# Cesar Millan Illusion Collar



## Lilly Pad (Feb 6, 2008)

Has anyone had any experince with this? It looks less painful than the prong collar but it is very expensive and I don`t want to waste my money. Thanks


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## DianaM (Jan 5, 2006)

Have you put on a properly sized prong and used it on yourself (on your thigh, the closest approximation)? They really don't hurt unless you yank the crap out of your dog which is something that should not be done except if you have a dog with high pain tolerance in a situation which warrants an extreme correction. Looks are deceiving, and though this collar looks like a wonderful idea for torture, it's really not. Get a good brand like Herm Sprenger, not a pet store brand, as those have rounded ends as opposed to potentially sharp ends.


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## Lilly Pad (Feb 6, 2008)

I have Herm Spenger for her but by the time I get it to stay high on her neck there are only 6 prongs on it. I guess I just want something more comfortable for her.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

What size of prong collar do you have, Lilly's Mom? 

The reason I'm asking is that many people with big dogs will automatically go for the larger-size prong collars, such as the Medium and Large sizes. But when you have a dog with a more slender neck, you end up with a lot of chain and not a whole lot of prongs, as you've found out. One thing you could do would be to purchase a small prong collar and buy additional links if they are needed.

I have to admit that I don't like the Illusion Collar because it's basically a contraption designed to help you keep a choke collar on the upper part of the dog's neck. Are you comfortable using a choke? If so, you can probably learn ways of keeping it up on your dog's neck without the Illusion Collar.


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## Lilly Pad (Feb 6, 2008)

I bought the medium prong. It only has 6 prongs on it now as her neck it 17inches under the ears.I have a choke chain but I dislike it and she pulls hard into it. She has recently undergone heartworm treatment and I know that when she goes out for her first walk after a month of confinement she will be a wrangatang. The prong will probably control her better than anything.


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

If the choke does not work for you, the Illusion Collar very likely will not, either. Like I said, it's just to keep a choke (a nylon one) high up on the neck. Same concept as the choke you already have, just makes it easier to keep it up high.

I would order a small size prong (and if needed, extra links) instead, personally.


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## Riley's Mom (Jun 7, 2007)

I have one, but I didn't much care for it. I followed the instructions but I'm still not sure I had it on him right. It sure made him look like he had a case of giraffe-neck syndrome which bothered me tremendously. I do not think I gave it a fair trial, however. So you can count me "sitting on the fence" for my opinion. I know that's not much help. I couldn't help thinking why I don't like turtle neck sweaters so I don't wear them. Similar principal.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

Lilly's Mom, did you buy the 'big girl prong' collar with the large prongs, that SEEMS like the appropriate size?

Of the size smaller that's actually IDEAL for our dog (even the biggest GSD's). The point you made about more individual links is important. So the smaller the link, the more of them. Also, they can be fitted more accurately, doesn't make such a huge difference when you just add/remove a single link. And the smaller collar is much easier for me to separate the links to get the collar on and off.

Here's photos to compare the links. I use the smaller ones now (collar on top):










Here are both collars on Bretta:


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yeah, the I-collar is just a choke with an extra piece to keep the choke up high.

I use a prong with small links. I put it on my leg the other day, yanked and yanked (I would NEVER yank on a dog the way I was yanking) and it didn't hurt at all.

I do use slip/choke collars, but not for training or corrections. I use them just to move dogs in/out of the car or walking dogs that already are trained. Sometimes I use a prong, just depends on what I'm trying to accomplish. To me, fit is more important than placement. I don't think the prong needs to be under the dog's ears to work, but I do think it needs to be fit properly!

This is how I use a prong - snugly fitting, no slack in the chain (the collar can't hang or turn around on the neck), just above the ID collar but not necessarily way up high.


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## Bernadette (Aug 11, 2008)

so what do you use to train? I have read so many things and am now confused. I started my dog with a standard collar,then I read the Monks from New Skeet said they use a choke collar and so did a few other breeders. But I have also read that it can be dangerous if you are leaving your dog alone(in the yard or home) with this type of collar on. what would you recommend for training and everyday use?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

My "tag" collar is a Mountain choke with a screw-link coupler holding the two rings together so it cannot actually choke, with the tags dangling form the coupler as well. (It's basically a link / connector that screws closed, to keep tags safely on the collar.) I use that because it's quite narrow and doesn't mat down the fur - with Abby's coat, you can't even see it. 

My "everyday use" collar, for attaching the leash to, is a flat nylon or flat leather collar. When I need additional control, I use either a choke (a thicker gauge Mountain choke) or a prong collar.

ALL collars are dangerous when left on a dog that is unsupervised, especially on a dog inside a crate. Dogs attempting to escape from crates have been known to get hung up and choked to death on flat nylon collars, too. Leaving a dog with a choke collar on is even more dangerous, because if one of the rings gets caught on something and the dog panics, the dog will choke itself to death. 

If you have to leave a collar on an unsupervised dog, I would use a safety collar (flat nylon collar with an elastic section so it will stretch for the dog to pull his head out in an emergency) or a flat collar that is loose enough to where the dog could reasonably get his head out. (Or, like me, a loose, small gauge mountain choke rigged up in a way that makes it impossible for it to choke.)


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## extremegiants (Mar 16, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: LiesjeTo me, fit is more important than placement. I don't think the prong needs to be under the dog's ears to work, but I do think it needs to be fit properly!
> 
> This is how I use a prong - snugly fitting, no slack in the chain (the collar can't hang or turn around on the neck), just above the ID collar but not necessarily way up high.



I have seen it both high by the ears and low right above the collar. In the past I have used it up high (that's what I was taught), does anyone have a particular preference? Does it really matter where the prong is placed?


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:does anyone have a particular preference? Does it really matter where the prong is placed?


I think it comes down to personal preference and how much control you need to have. The higher up the prong sits, the more sensitive an area it is around. If someone needed the best possible amount of control and correction, higher up would be a better choice than around the center of the neck or the bottom of the neck, which are less sensitive than the area right behind the ears.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

> Originally Posted By: The_Big_Apple
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted By: LiesjeTo me, fit is more important than placement. I don't think the prong needs to be under the dog's ears to work, but I do think it needs to be fit properly!
> ...


I place mine in the middle. I don't think it *needs* to be way at the top, at least not for my dogs. I'm much more concerned that it FITS. Most prongs that look lower on the neck are because the collar is way to big and/or loose. Sometimes my dogs have more than one collar, and I prefer the prong collar be above their "ID" collar (collar that is always worn, holds ID tags, usually fits looser than the prong). Maybe if you have a really hard, drivey dog it needs to be up higher for the corrections to register.


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## BlackGSD (Jan 4, 2005)

> Originally Posted By: Liesje Maybe if you have a really hard, drivey dog it needs to be up higher for the corrections to register.


That is exactly right. With the Czech dog I had, if it wasn't right below his ears, it had no more effect than a flat collar.


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## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Male dogs have very powerful necks, lots of muscles and skin so I guess if the prong is not positioned high on the neck it doesn't provide an adequate correction. Anton's neck is already wider than Yana's (he's 8 months and she's 20 months).


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

> Originally Posted By: Historian
> ALL collars are dangerous when left on a dog that is unsupervised, especially on a dog inside a crate. Dogs attempting to escape from crates have been known to get hung up and choked to death on flat nylon collars, too. Leaving a dog with a choke collar on is even more dangerous, because if one of the rings gets caught on something and the dog panics, the dog will choke itself to death.
> 
> If you have to leave a collar on an unsupervised dog, I would use a safety collar (flat nylon collar with an elastic section so it will stretch for the dog to pull his head out in an emergency) or a flat collar that is loose enough to where the dog could reasonably get his head out. (Or, like me, a loose, small gauge mountain choke rigged up in a way that makes it impossible for it to choke.)


I use a breakaway collar for unsupervised dogs (it comes apart if it gets caught). The collar can also be used as a regular collar because it has 2 D-rings one on each side of the breakaway piece so if you want to use it with a leash you just hook the leash to both D-rings. I also have several Ruffwear Knot-A-Collars which loosen if caught.

When I used a prong in training (with a terrier) my trainer said the only dogs who need the larger prongs are giant breeds and those with VERY thick neck fur where the smaller links would not get through the fur. They said most dogs should use the smallest size prong and just buy extra links to fit the dog's neck.


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## hethir (Sep 25, 2008)

I just started using a prong collar last Saturday to be exact! The training facility I take my 4 month old Clutch to taught us how to properly use them and I am in love! She definitely said that it's better to use a small one and add more links than the large. And since they distribute pressure all around the neck instead of just in the front like a typical flat nylon collar on a pulling dog, they can be much safer in many cases. They do not hurt at all! I even put mine around my neck (Don't laugh, my hubby already made fun of me!) and it actually felt kinda good, like one of those massage prongy things. I heard somewhere that it works like accupressure around the neck. I heard that about the gentle leader too but not sure about that. I was also going to tell you that I LOVE the Monks of New Skete and read their books exclusively with my first dog. This lead me to do numerous "alpha roll-overs" because I was reading the 1976 version!!! Eep! They still have good stuff, just make sure you're reading the most up to date!


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## GSDog (Mar 5, 2008)

I was just about to go out and buy a prong collar for my dog. I pit stopped at the store and just had a look at them. There were the small links and the wide one. I thought of getting Major a the bigger links (choker) but from I read here you guys prefer the small one. My dog is one year old and now out of nowhere he decided to go for other dogs and ready to eat them if I would let go of the leash. The regular chokers does absolutely nothing to this dog. Nothing hurts him either. Hes like a wall. He weighs 100lbs right now and not finish growing







so i was going out to get him a prong to try that out. Here is a photo of Major and notice his neck. What do you think?

thank you


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## GSDog (Mar 5, 2008)

ok this photo is bigger maybe you will see the neck better


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

I think he's a gorgeous dog.









If you're going to train with a choke, it should sit high up on the neck, rather than at the very bottom where it lies in the picture. If the choke isn't working, like you said, you can try a head halter, a front-clip harness, or a prong collar as alternatives. 

If he has very thick hair, the small prong collars may not work well, so it would be good to try the different sizes and see which works. If you get the small links, you will most likely need to buy extra links to get the right fit on your dog.

This site - http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm - explains how to put on a prong collar correctly. I don't fit mine quite as high up, but I do have mine around the upper part of my dog's neck.


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## GSDog (Mar 5, 2008)

the choker you see on him now is only for around the house and yard. The front section of my yard isnt closed off. We dont let him go out on his own in the back because I have a neighbour that already have 2 dogs and Major will charge go behind the back to go bark and be mr. big boss. We did close that section off so he cant go now but we never use that choker for training. He has a smaller one and thinner one that goes under his chin. 

Last night I went to the store and I bought him a prong choker the big clips. I brought Major with me and I made sure no dog was in the store. Mind you there was a bulldog with the lady and he barked and growled but he was a good boy. The lady put the prong choker on and took one clip off its size 24" and I tried it on and walked a bit up and down with Major. BOY let me tell you one thing, he sure listened a lot more cause that bulldog was still there and Major wanted to go towards him and then I yanked the choker which was under his chin and he didnt dare move the wrong way. So that worked fine and I left it on him to the house. One problem though, its hard to take off. I have to ask my husband to take it off. The big clips are harder than the little clips to remove the choker from the dog. Then I decided to go try it out with a good walk. I put it back on Major and went out. I live infront of a big park where everyone walks their dog. Some leaves their dog loose and some are on the lease like they should be in a big city. Anyhow, I followed a woman with her little poodle and Major was eyeballing it. I stayed across the street for now just to see how he reacted. Usually Major would growl and pull and bark. I then yanked the choker for a few seconds longer so he understood, Hey I am the Boss and NOT you. Trust me he understood fast. I did 2 corners street with him following the other dog and he didnt say one word but kept looking at him. I kepts saying "Leave him alone" (cause we say that when he gets rough with our cat and he leaves him right away). The I decided to pass the other dog and cross the street on their side. He growled and I held the choker tighter and Major was lifting his front legs like trying to say Stop choking me. Which I did when he understood not to growl. He did stop growling. Mind you he had no choice . So while we were walking he understood and was behaving and I gave him a treat saying Good boy Major. I always bring a bag of treats now in my jacket and i play with the bag and he knows now. DO i growl and get choked or do i shut up and get a treat? lol...

All this to say, so far the prong is working. Tonight we will go for my powerwalk 5km.

Cheers


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## AbbyK9 (Oct 11, 2005)

> Quote:the choker you see on him now is only for around the house and yard.


My recommendation would be to get a flat nylon collar for this purpose instead of a choke chain, especially if your dog is unsupervised in the home or yard at any point. A choke can get hung up if the dog is playing or getting himself into trouble and can kill a dog.

Mind you, any collar on an unsupervised dog can kill the dog if it gets hung up, even a flat collar, but the risk is much higher with a choke. A choke is a training collar and should not stay on a dog as an ID collar.



> Quote:So that worked fine and I left it on him to the house. One problem though, its hard to take off. I have to ask my husband to take it off.


The prong collar should not stay on your dog in the house, it should only be on your dog when you are actively training and/or walking your dog. It's not a replacement for a regular ID collar.

If you have a difficult time getting it off and putting it on, I would practice doing it at home. It does get easier with practice. If you're still having difficulty after a few days, go online to one of the working dog suppliers, like Ray Allen or Elite K-9 and look at the Herm Sprenger prong collars they sell. There is one that has a quick-release clip on the chain part, and there's one that closes with a side-release buckle. Those are a good solution if you can't work the regular one.



> Quote:I then yanked the choker for a few seconds longer so he understood, Hey I am the Boss and NOT you.


Are you still talking about the prong collar? The right way to correct with a prong is to pull it tight real quick (like a quick jerking motion) and then immediately release it again. Don't pull and hold it. Ideally, every time you correct, it should be with a voice command added, such as "Leave it!" so that you can eventually go to giving just the voice command (while he has the prong, in case you need to correct) and then eventually to the voice command only. 

I think you were trying to do too much too fast with the new prong. You are setting your dog up for failure by placing him in a setting with loads of other dogs and correcting him for growling and barking. You need to set him up for success, in places where it's not too busy with dogs at first, and work on "leave it". Then praise and reward when he doesn't bark or growl, rather than just correcting for barking and growling.

You can seriously hurt the relationship you have with your dog by using the prong, or any training device wrongly. If you know any trainers who can show you how to use it correctly and how to time your corrections, that would be very helpful to you.


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## GSDog (Mar 5, 2008)

"The right way to correct with a prong is to pull it tight real quick (like a quick jerking motion)"

Sorry didnt mean to say YANK IT. Yes i do what you said just a quick jerking motion and then I release it. And when I said for a few seconds it was like a few "jerking movements" in a row. I wouldnt hurt him for the world. And yes when he doesnt bark or growl I always say good dog and scratch him behind the ear which he likes. Then I will give him a treat that i carry in my pocket. I only went out for 15ish minutes for him to get use to having the prong around his neck. After all, it is something new and don't want him to panic either. But when I did "jerked the prong" he did stop the barking, growling and pulling when he saw the other dog. Also he wont be wearing the prong in the house nor the yard. This choker is ONLY for walking and that's it. And the day he understands, there is no need to be mr macho, he wont be wearing the prong. He will be going back to a normal chain choker. 

I was looking into the ECollar, but I said to myself, before investing that much money I will try the prong first and see how that goes. A dog is a dog. No matter what you always have to be there to supervise. I wouldnt leave him for a minute outside on his own. I live in a big city and takes just one second for a dog to cross a street and get hit. Hes still young and still learning. Just like a kid, you wouldnt leave a child on its own outside. 

Tonight I will go back for a longer walk and I am sure he will do fine. (cross my fingers lol)

thanks for the input you guys are great
cheers


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