# How important is prey drive in schutzhund protection?



## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

The protection instinct is different from prey drive I'm assuming. Does a high prey drive dog make a good schutzhund dog or does it even matter?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Yes, prey drive is very important but there needs to be balance.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Yes, prey drive is very important but there needs to be balance.


Balance between other drives, or balance in the sense that the dog must be calm & under control?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Balance in drives. I don't know if "calm" is the best word but the dog shouldn't be out of its mind either.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I like a dog with a bit of higher prey drive as they are easier to work in the other phases(ball drive and hunt drive go hand in hand with prey) so obedience and tracking make it much easier for a dog to do when the prey drive is there. Many dogs that are higher in prey are also a bit lower in the thresholds, so will react easily.
My dog has prey drive but it isn't huge. He is also a bit higher in threshold, yet activates very easily on the protection field.
In his protection work, he works in defense/ aggression and lives for the fight, not for the helper dancing or running around. 

A dog can get locked in prey and that makes it harder for the helper to bring out the defensiveness. Balancing it, but waiting for when the dog is ready is very important. You can't get the defense going when the dog is still immature in the brain, and you don't want to keep building up an already high prey dog when doing protection. I think that is the main reason some wait to start protection/defense....let them mature some before even doing any protection work. Shape the grips, and wait some.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Those nice full calm grips come from prey and also the dog's desire to control the helper (which also comes from fight/aggression). The power and crushing grips come from aggression/fight as does the strong barking in the H&B and the guarding after the outs. There must be balance. 

Jane, there are dogs with poor ball drive that have high hunt drive so both are not rooted the same way with prey drive. I have owned dogs with poor ball drive that have tremendous hunt drive. I have also owned dogs with extreme ball drive that had little real prey drive (a rabbit could run under their nose and they would just watch it) and not the greatest hunt drive.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Coke has insane prey drive for actual prey but he won't ever play with me with toys of any kind. He has no interest in toys (other than shredding stuffies and occasionally tossing a tennis ball himself...he also has a very "soft" retriever mouth) but he is obsessed with actual prey. If he even thinks he sees a rabbit 50 feet away he will constantly check the same spot for several weeks. When we are on a walk he's always the first to spot a squirrel or rabbit. My GSDs might lock up or lunge if it darts away and is pretty close but otherwise they aren't obsessed with prey or I just say "no" and they leave it whereas Coke pulls and whimpers and locks in on it until he's finally convinced it's gone (which might take a block). He's caught prey animals before and the GSDs have not.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

I made a drawing for you. Anyone feel free to point out anything I left out. Its a decent start anyway.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

I disagree, and maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean, with your saying that a dog in active aggression (or fight) doesn't learn as easily. IMO the ability to learn and to listen is rooted elsewhere.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> I disagree, and maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean, with your saying that a dog in active aggression (or fight) doesn't learn as easily. IMO the ability to learn and to listen is rooted elsewhere.


Doesn't learn as easily as purely in prey drive, or in food drive. The addition of the stress from the elements of defensive drive cloud the dog's mind a bit. Think how difficult it would be to *teach* running blinds (or doing kung-fu) when the helper is being very aggressive from the hot blind with posture and whip or whatever (or when you're thrown directly into a fight). Sure you can get it taught there, but its infinitely easier to teach it in prey drive, separated from the protection piece, and then put them together (or learn Kung-fu first in a studio under no stress). Any form of stress retards learning.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Does active aggression and fight = stress?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Liesje said:


> Does active aggression and fight = stress?


They don't equal stress, but there is higher stress present I would say. When I have a date going really well with a woman, and I *know* I'll be kissing her at the end of the date, there is a lot of (positive) stress present... but its not the same kind of stress as knowing an impending breakup in a relationship (negative stress)

Yes. When I use the word stress I mean it in the purest sense... included are both negative and positive stressors. So if I backtied my dog and put a raw ribeye a foot out of reach, thats still stress. When my dog is intensely searching for an article to "get paid", thats still stress. Its just positive stress. In other words, I suppose I could define stress as the measure of unsatisfied drive level. Getting the ball, barking like an idiot when you're supposed to be quiet, getting dirty in the blind, those are all ways the dog "leaks" out that stress on their own.

Stress is not a four letter word


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

> Doesn't learn as easily as purely in prey drive, or in food drive. The addition of the stress from the elements of defensive drive cloud the dog's mind a bit. Think how difficult it would be to *teach* running blinds (or doing kung-fu) when the helper is being very aggressive from the hot blind with posture and whip or whatever (or when you're thrown directly into a fight). Sure you can get it taught there, but its infinitely easier to teach it in prey drive, separated from the protection piece, and then put them together (or learn Kung-fu first in a studio under no stress). Any form of stress retards learning.


I don't think I agreee with one thing you said here. How "well" a dog learns something is related to the level of stress and that doesn't mean there is none. 
Of course, it depends on the dog but the dogs who are more genetically equipped to work in protection, excel when there is stress.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> I don't think I agreee with one thing you said here. How "well" a dog learns something is related to the level of stress and that doesn't mean there is none.
> Of course, it depends on the dog but the dogs who are more genetically equipped to work in protection, excel when there is stress.


I didn't say there is none. I said, "as easily". There are many many scholarly studies documenting how stress impairs learning. Stress releases cortisol, cortisol directly impairs long and short term memory formation and retrieval. Its not my opinion, its a widely studied medical fact... and it crosses all species. What you meant by your second statement, is actually "some dogs experience lower stress during protection and thus learn and remember learned behaviors more readily". That is what actually is happening though it may seem the same on the surface when observed, as your statement.


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Prey is very important. It balances the drives, and gives you the foundation to work a young puppy in Schutzhund. I believe the majority of dogs begin "protection" in prey, and as they mature and have a solid obedience foundation the helper will encourage the other drives (defense, fight, etc).

That's my understanding, anyway.


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

Lots of good information here. 
The reason I started the post is that I've just begun proper bitework with my 19mo female. She's passed BH/AD and is very good at the obedience part of Schutzhund. She's also good at tracking. Both of which I was mostly able to teach myself. Bitework I couldn't teach so I pretty much kept her in puppy bitework at our club until recently. (I only joined the club about 6 months back). Puppy bite involves biting the wedge or noodle when teased, totalling about 3 bites per class (week).

There are similar aged (even younger) dogs in the club that are already doing 2-blind searches, escape, long bite etc, so I asked the one of the handlers if he could see how my dog would perform at a blind. It was almost funny, my dog sniffed around the blind and sort of looked at the handler, she was constantly looking back to me (perhaps for some direction) and there was no bite.
I know she has high prey drive because she LOVES to chase rabbits and squirrels and occasionally our cat. I think she just wasn't sure what to do.

Anyways, I started going to an extra class (couple of club members train during the week) and she has really started to improve, and after about 3 classes she is advancing into the blind barking, sitting before the bite, taking the bite, also doing escape and long bite. She definitely enjoys the bitework, it just doesn't seem like it is in her "instinct" rather she is learning it as she goes along.
I'm being patient and I can see she is improving well, so I feel she will get there in the end.
Her tracking was similar, I had to take it slow ( I started off a bit too gung ho, with a lot of tracks (4/day 6 days/week) and she wasn't progressing well, so I scaled way back 1 short/1 long 3 days/week) and she has really come on well.

To cut a long story short, yesterday we were on our usual walk and she managed to catch and kill, not 1 but 2 squirrels and almost a rabbit (only I called her off because it was close to the road). She has never managed to catch and kill before and I'm wondering if she just got lucky or was it related to her improvement in bitework (we had a class just that morning where she showed some real advancement).
I'm also wondering (outside of any health aspect of killing the squirrels) whether I should continue to allow her to kill, i.e if it will have a positive affect on her bitework or not?
Does anyone think that one feeds off the other, improved confidence in bite, increases prey drive which increases bite work drive?


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

pfitzpa1 said:


> Puppy bite involves biting the wedge or noodle


 I always teach from a very young age that biting the noodle is *never* acceptable


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## pfitzpa1 (Apr 26, 2011)

hunterisgreat said:


> I always teach from a very young age that biting the noodle is *never* acceptable


Tube/tug, maybe noodle was the wrong word


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

The female I just put the IPO1 on works in fight/active aggression. She wants to dominate, over power and control the helper and she is very clear about what she is doing. She learned blinds initially with a helper on the field. She learned it VERY quickly and this is how I have taught blinds to all of my dogs. I did fine tune the blinds with a ball since I have the blinds, but not access to a helper all the time. 

We have been having a tough time with her and the side transport. She felt she needed to be in front of the helper keeping him from moving. I have watched a few other handlers use a ball to reward the dog instead of the bite so we tried this with Deja. I actually didn't think it would work, but it was worth the try. She was correct, helper dropped the ball, it fell to the ground and she stared at the helper. She did actually catch it one time and spit it out and watched the helper. This is a dog working in fight/active aggression. No stress because this is who she is and nothing had to be forced or brought out or developed. 

I have watched this dog also in how she interacts with other dogs, people and my chickens, but that is probably a discussion for another thread.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> The female I just put the IPO1 on works in fight/active aggression. She wants to dominate, over power and control the helper and she is very clear about what she is doing. She learned blinds initially with a helper on the field. She learned it VERY quickly and this is how I have taught blinds to all of my dogs. I did fine tune the blinds with a ball since I have the blinds, but not access to a helper all the time.
> 
> We have been having a tough time with her and the side transport. She felt she needed to be in front of the helper keeping him from moving. I have watched a few other handlers use a ball to reward the dog instead of the bite so we tried this with Deja. I actually didn't think it would work, but it was worth the try. She was correct, helper dropped the ball, it fell to the ground and she stared at the helper. She did actually catch it one time and spit it out and watched the helper. This is a dog working in fight/active aggression. No stress because this is who she is and nothing had to be forced or brought out or developed.
> 
> I have watched this dog also in how she interacts with other dogs, people and my chickens, but that is probably a discussion for another thread.


The end picture for any dog should be aggression at IPO1/2/3 level. But starting out in aggression simply will not teach as quickly as it would have had you taught a routine in prey. If she was quick to learn will being aggressive, she'd have learned quicker in prey at first. The trouble is, once you turn on the aggression switch, you cannot turn it back off again. Once aggression is made to be the state of mind during protection, you will be very hard pressed to turn it off ever again. 

I have a really really dominant, really really aggressive young female I also did IPO1 with last month. Teaching in that state of mind is harder. And guess what, our side transport is a bit of a struggle too. The bark and hold, as well as guarding is by very definition highly stressful. The dog must contain the desire to bite (or flee), when all they really want to do is bite (or flee). The lack of satisfying their own desires is very stress-inducing. Guarding like is done in SchH is entirely unnatural for a dog. Dogs that pee on the blind, lay down, punch the sleeve or bite at it... that is all de-stress behavior on the dog's part because the threshold for how much they could contain on their own was passed.

And 100% understand your dog and any other dog working in aggression is under stress. My dogs all experience stress (see, I went first! ) Stress is not a bad word, stress is not a sign of weakness, stress not an insult. It makes me laugh when people say "oh no! not my dog! my dog knows no stress!" as though acknowledging stress is somehow negative. To me that is no different that saying "My dog is hungry". You just don't understand stress in terms of the full definition of it. To experience no stress to stimuli is to be dead. Eustress and distress are the technical terms for positive and negative stress, respectively. Your dog experiences both during protection work, as do all other dogs that are alive. Stress, both forms of it, retard learning do to the physiological responses the body does in response to stress. Distress impacts learning much more. Thats why we don't teach/train in defense. Eustress impacts less, but does have a significant impact.

Helmut Raiser: "A negative side effect of aggression in dog training is that it greatly reduces the dog's learning ability" Exact quote


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

To expand the quote:
We all want to see our dogs work aggressively against the "bad guy," but we need to keep in mind that that is the final picture we want to see. Too often high quality dogs don't reach their potential because their owners want to see them aggressive right from the start, forgetting about the fact that the dog has to learn many intricate exercises before he can walk onto the competition field. So if possible teach the dog an exercise first, then make him perform it aggressively.


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## Vandal (Dec 22, 2000)

You are not comparing medical studies on people to dogs are you Hunter? 
I do not believe a dog does not feel stress. For animals, not feeling stress or danger would be a good way to become dead. I believe some have the ability to work thru it faster and better than other dogs and that comes from their genetics. They have the drive and heart to overcome the stress. If you want to talk about people, the same holds true for how well some can process stress vs the weaker ones. 

If you apply stress and do not allow the dog to work through it, yes, that can of course, impede learning and results in what is known as "learned helplessness". I have seen PLENTY of people do that to their dogs. I have seen people stress their dogs doing motivational training, and I have seen dogs who are not genetically designed for that kind of training really struggle, only to become super dog when another, more stressful method is used. 


I train the blinds like Lisa does and my dogs learn very quickly that way because the aim in protection is not the ball, it is confronting and fighting with the helper. You have to train the dog in his primary drive. You can't take a serious dog and turn him into a prey monster or use a method that does not motivate the dog but that "seems" to be what you are saying here. 
Years ago, we started the dogs in aggression and I STILL do that. There were some FANTASTIC dogs doing PROTECTION WORK, not playing an extreme game of fetch. Those dogs had fight drive and courage which gave them the ability to be able to think and LEARN under stress.


To answer the OP, the purpose of prey drive in protection is to channel the aggression and fight into prey work. That is a natural way to train the dog and dogs learn better when the training is conducted in this fashion. It is not about avoiding stress or only making "positive stress" for the dog, it is about showing the dog the path out of the stress or how to control the level of stress, ( controling the fight), and again, making sure the dog you are working has the genetic ability and intelligence to be able to do that. 
It IS an instinct but it seems, either people are not working dogs that have that anymore or they are so busy trying to train it in, they are completely missing the dog's natural abilities. They are trying to train behaviors into the dog vs breeding it in or finding one that has the genetic ability to excel in protection and the rest of the work. This genetic ability is known as "genetic obedience" but it is NOT just about obedience. It is about the dog getting drive satisfaction in the work itself. Where doing the work is the "reward". It is really discouraging to read these boards and see so many people who have completely lost sight of what a GSD is supposed to be BORN with.
I don't think killing critters is going to help your protection work but maybe others do.


You are talking about YOUR dog Hunter. I have worked and seen plenty of dogs who learn and function MUCH better when they are taking things seriously especially the dogs with high fight drive. I have also seen what you are describing but you are making it sound like ALL dogs function one way and that is simply not correct. I'd like to keep arguing this but I have too much to do. Keep working dogs Hunter and you might change your mind. 

As for Helmut, he has changed his mind plenty about the dogs over the years and because that is only one sentence, it is difficult to tell if it is taken out of context or not. I will say this though, if there is only work that makes aggression and stress, the dog will struggle, it is about channeling it and you use prey drive for that. 
That book is so poorly translated, I am surprised anyone can understand any of it.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Vandal said:


> You are not comparing medical studies on people to dogs are you Hunter?
> I do not believe a dog does not feel stress. For animals, not feeling stress or danger would be a good way to become dead. I believe some have the ability to work thru it faster and better than other dogs and that comes from their genetics. They have the drive and heart to overcome the stress. If you want to talk about people, the same holds true for how well some can process stress vs the weaker ones.
> 
> *Studies on how the brain works are pretty applicable across species. The different regulatory hormones work the same across species. In fact they often work when physically derived from another species. Thats why bodybuilders shoot horse testosterone. We owe almost every drug on the planet to studies done on mice and dogs and pigs and primates... didn't think it was a one way applicability did you???? The rest I agree with. Except its mix of raising the threshold for how much stress can be taken, and learning how to lower that stress through some outlet. Biting a bite sleeve, or punching a hole in the wall, or drinking a 12 pack of budlight, or spinning infront of the helper, or meditating... all stress reduction techniques. All effective at lowering stress, some not in a manner that is desirable
> ...


It makes perfect sense to me.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Ultimately, its fruitless to discuss much when folks turn conversations into "my dog is a fearless aggression monster that learns best when put under intense pressure from 9 weeks forward! Maybe your dog feels stress because he's inferior to mine! Maybe you should train longer to get to my level of understanding!".

In doing so, all that is accomplished is we both learned nothing of the other's point of view or experience. Insults overwhelming serve only to close the mind. When people pull the "perhaps your dog is weak nerved" card, you have assured the other party is no longer listening, but now too busy defending themselves. Ironically, thats manifestations of stress


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

Here you go http://www.ecma.eu.com/Comparison o... three different training methods in dogs.pdf

A nice powerpoint distillation of a scientific study conducted regarding obedience AND protection training, learning, and levels of stress in police handled belgian malinois (measured through salival cortisol level). You can find the original research if you can stand reading 130 pages of scientific research paper, however if "Der schutzhund" was too much, then I don't think you'll have the patience for the full study. The original paper is very good though, I strongly encourage reading it.

And here is a nice short explanation of cortisol and its effect on learning, albeit with humans. Humor me and believe it applies to dogs until I find a study suitable to your requirements

http://www.brainleadersandlearners.com/general/the-brain-on-cortisol/


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

http://www.pawsoflife.org/Library/Behavior/Haverbeke_2008.pdf

We are getting closer.. study on cortisol levels of military working dogs when presented with new stimuli, and how they adapt to normal over time (i.e., raising the stress threshold as I mentioned earlier)

DOn't have time to read this one (gotta go work 20 dogs this evening after all... gotta keep learning), but I think this is worth reading http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/faculty/josephs/pdf_documents/jones_josephs.pdf Judging from the read of the abstract, its regarding cortisol, testosterone, and how they can influence handler-dog interactiosn. "Interspecies hormonal interactions between man and the domestic dog (Canis familiaris)"


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

Hunter, we will have to agree to disagree.


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## hunterisgreat (Jan 30, 2011)

lhczth said:


> Hunter, we will have to agree to disagree.


Nothing wrong with that


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

hunterisgreat said:


> The end picture for any dog should be aggression at IPO1/2/3 level. But starting out in aggression simply will not teach as quickly as it would have had you taught a routine in prey.


Depends on your goals, I guess. If the end goal is performing the routine cleanly, then by all means prey will do and get you pretty dang far. 

For me the end goal *is* the IPO3, and for me that means a balance of prey and other drives. Now I want my training to play to the dog's strengths, but also attempt to achieve balance. For me it is not about "developing" drives but pushing the right buttons and the right time and channeling them. Same thing with bite, I don't see the point of "bite development" work with a young dog, only pushing whatever buttons to get a powerful bite and fight.


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## lhczth (Apr 5, 2000)

And if a young dog has the right genetics, bite development is not needed.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

and with others, that is something that has to be worked on, and if the dog is so high in prey it needs to be addressed.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

hunterisgreat said:


> * He can take any amount of pressure you could throw at him and not even consider cowering.*


A dog like this has never walked the earth. 

** comment removed by ADMIN.**


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Fast said:


> A dog like this has never walked the earth.


Also, I like to own *dogs* not machines. "Extreme drive" or whatever...I do like my dogs to have some form of self-preservation instinct.


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Fast said:


> A dog like this has never walked the earth.
> 
> ** comment removed by ADMIN.**


Much to my chagrin my last post was considered rude by the "ADMIN". So let me try again. 

People are trying to help you and you are being resistant; misconstruing their generosity as condescension. I believe you might, in some circles, possibly, be thought of as a little bit off base. 

And if you would be so kind as to allow me another observation. You said....



> *He can take any amount of pressure you could throw at him and not even consider cowering.*


*

*It is this statement and quite a few more that I will not quote here, for fear of offending or hurting anyone's feelings, mental health or religious beliefs, that could possibly cause one to believe that you lack the knowledge and basic dog sense that you believe that you have. 

Please take the knowledge and advice given as the gift that it was meant to be. Our Hebrew brothers and sisters call it a mitzvah (an unselfish good deed). Please don't let you ego get in the way of your education.

Hope this post finds you in good health and open to the posibility that you might possibly need to find the grace in your dear heart to humble and avail yourself of the advice and wisdom that others are so very kindly imparting to you. 
I pray you don't find this post too astringent for you palate. If it is please contact me on PM. I'm sure I could make it crystal clear to you in that area of this forum. 

Have a scrumdilious day! :angel:


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## Fast (Oct 13, 2004)

Liesje said:


> Also, I like to own *dogs* not machines. "Extreme drive" or whatever...I do like my dogs to have some form of self-preservation instinct.


I would love to have a dog that could take any amount of pressure and stress!!! I know that if you truly had a dog like the only way you could train him would be inductively. There is always a certain about of stress and pressure in all dog and handler relationships that keeps the handler in the dominate position. If you had a dog like that and tried to correct it or make it do anything that it didn't want to do, you had best have the EMTs standing by.


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## Smithie86 (Jan 9, 2001)

I think one of the things that is prevalent is that trainers/helpers/handlers are always learning. Even those that have been hands on for years are constantly learning, adjusting. Takes time, travel, work in different locations, work on different dogs.


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