# Another "after the hemangiosarcoma diagnosis" question......



## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

I registered here to get some info on this horrible cancer.

Our boy Radar, blind, neutered, 7 yo - he had many issues at birth & in his first few weeks of life which left him with a number of deficits, mostly cognitive, - was diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma about 3 weeks ago.

His condition presented as sub dermal lumps. We had some (he has them all over) removed & biopsied & this cancer was the answer.
We have had him scanned & he has had an ultrasound - no disease showed up internally but the Vet was quick to dampen our relief. He said that absence of evidence of was not an indication of absence of cancer. He just felt that all indications were a life expectancy of maybe 8 - 12 weeks at best.
We were (& are) heartbroken.
Radar is not a candidate for any sort of chemo, his cognitive issues make him very hard to handle, he moves & wriggles constantly & he just doesn't act like"normal" dogs.
We want to do our very best for him & not have him suffer for one moment so trying to figure out when & how we let him go is killing us.
He had an external bleed, from a lesion on his foot, on Sunday. I got him a protective boot and he has taken to wearing that fine but as some of the other lesions continue to grow all over his body & limbs I know patching him up is not going to work on a bigger bleed.

Has anyone dealt with this presentation of the disease before that might be able to help with advice?


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## ksotto333 (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't but am so sorry for Radar's health issues. Sounds like you have given him a wonderful life. Blessings to you.


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

ksotto333 said:


> I don't but am so sorry for Radar's health issues. Sounds like you have given him a wonderful life. Blessings to you.


Thank you so much for that 🥰
Honestly he is the best dog ever - so happy & cheerful but so totally daft 😂


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

So sorry to hear that Radar is sick 

I did a quick search and there are many posts about this cancer, I hope this helps. Search results for query: Hemangiosarcoma | German Shepherds Forum


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

Heidigsd said:


> So sorry to hear that Radar is sick
> 
> I did a quick search and there are many posts about this cancer, I hope this helps. Search results for query: Hemangiosarcoma | German Shepherds Forum


Thank you so much for your kindness.🌼🌼

Yes, I have read up on the the other threads but they all seem to be in relation to internal bleeding and the presentation of the disease in that regard.
Radar's presentation is sub dermal, so just under the skin and appearing as big, black/purple lumps & bumps. His bleeding is/will be external.
According to our vet his particular version of the disease is very rare.
I am finding it very hard to get first hand accounts of how this may play out for him (& us).


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## Dustinb80 (10 mo ago)

Very sorry to hear about your sick little buddy. I hope its a smooth road ahead.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm sorry. I have never heard of HS presenting like this. It's a blood cancer and typically in the spleen, heart and liver. My girl had bloodwork that showed it in the liver but whether it was in the spleen as well, I don't know. 

If Radar's is external, are his organs affected? What is the prognosis for this presentation?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Wow. Googled. I'm so sorry. This is definitely the year of "crap I did not know could go wrong" in the health of our dogs.


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Wow. Googled. I'm so sorry. This is definitely the year of "crap I did not know could go wrong" in the health of our dogs.


I know, right 

Yes, he has been scanned and as of right now there are no visible signs of tumours internally..........but...... our Vet seems to think that is simply down to the fact that they aren't visible on the imaging rather than that they are not there. He says the fact that there are so many ( at least 20 we can feel & more appearing almost by the day ) just under his skin makes it unlikely that there is no internal spread.

I understand that HS is a cancer of the blood vessels, rather than of the blood itself?


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## Squidwardp (Oct 15, 2019)

I am awfully sorry, we lived this with our previous beloved GSD. 

I can't offer much long term hope, but maybe some short term palliatives. 

First, I would have said if he was a candidate for chemo, and it was affordable (appears you are in Ireland, and I don't know your situation there with veterinary rates, pet health insurance such as we have in the states, or so forth), chemo did help our lost girl have 5.5 months with mostly good quality of life. Sometimes astonishingly good. But results vary, this disease is insidious, and a very strong dog can be stricken with a bleed and die sooner. At the far, far outside, I have heard of a dog not known tome personally, but on this forum, who lived close to 2 years after diagnosis. That is an outlier. 

Second, there are some Chinese herbal supplements touted by a U of Pennsylvania vet school study (U Penn is among the best vet schools here). The study is a few years old but they did report good results in many dogs. Not a cure, to be sure, but helping in controlling the bleeding, increased longevity after diagnosis. It goes by the name Yunan Baiyao, I believe, or something real close to that. A vet would know what it is, or you can google it. 

For us, the conventional chemo worked better, seemingly than the supplement.
Our girl had a spleenectomy, and came through it well. Unfortunately, the operation also confirmed hemangio. 
She tolerated chemo very well and we had her under the care of a veterinary oncologist. 
The vet techs who assisted in the treatment did not know her age (turned 9 before passing away), and one of them was surprised to learn it, thinking she was maybe 4.

It spread to her liver, in a way that could not be addressed by surgery. The oncologist also made clear she could have only so many treatments before it would pose possible dire and fatal side effects, cardio related, I believe. After chemo ran its course and the hemangio spread to other organs, she passed quickly.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

RadarDaisy said:


> I know, right
> 
> Yes, he has been scanned and as of right now there are no visible signs of tumours internally..........but...... our Vet seems to think that is simply down to the fact that they aren't visible on the imaging rather than that they are not there. He says the fact that there are so many ( at least 20 we can feel & more appearing almost by the day ) just under his skin makes it unlikely that there is no internal spread.
> 
> I understand that HS is a cancer of the blood vessels, rather than of the blood itself?


I believe so? After losing Jax, and thinking about other dogs, there does seem to be a correlation between increased activity and sudden bleeding. There is also a correlation between this cancer and the bartonella bacteria (same bacteria found in the litter box of cats and why pregnant women should not clean the cat box). Believe me..I was eyeballing all the cats around here with a vengeance when I read that.






Bartonella bacteria found in canine HSA tumors


The authors of a new study say their findings further support the connection between persistent infecton and some types of cancer.




www.aaha.org




.

So I've often wondered since reading this....should we treat our dogs with doxy once a year? The only way to diagnose bartonella is a tissue biopsy but the treatment is doxy.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Squidwardp said:


> Second, there are some Chinese herbal supplements touted by a U of Pennsylvania vet school study (U Penn is among the best vet schools here). The study is a few years old but they did report good results in many dogs. Not a cure, to be sure, but helping in controlling the bleeding, increased longevity after diagnosis. It goes by the name Yunan Baiyao, I believe, or something real close to that. A vet would know what it is, or you can google it.


the study at U Penn was a combination of 4 mushrooms. They will give you the "recipe" for it. A friend had a HS dog while the studying was in progress and they told her the combination of mushrooms so that she could give it to her dog although she was to far away to do the study.


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## Heidigsd (Sep 4, 2004)

There is a Facebook group (Pet Vet Corner) where veterinarians donate their time. If you're on Facebook, it's worth a try, I have seen several specialists comment on this group. They get a lot of requests but maybe they see yours and respond. Pet Vet Corner ℠ (ONLY APPROVED VETERINARIANS COMMENT) | Facebook


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

Squidwardp said:


> I am awfully sorry, we lived this with our previous beloved GSD.
> 
> I can't offer much long term hope, but maybe some short term palliatives.
> 
> ...





Squidwardp said:


> I am awfully sorry, we lived this with our previous beloved GSD.
> 
> I can't offer much long term hope, but maybe some short term palliatives.
> 
> ...


You are so good to share all this with me, thank you.

Unfortunately no, Radar is not a candidate for chemo due to his unique challenges. He would need to be sedated prior to any infusion but his metabolism does not reacte well to sedation, it takes a toll on him & our vet wouldn't recommend it at all. 

I have put in a request with our vet on the mushroom supplements, thank you for that, at least it is something positive to do, it has just felt like every avenue I have tried up to now have been dead ends.

I really appreciate your reply 🌸🌸


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> the study at U Penn was a combination of 4 mushrooms. They will give you the "recipe" for it. A friend had a HS dog while the studying was in progress and they told her the combination of mushrooms so that she could give it to her dog although she was to far away to do the study.


You are the best!
I have asked our vet to check this out for me.
At this point even if it is only something to make me feel better, like I was doing something positive for him, it would be good.

He is the absolute worst with food though, he has never had a good appetite, always has to be cajoled to eat. We previously have had 4 sheps & even the pickiest eater of the 4 would have eaten rings around Radar.
He is the only dog I have ever seen who can take 10 minutes to eat a mouthfull of prime beef .

Thank you again.🌼🌼🌼


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

Heidigsd said:


> There is a Facebook group (Pet Vet Corner) where veterinarians donate their time. If you're on Facebook, it's worth a try, I have seen several specialists comment on this group. They get a lot of requests but maybe they see yours and respond. Pet Vet Corner ℠ (ONLY APPROVED VETERINARIANS COMMENT) | Facebook


 Oh thank you!

I will check this out immediately.
Fingers crossed there is some take away from it 🌺🌺


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

Please take a look at this: Subcutaneous & Cutaneous Hemangiosarcoma in Dogs - Central Toronto Veterinary Referral Clinic

We just had this come up with another member. There are apparently several different kinds of hemangio. One kind ("visceral" or "splenic" HSA) affects the organs--that's the fast-moving cancer most of us know that usually presents first in the spleen -- it's highly metastatic, and by the time you find it, it's usually already spread. Those dogs live just a few weeks beyond diagnosis most of the time -- days to weeks is typical, due to internal bleeding.

The other kind ("cutaneous" and "subcutaneous" HSA) presents as lumps and growths. We haven't had many members report it, so I think it must be far less common in our breed than the splenic kind.

Apparently, cutaneous kind is less aggressive and has lower rates of metastasis, especially if they're removed early with clean margins. Subcutaneous can be more aggressive and surgery can be far more challenging, but median survival times look slightly longer than with the splenic kind.

Importantly, don't take anything anyone says about their experience with splenic hemangio as necessarily applying to _your_ dog. A lot of those splenic hemangio threads might not apply to your situation. I think these dogs are supposed to stay out of the sun, from what I remember seeing, but I also think you need to have an oncologist guiding you on this, if possible. Pain meds and blind dogs are a challenge -- I have a blind dog, and he can only have gabapentin at night (it messes up his "Nav" otherwise). He does pretty well with NSAIDs though.

Can you make an appointment with an oncologist to get some suggestions, other than chemo? They might perhaps be able to do the newer "pulsed" oral chemo (meds sent home), or help you with meds to keep him comfortable. Otherwise I would totally be putting a dog with this on Turkey Tail mushrooms and whatever else Penn tells you about -- I think they used I'm Yunity brand of mushroom extract in some of those studies: Compound Derived From a Mushroom Lengthens Survival Time in Dogs With Cancer, Penn Vet Study Finds | Penn Today


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## Bknmaizey (Sep 16, 2019)

Sorry to hear about your diagnosis. Just wanted to second what ksotto said. It won't make it easier, but sounds like Radar was incredibly lucky to have found you. I know you'll make the best of the time you have left, but clearly you also made the best of the last 7 years, too.


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Yes, the Italian Greyhound that I lost to hemangiosarcoma started out with small blue/black growths on his skin. There were several over a few years time, and then they started multiplying quickly. He was a mostly white IG, and apparently that form of hemangiomasarcoma is not uncommon in the white dogs. At some point though, down the line, he had a bleed, and then we lost him a couple weeks later.


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## TXRanger (10 mo ago)

Interesting that you said the white dogs being more prone to this horrible cancer. We lost two white GSDs to it. These dogs were totally unrelated. Trooper was 11 when he started not feeling well. Took him to the vet, but tests didn’t show anything. Then, one day he just collapsed, pale gums and felt very cold. Vet thought it was his spleen and scheduled him for surgery the next morning. Once they saw the massive bleeding and the liver and spleen totally consumed by cancer, they didn’t revive him and just let him go. With Cooper it was very similar. Practically no warning. He started having an ear problem, we thought. Kept shaking his head. Took him to the vet several times with minimal improvement. He put him on antibiotics and for about a week he seemed better. Then, one Sunday morning, he just collapsed and was unable to get up. We took him to the emergency hospital where he was quickly diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma. At this point, he had massive internal bleeding and was beyond any treatment. So we decided to let him go. We stayed with him, but he didn’t even seem to be aware we were there anymore. Both of these dogs were incredibly wonderful. Just about the most perfect dog you could ever hope for. After a while, I really missed having a GSD but decided against getting another white one. So now we have Ranger who turned 8 months old today.







Cooper and the kitty







Ranger


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

Magwart said:


> Please take a look at this: Subcutaneous & Cutaneous Hemangiosarcoma in Dogs - Central Toronto Veterinary Referral Clinic
> 
> We just had this come up with another member. There are apparently several different kinds of hemangio. One kind ("visceral" or "splenic" HSA) affects the organs--that's the fast-moving cancer most of us know that usually presents first in the spleen -- it's highly metastatic, and by the time you find it, it's usually already spread. Those dogs live just a few weeks beyond diagnosis most of the time -- days to weeks is typical, due to internal bleeding.
> 
> ...


Magwort thank you so much for this. I have read the report and it comments on the exact issue we are having with Radar, specifically :
The challenge is to identify the extent of the lesion to be removed. In some instances the lesion can be easily identified and surgery is possible. In others, it is nearly impossible to identify the actual tumour. Unfortunately if the tumour is sufficiently large and cannot be clearly delineated, surgery is not possible. A significant post-operative complication for incompletely resected subcutaneous HSA is continued subcutaneous bleeding. The degree of bleeding can be significant and may lead to severe and even life threatening anemia.

Radar's lesions are large and multi sited, no clear margins can be accomplished & the amount of tissue which would need to be removed would be impossible to achieve.
Our Vet has made an appointment for us with an oncologist to discuss some new therapy which I understand comes in the form of once monthly injection. I don't yet know the details or indeed if it is suitable for Radar but we will at least have the conversation.

I hear you on the "nav" situation , we discovered that by accident after some dental surgery two years ago.

You are really kind to go to the trouble to post this for Radar, we are very thankful 🌼🌼


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

Bknmaizey said:


> Sorry to hear about your diagnosis. Just wanted to second what ksotto said. It won't make it easier, but sounds like Radar was incredibly lucky to have found you. I know you'll make the best of the time you have left, but clearly you also made the best of the last 7 years, too.


🥰 Honestly, we are the lucky ones. He is a one in a lifetime dog.....not for any reason of brilliance or endeavour but simply because of his unique & special personality.
He is 7yo & still acts like like an 8 week only pup, he still runs & plays just like that, you know, head down & the front paws circling & banging down in front of him. 

🌼🌼🥰


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

dogfaeries said:


> Yes, the Italian Greyhound that I lost to hemangiosarcoma started out with small blue/black growths on his skin. There were several over a few years time, and then they started multiplying quickly. He was a mostly white IG, and apparently that form of hemangiomasarcoma is not uncommon in the white dogs. At some point though, down the line, he had a bleed, and then we lost him a couple weeks later.


Im so sorry, it's just rotten feeling like you aren't doing enough, when in fact I suppose we are doing as much as we can 🥰🥰


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## RadarDaisy (11 mo ago)

TXRanger said:


> Interesting that you said the white dogs being more prone to this horrible cancer. We lost two white GSDs to it. These dogs were totally unrelated. Trooper was 11 when he started not feeling well. Took him to the vet, but tests didn’t show anything. Then, one day he just collapsed, pale gums and felt very cold. Vet thought it was his spleen and scheduled him for surgery the next morning. Once they saw the massive bleeding and the liver and spleen totally consumed by cancer, they didn’t revive him and just let him go. With Cooper it was very similar. Practically no warning. He started having an ear problem, we thought. Kept shaking his head. Took him to the vet several times with minimal improvement. He put him on antibiotics and for about a week he seemed better. Then, one Sunday morning, he just collapsed and was unable to get up. We took him to the emergency hospital where he was quickly diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma. At this point, he had massive internal bleeding and was beyond any treatment. So we decided to let him go. We stayed with him, but he didn’t even seem to be aware we were there anymore. Both of these dogs were incredibly wonderful. Just about the most perfect dog you could ever hope for. After a while, I really missed having a GSD but decided against getting another white one. So now we have Ranger who turned 8 months old today.


Ranger they are both beauties, as is the little wanna be 😂 

Funny you say Cooper started with an ear issue, Radar started like that too. He has had meds for it, but it hasn't cleared up to my satisfaction although nothing untoward has shown up on examination, but I know there is something subtle still going on with his ear. 
I'm sort of afraid to think about it too much as I can also feel quite a pronounced bump/lump on his head & my imagination is going into overdrive. 

I am unbelievably grateful to you all for your interest and help. You really are the best bunch, I was feeling so lost with this but now at least I have new information & potential new questions to ask his team. I feel I am doing something to help him rather than just the cuddles......of which there are very many 😂


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

RadarDaisy said:


> Im so sorry, it's just rotten feeling like you aren't doing enough, when in fact I suppose we are doing as much as we can


You do feel helpless. It never really occurred to me that I would lose Boz to this cancer, back when we were removing his growths. I do find interesting that both of your dogs were also white. I’m so sorry about your loss


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## dogfaeries (Feb 22, 2010)

Ah I see they were TXRanger’s dogs that were white. So sorry.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

RadarDaisy said:


> Our boy Radar, blind, neutered, 7 yo - he had many issues at birth & in his first few weeks of life which left him with a number of deficits, mostly cognitive, - was diagnosed with Hemangiosarcoma about 3 weeks ago.


I have no advice or experience with this type of hemangiosarcoma, but I am so sorry you and your precious boy have to go through this.


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## Rosebud99 (9 mo ago)

Jax08 said:


> Bartonella bacteria found in canine HSA tumors


Wow! I had not heard of that before. Thanks for that link.


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## Magwart (Jul 8, 2012)

I just posted about FidoCure, which may be of interest. Your vet would have to sign up with them for you to be able to access it (most vets who are with them are oncologists, but they do allow general-practice vets to bring them clients too):








New cancer resource: FidoCure targeted cancer therapy


As some of you know from private conversations, the dog I'm closest to was recently diagnosed with a primary lung tumor (carcinoma), in a location where surgery isn't a viable option, per the CT scan. I've gone from stunned to shattered to determined to get him as many good months as we...




www.germanshepherds.com


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