessions we do at home so I can have you guys and ladies review them,,,,Obedience I'm comfortable with....Bite work I'm afraid of failing and I don't want Bane to fail. I just need him to keep that full grip and hang on longer. Club will continue working him on the tugs and bite wedges. He is still a pup....I should know how his grip will be by 12-16 months.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

My response was to GSDluver4life, sorry, I should have quoted her post in my response.


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

*Great Thread*

This is a great thread, I have had experience with all three of my shepherds that have this kind of mouthing behavior... (Maybe not to the same extent, but...)
My first used to chase our son (then 14 years old) and herd him while she was young... He hated it and would discipline her when she nipped him in the butt. We laughed and she outgrew this habit. 
The second, a 5 y/o female that we have now is mouthy during play at home but never at training. She is a SCH wash out due to trainer conflict and operator error. She had a litter and was fixed and just doesn't want to work anymore.. So she is loved at home and is the current reigning queen. (Next to my wife.)
Her pup was mouthy at home with his litter mates and with me since birth and has been bite training for almost 1 year. He will be going for his bh some time this summer. He never bites me on the field unless it is by accident. ie: lunging for the ball on a rope and hits my fingers instead of all of the ball.
At home it is all different, he gets to play rough with me and often gently grabs my arm to take me some where,, out of bed so he can relieve himself, out of my chair to play with him or just to say hello often to instigate play.. These are usually gentle but when it gets out of hand and he treats me like when he is playing with his mother he gets corrected.

You mentioned that Bane is only 6 months old and like "puberty" right now.. realistically his puberty phase won't hit until he is 1.3 to 1.5 y/o.. He will be a very powerful dog with strong drives at that stage, his bite won't be so innocent then, really.. Best advice I can give now is to correct it before you are bitten in play and it really causes some damage.

When Chunk comes off the field after bite work he has always won a sleeve, ball prey etc. he is never empty mouthed at the end and he pridefully prances to his crate or car. If Bane doesn't get to win his prize and walk off the field engaged with his prize you should take the edge off his energy by making him chase the ball or some other method of release. Tugging IMHO seems to power up not expend that energy.

The down side to bitework is that you are completely liable for any tooth contact that causes a skin break, pressure bruise or fearful response. I know you said that he is gentle with others but when he really hits his mature stride you will not want him doing this to you or anybody else.. Especially now if this is Bane testing you.. Erring on the side of caution will allow you to have a great family, neighborhood dog (which all of our's are or have been) and your own personal play boundries at home. I've seen enough of my three dogs behaviors to trust the two current GSD's in a crowd of kids and strangers.
I have to run to work but will continue this on later in the day..

Phil


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## ChunksDad (Jan 6, 2014)

*Great Thread V2*

Work lasted less time than I thought it would so to finish my thoughts..
Chunk is about to be used as a guard dog in an environment under my control. We have had numerous break ins at my church and the county sheriff is at least 45 mins (or maybe more) away. A friend and I will be using him to clear out the building after the alarm goes off. We have begun to teach him how to clear out a room while on a long line. Each Sunday nite 30 mins or so before the evening service starts we take him from room to room. (There are other exercises in this process but for conversation's sake I'll omit them.)
When we are done, Chunk gets to play with the kids who come to the service with their parents. He is really gentle, waiting for them to give him or throw the ball. One little lady tells him to sit or lie down and he does it willingly all in the game. No mouthing, jumping or rough stuff and always obedient to my commands when need be. I'd call him a church mouse but if I needed to flip the proverbial switch to put him in protect mode the kids would have to be removed from the environment. 
IMHO it's possible to have a dog that mouths in play with owners but it needs to be off the field. Habits can leak off the work field if you let them..

Good Luck, I know Bane will turn out to be a great dog. He is certainly a good looking one..

Phil


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## GSDluver4lyfe (Nov 15, 2006)

onyx'girl said:


> I wouldn't 'blame the dog' or you! It is the difference in dog and the methods used in training. Some dogs do better with food, others with toys. I try to mix up my sessions with both, and usually carry a couple different toys on me during a training session. Some dogs can't handle too much stimulation, they need quiet praise and low value rewarding. Others need to be ramped up. It is all about the dog in front of you....
> even during a session, changing things is necessary depending on what you are working on.


Now, I completely agree! Sometimes you get so focused on what you are "supposed to do" like all the top notch trainers and wanting a dog trained just like that and not realize what works for the individual dog in front of you. Like I stated in a previous post, my initial reaction with Mace was to build his drive and let everything else fade to the background. But that level of drive needed to use a toy efficiently overloaded him. It puts him in a state that *I* don't like, someone else however may desire that effect.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> My response was to GSDluver4life, sorry, I should have quoted her post in my response.


I caught on after the fact...haha...Thanks for all the advice!


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

ChunksDad said:


> This is a great thread, I have had experience with all three of my shepherds that have this kind of mouthing behavior... (Maybe not to the same extent, but...)
> My first used to chase our son (then 14 years old) and herd him while she was young... He hated it and would discipline her when she nipped him in the butt. We laughed and she outgrew this habit.
> The second, a 5 y/o female that we have now is mouthy during play at home but never at training. She is a SCH wash out due to trainer conflict and operator error. She had a litter and was fixed and just doesn't want to work anymore.. So she is loved at home and is the current reigning queen. (Next to my wife.)
> Her pup was mouthy at home with his litter mates and with me since birth and has been bite training for almost 1 year. He will be going for his bh some time this summer. He never bites me on the field unless it is by accident. ie: lunging for the ball on a rope and hits my fingers instead of all of the ball.
> ...


One good thing so far, he doesn't ever mouth the boys. He did when we first brought him home, but we corrected this right off. I usually walk Bane to my 4 year olds school daily when picking Greyson up....We stand in line outside with all the parents waiting for the Pre-K class to come out. He handles all the kids great. But, I always keep a close eye on him... Monday, Bane was laying down while we were waiting. When the kids got released, one of Greyson's classmates came running up to Bane and kneeled down and started petting him. He did wonderful. Just layed there and let her pet him....It surprised me, because I wasn't expecting something like that to happen...After the fact, I was proud of him...Some of the parents will steer away when they are coming towards us....Some people see a GSD and think the worst. I've started taking him when he was around 12-16 weeks old....

I'm not for sure it he is testing me or just doing what I've allowed him to do (bad habit). He likes going after me and my wife's ankles at times. He rarely does it to me anymore. But never the boys. Ankle thing is getting better. I finally have the wife being more firm when he does this to her. I have her convinced that one good correction is better that 100 non effective corrections. We are atill fair to him. 

I will keep laying the foundation for obedience, but I'm not going to get real serious until he is around a year old or so. I'm going to scale it back a little. I'm going to focus on letting him be a puppy and give him the chance to make the right decisions on his own. I will get more formal once he gets a little older. I will still encourage house manners and good behavior though.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> I usually walk Bane to my 4 year olds school daily when picking Greyson up....We stand in line outside with all the parents waiting for the Pre-K class to come out. He handles all the kids great. But, I always keep a close eye on him... Monday, Bane was laying down while we were waiting. When the kids got released, one of Greyson's classmates came running up to Bane and kneeled down and started petting him. He did wonderful. Just layed there and let her pet him....It surprised me, because I wasn't expecting something like that to happen...After the fact, I was proud of him...Some of the parents will steer away when they are coming towards us....Some people see a GSD and think the worst. I've started taking him when he was around 12-16 weeks old....


You should plant a seed in Greyson's teachers ear about a little presentation on children and dogs/how to approach, etc. Rocketdog(username here) does this and I think it is so important for that age group to learn(and then they can take handouts home to the parents to sign after the parents have read it) PM Rocketdog and ask if she can share the program she uses.


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## Jmoore728 (Oct 17, 2013)

onyx'girl said:


> You should plant a seed in Greyson's teachers ear about a little presentation on children and dogs/how to approach, etc. Rocketdog(username here) does this and I think it is so important for that age group to learn(and then they can take handouts home to the parents to sign after the parents have read it) PM Rocketdog and ask if she can share the program she uses.


Sounds like a great idea. I will shoot her a PM. Thank you


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