# Levels of knowledge for the average pet owner.



## shepherdmom

What level of knowledge about the GSD do you expect a pet owner to have? 

I believe I am above average pet owner in the fact that I researched a little bit about the breed. I know the major illnesses that my dog can get, I know the amount of activity my dog needs and I know that there are show lines and working lines. I have other breeds and I know a little bit about them too. 

So what else should people know to make them a better pet owner. Now remember this is a pet and people have family and jobs and lots of other stuff in their lives. Many have multiple breeds and mixes of breeds. So realistically how much information and research do you think that an average pet owner needs?


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## DaniFani

I don't think it's as much about research as it is about being honest with yourself. I think a LOT of working breed pet owners wannabes think "oh, we'll become more active." Or they camp twice a year, but don't really go for walks, or hikes, etc But somehow classify themselves as active people...Don't get me wrong, I think there are a lot of working breed homes that are really active...but I think most of the time pet owners shrug off the part on EVERY website EVERYWHERE that says "this is a working breed and need lots of exercise and mental stimulation." And just see a fluffy puppy or a "cool" looking adult...I think it's more about selfish wants than anything. Just my .02.


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## Merciel

As much as possible, and always seeking more. 

That's not a flippant answer. I do expect that to be true of _good_ owners -- the ones I would be happy to give my fosters to.

As for "average owners," I couldn't say. I tend to interact only with the best and the worst owners, so I really don't have much insight into what "average" might be, beyond that it seems to vary dramatically by region, cultural norms, and so forth.


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## hunterisgreat

Well... i'm probably a little different, but I learn absolutely as much about everything I choose to engage in... dogs, career choice, how to replace my boat seat cushions, how to make my yard look better etc..


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## MichaelE

Knowledge is a very good tool to have, but it is no replacement for experience.

Both go hand in hand.

The only way to get the experience is to own and train the dog(s).

The knowledge can guide you, as can help from more experienced owners/handlers/trainers.


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## marbury

I work in the vet field. I can tell you that the 'average' pet owner does not even come NEAR this forum. They truly, truly believe that Beneful is an exceptional dog food, that flea and HW medication is a luxury, and that a rabies shot and maybe a DHLPP every year is all they'll ever need. They don't clip toenails, they don't even worry about bathing their dogs, and they only seek medical attention for them when whatever is ailing them is already so bad that there's no easy way to control it.

People take a LOT for granted when they're in like-minded communities. We all have a level of aptitude that is well beyond 'average'.


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## shepherdmom

hunterisgreat said:


> Well... i'm probably a little different, but I learn absolutely as much about everything I choose to engage in... dogs, career choice, how to replace my boat seat cushions, how to make my yard look better etc..



You are a little different and that's not a bad thing!  I'm talking average Joe/Jane off the street. Realistically how much can we expect them to know about their pets? I like knowledge myself. I read a lot and know a little about a lot of different things. But I'm no expert. Nor do I feel it necessary for a pet owner to know that the breed was first exhibited in Germany in 1882 or that Max von Stephanitz was the guy who created them. 

I just get the feeling at times that a lot is expected of the average pet owner around here so I really want to know where is the line? What are the important things to know about this dog before buying or rescuing one? 

The easy things: How much exercise does this dog need?
How much should I feed it?
What health problems should I be aware of and look for? 
How big will it get as an adult? (This one can be problematic for the GSD? Cause talking to different people will get you many different answers) 


But then what else? Well with the German Shepherd people will need to know that there are different lines. Show and working. and within each of those lines we have American and German. In working it gets even more complicated because there is Czech, DDR, and others heck I don't even know them all. Then we add in the other Shepherds Shilo, King, Dutch, Berger Blanc Suissie and is it any wonder pet people are confused? Then there are Alsatian which are German Shepherds and Malinois which are a different breed entirely. 

So where is that line? How much do I need to know before I go buy or rescue a shepherd and where is one place that I can learn all that info before I buy? Well other than here!  I have been reading here for about 2 years and I know I've only scratched the surface.


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## hunterisgreat

MichaelE said:


> Knowledge is a very good tool to have, but it is no replacement for experience.
> 
> Both go hand in hand.
> 
> The only way to get the experience is to own and train the dog(s).
> 
> The knowledge can guide you, as can help from more experienced owners/handlers/trainers.


knowledge is largely the reward for experience.


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## Kaimeju

I think an average or even below average level of knowledge about the breed is acceptable so long as people don't keep spouting off about things they know *nothing* about as if they are gospel. You can research issues as they arise. Everyone needs to know basic things about owning a large dog like requisite vet care, how to feed it well, grooming, socialization, and proper shelter, but I don't think breed specific knowledge is that important for the average owner beyond just recognizing that it's a large, active, intelligent breed. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## shepherdmom

marbury said:


> I work in the vet field. I can tell you that the 'average' pet owner does not even come NEAR this forum. They truly, truly believe that Beneful is an exceptional dog food, that flea and HW medication is a luxury, and that a rabies shot and maybe a DHLPP every year is all they'll ever need. They don't clip toenails, they don't even worry about bathing their dogs, and they only seek medical attention for them when whatever is ailing them is already so bad that there's no easy way to control it.
> 
> People take a LOT for granted when they're in like-minded communities. We all have a level of aptitude that is well beyond 'average'.


The girl who answers the phones behind the counter at my vets office feeds her dogs pedigree. So even between vets knowledge varies greatly. 

We have different communities, cultures, income levels. We have urban, suburb, and rural. 

With so many differences how can a pet owner find the important things to know before getting a GSD and what are those important things? 

Cause I'm really at a loss here. We expect people to pick good breeders, good rescues to not go to BYB or Puppy Mills. So where can they get the correct info. But even more importantly what is the correct info? How much do we need to know?


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## shepherdmom

Kaimeju said:


> Everyone needs to know basic things about owning a large dog like requisite vet care, how to feed it well, grooming, socialization, and proper shelter, but I don't think breed specific knowledge is that important for the average owner beyond just recognizing that it's a large, active, intelligent breed.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


So if breed specific knowledge is not that important. How do I pick a dog? Or a breeder?


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## Jack's Dad

shepherdmom said:


> Cause I'm really at a loss here. We expect people to pick good breeders, good rescues to not go to BYB or Puppy Mills. So where can they get the correct info. But even more importantly what is the correct info? How much do we need to know?


I asked something similar once and never got a good answer. People are told the things you mentioned and then to research, go to clubs, visit the dogs.
It is not realistic. People who frequent this forum and post regularly are not the average pet owner.

Education is key but often on this forum the average pet owner is given way more than they want or will ever need.

Most will buy or adopt close to home from any kind of breeder or rescue and then come here with questions or problems.


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## PearlWolf

I have a two-sided view on this.

I work for a GSD breeder, and it is *our job* to communicate to our customers everything that they could possibly need to know about our dogs, everything from training to feeding to elderly lifestyle and medications/preventatives, etc, whether they ask us for that information or not. I have come across some ridiculously bad owners, who even after all of that information is relayed still somehow raise their dog to be aggressive/never house trained/etc. We find that some owners just don't care to listen to us.

Then, I have the view that would be my parent's side. They don't know squat about dogs, but they love them. They know that their nails should be clipped, their fur should be brushed... but they are the average pet owner, and don't know anything about quality food or anything of that nature. To be honest, when we find customers that are paranoid about what food they get and put this that and the other in their food bowls to keep them healthy, it's seriously a red flag to us because we know that they are gullible and will put any chemical or toxin in their dog based on a rumor and know nothing about it. A simple "Your dog can develop testicular cancer" will run them to get them neutered at 9 weeks old, then whoop, therein your dog will not have the hormones to grow properly and oops, you've just caused him to never have full control of his bladder/bowels. But the average owner doesn't /know/ that. 

so in general, I think the average pet owner knows absolutely nothing, and a simple look on the internet cannot always change that. We who have experience know what to avoid and know what is good information and what is bad, but they do not. The average pet owner believes anything you tell them, but how often do they come across people like us who actually know a thing or two about dogs? Rarely. It makes me sad, but I see this through and through. I not only work for a breeder, I also work at Camp Bow Wow, and let me tell you that I have never in my life realized that there could be such negligent, unknowing people in the world.


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## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> Education is key but often on this forum the average pet owner is given way more than they want or will ever need.
> 
> Most will buy or adopt close to home from any kind of breeder or rescue and then come here with questions or problems.


Education is the key! But if we can't even agree on what it is necessary to know then how can people get educated and if people can't get educated how will anything ever change for the better? I have been one to always advocate getting involved. Visiting a SAR team, visiting a rescue but even then how do you know you are getting involved with the right people?


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## marbury

Ultimately, though, most dogs do just fine in the 'average' house. Look at the movie Marley & Me; if that owner had been on this forum we would have been picking apart that dog's psyche and suggesting crates, training, behavioral specialists... and he was just fine.

When it comes to people who want a working breed, that's where the trouble comes in. Folks who are used to a couch-potato labrador are probably ill-equipped to handle any dog that requires anything more than being let out in the yard to potty twice a day. In that aspect, breeder education is exceptionally important as well as their judgement at sale.
But I don't think we have any responsibility or even *ability* to do anything about the average populace.


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## shepherdmom

PearlWolf said:


> I not only work for a breeder, I also work at Camp Bow Wow, and let me tell you that I have never in my life realized that there could be such negligent, unknowing people in the world.


I had a stranger one day tell me that he had a pit bull/akita mix and that the akita would attack and afterword the pit bull side would sit there shaking. I know I just looked at him blankly but what do you say to something like that. He then proceeded to tell me how he had shot the dog because it attacked someone...but it was best dog he ever had. What?!!


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## selzer

A lot of people will say that a GSD is not for a first time dog owner. I disagree, but knowledge is picked up by both reading/learning AND experience. You can learn about training dogs in books or on the forums, but you cannot learn to train dogs without a victim. And this is why a lot of us do a WHOLE lot better with our second GSD, yes maybe the first was from a BYB and this one is from a good breeder, but 9-14 years of experience managing that drop-eared dominant stubborn fear-aggressive disaster does go totally to waste.

People talk about red flags a LOT when they talk about finding a breeder. I think breeders have red flags when they talk about potential puppy buyers. A red flag is where your gut says, "don't sell this yayhoo a dog." Some breeders only want to deal with people who have experience with the breed. I think it is more likely that inexperienced buyers land with the inexperienced breeders for other reasons though. 

Your more experienced breeders may not be advertising at all. They have people from training classes, dog clubs, and trials contact them and wait for a puppy to be born. Your inexperienced buyer generally wants a puppy that is already ready to go, or is at least on the ground already. They may say, oh yes I want this six-week-old puppy. And you explain that the dog needs to stay with the litter until eight weeks, so come and pick him up in two weeks. Two weeks later you find that he has already purchased a 4 week old dog from someone else. 

Inexperienced buyers often choke on the going rate, and want discounts because they just want a dog for a pet. These people are not going to land on the more experienced of breeders. They will be seen through, and most likely they will decide for themselves to go elsewhere.

And it is not like breeders do not yack on the phone with these people and explain about things like why it is still important for people who want pets to get a puppy whose parents were tested in temperament and health, etc. We explain why the dogs should stay with the litter. But in the end, a first-time buyer knows it all, and goes to someone who has a litter he is willing to sell to anyone, right now. 

There are first-time buyers who have spent a lot of time on forums who know a lot of the questions to ask. It certainly does not mean the dog is going into the best of hands. If it is your first dog, you might have a step up on someone who hasn't a clue, but even spending months on the forum or in other venues learning about the breed, you cannot look at the pup in front of you and assess that pup for its training style and management style, so you will make plenty of mistakes, and it is a testament to the dogs if they manage to survive a newbie owner.

Not having a shepherd before is a yellow flag. Not having a working/herding group dog is a yellow flag. Not having a dog before is a yellow flag. Never raising a puppy before is a yellow flag. A yellow flag means you have to ask a lot more questions. I think breeders should sell to newbies, but they should get a feel for some level of commitment on the part of the newbie to understand if this individual is going to be totally out of their depth or not. 

If you have a dog already, you should know about things like shots, going to the vet, taking the dog to classes/training the dog, exercise and play, how much it costs to feed a dog, whether where you live you have any restrictions on owning a dog, and many other things. You really can't take anything for granted with a newbie owner. And so you start asking some really intrusive questions that don't seem to be related about whether they rent or own, do they have a homeowner's association, do they have a job, and how is the puppy going to be able to be house trained while they are working, etc. 

When someone comes to buy a pup, I don't really want to hear the common questions that people tell people to ask. It sounds learned by heart, and most of the time, the people are just looking at the puppies. 

I want to hear that the people have a plan. They have a plan for getting the puppy checked out at the vet and vaccinated. They have a plan for training, they know of a trainer who has training classes, and they maybe want to do some obedience or something with the puppy. They have a plan for house-training the puppy, and who will be there to let the puppy out while they are at work. Being aware of some of the common ailments in the breed is good. Having a plan of what they intend to feed the dog. Already having a crate and toys and bowls/supplies is also a positive. Not freaking out if the puppy mouthes them or goes for their shoe laces is another positive. 

Your typical pet owner needs to be willing to learn about dogs and problems within the breed. I press training classes because they will meet up with other people over the course of 6 weeks and will learn tons from a decent trainer. And, hopefully, they will sign up again for more classes. 

And a puppy owner needs to know when to call the vet or breeder with problems and questions. 

People learn as they go with kids. And they will learn as the go with dogs too. You learn more from the tougher dogs or the sicker dogs than the ones that never give you a moment's worry.


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## GSDolch

The thing is, there is a lot or conflicting information out there with many many things. So I think it would be hard to really make a list of what is average/good/bad/exceptional/etc.

IMO

There are tons of vets who recommend crap dog food. Are we really going to argue about what a dog is being fed? If he is doing find on it, leave them be, would you rather the dog starve?

I've seen threads on here about how much a dog should get bathed. Some have said they only bath the dog once or twice a year, but will wipe them off if they have a muddy day or something. Are we really going to argue about a dog that isn't matted with its coat in bad shape?

Crate training. Some people don't see a need for it. Some people put up gates, put them in rooms, etc etc. Are we really going to argue about what would be better? Many dogs and owners make it through puppy hood just fine without crates. 

The fact is, there is no one way to raise/have a dog. People will have their opinions on things and do what they feel is best. I wouldn't expect someone to raise their kids how I see fit, I don't expect them to raise their dogs how I see fit. I may talk with them, give them ideas, tell them what has worked for me, and try to help them. However I'm not going to go around calling them a "bad" or less than average dog owner because its not being done MY way.

Unless someone is starving, beating, or just honestly abusing the dog in some way (I don't mean something I don't like), I live and let live.

I don't think that there is really a standard for people to research, at least not beyond the general "is that dog/breed right for me". Many people will research as they go and typically one thing will lead to another and another and another and eventually you have someone who knows more than they did a month ago. People are different like that. Some do it as they go, some dive in the deep end first and some find out as much as they can before hand.


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## selzer

PearlWolf said:


> I have a two-sided view on this.
> 
> I work for a GSD breeder, and it is *our job* to communicate to our customers everything that they could possibly need to know about our dogs, everything from training to feeding to elderly lifestyle and medications/preventatives, etc, whether they ask us for that information or not. I have come across some ridiculously bad owners, who even after all of that information is relayed still somehow raise their dog to be aggressive/never house trained/etc. We find that some owners just don't care to listen to us.
> 
> Then, I have the view that would be my parent's side. They don't know squat about dogs, but they love them. They know that their nails should be clipped, their fur should be brushed... but they are the average pet owner, and don't know anything about quality food or anything of that nature. To be honest, when we find customers that are paranoid about what food they get and put this that and the other in their food bowls to keep them healthy, it's seriously a red flag to us because we know that they are gullible and will put any chemical or toxin in their dog based on a rumor and know nothing about it. A simple "Your dog can develop testicular cancer" will run them to get them neutered at 9 weeks old, then whoop, therein your dog will not have the hormones to grow properly and oops, you've just caused him to never have full control of his bladder/bowels. But the average owner doesn't /know/ that.
> 
> so in general, I think the average pet owner knows absolutely nothing, and a simple look on the internet cannot always change that. We who have experience know what to avoid and know what is good information and what is bad, but they do not. The average pet owner believes anything you tell them, but how often do they come across people like us who actually know a thing or two about dogs? Rarely. It makes me sad, but I see this through and through. I not only work for a breeder, I also work at Camp Bow Wow, and let me tell you that I have never in my life realized that there could be such negligent, unknowing people in the world.


When a person goes in to the doctor for consultation after some tests, once the doctor says, "cancer" everything else is a big blur. I think that it can be very much the same when you go to bring home your knew puppy. If the breeder pounds it into you NOT to take the puppy to a pet store yet, then maybe you will remember that. But there is no way they are going to take away everything that is needed for the life of the dog. I hope I give mine everything that is needed for the next few days -- what to feed, how to feed, how to start house training, don't take it where other dogs are yet, get it to the vet and take its shot record with you, and so on. 

I have a little binder with the papers, and the other paperwork in it, and in it, I have a couple of pages about the new dog, odds and ends, training, etc. And then I have some propaganda from the AKC, like what stuff is poisonous, what venues there are to train the dog. I used to give a leadership booklet by a person I respect in dog training, or a small book on the breed. But I try not to overwhelm the new owners. What is important for them to remember is that they can call me.


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## Lilie

hunterisgreat said:


> knowledge is largely the reward for experience.


Man Hunter, best post I've seen in ages!


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## shepherdmom

marbury said:


> But I don't think we have any responsibility or even *ability* to do anything about the average populace.


But if we don't do anything then bad breeders will keep pumping out unhealthy out of standard dogs for the pet buyer.


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## PhoenixGuardian

I think one thing EVERY pet owner needs to learn to be REALLY good at is reading body language. It amazes me how a lot of people can miss the signs (before the bigger signs) of aggression, and every other emotion an animal feels.


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## shepherdmom

PhoenixGuardian said:


> I think one thing EVERY pet owner needs to learn to be REALLY good at is reading body language. It amazes me how a lot of people can miss the signs (before the bigger signs) of aggression, and every other emotion an animal feels.


That is something I'd like to learn more about. Where do I find information on that?


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## PhoenixGuardian

shepherdmom said:


> I had a stranger one day tell me that he had a pit bull/akita mix and that the akita would attack and afterword the pit bull side would sit there shaking. I know I just looked at him blankly but what do you say to something like that. He then proceeded to tell me how he had shot the dog because it attacked someone...but it was best dog he ever had. What?!!


..... 
What???? 
I have no idea what I wound have said in response!


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## Jack's Dad

So you want a GSD.

There is a lot of variety in the GSD today. In general though, they are a medium to large breed of working dog. They are more aloof than many other breeds and they have a protective side to them. A level of aggression is necessary for them to do their jobs.

They need a good quality food and to watch their weight. There are health and temperament problems in the breed so you need to become aware of them and stay on top of it. They need regular grooming, exercise and vet care.

If you haven't owned them before I would recommend training classes or individual.

Besides exercise your GSD needs mental stimulation or they will find their own outlets and you probably won't like them. If problems arise you don't know the answer to get help soon. They can be the best breed on the planet but if not cared for properly can be a disaster and even a danger.

Some places will not rent to those who have them and some homeowners insurance will not cover them. If they are out of control or have bad nerves they can be a liability.

If you do the things necessary to own this breed they are IMO the best dog you will ever own.
They are Loyal, Confident, Intelligent, Strong, Protective, and above all love their family over anything else in the world.


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## marbury

shepherdmom said:


> But if we don't do anything then bad breeders will keep pumping out unhealthy out of standard dogs for the pet buyer.


OK, so tell me how we as a forum can change that.

We can all work in our own little ways, join national or international causes, get into fields that encourage education (outreach, performance, rescue, vets, groomers etc) but thousands of back yard dogs still never see anything but the inside of their fence. Unless we pull a jehovas' witness and start knocking door-to-door there's just no way to get to everyone or a way to make everyone start caring. And even if the person knocking on my door to 'spread the word' was there to tell me how to vaccinate my dog I'd STILL hate them with a passion, lol!


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## TrickyShepherd

A good understanding of their lifestyle and homelife (Active/lazy, homebound/social, quiet/loud, kids/other pets/elderly family members... etc.), amount of time they can dedicate, family's needs and structure (Does everyone want a dog? Is the family all on board?), experience level with dogs and their ability to handle the dog (small/medium/large, powerful with a mind of it's own or I'm just happy happy happy happy type dog), what age (Puppy, or Adult?) would fit best, enough time for a puppy? Ready for the hassle of all the puppy training and biting and the good, the bad, and the ugly?.... Basically, a really good, *honest* evaluation of what is BEST for the household. 

Once that's understood..... pick the breeds that interests them within their above criteria, research about the breeds..... rescue or breeder?... if rescue: Call/visit shelters or call rescues for the breeds chosen... let them know what you are looking for. If breeder: research breeders, contact the breeders chosen as a potential match. Give them an honest and accurate account of what you want from this dog.

When they have the dog/pup.... I would expect a pet home to at least teach the dog the basic commands and manners... both in the house and out in public. The dog should still be well behaved.... doesn't take a doggie genius to train the very basics (sit, down, stay, come). I expect the owners to respect others and understand their dog's behavior. By understanding the breed they own, that can fix a lot of the misunderstanding with the behavior issues many pet homes see. They should also play, exercise, and give the dog the time it needs to live a happy satisfying life. Depending on the breed... that will range. The owner needs to be prepared for whatever they choose to get.

Even "just a pet home" should do more research when getting a dog than just "Oh it's cute.... I want now". Unfortunately, more time is spent researching a product at a store that will only last a year at most.... but, don't even have a brain cell twitch at the idea of researching a companion animal that will be sharing their home and lives for the next approx. 10-16yrs. Consumer responsibility.

The biggest thing I see within my location is people getting breeds they have no business owning. If someone works 10hrs a day, comes home and plays games or watches TV for the rest of the evening, eats dinner, and goes to bed...... that home shouldn't have a high energy dog (I would argue to say they should maybe just get a cat). So many issues come from dogs who are under stimulated, not socialized correctly, and bored out of their darn minds. Research research research! If a home doesn't have time for that first step..... don't get a dog.

IMO, that's a responsible 'regular' pet home.


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## Merciel

marbury said:


> We can all work in our own little ways, join national or international causes, get into fields that encourage education (outreach, performance, rescue, vets, groomers etc)


And I think that's pretty much it.

I used to be a lot more active about proselytizing, but then I realized that (a) actually I don't know crap myself, so who am I to tell people how to do things; and (b) even if I DID have a clue what I was talking about, taking that approach is annoying and counterproductive.

Going back to the original question: There is no universal checklist for things people should know. There can't be. Every home and every dog is different.

I give a copy of Patricia McConnell's booklet "Love Has No Age Limit" away with each of my foster dogs, and I always tell the adopters that they're welcome to contact me with any questions or concerns they might have, and then I just have to trust that people are humble and honest enough in their self-assessments to recognize what they don't know and seek out information appropriately.

Some do, some don't. Most do, because that self-awareness and honesty is one of the things I look for in deciding which home should get one of my dogs. But ultimately all you can do is try to make knowledge available, try to spread awareness that there are things you can do with dogs beyond walks around the neighborhood, and hope that people have the initiative to seek it out.


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## marbury

Merciel said:


> And I think that's pretty much it.
> 
> I used to be a lot more active about proselytizing, but then I realized that (a) actually I don't know crap myself, so who am I to tell people how to do things; and (b) even if I DID have a clue what I was talking about, taking that approach is annoying and counterproductive.


My point exactly! Activism is great, but it only goes so far. I think accepting that a disparate standard for 'average' pet owners is the reality of life is horribly depressing but essential. Until I started working as a vet I had no idea that people really just did not know and honestly had no desire to learn more about their husbandry. It's a shock but it's a truth.


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## Merciel

marbury said:


> I think accepting that a disparate standard for 'average' pet owners is the reality of life is horribly depressing but essential.


I'm not sure I'd be willing to go _quite_ that far. I know where you're coming from, and I don't necessarily think you're wrong, but I do have a little more optimism about the power of good examples to change norms and expectations over time.

I've posted about it before, but I often practice with my dogs in public areas, and we're really nothing special performance-wise, but we do get questions and comments from passersby who are just amazed that dogs can work off-leash without immediately running buck wild down the street. Often they ask what we're doing, and then I get to give my 30-second elevator pitch about dog sports and how dog sports are great for enhancing a bond and exercising your pet mentally and physically, etc. etc.

I also used to teach basic classes through our dog park for whoever wanted to show up and try something new with their dogs, which I might go back to doing again when the weather is nicer and I've finished Pongu's ARCHMX. Again, it's just a little thing -- basic stuff, simple tricks, no huge time commitment -- but it shows people what is _possible,_ and helps them get started with their own pet dogs. And I've been told by some of those people that it really made a positive difference in their relationships with their dogs.

None of this is going to change the world in any huge dramatic way. But it does change things a little bit for a few owners and a few dogs. And some of them go on to change things for a few other owners and their dogs. I can see the ripple effect spreading out across my Facebook page -- I've seen some of my friends get into dog sports or fostering because I post about it constantly, and then they start posting about it, and then their friends get interested, and usually after that I lose track of them because it goes beyond the degrees-of-association I have on FB, but I like to _think_ the ripple keeps moving past what I can see.

You just have to be open to the possibility of change, and offer what you know if people are interested in it, and don't push it on them if they aren't.


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## Jack's Dad

Nice post Merciel.

One thing I believe that does not help coming from this forum is calling 
average pet owners things like.... idiots, jerks, scum, low lifes and other such terms. 

I made many of the mistakes with the first dogs I had as an adult that are roundly criticized on here. I didn't make those mistakes because I was any of the above terms. I simply didn't know any better and as Jane says when you know better you do better. 

When I was in my 20's I wouldn't have made it past the first person on a forum who said I was an idiot for making those mistakes.

Teaching doesn't require criticism.


----------



## hunterisgreat

PhoenixGuardian said:


> I think one thing EVERY pet owner needs to learn to be REALLY good at is reading body language. It amazes me how a lot of people can miss the signs (before the bigger signs) of aggression, and every other emotion an animal feels.


lol I think all pet owners should become certified decoys in a protection sport of their choosing, but that aint gonna happen either


----------



## Merciel

Jack's Dad said:


> One thing I believe that does not help coming from this forum is calling average pet owners things like.... idiots, jerks, scum, low lifes and other such terms.


I agree completely.

For a similar reason, I'm not really sure that threads like this help, however well intentioned they might be, because they too often shade into a condemnation of "average pet owners" as apathetic and uneducated. Then people get sidetracked trying to figure out if the label applies to them (and defensive if they think they're being insulted), when really the label is a total red herring and distracts from any substantive discussion.

I've just become more and more convinced over time that use of blanket labels does not help anyone's understanding of a topic and, if anything, actively interferes with meaningful communication.


----------



## onyx'girl

shepherdmom said:


> The girl who answers the phones behind the counter at my vets office feeds her dogs pedigree. So even between vets knowledge varies greatly.


My vet doesn't even have shepherd spelled correctly in their system. A pet peeve of mine, if you are making $ off animals, at least spell the breeds name correctly!


----------



## marbury

Merciel said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> For a similar reason, I'm not really sure that threads like this help, however well intentioned they might be, because they too often shade into a condemnation of "average pet owners" as apathetic and uneducated. Then people get sidetracked trying to figure out if the label applies to them (and defensive if they think they're being insulted), when really the label is a total red herring and distracts from any substantive discussion.
> 
> I've just become more and more convinced over time that use of blanket labels does not help anyone's understanding of a topic and, if anything, actively interferes with meaningful communication.


Good point. That certainly wasn't my intention! Like I said, anybody that makes it far enough to come to a forum is already going above and beyond. As far as I'm concerned, all the folks on here are in the upper echelon, no matter their question. They are taking the time to get educated and invest in their dog-related knowledge.

People who aren't dog-crazy aren't bad people. They're not cruel, abusive, or horrible. They're just ignorant, and I mean that in the first part of the definition; "lacking in knowledge", not "uneducated" or "unsophisticated". And that's totally OK! After all, 'average' is a statistic that incorporates the mega-obsessed and the mega-negligent. I'm totally ignorant about cars. I can still own and drive one, I just have nothing invested in whats under the hood, don't care about dents and scratches, and put whatever type or brand of gas is cheapest to get me from point A to B. I change the oil when it tells me to and if I get a 'check engine' light I go to a mechanic. I'm sure to a hotrod enthusiast I'm just an 'average' car owner.
That's my parallel to dog owners; 'average' dog owners can still own dogs, it just isn't important to them how their dog is groomed, how shiny their coat is, what pedigree they have, and give them whatever dog food is cheapest and keeps them fed and happy. They give shots when they need to and if their pet is sick they go to the vet. So to me, they're average pet owners.


----------



## Mr. D

shepherdmom said:


> The girl who answers the phones behind the counter at my vets office feeds her dogs pedigree. So even between vets knowledge varies greatly.


What if that's all she can afford in her current financial position? I don't base other's knowledge on what they can or can't buy. It's a bit presumptuous at best...
I overheard a couple some time ago at PetFart discussing what food they could afford. They were comparing ingredients and nutritional content to the "best" food while talking about their issue. I tried not to listen too much. They were in my way of getting my food. I had to go around several times.


----------



## selzer

marbury said:


> Good point. That certainly wasn't my intention! Like I said, anybody that makes it far enough to come to a forum is already going above and beyond. As far as I'm concerned, all the folks on here are in the upper echelon, no matter their question. They are taking the time to get educated and invest in their dog-related knowledge.
> 
> People who aren't dog-crazy aren't bad people. They're not cruel, abusive, or horrible. They're just ignorant, and I mean that in the first part of the definition; "lacking in knowledge", not "uneducated" or "unsophisticated". And that's totally OK! After all, 'average' is a statistic that incorporates the mega-obsessed and the mega-negligent. I'm totally ignorant about cars. I can still own and drive one, I just have nothing invested in whats under the hood, don't care about dents and scratches, and put whatever type or brand of gas is cheapest to get me from point A to B. I change the oil when it tells me to and if I get a 'check engine' light I go to a mechanic. I'm sure to a hotrod enthusiast I'm just an 'average' car owner.
> That's my parallel to dog owners; 'average' dog owners can still own dogs, it just isn't important to them how their dog is groomed, how shiny their coat is, what pedigree they have, and give them whatever dog food is cheapest and keeps them fed and happy. They give shots when they need to and if their pet is sick they go to the vet. So to me, they're average pet owners.


I think a lot of people were average pet owners, and when their dog had behavioral or health problems, they came here. I don't know that these average owners would fit your description. I think average owners can still find good food, and go to training classes, and care about whether their dog is groomed and healthy. A lot of average pet owners dog learn about their breed. They may not spend all evening every night on a forum, but that doesn't mean they aren't feeding excellent food, training, and managing their dog properly in public. 

I think there are average owners, and then there are those owners who are definitely below average, those who abuse their dogs or let them run willy nilly everywhere, those who let their dogs bite people, more than once, those that feed macaroni noodles to their dogs and nothing else. Those that feed ole roy, and benful; those that use the ole rubber band method for neutering, and those that pump out one set of puppies after another from their dog and dump them in shelters. 

I think a lot of the average owners that come here with legitimate questions and stick around, maybe become even better owners with more knowledge. But I do not know that I would label the majority of owners out there, people who fit your description. I hope.


----------



## marbury

Well, I'm certainly not going to argue with anybody. I bet it's also quite regional. I'm in Georgia, after all. I imagine that our 'average' is very different from, say, LA or NY in terms of types of dog owners.

Glad other folks have better experiences!


----------



## Kaimeju

shepherdmom said:


> So if breed specific knowledge is not that important. How do I pick a dog? Or a breeder?



If you're picking a breeder it's important. I was referring to what it takes to own a dog, not purchase one. That's a whole different ballgame.


----------



## shepherdmom

marbury said:


> OK, so tell me how we as a forum can change that.
> 
> We can all work in our own little ways, join national or international causes, get into fields that encourage education (outreach, performance, rescue, vets, groomers etc) but thousands of back yard dogs still never see anything but the inside of their fence. Unless we pull a jehovas' witness and start knocking door-to-door there's just no way to get to everyone or a way to make everyone start caring. And even if the person knocking on my door to 'spread the word' was there to tell me how to vaccinate my dog I'd STILL hate them with a passion, lol!


I don't know how we can change it. I'm asking.


----------



## shepherdmom

Mr. D said:


> What if that's all she can afford in her current financial position? I don't base other's knowledge on what they can or can't buy. It's a bit presumptuous at best...
> I overheard a couple some time ago at PetFart discussing what food they could afford. They were comparing ingredients and nutritional content to the "best" food while talking about their issue. I tried not to listen too much. They were in my way of getting my food. I had to go around several times.


I wasn't being snotty. We were talking about the different foods the vet sells several kinds and what was best for the dog when she mentioned she liked pedigree better than the other foods not because of price but because her dogs liked it.


----------



## shepherdmom

onyx'girl said:


> My vet doesn't even have shepherd spelled correctly in their system. A pet peeve of mine, if you are making $ off animals, at least spell the breeds name correctly!


Yikes!


----------



## shepherdmom

Jack's Dad said:


> So you want a GSD.
> 
> There is a lot of variety in the GSD today. In general though, they are a medium to large breed of working dog. They are more aloof than many other breeds and they have a protective side to them. A level of aggression is necessary for them to do their jobs.
> 
> They need a good quality food and to watch their weight. There are health and temperament problems in the breed so you need to become aware of them and stay on top of it. They need regular grooming, exercise and vet care.
> 
> If you haven't owned them before I would recommend training classes or individual.
> 
> Besides exercise your GSD needs mental stimulation or they will find their own outlets and you probably won't like them. If problems arise you don't know the answer to get help soon. They can be the best breed on the planet but if not cared for properly can be a disaster and even a danger.
> 
> Some places will not rent to those who have them and some homeowners insurance will not cover them. If they are out of control or have bad nerves they can be a liability.
> 
> If you do the things necessary to own this breed they are IMO the best dog you will ever own.
> They are Loyal, Confident, Intelligent, Strong, Protective, and above all love their family over anything else in the world.


I like this Andy!


----------



## hunterisgreat

onyx'girl said:


> My vet doesn't even have shepherd spelled correctly in their system. A pet peeve of mine, if you are making $ off animals, at least spell the breeds name correctly!


My *previous* vet had *CAUTION* written and highlighted across Jägers record book for unknown reasons... caution why? cause he's a GSD? figured staff members would be able to figure that out on their own.


----------



## Lilie

hunterisgreat said:


> My *previous* vet had *CAUTION* written and highlighted across Jägers record book for unknown reasons... caution why? cause he's a GSD? figured staff members would be able to figure that out on their own.


Maybe it had nothing to do with the puppers.....LOL!


----------



## Mr. D

shepherdmom said:


> I wasn't being snotty. We were talking about the different foods the vet sells several kinds and what was best for the dog when she mentioned she liked pedigree better than the other foods not because of price but because her dogs liked it.


You didn't mention that pertinent info.


----------



## llombardo

I have had dogs my whole life, most of them GSD mixes, but never a pure bred. Didn't know what they "required", but I did know that a good diet, socialization, training, and vet care is needed and that is for any breed. Neither of mine get destructive if they don't get exercise, but will run and play any time they are allowed. They are well behaved and are loved. They are happy well adjusted dogs that succeed in everything I do with them.


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## Syaoransbear

I expect them to know pretty much nothing about german shepherds. It doesn't even surprise me when a german shepherd owner doesn't know they come in more colors than black and tan.


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## LifeofRiley

Merciel said:


> Going back to the original question: There is no universal checklist for things people should know. There can't be. Every home and every dog is different.


I agree. Like Merciel, my experience is in all-breed rescue. So, my thoughts on this are from that point-of-view.

I think that an individual’s mindset about pet ownership is the most important thing to evaluate. By that, I mean, do they see the pet (regardless of breed) as a living entity with a distinct personality that they will have to get to know, understand and meet the needs of? Are they open to the ups and downs of incorporating a new pet into their family and household? Are they willing and able to deal with unexpected challenges and take the necessary steps to address them? 

In terms of GSDs, I have fostered many. And, in evaluating potential adopters I take many factors into consideration. But, in the end, the most important factor to me is the person’s ability to engage with the dog in front of them, listen to my descriptions of that particular dog’s behavior, ask good questions as it pertains to that dog and then be able articulate how that dog (not breed) would be a good fit into their home and lifestyle. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that I value potential adopters who want to get to know the dog as a dog vs. only seeing that dog through the lens of their imagination of how a GSD will behave. 




> I give a copy of Patricia McConnell's booklet "Love Has No Age Limit" away with each of my foster dogs.


I am going to start doing this too! Great idea!


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> That is something I'd like to learn more about. Where do I find information on that?


Language of Dogs: Sarah Kalnajs: 9781929242405: Amazon.com: Books

is the best single primer on basic canine body language, IMO.

You can get bits and pieces of it from lots of different places. Dr. Sophia Yin has a ton of blog posts about it, Brenda Aloff has a photo book titled Canine Body Language, and then of course there are lots of more specialized explorations (agility people have _massive_ resources on spotting subtle signs of pain and injury, Michael Ellis has great stuff on aggression, Temple Grandin's work on calming signals is a classic)... but if you only have time to look at one specific resource, then I would say that Kalnajs's DVDs pack the most variety into one place.

Seeing it on film is a lot better than still photos, too, since you can always pause and rewind as needed, and the picture quality is better than what you'd get on Youtube.


----------



## Jack's Dad

[/QUOTE]In terms of GSDs, I have fostered many. And, in evaluating potential adopters I take many factors into consideration. But, in the end, the most important factor to me is the person’s ability to engage with the dog in front of them, listen to my descriptions of that particular dog’s behavior, ask good questions as it pertains to that dog and then be able articulate how that dog (not breed) would be a good fit into their home and lifestyle. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that I value potential adopters who want to get to know the dog as a dog vs. only seeing that dog through the lens of their imagination of how a GSD will behave. [/QUOTE]

I would agree with this if you have spent enough personal time with the dog. Some rescues run dogs through because they don't have enough fosters. In those cases they need IMO to understand the basic characteristics of the GSD breed. GSDS and Beagles are both dogs with great noses, beyond that forget about it.


----------



## LifeofRiley

Jack's Dad said:


> I would agree with this if you have spent enough personal time with the dog. Some rescues run dogs through because they don't have enough fosters. In those cases they need IMO to understand the basic characteristics of the GSD breed. GSDS and Beagles are both dogs with great noses, beyond that forget about it.


Yes, I agree. As I said, I consider many factors when evaluating a match between a potential adopter and a particular dog. "Mindset" as I defined it earlier has always been the best indicator for me. But, of course, I always speak to folks about breed characteristics (when the foster in question is a known breed), but I always bring it back to characteristics this particular dog does or does not show.

The point I was trying to make is that I am I very leery of adopting a GSD foster out to someone whose interest in a dog is less about what they have been told about any given dog in question and more about how they imagine a GSD will 'auto-magically' behave.


----------



## doggiedad

so, a person has a lot of information on the breed but if the dog
isn't trained/well trained and highly socialized what does all of the
information do?



shepherdmom said:


> What level of knowledge about the GSD do you expect a pet owner to have?
> 
> I believe I am above average pet owner in the fact that I researched a little bit about the breed. I know the major illnesses that my dog can get, I know the amount of activity my dog needs and I know that there are show lines and working lines. I have other breeds and I know a little bit about them too.
> 
> So what else should people know to make them a better pet owner. Now remember this is a pet and people have family and jobs and lots of other stuff in their lives. Many have multiple breeds and mixes of breeds.
> 
> >>>>> So realistically how much information and research do you think that an average pet owner needs? <<<<<
> 
> [/QUOTE]


----------



## shepherdmom

doggiedad said:


> so, a person has a lot of information on the breed but if the dog
> isn't trained/well trained and highly socialized what does all of the
> information do?


I was hoping better information would help people make better choices on getting a dog. 

What do you consider highly trained and why do you think that is necessary for a pet home? I teach my dogs manners. They sit, they down, they don't jump, they don't beg, they don't lick humans (well except for one who is still working on it) and they are not allowed on the furniture. They walk on a leash and they are behaved at the vets office and with visitors to my house... and a couple of them do some silly tricks. What else do they need?


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> What else do they need?


I strongly (STRONGLY!) feel that training needs to go on for the entire life of the dog, for the benefit of the dog's own happiness and mental well-being. This is a bit of a tangent and not directly related to your post, but since it hits on a hot button for me, I'll go on a ramble about it anyway.

It's been shown that animals who get less mental stimulation in their lives have physically less developed brains. They're more vulnerable to dementia in old age and as a result of disease. Rats in barren cages with nothing to do had smoother, less densely connected brains; children who grew up in old-fashioned orphanages were similarly deprived (some, infamously, to the point where they _died_ because of lack of emotional and intellectual development). They actually, measurably become less intelligent and resilient.

Dogs are highly intelligent animals. They have emotional and intellectual needs. And one of the things I saw semi-routinely when I was doing pet training was the "well loved" family pet who got good food, regular vet visits, a nice comfy dog bed... and no training or intellectual exercise whatsoever, because the owners just did not realize it was important or how to provide it. The dog had good house manners, and so its training ended there when it was a year or two old.

I was sometimes very sad when I saw these dogs. Some seemed pretty well adjusted (mostly because they got mental stimulation in other ways), but others went crazy for lack of stimulation (lots of displacement behaviors -- tail chasing, spinning, etc.). Some of them just "turned off" upstairs. The only old dogs I ever saw who literally could not learn new tricks were the ones who had never been asked to do any tricks -- or much of anything else, either -- for six or seven years and had, in large part, lost the capacity to learn.

I have no checklist of approved activities because it really doesn't matter too much _what_ you do, as long as it's fun for the dog and appropriately challenging for its level of ability. But in my opinion, _some_ form of lifelong training is indispensable. Failure to provide it is a form of neglect.


----------



## shepherdmom

Merciel said:


> I strongly (STRONGLY!) feel that training needs to go on for the entire life of the dog, for the benefit of the dog's own happiness and mental well-being. This is a bit of a tangent and not directly related to your post, but since it hits on a hot button for me, I'll go on a ramble about it anyway.
> 
> 
> I have no checklist of approved activities because it really doesn't matter too much _what_ you do, as long as it's fun for the dog and appropriately challenging for its level of ability. But in my opinion, _some_ form of lifelong training is indispensable. Failure to provide it is a form of neglect.


Wow that is an interesting theory... I'm not sure that I agree with it. My Buddy is almost 12. He has been trained for many years. He has earned his retirement. I am rather lax on him in that I don't make him sit all the way sometimes because I know his back end hurts. He has perfected the half sit. Other than arthritis he is healthy and happy. He is all there mentally. I don't think the lack of continued training hurts him in at all. He has plenty of stuff to keep him busy and engaged. There are other dogs and me and my husband to play tug or ball or just chase around with. There are rabbits and other small fuzzies & birds to chase and not catch. There are coyotes to bark at, kongs to clean out and bones to chew. Car rides to look forward too. Visitors to check out. He used to love being brushed but lately I think it hurts because he doesn't want to sit for very long so I just do shorter times more often. I do not IMO think he is any way shape or form neglected.


----------



## Baillif

That doesn't seem to contradict what mericel said. I have an old fart too. He can't play fetch like he used to or swim a ton or play the same games but we found new games like hunting box turtles...something he can still catch lol


----------



## shepherdmom

Baillif said:


> That doesn't seem to contradict what mericel said. I have an old fart too. He can't play fetch like he used to or swim a ton or play the same games but we found new games like hunting box turtles...something he can still catch lol


I guess but those are games, not really training in the sense I think of training. More along the lines of recess?


----------



## Baillif

Stimulation is stimulation in the case of turtle hunt I never had him do nose work before that point I had him figure that part out on his own. He finds them by scent and digs me up if they're buried. Works more of his brain than sit stand or down could. 

The point wasn't that the dog couldn't live a long time without the training. It is that it is tremendously beneficial to the cognitive capacities of the dogs in the long term. That same research she is applying to dogs applies to humans as well. People with regular mental stimulation are less vulnerable to Alzheimer's and dementia.


----------



## Merciel

shepherdmom said:


> I guess but those are games, not really training in the sense I think of training.


Training is games and games are training.

I think a lot of times people try to draw a clear line between the two, and it's a totally artificial distinction. One of the maxims in pet training is that "every interaction is training." Training is not just formal competition exercises. You don't need to do attention heeling drills or weave entries over and over again as "training" (and actually, focusing excessively on those at the cost of building relationship and informal fluencies tends to bite competition people in the butt sometimes, so this can cut both ways).

It's everything. Mental stimulation absolutely includes box turtle games and unstuffing Kongs and everything else your dog does with you -- but being a responsible owner, IMO, means recognizing the importance of nurturing the animal's emotional and intellectual qualities as well as the physical needs that are often more obvious to people.


----------



## Baillif

Merciel said:


> And I think that's pretty much it.
> 
> I used to be a lot more active about proselytizing, but then I realized that (a) actually I don't know crap myself, so who am I to tell people how to do things; and (b) even if I DID have a clue what I was talking about, taking that approach is annoying and counterproductive.


Someones being humble to the point of being dishonest. Don't let her fool you she knows her stuff.


----------



## selzer

Merciel said:


> Training is games and games are training.
> 
> I think a lot of times people try to draw a clear line between the two, and it's a totally artificial distinction. One of the maxims in pet training is that "*every interaction is training." Training is not just formal competition exercises. You don't need to do attention heeling drills or weave entries over and over again as "training" (and actually, focusing excessively on those at the cost of building relationship and informal fluencies tends to bite competition people in the butt sometimes, so this can cut both ways*).
> 
> It's everything. Mental stimulation absolutely includes box turtle games and unstuffing Kongs and everything else your dog does with you -- but being a responsible owner, IMO, means recognizing the importance of nurturing the animal's emotional and intellectual qualities as well as the physical needs that are often more obvious to people.


Good post.


----------



## blackshep

MichaelE said:


> Knowledge is a very good tool to have, but it is no replacement for experience.
> 
> Both go hand in hand.
> 
> The only way to get the experience is to own and train the dog(s).
> 
> The knowledge can guide you, as can help from more experienced owners/handlers/trainers.


I agree. I did a fair bit of research before getting my dog, but just like having a human baby, I don't think anything totally prepares you for the real deal like jumping in. She's my first GSD and it was a sharp learning curve. A big problem is, you don't know what you don't know.

I'm not a perfect owner, and I've made mistakes with her. But I do my best to keep her in training classes and get out there with her and keep her busy and keep learning myself. 

I think the things I've learned with her will help me if/when I get my next dog. 

One thing that I think is a big issue, is that pet owners don't know the bloodlines as well. I'm a horse person and know my German warmblood bloodlines pretty well (Hanoverians mostly), and I felt a bit helpless when it came to GSD bloodlines. 

I used to ride at a sales barn that imported warmbloods from Germany, so I got a lot of experience with certain bloodlines, and there were definitely traits that were consistent with certain lines. But for the average pet owner, they are not going to have the opportunity to get such a good feel for the different lines and so they really depend a lot on the breeder. 

And I think it's important to remember too, that for all the pro's out there, they all had their first dogs, they all had dogs they made mistakes with, it's how you learn from it.

And yes, every pet owner needs to be realistic about how much time they have to give to the dog and have a good work ethic, I think that is one of the most important things, and it goes a long way to overcoming any gaps in your experience. Because you will make mistakes, but as long as you remain committed to furthering your training and working your dog, physically and mentally, then I think, despite them bumps in the road, that you will raise a happy animal.


----------



## Freestep

I work with the "average pet owner" every day. I've learned not to expect much. 

However, I *wish* pet owners would educate themselves better, do more research, and be more proactive about their pet's health and well-being. Every day I see chronic ear infections, chronic skin maladies, overgrown toenails, obesity, dogs and cats whose coats are matted to the skin. Not to mention behavior problems that could easily be addressed if their owners had a care to do so. And these are the pet owners who actually bother to bring their pets in for grooming! There are many more pets out there--I see them--who are not even that lucky, and have to live with the owner's irresponsibility, carelessness, and neglect. It makes me mad.

I do what I can to educate, but more times than not it goes in one ear and out the other. Often times what I do is simply damage control; I do everything I can to make a pet feel better, educate the owner, and pray that the owner will do better. Sometimes they do, but most of the time, I see the dog six months to a year later in the same exact condition. It's maddening.

So, in my view, the "average pet owner" is far from the "ideal pet owner". I don't like it, but I'm no longer surprised by the neglect and ignorance.

The ideal pet owner doesn't have to show, trial, work, or compete with their dogs. They just have to understand dogs to some degree and meet the dog's needs. Some dogs don't require much--the lazy, shorthaired, easy-maintenance dog that goes outside to pee a few times a day and cuddles on the couch the rest of the time are about what the average household can handle. Any type of dog that needs attention, training, exercise, grooming, veterinary care, etc. is going to require a better owner than average. People should be doing their research before choosing a breed--you have no idea how many of these clueless Labradoodle buyers have no idea their dogs need professional grooming. I lay most of that blame on the breeders, but at some point, when the dog develops a turtle-shell of matting all over his body, you'd think the owner would get a clue.

The ideal dog owner should understand dog behavior and the basics of training and behavior modification, and should research what type of training works best for their breed. For example, if you're used to training Labs with methods that work for them, you will absolutely destroy an Akbash Dog or an Afghan Hound with those same methods. Only a few people reading this will actually KNOW what I am talking about.

I'm not saying all pet owners have to be experts. I'm saying that they should have the understanding that dogs are dogs, not humans in fur coats. And they should have the common sense to talk to an expert if they have a problem that they cannot figure out themselves.

And most of all, pet owners need to have an open, yet discerning mind when doing research or asking for advice. Other pet owners who have been in the breed about 5 minutes will often dish out VERY bad advice to others, and there are irresponsible breeders out there who dish out disinformation and outright lies to gullible buyers. I understand that, as a new pet owner, it's all very confusing. That's why you need to take your time when doing research, and talk to different people who are in the breed or who are knowledgeable about dogs in general. The average pet owner buys a puppy on a whim because it is cute. The ideal pet owner will spend months to years researching before they choose a breed and a breeder. Those who adopt mixed-breeds should understand basic principles of dog behavior and care.

They should also have a basic understanding of how genetics plays into temperament and behavior. Clueless people get Pit Bulls and they "know" their dog will grow up to be gentle and sweet because "it's all in how you raise them"... some of you are reading this and thinking "well yeah, of course!" But that just isn't true. Breeds have been selected by man to perform certain tasks. If a dog is bred for centuries to attack and fight other animals, it's a bad choice for someone who wants a sweet and gentle dog that wouldn't hurt a fly. Granted, some ABPTs are sweet and gentle, but you are going against centuries of selective breeding to expect them NOT to fight.

Yeah, my standards for the ideal pet owner are pretty high, and possibly unrealistic. In America, every family seems to have a dog whether they need one or not.


----------



## shepherdmom

Freestep said:


> Yeah, my standards for the ideal pet owner are pretty high, and possibly unrealistic. In America, every family seems to have a dog whether they need one or not.


Only people who need them should be allowed dogs? That seems pretty harsh. I got jumped on just by saying working dogs should only go to working homes.


----------



## Freestep

shepherdmom said:


> Only people who need them should be allowed dogs? That seems pretty harsh. I got jumped on just by saying working dogs should only go to working homes.


Define "need". I say a family of 5 where both parents work full-time and whose kids are busy with school and extracurriculars, who live in a townhome without a backyard, and barely any time to spare, do not "need" a dog. Often times they get a dog anyway and proceed to neglect it totally.


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## Merciel

Freestep said:


> Other pet owners who have been in the breed about 5 minutes will often dish out VERY bad advice to others


This drives me absolutely batty.

I've been guilty of it myself in the past, which is one of the reasons that I tend to veer maybe a little too much in the other direction now, but even acknowledging my own past sins in this regard... OH MY GOD the terrible advice, it is so bad and given with so much conviction, it makes me weep softly in the corner and bang my head against the walls.

There's no cure for it, either, which makes it all the worse.


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> OH MY GOD the terrible advice, it is so bad and given with so much conviction, it makes me weep softly in the corner and bang my head against the walls.
> 
> There's no cure for it, either, which makes it all the worse.


Haha. There *is* a cure for it though: education and experience.

Of course, the person has to be open-minded enough to accept when they're wrong, and correct themselves. Sadly, we get a lot of people who are so full of their own convinctions that they simply will not listen to reason. Sometimes these people are young and inexperienced, and there is hope for them. But sometimes they are older and set in their ways and there's no convincing them otherwise. Those are the people I really worry about. The ones who think they can stop learning at a given point. I've been working with dogs for some 25 years, and I still learn something new every day.

So now I'm curious, what horrible advice did you give out in the past? This could be educational for those who need to know what NOT to do!


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## Merciel

I actually don't think the advice itself was so bad, it's more that I was super obnoxious about giving it. I was one of those horrible people who walk up to you in the dog park and say stuff like "HEY YOUR DOG IS SHOWING SOME PROBLEMATIC WARNING SIGNS, YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING." Or if somebody had a tiny teacup Yorkie and were laughing about "oh my dog is so brave, isn't that cute!" while it was challenging a massive and occasionally dog-aggressive guarding breed, I would tell them that their dog was not safe (this is not a hypothetical, that one happened).

(yes, go ahead, fling tomatoes and rotten eggs, Past Me deserves 'em all)

A couple of people were gracious enough to forgive me being obnoxious as all get-out, and actually they got on track with advanced training and dog sports with their dogs, and at least one of those dogs ended up getting extremely well trained and titled as a result (I can't take credit for this, all I did was point the owner in the right direction). But other times people were rightly annoyed with me and so now I keep my mouth shut and just try to keep my own dogs out of trouble (which I also occasionally fail at).

The other major problem with the advice I gave is that it was way too complicated for average pet owners to want to do. I would just take it for granted that everybody REALLY REALLY wanted to do intensive training with their dogs (because it's so fun, how could you not?!) and just didn't know where to go for it.

Turns out that no actually most people don't want to compile 20-item ranked lists of their dog's favorite environmental motivators for Premacking, they just want Rover to quit pulling on leash. Oops.


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## Freestep

Merciel said:


> The other major problem with the advice I gave is that it was way too complicated for average pet owners to want to do. I would just take it for granted that everybody REALLY REALLY wanted to do intensive training with their dogs (because it's so fun, how could you not?!) and just didn't know where to go for it.


I used to think that, too. That owners would of course want the best for their pets and would be willing to put time and effort into whatever was needed. That all pet owners train their dogs.

Early on in my grooming career, I got a harsh wake-up call. There was a guy who would always bring his Standard Poodle in without a leash. One day I had the door propped open to let in some fresh air, when the guy came in to pick up his dog. Since he never had a leash on when he came in, I figured the owner had him trained and under control off-leash, and I just let him go free into the lobby to his owner. Well, the dog greeted his owner, then walked outside and started sniffing around. The owner called, the dog looked up, and you could see the wheels turning in his head. The owner called him again, this time with a warning tone in his voice, and that dog leapt joyously away, up and down the sidewalk, and then across the street, ignoring his owner's calls. He was bumped by a car, which knocked him over. He got up immediately and kept running joyously down the street as though nothing had happened, and kept running. We lost sight of him and could not find him after canvassing the neighborhood.

Thankfully, he was found the next day, tired and footsore but otherwise unhurt. But that was one of the scariest moments of my life and it taught me a very important lesson. My error was in assuming this man had trained his dog to the point of a solid recall, or at least that the dog would not run away from him. It was foolish of me to assume that, and it was a serious safety risk which could have ended in total disaster and it would have been my fault. 

Nowadays I INSIST that dogs be on leashes at all times, whether they "need" them or not, and my property is fenced and double-fenced. Still I get idiots who insist on bringing their dogs without a leash because they don't "believe" in leashes, but that's another issue and a totally different type of pet owner: Equally clueless but incredibly lucky.


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## Baillif

Mericel did you seriously go 20 items deep or was that a joke?


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## Merciel

For the Premack exercise I tapped out around 8, I think. It's been a while. So no, in that instance it wasn't literally 20 items long.

However I did once ask a couple of my fellow foster volunteers to compile 20-point lists of _everything_ their dog(s) liked, including both standard rewards (toys, food, praise) and environmental rewards.

For context: this was when I was first starting out in pet training and was looking for test subjects to help me figure out how to do this effectively, so I asked some of my fellow fosters what issues they were having with their own dogs and foster dogs. I figured that these people would know enough about dog handling to tell me if I was giving really stupid advice, and were also good enough friends to be blunt and honest with me. I ALSO figured that since they were already involved in rescue as volunteers and foster parents, they'd be above-average in terms of their dedication and willingness to work.

I'm pretty sure all of those base assumptions were correct, but as it turns out, even uncommonly dedicated dog people are not willing to compile 20-item lists of motivators. Pretty much everybody in that group quit right there and I never did get to telling them how to deal with the leash pulling. So I learned a good lesson from trying that, although it was not the one that I expected to learn.

oh well, you can never have too much humility


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## Apexk9

marbury said:


> I work in the vet field. I can tell you that the 'average' pet owner does not even come NEAR this forum. They truly, truly believe that Beneful is an exceptional dog food, that flea and HW medication is a luxury, and that a rabies shot and maybe a DHLPP every year is all they'll ever need. They don't clip toenails, they don't even worry about bathing their dogs, and they only seek medical attention for them when whatever is ailing them is already so bad that there's no easy way to control it.
> 
> People take a LOT for granted when they're in like-minded communities. We all have a level of aptitude that is well beyond 'average'.


I haven't bathed my dog since I got him [I don't see a reason too], I also don't clip his toe nails since they seem to grind themselves down and the chances of a dog getting Heart Worms is so minor id rather risk that then providing a foreign agent into my dogs body to prevent it continuously.


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## Persinette

Ultimately, I think it's a matter of perspective, sphere of reference and of 'reap what you sow.' Many people get joy from their dogs in different ways and do dog ownership differently. They expect and require different behavior. I think the major problem with the 'average' pet owner is simply they don't know what they don't know.

For example, I know a young man who proudly told me a week ago his family bought a german shepherd puppy. They bought her from a pet store, she has mites and kennel cough. This poor animal is obviously puppy mill bred and will probably develop more severe genetic and behavioral issues as time goes on. They have had GSD before. Apparently you need to watch out for the all black ones, they are crazy, and will jump and bark at your fence all day long like wild animals. Will they be disappointed in their pup? No, I think not. They have no training aspirations and to them, health and behavioral issues are the norm. Just a part of dog ownership. Is that very sad they don't know any better? Perhaps, but ignorance is bliss and they get great joy out of their dogs.

The problem becomes when people are unprepared or have incorrect pre-conceived notions. i.e. they expect a calm, well behaved animal and get a fear aggressive whirlwind who can't settle.

In my experience, dog owners fall into 3 general (read general, obviously there is huge variation) categories, your milage may very.

1) Hard core dog owner who is involved in some sort of sport like agility or SAR and dogs are a major hobby for them. They know a lot about dogs. They are your 'advanced' dog owners whose knowledge of canines--outside of medical/surgical practice--usually surpasses that of their local vets. They could probably teach their own basic obedience classes to your 'average' pet owner and blow them away with their knowledge, even though they are students themselves under the tutelage of experience sport instructors.

2) Your average GOOD dog owner. Has dogs as pets and family members. Takes them on vacation. Does basic training like sit and stay. Keeps them up to date on vet care. Might a) get a dog from a repuatable breeder or b) get a dog from a nice back yard breeder family who doesn't have a huge operation but wanted the kids to see the 'miracle of life' and it's their family dog's pups in the paper, or c) maybe they rescue. Usually says 'my dog is friendly' as fido runs up to great your dog, but that is usually ok because, unless they encounter you, the 'advanced' dog owner, that other dog is also owned by a 'good' owner and they dogs will probably play just fine happily unaware of the the potential risks. They don't care about handler focus or raw feeding. They feed brand food like Eukenuba or maybe Blue Buffalo if they read ingredients lists. They grew up with dogs and just expect eventual health problems to arise or 'imperfect' behavioral flaws that are dealt with and seen as charming quirks. Their dogs are loved, a bit overweight, and have a very happy, good life a family pets.

3) The BAD and/or NAIVE owners. Usually first time owners or serial bad dog owners. Get a dog from a pet store or questionable byb operation. See dogs on tv and are woefully unprepared for the commitment and 'inconvenience' of a puppy/dog. Wanted the dog because it looked cool and like the idea of the dog more than the actual animal. Don't view dogs as family members but as pets only. Do limited to no research regarding dog ownership. Make a half-hearted attempt at potty training and the sit command before loosing interest and can't understand why the dog doesn't just get it. Might keep the dog for it's life and just let it be a nuisance or might dump dog at a shelter to become 'someone else's problem.'

Today, there is less of an excuse of not having knowledge because we have the internet. However, if you don't know the right questions to ask you can still find yourself talking in circles.

For the AVERAGE dog owner who hangs out with other average dog owners, I think they do just fine with their decently behaved fur babies on Science Diet that give slobbery kisses and jump up on (slightly annoyed) company. It's when these dog owners encounter 'advanced' dog owners who have higher requirements of their pets and expectations of behavior that I think friction develops.

No, the 'average' dog person I think is mostly fine. Yes, it would be a huge improvement to move these folks away from byb and into acquiring pets from rescue or decent breeders. Fido plays with Lucky at the dog park and on the family trip to the lake, occasionally barks at squirrels and chews up a pillow and gets an exasperated sigh from mom and dad but hey, that's just what dogs do right? It's the actual bad dog owners who are simply too inconvenienced to do even the basics that are the cause of I would guess the majority of dogs in shelters.


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## gsdsar

Persinette said:


> Ultimately, I think it's a matter of perspective, sphere of reference and of 'reap what you sow.' Many people get joy from their dogs in different ways and do dog ownership differently. They expect and require different behavior. I think the major problem with the 'average' pet owner is simply they don't know what they don't know.
> 
> 
> 
> For example, I know a young man who proudly told me a week ago his family bought a german shepherd puppy. They bought her from a pet store, she has mites and kennel cough. This poor animal is obviously puppy mill bred and will probably develop more severe genetic and behavioral issues as time goes on. They have had GSD before. Apparently you need to watch out for the all black ones, they are crazy, and will jump and bark at your fence all day long like wild animals. Will they be disappointed in their pup? No, I think not. They have no training aspirations and to them, health and behavioral issues are the norm. Just a part of dog ownership. Is that very sad they don't know any better? Perhaps, but ignorance is bliss and they get great joy out of their dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem becomes when people are unprepared or have incorrect pre-conceived notions. i.e. they expect a calm, well behaved animal and get a fear aggressive whirlwind who can't settle.
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, dog owners fall into 3 general (read general, obviously there is huge variation) categories, your milage may very.
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Hard core dog owner who is involved in some sort of sport like agility or SAR and dogs are a major hobby for them. They know a lot about dogs. They are your 'advanced' dog owners whose knowledge of canines--outside of medical/surgical practice--usually surpasses that of their local vets. They could .



I agree with you while post except this paragraphs. But only for a few reasons, and they are petty, but I am going to say it anyway. SAR is not a hobby or a sport. I get your point. This is just a sticky thing for me. 

And I think lots of dog people THINK they know more than their vet, and that can be super dangerous.


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## Jackal

I would hand my GSD leashed to a prospective owner. He's be a great yard stick, as can work out if this is someone, who'll be easily led. 

I would be watching to see, what the handler tried, when the usual did not work. With no trainer knowledge at all. Just a adult human being, perhaps with parenting of kids skills to bring. Id want to see encouragement, praise, lots of talk, touch, pats, playfulness.

and then id be happy for a conformation line dog to go to that owner. As the rest is not rocket science, and easily learnt, on the job in most cases too. 

I would never put a working line dog, of any breed in a non working home, EVER.


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## Jackal

Ive also been offered a few dogs through clubs, _because_ someone has watched me do the yank and crank method sans check chain, we were so convinced was the correct way, back in the 80's. 
Id smack anyone around the chops that did this to my dog now lol


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## Saphire

Jackal said:


> I would never put a working line dog, of any breed in a non working home, EVER.


There are many owners of working line GSD'S here on this forum who are in non working homes and do very well. What is it that keeps you from allowing this?


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## selzer

I am really not a fan of the working lines, show lines are my thing. But not all working line dogs belong in working homes, just like not all show line dogs belong in show-homes. These dogs can do very well in pet homes. Maybe you would have to be a little descriminating with respect to your lines and the individual dogs and the individual home's activity levels, but one should not think they are getting couch potato when they pick up a GSD puppy.


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## WateryTart

selzer said:


> I am really not a fan of the working lines, show lines are my thing. But not all working line dogs belong in working homes, just like not all show line dogs belong in show-homes. These dogs can do very well in pet homes. Maybe you would have to be a little descriminating with respect to your lines and the individual dogs and the individual home's activity levels, but one should not think they are getting couch potato when they pick up a GSD puppy.


I think this bears repeating. It's an excellent point.

My breeder actually says something along the lines of it's wise to remember that realistically most pups end up in pet homes. My breeder is in show lines but I should think this could be true of WL as well.


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## Jenny720

Your levels of knowledge deepens as with anything else and you learn as you go with experiences,goals, challenges, and mistakes. My first german shepherd was a working line from Belgium. He was 2 years old when we acquired him and he had been trained prior. He had his quirks but was a gentleman always and so calm,well behaved and extremely confident and had solid nerves and extremely disciplined. He was exactly what we wanted and at the right time in our lives. He was very happy just to be part of our family even though he was no ordinary pet.


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## newlie

I have only had two dogs and only my current dog was a shepherd, so certainly not claiming to be an expert, just my two cents. Like others have said, most people make more mistakes with their first dog and then bring that knowledge to bear with the second dog and so on. Education is important but so are other things.

1. The ability to recognize you made a mistake and learn from it. I think probably the lessons that resonate with me the most are the lessons I learned from making mistakes.

2. The ability to be flexible and recognize that you cannot necessarily use the same approach with every dog. What works for one may not work for another.

3. The ability to recognize it if you reach a point where you need help and are not too ashamed or embarrassed to reach out for it.

4. The ability to commit-With both of my dogs, I asked a lot of questions beforehand but when we took them home, it was for life, either mine or theirs. There was no "Well, we'll just see how it works out" or "I'll keep them until the first time they misbehave or get sick and then you can come and get them." Now, we all know that sometimes unforeseen things happen and people have to rehome a dog because of circumstances beyond their control. It could happen to any one of us. But I think people need to go into it at the start with a commitment that it's for the long haul. If you are already giving yourself an out before the dog is even loaded in the car, your heart's not it and it's probably not going to end well.


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## Chip18

Well three years and no one has every done this yet??:

Stop procrastinating! Use the Premack principle*/* Getting Stronger

I'll have to add that to my endless list of stuff to review!

My experience with a WL dog as a family pet?? If a potential GSD owner has no idea what a WL dog is best advice is to just say "NO!" 

I was that "no idea" pet owner! Foster turned owner my OS, WL, GSD was just a furry dog with a funny face...yeah not so much!

I had more than a decade of experience with Boxer/APBT, BULLMASTIFF/APBT/LAB and Boxers all well-trained family pets! So a WL GSD no big deal??

I got a lot of things right based on experience but a few things wrong based on GSD's! My guy managed to find my weak points! And he laid low for seven months before doing "the old my dog changed thing on me???"

Lesson number one... "two dogs are a pair, three dogs are a pack!"
Lesson number two... "uh what's rank drive???"
Lesson number three... "uh what's human aggression??"
Lesson number four ... "structured walks are important!"


It was time to put this into practice:










And we got it done! It was ultimately ...not that big a deal! But I don't recommend GSD's to the clueless myself! I have no idea about the SL dogs myself?? So my policy is unless I am talking with an experienced "successful" GSD owner??

My advice is to just say no or if pressed... get a "Shilo or a King!" They look like a GSD but are not! If they don't know what that means...then it's good advice!

Still GSD are number three on the popular breeds list...so what do I know???


But for me my next GSD will also be a WL dog or maybe a Mal or a Mal/GSD cross?? Despite my "problems" they are very awesume dogs!! So I'm a fan!


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## MineAreWorkingline

In 2014 German Shepherds were number two in breed rankings.


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## Persinette

gsdsar said:


> I agree with you while post except this paragraphs. But only for a few reasons, and they are petty, but I am going to say it anyway. SAR is not a hobby or a sport. I get your point. This is just a sticky thing for me.
> 
> And I think lots of dog people THINK they know more than their vet, and that can be super dangerous.


I would agree with you on this. I do view SAR more as a lifestyle choice and second job, something a person dedicates a significant portion of their life to to aid their community. I should have chosen another discipline in my example. My point more being someone who does SAR or agility or IPO, etc. is almost certainly going to be more 'doggy' and have more canine knowledge than your average pet owner.

I would also agree with your second point. A little bit of knowledge can be a lot of dangerous. Medically speaking, vets are the authority. I do think some people, especially the average pet person, have a little too much blind faith in their vets though. I think many vets are a bit lacking in certain areas that are not strictly medical in nature or where big corporations have a significant stake and thusly create a bias in the industry, such as diets and vaccines.


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## Augustine

Realistically? I don't expect the average pet owner to know much. Some people love being willfully ignorant. 

But, at the same time, I think it's beyond lazy and irresponsible NOT to do at least some very basic research into ANY pet. To me, that's just common sense. 

It isn't always easy to know where to look, what sources to trust, etc. but busy lives or not, a good chunk of this planet has access to that information in one form or another, and if you can't take say, an hour or two to do some *basic* research, then frankly, you shouldn't get a pet. 

If you're not going to take the time to learn a little bit about the animal you're getting, then what's the point of getting one at all?


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> In 2014 German Shepherds were number two in breed rankings.


And...that's better???


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## onyx'girl

MineAreWorkingline said:


> In 2014 German Shepherds were number two in breed rankings.


Yet, many that are bred have no pedigree to be traced, can't be registered for one reason or another and the byb's are all over the place. Just think if those were all registered, lol...it would be the #1 breed....sad that everyone seems to want one, yet won't take the time to actually research the breed, pedigrees, health issues or even understand that training is a necessity.


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## selzer

onyx'girl said:


> Yet, many that are bred have no pedigree to be traced, can't be registered for one reason or another and the byb's are all over the place. Just think if those were all registered, lol...it would be the #1 breed....sad that everyone seems to want one, yet won't take the time to actually research the breed, pedigrees, health issues or even understand that training is a necessity.


Pitbulls not being an AKC breed, if they were registered, they might give us a run for the number two spot. It seems like they are everywhere.


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## onyx'girl

yes they are, never ending on CL and the rehoming fb pages.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> And...that's better???


It just struck me as odd that you would post that as German Shepherds have ranked number two for quite a few years.


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## Stonevintage

But, the American Stratfordshire Terrier is a recognized breed. This is what I owned. There is a history and precautions to be taken with this breed. These could be applied across the board on "certain types" of dogs to prevent or "anticipate" the social interaction problems that can be anticipated, particularly with other dogs. As another poster commented on a thread that was shut down, one of the primary distinctions of a good breed representative is a drive to fight (that is one of the reasons these breeds are in this mess - IMO).

Breeders are looking for these drives because that's what people want and that's what the breeds are all about. If wants changes and the public approached a breeders of one of these types of dogs and said "gee - I like the tough look and what he represents, but I want one as gentle as a lap dog, so my baby would never hurt anything" What reaction do you think you will get and what "market" would that support? sales would go flat as a pancake. IMO every adopter/purchaser of this type of dog in the last 20 years is wanting an image or ignorant. They certainly can't be ignorant at this point.


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## MineAreWorkingline

onyx'girl said:


> Yet, many that are bred have no pedigree to be traced, can't be registered for one reason or another and the byb's are all over the place. Just think if those were all registered, lol...it would be the #1 breed....sad that everyone seems to want one, yet won't take the time to actually research the breed, pedigrees, health issues or even understand that training is a necessity.


Good point. I never thought about it that way. They very well could be number one.

I think that some people do a little more research but there is so much conflicting information out there, it is hard to know what to believe. Just look at the difference between the American and the German standard for example.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Stonevintage said:


> But, the American Stratfordshire Terrier is a recognized breed. This is what I owned. There is a history and precautions to be taken with this breed. These could be applied across the board on "certain types" of dogs to prevent or "anticipate" the social interaction problems that can be anticipated, particularly with other dogs. As another poster commented on a thread that was shut down, one of the primary distinctions of a good breed representative is a drive to fight (that is one of the reasons these breeds are in this mess - IMO).
> 
> Breeders are looking for these drives because that's what people want and that's what the breeds are all about. If wants changes and the public approached a breeders of one of these types of dogs and said "gee - I like the tough look and what he represents, but I want one as gentle as a lap dog, so my baby would never hurt anything" What reaction do you think you will get and what "market" would that support? sales would go flat as a pancake. IMO every adopter/purchaser of this type of dog in the last 20 years is wanting an image or ignorant. They certainly can't be ignorant at this point.


A dear friend of mine had his teen daughter's face mauled and disfigured just a couple of years ago. Another friend had his toddler mauled to death by a friend's pet Pit Bulls. Both of them had "heard" of the Pit Bull's reputation but never had a reason prior to their incidences to really mull over what that reputation really meant. They learned the hard way. I keep slipping up when speaking to both of them saying there is no excuse not to know the capabilities of fighting breeds. There is no reason for people, children and pets to be mauled or killed in the inordinate numbers that we see today. They both are quick to stop me and impress upon me that they "knew" but did not know. More needs to be done.


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## jschrest

I consider myself a very average type of pet owner, other than the fact that I rescue abused dogs. I do research on whatever bred I have rescued, but most of the time go with my gut on what would work best for each individual dog. 

I don't think I'm necessarily good at training, and have a trainer coming weekly to work with my current rescue (a GSD), but I am good at making them feel safe, comfortable, and loved. I still need help, I still have questions, but I love to learn, so this forum has been a slice of heaven for me. 

As an average pet owner, I know GSD's take more time, training, patience, and a bit of the owners being slightly crazy (insert eyebrow wiggle here), than a lot of other breeds. I know they are one of the most loving and loyal breeds when trained and bonded properly. And I also know, of all the breeds I have rescued over the years, they are the ones that truly captured my heart, and I will likely never keep another breed. It will be rescue, rehab, and rehome for the other breeds, if I ever decide to continue on the rescue route after Lyka passes.


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## Chip18

onyx'girl said:


> Yet, many that are bred have no pedigree to be traced, can't be registered for one reason or another and the byb's are all over the place. Just think if those were all registered, lol...it would be the #1 breed....sad that everyone seems to want one, yet won't take the time to actually research the breed, pedigrees, health issues or even understand that training is a necessity.


Thank you that was my point!


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## Chip18

And...just to be anal there is no such thing as a "Pitt Bull" American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, yes but Pitt Bulls no!

The term refers to any Bully "type" Breed with a bully type build, usually stocky and powerful and typically not to fond of other dogs, without owner intervention! 

Human aggression is "not" a breed characteristic! People do that! It's not the dogs fault that they are a "fool magnetic!" Just saying.


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> And...just to be anal there is no such thing as a "Pitt Bull" American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, yes but Pitt Bulls no!
> 
> The term refers to any Bully "type" Breed with a bully type build, usually stocky and powerful and typically not to fond of other dogs, without owner intervention!
> 
> Human aggression is "not" a breed characteristic! People do that! It's not the dogs fault that they are a "fool magnetic!" Just saying.


The American "Pit Bull" Terrier is the only breed with pit bull in its name, used first to bait bulls, then later to fight and kill rats in a pit and then later dogs, hence the name Pit Bull. 

Joe Lucero, Diane Jessup, Cesar Milan, and many other Pit Bull authorities, breeders and experts will concur that a Pit Bull is an American Pit Bull Terrier, so will many rescues. Pitbull or pit bull types are a new term coined by the media in reporting in only the last couple of decades.


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## shepherdmom

Wow lots of comments on a 2 year old thread. opcorn:


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The American "Pit Bull" Terrier is the only breed with pit bull in its name, used first to bait bulls, then later to fight and kill rats in a pit and then later dogs, hence the name Pit Bull.
> 
> Joe Lucero, Diane Jessup, Cesar Milan, and many other Pit Bull authorities, breeders and experts will concur that a Pit Bull is an American Pit Bull Terrier, so will many rescues. Pitbull or pit bull types are a new term coined by the media in reporting in only the last couple of decades.


 As I say...just being anal! We all understand the type of dog under discussion...for some reason???

Nonetheless neither the AKC nor the UKC "recognize" a "Breed" called a "Pitt Bull!" You can dual register an American Staffordshire Terrier as an APBT on the UKC but the AKC won't recognize those dogs! 

And if you tell a registered American Staffordshire Terrier, his dog is a Pitt Bull or an APBT you best be ready for a fight!

It's pretty simple for me, when "Joe Lucero, Diane Jessup, Cesar Milan, and many other Pit Bull authorities, breeders and other experts" change the policy of the AKC and UKC and recognize the "PITT BULL" as a "Breed" then so will I! 

For the record my Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab aka American Band Dawg! Plenty of those out there also..."looks like a Pitt to me"...and so it goes....


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> As I say...just being anal! We all understand the type of dog under discussion...for some reason???
> 
> Nonetheless neither the AKC nor the UKC "recognize" a "Breed" called a "Pitt Bull!" You can dual register an American Staffordshire Terrier as an APBT on the UKC but the AKC won't recognize those dogs!
> 
> And if you tell a registered American Staffordshire Terrier, his dog is a Pitt Bull or an APBT you best be ready for a fight!
> 
> It's pretty simple for me, when "Joe Lucero, Diane Jessup, Cesar Milan, and many other Pit Bull authorities, breeders and other experts" change the policy of the AKC and UKC and recognize the "PITT BULL" as a "Breed" then so will I!
> 
> For the record my Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab aka American Band Dawg! Plenty of those out there also..."looks like a Pitt to me"...and so it goes....


Just being anal, but I was talking about the breed, not the type. The breed is spelled with capital letters, the type with small case; and Pit is spelled with one t, as in a dog fighting pit from which its name is derived.

The UKC does register the American "Pit Bull" Terrier which is a Pit Bull same as a Shepherd is a German "Shepherd", one is nothing but a shortened version of the name. One can call Richard "****" or John "Jack" but at the end of the day they still are Richard or John but also **** or Jack.

Nobody is changing anything. It has been this way for over a hundred years with any confusion being a recent matter.

http://www.boldogkennelpitbulls.com/How-To-Use-This-Site.html


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## selzer

But isn't it the AKC that is ranking the GSD #2 by the numbers registered? Maybe there aren't as many pits out there, but it just seems like there are.


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## jafo220

shepherdmom said:


> What level of knowledge about the GSD do you expect a pet owner to have?
> 
> I believe I am above average pet owner in the fact that I researched a little bit about the breed. I know the major illnesses that my dog can get, I know the amount of activity my dog needs and I know that there are show lines and working lines. I have other breeds and I know a little bit about them too.
> 
> So what else should people know to make them a better pet owner. Now remember this is a pet and people have family and jobs and lots of other stuff in their lives. Many have multiple breeds and mixes of breeds. So realistically how much information and research do you think that an average pet owner needs?


I have had numerous shepherds. They have different traits. There are similarities in traits but in the end each dog to me is different. 

Taking that, as I said I've had numerous shepherds. All of them were different but the same in some aspects but they were dogs to me and they got the "standard" pet treatment. With the exception of my last two GSD's. Our late GSD was an inside dog but still had mostly standard treatment. He didn't have strong WL traits even though active. But we loved him. Our current GSD Cruz to say was an eye opener for us. WL dog lines in him show dominantly. This forced us to look deeper into knowledge of the WL breed of GSD. He showed similar characteristics my other GSD's did but much stronger and it took us by surprise really to the point we had to get help with training. He is a highly driven dog. This training also pointed us to something we never considered and that was nutrition. There is more knowledge to be learned there. I think your level of knowledge with WL dogs has to be higher as they are driven and very smart. Not to say SL dogs are not smart, they are. The difference is in WL dogs force you to acknowledge those traits more than maybe a SL dog would. It forces you to be creative with your training. Constantly challenging. Driving you to learn.

Just my take. I leave the medical stuff up to the vet. I do watch for visual cues that something may be off, or treat his allergies when they crop up. But leave the deeper medical stuff to the vet.


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## Chip18

MineAreWorkingline said:


> The UKC does register the American "Pit Bull" Terrier which is a Pit Bull same as
> Nobody is changing anything. It has been this way for over a hundred years with any confusion being a recent matter.


 You can dual register an APBT as an American Staffordshire Terrier on the UKC and not the AKC! I "thought" that is what I typed?? (American Staffordshire Terrier) is not all caps on the web...so I'll roll with that. 

But I type a lot of stuff so I most likely screwed up??? 

I did go to that site but it seems mostly geared to breeders???

But the only link that worked was this one:
Do YOU need a pit bull???

Is it just me?? 

I found that link interesting but as I had no issues save for (Dog v Dog Aggression, yes big surprise,) which "we" solved! My "Pit" type dogs and I had "zero" issues! 

I did see a Dog there that Looked just like Gunther, save for color, Gunther was a Tri Color ?? And they had a "BandDog" on that site! Everybody seems to spell "Band Dawg" differently?? 

But for me...I found Pit-type dogs to be no issue! My "problem child" was my OS WL GSD!! Not much like a Pit...I discovered!  

As you say no one is changing their minds but in an effort to be "reasonable," I will spell it "Pit" in the future!


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## MineAreWorkingline

Chip18 said:


> As I say...just being anal! We all understand the type of dog under discussion...for some reason???
> 
> Nonetheless neither the AKC nor the UKC "recognize" a "Breed" called a "Pitt Bull!" You can dual register an American Staffordshire Terrier as an APBT on the UKC but the AKC won't recognize those dogs!
> 
> And if you tell a registered American Staffordshire Terrier, his dog is a Pitt Bull or an APBT you best be ready for a fight!
> 
> *It's pretty simple for me, when "Joe Lucero, Diane Jessup, Cesar Milan, and many other Pit Bull authorities, breeders and other experts" change the policy of the AKC and UKC and recognize the "PITT BULL" as a "Breed" then so will I! *
> 
> For the record my Gunther BullMastiff/APBT/Lab aka American Band Dawg! Plenty of those out there also..."looks like a Pitt to me"...and so it goes....





Chip18 said:


> You can dual register an APBT as an American Staffordshire Terrier on the UKC and not the AKC! I "thought" that is what I typed?? (American Staffordshire Terrier) is not all caps on the web...so I'll roll with that.
> 
> But I type a lot of stuff so I most likely screwed up???
> 
> I did go to that site but it seems mostly geared to breeders???
> 
> But the only link that worked was this one:
> Do YOU need a pit bull???
> 
> Is it just me??
> 
> I found that link interesting but as I had no issues save for (Dog v Dog Aggression, yes big surprise,) which "we" solved! My "Pit" type dogs and I had "zero" issues!
> 
> I did see a Dog there that Looked just like Gunther, save for color, Gunther was a Tri Color ?? And they had a "BandDog" on that site! Everybody seems to spell "Band Dawg" differently??
> 
> But for me...I found Pit-type dogs to be no issue! My "problem child" was my OS WL GSD!! Not much like a Pit...I discovered!
> 
> *As you say no one is changing their minds *but in an effort to be "reasonable," I will spell it "Pit" in the future!


My comment about nobody changing anything referenced your comment above about breeders changing AKC and UKC policies to accept the Pit Bull as a breed. 

From the UKC website: The United Kennel Club was the first registry to recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier. UKC founder C. Z. Bennett assigned UKC registration number 1 to his own APBT, Bennett’s Ring, in 1898.

The ADBA: The American Dog Breeders Association, Inc. was started in September, l909 as a multiple breed association. The residing president, Mr. Guy McCord, was an avid fancier and breeder of the American Pit Bull Terrier, and was a close friend of Mr. John P. Colby. Mr. Colby was the mainstay of the A.D.B.A. which prompted the boast of being the "home" registration office of the Colby dogs.

FYI: The AKC did not close the stud books to Pit Bulls as AmStaffs until somewhere in the mid 70s, not sure of the exact year.

Point: things would have to change among the registries to NOT recognize Pit Bulls as a breed. 

Not sure about Jessup's website. Their used to be much information there. I have a really nice link regarding vintage Pit Bulls and their history if you would be interested.


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## Stonevintage

Apexk9 said:


> I haven't bathed my dog since I got him [I don't see a reason too], I also don't clip his toe nails since they seem to grind themselves down and the chances of a dog getting Heart Worms is so minor id rather risk that then providing a foreign agent into my dogs body to prevent it continuously.


Heart Worms are not minor. If you live in an area where Heart Worms are present, you need preventative medication. It is 50/50 if your dog will live through Heartworm Treatment - It's harsh and you will be 2 weeks and great expense living day by day with your very sick dog not knowing if he will be alive the next day or not. Just my opinion from having had 2 with it and watched 1 die of it....


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