# Pushed To Trial?



## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm getting a German Shepherd puppy today. She'll be here in a couple hours and I'm ridiculously excited!! 

My problem is, it's not until now that I'm feeling REALLY REALLY pressured by this breeder after already having paid for this puppy, to compete with it. He's already lining up classes and stuff for her (First 4 are free) and talking about how we've got to compete these two siblings since he's keeping one of the other puppies. I can kind of understand why he wants me to do this, he wanted the puppy I'm getting but he wanted to keep a black female for his lines. I'm not saying he IS since it's not been talked about but I think there is a possibility he may want to later breed her because he has mentioned over and over and over how much he wanted to keep my puppy but could only keep one and went with the black to keep the black dogs in his lines or something like that. This guys dead set on me doing Schutzhund/IPO training. I mentioned Siegar shows? He shuts me down. I just made the mention that some friends had told me to even try UKC shows, he REALLY didn't like that idea and told me UKC is a bunch of crap. I'm not even trying to turn this dog into some kind of champion whatever. All I wanted to do was just enter a couple shows for *FUN*. I know I can't do AKC because my dog would fail horribly in that so I wouldn't even waste my time or money which is why I was thinking about the other two options. I mentioned wanting to do agility too since I LOVE agility, he shut that down too saying that it is a bad idea because it's so harsh on the hips. I mean, the dogs parents are proven and tested and all so I'm fairly confident in that and I DO realize that agility can do damage...But so can jumping on and off the couch/bed, in and out of the car, ect. Going to pick up a huge dog every time? I mean think about Mastiff owners....Heck, this dude even shut me down when I mentioned I clicker trained after he said he's all about positive training. He was like "Positive training is good but all these dogs need is a voice command, clicker training is useless". :thinking: I only use clickers for the first couple weeks, it's not like it's a lifetime thing. I like....really am kind of worried. It's not like the dog isn't going to be trained but geez.

If Eevee the Wonder Mutt with the attention span of a squirrel can learn to sit, down, shake and stay by the time she was 8 weeks old (Got her at 6 weeks) then I'd hope my W.German/Czech, working line, breeder brags how much focus and drive she's got German Shepherd can do at LEAST that. o_o I mean I honestly already feel like a bit of a failure if it comes to the point in my life I can't work this dog each week. I was jumped last night and spent the night in the ER. While yes, I can deal with my puppy and start working with her and bonding with her....I could have a court case in a couple months that I've got to go to. I'm already worried about missing classes or trials because I've got to travel out of state to take care of this and the breeder getting upset. Not to mention weekly classes right now is a LOT. He trains twice a week and it's an hour and a half one way from my house.

Idk....:help: Pretty much explains it. What would you do? I mean I WANTED to give it a try but I never figured it would become anything serious like he seems to want it to be. Dang, I think if I suggested herding he'd shut that down too. I don't even have the dog in my arms yet and feel like I've already failed it. :/ I just wanted a new companion after missing Chance. I never expected to feel like I've got to turn this dog into something that wins #1 titles or whatever.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

If the contract doesn't stipulate what you can/can't do with the dog (and I have no idea how such a contract would even work...) then I wouldn't even discuss it with the breeder. Your dog, your life.


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## FG167 (Sep 22, 2010)

Liesje said:


> If the contract doesn't stipulate what you can/can't do with the dog (and I have no idea how such a contract would even work...) then I wouldn't even discuss it with the breeder. Your dog, your life.


:thumbup:


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

Taking a working line dog into a Sieger style conformation ring would probably be a big waste of time and I don't think you'd enjoy it very much (it would be like entering a Le Mans style race with a car built for NASCAR, it can be done but not much fun).

If there is nothing in the contract about titling the dog, then you aren't obliged to do it. When I was breeding, I gave a cash back incentive to my puppy buyers. If they achieved certain titles then I would send them a check for a given amount (not all titles got the same rebate amount). Or I would offer them double that amount in the form of a discount for a future pup. But it was just a fun incentive, not a requirement. Any dog that I knew I wanted titled I either kept and did it myself, or sold on a co-ownership to someone I was pretty confident would follow through. 

Now, having said that, I wouldn't totally rule out giving it a try. We have 2 or 3 people who joined our club just to learn and have fun and are now actively working toward a title. Sometimes if you have a dog who is into it then the activity becomes a fun and useful outlet.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I want to try it, I just can't do the drive every single week, twice a week. (At least not right now. The puppy is only 6 weeks old anyways, it isn't like it's going to be getting a SchH3 any time soon.) I want it to be FUN for NOW, I don't want it to be serious unless I and the puppy enjoy it enough to get serious. I just feel like if I train under him, he's going to say something if I miss classes or say I'm doing this or that wrong in the way I raise my dog. If I train somewhere else, I don't want him mad. I've never bought a dog from a breeder before so this is all completely new to me. I told him when I first came to see the dogs I was looking for a SERVICE dog, not specifically a SCHUTZHUND dog. But he did mentioned Schutzhund and I was just like "Yeah, it's something I've always wanted to try I just never got the chance to do it with my last GSD". Everything seemed fine and then this final conversation before the dog was picked up was kind of overwhelming about working the dog in SchH.


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## summercricks (May 8, 2012)

Its going to be your dog, not his. And if you don't have time for schutzhund training then it will take the fun out of it for you! If its not fun for you and your dog then its not worth it and it is a lot of work. I only have a puppy but it is already a lot of work but TONS of fun!!!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

what's in your contract?? are you going to own the puppy outright or co owning?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is the breeder concerned that this pup may be missing out on his potential (excelling in the sport) if you aren't training/competing? If there will be hard feelings on this issue, hopefully the future won't bring up other problems. The attitude about UKC shows some ignorance. I think his attitude towards some of your training techniques shows he is a bit pompous and close minded, JMO. 
If the breeder thinks you are a good match for his pup, then there should be no question in what you want to do, and I'm sure the pup will excel in whatever venue you invest time into. Good luck, and congrats on your puppy!


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

_Is the breeder concerned that this pup may be missing out on his potential (excelling in the sport) if you aren't training/competing?

+

If the breeder thinks you are a good match for his pup, then there should be no question in what you want to do_

THAT. That that that. He even let me bring her home earlier than normal because of my experience with raising and training (specifically young) dogs, something he said he doesn't ever really do. I feel like there should be some trust there. :/ I plan to train the dog, we're looking at her as my new service dog and even then I DO want to do SOMETHING with the dog (ie. Schutzhund, agility, herding, shows, flyball, ect) just for something fun and extra to do. But he just seems against everything except SchH. :thinking:

And I own the dog, no co-ownership.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Wouldn't he be pleased if you ended up with a MACH agility dog from his kennel~what a great representation!!
I would think he would be pleased that his dogs could do anything/everything along with SchH....showing the versatility of his program.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Schutzhund is very time consuming. It looks like a lot of fun and the dogs obviously enjoy it too, but not everyone has the time to spend at least one weekend day and a couple evenings a week training. There are also club fees, which not everyone can afford, and the gas to drive a couple of hours to training every week. Nobody can force you to do all that if you can't or don't want to, for whatever reason. Doing SOMETHING with her should be good enough for him. 

I would avoid the issue as much as you can until you get the puppy, in case he decides that he doesn't want you to have her after all. You can say you're considering it without giving a yes or no answer. If he's determined that she should go to a Schutzhund home he should have made sure of that beforehand rather than trying to talk you into something you're not interested in. And then later you can simply not have the time and/or money to train with him. Find classes closer to you that are more up your alley. 

As long as you haven't misled him from the beginning and pretended to be interested in Schutzhund in order to get the puppy, you have nothing to apologize for, and you have no obligation to do the sport he wants you to do unless that was an express part of the contract or your agreement with him.


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## Dooney's Mom (May 10, 2011)

Wait... Did you say he let you bring the pup home early?? as in before 8 weeks old?? That right there would give me warning flags about this person. I have never heard of a reputable breeder allowing pups to leave early. There are some really great breeders on here and maybe they will chime in on that. 

As far as the other issue.. Check over your contract, see how he handles his dogs and if you still "like" it, then I would take him up on the 4 free classes. Those 4 classes will help you out and then you can have some "you" time with your dog.

My dog has pretty good working SCH lines (or so I have been told) the breeder NEVER pushed me into it at all- She told all new owners about the class and about her trainer. I didn't think it was going to be something for me, but WOW- it is fun. It isn't a part time hobby though. Good luck with dealing with this person, but stand your ground firm- don't be pressured into anything you don't want to do!!


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## JakodaCD OA (May 14, 2000)

if you own the dog outright, it's ultimately your decision.

I would 'do' what you enjoy and what the dog will enjoy,,He's only a small puppy! You (general you) can't know at this point just what he'll be good at or even like.

I got Masi to primarly do agility, well guess what, she could care less, she is just not 'into' it, I'm not going to force something that I may want to do on a dog who doesn't want to do it..She loves to track and she likes obedience, so that's what I focus on.

If the dog is owned by you, I would tell the guy, 'thank you, but I'm going to 'this class', it's more convenient for me,'...

I don't you don't want to upset the applecart with the breeder, but you can be polite and firm , you don't have to say I am NOT doing this or that..Your dog now Your call.


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## PaddyD (Jul 22, 2010)

Not sure that it's a privilege to take a pup home early.
Pups need to stay with their siblings until at least 8 weeks.
If you own the pup outright then cut the cord with the breeder and go your own way. Congratulations and best of luck.


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## holland (Jan 11, 2009)

If you don't want to do schutzhund I wouldn't promise the breeder that you will do it-Iwould go with a different breeder or maybe even a different breed but you already have the puppy so good luck


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## Lauri & The Gang (Jun 28, 2001)

> Wait... Did you say he let you bring the pup home early?? as in before 8 weeks old?? That right there would give me warning flags about this person. I have never heard of a reputable breeder allowing pups to leave early. There are some really great breeders on here and maybe they will chime in on that.





> Not sure that it's a privilege to take a pup home early.
> Pups need to stay with their siblings until at least 8 weeks.


Puppies need to stay with their dam and siblings to learn socialization skills.

If the new owner is highly experienced in working with young puppies then I would have no problem sending the puppy home early ...* IF* the puppy was ready.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

while I would love to have more of my pups in the sport, the most important thing for me is a committed, loving, knowledgeable home....Yes, I will encourage someone to participate in training, I know only a very few will make that commitment! If your breeder is that adamant that this particular pup be titled, he should not have sold the pup....put her on a contract to title or a co-ownership with someone with a proven track record or kept her himself....as far as not keeping this pup due to color??? Stupid reason, the black gene may be recessive since she has a black littermate, or he could just breed to a black male down the road!

I hate to see conflicts like this develop because I think that puppy owners and breeders both can benefit from have a good relationship!

Lee


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## Wolfgeist (Dec 4, 2010)

Liesje said:


> If the contract doesn't stipulate what you can/can't do with the dog (and I have no idea how such a contract would even work...) then I wouldn't even discuss it with the breeder. *Your dog, your life*.


That right there is all that needs to be said. Don't stress it. You're paying the money, tell him to focus on the dog he's keeping back.


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

You know... I don't know who your breeder is, but if he's being really pushy about SchH and pooh-poohs everything YOU want to do with the pup (UKC, Agility, clicker training, etc), maybe he's confused about whether he is placing the pup with the right person. While I think you should be clear that SchH is something you want to *try*, it is not a passionate goal, and you cannot guarantee that you will be able to train and title this dog. If he really wants this pup to compete in SchH he should be selling it to a competition home. 

Just to be clear and honest and avoid any hard feelings, I would remind him that your main goal is a SERVICE dog, and it may not be in your werewithall to title. No promises! If he has a problem with that, he can keep the pup and you can find another pup elsewhere. I am not sure I'd want to be dealing with a breeder who is this pushy and demanding. And I am not sure what the deal is with letting you take the pup early; the only benefit I can see to that is that *he* is ridding himself of another mouth to feed and getting his money sooner.

What does he have spelled out in the contract? If it does not mention breeding or titles (or if you are not co-owning the dog), the dog is YOURS, not his. Once the money exchanges hands and the contract is signed, you can do with the dog as you please and he has absolutely no right to tell you want to do. If you're already afraid of the breeder getting *mad* at you for doing what you want with your own dog, it raises a red flag to me.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> _Is the breeder concerned that this pup may be missing out on his potential (excelling in the sport) if you aren't training/competing?_
> 
> _+_
> 
> ...


 
You own him - your dog!

And the guy thinks that Agility is tougher on a dog than ScH????? A little out of touch there I would say.


*Enjoy* your dog and don't let yourself be bullied!!!!


If YOU don't enjoy the training neither will your puppy!!!!!


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

Did you talk with the breeder?


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Freestep said:


> You know... I don't know who your breeder is, but if he's being really pushy about SchH and pooh-poohs everything YOU want to do with the pup (UKC, Agility, clicker training, etc), maybe he's confused about whether he is placing the pup with the right person. While I think you should be clear that SchH is something you want to *try*, it is not a passionate goal, and you cannot guarantee that you will be able to train and title this dog. If he really wants this pup to compete in SchH he should be selling it to a competition home.
> 
> Just to be clear and honest and avoid any hard feelings, I would remind him that your main goal is a SERVICE dog, and it may not be in your werewithall to title. No promises! If he has a problem with that, he can keep the pup and you can find another pup elsewhere. I am not sure I'd want to be dealing with a breeder who is this pushy and demanding. And I am not sure what the deal is with letting you take the pup early; the only benefit I can see to that is that *he* is ridding himself of another mouth to feed and getting his money sooner.
> 
> What does he have spelled out in the contract? If it does not mention breeding or titles (or if you are not co-owning the dog), the dog is YOURS, not his. Once the money exchanges hands and the contract is signed, you can do with the dog as you please and he has absolutely no right to tell you want to do. If you're already afraid of the breeder getting *mad* at you for doing what you want with your own dog, it raises a red flag to me.


Everything you said pretty much. I have no issues with taking the dog early though.

TBH, I haven't even SIGNED a contract yet and have the dog. I've got to call him tomorrow and ask about if I need to stop by on my way back to NC and sign the papers since someone else picked up the dog or if he allowed THEM to sign them. Or if he is just going to have me do it at the time I come for classes. (I'm hoping to do it tomorrow BEFORE she goes to the vet so that I have a signed warranty just in case) I do know as far as what we spoke of, this is MY dog. The things we went over included that the dog has a 2 year health guarantee, should be seen by a vet within 48 hours, lifetime guarantee to take back if the dog doesn't work out, his deworming/vaccine schedule, what he feeds his dogs the first year of life (Which I didn't even bother telling him I'm not feeding the same food, just agreed and left it at that. I did mention that I do introduce canned food into my dogs diets (Left out the tablescraps and raw part) later but he seemed fine by that. Just didn't mention any names so I guess he assumed I'd be feeding the same brand of canned.), I was shown paperwork and DNA testing on his adult dogs but he says the puppies paperwork is still in the mail and he'll get them to me as soon as they get mailed in. At no point in time did I ever mention that I WOULD do Schutzhund, just that it was something I had been interested with my previous dog (Chance) but never got around to doing and that I *MIGHT* would be interested with Gretchen but I made it quite clear that I was looking for a SERVICE dog for my medical needs more than I was looking for any kind of competition dog.

I'm already so in love with this little dog. I just hope nothing comes up wrong. I'd rather have no guarantee on the dog and the contract be completely void over anything than to have to give her back. She's so smart, loving and just so cute. She's the lines I wanted, the color I want and I swear I think Chance was following me in spirit to pick a dog because every dog I looked at was female even prior to this puppy and I swore I didn't want a female dog. (We used to joke that Chance wanted to be a girl lol)

Oi. Just so much to do. I hope this experience doesn't ruin anything for me. I'm such a newbie to this whole breeder/contract thing. Only papers I've ever signed was saying that the animal control couldn't be held responsible if the dog is found to be sick after being taken home. :/ And that was Chance, otherwise I've never signed papers or paid for a dog.

I don't think he's really "mad", I just feel pressure about it. He brags about his wife being the first woman to stand on the podium at a SchH trial in Germany in 1986 or something like that. I think he pushes it more because of her than he does himself. I've never met her though but she was in the background when I was on the phone with him the other day trying to give him instructions to tell me. I think in reality, she wears the pants.


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## Barb E (Jun 6, 2004)

wolfstraum said:


> while I would love to have more of my pups in the sport, the most important thing for me is a committed, loving, knowledgeable home....Yes, I will encourage someone to participate in training, I know only a very few will make that commitment! If your breeder is that adamant that this particular pup be titled, he should not have sold the pup....put her on a contract to title or a co-ownership with someone with a proven track record or kept her himself...
> *Removed part of post*
> 
> I hate to see conflicts like this develop because I think that puppy owners and breeders both can benefit from have a good relationship!
> ...


This.
I know Lee would love it if I would compete with Kaos - she's a great pup and would do very well.
I was honest with Lee from day 1 that my dogs first job is always to be my companion and that you never know, I might decide to compete in something down the road.
No pressure from Lee what so ever, though we talk about it from time to time  
I have no relationship with Dante's breeder, can't find her (I do hope she's ok and just moved/married/etc) and I so appreciate my relationship with Lee - It's the perfect icing to a lovely pup!!


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

Congrats on the pup, need pics! All the talk about pups furure is a bit early though. It's like having a toddler and arguing that he needs to become a navy seal when he grows up! Enjoy the pup, let him grow up and then make the decision based on what HE likes to do and if you are ok with it.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Wellll....Kinda realized today that I unknowingly was screwing myself over. I still love my little girl dearly and don't want to give her up over it but that "guarantee", yeah well.....We'll see if it ever happens. I called him asking if I could stop by to sign the health guarantee/contract papers on the way home and he blew up on me talking about nobody does that, that he's a man of his word, that he's been breeding for 30+ years and never had a problem, ect. Even said "In the state of NC, a hand shake signs a contract"....Right. I may be young but I'm NOT stupid. If this dog gets HD or something and needs surgery, it's all on me without any papers. He says that AKC papers are what guarantees it....WTF? Puppymills register their dogs with the AKC all the time, the organization is honestly a joke when it really comes down to it. And for some reason using the fact he's a Yankee to try making being a "man of his word" any better! Can he not tell by the accent that he sold to a Southern girl? I don't trust people though. I trusted my moms husband after them being together for 4 years when he SWORE he'd never hurt a woman. He hit my mom and then beat me into the ER right before I was suppose to get my puppy. So much for a "trustful word". If he's a man of his word, great. If a health defect comes up or when I get x-rays done, if something comes up I can't expect him to have to pay because I have no contract stating that he will. (Or even that I would be reimbursed for my puppy payment) Word of mouth wont hold up in court, I'm not stupid. I'm even having my mom call her attorney this week (Moms got prepaid legal) to go over what I can do if anything. I feel like if he really hasn't had problems in 30+ years and stands behind his lines that much, then he shouldn't have any fear of signing a contract if he has no worries that anything will even pop up.

I can only pray I guess that my girl is healthy.  I do feel a little heart broken and upset. The guy was a complete ass to me on the phone but was decent enough to call me back hours later and apologize but I still want a WRITTEN guarantee that my puppy is covered. Is there really anything I can do that any of you know of before I speak with the attorney?

Ugggh! Never ever again. I spent so much money on a dog when I could have just gotten a shelter/Craigslist/Kijiji/whatever dog. Never will I buy from a breeder again, I don't care how reputable they seem. The case of the puppy being put to sleep after the owner sent it back to the breeder because of aggression issues, thinking she was doing the right thing and being told the dog would be worked with is yet another example of you really just can't trust someone to do what they say. SMH! :headbang:


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Ugggh! Never ever again. I spent so much money on a dog when I could have just gotten a shelter/Craigslist/Kijiji/whatever dog. Never will I buy from a breeder again, I don't care how reputable they seem. The case of the puppy being put to sleep after the owner sent it back to the breeder because of aggression issues, thinking she was doing the right thing and being told the dog would be worked with is yet another example of you really just can't trust someone to do what they say. SMH! :headbang:



Ok, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but blaming breeders is absolutely throwing the baby out with the bathwater. That's like saying you'll never buy an iPad again because the one you bought in the parking lot at the mall was actually an empty box. Is this the way a guarantee should be handled? No, not in my book, but that should have been ironed out pre-purchase. If you spend any time reading and digesting the posts on here you will see over and over how you need to get all the ducks in a row BEFORE you take possession of the dog/pup and BEFORE you pay in full. Every dog/pup I have bought in the last 20 years was paid for after all the paper work was in my hands. The breeder I've worked with most recently has had all the contracts back to me and paperwork finished(although she kept the registration papers until pickup) a week or more before I went to pick up the puppy. I had one dog that came in from Europe without the papers, I paid half the money at the time and told them I'd pay the rest when I had the paperwork. I got the paperwork about 2 months later and they got their money. 
I may be a bit different than most though, I don't really care about guarantees. The only guarantee I want is that the pup I'm getting is from the parents stated and that the information on the parents is factual. The rest is a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

It's just the fact of what I was promised. I've done research on breeders and when I first went into it, I thought I'd found what would be perfect. No, I didn't know that I should wait to pay for the dog until I get the paperwork, oops. I ****ed up. (Wouldn't be the first time in my life) At least I got the dog from a breeder who DOES have paperwork on their dogs and DID show me the parents papers, DNA testing papers and titles/test their dogs. I figured the puppies would come with it once the time came. He says I get the AKC and SV papers, that's not the issue. The HEALTH guarantee is what I want in writing. Excuse me for being a human and for being a first time dog buyer, again, I'll never do it again so I don't mess up anything. I've always been happy with my freebies, just come get the dog, leave and you never have to speak to anyone again or sign any papers or have any hopes. I just thought a breeder might be an option this go. She's not going back so I guess I'll have to make it work but it's still being told one thing and then it being a complete lie.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

You found this breeder by driving down the street and seeing a sign on the side of the road, right? I hope she is healthy and will be so throughout her life. Her pedigree is who she is, not the breeders pedigree. He doesn't sound like one I'd like to add to the gene pool.
This is what it boils down to:


> I may be a bit different than most though, I don't really care about guarantees. The only guarantee I want is that* the pup I'm getting is from the parents stated and that the information on the parents is factua*l. The rest is a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I'm with Anette. I'm not defending the breeder, doesn't sound like someone I'd touch with a ten foot pole BUT what sort of guarantee are you looking for? I don't know any breeders that can guarantee the perfect health of a dog and/or offer to cover the surgery if the dog is not healthy. A breeder might guarantee a "healthy dog" but that doesn't mean the exact dog it just means they will keep giving you a new dog until you get a healthy one.

If I want certain papers, copies of pedigrees, registration, etc I don't hand over money until I have those in my hand. I won't take the puppy home without everything that I was promised. No excuses.



> Ugggh! Never ever again. I spent so much money on a dog when I could have just gotten a shelter/Craigslist/Kijiji/whatever dog. Never will I buy from a breeder again, I don't care how reputable they seem. The case of the puppy being put to sleep after the owner sent it back to the breeder because of aggression issues, thinking she was doing the right thing and being told the dog would be worked with is yet another example of you really just can't trust someone to do what they say.


Sorry you are having a bad experience but I don't think this is representative of halfway decent breeders. I'm not sure who this breeder is or how you found him but each post is sending off more red flags.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Well I could get a free "crap shoot" on Craigslist. Regardless of the persons location or how I found him, I was shown papers of registration, DNA testing, titles....It's not like I was buying a puppy from a puppymill who didn't do anything with their dogs besides make money. I made a mistake buying my first dog, I didn't get a signed contract up front before full payment was given and then expected one after being "promised" of such a guarantee. Such a horrible person I am. And people on here talk about how a good breeder will give a guarantee for their dog....Gosh, that's all I expected and now I'm being told it's worthless. What a bunch of hypocrites.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

All I want is the paper that states what he told me, that I have a 2 year guarantee against any genetic health problems and that he would take care of it if it were to pop up. Again, if he has SUCH confidence in his lines, why would it be such a huge problem to sign a contract, especially if in 30 years he's never had a problem? I realize dogs can have problems, even from the most well bred parents. Had he not told me that I would get a covered guarantee, I wouldn't expect one.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Just as an example, I'll use the Wildhaus Kennel as an example of the type of guarantee I was looking for.

(German Shepherd Puppy Health Warranty, by Wildhaus Kennels )

At least the 2 year warranty to cover genetic problems that I was promised by MY breeder.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Well I could get a free "crap shoot" on Craigslist. Regardless of the persons location or how I found him, I was shown papers of registration, DNA testing, titles....It's not like I was buying a puppy from a puppymill who didn't do anything with their dogs besides make money. I made a mistake buying my first dog, I didn't get a signed contract up front before full payment was given and then expected one after being "promised" of such a guarantee. Such a horrible person I am. And people on here talk about how a good breeder will give a guarantee for their dog....Gosh, that's all I expected and now I'm being told it's worthless. *What a bunch of hypocrites*.


 
That attitude will certainly get you a load of help and good advice!


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I hope you can get past the breeder's influence on your pup and get on with enjoying your pup. No matter what, a guarantee is not really the big picture. I have one with only one of my dogs, yet I don't know if it would do much good if I needed to go to the breeder due to any issue(the breeder would do the right thing, but the dog is ultimately the one who suffers from whatever issue, right?) Better to just go with a breeder who has a good record of breeding sound good temperament and healthy dogs. Hopefully the breeder you got your girl from has that record. The US is all about a contract, it is the norm.....I don't think you'd see that in the European countries, or even expect it.
I can't wait to see pics of your pup! Please don't let this thread be a downer for the excitement you must have.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

codmaster said:


> That attitude will certainly get you a load of help and good advice!


Well obviously everyone knows how to buy a puppy except me. I simply ask for advice based on what I've read when looking into a breeder and then am told it is worthless, this makes those people HYPOCRITES. If I read 100 times that a good breeder offers a genetic warranty and then am told that a genetic warranty is useless by some of the same people, than what exactly is the point in having one for ANY breeder?

@Jane: Thank you for the actual nice post. All I wanted was help, I'm just upset because I -am- new at this. I expected help from this place and just got shot down. It's been a rough week and I'm just upset that people want to contradict themselves. Had I NOT gone to a breeder who offers one, a lot of people would have shot me down. So I go to one who told me he does and then STILL get shot down when I expect something in writing. Again, words mean nothing to me without proof because they mean nothing in court without proof. And call me a stubborn bitch but when I'm dishing out $$$, if you're going to tell me I get a warranty than dammit I want a warranty. If that's wanting my cake and eating it too then so be it. I want it to be a marbled cake with chocolate frosting and strawberries and whip cream on top and it better be delicious! Throw in some vanilla bean ice cream too!!

I'll love this dog no matter what and look forward to many years with her. The little things she does to make me smile and to know that I finally have the dog I wanted, to have a dog who can pick up on my service needs where Chance left off far too early in his life. I'm not disappointed in HER, I'm disappointed in the BREEDER. And I guess myself for even trying to get involved with anything other than a Craigslist or similar dog.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Should also mention outside of the contract but back to the pushy part, I thought he'd be proud when I told him how smart Gretchen was and how she has picked up on things so quickly such as sitting, walking at my side on the leash like a little lady, letting me know when she needs to potty, coming when called, learning her name.....He basically told me I need to stop and "remember she's only 6 weeks old". I'm not even working on formal obedience, she's just too smart for her own good. Maybe he's just upset that my dog is going to be smarter than his will.  I'll enjoy my little firecracker and take as much advantage of her spongy brain as I wish. (Hey, it aint in writing that I have to wait to do anything with her!) Whole point in coming home early. Love this girl! Can't wait to see what she can do by 8 weeks.


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## bocron (Mar 15, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Well I could get a free "crap shoot" on Craigslist. Regardless of the persons location or how I found him, I was shown papers of registration, DNA testing, titles....It's not like I was buying a puppy from a puppymill who didn't do anything with their dogs besides make money. I made a mistake buying my first dog, I didn't get a signed contract up front before full payment was given and then expected one after being "promised" of such a guarantee. Such a horrible person I am. And people on here talk about how a good breeder will give a guarantee for their dog....Gosh, that's all I expected and now I'm being told it's worthless. What a bunch of hypocrites.


The crap shoot is what life brings you along the way with the pup you bought, not in the genetics and work behind it. Buying from a *reputable* breeder makes it less of a gamble, sure, but it's always a gamble. To continue with the gambling references, I just choose to stack the deck in my favor, but do I believe that a piece of paper will become a magic shield against the variables out of my(and the breeders) control,no. To me, a guarantee is like a asking for a security deposit from someone renting my basement. I don't rent my basement to someone without references, I make sure I do a background check and I use common sense and ask the appropriate questions, but do I skip the security deposit? No, I absolutely require it with the hope that I've done my homework and won't have to use it to recover my home once the renter has moved on. 

Like I said before, I don't really care about guarantees. I look at the breeders track record, what progeny I've seen or know of and how they have turned out. You'll never hear me say to ONLY buy from a breeder who offers a guarantee since about half the dogs we buy come from Europe and there is never a guarantee on dogs from Europe. The fact that the breeders I've bought from in the USA gave me one was a bonus, but that is just the way it is done here. I don't know about the agreement you had with your breeder, if you were promised a guarantee, then yes, you should get one. Is it written on their website anywhere that this is standard practice for them? 
Like Jane said, it's the pup who would suffer ultimately if there were an issue and she's right. The hope is that your breeder did the work and produced the best he could. 
Hopefully the lack of a *written* guarantee will never come into play. She looks like a nice pup and seems to think she has found her castle and kingdom and will be with you for many years to come. 
Find a trainer near you that you like and enjoy your new girl. I guess the flip side is that if he didn't give you the guarantee you were promised, then there isn't anything in writing saying you have to train with him either.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> *Well obviously everyone knows how to buy a puppy except me. *I simply ask for advice based on what I've read when looking into a breeder and then am told it is worthless, this makes those people HYPOCRITES. If I read 100 times that a good breeder offers a genetic warranty and then am told that a genetic warranty is useless by some of the same people, than what exactly is the point in having one for ANY breeder?
> 
> @Jane: Thank you for the actual nice post. All I wanted was help, I'm just upset because I -am- new at this. I expected help from this place and *just got shot down. (Maybe ATTITUDE?) *It's been a rough week and I'm just upset that people want to contradict themselves. Had I NOT gone to a breeder who offers one, a lot of people would have shot me down. So I go to one who told me he does and then STILL get shot down when I expect something in writing. *(Before you hand over the $$$$$ ?) * Again, words mean nothing to me without proof because they mean nothing in court without proof. And call me a stubborn bitch but when I'm dishing out $$$, if you're going to tell me I get a warranty than dammit I want a warranty. *(Then you might have held out for one, I think is what people here are trying to suggest)* If that's wanting my cake and eating it too then so be it. I want it to be a marbled cake with chocolate frosting and strawberries and whip cream on top and it better be delicious! Throw in some vanilla bean ice cream too!! (How did it taste?)
> 
> I'll love this dog no matter what and look forward to many years with her. The little things she does to make me smile and to know that I finally have the dog I wanted, to have a dog who can pick up on my service needs where Chance left off far too early in his life. I'm not disappointed in HER, I'm disappointed in the BREEDER. *And I guess myself for even trying to get involved with anything other than a Craigslist or similar dog*.


 
Enjoy your new dog!

*At least you have learned for your next dog, right?*


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

Much nicer and agreeable post Annette.  Again, I was upset when I posted. I've had a very rough week. I'm dealing with a new puppy, with family problems, dealing with having the crap beat out of me over the weekend and being chased down the road with a knife and told I was going to be killed and with all this comes a HUGE lack of sleep which makes most people cranky alone besides everything else.

And yes Codmaster, it tasted great and I'll remember that I'm not cut out for breeder dogs. I'm just an old fashioned country girl who's never had anything go wrong with a dog until I try to do the right thing by going to what in my first experience with buying a dog and what I had learned on here, was a good breeder. I messed up by not knowing I wasn't suppose to pay for the dog until I got the papers. I've never had a dog with papers or a guarantee, I honestly have never read anywhere on here that you should never pay for a dog before getting papers until now. So yes, I've learned something...Stick with what aint broken, dogs that come with no strings attached!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Much nicer and agreeable post Annette.  Again, I was upset when I posted. I've had a very rough week. I'm dealing with a new puppy, with family problems, dealing with having the crap beat out of me over the weekend and being chased down the road with a knife and told I was going to be killed and with all this comes a HUGE lack of sleep which makes most people cranky alone besides everything else.
> 
> And yes Codmaster, it tasted great and I'll remember that I'm not cut out for breeder dogs. I'm just an old fashioned country girl who's never had anything go wrong with a dog until I try to do the right thing by going to what in my first experience with buying a dog and what I had learned on here, was a good breeder. I messed up by not knowing I wasn't suppose to pay for the dog until I got the papers. I've never had a dog with papers or a guarantee, I honestly have never read anywhere on here that you should never pay for a dog before getting papers until now. So yes, I've learned something...Stick with what aint broken, dogs that come with no strings attached!


Sorry to hear about all of your non dog troubles!

And many of us have had breeder problems before (and breeders have buyer problems as well, of course!).


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## Shaina (Apr 2, 2011)

Who knows, maybe his word of mouth is good. I dont have a physical contract with my breeder, but he gave me his word on standing behind my dog, and I trusted him. I'm sure he will stand by it.. that's what good breeders do.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I simply ask for advice based on what I've read when looking into a breeder and then am told it is worthless, this makes those people HYPOCRITES. If I read 100 times that a good breeder offers a genetic warranty and then am told that a genetic warranty is useless by some of the same people, than what exactly is the point in having one for ANY breeder?


This depends on who you ask. I never tell people they *have to have* some sort of contract or guarantee. This is not the only thing that separates good breeding from bad and doesn't matter at all for a lot of people. I'd take a good GSD with hip dysplasia over an OFA Excellent GSD with a crappy temperament any day. Focusing on just health is too narrow a focus for me. To me there really isn't a point in having a guarantee on a living animal, so I don't require one but sometimes the breeder I choose offers one, sometimes not. I look at the lines of the dog and their history of health and that's how I decide whether the puppy has a good chance of being healthy or not. If I see lines that aren't known for health then I go the other way even if the breeder offers the most extensive warranty in the world. I agreed to buy a puppy from a breeder who offers no guarantee, no paperwork other than registration for the puppy but heard from others that he does stand by his dogs and will offer a replacement if one has a genetic problem (though in one of your earlier posts you mentioned surgery, just wanted to make it clear that I don't know of any breeder good or bad that helps pay for vet care and surgical correction, guarantees even when on paper don't work that way, you return your dog and get a healthy one).

The reason why you're probably not getting "helpful" advice now is that you seem to insist on getting this puppy from this breeder. We can help you find breeders we've had good experiences with and offer the sort of paperwork you're looking for but we can't help you convince a breeder to do it this way after the fact, if that's not how he does it.


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## JeanKBBMMMAAN (May 11, 2005)

OT - Do you still have that adorable little dog? 

Just sounds like...wow. Lots going on and funny that anyone would think that they could push someone else into doing stuff like that. Which...I would be looking at the people closely that I let into my life, and how to extract myself from those relationships without feeling unnecessarily guilty about it.


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## wolfstraum (May 2, 2003)

Standard warranty is that the pup is healthy upon taking possession of the puppy at 8 weeks...they have 2 business days to vet the pup. As far as genetics, here in the US, most breeders warranty a passing grade on OFA at 2 years....replacements offered on dogs who have to be put down for severe dysplasia, reduction in price for another pup on a functional fail - rarely have I seen anyone offer free replacements for anything other than HD. Have looked at many contracts, and this is basic. 

Knowledgeable breeders do not intentionally breed high risk litters....they do their best, and buyers need to educate themselves on risk, and accept that no one has 110% control over genetics. Every puppy you get is a risk.....you have to accept that no matter what warranty you have - no one can really guarantee a puppy is perfect!

If someone demanded that I be responsible for vet bills I would nicely say, "thanks for your interest in my dogs, good luck in finding your perfect puppy"

Lee


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## Freestep (May 1, 2011)

Just because you chose a crappy breeder doesn't mean all breeders are crappy. Sorry you made the wrong choice, but don't blame breeders at large for YOUR mistake--that's not fair. Perhaps next time you will slow down, do your research, and choose your breeder carefully, not just pick the first one you see while driving down the road.

In any case--enjoy your pup and put your feelings about the breeder aside. Hopefully there won't be any health issues. Do you have a copy of the unsigned contract in hand? If so, add a note of the date you spoke with the breeder about getting the contract signed. Write down everything he said over the phone and why he refuses to sign the contact. This could very well hold up in court if the pup has a debilitating health defect such as hip dysplasia, and the breeder refuses to honor the guarantee. 

You paid a lot more for this puppy, but it sounds like the guarantee you got is about the same as one you get from Craigslist.  This is why you need to do your research and choose a breeder that has a good reputation.


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## Clyde (Feb 13, 2011)

Just because a breeder looks good on paper or on a website and has all the criteria that you think would make a good breeder still does not mean they are a good breeder. It can all be lies or misinformation and many people wouldn't look into it enough to find out what was represented was not true.

You made a mistake and you are angry but really there is great information on this board for picking a good breeder and it is up to the individual person to then take that knowledge and make their decision. 

From things you have said there are a lot of red flags with this guy. All things that have been previously discussed on the board so not sure why they didn't stand out to you if you are going based on information you found on here. But please don't go around blaming others for your mistake. Learn from it and move on.

You got your puppy at 6 weeks! That is just another red flag! I don't mind the 7-8 week range for a puppy but 6 weeks is very early.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I haven't seen enough information to outright call this guy a bad breeder, but I have seen enough to call him a crafty businessman. Personally, I would never ever give money to anyone without signing a contract first, and even then I would only consider giving a small deposit $100-$200 for a dog worth $1000-$1500. So about 10% of the total purchase price would sound fair. I'd give the rest, when the person hands over the puppy. This has nothing to do with contracts being binding and holding up in court, it has everything to do with I'm not giving someone a good chunk of change in advance, for no reason at all, without receiving my "goods." I don't have the resources (time and money) to go after someone in court, even if I have a contract. It's just not worth the risk.

I think at this point, just relax and enjoy your dog, I'm not sure how you found this guy if you wanted a service dog for yourself, but generally that is a very very hard thing to find when looking for a GSD puppy. If everything else checked out, you probably ended up with a very good and healthy pup, I find it hard to believe he's never had an issue in 30+ years of breeding, but if that's what he says, maybe its true.

I also wanted to add...if you have a female, unless you were truly looking to breed in the future, I would never accept a breeder telling me that they want to breed my dog in the future (unless there is co-ownership involved). Way too much risk to put a female through if that is not what I'm into doing. If he wanted her to do Schutzhund so bad, he should've found a Schutzhund home for her, not a future service dog home. I'd love to do Schutzhund, but right now I just don't have the time to do all the things everyone listed. So I'll wait until my life is ready to take on that challenge and I'd never allow a breeder to tell me what I have to do with my dog. All the things you mentioned would be more than enough and way more than most dogs in the United States do anyways so I don't get what his issue is with that.

To me it sounds like he wants you to put in the time and money into training and titling this dog, and he'll somehow try to screw you when it comes time to breed. And I know that breeders don't make money off of what they do, but it is nice to recoup some of the costs of training and titling through having a litter with a qualified dog.


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## Catu (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't yet see anything wrong with this breeder. You are putting yourself on the worst scenario, as if the pup is already displastic or with health issues and so far it seems to be a nice healthy little girl :shrug: He offered you a guaranty and *you* assumed it was in *writin*g, then *you* felt disappointed when you discovered it was not the case, that you had to rely on the word of the breeder. If you don't thrust this breeder enough then *you *shouldn't have bought a pup from him on the first place.

The breeder of my second dog is the only one I know in Chile who offers a guaranty, and only because he lived many years in USA, and he basically copied the guaranty of another USA breeder. I bought from him because he is a person who knows a lot about bloodlines, who has done an enormous job impulsing the working lines and Schutzhund in the country and because I love his dogs, not because he offered a guaranty. I read the contract, made a couple questions, and accepted it, but never signed it on paper, basically because we both forgot when we met in person at a seminar a couple weeks before he sent the pup to me. I trust him and... Hey! He trust me enough to allow me to pay the pup in small payments for a whole year without anything signed either!!!! To this day none has signed anything beyond the transference of the pup, that was handed to me when he was already full paid.

I don't know how much the breeder had pushed SchH to you either, mentioning it from time to time doesn't seem like "pushing" to me. I'm not married, but I've been around a lot of couples when one is talking at the phone and the other wants the spouse to say something and reminds it over and over again. For what you describe, it's not like the breeder pushes SchH as much as the wife was nagging her husband to ask you if you were about to do Schutzhund with the pup or not.

And people here is not being HYPOCRITICAL (did you know that writing in caps is yelling over the internet?). It's that this happen to be a big board, with many kinds of GSD owners, and when you post something in one section, you will get different answers. This is the Schutzhund and IPO Section, the answers you have received here are what I'd have expected, now if you show me a post of Bocron or Liesje saying that a written guaranty defines a good breeder from someone who is not, then call people here hypocrites. If not...

I'm not a breeder, but if I were, I'd consider you a drama buyer and I'd need very good reasons to place a pup with you, not because I'd doubt the pup would be fine, but because I wouldn't like anyone calling me a liar over the internet without all the facts clear.


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## ChancetheGSD (Dec 19, 2007)

I have the dog and have already had the dog. I didn't pick the dog up due to having been in the hospital and having to do police reports so I had someone else pick her up. We explained to him WHY I wasn't picking up the puppy and that is why I figured I'd just be signing them later. Once again, I MADE A MISTAKE. I didn't think that far into it until I realized it wasn't in paper when I called asking about stopping by to sign them. I guess I get the award for being the first person in the world to make a first bought puppy mistake. Figured I'd at least get some credit for going with someone who health test, DNA test and works their dogs but I guess not.

For the record, Gretchen went to the vet today and the outcome was 2 ear infections, tapeworm infection (but otherwise clear of parasites) and a grade 2 heart murmur. Heart murmur was my only concern (Since there is no telling when the ear infections started and the tapeworms could have come from anywhere; best news was that was her ONLY worms) and figured I'd let the breeder know it was found in case she doesn't grow out of it. We talked calmly and he explained that he stands by his dogs. While he will not do any coverage charge of any percentage of the original price, he will take the puppy back and replace her or if it became bad enough (any genetic problem) and I was too attached, he would give me another puppy from a different breeding later on.

On the other hand, he also told me that the pups papers came in and he's getting them shipped out to me which is also a weight lifted off my shoulders.

I just don't want to be left in the dark and didn't want to have to give up my puppy, especially after all the money I spent on her today.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Don't feel bad about going to a breeder and getting a dog. There isn't as single breeder in this world that everyone would agree with. Maybe you felt that some people were calling you out for going to this guy, but I think they were just expressing their more experienced opinions on what they would've done in this situation. I don't know why you want people to accept the choice you make, its your choice, if you accept it and you're happy with it, that's all that should matter. Most people on this forum have made mistakes with breeders, they learned from it and next time go to a different one. But they still loved those dogs as much as the next ones.

The only thing that I have to say is that the breeder's vet should've caught the heart murmur and you should've known about something like that before you picked up the puppy. It's a little sketchy but since he's agreed to replace the puppy if it's really bad then I guess you shouldn't have an issue. As long as you're fine with that then I don't think there is anyone here that can tell you anything that should hurt your feelings.


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## LARHAGE (Jul 24, 2006)

ChancetheGSD said:


> Well I could get a free "crap shoot" on Craigslist. Regardless of the persons location or how I found him, I was shown papers of registration, DNA testing, titles....It's not like I was buying a puppy from a puppymill who didn't do anything with their dogs besides make money. I made a mistake buying my first dog, I didn't get a signed contract up front before full payment was given and then expected one after being "promised" of such a guarantee. Such a horrible person I am. And people on here talk about how a good breeder will give a guarantee for their dog....Gosh, that's all I expected and now I'm being told it's worthless. What a bunch of hypocrites.


 
We all don't have the same definition of good breeders, yours isn't sounding like one to me.


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## OriginalWacky (Dec 21, 2011)

ChancetheGSD said:


> I have the dog and have already had the dog. I didn't pick the dog up due to having been in the hospital and having to do police reports so I had someone else pick her up. We explained to him WHY I wasn't picking up the puppy and that is why I figured I'd just be signing them later. Once again, I MADE A MISTAKE. I didn't think that far into it until I realized it wasn't in paper when I called asking about stopping by to sign them. I guess I get the award for being the first person in the world to make a first bought puppy mistake. Figured I'd at least get some credit for going with someone who health test, DNA test and works their dogs but I guess not.


For what it's worth, I don't think that is such a large mistake, and people are NOT trying to say that you're a bad or stupid person for making it. You certainly aren't the first to make errors in the process of getting a dog, and you certainly won't be the last. I think most folks here just assume that you know you did right by choosing somebody who health tests etc, and don't feel the need to tell you. So for the record, you've already done better than a whole lot of people out there buying dogs. 



> For the record, Gretchen went to the vet today and the outcome was 2 ear infections, tapeworm infection (but otherwise clear of parasites) and a grade 2 heart murmur. Heart murmur was my only concern (Since there is no telling when the ear infections started and the tapeworms could have come from anywhere; best news was that was her ONLY worms) and figured I'd let the breeder know it was found in case she doesn't grow out of it. We talked calmly and he explained that he stands by his dogs. While he will not do any coverage charge of any percentage of the original price, he will take the puppy back and replace her or if it became bad enough (any genetic problem) and I was too attached, he would give me another puppy from a different breeding later on.


This sounds like he is going to stand behind your pup, and you will be able to talk with him about it as time goes on and you find out more about the heart murmur and how serious it is. Worms are pretty much standard in puppies, I don't think I've ever known a pup not to wind up with them, but that doesn't mean much as I haven't known every dog in the world. Keep your chin up and keep in close touch with him, and you might find that things will work out for the best in the end. 



> On the other hand, he also told me that the pups papers came in and he's getting them shipped out to me which is also a weight lifted off my shoulders.
> 
> I just don't want to be left in the dark and didn't want to have to give up my puppy, especially after all the money I spent on her today.


Cool, you'll have your papers which will be nice. As far as being in the dark, like I said before, just keep your line of communication open with him, and hope for the best. Of COURSE you love your puppy already, how could you not? She sounds like a really smart girl, and you're already getting some training on her, which is awesome for a youngster. And it doesn't sound like you will have to give her up - rather you may have to accept a future pup for service work if she isn't up to it with her heart. We also have a service candidate here, and it would be crushing if he wound up with something that would prevent him from doing the job, so I can relate to what you're feeling on that part.

It sounds to me from reading what you've posted that you've been through some massive icky stuff in the last few weeks, and that could also be coloring how you're feeling when you post. I can see how some of the posts here might seem like they are attacking you, but reading it from the 'outside' so to speak, I don't think that's anybody's intention. If it's really getting to you a lot, it might not hurt to take a sort of break from the forum, or just stick to super happy topics while you get through all the junk that's going on and get healed. I can't imagine being able to be anything resembling a nice human with all that going on, so you've got me beat there. 

I really wish you the best with your pretty little girl, and I hope that things settle down in your life as well.


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