# Training Cesar's way..... For 6K



## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

What are your thoughts on Cesar having a workshop at his dog facility, and charging 6K for each participant?

Here's the link:

Training Cesar's Way - A new teaching course for dog owners & beginning trainers


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

BS and desperate.


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## DTS (Oct 19, 2010)

Well it says it helps train you and your dog plus if you want to be a trainer that it will do that for you as well. I assume its meant as an add on for people are already trainers. 
I see someone taking this course and then trying to say he was trained by Cesar and becoming a professional trainer off of a 5 day course and getting dog owners to hire him/her as their trainer. 
Personally I don't think it teaches you everything you need to know about dog behavior and training a dog in 5 days. 
I also kind of feel like its kind of saying in 5 days and for 6k you can train like Cesar. 
Bottom line even if I had 6K to spare it isn't something I would personally be interested in.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

DTS said:


> I see someone taking this course and then trying to say he was trained by Cesar and becoming a professional trainer off of a 5 day course and getting dog owners to hire him/her as their trainer.


Looking at the agenda, it looks like Cesar is actually doing very little teaching. Not to mention the very vague descriptions of the exercises.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

$5950 he will get it too, judging by demographics in the market out there.


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## Gharrissc (May 19, 2012)

Trainers have workshops all of the time. The only issue I have is that some people may go off on their own thinking they know everything to become a professional in 5 days.There may be additional followup though.


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## GusGus (Oct 24, 2012)

That seems extremely outrageous to me..


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

A fool and his money are soon parted. 

If Cesar can separate the green backs from the fools who currently have them, more power to him.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Gharrissc said:


> Trainers have workshops all of the time. The only issue I have is that some people may go off on their own thinking they know everything to become a professional in 5 days.There may be additional followup though.


Exactly....people will use the workshop as their training credentials....and so it goes. 
Does Cesar now call himself a trainer?

I'd go to ME's school if I wanted to part with my $$.

Wonder how they eval which dogs they'll allow in?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Gretchen said:


> BS and *desperate.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Someone sure is!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

This is better! from the famous Virginia Stillwell and her organization!

*"If you’re marketing savvy… you know what a strong brand can do for you—and how time-consuming and expensive it is to build one. By aligning your business with a household name like Victoria’s, you can magnify the effect of your marketing efforts."*

*I guess any trainer wil become a better trainer by aligning their dog training business with a famous "dog trainer" like VS.*

*Wonder how much THIS approach will cost?*
*Also wonder if there are any test/evaluations needed to align with VS - or maybe just an application fee?*

*Anybody know?*


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Is Virginia Victoria's long lost sister?


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

If you consider the fact that for a lot of Cesar's clients 6K is like $6 to the rest of the world, this is actually quite a steal...


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

How many of Cesars clients would care to spend their time in a workshop? They'd rather pay to have their dogs trained, not learn how to do it on their own.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

martemchik said:


> If you consider the fact that for a lot of Cesar's clients 6K is like $6 to the rest of the world, this is actually quite a steal...


I disagree..
Many of Cesar's clients on TV, were stars, performers, etc... But I'd bet that his income stream was generated from the middle class dog owner, that looked forward to learning a few tidbits by watching his show.

So, IMO, A lot of Cesar's REAL clients would have a very hard time spending 6K on a week long workshop, not including airfare, and hotel accommodations. Very easily could be a 10K week.
Absolutely absurd, and a slap in the face.



onyx'girl said:


> How many of Cesars clients would care to spend their time in a workshop? They'd rather pay to have their dogs trained, not learn how to do it on their own.


Agree 100%.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

But if there is one thing I like about Cesar is that he really does like to teach the people how to handle their dog rather than train it to listen to anybody. I don't want this thread turning into another trainer bash but from what I've seen he really only takes the bad cases to his "dog psycology center." Most other times he does train the actual owners on how to deal with issues (and I don't care if you don't agree with his method of fixing certain problems).

I don't really get why we're arguing about this. There was a thread earlier about "how much do you pay for training." The range was anywhere from $20 to $100 for a private one hour lesson. Well...Cesar's people have decided that his rate for this class is $6000, and I can guarantee it will be full. So what if those people then go out and think they can train every dog in the world? MOST dog trainers that work at petsmart believe this anyways. To me...$100 an hour sounds outrageous as well since I pay about $200 a year for training.

He's not "screwing" anyone out of their money. They know what they're paying for. If they don't like it, they'll complain about it and I'm sure we'll hear all about it on this forum.

And...I wonder what his true hourly rate is...especially if he has to fly out to see you like he does on many of his episoded (my guess is that when its on TV you get the training for free). But if he actually had to do that, you are probably paying close to $1000 for the day with him anyways.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> Is Virginia Victoria's long lost sister?


Whatever we call her, more your type evidently - so you decide what you want to refer to VS as. By either her name or a typo, she still offers the same value, don't you agree?


BTW, nice to notice that you noticed my typo!


But I noticed that you also ignored the intended question and comparison to Cesar's actual training offering. 

VS just mentioned a "marketing" agreement - suggests where her *real *interests (and skills!) lie, don't you think?


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Like martemchik said....

Free Market principles dictate the price on something like this. Consumers can choose to pay/attend or not.

If (for example) Cesar has a 100 seat venue and chooses to market to a smaller audience for a higher $$$ amount and it works....that's his and the consumer's choice. 

If he cannot garner enough people at that price he'll have to adjust.

Personally....I'm in the rent/borrow/buy used DVDs from trainers (like Micheal Ellis) price category.....


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

So what are people complaining about now? The price? Of course it would be $6,000, he's a celebrity and the course is 37 hours long, which is just a little over $160 an hour. You won't get Tiger Woods to give you golf lessons for the average going rate either.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Syaoransbear said:


> So what are people complaining about now? The price? Of course it would be $6,000, he's a celebrity and the course is 37 hours long, which is just a little over $160 an hour. *You won't get Tiger Woods to give you golf lessons for the average going rate either*.


:thumbup::thumbup: *YES!*

More of the same CM bashing, that's all...drives me nuts. :crazy:


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## billsharp (May 3, 2011)

I will never understand the disdain on this website for Cesar. He is a very knowledgeable trainer, with proven methods for the specific problem he addresses: casual dog owners with common, simple behavior problems in pet dogs. 

Most importantly, he (for the first time ever) has shown millions of average people sitting at home that they can and should relate to their dogs as dogs, and discipline and train them, and that the bad habits can be broken and the dog behave properly. I don't recall anyone with that message reaching such an audience as he has. IMHO he has performed a very valuable service to dog owners and those who have to be around dogs, and if he has been paid well and parlayed his fame into money, good for him.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> :thumbup::thumbup: *YES!*
> 
> More of the same CM bashing, that's all...drives me nuts. :crazy:


Golf clubs don't bite. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> I'd go to ME's school if I wanted to part with my $$.


Me too - for 1/6th of the price!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Golf clubs don't bite.


But I bet I can do way more damage with my sand wedge than a dog bite can do!


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> Golf clubs don't bite.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


Hmm I don't know, my husband golfs and I think your average golfer is more dangerous than your average dog . My husband's family always pesters their son in law because last summer he got so angry he broke a 6 iron against a tree.


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## Whiteshepherds (Aug 21, 2010)

I'd go if I had the money and didn't live all the way on the other side of the country. The guy went from rags to riches doing what he loves to do, we should all have that kind of determination and passion. 
I bet the course is pretty interesting. Heck, I'd just like to spend time with his pack and see his operation in person.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I thought this yayhoo was using Cesar as some sort of mentor -- he did at least use the title that Cesar has been given here. Anyone know if they actually ever did work together?
Africa’s Dog Whisperer’s Dog Attacks 4 Year Old Girl at Mall | Life With Dogs


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

He is a heck of a marketer and lives the American Dream. He sells CM water at Petco (at least a few years ago). If you can do that, than you deserve the $$$ from people who are crazy enough to pay for it.
Remember you don't have to pay the $6000.00 in order to train your dogs.
I don't get the hype about this.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Putting his fee aside, does anyone actually believe that a 5 day workshop (with god knows how many other dogs), could be a life changing event for a dog and owner?
I'd be willing to pay 6k for a reasonable amount of training and continuous input, spread out over a reasonable amount of time. There is just no way anyone could walk away with a fix for their dog in a week. 
Maybe if it was a week of one on one, but that's not the case. 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

I don't think the workshops are for fixing issues...more for people to train under Cesar and then leave with the credentials of having trained under Cesar. The agenda states no dogs with aggression will be allowed. 

_"No red zone cases or seriously dog and/or people aggressive cases are allowed."_

*from codmaster*


> Whatever we call her, *more your type evidently* - so you decide what you want to refer to VS as. By either her name or a typo, she still offers the same value, don't you agree?
> BTW, nice to notice that you noticed my typo
> But I noticed that you also ignored the intended question and comparison to Cesar's actual training offering.
> 
> VS just mentioned a "marketing" agreement - suggests where her real interests (and skills!) lie, don't you think?


 
What do you mean *by more your type evidently?* 
Marketing is key in almost every trainer. ME has Ed Frawley marketing his school. Nothing wrong with marketing, but the proof is in the pudding.


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## Gretchen (Jan 20, 2011)

This may be part of the motivation for the $$$$ - 
Dog Whisperer Facing Big Payout in Divorce | Fox News Latino


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

billsharp said:


> I will never understand the disdain on this website for Cesar. He is a very knowledgeable trainer, with proven methods for the specific problem he addresses: casual dog owners with common, simple behavior problems in pet dogs.
> 
> Most importantly, he (for the first time ever) has shown millions of average people sitting at home that they can and should relate to their dogs as dogs, and discipline and train them, and that the bad habits can be broken and the dog behave properly. I don't recall anyone with that message reaching such an audience as he has. IMHO he has performed a very valuable service to dog owners and those who have to be around dogs, and if he has been paid well and parlayed his fame into money, good for him.


Agree 100%. Funny how people bash CM - & yet so many people linger at every word by the Hollywood types (beauty & no brains) -& look what THOSE people make! I still say it comes down to the Little Green monster, when it comes to CM & this forum...


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Meh. CM is certainly NOT the first or only person to charge a pretty penny for training workshops. I might not agree with all of his methods but I don't see this as "desperate" or anything like that. He's a trainer; this is his job. Same as Ellis, Bellon, Stillwell.... I know of people that pay up the wazoo to ship their dogs to CA and then attend Ellis' school for days or weeks. If they can afford it, the dogs have fun, and they learn something valuable then I won't sit here and bitch about it. Trainers charge what they feel it is worth. If people want to pay it, I'm not losing sleep over it.


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

I had to skip a few words to read it all but, what? I could say much. What ticks a trainer off more then anything is when you give your heart and soul for what you do and the person (you help) does not even care enough to do what is right for a dog, but for them selves.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Harmony - just a side note - Love your updated avatar of the Little Guy + Furball!


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

onyx'girl said:


> *from codmaster*
> 
> What do you mean *by more your type evidently?*


Oh, he's just making assumptions again.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Anthony8858 said:


> Putting his fee aside, does anyone actually believe that a 5 day workshop (with god knows how many other dogs), could be a life changing event for a dog and owner?
> I'd be willing to pay 6k for a reasonable amount of training and continuous input, spread out over a reasonable amount of time. There is just no way anyone could walk away with a fix for their dog in a week.
> Maybe if it was a week of one on one, but that's not the case.


We get enough people on the forum wanting to send their dogs off to some trainer to fix all their issues...or believing that they can send their puppies to some guy for a month and it will come back a trained killer that will protect its family to the death. I remember one guy saying how he was talking to a trainer that said his dog was finished with obedience at 6 months old and could soon start protection training.

Wonder how much all those places cost...so yeah people do believe that there are magical quick fixes to issues or even people out there that can train their dogs to do things within days when it would take a regular owner months or years.

I also have a question of why Ellis is being brought up over and over again? Is he the end all be all of dog trainers? Why is that? Because some of you agree with his methods, you've seen them work, he's not on TV? It's just interesting why one trainer gets bashed on a consistent basis while another one gets praised. I don't know what Ellis's fees are...but I wouldn't pay them either.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Cassidy's Mom said:


> Oh, he's just making assumptions again.


 
Correct! I am in fact assuming that you are assuming that!


Don't you?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Gretchen said:


> This may be part of the motivation for the $$$$ -
> Dog Whisperer Facing Big Payout in Divorce | Fox News Latino


 
An assumption?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

GusGus said:


> That seems extremely outrageous to me..


 
Can we assume that you will not be signing up?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> How many of Cesars clients would care to spend their time in a workshop? They'd rather pay to have their dogs trained, not learn how to do it on their own.


 
Without hard objective data from Mr. Milan's business, I guess that we on this forum will just have to assume how many client's would care.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Anthony8858 said:


> Putting his fee aside, does anyone actually believe that a 5 day workshop (with god knows how many other dogs), could be a life changing event for a dog and owner?
> I'd be willing to pay 6k for a reasonable amount of training and continuous input, spread out over a reasonable amount of time. There is just no way anyone could walk away with a fix for their dog in a week.
> Maybe if it was a week of one on one, but that's not the case.
> 
> ...


 
Was the seminar on training your dog while at the seminar? I thought it was to "teach the teacher" to better teach the dog.

Maybe one of us has misread the purpose of the class?


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

onyx'girl said:


> I don't think the workshops are for fixing issues...more for people to train under Cesar and then leave with the credentials of having trained under Cesar. The agenda states no dogs with aggression will be allowed.
> 
> _"No red zone cases or seriously dog and/or people aggressive cases are allowed."_
> 
> ...


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## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

What is the VS approach?


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

codmaster, I could care less what VS does or doesn't do. Or CM. I don't subscribe to either one of their training styles...not sure why you ASSume I'm pro or con either one. I'd rather go out and train with a group of people who've been doing it for many years. 
I'll go to workshops to learn other methods, no problem. And I've paid $150 for a weekend of training(when I didn't even get day 2 because I had to return home for a family emergency)$150 is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
But I don't sit and watch those shows to learn how to deal with my fear reactive dog. And I don't think paying 6 grand for schmoozing with a TV dog trainer star is going to make me a better trainer.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Dotty said:


> What is the VS approach?


She's purely positive? I've not watched enough of her shows to even know what she'd do with a dog going up the leash at her. Probably boot it away with her stiletto? Victoria Stilwell Positively| About VSPDT


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## wolfy dog (Aug 1, 2012)

There must be a lot of cutting and pasting going on before they air the shows from both these celebrities and they must select the households very carefully before they help these owners. After all it is all about the viewer numbers and the big $$$s.


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

wolfy dog said:


> There must be a lot of cutting and pasting going on before they air the shows from both these celebrities and they must select the households very carefully before they help these owners. After all it is all about the viewer numbers and the big $$$s.


this! i have been telling my kids for years, what they show on tv is not real life ! that being said, i have met trainers that have given me the results and knowledge i need to to have well behaved dogs that are fun to live with.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> codmaster, I could care less what VS does or doesn't do. Or CM. I don't subscribe to either one of their training styles...not sure why you ASSume I'm pro or con either one. I'd rather go out and train with a group of people who've been doing it for many years.
> I'll go to workshops to learn other methods, no problem. And I've paid $150 for a weekend of training(when I didn't even get day 2 because I had to return home for a family emergency)$150 is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
> But I don't sit and watch those shows to learn how to deal with my fear reactive dog. *And I don't think paying 6 grand for schmoozing with a TV dog trainer star is going to make me a better trainer.*


^^^This.
I wish it were that easy.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

onyx'girl said:


> codmaster, I could care less what VS does or doesn't do. Or CM. I don't subscribe to either one of their training styles...not sure why you ASSume I'm pro or con either one. I'd rather go out and train with a group of people who've been doing it for many years.
> I'll go to workshops to learn other methods, no problem. And I've paid $150 for a weekend of training(when I didn't even get day 2 because I had to return home for a family emergency)$150 is a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things.
> But I don't sit and watch those shows to learn how to deal with my fear reactive dog. *And I don't think paying 6 grand for schmoozing with a TV dog trainer star is going to make me a better trainer.*


^^^This. I agree.
I wish it were that easy.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

selzer said:


> I thought this yayhoo was using Cesar as some sort of mentor -- he did at least use the title that Cesar has been given here. Anyone know if they actually ever did work together?
> Africa’s Dog Whisperer’s Dog Attacks 4 Year Old Girl at Mall | Life With Dogs


Anyone can call themselves a "dog whisperer" though, it doesn't really mean anything. In fact Paul Owens was using the term quite a while before Cesar started calling himself "the dog whisperer" and Owens' methods are much more in line with what I would think of if I heard the term "whispering".


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Chicagocanine said:


> Anyone can call themselves a "dog whisperer" though, it doesn't really mean anything. In fact Paul Owens was using the term quite a while before Cesar started calling himself "the dog whisperer" and Owens' methods are much more in line with what I would think of if I heard the term "whispering".


:thumbup:
I always think of Monty Roberts when I hear the term whisperer. Paul Owens should have trade-marked it as he had the dog whisperer coined first!


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Anthony8858,

OK - I'm sure this thread has turned out exactly as you wanted - another CM bashing thread. Job well-done.

Now that everyone has given their thoughts - AGAIN - on the man, can we move on?

Those that don't like CM will forEVER chase these threads in an effort to say how bad he is. Those that are like the guy will do the same. No news there.

Put aside your jealousy that he can get 6K for training so-called dog trainers. Maybe you can only get $100/hr. Whatever. Get OVER it!!

We've paid anywhere from $65 - 200 / hr for assinine trainers. I'd GLADLY pay the $$ - if I had it - for training. As often as I've complained about our Rrescue dog or her trainers - I notice none of you have "volunteered" your wondrous expertise - either for free or for $200/hr. I rest my case.

People either like CM or hate him. But how often do we have to go over the same crap? Put your money where your mouth is. If you don't like the man - then ignore the threads about him. Geez...:crazy::crazy::crazy:


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

It's silly to say that it is jealousy. Most of the trainers I know that don't like his methods, it has nothing to do with the man himself or how much money he makes, it is about the methods he uses, his misinterpretations of dog body language, and his comparing dogs and wolves even though the wolf studies that gave rise to things like the alpha roll have since been discredited. I've heard comments (from well known trainers) such as "Cesar Millan has set dog training back 20 years".
If it was not for those issues they would most likely have no problems with him,they don't care how much money he makes. It's not like there aren't enough dogs that need training/behavioral help to go around.
Do you think the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (and several other organizations IIRC) issued statements against the type of methods used in his show because they are jealous? If that was the case why wouldn't they have similar statements regarding other popular trainers methods?


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't particularly like him because he has nothing to offer me. I don't see him training dogs to a high level, participating in events at a regional or even local level. He's just putting on a show fixing what stupid people have caused. I blame the owners and I do appreciate his honestly and bluntness with them but to me this is not "dog training" it is just common sense. I have a well bred dog that is not afraid of slippery floors, doesn't attack me when I get on my own bed, doesn't chase shadows on the wall, and behaves himself around other dogs so what can CM offer me? Nothing. I guess if he can offer someone else something worth $6000 good for him.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Chicagocanine said:


> It's silly to say that it is jealousy. Most of the trainers I know that don't like his methods, it has nothing to do with the man himself or how much money he makes, it is about the methods he uses, his misinterpretations of dog body language, and his comparing dogs and wolves even though the wolf studies that gave rise to things like the alpha roll have since been discredited. I've heard comments (from well known trainers) such as "Cesar Millan has set dog training back 20 years".
> If it was not for those issues they would most likely have no problems with him,they don't care how much money he makes. It's not like there aren't enough dogs that need training/behavioral help to go around.
> Do you think the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (and several other organizations IIRC) issued statements against the type of methods used in his show because they are jealous? If that was the case why wouldn't they have similar statements regarding other popular trainers methods?


This exactly!

He's an idiot, it is that simple. I don't care if he's a rich or poor (financially) idiot, but he's an idiot. 
If he was a dingbat living down the road and "giving" his services away, I'd say the same thing. 
And I'm not a trainer!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

And the Cesar fans will come on and defend him tooth and nail, calling those who do not bow down and worship the ground he walks on, jealous, and now we have never offered assistance or help to people, who have issues. Whatever. 

The guy isn't God's gift to dogs or dog trainers. Out of one side of the mouthes of those who worship him, they say "it says don't try this at home." On the other side, they say that so many people learn from him and use his methods to great effect. I can only go by what I have seen, and I have seen more dogs harmed by Cesar's methods, than dogs helped.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> This exactly!
> 
> He's an idiot, it is that simple. I don't care if he's a rich or poor (financially) idiot, but he's an idiot.
> If he was a dingbat living down the road and "giving" his services away, I'd say the same thing.
> And I'm not a trainer!


 
Maybe it would help you understand if you were?


"Idiot" - kind of harsh??????????????????


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Olivers mama said:


> Anthony8858,
> 
> *OK - I'm sure this thread has turned out exactly as you wanted - another CM bashing thread. Job well-done.
> *
> ...



Not sure if I should laugh at this ^^^

I have NEVER bashed CM, and don't start flame wars. I've watched his show, and picked up various tidbits myself.

I was merely curious what everyone's thoughts would be about CM charging 6K for a "few hours" of group training.

It is NOT geared towards trainers (as others have mentioned). I think most knowledgeable trainers wouldn't need his psychology center to learn how to handle a dog. 

My REAL concern is how many people will walk out of there, shh'in, and kickin' their dogs, thinking their 6K made them dog experts in a week.

I'm sorry, I don't dislike CM. I think he's awesome. ..sometimes.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> And the Cesar fans will come on and defend him tooth and nail, calling those who do not bow down and worship the ground he walks on, jealous, and now we have never offered assistance or help to people, who have issues. Whatever.
> 
> The guy isn't God's gift to dogs or dog trainers. Out of one side of the mouthes of those who worship him, they say "it says don't try this at home." On the other side, they say that so many people learn from him and use his methods to great effect. I can only go by what I have seen, and *I have seen more dogs harmed by Cesar's methods, than dogs helped*.


 
You have actually seen and been in contact with some of the dogs that Cesar trained? 

Were these dogs any that were shown on his TV show or did you have contact with some of his private work with clients and their dogs?

It must have been very interesting to you to actually meet and interact with some of the dogs that were rehabilitated by Cesar. 

What did their owners have to say about having Cesar himself actually work with them and their dogs?

Did you have a chance to meet many of these dogs and owners or just a few?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Codmaster, please read my post again. I have never even suggested what you are saying.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> It is NOT geared towards trainers (as others have mentioned). I think most knowledgeable trainers wouldn't need his psychology center to learn how to handle a dog.
> 
> My REAL concern is how many people will walk out of there, shh'in, and kickin' their dogs, thinking their 6K made them dog experts in a week.
> 
> .


Well, if the amount of people who do that after just watching his show (which even has a disclaimer) is any indication....I'd say most likely quite a few.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

selzer said:


> Codmaster, *please read my post again*. I have never even suggested what you are saying.


I did exactly that and here is a piece of your post:

"*I have seen more dogs harmed by Cesar's methods, than dogs helped*."

Well, what else would a reader of *your quote* from your earlier post?

So are you admitting that you have not really seen ANY dogs that were ruined by Mr. Milan?

How many dogs were you referring to in your above statement, anyway? 
1, 3, 5, 10, more than 10? 

And I would be very interested in exactly what you meant by "ruined" in your statement? 

Physically harmed or mentally harmed, or maybe even both?


Your statement seemed to be a very definitive one about the results that *you* had seen from Mr. Milan so I was very curious as to what you were basing it on.

(Other than a very obvious and often professed dislike, evidently, of Mr. Milan and his methods!)


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## Syaoransbear (Sep 25, 2008)

Anthony8858 said:


> Not sure if I should laugh at this ^^^
> 
> I have NEVER bashed CM, and don't start flame wars. I've watched his show, and picked up various tidbits myself.
> 
> ...


I think the people who come out of there are going to be less likely to be the ones 'pshttt'ing their dogs than the people who watch one episode from the first season and think they have it all figured out. The 'pssht' thing he does isn't the bulk of his methods, it's just one that seems to be popular because it's a unique noise and if you make it then EVERYONE knows you are using a name brand training technique . If you exercise your dog or don't allow it to get away with bad behavior, that's just considered common sense. And the bulk of Cesar's methods are just common sense, which just doesn't market as well as "psssshttt!" .


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Syaoransbear said:


> I think the people who come out of there are going to be less likely to be the ones 'pshttt'ing their dogs than the people who watch one episode from the first season and think they have it all figured out. The 'pssht' thing he does isn't the bulk of his methods, it's just one that seems to be popular because it's a unique noise and if you make it then EVERYONE knows you are using a name brand training technique . If you exercise your dog or don't allow it to get away with bad behavior, that's just considered common sense. *And the bulk of Cesar's methods are just common sense, which just doesn't market as well as "psssshttt!"* .


I agree with you --- & I love your wording. Thank You!


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

codmaster said:


> Maybe it would help you understand if you were?


Understand...what?? 
I am not a professional trainer. But I train dogs daily. I just am not going to sit around saying I'm a trainer because, well, there's nothing magic in determining what a dog needs and working with it that way as opposed to using a one size fits all method that got this dingbat bitten not long ago 



codmaster said:


> "Idiot" - kind of harsh??????????????????


I'd say "if the shoe fits", but it's not you I'm talking about, is it? 
So, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't shove it on the dude :thumbup:


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

codmaster said:


> I did exactly that and here is a piece of your post:
> 
> "*I have seen more dogs harmed by Cesar's methods, than dogs helped*."
> 
> ...


Codmaster, I am sick and flipping tired of you putting words in people's mouthes, putting words in MY mouth. I want for you to quote the post on this thread where I said "ruined" because that is a term I really do not like to use about ANY dog or person. 

I did use the word "harmed." I said "harmed by Cesar's methods" which is a world of difference between that and "harmed by Cesar." Anyone can practice what they see Cesar doing, and I have seen it over and over and over again, where these dogs are harmed by people doing the things that Cesar does. 

I have rehabilitated dogs that have been harmed by Cesar's methods. And I have tried to talk numerous people out of doing what they have seen Cesar doing on TV. Who are they going to listen to? The guy with a TV show for sure. But for those of us who are out there working with dogs, who are active in training with other people and other dogs, Cesar's name is not the same for us, as it is for those who stay at home and psssst at their dogs and get a response. The vast majority of real live dog trainers that I work with or have worked with do not have anything great to say about him.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

selzer said:


> The vast majority of real live dog trainers that I work with or have worked with do not have anything great to say about him.


Selzer - I generally agree with most of what you say / offer. But this one comment? No, I cannot. Of COURSE other "trainers" are going to bash the man. I'm sure they all say they can "fix" a dog that CM has "ruined". In fact, we went to 2 different trainers who claimes they were The Best. One even said he could FIX any dog better than CM. We don't get the Natl Geo channel, so I had no idea to whom he was referring. But then, of course, he went on to further damage our Rescue with his training methods. And, as if we weren't stupid enough, we fired that idiot & hired yet another one. Had we not snuck up on this woman, we would never have known what she was doing to our dog. Suffice it to say SHE is lucky my hubby was also there - to hold me back. Because I would've kicked that woman's b-hind all the way into the next state. And we "only" spent 4K between these 2 rescue-group-endorsed individuals. I'd GLADLY spend 6K (if I had it) on someone with proven results - be it CM or VS. (ME makes me gag - he's a wannabe Famous Dog Trainer - IMO)

But where do people go for decent training? If you go on referrals, you get Jow Blow who hangs out a shingle, charges big bucks, and gives you a dog with more problems than she had when she went there in the first place.

You didn't like my comment about no one wanting to help from this forum - which is why these famous people get so many followers. My biggest problem with this dog was the way she liked to bite women. No one here offered any help - everyone backs off when you bring up a biting problem. If we could get beyond that - I was fully prepared to go back to the only training type I knew. But I HAD to stop the biting. When no one here or another forum wouldn't help, I sent notes to both CM & VS websites. VS couldn't be bothered. But a rep from CM did. Turns out, his anti-biting suggestion was the same as a K9 friend of ours. A few months of this man working with this dog has broken the habit. I haven't been bitten in months. Sometimes she's still too mouthy (IMO) when giving her a treat, but there's been a huge turn-around. I'm sorry, but a GSD's teeth sinking into my flesh was not fun.

Maybe people turn to trainers like CM because he's the only one that will help. My own opinion is that I prefer training somewhere in the middle of CM & VS. Not all training methods work for all dogs. And working with blank slates - puppies - is a whole different scenario than working with an older Rescue. If people like me search everywhere for answers & get none - you can't blame us for looking elsewhere.


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## onyx'girl (May 18, 2007)

Gosh, I'd go with Leslie McDevitt, Karen Pryor or Brenda Aloff for help instead of a high profile television star. 
But luckily we have so many good trainer/behaviorists right in my state, I don't need to go to LA for help.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> You didn't like my comment about no one wanting to help from this forum - which is why these famous people get so many followers. My biggest problem with this dog was the way she liked to bite women. No one here offered any help - everyone backs off when you bring up a biting problem.


What exactly would you like people on this forum to do? Those on this forum with the experience and skills to handle a dog that bites know better than to dish out advice over the internet on a dog they have never met and can't see. I'm sure there are plenty of people that if you were in their area would have helped you. I know I've wanted to post on enough of your posts saying how difficult rescues are and complaining that no one on this forum has helped you but the truth is, I live across the country so what good would that do either of us?

This is an internet forum, not the bible on dog training. MANY respected trainers who have been at it MUCH longer than CM agree that he is dangerous and cannot properly read canine behavior. It is not jealousy. These people are just as famous, get just as much money for their seminars and help just as many dogs.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

What makes the people that would go to this seminar (pay $6000) and come out saying they know everything, different from the ones that go to a different seminar with trainer x (pay less than $6000) and come out saying they know everything? Is there a statistic that more people do this after going to a Cesar seminar than another trainer's seminar?

Also...are we now judging other trainer by the number of dogs WE have personally fixed that have been trained in that trainer's methods? So if someone comes to me (an novice trainer/instructor) and tells me that they trained their dog in 100% compulsion, I tell them to start correcting a little and it works...does that mean 100% compulsion is complete crap because I have seen problem dogs trained with it and then my method fixed it?

I feel like this thread has turned into...I've met 10 people that have "psht" their dog and they were terrible owners and their dogs were terribly trained. This means they trained in Cesar's method and so he is terrible. Remember...99% of the people that do Cesar's method, have never trained WITH Cesar. They also would probably never even consider taking obedience classes with their dogs which has nothing to do with Cesar but with the type of people they are and possibly $$$.

I think the issue is how easily Cesar is able to reach the average American. If he wasn't able to do it that easily, or wasn't as known, no one would have an issue with him (there are much much much worse training methods out there being pushed by bigger idiots than him), but since he's on TV, people know him, people can whine about it.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Oliver's Mama, the comment I made was specific to me, it doesn't matter if you agree or not. For me, the vast majority of trainers I work with, or have worked with have nothing great to say about CM. But that statement does not hold true for you, in that the trainers you have dealt with either do have great things to say about CM, or they will not because there is competition.

I was at a party tonight with a bunch of dog trainers in my area. Most were people who show, many train as well as show. I have worked with most of them. None of them would diss CM because of the competition or because of jealousy. These people don't have to. They have successful businesses working with dogs and people. They are perfectly happy to have other trainers around doing a good job, they actually trade training classes and work their dogs in the other's classes. They know who has success working with dogs with serious problems and refer people to them. It isn't about competition, not here.


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## Bsalsbery (Dec 14, 2012)

Can anyone recommend a reputable trainer in the indpls, in area?


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

martemchik said:


> What makes the people that would go to this seminar (pay $6000) and come out saying they know everything, different from the ones that go to a different seminar with trainer x (pay less than $6000) and come out saying they know everything? Is there a statistic that more people do this after going to a Cesar seminar than another trainer's seminar?
> 
> Also...are we now judging other trainer by the number of dogs WE have personally fixed that have been trained in that trainer's methods? So if someone comes to me (an novice trainer/instructor) and tells me that they trained their dog in 100% compulsion, I tell them to start correcting a little and it works...does that mean 100% compulsion is complete crap because I have seen problem dogs trained with it and then my method fixed it?
> 
> ...


I think it is because so many people are looking for a quick and easy fix for their dog. They watch a 30 minute episode and Cesar makes it look pretty easy. They will then apply it to their dog, and if it works, they are instant fans. They had success and didn't have to spend anything on it. If it backfires, they will go to a local trainer and insist that what they are doing is right because they saw Cesar do it. Great. Or they will tell you how to train your dog, what you are doing wrong, family members are suddenly dog training experts, and they don't even own a dog. Yay! Perfect strangers will Pssst! your dog, or tell you you better alpha roll that dog or it is going to be a huge problem. Really?


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

gsdraven said:


> What exactly would you like people on this forum to do? Those on this forum with the experience and skills to handle a dog that bites know better than to dish out advice over the internet on a dog they have never met and can't see.
> This is an internet forum, not the bible on dog training. MANY respected trainers who have been at it MUCH longer than CM agree that he is dangerous and cannot properly read canine behavior. It is not jealousy. These people are just as famous, get just as much money for their seminars and help just as many dogs.


I expected HELP. DIRECTION. This forum gives out advice every single day - from what to feed, to how to walk, etc. ALL are potentially dangerous subjects. Especially on an internet forum. But if people on this forum are gonna tell how "good" they are - be it training, or feeding, or what darn color dog bowl to buy - then YES, I certainly DID expect some help. Some direction. Yes, I was sorely disappointed - but I keep coming back. This forum dishes out opinions like squares of toilet paper - but when someone asks the hard questions, they balk. Wonder why people like CM, VS, ME - make their money? Because people who proclaim to know this breed better than anyone else won't help. So Joe Citizan (like me) is left with 3rd-rate local trainers (& I use that term loosely) to help resolve a problem.

I fully understand this is an internet forum, not a dog training facility. But if you're not gonna help train - why have special categories for training then? There a bazillion who've been screwed by so-called trainers. Come to a specific breed forum for what (we think) are breed-specific problems. That's a cop-out.

And can you name other "famous trainers" who are "just as famous" & get "just as much money"?


I'm sorry - I don't buy it. I came here looking to learn, looking for answers, looking for direction. And the gist (sp) of what I got is: "I don't want to give advice, lest you get bitten again". <gag> Thanks - that advice sounds like the crap I got from my first oncologist - until I fired him.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

selzer said:


> ...so many people are looking for a quick and easy fix for their dog.


We weren't looking for an "easy fix". And we were willing - and DID pay high dollars with the "local experts". Did I ask for help dealing a battered Rescue? YES. Did I ask for help for some of her baggage - including the biting? YES. Wasn't looking for a "quick fix" - altho the quicker the better, as I got tired of bleeding hands...

Help. Direction. Suggestions. Anything is better than a send-off.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Olivers mama, a few weeks ago I went to a questions place on the internet where vets would answer questions. Of course they will not deal with emergencies. By the time I got to how much they would charge, you could get an answer with little detail and less instantly (can't think of the right word) for a small amount, medium or high so to get high detail very fast you would pay a bundle. 

I explained my question and went middle of the road. I gave as much detail as I could to get the best answer. The middle of the road cost was as much as I would have paid to go to a real live vet, who could see my dog, and maybe see something I wasn't paying attention to. I don't think I will do that again. I really cannot remember the question I had. I just remember that I read all the credentials for a veterinarian, and the person who answered me was a vet tech. Then when I asked where the vet was they were advertising, the handed my question off to a vet. Still, that is what I remember, that, and that I could have gone to a vet that could see my dog for that kind of money. 

A fool and his money are soon parted. 

And they were NOT going to deal with an emergency situation. 

Biting is an emergency situation. You can give reams of advice on house training, separation anxiety, submissive urination and puppy mouthiness, but when you give advice about a dog that is biting, you are playing with fire. A lot of people's advice would be to put the dog down. You obviously would not like that advice, but that advice is not likely to get you or your kids seriously injured or even killed. 

People say the dog bites. They say an 8 week old puppy bites. And sometimes a bite is a nip, and sometimes a bite is serious mauling. I don't think people should be too hasty with advice about biting. 

Your vet will not give you advice over the phone if the dog is disoriented or seizing they will want to see the dog.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> I think it is because so many people are looking for a quick and easy fix for their dog. They watch a 30 minute episode and Cesar makes it look pretty easy. They will then apply it to their dog, and if it works, they are instant fans. They had success and didn't have to spend anything on it. If it backfires, they will go to a local trainer and insist that what they are doing is right because they saw Cesar do it. Great. Or they will tell you how to train your dog, what you are doing wrong, family members are suddenly dog training experts, and they don't even own a dog. Yay! Perfect strangers will Pssst! your dog, or tell you you better alpha roll that dog or it is going to be a huge problem. Really?


I agree with you on most of this, but you're punishing Cesar for the way a majority of dog owners think. You're punishing Cesar for the interactions you've had with people that have the types of personalities which make them think that once they watch something, read something, see it done successfully...they're experts. It's not his fault that that's how most people think.

It's funny though, because this forum does the same exact thing. .Go on this guy's website, watch this guy's DVD, read this guy's book. You'll figure it out! Why do we give this advice? Most people come on here and say, "I don't have the money for training classes or a behaviorist." We can all agree that the best way to train a dog is to have hand on experience, have years of working through issues with many different dogs, and if you don't have it yourself you should see someone that can be objective and actually see what's going on. 99% of dog issues can only be solved by someone actually seeing the dog, but when $$$ is short, the forum recommends a $20 DVD or book. So tell me...what's the difference between that and watching Cesar on TV?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> You're punishing Cesar for the interactions you've had with people that have the types of personalities which make them think that once they watch something, read something, see it done successfully...they're experts. It's not his fault that that's how most people think.


I'm confused as to how Cesar is being "punished"? If he is, he's not showing signs of discomfort...??? 



> what's the difference between that and watching Cesar on TV?


Sound training vs. a hairbrained scheme liable to get yourself injured and a messed up dog?


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

martemchik said:


> I agree with you on most of this, but you're punishing Cesar for the way a majority of dog owners think. You're punishing Cesar for the interactions you've had with people that have the types of personalities which make them think that once they watch something, read something, see it done successfully...they're experts. It's not his fault that that's how most people think.
> 
> It's funny though, because this forum does the same exact thing. .Go on this guy's website, watch this guy's DVD, read this guy's book. You'll figure it out! Why do we give this advice? Most people come on here and say, "I don't have the money for training classes or a behaviorist." We can all agree that the best way to train a dog is to have hand on experience, have years of working through issues with many different dogs, and if you don't have it yourself you should see someone that can be objective and actually see what's going on. 99% of dog issues can only be solved by someone actually seeing the dog, but when $$$ is short, the forum recommends a $20 DVD or book. So tell me...what's the difference between that and watching Cesar on TV?


THANK YOU for this. I'm not as eloquent with my wording, but this is exactly my point.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> Understand...what??
> I am not a professional trainer. But I train dogs daily. I just am not going to sit around saying I'm a trainer because, well, there's nothing magic in determining what a dog needs and working with it that way as opposed to using a one size fits all method that got this dingbat bitten not long ago
> 
> 
> ...


 
So a very nice attitude, it would appear.

Well done reasoning and a logical approach as well.

And you make it very clear that I must agree with you about you not being a trainer - thanks for making that so clear to all of us readers on this forum.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> I'm confused as to how Cesar is being "punished"? If he is, he's not showing signs of discomfort...???
> 
> 
> Sound training vs. a hairbrained scheme liable to get yourself injured and a messed up dog?


First part...people are clearly showing their dislike of him. On a public, internet forum, people that have NO DIRECT KNOWLEDGE of him, are making huge assumptions of him and his training methods based on the people that they have met/seen in public. Which is fine...I've met plenty of Cesar followers that wouldn't know how to properly train a dog, I look at them the same way I look at all the other people that have poorly trained dogs and claim to have used this trainer or that trainer, or are part of a kennel/obedience club that doesn't know up from down when it comes to dog training.

Second part...everything you said is SUBJECTIVE. What we need to realize is that every single person on this forum is just as qualified as the one that posts after them on how to judge a trainer. It's fine if you believe his methods are bad/wrong, but I just find it interesting that whenever he comes up (or in this case that he's going to charge $6000 for a seminar) his methods seem to be ripped apart and bashed at a level much higher than any of the others that are ever mentioned on the forum.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Honestly I like CM up until the point that he touches a dog. If he ever tried to lay his hands on my dogs and do some of the things I've seen, it would be a race between who would get to his throat first me or my dog, lol. But the work that he does with the owners, just trying to get them to see some common sense, I think that is where he has value and based on his personality and delivery is actually able to get through to some owners that most of us probably wouldn't have the patience to deal with. 

I don't call what he does "training" because he's basically coaching/counseling owners on the basics of proper dog ownership. If someone needs to spend $6K to get the basics I guess that's their prerogative, I know some new parents that will spend $35 per cloth diaper on their first newborn. As far as I know he hasn't trained dogs to do much of anything...


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

If I have read a book that was helpful with a certain specific issue, I might recommend that book, as it helped me with that issue. But when people have a serious training issue, my advice is to come up with the money to go to a trainer. And a lot of the time it is a many pronged approach, read these books, look up NILIF, and get the money to go to a trainer. I think people will have better success with a trainer if they have better understanding of their dog, and of themselves, and how what they do affects what their dog does. There are no shortcuts, you have to read and look things up and have an open mind, and then you will be better suited to judge whether the trainer you picked is giving you good direction or not.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> Sound training vs. a hairbrained scheme liable to get yourself injured and a messed up dog?


But what if you already have a messed-up dog, Yvette? Lay-people like me turn to these famous idiots because no one else will help. Period. 

I'll take it 1 step further & ask how many of you would've kept this dog we have? Most of our relatives & friends told us to PTS. No darn way that was gonna happen. Both hubby & I "saw" --- in our uneducated eyes - the potential of a dog that came to us broken. Not her fault. After lots of money on idiotic trainers & unnecessary vet bills (test for this or that, maybe that's why she's messed up...), I came here for help. Luckily, I didn't take the discard to mean this dog still wasn't worth the effort.

Is she perfect now? Good Lord - NO. Would I PTS? NO. Would I give her away? NO. Because we now have a dog that knows she's loved. Bad storm on Xmas Day blew down 1 whole section of fence - it leans against our home. Perfect escape avenue for Ziva. Did she take off? No. We let her out back - she does her business, then waits @ the back door to come in. She comes in, wagging that dangerous tail as she meanders down the hall. Then lets out a "barr-roor-waroo-roo once she's in the living room. She won't leave. She knows she's loved & she knows she's safe. Oh yes, she's still a work in progress. She lays down beside me when I return from chemo. Hubby says she won't move until I wake up. And this, from a fear-biting dog months ago. I wouldn't give her up for the world.

Lack of action can sometimes send an owner into PTS. When no one will listen, no one will help, no one will give direction. Ziva is lucky she landed with us - we're both stubborn, outspoken Aires. And she pays us back 100-fold. Sometimes, she comes with us to the Infusion Center (where I get my chemo) - the patients love this 95lb puppy! And the nursing home where my former mom-in-law resides (she's late-stage Alzheimers)? They love her, too. (I think they en joy the cat, Oliver, more - because it's a rare thing to see a cat there visiting) - but this big ol' Lunkhead is a hit.

And that - to me - is worth so much more than a non-responding forum, or CM, or VS, or any of them. In spite of her beginnings, it is working.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Liesje said:


> Honestly I like CM up until the point that he touches a dog. If he ever tried to lay his hands on my dogs and do some of the things I've seen, it would be a race between who would get to his throat first me or my dog, lol. But the work that he does with the owners, just trying to get them to see some common sense, I think that is where he has value. I don't call what he does "training" because he's basically coaching/counseling owners. As far as I know he hasn't trained dogs to do much of anything...


So true! Of course I wouldn't let anyone touch my dog. But lets be serious...we don't have anywhere near the problems that the people on his show do. Be it genetics, well bred dogs, or the fact that when a problem comes up we fix it that day and not let it grow into a bigger issue. He teaches people that have no idea what they are doing, how to handle a dog. If you don't agree with his methods of doing it, fine, but its not the end of the world.

Like I've stated...there are trainers that suggest a lot worse than what Cesar does. I'm sure we all remember the guy that was shocking his 6 month old puppy at 55 with an ecollar and then spreading it on this forum like it was the greatest training method since the domestication of wolves. His trainer recommended that method...and he followed it, saw a result, and decided to tell the world about it. And Cesar doing his little finger poke is worse than that?


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I don't dislike him. Ok, he came into the country illegally and is still here -- that kind of bothers me. But I think he has a lot of gumption, and confidence, is not afraid of dogs, and could probably succeed with dogs using most any technique. 

I think he started out using more compulsion and alpha-theory crap, but I think he has actually matured some in his later shows. 

My first post on this thread, was, more power to him. I have read his book. But then I have read a lot of books by a lot of people. I think Ian Dunbar and Jan Fennel had better information in their books. I even had a book by that Brit we all liked when I was a kid, Walkies! Well, I read her book while my dad was getting an MRI, and I was shocked about the methods she was describing. If she was on the TV now, we would all be pounding on her too.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

martemchik said:


> So true! Of course I wouldn't let anyone touch my dog. But lets be serious...we don't have anywhere near the problems that the people on his show do. Be it genetics, well bred dogs, or the fact that when a problem comes up we fix it that day and not let it grow into a bigger issue. He teaches people that have no idea what they are doing, how to handle a dog. If you don't agree with his methods of doing it, fine, but its not the end of the world.
> 
> Like I've stated...there are trainers that suggest a lot worse than what Cesar does. I'm sure we all remember the guy that was shocking his 6 month old puppy at 55 with an ecollar and then spreading it on this forum like it was the greatest training method since the domestication of wolves. His trainer recommended that method...and he followed it, saw a result, and decided to tell the world about it. And Cesar doing his little finger poke is worse than that?


Well I guess for me there's not a spectrum of worse-ness. Some of the stuff I've seen CM do (publicly on his show) is not any better or worse than using the e-collar on a 6 month old dog. 

I really pick and choose what methods and tools I use and it always depends on the dog and the goal. I can't say "CM is the worst" because some of the stuff is OK, some is borderline abusive. Same is true for a lot of other trainers. I like a few things ME does but some of it I find useless or ridiculous. I guess I'm just too much of a control freak with my dogs to go along with any one trainer and their "methods". I pick and choose what works and I execute it myself. I'd rather make a few mistakes along the way and learn. The last seminar I attended, I got hassled by the helper for not allowing someone else to handle my dog's line during protection. Sorry that's just not how I train. My money, my time, my dog, my training.


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Our trainer is from Michael Ellis school. We are happy with her and with his approach.

For the record though his one day seminar to train people on his philosophy of training is $1950.00 for the day. He gets a lot of people at those seminars. 
So if you have the bucks you can go to anyone you want.

I don't understand why Cesar bothers people so much. If you don't like his approach don't pay any attention to what he does. Go find a trainer you like.

I think calling him an idiot because you don't like his philosophy or methods is just, well not printable here.

If no one will give any advice on dog bites they should remove the aggression forum. I've seen plenty of advice offered on dogs biting and everything else to do with aggression. 

Cheri Lucas who works with and trained with Cesar lives near me and I have met her at some dog events. She follows Cesar's philosophy and whether anyone likes it or not that woman loves dogs as much as anyone on here. I believe Cesar does too. 

Unfortunately there will be more Cesar threads and the haters will come out as usual.

To them, I say do your thing and let him do his.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

What's amazing is...he doesn't bother me worse than the dingbats on Craigslist, some of whom I know, who couldn't train their way out of a paperbag if they tried, or the ones I've been told about who recommended squirting a dog with water (and charged $$ for that) when it was fear aggressive, OH the list goes on.

But then there's these threads and we go, "Oh, yeah whatever, he doesn't walk on water" and people freak out. The reason these explode is that so many are so upset to hear anything remotely...not even bad, but even neutral about him!

He didn't hang the moon. No more than the trainers I see listing themselves on Craigslist because they taught their dog to sit.

For me to say that isn't a crime. It's not "punishing" or "insulting" to CM. I don't have any respect for him due to the hangup over alpha crap and some of the other things I've seen. I don't even have cable but if I did, I'd not watch his channel. 
And I spend time with adopters explaining why his alpha theory is all washed up.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Honestly I like CM up until the point that he touches a dog. *If he ever tried to lay his hands on my dogs and do some of the things I've seen, it would be a race between who would get to his throat first me or my dog, lol.* But the work that he does with the owners, just trying to get them to see some common sense, I think that is where he has value and based on his personality and delivery is actually able to get through to some owners that most of us probably wouldn't have the patience to deal with.
> 
> *I don't call what he does "training" because he's basically coaching/counseling owners on the basics of proper dog ownership*. If someone needs to spend $6K to get the basics I guess that's their prerogative, I know some new parents that will spend $35 per cloth diaper on their first newborn. As far as I know he hasn't trained dogs to do much of anything...


 
*Are your dogs "red zone" cases?* Probably wouldn't need to "touch" your dog, i suspect. 

But if he did, then my $$$ would be on Mr. Milan vs your dogs (or you for that matter!) Heh! Heh! 

Would it be better for Mr. Milan to just tell desperate owners "Euthanize" the dog rather than use some strict correction based approach to change the dogs attitude? That is, should he act like a number of "no punishment" trainers that I have met that throw up their hands if a dog is either people or dog aggressive?

You, unlike so many folks on this forum, do seem to "get" Mr. Milan's approach. HE IS NOT A DOG TRAINER! He says that on his show.


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

Jack's Dad said:


> ...So if you have the bucks you can go to anyone you want.
> 
> I don't understand why Cesar bothers people so much. If you don't like his approach don't pay any attention to what he does. Go find a trainer you like.
> 
> ...


This is my point to a "T". But the aggression forum DOES exist & people DO give advice. I guess our problem wasn't good enough to warrant anything but a "go elsewhere" attitude. Thank goodness, we did not interpret that as the end-all of this dog.

Maybe we could start a thread that actually discusses his methods? Where the CM-haters have the option to IGNORE THE THREAD? I, for one, would like to learn more - beFORE I badger the man.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Would it be better for Mr. Milan to just tell desperate owners "Euthanize" the dog rather than use some strict correction based approach to change the dogs attitude? That is, should he act like a number of "no punishment" trainers that I have met that throw up their hands if a dog is either people or dog aggressive?


This is laughable.

Who "throws up their hands" over people or dog aggressive dogs? Go watch Youtube when they work with dogs like this using clickers, if you truly think that. 

Also - why would anyone thing getting _more_ aggressive/punishing an aggressive dog will fix it? 

Why are dogs so messed up in the 1st place? If through human error it's usually due to the owners physically correcting the dog, and making issues even worse, or it's genetic. 
One can be undone through positive methods, the other - not a lot can fix.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> *Are your dogs "red zone" cases?* Probably wouldn't need to "touch" your dog, i suspect.


Well if the stranger "pssst psst"-ing and jabbing at my dogs' necks or alpha rolling them on the ground soliciting a negative reaction constitutes Red Zone then yes, yes he is, lol.

As for the no punishment, positive only folks....hey I'd like to sit down and have a drink and talk dogs with CM, but those folks, no thanks!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

The "alpha" theory may be discredited by some (until they happen to have a dog who actually believes and follows it!).

I actually happen to have such a dog that is a firm advocate of the theory! And was a real PITA in some ways (but a great dog in all other ways) until we found a trainer/behaviorist who had had experience with such dogs and we had a very educational session with my dog mostly about his very serious DA toward a particular other dog in our OB group.

Was he perfect after that, heck no; but there was a BIG difference as he actually would listen and pay much more attention when we talked!

I was at fault obviously because it had been a few years since we had had a dog and I also was undergoing a bunch of medical issues (not an excuse but just a reason) and also listened to some trainers in our local OB circle who had never dealt with such a stobborn bull headed dominant doggy personality and thay had no clue how to best handle such a dog.

So until one has experienced such a dog, it is hard to imagine trying to train one.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Liesje said:


> Well if the stranger "pssst psst"-ing and jabbing at my dogs' necks or alpha rolling them on the ground soliciting a negative reaction constitutes Red Zone then yes, yes he is, lol.
> 
> As for the no punishment, positive only folks....hey I'd like to sit down and have a drink and talk dogs with CM, but those folks, no thanks!


 
Heh! Heh! Heh!

My dog would probably think CM was playing rough with him and try to jump on him! He would take a finger poke and a "PPSSTT" as an invitation for fun time!


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Olivers mama said:


> This is my point to a "T". But the aggression forum DOES exist & people DO give advice. I guess our problem wasn't good enough to warrant anything but a "go elsewhere" attitude. Thank goodness, we did not interpret that as the end-all of this dog.
> 
> Maybe we could start a thread that actually discusses his methods? Where the CM-haters have the option to IGNORE THE THREAD? I, for one, would like to learn more - beFORE I badger the man.


No. I couldn't have a thread about a question I had specific to religion for Christians only. This is an internet forum, and the non-Christians had to have their say on my question. No biggie, but if you start a thread on CM, the people that do not like him or do not like his methods have a right to discuss it on the thread. What YOU can do is IGNORE them. 

And isn't that LIFE really? You can only change your behavior in how you respond to things, you really can't change everyone else's behavior to suit what you want or need. 

Or you can set up your own forum and ban everyone who does respond positively whenever someone says something about Cesar.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> What's amazing is...he doesn't bother me worse than the dingbats on Craigslist, some of whom I know, who couldn't train their way out of a paperbag if they tried, or the ones I've been told about who recommended squirting a dog with water (and charged $$ for that) when it was fear aggressive, OH the list goes on.
> 
> But then there's these threads and we go, "Oh, yeah whatever, he doesn't walk on water" and people freak out. The reason these explode is that so many are so upset to hear anything remotely...not even bad, but even neutral about him!
> 
> ...


Ok...see I can respect this post. It is well thought out, you stated your opinion w/o assuming anything. Your last one, about how his method will get you bitten and ect...you're assuming. I know you don't like his methods, but to stretch it that far and say that his method is hairbrained and if you use it you will get injured...that's all assumptions. Assumptions based off of your great dislike for him (which you just explained in a very respectable manner) and I'm guessing a lot of experience with people that tried to train the "Cesar way" and failed.

Also wanted to add, I've never heard or seen Cesar mention anything about an alpha roll. I've never seen him do one, speak of doing one, recommend doing one, ect.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

The Jindo episode I can think of off hand. He might have his own fancy word for it put putting a dog in a muzzle and slip collar and repeatedly pushing him down to the ground...same thing to me.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

No no, I beg to differ.
When you witness people throwing dogs over on their backs as CM recommends and the dog reaches up into said person's face to bite, yes, you can safely conclude one will be bitten when they meet up with the right dog and try to "roll" it. It seems not long ago CM himself was bitten for smacking a dog in the face?

And...when you also realize after taking not one but two dogs from a particular home (this is just one instance) that is extremely aggressive due to physical corrections, you can conclude that being violent with certain dogs will make them more aggressive.

Thing is...what cod and others like him can't fathom and what blows their mind is...I see physical corrections as being similar to e-collars. Used correctly, they are fine wonderful tools.
The "general public", without learning how to correct or use an e-collar, will often abuse such tools. We've seen even recently in another thread where such physical corrections escalated a dog's behavior until this owner is likely going to have to give the dog up.

So. Where does that leave us? US being, rescuers, rehabbers, etc.? 
Well, I speak for myself - "positive only" because this dog (that is, many of them that come our way) is messed up enough now from all the mishandling (read: physical corrections, hitting, rolling, smacking, whatever) in it's past.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

whewwww....you people sure do get all worked up over one little man. LOL


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## Jack's Dad (Jun 7, 2011)

Shelters and rescues were full a long time before Cesar ever set foot in the United States. Find somebody else to blame.

I watched probably the first four seasons and read one of his books and anyone who thinks he spends most of the time alpha rolling, slamming dogs around and using compulsion most of the time is simply wrong.

He is all about stability in the dogs and the owners. Calm assertiveness, lots of exercise and rules, boundaries and limitations. Almost like his own version of NILF.

Msevette, I think you give good advice at times but what you believe is just that. Everyone who doesn't believe the way you do is not "wrong" necessarily. 

When it comes to training everybody is an authority but in truth it's all just a bunch of different opinions that we all get to pick from.

Just like food, health issue or almost anything else dog related.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

> Find somebody else to blame.


You misread my entire post.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

Jack's Dad said:


> He is all about stability in the dogs and the owners. Calm assertiveness, lots of exercise and rules, boundaries and limitations. Almost like his own version of NILF.


And this is the part that I like (though I think it's odd how he tends to get credit for these ideas and his little mantras). I like the parts where he's not touching the dog.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> I like the parts where he's not touching the dog.


:thumbup:

Kinda off topic...but IIRC he talks about bringing an "energy" to the situation, and I was watching a movie last night called Grizzly Man. 
He spoke the exact same way about bringing an "energy" to situations, being a "presence". 
The guy then got eaten by the Grizzlies he was studying


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Ok...then maybe my definition of alpha roll is different than yours. I've never seen him do one. I've seen him put dogs on their sides and make them lay there...make them accept the fact that if a human tells you to do something, you do it, and its much easier to get a dog to calm down in the down position than any other position. We also all do this to our dogs...I did this to my dog when he was a puppy...he had to accept handling and accept laying in the positions I needed him to (either for nail trimming or a vet). It wasn't an alpha roll...it was me training my dog that nothing bad will happen as long as you stay calm and trust me.

Cesar never tells anyone to "alpha roll" a strange dog. If you watch his show, decide you want to help a buddy out and then "alpha roll" his dog...that's your stupidity, and if you want to blame Cesar for that after the dog bites/attacks you, that's your higher level of stupidity lol.

BTW...picking out the one episode in which he gets bitten out of the hundreds that he has, doesn't make your assumption of everyone that uses his method will get bit any less rediculous. He gets bit once and you throw it out of proportion saying everyone that uses his method is going to get bit.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

To me an apha roll is using force to put the dog on the ground lying down to get it to submit. That's what I saw, he did it several times over for several minutes. The dog was not commanded to lie down and then corrected when he didn't obey, he was muzzled and then pushed down repeatedly until he stopped fighting. I don't know if it really helped, obviously the dog gave up eventually in that moment but I just read that those owners don't own the dog anymore. I don't think CM got bit during that episode, the dog was muzzled. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do but I call it what it is, if that's not an alpha roll then I don't know what is...


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

That's why I said...like e-collars, when you abuse a physical correction (and think you are using it correctly) you can do a lot of damage to the dog physically and mentally, and even yourself 
Since CM is all about the alpha, perhaps people are taking it to the next level. Don't ever underestimate people's stupidity :thumbup:

What'd be awesome is if he got on there and espoused something entirely different other than the outdated alpha stuff


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Jax08 said:


> whewwww....you people sure do get all worked up over one little man. LOL


What does his size have to do with anything?

if anyone ever used the term "little woman" on this forum, can't you see the firestorm that would unleash?

Wouldn't be pretty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

martemchik said:


> Ok...then maybe my definition of alpha roll is different than yours. I've never seen him do one. I've seen him put dogs on their sides and make them lay there...make them accept the fact that if a human tells you to do something, you do it, and its much easier to get a dog to calm down in the down position than any other position. We also all do this to our dogs...I did this to my dog when he was a puppy...he had to accept handling and accept laying in the positions I needed him to (either for nail trimming or a vet). It wasn't an alpha roll...it was me training my dog that nothing bad will happen as long as you stay calm and trust me.
> 
> Cesar never tells anyone to "alpha roll" a strange dog. If you watch his show, decide you want to help a buddy out and then "alpha roll" his dog...that's your stupidity, and if you want to blame Cesar for that after the dog bites/attacks you, that's your higher level of stupidity lol.
> 
> BTW...picking out the one episode in which he gets bitten out of the hundreds that he has, doesn't make your assumption of everyone that uses his method will get bit any less rediculous. He gets bit once and you throw it out of proportion saying everyone that uses his method is going to get bit.


Every single pro trainer that I have ever known has gotten bitten a number of times. I guess that must mean that I have only met bad trainers, according to some folks on tis forum. Or maybe it means that they are nasty to dogs and "abuse" them?


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

Liesje said:


> And this is the part that I like (though I think it's odd how he tends to get credit for these ideas and his little mantras). I like the parts where he's not touching the dog.


I don't because in those parts he's still on about alpha and wolf packs and keeps misinterpreting dog body language. Not that he doesn't have some good points such as that dogs need exercise and rules, and that type of thing, his basic ideas like that can be good, but of course none of that is new info, I would hope any trainer would tell people those basics but if he gets people to exercise their dogs who were before then that is good.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Chicagocanine said:


> I don't because in those parts he's still on about alpha and wolf packs and keeps misinterpreting dog body language. Not that he doesn't have some good points such as that dogs need exercise and rules, and that type of thing, his basic ideas like that can be good, but of course *none of that is new info,* I would hope any trainer would tell people those basics but if he gets people to exercise their dogs who were before then that is good.


 
How much about dog training or behavior is new?


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## huntergreen (Jun 28, 2012)

note to self: do not bring up cm, ever.


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## gsdraven (Jul 8, 2009)

Olivers mama said:


> I'll take it 1 step further & ask how many of you would've kept this dog we have?


I'll admit, I'm not familiar with your story, only know from the comments you make but never saw your original threads asking for help. But the answer to your questions above is... Me. 

My youngest dog, Holly, is a biter. She'd biten several people by the age of 6 months including 2 so called "professional trainers". She was hung on a prong and bounced off every surface of a car by a SchH trainer at 5 months old when she bit him. And then I was called and asked to foster this dog that no one could touch. I did. She's never bitten me but she sure did test me. 

Over a year later, she's good with most people, still dog reactive but it's all fear and she gets along with my two (which took over a month to do while living in the same house) and I choose not to push her with other dogs. We still foster and board dogs regularly and keep her managed.

Our next challenge is she HATES kids and we have a baby on the way but we will work through that too. We're already working with her on it at home. All done without the help of celebrity trainers. I do read and study trainers I align with, study canine cognition and training theory on my own. I don't use force or corrective collars. In fact, putting one on Holly would not go well.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> You, unlike so many folks on this forum, do seem to "get" Mr. Milan's approach. HE IS NOT A DOG TRAINER! He says that on his show.


_Everybody_ "gets" his approach.


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## Jax08 (Feb 13, 2009)

codmaster said:


> What does his size have to do with anything?
> 
> if anyone ever used the term "little woman" on this forum, can't you see the firestorm that would unleash?
> 
> Wouldn't be pretty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You are defensive and argumentative over everything, aren't you? Jane makes a joke about "virginia" so you attack her. I make a joke so you attack me. I wasn't thinking about his size when I said that. I was just thinking "it's only one man" and everyone is in an uproar. So attack away. I think these threads are ridiculous. Nobody attacked CM originally...they just said they wouldn't pay that much to go to his seminar and listed others that they would see for less money. And then the CM groupies come along carrying their torches and pitchforks, screaming "Burn the Witch!" and then it all fell apart from the insults being thrown at the other members of the board. You all really need to take a break, come back in two weeks without the attitude and read this thread again. It's utterly ridiculous.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Jax08 said:


> You are defensive and argumentative over everything, aren't you? Jane makes a joke about "virginia" so you attack her. I make a joke so you attack me. I wasn't thinking about his size when I said that. I was just thinking "it's only one man" and everyone is in an uproar. So attack away. I think these threads are ridiculous. Nobody attacked CM originally...they just said they wouldn't pay that much to go to his seminar and listed others that they would see for less money. *And then the CM groupies come along carrying their torches and pitchforks,* screaming "Burn the Witch!" and then it all fell apart from the insults being thrown at the other members of the board. You all really need to take a break, come back in two weeks without the attitude and read this thread again. *It's utterly ridiculous.*


That's what I see...people get worked up if you even just said "Oh I wouldn't waste the money". 
And you're a "hater" if you simply say "no use for him"...amazing.

It's a style of training I can never ever get behind, it's a philosophy I cannot get behind.
It's old-style training and things have progressed, thank God.

And for those stuck in alphadom and wolf-pack theories, that's fine. I know I'm not a wolf, nor a dog, and I refuse to behave like one, or try to, because dogs know we walk on 2 legs while they walk on 4.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

Man if I could...I'd "psht" poke all of you!!!! :nono:


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Jax08 said:


> whewwww....you people sure do get all worked up over one little man. LOL


 


I used to enjoy watching his show on natgeo, I must admit. I had to put a stop to it because my fiance' would watch with me and started to sound like a leaky tire. Everytime I turned around he was 'psst pssting' the dogs who bounced around thinking 'psst' was the new command for more pandemonium.


This is why I train using German commands and he can 'psst psst' all he wants, it's funny watching him.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Jack's Dad said:


> Shelters and rescues were full a long time before Cesar ever set foot in the United States. Find somebody else to blame.
> 
> I watched probably the first four seasons and read one of his books and anyone who thinks he spends most of the time alpha rolling, slamming dogs around and using compulsion most of the time is simply wrong.
> 
> ...


Agree with this. I also think he has done a lot to help Pit Bulls and encourage rescue. I don't use all his methods, but have never had a dog that needed them. I don't understand why he polarizes people so much. I wouldn't spend 6000 even if I had it to go to a seminar with him, but if people want to it is their business. I prefer Michael Ellis and would love to attend one of his seminars one day and his partner Lisa Maze, really helped me with my dog but to each his own.


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## jae (Jul 17, 2012)

Just to spite this thread and most of these arguments, I really want to purchase and attend the CM lessons.


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## Anthony8858 (Sep 18, 2011)

Gwenhwyfair said:


> I used to enjoy watching his show on natgeo, I must admit. I had to put a stop to it because my fiance' would watch with me and started to sound like a leaky tire. Everytime I turned around he was 'psst pssting' the dogs who bounced around thinking 'psst' was the new command for more pandemonium.
> 
> 
> This is why I train using German commands and he can 'psst psst' all he wants, it's funny watching him.


I recall seeing someone (in a dog park)attempting to calm their over rambunctious dog with non stop sshhhts . Every time he did one, the dog became even more agitated. 
A few seconds later, the dog redirected his frustration on another nearby dog.

I don't know about others, but I've been to puppy class 1-3,, have over 2k posts on this forum, and I still don't know what I'm doing. 

My whole point of this thread was not in any way intended to insult CM, it was more of a question of whether or not one can TRULY learn how to handle their dogs in a week. 
My own personal experience tells me NO. 
OTOH, if CM wants to sensationalize his celebrity status, and charge 6k for a first hand experience, that's his prerogative. However, IMO it contradicts the CM we've all grown to love. . . 


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

huntergreen said:


> note to self: do not bring up cm, ever.


 
Or VS either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Heh! Heh!


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

I don't think it contradicts him at all. And he caters to the American pet owner. One that sees a problem and wants it fixed tomorrow. How many people have come onto this forum asking for a quick fix for the DA, HA, or any other type of aggressive dog. They want there to be a magical training technique that within days will heal their dog and they'll be able to go off leash to the dog park like all their friends do. Or to take it away from aggression, the "my 4 month old puppy won't come to me outside, how do I work on his recall?"

I've only seen Cesar recommend a training regimen to a few dogs. Dogs who were clearly under trained and needed a job. One of these was a GSD. He does tell the owners how to fix things, make sure you work on it daily, ect. But he's not really there on a consistent basis to work with them and their dog.

I think to all of us a lot of his solutions are not what we would go with as our first, second, or third choice. We all understand that the way to solve problems is to work with a dog for weeks, months, or even years. But the public at large doesn't want that. They want their dog to be fixed within an 8 week session of training classes at petco, or a one time visit by a $100 an hour behaviorist. Tell you the truth, I feel like to many people its cost/benefit. Cheaper to dump problem dog and adopt a new dog without said problems. Or the...I've paid $100 for this dog, why would I spend $1000 trying to fix its issue?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

True. It is just like Americans to screw up their dogs, then look for a quick fix, if none is to be found, out with the dog.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> True. It is just like *Americans *to screw up their dogs, then look for a quick fix, if none is to be found, out with the dog.


A stereotype? Thank goodness that the Slobovians don't expect any quick fixes for their dog training problems.


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Anthony8858 said:


> I recall seeing someone (in a dog park)attempting to calm their over rambunctious dog with non stop sshhhts . Every time he did one, the dog became even more agitated.


Non stop sshhhts are just bad in any environment.


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## martemchik (Nov 23, 2010)

selzer said:


> Non stop sshhhts are just bad in any environment.


Awesome...just awesome...:rofl::wild::rofl:


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## GoSailGo (Sep 15, 2012)

6 grand is cheap compared to Don Sullivan's 6 week course...50 grand! And I watched his video...he just seems MEAN to the dogs. 50 GRAND!!!  (I included the link for his course below.)

The Perfect Dog


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

I dunno. The 50 grand might be a better deal. You get Don and his team for six, six day weeks, at your home location. So, I take it you don't have to buy air-fair and hotel rooms, etc. And for you all, taking one or even two dogs on a trip for a week would be cheaper, but if I could get a team of dog experts at my home willing to work with me and all my dogs, that would actually be cheaper. 

But I don't have 6k or 50k and don't need it anyhow. 

I think I would get more out of a six week course than I would out of a week, where the celeb is only doing part of it, and then is probably got a bunch of people enlisted. I mean you get a cheaper rate taking group classes in training or group therapy (which you probably need if you would consider either) than you pay for individual sessions.


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## ShatteringGlass (Jun 1, 2006)

this thread is annoying.

Seriously, who cares what someone charges for their services?


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## Dotty (Mar 19, 2012)

This is the only Accredited School for Dog Trainers in Canada
I don't know much about these schools, but this is 3 months, 5 days a week.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

That pshhting thing is verbal correction followed with a little poke, at least as I see it, it's sort of like a 'no' followed by a correction with a pinch collar. My finace' just does the phssting thing. Which replaced the 'HEY knock it off' verbal 'correction' thing he had going previously. LOL! 

It actually works with our more sensitive little aussie but not the GSDs.

Free market principles at work here. No one is being forced to pay/attend so IMHO C'est la vie..

Dreaming now....if I had 6K to spend on something dog related like this.._my choice_..I'd be heading to Germany/Europe. *sigh* 

What with a friend of mine with a sick dog, having been laid off twice and possibly now losing her house...that $6K would make a world of difference for her in just a surviving kind of way. 

*C'est la vie.....*




Anthony8858 said:


> I recall seeing someone (in a dog park)attempting to calm their over rambunctious dog with non stop sshhhts . Every time he did one, the dog became even more agitated.
> A few seconds later, the dog redirected his frustration on another nearby dog.
> 
> I don't know about others, but I've been to puppy class 1-3,, have over 2k posts on this forum, and I still don't know what I'm doing.
> ...


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

codmaster said:


> Or VS either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> Heh! Heh!


Victoria's Secret?


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

ShatteringGlass said:


> this thread is annoying.
> 
> Seriously, who cares what someone charges for their services?


You're right - this thread - ANY thread about CM - always turns out "annoying" because it ALWAYS turns into the pro-CM people -vs- the anti-CM people. No real basis on either side, just a truckload of opinions that really don't mean squat.

If I haven't already - I'll make it more annoying...

Think I'll start a thread to learn more about the man. Haven't seen his show nor any DVDs. Watched VS the first year we had Ziva. Wasted $$ on ME videos - couldn't even GIVE those away, so they're in the city refuse pile somewhere...

But there ARE sub-forums here that discuss aggression, playing the "alpha" role, etc. Today's-dogs-descending-from-wolves mindset... Which makes as much sense to me as saying we should all be walking around eating bananas & swinging from trees.

There's a lot of "theories" out there - some of them even funnier than others. IMO. 

And no shortage of opinions. Gosh - no wonder we had such a hard time finding a decent trainer. And don't get me started on the charlitan "animal behaviorists" in our area.

Think I'll come back as a cat in my next life. No one will tell me what to do. No baths. No silly "sit" "stay" commands. No trainers, famous or otherwise. Just eat, poop & purr.


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## Chicagocanine (Aug 7, 2008)

I've actually made a "tsssst" noise at Bianca before but it had nothing to do with Cesar... I raised my cats from 3 weeks old and bottle fed them, so they seem to think I am a cat and that I am their actual mother, and if they are getting into something and I need to stop them quickly I will sometimes go "tssssst!" which is the closest I can get to hissing, because when "mom" hisses they will listen, and stop whatever they were doing. A few times I wasn't even thinking and I did it to Bianca, I guess I mistook her for a cat. 



Olivers mama said:


> Think I'll come back as a cat in my next life. No one will tell me what to do. No baths. No silly "sit" "stay" commands. No trainers, famous or otherwise. Just eat, poop & purr.


Unless you end up coming back as a show cat, or one of these cats:


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

:thinking: Why can nobody say anything bad about Cesar? Or have mixed opinions about anything under the sun except him?


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## Olivers mama (Oct 13, 2010)

msvette2u said:


> :thinking: Why can nobody say anything bad about Cesar? Or have mixed opinions about anything under the sun except him?


I don't think anyone has said no one can say anything bad about him. What I find hilarious is that those that hate him, seek out threads about him - just so they can say how much he's an arse.

Really? Nothing else to do? What if there are people - like me - who want to learn more about ALL the famous so-called trainers? Why seek out these threads for the sole purpose of putting him down?

Actually, all the CM-haters should be paid for their services. For all they do is awaken the desire to learn about him more. I know very little about him. But I tell you what - you guys have made me want to learn more. So that I can make my OWN informed decision.

Thanks.


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

"Seek out"? Um, it's right here in my "active threads". I didn't have to go far...!
I don't get why he's so sacred nobody can have a differing opinion in JUST threads pertaining to him. 

Or, perhaps we need to make a section just for non-CM fans to talk about how he's washed up and needs to join this century? 
Except the fans would be there, then, talking about how he's the best thing since sliced bread...!


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

Personally, until someone, esp. another trainer, has handled and fixed the type of dogs that CM has evidently done, perhaps they could shut up and "DO" something instead of just talking?

Give the rest of us nephytes something concrete as proof of what they have accomplished and yes, some of their failures (if they can admit it any!) as well.

For example, how many of you real critics would have even dared to take the leash of the Malumute that bit CM and was clearly shown on his TV show?

BTW, NOT ME!

Of course, everyone has a right to their own opinion - but be serious.


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## codmaster (Aug 5, 2009)

msvette2u said:


> "Seek out"? Um, it's right here in my "active threads". I didn't have to go far...!
> I don't get why he's so sacred nobody can have a differing opinion in JUST threads pertaining to him.
> 
> Or, perhaps we need to make a section just for non-CM fans to talk about how he's washed up and needs to join this century?
> Except the fans would be there, then, talking about how he's *the best thing since sliced bread...*!


 
*Certainly since McDonald's biscuits anyway!!!!*


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

Cesar is a good people person  and dog trainer, to what I have seen


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## harmony (May 30, 2002)

My goodness have you ever thought about putting up with the kind of people he does, not a lot will do that anymore.


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## Gwenhwyfair (Jul 27, 2010)

Huh? All trainers put up with the same kind of human beans CM does. 

It's all one big fluffy strawman.

No matter which trainer a person goes to if they are not going to invest the time, energy, practice and consistency they will not have good results.

Micheal Ellis, Victoria Stillwell, Ceasar.....cannot change attitudes.

I was going to a weekly OB class that was based on Michael Ellis, I and a few other people were really commited and showed up every week, practiced during the week and got good results. Other people showed up, saw our dogs but didn't want to put in the practice, the work, to get results. The tendancy was to blame the trainer or the 'method' when in fact the problem was they wanted results but didn't want to do the work.

You know that's not something any trainer can 'fix' with his clients, even if they have $6k to spend on training. I've come to the conclusion that many people just like to talk about training....they just aren't really that invested in getting real results through practice and work. 




harmony said:


> My goodness have you ever thought about putting up with the kind of people he does, not a lot will do that anymore.


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

codmaster said:


> Personally, until someone, esp. another trainer, has handled and fixed the type of dogs that CM has evidently done, perhaps they could shut up and "DO" something instead of just talking?


The trainer I used to train under (for about three years, she is no longer doing classes because of family health reasons) has worked with tons of these dogs, I can't even count. *Most* of the dogs she works with are messed up in some way (skittish, aggressive, out of control, have weird obsessions or neurotic tendencies). I worked with her because I used to have such a dog (she is now at the bridge). She's a great trainer and only $35/hr! She doesn't need to be on TV to get clients, plenty of people locally took her classes or worked with her privately and she also used to give really cheap classes at a community center since so many pet owners won't do any training because of cost. How do you know there aren't brilliant trainers out there just because they ARE doing something and aren't just talking about it on TV?


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## msvette2u (Mar 20, 2006)

Liesje said:


> The trainer I used to train under (for about three years, she is no longer doing classes because of family health reasons) has worked with tons of these dogs, I can't even count. *Most* of the dogs she works with are messed up in some way (skittish, aggressive, out of control, have weird obsessions or neurotic tendencies). I worked with her because I used to have such a dog (she is now at the bridge). She's a great trainer and only $35/hr! She doesn't need to be on TV to get clients, plenty of people locally took her classes or worked with her privately and she also used to give really cheap classes at a community center since so many pet owners won't do any training because of cost. How do you know there aren't brilliant trainers out there just because they ARE doing something and aren't just talking about it on TV?


Heh I missed that (what cod said) as I tend to ignore most his posts, especially the BOLDED/huge font/blaring colored posts 

But - of all the things to say!!

The outright disses to me when I claim that I am "not a trainer" (I'm not) yet I've rehabbed some very nasty dogs, when they come here and are so reactive they want to bite immediately, it's their first response to everything. 

I've donned leather gloves and petted dogs so they realize not every hand coming towards them is going to _hit_ them. They realize it eventually! 
Slowly built their trust back up to the point where they can be handled safely by others. The ones that never did become able to be handled by others, we made the tough call to put to sleep. I've probably put to sleep more dogs than many people have owned their entire lives, always a tough call when it's behavior related but then again, some dogs are broken beyond being fixable, even with extensive rehab. 

How many here can even say _that_ much, or has it been it all two dogs you've owned from puppyhood that you've been working with??

I'm not a trainer, and don't claim to be one but I've fixed more situations with rescues and assisted other dogs still in their homes that their owners wanted to give them up, and wound up keeping, when they realized how easily workable situations with their dogs are! 

So to sit around saying we just sit around "just talking" is BS. In "downtime" between here in the rescue and assisting others (to keep their pets), I find time to talk about what I've found that works and for that I am dissed. And then lectured because I ought to realize that CM "knows so much" about dogs, and walks on water in _his_ downtime. 
Lovely


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## GregK (Sep 4, 2006)

Olivers mama said:


> Anthony8858,
> 
> I notice none of you have "volunteered" your wondrous expertise - either for free or for $200/hr. I rest my case.


Huh?? What kinda problems are you having???


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

GregK said:


> Huh?? What kinda problems are you having???


I found these previous threads about Ziva, and actually several people posting here DID offer suggestions: 

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/introductions-welcome-mat/144788-hello-crazy-california.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/how-do-i-teach-my-dog/145509-rescue-adoptee-marking-house.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/training-theory-methods/146028-constant-jumping-up.html

http://www.germanshepherds.com/foru...8579-since-she-wont-stop-eating-her-poop.html

I did a quick scan and don't see anything about a problem with biting in any of the previous threads, and I don't recall ever reading about biting issues either, until recently. 

Most of us here are NOT dog trainers though, and even those that are, aren't going to advise someone about a serious biting problem over the internet beyond suggesting they find a good trainer or behaviorist.


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## Cassidy's Mom (Mar 30, 2003)

Our first real trainer, with Cassidy in 2000, specializes in aggression: About Lisa Clifton-Bumpass : About A Step Beyond, LLC

Also - fear, phobias, and anxiety, which is often the root cause of the "aggression" Cesar deals with on his show, including the infamous Holly. When we met her she was doing group classes at various places, but now has her own private training business. One of her dogs at the time was a pit bull that had been surrendered for biting a child in the face. Lisa rehabilitated and adopted him. 



> Additionally, Pawsitive Steps has been employed as consultant for various local shelters, rescue groups, and humane organizations who call on her *to review particularly difficult behavior cases.* Lisa works with pet owners as well as specialists in confirmation, flyball, obedience, and search and rescue handlers, schutzhund, and tracking competitors to solve training and problem behavior issues.
> 
> *In her private practice, Lisa focuses exclusively on dogs with aggression, fear, phobia, and anxiety issues.* Additionally, A Step Beyond consults with professional trainers, rescue groups, shelters and animal management and behavior consultants. *She is also considered an expert in the evaluation and treatment of animal behavior problems and testified as an expert witness in a court case involving dog aggression*, canine behavior and training methodology.


Lisa is a Certified member of the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants and the International Institute for Applied Companion Animal Behavior, a Certified Dog Behavior Counselor (CDBC), International Association of Animal Behavior Counselors, and the 2005 APDT Dog Trainer of the Year.

So yeah, there are other trainers who do what Cesar does, with the same kind of dogs that he works with.


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## Debbieg (Jun 7, 2009)

Cesar is a bargain! This guy, called "the dogfather" charges "50,000!

The Perfect Dog


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## selzer (May 7, 2005)

Debbieg said:


> Cesar is a bargain! This guy, called "the dogfather" charges "50,000!
> 
> The Perfect Dog



You are comparing apples to oranges. One seminar is 5 days, and you are one of however many they can cram in the room, and not sure how much is actually with the celeb. The other is 36 days, they come to you, and they work with you, not a room full of people. So you can't really say that the Cesar seminar is a bargain, it really depends on what you want to accomplish. 

I don't think I would go to either even if I had the money.


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## Packen (Sep 14, 2008)

I have huge respect for the man. He has brains, balls and doggy knowledge  Not to mention he is a self made multi millionaire following his passion. Hats off to Da Whisperer.


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## sitstay (Jan 20, 2003)

selzer said:


> I think it is because so many people are looking for a quick and easy fix for their dog. They watch a 30 minute episode and Cesar makes it look pretty easy. They will then apply it to their dog, and if it works, they are instant fans. They had success and didn't have to spend anything on it. If it backfires, they will go to a local trainer and insist that what they are doing is right because they saw Cesar do it. Great. Or they will tell you how to train your dog, what you are doing wrong, family members are suddenly dog training experts, and they don't even own a dog. Yay! Perfect strangers will Pssst! your dog, or tell you you better alpha roll that dog or it is going to be a huge problem. Really?


But this happens regardless of who someone may or may not have seen on TV. I have no dog in this fight, so to speak. I think CM has done a good thing in that he has really brought to the forefront the concept that a dog is a dog and has certain needs because of that. Telling owners that they need to exercise a lot more is a great thing, because most dogs don't get enough of it.

With the other stuff, the little noises and the nudges? The flooding as a way to address phobias and fears? The alpha rolls? There are just as many people who found an old copy of the New Skeete book who are out there doing the exact same thing. Just as there are a ton of people out there who have attended a couple of classes of a purely positive trainer and are now using a method they completely misunderstood.

An idiot is going to be an idiot. Once you have been around dogs long enough, that becomes really clear. I have said it before here, and I'll say it again. An idiot can screw up a dog with a martingale and a bag of treats. 

Once you get into the TV stuff? That isn't real. The people and dogs they feature are purposefully chosen to be as dramatic as possible. And then it is edited to be even more dramatic. It is reality TV, and I don't see anyone claiming that other reality TV shows are indicative of real life. Why should dog behavior shows be any different?

CM is what he is. Not the best. Not the worst. He isn't the devil. He isn't a trainer. He isn't an educated behaviorist, like Patricia McConnell. He is a lay person behaviorist who has been repackaged to suit the medium he has found his niche in: TV.

If we spent half as much time training our dogs as we did arguing, our dogs sure would be better off.
Sheilah


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## Liesje (Mar 4, 2007)

sit said:


> CM is what he is. Not the best. Not the worst. He isn't the devil. He isn't a trainer. He isn't an educated behaviorist, like Patricia McConnell. He is a lay person behaviorist who has been repackaged to suit the medium he has found his niche in: TV.


:thumbup:


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