# Freezing Dog DNA/Artificial Insemination



## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

Ran into a fellow GSD owner with a healthy-looking pup who was apparently selling a litter as well. My male GSD is about 9 and I mentioned it would be great to have little pups of his but it is probably too late. Upon further conversation with him he informed me that he had his litter of pups through artificial-insemination whereby the stud dog had passed away some 20 years ago? but he uses the cryogenically-frozen & stored sperm to artificially inseminate his current female dog for litters.

He mentioned that although the insemination fees are rather high the cost to keep the sperm frozen is reasonable at a couple of hundred dollars a year in his veterinarians lab. 

*My questions:*

1. Is this a viable method to insure my dog's DNA should I wish to breed him later?

2. I haven't seen another GSD that looks exactly like mine therefore my sentimentality about possibly freezing his sperm. I think Golden Shepherd is recessive so it may be a lower % that a pup would look like him anyway. His health and temperament seem to be top-notch. Very affectionate towards others and animal-friendly (generally-speaking). 

3. Is this unreasonable for the non-breeding private-owner to do this and would my efforts be better spent finding a female GSD in the near future for mating?

This is somewhat of a blind grab at not losing him and will probably adopt a shelter dog/GSD should that day come but want to explore my options. 

Thanks for any advice!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

The problem is at your dog's age, is that he might be fairly sterile, so even if he's collected, there's no guarantee that there will be enough healthy sperm cells to do AI.

On top of that, he's very out of standard, and I'll assume not health checked or titled at this point. So the chances of finding a good female to breed him to is very slim. People that own excellent females have their pick of excellent stud dogs and there would be pretty much no reason for them to do AI with your male. So that means you'd be left with sub-par females that have probably not been health tested or titled as well. Remember, the female is 50% or more of the equation as she'll also be raising the pups.

You'll never get a clone of your dog. The best advice I've heard is that its actually better to get something completely different because that way you're not comparing your new puppy to its dad its whole life. So that if it does end up not living up to the standard your first dog met, you don't hold it against the dog subconsciously.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Your dog looks like a Mal/GSD cross. Do you have the pedigree information on him?


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## puffswami (Aug 26, 2010)

martemchik said:


> The problem is at your dog's age, is that he might be fairly sterile, so even if he's collected, there's no guarantee that there will be enough healthy sperm cells to do AI.
> 
> On top of that, he's very out of standard, and I'll assume not health checked or titled at this point. So the chances of finding a good female to breed him to is very slim. People that own excellent females have their pick of excellent stud dogs and there would be pretty much no reason for them to do AI with your male. So that means you'd be left with sub-par females that have probably not been health tested or titled as well. Remember, the female is 50% or more of the equation as she'll also be raising the pups.
> 
> You'll never get a clone of your dog. The best advice I've heard is that its actually better to get something completely different because that way you're not comparing your new puppy to its dad its whole life. So that if it does end up not living up to the standard your first dog met, you don't hold it against the dog subconsciously.


Thanks. Good real advice. Ironically, my dog has high ball-drive but his actual balls don't seem to have any drive. I've never seen him try to "get to know" a female in 9 years. Probably is an old confirmed-bachelor at this point. 

The pup I saw was also full black-mask which is extraordinarily beautiful because it highlights the GSDs eyes. So my taste isn't set in stone. Stinks when you start to see your dog no longer as a pup though. 



onyx'girl said:


> Your dog looks like a Mal/GSD cross. Do you have the pedigree information on him?


All GSD. Czechslovakian heritage so maybe more common over dere. But who knows' maybe there was a Malinois somewhere down the line that wasn't mentioned to me or in the paperwork.


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## I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO (Oct 4, 2006)

While I do agree with everyone else, I know how you feel! My dog is 8.5 - can't say that the thought of cloning hasn't crossed my mind


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you have a pedigree, I suggest going to pedigree database and seeing what siblings/parents/aunts/uncles/half-siblings are doing. At this point, I'm sure there are nieces/nephews that are breeding if it truly is an exceptional pedigree.

If you go to pedigree database, and enter the paper pedigree you have for your dog (his dam/sire grandsire/granddam, ect), it will make the connections for you and you can see all the dogs your dog is related to. Follow the line, possibly find a breeder that has a close relative and is breeding it...get a pup from them.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO said:


> While I do agree with everyone else, I know how you feel! My dog is 8.5 - can't say that the thought of cloning hasn't crossed my mind


My male is 5 and I want a do over....over and over if I had the option!


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

What part of that dog looks like a Mal???


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

the shape of the head and muzzle, earset, muzzle color....everything but the coat length and chest. Looks like it could be a cross.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

When we were thinking about it with Grim we had the vet collect sample (he said it would be a lot cheaper if I got it myself but I declined) and test it. I gather you don't use it you lose it.......he was sterile at age 8.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

You need to see a reproductive vet. We will only be guessing on here. The dog needs to be collected so the vet can examine the sperm count and motility and then s/he can recommend whether or not the dog be collected and frozen. If you want to pay for the collection and storage, than do it. The con would be you generally are paying a fee every year so if you never use the dog, money down the drain.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

If I could have, I would have cloned Csabre and Kougar - and Xito! Csabre is the only one left and she was 10 last October   I have progeny of hers - but they aren't HER! So getting an offspring of your dog is not going to guarantee that the pup will be anything like your dog.

As far as frozen semen and AI - your friend is very very lucky! I have done 4 breedings - 3 different females, 2 males frozen, 3 different vets - ALL BC Repo vets! - and NOT gotten any pups yet. I would like to try in the future again as I still have semen from both dogs. 

So not only would you have the risk of the pup not being anything like your dog at all, you have the problem of finding someone with a female who would use the semen, and the risk of getting a sucessful breeding....

I think the odds are better buying lottery tickets   

Lee


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Now that I understand dog training and GSDs more, and have gotten into IPO, I'd love to have a clone...an exact clone of my boy, and see how raising him differently would affect him. So, in theory the environment would almost be the same, but I wouldn't make all the mistakes I made with him as a puppy and do all the "no-no's" I know of now. Not that he's bad by any means, just would be interesting to raise him now that I have a better understanding of how to raise a working/IPO dog.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Lee, your experience mirrors the one a friend of mine had. Actually her bitch developed pyometra after the procedure and had to be spayed.

Didn't Lisa Clark have/use frozen Belschik semen? Or was the last breeding with him chilled or an actual breeding?


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I wouldn't blame the pyo on the procedure - although I know it would be hard NOT to! 

I think Lisa did a live side by side AI - not 110% sure....

I will do it again - when Kira or Panther are proven....Bengal is too close to both Xito and Ufo.....I'd like to get a Xito litter out of either of them, and an Ufo especially out of Kira....

Lee


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

I don't think she did blame it on the procedure, but it was a LOT of money all the way around! Not something you would want to do unless you had a very special reason.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Live side by side AI. I couldn't have afforded the frozen.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

I've done the frozen several times with no success. The procedure is outrageously expensive especially when you hear " looks like she isn't pregnant" after the ultrasound. I am still going to try it again - some fools never learn.


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## Chris Wild (Dec 14, 2001)

I have also tried frozen AIs several times, to the tune of thousands of dollars, and never gotten pups. It seems in general the success rates of the repro vets don't match the success rates of most actual breeders I know......

But that said, we have several straws of semen from our own male in storage that we plan to keep and hopefully use some day. Hopefully we'll be one of the success stories at some point.


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

From what I have heard, chilled is pretty successful but it has been really hard to get success frozen. Is that correct?


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Sure seems to be a problem in our breed. I hear about successful frozen AI breedings all the time, but not much in GSD. Club member did a frozen years ago with a BC (male was in Australia) and she got 9 pups.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

I have used Hutchinson in Cleveland - considered one of the tops in his field - nada no pups! A vet in Olny Md, and a BC vet here who has had ALOT of sucess with other breeds....I know Dean Calderon got frozen from Germany (Raiser's dog) and she got 3 pups I think using that, and a friend with Rotts has gotten pups 3 or 4 times with frozen with her....it just seems GSDs are really had to time for frozen.

Lee


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wonder how the person the OP was chatting with lucked out with 20yr frozen and what vet he uses.


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