# Sticky  Advice on Giving and Taking Advice from the Internet/Forums



## NancyJ

Recently there have been a number of threads where advice has been given that is well above and beyond people simply sharing their own experiences......... 

Internet forums are great places to meet people and exchange ideas. Sometimes, however, advice is given that is just plain wrong or downright dangerous. As _moderators_, our job is not to ensure the quality and accuracy of the advice people give each other. As _forum members_, we put in our own two cents when we agree or disagree just like everyone else on the board [and try to keep the place clean-cut and polite]

That said, here are some considerations when evaluating the advice of a poster or when you give advice.

You should know your source. Everyone can be an "expert" on the internet and people are sometimes not honest about their own lack of experience or knowledge. Often, this is not intentional deception but folks simply not realizing their own limitations. We all go through phases where first we know _nothing_, then we know _everything_, then we realize we _really_ don't know very much, and _finally_ we realize we do know more than we thought we knew.

If someone is an excellent writer, he may confound you with his "knowledge" while taking you down a wrong and possibly dangerous path. Often the most knowledgeable folks have the least to say as they are not interested in hearing themselves talk. Often the least knowledgeable want to make sure you know just how much they know and care more about their own ego than you or your dog.

Ideally, someone giving advice (as opposed to someone sharing their own personal experiences and opinions) should have a real name and verifiable credentials and not stand as an anonymous person.

Time on the board and number of posts do not make an expert.

It is always nice when people give information to back up their assertions, such as links to journal or legitimate magazine articles. And even linked information, such as blogsites etc., can be fraught with errors.

Look for some level of consensus, particularly if an idea seems "out there". It IS true that some of the great ideas of all time are outside of the norm, but most of the paths we go down with training and feeding and caring for dogs are pretty well traveled. Just realize when something is "out there" and do more research on your own to back it up. You are responsible for deciding if the advice you have been given is credible.

When you are dealing with a medical issue, especially an urgent one, SEE A VET. When you are dealing with a serious temperament issue, GET TO A TRAINER. Use the board to help you get ideas and suggestions for selecting these folks and for questions to raise as you talk with them, but go to someone who can actually see your dog, diagnose the problem and help you fix it.

When you are giving advice, please just give it and let others give theirs. The board is not a pulpit for people to preach their ideas alone to the exclusion of others but a place for sharing of ideas. Please also don't jump on new members for not knowing everything, including how to spell "shepherd". People come here to get advice and not be insulted.

It is also very sad when a thread goes down the drain because a "war" between two posters diverts attention from the original post and becomes about the two arguing personalities. 

If we can check out egos at the door, we might realize that we ALL have things we can share and things we can learn here.


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## starburst

Where is the "like" button when you need one : )


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## Jax08

starburst said:


> Where is the "like" button when you need one : )


At the top right where it says "Rating"


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## Shade

:thumbup:


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## Jax08

Nancy - Could you please make this post a sticky?


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## starburst

Jax08 said:


> At the top right where it says "Rating"


well... what do you know... I had no idea that was there lol

Thanks !


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## glinny

Jax08 said:


> At the top right where it says "Rating"


Wow, I learn something new every day. Or maybe two or three things.


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## Mooch

I think that's one of the best posts I've read on here  and I agree it should be a sticky 
it's easy to be an "expert" on a forum!

Now lemme see if I can find that "rating" button LOL


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## Twyla

Maybe this post should be part of a welcoming email when members join as well.


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## onyx'girl

Twyla, that is a great idea.....and Nancy, thank you for such a great post~ I rated it 5 *'s!


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## bigd3077

I take all advise with a grain of salt and I don't give any cause I'm new to this! However, if anyone needs advise about women, fishing, or beer ask me as I'm an expert in these fields!


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## Kris10

jocoyn said:


> Recently there have been a number of threads where advice has been given that is well above and beyond people simply sharing their own experiences.........
> 
> Internet forums are great places to meet people and exchange ideas. Sometimes, however, advice is given that is just plain wrong or downright dangerous. As _moderators_, our job is not to ensure the quality and accuracy of the advice people give each other. As _forum members_, we put in our own two cents when we agree or disagree just like everyone else on the board [and try to keep the place clean-cut and polite]
> 
> That said, here are some considerations when evaluating the advice of a poster or when you give advice.
> 
> You should know your source. Everyone can be an "expert" on the internet and people are sometimes not honest about their own lack of experience or knowledge. Often, this is not intentional deception but folks simply not realizing their own limitations. We all go through phases where first we know _nothing_, then we know _everything_, then we realize we _really_ don't know very much, and _finally_ we realize we do know more than we thought we knew.
> 
> If someone is an excellent writer, he may confound you with his "knowledge" while taking you down a wrong and possibly dangerous path. Often the most knowledgeable folks have the least to say as they are not interested in hearing themselves talk. Often the least knowledgeable want to make sure you know just how much they know and care more about their own ego than you or your dog.
> 
> Ideally, someone giving advice (as opposed to someone sharing their own personal experiences and opinions) should have a real name and verifiable credentials and not stand as an anonymous person.
> 
> Time on the board and number of posts do not make an expert.
> 
> It is always nice when people give information to back up their assertions, such as links to journal or legitimate magazine articles. And even linked information, such as blogsites etc., can be fraught with errors.
> 
> Look for some level of consensus, particularly if an idea seems "out there". It IS true that some of the great ideas of all time are outside of the norm, but most of the paths we go down with training and feeding and caring for dogs are pretty well traveled. Just realize when something is "out there" and do more research on your own to back it up. You are responsible for deciding if the advice you have been given is credible.
> 
> When you are dealing with a medical issue, especially an urgent one, SEE A VET. When you are dealing with a serious temperament issue, GET TO A TRAINER. Use the board to help you get ideas and suggestions for selecting these folks and for questions to raise as you talk with them, but go to someone who can actually see your dog, diagnose the problem and help you fix it.
> 
> When you are giving advice, please just give it and let others give theirs. The board is not a pulpit for people to preach their ideas alone to the exclusion of others but a place for sharing of ideas. Please also don't jump on new members for not knowing everything, including how to spell "shepherd". People come here to get advice and not be insulted.
> 
> It is also very sad when a thread goes down the drain because a "war" between two posters diverts attention from the original post and becomes about the two arguing personalities.
> 
> If we can check out egos at the door, we might realize that we ALL have things we can share and things we can learn here.


:thumbup:
This thread should be a "sticky".


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## Lauri & The Gang

Also, it should be common sense to ask for evidence when someone makes a claim.

For example, if someone said 95% of all Purple Sable German Shepherds have heart disease I would be asking to SEE where they got that number. Statistics, studies, etc.


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## Jax08

lol Lauri...I'd get stuck on the PURPLE and just ask for pictures!


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## Anubis_Star

I was just discussing this very important matter with our technician intern yesterday. The internet is DANGEROUS. Especially with the younger generation, we are WEAKENED by the internet. We no longer know reliable sources - text books, written studies, etc... And even some recent "knowledgeable" sources are dangerous! Peer review studies are thrown around constantly because they sum up numerous articles into one paper. But you have to check sources, because I've seen some HORRIBLE peer review papers that don't even say the same thing the original article did.

I've seen blogs from "people who use to work in a vets office", one that really comes to mind. A blog about common ways to help with diarrhea. She recommended, because she "use to work in a vets office" 10 years ago (most likely kennels or front desk because a TECHNICIAN would call themselves such), that a dog with diarrhea and/or vomiting be given no food OR WATER for 24 hours. Yes, dogs with diarrhea or vomiting may be directed to fast by a vet, but RARELY not given water, as dehydration is a HUGE concern! And in some cases, like parvo, you WANT them to eat! Because you want them to shed intestinal lining that is harboring the virus!

I'm a CVT that works largely emergency medicine, so I like to look at the medical health questions and see if I can offer some advice. Just like if I were to answer a phone at work, I'm not ALWAYS just going to tell you to come in. I will talk with you about potential causes, things to watch for, etc...

But 9 times out of 10, I WILL tell you to go see a vet! Because you NEED to! and that's not just a "money hungry" statement. So many symptoms can be so many causes, not only is it impossible to give you a rough diagnosis without seeing your pet, it's ILLEGAL!


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## Jax08

I think this thread needs to be bumped up again. I see many people giving advice in an absolute manner. The only way to be sure of what is wrong with your pet is to have a vet actually physically examine the animal! Nobody can give a diagnosis over the internet! When in doubt, call your vet!


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## rtdmmcintyre

This is nonsense. I truly am a French Model, trust me, trust me


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## Anubis_Star

I'll repeat again too, it is ILLEGAL to give veterinary advice over the phone or Internet without a patient/Dr relationship


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## Cheyanna

Anubis_Star said:


> I'll repeat again too, it is ILLEGAL to give veterinary advice over the phone or Internet without a patient/Dr relationship



I didn't know you were a lawyer. Guess lawyer + GSD = cool


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## Anubis_Star

Cheyanna said:


> I didn't know you were a lawyer. Guess lawyer + GSD = cool


Ok....

It is illegal. Especially people that recommend medications. Like the string of diarrhea threads recently and the recommendation to give something like pepto, which is not safe for dogs and for which there are many safer alternatives. 

I can't tell you to give your dog medications over the phone if you call my clinic. A stranger on the Internet definitely can't recommend medications or treatments

And it's illegal for a reason. Not the fact that "you shouldn't do it because it's not allowed". You need to be careful about doing it because it's DANGEROUS. so when your dog comes in with hemorrhagic diarrhea because the pepto Bismol ate a hole through it's stomach, I can't be held liable because I didn't tell a random stranger to give their dog an off label medication with higher risks over the phone. 

Or (and trust me I've seen this within the last 2 months) when you call me and tell me that you have a golden retriever mix with mites, and I tell you to give it ivermectin over the phone, and then you bring it in when it can't walk and I look at the dog and instantly see AUSTRALIAN SHEPHERD mix, and it's got the mdr1 gene mutation like 50% of aussies do and now it's got a severe toxicosis from the ivermectin....

I've seen people on here throw out horrible recommendations for symptoms that in my professional experience I would call very concerning, just because once upon a time they had a dog that kinda almost did that so it's ok. And very few people on here are professionals therefor very few should be making any kind of medical recommendation


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## Gwenhwyfair

Anubis Star.. :thumbup: 

I'd like to add we see this in the training sub forum more frequently as well, especially with aggression issues.


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## Stonevintage

This has concerned me also. I've seen these gentle warnings before but I seems some still persist in giving medical advise.

Question. If we see a post of this nature and click on the "report" button, will the moderator delete the post and insert a warning sentence about giving medical advise?

As far as I can see, some are not stopping, and those are probably the dangerous ones.... Thank You.


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## gsdsar

So, it's a grey area. It's not illegal to give medical advice if you are not a Dr. It IS illegal to prescribe medication, make a diagnosis if you are not a Dr. 

However, telling someone to give an over the counter anti diahrrea medicine is not illegal. At all. Unless said person says, "your dog has blankly blank disease and I am going to fax you an RX for blanky blank medicine". However, and here come grey, 

If you are a Dr., and have set up an online website, take an email, discuss the dogs problem and then RX an item. That is actually legal. To have a legal client/patient/dr relationship, ceryain things must be met. And that would actually meet them, if the Dr is available to follow the case after RX the meds. 

Any person can legally say, " when my pup had loose stool, I gave them pepto, fixed them right up" and that is not illegal. 

Now, more grey area, as a veterinary technician, I am held to different standards, because my education is different. Same as EMT and paramedics. We CANNOT go outside the scope of our trAining legally. So, how does this affect this argument.... A person is choking, the Heimlich does not work, person passes out. A total civilian would generally not be held liable if he got a knife and did s trach. A trained EMT or Medic would be fired and prosecuted for going above their scope of knowledge. The total civi would be covered under the "Good Samaritan" law. (Very extreme example, for examples sake)

Now that law is not a blanket law. But it protects those trying to help from being sued for hurting a patient while trying to help. Breaking ribs is common during CPR. This protects citizens from being blamed for trying to help. Those broken ribs can puncture a lung and kill a patient. 

The more training you have, the more responsible you are for what you do. Someone showing off their CPR cert card, needs to do CPR correctly, or they can be held liable. 

But on an Internet forum. Any schmuck can give medical advice, as long as they are not pretending to be a Dr, making a diagnosis and prescribing a medicine.


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## Stonevintage

I wasn't necessarily thinking about the legalities of it, rather the inappropriateness of it.

I have seen conversations with the least bit of what might have brought about a political discussion get sniffed in a hurry. I have also seen overheated conversations be shut down or have content removed.

Wouldn't a conversation that could possibly lead to the death of a GSD be worthy of removal or warning?


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## gsdsar

Stonevintage said:


> I wasn't necessarily thinking about the legalities of it, rather the inappropriateness of it.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen conversations with the least bit of what might have brought about a political discussion get sniffed in a hurry. I have also seen overheated conversations be shut down or have content removed.
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't a conversation that could possibly lead to the death of a GSD be worthy of removal or warning?



You make a good point. But unless the advice is so horrible (beat your dog over the head with a metal pole until it stops barking) that death or severe harm is a KNOWN outcome, then it's up to members to be responsible and research medical advice. Pepto, immodium, are not GUARANTEED to kill a dog. They can be used successfully. There are risks. And it's up to an owner to do their due diligence before giving their animal something mentioned on the Internet. Again. Obnoxious gray area


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## selzer

Uhm, my vet told me to use pepto. 

They don't like pepto, and immodium comes in pills that I can fling down their throats. So I use that instead. The vet said that was ok too. 

A vet can listen to symptoms over the phone, and tell you to give hydrogen peroxide to get the dog to throw up -- been there, done that. 

My thing is to have as much information as possible, call the vet and let them make the call as to whether I should bring the critter in or not. Knowing what the temperature is, and whether they ate their food this morning, etc. along with whatever symptoms I was seeing gives them the info they need, then they can tell me to bring her right up, or make an appointment for her tomorrow, or rush her to the ER, or take two immodiums and call me in the morning. 

But, I agree, most of the advice on threads about dogs acting strangely, or sickness ought to be, "call your vet and tell them this" or "get in the car now and get your pup to the vet ASAP!" 

But dogs do not talk and tell their symptoms, and when they are stressed, they mask a lot. And our breed is prone to many diseases, and here you have a lot of people who have seen a lot of them. Sometimes it is helpful for us to know what questions to ask and what tests we want a vet to run when we go to the vet. So asking about medical issues here does have a lot of value. At the end of the day, people need to realize that they are responsible for their pet's healthcare, and they really shouldn't make decisions solely on what somebody told them in a public forum.


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## nezzz

I think part of the problem with getting advice off the internet is people will always attempt to self-medicate and that itself is fine, for humans at least. If we have a headache, we go pop a few pills of aspirin, or if we have a cold, we go pop a chlorpheniramine. And if our symptoms don't ease, we go to the doc. For the most part this works because we are able to articulate and understand what is wrong.

But when dogs are in pain, they cannot communicate their symptoms to us. In any medical diagnosis, information is key. For example, if it is diarrhea, it could be indigestion, parasites, IBS or a plethora of other things. As a human, you could probably guess what is wrong; did I eat too much or did I eat something dirty and you could communicate this. Dogs do not have that level of sophistication to tell us how they got that diarrhea, so all we can go on is history of our dogs' diet and environment and attempt to treat it. But this information you have can be incomplete, especially when trying to articulate this to someone over the internet when seeking advice. It is totally different as opposed to in-person.

That said, even MDs and vets do get diagnosis wrong sometimes and you need two or three trips to the doc to get things right, and they are right there in front of you trying to treat you or your dog.

So unless you're really confident, I don't think anyone should self-medicate any animal. But of course, you shouldn't knee jerk yourself into bringing your animal to the vet at every instance of loose poo for instance, unless it is an emergency. Sometimes being too knee jerk can be harmful to the animal too, stress of transportation and visiting the vet can aggravate simple illnesses. Dogs are just as resillient as humans and just as we can sleep off a flu, so can dogs.


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## selzer

Actually, for some of us, writing it out on the internet is a lot less stressful, and we probably remember more than we when we are standing there, having our 5 minutes with the vet. How many times have I remember the rest of the story while driving the dog home? 

Typing it out first might actually be very helpful.


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## nezzz

Writing things down is actually a good idea. Thats because you're seated down, slowly typing and detailing everything you've observed, versus rushing through telling the vet everything in one breath.

Still just because we're not MDs or vets, they do detect details which we did not think were necessary. For example, to most of us, red spots would just be a rash, but to a doc, red spots could be a plethora of things like ringworm, mange, allergies, etc... depending on how they are laid out on skin, to most of us, red spots are just red spots.


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## selzer

nezzz said:


> Writing things down is actually a good idea. Thats because you're seated down, slowly typing and detailing everything you've observed, versus rushing through telling the vet everything in one breath.
> 
> Still just because we're not MDs or vets, they do detect details which we did not think were necessary. For example, to most of us, red spots would just be a rash, but to a doc, red spots could be a plethora of things like ringworm, mange, allergies, etc... depending on how they are laid out on skin, to most of us, red spots are just red spots.


Red spots? Staph infection -- usually, at least on my girls.


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## nezzz

selzer said:


> Red spots? Staph infection -- usually, at least on my girls.


Thats the thing though, that is YOUR dog and you know what might affect her depending on the environment and you can pick out the appropriate treatment. For most people posting their dog's ailments on the internet seeking help, red spots could be a range of problems and you will see "helpers" come up with all types of diagnoses and treatments, some of which might not be doc approved. And thats because we don't really know the dog, nor the environment and diet they have and that is a recipe for disaster.

Which is why anyone without experience shouldn't be seeking help on the internet and should immediately seek a doctor's opinion.


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## arycrest

nezzz said:


> Thats the thing though, that is YOUR dog and you know what might affect her depending on the environment and you can pick out the appropriate treatment. For most people posting their dog's ailments on the internet seeking help, red spots could be a range of problems and you will see "helpers" come up with all types of diagnoses and treatments, some of which might not be doc approved. And thats because we don't really know the dog, nor the environment and diet they have and that is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Which is why anyone without experience shouldn't be seeking help on the internet and should immediately seek a doctor's opinion.


I agree in an emergency people should go to the vet as soon as possible and most people will tell a poster to do that. I always question when someone starts giving out dosages of both prescription and OTC medications UNLESS I know the person well.

However, I'm not sure I can agree completely with you ... when someone presents a problem we often share our experiences when applicable ... share what treatment worked or didn't work, etc. Most advice isn't "do this" or "do that" but more suggestions on what the poster can do. And even then it's often with a suggestion to go to the vet or go to an emergency hospital if it sounds serious.


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## nezzz

arycrest said:


> I agree in an emergency people should go to the vet as soon as possible and most people will tell a poster to do that. I always question when someone starts giving out dosages of both prescription and OTC medications UNLESS I know the person well.
> 
> However, I'm not sure I can agree completely with you ... when someone presents a problem we often share our experiences when applicable ... share what treatment worked or didn't work, etc. Most advice isn't "do this" or "do that" but more suggestions on what the poster can do. And even then it's often with a suggestion to go to the vet or go to an emergency hospital if it sounds serious.


I got to disagree because sharing experience can be misconstrued as medical advice. I don't think anyone should "play doctor" over the internet especially if they are not medical professionals. Any symptom can manifest with variety of pathological causes which are unknown by regular joes.

There is a reason medical professionals are protected by medical indemnity, it is so they can do their best to treat their patients without fear of being sued. There is a reason why they have that MD or DVM because they know what is going on. So for the safety of yourself and your pets, do seek professional help if you are unsure instead of relying on the internet. Unless you are really sure, why are you putting your dog at risk just to save a few bucks on consultation?


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## Stonevintage

Even though Pepto may be harmless in some situations it may be very contradictory in others. What if the sick dog or pup has something else going on, something the dog is masking or the owner didn't notice? A drop of blood on the floor, pale gums, increased heartbeat, fever or abdominal swelling? 

If the dog is ill with something other than a minor upset stomach and must go to the vet after it gets this remedy, will the Pepto on board hinder proper treatment? Just a quick check on the Pepto home page revealed no less than 262 drugs (under more than 1,300 brand names) that Pepto reacts unfavorably with. Also, if there is some bleeding internally, Pepto can be a problem also, if there's impaired kidney function it says not to use.


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## selzer

Well, I have to admit, that it was reading this site that got me to ask for the EPI test for Gretta. My vet did encourage me to use Enzyme Diane rather than buy them through them. 

But asking for Tylan also came from this site. And then, going on the net got me a bottle for $65, when my vet sells if for $130. 

Sometimes, the people here do give us information that gets the vet on the right track. And sometimes people here know more about the health concerns of our breed then some vets. Sometimes, we have to know enough to be our dogs' advocate, and that sometimes means challenging a vet or getting a second opinion if it doesn't seem right. Having that extra knowledge has saved lives. 

I think we have an awesome tool, and some of us have no business picking it up, while others of us can do rudimentary cuts with it, and others of us can do some pretty intricate stuff with it. Ultimately the dog is ours, we are responsible for it. If we choose to give something someone on the internet suggested a try, because they have seen something similar in the same breed, that is a decision we can make.


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## rtdmmcintyre

This is the internet. Your not going to be able to legislate everything a person says or how they say it. It is dependent upon the person reading to have just a smidgen of common sense. For as long as the internet has been around, heck for as long as people have been around there has been misinformation. It is up to the person wanting information to sort through to first see what has the ring of truth to it and then to put that information to the acid test to see what actually holds up. Or get this if you want fairly accurate information you either go to your vet or to a website that is a recognized authority. These forum boards are mainly just good to get ideas, to bounce things around to see how they sound to others. But if you take any of these forum boards too seriously or to think people on the other side of the screen are experts just because they claim to be. And you don't know them. Your headed for disaster. Come on Ladies I'm telling you I'm a French model.


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## Jax08

rtdmmcintyre said:


> This is the internet. Your not going to be able to legislate everything a person says or how they say it. *It is dependent upon the person reading to have just a smidgen of common sense.*


'nuff said


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## lyndasdoggies

True! It's best to cite sources when you say something around here.


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