# NEW, slower growth rates, on RAW Diet vrs Dry Puppy Chow, and benefits...



## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

I have done a bit of reading, searching, and listening to my Breeder over the months with years of research.. I approached the Raw Meat diet with an open mind, and now find some proof: *It has really saved my 10 year old GSD Alpha Male Cody, that had been going down hill pretty quickly for the past year. There is a Testimonial in the Raw Diet section.. OK,* I am convinced that the kibble is extremely toxic and allergenic to some dogs, without a doubt, first hand Testimonial from real time empirical testing... I am also convinced that it can prolong the life, extend the life, of some dogs.. My feeling is why chance it with the pup, he may react badly to the dry food. I am currently on about 90% Raw, beef meat and bone, some chicken, some lamb, some organ meats (now about 10% or less), and about 10% the dry kibble of the best I can find...

Now the contentious issues: While I am convinced a dog could and should live longer on the Raw diet, some dogs could get along fine on the really high grade dry kibble, with just some goodies now and then... This is a contentious issue, as proof would be hard to come by in that you would have to have a dry pool of a thousand and the Raw pool of a thousand of comparable genetics, to get a good basis for the study. *One that may not be so contentious has been put forth by a few Vets who are favorable to RAW: That the growth rate on the Raw diet is slower, therefore more beneficial to joint and bone health long term... *!! 

They claim the competitive high protein (seen up to 28%) and larger calcium amounts, stimulate early powerful growth in the puppy... This is competitive puppy chow results that stimulates sales of their Brand, but it is not good for the Pup. Growth (they say) is genetically determined, and on the raw diet the growth rate is slower but much healthier.. Stronger joints and ligaments and so on...

*There, if this can be substantiated it further pushes the argument for the Raw Meat and bone diet in Puppys from the beginning.*
*Comments?*

Kind regards, loving my 13 (14 on saturday) week old Puppy, Black Working Dog sort, showing smarts beyond his age. Hope this is a help...


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## NancyJ (Jun 15, 2003)

Most large breed puppy foods have proteins in the 25% range but several are higher such as Orijen. Don't overfeed the dog and he won't grow fast. They are now designed for slow steady growth and not fast crazy growth.

There are plenty of raw feeders and plenty of kibble feeders. So don't worry about making an argument for or against; feed what you feel is right for your dog.

The main thing I think is important for a puppy fed raw is to ensure you have the right mix of bone and meat in the diet and the right kind of bone. 

I am convinced a puppy of mine developed osteochondrosis from way too much calcium and vitamin C in her raw diet.......things have evolved since then towards more muscle meat than the original BARF book I think and we know puppies are not as good at managing calcium excesses as older dogs.


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## Jag (Jul 27, 2012)

Yeah, I'm not going to buy into that argument. My wife's mixed breed has been on Pedigree forever. Good coat, never been sick, overweight, had a bad coat, etc. Grim's growth has been slow and steady on Innova, a lower protein food. Whatever your dog tolerates and does well on is the 'right food'. I've been told even by people selling dog food that it's more about genetics with growth rate than what they're fed.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Puppy Chow is about a bad as you can go. I mean if someone did a study about whether kids do better on a breakfast of cereal and toast, as opposed to toaster shakings, well, I don't think we should be surprised at the results.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> The main thing I think is important for a puppy fed raw is to ensure you have the right mix of bone and meat in the diet and the right kind of bone.


That would be my main concern, as well.
There's nothing wrong with a nice mid- to hi-quality puppy food, although for us, we'd feed adult Kirkland to a puppy before the puppy food for slower growth.


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

im feeding raw, and while concerned, im not paranoid. its really not that hard, Im feeding my 9 week old a meal of about 8 ounces necks, then a meal of about a 8 ounce leg, and a meal of liver, yogurt, tripe, and a glucosamine/chondritin/msm supplement. and its not science, I can mix things up a bit and skip a meal etc. Im watching her weight which is important, off the top of my head she was 12.1 at 7 weeks and around 18 lbs today at 9 weeks.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Well, I AM concerned...
I am trying to do the absolute right thing by this pup. I live with regrets about my first two GSDs (still alive) and would like to minimize that with this pup..

I must admit, I am giving him the highest quality puppy chow I can get. I have moved through Royal Canin, and Science Diet, when I found out they were not the high grade they claimed... And am now doing Nutro, a 'natural' dog food here, first ingredient dried chicken meat, the brown rice, then all the other stuff and vitamins and so on..

I am trying to get him to eat as much of the Raw Meat and bones as possible, and supplementing with the high quality puppy chow as well, and cooked scrambled eggs, and other things...

*Thank you all for you input,* it is a tough call, made ever harder as some dogs can thrive on the dry food as they are all different. The Raw Meat and bone diet has saved my Alpha Male 10 y.o. "Cody", and even today is doing better still. He is happier, more active, coat has nearly stopped shedding, I thing he is making a comeback so to speak..

My new Pup was 13 kg at 12 weeks, about 28 lbs. Now at 14 weeks, I need to weigh him. *I just thought that (14 week weight x 2 plus 10 lbs) might go out the window if the growth rate was slower on the Raw diet...* Also, I am concerned that he might not be getting all the vitamins and such that he needs, another reason I am throwing in the handful or two of kibble...

Thank you, a concerned Parent (again) with my great Pup... Black GSD.
At 14 weeks, he is good on security, fetches, sits, stays for 10 seconds, and is starting to heel well on and off the lead.. Two good walks a day, fed twice a day, and play time mid day.. Love him..!!


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

I bought pupsup hylasport and glanzen as supplements. Im not using the glanzen yet because I dont think a puppy on raw needs it, itd be overdose. Ill probably start at a low dose soon.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Hello Volcano,

Sorry, but what are you talking about?? Down here on this little out of the way island, I have never heard of either one... You been smokin that stuff again Volcano??? :rofl: 

No, seriously, what additives are you thinking about? And what do they do?/

Kind regards, dancing with wolves in Australia


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## volcano (Jan 14, 2013)

http://www.pupsup.com/ 
They seem reputable in the horse world and they came out with some dog supplements recently.


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## lone Ranger (Nov 29, 2012)

Wolf Caesar is now 18 weeks old, and just broke 50 lbs... I am hoping this idea that the RAW diet, the BARF diet, does result in slower growth rates, because I was hoping he would break the 100 lb mark... But I love him to death.. :wub: Before any of you jump on me for Breeding and desire for GSDs over 100 lbs, it is for a reason.. INTIMIDATION against wild dogs and dingos.. My Alpha GSD Cody has never been challenged in 10 years, he just puffs up and bluffs a big dog bark as he lunges down the hill at them and they are gone in a flash... Size matters in the Wolf Pack, believe it.. !!!

Anyway, a progress report on Caesar: *He is amazing, and I credit his incredible learning curve to the RAW diet.. Now I don't know how this compares, but it is the best that I have seen..* At 18 weeks, 23 kg, he heels off leash, stops, sits, lays down, stays even when I go out of sight for about 10 seconds, stays longer if he can see me, tries to herd cattle, barks at anything strange and is responding to the "watch" command first stage of called for aggression, he recalls, knows some Spanish Commands (rare in Australia) of OK it is good, Leave it, and more.. In short I am not sure I have ever seen better with just casual training, at 18 weeks!!! *Not a brag, just that I credit the RAW/BARF diet for his calm and willing disposition, which makes him learn fast and easy.* :wub:

*Feed him kibble in a meal, and he is all over the place with a short attention span and hyperactive...* :wild:

Here he is playing with a Red Sable desexed (before I knew better) bitch Tonka, she is about 35 kg, sort of normal heavy show size, Wolf Caesar is 23 kg now at 18 weeks...










*And here is my new Love, Wolf Caesars new Girlfriend, "Shaka"...* Now only three weeks old, but will be started on the RAW/Barf diet at about 8-9 weeks.. 










My Breeder of Caesar recommended me, so I got "Pick Bitch" of the litter and I chose this fine girl... Now only three weeks, will be Bred if hip scores are very good on her and Caesar...

Ain't She cute? :wub:










The RAW/BARF diet saved my 10 year old Alpha, and Caesar has astonished me with his development, so this pup will be on the RAW diet as well...

Kind regards from Australia


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## ndk1 (Dec 13, 2015)

*Misconceptions...*



jocoyn said:


> Most large breed puppy foods have proteins in the 25% range but several are higher such as Orijen. Don't overfeed the dog and he won't grow fast. They are now designed for slow steady growth and not fast crazy growth.
> 
> There are plenty of raw feeders and plenty of kibble feeders. So don't worry about making an argument for or against; feed what you feel is right for your dog.
> 
> ...


1. Dogs produce their own Vitamin C. It's a water soluble vitamin and the excess is eliminated.
2. The worst that can happen with overfeeding calcium (bones) is harder stools. There is no link between excess calcium and osteochondritis.
3. Even though genetic factors influence the appearance or not of OC or HD, 70% is environmental (too much exercise as a puppy, obesity). 

Just so that you don't feel guilty about something that had nothing to do with you feeding a species appropriate diet.


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

My vet know that I am feeding raw. To make sure growth is going well I bring him in to the vet every few months to monitor weight and structure. So far that has worked out well.


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## ndk1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Jag said:


> Yeah, I'm not going to buy into that argument. My wife's mixed breed has been on Pedigree forever. Good coat, never been sick, overweight, had a bad coat, etc. Grim's growth has been slow and steady on Innova, a lower protein food. Whatever your dog tolerates and does well on is the 'right food'. I've been told even by people selling dog food that it's more about genetics with growth rate than what they're fed.


No, no, no. Kibble is far from a species appropriate diet. It's not about the owner feeling good, it's about the dog eating what is was meant to eat.


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## ndk1 (Dec 13, 2015)

ndk1 said:


> 1. Dogs produce their own Vitamin C. It's a water soluble vitamin and the excess is eliminated.
> 2. The worst that can happen with overfeeding calcium (bones) is harder stools. There is no link between excess calcium and osteochondritis.
> 3. Even though genetic factors influence the appearance or not of OC or HD, 70% is environmental (too much exercise as a puppy, obesity).
> 
> Just so that you don't feel guilty about something that had nothing to do with you feeding a species appropriate diet.


No, Hip dysplasia has been linked to excessive amounts of calcium. 

Stop with the disinformation!


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## ndk1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Hello. Barf diet is out. Wolves shake the contents of stomachs and intestines of their prey. They do not need the enzymes, as those enzymes are specific to herbivore diets.


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## Castlemaid (Jun 29, 2006)

Did you know ndk1 that you are quoting an older post of yours and arguing with yourself? 

About the shaking out the stomach content - that is only with large animal stomachs. With smaller prey, dogs eat the whole animal, stomach content and all. Wolves' diet is mostly small prey, with the occasional larger prey animal. I've watched my own dog catch grouse or a rabbit, and eat the entire animal, not leaving anything. Except for the grouse's head and wing-tip feathers, everything else, gone!


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

Cam has a mild case of HOD. So far I had him on raw. He was put, and I agreed, on a low calciumhosphorus kibble from Wellness Core puppy by the Osteo vet. Also limited calories so he is skinny. After a month now, he seems to be doing better and his gaits are improving and he hasn't limped for quite some time. If I will ever raise another pup, I am not starting with raw until the skeleton is fully grown. With HOD the cause has not been conclusive but I just don't want to take another chance. I am getting paranoid about this actually.


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## voodoolamb (Jun 21, 2015)

ndk1 said:


> Hello. Barf diet is out. Wolves shake the contents of stomachs and intestines of their prey. They do not need the enzymes, as those enzymes are specific to herbivore diets.


No. They do not "need" vegetables. 

However there have been plenty of studies on dogs showing they benefit from the compounds found in veggies. 

Wolves have significantly shorter lifespans then dogs. They don't face age related diseases like cancer, macular degeneration, etc. Besides many studies of scat from wild caninids, including wolves, show they consume grasses and berries. 

So I'll give my guys some kale for the lutein, some papaya for the lycopene, etc.


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

wolfy dog said:


> Cam has a mild case of HOD. So far I had him on raw. He was put, and I agreed, on a low calciumhosphorus kibble from Wellness Core puppy by the Osteo vet. Also limited calories so he is skinny. After a month now, he seems to be doing better and his gaits are improving and he hasn't limped for quite some time. If I will ever raise another pup, I am not starting with raw until the skeleton is fully grown. With HOD the cause has not been conclusive but I just don't want to take another chance. I am getting paranoid about this actually.


I think I feel the same way. I waited to start mine on raw until Apollo was almost a year old. I'm sure I will have another pup or two in the future and I would have to really think long and hard on diet for the first year.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

Castlemaid said:


> Did you know ndk1 that you are quoting an older post of yours and arguing with yourself?


This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

I often wonder - when people point to a natural diet for a dog to wolves diets....

When they do - I know that if they are trying to replicate that - they are simply clueless.......

The wolves diet is as complete as our caveman ancestors diet or any other wild carnivores diet in current day. Not good - but gets them along to be able to achieve the age of reproduction and they die very young. Certainly not a diet to model after.....

Wolves diets are not optimum and never were. Sometimes, they will eat 40lbs of meat and then nothing for 3 weeks. Sometimes - they will have nothing but bone and some old hide to eat... and their bodies pay for it. 

Certainly nothing to model after as their bodies are put to survival extremes....

Why is it, that a wolf can eat kibble and be in fine shape - if it is a good quality kibble? The wolf is not the "model" for best diet available.... hardly.


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## Stonevintage (Aug 26, 2014)

wolfy dog said:


> My vet know that I am feeding raw. To make sure growth is going well I bring him in to the vet every few months to monitor weight and structure. So far that has worked out well.


I guess it's kinda cool to think about feeding a dog a "raw" diet. At first thought, that sounds all good to me, I think it would have been workable 20 or 30 years ago....

The meat we humans eat has substantially less value than it did 20-30 years ago (by %'s 25-30 less) nutrient value in meats....

It's because of how the meat animals are raised now. If we humans were carnivores like dogs, that means our food would be giving us 25-30% less nutrition than what our parents and previous generations got out of that food source. 

Because we humans are not carnivores only as canines are, we enjoy a diet that more than makes up for any deficit in the meat raised these days..... but most everything from cereal to veggies, for us - has some vitamins or minerals (added or put back in) to our processed foods.

The "raw" meat feed today - does not have the same food value as it used to. I would be very careful to supplement in every way and have routine tests done if I were to decide to feed raw today....


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## llombardo (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't feed my dogs a raw diet to mimick a wolves diet. I feed it because I don't trust dog food period. I don't trust where the ingredients come from and I certainly do not trust anything from China, which is where pretty much all vitamins for humans and dogs come from. There is no way to go around it. I choose to supply them with vitamins that come naturally from the food they eat. This doesn't happen with dog food. There is a reason that all the vitamins and supplements have to be added to dog food, the process of making the food takes all nutrient value out of the main ingredients(no matter where they come from). 

I have fed my dogs pedigree, Iams, Eagle Pack, Proplan, Fromm, Annamaet, 4 health, Farmina--so I've had experience with all kinds of food. Once I seen what my dogs allergies were it became evident that there wasn't a food out there that they could eat without issue. I have managed to formulate individual diets for each individual dog. It's definitly a process but I've learned a lot and I've had fun with it. I pop into the vet for shots and routine blood work to make sure they are healthy and that is it.

I no longer go to the grocery stores for any meats. The dogs get all their stuff from local farms with no hormones or antiobiotics. I recently found another farm that can be a supplier for the dogs and us humans at very reasonable prices. 

I save a ton of money feeding raw on the food itself and vet bills. I'm always researching and learning more daily.


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## Slamdunc (Dec 6, 2007)

Feeding raw has far more nutrition than processed dog food. The quality of ingredients is far better and raw food is not heated and "extruded" into kibble like dry food is. Most of the nutrition is lost in the extruding process. 

To compare dry food to raw food is like comparing can fruit to fresh fruit. There is simply no comparison. The quality of ingredients in raw is far superior to the 4 D's that dry kibble manufacturers use. 

I was in the pet industry for a number of years and have fed raw exclusively for over 10 years. I will never go back to dry food and the health and working ability of my dogs confirms this.


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## pawpower (Apr 9, 2016)

I've read some posts where people are feeding a mixture of raw food and kibble. Why is that? I thought you weren't supposed to mix the two. Incidentally, we've been feeding our puppy raw food and it's been great so far. Our rescue dog is slowly warming up to raw food, but still won't touch organs.


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## NYCgsd (Apr 23, 2016)

Came from the vet, my female pup gained 10 lbs in 3.5 weeks. From 18.5 to 29.1 lbs at 15 weeks of age. She is long, lean, and has big paws and bones. I feed her Royal Canin, goats milk and yogurt, and baked liver. And a bunch of sweet potatoes and apples for treats. 
Im not sure if this is a good thing or bad, or if the diet is good or bad. The vet was surprised, she thought the scale was broken. Reading this thread makes me concerned for her to gain so much weight in 3.5 weeks.


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