# Did I make a huge mistake? (sit means sit)



## Gonzo

I found this forum from google searches, and apparently I just made a huge mistake for my dog? We will be starting in the coming weeks.

I have a 1.5 year old female GSD. She has leash reactivity issues to other dogs. I tried a positive only trainer and she only lasted halfway through our second session before the trainer ended up refunding my money and telling me I needed to find a behaviorist. She was scared of my dog. 

My dog is wonderful and a joy to have around. She is a very "Grab life by the horns" kind of dog. She has a wonderful personality, but she also will chase anything that moves. I want to be able to take her more places with me and keep her under control without constantly micromanaging the environment. We want to have fun! But we are a bit stuck, as just a walk around the neighborhood can be challenging.

So I did look up behaviorists. But the few I was rec. to were...very expensive per session. Like $4-900 per session expensive, with no promises. From what I understand, this would take several sessions at least. Ouch! 

I also looked into Schutzhund or ringsport clubs, but they almost all use ecollars too. It seems to be the secret???

So I just did a bunch of it on my own, but I am still over my head. I am a big fan of Ellis, as well as all of the big name positive trainers. We tried BAT, counter conditioning...which helped at a distance. We have also used the c.a.r.e protocol.

I was not making much progress until I used a pinch collar, honestly. That suggestion was also on this forum. Now we can be within 20 feet of other dogs with no drama, but if the other dog is staring her down or barking she still loses it. She makes an effort to turn away from the other dog, or offer me sit/down before I correct her most of the time, which I reward.

So I saw the sit means sit people at my local market. They had dogs just chillin' with them and behaving well. They did not seem scared or anything, but I did notice the ecollars on the dogs. They offered a free consult so I said w/e, why not.

The trainer who showed up had a perfect little mal, who was off lead and impressive and yada yada, even with my dog barking at him. I could not tell when he was shocking the dog, but what do I know (I have never used an ecollar). He seemed really up to date on training stuff, and was happy I was already doing marker training and knew who Michael Ellis was. He encouraged me to continue with that, but I still signed up for classes (NOT CHEAP but supposedly life long lessons?) out of desperation/fear of my dog ever being able to attack another dog/family pressure.

I had looked up their yelp reviews, which were all glowing. I know people who used their training, and they were happy/dogs were happy.
But now I have seen other stuff, including on this forum, that suggests I have done the wrong thing. I am having a lot of anxiety over all of this. I am apparently going to turn my dog into a neurotic beast who is too afraid to do anything.

I don't know what else to do. He said we would work positively, but 'proof' her obedience with the ecollar. Him and the other trainers do bite work. I put the ecollar on, and even at the higher levels it was just...unpleasant. Not really painful though, just uncomfortable. I have put a prong on myself and that hurt more (yes, I wanted to make sure I could feel what I was going to do to my dog).

I have done some research on ecollars, and it seems intimidating and as opinionated as other forms of dog training. :surprise:

I have read Lou Castles website, and it seems quite reasonable though...

I am a newbie to ecollar training (but not dog training, I have had several GSDs) and just want to do what is best for the both of us. 

p.s. I wish I could e-mail everyone who reads this some cookies for reading this doozy of a post.

Thank you for your time!


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## Castlemaid

Hi Gonzo, welcome to the forum. 

First of all, relax and BREATHE!! I think you are just twisting yourself into a know over stuff you read that may or may not apply to your situation. 

Sit means Sit is a franchise, so anyone, even someone with absolutely no dog training experience can buy into it, take their training course (which is e-collar training), and set themselves up as a "professional" dog trainer. So in general, not something that we would recommend. 

However, you can find some very good, very experienced, very knowledgeable trainers who are SMS trainers. It's a good way for someone to set themselves up in the business with a well-known name behind them for exposure. 

If the trainer's dog looked happy and engaged with the guy, I'm saying he is most likely using low-stim training, wich is like what Lou Castle does. I think he can help you if you give him a chance. I can't see what is going on with your dog, so I may be wrong, but a dog like yours needs clear boundries as to what behaviours are acceptable, and which ones are not, and 100% positive has its limits in that regard as you have found out. 

I say try him out, he's not going to 'wreck' your dog unless he slaps the ecollar on and zaps him constantly at max power until your dog screams for mercy over and over again, and you are not going to let that happen anyways.

I also think that your dog can benefit from a few well-timed corrections, so don't freak if this trainer does this - use your judgement and gut feeling on this. 

You could ask him for references - or ask to sit in and watch him work with another client. But if he is a Michael Ellis fan, you are probably in good hands.


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## selzer

Either that or he is a salesman. A salesman knows how to tell you what you want to hear. Kind of like a good fortune teller can read you and say things that in general would apply, and would most likely apply to you. It's possible. 

Having the dog there, happy and engaged isn't a sales pitch. 

The free for all I was at over the weekend had a lot of young dogs. My friend uses the e-collars for an electric fence, so her dogs don't get tore up by the neighbor's dog. She uses it with her youngest if her youngest will not stop pestering the older dogs. Some of the other pups had e-collars on and all but one seemed happy and confident. Most are using the same trainer. 

Only one of the dogs seemed to be of a softer personality, not familiar with playing with other dogs, and when they zapped her with the collar, she flinched badly. 

They seem to be similar to the power steering that the prong collar has become. I think they can be used properly. They can easily be abused. You still have to get the timing right, and you might as well give a correction with your voice or with a prong collar. I think people like it, because they can remove the leash aspect and still correct. Leashes can cause issues with other dogs. So can correction collars.

Personally, I wonder what people's expectations are with a dog. Do you expect the dog to run and play with dogs it doesn't know? Do you expect the dog to walk down the street without reacting to another dog -- just ignoring it. Some dogs are naturally more social than others, and trying to fit a square dog into a round hole might be unfair to the dog and difficult for you. So you have to land somewhere between what you want and what you need when it comes to a dog. I might want my dog to run and play with all dogs, I might need my dog to work with me during a dog show -- walk by hundreds of dogs without acting like an idiot. And where I might land is a dog that can do the dog show thing, and maybe play with a few dogs he knows, but isn't a good candidate for doggy day care. 

Sometimes when we let go of our expectations for the dog we want, and start focusing on the needs of the dog we have, we can be more relaxed in those situations that we take the dog into and the dog can become more relaxed, and we can make good progress. 

Sometimes. 

I agree that sometimes a good correction will help right a dog derailing dog. 

Good luck with your dog. You can find good trainers hiding all over. I even saw one decked out in a PetsMart cloak once.


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## Thecowboysgirl

I read it to say, the guy knew who ME was, not that he was a fan? 

My vote would be to watch this guy work with new client's dogs, NOT his demo dog. I think you absolutely owe it to your dog to really know what this guy is like with a remote in his hand before you let him do it to your dog.

Listen for him to be talking about how to avoid superstitious behavior, notice if he starts a new dog on remote with other dogs nearby or in a busy place.

Better yet, get the Ellis E Collar DVDs and listen to what he says about it and then see how this guy measures up to that.

I think there are definitely E Collar trainers out there who are too heavy handed because it has the capability of getting quick, dramatic results for frustrated pet owners. Can also result in fallout which you are aware of.


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## SunCzarina

I believe in balance training but my 3 y/o girl is taking a Feisty Fido class at a positive only school. 

She got a prong collar when she was about 6 months old but we don't use it in Feisty because the trainer doesn't want her to get a correction for reacting to another dog. I've never had a shepherd who didn't respond to a 'NO stop being a jerk' type of correction. Over threshold or she's just kinda soft like that. 

What we focus on doing in Feisty is my helping her. Reading her before she reacts. Teaching her what to do, how to think and how to react appropriately without my telling her what to do. That was a huge revelation for me, the connection I was missing. She had SA, she used to sleep practically ontop of me until she was 2 1/2.

She's was expecting me to help her all this time and I was giving her corrections. It's a process, we'll probably have to repeat the class for her to get to a level I'm happy with.


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## GSD2

I just wanted to share an experience my niece had with SMS. She signed up with SMS and told us about the experience. I would never use them, due to her experience, but I have read some good things on this forum with other people being happy with them. 

My advice would be to be careful. As you were, my niece was very impressed with the trainer that came to their house and his demo dog. She was very excited to get started. On the first lesson someone else came for the lesson. She was not real impressed with this new trainer, I think she decided to give it a try, also I think she thought she had no choice anyway, having a contract. She did say SMS ruined her dog. Get the trainer you want or keep trying until you do, don't put up with some newbie that shows up if that happens to you, keep at it until they assign you a trainer that you are happy with, hopefully it will be the trainer you met with.........good luck.


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## SuperG

Gonzo,

Been there...done that....if your dog comes up the leash at ya when using the e-collar.....go to a dominant dog collar and someone that really knows how to properly use one. I have one dog reactive bitch of a GSD.....the DDC and the way I was instructed to use it somewhat lines up with Lou's protocol......the correction is more of an environmental consequence rather than a correction for defiance of a handler's command ( because none is issued ) but yet the reward for proper behavior is always there. It has worked the best of all methods I have tried.

One cannot tell you... without seeing your dog... what exactly needs to be done because dogs and their quirks are varied. However, when you find the right combination of correction, reward, training and getting your dog to seriously engage you....you can get your dog where you want it. 

SuperG


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## MustLoveGSDs

I am a trainer with SMS. I have posted some videos up of my dogs here with the remote collar. Our method is attention, the power of touch via the remote collar and our collars are specially designed for us using TENS medical unit technology. These are not the cheap shock collars you can pick up in any chain store or online which are used as correction and deterrents. Depending on where it is placed on your body would also illicit different feeling of response. I test it on my hand and that is where I have all my clients feel it, I can feel it more in some areas than others of my hand. In some areas it moves my muscle and others it does not, same on a dog's neck. Every SMS operates under the same methodology but it is a franchise so each location is going to offer something a little different. We do not use corrections at all. It is used as a gas pedal, steering wheel, or brake. I can speed my dogs up to motivate them and increase drive (think of a crowd using their energy to cheer on marathon runners), I can slow them down, I can move them in different directions. It is the 21st century leash. I have a ton of remote collar videos I can share with you, there is also a remote collar training facebook group that was started by SMS and is a very active group with over 7k members where you can see stories, videos, and photos of trainers, clients, franchise owners, and people just enjoying life with their remote collar trained dogs. Recently there was a woman in the group who posted about the same concerns you did because she started listening to all the naysayers tell her to stay away and remote collar training will ruin her dog, she did the free eval and enjoyed it and loved the trainer and signed up:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/623415091098477/


"I had looked up their yelp reviews, which were all glowing. I know people who used their training, and they were happy/dogs were happy.
But now I have seen other stuff, including on this forum, that suggests I have done the wrong thing. I am having a lot of anxiety over all of this. I am apparently going to turn my dog into a neurotic beast who is too afraid to do anything."

If your dog turns into that then you are doing something wrong. Any training aid can be misused so that is why it is important to go to someone who knows what they are doing. SMS is a dog training company and remote collar trainer specialists. This is the majority of what we do. As a company we train over 1500 dogs a month across the country, take into the account the bad reviews and compare them to the number of positive ones. There are going to be bad apples in every bunch in any company and those apples will be dealt with appropriately. Once a year we do a continuing education week in Las Vegas where we are in class every day with different trainers and owners within the company from across the nation and learning and staying up to date with our craft and working each other's dogs and helping each other. SMS may not be for everyone, like any trainer out there, but for the ones we help I can seen amazing transformations and results. I train pet dogs with this collar 40+ hours a week. I encourage anyone to check out different trainers, watch them demo their dog or a client's dog, and watch them show a change in your dog. You have got to find one you click with. 


My neurotic beasts 

My bitch is in PSA and my male is a therapy dog. They are in public constantly so good manners are a must.












My Siberian Husky is also my off leash demo dog. She was the typical husky that would run away, bolt at any given chance, dart into and across traffic, pull on leash, drag me down, she has killed cats..this is her after a couple months of ever being on a remote collar.


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## SuperG

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I am a trainer with SMS. I have posted some videos up of my dogs here with the remote collar. Our method is attention, the power of touch via the remote collar and our collars are specially designed for us using TENS medical unit technology. These are not the cheap shock collars you can pick up in any chain store or online which are used as correction and deterrents. Depending on where it is placed on your body would also illicit different feeling of response. I test it on my hand and that is where I have all my clients feel it, I can feel it more in some areas than others of my hand. In some areas it moves my muscle and others it does not, same on a dog's neck. Every SMS operates under the same methodology but it is a franchise so each location is going to offer something a little different. We do not use corrections at all. It is used as a gas pedal, steering wheel, or brake. I can speed my dogs up to motivate them and increase drive (think of a crowd using their energy to cheer on marathon runners), I can slow them down, I can move them in different directions. It is the 21st century leash. I have a ton of remote collar videos I can share with you, there is also a remote collar training facebook group that was started by SMS and is a very active group with over 7k members where you can see stories, videos, and photos of trainers, clients, franchise owners, and people just enjoying life with their remote collar trained dogs. Recently there was a woman in the group who posted about the same concerns you did because she started listening to all the naysayers tell her to stay away and remote collar training will ruin her dog, she did the free eval and enjoyed it and loved the trainer and signed up:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/623415091098477/
> 
> 
> "I had looked up their yelp reviews, which were all glowing. I know people who used their training, and they were happy/dogs were happy.
> But now I have seen other stuff, including on this forum, that suggests I have done the wrong thing. I am having a lot of anxiety over all of this. I am apparently going to turn my dog into a neurotic beast who is too afraid to do anything."
> 
> If your dog turns into that then you are doing something wrong. Any training aid can be misused so that is why it is important to go to someone who knows what they are doing. SMS is a dog training company and remote collar trainer specialists. This is the majority of what we do. As a company we train over 1500 dogs a month across the country, take into the account the bad reviews and compare them to the number of positive ones. There are going to be bad apples in every bunch in any company and those apples will be dealt with appropriately. Once a year we do a continuing education week in Las Vegas where we are in class every day with different trainers and owners within the company from across the nation and learning and staying up to date with our craft and working each other's dogs and helping each other. SMS may not be for everyone, like any trainer out there, but for the ones we help I can seen amazing transformations and results. I train pet dogs with this collar 40+ hours a week. I encourage anyone to check out different trainers, watch them demo their dog or a client's dog, and watch them show a change in your dog. You have got to find one you click with.
> 
> 
> My neurotic beasts
> 
> My bitch is in PSA and my male is a therapy dog. They are in public constantly so good manners are a must.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Siberian Husky is also my off leash demo dog. She was the typical husky that would run away, bolt at any given chance, dart into and across traffic, pull on leash, drag me down, she has killed cats..this is her after a couple months of ever being on a remote collar.


Specifically.....what is your protocol regarding the use of an e-collar for dog reactivity?


SuperG


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## MustLoveGSDs

SuperG said:


> Specifically.....what is your protocol regarding the use of an e-collar for dog reactivity?
> 
> 
> SuperG


I teach attention because if I cannot get and do not have the dog's attention then I have nothing. Same for any issue a dog presents with. Attention and confidence building. I do not yank and crank the leash, no corrections because forcing a dog to obey isn't fun for the dog or myself and it really doesn't teach the dog anything, when I get my clients using a long line it really makes them realize how much of a crutch the leash is and how little their dog actually understands how to communicate with them. I do not say no, off, leave it. I get attention and I tell the dog what I want them to do. If a dog is sitting and paying attention to me it cannot try and get at another dog. I don't care if it wants to bite or attack the dog, I don't care if a dog wants to run and jump on or bite a human, it can only do that if I tell it to. We train a ton of reactive and aggressive dogs and we run some of the biggest group classes in the country where we are working reactive and DA/HA dogs around other dogs and people without issue. Attention and being able to clearly communicate with the dog is the foundation of it all. I am training a dog reactive GSD now, when I finish the video I will share it. I've got one more lesson with them and then they will be in group class.

My black Doberman bitch was very dog reactive.


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## Romay

@MustLoveGSDs I feel you are the appropriate one to ask given the state of your SMS experience. I have some questions.

If you do this sort of training, then does that mean the dogs have to be with the e-collar for their entire life? 

How do they act if you command them without the device?

As the owner do you have to have the remote on you at all times for their entire life? 

What if the dog has a heart condition? 

And you say it is about communication not correction, so is it vibration or is electric pulses? 
Most people frown on the idea of 'shocking' their dogs, and these collars I assume have come a long way since and I would appreciate if you could take a moment to answer my questions.

I do not believe dogs who are fearful would benefit from 'e collars', but you have lots of experience. The dogs people say got ruined and turned neurotic, is it possible this occurred because the dogs were softer and more fearful and this method did not turn out well for them? 

Can these collars over time damage their necks (if it is vibration or electric pulses)?

What about hair loss? 

Once again sorry for all the questions but I really want to get my facts straight. It's frustrating digging for vague answers I prefer to actually ask a person who knows their stuff.


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## SuperG

MustLoveGSDs said:


> I teach attention because if I cannot get and do not have the dog's attention then I have nothing. Same for any issue a dog presents with. Attention and confidence building. I do not yank and crank the leash, no corrections because forcing a dog to obey isn't fun for the dog or myself and it really doesn't teach the dog anything, when I get my clients using a long line it really makes them realize how much of a crutch the leash is and how little their dog actually understands how to communicate with them. I do not say no, off, leave it. I get attention and I tell the dog what I want them to do. If a dog is sitting and paying attention to me it cannot try and get at another dog. I don't care if it wants to bite or attack the dog, I don't care if a dog wants to run and jump on or bite a human, it can only do that if I tell it to. We train a ton of reactive and aggressive dogs and we run some of the biggest group classes in the country where we are working reactive and DA/HA dogs around other dogs and people without issue. Attention and being able to clearly communicate with the dog is the foundation of it all. I am training a dog reactive GSD now, when I finish the video I will share it. I've got one more lesson with them and then they will be in group class.
> 
> My black Doberman bitch was very dog reactive.


Thanks....I like your reply ala Ed Frawley....."if you don't have a dog's engagement, you have nothing". I agree with your answer as a part of modifying DA....

SuperG


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## MustLoveGSDs

Romay said:


> @MustLoveGSDs I feel you are the appropriate one to ask given the state of your SMS experience. I have some questions.
> 
> If you do this sort of training, then does that mean the dogs have to be with the e-collar for their entire life?
> 
> How do they act if you command them without the device?
> 
> As the owner do you have to have the remote on you at all times for their entire life?
> 
> What if the dog has a heart condition?
> 
> And you say it is about communication not correction, so is it vibration or is electric pulses?
> Most people frown on the idea of 'shocking' their dogs, and these collars I assume have come a long way since and I would appreciate if you could take a moment to answer my questions.
> 
> I do not believe dogs who are fearful would benefit from 'e collars', but you have lots of experience. The dogs people say got ruined and turned neurotic, is it possible this occurred because the dogs were softer and more fearful and this method did not turn out well for them?
> 
> Can these collars over time damage their necks (if it is vibration or electric pulses)?
> 
> What about hair loss?
> 
> Once again sorry for all the questions but I really want to get my facts straight. It's frustrating digging for vague answers I prefer to actually ask a person who knows their stuff.


No need to apologize! These are all really great questions and ones I answer often for people. Very valid concerns. I have to run out and get dinner but I will answer your questions when I return


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## MustLoveGSDs

SuperG said:


> Thanks....I like your reply ala Ed Frawley....."if you don't have a dog's engagement, you have nothing". I agree with your answer as a part of modifying DA....
> 
> SuperG


You are welcome. There are many roads that can lead to the same path. The dog owner just needs to find the road they agree and are comfortable with and what gets the desired results. Some people are of the vehement thought that you should never use remote collars to do behavior modification training with a dog. I do that every single day with success. I will never trash talk another trainer's methods unless they are outright abusing the dog, but I will encourage people to check out different trainers before making a choice. SMS is not cheap but a big part of the value is lifetime training and we sell results, not hope.


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## Baillif

:rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2::rolleyes2:


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## MustLoveGSDs

Romay said:


> @MustLoveGSDs I feel you are the appropriate one to ask given the state of your SMS experience. I have some questions.
> 
> If you do this sort of training, then does that mean the dogs have to be with the e-collar for their entire life?
> _*You can apply this question to any training aid. Do you plan on having to use a head halter, prong collar, slip lead, martingale, no pull harness, etc for the rest of the dog's life? The goal is to get the dog off all equipment, the owner needs to be realistic in regards to the dog's issue and manageability and their consistency in training. You might not have the same training goals as I do with my own dogs as the next 10 people have for their dogs. Not every dog is going to be able to have flashy competition level off leash obedience and that is ok. Some dogs can only be managed to a point so know thy dog and thy abilities. For my dogs, I want the only reason I need to have a leash on them is because of a leash law. Because I care about my dogs, I always take them out with the collar on in public because though I cannot control the environment, I want to have measures in place to be able to control my dog if any number of situations arise. When I compete with my dogs they cannot wear any training aids. There is a SMS trainer/owner who has a PSA 3 dog, the dog obviously cannot wear the collar in a trial. There are many SMS trainers out there who do various sports with their dogs* _
> 
> How do they act if you command them without the device?
> _*The point of the collar is to tap into a clear line of communication with your dog. We are pairing this with voice and power of touch(power of touch and hand signals if working with a deaf dog). With consistency the dog will understand without the collar in time. During the training phase if they only feel the stim some of the time, they will never get comfortable with it as attention, it will be working more as a correction then which defeats the purpose at least with our method. *_
> 
> As the owner do you have to have the remote on you at all times for their entire life?
> _*See above. There are some pet owners who say they will put the collar on their dog without it being on and not being used and their dog will listen, but for me personally I do not want a collar smart dog, that is not effective training for my standards.*_
> 
> What if the dog has a heart condition?
> _*The collar is not connected to the heart and does not affect it. It is worn high on the neck behind the ears and stimulates the muscles of the neck. I have trained old dogs with heart problems and dogs with history of seizures without issue. I would be more concerned and observant of not stressing the dog out so if it is a very nervous and fearful dog I am working with that would alligator roll and scream with just a leash on and someone other than the owner handling the dog, I am going to really decrease my expectations and effort in the beginning. Pulling the leash on a regular collar with constant tension and hitting the end of the leash trying to eat other dogs and people can cause a ton of stress which is why people need to get that under control. *_
> 
> And you say it is about communication not correction, so is it vibration or is electric pulses?
> Most people frown on the idea of 'shocking' their dogs, and these collars I assume have come a long way since and I would appreciate if you could take a moment to answer my questions.
> _*I frown on the idea of shocking dogs too, that sound terrible and painful. I use the level that gets the dog's attention. The collar essentially has 3 levels..too low, too high, just right. I am able to show the owner this when having them feel it and when using it on their dog in the demo. I had a family of 5 come in last week. The husband felt the collar at a 6, wife at a 3, daughter at a 5, son at a 4(our collars go from 1-7). I do not like using vibration because it is much more intense than the lower levels of the collar, most dogs do not even feel a 1-3 but all dogs can feel the vibration and I have seen it really startle and scare dogs. You are also not able to feel a variation with the vibration, it is all the same, which can cause problems when the dog is super distracted by something and does not pay attention with the vibration. Some people like to use the tone feature before a stim. That's like getting the belt out and telling your kids they are about to get whipped. Again, we don't use the collar as a correction tool. *_
> 
> I do not believe dogs who are fearful would benefit from 'e collars', but you have lots of experience. The dogs people say got ruined and turned neurotic, is it possible this occurred because the dogs were softer and more fearful and this method did not turn out well for them?
> _*A lot of people have rescue dogs that are nervous and fearful. The biggest thing with these guys is confidence building. I trained a westie mix who was dog reactive and a fear biter of dogs and people. During the eval she alligator rolled, emptied her bowels, and screamed, and this was all from putting a leash on her and walking her away from her owner, not even using the collar at that point. She completed the program and now when I see her for follow up lessons she runs to greet me with kisses and the client is very happy and has seen such a huge improvement. The previous "positive only" trainer the guy tried before didn't help the dog and they told him to just remove her from other dogs and people, essentially bubble wrapping her from life which would only cause her to sit in isolation and pour out anxiety. Though it was tough for the client to watch how his dog was in the eval, he also told us that we have done more for his dog in 10 minutes than any other trainer he has tried. By the end of the eval we had the dog loose leash coming to us and getting on a boundary without saying a word to the dog..all with the power of touch as attention. The people who say remote collars will ruin dogs have never trained a dog using them the way trainers like us do. Most people think it is all "bad dog zap" and they are severely limiting themselves in knowledge and skill, and you should absolutely never let people like that get anywhere near you dog with the collar. *_
> 
> Can these collars over time damage their necks (if it is vibration or electric
> 
> What about hair loss?
> _*If the collar is misused (ie leaving it in one spot for too long) it can cause hot spots, sores, hair loss, which can lead to secondary bacterial infections. Some dogs have more sensitive skin than others and some have allergies which can cause problems, there are hypo contact points to help in those cases. *_
> 
> Once again sorry for all the questions but I really want to get my facts straight. It's frustrating digging for vague answers I prefer to actually ask a person who knows their stuff.
> 
> _*You are smart for going to the source  There are a lot of remote collar trainers out there and they are all a little different. SMS is putting content out there constantly and if you are in a big city chances are there is a SMS there. They usually have facebook pages and youtube channels where they post video content all the time. Check it out!*_


Hope this helps!


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## MustLoveGSDs

eta Timing is huge, just like with any training method. There is an Ian Dunbar photo floating around with the information: "To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need: a thorough understanding of canine behavior. A thorough understanding of learning theory. Impeccable timing. And if you have those three things you don't need a shock collar." The truth is if you don't have those three things you have no business training anyone's dogs. The collar doesn't train the dog, just as a prong, halter, martingale doesn't train a dog. It is a bridge between you and the dog. You can put a golf club in my hand and I am not going to golf like Tiger woods. When people come in with their dog dragging them on the leash trying to eat other dogs I tell them what will happen if they drop the leash. They do not have their dog's attention, they rely on the leash and force which is useless when they are not holding the end of it.


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## Chip18

Hmm ... I have no issues with E-Collars myself (when used properly) it seems most trainers are going that way and they have achieved good results. Still ... not my thing ... I like to employ the "KISS" principle and in that regard ... you don't need a "check book" to train your dog. You just need a "plan" and thes yo dogu saw "chilling out" ... no big deal ... I don't how "they" did it ... but it's called "The Place Command" and all rehab/training starts with that. In the post I'll link to everything you need to know about "Place" is in the "Fearful or Crazy" Boxer link. Also is "Sit on the Dog" and that's what you should do ... you take your dog on a short leash find a spot and "Sit" ... you don't need "tools" to do that. 


http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/7837361-post12.html

And whatever tool yor walking your walking your dog ... the "correction" is a slight tug sideways, not straight back and the correction needs to be given "before" the dog reacts, if the reaction has happened your to late turn around and walk away. Stuff on teaching your dog to ignore other dog can be found here:

Teach your Dog to ignore other dogs.  - Boxer Forum : Boxer Breed Dog Forums

It sounds like if your dog is in the habit of chasing anything that moves?? If that is the case ... rehab should start in the home ... no free roaming in the house no bed or furniture privileges, indoors the dog should be in "Place" or in there "Crate" period. IF you want a dog that knows how to "chill??" That is how you get there. 

And ME ... I listen to him all the time, I find him very "insightful" but I'm a family pet kinda guy and I don't find what he does very "practical" before "Dogs Behaving Badly" as it were. At anyrate ... you've already taken the first step in getting the dog you want and not the dog you have ... "out think" your dog.

I'm not a pro but when I found myself with 116 lbs of OS WL GSD on my hands that did not much care for people ... it was time to say:









And "we" got'er done, train "Place" and enforce a "No Free Roaming" in the house policy for 30 to 90 days ... your dog will form a "pattern" of "listening" to you, and everything else will become "easier" once that happens. And the "requirements for "corrections" will decrease. "Out think" your dog" as always ... ask questions and welcome aboard.


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## Romay

MustLoveGSDs said:


> Hope this helps!


Thank you so much for your responses! I feel a lot better now about entertaining the idea of SMS should I decide to use it. 

So you put the collar in a diff rotation on the neck each time you use it? (Also how expensive are the collars? And just so you know I would never buy a collar without an instructor to teach me, as I have ZERO experience operating one effectively and I am under no illusions that they can be used without proper teaching.)


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## MustLoveGSDs

Romay said:


> Thank you so much for your responses! I feel a lot better now about entertaining the idea of SMS should I decide to use it.
> 
> So you put the collar in a diff rotation on the neck each time you use it? (Also how expensive are the collars? And just so you know I would never buy a collar without an instructor to teach me, as I have ZERO experience operating one effectively and I am under no illusions that they can be used without proper teaching.)


You are very welcome. The collar should be rotated every 2-3 hours, taken off at night when the dog is sleeping and if the owner is gone and not around to push the button. Our collars are close to $300 and are included in our training programs. We also sell them individually for cheaper in the case of a multi dog house. You can sync up to 3 collars on one remote. What city are you near?


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## Steve Strom

Don't get too caught up on the tool or the terminology. As the name says, sit means sit. Don't lose sight of what your trying to train and become dependent on the collar Romay. There's no magic to it. You press the button, dog complies, you release the button. You may adjust a little here and there to match your dogs temperament a little better, but whether your looking for attention or a sit, its still the same thing. Release of and avoidance of the stim.


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## Steve Strom

Gonzo said:


> I found this forum from google searches, and apparently I just made a huge mistake for my dog? We will be starting in the coming weeks.
> !


Here's something to read Gonzo. This is where most of the development of this stuff was done:

http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/rffintro.html


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## MustLoveGSDs

Steve Strom said:


> You may adjust a little here and there to match your dogs temperament a little better, but whether your looking for attention or a sit, its still the same thing. Release of and avoidance of the stim.


That is one way to use the collar and the way most people think of when they hear "shock collar". That is the complete opposite of how SMS uses the collar though. We want engagement and attention, never want the stim to be a correction or deterrant. The stim means attention, we pair it with voice and touch, hand signals if its a deaf dog. We do not use it as a comply so the feeling goes away. I do not want my dog to be obedient because he is in fear of the stim or making a mistake.


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## Steve Strom

How do you start them?


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## Baillif

They use the collars pretty much the same as everyone else. It's negative reinforcement and out of necessity the beginning of that is positive punishment for noncompliance if they're trying to get a behavior to happen. Don't get too caught up on their marketing and fast talk. They aren't any different from anyone else when it comes to cookie cutter franchise dog training. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. If it is done right it wont ruin a dog or make them neurotic or anything like that, but an E collar is an e collar. The dog by necessity doesn't like the sensation.


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## Steve Strom

Lol, I know that. Just once I'd like to hear one of them admit to turning up the dial too.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Steve Strom said:


> Lol, I know that. Just once I'd like to hear one of them admit to turning up the dial too.


My bitch was working on 6's and 7's on medium dog in the video I shared earlier. She understands collar pressure and I can increase engagement and drive with it, it does not shut her down. Some people are at 7's with a leash and have zero attention out of their dog. I don't get caught up on a number because I am always adjusting it, i pay attention to the dog not the number.


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## Romay

MustLoveGSDs said:


> You are very welcome. The collar should be rotated every 2-3 hours, taken off at night when the dog is sleeping and if the owner is gone and not around to push the button. Our collars are close to $300 and are included in our training programs. We also sell them individually for cheaper in the case of a multi dog house. You can sync up to 3 collars on one remote. What city are you near?


My closest city is Johnson City Tennessee.


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## SuperG

MustLoveGSDs said:


> My bitch was working on 6's and 7's on medium dog in the video I shared earlier.


The OP was inquiring about dog reactivity.....I'm curious....with a highly reactive dog...you get results with single digit stims when the dog has gone gonzo and a stim that low breaks the dog's intent on wanting to kill the other dog ? The e-collar I used had a 127 settings.....all obedience training I used about an 8-10 setting....however when the dog was doing it's reactive gig....it was a serious run up on the dial to get the dog to snap out of it's fixation on the other dog.....low stims just made it worse and ramped the dog up even more. Maybe your methods don't involve using a stim once the dog is locked on.....beats me.

SuperG


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## Steve Strom

This isn't a real exact answer to what you're asking G, but I don't think its such a bad thing sometimes if they know we've got 127.


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## MustLoveGSDs

Romay said:


> My closest city is Johnson City Tennessee.


There is a SMS in Knoxville. Jimmy Archuleta.


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## Muskeg

I had the same experience with the e-collar as Super G- sometimes you need to crank it up. I've even heard Michael Ellis say this.

I wonder how Sit Means Sit uses low - level to stop a dog from chasing deer? I don't think attention is always the answer, often but not always. 

I know some people aren't into listening to someone talk dog training science, but to the OP if you are educating yourself, this trainer discusses "low level" only and where it fails or isn't as effective and why.


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## SuperG

Muskeg said:


> I wonder how Sit Means Sit uses low - level to stop a dog from chasing deer?


Me too...and still waiting on how they use low level on DA.....it's probably a secret.

Great video...I really enjoyed listening to that guy....he makes good sense and I loved this line of his..." I didn't do it, the environment did it".

SuperG


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## Muskeg

Yeah, he makes a lot of sense. I've actually used some of his lectures to trouble shoot issues I've run into. 

I don't want or need my dogs' attention for an entire 5 hour run. Most of the time the dogs are free to just be dogs and companions, but there are some things they can not do that they really would enjoy. Like chasing deer or moose. 

Even when they are being dogs, I want them cueing in to me, but not an attention heel or anything of the sort. And I really don't want to be in any way depending on low-level stim to get that attention. The dogs are very bonded to me, they check in and they cue in to my body language and tone so much it is scary. So I'm not worried about our connection. Just, sometimes a deer is simply more motivating. They are dogs with a lot of prey drive. 

What really helped me figure out some stuff was watching the dogs' completely focus and switch their attention to the sound of a marmot whistle. Dogs would be trotting along, sniffing the air or whatever, and a marmot whistle would turn the dogs into focused, marmot finding machines. I was like, huh, I need to be the marmot. I need the dogs to be able to switch on that focus and attention to MY whistle. Because dogs can do that. Go from just chilling to high-drive focused is the blink of an eye (especially GSD and malinois types...). 

Lots of videos of trainers with dogs walking in a heel in a busy city, or whatnot, I don't find them super helpful. Because they depend on the dog constantly maintaining a "low level" (or sometimes very high level) focus on the trainer. I'd find that both exhausting and counter productive. 

I want my dogs to be able to explore their environment with freedom to think and make good decisions. Focused heel is reserved for competition or very specific scenarios (a tight pass of another dog for example). 

I have and would again crank up the e-collar with no commands at all for chasing deer, or similar. I go high from the start and I make it a learning experience. Sometimes that's the best way to go. 

Not bashing SMS, might be a good choice, but do think about what you want for your dog and how best to accomplish that. Training is training is training. E-collar doesn't make training itself easier- training is training- but it offers an excellent means to achieve reliable off lead control and there is not better tool to stop things like chasing.


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## Steve Strom

> I wonder how Sit Means Sit uses low - level to stop a dog from chasing deer?


Like this?


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## Blitzkrieg1

Its important to be honest in what we do as trainers. 
When I use an E Collar on the dog, I issue a command then create pressure which the dog then seeks to avoid by going to a learned safe behaviour (Ex: Recall) that I have taught him therefor making that behaviour more likely and the undesired alternate behaviour (Ex. not coming when called) less likely. I can also use it to create extinction in certain behaviours that need to be erradicated. 
What you quickly learn with E Collar, Prong collar or any device that is used for Neg Reenforcement is that once the dog has been in the system for a little bit he learns to cheat if you keep your levels to low. Instead of truly showing compliance to commands and offering the correct behaviour from start to finish, what he does is waits for the pressure. Then he relies on the pressure in order to be correct as opposed to actually applying himself to showing true obedience. He also becomes acclimated to the pressure meaning you end up having to use more intensity in the pressure to keep the dog correct. 
Thats why I quickly go to positive punishment once the dog shows a basic understanding of the desired behaviour and make him very accountable.

Example: Dog is taught heeling with prong collar pressure. Over time instead of actually watching the handler he just waits to feel the prong tighten on his neck before he adjusts his pace or direction in the heeling. This dog will not heel without the prong on his neck and needs pressure every 30 seconds to minute in order to be correct.
Go from low pressure to punishment and you quickly see a dog that becomes very interested in watching the handler and avoiding any sensation from the collar as opposed to relying on feeling it. The same principle applies to the e collar.

I use E Collars on reactive dog aggressive dogs all the time they are my bread and butter. They work better then the prong collar imo.

I make no excuses and tell no stories about what I do. I will reward and or stress the dog as necessary to achieve the desired result. Why? It works plain and simple. I find informing customers about the theory behind the application actually makes for better handlers in the end. Stress fades as the dog gains clarity. Some soft dogs may attempt to "shut down". Shutting down is just another protest behaviour and I treat it as such and so it goes away.


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## dogma13

I have seen the *cheating* behavior in various videos.I perceived it as the dog not fully understanding the command.For instance: the dog is at heel but not engaged with the handler at all.Looks like he's trying to stay within an invisible box,sometimes a little ahead or a little behind.

I was thinking he was avoiding pressure but actually he was depending on the pressure.Makes total sense.


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## Steve Strom

dogma13 said:


> I have seen the *cheating* behavior in various videos.I perceived it as the dog not fully understanding the command.For instance: the dog is at heel but not engaged with the handler at all.Looks like he's trying to stay within an invisible box,sometimes a little ahead or a little behind.
> 
> I was thinking he was avoiding pressure but actually he was depending on the pressure.Makes total sense.


You can do it with anything. Eye contact, a ball, the leash. But its basically never making the dog take the responsibility for being correct.


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## Baillif

At some point the lesson is learned


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## selzer

I think people cheat without even thinking about it. It becomes natural. I got to cut that out. Because I know I have been guilty of just correcting my position so the dog is in the correct position at the end of an exercise. This is one of the things a good trainer can help with, because we might just do it naturally, and a good trainer can say, "Eh! don't fix that for your dog!" and you look at her like she has three heads, and then she shows you, dog stops out of place, and you are moving... 

Oh, whatever, what was this thread about?


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## SuperG

selzer said:


> Oh, whatever, what was this thread about?


My grooming titles and secrets......

SuperGroom


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## LuvShepherds

This thread is making me crazy. I got annoyed with the new password system. I'm having a lot of trouble with it and stopped posting, but I made the effort to copy the stupid thing and log in when I saw this. And no, I'm not going to create another long complicated one that I also can't remember. The OP asked about a trainer and now we are debating whether someone else's dog is trained well enough? Did we answer the OP's questions? 

There are three variables when training a dog, the dog, the handler and the environment. Some of you are very good at reading the communicating with your dogs or you've had years of experience and don't need stronger tools. You can read and communicate with your dogs to get the behaviors you want. You are capable and wise enough to deal with challenging environmental situations. When an owner can't get the dog to do what is needed, they should be able to use whatever they need to without criticism or being made to feel incompetent. 

I have never used SMS so I have no dog in the race, but I don't see anything wrong with their methods if the trainer is competent. That is a fourth variable, the outside trainer. I always want to see a trainer's results with their own dogs and the relationship they have. I fired a trainer who got a little rough with my dog after seeing his dog was scared of him. Now I want to meet their dogs first before hiring a trainer. Is the trainer able to get the exact behavior I want from my dog with their own dog? Does the trainer have genuine affection for his dog and do they have a relationship, or does the dog just mechanically go through the exercises? Seeing a trainer work is a better reference than ten good recommendations.

Low e stim is fine, but if they have to go above about 40% of the collar strength, then the dog hasn't learned the foundations and has been pushed too hard. Go back and retrain in a calmer environment until the dog is proofed, then go out into crowds. An e collar is just one more tool available and if used properly will work. Any training device should be the way the trainer communicates with the dog what is wanted and nothing more, it is not a punishment. An e collar is another option for someone with a very strong willed dog or someone who isn't strong enough or willing to give prong corrections. Eventually, the dog should be able to do what you want without a prong or stim collar.


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## Muskeg

The problem with low-level e-collar, as explained in the video I posted, is that if you want reliability and a collar-free dog, you do need to use the e as "punishment' or more appropriately "correction".

Some dogs will never need an e-collar, most higher drive shepherd types might, depending on your expectations and what you need from the dog.

If you want to STOP the dog from doing something that is self-rewarding and builds happy pathways in the brain of the dog, you need to have a correction that over-rides, stops, or makes less desirable the "happy state" that is brought about by--- chasing, reacting, barking, biting.

You can constantly nag the dog with low level e and prong and be OK, maybe, if that is what you want to do for the rest of the dog's life. Your dog, your choice. But used appropriately and with good timing and clarity, if you train with corrections, you'll end up actually correcting the dog a whole lot less and for a much shorter time period and have a much better route to a trained collar free dog. 

All that needs to happen is the dog needs to understand how to avoid a correction, and that making "good" choices avoids a correction and results in a happy time and lots of good things.


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## LuvShepherds

Muskeg said:


> The problem with low-level e-collar, as explained in the video I posted, is that if you want reliability and a collar-free dog, you do need to use the e as "punishment' or more appropriately "correction".
> 
> Some dogs will never need an e-collar, most higher drive shepherd types might, depending on your expectations and what you need from the dog.
> 
> If you want to STOP the dog from doing something that is self-rewarding and builds happy pathways in the brain of the dog, you need to have a correction that over-rides, stops, or makes less desirable the "happy state" that is brought about by--- chasing, reacting, barking, biting.
> 
> You can constantly nag the dog with low level e and prong and be OK, maybe, if that is what you want to do for the rest of the dog's life. Your dog, your choice. But used appropriately and with good timing and clarity, if you train with corrections, you'll end up actually correcting the dog a whole lot less and for a much shorter time period and have a much better route to a trained collar free dog.
> 
> All that needs to happen is the dog needs to understand how to avoid a correction, and that making "good" choices avoids a correction and results in a happy time and lots of good things.


That is one opinion and it's valid, but in my experience not always true. I've been around dogs who were trained with low stim and when it's done properly, they learn to respond so quickly to verbal commands, they eventually never need the stim at all. That method never punishes, it only talks to the dog. If used correctly, the stim is actually a very small part of the training, which can be done without a prong collar at all. All training can be done with a regular collar and a leash, with minimal stim.

I haven't watched the video yet and I will, but I know in advance it's going to be a very reasonable discussion of why low stim is bad and his method is good. Everyone has their favorite methods. I'd rather someone find one thing that works for them, than end up with an untrained dog that lands in rescue or a shelter.

I have had terrible results with PO, but I have seen dogs trained with PO who are very well behaved all the time. A PO trainer would say their methods are always best. I don't see the purpose of this board to make people feel bad or question their training choices, but to uplift anyone who is trying something that isn't dangerous which will help them train a dog into the companion they want.


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## dogma13

LuvShepherds I don't think anyone was criticizing or saying anyone was incompetent.Just discussing what they felt were the good and bad points about SMS.What to look for in a good or bad trainer,a lot of what you mentioned in your own post.


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## LuvShepherds

dogma13 said:


> LuvShepherds I don't think anyone was criticizing or saying anyone was incompetent.Just discussing what they felt were the good and bad points about SMS.What to look for in a good or bad trainer,a lot of what you mentioned in your own post.


Maybe, but people who have decided on a trainer need to have confidence in the person they have selected. If we create doubts in people's minds, then they won't get positive results. The bad points people feel they need to make about E collars end up discounting the whole method. Again, it comes down to the fact that we aren't going to agree on best training methods. Also, I don't think anyone who hasn't tried low stim is qualified to say it doesn't work. If I hadn't had bad results with PO, I wouldn't come in and say it's a terrible method. I still don't think it's terrible for someone else, even though I'll never try it again. 

I'm referring more to the threads the OP read before posting saying e collars are always bad than SMS. I have no experience with that company. I thought e collars were terrible after reading this board for several years. Then I read one post that explained why they were good in some circumstances and I ended up with trainer who uses them a part of a much larger training program. Had I not read that, I might have passed on the trainer. It was the perfect choice and I never regretted it. 

I'm unable to open the video. I got an error message.


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## dogma13

LuvShepherds the video actually said low stim was an excellent training method and went on to explain what it could and couldn't do.My point was just that this particular thread wasn't berating anyone or the SMS method.
You were talking in more general terms about criticizing and creating doubt.Now I fully understand.That means I'm free to go create confusion on another thread


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## LuvShepherds

dogma13 said:


> LuvShepherds the video actually said low stim was an excellent training method and went on to explain what it could and couldn't do.My point was just that this particular thread wasn't berating anyone or the SMS method.
> You were talking in more general terms about criticizing and creating doubt.Now I fully understand.That means I'm free to go create confusion on another thread


LOL. I wish I could see it! I'll try again later. Is there a thread I need to stir up before I log off?


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## Gonzo

I came back to this thread and was quite surprised at the amount of replies! 

Thank you all for the feedback. I have read all of this and will re-read it as me and my dog go through our training. I will do my best not to let her down :grin2:


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## cherub737

Hi Gonzo,
Sounds like you have tried a lot but still have great reservations. Not sure where you live but have you ever considered a board n train? Debbie Zappia offers that and she and her team are excellent. In fact, she just took the 2015 WUSV...and first American! She is in Marion, NY, I believe by the Rochester airport. I have attended several of her workshops and she is phenomenal in being able to both evaluate and correct the situation. I think your dog is so young yet and rather than expose her to a bunch of different things you are not sure of yourself, it might be prudent to see someone like Debbie Zappia and, in the end, probably more cost effective. There is also a good book by Susan Garrett entitled "Ruff Love."

Best of luck to you!


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## dogma13

Gonzo said:


> I came back to this thread and was quite surprised at the amount of replies!
> 
> Thank you all for the feedback. I have read all of this and will re-read it as me and my dog go through our training. I will do my best not to let her down :grin2:


Wishing you success!Looking forward to progress updates


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## Steve Strom

Gonzo said:


> I came back to this thread and was quite surprised at the amount of replies!
> 
> Thank you all for the feedback. I have read all of this and will re-read it as me and my dog go through our training. I will do my best not to let her down :grin2:


Just so you know, the different things that came up on your thread don't reflect on the trainers you met, or even on the abilities of the young lady posting videos. Its just the marketing and the way it implies some things. E is E, period. Dogs don't know if the person was a SMS franchisee or read it on a website.


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## Dogtrainerlady

I was a trainer there. Day 1 they slap the collar on and stim while using the leash till the dog gets it right. They don’t spend time teaching the dog the behaviors first. They use the collar to teach, which is wrong. Because that takes time to teach behaviors and they are all about fast results. And their goal is never to get you off collar. Even their trainer have their dogs still wearing collars for years. They use it on puppies as young as 12 weeks. That’s nuts. They claim “it’s to get attention”. But they teach to command while pushing the button. Every single command. Even if your dog did it. There are more ethical collar trainers out there. E collars are not bad….but they are not the first thing to go to. And their collars are junk. 1-7 on high medium or Low? I’ve taken all my past clients off sms collars and went to something that can adjust to each dog. Not force a dog to deal with a level that it’s right. It’s just a branded Sportdog collar anyways with their logo and an extra features. It’s a money thing. Tons of trainers have left and opened their own companies and changed what they do.


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## WNGD

5 year old thread but an interesting read nonetheless


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## LuvShepherds

WNGD said:


> 5 year old thread but an interesting read nonetheless


Geez I was argumentative. I don’t even know why. I have evolved since then. @Dogma was very patient.


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