# V Sagus vom Busecker Schloß



## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

What is this dog known for? What does he bring to a pedigree. I was told by someone that I respect that he is not desirable in a pedigree but this person did not elaborate. So I am throwing it out there for discussion. If you have an opinion or knowledge (good or bad) I would love to learn from you. 

V Sagus vom Busecker Schloß - German Shepherd Dog

Thanks!
Rob


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Some bad traits: sharp, reactive aggression, allergies.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I used to do the helper work for a woman, (and later her BF handled him) with a Sagus son. Nasty, kind of snarly , handler aggressive, UGLY dog. 

However, he scored very well in SchH and was on the USA team a few times. Also did quite well at National events. Very nice obedience but I watched him chew up his handler on more than one occasion. Luckily, she was a doctor , so, she could just sit in her van and stitch herself up. lol. 
Helmut used the term "bloody" when he talked about training Sagus.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Anne, your description sounds exactly like a particular dog that we have in our club. I have not seen his pedigree so I do not know if he has much back masking on Sagus but would not be surprised if he did. 

My dog has Sagus twice in his pedigree but so far I am not reconciling what you guys are describing with what I have. However Sagus is pretty far back so there may be a lot of dilution on his influence.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

There was another litter from the same breeding as Sagus seen in working line pedigrees . Elke von den Hardter Höhe . She is found in the mother line of Yoschy von der Döllenwiese, his maternal grandmother. 


There are varying opinions about the sire of Sagus, Grief zum Lahntal. Some say he was a great producer and others disagree. I know the traits I associate with the dogs I have seen from that line because I worked the dogs as the helper. The people I knew/ still know, (who were producing outstanding dogs when he was found close in the lines), did not like seeing him in pedigrees. Once was more than enough for them and while nowadays, he is a ways back there, if you brought in a number of lines leading to him, I would expect to see some behaviors that I saw and personally do not care for.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> My dog has Sagus twice in his pedigree but so far I am not reconciling what you guys are describing with what I have. However Sagus is pretty far back so there may be a lot of dilution on his influence.




I have had dogs with him back a ways also who were very nice, very stable, very willing dogs and produced the same. It matters who else is in the pedigree. If you had Sagus close up, mixed in with lines with similar traits, well then yes. Or , like the dog I mentioned above, Sagus as the sire and, ( as I recall), the father line of the mother had Canto Weinerau in the third generation. Not the best combo if you ask me. It also matters , ( IMO anyway), where the dog appears in the pedigree.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

My only experience was a granddaughter that belonged to a friend. She was VERY soft and a bit nervy. I have been told that Sagus is better coming through his daughters than his sons. 

Anne and I will always disagree on Grief.  I had good luck with my dogs going back on Grief, but I might have been going through different dogs. I had a Grief granddaughter: Itara vom Lerchental - German Shepherd Dog I also had a female linebred 4,4-4 on Grief. Treue vom Heiliger Huegel - German Shepherd Dog


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Thanks and and Lisa! I love learning about this stuff!


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## BlackthornGSD (Feb 25, 2010)

My Ashen was 5-5 on Sagus. I was told he brings in drive and some sharpness/aggression.

Had *zero* handler aggression problems with Ash, tons of drive and trainability, general desire to please, high desire to work in most any capacity.

So, I wouldn't worry too much about this "light" level of linebreeding on Sagus--but I might not breed his daughters to, say, a dog with Crok close up.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

I also had a 5-5 on Sagus. Really sweet goofy dog at home. Quite sharp/nervy in bitework. A dog happy to bite fingers rather than the sleeve if the helper made the mistake of trying to cradle the jaw or stroke the head.
This dog came through Gento/ Gimmy Von Haus Larwin.
He was really attractive, deep blk/red blanket. Spinal issues and allergies. 
I had his mother at my house for a while.... She would completely shut town when a leash was snapped on. She also had several DDR lines.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> This dog came through Gento/ Gimmy Von Haus Larwin.
> He was really attractive, deep blk/red blanket. Spinal issues and allergies.
> I had his mother at my house for a while.... She would completely shut town when a leash was snapped on. She also had several DDR lines.


I had a Gento grandson. He would not shut down with the leash but if he was on one and I handed the end of it to anyone, he'd try to eat them. Very social and friendly with everyone, except in that situation. Quite an odd little quirk because it wasn't about them trying to make him do anything, just the exchange and it was ON. lol. 

I've worked a few dogs going back on Gento and there is some real fierce aggression when you tap into it. Saw the same with the male I just talked about. Mostly, he looked like he was working in play/prey but if the helper had the right stuff, he was kind of a monster.


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## lemans (Jun 18, 2005)

My male has Sagus behind him, as well as Crok. No issues at all, SUPERB dog, very plesed with him.


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## cliffson1 (Sep 2, 2006)

Hey Chrsitine, was looking at pic of you and Ash on the podium winning the USA National HOT trial. . Was just going through some old mags as I was just losing some weight...lol


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

One thing to consider when reading these kinds of threads is this. The training methods employed in SchH nowadays are vastly different than they used to be. In years past, the dogs were subjected to a great deal more adversity than they are now. That kind of training would expose weaknesses in the dogs much faster and much more clearly than what, ( for the most part), is going on today. 
Protection was actually about protection. The helper, ( who was known as the agitator ), was viewed differently by the dog as someone who could or would hurt them vs the more common "sparring partner" attitude seen so often today. Obedience would involve corrections and , again, it would become clearer faster which dogs would not tolerate it....either by shutting down or going after the handler...which for me, comes from the same place in the dog.


Having said that, you don't have to beat up a dog to get an idea of what is going on in there. There are behaviors that I can see and I don't need the dog to bite me to know what it is. I do think some people miss the more subtle behaviors of the dogs because they have only trained one way and don't recognize it. I am not saying every dog with Saugus has to be handler aggressive......I am saying that in some cases, the training hides signs that can be related to that behavior. With the Sagus son I talked about , there were behaviors he showed in protection, ( and would lose points as a result), where you could clearly see how well, or not, he processed adversity, a little discomfort and stress. He had a rather significant out problem in the beginning and his behavior before and after the out also showed it. I could feel the difference in that dog and some of the "better " dogs I worked, in the bite and I am not saying it was not a full and hard bite either. I could feel the difference in it depending on what was going on and in how and when he would fight with me. What was apparent in some of his behaviors in protection, I could see when he would go after the handler. Can't explain it better than that, because as usual, some of these things you have to see and feel to completely understand. 


While I can feel happy for the dogs because people are more "positive" in how they train, I also know that the training is not exposing who the dogs might "really" be and most of the people I come in contact with, don't notice the behaviors their dogs show when working in SchH. It is more about training the exercises correctly vs looking at the dog. On the other side of that is that some dogs look MUCH better , work better, hear the handler better etc., when there is more stress in the training or more pressure/presence from the helper. The work reaches in and touches who the dog "really" is. That is what SchH used to do on a more consistent basis. I often wonder what some of the really great dogs would look like if someone had tried to play with them in protection as well as wondering how well some of the top scoring dogs nowadays would do if they were hit with a reed stick. 
Yes, in many cases the training and the results were not as fancy but the good dogs were really something to behold and we do not see dogs like that very often at all now. IMO, it has to do with the training methods and what people consider to be good dogs, especially because obedience, employing toys and treats, is so common now. As I said in the other thread, some of the really good dogs, don't respond as well to those methods, so , people don't want them. They are subsequently removed from the gene pool and we are left with only one type of dog.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

Great post Anne! Thanks for your input!


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I have only been following but this has been a very informative thread. (And I don't even *have* a dog with Saugus


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

I keep spelling his name wrong which I believe lead Nancy to spell it wrong. It is Sagus, not Saugus. The area I live in is called Saugus, so, I keep adding that U to his name...lol.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

oooops


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Lol


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

So Yoschy von der Döllenwiese has the same breeding of Sagus through his maternal grandmother. Do people ever observe similar traits with Yoschy as with Sagus?


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

It is not new news what Anne says, but I am always struck with it.

I am mostly a "modern methods" trainer. I have noticed that dogs who do not fit into those methods, I judge as not great for training. Hey...where's the zip? the intense food and toy drive? What a cruddy performer, I think. But, if I do what I would rather not...just me and the dog and some energetic pressure then there is intensity in performance and a wagging tail. Son of a gun. But, I can see such animals not being appealing or looking like duds to many trainers now. 

I have had a dog who would come up the leash. You get better at reading subtlety if you don't enjoy being on the receiving end of that.

Are dogs utilized in breeding to bring in something that, in themselves, might not be a dog to pile up the genetics on? Is balance achieved by breeding balanced to balanced, or are "ingredients" used in the mix?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

My first working dog, Kyra v Frolich Haus (dam of my Cs, 2nd dam of I and K litters), solid solid nerves, super temperament, not the easiest dog to train....always had her own agenda, and had tons of natural ability in tracking and protection....her dam was sired by was sired by a dog linebred on Sagus....he was a working K9, won tons of NAPWDA competitions, hard as nails, and a consistent producer of "real" working dogs....

At the same time, I had heard when I first got in working dogs that Sagus could produce thin nerves and inappropriate aggression...apparently in Yago v d Polizie, the other genetics in the pedigree did a good job at balancing and suppressing these less desirable traits.

Lee


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> "apparently in Yago v d Polizie, the other genetics in the pedigree did a good job at balancing and suppressing these less desirable traits."


I guess if you knew the dog personally, you could say that but simply being successful at Police work or SchH doesn't mean that was the case. As I said about the Sagus son, he was very accomplished and went to the WUSV three times as well as placing high at several National events. I doubt everyone knew that dog was HA. Having said that, a distant linebreeding on one dog in no way means you will get the traits of that line, so, you may very well be correct. I don't think things always have to produce themselves as one thing such as handler aggression. You can see it in other things the dog does as well but again, doesn't mean the dog will bite you, maybe just a propensity toward getting a bit too worked up in certain situations is how I see it, or taking things more "personally" than other dogs do. That also goes back to what I said in my last post about the training methods. Many now use e-collars which is a less "personal" way of correcting the dog vs yanking on a leash. Not that e-collars were not used back then but they were no where near as sophisticated as the ones now, nor were people really smart about how to use them. 

I think if she had trained the Sagus son with a clicker, that HA might have been better hidden, although I do believe there is something about pain that set that dog off. That was clear in protection when the stick hits would come, meaning his reaction to it and also in how he responded to the out command and his behavior after the out. Keeping in mind that the out is mostly preceded by the stick hits and drive, as the helper, I could see and feel what he would do. The really good dogs will remain composed and I don't mean they just hang there and endure it. They will bring more power and fight but it is all very controlled and powerful without being the tiniest bit hectic Again, never without power but they have the ability to escalate and control themselves where other dogs kind of lose it for a few seconds....or longer.. Have to see their eyes and feel what they are doing to really appreciate it. I like a dog who fights when the drive comes but some dogs get a bit too frantic and fight a little too much. Or , they wait until the helper stops and then they start thrashing and grumbling and shifting the grip a bit. The dog I am talking about actually scored very high in SchH protection, a 98 at the WUSV but in training, things were more apparent as far as what kind of dog he was. He also failed protection at the WUSV because he would not out. He would lose points during what is now called the "transition phase" the time between when the helper would stop and the dog was commanded to out. He would be rather snarly before and right after the out and in how he would come off the sleeve. Nowadays, I see people trying to train this part of the routine by teaching the dog to pull in the front or to hang there until told to out. 

There are similarities with Yoschy IMO. More of the high drive that is common now with a good dose of aggression....maybe a bit more of the reactive variety. The problem now is, trying to find lines that will compensate. It is becoming a problem if you ask me, mostly because of what I said in my last post. People selecting a certain kind of dog for SchH over the more stoic dogs with better nerves. It is not about too much aggression or even drive in a pedigree if you ask me, it is about the lack of nerve strength. I am no longer confident people actually understand what the later is. They are breeding dogs who are friendly and because of that, they think the nerves are good. Many of the dogs don't possess much of a protective instinct, so, it is much more difficult to see the nerves clearly. Again, no adversity or threat, less ability to see who the dog really is. 

You have to see the difference in behavior to really appreciate it. I see more dogs who are "busier" when there is stimulation or something disturbing them vs the really great dogs I saw who had the ability to just stand or sit and observe before they decided what to do about it. It does make you take notice when you see a dog like that who just kind of exudes composure and confidence. They have an expression that just makes you stop and look at them vs the others who are bouncing off the walls, spinning etc. If they do feel the need to become aggressive, that too has a different look to it. Not so much behavior that says, "this is all a show, I am actually a little unsure here". 

I had a Yoschy grandson here who also had that issue with pain or discomfort. Everything else about the dog I really liked ......great obedience, would work super for a ball or toy but if you accidently stepped on his toe or corrected him with a pinch, he would bite you immediately. No warning. Not saying it was all Yoschy producing that, it's usually a combination but it didn't surprise me that he was in the pedigree close. People used to talk about dogs with Yoschy in there who had "environmental issues" like slick floors etc. Anyway, again, it matters who else is in the pedigree, the concentration of those other lines etc. 

As far as handler aggression, the handler can play a pretty big role in it. Some people really have a rather "negative energy" they show to their dogs and never seem able to turn it off. Or, as was the case with the handler of the Sagus son, she would make a big display of how annoyed she was, conveyed to the dog what was coming and he would get ready. I watched her walk all the way back from a failed SIM to correct the dog and I remember saying..."oh no...I wouldn't do that"....and then....CHOMP. lol. If people wonder why I laugh at this, it is not about the dogs, it is about how dumb people can be sometimes. It makes you wonder if they would turn on the garbage disposal and then try to pick something out of the drain. Again though, I think both dogs had issues with pain/discomfort, it was not as much about dominance IMO, it was about stopping the pain or preventing it. That kind of dog is more dangerous IMO. I don't mind a dog objecting to a correction who controls himself and is trying to communicate but the ones who just lash out with no restraint, no, ...don't think much of those dogs. 

Both dogs had a pedigree combo that I would not be comfortable with, the first one with Canto opposite Sagus and the other Yoschy and DDR lines with a few others that didn't seem like a good idea to me.


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## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Anne , excellent post. I look for those stoic dogs who emanate authority and am saddened that as time goes on there are fewer to be found. I reconcile it by acknowledging that a "breed" has an evolution, and that is directed by the breeders choices , which unfortunately for the large part are driven by the "consumer" , the market . Why not a market driven by those sick and tired of nervy GSD . Why not insist on a better dog . von Stephanitz more than once recognized problems , marching into the ring and exposing all the poor temperament causing dogs to flee out of the ring . 
Case in point, and if you are a member of the forum and this is your dog , the issue is not with you but with the dog and the direction things are going, Regional trials -- dog being very uncomfortable with being examined to the point where judge at end made a public remark that this dog was not happy in the ring, wished to be elsewhere . Why was the dog not given the opportunity to be elsewhere? Out you go. This was during conformation judging so not even exposed to threat (play threat) or pressure in work . The judge , a former k9 handler in Germany you would expect to have a more critical approach in animals he places. Which would he have chosen for himself were there a moment he needed protection ? 
I don't expect things to get better . If you have a really really solid dog then the sport crowd , used to high prey , doesn't see the value and decoys don't know how to work the dog .. and there you go. And so animals too easily disturbed, unable to cap the drive, animals easily driven to obsessive compulsions as a matter of release end up in homes , are not suitable for a satsifying relationship which everyone hopes for.

" I see more dogs who are "busier" when there is stimulation or something disturbing them vs the really great dogs I saw who had the ability to just stand or sit and observe before they decided what to do about it. It does make you take notice when you see a dog like that who just kind of exudes composure and confidence. They have an expression that just makes you stop and look at them vs the others who are bouncing off the walls, spinning etc. If they do feel the need to become aggressive, that too has a different look to it. Not so much behavior that says, "this is all a show, I am actually a little unsure here". 

and that is what I meant in the "question about this breeding" quote self ", without attempt at balancing with real solid , higher threshold dogs, that you could have dogs that are quick to react aggressive "hot" , very alert to environment - watching for the threat , possibly a little cautious (ready for reaction) , higher suspicion , high energy , a dog that has difficulty in settling. " Instead of sitting or lying calmly , yet alert , these dogs are twitching , turning around looking at everything that moves, eyes darting , and ears moving like a bats radar sensing ears . The focus is fractured. You see in tracking , dogs that are distracted , that will pause , look up , then continue , when there is a sound or movement.

Not to misunderstand one thing - this breed does and should have a natural sharpness , a readiness to confront , a natural suspicion , a stranger is a stranger , not all friends . 

A certain , formerly very active, breeder tended to focus on Sagus and Greif through males Otis and Natan , crossing to Crok. Then people who bought those dogs went on to breed and having studied those pedigrees I know that they were crossed to Yoschy and DDR lines, just as Anne was saying . Yes the dogs had issues , those being discussed.

Carmen
CARMSPACK.com


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