# raw frustrations



## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I need some help figuring this all out. before I go crazy, lose my mind and change back to kibble! 

Dakota had been on raw for 5 months now. He loves to eat it, I don't mind smelling like beef heart and tripe all the time, or having a fishy house. I have come up with a preparation schedule that fits my needs. Overall the way he looks on it is amazing. Everyone says he has the softest coat and there is no way he is a Shepherd. He has great mental focus. I love it!

There is a dark side that we have been experiencing and it has me climbing a wall mad. :hammer: 

80-90% of the time we have great little bouncy poops or something slightly crumbly occasionally. The other 10-20 % is either a nice poop covered in a poop gravy (maybe one good meal, one bad?), or pudding poop, or a soupy poop. Each time I had more than one weird poop in a day or two, I would stop raw and feed cooked chicken and rice, sometimes with pumpkin added in until he was back to normal. The problem is.... I am so tired of having to wake up 2-3 times at night at least once every two weeks to let him out because his tummy hurts. BF has already notified me that if he keeps having all this tummy upset, he wants to go back to kibble. And on night I get up at 1am, 3am and 4am to let him out and then go back to bed only to wake up at 6am to go to work, I couldn't agree more. 

Here is all of his diet data: 25 Months old. 85lbs. low-medium energy

He gets anywhere from 1.7-2.0 lbs of food a day.
Protein sources include: Chicken (quarters), Turkey (ground, necks), Beef (heart, ground, liver), Canned Salmon, Canned Mackerel, Green Tripe (raw frozen).
He has had pork meat before with out a problem as well as raw trout and raw Tilapia, but recently I gave him some pork tails for part of his RMB and he didn't do well.

I have also been able to work up to a 5% OM ratio per meal without obvious poop problems. He usually doesn't get all 5%, normally closer to 3%. He also gets Fish oil and Vitamin E everyday. Raw eggs about 5x a week and plain yogurt 5x a week.

I had planned on giving gizzards with my next order as well as chicken liver, and chicken kidneys, but now I am worried.

Also, I can hear noises in his belly, not always but sometimes. He ate b0fast at about 9am this morning and I heard loud sounds at about.... 12:30 during our grooming cuddle session. 

If I need to change something or cut something out, or add something please let me know because I am going crazy over here.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

In addition: I also add a small amount of a cooked and mashed puree of White potato, sweet potato and canned pumpkin and that seems to help with getting better poops, but not always.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Just thought of another thing. He had an eye thing from jumping/falling face first into a lake a couple weeks ago and had an antibiotic eyedrop to take for 5 days, he finished that but now the past few days his other eye has a nice mucusy discharge! We are trying some more antibiotics for that eye, but if not change, then its back to the vets on friday. I can't win here.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Do the yucky poops coincide with the organ meats?
RAW isn't for every dog.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

nope..... as far as I can tell its random.

I even took out the OM completely and took the skin off the chicken quarters in case it was too much fat.... nothing helps. The only thing I haven't tried is increasing the bone significantly, but I have fed just quarters as a meal, not adding additional meat and no change.


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## allieg (Nov 4, 2008)

Hopefully Laurie will have an answer.
If suggestions don't work my answer would be that RAW isn't for your dog..It wasn't for mine.


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## natalie559 (Feb 4, 2005)

Hey Kira. I feel like your post is a little confusing and some of the info contradicts itself. You say it's great, no obvious problems- then that nothing is helping. 

You say it is random but I think that there has got to be a correlation in there somewhere. Maybe a specific ingredient, the overall fat content, being over fed, too much variety for Dakota, intolerant of lactose/yogurt. . .or as you mentioned



GSDSunshine said:


> an antibiotic eyedrop


I know oral antibiotics are notorious for digestive upset, not sure about drops. You could ask the vet.

Have you tried a probiotic daily other than yogurt?



GSDSunshine said:


> The only thing I haven't tried is increasing the bone significantly


I wouldn't increase bone significantly unless you knew he needed the extra calcium. I know you have the spreadsheet I made on nutrients but I am not sure if you use it. One of the things I learned when switching from variety free for all to examining the nutrients is that I was way over feeding calcium. So I cut the bones. Then she had loose stool. Some would say that is a sign that more bone is needed- but it wasn't, we had already determined that the bone was being overfed. What she needed was less fat. That's why I don't feed chicken, it's too fatty. Anyways my point was that more bone will likely cover up the problem but they wouldn't be the right solution.


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## Lin (Jul 3, 2007)

has he ever been tested for Giardia or Coccidia? I don't know if I would test at this point, but thats something I would do before giving up on raw. 

I told my mom her cat needed to be tested for those, and from my recommendations she was feeding Evo. She kept calling me about diarrhea that came and went, and saying she thought maybe she should switch the food or stop feeding canned. Every time she called I reminded her she needed to have the cat tested. Well, she finally did and it was positive for Giardia. After the Giardia was out of her system, the sporadic diarrhea completely stopped.

Natalie, can you send me the spreadsheet you referred to? I'd like to add it to my raw resources if thats ok!


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

He gets variety, but consistency. For example he gets the same meal every tuesday night. So he might have great poops on the same meal for 3 weeks and then the 4th tuesday he would have trouble. If it was one food source or a certain meal combo, he would be reacting every friday or every Sunday.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

So his earlier tummy noises and gas today just resulted in a nice liquid poop with mucus included.  yuk.


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

So you are feeding between 27 and 32 ounces?

I would suggest sticking with EXACTLY 27 ounces and see what happens over the next few weeks.

The #1 cause of loose stools on raw is OVERfeeding. 27 - 32 ounces is a big range.

For example, Spike gets 4.75 ounces per meal. If I give him 5 ounces he WILL have a looser stool next bowel movement. 4.75 is his limit (right now).


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I guess I should explain myself a bit better regarding feeding amount. 

it has been a downward slope of feeding not up. He was eating aver a pound of food a day, and he was fine. His original total food per day was 2.5% of 85 lbs (2.125 lbs). Or 17oz per meal. He was fine, poops were fine, weight was fine, but it was winter and truthfully, I knew i wasn't going to be exercising him as much during the winter. So I reduced it to just a pound (16oz) per meal. I know they weren't 100% accurate since Scott (BF) was the bagger/weigher last time. He tends to be a bit heavy handed sometimes (so I only told him an amount adding up to 14.5 oz per meal plus an additional .5 oz for OM). So total weight would vary between 1.9 and 2.0.

When I said 1.7 and 2.0 I was looking at my notes. Basically i didn't want to take him down .5%, So I took the middle amount between 2.0% and 2.5% (So between(the middle) 1.7 and 2.125).

If he was fine for 3 months eating 17oz per meal, I really don't think I am over feeding. It's not like he is a growing puppy going through spurts and then slower growth. he is just him. ya know?


Just wanted to add: Lauri I have been waiting all day on here for your advice. I really respect you and your knowledge about all that is raw and am always willing to learn more. So if you think I am doing something totally wrong and say so, i will actually stop and reassess what I am doing. What do you think of adding supplements at this point? (green tripe on a regular basis, probiotic (like petdophilus), enzymes???) I am still pretty worried about his gas and noisey belly lately... I know it might just be from his runny poop, but i always think worst case.


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

I like having game plans. And a step by step solution to problems. 

Step 1: Put him back on canned fish and rice/potatoes until solid stool(using fish instead of chicken to keep it chicken free).

Step 2: remove chicken quarters from diet. fish beef and turkey only. 

Step 3: Only feed 2% of body weight until things resolve or I see he is getting scrawny again. 

Step 4: Add in additional supplements to help him.

***Includes current Supp.

a. 3000 mg Fish Oil
b. 400 IU Vitamin E
c. Probiotic (Pet dophilus)
d. Missing Link Multiviatmin
e. Spring time Bug Off (won't be added right away but was going to add soon for tick help)

Step 5: Add in toppers to every meal or daily

a. Pumpkin
b. raw tripe
c. egg (or should I leave it out for now?)


Anyways that is my solution for now. it includes everything except the kitchen sink.

Does anyone feed prebiotics?


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## golfbum (Jan 11, 2010)

I understand going crazy! I am new to this raw diet and have been feeding my little girl (5 months) for about 1.5 months now. We go through spurts of runny poop on a weekly basis. We are feeding her 14oz meals twice a day. She does not have explosive poop and usually only goes once maybe twice a day, but it is runny alot more often then I think it should be! I know a raw diet is best and other then the runny poop and some itching she is doing great! I think I may be overfeeding as Laurie suggested for you as well, but she is a super active puppy and always on the go. You can easily feel her ribs and Im very happy with her weight. Should I cut down a couple ounces? She is getting exactly 55rmb 40mm 5om. 

Sorry for your troubles I hope it all works out for both of us! I know I will keep trying because my girl loves it and she looks amazing!:wub:


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## GSDSunshine (Sep 7, 2009)

Could be your ratios too. Maybe try less MM, like a 65/30/5 ratio (depends on your RMB source), or reduce the amount of OM a little bit, maybe only 3%. I had to be very careful with OM in the beginning and up the amount slowly.


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## Doc (Jan 13, 2009)

Add more bone to the diet - chicken backs in the morning, leg quarters at night. Hold off of organs until things get better. And only feed very small amounts of organs, fingernail size pieces.


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