# Cadaver dogs and water?



## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

I am not sure if this would fall under SAR or not, so I am posting it here.

We have a missing man from the local area. They have brought in a cadaver dog to search an area he was last seen in. There was an article about the dog in the local newspaper. The handler explained how he worked on land and water. He stated the last body they found was under 40 ft. of water. I knew about ground searching but was not aware they could detect in water.

I found that fascinating. Anyone know much about this? Is there a time period. I know usually after a couple of days the body rises to release gases, then goes back down. How does he indicate? What are the limitations or issues?


----------



## cafrhe (Nov 4, 2002)

Hopefully NancyJ see's this. She works an HRD dog and trains on water. I do live scent, but 2 of my teammates do HRD and at least one is certified for water work. They will work from a boat and the dog has a bark alert. That is the extent of my knowledge LOL.


----------



## dog27 (Apr 8, 2007)

I have been to some water trainings and have read about the subject, but have not trained my dog for that yet.

When a body decomposes underwater, it releases oils, gases, etc. that can be detected by a dog as scent on the surface. There are a lot of variables that affect the decomposition process, so it is difficult to quantify the limitations, but I believe some bodies have been located by dogs years after they went missing, and some in quite deep water.

Usually the dog and handler work from a boat. They travel a grid pattern in the area and if the dog gets into a cadaver scent plume it will display its natural alert behavior such as pawing at the water, whining, or some other action that the handler has learned to read. The handler interprets this behavior and guides the boat into the direction of stronger scent. When the scent is at its strongest, the dog performs its trained alert behavior, which might be barking or lying down to tell the handler that is where the source of the scent is coming from.

When a dog has alerted on a location, often a second dog will be brought in to work the area independently in order to confirm it. If so, then divers are advised where to look. With no water current or wind, the body could be directly below, but the handler normally has to interpret the conditions to predict where the body might be based on where the scent is the strongest at the surface. There is a lot more to it than this, but hopefully this gives you an idea of what is involved. The Cadaver Dog Handbook has a chapter devoted to water searches.


----------



## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks. I thought it was interesting. 

I wonder if they will use this ability there is a theory he may have gone into the water (his glasses were found by the shore) Several dives of the area have turned up nothing, however, the water is very shallow on both sides of a deep channel. The channel has a strong current. The body (if there is one) may very well be being washed in and out. 

I wish I had gone out to meet the handler.


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

They can either work the dog from a boat or from the shore. If the man was in the water and has bounced along the shallower part of the area the dog may pick it up. If the water is swift moving in the center and the subject travelled there, then the dog may pick it up down stream a very long way and it can be difficult to work. If the handler is experienced in working water missions, they will be able to let you know how the area should be worked.


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Is the area tidal? If it is then it also will affect the way the area should be worked.


----------



## Elaine (Sep 10, 2006)

I used to do drownings with my old dog who is gone now. The only real difference between detecting human remains on land vs water is there are thermoclines in most deeper bodies of water that act like a pane of glass blocking the scent. Otherwise, water is just thick air. Depending on how wide the body of water is and the wind direction, you can work it either from shore or from a boat.

I'm surprised that dog was able to have a find in 40 ft of water due to the thermoclines. There must have been quite a current or they were dragging the bottom to break it up or the body was very near the edge.


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

I saw this on tv some time. They drive the dog around a lake in a boat, but I forgot the details. Dogs have amazing noses, don't they. I swear my dogs can smell the hotdogs from the back of the yard with the patio doors closes.


----------



## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

That is interesting about the thermocline. I am a diver, although a very new one, and have experienced them but I can't remember how far down they usually are. I thought about 30 ft. 

I still find it hard to wrap my head around it being the same as land. Of course I have little experience in tracking on land. I do realize that SAR tracking is different that the way a Police dog would track. If I remember correctly, SAR is more air scenting. I would just imagine the water would be so much more difficult to track because of current on surface can be different below, plus the wind above the water. It would also be so much more demand on the handler to interpret where to go as the dog just can't go in the direction he wants himself. I would love to have the opportunity to take part in a seach.


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Tracking or trailing and HRD (Cadaver searches) are so different you can't even relate them to each other. Most police k9's come from a sch. background and training where the learn to track (go step to step). Most SAR dogs trail, they do not track. Trailing is following the trail of scent coming off the subject. They may not necc. follow exactly where the foot falls are (which a tracking dog will do) if the wind blows the scent 5 or 10 feet off where the subject walked then the dogs work with that. Air scent work is completely different again, but often you will find that a good air scent dog will often follow a trail if they come across it. You cannot trail on water, we have done air scent problems from boats where we work the shore line untill the dog gets scent of someone on land, then put the boat into shore and work the problem from there. Have been very successful with this type of exercise. Mostly we do HRD from boats. There are some great books that explain how it works. Basically as the body is in the water cells ect are constantly coming off and cone out from the body as they rise to the surface. As air passes over the surface of the water it picks up the scent and if you are working the dog over that area the dog can pick up the smell. Sometimes the dog will drop its nose and get the scent from the water itself and sometimes that is not necc. It is fantastic how the dogs work and how they use their nose. I never get bored or tired of watching any of the dogs work out a problem in training or work on a search.


----------



## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

I knew they were different, but not sure how. I know it is a silly question but trailing, would that be when they are given the scent of a person they are looking for and follow it? What would air scenting be used for?

I have done track work and understand how that works, but am curious at other types.

I agree with you on the dogs work. I would love to have an opportunity to watch this. I see you have a HRD, SAR and trailing dog. 

I know another poster mentioned a book, do you have any other suggestions, I would like to read more about it.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Just got back from training
We were going to do water training tomorrow but figured the roads were too icy and it was going to be below 20............

Basically, they way we do water is the dog "steers the boat" We train the dog to work on the front of the boat and work the scent cone during training enough *by moving in and out of it that the dog learns to move its body in the direction of the scent. When we get over source the dog flips around and starts to work back.

The thing that makes water from a boat a little more complex than land cadaver is the dog is constrained by the boat as they cannot pinpoint source - the driving the boat method really helps. We are not requiring a trained alert but rely on body language and the hook back to walk the gunnels.

Some people let the dog jump in and circle the scent - they will do that but there can be dangers in letting the dog do this.

For thermoclines - we have a temperature device you can drop to the bottom and it will take the temperature every 5 feet. When water temps are below 40F there is not much decomp. In really deep cold water the body may not float due to pressure.

If you have a thermocline you have to break it up. If it is not too deep a speed boat can do it. If it is deeper you can drag an anchor through it etc.

It is very interesting because even lakes can have currents underneath so what is going on underneath will influence where the scent comes out. If you really want to see it - take some smoke bombs out and throw them in a lake!!!!! (They work underwater)


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

> Originally Posted By: novarobinI knew they were different, but not sure how. I know it is a silly question but trailing, would that be when they are given the scent of a person they are looking for and follow it? What would air scenting be used for?


Well it is not really all that different to the dog - the problem with only trailing is that after a certain amount of time the trail starts to fade but, if the person is still alive, they are constantly sheeding scent which can be airborne. Early in a search ops you want those trailing dogs out there but as the search gets older (a few days) you want the air scent dogs scannig for scent. The reality is dogs follow scent to its source - trailing dogs air scent and air scent dog trail.

There is a current of air moving from our feet up and over our head. Groups of skin cells called rafts that fall off our body is carried in the current**. Imagine a fountain of scent coming off of our head - some falls to the ground. Some is picked up and carried on air currents, often for great distances. We have had some problems where the dog picked up airborne scent over 1/2 mile away.

When a dog is trailing they are picking up scent mostly from the ground in the general area where the person walked - sometimes not exactly where they walked, as described in a previous post. There is also scent associated with the footfall path (butyric acid from feet, crushed vegetation etc.) but the trailing dog follows the specific scent from that person - alhtough they may use other information in the track but we really have not been able to crawl into a dog's brain to figure out all that is going on.

Airscent dogs can be trained two ways - to find any human scent or to find the scent of a specific person. Those that are scent discriminating use a scent article and are usually started in trailing until they get down the concept that they need to find the person associated with the scent article. An airscent dog is gridded+++ in an area to pick up airborne scent, and they work from areas of lower to higher concentration.

Hope that is interesting. Some good books I like are are Syrotouk, "Scent and the Scenting Dog" which is an old classic, the ARDA book -"Serach and Rescue Dogs, Training Methods" (but they STILL don't acknowledge scent discrimination in the air scent dog ), and the "Cadaver Dog Handbook"

**Did you know that about 80% of the dust in a normal home is dead skin cells?

+++It is not quite as simple as the books make it look unless you live in the flatlands with no trees and a steady wind







- In our area the wind typically changes direction frequently and the mountains in the western part of the state do all kinds of neat things. But the basic concept is you work areas where scent is likely to go - depending on the time of day and weather and terrain - then if nothing is found you do a more detailed grid search .


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Ok one last thing I wanted to clarify in the water post was where I said they cannot pinpoint source.

By that I mean on land the dog can move its own body and nose to get as close to the scent source as doggedly possible.

In a boat they depend on us and letting them "steer the boat" helps us get right over it. But the boat is still moving, even if you kill the motor, so if the dog does a trained indication they may be past where the scent is coming out of the water before they finish. That is ok if you train a lot as you can figure it out but it is real definitive to see the dog snap its head and go to the back of the boat after you go over the scent.

Of course ponds and small lakes are one thing. Rivers and open water a whole 'nother thing altogether!!!!!!!!!!!! We recently did a water search on a sort of navigable river (if you count jumping out and pushing the boat in spots) and it was a lot harder to pinpoint because you really could not work a good patter.


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Some really good educational resources are "Scent and the scenting dog", "Ready" and "Training the k9 Hero, search and rescue dogs." Air scent dogs work off leash, they are either discriminating or non-discriminating. Discriminating air scent (also called area search dogs) are presented a scent article the same way a trailing dog is. They work off leash with the handler, usually working ahead of the handler and any flankers (searchers who go with the k9 and handler). The handler walks a zig zag grid covering the area (as terrain allows). If the dog finds scent of the subject they will usually leave the handler and can range a long way using their nose to close in on the subject. Once they pin point the subjects location they return to the handler and alert the handler that they have made the find. Lexi has a jump alert and will jump up on me to let me know. Then the dog leads the handler and flankers back to the subject. A non discriminating area search dog looks for human scent in the area and will alert the handler to any human they find. There are many variances on how this is trained and some handlers train the dog not to leave the subject but stay and bark to let the handler know the find has been made. I have never trained this method as I think (especially since I run gsd's) this would be very intimidating to the subject.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

The bark and hold is mainly used by disaster teams because of the danger of having a dog running on rubble back to the handler for a recall-refind. but a lot of other people have adopted it.

Down here, in our mountains, sound can be one place and sound like it is someplace else or with some of the hunters who may shoot a dog that comes up to them and starts barking at them. Not to mention a victim who may run.


----------



## novarobin (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow, thanks. 

As for the bark and hold, I have been on the receiving end so I can see how you would not want to use it in a search scenerio (I sometimes volunteer with the Police K9, they are trained to bark and hold when the subject stops. They apprehend only if you continue to run).

I also was aware there were currents under the water even in lakes (from my experience as a diver) so I was wondering how much that would affect the scent. Plus sometimes you get a different movement of water on top, then the wind. At least it would narrow an area down for divers to seach. 

Thanks for all the info. I will be checking out the books. I have always been facsinated with K9 abilities to track but this has peaked it even more. I suppose it partly because I am part of the Underwater Recovery Team (I am one of the divers that would come out to get the body the dog found). Right now, we are the ones searching for cadavers in water.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

A general rule of thumb used on the ability to pinpoint is the radius of the area is the depth of the water - of course all the things you mentioned impact scent transport greatly and that rule is under *ideal* (HAH) conditions. You also need divers out of the water when working with dogs as the dogs will find the divers too****

***water searches are often within hours of death - and in cold water there may not be much decomp odor.

In 40 feet of water the body *should* be found within a circle of radius 40 feet from the alert(s)

We have found that is a pretty good estimate based on the few real finds we have had and training scenarios

You recovery divers amaze me !! --- . The thought of blindly working around the bottom of a lake feeling with your hands and bumping into a body ----- gives me shivers. I am somewhat familair with your techniques using either the ropes and either spiral or zig zag grid. 

If you have a team to work with I would aks to come to one of their trainings and watch. A lot of dog teams use divers as part of the dog training and would welcome volunteers, but most of the training is done with scent generators (air pump, tubing, blows bubbles into water that are moderated to a low visibility - dog gets "proofed" off of bubbles not associated with scent) ----

You can PM me if you don't know of any and I can ask some of my contacts who is good in your area. 

None of the books are really great on water cadaver. The cadaver dog handbook seems to have the most useful book information. I think the is the best I have seen ....go to the articles page

http://midatlanticdogs.org/


http://www.absarokasearchdogs.org/training/fielding_a_water_search_dog.php

They USED to have a lot of good articles on this but, oh well,


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

A lot of dog teams use divers as part of the dog training and would welcome volunteers, but most of the training is done with scent generators (air pump, tubing, blows bubbles into water that are moderated to a low visibility - dog gets "proofed" off of bubbles not associated with scent) ----
*************************************************

I wanted to bring up something with regard to these "scent machines" I do not care for them. One must train the dog on an appreciable amount of HR. Scent machines cause the same problems as tiny amounts. This creates a dog whose threshold is too low to find a full set of remains. The dog will fringe and if the handler does not understand what is happening, divers will be put down a long way from point of origin,just like they do on land. 

Also,my dogs are trained to alert at source. Period. I train this method in my seminars. My dogs work the entire boat. This makes it much easier for the operator to keep the boat "in odor". When the boat is over source, my dog alerts. My dog literally paws the water above the HR. I may or may not then cruise over it with side scan sonar and drop a camera, before putting a diver down. 

I do not use divers either. It is not necessary to use a diver to train a water cadaver dog and it is just one more thing to proof the dog off of.









Also,the hold and bark for police work barely resembles the sport version. The dog must be moved farther away from the decoy and the dog must be proofed for movement. Crooks do NOT stay still when a dog is barking at them. Sport dogs are trained to engage if the decoy moves. Get you sued in the real world


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Renee, I fully understand what you say about fringing and working large source and realize it as a training problem to overcome when training with small scent sources. When we train with small sources we do not accept an alert in the fringe (and I have seen fringe alerts on relatively small stuff) but..............

We have not had real-life diffiucties with locating actual bodies during real searches using this method. Same thing with the hook right after we cross the source. If it works, what is wrong with it? What is wrong with reading and working with the natural behavior offered by the dog if it is consistent and you can articulate what it is? A lot of people use that technique. We do require a trained alert for land cadaver.

Also, some of that stuff in a scent machine can be so much scent that we can smell it on the surface..........I cannot smell a body underwater; usually those calls are pretty recent after the drowning........

We work full bodies with each cadaver dog every chance we get but, as you know, this is not the most common training experience. We always make the dog work to source. Short of that when we have the chance to, we like to combine our resources in one location on a large peice of land and work that way. 

My own experience with my dog who had been trained on materials we can actually get, and a full body who was so badly decomposed in July that WE could smell it from about 300 feet was that I had to throw the ball to divert him before he launched on top of the body. No problem with going straight in. (Though I know some dog do hesitate when they get close but typically it has been within visual range)

We were talking about the hold and bark for wilderness dogs and intimidation factor - but I mentioned that it makes sense for disaster and if your dog does disaster and wilderness- those are the teams who normally seem to do that. I just prefer the recall-refind since I have a hard time locating a sound source in the mountains and it is far less intimidating.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

We have not had real-life diffiucties with locating actual bodies during real searches using this method. Same thing with the hook right after we cross the source. If it works, what is wrong with it? What is wrong
*********************************

Where were the alerts in relation to the actual location of the body?
If it is working,great, but I have seen the opposite in my seminars when I put realistic amounts out with a large percentage of dogs. Just because it works for you,does not mean that there are not easier ways to accomplish the same end.









Fringe alerts should occur with large scent sources,not small ones. If a dog is fringing with a small scent source,it is a training issue,not a threshold issue. 
The scent machine is dispersing scent,but it is a lot different than putting source under water and having the dog alert at point of origin. 
As far as the alerts go,training a dog to alert at source in water is no different than training the final response in our narc and bomb dogs. If the dog has the drive for the reward,the dog will work the odor and alert at source. Just happens to be on the water. If the dog is trained to a diffinitive final response,it makes it much easier. I want the dog to work,not me.

I was bringing up points for those who are unfamiliar with the pittfalls of some types of training. When one has divers standing by,one wants the dog alerting at source or as absolutely close as the environment permits. I want it as easy on the diver as possible which is why I also use imaging sonar and/or a camera before they deploy. I have had experience diving in black water and it is no picnic which is why I try to get them to target

The bark and hold referrence was in response to another poster and the bark and hold in police dogs.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I think the most recent was about 20 feet off /body in 15 feet.

The others, I don't know I was not on those searches -(there have been 4) but our team was credited with making the finds. 

None of these are my finds ....... I have worked two actual searches with Cyra / one for a *possible* body - cold case / no other clues than vehicle left at lake over a year ago. The 2nd one was a river search and 3 dogs, not knowing where the previous dog had alerted, all alerted in the same channel with succissive alerts downstream from each other. There were issues with current in channel and body rose the next day - same channel but snagged downstream in brush.

When training with a scent pump with hose on the bottom we are usually getting within a few feet (we turn it down so we can't see bubbles before we go out)

I know the thing of fringe alerts is it is most likely to happen when the dog hits odor of the same strength they are used to alerting on. I agree about it being a training issue with the small source so maybe that was not a good example - but I still thought it was a fringe alert because her dog alerted where my dog did a head snap earlier - I was blown away the handler rewarded the dog and did not make htem work into it. 

I guess I am saying that when we got to our first real body, ALL of the dogs DID alert within 5-15 feet of it (and Grim was stopped before landing on top of it) and would have, I am sure, worked closer to source had they been encouraged ----we DO try to work full source when we can but don't have the same access as LE might have on a routine basis. All dogs only had training on small sources but they still went in and the odor was very very strong to us from 300 feet. Had they fringed, I think they would have alerted before we humans were overwhelemed by the scent.

I do think that snap back with the dog following source as the boat passes over it does give a definitive point to mark. The dog cannot know he is at the strongest scent until just after he passes over it - then the alert must be given just as he loses scent if he is to give a trained alert, no? The boat is moving - the dog can't put on the brakes like he can stop his body on land. The point at which he snaps his head and moves it backwards is a pretty clear mark.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

The 2nd one was a river search and 3 dogs, not knowing where the previous dog had alerted, all alerted in the same channel with succissive alerts downstream from each other. There were issues with current in channel and body rose the next day - same channel but snagged downstream in brush.
***************************
Dogs could have been fringing. See the problem starts when the dog is not trained to work that odor UP to point of origin. There are some nasty variables in water and I was not there,but I see dogs do this. Alert downstream in minimal odor. 

*************************************************
but I still thought it was a fringe alert because her dog alerted where my dog did a head snap earlier - I was blown away the handler rewarded the dog and did not make htem work into it. 


************************************
Yep. Handler teaching the dog to fringe. Rewarding the second the dog shows a change of behavior and not requiring the dog to work to source creates a dog that will alert the second he is in odor. Could be a long way from source and makes it real hard to find the HR. Training issue.
**********************************************, I think they would have alerted before we humans were overwhelemed by the scent.

******************************************
They would have. If they worked it to source and did not alert until they were almost on it, that is what we want. Now that odor is in their "database". 

***************************************************

I do think that snap back with the dog following source as the boat passes over it does give a definitive point to mark. The dog cannot know he is at the strongest scent until just after he passes over it - then the alert must be given just as he loses scent if he is to give a trained alert, no? The boat is moving - the dog can't put on the brakes like he can stop his body on land. The point at which he snaps his head and moves it backwards is a pretty clear mark. 
**********************************************
You are right about working the odor,the change in behavior,the head shot etc. But,I do not want my dog riveted to the bow of the boat. When he is moving out of odor,he literally runs down the side following it. Boat works based on the dog. When the boat gets over source,he drops and scratches the water. 
One can also GPS the changes of behavior and figure out source. Much easier to let the dog tell me.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Renee, the dog is not rivited to the bow - but they typically scan for scent from it and we don't like them just running all over the boat willy nilly. Once they hit scent they can go anwhere they please. They run down the gunnels following odor when they run out of scent after the head snap. 

Yes, you have not seen out dogs work. We are working to point of origin. Maybe I am not articulating it well enough - ok you know the technique - same one used by Jonni Joyce and Lisa Higgens and Dee Wild as opposed to Barbara Weakly Jones . I think it is better than just tooling along in a boat and when the dog plops down call source. I have seen that done. You have to read the body language to move the boat to get the dog over source since they cannot move the boat on their own.

I do not think the dog alerts on the river were failures of the dog to locate source. The alerts on the moving water were separated by several hours each and made sense if the body was moving in the current (I imagine it could have since it floated the night after the search). 

The final position of the body corroborated what the dogs did. Dog 1 was furtherest upstream - several hours later dog 2, cyra, was further downstream, several more hours later dog 3 was further downstream. The next morning the body had floated and was even furuther downstream. All alerts were on the same side of the river along the channel. 

You are saying maybe the body was not moving. maybe scent was spreading out and dogs were alerting on the fringe. But I don't think so. The nature of the water was we had to go into the water upstream of where we alerted and there was no body language until we hit odor and the dog went ballistic and started working from the downstream side of the boat to the upstream side as we were drifting downstram. [you could not put even a trolling motor in the water because of rocks and we were relying on oars]


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

and we don't like them just running all over the boat willy nilly. Once they hit scent they can go anwhere they ple
**************************

My dogs do not run willy nilly. My dogs work odor and come to a final response. You are saying the same thing that I am . My dogs get into odor,work it in relation to the postioning of the boat until the operator is able to get the boat over source.

I know Dee and Lisa. They have been to my seminars and I have certified their dogs.

My dogs dog not "tool" around. They work odor to source and alert. I teach my method in my seminars and almost all of the dogs pass NNDDA certification at the end. 
Last one was a booger. 40degrees, north wind kicking. Almost all of the dog passed cert.







When I set up a scenario,I put out realistic amounts to ensure that the dogs are operational
I must be doing something right....


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I was just trying to explain the dogs are not rivited to the bow as you seemed to think they were. 

You know how Lisa works a dog...we were recently blessed to have her with 3 handlers from our team and 2 from another for three days for some touch up work..what we were doing was pretty much how she does it. I also met Joe last year and liked him a lot. 

I have seen the people whose dogs just lay down or sit when the hit scent and they "call it" but that is not the same as working to source.

40 would be tough. Was the water warm? We have one place we have trained in the cold of winter because it was the cooling lake for a coal plant and the air temp could be in the 20s but the water would be 70









We have had the disucssion about the dog coming to final trained response and have had difficulties with it but perhaps that is because of how we saw it used. Dog alerts just after it leaves source so the alert is after the fact. I would rather have the dog follow source along the side of the boat than sitting on the front as we are leaving the scent. Maybe how we saw it done and tried to do it was what discouraged us.

We also saw folks just do a pattern and let dog alert when it hit scent without working to source. They did not do anything to work into it.

I know Lisa was just fine with what we were doing and we were just building on the dogs' natural behaviors and relying on that turn; we got all messed up when we trained with Barbara who demanded us to use our land cadaver alert.

Ok so got a water question for you. What do you do with a dog who barks on the boat UNTIL he hits scent? We don't want that because he will actually bark enough to foam at the mouth and get overheated plus who wants to have the dog barking constantly. Lisa suggested, and it seemed to work, giving him a toy. Sure enough when he hit scent he dropped the toy, ignored it, and worked to source. Where he got a resounding game of tug. Another option is to correct him for it. Another is to just take him for a few boat rides and let him bark himself out then come back. I am at a loss there. He is very excited to be on the boat and very much animated and working the scent well when he hits it.............


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

What do you do with a dog who barks on the boat UNTIL he hits scent? We don't want that because he will actually bark enough to foam at the mouth and get overheated plus who wants to have the dog barking constantly. Lisa suggested, and it seemed 
**************************************8
What breed of dog? Well, I would put up with that about 3 seconds......... As far as sticking a toy in his mouth,I do not bribe them and that is also rewarding him for unwanted behavior. Understand though that I make no excuses for the dogs. They are either a useful tool or they wash. I have seen dogs exhibit that behavior and they will blow themselves out and be useless on a long search. Does he only do this on the boat?

As far as the alerts go, if the dog is properly trained,I can tell that the dog is about to alert anyway by the way he has been working the odor. The minute my dog gets over source,he alerts. The fact that the boat drifts is not a problem because he will again follow the odor. He exhibits the trained response at source or as close as he can get.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

GSD - He does not do anything like this on land cadaver. We get him out, let him work his zoomies for a minute or two, put him to work and he works a good steady pace, nice pattern, alerts nicely, holds his alert well. 

He has only been on a boat a few times. He is comfortable in water and seems so on the boat. No, I am not going to put up with this and I am concerned he could not scan for scent as effectively with a toy in his mouth and certainly not barking. I am hesitant to have him associate a correction with the boat but not sure how best to stop it.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

You are correct. If the dog's mouth is open barking or holding a ball,his scenting ability is diminished.
Well, if he has high drive for the ball,I would try to use that as a reward for shutting up. My dogs have a quiet command. 
Once the dog understands the command and what it means, THEN you can give him a correction in the boat and he will fully understand what it was for. If he is drivey,he may just be getting excited anticipating a find and subsequent reward. 
One of my bomb dogs is a Dutchie. Barking during a search when I first got her. I extinguished it by using that method. She is quiet now during a search. She learned that barking got her nothing.


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Ok Neko is not water cadaver cert. She is cert by NASAR and NNDDA in cadaver but there are not to many water cadaver evaluators or trainers right where we live and work. Lisa Higgins and Dee are pretty close but are really busy and I though I have run in to them many times at searches I have not had the opportunity to train with them in a long time. I want to take her to a water seminar and fine tune her. We have trained quite a bit and she works well. I use a combination of her body language change and an alert at the source, if able to pin it. We do not have a air scent pump and try to use a large amount of source when we train. Reading what you two were saying it has reassured me that I have been doing the right thing with her. When she starts to get scent her whole body language will change and she will work the boat repositioning herself to get the best advantage of wind and often lowering her head to water and then up often repeating this several times. The only time she alerts(she has a bark and scratch) is when we have been in close proximity to the source location. We have never trained in really cold water, nothing like this last search, the water has always been above 60 degrees so I am not sure if this would make a difference with her. I was pleased to find out that when we worked early in the search and under the bridge Neko had a lot of interest in a certain point, she really worked the boat like crazy trying to figure it out but never pinning anything down and never giving an alert. When we left the area after I told the boat captain that she had pinpointed interest in the area and they should bring in another dog for conformation he informed me that she was the conformation dog and that 2 other dogs had also pinpointed the exact area. Divers were put in but nothing was found. I am not 100% sure if the source had banged off the pilons or what but I feel pretty confident that it had. 
Also while doing shore work from the boat again Neko showed interest in a specific area never alerting but lots of head checks, nose to water and air and boat movement. We confirmed that this was the area of previous days recovery. How long do you guys usually work your dog on a boat before you break them? With land cadaver I give her a positive short search if we get several negative areas can you do that on the water? or is it ok to do a positive on land and then get back to the boat work?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

He is crazy for the ball and for the tug. I am using the ball right now for land cadaver award since it is easier to stop and move to the next problem and tug for water cadaver because I can keep him in the boat that way -

I am currently building his quite time when he wants the ball because he did a bark and hold on one of my flankers during a search. So I was doing it to fix that problem. He knows quiet relative to nuisance barking but is a bit pushy when he wants a toy. Well I have until Feb 3rd to do this (our next water training) --- get him to keep quiet in high drive situations.

It was during a break and I was not paying any attention to him as we were planning the rest of the segment and it was one of those clear plastic bottles he was drinking out of. It really scared the poor guy.......................... 

Thanks


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

I am a certifying official for NNDDA. Did you certify in Fla? Perhaps they could not set up water at the time. I will be holding a seminar/certification within the next couple of months. Long way I know.
Depends on the conditions,temp etc with regard to breaks. On land,I do leave the area and set up a positive on long searches. Cannot contaminate the water so that must wait on water searches


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

He knows quiet relative to nuisance barking but is a bit pushy when he wants 


If he knows that,use it in the boat and get on him. It will just keep getting worse. Been there.......


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Renee, please pm me with details or web site where details are posted when you get seminar set up. I have vacation time and don't mind travelling to get a good seminar in, lately every seminar I have tried to get to has been full before I can register. I don't know if Neko even comes close to your dogs expectations but I would love to get some more knowledge especially when it comes to water. Yes we did our certification in Fl. but no water evaluator available and we were far from ready at the time even if an evaluator was available. Neko is my first HRD dog and I have made mistakes and learned much, talking to handlers like you and Nancy and reading or listening to what you guys have to say really helps. I am lucky enough to have a few handlers around who are really educated in HRD but few have extensive water experience.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Just for the record. I am pretty new at HRD stuff myself and hope I have not given any impression otherwise !!!! I have been involved in SAR since 1999-2001 and 2003-present, but HRD only working on it since late 2005.

I am also interested - last year I lost my PTO and a lot of training time with parents' illnesses. It is still rough but at least I have time off again. Right now our current goal for external certificaiton is the NAPWDA test but it is water, budilings, vehicles, and land .......... (Sharon, we should have a get together!)


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Nancy, you and I have been doing SAR for almost the same length of time. I got into it in 2002. I started with Lexi early in 2003 she was an adoption and started her on area search. I got Neko in 2004. Certified both of them with NASAR in 2005 (on the same day, great day) and Certified Neko with NNDDA for the first time one year later. Now I also am working with my husbands dog Justice and learning trailing.....not my favorite thing but we are working with it as Justice is a great dog but works better for me than DH and hubby is concentrating more on his bloodhound. We will definately have to see about getting together sometime. My parents just moved down here from S.C. ( I think I have already told you that but I am still tired) so I am fairly knowledgable of the Charleston and surrounding areas but don't know much about the Northern part of the state. 
You are biting off a lot with the NAPWDA test, but I am sure you will be ready. I have done building searches and am learning vehicles which is much more difficult than you would think. Luckily my Commander is a retired law enforcement k9 handler so he is very helpful with teaching the techniques. Air patterns in buildings can be tricky with something as little as an open window changing the whole air flow.
Unfortunately HRD searches are more and more in demand these days and often it is my most common call out. Already have plans for 2 searches in Feb. for cold cases. It never ceases to amaze me how many sick people there are in the world and how many places they will find to dispose of a body.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I am really hoping to tighten things up this year. I lost a lot of ground last year with my father's lung cancer and mother's stroke. Fortunatly the dogs seemed to have picked up where we left off.

HRD calls are our most frequent call out as well and we hope to use the relationships we build doing it to open the door for wilderness / light urban search Our team dogs had two live finds this year and every year the number of calls slowly increases. 

I know what you mean about sick people ........... we have heard some pretty disgusting stories. I just hope it brings closure to some family and helps keep someone off the streets. 

After working a search in a swamp near Aiken, you can have the lowcountry and Florida.







Don't like those gators and the more snakes that you have. ....


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Don't know if you guys saw it on the news but at this last search had a lady fall out of a boat (brr) and then step on 6 ft gator! Thank goodness they weren't active. Snakes have not been much of a problem for us so far. Wild hogs are much more of a threat in the rural places. Saw a black bear out in Alabama eating a wild hog. Thank goodness that probably filled its tummy for a while. And the largest racoon I have EVER seen down at the waters edge. That thing was HUGE! 
I knew about your parents being ill, I hope they are doing better. Its amazing how the dogs don't lose ground despite us sometimes having things interupt our training. I have a friend who just lost her mother to cancer, while she was sick my friend was not able to get out and train but once. The day she trained her boy (Neko's brother by the way) stepped it up and worked better than he has ever done. I think its just amazing how they do that.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

You are biting off a lot with the NAPWDA test, but I am sure you will be ready. I have done building searches and am 
*******************************************

If you look at NNDDA full cert,ours is tougher unless they have changed it. We have the basic,then other options








You would be surprised what happens when you attend a seminar and the dog gets a chance to work many scenarios. The lightbulb goes on. I had a couple of dogs last time that had never been in a boat,much less trained on water. I saw their potential and pushed the handlers into trying. The dogs shocked their handlers and excelled. Got on a plane,went home and made recoveries.









I will post my seminar here. I am trying to schedule it around the weather. Last seminar we froze our um, selves. I do not want to wait until the hot weather. One seminar cancelled because of hurricane Rita.......Miserable climate here.....


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

They look pretty similar --- main difference is there is a NAPWDA cadaver certifying official / Master trainer in Charleston and we can arrange a local test. While NAPWDA standards are set fairly open, I know she is pretty demanding so I am sure the test will be plenty tough.

I see there is NNDDA in Titusville - can you set up a test with NNDDA like that or does it have to be an event?

I'll be honest - I work for a nonprofit - and have a kid in college, heading off to graduate school next year, so flying across country is kind of tough for me $$$. We have set our internal standards to meet the others, as well as NIMs typing criteria, and try to have external evaluators come in but I still want external certs.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

Well,actually they are not real similar. We have a basic cert plus options. Large amounts as in realistic amounts,bone in realistc amounts.etc I wrote the standards and tried to make them as realistic as is possible without being unfair. I am rather proud of our little org. We are now the largest with 5000 members. 
There is a certifying official around Tampa that I can put you in touch with. Would you have several dogs?


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I'll pretty much have to talk with the two other handlers on my team and see if there is interest. I will talk with them on my training Feb 3rd and PM you.


----------



## k9sarneko (Jan 31, 2007)

Hey Nancy, I don't know if you would be doing the cert in Tampa or seeing if the evaluator can come to S.C. but if you consider traveling to Tampa I can probably get several handlers around here who would travel to cert too if that would help. Also I am past due for my recert myself so would be interested. It has been hard to get an evaluator to come here, I think Brad Dennis is trying to get something together in Feb but I don't know what it is going to end up being or if it will get off the ground as he is a busy man.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

If folks will pay the certifying official's expenses, he is willing to travel


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I will check. Feb is bad because most of the team is going to an air scent seminar ..........


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Renee, can you quantify "realistic amounts" 

lbs, grams etc.

Of course we have been training for all kinds of variations.


----------



## ladylaw203 (May 18, 2001)

The options on our certification can be attempted after the basic certification is passed. Failure of the options will not nullify the basic. That being said. The options are the building search,vehicle search. Bone scatter is a full set of skeletal remains in a realistic scatter pattern. The dog must work through animal bone and alert on the HR. Above ground and buried realistic amounts refer to enough pounds to equal a human. 
Burial area of course will have distractor holes. An alert on animal remains constitutes a failure.


----------



## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

We made real progress this weekend on the barking. I had the boat driver take us where I knew we would be out of scent and gave him a hard correction. Did that about 3 times and he got the idea. 

When we hit scent he barked his head off but I am ok with him barking in scent and we got the head snap and the body languge before the bark. He took us to source [we made him work the bow by oversteering]

Cyra is no longer doing this; she is doing very well physically, but all my energy is going into Grim now. I knew when she was diagnosed with HD that her work time would be short ...... so he is getting all my energy - she is doing fine being a couch potato and ball chasing dog.

We learned something well though by accident on a woods problem and added it into our shoreline problems today. Yesterday he was in scent on a buried problem which was near animal bones. He normally totally ignores animal bones but he alerted on them while in scent from the human source. So we corrected and made him work to source. Had not thought of putting animal bones that close to a buried source before ---so I have a scenario to work on some more.


----------

