# How Can A...?



## Raizo

This is a comment made on Facebook by Command Control K9 (Protection Dogs - Guard Dogs - Security Dogs for sale), now I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but from what I've learned on this site, it's kind of unusual for a show-line GSD to be a Personal Protection Dog.



> Show line German shepherd, Santo CCK9 most recent delivery. After a very long 12-hour trip we finally made it to Burbank, California. Santo was everything that our client was expecting; He acclimated very well into such a busy household, Santo is one example of the top quality of personal protection dogs that we deliver to all of our clients. It is deliveries like this that make my job so rewarding, and to know that Santo will protect his family 100% as a true Protection Dog.


There was a picture included at the bottom of the post, but I didn't think I needed to post it. It was just of the dog being petted by the happy family/couple who bought him.

My question is this; can a show-line German Shepherd be a good Personal Protection Dog?

The comment came from a site my Dad seems to particularly like, and I wouldn't mind a little feedback from all you savvy people to help determine if they're worth going with. I've been getting a lot of good suggestions over the week as to other people we should go with, but I think just me alone is going to be a little hard to convince my Dad to look at some other sites. (He's seen a few that were suggested to me, but he doesn't really seem 'on board' with them quite yet) If you do find anything wrong with the site, please let me know! Again, trying to avoid as many mistakes as possible.


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## onyx'girl

Showlines tend to be softer and the temperament is not as predictable(generalizing) because they aren't bred to work but do the conformation type training. 
Some kennels do have showlines that are of "working" temperament and they are herding lines usually(Kirschental) and the temperament is a bit harder. 
I wouldn't discriminate that a showline will NOT be of Personal protection potential, it really depends on the breeding and lines. 
The odds of getting a dog for PP is greater with a good working line, however and the temperament is sound if you go with a knowledgable, reputable breeder.


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## selzer

My friend does German Showline dogs, and several are police dogs. Yes, they can _work_. (Just don't let the working line people hear about it -- they like to think they are the only ones who can.)


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## Raizo

onyx'girl said:


> Showlines tend to be softer and the temperament is not as predictable(generalizing) because they aren't bred to work but do the conformation type training.
> Some kennels do have showlines that are of "working" temperament and they are herding lines usually(Kirschental) and the temperament is a bit harder.
> I wouldn't discriminate that a showline will NOT be of Personal protection potential, it really depends on the breeding and lines.
> The odds of getting a dog for PP is greater with a good working line, however and the temperament is sound if you go with a knowledgable, reputable breeder.


Thanks for the insight! ^^ That's all I wanted to know. I've still got so much to learn about the different lines for GSDs. 



> My friend does German Showline dogs, and several are police dogs. Yes, they can work. (Just don't let the working line people hear about it -- they like to think they are the only ones who can.)


And thanks Selzer! It hadn't occurred to me that German Showline dogs could be police dogs too.


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## Elaine

In general, the showline dogs don't have as much drive as the workingline dogs, but there are exceptions. It wouldn't surprise me to find some showline dogs working for a living.


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## DFrost

My impression of a lot of "personal protection" dogs is; they are generally nervy, fear biters, trained with some serious avoidance. Just because a dog barks, displays aggression etc doesn't make it a dog that would protect someone when the fit hits the shan.

DFrost


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## DFrost

selzer said:


> My friend does German Showline dogs, and several are police dogs. Yes, they can _work_. (Just don't let the working line people hear about it -- they like to think they are the only ones who can.)


I saw a Labrador that would pass any police certification test that could be presented. I think most have seen the "police trained" JRT. That you tube was around quite a while. While it may on rare occasion happen, you don't see to many professional police trainers looking for showline dogs.

DFrost


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## robinhuerta

Yes...Show lines are capable & are being used by Police depts as Certified Police K9's. We have several that have been certified as such, and are currently working the streets of Illinois.
Is it the "norm"?...._it hasn't been for many years._ *Hopefully things are slowly changing.*
Robin


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## DFrost

robinhuerta said:


> Yes...Show lines are capable & are being used by Police depts as Certified Police K9's. We have several that have been certified as such, and are currently working the streets of Illinois.
> Is it the "norm"?...._it hasn't been for many years._ *Hopefully things are slowly changing.*
> Robin


It certainly isn't the norm. It isn't the norm in single purpose either. The lack of quality dogs in the U.S both working and show is the primary reason the majority of dogs used in law enforcement and the military are imported. 

DFrost


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## Sigurd's Mom

I believe so. When I visited my breeders house she had many photographs of police with K9's from their breeding program, all showline German Shepherds. Most (if not all) the police dogs I've seen have been showline. I believe they can be good personal protection dogs (my pups brother is being trained to be one for a family and is excelling).


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## selzer

And police thought GSDs weren't up to the task and started doing malinois. Now many are going back to GSDs. 

BTW, our little village here has a fat lab who has already had the ACL tear and surgery. But he is a certified police dog. And we have a malinois. When will they learn what is good for them? On the other hand, we had a shep that was shot to death, and another that left when his handler moved to a different department. Both of those sheps were German showline dogs.


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## Liesje

In my experience, it's not the drive that is the problem (I think many working lines are getting overloaded) but the nerve that is often the problem with show lines. I am a show line person that will always have a show line dog, so I'm not trying to be overly critical, that is just what I see more often than not.


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## robinhuerta

Yes Lies...*nerves* are the problem, not drives.
Certain normal or lower "drives", can be brought up & out, as long as the individual dog has solid, strong nerves.
We find (training with a group of people)..if the person's dog has strong/stable nerves...it can be taught to do pretty much, most exercises....even if it had been trained poorly from the beginning. 
The biggest problem many trainers & breeders have .. is not being able to tell weak nerves from poor training, or even weak nerves from GOOD training...
In the end....no matter "how good" the training is...a weak nerved dog will break down under stress or pressure.

OMG...I think I've said too much...


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## Liesje

I also see a lot of show line dogs that just seem to plateau and then taper off with maturity. As puppies they appear pretty solid, happy, willing to work and then they start to get hectic or soft or too handler sensitive or any number of problems that all go back to the genetics of their temperament that simply cannot be masked by training or judges or helpers doing favors.

Too many show line people just using a title as a means to get a V or VA rating and Koer. They insist this is not true and that their dogs "work" yet they do not train themselves or compete and won't share their scores. How can you really know what you are breeding and producing when you do not care for training, just getting a title? It's sad, but I can no longer take the show line breeder's word for it that the dog "works" because I see so many photos and videos advertising dogs that I would be embarrassed to share if it were me and my dog, yet it is supposed to impress people and the owner/breeder doesn't seem to know the difference.

(I'm saying "you" in a general context, not directed at anyone in this thread or anyone in particular.)

Anyway....*sigh*


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## Castlemaid

Liesje said:


> I also see a lot of show line dogs that just seem to plateau and then taper off with maturity. As puppies they appear pretty solid, happy, willing to work and then they start to get hectic or soft or too handler sensitive or any number of problems that all go back to the genetics of their temperament that simply cannot be masked by training or judges or helpers doing favors.


Liesje, I'm always so impressed with your insight and quick grasp of dog temperament. Last weekend we had a seminar here by one of Canada's top SchH Competitors/trainers, and he pretty much said the exact same thing. 

His club has some successful showline dogs (TeMar lines), and he is presently training a five month old half show/half working line pup. He brought his pup to the seminar with him. What an awesome little guy!! But he said pretty much word for word what you wrote. Many youngshow-line pups show great potential, but as they mature and more pressure is put on them, they fall apart.


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## Mrs.K

Castlemaid said:


> Liesje, I'm always so impressed with your insight and quick grasp of dog temperament. Last weekend we had a seminar here by one of Canada's top SchH Competitors/trainers, and he pretty much said the exact same thing.
> 
> His club has some successful showline dogs (TeMar lines), and he is presently training a five month old half show/half working line pup. He brought his pup to the seminar with him. What an awesome little guy!! But he said pretty much word for word what you wrote. Many youngshow-line pups show great potential, but as they mature and more pressure is put on them, they fall apart.


Yup, that is what is happening over here way too many times and then those dogs are sold into the world for a lot of money as the super-dog from champion lines... :help:


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## Liesje

Aw, thanks Lucia. Just calling it like it see it!


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## ladylaw203

I have trained and handled West German showlines as well as west german working and Czech lines. The bottom line is that it is tough to find dogs for the work, period. Most police k9s are dual purpose. Patrol and scent detection. Finding the high degree of retrieve/hunt drive is difficult. Fewer showline dogs have it as it is not usually a priority in breeding. It is more in the working lines. And, few folks really understand the drive and nerve that the dogs must have for real work. Sport is not an adequate eval. I have several imports from Slovakia. Very high retrieve drive,but I purchsed them for that reason. I am currently traiining 8 dogs for cadaver work overseas. All labs. just easier to find the drive.


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## codmaster

One question for breeders - why not go for both working ability and the correct conformation?

Is it even possible to hope for both in the same dog? Or at least to try?

I often get the impression (hopefully false) from many working line breeders that they don't really even care about conformation (the GSD standard!) as long as the dog can work and get a Sch title or similar.


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## Mrs.K

ladylaw203 said:


> I have trained and handled West German showlines as well as west german working and Czech lines. The bottom line is that it is tough to find dogs for the work, period. Most police k9s are dual purpose. Patrol and scent detection. Finding the high degree of retrieve/hunt drive is difficult. Fewer showline dogs have it as it is not usually a priority in breeding. It is more in the working lines. And, few folks really understand the drive and nerve that the dogs must have for real work. Sport is not an adequate eval. I have several imports from Slovakia. Very high retrieve drive,but I purchsed them for that reason. I am currently traiining 8 dogs for cadaver work overseas. All labs. just easier to find the drive.


It's pretty much the same in herding. Just because they have the herding instinct doesn't mean that they have the nerves to go through the training. Even many Schutzhund dogs lack that kind of nerves that is needed to go through with it and have to be trained on a different level to get the HGH.


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## Liesje

codmaster said:


> One question for breeders - why not go for both working ability and the correct conformation?
> 
> Is it even possible to hope for both in the same dog? Or at least to try?
> 
> I often get the impression (hopefully false) from many working line breeders that they don't really even care about conformation (the GSD standard!) as long as the dog can work and get a Sch title or similar.


Yes, there are plenty of working dogs with great conformation. I guess I've never gotten the impression from the breeders I've looked at that they don't care. Most if not all of them Koer their dogs (which requires a show card and show rating of G or better just to participate) just like the show line breeders do. They may not be breeding for the extreme type of the show line but the dog cannot function as a working dog if it is not correct in conformation.

One thing that bugs me is when people criticize the "extreme" show line conformation but then find examples of working line dogs with the same type and put them on a pedestal. I personally do not like the extremes, there are both show lines and working lines with conformation I like (the show lines tend to NOT be the winning dogs since those are more extreme). I don't like a working line dog looking like that or a show line dog looking like that. I guess I see almost the opposite of you, I see some working line breeders trying too much to get the show line type with their working line dogs.


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## DFrost

The majority of trainers for police departments etc, just don't care about pedigrees, confirmation etc. They want a dog that can work. One of the reasons the majority of dogs purchased by law enforcement trainers are imported is; most U.S. breeders don't want to hold onto a puppy for 18 months before selling it. Generally, LE trainers don't buy puppies. 

DFrost


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## codmaster

DFrost said:


> The majority of trainers for police departments etc, just don't care about pedigrees, confirmation etc. They want a dog that can work. One of the reasons the majority of dogs purchased by law enforcement trainers are imported is; most U.S. breeders don't want to hold onto a puppy for 18 months before selling it. Generally, LE trainers don't buy puppies.
> DFrost


Most trainers of any type would not care about pedigrees or conformation either. 

They are not breeders! But breeders should certainly care very much about these things as well as working ability and pedigree!


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## DFrost

codmaster said:


> Most trainers of any type would not care about pedigrees or conformation either.
> 
> They are not breeders! But breeders should certainly care very much about these things as well as working ability and pedigree!


 
It's been my experience, one of the first questions asked in the sport world is; what his bloodline or what kennel is out of, or more to the point post his pedigree. 

I would agree breeders should be concerned of bloodlines etc.

DFrost


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## NancyJ

I think for the price on that webpage the dog should come with a security guard who has a gun.....$65,000 for an elite family estate protection dog?......


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## DFrost

jocoyn said:


> I think for the price on that webpage the dog should come with a security guard who has a gun.....$65,000 for an elite family estate protection dog?......


 
chuckle, chuckle, 

DFrost


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