# Fama, the Retired Military Bomb Dog!



## Sunflowers

Since I am sure Fama has many fans here, I have decided to start her own thread. 

It is very gratifying to us to see one of these wonderful dogs, retired and living the good life with her handler! 

Hope to see many more like her on here. In the meantime, I am starting a place for David Winners to update us on the new and gentler adventures of Fama, the (Retired) and no longer hole Bomb dog!

For those who do not know, here is the original story:
http://tinyurl.com/pf6l8qd



David Winners said:


> I took some this morning just for you
> 
> Did a little detection and OB before working on her OUT with the ball (she is a little sticky. I think we fixed it this morning)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a pic of my office in it's current state of disarray... got to get busy LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a vid of her and Lu playing. They are becoming pretty good buds.
> 
> Pam tried to say "time out" to get them to settle for a second while she goes past, but they don't know what that means LOL.It's taken a while for Lu to trust her. He's never been intimidated by a dog before, and it was a real shocker to him when Fama came in and took over. He was constantly a bit defensive with her, and the second she got a little too rough, he would snark back and get defensive.
> 
> We just watched their interactions carefully and intervened before anything got serious. Through time and guidance their bond is getting pretty strong. Fama even rolls over with him; something I have never seen her do with people, let alone another dog.
> 
> It's been cool to watch their relationship change.


----------



## Sunflowers

:wild:


David Winners said:


> Headed out with Fama to do some shopping for supplies for my grill project. We went into Lowe's, Home Depot and Ace Hardware. I had her on a prong and she was sporting her " Do Not Pet " collar.
> 
> What really surprised me was that she was totally off duty. She no longer walks around waiting for someone to give her a reason to fight. She was totally laid back. We had a good time and she got to meet and greet a couple dozen people. She was perfect, even rubbing up against one lady like a cat.
> 
> The checkout girl at Ace wanted a picture so I had Fama jump up on the counter and sit. The girl threw her arm around Fama's shoulders and they smiled for the shot. Pretty cool.
> 
> I think she's really digging retirement
> 
> David Winners


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

Great thread. Have a wonderful retirement Fama girl.


----------



## Sunflowers

Fama and David at work:


----------



## Sunflowers

Here is the thread with the story on getting Fama out of the military and home with her handler:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/stories/430969-fama-next-chapter.html


----------



## DutchKarin

I was hoping someone would do this. Thank you Sunflowers!

David, what is the greatest challenge working Fama into the retired life? Greatest for you? Greatest for her?


----------



## Sunflowers

And more of the two of them at work.... just because it is so hard to choose!


----------



## Courtney

I get teary eyed looking at these pictures because these dogs have been and continue to be SO imperative to the mission. Most US citizens will never know the value.

Also, let me be clear - the bad guys do not want to come in contact with our "fur missiles" 

Fama (pretty girl), you served your country proud.


----------



## Shade

A tribute thread is exactly what was needed


----------



## scout172

Shade said:


> A tribute thread is exactly what was needed


Exactly what I was going to say.


----------



## David Winners

Thanks Sunflowers!!

Fama is doing absolutely GREAT!! She is finding her spot in the family and happily filling it. She is content to hang out lazily, playing with Lu once in a while, or to go and train all day. I've been super busy getting the house and yard in order, plus starting the new job, so there have been days where she isn't busy working or training at all, and she does just fine. Pam helps out keeping her occupied with play and OB throughout the day too.

Karin, I think the biggest challenge for me has been to balance treating her like a working dog and allowing her to be a pet. All the things you do to keep them on point in the work don't matter so much anymore, so I had to change how I look at her daily life and not automatically handle situations like I would if she was still working. She gets toys now. She's not allowed to counter surf. She's not allowed to just go wherever she pleases off leash. She can't interact with the world in the same way, so I have to show her the new rules while being fair and understanding. 

The biggest challenge for her, though there really haven't been any real challenges, is that she can't go with me everywhere I go. Before, if I walked out the door, she walked out with me. She literally went everywhere that I went except to the chow hall. For a solid year, every time I opened the door, she would run out and turn to see where we were going. She spent the first couple days trying to door dash, and then the next couple weeks laying against the door waiting for me to come back, even if it was 4-5 hours. She now understands the deal and will go relax somewhere or hang out with Pam when I'm gone.

Pam and I were talking about this last night. It honestly couldn't have gone any better. Fama is behaving like the perfect pet. She's completely at ease in the house with the family and any visitors we have. She is happy to relax and play around the house or to go for a run or do detection work. She has only chewed up one thing, a piece of CAT5 cable that was laying under her Kong, and hasn't had a housetraining accident. The neighbors love her. She enjoys heading out to run errands and is satisfied hanging out in the truck or going in and shopping with me. She is confident and relaxed.

It's really amazing to see her so happy and healthy. I sometimes just watch her from my chair and get tears in my eyes. Everything she has been through, from training to deployment to injuries and 13 different handlers, and now she's home with daddy. I don't know how many lives she saved, but it's a lot. To see her without a care in the world except having fun and eating dinner is just overwhelming when I think about it. She brings so much to my life.

You made it girl! 










Yeah, she's a little spoiled now, and that's the way it should be 

... yes, I make her bed every night LOL


----------



## DutchKarin

Boy that just made me cry! Coolest story. And so happy for this new chapter for Fama.
Hats off to you, Pam and Fama.... and Lu of course.

It is interesting to me that this is not the only story of a military dog being able to adjust so well to a new life. I think of the recent Nat Geo video of the three legged malinois just blending into the handlers family. 

Very cool that is all I have to say!


----------



## David Winners

I just got a PM asking me to explain part of my signature:



> When a dog saves the life of a man, it becomes clear that partnership knows no bounds.


When I was trying to come up with something clever for a sig line I went through my favorite quotes, from Rush lyrics to Teddy Roosevelt, and nothing seemed to feel right. I started thinking about my dogs over the years and what they meant to me. I have had some cool dogs (and I still need to reply to that thread some day) and I spent quite some time sifting through memories and what they each meant to me. I was doing this chronologically in my head, and when I got to Fama I realized that the feelings I had for her were stronger, and much different, than the feelings I have for my other dogs. This led me to try and understand why?

Just as battle creates brothers out of soldiers that didn't know each other 3 months ago, the hardship of war forged a great bond between Fama and I. We lived in terrible conditions sometimes, ate bad food, worked in the heat and cold and bad weather, were deprived of sleep and safety and friends. We tackled the mission together. Fama was always an equal partner in the work. I can't smell bombs and she can't fire a weapon. Amazingly enough, I believe she understood this as well as I did.

There came a certain day, in a certain village, on a certain mission, when Fama undoubtedly saved my life. She bit a guy in the face who was about to shoot me from behind. I didn't even know he was there. When all the commotion was over, she came to check on me, ears back, kissing me on the face. Then she curled up next to me on the ground and resumed guard.

At that moment, I knew I had a partner in life that went far beyond a dog wanting a reward. 

We spent 3 hours behind a rock one time, taking heavy machinegun fire from a fighting position on a hill. The rest of the platoon was pinned down 150 meters behind us. We shared a bottle of water and a bag of beef jerky. Everything was OK because we both had 10 fingers and 10 toes, and we were together.

So I guess what that quote really means is that there is more to my relationship with my dog than a bowl of food and a scratch behind the ear. We are in life together, and though I don't really know what all that entails, I know that it means I am never alone as long as I have my dog, no matter what.


----------



## LaRen616

David Winners said:


> I just got a PM asking me to explain part of my signature:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was trying to come up with something clever for a sig line I went through my favorite quotes, from Rush lyrics to Teddy Roosevelt, and nothing seemed to feel right. I started thinking about my dogs over the years and what they meant to me. I have had some cool dogs (and I still need to reply to that thread some day) and I spent quite some time sifting through memories and what they each meant to me. I was doing this chronologically in my head, and when I got to Fama I realized that the feelings I had for her were stronger, and much different, than the feelings I have for my other dogs. This led me to try and understand why?
> 
> Just as battle creates brothers out of soldiers that didn't know each other 3 months ago, the hardship of war forged a great bond between Fama and I. We lived in terrible conditions sometimes, ate bad food, worked in the heat and cold and bad weather, were deprived of sleep and safety and friends. We tackled the mission together. Fama was always an equal partner in the work. I can't smell bombs and she can't fire a weapon. Amazingly enough, I believe she understood this as well as I did.
> 
> There came a certain day, in a certain village, on a certain mission, when Fama undoubtedly saved my life. She bit a guy in the face who was about to shoot me from behind. I didn't even know he was there. When all the commotion was over, she came to check on me, ears back, kissing me on the face. Then she curled up next to me on the ground and resumed guard.
> 
> At that moment, I knew I had a partner in life that went far beyond a dog wanting a reward.
> 
> We spent 3 hours behind a rock one time, taking heavy machinegun fire from a fighting position on a hill. The rest of the platoon was pinned down 150 meters behind us. We shared a bottle of water and a bag of beef jerky. Everything was OK because we both had 10 fingers and 10 toes, and we were together.
> 
> So I guess what that quote really means is that there is more to my relationship with my dog than a bowl of food and a scratch behind the ear. We are in life together, and though I don't really know what all that entails, I know that it means I am never alone as long as I have my dog, no matter what.


I am not a sappy person at all, but this whole thread nearly brought me to tears, especially this post. I love this. :wub:


----------



## Nikitta

What a wonderful story. I'm so glad you and Fama survived. You have something that many people will never experience; a deep bond with another living creature. Thank you for giving her a much deserved forever home but after reading this post, I see there was no danger of her losing that. And thank you and Fama for your wonderful service to keep out country safe.


----------



## Mister C

David Winners said:


> I just got a PM asking me to explain part of my signature:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was trying to come up with something clever for a sig line I went through my favorite quotes, from Rush lyrics to Teddy Roosevelt, and nothing seemed to feel right. I started thinking about my dogs over the years and what they meant to me. I have had some cool dogs (and I still need to reply to that thread some day) and I spent quite some time sifting through memories and what they each meant to me. I was doing this chronologically in my head, and when I got to Fama I realized that the feelings I had for her were stronger, and much different, than the feelings I have for my other dogs. This led me to try and understand why?
> 
> Just as battle creates brothers out of soldiers that didn't know each other 3 months ago, the hardship of war forged a great bond between Fama and I. We lived in terrible conditions sometimes, ate bad food, worked in the heat and cold and bad weather, were deprived of sleep and safety and friends. We tackled the mission together. Fama was always an equal partner in the work. I can't smell bombs and she can't fire a weapon. Amazingly enough, I believe she understood this as well as I did.
> 
> There came a certain day, in a certain village, on a certain mission, when Fama undoubtedly saved my life. She bit a guy in the face who was about to shoot me from behind. I didn't even know he was there. When all the commotion was over, she came to check on me, ears back, kissing me on the face. Then she curled up next to me on the ground and resumed guard.
> 
> At that moment, I knew I had a partner in life that went far beyond a dog wanting a reward.
> 
> We spent 3 hours behind a rock one time, taking heavy machinegun fire from a fighting position on a hill. The rest of the platoon was pinned down 150 meters behind us. We shared a bottle of water and a bag of beef jerky. Everything was OK because we both had 10 fingers and 10 toes, and we were together.
> 
> So I guess what that quote really means is that there is more to my relationship with my dog than a bowl of food and a scratch behind the ear. We are in life together, and though I don't really know what all that entails, I know that it means I am never alone as long as I have my dog, no matter what.


Thank you very much Mr. Winners. I thought there was a story behind your signature. It's a very interesting story and I appreciate you sharing it with us. Having such a deep bond with a dog is a very special thing.

All the best,

Michael


----------



## Sunflowers

She saved your life. 
Wow. 
Guess I am not the only one who keeps getting moved to tears by this story. 








A GSD is so much more than a dog, but the ones who work in the military take it to a whole other level. 
I didn't know she has had so many handlers. That is mind boggling. They got as much out of her as they could. Thank heavens all she lost was her tail. 

Thank you again, and special snout kisses to Fama. It just goes to show how wonderful and intuitive and intelligent these dogs are, that she was able to go into family mode and adapt so well, after having to be a war dog. 
Although I do feel bad for her, that she sometimes gets left behind


----------



## robk

David Winners said:


> I just got a PM asking me to explain part of my signature:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was trying to come up with something clever for a sig line I went through my favorite quotes, from Rush lyrics to Teddy Roosevelt, and nothing seemed to feel right. I started thinking about my dogs over the years and what they meant to me. I have had some cool dogs (and I still need to reply to that thread some day) and I spent quite some time sifting through memories and what they each meant to me. I was doing this chronologically in my head, and when I got to Fama I realized that the feelings I had for her were stronger, and much different, than the feelings I have for my other dogs. This led me to try and understand why?
> 
> Just as battle creates brothers out of soldiers that didn't know each other 3 months ago, the hardship of war forged a great bond between Fama and I. We lived in terrible conditions sometimes, ate bad food, worked in the heat and cold and bad weather, were deprived of sleep and safety and friends. We tackled the mission together. Fama was always an equal partner in the work. I can't smell bombs and she can't fire a weapon. Amazingly enough, I believe she understood this as well as I did.
> 
> There came a certain day, in a certain village, on a certain mission, when Fama undoubtedly saved my life. She bit a guy in the face who was about to shoot me from behind. I didn't even know he was there. When all the commotion was over, she came to check on me, ears back, kissing me on the face. Then she curled up next to me on the ground and resumed guard.
> 
> At that moment, I knew I had a partner in life that went far beyond a dog wanting a reward.
> 
> We spent 3 hours behind a rock one time, taking heavy machinegun fire from a fighting position on a hill. The rest of the platoon was pinned down 150 meters behind us. We shared a bottle of water and a bag of beef jerky. Everything was OK because we both had 10 fingers and 10 toes, and we were together.
> 
> So I guess what that quote really means is that there is more to my relationship with my dog than a bowl of food and a scratch behind the ear. We are in life together, and though I don't really know what all that entails, I know that it means I am never alone as long as I have my dog, no matter what.


 
I am speachless. What an awesome story!


----------



## Sunflowers

*
Fama says, "A lot easier to get that ball now. Cool."*


----------



## Daisy&Lucky's Mom

David Winners said:


> I just got a PM asking me to explain part of my signature:
> 
> 
> 
> When I was trying to come up with something clever for a sig line I went through my favorite quotes, from Rush lyrics to Teddy Roosevelt, and nothing seemed to feel right. I started thinking about my dogs over the years and what they meant to me. I have had some cool dogs (and I still need to reply to that thread some day) and I spent quite some time sifting through memories and what they each meant to me. I was doing this chronologically in my head, and when I got to Fama I realized that the feelings I had for her were stronger, and much different, than the feelings I have for my other dogs. This led me to try and understand why?
> 
> Just as battle creates brothers out of soldiers that didn't know each other 3 months ago, the hardship of war forged a great bond between Fama and I. We lived in terrible conditions sometimes, ate bad food, worked in the heat and cold and bad weather, were deprived of sleep and safety and friends. We tackled the mission together. Fama was always an equal partner in the work. I can't smell bombs and she can't fire a weapon. Amazingly enough, I believe she understood this as well as I did.
> 
> There came a certain day, in a certain village, on a certain mission, when Fama undoubtedly saved my life. She bit a guy in the face who was about to shoot me from behind. I didn't even know he was there. When all the commotion was over, she came to check on me, ears back, kissing me on the face. Then she curled up next to me on the ground and resumed guard.
> 
> At that moment, I knew I had a partner in life that went far beyond a dog wanting a reward.
> 
> We spent 3 hours behind a rock one time, taking heavy machinegun fire from a fighting position on a hill. The rest of the platoon was pinned down 150 meters behind us. We shared a bottle of water and a bag of beef jerky. Everything was OK because we both had 10 fingers and 10 toes, and we were together.
> 
> So I guess what that quote really means is that there is more to my relationship with my dog than a bowl of food and a scratch behind the ear. We are in life together, and though I don't really know what all that entails, I know that it means I am never alone as long as I have my dog, no matter what.


I am so glad you and Fama are able to continue your partnership here at home. Thank you both for serving.Reading about your experiences over there and the dangers you and Fama faced together are incredible and bring to mind just how much a few have faced and sacrificed so that so many could be safe. Wishing you both many years of health and happiness. 

On a less serious note Fama looks pretty happy as a civilian! LOL


----------



## Oliver'smom

*Love following this thread!*

Keep the updates coming, I've been following your updates off and on with Fama. Just a great story with a happy ending. My thanks to both of your for your service. Does Fama get a Purple Heart for her tail? You both made it home and are writing a new chapter. In fact, maybe you should consider writing this down and telling her story. I would buy the book!


----------



## David Winners

You can read the first half of the book on the internet. Google Fama bomb dog and you will find it 

The second half is still in the works. 

David Winners


----------



## gsdsar

Have any of Famas other handlers expressed interest in seeing her again? Were any of them contacted about adopting her after she was retired? I know you were not contacted. So just curious as to how that works. I would think previous handlers would be the first contacted. 

I did not know she had so many handlers, so it's just curiosity on my part. She is definitely where she is supposed to be. I wish you all the best with her. She has truly earned a freshly made bed each night and home full of love and treats. 

Can't wait to hear more stories!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## kjdreyer

Wow, your story just gets better and better. I am so grateful there are people like you and dogs like her watching over our young people in danger. To say thank you just seems so lame! I'm so glad she's adapted once again and that she has you and your family to give her such a happy life. And thank you for sharing!


----------



## David Winners

gsdsar said:


> Have any of Famas other handlers expressed interest in seeing her again? Were any of them contacted about adopting her after she was retired? I know you were not contacted. So just curious as to how that works. I would think previous handlers would be the first contacted.
> 
> I did not know she had so many handlers, so it's just curiosity on my part. She is definitely where she is supposed to be. I wish you all the best with her. She has truly earned a freshly made bed each night and home full of love and treats.
> 
> Can't wait to hear more stories!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


None of her other handlers ever worked out. She either punked them out by bullying them or wouldn't work for them. She deployed with a contractor to Iraq before I got her and was sent home for biting an interpreter. It's a long story, and he really had it coming, but none the less, I'm the only one that really clicked with her.

Fama's handler at Bragg was going to adopt her, as well as another handler there, until I got involved. Having deployed with her gave me priority of sorts.

I'm just glad that she's happy and healthy. She deserves to have her bed made every night, and the best that I can do for her every day. We just got back from a run to the auto parts store and the beer store. I take her everywhere I can get away with it lol. We worked 2 detection problems today and went for a 4 mile run before dinner.

She's loving life and that makes me happy 

David Winners


----------



## Sunflowers

I need a mod to fix the first link I posted, to the bomb dog story.

It got messed up somehow, maybe because of forbidden words in the link


----------



## readaboutdogs

Thank you both for your service and thanks so much for sharing so much of your life! So glad you both are just enjoying life together, that she came back to you! Some things are just meant to be!


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> I need a mod to fix the first link I posted, to the bomb dog story.
> 
> It got messed up somehow, maybe because of forbidden words in the link


Lol... I just tell people to Google Fama bomb dog. I got in trouble with the mods her when I first tried to post the story here 

David Winners


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> I just got a PM asking me to explain part of my signature:....
> 
> So I guess what that quote really means is that there is more to my relationship with my dog than a bowl of food and a scratch behind the ear. We are in life together, and though I don't really know what all that entails, I know that it means I am never alone as long as I have my dog, no matter what.


David,

Thanks to you (and whoever pm'd you) for the explanation. I have wondered for the longest, but was afraid I'd be too intrusive if I asked. The thought process behind your signature is so insightful. In smaller ways, with different dogs who have done some heroic things over the years, I have felt a glimmer of what you describe. But to live day-to-day, 24/7, in the environment and situations you describe--wow. Humbling.

Susan


----------



## David Winners

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> David,
> 
> Thanks to you (and whoever pm'd you) for the explanation. I have wondered for the longest, but was afraid I'd be too intrusive if I asked. The thought process behind your signature is so insightful. In smaller ways, with different dogs who have done some heroic things over the years, I have felt a glimmer of what you describe. But to live day-to-day, 24/7, in the environment and situations you describe--wow. Humbling.
> 
> Susan


Humbling for me too. I learned a lot from Fama and the things we went through. Right now, she's teaching me about calming signals and reciprocal play behavior. When she gets too rough with Lu, she recognizes it and grabs a Kong to bite instead of making him mad. She plows right back into him but bites the Kong instead. Play continues, and everybody has fun.

She's just a cool dog lol

David Winners


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Every now and then we have a special relationship between us and an animal. 

I call them 'soul pets'. Sounds like Fama is yours.

As always, thank you for sharing your pictures and stories David. They are uplifting.


----------



## ApselBear

Thanks David, much respect for you and Fama.


----------



## blackshep

I watched a show on military dogs and handlers called Glory Hounds, I sobbed the entire two hours and woke up with a headache. lol 

I honestly have no idea how you guys get through the stress of doing tours in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, you have my utmost respect. 

I'm so glad you were reunited with her and that she's adjusting to her retirement. Some animals just grab a hold of your heart and don't let go.


----------



## David Winners

blackshep said:


> I watched a show on military dogs and handlers called Glory Hounds, I sobbed the entire two hours and woke up with a headache. lol
> 
> I honestly have no idea how you guys get through the stress of doing tours in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, you have my utmost respect.
> 
> I'm so glad you were reunited with her and that she's adjusting to her retirement. Some animals just grab a hold of your heart and don't let go.


We get through it because we have our brothers and sisters to our left and right. In my case, I had Fama. It's nothing heroic or above and beyond what anyone would do in the same situation, if they are able. You do what you are trained and you protect one another. You do your job, just like anyone does. 

Aside from missing my family, I love being deployed. It's a great job being a soldier... especially as a handler.

David Winners


----------



## David Winners

Gwenhwyfair said:


> Every now and then we have a special relationship between us and an animal.
> 
> I call them 'soul pets'. Sounds like Fama is yours.
> 
> As always, thank you for sharing your pictures and stories David. They are uplifting.


I think so too. We share a brain lol. I think we are just a lot alike and we have a tendency to come to the same conclusion given the same situation. I don't really know though. How can you quantify a relationship? It's beyond my understanding. I just know it's fun, and we both seem to get a lot out of it.

David Winners


----------



## TAR HEEL MOM

Thanks again for the explanation. I, too, had wondered about the back story. Your video of Lu and Fama plays looks exactly like what happens in my house every single day. Except my Lu is an overweight lab named Jocassee and my Fama has a tail  Best of luck in your continued daily adventures with your "soul dog" (I really like that btw.)


----------



## David Winners

I decided to video some Nosework this evening. This is a vehicle search with 1 hide (1 birch q-tip) placed under the truck on the frame by the rear driver's side tire. It was really windy. She hits odor on the front of the truck but can't pinpoint it. She ends up going all the way to the rear of the truck and then underneath before figuring out where it is.

Thought you may like to see her working. She's a little groggy at first. She was napping after dinner when I leashed her up LOL.

Fama Nosework2 27 JUN 14 - YouTube

I can't figure out why the video won't imbed... oh well


----------



## Castlemaid

I'm just catching up on this thread, what a beautiful story. Love all the pics. 

Nice work from Fama! From your blurb I was expecting her to be searching longer, but she found the source quick!


----------



## David Winners

Castlemaid said:


> I'm just catching up on this thread, what a beautiful story. Love all the pics.
> 
> Nice work from Fama! From your blurb I was expecting her to be searching longer, but she found the source quick!


LOL... that's not quick  It's pretty windy tonight and the odor is doing some fun stuff. It's interesting (to me at least) to watch her bracket (zone in) to source.

Here's another vid of a small open area, my front yard, and a couple different hides. Still single birch q-tips.

Fama Nosework 27 JUN 14 - YouTube


----------



## Castlemaid

Love watching them use their brain! The wind can really play tricks them. You could tell how the wind was causing the odor to pool at the base of the tree - how she kept checking there, and was trying to figure out where the odor was coming from.

Why do you stand behind her and throw the ball forward when you reward? I'm sure there is a specific reason you do it that way.


----------



## David Winners

Having a focused stare at the source of odor helps the handler determine where the source is. This is handy when telling EOD (Explosives Ordinance Disposal... the bomb squad) where the dog responded. She knows that the only way to get the reward is to stare at the source. You can see that she checks on where I am a couple of times to try and see when the reward is coming. I move out of her field of vision to remove any visual cues to the reward so she doesn't learn to anticipate the ball and break from the indication. Imagine if you were going to take notes on the location of a suspected IED and you reached into your pocket for a pen and the dog broke from the stay.

It's not important now, because she's finding q-tips with birch oil on them, but I'm keeping up good practices because it's habit, and the focused stare looks cool


----------



## Colie CVT

All the pictures and stories and videos just make me smile.  She is a really special girl and I'm so glad that she got to go home with you in the end. I have a lot of respect for handlers in the military and police force. Not all mind you, but very many of them. 

I spent three days taking care of a K9 who unfortunately turned out to be much sicker than we originally realized. He actually was in a magazine as a hero dog if I am remembering right. I would have to google to see if his story is still up there. He was a good eleven years old if I remember right and had cancer in between times when he was deployed. He was always so relaxed with me, even if I had to rotate him and do other things. The women who had been taking care of him while he was on base came up to be with him when we euthanized him, and I was right there with him, certain to take care of him in the end. <3 Such brave and loyal creatures deserve a great deal of respect.


----------



## blackshep

It does look cool!  I like that you jiggle the line a bit, it's funny when they are on it, they won't leave.

I have trouble directing my dog. At the trial last weekend, the judge (retired police k9 guy) said it's better to use a collar over a harness for that reason. I see you use a harness? Which do you find is better? I started using one so my dog knew it was ok to pull a bit with it on, vs being walked on a collar.

Sorry to hijack


----------



## David Winners

blackshep said:


> It does look cool!  I like that you jiggle the line a bit, it's funny when they are on it, they won't leave.
> 
> I have trouble directing my dog. At the trial last weekend, the judge (retired police k9 guy) said it's better to use a collar over a harness for that reason. I see you use a harness? Which do you find is better? I started using one so my dog knew it was ok to pull a bit with it on, vs being walked on a collar.
> 
> Sorry to hijack


The jiggle the line (actually I pull pretty hard) is to get the dog to stay at source no matter what. It's not so important when you can really pay attention to the dog, but if you are distracted, you don't want the dog leaving source because you tugged on the leash. It's referred to as obedience to odor. 

I use a harness so the dog knows it's okay to pull. I use a flat collar for vehicles sometimes, as in the truck video. For 6' leash work, especially with new handlers, I use a collar. Preferably a wide collar that is snug enough to stay in place with the D ring on top of the dog's neck. It makes leash handling easier for newbies. 

I use a harness more because I teach some positions with leash pressure, and I don't want the dog to become insensitive to pressure on its neck. It is also much easier to work a dog on a long line in harness. The leash doesn't tangle in the dog's legs as often. 

No worry about the hijack. I should probably make a new Nosework thread. I have been getting a lot of questions about it. 

When you say "trouble directing your dog," can you give an example or show some video? 

David Winners


----------



## David Winners

Colie CVT said:


> All the pictures and stories and videos just make me smile.  She is a really special girl and I'm so glad that she got to go home with you in the end. I have a lot of respect for handlers in the military and police force. Not all mind you, but very many of them.
> 
> I spent three days taking care of a K9 who unfortunately turned out to be much sicker than we originally realized. He actually was in a magazine as a hero dog if I am remembering right. I would have to google to see if his story is still up there. He was a good eleven years old if I remember right and had cancer in between times when he was deployed. He was always so relaxed with me, even if I had to rotate him and do other things. The women who had been taking care of him while he was on base came up to be with him when we euthanized him, and I was right there with him, certain to take care of him in the end. <3 Such brave and loyal creatures deserve a great deal of respect.


Thanks for what you do. I read the thread about your boy. It's great that you were there for him. 

David Winners


----------



## blackshep

Let me know if you want to move the conversation over to a new thread. 

Basically, my dog is young and pretty high drive. She waits for the command to start her search almost coiled to spring into action, so when I tell her to search, she plows ahead and I always have to circle her back to the starting point because she leaps past the first few feet.

She searches really fast and she is hard to do detail work with, because she kind of runs all over the place and at trials you can't pull on your dog or you lose points, but she's hard to keep up with! Container searches, for example, she will jump from one line to another without finishing the line so I have to bring her back if I'm not getting an indication. Basically, it's a nightmare for trials because I have to try to remember what we missed.

It sounds worse than it is, she got 196/200 at her last trial, it's just something I want to try to fix.

Anyway the first thing the k9 guy said to me at the trial, was a collar would be better than a harness.

I wish you lived closer, I'd love to take classes from you or something, you are really knowledgable with this stuff! Thanks for taking the time to help people here, it's really appreciated.


----------



## Sunflowers

blackshep said:


> Let me know if you want to move the conversation over to a new thread.
> 
> Basically, my dog is young and pretty high drive. She waits for the command to start her search almost coiled to spring into action, so when I tell her to search, she plows ahead and I always have to circle her back to the starting point because she leaps past the first few feet.
> 
> She searches really fast and she is hard to do detail work with, because she kind of runs all over the place and at trials you can't pull on your dog or you lose points, but she's hard to keep up with! Container searches, for example, she will jump from one line to another without finishing the line so I have to bring her back if I'm not getting an indication. Basically, it's a nightmare for trials because I have to try to remember what we missed.
> 
> It sounds worse than it is, she got 196/200 at her last trial, it's just something I want to try to fix.
> 
> Anyway the first thing the k9 guy said to me at the trial, was a collar would be better than a harness.
> 
> I wish you lived closer, I'd love to take classes from you or something, you are really knowledgable with this stuff! Thanks for taking the time to help people here, it's really appreciated.


C'mon now... This is Fama's update thread!


----------



## blackshep

I know, he asked for heavens sake!


----------



## David Winners

Busy at the moment. I'll make a new thread. 

David Winners


----------



## Colie CVT

Sorry I derailed it a touch but seeing Fama reminds me of him. I thank you and others like you for what you do. <3 I have a lot of admiration and respect for the sacrifices you all make. 

So glad to see Fama having fun! She moves like my roommates older boy with the same condition. She looks like she is a spry and happy retired girl! Spoiled and loved. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## David Winners

Nosework stuff moved to new thread here.


----------



## TommyB681

This is an awesome thread


----------



## David Winners

Fama and Lucian wrestling. They are so funny. 










David Winners


----------



## Courtney

David- looks like Fama is reminding him she can bring the world down on him. lol

Great pic- they are having fun!


----------



## Shade

Go GSD's, show 'em how it's done


----------



## David Winners

I just got home from a demo with Fama. I took her into a military school I am in for my final exam. We did a class on the capabilities and limitations of MWDs.

She walked in off leash and greeted everyone, jumping up on a couple laps to give ear sniffs. I put her in a down stay in front of the screen where I was presenting my slideshow and she stayed there, falling asleep at one point, for the whole 30 minute presentation. When it was time for the demo, I ran her through some off leash OB and then did some simple detection. I let a few people handle her a little bit doing box drills and she did OK with them, but kept looking back at me LOL

I then had the class plant some hides in the theater and had Fama find them off leash. She really had a great time, and enjoyed getting out to a strange venue to meet so many new people. She rocked the whole thing. I'm so proud of her.

We got a standing ovation at the end of the class, and I fielded questions for about 30 minutes after. I need to teach her to hold a Sharpie and do signatures 

It's just so much fun to have a great dog. Ready to do anything at a moments notice. Phazed by nothing. Happy to just do whatever I happen to be doing at that moment, be it hanging out in a park, laying under my desk while I post on the forum, giving a class, or doing detection.

I'm so glad she came home to daddy.


----------



## My2shepherds

Yeah Fama!! So proud of you! :hug:

For you David, your love and devotion to her are inspiring.... I am so happy for you BOTH!!!:wub:


----------



## glowingtoadfly

Hooray Fama! She gives me hope for my Wolfbat. Can't believe she went through some handlers. Little sass lol.


----------



## Shade

Fantastic :happyboogie:


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> I'm so glad she came home to daddy.


:happyboogie:


----------



## Castlemaid

Super! What a great Ambassador for the breed!


----------



## RocketDog

I have only read the beginning pages and the end pages, but I will catch up. Great thread and happy to see her home with you and the two of you, well, being happy.


----------



## jetdog

After reading through this, who could not love this dog?! Fama is simply amazing and I'm so glad she ended up with you where she belongs! Give her a pat for me and an ear scratch too. Thanks you two!


----------



## David Winners

Just switched Fama over to raw, from BB Wilderness, last night. Her ears have been inflamed off and on, and she has itchy periods lasting a few days. 

I found whole chickens for $1.35 / pound. I bought 2 and skinned them, to let her adjust for the first few meals, and then cut them up and portioned them into 13 oz bags for meals. She's 65 pounds, so I went with 2.5% per day, split into 2 meals. 

I also added her normal supplements, Feedsentiels, Shemp-Oil, Phyt'n Chance, Power of 3 E's and garlic. 

2 meals have gone great so far. Good poop this morning. 

I plan on keeping her on chicken to see if the inflammation goes away. If this happens, I plan on adding a single protein per week to see how she reacts to them. 

Any advice?


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

I don't feed raw, so I don't have any advice there. Just about your source for chicken. A number of years ago I was cooking for my dogs, one had a ton of allergies, and I found a farmer who raised chickens completely natural, no hormones, no antibiotics, free run, etc. They slaughtered fresh for orders. Do you have anyone near who might supply something similar? Amish farms are a good source, too. I don't even buy chicken that is supposed to be human grade from the supermarkets--too much going on there. I have to be careful because my sister has immune problems. Anyway, that's just a thought.

Susan


----------



## wyoung2153

Courtney said:


> Also, let me be clear - the bad guys do not want to come in contact with our "fur missiles"


Teehee... fur missles :wild:

As a military member myself, who has deployed numerous times... there is nothing better than watching a MWD and their partner work. There is just something so secure and promising about it, knowing they are there. Can't explain it.. Had the chance on my last one to really get to know a few handlers and their dogs.. even played with a few in the mornings before shifts, just awesome. 

Thank you David and Fama for everything you did out there and still continue to do. I just spent a good chunk of the last hour relaying your story to my office when they saw me looking at this thread.. (with the exclaimed "she doesn't have a tail?!")  

and thanks Sunflowers for starting this thread!! I can't wait to read more stories! I expecially cannot wait to read the book when it is published!


----------



## David Winners

Thanks Susan. I'm new to this area so I will have to ask around. 

Thanks wyoung! And thanks for your service. 



Third raw meal tonight. No issues. She really loves the chicken. Stool was loose but not horrible tonight. I'm going to keep everything the same same and see how the poop looks tomorrow.


----------



## Blitzkrieg1

Im not a purist, as cheap raw around here is hard to find at a reasonable price. I try to do one meal once a day or every other day. Add tbsp of feedsential Then do kibble for the second meal. Also I try to throw in human left over food once a day or everyother day. Cooked meat, rice, noodles, egg, sardines etc 

I tend to up the raw when I notice more shedding, so far so good.


----------



## wyoung2153

How are things going with Miss Fama?? Any updates?


----------



## David Winners

She's doing great! The transition to raw was easy on her. I've started OM with every meal and no issues. She absolutely loves it and her condition is improving. It's too early to tell if it's the diet helping, because she goes through phases. 

She's also dealing very well with me being super busy. I've been in school, studying for the NCO of the month board, and completing some online schools as well. She hasn't been getting exercise as regularly as she is accustomed to, but hasn't been acting out or anything. 

I still do Nosework training at least 5 days a week for about an hour, so I'm sure that helps. My girl lives to work. I need to shoot some more video. We've moved on to some more difficult work, including training search patterns which she lost when working with the MPs. 

I do take her everywhere I can, so she gets to get out of the house pretty often too. Her favorite stop is the local Ace Hardware. They love her in there, and she enjoys doing OB in the store. The checkout lady wanted to meet her yesterday, so I had Fama jump up on the counter and say hi. It was a big hit lol. 

The weather has been pretty hot, but we've been working in the late afternoons and she is acclimated pretty well. She can go for about an hour before wanting to take a break, which is pretty good for detection work. I'd take her down range tomorrow if I could assure a source of food and supplements. 

I couldn't be happier, and I think I can say the same for Fama.


----------



## carmspack

whoa -- look how rich her pigment is - looking good .

what is "take her down range tomorrow if I could assure a source of food and supplements" ?


----------



## David Winners

Thanks Carmen! 

I would deploy to Afghanistan and put my life in her paws given the opportunity. She is doing that well. Go down range means go to war. 

I wish I knew her pedigree.


----------



## blackshep

Raw was a miracle for my dog! I hope it helps her too.

I'd love to see more vids of her doing nosework!


----------



## Malachi'sMama

Wonderful thread. I just love the photos. 
My father was a handler for a K9 sentry GSD during Vietnam. His dog was Hitler. The stories are horrific (what few he'll share) and even more horrific are all the dogs that had to be left behind bc they were deemed 'unfit for civilian life'...Hitler didn't get to come home but I love to see stories like this. I hope it's updated frequently!!


----------



## wyoung2153

Thanks for the update!  She is looking great!! I get the busy life thing. Titan is learning to be ok with it too


----------



## David Winners

We had company over last night. It's wonderful to be making friends and to finally have something social to do. A really nice couple came over for dinner with their 4 month old baby girl and 16 year old foreign exchange student from Spain. 

Initial greetings went very well. They are dog people and were very excited to meet our dogs. Lucian just loves babies and he stuck to the mom like glue while they brought in the baby and transferred her to a bouncy chair. She is a very happy baby, always making those adorable baby noises and kicking her feet to get her chair going. Lucian spent most of the evening with the baby  under close supervision at all times. 
Whenever the baby would coo, so would Lucian  It's like they were having a conversation. Lu laid down by the baby's feet and tickled her with his muzzle and when the baby laughed, he would warble with her. He was very calm and gentle, and everyone got a big laugh out of it. He even went in and supervised the changing of the diapers. 

Fama made a new friend in the wife of the visiting couple. After dinner, we were hanging around outside on the patio together. The lady went inside and Fama followed her. They ended up wrestling around on the couch and floor in the living room, which turned into a snuggle fest. 

I brought out some Nosework stuff and did a little demo for them. They are interested in training their husky puppy in Nosework and wanted to see what it was all about. Afterward, the lady wanted to do some off leash obedience with Fama. I showed Fama the ball and she watched me give it to the lady. Sit, stand and down went very well, but when she gave the heel command, Fama came to heel position by my side, 20 feet away lol. It took a couple of lures to get Fama to heel with her, but eventually they were popping around the back yard having fun. 

The Exchange student has several dogs back in Spain, and was very interested in the dogs. Pud ended up hanging out with him on the outdoor couch on the patio. Pud fell asleep with his head on the boy's lap. He was full of smiles and questions, and wanted to take Pud home with him when they left. 

All in all it was a fun and interesting night for humans and dogs alike. Everyone made some friends and shared some stories. We were all content and sleepy by the end of the night. 

Good food, good friends, and good dogs. What else is there to make a Saturday night more pleasurable.


----------



## David Winners

Frustrated... 

Fama has been doing great after switching to raw... Until 2 days ago. 

BLAM! 

Crusty ear, itching, keeping herself up scratching at night, pink skin... 

Time for allergy testing.


----------



## Carriesue

David Winners said:


> Frustrated...
> 
> Fama has been doing great after switching to raw... Until 2 days ago.
> 
> BLAM!
> 
> Crusty ear, itching, keeping herself up scratching at night, pink skin...
> 
> Time for allergy testing.


I'd bring it up in the raw feeding community Facebook group, they've helped quite a few people out with similar issues. How long has she been on raw? If it's not been long then it could be very possible that she is just going through detox, I'd keep plugging away and don't stop feeding raw! Detox can sometimes take several months especially if they're older. I'd give her some benedryl for now and add in some unrefined coconut oil if you haven't already. Most vets would probably try to put her on some steroids but if it were me I'd avoid that while she could be possibly detoxing.


----------



## David Winners

She's getting coconut oil. 

I'm not doing the prednisone thing again. I need to get to the root of the cause, not just treat the symptoms. 

I'll post on the FB page. Thanks! 

Any recommendations for derm vets in the OKC area anyone?


----------



## Sunflowers

Is she eating chicken?


----------



## carmspack

wild pigs?

just the ears, no diarrhea, no scratching or skin problems?


----------



## BowWowMeow

If she has environmental allergies, this is a bad time of year.


----------



## David Winners

Sunflowers said:


> Is she eating chicken?


Yes, chicken, beef and pork.


----------



## David Winners

carmspack said:


> wild pigs?
> 
> just the ears, no diarrhea, no scratching or skin problems?


No wild pig yet. 

Ears, body scratching, pink irritated skin. 

Zero sign of fleas.


----------



## David Winners

BowWowMeow said:


> If she has environmental allergies, this is a bad time of year.


I agree. That's why I'm considering testing.


----------



## carmspack

I find this product very interesting 

Dog Allergies | Dog Food Allergies - Healthy GOO ?


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> Yes, chicken, beef and pork.


 One of my rescues a few years back came to me with bad food allergies. My vet had me immediately stop all kibble, and beg, borrow and steal (not literally, lol) wild venison for him. I posted at work for anyone who wanted to clear their freezer out before the next hunting season, and I got enough venison (and even some elk) to feed him for nearly 4 months. I didn't feed raw, can't because my sister has immune problems and I am afraid to introduce something into our household that may harm her, but everything cleared up for him. Then I gradually tried adding dogfood to find something that didn't upset his system. I ended up feeding him wild venison when I could get it, but I also fed him Wysong Synorgon, it's a company local here in mid Michigan, also listed as one of the approved kibbles on the Dog Food Advisor list. He ate that for the rest of his life, and it worked for him. 

According to my vet, wild venison is just about the only thing left that they can use to clear a dog's system. And it has to be wild, not farm-raised, because the deer farms pretty much end up feeding the same way cattle are fed. And for a dog with food allergies, I would shy away from chicken, too, unless you can be certain on how it is raised (or raise your own).

I don't know how available venison would be in OK, but perhaps the wild pig you are getting will help.

Susan


----------



## David Winners

carmspack said:


> I find this product very interesting
> 
> Dog Allergies | Dog Food Allergies - Healthy GOO ?


Carmen, do you find the feeding of allergen proteins to be beneficial? 

Might local honey help, for the same reasons? I can get honey produced less than 10 miles from my house.


----------



## David Winners

Susan_GSD_mom said:


> One of my rescues a few years back came to me with bad food allergies. My vet had me immediately stop all kibble, and beg, borrow and steal (not literally, lol) wild venison for him. I posted at work for anyone who wanted to clear their freezer out before the next hunting season, and I got enough venison (and even some elk) to feed him for nearly 4 months. I didn't feed raw, can't because my sister has immune problems and I am afraid to introduce something into our household that may harm her, but everything cleared up for him. Then I gradually tried adding dogfood to find something that didn't upset his system. I ended up feeding him wild venison when I could get it, but I also fed him Wysong Synorgon, it's a company local here in mid Michigan, also listed as one of the approved kibbles on the Dog Food Advisor list. He ate that for the rest of his life, and it worked for him.
> 
> According to my vet, wild venison is just about the only thing left that they can use to clear a dog's system. And it has to be wild, not farm-raised, because the deer farms pretty much end up feeding the same way cattle are fed. And for a dog with food allergies, I would shy away from chicken, too, unless you can be certain on how it is raised (or raise your own).
> 
> I don't know how available venison would be in OK, but perhaps the wild pig you are getting will help.
> 
> Susan


Thanks Susan! 

I wish I was back home in Ohio. I could feed her for a long time on venison there. I'll ask around and see what I can come up with. 

I appreciate the suggestions.


----------



## Sunflowers

David Winners said:


> Yes, chicken, beef and pork.


I would eliminate the chicken and all poultry and see how she does.


----------



## David Winners

How long do you think it will take to see any change? 

As in : should I feed no poultry for a week, month, 3 months?


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

it takes at least a month for food related allergies per my vet when I had the same problems with Smitty.

I took him off poultry and that helped but we still had seasonal issues in the summer.

I've found feeding Olewo carrots and beets to be very beneficial. 

https://www.olewousa.com/products/olewo/dogs

Solid gold seal meal too.

Amazon.com : Solid Gold Supplements Seameal Powder - 1lb : Pet Multivitamins : Pet Supplies


I've not had to give Smitty any prednisolone for the last two summers since changing his diet and adding the above.

The vet now raves about my dogs coat condition. 

Allergies can be tricky, hope this or something else helps Fama feel better real soon.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> How long do you think it will take to see any change?
> 
> As in : should I feed no poultry for a week, month, 3 months?


My vet wanted Roscoe off everything but the venison for at least 3 months, she said it takes that long for everything to clear from their system.

Susan


----------



## Sunflowers

David Winners said:


> How long do you think it will take to see any change?
> 
> As in : should I feed no poultry for a week, month, 3 months?


I saw a change in about 2 months, took quite longer for him to be completely OK. 

In my case, I sent saliva to California for a Nutriscan test. He reacted to just about everything except beef and lamb. Venison was quite a no-no for him, and it suddenly made sense why, hours after eating venison, it would all come back up.

Hans used to vomit and not eat, along with the skin problems. Skin problems 100% resolved by giving one vitamin C capsule every night. His itching and constant staph sores are all gone. I use naturally derived C, and take it, too 


Amazon.com: Garden of Life Vitamin Code Raw Vitamin C, 120 Capsules: Health & Personal Care


----------



## David Winners

Thanks for the input everyone. I've located a derm vet close by that comes highly recommended by a good friend. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## carmspack

done this recently David? remember this thread http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-give-heartworm-hookworm-fleas-ticks-etc.html

consider the water -- many municipalities will increase chlorine levels - 

this may be the first season that your dog is more indoors than in her working career where she was probably kenneled and outdoors .

check your household cleaners -- use of chlorine as a laundry aid or kitchen cleaner .

Fama could be the canary in the mine .

just some early morning thoughts.


----------



## David Winners

Good things to consider Carmen. 

Her last ivermectin was august 1st.

I use blue dawn as a cleaner in the house. I wipe down counters with chlorine bleach wipes, but don't use anything but dawn and a steam mop in the kitchen on the floors. 

The water they get is out of the tap, but it goes into an open container and sits for half a day before using. 

Any water given with supplements or food is bottled. I could go to 100% bottled water pretty easily. 

I did spray for insects 2 weeks ago, just around baseboards and Windows. I use a 10% permethrin product. 

I also used an Arm and Hammer pet deodorizer product on the carpet before I vacuumed 2 weeks ago. 

I've been giving Sunday Sundae only weekly. Should I go to daily, before and after meals? 

Thanks for the input. I'm trying to think of anything else.


----------



## onyx'girl

I've been using Carmspack products since June and this time of year has my dogs all itchy/scratchy. 
Nothing has changed as far as what we're doing. It is the time of year. I hope upping the C may help.


----------



## David Winners

My 2 other dogs are fine, but they are always fine lol. No change in itching or ear troubles ever from the black dogs.


----------



## carmspack

David I would test out the GOO product that I sent as a link -- and local bee POLLEN 

Fama has been in a lot of environmental zones - her last one was at the military base which was where ? moved to where (approximately) so yet another set of environmental exposures . Asking so that you can think back if she had ever had a problem at any other time (like at the base?) 

I don't think it is food related . 
More likely molds, spores, pollen -- ragweedy type things .

google pyrethrin and dog allergies -- Common Insecticide Ingredient May Cause Allergic Reactions

inhalant ? would Fama the nose-dog go sniffing the baseboards ?


----------



## Wolfgeist

This is my favourite thread... and love love love all the photos. <3


----------



## David Winners

carmspack said:


> David I would test out the GOO product that I sent as a link -- and local bee POLLEN
> 
> Fama has been in a lot of environmental zones - her last one was at the military base which was where ? moved to where (approximately) so yet another set of environmental exposures . Asking so that you can think back if she had ever had a problem at any other time (like at the base?)
> 
> I don't think it is food related .
> More likely molds, spores, pollen -- ragweedy type things .
> 
> google pyrethrin and dog allergies -- Common Insecticide Ingredient May Cause Allergic Reactions
> 
> inhalant ? would Fama the nose-dog go sniffing the baseboards ?


She spent 2 years at Bragg, North Carolina, 2 weeks in Ohio, and has been here since mid June. She has shown this before, in Indiana, Afghanistan, North Carolina and Arizona. Until recently, she was fed Hills SD ZD. Her vet record is full of Benedryl and prednisone, due to the same symptoms she is facing now. I will look back at dates and see if I can find any correlation to season. 

I do not think it is food either. Symptoms come and go while food stays the same. 

And yes... She certainly sniffs everything, including baseboards. I thought the permethrin was safe to use. 

There is just so much to piece together. I'm getting there though. 

Thanks for your help. Talk with you soon.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> I also used an Arm and Hammer pet deodorizer product on the carpet before I vacuumed 2 weeks ago.


David, I did have a GSD in the middle 90s who reacted to the Arm & Hammer carpet products. He had food allergies, but I had him tested and there were a number of environmental things that affected him, too. As long as he was alive, I couldn't use those baking soda-based carpet products, though. Just something else to consider.

It sounds like you have the best route, though--a vet who specializes in such issues.

Susan


----------



## David Winners

Good to know Susan! Thanks for the info.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

Something else I just remembered from our allergy dog days (sorry, it takes my old brain time to really kick in sometimes, lol)...

In your efforts to at least alleviate symptoms, even temporarily, try applying plain old Listerine to the affected skin with a cotton ball or soft rag. Make sure it's the original gold colored stuff, though, none of the newer Listerine with all sorts of extra ingredients. It takes away the itch for a while, at least.

Susan


----------



## carmspack

alrighty then (translation -- okay then) I think we are getting somewhere.

David replied to my questions with this information "She spent 2 years at Bragg, North Carolina, 2 weeks in Ohio, and has been here since mid June. She has shown this before, in Indiana, Afghanistan, North Carolina and Arizona. Until recently, she was fed Hills SD ZD. Her vet record is full of Benedryl and prednisone, due to the same symptoms she is facing now. I will look back at dates and see if I can find any correlation to season. "

there , within that answer lies the solution.

This "allergic" response is Fama's cycle to seasonal changes --- not necessarily to molds and spores or air borne seeds -- because in all those locations and latitudes there is no common denominator that is botanical .

The common denominator is temporal , seasonal, reduced daylight hours.
Animals shed and stimulate undercoat , fur , by diminishing exposure to daylight. In the old days fur animals, foxes, mink were put into longer "night" to make the coat dense and luxurious.
Chickens are kept in longer daylight to stimulate egg production.

The sun is a powerful factor in hormones.
Any one notice that their females are all starting to cycle ??

a dog with known seasonal allergies , or "treatments" will have an additional immune challenge .
Sunshine regulates hormones including thyroid --

Fama is getting ALL the allergy reducing vitamins , including natural C , quercitin , papain, bromelain , omega 3's and has an improved digestive system through a better choice in basic foundation diet (raw meat) and digestive enzymes and broad based probiotics.

What she may need is additional vitamin D .

For brevity here are some things to look at Vitamin D in Atopic Dermatitis, Asthma and Allergic Diseases

dogs used in study --

SUNLIGHT, CANINE FERTILITY & VITAMIN D = REPRODUCTIVE HEALTH 

just some things to think about (again!) for when you visit your vet and have tests done .


----------



## onyx'girl

Carmen, I agree...reduced sunlight hours and environmental changes play into the skin and coat condition. I recently started giving all my dogs vitamin D daily(because of Karlo's condition I've been more diligent in supplementing) and I hope it helps. 
With Onyx's extreme allergies, I am hoping the new oral(instead of the old injectable which we gave up on) serum will help her specific allergies. No matter what I've ever given her supplement-wise, she's always had flare ups in the late Summer.
Just like with my parrots, dogs will get rid of the summer undercoat, just to get in a plusher one for the winter months...my African Grey is losing down bigtime right now, and you'd think that down would have molted out back in April or May, not now.


----------



## carmspack

people that have psoriasis or excema tend to have flare ups at this time of year - know of a young child who would be red as a lobster , Vit D supplementation was helpful. 

I was going to mention Vit B 12 also - 

Fama is also receiving carrot and sweet red beet through her supplements already .

Canine Allergies: A New Look | Dogs Naturally Magazine

maybe this dog needs to have food sources with vitamin D, such as yogurt , liver , oily fish , eggs (also lecithin)
kefir - fermented milk products , a drop or two of cod liver oil .

If you know the dog has an immune depression come seasonal , autumnal changes , and you feel that ivermectin flea treatment is a must then change the schedule for the treatment , see if you can effect a change.

I have a lineolated parakeet , also moulting so on a "stress" seed formula for moulting .


----------



## David Winners

I'm seeing a definite seasonal correlation in her symptoms. Thanks so much Carmen. 

I'm stopping the ivermectin altogether. 

Too much to write at this time. I'm in the field and will be busy until late Wednesday. More later.


----------



## Gwenhwyfair

Carmen, 

In blue below, ivermectin is a heart worm preventative. For clarification and understanding did you mean flea treatment such as Frontline?



carmspack said:


> people that have psoriasis or excema tend to have flare ups at this time of year - know of a young child who would be red as a lobster , Vit D supplementation was helpful.
> 
> I was going to mention Vit B 12 also -
> 
> Fama is also receiving carrot and sweet red beet through her supplements already .
> 
> Canine Allergies: A New Look | Dogs Naturally Magazine
> 
> maybe this dog needs to have food sources with vitamin D, such as yogurt , liver , oily fish , eggs (also lecithin)
> kefir - fermented milk products , a drop or two of cod liver oil .
> 
> If you know the dog has an immune depression come seasonal , autumnal changes , and you feel that ivermectin flea treatment is a must then change the schedule for the treatment , see if you can effect a change.
> 
> I have a lineolated parakeet , also moulting so on a "stress" seed formula for moulting .


----------



## David Winners

Getting ready for the big 1st vet visit with Fama. We found a holistic vet that comes highly recommended up in Mustang. I'm getting her records,notes and supplements around so I can hopefully answer any questions they may have. I'm even taking a fecal sample lol. Luckily, she is having a bad ear day, and the vet may be able to see what is going on. 

The more I research, the more I believe that it goes back to gut health and overall general health than anything specific. She is still getting rid of the crap she was eating for years, and her general health is continually improving with time, diet and exercise. 

I'm excited to see how she does, as Fama is notoriously nasty with vets, and excited to hear what the vet has to say. I'm taking a couple balls and her muzzle. Hopefully we don't need the latter. I think it's going to depend on how the staff reacts to her. 

Fingers crossed.


----------



## David Winners

And sorry for the lack of updates. I contracted Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever in the field and have been dealing with that. Good times. 

I'll post an update when we get back from the vet.


----------



## Wolfgeist

David Winners said:


> And sorry for the lack of updates. I contracted Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever in the field and have been dealing with that. Good times.
> 
> I'll post an update when we get back from the vet.


  

Sorry you are having a hard time... wishing you a fast recovery and hope Fama girlie has a super good vet visit.


----------



## David Winners

Wild Wolf said:


> Sorry you are having a hard time... wishing you a fast recovery and hope Fama girlie has a super good vet visit.


I'm much better. I'm still bouncing back after all the doxy and fever, but feeling pretty good now.


----------



## Susan_GSD_mom

David Winners said:


> And sorry for the lack of updates. I contracted Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever in the field and have been dealing with that. Good times.
> 
> I'll post an update when we get back from the vet.


Yikes--that's not anything to take lightly, is it? Hope you are feeling much better, it sounds like it...Do you know when/how you got the tick bite?

Also hope the vet visit goes well for you and Fama. Maybe in her new life she's turned over a new leaf and will like her vet!

Susan


----------



## Moriah

Please take very good care of yourself. So sorry to hear of it.


----------



## David Winners

Fama was amazing! Everyone loved on her. I muzzled her up for the q-tip in the ear, but she forgave the vet immediately after. 

The prognosis: yeast in the ear and gut. Got Zymox and ground olive leaf for that. Mild infection and liver stress. Got all natural supplements for that. Got a homeopathic treatment too, for liver support. She totally approved of the Carmspack supplements and is going to contact Carmen about them. 

She did muscle testing. Strangest thing ever. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it lol. Super happy with the experience. Definitely found my vet!


----------



## dogfaeries

David, did you go to Dr. McNeill in Mustang? I've often thought of going to her.


----------



## David Winners

Yes I did dogfaeries. She is absolutely wonderful, and so is the rest of the staff.


----------



## Wolfgeist

David Winners said:


> Fama was amazing! Everyone loved on her. I muzzled her up for the q-tip in the ear, but she forgave the vet immediately after.
> 
> The prognosis: yeast in the ear and gut. Got Zymox and ground olive leaf for that. Mild infection and liver stress. Got all natural supplements for that. Got a homeopathic treatment too, for liver support. She totally approved of the Carmspack supplements and is going to contact Carmen about them.
> 
> She did muscle testing. Strangest thing ever. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around it lol. Super happy with the experience. Definitely found my vet!


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

So glad the appointment went well, and you seem to have a great treatment plan for it!


----------



## David Winners

I also upped her liver a bit and added a small amount of cod liver oil to her diet. I have been getting her out in the sun more as well. The vet and I both think it is a combination of seasonal allergies and overall immune health.


----------

