# Safe Meats and Freezing time



## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

So I am doing my research first on Raw Diet and so far pretty good and I think I just have some BASIC/DUMB questions here lol. How important is that the meat you got was grass feed and they didn't use any hormones/antibiotics on those farm animals? I know that buying from big companies is a plain NO but not sure how important of the "SUPER organic" thing. 

Second question, is there a book that is about of freezing properly all this diet? For instance wild game needs more time in the freezer (whole fish too) to kill all bacteria rather than... you meat that is already cut.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

For most people, it seems to be a sliding scale of balancing Quality of Meat vs. Cost of Meat. In a perfect world, it'd be all certified organic (by a legitimate 3rd party), humane, grass-finished, or wild. But... most of our bank accounts aren't bottomless.

I started a thread a while ago ( http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../673778-sustainable-ownership-carnivores.html ) where a few people threw out some good ideas and opinions. 

I freeze gamebirds (pheasants and grouse) for 2+ months. I freeze pork and venison a loooooong time. I rarely feed pork unless someone gives it to me - even though the risk of trichinosis is minuscule, into the deep freeze it goes. I've read so much conflicting information on bear meat that when someone gives me scraps for the dogs, I just cook it before feeding. Those are only my opinions, though - I haven't found a 100% reputable reference book or website. Most credible guides assume that the food will end up cooked to such-and-such temperature before consumption, so they don't really apply to raw food safety.


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## Mesonoxian (Apr 5, 2012)

I echo basically everything WIBackpacker said. 

While I'd love to feed top-quality, ethically raised and butchered meat, my wallet can't handle it! So I feed the best I can overall, try to source from some smaller and local suppliers, and splurge when I can afford something awesome. (And contrast even "standard" grocery store quality meat with what goes into most pet foods... It's generally a step up no matter how you slice it.)

I recommend trying to get in touch with raw feeders in your general area - I've been lucky enough to have gotten more connected with other raw feeders in my area since I started feeding raw 3 years ago, and it has made my wallet happier, and I've found some really nice stuff to feed.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

karladupler said:


> So I am doing my research first on Raw Diet and so far pretty good and I think I just have some BASIC/DUMB questions here lol. How important is that the meat you got was grass feed and they didn't use any hormones/antibiotics on those farm animals? I know that buying from big companies is a plain NO but not sure how important of the "SUPER organic" thing.
> 
> Second question, is there a book that is about of freezing properly all this diet? For instance wild game needs more time in the freezer (whole fish too) to kill all bacteria rather than... you meat that is already cut.


TBH in most situations organic meat is just too expensive, and non organic meat is still a healthier option to kibble, which usually is not organic anyway.

Freezing wild meat is to kill parasites, not bacteria. There's nothing wrong with bacteria as long as the meat is fresh, whether that be a freshly purchased or freshly frozen and thawed. Farm meat should not have parasites so there should be no need to freeze. Bacteria should only be an issue if the meat is left at room temp too long. A lot of people avoid pork completely because of bacteria risk to humans, most of us let our dogs lick our hands and that could be risky with a pork fed dog.

Edit: The minimum amount of time to freeze meat to kill parasites is 3 days. Look up Dr. Karen Becker, she has a lot of good info on raw diets.


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

Omg I read your thread and that's the life goal hahaha so interesting but unfortunately I live in the freaking middle of Los Angeles, CA. So here's a whole different story hahaha and not a good one.




WIBackpacker said:


> For most people, it seems to be a sliding scale of balancing Quality of Meat vs. Cost of Meat. In a perfect world, it'd be all certified organic (by a legitimate 3rd party), humane, grass-finished, or wild. But... most of our bank accounts aren't bottomless.
> 
> I started a thread a while ago ( http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru.../673778-sustainable-ownership-carnivores.html ) where a few people threw out some good ideas and opinions.
> 
> I freeze gamebirds (pheasants and grouse) for 2+ months. I freeze pork and venison a loooooong time. I rarely feed pork unless someone gives it to me - even though the risk of trichinosis is minuscule, into the deep freeze it goes. I've read so much conflicting information on bear meat that when someone gives me scraps for the dogs, I just cook it before feeding. Those are only my opinions, though - I haven't found a 100% reputable reference book or website. Most credible guides assume that the food will end up cooked to such-and-such temperature before consumption, so they don't really apply to raw food safety.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

karladupler said:


> Omg I read your thread and that's the life goal hahaha so interesting but unfortunately I live in the freaking middle of Los Angeles, CA. So here's a whole different story hahaha and not a good one.


Completely understand! My intent there to share goals and ideas, I don't think there are black & white rules that apply to everyone. 

I'd echo Mesonoxian's recommendation about trying to get into your local network - sometimes there are "underground" resources available.


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

True! I meant parasites hahaha sorry about that. I will look at her website I believe she has tons of good videos too. 

About going organic or not yes is totally a healthier rather than kibble. I guess as long the meat is not imported I should be fine and thank you so much for the pork information.




Dracovich said:


> TBH in most situations organic meat is just too expensive, and non organic meat is still a healthier option to kibble, which usually is not organic anyway.
> 
> Freezing wild meat is to kill parasites, not bacteria. There's nothing wrong with bacteria as long as the meat is fresh, whether that be a freshly purchased or freshly frozen and thawed. Farm meat should not have parasites so there should be no need to freeze. Bacteria should only be an issue if the meat is left at room temp too long. A lot of people avoid pork completely because of bacteria risk to humans, most of us let our dogs lick our hands and that could be risky with a pork fed dog.
> 
> Edit: The minimum amount of time to freeze meat to kill parasites is 3 days. Look up Dr. Karen Becker, she has a lot of good info on raw diets.


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## WIBackpacker (Jan 9, 2014)

Karla, this is a little unconventional and of course I don't live in your area. _However_ - these types of people may be the sort of network to help connect you to useful resources. Urban chicken keepers tend to include the local sustainability nerds (I say that affectionately). 

https://www.meetup.com/Los-Angeles-Urban-Chicken-Enthusiasts/

https://www.facebook.com/LAUrbanChickens/


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

I thought it was very black and white for raw diet. I only have 2 weeks researching and reading and i came up with this questions after that. 

And I will try to do the local network thing! 



WIBackpacker said:


> Completely understand! My intent there to share goals and ideas, I don't think there are black & white rules that apply to everyone.
> 
> I'd echo Mesonoxian's recommendation about trying to get into your local network - sometimes there are "underground" resources available.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> TBH in most situations organic meat is just too expensive, and non organic meat is still a healthier option to kibble, which usually is not organic anyway.
> 
> Freezing wild meat is to kill parasites, not bacteria. There's nothing wrong with bacteria as long as the meat is fresh, whether that be a freshly purchased or freshly frozen and thawed. Farm meat should not have parasites so there should be no need to freeze. Bacteria should only be an issue if the meat is left at room temp too long. A lot of people avoid pork completely because of bacteria risk to humans, most of us let our dogs lick our hands and that could be risky with a pork fed dog.
> 
> Edit: The minimum amount of time to freeze meat to kill parasites is 3 days. Look up Dr. Karen Becker, she has a lot of good info on raw diets.


Bacteria in meat can absolutely be a problem for dogs with GI sensitivities or to those who are immunocompromised. And freezing the meat, any meat, will reduce the bacterial load. Because of that, I freeze everything I feed my dogs for at least a week before feeding it, especially if it was purchased at a grocery store. 

Many raw feeders avoid pork because of the risk of tricinosis, caused by a type of roundworm called trichinella spiralis. While it is thought to have been mostly eradicated in the US pork supply for humans, I still freeze pork for at least a month before feeding it, just to be sure.

I'm sure most raw feeders don't avoid particular meats based on their fear of being licked by a bacteria ridden dog. Making sure you wash your hands before handling food is usually sufficient there.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

> . Farm meat should not have parasites so there should be no need to freeze.


Incorrect.

My formal education background is microbiology, with a emphasis on parasitology.

There are many parasites that can be picked up from farmed meat. I have sat infront of microscopes and have seen them with my own eyes - From samples bought straight from the grocery store. 

Protozoan parasites such as t gondii and g intestinalis are quite common. Millions of people are infected each year. And we tend to cook our meat.

Helminths like taenia and trichinella are less common but still fairly easy to find.

I personally choose to freeze all meat and will not feed commercial grinds of any kind to my dogs to avoid these issues


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Bacteria in meat can absolutely be a problem for dogs with GI sensitivities or to those who are immunocompromised. And freezing the meat, any meat, will reduce the bacterial load. Because of that, I freeze everything I feed my dogs for at least a week before feeding it, especially if it was purchased at a grocery store.
> 
> Many raw feeders avoid pork because of the risk of tricinosis, caused by a type of roundworm called trichinella spiralis. While it is thought to have been mostly eradicated in the US pork supply for humans, I still freeze pork for at least a month before feeding it, just to be sure.
> 
> I'm sure most raw feeders don't avoid particular meats based on their fear of being licked by a bacteria ridden dog. Making sure you wash your hands before handling food is usually sufficient there.


When speaking of certain diets anything can cause a problem in an unhealthy or special needs dog, one cannot simply account for every possible diet sensitivity 

I've personally met and spoken to quite a few raw feeders that avoid pork for the reason I mentioned, which is why I mentioned it.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> My formal education background is microbiology, with a emphasis on parasitology.
> 
> ...


Read it again, emphasis on the SHOULD.


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## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Dracovich said:


> When speaking of certain diets anything can cause a problem in an unhealthy or special needs dog, one cannot simply account for every possible diet sensitivity
> 
> I've personally met and spoken to quite a few raw feeders that avoid pork for the reason I mentioned, which is why I mentioned it.


Hey, everyone has a right to their own opinion. And if you have spoken to quite a few raw feeders that avoid pork because they think their dog licking them is going to spread bacteria, that's certainly fine for them to believe that. Though, I can't imagine how they must feel about feeding raw chicken, then, where salmonella and campylobacter abound!


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

My vet (evidence-based, not holistic) advised to deep-freeze raw meat (beef, in my dog's case) for at least 2 weeks prior to feeding. He seemed to believe this time-frame would improve the safety profile considerably.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

Dracovich said:


> Read it again, emphasis on the SHOULD.


Should implies what is probable... actual contamination rates of meat supplies can be fairly significant. 

Almost 15% of all sampled lamb/mutton tests positive for t gondii for example 

Investigating the Determinants of Toxoplasma gondii Prevalence in Meat: A Systematic Review and Meta-Regression

Idk for me I expect that people should be concerned about parasites and bacteria for that matter even when purchasing farmed meat and react accordingly... cause 15% is a lot.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

GypsyGhost said:


> Hey, everyone has a right to their own opinion. And if you have spoken to quite a few raw feeders that avoid pork because they think their dog licking them is going to spread bacteria, that's certainly fine for them to believe that. Though, I can't imagine how they must feel about feeding raw chicken, then, where salmonella and campylobacter abound!


I'm unsure, I'm not one of the people who worry about things like that and I don't have a dog with sensitivities.


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## Dracovich (Feb 24, 2017)

voodoolamb said:


> Should implies what is probable... actual contamination rates of meat supplies can be fairly significant.
> 
> Almost 15% of all sampled lamb/mutton tests positive for t gondii for example
> 
> ...


Yes, in probability 85% is greater than 15%, thank you.


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## np307 (Feb 22, 2017)

I'll just jump in here to say, concerning trichonosis specifically, that, although many people will swear by it to kill the parasites, the ONLY approved method for removing the risk is to bring the internal temperature up high enough to kill them. Not usually an issue with grocery store pork, but it is an issue with bear meat. I doubt very many people are feeding their dogs bear meat, but I figured it was worth jumping in to mention it.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

When they talk about freezing meat to kill parasites and all, they are talking freezers far colder than most of us have. I keep my freezers very cold because of this, but for the most part only worry about wild game like venison. The fish I buy on occasion has been flash frozen to very cold temps which is necessary for salmon out of the pacific north west. 

I feed pork and have for many many years. I would not feed wild pig or bear, personally, unless one has access to commercial freezers. This is in the USA. Other countries may have other things to worry about.


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## karladupler (Mar 22, 2016)

That's right!  I am getting a chest freezer next month only for the dog food  



lhczth said:


> When they talk about freezing meat to kill parasites and all, they are talking freezers far colder than most of us have. I keep my freezers very cold because of this, but for the most part only worry about wild game like venison. The fish I buy on occasion has been flash frozen to very cold temps which is necessary for salmon out of the pacific north west.
> 
> I feed pork and have for many many years. I would not feed wild pig or bear, personally, unless one has access to commercial freezers. This is in the USA. Other countries may have other things to worry about.


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