# An update on my puppy with fear aggression



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

I’ve not posted in a while on my puppy progress as things have been quite busy. Unfortunately it appears we didn’t socialize our puppy enough during our Covid lockdown and are now dealing with a puppy who is fear aggressive towards people and dogs. It also seems there is a genetic component despite an excellent breeding. He’s only 19 weeks old so we are trying to mitigate the issue as much as possible as there is still time to do so although it’s not possible to undo fully. We’re using a behaviourist to get techniques to help him to be more comfortable with people and dogs using counter conditioning and desensitization. It’s going very slow but we’ve had a few small victories. Fortunately he does have good bite inhibition (1 on scale of 0 to 5) and is social once he overcomes the anxiety and fear. I feel so guilty we caused this as he is really great with us and has huge potential. I’ll keep updating as we progress. We re not giving up on him despite a trainer saying as far as he was concerned our puppy is a lost cause.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Just some observations.

Very few dogs are lost causes. Very very few. Trainers on the other hand...

Most owners that are working with fear based reactivity are constantly worrying about an outburst when they see a potential trigger. They telegraph this anxiety down the leash and the dog is much more likely to react. I understand that it is difficult to control your emotions, but you have to set the example, including after the dog reacts.

My success with reactive dogs starts off in my home. I bring them in and they immediately are exposed to stable dogs who react only at appropriate times. This immersion and canine leadership drastically reduce the time it takes to desensitize a dog to normal life.

I also do a lot of hiking in areas where the dog will not be triggered. That time allows the dog to relax, burn off some stress and energy, learn to follow me for fun stuff, and learn some basic OB in a play type environment.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

@David Winners I wholly agree about not being a lost cause. I think that comment was due to the fact I was choosing to use the behaviourist’s suggestions and not the training facility’s. Despite decades of experience and thousands of dogs trained (which is actually very true in this case- he is a successful trainer) the owner of the facility was not open at all to what I was saying and basically told me I was dooming my dog to be a fear biter and a life caged or worse. At first I got upset then I got ticked off. I just had Django eating cheese out of a strangers hand by using the methods taught to me and not for the first time now. I also agree about burning energy. Django is a working line and bred for IGP so incredibly full of energy and needs physical and mental stimulation. We are working on engagement and focus plus building confidence. He went down a slide today - first time hesitated then no problem! Even tried to run back up himself. I’ve been working on really fun interactive play and engagement. I’m open to suggestions and appreciate your comments very much as I care enough about my puppy to work with him as we expect to be with him 10+ years. I’m also very fortunate to be working with a fabulous behaviourist. I’ll take all the help I can and have no problem accosting strangers to toss cheese lol (safely controlled of course).


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

David Winners said:


> They telegraph this anxiety down the leash and the dog is much more likely to react. I understand that it is difficult to control your emotions, but you have to set the example, including after the dog reacts.


 I agree and can't stress enough how important this is especially when working with a puppy. I am an emotional person and when I walked and saw a dog that looked pretty calm or small moving in our direction, I had to examine my emotions and make sure I do NOTHING to the leash, my hands, my pace, my words, nothing and just kept approaching the dogs. It is harder than it sounds. Loose leash. I let my dog work things out in his own head while we were approaching, but if I saw a tension building up (body language) I got a toy, a quick food game, redirected his attention to me. I am not subscribing to trying to put my pup in a sit and force looking into my eyes, in my experience, it builds anxiety. So my choice is 'On by' which means we keep doing what we are doing regardless who or what is next to us, but my dog is allowed to look if he wants to. Same with people.

Also, there will be times when a direct encounter is unavoidable. If I see the other dog is friendly I let it happen and give my dog the entire length of the leash so there will be no additional pressure from me hovering or yelling at the other owner or any negativity.

I don't know his breeding, but some dogs can be nervy as pups but it doesn't mean fearful or weak nerves. They will outgrow it with right approach. Some pups are genetically fearful and will require life long management and right environment. I would look for another trainer just to get a different opinion and help you evaluate.

ETA: I don't let strangers feed my dog or toss cheese, I want a people neutral dog. I give treats to my dog myself. What will happen if your dog starts expecting treats from strangers as you are building value for them? Will he get upset if a stranger doesn't give him a treat one day? Will he start pulling towards strangers and bark with excitement? It may be a good approach for your dog but just some food for thought.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

GSD07 said:


> I agree and can't stress enough how important this is especially when working with a puppy. I am an emotional person and when I walked and saw a dog that looked pretty calm or small moving in our direction, I had to examine my emotions and make sure I do NOTHING to the leash, my hands, my pace, my words, nothing and just keep approaching the dogs. It is harder than it sounds. Loose leash. I let my dog work things out on in his own head while we were approaching, but if I saw a tension building up (body language) I got a toy, a quick food game, redirected his attention to me. I am not subscribing to trying to put my pup in a sit and force looking into my eyes, in my experience, it builds anxiety. So my choice is 'On by' which means we keep doing what we are doing regardless who or what is next to us, but my dog is allowed to look if he wants to. Same with people.
> 
> Also, there will be times when a direct encounter is unavoidable. If I see the other dog is friendly I let it happen and give my dog the entire length of the leash so there will be no additional pressure from me hovering or yelling on the other owner or any negativity.
> 
> ...


The food is a counter conditioning technique. It teaches the dog good things happen when strangers appear. It’s called treat/retreat. He will eventually learn that a stranger isn’t danger and if he’s focused on me, they will eventually become neutral. Right now he lights up if strangers are perceived to be too close but this technique has yielded very positive results. I just have to watch that we don’t push him over his threshold. I’m also working on OB myself for now together with help from the behaviourist. I will likely go back to try IGP once he is less reactive to people and dogs as that is very structured OB. He can do it for sure - he is actually very good otherwise. He understands sit/stay and down/stay plus heeling, drop it, leave it etc. He’s not even 5 months old so my expectations are tailored to his age. He is still a baby. It’s interesting he is very social with people and dogs once he can overcome the fear/anxiety. He goes to a private puppy care 2 days a week (with very stable dogs limited to 2 others maximum) and the owner says he’s great with the dogs and the people in the household. We have a long road but I believe with patience and perseverance he’ll at least be able to ignore strangers and dogs and not be reactive even though he’ll likely never be fully suspicion free. I am surprised he is so reactive. He had a super breeding but that’s the hand we were dealt.


----------



## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

Agis was dog reactive when he was younger - I'd say he's 95% better now - and because he liked some dogs, when we saw a strange dog, I'd try to create space but I'd also speak very brightly and happily (I still do this) - 'Look Agis, a friend' (even if we'd never met the dog before). It relaxed me AND him - but most importantly, me, because I am definitely letting tension travel down the leash otherwise and I knew it was something I needed to work on.

Yesterday we visited my husband's family (outdoors and distanced) to give one of the kids her birthday present (11! time flies). The backyard gate opened and out charged our SIL's Australian Shepherd...which got our beagle's back up, despite him knowing her and having happily gone on hikes with her - he bayed, and then the Aussie and Agis erupted into snarling and barking - she was darting/charging at our guys. I stayed calm and Agis calmed quicker than he would've in the past (the other dog then ran out into the road and nearly got hit by a car). 

None of the dogs were at their best. But that Agis calmed down more quickly than I expected despite ample provocation...it's something he's learned to do, and I think me being calmer helped him too. 

But it's not just Agis who has learned to be calmer, I've learned/gotten better at relaxing too. It is something you can learn.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

@jarn yes! On our first outing with the behaviourist a loose dog charged up and my instinct was to pull Django away. I got told that was the wrong response. She pointed out he is known to be good with dogs and she could see the other dog was very friendly so I unwittingly reinforced his fear. It’s hard to break human habits. We automatically want to tell our dogs to be quiet or correct for what we perceive to be wrong behaviour. With a fear reactive dog we have to change our mindset so we don’t reinforce the behaviour. It’s hard as we’ve never had this issue before but if he can learn so can I.


----------



## jarn (Jul 18, 2007)

It's definitely a learning process. I am getting way better but there are times...I just try to say to myself, you're not perfect, but you're improving too.


----------



## San (Mar 22, 2012)

I have a Malinois that is fearful of people and she is my IGP dog. She came from a very reputable kennel (breeder did offer me an exchange/refund but I decided to keep her).

We tried having people offer her treats as a puppy, but her food drive was low and it stressed her out even more. As a puppy, she barked/growled at anyone who looked at her, and if anyone tried to pet her, she would snap (that’s after I told them NOT to touch her). We ended up doing a lot of passive socialization (just letting her observe/watch from a distance without expecting her to interact).

Fast forward to now, she is 2.5 years old. I can work her amongst strangers off-leash. She no longer growls and barks at people, she is now curious enough that she will voluntarily go up to strangers to sniff them, and if they offer her a treat, she will take it. If a stranger tries to touch her, she simply backs away instead of going forward at them.
What really made a difference for us for me learning how to play with her and use “play” to teach her rules and guide her in the right direction.

Looking back, one thing that I would’ve done differently was not worry so much about her response to people/socialization. I would’ve spent all her puppy months just developing her “play.” You cannot change genetics but you can guide it. My little girl was anti-social. As an adult, she is still anti-social, but she understands what she can and cannot do, and it’s all that matters. Plus she has great work ethnics, is super smart, is easy to travel with and settles very nicely in the house. 

We foster for a GSD rescue and we’ve used “play” to help multiple fearful foster dogs. One GSD was with the rescue for over a year, adopted and returned twice due to fearfulness to people. We took him in for a month, taught him how to play fetch (in a structured way), and then took him to different dog clubs to get him to play fetch with “strangers.” He was adopted shortly after. The adopters were given instructions on how to use “play” to introduce him to visitors/strangers, it has been over six months and he is doing great in his new home.

Ivan Balabanov’s “Chase and Catch 2.0” video has a section on how to introduce a fearful dog to strangers via “play,” I highly recommend it.

Here's a video when my girl after she just turned 2, took her to a brand new facility with a bunch of strangers, she did great.
Here's her learning how to heel around people.
Here's a recent video of her at agility (we are taking agility classes to learn hurdle/A-frame mechanics), she has gotten more confident and is now offering play to her agility instructor, which she did not do as a puppy.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

@San that’s so good to hear. I really want to do IGP with Django. I think your point about play and enjoying him as a puppy is good. We have really been working on it. We’re mostly doing a treat toss past him with strangers. He is very food motivated right now so I’m taking advantage of it. I am also doing a fair bit of passive watching just under his threshold. We’re doing more tug but with rules. I’m also working on having him drop a ball before I throw a second. My behaviourist also talked about Ivan Balabanov so I’m going to check it out. Your story gives me such hope. I’d never give Django up. He is so much fun even if he can be a goof sometimes lol and we’ve totally grown to love him. I appreciate all the support from the people on this forum. People here really are a wonderful resource and so kind to share ideas and experiences so thank you!


----------



## HollandN (Aug 12, 2020)

Thank you for starting this thread reading it was helpful Hope you will continue to post updates


----------



## WNGD (Jan 15, 2005)

I stiull don't understand why a trainer would call a 19 week old puppy a lost cause .....


----------



## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

cagal said:


> We re not giving up on him despite a trainer saying as far as he was concerned our puppy is a lost cause.


Well, in the words of my previous cult leader, "Never Give Up." Its sad about ur pup, seems like another mental health causality of the pandemic. The best GSDs ive ever lived with, were super socialized as a pup... meaning tons of people constantly milling about. When I was stationed in Wiesbaden Air Station in the 70s, the army would socialize the GSD guard dogs by penning them out front of the admin building in the mornings, and let peeps give them some love there. Big signs Do Not Feed the Dogs but nobody listened to that (well, I didn't). They were adorable, and Im sure most grew up to be fearless leaders on the line (but perhaps not the one I always fed croissants to in the morning, for months!). Oh well... not every dog is destined for greatness.









This is kdog when he was a pup, and lived below us in the studio full time. He was always there with clients, and made his way into countless youtube videos by the artists that fell in love with him. I completely believe that was the key to his kind gentle but protective personality that could tell the dif between the good guys and the bad.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

@WNGD That upset me greatly I have to admit and I (briefly) questioned if I was even going to keep Django because of his comment. I left in tears but by the time I got home I was ticked. It boils down to he thinks behaviour modification/positive reinforcement training is “politically correct” but garbage and only using aversive training is the correct way to train a dog based on his decades of experience. He said I allowed Django to react instead of correcting him (exact words were I never taught him “no”) so Django was already a lost cause as far as he was concerned as puppies should be running up licking you and not barking/lunging.


----------



## herojig (Apr 3, 2013)

cagal said:


> @WNGD It boils down to he thinks behaviour modification/positive reinforcement training is “politically correct” but garbage and only using aversive training is the correct way to train a dog based on his decades of experience.


Well, that's one opinion. I guess we have to look at the history of animal training /husbandry throughout time, up until today. One cannot deny the vast majority of animals are trained using intimidation and torture as the primary behavior modification methodology. But just as there are many ways to skin a cat, there are many ways to train a pet - without ever having to raise your voice, let alone smack or yank the dog or worse. So no, positive reinforcement is not _garbage_, even if it's currently politically correct. And as for your trainer, well, seems like that person is challenged as well, along with your pup.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I believe the first 16 weeks is overplayed by a lot of people. There was a dog who came to our club at 2 years old. Fearful of people, environmentally unsure. After a couple of months of working she settled in nicely and looks to be a well balanced dog. Where before she would shrink away and hide from people, now she is perfectly comfortable being approached and interacting with strangers. I don’t believe in looking at root causes to make excuses or cast blame. I believe in doing it to correct the problem and prevent it in the future.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

cagal said:


> @WNGD That upset me greatly I have to admit and I (briefly) questioned if I was even going to keep Django because of his comment. I left in tears but by the time I got home I was ticked. It boils down to he thinks behaviour modification/positive reinforcement training is “politically correct” but garbage and only using aversive training is the correct way to train a dog based on his decades of experience. He said I allowed Django to react instead of correcting him (exact words were I never taught him “no”) so Django was already a lost cause as far as he was concerned as puppies should be running up licking you and not barking/lunging.


I’m almost always disappointed in the trainers I hear about here. While I’m not against adversives there’s a time and place for everything.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

I agree that there is definitely a place for firm but fair corrections. I used a prong on my last GSD no problem. There was a lot more to the conversation where he trashed my puppy’s pedigree because of his Czech lines although he admitted he wasn’t familiar with the parents. He’s entitled to his opinion and I’m entitled to mine so I’ll work on it and keep everyone updated. We had a good morning today where he was able to observe off leash dogs fairly close but then it went to heck in a hand basket when cars, dogs and runners all went by. It was a very noisy return trip home. Patience, patience, patience.


----------



## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Bearshandler said:


> After a couple of months of working she settled in nicely and looks to be a well balanced dog.


I would argue that early exposure may have removed this introductory period. It's impossible to know of course. Just my observation that dogs who are exposed early, in a positive way, struggle less later in life.


----------



## Heartandsoul (Jan 5, 2012)

This is just a thought but at 19 weeks old, doe the behaviorist have a very stable teacher dog who she could use. Let both your pup and the dog off leash so the teacher dog can work with the pup with out leash hindrance?

im only saying this because I my previ9us b9y was dog reactive all his life and 69% of it was my fault. He did learn to behave but it never was gone. But I never allowed free play with a stable dog.

I learned a ton from him And doing things a bit differently now. I think a good solid teacher dog will help hasten the learning process for your pup. I normally wouldnt encourage a fast process but i Think at 19 weeks time should be considered. Don’t drag the process out if you don’t have to.

just my two cents.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

@Heartandsoul yes. We did some work with a very stable service dog. We’ve only had 2 sessions so far but we’ll continue to work. Django does go to an in-home puppy day care and the owner’s dog is super socialized so he’s getting good interaction. There are only ever 2 dogs besides the owner’s and it’s mostly just the 2 of them. The owner said he’s great although a bit of a pest actually with the older dog. He does seem to have some barrier frustrations so that’s not helping when we’re on leash.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

I suspected actually that your dog has Czech lines that’s why I mentioned earlier that the behavior in a young dog does not always equal weak nerves and fear.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

David Winners said:


> I would argue that early exposure may have removed this introductory period. It's impossible to know of course. Just my observation that dogs who are exposed early, in a positive way, struggle less later in life.


It’s possible. My philosophy is as long as they aren’t being put through a bunch of negative experiences early on your fine. I don’t think a dogs future is locked in place at 16 weeks or that you’re set up for a life of struggles if you don’t take your a dog a bunch of places by then.


----------



## AKD (Jul 18, 2020)

David Winners said:


> Just some observations.
> 
> Very few dogs are lost causes. Very very few. Trainers on the other hand...
> 
> ...


This is so so so true. I have to keep reminding myself when I walk Trinity, if I continue to just walk as if there is nothing going on all she does is very curiously continue to watch the other dog until there is enough distance and then continue walking. The moment I try to pull her close to me or say "no" or some crap like that I am almost certain she barks .. she thinks any little thing that I do as a sign that she has to do something about that other dog.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

I’ve decided to write a little update as there seems to have been posts lately with some behaviour issues which mirror ours or have probably progressed from where Django was a few weeks ago. Django is just over 5 months old. He’s still reactive but we’ve seen improvements. Cars are much more tolerated and we can now walk within about 6 feet of people. Just a few weeks ago, 10 feet was about the trigger point. He’s allowed a few people handle him but we need to work on more people socialization. He is also recovering far more quickly from triggers. Loose leash walking is coming along nicely and he obeys commands well. We’re also working on “place” so we can take the mat with us to go chill and observe at parks etc to give another calm layer of socialization. It’s slow going but going in the right direction. He’s been teething so a bit cranky but we seem to be over the worst of it. We’re not on a prong yet but may start at 6 months to correct behaviour that is more “being a jerk” related rather than legitimate fear. I’m also going to start muzzle training so we can work on people socialization more comfortably. He’s a mouther not a biter but I don’t want to take chances. It’s taking a lot of time and patience but he’s such a great dog once he lets his guard down so well worth the time and effort. I’ll continue to keep everyone posted.


----------



## Davycc (Jun 16, 2021)

cagal said:


> I’ve decided to write a little update as there seems to have been posts lately with some behaviour issues which mirror ours or have probably progressed from where Django was a few weeks ago. Django is just over 5 months old. He’s still reactive but we’ve seen improvements. Cars are much more tolerated and we can now walk within about 6 feet of people. Just a few weeks ago, 10 feet was about the trigger point. He’s allowed a few people handle him but we need to work on more people socialization. He is also recovering far more quickly from triggers. Loose leash walking is coming along nicely and he obeys commands well. We’re also working on “place” so we can take the mat with us to go chill and observe at parks etc to give another calm layer of socialization. It’s slow going but going in the right direction. He’s been teething so a bit cranky but we seem to be over the worst of it. We’re not on a prong yet but may start at 6 months to correct behaviour that is more “being a jerk” related rather than legitimate fear. I’m also going to start muzzle training so we can work on people socialization more comfortably. He’s a mouther not a biter but I don’t want to take chances. It’s taking a lot of time and patience but he’s such a great dog once he lets his guard down so well worth the time and effort. I’ll continue to keep everyone posted.


Looks like you're getting on well. Good luck with the future training.


----------



## Sabis mom (Mar 20, 2014)

GSD07 said:


> ETA: I don't let strangers feed my dog or toss cheese, I want a people neutral dog. I give treats to my dog myself. What will happen if your dog starts expecting treats from strangers as you are building value for them? Will he get upset if a stranger doesn't give him a treat one day? Will he start pulling towards strangers and bark with excitement? It may be a good approach for your dog but just some food for thought.


Shadow was such a challenge as a pup that I resorted to strangers giving treats. My previous dogs were specifically taught not to take food, but in her case I needed to get out of my comfort zone. It isn't a method I'm comfortable with, but it works in some cases.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

Sabis mom said:


> Shadow was such a challenge as a pup that I resorted to strangers giving treats. My previous dogs were specifically taught not to take food, but in her case I needed to get out of my comfort zone. It isn't a method I'm comfortable with, but it works in some cases.


I’m pretty sure Django will never be a dog that runs up to people looking for food or have that expectation. He is now accepting a treat and allowing a person to walk nearby without having a conniption but otherwise is ignoring the person (which is what we really want). Fortunately my receptionist really loves animals so she’s meeting me at lunch on days I work from home and we are walking. I’ve noticed he ignores her after she tosses a few bits of cheese unless there’s a trigger overload then he’s like “hey you’re scary again” and mouths at her clothes (did that twice today after a bunch of cars and another dog all ended up in the picture at once). But we did walk together on a sidewalk with him on the outside quite comfortably for a good half hour. Small progress but progress nonetheless.


----------



## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

cagal said:


> I’m pretty sure Django will never be a dog that runs up to people looking for food or have that expectation. He is now accepting a treat and allowing a person to walk nearby without having a conniption but otherwise is ignoring the person (which is what we really want). Fortunately my receptionist really loves animals so she’s meeting me at lunch on days I work from home and we are walking. I’ve noticed he ignores her after she tosses a few bits of cheese unless there’s a trigger overload then he’s like “hey you’re scary again” and mouths at her clothes (did that twice today after a bunch of cars and another dog all ended up in the picture at once). But we did walk together on a sidewalk with him on the outside quite comfortably for a good half hour. Small progress but progress nonetheless.


Now there's a love button and you're the first one.


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

Thanks! I’m glad I’m not your first angry face lol


----------



## cagal (Sep 3, 2013)

I thought I’d give another update as we move along in training. We have a long way to go but things are much improved. Reactivity has gone from a 9/10 to more like a 3/10. The trainer has indicated he’s actually very confident now but unfortunately he’s turned into a bit of a rear end orifice lol. So, now the prong is on him and we are enforcing good behavior through positive punishment. My vet noted he behaved the best he’s seen him yesterday at an appointment (he usually barks and mouths a bit but is generally ok). He went with the tech with no barking, no snapping and was completely calm when they had to check his eye (he has puppy conjunctivitis). We went on two walks with no reaction to other dogs on the path that were reasonably close, no reaction to a bike rider, only looking at cars (there was a bit of barking at the bus but he recovered quickly). We passed a lot of people with no reaction but did have one blip. There was a person reaction at the very end of yesterday’s walk but it was a long day and he was getting quite tired and I noticed his pano was making him limp a bit so he was not able to control himself already. He’s just passed the 6 month mark so this is all very hopeful. I am starting muzzle training for my own comfort. I am also thinking to try IGP again soon once I’m comfortable he will just ignore the handlers. We will only focus on tracking and obedience for now. These posts give me a good record of his progress so thanks for the opportunity to note all this down.


----------

