# Looking for a "dont pet me" shirt. Bad experience!!



## gewaltiger Sturm

I am having trouble finding one and I NEED one!!!
So my little guy is 12 weeks today. For some of his social skills we take him with us all over the place and people want to just jump down and pet him. I dont want this. A lot of people ask and a nicely say "please dont he is in training" So the other day we go to Lowes. The cashier asked if she could pet him and I gave the standard answer. We start chatting with her and a couple other people come over and the cashier acualy told them not to pet him. Well this one employee stands in front of my puppy and begins this "sit, sit sit". The whole while Storm is looking at him like "What in the **** are you saying" because thats not the way he has been trained. So, before I know it, this %$%& proceeds to lean down and start pushing Storms rear end down saying "sit"! This is where I was almost asked to leave. I said I didnt say he needed a trainer I said he is in training I dont need a trainer, I need a 2x4 and walked away. I was POed to say the least. What gal? To pet is one thing but who are you to force MY dog into doing something? Im still fuming about that!!!


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## Warrior09

Idk what i would have done, I can be a big big big butthole when situations push me too far.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Why are you worried about people petting your 12 week old puppy? :thinking:


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## sashadog

I would have to second Cassidy's mom on this one... While this lady may have pushed a little too far with her attempt at training (and I would be upset also), maybe give people a little bit of a break. Not very many people can resist a fluffy 12 week old puppy. Plus wouldn't you want him to learn to love people? 

If you're still desperate for a training vest there are several threads in the equipment forum on here about where you can find one. We got Sasha's off one of the websites recommended and you can choose your own patches. You just can't put anything about a working dog, service dog, or SAR/K-9 officer. I believe it was activedogs or something like that...


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## gewaltiger Sturm

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Why are you worried about people petting your 12 week old puppy? :thinking:


For now, I want his full attention. I dont want him looking to strangers for enjoyment yet. Its part of his training. For right now, I am the center of his universe. I dont want him thinking everyone in the world wants to pet him. Dont get me wrong. He gets his petting times but only when I allow it. Once his training is further along I will let up on the fact I dont want every joe tom and harry petting him. Kids on the other hand get to pet him but only after I ask them if they want to pet him and then he only gets his petting when he is calm and sitting beside me.

I guess I should have mentioned I am a police officer and this will soon be my partner.


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## Cassidy's Mom

Well, then maybe you shouldn't be taking him into stores where people are likely to want to pet him.


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## gewaltiger Sturm

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Well, then maybe you shouldn't be taking him into stores where people are likely to want to pet him.


Or maybe I can find a vest that asks people not to pet him.


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## sashadog

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> Or maybe I can find a vest that asks people not to pet him.


It might be worth a try but IME, people will still try and pet him and it's unlikely that they're going to believe that he's in training just because he's wearing a vest that says so. We have a hard enough time getting people to not approach our 4 year old, fear reactive female when we're out on leashed walks in our neighborhood and she's not even cute and fluffy! 

Maybe it is better at this point to just not take him places where you don't want people to pet him... Save yourself a little stress?


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## Cassidy's Mom

The strange thing is, I've never had any trouble with people petting my dogs if I didn't want them to, and my dogs don't need to wear a vest saying "don't pet me" in order for that to happen. If people ask to pet my dogs and I don't want them to, I just say no. Nobody can try to force you puppy to do anything if you don't let them get close enough.


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## shepherdmom

sashadog said:


> It might be worth a try but IME, people will still try and pet him and it's unlikely that they're going to believe that he's in training just because he's wearing a vest that says so. We have a hard enough time getting people to not approach our 4 year old, fear reactive female when we're out on leashed walks in our neighborhood and she's not even cute and fluffy!
> 
> Maybe it is better at this point to just not take him places where you don't want people to pet him... Save yourself a little stress?


I believe the op just said he is a police officer and the puppy is in training. He has to be able to take him places and get him used to it. 

What about something like this?Dog In Training Vest - The Pawsitive Dog


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## gewaltiger Sturm

sashadog said:


> It might be worth a try but IME, people will still try and pet him and it's unlikely that they're going to believe that he's in training just because he's wearing a vest that says so. We have a hard enough time getting people to not approach our 4 year old, fear reactive female when we're out on leashed walks in our neighborhood and she's not even cute and fluffy!
> 
> Maybe it is better at this point to just not take him places where you don't want people to pet him... Save yourself a little stress?


He is cute and fluffy  I know its going to be a headache but he needs to be around people for the type of training he is getting ready to go through.



Cassidy's Mom said:


> The strange thing is, I've never had any trouble with people petting my dogs if I didn't want them to, and my dogs don't need to wear a vest saying "don't pet me" in order for that to happen. If people ask to pet my dogs and I don't want them to, I just say no. Nobody can try to force you puppy to do anything if you don't let them get close enough.


I live in a small southern town. People are VERY friendly. Its not the people that ask I have a problem with. Its the people who just do it! Maybe a vest that says "please ask before you pet me"


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## gewaltiger Sturm

shepherdmom said:


> I believe the op just said he is a police officer and the puppy is in training. He has to be able to take him places and get him used to it.
> 
> What about something like this?Dog In Training Vest - The Pawsitive
> Dog


Thank You!!!


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## sashadog

shepherdmom said:


> I believe the op just said he is a police officer and the puppy is in training. He has to be able to take him places and get him used to it.
> 
> What about something like this?Dog In Training Vest - The Pawsitive Dog


Gotcha, I must have missed that. Also, if you google working dog vest, quite a few options come up. If he is your future k-9 partner, you may have a few more options as far as patches and words on the vest goes?


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## Syaoransbear

Here's another! 
NOTICE: DO NOT PET!!! PET T SHIRT at Zazzle.ca

I think you'll have a tough time stopping people from petting such a cutey though :wub:.


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## shepherdmom

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> Thank You!!!


Thank you for helping to protect and keep us safe. 

Good luck to you and your little guy!


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## KZoppa

Wow guys really? I can understand where the OP is coming from. He has a goal for HIS dog in order for the dog to be able to do the job he's looking at in the future. In that line of work he really doesnt need a puppy who thinks EVERYONE is there to give him attention. He obviously wants the socialization done but that doesnt mean every tom, jane, and mandy needs to be petting the puppy. Socialization is about the puppy being okay in various environments and being able to observe people and how they move and react. If he wants his puppy to interact with everyone thats fine but not everyone wants the dog who is anxiously watching to see who is going to come pet them next. The dog simply has to be tolerant of those around him. He allows kids to socialize with the puppy and thats fabulous. Why does he have to allow every one who askes to pet the puppy? How many times have we seen threads about people being frustrated that they cant seem to go anywhere without someone pestering them to pet their dog even after being told no? You socialize your dog on terms. Telling people no, my dog is in training is completely optional. He isn't denying everyone who askes so its not the end of the world. As long as the puppy is getting out there instead of left at home and then expected to just handle different places and situations, it shouldnt matter how he handles how he socializes HIS puppy. He came on to post about how he'd already told someone no the puppy was in training and then someone else comes over and ignores what they're told and starts in basically using force on a puppy that not only doesnt belong to them, but they dont even know to begin with. I can understand the frustration.


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## blehmannwa

I would have a huge problem with a stranger forcing a "sit" on my puppy. I don't train like that and I don't want anyone beside myself to pressure my dog. Petting is one thing..but training is another--it's lile a passenger grabbing the steering wheel.


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## ILGHAUS

At twelve weeks old I would be more concerned with contact (floors mostly) because of possible exposure to canine disease other then being the center of my dog's attention. I keep my young pups away from pet stores altogether and carry them in the vet's lobby for that reason. I also limit who touches my guys to those that I know.

As my dog's get some age on them and their immunity improves then I begin taking them out into the community more. I still always monitor who has direct contact with my dogs and how they act around them. 

In my experience a shirt or scarf etc. is only going to bring more people over to your dog. Also, many people are going to be drawn to a 3mth old pup but that will begin to go down as the pup ages. By the time he reaches 6 months old it is surprising the number of those same people who will not try to touch a GSD. 

Don't forget that your pup as he ages will very likely begin to seek less attention from others just because that is the nature of the breed. So a 12 week old pup who expects everyone to love him may not grow into a 12 month old young adult who even cares if outsiders acknowledge his existence. 

I currently have a 11 year old GSD who enjoys limited attention from many strangers and a soon to be 10 year old GSD who would care less if everyone besides family members fell off the face of the earth.


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## doggiedad

why can't people pet your pup? what does beingin training have to do with being petted? people liketo pet dogs. teach your dog how to react when beingtouched. if you don't want people touching your dogkindly say "please don't pet him he's in training" or "pleasedon't pet him he's (and state your reason).


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## robk

It has been my experience that unwanted affection from strangers starts to go away as the dog gets bigger. It goes from "oh look at the cute puppy!" to "oh god what is that thing doing in here!?" in just a few months.


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## gypsyrose

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> I am having trouble finding one and I NEED one!!!
> So my little guy is 12 weeks today. For some of his social skills we take him with us all over the place and people want to just jump down and pet him. I dont want this. A lot of people ask and a nicely say "please dont he is in training" So the other day we go to Lowes. The cashier asked if she could pet him and I gave the standard answer. We start chatting with her and a couple other people come over and the cashier acualy told them not to pet him. Well this one employee stands in front of my puppy and begins this "sit, sit sit". The whole while Storm is looking at him like "What in the **** are you saying" because thats not the way he has been trained. So, before I know it, this %$%& proceeds to lean down and start pushing Storms rear end down saying "sit"! This is where I was almost asked to leave. I said I didnt say he needed a trainer I said he is in training I dont need a trainer, I need a 2x4 and walked away. I was POed to say the least. What gal? To pet is one thing but who are you to force MY dog into doing something? Im still fuming about that!!!


 I did'nt know lowes let pets in their store. @12 weeks old the pup needs to be around obnoctious people but dont let it get over loaded. when Gypsy was at that age she bit every one who reached for her i warned people but that dident stop most of them. i took her every where with me and she drew blood from my decorators the guy at the gas station and one cop in the windixe parking lot. If it wasent her teeth it was those niddle sharp toe nails. now she is two and every one is scared of her no one wants to pet her. oh that watch me thing you want, you have to teach that, it wont just happen over night. the one most important thing i learned from Gypsy is that training is happning like it or not its what you train that is important. people all ways complain about their pups being land sharks you have to train that away to i found teaching Gypsy to bite and to bark and to jump up all on command was the first step to teaching no bite and down and no noise. if you want your dog not to do somthing teach it to do it on command and then teach it not to do it on command. if you have a trainer that says dont play tug find another trainer. play tug so you can teach leave it one trainer asked me what i would do if Gypsy got my wifes sock. when it happens and it still does occasionaly i stand, snap my fingers and point at her chair she drops what she has and gets in the chair or i take hold of the sock with out pulling and calmly say leave it. If you havent started clicker or marker training now is the time. I cant wait for anouther puppy but i'm waiting until Gypsy is three. about nine months to go. so lowes let dogs in their store imagin that. :wub:


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## gypsyrose

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> For now, I want his full attention. I dont want him looking to strangers for enjoyment yet. Its part of his training. For right now, I am the center of his universe. I dont want him thinking everyone in the world wants to pet him. Dont get me wrong. He gets his petting times but only when I allow it. Once his training is further along I will let up on the fact I dont want every joe tom and harry petting him. Kids on the other hand get to pet him but only after I ask them if they want to pet him and then he only gets his petting when he is calm and sitting beside me.
> 
> I guess I should have mentioned I am a police officer and this will soon be my partner.


** Comment removed by Admin. Rude, personal attack**


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## wyominggrandma

Sounds to me like you are a "I am in total control at all times" kinda guy. You are controlling a 12 week old puppy like he is a mature dog in training, not a baby just learning about the world.. How sad for the puppy, I imagine his life is total control control control.Does he ever get to be normal, or do you control his every movement?

Never heard of police dog traing like this,sounds more like your authority training.

Since his every moment is under your control, hope you never get sick or hospitalized, the poor puppy will not be able to do anything since you are not there to control him.


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## Jax08

A girl came to my house with my niece who thought she'd make Banshee sit. Banshee - the one that doesn't like strangers. I told her to stop once and she didn't get it so I turned to her and said "Are you TRYING to get bit?"

And a guy at the stable...if I walked away from Jax for a minute he would run right over and start telling her Sit - Down. I finally said to him...she is not your dog. She is not going to listen to you. She isn't supposed to listen to you.

I feel your pain...why do ppl think they need to train someone else's dog.


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## Cassidy's Mom

KZoppa said:


> Wow guys really? I can understand where the OP is coming from. He has a goal for HIS dog in order for the dog to be able to do the job he's looking at in the future.


He didn't mention that in his first post.


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## mtmarabianz

I had a No pet policy while raising my pup; Just Say NO!! 
Who Cares What People Think, They Don't Get IT!!
My Dog, My Rules!!

When she was a little older, I'd just say she was in training.

But I sure like the way she turned out from this training
her focus is on ME, & she ignores other people/dogs
I did NOT want a 90# GSD that ran up to other people to be pet
or looked to dogs as fun time
JMO
& This Is The ONLY Way To Raise A True Working Dog


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## Courtney

I didn't read all the posts but I understand your frustration.

I did not want my puppy to treated like he was on display at a petting zoo. You just have to get comfortable with saying "no, you cannot pet my puppy right now, but thank you for asking" or if they are approaching without asking you...step in front of your puppy and say "no".

I certainly do not expect my puppy to do "tricks" for the general public.

Of course you can put a no petting vest on but I would just get comfortable telling them.

Good Luck!


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## mtmarabianz

Courtney said:


> I didn't read all the posts but I understand your frustration.
> 
> I did not want my puppy to treated like he was on display at a petting zoo. You just have to get comfortable with saying "no, you cannot pet my puppy right now, but thank you for asking" or if they are approaching without asking you...step in front of your puppy and say "no".
> 
> I certainly do not expect my puppy to do "tricks" for the general public.
> 
> Of course you can put a no petting vest on but I would just get comfortable telling them.
> 
> Good Luck!


Agree!!

Leerburg sells collars & vests for dogs "Do Not Pet, In Training"
as Leerburg socialization is not regarding people/other dogs
but new places & things!!

But as stated above "I would just get comfortable saying NO"


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## mycobraracr

I am on the same page. Other than kids I don't like people petting my dog either. I got her a vest from www.allk-9.com . It was a little big at first but fits great now (she just tirned 5 months). I was/am getting people who want to pet and even "train" her. Just know that the vest helps but is not 100%. I still get the idiots that try. Her is a picture of my vest. It was the cheap one just to get me by for now. It is listed as the patrol dog harness. It adjust pretty small. I hope this helps.


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## Gwenhwyfair

I understand where the OP is coming from....

Sometimes people would come up from behind us or suddenly bend down to pet without asking.

I found having a vest on Ilda to be VERY helpful. It slowed people down long enough that I could manage interactions in public more successfully. It also made people be much more understanding when she was going through some fear stages.

I got this one, you can select 2 patches to be sewn on and it has a couple of little pockets too.

Since Ilda was NOT training for a service dog I selected the patches "in training" and "please ask to pet me". Tho.... I don't think people really looked at the patches but a vest like this, in of itself, sends a message.

I recommend selecting either the royal blue or the red color vest as these two colors look more professional.

Working Service Dog - Butterfly Dual Pocket Vest


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## PaddyD

If your dog is allowed in certain stores I agree with taking the pup there to get used to different situations. You can use it to train him to be calm and obedient with distractions. He is your dog and if you don't want people to pet him it is your right. The employee overstepped and you should complain to the management. Once again, he is YOUR dog not public property. It doesn't look to me like you have control issues, it just looks like you were trying to accomplish something and the employee thought he(himself) was something special.


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## wyominggrandma

mtmarabianz said:


> I had a No pet policy while raising my pup; Just Say NO!!
> Who Cares What People Think, They Don't Get IT!!
> My Dog, My Rules!!
> 
> When she was a little older, I'd just say she was in training.
> 
> But I sure like the way she turned out from this training
> her focus is on ME, & she ignores other people/dogs
> I did NOT want a 90# GSD that ran up to other people to be pet
> or looked to dogs as fun time
> JMO
> & This Is The ONLY Way To Raise A True Working Dog


I don't know,if this is the ONLY way to raise a true working dog. I allowed my puppy to be petted and handled as a puppy as much as possible. 
She looks to me and pay attention to me, ignores other dogs and people and obeys me when I ask her to. However, she has no issues with people petting her or even doing tricks if they ask me first. I expect my dog to mind me, not to bite, lunge and be able to be handled by the vet,or others if necessary, etc without exception. However, I also expect her to be able to live without being under my strict control and be a dog. Sometimes, and I have seen it time and time again, that the person who wants total dominate control over their dog at all times, is afraid to let the dog even think for itself because they want it to be ALL theirs with no room for anyone else in their lives.


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## GermanShepherds6800

When you take your dog into public, you will find the worst of people interested in them.


My friend uses a service dog 24/7 and recently I was shopping with her. Her dog's vest is clearly marked do not pet. He is a friendly animal but most folks know you don't pet service dogs. Unfortunately it does not stop morons. Other week she was in town and we got together and this woman grabs her dog after saying: " It says don't pet but it's really ok cause I have six dogs at home!"


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## wyominggrandma

mtmarabianz said:


> @wyominggrandma,
> 
> I Think the Ultimate Control Is The Dogs You've Put Down Cuz You Couldn't Control Them!


How dare you mtmarabianz, who gives you the right to say what I can and can't do.
Um, I have put down a dog that have attacked people, including my granddaughter and myself because he had medical issues, the 6 month old puppy with brain tumor is one example. Can you fix that all up mtmarabianz? You seem to know everything.
You have NO RIGHT to say I can't control dogs, YOU don't even know me.
Do I believe in biting dogs? No, I don't. If YOU or anyone else wants to own a biting dog, go for it. I could care less. 
I am so glad there are so many PERFECT people like you on this board...Oh, and I don't believe in ULTIMATE CONTROL if you would read my posts.


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## wildo

mtmarabianz said:


> @wyominggrandma,
> 
> I Think the Ultimate Control Is The Dogs You've Put Down Cuz You Couldn't Control Them!


Wow- that has to be one of the most rude comments I've seen lately. Totally uncalled for. And no, you're idea of how to raise a working dog is far from the only way.


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## Gwenhwyfair

...something we discussed in a thread about the dog biting the reporter. 

People mean well mostly, but I think there's some 'need' in the pysche where people feel like they must be accepted by dogs, _man's best friend_. I'd almost venture to say the need in some people seems to be so strong as though they are seeking some affirmation of being 'loveable'.

I noticed when Ilda is being aloof people respond by feeling very hurt (but all dogs love me)....they take it very personally.

ahhhh...just something I ponder from time to time. :wild:



Jax08 said:


> A girl came to my house with my niece who thought she'd make Banshee sit. Banshee - the one that doesn't like strangers. I told her to stop once and she didn't get it so I turned to her and said "Are you TRYING to get bit?"
> 
> And a guy at the stable...if I walked away from Jax for a minute he would run right over and start telling her Sit - Down. I finally said to him...she is not your dog. She is not going to listen to you. She isn't supposed to listen to you.
> 
> I feel your pain...why do ppl think they need to train someone else's dog.


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## wyominggrandma

thank you Wildo, I thought the same thing. Actually her attack was totally uncalled for. 
And if the rude person who posted that to me had read my posts, they had to do with NOT having total control..


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## Jax08

Here's a reading comprehension puzzle....

pick the main point out of this story...



gewaltiger Sturm said:


> I am having trouble finding one and I NEED one!!!
> So my little guy is 12 weeks today. For some of his social skills we take him with us all over the place and people want to just jump down and pet him. I dont want this. A lot of people ask and a nicely say "please dont he is in training" So the other day we go to Lowes. The cashier asked if she could pet him and I gave the standard answer. We start chatting with her and a couple other people come over and the cashier acualy told them not to pet him. Well this one employee stands in front of my puppy and begins this "sit, sit sit". The whole while Storm is looking at him like "What in the **** are you saying" because thats not the way he has been trained. So, before I know it, this %$%& proceeds to lean down and start pushing Storms rear end down saying "sit"! This is where I was almost asked to leave. I said I didnt say he needed a trainer I said he is in training I dont need a trainer, I need a 2x4 and walked away. I was POed to say the least. What gal? To pet is one thing but who are you to force MY dog into doing something? Im still fuming about that!!!


A. People can't pet my dog
B. I'm a control freak police officer who is an authority on everything
C. I don't want complete strangers trying to train my dog
D. All of the above

Funny how people focus on completely different aspects of a post.


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## Holmeshx2

mtmarabianz said:


> @wyominggrandma,
> 
> I Think the Ultimate Control Is The Dogs You've Put Down Cuz You Couldn't Control Them!


COMPLETELY UNCALLED FOR!!! There have been a number of things I have disagreed with WyomingGrandma on and even caused a big fight on another thread but this type of personal attack was beyond inappropriate and definitely NOT allowed or condoned on this board.

Show us your accomplishments and maybe we will listen to you MR. this is the ONLY way to raise a true working dog. Exactly what working accomplishments do you have? Even the best world renowned trainers have multiple tools i their belts because not all dogs are the same so you always have to tailor yourself to the dog so they can learn. I have not been so appalled in a long time.

As far as the OP goes:

You are going to get a million people trying to pet your pup which really isn't a bad thing however, for what you are looking for I can understand you limiting it. The vest may help some however from what I've seen is some people simply don't care and feel entitled to whatever they want.


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## gypsyrose

Cassidy's Mom said:


> He didn't mention that in his first post.


 The chances are this dog will wash out more do than dont the best dogs from the best breaders are taken by law enforcement and search and rescue. i havent heard of a police officer buying a puppy and training it him self, here the county or city buys the dog and sends someone to train with it but in the end the dog is owned by what ever department its bought for. a cop lost his k9 spot with the city here and bought his dog and moved to the county he isent allowed to work with his dog but he is trying out for county k9. this is my problem with the first post. the problem i have with law inforcment dogs is thay have to be perfect one hundred percent of the time but people can make mistakes.


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## Mrs.K

gypsyrose said:


> The chances are this dog will wash out more do than dont the best dogs from the best breaders are taken by law enforcement and search and rescue. i havent heard of a police officer buying a puppy and training it him self, here the county or city buys the dog and sends someone to train with it but in the end the dog is owned by what ever department its bought for. a cop lost his k9 spot with the city here and bought his dog and moved to the county he isent allowed to work with his dog but he is trying out for county k9. this is my problem with the first post. the problem i have with law inforcment dogs is thay have to be perfect one hundred percent of the time but people can make mistakes.


Wait a second. The puppy in question is his own personal dog, unless I got it wrong! 

He's got his own dog and was approved for a K9.

edit: okay... found the post where he says it's going to be his partner... kind of weird approach...


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## sashadog

Mrs.K said:


> Wait a second. The puppy in question is his own personal dog, unless I got it wrong!
> 
> He's got his own dog and was approved for a K9.
> 
> edit: okay... found the post where he says it's going to be his partner... kind of weird approach...


yeah I was curious about that too... I've known multiple k-9 officers and their partners and not a single one of them was raised from puppyhood by their human partner. Maybe just the departments are different?? I'm by no means an expert on the subject just sounds like not the most efficient method for adding police dogs to their department...


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## martemchik

I know in Milwaukee an officer can raise his own/train his own and then get it tested to be a K9. It saves the department a huge expense and if it works out it works out, if not then who cares? They didn't spend any money. Most of these dogs become drug sniffing dogs though since the actual attack part of it could raise quite the liability for the department if something ever does go wrong...but I have met an officer who was training a dog in SchH and then PP in order to get her licensed at the department (probably the worst trained SchH dog I've ever seen, but none the less the training was happening).

I think each department has their own way of doing things, and will always have dogs that they train, but I see no problem with an officer taking a dog and training it on his own time...it would take much longer but it can happen. Considering a police dog at the department will get training 40 hours a week if not more, this is not the most efficient way to go about things, but the department doesn't lose anything in the end anyways.


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## LoveEcho

gypsyrose said:


> you better get your act together now if you want this dog to be your partner you have a long way to go i hope you know its takes nearl two years of training to get a dog ready for the training required to go on patrol. You cops and your dogs worry me. try and remember your badge gives you authority it in no way makes you an authority.


That's a heck of a thing to say to someone you don't even know... I'm baffled by this.


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## damaya

gypsyrose and mtmarabianz are fast learners


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## mtmarabianz

damaya said:


> gypsyrose and mtmarabianz are fast learners


Don't put ME in the same boat as you pet owner's, damaya & gypsyrose!!
I'm not on HERE asking for advice!


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## codmaster

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> For now, I want his full attention. I dont want him looking to strangers for enjoyment yet. Its part of his training. For right now, I am the center of his universe. I dont want him thinking everyone in the world wants to pet him. Dont get me wrong. He gets his petting times but only when I allow it. Once his training is further along I will let up on the fact I dont want every joe tom and harry petting him. Kids on the other hand get to pet him but only after I ask them if they want to pet him and then he only gets his petting when he is calm and sitting beside me.
> 
> I guess I should have mentioned I am a police officer and this will soon be my partner.


 
So lets see, if I understood you - you don't want anybody to try to pet your baby puppy! Because you think thast that will cause you not to be the center of his universe (or something like that). HHHMMM! guess that having some one else pet one's puppy really could throw a monkey wrench in all that bonding!

And that a 12 or so week old puppy will "soon be your partner" - how soon would that be?

And we certainly wouldn't want a potential K9 dog to be too friendly with all of those potential "Perps". Heh! Heh!


----------



## GregK

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> Other week she was in town and we got together and this woman grabs her dog after saying: " It says don't pet but it's really ok cause I have six dogs at home!"


 
:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:

You're right - morons!!


----------



## codmaster

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> Or maybe I can find a vest that asks people not to pet him.


 
How about a custom vest that just says "NO PETTING"?


----------



## codmaster

I have never had a problem with people trying to pet any of my puppies. Maybe they didn't trust me even if they did the puppy.

OTOH, I don't think I ever refused too many folks if they wanted to pet them either (maybe just a few weirdo's).

Usually a good thing for little puppies to learn that strangers are generally good guys, esp. when they are just babies as most of them tend to get more suspicious as they mature anyway.


----------



## wyominggrandma

I have been reading the rest of this thread with interest. Lots of different comments from all sides.
However, I am still appauled that mtmarabianz seemed to think it was okay to post that very very rude comment made to me and other than two people saying it was also rude, she has been allowed to make that comment and go on as if it was not made. I am a big girl, tough and don't get my feelings hurt and can argue with the best ofthem, but I was totally overwhelmed that a comment like she made specifially to me was allowed.
I thought that the kind of nasty rude comments were not to be allowed on this forum.. I am not sure if I will continue to be on this list. I am not talking about feelings be hurt or being tough because this is a public forum, but to be allowed to make that comment for no reason other than to be rude and nasty.


----------



## codmaster

Sometimes rudeness appears here. Best to consider the source and then move on.


----------



## DJEtzel

mtmarabianz said:


> Don't put ME in the same boat as you pet owner's, damaya & gypsyrose!!
> I'm not on HERE asking for advice!


So you don't have dogs as pets? 

What are you here for if you're not asking advice? You're patronizing and don't have any good information for anyone... so what's the point of you being here?


----------



## Alexandria610

wyominggrandma said:


> I have been reading the rest of this thread with interest. Lots of different comments from all sides.
> However, I am still appauled that mtmarabianz seemed to think it was okay to post that very very rude comment made to me and other than two people saying it was also rude, she has been allowed to make that comment and go on as if it was not made. I am a big girl, tough and don't get my feelings hurt and can argue with the best ofthem, but I was totally overwhelmed that a comment like she made specifially to me was allowed.
> I thought that the kind of nasty rude comments were not to be allowed on this forum.. I am not sure if I will continue to be on this list. I am not talking about feelings be hurt or being tough because this is a public forum, but to be allowed to make that comment for no reason other than to be rude and nasty.


FWIW, I reported the post earlier. I don't think anybody should be posting such personal and snide remarks to anybody, regardless of their feelings towards that person. I would have said something, as well, but joining in would probably have just provoked them more.

Hopefully the reported post from me will be removed, and the person spoken to. I find it shameful that someone feels the need to be so callous towards others in any way, shape, or format, especially when it is not warranted. I'm sorry that someone said such hurtful things - it most definitely should NOT be allowed, and I have a feeling it will be removed shortly.


----------



## DJEtzel

wyominggrandma said:


> I have been reading the rest of this thread with interest. Lots of different comments from all sides.
> However, I am still appauled that mtmarabianz seemed to think it was okay to post that very very rude comment made to me and other than two people saying it was also rude, she has been allowed to make that comment and go on as if it was not made. I am a big girl, tough and don't get my feelings hurt and can argue with the best ofthem, but I was totally overwhelmed that a comment like she made specifially to me was allowed.
> I thought that the kind of nasty rude comments were not to be allowed on this forum.. I am not sure if I will continue to be on this list. I am not talking about feelings be hurt or being tough because this is a public forum, but to be allowed to make that comment for no reason other than to be rude and nasty.


I'm hoping that mods have just not had time to address it yet. I know it was reported more than once, so hopefully something is done.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

A good way to get a suspension is with some of the comments I've seen here, unfortunately I am not a mod of this forum.

With that









Masi is also modeling this on the Leerburg site
Leerburg | Mesh K9 Vest


----------



## martemchik

After what I've seen this past week...I don't know what it would take to get banned/kicked off. But I guess its useless to do that anyways since anyone can just start another username using a different email.

I would like an answer as to why the guy thinks his dog shouldn't be pet that hardcore. I'm all for not letting every creeper on the street pet your dog, but if you're brining it into Lowes and then getting pissed when people want to pet your 3 month old puppy you should take a look at the situation. Everybody always screams socialization on this site and yet this is completely opposite of that. By the time the dog has "look at me" down it might be too late to socialize and then you're going to have a dog that snaps at everyone that walks by.


----------



## jb_pwrstroke

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> For now, I want his full attention. I dont want him looking to strangers for enjoyment yet. Its part of his training. For right now, I am the center of his universe. I dont want him thinking everyone in the world wants to pet him. Dont get me wrong. He gets his petting times but only when I allow it. Once his training is further along I will let up on the fact I dont want every joe tom and harry petting him. Kids on the other hand get to pet him but only after I ask them if they want to pet him and then he only gets his petting when he is calm and sitting beside me.
> 
> I guess I should have mentioned I am a police officer and this will soon be my partner.


I agree with this 110% I plan on doin the same thing with my pup.


----------



## martemchik

The most likely outcome of raising a dog that way is a dog that thinks that NO ONE should pet them. My dog was raised on a college campus...and trust me college girls cannot resist a puppy, he was pet by everyone and at 18 months old he could care less about other people petting him. He doesn't need the attention from other people, but accepts it when given. I'm pretty sure that this way of raising a pup is more likely to cause unwanted behavior than the wanted ones.


----------



## mycobraracr

martemchik said:


> Everybody always screams socialization on this site and yet this is completely opposite of that. By the time the dog has "look at me" down it might be too late to socialize and then you're going to have a dog that snaps at everyone that walks by.


 
Socializing your dog just means exposing it to as many different places and situations as possible. It does not mean that everyone and their Mom has to pet it. 

On another note, the OP simply asked on where to get a shirt/vest. Not opinions on how he is raising his dog.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

All of my dogs have been / are aloof by nature, people can touch them, pet them, none of them have "ever" thought anyone was more interesting than myself 

I do know of a security guy who's 3 year old gsd just attacked his neighbor and bit her up pretty good. The dog was 'trained' by him , never allowed to interact with people and well, this is what ended up happening in this case. Totally unprovoked, he saw her and went for her. Same dog nipped my husband a few weeks ago, he was just standing there ignoring the dog and bam walked up and nailed his hand. 

I do agree, when one takes their cute little puppy out into the public, EVERYONE loves a puppy and one has to EXPECT that,,however, I would have stepped right in when someone else was throwing their obedience training on them, that wouldn't fly with me.

I think the majority of these dogs 'know' who is the center of their universe, they don't have to be isolated / untouched to know who their person is.


----------



## mtmarabianz

wyominggrandma said:


> I have been reading the rest of this thread with interest. Lots of different comments from all sides.
> However, I am still appauled that mtmarabianz seemed to think it was okay to post that very very rude comment made to me and other than two people saying it was also rude, she has been allowed to make that comment and go on as if it was not made. I am a big girl, tough and don't get my feelings hurt and can argue with the best ofthem, but I was totally overwhelmed that a comment like she made specifially to me was allowed.
> I thought that the kind of nasty rude comments were not to be allowed on this forum.. I am not sure if I will continue to be on this list. I am not talking about feelings be hurt or being tough because this is a public forum, but to be allowed to make that comment for no reason other than to be rude and nasty.


I have not read all the other posts on this thread, 
but sincerely wyominggrandma, your post, that I quoted with my post, was rather rude to say the least.

I really don't care about the advice the usual peeps post here, but this was an officer who was "spot on" in his initial posts for raising a working dog.

I am sure by now, after reading this crap that the OP has moved on to a working dog forum where he will get intelligent advice, answers, cuz there is not much in agreement here.


----------



## mtmarabianz

The topic was "Looking for a shirt"

Not critique my training.


----------



## msvette2u

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> He is cute and fluffy  I know its going to be a headache but he needs to be around people for the type of training he is getting ready to go through.
> 
> 
> 
> *I live in a small southern town.* People are VERY friendly. Its not the people that ask I have a problem with. Its the people who just do it! Maybe a vest that says "please ask before you pet me"


I'm curious if you purchased your own dog and want to train him to "be your partner" or if the PD purchased? Where will he attend police academy?


----------



## wyominggrandma

Thank you to the people who have felt that mtmarabianz post to me was rude and uncalled for.
I do not feel my posts in this thread have been rude, sure I gave my opinion, but it was not rude and actually others have posted the same thing about being in control and wanting the puppy to be "only" theirs while training. We can all have opinions and agree and disagree, but to say something so rude and nasty to me, saying what was said it not a reply nor a "my opinion"type thread. It was nasty and hurtful.
If mtmarabianz feels her post about this officers way of training is the only way to train a working dog, that is her opinion and she is entitled to it. 
I might disagree , as others did, but she basically called me a dog killer.


----------



## jb_pwrstroke

Its being trained as a working dog not a pet


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## msvette2u

codmaster said:


> Sometimes rudeness appears here. Best to consider the source and then move on.


Truer words were never spoken. 
That's twice in one week cod. 
I'm getting


----------



## Miss Molly May

JakodaCD OA said:


> A good way to get a suspension is with some of the comments I've seen here, unfortunately I am not a mod of this forum.
> 
> With that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Masi is also modeling this on the Leerburg site
> Leerburg | Mesh K9 Vest


 I like this one!!!:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## damaya

> Sorry, I need to go back to a working dog forum,


This was the best post you (mtmarabianz) ever made.
I've read every post you've put up on here and in 2 years you have become astute enough to offer advice. At this point all you should do is relate your experience as you know it, and try to do that in a less irritating fashion. Go back to the dog park thread and answer the questions you've been asked by the rude, pointless replies you offered there.

In response to the OP here. I think the vest would look good on your dog. I think it is your perogative as to who gives and when your pup attention. I think the Lowe's employee was out of line. I have also purchased / seen trained no less than 4 police K9's and none quite like the way you are choosing to go about it. Hope it works out well, and thanks for serving.


----------



## Jax08

jb_pwrstroke said:


> Its being trained as a working dog not a pet


but does that matter if he is a pet or working dog? If I don't want strangers petting my puppy, shouldn't I have the right say so without being harassed about it? Especially when stranger was doing her own form of training on the puppy?


----------



## Holmeshx2

yes sometimes it's best to consider the source and move on however a completely off subject unprovoked nasty personal attack is just uncalled for and NOT allowed. You can argue, disagree etc.. but sometimes it's crossing the line and again this wasn't even provoked like in the process of an argument. 

Mtmarabianz why in the heck are you fighting this so much? You are just being completely nasty in this thread for no reason. I guess since you're not on this board asking questions you must know it all. There is not one way to raise a working dog.. again I ask what your experience is in raising an actual working dog. The OP is actually a decent person and has been very willing to learn in my experience. I believe he had a bad experience and was ticked off but have no doubt he'd be open to at least hearing other peoples advice and think about it and if he would like to use it or not.


----------



## Mrs.K

Holmeshx2 said:


> yes sometimes it's best to consider the source and move on however a completely off subject unprovoked nasty personal attack is just uncalled for and NOT allowed. You can argue, disagree etc.. but sometimes it's crossing the line and again this wasn't even provoked like in the process of an argument.
> 
> Mtmarabianz why in the heck are you fighting this so much? You are just being completely nasty in this thread for no reason. I guess since you're not on this board asking questions you must know it all. There is not one way to raise a working dog.. again I ask what your experience is in raising an actual working dog. The OP is actually a decent person and has been very willing to learn in my experience. I believe he had a bad experience and was ticked off but have no doubt he'd be open to at least hearing other peoples advice and think about it and if he would like to use it or not.


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## Alexandria610

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> I am having trouble finding one and I NEED one!!!
> So my little guy is 12 weeks today. For some of his social skills we take him with us all over the place and people want to just jump down and pet him. I dont want this. A lot of people ask and a nicely say "please dont he is in training" So the other day we go to Lowes. The cashier asked if she could pet him and I gave the standard answer. We start chatting with her and a couple other people come over and the cashier acualy told them not to pet him. Well this one employee stands in front of my puppy and begins this "sit, sit sit". The whole while Storm is looking at him like "What in the **** are you saying" because thats not the way he has been trained. So, before I know it, this %$%& proceeds to lean down and start pushing Storms rear end down saying "sit"! This is where I was almost asked to leave. I said I didnt say he needed a trainer I said he is in training I dont need a trainer, I need a 2x4 and walked away. I was POed to say the least. What gal? To pet is one thing but who are you to force MY dog into doing something? Im still fuming about that!!!



I agree with you and everyone else that has stated that the employee was WAY out of line when they did that to your dog - nobody has the right (unless you tell them to, or specifically take them to a trainer) to touch your dog like that, in a manner as to make him do as they command.

As far as the petting issue goes, I was a bit surprised upon first reading your post, but when you mentioned the pup being brought up to be a police K9, it made more sense. Regardless, I think you have the right to tell people if they are allowed or if they are not allowed to pet your dog. It isn't like you said "you aren't allowed to look at him. Don't even wave or 'coo' because he's cute and fluffy."

As others stated, taking him into stores and the like will definitely get people to notice him and of course want to pet him - and as everyone already knows, not everybody has 'dog manners' like most intelligent dog owners. As much as I love seeing cute little puppies in places, I always ask first, if at all, if I can touch the dog. Since most people have an inclination to touch a soft, cute, young dog, it will indeed be hard to ask them to stop without looking like a 'bad guy' or feeling like you have to (this is totally not meant to be a pun, but I cannot think of another way to say it) police your dog.

As for the vest idea, I think it is a good one. I also expect (like a few have mentioned) that it will not work 100% of the time, but with the experience I have had when my dog just wears her 'dog backpack' people assume she is 'in training' to be a guide dog or service dog or therapy dog of some kind, and usually just smile and move on without touching her. Granted, she is a larger dog (almost 2 years) but without the pack she constantly has people running up to touch her. They like the idea that they get to pet a 'real wolf-dog' even though she is nothing of the sort - they just assume she is by her physical appearance (even after I tell them she isn't).

I really like the examples that were posted on this thread of the vests/harnesses/patches. They look professional and large enough to be noticed by passersby when approaching your dog. Also, I like that they seem quite breathable and look comfortable so as not to inhibit any of the dog's movement.

Good luck! Keep us updated on the development and if you choose a vest/device and how it works for you.


----------



## Jessiewessie99

I would think the dog needs to be ok in certain situations with people. I understand the dog is going to be a k-9. I totally respect that and understand. I was watching K-9 Cops on Animal Planet and one of the officers goes with his K-9 partner to children's hospitals to bring joy tot he kids and show that not all police dogs are mean or bad(I am in no way saying that Police dogs are like that, I am saying that because a lot of the general public think police dog = viscous.) I know that police dogs need to have very stable temperaments and be able to be able to behave appropriately in certain situations. But this a is a 12 week old puppy. I know that most officers don't get their dogs when they are puppies. 

But then again not all departments are the same. They all operate differently.


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## Mrs.K

I think gewaltiger Sturm should get in contact with Cliffson, Carmen AND Renee. 

The dog should be raised like any other dog, however geared towards what the dog is intended for. We won't even know if the dog goes through it with a clean bill of health.


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## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> I think gewaltiger Sturm should get in contact with Cliffson, Carmen AND Renee.
> 
> The dog should be raised like any other dog, however geared towards what the dog is intended for. We won't even know if the dog goes through it with a clean bill of health.


That's what I'm wondering too...all the PD k9s I know of were not raised and trained by their own handler. They were shipped in (or donated locally, a bit more rare I am told as most PDs like the imports) and then the K9 handler/officer goes to class where they meet the dog for the 1st time.
There's rigorous testing these dogs have to go through to make sure they possess the right nerves for the duty of patrol dog. 
If not, they are bumped down to drug detection and if they fail that...well, back to being a pet.
But generally they don't start out as the officer's pet.


----------



## vomlittlehaus

Police departments are different all over the world. Some small towns cannot afford the top dollar for a trained dog. If his puppy doesnt make the cut, then he will have a wonderful pet. The OP stated he didnt want people petting his puppy at this time. There are books written on the bonding period of puppies, and this is the time. The puppy will get to be pet by others (he specifically said he allows children to pet the puppy), when the time is right. Right now, is not the time.

To the OP, try searching cafe press for a t-shirt that is small enough for the puppy. They have dog clothing. They will print whatever you want on it. The vests are a great idea, but I think would be too big right now.


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## msvette2u

Ah. Well I live in one of the smallest towns and they fundraised for a police K9 officer.


----------



## GregK

mtmarabianz said:


> The topic was "Looking for a shirt"
> 
> Not critique my training.


There's no extra charge for this. :thumbup:


----------



## wyominggrandma

Smaller than my town? No stop light , no stores open on Sunday, no mcdonalds.... 110 miles one way to a Walmart.... 
Our Sheriff's office just imported a dog for the police force. Sent the officer to training with the dog...


----------



## VonKromeHaus

There are 2 dogs I can think of off the top of my head that were raised by their handlers from puppies. My GOOD friend is a K9 officer in Oregon and she bred, raised and trained her new prospect as well as his mom who is her retired partner. They go through certifications every year just like every other officer. 

All K9 units are different. I know Benton County's dog was provided by Von Grunheide as a trained dog. Some of the other dogs that are older and some that are retired were trained by the local TD of the Schutzhund club. There are no regulations across the nation as far as I know. Every state has different K9 regulations as far as I know.


----------



## GermanShepherds6800

I train K9 handlers for multiple pds. I have traveled to at least 14 states dealing with business in pd handlers and departments and I have never found a place that does not have a requisition dept obtain the dogs in proper paperwork for working k9s. I find an officer supplying his own pdk9 questionable from the standpoint of not only training but also liability insurance and other aspects. I have found Leos and fd personal funding their own dogs for arson and search and rescue but never patrol dogs.


----------



## Chicagocanine

If your puppy is only 12 weeks old I would *definitely not* recommend getting a shirt.
For one thing, a puppy in a t-shirt is going to look even cuter to the public and they're likely going to want to pet it even more!
For another, a 12 week old puppy is growing pretty quickly and they will soon outgrow any shirt you buy.

Also I have found out from people who have service dogs that DO NOT PET ME on their dog's vest does NOT deter most people. They either ignore it, read it and pet anyway, or don't or can't read it. So most likely the people who will ignore you telling them not to pet the dog will also ignore the sign on the dog that says do not pet. My BIL has a guide dog, his dog's harness handle has a HUGE sign that says "DO NOT PET ME I AM WORKING" and people have come up, *read the sign ALOUD* and then proceeded to pet the dog! :crazy:

So I think most likely this won't work a lot better than you just telling people not to pet.
However if you really want to have something on the dog, I'd say either get a bandana with the wording on it or buy a patch that says DO NOT PET or somthing. If you have a patch you can put a velcro back on it and stick it on to whatever you want, such as for example a vest or harness, and when your puppy outgrows that harness you can easily switch it to a new one in a bigger size. You can find patches like that all over the place if you do a google search.

I really wouldn't recommend buying some type of expensive dog vest with writing on it, because your puppy will probably outgrow it so fast it won't be worth the money. 
If you do want to spend the money, I think this one is good because it has very large writing and is easily seen:
http://www.pawsitivedog.com/DogInTrainingVest.html

If you wanted you could also add "Do not pet" patches onto it too.


I would also agree that just because people pet a puppy does not mean that puppy is going to grow up learning to ignore their handler or will want to be petted by everyone they see. Most GSDs are friendly with strangers as a puppy but as they mature they become more aloof. There are exceptions of course but I don't think being allowed to be petted as a puppy causes a dog to become one, it's more their own temperament/personality. Also even a dog who enjoys petting by strangers does not necessarily get distracted easily from their owner. My dog loves being petted but I have taught her to not approach people without permission. I know police and military dogs as well who are friendly when off-duty and can be petted by the public and enjoy it and this does not distract from their jobs.


----------



## msvette2u

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I train K9 handlers for multiple pds. I have traveled to at least 14 states dealing with business in pd handlers and departments and I have never found a place that does not have a requisition dept obtain the dogs in proper paperwork for working k9s. *I find an officer supplying his own pdk9 questionable from the standpoint of not only training but also liability insurance and other aspects.* I have found Leos and fd personal funding their own dogs for arson and search and rescue but never patrol dogs.


Yeah I'd agree about the liability. Arson, drug sniffing, SAR and the like aren't as exacting as patrol work...while they have to excel at what they do, they aren't out there biting people like patrol dogs.
But maybe the OP meant drug or explosives detection!


----------



## selzer

Usually police officers around here do not need a vest for people not to pet their dogs without permission. I am sorry, but people respond to body language as much as dogs do. Stand up straight and do not open yourself to unwanted advances. Use your presence. Be aware of your surroundings and be proactive.

Nobody has EVER pushed a puppy of mine into a sit. That is simply not ok. People generally ask before they pet too. Occasionally some kids will be enroute without any signs of asking permission and I head those kids off at the pass.


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## Verivus

I know of at least one k9 officer off the top of my head who raised/trained his own k9 from puppyhood. This dog is now a dual purpose patrol dog. I don't agree with your training method, but to each his own. I doubt a vest will be helpful.


----------



## msvette2u

Was that puppy obtained with the idea in mind already of using him for working, or did the idea come after the puppy was obtained?
It seemed as if the OP (from reading past posts) obtained this puppy as a pet and has now gotten permission to use him as a patrol officer. 
I could be wrong though


----------



## Verivus

msvette2u said:


> Was that puppy obtained with the idea in mind already of using him for working, or did the idea come after the puppy was obtained?
> It seemed as if the OP (from reading past posts) obtained this puppy as a pet and has now gotten permission to use him as a patrol officer.
> I could be wrong though


He was obtained with the clear goal of k9 work. The officer also has a good handle on breed knowledge, training, and is either in charge of or a part of evaluating green dogs for his department.


----------



## Alexandria610

Verivus said:


> He was obtained with the clear goal of k9 work. *The officer also has a good handle on breed knowledge, training, and is either in charge of or a part of evaluating green dogs for his department.*



Not to fight, but are you talking about the OP in this sentence? He mentions in another thread where he first gets the puppy that he is the one that asked for a K9 portion to his department, and from that I am lead to believe that this is a new thing, starting with this dog. He also mentions being a "K9 Virgin." That's not to say that he doesn't have a lot of breed knowledge, training (outside of police K9, or at least outside of owning one and training for his specific department), but I don't know if he's been a part of evaluating any green dogs for his department, as it seems this program is newly established.

I could be wrong though. I don't, however, doubt his knowledge of the breed and of dog training in general. Just wanted to try and clear it up for my benefit.


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## sparra

If a police officer has to come on a public forum for advice on handling his future K-9 in a public place then good luck to you all over there.......I would have thought all this would be very well covered in the "manual" of training police dogs........just doesn't make much sense to me.


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## msvette2u

I could be mistaken; but i thought the pup had a fear of fireworks and also the op wanted advice on the puppy's "humping" behavior?


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

*WOW!! *
*Let me start by saying first and foremost Thank you to the people who understand where I am coming from and thank you for the links. *
Now:
If you will notice, I have not posted much under this topic. I have watched it evolve all day into something it isn't and I have watched people attacking each other. I will address a few comments after saying what I have to say. I came to this forum to freshen up on things I have not come across in a while. It has been a long time since I had my last GSD and want only the best for him and any other animal I have for that matter. I have a $2000.00 filter system on my salt water aquarium for god sakes. I made this post asking where one might find a particular shirt. I in no way asked for training advice. To the ones who decided to bash and tell me the way YOU would do. Thank you but your advice is unsolicited. Not a single person has even asked what level of training experience I have or who would even be training the dog!! Just assumptions!! Nope, just decided I must be beneath you because you have 1000s of post and I don't or maybe its just the almighty syndrome. Either way please note I asked for a shirt not training advice. I welcome comments and suggestions and will gladly read all of them and decide what is best for my situation. 
How can a group of people who don't even know me know whats best for me and my situation? 
Fact: Yes I am a police officer. 
Fact: yes this dog is being tested for his ability to perform as a K-9 unit. Fact: I work for a very small dept that needs to save money however possible. 
Fact: this puppy was bought from a breeder who sells to police departments. 
Fact: Not a single person asked who would be training this dog!! It was assumed that I was the trainer. Again, assumption. 
Please read the post from start to finish as I have and see how it has evolved even with me not saying anything. Ever think that just maybe someone else will be doing the training and I footed the bill for the puppy because I wanted to save my dept money and if it doesn't work out then guess what, I have a great new best friend and we move on and try something else. Either way its a win win for me! You know, the guy who asked about a simple vest!!!
At this time I would like to address some comments. If you didn't get quoted dont feel left out and please excuse and forgive me as your post may have just been to winded or your post was made without reading the entire topic. Doesn't mean it didn't piss me off though. I am however impressed that some of you took the time to research some of my other post and incorporate them into this topic. Good Job!!!!



shepherdmom said:


> Thank you for helping to protect and keep us safe.
> 
> Good luck to you and your little guy!


Thank you! I have a thankless job and its nice when someone recognizes that!



wyominggrandma said:


> Sounds to me like you are a "I am in total control at all times" kinda guy. You are controlling a 12 week old puppy like he is a mature dog in training, not a baby just learning about the world.. How sad for the puppy, I imagine his life is total control control control.Does he ever get to be normal, or do you control his every movement?
> 
> Never heard of police dog traing like this,sounds more like your authority training.
> 
> Since his every moment is under your control, hope you never get sick or hospitalized, the poor puppy will not be able to do anything since you are not there to control him.


Controlling? You don't even know me? I have never been controlling in my life! How dare you launch a personal attack on someone you don't even know. You judge me from a single post? Good job. I hope you feel better about yourself! And yes he does get to be normal! No he doesn't leave my sight. Maybe I should just let him run a muck and do what he pleases! Advise noted!! 




martemchik said:


> I would like an answer as to why the guy thinks his dog shouldn't be pet that hardcore. I'm all for not letting every creeper on the street pet your dog, but if you're brining it into Lowes and then getting pissed when people want to pet your 3 month old puppy you should take a look at the situation.


Just to clear something up, I got pissed at the employee putting my dog in a sit after giving him a command. My puppy is going through marker training and who is this person to give my dog a sit command and proceed to push his rear end down? It wasn't the petting.



sparra said:


> If a police officer has to come on a public forum for advice on handling his future K-9 in a public place then good luck to you all over there.......I would have thought all this would be very well covered in the "manual" of training police dogs........just doesn't make much sense to me.


Again, I referer you back to the original post that was made. I in NO way was asking for training advice. I was asking for a **** vest. What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can make a post on something they didn't read all the way through!



msvette2u said:


> I could be mistaken; but i thought the pup had a fear of fireworks and also the op wanted advice on the puppy's "humping" behavior?


NO! I was commenting on someone elses post about the fear of fireworks. You can shoot a gun beside my puppy and he will stand there and the humping thing was a completely different post all together.

Now on to the following post:

*gypsyrose* 
_you better get your act together now if you want this dog to be your partner you have a long way to go i hope you know its takes nearl two years of training to get a dog ready for the training required to go on patrol. You cops and your dogs worry me. try and remember your badge gives you authority it in no way makes you an authority_

*WHAT?* Just were did this come from? Ever think to ask if I know how long it takes before making a snide comment? _Get my act together_? I have my act together but thank you for the nice suggestion!! "_You cops and your dogs worry me_"? Really? Us cops huh? How about next time you need the police, call a crackhead! "_try and remember your badge gives you authority it in no way makes you an authority"_ Authority on what? Asking where I can find a vest for my dog?
It seems to me you have had some bad experiences with police. I will have you know, I got into police work to help people! I give more warning to people than tickets! I put my life on the line everyday! I leave my house not knowing if it will be the last time I ever see my wife! I do all this for minimal pay and NEVER complain about it. Why? To help the people in this world who just might need help one day. I will never change the but I enjoy what I do and I can say I am in the small percent of people who can say they love what they do for a living even though everyday could be my last and to have someone like YOU come at me the way you did is uncalled for. Until you know me, don't judge me!!


Now, with all that said, I can tell you this, besides this topic I watched another I believe was call "The look". The same thing happened. Someone makes a post and before you know it BAM they are being bashed and were run off the forum because people were rude to them and turned to original post into something it wasn't. I felt sorry for the OPer. People come here to ask questions and get advice and maybe show off there dogs and maybe get a good compliment and maybe a feel good moment when someone says something nice about a photo of there "baby". I assume most people don't come here to ask a question only to have everyone elses ideas crammed down there throat and made to feel like a piece of crap. Everyone has a different idea on how to do things. Just because my way isn't your way doesn't make your way the right way! I have thick skin and will speak my mind when pushed to that point. 
*If you think I am going to get into a flame war with anyone on this forum, you are sadly mistaken!!* I will not be posting anything else on this forum as there is to much information on the web to have to deal with some of the people on this here. I came here to have a good time and enjoy myself and get away from the real world if only for a moment. I deal with enough BS in my line of work! I will gladly get my information other places. I have never made a nasty post to anyone on this forum! To ALL the decent people on here a bit you a fond farewell!!


----------



## Kaz

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> *WOW!! *
> *Let me start by saying first and foremost Thank you to the people who understand where I am coming from and thank you for the links. *
> Now:
> If you will notice, I have not posted much under this topic. I have watched it evolve all day into something it isn't and I have watched people attacking each other. I will address a few comments after saying what I have to say. I came to this forum to freshen up on things I have not come across in a while. It has been a long time since I had my last GSD and want only the best for him and any other animal I have for that matter. I have a $2000.00 filter system on my salt water aquarium for god sakes. I made this post asking where one might find a particular shirt. I in no way asked for training advice. To the ones who decided to bash and tell me the way YOU would do. Thank you but your advice is unsolicited. Not a single person has even asked what level of training experience I have or who would even be training the dog!! Just assumptions!! Nope, just decided I must be beneath you because you have 1000s of post and I don't or maybe its just the almighty syndrome. Either way please note I asked for a shirt not training advice. I welcome comments and suggestions and will gladly read all of them and decide what is best for my situation.
> How can a group of people who don't even know me know whats best for me and my situation?
> Fact: Yes I am a police officer.
> Fact: yes this dog is being tested for his ability to perform as a K-9 unit. Fact: I work for a very small dept that needs to save money however possible.
> Fact: this puppy was bought from a breeder who sells to police departments.
> Fact: Not a single person asked who would be training this dog!! It was assumed that I was the trainer. Again, assumption.
> Please read the post from start to finish as I have and see how it has evolved even with me not saying anything. Ever think that just maybe someone else will be doing the training and I footed the bill for the puppy because I wanted to save my dept money and if it doesn't work out then guess what, I have a great new best friend and we move on and try something else. Either way its a win win for me! You know, the guy who asked about a simple vest!!!
> At this time I would like to address some comments. If you didn't get quoted dont feel left out and please excuse and forgive me as your post may have just been to winded or your post was made without reading the entire topic. Doesn't mean it didn't piss me off though. I am however impressed that some of you took the time to research some of my other post and incorporate them into this topic. Good Job!!!!
> 
> 
> Thank you! I have a thankless job and its nice when someone recognizes that!
> 
> 
> Controlling? You don't even know me? I have never been controlling in my life! How dare you launch a personal attack on someone you don't even know. You judge me from a single post? Good job. I hope you feel better about yourself! And yes he does get to be normal! No he doesn't leave my sight. Maybe I should just let him run a muck and do what he pleases! Advise noted!!
> 
> 
> 
> Just to clear something up, I got pissed at the employee putting my dog in a sit after giving him a command. My puppy is going through marker training and who is this person to give my dog a sit command and proceed to push his rear end down? It wasn't the petting.
> 
> 
> Again, I referer you back to the original post that was made. I in NO way was asking for training advice. I was asking for a **** vest. What doesn't make sense to me is how someone can make a post on something they didn't read all the way through!
> 
> 
> NO! I was commenting on someone elses post about the fear of fireworks. You can shoot a gun beside my puppy and he will stand there and the humping thing was a completely different post all together.
> 
> Now on to the following post:
> 
> *gypsyrose*
> _you better get your act together now if you want this dog to be your partner you have a long way to go i hope you know its takes nearl two years of training to get a dog ready for the training required to go on patrol. You cops and your dogs worry me. try and remember your badge gives you authority it in no way makes you an authority_
> 
> *WHAT?* Just were did this come from? Ever think to ask if I know how long it takes before making a snide comment? _Get my act together_? I have my act together but thank you for the nice suggestion!! "_You cops and your dogs worry me_"? Really? Us cops huh? How about next time you need the police, call a crackhead! "_try and remember your badge gives you authority it in no way makes you an authority"_ Authority on what? Asking where I can find a vest for my dog?
> It seems to me you have had some bad experiences with police. I will have you know, I got into police work to help people! I give more warning to people than tickets! I put my life on the line everyday! I leave my house not knowing if it will be the last time I ever see my wife! I do all this for minimal pay and NEVER complain about it. Why? To help the people in this world who just might need help one day. I will never change the but I enjoy what I do and I can say I am in the small percent of people who can say they love what they do for a living even though everyday could be my last and to have someone like YOU come at me the way you did is uncalled for. Until you know me, don't judge me!!
> 
> 
> Now, with all that said, I can tell you this, besides this topic I watched another I believe was call "The look". The same thing happened. Someone makes a post and before you know it BAM they are being bashed and were run off the forum because people were rude to them and turned to original post into something it wasn't. I felt sorry for the OPer. People come here to ask questions and get advice and maybe show off there dogs and maybe get a good compliment and maybe a feel good moment when someone says something nice about a photo of there "baby". I assume most people don't come here to ask a question only to have everyone elses ideas crammed down there throat and made to feel like a piece of crap. Everyone has a different idea on how to do things. Just because my way isn't your way doesn't make your way the right way! I have thick skin and will speak my mind when pushed to that point.
> *If you think I am going to get into a flame war with anyone on this forum, you are sadly mistaken!!* I will not be posting anything else on this forum as there is to much information on the web to have to deal with some of the people on this here. I came here to have a good time and enjoy myself and get away from the real world if only for a moment. I deal with enough BS in my line of work! I will gladly get my information other places. I have never made a nasty post to anyone on this forum! To ALL the decent people on here a bit you a fond farewell!!



WoW! Very similar to my experience. 

And its the same band of unsolicited do-gooders.


----------



## Mrs.K

You shouldn't leave just because of a couple of nasty comments. Please stay.


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## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Mrs K

Alot of times you have to weed thru the 'doggie poop' to get the answers your looking for .

With that, stay because there is alot of good information on here , just bring your pooper scooper))


----------



## Verivus

Alexandria610 said:


> Not to fight, but are you talking about the OP in this sentence? He mentions in another thread where he first gets the puppy that he is the one that asked for a K9 portion to his department, and from that I am lead to believe that this is a new thing, starting with this dog. He also mentions being a "K9 Virgin." That's not to say that he doesn't have a lot of breed knowledge, training (outside of police K9, or at least outside of owning one and training for his specific department), but I don't know if he's been a part of evaluating any green dogs for his department, as it seems this program is newly established.
> 
> I could be wrong though. I don't, however, doubt his knowledge of the breed and of dog training in general. Just wanted to try and clear it up for my benefit.



No I am not talking about the OP. If you read my previous post you'd know I'm talking about a k9 officer I know.  I know nothing about the OP.


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## Gwenhwyfair

To the OP......

After my first few posts I didn't post here for almost a year.

There are a lot of helpful people here too! I search the net for answers to questions I may have - some of the best and most helpful information is here. 

I'm glad I decided to come back and participate. I hope you will decide to come back and participate also.

Best to you and your pup as you both look forward to becoming best buds and working partners.


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## martemchik

Sorry if anything I said offended you, but anytime you post a big question with a story, some part of it that you don't actually care about will be disseminated. I was really just asking for my own knowledge as to why someone would have that kind of outlook towards this situation. I hope in a previous post you saw that I completely supported what you were doing as a handler and had no issue with your police department allowing you to purchase your own pup and seeing if it had what it took. Everyone's got their own training agenda, I mean just a few years ago the whole motivation only thing was probably greatly questioned, and now its the preferred way of training for many people.


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## Verivus

I remember my first thread here. I asked a specific question and instead got unsolicited advice and an interrogation. Obviously that made me annoyed, especially since a few talked as though they were all knowing. You learn to take the good and ignore the stupid. You can learn quite a lot if you can do that.


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## Holmeshx2

awww don't leave :teary: If nothing else at least stay for the RAW information  Plus I want updated pictures of the fuzz butt. So if I drive that way and go a little to fast I can just get a warning  lol. Honestly, some people are hard to deal with here but it's easier to ignore it. Some people come off WAY rude and then when others jump in because of it the entire tone of a thread changes it really happens sometimes just staying calm and brushing the others off works best. We all love the dogs so it's hard to bite your tongue at times but MOST people don't do it maliciously. There is SO MUCH information to lose out on by letting the bad people run you off. Especially for what you are doing with your pup there are a few people here (none of them commented on this thread BTW) that are just invaluable to have in your back pocket for advice but they don't jump into this sort of thread because they won't deal with the bickering and those are the people when they speak you shut up and listen when I see them post I don't say a word I just sit back and read every single word they write. I say go throw Storm a chicken wing and grab yourself a beer (or 2) and just hang around a bit longer. Oh yeah and post an updated pic of the little man :toasting:


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## Cassidy's Mom

This is just another example of someone giving very little information in their initial post and then getting bent out of shape by the responses they got. If all the details were there in the first place people wouldn't have to fill in the blanks themselves or make guesses about the circumstances. When you start a thread, especially if you haven't been here long enough for everyone to really know you, you can't expect that they're going to go hunt down your previous threads to get more information, they're going to go with what you posted HERE, in THIS thread, and reply based on that. Happens all the time.....


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## Holmeshx2

Debbie it's true however in this case it was a dam if you do dam if you don't situation. He really just wanted to know where to find a shirt and asked in the equipment section. If he gave all the details (which he gave PLENTY) people would still ignore what he was asking for and get into training methods and if he gave no back story and simply asked where can I buy a vest they would still feel the need to lecture about it and ask why he didn't give all the details etc... sometimes there is just no right answer. Just getting the advice isn't the issue as much as it turning into a huge debate between everyone and of course the people that come off as less then tactful in their delivery.


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## Jax08

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is just another example of someone giving very little information in their initial post and then getting bent out of shape by the responses they got. If all the details were there in the first place people wouldn't have to fill in the blanks themselves or make guesses about the circumstances. When you start a thread, especially if you haven't been here long enough for everyone to really know you, you can't expect that they're going to go hunt down your previous threads to get more information, they're going to go with what you posted HERE, in THIS thread, and reply based on that. Happens all the time.....


I don't agree with this. Many assumptions and judgements were made on this thread that weren't even relevant to the question. When I read it, my understanding was that he was upset that someone who was told not to pet the puppy also proceeded to do her own version of training on the puppy therefore, he wanted a shirt to tell ppl not to pet the puppy.

It turned into judgement and assumptions on the person's personality, job, etc because he doesn't want everyone to pet the puppy.

And then very few people actually answered his question. So, why should a person have to give their whole personal history to get a simple question answered?

If I don't want any strangers to pet my puppy without asking or invitation, then I should have that right, regardless if my dog is a personal pet, a working dog or a sport dog. If someone walked up to any of our dogs and proceeded to start "training" and pushing on our dogs, very few of us would not come unglued.

It was such a simple question that exploded into one very nasty thread.


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## Courtney

I agree with Jax08 & Holmeshx2 on this.

This thread just went off in so many different directions so fast...I actually just read every page...wow. Especially slamming his/her profession & then telling them the puppy is pretty much doomed in their care. This thread was nasty.


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## wyominggrandma

I myself wrote a personal apology to the OP. I was out of line talking about being a "control freak" and told him so. 
I was sad over loosing Bones(in the Chat section) the night before and this just sparked a comment from me. 
I don't believe for a minute I deserved what mtmarabianz said to me,but thats another thing altogether.


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## msvette2u

Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is just another example of someone giving very little information in their initial post and then getting bent out of shape by the responses they got. If all the details were there in the first place people wouldn't have to fill in the blanks themselves or make guesses about the circumstances. When you start a thread, especially if you haven't been here long enough for everyone to really know you, you can't expect that they're going to go hunt down your previous threads to get more information, they're going to go with what you posted HERE, in THIS thread, and reply based on that. Happens all the time.....


I agree with this actually because plenty of times people come on here and ask for advice when others see only warning signs.
If this is an honest-to-God PD officer in training, why didn't the OP protect him better, instead of standing chatting with the clerk and not paying attention to another person getting ready to push the puppy's butt down?
As someone else said, "it's all in the body language". In fact the OP then went on to mention he "would like a 2x4" which is kind of a strange statement for an officer to make. 
It seems a bit odd, when re-reading it. Most people stressed that Police K9 officers (the dogs themselves) have got to be trustworthy with the public, so why discourage petting?
I really don't know how potential k9 officers are trained or handled as puppies but it seems that even on a low budget this would be undertaken with the utmost of care as to help shape a stable adult dog.


----------



## Holmeshx2

msvette2u said:


> I agree with this actually because plenty of times people come on here and ask for advice when others see only warning signs.
> If this is an honest-to-God PD officer in training, why didn't the OP protect him better, instead of standing chatting with the clerk and not paying attention to another person getting ready to push the puppy's butt down?
> As someone else said, "it's all in the body language". In fact the OP then went on to mention he "would like a 2x4" which is kind of a strange statement for an officer to make.
> It seems a bit odd, when re-reading it. Most people stressed that Police K9 officers (the dogs themselves) have got to be trustworthy with the public, so why discourage petting?
> I really don't know how potential k9 officers are trained or handled as puppies but it seems that even on a low budget this would be undertaken with the utmost of care as to help shape a stable adult dog.


I'm pretty sure he wanted a 2x4 as in what he went to lowe's for. At least this is what I took it as which is not something that seems odd.


----------



## msvette2u

> I said I didnt say he needed a trainer I said* he is in training I dont need a trainer, I need a 2x4* and walked away.


I would still think this an odd if not threatening statement.


----------



## msvette2u

> *This is where I was almost asked to leave.*


Apparently the employees and/or management did too?


----------



## GregK

selzer said:


> Nobody has EVER pushed a puppy of mine into a sit.


Same here. And no one ever will.


----------



## GatorDog

I don't really understand why anyone is so concerned as to why he wants a vest or shirt for his puppy. It's none of our business what he is doing with it. He asked in the correct section as to where he could find one, and the only responses that need to be given are those that are directly concerning where he can buy one. Nothing else is necessary. He doesn't need to provide any internet strangers with reasons _why_ he feels he needs a vest for his puppy. The opinionated responses on what anyone else *thinks* is an "appropriate" or "right" way for him to raise his dog is totally out of line.


----------



## msvette2u

Then all he had to do (since it's this particular forum) is state "Where do I find a 'don't pet me' vest?"

He went on to add the other which is what people responded to. 
If, as you say, people need to stick to the topic and not add info, the OP should not, either.

He could have put the additional commentary on what went on in the training forum, for instance.


----------



## Holmeshx2

He didn't put it in the training forum because he wasn't interested in the training aspect of it. And you have been around this forum long enough to know darn well if he didn't give a background story every single person would have asked WHY. They all know he has a puppy and would start in the the whole "why do you want a vest for a puppy" why aren't you allowing ur puppy to be pet why aren't you socializing etc... you can not deny if he gave no information people would have done the same thing.


----------



## GatorDog

msvette2u said:


> Then all he had to do (since it's this particular forum) is state "Where do I find a 'don't pet me' vest?"
> 
> He went on to add the other which is what people responded to.
> If, as you say, people need to stick to the topic and not add info, the OP should not, either.
> 
> He could have put the additional commentary on what went on in the training forum, for instance.


But he didn't put it there. He is allowed to share the experience with his reasoning as to why he is now inclined to buy the vest, but I find it really out of line to critique the experience that he went through, and then take it another level and critique the way he is raising the dog. It's no ones business, yet everyone tries to make it so. 

And you know that had he just posted that one sentence, people still would have jumped on it as an opportunity to ask why he needed one.


----------



## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> It seems a bit odd, when re-reading it. Most people stressed that Police K9 officers (the dogs themselves) have got to be trustworthy with the public, so why discourage petting?
> .


I've been just reading and trying to stay out because I do not want to get into a war .... However the OP stated that his problem was not with someone petting his puppy but someone giving it a command to sit and then pushing on its behind to make it sit. I would have been P***ed had someone tried that with one of my dogs. Wishing for a 2x4 was totally appropriate in fact rather sedate. I would have maybe been wishing for a battle tank.  That's not to say I would actually do anything, just that I have a vivid imagination. Ok putting on my fire retardant under clothing and running fast as I can from this thread. :help:


----------



## GatorDog

Holmeshx2 said:


> He didn't put it in the training forum because he wasn't interested in the training aspect of it. And you have been around this forum long enough to know darn well if he didn't give a background story every single person would have asked WHY. They all know he has a puppy and would start in the the whole "why do you want a vest for a puppy" why aren't you allowing ur puppy to be pet why aren't you socializing etc... you can not deny if he gave no information people would have done the same thing.


LOL we just said the same thing!


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## msvette2u

Quite possibly true


----------



## bellamia

Jax08 said:


> I don't agree with this. Many assumptions and judgements were made on this thread that weren't even relevant to the question. When I read it, my understanding was that he was upset that someone who was told not to pet the puppy also proceeded to do her own version of training on the puppy therefore, he wanted a shirt to tell ppl not to pet the puppy.
> 
> It turned into judgement and assumptions on the person's personality, job, etc because he doesn't want everyone to pet the puppy.
> 
> And then very few people actually answered his question. So, why should a person have to give their whole personal history to get a simple question answered?
> 
> If I don't want any strangers to pet my puppy without asking or invitation, then I should have that right, regardless if my dog is a personal pet, a working dog or a sport dog. If someone walked up to any of our dogs and proceeded to start "training" and pushing on our dogs, very few of us would not come unglued.
> 
> It was such a simple question that exploded into one very nasty thread.


 
i agree!


----------



## Holmeshx2

Ok just to diffuse this thread for a minute. Someone posted that if it had been someone with more posts that we know it would have changed things which is probably true. While I don't personally know this person I have spent quite a bit of time talking to him about raw and helping him switch his pup onto a really good diet properly. I can tell you he is someone who jumps in head first and cares about nothing but the best and will try everything he can to accomplish it. This is specifically the reason I stated had others not have gotten so nasty but a simple few statements about the jacket probably not working and gave him a chance to explain why he was doing the no petting he more then likely would have been very receptive to listening to people. Also, the poor guy generally gets off of a 24 hour shift then comes on here to research information for his pup cut him some slack none of us are our best after a 24 hour shift and combine that with some of the comments on this thread is ridiculous and a recipe for disaster. Again I don't personally know him however just from talking to him as much as I have I have seen he is not the "my way is the only way" type of person but anyone can hit that breaking point with the way this thread has gone and the way we ALL know this forum can get at times. I mean seriously someone bad mouthed him as a cop from this and judging by the time he made his post I'm pretty sure it was another 24 hr shift I would go BALLISTIC if I came on and saw all that bickering for nothing and everyone judging me then saw someone say "you cops abuse your authority" and "get your act together" let alone the personal attacks on others for nothing.

Even if nothing else gets said I would like to say WyomingGrandma for being a big enough person to personally apologize to the OP she knows she snapped because of other things in her life and it was wrong and I'm sure the OP appreciated it as well and can understand where it came from. He's a pretty cool person who is trying his hardest to be an amazing GSD owner even if his pup washes out at K9 work he wants him as an amazing family member and some of you people are allowing your self righteous attitudes to drive him away from the boards. Really think people need to check their attitudes we all have our moments (we all know I have especially shepherdmom lol) but it's about being an adult and fixing things and not driving someone away since there is so much knowledge here for them but they can't find it when they are met with so much opposition even a saint would give up on this board sometimes.


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## martemchik

Fact of the matter is that this occurs on every single thread here. Its a public forum, and things start a discussion. There were a few people that openly came out and "attacked" this training style, while others were more inquisitive about it. I have been questioned like that a few times, I've also had my responses taken completely out of context of the thread and discussion just to be disproven when attached to a different situation...that pissed me off and I told the person that it wasn't necessary to do that.

I started reading the thread because it was starting to be an interesting discussion on training a working dog, and what the different approaches are to that. The OP got his answer with a few different choices, and then it went off somewhere else. The nastiness was also mostly towards a certain poster, not the OP...now that was uncalled for.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

GermanShepherds6800 said:


> I train K9 handlers for multiple pds. I have traveled to at least 14 states dealing with business in pd handlers and departments and I have never found a place that does not have a requisition dept obtain the dogs in proper paperwork for working k9s. I find an officer supplying his own pdk9 questionable from the standpoint of not only training but also liability insurance and other aspects. I have found Leos and fd personal funding their own dogs for arson and search and rescue but never patrol dogs.


I know in my friends case, she was a reserve officer with the dept. for a long time before she went full time, Also the dept. she is with doesn't have a lot of funding for a K9. I am not sure exactly how it worked with her, if she donated the dog to the dept. and the technically own him but she is his handler etc. I just know that she bred, raised and trains him as her patrol dog. So..not sure about the legality aspect.


----------



## martemchik

VonKromeHaus said:


> I know in my friends case, she was a reserve officer with the dept. for a long time before she went full time, Also the dept. she is with doesn't have a lot of funding for a K9. I am not sure exactly how it worked with her, if she donated the dog to the dept. and the technically own him but she is his handler etc. I just know that she bred, raised and trains him as her patrol dog. So..not sure about the legality aspect.


I don't doubt that this happens, but coming from a large city and a very sue happy environment, I can tell you that if a lawyer ever got whiff of the fact that a patrol dog was not trained by the police department and that dog had bit someone accidentally, or for no reason, whatever it may be. Just a wrongful bite lawsuit of any kind, the fact the dog was not trained by the PD the training can come into question and who knows what can happen then. So a big PD would probably not take that risk, where as a small one, in a small town, why not? The chances of this happening go down immensly.

On a side note, Milwaukee's newest drug dog is a pit bull mix...I guarantee you that wasn't a PD trained dog.


----------



## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> Fact of the matter is that this occurs on every single thread here. Its a public forum, and things start a discussion. There were a few people that openly came out and "attacked" this training style, while others were more inquisitive about it. I have been questioned like that a few times, I've also had my responses taken completely out of context of the thread and discussion just to be disproven when attached to a different situation...that pissed me off and I told the person that it wasn't necessary to do that.
> 
> *I started reading the thread because it was starting to be an interesting discussion on training a working dog, and what the different approaches are to that. *The OP got his answer with a few different choices, and then it went off somewhere else. The nastiness was also mostly towards a certain poster, not the OP...now that was uncalled for.


I truly am curious. Is the dog (puppy) working in Schutzhund, or who is training it? Is Sch enough for the puppy to mature into a competent k9 officer or is there other training involved? 
I've never heard of someone (or an LEO) buying a puppy as their own pet then making it an officer.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

martemchik said:


> I don't doubt that this happens, but coming from a large city and a very sue happy environment, I can tell you that if a lawyer ever got whiff of the fact that a patrol dog was not trained by the police department and that dog had bit someone accidentally, or for no reason, whatever it may be. Just a wrongful bite lawsuit of any kind, the fact the dog was not trained by the PD the training can come into question and who knows what can happen then. So a big PD would probably not take that risk, where as a small one, in a small town, why not? The chances of this happening go down immensly.
> 
> On a side note, Milwaukee's newest drug dog is a pit bull mix...I guarantee you that wasn't a PD trained dog.


Thats the thing, my friend has to go through the same certifications that every other K9 in WA has to go through. She trains with the local K9 officers, they all get together sometimes...but they do a lot of training on their own as well. So..the dogs are certified just like any other K9. 

I personally think that a good foundation in Schutzhund or Ring Sports would not hurt a working K9. As long as the foundation was GOOD! You do not want to put too much pressure on a puppy or young dog anyway. I know a few officers north of me that train with the local to them Schutzhund group sometimes. Sometimes our group has officers come out. It is good for them to see other decoys and environments.


----------



## RocketDog

My brother was a police officer for the Kent Police Dept for 17 years. His girlfriend was also an officer for the same dept. A K9. They buy their dogs and have them professionally trained, and the handler does take the dog through police training, but does not obtain the dog until 2 years of age and it has already had basic obedience. 

What dept in WA, VKH?


----------



## martemchik

VonKromeHaus said:


> Thats the thing, my friend has to go through the same certifications that every other K9 in WA has to go through. She trains with the local K9 officers, they all get together sometimes...but they do a lot of training on their own as well. So..the dogs are certified just like any other K9.
> 
> I personally think that a good foundation in Schutzhund or Ring Sports would not hurt a working K9. As long as the foundation was GOOD! You do not want to put too much pressure on a puppy or young dog anyway. I know a few officers north of me that train with the local to them Schutzhund group sometimes. Sometimes our group has officers come out. It is good for them to see other decoys and environments.


I don't doubt that legally this is a full fledged K9. And that it has all the same protections under the law as such. I can just see a good enough lawyer making this case and questioning the training if it was done anywhere but a PD. Its one of those things that you never want to happen, but could, lets face it people will try to make a buck anywhere they can. When it comes to law, anything that can be called into question will be called into question, and if you can convince 7 people that there is enough doubt, you win!


----------



## VonKromeHaus

What do you mean what dept.? 

Every dept. is different. I do think that larger cities most often import dogs or buy trained dogs. While smaller cities vary from officer provided dogs to imports. etc. 

Rocket- Your breeder actually donated a Puppy to Spokane Police Dept. back in 09 or 10..can't remember, I just remember the article. The officer was going to raise the puppy for K9 work. Nick donated the puppy as the handlers other K9 was killed in the line of duty.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

martemchik said:


> I don't doubt that legally this is a full fledged K9. And that it has all the same protections under the law as such. I can just see a good enough lawyer making this case and questioning the training if it was done anywhere but a PD. Its one of those things that you never want to happen, but could, lets face it people will try to make a buck anywhere they can. When it comes to law, anything that can be called into question will be called into question, and if you can convince 7 people that there is enough doubt, you win!


I understand what you are saying and such. But a lot of smaller dept. don't neccessarily have an officer with training experience. IDK. I have been a member of 3 different Schutzhund clubs, 2 in WA and 1 in NM. The 1 in NM had NUMEROUS K9s come out for training every sunday we trained since the TD of the group was also a K9 trainer. My TD used to train the local K9s and then send them to the dept. He would do a class for the handlers and dogs. In Spokane, a couple K9 officers used to train there sometimes. I really do think it varies from dept. to dept.


----------



## RocketDog

You said you had a friend that raised a pup for their K9 dog themselves. What is the dept's name?


----------



## VonKromeHaus

It is in OR. I didn't give her depts. name as I am not sure she would appreciate that. She doesn't visit internet forums for a reason. Plus, I seem to have a bit of a neurotic crazy stalker and I really don't need to give them any more info than what is necessary.

Von Grunheide and RCMP have a K9 puppy raising program as well, I am pretty sure. I will have to double check it!


----------



## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> I don't doubt that legally this is a full fledged K9. And that it has all the same protections under the law as such. I can just see a good enough lawyer making this case and questioning the training if it was done anywhere but a PD. Its one of those things that you never want to happen, but could, lets face it people will try to make a buck anywhere they can. When it comes to law, anything that can be called into question will be called into question, and if you can convince 7 people that there is enough doubt, you win!


There's been more than one suspect suing over a k9 officer biting them, you are right!


----------



## martemchik

msvette2u said:


> There's been more than one suspect suing over a k9 officer biting them, you are right!


The officer is biting people?!?!? What in the world is the dog doing at that time?!?!?!


----------



## Mrs.K

msvette2u said:


> There's been more than one suspect suing over a k9 officer biting them, you are right!


If you are dumb enough to break the law you should deal with the consequences and not be allowed to sue those that put their life on the line.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

mrs.k said:


> if you are dumb enough to break the law you should deal with the consequences and not be allowed to sue those that put their life on the line.


so true!!!!


----------



## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> If you are dumb enough to break the law you should deal with the consequences and not be allowed to sue those that put their life on the line.


It happens! I agree with you, but that's not how this country works.


----------



## msvette2u

martemchik said:


> The officer is biting people?!?!? What in the world is the dog doing at that time?!?!?!


Makes ya wonder, huh?

LOL Actually the dogs themselves _are_ police officers, complete with a badge (and badge number). When offenders hurt them, they can be charged with assault on an officer in fact.


----------



## martemchik

msvette2u said:


> Makes ya wonder, huh?
> 
> LOL Actually the dogs themselves _are_ police officers, complete with a badge (and badge number). When offenders hurt them, they can be charged with assault on an officer in fact.


I still like my way better. And yes, sadly criminals also have rights. But sometimes the dog might be told to bite a completely innocent person, or it accidentally goes for an innocent person. Also there is always a "too much force" arguement to be made when a potential suspect gets hurt.


----------



## GregK

msvette2u said:


> It happens! I agree with you, but that's not how this country works.


 ...and why is this? What's the logic behind it? Who in the world thinks this crap up????? :angryfire:


----------



## msvette2u

Using google 

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclie...f.,cf.osb&fp=4bd463be09dc681c&biw=988&bih=445


----------



## Chicagocanine

I also wanted to add, if you really want to get a dog shirt, one option is to go through Zazzle (Zazzle | Custom T-Shirts, Personalized Gifts, Posters, Art, and more). You can either try to find one someone has already made there, or design your own. 

Otherwise if you really have you heart set on a shirt but don't like zazzle's options you could just get a plain shirt and add DO NOT PET patches onto it.

Again though I would expect MORE people to want to pet a cute puppy wearing a t-shirt so this may not have the desired effect.


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

Okay, thanks to all the people who have asked me to stick around. Its a warm feeling. Wyominggrandma, thank you for the personal apology. Accepted and im sorry for your lose. I feel with my last post I spoke my mind and seem to have got my point across. 
*msvette2u*.....Why do you persist? You seem to be the only one who doesnt get it. The nastiest of all!! I will not personaly attack you because I am above that but I will point some thing out that might need clearing up to you. They are as follow.....



Cassidy's Mom said:


> This is just another example of someone giving very little information in their initial post and then getting bent out of shape by the responses they got. If all the details were there in the first place people wouldn't have to fill in the blanks themselves or make guesses about the circumstances. When you start a thread, especially if you haven't been here long enough for everyone to really know you, you can't expect that they're going to go hunt down your previous threads to get more information, they're going to go with what you posted HERE, in THIS thread, and reply based on that. Happens all the time.....


I asked for a vest. Nothing more. Why do you need to KNOW me in order to tell me where I might find what I am looking for? Why read anything into it?



msvette2u said:


> I agree with this actually because plenty of times people come on here and *ask for advice* when others see only warning signs.
> If this is an honest-to-God PD officer in training, why didn't the OP *protect him better, instead of standing chatting with the clerk and not paying attention to another person getting ready to push the puppy's butt down?*
> As someone else said, "it's all in the body language". In fact the OP then went on to mention he "*would like a 2x4" which is kind of a strange statement for an officer to make*.
> *It seems a bit odd*, when re-reading it. Most people stressed that Police K9 officers (the dogs themselves) have got to be trustworthy with the public, so why discourage petting?
> I really don't know how potential k9 officers are trained or handled as puppies but it seems that even on a low budget this would be undertaken with the utmost of care as to help shape a stable adult dog.


_Ask for advise?_ What advice did I ask for? I asked for a vest!
_Protect him instead of chatting?_ I wasnt chatting I was watching in disbeliefe. I pulled MY puppy away as it started to happen!! 
On to the 2x4 statement.....
_Strange statement?_ I was in LOWES!!! I was building 220 feet of 6x8 foot dog ear panel privacy fence for MY puppy. Lowes sells 2x4s and thats why I was at Lowes. If I had asked for a hamburger, that would have been, as you put it, a bit odd!!



msvette2u said:


> I would still think this an odd if not threatening statement.


the above quote is one made to...
I said I didnt say he needed a trainer I said* he is in training I dont need a trainer, I need a 2x4* and walked away. 
I not once threatened anyone! Not once did I even emply I was a police officer! IF I would have said I needed a gun, now that might be percieved as a threat unless I was in a gun store. You know, the place that sells guns?
Again, I was at LOWES!!! I needed a **** 2x4 and thats why I was there!!!!!



msvette2u said:


> Apparently the employees and/or management did too?


Again quoted from this...*This is where I was almost asked to leave.* 
Yes, with the tone of voice I used!!!



msvette2u said:


> Then all he had to do (since it's this particular forum) is state "Where do I find a 'don't pet me' vest?"
> 
> He went on to add the other which is what people responded to.
> If, as you say, people need to stick to the topic and not add info, the OP should not, either.
> 
> He could have put the additional commentary on what went on in the training forum, for instance.


What? Really? All I asked for was a vest. I made a staement after that! Are you going to critique every statement made and read into it?

msvette2u, with all due respect, please feel free to *not* respond to any further post I might make. As I see you read things into peoples post and feel you need to "keep things going" even when everyone else has decided to drop it.


----------



## msvette2u

Hm...and this is not an attack?  okay...




> msvette2u.....Why do you persist? You seem to be the only one who doesnt get it. *The nastiest of all!!* I will not personaly attack you because I am above that but I will point some thing out that might need clearing up to you. They are as follow.....


Did you read _anything _after that post, btw??
And any time you post on a public forum you risk this kind of thing happening. I didn't even weigh in until page 10, I believe. Plenty of others asked the same things I was.
If you don't care to see my posts, put me on ignore.


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

Point proven!
Leave it alone!
And believe me, it wasnt an attack! It was me pointing things out.


----------



## msvette2u

> Point proven


??? 

I have "left it alone" for the past 5-6 pages. And again, if my posts are so upsetting, then feel free to use the ignore button.


----------



## damaya

She responded 10 minutes after you. It's almost like post stalking isn't it. You knew it was going to happen though right? 

This has been an interesting thread. I'll admit I didn't have much to offer with my posts in it, and I apologize for wasting bandwidth. 

Once again I'm sure the vest will look good on your pup, and thanks for serving.


----------



## Mrs.K

Leerburg Vests are nice. 

Leerburg Dog Training | Service Dog Vests


----------



## msvette2u

damaya, I use "user CP". Of course whatever posts I have posted in show up and when people "call me out" I do feel a need to respond. Is that so unusual...for anyone on this board?? That is not 
"post stalking". That's normal board usage. I'm assuming this board has that feature for that reason.


----------



## wildo

Come on, msvette2u- you know you want to update your signature to "I'm a post stalker and proud of it!"

oke: 

...Post stalking. Ha... that's a new one. Oh wait- you mean a simple thread subscription. Oh, now I see.


----------



## Good_Karma

gewaltiger Sturm, I am so impressed that you went shopping for building supplies with a puppy in tow!! Even had you not had a bad experience with the clerk, I imagine you would still have left with a migraine! My husband and I built a house, and we spent so many hours at either Lowes or Home Depot and I can only imagine how swiftly those hours would have multiplied had we been trying to shop with a puppy too!

Good luck in your training and building project, looks like you already got some great suggestions on the vest/t-shirt thing. If it gets to the point where even that doesn't work, you could always go to places with a second person to ward people off if they look like they are going to accost your pup.


----------



## msvette2u

wildo said:


> Come on, msvette2u- you know you want to update your signature to "I'm a post stalker and proud of it!"
> 
> oke:
> 
> ...Post stalking. Ha... that's a new one. Oh wait- you mean a simple thread subscription. Oh, now I see.


Actually I was hoping for one of those nifty tags under my name


----------



## damaya

Did he "attack" you or are you just defensive that out of 15 pages of mostly poo your posts were the ones that bothered him most? 

And thank you for telling me about "user cp" didn't even know what that was. I'll quit post stalking you now.


----------



## msvette2u

Yanno what? I really don't care one way or another. 
Do you think something like that would bother me? 
I just find it ironic that he badmouths me then says he won't! I'm weird like that (seeing irony in it) 

But it's hard to escape the fact that people get on here and whine about feeling attacked or whatever then proceed to attack others just like that. And that happens over and over, no matter _what_ the thread.


----------



## Mrs.K

**Removed by Admin**


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## Jax08

Mrs. K! :rofl:


----------



## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> ** quote removed by Admin**


That is a :rofl:


----------



## vomlittlehaus

Mrs K.!! :spittingcoffee:


----------



## mycobraracr

Mrs.K said:


> ** removed by Admin **


 
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 

I LOVE IT!


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

mrs.k said:


> ** removed by Admin **


:d:d:d:d:d:d


----------



## selzer

Now wait just a minute Mr. PoliceMan. Do you knock on someone's door and say, "Open Up Police!" in plain clothes, and expect people to just open their door, or do you expect to show some proof. 

This is the internet. Any Tom, Debbie, or Harry can SAY they are a police officer, a breeder, a veterinarian, or a lawyer, should we just believe them all? Especially when they explain something that goes against everything that has been taught, written, discussed about raising a puppy? So if I said, "Look, I'm a vet, and I know that if I feed my puppy nothing but macaroni noodles, he will be just fine" we should not call them on it?

If you want to go, go. We are nasty, we are mean, we see someone brand new to the site, making a giant mistake with their puppy, and we are not supposed to say boo about it because he claims to be a police officer. If that is the kind of site you want, then you are in the wrong place. We actually care about dogs and puppies. 

Maybe you are, maybe you are not really a police officer, if you are, I would expect you to expect us to not take everything people say at face value. Like in our area, our departments are under-funded and police officers cannot afford a $2000 filter for a fish tank, but whatever. Some of our guys do train their own dogs, generally they buy green dogs, not puppies. Green dogs cost more than puppies, but are much less likely to wash.


----------



## Mrs.K

Selzer... you are going a little too far right now. 

You know, my husband is a SGT in the Army and we have very expensive stuff that we couldn't have afforded on our own, yet we have it and it's nobodies business how we were able to afford it. It's none of your or my business how he afforded a 2000 Dollar fish tank. Maybe he got a Bonus. Maybe he's got money in the family, maybe he's got a wife that has a good and better paying job, maybe he just used a darn credit card. 

WHO CARES!


----------



## mycobraracr

selzer said:


> We are nasty, we are mean, we see someone brand new to the site, making a giant mistake with their puppy, and we are not supposed to say boo about it because he claims to be a police officer.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Just a question. What mistake?


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

selzer said:


> Now wait just a minute Mr. PoliceMan. Do you knock on someone's door and say, "Open Up Police!" in plain clothes, and expect people to just open their door, *or do you expect to show some proof*.
> 
> This is the internet. Any Tom, Debbie, or Harry can SAY they are a police officer, a breeder, a veterinarian, or a lawyer, should we just believe them all? Especially when they explain something that goes against everything that has been taught, written, discussed about raising a puppy? So if I said, "Look, I'm a vet, and I know that if I feed my puppy nothing but macaroni noodles, he will be just fine" we should not call them on it?
> 
> If you want to go, go. We are nasty, we are mean, we see someone brand new to the site, *making a giant mistake with their puppy*, and we are not supposed to say boo about it because he claims to be a police officer. If that is the kind of site you want, then you are in the wrong place. We actually care about dogs and puppies.
> 
> *Maybe you are, maybe you are not really a police officer*, if you are, I would expect you to expect us to not take everything people say at face value. Like in our area, our departments are under-funded and *police officers cannot afford a $2000 filter for a fish tank*, but whatever. Some of our guys do train their own dogs, generally they buy green dogs, not puppies. Green dogs cost more than puppies, but are much less likely to wash.


Yet another person that doesnt understand I asked for a vest not unsolicited training advise. What mistake? You have many post so you think you kow everything there is to know? You are taking what other people have assumed and run with it! After 15 pages why post now? I need to prove nothing to you but if it would make you feel better to see a picture with me in uniform I could happy post one. Although im sure I would get the "thats not you resonse" and again, you dont know me! How do you know what I can and cant afford? Am I married? Maybe I am and just maybe my wife works! Maybe even in the medical field. So dont tell me what I can and cant afford!!


----------



## wyominggrandma

Love the fish tank...... beautiful.


----------



## Holmeshx2

salt water tank :teary: /jealous

but come on we all know thats not yours you either A) took the picture from the internet or B) confiscated it from a raid


----------



## msvette2u

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> Yet another person that doesnt understand I asked for a vest not unsolicited training advise.


Everyone understood that just fine. As others said, the unsolicited advice is going to occur _any time you post on a public forum. _ It's just one more free service we offer 

And I_ am _honestly curious about your training process - not to criticize but to understand it.
There is a really high incidence of dogs washing out, and I wonder how you'll know? Is there an overseer to the process?


----------



## selzer

Mrs. K, I think that violates board rules, LOL!


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

wyominggrandma said:


> Love the fish tank...... beautiful.


 Thank you!


Holmeshx2 said:


> salt water tank :teary: /jealous
> 
> but come on we all know thats not yours you either A) took the picture from the internet or B) confiscated it from a raid


 LOL, yea we carried it to the house, all 125 gallons of it. Only took 2 of us. 



msvette2u said:


> Everyone understood that just fine. As others said, the unsolicited advice is going to occur _any time you post on a public forum. _It's just one more free service we offer
> 
> And I_ am _honestly curious about your training process - not to criticize but to understand it.
> There is a really high incidence of dogs washing out, and I wonder how you'll know? Is there an overseer to the process?


Even after BOTH of my large post the lady or gentleman is still assuming on the training and my skills. They are just a late bloomer. Its Okay
As for the training, now that everyone has raised there blood pressure and you are the *first to ask*, No I am not the trainer of this dog! I was merly given the OK to buy the dog as my own. The department has agreed to have it evaluated and trained if the trainer deems him fit. The trainer trains State police and local police dogs. In exchange, I the owner of the dog, lease him to the city for $1.00 a year. So he will always be mine but being that he is leased it covers the insurance issue and all the other legal BS that goes along with it. If the trainer does not deem him worthy then I have a new best friend. I was going to buy another GSD anyway so everything worked out. After the grants and donations the city is spending very little. Its a win win for both of us!! 
I hope this answers you questions and puts you at ease. Mark my words. I will prove a point when someone else makes another **** post about this and it will be obvious they didnt read this particular post!


----------



## Jax08

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> As for the training, now that everyone has raised there blood pressure and you are the *first to ask*, No I am not the trainer of this dog! I was merly given the OK to buy the dog as my own. The department has agreed to have it evaluated and trained if the trainer deems him fit. The trainer trains State police and local police dogs. In exchange, I the owner of the dog, lease him to the city for $1.00 a year. So he will always be mine but being that he is leased it covers the insurance issue and all the other legal BS that goes along with it. If the trainer does not deem him worthy then I have a new best friend. I was going to buy another GSD anyway so everything worked out. After the grants and donations the city is spending very little. Its a win win for both of us!!
> !


Now that you have explained all that we can suggest a vest. See..that wasn't so hard...was it? :rofl:


----------



## sparra

Well I stand by what I said. I wasn't personally attacking you or questioning if you were indeed a police officer...simply questioning the way in which a potential police k-9 can be trained by a person who has admitted that he needs to brush up on his skills when it comes to handling young puppies.
You did not ask for advice in this thread but you have in others.
Your way just wouldn't happen here in Australia that is all......nothing more...nothing less...Good Luck

Oh and I am posting now cause I am 14hrs "behind" and have to catch up!!!!!


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

Jax08 said:


> Now that you have explained all that we can suggest a vest. See..that wasn't so hard...was it? :rofl:


No one ever asked! They all just assumed what they wanted to so I figured I would just sit back and see where it went.


----------



## Mrs.K

sparra said:


> Well I stand by what I said. I wasn't personally attacking you or questioning if you were indeed a police officer...simply questioning the way in which a potential police k-9 can be trained by a person who has admitted that he needs to brush up on his skills when it comes to handling young puppies.
> You did not ask for advice in this thread but you have in others.
> Your way just wouldn't happen here in Australia that is all......nothing more...nothing less...Good Luck
> 
> Oh and I am posting now cause I am 14hrs "behind" and have to catch up!!!!!


It wouldn't work in Germany either, but it's not Germany, it's not Australia, it's the US. Things go a _*liiiittttle *__*different *_over here. I've learned that quickly.


----------



## msvette2u

Jax08 said:


> Now that you have explained all that we can suggest a vest. See..that wasn't so hard...was it? :rofl:





Um. 



> As for the training, now that everyone has raised there blood pressure and you are the first to ask, No I am not the trainer of this dog!


I asked pages ago!

And what does your trainer say about him interacting with the public now (at his current age)?

Yes that would have ticked me off about someone pushing my dog's butt down but I would have simply stepped in front of my puppy, or pulled the puppy away (if I had to). And told them, "That is not how you teach a dog to SIT", then proceed to show them the right way.

I explain this very thing to adopters probably every single adoption. Or if they haven't pushed the dog's butt down I show them the right way and explain how dogs push away from being pushed, and it's pointless to push it's butt down.

See...if I went on here and just go "I need to know where to buy a muzzle" out of the blue, people are going to ask, "Why do you need a muzzle??" It's human nature. 
This is a public forum. We're all whack jobs with nothing else to do or we wouldn't be here 

(j/k - for the most part!) 

But we all love dogs. We want to help owners. 
So we're here 

PS. Yes it seems quite unorthodox for you to be raising your own potential police k9 which raised a ton of questions, and I'm glad you answered them. It is intriguing and perhaps if more departments could do this type thing, more police dogs could be trained and utilized. 
I know one thing...I'd rather see an LEO committed to training his pet the right way than just the guy who minds dogs the _least_ being chosen to be the handler!!


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

sparra said:


> Well I stand by what I said. I wasn't personally attacking you or questioning if you were indeed a police officer...simply questioning the way in which a potential police k-9 can be trained by a person who has admitted that he needs to brush up on his skills when it comes to handling young puppies.
> You did not ask for advice in this thread but you have in others.
> Your way just wouldn't happen here in Australia that is all......nothing more...nothing less...Good Luck
> 
> Oh and I am posting now cause I am 14hrs "behind" and have to catch up!!!!!


Not an attack, but I would like to direct you to about 3 popst up where I quoted msvette. Please read that post, pay special attention to the last line


----------



## sparra

Mrs.K said:


> It wouldn't work in Germany either, but it's not Germany, it's not Australia, it's the US. Things go a _*liiiittttle *__*different *_over here. I've learned that quickly.


Haha......


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

I should get a prize for starting a thread with so many post and veiws!!


----------



## mycobraracr

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> I should get a prize for starting a thread with so many post and veiws!!


Yeah you should. Lucky!


----------



## msvette2u

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> I should get a prize for starting a thread with so many post and veiws!!


Not even close...


----------



## onyx'girl

I just finally clicked on this thread/read thru it...SO this is the reason the rest of the board has been slow. I'm glad I wasn't involved in the ruckus


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## sparra

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> I should get a prize for starting a thread with so many post and veiws!!


LOL.....I have seen some 60 or more pages so you have a little way to go to win that prize......but this is a good effort!!!


----------



## Jax08

onyx'girl said:


> I just finally clicked on this thread/read thru it...SO this is the reason the rest of the board has been slow. I'm glad I wasn't involved in the ruckus


Crazy, isn't it?! lol


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

sparra said:


> LOL.....I have seen some 60 or more pages so you have a little way to go to win that prize......but this is a good effort!!!


Its not over! See, 5 replies on that one post alone!


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## Holmeshx2

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> *In exchange, I the owner of the dog, lease him to the city for $1.00 a year.*


NOW WE KNOW!!!! HA! I knew if we waited long enough you'd slip up, now we know how you afforded the 2K lamp on a police officers salary :crazy:


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## gewaltiger Sturm

Holmeshx2 said:


> NOW WE KNOW!!!! HA! I knew if we waited long enough you'd slip up, now we know how you afforded the 2K lamp on a police officers salary :crazy:


 Busted! I got a 2000 year advance!!:laugh::laugh:


----------



## vomlittlehaus

There was a recent article locally about an officer that had trained his own dog in (I am thinking Schutzhund but cant remember). He sold that dog to the department he was working for, for $1.00 (legalities and such). In the contract it stated if the dog could no longer perform his job, the officer would retain ownership. I dont understand the inside the box thinking some people have. That only one way, the way they have seen things done, is the way to do things.

This board needs to be shut down for a day so people can cool off and rethink about what they are posting.


----------



## gewaltiger Sturm

dawnandjr said:


> There was a recent article locally about an officer that had trained his own dog in (I am thinking Schutzhund but cant remember). He sold that dog to the department he was working for, for $1.00 (legalities and such). In the contract it stated if the dog could no longer perform his job, the officer would retain ownership. I dont understand the inside the box thinking some people have. That only one way, the way they have seen things done, is the way to do things.
> 
> This board needs to be shut down for a day so people can cool off and rethink about what they are posting.


Well said!!!


----------



## selzer

Since it was asked, the mistake that many novice GSD puppy owners make, when they want a dog specifically for guarding/protecting, is to keep it away from people, not allow any interaction with strangers when the dog is a puppy. 

The socialization period is 3-16 weeks or in and around that by most of the people who have studied canine behavior. If the dog is not socialized properly to different people, places, and things, then it will be much more difficult to socialize the puppy down the line. Not impossible, but much more difficult. What the OP said was that he did not want people petting his 12 week old puppy, because he wanted the puppy to be, for now, all about him. If he did this from 5-7 months, it would not be as big of a deal, but chances are good that the pup did not see a slew of people at the breeders. Breeeders are rightfully afraid of germs, parasites, bugs that can wipe out a litter. Not all of them spend weeks 3 through 7 acclimating the puppies to people, so taking some of the first eight weeks with the puppy to make the puppies focus be totally on you, well I think that would be both unnecessary, and create problems down the line.

Puppies may be trained differently for police work. Police officers I have known that trained their own dogs, say that they dog is allowed no toys at all, except one that is only used after training. No treats. And if the dog is chewing apart the walls, they do not correct it because the dog might have to do that down the line. I am not sure the people I talked to knew what they were doing either. But I can accept that a puppy being raised as a k9 might be treated somewhat differently. However, I would expect that you would want the puppy to know how to act around non-aggressive people to prevent any embarrassing incidents. 

So, if the OP said, I am raising my dog to protect my wife and kids while I am gone, so I do not want him to get used to strangers petting him. So I want to buy him a vest that says, DO NOT PET. What would the jist of most of the posts be? 

To Gewaltiger Sturm, if you really want info about raising, training a police dog, I think there is a section down below specific to working dogs, and maybe one specific to police dogs. I only land there by accident, as I go out of Active Topics, but I think that the same post might be managed different by the LEOs on the site.


----------



## mycobraracr

selzer said:


> Since it was asked, the mistake that many novice GSD puppy owners make, when they want a dog specifically for guarding/protecting, is to keep it away from people, not allow any interaction with strangers when the dog is a puppy.
> 
> The socialization period is 3-16 weeks or in and around that by most of the people who have studied canine behavior. If the dog is not socialized properly to different people, places, and things, then it will be much more difficult to socialize the puppy down the line. Not impossible, but much more difficult. What the OP said was that he did not want people petting his 12 week old puppy, because he wanted the puppy to be, for now, all about him. If he did this from 5-7 months, it would not be as big of a deal, but chances are good that the pup did not see a slew of people at the breeders. Breeeders are rightfully afraid of germs, parasites, bugs that can wipe out a litter. Not all of them spend weeks 3 through 7 acclimating the puppies to people, so taking some of the first eight weeks with the puppy to make the puppies focus be totally on you, well I think that would be both unnecessary, and create problems down the line.
> 
> Puppies may be trained differently for police work. Police officers I have known that trained their own dogs, say that they dog is allowed no toys at all, except one that is only used after training. No treats. And if the dog is chewing apart the walls, they do not correct it because the dog might have to do that down the line. I am not sure the people I talked to knew what they were doing either. But I can accept that a puppy being raised as a k9 might be treated somewhat differently. However, I would expect that you would want the puppy to know how to act around non-aggressive people to prevent any embarrassing incidents.
> 
> So, if the OP said, I am raising my dog to protect my wife and kids while I am gone, so I do not want him to get used to strangers petting him. So I want to buy him a vest that says, DO NOT PET. What would the jist of most of the posts be?
> 
> To Gewaltiger Sturm, if you really want info about raising, training a police dog, I think there is a section down below specific to working dogs, and maybe one specific to police dogs. I only land there by accident, as I go out of Active Topics, but I think that the same post might be managed different by the LEOs on the site.


 
I agree the dog should be socialized to many different places and around many different people. However letting everyone pet them is not needed. I have not/will not allow anyone to pet my dog. Every PPD and schutzhund dog I know was raised that same way. They are all very sweet and stable dogs. My dog has gone everywhere I have gone since the day I got her. I just don't want people touching her. She has a solid temperment and is friendly when I do allow people to touch her, but short of family that doesn't happen very often. 


All of us here have our dogs for different reasons and choose to raise them the best way we see fit. I don't expect everyone to agree. Thats just not human nature. However we should be understanding to the different training styles.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Jax08 said:


> Now that you have explained all that we can suggest a vest. See..that wasn't so hard...was it? :rofl:


That is hilarious  We should use the same structure of this post when other members who are relatively new make a post and then get flamed for no reason!

Maybe there could be a template...

Now that you have explained ____ we can suggest _____ Of course, add the appropriate emoticon (or humor) to make sure that others understand that the thread went way off-course and was full of assumptions that were not based in reality


----------



## Mrs.K

mycobraracr said:


> I agree the dog should be socialized to many different places and around many different people. However letting everyone pet them is not needed. I have not/will not allow anyone to pet my dog. Every PPD and schutzhund dog I know was raised that same way. They are all very sweet and stable dogs. My dog has gone everywhere I have gone since the day I got her. I just don't want people touching her. She has a solid temperment and is friendly when I do allow people to touch her, but short of family that doesn't happen very often.
> 
> 
> All of us here have our dogs for different reasons and choose to raise them the best way we see fit. I don't expect everyone to agree. Thats just not human nature. However we should be understanding to the different training styles.


EXACTLY!!!! Socializing a dog doesn't mean that they have to get head to head with other dogs or petted out the wazoo from other people. 

That has nothing to do with socializing and I wouldn't want anyone to touch my 12 week old dog either. 

When Indra was that age I took her everywhere with me, back in Germany. To malls, to Restaurants, into the bus, train, cabs, shopping mile etc. 

Nobody ever petted her without asking. In fact, nobody ever asked to pet her and nobody did pet her just because she was "cute". She is a very stable, loving dog that I can take anywhere without having to worry that she'd bite somebody. Even when they come from behind.


----------



## msvette2u

mycobraracr said:


> However we should be understanding to the different training styles.


Well not to be a wet blanket, but there's a lot of different between training your own pet and training a dog who will be expected to take down (and yes, even bite) a "bad guy" while leaving "good guys" and children without damage.


----------



## mycobraracr

msvette2u said:


> Well not to be a wet blanket, but there's a lot of different between training your own pet and training a dog who will be expected to take down (and yes, even bite) a "bad guy" while leaving "good guys" and children without damage.


 
True, but doesn't a PPD or a Schutzhund dog for that matter have to have the same type of temperment? They still interact in public.


----------



## msvette2u

Temperament is one thing, training and socialization is another.
But I'm no expert. But obviously neither is the OP, which is why I asked what his trainer says about ongoing socialization and if people should or shouldn't pet the puppy. 

Leerburg is a good site on some things but has pretty old-fashioned notions on others. 
(I only say that because the OP mentioned in another thread he was using that site for training ideas)


----------



## Mrs.K

That has been discussed out the wazoo whats expected of a German Shepherd and what isn't... 

And so what, if he's using it for training ideas. Everybody does. The day you stop learning is the day you should stop handling dogs.


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## msvette2u

That wasn't my point, Mrs. K.


----------



## mycobraracr

Mrs.K said:


> The day you stop learning is the day you should stop handling dogs.


 
Well I guess I should stop handling because, I know EVERYTHING . Yes that was a joke. A BIG joke haha


----------



## shepherdmom

Jax08 said:


> Now that you have explained all that we can suggest a vest. See..that wasn't so hard...was it? :rofl:


:spittingcoffee:


----------



## Miss Molly May

JakodaCD OA said:


> A good way to get a suspension is with some of the comments I've seen here, unfortunately I am not a mod of this forum.
> 
> With that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Masi is also modeling this on the Leerburg site
> Leerburg | Mesh K9 Vest


 I still think this would be the perfect vest for you and your pup!!!


----------



## Miss Molly May

Miss Molly May said:


> I still think this would be the perfect vest for you and your pup!!!


 
Oh and if I seen that adorable pup :wub: of yours anywhere I would not be able to control myself!!!! I would be on the ground petting, kissing and enjoying the puppy breath!!!:hugs:


----------



## shepherdmom

Holmeshx2 said:


> Really think people need to check their attitudes we all have our moments (we all know I have especially shepherdmom lol) but it's about being an adult and fixing things and not driving someone away since there is so much knowledge here for them but they can't find it when they are met with so much opposition even a saint would give up on this board sometimes.


I think a big part of the problem comes from the fact we are all very much sure out dogs are the best.  and if we raised such wonderful dogs our way must be right.  It is also really easy to read something that is not there into these posts and make assumptions that we really shouldn't. I'm glad Holmeshx2 talked me into sticking around.


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## Syaoransbear

Mrs.K said:


> EXACTLY!!!! Socializing a dog doesn't mean that they have to get head to head with other dogs or petted out the wazoo from other people.


Agreed. Socializing is just exposing your dog to things so that it is used to those things and isn't fearful of them. It doesn't need to include petting. No stranger has ever played with my dogs paws, checked out his teeth, or put their finger up his butt when he was a puppy, but a total stranger(like a vet) can do it no problem and it wouldn't result in aggression or nervousness. Exposure to strangers is far more important than physical contact with them.

These threads are funny where one person posts a simple question and they end up with 20 pages that don't answer their question.


----------



## selzer

I know that socialization does not mean that everyone needs to pet or interact with your dog. But, the post sounded like he wants the pup to be all about him, does not want the pup to get attention from others. All my dogs are all about me. They, none of them go running up to strangers for pets. They would be just as happy if everyone on earth died save me. They can be handled by a vet tech or a groomer, but they do not solicit pets, and in fact, they would rather not be petted by people they do not know.

They are like this without any help from me. I take them out as puppies, we go to classes, I let people pet them, and by the time they are adults, they are all about me. I shudder to think what my dogs would be like if I did something deliberately to make them aloof toward strangers. My guess is that I would have trouble at the vet's, and need to do all my grooming myself, and maybe I would have to be managing my dog around my house guests so that there was no accidents. 

As for the simple question, if you post the following:

I have a very shy, fearful dog who runs away when people walk toward us. I do not want her to run away. I need to get a prong collar so that she will stop this. Can you suggest a good prong collar?

Now I know a lot of people like prongs for just about anything BUT fearful, soft dogs. I this situation, I think it would not be a good use of a prong collar. Should we just point them to the nearest Herm Sprenger Dealer? Or should we suggest that this might not be the best course of action with the dog?

We have a lot of members on this site, and some are going to disagree with things. If people will post, not only what they want, but what they want it for, it is kind of an invitation to have a discussion about it.


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## Mrs.K

You are reading too much into it.


----------



## mycobraracr

selzer said:


> As for the simple question, if you post the following:
> 
> I have a very shy, fearful dog who runs away when people walk toward us. I do not want her to run away. I need to get a prong collar so that she will stop this. Can you suggest a good prong collar?
> 
> Now I know a lot of people like prongs for just about anything BUT fearful, soft dogs. I this situation, I think it would not be a good use of a prong collar. Should we just point them to the nearest Herm Sprenger Dealer? Or should we suggest that this might not be the best course of action with the dog?
> 
> We have a lot of members on this site, and some are going to disagree with things. If people will post, not only what they want, but what they want it for, it is kind of an invitation to have a discussion about it.


 
Given your example I agree with you. Well that situation any way As I stated befor, everyone here is coming from somewhere different and has their dogs for different reasons. Add in the fact that every dog is different and...... Well you can see what I am getting at. I try and look at posts this way. Everyone here has the BEST interest of the dog in mind. Not my best interest. I just think we can all go about things in a better way. Umm.... yeah thats about all I got at this point.


----------



## selzer

gewaltiger Sturm said:


> *For now, I want his full attention*. *I dont want him looking to strangers for enjoyment yet*. *Its part of his training*. *For right now, I am the center of his universe*.* I dont want him thinking everyone in the world wants to pet him*. Dont get me wrong. He gets his petting times but only when I allow it. Once his training is further along I will let up on the fact I dont want every joe tom and harry petting him. Kids on the other hand get to pet him but only after I ask them if they want to pet him and then he only gets his petting when he is calm and sitting beside me.
> 
> I guess I should have mentioned I am a police officer and this will soon be my partner.


I don't think I am reading too much into it. Considering the timing of the socialization period, I think that doing this with a 12 week old pup, and then catching up on socialization later, is kind of going about it backwards, and if a = b, that would be ok. But a does not = b in this instance.


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## msvette2u

There's owners on here with much more experience than most the folks on here, they have owned and bred GSDs for years and years, and I think to poo-poo their advice because it's not what you wanted is rather petty. Maybe it's not what you wanted to hear or know, but it's really want you _need_ to hear. 

Perhaps they have the best interest of the dogs _and _the general public's best in mind.


I've asked this probably 10 x now, but I will try again - 




> Originally Posted by gewaltiger Sturm
> For now, I want his full attention. I dont want him looking to strangers for enjoyment yet. Its part of his training. For right now, I am the center of his universe. I dont want him thinking everyone in the world wants to pet him.


Who came up with that idea of training, was it yourself, Sturm, or your police dog trainer? 
If it was you, what does your PD trainer say about that?

Honestly, our (11mos.) GSD is not even "in training", but he worships my 16yr. old who has been "his" person since the 1st night he slept in a crate in her room, he has figured she hung the moon. I don't care if 50 people walk up and pet him, he sees her as his world. It's "all about her", she's the "center of his universe", and he might enjoy seeing others, but that doesn't detract from his devotion for her. 
And he's a run off the mill stray off the street


----------



## mycobraracr

selzer said:


> I don't think I am reading too much into it. Considering the timing of the socialization period, I think that doing this with a 12 week old pup, and then catching up on socialization later, is kind of going about it backwards, and if a = b, that would be ok. But a does not = b in this instance.


Ok going to disagree with you again. The pup was being socialized. The puppy was in Lowes. Not at home in the house. I can already see this is just going around and around and not getting anywhere but I am working really hard to make the most posted on thread hahahaha


----------



## shepherdmom

msvette2u said:


> There's owners on here with much more experience than most the folks on here, they have owned and bred GSDs for years and years...


I need help please come over and give advise on the senior forum.


----------



## Syaoransbear

selzer said:


> I know that socialization does not mean that everyone needs to pet or interact with your dog. But, the post sounded like he wants the pup to be all about him, does not want the pup to get attention from others. All my dogs are all about me. They, none of them go running up to strangers for pets. They would be just as happy if everyone on earth died save me. They can be handled by a vet tech or a groomer, but they do not solicit pets, and in fact, they would rather not be petted by people they do not know.
> 
> They are like this without any help from me. I take them out as puppies, we go to classes, I let people pet them, and by the time they are adults, they are all about me. I shudder to think what my dogs would be like if I did something deliberately to make them aloof toward strangers. My guess is that I would have trouble at the vet's, and need to do all my grooming myself, and maybe I would have to be managing my dog around my house guests so that there was no accidents.
> 
> As for the simple question, if you post the following:
> 
> I have a very shy, fearful dog who runs away when people walk toward us. I do not want her to run away. I need to get a prong collar so that she will stop this. Can you suggest a good prong collar?
> 
> Now I know a lot of people like prongs for just about anything BUT fearful, soft dogs. I this situation, I think it would not be a good use of a prong collar. Should we just point them to the nearest Herm Sprenger Dealer? Or should we suggest that this might not be the best course of action with the dog?
> 
> We have a lot of members on this site, and some are going to disagree with things. If people will post, not only what they want, but what they want it for, it is kind of an invitation to have a discussion about it.


That depends. Is this fearful dog 100 pounds and will literally bolt in the other direction with the owner dragging behind and blowing in the wind? Then yeah, I'd put a prong on that dog so it didn't run away or injure the owner.

In this case I think all this speculation was a lot more unnecessary than someone wanting to put a prong on a fearful dog. Many people don't want strangers giving their dogs treats for the same reason as the OP doesn't want people petting, and no one makes a big deal about that.

I agree that when you say why you want something, it is probably an invitation for discussion over your reasons, but there were only like 3 or 4 actual shirt/vest suggestions for what the OP wanted and the rest was off-topic discussion over the reasons for the shirt. This thread would probably be better off being split into two threads, one with "don't pet me" suggestions and another about if it's necessary for pups to receive physical stimulation from strangers as part of socialization. If someone wanting a shirt or vest for their dog does a search on this forum, this thread wouldn't be that helpful for them.


----------



## msvette2u

I think the reason there was such ongoing discussion is that the OP seems very inexperienced with dogs in general and GSDs in particular, admitted he's not had a puppy for X amt. of years, wondered about humping and other basic puppy things, and then announced his newly acquired puppy is a police dog in training.

It just seemed quite incongruent and threw many of us for a loop.


----------



## VonKromeHaus

I exposed my puppies to a lot of outside stimuli but did not allow people to pet them. My dog, my choice! I want them to be friendly nad have good associations with people but I control those and the dog needs my ok before saying hi. 

Just the way I raise my puppies and they are both friendly confident outgoing dogs!

It is no wonder people leave here and never come back! 

OP- There is a great working dog forum that is pretty tough but you won't have to deal with all this hoopla over a vest. Also, they have PD trainers on there as well. A good member here to speak with is DFrost.


----------



## selzer

I guess my point is that I could not possibly steer someone toward a shirt or vest if I felt by what they posted, that it would not be a good idea. Then my Wa is disturbed. If I say, here is a nice selection, I am in my opinion helping someone do something that is not in the dog's best interest. If I say nothing at all, if we all say nothing at all, and a few people show him the way to shirts or vests, then we are agreeing with those who posted by remaining silent. The only alternative then is to give your opinion, which is what he does not want. 

If someone shows you a picture of the dog in the back of a pick up as you speed down the road, you can do one of three things. You can say what they want to hear, "cute dog"; you can say nothing; or you can say "are you mad??? That's not safe!"

It seems like people want us to be Stepford posters, and say things like, "how nice." When we see a picture of a dog playing with a bunch of balloons, or riding in the back of a pick up, or 7 weeks old on a scale in a pet store. We're not robots. We actually care about dogs.


----------



## Syaoransbear

selzer said:


> I guess my point is that I could not possibly steer someone toward a shirt or vest if I felt by what they posted, that it would not be a good idea. Then my Wa is disturbed. If I say, here is a nice selection, I am in my opinion helping someone do something that is not in the dog's best interest. If I say nothing at all, if we all say nothing at all, and a few people show him the way to shirts or vests, then we are agreeing with those who posted by remaining silent. The only alternative then is to give your opinion, which is what he does not want.
> 
> If someone shows you a picture of the dog in the back of a pick up as you speed down the road, you can do one of three things. You can say what they want to hear, "cute dog"; you can say nothing; or you can say "are you mad??? That's not safe!"
> 
> It seems like people want us to be Stepford posters, and say things like, "how nice." When we see a picture of a dog playing with a bunch of balloons, or riding in the back of a pick up, or 7 weeks old on a scale in a pet store. We're not robots. We actually care about dogs.


I guess I understand where you're coming from. I guess it's kind of like if someone made a thread that was like, "Does anyone know where I can get some good steel toed boots? My dog keeps biting through my shoes when I kick him!" Probably no one would recommend anything .


----------



## sparra

selzer said:


> If someone shows you a picture of the dog in the back of a pick up as you speed down the road, you can do one of three things. You can say what they want to hear, "cute dog"; you can say nothing; or you can say "are you mad??? That's not safe!"


Don't tell my dogs they can no longer ride in the back of the ute......they would be DEVASTATED!!!!!


----------



## Castlemaid

> I've asked this probably 10 x now, but I will try again -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by gewaltiger Sturm
> For now, I want his full attention. I dont want him looking to strangers for enjoyment yet. Its part of his training. For right now, I am the center of his universe. I dont want him thinking everyone in the world wants to pet him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who came up with that idea of training, was it yourself, Sturm, or your police dog trainer?
Click to expand...

This is actually a very common way of raising working dogs. This philosophy of limiting a puppy's interaction to teach it that the handler is the source of all positive attention is taught and used by a wide range of Schutzhund and police and other trainers, from guide dog raisers, to Leerburg to Michael Ellis. This is not something new. I'm surprised this philosophy is such a surprise to some? It's been around and used successfully for a very long time, as it does yield good results. It does not mean that the puppy is not socialized, just means that the pup learns to be neutral around strangers and other dogs.

Not sure why the question is harped on this much, the way it is presented borders on harassment, and I hope that this answer satisfies the asker, and will drop it now as how the OP raises a working dog is his business, as others have pointed out.


----------



## Mrs.K

selzer said:


> I don't think I am reading too much into it. Considering the timing of the socialization period, I think that doing this with a 12 week old pup, and then catching up on socialization later, is kind of going about it backwards, and if a = b, that would be ok. But a does not = b in this instance.


Okay, how do I say it without getting into trouble. 

In the past weeks you have shown that you don't know anything about training or working, working dogs. 

You are surprised that there is no dog fighting involved with Herding. You don't know why there is tracking in Schutzhund and now you don't know why the handler wants to have his puppies full attention. 

Like Castlemaid said, it's nothing new. It's what you want out of a dog. You ARE the center of the universe and nobody else but you should be interesting. 

I didn't want to say it, but honestly Selzer, you don't seem to know much about working dogs. If you did, you wouldn't have to ask the question why in the world he wants his puppies attention, you wouldn't have to wonder why there is tracking in Schutzhund and you wouldn't be surprised that there is no dog fighting in Herding. 

I'm quite baffled. And this is NOT a personal attack. It's an observation. So maybe you should back off a little from the poster.


----------



## JakodaCD OA

I agree with Lucia, that this is nothing new. 

In the end, the guy came here looking for a VEST (shirt whatever) NOT training or socializing tips. 

What "impact" does it have on anyone as to how he raises his puppy? It doesn't impact me at all so I guess I don't understand why some have to get on their "expert" high horse and push their 'expertness' on someone who hasn't asked for it.

There's a way to post an opinion without 'insisting' someone is messing up their pup for life.

What happened to my "IF you don't have something nice to say" link?


----------



## Mrs.K

JakodaCD OA said:


> I agree with Lucia, that this is nothing new.
> 
> In the end, the guy came here looking for a VEST (shirt whatever) NOT training or socializing tips.
> 
> What "impact" does it have on anyone as to how he raises his puppy? It doesn't impact me at all so I guess I don't understand why some have to get on their "expert" high horse and push their 'expertness' on someone who hasn't asked for it.
> 
> There's a way to post an opinion without 'insisting' someone is messing up their pup for life.
> 
> What happened to my "IF you don't have something nice to say" link?


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


----------



## msvette2u

Castlemaid said:


> This is actually a very common way of raising working dogs. This philosophy of limiting a puppy's interaction to teach it that the handler is the source of all positive attention is taught and used by a wide range of Schutzhund and police and other trainers, from guide dog raisers, to Leerburg to Michael Ellis. This is not something new. I'm surprised this philosophy is such a surprise to some?


It's not a surprise to me necessarily but thank you for the reply!

I wondered, because (IMO) it happens naturally. I did not realize it had to be 'taught' because (again, IMO, and IME) it happens anyway with the dogs we've owned, and they aren't working dogs, they are merely pets. But I've seen with every GSD we've had, they do think of their owners that way anyway, and it's a breed trait to be aloof but I would not force that upon a puppy because they grow into it naturally.

To a casual observer such as myself it seems you are trying to enforce something which is already a breed trait. 

Selzer's point was the same, essentially, her dogs became that way just by being her pet/her dog, as did my own. 

Perhaps it's material for another thread but why are working prospects treated as though they are going to be outgoing and friendly to everyone their whole lives? Is there really a fear of that happening?


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## Castlemaid

If you were familiar with the training philosophy, and knew where it originated from, then the continuous pointed questioning of the OP over it seems to be harassment. 

There are differences in how one raises a working prospect vs. how one raises a working dog, natural GSD aloofness and all.


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## RocketDog

Genetics have so much to say about friendliness/aloofness also. 

I rather wish I'd done more neutrality work when Rocket was younger. He thinks he's the Emcee of everywhere he goes now.


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## GregK

Castlemaid said:


> If you were familiar with the training philosophy, and knew where it originated from, then the continuous pointed questioning of the OP over it seems to be harassment.


Yeah, msvette2u's a stalker.


oke:


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## msvette2u

RocketDog said:


> Genetics have so much to say about friendliness/aloofness also.
> 
> I rather wish I'd done more neutrality work when Rocket was younger. He thinks he's the Emcee of everywhere he goes now.


But he's still a puppy! I don't think the boys get their adult brains until, what, 18smo.-2yrs? 

Castle, I'm _not_ familiar with that training philosophy, I am genuinely curious about what it entails.


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## msvette2u

GregK said:


> Yeah, msvette2u's a stalker.
> 
> 
> oke:



Just call me trouble 

:angel:


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## Betty

selzer said:


> Now wait just a minute Mr. PoliceMan. Do you knock on someone's door and say, "Open Up Police!" in plain clothes, and expect people to just open their door, or do you expect to show some proof.
> 
> This is the internet. Any Tom, Debbie, or Harry can SAY they are a police officer, a breeder, a veterinarian, or a lawyer, should we just believe them all? Especially when they explain something that goes against everything that has been taught, written, discussed about raising a puppy? So if I said, "Look, I'm a vet, and I know that if I feed my puppy nothing but macaroni noodles, he will be just fine" we should not call them on it?
> 
> If you want to go, go. We are nasty, we are mean, we see someone brand new to the site, making a giant mistake with their puppy, and we are not supposed to say boo about it because he claims to be a police officer. If that is the kind of site you want, then you are in the wrong place. We actually care about dogs and puppies.
> 
> Maybe you are, maybe you are not really a police officer, if you are, I would expect you to expect us to not take everything people say at face value. Like in our area, our departments are under-funded and police officers cannot afford a $2000 filter for a fish tank, but whatever. Some of our guys do train their own dogs, generally they buy green dogs, not puppies. Green dogs cost more than puppies, but are much less likely to wash.


You may be right about most of your local police not being paid enough in your area that they are able to indulge themselves in a hobby. But then again how many people in your area that's been unemployed for a while can afford to import a titled bitch?

We find money to spend on what we want.


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## Betty

This thread has amazed me.


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## Mrs.K

Betty said:


> You may be right about most of your local police not being paid enough in your area that they are able to indulge themselves in a hobby. But then again how many people in your area that's been unemployed for a while can afford to import a titled bitch?
> 
> * We find money to spend on what we want.*




:thumbup:


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## VonKromeHaus

Betty said:


> This thread has amazed me.


I have beenn seeing this happen more and more here. It sucks. I liked coming here for training tips and learning things etc. Now it just feels like any other old board that lets members harass others over stupid stuff!! 

I use that method raising a puppy cause I want to be their WHOLE WORLD! Nothing else fazes them or distracts them...obviously they are puppies and go through phases but that is the point of using this method. WIth my current puppy..Non-GSD...people can run, scream and dance around her and her eyes are glued on ME! That is what a lot of people that actually DO stuff with their dogs want. Undivided attention from them. 

Training a pet is completely differnet from training a working prospect or dog, IME and I have EXPERIENCE RAISING BOTH. I have never seen a pet dog give their undivided attention(with NO training) to their owner no matter the environment or distractions....eventually the dog gets distracted!


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## DJEtzel

VonKromeHaus said:


> I have beenn seeing this happen more and more here. It sucks. I liked coming here for training tips and learning things etc. Now it just feels like any other old board that lets members harass others over stupid stuff!!
> 
> I use that method raising a puppy cause I want to be their WHOLE WORLD! Nothing else fazes them or distracts them...obviously they are puppies and go through phases but that is the point of using this method. WIth my current puppy..Non-GSD...people can run, scream and dance around her and her eyes are glued on ME! That is what a lot of people that actually DO stuff with their dogs want. Undivided attention from them.
> 
> Training a pet is completely differnet from training a working prospect or dog, IME and I have EXPERIENCE RAISING BOTH. I have never seen a pet dog give their undivided attention(with NO training) to their owner no matter the environment or distractions....eventually the dog gets distracted!


I think the point people are making, is that this is not the only way to get undividied attention from a dog and be it's whole world, and could backfire terribly since you AREN'T socializing the dog to people or other dogs. He might not be reactive because he's desensitized to the motions, but what is he going to do when someone runs up and pets him? 

MY dog, was socialized extensively with both people and dogs from a very young age to make sure he'd be safe with them, and I bonded with him and trained him to where I'm the only thing that matters and he WILL give me his undivided attention in the middle of a dog event or dog park with no trouble. 

That's the point the non-working people are saying. Why do it and risk unsocialization when you could just socialize AND train to have a stable dog?


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## msvette2u

DJEtzel said:


> I think the point people are making, is that this is not the only way to get undividied attention from a dog and be it's whole world, and could backfire terribly since you AREN'T socializing the dog to people or other dogs. He might not be reactive because he's desensitized to the motions, but what is he going to do when someone runs up and pets him?
> 
> MY dog, was socialized extensively with both people and dogs from a very young age to make sure he'd be safe with them, and I bonded with him and trained him to where I'm the only thing that matters and he WILL give me his undivided attention in the middle of a dog event or dog park with no trouble.
> 
> That's the point the non-working people are saying. Why do it and risk unsocialization when you could just socialize AND train to have a stable dog?


This.

Don't overlook the fact that there's so many out there who _think_ they know what they are doing but can't even manage to get titles on their dogs so they _aren't_ doing it right, no matter what they say. It can and does backfire.


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## Mrs.K

Oh good grief... somebody give me a break...

This topic is exactly the reason why more and more working dog people won't answer anymore and why more and more people keep sitting on their hands.


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## Courtney

But I think the OP *IS* socializing the pup to people & other dogs. They are part of the dogs surroundings they are just not touching the puppy.


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## mycobraracr

Mrs.K said:


> Oh good grief... somebody give me a break...
> 
> This topic is exactly the reason why more and more working dog people won't answer anymore and why more and more people keep sitting on their hands.


Like:thumbup:


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## Lakl

RocketDog said:


> Genetics have so much to say about friendliness/aloofness also.
> 
> I rather wish I'd done more neutrality work when Rocket was younger. He thinks he's the Emcee of everywhere he goes now.


Me too! As part of the "socialization" process, I let every and anyone pet Achilles as a young pup, and now he LOVES everyone. He's just a pet, but I would still rather him not be so trusting of everyone we came across and display more aloofness to strangers. I am STILL the center of his universe, but everyone else is happy little stars floating around him. 

I totally get the OP's stance, especially for a working dog. What I don't get is all the back and forth on the topic. It has been an interesting read this morning, though, and I'm finding it hard to concentrate at work without coming back to check this thread!


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## wyominggrandma

Mrs.K said:


> Oh good grief... somebody give me a break...
> 
> This topic is exactly the reason why more and more working dog people won't answer anymore and why more and more people keep sitting on their hands.


:thumbup:


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## DJEtzel

Courtney said:


> But I think the OP *IS* socializing the pup to people & other dogs. They are part of the dogs surroundings they are just not touching the puppy.


How is that socializing? The puppy has no idea what a strange human coming at him with their hand out means, so when he's a year old what is he going to do when someone runs up and the owner can't intervene first? Bite? lunge? We have no idea because the dog hasn't been taught how to properly interact with strange people.

Oh, well there's kids. That's great. What about the 6' 7" man in sunglasses?


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## DJEtzel

Lakl said:


> Me too! As part of the "socialization" process, I let every and anyone pet Achilles as a young pup, and now he LOVES everyone. He's just a pet, but I would still rather him not be so trusting of everyone we came across and display more aloofness to strangers. I am STILL the center of his universe, but everyone else is happy little stars floating around him.


He doesn't love everyone because you socialized him. He loves everyone because that is his genetic personality, just like a lab's. My GSD met hundreds and hundreds of people in his first 6 months of life, and now he can barely tolerate being pet for 30 seconds.


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## Lakl

DJEtzel said:


> Oh, well there's kids. That's great. What about the 6' 7" man in sunglasses?


You mean another police officer?? I think he'll be okay. Haha! Sorry, just had to throw that in there. Goin back to my ...opcorn:


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## Lakl

DJEtzel said:


> He doesn't love everyone because you socialized him. He loves everyone because that is his genetic personality, just like a lab's. My GSD met hundreds and hundreds of people in his first 6 months of life, and now he can barely tolerate being pet for 30 seconds.


So you're saying if I hadn't socialized him he would still love everyone??


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## Jax08

Why are people who don't have a working dog and have never raised a working dog arguing with the people who have raised, trained and titled working dogs in how to raise a working dog?

How interesting....

And why are so many people having reading comprehension problems in this thread?


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## Mrs.K

Jax08 said:


> Why are people who don't have a working dog and have never raised a working dog arguing with the people who have raised, trained and titled working dogs in how to raise a working dog?
> 
> How interesting....
> 
> And why are so many people having reading comprehension problems in this thread?


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:


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## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> Why are people who don't have a working dog and have never raised a working dog arguing with the people who have raised, trained and titled working dogs in how to raise a working dog?
> 
> How interesting....
> 
> And why are so many people having reading comprehension problems in this thread?


Because they're all dogs. Doesn't matter WHAT you're doing with them, as a general rule, when you do certain things and raise dogs a certain way, they act a certain way. A working dog is not a different species that trains and reacts differently to stimuli. I think THAT'S what working dog people don't get.


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## Jax08

DJEtzel said:


> Because they're all dogs. Doesn't matter WHAT you're doing with them, as a general rule, when you do certain things and raise dogs a certain way, they act a certain way.* A working dog is not a different species that trains and reacts differently to stimuli.* *I think THAT'S what working dog people don't get*.


:rofl: Ok


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## Mrs.K

DJEtzel said:


> Because they're all dogs. Doesn't matter WHAT you're doing with them, as a general rule, when you do certain things and raise dogs a certain way, they act a certain way. A working dog is not a different species that trains and reacts differently to stimuli. I think THAT'S what working dog people don't get.


Then tell my Etzel, how many incidents have you heard of that involved a Schutzhund, Tracking, Trailing, SAR dog?


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## Courtney

DJEtzel said:


> How is that socializing? The puppy has no idea what a strange human coming at him with their hand out means, so when he's a year old what is he going to do when someone runs up and the owner can't intervene first? Bite? lunge? We have no idea because the dog hasn't been taught how to properly interact with strange people.
> 
> Oh, well there's kids. That's great. What about the 6' 7" man in sunglasses?


 
To me this is socializing...your way is different than mine...no biggie.
I don't think a 6'7" man is strange, my dog doesn't either. He has seen "strange people" but he doesn't need them to drool on him to be ok in life.


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## DJEtzel

Mrs.K said:


> Then tell my Etzel, how many incidents have you heard of that involved a Schutzhund, Tracking, Trailing, SAR dog?


Incidents of what? Dogs biting camera men, dogs lunging and passerbys? More than one, unfortunately. I watched an animal planet documentary on police dogs, where a LEO was encouraging his 8 mo old partner in training to lunge at passersby on the subway aggressively. That's the kind of training you encourage? I guess I'm GLAD I don't have a working dog then, because there's no way I could get behind that.

I also remember an LEO's dog going missing from Alpena MI last year or the year before, because he blew his recall on a search? These dogs are NOT always trained well or correctly.


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## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> :rofl: Ok


Your attitude isn't helping. You're not better than anyone else because you have a dog that does Schutzhund, SAR, or anything else.


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## msvette2u

Mrs.K said:


> Then tell my Etzel, how many incidents have you heard of that involved a Schutzhund, Tracking, Trailing, SAR dog?


Is that due to under/over socializing or just that their handlers are more attentive?
Because ---

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclie...f.,cf.osb&fp=a965486bfdfd71be&biw=947&bih=452

(just one of the stories -- http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/125785888.html )


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## Jax08

DJEtzel said:


> Your attitude isn't helping. You're not better than anyone else because you have a dog that does Schutzhund, SAR, or anything else.


There are so many assumptions in this thread and you are adding to it, so you certainly aren't helping either. If you can find where I have a dog in Schutzhund, SAR or anything else, please let me know. I'd be interested to hear what I'm involved in.

Have you ever even seen Schutzhund? Met any of the dogs? Seen any training?

Second, go back and read what the OP wrote. Strangers are interacting with his dog. He is taking his dog places and socializing.

Third, you are contradicting yourself. Is it socializing or is it genetics that make a dog love everyone?

And last, attacking me in a personal way, does not help prove your case.


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## Gwenhwyfair

Has the OP been read his Miranda rights yet? 



ALL I want to know....and have been following this thread so closely, holding my breath....


is.....


*Sturm which vest did you decide on?*  The leerburg mesh one is nice but I posted a nice one too. Would either work for a puppy as it grows, they are adjustable to a point.....


Oh and glad you decided to come back. 

Love the saltwater tank too! It's a beauty. I've only had freshwater (south american species tank).







msvette2u said:


> <snipped>
> 
> I've asked this probably 10 x now, but I will try again -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who came up with that idea of training, was it yourself, Sturm, or your police dog trainer?
> If it was you, what does your PD trainer say about that?
> 
> Honestly, our (11mos.) GSD is not even "in training", but he worships my 16yr. old who has been "his" person since the 1st night he slept in a crate in her room, he has figured she hung the moon. I don't care if 50 people walk up and pet him, he sees her as his world. It's "all about her", she's the "center of his universe", and he might enjoy seeing others, but that doesn't detract from his devotion for her.
> And he's a run off the mill stray off the street


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## mycobraracr

I would love to keep reading but I have to take my unsocialized dog (even though my dog has been exposed to more things than a lot humans on this forum have) out for a training session. I can't wait to tell the trainer who has been training military, police, schutzhund and personel protection dogs for the last 25 years that she has been doing it all wrong.


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## DJEtzel

Jax08 said:


> There are so many assumptions in this thread and you are adding to it, so you certainly aren't helping either. If you can find where I have a dog in Schutzhund, SAR or anything else, please let me know. I'd be interested to hear what I'm involved in.
> 
> Have you ever even seen Schutzhund? Met any of the dogs? Seen any training?
> 
> Second, go back and read what the OP wrote. Strangers are interacting with his dog. He is taking his dog places and socializing.
> 
> Third, you are contradicting yourself. Is it socializing or is it genetics that make a dog love everyone?
> 
> And last, attacking me in a personal way, does not help prove your case.


That was a general you, I have no reason to believe anything about you.

I HAVE seen Schutzhund, and I have met dogs. I've not attended any training, but I've watched tons of Schutzhund videos. 

I'm not talking about the OP here. I'm talking about every other poster in this thread that says that strangers never touch their puppy. 

I'm not contradicting myself at all. Fear and aggression manifest when a dog isn't desensitized to interactions from a young age. That said, just because you socialize a dog, doesn't mean it's going to love people or hate them, his well-rounded, stable personality is going to decide that. 

I didn't attack you at all. Laughing in someone's face is rude and I called you out on it.


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## Betty

How do you know that the dog is not being socialized to other people and dogs? Some people prefer to do it under controlled circumstances.

A dog being socialized does not mean that people have to pet him all the time.

Not having strangers run up and pet your dog all the time is not going to make a stable dog unstable.

A lot of my puppy and young dog socialization to other people and dogs are done in my home and on the training field. Trips to town are often trips to expose them to different environments and lessons to teach them to concentrate on me regardless of distractions.

10 minutes later or 10 minutes earlier he might of asked someone to pet his dog.


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## Betty

DJEtzel said:


> How is that socializing? The puppy has no idea what a strange human coming at him with their hand out means, so when he's a year old what is he going to do when someone runs up and the owner can't intervene first? Bite? lunge? We have no idea because the dog hasn't been taught how to properly interact with strange people.
> 
> Oh, well there's kids. That's great. What about the 6' 7" man in sunglasses?


Umm, How many times does your dog have to be approached in order to view a harmless person as, well harmless?


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## DJEtzel

mycobraracr said:


> I would love to keep reading but I have to take my unsocialized dog (even though my dog has been exposed to more things than a lot humans on this forum have) out for a training session. I can't wait to tell the trainer who has been training military, police, schutzhund and personel protection dogs for the last 25 years that she has been doing it all wrong.


Obviously a lot HAVE been doing it all wrong, if you pay attention to the news or read the links provided. They are not the gods of trainers in any respect.


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## Betty

DJEtzel said:


> Incidents of what? Dogs biting camera men, dogs lunging and passerbys? More than one, unfortunately. I watched an animal planet documentary on police dogs, where a LEO was encouraging his 8 mo old partner in training to lunge at passersby on the subway aggressively. That's the kind of training you encourage? I guess I'm GLAD I don't have a working dog then, because there's no way I could get behind that.
> 
> I also remember an LEO's dog going missing from Alpena MI last year or the year before, because he blew his recall on a search? These dogs are NOT always trained well or correctly.


Where the heck are you getting even the ghost of the idea that anyone is encouraging a dog to lunge at passerby's in this thread? 

Ok, and a dog blew a recall. What is your point? That they aren't robots?


----------



## DJEtzel

Betty said:


> Where the heck are you getting even the ghost of the idea that anyone is encouraging a dog to lunge at passerby's in this thread?
> 
> Ok, and a dog blew a recall. What is your point? That they aren't robots?


Never said any of that. If you look at my quoted message, someone asked what incidents I had heard of regarding these dogs. Please pay attention and stop putting words in my mouth.


----------



## mysweetkaos

Betty said:


> How do you know that the dog is not being socialized to other people and dogs? Some people prefer to do it under controlled circumstances.
> 
> A dog being socialized does not mean that people have to pet him all the time.
> 
> Not having strangers run up and pet your dog all the time is not going to make a stable dog unstable.
> 
> A lot of my puppy and young dog socialization to other people and dogs are done in my home and on the training field. Trips to town are often trips to expose them to different environments and lessons to teach them to concentrate on me regardless of distractions.
> 
> 10 minutes later or 10 minutes earlier he might of asked someone to pet his dog.


:thumbup:
I will admit first off I don't know a thing about training a "working" dog. Our dogs are trained for what works in our house. I let K socialize and I let S socialize, in controlled circumstances, when I say they can. I too ordered a vest for S that said "ask to pet". It's not that I don't want them to be ok with strangers, but I believe they need to learn. What they need to learn is, you can be ok with strangers that aren't fawning all over you. You can sit nicely and quietly until I say you can be petted.

K has grown and matured to a point he prefers strangers don't touch him, but I believe no matter what I did or didn't do...that is his personality. With S I enforce that rule even more when we take him out places (which is often). For me, I believe that strangers often allow a lot of rude behavior, that I am not ok with. We had a few instances when S was smaller where people would ask to pet, he would get all spazzy, climbing and licking. I would verbally correct him and they would say "no it's ok". Well it's not ok with me....hence the need for attention when I say it's ok, and when it's not. I have no problem with people petting him, but he needs to know, it's on my terms.

Anyway this has gone far offtrack from the OP's original post. To the OP I hope you found a vest that will work.


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## Chris Wild

This is just getting beyond ridiculous. If people want to discuss different theories of socialization, they can start a new thread. Hopefully one that would be educational and perhaps involve a healthy exchange of ideas *without* all the personal nastiness, ignorant assumptions and holier than thou attitudes that are being thrown around in this one. 

This thread is getting closed.

-Admin


----------

