# female long haired gs



## convaz1 (Feb 12, 2013)

i have a black and sable long haired beautiful girl about 1 year old. i know that it is too early to mate her, but am trying to find out what i should be looking to do at this time. i have no papers for her, but one look tells it all. both parents were long haired. mom slim and dad about 120 lbs. mine will be about the same as dad the vet said. any one with some help please let me know
thanks for the help. i live in the charlotte area


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Curious, why are you interested in breeding her? 
The quality homes out there looking for puppies will only want papered dogs.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

breeding is much more than the pairing of two gsd. two things to consider are health problems, ie. hips, elbows, epi and dm to name a few. also a 120 pound gsd is not in the standard.


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## convaz1 (Feb 12, 2013)

*breeding*



msvette2u said:


> Curious, why are you interested in breeding her?
> The quality homes out there looking for puppies will only want papered dogs.


i dont know what you mean by quality homes, but i see a quality home as one that will love the dog and care for all of their needs. i have a quite a few dogs with papers and never did anything with them. my older shepherd who i just put down, had papers. this dog is a beautiful dog, while i know that some people wont want a dog without papers, others like i said dont care. thanks for your imput, and if u know anything that can help, i would love to hear it....
thanks again
bill


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## convaz1 (Feb 12, 2013)

*breeding*



huntergreen said:


> breeding is much more than the pairing of two gsd. two things to consider are health problems, ie. hips, elbows, epi and dm to name a few. also a 120 pound gsd is not in the standard.


thanks for all your imput in considering breeding! i have just put down my older shepherd, because of her hips. she was almost 14 years. when you say that gsd weighing 120 lbs, does that mean that they are not common. never had a long haired, my other one was only about 75 lbs....thank you for all of your imput
bill


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## mego (Jan 27, 2013)

Yeah 120 lbs for a gsd is not what a 'typical' gsd should be based on the standard. The heavier ones are more prone to hip issues because of the extra weight they're carrying. 

I really don't want to be the one to say it, but "one look tells it all" is a statement that really tells you NOTHING about a dog you're interested in breeding.Carefully assess temperament etc and how she would match with a male.


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## robk (Jun 16, 2011)

You cannot make an intelligent and informed breeding decision on a dog with no papers. How can you even tell if you are breeding a dog to its own sibling. How can you tell if you are back masking or line breeding on dogs of poor hip production. There are so many things that you cannot tell about when breeding dogs with no papers. It is literally a shot in the dark. Add to that the fact that many buyers are very informed and will ask you questions about the pedigree that you will not be able to answer. They will not buy from you and you will be left selling or giving them away to anyone willing to take them. The chance of them falling into neglectful circumstances is very high. Do you really want to contribute to the unwanted pet population?


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

convaz1 said:


> but am trying to find out what i should be looking to do at this time.


Spay her. You should be looking to spay her since she's old enough.


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## RubyTuesday (Jan 20, 2008)

> i have a black and sable long haired beautiful girl about 1 year old. i know that it is too early to mate her, but am trying to find out what i should be looking to do at this time. i have no papers for her, but one look tells it all.


An unregistered bitch shouldn't be bred. 'One look' most emphatically can't begin to tell much b/c informed breeding decisions are made only after analyzing & considering the extended families of the prospective parent dogs. For example, if your bitch has good hips that's a start, but only a start b/c savvy breeders will also be looking at the orthopedic history of parents, grandparents, siblings & in the case of a repeat breeding the offspring.

IF you're seriously interested in breeding, 1st educate yourself. When you realize how much is involved you might decide against it. (I did & so have many others).


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## JackandMattie (Feb 4, 2013)

I do believe you when you say your girl is beautiful.

So are the three adult rescues who live with me. And so are the dozens I passed over when I selected them.

And so are hundreds of others stuck in kill shelters across the country today.

Please spay your dog.


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## irickchad (Feb 6, 2013)

I don't think you should be breeding the dog from what I've read. There are enough GSD's in shelters that could use a home for you to be breeding one with no papers and background history. Just because two people can have sex and create a child doesn't mean that they should have, and it's the same case with animals. Also, input*


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

You will do what you want to do. I don't think anyone here will condone it. One look says it all: looking to breed a dog without papers, and a dog that is 120 pounds, but that screams BYB-wannabe. So is she black or is she sable? Or is she a patterned sable? Or is she a dark sable? I have heard of black and tan, black and red, black and silver, black and cream, black and brown, but black and sable is a new one for me.


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## LisafromNY (Apr 23, 2013)

*the papers and so on and so on...*

Look, check out CKC-Continental Kennel Club, you can get papers, respectful, real papers. AKC is the oldest and the most conservative club, however, I have known some breeders, who purposefully didn't issue paperwork after sale of the puppy. Unfortunately, not everyone pursues such great "PROFESSIONALS-NON BYBs". So what to do with the dog? All of a sudden the dog has no right to live?!!

As far as being a BYB. Everyone starts out in a backyard somewhere in the country. There are no "hereditary, professional breeders", as there are no "heredetary professional fortune tellers". You got to be joking, when you say BYB-I don't believe you get a college degree in GSD/Dog breeding, so how can you say "I'm a pro and you are not". You are a pro when you get licensed by your state... 

As far as worthiness of a dog: My dog is AKC registered, male, long-coat, SAR certified, CGC titled. Gentle, level headed-family dog, protector, and a great companion. Was bred several times, and guess what never a puppy unsold!!! 

To breeders that love ScH 3, he is unworthy, I hate ScH, so we never pursued it, but for people who want normal, healthy, companion and protector and not a mental case--he is the best, so is his progeny. ))


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## Kaimeju (Feb 2, 2013)

LisafromNY said:


> Look, check out CKC-Continental Kennel Club, you can get papers, respectful, real papers. AKC is the oldest and the most conservative club, however, I have known some breeders, who purposefully didn't issue paperwork after sale of the puppy.


I'm sorry but you are mistaken. CKC papers are basically meaningless. The dog's parents could have come from anywhere. When I was 16 my patents got me a bichon puppy that was CKC-registered and "health-checked." I find out later that although her breeder was a nice person, the sire had severe aggression issues and was purchased from a pet store. Mother was purchased from a mill. My baby girl died of ITP at age three and I feel terrible that I was not educated enough to know what to look for in a breeder. Please don't go encouraging people to get fake papers for their dog when they have no information on their genetic history. It perpetuates the tragedy of pups born without a real chance.




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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LisafromNY said:


> Look, check out CKC-Continental Kennel Club, you can get papers, respectful, real papers. AKC is the oldest and the most conservative club, however, I have known some breeders, who purposefully didn't issue paperwork after sale of the puppy. Unfortunately, not everyone pursues such great "PROFESSIONALS-NON BYBs". So what to do with the dog? All of a sudden the dog has no right to live?!!
> 
> As far as being a BYB. Everyone starts out in a backyard somewhere in the country. There are no "hereditary, professional breeders", as there are no "heredetary professional fortune tellers". You got to be joking, when you say BYB-I don't believe you get a college degree in GSD/Dog breeding, so how can you say "I'm a pro and you are not". You are a pro when you get licensed by your state...
> 
> ...


Lol seriously? CKC is respectful? The circles I run in don't even give UKC any respect (and they don't do Schutzhund in order to breed either, actually they don't do any kind of performance work).

Truth is, if you breed your dog once a year, charge next to nothing for the puppies (or like half what a responsible breeder does) you'll probably sell them. To who? To someone that can't afford a $1000 for a dog. If they can't afford $1000 up front for the dog, what can they afford later on for the dog if there are any temperament or medical issues? Probably less than $1000. So if the problem is even the least bit expensive, the dog will either get put down, or dumped at a shelter....what a wonderful life for that dog.

I look at a "higher" price of a dog as a barrier to entry. It proves to the breeder that you do have the money to take care of the dog. Not just the initial fee, but the $300 in vet visits that come in the first 3 months. And then the regular yearly $150 visit and any others that come up on top of that. Probably have the money to take the dog to training, make sure it grows up to be a model citizen, and don't dump it at the first sign of a problem. Or if the dog gets to be "too much" for that family and they feel like they don't give it the time it deserves...much easier to convince yourself you "only" paid $xxx rather than you "only" paid $xxxx. That one extra figure...its crazy how much more it makes people think about their decision.


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## LisafromNY (Apr 23, 2013)

*Fake papers?!!!!*

Kaimeju, CKC, ACA, Canadian Kennel Club DO NOT provide fake papers!!! I wonder where this came from...They have different registration opportunities/ways, that allow a dog to be a dog so to speak in our human world of "worthy" dogs, especially when breeders don't give papers. It is a certification process, you get registration, but you don't purchase non-existing pedigree!!! These clubs are real establishments, that have their events and standards.

The fact that your dog died at 3 y.o. is regretable and painful, but AKC registered dogs die young as well. The history of breeding dogs in general means inbreeding to begin with,that is how a lot of breeds were developed, so a lot of conditions are genetic, and no matter how famous the breeder is, no matter how famous the bloodline is, how many champs there are in generations, that does not guarantee that the super pup that you will purchase with super pedigree would not develop HD, ED, blindness, etc..., and can very well die young!!! No breeder ever gives you a guarantee of "Long years of health, and will live up to 15 y.o."

As far as predisposition and diseases are concerned, there are a few in depth genetic analysis test are available, but the question is how much money is in the pocket of those who really want to know...

Kaimeju, I understand your point, but Fake Papers-mean $$$ for fake pedigree, and registration#. Real Papers non-AKC: Breed Certification process and then your own papers. As I said before, unfortunately too many great dogs are reduced to 0, because papers were not issued by breeders. I think those customers should sue, but then again lawsuits=time +money. 

I just wonder, if the origins of GSD-2 strays bred by Stephanitz had any "Real Papers"?



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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

LisafromNY said:


> Kaimeju, CKC, ACA, Canadian Kennel Club DO NOT provide fake papers!!! I wonder where this came from...They have different registration opportunities/ways, that allow a dog to be a dog so to speak in our human world of "worthy" dogs, especially when breeders don't give papers. It is a certification process, you get registration, but you don't purchase non-existing pedigree!!! These clubs are real establishments, that have their events and standards.
> 
> The fact that your dog died at 3 y.o. is regretable and painful, but AKC registered dogs die young as well. The history of breeding dogs in general means inbreeding to begin with,that is how a lot of breeds were developed, so a lot of conditions are genetic, and no matter how famous the breeder is, no matter how famous the bloodline is, how many champs there are in generations, that does not guarantee that the super pup that you will purchase with super pedigree would not develop HD, ED, blindness, etc..., and can very well die young!!! No breeder ever gives you a guarantee of "Long years of health, and will live up to 15 y.o."
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


Continental Kennel Club and Canadian Kennel Club are not even close to the same thing....


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

LisafromNY said:


> Kaimeju, CKC, ACA, Canadian Kennel Club DO NOT provide fake papers!!! I wonder where this came from...They have different registration opportunities/ways, that allow a dog to be a dog so to speak in our human world of "worthy" dogs, especially when breeders don't give papers. It is a certification process, you get registration, but you don't purchase non-existing pedigree!!! These clubs are real establishments, that have their events and standards.


Canadian Kennel Club won't register your dog unless you have registration from another "approved registry." Just like the UKC. You can get "non-breeding" papers from almost any registry (UKC and AKC), but if your animal has a puppy, it can't be registered. 

A fake paper isn't really fake...it just doesn't have a pedigree behind it. It just states that so and so looked at your dog and thought it was a pure bred. It's exactly what I had to do to prove my boy was pure bred to the UKC...send them 3 pictures along with his AKC pedigree. They wanted to know for sure I was registering a GSD (although I could've just sent in any GSD's pictures).

Any "papers" that come from a registry that will certify your purebred without a true proof of PUREBRED lineage...has just as much carry as what the OP said..."anyone that looks at the dog knows." Sadly...not everyone should know when it comes to OP's dog...a 120 lb long haired bitch. A dog that is more than twice the weight of a standard GSD female and also has long hair. I'm sure that if I saw OP's dog, I'd know she's purebred...but in reality, not a stretch to think that something bigger was mixed in a while back in order to get that size.


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## LoveEcho (Mar 4, 2011)

LisafromNY said:


> As far as being a BYB. Everyone starts out in a backyard somewhere in the country. There are no "hereditary, professional breeders", as there are no "heredetary professional fortune tellers". You got to be joking, when you say BYB-I don't believe you get a college degree in GSD/Dog breeding, so how can you say "I'm a pro and you are not". You are a pro when you get licensed by your state...


A "pro" is someone who takes the time to LEARN what they're doing.

You're absolutely right, nobody starts as an expert. What the DO is learn the most they can about genetics, about the breed, about what to expect when pairing different dogs. You don't just say, "hey, my dog looks nice and is smart, I'm going to breed him." There's so, so much more. Yes, you start somewhere- but you do it responsibly and learn and use what you learn to find breeding stock that will FURTHER the breed, not send it backwards.

And this is coming from someone who has a dog from a BYB because I didn't know any better. The parents were friendly, one was a SAR dog. The guy had great intentions and his dogs were well cared for. He had no idea how to test the temperament of the dog... there's a whole lot more to temperament besides "friendly" and "good with kids." My dog is a nerve bag with health issues (he's the only one out of the litter who was not rehomed or surrendered due to fear issues). Yeah, he's handsome and friendly and great with kids and smart as a whip and a certified therapy dog with his CGC, and if I didn't know any better I'd probably say "hey he's a great pet I should breed him!", but he's a piss poor example of the breed. There is SO much more to the genetics game. THAT's what LEARNING teaches you about, not just slapping two attractive dogs together.

An amateur simply doesn't know the nuances of health and temperament to REALLY know what to look for. They won't be able to recognize true confidence, true insecurity, etc...and what you get when you have parents with different personalities. How many threads are there that are "oh, my dog is so protective! He barks at everything that moves, isn't that great?!"? Yes, there are AMATEUR responsible breeders, but that is AFTER they have spent a lot of time learning, being mentored, etc.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

LisafromNY said:


> I just wonder, if the origins of GSD-2 strays bred by Stephanitz had any "Real Papers"?


If you think thats the origin of the breed you're sadly mistaken. The origin of the breed was PROVEN, WORKING dogs. Its a working breed. And the breed standard is based on that, things that should be representative of a dog that is still able to work and perform the jobs it was bred to do. Schutzhund was developed as a test to prove the versatility and work ability of a dog to determine breed worthiness. 

Its not about the papers. Its about what the papers represent.


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## gagsd (Apr 24, 2003)

Above posters are correct. CKC as in Continental Kennel Club and ACA are not "reputable" registries. 
If your dog does not have valid registration papers from a recognized club, then you should probably not be breeding.


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## Jmcdermit (Apr 15, 2013)

Lin said:


> If you think thats the origin of the breed you're sadly mistaken. The origin of the breed was PROVEN, WORKING dogs. Its a working breed. And the breed standard is based on that, things that should be representative of a dog that is still able to work and perform the jobs it was bred to do. Schutzhund was developed as a test to prove the versatility and work ability of a dog to determine breed worthiness.
> 
> Its not about the papers. Its about what the papers represent.


Well said...Cabellas sire is Schutzhund 3 titled. I do not believe she was automatically born smarter than all other dogs, but I do believe his title means that she may have a good chance of being able to learn easier. She does seem to have the desire to learn and a high level of concentration, even at 10 weeks old. It is amazing to me every day how much she seems to be concentrating and absorbing information compared to previous dogs that I have owned.


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## Dainerra (Nov 14, 2003)

I think some posters are getting caught up on semantics again "byb" "professional"

A BYB is commonly meant as an uninformed (but usually well-intentioned) person who breeds their dogs. They generally have no idea about how to read pedigrees or match dogs based on their family genetics. They will breed to whatever dog is convenient to provide "just pets" that will be sold at a bargain price to locals

A Hobby Breeder is usually meant as someone who studies the breed. They know pedigrees, potential genetic problems in the breed, etc They are active in dog sports (whatever venue they may have chosen). They carefully match Sire and Dam and screen homes of potential owners. Pups are more expensive than a BYB but the breeder is probably not making any money because it goes back into the dogs in the form of trial entries, health testing, etc

A "Pro" is someone who gets paid for what they do. IE their JOB is breeding dogs. That means they have to keep the costs low and the prices high so that they make a profit. 

CKC (continental) and ACA are puppy mill registries, pure and simple. Yes, there are some unknowing but well-intentioned people who have bought these "purebred" dogs and are now breeding them and selling pets. Traced back, the vast majority however are from breeders who don't want to register with AKC. Some have been kicked out, some don't want to comply with the paperwork/DNA testing required when you have multiple litters from one dog, some because they can't prove that their dog is a purebred but they want papers so they can breed.

I actually attended an ACA show once, out of curiosity. They (ACA reps) were actively trying to sign up owners whose dogs didn't have papers. It didn't matter if the dogs were known mixed-breeds or if the owner just didn't know what kind of dog it was. Met a family with a sable shepherd that the rep was trying to get them to register as a Malinois because "german shepherds aren't that color" The family had bought the dog on a limited registration and the rep told them all they needed to do was register with ACA and they could breed her and make a lot of money selling the purebred puppies. This puppy was about 10 weeks old at the time and the rep convinced them that, within a year, they would make back the purchase price and then some. When I finally walked away in disgust, they were happily filling out the paperwork on their "Malinois". 
The leaflets being handed out by the reps touted the "greed" of the AKC and the breeders who use the limited registration feature. That the only reason that a breeder uses it is because they don't want any competition cutting into their profit.


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## MaggieRoseLee (Aug 17, 2001)

convaz1 said:


> i have a black and sable long haired beautiful girl about 1 year old. i know that it is too early to mate her, but am trying to find out what i should be looking to do at this time. i have no papers for her, but one look tells it all. both parents were long haired. mom slim and dad about 120 lbs. mine will be about the same as dad the vet said. any one with some help please let me know
> thanks for the help. i live in the charlotte area


Welcome to the forum! And if you do want to become a breeder in the future, that's great. But not with your current dog if she indeed has no papers. While I'm sure she is healthy and wonderful, with no papers and background you have no knowledge about the GENETICS behind her. So the fact both her parents may currently have Hip Dysplasia, or Mega esophagus, or crippling allergies, or German Shepherd Dog - Raising & Training German Shepherd Puppies, German Shepherds Info: Common Genetic Disorders in German Shepherd Dog <-- click that

Great info on http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...r/149386-should-i-breed-my-dog-flowchart.html plus http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/choosing-breeder/137533-things-look-responsible-breeder.html

The breed needs WAY more responsible and knowledgeable breeders, so be great if you take the next few years to be one of those.

Otherwise, shelters and rescues are full of just 'good' GSD's so we don't need more people breeding those!

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/gsd-rescue-information/


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