# Training them to be good with cats? And dogs?



## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Sorry to start two threads in one day. I know that's annoying, but I feel like this belonged in a different thread.

We got Godric on the 2nd, and he was 9.5 weeks old. He'll be exactly 11 weeks tomorrow (the 13th). So we've had him for 11 days. We don't know a whole lot about training, but I know that at his age, everything should be fun and positive, and building his confidence, and making sure he thinks he can do no wrong. So we almost never correct him - except with the cats. 

I already have one dog (Vincent) that we were very easy on when it came to the cats (because he's such a love bug, it never seemed like an issue), and he always seemed really good with them. He grew up with them. But now we have to find him a home because he's killed two of my cats, and can't figure out why he's in trouble. He's sorta dense. He realizes you're upset and he's in trouble, but he can't for the life of him figure out what he did. 

I know this is mostly my fault, and I should have trained him more when he was younger, but it's also because of stray cats that get in our backyard when we're asleep or gone. We find the dead cat hours or a day later, and how can you punish him then? So he had no consequences. Like I said, he's great with the cats INSIDE the house. If one accidentally gets outside, he thinks it's play time, and he kills it.  It's never vicious, and the skin is never broken, it's just chasing and playing way too rough. One cat slipped past us while we were carrying in groceries, and we had no idea. Afterward, we were being very careful going in or out the doors, and keeping track of the cats at all times, and were going to try to work on training with Vincent and cats. Then one of our door closes and even clicks, but it's not always completely closed. It's something with the latch or whatever. If it gets pushed from the inside, it'll pop open. Well, my other cat did that, and now he's dead too. It's all my fault, and I'm a bad mom. I was trying so hard to be careful and it wasn't hard enough. 

Even if I was very careful, what are the chances that I won't make another dumb mistake in the next 10 years? I can't keep doing this with him and the cats. I have to worry if my kitty accidentally gets outside because _my own dog_ will kill it? That's  .

I've contacted around 5 different trainers in CA that do behavior modification, and they said that they can try to work on it in various ways, but really, I'm just hedging my bets, and hoping that if the situation arises, he'll make the right choice, and that can't be guaranteed. So he really can't be trusted, and we have to find him a new home.  

It's horrible, and it breaks my  heart, because I love both him and my cats, and to choose between them isn't fair, but he's killed two! My MIL is fostering him for a while until we can find him a home, but she doesn't give him the affection and cuddles he wants, and he just doesn't understand. He's so sad to be left there. I am so worried about finding him a home, because she will only keep him temporarily, and I don't know anyone that will take him. He deserves better than a rescue, and the pound is out of the question. He needs tons of affection, since all he wants in life is to cuddle, and someone who will love him like he deserves. 

I've been reading horror stories about decent people that adopt the dog, and then something happens, and they leave the dog with a family member who ends up terribly horribly abusing the dog. The only way I can guarantee that he'll be good is if I know the person he's going to. But everyone has cats! So I don't know. I'm hoping my MIL falls in love with him. Even though she's kinda sucky and won't give him all of the attention he wants, he'll be an indoor dog, and we can visit all the time.


Anyway, I will not make the same mistake with another dog, and maybe I'm harsh about it, but I'm also trying to be fair. So the only correction Godric gets is with the cats. He's not allowed to chase them or bark at them or bite at them, which seems reasonable to me. 

I give him tons of praise and treats for being near them and being good, and not focusing on them, or when he's playing with his toys even though the cat is a foot away. If he gets focused on them or too rambunctious, I redirect him with a toy, or call him and let him chase me or something. But if he chases them and doesn't come when I call and ignores me, and tries to bite or jump on them, he gets a big "NO!" and a little whack on the butt. (This is the only time we've really even told him "no." He had no idea what it meant before.) He'll sit there and be sad for a second, and I'll either go get a toy and let him chase it, or I'll get the kitty and make him sit, and let him sniff the cat's butt, which is often why he was chasing it in the first place. When he acts good at such a close range, I praise him some more and let the cat go, and he lets it walk away, and either wanders off to do something, or stays to play with me, and I tell him what a good boy he is and treat him for leaving the cat alone. A couple of times, one of the cats has swished their tail, and he bit it, thinking it was a toy.

Is this wrong? We've only had him for a week and a half, and he seems to be doing really well with the cats in general. After a day or two, I've rarely had to correct him. It's praise and treats and socialization with the kitties more than anything. I care MUCH more about the lives of my kitties than I do about his drive or his future in schutzhund or protection. I know that we need to be bonding with him and not punishing him since he's new to us, and we spend lots of quality time with him and play and praise and treat him too.

I would love it if he knew the difference, and could love and play gently with our cats (like Victor does), but I'd rather he have zero interest in them than risk him hurting/killing them from playing too rough. 


The other question is about dogs. He's pretty fearless, and besides accidentally getting stepped on once, he's had almost entirely positive experiences with dogs. My mom's little dog growled at him once, and he flipped out, snarling and everything. Otheriwse it's all been fun and games, and none of the dogs are really dominant, and none have tried to dominate him.

He runs right up to strange large dogs (though he's only been around the ones I know are safe), with no hesitation. But when he wants to play, he barks and growls and will often try to bite the larger dog's lip or foot as he prances around them. It's fine because he's tiny, but what about when he's older? Can this become aggressive? What should I do to make sure it doesn't?

As I said, I don't want to kill any drive and am looking to try schutzhund and am intending to do personal protection training when he's older, BUT first and foremost, he is to be an all-around family dog and companion. He MUST at least get along with other dogs when he gets older, even if he doesn't play.

Besides socialization, what else can I do? What behaviors should I look out for, and how should I handle them?

Any opinions and info are great. Thank you so much for the help, you guys!

You're all awesome.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

at 11 weeks, he is gonna have the attention span of a gnat, and get into all kinds of trouble) 

Cats are just to darn tempting especially to puppies who want to play.

I have 5 indoor cats, the dogs are fine with them now. As puppies, yes they rather tormented the cats, and YES i would correct them for it..

I use a leave it,,and would rather do what your doing,,sit around with the puppy and the cat(s) in the vacinity with 'food', and toss treats to the puppy for leaving the cat alone..I certainly don't mind them playing 'nicely' with the cats, and well my cats can be tormenters of the dogs as well, so they kinda give as good as they get.

As for your dog killing outside cats, doesn't surprise me, cats RUN, cats RUNNING are to good to pass up, mine would most likley do the same thing if they had the chance (but I have a fenced yard so no strays get in)..

I'm sorry you feel you have to give up Vincent for killing your cats, and I'm sorry your cats were killed by him. But it doesn't surprise me, he isn't the only dog that would do just what he did, but then again, there are many more that have no problems with the kitties they live with being outside with them( tough dilemma..


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

as I was typing, Masi is slobbering all over her best buddy Boogie,,she jumps at the cat, boogie is lying on her back, grabbing masi by the face,,here's a pic of them I took a few weeks ago.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i have always had cats and dogs together, and never had any problems, all the pups were brought up with cats and always corrected if they stepped out of line with the cats. i think most dogs realize if brought up in close vacinity with the cats that they are part of the pack, not that they won't try to chase them or play with them once in a while, but they do know the difference between cats as part of the family and fair game stray cats running outside. 

i had a friend who's GSD's killed her cats............she always kept the dogs and cats separated when the dogs were pups (big mistake) the cats lived in the basement or outside never in the living space..........one day the cats somehow got up into the house from the basement, and the dog viewed them as strangers and prey went after them and killed them...........she learned a good lesson, unfortunately the hard way.........its sad and easy to feel quilty for an incidence like that, but i feel any dog/pup can be successfully brought up with cats within the pack, as far as outside, well alot of dogs will chase after anything that moves......best idea is try to cat proof your yard to prevent this type of thing, and in the meantime teaching self control and impulse control helps.................


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

That is a huge shame. Very sorry about the two cats and for Vincent. How awful.  My dogs have always gotten along fine with our cats. I think the most important thing is to not ever allow the outdoor chasing, especially since inside seems to be fine. It's asking a lot of a dog to always differentiate indoor and outdoor cat situations. I have always let my pups play with the cat, but supervised enough that if it gets a bit too intense, I can cool things down. I never separate them, because to me, that makes getting the cat more exciting. I've put this vid up before, but here it is again. This Max and Xavier. Max (GSD) is just about 3 1/2 mos old here. They used to play much more roughly, but get mellower every week as they learn each others boundaries.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

blackviolet said:


> I already have one dog (Vincent) that we were very easy on when it came to the cats (because he's such a love bug, it never seemed like an issue), and he always seemed really good with them. He grew up with them. But now we have to find him a home because he's killed two of my cats, and can't figure out why he's in trouble. He's sorta dense. He realizes you're upset and he's in trouble, but he can't for the life of him figure out what he did.
> 
> I know this is mostly my fault, and I should have trained him more when he was younger, but it's also because of stray cats that get in our backyard when we're asleep or gone. We find the dead cat hours or a day later, and how can you punish him then? So he had no consequences. Like I said, he's great with the cats INSIDE the house. If one accidentally gets outside, he thinks it's play time, and he kills it.  It's never vicious, and the skin is never broken, it's just chasing and playing way too rough.


 This is called prey drive. The dog doesn't understand he is in trouble, he is just reacting to your behavior. To him he has not done anything wrong - killing small furry things that run is normal behavior for a dog. He isn't dense, he's being a dog. And for a dog, it is extremely rewarding to catch prey.

It is very common for dogs with high prey drive to be ok with small animals in controlled or less stimulating environments, such as around the house but for them to look at the same small animals as prey when they see them running across the yard. I have heard this same exact thing time and again. There is no way to guarantee that your GSD won't have prey drive towards small animals running outside - GSDs are a breed who generally has a higher prey drive.

If I had cats and a dog who would kill them if they got outside, I would feel it was my responsibility to not allow the cats to get outside. Ever. Even if it meant that the cat's normal life had to change so that they were not allowed access to rooms with doors going out, especially when people would be coming and going. My oldest cat recently passed away and had never been outdoors unattended and had been outside on a leash just a handful of times.

Cats who are allowed outdoors are constantly at risk of being killed by other animals, getting into fights with other cats, getting hit by a car, being poisoned or being taken home by a well meaning person thinking they are a stray. If your cats are the sort who really enjoy the outdoors, you can build them an outdoor pen: 


















Build a SAFE Outdoor Enclosure for Your Cat!

If you have a fenced yard you can try cat proofing the outside of it to prevent cats from getting in. If you don't have a fenced yard, your dog probably shouldn't be outside unattended anyway. 

Cat-proofing fences:
How to Cat Proof a Garden Fence, Cat Proofing a Garden Fence


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

AgileGSD said:


> This is called prey drive. The dog doesn't understand he is in trouble, he is just reacting to your behavior. To him he has not done anything wrong - killing small furry things that run is normal behavior for a dog. He isn't dense, he's being a dog. And for a dog, it is extremely rewarding to catch prey.
> 
> It is very common for dogs with high prey drive to be ok with small animals in controlled or less stimulating environments, such as around the house but for them to look at the same small animals as prey when they see them running across the yard. I have heard this same exact thing time and again. There is no way to guarantee that your GSD won't have prey drive towards small animals running outside - GSDs are a breed who generally has a higher prey drive.
> 
> ...


I'm sort of with this right here. You have a working line GSD. He has prey drive. You are interested in SchH...you don't want to kill his prey drive because you're going to need it. 

I understand you don't want him to harm your cats and I don't think that there is a problem with teaching him to behave nicely in the house...however the yard might be a different story. Especially if he is out unsupervised. Over time obedience training will give you what you need to call him off of cats when you are outside with him, but if the instinct is there strongly enough, you probably won't have much luck teaching him self control when he is unsupervised. I know dogs with great manners when they are supervised, who will kill cats, chickens, rabbits, and baby cows or horses when they are unsupervised. I've had dogs that were great in the house with cats, outside cats were fair game.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

That is so sad to hear about the loss of your 2 cats and for having to decide to give up Vincent. 

I have 3 cats. I got my GSD when he was 11 weeks old and I only had 2 cats at that time and they hate my GSD, I got a kitten 3 months ago and the kitten and the GSD are the absolute best of friends. He is very, very gentle with the kitten and he will let her bite and jump all over him.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think the last three post made alot of sense...........

unsupervised a dog is capable of doing anything of his own free will..........they do have prey drive and need to be taught to control it..........simpley setting them up in situations with cats or other running prey and teaching self control, Obedience, and distraction methods............

in some of my Ob classes we had dogs that weren't good with cats, the trainer actually had a caged cat, who was pretty mellow ( i wasn't crazy about this, but its a good way to set them up, if the cat is mellow and used to dogs" they would leash the dog, and if the dog went aggressively tward the cage different methods were used to teach and them reward for avoidence behavior.........you can't control things you don't see, but you certainly can set them up and teach them right from wrong without using barbarick methods...........................

i also don't think there is anything wrong with your other dog, he is just doing what comes natural and hasn't been taught any different...................


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

When my GSD was a puppy I let him run and play with our two barn cats. However, his prey drive is so strong (and my barn cats torment him) I do not trust them together... ever. I feel it is impossible for me to train him (at 10 months old) not to kill the cats, and I have no doubt he will. Therefore, I _HAVE_ to have a strong recall. He has to be right 100% of the time. His recall is my plan B. Plan A is never being together.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think its like anything you have to use common sense knowing what you have for an animal and going accordingly........i have seen some of the strongest prey drive dogs absolutely adore the family cats......including one of my dogs RIP.........this dog of mine was over the top with all drives including prey drive, but he adored my cat, they slept together, he would go and put his paw on her once in a while, but he never even bothered her, she knew that and she also adored him, was very comfortable around him..........
they are all different in their heads, who knows what makes some of them tick, but i am still a firm believer that if they are taught right from puppyhood the proper way to be with the family cats there should be an issue..........

i also believe in keeping cats inside, there is just a million things that can harm them outside in the big world.............i take my cat out on a harness and leash so she can experience the big world under my supervision, but also be safe.......some people have fenced in places for their cats outside, whatever the set up, keeping them safe is a god idea vs letting them roam god knows where...................


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> i think its like anything you have to use common sense knowing what you have for an animal and going accordingly........i have seen some of the strongest prey drive dogs absolutely adore the family cats......including one of my dogs RIP.........this dog of mine was over the top with all drives including prey drive, but he adored my cat, they slept together, he would go and put his paw on her once in a while, but he never even bothered her, she knew that and she also adored him, was very comfortable around him..........
> they are all different in their heads, who knows what makes some of them tick, but i am still a firm believer that if they are taught right from puppyhood the proper way to be with the family cats there should be an issue..........
> 
> *i also believe in keeping cats inside, there is just a million things that can harm them outside in the big world.............i take my cat out on a harness and leash so she can experience the big world under my supervision, but also be safe.......some people have fenced in places for their cats outside, whatever the set up, keeping them safe is a god idea vs letting them roam god knows where...........*........


I also believe this. I will never allow my cats to go outdoors. There are too many loose dogs around here and too much traffic. 

My mom has 2 outside cats that are 10 and 8 years old, they are mother and daughter, we found the mom when she was a kitten and my mother does not believe in indoor cats so she remained outside. She had a litter of kittens when she was 2 years old and we kept one and then got both of them fixed. When it's cold outside they both go into the heated garage otherwise they live outdoors. My mom is very lucky that her cats dont go near the busy road and that they know when and where to hide if there are dogs, coyotes or racoons around. But not all outside cats are smart and aware. Most get eaten by other animals or hit by cars  I would never risk my cats lives, they will always be inside.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i think back in the days gone by people never thought twice about getting cats and letting them go outside, they'd disappear, and they would just go get more.....nowdays people are more aware about their pets roaming and the things that can happen to them......
Cats can live a perfectly happy life inside, i think the biggest reason people like them to go out is so they won't have to clean the cat box, which really isn't a big deal........My cat is of the understanding she only goes out when i take her out, which i started at a young age......she is just like a dog, when she see's me getting the harness and leash out she goes nuts, voices her excitment, and comes over and climbs on my leg...........pretty darn cute..............So, she has the best of both worlds and she is safe........


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> i think back in the days gone by people never thought twice about getting cats and letting them go outside, they'd disappear, and they would just go get more.....nowdays people are more aware about their pets roaming and the things that can happen to them......
> Cats can live a perfectly happy life inside, _*i think the biggest reason people like them to go out is so they won't have to clean the cat box, which really isn't a big deal........*_My cat is of the understanding she only goes out when i take her out, which i started at a young age......she is just like a dog, when she see's me getting the harness and leash out she goes nuts, voices her excitment, and comes over and climbs on my leg...........pretty darn cute..............So, she has the best of both worlds and she is safe........


This is not a big deal, however, I now have 3 cats and I can honestly tell you that I hate the litterbox, hate, hate, hate. I find myself cleaning the dang thing numerous times a day. My kitten loves pooping and not covering it up so it smells like poo when I get home for work or when I wake up in the morning 

With my dog I pick up poop every sunday and it stays outside so I dont smell his poo inside


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

with muliple cats it can become a chore................i only have one cat at the moment, and very easy litter box clean up once a day.........she's not a big eater or pooper, very dainty little nuggets, that don't smell........LOL


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> with muliple cats it can become a chore................*i only have one cat at the moment, and very easy litter box clean up once a day*.........she's not a big eater or pooper, very dainty little nuggets, that don't smell........LOL


I knew I should have stopped at one! Darn cats were just too cute to pass up. I love all of my cats to death and I dont regret any of them but I do regret having 3 cats


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

the most i ever had was 2 and that was enough, but your right if i were to come across or go looking for a kitten i would be sucked in.............one is enough with the tow dogs, it works very well.................


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> Cats can live a perfectly happy life inside, i think the biggest reason people like them to go out is so they won't have to clean the cat box, which really isn't a big .


Could be true in some cases, but it's pretty much generalizing all folks who have outdoor cats. I have two out door cats. We live in the country and need their help with rodents. Due to wildlife, I won't use poisons. They are perfectly happy, content, healthy cats. I can tell by the "gifts" they provide us nearly daily! :shocked: 

I have two sisters. They are from a feral colony and aren't your typical house cats. I adopted them from an organization that traps, alters and rehomes feral colonies. They require you to take three cats from the same colony, as they are a true colony. My third rescue was very old when they brought them out. She stayed on the porch and lived 6 months from the adoption date. Most of my 'horse' friends utilize the same organization. The cats I'm speaking of would be PTS - they aren't adoptable. 

I've had the sisters for four years. They are great cats - but you don't pick them up and kiss their noses. You have to be creative when it's time for shots and worming. 

They are the result of careless people who don't get their cats fixed and turn them out in the world. So I do agree with you on that point. But not all folks who have outdoor cats don't want to mess with litter boxes. Some of us are attempting to right a wrong that was created by others and the cats are the ones who suffer.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Aww. None of my other dogs have ever had an issue with the cats, even outside. I can't keep risking my cats' lives, because then it's my fault if they die. 

Ha, Masi is soooo cute. And look at those toes! I love that.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

, I typed that late last night, fell asleep at the comp and didn't hit submit, haha. I submitted it and then saw the other responses.

None of my other dogs have ever had an issue with the cats, even outside. They've all been properly socialized with the cats, they rub up against the dog's noses, curl up and sleep with the dogs, and even eat out of the came bowl at the same time, and no one bats an eyelash. I've never had any hesitation about leaving the cats and dogs alone together unsupervised. It was just a non-issue, and actually still is. My other GSD (after one correction) knew the difference between our cats and stray cats. Even if we found dead stray cats, he left our cats alone. (I have an acre of desert that only has chainlink fencing, and for whatever reason, cats occasionally come into our yard.) 

My cats are _indoor_ cats. Every so often, I will go outside and allow them (supervised) to run around the yard a little. I feel bad, because as a kid, my cat was always allowed outside whenever he wanted, and he loved it. So on occasion, I allow the cats a little supervised play time outside, and they love it. They come completely alive. And Vincent was always fine with them outside, but I was there. 

I don't just leave my dogs outside either, we close off the door from our bedroom to the house at night, so the dogs are in our bedroom. If you open the sliding glass door in our bedroom, there is a prefab room with a spa in it on the patio that has a swamp cooler and a doggy door to outside. So when we go to bed, our bedroom is closed off to the house, and open to the spa room with a way to get outside. So they come and go as they please at night. During the day, they're either in the house with us. If they want to go out, or if we're going to work, I put them out, but they still have access to those two other rooms, and we usually leave on the swamp cooler for them. In the wintertime, I close the sliding glass door of the bedroom, and just leave all of the house open. The cats love to sleep on our bed with us, but now that we're keeping the slider open, and they can get out, we don't let them in there. Which is why they keep trying to get into our room!

Basically, if I wanted to keep them in a room that didn't have a door to outside, they'd spend all day locked in a tiny bedroom.

I think part of it is something to do with Vincent thinking he "owns" the backyard and everything in it when we aren't there. For example, we got a new couch, and the old one was a hunk of crap, and going to the dump anyway, so my husband put it out back, to load it in the trailer later. This is the same couch that's been in the house for years, that never got chewed on, even when Vincent was a puppy. But after we put it outside, he DESTROYED it. 

I can't keep risking my cats' lives, because then it's my fault if they die.  Trying to be careful didn't work, accidents happen, the d*amn (you can't say that on this board?!) door didn't latch completely, and we're bound to slip up or not see them dart past our feet at some point within the next 10 years, you know? My husband and I were talking about the same thing, as in what if Godric grows up to be the same? Then we still have to find homes for the cats, and got rid of poor Vincent for nothing. I don't know if the breed matters that much in this or not, but Vincent is a lab/rott/pit mix. You can't quite see the intelligence in his eyes, and I know you know what I mean. You can often look at a dog, and know how smart he is by how expressive his face and ears are. But part of his lack of understanding might just be my failing at training. Ivan didn't grow up with cats or get socialized with them. About 4 years ago, we got a cat when he was a year and a half old. He was good with her in the house, but a bit too focused, like he focuses on a toy, so I had to keep an eye on him. 

Anyway, when she was still a baby, my husband let her slip out past him (they're always fighting to get outside) and we didn't know and went somewhere. We came home and pulled into the backyard, and they had been playing with her too rough. I thought she was dead, but it turns out she was just scared shitless, covered in drool and mud and piss and  , but no broken skin or broken bones, no internal bleeding or anything, and she was back to her normal self after she dried off from her bath, but he definitely would have killed her. Since we caught him in the act, we smacked him and yelled at him. You could see on his face that he knew he messed up. After that, he wouldn't even look sideways at the cats, and if they came up to give him love in the house, he'd get up and walk away. My husband slipped and somehow she got out at a later time, and he didn't touch her. But I am pretty positive that if Ivan had been raised with the cats growing up that he never would have done it. He was very intelligent and intuitive, and I have little doubt that he would know the difference.

Victor will lay down and if the cats try to play with him, he'll either stay laying there, but turn his head, or softly poke them with his nose and foot. No rough housing. He loves the cats.

My mom and my husband both say that it's easier to find a home for a dog than for cats, which is true. Also, it's not the cats' fault, and so why should they have to leave and be all stressed out and sad in a new place? Besides that, we have an INSANE rodent problem out here. Before we had cats, we did traps and poison, (which I was totally against, because of the dogs) and even so, the mice were seriously taking over. We got Luna and Goblin, and haven't seen a mouse in I don't know how long. My husband says we have to keep the cats, because he doesn't know what else to do about the mice.

Someone suggested one of those electric or whatever fences, where the cat wears a collar and gets buzzed if they go past it. Do they make those for cats? We could put it around all of the doors that lead to outside, maybe?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

its a hard situation, but your new puppy can be taught to except the cats in the family, i don't know about your other dog, sometimes it has to be taught from a young age............................

i do understand some cats are outside, and about the feral cat situation........its a personal choice whether they are in or out, but to me they are much safer in the house, and i get them for pets not to control the outside pest population.......


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> Sh*t, I typed that late last night, fell asleep at the comp and didn't hit submit, haha. I submitted it and then saw the other responses.
> 
> None of my other dogs have ever had an issue with the cats, even outside. They've all been properly socialized with the cats, they rub up against the dog's noses, curl up and sleep with the dogs, and even eat out of the came bowl at the same time, and no one bats an eyelash. I've never had any hesitation about leaving the cats and dogs alone together unsupervised. It was just a non-issue, and actually still is. My other GSD (after one correction) knew the difference between our cats and stray cats. Even if we found dead stray cats, he left our cats alone. (I have an acre of desert that only has chainlink fencing, and for whatever reason, cats occasionally come into our yard.)
> 
> ...


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

I am gonna go out on a limb and suggest getting a new home for the cats
I love cats, but GSD as a breed are noted cat eaters esp when they are running around.
You will get rid of Vincent but odds are high the new one will grow to chase cats and eat them.
as far as cats getting into your yard and Vincent killing those..eventually darwins theory will work and the cats will stop doing that

You can train them to not do that stuff when you are around, but very hard to train them to not do it when you arent around


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

chocolat said:


> I am gonna go out on a limb and suggest getting a new home for the cats
> *I love cats, but GSD as a breed are noted cat eaters esp when they are running around.*
> *You will get rid of Vincent but odds are high the new one will grow to chase cats and eat them.*
> as far as cats getting into your yard and Vincent killing those..eventually darwins theory will work and the cats will stop doing that
> ...


That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. I have a GSD and 3 cats and he is best friends with the kitten. He is very gentle with her. They lay together and play together. My friends male GSD that is 6 months older than my GSD is also good with cats, they have 2.


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## chocolat (May 23, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> That is the silliest thing I have ever heard. I have a GSD and 3 cats and he is best friends with the kitten. He is very gentle with her. They lay together and play together. My friends male GSD that is 6 months older than my GSD is also good with cats, they have 2.


 
how many shepherds and other breeds of dogs have you worked with and owned? How many vet hospitals have you worked in and seen what damage large dogs can and will do to small dogs and cats? 
exactly how old is your shepherd now? over 2 yrs old yet?
I never said ALL shepherds eat cats. I own 3 shepherds none have eaten a cat, but I have enough exp working with big dogs and shepherds to know what they often can and will do as they mature


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

chocolat said:


> how many shepherds and other breeds of dogs have you worked with and owned? How many vet hospitals have you worked in and seen what damage large dogs can and will do to small dogs and cats?
> exactly how old is your shepherd now? over 2 yrs old yet?
> I never said ALL shepherds eat cats. I own 3 shepherds none have eaten a cat, but I have enough exp working with big dogs and shepherds to know what they often can and will do as they mature


I raised 2 Lab/Chow/Rott/Border Collie mixes with no problems with cats, I grew up with a German Shepherd/Husky mix that lived with 2 cats and had zero problems. 

No, my GSD is 16 months old. Why would it matter if he were 2 years old?

I still find your post ridiculous.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Any breed of dog can have a problem with small dogs or cats. 

When I read all of the GSD books I own they said GSD's can get along great with other pets if introduced at a young age and socialized properly.

Saying that a puppy is going to grow up and kill cats is ridiculous.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


>


You make that face because I spanked him and yelled at him?
What are you supposed to do when you catch your dog mauling your cat?




LaRen616 said:


> Any breed of dog can have a problem with small dogs or cats.
> 
> When I read all of the GSD books I own they said GSD's can get along great with other pets if introduced at a young age and socialized properly.
> 
> Saying that a puppy is going to grow up and kill cats is ridiculous.


Yeah, we're hoping that Godric understands a little better that the cats are family - whether inside or outside - and when he's 100% with them in the house (and he's doing VERY well), we will work the cats on a leash and harness with him outside, and treat and praise him for being good and ignoring them, just so that he gets used to seeing them out there, just in case.

I've talked to my husband about making a giant cat pen outside of the back door, so if they do run out past us, they're contained. But what about the front door?


Do you guys have any ideas about training Vincent? Is there any way that we can work on this with him, behaviorally? I know that prey drive is instinct, but if he isn't dense, he should be able to learn not to give chase, right? At least to cats. I know they do a rattlesnake class for dogs, and teach them to avoid snakes somehow. Can't they do the same with kitties?


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> You make that face because I spanked him and yelled at him?
> What are you supposed to do when you catch your dog mauling your cat?


I never physically hit my dog. I make a loud noise and send him to his crate.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I had never physically hit Ivan before that. H*ll (can't say that on here, either? Seriously?), I had never even _yelled_ at Ivan before that. But when my cat was going to be dead in a minute, that sure got him realizing he was in the biggest trouble ever. It's not like I hit him to hurt him, but I definitely hurt his feelings.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> I had never physically hit Ivan before that. H*ll (can't say that on here, either? Seriously?), I had never even _yelled_ at Ivan before that. But when my cat was going to be dead in a minute, that sure got him realizing he was in the biggest trouble ever. It's not like I hit him to hurt him, but I definitely hurt his feelings.


Well I have never been in that situation before so maybe I would have hit Sinister too. 

You can train the puppy with the "Leave it command."


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

GSDs were never meant to be cat killers.
Regardless of what anyone says, THAT much prey drive is grossly inappropriate for this breed. 









(sorry for the crappy quality, its hard to scan this book)










If raised properly, a GSD should know that cats are off-limits.

For you blackviolet, I recommend patients. Puppies find cats absolutely fascinating.

Mulder certainly got a lot of entertainment from mine... but a few good swipes on the nose (from them!) and consitent work on the "leave it" command pay off in the end. 

And, IMO, a smart dog can recognize his family (which is what the cat should become, given enough time) regardless of what its doing or where it is.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

The Leave It dog obedience training command is useful and easy to teach to your puppy


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

I've raised many large breed "aggressive" type high drive dogs and every one of them grew up with at least one cat from 8 weeks old or so. Zero problems, ever.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

GSDs can NOT get along with cats...

These first two vids are sooo sweet and cute:









This big boy is soooo tolerant, it's amazing:


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

ok, i usually do not condon this method, and you want to get the facts before doing it, but because Vincent has already got this chasing and killing behavior, you might want to look into a shock collar, and learn how to appropriately use it.........this way you can set him up in situations with running prey, etc..........i would never do this normally, but since its chasing and killing behvior you gotta catch them in the act or set them up................they are used on hunting dogs with great success........but, caution is, make sure you get the proper guidence on how to use it or it could backfire.......


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> ok, i usually do not condon this method, and you want to get the facts before doing it, but because Vincent has already got this chasing and killing behavior, you might want to look into a shock collar, and learn how to appropriately use it.........this way you can set him up in situations with running prey, etc..........i would never do this normally, but since its chasing and killing behvior you gotta catch them in the act or set them up................they are used on hunting dogs with great success........but, caution is, make sure you get the proper guidence on how to use it or it could backfire.......


I don't think that's such a bad idea. Chasing and killing is going to be a problem for Vincent most places he might end up anyway. Why not give an e-collar a try?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

The other thing you could consider is making a "safe zone" in the house, by using an electronic collar with a transmitter pod. They usually are adjustable and can cover an area of like 5-25 feet, depending on how big you want the safe zone to be. That way, you can be reasonably sure about the cats safety even if you aren't able to watch all the time.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i agree, i think at this point its the only thing that would work, but again as long as its used properly.............you have total control over him if he starts running after something with that e-collar and he will get the picture soon enough.......


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

The issue here is not if a GSD can get along with cats in the home. IME chances are pretty good that puppy GSDs will accept cats in the home especially with supervision and training. The issue comes into play when the cats are outdoors and start to look like prey. At that point it doesn't matter if the cat is a stray that got in the yard or the dog's best buddy. 

This is one of those times that human emotion and dog behavior just don't mesh well. We (in general) love dogs like they are part of the family, often to a point where when they act like dogs it shocks us and makes us feel betrayed. We tend to want dogs to act like Disney characters or like Lassie - have only an excess of all the good dog traits and never, ever bite someone who isn't an obvious bad guy. Lassie would certainly never kill a cat that was a part of her family but real life dogs will and sadly, often do in the wrong situation. 

Killing a cat does not require "grossly inappropriate" prey drive, to the dog it is no different than killing a rabbit or squirrel. Both of my GSDs have killed their fair share rabbits and squirrels and I don't think either could be accused of having "grossly inappropriate" prey drive. Predatory behavior is part of what makes a dog a dog and is very natural for them. Some breeds have been bred for a lower or modified prey drive. GSDs are not one of those breeds. GSDs have been selected to retain prey drive because it is useful for the jobs they have been selected for.

When I worked at doggy daycare, a GSD regular that was really a very laid back boy attacked a smaller dog out of the blue. The dogs were out running in the yard and the GSD caught sight of smaller dog on the opposite side of the yard, ran off after him and grabbed him. Both dogs knew each other, were regulars and had no prior issues. For whatever reason, on that day in that situation something about the smaller dog racing across the yard triggered a predatory response in the GSD. There was another close call at the daycare with a very nicely bred working GSD pup who had been going to daycare since she was 9 weeks old. At about 6 months, she grabbed a small Poodle that was racing by her and picked it up off the ground. Luckily, an attendant happened to be within arm's length and rescued the Poodle. My own Amline male GSD became predatory at daycare once towards a mini Schnauzer but the dog was too fat for him to get off the ground and I was able to call him off pretty quickly. The only other breeds that attended regularly and showed that much of a tendency towards predatory issues with smaller dogs were Greyhounds and Sibes.

To the OP, have you looked at the outdoor cat enclosure pictures I posted? Such a set up is a great way to allow cats to be outside and keep them safe. If your cats had to be locked in a bedroom while no one was home or when guests were around, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy to start with but they would adjust. You can also try behavior modification with them to teach them to stay away from the doors. Practice opening the door and when a cat tries to make a run for it, squirt them with a large "supersoaker" style water gun. You can also look into Scatmats (stay away, Stay Away, STAY AWAY, cat stay away, Cat Stay Away, CAT STAY AWAY, 742200, cat air repeller) or Sat Away (stay away, Stay Away, STAY AWAY, cat stay away, Cat Stay Away, CAT STAY AWAY, 742200, cat air repeller) as a backup. 

If you continue to just accept that the cats will run out the door at times so the dogs need to learn to not kill them, you are setting yourself up for further heartbreak. Even if you find a new home for Vincent, there is nothing to say that your GSD won't grow up to have a similar issue when unattended outdoors with the cats. Rehoming the cats might be the best thing for them if you are unable or unwilling to modify their environment and try behavior modification.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> Killing a cat does not require "grossly inappropriate" prey drive, to the dog it is no different than killing a rabbit or squirrel. Both of my GSDs have killed their fair share rabbits and squirrels and I don't think either could be accused of having "grossly inappropriate" prey drive. Predatory behavior is part of what makes a dog a dog and is very natural for them. Some breeds have been bred for a lower or modified prey drive. GSDs are not one of those breeds. GSDs have been selected to retain prey drive because it is useful for the jobs they have been selected for.


Ah, so von Stephanitz WAS just a crazy old fool after all?
Never mind that that's his picture I posted, or that he believed the only reason this breed would become a cat killer was if it was encouraged by its owner.

Poor man just keeps a rollin', doesn't he?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

the way i see it if a dog starts chasing small prey and killing it, they are capable of chasing bigger prey such as deer or whatever they see........maybe its instinct, but it can be controlled through Obedience and teaching self control, after all isn't that why we spend so much time in Obedience with our dogs? so, if a situation arises we have control? its not appropriate and its against the law for dogs to run deer, and you can bet if a dog is running any animals if deer are around that will be next...........

as far as the OP's issue with her dog, it appears its gone to far the dog has already killed her cats, a notch on his belt, i doubt Obedience will work at this point, unless they are willing to spend ALOT of time and money, and at that it still may not be enough......at this point as said the e-collar may be the only way, or keep the dog contained or the cats contained and supervised at all tmes........


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

atravis said:


> Ah, so von Stephanitz WAS just a crazy old fool after all?
> Never mind that that's his picture I posted, or that he believed the only reason this breed would become a cat killer was if it was encouraged by its owner.


 Our knowledge of dog behavior has come a long, long way since his time. A dog who kills cats out of prey drive might in other situation be perfectly friendly with cats.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

"An older dog with regard and treat the other domestic animals in the farmyard as the property of his master ... What is true of poultry is also true of rabbits and and similar small fry"

These are loose animals in a farm setting. If prey was ever going to present itself, this would be the situation.

And yet he still held these dogs to a higher standard.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> Our knowledge of dog behavior has come a long, long way since his time. A dog who kills cats out of prey drive might in other situation be perfectly friendly with cats.


I agree. To Hondo, they are like throwing the kong over and over and over and not letting him fetch it. The cats drive him nuts. I can (and do) have Hondo in a sit/down stay and the cats can (and do) come up to him (us). He'll stay. But if we are walking out of the barn/house and the cat takes off running, he'll give chase. I am going to assume that if he ever catches the cat he isn't going to say "Tag, your it".


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

What good is a farm dog that chases down and kills the farmer's chickens and ducks, or chases the neighbor's barn cat and gets himself shot?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

good point! exactly what i last posted.............Obedience, training, etc, etc.........


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

That assumes you are actually there to issue a command.

A true farmer doesn't sit around all day watching his dogs.
So what, then, is he supposed to expect from them?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

atravis said:


> What good is a farm dog that chases down and kills the farmer's chickens and ducks, or chases the neighbor's barn cat and gets himself shot?


 We're not talking about farm dogs though. We're talking about high drive dogs living in modern situations where they are generally not "worked" much. In the time of GSDs being a tending breed, the human and dog were together day in and day out doing "chores", moving stock, keeping stock where they should be. Shepherds in that time had it rough, with no fences and huge flocks. In such a situation, it would be unlikely that the dogs would have much interest in chasing any sort of prey because they were focused on their "job" and their owner was generally not far away.

Saying that GSDs only ever show prey drive in the appropriate situation and never in an inappropriate (as decided by humans) situation is getting back to having Lassie-like expectations of dogs. Inexperienced herding breed dogs sometimes injure or even kill stock if left unattended with it, even if they have outstanding working temperaments. Not because of a flaw in their temperament but because they are dogs with prey drive, unattended with animals behaving like prey.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i dunno, i just find it hard to believe dogs will just revert to their wild ancester ways if the owners isn't around............if that was true my cat would have been dead by now.........................


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Debbie, 
I'm actually agreeing with you, lol
My point was that the dogs had to be trustworthy even when the farmer _wasn't_ around.

Agile,
And no one questions why a dog with enough prey drive that he will actually kill stock is inappropriate? Granted young dogs are generally idiots, but a dog not mindlessly working off of prey wouldn't do such a thing. Instinct does have its place, but this is a thinking breed, and killing a stock animal out of prey is NOT thinking.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Lex,
i amj with you...............

there is something wrong if a herding animal starts killing the stock...........


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

debbiebrown said:


> i dunno, i just find it hard to believe dogs will just revert to their wild ancester ways if the owners isn't around............if that was true my cat would have been dead by now.........................


 Cats familiar with the family dogs are less likely to act like prey when hanging out around the house. Still, over the years I've heard too many first hand stories to count of how a dog was always so good with the family cat...until one day the owner came home to a dead cat. Obviously that isn't the case in all or even most dog-cat households but it isn't all that uncommon either. Do a google search on "My Dog Killed My Cat" and you'll find page after page of sad stories.



atravis said:


> And no one questions why a dog with enough prey drive that he will actually kill stock is inappropriate? Granted young dogs are generally idiots, but a dog not mindlessly working off of prey wouldn't do such a thing. Instinct does have its place, but this is a thinking breed, and killing a stock animal out of prey is NOT thinking.


 The herding trainers I have talked to have all strongly warned against leaving untrained, driven dogs loose with stock unsupervised because of the risk of the dog purposely or accidentally injuring the stock. 

_"Since they're good herding dogs, I can let my Border Collie run loose around my livestock when I'm not there, and he won't hurt them, right? _
This is not the case at all. Herding instinct is a modified prey drive. An unsupervised Border Collie will chase, injure, and kill livestock just like any other dog, especially (but not only) if he's untrained " http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeds/bordercollies.html



​


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

atravis said:


> If raised properly, a GSD should know that cats are off-limits.
> 
> For you blackviolet, I recommend patience. Puppies find cats absolutely fascinating.
> 
> ...


This is true, and Ivan learned his lesson quickly, although he did make a mistake, but that was because he was already older, and had never been around a cat ever before. This is why I'm not as worried about Godric. But you're talking about GSD's and/or a "smart dog". This is why I said that Vincent can be dense. Because he doesn't seem to get the idea that they're family, and running doesn't mean you can kill them. (And he's not a GSD, btw).

In my original post, I should have asked, how do I modify the behavior of Vincent, and try to prevent this behavior in Godric?




AgileGSD said:


> To the OP, have you looked at the outdoor cat enclosure pictures I posted? Such a set up is a great way to allow cats to be outside and keep them safe. If your cats had to be locked in a bedroom while no one was home or when guests were around, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy to start with but they would adjust. You can also try behavior modification with them to teach them to stay away from the doors. Practice opening the door and when a cat tries to make a run for it, squirt them with a large "supersoaker" style water gun. You can also look into Scatmats (stay away, Stay Away, STAY AWAY, cat stay away, Cat Stay Away, CAT STAY AWAY, 742200, cat air repeller) or Sat Away (stay away, Stay Away, STAY AWAY, cat stay away, Cat Stay Away, CAT STAY AWAY, 742200, cat air repeller) as a backup.
> 
> If you continue to just accept that the cats will run out the door at times so the dogs need to learn to not kill them, you are setting yourself up for further heartbreak. Even if you find a new home for Vincent, there is nothing to say that your GSD won't grow up to have a similar issue when unattended outdoors with the cats. Rehoming the cats might be the best thing for them if you are unable or unwilling to modify their environment and try behavior modification.


We love both our dogs and our cats, and we've been visiting Vincent every day, and I cry every time we have to leave him and he's so disappointed that he's not getting in the car with us. But I also cry every time I think of my kitties. They were such sweethearts, and only a year old, and they died in pain because of him (and because of us). It's a sh*tty situation, and it makes me cry just typing about it. 

I definitely looked at the cat enclosures, and showed them to my husband and we're talking about how to do it and other ways we can modify things to make certain they can't get out, but also ways to work on Vincent. The squirt gun and training the cats about the door is a great idea. Those cat spray cans are a good idea too, if I can figure out where to place them so that they don't just get knocked over or something. Maybe attach them to the wall by the door jam?

I also found this:
http://www.loucastle.com/critter.htm 


Thank you guys for all of the tips and advice and info. Keep it coming! It all helps. I need all of the ideas and opinions I can get, both for Vincent and for Godric.


I have pics of Vincent, Victor and Godric on my albums on here. I don't have any good pics of Lestat on my computer, but here are a couple of pics I had on my phone of Holly, one of the best cats we've ever had. (Vincent killed Holly and Lestat.)





















Sleeping together:


__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

My cats drink out of my GSD's water bowl and he has zero problems with it. While he is eating his food the kitten will sneak in and steal some of his kibble and he lets her.

This morning I gave my dog a dental doggy bone and he went and layed in his crate with it and the kitten followed him in it and I took pictures of her in the crate with him. Once I have enough pictures of them together I'll post them on here for you.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

atravis said:


> What good is a farm dog that chases down and kills the farmer's chickens and ducks, or chases the neighbor's barn cat and gets himself shot?


I wonder if the difference is that a good farm dog is raised outside with the farmer's livestock.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

blackviolet said:


> This is true, and Ivan learned his lesson quickly, although he did make a mistake, but that was because he was already older, and had never been around a cat ever before. This is why I'm not as worried about Godric. But you're talking about GSD's and/or a "smart dog". This is why I said that Vincent can be dense. Because he doesn't seem to get the idea that they're family, and running doesn't mean you can kill them. (And he's not a GSD, btw).


 This just is not always true. Behavior wise, it really isn't about "smart" vs. "dumb" dogs it's about predatory instinct. The article below talks about dog-dog predatory aggression but the same applies to cats.

"Predatory drift happens when normal play suddenly “drifts” over the line and the dog’s predatory instincts kick in and take over. At that moment, if something doesn’t happen to stop the behavior, it can turn ugly. Predatory drift is what happened in the cases I wrote about in my last two columns, in which dogs were either badly mauled or killed by otherwise perfectly nice, normal dogs. ... The attacking dogs are not bad dogs. They are simply dogs. It isn’t a conscious reaction; it’s visceral and instinctive. " Dog play behavior and "predatory drift" | Gail Fisher, All Dogs Gym & Inn | Dog, Dogs,

And another article on the same subject:
What is Predatory Drift? - Go Dog Training | Dog Time - Dog Blog Network

I would also recommend this book, as it will help you immednely in understanding hard-wired dog behavior:
Welcome to Dogwise.com

A major flaw in the reaosning that "GSDs are super smart and known to never hurt animals in their family" is that GSDs are notorius for same-sex aggression towards other same-sex dogs in the family. This can led to serious, sometimes fatal fights between two dogs who sometimes have lived together without a problem for years. GSDs *are* really great dogs but they are still dogs.




blackviolet said:


> I definitely looked at the cat enclosures, and showed them to my husband and we're talking about how to do it and other ways we can modify things to make certain they can't get out, but also ways to work on Vincent. The squirt gun and training the cats about the door is a great idea. Those cat spray cans are a good idea too, if I can figure out where to place them so that they don't just get knocked over or something. Maybe attach them to the wall by the door jam?


 That could possibly work. There are also the textured mats that cats supposedly don't like to walk on. You could temporarily try those in front of the doors on the inside as a sort of cat "unwelcome mat". 



blackviolet said:


> I also found this:
> LOU CASTLE - CRITTERING AND AGGRESSION


 The author is a member here. But I have to say that if you don't know how to properly use an e-collar, don't try this one at home. E-collars can certainly be effective for somethings but well meaning owners can really screw their dogs up if they are used improperly. 

Check out this article for good ideas for teaching dogs and cats to live peacefully together:
Pit Bull Rescue Central

And another really good one on rehabbing cat-aggressive dogs:
http://www.pbrc.net/training_cats.html


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> This just is not always true. Behavior wise, it really isn't about "smart" vs. "dumb" dogs it's about predatory instinct.
> 
> A major flaw in the reaosning that "GSDs are super smart and known to never hurt animals in their family" is that GSDs are notorius for same-sex aggression towards other same-sex dogs in the family. This can led to serious, sometimes fatal fights between two dogs who sometimes have lived together without a problem for years. GSDs *are* really great dogs but they are still dogs.


First of all, please let me state for the record that I do not feel any dog who chases a cat is DUMB.

For my purposes, when I said a "smart dog", should have rephrased to a "thinking dog".

As AGAIN, a dog working in prey is not thinking. He is acting off of instinct. 

GSDs are a THINKING breed, and any dog within this breed who would chase down and kill a cat, ESPECIALLY one that he knows (don't be foolish to think the dog cannot recognize the cat's scent, regardless of what it is doing) is not a "correct" GSD. Not as von Stephanitz saw it, and certainly not as the breed should be.

And I'd like to know where this "notorious" tendency towards SSA is coming from? Many people on this board alone keep duplicates of the same sex together peacefully. 

Furthermore, if anything, I'd say GSD tend towards inter-bitch aggression before I would label the breed SSA (which I do not, and never have). Which is besides the point anyway, as dog aggression and prey drive are NOT mutually inclusive.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

opcorn:

What exactly was the original question? 

How to train a puppy to be good with cats and other dogs? Was that it?

Socialization...supervision...training...socialization...supervision....training...

That would be my answer.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm about to go read those articles. I'm not saying that Vincent is dense just because of this, it's other small things too, but again, it could just be that *I* am lacking as a trainer. I do realize that this is hugely instinct, but having had dogs and cats all of my life with only that one incident with Ivan, who had never been properly socialized, every other dog that grew up with our cats has been 100% trustworthy with them, indoors or out, so I'm still in shock. How could every other dog have been fine, and he isn't? It's my fault for not recognizing that the same methods don't always work on the same dogs, and that some dogs need more intensive work in these areas as puppies and stuff.

I wouldn't use an e-collar by myself.

My husband and I are still trying to figure out what to do. I'm thinking it's the dog's fault, the cat's fault and our fault, so we _all_ need to work on it. A three-prong approach.  If we modify the house, and build a cat enclosure off the porch, then even if they accidentally get out, they can't go anywhere, and the dogs can't get to them, plus the kitties will be super happy to sorta be outside when we intentionally put them in the enclosure. Then it's just the front door we have to keep an eye on, which cuts down on any accidents, and we can use a mat or an air sprayer and a squirt gun to help train and modify the cats' behavior. At the same time, we'll take Vincent to training and work on obedience and behavior modification. 

That's what I'm leaning towards. Then I can keep my dog AND my kitties. Now I just have to make sure my husband thinks it will work, and get him to build the cat enclosure. He does bring up a valid point and says, "Well, if it _doesn't_ work, they're DEAD. You know that, right?"  So the only totally safe thing seems to be to find a home for the cats. I don't know for sure what to do.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Since Vincent isn't a GSD, should we still care? Just kidding.....


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

Relayer said:


> Since Vincent isn't a GSD, should we still care? Just kidding.....


Naughty :nono:


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

LaRen616 said:


> Naughty :nono:


I know... sometimes I just can't help myself. :wild:


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I am just curious how the OP knew that the older dog had in fact killed the cats. If the cats were outside then any number of things could have caused their deaths like other cats, or Raccoons. Even if the cat was just injured, it could have died in the days before you found it and was then fed on my wild animals. 

I'm not saying he isn't capable of killing a cat, as many dogs are, but unless I saw my dog kill a cat, or it was killed inside the house with no other realistic explanation, than I wouldn't rehome a dog just on the premise that he may have harmed them. 

Honestly the best way to teach a dog not to kill a cat (or play too rough) is by setting both cat and dog up for success. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. 

A few things I thought of to help (especially since you are starting a new with a puppy).

1. Cats need a safe place in the house from the dogs. This is usually set up by use of a cat door, or a sturdy baby gate closing off a room, but still granting access to a cat. They also need safe places throughout the house that are higher than a dog would be able to reach or out of the reach. Very sturdy cat trees, High dressers, or any other tall furniture. 

2. The dog needs a good leave it command and must be well enough that when a cat runs from the room, it doesn't follow. 

3. The cat needs to not be allowed outside ever! (this doesn't include supervised on leash visits outside, or time in an enclosure outside)

4. The dog is not allowed outside unsupervised if a cat does accidentally escape from the house. 

5. The cat and dog are not allowed to be together unsupervised, So when you leave or go to bed, the cat is allowed a certain part of the house and the dog must remain in another part of the house.


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## LaRen616 (Mar 4, 2010)

GSDSunshine said:


> I am just curious how the OP knew that the older dog had in fact killed the cats. If the cats were outside then any number of things could have caused their deaths like other cats, or Raccoons. Even if the cat was just injured, it could have died in the days before you found it and was then fed on my wild animals.
> 
> I'm not saying he isn't capable of killing a cat, as many dogs are, but unless I saw my dog kill a cat, or it was killed inside the house with no other realistic explanation, than I wouldn't rehome a dog just on the premise that he may have harmed them.
> 
> ...


Great Ideas! :thumbup:


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

GSDSunshine said:


> I am just curious how the OP knew that the older dog had in fact killed the cats. If the cats were outside then any number of things could have caused their deaths like other cats, or Raccoons. Even if the cat was just injured, it could have died in the days before you found it and was then fed on my wild animals.
> 
> I'm not saying he isn't capable of killing a cat, as many dogs are, but unless I saw my dog kill a cat, or it was killed inside the house with no other realistic explanation, than I wouldn't rehome a dog just on the premise that he may have harmed them.
> 
> ...


 
My dogs will not allow strange dogs into our yard, and I live in the desert, so there are no raccoons or anything else that would be in my backyard that could kill the cats. I once found Vincent still playing with a dead cat (this was after he had already killed my cat). It's really unfeasible for it to have been anything else that killed the cats.


All of those things are generally done in our house. The cats have a lot of high places, and even a ledge that runs the whole length of the livingroom, but they almost always choose to be on the couch or on the floor near the dogs. They love the dogs (especially Victor).

Now that it's summertime, and since he had killed one of our babies, we've been keeping them in separate parts of the house when we go to bed and when we aren't home. Before this, and in the wintertime, they've always shared the whole house when we go to bed. 

I never taught the "leave it" command, but the dogs *never* chase the cats in the house, even if the cats are playing and going wild and running everywhere. _The dogs are totally aloof to the cats_ running and playing, unless a cat toy rolls past them, and then they pick up the jingle ball or fake mouse and steal it. But that's it. It's never even been _close_ to an issue. (I know the "leave it" command is useful for other things as well, but we just say, "Uhh-uhh!" and the dogs "leave it" to whatever it may be, so same thing, but I've never had to use it pertaining to the cats.)

But then again, they rarely play in the house at all. If they want to play, they go outside, and I don't recall ever meaning to teach them that, but maybe we did without really intending to, or maybe that's just what they decided, since there's a lot more room to run and have fun outside, I don't know.

If a cat runs past us and we know it, we *immediately* go out and get him or her. But every now and then they dart so quickly while our eyes are averted, it's like a disappearing act (vanishing into thin air), and we have no idea that they got out.

I've allowed the cats outside one or two at a time, _supervised_, on a couple of occasions, sometimes with the dogs, sometimes without the dogs, and also never had a problem. Vincent was much more interested in them when they were outside, and I should have taken that as a signal, but I kinda thought it was just like the, "What is going on here? They're never out here!" surprised type of interest, because even outside, there were never any problems or issues. Besides sniffing them a lot and watching to see what they're up to, Vincent didn't do anything weird or bad while they were outside.

I mean, many of the precautions and suggestions and socializations are things that we've DONE. And things have still gone awry. 

I do think that part of it is Vincent's possession of the yard, his viewing it and everything in it as HIS, and he can do what he wants with it.

Also because they don't play in the house, only in the yard, so maybe they assume if the cats are in the yard, they want to play? I don't know if it's his prey drive, but Vincent is a heavy boy with giant feet who plays a bit too rough, even with smaller dogs. He is never vicious or intends to hurt them, and the skin on the cats is never broken. He just plays too rough.

When he plays, even with dogs that are bigger than him, he puts his big old paws on them (he never quite grew into his feet. They're so big that the vet thought he might be part mastiff), and knocks them down, and kinda steps on them and paws at them. He bites their neck a little, but will let them up. I tend to think he just doesn't understand that he's too rough. When they stop playing or running, he leaves them alone. Or, like with that one dead cat, he comes back to them and kinda tosses them like a toy.

When my husband found Holly, he was laying there, still alive. He had internal bleeding, and died in my husband's arms.  He was covered in drool, but no broken skin at all.

So I tend to think it's just that he doesn't understand that he's too rough. I supervise him when he plays with Godric, but he's pretty good about it. He stepped on him like once or twice, but now he jumps at him as if he's going to pounce, but places his feet on either side of him instead. They'll lay there and do little growls, and Godric will bark in Vincent's face and bite Vincent's lip, and Vincent rolls around with him and plays tug, and pins him a few times, but then presents his neck and kinda flops over, giving Godric a chance to do it back, like trying to show him how to do it. He's not being dominant or overbearing at all, he's playing pretty fairly.

How can he know the difference and be gentle with a puppy, but rough with other dogs and the cats?


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

blackviolet said:


> I
> That's what I'm leaning towards. Then I can keep my dog AND my kitties. Now I just have to make sure my husband thinks it will work, and get him to build the cat enclosure. He does bring up a valid point and says, "Well, if it _doesn't_ work, they're DEAD. You know that, right?"  So the only totally safe thing seems to be to find a home for the cats. I don't know for sure what to do.


 It sounds like you have a very workable plan. With the behavior modification of the cats, they should become quite wary of trying to go out the door which will be a key to the success. For added safety, you could always just start coming and going only out the back door, through the cat enclosure, once it's up. 



atravis said:


> GSDs are a THINKING breed, and any dog within this breed who would chase down and kill a cat, ESPECIALLY one that he knows (don't be foolish to think the dog cannot recognize the cat's scent, regardless of what it is doing) is not a "correct" GSD. Not as von Stephanitz saw it, and certainly not as the breed should be.


 Well I suppose maybe there are just a lot of very bad GSDs out there these days.




atravis said:


> Furthermore, if anything, I'd say GSD tend towards inter-bitch aggression before I would label the breed SSA (which I do not, and never have). Which is besides the point anyway, as dog aggression and prey drive are NOT mutually inclusive.


 Interbitch aggression = same sex aggression. A widespread problem with GSDs. Probably the reason I will not have another any time soon, as there is no guarantee any GSD puppy I brought into the home would be able to tolerate multiple other pushy same sex dogs once they mature. After more than 10 years I need a break from playing Rotatodog.

The point is that there is a flaw in the reasoning that because GSDs are super smart, "thinking" dogs they should never, ever kill a cat especially not a cat that was part of the family. Obviously some will and do. Just like some will and do maim or even kill other dogs that are part of their "family". It doesn't do anyone, dogs or owners any favors to pretend like GSDs are above acting like dogs because they are smart (or "thinkers").


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

chocolat said:


> I am gonna go out on a limb and suggest getting a new home for the cats
> I love cats, but GSD as a breed are noted cat eaters esp when they are running around.
> You will get rid of Vincent but odds are high the new one will grow to chase cats and eat them.
> as far as cats getting into your yard and Vincent killing those..eventually darwins theory will work and the cats will stop doing that
> ...


 
In over 50 years of having German Shepherds, I have had only 1 kill cats, and those were 2 outside cats, and she didn't eat them.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

Interbitch is NOT SSA, because, as the term implies, it is between bitches.
SSA is a sweeping term that implicates the entire breed... It is not a BREED flaw.

And for the record, I don't believe even interbitch is as big of a problem in this breed as people make it out to be. You hear people tell stories about it, and its horrible... but just think how many out there AREN'T telling stories, because their dogs actually get along. People rarely post just to tell you how _great_ things are going... they speak up when they need help

You've obviously had crappy luck in dogs if you've had to deal with this in all the one's you've owned. 

Prey to the point of killing cats IS a flaw in this breed, regardless if it happens or not. The point is it shouldn't. Having this "oh, well, it happens" attitude is only apart of the problem, that districts from the solution.

That much prey in this breed is wrong, plain and simple. If you CONDONE it, you are only adding to the problem.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

again, i agree with Lex...........if a gsd is just out to catch and kill small animals be it a family cat or an outside cat, i would say the dog is missing something........wether it be a few brain cells, or not enough stimulation and training............


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

atravis said:


> Interbitch is NOT SSA, because, as the term implies, it is between bitches.
> SSA is a sweeping term that implicates the entire breed... It is not a BREED flaw.
> 
> And for the record, I don't believe even interbitch is as big of a problem in this breed as people make it out to be.


 It is a problem with males as well, although it seems more prevalent in bitches. 

"The prevalence of behaviour problems is reported from a questionnaire study among members of the Danish Kennel Club (DKC). In total, 4359 dog owners were included in the analyses. With logistic regression, we analysed four behaviour problems: dominance towards the owner, interdog dominance aggression, separation anxiety and shooting phobia. Compared to Labrador Retrievers, the following breeds and breed groups had higher odds of being reported to have interdog dominance aggression: Belgian Sheepdogs, Dachshunds, Dalmatians, German Shepherds, Hovawarts, Pinschers, Rottweilers, Scent dogs and Spitz dogs." Companion Animal Behavior Program

"99 cases of aggression between dogs treated at the Animal Behaviour Clinic at Cornell University between 1983 and 1993 were analysed. In 73 cases the aggression was a conflict between dogs in the same household, whereas in 26 cases the aggression was directed at non-household dogs. 71% of the dogs that started fights were purebred and German Shepherd dogs were most numerous of the 38 breeds represented. Compared with American Kennel Club registrations, household aggression was less frequent among toy and sporting breeds, and more numerous among herding and non-sporting breeds." Companion Animal Behavior Program




atravis said:


> You've obviously had crappy luck in dogs if you've had to deal with this in all the one's you've owned.


 I've owned three GSDs, a male who died when he as three and two females. The male and one female were Amline and the other female is German show. The male had some same sex aggression tendencies after he turned two but they were manageable. His sire was fairly same sex aggressive form what I have heard. The Amline girl, a half sister to the male is not same sex aggressive but will not back down from if someone starts something - typical herding breed bitch 

The German showline girl has very strong same sex aggression (or "interbitch aggression" if that sounds nicer) and can not be trusted with any mature females who live here. This was not an issue until she was around three years old. Out and about she is fine and she is fine with puppies in the house up to a year or so old. It is solely aggression towards mature, same sex "pack members". She's an old dog now but still wants to fight with the other girls. Out of the three GSDs she has the most correct GSD temperament and is by far the soundest.

Since same sex aggression or interbitch/dog aggression is a problem with GSDs and is not something that is obvious from a young age, I will likely not have another GSD while I have so many other dogs. Not because I believe all GSDs are or will be same sex aggressive but because the tendency is there in the breed and it's hard to predict which will develop it. 

As for it not being a problem, every single GSD breeder I talked to regardless of lines warned me about the potential problems of keeping two females together. I didn't listen and couldn't imagine mine would ever fight - they got along great together for the first year or more. 




atravis said:


> That much prey in this breed is wrong, plain and simple. If you CONDONE it, you are only adding to the problem.


 How am I adding to the problem? I don't breed GSDs. I am just a dog trainer who understands that no breed is above acting like a dog.

Do you feel the same way about GSDs who kill rabbits, groundhogs, squirrels?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

shouldn't people have more control over their dogs? where are the owners when their dogs are killing these small animals?????????? whether its instinct or not, there are ways to avoid it, such as contain the dog, have the dog WELL trained in Ob, keep a close eye on your dog, don't let the dog out unattended, etc, etc................. isn't it called being responsible? once a dog starts doing this it becomes a habit........why let it happen in the first place?


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> shouldn't people have more control over their dogs? where are the owners when their dogs are killing these small animals?????????? whether its instinct or not, there are ways to avoid it, such as contain the dog, have the dog WELL trained in Ob, keep a close eye on your dog, don't let the dog out unattended, etc, etc................. isn't it called being responsible? once a dog starts doing this it becomes a habit........why let it happen in the first place?


That.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> shouldn't people have more control over their dogs? where are the owners when their dogs are killing these small animals?????????? whether its instinct or not, there are ways to avoid it, such as contain the dog, have the dog WELL trained in Ob, keep a close eye on your dog, don't let the dog out unattended, etc, etc................. isn't it called being responsible? once a dog starts doing this it becomes a habit........why let it happen in the first place?


 
Apparently you didn't read the rest of the thread.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> Apparently you didn't read the rest of the thread.


I've read the thread carefully. Your pit bull is probably a sweetie and thinks that slinging cats around till they die from internal injuries is all fun and games. That he's left unsupervised with cats that are let out is all about YOU. Sorry... you may look sort of hot and be from California, but that doesn't make you a responsible pet owner. In fact, I think you have too many pets to handle properly. That's just my opinion.


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> It is a problem with males as well, although it seems more prevalent in bitches.
> 
> "The prevalence of behaviour problems is reported from a questionnaire study among members of the Danish Kennel Club (DKC). In total, 4359 dog owners were included in the analyses. With logistic regression, we analysed four behaviour problems: dominance towards the owner, interdog dominance aggression, separation anxiety and shooting phobia. Compared to Labrador Retrievers, the following breeds and breed groups had higher odds of being reported to have interdog dominance aggression: Belgian Sheepdogs, Dachshunds, Dalmatians, German Shepherds, Hovawarts, Pinschers, Rottweilers, Scent dogs and Spitz dogs." Companion Animal Behavior Program
> 
> "99 cases of aggression between dogs treated at the Animal Behaviour Clinic at Cornell University between 1983 and 1993 were analysed. In 73 cases the aggression was a conflict between dogs in the same household, whereas in 26 cases the aggression was directed at non-household dogs. 71% of the dogs that started fights were purebred and German Shepherd dogs were most numerous of the 38 breeds represented. Compared with American Kennel Club registrations, household aggression was less frequent among toy and sporting breeds, and more numerous among herding and non-sporting breeds." Companion Animal Behavior Program


A few thousand dogs... really?

Compared to HOW many of these dogs there are in the world?
The only reason that number is so high, is because the number of THESE DOGS is so high. Furthmore, the number of poorly bred, BYB and mill spawn dogs is outrageous. Again, just because a dog is doing it, doesn't mean it _should_.[/QUOTE]





AgileGSD said:


> Not because I believe all GSDs are or will be same sex aggressive but because the tendency is there in the breed and it's hard to predict which will develop it.


I disagree. A GSD who cannot operative as a part of a pack is a problem dog. Many working venues today require dogs to work together. If the dog cannot get along with his partners, then he is causing problems for his handler.

Is there perhaps a stronger correlation between underworked dogs that have these issues? You seem to think so for cat-killers, so why not for SSA? If a dog is being furfilled, has been properly socialized and properly introduced to its housemates, there is not reason to consider this breed more likely to tend towards SSA than another.

Some dogs simply don't like each other, this is true, and will NEVER get along, no matter what you do. But I don't consider that typical for the breed, or that that some outrageous number of them is going to tend towards SSA.




AgileGSD said:


> How am I adding to the problem? I don't breed GSDs. I am just a dog trainer who understands that no breed is above acting like a dog.
> 
> Do you feel the same way about GSDs who kill rabbits, groundhogs, squirrels?


Complacency is a part of the problem. The more people that think this is appropriate behavior, the more its going to continue.

And yes, I do find that a dog who will kill a small furry is inappropriate for this breed.

MAN created dogs. They are not some strictly primal being, fresh from the ooze. We add or subtract what like/dislike in dogs, so saying ALL dogs, regardless, will attack and kill small animals is blatantly false. They only reason a dog does this is because man has bred him to do so.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

something I wonder about,,has Vincent been around Godric yet? How do you think that will 'go' if they are out in the backyard together? 

I have 5 cats, all indoors, but at times they do go out on leashes with me. I know if there was a stray cat in my backyard, my dogs would give chase, I honestly can't say whether or not they'd kill it because they've never been in that situation before.

I DO know, one gsd killed a woodchuck, years ago, after it bit him in the nose. I DO know, my aussies have killed mice, a few rabbits, and have chased another woodchuck that had gotten in the fenced in area. For my aussies, it's all about the big chase, and getting whatever critter it is to 'stop moving'..They don't eat them, (thank god!) and they probably don't 'mean' to kill them, but it IS about 'stopping' them, and they are quite serious about it. Would they kill a cat racing thru the backyard, even if it was one of mine? don't know, but I do know they'd probably chase it down if it was racing around. 

I had a problem with cats/dog with two of my dogs, first one was GSD Kodi, he was 2, we had no cats, and I took in a litter of 3, he wanted to eat them. I caged the kittens, and every day would take them out one by one, and sit with him and those little kittens on the floor,,he finally got used to them and would sleep with them.

The 2nd was my male aussie, at 12 weeks I brought him in, he was fine with the cats for a couple days then all 'heck' let loose, he would literally pin a cat and get in it's face and go cujo on them (no biting but wicked barking)...Verbal corrections were not gonna work with this thick headed puppy,,I had to get physical, grabbed him by the scruff, and got in his face big time, did this twice, and he's never bothered the cats again, and I've since brought in 3 more. 

So I do think it can be done, altho an adult dog that has killed already, may just be a little happy doing it and harder to dissuade. 

It's about consistency, control , keeping the cats safe as a number 1 priority and supervision.

Just my 2cents


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

while I certainly don't condone or think it's appropriate that dogs kill small furry animals(any animal) , it's called 'prey drive', _chase, catch, kill. _

The topic discussing prey drive is actually a pretty interesting read


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

I have been able to have Shepherds and cats for most of my life, one female a few years ago killed a feral cat I was feeding in the barn, but it wasn't mangled so I don't know what the circumstances were. I introduce my kittens to my dogs in a safe cage, than let them get used to seeing them. I also have terriers with off the wall kill drive, but they actually do not touch the cats and even snuggle on their dog beds with them, they were raised that there would be absolutely no chasing of my cats.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Relayer said:


> I've read the thread carefully. Your pit bull is probably a sweetie and thinks that slinging cats around till they die from internal injuries is all fun and games. That he's left unsupervised with cats that are let out is all about YOU. Sorry... you may look sort of hot and be from California, but that doesn't make you a responsible pet owner. In fact, I think you have too many pets to handle properly. That's just my opinion.


Thanks for being completely rude and unhelpful, and not having anything to contribute at all. I have admitted what is my fault, and am asking for help and advice for both the new pup and the old one, and all you have is something completely  to comment, and nothing useful. What the  does my appearance and location have to do with anything?

If you had "read the thread carefully" then you wouldn't have agreed with this:



debbiebrown said:


> shouldn't people have more control over their dogs? where are the owners when their dogs are killing these small animals?????????? once a dog starts doing this it becomes a habit........why let it happen in the first place?


because I've already said how it happened and why it is possible. 

And you wouldn't be saying that "he's left unsupervised with cats that are let out," as if to infer that I intentionally allow my cats to roam the outdoors unsupervised with the dogs, and then hope that they're okay, or to infer that I just leave my dogs unattended in the backyard or something. 

If you read through the thread and my replies and explanations, you'd see that many of the usual precaution and socialization suggestions are things that we do and have done. I have never had issues like this with my dogs and cats before. When those simple measures are the standard, and have always worked for you in the past, you don't tend to think that you need to go further with it. As I have said all over this board, I've never done any formal training, just regular stuff that you teach a dog around the house, but I'm here to learn.

I stated REPEATEDLY that the cats *accidentally* got out when we didn't know, through both human and mechanical error (people do make mistakes, and you don't have to tell me that it  sucks, I love every single one of my pets). Perhaps we should have had better security measures in place, but how many people usually think that that's neccessary? Obviously it has now _become_ painfully apparent that it _is_ neccessary here, and I'm looking for advice of all sorts.




blackviolet said:


> I know this is mostly my fault, and I should have trained him more when he was younger, but it's also because of stray cats that get in our backyard when we're asleep or gone. (I have an acre of desert that only has chainlink fencing, and for whatever reason, cats occasionally come into our yard.) We find the dead cat hours or a day later, and how can you punish him then? So he had no consequences.
> 
> _*One of our cats must have slipped past our feet while we were carrying in groceries, and we had no idea.*_ Afterward, we were being very careful going in or out the doors, and keeping track of the cats at all times, and were going to try to work on training with Vincent and cats. *Then one of our doors closes and even clicks, but it's not always completely closed. It's something with the latch or whatever. If it gets pushed from the inside, sometimes it'll pop open. *Well, my other cat did that in the middle of the night, and now he's dead too. It's all my fault, and I'm a bad mom. We were trying so hard to be careful and it wasn't hard enough.





blackviolet said:


> *I don't just leave my dogs outside either.* We close off the door from our bedroom to the house at night, so the dogs are in our bedroom with us. If you open the sliding glass door in our bedroom, there is a prefab room with a spa in it on the patio that has a swamp cooler and a doggy door to outside. So when we go to bed, our bedroom is closed off to the house, and open to the spa room with a way to get outside. So they come and go as they please at night.
> 
> During the day, they're in the house with us. If they want to go out, or if we're going to work, I put them out, but they still have access to those two other rooms, and in the summer, we usually leave on the swamp cooler for them.


 
Basically, the dogs have their own part of the house with access to the outdoors at night and when we can't be home (when they're unsupervised). Really, what more can you do? Right now, I'm almost always home, but when my husband and I are both working, you can't leave your dogs locked up for 8 hours a day! With our setup, they have access to indoors and outdoors, and are separated from the cats.




> I never specifically taught the "leave it" command, but the dogs *never* chase the cats in the house, even if the cats are playing and going wild and running everywhere. _The dogs are totally aloof to the cats_ running and playing, unless a cat toy rolls past them, and then they pick up the jingle ball or fake mouse and steal it. But that's it. It's never even been _close_ to an issue. (I know the "leave it" command is useful for other things as well, but we just say, "Uhh-uhh!" and the dogs "leave it" to whatever it may be, so it's the same thing, but* I've never HAD to use it pertaining to the cats*.)
> 
> If one of our cats runs past us and we know it, we *immediately* go out and get him or her. But every now and then they dart so quickly while our eyes are averted, it's like a disappearing act (vanishing into thin air), and we have no idea that they got out.
> 
> ...


I hate to get defensive or whatever about this since I do know that a large part of it is my fault, and I deserve criticisms, because we've  up. But after I've already admitted that over and over, it's just you trying to bash me some more without offering anything useful.

Really, when your dog has been well-socialized with the cats, and shows hardly any interest in them, even when they're running and playing around the house, and you've taken them outside a couple of times and supervised, and the dog was only a little more interested, and you've never had any issues with the dog and the cats ever, when they rub up against his face and pick out of his bowl at the same time he's eating and he doesn't bat an eyelash, and other than a couple of rare supervised occasions, you don't let your cats outside at all, why would you think that this might happen? You know what I mean?




JakodaCD OA said:


> something I wonder about, has Vincent been around Godric yet? How do you think that will 'go' if they are out in the backyard together?


I supervise him when he plays with Godric, but he's good about it. I've hidden near a window by the door so that Vincent doesn't know I'm watching, so that I can see if he starts to get too rough when I'm not around, but still be close enough to stop it immediately. In all past experience, even when he's super riled up and rough housing at the dog park, Vincent will immediately stop playing and come over the second we call him. 

Vincent stepped on Godric once or twice while playing, but figured out that he can't, and now he jumps at him as if he's going to pounce, but places his feet on either side of him instead. They'll lay there and do little playful growls, and Godric will bark in Vincent's face and bite Vincent's lip, and Vincent rolls around with him and plays tug, and pins him a few times, but then presents his neck and kinda flops over, giving Godric a chance to pin him back, like trying to show him how to do it. He's being very gentle.

My husband and I have been watching closely, to make sure Godric doesn't get dominated, because I've been told that's an issue as well, but Godric is very spunky and acts quite fearless and always asserts himself, and Vincent isn't being dominant or overbearing at all, he's playing pretty fairly. Besides, Vincent has never been a very dominant dog.

Also, we have been in the backyard with all of the dogs running (Godric included), and Vincent doesn't have any more interest in him than usual, doesn't chase him or anything like that, but then again, they were supervised.

How can he know the difference and be gentle with a puppy, but rough with other dogs and the cats?

In the meantime, while we figure out this mess, my MIL is watching Vincent at her house, and we go visit almost every day, and bring Godric and Victor with us. Victor doesn't play with Godric much yet, though Godric keeps trying hard! He's barking in his face and biting his lip, and running over to him with toys, and trying to entice him. (Victor is extremely submissive and even defers to puppies.) So when we go to my MIL's house, Godric is sooo excited to play with Vincent again. Victor won't play tug, but Vincent will, though he isn't very invested in it, and will often just let go. Basically, he lets Godric win a lot.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

Too many animals, too much time writing novels on boards. You don't like tough love, so you get more whiny and ultra defensive. None of what's been described would have happened if you were able to handle your animals... accidental cat escapes and all.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I think she got "the point"..

I think she's admitted her 'fault's',,I think she's been bashed enough for not being a 'perfect' owner like the rest of us here. 

Maybe it would be more productive to give some ADVICE in order to prevent this from happening in the future vs telling her what an irresponsible person she is. 


I'm glad Vincent is ok with Godric, hope you can find a resolution that will keep the cats safe and him leaving them alone


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

atravis said:


> A few thousand dogs... really?
> 
> Compared to HOW many of these dogs there are in the world?
> The only reason that number is so high, is because the number of THESE DOGS is so high. Furthmore, the number of poorly bred, BYB and mill spawn dogs is outrageous. Again, just because a dog is doing it, doesn't mean it _should_.


 My dogs are not poorly bred or "backyard breeder" or "puppy mill" dogs. The breeders warning me about keeping two girls together are respected breeders in their venues of choice. 



atravis said:


> I disagree. A GSD who cannot operative as a part of a pack is a problem dog. Many working venues today require dogs to work together. If the dog cannot get along with his partners, then he is causing problems for his handler.


 Actually the jobs GSDs were bred to do don't require the dog be able to tolerate living with same sex dogs. The job Foxhounds were bred to do does and it's rare to find Foxhounds who don't tolerate lotsa of pack animals. 

There is nothing about my same sex aggressive bitch that would make her inappropriate for any sort of job GSDs do. A friend of mine has a same sex aggressive bitch who has produced a lot of working police, narcotics and service dogs as have her daughters. 

One interesting thing that I have seen with many same sex aggressive GSDs is that they may not tolerate any other same sex dogs in the house but they will tolerate their daughters and granddaughters, providing they grow up in the house.



atravis said:


> Is there perhaps a stronger correlation between underworked dogs that have these issues? You seem to think so for cat-killers, so why not for SSA? If a dog is being furfilled, has been properly socialized and properly introduced to its housemates, there is not reason to consider this breed more likely to tend towards SSA than another.


 Yes there is. I know a lot of same sex aggressive GSDs or GSDs who have same sex aggressive tendencies that are well socialized, well trained and very active with their owners in sports/work - my on included. IME it is not at all a socialization or training or owner "dominance" issue but a genetic issue. I actually suspect that GSDs are so prone to this sort of aggression because of their high pack drive combined with them not maintaining a lot of juvenile traits as they mature. I think this sort of same sex aggression, seen in GSDs and some other breeds is all about them being "wired" to not accept sharing resources. As a breed, GSDs bond very, very strongly to their owners. They seem to bond strongly to their offspring who stay with them as well. But non-related, same sex dogs are just a threat to the resources including the owner, who the GSD is and should be attached to above all other animals. 



atravis said:


> Some dogs simply don't like each other, this is true, and will NEVER get along, no matter what you do.


 And the number of those dogs is higher in GSDs than the average dog. Like all breeds, GSDs have their drawbacks. 




atravis said:


> Complacency is a part of the problem. The more people that think this is appropriate behavior, the more its going to continue.


 I don't think that anyone suggested it is "appropriate" for dogs to kill the family cat. But killing small animals is normal dog behavior. 



atravis said:


> And yes, I do find that a dog who will kill a small furry is inappropriate for this breed.


 Well I suppose all of my GSDs and most of my Belgians have inappropriate temperaments. Who knew? The GSDs have lived peacefully with the (indoor only) cats for almost 12+ years. One was an adult not raised around cats when she came here. But they both killed their share of rabbits, squirrels and/or birds when they were faster, younger dogs. And they are not by any means dogs who have over the top prey drive. 



atravis said:


> They only reason a dog does this is because man has bred him to do so.


 I'd suggest reading up on dog behavior before making such silly statements in the future.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree we need to stop saying things to people who have made mistakes, because they are just like you. We have all made mistakes in our lives and who are we to pass judgment upon another? 

I think something that should be done that might me hard to accomplish since both Vincent and the cats like each other, it to not let them play anymore. I think he doesn't realize his size or his power and like some other large dogs, can't turn down his play enough. Because of this I think the cats are no longer something he can play with. If you still want Godrick to be able to play with them that is up to you, but right now, it is very hard for Vincent to distinguish where the line is and has already crossed it. 

The cats are now yours.... he can't play with anything that is yours. The cats and Vincent are never allowed together alone, and they can't play together, because just like you said... he treats them like toys. And they are not his toys. Don't allow the cats to tease or taunt Vincent and never allow play. He is like an ogre trying to play with a butterfly he befriended but killed her when he was trying to give her a hug. He does not know that he is doing anything wrong because to him, it is just something that is allowed, he is just playing. 

I don't fully understand your set up, but I think you are saying the dogs have a way to stay inside or outside in a fenced in area while you and your husband is at work correct? I know the cats will escape (believe me I have "adopted" more stray cats in my childhood than my father ever wanted to see.) Once a cat goes out side.... that is addicting to them... and if they came from living outside they will find a way. 

Is there any way that you can block the dogs entrance to the outside area if for any reason one of the kitties doe escape? Are the dogs house trained in that manner that they could hold it?


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## atravis (Sep 24, 2008)

AgileGSD said:


> I'd suggest reading up on dog behavior before making such silly statements in the future.


And I'd suggest you read up on this breed's history before doing the same.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Yeah, sorry, the description is probably hard to understand. At night or when we're gone, the cats are in the main part of the house. The bedroom and the spa room are connected to eachother, with a doggy door to outside (our fenced yard). We close off the bedroom to the house, so the dogs and cats are separated, and the cats do not have a way to get outside. So the cats have the house, and the dogs have two rooms with access to outside.

Vincent doesn't play with the cats. In the house, he is completely aloof to them. He just lays there, while they do whatever they want. Even when they run, he'll kinda roll his eyes over to look, or sometimes walk over and calmly steal their toy and then lay back down, but that's it.

Sure, there's a way to block the dog access from outside if I know a kitty has gotten out. But if I KNOW that a kitty has escaped, I go out and get them immediately! The darn cats are always keeping an eye on the doors and making a mad dash for them every time they open. They sit in the windowsills and watch birds outside, and when they run out, they start looking up, or looking at the spots they saw the birds perched. But when Holly got out, although I was carrying in groceries, I was watching the door when I went in and out, and closing it behind me when I went in and out. But it only took a second of me not looking at my feet, and that was it.  Now, if we're going to be coming in and out, I lock the cats in a room first. 

I haven't been allowing Godric to play with the cats. I don't want to make him frustrated and accidentally create a problem where there might have been none, so I wanted to ask how to best go about this. I thought I knew, since I've never had a problem in my life with our dogs and cats, but now it appears that I need help, because things obviously didn't go right with Vincent.

I wonder if Vincent HAD ever tried to play with the cats when we were there, if he would have learned to be gentle, like he is with Godric. But he's never played with the cats with us there. He's never shown any desire to.

I let Godric sniff them and be close to them, and reward him when he leaves them alone, and lays down and chews his toys. If he's too rambunctious and really wants to play with them, I call him away and treat him when he comes, and distract him with his toys instead. He's been really good for the most part. He's a puppy, so he wants to play with and chew on everything he walks past, haha, so he can't be perfect with them yet, but he's doing well. The other day he started barking at a kitty, and when i went over there, he stepped on her. I told him "NO," and he looked back and forth between the cat and I, but I called him over and we played tug instead. I'm surprised the cat didn't jump up and run away, but she didn't. She seems to want to play with him, but I'm keeping an eye on it.

Ohhh, I did say how _Victor_ loves to play with the kitties, and maybe you thought I meant Vincent. Victor (the GSD mix) looooves the kitties, and they love him. He's very mellow, but when he was young, and still on occasion, he plays with them. He lays down and gently pokes them with his nose, and sometimes paws at them, but only very lightly. It's mostly him lifting his paw up to block them from swatting at his nose, but they don't use their claws on him. He never puts his mouth on them. It's very cute and way way way more gentle than the videos on here. Why couldn't Vincent learn from Victor?


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

I haven't read every single word on this long thread, but the gist of it seems to be that Vincent is fine with the cats in the house, but the cats keep getting out. Two have now been killed.  

The solution seems easy - everyone in the household needs to be totally dedicated to making sure that the cats NEVER get outside (not even one or two at a time, under supervision), and in order for that to happen it needs to become part of the daily routine to always know where the cats are. If you can't find them all in the house, do not let the dog/s outside until you account for them.

I have two cats too, and they are strictly indoors. But like everyone else, I'm not perfect, and Elvis is an escape artist and he's gotten out a few times. But since I KNOW this about him it's become a habit for me to constantly check on him so I always know where he is, I just keep looking around the house until he's accounted for. Emmy is not as bad, but I usually account for her too while I'm making my rounds. On the few occasions that one of them has gotten out they're not out there very long because I've figured out they're gone and have gone looking for them.

I would also be very careful to directly supervise the interactions between the dog, the puppy, and the cats when they're all together in the house, and discourage rough play of any kind.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

I believe Invisible Fence...yep, not sure how it works exactly:
Indoor Freedom
The Invisible Fence Brand In-Home® Solutions can effectively train cats to avoid certain areas, rooms, items or even other pets. You can define cat-free zones, whether you want to keep them out of the nursery or off the dinner table and kitchen counters.
Invisible Fence ® Brand - Invisible Fence For Cats

To keep the cats inside only. I can't get through all the stuff in this thread, but cats indoors and cats outdoors are two different things to a lot of dogs.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

I read the whole post and I guess I'm dense or something.

Why can't the OP just keep ALL the animals in the house unless there's a HUMAN outside to supervise?


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

Lauri,
thats what i am trying to figure out...............maybe we are both dense...........


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

So when we're at work for 8 hours or more, and again when we go to sleep (another 6-8 hours), the dogs should be confined to the house with no way to get outside?


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

blackviolet said:


> So when we're at work for 8 hours or more, and again when we go to sleep (another 6-8 hours), the dogs should be confined to the house with no way to get outside?


Yes.

I do not want my dogs (or cats) outside unless I am home and awake.

Dog thefts (bunchers looking for animals to sell to laboratories and dog fighters looking for bait), dog abuse (people throwing poisoned food in the yard, kids tormenting the animals), accidents (dogs getting their collars caught on fences or each other), escapes ...

Too many bad things that could happen. I prefer my dogs to be inside the house, safe and sound, when I am not home.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

Check out this post:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...ry-reminder-take-collars-off.html#post1381754

This happened when the owners were THERE and they were able to save the dogs. What would happen if no-one had been there? Two dead dogs.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

i totally agree with that..........


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

blackviolet said:


> So when we're at work for 8 hours or more, and again when we go to sleep (another 6-8 hours), the dogs should be confined to the house with no way to get outside?


 Do you have a dog door or do you leave the dogs in the yard?


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## JKlatsky (Apr 21, 2007)

blackviolet said:


> So when we're at work for 8 hours or more, and again when we go to sleep (another 6-8 hours), the dogs should be confined to the house with no way to get outside?



That's how my house works...No one goes outside without supervision.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

blackviolet said:


> So when we're at work for 8 hours or more, and again when we go to sleep (another 6-8 hours), the dogs should be confined to the house with no way to get outside?


At night for sure - there's no reason your dogs need to be outside while you're sleeping. My dogs sleep in our bedroom in crates. They'd be fine loose in the house at night except that they sometimes go to the sliding glass door and watch the backyard for furry critters to bark at. :nono: A couple of nights being woken up to barking at 3 in the morning, and they went right back into their crates! I could also just close the bedroom door, but there's no reason not to crate them as well. They like their crates and go into them readily, often without even being told, and that way if I want to sleep in on the weekend I don't have to worry about being woken up early by dogs jumping on the bed trying to play. Keefer likes to check on me during the night if he's loose, he'll come over and stick his nose in my eye to make sure I'm still there. :wild:

If you have a dog door and want the dogs to have access to the yard while you're at work, you just need to make sure the cats are all present and accounted for in the house before letting the dogs out. Our dog door has a panel that can be used to lock it so the dogs can't go out, but we never do because it's inside the garage pen. When we're home they're in the house with us unless they want to be outside, and when we're gone they're in the garage pen. And my cats are in the house.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

Lauri & The Gang said:


> Yes.
> 
> I do not want my dogs (or cats) outside unless I am home and awake.
> 
> ...


 
Yup, me too.

I saw that someone linked to a website about predatory drift. Good. 

All that discussion about aggression (which I lightly skimmed) is pretty irrelevant to the cat issue. Jean Donaldson says it very nicely: there's really no such thing as prey "aggression." Is a dog AGGRESSIVE toward a sandwich? Of course not. 

When a cat acts like prey (which she does when she runs), then the dog perceives her as being a food item -- a sandwich. Deeply held instincts kick in. Instincts. Reflexes. "Food runs away. I chase it." 

There are 7 stages of the predatory hunt that wolves complete in a specific sequence: 


Orient
Eye
Stalk
Chase
Grab
Bite-Kill
Bite-Dissect
Some breeds are bred with strong preference for one or more trait (hounds chase; retrievers grab but don't dissect. Terriers are the only breed group that retain all of these traits.)

I would agree that herding dogs in general eye and stalk (and I'd even allow a bit of chase), but never bite or kill. But arguing about this does no one any good. The question is, how do we STOP this behavior?

First, as Lauri and Deb said, management. 

Second, I think that it IS possible to train an opposing behavior. It's going to be very hard because we are working against not only learned behavior (his most recent adventures) and not even plain ole genetic behavior, but genetic behavior that has always kept the species alive. This is some deep-seated stuff.

Frankly, I don't think that corrections will do it. You're going to have to replace that behavior with a behavior that the dog finds equally (or almost equally) rewarding... so probably something that allows the dog to displace that prey drive. A game of tug, chasing a favorite toy at the end of a fishing pole , happily running with you down the sidewalk -- all of these might be useful reinforcers (the more appropriate reinforcers that he likes that you can use, the better, so be creative).

Essentially, then, we're going to train the dog to look away (not necessarily at you, just AWAY from the cat) as soon as he sees it. I'd like to see this training done with clear markers (like a clicker), so that it's really clear to the dog that you're marking the INSTANT he looks away. As your training goes on, you can go from quickly glancing away (blinking, averting eyes), to turning his head...I'd like to train this dog to actually turn his body away -- a big muscle movement where his body tells his brain "we're not doing that chasing thing anymore." We can't directly access his brain. But by manipulating what he does with his body, we can open a window into his brain. 

If you're savvy about clicker training, you may be able to do this on your own. Otherwise, I'd recommend working with a trainer for several sessions. The key is, you have to be able to get the dog turning away from the cat (which means you're going to have to mark tiny discrete eye movement at first -- he's not going to TURN away from the cat. He may simply avert his eyes for a second, if that. But if you capture and reinforce that, he'll build up the time he looks away). And your reinforcer has to be powerful. 

If you do this vigilantly for months and months, he can learn that when he first sees a cat, the appropriate thing to do isn't to immediately take off after it, but to turn away. Of course, you'll be there -- always. But if you are able to get him to do this, do it consistently, and you work to a point that he's reliable (and you're reinforcing on a variable schedule), I would think that it's very likely that the one time that you're NOT there, he would still react that way. What we've done is override his initial instinct. His brain would say CAT = turn away , instead of CAT = chase. 

The way I think of it is like this: If we want to do a super secure wipe of our computer hard drives, we don't just delete files. We buy software that OVERWRITES what we used to have on our drive. That's what we need to do. We need to overwrite the old files (genetic instincts and his learned behavior) by teaching new behaviors that are enjoyable (which makes them self-rewarding) and have a high probability of being rewarded by you. 

Hard to do? Absolutely, and it will take a lot of commitment from you. If he gets a chance to chase a cat, then you lose a lot of ground. But if you're consistent, fair (you train calmly, reinforce appropriately), and make it fun, I think it's doable. 

Good luck.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Thank you! Thank you guys for all of the advice and insights. We're going to have to modify everything. I just need to convince my husband to build the cat enclosure and set up some scat mats or spray things, and then we can bring Vincent back home.

I definitely want to work with Vincent with a trainer, and don't intend to do it myself. Here I thought he was just fine up until this happened, so obviously, I need help. 


AgileGSD said:


> Do you have a dog door or do you leave the dogs in the yard?


We have a dog door that goes to the rooms the dogs can have that are separate from the cats.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

debbiebrown said:


> Lauri,
> thats what i am trying to figure out...............maybe we are both dense...........


That would make three.


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## 3K9Mom (Jun 12, 2006)

blackviolet said:


> I definitely want to work with Vincent with a trainer, and don't intend to do it myself.


Dogwise.com has a couple of items that you might find helpful to get you started on this... Grisha Stewart's Behavior Adjustment Training DVD applies here rather nicely. Your situation isn't exactly what she discusses in the video but it's the same basic procedure (notice the stimulus than turn/back away). So that will show you how what I describe actually LOOKS (for me, sometimes it's hard to visualize what a training technique is supposed to look like). 

Control Unleashed (the book) explains the "Look at That" idea. We don't really want your dog to be looking too long at cats -- because looking quickly becomes obsessing becomes chasing. But the fact is that your dog does see the cats, and most likely, earlier than you do. (What we want is for your dog to glance quickly at the cat then turn.) So we can't ignore that fact. So I think it would be good to familiarize yourself with Look at That. 

Then, when you talk to a trainer, you'll have some idea of whether you think these will work for you, and a basis to start a conversation. Any reputable trainer should be familiar with Control Unleashed. You can certainly watch the DVD with your trainer and discuss how to make it work for you. 

CU has a DVD set. I have it, but still haven't watched it, so I can't tell you whether it might be helpful.


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## Relayer (Apr 29, 2010)

blackviolet said:


> So when we're at work for 8 hours or more, and again when we go to sleep (another 6-8 hours), the dogs should be confined to the house with no way to get outside?


Or, maybe people that can't deal with so many animals, should work less, have a care taker or shed some animals.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

blackviolet said:


> Thank you! Thank you guys for all of the advice and insights. We're going to have to modify everything. I just need to convince my husband to build the cat enclosure and set up some scat mats or spray things, and then we can bring Vincent back home.
> 
> I definitely want to work with Vincent with a trainer, and don't intend to do it myself. Here I thought he was just fine up until this happened, so obviously, I need help.


 Great! 



blackviolet said:


> We have a dog door that goes to the rooms the dogs can have that are separate from the cats.


 I know it is yet another modification but what about having the dog door led to a large, secure kennel instead of the whole yard? That way, your dogs can still have access to the great outdoors when you aren't home or at night but it will keep them and any small animals safer. Then you can give them access to the whole yard when you are home and better able to supervise.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

AgileGSD said:


> I know it is yet another modification but what about having the dog door led to a large, secure kennel instead of the whole yard? That way, your dogs can still have access to the great outdoors when you aren't home or at night but it will keep them and any small animals safer. Then you can give them access to the whole yard when you are home and better able to supervise.


That is an excellent idea, and it's what we do. The dog door in our garage pen (chainlink enclosure) leads to a separately fenced run down the side of the house. The dogs only have free access to that part of the yard, unless we're outside with them. Potty trips are always out through the door from the garage into the side yard dog run, if we take them into the yard with us, we go out through the sliding glass door, and they come back in the house when we do.

Again, I didn't read every single word on this thread, but if the times that Vincent has killed a cat have been when the cats were outside with him, wouldn't the simplest solution that can be implemented immediately before you build ANY kind of enclosure be to make sure that the cats are accounted for in the house before letting the dogs outside? Even if Vincent goes away and Godric is fine with your cats, they are still safer in the house.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

I'd like to add one more suggestion to the great ones you've got above, hope to not confuse you more I would NOT leave Godric unsupervised with the adult dog(s) at this age.


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## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

good point Diane, and also a puppy will bond to the other dogs more than the owners if they spend to much time together...........


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

another good point debra! LOL


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

Thanks for all of the book and video suggestions, I will look into those as well. I'm going to try to find a reputable trainer in the area, esp since it turns out that the one I found (and already paid), I don't especially like. 


I don't leave Vincent unsupervised with Godric, though for whatever reason, he seems to be very gentle when playing (even when he doesn't realize he's being supervised). I said I don't understand how he knows to be gentle with Godric, but not with the kitties. It's probably partly because Godric barks and plays back, and I'm sure part of it is the different body language between species. Dan said, "It's the same with cats. They'll kill a big rat, but know NOT to kill a kitten that's even smaller than the rat." So that makes sense, but I still keep an eye on them when we go visit. For now, my MIL is keeping Vincent at her house, and we'll have her keep him until we build what we need to, and until Godric is a tad bigger. But we go visit all the time, so that Godric and Vincent are used to eachother. Godric is always soooo excited to see Vincent, because Vincent will play and Victor won't. Victor only plays with Vincent, haha. So Victor gets super excited to see Vincent too. Right now, Victor is really bummed, and has been ever since Vincent left. I've been trying to rile him up and get him to play and stuff, but he's not having it. Godric tries to get him to play all the time, but Victor just lays there. 

We're going to build the cat enclosure, work on training the cats to stay away from the doors, work on training the dogs, and work on training ourselves to be more aware. Also, training the cats to better come when we call. Sometimes they don't, and it takes me forever to find them.

Our first cat _was_ lost by me not taking stock of them before I went to bed, but that was also when I never thought Vincent would harm one of our cats. 

In fact, ironically, before Vincent killed Holly, my husband and I had just had an argument about letting the cats be indoor/outdoor cats. He said he'd always had indoor/outdoor cats, and there'd never been a problem, and I said I did too when I was a kid, but I don't want my cats outside because of other cats, cars, coyotes, strange dogs, etc, and if something happened to them, it'd be my fault for letting them out. He said that cats enjoy being outside so much, and I'm like a mom that wants her child in a plastic bubble because she's afraid her kid might get hurt in the real world. I said oh well, the cats are staying indoors.

Then Holly died, which totally affirmed it.

But I learned my lesson and have been obsessively keeping track of them, but as I said, we had that **** faulty door. You could slam it, and it would seem closed, but with pressure from the inside, it would occasionally pop open. (I thought it took quite a bit of pressure, though. Apparently not, since all it took was the pressure of the cats to open it.) I counted and made sure the cats were all in their half of the house when I went to bed, and slammed the door. 

The POS door popped open in the middle of the night, and that's how Lestat died. 


I don't know about building the kennel. If stray cats are getting into our fenced yard, I'm sure they would also get into a dog run, unless we fenced the top of it too? 

I don't think we're going to do the kennel, at least not any time soon, because one, we might not be in this house much longer, and two, because our yard has a lot of expensive work tools, material and equipment for our company, and the dogs act as a deterrent from anyone getting into our yard. Most (but not all) of it is towards the back of the yard, so making the kennel out there would make them unable to get to the house, plus my husband needs to be able to drive his truck from the back gate through the backyard.  

But if we move, maybe we can work out different arrangements.


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## AgileGSD (Jan 17, 2006)

Just came across this new book and wanted to let you know about it:
Welcome to Dogwise.com

It's called CHASE! - MANAGING YOUR DOG’S PREDATORY INSTINCTS.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

AgileGSD said:


> Just came across this new book and wanted to let you know about it:
> Welcome to Dogwise.com
> 
> It's called CHASE! - MANAGING YOUR DOG’S PREDATORY INSTINCTS.


 
Just bought it. Thanks!  I also picked up a couple of others. We bought some of the things to build our cat enclosure, but there are still a couple of things to figure out. Also, Vincent is doing well at my MIL's house now, so we figured we'd give it at least a few weeks until Godric is a little bigger, just to be on the safe side.



Okay, now here's the other question. How do I teach Godric to be good with other dogs? I don't want him to end up being crazily dominant or aggressive. Right now, he has this habit of barking in their face and biting at their lip to try to get them to play with him. If they won't, he doesn't stop, and does it incessantly. Poor Victor puts up with it, and rolls his eyes at me, but other dogs get angry. They don't like his little needle teeth biting their lip/face! I don't blame them.

He got snapped at the other day (which he totally deserved), but I want his experiences with other dogs to be positive, so how do I break him of this, or teach him to be less obnoxious when he wants to play? Or will he kinda just figure it out himself? When I can tell a dog doesn't want to play with him, I try to distract him with a toy, but it doesn't always work. 

If they'll play with him, he's fine, but when a dog won't play with him, he gets frustrated, and tries even harder. He just barks his little head off and keeps trying to chew their face, as if that's going to change their mind.

I'm wondering if I should allow another dog to snap at him as a "Knock that sh*t off!" type of thing, so he can learn from other dogs that this isn't acceptable, or if I should be doing something to help him learn the proper way? It doesn't seem like that's the best way to have positive interactions with other dogs, but it doesn't seem like best solution is just for me to try to pull him away from the other dog and tell him to mellow out, so I figured I'd ask and see what you guys think.

He's very different than any of the shepherds or shepherd mixes I've ever had, and he's only a baby! Haha. Learning and growing with him is going to be fun, and definitely an eye-opener. :wild:


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I know people frown about relating dogs to kids sometimes. But what would you do if a child wasn't playing nice with his friends. ...He would re moved and put in a time out. Nothing crazy. Maybe given a warning first, and then if he didn't respond, removed from the area to cool down.

I would handle Godric in a similar manner, when he is out with other dogs, and his play gets out of hand. Stop the play. (its good to have a short leash on him at first when training). If Godric doesn't listen, then take him by the leash and give him an Eh-eh. Then walk him to his crate (or a safe bathroom), and have his chill for a few minutes, when he returns, he can play as long as he can play nice. You don't want to wait for the other dogs to correct him, because it might not be pretty, and your other dogs should defer to you, to be their leader and keep all pack members in line.


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## blackviolet (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm looking into e-fences to place around the doors for the cats. 

For now, we got squirt guns and hooks to keep them on the walls right by the doors, haha.


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