# Accepting Responsibility as a buyer when things go wrong.



## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Many breeders claim to breed for good health and temperament, and judging from their websites this claim is aptly illustrated. Often a buyer will spend much time talking/communicating with the breeder and comes away satisfied that they produce as advertised. Then when the pup arrives and time goes by, it becomes apparent that the pup is not what they were expecting. 

Serious temperament issues and/or health issues emerge. Buyer brings up the problems to the breeder who promptly offers a refund or replacement pup in exchange for the first puppy returned. But how can one part with their pup? They love them and have bonded to them, issues and all. They decline the offer, but now feel stuck and cheated, and vilify the breeder every chance they get for setting them up for a lifetime of disapointment and heart-break. 

I'd like to see discussion specifically as to whether the breeder can still be held responsible in this scenario considering that they promptly offered to make things right, but the new buyer did not accept their offer. 

There are many different situations where such a scenario could happen, and I'm sure, has happened, so the discussion can go in different directions depending on different cases. 

I think things to take into consideration is, were the buyer's expectations reasonable, were the breeder's offer to make things right reasonable? What did the contract say? What if there was no contract, but the breeder still offered a new puppy in exchange? 

Why would a buyer return a puppy, or why would they refuse to return the pup and then spend all their time and energy complaining and bad-mouthing when the final end choice to keep the pup was their own? Shouldn't the buyer at one point stop with the blame game and just go on? Maybe not? As for the breeders, should they always carry some responsibility? How would you act/feel/react/think?

Variables: after the fact of buying and receiving their pup, the buyer finds out that many dogs produced by the breeder are like hers and feels even more cheated, or, was this a one-time fluke of a puppy among dozens and dozens of healthy, sane, normal puppies produced by the breeder yet buyer still feels that the breeder somehow produced a defective pup on purpose to dupe her out of her money. 

Variables: what if one has young children that are attached to the pup - would they understand returning the puppy and getting another? What would that teach the children about responsibility, returning the less than perfect pup that did not fit the needs of the young family. But what about the liability of keeping a puppy that may grow up to be a fear biter when one has children? 

My own view on the above scenarios is that ulitmately, it is the buyer's decision and responsibility to find out about the other puppies produced by the breeder to assess the quality of the breeding program from wich they want to purchase. If they read hype on a website and believe it, then they can only blame themselves for not going deeper into the background of the breeder. If the puppy is not what they expected, they can only blame themselves, not the breeder. 

_Please note that even though I have posted as if I was directly addressing the reader in my discussion below, it is a very, very general "you", used for ease of conversational style and not addressing any particular person. _

If the contract states the puppy is to be returned for a replacement, then don't act all shocked and indignant when the breeder wants the pup back for a replacement. You should have known. 

If you really would like a replacement, don't keep your pup because you worry about how others will judge you for returning a puppy. If you keep your pup due to the worry of what others will say, don't spend the rest of your life blaming the breeder for your pup's issues - it was your decision to keep him and work with him through his issues. 

If the pup's issues is a fluke and you decide to keep him anyways, why would you blame the breeder for that? People always say that a pup is a crapshoot, but won't accept it when they loose the game of chance - if you can't accept the risk, get an adult with a known temperament and health. 

Not sure how what my feelings on the issue would be if small children were involved - that is a really tough one and feel for those who have found themselves in that situation.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

The way I look at it is this... if the breeder honors the contract, there is nothing to get upset about. Many breeders will even go above & beyond the contract, but it's their choice to do so.

For example, I once purchased a pup from a reputable breeder. The pup turned out to have severe hip dysplasia and we made the difficult decision to put her down. The contract stipulated a replacement pup, not a refund, but the replacement pup would have had the same father as the dysplastic pup, and I was scared to death to take that chance. The breeder totally understood, and refunded my purchase price in full.

Had he stuck to the original contract, and *I* refused the replacement pup, that's on me. I read and signed the contract. I'd still be sad about the situation, but no way would I go out and vilify the breeder. He held up his end of the deal.

Having said that, if I were a breeder, I'd go through **** and high water to make sure my puppy buyers are satisfied, probably to my own detriment. It's another good reason why I'm not a breeder... I just don't have the temperament for it.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Well ultimately it's buyer beware. I think the big problem for buyers is that almost all breeder websites say all the right things. Which is basically that they breed for everything under the sun that is a quality in a GSD, or any other breed for that matter. A lot of them say they are raised with family, they are socialized to other dogs, cats, horses etc...
I researched many breeders before I got the dog I have now and he turned out to be exactly what the breeder said. I feel to a great degree though that I was lucky.
People always say buyers should do their research but what does that mean? I was just reading the thread about iceberg breeders and in reading that it is obvious to me that to be a really informed buyer I would have to spend years learning genetics, breed history and more.
I think those who want a dog for a specific purpose like shutzhund really need to be careful or they could be very disappointed. Most buyers are probably family companion dog purchasers and don't want or have time to become experts in order to purchase a dog. 
I, after months of looking at sites went with a gut feeling but it could just as easily have turned out poorly. At best it's a crap shoot for the average buyer. I would be so disappointed if my dog had turned out to have a lousy temperament or nerves but after bonding I probably would have kept him anyway.


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## Sunstreaked (Oct 26, 2010)

This is probably going to get me in hot water here, but I do believe a lot of the expectation on the part of a buyer is related to price. 

If I pay $2,000 for a dog, it had better poop gold bricks!  I didn't pay that much for my first OR second car! 

With a rescue or a free pup, you take what you get. Any problems are just part and parcel of dog ownership. When you try and stack the deck so the odds of a healthy dog of good temperament is what you get by going to a breeder, I know I would personally feel a lot more resentment over any problems. 

I would not bad mouth the breeder, but I certainly wouldn't be happy about it.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

I have a cousin going through this right now. He bought a really beautiful pup from a breeder that does test for certain things, and does guarantee certain things. Well, a few months after buying the pup, my cousin starts to notice that she never has solid bowel movements. So he takes her to the vet and after various tests they determine that she has a intestinal disease of some sort (I'm not sure what disease). The vet doesn't seem to think that it will kill the dog, but she does have to be on special food, possibly for the rest of her life. She is also missing a toe. My cousin believes that because he paid quite a bit of money for this dog, he should get some money back. To me this sounds like a fluke deal. The toe thing could have very easily been an injury by a litter mate or her mamma. It doesn't affect how she moves. IMO not a huge deal. As for the stomach thing....I don't think you can expect a breeder to ever produce a perfect pup. No matter how hard they try, sometimes things beyond their control happens. I think expecting money back for every little thing is ridiculous. The dog can still do what my cousin bought her to do, which is hunt. In my opinion you chalk the stomach thing up to an unfortunate deal, but feel grateful it's not something worse. 

If there is a temperament problem and there are children involved, if you don't think that you can work it out of the dog or manage it properly, the dog goes. I'm sorry if that seems blunt, but no matter how much I love Sasha, I know my children (when/if I have them) will come first. 

As far as returning a pup goes otherwise....I guess it would depend on whether or not I could provide the pup with the kind of life it deserves. If it is going to need all of this crazy expensive treatment, that I just didn't think I could afford, I would return it. Otherwise, I don't think I'd be able to. Do I think people who do return pups for whatever reason are evil? Absolutely not! If someone judges someone for doing what they feel is right for their dog, well...they aren't in that situation. 

I think that people blame breeders too much. If breeders gave refunds for every little thing, they'd be running in the red all the time.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

NewbieShepherdGirl said:


> The vet doesn't seem to think that it will kill the dog, but she does have to be on special food, possibly for the rest of her life. She is also missing a toe.


I would have expected the breeder to be aware of, and forthcoming about the missing toe. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scope of things, but that's not something you just "forget" to tell the buyer. 

If I were the buyer of this pup, I'd be in contact with the breeder and letting him/her know the issues with the pup. I wouldn't demand (or even expect) any type of refund or replacement, but I'd at least expect the breeder to take a hard look at their program and try to determine where things went wrong. If they go merrily on their way producing puppies with the same issues, I'd not buy another pup from them.



> I think that people blame breeders too much. If breeders gave refunds for every little thing, they'd be running in the red all the time.


They tend to run in the red anyway, but yes, nature is a harsh mistress and does what she wants, despite our best efforts. Even with the best breeding program, bad things can happen, and if the breeder has exercised due diligence in their program, it's not their fault. Like my dysplastic puppy--she had a pedigree with solid A stamps, so how could I possibly blame the breeder for that?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Well, you could buy an adult with known temperament and health, out of great lines, healthy dogs, good longevity, and have the dog get an aneurism and drop dead, or develop hemangiosarcoma and be gone with no symptoms at all. I think at some point everyone who buys a dog needs to realize they bought a living, breathing thing, and the only true guaranty one could make is barring accidental death or euthanasia, the dog will get sick and die. We all hope that that time is somewhere after the 13 year mark. 

Temperament is a big contraversial question. Is it nature or nurture? Can it be both, or either or? And to what extent is it? Is it a dog that will run away when the baton comes out? Is it a dog that spins and chases its tail, or is fixated on shadows? Is it a dog that wants to eat every other dog it sees? Is it a dog that goes to pieces in a crowd? Is it a dog that barks aggressively at members of one sex including members of the household? Is it a dog that has bouts of rage with no apparent triggers? 

I think when we buy a puppy we have hopes and expectations of what we want that puppy to be and to do. Sometimes, our agility prospect turns out to be more of an obedience dog; our schutzhund prospect, an agility dog; our SAR prospect a nice pet; our show prospect, never getting the points. Maybe that is the individuality of the dog itself, training techniques, poor motivation, but the dog lacks something to put itself in that place we had chiseled out for it. I think that is just an oh-well. Maybe instead of making a dog what we want it to be, we should accept the dog we have and play to its strengths. I think that sometimes the more homework you do on choosing a breeder and a pup, the happier you can be and also, the more disappointed you might be if your expectations are firmly in place. I think that most people who do this much homework though, understand that it is indeed a dog, and may not fit into all the slots they are planning.

But what about a dog with a crippling temperament? A dog so scared and unsure of himself that he might do someone an injury if they move the wrong way. A dog with such high drive that it simply cannot relax. A dog that cringes and pees well past the puppy stage. A dog that needs to be muzzled when taken anywhere. A dog that needs lavender oil, DAP, or a thunder shirt or medication to ride in a car or get through a thunder storm or fireworks. I think that should fall under a genetic problem and should be referred to whatever the contract allows. Both parties agreed to the contract. If several members of the litter display similar symptoms, then it is even more suggestive. 

I do not have small children. I think people with small children know that they have them or are going to have them when they get a puppy. They should be making their choices with their children in mind. If they are unable to provide the pup with training and socialization they should return the puppy. If they have a seriously crippled dog with regards to temperament, they should return the dog. If they have a dog that falls under the contract as having an issue that can be returned for replacement, and they choose not to, then they suck it up. That is what they agreed to children or no children. 

I do not know if people with kids are more or less likely to give up a dog. I think kids can be used as an excuse either way. My contract is for hips and elbows, and if they have been diagnosed by x-ray and sent into the OFA, then I will replace the puppy out of a future litter. They can return the puppy or they can keep the puppy so long as they provide evidence that it has been spayed or neutered. I do not require that they take another puppy right away. I do not feel any more or less responsible because the buyer has children.


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## Lilie (Feb 3, 2010)

When I purchased Hondo, I had specific requirements. The breeder knew what my expectations were. With an entire little of puppies running around, my heart kept creeping towards the fuzzy leader of the band. The one that was missing toes. We agreed that if my vet advised the missing toes would create a hardship on the pup, I'd return him and pick another one. 

At 9 weeks old the vet was not able to make that determination. It was 50/50 that the foot would grow and fill in the missing areas and he would be fine....or not.

By 5 months we knew he would not be fine. We knew he would not be able to be shown or worked hard or fulfill any of the requirements I had made when I purchased the puppy. 

My breeder offered me a full refund AND I could keep the puppy. I told her no, I knew what I had when I purchased him. He had a visable defect. I was aware there could be a problem. My breeder offered (and still stands by) a free puppy when I'm ready. 

In my opinion, my breeder went above and beyond what is expected of a breeder. She was not sure if Hondo would have a problem as her grew and told me so when I picked him. But she still felt guilty that she _should _have known. I truly couldn't ask for a better breeder.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

It is interesting looking at this from both sides. I have been a buyer and I am a breeder. As a buyer I have returned 1 puppy after the vet exam revealed a very bad heart murmur. The replacement pup had a horrible temperament and was a coat (sorry, that wasn't what I wanted and they tried to claim she wasn't). The other I returned ended up so nervy that the breeder had to put her down at 4.5 months. Both times the breeder did refund my money. The first was something found out after 48 hours. The second was a misrepresentation and the third was an extreme case. I have also owned a dog that was dysplastic and another that didn't have the best of nerves. Both dogs stayed with me and I never expected anything out of the breeder. Maybe I am practical and am willing to accept that by wanting to share my life with living things I must take the responsibility for them good or bad. Maybe it is because I know that I do my research, pick good breedings and then accept that some times genetics don't always go the way I want. 

The only breeder I have wanted to bad mouth was the one that misrepresented the coated pup. When I went to return this pup they also started bad mouthing the other breeders in the area since they knew I was going to look at another litter. They no longer breed. Maybe because of this type of treatment of their buyers. 


As a breeder I want my puppies happy and that means the buyers have to be happy. If something comes up I, personally, would rather take back a pup than have someone who claims to be attached to the pup be unhappy with that pup for the rest of its life. On the other hand I would also like the buyer to be happy because a happy buyer will mean a happy puppy. Hope that makes sense.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sunstreaked said:


> If I pay $2,000 for a dog, it had better poop gold bricks!  I didn't pay that much for my first OR second car!
> 
> I would not bad mouth the breeder, but I certainly wouldn't be happy about it.


My most expensive puppy was also the one that was dysplastic. She was also one of my most cherished dogs and while I was disappointed I asked nothing of the breeder and accepted how the cards fell. Friends got her brother and he, too, was dysplastic (he was severe, my female was mild). He was the same way. He let the breeder know, but accepted that this time the genetics were not in his favor.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Sunstreaked said:


> This is probably going to get me in hot water here, but I do believe a lot of the expectation on the part of a buyer is related to price.
> 
> If I pay $2,000 for a dog, it had better poop gold bricks!  I didn't pay that much for my first OR second car!
> 
> ...


Money is funny. If it is hard to come by, people may have more expectations and be more likely to want some back, but not always. Sometimes people who pay the least are the most demanding. Sometimes people who do not balk at the price have more realistic expectations. I think it is just an individual thing and not an amount thing.


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## Samba (Apr 23, 2001)

I have figured out over the years, I pay for the puppy and walk away. Their problems are my problems even if due to a defect.

I have never had a breeder require the first puppy back. I have not as yet, gone and picked a replacement pup. I might be silly though.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

One of the first things I tell people is that there are NO GUARANTEES!!! I give a warranty, but no one can guarantee anything!

There are genetic problems in our breed...it is not perfect. IMO, most breeders TRY to avoid them, but everyone has a different perspective on what is an acceptable risk. For example, I pretty much avoid 2 famous males due to a genetic predisposition I deem too risky to accept....other people like those dogs, and accept that the risk is there - it is merely a matter of what IS acceptable to the breeder!!! 

I haven't had time to totally absorb and get into the 'iceberg' thread - I read the first post, and this is exactly what I am talking about....people look at the dog in front of them and breed it, ignoring or being ignorant of the possibilities in the resulting pedigree. I have a very difficult time finding a male I want to breed to my females, as I do look past the show results, the dog itself and the politics to find a pairing that I think fits both what I see in the dogs and what is behind them.

BUT!!! Things can still happen. A female can produce 20 pups that pass hip certs and still produce a pup with HD. The buyer MUST accept some responsibility for his choice as well as the breeder. It is possible. It has happened to most of us. 

I would never ask a buyer to return a pup with HD to get a replacement....a neuter/spay cert and the official OFA results, yes - the dog itself, no. If I would have a pup with some genetic issue that is unexpected, it would be a one on one discussion - if I have a pup that at 8 weeks is not what I think it should be, then it would be put down or rehomed for minimal cost; coats discounted, monorchids the same if I ever would get one. Dwarfs - a good home found or kept. Temperament???? This is my biggest concern, and I would not sell a pup if the temperament was faulty - I would keep him and work through it - or find a home suitable to the issue. 

I have only purchased two puppies, my now 10+ year old male, and a pup from Germany....so can say little about my experience in returning puppies. And the only dogs I have taken back were due to family/personal problems, not an issue with the dog. I know of a few I would give my eyeteeth to GET back though!!! LOL LOL

People do not intend to breed problematic dogs. They do it out of ignorance, laziness or greed...the buyer has to take responsibility for getting to know the breeder before he buys a puppy and understand the breeders goals and how what is being produced fits into his needs.

Lee


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## Andaka (Jun 29, 2003)

As a breeder, my contract has never required the return of a puppy. I do require some sort of vet records tho. I sold a show prospect puppy to a woman in California. She claimed that he had some sort of "ataxia" and could not be shown. I offered to replace the puppy with one from the next litter. She didn't want to wait. I asked for vet records -- she said I could call her vet but she couldn't be bothered to send the reports. I offered her a 2 year old male that was OFA Hips and Elbows and had a major and several minor points toward his championship -- she claimed I was just trying to foist off a dog that I didn't want on her. I repeated my request for vet records -- she just started telling people at the dog shows out there that I was a horrible and uncaaring breeder. I never did get confirmation that he had a problem, just her word for it.

Another buyer bought a puppy from the same litter. Her pup had elbow dysplasia, and she chose to do an experimental surgery, so I refunded half of her purchase price and still gave her a replacement puppy several years later.

BTW, none of the puppies in that litter ever reproduced, and the mother was spayed because of the problems she produced.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I warranty hips and elbows. I allow 2 weeks for people to get a full purchase price back and return the puppy for any reason or no reason. But after that I do not refund cash. I can sit on the price of a puppy for two weeks and then it is going back into the dogs. 2 weeks is long enough for someone to decide if they want the dog or not. 

I did have a pup with a heart murmur. I had had the pup to the vet for shots at least twice when I sold him. Each time the vet checked hearts. But the new buyer had taken the pup to her vet (I encourage this) and he heard a murmer. He told her that with all the trouble with her previous dog, she should return him. She was already attached to him, in just a couple of days. She called me on route to a specialist. 

I had never had a heart murmur before, I encouraged her to go and get the EKG or whatever. The whole time wondering what this would mean. I called my vet and the stud owner, and both assured me that it can show up later. OK then. When she called back, she told me that the EKG showed that everything was there and it looked good, it looked like it would clean itself up, just a growth issue. I told her I would extend the money back warranty for an extra month to give the heart a chance it do this if she wanted. She agreed. Maybe that was a mistake on my part as the puppy would be even more bonded to the owner a month from now. 

But she did not seem to want to give him back in any case, she said we would talk about it. As the pup was not paid in full, I was not sure what she meant by that, but I trusted her right away when I sold her the puppy, and was sure it would be ok. And it was. The puppy was checked again in three weeks and given a clean bill of health. The vet said there was no reason she could not do obedience or anything else with him. 

I went to see him graduate from his obedience class and he took second place even though he seemed to be the youngest puppy -- it was a pre-novice obedience judging with an AKC judge. We corresponded throughout the payments, her sending checks and a note, and me sending receipts and a note. She paid him off prior to his first birthday, and sent me pictures of him. I called her the other day and she loves the dog. 

I too think that it is most important to have a good match, and that the owners are happy with their dog. If the owners are not happy, then I will take him back. But, I am not going to pay for the dog, the bitch pup you bought from someone else, all their training, all their vetting including their hartgard medicine for the year that you had him. Sorry, but, NO. There are limits to keeping customers happy. That fellow got rid of the bitch pup, kept mine, and is super happy with him. I am a bit worried about the pup. I did not realize the guy was 80 when I sold the puppy. He did not LOOK 80, and I certainly did not ask. But, he told me he was after he had the dog. I call him now and again, the dog is three now or will be in August, and he goes all over with the guy and his wheel chair. He has let me know that he has a friend who will manage the dog for him if he needs to go into a high rise due to his health. The last time I talked to him, he is looking for another female, and looking for some Belgian Sheepdogs, do I know anyone who breeds them.


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## NewbieShepherdGirl (Jan 7, 2011)

Freestep said:


> I would have expected the breeder to be aware of, and forthcoming about the missing toe. Maybe not a big deal in the grand scope of things, but that's not something you just "forget" to tell the buyer.
> 
> If I were the buyer of this pup, I'd be in contact with the breeder and letting him/her know the issues with the pup. I wouldn't demand (or even expect) any type of refund or replacement, but I'd at least expect the breeder to take a hard look at their program and try to determine where things went wrong. If they go merrily on their way producing puppies with the same issues, I'd not buy another pup from them.
> 
> ...


I believe there was a conversation about the toe, but over time it has just bothered my cousin more that he paid so much money and she's missing a toe. 

I totally agree that he should bring it to the breeder's attention. Maybe it's a problem that's genetic, maybe it's not, but if I was a breeder I would want to know so I could check it out. I just think my cousin is a bit unreasonable in expecting some money back. Especially since this breeder was so good with him through the whole process, and seems to be really receptive any time my cousin has questions.


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

From a buyer's perspective, ..I haven't had perfect dogs, but I've had wonderful dogs. Dogs I would never think of returning or have regretted having in my life.

I've never had a reason to bad mouth any breeder that produced my dogs.

It's nice to have a warranty, or whatever, but for me , thats the last thing I really care about and I honestly would probably never use it.

I just want a decent relationship with a breeder, be able to pass on any health information that may help them out should issues arise. 

My feeling is, by now, I should have pretty good idea of what I want/like and who I would buy from. 

I guess I consider myself lucky with the dogs I've had/have.


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## Dragonwyke (Jul 21, 2011)

_i used to work w/a collie breeder here in florida from a rescue perspective. i have never "bought" dogs. they've either been owner releases to my care, rescues, shelter dogs, or as in this case breeder or show dog retirees/culls w/no where else to go. _

_over the years i had aquired different dogs from her w/several problems, aggression issues, skin issues, eye problems_. _one thing she said to me has stuck w/me all these years "if you're in dogs long enough, no matter how good your lines are, you WILL see everything eventually." she had been working w/collies for just over 20yrs when i met her and began taking in her culls so she wouldn't have to have them destroyed - this was over 20yrs ago, before rescue work was so prevalent as it is now. 

i think if ppl are taking on the responsibility of animals then they are taking on the responsibilities that come w/them. that includes the health and welfare. animals are not machines, you can't just oil them and give them a yearly tune up and expect them to just keep on chugging. they aren't any different than us, things go wrong, physically, psychologically, emotionally. as owner, caretakers, parents - WHATEVER we call ourselves - it is our responsibility to take care of them. we created them to be here FOR us, they didn't create themselves - or they'd still be wolves in the wild. 

so whatever the breeder did or didn't do doesn't matter. once the money changes hands and the dog walks out the door into your care, he and his problems become yours. just like your kids do at the hospital. gonna return your little girl cuz she starts w/epilepsy, diabetes or bone cancer? don't thinks so.... 

just my opinion. 

maria 
_


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