# Aggressive by Nature?



## cwang238 (Oct 23, 2017)

Hi,

I need some advice with my GSD. I don't know his full history as we've taken him on from a family friend. I believe he was a rescue. He is 8 years old and has been with my wife and I for 3 years now in our house. We move him in the yard or keep him in the house, but more recently keep him inside. 

For the most part he is friendly. I have friends over and he has no problems with aggression. It's my fault as we haven't properly socialized him as we got him a bit older and frankly I'm scared to take him to the dog park. When we're on walks he's fine, sometimes gets excited by other dogs. 

Recently one of this daughters (he's had a couple of litters and not during our time with him) needed a place to stay so we've taken her on. 

However my GSD is displaying a lot of aggression towards her. I'm trying to my best to get his behavior corrected, but am running out of ideas quick. We met at a neutral dog park and walked around fine. Since then I take them on walks am I'm able to get them to walk with both leashes on 1 hand without confrontation, but I have to keep walking. My dog seems to be aggressive when I stop and let them sniff each other. 

This morning after our walk I got back and decided to let them both inside the house and in the yard with their leashes on. I walked them back and forth with no real confrontation. On the way out of the house I saw my dog's signature bow of this head and then he lept towards our new dog and nipped at her. I quickly separated them. I brought my GSD back inside and quickly got him down to a submissive position and told him NO firmly. 

Am I doing this wrong? Is there an alternative way to socialize? I'm going to pick up a muzzle on the way home as I'm nervous about him harming our new dog.


----------



## Nigel (Jul 10, 2012)

You should look for trainers in your area with gsd experience. A trainer can witness first hand what's going on between your two dogs and help you find solutions much more accurately than folks on a forum.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cwang238 said:


> ...However my GSD is displaying a lot of aggression towards her. I'm trying to my best to get his behavior corrected, but am running out of ideas quick. We met at a neutral dog park and walked around fine. Since then I take them on walks am I'm able to get them to walk with both leashes on 1 hand without confrontation, but I have to keep walking. My dog seems to be aggressive when I stop and let them sniff each other.
> 
> This morning after our walk I got back and decided to let them both inside the house and in the yard with their leashes on. I walked them back and forth with no real confrontation. On the way out of the house I saw my dog's signature bow of this head and then he lept towards our new dog and nipped at her. I quickly separated them. I brought my GSD back inside and quickly got him down to a submissive position and told him NO firmly.
> 
> Am I doing this wrong? Is there an alternative way to socialize? I'm going to pick up a muzzle on the way home as I'm nervous about him harming our new dog.


Just my opinion, but the best course of action here would be to let the 2 dogs work it out! It doesn't sound to me like your boy is being aggressive, he's just letting the youngster know who's boss. You can't really correct that, it's how dogs communicate with each other. If you continue to intervene though, he could become frustrated and become aggressive...


----------



## cwang238 (Oct 23, 2017)

tim_s_adams said:


> Just my opinion, but the best course of action here would be to let the 2 dogs work it out! It doesn't sound to me like your boy is being aggressive, he's just letting the youngster know who's boss. You can't really correct that, it's how dogs communicate with each other. If you continue to intervene though, he could become frustrated and become aggressive...


That's what my brother in law says too. But here's my observation. The way my GSD is lashing out is violent. If he was playful and it was nudging, etc. it would be fine, but he is outright trying to bite our new GSD. She's already yelping and he nipped at her multiple times while I was pulling him back. I wouldn't call this playful and I would feel really responsible and sad if I had to take her to the vet because he snapped too hard. I checked her this morning and she wasn't bleeding, no blood on my GSD either, but it was not as I see a playful nip, but an aggressive one.

Thanks for the advice so far. I think I'm going to pick up a muzzle and let them work it out tonight while not on leash and see how that works.


----------



## dogbyte (Apr 5, 2002)

I would go to Leerburg.com and read and watch all their free info on introducing dogs and pack structure. They have bred and owned GSDs and mals as well as other breeds for decades.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

cwang238 said:


> That's what my brother in law says too. But here's my observation. The way my GSD is lashing out is violent. If he was playful and it was nudging, etc. it would be fine, but he is outright trying to bite our new GSD. She's already yelping and he nipped at her multiple times while I was pulling him back. I wouldn't call this playful and I would feel really responsible and sad if I had to take her to the vet because he snapped too hard. I checked her this morning and she wasn't bleeding, no blood on my GSD either, but it was not as I see a playful nip, but an aggressive one.
> 
> Thanks for the advice so far. I think I'm going to pick up a muzzle and let them work it out tonight while not on leash and see how that works.


I did not suggest he'd playfully put her in her place > But it's not likely he'll seriously injure a female.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I'd take your time and would NOT allow them to work it out- a male "should" not hurt a female, but there are certainly exceptions to that rule. A shepherd could do some real damage and breaking up a fight is dangerous for you as well. 

I'd only take leash walks and keep them separated in the house and yard- I'd recommend using an x-pen in the house so they can see each other but not actually hurt each other (this assuming he's not so worked up he'd knock down the x-pen in a rage to get at her). 

Finding a trainer is also a good suggestion. And remember, every time your male gets to practice attacking the female, it becomes more ingrained in his mind as a behavior. Don't let him repeat this. Also, it's not fair to the female to have her in fear of the male- she's in a new home and that's probably stressful enough. She should feel safe in her home. 

I think it will work out just fine in the long run - but give everyone time to get used to each other and then slowly work toward freedom in the house and yard.


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

Oh, one more thing. I re-read the post about yanking the male back as he was biting the female- this is dangerous. I understand why you did it as you had no choice, but this is why I recommend a very slow introduction ideally with one handler for each dog. When you grab the collar of a dog who is "in the zone" you actually increase his drive to bite and do damage, where he might have far better bite inhibition if he were not restricted by his collar. This is a fairly common way to build drive in protection work.


----------



## GypsyGhost (Dec 29, 2014)

Muskeg said:


> I'd take your time and would NOT allow them to work it out- a male "should" not hurt a female, but there are certainly exceptions to that rule. A shepherd could do some real damage and breaking up a fight is dangerous for you as well.
> 
> I'd only take leash walks and keep them separated in the house and yard- I'd recommend using an x-pen in the house so they can see each other but not actually hurt each other (this assuming he's not so worked up he'd knock down the x-pen in a rage to get at her).
> 
> ...


^^^THIS. All of this.


----------



## tim_s_adams (Aug 9, 2017)

You can postpone the inevitable, but dogs are pack animals and ultimately a hierarchy WILL be established. The OP said that these 2 were fine with each other at the dog park, and that they are able to walk next to one another on leash without conflict. So there is no reason to believe that they would seriously injure one another.

That being said, I've seen this slow introduction process go both ways. It can diminish the inevitable confrontation, but it can also increase it's intensity...it depends on the dog's, and ultimately how the humans involved respond to the situation. Good Luck!


----------



## Muskeg (Jun 15, 2012)

I do think dogs tend to establish a pecking order but it is very mobile. In one scenario dog A is dominate, in another, dog B or C is the "winner". It's really situational. 

Dogs often do better moving forward than stopped- you see dog trainers take advantage of this by correcting stillness or keeping dogs in motion. And the house and yard are the male dog's territory, which makes the situation even more fraught. 

It makes me really nervous to allow dogs to "work it out" I've never found that to be effective. And it could be super dangerous. Not just for the dogs for maybe even more for the people who step in to break it up. 

A skilled trainer can show you how to take charge and stop the aggressive display but it is not necessarily a quick or easy fix and it is potentially so dangerous that ideally the OP should separate these two dog until he can work with a skilled, experienced trainer. 

I would be far more concerned about it not working if this were two males, but regardless, it is a dangerous situation that should not be treated lightly.

OP- any updates?


----------



## Twyla (Sep 18, 2011)

Completely agree with not allowing dogs to work it out. You are inviting a blood bath or worse.

Keep in mind when you pick up the muzzle, muzzles can do a lot of damage as well.

If after trying a xpen and it isn't successful, try a full crate and rotate until a trainer is involved.


----------



## Chip18 (Jan 11, 2014)

cwang238 said:


> That's what my brother in law says too.


You have better instincts than your BIL! If he were that helpful, you'd not be here now. 

The number one rule before adding a second dog is to first, have one well trained dog before adding a second. And currently your first dog seems to be the issue not the rescue?? If you want to make this work??? Your going to have to up your game. If you want to make this work, your current dog's life style is going to need to change. I don't know but I'm gonna guest, that most likely he is not great on leash?? He's not crate trained and he is allowed to free roam i the house??? You can't control a dog indoors ... if you don't know where he is! Crate Training and Training Place, is going to be a good start, outdoors is for play indoors is to chill. 

The fact that they got along fine at the Dog Park, is not that significant. It's not his turf, so whatever. And the muzzle thing, it's a good idea but I can tell you how that's gonna work out without other changes. You'll put the muzzle on and he will appear to be fine around the other dog??? How long will you keep the muzzle on?? A couple hours, a couple of days?? Dog's aren't fools if he is wearing a muzzle, he'll think well, no point in acting a fool ... now??? But sooner or later the muzzle will come off and baring other changes ... it's gonna be.:










All issues stem from home.
:
Rules, Structure and limitations, is what dog number one apparently lacks??? If he was sent off to a two or three week board and train ... he would be Crate Trained that would be step one. Been there done that got the stitches, breaking up "Pack Fights." Between my GSD the new guy and my American Band Dawg. And new guy ... given the opportunity, always started them! Lessons learned there paid off when round two started ... H/A??? But that worked out fine ... another story.

At any rate, do some pondering, clearly it's not working out as expected, thus far?? No harm in bailing if you chose take her back and just say sorry it's not working out. 

But if you want to try and make it work ... then your gonna have to up your game. Welcome aboard and sorry it's a bumpy ride thus far.


----------



## cwang238 (Oct 23, 2017)

Hi,

I wanted to thank everyone for their input so far. I really am learning quickly about my own dog and our new dog. 

First things first. I let them be in the backyard to work it out. I had my dog still on a muzzle but free. They seemed to be okay outside although when they are outside together I make it a point not be outside with them. They were being playful with sniffing and light barking no charging, etc. Both of their tales were wagging and seemed to be fine. Slowly over the week I let them spend more and more time together. Then I brought them back inside. They are fine on their own, but if I come in the room my dog seems to be protective of me or seems to only lash out when I'm around. Lash out for my dog is to aggressively bark once or twice at our new dog. 

I'm comfortable with them together now so my next step is taking the board's suggetions. I think most of the problems are stemming from my dog and I need to train him better. I think I'm going to try crate training him first and get him in line since he seems to have the behavior problems. 

They still playfully engage/challenge each other but its not aggressive or scary. I can take them both on walks together without issues now.


----------

