# What do you think of this breeder?



## Shavy (Feb 12, 2009)

Negative comments can be PM'd.


I'm considering this breeder for my new pup:

http://www.altebaumkennels.com

Anyone had dealings with him or know his dogs? Here are the dam and sire's pedigrees:

Dam - http://altebaumkennel.com/pages/females/coco.html

Sire - http://altebaumkennel.com/pages/males/crack.html


What are your general thoughts? Can anyone tell me anything about the lines in the pedigrees? I'm looking for a pet/SchH prospect; he's charging more than I wanted to spend, but I want a quality pup.

Thanks.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

http://www.altebaumkennel.com

Just correcting the first link.


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## Shavy (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks, Diana.


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## Superpup (Jun 7, 2007)

Not all the dogs are titled, and not all of them show hip ratings. Call or email this breeder and ask them for health information, looks like the dam of this litter is NOT titled, so in other words she does not have proven temperament, the sire seems to have his BH....

If they are charging too much, why don't you continue your search and find a breeder that has titled, health certified dogs and who sells their puppies for a little less. A working line puppy from titled parents range between 1000-2000 dollars.


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## angelaw (Dec 14, 2001)

They own Cliff?? didn't know that. last i knew Molly had him from his owners who were in the military.

Not sure on Ghost, some pages say Bh with KKL1 which isn't possible, other page just says Sch1


Some are too young for official ofa's, others are german rated, some doesnt' say. But 7 males and 7 females, I have trouble with my 6 (2 of those are seniors!!)

I agree, call the breeder.


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## Shavy (Feb 12, 2009)

I asked the breeder about the lack of health info and he said the dogs are both tested hip/elbows. I will inquire as to the scores. They do guarantee the pups, though I haven't seen the written health guarantee. He said he "only breeds with dogs who are schutzhund titled", so I'm going to ask him if the dam is titled and it just wasn't put on the site. (His site is poorly designed and it follows that it might not be up-to-date or there might be discrepancies due to webmaster fault...I do web design professionally and see this a lot, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I hear back.) 

Anything else I should ask the breeder, based on what you guys are seeing? He's asking $1,000 for the pups that I would be interested in.

I'm curious about the lines of the parents; there are photos in the pedigree and they look a little "showy" to me instead of the lighter working lines. What do you guys think? I'm admittedly not an expert in these areas as most of my dogs have been rescues. This will be my first dog purchased as a puppy from a reputable breeder.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: Shavy (His site is poorly designed and it follows that it might not be up-to-date or there might be discrepancies due to webmaster fault...I do web design professionally and see this a lot, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until I hear back.)


I know of a breeder that is very reputable, but has no site. He is well known enough and goes by his reputation~ it is enough for him and he'd rather you call him personally if you want information. We all like to see the sites and many judge breeders by the upkeep of them when we should be looking at the dogs instead. But it is much easier to just clik on something to get the info instead of actually bothering someone for info.
I have no opinion on this breeder, but there are many reputable ones out there that you don't have to question their program. Search some more til you are comfortable with a great fit.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Both Cliff and Aiko have been sold - a few years ago actually. A couple of the males are young homebred dogs being worked for titles, not standing at stud. I have heard Ghost is pretty nice.

Don't know anything about the females as far as titles. Most of the breeding dogs come from Europe with hip ratings from their home country, not OFAs.

Lee


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

> Quote:Anything else I should ask the breeder, based on what you guys are seeing? He's asking $1,000 for the pups that I would be interested in.


Just wanted to say that that's an excellent price for a well bred GSD. I have heard good things about this kennel in the past but couldn't tell you more than that. I wouldn't call that a recommendation either since it's been awhile and I don't want to steer you the wrong direction. If you're in the area, definitely check out the breeder and ask to see the dogs work.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

This makes me a bit nervous

from http://altebaumkennel.com/pages/puppies.html


> Quote: After several unsuccessful tries we now have puppies from Coco vom MaHaczek and Ghost von der Staatsmacht. Coco proved to be an excellent mother after giving birth to 5 males and 2 females on July 24th.


then I read further down the page becuase I'm confused about what litter the OP is talking about



> Quote:We hope for the best and will be breeding Crack to Coco in November 2008. Check back.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

It is possible that they are not doing any testing (progesterone, smears) and/or they are not hitting the correct time.

I know of many people that do progesterone and have missed repeatedly.


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

I was thinking that July 24th she had puppies and then they want to breed her again in november of the same year.


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Some believe it's better to do a very few back to back breedings and retire the bitch early.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

And some breed them for 2 litters back to back, then let them have a year off.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I am not a "pedigree guru" but I see a lot of dogs in the pedigree that I think were/are known to produce aggression with sharpness/suspicion. Maybe someone else more knowledgeable can comment.
BTW- I called Mike to get some info on my dog's father and grandfather as he was their breeder/owner. Very nice and answered all of my questions, even though he was not my dog's breeder.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

a direct link to the breeding of Crack and Coco..... 
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/5/585897.html


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## Shavy (Feb 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1I am not a "pedigree guru" but I see a lot of dogs in the pedigree that I think were/are known to produce aggression with sharpness/suspicion.


I'm a bit concerned by this statement...which dogs/lines are known for this? Would this combination make the dog more of a liability around strangers, or around guests and family members? 

It doesn't seem to me that a combination of aggression and sharpness/suspicion makes for the dog that would be good for anything but sport...not a sport/pet prospect.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I only say that because mom is linebred on Sagus and Grief (and has Olko, litter mate to Orry?), and then dad brings in Orry and Mona Dollenwiese. I have heard comments on all of those that they were crazy, or sharp, or "a little goes a long way." However, they are farther back in the pedigree and I am still learning,s o hopefully you will get more input from those with experience.

However, in my limited experience, sharpness/suspicion does not mean the dog won't be WONDERFUL with family and known friends.

What does Mike say about the litter?


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

> Originally Posted By: gagsd_pup1I only say that because mom is linebred on Sagus and Grief, and then dad brings in Orry and Mona Dollenwiese. I have heard comments on all of those that they were crazy, or sharp, or "a little goes a long way." However, they are farther back in the pedigree and I am still learning,s o hopefully you will get more input from those with experience.


These things are true of those specific dogs. But they are also only a few out of 60+ dogs in the 5 generation pedigree. They are also several generations back, not up close. And there are many dogs also in the pedigree who don't bring those things, and can help offset getting "too much" of certain traits and balance things out.

That's why seeing the parents, and ideally knowing something about the parent's siblings, their parents, etc... too is important because it provides insight into what traits have carried through over the generations, and what traits have not, how those traits have been offset and recombined, etc...

Predicting results from a pedigree is tricky, and becomes much harder and less accurate the further back in the pedigree you have to go to find dogs you know about with regards to specific traits.


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## Shavy (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm going to try and get out this weekend to see the pups and parents. Any tips or things to watch for? They were born 1/21 so will be 5 and a half weeks. At what age will the breeder have a better sense of personalities? This is a pretty small litter, two boys and two girls.


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## DHau (Feb 24, 2007)

$1,000 is about the average asking price for a well-bred dog depending on the kennel's reputation.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: SunCzarinaThis makes me a bit nervous
> 
> from http://altebaumkennel.com/pages/puppies.html
> 
> ...


The way I read and intrepret this is that they have had the female come up empty and once they got a litter, planned on rebreeding her immediately to keep her repro organs functioning - not uncommon. I would come to a conclusion that the reason they got the female (that she was sold by her previous owner) was that she was not the easiest producer. That is an assumption on my part, not a fact.

Many people with their own males do things "naturally" - no blood testing every other day, just go by the behavior of the dogs before allowing them to mate. 

The kennel owner likes a hard, strong dog - everyone's vision of what exactly that means is a bit different!!!!!! I knew that Cinto was a pretty nice dog, but he passed away. A few people have remarked that Ghost is nice - pedigree wise, working wise. Have not heard particulars. 

I think $1000 is a bit low pricing for working lines - but if female has no titles then the price SHOULD be - IMO - lower than for a pup from a female with titles - and a pup from a female/male without progeny to evalauate or lower level titles should be lower than for progeny from proven parents - ie higher titles and produced titled progeny.


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

I have seen a bitch from this kennel a few times at SDA tracking events. I'm pretty sure her sire is Cinto..not sure of the dam. She was a nice little bitch, super temperament, very outgoing, social, very high drives. SUPER nice tracking dog. Her owner does schutzhund, AKC obedience, SDA and does well in all 3.


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## Shavy (Feb 12, 2009)

> Originally Posted By: Wolfstraum
> The way I read and intrepret this is that they have had the female come up empty and once they got a litter, planned on rebreeding her immediately to keep her repro organs functioning - not uncommon. I would come to a conclusion that the reason they got the female (that she was sold by her previous owner) was that she was not the easiest producer. That is an assumption on my part, not a fact.


I'll inquire and see what he says.



> Quote:
> I think $1000 is a bit low pricing for working lines - but if female has no titles then the price SHOULD be - IMO - lower than for a pup from a female with titles - and a pup from a female/male without progeny to evalauate or lower level titles should be lower than for progeny from proven parents - ie higher titles and produced titled progeny.


The dam is a SchH I, sire is SchH III. I will ask if he can work the dogs when I go. 

[/quote]


> Originally Posted By: TRITONI have seen a bitch from this kennel a few times at SDA tracking events. I'm pretty sure her sire is Cinto..not sure of the dam. She was a nice little bitch, super temperament, very outgoing, social, very high drives. SUPER nice tracking dog. Her owner does schutzhund, AKC obedience, SDA and does well in all 3.


I'm glad to hear that other dogs he've produced (even not from this pair) are nice, and that dogs he's owned were said to be nice also. It makes me more confident in his ability to spot/nurture/produce talent.

I really like this breeder, from what I have seen thus far. I've pretty much made up my mind that this is who I'll be going with. He told me he wants to wait until the puppies are vacc'd before I come out to see them, so I'll have a few weeks to wait impatiently.









Here's a link to the website of one of his puppies - this pooch does everything!

http://www.britagsd.com/2008/06/just-facts.html


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## TRITON (May 10, 2005)

Brita is actually the one I've seen a few times


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