# OMG - used e-collar for training for the 1st time



## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

today, and I am so excited! I worked on correcting Kodee's recall, and let me tell you, it worked!!! He was shadowing me (like Ed Frawley mentioned in his E-Collar DVD) by the end of the 1st short session, but when I called, he came 100% of the time, even under a couple of pretty good distractions. He was headed towards his Flying Squirrel laying on the ground, and when I called, he turned right around, and looked back over his shoulder longingly at his squirrel a couple of times, but he never broke stride heading towards me. THAT is huge! His flying Squirrel toy is a pretty good (moderate) distraction for him, as he lives to play w/that thing!

I just had to give my little "testimonial." I am so excited! I think this e-collar training is a priceless training tool, as is the collar, of course.


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## Brightelf (Sep 5, 2001)

What is this shadowing thing that Frawley discusses? I don't have the DVD.







Can you explain a lil?

And.. congratulations to you and Kodee on a super recall!!


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Yes, please explain shadowing as I do not own the dvd either.

I wonder if it is a technique we use at training class for the first lesson. We use a long line (15-30 foot). We then have the dog follow us via the long line or let the dog wonder off and then using the line and low level stim, and call the dog back. If the dog gets confused about what we want, we just "reel" it in using the long line to gently guide the dog back to us. Is that what he is doing with the "shadowing"?


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't have the DVD, but I guess Kodeegirl means what happens when you are teaching the recall (not only with the e-collar), there is a moment in wich the dog refuse to leave your side, as he doesn't see the point if are going to be calling him over and over. Then you just end the session and leave the lesson for the next one.


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: LicanAntaithere is a moment in wich the dog refuse to leave your side, as he doesn't see the point if are going to be calling him over and over.


Its not about the dog not seeing the point, but the dog does not understand the meaning of the stimulus. Dogs associate a negative stimulus initially by location and not always a certain behavior. Maybe in his mind is that "I don't feel that weird buzzing on my neck when I am next to my owner" It is anxiety and avoidance and fear of a painful stimulus that he is not clear about. Hopefully once it is clear and your dog can handle the stim, it will fade.

I like Lou Castle's approach better instead of Frawley's, however for a pet dog, no e-collar. Train smarter not harder.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

The shadowing is where they stay close to you/follow you when you first begin training the recall w/e-collar. After a while, he'll figure out that he doesn't have to stay next to me 100% of the time, (he'll realize that he only gets that little sting if I recall him and him and he ignores me). Once he gets that, he won't shadow anymore, for lack of a better explanation.

I did read about Lou Castle's met hod, but I don't agree with it. I don't feel like it's fair to my dog to stim him unless it's a _consequence _of his _ignoring _ a command I've already taught him. I am not _teaching _commands with the e-collar, I'm just using it to correct him for ignoring commands that he knows. He knows what "come" means, and if there's something he's interested in checking out, he ignores me rather than coming when called. The e-collar is to correct for that. 

Lou Castle stims a dog while giving a command (if I remember correctly), and I think this is totally unfair to the dog. Why stim him when he hasn't even had a chance to obey you yet? 

I think using an e-collar for a pet is fine, as long as it's used correctly. I use the lowest level stim that gets a little reaction from Kodee, and he only gets stimulated for direct disobedience. NOT if he doesn't understand what I'm asking him.

Anyway, I know the Ed Frawley vs. Lou Castle is a volatile topic (I did a lot of reading online before I began using the e-collar). I just wanted to post that the e-collar worked great during our first session.







I used to be totally against them, until I learned how to use them, now I am a believer. If used properly, I think they're awesome training tools.


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## diva82 (Feb 20, 2007)

What kind of e-collar did you get?


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

I bought a Dogtra 1900NCP. I love it. I took Kodee back out this evening to work a little more with it, and we worked on proofing his "sits" and "downs" under distraction. He did really well. We played frisbee off and on throughout the session. Also worked on recall some more (I don't think the recall can ever be proofed enough, IMO). Hardly have to use the stim button - if he doesn't comply w/a command, when I say "no" (verbal correction), he complies, before he gets a stim. Finally understands that "no" means "no." He had a great time, as he already is getting more freedom (he's still on a long line, but I'm letting him get a little more distance to run, as his recall is so much better already).

I only use the "nick" button, haven't used "constant", and don't plan to. I also tested it on myself - level 50 is getting uncomfortable to me, but Kodee is only getting level 27 when needed. 23 works in the house (no distractions).


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## Sarah'sSita (Oct 27, 2001)

Sounds like you are approaching the tool with a good foundation. Good Luck. I The part I always remind myself, whatever the "correction" is the least amount of stimulus required to produce the result. It is very clear to the dog and removes the emotional factor that travels down the leash. I have used it with good results thus far, mostly during protection training in SchH and cleaning up obedience. I have not used it for teaching phase like Lou Castle, but I agree with some aspects of his method.
GoodLuck with Kodee


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KodeeGirlThe shadowing is where they stay close to you/follow you when you first begin training the recall w/e-collar. After a while, he'll figure out that he doesn't have to stay next to me 100% of the time, (he'll realize that he only gets that little sting if I recall him and him and he ignores me). Once he gets that, he won't shadow anymore, for lack of a better explanation.
> 
> I did read about Lou Castle's met hod, but I don't agree with it. I don't feel like it's fair to my dog to stim him unless it's a _consequence _of his _ignoring _ a command I've already taught him. I am not _teaching _commands with the e-collar, I'm just using it to correct him for ignoring commands that he knows. He knows what "come" means, and if there's something he's interested in checking out, he ignores me rather than coming when called. The e-collar is to correct for that.
> 
> ...


If your using the e-collar as a method of punishment then your NOT using it correctly.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tracie
> If your using the e-collar as a method of punishment then your NOT using it correctly.


I disagree. There are different methods of using an e-collar in training, I just happen to believe that giving the dog a stimulation _while _I'm giving the command to him (a la Lou Castle's method) is totally unfair to the dog. If he disobeys a command that he _knows_, he gets a light stimulation as a consequence. Before I do even that, I tell him "no" as a verbal warning to obey. If he still ignores me, _then _he gets a stim (light - not a big shock). I've stimulated myself w/twice the level that I use on Kodee, so I know what it feels like.

Just b/c you disagree with the training method doesn't make it incorrect.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

This is what I accomplished with the E collar and the Leerburg vid. I'm a total amateur when it comes to training so you aren't going to see perfect sits or jumps 

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_qu...sort=&uploaded=


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

> Originally Posted By: KodeeGirl
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: Tracie
> ...


It has nothing to do with disagreeing with the training method. What your teaching your dog is that the only time he/she has to listen to you is when the collar is on. If you teach your dog via Lou's method (as well as most SEASONED e-collar trainers method), the dog learns to be voice conscious to your command through use of voice commands AND stim from the collar. After awhile, doing as asked the first time asked is second nature to the dog because he/she has learned to LISTEN to the voice commands and responds immediately. 

Being inconsistant is being unfair to the dog.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Very nice video's!


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Tracie
> It has nothing to do with disagreeing with the training method. What your teaching your dog is that the only time he/she has to listen to you is when the collar is on. If you teach your dog via Lou's method (as well as most SEASONED e-collar trainers method), the dog learns to be voice conscious to your command through use of voice commands AND stim from the collar. After awhile, doing as asked the first time asked is second nature to the dog because he/she has learned to LISTEN to the voice commands and responds immediately.
> 
> Being inconsistant is being unfair to the dog.


I still disagree with you, Tracie. I don't believe I'm being inconsistent, and how can you say I'm being unfair to my dog, but it's fine to stimulate the dog while giving him a command (before he even has a chance to respond to what you're saying?) That method sounds unfair to me, presonally. As far as teaching him to obey, the method I use has a period of time where you condition the dog to the collar, so he obeys whether he's wearing the collar or not. 

Also, there are "seasoned" e-collar users out there who use the same method I'm using (Ed Frawley's DVD on e-collar training is great, IMO). Have you studied Ed Frawley's method? B/c I have researched Lou Castle's, and I just don't agree with all of what he does, although I'm sure he gets results. Personally I prefer Frawley's method - it works, and I feel it's more fair to the dog, as well as less stressful. That my _opinion_. Which is what I base my choice on. 

Also, those "nice videos" that MaxGunnar posted (which I agree look great), were as he said, the result of using an e-collar and the Leerburg DVD.









Anyway, I'm going to have to agree to disagree w/you. The whole point of my original post was to tell people that I am having great success w/using the e-collar to proof/strengthen the training that I've already done w/my dog.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

Ok. We can agree to disagree. Why listen to 25 years of experience. Good luck to you and your dog.

When I made the statement about inconsistany, it was not directed "to" you. It was a general statment.


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## GunnerJones (Jul 30, 2005)

Tracie I can't PM you for some reason


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

I see I failed to answer your question about studying Ed Frawley...Yes, I studied Ed Frawley as well as Lou Castle, Robin McFarland, Fred Hassin...........and a few others.

I do mean it when I say I wish you much success with your dog. There is no greater experience than to have a well trained dog.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

My email is [email protected]


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: TracieWhy listen to 25 years of experience.


No need to get offended over it. Sheesh! Ed Frawley has more than 35 years of experience, and I'm choosing to listen to him. Don't take it as a personal affront. I'm having great results w/Kodee, which is all I was posting about in the first place. 

Good luck to you and YOUR dogs. 

Edit: Tracie - I see I was typing while you were posting your last response to me. I agree that a well-trained dog is amazing to have. I do think that if you watched the DVD Ed Frawley made, you might not see the method I'm using as "inconsistent". Just a thought.


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## Dohhhhh (May 1, 2006)

I took no offense to your posts. What I do take offense to (not saying that this is you either) is people using an e-collar THEIR way then laying blame on the collar because their dog gets messed up (look at some of the other threads about people using e-collars then blaming the collar because they did not follow directions) or because they refuse to listen to the voice of experience. 

Again, I did NOT say you were being inconsistent. I made a statement...a general statement that being inconsistent is being unfair to the dog.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

Okay I have to ask this question......

I had not intended to post on this because I am just not an e-collar fan. 

I have no idea how to use one so I am ignorant which is maybe why I am not a fan of them. 

Here is my dumb question - If you are using the collar as punishment as mentioned by a previous poster why do you feel the need to punish the dog?

Could you not train a positive recall? Just asking, not accusing.


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## kbigge (Dec 29, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: KathyWHere is my dumb question - If you are using the collar as punishment as mentioned by a previous poster why do you feel the need to punish the dog?
> 
> Could you not train a positive recall? Just asking, not accusing.


Hi, Kathy-

I don't think that's a dumb question at all. Personally, I cringed at the thought of both prong collars and e-collars, until I did more research and learned more about them. I used to think they were both barbaric. LOL! I now think the main problem with them is that people try to use them as short-cuts to training. They don't do any groundwork training, they just jump in and use e-collars or prongs or whatever indiscriminately, without knowing or caring about the correct method.

Kodee is _taught _the meaning of commands _by positive reinforcement only_, before I ever use an e-collar for a _correction_. I never "correct" him for making a mistake on a command he doesn't know. 

The method of training I'm using is taught by Ed Frawley at Leerburg. He believes there should be 3 stages to training: 1) Learning phase - this is where the dog is taught the meaning of commands via positive reinforcment only (food, toys, praise, etc). At this point, there is no "punishment" if the dog fails to comply. He/she is still learning the meaning of a command. 2) Proofing phase-practicing obedience under varying/increasing levels of distraction. Just b/c a dog will "come" when no one is around, doesn't mean he'll come when another dog is running past, for example. The dog has to learn to "come" when called, regardless of what's going on around him/her. 3) Correction phase - This is done after you know the dog understands 100% what you are telling him to do. When only positive reinforcment is used, dogs will only obey until the temptation (getting to chase a squirrel, for example) is greater than the positive reinforment (piece of hotdog or whatever). Personally, this has been true for every dog I've ever been around. I've NEVER seen a dog obey 100% when only positive reinforcement is used. I'm not a professional, mind you, but I've been around tons of dogs. My dog Kodee, for example, will come when called _most _of the time (and he absolutely knows what "come" means), but if he sees a cat he can chase, and I say "come", he's not going to come, and no amount of positive reinforcement in this world is more important to him than chasing that cat.







He needs to learn that direct disobedience is not acceptable. This is the stage that we "correct" (punish) disobedience. This can be done by verbal correction ("no"), pop on leash with flat collar, use of prong, e-collar, etc. You want to use the method that causes the least discomfort to the dog, but still "corrects" the dog.

You can use differerent methods of correction to get a response from the same dog, in different situations. Kodee will stop countersurfing if I give him a verbal "no", so I don't use an e-collar, obviously, to correct for that. But, he would drag me 100 yards to chase a cat (if I let him), and "no" isn't gonna cut it. I use the e-collar if he doesn't obey the "leave it" command when he sees that cat. 

Hope that I'm making this clear. If you have more questions, PM me and I can give you a couple of links.


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## Kayos and Havoc (Oct 17, 2002)

That's okay, I have read Mr. Frawley in fact have his e-books bookmarked.

I know all about the stages of training as I have been doing it for a few years myself. I just needed to know what phase you were in and it sounds as if you are in the correction phase. 

I do agree about the squirrels and cats! I have just never used an e-collar as I am a bit afraid of them I think.


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## Rafi's Dad (Jan 25, 2008)

I have been following your e collar experience and have purchased a dogtra 1900NCP also for my 18 mo Rafi GSD male. I have not used it yet and the primary reason I got it was to improve his recall -correct his recall-he just sometimes doesn't care while in our yard and I hate to think what he' d do outside in an open field.I tried it on my leg and at thirty it was uncomfortable, so on me I haven't tried it any higher. This brings me to a question. Does the distance from the transmitter have a great effect on the signal strength needed to stimulate? 
I do train with a trainer who has urged me not to use it without his guidance. We haven't started yet but his method does not sound like the Ed Frawley nicking only for disobedience. I am going to see him tonight and we'll see what happens. I wanted to see the Frawley DVD and he told me not to watch it?


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

> Quote:I do train with a trainer who has urged me not to use it without his guidance. We haven't started yet but his method does not sound like the Ed Frawley nicking only for disobedience. I am going to see him tonight and we'll see what happens


Have you read Lou Castle's site, or the Dobbs Obedience site? 

I use the e-collar (also waited and started with a trainer) but NOT as a punishment. It's a TRAINING AID. I never use it to punish AFTER they do something wrong. And this has worked best for my dogs.

http://www.loucastle.com/articles.htm

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/rffcome.html


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## KCandMace (Apr 8, 2008)

I am glad that the collar is working and Kodee is getting better too.


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## Rafi's Dad (Jan 25, 2008)

We had our first session today. Iwent with the trainrer and his assistant to an open field that he's never seen. It even had som e distractions (two soccar players).
I had a 30' lead andthere were there of us : myself, the trainer's assistant who was responsiblr for the end of the lead, and teh trainer who had the remote control in his had. 
I had the dog sit ahd walked away about 30-40 ft and called him. a
At first he walked around and didn't seem like responding immediately and sharply. He had me call himm "Hhere" over and over. At the same time he began to turn on/up the power and it was nticible as the dog looked arou8nd , sat down, seemed disurbed and confused. But he did not pick responding to the "here" as an option. Then he began to turn up the gain and it became evident that it was getting more and more uncomfortable,andI continued to tell "here". He started to run towards me and when he got to me the nicking which occurred each time I said here stopped.
I then had him lay down, and walked away about 150 feet and called here . He got up and was nicked until he started running straight to me. Lastly we repeated the previous excercise but without any electrical stimuli because he shot right tto me1
we quit after that.


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## Rafi's Dad (Jan 25, 2008)

sorry about my typos-I was very excitd to share my day!


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