# How can this be ? ( A white GSD pup )



## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Received the pedigree today for our white GSD puppy. In 4 generations there is 1 black, 1 sable , 1 black and red and 2 imports whoms color isn't recorder the rest are all black and tan. 
Can anyone explain how this lineage could possibly produce a white puppy ?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

White is not a color. It's a gene that masks the true genetic color. However, there has to be that gene in the line ot produce the puppy. I would ask your breeder if the DNA for hte parents is on file with the AKC and Embark your puppy if there are no whites in that pedigree.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Could the white masking gene go beyond 4 generations and still be carried ?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

luluburkmier said:


> Could the white masking gene go beyond 4 generations and still be carried ?


I don't know. I think it's recessive and a copy from both parents are required. So I guess a parent could carry it down. My question is how can the breeder not have questioned this? Were the parents white?? if you paid for an AKC registered puppy from a good breeder, I would be demanding DNA of the parents. 









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Pigment Intensity in Dogs is Associated with a Copy Number Variant Upstream of KITLG 

Can you post the pedigree? is it online so we can see it?


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Here is a thread on white. Just be aware that what I said about the dilute gene causing liver is wrong. The dilute gene only produces blue. The B locus produces brown (liver) dogs and is not a dilute gene at all









Can a bicolor carry recessive white gene?


I’m doing some research into German Shepherd color genetics. I know it’s not widely considered appropriate to breed white German shepherd dogs but I was hoping to find a little help here. Is it possible to get white puppies from a bicolored and a white GSD? I’ve spent many hours searching and...




www.germanshepherds.com


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## Rabidwolfie (Apr 9, 2021)

My pup is a white shepherd. I can't get ahold of his pedigree because no one can seem to find it for some reason, and the owners of both of his parents seem to be absent minded about names.... But I digress.

Anyway, his mother comes from pedigree'd parents and they were both black and tans. She was the only white pup in the litter. (His father comes from a long line of whites). And since, as has been explained, it's actually a recessive masking gene, it's highly possible. It's even possible for both parents to carry the gene and never have a white pup.

Or, as in the case of my boy's mother, only one white pup. 

Just some anecdotal data to back up the links.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Rabidwolfie said:


> My pup is a white shepherd. I can't get ahold of his pedigree because no one can seem to find it for some reason, and the owners of both of his parents seem to be absent minded about names.... But I digress.
> 
> Anyway, his mother comes from pedigree'd parents and they were both black and tans. She was the only white pup in the litter. (His father comes from a long line of whites). And since, as has been explained, it's actually a recessive masking gene, it's highly possible. It's even possible for both parents to carry the gene and never have a white pup.
> 
> ...


It like when a random blue shows up in a litter or a liver. Unless both parents carry it, and both parents pass it on - it just sits there in the genes hanging out.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

Do you have pictures of other puppies in the litter? You have a mystery puppy. Are you going to end up keeping her or will she go back to your father?


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Tiny puppy , dishonest breeder


I dewormed her using safeguard yesterday , so far I have not seen any worms in her stool. I would have said to take in a stool sample before giving a worming product. At her age you must know what is causing the problem and treat that. Random worming medicine may mask it. Be sure to tell the...




www.germanshepherds.com




You found out he came from a puppy mill in Indiana so it's possible that it's not the correct pedigree


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Genes can be carried through many, many generations recessively without being expressed. I bred a Pike Schafbachmuhle daughter to a Yoshey Dollenweise son - got 2 dwarf puppies. Univerisity of Uchtrecht in Netherlands was doing a study on dwarfs - claimed they never saw a dwarf working line! Never with a Busecker Schloss dog - sire's dam was Busecker Schloss! After submitting DNA samples, pedigrees....they said that there are 3 very common dogs from very far back - prior to WL/SL splilt that every dwarf carries - even to 10 or12generations, and that was where the gene came from. I am sure that even without being expressed, a white recessive masking gene is somewhere on both sides of the pedigree. A breeder from Europe once told me that they would show up - and immediately culled, along with a blue or liver same way.

Lee


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## Sunflowers (Feb 17, 2012)

dogma13 said:


> You found out he came from a puppy mill in Indiana so it's possible that it's not the correct pedigree


Absolutely.

Pedigrees are for good breeders to keep track of lineage. They can take one look and figure out which dogs to put together, which combination would produce the best pups with the best conformation, temperament, and health.

They know which dogs carry what, way in the back, and know what to avoid combining.
They also use pedigrees to bring desired traits to the pups, for example, a certain sire can bring good temperament and solid nerves.

Puppy mills will just give you some random papers. The way some of these dogs are kept, it’s debatable whether the people who run these even know who is the sire.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

dogma13 said:


> Tiny puppy , dishonest breeder
> 
> 
> I dewormed her using safeguard yesterday , so far I have not seen any worms in her stool. I would have said to take in a stool sample before giving a worming product. At her age you must know what is causing the problem and treat that. Random worming medicine may mask it. Be sure to tell the...
> ...



There ya go. Full Stop.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

LuvShepherds said:


> Do you have pictures of other puppies in the litter? You have a mystery puppy. Are you going to end up keeping her or will she go back to your father?


She will go back to my father once we are over her health hurdle and she is housebroken.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> White is not a color. It's a gene that masks the true genetic color. However, there has to be that gene in the line ot produce the puppy. I would ask your breeder if the DNA for hte parents is on file with the AKC and Embark your puppy if there are no whites in that pedigree.


I have ordered a DNA test.


LuvShepherds said:


> Do you have pictures of other puppies in the litter? You have a mystery puppy. Are you going to end up keeping her or will she go back to your father?


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I don't know. I think it's recessive and a copy from both parents are required. So I guess a parent could carry it down. My question is how can the breeder not have questioned this? Were the parents white?? if you paid for an AKC registered puppy from a good breeder, I would be demanding DNA of the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Breeder/ seller claims they had a single white in the last litter too. But I don't trust the guy.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

Jax08 said:


> I don't know. I think it's recessive and a copy from both parents are required. So I guess a parent could carry it down. My question is how can the breeder not have questioned this? Were the parents white?? if you paid for an AKC registered puppy from a good breeder, I would be demanding DNA of the parents.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dogma13 (Mar 8, 2014)

Those puppies don't look like they could all be from the same litter.They are all so different from one another. It's possible the dam was bred with more than one male also.


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

She will be a loved pet , I'm just digging for info .


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## luluburkmier (Nov 9, 2021)

dogma13 said:


> Those puppies don't look like they could all be from the same litter.They are all so different from one another. It's possible the dam was bred with more than one male also.


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## LuvShepherds (May 27, 2012)

The white puppy is the same size as the other one. If they are from the same litter, they may all have been sold too young.


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