# Good article on positive reinforcement research



## Parsifal (Feb 1, 2006)

This is not specifically dog related, but here is an interesting article about how "The Carrot Approach" affects the brain...." a team headed by Dr. Burkhard Pleger of the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences, Leipzig, and the University College London have demonstrated that the "reward effect" not only supports the improvement of higher cognitive abilities, but also how brain function in the cortex can be enhanced."

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090727203624.htm


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## LisaT (Feb 7, 2005)

Thanks for the link.

Folks that use more positive reinforcement often claim that their dogs are better learners and better problem solvers. Interesting to see some research that backs that up!!


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: LisaTFolks that use more positive reinforcement often claim that their dogs are better learners and better problem solvers. Interesting to see some research that backs that up!!


Research or no, you can see the difference clear as day in a dog that is taught obedience in a positive way through luring, marking and only withholding reward for non performance and a dog that is compulsed into compliance. The first dog is ACTIVELY learning and continues to offer up behavior in order to get a reward. The second dog offers nothing and is just trying to avoid pain. One method promotes thought and problem solving, the other stomps it out.


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## Caledon (Nov 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSD
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LisaTFolks that use more positive reinforcement often claim that their dogs are better learners and better problem solvers. Interesting to see some research that backs that up!!
> ...


I agree. I can see that in my own dog. I'm postive, my husband not so positive. With me it's Dakota come, with him it's "get over here" in an angry voice. She comes both times, but with me it is all cheeful, fast, and a nice sit in front. With him its slinking down with a down in front, ears back.

A friend of his did this too (male) - Get over here - my dog listened (although I wished she didn't) and slinked over, ears back. I didn't say a thing and kept my anger inside.


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## aubie (Dec 22, 2008)

Positive reinforcement also helps the bond between owner/dog, which MAKES the dog WANT to do what you want. That's irreplacable and no matter or means of harsh training can do that.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Do you consider a regular leash correction and/or the verbal command "No" to be coercion and punishmet?


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

Absolutely not if it's done in a situation like say I told my dog in firm tone to "leave it" when he barked at another dog and he didn't, I pop his collar and say nien. How else is the dog supposed to learn? I dunno, technically I suppose it's a punishment for not listening the first time but I'm not one of those weinies who begs their dogs to listen. I'll say it nice the first time, they don't listen, they're getting a correction.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

> Originally Posted By: codmasterDo you consider a regular leash correction and/or the verbal command "No" to be coercion and punishmet?


A leash pop is compulsion. The verbal command "No" can be quite negative depending upon the dog and most importantly the tone of voice and volume. 

The important word to focus on in my post is "TAUGHT". There is a time and place for correction. In my opinion, that time and place is when proofing exercises that the dog completely understands. I was specifically talking about trainers that teach exercises using compulsion - a dog is "learning" by trying to avoid correction resulting in an overall poor attitude in work and a reactive dog as opposed to an active dog that is offering up behaviors in effort to get a reward. I trained my first dog this way. I was wrong. I didn't know any better.

My dogs know 100% what sit and look mean. If they are too focused on another dog and decide to ignore those commands they will be corrected for it. But when I teach them something new, if it's a relatively simple exercise I will set up a situation where I can lure them into the behavior in question and mark that over and over. Once I KNOW that they will offer the behavior in question I add the command word as I lure them and mark that - over and over. Once I know they understand the command and my expectations I then add distraction and expect performance. Then is when I add correction. If it's a more complex exercise, you just do the same thing but break it up into pieces.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

How do you determine when they "know" an exercise?


BTW, in our local obedience club (of which I am the newly elected president) the general feeling among the instructors seem to be "we are positive reinforcement only" to an extreme and they tend to frown on ANY leash correction and even harsh words. of course they also do not have or train themselves big sometimes agressive dogs either for the most part. I had one of them tell me soon after I joined that "there is no such thing as a stubborn dog, only trainers who haven't figured out how to teach that dog". AARRGGHHH!


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## SunCzarina (Nov 24, 2000)

> Originally Posted By: codmaster I had one of them tell me soon after I joined that "there is no such thing as a stubborn dog, only trainers who haven't figured out how to teach that dog". AARRGGHHH!


It's entirely possible that disagreeing with this statement has something to do with your recent election win.


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## big_dog7777 (Apr 6, 2004)

I determine a dog knows an exercise when they will perform the exercise consistently in response to a verbal command without distraction of any kind. I issue correction only when my dogs choose to ignore a command they understand to either do something else they'd rather do or just flat out not perform. If a dog offers a different behavior (usually a different trained behavior) then I withhold reward and say "nope" in a matter of fact voice and start again. Offering different behavior is simply a mistake or a sign of confusion from the dog and I don't believe correcting for simple mistakes or confusion fair. 

I agree more with the "no stubborn dogs" MUCH more than I disagree with it. If a dog has motivation of any kind (food, toy, pack, etc.) then "stubborn" is a result of training methodology - not genetics.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: ZeusGSDI determine a dog knows an exercise when they will perform the exercise consistently in response to a verbal command without distraction of any kind. I issue correction only when my dogs choose to ignore a command they understand to either do something else they'd rather do or just flat out not perform.


If a dog refuses a command, I take a step back and figure out WHY the dog is not responding the way I would like. Most likely the dog has just not learned the command well enough yet and needs more practice/training, or the environment was too distracting and I need to do more work with distractions or more work in that environment.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

deletd


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

I can not argue with "positive reinforcement" as all trainers seem to use it. I do have an issue with those who advocate "positive Reinforcement ONLY". i.e. no corrections ever and not even a harsh word or two.

Doesn't work too well I don't believe. You need to tell a dog (or person for that matter) when he/she is doing something wrong as well as when they are doing te right thing! 

Remember when you were being shown how to drive a car - how long would it have taken you to learn if you were only praised/rewarded when you did something right and never corrected or told when you did something wrong? How would you have told someone that they MUST look behind at the traffic coming BEFORE you pull out into the traffic lane? How many fender benders are you willing to accept?

A proper correction is not "PUNISHMENT" (or mean either) like so many trainers seem to think. A quick "POP" followed by a number of "GOOD BOY"s when Baron gets it right does not seem to negatively affect him at all!


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## norske (Aug 28, 2009)

This sure seems to pop up on dog forums on a regular basis doesn't it?

I began using Koehler, Stickland et al techniques as many have and being a handler in the Army, that was the norm. That was 36 years ago and that stage only lasted for a few months until I found a book by Rudd Weatherwax in 1973. 

As a retired psychologist I used to teach "positive discipline" techniques for parents in how to raise their children. Having 5 kids of my own I was able to practise what I preached with good results.

Interestingly, how a person views authority and their political make up comes to play with what modalities they prefer to use in training.
There are some fascinating studies that relate to this.

In a nutshell it comes down to this, at least for me. If I can achieve the same or better results using only "positive" methods, why resort to any "negative" or harsh techniques? Not that a firm word doesn't come in handy every now and then. And yes, I've worked with some dandy's in the worst dog dept. Just my sense of things that work for me. Peace


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