# Advice on growling while being touched during ball/ tug play



## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

So, my dog ( Skadi) growls when you pet her while she is busy playing ball or tug. I want to change this. Is there any advice on this forum ( positive reinforcement only, I do not wish to correct this behavior with a prong, though I do not judge others for doing so) that anyone has to offer?


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

What is the quality of the growl? Is it a serious "back the heck off or I will bite" or is it a playful growl. Yes there is a difference. 

My Labrador sounds VICIOUS when she is on a tug or chewing a bone. But she is relaxed and happy. Just a talker. I don't correct it. It's just her. 

If your girl is tensing up, preparing for a fight in regards to the toy, it needs to be corrected. I would not recommend a prong. I would teach her that good things happen when you pet her and she has a toy. So, to start I would not be touching her or the toy, I would just approach, say "goog girl" and offer something yummy. Once she is expecting something good as you approach, then lightly pet her,once , and then offer the treat. Slowly build this up so that she associates you with only good, no matter what she has. I would not, for a long time, invade her space, try to take the toy, anything like that. In fact I never do that. Unless she is chewing on something bad. You just want her to feel that your presence is always bringing good things. 


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

It's not a play growl... We have gotten her to the point where she does not growl over her ball in the house anymore, and she will give it up, but if you are playing with her and she has a ball or tug in her mouth, she growls. It immediately stops when you stop touching her.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

Does she continue to play? Is she growling as you tug with her? Or just when you try to grab the toy? Does she try to get away with her toy? Or present it to you to keep playing? Many dogs growl when tugging. Sorry. Just trying to figure out why she is growling. 


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We have only worked positively with her and our other dog... No prongs  This issue seems to stem from her issues with being touched. Through working with touching for treats she has gotten much better, but it seems to be that when she is in "drive" and working on obedience she does not want to be touched and will let us know with a warning growl.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

No, questions will help me get to the bottom of this! She seems to be saying that she is enjoying playing and would prefer not to be touched at that time. She also came with some posession aggression particularly surrounding her ball. We have been doing resource guarding and touch sensitivity protocols as laid out by a positive behaviorist. She will continue playing until she is completely exhausted if we let her.. And she will give up the toy 80-95% of the time. After, of course, months of work with her on this.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She will present the toy, want to keep playing, but if you touch her during play, she growls.


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

Growl doesn't automatically mean aggressive. Dogs will growl while playing if they are stressed or amped up. I had a dog that growled when I put too much stress on him aka rubbing my hands over his face. He didn't have the best nerves but the growl during play never turned into aggression.


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

So she is telling you she does not want to be touched while in drive. Ok. Why do you need to touch her? Not trying to smart alecy, just trying to understand the situation. 

Have you tried using an exchange for the toy, instead of asking for her to give over just one toy? Do a two hose game? So that she always gets something for releasing? 

Maybe start working on asking HER to touch YOU during sessions. Teach the "touch", a basic agility thing. You put out a hand and she touches her nose to it. Do that out of drive, then work it into a play session. Throw a toy, she brings it back, present the other toy, but also ask her to "touch" your free hand, once she does, throw the second toy. Making the contact by her, be done on her terms. Let her be in control of contact. 

If her nerves are shaky, the physical touch may be pushing her over the edge. Many times the need to touch and hug and love on our dogs, is for our own needs, not theirs. 


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## Stevenzachsmom (Mar 3, 2008)

My non-GSD shelter pup came with major resource guarding issues. I practiced Mind Games with him. Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong It worked wonders in his behavior. There was a lot hand feeding and working for each handful. It was always about giving, never taking away. We always traded for something better.

My foster GSD boy resource guarded his toys. He did not like the toy taken from his mouth. If we played ball in the yard, I used two balls. He would drop the first, when I threw the second. We worked on drop it and leave it. Over time, both dogs learned that no one was going to take their stuff.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She is one who is stressed by too much touching and will let you know... She came from a two pup litter and dogs from one or two pup litters often have handling issues. She does nip also when you try to take something she shouldnt have away. Not 100% of the time, but a few times today, she has nipped me.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> So she is telling you she does not want to be touched while in drive. Ok. Why do you need to touch her? Not trying to smart alecy, just trying to understand the situation.
> 
> Have you tried using an exchange for the toy, instead of asking for her to give over just one toy? Do a two hose game? So that she always gets something for releasing?
> 
> ...


One of the first things we taught her was the touch command... And we play a lot of two ball around here  We just figure that being able to be touched when she is playing will help her be better at the vet


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## boomer11 (Jun 9, 2013)

One day you're going to throw away that clicker and correct your dog and both of you will be better because of it. There is absolutely no reason a full grown dog that is stable shouldn't completely behave.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Stevenzachsmom said:


> My non-GSD shelter pup came with major resource guarding issues. I practiced Mind Games with him. Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong It worked wonders in his behavior. There was a lot hand feeding and working for each handful. It was always about giving, never taking away. We always traded for something better.
> 
> My foster GSD boy resource guarded his toys. He did not like the toy taken from his mouth. If we played ball in the yard, I used two balls. He would drop the first, when I threw the second. We worked on drop it and leave it. Over time, both dogs learned that no one was going to take their stuff.


Thank you, I will look that up!


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## gsdsar (May 21, 2002)

glowingtoadfly said:


> One of the first things we taught her was the touch command... And we play a lot of two ball around here  We just figure that being able to be touched when she is playing will help her be better at the vet



Except I would not want a dog to be in drive at the vet. It's already a highly charged place, if she is iffy in drive, then the scariness of the vet would easily push her over the edge. I would be working on calming exersises for vet visits, not hyping her up. 


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> Except I would not want a dog to be in drive at the vet. It's already a highly charged place, if she is iffy in drive, then the scariness of the vet would easily push her over the edge. I would be working on calming exersises for vet visits, not hyping her up.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


No, I meant the skill of self calming and accepting touch while excited, not that I would hype her up at the vet


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

glowingtoadfly said:


> No, I meant the skill of self calming and accepting touch while excited, not that I would hype her up at the vet


the problem with 'self-calming' during play is usually we want a dog to be very excited during play.

If its you playing with the tug and you touch her is she okay? or another person walking up?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

She just doesnt care to be touched during play and will let out a " hey, I was playing, don't mess with me, I'm busy and if you don't quit I'll nip you" kind of growl.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

We avoid strangers walking up to her while she's playing


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## Baillif (Jun 26, 2013)

Youre maybe being over sensitive. When i go into posession games with zebu he will growl or roar at me. Same with a malinois here. If you touch him when hes holding something he growls or roars. No big deal.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

gsdsar said:


> What is the quality of the growl? Is it a serious "back the heck off or I will bite" or is it a playful growl. Yes there is a difference.
> 
> My Labrador sounds VICIOUS when she is on a tug or chewing a bone. But she is relaxed and happy. Just a talker. I don't correct it. It's just her.
> 
> ...


... I think we will start here again with her foundational work  Sometimes, in the business of life, it is easy to forget that this dog still needs this and not to be pushed. Thank you for reminding me of this


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

Baillif said:


> Youre maybe being over sensitive. When i go into posession games with zebu he will growl or roar at me. Same with a malinois here. If you touch him when hes holding something he growls or roars. No big deal.


Yeah, I'm starting to learn not to take it too personally  She is quite the little fireball.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

"She came from a two pup litter and dogs from one or two pup litters often have handling issues."

they do?


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/si...olo-What every puppy needs from the start.pdf
We have found that a lot of information on singleton puppies also applies to Skadi. She came from a two pup litter, but my husband and I think it was small enough to have an effect on her.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Edited to add link: Solo: What every puppy needs from the start, Patricia B. McConnell




nuggets of wisdom from the Patricia McConnell link --
 
a much larger​ problem: pups who grow up in the absence of a​ normal amount of stimulation, whether it's from their​ littermates, their mother or the environment around​ them.

 the profound effects of early experience​ during the first weeks of development aren't well​ known by most people, and millions of dogs and the​ people who love them suffer for it.

 The brains of puppies aren't fully developed at​ birth, and what happens in the first few weeks of life​ affects how puppies' adult brains are structured.​ Puppies (and humans for that matter) who grow up in​ sterile environments have brains with relatively few​ connections between brain cells. Puppies who grow​ up in enriched environments, with lots of sensory​ inputs, develop into adults with a veritable spider​ web of connections between neurons. Those​ connections, called “dendritic branches,” are formed​ early in life, and affect how many brain cells are​ actually used later in life.​ 
 Our​ American obsession with cleanliness and our​ ignorance about the consequences of environmental​ sterility have damaged many other puppies as well.​ I've worked with dogs from well-known​ “responsible” breeders who raised their pups in​ pristine cleanliness, and complete and utter​ environmental impoverishment.

 The lack of an enriched, variable environment is a​ surprisingly common problem. Most people know​ that dogs need to be “socialized” during their​ sensitive period of social development between five​ and 12 weeks of age. But far fewer know that​ puppies, long before they go to their new homes,​ need a complex, changing environment in their first​ weeks of life to develop into the “best that they can​ be.” It always breaks my heart to meet these dogs,​ the ones raised in a wire-and-cement kennel with​ little opportunity to grow and stretch their brains, not​ getting what they needed when they needed it.

 Too much stimulation at an​ early age can backfire on you and end up harming​ your puppy.
 

xxxxx I have had singleton pups . One recently was bought by Veteran's association to be trained for a returning vet with PTSD . He is doing remarkably well . NO issues . 

another litter so many years ago to Klockow's Lex , only 2 pups. Male went RCMP, female was used in my breeding program.

Bambi -- one of my nearly 12 year olds - singleton --- no issues .

all raised with the normal enriched environment.

so if anybody is faced with possibly taking on a pup that comes from a small litter , don't be dissuaded , do check and ask the important questions of the breeder . How did you raise the pups. 
This is good advice for ANY sized litter .


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

I believe that our breeder raised her well, with proper enrichment and stimulation, but I do not know her learning history from eight weeks to ten months or so. I always keep that in mind


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I don't know . Ask your behaviourist . Seems like there were a lot of suggestions on http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...-other-positive-trainers-working-lines-2.html , where you mention the dog disciplining you with her teeth , mouthing, and not like being handled.


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

There were many helpful suggestions in that thread  Today at her first IPO obedience training the helper did a lot of one on one work with her on tug. Our technique was not engaging her enough. She is actually able to play tug with us now without degenerating into mouthing, and she allowed everyone who wanted to meet her to pet her with a wagging tail and loose body, which is progress. She did growl at the helper when he handled her head during tug, but he gave us some more help on that as well. We were "outing" her too much during play and it made her posessive of the toy.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

that sounds perfectly reasonable. People create the same friction with their dogs trying to make them "safe" around food . 
glad to see this change .


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## glowingtoadfly (Feb 28, 2014)

It has been only recently, within the last month, that she has been able to tug with us without mouthing. We tried it back when we first brought her home and it made the mouthing worse, but now she seems to understand that she isn't supposed to do that. If Grim tries mouthing in the house, she corrects him firmly. It's pretty funny coming from her...


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