# Is this aggression? (video)



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

This was posted on another forum I'm on, and they were labeling the dog's behavior as aggression. I am just wondering what people who are familiar with GSDs would say about the dog's behavior?
Obviously it is something a guide dog should not be doing but would you say this is an aggressive lunge? Why or why not?

This link will take you directly to that point in the video:
Training Uri, the education of a guide dog - YouTube


or here is an embedded version, you can go forward to about 1:48 ---


----------



## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

Well, he certainly has not learned to be neutral to other dogs. He tensed up and locked on with the stare prior to the other dog.


----------



## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm no expert at all but I don't think Uri was feeling the love for other dogs that the guy mentioned. Doesn't look stable enough or engaged enough for a service dog.


----------



## lorihd (Nov 30, 2011)

agree with jacks dad


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2012)

I'd agree with jacks dad as well

If I needed a service dog I would not be comfortable with him. As for it being aggression...it's hard to tell from one scenario, dogs are like people, they like some dogs and not others, he obviously didn't like that particular dog

I have a friend who raised a lab puppy to be a service dog and one of the main things that she was stressed to achieve with him was desensitization from day 1. She did an awesome job and he was accepted and is currently working as a service dog now


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

didn't they say that he's still working on the desensitization? 

He's still in training so by the time he's finished he should be fully desensitized, right?


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I think the dog was from a guide dog school and had already completed training and was placed with his handler. That's my understanding at least. I don't think the dog is still in training with the school.

I was wondering though about his body language, it doesn't really look aggressive to me?


----------



## TheActuary (Dec 17, 2011)

It looks like he is training his own dog... I could be wrong but from the video the dog definitely looks like he's still in training. He also looks fairly young.


----------



## TheActuary (Dec 17, 2011)

Which is also why he has a helper going around with him I presume


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

TheActuary said:


> It looks like he is training his own dog... I could be wrong but from the video the dog definitely looks like he's still in training. He also looks fairly young.


I think that the school finishes training the dog, they place the dog with a handler but they have a trainer to help the handler learn to work with their new dog, so I think that is why there is a trainer/helper there. The dog was placed with him but he is still in the process of getting the dog used to working for him and learning to work with the new dog.
I know a lot of guide dog schools have the new handlers come and stay at the school for several weeks to pair with their new dogs and do this process.
So I think that might be what they're doing in the video.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

I would FAIL the dog.

Not reliable . He shows shut down -- lip flicking , yawning , shaking it off , he rushes not in sync with handler , (passes stairs - rushes up stairs ) -- this dog is not sure .
I have put 5 dogs through Canine Vision Canada plus one that was trained and certified privately , plus I have shadowed or tagged a sight impaired person for a week learning how and where they live , what they work at , challenges etc.. 

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs


----------



## ILGHAUS (Nov 25, 2002)

I only watched about half way through. Poor Uri needs to be washed out as a Guide dog or as any type of Service Dog. I think he would make a very nice pet.

Too much yanking and pulling that dog around. A guide harness is not for corrections. It allows the handler and the dog to know exactly where the other is located. It is a way to allow the dog to communicate with the handler. Proper walking together as a team comes before any going out into traffic or other place with so much distraction. 

Look at the first street crossing - Uri is "shaking" off showing he is not comfortable with what he just did. I would hate to see how that dog would react if someone honked loundly at the team or if they were passed by an emergency vehicle with flashing lights and sirens. 

Looks like someone trying to train their own dog with the help of a private trainer. A reputable school would never have assigned that dog to a handler.

I would not be walking one of my "pet" dogs out in the community if it lunged at another dog like Uri did while the team was standing at the street corner.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

carmspack said:


> Not reliable . He shows shut down -- lip flicking , yawning , shaking it off , he rushes not in sync with handler , (passes stairs - rushes up stairs ) -- this dog is not sure .


This makes some sense though if this is the dog's first time or one of the first times he is working with a brand new handler in a new location, to be unsure of things and learning how to work for someone new in a brand new place?



ILGHAUS said:


> Too much yanking and pulling that dog around. A guide harness is not for corrections.


I can't tell what kind of collar he is wearing, but I think he might have been trying to give a collar correction, but since the leash(connected to a collar) and harness handle are being held in the same hand it's hard to tell.




ILGHAUS said:


> Looks like someone trying to train their own dog with the help of a private trainer. A reputable school would never have assigned that dog to a handler.


It seems like this dog is from a guide dog school and they took the dog to the new handler and then they work with them for a while at their location. There's another video there where they show him meeting the dog for the first time, and the trainer is wearing a logo from a guide dog school.


----------



## KZoppa (Aug 14, 2010)

I agree with Carmen and TJ. This dog is showing all kinds of signals that he is NOT okay with a lot of what is being asked of him. He does look young and reacting the way he did is NOT something a service dog needs to do. They need to be completely neutral with other animals if for nothing else than the safety of the handler because just like in the video, when Uri lunged, he just about yanked his handler off his feet. Now how badly could that have gone if Uri had succeeded and made contact with the other dog? If he was interested in making friends with the passing dog, he certainly wouldnt have lunged open mouthed the way he did. JMO.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

Nope -- fail the dog . No excuses -- people who need the dog to get around are not experts in dog behaviour and don't have the benefit of sight to see potential trouble coming their way . I spent a great deal of time with trainers at CVC , shadowing them on Yonge street when the dogs were being trained (I was on opposite side of street). The dog needed to be reminded of the pauses at curb . The handler had to keep reminding him of the pause when the street was crossed. This is probably a set training course to have those diagonal demarkations , where the handler scraped his foot , to remind the dog of desired behaviour , which is pause and wait for redirection .


----------



## Zisso (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't know anything about training a Service Dog but wanted to say that I thought the video was enlightening in the way it showed what was being done, and with the added commentary here, I think it helps me to understand a great deal more about the process of training an SD. It sure would be scary to be visually impaired and working with an unstable dog.


----------



## BlackPuppy (Mar 29, 2007)

Unfortunately, the timing of that correction was much too late. You could see it coming long before the lunge. 

I have a dog that doesn't like any dog to look at him. But I see it immediately and correct him verbally before he gets to the tenseness or the lunging. 

FAIL.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

It doesn't look particularly aggressive, more like over stimulated prey drive. We have a client GSD who is the sweetest thing but gets bonkers around other dogs. This dog's approach lunge reminds me of her. Ours will greet like that and then eventually play, but it totally freaks out most other dogs. We have taught her to platz prior to greeting and it seems to settle her and remind her not to be a freak. I wouldn't think this would make for a great guide dog, though. 
They need to wash him out and quit wasting time on further training.


----------



## Mrs.K (Jul 14, 2009)

BlackPuppy said:


> Unfortunately, the timing of that correction was much too late. You could see it coming long before the lunge.
> 
> I have a dog that doesn't like any dog to look at him. But I see it immediately and correct him verbally before he gets to the tenseness or the lunging.
> 
> FAIL.


He's blind. So he couldn't see it coming. However, that's what you got a flanker for. He should have scanned the surroundings being highly sensitive to everything that's going on.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

I just want to add that I am impressed with the handler, though. At the beginning he says that Uri becomes a different dog when he puts on the harness, he states that his ears go back. I'm fascinated that the handler picks up on that even when he is blind. 
When I was a kid (like 10 I believe) I read a book called "Follow My Leader" about a young boy who is blinded in an accident and gets a GSD guide dog. This is completely and totally what got me obsessed with dogs and GSDs in particular. For years I read everything I could about GSDs and guide dogs thinking that would be my job one day. 
I'm still in awe of those dogs and that training. 
I hope Uri finds a good situation for him, he looks like he'd make a great companion for someone.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I know it is not proper behavior for a guide dog, what I really wanted to know was whether people think this was aggression or something else, and what the body language is saying to you?


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

bocron said:


> When I was a kid (like 10 I believe) I read a book called "Follow My Leader" about a young boy who is blinded in an accident and gets a GSD guide dog. This is complet


_*Oh my gosh I read that SAME book!!!*_ The dog's name was Sirius and the boy was blind because a firecracker exploded too close to his face. Think I read that book 5 or 6 times when I was a kid.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Emoore said:


> _*Oh my gosh I read that SAME book!!!*_ The dog's name was Sirius and the boy was blind because a firecracker exploded too close to his face. Think I read that book 5 or 6 times when I was a kid.



LOL, that is hysterical. The kid's name in the book was Jimmy Carter, which was pretty funny at the time. I remember even then thinking the kid was a doofus to change the dog's name from Sirius (cool name, even if I had no idea how to pronounce it) to Leader (lame name to say the least).

I bought a copy off ebay about 5 years ago just for fun and re-read it. It was still a pretty good book .


----------



## Emoore (Oct 9, 2002)

That's right, I had completely forgotten the kid was named Jimmy Carter. As always, I remembered the dog's name and forgot the human's.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Bocron, you're the only person I've 'met' who read that book besides myself! It was a good book.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Uri looks quite young (though I think he's ~2) & somewhat uncertain. I think that might be due to dog & handler 'learning' each other. Additionally, it's possibly more difficult for Uri b/c Eric (the handler), has acknowledged it's personally a struggle for him to yield the necessary control/decision making to Uri. Undoubtedly that msg travels down the leash leaving Uri especially conflicted in a new & emerging relationship.

This is Erik's 4th dog from Fidelco. It would be interesting & instructive to see follow up videos as their training progresses.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Emoore said:


> _*Oh my gosh I read that SAME book!!!*_ The dog's name was Sirius and the boy was blind because a firecracker exploded too close to his face. Think I read that book 5 or 6 times when I was a kid.


Oh yeah I read that as a mix too. I didn't recognize it by the name but I remember it from your description... I read every dog related fiction book I could get my hands on when I was a kid. I remember another about a girl who was training an obedience dog and then started losing her sight, but I don't remember the name.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Sorry, I was typing with autocorrect... It should say I read it as a KID, not as a mix.


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

RubyTuesday said:


> Uri looks quite young (though I think he's ~2) & somewhat uncertain. I think that might be due to dog & handler 'learning' each other. Additionally, it's possibly more difficult for Uri b/c Eric (the handler), has acknowledged it's personally a struggle for him to yield the necessary control/decision making to Uri. Undoubtedly that msg travels down the leash leaving Uri especially conflicted in a new & emerging relationship.
> 
> This is Erik's 4th dog from Fidelco. It would be interesting & instructive to see follow up videos as their training progresses.


 
xx this is not my read on it . All of this is no reason for the gsd to be reactive to the dog approaching , no reason for the nose flicking, yawning , shaking it off .


----------



## carmspack (Feb 2, 2011)

also , there is no room for "somewhat uncertain" . Part of the dogs preparation would have been with a foster family who has a responsibility to socialize the dog , report for evaluations all along the process . This is not a new problem , probably had extra work put in to the dog to see him through it.


----------



## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

Given remarks Erik has made, I think it's possible Uri is struggling to understand his role in the relationship. Communication & partnership must go 2 ways. From what Erik has said I think it's possible Uri is struggling to properly establish himself within the working relationship.

Uri absolutely should not have been reactive towards the other dog. He also appears too easily distracted & not fully engaged with Erik. Lack of maturity? Thin nerves? Mixed messages from the handler? Still settling in? Any combination of these things could be involved. Personally, since Erik seems committed to Uri, I'd like to see additional videos as they (hopefully) find each other & establish their unique rhythm.


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

bocron said:


> When I was a kid (like 10 I believe) I read a book called "Follow My Leader" about a young boy who is blinded in an accident and gets a GSD guide dog. This is completely and totally what got me obsessed with dogs and GSDs in particular. For years I read everything I could about GSDs and guide dogs thinking that would be my job one day.


 I will look for this book on e-Bay, thanks for sharing! When I was a kid, the books I read and re-read were about border patrol dogs (my favorite), a tank crew dog, and a textbook for working dog handlers LOL

I think the guide dog has to be very stable and capable of making independent decisions. I don't know if the dog on the video can do that, but maybe he will with training and maturity. He seems to be very young.


----------



## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

GSD07 said:


> I will look for this book on e-Bay, thanks for sharing! When I was a kid, the books I read and re-read were about border patrol dogs (my favorite), a tank crew dog, and a textbook for working dog handlers LOL


That's funny, I read books on training Schutzhund, family protection dogs and business protection dogs as a kid.


----------



## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

BARNES & NOBLE | Follow My Leader by James B. Garfield, Penguin Group (USA) Incorporated | Paperback, Hardcover

$5.99, such a deal


----------



## GSD07 (Feb 23, 2007)

Thanks, Annette!


----------



## Gmthrust (Mar 3, 2010)

That wasn't dog aggression.....on either dog's part. That was pure and simple Human-induced error all the way around, seems to me. Both dogs exhibited excitement prior, and brief exhilaration. The passersby, with the over-allowance given to their dog pulling toward a service dog, need a good 20 lashes with a wet noodle. So too, 20 more wet-noodle lashings goes to the guy who was training Erik and Uri to be a team.

Maybe the guy who accompanied Uri was...idk...jet-lagged or something akin....and in ways we'll probably never know.....feeling not on top of his health matters or suffered a tiny brain-type air-biscuit moment....but he shoulda stepped in ALOT SOONER to help ensure a better set up for Erik and Uri to have a more successful outcome of their initial outings. Well that's how I see it. Thankfully Erik truly seems to understand that Uri and he needs to work together for their relationship to bud and flourish between them.

So maybe the guy who handed Uri over to Erik is overworked and/or stressed in someway.....but I do blame him......and for the sake of improvements, I made a donation to Fidelco this morning.


----------



## kelseyca (May 4, 2011)

*Re:*

At 1:48, this is the same reaction my 11 month old pup has suddenly started having with other dogs (except hers is more intense and lasts longer). I am getting really worried, especially since she had never done this before. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to handle this? How should I correct her?


----------



## e.rigby (May 28, 2011)

I did not like the behavior of Uri when he saw the other dog, the tense behavior, the lunge... a guide dog should not show any of those responses! It may be something that can be fixed, but at this current moment and time, the dog is not guide dog material and technically he should be failed and placed as a pet in a pet home. It's a lot of work, and this dog just did not seem comfortable with the task at hand  he is decently trained, probably better than most 'pets' but even with the training done.. that shouldn't be reason to push him to be something he isn't!


----------



## 2GSDmom (Aug 4, 2011)

Absolutely NOT aggression. Excitement and attention redirection inappropriate for the situation--trainer/helper needs to alert Eric & Uri about oncoming _Golden-on-Flexilead._ The tail is up and remains in a relaxed curve, ears are upright and forward, hackles are Not up, mouth is open and lips are relaxed--NOT aggression. But, this dog is supposed to be _working _not playing--so...just based on this, without further info, I agree, Uri gets an F for the day.

I did notice that the curbings he failed at were handicap curbings--he seemed OK on regular--maybe his first intro to them?


----------



## Bismarck (Oct 10, 2009)

my 2 cents...

not that i know that much about guide dogs, but for general dog behavior the dog should have been corrected with a "leave it" when he focused on the other dog.
how is a blind person to know his dog is focusing on another animal?
like others said, this dog should remain neutral to other dogs. that means looking at the dog then moving on. yes i see you and don't care.
this is something a blind person can't fix, because they can't see the precursors.
not sure how this dog made it to a blind persons home, but i can say i'd never recommend the company or their dogs.


----------



## katdog5911 (Sep 24, 2011)

bocron said:


> When I was a kid (like 10 I believe) I read a book called "Follow My Leader" about a young boy who is blinded in an accident and gets a GSD guide dog.
> I forgot all about this book....I read this as a kid too! Made me terrified of firecrackers.


----------



## knwilk44 (Apr 19, 2012)

I have to say that I don't know much at all about guide dogs. Uri's behavior prior to the lunge is borderline aggressive to me. The lunge was open mouthed and completely aggressive behavior. Dogs that are trying to play don't go for the jugular right off the bat. Either way it goes, Uri could have all the best training in the world but it's not going to take away his dog aggressiveness. What happens when that trainer leaves Erik and Uri? Uri cannot be trusted to not make that same reaction once the trainer leaves and should not be a guide dog. JMO


----------



## debbiebrown (Apr 13, 2002)

looks very questionable to me. definitely some issues going on. i am not sure how a blind person can remedy this situation on his own out in public not being able to see or read body lauguage of these situations. maybe with some work it can be done with help, but i know alot of times dogs showing this behavior it can escalate as time goes on. myself i would prefer a more stable dog, one who is indifferent to strangers and dogs if i were blind. also the dog might be a wee bit unsure and acting on fear. as he gets closer to his handler and knows the handler has a weakness, wouldn't he tend to be more aggressive protective not being a balanced dog?


----------

