# Teaching out and leave it to an older puppy



## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

This is my 2nd post here. I have an 11 month old male GSD and he is my first dog I am raising along side my 3.5 year old son. Things have gone really smoothly and Charlie is everything we hoped for (with the exception of a few weeks of barking after I got foot surgery and he wasn’t out as much as he was used to. That has since resolved itself.) He walks nicely on the leash and off. He knows all his basic commands. He’s really a well behaved dog and will drop something he knows I don’t want him to have the minute I look at him so I don’t use a lot of commands for stuff like that. He knows mom will hunt him down and take whatever it is or stop whatever nonsense is happening, I have excellent follow through. We mostly practice his commands during play time. I throw the ball or the flirt pole and ask for the usual things before releasing whatever toy I have however I never focused on out or leave it mostly bc I haven’t needed to (first time dog mom) and now at almost 1 he’s a little more stubborn when we play and will make me fight him for the ball back. I usually just walk away and let him drop it on his own. He gets the hint that I won’t play until that happens I just don’t know how to turn all this into an “out” command or “leave it” when he’s going for the ball the same time I am. He waits at doors until I release him, same for the crate or the food bowl so he has decent impulse control. It’s not detrimental to our home life but it means when we’re out back or at the park I do a lot more ignoring then playing and that’s just not fun lol. So any tips on teaching an older pup out ?


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

Exactly like my Buffy! She seems to know if the item is a No No, she will drop it immediately after I said 'leave it'. However, if the item seems to be a 'no big deal', she would refuse the 'leave it' command!


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Play two ball with him.When he brings back the first ball he doesn't get the second ball until he drops the first one. Mark the instant he drops it with Out or Leave it and throw the second ball. Repeat.
You can practice indoors by holding a small treat or kibble and pulling it back if he goes for it.After a couple of tries he will pause beforehand.Mark that pause with the command and give a treat from your other hand with a release word OK!He should pick up this game pretty quickly. When you're confident he's "got it" you can drop a treat on the floor, give the command, give him a treat after scooping up the one on the floor.
There are other variations of this,but I've always had success with this method. Eventually substitute lavish praise for the food.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

My out is like drop it. The dog drops or releases what he has in his mouth. Two ball worked great for this as dogma said. When the out was added to tug. The tug is still (dead in movement) while you and dog are holding. Out. The second he released he was instantly released back on to the tug or given the tug. No conflict this way worked great for me.

My leave it is an emergency type command I don't use often but revisit training it regularly.
When I say leave it the dog is to turn towards me. I typically step backwards excitiedly or exaggerated large step almost like a leap when the dog is turning (slightly) towards me away from what i want him to leave. This movement from me gets the rest of his body moving to me.
I can share how I taught it if you need it.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

3ymum said:


> Exactly like my Buffy! She seems to know if the item is a No No, she will drop it immediately after I said 'leave it'. However, if the item seems to be a 'no big deal', she would refuse the 'leave it' command!


I wonder if your tone is different using the same words but naturally to you the item is less serious so you sound less serious. Make sense? My leave it is said in a more serious tone (kind of sharp) I don't use often.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@Apex1 I like the idea of the dog turning from the object of desire. It breaks the focus and temptation


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@dogma13 gets the head moving. Where the nose goes the body follows. 😆
Probably similar to look at me?


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## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> My out is like drop it. The dog drops or releases what he has in his mouth. Two ball worked great for this as dogma said. When the out was added to tug. The tug is still (dead in movement) while you and dog are holding. Out. The second he released he was instantly released back on to the tug or given the tug. No conflict this way worked great for me.
> 
> My leave it is an emergency type command I don't use often but revisit training it regularly.
> When I say leave it the dog is to turn towards me. I typically step backwards excitiedly or exaggerated large step almost like a leap when the dog is turning (slightly) towards me away from what i want him to leave. This movement from me gets the rest of his body moving to me.
> I can share how I taught it if you need it.


 Thank you for breaking this down! I like the idea of having a command for something more serious and then the other for relaxed situations.


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## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> Play two ball with him.When he brings back the first ball he doesn't get the second ball until he drops the first one. Mark the instant he drops it with Out or Leave it and throw the second ball. Repeat.
> You can practice indoors by holding a small treat or kibble and pulling it back if he goes for it.After a couple of tries he will pause beforehand.Mark that pause with the command and give a treat from your other hand with a release word OK!He should pick up this game pretty quickly. When you're confident he's "got it" you can drop a treat on the floor, give the command, give him a treat after scooping up the one on the floor.
> There are other variations of this,but I've always had success with this method. Eventually substitute lavish praise for the food.


I have seen people with 2 balls before never registered in my head that it was a trade! I’m going to get a second ball right away and start training this. I also will add the indoor suggestion since most days I hand feed him still. He enjoys working for his food lol. Thank you!!!!


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## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> I wonder if your tone is different using the same words but naturally to you the item is less serious so you sound less serious. Make sense? My leave it is said in a more serious tone (kind of sharp) I don't use often.


To add to this I also find my dog takes me more seriously in the house since I have always been firm about house rules but outside is sort of a free for all.


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## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

3ymum said:


> Exactly like my Buffy! She seems to know if the item is a No No, she will drop it immediately after I said 'leave it'. However, if the item seems to be a 'no big deal', she would refuse the 'leave it' command!


Isn’t it something how intuitive they are!


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

Really helpful tips here! We are just starting to work on the 'drop' and 'leave' commands. Thanks, everyone!

Side note, and purely inconsequential, we use 'drop' instead of 'out' because 'out' is already used for 'out' of whatever room, garden bed, vehicle, etc.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@Kayrod05 welcome. 
One side note. Out or drop it are also serious commands.
I've never had to use it in an urgent way. If I ever do I want it done. I just didn't want to cause any confusion. 

I practiced trading with him for a longtime that helped circumvent and prevent some bad habits. One of the best games with him is keep away. He will give me whatever it is when I say. 

Wish I had thought of and taught out as a biting devil adolescent. Read that yesterday thought why didn't I ever think of that!


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The words don't matter. Use whatever works for you.

The way I do things is: leave it means move on. The dogs name means look at me. Here is recall. Out means drop anything and focus on me.

I teach out like Michael Ellis, in a very motivational way. The game continues when you out. The tug video from Leerburg is worth the money imo.


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> I wonder if your tone is different using the same words but naturally to you the item is less serious so you sound less serious. Make sense? My leave it is said in a more serious tone (kind of sharp) I don't use often.


I have thought about it whether it's the different of my tone but I don't think so or I have done it without realise. I always said it with a lower tone. We practice it when we play tug, and she would leave it immediately but not with the 'no big deal' items. 



Kayrod05 said:


> Isn’t it something how intuitive they are!


Yes, they are and very cheeky! Buffy acts the same as Charlie with ball, she knows exactly what she is meant to do but wants me to chase her or treat, I ignore her until she gives me the ball but then she will try the same thing again! This is a long battle! I will try the 2 balls as well.


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## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

David Winners said:


> The words don't matter. Use whatever works for you.
> 
> The way I do things is: leave it means move on. The dogs name means look at me. Here is recall. Out means drop anything and focus on me.
> 
> I teach out like Michael Ellis, in a very motivational way. The game continues when you out. The tug video from Leerburg is worth the money imo.


I will look into that! Thank you!


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## Bramble (Oct 23, 2011)

Waiting for your dog to "tire" of the toy on their own may not work with a GSD. For them possessing a thing is often more enjoyable than sharing it. 

It may seem counterintuitive, but don't make accessing the toy difficult. If your dog has to run through a bunch of commands before they get the toy, then once they get it they won't want to give it up because they worked so hard to get it and they also know once they give it up you will make them work hard to get it back. You want the interaction to be about playing with you not just about getting the toy. When I am working on an out I make getting the toy very easy so my dog know they if they out I give it right back and the game is fun for them. Eventually you will be able to make accessing the toy more work, but you need a solid foundation first.


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## Bearshandler (Aug 29, 2019)

I do it based on the way Michael Ellis does it. I get the dog excited then play tug. After a little bit of tug, I brace the tug, usually against my knee, then wait for the dog to let go. Once the dog lets go I continue the game. The hard part is bracing the toy so that it doesn’t move.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

@3ymum the keep away game is how dogs play with each other. There's nothing wrong with playing that game with them, they love it!But only when you choose to, not them.That's why I like what Apex1 did with the Leave It command - dog steps toward you which is the opposite of running away playfully. When training it the most important thing is the immediate reward of a different toy.Immediately! It creates an automatic response so the dog feels happy to drop it or leave it.


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> My leave it is an emergency type command I don't use often but revisit training it regularly.
> When I say leave it the dog is to turn towards me. I typically step backwards excitiedly or exaggerated large step almost like a leap when the dog is turning (slightly) towards me away from what i want him to leave. This movement from me gets the rest of his body moving to me.
> I can share how I taught it if you need it.


Yes, please if you don't mind. It's always good to know a method that works.



dogma13 said:


> @3ymum the keep away game is how dogs play with each other. There's nothing wrong with playing that game with them, they love it!But *only when you choose to, not them*.That's why I like what Apex1 did with the Leave It command - dog steps toward you which is the opposite of running away playfully. When training it the most important thing is the immediate reward of a different toy.Immediately! It creates an automatic response so the dog feels happy to drop it or leave it.


This is what I want to achieve. I will have to practice it more to get that auto response!


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

There's plenty of good advice here so im just coming to say you have good taste in names😎


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@3ymum here you go 😀



I have 2 treat marker words. For leave it I use my YUP marker. When I use this marker I always toss treats. I use YES which means come get your treat from my hand. 

I start in low distraction like in the house or your yard.

Dog is on leash. Standing in front of you

Fill one pocket with treats your dog likes.

Fill the other with things that your dog cannot consume, that hold NO value to them. I never use Leave it with an item the dog will be allowed to have. Black and white. I used rocks at first big enough that my dog won't inadvertently eat one - choose things that are SAFE for your dog if they accidentally pick it up.


With your dog in front of you, give your marker word and immediately toss them a treat (make sure the marker word comes first, and THEN you reach for and toss a treat - don't toss at the same time as you speak else your dog won't listen to the word and will instead focus on your movement) 

After a couple of treat tosses, say "LEAVE IT" (instead of your marker word) and toss your NO VALUE item 

Let your dog investigate your NO VALUE item as much as they want - don't say anything. 

As soon as your dog looks back your way, give your MARKER word and take a big step backwards, offering them a treat. I use my marker YES here which means come take the treat from my hand. 


Be sure to vary how many times you toss a treat with each session so you don't become predictable.

This is how I start teaching leave it.


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

That's interesting.... very useful for a dog that is really determined to snatch things up while you're struggling to train. I've never had the need though (so far!)


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

I use it for dog reactivity. I know it seems probably odd. Works great for us. I don't usually use it for anything the dog is picking up unless its poop. Lol


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## 3ymum (Oct 12, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> @3ymum here you go 😀
> 
> 
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Thank you so much for the instructions! First of all I have to train myself with all the steps before I try on Buffy as I understand the timing and every step is important (mark first then toss treat). Our dogs make our life so much fun and challenging, lol


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## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

peachygeorgia said:


> There's plenty of good advice here so im just coming to say you have good taste in names😎


Haha you have a Charlie too I see! My husbands favorite movie as a child was all dogs go to heaven and once my then 2 year old said “I like Charwie” we were sold.


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## Kayrod05 (Oct 4, 2021)

Apex1 said:


> @3ymum here you go 😀
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for breaking that down! I’m gonna screen shot it and keep it on my phone to reference. I like the idea of using something he can’t consume bc I have see people use food but then give another piece of food and leave the off limits one on the floor which was confusing to me bc I would eventually give it to him lol


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## peachygeorgia (Oct 5, 2021)

Kayrod05 said:


> Haha you have a Charlie too I see! My husbands favorite movie as a child was all dogs go to heaven and once my then 2 year old said “I like Charwie” we were sold.


Oh my goodness this is too funny, my Charlie is named after the same exact thing!!! what a coincidence! it was my favorite movie as a kid and I thought he looked a lot like the pup from it😆


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

When I started fetch I randomly decided to use 2 balls and say drop it. My trainer taught leave it with a treat and marking it once the dog made eye contact. And the treat that was on the floor or in my hand I don't give to the dog. When she's not looking I put it away and still give it after. Now I started using leave it outside for walks when she's wanting to lung at cars or bark at dogs. This way she makes eye contact before the reaction so I mark and reward. It's worked well this week. Slowly getting use to her body language.

I have one tug toy. Another coming. I'll use switch so she drops the one in her mouth for the other. Make the game twice as fun lol.

I may also try using Focus during walks. Didn't work before outside cause we just started walks and way too many distractions and everything was new. Shes getting the hang of walks now.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

The thing I don't like about trading games, like 2 ball, is that you have to later proof the out without the second toy present and this can cause a lot of frustration with the dog. Without very clear and skillful training, 2 ball becomes bribing the dog and the out won't happen without the second toy in view.

I prefer teaching a motivational out with the reward being the continuation of the game. I use a tug and then generalize with other things.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I'll try fetch this weekend with 1 ball at a short distant cause there's still hard snow on some spots on the yard. 2 balls was done before teaching her come outside with distractions so the 2nd ball was a bribe. Also made the game continuous at her early puppy stage cause I'd just toss the ball not a far distant by the time she got the other and kept her going for exercise. 

Would you recommend using a different word outside than "Yes" to mark when she brings the ball back cause so far "Yes" always offered a treat reward or can I use the reward concept with a toy (ball)? Reward can be either a food or toy right?

I know Apex is using another marking word when he tosses the treat compared to getting from his hand, so I may do that also.


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## SMcN (Feb 12, 2021)

We, evidently and inadvertently, did this correctly as we started the 'drop it' command with the tug toy a la Michelle Ellis method. She is now pretty reliable (I won't say 100% on anything for a very, very, very long time) on dropping whatever it is you ask of her. This translated to her beloved and highly valued balls. It has even gone over to sticks. Disgusting tidbits out of the compost area are still pretty high value and you need her ball to get that one to work. (Also need to fence off compost area....another task on a long list....)

Re marking words, we have listened to videos that suggest the 'yes' marker predicting a reward (if that is the word you use) means the dog stays in place and you give the dog the reward. The 'release' marker (free, break, ok, whatever) is the dog comes to you or goes to the reward if you are tossing it away. Would appreciate clarification if I have that wrong or have described it inadequately.


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## AE316 (Oct 24, 2017)

I have seen videos where people during fetch used break/free to toss the item. I've been tossing treats during "ok" which this weekend I'll change to "break". I'm no longer a fan of that lol. 

I'm also signing up with Shield K9 elite off-leash program so that'll help me out also. Plus going to watch some Michael Ellis videos. 

When I clean her paws at the door when she's in a down I'll use the release word without a treat though. Is that okay? Or once again preference where I can use another word to release without a reward?


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## drparker151 (Apr 10, 2020)

We did use two ball to get Jaz to come all the way back to us and not stop short. However we also used drop it before throwing the 2nd ball. Now we have no trouble with a single ball and dropping it at our feet. 

When she is really full of energy she will drop it while running at us so it rolls to us.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@AE316 "break" is the reward it doesn't get a treat.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

@SMcN for me the release is the reward be free be a dog, I'll praise and play around. I make the break fun. Words don't matter as much as you being consistent in what works for your dog if that makes sense. 

For example if I'm teaching a position like sit as soon as that butt hits the ground I say yes and dog gets reward and can break position. 

I want the dog able to get into the position in a variety of senerios. Duration comes easier when they are really clear on the position and your are clear on expectation.


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Be careful building habits that will be counter productive in the future. Once a behavior is solid, be sure to switch to intermittent rewards and shake them up. Start chaining behaviors together in variable combinations.

Remember how pattern cognizant these dogs are. If you build a solid pattern, changing it later can be difficult.

An example would be leaving the house to train. If you grab rewards, put on a particular pair of shoes, wear a certain coat only when you are doing formal training, the commands you proof under those conditions will not necessarily generalize to when you are on an adventure or just out for a walk because the game is different to the dog.

Sometimes this is very useful, as in charging the fur saver that is just worn for a particular sport or a harness for a working dog.

Sometimes this can work against you if your dog figures out when particular behaviors will be rewarding and when they won't.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Sometimes this can work against you if your dog figures out when particular behaviors will be rewarding and when they won't.


I think I did this with Apex creating a mule in our first couple years. One of many things I did wrong. Lol


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## David Winners (Apr 30, 2012)

Apex1 said:


> I think I did this with Apex creating a mule in our first couple years. One of many things I did wrong. Lol


Everyone does this for a few dogs until they figure out what things they like and what they don't. I now start from day one working on things in a way that is beneficial to the next 12 years with the dog. It took me a while to figure out what that means for me and my dogs.


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## Apex1 (May 19, 2017)

David Winners said:


> Everyone does this for a few dogs until they figure out what things they like and what they don't. I now start from day one working on things in a way that is beneficial to the next 12 years with the dog. It took me a while to figure out what that means for me and my dogs.


That is so very true. 
I built drive in Apex then didn't know what to do with it. I ended up with a dog with no impulse control. Who wanted to fight me on everything. He wasn't learning and I created a monster. Nothing was functional outside of a training session. Eventually he didn't even want to train. Everything was wrong. He didn't even like me or respect me. 

I had to admit to myself I needed a calm dog. I had to imagine they ways I'd use things in real life and build that way. I had to start all over. In the following 3 years I figured him out mostly. Using positive only through the collared scholar. Sheild k9s program is helping me now finish up. So I've taken from all of you here, countless YouTube videos, books, and the online courses. I want to get through the functional obedience so we can get to the fun stuff. Enjoy the world.

Sometimes his food drive is off the charts and he is devouring my hand. I know he isn't learning. Finding that sweet spot of learning, motivation and happiness. So many moving parts. Best lessons I've learned are from my mistakes. 

The joy in seeing how proud they are when they get it. Rewarding 

Zephyr on the other hand can have excitement oozing out of him bouncing like a kangaroo and sit on a dime. The two dogs could not be more different.


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