# Anyone breeding a "line" of GSDs for service?



## Freestep

To expound on a recent thread, there was a discussion about GSDs being bred for service. There is a new poster/breeder here who is trying to do just that, I'm guessing by using WGSL (though he/she has been quite secretive about the actual pedigrees/bloodlines used, so I'm not sure). The question has been posed, is there anyone out there who is having success with breeding a line of GSDs strictly for service work? 

I know many breeders have had their pups go on to become service dogs, but they weren't breeding specifically FOR that--just for sound, healthy dogs with working temperament.

Furthermore, is anyone accomplishing that goal by crossing showlines with working lines? Our new friend is pretty sure that no one has done it, but I bet that someone, somewhere, has been crossing show x work (or as our friend calls it, "interracial breeding") and getting pups that are suited for service work. I have heard that such crossing is being done in Switzerland, and that they are having some success with doing so over many generations.

Can anyone expound on this? If you are a breeder and have produced a number of service dogs, what bloodlines are you using? Has anyone here ever done a breeding with the specific intent to produce service dogs?

I know there are organizations that are breeding GSDs as guide dogs, with their own breeding program, but I do not know what bloodlines are being used. I do remember reading (this was many years ago) that one organization was using a line of heavily inbred dogs--most of them were black--and they were having pretty good success with that line.

Does anyone else have good information to offer on service dog breeding programs? Both historically, and currently?


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN

Fidelco? 
http://www.fidelco.org/index.html

http://www.fidelco.org/breedwithin.html


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## Whiteshepherds

Freestep said:


> Does anyone else have good information to offer on service dog breeding programs? Both historically, and currently?


The majority of Rin Tin Tin puppies are placed as service dogs in training through the ARFKids Foundation. http://www.arfkids.com/index.htm


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## carmspack

back in the 80's I was consulting to a guide dog organization that had one of my females as brood , I had a thema in place -- 
then later on, cross referencing , checking into similar schemes I wanted to see what formula in genetics that they were using that was most productive in positive , certified animals. I was privileged to view pedigrees.

jokingly I could call it the Bodo-m Line as in bottom line.

A combination of the Bodo's so to say . Bodo Grafental to Bodo Lierberg (Bernd etc.) That is what I have in my day to day foundation "Carmspack" -- with new and additive material always bringing in herding line genetics. Some show lines get introduced when I inheret them through Yeulett's of British Columbia . But when she selects a show line it MUST work -- Bazita Olympus is an example , 

here is an example of an early dog used with success -- one of 11 pups - 7 of which were certified working guide dogs into their 10th year . Here is her pedigree G Jamie V Stolzenfels

so you see Bodo Grafental. Then Jamie produced Jette , this pedigree brings in the herding lines Hodenhof's Jette V Fernheim

then she was bred , now bringing in the B - Lierberg lines 
so a construction of Bodo Lierberg , B-Lierberg , OLD herding from early Kirschental , and a touch of earlier WGSL before there was such a chasm in the criterian for specialization. G Ingo Degen V Fernheim

This last set of genetics was the foundation breeding genetics for a closed set on in-house guide dog breeding .
I believe 45 % of the breeding stock at the time had some relation to Ingo.

DDR when combined with herding seems to do exceptionally well in these disciplines. Do notice that the dogs do have SchH titles - 
It's all about the intelligence of working with -- genetic obedience ---- natural instincts .
Show line dogs tend to miss out because they have not been deliberately had mindful breeding for these qualities.
Same dogs go to police , same dogs go to the SchH podium, same dogs go to families as a loving , stable, sane , companion.

Longevity is important . Orthopedics are important. Working WITH the handler , not for ,
is important.

I have shadowed trainers . Invited into the inner sanctum of Canine Vision Canada -- to view pups developing and placing guesses on eventual success or not. Same with on-street training when the dogs were road tested on the busiest pedestrian way in Toronto. 
Seen training for many uses .

I'll probably be shot down for this - the person who inspired this thread has a youtubey clip of a female , heeling in beautiful crisp schH style "fuss" , platzing, man walking away, dog being recalled , leash flapping behind, crisply reporting in front finish, and then crisply swinging to "fuss" , and then rewarded by tidbit of food . 

Fantastic for SchH sport . But in all my years of being in the midst of different work-functional dogs and training I have not seen that much commando type of training . Disabled people don't work there dogs like this. There is much more required of the dog , free thinking , choices to be made, best positioning , listening to nuances, being interested in the handler and responsible to them .
That is why the 8 year old dog being offered to the gentleman with spinal stenosis will likely not work out . The dog is not a tool . By the time the dog and new handler got in sync , bonded , the dog will be much to old 
This is a dog who is "set" in the ways of his former handleer. 
Same goes for police work -- the dog and handler need time working together to become a team . That is why dogs tend to retire when their handler retires -- 
a matter of communication.

written in bits and pieces in haste - more to come later.


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## Liesje

Nikon's breeder has a dog (owned by a member here) that I'm pretty sure has sired at least two, maybe more, litters for Leader Dog. I'm not sure of the females' pedigrees but they didn't look like straight WGSL litters. I think at least one was WL or part WL.


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## carmspack

this dogs brother Carmspack Blackjack Johnson sire for guide litters


because of the dam's line which is true to the formula in my first contribution to this post --


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## JakodaCD OA

One of my first gsd's was out of Otto v Stolzenfels, out of Bodo (grafental),,Otto was used in the Fidelco program..Dodge's father Klockows Wasdy also used in the FIdelco program. 

Crooked Creek has quite a few of her puppies growing out for Fidelco as well.


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## Xeph

Heck, I'd love to see the answer to this, as I'm in the position of needing to find a new candidate myself.


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## SFGSSD

carmspack said:


> Longevity is important . Orthopedics are important. Working WITH the handler , not for , is important.
> Absolutely!
> I have shadowed trainers . Invited into the inner sanctum of Canine Vision Canada -- to view pups developing and placing guesses on eventual success or not. Same with on-street training when the dogs were road tested on the busiest pedestrian way in Toronto. Seen training for many uses .
> That’s great! Do you have any video footage of this?
> I'll probably be shot down for this - the person who inspired this thread has a youtubey clip of a female , heeling in beautiful crisp schH style "fuss" , platzing, man walking away, dog being recalled , leash flapping behind, crisply reporting in front finish, and then crisply swinging to "fuss" , and then rewarded by tidbit of food .
> Was a Tab flapping Thank you for the compliment but it was not SchH perfect she was a little slow that day especially with the "Platz"
> Fantastic for SchH sport . But in all my years of being in the midst of different work-functional dogs and training I have not seen that much commando type of training . Disabled people don't work there dogs like this. There is much more required of the dog , free thinking , choices to be made, best positioning , listening to nuances, being interested in the handler and responsible to them .
> There are other videos on the site and soon to come (by permission of the client) an entire public access test. "Commando?":laugh: hardly. My father trained those dogs in the military. Not even close.
> 
> After you view the rest of the videos and almost a full length movie of a public access test, (I will have up by the end of the month) if you say these dogs are not "Thinking", I am sure a lot of people will call you on it.
> That is why the 8 year old dog being offered to the gentleman with spinal stenosis will likely not work out . The dog is not a tool . By the time the dog and new handler got in sync , bonded , the dog will be much to old
> This is a dog who is "set" in the ways of his former handleer.  Same goes for police work -- the dog and handler need time working together to become a team . That is why dogs tend to retire when their handler retires -- a matter of communication.
> No argument there. This is the REAL unfortunate part of people that need Service Dogs. People want them and are often desperate to get them. The emotional influence of others that tell them "They can do it or anything else when it comes to Service Dogs" is a dangerous combination for a lot of reasons and I am sure you will agree there are people in this industry that are giving the wrong advice. This advice is mostly politically, emotionally and even selfishly driven.
> written in bits and pieces in haste - more to come later.


 
Replied bit by bit in quote (BLACK). You got a lot of knowledge but writing a book every time I reply is going to contribute to a serious case of carpel tunnel  
I would love to see some footage of your "Service Dogs" can you post a link to them if you have any?
BTW, the bitch you were viewing is a WGSL pretty drive for that line huh


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## LARHAGE

Liesje said:


> Nikon's breeder has a dog (owned by a member here) that I'm pretty sure has sired at least two, maybe more, litters for Leader Dog. I'm not sure of the females' pedigrees but they didn't look like straight WGSL litters. I think at least one was WL or part WL.



Yes Lies, Gavin has sired 3 litters for Leader Dogs and the feedback has been great, they obviously have liked what they see which makes me very happy and proud, the females appear to be working lines for the most part.


PS : Lies, please PM me about Nikon !


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## Andaka

Xeph said:


> Heck, I'd love to see the answer to this, as I'm in the position of needing to find a new candidate myself.


What happened to your young male?


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## SFGSSD

I wish I had all the answers. At this point, with me anyway, I consider what I am doing theory. Till I or anyone else can prove the balance, drive, trainability, workability, nerve, along with a VA it is still theory. I wish it was more than that but I don't feel that it is at this point.
Bottom line, These days I have never seen a WGSL work as well as your typical top working lines however I seen a lot of them that are over the top. While I have seen more balance (for my taste) in the WGSL I also see a lot of areas in the line that is lacking as well. 

While Max von Stephaniz- did say “Keep my breed a working dog as I worked all my live to achieve that goal .” He did not say (to the best of my knowledge) it was acceptable to take away from the appearance to do so.


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## Xeph

> What happened to your young male?


He is still here, but he is not suitable for public access work. Great for sport, terrible for service like this


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## ladylaw203

There are plenty of high lines working as police service dogs. I have handled them and certify them for departments. I have Czech dogs currently. There are a lot of nervy working lines out there. One has to thoroughly evaluate the dog not the pedigree.


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## Freestep

SFGSSD said:


> While Max von Stephaniz- did say “Keep my breed a working dog as I worked all my live to achieve that goal .” He did not say (to the best of my knowledge) it was acceptable to take away from the appearance to do so.


If he did say that working ability was more important than appearance, would it change your mind?


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## Whiteshepherds

Freestep said:


> If he did say that working ability was more important than appearance, would it change your mind?


Here's some quotes from Max.

"The Shepherd dog is a service dog & must be bred as a service dog AND must only be judged as a service dog. With service dogs, suitability ranks higher than beauty: indeed their real beauty and their only nobility consist in their complete adaptability in the arrangement, balancing and coalescence of each & every part."

"The basis of the judgement must be the service which is demanded of the dog: shy, weak-nerved animals are to be marked as injurious to the breed, even as over-bred dogs (oversize) are not true to breed type. In addition: a good shepherd expression, a lively disposition, a long well-knit body suitably proportioned for service, not spongy or bulky, whose form guarantees a stretching out & swift gait, with powers of endurance are among the first qualifications. In the case of bitches, solidity is preferred to beauty...oversize or bitch-like dogs and the fading of color coat are injurious from the point of view of breeding & are to be marked accordingly. Defects in body-build and gait, teeth, jaw, head, ears, tail, haircoat, general coloring, and eye color may exercise an influence in marking. Short, stumpy tailed dogs, albinos are dismissed as harmful to the breed."

"Exaggeration is bad in all circumstances."


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## SFGSSD

Freestep said:


> If he did say that working ability was more important than appearance, would it change your mind?


"Exaggeration is bad in all circumstances." Unless I am misunderstanding this in some way... He want the workability to be a priority but the "Exaggeration"... he means this in both work and appearance of the GSD.:blush:
While I agree the "working line" works better it is not the point. The point is that they don't look as good anymore and the "Exaggeration" in that line is producing temperaments that are over the top. For other types of work like Police, MWD, ect. That is great for the most part, till you team a over the top police dog with a inexperienced Police officer as the handler then it can be trouble. 
The Exaggeration in Show line is typically the over angulation (Pia is spot on) and temperaments that are too soft and needless to say lower drives, weaker nerve and workability.
What I am looking for in my breeding program is the desired opposite in each line without going down the road of "Exaggeration". I am looking to build on that. When I can build lines that are closer to what I am looking for from the other side. Then an interracial (Or outcross) breeding should be more stable in creating a line that will produce consistency in what your breeding goals are. (Again this is theory and my explanation of this theory is very simplified here)
 Freestep, I see you tugging me to the all working line side. Don't think I do not appreciate the qualities the working lines have... I do more than you may know, however the typical temperament IMO is Exaggerated.


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## SFGSSD

ladylaw203 said:


> There are plenty of high lines working as police service dogs. I have handled them and certify them for departments. I have Czech dogs currently. There are a lot of nervy working lines out there. One has to thoroughly evaluate the dog not the pedigree.


While the pedigree can give you a "GOOD IDEA" of what you are working with, I agree 100% "One has to thoroughly evaluate the dog". 
This is more important today than in the past. Pedigree with titles and workability ON PAPER was the basis of a lot of breeding’s. You cannot trust the pedigree like you use to nor does pedigree show TRUE workability in the dog anymore. (Paper titles from dogs that have NEVER seen a trial field are not just isolated cases anymore)
Nice dog BTW I love the all black GSD as well. When I am ready to do an "outcross" it will more than likely be an all black working line GSD


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## Freestep

SFGSSD said:


> While I agree the "working line" works better it is not the point. The point is that they don't look as good anymore and the "Exaggeration" in that line is producing temperaments that are over the top. For other types of work like Police, MWD, ect. That is great for the most part, till you team a over the top police dog with a inexperienced Police officer as the handler then it can be trouble.




There is more than one working line. I think you are talking about sport breeding. Not all working lines are the same; some are better for sport, others are more suited for real work, some can do both.




> Freestep, I see you tugging me to the all working line side. Don't think I do not appreciate the qualities the working lines have... I do more than you may know, however the typical temperament IMO is Exaggerated.


I'm not "tugging" you anywhere, I don't know what bloodlines you are breeding now, since you won't tell us. I started this thread so that you could see how other people are doing it.


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## SFGSSD

Whiteshepherds said:


> Here's some quotes from Max.


Thank you for posting this


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## SFGSSD

Freestep said:


> [/FONT][/SIZE]
> 
> There is more than one working line. I think you are talking about sport breeding. Not all working lines are the same; some are better for sport, others are more suited for real work, some can do both.
> 
> While I agree with this statement for the most part, I do not agree when your dealing with the softer side of "work" in relation to a Service Dog for disabled people. These dogs need a strong handler for the most part, your typical SD handler (disabled person) is not a good match IMO for these working dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not "tugging" you anywhere, I don't know what bloodlines you are breeding now, since you won't tell us. I started this thread so that you could see how other people are doing it.




My next breeding is under serious consideration with this dog. The lines from the stud, is on the website. I have not “Done” what I aim to accomplish YET. The lines are not as important as the dogs and what they are really like is key here. If you personally meet these dogs you will understand a bit more.
Paper does not work, the dog does
German Shepherds, German Shepherd Puppies, German Shepherd Puppy For Sale, German Shepherd Breeder, German Shepherd Dogs, German Shepherd Stud Dog, West German German Shepherds, German Shepherds California, West Coast German Shepherds


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## LARHAGE

I like Barbara's dogs very much, and really like her male Zamp. I wish you success in your endeavors.


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## Freestep

> While I agree with this statement for the most part, I do not agree when your dealing with the softer side of "work" in relation to a Service Dog for disabled people. These dogs need a strong handler for the most part, your typical SD handler (disabled person) is not a good match IMO for these working dogs.


You'd be surprised!


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## Freestep

SFGSSD said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> My next breeding is under serious consideration with this dog. German Shepherds, German Shepherd Puppies, German Shepherd Puppy For Sale, German Shepherd Breeder, German Shepherd Dogs, German Shepherd Stud Dog, West German German Shepherds, German Shepherds California, West Coast German Shepherds


What is it about this dog that you like? Especially in regard to service work?


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## SFGSSD

Freestep said:


> What is it about this dog that you like? Especially in regard to service work?


It's not just Service work it is to better the breed on a whole in general. This stud and the dogs before him have legitimate working titles. (Easy to find in the working line but ...) Not only that, the pedigree shows great looks and structure as well. The dogs themselves are not over the top, but have great drive and solid balance that is on the upper end of the WGSL GSD. Capitalizing on the drivyer that have a consistent record in temperament and true workability while maintaining the show quality look is my priority at this time. When the drive and workability is closer to the working lines I will carefully select a working line dog bring more of the drive and stronger nerve into the line.


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## SFGSSD

LARHAGE said:


> I like Barbara's dogs very much, and really like her male Zamp. I wish you success in your endeavors.


Thank you Yes she has a sweet stud. I have been following Zamp and his predecessors and prodigy closely. Good dog


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## ILGHAUS

SFGSSD said:


> Thank you Yes she has a sweet stud. I have been following Zamp and his predecessors and prodigy closely. Good dog


Zamp is a good looking dog. Do you hope to breed him to your female Pebbles?


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## SFGSSD

ILGHAUS said:


> Zamp is a good looking dog. Do you hope to breed him to your female Pebbles?


Yes, I am strongly considering it for her next breeding. I hope to have the next generation of what I am looking for in her next breeding. Zamp is the front runner in this equation. Then it is the tedious task of finding the right combination moving forward to bring out more the desirable working traits bringing the dogs closer to the straight working line dogs while keeping that show quality look.


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